#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-09
<falktx> hey guys, just wanna to tell that i just released an update for festige (http://festige.sourceforge.net/)
<scott-work> hi falktx 
<falktx> hi scott-work
<falktx> scott-work: i would love to have festige os u.s. 10.010
<TheMuso> /c/c
<scott-work> TheMuso:  i do not understand what you are trying to say
<scott-work> falktx:  that may be difficult because of where we are at in the schedule for maverick (but i'm not an expert on that by any means)
<scott-work> falktx: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickReleaseSchedule
<scott-work> feature freeze is schedule for Aug. 12th
<scott-work> TheMuso:  i meant to tell you that you were recently in one of jono's blog post about assessibility
<falktx> scott-work: were you able to find which package was pushing phonon?
<scott-work> falktx: no, i forgot about it actually because i had several other items with deadlines on friday (i even took off friday from work to accomplish them)
<scott-work> falktx: but TheMuso commented that it was probably a dependency (if i remember correctly)
<scott-work> falktx: would could be totem -> xine -> phonon or something similar
<scott-work> falktx: i think i did try to remove phonon but synaptic only told me that it would need to remove ubuntustudio-desktop package
<falktx> scott-work: hm, isn't there a totem-gstream and totem-xine packages
<falktx> ?
<TheMuso> ScottL: yeah I know about Jono's blog post.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-10
<ScottL> TheMuso, my first proof-of-concept video using blender:  http://fossmusicproject.org/public/video-test-final.mp4
<ScottL> there's two of me...or is that me's ?
<ScottL> TheMuso, the music isn't all the spectacular, just two first takes but they were the vehicle to show something of what blender is capable of
<holstein> ScottL: lol
<holstein> thats great man :)
<TheMuso> ScottL: thanks will take a peak now.
<TheMuso> Nice work.
<ScottL> holstein, TheMuso :  thanks, i could have looked better if i spent more time (and money) on lighting and a better green screen but it gets the point across
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-11
<TheMuso> c
<scott-work> i was interviewed for Ubuntu User about ubuntu studio if anyone is interested:  http://www.ubuntu-user.com/Online/Blogs/Amber-Graner-You-in-Ubuntu/Talking-about-Ubuntu-Studio-with-Scott-Lavender-Project-Lead-for-Ubuntu-Studio
<scott-work> sorry about the long link
<jussi> scott-work: ahh, great that happened
<holstein> nice scott-work :)
 * holstein just checked with AK to make sure it gets in the news for the week
<holstein> that'll be 2 weeks in a row we hit the news-letter
<scott-work> jussi:  yes it did, but just barely...i ended up taking off last friday from work to get it done though...i have too many projects going on at the same time
<scott-work> holstein: thanks
<falktx> just to make you jealous - http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/blur_awesomeness.png
<falktx> ehehehhihi gwahahawa
<scott-work> falktx: but how does that affect your performance when recording?  I would imagine it would
<scott-work> although, yes, it does look cool...as did your patchage screen shot
<falktx> scott-work: well, since i have an intel card...
<falktx> the whole system gets waaaay slowwww
<falktx> so, i have transparency but no blur
<falktx> on kde, alt+shift+f12 stop/starts compositioning
<falktx> ^handy thing
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-12
<falktx> traverso 0.49.2 is out
<falktx> one fix is very important to ubuntu:
<falktx> "Make Traverso work with Qt version >= 4.6.0"
<falktx> it should go to maverick, then backported as soon as possible
 * astraljava gets finally to upgrading his machines to Lucid.
<scott-work> crimsun, during the last studio-devel meeting you mentioned the possibility of a "one click" change of audio server (pulse to jack)...is this still a possiblity?  is anyone working on it?  should we submit a blueprint for UDS-N?
<astraljava> Hey scott-work, how are things? What's the latest on NetworkManager deal? Are there other issues that require some manpower? Sorry I've been so much away lately, the new house and the new puppy take some considerable amount of time, it seems. :)
<scott-work> astraljava: lol
<scott-work> astraljava: i think we may give up on getting network-admin fixed and try network-manager for the release candidates and ask for particular testing from users
<scott-work> astraljava: this was arrived at after talking with luke
<scott-work> astraljava: you can certainly help me with something if you have a maverick install handy
<scott-work> astraljava: quadrispro has quite a few applications in the archives now that we could install if we choose to
<astraljava> scott-work: At the moment, I don't. But that should be soon fixed, unless it gives me same kind of pain that the Lucid install gives.
<scott-work> astraljava: i've been testing them to see if they work but there are several that fail to start or crash on me that i would like someone else to test and see if the experience the same
<astraljava> scott-work: Alright, what's your arch? Mine would be amd64.
<scott-work> astraljava: currently it's i386
<scott-work> astraljava: although i might have an addition very soon :)
<scott-work> astraljava:  the list of applications that were given me problems is at home at the moment, so the soonest i could constructively provide information would not be until +7 hours from now
<scott-work> s/given/giving
<astraljava> scott-work: No prob, I can look at them by tomorrow the earliest anyway. Currently I'm fighting to get my lucid install to boot.
<scott-work> astraljava: not a major rush to get this completed right away, i would like to be able to establish which applications we do want to include with enough time to update the seeds and test a few daily builds before the next RC comes out
<scott-work> astraljava: i think this gives us just less than two weeks :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Alright, that's about how long I have vacation left. :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Does US 10.04 have Plymouth?
<astraljava> scott-work: My video card is turned off right away in the boot, and I can't seem to find any hints in the 'net about it.
<scott-work> astraljava: yes it does, and the more i see the playmouth splash screen i did the more it grates me
<scott-work> s/playmouth/plymouth
<astraljava> I'm suspecting Plymouth for that, as it's the most obvious change since 9.04 regarding the early boot-phase.
<scott-work> astraljava: hmmm, yeah it is, although i've also noticed that on some test installs i also only get text on the screen for some of the boot too
<astraljava> scott-work: Would be too easy if I only got text on the screen. In my case, the graphics card gets turned off completely. :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Yeah, looks like the system boots up correctly in every other way, but only the graphics card gives me gried.
<astraljava> scott-work: Hmm... does rt kernel play along with nv graphics driver?
<scott-work> astraljava: i dont' know, i've stopped using the -rt kernel since the -generic performs adequately for me...but that is a good questions
<scott-work> perhaps abogani might be able to provide some information about the -rt kernel and video drivers ^^^
<astraljava> scott-work: Wasn't anything to do with -rt kernel after all, there's no sign of it in /boot/grub/grub.cfg.
<astraljava> scott-work: Then it must be grub2's fault.
<scott-work> in many ways i miss grub1
<astraljava> Yeah I know what you mean.
<astraljava> Meh, wasn't the plymouth issue either, removing splash from kernel options made no difference.
<holstein> im using the RT kernel with what i assume is the nv driver
<holstein> 64bit
<holstein> no 3D
<holstein> i installed the proprietary driver and got 3D
<holstein> but that did not work with the RT kernel well at all
<holstein> yeah, its nv... i had to make a custom xorg.conf to get my screen aspect correct
<holstein> i got Bogani's ppa
<holstein> https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa
<holstein> but linux-rt and his linux-realtime seem stable
<falktx> my ppa has patches for nvidia and ati drivers
<falktx> the driver will compile on 2.6.33-rt, using dkms (as usual)
<holstein> falktx: ive been meaning to ask about that
<holstein> i got a little nervous when i added your PPA
<falktx> i understand, it's big...
<holstein> i got the 'partial upgrade' warning
<falktx> do a dist-upgrade
<falktx> sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
<holstein> i ended up going with a couple other PPA's
<falktx> holstein: if you find any problem on any package, I'll be happy to fix it
<holstein> to get a newer kernel and newer ardour
<holstein> falktx: yeah, your on it :)
<holstein> falktx: do you think i can safely purge the PPA if i hit a wall?
<falktx> many ppl use it by now, I hear all complains and fix the issues as soon as possible
<falktx> holstein: i'm sure you won't need to, but, yes
<holstein> i'll try it next time im in the studio with some time to kill
<holstein> hmm.. maybe i can do that today :)
<holstein> falktx: do you have any more up-to-date ffado packages?
<holstein> or firewire stuff in general?
<holstein> i have noticed a strange new issue
<holstein> when i try to use an external firewire HD and my firepod
<holstein> the HD seems to break the connection
<holstein> i could use an external HD with the old freebob driver
<falktx> holstein: i did not update any firewire stuff (may cause issues, and I can't test it)
<holstein> and to be honest, i dont use the HD that often, so im not sure when it broke, or what exactly broke it
<falktx> only jack1->jack2, but you already know that
<holstein> that might be enough though
<holstein> to fix it
<falktx> jack2 seems even more stable than jack1
<falktx> (it's now harder to get an app to crash jack)
<holstein> that would nice
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-13
<ScottL> astraljava, the applications i had trouble installing and/or running in maverick were:
<ScottL> zynjacku (i had it working before in an earlier alpha :(  )
<ScottL> lv2rack (also worked in an earlier alpha )
<ScottL> zyn (also known as zynadd)
<ScottL> jcgui
<ScottL> jconv
<ScottL> .
<ScottL> well, actually jcgui worked, it just would not start jconv (although I didn't try installing jack-jconv)
<astraljava> ScottL: Okay, I'll look into those as soon as I get a maverick install working.
 * abogani waves
<abogani> Please don't use -rt anymore. I don't support it on Maverick!
<abogani> I have already filled a bug report for obtain its removing (Bug #602183).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 602183 in linux-rt (Ubuntu) "Remove the linux-rt packages" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/602183
<abogani> In fact the Lucid version is more updated than Maverick one!
<abogani> If you use my PPA please consider than I don't care of incompatibilities with closed drivers or other stuff. -realtime kernel is offered "as is".
<abogani> If you care of these pieces (closed video drivers or other things) please use -lowlatency.
<abogani> It use the same configuration of the -realtime kernel but use the same code of the -generic one.
<abogani> So probably it will simply works well as -generic but with a more little latency.
<abogani> i.e. Closed drivers works perfect on -lowlatency. At least on my nvidia based laptop!
<abogani> :-)
<abogani> Last rant my request to have upload rights for -rt was denied. My request to include -lowlatency is totally ignored. Evidently my 4 years long work don't have any value for Ubuntu.
<abogani> So If'll disappear in the near future please don't be angry with me.
<abogani> If you have other questions please ping me.
<falktx> hey guys
<falktx> lmms 0.4.7 was recently released
<falktx> it now has support for zynaddsubfx automation
<falktx> (I'm guessing users will want this)
<falktx> to get it to work properly, this git patch is need though:
<falktx> http://lmms.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=lmms/lmms;a=commit;h=6c9dc19eb4970e7a124d8d1b0a0b7c1077b48c63
<falktx> I'm going to test it later today (building...)
<ckontros> ScottL: Around?
<scott-work> ckontros: yes
<scott-work> ckontros: although i'm at work :)
<scott-work> i haven't worked on any of the art since i've showed it to you before, but i should do a few more things this weekend
<ckontros> scott-work: When do you get home? I for some theme ideas to show you.
<scott-work> i was thinking of also adjust the CoF to make the current version being used with the new font
<scott-work> i should be getting home in about 4.5 hours
<ckontros> 7? Wow. Late. Ok. I should be around. If Im not in-channel PM me.
<scott-work> although i'm really not motivated to stay at work right now and have a headache so i might leave in 2 minutes 
<ckontros> hehe
<scott-work> screw it, i'm leaving work ...i'll be home in 40 minutes then
<scott-work> i'll PM you then in a bit
<ckontros> haha. I pushed you over the edge. :P
<ScottL> ckontros, yes you did, i'm home now :) 
<ckontros> :P
<ckontros> ScottL: I'm working on getting out metacity buttons to go dark when they're unfocused. Proving to be a bit tricky.
<ckontros> I can send you a archive of what I have.
<ScottL> DeMuDi might be making a revival if you read the debian-multimedia-pkg mailing list
<ScottL> ckontros, sure, send me what you have
<ckontros> ScottL: Did Freee or David get some new free time?
<ScottL> ckontros, i don't think free did and i don't really know david, but it appears that something is going on with the Debian Blends that might be the catalyst for this to start again
<ckontros> Meh.
<ckontros> (sending email)
<ckontros> Comin' atcha! Duck!
<ScottL> i'm on a vanilla ubuntu laptop right now, can i use it here? or should i go upstairs to the ubuntu studio machine?
<ckontros> Vanilla should be fine.
<ckontros> The theme.index wasn't workin' for me so you might gave to set them manually.
<ScottL> okay, i set the window border and controls to future studio
<ckontros> ScottL: SO since I got that titlebar blending into the gtk thing going on, I had to keep the titlebar color constant. So the only thing that currently tells you its unfocused is the text. I gotta effect the buttons.
<ScottL> ckontros, yeah, i see it now....the window title goes dark, i like it
<ckontros> ScottL: Sure, but I feel it's not enough. That's why I'm trying to get the buttons to change also. Also, I'm takin' the gloss (that hard edge/shine) off of things.
<ScottL> ckontros, yeah, if the buttons could fade or use a different color, that would complete the effect
<ScottL> hey, i made a quick video with blender the other day, just to show what can be done by a dude with a guitar, ubuntu studio, a green screen, and a video camera
<ScottL> just a first in a series of example videos about what is possible with blender and how accessible it is to everyone
<ScottL> i believe that most people's first thought about blender is that it's for animation or 3d modeling, not video editing or creations, they're bloody wrong of course
<ScottL> oh, in four days i had almost 400 views of my blog after that last post, but i'm in talks with two guys about helping with studio
<ckontros> ScottL: I think that's just a matter of promotion. I'd like to see an easy way to go into a "video edit" mode or something in Blender.
<ckontros> Something that people would recognize. Would be easier to highlight that way.
<ScottL> ckontros, there is!  i found a video tutorial that sets it up nicely and you can save it just like "2 - model" "5 - sequence", expect he calls this one "8 - node"
<ScottL> first, here's my quick video http://vimeo.com/14034958
<ckontros> Sure. Troy and I have a setup like that but you can overwrite that layout file.
 * ckontros clicks.
<ScottL> here's the one where he does the set up  http://vimeo.com/962573
<ScottL> yeah, i played with that setup but i actually like ^^^ better
<ScottL> but that maybe because of my limited work flow
<ckontros> I dif Vimeo btw.
<ckontros> *dig
<ScottL> i started with vimeo because youtube doesn't allow more than a 10 (or 5?) minutes video and pissed me off
<ckontros> ScottL: Ha! You can lead. :) You get off beat a little. :P
<ScottL> my video is just two first take improvs :)
<ScottL> the points was more to show that green screen stuff is easy and very, very accessible with blender
<ckontros> Cool.
<ScottL> that was probably about four hours worth of direct work when you discount all the learning i did during the process
<ScottL> that includes setting up the camera and green screen, rendering...so it's really easy when you have a work flow established
<ckontros> Nice. Troy see it?
<ScottL> not yet, i haven't caught him online yet
<ScottL> there were some artifacts also around my head that i would have liked to fix, but i didn't spend too much time with lighting or rgb curves in blender to fix it
<ckontros> Sure sure. Figured it was just proof-of-concept.
<ScottL> exactly
<ScottL> but i'm quite pleased with it though
<ScottL> after i finish some other music and post about this video i'll start another one where i do picture in picture type stuff, again proof-of-concept to show people it's available and there
<ckontros> ScottL: Put a little Studio watermark in there. Like on TV. :P
<ScottL> ckontros, ha!  that's a great idea!
<ScottL> oh, i forgot, i'm talking with two people who responded to my blog about helping with studio, one used to lead a canada loco and suggested trying to get some of them involved as well
<ScottL> he asked about eric, so he might actually know him a bit
<ScottL> well see how these pan out *shrug*
 * ckontros crosses fingers.
<ckontros> ScottL: What did you mean about changing the COF to the new typestyle?
 * ckontros downloads the latest Ubuntu alpha to see what's going on there.
<ckontros> Wow. Look who it is. :)
<stochastic> :)
<stochastic> how are you cory?
<ckontros> I'm ok. just dinkin' w/some art for Studio.
<stochastic> sweet
<stochastic> to be honest, I've switched to the default ubuntu look for Lucid rather than the Ubuntu Studio look - it's just slightly cleaner and more professional
<holstein> im using the ubuntustudio theme
<holstein> pretty much
<holstein> but i moved the buttons over to the left
<holstein> i remember how annoying that was for a bit ;)
<stochastic> ckontros, it would be nice to see the new ubuntu purple incorporated in the Ubuntu Studio theme
<ckontros> holstein: I'm debating that change officially.
<stochastic> I enjoy the left buttons
<ckontros> stochastic: I've been given several reasons not to.
<stochastic> ckontros, you mean the purple?
<ckontros> Only thing that kills me avout using the left buttons is Chome. :P
<ckontros> stochastic: Correct.
<holstein> my chromium buttons follow the theme now
<holstein> im not sure when that started happening
<holstein> but they're on the left too now
<ckontros> It's the default theme.
<ckontros> If you choose it from the main theme window, the buttons move because of a script. If toy pick the metacity manually, they stay on the right.
<ckontros> s/toy/you
<ScottL> hi stochastic 
<ScottL> stochastic, thanks for correcting me on the kernel version on the mailing list
<ScottL> holstein, yeah, the button thing isn't as big as people made it out to be, i did it for a while also
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-14
<stochastic> Okay, off topic question for the day: What popular rock band/album/song from the 80's do you wish would be heard/played more often?
<holstein> hmmm
<holstein> i can come up with a 'play these less often' list ;)
<stochastic> yeah, that's the easy list
<holstein> maybe some 'hot for teacher'
<holstein> more van halen in general
<ckontros> Blaspheme!
<holstein> hehe
<ckontros> Oh wait. Play more or less VH? :)
<holstein> well, thats up to you :)
<stochastic> I vote more for VH
<holstein> i like VH alright
<ckontros> heh. "Van Hagar" :P
<holstein> OH, and more from the 'back in black' album
<holstein> i could hear 'girls got rhythym' quite a bit more
<ckontros> Hell with that song. Every time it comes on the radio I hope, just for 1 micro-second that it's Metallica's "Fade to Black". I'm usually disappointed.
<holstein> :/
<ckontros> They start up the same way with the bells. :P
<holstein> how about 'stone cold crazy' ?
<holstein> its a cover metalica did on a compilation album
<holstein> not quite the usual thing for them
<ckontros> I'll go with Lars there. Though Freddie killed it as well.
<ckontros> See, I hear most of the 80's songs I want to. Now, if we get to the 90's, I can name a bunch of crazy death metal. :P
<stochastic> sweet, well thanks for the suggestions.  I've got a DJ gig contract coming up for a regular 80's/90's night and I want to steer away from the Phil Collins fluff but still keep things popular.
<ckontros> Oh oh. Well, that's different. :P
<stochastic> yeah, death metal wouldn't exactly fit
<holstein> chicks dig the collins
<stochastic> yeah, I won't be able to escape him, but I can try
<ckontros> stochastic: How, um, "fluffy" do you wanna get? Like Cutting Crew or something? INXS
<holstein> what was that band that did 'cult of personality' ?
<holstein> i liked that band alright
<ckontros> Living Color
<holstein> yeah
<stochastic> ckontros, it's at a pub, so some regulars will get annoyed with too much fluff, but I could probably get away with a lot if I actually wanted to
<ckontros> You know thw singer is Danny Glover's (Lethal Weapon) son?
<ckontros> s/thw/the
<ckontros> stochastic: Stick to hair bands then. :P
 * ckontros whistles "Unskinny bop bop bop..." (from the 90's i think though)
<stochastic> well I'm off to work for the night, talk to you guys later
<ckontros> later
<ckontros> stochastic: Make sure and come back. ;)
<ScottL> stochastic, you can always rock the stones...exile on main street, sticky fingers era
<ScottL> ckontros, i didn't know that about the Living Color singer
<ckontros> ScottL: Nor did I 'till 2 weeks ago. :P
<ckontros> Tinkering with text layouts: http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6429/testjkk.png (ignore the bg)
<ckontros> PM if needed.
<ScottL> hi troy_s , got some stuff for you 
<troy_s> ScottL: Awesome hit me.
<ScottL> here's my quick example blender video:  http://vimeo.com/14034958
<ScottL> troy_s, and here's some logo concepts i was working on
<troy_s> ScottL: LOL. You pulled off your first baby steps with a greenscreen I see.
<ScottL> troy_s, next i'm going to do a screen in screen, well four screens where i hand stuff to myself and around the four cubes
<ScottL> troy_s, here's some stuff that cory was working on  http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6429/testjkk.png
<troy_s> ScottL: You have some green fringing there which means you need to do a little bit of channel futzing. You basically need to either blur a channel (if you break down the source using the break down nodes), erode a channel and blur it, or such tricks.
<troy_s> ScottL: How did you find sync?
<ScottL> blender is just freaking awesome, powerful, and accessible in everyone
<ScottL> troy_s, i zoomed in and watched my hands in time to the music (not very sophisticated or prescient but it worked)
<troy_s> ScottL: You need to pay attention to float values with syncing too. North American 30fps is 30/1.001 for example.
<troy_s> ScottL: The telltale is if you import footage and the audio lines up with the video you have it nailed.
<troy_s> ScottL: But you have a little to learn from there. Looks like it was a success.
<ScottL> troy_s, yeah, i had to adjust to 30fps to make the audio match the video
<troy_s> ScottL: 30/1.001 <- Big difference.
<ScottL> troy_s, yeah, i could have spent more time with lighting and "channel futzing" but it got the proof-of-concept done :)
<ScottL> troy_s, yeah, i know, it will add up to something appreciable eventually
<troy_s> ScottL: Also, you should probably try to get that fringing out of there. If you have any green "spill" (reflected green on your skin for example) you will need to extract that too. There are various approaches.
<troy_s> ScottL: It's a great start though.
<troy_s> ScottL: Good work on getting it done and not wallowing in unfinished land (as I currently am *sigh*)
<ScottL> troy_s, i found this set of tutorials for blender also  http://vimeo.com/962573  i helped me set up my node editor layout nicely
<ScottL> troy_s, i know you and cory had something for editing video and i tried it, but i like the simplisty of that one ^^^, it works well for my limited workflow
<troy_s> ScottL: CGCookie has plenty of them there too.
<troy_s> ScottL: If you use 2.5 there is a default layout "Video Editing" for example.
<troy_s> ScottL: It is worth SVNing.
<ScottL> troy_s, yeah, there are other problems with 2.49 as well, i had thought about building my own :)
<troy_s> ScottL: There always are. Ubuntu is hideous at packages like that.
<troy_s> ScottL: Any package that evolves at the proper pace, Ubuntu struggles with. They just grab a revision and include it.
<troy_s> ScottL: Often has huge lumpy bits.
<ScottL> troy_s, oi, i also had something like 450 hits on my blog over 5 days, and only five emails of people wanting to help
<ScottL> troy_s, of the 5 that emailed to help, i think maybe one will do something....maybe stay, maybe not *shrug*
<troy_s> ScottL: No clue. Not even really sure what Ubuntu Studio is. Never really was. 
<troy_s> ScottL: That's probably part of the issue.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-08
<falktx> hi there
<scott-work> morning
<astraljava> o/
<scott-work> after our conversation yesterday i am feeling energized again
<scott-work> astraljava: ^^^
<astraljava> YES!! Mission accomplished. I can go slack off again.
<scott-work> lol :)
<astraljava> Hehe. :) Seriously, it was really good for me to host the meeting. I seem to have gotten more excited as well.
<scott-work> good :)
<scott-work> that coincides with my question about hosting the meeting and an potential increase of involvement
<astraljava> Also, in a week, I'll be having a 100/10 line at home, so I get to really devel and test, I mean, seriously, so I'm getting pumped up right now.
<scott-work> i believe that many people are hesitant to speak in meetings because they don't feel honestly involved or part of the project
<astraljava> Yeah. It's just the thing of getting your hands dirty, you get to the feel of things.
 * astraljava is all about things today, it seems
<scott-work> once they lead the meeting some of the mysteriousness or unfamiliarity dissapates and people seem to be more willing to be active
<astraljava> Right, exactly.
 * scott-work wonders if that will translate to project lead as well
<astraljava> holstein: Do you recall seeing the minutes of the meeting you hosted in July?
<astraljava> scott-work: I would assume as much. After all, we're not seeing really long-term leaders in teams of ubuntu-land. It's an exhaustive position, and will need fresh blood every once in a while.
<astraljava> The rotation should utilize for that nicely.
<astraljava> utilize that* ?
<astraljava> or not utilize at all, maybe something else.
<astraljava> But you get the point.
 * astraljava wishes he knew more English
<abogani> 8.9-lowlatency kernel is available.
<abogani> I meant 8.10
<scott-work> astraljava: many people in this channel are not native english speakers, however i have not found many occurrances for which i could not undestand them
<scott-work> i have pointed out several times that i have found many English Second Language (ESL) speakers to speak better than many native English speakers
<scott-work> this is a position for which i speak honestly
<scott-work> ah, alessio is gone before i could thank him
<scott-work> ah, abogani , good afternoon to you my friend!
<abogani> scott-work: good afternoon to you! :-)
<scott-work> thank you for mentioning the -lowlatency kernel
<scott-work> is this the 3.8.10 kernel? and is it in your git repository?
<abogani> scott-work: Yes!
<scott-work> abogani:  in the past have you ever considered if the debian multimedia team would accept your kernels, particularly the -lowlatency kernel?
<scott-work> i wonder if they would or not
<abogani> scott-work: I don't care because kernels are never imported in Ubuntu from Debian directly .
<scott-work> ah, a very astute point
<abogani> scott-work: For same reasons: different patches, different versions, different toolchain and so on...
<scott-work> yes, i should have realized this
<scott-work> abogani:  emmett has been unresponsive for the currently packaged kernel in my ppa and therefore i am hesitant to devote time to packaging this one as well :/
<scott-work> my time has been overly taxed and i am trying to be judicious with it of late
<scott-work> astraljava: i spoke with skaet last night/this morning regarding the A3 image and whether it had been published
<scott-work> i was concerned that i did not speak to her in a timely fashion and the image had been published, apparently i did and it didn't :)
<scott-work> i was quite surprised when she PM'ed me stated she had read the meeting logs and saw my comments regarding this and was concerned if she had done the correct thing
<scott-work> i assured her that she had
<abogani> scott-work: I'm waiting so long that you start to be judicious about your time. If you remember I advise that you a lot of times ;-)
<abogani> I have advised
<scott-work> abogani: yes, yes, my friend, i remember it very clearly :)  and i do appreciate your concern, i cannot stress enough my appreciation for you
<holstein> astraljava: july didnt happen
<holstein> i sent out the email late though
 * abogani is wondering if UStudio has received requests about -rt kernel.
<astraljava> scott-work: Wow! Damn. She's hard-core, _so_ dedicated! :)
<astraljava> holstein: Okay, I'm just wondering where I can find the meeting minutes as the site where they should have them has last been updated at the end of June.
<holstein> right.. we didnt have a meeting
<holstein> i mean, no one came, so i didnt start it
<holstein> i didnt do a stub about it...
<astraljava> Okay cool, no worries, I was just informed the minutes are there, but the web interface doesn't update.
<astraljava> So I gotta ask for them.
<holstein> yeah?
<holstein> i didnt start the bot, and i didnt grab anything from #ubuntu-meeting
<holstein> i think i said 'the meeting is postponed'
<holstein> we could grab that
<astraljava> Right on. :)
<astraljava> No, I don't mean from the July meeting. :D
<astraljava> Just from yesterday. :D
<holstein> AH... :)
<holstein> i see
<astraljava> Hehe, that would hilarious. See meeting minutes here: "Meeting postponed". Cheers!
<holstein> lol
<scott-work> but there was a meeting the holstein chaired for which he did use the bot if you are interested in those as well, astraljava 
<scott-work> astraljava: but i do also realize that you are looking for the minutes from the meeting yesterday as well
<holstein> astraljava: i can put the channel output in a pastebin if you need...
<scott-work> ailo: astraljava: holstein: i feel that our conversations yesterday were powerful, would it be possible to set a time we can get together as discuss plans for the remainder of this release?
<holstein> sure
<scott-work> and possible discuss the direction of oneiric+1
<holstein> how about loosely a daily thing?
<holstein> just hang when/if we are around?
<scott-work> i would prefer something more organized originally, just to set a loose frame work of what we can reasonably accomplish and agree upon it as a group
<holstein> ubuntu 12.04 codename practially panther ;)
<scott-work> then i think loose, daily discussion are good :)
<scott-work> holstein: i like your other one better
<holstein> hehe
<astraljava> scott-work: Definitely. We would need a lot of workshop sessions to get everything going. It's too seldom that enough people are here otherwise at the sametime.
<astraljava> same time, even
<scott-work> i don't think it needs to be a formalized meeting for everyone to attend
<scott-work> just the four of us because we are the most active and will be doing the actual work
<scott-work> it could be an ad hoc, pickup meeting if we happend to be here at the same time
<scott-work> or we could agree on a time and do it
<astraljava> That's the thing, we will hardly ever be here at the same time, unless we agree on a date beforehand.
<astraljava> But outside of that, we can drop all formalities.
<scott-work> maybe we might shoot for three out of the four then and give the fourth notes of the discussion for which he can comment
<scott-work> i am very frustrated with the lack of progress and am very motivated to over come obstacles and make progress
<astraljava> Exactly. Hell, even 2 would be great. Most days, it's someone shooting some ideas on the channel, and 8 hours later someone +1's.
<scott-work> then perhaps we should define a framework to discuss these things on IRC over time
<scott-work> maybe we should all mention the top five tasks we feel is imortant to finish this cycle's development, wait a day, comapre the list, decide which ones to attack, prioritize them, and assign responsibility
<astraljava> My timeframe would be around 1500 UTC to 2200 UTC, and the things I'd like to be worked on are (in no particular order): 1. lowlatency kernel, 2. package selection (includes everything from seeds to workflow description), 3. user-friendly documentation, 4. contributior-friendly documentation, 5. continuity of the project
<ailo> I'm close to a computer usually between 06.00-20.00 UTC
<ailo> The rest of the time I might be sleeping
<astraljava> Ahh... yeah, on a normal week, my comp.time is usually from around 0500 UTC to that 2200 to 2300 UTC, but this week, I played it safe and gave it a reduced schedule, as we're... you know, busy with two releases due Friday. :D
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-09
<astraljava> paultag: ping
<paultag> astraljava: pong
<astraljava> Hey gang, meeting page updated (in case you're not subscribed:) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings
<astraljava> paultag: I know some python, and am familiar with git. Am I qualified? :D
<paultag> astraljava: if you want to apply, I'd love to give you a little task to play with :)
<paultag> I need a sous-chef to take some of the work off me, so I can help more overall
<astraljava> Well, sounds intriguing, but like I mentioned, am not sure yet whether I'm up for it or not. You might have something too challenging in mind. But sure, let's hear it.
<paultag> astraljava: pop over to #whube, I need help with Syn, my package manager
<astraljava> scott-work: It seems I'm gonna have to concentrate on the iso testing starting from next Monday. That's when I get the new broadband line, and this week I'm gonna be Ã¼ber-busy at work, so will likely forget to zsync the image.
<scott-work> right, we're already past A3 so i don't think it's a rush at the moment ;)
<astraljava> I suppose so. Looks like there were some uninstallable binaries anyway, so I doubt there was a decent .iso today.
<scott-work> yes, good point, i had read that this morning
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-10
<scott-work> astraljava: i am ready with some backporting stuff if you are still interested
<astraljava> scott-work: Oh I am, but I'm still at work (12h now, and counting) so can we get back to it, like, tomorrow?
<scott-work> sure, now problem, i'll send an email just to make sure i don't keep retarding any progress
<astraljava> That's a good idea. :)
<scott-work> astraljava: can you send me your ubuntu email address, i didn't find it in launchpad
<scott-work> i follow up with my comments from yesterday:
<scott-work> i believe i am available from 13:00 UTC to 03:00 UTC the next day (which should be 08:00 CST to 22:00 CST)
<scott-work> and i can only decide on the top three priorities at this point
<scott-work> #1 xfce transition
<scott-work> #2 lowlatency kernel
<scott-work> #3 documentation
<scott-work> although I will add a fourht right now
<scott-work> #4  create a wiki page for people who want to contribute
<scott-work> this would like what needs to be done and how they can help
<holstein> scott-work: can you broad-stoke documentation?
<holstein> like, whats new in the new release kind of thing?
<holstein> how-tos?
<holstein> is it updating an old wiki?
<scott-work> i consider "documentation" as updating all the documentation on the help.ubuntu.com pages
<holstein> ok
<holstein> wikis though right?
<scott-work> aye
<holstein> i mean, i can just update them?
<holstein> cool...
<scott-work> absolutely!
<scott-work> i think we should probably agree on some pages first
<scott-work> i mean that while i agree a page should be devoted to setting up jack using qjackctl...
<scott-work> there are other pages that might try to explain jack or setting up midi or something that might change topic drastically
<scott-work> because we might decide to break it up into several pages and possible incorporate them with other topics
<holstein> is there just on over veiw?
<holstein> a tree or something?
<holstein> a TOC?
<scott-work> my mantra has been that once we (whoever wants to be involved) agree on a framework then we can start hacking away
<holstein> i think some of them could just be cleaned up
<holstein> consolidated
<scott-work> holstein: this is what i have developed:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/IntroTutVideos
<scott-work> ailo says he is working on something as well
<holstein> yeah, thats nice scott-work 
<scott-work> thanks :)
<holstein> you got wiki-fu
<holstein> i like the graphics
<scott-work> lols
<scott-work> graphics are all ricardo l
<scott-work> rlameiro
<holstein> well... you got fu too
<scott-work> i'm just anxious to establish a logical heirarchy so we can move forward
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-11
 * abogani waves all
<abogani> http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/481201-the-2011-top-7-best-linux-distributions-for-you
<astraljava> wow! That's too cool! Thanks for sharing. :)
<mauri> error using moun to update package: it seems that Qapt is missing o disappers............ WHAT SHOULD i DO
<falktx> sudo apt-get install -f
<falktx> I guess
<scott-work> mauri:  are you using qapt for a particular reason with ubuntu studio?
<astraljava> What is that anyway? Not in the repos.
<scott-work> http://packages.ubuntu.com/maverick/qapt-batch
<scott-work> that's what i looked up to understand what it was
<astraljava> Oh sorry, I was being an idiot.
<scott-work> no, because then i was being an idiot an hour ago as well ;)
<astraljava> HEhe. :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-12
<holstein> OK
<holstein> im going for membership next week
<holstein> i know all of you want to give me a testimonial ;)
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/holstein
<astraljava> Hey cool! I'm on it during the weekend.
 * astraljava thinks he should do it at some point as well, maybe
<holstein> charlie-tca: w0w... thanks so much for your kind words :)
<charlie-tca> I only put true words in those
<astraljava> But true words can draw lies as well, it's the sentence that counts. :D
 * astraljava ducks and hides away
<falktx> it seems like jack has now multiarch support
<falktx> cool
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-13
<astraljava> Yeah I saw some email correspondence related to that. Nice!
<ailo> Anyone else notice how much Ubuntu is starting to adjust towards mac? Single click indicators. Now I noticed you can't delete files in Nautilus using the DEL button. You have to right click and choose "move to trash"
<falktx> ailo: have you seen gnome3 ?
<falktx> that's a full blown copy
<falktx> (of mac)
<ailo> You think so?
<falktx> ailo: ubuntu has unity, which I like and feels a bit original
<ailo> I've only used it a little
<falktx> ailo: gnome3 is a ripoff of mac
 * falktx looks for screens
<ailo> Isn't Unity a simplified rip-off of Gnome3?
<falktx> ailo: no, unity is made from scratch
<falktx> it uses gtk3, but not gnome itself
<falktx> ailo: note the mac preferences - http://www.demogeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Mac-OSX-System-Preferences.jpg
<falktx> ailo: now look at gnome 3 -> http://ompldr.org/vODNhaw/gnome_3_settings.png
<ailo> It's the same in Unity
<ailo> They are using Gnome3 as base now
<falktx> ailo: ah, yes, but gnome3 != gnome3-shell
<ailo> Right
<falktx> Personal and Hardware are the top things in the screenshots
<falktx> ailo: gnome3 also copied the mac way of showing dialogs (not a new window, but slide from the top)
<ailo> It does seem a lot of mac functionality is being used
<ailo> And installing Ubuntu on a mac should feel more natural
<ailo> The system settings part is pretty good in my opinion
<ailo> The "power button menu" in the top right how has more options
<ailo> System settings, updates..
<ailo> I'm happy someone made a indicator version of the hardware monitor applate
<ailo> applet*
<ailo> What I like about both Gnome3 and Unity is the menu
<falktx> I don't like gnome3
<ailo> Well, you are a KDE guy
<falktx> the systray is the worse thing I ever saw
<ailo> I don't really care too much about mac. As long as the desktop is functional
<astraljava> ailo: Please keep in mind, though, that ubuntu != GNOME
<astraljava> Granted, the vanilla uses that exclusively, but Canonical people don't make those decisions
<ailo> True. Ubuntu is not Gnome3. But, Unity looks very similar to Gnome3
<astraljava> I can imagine. But I'm not willing to see it for myself. :D
<astraljava> Guess I will have to, though, in order to keep providing support on #ubuntu. (granted, very sporadic)
<falktx> hm, who is Cory?
<falktx> (ie, his nickname)
<ailo> falktx, ckontros I think
 * falktx wonders why he's not on irc
<ailo> falktx, He may be, but not logged into this channel. 
<falktx> ok
<falktx> I'll be sad to not see US oneiric
<falktx> at least we should try
<astraljava> Cory is the previous Studio head.
<astraljava> The one that got the thing going.
<falktx> oh
<astraljava> But yeah. That's his opinion. He's not the head anymore, so that's only one vote. The team will still decide.
<ailo> Yeah, he proceeds as if he's the one who calls all the shots :P
<falktx> but his proposal is exactly what I'm trying to do with KXStudio
<falktx> if US would take that action, my guess it's that we could no longer call it "UbuntuStudio"
<ailo> I would prefer US to be just a tuneup of Ubuntu
<ailo> I've said that before
<falktx> I would to
<falktx> I want to make KXStudio like an extension of Ubuntu[Studio]
<falktx> I will force people to start saying "I'm using Ubuntu", not "I'm using KXStudio", which is no longer a distro
<falktx> at least this can help US a little
 * falktx still needs to finish the website
<ailo> A live CD would be great though
<falktx> oh, yes, totally
<falktx> one thing at a time
<falktx> I promised ScottL I would help US with a live-cd and I will do that
<ailo> What's the problem with getting US to base on Xubuntu now?
<falktx> no one
<falktx> I think it's a wise move
<falktx> gnome3 and unity are not suited to multimedia production
<astraljava> IMHO, he gave up. If the rest of the team won't do that, we're fine.
<falktx> cool
<astraljava> But we do need reinforcements.
<ailo> I don't agree, but XFCE is still a good chooce
<astraljava> Lots of fresh blood.
<ailo> falktx, How do you make your iso's?
<ailo> Can't we just copy Xubuntu and make some very small changes to it?
<astraljava> We got the ball rolling again just the other day, in a conversation between holstein, ailo, ScottL and yours truly. We'll make it.
<falktx> ailo: I have a script for that. I create a debian chroot, install packages, and pack it into an ISO
<astraljava> ailo: That thing is under works, and should be testable (is that a word?) soon-ish. Before the beta1 anyway.
<ailo> I really don't think it matters so much how the desktop looks, or what panels we use, as long as we have a working distro
<ailo> As littel changes as possible, I think
<ailo> At the same time, I have no idea about tuning a distro for multimedia on a lower level, which US used to be good at, I guess
<ailo> Performance is the most important issue. To get stable performance
<ailo> That is why I always thought -lowlatency was important
<ailo> The live ISO would just serve as an example anyway
<ailo> And if you can't get stable performance installing the packages from the main repo, it sucks a bit, I think
<ailo> XFCE would in my view only be one way to go
<ailo> The user should be able to use any derivative, and just by installing the US meta packages be able to get a good system for multimedia
<ailo> So, I agree with both falktx and ckontros
<ailo> Who's working on the iso, then?
<falktx> currently no one
<ailo> Xubuntu has two iso's. One is live, and one is alternate
<ailo> How hard would it be to just copy the Xubuntu live CD, and adjust the preinstalled packages?
<ailo> Of course, I realize you need to change a few things here and there
<falktx> later
<astraljava> ailo: That's why we never considered live-cd/dvd so important. It wouldn't necessarily deliver the same performance. But these days, people got tons of RAM. It might work.
<holstein> astraljava: i agree, we can make it 
<holstein> cory is not in here
<astraljava> The branding used to be the reason, together with the already available set of packages to do most everything a multimedia-related worker needed to do.
<astraljava> holstein: We can. I'm a bit worried for 12.04, as it's an LTS, and it should be S-O-L-I-D.
<astraljava> But, with a good 11.10, we could deliver.
<holstein> i mean, i brought that up before too
<holstein> going to just PPA's
<holstein> just meta packages
<holstein> thats something we could discuss again
<holstein> astraljava: im a fan of the live CD installer for a couple reasons
<holstein> firstly, testing... folks can see how the hardware will work with JACK
<holstein> the installation process too from the alternate CD is not friendly
<holstein> i have not talked to *any* person who flawlessly install 11.04 from the ubuntustudio CD
<holstein> over in #ubuntustudio
<astraljava> holstein: Yeah, but then again, people can see whether their hw works with vanilla live cd. Studio doesn't necessarily be used for that.
<holstein> astraljava: not really
<astraljava> We would certainly not be using PPAs for that.
<holstein> JACK is not there, and if we have a -lowlatency kernel, you can test that from the live CD
<astraljava> They're bound to be out of official support, always.
<holstein> astraljava: +, we are literally the only multimedia distro thats *not* live
<astraljava> Okay, valid points, there.
<ailo> astraljava, There will be no loss in performance whatsoever with a live CD
<holstein> i think new users expect to see the tools live
<holstein> i know i do
<astraljava> I don't care about being "out there" or not. Every distro does it their own way.
<astraljava> ailo: There will, unless you can fit everything needed into RAM.
<holstein> sure... but, i really agree with the reasoning, so thats why i suggest it
<holstein> i would have never gotten over the hump so to speak without the 64studio live CD
<holstein> 2.whatever
<astraljava> holstein: I understand that it would be great to have that possibility.
<holstein> i see lots of that in the support channel too
<holstein> most everyone
<holstein> "i installed ubuntustudio and its not doing whatever"
<holstein> "it sucks, i hate it"
<holstein> and some of that is opinion for sure
<ailo> astraljava, The only difference is that loading programs takes longer time. I don't count that as a loss in performance
<ailo> The programs still run just as fast
<holstein> but, i feel like some of it could be made easier for them
<astraljava> Sure. Ubuntu has a name. It's fashionable to diss it.
<holstein> them = the new user
<holstein> unless we dont care about them
<holstein> which is fine too
<holstein> just take a stand as a technical level tool
<astraljava> Oh, but we do care. It's always just been a balance between what we can deliver, and who we have to leave out.
<holstein> astraljava: that makes sense
<holstein> what we *can* do
<holstein> somewhere in the middle
<holstein> i mean, ubuntu proper is/has been really good at filling that gap of something for the new user
<holstein> and i think ubuntustudio has been that too
<astraljava> I mean, IMHO, Studio would be a leading distro, if we had thrice the developers we have had.
<astraljava> But at most, there has been like 3 at the time.
<holstein> astraljava: im looking into what it would take for us to transition to official
<holstein> like kubuntu
<astraljava> We're already official.
<holstein> not really though
<holstein> paid developers work on kubuntu
<astraljava> Together with Xubuntu, Kubuntu, and Mythbuntu.
<holstein> and we dont have that
<holstein> i *thought* we were too
<astraljava> But we're the only ones that are supported on #ubuntu.
<astraljava> Paid is a different thing.
<astraljava> That's up to Mark.
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu and Kubuntu are the only ones with paid developers
<astraljava> Cory was paid at one point.
<holstein> yeah, im not sure what it takes yet
<astraljava> But it became evident that this was not going places enough, so they dropped it.
<holstein> it has been refreshing to see the xubuntu team in action charlie-tca 
<holstein> you guys really have it together
<charlie-tca> But we are all volunteers, too
<charlie-tca> We have no paid developer
<charlie-tca> and for altogether, we only have two devs working on it
<holstein> i keep thinking if we had a paid team member or 2, we could get something done
<holstein> but, you guys do great
<holstein> always have
<charlie-tca> We have our ups and downs
<charlie-tca> There was a big battle about three years ago that almost killed Xubuntu
<holstein> i feel like maybe that happened here?
<holstein> i feel like i came in on some aftermath, but maybe not
<charlie-tca> I don't know. It might be
<charlie-tca> we came within days of not having a distribution
<astraljava> That's happened with Studio as well.
<astraljava> It's not so surprising, really.
<astraljava> When there's no-one who's livelihood depends on it.
<astraljava> s/who's/whose/
<kubotu> astraljava meant: "When there's no-one whose livelihood depends on it."
<astraljava> Right?
<astraljava> Oh look at that.
<charlie-tca> Right
 * astraljava ^5s kubotu 
<charlie-tca> When we are all volunteer, it is harder to find people to keep gooing
<ailo> Or someones wet dream
<charlie-tca> s/gooing/going
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu went from 7 or 8 to two overnight back then'
<astraljava> Sad as it is, that's the truth.
<ailo> People don't usually have all the time in the world for one of their interests
<astraljava> That's what shocks most of the newcomers in the OS projects.
<astraljava> They're all  enthusiastic and ready to conquer the world.
<charlie-tca> yup, it takes a couple of very dedicated people to keep things rolling
<astraljava> But the oldies... they have priorities.
<astraljava> And most of the time, they clash.
<astraljava> charlie-tca's right. It only takes a few.
<astraljava> But good luck in finding the feww.
<astraljava> -w
<ailo> It's a matter of timing too I think
<astraljava> That's exactly what I meant.
<astraljava> Priorities.
<ailo> I sometimes think perhaps it
<astraljava> They're not constant.
<ScottL> is this conversation derived from cory's email?
<astraljava> ScottL: For sure.
<ailo> astraljava, Yeah, but say 5 people might all have time at the same time, and then no one has.
<astraljava> ailo: Right. That's exactly what has happened to Studio.
 * ScottL hasn't actually read backsroll but saw there was much of it
<astraljava> I believe in '05-'06, Studio had it going.
<ailo> ScottL, What do you think of corys post?
<astraljava> But then, the downhill started.
<astraljava> It hasn't really picked up since then.
<ScottL> ailo, i have some thoughts about cory's email
<astraljava> Back then, we had Joe, Cory, and the guy I never seem to recall
<ScottL> but i would start before the email
<astraljava> And some devs to boot.
<ScottL> cory called me and we talked about twenty minutes on the phone
<astraljava> Then the whole thing fell apart.
<astraljava> Pieces only were picked since.
<ScottL> he has concerns about the trajectory of the project
<ScottL> especially in contrast to the history that astrajava is currently commenting
<ScottL> or recalling
<ScottL> cory has been an advocate for the "ppa method" for some time i believe
<ScottL> and cory made a very good point to me on the phone:
<ScottL> we devote an inordinate amount of time on integration, iso building, etc
<ailo> ScottL, Was cory the only one working on the iso just now?
<ScottL> that takes away from what he called the goal of project, "showing what this software can do"
<ScottL> ailo, i'm not sure i understand your question is this a rhetorical question?
<ailo> I agree with that statement. And that the iso should be mostly about that. While the meta packages should be where the focus is
<ScottL> aye, ailo, that was his point
<ScottL> he argument was that if we focused on using a ppa to "upgrade" from vanilla to ubuntu we focus more on packaging and less on other things
<ailo> ScottL, I mean, who was leading the work on getting the iso to be based on Xubuntu?
<ScottL> well, cory has made significant changes, but astraljava has likewise made significant changes
<ScottL> a second aspect of cory's concern was that we have few contributors/developers and we seem to be overwhelmed (as detected by the lack of progress)
<ailo> I would be fine with UbuntuStudio based on a live Xubuntu ISO, and just changing as little as needed. As long as it performs well.
<astraljava> My only objection against using plain PPAs is the official support that we're having.
<astraljava> We're not many.
<astraljava> If we have to provide support ourselves, we're doomed.
<ScottL> astraljava, you make an excellent point, on that i would have made as well if no one else did not
<ScottL> oh, i wasn't going to say "we're doomed" however :P
<astraljava> From my point of view, that's enough payment for the effort that we're showing during the devel cycle.
<astraljava> ScottL: That's' because everything you say gets quoted in the press. :D
<ScottL> lol
<ScottL> i know there are several people who believe the ppa method is the route to be preferred...
<ScottL> but i wanted to mention our official status and the benefits that yields
<astraljava> Exactly.
<astraljava> It's something far more than people really realize.
<ScottL> i can see advantages and disadvantages to both sides...i do not advocate a position at this point
<astraljava> Building a derivate isn't just about releasing an .iso.
<ailo> I think ppa's are fine for testing. But, isn't the idea to keep the meta packages up to date as well?
<astraljava> We're committing to it for 18 months at the time, a minimum.
<astraljava> Sometimes even longer.
<ScottL> aye, but we can choose our own release schedule for those ISO's, astraljava 
<astraljava> ailo: That's what we're doing. Creating meta-packages for the convenience of the users.
<ScottL> we can only do LTS, or just every year, of whenever we damn well feel like it
<astraljava> ScottL: True, but the packages are still bound to higher-ups' schedules.
<ScottL> ailo, astraljava:  cory made another point i'll mention, we can create more meta-packages in ppa to help with installation of applications based on work flows
<astraljava> ScottL: Sure, but every new meta increases the workload.
<ailo> ScottL, That doesn't sound like a point to me though
<ScottL> astraljava, we can work more directly with back ports or choose to create a ppa for updating packages to our release version
<ailo> ScottL, I want to see those workflows outlined to the detail before I agree that is a point
<ScottL> the more subtle point is that we CAN move stuff into the ppa if we choose
<astraljava> That's a good thing, aye.
<ScottL> to an extreme that we are similar to kxstudio and pull most packages from ppa if we chose
<ailo> It's a good place to do experiments
<astraljava> But again, it's out of #ubuntu's scope, so not a very sought-after thing, in the end.
<ScottL> again, i'm not advocating, just discussion what is possible
<astraljava> That's good, keep the discussion flowing.
<ailo> astraljava, So, what's missing for the iso to work?
<ailo> Is there some sort of a roadmap somewhere for it?
<ailo> I'm just curious on what the problem is with that
<charlie-tca> ScottL: you got a good grasp on it
<charlie-tca> I tried to explain the same thing to Lubuntu. Ubuntu is a tool for those of us trying to help with other derivatives
<charlie-tca> It is not an iron-clad rule maker, for any of us.
<ScottL> charlie-tca, thank you :)
<ScottL> i fear that i have moment of clarity on specific subject only though
<charlie-tca> That's all any of us get, I think.
<ScottL> argh, moments... and subjects....
<astraljava> It totally depends on what you want.
<astraljava> Official support?
<astraljava> Play by the rules.
<charlie-tca> It's when we think we have to keep up with Ubuntu that it hurts us
<astraljava> More freedom?
<astraljava> You're almost on your own.
<charlie-tca> yes, you are. Ubuntu provides us with hosted images, and time frames that work sometimes
<charlie-tca> They are also willing to fix a lot of bugs that we do not have resources to even look at.
<ScottL> my main concern if we choose the ppa method is that we will loose recognition and ISO building rights that we may never claim again
<ailo> astraljava, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-meta/+bug/806672 ?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 806672 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu Oneiric) "UbuntuStudio Oneiric Alpha2 fails to install - unmet dependencies" [Critical,Triaged]
<astraljava> ScottL: That's exactly right.
<astraljava> ScottL: It's why I'm still fighting, to keep what we have going for us.
<astraljava> ailo: Without looking, those are fixed, but not uploaded since we didn't come to an agreement of what we want to have by default.
<astraljava> TheMuso: Could you upload ubuntustudio.oneiric so we can see what fails now, when new .isos are being built?
<ScottL> cory also seemed a little disappointed that dev discussions had not been happening on the mailing list recently
<astraljava> I will try to do the testing tomorrow, if I have time, but due to my limited bandwidth, it'll most likely have to wait until next week.
<ScottL> he seemed to think this reflected activity
<ScottL> i assure him it did not
<ScottL> as we discuss things quite frequently here
<astraljava> Yeah. Why isn't he on IRC?
<ScottL> work and family...he commented that work was especially busy lately
<astraljava> At least I don't have time to double everything on the ML.
<astraljava> Yeah but okay, there's still irclogs.u.c
<astraljava> So, people. Could you please have a look @ https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.oneiric
<astraljava> Tell us, what's your opinion. What should not be there, and what should, but is not.
<astraljava> We have 2 weeks until beta1.
<astraljava> Nothing can be added, that's not already in oneiric repos (excluding FFes, but highly unlikely).
<astraljava> But within those limits.
<astraljava> Because, that's the stuff that depicts how the session will look like
<astraljava> If you don't like it now, you won't like it when the release happens.
<astraljava> I should probably throw it on the ML, too.
<ScottL> astraljava, i think the main focus should be to get luke to update the metas so we can test an image
<ScottL> just my opinion, mind you
<astraljava> I know, but just in case we have overlooked something that's obvious, really.
<astraljava> And I just pinged him, so we should see some results soon.
<astraljava> Right, we get some ML activity. I feel we should have more of that anyway, that's one thing Cory is right about.
<astraljava> Not all people can hang on IRC all the time, even though I just mentioned the logs
<astraljava> There's lots of room for development.
<astraljava> That's one thing.
<ailo> I too think anything important should always be posted on the mail list
<astraljava> The holy trinity, IMHO, is IRC - wiki - ML.
<astraljava> Currently we're doing pretty well on the first two.
<ScottL> i am still of the mind that clearly and consensually identify our audience and goals would help answer most of our questions of late
<ScottL> it's hard to make decisions without knowing what we are trying to accomplish
<ailo> I have the same view I had when I started hanging out here
<ScottL> i doubt we will find easy consensus however among those present much less amongst those not present
<ailo> I think US should be a tuneup of Ubuntu for multimedia. It should make Ubuntu perform well for anything multimedia and have easy ways of finding apps and documentation for them
<ailo> The ISO should be a showcase. An example
<astraljava> So, did we get anywhere in defining those audiences and goals?
<ScottL> ailo, by "tune up" do you mean a state of being or an installing process?
<ScottL> astraljava, i don't think so
<ailo> ScottL, -lowlatency is an example of a package that makes Ubuntu perform better for audio use
<ScottL> okay, i think i understand that
<ailo> If there are additional packages/settings that are required for one to get good performance, I would count those in under the performance criteria
<ailo> Then, there's guidance
<ailo> Guiding the user
<ailo> Which is where workflows comes in, and documentation.
<ailo> As well as ubuntustudio-controls
<ailo> When it comes to UI, I'm not that concerned. The simpler, the better
<ailo> Let the user decide which derivative, and which UI
<ailo> Of course, meta-packages for multimedia apps is helpful too
<ailo> Even though,  a comprehensive database might be even better
<ScottL> ailo, are you expected an experienced user, both with linux and music?
<ailo> A database needs to be updated for every release
<ailo> No. Not at all
<holstein> this is where i am... i can *totally* get behind the PPA only idea... i just feel like we discussed this back in april, and decided to do XFCE
<holstein> if we are comfortable letting the work we have done go, lets entertain it
<holstein> we being astraljava and others... i havent personally done much
<astraljava> Yeah. That's where our expectations differ. What we currently (mostly) have, are devs who know what needs to be done package/config -wise. But we lack in the documentation people.
<ailo> ppa only, to me, seems like giving up completely. Then it's just another distro
<holstein> it would take a bit of pressure off
<astraljava> holstein: Sure, but only temporarily.
<holstein> i mean, we already decided back in april *not* to do PPA's only
<holstein> and we have talked about it since then
<ailo> For me, the whole point of US is to be the standard multimedia framwork for all Ubuntu based distros
<astraljava> Once the support questions come piling in, we're screwed (not Scott's opinion, I know)
<holstein> maybe
<astraljava> And once those are left unanswered, we're practically no more.
<holstein> it might help make things consistent too
<holstein> i mean, no more 'did you install from the DVD?'
<holstein> TBH, i usually talk people *out* of using the ubuntustudio installer
<ailo> I wouldn't be interested in working on UbuntuStudio, if it was not in the main repo. Then I could just make my own ppa instead
<astraljava> holstein: Doesn't matter.
<holstein> new folks at least
<astraljava> Either way, people in the official support channels will support ours.
<astraljava> If we are to deviate from that...
<holstein> ailo: would this kick it out of the main repo?
<holstein> the software?
<holstein> thats a deal breaker
<astraljava> We can as well pack up our things and go home.
<ScottL> holstein, a packages status in the repository will not change
<holstein> when JACK got promoted or whatever, that really helped
<ScottL> ailo, can you explain what type of user you envision using ubuntu studio?
<ailo> ScottL, I think universally.
 * ScottL has been thinking about the multimedia distro ecosphere lately
<ailo> ScottL, That's been my focus all along
<holstein> ScottL, ailo, astraljava ... can we just do LTS releases?
<ScottL> ailo, so you expect the audience to inexperienced to experienced as both linux users and musicians, is that a fair representation?
<holstein> and email to that effect just came through...
<astraljava> holstein: No, cause that way we won't get enough feedback for the next one.
<holstein> feedback?
<holstein> wheres the current feedback?
<astraljava> What works, what needs to get rid off...
<astraljava> Wherever Scott, you and ailo have been getting the comments from.
<ScottL> we haven't really been receiving much, if any, feedback except bug reports
<ScottL> astraljava, what sort of user do you expect for ubuntu studio?
<ScottL> holstein, can you answer the same question as above?
<astraljava> But you guys are all the time going over these "US sucks, they do this they do that, what the hell?!"
<ScottL> astraljava, i think those are mainly in other IRC channels
<astraljava> That's feedback.
<astraljava> Not direct, but still.
<astraljava> If we only have LTS releases, there's like 18 months of silence, during which we have to guess.
<astraljava> Then there's the devel progress of vanilla.
<astraljava> Let's face it, we're heavily leaning on them.
<ScottL> astraljava, holstein, would you humor me and describe what user you see using Ubuntu Studio please?
<ScottL> not what you currently see, what you expect
<astraljava> Indirectly, as we're now more directly leaning on charlie-tca et al. :D
<astraljava> ScottL: Don't ask me, I'm the work-horse here. :) I'm just grateful it fulfills my need of providing a recording/slight mixing of my own stuff.
<ScottL> okay, i will share mine now then...
<ScottL> i expect newbies, both to linux and music, to use ubuntu studio from the ISO
<ScottL> i think those that become experienced will move to using vanilla ubuntu and installing their own packages, either the meta's or just packages
<ailo> ScottL, I think we should be able to give newbies what they need already from any Ubuntu derivative
<ScottL> i consider autostatic (and perhaps some here in channel presently) to be examples of the "experienced" users i described above
<ailo> We would only need one installable meta package in Software Center
<holstein> yeah... new folks to multimedia
<holstein> either in general, or from ubuntu
<holstein> or other linux's
<ScottL> ailo, i have thought for some time that we should improve the process to "upgrade" from ubuntu
<astraljava> Really.
<astraljava> Moving to base from Xubuntu.
<astraljava> That's almost as if you're installing from a separate .iso.
<astraljava> You first spend 700MB of bandwidth of downloading the vanilla.
<astraljava> Then you probably spend about 600MB of downloading XFCE packages, plus all the multimedia packages.
<astraljava> And remove about half of the originally installed at the same process.
<astraljava> Well okay, maybe not that.
<ailo> I don't think a US meta package in software center should have any dependencies to UI
<astraljava> But still.
<astraljava> ailo: Really?
<ailo> Absolutely
<astraljava> What about the branding, then?
<ailo> It's enough with some subtle changes
<astraljava> We just decided to go with XFCE as a base.
<astraljava> Vanilla has GNOME3, remember.
<ailo> We can have that on the install iso
<ailo> But, we don't need to have XFCE as a dependency on a "global" ubuntustudio meta package
<astraljava> WHAT?!
<ScottL> astraljava, i think ailo means that if someone were to start with lubuntu it shouldn't pull other DE packages in
<astraljava> But you just stated we would go with one meta only.
<astraljava> ScottL: That's why we have separate metas for -sounds, -graphics etc.
<astraljava> -desktop brings in the desired DE.
<ailo> No, I stated that to get a newbie to get all they need installed, all that is required is one installable meta package in software center
<astraljava> But with only one meta, that cannot be delivered.
<ScottL> one meta to rule them all
<ailo> That meta package doesn't need to be all that is found on a US iso
<astraljava> HAHAHÂ½
<ScottL> astraljava, well one meta could depend on other meta's
<ScottL> thanks for laughing astraljava  :)
<astraljava> :D
<ScottL> perhaps ailo is suggesting a single meta package to facilitate installation for newbies
<astraljava> Okay, sure, that can be provided.
<ailo> I don't usually use software center myself, since I'm not a newbie
<ScottL> not as a packaging decision for us to put everything into a single package
<ailo> But, I assume that is the first place a newbie looks for stuff
<astraljava> But let me remind you, the more *new* packages we introduce, the more work there is to maintain them all.
<ScottL> a "ubuntustudio-installation-dummy" package
<ailo> So, if we are to help a newbie install stuff on their Ubuntu system, we need something in the software center
<ScottL> ailo, i had thought originally that -controls could do this
<ailo> ScottL, To be available in the software center, you mean?
<astraljava> I don't get it. Is Software Center really that different, from say, Synaptics?
<ailo> Or install stuff for a newbie
<ScottL> i would not say so, but i think "software center" becomes a metaphor for installing packages without using terminal
<astraljava> Oh okay.
<ailo> The only app I can find in software center, ubuntustudio related, is ubuntustudio-controls
<ScottL> but also synaptic is not being shipped on ubuntu discs anymore i believe
<ailo> Software center is more about installing programs, the way newbies think about programs
<ScottL> ailo, really?  you can't find any meta packages?  that is surprising
<ailo> It's not a substitute for synaptic, or apt. It's an abstraction
<astraljava> ailo: Really?
<astraljava> Then that's fucked up.
<ailo> It's meant for newbies
<ailo> Do any of you use it?
<ailo> I don't
<astraljava> But I suspected as much, as I couldn't find, for instace, sun-java6* in there, even though I had enabled partner repos.
<ailo> Why? Because it's slow and hard to navigate, since I already know how to use apt and synaptic
<ScottL> i think it also mimics an "app store", ala Apple
<astraljava> Oh _that's_ why!
<ailo> That's why an installable app there would probably be helpful for newbies. That's what I meant
<ScottL> i do not use software-center as a habit
<ScottL> i use terminal if i know the package name, synaptic when i do not
<astraljava> ailo: Thanks for this information! Will be valuable in the future!
<astraljava> ScottL: Really? That's what apt-cache search is for. :D
<ScottL> i occasionally use soft-ware center just to play with it from time to time, but i don't enjoy the experience i would say
<ScottL> astraljava, i have toyed with out apt commands, but tend to forget them because there really isn't much i install these days without knowing the name
<ScottL> s/out/other
<astraljava> Right.
<ScottL> but if we expect new linux users to use ubuntu studio then i would say the ppa is not the direction that would sufficiently support them
<astraljava> Indeed.
<ailo> The important packages for a "global" meta package, I do believe are: -lowlatency, -controls, and a showcase of applications.
<astraljava> For two reasons, that I can think of.
<ScottL> and unless we made a "ubuntu studio" meta-package then i would still posit that we are not sufficiently supporting them to upgrade from vanilla
<ScottL> it would appear the dvd is the closest we get to supporting newbies
<astraljava> ScottL: That was the whole point in the beginning.
<astraljava> "Download this .iso, burn it on a dvd, install, you're set."
<ailo> Or, install this one program in Software Center
<ailo> "program" I should say
<ScottL> i think cory would serve a different audience, but i have not heard him say so directly
<astraljava> The whole "download the vanilla, burn, get updates, install this meta-package by the package manager of choice [what do you mean 'What's a package manager?
<ScottL> this is inference from conversations
<astraljava> ...etc
<ScottL> i mentioned the multimedia distro ecosphere before...
<ailo> I'm of the opinion, that cory works from his own personal likes/dislikes
<astraljava> ailo:  You're right about there.
<ScottL> i presume that falktx has mentioned that he will be moving to arch linux for audio?
<astraljava> ailo:  And I understand what you mean with this single installable program.
<astraljava> ailo: It's just that we probably never get a consensus of what it should provide, exactly.
<ailo> astraljava, I don't agree. Some things are absolutely necessary, some are not that important
<ScottL> with falktx transitioning kxstudio to arch audio i began to explore which spaces different distros occupy
<astraljava> ailo: I didn't get that impression from the last time we talked about this, when we couldn't agree whether to settle on a mainline of professionals, or every bit of the sub-culture ones.
<ailo> astraljava, When it comes to workflows, I'm absolutely sure that we can find some standards to work from. Standards, not personal views
<ailo> That is how I think all together about this project
<astraljava> ailo: I'm glad to hear that. Like I said, I didn't get this the last time. :) Probably I was just too out of my head. :)
<ailo> Workflows should be based on either "correct" ways to do things, or very common ways to do things
<astraljava> ScottL: Do you have this exploration documented anywhere?
<ScottL> i don't have this documented anywhere
<ScottL> astraljava, perhaps i misunderstood, did you mean workflows?
<astraljava> Okay, well it would be good if you did, even on very high-level, for the discussion regarding who we're going to provide for.
<astraljava> No, the spaces that different distros provide for.
<ScottL> it's just my general, abstract observations and thoughts
<astraljava> If you call that workflows, then fine, I'm not an English-native. :)
<ScottL> falktx and arch provides for high-end, hands-on installation with high configurability...the really experienced people
<astraljava> ScottL: Nevertheless, extremely valuable in deciding the vector of where we are going.
<ScottL> a/v linux provides what we are trying to do but can do it better and more unified with packages we can handle
<ScottL> s/can/can't
<ScottL> i think the only user space not actively support is newbies
<holstein> yup
<ScottL> an unfortunate position perhaps
<holstein> i agree with that
<ailo> Ubuntu is really the best platform for that as is
<ScottL> i don't know how actively, recruit, or cultivate future contributors or developers from newbies
<astraljava> That's why we got the praise in that poll abogani linked to.
<ScottL> i don't remember that poll
<astraljava> http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/481201-the-2011-top-7-best-linux-distributions-for-you
<holstein> well... art of war... your strengths are your weaknesses or whatever
<holstein> we just need newbie coders too :)
<astraljava> And ponies.
<astraljava> Pink ones.
<holstein> eh... it could happen
<holstein> someone working on our stuff to learn something else
<ScottL> that poll may be biased
<astraljava> Yeah, but most of them are interested in vanilla.
<astraljava> ScottL: Certainly.
<holstein> astraljava: we would need to get some higher-ups to push them here
<astraljava> But at least someone out there appreciates our work.
<holstein> to help us, and learn
<ScottL> we have more publicity than a/v linux does
<holstein> yeah, for now
<astraljava> holstein: That's how I got here. dtchen forwarded me here.
<holstein> i remember harrison came around wanted to make ubuntustudio the platform for mixbus
<holstein> now, its AVlinux
<astraljava> That's _one_ recruit in 5 years.
<ScottL> going away for a bit, i'll be back in a bit
<holstein> ScottL: o/
<ailo> Was thinking more about workflows
<ailo> And about the "custom" panel that was planned for this release
<ailo> holstein, Have you been using ladish at all?
<ailo> I just installed it today. Haven't got around to try it yet
<holstein> nah... not yet
<holstein> i still just use JACK connect
<ailo> holstein, Cause, from what I understand, you can save all open apps and connections, and then just load them for next time
<holstein> thats the plan
<holstein> can we use it?
<holstein> is it in debian upstream?
<ailo> It's in the oneiric repos now
<ailo> repo*
<holstein> cool
<ailo> It would make sense to base audio based workflows on that. 
<ailo> All we need is saved templates for different types of audio work
<ailo> That would also showcase some applications at the same time
<ailo> Perfect for newbies, if you aks me
<astraljava> ailo: It would make writing the docs all the more easier as well.
<ailo> astraljava, I do think we need to start with documenting the workflows. Someone needs to create templates for different multimedia tasks, and write them down
<ailo> That's what I think
<ailo> I like the idea of having -controls as an indicator application
<ailo> An US-logo in the indicator tray
<ailo> And from a meny, you can adjust system settings
<astraljava> ailo: But we decided to drop -controls for oneiric, so that's gotta pass.
<ailo> Yeah, I know
<ailo> For next release though
<astraljava> Sure.
<ailo> Don't think we'll have any workflows ready before then anyway
<ailo> In practice
<astraljava> Probably.
<ailo> So, if we have some sort of a custom US panel, why not let it be toggable from the us-control-indicator-menu
<ailo> The panel could have a few controls
<ailo> Starters, I mean
<ailo> Like, "Start New Audio Project"
<ailo> And that would open a list of choices
<ailo> Templates
<ailo> = Workflows
<ailo> For audio, those would be mostly saved ladish projects
<astraljava> If that's workable with ladish, then why not.
<ailo> For graphics and video, I don't know
<ailo> That's not my field
<astraljava> But that would require dynamic menu entries, and I'm not sure XFCE provides that.
<ailo> The choices for "Create New Audio Project", "Create New Graphics Project" etc, could also be found in a submenu of the us-controls-indicator-menyu
<ailo> Not in the main menu. An indicator menu, or a custom floating panel
<ailo> At least in the indicator menu
<astraljava> Same thing really. It's what we have to live with.
<ailo> How is that the same thing?
<astraljava> Or are you suggesting we create a custom application, providing our own menu structures?
<ailo> I've been preparing for making ubuntustudio-controls be an indicator application.
<astraljava> Okay.
<ailo> I made a system settings type of us-controls for natty, but we never used it
<ailo> That would server as one of the choices in the menu
<ailo> serve*
<astraljava> Yeah, that could work.
<astraljava> I am just a newbie in XFCE, so cannot comment on that.
<ailo> I haven't used it since karmic
<astraljava> Probably not too hard to do, though.
<ailo> What UI do you use?
<ailo> KDE?
<astraljava> On the laptop I have Ubuntu Classic, on the desktop I have Studio 11.04.
<astraljava> So basically, GNOME 2.
<astraljava> But come Monday, I'm installing Xubuntu, Kubuntu, vanilla (with Unity and gnome-shell), lubuntu, debian sid, you name it.
<ailo> I'm on Oneiric now. Pretty happy with Unity, except for not being able to tweak some things (haven't yet got around to finding out how to do it). I also like Gnome3. I see why people are allergic to any Mac reference, but I find them to be great UI's
<ailo> Especially when we start using touch screens more (which seems probable)
<astraljava> No touch on Macs, really, so can't comment on that.
<ailo> And, I'm really starting to hate the mouse
<astraljava> I've hated it since 2005.
<astraljava> Even before, but couldn't really live without one before that.
<ailo> I like the scroll wheel. That's my favorite part on the mouse
<astraljava> Yeah it's alright.
<astraljava> Also, in some cases, the only way of doing c[opy|ut]/paste in *nix.
<ScottL> ailo, astraljava, i'm sure a menu entry could start lash and open a template
<ScottL> falktx would be a better resource however to answer confirm my thought
<ailo> ScottL, What thought is that?
<falktx> ScottL: hm, please explain
<ScottL> oh, sorry, talking about using the menu to "start a new audio application" using a template
<ailo> ScottL, You mean, "Start a new Audio Project"
<ScottL> whether the menu is the conventional menu or one provide a system tray indicator menu
<ScottL> ailo, aye, yes...my apologies
<ScottL> falktx, can lash be started and open a template from the command line?
<falktx> ScottL: well, for starters, lash is not working on oneiric at all
<falktx> maybe you mean ladish?
<ScottL> err, i mispoke again, falktx, yes i meant ladish
<ailo> ScottL, No conventional menu. My idea is to have a submenu to a us-controls-indicator menu that has "Start New Audio Project", "Start New Graphics Project", "Start New Video Project". And, if we have a floating panel, a custom US dock, we could have those there as well
 * ScottL apologizes as he's doing dinner with family and trying to read backscroll and type
<ScottL> falktx, is it possible to start ladish and open a template from the command line?
<ScottL> if so, this will certainly facilitate ailo's desire to provide an abbreviated way for new users to start projects
<ailo> ScottL, This is the easiest way I can see making practice of workflows
<ailo> falktx, ladish_control?
<falktx> ailo: ladish has a dbus interface, you should use that for development
<falktx> ailo: if you're going to use qt, you can easily wrap my klaudia widget into a window though
<ailo> falktx, You are welcome to help with -controls, if you wish
<ailo> falktx, I don't care if it's qt or gtk
 * falktx is developing systray.py, a cross-desktop systray implementation (gtk, qt, kde, app-indicator support)
<ailo> Sounds great
<falktx> ailo: I will release Klaudia (v1.0) very very soon
<falktx> ailo: I just need to get the website done (engine already completed) so the app has some docs when released
<falktx> ailo: if it's not too late, I would love to push it to debian -> ubuntu oneiric
<falktx> ScottL: ^ 
<ailo> falktx, I believe it's too late :(
<falktx> really?
<falktx> :(
<falktx> persia: you're the ubuntu guy right? can you comment on this?
<ailo> Oneiric is behaving strange. Banshee will block audio for flash-plugin
<ailo> Both using PA
<ailo> Banshee is behaving strange, perhaps
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-14
<falktx> ailo: but how do the *-controls packaging works?
<falktx> ailo: let's say US has a new release ready, would it be able to be pushed to the repos?
<falktx> (release of the *-controls)
<ailo> falktx, -controls was removed, since it has not been updated. So, I don't think you can upload it after feature freeze. I'm not sure tbh
<falktx> this sucks
<falktx> ailo: so basically all the work we can do right now is the meta-packages?
<falktx> ScottL: did you reviewed that xfce menu patch?
<falktx> I see the problem here...
<falktx> ...everyone is busy with their own lives
<falktx> we should ask canonical to paid a member of US for full time development
<falktx> there's nothing to lose in doing so, right?
<falktx> at least we try
<ScottL> falktx, i did not finish reviewing the xfce menu patch because i could not get the xfce menu to misbehave
<falktx> ScottL: oh, so you're happy with the current implementation?
<astraljava> falktx: Why do you need a website for the docs, when there are manpages and infopages available?
<holstein> ...and wikis... dont forget the wikis..
<astraljava> falktx: oneiric, way too late.
<falktx> astraljava: because I want to make a PDF doc for it, and it has to reflect the content on the website
<falktx> astraljava: the website is actually a wiki by itself
<astraljava> falktx: Okay.
<astraljava> It'll have man/info -pages too, right?
<astraljava> Cause if you want it to debian, it's gotta have.
<falktx> haha, yes, debian and it's man pages
<falktx> astraljava: the app does not listen to any cmd arguments though
<astraljava> Yeah. I'm not too sure about the requirements, then. I'm afraid they're gonna require man or info pages anyhow. Could be wrong, though.
<falktx> astraljava: afaik, if it doesn't exist, they will "automatically" create one for me ;)
<astraljava> Oh that's cool.
<falktx> ok, basic info added now:
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications:Klaudia
<ailo> falktx, The licensing part for the applications shown in Kladia does not seem right
<ailo> "open source" is not a license
<ailo> Or even a type of license
<falktx> ailo: "license" might not be the best string there
<falktx> ailo: it's just to say wherever it's open, freeware, shareware or demo
<ailo> falktx, "open source" will not tell you if it's free or not. That's what I mean
<falktx> ailo: ah, yes, but what can I use then?
<falktx> GPL, LGPL, BSD, etc is no go, user will be very confused
<ailo> falktx, You could use "free"
<falktx> ailo: there is already freeware
<falktx> freeware != open
<ailo> falktx, Not freeware. License type = free
<ailo> Free as in free speach
<falktx> ailo: I believe opensource it's better. there is not a single "open but not free" in there
<ailo> falktx, It's not correct though
<falktx> yes, but users will understand
<ailo> falktx, You'd rather use slang?
<falktx> this is a too technical situation a small app like this should not care about
<falktx> maybe I should change the string "license"
<falktx> release model?
<ailo> falktx, I think you are creating misinformation, even when you want to do something good
<ailo> misinformation is never a good thing
<falktx> ailo: please help me pick a new string to replace "license" then
<falktx> "release model" sounds good to me
<ailo> falktx, It might be better to use a symbol that represents "<something> approved" as a link, that shows what sort of licenses those are
<ailo> I mean, the link could open a dialog, or a web page where all licenses are explained
<falktx> really?
<ailo> falktx, Why not?
<falktx> isn't that just too much?
<falktx> ailo: the webpage explains it
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications:Klaudia
<ailo> falktx, But not correctly
<falktx> I just have to change the "license" name
<falktx> ailo: imagine if that field had writen "release model", would it be fine then?
<ailo> falktx, Out of respect for the licenses, I would really take care to inform the user correctly on those
<ailo> Why not use <license>+"kx-approved" that points to a link. In the link you explain kx-approved means the license is free as in free speach. And then you give a list of all licenses that are kx-approved.
<ailo> GPL "KX approved"
<falktx> ailo: but then freeware is not a license as well
<ailo> falktx, That's true
<falktx> so I guess I need to change that string anyway
<ailo> falktx, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_and_open_source_software
<ailo> "FOSS"
<ailo> Or "FLOSS"
<falktx> again
<falktx> ailo: but then freeware is not a license as well
<falktx> I can change opensource to FLOSS, but my guess is that some people don't know what it is
<falktx> newbies...
<ailo> falktx, Just provide a link
<ailo> Takes 1 min to find out
<falktx> what if the user has no internet atm?
<falktx> this means an internal dialog, more work for me...
<falktx> license should not be explained, users usually don't care if it's open or not, just that it works
<falktx> being open it's just like a bonus in this case I guess
<ailo> falktx, Can't say I approve of your lazy attitude towards these quite important details
<falktx> ailo: the thing is, I don't really believe this is *that* important
<ailo> falktx, I can see that
<falktx> I only added that field because I added some non-free content to my repos, otherwise it will all be free
<falktx> ailo: what about this:
<falktx> license -> Free & Open Source
<ailo> falktx, "Free & Open Source" is grouping two categories together
<ailo> One of them free, one of them open source
<ailo> And some are of course both
<ailo> Or, I guess, free is always open source
<ailo> But open source is not always free
<falktx> ailo: see^ this is what I'm talking about
<falktx> a small app like this should not confuse users with this
<falktx> I think I'll stick with 'release model'
<ailo> falktx, FLOSS is a correct term. You can write it as "FLOSS (free)"
<falktx> if the user wants to know more, he can check the website
<ailo> falktx, The website is not explaining it correctly either
<falktx> ailo: yes yes, I'm saying cause I'll fix it
<ailo> falktx, Sorry, I was wrong about one thing though. "Free and Open Source" == FOSS
<falktx> ailo: I think you understand that is a too much technical matter that most users don't care about much
<falktx> even I
<falktx> I don't care if it's BSD, GPL, LGPL or whatever, as long as it's open
<ailo> falktx, You have a responsibility to inform them correctly
<ailo> falktx, The user does not care of course.
<ailo> Anyway, I'm not a license expert
<ailo> falktx, If you would use loose terms, that are non-technical, I would use "free" and "non-free"
<falktx> ailo: I want to inform the user about the license, in 4 ways possible:
<falktx> free & open source
<falktx> free but closed
<falktx> closed, demo but functional
<falktx> closed, demo restricted
<falktx> ailo: ^ this is the 4 "licenses" I show to the user currently
 * astraljava grumbles
<astraljava> Anyone got an oneiric system up and running, up-to-date as well?
<falktx> I never even tried
<falktx> too many changes in oneiric
<falktx> specially multilib
<astraljava> Yeah okay.
<astraljava> It seems I have to wait until tomorrow to see why we're having these sick and twisted dependencies and packages in the first place drawn into our image.
<falktx> maybe an alpha iso is good, I doubt current/live ISOs are installable
<astraljava> falktx: I'm not looking into a usable system, but something that could query the package database, as package.u.c is conveniently not working right now, and I'm definitely not going to install now over this 3G when I can wait until tomorrow for a real line.
<astraljava> I can, but I wouldn't want to. :)
<ailo> astraljava, I'm on oneiric
<ailo> astraljava, What do you need?
<ailo> bbs
<astraljava> ailo: I'll have to compile all the suspicious packages into a list, and then see where they come from. But it's gonna take some time.
<astraljava> TheMuso: What does that "No space left on device" mean? What device?
<astraljava> TheMuso: Sorry, I'll elaborate. our daily failed to build, and it looks like that's the reason.
<ScottL> astraljava, oh, that is unfortunate news as i was downloading the latest daily image
<ScottL> astraljava, are you actually in correspondence with luke or do your queries remain unanswered?
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> astraljava, holstein, ailo: i would like for us to further consider a few points based on our conversation yesterday
<holstein> sure... whats up?
<ScottL> i believe we agreed that our target audience should be people unfamiliar with linux and/or recording music
<holstein> yeah, the new user, for the most part
<ScottL> but this will require a commitment from each of us
<ScottL> a perfect plan without effort will still fail
<ScottL> i would like to see what we can accomplish in this direction until at least the next LTS version
<ScottL> but i would feel more comfortable about our station if others are in agreement, both in body and spirit :)
<holstein> ScottL: you mean with the new user plan?
<holstein> i mean, we're not going to break it for the savvy folk
<holstein> is there opposition to this?
<holstein> you say cory doesnt argree?
<holstein> agree*
<ScottL> that is a multifaceted question
<ScottL> i _think_ that cory may not agree with this audience
<holstein> and thats fine
<holstein> right?
<ScottL> he is certainly entitled to his opinion
<ScottL> but others others appear to support this audience
<ScottL> i _think_ cory would prefer that we move to the "ppa method"
<holstein> i can get with that too
<ScottL> i am unsure why he appears to desire as he does *shrug*
<holstein> but, not now
<holstein> its too late
<holstein> i mean, its never too late...
<holstein> but, we did already decide to release
<ScottL> my previous statement is based on previous conversations as long as a year ago
<holstein> unless we are all in agreement
 * falktx - although busy, wants to tell that he wants to help too
<ScottL> our mantra should be how can we best serve the user, in terms of what is being provided and what we _can_ provide
<ScottL> thanks falktx  :)  you are amazing by the way, brilliant
<holstein> i think the new user struggles with parts of the installer
<falktx> hehe, ScottL, you rock sir
<holstein> also, i think its unclear how similar ubuntu and ubuntustudio are
<falktx> holstein: US should have a wiki!
<falktx> a good wiki
<holstein> falktx: lol... thats all we got is wiki's
<falktx> not the one Ubuntu provides
<ScottL> holstein, an intro that launched directly after installation would help explain some convinient facts for new people
<falktx> holstein: I mean, the website itself should have a built-in wiki
<holstein> the new user doesnt know about them... thats another issue
<falktx> ScottL: oh oh, I can easilt make that
<falktx> but then, so as ailo
<holstein> i see bascially 3 users in #ubuntustudio
<falktx> ScottL: what about a wizard like app with screenshots?
<holstein> the normal user with questions about JACK or whatever
<holstein> then, the guys that dont know how the installer works
<ScottL> falktx is a possibility
<holstein> 3rd at the somewhat savvy ubuntu users setting up a dualboot 
<holstein> they dont understand that the packages are the same
<ScottL> holstein, what if we eliminated the installer
<ScottL> ?
<holstein> ScottL: thats what im thinking, and proposing
<falktx> ScottL: that is very easy to do with Qt, and you can program it with a gui
<holstein> no installer... just packages to add
<holstein> no installer issues, or maintanance
<falktx> heh, US needs an ISO...
<holstein> arguably a more consistent experience
<ScottL> a last point that cory may or may not agree with is that we (the team) have not maintained the development momentum to complete our goal
<holstein> ScottL: i thought that was cory's point in the email
<holstein> we are not going to make the iso goal
<ScottL> we may not
<ScottL> that is ture
<holstein> like now... the iso is broken
<ScottL> true
<holstein> i dont know jack about how to fix it
<holstein> and cant help at all
<ScottL> holstein, i believe astraljava is trying to actively look into the broken iso currently
<holstein> and thats great, but should that be one persons responsibiliy?
<holstein> can we maintain that?
<holstein> this is what i mean when i say all we do is put out fires
<ScottL> i do not know that it will require constant attention
<holstein> if we didnt build an iso, we could maybe focus on other more manageable tasks
<ScottL> we are certainly suffering to effects of significant changes to the seeds
<ScottL> i would not expect that will be a common occurrence for every phase of every cycle
<holstein> and just have a community spin or 2 hosted on the site
<ScottL> holstein, then we would need to develop other means to build the images then
<holstein> yup
<holstein> falktx could have one, you make one
<holstein> whatever...
<ScottL> i've also been thinking about studio bugs...
<holstein> no official image
<holstein> i think that 'respin' idea might get folks into US more
<ScottL> most aren't ours, we could easily be aggressive and change who is responsible on the bug
<holstein> if a community poped up around it
<ScottL> but this will not support new users though, holstein 
<falktx> hm, sorry, but I really think stop making an ISO is a really bad idea
<holstein> ScottL: they will add the packages
<holstein> and they have more options as far as images to try out
<ScottL> ubuntu is known to be friendly and accessible for new users
<falktx> I really appreciatte a light US system that contains good stuff
<holstein> falktx: i agree, actually... but, if we cant do it, we cant do it
<ScottL> we have inherent branding on this then
<ScottL> holstein, i think we can
<holstein> me too
<ScottL> we have squandered months of this cycle not aggressively fixing things
<ScottL> i don't think the system is broken or the idea is unjust...i just think WE failed
<holstein> but, theres an email that says "we are not releasing an iso"
<ScottL> myself most of all
<holstein> i think that needs to be addressed
<ScottL> holstein, do you mean cory's email?
<holstein> yup
<ScottL> i thought that it said we were considering not releasing it
<falktx> we should at least try
<falktx> damn, what is so wrong with the iso that it doesn't even build?
<holstein> Producing a Ubuntu Studio install disk must stop. Even now, in the
<holstein> middle of a cycle.
<ScottL> falktx, i agree that we should still support the ISO images
<falktx> holstein: why do you think so?
<ScottL> falktx, i would speak with astraljava about the images, he has more experience and first hand knowledge about this particular breakage
<holstein> falktx: thats from the email
<holstein> i think we can make an iso
<falktx> oh, right
<holstein> i just want to transition to a live installer
<falktx> live installer would be tricky
<falktx> and is not possible at this point
<falktx> we need custom artwork, text, and send them to the ubiquity team at least
<falktx> some new package "ubiquity-ubuntustudio" would be required
<holstein> falktx: this doesnt have to happen right now, for sure
<ailo> I would like to help with the iso. I've only just begun reading about how that works though. But, anything I can do to help, just let me know
<ScottL> holstein, astraljava , ailo , falktx :  cory's email does require a response from at least some of us
<ScottL> if only to say that some people DO support keeping the ISO images working
<ScottL> i will also respond later
<holstein> i decided not to respond, but i can...
 * falktx adds to the TODO
<ailo> I'm still wondering about what the problem is with the iso, and if anyone is qualified to handle that properly
<ailo> As long as we have one person who knows how to make it work, that should be enough
<falktx> yep
<falktx> I have no idea how Ubuntu makes those isos... :(
<holstein> ok... im out...
<ScottL> holstein, as long as we keep it civil and uninflammatory
<ScottL> on the mailing list
<holstein> i think i did alright
<ailo> Looks good to me holstein 
<ScottL> ailo, the problems with the ISO might just be dependencies or it could be some anomalies derived from within the build process
<ScottL> ailo, however i would suggest that if other alternate build are being built correctly then it is probably the former
<ailo> ScottL, How much are we able to change concerning package selection at this point?
<ailo> ScottL, If it's a matter of broken dependencies, something to do with gnome2, or obsolete software, we should be able to solve that pretty quickly, no?
<ScottL> ailo, my understanding is that we have a considerable amount of autonomy for our packages
<ScottL> therefore i would say that if we can identify the problem we can correct the situation without reproach
<ScottL> although that latitude might diminish the closer we approach the release candidate
<astraljava> ScottL: Did you get the email regarding the build of dailies? I'm not still very sure how to read them, but it seems that the amd64 version was fine. I believe Luke has been sleeping for a while now, but will probably reply when up again.
<astraljava> The deal with the .iso currently isn't particularily rocket science. What it needs is daily care, that's all. Something I haven't been able to do, but will hopefully be from now on.
<astraljava> Images are built almost every day, so you make changes to the seeds, and see during the following night how they worked.
<astraljava> Also, you can setup the procedure on your own machine, and I plan to do that during next week.
<astraljava> It's obviously not 100% similar to the builders @ Canonical, but close.
<astraljava> I haven't felt doing it so far, while missing a real broadband line,
<astraljava> but as I'm getting one tomorrow, then that's another problem solved.
<astraljava> However, taking up the live-cd job, like was already suggested, is gonna take a lot more work.
<astraljava> Granted, there are three alphas every cycle, and two betas, plus countless dailies.
<astraljava> So in theory, once you (okay me, maybe someone else, ailo perhaps?) read about how that is done, it shouldn't be too hard either.
<astraljava> Regarding the commitment on the devel cycle, ScottL is right. That's something that needs to be happening, or we don't release. Now I know that we can decide not to release anyway, too.
<astraljava> And that's fine. We can do that.
<astraljava> However, the one after this is the LTS. We _want_ those out.
<astraljava> IMNSHO we should practice now, so we get it right for the LTS.
<astraljava> I thiny my monologue is over, for now.
<astraljava> think*
<ailo> astraljava, I'll have a look at that tomorrow. I would like to set up that on my own machine.
<astraljava> ailo: I'll be looking at this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement
<ScottL> astraljava, ailo, holstein: we might need to make adjustments to priorities and expectations for the next LTS release
<ScottL> it is possible that we may not be positioned to make 12.04 (the LTS release) a live dvd
<ScottL> i say this since we are still working on integrating the xfce transition
<ScottL> it might be possible in the next two months to complete the integration but i do not have confidence at this point that we will
<ScottL> and we might spend appreciable time in 12.04 to complete this
<ScottL> astraljava, i haven't looked at the email at this point about the cd image but i shall this afternoon
<astraljava> ScottL: The only big thing about it was just the "No space left on device" part, and I'm assuming that's got nothing to do with us, really.
<astraljava> Otherwise it looks like the images are there, but I don't wanna try to download until tomorrow.
<holstein> i started adding to the wiki page cory made
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/NewStudio
<falktx> holstein: needs some syntax fixes
<ailo> Again, there's a notion that we won't need a custom kernel
<ailo> Which sounds great, if it's true
<holstein> ailo: i added that
<holstein> about the kernel
<holstein> i'll believe it when i see it... personally
<ailo> holstein, As long as -generic is not able to deliver fool-proof low latency, I don't see how we can survive without a custom kernel
<holstein> ailo: its still down the road for sure
<holstein> i just dont think we need to take kernel creation and maintenance to an extreme since its probaly going to be ok for use to just use the -generic one soon
<holstein> debian is already doing that
<ailo> holstein, What do you mean, debian is already doing that?
<holstein> ailo: debian has no realtime kernel
<holstein> the debian multimedia team
<ailo> holstein, They never had
<holstein> ailo: i thought they did...
 * holstein shrugs
<ailo> I need to try some testing with -generic and changing the cpu governor settings
<ailo> I'm not expecting any miracles though
<ailo> holstein, -lowlatency is far from extreme. 
<holstein> several OSMP'ers are using -generic
<holstein> say its going well... even firewire users...
<holstein> im still on -realtime in lucid
<ailo> holstein, We need facts to proof anything. So far, the numbers speak clearly agains -generic
<ailo> -lowlatency is -generic, but with a few extra configs
<holstein> i really started to take notice with one particular USB device i have that works *so* much better with -generic
<holstein> its odd
<holstein> but, thats not what i find with firewire
<ailo> holstein, Did you try with -lowlatency?
<ailo> The older kernels are starting to be really old
<ailo> Anything older than 2.6.38 doesn't count
<ailo> In my book
<ailo> Or, 2.6.39 really
<ailo> Since it introduced the rtirq thing
<ailo> holstein, On Debian I tried the -generic. It sucked bigtime
<ailo> On Squeeze
<ailo> Then I built 2.6.38 from source, with -lowlatency config
<ailo> Same as, or better than -realtime
<holstein> ailo: i want to say yes
<holstein> but its been a while
<holstein> im pretty sure i have all 3
<holstein> maybe the PAE on that machine too
<astraljava> Debian has -rt kernel in testing now: http://packages.debian.org/wheezy/linux-image-rt-amd64
<holstein> interesting
 * astraljava hopes next week will be easier than the past few
<astraljava> I didn't get anything done that I was supposed to
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-06
<scott-work> good morning everyone
<len-dt> GM
<scott-work> has anyone made any plans to test the 12.04.1 images?
<len-dt> If someone helps me notice they are there, I will test.
<scott-work> hehe, i was just looking for that without seeing you type that...
<scott-work> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/precise/dvd/
<scott-work> i believe this is it^
<scott-work> since i really haven't set up my audio machine again, i will probably test this as well
<scott-work> it has been requested that we test the image by the end of the week
<len-dt> scott-work, I didn't realize there was daily builds being done... in fact the whole .1 set up is not something I know about.
<scott-work> i speculate that it hasn't been being built since release, most likely it was just started recently
<len-dt> I will download and test.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-07
<len-dt> micahg, Scott asked me to test lts.1 but there seems to be no i386 ISO
<micahg> len-dt: the i386 builder is offline ATM AIUI, maybe check in -release
<len-dt> That would explain things.
<astraljava> I'll do some testing on the amd64 tonight.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-08
<aaguilar> hi there
<aaguilar> have a question about ubuntu studio
<aaguilar> i got the message  jack can only be configured with a loaded and stopped studio please create a new studio sound does not work 
<aaguilar> what is this? 
<aaguilar> internet says should have ladish studio not jack
<aaguilar> how can i make sound work? thank you very much
<scott-work> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/precise/dvd/20120807.1/
<scott-work> len-dt: ^^^
<scott-work> that has both amd64 and i386
<scott-work> len-dt: do you have both types of computer to test?
<scott-work> i also presume that we should report this on iso.qa
<len-dt> I have downloaded the i386 version as I have no 64bit machines.
<len-dt> I will test as soon as I can
<scott-work> yes it is on qa.iso tracker
<scott-work> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/204/builds
<scott-work> len-dt: i will handle the 64bit then
<len-dt> scott-work, when are they freezing 12.04.1 for testing? Downloaded the ISO installed. Got the live OKed but by the time I did the install the da tracker was out of date... new image out.
<len-dt> Or are we supposed to test daily?
<scott-work> kate only mentioned that we test it this week, i'm not sure actually
<knome> ohai scott-work 
<scott-work> seems like the images (and therefore test cases) are changing daily, just report the ones you can and they should look at the test results over time
<scott-work> hi knome, how are you doing my friend
<knome> i thought 12.04.1 was freezed already
<knome> sc
<knome> scott-work, great! bought a new ultrabook!
<scott-work> that sounds ultra-fantastic
<scott-work> :)
<knome> it is, quite
<knome> works super fast with ssd
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-09
 * ckontros waves
 * ckontros will be back to hang out at a better time. :-)
<ScottL_> aw, cory is gone
<ScottL_> i'm curious to what he thinks about 12.04
<len-dt> ScottL_, ok i386 tests done for today.
<len-dt> ScottL_, Just looking at the video meta in seeds. Are you sure we should split this one? There don't seem to be that many differences to make it worth while.
<ScottL_> len-dt: i don't remember the video seeds currently, are we splitting it into pro and home? is it just noted that it _should_ be split?
<len-dt> ScottL_, Ya, there are two groups of apps marked home and pro.
<len-dt> The note says:
<ScottL_> it should actually be split into two meta though, i beleive
<len-dt> # packages for future (precise+1) video-pro task/seed
<len-dt> # (duplicates from above commented out)
<len-dt> There are only two extra apps in home.
<len-dt> Does this mean splitting the menu as well?
<len-dt> Or to ask another way... are we splitting out things like audacity as home audio and ardour as pro?
<len-dt> ScottL_, ^^
<len-dt> ScottL_, My opinion is that there is not enough difference to make a split worth while.
<len-dt> That dvdstyler (or something like it) is just as likely to be used professionally as at home. (think wedding videos)
<len-dt> That leaves openshot as the only difference.
<ScottL_> len-dt: if you install the video meta you get all the apps
<ScottL_> home and pro
<len-dt> also micahg says that a new binary would have to be reviewed which is why we did photography and publishing at the same time
<len-dt> Yes right now, but not if we split it.
<ScottL_> len-dt: but you did that for quantal, correct?
<micahg> sorry I haven't gotten to that yet, I need to get some help with it
<len-dt> Yes. I am talking about quantel
<ScottL_> oh, i thought you were asking about 12.04.1 :P
<ScottL_> my bad
<ScottL_> for quantal, i think we probably should be splitting it up, but i'm not sure quite yet
<len-dt> ScottL_, the only thing I can see to possibly do for precise was the menu fixes, but I think it is too late now.
<ScottL_> or maybe for quantal+1 we should split it up and leave quantal as is
<ScottL_> len-dt: yeah, precise.1 is good at this point
<len-dt> ScottL_, we are not overflowing with people
<ScottL_> aye, that is true
<len-dt> ScottL_, are you still thinking of trying kdenlive?
<ScottL_> i am, it is a really robust non-linear editor
<ScottL_> much better than ralph gives it credit
<ScottL_> openshot is pretty good too, but it _does_ lack some key things that kdenlive does
<ScottL_> but kdenlive just has sooo many extra libraries
<len-dt> ScottL_,  it would mean a lot of libs I think.
<ScottL_> blender does a pret+
<len-dt> I have added it to extra software in video though.
<ScottL_> blender does a really good job of certain things that neither kdenlive or openshot can do
<ScottL_> but blender also sucks at UI and making things easier for people to use (like HD video)
<ScottL_> the lesser of three evils is still openshot sadly
<ScottL_> but kdenlive really rocks, if it wasn't for the extra libraries it would be preferred hands down, i beleive
<len-dt> ScottL_, I don't know that we will get workflow selection back this cycle. maybe wait for that to happen
<ScottL_> i'm using kdenlive currently for the youtube minecraft series i am doing with my son
<ScottL_> len-dt: i think that is okay, emmit said some stuff was happening anyway that might change it
<len-dt> It may be a good idea to go through the blue print as mark some things postponed ...
<ScottL_> and astral.java, who started it last cycle, hasn't been active lately (i _think_) so it would probably be kinda iffy-squeezy to get it done anyway
<ScottL_> len-dt: good point
<len-dt> ScottL_, I find myself looking at a lot of things and wondering if I should even start.
<len-dt> I have been "cherry picking"
<len-dt> Doing what I find easy
<ScottL_> hehe, yeah i understand
<ScottL_> i'm going to be getting more involved again...either next week or the following
<ScottL_> i've started getting other things lined out and progressing so my time should be freeing up again
<len-dt> A lot of the thing I am marked for inprogress are commited just not uploaded.
<ScottL_> that is very good as well :)
<ScottL_> len-dt: one thing we might think about...is how can we improve ubuntu studio upstream
<ScottL_> meaning, can we articulate ask any upstream people to make change(s) that will help ubuntu studio
<ScottL_> ?
<ScottL_> for example, blender absolutely provides better multicam support by simply (not that this is the only thing) allow to monitors to be shown on the screen which will each display a different video clip
<ScottL_> s/allow to monitors/allowing two monitors
<ScottL_> if they could just unfek themselves with making it easier to import or use video clips, that alone would go great lengths to making it more palatable for everyday people
<len-dt> ScottL_, It would take someone using the SW for their own projects.
<ScottL_> i'm going to start making a matrix of what openshot, kdenlive, and blender can and can't do, what they do well and don't do well
<len-dt> I personally would not be able to explain what was needed.
<ScottL_> len-dt: that's one facet of what i'm doing currently
<len-dt> It was suggested that the place to fix xchat was upstream. (but still in ubuntu)
<len-dt> Putting a hook in so that each flavour could add their channel.
<len-dt> Ubuntu does so in the source right now.
<len-dt> A hook could add things from a system config.
<len-dt> The feeling is that it would be easier to maintain than a file in /etc/skel where I had it.
<ScottL_> goings to bed
<len-dt> GN
<astraljava> Just a heads-up, new alsa-lib and alsa-utils are landing on quantal soon.
<astraljava> scott-work: Did you just make the CD image build emails through?
<astraljava> s/make/"whatever is the appropriate verb here"/
<kubotu> astraljava meant: "scott-work: Did you just "whatever is the appropriate verb here" the CD image build emails through?"
<astraljava> shuttup kubotu 
<scott-work> lol kubotu 
<scott-work> astraljava: yes, i just clean out the queue for the mailing list and approved all those CD image build notices
<scott-work> were they for quantal or precise?
<scott-work> oh, a mixture
<scott-work> i expected the precise ones as len had reported only some 12.04.1 images were available
<len-dt> scott-work, I was told the whole i386 building was broken.
<scott-work> len-dt: for quantal or precise?
<len-dt> everything for a few days.
<astraljava> scott-work: I just wondered why they were stopped this time.
<astraljava> As they were not very long, in fact only a few lines, according to my mutt.
<scott-work> len-dt: i would like to bounce some ideas off of you for work flow support when you have a few minutes
<len-dt> scott-work, ok.
<scott-work> oh, hehe, didn't think you would be ready that quick, let me handle one thing and i'll be back in 15 secs
<scott-work> len-dt: okay, here's what i'm thinking (and i almost wish i had worked something up visually first)
<scott-work> one of my concerns is making it as accessible or intuitive or immediate as possible
<scott-work> so i'm thinking about the panel as a dock thing
<len-dt> Ok, so you are talking workflow from a GUI POV
<scott-work> and rather than have a single menu entry on that, for which you would be present with Audio, Video, etc on the first level
<scott-work> perhaps breaking these out into each category so we would have a "audio menu" icon, a "video menu" icon, etc
<scott-work> and that's great for some "less branchy", more "linear" work flows, maybe for video or graphics or whatnot
<len-dt> scott-work, that would not be hard.
<scott-work> but what about audio when you have perhaps four or more (making up numbers) work flows
<len-dt> I think with audio we could break that up too and have more than one icon.
<scott-work> i wonder if we could have perhaps separate menu icons for "audio menu #1 - record real instruments" and "audio menu #2 - electronic music generation"
<len-dt> Those two get used together a lot.
<scott-work> this doesn't molest the main menu (leaves it original) but makes it very accessible and based on work flows
<scott-work> len-dt: yeah, that might not have been the best example to show the difference :P
<scott-work> and we can easily include the same apps in various "work flow menus" then
<scott-work> we could even label the icons like the old microsoft word icon looked: http://rocketdock.com/images/screenshots/word-5.png
<scott-work> maybe
<len-dt> You might have composing, recording, effects rack, live sound.
<scott-work> ooooh, that sounds good
<scott-work> yeah, yeah
<scott-work> again, it's immediate and intuitive
<scott-work> to icons: we could use A in a box for audio menus, V in a box for video, etc
<scott-work> maybe for audio we can use A with subscript C for composing, A with subscript R for recording, etc
<len-dt> We would want to keep the icons not too small then.
<scott-work> maybe even the subscript letter not really fully subscript, just smaller and slightly overlapping the A as if it is in front and on top
<scott-work> but not too large either, right? :P
<len-dt> maybe 32bit?
<len-dt> When I was testing 12.04 before release I was using 24 bit and it was ok on my netbook.
<len-dt> when I installed I left the size but moved it to the side.
<scott-work> we can try it and see what it is like
<len-dt> 36 looks ok. I thnk it depends on how much is in the panel.
<len-dt> scott-work, I think we need to be careful we don't over load the panel
<len-dt> if there are too many icons there it becomes cluttered
<scott-work> len-dt: i guess i am envisioning less than ten icons, do you think we would need more
 * scott-work admits he hasn't really quantified anything at this point, more of just brainstorming
<len-dt> There are some other things on the panel besides work flows, trash, terminal, files etc.
<len-dt> xchat and browser could be removed (I guess terminal too)
<len-dt> but I think a user should not have to access trash and other files from the desktop.
<scott-work> okay, we minimize the number of other icons to trash and file manager (nautilus in this case), perhaps with a seperator between the work flows and these?
<len-dt> Sure.
<smartboyhw> Hi!
<scott-work> hi smartboyhw !
<scott-work> i see you got my email :)
<smartboyhw> Yep!@
<scott-work> how do you want to help ubuntu studio?
<smartboyhw> Dev, bug, (especially) testing
<scott-work> oooh, testing :)
<scott-work> we always needs people helping with testing
<scott-work> smartboyhw: do you do any coding?
<smartboyhw> Some, but only fixing bugs. Don't tell me to do big ones, I am bulls..t
<smartboyhw> scott-work: There is a new bug team, am I right?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i believe so, i think ailo (and maybe len-dt ) helped set that up
<smartboyhw> Joined that one, doesn't know what it'll do.
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Who are the guys working for Ubuntu Studio?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: mostly i would say: ailo, astraljava, len-dt, micahg and me
<scott-work> although i believe ailo and len are doing the most work lately
<smartboyhw> Good, I know astraljava.
<scott-work> micah really has other responsibilities but helps us out with specific items and uploading to the repositories quite a bit
<smartboyhw> Do you have a list?
<smartboyhw> Or can I join? (Stupid question)
<scott-work> i'm just getting back involved after a few months hiatus
<scott-work> smartboyhw: we have a mailing list, did you mean that?
<smartboyhw> I remember you guys having who's doing what on the Wiki
<scott-work> specifically, there are two mailing lists: one for -users and -dev, i believe both are open to join
<smartboyhw> I am in both
<smartboyhw> I want to be responsible for QA
<smartboyhw> Testing = QA
<scott-work> we have this wiki page with members: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<smartboyhw> Yes, this one!
<scott-work> we would love to have someone help with overseeing QA and testing :)
<smartboyhw> Yep, I will do that.
<scott-work> but since ailo and len-dt really seem to be heading that up, i should defer to them
<smartboyhw> Hmm, what's the core team?
<scott-work> however, i should point out that we typically prefer people to establish themselves as active and effective before really accepting into any particular team
<smartboyhw> Yep, alright.
<scott-work> the core team are the ones who might be those with the most longevity or experience
<smartboyhw> Well.
<scott-work> i suppose that is one way to look at the core team
<scott-work> smartboyhw: here is what i would suggest, sort of a plan, to get involved with testing
<len-dt> Or just those who do something...
<smartboyhw> Oh, len-dt's here.
<scott-work> work with len-dt and ailo and get directly involved with testing
<smartboyhw> Downloading the Daily Build to test.
<len-dt> smartboyhw, what HW are you testing on?
<scott-work> we do the daily testing as needed, but we have monthly milestone testing as well (alpha1, alpha2, alpha3, beta1, beta2, rc)
<len-dt> 32 or 64 bit?
<smartboyhw> 64-bit.
<len-dt> smartboyhw, good.
<smartboyhw> Hopefully daily testing, but I still got Ubuntu Desktop to care.
<len-dt> I normally do a lot of 32 bit testing.
<scott-work> dailies are required, but we like to do them as needed for specific items
<scott-work> oops, should have read "dailies are NOT required"
<smartboyhw> 64-bit is better for me
<smartboyhw> ...
<len-dt> We need testing on both
<scott-work> the milestone testing is required by the ubuntu-qa team
<smartboyhw> I'm in ubuntu-qa, sort of.
<scott-work> we risk not being able to release for final if we start missing milestone testing
<smartboyhw> Don't worry, I will always test for milestones.
<scott-work> i need to get some work done at work, i'll be back on later
<smartboyhw> OK, bye, scott-work!
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Is is that we need to test for 12.04.1?
<len-dt> Ya, I did 32 bit yesterday. 64 is not done.
<smartboyhw> I will do the 64 ones.
<smartboyhw_> I am BACK!
<smartboyhw_> len_dt: You here?
<len-dt> smartboyhw_, yes
<smartboyhw_> Testing 12.10 64-bit daily now
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Why is the Quantal Daily Build's ubiquity all in black
<smartboyhw> you guys better redesign the UI.
<holstein> lol
<holstein> im sure its a glitch... our UI guy is MIA
<smartboyhw> OK, thanks
<holstein> but, it'll get sorted
<len-dt> We pretty much use whatever xubuntu uses.
<smartboyhw> MIA let's me think of CIA
<smartboyhw> L)
<smartboyhw> Anyone except scott-work know what is the new Bugs Team on Launchpad?
<smartboyhw> Hey, answer me, please. (This is bad etiquette of IRC)
<len-dt> He's not here for a few days.
<smartboyhw> OK.
<holstein> ?
<len-dt> ailo was doing that, he set it up.
<holstein> smartboyhw: check out a few things if you dont mind
<holstein> !patients | smartboyhw 
<len-dt> He is out of network reach for a few days.
<holstein> !ask
<ubottu> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) See also !patience
<holstein> !patience | smartboyhw 
<ubottu> smartboyhw: Don't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. While you wait, try searching https://help.ubuntu.com or http://ubuntuforums.org or http://askubuntu.com/
<holstein> if you are joking, put a smiley there
<smartboyhw> Wow, don't put so many warnings to me
<holstein> smartboyhw: its not a warning, its a request
<smartboyhw> Ok.
<holstein> smartboyhw: i for one very much appreciate your help testing iso's and we need the help
<holstein> smartboyhw: len-dt is a very busy guy, as is scott-work
<smartboyhw> Still testing, installing Daily Build Quantal amd64 Ubuntu Studio
<holstein> as far as dealing with bugs, you can do that if you'd like... anyone with an LP account can "help"
<smartboyhw> ...Yeah, just a bit ?ed of it's existence
<holstein> we dont have anyone besides scott-work and len-dt doing much with bugs.. other than offical higher-ups that we bother
<smartboyhw> holstein: Why is there only you on the Support team in:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<smartboyhw> !patience | smartboyhw
<ubottu> smartboyhw, please see my private message
<holstein> smartboyhw: we dont really have a team, we are quite small right now
<smartboyhw> ...
<holstein> smartboyhw: which is a good time for someone such as yourself
<holstein> you can add yourself to the team,a nd start helping
<smartboyhw> Ok, I will add myself to the support team.
<holstein> smartboyhw: helping test the iso's is very nice!
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I am actually ver new here too.
<holstein> smartboyhw: i am the one that tries to hang in the IRC channel and make contact with everyone i can
<smartboyhw> Wow, everyone's new!
<smartboyhw> idding
<holstein> smartboyhw: len-dt is are heavy lifter... scott-work is the organizer and team lead, and he does a little bit of everything else
<holstein> knome did most of our site, and is helping us tremendously from team xubuntu
<holstein> astraljava too helps US tremendously
<smartboyhw> OK, I have put myself in the support team to start with.
<smartboyhw> Go to :https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure to check
<holstein> smartboyhw: that is easy... you can hang in the IRC channel #ubuntustudio , and just "be there" really
<smartboyhw> Yep.
<smartboyhw> If ailo approves, I will enter myself in the Testing Team
<holstein> just say something when you can, and try and help... make is see like we are not dead, which we are not
<holstein> smartboyhw: ailo will.. i think he has been out for a bit
<smartboyhw> Don't worry, I will be good.
<holstein> smartboyhw: you might want to review the code of conduct
<smartboyhw> I have signed it
<holstein> cool!... welcome aboard!
<len-dt> you can add yourself to the testing team, but be aware that the testing ailo has in mind is not just ISO tests.
<smartboyhw> Don't worry, I can do OTHER tests.
<len-dt> We actually want to test various system "tweaks" for audio/MIDI/video improvements
<smartboyhw> Added myself to testing team. Also I can test tweaks, but don't tell me to code a lot
<smartboyhw> OK, finished testing, passed in ISO tracker.
<holstein> no one will tell you to do anything...
<smartboyhw> Yep.
<holstein> we'll have tests, and ailo will ask.. politely
<smartboyhw> Is ailo not polite at all?
<holstein> yeah... he will ask that way... no one sill say you have to, or tell you to do anything
<len-dt> There are none of us who code a lot.
<smartboyhw> Who's the real people who do the coding of the main thing?
<len-dt> I was about to say I didn't see it in the tracker but hen noticed I was looking at 12.04.1
<holstein> smartboyhw: len is the most like what you are asking
<holstein> smartboyhw: the packages get built.. ubuntustudio is ubuntu
<len-dt> We for the most part are takeing packages and putting them together.
<holstein> they come in, and we organize... or we dont...
<smartboyhw> holstein, len-dt and scott-work: Thanks!
<holstein> the iso testing is important
<smartboyhw> Yep.
<holstein> we dont get to have the iso's built and be official if we dont test them
<smartboyhw> Will try to focus on testing. 
<holstein> if we miss a testing cycle or 2, it would just fade away
<scott-work> smartboyhw: holstein made a very good point, most of what we use is maintained by others, there are only a few ubuntu studio specific packages that we maintain
<scott-work> therefore we don't do massive amounts of coding
<len-dt> mostly script at that.
<smartboyhw> Noticed: There are four columns in between the time and the Username in the top bar
<smartboyhw> And it's completely blank
<holstein> scott-work has taken on the lowlatency kernel... we didnt have anyone to maintain a proper kernel, so he just took it on himself, and maintains it, with help
<smartboyhw> Should I file a bug?:)
<holstein> smartboyhw: for? 12.10?
<scott-work> smartboyhw: those "columns" are the virtual desktops available to you
<len-dt> Those are workspaces...
<smartboyhw> I mean in the UI, 12.10
<scott-work> or workspaces (which is probabl the proper term) :P
<len-dt> Open an app  and then click on one of the empty spaces.
<smartboyhw> Ah! Thanks len-dt
<len-dt> workspaces allow workflows (like audio work) to have more desktop space.
<scott-work> funny story about workspaces: i had dual monitor set up and each workspace in the panel became HUGE
<len-dt> For example I have qjackctl and the hardware mixer on one desk, sound gens in another and a tracker on the third.
<scott-work> to match my "extended" desktop
<scott-work> took up huge amounts of panel space
<knome> scott-work, but of course :)
<scott-work> knome: you laugh, but i thought something was wrong at first
<len-dt> scott-work, set them up as one above the other...
<knome> i don't laugh... ;)
<len-dt> then they would get skinnier
<scott-work> i need to restart my work computer
<smartboyhw> scott-work's back
<len-dt> shhh, he's supposed to be working :)
<smartboyhw> ...sorry, on what?
<len-dt> actually to be honest, I don't know what he does for a living.
<smartboyhw> !?!?!?!?!
<len-dt> I happen to on holidays myself right now.
<smartboyhw> I'm almost going to sleep
<len-dt> So I work as daycare 
<len-dt> I just got up TZ -7 here
<smartboyhw> TZ +8
<len-dt> Ah, was that you who posted in the email lias t then?
<smartboyhw> !?
<smartboyhw> ?, len-dt
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i do not make a living working on ubuntu studio
<knome> smartboyhw, please try to use less of the ?!'s
<scott-work> i have a regular day job that pays the bills and makes my wife happy (by paying the bills) and hopefully puts my kids through college
<len-dt> smartboyhw, There was someone posted a how can I help on the mailing list.
<scott-work> hence, i am scott @ work or scott-work
<smartboyhw> Oh!
<smartboyhw> len-dt: That's me
<len-dt> Ok, good now I have connected the two in my mind.
<smartboyhw> Where's astraljava?
<len-dt> tz +2 or so.
<smartboyhw> But he isn't away...That's weird
<knome> +3 currently.
<smartboyhw> +8
<knome> he probably has other things to do then
<len-dt> smartboyhw, many of us leave IRC on so we can see what was going on when we are not watching the screen.
<smartboyhw> ...
<len-dt> Some are more quick about using away than others. I am mid
<knome> others are automated, like me ;)
<knome> if i don't set away manually, it will be set after 30mins inactivity
<knome> same goes for unawaying; if i send enough messages to a network, i'm autounawayed
<knome> that
<len-dt> doesn't seem to be enough yet... you are still "away"
<knome> that's why i am away now, but probably not a while later
<knome> yeah, the limit is 25 messages
<knome> (in 30mins)
<len-dt> Does xchat do that?
<knome> or 15...
<knome> i don't know, this is a self-written irssi script
<knome> (now i am not away, automatically :))
<smartboyhw> knome: You have a good bot/IRC client
<knome> one more thing i could implement is a setting to either count or not count private messages
<smartboyhw> Wow, #ubuntustudio is real quiet.
<len-dt> Yes, I have seen 24hour log files empty.
<knome> smartboyhw, yeah, well, it's about 10 years of usage and writing scripts myself to do what i want it to do
<smartboyhw> Do the Ubuntu Studio team have meetings?:)
<holstein> smartboyhw: anyone can call a meeting
<len-dt> sigh...
<holstein> we are overdue, and i think it would be great if you wanted to call one!
<len-dt> There has not been a meeting for a long time.
<smartboyhw> No, I don't, I have Ubuntu QA Meetings to due with
<knome> same goes for xubuntu too.
<smartboyhw> At least not on Wednesdays.
<smartboyhw> What other flavors of Ubuntu do you guys us?
<holstein> we are on more of a call them as needed plan
<smartboyhw> Who wants to call a meeting?:)
<holstein> smartboyhw: i use ubuntustudio 10.04 on my production machine
<holstein> i test other versions as-needed of course
<holstein> ailo and I are the unofficial firewire testers :)
<holstein> smartboyhw: you can call one if you'd like
<len-dt> My Yf uses vanilla, both of mine are ubuntustudio, current release.
<smartboyhw> OK, let's call one!
<smartboyhw> When is the best time?
<len-dt> :)
<len-dt> That is the problem
<smartboyhw> Hmm.... It must be on #ubuntu-meeting
<len-dt> We have been doing adhoc meeting on the fly as needed.
<smartboyhw> Monday 14:00UTC?
<len-dt> What are we going to talk about?
<smartboyhw> Hmm... Updates on 12.10 progress????
<len-dt> I would wait till ailo shows up again at least. He has been very active.
<len-dt> The webpage is mostly his work
<holstein> im using debian stable mostly these days
<smartboyhw> Added to Fridge Calendar: Ubuntu Studio Meeting 13/8/2012 1400UTC #ubuntu-meeting
<smartboyhw> Send your items to add in the agenda to the dev mailist
<holstein> smartboyhw: thanks!
<len-dt> I will be around anyway.
<smartboyhw> I need to sleep. Bye!
<len-dt> good night.
<scott-work> len-dt: just for the record, i am a supervisor for an engineering department with quasi-manger responsibilities
<len-dt> I think I knew some of that, I didn't think it was my place to pass it on though.
<scott-work> oh :)  thanks
<len-dt> scott-work, thinking about the letter icons... I don't know if that is really intuitive.  Picture icons can be mixed too.
<len-dt> Really short workflows can be letters like VJ perhaps.
<len-dt> If I didn't think it may confuse people I would turn off desktop icons.
<len-dt> Oh, I did already.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-10
<smartboyhw> hi!
<smartboyhw> Hello falktx.
<falktx> hey
<smartboyhw> Are you a team member of Ubuntu Studio in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure, falktx?
<smartboyhw> I don't think so.
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Well, depends. https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+members#active says he is.
<smartboyhw> Yep, I am not even in that.
<falktx> I'm on -dev at least
<smartboyhw> Someone get me on -dev
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Know what's on the Launchpad -bug team?
<falktx> It's not my call, I think scott is the one who decides that
<smartboyhw> Yep
<astraljava> smartboyhw: If you intend to do development regarding this flavor, then you have to talk to ScottL or scott-work (he alternates with those nicks). That team has some uploads privileges, so it has some pre-requirements, though. Be patient, show initiative and understanding of processes regarding the distribution development.
<smartboyhw> I know, he's not here.
<ailo> smartboyhw: Have a look here https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-quantal-flavor-ubuntustudio
<ailo> smartboyhw: If you find something you'd like to do, that no one yet has set out to do, own it and do it
<smartboyhw> ubuntustudio-q-documentation for me.
<smartboyhw> But how to own it?
<ailo> smartboyhw: I'm the doc lead on Ubuntu Studio, so in that case, we should probably discuss what you would like to do
<smartboyhw> Oh, which one is not owned?
<ailo> smartboyhw: I've taken on most documentation tasks, if you take a look inside it. My launchpad nick is ailo.at
<smartboyhw> I know, I mean, which one can I take
<ailo> smartboyhw: I've taken on most of those tasks, but as I said, we should probably discuss what it is you would like to do
<ailo> smartboyhw: What kind of documentation?
<ailo> User documentation, I presume?
<smartboyhw> ailo: 1. What do you mean? 2. What is the new Ubuntu Studio Bug team on Launchpad?
<smartboyhw> ailo: User doc is good for me.
<ailo> smartboyhw: The Ubuntu Studio bug team is a new team, but it is not active yet. There's a technical problem to be solved with the ubuntustudio-bugs mail list first
<ailo> Meant to be an open team which anyone can join
<ailo> Managing bugs is something anyone can help with
<ailo> smartboyhw: We would like to add user documentation to the web site. Right now, there's more or less zero docs of that kind. So, if you feel up to it, you are free to start working on that. 
<smartboyhw> I will start with installation, can I?
<ailo> There are installation instructions, but quite basic. And I would like that page to remain like that
<smartboyhw> Oh...
<ailo> It can always be improved on, I'm sure
<smartboyhw> What do you want me to work on, then?
<ailo> In depth docs can always be put in the wiki
<ailo> Well, we need a guide for new users. How to start jack and use it with some applications
<ailo> Really for all the areas. 
<ailo> audio, video, graphics, etc. 
<ailo> Problem with other things than audio is that at least for me, will require research, since I don't do that stuff a lot
<smartboyhw> Other than audio then.
<ailo> Monitor calibration might be something you'd do for graphics and video. Also, video drivers would be important
<smartboyhw> BTW, ScottL should be at the meeting now.
<smartboyhw> Where is he?
<ailo> smartboyhw: He's not around much
<smartboyhw> He's supposed to report to the releases meeting now...
<astraljava> smartboyhw: You have to let go of that attitude. People are here mostly on a voluntary basis. It means we cannot always dedicate time when the paid people do.
<ailo> I'm sure smartboyhw was just wondering where he was
<smartboyhw> OK, sorry, just wondering...
<ailo> smartboyhw: So, what are you doing other than Ubuntu Studio docs right now?
<smartboyhw> Ubuntu Testing.
<ailo> smartboyhw: I'm also sort of taking the lead on Ubuntu Studio testing. Both testing and docs. len-dt is the person who has done most of the testing so far, though
<ailo> smartboyhw: One way to prepare docs would be to do them on Google docs, and share them once you've come up with something
<smartboyhw> I know you're head of testing.
<ailo> I'm not going to do user docs until I've done a few other things first
<astraljava> ailo: I am doing the QA lead on Xubuntu. Want me to take care of that here, too? I mean since Scott is away quite a lot recently.
<smartboyhw> len-dt does 32-bit. I do 64-bit.
<ailo> astraljava: Fine with me
<smartboyhw> YEAH!
<astraljava> ailo: I mean I don't want to step on your toes here, but just thought whether you'd like to streamline it.
<astraljava> And of course we have to talk to Scott about it, too.
<smartboyhw> I've talked to Scott and len-dt yesterday, that's why they let me in.
<ailo> astraljava: I don't think anyone else is doing that, so should be no problem with anyone. My area of testing is strictly based on tweaks and system settings. Counting xruns, etc
<smartboyhw> len-dt does 32-bit ISO testing, I do 64-bit ISO testing.
<smartboyhw> i'm in the testing team already: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001714.html
<astraljava> ailo: Yea, we're not crossing each others' responsibilities too mcuh.
<smartboyhw> Sorry, wrong link
<smartboyhw> I mean in here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Yes, so as we talked already on -testing, have you learnt how to file results of daily testing on iso.qa.u.c yet?
<smartboyhw> Yep, I did it for at least 50 times.
<smartboyhw> :)
<ailo> smartboyhw: I can't speak much for the traditional testing bit though, since that is not what I'm doing actually. As for doing the testing itself, I think mainly len-dt has been doing that. And the testing that I'm working on, a bunch of scripts, will need as many machines as possible once it's done. Probably by this weekend
<ailo> I'm only testing system settings and tweaks
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Ok, did you say you tested yesterday? 9th of August?
<smartboyhw> Yep
<smartboyhw> ailo: That's why len-dt let me in.
<smartboyhw> ScottL wanted somebody to do the testing.
<astraljava> I'm not seeing any results on either arch.
<smartboyhw> Go to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/08/09/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html
<smartboyhw> Well, I did.
<smartboyhw> Quantal one.
<len-dt> ailo, smartboyhw he was lloking for results on 12.04.1 
<astraljava> ailo: I'd like to start writing some testcases based on your testing, I got into the team that has access to the tracker testcase admin panel.
<len-dt> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/204/builds
<smartboyhw> Oh, I don't, astraljava
<smartboyhw> astraljava: I did test for Quantal amd64 yesterday
<smartboyhw> I will do some 12.04.1 in the coming weeks, don't worry
<ailo> astraljava: I'll let you know when the scripts are finished. I also need to document what they do
<astraljava> smartboyhw: That's what I was looking at.
<smartboyhw> Hmm.... I will file the results of a 12.04.1 build tmr.
<smartboyhw> I like 12.10 more, so I didn't do much focus
<smartboyhw> ..
<len-dt> astraljava, when is the 12.04.1 release date?
<smartboyhw> August 23rd
<smartboyhw> Beta 1 September 9th
<len-dt> I wonder when freeze is then
<smartboyhw> Beta 2 Sep 27th
<smartboyhw> len-dt: You mean which freeze?
<smartboyhw> Yeah! Scott!
<len-dt> freeze for 12.04.1
<smartboyhw> 12.04.1 FinalFreeze on August 16th.
<smartboyhw> !patience
<ubottu> Don't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. While you wait, try searching https://help.ubuntu.com or http://ubuntuforums.org or http://askubuntu.com/
<astraljava> len-dt: Anything you're particularly worried about?
<smartboyhw> He's worrying about the dev process:)
<len-dt> astraljava, not for 12.04 just that I want to know when I can test something that won't change the next day ;P
<smartboyhw> len-dt: :)
<scott-work> good morning, everyone
<len-dt> We haven't really changed anything in 12.04
<astraljava> len-dt: Oh, well then you'll likely have to wait until the day before release, or even later. :)
<len-dt> gm scott-work 
<scott-work> my day has started in a lovely manner. nothing like two hours meetings right off the bat ;)
<scott-work> hi len-dt 
 * smartboyhw waves at scott-work
<scott-work> hi astraljava, i haven't seen you in a while, it's good to see you :)
<scott-work> hi smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> scott-work: astraljava took over the daily ISO testing work:)
<astraljava> scott-work: Yep, life's crazy.
<scott-work> astraljava: mine too, my friend, but apparently i relish the chaos
<astraljava> smartboyhw: You're reading that wrong, I most certainly did not.
<smartboyhw> ..
<scott-work> ooooh, drama!
<scott-work> i tuned in at the right time apparently :)
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Testing of a distribution is way too vast a task for one person. I'm only going to help in coordinating the quality assurance process. It's very different from "taking over" the testing.
<astraljava> scott-work: Nah, just the enthusiasm of the youth, that's all. :)
<smartboyhw> scott-work: NO drama.
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Yep, you coordinate, I do the testing of 64-bit, len-dt will do the 32-bit.
<smartboyhw> ..
<smartboyhw> !patience | smartboyhw
<ubottu> smartboyhw, please see my private message
<len-dt> scott-work, I would really like to see the commits so far uploaded so we can see what they look like.
<smartboyhw> Yeah!
<len-dt> My guess is that anything for 12.04.1 is considered more important right now though..
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Will start doing testing of Precise Builds tmr...
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Ok, thanks. Make sure to post the results on the iso tracker.
<smartboyhw> OK, I will.
<astraljava> I'll try to get some testcase by Beta-1 for QQ, not sure if I'll have time for 12.04.1, though.
<astraljava> testcases*
<smartboyhw> Can I do some for 12.04.1?
<len-dt> astraljava, I think for 12.04.1 we are just looking for regression. We haven't added/changed anything.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: So it is actually the original build.
<len-dt> smartboyhw, with the changes the default brings in.
<astraljava> len-dt: True, but it'd help if we actually gathered a wider testing userbase.
<smartboyhw> It's only len-dt, astraljava and me now. Let's ask balloons and phillw to join:)
<len-dt> Any package that has been upgraded for precise will show up. There are almost 200 changes.
<astraljava> I think the defaults don't apply nearly at all for Studio.
<smartboyhw> And of course ailo
<astraljava> smartboyhw: They have their hands full of other work, but we have our mailing lists to advertise, which I intend to do when I get more work done on the cases.
<scott-work> len-dt: re: uploading commits - we can always see about getting these changes sponsored
<len-dt> Who would we go to?
<astraljava> -motu, -devel and -release, generally.
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Sponsorship/SponsorsQueue
<scott-work> len-dt: ^^^
<scott-work> i believe we can subscribe ubuntu-sponsors
<astraljava> Yes.
<scott-work> and then poke in -motu i presume
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Which one is the testing mail list?
<len-dt> Also, it is my understanding that the script that takes our seeds and make metas does not work right now.
<smartboyhw> ...
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Those were IRC channels, where we can go and ask once a bug has been filed, or branches updated.
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I think it would use -devel.
<astraljava> len-dt: Oh? Yes, that should be escalated. Why do you think that?
<smartboyhw> Why don't we create a channel #ubuntustudio-testing?
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Cause it doesn't generate that much traffic, so the discussion can easily be held here.
<smartboyhw> OK. I actually invited balloons to come here:)
<astraljava> What for?
<smartboyhw> For testing on Ubuntu Studio!
<smartboyhw> He only tried Kubuntu,
<astraljava> smartboyhw: balloons is not responsible for testing of all flavors.
<smartboyhw> I know.
<smartboyhw> I'm trying to lure him in...
<smartboyhw> Maybe we can get phillw?
<smartboyhw> Anyway, will try to test 12.04.1 whil writing for two blogs...:)
<smartboyhw> I mean tmr.
<len-dt> astraljava, I am confused about the last comment to me. Sorry
<astraljava> Well, people have their priorities and interests. Both of them are well aware of the whole ubuntu ecosystem, and most likely would be here if they wanted to. We don't need to try and have everyone who's something in the same places. We'd need to attract new contributors into the community, so that the existing ones won't burn out.
<astraljava> len-dt: Why do you think the meta creation isn't working?
<smartboyhw> Let me write a letter to the Ubuntu Testing team.
<len-dt> micahg said it was. 
<astraljava> Oh ok. :) So you don't just think that, then. :)
<astraljava> Well if it's known, I'm sure they'll fix it soon-ish.
<len-dt> astraljava, I am not sure on the blue prints if commited means done. I had called putting our channel in xchat done.
<len-dt> Then found out the way I did it was not the best.
<len-dt> So it went from done to in progress
<astraljava> len-dt: Usually committed means it's being done, but hasn't yet.
<len-dt> astraljava, Ok, that is what I have been doing.
<smartboyhw> Don't we have a Ubuntu studio testing team on Launchpad?
<len-dt> smartboyhw, we have just been using -devel.
<astraljava> Sorry for the lag, I'm on a bus and the "mobile broadband" in here is a joke.
<smartboyhw> Someone let me in the devel team!
<smartboyhw> I mean this: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-testers
<astraljava> smartboyhw: You are already on it.
<smartboyhw> I mean on the devel team.
<smartboyhw> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev
<smartboyhw> I am NOT in it.
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Please read what I already wrote about that about an hour ago.
<smartboyhw> Where's scott?
<smartboyhw> I need him to get me in the team...
<astraljava> smartboyhw: So far you haven't shown all aspects that go with the membership of that team. Please read again what I wrote, and think about the points.
<smartboyhw> astraljava: What are the pre-requirements?
<astraljava> smartboyhw: We're glad to see you contributing to the flavor, don't get me wrong. But you have to show that you understand the processes and responsibilities that go with developing a distribution (flavor).
<astraljava> smartboyhw: This does not happen over-night. Which is where we come to the patience point.
<smartboyhw> !patience | smartboyhw
<ubottu> smartboyhw, please see my private message
<astraljava> smartboyhw: You can query the bot directly, without having to post all that on the channel for everyone to see. :)
<smartboyhw> Sorry, don't know how to use the bot!
<smartboyhw> Actually, didn;t we talk about a meeting yesterday?
<astraljava> smartboyhw: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat#ubottu
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Thanks, but look at my question first. I think len-dt will know more about the question.
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Learning to use the documentation on help.u.c and wiki.u.c is a good skill to have when it comes to contributing.
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Yes, and I was just handing you information on using the bots.
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Didn't len-dt or scott-work tell you that we have called on a meeting on Monda at 12:00UTC?
<smartboyhw> I need to go to sleep. Bye!
<astraljava> smartboyhw: They don't have to tell me, I am on the channel and I do read the backlog.
 * astraljava wipes the sweat off of his forehead.
<scott-work> smartboy has been told multiple times that he will not be invited into the -dev team by several people
<astraljava> Ok, good to know.
<scott-work> and i believe reasons have been given in most occasions
<astraljava> No doubt.
<scott-work> he and i had a pm discussion where i explain it again :/
<astraljava> Sure.
 * len-dt has tried to ignore that part..
<astraljava> Well I think that was my first and last time.
<scott-work> agreed, i shall not do it again
<Mish> Sorry for the intrusion but can I know when in October do we have a new release?
<astraljava> Mish: All dates are on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule
<astraljava> Mish: So you'll see all the milestones as well. :)
<Mish> And studio gets released the same day as the other flavours?
<astraljava> Yes.
<astraljava> ...or that's the plan, anyway.
<astraljava> I think we once missed the ETA, but released a few days after.
<Mish> ok.. just wanted to say that I'll be busy for a few weeks now, but I'll try to finish all the icon making stuff by mid September
<astraljava> Mish: Sure. Are those icons for Studio only?
<Mish> yeah
<len-dt> astraljava, yes, they are for our extra menu categories
<astraljava> Then the freeze exception is a tad easier to get.
<Mish> freeze exception?
<len-dt> Mish, we are supposed to be beta by mid Sept.
<astraljava> Mish: Yeah, feature freeze is 23rd of August. But since it only affects one flavor only, it is very unlikely that they wouldn't get updated.
<astraljava> Mish: Don't worry, it happens all the time. Certainly not the first. :)
<Mish> Nah no worries here
<scott-work> hehe, very true, astraljava ;)
<astraljava> scott-work: On a scale from 1 to... being ScottL, how busy are you? Just thought if I should give you a hand and share the load on QA, by posting the -release mails, for instance?
<scott-work> astraljava: i'm pretty busy, but i'm getting more time for ubuntu studio, i hope this weekend is the last push for other things
<scott-work> astraljava: posting the -release emails would be extremely helpful though
<astraljava> scott-work: Alrighty. Just figured, as I'm doing it for Xubuntu, might as well do the similar thing for Studio.
<scott-work> astraljava: although i have given some thought to this, i'm wondering if we could "automate" this somewhat or provide a framework to help make it more efficient
<scott-work> eh, i have a business lunch meeting to go to now
<scott-work> be back in an hour or so
<len-dt> astraljava, that would be helpful.
<astraljava> scott-work: Generally I gather stuff from mailing lists and IRC channels. Something could be automated, for sure, but it's not all very straight-forward.
<astraljava> I'm running out of battery, so will soon drop off and come back later, just a heads-up.
<astraljava> What is the status of -lowlatency on PP? Does it need more love for 12.04.1?
<astraljava> I remember the stuff scott-work posted a few days ago, but I also seem to recall that the precise part was pretty vague.
<len-dt> I have heard that the kernel team will do one kernel.
<astraljava> Ok, that's good. Let's wait a while, we have a few days.
<len-dt> I think the idea is that they will help train someone wilst they do so.
<astraljava> Right. I'm still interested, and I'm sure ailo and scott-work are, too.
<len-dt> (cause it hasn't been getting done as it was supposed to.)
<astraljava> Yes, true.
<astraljava> I remember there was some talk about cooperation when precise was released, but things sort of fell apart.
<astraljava> Alright, back later.
 * len-dt waves
<scott-work> i probably should email the list about the kernel but was waiting for something more definitive from apw, i'll probably poke him this weekend to check up on it
<scott-work> but the last thing discussed with apw was:
<scott-work> ukt would develop the lowlatency kernel for quantal
<scott-work> at some point (presumably before release) UKT will develop procedures for maintenance
<scott-work> at release USKT (ubuntu studio kernel team) would be responsible for lowlatency for quantal
<scott-work> during the time of developing the procedures, UKT would update lowlatency for precise
<len-dt> ailo, I was looking at adds for some high end laptops. And am noticing that some of them come with only USB3 ports or at most 1 USB2 port. Yet there are no USB3 Audio IFs available.
<len-dt> It is my understanding that even the plug form factor is different. So USB units will not plug in.
<micahg> USB 3 is the same ports as USB 2 AIUI
<len-dt> My info might be wrong then. I have also heard some of the USB 2 audio IFs are getting new firmware to work with them
<len-dt> The pictures show 9 pins. But it looks like the sub 1&2 pins are still there.
<ailo> len-dt: Don't think usb3 is much needed for the kind of devices that are out now, since usb2 has enough performance. Would be gold however, if all devices would adhere to a standard, so that they all work with the same generic driver
<ailo> Got myself some more RAM, but my MB wasn't as well supporting as I thought. Seems I'm getting a new MB and Processor as well
<knome> heh
<ailo> I looked through the specs, and it should have been fine, but no
<ailo> No matter. I have an extra power supply, so I can keep the old system as a backup/server
<astraljava> scott-work: Ping apw re: precise, it's lagging behind badly. I mean, if you haven't. But thanks, that's how I recalled it going.
<astraljava> Downtime for website expected in approx. 7 hours, up to 12 hours. re: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2012-August/005922.html
<len-dt> ailo, my only concern with USB3 was that it has a different connector. But it appears that is a non-issue.
<micahg> astraljava: no, it's next weekend
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-11
<astraljava> micahg: Thanks, good catch.
<smartboyhw> Hi!
<smartboyhw> Hi!
<smartboyhw> Sent an email to the whole team about Monday's meeting!
<holstein> smartboyhw: the message i got was blank it seems
<smartboyhw> What??!!?!?!?!?
<holstein> smartboyhw: you are doing great in the support channel!.. thats what we need.. just a presence really
<holstein> so folks dont think we are dead
<smartboyhw> Ha!
<smartboyhw> I'm now helping out in Ubuntu TV.
<holstein> smartboyhw: try and keep it "a family show" over there in the chat room
<astraljava> Added the agenda at the correct place, but please note that I might not be able to attend, so I hope someone chairs it.
<len-dt> :)
<len-dt> No one was asked about the date or time... There is at least one person who it is convenient for.
<len-dt> Firefox branding is a pain. I can easily set the home page to ubuntustudio.org, but adding us to the bookmarks is something else. 
<len-dt> The system file shows an example of doing settings for preferences... It is all java script. But the bookmark are kept in a database (sqlite) so I am not sure how I would add bookmarks in java.
<ailo> len-dt: Is it part of the addon xul-ext-ubufox?
<len-dt> Ya, though there is one for without too.
<len-dt> The two places are /etc/firefox and /etc/xul-ext ailo 
<len-dt> ailo, I went through all the files in xul-ext-ubufox. I did not find where they put the bookmarks in.
<ailo> hmm
<astraljava> len-dt: I hear ya. :)
<knome> he must be shouting really loud then
 * stochastic looks forward to the monday meeting.  He'll try his best to wake up for the early meeting.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-12
<smartboyhw> HI!
<smartboyhw> Hi!
<smartboyhw> Hi falktx
<falktx> hey again
<falktx> smartboyhw: what's up?
<smartboyhw> Nothing, watching the olympics and chatting in #ubuntuforums
<smartboyhw> Wanna join the meeting on Monday?
<falktx> hm, what time?
<smartboyhw> 14:00 UTC.
<smartboyhw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2012August13
<falktx> ok, should be 1pm or 3pm
<smartboyhw> falktx: 14:00UTC is what time on your timezone?
<smartboyhw> Or what's your timezone?
<falktx> GMT 0
<falktx> I know it's 1h from UTC
<falktx> I always forget if back or forwards ;)
<smartboyhw> GMT = UTC
<smartboyhw> Learn some basic geography
<knome> HUH?
<knome> UTC doesn't follow DST, GMT does
<knome> please learn some manners, smartboyhw 
<falktx> I belive that too, knome
<smartboyhw> Sorry!
<falktx> it's very weird to have 2 standard times
<falktx> probably created by the same people who did miles and feet...
<knome> that's why i always refer to UTC
<smartboyhw> I use UTC
<knome> because you probably know if your country is DST currently or not
<falktx> I use GMT, since I know I'm 0 for it
<smartboyhw> knome: Don't forget to add things to the agenda
<knome> smartboyhw, i won't have things to add. i'm just helping US with website stuff, and that's pretty much done.
<smartboyhw> Thanks.
<len-dt> Wow, there is actually a ubuntu tool for making a default-settings package.
<len-dt> it is not very extensive but it does allow you to set some firefox defaults... not very well though.
<len-dt> I think I can start working on firefox branding for studio now.
<len-dt> ailo, astraljava should I have more than (or less) ubuntustudio as home page, a link on the bookmark bar and a bookmark in the bookmark menu?
<len-dt> BTW I notice our web page seems to have no icon to go with it.
<knome> oops.
<len-dt> The blueprint item suggests:forums, help.ubuntu.com, ubuntustudio.org, youtube studio channel?, mailing lists...I need URLs
<len-dt> knome no problem... it is sooo much better than what we had :-)
<knome> heh
<knome> what kind of firefox branding are you talking about?
<len-dt> Just adding ubuntustudio as a bookmark and maybe home page.
<knome> ok
<len-dt> The blueprints suggest some more things see ^^^ above.
<knome> i don't know if home page works, there might be some issues with mozilla
<len-dt> I set up a new user and seem to have it working.
<knome> i understood we couldn't use a google page with xubutnu logo as the default start page in firefox without an agreement with mozilla
<len-dt> Ya it works.
<knome> not the technical side...
<len-dt> This is just home page : ubuntustudio.org
<knome> yes.
<knome> but i don't know if you can do that legally
<knome> because you have the firefox branding
<len-dt> Normally after I go to a web page it's icon shows up in the bookmark.
<len-dt> I am not worried about the home page thing... the user will prolly change that
<knome> sure. the US website probably just doesn't have one
<len-dt> Should I bug it?
<knome> that would work, and feel free to set me as the assignee
<len-dt> K
<knome> that's a trivial fix, but will take some time after i do it for the IS to process
<len-dt> is knome the right name to use in LP?
<knome> yes
 * len-dt knows about delays
<knome> yeah, just sayin' :)
<len-dt> knomr bug is Bug #1035954 , it would not let me assign you
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1035954 in ubuntustudio-website-content "ubuntustudio web site is missing icon." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1035954
<len-dt> knome ^^
<knome> ta
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-05
<cub> smartboyhw, wasn't it you who posted https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bugs?field.tag=ubuntu-studio here a couple of days ago? I'm not sure on how to go about to test things there. Any hints?
<smartboyhw> cub, no not me.
<smartboyhw> And it's testcases NOT written.
<smartboyhw> cub, of course you can help write these:P
<cub> I wouldn't know where to begin so I focus on things I actually know so far. :P
<smartboyhw> zequence, how do you think we can write testcases?
<smartboyhw> Hey ttoine 
<ttoine> hello
<smartboyhw> May I ask why are the items in the webshop that expensive?:P
<ttoine> smartboyhw, ah you had a look
<smartboyhw> ttoine, yeah madeinkobaia gave me the lin
<ttoine> smartboyhw, it is the cheapest possible
<smartboyhw> *link
<smartboyhw> ttoine, :O
<ttoine> for tshirt, madeinkobaia and zequence asked me to use a quality cotton
<ttoine> but for the mug, it is the simplest product (there is only one mug on spreadshirt)
<ttoine> and of course, I don"t had any comminsion
<ttoine> commission
<smartboyhw> ttoine, OK fine.
<smartboyhw> When will it be ready for public?
<ttoine> I don't know. zequence ordered some stuff to check the quality, I think we are waiting for his feedback
<smartboyhw> ttoine, I heard he received his T-shirt already
<smartboyhw> And here's madeinkobaia !
<madeinkobaia> Yeah !
<ttoine> smartboyhw, and what does he think about it ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, I forgotten, check this channel's backlog in irclogs.ubuntu.com plz (it should be yesterday or the day before yesterday)
<cub> but the shop is live, right? Because I was about to place an order as well.
<smartboyhw> cub, yeah, the shop's live
<smartboyhw> So called private-preview:P
<cub> sadly it's kind of those prices for quality shirts with print in Europe. At least when I had a look around for other purpose some time ago
<smartboyhw> ttoine, question: Are the T-shirts made in China!?
<smartboyhw> That should be cheaper:P
<cub> ttoine, but how does it work with the site? I suppose they make some money of it, but it says on their homepage that each shop makes money too
<ttoine> smartboyhw, I don't know. I think that spreadshirt is a UK company
<ttoine> smartboyhw, I don't know how to use the channel backlog. I am not even sure that I have the right
<smartboyhw> ttoine, everybody can use it
<cub> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/04/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html
<cub> it's just a web page
<ttoine> cub, this is a soft opening so we can test the merchandise
<smartboyhw> Good job cub :)
<cub> ttoine, could we easily add other sizes? There *could* be females wanting to buy US shirts. ;)
<ttoine> but he doesn't speak about the product...
<smartboyhw> cub, +1
<cub> oh it was probably not the same date as I pasted a link to, it was just the one I had open
<ttoine> cub, you can select the size and color you want. at the moment, we don't have female shirt, but I can create them. first, I would like that madeinkobaia validate that it is possible
<cub> No you can only select Medium as the smallest size
<ttoine> I didn't see that...
<ttoine> maybe it is because the drawings are too big for s
<ttoine> or maybe, the size S is not available with the t-shirt used
<cub> My thinking was that they for some reason consider Small as not-a-men's-shirt
<cub> zequence	I got the Ubuntu Studio t-shirt today, and the mug is probably here already as well	13:50
<cub> zequence	I'll take a picture once I get the chance	13:50
<cub> zequence	the quality of the T-shirt is good, but I think we should offer a cheaper alternative too
<cub> from http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/08/02/%23ubuntustudio-devel.html
<ttoine> cub, available size depend on the type of shirt
<cub> ok
<ttoine> on spreadshirt, there are many brand of basic shirts, from different qualities
<smartboyhw> Hmm, we can even find ttoine's address:O
<smartboyhw> ttoine, Spreadshirt is actually German
<smartboyhw> http://ubuntustudio.spreadshirt.fr/shop/imprint
<ttoine> cub, thanks for the link. so the quality is good for the price, i guess
<ttoine> smartboyhw, why do you speak about my address ?
<cub> I rather pay a bit more for a shirt that survives the first wash than to have a sloppy tent after a couple of weeks
<smartboyhw> ttoine, because you should use one that isn't your actual home address (or office address, but not meaning fake)
<cub> ttoine, you are listed on the Legal Information page at spreadshirt
<ttoine> ah, of course, yes
<smartboyhw> This is particularly true for all designs found in the shop, as well as all elements used in designing the shop. 
<smartboyhw> ....
<madeinkobaia> ttoine cub smartboyhw: I ask myself how ubuntu manage to sale their t-shirts around 13â¬. Someone could contact them and see if there is a possibility to use their sales platform.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, that would be ttoine or zequence 
<smartboyhw> :P
<smartboyhw> I don't think we will be allowed to use their platform...
<madeinkobaia> smartboyhw: For sure, or I can do it to.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, maybe
<cub> Ubuntu probably got a good deal due to expected to sell large quantities
<smartboyhw> Since Kubuntu has it
<smartboyhw> But the Kubuntu items are discontinues
<smartboyhw> And only available for sale
<cub> If so, I want a http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=1006 with US logo. :P
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, I already had a chat about that with them
<ttoine> the difference is that they don't sell on shirt per month, as you can guess
<ttoine> once you have volume, you can decrease the price by buying stock
<ttoine> at the moment, it is done one by one
<ttoine> and as smartboyhw it is not allowed to use their platform
<madeinkobaia> ttoine: Ok, I understand now
<madeinkobaia> ttoine: I didn't knew you already contacted them.
<cub> I would rather not buy from the canonical.com either because of the hassle with customs and taxes
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, how do you think I have the legal right to create US merchandise ?
<ttoine> I have a signed agreement. It tooks monthes to get him...
<ttoine> otherwise I wouldn't have spent (and you too, by the way) to create shirts and mugs
<madeinkobaia> ttoine: US is don't supposed to be an "official" Ubuntu derivative. Its what I heard, maybe I am wrong in that case.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, it is an official Ubuntu derivative
<cub> but not covered by the trademark
<ttoine> by the way, if there are sales on the canonical shop it means that they are buying stock. We can't do that at the moment
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, as we use the word "Ubuntu" it is mandaroty to have an agreement. It is not related to be an official distro. for example, Ubuntu-fr needs the same agreement to make french merchandise
<ttoine> cub, Ubuntu Studio is a brand registered by Canonical.
<cub> Are you sure? http://www.canonical.com/intellectual-property-policy
<cub> Canonicalâs Trademarks (registered in word and logo form) include:
<cub> UBUNTU	KUBUNTU	EDUBUNTU
<cub> XUBUNTU	JUJU	LANDSCAPE
<cub> UBUNTU EDGE
<ttoine> actually, it is stated that any linux related stuff including the word Ubuntu is owned by  Canonical
<ttoine> Our brand is Ubuntu Studio. Ubuntu is registered, they don't need at all to register it
<cub> Ubuntu is registered if used with the font and associated logo
<smartboyhw> cub, there are Trademarks and Registered trademarks:P
<cub> "ubuntu" is a word that existed long before Ubuntu
<ttoine> cub, you are speaking about the drawings. I am speaking about the word itself
<cub> I speaking about both
<ttoine> cub, I think you don't know well trade rules and industrial properties ;-)
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu#Variantes_et_d.C3.A9riv.C3.A9es (its in french sorry) it is wrote "Les variantes reconnues par Canonical, mais non officielles sontÂ :" in the list there is an error, as I see Ubuntu Studio in it. Its not the first time I read this ambiguous between "Official" and "Recognized".
<smartboyhw> cub, but Ubuntu IS a trademark:P
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, now wait a moment
<ttoine> cub,  I will not provide you with all the long emails chat I had with the legal and marketing teams of Canonical
<ttoine> but I confirm that we need an agreement.
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, there isn't "official" derivatives if you call Ubuntu Studio "recognized" derivatives
<ttoine> even spreadshirt asked me to provide the agreement
<cub> I believe you. I'm not convinced you can trademark an special word.
<cub> "Ubuntu is an age-old African term for humaneness"
<cub> anyways
<ttoine> cub, you can register a word for an activity
<madeinkobaia> ttoine : I trust your judgment about that, no worries. I think globally, that there is something not really clear about Ubuntu derivatives, official or not.
<ttoine> ubuntu, when used around IT, Linux, PC, server and more around, is a registered trademark, and so, we cannot use it like we want.
<ttoine> madeinkobaia, I agree, this is not clear enough
<ttoine> cub, for example, ttoine is a registered trademark
<smartboyhw> madeinkobaia, normally, official is recognized
<smartboyhw> Ofc, some are more equal than others;P
<ttoine> cub, an example like yours: Oracle is a place, or someone, to speak about the future. the fact is that when it is related to databases, you cannot use it for free.
<cub> yes, when used in those areas. But it's not the word itself they "own".
<cub> but as for the shop, will US get anything from the â¬20 per shirt?
<smartboyhw> cub, I don't think so
<smartboyhw> We don't even have a bank account lol
<cub> As Spreadshirt slogan is "Create a design -> Upload your design -> Make money"
<madeinkobaia> cub: I believe that ttoine knows what he done. They will be certainly benefits for Spreadshirt (its normal) but not for us, as there is no profit margin differential.
<madeinkobaia> cub: So the price is for the production and the expedition. Now I also think its expensive but I don't know other systems who allow to not command products before sales.
<cub> Yeah the Ubuntu Developer Summit is online nowadays so we don't need to sell loads of shirt to send zequence to the next meeting. ;)
<cub> I think the price is standard for your own print on a quality shirt. If you buy a rock band shirt it's about the same cost and often they are crap after 2-3 washes.
<madeinkobaia> For sure :(
<smartboyhw> cub, LOL
<ttoine> cub, sorry for the delay, I am at work
<ttoine> We don't have any money on merchandising. the licence we have doesn"t allow it
<cub> no worries, so am I. :D you read up when you canâ¦or the next day from the logs during coffee breaks
<ttoine> actually, we might provide a very poor quality shirt around 5â¬ I think
<ttoine> but the cotton will be very cheap quality
<cub> Do they have lots of other merc stuff? Like hoodies and beanie hats?
<ttoine> we can do a lot of stuff
<ttoine> but only one by one printing at the moment
<cub> cool
<ttoine> When we will have some turnaround on the shop, I will ask spreadshirt if they can add some drawings to the embroidery base
<ttoine> so we can create baseball caps or other embroided stuff
<cub> I wonder how many US users there are
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-06
<OvenWerks> zequence: -default-settings and -audio-settings? My thought is that someone only installing graphics meta or photography meta may not want the audio tweaks.
<OvenWerks> Or maybe make it part of the audio meta itself.
<OvenWerks> I don't know if I would make the low latency kerenl an audio meat depends or not though.
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: good morning
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, good morning
<OvenWerks> evening here ;)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, good evening then:)
<OvenWerks> just waiting for our installer to get uploaded.
<OvenWerks> verbally wondering if we should separate out the audio settings from default.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, what are the changes?
<smartboyhw> I mean, of the installer
<OvenWerks> changes? it is a new package
<OvenWerks> (application)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh
<smartboyhw> You mean the application itself, damn:P
<OvenWerks> It takes a list of packages on the command line and gives the user a gui with them the user can choose from.
<OvenWerks> with different desktop files it can be used as a different installer for each menu.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, good
<OvenWerks> sort of like we were doing with USC but much much lighter
<OvenWerks> it is flavour agnostic.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, :)
<OvenWerks> It is now all gui except for the progress bar
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh
<OvenWerks> written in perl and uses zenity for the list gui and policykit for password.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, whoa!
<OvenWerks> I hope in the future to use the zenity progress bar as well.
<OvenWerks> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-installer for more info.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, :)
<OvenWerks> It is the first sw I have written from start to package.
<OvenWerks> (first man page I have ever written too)
<OvenWerks> Anyway, wife wants this computer so she can do some singing.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, LOL
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, the copyright file
<smartboyhw> in debian/copyright
<smartboyhw> It isn't machine-readable
<smartboyhw> And why is debhelper >= 5? :O
<smartboyhw> Why is architecture all?
<OvenWerks> arc is all becuase it is a script. Should work in anything.
<OvenWerks> lintian likes the copyright file
<OvenWerks> I am not sure how iwould make it machine readable
<OvenWerks> version 5 DH is what another package had... it could be 9 I am guessing.
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: can you point me to something that explains the copyright file machine readability?
<OvenWerks> Says machine readability is optional
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I don't think I will worry about those things at this time. None of them are broken or have bad policy.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, OK... But it's real weird to have low compat versions:P
<smartboyhw> And non-machine readable copyright
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, look at http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/debian-dir-overview.html
<smartboyhw> And http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/copyright-format/1.0/
<smartboyhw> I'm still thinking if it should be any or all
<smartboyhw> If I'm correct it should be any
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, also it isn't good to leave an empty Conflicts: fiekd
<smartboyhw> *field
<ttoine> zequence, are you here ?
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: arc "any" is for src that can be compiled for any arc, "All" is for a binary package that can work on all arcs. 
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, OK, but how about the copyright file?
<OvenWerks> The manual I turned up said machine readable was optional
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, but it's better.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, if I'm a Debian Developer, I would have rejected your package (due to low compat level)
<smartboyhw> Seriously, 5 is TOO low
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: there are two packages I would like to get out for 13.10... this one and -menu
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, micahg is your solution...
<smartboyhw> Or just ask the sponsors
<OvenWerks> what level would you like?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, at least 8. Preferably 9.
<OvenWerks> That I can change.
<OvenWerks> It seems that our other US packages need to fixed as well
<OvenWerks> Take a look at our settings for example.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, compat level you mean?
<OvenWerks> copyright
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, it's good if you can fix that. I can help too.
<OvenWerks> dh = 8
<OvenWerks> All of these US packages are created and maintained by people who normally don't package.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh
 * smartboyhw does package a lot:P
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, OK, I will start fixing once I've done kde-telepathy here.
<OvenWerks> So any package in our code section you wish to sugest a merge for, I will drop it in.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, do I have to? (I'm in ~ubuntustudio-dev)
<smartboyhw> Trust me for copyright files:P
<OvenWerks> If you can upload to our branch that is one less job for me.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, ofc:)
<OvenWerks> for dh version, do I have to have a 9.* version or can I use just 9?
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, 9 ONLY
<OvenWerks> settings has 8.1.3
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, you don't normally explicitly select a settings version...
<smartboyhw> For example, debhelper (>= 8.0.0) for 8
<smartboyhw> or debhelper (>= 9)
<smartboyhw> for 9
<OvenWerks> I mean our -settings package
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh, I mean debhelper version in Build-Dep of settings
<OvenWerks> I am looking at what other packages need fixing.
<OvenWerks> As I am suggesting we split -settings... it would be good to correct that and it's copyright stuff.
<OvenWerks> our -meta package should be arc all, not any I think.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, NO.
<smartboyhw> Never do that.
<smartboyhw> If you have packages that can't work on certain arch
<smartboyhw> Then doing all will cause disaster.
<OvenWerks> ok makes sense
<OvenWerks> Shouldn't all the list of applications be recomends anyway?
<OvenWerks> As depends, if the user removes any one package it would remove the meta
<OvenWerks> and all the programs on it.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, hmm........
<OvenWerks> In the seeds I have been trying to use recomends for that reason.
<smartboyhw> You don't want that for alsa or xfce I think
<OvenWerks> no.
<OvenWerks> I mean for like the audio meta
<OvenWerks> though some things are still hard depends like jackd
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, recommends is OK
<OvenWerks> but LMMS for example should not be.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, yes
<OvenWerks> a synopis of this discusion should end up in our ML
<OvenWerks> we could ask for volunteers to fix something in one package even.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, great
<OvenWerks> The meta depends thing should just go to zequence at this point as he did that package.
<OvenWerks> but the general package updating/fixing could be done by anyone.
<smartboyhw> Like me for instance:0
<smartboyhw> Oops, should be :)
<OvenWerks> I would like to get some of the new people who have offered to contribute doing something that makes them feel useful
<OvenWerks> You could "vet" their work...
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, sure
<OvenWerks> of course if there are no takers then it you and I...
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, send the email please :)
<OvenWerks> working on it...
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, zequence I suddenly thought of one thing: Where's DarkEra?
<OvenWerks> not sure.
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: what is a good page to send people to for learning to use bzr with launchpad?
<cub> <OvenWerks> I would like to get some of the new people who have offered to contribute doing something that makes them feel useful
<cub> <OvenWerks> I would like to get some of the new people who have offered to contribute doing something that makes them feel useful
<cub> to do what?
<cub> hmm double postâ¦stupid mac
<OvenWerks> Just writing an email for the list... but basically we are finding our packages are out dated
<OvenWerks> the copyright files need to be made machine readable and some of our depends are for really old versions.
<OvenWerks> cub: ^^
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, hmm
<smartboyhw> bzr online doc?
<OvenWerks> launchpad has help pages too.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, whatever
<cub> OvenWerks, being the NSG (new stupid guy) that still doesn't make me understand what to do. :P
<smartboyhw> As long as people understand how to use bzr;P
<smartboyhw> cub, your task (sounds like Mission Impossible) is to update the copyright files to machine-readable using specific format and update the debhelper version to a newer one.
<OvenWerks> cub: I started there too not very long ago :)
<OvenWerks> you need: launchpad account and install bzr
<cub> done.
<OvenWerks> have you got ssh and pgp keys set up?
<cub> yes, but on my laptop at home
 * cub is still at work
<OvenWerks> thats ok where ever you wish to do the work.
<cub> yeah, it's just that I can't test anything now
<OvenWerks> go to https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev and select a package
<OvenWerks> for example 
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-default-settings
<cub> ok
<OvenWerks> and go to that page. then branch it (means download) into the directory you want to work on it
<OvenWerks> There is a section at the top that says "Get this branch"
<OvenWerks> use the command under that in a terminal.
<cub> yes, I have downloaded things before. just never worked on them
<cub> mostly to get art stuff
<OvenWerks> This will copy the branch to your computer
<OvenWerks> ok
<OvenWerks> inside that folder will be the debian folder and the copyright file is in there
<OvenWerks> I have just sent email to the list. it may help or confuse you :)
<OvenWerks> The branch command should work on any machine with bzr even without pgp/ssh set up.
<cub> great, I will take a look later on this evening I hope
<cub> yeah, I just don't have bar on my work machine. Booting up my eee pc which I had in my bag. =)
<OvenWerks> there is a link to the machine readable copyright spec though
<OvenWerks> http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/copyright-format/1.0/
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, I will approve cub's work when he submits it
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: email sent, feel free to add comments.
<OvenWerks> sounds good to me.
<OvenWerks> I should have added that people should tell the list what package you are working on so two people are not doing the same work.
<cub> That would be a good idea.'
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, comment sent.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, make a wiki page:p
<OvenWerks> I am going to spend time making bread and fixing a trailer today... then I might get to fixing -installer.
<cub> yeah, the next new guy will ask the same questions as me (perhaps)
<smartboyhw> cub, yeah.
<smartboyhw> cub, just ask, we'll help:)
<cub> or I could document my process later on
<smartboyhw> cub, sure.
<OvenWerks> sounds wonderful!
<cub> woaw the copyright-format page was quite extensive
<smartboyhw> cub, yeah:)\
<cub> very well, gotta head home and feed the family. Will check in later.
<smartboyhw> Hey madeinkobaia :)
<madeinkobaia> hey smartboyhw
<madeinkobaia> :)
<cub> Hi madeinkobaia I was just on my way out so just a quick question, did you have time to look at my draft for youtube tutorial guidelines?
<smartboyhw> cub, ooh nice!
<smartboyhw> Can I have a sneak peek of it?:P
 * OvenWerks wanders off to eat breakfast...
<madeinkobaia> cub: For the moment I am a really busy, but I saw your mail about the tutorial. In fact I was planning to add a new picture as background image. Now that takes more time than I expected for create it. Because also I wanted than this picture could be use as default wallpaper for the 13.04. I will send you a proposition in about +- 1 week.
<cub> excellent.
<cub> gotta run, bye!
<madeinkobaia> Bbl ! See you smartboyhw !
<zequence> OvenWerks: been away for a couple of days. Just came back
<OvenWerks> zequence: hello, no worries.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Nice initiative with the packages
<zequence> I won't have much time to do anything until I land in Switzerland on Thu
<OvenWerks> just a part of package maint we have not thought of
<OvenWerks> we will continue to fumble along :)
<OvenWerks> micahg: seems I was using rather old versioning for things like debhelp and that my copyright file should be "machine readable". Anyway, the ubuntustudio-installer package has had these things corrected. It has built and passed Lintian with no errors.
<OvenWerks> micahg: it appears most of our packages have similar errors :P so we will be going over them slowly to correct this.
<OvenWerks> It seems like a good project for getting new people started too.
<OvenWerks> micahg: when is a good time to remind you to upload -installer?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-07
<micahg> OvenWerks: now is good :)
<OvenWerks> micahg: ok.
<OvenWerks> micahg: did I miss you?
<micahg> no
<OvenWerks> ok
<holstein> !list
<ubottu> holstein: No warez here! This is not a file sharing channel (or network); read the channel topic. If you're looking for information about me, type Â« /msg ubottu !bot Â». If you're looking for a channel, see Â« /msg ubottu !alis Â».
<holstein> i have someone in PM asking me how to search users for files ;)
<holstein> i should have /q'd the bot..
<cub> OvenWerks, I'm dropping the copyright thing as per zequence's latest mail.
<zequence> cub: you're welcome to work at it. I'd be happy to assist
<zequence> gotta go. bbl
<cub> I'd like to, but would probably take a little longer as I need to learn what to do. 
<zequence> cub: This would be a good start https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupDeveloperEnvironment
<cub> yes I have those set up, except for git.
<smartboyhw> zequence, let others to try:P
<cub> Do or do not. There is no try. ;)
<smartboyhw> cub, well, try:P
<smartboyhw> This is your first attempt, after all
<smartboyhw> Hey ttoine :)
<ttoine> salut
<ttoine> hum
<ttoine> hello smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> :_
<smartboyhw> ;)
<smartboyhw> cub, which package are you going to help with?
<cub> I don't know yet. I need to read up on the debian copyright page first, which won't happen until lunchtime in a couple of hours since I'm back at work
<zequence> ttoine: hi
<zequence> ttoine: I got the t-shirt. Looks very good. Going to get the cup soon
<zequence> ttoine: The new cup you did, I feel the CoF is too low. Is it not possible to center it?
<zequence> ttoine: Also, I think it would be good (as you probably read from a previous quote) if we offered one cheaper alternative for the t-shirts
<zequence> About sizes: I got the smallest one, medium. And though I'm skinny, it would seem there are smaller people around than me (180cm), but you said there are no smaller sizes for that model?
<zequence> cub: Do you have resources for learning Debian packaging?
<zequence> cub: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/
<zequence> you can read about the files there
<zequence> Also this http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/maint-guide/
<zequence> There's https://wiki.debian.org/Packaging
<zequence> ..which includes previous links
<cub> zequence, I got some of the links from smartboyhw and OvenWerks  yesterday. I have not had a chance to read through them all yet though
<zequence> cub: Since you're just focusing on a few details, it shouldn't be much work learning about it. Don't know about possible problems in our copyright files though, but I'm sure it's not much of a problem
<cub> yeah, I'm just going to look at the copyright to start out with
<ttoine> zequence, it is actually centered automatically on the printing zone. I will try to make it manually
<ttoine> zequence, yes, for the organic cotton shirt, and most of male shirt, the smallest is M
<ttoine> I will see if I can do a cheap one, with basic shirt quality
<ttoine> by the way, it is good to have your feedback that the shirt you get is good stuff. How the printing looks like ?
<zequence> ttoine: The printing is very good. I recognize this modern printing quality. I have t-shirts my friend had made with the same style of printing, and it is quite durable
<smartboyhw> zequence, how do you suppose we can do all testcases mentioned in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bugs?field.tag=ubuntu-studio ?
<smartboyhw> 57 oh god
<knome> smartboyhw, how do you think xubuntu did all the testcases?
<knome> smartboyhw, call for testcase writers.
<ttoine> zequence, this is digital printing, not serigraphy like traditional printed shirt in big quantities. Glad to know this is fine too
<smartboyhw> knome, I know, but how to ask:P
<smartboyhw> Since Xubuntu got more testers than us
<knome> smartboyhw, send an email to your mailing lists?
<knome> that's a false assumption
<smartboyhw> knome, that's a true assumption.
<ttoine> zequence, would you have a picture of the shirt, so maybe we can put an article about the shop on the blog ?
<knome> besides, the testcase writers aren't necessarily testers
<smartboyhw> knome, ok...
<smartboyhw> zequence, can you write the email to the mailing list?
<zequence> ttoine: Yes, it would be good to blog about it. We should have articles on all our sites, and I will blog about it too myself
<zequence> smartboyhw: Yes. Been very busy lately
<zequence> smartboyhw: The bug reports have descriptions on how to do them
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK:0
<zequence> I was actually not aware of these bugs before
<zequence> very good they exist
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah sure:)
<zequence> we should form a simple routine on how to deal with them in our development cykle
<zequence> cycle*
<zequence> I'll add a page about it on our wiki under testing
<zequence> and then write a mail about it on the list
<zequence> knome: How do you deal with these test cases?
<knome> zequence, in what sense?
<zequence> Ah, sorry I just read what you wrote
<smartboyhw> Um, we put it in packages.qa.ubuntu.com
<knome> :)
<zequence> so, each application needs its own testcase
<knome> yup
<smartboyhw> zequence, yes.
<zequence> I think we should focus on the most important applications. It sometimes happens a package is missing a build dependency, and then a whole feature is not functional
<zequence> the people who write the tests need to know what to look for
<zequence> ..functionality wise for each application
<zequence> smartboyhw: Well, there you have it, thanks to knome's advice :)
<knome> np. and feel free to ask again (though i will be mostly gone before mon)
<zequence> knome: No one in Xubuntu team going to debconf?
<knome> i don't think so
<smartboyhw> zequence, go and learn a lot:0
<smartboyhw> Should be :) sorry:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, the power of smartphones: http://smartboyhwubuntu.wordpress.com/2013/08/07/ubuntu-edge-target-too-high-but-a-phone-that-one-will-want/
<smartboyhw> Actually, phablets;P
<zequence> pc-phablet
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
<smartboyhw> zequence, I mean, the bottom part is the key of my blog post:p
<zequence> Looks like they will have trouble reaching their goal, but maybe they have a few aces in their pocket, who knows
<zequence> just got the mug from the post. opening the package now
<knome> zequence, i was thinking maybe mark just pops in on the last day.
<zequence> knome: That was my thought as well :)
<zequence> those phones will need to be sold nevertheless, and I'm sure they will be
<knome> well if they have them
<ttoine> zequence, I took some time to fix the mug and create a basic and cheap t-shirt. I added description to the products, too.
<zequence> ttoine: Just took a look at the mug
<zequence> ttoine: The CoF doesn't look round, more like an egg :P
<cub> zequence, most important, how much coffee can the mug contain?
<ttoine> zequence, this is the rendering. don't forget that the mug is not flat
<zequence> not really an egg, but not perfectly round
<ttoine> oh, you mean the true mug ? you get it ?
<zequence> ttoine: Maybe we should make it wider. Perhaps it is common to do that for mugs?
<zequence> ttoine: Yes, I have the mug in my hand right now
<ttoine> great
<zequence> let me measure
<ttoine> I think there may be a problem with the rendering of spreadshirt for non flat products like the mug
<cub> I have a Starbucks mug and their logo look a bit egg-shaped too
<ttoine> maybe it is just a visual impression
<zequence> The measurements are correct. About 6cm across in any direction, but, it looks just a little off to the eye
<ttoine> because it is not flat
<cub> exactly
<ttoine> zequence, is the printing good ?
<cub> I just sketched the starbucks mug logo to a paperâ¦and when flat it looks normal. :D
<knome> re: rendering logos: i would probably just let it render a bit weird than trying to modify the original art; it's both really hard to get it absolutely right and it will look weird if somebody starts thinking about it
<cub> it would also only look right when looked at the exact angle
<cub> which you don't do that often
<zequence> ttoine: It's a little bit grey, but it looks good. The placement of the text is not perfect, it's a little tilted. Not something you think about without studying it in details
<zequence> It looks a bit strange from any angle right now I think
<cub> zequence, which mug did you buy?
<zequence> cub: the one where both text and CoF are on the same side
<zequence> the other mug was created afterwards
<cub> how much was the delivery costs?
<zequence> cub: About 40-50kr I think
<cub> great. I'll put in an order later today for a couple of shirts and the other mug then.
<ttoine> zequence, I finally found where to import vectorial graphism. But I will have to re export and redo the products. By the way, it means we may be able to make to nice embrodey
<ttoine> embrodery
<cub> hmm the prices just went up?
<cub> â¬20.10 for the shirt now. :D
<ttoine> cub, the prices didn't change at all
<cub> wasn't' it â¬20 before?
<ttoine> cub, I created a very cheap and basic shirt
<ttoine> was 20,10
<cub> aha
<ttoine> I change for ubuntustudio.spreadshirt.net
<ttoine> instead of .fr
<zequence> ttoine: Ah, yes. That makes it seem more international
<cub> ttoine, does that change where the items actually ship from?
<ttoine> cub, i don't think so
<cub> it would make quite a difference if it was shipped outside of the EU when buying from Sweden.
<ttoine> cub, why ??
<cub> it will land in customs and you get an extra customs fee plus additional taxes upon
<cub> I never buy outside of the EU anymore because it makes deliveries take much longer and more expensive
<cub> "(1) For customers ordering from EU states, the prices as given are the gross prices and include the statutory incidental taxes, in particular Value Added Tax." So it seems it's shipped from the EU, most likely Germany
<ttoine> certainly
<zequence> ttoine: This is the new version of the text logo http://www.ubuntustudio.mousike.me/wp-content/themes/ubuntustudio-wp-devel/img/us-logo.png
<zequence> ttoine: white, so you don't see it until you download
<zequence> ttoine: We will change all our sites to have that later
<zequence> ttoine: So, you could change it for the webshop as well already
<zequence> You can see it in action here http://www.ubuntustudio.mousike.me/
<ttoine> zequence, you must see with madeinkobaia to have a version on dark background. It is hard to use a white logo on white paper, for example
<zequence> ttoine: The background needs to be dark for that logo, or the color of the logo needs to be changed
<zequence> ttoine: The default is white color for the text. I don't see any reason for us to change that
<zequence> ttoine: How about design for the website? What can you do? html?
<smartboyhw> css:P
<ttoine> zequence, just that sometime, we might use the logo on websites or other places/media where the background is white
<ttoine> so we should have a version for this case
<ttoine> it is just my experience about communication stuff
<TheDrums> "<zeq|uence> GNUdru: We don't have our own DE, so it's not really up to us"   As far as I know, you have your own seed file, so you can run Xfce on xMir or X.org, just may not be in your favor to since you basically build atop Xubuntu.
<OvenWerks> TheDrums: That was my thought too. With the user base we are serving X.org looks like the proper choice right now. (my opinion, not ubuntustudio's) Stability is prority one.
<OvenWerks> Music software is still moving fast enough (xfce too for that matter) to make it worth keeping non-LTS releases stable.
<OvenWerks> Still it is nice to be able to deflect the question :)
<OvenWerks> Personally, not sure about zequence, I feel we need to be a little bit more conservative on this question.
<OvenWerks> I think 14.10 might be a good time to look at MIR. That skips both xMIR and the first release of MIR.
<TheDrums> I'm with you as well, I'd prefer we stick with Xorg for this release and 14.04 as it's an LTS, then go with the testing platform since by then it'll be more mature, and generally right after a LTS is the time to do crazy stunts.
<OvenWerks> It also avoids any FUD problems. We are thankful for all the work Xubuntu is doing testing things.
<OvenWerks> If we go for MIR, I want it to already be a solid platform
<TheDrums> I quite agree.  I could spin up a XMir ubuntustudio image, but I personally wouldn't see the point.
<OvenWerks> Actually, we have the stuff now to install studio direct on an xubuntu mir iso :)
<OvenWerks> Our menu and metas have an installer for other flavours.
<OvenWerks> Its personal PPAs now, but waiting for micahg to upload.
<OvenWerks> TheDrums: Speaking of which, what is the link to the xubuntu xMir ISO? I should try it out.
<TheDrums> http://vanir.unit193.tk/mir/
<OvenWerks> Thank you.
<TheDrums> Sure.
<OvenWerks> I have a spare partition... I'll try it as is first and then drop in the lowlatency kernel
<OvenWerks> then our workflow apps
<TheDrums> That ISO is based on the r898 packages.
<OvenWerks> r898 doesn't have meaning to me.
<micahg> OvenWerks: can you file a needs packaging bug for the -installer?
<micahg> I'll poke someone to review tonight, it looks good from my end
<OvenWerks> micahg: ok.anyone I should address it to?
<micahg> nope
<micahg> feel free to subscribe me
<OvenWerks> Will do.
<micahg> thanks
<OvenWerks> micahg: which one of your addresses should I drop it on?
<OvenWerks> never mind bug #1209414 
<ubottu> bug 1209414 in Ubuntu Studio "ubuntustudio-installer needs packaging" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1209414
<OvenWerks> I sent it to the one that has micahg 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-08
<cub> OvenWerks, I studied some of the copyright files on https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev . But I'm not quite sure how to handle the old ones. I figure I might give one a go, send it to you and/or smartboyhw to check?
<smartboyhw> cub, sure, send it to me and OvenWerks for checking will be good
<cub> The ones that have old or outdated GPL license texts, should we change those the newer ones?
<smartboyhw> cub, if it's GPL-2 it is still OK.
<cub> for instance one I was looking at specified "GPL 2.1" and it said "2.1" in the LIcense text several times, but when comparing to the new one OvenWerks did it just states "GPL 2+"
<cub> Ok, so I don't need to amend that.
<smartboyhw> cub, no no no wait (in this case)
<smartboyhw> Show me one example of it
<cub> lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-installer and lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-artwork/ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme
<cub> the installer OvenWerks updated, the lighted-theme is older and made by falkTX
<smartboyhw> cub, show me one file that has GPL 2.1.
<smartboyhw> busy packaging here, so give me a link to one specific file plz
<cub> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-artwork/ubuntustudio-lightdm-theme/view/head:/debian/copyright
<cub> no hurry, I should start up my work-apps. :P
<smartboyhw> cub, um that's LGPL-2.1+
<smartboyhw> That's what you are supposed to use when writing the copyright file...
<cub> Ah true.
<cub> I haven't had my coffee yet.
<smartboyhw> Hmm, the packaging shouldn't have been LGPL though, weird
<cub> Isn't that up to the author?
<smartboyhw> cub, well yes, but it is just weird
<smartboyhw> Packaging should not be LGPL, should be GPL, I will have to talk to falktx it seems
<cub> perhaps I should start with another package. :P
<smartboyhw> cub, LOL
<smartboyhw> cub, don't get distressed:P
<cub> JHas anyone heard anything more about his plans to port to Debian?
<smartboyhw> Not from me
<zequence> cub: smartboyhw: If it's GPL 2.1, then it's 2.1
<zequence> especially if we are not the authors, it is not our job to upgrade to a newer license
<zequence> better respect the initial intention
<smartboyhw> zequence, it's LGPL, not GPL:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: The point was not what license it is
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
<smartboyhw> I know it is not our responsiblity
<smartboyhw> But, he should use GPL more:(
<cub> OvenWerks, seems someone already have made a test run with Ubuntu Studio on Xmir: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2165595 check the second post
<smartboyhw> cub, :O
<cub> I don't know, grahammechanical in the thread might be someone in here since I don't know everyone here.
<smartboyhw> cub, no...
<smartboyhw> Not anybody here I suspect
<cub> I ran the xubuntu xmir test iso on my two laptops and it worked. So if it's stable and use less or the same amount of resources as it does today I don't really care what runs
<smartboyhw> We can probably add mir then
<smartboyhw> But, Xubuntu's decision will be the key to it.
<smartboyhw> cub, how's your current status on the packages?
<cub> quite slow. At the moment I only have an hour or two in late evenings if my daughter falls asleep fastâ¦.which she seem to prefer not to do.
<smartboyhw> cub, LOL
<cub> right now I*m at work
<smartboyhw> Sure, take your time;) 
<cub> yeah if everything's already done when I've read everything on how to fix them, at least I've learned something new
<smartboyhw> cub, good.
<cub> It's busy times here when everyone comes back from vacations, both at work and at home.
<smartboyhw> cub, ha, I'm still in vacation:P
<OvenWerks> cub: the lightdm package seems to be a slightly modified "mythbuntu-artwork lightdm theme" I suspect that falktx stuck with the original lic. so there would not be two lic. to list.
<OvenWerks> The packaged by line seems to be non-standard and really adds no new information.
<OvenWerks> If the package content is mostly from mythbuntu, then it may be a good idea to check if the copyright should include those authors as well.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, mythbuntu-artwork is gpl-2+  The package is "abandoned"
<OvenWerks> There is no lightdm theme in this package. It was last updated aug 2007 (maybe before lightdm?)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-09
<cub> OvenWerks, I suppose you know the best answer to http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2166382 ?
<zequence> cub: Since the menu is custom, each application needs to be put there separately
<zequence> I think ardour3 was supposed to be fixed by that time, but who knows which ardour3 he has installed
<zequence> this is the problem with customizing things too mucgh
<cub> yeah, but is it possible for an user themselves to easily move things around in the menus?
<zequence> and the reason why I'd rather be basing our work on freedesktop categories, and working on them upstream
<zequence> not easily
<cub> ah
<zequence> There's a dir in /etc/xdg
<zequence> I forget. Not on studio right now
<zequence> it's possible to create one in the home folder too
<cub> I'll check. Found some documentation on xfce
<zequence> just look for ubuntustudio
<zequence> let me fire up a VM
<cub> but you wrote that ardor3 might already been in there, so we can prepare menu items for applications that are not included in the distro?
<cub> http://wiki.xfce.org/howto/customize-menu should do the trick perhaps?
<zequence> cub: You'll see what I mean once you see the file
<zequence> /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/menus/xfce-applications.menu
<zequence> cub: ^
<cub> cheers
<cub> could you edit that yourself of will it be overwritten by the system?
<zequence> I was attempting to run virtual machines on my server a week ago or so, after I got my new processor. But, the machine chokes. Just freezes :/
<zequence> cub: It's part of ubuntustudio-default-settings
<zequence> you can edit it, no problem
<zequence> the /etc dir is for configuration files
<zequence> they don't get overwritten by the system at any point
<zequence> only if you purge/install packages
<zequence> a dir that does have variable files is /var
<zequence> cub: What we could do is edit the source, and do SRUs (stable release update)
<zequence> but, I think they'll need to purge and reinstall. I still know too little about Debian packaging, but that would be my best guess
<cub> Perhaps a bit overkill at this point :D
<zequence> While I'm in Switzerland, I'll see about getting ardour3 included in 13.10. And if we do, we should backport it back to 13.04, 12.10 and 12.04
<zequence> reaper is a well used program
<zequence> 12.04.3 is coming up
<zequence> we should make changes before then
<cub> Yeah I've used Reaper for 4-5 years now
<zequence> that would make a fresh install of 12.04.3 have this update
<cub> until my Vaio and Jack started to work properly
<cub> which means my "new" laptop is actually 5+ years old now..doh
<zequence> I'm hoping I meet some of the people in Debian Multimedia Team, and get some help on some specific problems
<cub> cool. Are you part of that team now as feel?
<cub> well
<cub> stupid autocorrect
<zequence> cub: Yes, I have been for a few months now
<zequence> haven't really gotten started yet
<cub> Have you heard anything about FalkTX plans to switch to Debian?
<zequence> I'm creating one package from scratch for future maintenance, and the idea is I'd help here and there, making sure Ubuntu Studio is well off from Debian imports, but also working for Debian
<zequence> Debian is my long term goal
<zequence> He's been talking about it
<zequence> He'll be facing new problems if he does
<cub> sure
<zequence> but, I'm sure he'll solve them well for the kind of user base he needs
<zequence> He'll want to Ubuntu-fy his version of Debian
<cub> hmm?
<zequence> Debian comes with a completely free kernel
<zequence> all non-free drivers and firmware are taken out and put in a different repository
<zequence> in the non-free repo
<cub> right
<zequence> so, if you have a laptop, you might notice a couple of things
<cub> have there been discussions before about Ubuntu Studio going Debian Studio instead?
<zequence> no wifi, and no 3d support on some ATI cards - even though the free drivers support it
<zequence> No discussions like that
<zequence> I have been working at mapping out and documenting all that UBuntu Studio consists off, so that if this community of developers wanted to migrate, we would be able to without too much work
<zequence> I've also been looking at how Debian works. Building ISOs, and so on
<cub> I was thinking when reinstalling my eee pc "why use something downstream when I could use the source directly" and installed Debian with Xfce instead of Xubuntu which I used before
<zequence> Ubuntu Studio is the forefront in Linux multimedia, so it's an important gateway for new users
<zequence> That's why I'm involved
<cub> yeah that was my conclusion as well to get involved
<zequence> Later, when I step down, I'll keep maintaining linux-lowlatency, and help mentor new developers, but I'll be focusing more on Debian
<zequence> There are some things I'd like to do on Ubuntu Studio before that happens though
<cub> that's how I started out, sure now I can make Debian do what I want but when I tried years ago I couldn't, but Ubuntu did.
<zequence> btw, I'm still in Sweden
<zequence> I was supposed to fly yesterday, but had gotten the date wrong
<zequence> Never happened to me before :P
<zequence> Going senile
<cub> better than the opposite, to find out the flight was actually yesterday and you wasn't on it. :D
<zequence> Yeah, the frustration you get from that is hard to vent
<smartboyhw> cub, we are happy that nobody tells us to switch to Debian, Kubuntu always get that:P
<smartboyhw> zequence, :O you can even forget when you travel~!?
<cub> Hehe I did that once as well when in Tokyo. Got up at 4-5 in the morning, packed everything, ordered a taxi and went down to check out
<cub> "But Mr Sjolund, aren't you staying until tomorrow?"
<cub> Lost in translation ...
<smartboyhw> cub, lol
<smartboyhw> cub, what's your full name? Jimmy Sjolund?
<cub> Jimmy SjÃ¶lundâ¦the Swedish o with dots.
<cub> Well, actually it origins from Finland. :P
<zequence> cub: Really :P
<cub> yeah, my grand father came over from Finland
<zequence> 1/4th is better than nothing ;)
<cub> 2/4 as my grand mother on my mother's side was born outside Sideby
<cub> None spoke Finnish though :/
<cub> I tried to learn when I lived in Haparanda but dropped out
<zequence> it's a bit tedious, I can imagine
<zequence> all that bending you have to do
<cub> the teaching methods were so old "this is a pen" come on, teach me something useful!
<zequence> Finnish is probably not so useful anyway :)
<zequence> but it is quite different from other European languages, and with all strange languages I think you can learn a lot from it
<zequence> ..and <as> with..
<cub> I was looking at moving to Helsinki for while within my last company
<cub> but it never panned out
<zequence> I lived there for a summer
<zequence> It was ok, but Sweden is better. I suppose cause I'm used to it here
<cub> I thought you were from Helsinki?
<zequence> I'm from GÃ¶teborg
<zequence> My mom is from Helsinki though
<zequence> my dad from Kuopio
<zequence> just about to leave for a quick spin on my bike, then off to the airport - again
<cub> hehe better luck this time
<zequence> thanks :P
<smartboyhw> So many Finnish and Swedish!?!?!
<smartboyhw> zequence, I'm taking my first SAT exam in November (this year). Any tips?:P
<zequence> smartboyhw: What's SAT?
<zequence> Ah, we don't have those here
<zequence> Well, we have something similar
<zequence> I don't know what kind of tests you have, but the kind we have are hard to study for
<zequence> You can't learn the entire dictionary by heart, and a lot has to do with how well you can intepret what you read - which is something you learn with experience over time
<zequence> hard to rush it
<zequence> Again, i don't know exactly what kind of tests you have
<zequence> math is the easiest to study, since the entire math before college is not that big
<zequence> you just need to make sure you do your home work :)
<cub> And never panic. If you don't understand a question, move on and get back to it later. 
<cub> And if it's multiple choice and you can't figure out which one i s right, C is always a good answer. ;)
<cub> If you are uncertain when goin back and checking your answers, unless you are sure you got it wrong don't change it. The first thing you think is often the right choice.
<smartboyhw> zequence, anyway I have decided to delay it till March next year:P
<smartboyhw> cub, hey
<smartboyhw> cub, you know, if you guessed it marks will be deducted for wrong answers.
<cub> oh evil
<smartboyhw> zequence, ha
<smartboyhw> zequence, for us, Math is difficult. Do you have to study calculus before college?
<smartboyhw> We have to if you want to study Physics or computer or econ or that sort of thing
<zequence> smartboyhw: I'm sure you may be a bit ahead in HK
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah:P
<smartboyhw> Actually, calculus isn't compulsory
<smartboyhw> But for most college subjects it requires it
<zequence> alright. time to sattle the horse and get going. bb tomorrow.
<cub> zequence, the menu thing was much easier than we made it. :P Menu -> Settings -> Main Menu
<TheDrums> OvenWerks: So how'd it go dropping the -studio stuff on that installed ISO?  I hear updating didn't go well for someone else though.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-11
<xequence> First day of debconf
<knome> :)
<knome> shouldn't your nick be debuence?
<xequence> knome: maybe next year :). This year I feel more like a tourist.
<smartboyhw> zequence, yeah
<smartboyhw> xequence, ^
<smartboyhw> knome, it should be dequence rather
<smartboyhw> Hey xequence 
<smartboyhw> How's Debconf?
<xequence> smartboyhw: Great weather. Introduction just started.
<xequence> Met some Canonical folks just now
<xequence> cjwatson and stgraber among others
<smartboyhw> xequence, great
<smartboyhw> xequence, (or zequence) When will you send out the e-mail to call for testcase writing?
<xequence> smartboyhw: As soon as I've established a structure for how and by whom the the test should be written
<smartboyhw> xequence, by whom? ...
<smartboyhw> How is easier than "by whom" I think
<smartboyhw> The community writes testcases:)
<smartboyhw> *more difficult actually;P
<smartboyhw> How: Propose merge
<xequence> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whom
<smartboyhw> xequence, I know, but how = propose merge and whom = community
<xequence> That much is clear, yes
<smartboyhw> How can that be difficult:P
<xequence> smartboyhw: Nothing is difficult
<xequence> it's just a matter of doing, and doing well
<smartboyhw> xequence, I know, but I don't think the "structure" is different from what we are using in main QA team
<xequence> smartboyhw: What would you look for when writing a test for ardour?
<smartboyhw> xequence, quality, typos, formatting
<smartboyhw> And of course, testing:)
<xequence> I don have time to chat right now. bbl
<xequence> smartboyhw: your missing the point
<smartboyhw> xequence, ...
<xequence> to be able to write a test for ardour, you need to be an ardour user
<xequence> many of these applications are quite different from other kinds of applications
<xequence> you dont simply look for typos
<xequence> in that case we can skip testing all together
<smartboyhw> xequence, uh huh... But of course you have to be an Ardour user to write the test...
<xequence> the tests should be written for long term use
<xequence> and we need documentation for this stuff
<smartboyhw> xequence, yes (as in the others)
<smartboyhw> xequence, what do you mean by "documentation"?
<xequence> smartboyhw: Since you seem to know how this is done, why don you prepare a proposal for me?
<smartboyhw> xequence, I just don't understand what you are meaning by "documentation"?!?
<xequence> I'll happily accept one within the week
<xequence> smartboyhw: Do you think you will have time for it?
<smartboyhw> xequence, answer me first...
<smartboyhw> If you want "HOWTO write", you can just refer to all the QATeam wiki
<smartboyhw> If you want how to test, again, the QATeam wiki
<xequence> smartboyhw: I don't need your advice in this matter smartboyhw. And I'm done wasting my time right now
<xequence> either you do it, or I do it
 * smartboyhw still can't understand why a proposal is needed, sorry
<xequence> then I do it
<smartboyhw> xequence, sure
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, what do you think about this? ^
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-08-07
<zequence> If anyone is interested in testing, we have 12.04.5 being released today, and it needs a bit of testing beforehand
<zequence> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/320/builds/74806/testcases
<zequence> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/320/builds/74807/testcases
<cub> how's things zequence, bad tooth again?
<zequence> cub: Actually, I was at the dentist today. Crazy woman. Got angry, and asked for a new dentist, after she had poked me in the "tandkÃ¶ttet" one too many times
<cub> hehe yeah I read that
<zequence> Right :)
<cub> and then they charge yo for it.
<zequence> I didn't pay though
<zequence> Didn't get far enough into the treatment
<zequence> Just got postponed
<zequence> cub: And you?
<cub> haha you ended the whole procedure?
<zequence> I had only sat in the chair for a couple of minutes, until I lost my temper
<cub> Life is good but busy. New job, well I'm 5 months in but feels new. My GF starting up her business again. Not much time left over
<zequence> Think she felt bad about it, but better she feels bads and finds another job, then messes peoples mouths up
<cub> hehe
<zequence> It's hard to find time for prolonged work
<zequence> It's one thing to do someting that only takes you 1-2 hours
<cub> I hope to get more stable once Ulrika is back on track
<zequence> But, if it takes a while longer, you end up forgetting things if there's too much time in between occasions of work
<cub> exactly and that 30 minutes thing take longer time because you need to trace back 
<zequence> I won't be doing more than now, not until next year
<zequence> Yep
<zequence> 100/100Mbit now, so testing ISOs happens pretty instantly
<cub> nice!
<zequence> I'm going out for a smoke (though, I don't really smoke, erhm). See you around cub :)
<cub> haha I'm going to do some cleaning here, having fun all the time
<cub> see ya!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-08-08
<cub> evening folks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-04
<zequence> FF coming up.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Don't think we will get much closer with categorization this cycle, so we might just as well think about how to make the menu work for 15.10, with customizations.
<zequence> I will package -controls this week and get it uploaded.
<zequence> It will only be able to add RT privilege to users, but it is enough for now.
<zequence> Once I'm done with that, I'd like to take a look at testing, so we have that somewhat nailed 'til next cycle. 
<zequence> Would be great to get lots of people involved in that. 
<zequence> I'll write something about all this on the mail list later too.
<zequence> (testing would involve testing post Debian Freeze applications, aside from regular ISO testing)
<OvenWerks> zequence: there is only one real big snaffu with the menu right now. For some reason the category "Documentation" shows up in "System" in 15.10 using the exact same menu file as 14.04 where it doesn't.
<OvenWerks> other than that comments have been favourable.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-06
<zequence> Totally missed the point release for 14.04.3. We had some help with testing.
<OvenWerks> zequence: hmmm, the version I am running says VERSION="14.04.3 LTS, Trusty Tahr" so I guess you are right. I have not stummbled on any trouble yet with audio at least. (windowing and other DE stuff has not broken of course)
<zequence> OvenWerks: It was being tested today. Don't think it's released yet
<zequence> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/344/builds
<OvenWerks> zequence: Well I did update late yesterday (maybe this morning?) That may be why.
<OvenWerks> Hasn't been rebooted though, says up 2 days in top.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-07
<zequence> Well, it's out now (since 10h).
<zequence> The point release in itself is just an ISO though
<zequence> So, you should have all the updates for it already.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-08
<sakrecoer> geirdal: hi!
<sakrecoer> geirdal: if it is problematic to senfd the sourcefiles of the graphics, could you send us PNGs without the logos and pictograms sometime, please? :)
<sakrecoer> ok, autumna kryten, lets bring this thing where it belongs: here :)
<sakrecoer> krytarik, even 
<sakrecoer> autumna is suggesting that the first image in the feature tour is too jarring with the rest of the pages.
<sakrecoer> i think the entire thing is jarring, but i'm open to try other things, more sober as autumna suggested.
<sakrecoer> now that we have that thing it is easy to swap the images and have a look together (i presume)
<sakrecoer> also, we should settle on the version of geridal s images we want to use... i picked the ones that appealed me the most in my sketch, but it might not be the ones everybody like the most...
<sakrecoer> that was krytarik suggestion, and i agree (also *blush** for not really thinking about it)
<sakrecoer> i guess at some point i decided that i had to make an arbitrary choice to get things moving again, ...or something :D
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Yes, the first one kind of sticks out in relation to the other ones in the feature tour at least.  And regarding the latter ones, I'm particularly looking at the brightness of those.
<sakrecoer> in my sketch i had mixed it with geirdals "first image" though..
<sakrecoer> specifically this one: http://geirdal.is/images/studio/studio_07.png iirc
<sakrecoer> so that it would match geirdal s way of mixing foto with digital deliciousness
<sakrecoer> yes, it was that one: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/render.png
<sakrecoer> although, not covering as much as geirdall does... perhaps we can develop this? i'm open for suggestions and trials :) but i want to see the results together with you guys
<sakrecoer> that is, we can scrap my photos, i don't mind living the mandala school of thoughts :D
<sakrecoer> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_mandala#Ritual_destruction
<autumna> *walks in
 * autumna thinks
<autumna> I think there are 2 issues here to address I am not sure how to address one of them. 
<sakrecoer> shoot for the one you know how to adress :)
<autumna> 1) feature tour/discover vs support vs news is too separate from each other as design. it is one thing for front page to be different, but it is strange for a sub page to be different. It makes the site look like we are midway an update to the site, with some pages left in old format, some in new
<autumna> that is the question I don't know how to address (yet!)
<sakrecoer> images ;)
<autumna> 2) front page, obviously needs more work. and among other things, the first image while looking great is not fantastic for readability as things stand. (plus with the logo etc its too many layers)
<sakrecoer> how about the feature tour IS the frontpage?
<sakrecoer> it would fit the scenarios in the wiki...
<autumna> well the short version of the feature tour IS the front page
<autumna> I kind of would hate to not have those software details
<autumna> in the main site
<sakrecoer> that is redundant, i thought it was temporary lazyness :D
<autumna> but that's my personal opinion
<sakrecoer> what is "the main site" ?
<autumna> we could remove the formatting on the "discover" section, and keep it on the front page only?
<autumna> main site: ubuntustudio.org
<autumna> rather than the wiki
<sakrecoer> yes, we should keep the software details on the site, for sure
<sakrecoer> we could remove the "discover" section all together, and have all its content moved tp the frontpage...
<autumna> we CAN keep the software details on front page. It does make the front page a big of a wall of text, but I mean... its not absolutely terrible
<autumna> hahah
<autumna> parallel typing
<autumna> ;)
<sakrecoer> i think its ok to have a long frontpage...
<autumna> sakrecoer: one thing we would probably need if all is in one page
<autumna> is one more background image
<autumna> so it would be: Welcome and download
<sakrecoer> good point!
<autumna> About: what is ubuntustudio (basically the first blurb on discover)
<autumna> then the sections
<autumna> krytarik feel free to add in opinions
<autumna> and geirdal and anybody else as well
<krytarik> autumna: Yeah, I do follow you there.
<sakrecoer> i think an "about" page becomes irrelevant id there is a feature tour, and i think a feature tour should be front-pgae :D
<autumna> the main reason I split was lack of extra background image, and too long, I have no issues merging 2 together
<sakrecoer> i don't see any "about" page atm...
<autumna> there is 'discover"
<sakrecoer> or you mean, you split frontpage and feature tour?
<autumna> and about is the section
<autumna> not the page
<autumna> first row: welcome, download etc
<autumna> underneath it with a second image: What is ubuntu studio, the blurb that currently sits on the discover page/feature tour
<autumna> then 3rd 4th 5th rows, audio, graphics, video
<autumna> ok 
<autumna> let me just merge the stuff into one big happy group
<autumna> and hope that the plugin doesn't die on me
<autumna> ;D
<sakrecoer> \o/
<sakrecoer> hmm... i havenÃÂ¤t looked enough at the front page... i thought it was far from done..
<sakrecoer> now that i do, isee what you ment before...
<sakrecoer> what if the short version of the workflow desciptions had a link "readmore" like the posts in top of frontpage, linking to the "discover-page" with an ID-anchor...
<autumna> well that was my original plan
<sakrecoer> so if you clikc on read more in graphics, you get to /feature-tour#graphics
<sakrecoer> ok ok.. sorry :D
<sakrecoer> hehe
<autumna> ;)
<autumna> which is why the front page has its short blurbs
<sakrecoer> was staring myself blind on the discover page :D
<autumna> but I want to try the one page approach
<autumna> because it might eventually solve our problems
<sakrecoer> ok :)
<autumna> + it is a more complete looking page, so less work for us, AND well give me 5 minutes to create a new version of the home page that is merged
<autumna> :P
<autumna> *sighs* I really picked the wrong week to install development version of gimp
 * autumna totally switches to krita
 * sakrecoer zaps back to website channel on autumnaTV :D
<autumna> sakrecoer, krytarik http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/home-alternate/
<autumna> I think this actually works better. pretty much only thing missing in this case is a) not sure what the links are supposed to be b) not sure if we want to make a custom button style, -
<autumna>  c) we might or might not need something on background of the first area. geirdal's image could be a solution there, or we could go crazy and put a background video *chuckles* whatever it is I would argue needs to be dark, and low contrast through so that it doesn't compete with the text there. leaving it blank is of course an option
<autumna> (I'd say a gradient of geirdal's image darkened, could work well there, but that's my opinion)
<geirdal> ok I will work on it autumna 
<autumna> oh awesome!!!
<geirdal> ;)
<autumna> geirdal what software do you use? krita or gimp?
<geirdal> krita
<sakrecoer> \o/
<autumna> ok I'll upload to WP, the krita layered kra I created. It has sakrecoer's transparency gradient built in as a clipping mask
<sakrecoer> i vote for a gradient on http://geirdal.is/images/studio/studio_07.png
<sakrecoer> (without the icons)
<geirdal> ofcourse
<sakrecoer> background video would be AWESOMEMATIC!... just... long to produce...
<geirdal> I like this one best http://geirdal.is/images/studio/studio_06.png
<autumna> well one good thing about this occasionally buggy plugin is that we are not locked in to the design of the feature tour, its images etc
<geirdal> withgout the icons
<autumna> we can swap them as the site grows
<autumna> geirdal if you could lower the saturation and contrast a bit I think that would work good. 
<autumna> great even.
<geirdal> ok
<sakrecoer> geirdal: that one is beautyfull too, but i find more aggresive somehow
<autumna> sakrecoer where did you want us to upload the originals again?
 * autumna forgot 
<sakrecoer> but yeah, if you tone it down like autumna says, that would maybe work better, lets try :)
<sakrecoer> i haven't quite sorted that out... but i thought of a "content" folder in the ubuntustudio-website git branch...
<sakrecoer> to put raw text from guest bloggers, feature tour, iamges etc..
<autumna> ok how do I upload to that thing?
<autumna> and url? :D
<geirdal> hehe
 * autumna is beyond lost *embarassed*
<sakrecoer> autumna: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-website/+git/trunk
<autumna> well... one way to sort this out...
<zequence> sakrecoer: You should probably start a new branch for that. The git branch is for the website theme only
<sakrecoer> zequence: ok, noted :)
<autumna> zequence if you are around, could you remind me how to add username to the command?
<autumna> I seem to have misplaced my notes, from the last time you explained :/
<autumna> geirdal: in mean time, you can download the template from ubuntustudio.zequence.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/headertemplate.kra
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-09
<zequence> autumna: Which command? To clone the branch?
<sakrecoer> autumna, zequence: here is the assets branch: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-website/+git/trunk/+ref/assets
<autumna> zequence: the variation to the command to clarify username etc?
<sakrecoer> autumna: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/SetupDeveloperEnvironment#Set_up_bazaar in the case of the assets branch it is git, the instructions are bellow on that wiki page
<sakrecoer> you need to have you ssh public key in your launchpad account also..
<geirdal> Hi all
<autumna> hi geirdal
<autumna> sakrecoer thanks, that's what I was looking for
<geirdal> autumna, images fitted in your template http://geirdal.is/index.php/studio-0
<autumna> geirdal, I like your edit to image of the about section in the unified front page. do you have a modified version for the header image through? 
<autumna> *goes to replace the image
<autumna> a version of this: http://geirdal.is/images/studio/studio_07.png cropped, darker, less contrast and saturation etc? 
<krytarik> ..Thought we were going to try with the original one of that though?  I don't like this one really.
<autumna> I just color corrected geirdal's version of the about image because it was too bright for readability. still dislike it krytarik? (I am torn, on one hand I find I am liking the pure image more as well, on other hand there is sense in having all the images be matched)
<autumna> pure image -> pure photo
<autumna> as reference: http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/home-alternate/
<krytarik> autumna: I'm referring to studio_07.png (which you just linked to) vs. studio_06.png (which geirdal and I prefer) - though yes, the workflow icons would be better on the left side.
<autumna> OOOOH
<autumna> you prefer this one? http://geirdal.is/images/studio/studio_06.png
<krytarik> To clarify, yarp.
<geirdal> yes :)
<autumna> *switches images in the work in progress
<autumna> krytarik, geirdal: http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/home-alternate/
<geirdal> ok
<geirdal> I will upload this image without the logo
<autumna> actually geirdal, i kind of took the liberty to edit shift colors a bit and rotate your image 180 degrees. 
<autumna> let me know if you like it?
<autumna> hi dool
<autumna> dool7 even
<dool7> ?
<dool7> Hi
<autumna> (its also what sakrecoer did in his initial mockup, so the idea isn't exactly mine)
<dool7> ?
<geirdal> autumna, http://geirdal.is/index.php/studio-0
<geirdal> see how it fits
<autumna> trying
<autumna> geirdal, krytarik, sakrecoer  http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/comparisonofIntroImages.png choose
<autumna> (and anybody else who wants to voice an opinion ;D)
<geirdal> I like the lower one better
<autumna> :)
<autumna> I have a preference for the upper one from a readability and overall design (not surprising I guess), but I like the details stand out on the one on lower side. 
<krytarik> autumna: Yeah, the upper one works better indeed.
<autumna> :)
<autumna> lightened up the upper image a tiny bit. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-10
<geirdal> autumna, I like your image alot, and yes it is better a little bit brighter
<sakrecoer> hi guys! i was reading you on my pocket computer yesterday, but no time to jump in the conversation.
<sakrecoer> hard choice, both images are awesome!
<sakrecoer> the lower one is cooler, the upper one is... :D
<sakrecoer> better
<geirdal> agree
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> on mobile the word 'ubuntustudio' breaks the formatting...
<sakrecoer> maybe it should be 2 images next to eachother, so that they land on top of eachother when the view port is small?
<sakrecoer> or a space between with css ala 'letter-spacing:-Xpx'
<sakrecoer> images would be easier to  format with..
<geirdal> let me see it on mobile
<geirdal> brb
<sakrecoer> if the img tag has 'alt=' attribute it will work for searchvrobots and blind people..
<geirdal> yes it will :)
<autumna> sakrecoer I didn't have a chance to fix the responsive version of the page yet
<autumna> in terms of images missing alts, where are we missing them? :)
<autumna> btw geirdal  both of the images are yours. the top one simply is the bottom half of it rotated and with some color changes. ;)
<geirdal> autumna, I like yours better :)
<autumna> :)
<sakrecoer> autumna: i wasn't saying images were missing "alt", i ment that if it is easier to format the title with images than to format it with text, we should use the "alt" atribute
<autumna> OOOOH
<autumna> I am happy with either solution
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> re: community showcase gallery thing...
<geirdal> hi
<sakrecoer> https://soundcloud.com/groups/ubuntu-studio
<autumna> ok so moving the discussion about community and a gallery here
<autumna> as summary geirdal thinks we should have a gallery of featured work, sakrecoer and autumna thinks it is a great idea
<geirdal> hehehe ok ;)
<autumna> but anyway I think the critical thing really is that we are aware of our scale, and aim to be consistent with what we do so that we can regularly maintain it (and eventually recruit to do more)
<autumna> we won't go from where we are, to blender style overnight. actually we won't be blender like at all for a very long time, because it is a project that has full time coders, funding etc. 
<autumna> but if we can do small things, the tutorials, updated resource, some videos and a small featured works section etc
<geirdal> true
<autumna> this is PLENTY. 
<autumna> but yeah
<autumna> make no mistake even doing this, which looks tiny stuff on paper is HARD
<autumna> and it will take time
<geirdal> yes it will
<geirdal> but its important
<autumna> it is important
<autumna> it will take time because these are things that kind of needs to evolve too over time
<geirdal> true
<autumna> you can't just go from nothing to a fantastic portfolio and functioning community. so we begin.. but we don't try to shortcut the process
<autumna> we get its not going to be very... shiny, or elaborate at first
<geirdal> of course not
<geirdal> but we are getting there
<autumna> yup
<sakrecoer> i opened this to save the soundcloud group: https://soundcloud.com/ubuntustudio
<sakrecoer> (soundcloud is discontinuing groups)
<geirdal> there is alot we can use from this
<autumna> *nods*
<geirdal> sakrecoer, autumna Herbicide , yes
<geirdal> works for me to paint
<sakrecoer> :)
<autumna> hehe
<autumna> hmm sakrecoer! 
<sakrecoer> ?
<autumna> I recognize some of these songs!
<autumna> :)
<sakrecoer> yeah... i took the hoel list in the group, didn't put all the ones i had shared in that group...
<autumna> ah
<geirdal> pinGnu
<autumna> (ok now that we moved to devel we are now discussing off topic things *chuckles*)
<geirdal> hehehehe
<autumna> ok so we have the soundcloud
<geirdal> I dont know the line
<autumna> geirdal said he might have like 6 images to give for gallery
<geirdal> I can can
<autumna> my situation is more complicated since most of my work uses processing (which is not part of the default software list)
<sakrecoer> we also have a flickr where people can share images by email
<autumna> wait we have a flickr?
<autumna> oh right, the background contest!
<autumna> wallpaper*
<sakrecoer> https://www.flickr.com/groups/ubuntustudiocreations/
<autumna> ok so correction
<sakrecoer> i have this one the PR password file... cfhowlett opened it... 
<autumna> we do already have a gallery of sorts
<sakrecoer> https://www.flickr.com/photos/creativelinux/
<sakrecoer> looks weird today...
<autumna> yeah apparently somebody has posted something odd on top
<autumna> out of curiosity, how many people submitted works, for the wallpaper challenge?
<autumna> *tries to also find this information on the flickr group*
<sakrecoer> i don't remember, but response was good... arround 20...
<sakrecoer> might have been more..
<autumna> nice
<autumna> and that was for wallpaper, so people were not submitting existing work, but doing new ones
<sakrecoer> not sure if everyone created something specificaly for it, but most seemed like they did yes..
<autumna> actually I see a lot more than 20 entries in the poll
<sakrecoer> :)
<autumna> (and very few of them on flickr oddly enough)
<autumna> but ok so the bottom line is
<autumna> we actually have the communities in place
<autumna> that's good
<sakrecoer> yes :)
<sakrecoer> ok, i have to go buy some stuff... i will be back in a few hours
<autumna> bye sakrecoer!
<geirdal> autumna, thasts very good
<autumna> ok quick recap here because apparently i started typing things in PM instead of devel. 
<geirdal> ok
<autumna> basically our forum looks like a support forum mostly
<autumna> but it might be worth putting a sticky there saying "post your work" and then we can feature things from there
<autumna> I was saying also that we could theorically move the forum, but it is hard to get people to use something new
<autumna> sakrecoer said that we will probably have to ask somebody to make the thread sticky but that it wasn't hard. 
<autumna> (one of these days I am going to do something really embarassing like typing something something ubuntu studio related in a channel that really has nothing to do with US)
<geirdal> hehe
<sakrecoer> regarding murrine and shimmer. we keep murrine-themes and added numix-gtk-theme
<sakrecoer> as it looks, we can customize numix to a blue color. upstream is going to provide us with the svg's to do it painfully.
<sakrecoer> no.. to do it without pain :D
<sakrecoer> https://github.com/numixproject/numix-gtk-theme/issues/508
<sakrecoer> now, if it is not done yet, and if we don't manage to have it done somehow, would it be ok with the group to use numix as default theme anyway instead of greybird, even though it has red highlight color?
<sakrecoer> gosh.. i type worse than usual.
<sakrecoer> corrected: "now, it is not done yet, and if we somehow don't manage to have it done in time, would it be ok with you guys to have numix as default theme instead of greybird, even though it has red highlight color?"
<sakrecoer> autumna, geirdal, OvenWerks, zequence and anyone who wants to weight in :)
 * autumna catches up with the transcript
<autumna> what needs to be done to change from red to blue?
<sakrecoer> autumna: wait for svg assets...
<autumna> I mean yes, my vote is for numix I think 
<autumna> I see
<sakrecoer> then use sed to change the colors from red to blue
<sakrecoer> i made a little bash script to change all colors and then transform the SVGs to PNGs..
<autumna> I wonder if it would even be possible to batch do it using imagemag-
 * autumna chuckles
<autumna> alright then
<sakrecoer> probably, but to find the right hue with imagemagick seems complicated to me... it would be sort of a guess, no?
<sakrecoer> if we batch process the PNGs..
<autumna> umm you can probably type in the hue?
<autumna> and colorize using it?
<autumna> but I mean batch process is the point, it doesn't matter really what you use for it
<sakrecoer> yes, but... what value, will turn that specific red into our specific blue?
<sakrecoer> right
<autumna> well if you colorize it
<autumna> ok hang on let me talk out of my brain here
<autumna> and either way if you have a script ready, it doesn't matter
<sakrecoer> i'm up for it.. especially if the SVGs don't show up..
<sakrecoer> but, i don't know how to be precise with your method
<sakrecoer> hopefully you do
<autumna> OHH
<autumna> ok for the record I am being very slow at the moment apparent
<autumna> apparently
<autumna> I am like literally taking a minute to figure out what you are saying :) and yeah let me try
<autumna> do we want them ubuntustudio blue?
<autumna> exactly?
<autumna> also do you have a few more examples other than the round?
<autumna> do they have shading?
<sakrecoer> autumna: what is "the round"?
<autumna> (also I remember there was a batch editor for gimp too.. but image magick would be much much easier)
<sakrecoer> yes, they have shading
<autumna> the radio button you linked at the github issue
<sakrecoer> autumna: https://github.com/numixproject/numix-gtk-theme/tree/master/gtk-3.0/assets
<sakrecoer> i have to go unfortunately... early morning tomorrow... g'night y'all!
<autumna> bye
<krytarik> autumna: I seem to have finally convinced sakrecoer to go with the Greybird blue (#398ee7) rather than the Studio one, btw :P - 1.) to fit better with the rest of the theming, and 2.) make it appealing for anyone else than us to use as well.
<autumna> alright :)
<autumna> I'll try to aim for that then
<autumna> :)
<krytarik> autumna: Notice there seems to be a darker shade of red they are using as well - we'd have to figure out a proper replacement for that too, and we were currently looking at what Greybird uses as the link color - #2d71b8.
<autumna> well what I am trying to do is to use colorize
<autumna> and where it gets me
<autumna> if it doesn't work
<autumna> next solution will probably have to involve gimp with batch plugin
<autumna> and there it is about changing the hue rather than value
<autumna> (I haven't ran into the darker red yet but sakrecoer mentioned it)
<autumna> oh-kay that didn't go well :D
<autumna> gimp it is
<autumna> sakrecoer krytarik: I can almost match the icon color to graybird blue, (1 rgb value off which is not visible really)
<autumna> well ok maybe more than 1rgb value I'll take another try at this in morning
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-11
<sakrecoer> krytaril autumna : yes i was convinced. but to be fair, argument 1.) isn't what turned me. 'fits better' is kindof like 'pretier' imho. but 2.) is a fair and tangible argument. our blue is beautifull, but very vivid. it works well in branding, but everywhere on the desktop takes its toll on the eyes, as opposed to the more neutral greybird blue.
<sakrecoer> krytarik, even :)
<sakrecoer> i tried both blue that is
<sakrecoer> good to read you found a value, autumna. i still hope we get the SVGs in time so we can have exact colors.
<autumna> I think the current state is a good backup solution if svgs don't arrive in time
<autumna> also from what i can see there are no darker shades in the pngs
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Very well then - "fits better the rest of the theming" is more objective, while "is too bright" is subjective, so I went with the less arguable option - but glad that you got there either way.. :P
<sakrecoer> krytarik: :) i'll agree to dissagree: "too bright" affects readability, so i find that less subjective than "fits better"... never the less, your arguementation was perfect, and yes, i agree with you on the outcome :)
<sakrecoer> also, hi all!
<cfhowlett> yowza!
<cfhowlett> sakrecoer, have you seen these?  while there is not one for ubuntu, I suspect we could (and should) put one together.  might make a nice background for videos
<cfhowlett> http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/bn/node/269
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett, tomodachi! genki? let me see...
<sakrecoer> yeah, that would be nice indeed :)
<cfhowlett> also for video overall, check this styling out: https://www.xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml
<cfhowlett> also see part 2:  http://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml
<cfhowlett> see the last minute for credits.  I like the stying
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett: so you don't like the ones i did? :D
<cfhowlett> I did NOT say that!  :)
<cfhowlett> but since you mention it ... is it worth considering a short sprint contest to solicit user designs?  I REALLY do not want to see the need for the team to do ALL the work.
<sakrecoer> sure.. anyways i'm nto saying mine are ultimate.... its just that i made them 2 months ago, and i asked for feedback at that time before rendering them (which takes a while)
<cfhowlett> :)  understood. 
<sakrecoer> misunderstand me right, i'm not blaming anyone for having other fish to fry here <3
<cfhowlett> I probably missed that as I only JUST got my baby back from repair a couple of days ago
<sakrecoer> np, cfhowlett :) i read your good intentions.. i'm just... you know... having done the effort and all hahaha, i guess i'm being protective :D
<cfhowlett> do we have a main design landing page?
<sakrecoer> but, sure, like... ultimately, what would be awesome, is that we manage to make a sketch together, perhaps with the community, then realize it from that..?
<cfhowlett> gotta admit, I'm really not a fan of the bizr thing.  I had hoped we might find a more collaborative platform - evernote shared chat and such
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork
<cfhowlett> right, so where's the link for current, under development projects, aka video tutorial design
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett: i'd guess it is missing :D
<sakrecoer> on that page that is...
<sakrecoer> it landed here instead: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Documentation
<sakrecoer> wouldn't hurt to make a yakkety art page..
<cfhowlett> thus my complaint.  not sure what tools we might use, but I strongly suggest we prioritize ease of collaboration as we go forward
<sakrecoer> i couldn't agree more... we are still a very small team, i think that is the only issue at stake in that matter..
<cfhowlett> plan  for growth.  I see a whole lot of interest folk trickling through on the FB page.  If we make contributing user-friendly, we might just have a need for some scale
<cfhowlett> take a look at slack.com
<sakrecoer> hmm... convincing slogan "A messaging app for teams who put robotslooks like IRC with sexy mugshots 
<sakrecoer> oops.. paste messed up :D
<cfhowlett> ?!
<sakrecoer> it looks like a sexy IRC, with easy GUI
<cfhowlett> there is a native slack for linux (beta) https://slack.com/downloads
<cfhowlett> yeah but with archiving, searchability and easy file transfers.  
<sakrecoer> yeah... well, this channel is archived and searchable, but a easier filetransfer would be nice yes...
<cfhowlett> I'll experiment with it.  again: not suggesting we have done anything wrong, but making it easier would be to the benefit of all.
<cfhowlett> IMHO
<sakrecoer> cool! let us know about your findings :)
<sakrecoer> we are maybe not doing wrong, but we could for sure do better
<sakrecoer> or better said: i agree with you
<cfhowlett> better yet, please install the beta and let's test it together.
<cfhowlett> since we have a bit of lag to indulge ourselves before yakety get's seriousl
<sakrecoer> ok i'll try it with you...
<sakrecoer> but i admit being dubious about how much this would make things easier: we would still ahve to get everyone to install that software (which i don't know if we can give support for) and in fact we ship all the tools necessary to communicate with the community, except file transfer (although we do have transmission)
<sakrecoer> slack is a noon-free deb..
<sakrecoer> so, i have it open... what now?
<sakrecoer> have you set up a team?
<sakrecoer> ubuntustudio.slack.com ?
<cfhowlett> yep.  your email adress?  via PM 
<cfhowlett> ubuntustudio-dev.slack.com
<sakrecoer> so, anyone who wants to join, has first got to reach out to us...
<sakrecoer> Unfortunately, this email address
<sakrecoer> isn't currently associated with that team.
<sakrecoer> and they will reah out via email and/or IRC right?
<cfhowlett> right.  pm me and I'll send you an e-vite
<cfhowlett> need your email address 
<sakrecoer> sent it via pm
<cfhowlett> sent evite
<cfhowlett> oh, do not disturb mode?  really!
<sakrecoer> ?
<cfhowlett> I see you logged on and sent you a msg: "DND"
<sakrecoer> what?
<sakrecoer> i didn't...
<sakrecoer> so where is the public archive of the channel?
<cfhowlett> let me look for that
<sakrecoer> http://slackarchive.io/
<cfhowlett> nice!  
<sakrecoer> or https://get.slack.help/hc/en-us/articles/201563847-Archiving-a-channel
<cfhowlett> not sure it's *public* but nice
<sakrecoer> best seems to be with a bot https://github.com/timblair/slack-archivebot
<zequence> sakrecoer: irclogs.ubuntu.com
<zequence> Or, which one?
<sakrecoer> thanks zequence! i was refering to the slack thing cfhowlett is introducing
<sakrecoer> as in, where is the public archive of slack channel
<cfhowlett> experimenting with the slack linux app, zequence 
<cfhowlett> you are free to join!  pm your emial
<zequence> Ok. Just reading the backlog a bit.
<zequence> Looks sort of similar to IRC, I suppose
<sakrecoer> oh my... i tried to send a link to you... and it opened this funky prompt with 2000 options...
<sakrecoer> now, i recieved your welcome..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-12
<kde> hey
<Guest97805> pls if u can change in 17.04 enviroment to kde xfce is shit 
<Guest97805> bye
<cfhowlett> or you could just install kde yourself.  without the profanity even.
<trebmuh> sakrecoer, nice 1980's vidÃ©o :)
<autumna> hi cfhowlett and trebmuh
<cfhowlett> greetings
<trebmuh> hu autumna 
<trebmuh> and all
<autumna> :)
<trebmuh> s/hu/hi/
<autumna> :D
<sakrecoer> hi all!
<cfhowlett> sakrecoer, check your email 
<sakrecoer> cfhowlett: i got your dropbox thing, need to register an account first it seems... i don't mind... well, just enough to mention i _have_ to register an account. :D
<sakrecoer> haha
<sakrecoer> funny thing, those ID cards cfhowlett (hopeing you read the IRC log)
<sakrecoer> so, cfhowlett is proposing to make a contest for ubuntustudio ID cards
<sakrecoer> he wrote to me: "Time to update the UbuntuStudio identification card!  perhaps a contest?"
<sakrecoer> so i guess it's been a thing, and i think it is funny nice :)
<sakrecoer> here are the files: http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudioID/
<autumna> what are these used for?
<autumna> I mean beyond fun?
 * autumna is simply curious
<sakrecoer> good question...
<sakrecoer> i don't think it goes beyond fun.. but fun is nice
<autumna> heh
<autumna> :D
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-13
<autumna> sakrecoer, krytarik, geirdal whoever else I am missing who works with the website: 2 things
<autumna> 1) after finishing the contribute section I think the site is ready to launch. yes/no? 
<autumna> 2)  I am almost wondering if having a single image header (the gradient style, but thinner) is a good idea, will experiment with it a bit, although this is not something we need to decide by the launch 
<autumna> ok merchandise and artwork pages
<autumna> former can happen before or after the launch, latter will probably happen after the launch because we need to have a tally of what we have. the challenge there will be that we won't have one type of media unlike the gallery pages of krita or blender for example. we have audio, and graphics and video down the line when we have submissions. which makes it more challenging situation. 
<sakrecoer> autumna: yes, we are very close.
<sakrecoer> i agree to the points above
<sakrecoer> all i can think of are details atm
<autumna> yay
<autumna> https://etherpad.net/p/contributepage
<autumna> WIP place actively typing :)
<sakrecoer> such as the margin bellow the posts in top section... the "!" mark after "studio" that is white (that is there at all)...
<sakrecoer> but those are details really...
<sakrecoer> not too sure about the ltter spacing in the titles... so forth and so on :D
<sakrecoer> funny to see you type :D
<autumna> hang on guys, I'll resize windows so that I can see what you guys are commenting
<autumna> actually there might not be need for the formatting
<autumna> let me see some pads have export option
<autumna> err no no such luck
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Of course it is white, and of course it is there - it's a greeting, not a statement.
<sakrecoer> krytarik: haha... no it's a typografic error in my schoolbook
<sakrecoer> also, it's in regular, where "studio" is in bold, so 2 typographic errors in one glyph :D
<sakrecoer> and there are 2 sizes in the title
 * sakrecoer sheds a tear for poor guttenberg, shrugin in his grave :D
<autumna> yes the size was intentional
<autumna> I made the ubuntustudio a bit larger as a css
<autumna> we can change that
<autumna> btw sakrecoer I was think re the logo, there is a distinct disadventage of making the logo image and that is people who disable css will not be able to see it
<sakrecoer> yes, please. i don't min 2 different sizes, but it has to be consistent, such as 2/3, 1/2, bigger...
<autumna> vs css styling of the logo goes away with the rest of the css
<autumna> it is consistent
<autumna> its something like 120%?
<autumna> of the text type it is in
<sakrecoer> yeah, that is not enough.. makes it look like an error in my eyes.
<sakrecoer> it is in CSS now?
<autumna> yes
<autumna> double size would hmmm
<sakrecoer> same size...
<sakrecoer> there is already a font difference.
<autumna> making it too big would make it look weird
<sakrecoer> its medium on ubuntu and regular on welcome
<autumna> ubuntu+studi- actually you are right
<sakrecoer> no need to add size difference on top of that ;) it's called putting a cake on the cake :D
<autumna> studio is larger than ubuntu.
<autumna> what on earth
<autumna> did WP nest the 2 spans or something?
<krytarik> That's just how the logo is...
<sakrecoer> yeah, there are three fonts, three sizes and 2 colors atm...
<autumna> its the logo
<autumna> one thing WE CAN do 
<autumna> is to put the title into two lines
<autumna> ok let me fix that real quick before going back to contribute
<sakrecoer> right, krytarik is right..
<autumna> but after that can we please focus on one thing?
<sakrecoer> its the wight difference i think
<sakrecoer> yes
<sakrecoer> those are details, i agree...
<autumna> its not it sakrecoer
<autumna> it is important
<autumna> just like jumping around we won't get anything finished ;D
<sakrecoer> yes, but the content should be in place before we go through the finess
<sakrecoer> otherwise we will be constantly chasing loose ends
<autumna> http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/ here we go
<krytarik> Uhh, ok..
<autumna> you don't like it?
<sakrecoer> i like it :D
<sakrecoer> i can see the "!" mark there, but in blue and in ubuntu-bold
<sakrecoer> anyways, we'll check that later ;)
<autumna> I deleted the !
<autumna> or I should have
<autumna> refresh?
<sakrecoer> nono, i see that you removed it...
<sakrecoer> that is why i mention it, knowing krytarik likes it.
<autumna> ahh
<sakrecoer> let it be for now autumna :)
<autumna> *forces brain to switch gears back
<krytarik> Nah, I think the multiline thing can work - just seems to need a little getting used to - and I don't mind the dropped exclamation mark either then, of course.
<autumna> :D
<autumna> its a question of getting the proportion right
<autumna> which am I not sure is QUITE there
<autumna> (or it might be)
<autumna> ok I think I have a rough draft 
<autumna> sakrecoer /krytarik feel free to contribute, also we can probably move this into stage, unless somebody wants to do some radical changes to it
<sakrecoer> i am going to be away until tonight from now, but i will look at it as soon as i can..
<autumna> alright
<autumna> http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/contribute/
<autumna> this is the link whoever wants to hack at it
<autumna> I'll also be off for a bit doing some other things. thanks sakrecoer and kryten
<sakrecoer> thank you autumna ! enjoy your evening!
<autumna> thanks
<autumna> krytarik, sakrecoer, geirdal, anybody else who is interested in website: http://www.ubuntustudio.zequence.net/support/
<autumna> added background to the ordinary pages, to make it more streamlined with the front page. good idea? bad idea? terrible idea?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-06
 * Eickmeyer loves seeing this chatter
<Eickmeyer> Hey everyone. This was brought to the attention of those of us in the -flavors channel. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2018-August/005402.html
<Eickmeyer> Now, while I'm not panicking and don't want to start a panic, it seems as though upstream GNOME is doing things that are breaking GTK3 for other environments, such as Budgie. No doubt it affects Xfce's movement to GTK3 as well.
<Eickmeyer> It brought up an interesting thought: if, however unlikely, Xfce (and therefore Xubuntu), so does Studio.
<Eickmeyer> *if Xfce breaks, that is.
<Eickmeyer> Our additon of Plasma is seemingly that much more apt.
<eylul> oh yikes
<eylul> this puts plasma desktop up on focus probably. 
<eylul> Eickmeyer: by the way I haven't forgotten the epub/pdf. basically main problem I kept running into is that I was hoping epub would work as a main source file to generate everything else from
<eylul> that idea has been throughly dashed this past week. the whole thing looks like a printout of a webpage than a nice book. So I am scrapping this whole idea and making 2 files separate we can try to figure out a workflow for future updates and books. (will have more detailed thoughts on this by next meeting) but in mean time will try to get the epub out now, and pdf in a couple of days, this has been delayed enough as it is.
<Eickmeyer> eylul: Sounds good. Get me a link and I'll get it in the wiki and get an announcement out.
<Eickmeyer> eylul: And, yes, I fear making Plasma more of a focus is something that needs to be done, and perhaps even switch it to the default. GTK changes have affected Xfce in the past in a negative way, and any breakage at this point could destroy Studio since we're so fragile right now. I don't want that to happen, and I know nobody else does either.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: well if someone wants to work at getting the second iso spinning... I may not have much time for the rest of the month.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I don't know where to start. Pinging tsimonq2.
<Eickmeyer> Otherwise I'd totally make that the focus.
<tsimonq2> Yo.
<tsimonq2> Super easy.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: You have a separate seed and metapackage, right?
<tsimonq2> If not, that's the first step.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Where are we at with that?
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Looks like there's a separate seed. https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio-plasma.cosmic
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Please convert that to Git, and I can upload the metapackage.
<Eickmeyer> Okay.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntustudio-plasma.cosmic
<Eickmeyer> I expect there to be failures.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: sorry, the seed depends on metas we already have I think.
<OvenWerks> We don't want both seeds to create the same metas.
<Eickmeyer> Well, then we need to fix that. I think the first step would be to fork kubuntu-desktop to make ubuntustudio-plama-desktop
<Eickmeyer> But, I'm not 100% sure on that.
<OvenWerks> That one can be directly meta-ed from the seed.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, okay. So, lots of work to do in the seed?
<OvenWerks> The seed has only two files of note: desktop-plasma and metas
<OvenWerks> no more work. I think
<Eickmeyer> Okay. Is it calling ubuntustudio-plasma-settings? (I haven't looked that deeply yet)
<OvenWerks> make a ubuntustudio-desktop meta from the first and the second may not need to be metaed as it is already just a list of metas
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I'm not sure :)
<Eickmeyer> Okay. Well, I don't think we'll know for sure until we start attempting to spin ISOs and get kicked-back.
<OvenWerks> yes but it is commented out as ubuntustudio-plasma-settings has to be released
<Eickmeyer> Okay. Well, Ross is off on his trip for 3 weeks, so getting that in is going to be tricky.
<OvenWerks> so the iso can be spun ok, it will just be without settings.
<OvenWerks> but that will give something to experiment with
<OvenWerks> that is we can build settings and install from the ppa after install.
 * tsimonq2 is back.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Instead of putting it under master on https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntustudio-plasma.cosmic please push it to a cosmic branch of https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntustudio-plasma
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: I can handle the initial creation of the metapackage, the pushing into cosmic, and the infra bits.
<tsimonq2> OvenWerks: desktop-plasma should just be desktop; if it's in a different seed, naming collisions don't matter.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Done
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: You can push buttons in iso.qa.ubuntu.com right?
<tsimonq2> i.e. mark ISOs as ready, etc.
<Eickmeyer> Yes, I sure can.
<Eickmeyer> Got kinda busy with what is soon to be an overdue photo shoot (Yes, I do that too!)
<tsimonq2> :D
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Anything that needs to be clicked now?
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Not at the moment.
<Eickmeyer> Thought so, but figured now that I've done a bulk of the photo stuff I have a chance to check. :)
<Eickmeyer> <3 Darktable
<tsimonq2> Oh, did you rename desktop-plasma to desktop?
<Eickmeyer> I did not. Did OvenWerks?
<tsimonq2> I don't believe so.
<Eickmeyer> Okay, I'll see what I can do.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Done and pushed.
<Eickmeyer> (that really shouldn't have taken as long as it did, just got into other things)
<tsimonq2> Thanks.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-07
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: thanks
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-09
<tedge> Hi, I'm the upstream developer of PikoPixel, a free open-source application for drawing & editing pixel-art:
<tedge> http://twilightedge.com/mac/pikopixel
<tedge> PikoPixel is available in the Debian & Ubuntu repositories (thanks to tarzeau_):
<tedge> https://packages.ubuntu.com/cosmic/amd64/pikopixel.app
<tedge> Here's a couple examples of artists using PikoPixel on Linux:
<tedge> https://www.instagram.com/p/BlgFRBTAf4q/
<tedge> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KFI8xm1fd8
<tedge> PikoPixel would be a useful tool to include with Ubuntu Studio. How can it be submitted for consideration?
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: ^
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-10
<tedge> I have to get going.
<tedge> If you want to get in touch about submitting PikoPixel for Ubuntu Studio, please email me at pikopixel (at) twilightedge (dot) com, or use the website's contact form: http://twilightedge.com/contact/index.html .
<tedge> Thanks!
<OvenWerks> with regard to pikopixel: it relies on gnustep (6 libs). The fact that it calls itself *.app suggests that it may be script-ish.
<OvenWerks> I am not sure of the size, But someone who does graphics more than I should look at it if there is interest. If size is small enough I guess it doesn't matter much.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Really, he's barking up the wrong tree. Needs to be redirected to a MOTU for inclusion in Universe first.
<OvenWerks> it says it is in universe already
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: If that's the case, then it just needs to be added to the seed, right?
<OvenWerks> if we want it, yes
<OvenWerks> I would like to see someone with graphics background at least try it out.
<Eickmeyer> I'll investigate. eylul would be a good one to check it out too.
<Eickmeyer> Looking at it, it might be useful for icon creation.
<OvenWerks> does it fill a roll we don't have? or better?
<Eickmeyer> Well, one could really use GIMP or Krita for this, but this seems to have a focus on pixel art and/or icon development.
<OvenWerks> So it may be better than other tools for at least some uses.
<Eickmeyer> Perhaps. I'd love to do a little Q&A with him just to further isolate what niche it fills.
<Eickmeyer> AGPLv3, so it's good to go that way.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Honestly, it might be a good replacement for MyPaint if they don't get their act in gear.
<OvenWerks> there is that
<Eickmeyer> Should I invite him to the meeting on Saturday?
<OvenWerks> is there one? sure
<Eickmeyer> That way we could ask him questions.
<OvenWerks> Unless we should discuss this outside his presense first
<Eickmeyer> Okay. Perhaps we should do that and then plan an off-schedule meeting if we have questions?
 * Eickmeyer is trying to get next Saturday completely clear to go for a day trip to Mt. St. Helens
<OvenWerks> cool, we have company coming later and will be cleaning house :P
<Eickmeyer> Joy. /s
<Eickmeyer> So, I'll add it to the agenda for this Saturday's meeting.
<eylul> Eickmeyer: unless there is a serious reason not to, I'd say it is a good addition. pixelart editors are also useful for game designers, and I don't think we currently have one. :)
<eylul> and it is not a mypaint replacement. mypaint is a drawing tool/sketchbook app, more similar to Krita.
<Eickmeyer> eylul: Okay, cool. In that case, should we just drop MyPaint altogether since Krtia fills that niche? If yes, it creates room for pikopixel.
 * Eickmeyer finally bit the bullet and is upgrading his system to Cosmic
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-11
 * Eickmeyer regrets upgrading system to Cosmic... very buggy. Nuke/pave of root drive, here I come.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it has gotten worse then
<OvenWerks> When I was using plasma cosmic it seemed quite good.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: For some reason, plasma in cosmic likes to freeze upon login for me. Not sure why, might be my AMD graphics because it shut-off the compositor.
<Eickmeyer> Therefore, bug in the kernel.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: or maybe you are using the wayland login?
<Eickmeyer> Nope, no wayland here.
<OvenWerks> (the wayland login freezes for me too)
<Eickmeyer> I might double-check.
<OvenWerks> There may be no wayland, but the wayland login file is there
<OvenWerks> That is proabaly why mine froze
<Eickmeyer> Just tried it, definitely not wayland.  I only have one Plasma option, appears to be the standard xorg version.
<Eickmeyer> Though, it did login, so that's good.
<Eickmeyer> No freeze.
<OvenWerks> I am using Intel graphics here... so basic.
<Eickmeyer> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Aug 11 19:00:46 2018 UTC.  The chair is Eickmeyer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<Eickmeyer> #chair OvenWerks eylul captain-tux
<meetingology> Current chairs: Eickmeyer OvenWerks captain-tux eylul
<Eickmeyer> Hello all!
<captain-tux> Hi
<Eickmeyer> captain-tux: o/
<Eickmeyer> Anybody else here? I was speaking with OvenWerks a little while ago...
<Eickmeyer> s/speaking/writing
 * Eickmeyer just read the agenda and is horrified at the spellling error of Handbook
<Eickmeyer> my bad...
<captain-tux> Not a problem, we could wait a little.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that might be what we'll do.
<Eickmeyer> If after 15 minutes nobody is here, we can legally leave, right? XD
<captain-tux> You can leave legally right now, but just like in class, that won't help with the outcome.. :P
<Eickmeyer> hehe
<Eickmeyer> Still looking for a quorum...
<Eickmeyer> captain-tux: if nobody's here by 12:30, should we just cancel this meeting until the week after next?
 * Eickmeyer might make an executive decision on that
<captain-tux> Sounds reasonable, I don't have much to report. Also still need to contact eylul.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah.
<Eickmeyer> I'll just do a writeup of our progress reports and things to think about.
<OvenWerks> was up?
<Eickmeyer> Oh! OvenWerks! Meeting time.
 * OvenWerks is cleaning house for people coming over later.... has hard task master ;)
<captain-tux> Hello
<OvenWerks> o/
<Eickmeyer> OH, I thought you meant next week that was happening.
<Eickmeyer> Well, let's just postpone for another two weeks.
<OvenWerks> next week is another.
<OvenWerks> I think -controls is released
<OvenWerks> ??
<OvenWerks> plasma iso in progress?
<Eickmeyer> Doesn't look like the sponsors have looked at it yet. Might have to ping #ubuntu-motu
 * Eickmeyer needs to work on getting Ubuntu membership and MOTU.
<OvenWerks> I will be in and out for the next two weeks... so no reall work.
<Eickmeyer> Okay. We technically have a quorum now, but I think we should just pick-up in two weeks. I'll do a write-up.
<OvenWerks> cool
<OvenWerks> I guess I'm off then... back to work
<Eickmeyer> Have fun!
<Eickmeyer> #agreed Cancel meeting
<Eickmeyer> #stopmeeting
<Eickmeyer> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Aug 11 19:25:45 2018 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntustudio-devel/2018/ubuntustudio-devel.2018-08-11-19.00.moin.txt
<Eickmeyer> Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯ 
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: which DM were you using that crashed on login?
<OvenWerks> Was it still lightdm?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Nope, sddm
<OvenWerks> ok, I have used both anyway... so I don't know.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-12
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Ping.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Pong
<Eickmeyer> (just got home from work)
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Did I ignore/miss your ping, or did you not ping for package sponsorship? ;)
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Well, I had pinged for sponsorship which you answered. What do I need to do to format the calf bug for Cosmic? Or, what really needs to happen, upstream into Debian?
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: The bug doesn't need to be reformatted for Cosmic.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: I'm saying, format the upload correctly.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: i.e. remove the auto build changelog entry and target it at Cosmic.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, okay.
<tsimonq2> Thanks Eickmeyer.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Do you need the debdiff for that?
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: I do.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Done, check bug report, subscribed sponsors.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: tsimonq2 just got -controls released into Cosmic.
<Eickmeyer> http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/05/Ron-Paul_Its-Happening1.gif
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: I'll upload this on one condition; you need to join the Debian Multimedia Team in Debian (it'll maybe take a day to be approved), and join #debian-multimedia on OFTC.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Also, please make a merge proposal for now. I can merge it right away, and when that's done, we can work on a team upload.
<tsimonq2> Eickmeyer: Can you do that? ;)
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: I had gone to bed, but yeah, I can get that done. Probably sometime this afternoon or evening.
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: Done with the Debian Multimedia Team joining and joining the IRC channel as well.
<Eickmeyer> I'll get the merge proposal done this evening, right now my son is insisting with an insistent bell in my ear that I need to play Minecraft with him.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-05
<OvenWerks> huh, if thge only reason people want "unity" or gnome is for the left side panel...
<Eickmeyer> Seems like a silly reason.
<Eickmeyer> Gnome doesn't have a left side panel by default.
<OvenWerks> +1
<OvenWerks> But it does show what sticks out to many users
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<OvenWerks> It's like having a sports car and you passengers only comment is that it has a moon roof...
<Eickmeyer> XD
<OvenWerks> Though calling gnome a sports car is maybe a bit of a streach...
<Eickmeyer> Gnome is the shiny rebuilt hot-rod that's rusting away on the inside.
<OvenWerks> oh, like a new car...
<Eickmeyer> Haha
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: with regard to: https://discourse.ardour.org/t/usb-c-adaptor-changes-audio-sample-rate/101446
<OvenWerks> I am wondering if I should even put a sample rate in the zita-ajbridge lines.
<OvenWerks> I wonder what zita does if the device it opens does not support the requested rate.
<OvenWerks>  I know jack just requests and goes regardless, but I don't know if zita uses the requested SR to calculate it's SRC. 
<OvenWerks> I wish I had such a device to play with I guess.
<Eickmeyer> Yes. There are still devices that requrie the host machine to set the sample rate, such as my audio interface. That said, a Behinger X-32 Mixer will change the sample rate to whatever it is set to, regardless of what is set by zita-a2jbridge.
<Eickmeyer> So, it just completely depends on what is being used. Unfortunately, there's no way to detect that.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<OvenWerks> well there is a way to detect it... but it is not trivial and only something you want to do once.
<OvenWerks> zita will by default try for 48k
<OvenWerks> I just wonder what happens if it gets a 44k1 only device. Does it error out? or just take longer to sync up?
<OvenWerks> For that matter, if the jack master is running at 44k1 and a USB device is plugged in at 48k (only) and zita is therefor set to 44k1, will zita care?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: so, can jack set the SR on your x32?
<OvenWerks> or does it stay where set?
<Eickmeyer> Jack cannot set the SR on the X32. Rather, the X32 sets the SR on Jack.
<marcuswlima> hi everyone !!!
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: great! you can test then...
<Eickmeyer> Sadly, I cannot. I don't have access to an X32 anymore. :(
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: if you use the internal audio set to 44k1 and plug in the x32 while it is set to 48k....
<OvenWerks> Ah :(
<OvenWerks> Hmm, where is my "disney" mic.
<Eickmeyer> lol
<marcuswlima> I would like to collaborate on this community as a tester. What are the first steps?
<OvenWerks> marcuswlima: testing would be for the 19.10 ISO image.
<OvenWerks> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/404/builds/197576/testcases
<OvenWerks> you would need a launchpad account so you can login to record results
<OvenWerks> marcuswlima: at this time we are particularily interested in testing the packages found in: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-ppa/+archive/ubuntu/backports
<OvenWerks> marcuswlima: Eickmeyer (above) is our lead BTW.
<OvenWerks> marcuswlima: you do not need to install the backports PPA to test if you are using the daily image, as these are packages that are already included in 19.10. I only reffer you there because it is a convenient list of what is new.
<OvenWerks> you would not be able to test -installer unless you install another flavour first so maybe leave that one out.
<OvenWerks> -installer has been tested for installing Studio over kubuntu and ubuntu (I think)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Disney mic shows: Rates: 8000, 11025, 22050, 44100, 48000
<OvenWerks> so that won't help
<Eickmeyer> Lame.
<OvenWerks> I guess I need a cheap usb headphone adapter
<OvenWerks> or guitar adapter
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: headphone adapter... price $0.01, shipping $3.98  ;)
<studiobot> <teward001> lol
<OvenWerks> what is amazing is that these headphone jacks offer 5.1 channel arangement...
<OvenWerks> however, if I pay a little bit more ($0.68) then shipping is only $0,99
<OvenWerks> lets buy a few and see if any of them are crappy enough for testing
<OvenWerks> Wow! I can up grade my shipping and get it sooner for only $31 per item  :P
<studiobot> <teward001> lolololollololol
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> LOL!
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Sorry, I'm all over the place today.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-06
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: is it possible to install ubuntu and then use the ubuntustudio iso as a repo to install studio over ubuntu?
<OvenWerks> The download portion of installing studio over <flavour> is very long... ok for a one off, but painful for more than one system.
<Eickmeyer> I honestly don't know. Theoretically, yes.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<OvenWerks> guess I should try it.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the reason I ask is that the ISO does not have actual packages but a file system so as to allow live use with minimum size
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, you'd probably have to mount the casper-livefs image somehow. I do know that the original ISO used to install the system can be used as a repo, but I have never researched how that works.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I think the first test would be to do a partial Studio install (audio only for example) and then try to add video from the iso
<Eickmeyer> Not a bad idea. However, if there's a newer package in Universe, Multiverse, or Main, it will automatically pull from that instead of the ISO.
<OvenWerks> thats ok, fresh iso though
<OvenWerks> It should not be _all_ the packages
<Eickmeyer> A good test would be to disconnect the machine from the internet before doing the install.
<OvenWerks> probably before doing an apt update
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<Eickmeyer> (ERR:NotEnoughSleep)
<Eickmeyer> (ERR:CoffeeIneffective)
<OvenWerks> I have similar, relative died in the Filipines... Yf one skype (or whatever skype like service) in middle of night.
<Eickmeyer> Oof... sorry to hear that.
<OvenWerks> He has been sick since 2015, only 61 years old. The hardest part has been watching how the family has been treating him in his last days. almost "hurry up and die already."
<OvenWerks> My Yf is a nurse so she knows how things should be done and it has been painful for her to watch as she has a very compasionate heart
<OvenWerks> (aside from it being her brother)
<Eickmeyer> That's really too bad. I know how hard it can be for a family to watch someone die for a very long time, and complacency is a thing. But, yeah. That's rough with someone so young. My grandfather was 93 and in the last days it was very hard to watch him suffer for so long.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: in the slide show... the last slide (Title: Thank you!) has prominant text that says 12.04.4 point release  ;)
<OvenWerks> https://imgur.com/IJywOFF.png
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: running this mornings ubuntustudio iso
<OvenWerks> huh, install is now removing the stuff I am going to try installing from iso...
<OvenWerks> First try failed.
<OvenWerks> publishing is downloading. I have to wait till that finishes before I can try something else
<OvenWerks> unpluggin network does not work, ubuntustudio-installer errors out.
<OvenWerks> tried disabling all repos that need network... then ubuntustudio-video is not available (installer shows all sw already installed)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: anudder problem... grub doesn't install correctly on the iso though it seemed to me it was fine when I used installer over <flavour>.
<OvenWerks> the post install does not chmod -x 10linux
<OvenWerks> this may be because of install or setup order.
<OvenWerks> maybe that line should just be incorperated into 09lowlatency so it does -x every time it runs
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: so far as loading off of the iso goes it appears not to work. I can get atp update to say it has read the cd  (three hits) but it does not say it has extra sw to install
<OvenWerks> Anything I have found in my search says: when installing select the upgrade option... or: down load the "alternate" iso (that is not the live iso)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-07
<Eickmeyer> Huh.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-08
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: new version of ubuntustudio-lowlatency-settings (ubuntustudio-default-settings) to fix the install problem.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ack. Will get it uploaded soon.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Done.
<Eickmeyer> @teward001 Where are we at with the raysession re-review?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-09
<studiobot> <teward001> Ask me that when its not storming and my internet is stable
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: That bad, eh?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: The more I look at NSM, the harder I realize it's going to be to package. Basically, the source code includes ALL of the non-* tools, but the tags are for different pieces of the software.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Ya, I noticed that too. So  fork would be best. Maybe next cycle. It is beyond me right now
<studiobot> <teward001> Yep eickmeyer had 3 power outages yestersa
<studiobot> <teward001> Yesterday*
<studiobot> <teward001> And mu UPSes ran out of power too due to lengthOfOutage
<studiobot> <teward001> So i need more UPSes
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-04
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: If you have some spare bandwidth, I did a thing: https://launchpad.net/plasma5-wallpapers-dynamic. It's lintian-clean, copyright is simple, it's made by a KDE member, and would be a great addition for Kubuntu and Studio alike.
<Eickmeyer> Basically, it allows for wallpapers that change throughout the day for Plasma.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-05
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I guess we got a new pavucontrol... the meters are gone.
<OvenWerks> configuration shows a checkbox for "Show volume meters" but that seems to have no effect.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pavucontrol-qt/+bug/1890459
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1890459 in pavucontrol-qt (Ubuntu) "Pavucontrols no longer shows audio levels" [Undecided,New]
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I do not know if Studio (the iso) shows two "PulseAudio Volume Control" menu items, but perhaps we should add a pavucontrol-qt.desktop with a "noshow" if it does.
<OvenWerks> I added "NoDisplay=true" to a copy in ~/.local/share/applications/ so I don't select it by accident.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Interesting. Saw your bug report. Not sure there's much we can do about it on our end, but if it's not fixed by release time, it might be worth putting in the release notes.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-06
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we can add a pavucontrol-qt.desktop file with NoDisplay=true
<OvenWerks> pavucontrol is fine.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Ok. Sounds like a plan. I've got stuff to do with -menu anyhow.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: done with -menu.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: My Mac Mini hates -controls. We might have some work to do.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Issue is in autojack.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/2qxW8wkmQ5/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-07
<OvenWerks> which version of controls? the new one should not be out yet, i think
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: 2.0.4 is in groovy currently, which is what I have.
<Eickmeyer> For future reference, I'm always running latest.
<OvenWerks> hmm, I think I was supposed to tag 2.0.5
<OvenWerks> If you are using 2.0.4 from that release then there are things missing.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: 2.0.4 was not the latest and does not include some bug fixes (I thought I recognised that error). Not your fault. I thought I had tagged 2.0.5 but had not
 * OvenWerks has been crawling under his truck for the past few days.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: No worries, I'll go ahead and get that updated in Ubuntu and Fedora tomorrow.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: 2.0.5 uploaded to groovy/backports.
<OvenWerks> thank you.... and does that make a difference for you?
<Eickmeyer> I'll know in about an hour when it updates on my machine directly from groovy.
<OvenWerks> cool. Is the new zita out for 20.04 yet?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Scratch-that, no.
<Eickmeyer> No clue why. I'll bug the release team.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: No response from the release team. In the meantime, updated in Fedora too, it's live in rawhide, F32/F31 updates are a week out.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-09
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Good news 2.0.5 works. Bad news: pulse bridge autoconnections don't work as they should.
<OvenWerks> bug report? What was expected - what actually happened. debug set to extra logfile of startup.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^ also it may be reasonable to remove the old config file (~/.config/autojack/autojackrc
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's fair. I need to do more testing before I submit a bug report.
<Eickmeyer> Basically, it's not auto-connecting the pulse bridge to the output when it's set to do so.
<OvenWerks> we had it setup to use 1, 3, 5 etc for stereo pairs 1-2, 3-4, 5-6 etc. now we need full portnames.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, it wasn't working with just full portnames either. But, like I said, I might have to do more testing.
<OvenWerks> So resetting the portnames and apply _should_ fix that
<OvenWerks> setting loggin level to debug of extra should drop a whiole lot more into the log file: ~/.log/autojack.log
<OvenWerks> s/loggin/logging/
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I'll give it a shot soon. Working on some other stuff.
 * OvenWerks to
<OvenWerks> too even
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer:  FTBFS in several packages handled in proposed
<studiobot> <teward001> looks like all the stuff i sponsored
<studiobot> <teward001> I am suffering GI problems and potential appendicitis right now so am not able to dig deeper
