#ubuntu-mobile 2007-11-19
<dholbach> good morning
<lool> Hmm "X" returns with 0 with hardy images; sudo Xorg works, but startx and xinit fail with "xinit: Server error."
<StevenK> Neat.
<lool> Blah, the modules are simply missing
<lool> It's using i965 and the kernel's drm, and I'm missing psb
<lool> I wonder why, I'm using the lpiacompat version of the kernel which I thought was the correct one for the q1
<StevenK> I thought so too.
<StevenK> I thought psb was for the Paulsbo
<lool> Oh the builds are using BOTH
<lool> linux-image-2.6.22-14-lpia	2.6.22-14.46
<lool> linux-image-2.6.22-14-lpiacompat	2.6.22-14.46
<lool> (<http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/moblin-build-logs/gutsy/mccaslin_samsungq1ultrafull/latest/mccaslin_samsungq1ultrafull-20071118.log>)
<lool> Too bad Amit isn't around
<guardian> StevenK: hi, is there a way to participate in the hildon input method discussions ?
<lool> Blah /etc/X11/X is a symlink to /bin/true for some reason
<Profanephobia> so how goes the project?
<mdz> Profanephobia: busily
<mdz> there is a lot to do
<Profanephobia> mdz, how close to launch?
<mdz> Profanephobia: there are alpha builds available now, a "1.0" release is still some months away
<Profanephobia> mdz, what phone would you recommend.. right now i have a BB Pearl and I doubt its compatible
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-11-20
<war10ck> Morning
<war10ck> anybody knows why there is no evdev module in the menlow kernel package?
<alek_desktop_> theseinfeld, could we talk here ?
<alek_desktop_> my private msg was blocked
<theseinfeld> ok
<theseinfeld> so, alek_desktop_ are you the one with the menlow?
<dholbach> good morning
<Fenario> elmo: are you there?
<StevenK> elmo isn't in this channel
<Fenario> StevenK: thanks user error
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-11-21
<dholbach> good morning
<Fenario> cvd: ping
<dholbach> Fenario: wrong channel
<dholbach> :)
<Fenario> dholbach: thank you!!!! not enough coffee :-)
 * dholbach prepares some more tea
<guardian> hello
<agoliveira> Dos anyone have a N800 handy?
<agoliveira> s/Dos/Does
<ian_brasil> i can get hold of one
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: I just want to know if claws 3.10 is already on it or if one has to download and install.
<ian_brasil> ok i will have a look
<agoliveira> Thanks
<ian_brasil> the default on the device is osso-email of which the UI and engine are all GPL ..claws meeds to be installed from http://www.claws-mail.org/maemo/ using the one click installer
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: That makes sense. I'll try it on my 770. Thanks.
<ian_brasil> no problem
<lool> Meeting?
<Don_Johnson> I'm here, but I have not heard from anyone else yet
<smagoun> ...
<tonyespy> ...
<bfiller> where is davidm?
<garyl> [:) 
<agoliveira> Yep
<kyleN> I just pinged him in another chat room
<Sciri> ...
<ChickenCutlass> :)
<lool> Me too; let's flood ping him
<agoliveira> Weird, I was chating with him 5 min ago...
<kyleN> he must be sleepy thinking about all the thanksgiving food he'll be eating tomorrow
<agoliveira> ... and people say that we down here have too much holidays...
<agoliveira> s/much/many
<smagoun> agoliveira: have you ever been to rio/salvador/etc for new years or carnaval???
<Sciri> sudo ping -f davidm
<kyleN> Sciri: lol
<lool> agoliveira: You can't possibly compete with France on the topic of holidays; we virtually never work
<bfiller> someone want to call him on his cell?
<agoliveira> smagoun: My family is from there so I have a very good idea :) but down here we don't have carnaval
<lool> bfiller: You have it?
<agoliveira> Someone on US preferably?
<bfiller> yes, I'll call him
<lool> bfiller: Would be nice if someone from the US did :)
<smagoun> lool: aren't you on strike this month?
<smagoun> (you = france)
<Don_Johnson> I have his number, I'll try calling
<lool> smagoun: It was hard to claim I can't go to work due to strike of the public transportation, but I could have tried entering a strike process myself indeed
<bfiller> leaving voice mail right now on cell
<bfiller> I'll try home..
<lool> Shall we proceed in discussing the actions points nevertheless?
<Sciri> Maybe davidm ran out of coffee...
<bfiller> he's joining now..
<davidm> I'm here sorry
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:12. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kyleN> taking care of your turkeys? ;)
<davidm> Side tracked was off line tringto get online again
<davidm> OK, first item is:
<davidm> [topic] bfiller to for looking into a better solution for a banner to be hidden or shown in hildon-desktop.
<MootBot> New Topic:  bfiller to for looking into a better solution for a banner to be hidden or shown in hildon-desktop. 
<bfiller> don't have much progress to report here as I haven't had the time this week to work on it..
<bfiller> can we carry over until next week?
<davidm> Yes
<davidm> [action] carry over  bfiller to for looking into a better solution for a banner to be hidden or shown in hildon-desktop.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  carry over  bfiller to for looking into a better solution for a banner to be hidden or shown in hildon-desktop. 
<davidm> [topic] continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes. for next week.
<MootBot> New Topic:  continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes. for next week. 
<bspencer> didn't do it
<davidm> carry over again?
<bspencer> :-\  sorry. unfortunately please carry over
<davidm> NP
<davidm> [action] continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes. for next week.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  continue to hold open: bspencer & horaceli to verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes. for next week. 
<davidm> [topic] Don_Johnson to investigate USB client use case and how to export ext3 filesystems to windows use case.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Don_Johnson to investigate USB client use case and how to export ext3 filesystems to windows use case. 
<Don_Johnson> Some information, thanks to Bob and Rob, pushing a discussion. I'll try to summarize.
<Don_Johnson> The use case in question was access to ext3 filesystems from windows systems, as I recall.
<Don_Johnson> In this case, the PRD use case, and this seems to be confirmed by the email discussions is to use RNDIS and TCPIP to export these file systems.
<bspencer> Don_Johnson: correct -- we have agap we are trying to close between the USB client w/FAT and our ext2/ext3 filesystem
<lool> (What's PRD?)
<Don_Johnson> The PRD use case says that on the MID select filesystems to be exported.  Then when the MID connects, it move to RNDIS mode.
<Don_Johnson> PRD: Prodcut Requirements Document
<lool> (Thanks)
<bspencer> lool:  good question     What is that Don_Johnson  :)
<bspencer> lool:  our marketing group created a requirements document long ago that we refer to internally
<kyleN> is Intel providing the MID side software to select the MID folder to expose?
 * lool discovers RNDIS as we talk
<lool> bspencer: Ok; thanks for clarifying to me
<smagoun> kyleN: folders should be exposed automatically, users shouldn't have to configure the MID
<smagoun> The PRD might not say that, but it's wrong :)
<bspencer> kyleN:  my understanding ( Don_Johnson can correct ) is that Intel is providing the USB client solution.  Users should be able to plug the MID into the PC and see a new drive (similiar to any mass storage device)
 * agoliveira is scared about marketing writing documents that engineers have to follow after
<davidm> So are we thinking SAMBA in conjunction with RNDIS to export ext3?
<bspencer> agoliveira: welcome to the corporate world
<agoliveira> bspencer: Why do you think I ran aways from it? :)
<Don_Johnson> Samba is mentioned in this context.  I don't know enough about Samba to give an opinion on how this works
<lool> Don_Johnson: Who decides to expose data as RNDIS + samba or USB mass storage?
<davidm> Correct me if I'm wrong but is not RNDIS TCP/IP over USB?
<bspencer> jacob_p:  ping
<Don_Johnson> That is my understanding, that RNDIS is TCP/IP
<jacob_p> bspencer, pong
<smagoun> davidm: yes
<davidm> So then we need to have SAMBA running to export a windows share or shares then? Is that the thought?
<bspencer> jacob_p: = jacob_pan ?  Have you helped on USB client work?  Or is that someone else?
<agoliveira> davidm: In theory you can use over any network device but usually it's over USB, yes.
<jacob_p> bspencer, not me. it is a team in beijing doing the development work. Alek is doing the integration
<agoliveira> http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/network/NDIS/rmNDIS.mspx
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/network/NDIS/rmNDIS.mspx 
<patm> Dumb question, has anyone here ever done this with a USB connection, and does it just work with windows
<bspencer> patm:  you mean, has anyone plugged in the MID to a PC and seen it show up as a mass storage device?
<patm> or any computer
<bspencer> my iRiver is a computer?  it does this
<kyleN> lool's question also: what decides if MID is treated as usb mass storage or rndis + smaba
<lool> I know there's "usbnet" which should be capable of interconnecting linux hosts, but I don't know whether it's actually rndis compatible
<davidm> Don_Johnson, to summarize what I think I hear:  Intel to provide a USB Client driver that will bring up networking when connected to a Windows or Linux box, then we run samba on that interface to provide share[s] to be mounted?
<bspencer> davidm / Don_Johnson :   We need to clarify the process and deliverables.  I don't think we've ever done that clearly
<Don_Johnson> I can't comment on samba.  The model is that on the MID the user selects which filesystems to export. As I understand it, if filesysesm are selcected for export, it mounts itself as a network device to export them.
<davidm> bspencer, Don_Johnson can you take an AR to clarify the process and deliverables?
<bspencer> davidm:  yes, thanks
<Don_Johnson> But I think we need to get more info on how this works and what the user interface is.
<tonyespy> Don_Johnson: does a MID-user really need the capability of exposing /bin to the PC?
<agoliveira> I'm not sure I'm confortable with "the user selects which filesystems to export" if the "user" means end user.
<Don_Johnson> OK, I'll keep looking into it.
<lool> Don_Johnson: So no mass storage emulation anymore?
<bspencer> tonyespy: we are planning to export a sub-part of the filesystem
<davidm> [action] bspencer & Don_Johnson to clarify the process and deliverables.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bspencer & Don_Johnson to clarify the process and deliverables. 
<bspencer> tonyespy: such as the home directory, or even more restricted -- the "media" subdirectory
<smagoun> tonyespy: Don_Johnson there should be a predefined set of folders exposed (music, photos, video for starters). there should be no configuration.
 * lool agrees with smagoun 
<Don_Johnson> The model I read, said that initially it mounts as mass storage.  I believe in this case it exports VFAT.
<bspencer> smagoun: totally agree
<agoliveira> +1
<tonyespy> bspencer: then my question would be...can a driver alone do this work, or does there need to be an addtl piece of MID user-software to drive?
<davidm> yes, but the file system is ext3 so you need to provide a translator to export a vfat from ext3
<lool> Don_Johnson: Who decides whether it's exposed as mass storage?  Where's the vfat?
<bspencer> tonyespy:  alek as described it to me a few times, but I can't repeat his description.  Yes, something additional has to have this intelligence and where that is I'm not sure, but someone here is :)
<Don_Johnson> I'll check I think this is an area where the expectation is that OEMs will customize the filesystems exproted.
<bspencer> davidm: exactly, there's the rub.  
<patm> any chance the usb client spec can be updated to explain this 
<lool> NB: there's a rndis_host module on my hardy install
<davidm> [action] Don_Johnson I'll check I think this is an area where the expectation is that OEMs will customize the filesystems exported.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Don_Johnson I'll check I think this is an area where the expectation is that OEMs will customize the filesystems exported. 
<davidm> OK to summarize: filesystem = ext3 to mount on Windows must be seen as VFAT
<davidm> two possible ways to do this: Networking and SAMBA or USB Mass Storage with some code to translate on the fly between ext3 and vfat
<davidm> Are there other options I'm missing?
<kyleN> that sounds right, except if rndis, does there have to be host side setup utility?
<Don_Johnson> Customization and configuration. Who decides what filesystems are exproted.
<davidm> Don_Johnson, true but how that might be done would depend upon which method is used to export the filesystem.
<bfiller> Don_Johnson: (copy from smagoun ):there should be a predefined set of folders exposed (music, photos, video for starters). there should be no configuration.
<lool> davidm: There's the option to expose the memory card, like on the N800
<lool> I think this makes sense
<Don_Johnson> I believe, that should be: No end user configuration.
<davidm> Under samba it's well known but does not have a super friendly front end.  Under the USB MS with translator who knows
<smagoun> Don_Johnson: yes. no end user configuration. It should be magic to the end user
<bfiller> Don_Johnson: yes
<tonyespy> davidm: to kyle's point, intel is working on the client-side driver; we need to determine if additional software on the client and/or host is required to make the solution "usable"
<lool> There's also the option of having the /home as a vfat filesystem, but then we would have to umount it before exposing it as USB mass
<bspencer> I think our design by committee is fun, but I would suggest that someone take the assignment to clarify all of these things so we don't do this again.
<davidm> So can we postpone the rest of this conversation until after the action items are reported back on?
<patm> Don_Johnson, who at Intel is implementing this feature
<smagoun> mootbot #nexttopic
<bspencer> patm: we cleverly split up the work across divisions 
<patm> davidm, I want an action to update the specification for usb client
<bspencer> and we are now working through the problem together.
<davidm> patm, are you taking that action? Or do you want someone to take it?
<bspencer> patm: I can take the assignment to find an owner from our side
<patm> davidm, whoever bspencer  refers to as "we"
<davidm> patm, got it
<patm> bspencer, thanks
<davidm> [action] bspencer I can take the assignment to find an owner from our side to update the USB specification.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bspencer I can take the assignment to find an owner from our side to update the USB specification. 
<bspencer> accepted
<davidm> Are we good at this point?
<davidm> new topic coming then
<davidm> [topic] carry over lool to upload an updated MIC which uses the PPA /by default/ to next week.
<MootBot> New Topic:  carry over lool to upload an updated MIC which uses the PPA /by default/ to next week. 
<lool> I uploaded an updated and fixed MIC for hardy which pulls from hardy + hardy ppa by default; I wouldn't recommend using hardy on q1 or on touchscreen devices using the evtouch driver as it's currently a bug with no workaround; I backported this MIC for gutsy + gutsy ppa, the images work fine and I recommend using/testing it, you can use it under hardy as well instead of the hardy version
<lool> (hope this wasn't cut)
<davidm> lool, the last part I got was: I backported this MIC for gutsy + gutsy ppa, the images work fine and I recommend using/testing it, you can use it under hardy as well instead of the hardy version
<lool> [Building images for hardy should fail at the moment due to gtk+2.0 not being built for lpia; I've contacted IS and they solved the issue, the buildds should finish building the queue soonish]
<lool> davidm: That's the last part; thanks for confirming
<davidm> Np
<bspencer> lool:  if I ask for a package (let's say hildon-libs-l10n-engb) to be added, you will put this in hardy PPA and gutsy PPA ?   So I can get them now w/gutsy+gutsy PPA solution?
<lool> bspencer: The first thing which we should target is hardy; when the module work in hardy, and if there's interest for it I (or someone else) can backport it wherever needed
<lool> One obvious place would be the gutsy ppa if that's what you're basing on ATM
<bfiller> lool: can you clarify what the hardy ppa is for then?
<bspencer> time frame estimate for hardy being ready?
<lool> bfiller: It has just been setup for symetry with the gutsy + gutsy ppa setup
<lool> bspencer: define ready?
<lool> bspencer: No major issue once?  No major issue until release?  image builds and boots, UI doesn't work?
<bspencer> lool:  we have put some packages on moblin because we didn't know how else to get them in a working image 
<bspencer> (such as the hildon one above)
<davidm> bspencer, we can pull that into both ppa's
<lool> bspencer: So I would recommend you try to put them in the development dist: hardy; that should always be your first concern IMO; if you then need to get it into stable images, then the gutsy + gutsy ppa ones seem like good stable images to me
<bspencer> lool:  right, but we don't have the luxury of waiting for a week or month or months for a stable working image.  We need things working now.
<davidm> but we want to make sure it does not break the gutsy ppa or it would void the purpose of a stable ppa for testing
<lool> bspencer: You should make sure that any fixes you carry at moblin.org is in hardy and then we can work on backporting hardy stuff into gutsy ppa
<bspencer> lool: agree, I was just looking for an ubuntu solution that was stable at all times.  I can't use hardy today, so we have things on moblin + we use gutsy
<lool> bspencer: The gutsy images should work at the moment, but I don't think they pull from the PPA; if you need to override the current build sooner than the images pulling from the gutsy ppa, I recommend you run image builds from the gutsy + gutsy ppa yourself
<davidm> bspencer, is the package stable in gutsy now?  If so we can put it into gutsy ppa now.
<bspencer> but hardy is our future and we want everything there too.
<lool> bspencer: The Ubuntu stable solution is supposed to be gutsy at the moment; if you can run image builds yourself, I recommend gutsy + gutsy ppa
<bspencer> lool:  yes, exactly.  So can we add theese new packages to hardy + gutsy PPA now?
<lool> (I don't know when our gutsy images will be pulling from the ppa)
<lool> bspencer: Sure, we can always do that; as long as this doesn't render the stable images unstable :)
<davidm> 15 minutes left
<bspencer> lool:  yes, I see.  OK.  I'll send you an email and yo ucan take it form there
<bspencer> davidm: done from my end
<davidm> K
<lool> bspencer: If you pull MIC from gutsy ppa, it will build an image from gutsy + gutsy ppa which is stable
<lool> done here too
<davidm> [topic] smagoun Since my group needs this, I'll take an action item to test Intel's flavor of exa on top of gutsy.
<MootBot> New Topic:  smagoun Since my group needs this, I'll take an action item to test Intel's flavor of exa on top of gutsy. 
<smagoun> no progress - I've been working on other X problems (failure to launch with latest gutsy+ppa+moblin debs/kernel) and a couple fire drills on our end.
<davidm> carry it over?
<smagoun> yup
<davidm> [action] carry over  smagoun Since my group needs this, I'll take an action item to test Intel's flavor of exa on top of gutsy.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  carry over  smagoun Since my group needs this, I'll take an action item to test Intel's flavor of exa on top of gutsy. 
<davidm> [topic] StevenK to get h-i-m included in the build so KyleN_ can test
<MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK to get h-i-m included in the build so KyleN_ can test 
<kyleN> steveK got this in today, haven't tested
<davidm> I know that StevenK is working on this
<lool> (Seeing smagoun is building against gutsy + ppa + *moblin*, I'm interested in hearing from fixes we should upload to Ubuntu which are currently moblin only)
<davidm> Good, so new action is KyleN to test?
<kyleN> yes
<agoliveira> gutsy + ppa + *moblin* sound scary...
<davidm> [action] kyleN to test  h-i-m and get back to StevenK on status
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kyleN to test  h-i-m and get back to StevenK on status 
<bspencer> agoliveira: that's just because he put asterisks ** around moblin
<agoliveira> bspencer: Even so :)
<davidm> [topic] kyleN_ to email Kevin to understand his issues with h-i-m
<MootBot> New Topic:  kyleN_ to email Kevin to understand his issues with h-i-m 
<kyleN> I talked to Kevin Huang this morning about what he thinks the limits of the Hildon Input Method are. He said he is not sure  that with HIM the user can switch input method from, say Pinyin Simple Chinese to Anthy for Japanese. You can easily do this with SCIM. 
<davidm> K so will your test from prior action cover this issue?
<kyleN> as noted, I'll attempt to test HIM, although there's precious little info out there on how to do it
<davidm> understood
<kyleN> yes, prior action covers it
<davidm> K
<davidm> [topic] agoliveira mobile-applications spec should be updated to include two things: List of commited apps for Hardy, Analysis of "app critieria
<MootBot> New Topic:  agoliveira mobile-applications spec should be updated to include two things: List of commited apps for Hardy, Analysis of "app critieria 
<davidm> agoliveira is the list in the spec complete at this point?
<lool> kyleN: FWIW, http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1189194936.html mentions "Common user interface to switch between input methods, languages and layouts."
<kyleN> lool, thanks
<agoliveira> Ok. I added the basic list of apps we agreed upon into the spec and included also a link to a slightly modified https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplicationCriteria
<agoliveira> Basically: UME browser    Cheese    Claws mail    Moblin Chat    Moblin Media Player   
<smagoun> I'm not convinced that the "complementary criteria" aren't required
<kyleN> agoliveira, have you applied each criterion to each app and noted the analysis somewhere?
<agoliveira> smagoun: I agreed but we simply don't have the manpower to do everything.
<smagoun> for example, hiding the user from the filesystem - that's not a 'minimum requirement'
<agoliveira> kyleN: Not yet. I didn't have the time.
<smagoun> (but it should be)
<agoliveira> smagoun: Well, we have to draw a line at some point based on the resources we have
<patm> agoliveira,  Is the basic list of apps the complete set of committed apps?
<agoliveira> patm: For the core, yes.
<bspencer> wrt criteria, I took that excellent list and broke it into 3 levels:  bronze, silver, gold.  moblin plans to have a web page that lists applications and the _level_ of criteria they meet.
<agoliveira> bspencer: Don't forget to ping me when it's done, please
<tonyespy> what about settings applications?
<agoliveira> tonyespy: Like configuration stuff?
<tonyespy> agoliveira: yes
<bspencer> agoliveira: I'll send my suggested levels to this list shortly
<bspencer> kyleN: won't be happy because I put i18n in the "gold" level  :P
<tonyespy> agoleira: or operational menus / apps ( eg. nm-applet )
<agoliveira> Well, that's a good question. As I'm looking only for user level stuff, it never crossed my mind.
<kyleN>  bspencer, I'm thrilled beyond the capability of words to express ;)
<agoliveira> I believe that goes into the work Rob have being doing doesn't it?
<kyleN> guess that means we need core apps to meet the gold level
<bspencer> kyleN: absolutely.
<davidm> agoliveira, I think so
<bspencer> kyleN: that is true -- no sarcasm intended
<agoliveira> Ok but are we going to take this the way it comes, no margin for discussion?
<patm> has any more work gone into evaluating the modest based email client?
<kyleN> ago: lets take the gold list and consider that a work order (somehow) for all core apps
<davidm> bspencer, I'm looking forward to seeing your list
<agoliveira> kyleN: That's my question. Let's check the list first, shall we? :)
<agoliveira> patm: Not me, I wasn't working last week.
<kyleN> ago: definitely
<davidm> [action] bspencer to email  his suggested levels to this list shortly
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bspencer to email  his suggested levels to this list shortly 
<patm> agoliveira, is there a plan to do this soon? or do we need to make one?
<lool> patm: I think StevenK discussed updating a lib or a tinymail component recently
<davidm> patm, not yet, agoliveira on vacaion last week, tollef this week
<agoliveira> After that we can tell what can be possibly done with the resources we have now, namely, you'rs trully.
<bspencer> one thing I found in organizing the list was that we need examples for all of these things
<bspencer> that is a big task
<lool> We're at libtinymail 0.0.4
<davidm> OK out of time and we have two items left.
<smagoun> bspencer: I think I can help you with examples
<bspencer> patm: davidm  is that planned?
<agoliveira> patm: Not yet. We are commited with claws for now.
<patm> agoliveira, may be hard to make gold :-)
<bspencer> I would love a little investigation on tinymail
<bspencer> agoliveira: may be hard to make bronze
<agoliveira> patm: I'll be glad to live to see the release right now :)
<bspencer> lol
<davidm> patm, we are commited to the latest version of claws and to looking at libtinymail but claws works for now.
<agoliveira> bspencer: Me too but right now I just can't promisse anything soon.
<smagoun> s/works/is in already
<bspencer> is in _where_ already?
<bspencer> hardy, gutsy ppa ?
<agoliveira> I'm about to start porting the latest claws into lpia.
<agoliveira> bspencer: hardy but not lpia yet.
<bspencer> so no hildon claws yet
<bspencer> (yes I know I can build it from source on my system )
<agoliveira> bspencer: Nope. I'm about to do that.
<davidm> bspencer, give a couple of days and I think it will be ready?  agoliveira true?
<bspencer> just needling you again :)  Would love to have a hildon claws in the images by default
<agoliveira> Yep.
<bspencer> ok
 * bspencer writes down Friday as the date  ;)
<davidm> can we move to the next topic?
<agoliveira> I'm good
<davidm> [topic] tonyespy - gnome-keyring & MID; to start or not to start...
<MootBot> New Topic:  tonyespy - gnome-keyring & MID; to start or not to start... 
<agoliveira> bspencer: I guess so.
<davidm> tonyespy, comments?
<tonyespy> i have 2 private bugs where wifi keys & passphrases aren't remembered after..
<tonyespy> reboot or resume
<tonyespy> this is due to gnome-keyring not running on the MID
<tonyespy> where should i file a bug?
<davidm> does it work if you start the gnome-keyring?
<patm> this is a basic design question for a system with no user login
<tonyespy> davidm: not sure yet
<tonyespy> i'll take an action to test
<davidm> well it still has a user though
<smagoun> the problem is that gnome-keyring requires a password, right?
<tonyespy> one question is where should it be started?
<patm> can the user understand a keyring, and should they enter a password
<lool> tonyespy: You might want to discuss it with gnome-keyring upstream: I think gnome-keyring is relying on env vars to work ATM, but it should move to a dbus service; if you want to launch it like in a gnome session, then we need to change the start-hildon script or something
<tonyespy> patm: that's a long term question
<lool> tonyespy: It's not enough to "start" the process, you also have to set some env vars IIRC
<smagoun> patm: no
<tonyespy> lool: gotcha
<lool> Check "env | grep KEY"
<davidm> [action] tonyespy to test if  wifi keys & passphrases are remembered after reboot or resume if gnome-keyring is running
<MootBot> ACTION received:  tonyespy to test if  wifi keys & passphrases are remembered after reboot or resume if gnome-keyring is running 
<lool> GNOME_KEYRING_PID=6429
<lool> GNOME_KEYRING_SOCKET=/tmp/keyring-DlI1eD/socket
<tonyespy> lool: that can go in the hildon startup script no?
<bspencer> > tonyespy: where should i file a bug?
<patm> if we do not want a keyring, we need a new design for this for mobile, and someone to own it
<lool> tonyespy: We should preferably not hardcode anything in this script
<bspencer> a longer term topic, but how is bug management done?
<lool> Just like we shouldn't hardcode "load the wifi modules" in an init script :)
<bspencer> who reviews, prioritizes, assigns, follows up, closes ?
<tonyespy> patm: long term is another question.  i'll take an action on the long-term design
<tonyespy> patm: network-manager 0.7 is supposed to have global settings, i think this may mean no more keyring, but i'm not sure
<bfiller> bspencer: I bellieve the bug gets filed on the appropriate project on launchpad. lool can you verify this is correct?
<patm> tonyespy, objects in your mirror are closer than you think
<lool> bspencer: Depends; the bug discoverer reports, a package maintainer forwards to the upstream author and a package maintainer closes the bug when it reaches the archive
<tonyespy> patm: huh?
<patm> what is long term, one month?
<kyleN> patm means long term is really next week
<davidm> K very short of time now
<davidm> can we address last topic ?
<davidm> [topic] smagoun - X fails to start on Crown Beach with recent images
<MootBot> New Topic:  smagoun - X fails to start on Crown Beach with recent images 
<lool> davidm: There are two agenda items which are more or less push-only information I guess
<smagoun> I'm testing gutsy + gutsy ppa + moblin on crown beach. X doesn't start. Works fine w/ the moblin kernel but not the ubuntu one. Anyone else seen this/working on it?
<smagoun> and on a related note, what's amitk's schedule between now and 1/1/08?
<davidm> amit is on vacation at the moment
<davidm> I think he is back next week'
<smagoun> when does he return?
<smagoun> thanks
<lool> Doesn't look like it when looking at the HR portal
<smagoun> davidm: I'm all set
<davidm> K
<davidm> OK, smagoun do you have any idea why X is not starting or are you investagating?
<smagoun> investigating. Some sort of kernel problem
<bspencer> smagoun: is this related to sound card?
<davidm> K lets talk in email further
<smagoun> bspencer: no.
<bspencer> without the sound card there was a bug which caused hildon-desktop to fail on CB
<bspencer> smagoun: oh, sorry.  I didn't see the kernal comment
<smagoun> bspencer: it's not that, I promise. :)
<bspencer> working fine with moblin kernel,   crashing with ubuntu kernel
<davidm> OK I'm going to close the meeting and get the meeting minutes out shortly.
<lool> Thanks!
<ian_brasil> just a quick reminder...there was a lack of status updates this week...only Loic so far in my inbox...can this be sorted a.s.a.p please?
<lool> I did all the work this week!   :-P
<davidm> I'll also ask Amit to contact ASAP on return from vacation.
<smagoun> thx
<kyleN> lool: as usual
<agoliveira> lool: You have to. All the rest of your country is on strike :)
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:16.
 * agoliveira is back
<bfiller> bspencer: ping
<agoliveira> Claws 3.10 looks *much* better...
<davidm> Yes it does
<agoliveira> bfiller: Looks like Bob is running from you :)
<davidm> agoliveira, It's better then the last version I had, that is for sure.
<agoliveira> It's a bit odd if you're used to the regular interface but it has an interesting approach 
<bfiller> agoliveira: damn him :)
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-11-22
<dholbach> good morning
<guardian> morning
<Mithrandir> nobody has packaged the kinetic scrolling widget yet, have they?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Is there one? I missed that...
<Mithrandir> there was a python implementation
<Mithrandir> I'd like it to go into gtklistview, I think
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/MobileApplications doesn't say anything about eds-sync, should it?  (Keeping your local contacts list and the remote buddy list in sync)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I had this discussion with David and he told me to drop syncing at least for now.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: So I was afraid to add it to the spec.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: BTW, there's a whole spec on syncing that was passed to Bob Spencer. I don't know why, actually.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: hm, ok.  Have you looked at eds-sync at all?
<Mithrandir> I know about that spec, yes, but that's slightly different, I think
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: No, not that specificaly. I was looking more in the syncing process as a whole while at UDS/AllHands. Didn't return to the issue after vacations yet but this talk with David.
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-11-23
<dholbach> good morning
<edsiper> ian_brasil, ping
<ian_brasil> ola
<edsiper> oi, tudo bem ?
<ian_brasil> blz..um favor, a gente falar ingles neste canal 
<edsiper> ian_brasil, do you know who can give some orientation about the new opportunity job  to work in  the  ubuntu mobile team ?
<ian_brasil> what sort of orientation do you need?
<edsiper> I would like to apply but I don't have experience in some with some technologies as hildon or create deb packages, but I don't think that can be so difficult to learn... I would like to know if this requirement can exclude me before to apply and make your (or HR team) lose a bit of time
<edsiper> *avoid
<ian_brasil> I have no idea about this but why not apply and see what they say
<edsiper> I though that ask before to apply can save a bit of time for both :)
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-11-25
<some1> hi... 
<some1> i know that this channel is specified for ubuntu, but you know what kind of mobile is it_
<some1> http://picasaweb.google.pl/lh/viewPhoto?uname=lozyrardow&aid=5136527023215116865&iid=5136530278800328562
<some1> .nicks
<some1> adam_b: alek_desktop asac astro76 bfiller_ BlueT_Malaysia bryce cprov-away DannyZ davidm daz devnu11 doko__ dv etrunko
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-17
<koolkat> anyone here?
<persia> Heaps of people.
<koolkat> cool
<koolkat> Could i run ubuntu mid in a vm?
<koolkat> vmware 
<persia> It should work in a VM.
<persia> I'm not sure how the image format works with vmware.  Most of the discussion I've seen about using MID in a VM has been for virtualbox, kvm, or qemu.
<koolkat> what image should i download?
<koolkat> there is a lpia and some other one
<koolkat> umpc
<persia> It depends on whether you want MID or UMPC.
<koolkat> there is a difference?
<persia> Very much so.
<koolkat> like...
<persia> Well, they represent two different strategies to create a perfect mobile computing experience.
<persia> UMPC is a specially themed desktop with adjustments for smaller screens, etc.
<koolkat> ok
<persia> MID is a replacement framework with adjustments to use desktop apps.
<koolkat> ok
<koolkat> so if i wanted to run a desktop app on umpc would it work?
<persia> Yes.
<persia> Well, constrained by the application type, some of the hints make things odd.
<persia> Also, some apps presume a higher resolution that is available on some UMPCs.
<koolkat> ok..so if i wanted to run ubunt on a 5 inch scpreen what would be best?
<koolkat> persia
<persia> Hard to day.  I've used both MID and Mobile on a 5" screen.  They feel rather different, but I'm not sure either is better.
<persia> s/day/day/
<persia> s/day/say/  !!
<koolkat> what moble device do you have?
<koolkat> (i dont know the right name for it_
<koolkat> )
<koolkat> persia: what processor architecture is required? 
<koolkat> intel?
<koolkat> peria
<koolkat> persia: you there/
<persia> I'm here, just distracted by several things, and so not immediately responsive.
<persia> I have a Kohjinsha SR-series, and a Sharp D4.
<persia> For MID, you want an lpia processor, although it might work on similar things (try it and see).  For UMPC, you want an i586 or better.
<koolkat> so will my laptop run umpc?
<koolkat> perisa
<koolkat> persia
<persia> It's likely.  Depends on your laptop.  (And no need to use my name every time: it has almost no effect on my response time)
<koolkat> ok
<lool> Folks, the evince hildon patch is being removed from the evince package; it was disabled for a long while already (since hildon-fm broke)
<persia> Excellent.  I'll take it off my list of packages to de-lpia-ify.
<persia> lool, Any word on status of the pkg-maemo team?  Is there good stuff there, or is it stuck waiting for squeeze to open?
<lool> persia: pkg-maemo is mostly quiet because we lack upstream stuff to package
<lool> It's kind of chicken and egg to some level: would get more traction if we had kernel, and hildon-desktop based images
<persia> So pkg-maemo is stuck on Debian not having such images?  Should we be pulling directly from upstream upstream?
<ogra> upstream upstream upstream :)
<persia> Well, that's not typically helpful, as I want the hildonisations from upstream upstream.
<ogra> the thing is that you rarely have a clean upstream tgz ... they use to directly do native packages
<persia> That's just surgery though.
 * ogra would love to have maemo-mapper bt the package is a massive pain
<ogra> i looked at it already 
<ogra> no fun
<persia> Pulling from pkg-maemo would have been easier, but I can understand if they are stuck.
<s0u][ight> davidm, my connection is fixed: the samsung omnia has a 624MHz Marvell PXA312 processor
<davidm> OK that is an ARM processor so the UMPC and MID images currently would  not do you any good
<persia> s0u][ight, What's the resolution on that device?
<s0u][ight> http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_i900_omnia-2422.php these are the specifications
<ogra> the linux-omap tree has an option for that CPU 
<davidm> We have just started working on an ARM port so in the future we could possibly have an image that could work.
<persia> s0u][ight, Even MID won't probably render acceptably at 240x400.  The lowest I've heard anyone testing is 640x480.
<ogra> not sure how many peripherials that would support though
<persia> s0u][ight, If you wanted to install Ubuntu, you'd want to have a very specialised custom installation, although 16GB is plenty of space (some people run in 2).
<s0u][ight> well i'm sick of windows
<ogra> you could run gpe on top of an ubuntu but thats indeed quite an old UI
<ogra> or OPIE 
<persia> s0u][ight, The other interesting question is: do you want to use that as a phone?  I don't think there's good phone software at this point.
<ogra> but i'm not surea about the upstream development status of either ... meight be dead
<s0u][ight> so it ubuntu mid doesn't have baseband drivers?
<ogra> drivers dont give you a phone ui :)
<ogra> there is no UI sofware at all yet
<persia> It uses the same drivers as other flavours.  There's certainly support for some 3G devices, but only for data I think.
<ogra> afaik even the openmoko needs to do dialing from console 
<s0u][ight> this project is too new i assume
<ogra> and not really targetig phones (yet)
<persia> There's a couple tools that generate DTMF, and the sl-modem source can generate a sound device if the modem supports it (some have native sound).
<ogra> -mid is for "mobile inernet devices" ... they're slightly bigger things 
<s0u][ight> i know
<persia> s0u][ight, No, it's not age, it's target.  The target is for adjuncts to the phone.  Much higher resolution, often with accessible keyboards.
<persia> Such a device goes in your other pocket.
<s0u][ight> but everything that can run windows should be able to run linux (with better performance)
<persia> Oh, it can run linux.  It's just not a MID.
<ogra> persia, or your backpack :P
<persia> There are linux phone distros, but Ubuntu doesn't currently have a phone flavour.
<persia> ogra, I left the backpack age at the turn of the century.  Catch up!
<ogra> lol
<ogra> but you are also living in a japanese breadbox :)
<persia> Well, that's not strictly accurate.  I think I still used a slab about the size of the Q1U until mid-2002.
<s0u][ight> no linux on my samsung omnia yet :(
<persia> (of course, that was a 486DX/100, with a PCMCIA type III hard drive)
<s0u][ight> and no way i'm going to buy a mid too expensive and big for pocket size
 * persia recommends sport jackets
<ogra> you can definately compile something yourself
<ogra> there is a kernel ... so there is an opportunity
<s0u][ight> hehe a working kernel shouldn't be too hard but a ui writing myself :|
<persia> Main issue is UI.  Not a lot designed for those few pixels.  There's some QVGA stuff that might be adaptable though.
<ogra> gpe, opie
<ogra> as i said above
<ogra> http://opie.handhelds.org/gallery/main.php/v/opie12/
<persia> s0u][ight, Take a look at OPIE or GPE or Qtopia.  All are aging, and there are newer alternatives, but those were designed for lower pixel counts.  These days most people are hildon or QT Extended, but that usually presumes at least 640x480.
<s0u][ight> i'm looking at them
<ogra> seems the gpe screenshot site is broken :/
<ogra> http://www.handhelds.org/geeklog/article.php?story=20060119163110621 there is at least one 
<s0u][ight> yeah i was looking at that one
<s0u][ight> and even let's forget about the ui how can i install linux on the device?
<ogra> well, you need to have a kernel, know where it has to go so a bootloader picks it up ... create a rootfs, then install 
<ogra> form there on you can start working on the device directly
<ogra> and build what you need
<s0u][ight> starting with the blackbox theory lol
<s0u][ight> this would be nothing better than the iphone linux project :D
<ogra> to create a rootfs you can start with queu-arm 
<ogra> yeah, its a lot of work
<ogra> and really only something you shoud do if you dont want to actually use the device for a while 
<persia> s0u][ight, Yeah.  The first part is making sure you can image it, and what not.  Decidedly non-trivial.
<persia> Where "a while" is perhaps several months.
<ogra> yeah
<s0u][ight> i  would have to live with windows mobile
<ogra> or get a second device :)
<persia> s0u][ight, Generally Ubuntu works best for devices that can boot off an external device (e.g. CD, USB drive, etc.).  This lets you test for HW support pre-install, or use a regular installer.  Without that, it's just painful.
<s0u][ight> hehe i don't throw with money you know
<s0u][ight> then there is the question about firmware/ sign check
<persia> s0u][ight, Oh, if you have a firmware signature check, you'd need to control that.  Otherwise, you've little chance.
<s0u][ight> damn my connection starts again :|
<s0u][ight> this is the second device i posses where i can't install linux on
<s0u][ight> my ipod doesn't work aswell :(
<s0u][ight> brb going to try something with my connection
 * ogra has a fine working ipod
<ogra> with familiar on it 
 * persia wishes someone would put the iPod classic HD in something with a keyboard and at least VGA resolution, still under 250 grams.
 * ogra wants a pocket projector
<persia> ogra, See, the difference is that your desire can be satisfied by just going to a shop.
<persia> Mine is *finally* getting close to being realised, but it's still not there.
<ogra> not at the size i want it (yet)
<persia> Ah.
<ogra> it shouldnt be bigger than my BT GPS reciever
<ogra> and indeed work at daylight 
<persia> Yeah, well, I can't get 120GB + VGA in anything smaller than 10", so I think you're closer in size.
<persia> Well, there's the Archos, but that lacks the keyboard.
<persia> (plus I can't find the Archos in shops :( )
<ogra> is there a BT version ? 
<ogra> you can use the freedom keyboard with it if there is 
 * persia looks
<ogra> and they seel them at amazon ... no need for a shop 
<ogra> *sell
<persia> Of course it's blocky.  I *know* apple could produce a device with HD, WiFi, BT, and support for common HMDs at around 215 grams, which is the annoying bit.
<persia> I like to use things before I buy them.  Make sure they fit in my pocket right.  Make sure I can type on them reasonably.
<ogra> the archos 7 seems to have a standard usb port
<ogra> for kbd etc
<persia> Yeah, but that's too big.
<persia> Archos 5 is 300g, but no bluetooth.
<persia> I'd prefer about 4".
<persia> The other advantage of the iPod over the Archos is that it supports HMDs better.
<playya> what about a nokia n810?
<playya> it has a small key board an a usb port
<ogra> to proprietary ? 
<playya> or you can use a bluetooth keyboard.
<persia> playya, Tiny storage.
<playya> how much do you need?
<ogra> he said 120G above :)
<playya> ogra, which parts of the n810 are properietary?
<persia> I'd like 250GB.  I'd put up with 120GB.  I have 40GB in my 1024x600 pocket device today.
<ogra> playya, wlan at least
<ogra> not sure about the other HW 
<playya> i thought they released the driver
<ogra> its supposed to be more open in the successore device i heard though
<persia> I just don't like it being 500g, and it's 4.8", which is a little large.
<playya> imho n8[10] needs a gsm chip
<persia> Well, maybe.  I like to keep my pocket computer and phone separate.
<playya> i'm dreaming of a all in one device for my pocket with wimax
<playya> wimax flat of course
<s0u][ight> hi again
<persia> playya, I have an "all-in-one" device.  130g.  4G.  852x480.  BT, 3G, qwerty, etc.  It's generally sub-par for nearly everything, although it's not so big I mind using it for phone calls (but prefer with a headset).
<persia> playya, I find that I have two use cases for stuff in my pockets.  The stuff I want to happen on a notify basis, and the stuff I want to happen on a demand basis.
<persia> For things like phone calls, or maybe email, or possibly IM, it's nice to have a device that never gets shut off.
<persia> For things like browsing, gaming, book reading, note taking, music/video playing, running spreadsheets, etc., it's nice to have a device with more power (even if that only means an 8-10 hour battery life.
<s0u][ight> persia, are there any linux drivers for multitouch screens?
<playya> has anyone started to bring the openmoko stuff to ubuntu?
<persia> s0u][ight, I don't know anything about the status of multitouch.
<ogra> playya, unlikely to happen i think
<ogra> unless openmoko switches to a different cpu 
<playya> ogra, the freesmartphone.org stuff might be useful on some devices
<persia> Does openmoko have interesting applications?
<persia> I thought it was semi-monolithic.
<playya> the gesture recognition maybe
<playya> but now they use enlightenment
<playya> and maybe gypsy, frameworkd,...
<persia> playya, If you think it's worth it, feel free to try to create relevant debian-format packages.
<persia> It's not likely the UI is suitable for any of the default installs, but it might be fun to play.
<playya> most of the stuff has depencies to the latest enlightement
<persia> There was someone who wanted to get e17 packaged, although I forget whom.  Problem is lack of releases for some components.
<playya> i use the reasy script to install e on my laptops
<persia> Upstream behaves like many other upstreams, except that they claim all the software isn't useful to anyone except hackers, and that the tarballs that appear are snapshorts, rather than releases.
<ogra> persia, i was told next year raster wants to make an actual release
<ogra> seems he finally gets that he needs to make one :)
<ogra> afaik its planned for jan/feb
<playya> do you believe it?
<persia> Hmmm...  That would be interesting.
<playya> he just started a new project ...
<persia> Of course, whether the general behaviour changes is the more interesting question.
<ogra> playya, well, i truest the guy i talked to that he belives it :)
<ogra> *trust
<persia> I'd like to see the "snapshots" be called "releases", and that's about it.
<ogra> andhe is an active contributor and promoter 
<ogra> though he was a little upset when i called e17 the hurd of desktops :P
<persia> The main driver has is sufficiently concerned about the meaning of "production-ready" that I'd fear a release was likely to start a new direction, and mean little more work on the existing effort.
<playya> maybe. but raster often changes his priorities
<playya> atm it is: see e on mobile devices instead of a stable release for pcs
<ogra> well, thats where the requests come from
<ogra> the guy i tlked to at CELF is a mobile dev who has customer requests for stable E 
<ogra> thats why he pushes raster towards it 
<playya> ogra, http://lwn.net/Articles/299694/ there will be a open driver soon
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-18
 * Hobbsee waves
<persia> Hey Hobbsee
<ian_brasil> hi, is 8.10 an official release of mid and mobile or will that be with 9.04?
<persia> ian_brasil, I think it's best to say it's an official release of MID, and a preview release of UMPC.
<persia> 9.04 should be an official release of both, unless something changes.
<ian_brasil> persia: thx ..is this on a wiki somewhere?
<ian_brasil> if not maybe it should be?
<persia> It probably should be.
 * persia has been intending to update the Mobile FAQ for a couple days, and keeps getting distracted
<thebishop> hey, i'm really interested in the MID formfactor, but the only one coming soon is the Gigabyte M528, and that one has some problems.  Have others been announced?
<persia> There's the Sharp D4.  The Aigo MID.  There's probably some others.  I haven't heard of any that made everyone happy yet.
<persia> I think it's still an evolving segment.  Manufacturers are trying different designs trying to find the right combination of size, pixel density, weight, storage, and poser.
<persia> s/poser/power/
<thebishop> persia, well, the M528 is the Aigo with a different logo
<thebishop> the Sharp is a little pricey :(
<thebishop> and big
<persia> Yeah.  There's three or four like that.
<persia> The Sharp is a little bigger, but has 10x the hard drive and 3x the pixel density.
<thebishop> it looks good, except the storage is a disappointing
<persia> (but yes, it's a bit pricey)
<thebishop> i'm not sure I can justify more than $700
<thebishop> what i really want is an iPhone that runs linux and is open to user modification
<thebishop> heh, small thing, i know
<thebishop> I like this formfactor though, I hope we see a lot of competition in 2009
<persia> My problems with the iPhone are 1) not enough storage (I'd prefer the iPod classic HD), 2) poor input support (I like keyboards), and 3) low resolution.  Other than that, they look lovely (oh, and yes, they should run Ubuntu).
<thebishop> persia, yeah, i agree with you on the storage.  i want 64GB at least
<thebishop> but hoping for a hard drive is starting to feel quaint next year, 64gb will be pretty cheap
<persia> Maybe.
<thebishop> i wish the iPod Touch had been iPhone-Phone+HDD, i would have one already
<thebishop> except, it doesn't work with linux anymore
<thebishop> so fuck apple
<persia> !ohmy
<ubottu> Please watch your language and topic to help keep this channel family friendly.
<thebishop> oh sorrty
<thebishop> "f" apple
<thebishop> the Nokia N810 wouldn't be a bad option if it had a normal SD slot instead of MicroSD...
<thebishop> what's the deal with that anyway, it seems like all the new portables are going Micro
<lool> You people knew of http://linux.onarm.com/ ?
<ogra> yes
<ogra> ECHAN btw :)
<playya> hi everyone
<persia> Hey playya 
<thebishop> heh
<ogra> yo playya 
<thebishop> lool, so it's just a platform for the N810?
<lool> ogra: ECHAN.?
<thebishop> it's getting frustrating to see the software advancing so far for hardware that barely exists yet :(
<lool> ogra: I did intend to mention it here
 * ogra points lool to #ubuntu-arm :)
<ogra> ah, well :)
<lool> ogra: I need to remember about it
 * lool was just thinking that it was cool they use the n810 as a platform :)
<ogra> yeah
<thebishop> it is cool.  unfortunately, the 810 has some hardware deficiencies :(
<ogra> does it ? 
 * ogra thought its just the n800 with kbd added
<playya> and a newer wireless chip
<ogra> and a newer cam
 * lool teleports to -arm
<persia> And still not any storage space
<playya> and the latest version has wimax
<ogra> persia, two SD slots 
<persia> So, maybe 32GB, if I stuff it.
<ogra> depends what you want to invest 
<ogra> :)
<persia> Are there 32GB SDHC cards?  I didn't see any last week.
<ogra> i have heard of 32G SD cards ... (not seen them though)
<playya> i herat of 64 GB but >1000â¬
<persia> I could get another device for less than that!
<playya> s/herat/heart
<persia> Still, I'd rather not have a "phone", a "media player", a "pocket computer", and a laptop.
<thebishop> ogra, i thought the 800 has SD slots, but the 810 has micro only
<thebishop> if the 810 had SD, i'd use it as my portable media player (and everything else, too)
<ogra> whats wrong with micro ? 
<ogra> you get them at the same sizes as SD (here at least)
<ogra> and they usually come with SD adapter by default 
<persia> I've only seen micro up to 8GB here, but it's about the same price as SD for the same speed and storage.
<thebishop> ogra, you can get micro up to 32GB?
<persia> Except the micros go on sale more (2GB@980 yen)
<ogra> i cant even get SD up to 32 
<thebishop> 32GB is the barebones minimum fo rme
<thebishop> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820178212
<ogra> i get up ot 16G SD here 
<ogra> i only heard from people having 32G ones
<ogra> micro might end at 8 in default shops ... but i guess you can buy them with 16G if you invest enough somewhere
<thebishop> i wish hardware manufacturers would stop forcing ever-smaller nand chips on us... at this rate, i'm never going to get the capacity i want
<ogra> just lower your expectations :)
<ogra> helps a lot :)
<thebishop> impossible
<thebishop> i have a 30GB music collection, and it's not getting smaller
<persia> thebishop, The problem isn't the smaller form-factor, so much.  You should welcome that if you want more storage.  Lots of 4GB micros sold means optimisation of manufacturing, which increases the chance you can get a 128GB SSD for a reasonable price.
<thebishop> persia, that's a good point.  on the other hand, i want a moderate amount of storage in a handheld device.  i'm not especially interested in high-capacity SSD for laptops (yet)
<thebishop> the usual 2.5" drive seems OK for that at the moment
<persia> who said anything about laptops?
<thebishop> it seems like the trend among portable hardware manufacturers is 4-8GB in increasingly smaller devices.  no one seems to be pushing for 64GB+
<persia> My D4 has 40G.
<persia> If I was adventurous, I could probably stick a 60 or 80 in there, but I don7t really want to open it up.
<NCommander> hey persia 
<persia> Hey NCommander 
<NCommander> persia, so expect for fbreader, I think we got everything that is lpia specific
<NCommander> (I'm finishing tsclient)
<persia> Cool.  I'll rerun my script tomorrow to double-check.
<persia> Thanks a lot for chasing that.  I'm rather curious to know how well it works on the Wii.
<ogra> wii ? 
<persia> ogra, powerpc device from Nintendo.
<ogra> i know what a wii is
<NCommander> ogra, I have Ubuntu running on mine :-)
<ogra> i didnt know anyone runs ubuntu on it
<NCommander> I want to see how mid works on it
 * ogra never understood the reason to buy an overly expensive game console to not play with it 
<persia> torcs!
<persia> More generally, Ubuntu has a bunch of decent games.
<ogra> well, you could just use a PC and get aaway a lot cheaper :)
<NCommander> persia, anyway, my branch needs to be merged once I finish tsclient, and then ubuntu-mid regenerated
<NCommander> (once we resolve fbreader)
<persia> I thought we had determined a solution for fbreader.
<persia> To seed the alternate front-end separately to force the choice.
<NCommander> I'm just not sure it will work
 * NCommander is having issues figuring out germinate
<persia> OK.  What about germinate is troublesome?
<NCommander> I have no idea how to parse the output :-P
<NCommander> I get loads of files, and no idea what they mean
<persia> Right.  How are you using it?
 * NCommander sighs
<NCommander> persia, germinate mid
<NCommander> persia, anyway, tsclient's hildon patch is broken
<NCommander> autoconf issues
<NCommander> \o/
<persia> OK.  What is your goal?
<NCommander> My goal?
<persia> You're running `germinate mid`.  What are you seeking to accomplish by doing so?
<NCommander> I'm trying to get it to spit out the list of packages that it would include ont he CD
<persia> I don't think it works quite that way.  I think it generates the list of dependencies.recommendations.
<persia> I'd recommend downloading the mobile-meta source, editing update.cfg to point to your repos, and running ./update therein.  That ought give you a working metapackage that you could install.
<NCommander> works for me
<NCommander> So technically everything is de-hildonified ATM
<NCommander> Expect tsclient, evince and ekiga (I think) have broken hildon patches
<NCommander> \o/
<persia> Doesn't fbreader still need a bit of fiddling with the dependencies?
<persia> I think lool said the evince patch was being dropped.
<persia> ekiga needs review against ekiga 3.0, as that's on the way: probably worth deferring.
<persia> tsclient needs help, presumably.
<NCommander> Well, upstream Debian actually has the hildon patch
<NCommander> So someone needs to go to pkg-gnome and fix it there
<persia> Or we need a different hildonised tool that does a similar thing.
<NCommander> Do we have another tool that can connect ot a terminal services client?
<NCommander> persia, is there a blueprint of things we want to discuss at UDS about MID/Mobile?
<persia> Yes.  vinagre.  rdesktop.
<NCommander> I personally would like to see something with VNC
<persia> No, there's lots of blueprints.  See https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-jaunty for the current list of approved stuff (which is expected to grow over the next couple days : there should be ~250 topics for discussion)
<persia> Which reminds me.
<NCommander> Ooh
<NCommander> The mobile seed one reminds me we need to get he xubuntu jaunty seed moved
<persia> ian_brasil, Did you register the dogtail spec or the GPS spec yet?
<NCommander> persia, should I send an email to the list about my suggestion on dropping treb to a recommends vs. a dependency?
<persia> NCommander, Probably.
<persia> Or file a bug.
<persia> I'd say that those have about even chances of getting in front of the right people to fix it, but that sending it to the list would get feedback from more users.
<NCommander> persia, bug against what specifically?
<persia> mobile-meta, if you want to change the metapackage.  treb if you want to change treb.
<NCommander> well, the ideal fix is to demarry treb and OOo
<persia> Well, yes, but that means a reimplementation of treb, which is basically orphaned upstream.
<NCommander> persia, ok, so your idea running update didn't quite work
<NCommander> persia, since it checks the main archive for packages, and I can't figure out a way to make it check both a PPA and the main archive at the same time :-P
<persia> Oh, you've stuff in a PPA?
<persia> I know how to make it check a different BZR branch, but I don't know how to make it check a different repo.  I think you'd have to trick debootstrap somehow.
<NCommander> persia, :-P
<mkrufky> is mike frey around?  i used to know his nick but i dont recall it
<NCommander> davidm, ping
<davidm> NCommander, hello
<NCommander> davidm, how goes your night?
<NCommander> (or day, or whenever :)?
<davidm> just about to sit down to dinner with my family :-)
<NCommander> ah, I can wait until after dinner, ping me when you return
<davidm> It's just about 6PM my local time
<NCommander> Your in Altantic?
<playya> brasil?
<ogra> heh
 * NCommander needs someone who can rescore builds
<ogra> the temperature might be similar
<ogra> NCommander, cjwatson might still be up
<davidm> Central time USA
<ogra> davidm surely cant rescore 
<davidm> NCommander, I can't rescore builds
<NCommander> oh, no, what I pinged you for was completely unrelated
<NCommander> That was just a side comment :-)
<davidm> Ah, OK later then I'm about to be called to dinner
<NCommander> cya :-)
<khaeru> 'Ello 'ello?
<khaeru> I have been Googling for about an hour trying to figure out if it's possible to switch my Acer Aspire One from the i386 to the lpia kernel, simply by choosing different repositories (e.g. from the UMPC image)
<khaeru> Lack of success indicates no, but I would appreciate if someone could confirm that.
<ogra> you would need to use the -mid image for installing nd then install the ubuntu-mobile package for the desktop
<ogra> the -mid image is the only one using lpia in intrepid
<ogra> you cant cross-grade atm
<khaeru> OK, thanks for the info.
<khaeru> If the UMPC image is still i386, and I have what is technically more of a "UMPC" than an "MID", I guess there wouldn't be much benefit?
<ogra> well, UMPC simply uses the ubuntu-mobile metapackge 
<ogra> the image is built for generic x86 though
<ogra> but that doesnt mean you cant install the metapackage in lpia
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-19
<khaeru> I mean, should I expect better power consumption from an LPIA kernel than an i386 kernel on an Atom processor?
<ogra> well
<ogra> i personally didnt see any
<ogra> though you might see speedups
<khaeru> Hm
<ogra> the lpia kernel is M686 while the -gerneic one is M586
<khaeru> Alright
<khaeru> IC
<khaeru> OK, thanks a lot for answering my questions :)
<khaeru> Bye
<ogra> but with either of them the test device i ran it on survived 5h 
<NCommander> davidm, so how goes dinner?
<playya> fuck
<playya> tried to setup openembedded in a makefile to compile ubuntu-mid
<playya> ln -sf Makefile Makefile is evil
<playya> everythings gone :'(
<playya> me too
<playya> good night
<davidm> NCommander, just back, had to run out to a town meeting, seems we need some extra power lines 
<NCommander> ah fun
 * NCommander just fixed mono on armel :-)
<davidm> cool
<NCommander> Between mon and tslib, we should be fairly close to getting desktop installable
<NCommander> (GTK is now installable)
<NCommander> *mono
<davidm> Woot, that is good news, but lets take this into #ubuntu-arm :-)
<humancat> isnt aufs should work automatically? for example linpus format and automount SD card if inserted to slot in this aspire one laptop. and in ubuntu aufs even isnt running by default...
<humancat> actually i use generic ubuntu
<humancat> HELLO ANYBODY HOME? :D
<humancat> if not i probably should steal something...
<humancat> :D
<humancat> lol
 * persia needs more than 15 minutes sometimes :(
<ogra> did you check what he stole ? 
<persia> The only thing I found missing was a sense of continuity.  Do you see anything?
<ogra> heh
<ogra> no, nothing :)
<superm1> on the umpc image, is there any particular reason that the initrd isn't shipped in casper/ like the rest of the ubuntu disks?
<persia> Because it used a special different build system.
<persia> There was a bug about that (although I've forgotten the number), and it's expecting to be closed in the next couple days (ideally for Alpha 1)
<superm1> surely a simple mv command could be added to this build system though
<superm1> okay
<ogra> its being redone anyway atm
<persia> Well, there are other issues with it, like the lack of .disk, etc.
<ogra> .disk is there
<superm1> .disk was in the 8.10 gold image as i can see
<ogra> else we wouldnt be able to use UUID
<superm1> casper would likely freak out then
<ogra> yep
<persia> Oh, cool.  I missed that that was fixed.
<superm1> the squashfs is however built still with livecd-rootfs though right?
<ogra> jaunty images are built by the normal build system though
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> that wont change
<superm1> ah okay, then moot point
<ogra> but the vfat image buildprocess changes
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-20
<NCommander> davidm, ping
<davidm> NCommander, pong
<NCommander> hey davidm 
<davidm> I have too many IRC tabs open, did not see your ping before.
<NCommander> davidm, np
<persia> Team meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 15 minutes
<davidm> about to start meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
 * Hobbsee echoes hate at libtool
 * Hobbsee echoes equal amounts of hate at dpkg-source.
<persia> Why?
<persia> Did lpia eat something you want?
<Hobbsee> no, i just don't understand how to rerun autohell, without dpkg-source then going and complaining that the symlink has changed.  Yes, it's supposed to change - that's the entire point!
<ian_brasil_> sorry i missed the meeting (holiday in Brazil today)..i registered a couple of blueprints
<ian_brasil_> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+spec/gps-on-mobile
<ian_brasil_> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+spec/automated-test-suite
<ian_brasil_> i will try to fill out the wiki pages later
<persia> davidm, ^^
<davidm> persia, ian_brasil_ thanks
<davidm> I'll add to schedule
<playya> ian_brasil_, gypsy is nice. openmoko uses it
<playya> but i don't know if the o-hand guys will continue devolping it
<persia> playya, Why shouldn't they?  Do you know of another plan for GPS for moblin?
<playya> persia, no. but i don't see any commits in their repos :(
<persia> Hrm.  Unfortunate that.  Maybe by adopting it and showcasing it on lpia, we can do well.
<playya> i send iani vala bindings but no response
<persia> There's a session on Moblin Complaince that's been scheduled for UDS (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+spec/moblin-compliance) which might be interesting.
<playya> and vala-gen-introspection creates .gir file. so it is possible to create binding for everything
<persia> Just needs someone to be active upstream.
<playya> i already know some parts of it
<playya> shold i do this?
<persia> Well, obviously it's best to work with the existing upstream, but if you have an interest, and you join the upstream dev team, it'd go a long way towards making it an easier decision to use it in Ubuntu.
<persia> On the other hand, if you're only doing it because you want it in Ubuntu, it might be better to wait for the UDS discussion, and see what other stuff comes up.
<persia> (as if someone has another killer solution, then it wouldn't be there by default anyway)
<playya> is it possible to sign the code of conduct with an untrusted key?
<playya> i want to see an up to date enlightenenment with python bindings, too
<persia> Well, you need to trust your key.  You don't need anyone else to trust your key.
<persia> Of course, the more people trust your key, the better :)
<persia> (or at least, the more closely integrated you are in the Web of Trust, the better)
<playya> i alsways missed to go to the cacert booth :(
<persia> Extra points for having dual-trust-paths to a majority of Ubuntu devs, but that's not a requirement.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-21
<kfx> hi all, is there a reason ubuntu-mobile uses devilspie instead of the "maximize" setting in the put plugin for compiz?
<persia> Mostly to offer compatibility for people like me who can't run compiz, I think.
<persia> Might be other reasons though.
<kfx> makes sense
<ogra> yes, devilspie works with both WMs
<kfx> it confused me because it defaults to compiz but then re-implemens some plugin functionality with devilspie :)
<Hobbsee> yay, devilspie!
<Hobbsee> ogra: did you fix rss-glx yesterday?
<ogra> Hobbsee, no, other packages came in my way
<ogra> its some issue with the location of config.sub/.guess/ltmain.sh
<Hobbsee> ogra: yes, i was looking into it last night.  Mind if i steal it from you?
<ogra> no biggie i guess 
<ogra> not at all !
<Hobbsee> :)
<ogra> :)
<Hobbsee> ogra: i'll come begging for help, if required?  :P
<ogra> sure
<Hobbsee> cool :)
 * Hobbsee doesn't really know what she's doing, from a libtool, etc, perspective, but sees that it does require a merge as well.
<ogra> ah, yeah, i didnt even bother to look at the merge list, only tried to fix all FTBFS on arm with the quickest hacks possible
<ogra> 90% of the package will be updated anyway
<ogra> *packages
<Hobbsee> that's true
<NCommander> Hobbsee, what merge?
 * NCommander would be glad to teach
<Hobbsee> NCommander: rss-glx.  ahven't looked at it yet
<Hobbsee> NCommander: give me time :)
<NCommander> ?
<Hobbsee> as in, i may be able to figure it out myself
<NCommander> ah
<charlespax> Will there be any new mid or umpc images released for the jaunty alpha?
<charlespax> Is this the right place to discuss the lpia images or is just mid and umpc?
<playya> doko, have you tried bootstrapping with cdebootstrap?
<playya> it always says : E: Unknown suite jaunty
<Ze_> Is anybody familiar with setting up HAL for serial touch screens? (or serial devices)
<playya> good morning everyone
<Ze_> morning (well afternoon in oz)
<NCommander> davidm, you floating around?
<davidm> On calls right now sorry
<davidm> I've been on 3 hours of calls so far without break
<NCommander> davidm, no issues, ping me when your free
<davidm> Ok going to finish call (55 minutes left, one more 30 minute call then lunch so about 2 hours at least. 
<NCommander> ok
<davidm> Sorry
<theidealist> Hello anyone, new to ubuntu-mobile, was wondering if anyone in the chat now had a good sense of the UMPC boot process.  I've got a custom compile of qemu I'm trying to run it on.  I'm wondering what root and/or boot params I need to pass it (a grub menu.lst file would be great).  My qemu is booting with coreboot and FILO as the bootloader.  I've managed to get other distros to boot but am having problem with the mobile (UMPC, not MID) img.  Any 
<juliux> hey ogra are you around?
<NCommander> davidm, still on call?
<davidm> Almost off
<davidm> (finally)
<NCommander> :-)
<davidm> NCommander, I am off the phone with no further calls scheduled so how may I help you?
<theidealist> ï»¿Hello anyone, new to ubuntu-mobile, was wondering if anyone in the chat now had a good sense of the UMPC boot process.  I've got a custom compile of qemu I'm trying to run it on.  I'm wondering what root and/or boot params I need to pass it (a grub menu.lst file would be great).  My qemu is booting with coreboot and FILO as the bootloader.  I've managed to get other distros to boot but am having problem with the mobile (UMPC, not MID) img.  A
<theidealist> I am able to get into a busybox ash shell in the initramfs
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-22
<playya_> i asked chris lord if he will continue packaging o-hand stuff for ubuntu
<persia> Thanks.
<playya_> persia, contacts and dates might be a good replacement for evolution on small displays
 * Hobbsee gets out and pushes this upload
<Hobbsee> with a bit of luck, it might build on armel though now ;)
<Hobbsee> bah.  it doesn't.
<persia> playya_, I think MID uses contacts and dates already.
<Hobbsee> ogra: now I see why you were so happy to give rss-glx away.
<ogra> heh
<ogra> well, i can take it back if you want 
<Hobbsee> ogra: well, i've run into a few different build failures. By now, i'm hoping to see it through to completion - or file a removal bug, due to it being a pain in the neck :P
<ogra> did it build on the standard arches ? 
<Hobbsee> nope
<ogra> bah
<Hobbsee> first there was the libtool mess (which took a few incarnations, as i'd never done that before - at least i've learned something now!), then there was the freeglut borkage, and now there's the Wand breakage.
<ogra> hmm, i only see the libtool stuff in the build log
 * StevenK mumbes things about PPA
<Hobbsee> well, you have to fix the libtool failure before the rest becomes obvious, right?  ;)
<Hobbsee> if configure never runs, it never barfs.
<ogra> right :)
<Hobbsee> ;)
<ogra> ah, you do it in a PPA
<Hobbsee> well, I was, as i'd been lazy and not set up a build environment yet.
<Hobbsee> and the ppas are sitting idle atm.
<Hobbsee> or, almost idle.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> well, as i said, if it gets you to upset, just dump them back on me 
<Hobbsee> well, i've spent sufficient time on it now that I do want to get it fixed :P
<Hobbsee> but, thanks
<ogra> screensavers are never fun to package
<Hobbsee> i touched that package before, without ill effects!
<ogra> if you get bad dreams, just tell me :)
<Hobbsee> ogra: pkg-config is never getting called in the configure, but adding PKG_CONFIG="/usr/bin/pkg-config" to the ./configure section in debian/rules does make it build.  What's an equivalent rune for configure.in, as i presume such a hack in debian/rules is a bad solution?
<ogra> as long as you make it build with it 
<ogra> i doubt there is a debian policy that forbids running pkg-config from debian/rules
<StevenK> ogra: No, you need to specify pkg-config in the environment, configure doesn't go looking for it is the problem
<ogra> which adding PKG_CONFIG="/usr/bin/pkg-config" apparently does
<ogra> though i agreee it would probably be worth a look at pkg-config
<ian_brasil> if i was to summarise treb it would be something like a file handler for displaying office files by converting them into pdf through oo running headless 
<ian_brasil> ?
<Hobbsee> ogra: a look at how?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-11-23
<persia> ian_brasil: I'd call it an office file viewer, personally.  apt-cache show treb will give you the standard description.
<Ze_> I'm having some troubles with HAL with touchscreens , since I saw ogra's blog post I thought this might be the place to ask around how to get a serial touchscreen to work
<persia> Ze_, It's a good place to ask, but sometimes there's extremely long lag.
<Ze_> ]
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-11-19
<zumbi> hi
<MatthewMetzger> First time here. I'm looking for a MID device. Anyone own the SmartQ 5? Recommendations for devices to run Ubuntu MID on?
<lool> MatthewMetzger: We dont do Ubuntu MID anymore
<MatthewMetzger> What's the current mobile Ubuntu version?
<MatthewMetzger> what devices does it run on?
<MatthewMetzger> lool: what's the mobile distribution now and what devices does it run on? 
<lool> MatthewMetzger: For karmic we did moblin remix, UNR and ARM stuff
<lool> The first two would run on i386 and the ARM stuff was Ubuntu desktop on a) freescale imx51 and b) marvell dove
<MatthewMetzger> lool: Is there a device list anywhere or do I just have to dig to see if a device has either of these processors? Do you have a favorite device?
<lool> MatthewMetzger: It's really developer hardware for the ARM stuff; hard to get and expensive
<lool> MatthewMetzger: UNR and moblin remix (developer preview) work on any i386 though
<lool> You do need OpenGL support in both cases though
<MatthewMetzger> I have Ubuntu Netbook Remix 9.10 installed on a Dell Latitude D420 and I like it. But I'm looking for a touch screen device just a bit bigger than an iPod Touch. Any recommendations?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-11-20
<tehHova> good morning all
<tehHova> anyone in here?
<tehHova> ok then
<tehHova> bunch of tards
<bspencer> in a debian package can I list dependencies as libraries as opposed to package names, and have the libraries resolved by the pkg manager ?
<bspencer> i'm working on packaging apps for the intel app store.  One goal is to be able to create a single DEB package that would install on multiple Moblin-compliant DEB distributions, yours being one.
<bspencer> but ubuntu package names sometimes differ from other DEB distros, so I'd like to list the dependencies in the packages as libraries
<lool> bspencer: Usually, you install ELF binaries in your packages and they have ELF dependencies on the ELF libraries you need; dh_shlibdeps then generates deps on real packages from these
<bspencer> lool: hello my friend
<bspencer> hope all is well 
<lool> All is well; how about you?
<bspencer> thx good.  
<bspencer> If I create a control file, I can or can't put libraries in the "Depends" field?
<bspencer> how do I specify my dependencies?
<lool> You should put ${shlibs:Depends} in Depends:
<lool> And dh_shlibdeps will do the right thing
<bspencer> so I could put:
<bspencer> Depends:  ${shlibs:libarchive.so.1} libwww-perl, acme-base (>= 1.2) ${shlibs:libapr-1.so.0}
<bspencer> where libwww-perl is the pkg, but libarchive.so.1 is the library  (just pulling random)
<lool> bspencer: No, it's literally "${shlibs:Depends}"
<bspencer> ah, and then it scans my app and determines the dependencies for me
<lool> bspencer: dh_shlibdeps will generate "shlibs:Depends" from the installed libs and the ELF deps
<lool> Yes
<bspencer> snazzy
<bspencer> and it will pull in the packages and prompt the user
<bspencer> at install time
<bspencer> ok.  I'll play with that
<bspencer> is shlibs a Canonical-specific tool?
<bspencer> or Debian standard
<lool> Prompt the user?
<lool> bspencer: This is Debian policy stuff
<lool> bspencer: You might want to look at existing packages perhaps?
<bspencer> thx
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-11-21
<mblietrackinghow> mobile tracking site?
