#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-18
<falktx> hey guys
<falktx> I've got an interesting bug report I would like to share:
<falktx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kxstudio/+bug/619014
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 619014 in KXStudio "jackdbus file grows to enormous sizes" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<falktx> basically, when using jackdbus, the log file can grow really quick
<falktx> 512mb here, Blank_ from IRC reports 974Mb
<falktx> I'm linking the bug to the jack package
<scott-work> astraljava: are you still having trouble getting a maverick isntall to work?
<scott-work> hi abogani :)
<abogani> hi scott-work :-)
<falktx> scott-work: hi
<falktx> scott-work: i have something I want to to see:
<falktx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/kxstudio/+bug/619014
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 619014 in KXStudio "jackdbus file grows to enormous sizes" [High,Confirmed]
<falktx> scott-work: this will affect ubuntustudio too
<quadrispro> ehyla guys
<falktx> hi quadrispro
<falktx> quadrispro: i wanted to talk to you
<falktx> quadrispro: what do I (really) need to do to get festige into debian ?
<quadrispro> give me an URL, please
<falktx> http://festige.sourceforge.net/
<quadrispro> is fst alive?
<falktx> have to go
<scott-work> hi falktx 
<scott-work> by falktx 
<scott-work> errr bye  :)
<scott-work> quadrispro: any progress on guitarix ?   several ubuntu studio users have been asking about this
<quadrispro> ehy scott-work, I don't know, need to take a look
<quadrispro> falktx, please ping Free
<quadrispro> falktx, the package was part of debian but it has been kick'd out
<quadrispro> ah, this is about fst -> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=402945
<ubottu> Debian bug 402945 in ftp.debian.org "RM: fst -- RoQA; license issues" [Serious,Open]
<quadrispro> which festige depends on
<scott-work> quadrispro...i'm amazed at the work you guys do at debian multimedia
<scott-work> quadrispro: i don't read every mail on the mailing list but i keep up with them mostly...just amazing
<quadrispro> scott-work, yep, most of us are very active: we love our job! :D
 * quadrispro away for a bit
<scott-work> but i can also see the benefit with the way ubuntu handles package updates though
<scott-work> since updating one package can have a hugely cascading effect on other packages
<scott-work> well, at least for a non-robust, smaller amount of developers/contributors
<scott-work> but i also now have a better respect for the way debian handles testing/stable/unstable
<falktx> back
<falktx> quadrispro: still here?
<quadrispro> yep
<falktx> quadrispro: i just noticed jokosher in maverick, thanks!
<astraljava> scott-work: I think it was a one-time issue only. I'm a bit busy at the moment, I'll try again tomorrow.
<quadrispro> falktx, just to ease sync jokosher in the future, the fix was already available
<falktx> quadrispro: did you looked at festige ?
<scott-work> falktx: he said that festige depends on fst which is having license issue
<scott-work> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcbGHsJfPv8
<falktx> not anymore
<falktx> vestige headers
<scott-work> eerrr...scratch that link, my bad
<falktx> I have festige on PPA...
<scott-work> <quadrispro> ah, this is about fst -> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=402945
<ubottu> Debian bug 402945 in ftp.debian.org "RM: fst -- RoQA; license issues" [Serious,Open]
<scott-work> but it still needs to move through the system in debian though and the bug closed
<falktx> festige doesnt apply to this bug
<falktx> festige doesn't need any restricted headers
<quadrispro> falktx, yep, but festige would depend on fst
<falktx> and, btw, if you don't accept the steinberg license, you can freely reverse engineer it
<falktx> quadrispro: festige has it's own fst copy, patched to work the way I need/want to
<falktx> quadrispro: you just need wine and gtk/cairo
<falktx> (not even lash)
<quadrispro> falktx, the information that I have about festige&fst are not up-to-date, so please get in touch with Free Ekanayaka, I'm sure that he's able to help you
<falktx> I'll some time soon
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-19
 * abogani waves
<jussi> hello abogani!!!
<abogani> jussi, Hi Jussi!
<abogani> Anyone could remove all references to -rt from Studio's seeds, please?
<scott-work> abogani: you really want all reference to -rt kernel removed from the seeds?
<scott-work> *sigh*
<scott-work> i've been meaning to update the seeds for some time now
<scott-work> and i just haven't gotten to it...now things are stacking up :(
<abogani> scott-work: Yeah. I don;t have choice I'm ignored at all from UKT so they don't neither upload the old -rt  kernel nor upload the -realtime one. Also -lowlatency (which was the old -preempt and was created and supported by that team) is totally since March.
<abogani> So what can I propose to different?
<abogani> Without upload right the only thing that I can do without depends from others is give up.
<scott-work> hmmm, i don't know abogani, i don't have a good understanding of the UKT and howit works, or quite frankly a lot of the politics involved around the kernel
<falktx> scott-work: hi
<falktx> scott-work: is ubuntustudio interested on a wine-rt patch ?
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=12
<scott-work> i'm not sure falktx, abogani was actually talking about removing the -rt kernel from ubuntustudio-seeds
<falktx> scott-work: this one is different... you should read that page, I'm not the best guy to explain it...
<scott-work> falktx: which programs used in ubuntu studio would need both wine and -rt functionality?
<falktx> scott-work: any wine applications
<falktx> scott-work: also dssi-vst, fst/festige or similar
<scott-work> falktx: while i wouldn't say that any wine application might need -rt i could see dssi-vst and fst/festige needed it :)
<falktx> it's not about the rt-kernel, just making wine apps getting higher priorities
<scott-work> oh, and less dropped audio then, cool
<falktx> eheh, someone finished reading...
<holstein> what is going on with linux-rt?
<falktx> holstein: will be removed from US afaik
<holstein> scott-work abogani jussi 
<holstein> can we wait on that -rt removal
<holstein> theres a couple UKT guys local to me
<holstein> one of them is im my LUG
<holstein> maybe i can help make some communication happen between them and abogani ??
<scott-work> holstein: that would absolutely rock!
<holstein> couple days...
<holstein> i'll get back to you scott-work when i hear from one of them
<holstein> scott-work: this is JFo 
<JFo> o/
<JFo> :)
<scott-work> hi JFo  :)
<JFo> hi scott-work 
<JFo> how are things?
<scott-work> doing okay...can i ask a few questions about the -rt kernel, i'm pretty ignorant about the UKT and how things are messing
<JFo> certainly
<scott-work> i guess first i should ask about the -lowlatency and -preempt kernels...i've heard rumours that they might be included in the main, any thruth?
<JFo> the -rt kernel is community sponsored, but I'll answer what I know :)
<JFo> scott-work, I can find out about that
<JFo> one sec...
<JFo> let me see if I can catch the ear of one of the engineers
<scott-work> certainly, i'm working with one eye anyways :)
<JFo> :)
<JFo> abogani, have you heard anything about them while I'm asking?
<falktx> scott-work: do you really want to remove rt kernel from ubuntustudio?
<JFo> they are usually deep in code, so it may be a minute before they see my request :)
<JFo> so 'preempt is an official flavour for Lucid, not for Maverick' I am told
<scott-work> falktx: ideally, no.  some users will greatly benefit by having the -rt kernel
<scott-work> JFo:  :(
<falktx> have to go
<scott-work> was an rationale offered?  (not trying to sound rude)
<scott-work> falktx: see ya
<JFo> and I am told there is nothing for -lowlatency in Lucid or Maverick
<JFo> scott-work, I can ask about that
<JFo> it is no problem :)
<scott-work> JFo: sorry i'm distracted, i have people coming to my desk and asking questions as work
<JFo> scott-work, <tgardner> the -rt guys are providing a kernel AFAIK, so it was duplicated functionality.
<JFo> no problem
<JFo> we can discuss later if you like
<scott-work> JFo: i would like to explain my concern about the kernels
<JFo> I am all ears
<scott-work> we can certainly create any flavour we like and host it in ppa but the precludes us from it being installed by default
<JFo> right
<JFo> I understand your concern there
<scott-work> we have several types of users who either don't understand ppa's, are unwares of them, or simply choose to not use them
<scott-work> so we lose the functionality for those users
<scott-work> i understand as well that we multiply the work for the UKT by having soo many flavours for such a niche group of users though
<scott-work> i was hoping we can find some compromise that would allow us to provide fucntionality to our users without appreciably increasing the workload on UKT
<scott-work> JFo: i'm not sure i understand your quote about providing the -rt kernel but duplicated functionality
<JFo> sorry, I'm in a meeting so my attention is divided as well
<JFo> let me read back a bit
<JFo> :)
<JFo> I completely understand your comment about PPA;s
<JFo> I'm working on something around that myself now
<JFo> I think that there is a movement toward the -rt, but I have not pushed into it myself
<JFo> I'm not sure why they decided not to have a preempt or lowlatency kernel
<JFo> but I think they are under the impression that the -rt met those needs
<JFo> is that not true
<JFo> or is there an issue in the -rt kernel in this case
<scott-work> i hope other's will chime in as well (for my experience is more with -generic and -rt) but i  ** think ** the -rt will provide what the other two do not, with one caveat
<JFo> ok
<scott-work> laptop users will find that possible the -generic isn't enough but that the -rt might each up too much battery
<scott-work> but please don't misunderstand me, getting the -rt kernel supported would be an incredibly awesome milestone
<scott-work> not to sound to jono-ish, that would absolutely rock!
<scott-work> ;)
<JFo> heh
<scott-work> JFo:  does this mean we might see the -rt kernel available for maverick?  or possibly natty?
<JFo> unfortunately I can't answer that
<JFo> I believe abogani is doing the -rt kernel
<JFo> but I could be mistaken
<JFo> I do know that it is a community effort
<JFo> so I don't have much in the way of detail
<JFo> :-/
<JFo> but there again, it is something I can bring up with the team
<JFo> both so that I can get some detail for myself and so that I can see why we aren't doing it ourselves
<scott-work> abogani: are you around?
<scott-work> JFo: that would be really appreciated!  sometimes it is hard to find the right channels to get accurate information
<JFo> I understand
<JFo> but you can freely ask me or anyone else on the team in #ubuntu-kernel
<scott-work> JFo: i was under the impression that the kernel team wasn't interested in abogani 's -rt kernel , but perhaps i misunderstood his position
<JFo> I'm in there all the time :)
<JFo> scott-work, that isn't my impression
<JFo> but I'd love to talk to him about that
<JFo> and see what isn't getting done for him
<scott-work> i might join #ubuntu-kernel this afternoon when i have more time :)
<scott-work> i hope your impression is right ;)
<JFo> sounds good :)
<JFo> there could always be some miscommunication too
<JFo> all of us have our tons of work :)
<JFo> one thing to consider is that all of these guys are deep in the code, so it may take some time to get to you and your question should you ask one :)
<scott-work> very, very true.... JFo thank you for your time and consideration, it really helps :)
<JFo> it took them a minute to answer me and they work with me :-)
<scott-work> oh, no problem in that, i understand
<JFo> scott-work, I'm always happy to chat
<JFo> any time you like
<JFo> I'll add this to my channel list so you guys can ping me with questions too. I'll answer any I can
<scott-work> sweet, thanks
<JFo> my pleasure
<JFo> and I am serious about being available for your questions. you can send me e-mail to jeremy@ubuntu.com if I'm not online
<JFo> I'll do my best to get the information you are asking for and get back to you
<JFo> if you find that useful
<scott-work> wow, that is very, very gratious of you!  and really appreciated, thank you very much
<JFo> it's no problem :)
<astraljava> Anyone else have trouble with cdimage.u.c ?
<holstein> astraljava: i'll confirm something if you need
<astraljava> holstein: Downloading is clipping real bad. Halts for minutes, then slowly gains bandwidth, then grinds to a halt again.
<astraljava> Might be my connection though, 3G is a joke.
<holstein> yeah
 * holstein just complaining about verizon in another channel ;)
<holstein> astraljava: shoot me a link if you want, and i'll check it out for you
<astraljava> holstein: Thanks, but I'm fairly confident it's my end.
<TheMuso> 6eeee1y/c
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-08-20
<astraljava> ScottL: Hi! Tried again to install maverick, this time installation stops at Select and install software -task. I could go on, except that I have mobile broadband, and I need gdm + NetworkManager to go online.
<astraljava> ScottL: Now I only get console, so it's not enough for me.
<jussi> astraljava: you need a 3g router :D
<ScottL> astraljava, this weekend, if i do nothing else, i'm going to replace gnome-network-admin with network-manager
<ScottL> since it doesn't look like we will get network-admin fixed and i talked this through with luke and daniel and they agreed it was a good idea
<astraljava> jussi: Nah, I'm gonna get ADSL in a few months, so I'll cope with it.
<astraljava> ScottL: I'm gonna do the same anyhow, as it's the only piece of sw that gets me connected.
<ScottL> astraljava, i meant in ubuntustudio-seeds, this way all uses will have network capabilities directly on install :)
<ScottL> since gnome-admin is broke and no one will fix it :(
<ScottL> i tried but am unable
<astraljava> ScottL: Alright, I can give it a shot now. Where did you leave off?
<falktx> it is decided which kernel will be used by default in 10.10 ?
<falktx> generic, preempt, lowlatency or realtime ?
<ScottL> falktx, i don't know, there was some talk with some of the kernel team yesterday and they mentioned the -rt kernel possibly being included
<ScottL> but it looks like the -preempt and -lowlatency might not be included anymore
<falktx> ScottL: 2.6.31-rt or 2.6.33-rt ?
<ScottL> from what i can tell, the UKT are looking to abogani to maintain the -rt kernel and feel that -preempt and -lowlatency is redundant
<ScottL> falktx, i don't know, i need to catch abogani when he's on and ask him more specifics, i hope 2.6.33-rt :)
<falktx> lowlatency is a little better than generic
<falktx> i would prefer 2.6.35-rt hehe
<ScottL> i worry about laptops as well, -generic might not be enough for latency and -rt might eat their battery
<falktx> the kernels 2.6-32->34 don't work well on my pc
<falktx> ScottL: i have a laptop
<ScottL> falktx, i would expect the -rt kernel will align with the -generic kernel release version
<JFo> so 2.6.35.y
<JFo> for Maverick
<falktx> that would be cool
<falktx> I read somewhere the rt guys were on vacation
<falktx> afaik, 2.6.35 is suppose to have rt patch
<ScottL> i think i heard abogani mention that as well
<ScottL> falktx, do you mean upstream -rt guys?   molnar or whoever is handling the patch now?
<falktx> ScottL: yes
<ScottL> hi persia, how are you?
<stochastic> hola
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-15
<astraljava> wget ftp://ftp.funet.fi/dev/100Mnull
<astraljava> 2011-08-15 20:08:49 (11.1 MB/s) - `100Mnull' saved [104857600]
<scott-work> astraljava: i didn't see an email from colin watson this morning about the cd image, i am going to download the daily tonight and test tomorrow
<scott-work_> one thing we may still need to suss out is the GDM replacement...whatsit, lightdm
<scott-work_> i wonder if the xubuntu folks have it working yet
<scott-work_> we may need to lean heavily on their work (i.e. "steal" it) :)
<falktx> I really want to install oneiric, but I still have so many things on lucid to fix :(
<falktx> scott-work_: isn't xubuntu using xdm?
<scott-work_> good question but i thought i remember them talking lightdm as well, but i could be wrong
<falktx> i'm not sure eighter
<falktx> *either
<holstein> AFAIK, lightDM is still borked?
<astraljava> ScottL: Excellent notion. lightdm is what is being used. And we may be in distress when it comes to the greeter. Damn! I knew I had forgotten something.
<astraljava> I'm gonna look into this tomorrow evening, if I don't have to work as much as today.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-16
<jussi> astraljava: nose to the grindstone boy! ;P :P :P :P
<astraljava> Oh you know it. :)
<astraljava> Yesterday, just 15 hours. I'm such a slacker.
<jussi> yep, should be her 23.5. you get half hour rest period per day! :P
<astraljava> Come again?
 * abogani waves all
<astraljava> Hi abogani!
<abogani> astraljava: Hi Janne!
<astraljava> abogani: noticed a weird issue with the lowlatency kernel, possibly. When running the amd64, and suspending the laptop, when we're resuming, and I stick the 3G USB broadband stick in, the kernel would go oops.
<astraljava> But it was sporadic, so I didn't report a bug yet, need to do more testing to see whether it is consistent or not.
<astraljava> Cause I noticed that the machine would do that on -generic randomly when suspending/resuming as well.
<astraljava> Sometimes, not all the time.
<astraljava> And for the past week or so, everything's just worked.
<abogani> astraljava: If persist send the the oops' output please.
<astraljava> abogani: Sure, will do. I'll continue testing on a desktop machine, though, as soon as work business slows down a bit. Hopefully this week, though.
<abogani> astraljava: Ok, thanks.
<falktx> hm, what about a custom GRUB menu?
<scott-work> falktx: ailo i'm going to respond to the emails, just been really busy last night and today, about audacity
<scott-work> the short is that we talked about work flows and what uses are available
<scott-work> ardour seemed to supported the work flows that most people considered important
<scott-work> david did add a work flow about editing the odd audio recording
<scott-work> but it didn't seem like something most people would want to do on a regular basis
<scott-work> that is why i asked about what function it would provide
<scott-work> if everyone is adamant about including it then i'm not going to be a dick about this though ;)
<ailo> scott-work, Audacity is a very important tool. The reason why a music newbie might not know that is the same reason why such a person won't know anything at all about audio apps
<ailo> And if you want to inform the user on how to certain tasks, you show them what apps to use, and how
<ailo> Through documentation
<ailo> scott-work, This is why we need to ask experienced people on what software they use to what tasks, and base workflows on that
<ailo> There's no such thing as a newbie way to do things
<ailo> There's just a good way, and a bad way
<ailo> Or, there are good ways, and bad ways
<ailo> And sometimes what the good way is, is a matter of personal reference
<ailo> I have some experience in using software for audio
<ailo> I know holstein has too
<ailo> I don't know about the rest of the people involved in this project
<ailo> I believe package selection for the standard install of UbuntuStudio should contain apps to cover all standard workflows
<scott-work> ailo: you touched upon a good point...i did ask people and i made decisions based on the input received
<scott-work> also, i am not saying that audacity cannot be used to make very refined products because it can
<ailo> scott-work, Audacity is an audio file editor. It's not a DAW. It has a special purpose
<scott-work> but it seems that most people who are into audio tend to use ardour, perhaps because it is "professional"
<ailo> scott-work, Ardour is a different beast all together. 
<ailo> scott-work, Servers a different purpose
<scott-work> i will be forthingcoming about my feeling, i'm getting a little mad
<scott-work> i asked for input, recieved little, made decisions, and now people are coming behind after things have happened and questioning why it happened and saying that it should have been different
<scott-work> my original concerns when i started the work flows is that people seemed to want certain applications in ubuntu studio either "just because" or that it "seemed like a neat application"
<scott-work> i wanted to make sure that what we had supported something that people actually wanted to do and could fully support it
<scott-work> but as i said, if there is a majority that feel that it is important to put it back into the seeds then i will not object
<ailo> scott-work, I don't feel the work-flows have been explored yet. 
<ailo> scott-work, And choosing packages for them is too early
<ailo> I would need to look at some apps more carefully
<ailo> And also, discover more about plugins 
<ailo> You can do a lot with just a small set of plugins
<ailo> You don't need 2000 of themn
<ailo> If you want to do a mixing work-flow, you choose a set that does the job
<falktx> scott-work: take for example AutoStatic's example. he's does not uses Ardour
<falktx> I guess for people that don't use Ardour, Audacity is a quick way to process samples
<falktx> I use it to, for example, cut some pieces of a music, edit & crossfade and export to the phone (free ringtone!)
<falktx> it seems like loading Ardour just to do some small tasks like this should not be needed, I guess...
<ailo> The fact of the matter is that Audacity is an audio file editor, that is used mainly to process single files, while Ardour is a daw for recording and mixing, and they serve two different purposes. Even though you can do a lot with either of them, they are designed for different things and different tasks
<ailo> Just saw David H's response on the mail list about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows#Simple_recording_of_concert.2C_conversation_etc
<ailo> Hadn't noticed that part had grown a bit
<ailo> It's a good start
<falktx> hm, I think I can come up with some ladish project demos
<falktx> I'll need to install oneiric first though
<ailo> falktx, I believe that would be the best way to create the "actual" work-flows
<falktx> me too
<scott-work> i will reiterate my question about audacity (i'm not trying to be a dick mind you), what purpose will audacity server?  what is the user trying to accomplish?
<scott-work> but i wouldn't say "editing a single file" would be a goal, it is a step of something larger
<scott-work> it's too ambiguous
<scott-work> i had a work flow about podcasts, i think audacity is perfect for this
<scott-work> but i choose not to incorporate the podcast work flow because we can't provide a complete tool chain with what is in the repos
<scott-work> what i'm asking other people to provide a goal, like "producing a podcast", that requires audacity
<scott-work> ailo: i agree with plugins, i don't like that they are all in there
<scott-work> i have removed the ones i could with my current knowlege, for example i removed the swh-pugins when swl-lvs came about (i'm probably buthcering the package names)
<scott-work> i would really like to remove a crap load of them but i dont' feel qualified at this point because i lack expereience and knowledge with them :(
<falktx> scott-work: swh-ladspa are very useful
<falktx> but I dont know much about plugins, sorry
<scott-work> but i can say that i also don't want to just provide a single compressor (for example) because different ones perform differently
<scott-work> falktx: but i replaced it with swh-lv2 which is a port i believe
<falktx> scott-work: yes, but many hosts don't support lv2 yet
<falktx> scott-work: since these plugins are the same, I actually think it's better to keep both versions
<falktx> so users can use the same plugin in different apps
<falktx> (including audacity, hehe)
<scott-work> we are also shipping zynjack with lv2rack so if it works with jack it should be able to use swh-lv2
<falktx> yes
<scott-work> if we choose to ship audacity then we probably should include swh-ladpsa then
<falktx> I guess it's better yes
<falktx> scott-work: if audacity was removed, what other audio editor would replace it?
<falktx> or no just-audio-editor at all?
<scott-work> falktx:  why are you editing audio?  that will help understand which editor is required
<scott-work> qtractor is also shipped currently i believe which is more in line with what autostatic is doing
<ailo> qtractor is great, since ardour has no midi
<ailo> And what else does qtractro have, besides midi, compared to Ardour?
<scott-work> whick is mainly why it is included, it effectively replaced seq24 which is more of a live performance sequencer
<scott-work> ailo: it now has auomatic, but it has allowed plugins for a while
<falktx> midi means synth plugins, so DSSI
<falktx> ardour has no plans for DSSI support
<ailo> Audacity is used mainly for editing samples, doing detailed mastering of single files as well as mixes, and also - it is used to create electro-acoustic musi 
<ailo> For basic use, it's great for just making samples
<ailo> You can do some things on Ardour instead of using Audacity, but since Ardour is not meant for editing audio files on a detailed level, it gets clumpsy
<ailo> Audio editing is becoming more and more a part of DAW's like Ardour
<scott-work> ailo: okay, so a good goal for audacity could be to make samples for sound fonts?
<scott-work> or other samples for other reasons?
<scott-work> including editing podcast
<ailo> scott-work, Any situation where you want to open a single file, do some editing, and save it, or even convert it, Audacity is a good tool for that
<ailo> scott-work, If you're creating a sample-bank, you would probably use a lot of the same settings for a big pool of files
<ailo> scott-work, Like this http://manual.audacityteam.org/index.php?title=Batch_Processing
<ailo> Now, you can do some of those things on Ardour, but not as easily, or as well
<scott-work> ailo: but i'm trying to stay away from generalized statements like "editing a file" because while it sounds tangible it may not be, i'm trying to get at the root of WHY they want to edit a file
<scott-work> without understanding why we can't understand how often this will be used or what other tools might be necessary
<scott-work> i believe this is why the subtitle-editor package was included into the seeds at one point
<scott-work> because someone could "create subtitles"
<scott-work> but the problem was that no one (except one person probably) wanted to do that
<scott-work> also alot of the other tools were included to support creating a movie or whatever other goal you might expect to use sub-titles for
<ailo> scott-work, I don't have time to talk more about this now. All I can say is that Audacity is such a widely used tool, that we had it installed at school on Macs instead of using proprietary software
<ailo> I understand that you don't know what it's for. I would need to think more about it and write up a lot of use case
<ailo> Maybe explain in detail what it means to edit a sound file
<ailo> Sorry for being very blunt. I don't mean to sound like a dick, if I do
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-17
 * astraljava noticed that on #xubuntu-devel, there was a lot of useful talk regarding lightdm(-greeter) while he was sleeping. Hopefully I get out of work early today, so I can start hacking.
<Kokito> howdy
<Kokito> how are my US friends doing?
<astraljava> You're not interested in your EU friends? :D
<Kokito> :)
<Kokito> only US matters to me :)
<astraljava> *hmpft*
 * jussi giggles at astraljava
<astraljava> Shut your trap, jussi. I've had 2Â½ weeks of sh****ness. I don't need no giggling.
<astraljava> And yes, yes I know. This will only result to more laughter.
<scott-work> email sent to the mailing list responding to cory's email
<scott-work> let the shit storm begin :)
 * astraljava starts hoarding the groceries and fresh water
<scott-work> lol
<ailo> ScottL, Good email
<astraljava> ScottL: That was a good email. Thanks for that! I'll respond soon enough, but have my blessings on the target audience (which you were most worried about.)
<ScottL> thank you ailo and astraljava  :)
<ScottL> ailo, you were partially the inspiration for the second email about someone focusing on the "upgrade" path
<ScottL> you had talked about -controls to do this or a single package to install for ubuntu studio
<ailo> ScottL, -controls would have ability to tune the system for low latency in system settings, while adding audio packages need to be done through a package manager. Either the regular ones, or a custom one. Upgrading Ubuntu to US from Software Center, in my opinion, should be a meta-package that includes: kernel, -controls, jack, (fonts and what else), and a basic set of apps. The only difference between the software center upg
<ailo> rade and a full install from DVD would be dropping XFCE dependencies from the "upgrade"
<ailo> And the "upgrade" could be even slimmer yet
<ailo> That's my idea of it, anyway
<ailo> As always, I'm not taking into account graphics and video
<astraljava> -desktop would be the one to draw in the XFCE dependencies anyhoo, so that's easy to circumvent.
<ailo> As ScottL mentioned in the email, I'm not going to be as active in development as I would have wanted. Perhaps not at all. All though, I will still pursue the objects I have had all along: kernels testing and developing a -controls application. The -controls application may turn out to be an unbranded app, which I could try to push into Debian repo.
<ailo> I don't have a time plan right now, though
<ailo> I will want to start with kernel building and testing
<ailo> I'll set up a PPA project for that later on
<ailo> The goal is to find out if -lowlatency is needed and try to push it into Ubuntu repo
<ailo> Just testing the kernel is a challenge for me, so that will take some time to do
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-18
<holstein> ScottL: i wanted to talk about th target audience thing a bit
<holstein> you got a minute?
<ScottL> holstein, sure
<holstein> ScottL: i was really basing my 'beginner' notion more on what i see rather than what i want
<holstein> i mean, thats who i see in #ubuntustudio
<holstein> is that because the savvy dont need help?
<holstein> maybe...
<holstein> either way, i think we should put a time limit on this question
<holstein> just so it gets answered
<holstein> its not going to *ever* be an answer that works for everyone
<holstein> but, if we keep some of the new ideas im mind like what *can* we accomplish with our current team
<holstein> what are our resources
<holstein> and who is here to help
<holstein> i think we can come up with a work plan that we can do, that will target the audience in question
<ScottL> that sounds good
<holstein> i think we should decide on this audience this cycle
<holstein> and be rolling with something next cycle for the 12.04 LTS release
<holstein> with the target audience in mind
<ScottL> much of the current focus probably will need to get the ISO working
 * ScottL admits he hasn't tested yet
<ScottL> :(
<ScottL> but i agree about setting the audience
<ScottL> once the images are working again
<holstein> sure, all im saying is, by the end of this cycle, lets set this audience
<ScottL> we can focus on tightening it up and then maybe work the documentation to help newbies
<ScottL> i think that sounds like a good timeline, maybe even shorter
<holstein> ScottL: shorter is fine by me
<holstein> i thought that was super realistic
<ScottL> what mechanism would you prefer to make sure we "agree" on an audience?
<ScottL> talk in the IRC?  on the mailing list?
<holstein> whatever
<holstein> all of them ideally
<holstein> at some point, i think you'll just have to make the call though
<holstein> and i dont think anyone will really care
<ScottL> i think we may have already done the first
<holstein> i mean, this doesnt change much really
<holstein> just helps us have a focus for the future
<ScottL> do you remember the 64studio documenation
<ScottL> ?
<holstein> its not like anyone is going to lose anything they currently have/do because we choose a target audience they disagree with
<ScottL> that's the direction i would like for us to move for our documentation
<ScottL> i agree with you holstein
<holstein> ScottL: yeah, that old ducumentation is quite nice
<holstein> i think its still up to, for reference
<holstein> ScottL: so, along these lines... whats you elevator talk about the ubuntustudio target audience ?
<ScottL> "elevator" talk?
<ScottL> you might, like, small chit-chat talk?
<holstein> ScottL: yeah
<ScottL> okay :)
<holstein> like we meet in an elevator and i say 'whos that for?'
<ScottL> before that, let me ask you a question that just occurred to me
<holstein> shoot
<ScottL> do you think you see so many inexperienced people in #ubuntustudio because they are drawn to ubuntu studio?
<ScottL> maybe ubuntu studio is just more on the web?
<holstein> see, thats what i want to make sure i leave room for
<ScottL> maybe they don't know/can't find a/v linux or others?
<holstein> most folk might not even turn to the IRC
<holstein> i would like to browse the forums a bit
<holstein> i *hate* forums though
<holstein> and the email list makes me tired
<holstein> i like the IRC
<ScottL> yeah, the forums are tough to wade through for me
<holstein> but, that doesnt mean others do
<ScottL> and it seems like you only see the same people in their own places
<ScottL> not many people visit all three consistently
<holstein> and i want to make sure i have a realistic perspective, and im not too IRC-centric in my opinions
<ScottL> but on to your question:
<holstein> to answer yours (better) i do think inexperienced users are drawn to ubuntu, and by proxy ubuntustudio
<ScottL> i would say that it's a powerful system for the semi-pro band, indie musician, or bedroom guitarist to make or record music but geared to helping the inexperienced
<ScottL> there are lots of documentation to help those inexpereienced but it still offers extreme power and versatility for the experienced as well
<holstein> thats not far from mine
<holstein> tools a beginner can learn to use, and a professional would be happy with
<ScottL> did you read my second email to the -dev mailing list?
<holstein> i skimmed it
<holstein> i need to read it more throughly
<holstein> the bit about 2 potential teams
<holstein> i like that
<ScottL> yeah, i think that can really address the two audiences without stepping on toes or trying to cross coordinate everything
<ScottL> i think we could develop a bigger audience with experienced people if we had a good tool for them to install stuff
<holstein> yup... i agree
<holstein> and i think both things need the seperate attention you are mentioning
<holstein> im *so* stoked about ardour3
<holstein> thats going to simplify the work flow a bit in a good way
<ScottL> yeah, it is :)
<ScottL> do you want help editing the podcast?
<holstein> ScottL: maybe
<ScottL> holstein, maybe we can alternate editing also
<holstein> i think i can knock it out this weekend
<holstein> ScottL: choose the music though
<ScottL> holstein, i'm not really worried about the quality of it to be honest, i just want to get it out righ tnow
<holstein> and send it to me if i dont have
<holstein> it
<holstein> ScottL: we'll get more 'live' too
<holstein> all in one go
<holstein> less editing needed
<ScottL> what i'd like to do make sure we just keep getting it out
<ScottL> every two weeks is fine for me
<ScottL> but hopefully it gets more polished as we go
<ScottL> i'll work on figuring out the beginning music
<ScottL> of course we can still change the music next release or another time
<holstein> can be different each time 
<holstein> no rules
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-19
<ScottL> the image hasn't built for at least the last two days
<ScottL> i'm asking for help in #ubuntu-release
<holstein> ScottL: let me know if i can do something...
<ScottL> *shrug*  don't know what else to do at this moment other than ask for help
<ScottL> holstein, how did your membership go?
<ScottL> i saw you talking about cloaks
<holstein> im in
<holstein> it was cool
<holstein> im still excited about it :)
<ScottL> super sweet :)
<ScottL> hehe
<ScottL> congratulations
<ScottL> sadly i fear it's just a waiting game in #ubuntu-release
<ScottL> TheMuso, do you perhaps have any insight into why the builds aren't happening?
<ScottL> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/oneiric/daily-20110818.log
<ScottL> i have trouble understanding some of the warnings and errors
<holstein> ScottL: i joined too
<ScottL> persia, ^^^
<holstein> not that i can help much...
<TheMuso> ScottL: No. You can check out build logs at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs
<ScottL> TheMuso, i did but i'm having trouble understanding some of it
<ScottL> TheMuso, i was looking at: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/oneiric/daily-20110818.log
 * TheMuso looks.
<TheMuso> ScottL: That particular log looks like it failed due to has sum mismatches in the internal mirror.
<TheMuso> Such transient errors do happen from time to time.
<ScottL> TheMuso, i was also checking regular ubuntu builds, they didn't have the same ones but i had to check yesterdays for ubuntu though
<TheMuso> Right.
<ScottL> TheMuso, should we just wait a day
<TheMuso> Have you talked to cjwatson?
<ScottL> i have a call in #ubuntu-release about help
<TheMuso> Well ti seems they haven't been building for a couple of days, so maybe wait another day, and if still no go, talk to cjwatson.
<ScottL> but i haven't talked to him directly
<ScottL> TheMuso, roger that
<ScottL> sigh
<ScottL> oneiric just can't seem to get any traction
 * TheMuso looks again to see if I missed anything.
<ScottL> i'm probably going to have to shelve a few other projects of mine and focus more on this
<TheMuso> No, that appears to be the proble,
<TheMuso> roblem
<ScottL> hehe, gotcha :)
<ScottL> thanks TheMuso 
<TheMuso> np
<ScottL> TheMuso, did astraljava ask you to refresh the meta packages last week or this week?
<ScottL> i think he was updating something in the seeds
<TheMuso> Yes he did, but I think Colin got there before me.
<ScottL> ah, good :)
<charlie-tca> ScottL: It might be a server error only. I looked at the logs, and the most relevant error I see is:
<charlie-tca> * Fetching branch of http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/platform.oneiric/
<charlie-tca> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/platform.oneiric/".
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: Thats not an error that will stop things.
<TheMuso> Platform.oneiric only exists under the ubuntu-core-dev namespace.
<charlie-tca> Then the server is acting up again, since the rest are missing hashsum errors
<TheMuso> All derivatives have that error, and its not an issue.
<TheMuso> Well given that other images are not built at the time studio is built, it doesn't take much for the archive to be in a state of flux when the cd image build server syncs a copy of the archive.
<TheMuso> SO having has sum mismatch errors is certainly possible.
<TheMuso> hash
<charlie-tca> Yeah, that is what it looks like to me.
<charlie-tca> Got quite a few of :
<charlie-tca> W: Failed to fetch file:/srv/cdimage.ubuntu.com/ftp-universe/dists/oneiric/main/binary-amd64/Packages.bz2  Hash Sum mismatch
<charlie-tca> E: Some index files failed to download, they have been ignored, or old ones used instead.
<charlie-tca> make[1]: *** [/srv/cdimage.ubuntu.com/scratch/ubuntustudio/daily/apt/oneiric-amd64/status] Error 100
<charlie-tca> which usually means the server screwed up again
<charlie-tca> If there is no answer tonight, at least cjwatson will see it on the channel and try to fix it early tomorrow.
<charlie-tca> ScottL: I will follow up on the images in the morning, just to make sure it gets some attention.
<charlie-tca> going rest now. too tired to see good :)
<ScottL> hi abogani :)
<abogani> ScottL, Hi Scott
<scott-work> TheMuso: cjwatson basically said the same thing you did last night about slow sync and it randomly happening
<scott-work> he said he kicked off another try which may or may not work (as you probably are already aware)
<scott-work> cjwatson reports that this time it seems to have worked, i'll check the build later
<scott-work> yay!  looks like it might be good :)  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntustudio/oneiric/daily-20110819.1.log
<falktx> scott-work: us image built sucessfully?
<scott-work> the log appears to show that it did
<scott-work> falktx: i'll download it tonight when i get home if i can remember
<astraljava> The daily directory is 20110819.1, apparently the first one was botched.
<astraljava> So if you're using a script, or come up with links from memory (like me :D), add that dot one there.
<falktx> haha, launchpad super bug
<falktx> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/77597624/buildlog_ubuntu-oneiric-amd64.dssi_1.1.0-3%2Bcustomdata1~oneiric1_CHROOTWAIT.txt.gz
<falktx> wtf? build time just got from 1 hour to tomorrow!
<falktx> hah, and the last upload is only due to day 21... :(
<falktx> I see it!
<falktx> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/daily/current/
<falktx> scott-work: one suggestion - replace vkeybd with vmpk
<falktx> vkeybd uses fltk and it's old
<falktx> vmpk uses Qt (so it has desktop integration) and has more features
<falktx> astraljava: ^
<scott-work> someone also made some suggestions in the mailing list we should probably handle as well
<scott-work> astraljava: did you see the two emails about the pulseaudio-module-jack and the ttf-mona?
<scott-work> it would be nice if we could incoporate these as well
<scott-work> before you do this, astraljava , i have some changes that i can send to you if you are agreeable as well
<falktx> astraljava: yeah, we're counting on you ;)
<falktx> I'm happy to see an US image finally up
 * falktx downloads, ~2h
<astraljava> I did the emails, but thought that I'd chat with you guys about them before I upload the changes.
<astraljava> did see*
<scott-work> astraljava:  i'm good for whenever you want to chat astraljava 
<astraljava> Might be until Sunday, but then definitely Sunday. Are you good then?
<scott-work> astraljava: i will make myself available for you :)
<scott-work> hmmm, that sounded a little (and unintentionally i assure you) homosexual
<astraljava> Well hey, we can talk about that. *blink* *blink*
<scott-work> at least you didn't *wink* *wink*, LOL
<astraljava> Awww damnit! :D
<falktx> 30 mins left!
<falktx> it's here!
 * falktx installs virtualbox
<scott-work> falktx: the ubuntu studio image?
<scott-work> considering how little we have tested at this point i do not expect it to be pretty :/
<charlie-tca> I don't know. Test/don't test still means broken these days
<charlie-tca> but, at least you got images today
<falktx> scott-work: oneiric still has some package issues, so even installing virtualbox can be complicated
<scott-work> charlie-tca: yes, and i wanted to thank you for your involvement, i didn't see your message laast night until very late and didn't read all of it
<falktx> ohoh, scott-work, at least it's booting
<scott-work> well, read all of it at the time, i did read it this morning and was surprised there was quite a bit of dialogue that i had missed from last night
<scott-work> falktx: OH, that's good news :)
<charlie-tca> You are welcome. We just have to keep pushing to get things done. Sometimes it takes a group effort :)
<falktx> it has been a long time since I installed raw US
<charlie-tca> Knowing your hours, just ping me if we need to push the -release people for things
<falktx> scott-work: it's installing the base system
<scott-work> thanks charlie-tca :)
<scott-work> falktx: good :)
<scott-work> falktx: are you installing all the applications?  i.e. tone, recording, plugins, video and graphics?
<scott-work> astraljava: ailo_ : holstein :  i have another idea for new users, we could make a package to include that would show a png for the work flows for basic processes
<scott-work> i.e. we show a flow chart for how audio might be routed to get guitar from the interface, through rakarrack, and into ardour, which finally comes out the speakers
<scott-work> just an idea
<falktx> scott-work: I haven't got there yet. which one do you want me to test?
<scott-work> falktx: whatever you wish, i will test it for all later tonight
<falktx> I'll go with the smallest one
<falktx_> I selected - none
<falktx_> scott-work: failed
<falktx_> scott-work: unity is to blame!
<falktx_> some libnux error
 * falktx_ tries to bypass the error
<falktx_> scott-work: I guess we need to wait for ubuntu to fix itself
<falktx_> honestly, I never saw the ubuntu guys working so hard as now
<falktx_> oneiric changes are massive
<scott-work> damn
<astraljava> vanilla has really progressed a _lot_ during the last two releases.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-08-20
<holstein> ScottL: i think links to a wiki page that house those awesome png's
<falktx> ScottL: this looks a nice addition to US
<falktx> http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs17/f/2007/133/3/e/UbuntuStudio_Gimp_Splash_by_lehighost.png
<falktx> some nice artwork will be needed
<falktx> I like this one - http://azraelthe7thmurderer.deviantart.com/#/d370glx
<falktx> together with faenza icons, just wow... :)
<scott-work> astraljava: did you see the latest email from cjwatson about gnome-session and the unity packages?
<scott-work> i'm surprised (and slightly dismayed) they are included on our image
<scott-work> i guess we need to comb through the seeds again and see what might be pulling them in
<scott-work> i wonder if there is an easy method to discover this
<scott-work> it may be possible that TheMuso might shed some light on this as well from his experiences
<astraljava> ScottL: Damn. Yeah, I need to do that soon. Let me finish doing the dishes and laundry, and I'm on it.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-13
<len-dt> There seems to be no 12.10 build today, but there is a new 12.04.1
<smartboyhw> Hi!
<smartboyhw> Hi!
<astraljava> len-dt: It sounds feasible, but what does vanilla have? I haven't touched it in ages, neither that nor firefox.
<astraljava> smartboyhw_away: For future reference, it's not absolutely required to install another distribution just to test on it. Live session would do the trick just fine.
<smartboyhw> I am back!
<knome> generally, i encourage people NOT to use awaynicks since that just brings more join/part messages to the channels; so please consider not using one
<smartboyhw> knome: New thing, sorry!
<knome> no problem
<knome> there's those /away messages for that; if you set one, the people who are looking for you will see that
<knome> and you can have a longer away message too; think "away" versus "just going to get some snacks from the store, back in 30mins"
<smartboyhw> I did, I said I'm going to maths class..
<knome> ok, in that case, the awaynick was even more redundant :)
<smartboyhw> Hmm
<smartboyhw> knome: Don't forget to come to the meeting today!
<knome> i'll have to see if i have time
<smartboyhw> 1400UTC.
<knome> yeah. but i don't know yet (i'm an entrepreneur, so things ofter come unexpected)
<knome> often too
<astraljava> I'm not, and most every hour is unexpected to me.
<smartboyhw> astraljava: almost every hour is expected for me
<knome> smartboyhw, we are just saying planning isn't as easy as setting a time; people might not be able to come even if they thought and said they would
<smartboyhw> OH!
<knome> even harder in FOSS than a regular office, since it's everybody's "free time"
<smartboyhw> BTW, who
<smartboyhw> is the chair of the meeting?
<knome> if scott is around, probably him. then, probably somebody who knows how to chair one properly.
<smartboyhw> probably astraljava
<knome> ...if he's around
<astraljava> smartboyhw: That's another thing when setting up a meeting. Make sure you can chair it, if no one else who previously has is attending.
<knome> len-dt, bug 1035954 pending IS
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1035954 in ubuntustudio-website-content "No favicon for US website" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1035954
<knome> len-dt, RT ticket #20273
<smartboyhw> Please o/ if you are here
<smartboyhw> o/ please
<knome> smartboyhw, maybe nobody is on?
<smartboyhw> Oh
<smartboyhw> I actually chaired a meeting before
<smartboyhw> In QA
<len-dt> knome, Thank You
<smartboyhw> Hi, len-dt!
<len-dt> Good morning.
<smartboyhw> Good evening
<smartboyhw> Is astraljava here?
<smartboyhw> ping astraljava
<knome> i'm sure he gets the highlight from the first time you type his nick
<smartboyhw> Good!
<smartboyhw> I need to report to him about 12.04.1 testing of Ubuntu Studio x64
<knome> smartboyhw, all testing should be reported to the ISO tracker, not a single person
<knome> smartboyhw, find the tracker at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<smartboyhw> I need to tell her, since that she is the coordinator now. Anyway, testing results will be put to ISO QA Tracker soon
<smartboyhw> knome: Don't think I don't know how to report to ISO QA Tracker
<knome> *he* will read the results from the tracker anyway
<smartboyhw> Been doing this for months
<scott-work> is the meeting in 15 mins?
<smartboyhw> 20 minutes
<knome> smartboyhw, there's the "precise daily"
 * smartboyhw waves at scott-work
<smartboyhw> knome: I'm testing ubiquity
<smartboyhw> scott-work: You are going to be chair, right?
<knome> smartboyhw, i imagine the tracker is still the place where astraljava wants the reports; if there's something more he needs, he can probably just ask you
<smartboyhw> Yep
<smartboyhw> knome: astraljava's a she, right?
<knome> smartboyhw, nope.
<smartboyhw> Uh oh
<knome> at least the last time i saw astraljava, he was pretty clearly he.
<smartboyhw> phillw or balloons said "he" is a "she".
<knome> then they didn't know what they were talking about
<smartboyhw> **** it
<knome> huh? please mind the language, even obfuscated
<smartboyhw> Ok, handed in a pass for 12.04.1 x64
<knome> smartboyhw, just, please; calm. down.
<smartboyhw> SORRY.
<scott-work> i am not going to be able to be in the meeting, this is not a good time because of work
<smartboyhw> Now who IS chair?
<knome> smartboyhw, unless nobody else can chair the meeting, you should
<knome> i'm not able to take part either, except maybe a few first minutes, but those are maybe too.
<smartboyhw> Uh oh, this meeting is going to be of no use.
<knome> let's hope those who said the time is ok will be around
<knome> this is exactly what i was trying to point out earlier with astraljava; just setting a time doesn't mean the meeting will be succesfull, or loaded with attendees
<knome> (even if it sounded it was a good time)
<smartboyhw> Everyone please o/ at #ubuntu-meeting
<knome> well, i need to go
<knome> see you later
<smartboyhw> NO!
<knome> hope you have a good meeting
<knome> yes, i need to go
<knome> see you ->
<smartboyhw> PLEASE GO TO #ubuntu-meeting NOW!!!!
<holstein> smartboyhw: are you chairing?
<holstein> smartboyhw: you need me to dig up the bot commands?
<smartboyhw> Yep, attend now!
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i am only speaking for myself, but i find it slightly rude that you appear to be commanding people to action
<scott-work> we are all volunteers for this project, i am unaware that anyone is paid directly to work on ubuntu studio
<smartboyhw> scott-work: They are not here
<smartboyhw> BTW, the meeting's going well
<scott-work> i am glad the meeting is going well
<holstein> i was going to say that as well.. its just a bit abrasive smartboyhw ...again, your enthusiasm is noted and appreciated
<stochastic> scott-work, are you joining us in the meeting?
<smartboyhw> He's not
<scott-work> stochastic: i will not be able to attend currently, work is prohibiting it currently
<stochastic> okay, ttys
<smartboyhw> That's why he's scott-work:)
<scott-work> things are afoot at work and i will be on IRC very sporadically today
<Len-nb> stochastic, because we have included a google search box in ubuntustudio.org we can not legally make that our home page. This acording knome
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Finished the meeting!
<Len-nb> So I will leave that out. However, our "help" menu item already goes there.
<stochastic> Len-nb, so it'd be best if we moved away from the google search code on the site
<Len-nb> That would be between ailo, knome and scott-work I think
<smartboyhw> I agree
<stochastic> okay
<Len-nb> they are the main contributors
<stochastic> I imagine that provided the search functionality is still functional (it doesn't lead to a google page) they'd probably encourage the switch to allow the homepage linking
<stochastic> but that's an assumption
<Len-nb> The blueprint has a list of bookmarks to include, so I am thinking to make a ubuntustudio folder
<stochastic> sounds smart
<stochastic> would help with maintaining it later
<Len-nb> That may be why Ubuntu quietly switched the default to ask
<Len-nb> The blue print says: -add bookmarks to firefox (forums, help.ubuntu.com, ubuntustudio.org, youtube studio channel?, mailing lists
 * stochastic looks at the current module code
<stochastic> for the website search that is
<smartboyhw> Is there a Ubuntu Studio channel on Youtube?
<Len-nb> I thinnk not yet
<smartboyhw> Then should someone create it?
<stochastic> I can't find one anywhere, I like the idea of having one, but content comes before links
<Len-nb> When someone has something to put there, they can create it
<smartboyhw> Maybe I can help creating one
<Len-nb> Do you have content?
<smartboyhw> First, then ask everybody to put content
<stochastic> maybe Scott has plans
<Len-nb> no, content first
<smartboyhw> OK, so everybody shoot a video that is related to Studio, right?
<Len-nb> We already had problems with an old website that made people think we were dead
<stochastic> though smartboyhw if you want to curate the channel with a call for videos to the mailing list
<smartboyhw> stochastic: I will do that
<Len-nb> people have limited time and video experience
<stochastic> content comes first though, make it good content
<smartboyhw> I will be moderating it, of course
<stochastic> I've got an old talk on Ubuntu Studio on Vimeo that can be transferred
<astraljava> It's the same thing with the unix philosophy; the right tools for the right job. Not everyone are well-suited for video creation, and thus shouldn't.
<Len-nb> scott-work, has a very good eye for visual things
<smartboyhw> Sure he has
<Len-nb> He would make a good moderator.
<astraljava> Len-nb: Didn't he publish a talk on such a topic just recently? And by that I mean during the on-going year. :)
<Len-nb> I am not sure, he has done a few videos though.
<smartboyhw> Bye, I need to go to SLEEP
<stochastic> Len-nb, upon browsing the setup of ubuntustudio.org I see no google search functionality
<smartboyhw> See you guys tmr with progress upgrades on Youtube!
<Len-nb> stochastic, so tha search box goes elsewhere?
 * Len-nb sighs
<stochastic> there's only the built-in wordpress search module being used, nothing to do with google
<Len-nb> So I should be able to make that the home page then
<stochastic> can you find a google reference anywhere on our site?
<stochastic> yes
<stochastic> you should have no troubles doing that
<Len-nb> knome seemed to think there was and as he did a lot of the work...
<stochastic> I'd love to chat with knome about that.
<stochastic> maybe the theme's code needs alteration, but I don't think so from the looks of it.
 * stochastic looks again
<Len-nb> I don't find the word google in the source at all
<stochastic> I see no reason to not use it as our homepage
<stochastic> yay for double negatives and coffee
<Len-nb> I will put it back in. 
<stochastic> we also don't have any google-based plugins installed in our wordpress page
<stochastic> :)
<Len-nb> Good.
<stochastic> knome, please correct us if we're missing something (I know you're away)
<Len-nb> He was talking about the xubuntu page too, so maybe it is their page that has a problem
<Len-nb> They have a link to google on there
<stochastic> okay
<stochastic> scott-work, I notice we still have the old webpage code sitting in launchpad https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-resources but not the new stuff.  Maybe some cleanup should be done one day?  Is it fine to let that old stuff sit there?
<stochastic> Len-nb do you have a link to the latest meta package code for your publishing/graphics split?
<Len-nb> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.quantal
<Len-nb> I don't know where the code is that takes this and creates meta packages is though
<Len-nb> Colin Watson might know.
<stochastic> If memory serves correct, we just ask for the latest branch to be pushed
<stochastic> wow, both graphics and publishing are very bare-bones right now
<Len-nb> Ya, but the ISO is growing. I have been doing most of this one my own.
<Len-nb> I ask what is needed on the list and try to figure out what is best.
<Len-nb> mostly I am trying to get things rolling
<stochastic> yes, great job so far
<stochastic> thank you
<Len-nb> It has been a great learning experience.
<stochastic> For publishing, I would imagine that some LaTex stuff should find its way into the meta.  I'll look into doing that
<Len-nb> I have set lyx as an extra.
<Len-nb> I like it...
<Len-nb> It pulls in a lot of the LaTex stuff
<stochastic> hmm, I don't see that line in my bzr pull, where is lyx at?
<Len-nb> I have in -default-settings in the menu a software_center icon in the publishing menu that suggests extra software for that area
<stochastic> okay
<Len-nb> In other words the user would install it after the ISO install
<Len-nb> I have these sprinkled throughout the menu.
<stochastic> nice
<Len-nb> This is another reason I would like -settings to get released... So I can get some feedback
<Len-nb> But I may as well get firefox and xchat branding done ...
<micahg> didn't I upload -settings?
<micahg> Len-nb: I'm piloting today, so give me a list :)
<Len-nb> -look has been waiting a long time
<Len-nb> seeds to metas
<Len-nb>  and I will add twoo commits to -settings today... next half hour or so.
<micahg> Len-nb: 'ubuntustudio-default-settings UNRELEASED quantal; urgency=low' doesn't work, it should have the version where UNRELEASED is and UNRELEASED where quantal is
<micahg> and is there anything required for 12.04.1?  you're already past initial freeze for that point release and require a 12.04.1 ACK for anything going in at this poit
<micahg> *point
<Len-nb> I will fix that. Can I do that along with firefox branding?
<Len-nb> or should I finish firefox first?
<Len-nb> The word I got from scott-work was that he was not worried about fixing menus for 12.04
<Len-nb> The package is there and done and tested though
<micahg> well, if you want it in for 12.04.1, you should talk to stgraber or skaet in #ubuntu-release, otherwise it can wait
<Len-nb> scott-work, seems have decided wait. I seem to get that from the answers to the bugs too, that so long as it is fixed in 12.10 it is fine
<Len-nb> The other thing is that I am personally running out of time I can work on things
<Len-nb> I am pretty close to finished my contribution for 12.10
<micahg> Len-nb: ok, well, just try to hand off whatever else needs doing to someone else then
<Len-nb> ya, I think I am finished what I have committed to. I won't be gone though just less active
 * Len-nb is going to be in and out for testing
<Len-nb> micahg, ubuntustudio-default-settings is ready for release
<micahg> Len-nb: ok, will have a look when I pilot, thanks
<Len-nb> Thank you.
<scott-work> webchat stopped, relogged, and reading logs
<scott-work> i emphatically hope smarty doesn't create a ubuntu studio youtube channel :/
<micahg> scott-work: you can e-mail him
<scott-work> i probably should, thank you for the suggestion
<scott-work> i do have plans for a series of ubuntu studio tutorial videos, i wanted to include these in the youtube channel
<scott-work> i have already outlined a majority of them and have tentatively schedule to start work in a few months
<Len-nb> scott-work, While you are at it you should look at the logs for #ubuntustudio over the past 24hrs
<scott-work> Len-nb: not -dev, just #ubuntustudio?
<Len-nb> The amount of miss information coming from"us" is no good
<scott-work> oh dear
<Len-nb> Ya, helping user questions
<scott-work> stochastic: yes, the new website code should be dumped into bzr, although i thought there might have been a new branch set up...checking something
<scott-work> stochastic: oh, we just created the team but haven't put a trunk in there yet :/ https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-website
<Len-nb> scott-work, firefox US branding is commited, and there is a try at xchat too. Micah says he will upload it.
<Len-nb> Quote "when he is piloting"
<scott-work> yay!  good work Len-nb :)  you freaking astound me with your progress
<Len-nb> it may be a little more laid back for a bit.
<micahg> Len-nb: sorry, you can't do that with firefox, you shouldn't be installing anything in  usr/lib/firefox/
<Len-nb> That is the way the ubuntu -setting developing package does it
<Len-nb> There is a package for making default-settings packages.
<micahg> hrm, I see that, I think it's problematic though...it might work on ISO images, but not in the archive in general, I'll have to ask about it
<micahg> the problem is, you can't have 2 binaries providing the same files without letting dpkg know what to do with the conflict
<Len-nb> It is also the recomended way from mozila
<Len-nb> would we do a copy over?
<Len-nb> (or mv on top)
<micahg> neither one works well with firefox getting upgraded every 6 weeks
<Len-nb> yuck!
<micahg> alternatives would work, but that's hairy as well
<micahg> with alternatives, you lose any updates from the distro changes to that file
<Len-nb> I tried all the ways I found with google. This was the only one that even worked
<micahg> right, you need to talk to chrisccoulson about it
<Len-nb> So revert for now then?
<micahg> yeah, I can't upload with that in there
<micahg> the xchat fix is innovative though :)
<scott-work> luckily creating a "brand channel" in youtube is not exceedingly easy and it appears that smarty hasn't created on
<scott-work> however, i did send an email to him about NOT doing it, thanks micahg 
<micahg> sure
<scott-work> stochastic: but to address your concern; i agree, we should have the new code in the bzr branch and either delete the old code or move into a VOID directory or similar
<scott-work> knome: would you be able to help us get the website code into a trunk under the ubuntu studio website team?
<scott-work> ah, stochastic, this is the team, i can add you to it if you would like: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website
<scott-work> oh, nevermind, you are already there
<stochastic> scott-work, it was just an observation in my digging.  Figured you'd be keen to organize the team's launchpad pages.  I'll chat with knome about getting the code.
<scott-work> stochastic: thank you, while i am keen on organization i just haven't been as active this cycle
<stochastic> p.s. long time no talk.  we should catch up.  I'll likely be around a healthy dose more in the foreseeable future
<scott-work> oh good :) i would like that
<stochastic> understandable scott-work you went hard for 12.04 and earlier, it's fine to take a little breather every so often :)
<Len-nb> micahg, -settings is fixed
<micahg> thanks
<Len-nb> micahg, question, should I do US firefox branding the same way as xchat?
<micahg> Len-nb: well, if you'd like to link to the home page like that you certainly can from a packaging standpoint
<ailo> Hi everyone. Been having some computer problems. Hopefully all solved now
<Len-nb> I was thinking a ubuntustudio submenu with our webpages. Sort of an extended help
<micahg> wfm
<micahg> but you'll probably want buy in from project members :)
<Len-nb> Ya, unless there is a way to add bookmarks... A bit frustrating. I am not sure why firefox would sugest doing something in a way they will write over on upgrade.
<Len-nb> micahg, right now I am more interested in seeing what we have so far available for testing.
<Len-nb> Also, our blueprints look like we aren't doing much FWIW, the release will let us test and mark them done
<Len-nb> scott-work, I don't know if you got the conversation between Micah and myself, but setting up firefox bookmarks the way firefox suggests (and ubuntu BTW) will work at first install, but get overwritten by any firefox upgrade. :(
<scott-work> hmmm, that's kinda crappy...and Ubuntu does this too? that's probably a bug
<scott-work> could we set up a folder perhaps?
<scott-work> i'm answering your email btw
<Len-nb> Ubuntu does not do that. they mod the source. The package they provide for making a default-settings package does though
<Len-nb> scott-work, that is about what I had... I had to revert it out though because of the above issue.
<scott-work> maybe the best answer is to put these things into the menu under a "Support" or similar menu item
<scott-work> Len-nb: were you able to mock up a work flow thingie after we talked last? i know you had one already
<scott-work> i ask that because i was wondering if you were able to create an icon as a "header" to the work flow
<scott-work> the current panel can't do that - from what i can tell - it wants to create an actual icon for an actual application as the "header"
<Len-nb> I can use whatever icon, I had been using the transmission icon. I have not made any.
<scott-work_> sorry len, didn't see if you typed anything or not, webchat dropped connection
<Len-nb> scott-work, It is the same as the main menu but with one more line to point at the new menu file.
<Len-nb>  I can use whatever icon, I had been using the transmission icon. I have not made any.
<knome> hmm, the search is just internal site search
<knome> the code is currently under ~knome/junk/
<knome> but yeah, i've been planning to move it under the US teams
<len-dt> scott-work_, email in list
<len-dt> big changes in .1 ISO (14% diff)
<micahg> kernel/firefox
<len-dt> That would do it.... 
<len-dt> That will make some people happy.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-14
<smartboyhw> Hi!
<smartboyhw> hi!
<smartboyhw> Hi!
<knome> yes, we can hear you
<smartboyhw> knome: How's the Ubuntu Studio website!
<smartboyhw> ?
<knome> uhm, it's fine.
<smartboyhw> Good!@
<smartboyhw> Hi falktx
<stochastic> lol I'm glad it's fine knome
 * smartboyhw waves at stochastic
<falktx> :S
<stochastic> hey smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> Hi
<smartboyhw> Busy testing daily build of 12.04.1, helping someone in #ubuntu-testing
<stochastic> oh you know we never did set the next meeting time at the end of the meeting, though there wasn't enough people to really make it matter
<stochastic> anyways I'm off to bed
<smartboyhw> What?
<smartboyhw> I think we'll have one before Beta 1
<stochastic> ok
<smartboyhw> Actually, anyone know what's -dt and -nb mean for Len?
<stochastic> netbook and downtown?
<smartboyhw> ...
<smartboyhw> We'll ask him later, then
<stochastic> *desktop
<smartboyhw> notebook and desktop, that works
<smartboyhw> Thanks, stochastic
 * smartboyhw waves at falktx again
 * smartboyhw waves at scott-work
<scott-work> hi smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Really, how are you going to plan the YouTube channel?
<ailo> smartboyhw: Did you start working on documentation yet?
<smartboyhw> ailo: What docu do you want me to write first?
<smartboyhw> I don't even know what to write
<ailo> smartboyhw: I can't do the work for you, cause then I would be doing it instead of you. 
<smartboyhw> I know, give me a suggestion on what to write.
<smartboyhw> I will write it out
<ailo> But, the guideline is, it should be a simple documentation for users on how to use Ubuntu Studio
<scott-work> smartboyhw: do you use ubuntu studio to create any content?
<smartboyhw> Maybe video
<scott-work> "maybe"?
<smartboyhw> Yep, I only use it on video
<smartboyhw> Also publishing
<scott-work> i don't mean what could you do in the future, I am asking what do you currently use ubuntu studio to do
<smartboyhw> Publishing and video
<scott-work> then write about those topics because you have practical knowledge
<smartboyhw> OK
<ailo> smartboyhw: Yea. Just start something. A couple of pages, and show it to use. We'll give you input
<ailo> Show it to us*
<scott-work> exactly
<scott-work> just document your work flow for doing a particular task
<smartboyhw> Guys, it takes 1 day for doing this
<ailo> It doesn't need to be finished today
<smartboyhw> So you need to wait
<scott-work> that's fine, not much we do is immediate gratification :P
<ailo> smartboyhw: We have patience
<smartboyhw> I think I will write about publishing first
<ailo> Sounds great
<smartboyhw> I think I will finish the draft in 1 - 2 days
<ailo> np. It will probably take many weeks to finalize the documentation
<ailo> We still need to work on the other areas as well
<smartboyhw> Yep
<smartboyhw> ailo: What sorts of areas?
<ailo> I'll do audio, but not until much later
<ailo> We'll need something for each workflow category. But, we might also need something on just basic desktop usage
<ailo> Short and concise
<smartboyhw> Writing the publishing documentation
<ailo> len-dt: I'm just about to build some kernels. configs of interest?
<ailo> I'll at least build one with tickless timer
<ailo> And I'm omitting the threadirqs patch, so we can do that manually between boots
<ailo> I'll have the tests ready sometime this week. Still need to go through each one and decide which are tweakable during runtime
<smartboyhw> ailo: If I have written the documentation can I join the documentation team in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure
<ailo> smartboyhw: Sure. The teamstructure is more as a place for people to know who is doing what, in case someone wants to ask questions
<smartboyhw> Oh
<len-dt> smartboyhw, you can work on anything without being on a "team". Just attach a file and email it. or make a personal branch and point us at it.
<smartboyhw> OK, I will sent you all the draft 2 days later
<ailo> Anytime you are ready. No hurry
<ailo> len-dt: I'll also build some rt kernels. There's no patch for the 3.5 however. Seems like they don't do patches for the odd numbers
<ailo> Would be good to get a picture of how big a difference there is between -lowlatency and -rt
<len-dt> ailo, sounds like fun.
<len-dt> ailo, I think some people use -rt just because.
<ailo> len-dt: I agree
<len-dt> I think some people feel we use -lowlatency just because too.
<ailo> I think most people don't realize why we have it in the first place. 1. they don't know it's actually very good perfomance wise (probably just as good as -rt) 2. It's foolproof easy to mantain
<ailo> I have an -rt on this Debian platform.
<smartboyhw> Yeah, I got someone complaining about the -lowlatency kernel in #ubuntustudio
<ailo> they have an -rt in the main wheezy repo
<ailo> smartboyhw: What kind of complaint?
<len-dt> I think having a clean system is more important than people realize.
<smartboyhw> Asking why we use low-latency
<smartboyhw> BTW, I got someone to use Ubuntu Studio today.
<ailo> smartboyhw: I would not label asking why we use lowlatency a complaing
<ailo> complaint*
<ailo> Anyway, I gotta go. bb in a few hours
<len-dt> bye
<smartboyhw> bye
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Still here?
<smartboyhw> o/ if you are here.
<holstein> ?
<smartboyhw> Oh hi holstein
<smartboyhw> How are you today?
<holstein> not bad... tired... sore... feeling good
<holstein> and you?
<scott-work> hi holstein :)
<smartboyhw> Fine, just finished writing 1/2 of the Ubuntu Studio publishing documentation that he asked me to write.
<holstein> scott-work: \o/
<smartboyhw> Hi scott-work
<scott-work> smartboyhw: what type of publishing will your documentation explain?
<smartboyhw> Document, probably newsletters
<smartboyhw> I will focus on professional publication making
<scott-work> smartboyhw: do you actually make newsletters or professional publications?
<smartboyhw> Newsletters
<scott-work> good! i very much look forward to getting good information on making newsletters
<smartboyhw> yay!
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i ask because i desire to have the "right" applications included for a particular task
<smartboyhw> OK
<scott-work> and by "right" i mean applications that people actually use to make real things that other people really want
<smartboyhw> !?
<scott-work> let's put this in the perspective of a professional:
<scott-work> i know some people who use FOSS software to make a real magazine
<scott-work> i value their input because they are using the same tools that i want to use and that are available
<scott-work> i also value their input because they are doing this professional, meaning they have a product of value and people desire this product
<smartboyhw> scott-work: Do you work at a marketing department?:)
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i do not, i am an engineering supervisor
<smartboyhw> scott-work: From the above sentences I think you are better to be in marketing:)
<scott-work> however, i feel that one of my strengths is breaking things down into easily understandable concepts and organizing
<scott-work> so, i value the professionals input, probably more than someone who doesn't have any work experience or portfolio and knows "exactly how to do this"
<scott-work> i also value the professional more than just someone who can figure it out and get something done, even if that "something" is a good product
<holstein> fact is, we likey wont attract pros til the "proffesional" tools are written for our platform
<holstein> the industry standards
<smartboyhw> ...
<holstein> there are folks who are certain protools is literally the only way to make a recording
<smartboyhw> What do you mean by "industry standards"? It's hard to define
<holstein> i think the graphics/video folk are more particular even
<holstein> smartboyhw: nah... protools is the industry standard... adobe lightroom...
<scott-work> i say that because the professional probably has experienced problems and discovered solutions for them, so they have experience to guide a better work flow most likely
<holstein> microsoft office
<holstein> this is fact... 
<smartboyhw> holstein: You can't port M$ office to Ubuntu
<smartboyhw> Only LibreOffice
<scott-work> holstein: i wonder if some perceptions are changing however
<scott-work> i agree that there are going to be isolated areas that will not change
<holstein> smartboyhw: im not suggesting we do.. however, microsoft *can* 'port' it to linux if they want
<smartboyhw> You mean that I should stop writing things for publishing and instead go for photography and video?
<holstein> scott-work: seems like android might be helping? not sure.. but it does seem that way to me
<holstein> smartboyhw: im just talking outloud my friend
<scott-work> smartboyhw: not at all, i value all input
<smartboyhw> OK
<holstein> trying to help determine a target audience
<scott-work> smartboyhw: and i apologize if i unintentionally slighted you, i was directing any of those comments directly at you, i do not really know your experience
<scott-work> errr
<scott-work> "i was NOT directing any...."
<smartboyhw> Yeah, it's time we attract more professional users to use Ubuntu Studio!
<scott-work> sorry :)
<holstein> i know, i personally try and teach and show folks in more of a general computer science mind frame... how to get from point a to point b, rather than "heres how to use ardour"
<smartboyhw> :)
<scott-work> holstein: i mention a change in perspective because of people buying apps from "app store" and even google online tools
<scott-work> it shows that you _don't_ need the conventional tools to do things
<holstein> scott-work: i like how online tools are easily cross platform
<scott-work> just a shift in perspective, but it could build momentum
<holstein> easy to access... already backed up... syncronized
<holstein> lots of positives assuming the security is acceptable
<scott-work> has lots of advantages
<scott-work> i think personally this is how the entire world will move eventually
<scott-work> we will be holding "dumb terminals" and all processing done in the cloud, as well as storage
<holstein> i cant say i mind... thats what i try to get users to do, just out of the ease of it
<smartboyhw> scott-work and holstein: You two both sounded like Steve Jobs...
<holstein> use Gdocs... gmail... evernote... dropbox
<holstein> change OS's whenever you like
<holstein> use literally whatever machine anywhere anytime
<holstein> its handy
<holstein> i think taking these ideas and implementing ones own alternatives, such as owncloud, is the ultimate "right" answer
<holstein> not that i even personally care to take the time to maintain an owncloud server ;) ...i cant expect my mom to do that
<scott-work> yeah, it will take a generation before most people will be able to accept cloud based computing and storage as "the norm" or even acceptable
<smartboyhw> But cloud IS the future
<smartboyhw> maybe they're afraid of security
<holstein> or, just someone like apple to just do it in the background, and not tell you 
<holstein> "access your documents from anywhere" with no explanation of the security or services
<holstein> not that thats all bad.. i suggest apple to users i think its an appropriate match for
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i would say that it (the cloud) is too big of a shift to what they know and are comfortable using
<holstein> most folks still have no idea... they buy a machine, it "comes on".. they use it... 
<scott-work> most older people who use computers are comftable with a desktop computer on which you install microsoft windows
<holstein> my girlfriend teaches computer classes at a high school.. professionally.. went to school for that
<scott-work> you tell them you can replace windows or the OS and they think you want them to buy a new computer
<scott-work> to them windows IS the computer
<holstein> she's *never* installed an operating system
<scott-work> wow, that's kinda ...disturbing in a way
<smartboyhw> ...
<smartboyhw> I'm 14, and I know how to install Ubuntu
<holstein> we are asking a lot of a user.. to decide the machine is "not working" and to determine its the operating system.. assuming they no what that means
<holstein> then, install a different operating system
<holstein> *none* of my engineer friends could handle that
<holstein> maybe one.. but he still preffers sonar on XP
<scott-work> also, i think the success of android in the mainstream market (albeit most likely a tech savvy "mainstream") will benefit linux and ubuntu studio as well
<smartboyhw> holstein: They are s****heads
<scott-work> gives it legitimacy it didn't have before
<scott-work> smartboyhw: please watch the language
<holstein> smartboyhw: age doesnt matter.. its a matter of expeience, and folks just dont do that
<smartboyhw> ...
<scott-work> aye
<holstein> you're not supposed to, and with all the iDevices and android phones and tablets... you dont do that
<holstein> you buy what you buy
<holstein> and thats fine.. its just something i think we need to think about as a community
<smartboyhw> Looks like a 14-year-old is even better than an adult that teaches computer classes
<holstein> maybe go the preconfigured hardwrae route like system76
<holstein> smartboyhw: again, it makes no diffrence your age.. only experience
<scott-work> i've got to get real work done
<holstein> scott-work: o\
<smartboyhw> scott-work: o/
<smartboyhw> holstein: I don't have much experience
<holstein> smartboyhw: cool.. then imagine what it must be like when you say to someone "try ubuntustudio, heres a live CD"
<holstein> or worse yet.. "heres a link to a download page"
<smartboyhw> holstein: The worse yet one isn't worse, the first one is more worse
<holstein> you have much more experience right now than arguably 90+% of computer users ;)
<smartboyhw> I don't have a Live CD
<smartboyhw> I just have a 4GB USV!
<smartboyhw> *USB
<holstein> smartboyhw: again, i think you are getting caught up on the details of my statement
<holstein> what im suggesting is empathy for the non-technical norm
<holstein> this does not mean they are not "smart" or "technical" even.. in context, i am much less technically proficient than scott-work 
<smartboyhw> OK
<smartboyhw> I'm much less technically proficient than all of you
<holstein> but, i think we can all learn a lot by thinking about that user who has no idea what you mean when you say "kernel" or "operating system"
<smartboyhw> Kernel is difficult to learn
<holstein> the target audience for me is no one now
<holstein> i dont try and convert anyone anymore
<holstein> not by force, thats for sure
<smartboyhw> But then operating system is not difficult to learn
<holstein> folks come to me, and they say "why do you have no viruses" or "why does your stuff always work"
<holstein> thats when i talk about it.. and i say "you dont want to usre this.. its challenging, and totally worth it"
<smartboyhw> holstein: Really, that's great
<holstein> but i suggest trying other options.. other alternatives... other os's.. i want folks to get whats best for them
<smartboyhw> I agree
<holstein> is linux the best choice?.. thats a matter of opinion, and my opinion is, i can do whatever i need in linux, and you can to
<smartboyhw> holstein: Did you try yo build the new 3.6 kernel?
<holstein> but, that doesnt mean that this ficitious person cares about that.. they might just want to "hit the button" and get some work done with some software they are comfortable with that they understand
<holstein> took me quite a while to switch from cubas on XP to ardour on linux... and i wouldnt have it any other way
<holstein> but, someone with a buisness... they might prefer protools on osx.. they are making the $$ to afford the tools, and i cant say 'ardour is *so* much better"
<holstein> i can only say "i prefer JACK, and like the routing, and the open-ness of the community"
<holstein> and share my work, and let it stand.. and if they want to talk shop, we can...
<smartboyhw> holstein: You sort of ignored my question
<smartboyhw> 16 lines above
<holstein> smartboyhw: i wouldnt say "sort of"
<holstein> smartboyhw: i was talking... and you asked a question
<smartboyhw> holstein: Please finish your long speech...:)
<holstein> smartboyhw: while i was typing a response, you state i ignored you
<smartboyhw> Sorry
<smartboyhw> Not sure if you are going to respond after such long lines of typing
<holstein> smartboyhw: this is what i meant the other day when i suggested waitng a few minutes
<smartboyhw> OH!
<holstein> smartboyhw: i would say, for you, you can wait a good 10 minutes before firing off anyting like that
<len-dt> holstein, I was thinking about the session manager and realizing in win/OSx they don't need it because most DAWs include everything in one program and the program is the session. I am guessing that is the direction ardour is headed.
<smartboyhw> Sorry
 * smartboyhw waves at len-dt
<holstein> i am capable of missing a question, no doubt.. but you should know and trust this community enough by now to know you are not going to be purposefully ignored smartboyhw 
<len-dt> just reading the back scroll got me thinking.
<smartboyhw> holstein: I've been purposefully ignored somehow in the past few days
<holstein> smartboyhw: no worries.. im just explaining what can come off as "abrasive" from your "netiquette"
<smartboyhw> Don't worry, I got a mentor to teach me "netiquette"
<holstein> smartboyhw: everyone everwhere are volunteers
<holstein> folks get busy... i joined #ubuntustudio, asked a questions.. i think a week later stochastic answered me when he was around
<smartboyhw> Wow!
<smartboyhw> A week!
<holstein> ive been hanging there ever since, trying to at least greet everyone, and make sure they get redirected, or know that we are not dead, just busy and small
<holstein> smartboyhw: ive waited much longer than that
<holstein> smartboyhw: a day is typically what i suggest on the irc.. that way all the timezones have had a chance to go around
<astraljava> When things get very specialized, fewer people can answer the questions. You just gotta learn to wait for that someone to drop by.
<len-dt> smartboyhw, I often type several lines and get the response the next day. I have learned never to say hi or are you there.Just type what needs saying and wait... or go away for a bit.
<holstein> smartboyhw: anyways... i have not built my own kernel yet.. i have not compiled one at all, though i still read about it occasinoally and plan to
<holstein> smartboyhw: i "still* havent read len-dt 's post above, but he knows im going to...
<holstein> len-dt: im not sure... i know there is a proposed new sound system? klang?
<holstein> len-dt: other DAW's dont have the interoperablility we do, so i think its a non-issue
<holstein> len-dt: i would love to have a few minutes with las in private to know what he thinks
<astraljava> Isn't it still quite infant?
<len-dt> holstein, klang is a yet to be.
<holstein> astraljava: i think its still a dream
<holstein> i dont think theres any code yet, right?
<astraljava> Most likely.
<len-dt> It wasn't supposed to even be anounced yet as there is no code. Just an idea
<smartboyhw> ...
<len-dt> holstein, I was thinking of a session manager for other than audio nad as I thought I was going it maybe doesn't make sense.
<len-dt> The workflow is different.
<holstein> len-dt: quite differnt
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Are you in for the QA meeting tmr?
<len-dt> When you were talking about the professional use of other OSs I realized they are mostly one app does it all.
<holstein> its the first thing i would miss, and keeps me on linux for sure... but the typical protools user has no idea
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Don't know yet. We'll see tomorrow. It's about that time when I either get out of work, or am freakishly busy at the office still.
<len-dt> So session management is a linux idea.
<holstein> len-dt: the idea of JACK running "first" or "in the background" is quite different
<smartboyhw> astraljava: Ok, hopefully I will see ya then
<len-dt> holstein, I have been looking at nama, not because we should include it but out of personal interest.
<len-dt> I am realizing there is a whole other workflow for CLI 
<len-dt> I have a friend who is a blind computer tech and am realizing how a GUI can be a hindrance and not a help.
 * astraljava suddenly gets interested
 * smartboyhw gets interested too
<len-dt> I am remembering that at lot of our softsynths are CLI apps with gui wrapers.
<astraljava> len-dt: Would you think of some scripts or the likes as tools for such a work flow?
<len-dt> I think it would be interesting to have a non-X audio server/box that can be used standalone for someone who wants that or can add extra function to a gui machine using using netjack.
<len-dt> nama is a set of scripts in perl for  ecasound
<astraljava> Fascinating.
<len-dt> Anyway, just thinking "out loud".
<astraljava> I hear ya. No pun intended.
<smartboyhw> "out loud" so that it is logged
<smartboyhw> :)
<holstein> smartboyhw: think of #ubuntu-meeting as a "common area"
<smartboyhw> holstein: Why?
<holstein> its a place where one must be aware, and and keep it clear and clean
<smartboyhw> Isn't it #ubuntu or #ubuntuforums or #ubuntu-offtopic?
<holstein> its important to  check the schedule, and be respectful in there
<holstein> thats where the main teams meet and do buisness... sometimes thats the only contact they will have for who knows how long
<holstein> its important that they be given the opportunity to be as efficient as possible.. like it was when we had our meeting there
<smartboyhw> Don't you think I know, I'm chair sometimes on QA
<holstein> smartboyhw: cool... what i see you doint right now in ubuntu-meeting is coming off as "in the way"
<holstein> smartboyhw: i feel you are about to be officially reprimanded, and i am giving you a polite heads-up
<smartboyhw> "officially reprimanded" what does that mean?
<holstein> to which, you can repond with either "no thanks, i know what im doing" or "ok, thanks"
<holstein> but, you will not hit be with  "i know"
<smartboyhw> Please improve my English vocab:)
<holstein> because, you dont know.. otherwise, it would be more clear to me why you are disrupting a meeting, or that you are supposed to be there
<smartboyhw> holstein: Did I disrupt a meeting?
<holstein> smartboyhw: i dont know? are you part of that meeting?
<holstein> smartboyhw: im just trying to give you a heads-up man.. do you thing
<smartboyhw> Can't I just idle there/
<holstein> smartboyhw: sure.. but you are not idle there.. you are commenting in the meeting that you are not a part of
<smartboyhw> But that's related to Ubuntu Server
<smartboyhw> I'm contacting to see if I can help in testing
<holstein> smartboyhw: sure.. but thats not where or when to do that
<holstein> you can literlaly google "ubuntu server team"
<smartboyhw> You thoughy
<smartboyhw> I did do it
<holstein> imagine we were in the middle of our meeting the other day, and someone came in and said "hey guys, i want to help"
<holstein> its not the place to do that.. and its fine that you dont konw that... but im telling you, right now
<holstein> asking the team during their meeting *is* disruptive, and again, your enthusiasm is noted and appreciated
<smartboyhw> holstein: Do you know how old am I?
<holstein> im only giving you a 'heads-up'.. some actions like that recieve punishments that i dont think you would appreciate
<smartboyhw> holstein: Just guess
<holstein> smartboyhw: again, its not your age.. its your experience... and i think you have a mature does of both, and greatly appreciate you being here
<holstein> dose*
<smartboyhw> I mean, guess it
<smartboyhw> Bye now, need to sleep
<holstein> smartboyhw: enjoy!
<len-dt> holstein, thank you very much!
<holstein> len-dt: :D ...i should have probably did that in a PM.. but i wanted to keep it constructive
<len-dt> It helps keep people like me calm. I have been quiet rathger than say something I would not want to.
<astraljava> holstein: It's alright to keep in here. Other people will see what has been done, and he also learns that polite and constructive discussion can be had publicly as well.
<scott-work> holstein: paul on klang -> http://ardour.org/pd_on_klang
<scott-work> not surprisingly, paul is direct to the point and knowledgeable 
<astraljava> Thanks, scott-work! a GOOD READ. :)
<astraljava> meh... caps
<scott-work> oh good, i wasn't sure if my post went through, webchat dropped irc again :/
<scott-work> i thought it was interesting as well
<holstein> astraljava: cool... i was thinking something along those lines.. keep it public for transparency if nothing else
 * holstein reading about KLANG scott-work 
<holstein> scott-work: well, that does it for me... im convinced
<scott-work> i would be interested if the klang people came back and rationally and articulately addressed paul's comments
<holstein> scott-work: we can only hope.. i wish they'd offer to work on JACK instead.. or ubuntustudio!
<scott-work> but i imagine (although i could be completely wrong) they will just say paul is wrong and stupid without any evidence and go on doing their stuff
<holstein> i would probably want to react like that as well though... at first
<scott-work> holstein: i believe that many people who do these types of things (i.e. "i'm going to make a new sound server and screw all that other stuff you're already doing...i'm not helping you...i'm creating the future!!!!") are not philantrhopic people, they aren't doing it to better anything for everyone, they are creating something for themselves
<holstein> hopefully they know who he is
<scott-work> and by "creating something for themselves" i believe that to be fame and notoriety, not software
<scott-work> yeah, i'm a little jaded and i would be really glad to be wrong though
<scott-work> jeez, work is crazy these days and going to get worse for a while before it gets better
<holstein> scott-work: :/
<scott-work> *shrug* it is what it is
<ailo> scott-work: The person behind Kland did answer the forum
<scott-work> ailo: oh ho, i should read the comments then :)
<scott-work> was it a crap answer or an articulate one?
<ailo> scott-work: Also, the discussion kept going on a different forum
<ailo> scott-work: He's quite serious. But, first of all, he never announced Klang. That was the first mistake in Pauls comments
<scott-work> ah, i will have to look for this later one
<scott-work> that's exciting news then
<len-dt> It is hard to tell unless you are developing audio drivers and really know as much as they do.
<ailo> I did some background check on this guy. Someone posted a youtube video about him on LAU list
<ailo> He does game engine hacking on his sparetime
<ailo> But works as a system admin somewhere in Germany
<scott-work> wow, some very serious heavyweights of linux audio posting in the comments so far
<knome> stochastic, re: the website code in LP; i need some access to https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-website
<knome> i'm in the website team, but i might need to be admin; scott needs to do that
<knome> LP says that there's no branches in that product, and probably only admins can create those
<knome> scott could also create that branch, and then *maybe* i would be able to push to that
<knome> there's also *this*: https://launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-website-content
 * stochastic looks
<knome> i think either of those products are actually redundant. you only need one product
<knome> we're doing it like this with xubuntu: https://launchpad.net/xubuntu-website-wordpress
<knome> we have a branch for plugins, theme and countdown banners there
<knome> while that is not quite how branches are usually used, it works for us
<knome> (yes, we have xubuntu-website product too, but that's the old website, and we should get rid of that)
<stochastic> knome if you can merge your branch with this: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-resources/website that would be the best solution for now
<knome> but that's the old website branch too
<knome> but i suppose i can try that
<knome> i'll do that in the next 30mins
<stochastic> yes, that's the old website, but if we don't merge the new code into there then we'll have two different branches both claiming to be current
<knome> mmh.
<knome> but if i merge there, the studio website products are unnecessary too.
<knome> bug managing is easier if you have a product
<stochastic> yes, there seems to be multiple products that are empty and lacking of purpose
<stochastic> we'll need to run any further changes through scott
<knome> yeah
<stochastic> he has owner status over things from what I see
<knome> yup.
<knome> stochastic, oops, see #xubuntu-devel 
<knome> :)
<stochastic> yeah, I'm not too worried about the history knome
<knome> me neither, just wanted to check with you.
<knome> i'll do that push in a minute
<knome> looks like i need to upgrade the branch format too :)
<knome> don't know how long that takes, but doing
<knome> gneh, some "diversed branch" stuff
<knome> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-website/ubuntustudio-resources/website-wordpress
<knome> that's it!
<knome> the last commit is bogus (eg. empty, just a commit message)
<knome> i'll leave my branch for now, we have one IS request pending there :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-15
<ailo> So many problems this week, I feel like barfing..
<smartboyhw> Hi!
<holstein> o/
 * holstein is tired... about to crash... got a 6 day run here, and ive been on vaction too long.. im out of shape ;)
 * smartboyhw waves at holstein
<smartboyhw> holstein: Are you dead with the (tired...about to crash) message?
<micahg> len-dt: looking over -settings, r134 seems a little weird, the xfhelp4.desktop is Xfce help, not Xubuntu help, I'm not sure you want to change that
<smartboyhw> Hi micahg
 * smartboyhw waves at micahg
<micahg> hi smartboyhw
<len-dt> micahg, Are you telling me I forgot to change the text?
<micahg> len-dt: no, I'm saying the change might be inadvertent or the wrong file might have been changed
<len-dt> It was pointed at nothing before
<len-dt> micahg, What I should do then is make a new desktop file and do it all US
<len-dt> at this point it will have to wait for tomorrow or a later release as I do not have acces to the other machine.
<micahg> len-dt: well, Xfce help is valid in US as well, you might want to alter the About Xubuntu if you had such a thing to say About UbuntuStudio
<micahg> len-dt: I also noticed some menu file moves that weren't documented in the comments
<len-dt> micahg, I don't think we have the xfce stuff to point to any more
<micahg> I was wondering if they were inadvertent as well
<len-dt> menu file or desktop file or position of instance in the menu file?
<micahg> len-dt: ah, you should just rename xfhelp4.desktop to ushelp.desktop or something like that
<len-dt> There should only be one menufile
<len-dt> Ya, I think that would be best. I don't have access to the machine that is set up to do bzr though
<micahg> ok, no rush
<micahg> len-dt: when you get there, take a look at the output of 'bzr log -rtag:0.35.. -p', that's what I'm reviewing and you might see some interesting unexpected things
<len-dt> I will redo the whole help section. And look through commit and comments vs diff
<micahg> len-dt: I see why you did what you did, Xubuntu has a bug in it as well, the xfhelp4.desktop should be xubuntuhelp.desktop
 * micahg takes a look at -look
<len-dt> micahg, That would be wrong too. It should be ubuntustudio-help.desktop
<micahg> you can call it whatever you like as long as it doesn't collide with anything else :)
<len-dt> It was left from last cycle. I just made it work
<len-dt> That makes sense
<micahg> len-dt: also, I don't think you want a mime type on the extra listings in the menu, those are to help other applications find what to open certain files with
<micahg> len-dt: sorry to throw this all at you in IRC, but there's no merge proposal or bug to comment in
<len-dt> micahg, thankyou I will do that. I just used a copy of the main software-center which as you point is wrong.
<len-dt> I'm writng email to myself.
<micahg> len-dt: well, cut and paste is a good start, over time you'll learn what you're cutting and pasting so you can edit it properly :)
<len-dt> This cycle has been very much me learning
<micahg> len-dt: you're doing great
<len-dt> I hadn't done any coding at all for about 5 or 6 years.
<micahg> len-dt: I'm still learning and I'm a core dev :)
<len-dt> But I am mostly self taught anyway.
<len-dt> micahg, when I finished tech school, I had learned two good things: this is just to get you going, never stop learning and "the more you know, the more you know you don't know"
 * smartboyhw waves at len-dt
<len-dt> micahg, has the seeds to meta set up started working?
<smartboyhw> Hi len-dt
<len-dt> Hey smartboyhw 
<micahg> len-dt: no, I haven't got it working yet, I'll try to chat with cjwatson about it on Friday
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Is it that len-dt means desktop and len-nb means notebook?
<len-dt> micahg, thankyou
<len-dt> smartboyhw, desktop and netbook
<smartboyhw> Oh, netbook
<smartboyhw> I don't like netbooks
<smartboyhw> Sorry, is there a Ubuntu Studio Twitter channel?
<len-dt> smartboyhw, sometimes I use -live if I am testing a live dvd or 12.10 if I am testing that.
<len-dt> twitter? whats that... for old ladies?
<smartboyhw> len-dt: That's a microblog
<smartboyhw> You must be joking, man
<len-dt> I haven't looked at those.
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Received my e-mail on call for testing?
<smartboyhw> (Also applicable for micahg)
<len-dt> Micah doesn't read our mail much.
<smartboyhw> oh, does he?
<len-dt> He is not really US so much as ubuntu
<smartboyhw> Hmm
 * micahg helps with uploads
<len-dt> He has enough to do already.
<smartboyhw> Well, yep
<smartboyhw> len-dt: How's the ISO testing going?
<len-dt> I did two today 12.04.1 and 12.10 both i386
<len-dt>  It is pretty easy to find out just look at the archives on the testing site
<smartboyhw> New 20120814.2
<len-dt> As long as we get one live and one install we are fine.
<smartboyhw> For 12.04.1
<smartboyhw> len-dt: I'm mainly focusing on 12.04.1 now, only do 12.10 testing after 12.04.1 release
<len-dt> Whatever you have time for, thats what I am doing. Tomorrow I have to fix the stuff for Micah.
<smartboyhw> OH!
<smartboyhw> I will do some 12.04.1 testing to tonight
<len-dt> Anyway, I am off to bed
<smartboyhw> Got a maths class to go
<smartboyhw> Bye, len-dt!
<len-dt> Bye
<micahg> len-dt: would like to try to clean up some lintian warnings in -look tomorrow, I can e-mail you the details?
<len-dt> OK.
<len-dt> do you need my address?
 * len-dt thinks its all over everything I'v done
<micahg> len-dt: same one as in the changelog?
<len-dt> Ya
<smartboyhw> len-dt: Where's the 12.04.1 changelog? Who's writing it again? I forgotton
<smartboyhw> #forgotten
<len-dt> smartboyhw, so far as I know we haven't done any changes to 12.04. The changes are the saem as for vanilla.
 * len-dt goes to bed
<smartboyhw> It's stochastic's job
<smartboyhw> bye, len-dt!
<smartboyhw> micahg: Stii here?
<micahg> smartboyhw: yes
<smartboyhw> Away!
<smartboyhw> Hi
 * smartboyhw waves at falktx
 * falktx waves back at smartboyhw
 * smartboyhw waves at krtaylor
<smartboyhw> falktx: How are ya today? Happy with Ubuntu Studio?
<falktx> smartboyhw: ok I guess, how are you?
<smartboyhw> Fine!
<smartboyhw> Tested another build of 12.04.1
<smartboyhw> That change nickname trick is a joke at #ubuntuforums, sorry!
 * smartboyhw waves at Len-nb
 * smartboyhw waves at scott-work
<Len-nb> GM smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> GE Len-nb
<Len-nb> scott-work, I'm fixing all the lintian errors in the -look package left over from last cycle
<Len-nb> There is one last one I am not sure about
<Len-nb> No, I think I have got it.
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: How is your testing
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, I am not testing right now, bug fixing.
<Len-nb> scott-work, the ubuntustudio-look package comes with a logo in the root directory but does not seem to install it.
<Len-nb> scott-work, do you know where it is supposed to go?
<Len-nb> or is it fine in the root directory?
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: Maybe ScottL is too focused at work:)
<Len-nb> smartboyhw, he will answer when he has time, no worries.
<Len-nb> scott-work, actually, as far as I can tell the distributor-logo.png included in the -look package does not get installed.
<Len-nb> micahg, is there any way to change the comment on a commit after the fact?
<scott-work> Len-nb: i'll be honest, i was kludging things together in a bit of a vacuum and mashed together the existing ubuntustudio-look and xubuntu-default-settings packages, the distributor-logo.png in the root directory might not be needed at all
 * smartboyhw waves at scott-work
<scott-work> hi smartboyhw 
<Len-nb> scott-work, ok, Ill look at some other flavours when I have time to see if I can find a use for it.
<Len-nb> s/use/ use or need
<scott-work> Len-nb: one thing i was supposed to work on with micah this cycle was having some of the images generated at build time, this might tie in to that as well
<Len-nb> scott-work, I think you are thinking about the -settings package.
<scott-work> ooooh, yeah. that is correct, sorry for the noise then, Len-nb  ;)
<Len-nb> scott-work, really we should put all our icons in /usr/share/icons
<smartboyhw> Len-nb: I agree so that we can use it commonly
<Len-nb> But that is more work than I have time for
<scott-work> i am going out of town this weekend, but i think after that i will have some time and could look into this
<smartboyhw> Er, OK
<Len-nb> scott-work, ok... I will be having less time in the next few weeks.
 * Len-nb may disappear for a week or so
 * smartboyhw may disappear for Ubuntu testing, server testing and mythbuntu testing
<scott-work> Len-nb: understandable, you have been working quite a bit on ubuntu studio this cycle
<scott-work> Len-nb: smartboyhw: did you two manage to test 12.04.1 and report it?
<smartboyhw> Tested today, didn't I
<smartboyhw> Yep, I did
<Len-nb> 2 or 3 times
<smartboyhw> 1 only on 64-bit today
<Len-nb> scott-work, has it froze?
<smartboyhw> Should have been
<scott-work> that's good :) thank you both for that
<smartboyhw> :) I like testing, it's easier
<holstein> *yawn* 
 * smartboyhw waves at holstein
<smartboyhw> Hi holstein
<holstein> good day sir!
<smartboyhw> Bye!
<micahg> Len-nb: re commit comment> no, not really
<Len-nb> Ok, when I fixed -look. I should have kept your comment. The last commit is really yours.
<Len-nb> I hadn't realized you had made changes and did a merge.
<Len-nb> micahg, I am sure I did it the wrong way. but not sure how to fix it.
<micahg> Len-nb: what did you do?
<Len-nb> I made fixes to my local branch of the -look package for the lintian problems then I couldn't push it. so I thought I would merge my fixes in... but it merged your fix to mine.
<micahg> Len-nb: no, it's fine, just do a bzr pull next time before you starting committing
<micahg> my changes and changelog are still in there
<Len-nb> Yes, I figured that out. I normally check for changes, but didn't this time.
<micahg> bzr log -r-1 -p --include-merges would show it
<Len-nb> micahg, I am almost finished an email to explain the oddities in -settings
<Len-nb> micahg, email sent
<Len-nb> scott-work, got a minute?
<Len-nb> I am just adding a ubuntustudio submenu to put our info, help etc in.
<Len-nb> I was wondering if the xfce4-about item should be inside that menu as well.
<Len-nb> scott-work, while you are answering that :)  I would suggest calling the firefox branding item DONE with a note that shows these instead.
<Len-nb> Unless you would prefer to leave it TODO in case someone else can figure it.
<Len-nb> I would however, suggest to leave the home page alone as mozilla licencing could give us grief.
<Len-nb> scott-work, after thinking about it for a bit, I don't think it makes sense to leave the xfce4-about item outside the submenu. So I will put it in. Tell me if I should remove it.
<micahg> Len-nb: so, are both -look and -settings ready for another review?
<Len-nb> sure
<micahg> ok, will try to squeeze it in this week
<Len-nb> micahg, OK
<Len-nb> Thankyou
 * astraljava cheers for Len-nb and micahg
<len-dt> astraljava, its mostly menu stuff. Some clean up from last cycle
<astraljava> That's good. Last cycle was such a hassle, I couldn't wait to get out of it. :D
<knome> it's the same with every cycle
<astraljava> True, but maybe it was life outside of *ubuntu, but I was really tired of precise cycle.
<len-dt> I would really like to see it uploaded so others can look at it all
<len-dt> I would like opinions and comments
<knome> astraljava, yeah, and you had to be so precise all the time...
<len-dt> just a tad
<astraljava> len-dt: Yea, it'd help. :)
<astraljava> knome: I tried, but you know me...
<knome> yeah.
<knome> like saying jussi01 shouldn't laugh in 6 months.
<len-dt> Question knome and astraljava , there is a blueprint item that says add release notes... is a pointer to our website cover that?
<astraljava> len-dt: Yes, release notes can be on our website.
<len-dt> Guess I should ask ailo if he is going to create such thing...
<knome> that's what we're doing with xubuntu too.
<len-dt> I think I will add a not to that effect
<knome> paste the highlights to web, and point to the full tech release notes in the wiki
<astraljava> len-dt: Are you referring to the point release of precise? Have we any changes other than updates to vanilla packages?
<len-dt> As per the blue prints, I have created an info submenu. This is not for precise.
<len-dt> Any changes for our prcice are from vanilla
<len-dt> *precice
<knome> that's where all the C's been going that have been missing from MY messages
<astraljava> Right, so a very simple one saying that is needed for the point release. But we have plenty of time for the quantal notes.
<astraljava> knome: I C.
<knome> eww
<knome> i hate that
<knome> "I C Money"
<len-dt> If you are like me it is from a distance
<knome> lol
<knome> i actually don't see a lot of money
<knome> it's just the visa
<astraljava> I have it, too. These days it's in eight pieces, as the people behind the registers tell me "There's no money!".
<scott-work> len-dt: i'm not sure that having the xfce4-about adds that much to our distribution, i'm good either way of including it in the submenu or removing it
<len-dt> scott-work, ok
<len-dt> scott-work, I was thinking it should be there rether than on the main menu.
<scott-work> len-dt: agreed
<len-dt> scott-work, already commited...
<len-dt> I'm trying to figure out how to put it all in the blue prints... what to make off. Though I have to wait for the upload to call it done.
<astraljava> scott-work: Did you pay attention to reasons why the CDimage mails were held in the queue the last time?
<len-dt> scott-work, I have marked firefox branding POSTPONED
<scott-work> len-dt: if it isn't viable for us, then we can postpone it or forget it
<scott-work> we probably should re-explore how we can provide this information to users if the submenu isn't enough
<scott-work> astraljava: i have not
<len-dt> scott-work, I don't know what to use to forget it unless I remove it from the BPs
<scott-work> postponed is probably good enough
<len-dt> OK done then
<scott-work> we can not include it in next cycle's blueprints if it isn't working
<scott-work> "isn't working" means we can't find a solution for the problem, not that "postponed" isn't working :P
<len-dt> There are some legal aspects
<len-dt> Ok, just moved about 5 BP items to my name as INPROGRESS pending release.
<scott-work> yay!
<astraljava> I know I still have the last meeting's logs to read, but what are the most urgent tasks to finish, re: precise point release AND quantal?
<scott-work> astraljava: ooooh, ooooh, i vote the ubiquity plugin
<astraljava> How are we doing with the -lowlatency for .1? Any updates on that?
<astraljava> scott-work: Ok, I could work on that before FF.
<scott-work> although there is word that the ubiquity plugin may be borked due to other changes, but i don't know the specifics
<scott-work> maybe a quick discussion with stephan graber would clarify this
<len-dt> ubiquity has changed a lot. One of the high points is that it tries to not copy things like itself to the users hard drive on install
<len-dt> It used to copy everything and then do some package remove ops
<len-dt> So it should be possible to have lots of apps on the live DVD/ISO and yet not install them all. Then have a post install part of the install (like there is for mp3 playing now) to install user chosen metas
<scott-work> does anyone have any changes they feel that 12.04.1 *HAS* to have or can I tell -release and kate that we are good to go?
<len-dt> This would be a ubiquity plugin
<astraljava> scott-work: I'll ask him tomorrow, thanks for the heads-up!
<scott-work> len-dt: i'm not sure we can add that to 12.04.1.
<len-dt> scott-work, It would be really nice to have a new kernel... but really the big thing is that the user doesn't have close to 200 updates right after install
<astraljava> len-dt: Yes, but from that, it doesn't sound like what I was planning to implement, anything really has changed.
 * micahg was going to suggest kernel as well, but it's a moving target anyways
<micahg> i.e. as soon as you update, it's out of date, so meh
<len-dt> 12.04 was really quite good.
<scott-work> len-dt: agreed, but we are waiting for apw to meet his commitment on this
<astraljava> micahg: True, but we haven't seen an update to -lowlatency on precise since the release.
<scott-work> astraljava: i thought luke bumped it a few times
<len-dt> nope
<micahg> astraljava: right, so it probably has ~100+ CVEs open ATM, but you have to update that on a regular basis anyways, so if it missed the ISO, it won't make much of a difference
<astraljava> Oh, well now that you mention it, I haven't run precise since May. Sorry for the noise. :-(
<astraljava> micahg: Yes, I do understand that.
<len-dt> I use it on both my machines, no new kernels.
 * scott-work is embarrassed to say that he is just starting to really use it again
<scott-work> i installed it and that machine has set quietly alone for a while as i focused more on video
<scott-work> but i'm started to demo songs again for a new album (with an actual mixer/masterer)
<len-dt> So far I would be quite confident to run 12.10 on both when it comes out.
<scott-work> len-dt: why do you say that "12.04 was really quite good" ? i'm curious
<len-dt> perhaps it that 11.10 was ... but 12.04 seems to be really solid.
<scott-work> hehe, yeah, 11.10 wasn't all that great
<scott-work> half implemented xfce transition and all
<scott-work> i do agree with you, len-dt
<len-dt> I haven't had any issues on it. Jack does have its wee strangenesses still, but that is not our fix.
<astraljava> len-dt: quantal has been the most stable devel cycle evah.
<scott-work> i had really hoped that 12.04 would be a new water mark
<scott-work> many felt that 8.04 was that pinnacle, and i really wanted 12.04 to replace that
<astraljava> Dapper FTW!
<len-dt> I'm still keeping 10.04 on a disk for gcdmaster.
<scott-work> okay, time for me to go home
<len-dt> I'm not happy with the way ardour deals with that
<scott-work> well, pick up kids and then go home
<len-dt> Bye
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-16
<smartboyhw> Hi!
 * smartboyhw waves at hansfbaier
<hansfbaier> hi
 * smartboyhw waves at hansfbaier
 * smartboyhw waves at falktx
<falktx> \o/
 * smartboyhw waves at scott-work
<scott-work> good morning smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> scott-work: If you are here: Who are the ops of #ubuntustudio and #ubuntustudio-devel?
<smartboyhw> Uh oh, FinalFreeze today
<scott-work> smartboyhw: i believe i have ops rights for both channels, astraljava as well, maybe holstein as well
<ailo> len-dt: lowlatency on Quantal has tickless timer by default
<ailo> Also, -generic
<smartboyhw> Hey ailo
<smartboyhw> Hey len-dt
<len-dt> ailo, ok, I am just doing some midi testing now.
<ailo> smartboyhw: How's your documentation work going?
<len-dt> hello smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> ailo: I need to rewrite it after scott-work's instructions the day before yesterday
<ailo> len-dt: what sort of testing?
<len-dt> I think my through stuff is remaking the packets... looking for better hardware.
<ailo> smartboyhw: Have you shown to anyone yet?
<len-dt> I have a track on qtractor with 20 notes at the same time.
<smartboyhw> nope
<smartboyhw> As I said I need to rewrite it
<len-dt> then I am going out and in and rerecording.
<ailo> len-dt: rerecording audio, or midi?
<len-dt> It looks like the instrument I was using for through is not direct through but reques the notes to go out again.
<len-dt> midi.
<len-dt> There is an 1/8 note difference from note one to note 20
<ailo> smartboyhw: Well, if you really think so. Otherwise, just show it, so we can give feedback. 
<smartboyhw> ailo: I have deleted the whole thing and rewrited it!
<smartboyhw> rewriting, I should say, not rewrited
<smartboyhw> len-dt: How's your MIDI?:)
<scott-work> hmmm, i'm not sure what i said that would cause you to delete and completely rewrite your documentation, smartboyhw :/
<smartboyhw> It did:):(
<smartboyhw> The original one was to just promote software
<smartboyhw> The new one was to create a scenario and be a fluid introduction to actually do it
<ailo> scott-work: I think what you were talking about with him was a good starting point for documentation, namely writing up a workflow example of what he deos
<ailo> I think that might be the best place to start
<ailo> I'm also a bit concerned with the work load of writing workflows, at least if we want to have a complete set.
<ailo> Which is why I'm focusing on basic user guides to begin with
<ailo> That is really what I eas requesting from smartboyhw
<ailo> I don't have a clear picture of how a basic user guide would look like for publishing though
<ailo> Other than showing which applications to start
<ailo> for audio, there's the obligatory introduction to linux audio
<ailo> For graphics, video, publishing and photography, I think at least for three of those there's things like monitor calibration
<ailo> len-dt: Been using the -rt kernel on Debian now for a couple of days
<ailo> Can't say I'm too impressed
<ailo> Building kernels now, btw
<Len-nb> ailo, I am not seeing any timing problems with or without tweaks using a USB midi port and qtractor out to record at qtractor in.
<Len-nb> All I am seeing is the delay the midi IF is adding because of the serial speed
<Len-nb> qtractor uses alsa midi, so I did everything there.
<ailo> ok
<Len-nb> Nothing on using jackmidi
<ailo> I was going to include alsa midi testing in the testing suite, but I will just focus on audio for now
<Len-nb> I think I will have to do the same test with a higher system load.
<Len-nb> And more irq activity
<holstein> stochastic: mikeh789 is me BTW... i expired from the testers group if you get a ping about that
<Len-nb> ailo, I have 4 softsynths, hydrogen, qtractor all going. cpu freq scaling just once in a while bumps up one step. jack shows dsp as 33-40%.. oh and firefox is running too... about 15 tabs.
<Len-nb> memory is heading for swap :P
<Len-nb> About to reboot to stock no tweaks I'll see if it is enough. I may have to set cpu to lowest speed to see anything.
<ailo> len-dt: Doesn't seem like all cpu freq uitilities set governor for all cores, only the first
<ailo> My tweak will set it manually to all cores
<Len-nb> The one that comes with ubuntu does. It looks though all cores and sets each.
<Len-nb> What  I am saying though, is that it might be nice to set some thing other than full speed.
<Len-nb> In this case I seem to run out of memory before cpu anyway, so why not run one speed up from half?
<ailo> Makes sense, as long as the governor is set to performance
<ailo> I mean, set to a fixed frequency
<ailo> but that's only for the sake of saving power
<ailo> the RAM problem has more to due with the desktop configuration, and which applications you are using
<Len-nb> Or how little ram I have
<ailo> I'm thinking of what to include in -controls as far as cpu freq tweaking goes
<ailo> Can't include more RAM anyway
<Len-nb> BTW, ailo, I can't see any trouble with max-user-freq=3072. Cpu usage does not go up, or fan turn on or desktop slow down...
<ailo> len-dt: Did it improve anything, though?
<ailo> len-dt: I'm only now looking at userspace control for the cpu freq
<ailo> Ah, never mind
<Len-nb> Still testing that... so far I haven't got it to break :P even with no tweaks.
<ailo> seems like my builds are working.  i686 kernel builds should be ready by tomorrow
<ailo> I'll share using ubuntuone or some other service like that
<ailo> len-dt: So, it might be interesting to be able to change not only between cpu governors, but also choose a fixed freq?
<Len-nb> I would say just choose freq. The top freq is the same a performance anyway.
<Len-nb> *as
<ailo> len-dt: Except, ondemand will change frequence no matter which to freq you use
<ailo> As I've concluded, it is the actual change between frequencies that may introduce xruns
<ailo> Not the freq itself
<Len-nb> to use a spec freq, you have to change the gov to user
<Len-nb> Then set freq
<ailo> Sure? Not just change the top freq in /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/cpuinfo_max_freq to one of the available frequencies?
<ailo> Misprint
<ailo> I meant scaling_max_freq
<ailo> And, no. Doesn't seem like it
<Len-nb> download/install cpufreq
<Len-nb> use cpufreq-set
<ailo> I'd rather not have -controls depend on additional tools
<ailo> Since it can be done manually
<Len-nb> Yes, but it is faster for testing and explains what things have to set first before others
<Len-nb> Or with others
<Len-nb> Even look at the man page online
<ailo> I'm reading the linux man right now
<ailo> Doesn't seem to be working on this system
<ailo> No errors, but the freq value doesn't stick
<ailo> using userspace, editing /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu0/cpufreq/scaling_setspeed
<Len-nb> I think the speed can't just be any speed, when I do a cpufreq-info it lists the available speeds: available frequency steps: 1.60 GHz, 1.33 GHz, 1.07 GHz, 800 MHz
<Len-nb> When I set gov to userspace, the speed locks at full (1.6g)
<Len-nb> I can then set the speed to 1.33g and it stays.
<Len-nb> ailo, there must be something that tells you which speeds your system supports.
<ailo> Len-nb: How do you check that the cpu freq stayed?
<ailo> I was using freq-set now, which was not able to do that
<Len-nb> I have a cpu speed app running
<Len-nb> also cpufreq-info tells
<ailo> cpufreq-set*
<ailo> I don't find anyneed for cpufreq-set in this case. It doesn't do anything other than what I do manually, both reading and writing. Don't know if it has to do with this system, or kernel
<scott-work> astraljava: are you doing the -release email?
<scott-work> ailo: Len-nb: is there anything that should be mentioned for the -release meeting?
<Len-nb> for .1? Not really unless it is we did no changes.
<ailo> Len-nb: Seems like Ubuntu does things differently. I was using debian, and apparently, the directories aren't the same
<Len-nb> :)
<ailo> It's a little annoying. seems like the debian way is the standard way
<Len-nb> It seems i can set my speeds to .8G, 1.33G and 1.6G. Even though 1.07 is mentioned, setting manually to that gets 1.3G
<ailo> Ah, maybe it's because this is a virtual install
<astraljava> scott-work: Yeah, I'll wrap it up in a few hours.
<Len-nb> ailo, it seems 1.07 is actually just a bit less than that. If I set 1.06g I get 1.07g
<Len-nb> Setting cpu to half speed seems to take dsp load from 50% to about 60% as compared to ondemand
<Len-nb> 100% cpu load is 100% if the freq is fixed.
<Len-nb> In any case, qtractor does not show any improvement that I can see with setting group or freq on the rtc/hpt.
<ailo> Len-nb: I guess we should think about disabling /etc/init.d/ondemand
<len-dt> It has some problems
<len-dt> The worst one is that it takes effect 60 seconds after login.
<len-dt> So anything done in rc.local is ineffective
<ailo> Since we don't want it to control the governor, I vote for just removing it
<len-dt> How do we do that "correctly"?
<ailo> Don't know
<len-dt> Probably running the deal that changes the link to a K99
<len-dt> I don't think it is just one package that can be blacklisted
<ailo> I guess we can use -controls to disable it, as soon as someone wants something else than ondemand
<len-dt> That would be best. The one for jackdsp sensing seems to just turn preformance on at jack startup
<ailo> This should do it: update-rc.d ondemand disable
<ailo> len-dt: Which one is that?
<ailo> I mean, the jackdsp sensing thing
<len-dt> Ya that was one I was thinking about.... After you do that though... ondemand will still be there
<len-dt> let me check
<len-dt> http://rg42.org/oss/jackfreqd/start
<len-dt> ailo, read all the comments, they explain things a bit better.
<len-dt> the one " I intent 'jackfreqd' to do the same as you do: switch to
<len-dt> âhigh CPU performanceâ when starting serious audio work and go back to low-power only at the end of the session."
<ailo> len-dt: I'll see about adding it as a tweak too then
<len-dt> You have to set the gov to user.
<ailo> I picture a toggle for enabling "fixed frequency when jack is running"
<ailo> Something like that
<ailo> It'll adjust other settings automatically
<ailo> in -controls
<len-dt> So that would replace or at least be instead of jackfreqd
<ailo> No, I mean, when enabling jackfreqd, from -controls
<ailo> It means we would need to include it somehow in ubuntustudio-controls
<len-dt> That only does full speed not a set speed
<ailo> Well, whatever. I'll see the manual once I have the chance
<ailo> The point is, the other settings will adjust automatically
<ailo> When toggling it
<len-dt> OK
<len-dt> There has been interest in using full speed for some graphics/video work as well
<ailo> For them, that toggle would not be interesting
<len-dt> No but some way of turning it on would be.
<ailo> They'd use 'performance', or 'fixed frequency'
<ailo> I'm adding all of it
<len-dt> There are three files in /etc/init.d that deal with cpufreq setup: ondmand, loadcpufreq and cpufrequtils
<ailo> len-dt: At least cpufrequtils depends on the package with the same name
<len-dt> The question is do we want it to run. We may need it to run and then set what we want.
<ailo> Both loadcpufreq and cpufrequtils
<ailo> We don't need it to set cpu settings
<len-dt> It loads the scalling module.
<len-dt> *scaling
<ailo> We should be able to do everything manually
<ailo> Which I prefer
<len-dt> I was goin to say we can replace it.
<ailo> We might need to add a "override cpufrequtils"
<ailo> ..toggle
<ailo> And have -controls disable it
<len-dt> ailo, Are you having more than one profile? So the user can save various profiles for different uses.
<ailo> len-dt: Haven't got that far yet
<ailo> len-dt: I'm a bit late with this. Just preparing tests for now.
<ailo> I won't be using jackfreqd for the tests, but I'm keeping it for the implementation of -controls
<Len-nb> ailo, I'm giving up with the MIDI tests for now. I need a controlled situation that shows problems. So far everything i have done shows no problems in timing beyond the limits of the MIDI stream itself.
<ailo> Yea, I will probably not touch that either for the time being
<Len-nb> I think we should make the timers audio group and give the user the ability to set the maxfreq.
<Len-nb> Maybe it makes a dif with rosegarden
<ailo> I'll add the tweak
<ailo> Len-nb: One aspect of -controls is to have users do testing themselves, and give feedback. After all, we can't test on every possible machine and device
<ailo> Is what I realized..
<Len-nb> Ya, In any case, I have at least tested for no bad effects.
<Len-nb> Everything is running happy at half speed.
<ttoine> hi
<len-dt> ttoine, haven't seen you for a bit
<ttoine> I was thinking I didn't had any news... and just realised that I may not be in the devel mailing list
<len-dt> We were talking about monitor calib
<len-dt> Colourwise
<ttoine> len-dt: yes, shoulder surgery and holidays
<len-dt> Oww
<len-dt> sounds painful
<ttoine> it was very modern surgery, so only two small points, but yes, it is painfull
<ttoine> can someone tell me how to get again de mailing list ??
<len-dt> I remember years ago, I had a pin put in my knee... the sprained toe I had at the same time hurt more.
<len-dt> There is a link on the web page... I'll find it.
<len-dt> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
<ttoine> ok, just applied
<ttoine> thanks, len
<len-dt> N P
<ttoine> It will be easier to follow and participate, I guess
<len-dt> There are some blue print things Scott says you asked for... replacing argyl for example.
<ttoine> ah yes, great. you know where I can find that on the wiki or something like that ? on it is only on the mailing list ?
<len-dt> The blue print is at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-q-misc
<len-dt> We have both argyll and gnome-colour-manager. The same thing as vanilla as far as I can tell.
<ttoine> I think it is good to be like vanilla on this point
<ttoine> because we don't have an expert on this point. and we don't need to invent the wheel again, as we say in french
<len-dt> It doesn't show up in the menu, but is supposed to start when the colour detector is plugged into the USB(?) port.
<ttoine> yes
<ttoine> argyll is used by gnome colour management gui
<len-dt> OK, hopefully early next week all the stuff we have committed will hit the ISO. so we can see it.
<ttoine> ok
<len-dt> We based our workflow on two websites for photography. I don't have the one handy but the other is http://www.rileybrandt.com/2012/07/31/linux-photo-1/
<len-dt> ttoine, I also wanted to ask about this: color - explore making a package for adobe icc
<len-dt> Are these ICCs for monitors?, printers?
<len-dt> Do you have a URL for it?
<ttoine> it could be a good thing
<ttoine> there will be mostly printer and standards icc
<ttoine> I look for the link, wait a bit
<len-dt> We already have a package of iccs included. 
<len-dt> I can wait... I leave something up on IRC almost all the time.
<ttoine> http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/iccprofiles/iccprofiles_win.html
<ttoine> there is only stuff for windows and mac
<ttoine> but it is possible to unzip it
<ttoine> it would be great to add some other stuff in the package, not only adobe icc
<ttoine> http://www.color.org/index.xalter
<ttoine> you will find all the icc profiles on this website
<ttoine> and most of the screen and laptop vendors provide icc profiles for their hardware on their support website
<ttoine> for my thinkpad, there is a icc profile available at lenovo
<len-dt> from what I have read it needs to be set up and measured about once a month.... but I would guess those profiles are still closer tahn none.
<ttoine> yes
<len-dt> We ship a package called icc-profiles-free, but there is another package called icc-profiles too.
<len-dt> Do you know if they are the same or what the difference is?
<ttoine> I can look at it
<ttoine> but currently, most of what is package (for example fogra icc profiles) are for america printing industrie
<ttoine> for Europe, it miss the "Iso coated v2" icc profiles
<ttoine> you need it in order to create cmyk pdf in Scribus for press
<len-dt> The two packages are different. The one we don't ship is smaller and it recommends the one we do.
<ttoine> ok
<ttoine> for europe, all that should be available for the printing industry is on this page
<ttoine> http://www.eci.org/en/downloads
<ttoine> there are a lot of pdf and a fex zip packages
<ttoine> look at the "ICC profiles from ECI" section
<ttoine> -fex +few
<len-dt> Ya it looks that way. 
<len-dt> Are they of a license we can package them?
<ttoine> I am looking for ;-)
<knome> i doubt.. but haven't checked really.
<len-dt> There is a disclaimer about not being responsible ... but lic stuff
<knome> default ICC profiles would be nice to have, but then again, there are printer-specific profiles too, so rather than trying to include every standard anybody could ever need, rather just make adding the profiles easy
<len-dt> It sounds like maybe what we need first is documentation on colour management in general
<len-dt> Both with and without a meter.
<ttoine> yes
<knome> first broad support then docs ;)
<ttoine> think that a lot of thing can be done with a basinc screen
<ttoine> basic
<len-dt> At least these flat screens don't change as much as crts and will stay closer longer.
<ttoine> what we miss the most imho is a way to generate cmyk pdf with cups
<ttoine> cups pdf at the moment generate only rgb pdf
<len-dt> ttoine, is it worthwhile having something like lprof?
<len-dt> Is there such a thing as a converter?
<knome> ttoine, yeah. not enough cmyk support is the thing keeping me on win+photoshop for print
<len-dt> Or is the quality any good?
<knome> i don't think professionals should rely on converters
<ttoine> we don't need lprof if we keep gnome colour gui and argyll
<len-dt> ok.
<ttoine> at the moment the only "good" way is to import files in scribus and use it to generate a quadri pdf
<ttoine> there a is an old tool too, not packaged, wich can turn quadri to rgb, or rgb to quadri, using icc profiles
<ttoine> but it is not up to date
<ttoine> len-dt, knome: http://www.blackfiveimaging.co.uk/index.php?article=02Software%2F05CMYKTool
<ttoine> I tried cmyktool and it works well with jpeg and tiff
<len-dt> I had thought I had heard there was a way to save CMYK in GIMP too, but I can't find it.
<ttoine> len-dt: with the separate+ plugin but it is not available on Linux
<knome> jpeg and tiff ain't pdf
<knome> :)
<ttoine> knome: maybe you should try cmyktool and tell us if it is good or bad ?
<ttoine> knome: yes, there is still the problem of pdf
<knome> i'll bookmark that, but i don't know when i'll have the time to check that out
<ttoine> maybe with a custom ppd file, cups-pdf could generate quadri pdf
<knome> i don't know how much cmyk jpg and tiff would help the professional without cmyk pdf though
<ttoine> len-dt: do yo want me to try to contact the eci.org staff to get licence information  ?
<len-dt> Most of this is over my head.
<len-dt> Sure, but the reality is that someone would have to package and maintain it.
<knome> maybe add to the same package that has the US standards, and ask its maintainer to maintain those too
<knome> if it looks like it's too much work or work nobody wants to take care of, just leave it
<len-dt> And we are a small group. Some one has offered to package gimp-paint-studio for ubuntu repos, but I think at this point it may not make 12.10.
<knome> just make adding profiles trivial
<knome> or write a good tutorial
<len-dt> That was why I said docs...
<ttoine> knome: sometimes you just need one or two profiles.
<knome> pro's probably need to add custom profiles anyway
<ttoine> so providing links could be a good start
<knome> yes, that's a start
<ttoine> and the different places where to put the files
<knome> yes
<knome> that would be next to extremely helpful
<ttoine> ~/.color/icc
<ttoine> for gnome colour management
<ttoine> but for scribus, etc... it has to be done with sudo
<knome> other way to get moving is to make apps use standard places for profiles
<ttoine> knome: the gnome colour management system is very young and some apps are still looking for xicc, or even older places
<knome> .config/icc or sth like that would't sound bad
<ttoine> .colour/icc
<len-dt> how do I start gnome color manager?
<ttoine> system preferences
<knome> ttoine, that works for me too, as long as every app uses it ;)
<ttoine> then click on the beautiful colour icon
<ttoine> knome: ok ;-)
<knome> the situation probably isn't better on windows actually
<knome> doesn't mean we can't/couldn't do it better
<ttoine> /usr/share/colour/icc
<knome> mm
<ttoine> knome: since windows 7, it seems to be well managed at kernell level
<len-dt> ttoine, that doesn't get it for me
<knome> ttoine, wouldn't know about that
<ttoine> and of course it has always been there in Macos X
<ttoine> for it the macos X DE is writen in visual postscript or something like that
<ttoine> len-dt ?
<len-dt> I can't find a way to start the color manager on US 12.04
<ttoine> http://wiki.scribus.net/canvas/Getting_and_installing_ICC_profiles
<ttoine> len-dt: vanilla ubuntu ? xubuntu ?
<len-dt> They all start with GCM
<len-dt> ubuntustudio.
<len-dt> Obviously I need to add them to the menu.
<ttoine> len-dt: can you launch gnome-control-center ?
<ttoine> I am mostly on vanilla ubuntu
<len-dt> No, we have the xfce one.
<len-dt> I can get things from CLI and the *.desktop files are there... Not sure why they don't show in our menus... something to check.
<ttoine> ok
<len-dt> So we have had the color manager, but no menu item...
<ttoine> in vanilla, it is integrated to the gnome-control-center... I can't even get the command name with Unity...
<ttoine> wow, neat 1:30 am...
<ttoine> see you later
<len-dt> One of them is just a MIME box... Bye
<knome> :)
<knome> night ttoine 
<len-dt> knome, the desktop files are all "nodisplay"
<knome> len-dt, re: what? :)
<len-dt> I guess they are meant to be run from right clicks and the settings manager
<knome> probably
<knome> we're adding a few more launchers to xfce settings manager this cycle
<knome> maybe you could benefit from that too
<knome> :)
<len-dt> I will probably have to make a ubuntustudio desktop file.
<len-dt> I saw the new launchers
<knome> Unit193 is working on it from our side
<len-dt> now in catagories
<knome> so if you want to talk with him...
<len-dt> It is not an xfce4 program though...
<knome> that doesn't matter
<knome> you can add a launcher to any command in xfce settings manager
<len-dt> OK, on xubunt-devel
<knome> yup, there
<TheDrums> There are catagories, but limited to 4 preset ones, not quite sure how exactly those work as I haven't seen them yet.
<knome> or here as TheDrums :P
<TheDrums> Barely.
<knome> meh with several nicks.
<len-dt> Is the ability to add applications new to xfce4.10?
<len-dt> Right clicking on an ICC file should open the importer.
<knome> len-dt, i don't think so (4.10)
<len-dt> Ok
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-17
<len-dt> knome, Bug #1037849  for no starting point for color manager
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1037849 in ubuntustudio-default-settings (Ubuntu) "gnome-color-manager has nowhere to start from" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1037849
<smartboyhw> Hi!
 * smartboyhw waves at stochastic
<ttoine> hi
 * smartboyhw waves at ttoine
<ailo> len-dt: Kernels are built https://gitorious.org/ubuntustudio-testing/pages/Kernel
 * smartboyhw waves at ailo
<ailo> For i386 (forgot to mention that)
<ailo> smartboyhw: Hi
<knome> hey smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> How about amd64!?
<ailo> len-dt: If you like, you can get the source for the tests. There's a script that let's you install all the kernels in 'src/install-kernels'. The git tree is git://gitorious.org/ubuntustudio-testing/ubuntustudio-testing.git
<smartboyhw> Now I'm not happy about no kernels for amd64
<smartboyhw> Hi knome_
<ailo> smartboyhw: The tests aren't ready yet. I'll let you know when they are, and give you instructions on how to perform them. Until then, it is not my concern whether you are happy or not about my kernel builds.
<smartboyhw> ...Sorry
<smartboyhw> Notify me when it does
 * smartboyhw waves at scott-work
<scott-work> hi smartboyhw 
<smartboyhw> A kidding thing: Anyone want to start a Ubuntu Studio blog?
<knome> smartboyhw, there is one at ubuntustudio.org ;)
<smartboyhw> !
<smartboyhw> knome: A blog has more updates, I think
<knome> sure. but technically, the US website has blog-type mechanics enabled; you just need to start using them
<smartboyhw> Yeah, I need to write a post to get more testers in, I think
<scott-work> smartboyhw: how is the documentation going?
<knome> sounds like the xubuntu testing situation :D
<knome> scott-work, http://dagobah.princessleia.com/Xubuntu/12.10 for xubuntu docs ;)
<smartboyhw> scott-work: 50%.
<smartboyhw> Wow! That's serious, knome
<scott-work> smartboyhw: and knome has a good point, we have the functionality in the website for a blog, we just haven't used it currently, i don't expect that pushing anything we do to a dedicated blog will improve the frequency necessarily
<smartboyhw> !
<scott-work> smartboyhw: yeah, knome is trying to do a complete offline rewrite for inclusion with the install (if i'm not mistaken)
<smartboyhw> Wow!
<knome> that's right. that's one of our main goals for this cycle
<smartboyhw> Hey, knome, you're back!
<knome> yeah, at least for a while; didn't catch my wife on the phone, so might need to run in a few
<smartboyhw> !
<knome> what's with the exclamation marks? :)
<smartboyhw> ! = surprised:)
<knome> surprised that i have a wife or that she didn't answer me? ;)
<smartboyhw> First one: No. Second one: Yes!
<knome> well, she's working for 12h+ today, so she might be doing something right now..
<smartboyhw> 12h+! Now that's busy.
<knome> yeah, and she voluntarily took the longer shift...
<smartboyhw> knome: That doesn't happen in my region
<knome> :)
<smartboyhw> knome: Anyone ever used ubuntustudio as his nick?
<knome> probably not, and don't know why one would want to do that
<smartboyhw> Hmm, let me try that:)
<smartboyhw> Bye!
<smartboyhw> cya knome and scott-work
<scott-work> astraljava: i have a reason for the cd image email failure on the mailing list - "Too many recipients to the message"
<scott-work> however, i will not have time for several hours to investigate a mailing list setting to bypass this
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-18
<len-dt> astraljava, there seem to be two ISOs... the one listed on the qa page is not the newest one.
<len-dt> The qa page lists aug17 but there is a aug18 ISO in daily.
<len-dt> Does it matter which we test?
<astraljava> len-dt: You should update the page, for me it says the image is from today, the 18th.
<astraljava> Xubuntu is a more difficult one, there seem to be several builds from yesterday only.
<len-dt> I had to go back a few pages astraljava Thanks. I happen to have dl todays, so it's all good.
<astraljava> len-dt: Right, nice, thanks! I'll go sleep soon, but I'll try to spend more time on this tomorrow. Release is nearing. :)
<len-dt> astraljava, i386 done for 12.04.1
<ailo> len-dt: Been working on the testing suite today. I'm including multiple tests into one. jack_test amongst others (it stresses the system, but I don't really know if it's actually useful for us)
<ailo> The test I'm scripting myself is going to be some kind of a common desktop usage sitation. Start jack, start an application, run it. Count xruns
<ailo> Well, I really only have the two right now
<ailo> Was going to look at other ones
<ailo> Like kernel tests
<ailo> don't have the time to analyze what each test is good for, so I though I'd just include a bunch. And then we do tests, gather data, and analyze it in good time
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-08-19
<ailo> I got my toe dipped in jack programming today. Created a jack transport start|stop cli app. Just a couple of lines in python
<smartboyhw> Hi!
<astraljava> len-dt: Good news, thanks!
<smartboyhw> astraljava: What good news?
<smartboyhw> On the news of len-dt, another news: 64-bit testing completed by me now
<astraljava> Thanks. I'm still not sure whether there'll be new images, so please keep your eyes on the tracker, if you have time still before the release.
<astraljava> Huge thanks for all testers!
<astraljava> I don't expect any big issues, as our unique parts haven't changed much, this refresh is mostly foundations-related. But have you noticed any peculiarities, len-dt or smartboyhw? I'm not talking bug-worthy (as I expect those having been filed), but anything out of the ordinary?
<smartboyhw> astraljava: NO!
<smartboyhw> BTW, thanks scott-work and astraljava and everybody for making such a nice OS
<smartboyhw> Now I'm waiting for ailo to finish the 64-bit lowlatency kernel to test...:)
<astraljava> ailo isn't making the kernel (yet), but writing testcases for it. I need to bug the kernel team tomorrow so that we'd get an updated -lowlatency for 12.04.1, though.
<smartboyhw> ailo jst got len-dt a kernel to test for 32-bit, mate
<astraljava> Which would, of course, require new tests for the image, if it happens. I'll keep this channel posted, though.
<smartboyhw> astraljava: I mean this
<smartboyhw> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/precise/daily-live/20120817.3/precise-desktop-amd64.iso
<smartboyhw> Oh, sorry, not thed link
<smartboyhw> [14:28] <ailo> len-dt: Kernels are built https://gitorious.org/ubuntustudio-testing/pages/Kernel
<smartboyhw> On 17th August, that is
<astraljava> smartboyhw: Right. Well, we aren't hosting our official kernels on gitorious, that's just unofficial testing. If you look into the kernel version on quantal, you'll notice that we're still in the 3.5.0 tree.
<smartboyhw> Oh, that's why
<stochastic> That's it I'm goin' camping. :)
<knome> have fun stochastic 
<smartboyhw> stochastic: Bye and have some fun!
<smartboyhw> ailo: Are you here? I want to know the progress of the amd64 kernel:)
<ailo> smartboyhw: I told you before, I'll let you know when the tests are finished. Me and Len have been working on the ground work for them. That is why I have only been notifying Len so far
<smartboyhw> Oh, that's why.....
<smartboyhw> Thanks
<smartboyhw> ailo: Been wondering about Bug 1021264
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1021264 in Ubuntu Studio "forward bugs to Ubuntu Studio Bugs Team" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1021264
<smartboyhw> You have already succeeded in doing so, why don't you change the Importance to "Fix Released"?
<ailo> smartboyhw: Not fixed
<smartboyhw> ailo: Why?
<ailo> I need to do some research on that. But it's not a priority at the moment. We have the bug team, and a new mail list for bugs. The forwarding was a bit difficult to set up.
<smartboyhw> Oh, that's why, the forwarding
<smartboyhw> BTW, on Bug 152853
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 152853 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] image2dv" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/152853
<smartboyhw> I packaged it today, but I'll need a MOTU to do so, but actually has it been fixed?
<smartboyhw> I mean I'll need a MOTU to actually merge the branches
<ailo> smartboyhw: If you have packaged it, the best way is to get it into Debian
<smartboyhw> ailo: I need to wait for a MOTU to approve the packaging
<ailo> subscribe to the Debian Mentors list, and tell them you want to upload a package
<smartboyhw> Debian Mentors List? What's that?
<ailo> smartboyhw: It's better you go through Debian. 
<ailo> That way, it will end up in all Debian based distros, including Ubuntu
<smartboyhw> OK
<ailo> Only upload to Ubuntu, if for some reason, it is Ubuntu specific
<ailo> Like, ubuntustudio-controls
<smartboyhw> oh
<ailo> smartboyhw: The Debian Mentor mail list is a place where Debian uploaders and developers help new participants
<ailo> You just say you want to upload a package, and you are seeking a sponsor
<smartboyhw> OK
<smartboyhw> Ok, subscribing now
<len-dt> astraljava, The only differences I have noticed have been good. For example I have not seen any scrollbars on our install slideshow for a while now.
<len-dt> ailo, to continue on the comment I left in the other channel.
<len-dt> ailo, in your controls app, it may be a good idea to have a way for checking user is in audio group and adding iff needed
<ailo> len-dt: That is the main feature I'm adding. realtime privilege administration
<len-dt> Good
<ailo> len-dt: And, my comment was more about the task installs for ubuntu studio
<ailo> That even if you install the ubuntu studio desktop task, you might not get those settings correct
<ailo> If I remember correctly, this is still the case
<len-dt> Ya, there are a number of people who start with vanilla or kubuntu and use our metas.
<ailo> I've noticed over the years..
<len-dt> permissions is the biggest issue with doing that right now
<ailo> One of the metas could have a post install script to handle that, and ask the user if to be included into the group
<ailo> Just like the jackd install
<len-dt> Yes like -settings or maybe a new -audio-settings
<len-dt> or maybe the audio meta
<ailo> I'd vote settings
<len-dt> Though that would be harder because the audio meta is based solely on seeds right now.
<ailo> I think settings should have everything that includes any kind of system configuration
<len-dt> ailo, I am wondering if someone installing mettas over vanilla would want our -default-settings
<len-dt> They are xfce dependant
<ailo> I could imagine someone only wanting realtime privilege, and one or two apps
<ailo> I would assume that all happens in settings. On the other hand, I'd assume installing jackd would be enough to get started :(
<ailo> And if realtime privilege is done in settings, should audio depend on it?
<ailo> Or should be we break settings into workflows?
<ailo> As you said before
<ailo> Then ubuntustudio-audio would depend on ubuntustudio-audio-settings
<len-dt> Maybe the audio meta should be separated from seeds and have its own package so we could include audio settings or maybe an audio-setting package that the audio meta includes
<micahg> no, it makes most sense as a seed, I see no issue with something like ubuntustudio-audio-settings being built out of the -default package for a case like this
<len-dt> micahg, I think we both just came to that conclusion :)
<len-dt> Anything else is too much work to maintain
<micahg> right
<len-dt> micahg, if we add setting the user to audio group in a settings package then we could remove the preseed line that does that, right?
<micahg> not sure about that
<len-dt> I guess my question should really be would it hurt to add the user to the audio group twice.
<ailo> len-dt: Nope. But the install script could be made smart.
<len-dt> ailo, the preseed would have to be smart too.
<ailo> len-dt: I think we need to separate those, unless you can add ubiquity choices as well. Same as for jackd
<len-dt> Ya
<len-dt> if we set group in settings it would be best to remove the preseed.
<ailo> Only if we can make choices during ubuntustudio install
<len-dt> It could be a choice like jack does and preseed the choice like we do with jack
<ailo> Aha, like so
<ailo> Right
<len-dt> The if we ever get a ubiquity module the coices could be made there.
<len-dt> *Then
<ailo> len-dt: Did you have a loot at the kernels I built? There's not that many versions, and not a great deal of difference between them
<ailo> There's the one with the ticking timer
<len-dt> TBH no I haven't. I have been busy with other things so far.
<len-dt> I will have other family related things to do this next few weeks too.
<ailo> len-dt: Well, the ticking timer might be interesting as far as midi goes
<len-dt> For midi I still need to find a situation that causes problems...
<ailo> len-dt: I think the ticking timer might make things worse
<len-dt> So far all of my tests have shown no changes with any setting.
<ailo> I'm getting more busy now as well. Starting tomorrow
<ailo> Things have a tendency to just drag on forever. I keep putting too much time on the wrong details
<len-dt> I think we should but swappiness and hrt/rtc in audio group in defualt settings at least for this cycle. The rest we have yet to prove they do anything (good)
<ailo> len-dt: My tests are meant to do that, however, have you found any proof of hrt/rtc making any improvement yet?
<len-dt> None, but I have not played with rosegarden at all. It is just that as we have added them to the kernel we should finish the job.
<len-dt> We can't test everything.
<ailo> Shouldn't be any different on Rosegarden. Still alsa midi
<ailo> The purpose of the tests I'm making is to gather data from several machines, to see the actual impact of tweaks
<len-dt> I don't know, it is just that these recommendations have come from the rosegarden forums, so I would think that is where they solved problems.
<ailo> alsa midi is a bit difficult to automate though, but we should still probably use the same test for it
<len-dt> midish might make it easier.
<len-dt> It can set up connections and filtering as well as playback/record midi streams
<len-dt> All CLI driven.
<ailo> I'm creating a standard use case using at least a DAW. Perhaps, qjackctl + hydrogen
<len-dt> Anyway, I should go...
<ailo> Controlling transport from the script
<ailo> len-dt: See you
<ailo> That should have been qtractor + hydrogen..
<ailo> len-dt: Just recorded some audio from hexter to qtractor,  using qtractor to send midi to hexter. It's not in sync.
<ailo> I'm on Debian now. Need to check my settings too
<ailo> len-dt: Actually, I found that monitoring qtractor controlled Hexter, and Hydrogen, both started with jack transport are not in sync at all
<ailo> But, after recording hydrogen to qtractor, the recording itself was a bit better synced
<ailo> Still, not nearly perfect
<ailo> The midi seems to be a few notches ahead of audio
<len-dt> ailo, it should be
<ailo> It's just strange that what I hear is not what is
<len-dt> What setting are you using for -p on jack?
<ailo> The latency is pretty large right now
<ailo> The audio from hydrogen is taking less time to arrive to my speakers, than to qtractor
<ailo> Also, the recorded material in qtractor is a few notches too early
<ailo> I'm missing maybe 10-20 ms at the beginning
<len-dt> midi or audio?
<ailo> audio
<ailo> Also, not in sync
<ailo> The beats are a bit off
<ailo> I'm not really doing any testing now
<ailo> Was just going to record some audio to use for the test
<ailo> len-dt: Hang on. I'm making a screen shot
<ailo> len-dt: http://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=4721
<ailo> len-dt: The bottow two channels have the same exact drum loop, but those are two separate bars of it
<ailo> I just copied and pasted one under the other
<ailo> You can clearly see they are out of sync, not only with qtractor, but with themselves
<ailo> I'm using the hpet and rtc improvements
<ailo> -p 1024, I think
<len-dt> I did not test midi to audio timing. My question is this a qtractor problem?
<ailo> One could try using different settings too. qtractor has settable midi timer
<len-dt> We probably need to have signal flow diagram for both midi and audio.
<ailo> Could be the situation changes dramatically if not using jack transport. There's a lot of variables
<ailo> Coming to think of it, these are exactly the type of things we should get right, and document.
<ailo> But, I do think jack midi would make things easier here
<ailo> len-dt: Measuring midi agains midi doesn't show you if the midi clock has jitters
<ailo> Since everything is following the same clock
<ailo> Previously, when I explained the sync problem and how it was apparent to me, was when recording audio
<ailo> I haven't ever tried recording midi
<ailo> jack midi is solid in this sense
<ailo> I used ardour3 to control my external synth and recorded from it
<ailo> I think with all the problems that comes with alsa midi, it would just make things easier if we just replaced everything with jack midi
<ailo> not "we", literally, of course
<ailo> heh, funny. I set qjackctl to use "seq" midi driver, and I get a ticking sound from my speakers
<ailo> Hmm, it's from PA
<ailo> Seems like my internal card has disappeared too. Something with this MB
<ailo> well..
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-12
<cub> Hi xequence how's the debconf?
<xequence> cub: Very nice
<cub> Are you staying the whole week?
<xequence> cub: You said something about the menu after I left last time
<xequence> Editing the menu manually with gui tools wont work with the custom menu
<xequence> or, it didnt before anyway
<cub> haha yes, there was an app to change the menus
<xequence> There are a few
<cub> hmm I did some tests on my 13.04 and added a "Audio Programming" item with an app in it
<xequence> alacarte is the one commonly used on gnome
<xequence> Adding your own stuff, yes, but how about the existing custom menu entries?
<cub> I don't remember the menu exactly but settings - main menu something
<xequence> Adding stuff to those
<cub> I didn't test but they were there so I suppose I would be able to hide things or add new items
<cub> could do a test during lunch time
<cub> Another thing, if you have the time. You mentioned earlier that the low-latency kernel might use a bit more resources than the general, so using more battery on a laptop
<cub> How much difference do you think it is?
<cub> I'm running US on my eee pc now and it has low battery time as it is. I won't do any audio work on it so I was thinking if I would get a few minutes more if running a general kernel
<xequence> cub: Ive never measured, but having been running lowlatency on this machine for many hours, I dont think its a huge difference, if there is one
<cub> Ok, I won't bother then.
<xequence> the biggest difference between the two is probably throughput. -lowlatency has 10% less throughput, from what Ive understood
<xequence> This is mostly bad for servers
<cub> yeah not a problem for my browsing and libre office work. :P
<xequence> -lowlateny might be a good desktop kernel
<cub> I'm quite swamped at home for a couple of weeks, but I'm trying to take a look at that Accessability for visually impaired from the devel-maillist
<cub> Josh, the OP, seems to have been quite active on the Vinux support groups so he might have some good input
<cub> http://vinuxproject.org/ , "Vinux is a Ubuntu derived distribution optimised for the needs of blind and partially sighted users."
<cub> from what I've seen most applications are available in the repos. The main point I think is to include Orca and maybe Brltty in the DVD so it can be started in Live mode and work during the installation process.
<xequence> cub: I'd really prefer to stay out of that completely. Seems like there are people who know their stuff, and if someone just proposes some changes, I can help make them.
<xequence> I'm currently working on a couple of debian packages
<xequence> going to try get ardour3 uploaded soon
<cub> Why not? Standard Ubuntu include Orca on installation
<xequence> Why not, what?
<cub> cub: I'd really prefer to stay out of that completely.
<cub> Why should we stay out of accessibility?
<xequence> Me, personally
<cub> ah
<xequence> I have enough to do as it is
<xequence> And I don't know anything about that stuff either
<xequence> so, if someone comes up with a good list of changes we could make, I'll happily make them
<cub> absolutely, I was thinking I would look into how others do it, what we would need to include in the DVD. But then someone would have to do the magic to get it in there.
<cub> As I have worked with visually impaired tools before I jumped into it.
<xequence> might be as easy as just adding a couple of packages to our seeds
<cub> I think so.
<cub> I used to work as a sound tech and then later IT tech at "Synskadades RiksfÃ¶rbund" here in Stockholm
<xequence> You should have the best experience in that then
<xequence> Oh, I took a picture of myself with the t-shirt today
<xequence> going to send it to the list
<cub> It was some time ago, but yeah. I hope to get good feedback from Josh who can do the "real" testing
<cub> nice. I'm waiting for my package to arrive.
<smartboyhw> Hello xequence 
<DarkEra> heya smartboyhw and the others
<smartboyhw> Hey DarkEra haven't seen you for a while:)
<DarkEra> that's true, been busy renovating the house, family came over for a visit and i'm still on my netbook. I think i'll be able to get a new machine somewhere in the first quarter of 2014
<smartboyhw> DarkEra, oh
<xequence> Hey everyone
<DarkEra> hi xequence 
<xequence> Just posted a pic of me wearing the t-shirt
<smartboyhw> xequence, where?
<xequence> hoping it doesnt get blocked
<xequence> on our devel mail list
<smartboyhw> *blink*
<smartboyhw> xequence, haven't received it yet
<xequence> It requires approval
<smartboyhw> xequence, wait, why do YOU need approval?
<xequence> because of the jpg file
<smartboyhw> Hmm...
<smartboyhw> xequence, just can't you approve yourself?
<xequence> Just about to
<smartboyhw> xequence, LO
<smartboyhw> *LOL
 * smartboyhw proposes to set that image as the default wallpaper for Ubuntu Studio 13.10.
<DarkEra> nice :)
<smartboyhw> xequence, real nice
<smartboyhw> xequence, Any changes of products should go through one or more of the leading
<smartboyhw> members. Myself and madeinkobaia in particular, before released.
<smartboyhw> It's important for me that we maintain a nice quality and well designed
<smartboyhw> products.
<smartboyhw> I think I would rather write a proposal on that:P
<xequence> There are currently only three people involved in the webshop
<xequence> me, madeinkobaia and ttoine - who runs it
<smartboyhw> xequence, yep:)
<xequence> Pretty much everything needs to go through me, but if there is a good routine in place, I can just trust the people who are working on it
<smartboyhw> I think though, we should be able to get it out soon
<smartboyhw> ttoine, do respond to the mail:)
<smartboyhw> I do have the question in mind of who gets the money of the profits generated by the product sales
<smartboyhw> I really don't know
<smartboyhw> xequence, are you in your home while taking the photo?
<xequence> my sisters place here in Switzerland
<xequence> smartboyhw: We are on top of the problems surrounding the webshop. If you have questions aside from those presented in my email, please answer it
<xequence> smartboyhw: Otherwise, as I've suggested to you many times. Find something to work on, and do your best to do that work well
<smartboyhw> xequence, ?
<xequence> smartboyhw: you are a member of many teams, but you spend most of the time jumping into all sorts of discussions
<xequence> you are 14 years old, right?
<xequence> it would be good if you take some time to think about the difference in age and experience you have
<smartboyhw> xequence, 15 now, actually
<xequence> and act according to your age a bit more
<xequence> if you want to help, please do
<xequence> but, find something to work on
<smartboyhw> xequence, um, what are YOU expecting as to "act according to my age"ï¼
<smartboyhw> From my parent's perspective, it's study... study... study...
<xequence> for one thing, dont start arguing with people here for no reason
<smartboyhw> xequence, I don't start arguing here with no reason
<xequence> Negating foolishly is one type of arguing
<xequence> What we do here is try to improve multimedia for Debian/UBuntu
<xequence> It is good to keep that in mind in every situation and try not to spend energy on unimportant details
<cub> smartboyhw, I asked ttoine about the prices and possible earnings from the shop. There won't be any earnings, which was also part of the licencing IIRC
<cub> xequence, the Settings -> Main Menu managed to change in the custom menus as well, just tested on my 13.04.
<xequence> cub: Cool. I assume thats the original menu?
<xequence> meaning, you didnt add what Len has been working on during saucy
<cub> No this is my test VM for 13.04. Just ordinary apt-get updates done on it
<smartboyhw> xequence, OK so if you want me to find something to work on, give me a list at least...
<smartboyhw> cub, great:)
<cub> Since I run a Mac at work I installed a VM to be able to check ubuntuforms stuff while at work. Since that's my best contributions so far . :P
<xequence> smartboyhw: linux-rt, testing documentation, developing ubuntustudio-controls, look at the packages we have in the repo and clean out those we dont use (ubuntustudio-sounds)
<smartboyhw> xequence, actually, I do want to do linux-rt:)
<smartboyhw> Maybe I should play with it
<xequence> I cant promise you will be the one who uploads it, but if you do the work, I'll make sure to give you the credit for it
<smartboyhw> xequence, here's the problem: I do remember compiling the 3.10 -rt patch failed for me;P
<xequence> smartboyhw: you'll need to do it the ubuntu way
<xequence> using dpkg tools
<smartboyhw> xequence, any docs?
<xequence> smartboyhw: use linux-lowlatency as an example. Create a debian.rt flavor
<smartboyhw> xequence, sure, where's your saucy linux-lowlatency git code?
 * smartboyhw thinks that is more convenient 
<xequence> I dont have it myself yet
<smartboyhw> xequence, uh oh, apw doesn't have the saucy code online
<smartboyhw> :(
<xequence> hmm, doesn't seem like apw has it up either
<smartboyhw> Damn:P
<xequence> you can get the source with apt-get or pull-lp-source though
<smartboyhw> xequence, yeah
<xequence> you can then make it a git repo if you want
 * smartboyhw goes ask in #ubuntu-kernel to get apw make a git repo for -lowlatency
<xequence> smartboyhw: no
<smartboyhw> xequence, oh?
<smartboyhw> saucy I mean...
<xequence> smartboyhw: I'll be taking over the development repo soon enough
<smartboyhw> xequence, OK, /me parts #ubuntu-kernel
<xequence> Making a git repo is good if you want to keep track of your commits
 * smartboyhw likes vcs :)
<smartboyhw> Uh, but cloning the vanilla Ubuntu kernel git code takes a lot of time...
<smartboyhw> xequence, saucy will probably include the 3.11 kernel, so we will only be shipping 3.10 if we want -rt...
<smartboyhw> Fortunately, that will not happen for 14.04 LTS:P
<xequence> I was thinking we add the rt kernel for 14.04, so no hurry
<xequence> but its good if we can build it soon
<smartboyhw> xequence, sure thing:)
<ttoine> cub, smartboyhw I confirm: no benefit at all with the current licence.
<smartboyhw> ttoine, yeah....
<ttoine> zequence, when will we speak about the shop ?
<smartboyhw> ttoine, please ping xequence now:)
<ttoine> who is xequence ?
<smartboyhw> xequence, = zequence 
<smartboyhw> In debconf
<xequence> ttoine: I'm not at home right now, an cant login to my server at home
<ttoine> definitive ?
<xequence> ttoine: I wrote an email on the list. Did you read it?
<ttoine> xequence, ok.
<ttoine> no, I didn't see this email. but I was thinking more about anouncement on the blog and social networks
<ttoine> and a link on our website menu
<xequence> ttoine: Yes, but I think there are a few details Id like to go through first
<ttoine> yes ?
<xequence> Basically, as I wrote in the email, I would like it if you could sum up the legal details, so I can use that as reference
<xequence> and, I'd like to look at what more we can do for the webshop. To design it
<xequence> We should settle for something, and the run with it
<xequence> at least until 14.04
<xequence> and changes for products should always go trough me and madeinkobaia. 
<xequence> before making them available, that is
<ttoine> to design it ?? we can't design a lot of stuff in spreadshirt...
<xequence> Well, maybe I should create my own account there, so I can see how it works
<ttoine> xequence, I won't create new available stuff, but I will continue to play with spreadshirt and see how we can create more stuff
<ttoine> the next step is to add vectorial stuff for embrodery, I am on the way for that (baseball cap, polo, etc...)
<ttoine> xequence, why wait until 14.04 ???
<xequence> I meant about the look of the webshop
<ttoine> xequence, there is 5 themes
<xequence> and some art will only be available after 14.04
<xequence> 5 themes, nothing more?
<ttoine> the other way is to insert it to our website through iframe code
<cub> "you can get any colour you like, as long as it's black."
<ttoine> xequence, something like that. Not a lot of option. Otherwise we have to pay 60 â¬ per year to become a premium partner
<ttoine> cub, for shirt
<ttoine> not for the shop
<xequence> ttoine: I see.
<xequence> ttoine: Could you send me the iframe code by email? I'll try playing with that while making the page for the webshop.
<ttoine> xequence, cub http://i.imgur.com/BIwodSi.png
<cub> xequence, that reminds me, have you heard anything from nick on the progress with the wordpress stuff?
<ttoine> here is the look and feel options
<xequence> cub: No. He kind of disappeared
<cub> Oh ttoine there seems to be baby clothes in the shop? My daughter wants one, I'm sure. :D
<ttoine> you select a theme, and then you can change some stuff
<ttoine> xequence, So at the moment, the work I did is useless
<cub> mhm they would want to keep some features and design for the premium partners.
<ttoine> the same for the work of madeinkobia
<ttoine> cub, yes
<xequence> ttoine: What do you mean by useless?
<ttoine> if it is confidential for 9 monthes...
<ttoine> it means that for 14.04 you may want to produce new artwork and stuff
<ttoine> I think we should launch the shop now
<ttoine> and get feedback
<xequence> ttoine: For 14.04, we will have new artork that is specific to that release. Doesn't mean we will be cancelling what we did now
<xequence> ttoine: the time it takes is not up to me
<xequence> it takes the time it takes
<xequence> the important thing is that the work is good
<xequence> we are all busy
<xequence> no reason to be in a hurry
<ttoine> but you think the work is not good enough at the moment ?
<xequence> it takes you many months to get something done, then you expect everyone else should be lightning fast
<cub> Aren't you kind of in agreement? Launch a shop now with the designs that is in there. Then a overhaul in time for 14.04?
<xequence> please
<xequence> lets just take the time we need
<ttoine> xequence, what does it miss ? I can't understand why we need more time ?
<ttoine> it is online, we have nice stuff available
<xequence> ttoine: So, I should just post a link at our website and we are all done?
<xequence> ttoine: did you read my email yet?
<xequence> ttoine: Lets just work together, ok?
<xequence> preparing the art for the t-shirts was not easy
<xequence> some things take time
<xequence> we waited for you for two months
<xequence> but, theres no hurry after all
<cub> xequence, about the accessibility things, I suppose I need to have something done before the 22nd of Aug, feature freeze?
<xequence> cub: Yes. That's really the date when all our changes should be done. After that, we only fix bugs, if any are found
<xequence> I can't get the code to ubuntustudio-controls
<ttoine> xequence, watch your mails
<xequence> If anyone wants to try, its: bzr branch lp:ubuntustudio-controls
<smartboyhw> xequence, why you can't get?
<ttoine> xequence, actually, If I would have the artwork before summer, I could have open the shop earlier. in June and July, I had no time.
<xequence> ttoine: I'm not a magician, neither is madeinkoabia
<smartboyhw> xequence, I can get the code here I think...
<xequence> ttoine: We just have to work with what we have
<ttoine> xequence, me too
<ttoine> I know that
<xequence> ttoine: Thanks for the email. Very informative
<ttoine> xequence, all that is in the email was already discussed on this channel, it is just a summary ;-)
<xequence> ttoine: Its better you sum it up, who have the details. I would never have remembered that your name was involved, for instance
<ttoine> xequence, it is just that I am involved in Ubuntu Studio for a long time now. And sometime it is frustrating to see how long it takes to get things done...
<ttoine> they just need a legal contact
<smartboyhw> That's because we are a small team I think, and we all have our lifes *sigh*
<xequence> smartboyhw: YOu had no problems getting the source?
<ttoine> by the way, it means that if we do something bad with the licence, I am the legal contact, so please, don't play ;-)
<smartboyhw> xequence, well at least gitting the source isn't a good idea;P I ran apt-get source instead
<xequence> I need to be able to upload to the branch as well
<xequence> seems like there's a LP bug
<smartboyhw> xequence, or you mean ubuntustudio-controls?
<smartboyhw> I thought xequence is talking about linux:P
 * cub thinks the new theme on the spreadshirt site looks better.
<smartboyhw> xequence, hmm I can't branch it
<smartboyhw> It seems stuck in the midle
<smartboyhw> *middle
<xequence> yes
<xequence> Ill file a bug
<xequence> Ã¼0p9o7gz65teqayqawertzpÃ¼$
<smartboyhw> xequence, !?
<xequence> just cleaning my keyboard :D
<smartboyhw> xequence, LOl
<knome> that looked like a secure password though
<smartboyhw> knome, +1 
<DarkEra> lol, yeah it did
<ttoine> knome, +1
<knome> wonder if pwgen could produce characters with accents
<xequence> knome: You mean like, with a French accent (jk)?
<knome> xequence, yes ;)
<smartboyhw> good jk
<xequence> Finnish accent is like a bad speech synthesizer that speaks all the letters as they are
<xequence> so, basically, accentless
<knome> hehe
<xequence> Found a nice example of an indicator app that also works for gnome (gir)
<xequence> going to try to hack something up before feature freeze, for ubuntustudio-controls
<xequence> smartboyhw: would you mind confirming the bug LP: #1211317
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1211317 in Launchpad itself "lp:ubuntustudio-controls may be corrupt" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1211317
 * smartboyhw confirms
<xequence> smartboyhw: Thanks
<cub> Hmm does Ubuntu Studio run on Apple macbooks?
<smartboyhw> cub, no.
<xequence> smartboyhw: Why do you say that?
<smartboyhw> xequence, maybe yes...
<smartboyhw> But we don't provide images do we?
<xequence> cub: It's been a while since I tried it. Have never installed, but live images used to work in the past without problems
<xequence> smartboyhw: We don't provice Mac specific images no.
<smartboyhw> You can install through pat-get
<smartboyhw> *apt-get
<smartboyhw> But no images:P
<cub> I have to try that. I stumbled across a questions about it on askubuntu and got curious. A collegue is running Fedora on his Macbook here.
<xequence> cub: I installed debian on a ibook without problems. But that's powerpc
<cub> sure I installed Debian recently on my ancient iMac
<xequence> Maybe there's something specific about the booting?
<cub> but it would be cool to dual boot US at work and shut down the "Fedora rules" arguments at work. ;)
<xequence> EFI instead of BIOS
<cub> I'll bring a USB stick tomorrow.
<xequence> cub: Try installing onto usb stick first
<xequence> that way you wont mess anything up
<xequence> or a separate usb drive
<cub> yeah, that's how he's running Fedora at the moment.
<cub> but they recommend usb3
<xequence> but, make sure to install GRUB onto the right harddrive
<xequence> usb3 is much faster of course
<cub> my macbook is too old for that.
<xequence> its just loading time that is slower
<xequence> apps are just as fast otherwise
<xequence> applications are loaded into RAM, and as long as you arent writing to disk at 100% capacity, its just RAM and CPU working while you use the app
<xequence> HCS+ is not writable to my knowledge
<xequence> only readable
<xequence> the MAC file system with journaling enabled
<cub> Mostly web based systems here so
<xequence> There's a bunch of developers her gathered around a round table, standing. Writing git stuff on a big card board
<xequence> They've been at it for about two hours now
<cub> :d
<xequence> I got the indicator working with our logo and everything. Working in Gnome3. Nothing more then a menu of starters for now, but that will have to do, if I dont have time for anything else
<xequence> should work on all DEs
<xequence> Poettering is having a talk about systemd in 20 minutes
<xequence> that should be fun
<cub> define fun? ;)
<cub> Have you got a screenshot of the indicator?
<xequence> cub: It'll be fun if opinions are apart, which they should be
<xequence> well, seem to be anyway
<xequence> !paste
<ubottu> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<xequence> http://imagebin.org/267278
<cub> ooh nice
<xequence> need to save batteries. bbl
<xequence> OvenWerks: I was just trying ubuntustudio-installer. I'm on precise, so not the best way to test, but - starting with the desktop file opens a terminal when you run it
<xequence> OvenWerks: Starting from the terminal does not show any options to install
<xequence> OvenWerks: Is this only me?
<xequence> OvenWerks: I'm about to rewrite ubuntustudio-controls from scratch, making it an indicator app, with a starter for ubuntustudio-installer among other things
<xequence> So, that's why I was interested in seeing how to start ubuntustudio-installer
<smartboyhw> xequence, if you want updates on the -rt work, check out https://github.com/smartboyhw/ubuntu-saucy-rt
<xequence> Apparently edubuntu has a lot common with us, on not being desktop orientated
<xequence> It's too late in the game to start changing our desktop. But, for 14.04, we should prepare this stuff
<OvenWerks> zequence: been away for a bit will back track and answer some questions in a bit.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-13
<OvenWerks> xequence: zenity should put up a screen in front of the terminal.
<OvenWerks> even if you run ubuntustudio-installer with no package names on the command line.
<OvenWerks> It is a saucy package (my ppa and the US branch which is waiting for review I think ? micahg ?? )
<OvenWerks> micahg: I have been gone since last week. Can I assume I am waiting for a second review?
<OvenWerks> xequence: I would like to move mish's icons even as they are into the -menu package.
<OvenWerks> xequence: the reason for this is that the menu package needs to be there and working before FF. artwork can continue to change after that.
<OvenWerks> The three packages (-installer, -menu and -settings) will need to be changed in sequence. (maybe seeds too)
<micahg> OvenWerks: yeah
<micahg> I'll try to find someone again
<smartboyhw> xequence, ping
<cub> Do we have any thoughts on what kind of applications that would be included in Publishing? I was thinking of people who do wordpress and/or blog sites. In terms of, should we perhaps include for instance Bluefish or similar in the default apps?
<knome> or is it paper-publishing, where you'd want things like scribus?
<cub> that's what's in there today
<cub> font manager, scribus and so on
<knome> you might want to make a difference between those two, they are really different areas
<cub> yes, it might be too big to include as well. 
<knome> sure.
<knome> (not that i'd be too much on top of US development, but...)
<cub> if you install for instance Bluefish it's put in a menu row "Programming"
<knome> heh, right
<cub> No, it's more like "if you include X you should include Y, Z as well"
<knome> i think that's correct though
<cub> yes, it's a coding editor
<cub> knome, are you familiar with what Accessibility applications Xubuntu includes on the live dvd? If any?
<cub> I'm looking into a request to include Orca for visually impaired to make the installation more accessible
<knome> i don't know if we ship something, but iirc, not a lot of it was working the last time we checked
<knome> i think there was something about orca not working
<cub> hmm
<knome> but that's out of my area of expertise, so...
<cub> I'm told it works well with Gnome, but I don't know about xfce
<knome> yeah
<knome> if you get to test it... report us ;)
<cub> Oh well, I have 9 more days to figure it out. ;)
<knome> but no pressure.
<cub> yeah will do.
<knome> we're probably not going to do that for 13.10 anyway, maybe 14.04
<cub> Yes, it might be too tight to get it by 13.10, but I'll give it a shot.
<knome> at the end of the day, 13.10 is not an LTS, so if it's a bit broken... but yeah.
<cub> my thoughts exactly. If we could get it in there more people might try it out to have feedback for 14.04
<knome> definitely
<knome> and if it's in for 13.10, there's still time to test and stuff
<cub> yup
<knome> it's august now and we're releasing on october :)
<smartboyhw> What happened?
<cub> Yeah, I'm new though to the process of how to get new stuff into a release. 
<smartboyhw> You mean, Mir/
<smartboyhw> ?
 * smartboyhw likes Mir:P
<smartboyhw> knome, try it out with 13.10. If many users hate it, switch back in 14.04 will be a good idea:P
<knome> smartboyhw, talking about orca
<smartboyhw> knome, oh
<cub> smartboyhw, no not Mir. I'm looking into how visually impaired/blaind people could access the Ubuntu Studio live dvd to install it.
<smartboyhw> cub, well if we want new things we add it to seeds
<knome> smartboyhw, i don't think that's the right way to approach things
<smartboyhw> cub, oh, accessbility
<smartboyhw> knome, I mean, AFTER the discussion:P
<cub> yes, from the earlier email to the devel list
<knome> smartboyhw, rather than seeing if people "like" it, we should make sure it works for people and has the features we're expecting it to have
<smartboyhw> Of adding things in or something
<smartboyhw> knome, alright...
<knome> smartboyhw, even if it's something we know people will like, it's no good if it's not ready
<cub> It's not hard for them once they have the installation done today, since everything is in the repos. The hard part is to do the installation without any audio feedback or braille reader
<knome> smartboyhw, but i do see where you're coming from
<smartboyhw> knome, so, do YOU think Mir is ready?
<smartboyhw> xequence, ping
<knome> smartboyhw, we're going to evaluate that in a week, but as it is *today*, nope
<smartboyhw> A week can change a LOt
<knome> sure
<knome> that's why i'm not jumping into any decisions now
<knome> but seriously, if there is no multimonitor support, it's not for us
<cub> multi monitor would be important for US I think
<knome> even more with vm support
<cub> US as in Ubuntu Studio. :D
<knome> us and US i think ;)
<knome> and us being xubuntu
<cub> hehe
<knome> smartboyhw, we've done quite a lot of testing and i do think we're giving mir a fair shot
<smartboyhw> knome, :)
<knome> but it might be it's not for us at least before 14.10
<smartboyhw> cub, OvenWerks xequence will you think if it's a good idea to add Mir in if Xubuntu will include Mir?
<smartboyhw> knome, you mean, 13.10?
<knome> smartboyhw, no, 14.10
<smartboyhw> knome, oh
<smartboyhw> :)
<knome> smartboyhw, if we're not including it for 13.10, i doubt we'll include it in the LTS either
 * smartboyhw +1's knome 
<cub> smartboyhw, if it works and doesn't use more resources than xorg today I see no issue about using Mir. But that's my personal opinion.
<knome> one of the snapping points is if it works for *enough* people
<knome> and since we can't know how many users we have or for how many it will work...
<knome> and because it's also hard to decide what is "enough"....
<smartboyhw> knome, yeah:(
<cub> yeah I would like to know how many users Ubuntu Studio have. I suppose it's not possible
<smartboyhw> cub, agreed
<smartboyhw> If we know it, peopel will be screaming at us, thinking that we are spying on them..
<cub> exactly.
<cub> so we should ask NSA how many users there are.
<knome> canonical probably has some statistics
<knome> not that they are public
<cub> from downloads?
<knome> yup
<knome> and the mirrors of course
<cub> mhm
<knome> but naturally, one download doesn't mean one user
<cub> no
<knome> could be zero to dozens
<cub> :)
<cub> But as the homepage states "Ubuntu Studio is the most widely used multimedia orientated GNU/Linux distribution in the world."
<knome> i don't know if you could get any real numbers, but if some mirror had stats about image downloads...
<knome> you could compare if you've gained more users or lost some
<knome> and that should be relatively more accurate than trying to estimate a specific number of users
<cub> still I can download once and install on 30 pcs, or download 10 isos and only use one.
<knome> sure
<cub> I would just be fun to know in a ball park figure
<knome> but if you compare download stats for two releases, installing for more/less than one user doesn't sway the stats so much
<cub> Is it 20? 500? Thousands? Millions? Maybe not but anyhow
<knome> i'm pretty sure it's thousands
<knome> for starters, the @Xubuntu twitter account has ~2500 followers
<knome> they might not all be users, but there will definitely be xubuntu users who aren't on twitter
<knome> like my mum.
<cub> https://twitter.com/ubuntustudio, 10 followers. Doh!
<cub> no 36.
<cub> wohooo
<knome> well you've tweeted once, in january...
<cub> hehe
<knome> we've tweeted 239 times and last time less than a week ago
<cub> yes, I think they have plans for all the communication platforms
<knome> xubuntu g+, 3908 in circles
<cub> I think zequence didn't get access to the twitter account until recently
<knome> xubuntu on facebook, 4865 likes (xubuntu "page", ~8k likes)
<knome> there's sure some overlap, but i'm pretty sure there are also unique ones
<knome> and there's a lot of people who aren't on social media or are not following
<smartboyhw> knome, cub I think the problem with the Twitter account is that even xequence does not have the access
<knome> so by a tentative estimate, i'd say there is at least 15k xubuntu users...
<smartboyhw> Damn, three files failed to be patched
<cub> There, Xubuntu on FB, +1 like. ;)
<knome> cub, heh, thanks for the contribution;)
<smartboyhw> Hey DarkEra 
<DarkEra> hi smartboyhw 
 * smartboyhw acks first build on linux-rt 3.10 package \o/
<xequence> Hi. Just about to have lunch. bb shortly
<smartboyhw> xequence, I'm having good progress here for -rt:)(
<smartboyhw> Though I have to edit the split queue to make it patchable  
<DarkEra> laters guys, project X-Masterbedroom is calling
<xequence> smartboyhw: cool. I'll check it out later
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I have yet to get xMIR to work on any machine.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh:(
<OvenWerks> One is 10years old and the other is new.
<cub> I got xmir on 32bit to run on both my sony vaio and asus eee pc
<smartboyhw> *blink*
<OvenWerks> (so new it needs a kernel newer than 3.8 to work)
<cub> but, the 64bit iso just won't boot on my vaio
<OvenWerks> I have yet to try any 64bit ISO
<smartboyhw> cub, is it that your processor doesn't support 64-bit?
<OvenWerks> I have to DL one sometime.
<cub> no, I run US 64bit
<cub> I think it's something going wrong when creating the usb stick.
<xequence> Does Xmir require 3d?
<cub> xequence, not that I notice since it ran on my eee pc
<OvenWerks> My personal thought on xMIR/MIR is not to even look at it until after 14.04
<xequence> cub: Those have up to date gpus
<xequence> cub: IF you can run gnome-shell, or standard unity, the card has acceleration
<xequence> older cards dont have that
<xequence> OvenWerks: Thing is, we might not be running our own DE at all when releasing 14.04. 
<cub> it can run Unity, just take a few minutes for each mouse click to register. 
<xequence> OvenWerks: Apparently edubuntu does things this way. They base everything on Ubuntu, using overrides/additions
<xequence> OvenWerks: I'm going to look through their code to set up something for us post 13.10 release
<OvenWerks> xequence: that may be, but there are a lot of appliactions we ship that are picky about graphics
<xequence> OvenWerks: We'll have to find out during 14.04 development period
<xequence> OvenWerks: IF we support multiple DEs, we'll choose the one that is best suited as default
<OvenWerks> We may end up sitting on top of another flavour, but we may have to "recommand" one of them.
<OvenWerks>  :)
<OvenWerks> Right now kde works the best for me.
<xequence> All of them work for me. But, I don't use 10+ old machines rightnow
<OvenWerks> I have a brand new board now too.... as of last week
<OvenWerks> Intel D2500CC
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, if you want to use a machine with 10+ years old, use Lubuntu:P
<OvenWerks> Why?
<OvenWerks> KDE works fine
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, it's lightweight really:)
<OvenWerks> xfce works fine for most things
<OvenWerks> XVWM is lighter
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, you might experience a faster OS using LXDE...
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, what's XVWM?
<cub> I haven't seen much difference between running lubuntu or xubuntu, a bit more resources used on Ubuntu Studio though
<OvenWerks> maybe it FVWM
<OvenWerks> It was pretty big before kde/gnome showed up
<cub> but I would like, when time is available, to look into doing a really slimmed down US for audio recording
<xequence> I've never found KDE4 particularly snappy
<OvenWerks> cub: go headless and use nama/midish
<xequence> I think the choice of default DE should have to criterias. It should be good as a live DE. And it should support all our applications
<OvenWerks> xequence: yes.
<xequence> supporting old machines is a plus, but at 2014 I'm not sure if we absolutely need to support machines older than 12 years.
<xequence> We will still have 12.04 for a while
<OvenWerks> It should also work on the magority of HW.
<xequence> and we should put some effort on keeping it alive
 * OvenWerks is off for some family time
<xequence> cub: There's no difference at all almost
<xequence> cub: might be, if you need to use a mass of plugins, where you really need some seriouy CPU power
<xequence> ardour3 is way more efficient then ardour2 when it comes to that
<xequence> OvenWerks: See you later
<xequence> smartboyhw: I'll wait until after feature freeze until checking what you've done, but if you manage to upload to a PPA, I'll gladly try a kernel
<smartboyhw> xequence, it should be ready before ff
<xequence> smartboyhw: Yes, but since the time is so short, it's not a good idea to try to get the kernel in for 13.10
 * smartboyhw agrees
<xequence> 14.04 is our next big goal, so we should have it done by then
<smartboyhw> xequence, and a -rt patch that can be updated with pace:P
<cub> OvenWerks, nama has come to mind but I would like to see what could be done within Ubuntu Studio. I still like to run Ardour for instance, but perhaps on a crappy pc in the rehearsal place and then do the mixing on a more powerful pc at home.
<cub> and after reading several old threads on how "Ubuntu Studio is bloatware" it got me curious on how slim can you go and still call it Ubuntu Studio.
<smartboyhw> xequence, I've made a git branch for linux-meta-rt source package, see https://github.com/smartboyhw/linux-meta-rt-saucy
<xequence> astraljava: You started working on ubiquity plugins at one point right? ubuntustudio-live source. I talked with stgraber, and he pointed me out to their source - edubuntu. I guess yours is based on that too?
<xequence> smartboyhw: You really need to use mr Jobs face?
<smartboyhw> xequence, I'm sorry, but Steve Jobs is my idlo LOL
<smartboyhw> *idio
<smartboyhw> *idiol
<xequence> idols, who needs them..
<smartboyhw> xequence, me:P
<xequence> Well, it's up to you
<xequence> but, it kind of sticks out when seen in context with Linux
<cub> If he was alive he would probably sue you.
<smartboyhw> cub, \o/
<xequence> lol
<astraljava> xequence: Yes I suppose so. It's been a long time since I took a stab at them. I'm gonna have to look them up later, sorry my memory is failing me. :/
<smartboyhw> astraljava, how are you doing recently?
<OvenWerks> cub: I would base the apps a sight impared user would find helpful on what sight impared people are actually using.
<OvenWerks> There are some very simple things a sighted user does that we don't even think about that are impossible for someone who is blind.
<OvenWerks> I find nama hard to use, becasue I have to remember so much. :)
<OvenWerks> But, not that long ago, the linux world was text based for just about everything
<OvenWerks> For example, try learning emacs
<cub> OvenWerks, Orca and Brltty seems to be the most common for visually impaired. Both are in the repos.
<OvenWerks> But emacs still has a huge following in its use area
<cub> though from what I've read it might not work that great with Xfce
<OvenWerks> Easy to try though.
<OvenWerks> take even a live image and install those two apps and try it
<cub> So I thought, but it didn't even start on my test VM. I'm going to try it at home on a "proper" laptop though
<OvenWerks> If they work we should be able to add them
<cub> yeah. It works with the standard Ubuntu live cd as well as the Ubuntu based Vinux
<OvenWerks> What do those two apps do?
<OvenWerks> you may wish to start a conversation with Julian Klassen
<cub> Orca is a screen reader, so it basically reads everything on the screen out loud. Or can send it to a braille output
<cub> Who is Julian Klassen, the name looks familiar
<cub> ?
<OvenWerks> He is a blind composer/recording artist
<cub> brltty sends output to the braille display
<OvenWerks> He started out trying to use a mac, but found it very frustrating.
<OvenWerks> He switched to linux because he was able to work with it.
<OvenWerks> With the mac he found much of his work he needed a sighted person to help with minor things like a setting.
<cub> mhm
<OvenWerks> None of the recording apps worked well for a blind person, not even those that were suppoedly having support for that.
<OvenWerks> There are two people on the LAU mailing list who are blind, I have tried to think what would work best for them.
<OvenWerks> but many of the apps they want to use require a GUI.
<OvenWerks> for example many of the LV2 plugins do
<cub> No I can't imagine how to work in Ardour without sight. But when I worked at the Swedish centre for visually impaired the blind sound engineers got along just fine (not with Ardour in that time though)
<OvenWerks> I know my wife (who can see just fine) has made the effort to learn all the KB shortcuts for speed reasons. I would assume a blind person knows them better.
<cub> I have to head home. Family waiting. :)
<OvenWerks> But she learns them by using sight. Something that auto reads every pop up might be helpful except that most of those show when hovering a mouse or right clicking.
<OvenWerks> TTYL
<OvenWerks> wow our CAPS plugin package is a bit behind... we have 0.4.2 and the latest is 0.9.10
<OvenWerks> the latest one has what looks like a nice exciter in it.
<cub> oops
<cub> Not a department in music where 'older is cooler' :D
<OvenWerks> cub: That is one of the biggest problems we have. The LTS is missing so much new stuff. Each of our releases becomes important
<OvenWerks> Thing is I am not sure what version debian has for us to sync to.
<cub> Yes it's a mix between providing a stable platform and keep updated with the new cool stuff
<cub> Then again, the user can always upgrade themselves.
<cub> It's just that the support from the community might be a bit trickier.
<cub> Which it will be when/if US become DE agnostic I suppose.
<cub> When we try to support all different DEs
<knome> other flavors will support the DEs
<cub> there will always be the mix when troubleshooting
<OvenWerks> knome: right. That is what we are relying on.
<OvenWerks> cub: in many ways we are already DE agnostic.
<OvenWerks> our metas can be added to any DE now.
<OvenWerks> Our menu is just waiting for icons.
<OvenWerks> We could add an audio-settings package on it's own or as part of the audio meta.
<OvenWerks> cub: your earlier comment about bloatware is being addressed by allowing a user to only install the workflow they need at initial install.
<xequence> OvenWerks: I haven't heard from madeinkobaia or a while. He's usually productive, but if for some reason he hasn't got the icons done by this weekend, I'll fix them
<OvenWerks> xequence: great!
<xequence> OvenWerks: There's not much more that needs to be done. But, if one likes, one could improve them somewhat
<xequence> I'll settle for something that works
<OvenWerks> i'm not an artist, they are already better than mine.
<knome> xequence, you guys need a hand updating the installer slideshow?
<knome> going to update the xubuntu one today, and i could push US changes to the main branch at the same time
<OvenWerks> knome, I think ours is pretty much version independant
<knome> OvenWerks, sure, just asking if you wanted to change something
<OvenWerks> we don't have the new BG figured out I think... that would be the change
<knome> the xubuntu one is pretty good too, but we want to change a few things this time
<xequence> Yes, it would be good to change that image
<xequence> We need a new wallpaper pretty quickly now
<knome> xequence, UIF on sept 19
<xequence> knome: Ah, right
<OvenWerks> If there are any internet things that have a date we should look at that.
<xequence> it's later
<knome> sure
<xequence> OvenWerks: What do you meanby internet things?
<OvenWerks> in the slide show, like an email screen that says 2010 or something
<OvenWerks> (as a message date)
<OvenWerks> plymouth has no version
<xequence> Don't recall anythinglike that, but we needto check either way
<knome> just checked and looks like the only thing you need to update is the wallpaper shot and if you want, the USC image if you wish to
<knome> bzr branch ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu
<knome> then run ./test-slideshow.sh ubuntustudio on the branch directory
<knome> err, bzr branch lp:...
<cub> OvenWerks, sure anyone can tweak an Ubuntu installation. But from a user support area it's always a bit more difficult trying to guide someone running another DE than the same one as myself. I mean in some cases it's hard to guide people even when we look at the same screen.
<xequence> knome: So, are you going with LSC for 13.10?
<knome> xequence, nope
<cub> LSC?
<xequence> cub: Lubuntu Software Center
<cub> aha
<xequence> OvenWerks: There will be a meeting on creating a multimedia blend of Debian at debconf
<xequence> OvenWerks: That would mean they create metas sort of like we do
<xequence> I could imagine us using those instead of our own, or maybe some combination of the two. Since, they will become available with all derivatives
<xequence> there could be a reason to think about moving some of our source to Debian
<xequence> would probably not be under the ubuntustudio name (not that it can't be)
<xequence> it's important of course that we have a similar view on what we want to accomplish with those metas
<xequence> Just an idea so far
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-14
<OvenWerks> !pastebin
<ubottu> For posting multi-line texts into the channel, please use http://paste.ubuntu.com | To post !screenshots use http://imagebin.org/?page=add | !pastebinit to paste directly from command line | Make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic.
<OvenWerks> For those who care... http://imagebin.org/267491
<OvenWerks> This doubles the amount of code, but gets rid of the terminal completely.
<OvenWerks> still left to do: handle the case if someone hits cancel or change the zenity commandlineso it doesn't show at all if I can.
<OvenWerks> no such commandline option :P
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: how does this look? http://imagebin.org/267491
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, +1
<OvenWerks> Twice the code of course
<OvenWerks> But still not a lot
<OvenWerks> I still need to build a handler for the case where the user hits cancel :P
<OvenWerks> I dialog explaining why they should not interupt an install and what they will need to do to fix it if they insist :)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh:P
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, what's the bzr branch of ubuntustudio-installer?
<OvenWerks> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-installer
<OvenWerks> but the gui progress bar is not in there yet.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh:(
<smartboyhw> Boo
<OvenWerks> I am waiting for review on what is there... not sure if I want to disturb that
<OvenWerks> I still have some more local testing to do too.
<OvenWerks> I didn't want to do endless installs for testing so I piped the apt-get output to a file and cat that into my program till I got the gui working right.
<OvenWerks> Next I have to do the error handler(s) for goofy things the user might do... then I can enable apt-get for test.
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I need to get this in before FF as well as the menu as one depends on the other.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, OK
<cub> xequence, that multimedia meeting on Debconf would be very interesting. Take notes! :D
<xequence> cub: I'm the only one in the team going there pretty much.
<xequence> since I have something to bring from Ubuntu Studio, I'm hoping I could take a leading role in designing the metas
<cub> That would be great. Funny since I asked about that just days ago. :P
<xequence> cub: The idea has been around for a while, but not many havge shown interest
<cub> we'll see how it goes this time around then
<cub> xequence, I can't remember, but you did get access to the twitter account right?
<xequence> cub: I have access to it now, yes
<xequence> not using it separately, though I suppose we could
<cub> No it just came up yesterday in another discussion
<cub> though you being at debconf would be a good opportunity
<xequence> So much stuff floating around right now. I think wew could do updates on our development progress. The webshop is coming up. Things like that
<cub> We have a combined PR & Support team? :D And a separate web team.
<cub> I wouldn't say that PR and support are really that related. Yes, good support is great PR but â¦ well
<xequence> The web team is for designing and maintaining the actual web site
<xequence> IN our case, PR and support are
<xequence> since we communicate with users directly
<xequence> our social sites can do both PR and support
<xequence> the LP team gives people access to our website
<xequence> as moderators
<xequence> But I guess we could expand PR beyond our own channels
<xequence> and in that case, it would be more separated
<cub> I think so. There's much one could do, but as always. It needs people that have time and skill for it.
<xequence> yes, but its good to call for that sort of thing specifically too
<xequence> make some plans and try to get someone to work on it
<cub> holstein and ttoine is already on it?
<cub> I mean planning.
<xequence> not really
<xequence> holstein is mainly doing support
<xequence> ttoine is mainly working on our webshop right now
<xequence> The only one doing planning here is probably me
<xequence> in a broader scope that is
<cub> hehe among the other 124 things?
<xequence> madeinkobaia has some great ideas on the art department, also about structuring it
<xequence> hoping he'll have time to work on that during this next cycle
<cub> hmm Lubuntu and Xubuntu has stickers availble at http://www.unixstickers.com/
<cub> I'd slap a Ubuntu Studio logo on my laptops if they were available.
<xequence> yeah, we should get that
 * cub is still waiting for the shirts and mug to show up
<cub> xequence, how long was the delivery to you?
<xequence> phew, I have an exam coming up next week. need to study some hours each day for that. need to start doing that now
<xequence> cub: 2-3 days
<cub> hmm it's been a week for me now. I'm impatient.
<xequence> maybe four for the cup
<xequence> a week sounds too long
<cub> examsâ¦.doh, I should contact my Uni to postpone for another year. :/
<xequence> cub: You study at the university?
<cub> Beteendevetenskap at Mittuniversitet
<cub> semi-distance courses
<cub> but I did the first year 100% as well as work 100%, which became a bit much when we got a kid. :P
<xequence> I can imagine :P
<cub> You can only do 200% for so long.
<xequence> ttoine should look at unixstickers
<xequence> he's the one sitting on the legal stuff, so its better he takes care of that
<cub> hmm my order is still "In production" meaning it's not even shipped yet..gaaah
<xequence> madeinkobaia needs to do the artwork for it, or if he can't, I do it, since I have a pretty good idea of how it's done now
<cub> yeah, or a similar EU based company. :P Taxes and stuff...
<xequence> cub: Ah,ok
<cub> holstein, is there room in the topic for #ubuntustudio to ask people to stick around a bit when asking questions? Seems many leave in frustration when noone answer within a couple of minutes.
<knome> cub, i don't think that helps a lot. people do the same on #xubuntu
<cub> probably
<cub> How come the "standard" keyboard shortcut ctrl+alt-t doesn't open a terminal in Ubuntu Studio?
<smartboyhw> xequence, hmm I can't get one thing to work: The -rt package keeps on overwriting the control files...
<smartboyhw> And making the -image package disappear...
<xequence> smartboyhw: Cant help you until at least after FF with that. Too many other things to do right now
<astraljava> Hey smartboyhw, I've been alright, somewhat anyway. Very busy, now with 2 jobs and restarting my studies in order to find a better one that would eliminate the need to have multiple. =) And how have you been?
<cub> That sounds like busy indeed, astraljava !
<cub> astraljava, what are you studying?
<smartboyhw> astraljava, oh good:) I'm great here also:)
<knome> i'd still say the thing keeping astraljava actually busy is something else than the two jobs and studies ;)
<knome> but that's just my interpretation...
<smartboyhw> knome, i.e. ?
<smartboyhw> :P
<knome> a lady+
<knome> ?
<smartboyhw> Oh...Oh...Oh...Oh...Oh...Oh...
<smartboyhw> astraljava, sigh:P
<knome> it is to my best intentions to keep astraljava busy with the lady though :P
<cub> dangerous stuff that. Time consuming and need prioritations. ;)
 * smartboyhw wonders why this channel suddenly became a gossip channel:P
<knome> lots of invaluable benefits, too
<knome> smartboyhw, didn't you notice this became #ubuntustudio-gossip when i joined?
<smartboyhw> knome, ok, then I should op and kick you for being the person who starts the gossip...:P
<xequence> This channel is less formal than most, and I think that's quite ok
<smartboyhw> I know, LOL
<smartboyhw> ï¼P
<smartboyhw> xequence, how's Debconf?
<knome> besides... is first-hand information told to others when concerning party is around considered gossip anyway?
<xequence> smartboyhw: Today is fiedl trip day. I dont have time to go hiking, so I stayed at home
<smartboyhw> xequence, it's field trip day, and you have NO time? :(
<smartboyhw> knome, your choice....
<xequence> This is like a vacation from vacation, so I can do some work
<cub> xequence, sound like Inception. A vacation within a vacation that end up being work.
<smartboyhw> xequence, you made me feel like you are my Dad:O
<xequence> Well, I'm probably not as busy as I should be, but one tries
<knome> smartboyhw, what if he *is* your dad?
<smartboyhw> xequence, it makes me remember my Christmas holidays, never got to enjoy it since exam's directly after it
<smartboyhw> knome, bah:P
<smartboyhw> I mean, he is my lifelong mentor for sure
<smartboyhw> But DAD, uh hum
<xequence> cub: Maybe I'm actually on vacation from a vacation from a vacation, but I didn't realize I was asleep
<smartboyhw> knome, insulting other's father is NOT a good idea
<knome> smartboyhw, i'm not insulting anyone
<smartboyhw> knome, you are directly insulting my Dad that he is xequence sorry
<knome> smartboyhw, i'm sorry if i offended you - none meant
<smartboyhw> :)
<astraljava> knome isn't completely off target here, but yeah, there are _some_ other reasons for that, too. =) cub: I need to finish my Bachelor of Economics, major Information Systems science. Not sure what major I'll pick for my Masters after that, though. Need to figure that out during the fall, too.
<xequence> astraljava: Nice feeling when you are progressing, somewhere, anywhere :). Good also to hear you found a special friend.
<OvenWerks> xequence: the installer should be a GUI pretty quick. Just one last detail to figgure out.
<xequence> OvenWerks: Ok. I'm redoing -controls too, all though it will be extremely simple. It will have a starter for the installer
<xequence> I'll put in the ability to administer rt privilege at least
<xequence> then we can see about progressing features for 14.04
<xequence> OvenWerks: Oh, and make sure that the metas appear both when you start using the desktop file and from terminal
<xequence> for some reason it didn't for me
<xequence> I never tried installing anything yet
<OvenWerks> Ga!, he left!
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, LOL
<knome> he left, me right
<OvenWerks> it is not meant to do what he expects :)
<OvenWerks> The SW to show has to be listed on the command line.
<knome> OvenWerks, are you talking about some extended UI for ubiquity to install extra packages?
<OvenWerks> knome: no
<OvenWerks> xequence: have you looked at the man page?
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-installer needs the names of the packages ti display on the command line :)
<OvenWerks> this allows it to be a different installer depending on the desktop file.
<OvenWerks> knome: We made desktop files for USC that display extra sw we don't ship that is relevent to the sub menu it shows in.
<xequence> OvenWerks: Ah. Well, since it needs an argument, it would make sense for it to give an error message
<OvenWerks> But USC is cumbersome
<OvenWerks> A usage.
<OvenWerks> It is on my list now.
<cub> OvenWerks, I did some more test after our discussion yesterday about Orca (for visually impaired). I couldn't get it to work in my 13.04 VM machine. So I tried my 13.04, still no go. 13.04 Live boot on USB, wouldn't start. Installed on my 12.04 laptop, ran ok right away.
<xequence> OvenWerks: I'd have it not start the gui at all if no argument was given and give a simple usage, as well as hint to the man page
<cub> OvenWerks, will continue to test with saucy to see if it act like 13.04 or 12.04.
<OvenWerks> It is not meant ever to be run from command line.
<OvenWerks> cub thanks.
<xequence> OvenWerks: Anything can be run from the command line
<xequence> OvenWerks: It is run using a command
<xequence> and it needs an argument to function as intended
<OvenWerks> xequence: so that makes sense to not show a blank screen
<cub> OvenWerks, could be xfce 4.8 vs 4.10 that creates the issue.
<OvenWerks> cub 4.12 is almost out.
<cub> yeah
<knome> not exactly
<cub> but form the release plans I read for 4.10 the support for Orca should have been improved. :P
<knome> there is no specific roadmap for the 4.12 release schedule
<cub> knome, xubuntu 13.10 might still run 4.10 right?
<knome> most probably will
<OvenWerks> knome: almost means ..... not yet ;)
<xequence> OvenWerks: If it doesn't break anything, and is a useful feature, it should be put in. The less confusion the better. It only took me 10 seconds to think it was broken somehow
<knome> i wish it was almost out, using the word "almost" in the sense most people understand it
<xequence> OvenWerks: Considering the way the application is designed, only the desktop file seems to be ubuntu studio specific. The application could be named something else entirely - having no desktop file, since it could be used for other things. Then, have a package with a the desktop file "Ubuntu Studio Installer" and have it depend on it
<xequence> OvenWerks: The script itself is not Ubuntu Studio specific anyhow, not even multimedia specific. Just a thought
<xequence> OvenWerks: I'm gathering you want to add specific desktop files for "extras" having a determined list of extras.
<OvenWerks> xequence: yes.
<xequence> OvenWerks: That means we need to do an inventory on all multimedia applications each cycle, and adjust those starters
<xequence> Very hands on approach
<xequence> would be better to use search functions, as I believe is how it is done now with software center
<OvenWerks> not just MM, but other art forms, but I think that is what you meant
<xequence> MM for me is all types of media
<xequence> multimedia content creation applications
<xequence> to be more specific
<OvenWerks> I am putting the die with usage in for no arguments.
<xequence> OvenWerks: Great. We can figure out more details next cycle.
<OvenWerks> I also need to catch the user killing the progress bar while install is taking place.
<OvenWerks> they need to know that stopping apt-get part way through is not a good idea.
<OvenWerks> (or any install)
<OvenWerks> xequence: if there is any interest in this outside of ubuntustudio, I have no problem renaming it.
<OvenWerks> however the package is in review as is, once it is through that, bugs are easy to fix.
<xequence> OvenWerks: Depending on the evolution of the script, if it remains being as generic as it is, I think it would be a good idea to rename it, and use something in the line I described for Ubuntu Studio to make use of it
<xequence> We're a bit short in time right now, so better just to run with what we have
<OvenWerks> yup
<OvenWerks> I think better to have more use than less.
<xequence> I like to think in those terms as well
<OvenWerks> I started with just installing metas, but by moving the packages to the command line it takes care of our extra installs too. BTW it will not show a package that is not in the repos even if it is on the command line.
<OvenWerks> so... I should also print an error and die if none of the packages are in repo.
<OvenWerks> And this error should also pop a dialog
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, xequence BTW, we are experiencing image build failures the past two days
<smartboyhw> The following packages have unmet dependencies:
<smartboyhw>  cups-filters : Conflicts: ghostscript-cups
<smartboyhw>  libavcodec-extra-53 : Conflicts: libavcodec53 but 6:0.8.6-1ubuntu2 is to be installed
<smartboyhw>  libavcodec53 : Conflicts: libavcodec-extra-53 but 6:0.8.6ubuntu2 is to be installed
<smartboyhw>  libavformat-extra-53 : Conflicts: libavformat53 but 6:0.8.6-1ubuntu2 is to be installed
<smartboyhw>  libavformat53 : Conflicts: libavformat-extra-53 but 6:0.8.6ubuntu2 is to be installed
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: any clues why
<smartboyhw>  libpostproc-extra-52 : Conflicts: libpostproc52 but 6:0.8.6-1ubuntu2 is to be installed
<smartboyhw>  libpostproc52 : Conflicts: libpostproc-extra-52 but 6:0.8.6ubuntu2 is to be installed
<smartboyhw>  libswscale-extra-2 : Conflicts: libswscale2 but 6:0.8.6-1ubuntu2 is to be installed
<smartboyhw> (Sorry for not pasting it in a link but)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, ^
<OvenWerks> Ga!
<OvenWerks> The cups one will be generic
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, did you change the seeds the past few days?
<OvenWerks> no
<OvenWerks> It looks like libav has gone thrugh some changes
<holstein> cub: let me look and see...
<holstein> *re: topic
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: sent it off in a letter to myself...
<holstein> cub: add something like "| please be patient"
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: it would actually be helpful just to post the error bits on the dev list seeing as the posts we get have nothing in them. I always forget where to find the build logs.
<holstein> or, "your patience is appreciated"?
<smartboyhw> holstein, latter one
<OvenWerks> holstein: or an answer may take hours :)
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, it would be too long that it would basically be spam
<OvenWerks> or days... but don't say that
<smartboyhw> Maybe we should make it that only you and me and xequence receives the mail but not the others;P
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I don't mean the whole build log, just the error and only once.
<holstein> "ask and patiently wait for an answer"
<holstein> ...something about a smaller community?
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: like just the part you put above.
<holstein> i'll wait and try and catch cub about it.. i wouldnt mind addressing that in the /topic for sure
<smartboyhw> holstein, cub should be back shortly
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, we should ask the Ubuntu Release team for that I think
<cub> holstein, perhaps, but as knome said it might not help no matter what we write in the topic. People are impatient. :D
<holstein> cub: and, the folks who seem to not "get it" seem to not be aware that the topic is there :/
<OvenWerks> cub: holstein my irc client only shows the first 80 charactors anyway
<cub> hehe yeah that too
<holstein> cub: i wouldnt mind addressing the "approriate" quesiton more as well
<holstein> folks dont understand what is studio specific
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, your IRC client sucks:P
<holstein> and why they might want to ask in #ubuntu or #xubuntu instead.. also, they get redirected from those channels
<OvenWerks> I think when I first join a channel it puts the whole thing in.
<cub> holstein, true
<smartboyhw> holstein, let's wait for xequence to join in the discussion:)
<holstein> if someone comes in and says "im running ubuntustudio and cant get my broadcom wifi card to work".. they get redirected back to #ubuntustudio.. and for no good reason
<smartboyhw> holstein, yeah
<holstein> maybe a link in the topic to specific bot triggers
<cub> OvenWerks, yes it does show when joining, but not all notice or bother to read.
<holstein> !broadcom
<ubottu> Help with Broadcom bcm43xx can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx
<holstein> ^^ for example
<smartboyhw> !ubuntustudio
<ubottu> UbuntuStudio is a collection of packages for the artist who wishes to use Ubuntu as their Digital Audio Workstation. It contains all the best Audio/Visual components from the Ubuntu repositories. For more info and install instructions, join #ubuntustudio or see http://ubuntustudio.org
<holstein> but, even that bot use is a bit tricky for new folks
<OvenWerks> another bot?
<holstein> for folks who think of this as "tech support" and dont understand
<cub> hmm Digital Audio Workstation, perhaps an update would be in order?
<smartboyhw> The problem is that I don't want them storming into #ubuntu-ops complaining about no support..
<smartboyhw> #ubuntu-irc
<smartboyhw> also
<holstein> OvenWerks: i was thinking just a link in the /topic that would state clearly a few things.. like "for help with broadcom type !broadcom" or visit that link.. or whatever
<smartboyhw> holstein, the topic will be TOO long
<holstein> smartboyhw: they will though.. and have threatened.. but, thats not what the channel is
<smartboyhw> We can't just include everything
<holstein> its not "/join ubuntstudio for *guaranteed* tech support"
<holstein> its a community portal, and folks dont quite get that at first
<knome> maybe a shared wiki page explaining where you can get support for specific things would be good
<cub> #xfce has "Ask your question and then BE PATIENT AND IDLE FOR A WHILE"
<holstein> knome: right? with a bit.ly.. a short thing
<cub> hehe capitals ...
<smartboyhw> knome, good idea
<holstein> i was idle in ubuntustudio for 2 weeks.. and then, i just decided to stay there..
<smartboyhw> We can make "Please read *some link* for your issue first before asking"
<holstein> that was my initial inspiration for doing irssi in screen.. so i could *always* be in #ubuntustduio
<knome> the other option is to simply tell people in #xubuntu to join #ubuntustudio if somebody there would need xfce support
<smartboyhw> knome, you mean the opposite?!
<OvenWerks> <->
<holstein> knome: i have a few recruits
<knome> i mean, the support people
<smartboyhw> holstein, recruits?
<smartboyhw> :O
<holstein> unit idles there
<smartboyhw> Yeah
<holstein> and i asked a few others that come and go
<knome> ideally, people using ubuntu studio should get support in #ubuntustudio
<holstein> its quite helpful
<cub> most often they have quit their irc before I can tell them to try #xubuntu or #xfce
<holstein> knome: ideally...
<smartboyhw> cub, that's a +1
<smartboyhw> Not realistically:p
<knome> of course that puts more burden for the supporters
<holstein> knome: and, really, just having a few warm bodies in there saying "hey, try this, and wait" or whatever..
<knome> holstein, exactly, which is why it would help to just tell some supported on #xubuntu to join #ubuntustudio
<cub> knome, good point. That might be better than to send the OP to other channels
<holstein> knome: any suggestions? unit /join ed when i asked
<holstein> everyone has been quite helpful from the xubuntu team... testing iso's and whatnot
<knome> holstein, don't know. probably some emails to mailing lists or sth
<knome> holstein, or simply poking people who seem to be active on #xubuntu 
<holstein> there is a user in #ubuntu that i was trying to ask as well
<holstein> ok.. lets try and just get some warm bodies in there then.. and lets think about a page with FAQ's or whatever
<holstein> and i'll revamp the /topic as needed..
 * holstein asks that user again...
<knome> i can try to help with efforts on creating a shared wikipage or whatever, but at this point, i can't promise to lead such an effort
<holstein> hes not on.. i asked him in PM and i think he quit before reading it.. that was a few weeks ago, and i got busy
<smartboyhw> Normally, it will be xequence who leads our doc efforrt
<smartboyhw> holstein, but don't expect him to work on such things before FF, that was what I was told:P
<smartboyhw> FF = Feature Freeze
<holstein> well, z equence will see the scroll here, and we can discuss.. no need to fragment if we already have an FAQ page that could just be fixed up
 * smartboyhw isn't sure about that
<cub> Not an FAQ per se, but some good info: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio
<smartboyhw> holstein, BTW xequence = zequence 
<holstein> right.. i just though we werent trying to ping him for some good reason :)
<smartboyhw> holstein, we are with a good reason here:P
<cub> Then I have found other studio related wiki pages on there that's not linked to ours, I had an ambition to get some work done there during my vacationâ¦but I ended up taking vacation instead.
<holstein> whatever we do needs to be simple and easy for us to maintain.. nothing will ultimately work for every user
<cub> I do a lot of documentation at work in different formats so when the time is there I could probably gather what we find, that is not already in there
<holstein> ive dont a lot of support on IRC, and 96% or so is knowing how to use google...
<cub> I usually spend most time on Ubuntuforums
<holstein> cub: thats great. i *hate* the forums...
<holstein> and i rarely chime in on the mailing list
<knome> smartboyhw, from my POV, i don't think this is something that needs to be coordinated by any leader; it can be a community-driven project, even more because it needs to be an inter-flavor one
<holstein> just when i cant leave something Ralph says alone ;)
<cub> irc is harder since I'm usually trying to do other stuff at the same time and doesn't respond fast enough
<xequence> cub: Have you been reading through that wiki at all?
<holstein> cub: having a strong steady presence in the forums is helpful
<holstein> cub: are you a moderator?
<cub> xequence, yes, but I get lost after a few clicks
<cub> holstein, no, i just jump in where I can.
<xequence> cub: Just look through the front page
<xequence> cub: There's two places with links to the IRC page
<xequence> cub: If you want to add something, do it there
<xequence> The idea was always that we add docs to our main site as well
<cub> xequence, that's good.
<xequence> better first do the docs in the wiki, then move stuff to the main site
<holstein> xequence: do we have an FAQ page? something i could easily edit and add a link to on the IRC /topic?
<holstein> that might solve a lot of this. assuming a user reads the /topic... which im not sure they do.. or know what that means
 * cub just started to read Jono's book on communities
<holstein> cub: ive heard its a good read
<cub> Is Jejeman on ubuntuforums anyone here? He's very helpful in the forums on studio questions
<smartboyhw> knome, inter-flavour?
<smartboyhw> Ooh, I didn't realize that:P
<smartboyhw> cub, is there a book?
<smartboyhw> cub, I don't think so
<cub> smartboyhw, http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/get/ there's a PDF
<knome> smartboyhw, yes, the art of community
<cub> crap, I'm late, gotta run!
<smartboyhw> holstein, knome: I will help write the documentation if you want:)
<holstein> smartboyhw: thanks!
<knome> smartboyhw, sure, thanks
<smartboyhw> knome, holstein so, 1. Where do we want to place the page?
<smartboyhw> 2. How are we going to collaborate to write on it?
<xequence> holstein: This page is the only one that deals with IRC, and is reachable from both our wikis from the header https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/IRC
<holstein> xequence: let me scroll through it real quick
<xequence> holstein: It just explains how to get online, and which channels are interesting
<xequence> so, if anyone likes, just add stuff there
<xequence> Probably best to add that in the beginning
<holstein> xequence: would you mind if second there were an "faq" section?
<holstein> nothing to elaborate.. 
<holstein> i think the shorter the better.. precise.. just a list of common issues and pages that might help
<xequence> holstein: You mean like a FAQ for IRC only, on the IRC page?
<holstein> broadcom issues? go here..
<holstein> xequence: right. like 2nd there
<holstein> before or after the webchat link
<xequence> holstein: Just add it at the top, I think
<holstein> xequence: OR.. it could be down a bit, and i can link to that specific area..
<smartboyhw> holstein, nice idea
<smartboyhw> holstein, wait, xequence's idea is better
<holstein> xequence: i'll play around with it.. 
<smartboyhw> Because people don't necessarily HAVE to spend time going to the IRC channel if the specific area is at the top, already answering their question
<xequence> Right now, the only problem I see is that people don't realize it might take time before one answers
<xequence> just adding a note about that in the beginning, like an introduction to what IRC is would be enough, but it's up to the author
 * smartboyhw +1's xequence's idea
<holstein> i think i can link to an area down the page easily though.. and if someone hits that page in a google search, it will be more relevant to that person
<smartboyhw> xequence, will we have vUDS sessions?
<xequence> smartboyhw: When is the next one, do you know?
<smartboyhw> xequence, 27-29
<smartboyhw> August
<xequence> not sure if I'll have time
<smartboyhw> No then:P
<xequence> we'll see
<smartboyhw> xequence, eh?
<holstein> OK.. so, this is what i had in mind.. linking from the main channel
<holstein> http://bit.ly/usircfaq
<holstein> "FAQ for common issues visit http://bit.ly/usircfaq" or something
<xequence> holstein: Wait, you want to write a specific page for it?
<holstein> then, the IRC link is still "general" enough if its stumbled upon from the internet.. and the folks who read the topic would see a list that we can manage
<xequence> Ah, no, sorry
<holstein> xequence: i dont think we need one.. if that works for you
<smartboyhw> holstein, maybe "Please read FAQ at http://bit.ly/usircfaq before asking" 
<xequence> holstein: Yeah, i prefer keeping things minimal
<xequence> those who want to see the change need to refresh
<xequence> help.ubuntu.com is weird in this way
<holstein> yeah, the text is up for debate.. but do you like the linking?
<holstein> and the placement on the main page?
<holstein> the "general" idea so far?
<xequence> holstein: Ah, I thought this was about informing users that they sometimes need to wait
<smartboyhw> xequence, I'm wondering if I should update the page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/TeamStructure so cub is included...
<xequence> holstein: We should probably link that to another page
<holstein> xequence: that will get added as well, and could also be added to that page.. 
<xequence> holstein: Something to do with hardware support, let me check
<holstein> xequence: sure.. i can undo that or link where ever
<xequence> smartboyhw: what teams is cub in?
<xequence> smartboyhw: YOu can do it if you want
<smartboyhw> xequence, good question:P
 * smartboyhw checks
<smartboyhw> Who's Luke Kuhn BTW? He's in the contributor team..
<smartboyhw> Ah, lukefromdc
<smartboyhw> We should check on him on the cinnamon progress...
<xequence> holstein: this is better for hardware stuff https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/SupportedHardware
<smartboyhw> xequence, cub doesn't seem to be on any teams;(
<xequence> holstein: Just add a section about network devices. Now, there's only audio and graphic cards
<xequence> smartboyhw: That's what I thought
<xequence> so, no reason to update the page
<smartboyhw> xequence, yeah, so sad that he hasn't joined;(
<xequence> He'll get there
<xequence> he just needs to learn a lot of things, as he's still quite new to all of this
<smartboyhw> Wow, we actually have 299 team members in ~ubuntustudio LP team
<smartboyhw> Unfortunately, the contributor base is still small;(
<smartboyhw> 2-3%...
<smartboyhw> xequence, I think the biggest problem is to make people STAY...
<xequence> people in the ~ubuntustudio LP team aren't really contributors, or have at all expressed the desire to be. For now, that group has one good use, and that is it gives you the right to comment on our website
<xequence> I've thought about writing to the members of that group now and again, for informational purposes and to try to get people interested in contributing
<xequence> haven't got around to it yet
<smartboyhw> xequence, you want me to draft up something?
<holstein> ok.. undid changes at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/IRC
<holstein> i have http://bit.ly/studiofaq pointint to that page
<holstein> i was thinking, ideally much more general though
<holstein> like dual head questions
<holstein> but, thats a great place to start
<smartboyhw> Ow, I want ScottL back on IRC for one day, just for a chat:(
<holstein> yeah.. this isnt going to work for what i had in mind
<holstein> i would like to link actual frequently asked questions somewhere
<holstein> in the topic
<holstein> maybe i should just link to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/FAQ and maintain that "better
<holstein> xequence: is that OK?
<xequence> holstein: Well, this is a hardware support issue, is it not?
<xequence> holstein: But I suppose your thinking from a IRC POV, where you add these, I forget the name, like !proaudio
<xequence> holstein: Pass me the link to the broadcom stuff, and I'll edit the page
<smartboyhw> xequence, did you see my message?
<xequence> holstein: The FAQ page could surely need some maintenance
<xequence> smartboyhw: sorry, what is it you want to draft?
<smartboyhw> xequence, your letter to ~ubuntustudio:P
<xequence> smartboyhw: why now
<xequence> not#
<smartboyhw> xequence, :)
<xequence> argh, Swizz kb
<smartboyhw> LOL
<smartboyhw> xequence, I will send you a draft probably next week
<smartboyhw> xequence, BTW, 12.04.3 is NEXT WEEK
<smartboyhw> :P
<xequence> holstein: There is a hardware section in the FAQ as well
<xequence> holstein: What's the link to the broadcom thing?
<holstein> !broadcom
<ubottu> Help with Broadcom bcm43xx can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs/Driver/bcm43xx
<holstein> xequence: i was thinking more as a general FAQ for a new user.. but it could be just hardware
<holstein> but the questions are not always hardware
<holstein> lots of XFCE specific stuff that could have a link
<holstein> not that anyone will check or notice the link
<xequence> holstein: Ok, so, what you were aiming for was just a general FAQ
<xequence> holstein: You could also just point to our help wiki
<xequence> ..which includes all of that anyway
<holstein> xequence: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio ?
<holstein> ok.. i'll go with http://bit.ly/usirchelp for now
<holstein> then, that page might get some attention as well..
<xequence> holstein: Yes, the first one you linkes
<xequence> linked*
<holstein>  ok.. how about.. Welcome to the Ubuntu Studio support channel | 13.04 and 12.04.2 Now Released http://ubuntustudio.org/download | Support forum http://ubuntuforums.org | Please be patient and visit http://bit.ly/usirchelp if no one is around | General music making and studio chatter is allowed
<holstein> xequence: ^
<holstein> then, we can maintain that help page as needed.. adding whatever
<holstein> links to existing docs or help pages..
<xequence> holstein: Why are you using a hidden link? And, might be good to use http://ubuntustudio.org/documentation, as it links to the same page
<xequence> er, no it didn't
<holstein> xequence: the size
<holstein> let me see if its fits with the normal one
<xequence> holstein: Is there a max size?
<holstein> yes
<holstein> for the topic
<holstein> at least, client side...
<holstein> xequence: it fit
<holstein> i removed the xubuntu links.. added the help link and "patience".. lets try and recruit a few more folks to just sit in there and be a presence and go from there
<holstein> xequence: cool?
<xequence> holstein: Looks fine to me
<holstein> xequence: :)
<holstein> i mean, its one of those, "you cant please everyone" kind of things.. but let roll with it
<holstein> lets*
<xequence> yeah
<holstein> and i (or anyone) can just fire up that page and add what is needed.. about broadcom or dual head.. links to resources
<holstein> that new users can ignore ;)
<xequence> holstein: I added a link to the wifi page in hardware support
<holstein> xequence: and that hardware support is linked at that page ...so i think we have a nice system, in theory
<xequence> it's not exactly a big wiki
<xequence> so, don't really understand why it would be hard to find what you are looking for
<holstein> yeah... folks just needa little "in person" help to get started, usually
<xequence> I made extra effort on minimizing it, and making it easy to orientate
<holstein> depends on where they are coming from
<holstein> though, even linux users dont know that they can use ubuntu resources, typically
<holstein> xequence: i think you have done *great* with minimizing
<holstein> xequence: it was a mess..
<xequence> holstein: thanks
<holstein> the wiki's in general were so fragmented.. and they look cleaner now
<xequence> All of the maintained pages have the same header
<xequence> I'm thinking of adding a side pane to the help wiki that will include links to ALL pages in that wiki
<xequence> can't get easier than that
<xequence> the "dev" wiki, meaning the one at wiki.ubuntu.com has some more navigational stuff in it, since it's a bit richer in content as well
<holstein> i need to revisit my wiki page at some point
<holstein> i have 8 more shows!.. one more week
<holstein> i have a lot of stuff ive been neglecting
<xequence> holstein: Are you being creative at all?
<xequence> and not just working all the time :)
<holstein> xequence: when i can, actually.. its not too much of a creative drain
<holstein> xequence: and i do some tech stuff in the middle of shows.. when i have time
<xequence> holstein: cool
<OvenWerks> xequence: ubuntustudio-installer at branch updated. Commits show changes. Usage included.
<OvenWerks> Waiting for PPA to build
<OvenWerks> ppa stuff is funny, it emails you to tell you of your upload, but not about the build... which would be more useful.
<OvenWerks> I guess it is more of a secuity thing.
<OvenWerks> Anyway: ppa:len-ovenwerks/ppa has ubuntustudio-installer with all the changes.
<xequence> OvenWerks: I'll check it out right away
<xequence> OvenWerks: looks good to me
<OvenWerks> command line or from menu too?
<xequence> OvenWerks: both
<OvenWerks> I need to test in kde and lubuntu as well. Gnome shell and unity are a problem for me just now.
<OvenWerks> I'll have to try them out on the new MB
<xequence> OvenWerks: I was using gnome-shell. I can't imagine there would be any difference on different DEs, or would there?
<OvenWerks> Shouldn't be, as I already confirmed zenity in all.
<OvenWerks> Just being through and I have them on disk anyway
<OvenWerks> There have sure been a lot of chnages in KDE in a week... over 300
<OvenWerks> New qt4 libs a I guess
<xequence> Seems like each time there is an update in KDE, they update all the packages
<xequence> I see that i the changes mail list. A flood of packages at once
<OvenWerks> Yup
<xequence> OvenWerks: you haven't thought about becoming an Ubuntu member and also applying for upload rights in the future
<OvenWerks> lots more experience needed.
<xequence> OvenWerks: Well, sure, but should be managable within the year I think
<xequence> OvenWerks: We don't need to know every detail. Just enough to have a grasp on what we need to do for our own packages to begin with
<xequence> problems trickle down all the time
<xequence> I added the launching ubuntustudio-installer from -controls
<xequence> Just need to add at least rt privilege managing to system settings (which was the original -controls), and maybe also keep memlock tuning
<xequence> then I'm satisfied as far as releasing it
<xequence> OvenWerks: We only need upload rights for our own package set too
<cub> Anyone attending http://uds.ubuntu.com/ ?
<xequence> cub: Well, it's virtual now, so... But, we are probably not having a session of our own
<cub> No I just wondered if someone would listen in on everything. I would like to but the time frame doesn't really fit me
<cub> Still, everything should be watchable afterwards
<xequence> cub: I attended the last physical UDS, but havent't much followed so much after that. It's good to get an idea of what its like, but I think if you have no particular mission that concerns a session, it might not be worth while to attend
<xequence> right, if you don't participate in discussions, you can always watch later
<cub> the agenda didn't contain much yet
<TheDrums> holstein: Yeah, I've not been much help at all in there, though...
<OvenWerks> totem seems to have started working in raring. (at least as a firefox plugin)
<holstein> TheDrums: thanks for hanging in there..
<OvenWerks> TheDrums: just having someone answer is good. People don't feel ignored :)
<holstein> yeah. saying anything at all is helpful, since now, they assume the channel is dead
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-15
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: -installer is all fixed up.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, i.e./
<smartboyhw> ï¼
<OvenWerks> both in the branch and my ppa
<OvenWerks> all gui now
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, oh great:)
<smartboyhw> We can release it soon enough, just needs the power of micahg and another MOTU
<OvenWerks> micah has already checked it, just waiting for second review.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, ask in #ubuntu-motu might be a better idea.
<OvenWerks> The needs packaging bug is still undecided, maybe it should be something more.
<astraljava> xequence: Yeah, progress is nice. Been standing still for way too long. And thanks!
<TheDrums> astraljava: Hello!
<xequence> OvenWerks: what's the bug number?
<astraljava> TheDrums: Hi!
<xequence> OvenWerks: I asked for a reviewer on #ubuntu-motu, but if no one answers, I'll post to the ubuntu-motu mail list
<smartboyhw> cub, welcome back:)
<cub> thanks smartboyhw, it was difficult today. :P
<smartboyhw> cub, why?
<cub> Symantec antivirus had crapped up my work mac
<cub> 1,5 later of reinstalling apps
<smartboyhw> cub, hah
<cub> had to change irc client even
<cub> even after reinstalling and so on xchat remained broken *sigh*
<cub> LimeChat to the rescue. Horrible fonts though..:D
<cub> Still summer holiday, smartboyhw?
<smartboyhw> cub, yes
<smartboyhw> Until 1st September
<smartboyhw> I will start school at 2nd
<smartboyhw> Welcome xequence :)
<xequence> smartboyhw: Thanks. I'm back att debconf.
<xequence> We just took a group photo. The photographer stood on a hill, put the camera on, and then ran slowly down 50m to be in the photo himself
<smartboyhw> ï¼O
<xequence> good thing he didn't trip
<smartboyhw> lol
<smartboyhw> xequence, damn I forgotten, for 12.04.3 we should have a -lts-raring kernel ready:(
<smartboyhw> I did say that before:(
<xequence> smartboyhw: not your job to remember
<xequence> so its ok
<smartboyhw> xequence, we can have it for 12.04.4 I think (sigh)
<xequence> I haven't yet looked at how that works
<smartboyhw> xequence, alright, since you are the kernel maintenace guy, check it out someday:)
<xequence> smartboyhw: I just asked about it on the kernel channel
<smartboyhw> xequence, sure:)
<xequence> smartboyhw: We don't have planning for the LTS at all. Thats a bit of a problem
<smartboyhw> xequence, +1
<OvenWerks> micahg: re: your remark about polkit, there is already a policy in place for apt. Also there seems to be a default policy in place as I can run pkexec cat file.
<OvenWerks> micahg: if I was to set up a policy, it would have to be for apt-get, but I am not sure that is not already covered by org.debian.apt.install-or-remove-packages for example
<OvenWerks> micahg: in fact setting up a policy for apt-get may break policy already in place
<micahg> OvenWerks: ok, so it prompts for the superuser password?
<micahg> not root?
<OvenWerks> yes
<micahg> sorry, current admin user
<micahg> ok, great
<OvenWerks> if I am logged in as a non-admin user it asked for the passwored of the admin user
<micahg> great
 * OvenWerks tested this on my wife's machine
<micahg> and as an admin user, one's own password?
<OvenWerks> yes
<scott-work> zequence: you might consider applying for this: https://plus.google.com/u/0/116317370665849559569/posts/gEUnW2jsB3B
<xequence> scott-work: Hey man :)
<xequence> Someone just wishing for you to appear the other day
<xequence> Well, all of us of course
<xequence> but, I think it was smartboyhw - he's probably asleep right now
<xequence> scott-work: That's not a bad idea, but unfortunately I haven't yet contributed to kernel code at all, so without reading I'm not sure if that applies to me
<xequence> I would like to do that in the future though
<xequence> scott-work: I'm at debconf at the moment, btw
<xequence> in Switzerland
<xequence> Joined the Debian Multimedia Team in May I think it was
<xequence> There will be a meeting about a Debian blend for Multimedia, and since I'm most likely the only attending, plus the experience from US, I'm going to see if i can take a leading role in that
<xequence> try to see about harmonizing Debian/Ubuntu a bit on the multimedia side of things
<xequence> scott-work: How's things going for you. You said you were going to do some studying
<xequence> astraljava is doing some of that as well, as it seems
<xequence> time to leave for home - I'm again not saying at the camp, and have the luck of having a relative living nearby, in this case my sis, so going there over night. bb online in a few
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<OvenWerks> madeinkobaia: Hello :)
<madeinkobaia> OvenWerks: Hi mate :)
<madeinkobaia> OvenWerks: Was fighting with gnome 3 those last days, what a hell !
<OvenWerks> icons  I would like to get names finalized even if the art is not
<madeinkobaia> OvenWerks: What do you mean ?
<OvenWerks> I'll also pass this by zequence 
<OvenWerks> right now they are using the standard names
<OvenWerks> like applications-audio.png
<madeinkobaia> I think I missed a part of the conversation...not sure to understand, I should take a look on dev-list mail...
<OvenWerks> but what that means is that other icon themes override ours
<OvenWerks> we were going to change them so they are unique
<madeinkobaia> ok
<OvenWerks> I think we are just going to take the applications and change that to ubuntustudio
<OvenWerks> The main thing for you, I would guess, is that you know both names are talking about the same thing.
<OvenWerks> I need to change all the *.desktop files to match. and so I would like to start on that soon as I can
<OvenWerks> Also, it looks like the package they will end up in will be ubuntustudio-menu rather than ubuntustudio-icon-theme.
<madeinkobaia> Ok I will check all that. Now I think I will be highly busy those next weeks too. 
<OvenWerks> Life comes first.
<OvenWerks> I hope it's a good busy :)
<madeinkobaia> A great one :D
<OvenWerks> Great! good to hear.
<OvenWerks> I'm off work till sometime in sept.
<madeinkobaia> Otherwise do you know who did the actual ubuntu studio desktop theme ?
<madeinkobaia> It was grounded on a gtk 2 theme I guess
<OvenWerks> Theme? We generally have been using what xubuntu has.
<OvenWerks> we add our own BG and menu
<madeinkobaia> Ok, I will start work on our new theme for the 14.04 soon.
<OvenWerks> I liked it last release, but am not liking the newer one
<OvenWerks> I like the whole bar of the window with focus to change, just changing the colour of the text (grey to black) does not make it obvious enough which window I should be looking at :)
<madeinkobaia> Ok
<OvenWerks> Just my pet peave with most new themes... others may not agree
<OvenWerks> cub: hello.
<madeinkobaia> cub: Hi
<madeinkobaia> Bbl
<cub> Hello OvenWerks and madeinkobaia 
<OvenWerks> cub: in #xubuntu-devel "< texadactyl> Len, Mir could be safely released if LightDM was changed  slightly to decide whether or not to launch Mir based on a  lightdm.conf (new) parameter (switch).  By default, it  should probably be off.
<OvenWerks> does that make sense to you?
<cub> it would force the system to go to the fallback xorg?
<cub> even if the HW would be able to run mir, no?
<OvenWerks> I am thinking with a clear switch that having xmir on an ISO by default would be ok.
<OvenWerks> Ya, apparently there is a config option that can be set on or not.
<cub> I'm not sure I follow. You mean that the ISO would have the switch on to load xmir?
<cub> or the other way around?
<OvenWerks> texadactyl's comment seems to indicate off by default.
<cub> yes
<OvenWerks> That config file is unique to the flavour though, so it would be a flavour's choice.
<OvenWerks> s/would/could
<cub> exactly
<OvenWerks> it would allow easy continued testing without having to keep a separate partition or drive.
<cub> though if everyone could change to mir if they wanted to after boot that would be fine. Not to mess up too much for the users
<cub> exactly
<cub> win-win
<OvenWerks> I think it still requires a reboot... but I could be wrong.
<cub> hmm I don't know. Hopefully it would do with a log off/on but I'm just wishing
<OvenWerks> lightdm is started by upstart... really it should be possible to just change run levels... shh, don't tell the upstart/systemd guys I said that word ;)
<cub> tvoss_	texadactyl, so are you happy with commenting out type=unity in /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf.d/10-unity-system-compositor.conf?
<cub> One reboot for each test until 14.04, I could live with that. =)
<OvenWerks> With two run levels lightdm could be run with a different config file for each.
<cub> woudl that require much more resources from the pc?
<OvenWerks> run levels? no.
<OvenWerks> just checked and lightdm does not seem to have a respawn tag
<OvenWerks> otherwise one could just kill it and it would restart
<OvenWerks> Stock ubuntu/debian has runlevel 2-5 all the same right now.
<OvenWerks> lightdm for example is set "stop on runlevel [016]"
<cub> ok
<OvenWerks> (from the upstart config file)
<cub> On another note, I have totally missed that 12.04.3 is released soon. Is there anything we need to be on top for that, or is everyone already on top of it (except me)?
<OvenWerks> It seems we missed it anyway.
<OvenWerks> maybe a new kernel. but that is not a big DL
<cub> I'm struggling with my laptop to shrink the win-partition to make room for a new test partition to run saucy
<cub> after 1073 steps, it will let me shrink it 26 MB. Yay.
<cub> it's getting late over here, so g'nite folks!
<OvenWerks> xequence: what are the chances of adding a ubuntustudio-audio.preinst to our meta package?
<xequence> OvenWerks: What sort of thing did you have in mind?
<OvenWerks> debconf-set-selections jackd/tweak_rt_limits boolean true
<OvenWerks> Not quite right, but close.
<xequence> you mean that will say yes to installing the audio.conf file by default?
<OvenWerks> The question is, does it affect things with a generic kernel?
<xequence> realtime privilege is not kernel specific at all
<OvenWerks> If a user is installing our audio meta on another flavour it should just work...]
<xequence> They still need to add themselves to audio group
<OvenWerks> :) Thats another problem for another day :)
<xequence> it would be better actually to add a patch explaining this while installing jackd
<xequence> the patch would just add some text - answer yes, then add yourself to audio group
<xequence> ubuntustudio-controls will be administrating realtime privilege
<xequence> I was working on that part today
<OvenWerks> Ok
<xequence> I used to have a script with it that checked the system at boot as well
<xequence> and notified if something was not right
<OvenWerks> That was the two things I ran across while installing our stuff on top of stock fresh xubuntu
<xequence> like realitme privilege - then tell the user to use -controls
<xequence> the reason why it's like this is cause Debian has users in audio group
<xequence> so, installing jackd is enough to get rt privilege
<xequence> and we only sync, we don't change
<xequence> in reality, we should have created a new group
<xequence> but, what I'm hearing is that devs dont want that
<xequence> they'd rather quit using groups all together
<xequence> and another solution is rt-kit
<OvenWerks> Our preseed file suggests using polkit
<OvenWerks> "jack is not PolicyKit aware yet"
<xequence> I don't know the details. All I know is we need to fix this before 14.04
<OvenWerks> The thing is we don't want root access.
<OvenWerks> polkit may allow group access though.
<OvenWerks> we could add a policykit action in our settings though.
<xequence> HOw would that work?
<OvenWerks> Not sure.
<OvenWerks> normally things that use polkit that are not polkit aware have to be run pkexec appname
<OvenWerks> That would be dbus painful.
<xequence> For now, -controls will be an indicator app with a menu. Two lauchers - system settings (individual app, called ubuntustudio-system-settings), and ubuntustudio-installer, and maybe "exit". 
<xequence> We should look through all the possibilies for that next cycle, choose one that works, and push for it
<OvenWerks> That will work.
<xequence> about realtime privilege, my last comment
<xequence> I'll want for Debian and Ubuntu to use the same system too
<OvenWerks> That would be best I agree
<OvenWerks> even better if we can make jackd devs happy too.
<xequence> mm :P
<xequence> seems like there's one jack for every jack dev these days
<OvenWerks> LOL
<xequence> would be good to get them to agree too, yes
<OvenWerks> I would think we only need to worry about jackd2 though
<OvenWerks> I don't think jackd1 does dbus.
<xequence> no, it doesn't
<OvenWerks> we don't ship it anyway. (he said dissmissively)
<xequence> jackd1 can have the old way. both don't need to use the same system for rt
<OvenWerks> on another topic, our iso is not building again.
<OvenWerks> the libav-extras agian.
<OvenWerks> cups-filters : Conflicts: ghostscript-cups I can't figure, one is a dep of the other
<xequence> HOw is that related to libav?
<OvenWerks> Its the odd one out
<OvenWerks> The rest are libav
<xequence> seems like -extra packages confilct with non extra packages
<xequence> OvenWerks: I think there are newer versions in -proposed
<xequence> let me check
<xequence> OvenWerks: Yep, newer libav is in -proposed
<micahg> if no one beats me to it, I'll upload a new libav-extra tonright
<micahg> *tonight
<OvenWerks> micahg: thanks, Anything I need to do for installer?
<micahg> no, I think I'm good now, just close the needs packaging bug in the changelog if it's not done already
<OvenWerks> Ok, should I set it to saucy as well or do you do that?
<OvenWerks> micahg: ^^
<micahg> nah, let me do that after I test it one more time
<micahg> that part is just something to keep in mind when you get upload rights :)
<micahg> or making debdiffs
<xequence> micahg: I'm about to totally rewrite code for a package - ubuntustudio-controls. Since it's a total rewrite, I'm thinking I just change it with one commit. Any thoughts?
<micahg> xequence: well, if it's total, sure
<micahg> if there are logical pieces to it, I would suggest doing those as individual commits
<xequence> micahg: there will be two individual applications, each with their own desktop file
<xequence> most of it will be python/GTK
<micahg> xequence: I'd wipe out the old stuff and add each application with its contents separately if it's not too much work
<OvenWerks> micahg: bugfix changelog entry commited and pushed
<xequence> micahg: ok
<OvenWerks> micahg: original bug marked fix commited. I guess the rellease will auto close the bug.
<micahg> yeah
<OvenWerks> xequence: icon names. Our desktop menu icons are all applications-category.png, can I rename the bunch in -menu (bad as they are) to ubuntustudio-*.*?
<OvenWerks> That way I can work on fixing the desktop files.
<OvenWerks> and directory files
<OvenWerks> Then I can get -menu released in time for FF.
<OvenWerks> Artwork freeze is later
<OvenWerks> After that I have to redo settings to use all this stuff.
<xequence> OvenWerks: Sure.
<OvenWerks> xequence: I will work on that next
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-16
<smartboyhw> Good afternoon zequence 
<smartboyhw> And xequence 
<smartboyhw> How are you at debconf?
<smartboyhw> Damn, I missed the appearence of ScottL:(
 * smartboyhw mutters...
<xequence> Just attended the Debian Multimedia meeting (BoF)
<cub> xequence, cool! any news to share right of the bat?
<xequence> cub: Not much. I got a grasp of how Blends work in Debian
<xequence> currently, the Debian Multimedi blend is not so much of a Blend team, more of a packaging team
<xequence> my two goals will be to create a live image of the blend, and also set up a website for it
<xequence> They have a bunch of tasks/meta packages for installing stuff
<xequence> but thay aren't a part of our repos
<xequence> One idea I have is that we would move some source to Debian, and work from there
<xequence> But, that's just an idea so far
<cub> Sounds interesting.
<cub> Right, should I open a bug report because the xfce keyboard shortcut ctrl+alt+t doesn't open the terminal in US?
<cub> saucy that is. Well it doesn't work in 13.04 either but ...
<xequence> cub: Same on Xubuntu?
<xequence> you could ask them about it, maybe there's a reason for it
<cub> No it works in xubuntu
<cub> which makes no sense. Since then it should work in US too, right?
<cub> I know xfce change a lot before because of the printscreen, but it shouldn't affect this shortcut
<cub> will investigate further with my xubuntu vbox
<cub> right now I'm trying out Jono's instruction to run xmir on US 13.10
<knome> xequence, cub: we've (re)added the shortcut ctrl+alt+T in 13.10
<cub> aha, knome why was it changed before?
<knome> cub, changed from what?
<cub> why was it removed?
<knome> i don't know if we ever had it before
 * cub wonders why xmir work fine with xubuntu but fails on ubuntu studio
<knome> we revamped the shortcuts before, and it might or might not have been removed then
<cub> knome, I think I used it with xubuntu before but then again, I could remember wrong and added it myself.
<smartboyhw> xequence, hey, how's Debconf? And I missed ScottL yesterday right? :(
<cub> Note: xmir only failed on US 13.10 login screen. After login it seems to work just fine. Didn't watch any movies or so, but surfing and reading PDFs no problem.
<smartboyhw> cub, login screen? mmm
<cub> it's that not what is called?
<smartboyhw> cub, I mean, mmm that it failed there:P
<cub> strange though since it worked with he xubuntu saucy
<smartboyhw> cub, :O
<cub> but that was yesteday. A lot of things can have happened since then!
<smartboyhw> lol
<xequence> smartboyhw: Yes, Scott dropped by yesterday
<xequence> I was on the Debian Multimeda meeting, regarding creating a blend today
<xequence> I got some insight into the problems therein
<xequence> so, I'll be starting to work on that later on
<cub> what kind of problems?
<xequence> not sure when, maybe not fully until next year when we release 14.04
<xequence> someone needs to figure out how to put up a website for it, and where
<xequence> someone needs to figure out how to build the image, and how to publish it
<xequence> things like that
<smartboyhw> xequence, you should set up a wiki firstï¼P
<cub> the first part seems simple enough. The second one, i suppose you got that covered? :D
<xequence> The best thing is to use debians own resources to as great degree as possible, and there's a lot of documentation out there
<xequence> also, just need to talk with the right people to get help
<cub> pah, website first. Get the word around, then people will look in/after wiki.
<cub> xequence, how many people are in the team?
<xequence> cub: quite many, but most of the work is done by a handful of people
<smartboyhw> xequence, including you I suppose?
<xequence> My idea is also to try integrate the work that we do with this blend as much as possible
<xequence> so, we could all join that team really
<xequence> I haven't really gotten started yet. 
<xequence> I might not be the one maintaining most packages, but that's alright. Others can do that. I can work on the abstraction part - the user side of things
<cub> I would have guessed they were a lot more and hardcore coders all of them. Not like, well like me. 
<smartboyhw> xequence, great:)
<xequence> cub: It's basically a packaging team right now. People who know how to build software and how to follow Debian policies
 * smartboyhw should start become active in it someday, damnit
<cub> I suppose. I have just always been a bit intimidated by Debian. Something those "real hackers" use. :P
 * smartboyhw likes Ubuntu sorry:P
<cub> I like the idea of being closer to the source.
 * smartboyhw is horrified at #kubuntu for the number of users having problems..
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I have been using kubuntu pretty solid with very few problems. No show stoppers.
<OvenWerks> xequence: I think you are on the right path.
<OvenWerks> cub: we are based on xfce really. We have not rebased on xubuntu's -settings package since 11.10
<cub> OvenWerks, aha? I heard it pulled from Xubuntu
<OvenWerks> cub: feel free to make changes there
<OvenWerks> no
<OvenWerks> we started from there, but have not kept it synced.
<OvenWerks> when there are only two or three people doing things it is hard.
<OvenWerks> it has been great having more help.
<cub> I hope to when I get more familiar with everything
<OvenWerks> cub: I will be doing a number of changes to the settings package anyway. I would be happy to include any merges you have. Or if you know where the setting goes in your home folder I can probably translate to system default.
<OvenWerks> xequence: I would like to have a postinst command to remove /usr/share/xsessions/xfce.desktop
<cub> OvenWerks, gotta go but will read up later on. 
<OvenWerks> This would be for our ISO only
<OvenWerks> cub: great!
<OvenWerks> xequence: maybe it could be in our preseed.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, heh, that excludes when you install our backports PPA to upgrade to a newer KDE SC version
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I have only used 13.10. It started as a fresh install, but I think by now everything has been upgraded.
<smartboyhw> OvenWerks, 13.10 is smoother:P
<xequence> OvenWerks: Yes, we should remove it. Not sure where it should be done
<OvenWerks> xequence: My thought is that it should be a settings postinst, but should be triggered by a preseed.
<OvenWerks> That way if the settings is installed on it's own it doesn't disturb what the user has.
<holstein> wilee-nilee is the guy i have been trying to get to help us in the main channel
<holstein> xequence and OvenWerks .. or whomever
<OvenWerks> holstein: people have to help of their own free will. More would be nice though :)
<OvenWerks> I think making the live ISOs startup depend heavily on graphics HW is a mistake. It looks nice sure, but for some people broken is just broken.
<OvenWerks> Mostly a little patience is all thats needed, On many of my bootups the monitor goes blank and tells me no signal, but If I just wait for lightdm (and X) to load, it comes back and I can log in.
<TheDrums> xequence: Oh, have you actually tried the liquorix kernel and compared it to -lowlat?
<xequence> TheDrums: No
<xequence> I'm quite aware that realtime kernels outperform linux-lowlatency, if that is what you mean
<cub> xequence, very weird behaviour from my 12.04 installation. I forgot to switch on the wifi and ran apt-get update, and it started asking for Saucy 13.10 cd....any idea how that might have occured? I have not installed 13.10 on this laptop but have downloaded the iso before. Shouldn't mess with my repos though..?
<xequence> cub: check the contents of /etc/apt/sources.list
<holstein> OvenWerks: i asked hiim to just be there and redirect or whatever.. if the channel is dead
<cub> xequence, yup, there is deb: cdrom pointing to 13.10. :D
<xequence> cub: that's weird. Just comment it out, and do sudo apt-get update
<cub> hmm I wonder...I remember running apt-get dist-upgrade because the low-latency was held back all the time....but I thought that was on my other laptop. Perhaps I'm just confused
<xequence> dist-upgrade just does a normal update
<xequence> I'm more inclined to think you put in a saucy CD and did something
<cub> Not that I know of. I have to install on Virtualbox only.
<xequence> cub: doing 'sudo apt-get upgrade' will sometimes not update all your packages. If an update wants to change something on your system, like remove some files, that package will be held back
<xequence> it's like a safe update
<xequence> to do a "normal" update, you do: sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
<xequence> that's the same as using the update manager gui
<cub> Aha that explains why I often had to run the update manager to get newer kernels
<OvenWerks> holstein: sounds good.
<OvenWerks> micahg: don't know if you are still here this afternoon. If you don't see it till later thats ok too. Does lintian complain about: desktop-command-not-in-package if the package in depends is not releassed yet?
<OvenWerks> Anyway, it is only "Certainty: possible" and I know it's ok.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-17
<smartboyhw> xequence, users in #ubuntustudio are complaining about that âLinux about creative humans" should have been "GNU/Linux for creative humans"
<smartboyhw> *"Linux for creative humans"
<smartboyhw> Linux -> GNU/Linux
<xequence> smartboyhw: Which of those do you think looks better as a slogan, and which of those do you think *everyone* understands perfectly?
<smartboyhw> xequence, for me, "Linux for creative humans" is better, but Richard Stallman has called for anonical many times to call it "GNU/Linux"
<xequence> Richard Stallman leaves no room for compromise of any kind
<xequence> Not always a good thing
<xequence> It's probably good when creating programs
<xequence> but, not when dealing with humans
<xequence> I may at times be persuasive about my opinions, for the best of Ubuntu Studio, as my position requires, but that doesn't necessarily mean I make the decisions
<xequence> I'm much for the concept of do-ocracy, meaning the one who does decides
<xequence> So far, the culture of Ubuntu Studio development has meant that the project leader does put his fingers into many things
<smartboyhw> And shall remain
<smartboyhw> Unless we have many members
<smartboyhw> Which, I don't think we will have within 2 years:P
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw_: O personally think using just the word Linux is fine.
<OvenWerks> much of the tools are other tha GNU anyway
<OvenWerks> smartboyhw: I think Linux is correct, I think ubuntu for sure but also much of the Linux and open source comunity do not really think in gnu terms... at least not as narrowly as RS
<xequence> I always try to say GNU/Linux, and make a point of it also when I'm teaching people at Linux, but since Linux is a common term used for GNU/Linux OSs, for a slogan, it's just better to say Linux
<xequence> sorry, when teaching people about Linux
<xequence> "Floss/GNU/Linux/Ubuntu x86 for creative humans"?, naah
<OvenWerks> It does at lease help people to realize it is Linux plus.
<OvenWerks> xequence: it is a relatively easy setting to change the grub line from ubuntu to ubuntustudio. (using kubuntu's style)
<smartboyhw> Ovenwerks: Then implement it:P
<xequence> OvenWerks: Ok. You want to do that?
<OvenWerks> I can, it is just adding a directory with one file in /etc/default.
<OvenWerks> I would like to look farther though as it would be really nice to make lowlatency default rather than the latest generic
<xequence> To have that as default would be good
<OvenWerks> I personally noticed no difference in battery use on my netbook, but at least one user did. Mine is Atom based
<xequence> I'm on atom too
<xequence> right now
<xequence> I don't usually use laptopts
<smartboyhw> Not me
<xequence> doesn't seem like there's a difference, no
<OvenWerks> The atom systems are supposed to have good latency for their speed.
<smartboyhw> I'm in 1st gen i5
<OvenWerks> Can be fanless (my new desktop is very quiet)
<OvenWerks> Even the atom is now 64 bit dual core
<xequence> Because of my interest in mixing and recording, I always make sure to buy silent components
<xequence> big fans or no fans
<xequence> the power supply needs to be silent as well
<xequence> my PC when it's on, you can hardly notice
<xequence> but, I can't record voice in the same room though
<xequence> you can always change the CPU fan for little cost
<xequence> there are cheap graphic cards that are fanless
<xequence> but, the power supply is a problem, if you get the wrong one
<xequence> I always put a bit extra money on that, not for the Watts, but for the noise level
<OvenWerks> I could probably run the PS on the atom with no fan.
<OvenWerks> but it is very quiet anyway
<OvenWerks> I have my desktop(s) in a rack with a door
<xequence> I should do that too
<xequence> put it inside some glass
<OvenWerks> no sound damping but itstill makes a difference
<xequence> glass is a very good sound isolator
<OvenWerks> sort of a thin rock
<OvenWerks> xequence: I may try to make the progress dialog on -installer more verbose.
<OvenWerks> when I use the -y it also does -q silently
<OvenWerks> I am noticing when downloading a big package it just sits for a long time
<OvenWerks> maybe if I do -y -q0
<xequence> OvenWerks: Yeah, I thought about that too. Would make it nicer to look at
<OvenWerks> after release I can file a bug (wishlist)
 * OvenWerks thinks we should use bugs more to keep track of what we are doing
<xequence> OvenWerks: I wouldn't bother with a bug, unless you need to update the package in a stable release
<OvenWerks> seems to work well for extra SW in the menu
<OvenWerks> ok
<xequence> I've been thinking a lot about the LP blueprints the last weeks
<xequence> I think we need to establish simpler forms for them
<xequence> and, when someone is the sole developer on a project, it's not as important, all though always a good thing to use
<xequence> It is imortant that there is some sort of concensus for thing that have the ubuntustudio name in it
<OvenWerks> I don't think any of our projects are sole... maybe controls right now
<xequence> so, basically between the few people who hang out here
<xequence> the plans for -controls have been laid out a long time ago, but not sure how well they are clarified/documented in the blueprints
<OvenWerks> Ya, I think that makes sense
<xequence> I'm not using the blueprints myself right now, which kind of indicates how I feel about them
<OvenWerks> though you may be working on, you have told us what you are doing and trying to get to.
<OvenWerks> I wasn't suesting controls was being done outside of US
<OvenWerks> xubuntu has a new grub
<xequence> OvenWerks: not the default grub? How do you mean?
<OvenWerks> The menu is blue not black
<OvenWerks> there is a "welcome to grub" before that...I don't know if it is new or just revamped
<OvenWerks> (theme)
<OvenWerks> Ga! KDE and Lxde don't like link style desktop files.
<OvenWerks> Our info menu vanished
<xequence> Working on the ubiquity plugins
<xequence> Apparently, all we really need to do is base our plugin on edubuntu
<xequence> but, can't get it to work yet. Trying theirs now
<xequence> we have source for it already, prepared by astraljava, but I don't yet have full grasp on what we need for it
<xequence> I probably need to try on something newer than 12.04. Can't get edubuntu's to work either
<OvenWerks> how are you testing it?
<OvenWerks> what are the differences between edubuntu's live and installed (without adding anything) versions?
<OvenWerks> That is, does their live iso have apps on it that ubiquity lets you choose not to install?
 * OvenWerks is learning about lintian overrides :P
<OvenWerks> micahg: using the link=url method of doing desktop files only works in xfce, it does not work in kde or lxde... not sure about the gnome stuff (inc Unity)
<OvenWerks> micahg: anyway, both ubuntustudio-intaller and ubuntustudio-menu are ready for upload. -menu also passes lintian.
<cub> good evening
<TheDrums> Yes master.
<OvenWerks> cub: good afternoon
<cub> hehe
<OvenWerks> I see our kernels have moved to 3.11
<OvenWerks> exit
<cub> for saucy or earlier?
<OvenWerks> saucy
<cub> alright
<cub> I
<cub> I'm still running mir on this netbook
<OvenWerks> Still updates every day?
<cub> I don't know..will run an update now
<OvenWerks> It's the weekend, so maybe not... though there have been other things.
<OvenWerks> I have been working on our menu and uploading it to my PPA.. so doing upgrades, seem to get other things almost every time.
<Hypnotoad> Mir team is all Canonical, so the channel drops dead at least.
<cub> no new mir, just kernel and some other minor stuff
<OvenWerks> have you tried MIR with lowlatency kernel?
<cub> yes running it since yesterday on my asus eee pc 900
<OvenWerks> does it make any difference? only a worry if it does :)
<cub> just ordinary surfing and office use so far so no audio or other more studio like things
<cub> it's just the login screen that flashes, once logged in I see no difference
<cub> the previous lag is gone
<OvenWerks> Good.
<cub> use about the same resources as before it seems
<OvenWerks> So it seems to biggest hurdle is getting around the idea that X is magical
<cub> yes, and multi monitor
<OvenWerks> I am sure that will come
<cub> oh yeah, might be quite soon
<cub> they seems to have taken in all the comments from the xubuntu team
<OvenWerks> xubuntu has been really good about testing. I don't think it will go far if it is a vanilla only ting
<OvenWerks> besides testing with a made for x desktop covers all the areas unity is not even trying to deal with
<cub> I'd like to have time to do more in depth testing, like editing videos and see if it's any different
<OvenWerks> Those are some of the things that will have to happen before it goes on studio
<cub> but antoher day tomorrow! Better get to bed. :)
<OvenWerks> GN
<cub> Until tomorrow OvenWerks, GN
<OvenWerks> Whatever was done to the kernel from 3.8 to 3.11 my USB audio runs really solid at -p64. It's tube pre with limiter sounds really nice with guitarix. The only xruns were when changing presets.
<OvenWerks> running kubuntu with ubuntustudio metas installed plus LL kernel. no settings changed. 10 year + old P4 single core with 2.5G ram.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-08-18
<micahg> OvenWerks: ACK
<OvenWerks> micahg: thanks
<cub> In the debate of "Linux for creative humans" we could also incorporate the Debian way "Debian, the universal operating system" like "OS for creative humans" but  I suppose the Mac community would complain then. ;)
<cub> which is what the first page on ubuntustudio.org also states.
<cub> hmm maybe not the best approach that the wikipedia page for GNU/Linux redirects to the Linux page. :D
<xequence> OvenWerks: I was doing the testing on the LTS, but need to use saucy instead. Going to install it today
<OvenWerks> xequence: I was noticing that the new saucy kernel 3.11 works really well with my USB audio. -p64 with no xruns. 3.8 I couldn't even start jack at -p64
 * OvenWerks doesn't use USB IFs very often
<xequence> OvenWerks: That's good
<xequence> OvenWerks: I'll work on backporting it for 12.04.4
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-08-13
<OvenWerks> zequence: where would we expect to see the bare ISO for DL? I see the U ISOs are rolling again... DL for testing to see where it is at.
<OvenWerks> (been camping for a bit)
<zequence> OvenWerks: No CD yet. Just the DVD
<OvenWerks> Lots of changes happened while they were not building I guess... 50%
<zequence> OvenWerks: Did you read about ffmpeg coming back to Debian? They are planning to have libav as default, but some applications require ffmpeg.
<zequence> messy
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-08-14
<OvenWerk1> zequence: as a packager, if I had my choice I would tend to favour ffmpeg, but messy yes. It seems to me libav exists because ffmpeg was not wanted in debian... or maybe I am thinking of cdrecord.
<DalekSec> OvenWerk1: There's been an ongoing fight between libav and ffmpeg, not really sure what the differences are at this point because once one adds something, the other is only shortly behind it.  ffmpeg may well be coming back into the archives, but the Debian security team isn't looking after it so still not level playing field.
<DalekSec> But yes, to sum up: It's a mess, libav seems to be the preferred one in Debian based distros.
<OvenWerk1> DalekSec: yes, but the application authors seem to differ.
<zequence> Is it that time already?
<zequence> Debian Import Freeze is in effect
<zequence> Time to start wrapping things up.
<zequence> I will finish -controls so that it can be SRU:ed. Also, sync our seeds with Xubuntu, and update our metas during the week
<zequence> Other than that, I'll probably only write a couple of test cases
<zequence> Continuous development of -controls will have to wait on my part. This autumn will be crazy busy for me.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-08-15
<OvenWerk1> zequence: I have been testing running jackdbus from session start and using it as a back end for pulse. The only problem I have had so far is that if jackdbus crashes and a smart jack program is open, it imediately starts jackd. This breaks everything.
<OvenWerk1> I am not, at this point sugesting we use jackdbus this way, but would like to point out that this is a problem with the way jackd2 is packaged.
<OvenWerk1> jackdbus should be a separate package. I would suggest it come with a script called jackd  ;)  that acts as a wrapper for jackdbus.
<OvenWerk1> I think this is a bug. I will have to bug the debian package. This is one of the things that causes people problems as even if they start jack from qjackctl at login, if something crashes jack (yes I have found some things) then jackd gets started without the user knowing. This is just bad.
<zequence> OvenWerk1: I have suggested to Debian multimedia maintainers to separate jackd from jackdbus, and make them conflict with each other. They didn't like that
<zequence> Or, at least one person didn't like that
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-08-16
<zequence> cub: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianDay/2014#DebianDay.2F2014.2FSweden.2FStockholm.Sweden:_Stockholm
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-10
<zequence> bug1473952
<zequence> bug 1473952
<ubottu> bug 1473952 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "Choose preferred pinentry method" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1473952
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-11
<zequence> xubuntu went with the gtk2 variant, so I think we should also (bug above)
<astraljava> Agreed.
<OvenWerks> I wonder if using xubuntu's desktop file from seeds would do this for us.
<astraljava> Should, but are we not dropping/exchanging anything from it for our own?
<OvenWerks> astraljava: not really, we use other than just a desktop seed already and our settings seed pretty much has any differences in it.
<OvenWerks> astraljava: there may be some tools that we add in our desktop, but we probably don't need to.
<OvenWerks> astraljava: I have installed Studio apps + menu direct to Xubuntu with no noticable difference. We would only have to make some of our packages "Replaces" the Xubuntu equivalent... the less the better. I think we could accept font choices and style choices. settings covers backdrops/menu/session setup.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-08-12
<astraljava> OvenWerks: Ok, I'm out of the loop pretty bad, should have a look one of these days to catch up again.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-15
<sakrecoer> i'm looking into pushing the custom version of numix, numix-blue, to a new branch in ~ubuntustudio-look but i am mighty rusty on this.
<sakrecoer> so i did "bzr branch lp:ubuntustudio-look"
<sakrecoer> but i want the theme to be a spearate branch...
<sakrecoer> if i do this "bzr push lp:~sakrecoer/ubuntustudio-look/ubuntustudio-look" and ask for a merge, the theme will just be a in a subfolder of ubuntustudio-look
<sakrecoer> could i do bzr push lp:~sakrecoer/ubuntustudio-look/ubuntustudio-look/numix-theme-blue ?
<sakrecoer> or better yet bzr lp:~ubuntustudio-look/numix-theme-blue
<sakrecoer> i've been told i can, but i am affraid i have missunderstood something..
<sakrecoer> because i don't want the 'usr' and 'po' folders from ubuntustudio-look/trunk to be in the theme branch
<sakrecoer> greetings DalekSec ! o/
<sakrecoer> maybe you can help me clarify my bzr-noob dilema? :)
<sakrecoer> zequence, OvenWerks ?
<DalekSec> Howdy.
<sakrecoer> haj! :)
<sakrecoer> my dilema is awfully nooby, DalekSec.
<sakrecoer> i'm hesitant as to how and where to push the numix-blue-theme branch
<sakrecoer> i asked on the list too, lets see... :) i have to log off for tonight. read ya tomorrow.
<sakrecoer> but basicaly the question is, if i put the numix-theme in the folder i get when i do: 'bzr branch lp:ubuntustudio-look'
<sakrecoer> if i push it back with 'bzr lp:~ubuntustudio-look/numix-theme-blue' will i get a new branch, and will that branch not contain the 'usr' and 'po' folders from the trunk?
<sakrecoer> do i need to fiddle with debian/changelog and figure a version number?...
<sakrecoer> anyways, at this point in time, my brain is useless, so with a little luck, i'll read you tomorrow :) g'night o/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-16
<OvenWerks> for those who can do backports... Ardour 5.0 has hit debian.
<autumna> hi ovenwerks!
<OvenWerks> hi.
<sakrecoer> hi OvenWerks ! good news! :)
<autumna> :D
<sakrecoer> nice news features!
<sakrecoer> https://community.ardour.org/node/13842
<OvenWerks> Ardour 5 is very different than 4.7. The session file format changes. (5 can load 4.7 files, 4.7 can not deal with 5.0 files)
<sakrecoer> that's good!
<sakrecoer> easy sidechain, midi-busses, OSC... \o/
<autumna> Lua scripting!
<OvenWerks> OSC surface control is completely different... but much expanded.
<sakrecoer> wow... i wonder if we can have that in before feature freeze... :p
<autumna> what is needed to make it happen?
<sakrecoer> not very clear to me yet... but i think it needs to be in the seeds...
<sakrecoer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureFreeze
<sakrecoer> if i read this correctly, it will be synced, since we are still prior to FF https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages#Requesting_a_new_package_for_Ubuntu
<sakrecoer> wait... FF and DIF
<sakrecoer> oh, its the same day... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseSchedule
<sakrecoer> tomorrow that is...
<sakrecoer> i guess i should poke Ross about it..
<zequence> I will be doing uploads of all packages that have changes in them today
<zequence> Has anything else changed apart from the seeds?
<zequence> I could also wait until tomorrow evening, if someone wants to poke around with a package still-
<zequence> If ardour5 is in Debian unstable, it is possible to do a sync request
<zequence> ..after FF, that is. Otherwise it should be imported automatically before Debian Import Freeze
<sakrecoer> zequence: we are looking into changing the default-settings
<zequence> sakrecoer: What are you going to change?
<sakrecoer> the theme
<sakrecoer> from greybird to numix
<zequence> That can be done even after FF. But, I would suggest fixing the colors before doing that
<zequence> Theming would fall under the UI Freeze category
<zequence> sakrecoer: So, nothing else than seeds yet?
<sakrecoer> cool! thank you! good to know, because we are working on packaging the blue version, so it will not be ready tomorrow indeed...
<sakrecoer> not that i can think of right now...
<sakrecoer> zequence ^
<zequence> Ok. I'll put up a new meta today then.
<sakrecoer> zequence: maybe ou can shoot a mail to the list, so ross can have a chance to react?
<zequence> Poke me whenever you need a change fixed. Last cycle we waited much too long with changes, but it was an LTS. This time there's no reasonable reason to hurry.
<zequence> If Ross would like to change something, I'm sure he would have done it already
<sakrecoer> cool! thank you very much zequence ! :)
 * autumna catches up to log after dinner
<autumna> yay (and hi zequence)
<zequence> autumna: hi
<zequence> Anyone tried snaps yet?
<zequence> Would seem like ardour might be suitable as a snap.
<autumna> zequence: why would ardour be suitable as a snap compared to another package? (asking to understand better)
<zequence> It would be simpler to update it to the most recent version - all though I would not like to have ardour4 be replaced with ardour5. I'd rather have them installed in paralell, and that would also be possible with snaps
<autumna> ah.. 
<autumna> so this is in theory true for software packages? (e.g. krita, blender, etc)?
<zequence> Yes, all of them might be easier to maintain as snaps
<zequence> There's still a problem with drivers though, as far as graphics go, I think.
<autumna> I see
<autumna> so audio packages are a go, but wait on anything graphics and video, that uses.. is it just the graphic cards, or is there issues with other drivers too?
<zequence> Think there was an issue with Blender. Something with openGL libs
<autumna> *nods*
<autumna> which would rule out Krita, blender, and processing too if I ever got to that
<autumna> and possibly several other programs
<zequence> You can find snaps with: snap find <package>
<autumna> (krita has a snap package, but I feel like i read somewhere it too had issues? I might be wrong through)
<autumna> I am fairly certain processing and p5.js was never packaged through. p5.js editor just came out for one thing
<autumna> (just came out for linux)
<zequence> Heh, someone just updated ubuntustudio-meta
<autumna> :)))
<zequence> It was infinity, the release manager, a Canonical employee
<OvenWerks> I agree that installing Ardour 4 and 5 in parallel would be a good choice.
<zequence> Apparently infinity was poking with seeds for many flavors, and decided to update them all.
<autumna> :D
<autumna> sakrecoer, do you think it is enough to give 1 week for final review of the website content before we declare it finished? 
<autumna> this is after all the pages are complete
<zequence> Major spamming on the staging site. 922 comments so far
<zequence> Closing commenting.
<zequence> Mail box got kind of full these past two days. Hadn't checked it for a while.
<sakrecoer> autumna: a week from now? maybe yes, it depends on how available everyone is. but then we have to migrate it too... not too sure how that will work, but i guess we weill figure it out.
<autumna> a week only for the review
<autumna> as for migration, I am hoping to have a final set of plugins (we are missing a security plugin at the moment, unless the real site has something that isn't on the stage)
<autumna> we can put the ticket in
<autumna> for that
<autumna> then review the content, after that either migrate
<autumna> I mean those two can happen at same time
<autumna> I'd really deploy the site before the release rush hits through
<sakrecoer> either migrate, or...?
<autumna> oh either migrate or give an extra week or two of user feedback
<autumna> as "beta site"
<sakrecoer> that would be a good idea. it's probably wise also to do as you say: deploy before release
<autumna> please!
<autumna> :D
<autumna> so yes, I mean if we can finish our internal review and deploying of the plugins etc by end of august
<autumna> that gives us maybe 2 weeks to calmly get feedback and deploy it to main?
<sakrecoer> sounds fair..
<autumna> *nods*
<autumna> I mean as I said I am not certain we have logistics in place to do a beta open to public
<autumna> but it is something to consider
<autumna> anyhow I think when I finish the download page the site will be done
<autumna> footer, check
<autumna> social media links, check
<autumna> merchandise page, check
<autumna> artpage will come later.
<autumna> oh we need to draft the forum post requesting images, so that I can uncomment the relevant bit in "contribute" section
<autumna> sorry I am mostly thinking out loud
<autumna> I'll email the mailing list later tonight
<sakrecoer> thinking out loud is good (nice even), email the list is best so everyone can be in on it :)
<autumna> will do when download page is done
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-17
<trebmuh> hi guys
<trebmuh> you've got an issue with the ardour 5 package
<trebmuh> this very same issue : https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=834488
<ubottu> Debian bug 834488 in ardour,ardour-data "ardour-data and ardour: error when trying to install together" [Serious,Open]
<trebmuh> hope that helps
<zequence> trebmuh: Thanks. Hopefully it is fixed in Debian soon, and soon as it is, we need to sync with them
<zequence> trebmuh: Did you report that bug?
<zequence> If so, and you also use Ubuntu, could you please report it for Ubuntu as well?
<zequence> Ah, damn. ardour5 is the package causing the build failure
<trebmuh> no I'm not using ubuntu
<trebmuh> zequence, that's just a matter of 2 lines changes in the debian/ardour.install file
<trebmuh> ie : you just have to replace:
<trebmuh> debian/tmp/usr/*
<trebmuh> by:
<trebmuh> debian/tmp/usr/bin/ardour*
<trebmuh> debian/tmp/usr/lib/*
<trebmuh> and you're good to go
<zequence> trebmuh: Thanks. I will have a look and see about fixing that today
<trebmuh> that's what I've been doing for LibraZiK
<trebmuh> zequence, no worries, hope that helps
<zequence> I can change the code, but I can't upload in Debian.
<trebmuh> zequence, if I can suggest something as rgareus said on #ardour : "grabbing debian/sid and *directly* publishing it sound like a recipe for disaster."
<trebmuh> that will be fixed in debian anytime soon, I'm sure
<zequence> trebmuh: That suggestion is better put to Canonical, or the whole of Ubuntu community
<zequence> And, rgareus is just sharing his opinion without actually knowing what it means.
<zequence> He's a good coder, but he likes to be anti-Ubuntu, though he has never used it
<trebmuh> indeed, but I'm not using ubuntu :) Just passing on you this bug report which just happened on #ardour in the hope it can be useful to you and the ubuntustudio users. I really hope that can help, specificaly just before your coming soon freeze/etc..
<zequence> If he wants to suggest something for Ubuntu development, he should take part in it
<zequence> Bugs can be fixed anytime. The freeze is only for changes.
<OvenWerks> zequence: so it looks like debian separates the ardour package into two. I am not sure why, but that seems to be the problem.
<OvenWerks> zequence: The files in the packages look like a set of files that have moved for 5.0 to a different location.
<OvenWerks> this would indicate that the script debian uses to create the packages has not been modified to the new position.
<OvenWerks> zequence: Robin as you say has had so many problems from Ubuntu users (mostly vanilla I might add) that both he and Paul consider Ubuntu the worst dist for audio.
<OvenWerks> zequence: however, his comments about US are annoying. He keeps (even after being corrected) paroting the line US is UB with extra packages. and no system set up.
<OvenWerks> zequence: it shows a missunderstanding of packaging and ditro building in general. One could also say exactly the same thing kxstudio or avlinux which they recommend.
<OvenWerks> zequence: obviously any system changes would be in the form of a package.
<trebmuh> OvenWerks, re: ardour5 package : i think what happened is debian want to switch to a one-only package named "ardour" instead of one "ardour" package and one "ardour-data" package, but did forget to remove the ardour-data.install file
<trebmuh> s/i think/i guess/
<OvenWerks> trebmuh: that would be a great move.
<trebmuh> maybe, yes
 * OvenWerks would like to see libjack-jackd2-dev included in jackd2
<trebmuh> why so ?
<OvenWerks> trebmuh: too many people who want to build something that requires libjack just look for libjack-dev which installs jackd1 and uninstalls any audio project that depends on jacdk2.
<OvenWerks> libjack-dev should point to the default jackd dev files
<OvenWerks> but it does not.
<zequence> It's actually worse than that. If you do a 'apt-get build-dep' for any package that requires audio, you will get libjack-dev, if the jackd2 variant is not installed
<zequence> ..for any package that requires jack dev files, I mean, of course
<trebmuh> OvenWerks, mm, yes, make sense
 * zequence is installing yakkety just in order to be able to make the bug report
<trebmuh> has it been reported to the debian BTS ?
<zequence> The libjack-dev one? Not sure. I think the actual problem might be that libjack-dev depends on jackd1 and not jackd1|jackd2
<zequence> Or, why does it bring jackd1 in at all?
<zequence> Ah, right. Can't install the thing even
<zequence> sakrecoer: You reported a bug about that some time ago, did you not? Installer crash when trying to install Ubuntu Studio?
<zequence> I'm reporting the bug in Ubuntu Studio LP page. Then, I'll remove ardour from our meta. That's all I have time for today.
<zequence> Bug 1614224
<ubottu> bug 1614224 in ardour (Ubuntu) "ardour (v5) uninstallable, and causes Ubuntu Studio build failure" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1614224
<zequence> Haven't tried installing yakkety on a real machine yet, so could be a VB problem
<zequence> debootstrap is too old on xenial, so now I need to install another yakkety. Going for the mini ISO
<zequence> 3h later, all I've been able to do is report a bug..
<OvenWerks> For those interested, I would suggest for back ports for US 14.04/16.04 to _not_backport Ardour 5.0  but to wait for 5.1 or 5.2 (5.1 may be skipped) Ardour 5.0 itself works quite well, but one of the LV2 plugins included (a-reverb) has an audible bug (since fixed)
<zequence> Has the previous backport landed yet?
<zequence> Think snaps is probably a smarter way to "backport".
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am not sure, my backports seems to list it, but it may be the test? how do I check?
<OvenWerks> synaptic says I have 4.7
<OvenWerks> but it is a version with a ~ppa1 on the back end.
<OvenWerks> would it get replaced by a backport if it was in zenial-backports?
<OvenWerks> *xenial
<OvenWerks> xenial-backports is enabled on my system.
<zequence> There are exactly three packages in xenial backports for amd64 so far
<zequence> ardour is not amongst them
<zequence> archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/xenial-backports/universe/binary-amd64/Packages.gz
<zequence> xenial universe backports, to be more precise
<zequence> Think that also explains why it may be difficult to get one through
<zequence> Not a big prio, since there are so few
<zequence> Finally able to at least do an update to the meta. Will upload as soon as it finish, and that should fix the build error.
<zequence> Would be nice to get ardour fixed before Beta 1
<OvenWerks> zequence: yes.
<zequence> Ardour 5 does seem like perhaps the most important update so far
<zequence> ..for ardour, that is
<zequence> Many, many new nice changes.
 * zequence is looking forward to trying it out
<zequence> New meta is up. I might have some time tomorrow again. Adios for now.
<OvenWerks> see you later.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-18
<sakrecoer> zequence: my installer crash bug also hapened with xubuntu so i don't think it was related to ardour.
<zequence> sakrecoer: No, of course not. There's no ISO with ardour5
<zequence> But, as I was trying to install the system to be able to update ardour and see the failure for myself, I realized installing Studio was not possible
<zequence> The ISO should build today, without ardour (since I have removed it temporarily)
<zequence> But, probably it will be uninstallable
<sakrecoer> zequence: ok.. i didn't think of ardour 5 specifically, just mentioning that installing yakkety failed for me with both ubuntustudi iso and xubuntu iso, sam error...
<sakrecoer> both had a weird issue with the DE: no buttons, checkboxes, radio buttons etc...
<zequence> Well, it's good to know that it's a generic problem and therefore more eyes will be on it.
<sakrecoer> :) yes
<sakrecoer> i'm also really looking forward to the beta1 i must add
<sakrecoer> which reminds me i need to confirm our participation to the release team...
<zequence> I'm test building ardour with trebmuh's suggested change
<zequence> If it's ok, I'll push it to Debian
<zequence> (to the git repo, that is - someone else will need to upload)
<trebmuh> zequence, you're a DM ?
<trebmuh> (or a DD ?)
<zequence> trebmuh: Debian Multimedia member. But, I only have upload rights to the git repos
<zequence> Or, push rights that is. I can't create new repos
<zequence> Ross is also a member.
<zequence> So, technically, we do have some ability to make changes. Ross has been a lot more active on that end. I've probably only done one or two commits in a few years time.
<zequence> I hardly have learned how the repos are set up, but there seems to be better docs now, and I've even found a new tool  - gbp
<zequence> git commit && gbp buildpackage
<zequence> Simple enough
<zequence> Now my Atom CPU is suffering through the build..
<trebmuh> ok
<zequence> Actually, the Debian maint-guide is not bad, and the Policy docs are all there, and have been for a while, so there's plenty of docs for those who want to educate themselves on packaging.
 * zequence will read those some day
<trebmuh> I'm adding a +1 on that, those docs are really good, I learnt a lot from these
 * zequence really should start using pbuilder on the 8-core instead. 1h 15min so far. If the builds fail, it will lead to tears.
<zequence> Still building. Getting ridiculous. Will have to continue tomorrow.
<zequence> Hehe, I typed the ardour.install file. Need to do it again. Oh, well. It can do it over night.
<zequence> typoed*
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-19
<zequence> Ok, the build worked. I pushed the fix to Debian
<zequence> OvenWerks: I'm uploading the source for ardour to our dev-testing ppa. So, ppa:ubuntustudio-dev/dev-testing
<zequence> Would be good to test it for other errors. I only made sure it started pretty much, but I think the desktop files are not updated yet, and there may be other things as well
<zequence> Will notify the mail list, once the build is finished, so hopefully we can catch all the major problems before next week
<zequence> OvenWerks: Did you hear falktx is going to take over maintenance of jack1 from las?
<zequence> trebmuh: Thanks for the bugfix tip. Though self evident, also spared me a bit of time. But, I'm sure there are other problems. Not sure yet, but the desktop file probably needs to be updated
<zequence> The package doesn't seem fully ready to be released IMO. Shouldn't be up in unstable in this state
<trebmuh> zequence, no worries, glad it helped
<trebmuh> zequence, what doesn't sound good for you in the desktop file ?
<trebmuh> https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pkg-multimedia/ardour.git/tree/debian/ardour.desktop
<zequence> trebmuh: Yes, that looks alright. I didn't get one after my install on Debian, and was a little surprised by the binary being called ardour5
<zequence> Could be there are other problems. I quickly checked plugins and that seemed to work as it did on ardour4.
<zequence> I mean, I probably got the desktop file (but I never checked the dir, which I should have done). Didn't appear in the menu (which is another problem)
<zequence> It has happened before with ardour specifically that the desktop file was not done right (early ardour3, I think)
<OvenWerks> zequence: I was aware falktx was going to become new jackd1 maintainer yes. Jackd1 will probably get dbus added to it shortly. (this would indicate to me that Cadence will be able to control it)
<OvenWerks> zequence: ppa:ubuntustudio-dev/dev-testing is that for x or y? (do I need to install a Y iso to test?
<zequence> OvenWerks: I uploaded both y and x to that ppa. Was not sure that x would build, but it seems it was fine.
<zequence> Hopefully jack1 will make jack2 obsolete and we only need one jack
<zequence> Good move by las in the end, I think.
<zequence> Well, of course, remains to be seen. But, one can be hopeful.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I saw the email, I will test today.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I guess it looks alright. It's the plugin you mentioned that had a bug then.
<zequence> If 5.1 appears in Debian in good enough time we could do a sync-request
<OvenWerks> zequence: That shouldn't have kept it from building running, just sounds bad. In a stereo use the tail went to one side and the early reflections to the other
<zequence> Ok. Good to know. If 5.1 is not synced I may do a patch for it, if no one else beats me to it.
<OvenWerks> zequence: 5.1 may come quite quick (it may be 5.2 to avoid confusion that it supports 5.1 surround (which it does not on it's without plugins)
<zequence> Oh, right
<OvenWerks> s/it's/it's own/
<zequence> Another build failure, but this time it's libwebkitgtk-1.0-0 causing it. One would hope it is fixed by tomorrow.
<zequence> Or, at least very soon.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-20
<OvenWerks> zequence: with regard to wine... it is too late for 16.10, but we could try adding it to 17.04 as soon as the ISOs start building to see if the ISOs will build with dual arch libs. It may be a ISO build setting is required. I do not know how large the libs are though.
<OvenWerks> zequence: The other issue with installing wine, even on 32 bit systems, is that it does replace some of the video driver software as well. This may take a system that just works and give a system that just won't work.
 * OvenWerks found out about this installing wine on his son's computer
<OvenWerks> zequence: my other concern is that people will use wine as a first solution rather than looking at native software first and then complain if it doesn't work.
<OvenWerks> zequence: it seems that the ppa version of Ardour5.0 is missing some file. It crashes on startup. When I tried it strait up (with a config directory already created) it crashed with core dump. So I got rid of the config directory and tried again. I get http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/US-Ardour5-fail.png
<OvenWerks> zequence: it seems that there is a whole other data package missing too.
<OvenWerks> This is testing on 16.04
 * OvenWerks is downgrading to the original.
<OvenWerks> zequence: could be that synaptic does not install snaps
<OvenWerks> retrying with SW update.
<OvenWerks> zequence: it seems that the updater installs the data package as a snap (maybe the binary too) using apt tools does not install correctly.
<OvenWerks> Ardour5.0 works for me on 16.04 if installed using the GUI tools
<OvenWerks> this could be a problem with using snap type packages
<OvenWerks>  There are a lot of "old hands" that just out of habbit use apt-get for everything.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Check if the file is there, in /usr/share/ardour5/icons/zoom_in_cursor.png
<zequence> Also, there should be no snaps involved. 
<zequence> In fact, remove all ardour packages first, then install from the PPA.
<zequence> OvenWerks: You're right. ardour-data is missing. Which is weird, cause it is built from the same source package
 * zequence scratches head
<zequence> ardour-data basically includes all files in /usr/share/ardour
<zequence> Or, /usr/share/ardour5, rather
<zequence> Building locally works fine, but for some reason the -data package is not built in the PPA
<DalekSec> Link?
<zequence> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/+archive/ubuntu/dev-testing
<zequence> I rebuilt the source, this time without basing on the previous version (but don't think it makes any difference). And, dputted it
<zequence> No, wait
<zequence> DalekSec: It is there. I'm just being rusty
<zequence> OvenWerks: Not sure how you managed to not install ardour-data, but try again. It is the PPA
<OvenWerks> zequence: when I use the GUI "Software Updaer" it works.
<DalekSec> Yeah I was about to look in the archive itself as it looked there.
<zequence> OvenWerks: How did you install the first time?
<OvenWerks> zequence: I started it, created a new session and checked that I could run audio through.
<OvenWerks> zequence: I added the PPA apt-get updated and used synaptic to look for it and installed ardour-i686.. which depends on ardour. I think what I needed to do was upgrade. I am looking now and I am probably seeing "Installed version" was 4.7 and going "I don't want that"
<OvenWerks> zequence: So maybe my mistake. I did, however, see the word snap somewhere. (in the sofware updater I think)
<zequence> Strange
<OvenWerks> zequence: so if I had do atp-get update; atp-get upgrade or dist-upgrade it should have worked.
<zequence> So many package managers now..
<zequence> Yes, that should have done it
<zequence> (if ardour was already installed)
<OvenWerks> zequence: I wonder if ardour-i686 depends on ardour5.0 or just ardour
<zequence> There's no package named ardour5. ardouri686 is a transitional package only
<zequence> So, ardour-i686 will install ardour (the 32bit one)
<OvenWerks> ardour-i686 shouold depend on the 5.0 version of ardour.
<OvenWerks> zequence: it just depends on ardour
<zequence> There's only one version at the time now
<zequence> The package for ardour5 is named ardour
<zequence> It was decided that there would only be one ardour since only the latest version is being maintained upstream.
<OvenWerks> zequence: Yes, but depends can be version specific. ardour-i686 is not.
<zequence> Well, it doesn't need to be, I guess
<OvenWerks> That is fine if there is no ardour already in the machine, not if there is.
<zequence> sakrecoer: I changed the ubuntustudio-dev team to "restricted", so those phony accounts can't ask to join anymore. Invites only.
<OvenWerks> on the other hand if I had gone slower and read the description in synaptic ... it would have been better too.
<zequence> OvenWerks: You're forgetting that you still need to upgrade.
<zequence> ..if you already have ardour, that is
<zequence> But, you mean installing ardour-i686 installed the new version of ardour, but not the new version of ardour-data?
<OvenWerks> yes, it is certainly my mix up in installing.
 * DalekSec wonders what the deps look like.
<OvenWerks> DalekSec: for what?
<OvenWerks> (which package in particular)
<DalekSec> ardour.
<OvenWerks> for ardour-i686 it is just straight ardour with no version.
<OvenWerks> for ardour it looks for ardour-data (again no version info.
<OvenWerks> then all the libs
<OvenWerks> DalekSec: ardour depends on libcwiid1 I am not sure wiimote stuff works anymore because bluetooth stuff blocks it now. That part has not been kept up and I have not been able to get it to work.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-08-21
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks, zequence, Rosco2 : thanks for your hardwork on ardour and with the iso. i've been quiet because i don't know how to help. but if there is anything i can do to make it easier for you, just let me know
<sakrecoer> it looks like i will be the falvour cyberspider for the beta1 after all, with help from tsimonq2
<sakrecoer> cyberspider == checklist tracking.. had to look up the word..
<sakrecoer> still impossible to install the daily ISO for me... 
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I don't think there has been a new build yet. what is the date on the ISO?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: 19th august... but its been like this since 2016-08-05
<sakrecoer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1610377
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1610377 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Unable to install Daily Build of Ubuntu Studio 16.10" [Undecided,New]
<sakrecoer> the DE looks better now in live-session, but there are still weirdness, such as the scrollbars have no ... dragbar drawn
<sakrecoer> don't get me wrong, i'm not complaining. :) i'm just eager to test :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Currently there's a problem with the gnupg package. I'm guessing whoever is responsible will come back to work on monday, and correct that problem. But, if you like, you could try and find out more before that.
<zequence> Actually, more than that
<zequence> The following packages have unmet dependencies: gnupg1 : Breaks: gnupg (< 1.4.20-6+exp1) but 1.4.20-6ubuntu1 is to be installed kactivitymanagerd : Breaks: kactivities (< 5.20~) but 5.18.0-0ubuntu1 is to be installed
<zequence> kactivitymanagerd aught to be packaged by the Kubuntu team
<zequence> And, about the uninstallable ISO. Any news on that? Perhaps the Xubuntu folks know more.
<sakrecoer> zequence: ok, thanks... i'm affraid its not so much a question of will, rather a lack of skill.. but sure i an ask Xubuntu if they know more.
<sakrecoer> seems the xubuntu daily installs, but they have an issue with the desktop.. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1615341
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1615341 in systemd (Ubuntu) "Yakkety desktop fails to start" [Critical,Fix released]
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: with two different graphics cards, I think xorg has to be hand set... I am not sure. I think it would be easy to set a second X server up on the second monitor though. :P
<OvenWerks> this is beyond my quick and easy know-how. It would be good to look up how to use USB monitors in linux as the procedure would be about the same.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: yes, something along those lines, its beyond my skillset too.. but i'm looking into it atm
<sakrecoer> indeed, usb monitors, i had forgotten they exist, but perhaps its getting common?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: a quick research indicates that most usb monitors require a special driver...
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I didn't get that impression last time I looked... or at least the kernel module seemed to be part of generic at that point.
<OvenWerks> I just remember the xorg config file had to be edited by hand to include the second monitor.
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: http://askubuntu.com/a/662797
<sakrecoer> https://libdlo.freedesktop.org/wiki/DeviceQuirks/
<OvenWerks> The main point is that normally dual monitors have to fit within the graphic adaptors memory size because x treats them as one big monitor (or used to)
<sakrecoer> yeah, probably. the nvidia config interface allows you to create separate X-server for each monitor, but they have to be plugged to the card..
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: here they say "DisplayLink devices on Linux still only have experimental support" and it was last edited on july 2016 https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/DisplayLink
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: but there seem to be some work put on it : http://displaylink.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=29
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I am sure they will be finished just as people stop making display link monitors... Apple has stopped already.
<sakrecoer> :D lol
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: are there non-displaylink screens that go via USB?
<sakrecoer> or is that the name for USB-display in general?
<sakrecoer> my searches tell me "guess no"..
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: there user to be USB display ports
<OvenWerks> https://www.startech.com/ca/AV/USB-Video-Adapters/USB-3-to-Displayport-Video-Card-Multi-Monitor-Adapter-2560x1600~USB32DPPRO
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: http://www.j5create.com/our-products/external-video-adapters/jua210.html
<OvenWerks> http://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=6038
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: the last one even says Linux compatable.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-08-19
<OvenWerks> what is the latest Ardour in debian? (5.11 is released)
<krytarik> !info ardour unstable
<ubottu> ardour (source: ardour): the digital audio workstation. In component main, is optional. Version 1:5.10.0~dfsg-1 (unstable), package size 8967 kB, installed size 34909 kB
<OvenWerks> Thats pretty good then. 5.11 is mostly bug fixes (less crashing) and so would be good to have.
<krytarik> Yeah, just read that - released only 3 days ago.
<OvenWerks> 5.11 is the last 5.* version (unless something really bad shows up) 5.99 will be add to master next week followed by 6.0rc1. 5.99 will not be released, it is an internal only and I think will not even be tagged.
<OvenWerks> there are two (at least) branches waiting for the last mixbus update to release before all that. 6.0 will be a new session file formate and not backwards compatable. Forward may be difficult too. record and playback will be able to be placed in different places in the processor box.
<OvenWerks> midi looping looks to be coming too (play and change at the same time).
<OvenWerks> 6.0 is likely to be at least two monthes away, but likely more.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-13
<Eickmeyer> And now that might not happen as my brain has decided that it is taking the rest of the night off.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I don't seem to be having trouble logging in on cosmic. Am doing an upgrade to see if that affects anything
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Good to know. I downgraded. :(
<OvenWerks> Huh
<OvenWerks> my upgrade is 1185 packages it says
<Eickmeyer> EEk. Well, I did create a separate partition to stick Cosmic on, so there's that.
<OvenWerks> this is a separate partition here for sure
<OvenWerks> very experimental
<OvenWerks> studio with plasma on top.
<OvenWerks> It will be my testing ground for Studio-plasma when the iso starts rolling
<Eickmeyer> Cool.
 * Eickmeyer needs to get to bed
<OvenWerks> Ga, upgrade is still going... I am being asked questions about it.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ok, even after upgrade, cosmic logs in fine (either xfce or plasma)
<OvenWerks> If we can get a studio-plasma iso spun... I will try running that as daily.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-16
<krytarik> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-desktop/2018-August/005402.html - while it seems to be fun speculating about the impact of this change to Xfce without ever talking to its devs or the Xubuntu ones about it, the thread clearly indicates that it's merely about the Mutter window manager - which Xfce nor Xubuntu use by default, but rather its own Xfwm.
<Eickmeyer> krycek: What makes you think I didn't talk to someone from Xubuntu? I got that info from flocculant himself, and he mentioned Xubuntu has had issues with changes in GTK in the past. Please stop assmuming such things.
<krycek> Yes, that is true - but this isn't about GTK+
<OvenWerks> not worth fighting about though. The plan is still to use xfce for now. Plasma is a long way from ready... just barely started in fact.
<OvenWerks> xfce is very common in the audio users world as a replacement for gnome and so far nothng has filled that hole. Not that long ago, plasma was not very nice.
<OvenWerks> eylul: have huion 610pro... son is over the moon :)
<OvenWerks> eylul: requires extra kernel modules... though this is 14.04.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-08-18
<OvenWerks> eylul: with your wacom tablets, did you need to create a /etc/X11/xorg-config.d/ file?
<OvenWerks> anyway, I thnk controls will need to:
<OvenWerks> A) install extra kernel modules if needed (detect if needed would help)
<OvenWerks> B) Allow creation of an xorg-config file if needed.
<OvenWerks> in the case of A, I hope to find that newer kernels already have these modules in which case having a help help that points to  adding modules would be enough.
<OvenWerks> in the case of B, we probably want to write some conig file that is loaded at xorg start anyway.
<eylul> ovenwerks: No I don't remember having to. and yay!
<eylul> but I have been using 16.04 and then 17.04/17.10. Also huion can be a bit different.
<eylul> this is actually a good test case because huion is one of the most used brands outside of wacom.
<eylul> so it is a good thing that controls cover it
<eylul> I'll catch up with the chat fully once I get some sleep, (just arrived from a 15 hour bus-ride :D )
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-12
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: we do not seem to have Ardour 5.12 available as a backport for 16.04.
<OvenWerks> https://discourse.ardour.org/t/i-have-found-this-software-to-be-so-unstable-its-unusable/87322/8
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I suggested upgrading to 18.04 as being the better solution.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes. 16.04 is EOL and we don't support it.
<teward> Eickmeyer: i'll look at raysession tomorrow unless someone else gets to it
<teward> i'm dead tired today >.>
<teward> and leaving early after my 8 hour day i had to pull off hours this weekend
<Eickmeyer> teward: Cool. I want to get this in before FF next Thursday (and first day of my vacation). I doubt anybody else will get to it before you, but if you could get to that ASAP I'd appreciate it. :)
<teward> yep.
<teward> do you have the list of issues vorlon stated with it again?
<teward> *lost the list when his infra exploded this past thursday*
<teward> so I can be thorough :P
<teward> unrelated, COFFEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
<Eickmeyer> The only real issue he mentioned was the copyright issue.
<Eickmeyer> And the overrides, which have been fixed.
<studiobot> <teward001> ack
<Eickmeyer> It wasn't a huge list, teward.
<studiobot> <teward001> i'll review tomorrow
<teward> for now... *goes to coffee up and finish the day then pass out at home*
<Eickmeyer> Ok, get some rest.
<teward> GOOD NEWS is the 8 hours work I pulled this weekend entitles me to adjust my work schedule by 8 hours
<teward> so either a whole day off
<Eickmeyer> NICE!
<teward> or leave early during the day, etc.
<teward> so i get off at 4PM today
<teward> *is leaving an hour earlier today8
<teward> fek i can't type
<Eickmeyer> ERR:TypingNotFound
<studiobot> <teward001> well, regardless
<studiobot> <teward001> `ImportError: No module named 'coffee'`
<studiobot> <teward001> oopsies?
<Eickmeyer> Oof
<studiobot> <teward001> `ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'coffee'`
<studiobot> <teward001> foo
<Eickmeyer> bar
<studiobot> <teward001> `NameError: name 'bar' is not defined`
<teward> `[KERNEL ERROR] lp0 on fire` ... oops something I think is on fire?  :P
<teward> aaaanyways...
<Eickmeyer> LOL
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-08-13
<damianos> Hello errbody
<damianos> I'm primarily a web developer that's been teaching myself gtk3 and rust. I'd like to start hacking on some of the Ubuntu Studio packages and contributing some patches. Not sure where I can find the git repos. Could somebody point me in the right direction please ?
<studiobot> <teward001> *pokes @Eickmeyer*
<Eickmeyer> damianos: Our repos are at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: ERR:NeedCoffee
<damianos> Thank you kindly sir
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: ERR:NotEnoughCoffee â¦ In the process of raising the error, another error was thrown: â¦ ERR:ChaosRisesThisDay
<Eickmeyer> damianos: They're actually spread in several areas on launchpad, but at least they're indext under Code>View Git Repos
<Eickmeyer> *indexed
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: oof
<teward> yup
<damianos> So out of curiosity, are the packages being delivered via snaps yet?
<damianos> Just wondering if that is also something I need to brush up on
<Eickmeyer> damianos: Not any of the ubuntustudio-* packages, which are the only ones we really touch.
<studiobot> <teward001> *sits on Eickmeyer*
<studiobot> <teward001> your package has flaws.  either that or LP Git is busted again
<studiobot> <teward001> probably the second one :P
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> What's broken?
<studiobot> <teward001> git
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Shocker.
<studiobot> <teward001> y'all should run your own git somewhere :P
<studiobot> <teward001> but not phab :P
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I've been considering mirroring to github, but that hasn't been a huge priority.
<studiobot> <teward001> ewwww github
<studiobot> <teward001> Microsoft owns that now
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I have no problem with that. Microsoft drives much of my area's economy.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> So, are we talking something wrong with raysession or what?
<studiobot> <teward001> nah just git
<studiobot> <teward001> can't review package until git is back
<studiobot> <teward001> it's being stupid for me
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I see that. Looks like wgrant posted an issue with it.
<Eickmeyer> teward: So, uh... bummer with your issues then.
<teward> yep
<teward> but that's only while i'm here at work
<teward> i'll be home and pull it later
<teward> i get to leave in 3.5hrs
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Sweet.
<studiobot> dszidi was added by: Eickmeyer
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @dszidi Thischannel is bridged to #ubuntustudio-dev. I encourage you to work with OvenWerks on any UI improvements. Pull Requests are nice. :)
<studiobot> <dszidi> Will do. I will install Ubuntu studio into a VM.  I just reloaded my thinkpad so I have to finish getting up and running with my angular stuff.
<Eickmeyer> Be careful, Ubuntu Studio doesn't play nice in VMs (specifically, the lowlatency kernel).
<studiobot> <dszidi> Well for UI and cosmetic stuff that shouldn't be too big of an issue. At least not in the beginning
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Well, I hope so. The problem is that it typically freezes on boot.
<studiobot> <dszidi> In that case, I have another desktop I can load it onto
<studiobot> <dszidi> Is Carla part of this Ubuntu Studio or is there an upstream project?
<Eickmeyer> There's an upstream project for that, but I'm the package maintainer.
<Eickmeyer> Meaning, I don't touch the code, I just touch everything in the debian directory.
<studiobot> <dszidi> ah, gotcha
<studiobot> <dszidi> So which UIs do we touch then.  Installer and configuration utilities + XFCE?
<Eickmeyer> Really, the only things we really do any development on are ubuntustudio-controls and ubuntustudio-installer. Everything else is upstream.
<Eickmeyer> Though, like I said, we do want to fork Non Session Manager.
<studiobot> <dszidi> Cool
<Eickmeyer> The Xubuntu team mostly handles xfce. We do handle some of the configuration, but right now that's pretty much set.
<studiobot> <dszidi> Got it
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer got the code downloaded now going over the packaging this time
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> ð
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-10
<Eickmeyer> @teward001 Just got home, and I see that. Just bslizr and bchoppr so far. This is what happens when it takes a month to get stuff through the upload queue, and I'm pissed.
<Eickmeyer> BTW, sabdfl knows I'm frustrated too and plans to address it with the distro team.
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: Any idea if it was added to the packageset by any chance?
<Eickmeyer> s/it/they
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 It's a GCC10 problem that's been fixed upstream. Working on it now.
<studiobot> <teward001> ok
<studiobot> <teward001> Eickmeyer: no but DMB can do that once it lands.  prep a fix and I'll upload tomorrow
<studiobot> <teward001> or new version it
<Eickmeyer> @teward001: bchoppr is ready, working on bslizr now. Really, LP sees them both as valid packages just FTBFS.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Case in point: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bchoppr
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 both are ready now. Those were the only FTBFS problems.
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer OK.  Give me a while list there were some rejects in my email list I saw.
<studiobot> <teward001> and things that'll need reupped.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 I arleady got bchoppr and bslizr.
<studiobot> <teward001> whole list*
<studiobot> <teward001> ack
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer just as an update
<studiobot> <teward001> confirmed appendicitis
<studiobot> <teward001> they took the appendix out this morning
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Just need new-session-manager and dragonfly-reverb reuploaded.
<studiobot> <teward001> so i'm here in recovery for the next day
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 Yeah, I've been there. That sucks.
<studiobot> <teward001> well in my case we caught it early so
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Lost my appendix 6 years ago.
<studiobot> <teward001> that helped :P
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Mine was about to burst, apparently, even though the CT scan showed it as acute.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> By the time they got to it, it was pretty bad.
<studiobot> <teward001> heh yeah surgeon told my dad this morning when he called that it went without any issues.  wasn't super SUPER enlarged or burst-ready so we caught it early
<studiobot> <teward001> they're still giving me a bunch of antibiotics and stuff which is fine
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's just as a precaution.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Mine just progressed really quickly.
<studiobot> <teward001> yep
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 Oh, ignore the risc FTBFS on bslizr and bchoppr. The only reject we got at this point is dragonfly-reverb due to some minor issues. new-session-manager *will* be rejected for a binary package rename (again, not a huge issue, I already have it fixed). Not sure where mcpdisp is at, but it's still sitting there.
<studiobot> <teward001> ok
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer do you have an alt sponsor for now or?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I do not. They're simple uploads at this point anyhow. I'm hoping with all the work I've done that I can apply for MOTU status after Groovy releases.
<studiobot> <teward001> pl
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer FTBFS on msp-disp
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> mcpdisp?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> This is 100% what happens when it takes a month to get something through the queue because other stuff is "more important".
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Needs to be FCFS.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 Looks like it's 100% a launchpad issue. It failed to download build deps.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/492786908/buildlog_ubuntu-groovy-amd64.mcpdisp_0.1.2-0ubuntu1_BUILDING.txt.gz
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 related: seb128> builds are randomly failing in groovy, I uploaded/synced a bunch of packages and most builds hit errors like â¦ E: Failed to fetch http://ftpmaster.internal/ubuntu/pool/main/libx/libxxf86vm/libxxf86vm1_1.1.4-1build1_amd64.deb  Data left in buffer [IP: 91.189.89.99 80]
<studiobot> <teward001> yeah i poked the release channel about it just now
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-11
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer seems like a known issue, possibly an apt regression
<studiobot> <teward001> which means... um... things broke
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I'm fully aware, I've been reading along.
<studiobot> <teward001> ð
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Which is why I'm not sweating it as it's "Someone Else's Problem (tm)."
<studiobot> <teward001> lol vorlon said "is this apt in groovy?  do we need to roll back?" so i'm curious whether they're going to call it severe enough to count as needing a rollback
<studiobot> <teward001> but if this issue extends to OTHER packages i.e. my packages i'mma be angry as heck
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Literallly nothing we can do but wait. Vorlon already said there's going to be a number of packages that are going to have to be rebuilt due to this regresison.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> It's affecting anything that dropped into -proposed within the past 18 hours or so.
<studiobot> <teward001> odd that it's only on amd64 and risc
<studiobot> <teward001> i'd expect it to explode global
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> I agree. Two completely different architectures with the only thing in common is that they're 64-bit.
<studiobot> <teward001> well why not arm64 then too :P
<studiobot> <teward001> just sayin
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Exactly. There's no actual logic to it that I can figure out.
<studiobot> <teward001> well thats why i'm thinking they may roll back simply because of the severity of impact
<studiobot> <teward001> but meh i dunno
<studiobot> <teward001> more concerned about this BS in xca
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Well, risc isn't that huge of a deal because it's a new arch still in the process of being introduced, but amd64 has huge implications.
<studiobot> <teward001> well amd64 is global
<studiobot> <teward001> that's the major thing now
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer are you rerunning builds?
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 I was told not to worry about it that all of the FTBFS packages (not just ours) would get rebuilt.
<studiobot> <teward001> yep
<studiobot> <teward001> vorlon inicated as much though vorlon just fired off the mspdisp builds
<studiobot> <teward001> so tyvm to vorlon for those
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> Indeed.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 How are you feeling today?
<Eickmeyer> @OvenWerks: After all this time, mcpdisp is in the seed.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-12
<OvenWerks> wow.... 
 * OvenWerks feels like a "real dev" now...
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: having said that, -installer should probably look for packages to be removed and put up a continue/cancel dialog if removed is greater than 0
<Eickmeyer> That's done best with "sudo apt-get full-upgrade" because then it would show packages to be removed.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 How's the recovery going?
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer [@teward001 How's the recovery going?], still going.  sleeping a lot, which is a positive thing heh
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 [still going.  sleeping a lot, which is a positive thing heh], Absolutely. I might have 1 or 2 more packages to upload when you're feeling up to it.
<studiobot> <teward001> send me the list don't expect much action yet
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> ack
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: is lsp broken in 20.10?
<OvenWerks> or is it just a left it so long without sw update?
<OvenWerks> (1100 packages updated)
<OvenWerks> anyway, will remove all lsp packages then reinstall and see
<OvenWerks> it says there are two packages that write the same file :P
<OvenWerks> also it seems there is a problem with either carla, -controls, zita-ajbridge or jack.
<OvenWerks> I think it is carla... because zita-ajbridge was already updated before I started playing and thing s were fine.
<OvenWerks> removing _all_ lsp packages works (lsp-common was blocking things)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: we may have a problem with jakcd2 1.9.14-0ubuntu3
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: the last patch is going to python 3 and that may explain why tools that use jack_control or other pythoin based things act odd
<OvenWerks> jack_lsp works mostly the first time but never finishes... killing and restartiung fails
<OvenWerks> carla has troubles too
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: No, it's not broken. Are you upgrading to it?
<OvenWerks> lsp seems fine now, I removed all it's bits
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, looks like you figured that out. apt full-upgrade would've done that for you (hence it's in the instructions for the backport PPA to do that).
<OvenWerks> there used to be a -common that had a file in it that one of the new ones has
<OvenWerks> when I got rid of them all and reinstalled it's ok
<Eickmeyer> The new one is packaged in Debian.
<OvenWerks> right.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's what full-upgrade is supposed to do.
<OvenWerks> but jackd being bad is a worse problem
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Carla is an RC, so I'm not surprised if it has troubles.
<OvenWerks> if that is what it is
<Eickmeyer> But Jack in the backports is a newer version than in the focal repos.
<OvenWerks> I'm on groovy right now
<Eickmeyer> Ah. Yeah, I've had no issues with groovy.
<Eickmeyer> Of course, there's nothing in the backports for groovy right now.
<OvenWerks> run jack with whatever
<OvenWerks> use the CL tool jack_lsp to list the ports
<OvenWerks> jack_lsp never finishes
<OvenWerks> sigint (control c) stops it.
<OvenWerks> start again just hangs
<OvenWerks> carla seems to hang after a bit
<Eickmeyer> Just did that. No issues whatsoever.
<OvenWerks> -controls seems to hang after a bit
<OvenWerks> I reboot
<Eickmeyer> Can't duplicate.
<OvenWerks> so now it is fine... I booted here because I was having trouble with 20.04
<OvenWerks> (so is someone else which is why I was testing it)
<OvenWerks> now is not fine...
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I don't know if it is zita (I don't think so because the new one got to groovy in may)
<OvenWerks> or the way -controls deals with it?
<OvenWerks> but right now I have carla, -controls and jack_lsp all hung
<OvenWerks> reboot...
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I may have another -controls release. I set a timeout that I shortened to 5 sec back to 15 sec and the problem seems to have gone.
<OvenWerks> I will test it more in 20.04...
<OvenWerks> reboot...
<Eickmeyer> Ok...
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Did you see my issue report when I tried to run it in Fedora?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-13
<OvenWerks> Ok, just looking now. ...
<OvenWerks> more problems than jackd not starting
<OvenWerks> which desktop?
<OvenWerks>  is pulse installed?
<OvenWerks> The calls using pactl are failing
<OvenWerks> " Connection refused"
<OvenWerks> what does .log/jack/jackdbus.log look like? I expect it says no access to the device
<OvenWerks> if pactl can't connect to pulse via dbus, it is a good guess jack can't either
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^^
<OvenWerks> that may be a logind/systemd difference in dbus instance
<Eickmeyer> I believe it was Gnome, but I'll check with Plasma as well.
<Eickmeyer> And, yes, Pulse is definitely installed.
<OvenWerks> if the gnome desktop on fedora is the same as on ubuntu, logout and in will not work. a reboot each time probably.
<OvenWerks> gnome never realy shuts down their logind session properly... or maybe opens a second one on top of the first. either way pulse ends up on another instance of dbus. also make sure that pulse is set up as a user process not system
 * OvenWerks goes to spend time with wife
<Eickmeyer> OK, maybe that's it. Will keep investigating.
<Eickmeyer> Just a lot on my plate at the moment.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It has the same problem in Plasma. It seems as though it's shutting-down Pulse, but then Pulse isn't coming back for whatever reason.
<Eickmeyer> Bingo: W: [pulseaudio] module-jack-sink.c: JACK error >Cannot use real-time scheduling (RR/15) (1: Operation not permitted)<
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: thats pretty much normal and should not stop things from working
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: do you have autospawn = yes in client.conf in /etc/pulse/?
<OvenWerks> because pulseaudio -k kills pulse and expects it to respawn
<OvenWerks> cadence turns that off)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: something to try:
<OvenWerks> killall autojack
<OvenWerks> ps ax |grep autojack should show no autojack running
<OvenWerks> then use -controls to start jack again.
<OvenWerks> this should start another instance of autojack. If this works... we may have to go back to  /etc/xdg/autostart/autojack.desktop
<OvenWerks> anyway, it seems dbus related
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Interesting... autospawn=no is set in Fedora by default. :S
<Eickmeyer> Never had this issue before.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That method did not work. I'm guessing we've got some new dbus stuff that's messing up our flow. Unfortunately, if it's in Fedora now, then that means it'll land in Ubuntu in the future.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: it seems carla is to blame for things freezing up... but I am not sure why. I think there is also a problem with jack itself because once carla messes things up, restarting jack does not clear the problem.
<OvenWerks> so if carla freezes, nothing that reads or changes the graph works (qjackctl, jack_lsp, -controls, etc)
<OvenWerks> even after restarting jack.
<OvenWerks> so there is something left in memory... This looks like a problem with either jack itself or libjack.
<OvenWerks> that is aside from the problem with carla :) I actually think if the problem in jack/libjack was taken care of, the problem with carla would at least be less of a problem.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: with regard to the different way pulse may be set up from one system to the next, I feel that is a small problem.
<OvenWerks> it means we go from: kill pulse and expect it to reset itself
<OvenWerks> to: kill pulse, check if it is running, start it if not.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, it's more complicated than that, unfortunately.
<OvenWerks> have they also gone from user based to system based?
<Eickmeyer> I'm not following.
<OvenWerks> pulse can be run as a system service so that if there is more than one user logged in at the same time they all have access to the audio device.
<OvenWerks> it does limit pulse's operation which is why it is normally not done.
<OvenWerks> it may also be that the respawn setting is done by systemd rather than pulse itself.
<Eickmeyer> Hmmm... not sure. Seems to be a user service, but I'm not 100% sure. 
<OvenWerks> you should find it either in /lib/systemd/  system or user
<OvenWerks> ls /lib/systemd/user/pulse*
<Eickmeyer> I'm rebooting into Fedora to find out. That seems to have had to be a systemwide change proposal, and I saw nothing.
<Eickmeyer> Fedora doesn't make changes like that without making it a big deal.
<OvenWerks> so far carla 2.1 has shown no problems.... 
 * OvenWerks notes that carla 2.2 uses juce and maybe uses juce libs to talk to jack
<OvenWerks> certainly juce is the big difference from 2.1 to 2.2
<Eickmeyer> Hmmmm.....
<Eickmeyer> Perhaps I should package Cadence if only for catia, i.e. not making the cadence binary available.
<OvenWerks> I like that 2.2 handles jack restarts but I can't recommend carla as a replacement for patchage/qjackctl if we ship 2.2
<OvenWerks> catia _should_ be out on it's own "soon".
<OvenWerks> but falktx is pretty busy these days
<OvenWerks> I think patchage has sprouted python3 in the mean time too. but it may not be in debian yet. (and I could be wrong)
<OvenWerks> if catia has the same trouble as carla... it does use the same patchbay code after all, all bets are off
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, but you've got to remember that Carla is primarily a plugin host, so it makes sense for it to use juce.
<Eickmeyer> New patchage is not yet in Debian.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like it's being worked on.
<OvenWerks> with so many things using juce, finding bugs is worth while.
<Eickmeyer> Also remember that Carla 2.2 is just an RC at this point, he's still working on it.
<OvenWerks> yup.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: in Fedora, pulseaudio is a user service.
<OvenWerks> good.
<Eickmeyer> https://paste.centos.org/view/3b3522ac
<Eickmeyer> That's the log.
<OvenWerks> maybe we can use systemd commands to stop start.
<Eickmeyer> Also this: https://paste.centos.org/view/61979ad1
<Eickmeyer> I'm wondering if Jack is the issue.
<Eickmeyer> Either way, that's two separate machines I've tried now with Fedora that are experiencing the exact same issue with studio-controls.
<OvenWerks> assume starting jack with -controls so max ports should be 2k or so
<OvenWerks> Jack::JackGraphManager::AssertPort(jack_port_id_t): Assertion `port_index < fPortMax' failed.
<Eickmeyer> Is that the issue right there?
<OvenWerks> but I see other problems anyway. from the stuff you shared with me before, pactl is not able to communicate with pulse.
<OvenWerks> yes an assert is always a fail and dump.
<OvenWerks> but there are other things: [pulseaudio] module-alsa-card.c: Failed to find a working profile.
<OvenWerks> module alsacard should have already been unloaded
<OvenWerks> from your autojack logfile that did not happen because pactl got a permision denied when it tried to do things with pulse. It looks like a dbus permission denied
<OvenWerks> I have seen reports of similar things in the ardour forums
<Eickmeyer> Hmmm....
<OvenWerks> we may need to stop the systemd pulse and directly start our own, but I think others have found a solution without
<OvenWerks> I will do some research... but it may take a while
<Eickmeyer> ok
<OvenWerks> in the mean time maybe remove carla 2.2 from backports
<Eickmeyer> Ok, can do.
<OvenWerks> I am not sure what to do with groovy... will 2.2 see a fix and release?
<OvenWerks> I can't do a bug from here for that, maybe later I can reboot to groovy and do it there.
<Eickmeyer> Well, you can always report your findings upstream to https://github.com/falktx/carla
<OvenWerks> I suspect that it is not just unplugging USB devices but other graph changes as well
<Eickmeyer> Because this issue isn't a packaging error, so it's completely beyond my control. Falktx doesn't watch launchpad for bugs.
<Eickmeyer> And while launchpad can watch github issues, github cannot watch launchpad bugs.
<Eickmeyer> So I'd rather any bug reporting go straight to falktx's github.
<OvenWerks> 314 issues :P
<Eickmeyer> Yep, but you've got to remember that a lot of those are support questions and feature requests, not actual bugs.
<Eickmeyer> Github issues don't differentiate that like Launchpad and Bugzilla do.
<Eickmeyer> It's up to the repo owner on github to tag issues as actual bugs, feature requests, support questions, or discussions.
<OvenWerks> why can't github put dates on things? (26days ago...) a proper time stamp date time would be better.
<Eickmeyer> Hover over it and it will give you the date.
<OvenWerks> hmm, there is a commit 12 hours ago, "Alternative/better way to find all audio ports in juce plugins"
<Eickmeyer> That might be the fix, but we won't know for a while.
<Eickmeyer> This actually might be a good discussion to have in #lad.
<OvenWerks> https://github.com/falkTX/Carla/issues/1237
<OvenWerks> I will now clone master and build to see if it works better
<Eickmeyer> Ok.
<OvenWerks> Problem still exists
<OvenWerks> this is painful... I have to reboot every time I kick this bug.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yikes.
<Eickmeyer> Well, I've deleted it from the PPA, so if you "sudo apt autoremove carla && sudo apt update && sudo apt clean && sudo apt install carla" it should downgrade you.
<OvenWerks> it is too bad it doesn't happen every time.
<OvenWerks> I managed to downgrade thankyou.
<OvenWerks> I have 2.1 installed and 2.2 built that I can run from the source directory. So I can compare
<teward> Eickmeyer: i need a list of packages you need updated.
<teward> never got a ping from you that I can see
<teward> unless the Internet fubar'd
<Eickmeyer> teward: On telegram.
<Eickmeyer> Only two so far, no updates at this time since I can handle most of those myself.
<teward> oh NOW it arrived
<teward> never arrived before heh
<Eickmeyer> Hahaha
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-14
<teward> Eickmeyer: ack.  i'm not busy and feeling fairly better but still not 100% i'll do a cursory review
<teward> though my review may not be of as high a quality as normal because i'm still recovering from the appendectomy 
<Eickmeyer> Sounds good. My packaging skillz keep getting better and better (yes, that's a z).
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I get that. Hence, I don't want you to do anything you aren't up to.
<teward> yep
<teward> well if you keep your eye on things then all's good :P
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: gimme a link to the redkite upload to sponsor later tonight if you have no luck
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Ok. It's already in the archive so it would be a simple upload for you. It's at https://launchpad.net/redkite. Simple git repo.
<RikMills> can't do now, but I will look in a few hrs
<Eickmeyer> Just needs to be cloned, pristine-tar checkout, debuild -S, and dput. It's ready to go. However, if I get movement from the DMB then don't worry about it. :)
<RikMills> ok, lets see
<RikMills> pristine tar. yuk!
<Eickmeyer> That's the way I was told to do it...
<RikMills> it's just not in my normal workflow, where we always use just packaging in git + the upstream tar
<Eickmeyer> Ah, gotcha.
<Eickmeyer> You can bame cyphermox for teaching me this method.
<teward> lol
<teward> RikMills: Eickmeyer uses a gbp-esque workflow :P
<teward> its a pain xD
<Eickmeyer> Again, blame cyphermox.
<teward> (this said I use gbp for xca in Debian so I mean...)
<RikMills> kde would kill LP git if we pristine tar all our stuff! :P 
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: FWIW, plasma-wallpaper-dynamic will be a thing as soon as the AAs review the package. The way it works is pretty nice.
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: did that get uploaded? sorry I did not get to that. I am short of time
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, teward took care of it.
<RikMills> plus I have a short expected life expectancy of odd KDE things from github or other non kde repos
<RikMills> there have been many 'KDE' things like that that got an initial upload, then bitrotted
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. I'm in communication with upstream on this one. I think it'll be a neat addition to KFocus too, and I'm working with Mike on that.
<RikMills> teward: kubuntu uses a very customised gbp implementation for nearly all our uploads. designed so that we just have the debian folder in git
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: nice :)
 * Eickmeyer will be out a majority of the day
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: as usual, printine tar fails patheticallyv to make a source package. please put a real source package somewkere if you want sponsorship
 * RikMills glares at typos
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: I'm confused, printine tar?
<Eickmeyer> teward: ^?
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Doesn't matter anyhow, I got it uploaded myself. It's in my packageset.
<Eickmeyer> Oh, pristine tar.
<Eickmeyer> Gotcha.
<Eickmeyer> Weird...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-08-15
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @teward001 I completely forgot about lp:new-session-manager and lp:dragonfly-reverb needing reuploads.
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> new-session-manager had a binary namespace issue and dragonfly-reverb had some unused copyright lines (upstream removed a lot of stuff).
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: sorry for the rant to the rant on the mail list... 
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: No, I 100000% agree with you, but not sure about the PC going away. The gaming market is too rich.
<Eickmeyer> My method was deflection, your method was more pointing-out how myopic his assumptions are. Unfortunately, that's the author of our (now outdated) audio handbook which may end-up disappearing.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: those guys: A) don't buy PCs, they make them and B) are willing to spend mac like prices or more.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I do not know of any local computer store where one can go in and buy a game ready PC.
<OvenWerks> maybe I am looking on the wrong shelf or something
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: can I get you to test something? If you have a copy of carla 2.2 around still.
<OvenWerks> If you could try the recipe in my last comment at: https://github.com/falkTX/Carla/issues/1237
<OvenWerks> See if either Carla freezes or at least zita-a2j seg faults
<studiobot> <teward001> @Eickmeyer [@teward001 I completely forgot about lp:new-session-manager and lp:dragonfly-rev â¦], ok i'll add it to the list
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'll give it a shot.
<OvenWerks> I have found the fresh reboot is not needed... untill after :P
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I don't know how to accomplish step 2. What's the command line for that?
<OvenWerks> jack_control start
<OvenWerks> studio controls uses jack_control intyernally
<OvenWerks> so it is ok to start jack using controls
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ^^
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I just tried it, and by step 9 could not reproduce. Carla is not frozen for me.
<Eickmeyer> However, zita-a2j did segfault.
<OvenWerks> you will find it does not with carla 2.1 I think
<Eickmeyer> I'm using Carla 2.2-RC1 in groovy.
<OvenWerks> I think carla has a bloated jack callback
<Eickmeyer> Well, like I said, couldn't reproduce starting at step 9.
<Eickmeyer> Carla did not freeze for me.
<OvenWerks> quite probably a callback for jack graph change or something
<OvenWerks> I understand. That may be a difference in usb hardware or cpu or whatever
<Eickmeyer> That's my guess. In this case, I'm using an old 2010 Mac Mini as the hardware. Didn't test with my main system which uses a USB audio interface (not a cheap one) as its main sound card 90% of the time.
<OvenWerks> It is interesting that zita-j2a for me does not freeze Carla but does also segfault
<Eickmeyer> That tells me there might be an issue with the zita-ajbridge code.
<OvenWerks> possibly, but it doesn't matter if it is zita-ajbridge 0.8.2 or 0.8.4. I tried both
<OvenWerks> control c is the correct way of stopping zita-ajbridge BTW. anything else leaves a zombie process.
<OvenWerks> it is also what the author says.
<Eickmeyer> Huh. Still, a segfault is pretty bad.
<OvenWerks> I think what happens is that zita when it receives the ctrl c: removes it's jack ports and then tries to shut it's client and fails because carla, on getting a graph changed callback is still busy and so the client close segfaults.
<OvenWerks> many of the jack callbacks are RT (have to complete within one cycle) and are not supposed to include any call to the jack api.
<OvenWerks> in my code I have had to save the callback info, set a flag and then have some other code take care of the info saved.
<OvenWerks> Certainly in python but I also do so in c/c++ code
<Eickmeyer> Gotcha. Ok, then it comes down to that I couldn't duplicate your issue using a USB headset I own.
<Eickmeyer> My biggest issue, and what is probably bugging me most at the moment, is how the pulse bridge in Studio Controls in Fedora isn't working properly, if at all.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I have a spare partition (20G) I could install if there is an ISO.
 * OvenWerks has some Ardour work to do too...
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: ok, I was just being dumb and tired as I so rarely do pristine-tar stuff. glad you got redkite done :)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, there's an ISO, let me see if I can get the link for you.
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: So, what I do is "pristine-tar list" which returns a list of what can be checked out. Then I do "pristine-tar checkout {latest tarball}". Then I "mv {tarball} .." to get it in the parent directory. After that, it's just a matter of "debuild -S (-d)" and an upload.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: What I have won't represent F33 very well (because it's rawhide, and F33 branched earlier this week): https://kojipkgs.fedoraproject.org//work/tasks/3671/48863671/Fedora-Jam_KDE-Live-x86_64-Rawhide-20200807.n.0.iso
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: yep, I was just not thinking properly
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: Happens to all of us. :)
<RikMills> indeed (insert Teal'c gif)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: ok I will check this one first... then maybe upgrade or wait for an iso I can play with.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: RE: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/jackd-defaults/+bug/1872244 there is no such package that I can see... and it looks like user trouble rather than an actual fault
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1872244 in jackd-defaults (Ubuntu) "Jack audio not working on Ubuntu 20.04 running on a Thinkpad Carbon X1 (7th gen)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: To be fair, the Rawhide ISO is fairly close. About a week ago they pushed a change to the build system which broke Jam, and they're just now getting it fixed. I use Rawhide because it's developed alongside F33 at this point, and will be until F33 releases.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: RE bug 18722144, I just invalidated it. You're absolutely right, that was a support request, not a bug.
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 18722144 could not be found
<Eickmeyer> er... bug 1872244
<ubottu> bug 1872244 in jackd-defaults (Ubuntu) "Jack audio not working on Ubuntu 20.04 running on a Thinkpad Carbon X1 (7th gen)" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872244
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the iso DL keeps dumping out... oh well half way through
<Eickmeyer> That's very strange. It shouldn't, koji is the "source of truth" for the builds.
<OvenWerks> right now it says paused
<OvenWerks> must have been a bad keystroke
<Eickmeyer> bad keystroke?
<OvenWerks> That paused it.
<Eickmeyer> Ah, downloading now?
<OvenWerks>  but it failed about 20 sec after resume... restarted and quite again.
<Eickmeyer> Ok, maybe I can get it on my nextcloud.
<Eickmeyer> Oof, upload is going to take over an hour. Keep trying.
<OvenWerks> seems to be stuck at 1.3 Gb
<Eickmeyer> Might be because Koji isn't mirrored, so you're downloading directly from the datacenter in WA DC.
<Eickmeyer> Though, I'm experiencing some slowness too. Might just be congestion everywhere.
<OvenWerks> my restart from 0 made it past 1.3 this time.
<Eickmeyer> Oh good.
<Eickmeyer> My upload still has 39 minutes, so it would be nice if your download finished before my upload.
<OvenWerks> now failing at 1.8...
<Eickmeyer> *sigh*
<OvenWerks> made it to 1.9
<Eickmeyer> Well, that's progress.
<OvenWerks> firefox fails to open a file browser... I think it is hard coded to nautilus :P
<OvenWerks> anyway, it finally finished
<Eickmeyer> It shouldn't. It's hardcoded to xdg-open.
<OvenWerks> maybe kubuntu does not have that set up... or maybe I am remembering xfce but that was set with thunar as favoured file manager
<OvenWerks> everything else opens the right file browser
<Eickmeyer> In Groovy xdg-open is set for Dolphin.
<Eickmeyer> Studio Groovy.
