#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f 2012-05-07
<highvoltage> any comments from IRC? we're listening :)
<bobweaver> What if the people turn you down at debian mentor saying that you "have a lot too learn " what too do ?  Just keep truckin ?
<iulian> We can use the mailing list instead of having a regular IRC meeting. We had those back in the days if I recall correctly and we stopped doing them in favour of sending emails to the mailing list when we actually had something to say.
 * iulian nods.
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Other | MOTU BOF Session  | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
<bobweaver> I can not seem too find link but this is what was said too me  "ubuntu devs have pointed you here because they do not want to babysit you "  then I talked about debian/control file and using dpkg-query -l to make a DEPENDS list and then compair I was told not too do that and I have alot too learn then no one talked too me after that no matter how many questions I asked.still looking for log on irc.debian.net #debian-ment
<bobweaver> or
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Other | MOTU BOF Session | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20676/other-q-motu-bof/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
<iulian> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings/Minutes
<iulian> The last meeting was 3 years ago by the way.
<bobweaver> I said something at the ubuntu open week about video tutorials (aka and how I would shave my head if there is new videos)  what if there was like a checklist of things that help with the prosses of join motu and also learning at the same time. kill 2 birds with one stone. just a suggestion
<sladen> highvoltage: (comments from IRC?)  move closer to the microphones :)
<highvoltage> sladen: ok
<komputes> hi sladen! :-)
<EpikVision> bobweaver: video tutorials are favorable!
<bobweaver> I what about a question and answer forum when joining the mailing list ? also where is this mailing list ?
<broder> bobweaver: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu is the mailing list
<bobweaver> thanks broder
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<bobweaver> QUESTION: as beeing someone that is new is there a check list anywhere like start from here and go too here then learn this ect ?
<sladen> thank you
<sladen> bobweaver: -> probably best to pop along to #ubuntu-motu
<bobweaver> will do sladen
<sladen> bobweaver: (although probably laggy *during* as people are otherwise occupied
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<sladen> bobweaver: but things should pick up again people get home and sleep off their jetlag too
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<sladen> what's wrong with the bar /this/ time?
<sladen> just too expensive, or not open yet?
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<bobweaver> thanks every one you all are awesome !
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 * EpikVision grins
<EpikVision> ok
<iulian> Later.
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<desrt> is anyone on IRC leading this session?
<desrt> nobody present locally knows what we're supposed to be talking about
<sladen> desrt: I think wendar(?) is talking?
<desrt> (and the topic seems quite similar to what we discussed in the last session upstairs)
<desrt> let's wait until :05
<desrt> Pendulum: are you leading?
<desrt> i think nobody is coming to lead the session
<desrt> so we will not have it
<sladen> desrt: ah, I'm on the wrong stream, D'oh
<Faqtotum> why is this ballroom empty?
<Faqtotum> is the session canceled?
<jtaylor> 21:03 <desrt> i think nobody is coming to lead the session
<jtaylor> 21:03 <desrt> so we will not have it
<Faqtotum> oh ok
<Faqtotum> thanx
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<wookey_> well said infinity! :-)
<wookey_> telling everying to get an external drive
<wookey_> SD sucks
<wookey_> And thus do real installs
<wookey_> I alwyas thought it was crappy :-)
<wookey_> what does ubuntu use for installing? Debian-installer or something else?
<rsalveti> debian installer
<wookey_> OK
<wookey_> both live image and pre-installed need qemu support. right?
<wookey_> I thought that was how we prepared them?
<rsalveti> wookey_: we'd support qemu as well, but atm we're using native image builds
<wookey_> OK. fine.
<wookey_> I was just wondering if there was an aarch64 server issue
<wookey_> (no qemu there)
<chihchun__> question - we will still have different images for different platforms, right? not one live image for all arm platform
<wookey_> july, but I'm not saying what year
<rsalveti> +1
<chihchun__> what kind of medium we expected for the installer? bootable cd or sd card? (some boards has only sd card, and no enough flash storage)
<rsalveti> sd card only
<chihchun__> so installer in sd card, and install rootfs in sd card?
<rsalveti> rootfs later on the usb disk
<rsalveti> the user would be able to use the board at the live session
<wookey_> Only a USB key, which isn;t much of an investment
<rsalveti> and then if he wants to really use and install ubuntu, they would need the external usb device
<rsalveti> yeah
<chihchun__> then the installer need to take care of the boot loader configurations
<rsalveti> we're kind of dealing with this anyway already
<rsalveti> thanks for the session folks
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<larrypg> #ubuntu-uds-room-201ball
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f 2012-05-08
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<NMinker> hello Ubuntu Developer
<Resistance> greetings, developers!
<erappleman> greetings all
<Resistance> you know some of you arent being heard very well over the audio stream right?
<erappleman> are there any improvements planned for ureadahead?
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<erappleman> D:
<erappleman> that's not true
<shirgall> For some reason the session is marked as 16:15-17:00 in Launchpad, even if it is on now... something did not propagate/
<NMinker> I've had CPU issues with compiz and Nautilus on my (single core) netbook (which has had Ubuntu on it since Maverick)
<shirgall> Boot speed relevant here too or just login?
<NMinker> login
<shirgall> Rats, I don't get to complain about btrfs. :)
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<mpt> "Held back" = kept on the version from the previous Gnome release?
<mterry> mpt, yeah, we're going to track 3.6 again
<mpt> ok, I just wasn't familiar with that term
<mpt> Will PolicyKit prompts in 3.6 still work fine outside of gnome-shell?
<mterry> mpt, yeah :) we used it in the sense of keeping on the same GNOME version
<seb128> mpt, yes
<mpt> ok
<seb128> what we have now is not actively maintained but not going away either
<mpt> I'd like launchpad-integration to die
 * cyphermox happily rips it out of e-d-s :)
<mpt> \o/
<mpt> An xkill-like "Contribute to this program" would work for programs that don't necessarily have menu bars
<mpt> "This session is brought to you today by these fine executables..."
<mpt> System Monitor already matches processes to applications
<mpt> (maybe heuristically, I don't know
<mpt> )
<mpt> I could publish a sketch of what a Contribution Indicator might look like (reviewed by ted if he's interested), and anyone inspired (like the people who've talked about a "community indicator" in the past) could pick it up
<mpt> Is that GTK2? If so, that software-center might be a false positive
<mpt> There's still a GTK2 UI in the tree
<mpt> or maybe I don't know what I'm talking about
<seb128> mpt, it doesn't seem to come from s-c itself
<mpt> ok
<mpt> Update Manager uses aptdaemon already
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<mpt> Requests for what, sorry?
<mpt> excellent
<mterry> mpt, gnome-policykit changes
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<mpt> I'd love to work with someone on that
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<mpt> That's what Google said
<mpt> Requiring people to opt in to recommendations to make a purchase would be one way of reducing the number of purchases.
<mpt> ok.
<mpt> no, that's not what opting in means
<mpt> Opting in to recommendations means clicking "Turn On Recommendations" in the Recommendations box
<mpt> ---
<mpt> Fake reviews: That's one of the uses of the "Inappropriate?" link
<noodles775> Most of the reviews awaiting moderation that I can see are for either "Contains inaccuracies" or "Offensive language", but most non-English (I guess all the nearly all the English ones have been moderated).
<noodles775> FWIW: Top non-en languages (num awaiting moderation): es (67), de (26), fr (34), ru (21)
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<hyc> Hello room
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<wookey_> binary drivers! buuurn him
<wookey_> especially as noveau works nicely these days
<wookey_> so this is why the cups upstart job has some fooage waiting for the socket to appear - we're using that for 'ready indicator'?
<wookey_> I had upstart fail to kill cups process today
<wookey_> good :-)
<wookey_> I filed a bug
<xnox> link?
<wookey_> looking :-)
<wookey_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cups/+bug/996585
<udsbotu> Launchpad bug 996585 in cups (Ubuntu) "cups (1.5.0-8ubuntu6) upgrade to precise fails: invoke-rc.d: initscript cups, action "start" failed" [Undecided,New]
<wookey_> not particularly relevant to your disucssion
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<wookey_> it _is_ 1am
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<highvoltage> win 24
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f 2012-05-09
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 * webm0nk3y waves
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<thisfred> I hear you!
<webm0nk3y> BOO!
<thisfred> ok
<webm0nk3y> this is like a bad movie about a radio that listens to the past
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<webm0nk3y> thisfred: this is much better than being at UDS since pants are optional this way
<thisfred> They aren't at UDS? That explains a lot, in retrospect
<webm0nk3y> thisfred: refresh it
<thisfred> hi
<Chipaca> HELLO!
<Chipaca> we do not have to answer that
<Chipaca> T minus three minutes
<webm0nk3y> stuart used the 'S' word
<thisfred> that's fine
<thisfred> we just won't sing together
<Chipaca> somebody is writing to the eww one dee bee!
<thisfred> 40
<j-johan-edwards> Hey, while everyone's shuffling around... are there any plans to make dconf syncable over Ubuntu One?
<Chipaca> j-johan-edwards: there are plans
<Chipaca> j-johan-edwards: they are not our plans
<__lucio__> piing! :)
<achuni> __lucio__: long
<Chipaca> __lucio__: hi :)
<achuni> pong
<thisfred> gnap
<j-johan-edwards> Cool.
<Chipaca> "syncing settings" session, yesterday pm
<Chipaca> there's a etherpad and whathaveyou
<webm0nk3y> Chipaca: I would like to know when u1db will have Linq support so i can integrate it with my windows apps
<Chipaca> webm0nk3y: it has already
<Chipaca> webm0nk3y: in python, from u1db.HELLNO import JUSTNO
<jono> aquarius: you suck
<jono> aquarius: you suck
<Chipaca> aquarius: go go go
<Chipaca> the "jangle bells" release
 * webm0nk3y loves quizes
<__lucio__> we did write some software, though
<Chipaca> __lucio__: he's getting there (by the time you said that, he already had :) )
 * __lucio__ shutups
<thisfred> except couchdb
<Chipaca> couchdb is explicitly nonconformant
<webm0nk3y> :)
<__lucio__> its not 100% defines yet
<__lucio__> we will kill tombstones after a while
<__lucio__> that would break incremental sync for dbs that have diverged a long time ago
<__lucio__> Chipaca, can we get a link to the notes please? so we can follow from here?
<thisfred> document.content is always a json string, I just looked that up
<Chipaca> thisfred: thanks
<Chipaca> __lucio__: you mean the slides?
<__lucio__> Chipaca, yes
<Chipaca> __lucio__: NO.
<Chipaca> :)
<thisfred> we may add implementation specific helpers that are not part of the official API to make devs lives easier, but we have not, so far
<Chipaca> the slides are at http://ubuntuone.com/5KKNLvpKe76zgRBmdyFen5
<Chipaca> we are now on slide 75
<Chipaca> ok, so 6
<__lucio__> thanks
<thisfred> oauth2 ftw
<thisfred> hi
<Chipaca> thisfred: he's belittling your work, i think
<thisfred> I saw his todo app code ;)
<thisfred> just works
<thisfred> it's qt
<thisfred> PYTHONPATH=. python u1todo/ui.py
<thisfred> It's beautiful!
<webm0nk3y> holy cow stop the dinging!
<webm0nk3y> and an angel gets its wings!
<__lucio__> txstatsd ftw
<achuni> what happens if I get http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/978324/
<achuni> I guess that's when I pressed "sync", but I'd need to check
<__lucio__> achuni, do you have u1 set upin that machine?
<thisfred> achuni: do you have an ubuntu one account configured?
<achuni> ding!
<achuni> possibly not
<thisfred> achuni: because it gets the oauth tokens from there
<achuni> right
<thisfred> this is just for the demo purposes
 * achuni signs in
 * achuni tries again
<thisfred> You can use hashtags in the todo items as well
<achuni> wiii
<webm0nk3y> thisfred: where's the script everyone is using
<achuni> thisfred: __lucio__ txs that was it
<thisfred> webm0nk3y: what script?
<webm0nk3y> oh
<thisfred> webm0nk3y: bzr branch lp:u1db
<webm0nk3y> oops that's what i mean
<thisfred> webm0nk3y:  then PYTHONPATH=. python u1todo/ui.py
<__lucio__> sync is very cheap if nothing changes, we are discussing change notifications, but thats hard to do cross platform
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<thisfred> aquarius can you turn the pinging off?
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<webm0nk3y> if the sound goes off, the who cares about u1db?
<thisfred> lucio: achuni filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/u1db/+bug/997235 will fix soonish
<udsbotu> Launchpad bug 997235 in U1DB "u1todo: handle the case where the user does not have u1 oauth tokens in the keyring" [Medium,Triaged] - Assigned to Eric Casteleijn (thisfred)
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<thisfred> I filed that I mean
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<thisfred> yes we do
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<webm0nk3y> udsbotu: sure
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<thisfred> indexes are the non trivial part
<thisfred> to the bar!
<__lucio__> thank you
<webm0nk3y> ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
<webm0nk3y> weeek
<thisfred> ttyl
<webm0nk3y> the ringing idea was awesome
<thisfred> a delight
<webm0nk3y> it's like the idea of making a game out of recycling
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<diwic> ++
<diwic> hi tiwai!
<tiwai> Hi
<diwic> glad you could make it :-)
<diwic> tiwai, do you have audio up and running as well (we're currently quite silent in the room)?
<tiwai> No.
<tiwai> I can't hear anything now.
<tiwai> BTW, any slides available public already?
<diwic> tiwai, no, no slides - this is just discussion, you're meant to listen using the audio stream
<tiwai> diwic: OK.
<diwic> tiwai, I'll start by introducing hda-emu to the audience here, you can try to set up audio in the mean time
<diwic> tiwai, let me know if you get audio up and running
<tiwai> diwic: I can hear you talking.
<tiwai> sorry for informing late.
<diwic> tiwai, excellent :-) Do you have any comments or anything to add?
<tiwai> it'd be great if we can build up a good database of dump files.
<tiwai> that'll be valuable for all people.
<tiwai> actually, alsa-info.sh output also gathers a kind of BIOS information.
<tiwai> It shows DMI strings, the initial pin setups from sysfs.
<tiwai> the proc file isn't complete, so alsa-info.sh output is still preferred.
<tiwai> but i don't mind the form of db.
<tiwai> I just gathered in git tree in a plain directory, but it doesn't scale, certainly.
<tiwai> no preference from my side.
<tiwai> i just want to keep the text as text.
<tiwai> or braindead?
<roadmr_uds> Language: http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/
<tiwai> alsa-info.sh shows only vendor and product DMI strings, indeed.
<tiwai> We can extend it easily, though.
<tiwai> Yeah, BIOS version sounds good.
<tiwai> BTW, what I'd like ask you guys in addition is to collect alsa-info.sh or equivalent in the bug tracker.
<tiwai> laupchpad has already many piece of information, but it can't be fed to alsa-info.sh, so far.
<tiwai> we'd need either a tool to quilt these pieces or enhance the bug tracking to collect alsa-info.
<vanhoof> tiwai: not sure if you have the notes up
<vanhoof> tiwai: we were chatting on having bios info included in alsa-info.sh
<vanhoof> was also thining system-version, and system-product-name as well
<tiwai> vanhoof: yeah, these strings look reasonable.
<tiwai> alsa-info.sh is a simple bash script, so feel free to hack it :)
<vanhoof> tiwai: diwic is giving us a quick demo of hda-emu :)
<vanhoof> tiwai: ack, will send some patches your way for those if you're interested in the same data
<tiwai> vanhoof: thanks, it'd be appreciated!
<cr3_> vanhoof: when adding dmi info to alsa-info, we should make sure this still works on arm assuming that alsa-info runs on arm in the first place
<tiwai> cr3_: good point.
<tiwai> we recently fixed alsa-info.sh to be runnable without lspci, for example.
<cr3_> tiwai: last I ran lspci on arm, it segfaulted :) I'm not sure it's installed anymore, at least by default
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<diwic> cr3_, patches welcome ;-)
<cr3_> I believe hexr requires commands like lspci, dmidecode, etc. so, we might want an action item to add arm support to hexr
<tiwai> most of dmi strings can be taken from sysfs directly.
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<cr3_> tiwai: exactly, I feel uncomfortable pimping my wares, but checkbox hardware gathering uses udev and sysfs that works on arm already
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<roadmr_uds> +1 on checkbox wares
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<tiwai> yeah, good to hear from you guys, first of all.
<tiwai> it'd be really great if we can cooperate for db and automated testing.
<tiwai> i'm open for any changes in hda-emu, so just speak up any problems :)
<tiwai> thanks!
<cr3> cheerio folks!
<diwic> thanks everyone, bye!
<NMinker> yeah
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<SpamapS> o/
<SpamapS> https://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/query
<SpamapS> upstart always gets things perfectly right
<SpamapS> :)
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<SpamapS> I know at least 2 "ruby kids" here in LA who use images as a form of config management. :-/
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#ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f 2012-05-10
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<cody-somerville> Are different flavours able to queue up builds themselves or is there a bottleneck on a subset of people with necessary permissions to do that?
<cody-somerville> Does introducing new images still require modifying the actual image build infrastructure code? Or is that stuff abstracted entirely into config files?
<cody-somerville> Why is that necessary to accomplish that 5 minute target? PES could probably do that currently based on your current number of ISOs.
<cody-somerville> (with ARM being the exception)
<cody-somerville> RAM doesn't provide that much gain over large disk cache
<cody-somerville> PES has info about hardware and the diminishing returns.
<cody-somerville> Hello?? :(
<cody-somerville> +1 to smagoun.
<cody-somerville> If we do use launchpad-buildd, I strongly suggest we use some sort of API instead of tightly coupling
<cody-somerville> so that for example Offspring could sub in different 'farm provider' such as launchpad-buildd
<cody-somerville> and more importantly that launchpad-buildd doesn't become a hard dependency of Ubuntu's image build infrastructure
<cody-somerville> good question!
<cody-somerville> Note that using those buildds use resource that are shared currently with PES
<cody-somerville> We can't use the launchpad-buildd farm for image building because there is no interface for us to do that.
 * cody-somerville wonders if people are reading this. :P
<tumbleweed> cody-somerville: we are
<tumbleweed> at least half the fishbowl just was
<cody-somerville> +1 on that
<cody-somerville> ugh. sound is breaking up :(
<cody-somerville> haha
<cody-somerville> so... why not just use cloud again?
<cody-somerville> Yes. Why not just use openstack?
<cody-somerville> ju ju could setup a guest easily as needed
<cjwatson> Because the load of package building and the load of image building complement each other perfectly, and therefore it makes economic sense to use the same farm for both; which is already effectively a private cloud attached to LP.
<cjwatson> There'd be nothing wrong with extending the LP build farm with cloud instances, but we want it attached to LP.
<cody-somerville> Do they really complement? I'm not so sure about that since PES uses that hardware too on a different schedule.
<cjwatson> For Ubuntu, yes, absolutely.
<cjwatson> Very well.
<cody-somerville> lp-buildd is generally pretty busy. IT has problems doing what it already does. Why are we investing in it to do another task? It sames very odd to me when we're pushing things like ju ju and openstack.
<cody-somerville> We already have hardware running ANOTHER cloud that is more versatile to do what we want.
<cody-somerville> you're going to run into the limitations of lp-buildd
<cody-somerville> and then it's going to require additional investment
<cjwatson> The nature of the set of machines attached to the farm is orthogonal to the code running on them (launchpad-buildd).
<cody-somerville> and there is huge overhead to doing lp development
<cjwatson> UE already does most of the lp-buildd maintenance withouot huge overhead.
<cjwatson> It's split out of LP these days (you may not have realised that).
<cody-somerville> It isn't a cloud. It is not elastic. You have one to one per machine. It is a service. Just using virtualization doesn't make it a cloud IMHO.
<cody-somerville> it's 'cloud-like'.
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, Ok. Neat. Maybe PES should look at using it then if it's split out
<cjwatson> But you could easily make the "machines" attached to it be cloud instances.
<cody-somerville> That's not true
<cody-somerville> re: slower
<cody-somerville> not true. not true.
<cjwatson> (Note that launchpad-buildd is the name of the client, not the buildmaster.)
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, do you guys intend to use buildmaster?
<cjwatson> Ask Adam
<cody-somerville> He isn't here in this channel
<cody-somerville> stgraber, that isn't true
<cody-somerville> paral builds
<cody-somerville> we have hard data
<cody-somerville> packages work load is different story (since packages have more variable workload)
<cjwatson> FWIW it is not true that lp-buildd (in the distro pool) has problems doing what it already does); we're well within capacity right now, and adding livefs builders doesn't look likely to introduce a problem; rather the contrary.
<cjwatson> The PPA pool may be a different story, but we don't care about that for this purpose.
<cody-somerville> Adam: Do you guys intend to use builddmaster?
<cody-somerville> I'm more opposed to builddmaster than the lp-buildd bit
<cody-somerville> did they fix the bottleneck with uploading the results?
<cjwatson> I've never even noticed it
<cody-somerville> it was synchronous
<cody-somerville> you'll def start noticing it when uploading a bunch of 700mb+ image instead of just packages
<cody-somerville> so I can believe that getting lp-buildd to do livefs builds is pretty easy but whats the estimate for the rest of changes needed in LP?
<cody-somerville> and is the LP team willing to accept it?
<cody-somerville> (with their no LOC increase policy)
<cjwatson> There's lots of LOC easily removable from LP
<cjwatson> (offsetting)
<cjwatson> I'm happy to direct Adam at possibilities :-)
<cjwatson> (I'm on about -900 LOC personally since the new policy)
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<cody-somerville> (also, re: offspring, there is more to it than just ui and build dispatch. There is also an abstraction around the build tool and common behaviour. the dispatch stuff is probably the least interesting bit so I'm certainly open to seeing we can use lp-buildd and builddmaster OR look at exploring possibilities of more ju-ju/openstack solution that UE might look to migrate to later )
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<cody-somerville> Not sure if someone already answered this but question from start: Does introducing new images still require modifying the actual image build infrastructure code? Or is that stuff abstracted entirely into config files?
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<cjwatson> The former, I'm afraid.  I was just having a conversation with smagoun about that; it's been a more sensible decision for us than it would have been for you (given that we add new image types maybe once a year, vs. once every two and a half minutes)
<cjwatson> It's in the category of "would be nice to improve, but not really a priority"
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<cody-somerville> cjwatson, Ack.
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<dpb_> hi all!
<cgregan> https://wiki.canonical.com/CoP/QA
<ara> hello?
<dpb_> hi
<ara> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/AutomatedTesting/UbuntuAutomationTestHarness
<ara> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-automation-test-harness
<dpb_> Maybe you said this earlier, but are you making use of juju and maas where appropriate?
<ara> Xpresser wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xpresser
<dpb_> hrmph too late
<ara> mmm, the wiki needs some update...
<roadmr_uds> hi gema
<ara> hey gema
<gema> hey!
<gema> dpb_: we will be using juju and maas where appropriate, we are actually starting to use maas on our lab next week
<dpb_> gema: cool!  I'll check it out when you get further.
<gema> dpb_: but we will also take into account that the tests may need to be run on low end hardware by some users, so we won't be prescriptive about the provisioning method
<dpb_> ok, that sneeze scared me
<cgregan> http://ubuntuone.com/3NcUIy76r5Et5jmYkhYwA3
<cgregan> http://ubuntuone.com/3OK0Dkmy9iOwm8WRgQMRz8
<roadmr_uds> ^^ video of xpresser at work (awesome)
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<wylde> yes
<AlanBell> morning all
<oCean> o/
<oCean> :D
<jussi> bah stream is breaking up :/
<jussi> It might clear up
<oCean> fine here
<wylde> no problem here.
<jussi> vlc
<oCean> parole
<jussi> lets see anywya
<jussi> you are doing great!
<jussi> I love it. ;)
<jussi> (stream has cleared up btw)
<jussi> What plans do we have for the better integration of LP/access lists?
<AlanBell> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ankl5FhsdSiZdGZVV2ZuLVRwa2c5M3pqX3BEaUhXMFE
<jussi> Have you talked to tsimpson about it yet? (we used to have a nice script for part of the process)
<jussi> There are legacy ircc people with founder access on some lists, you may also want to have a look at founders in the core chans.
<jussi> Thats another story altogether as he is the GC for those as well ;)
<jussi> council's which are responsible for certain areas should have founder access in those channels (ie. Kubuntu Council)
<Myrtti> your English is slipping
 * Myrtti slaps jussi with an UGG boot
<jussi> :/
<Myrtti> AlanBell: carry on.
<Myrtti> yay, I've made myself unavailable for selection for IRCC \o/
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil
<jussi> We need to be prodding those we think would make good people
<jussi> (re ircc applicants)
<Myrtti> there will be several applications, it's totally different thing will any of them be good.
<jussi> I agree with that, I had the same policy when I was in the ircc
<Myrtti> good thing that IRCC will review before sending short list to CC
<jussi> ircc sends full list to cc
<Myrtti> oh dear.
<Myrtti> oh good.
<jussi> cant we just steal pleia2 as the last ircc member? :P :D
<pleia2> :P
<Faqtotum> i second that
<jussi> kick her off the CC!! :D
<pleia2> haha
<jussi> I had some discussion earlier about pulling people into places temporarily as observers, to lessen the "intrigue" of things like ops and ircc. has there been any thought on that?
<jussi> I am talking about throughout the cycle, for set periods of time
<jussi> ie. a 2 week "observation"
<oCean> into what places?
<AlanBell> into the ircc private channel that we don't really
<jussi> -ops -ircc depending on the person's current role
<AlanBell> use much
<LjL> (why don't we just open up -ops again once and for all)
<tsimpson> the main argument against removing the "no idling" policy in -ops is that we don't want to turn it into a spectator sport
<LjL> allow people to come in, without disturbing of course
<jussi> me also at the moment
<Myrtti> I need brainbleach, I was about to suggest a technical solution to a social problem
<LjL> i hate having to tell people "now you must leave, go away, bye" though :P unless they are trolls at least
<tsimpson> there's not a whole lot of point in having -ops open, as it is logged. the most someone will get is not to have to wait an hour for the logs to update
<Faqtotum> why not just +m?
<tsimpson> Faqtotum: see above :)
<tsimpson> also, that would make it difficult for people to join and get an issue solved
<LjL> AlanBell: often people come to -ops to inform us of things
<LjL> AlanBell: then they're told to leave
<tsimpson> loco team operators don't idle in -ops, they usually idle in -irc or -ops-team
<LjL> AlanBell: after a while, it gets a bit embarrassing for both parties
<Myrtti> Faqtotum: you have just suggested a technical solution to a social problem, which would probably cause more problems than it would solve
<tsimpson> -ops is for the core channels
<Faqtotum> i mean, there's a lot to be said for having everything open for all to see
<dax> I think leaving the current policy in place and enforcing it when there are issues rather than by default would work fine. "We reserve the right to remove idlers", rather than "no idling gtfo"
<LjL> (by the way my understanding of spoken english is quite bad, so i'm not able to follow everything you say)
<Sidewinder> Afterall there is always http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/
<LjL> dax: well sure, we'd of course reserve the right to remove troublemakers, like we do everywhere
<jussi> ++
<Myrtti> AlanBell: dingdingding
<Myrtti> you have won the internets
<LjL> AlanBell: yeah, that's true as well
<Myrtti> the problem with making those people ops though is that some people aren't necessarily aware of everything that goes with being an op
<Myrtti> as I mentioned in my email about the subject
<jussi> Which is why we have a probation perod
<dax> and some people don't want to be, and some aren't suitable ops, and some would be driven insane by it...
<tsimpson> some people also just don't want to be ops, just help us out by pointing things out (without calling ! ops)
<Myrtti> yeeeesss... but some people don't know about the amount of stress involved
<Myrtti> tsimpson: exactly
<LjL> tsimpson: well, it's also true that nobody is *forced* to ban anyone, i think you can be appointed as an op and acts as *you* feel is best, for yourself too...
<tsimpson> LjL: I just wouldn't want to make people feel like they either become an op, or don't join -ops to communicate something
<LjL> tsimpson: me neither! that's why i'd like an open -ops, to encourage that more :P
<tsimpson> LjL: I also don't want mediation to become a spectator sport, or have some odd +mz and +v combination that will just be hell to maintain :)
<Myrtti> exactly what we need, more channels and bureacracy to deal with.
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<tsimpson> we don't like automatic +o
<LjL> tsimpson: i'd just solve that by being firm about the fact that the ones with +v (the ops) are the ones supposed to mediate, and the others shouldn't intervene. remember -ops *used* to be open and we didn't really have huge trouble with that... i think we closed it mainly because we were afraid (maybe rightly, at the time) of actual attackers. but now we also have -ops-team for more private info
<tsimpson> the general freenode guideline is only use +o when you _need_ to
<tsimpson> otherwise it raises the "heat" of a channel
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<tsimpson> LjL: I remember those days too, that's how I got involved ;) so I agree with the principal
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<jussi> cant you just embed the irc in the same page as the etherpad?
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<Flannel> Can't that be solved by better documentation/upkeep on the summit pages afterwards?
<LjL> udsbotu: stop with the pressure!
<udsbotu> LjL: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<tsimpson> I miss Mr. T
<AlanBell> http://mumble.libertus.co.uk:9001/p/udspad
<jussi> Im glad you cant hear Elodi screaming :D
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<Myrtti> (mobile) accessibility needs to be assessed
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<Myrtti> I tend to leave my laptop when attending conferences and use my mobile instead
<Myrtti> and accessibility needs to be assessed anyway
<Flannel> looks like we've already solved the "I have to go find logs and do math on times" problem (see above, second link)
<Faqtotum> i am on my phone here, electing not to bring a laptop on public transit
<Faqtotum> as such, i'm in the irc sessions and not etherpad
<Faqtotum> having irc and etherpad open on a phone at the same time is just not practical
<Myrtti> "webirc"
<oCean> :)
<LjL> thanks
<oCean> cya
<jussi> I just hope for irc integration
<Sidewinder> Thank you guys/gals. :)
<Faqtotum> yw
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-f/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f.log
<jamespage> moring xranby
<xranby> jamespage: good morning
<xranby> di session start in 1h?
<xranby> do
<jamespage> xranby, yep
<jamespage> see you then
<xranby> great, yes see you as well have a good breakfast
<xranby> gnu_andrew: welcome
<gnu_andrew> xranby, thanks for the heads up :-)
<xranby> gnu_andrew: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20495/foundations-q-java7/   live notes will get scribbled down here, i think you need a launchpad account to see them
<xranby> gnu_andrew here is working at Red Hat and are heavily involved with bringing security fixes into IcedTea from OpenJDK and have done countless IcedTea releases during the last years
<nthykier> welcome
<gnu_andrew> nthykier, thanks
<gnu_andrew> The last date is Oct for OpenJDK 6 security releases
<nthykier> 2012?
<gnu_andrew> i.e. after the 12 June and 16 Oct releases, there will be no more from Oracle
<gnu_andrew> nthykier, yes 2012
<nthykier> ugh
<gnu_andrew> yeah this is why it's an issue, not just us being nasty :-)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Foundations | Transition the archive to Java 7 | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20495/foundations-q-java7/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
<xranby> doko: hi and welcome
<jamespage> everyone able to access the pad OK?
<nthykier> nope - I guess my membership of that etherpad group needs to be approved first >.>
<xranby> ok shall we start?
<jamespage> nthykier, I just poked to see if that can be done now
<jamespage> yes
<jamespage> OK - lets make a start - any late attendees this end can catchup
<xranby> for people listening in on audio try reconnect, the shoutcast server restarts every full hour
<nthykier> (who is the speaker, btw? jamespage?)
<doko> yes
<jamespage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Java7Default
<gnu_andrew> no access either
<xranby> is Ubuntu collaborating with the Fedora team to shake down Java7 FTBFS bugs?
<nthykier> A Lintian check for what exactly?
<nthykier> (sorry the sound is not the best)
<jamespage> nthykier, to check to see if the bytecode in a jar file is only compatible with Java 7
<jamespage> i.e. not backwards compatible
<doko> nthykier, for the byte-code format used; to make sure that everything is built for e.g. 1.5 or 1.6, not 1.7
<nthykier> should be trivial to do - there is some code for that already in javahelper
<jamespage> nthykier, are you aware of plans to switch default-java in Debian this release?
<nthykier> I am not aware of anyone doing it either, but having heard of the "security support" for Java6, I am considering to work on it
<gnu_andrew> nthykier, jamespage: I suggest liasing with Fedora who've already switched in F17.  They may have patches you can share.
<doko> usually Debian has a super set of the Fedora packages
<gnu_andrew> I know.  But doing the common subset again is silly.
 * gnu_andrew remembers only Debian had GNU Classpath and not Fedora :-)
<jamespage> agreed - and we will colloborate as much as possible to ensure work is not repeated
<gnu_andrew> and yes obviously the ideal is the upstream package has it :-)
<xranby> - #ARM ASM-interpreter and Thumb2 JIT ported to #OpenJDK 7u3 Hotspot 22, IcedTea 7 2.1.1 branch, by chrisphi, aph & adinn at Red Hat.
<jamespage> gnu_andrew, agreed
<xranby> - The only problem is that there  is no IcedTea 7 2.1.1 release planned by the icedtea team. Ubuntu are  currently providing a pre-release build for arm using this 2.1.1 branch.
<xranby> - The good news: the assembler port and thumb2 jit work https://docs.google.com/a/gudinna.com/spreadsheet/oimg?key=0ArR4FJuzvXEsdDZkek5QcXd3c2ROMm1IajE1WmFwYkE&oid=4&zx=edub54x8oark
<xranby> - all in all my, xranby,  experience is that the openjdk 7 using the arm portÂ Â  hits no regression  in usage compared to the openjdk 6Â Â  port.. so its sane to let  distributions default to it and keep working on tck convergence
<gnu_andrew> xranby, plan one :-)
<gnu_andrew> xranby, seriously I'd like one but don't feel qualified to say whether we are ready for one or not
<xranby> i have asked andrew haley (aph)  Andrew Dinn and Chris Phillips on how much work there is left to get openjdk7  on arm to be feature complete and pass TCK
<xranby> (14:03:59) aph_: xranby: I don't think that there are any really specific problems with the ARM port, except for the fact that hotspot is being constantly rewritten.
<xranby> (14:04:16) aph_: xranby: apparently permgen is due to be deleted altogether
<xranby> (15:50:09) ChrisPhi_:  I see zero  as having a lot of work to converge with jsr 292 / lambda and adopt some bytecode generation approaches, then we should be in maint mode.
<jamespage> xranby, thats great news - and agreed that its sane to use in the distro due to no regression against openjdk6 port
<xranby> the best part that have happened during the past cycle is that the arm port have passed the tck for openjdk 6
<xranby> and that is now actively maintained by 3+ people
<xranby> if we want more distributions to use the icedtea7 2.1.1 branch     then i can assign me to a workitem to do one release from that branch in this cycle
<xranby> this would create an official icedtea release with the included arm port
<doko> xranby, +1
<xranby> focus will be heavily switched to java 7
<xranby> i think we will drop support on the many parralel icedtea6 branches
<xranby> ideally we want icedtea7 2.1.1 branch to pass the tck before releasing it
<nthykier> yeah
<xranby> are calxeda pleased with the openjdk performance?
<doko> xranby, it's the 2.1 branch, 2.1.3 would be fine for this as well
<xranby> No
<jamespage> xranby, have we got access to TCK for Java7 yet?
<jamespage> :-(
<xranby> i do not have access to the tck
<nthykier> Do we have a "clear" picture of how "far" the Java6 -> Java7 transition is (in terms of FTBFS issues)
<xranby> its unclear if i can get access to it since it require signing a nda
<xranby> i will work closely on QA with the readhat team
<xranby> who have access to the tck
<xranby> Red Hat
<jamespage> xranby, great - I expect some people in Ubuntu will as well so hopefully we can help there as well
<doko> nthykier, jamespage had used some user tags for these, but can't remember which ones ;)
<doko> in addition to this, we'll need some gcj patches from trunk for these archs which don't have an openjdk
<nthykier> When will the "syncs calm down"?
<gnu_andrew> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Java7_Package_Rebuild_Status is the Fedora effort if that helps
<jamespage> nthykier, ~3weeks ish
<xranby> gnu_andrew: thanks
<doko> nthykier, they should already, but the merges need to be done
<gnu_andrew> doko, we don't even have 2.1.1 yet, steady on :-)
<doko> I didn't claim that
<jamespage> nthykier, we should have a better view by the end of this month
<doko> which maybe is a bit late for the debian freeze
<xranby> will ubuntu revert to debian armv4t+ for armel?
<nthykier> jamespage: unfortunately "the end of this month" is a little too close to the Debian freezy
<doko> xranby, no
<nthykier> s/freezy/freeze/
<jamespage> nthykier, OK - the implication being we won;t be able to land fixes back into Debian in the short term?
 * jamespage is not familiar with the debian release process
<gnu_andrew> today is the first I've heard of most of this.  It would be really helpful if we had more input on when/what releases are needed on distro-pkg-dev@openjdk.java.net
<nthykier> it will be difficult at best
<jamespage> nthykier, esp if they are to support something that is happening in Ubuntu that has no immediate impact in Debian I guess
<nthykier> yeah
<jamespage> gnu_andrew, what would make life easier?  a head up in advance on what we are doing for the next release as soon as WE know?
<nthykier> unless there is a "strong" driving force (e.g. the debian security team) pushing for Java7, I think it will next to impossible to get it in after the freeze starts
<jamespage> nthykier, OK - are they aware of the situation with OpenJDK6?
<doko> nthykier, unfortunately I didn't see this in the past
<nthykier> don't know if they are
 * jamespage adds an action
<gnu_andrew> jamespage, yeah, and if you need/would prefer a release of some branch
<gnu_andrew> doko, nthykier: I doubt Debian wants to be doing their own security support for 6, especially given the limited resources they seem to have on it
<xranby> on testing: do we have openjdk tests running on top of the ubuntu   OHIO? test QA framework?
<xranby> also .. can we provide preview releases using JuJu to get say openjdk8 running
<doko> OHIO?
<xranby> doko: whats the QA framework named that the QA team invented during the precise cycle?
<gnu_andrew> jamespage, currently I'm mostly shooting in the dark when it comes to releases, which isn't good
<jamespage> gnu_andrew, OK - I've actioned myself to talk to you about that...
<doko> xranby, the jtreg tests are run with every package upload, same for all third party java packages which provide a testsuite
<xranby> jamespage: ideally use juju to compile openjdk 8 from source and install it
<jamespage> xranby, possible -= fancy giving it a try?  I can help out
<gnu_andrew> jamespage, thanks, much appreciated!
<xranby> jamespage: yes i fancy giving it a shot
<xranby> to help bring the latest test releases into ubuntu fast
<xranby> of openjdk
<xranby> i will pass the question to gnu_andrew
<xranby> opebnjdk 8 have some interesting new features
<xranby> like jigsaw
<gnu_andrew> xranby, that's another good point.  I'd like to see 8 moving out earlier so we don't have this issue again.
<gnu_andrew> especially as it will change much more than 7 did
<gnu_andrew> and getting Debian/Ubuntu's feedback on Jigsaw before it is stable and unchangeable is very important
<gnu_andrew> (Jigsaw is the module system for the JDK)
<xranby> Jigsaw uses .deb!
<xranby> (i think)
<nthykier> At least, Debian had a GSoC student on Jigsaw
<gnu_andrew> xranby, I've honestly lost track.  dalibor was dabbling with .deb at one point but we really need to get our hands dirty and find out
<gnu_andrew> biggest problem at the moment is so much work to do and too few hands on deck to be honest
<xranby> i would like to say
<xranby> if someone want to help out with a thumb2 -> arm port
<xranby> then we can get a jit running on a raspberry pi
<xranby> it would be a quite good work for a computer sciense student
<xranby> another qusetion
<xranby> question: is calxeda in the room?
<jamespage> no
<xranby> any comments on openjdk performance on their servers?
<xranby> ok
<xranby> is everything noted down in the pad
<xranby> cheers
<xranby> thank you for attending
<xranby> looking forward to a rapid openjdk adoption
<xranby> of new upstream openjdk releases
<xranby> thank you as well at #uds for a nice session
<xranby> and thank you gnu_andrew for giving the Fedora Red Hat input on things!
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 5 minutes left in this session!
<gnu_andrew> xranby, I wouldn't claim to represent Fedora.  I barely even use it ;-)  More upstream.
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 4 minutes left in this session!
<xranby> gnu_andrew: ok, thank you for correcting me..
<gnu_andrew> xranby, just don't want the responsibility as speaking for Fedora.  Nowhere near qualified :-)
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 3 minutes left in this session!
<xranby> last reminder: Use JamVM if you run into any issues with hotspot
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 2 minutes left in this session!
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<gnu_andrew> xranby, not cacao?
<xranby> and cacao
<xranby> of course
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: This session has ended.
<xranby> if you got a Raspberry PI use the cacao JIT: https://docs.google.com/a/gudinna.com/spreadsheet/oimg?key=0ArR4FJuzvXEsdDZkek5QcXd3c2ROMm1IajE1WmFwYkE&oid=3&zx=ipo09v1y3q53
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Cloud & Server | working session result of apt-improvements | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20760/servercloud-q-apt-improvements-working-session/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
<gnu_andrew> xranby, does http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20495/foundations-q-java7/ work for you?  Logged in via my account but just taking me round in circles
<xranby> gnu_andrew: yes it work for me
<xranby> i can paste you a summary
<xranby> gnu_andrew: http://fpaste.org/jkjV/
<SpamapS>  ______  _____ __   __            _____  _______
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<SpamapS> |  <     | |   |  __  |  > <  |  _ <  / /\ \    | |
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<SpamapS> Who is there? Nobody?
<SpamapS> Perfect! ^^
<doko> you are watched ;p
<ansgar> doko: But there is no video stream. How can you watch? :)
<SpamapS> We need Ben Howard and Robie Basak as well, I don't hear them
<smoser> hello?
<DonKult_uds> smoser: hello, where are you?
<smoser> i left session. i ddin't actually know this got scheduled.
<smoser> if you want to discuss, we can, i can come
<smoser> but i have no new information since wednesday morning.
<SpamapS> bring utlemming and rbasak
<smoser> k. i'll come down there.
<DonKult_uds> i haveâ¦ i didn't realized that another session was sheduled so started a discussion on dak -> https://lists.debian.org/debian-dak/2012/05/msg00006.html
<SpamapS> can perhaps be moved to the next hour.. there are not many sessions for 11:00 - 11:55
<SpamapS>        apt | 0.8.16~exp12ubuntu10 |       precise | source, amd64, armel, armhf, i386, powerpc
<SpamapS> not apt pinning
<SpamapS> host pinning
<SpamapS> We're giving mirror admins the *option* to run the hash generation if they update aggressively.
<ansgar> Requiring all mirrors to update seems not a good idea.  That might take quite a while.
 * mvo is now listening
<SpamapS> You can be atomic with 1 symlink mv atomicity and using hardlinks but nobody does that.
<SpamapS> Better to have the format intrinsically made to handle skew between fetch of different files.
<ansgar> You could also poulate a dists-new/ and then replace the old one.
<SpamapS> ansgar: right, thats the hardlink method (since storing two mirrors would be a bit wasteful)
<ansgar> Though it wouldn't help with clients that have the old Release and then get the new Packages. Which I believe what you want.
<mvo> I think if we can we should do both, right? improve the server side mirror script plus add code to apt to make it more robust
<mvo> if its orthogonal we should do both, right?
<ansgar> (I never get those hash mismatches btw. ;) )
<SpamapS> ansgar: We each do 100 apt-get updates a day during the dev cycle and we see them a lot.
<SpamapS> Right, multiarch added more files to fetch
<smoser> to re-iterate. we are interested in a solution.
<SpamapS> BTW, somewhat related data point.. work is beginning this cycle of Ubuntu to combine main and universe into just 'main' (support will be communicated via seeds, not component)
<mvo> sorry if I missed stuff, but dosn't option B with the timestamp/version in the http path fixes the proxy issue not too?
<mvo> i.e. it will be different for each Packages file, no?
<mvo> or am I missing something here?
<SpamapS> We helped w/ the squid issue in Ubuntu btw by setting Expires to teh same value for Release and Packages*
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 5 minutes left in this session!
<smoser> mvo, it would fix the proxy issue, yes.
<mvo> thanks smoser, so what is the problem with option (b) then? I'm not fully sure that I understand the current discussion? note that I'm not favoring one particular one, I just try to understand the issue
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 4 minutes left in this session!
<mvo> and also why do we need to change ever client? it would be libapt doing it, no?
<ansgar> mvo: debmirror and friends might need changes as well I assume. At least if they want to take advantage of it.
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 3 minutes left in this session!
<mvo> thanks, I think I understand
<SpamapS> Do we have actions from this btw? Or are the actions from the main blueprint enough?
<mvo> ok
<mvo> you could have a smart proxy that would ignore de.archive.ubuntu.com, archive.ubuntu.com etc as the hashsum is the only relevant piece
<mvo> that is pretty clever
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 2 minutes left in this session!
<mvo> ansgar: right, the mirror stuff is client work too
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 1 minute left in this session!
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<SpamapS> ok, actions: move discussion forward in mailing list, and develop PoC
<smoser> ansgar, you're right . debmirror would need improvements to know about either format acutally.
<smoser> but with by-hash, i can update my mirror without the upstrem mirror to me implementing it.
<smoser> (and keep the signed release)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-f/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f.log
<SpamapS> I added the work item for rbasak to http://pad.ubuntu.com/uds-q-servercloud-q-apt-improvements
<mvo> proof of concept for server? client? both?
<mvo> apt-get / apt-ftparchive?
<smoser> mvo both.
<mvo> cool
<SpamapS> I would think it has to be on both
<smoser> server is almost implemented in the ehterpad
<smoser> (ie, its really easy!)
<smoser> ansgar, mvo so, just so everyone here is clear, myself, and rbasak are most interestd in getting a solution.
 * mvo looks
<mvo> right, we are all on the same page I think :)
<mvo> we want to fix it too
<smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/976863/
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Foundations | Get LiveFS building happening on Soyuz buildds | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20489/foundations-q-livefs-in-soyuz/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
<mvo> I think at least the apt-get part is pretty simple too for by-hash (well, for both)
<mvo> a flag would be nice in the release file in both methods
<mvo> but I guess that is hard for the mirrors that have not converted
<ansgar> mvo: You need to check by downloading in any case.  You might have the new Release, but the mirror script might not mirror the new files.
 * mvo nods
<ansgar> Installers are also mentioned in Release. (A file with checksums actually.)
<ansgar> Would the schemes store those as well in by-hash?
 * mvo gtg
<SpamapS> its only the lists
<smoser> ansgar, i'm sorry, i didn't follow your question, i think/hope SpamapS did.
<SpamapS> by-hash/2029447895 does not instill as much confidence as by-hash/affaf8faf5a5f8a9cc9c99e9b9b9ffa70900aff76f6f
<SpamapS> crc32
<SpamapS> ftw
<SpamapS> ;)
<SpamapS>  ____________________________________
<SpamapS> / enough comedy, time to go to other \
<SpamapS> \ sessions! Cheers                   /
<SpamapS>  ------------------------------------
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<DonKult_uds> ansgar: thanks for coming on such a short notice! Any preference yet? ;)
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule is our release schdule
<smoser> ansgar, thank you.
<ansgar> DonKult_uds: Hmm, not yet.  I'm not sure what would be better to use for the mirrors (and I don't have much experience with the mirror part).
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 5 minutes left in this session!
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Community | Ubuntu App Developer Site incremental improvements | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20729/community-p-appdevelopers-site-incremental-improvements/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
<yaili_> hi
<yaili_> hi david
<yaili_> no worries :)
<dpm> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20729/community-p-appdevelopers-site-incremental-improvements/
<yaili_> I'd be happy to give feedback
<yaili_> yes
<yaili_> yeah, go ahead
<yaili_> "Consultancy" :D
<yaili_> makes sense, I think the idea in the first phase was to just get people going, so the focus on get started was more important
<yaili_> now that people might know the site, makes sense to make make news more prominent
<yaili_> I think it will need a bit of UX
<yaili_> I will add a note to the web team that would be good for a UX to look at it
<yaili_> ok, I'll talk to them on Monday, I'll present both options: a) we do it, b) someone helps us and we're feedback/help
<yaili_> sure
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: 5 minutes left in this session!
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<yaili_> thanks o/
<udsbotu> uds-gb-f: This session has ended.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-f/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f.log
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: Cloud & Server | Juju  upstart integration | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20511/servercloud-q-juju-upstart-integration/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
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<SpamapS> This is my dream session.. Don't take it away from me! Upstart and Juju in perfect harmony... ;)
<SpamapS> I printed out materials you can find them under your chairs...
<jamespage> ?
<SpamapS> Yes sort of
<SpamapS> I did not file this one
<SpamapS> The idea is to make sure that its really easy to use an upstart job in your charm
<SpamapS> Yeah, and I think we skipped this topic
<SpamapS> Its not really a 1 hour conversation...
<SpamapS> Just a "anybody have ideas on how to make it easy and/or encourage it"
<SpamapS> Upstart jobs are so simple..
<SpamapS> IMO upstart job is the obvious way to start a service deployed by a charm.
<SpamapS> Nor am I. :)
<SpamapS> Here's what I think.. we talked about "flag bearing charms" that implement all best practices. We can pick 1 or 2 that do it right, and make sure they're known as such.
<SpamapS> +1's all around?
<jamespage> +1
<SpamapS> The start/stop hooks are horribly misunderstood
<SpamapS> I think you just got it wrong ;)
<SpamapS> Even w/ an upstart job, you need to have the action required to start/stop it in start/stop hooks
<SpamapS> start/stop can be called w/o rebooting the machine
<SpamapS> No templates needed.. most jobs are 3 or 4 lines
<SpamapS> james hunt.. I have a question on a potential feature
<jamespage> so good examples and some extra information as comments in the hooks to help people understand what does what
<SpamapS> lxc containers cannot be run without network abstraction because of upstart's private netlink socket ...
<SpamapS> can we create some way for upstart to detect that it is running in a container that does not have network namespaced, and listen somewhere else?
<SpamapS> (this is unrelated to the blueprint topic)
<SpamapS> no, /sbin/init fails
<SpamapS> yes but only if your container has the network namespaced
<SpamapS> if you let the container inherit the host's networking, /sbin/init cannot listen on the netlink socket.
<SpamapS> AH
<SpamapS> ok, because we wanted to use LXC to contain juju units without namespacing the network, but we can't
<SpamapS> Ok, thought it was upstart's problem. Ok, thats all from me. :)
 * SpamapS un-hijacks the session
<SpamapS> For ~charmers .. grand-ballroom-a would be a good spot to go to see how ubuntu is unblocking their review/contributor processes
 * SpamapS goes there now
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* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/grand-ballroom-f/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f.log
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-grand-ballroom-f to: Track: QA | Ubuntu Automation Test Harness | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20522/qa-q-ubuntu-automation-test-harness/ | Audio: http://icecast.ubuntu.com:8000/grand-ballroom-f.ogg.m3u
<SpamapS> o/
<xranby1> i am having issues connecting to the icecast audio server
<SpamapS> sqlite does table locking, so multi-user will just be single threaded
<SpamapS> sounds good :)
<SpamapS> 1 year
<SpamapS> 8.04 == 2008 + 5 == 2013
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