#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-12
<humphreybc> hey daker, you around?
<daker> yep
<humphreybc> how's the quickshot going? And have you got around to fixing the planet?
<humphreybc> quickshot site*
<daker> yes for this week
<humphreybc> wicked
<humphreybc> almost finished the UMP site, just waiting to sort out some pictograms and I need to fix photoshop.
<daker> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek#The timetable
<humphreybc> yes, developer week is on
<daker> there is no django session ?
<humphreybc> no idea
<daker> youpi there is a session on Friday
 * daker doesn't know if he is ready to apply for a membership
<jenkins> hey
<dpm> hey :)
<jenkins> have you looked at the draft?
<dpm> jenkins, sorry for not having responded earlier, I've been away for a week and I've just come back today. I had a quick look at it and it looked great to me. Let me have another look now, I've also got some questions to you
<jenkins> no worries,
<jenkins> lp:~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-translations-quickstart/booklet  is the branch with it in
<vish> dpm: hi , which is the channel for ubuntu translations?
<dpm> vish, #ubuntu-translators
<vish> dpm: cool , thanks
<dpm> np :)
<humphreybc> oh look!
<humphreybc> it's David Planella!
<dpm> hey humphreybc :)
<humphreybc> hello!
<humphreybc> haven't talked since UDS
<nisshh> humphreybc: hey
<dpm> yeah, time flies :)
<nisshh> my sis just got a lovebird and its sitting on my shoulder
<humphreybc> nisshh: a lovebird??
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> like a budgy
<nisshh> a real bird
<humphreybc> good times
<nisshh> its good because its really quiet
<nisshh> doesnt swuak at all
<nisshh> skwark
<nisshh> oh whatever
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> be back soon
<dpm> jenkins, I've had another look at the draft, it look fantastic to me. That, plus some styling, was exactly what I was looking for. What would be the next step to basically make it look awesome?
<jenkins> dpm basically its what do you want changed and where
<dpm> jenkins, so shall I just make a list and add it as a reply to your e-mail?
<jenkins> that woul dbe great
<nisshh> dpm: who are you?
<jenkins> translations cordinator iirc
<dpm> nisshh, and you? :)
<vish> nisshh: https://launchpad.net/~dpm
<dpm> https://launchpad.net/~dpm
<vish> :)
<dpm> ah, vish beat me to it :)
<nisshh> ah
<nisshh> cool
<nisshh> i was like "who the hell is this guy he knows everyone!
<nisshh> "
<dpm> hahaha
<nisshh> dpm: https://launchpad.net/~nisshh
<dpm> nice to meet you then, nisshh :)
<nisshh> you too dpm :)
<dpm> jenkins, while I'm preparing that list of what I'd like changed in the booklet and where, I've got a couple of questions. I've got limited experience with docbook stylesheets, but I did try creating the PDF from the original docbook article. I tried the nwalsh stylesheet and also docbook2pdf. They were ok, but the images were scaled and looked just wrong with the nwalsh stylesheet and they just didn't appear on the docbook2pdf output. I'd like to play
<dpm> with the resulting PDF to understand what can be changed - what did you use to generate your draft PDF?
<jenkins> I converted the docbook to latex, then played with the scaling
<jenkins> dpm: if you look in the branch there is a *.tex file which has all the styles etc in
<dpm> jenkins, yeah, I saw the file, but I wasn't too sure how it was exactly used. So how do you do the conversion to latex and then to PDF?
<jenkins> I used dblatex but did a lot of minor tweeks, you need to install latex from the manual team ppa as per http://freakaboutlinux.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/tip-using-the-ubuntu-manual-projects-ppa/ . you then need to run two commands which i will look up
<jenkins> xindy -C utf8 -M texindy -L english ubuntu-translations-quickstart.idx
<jenkins> xelatex ubuntu-translations-quickstart.tex
<jenkins> that will build the pdf file
<dpm> awesome, I'll try that, thanks.
<jenkins> no worries shout if you need some help
<dpm> jenkins, so why does latex need to be installed from the PPA? is that a post-Lucid upstream version with bug fixes or new features, or modified by the manual team?
<jenkins> dpm: it is a version newer than lucid, I have not tried but you could try just installing the xindy, xindy-rules and cciocns  packages from the ppa and stick with the lucid stuff.
<dpm> ok, thanks, I'll try to play with it
<daker> hello
<trijntje> Hi, I recently noticed that the ubuntu-manual can be translated to dutch with open permissions. The ubuntu dutch translation team has been working on the manual for quite some time, so we were wondering if the permissions could be changed to "structured" to make sure our work is preserved
<jenkins> trijntje: I don't see why you can not change it there was a discussion on the mailing list about 6 months back, about it i will see if i can find it
<jenkins> trijntje: I checked the e-mail and feel free we decided people could change to structured if they wished
<trijntje> jenkins, thanks a lot for the information, ill send a mail to our team leader
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-13
<humphreybc> join #ayatana
<humphreybc> oops
<nisshh> jenkins: before you push any of your work on the dev manual to lp, grab the latest revisions ok?
<jenkins> nisshh: yep as always :)
<nisshh> jenkins: cool
<nisshh> jenkins: i did some restructuring of the code yesterday and i dont want the branch to break :)
<jenkins> cool, makes sense
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> aquarius: do you have a minute? i just have a few questions about what you had planned for the dev manual
<aquarius> nisshh, sure
<nisshh> aquarius: on the wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/10.10/DeveloperManual
<nisshh> you have listed a basic outline of the chapter
<nisshh> what i want to know is about the first point listed
<nisshh> "when to use desktopcouch"
<nisshh> aquarius: can you expand more on that?
<nisshh> im about to write the desktop couch chapter
<aquarius> OK. Have you seen the existing desktopcouch documentation?
<nisshh> some of it yes
<aquarius> essentially, I planned to do that, but in more detail and with more examples
<nisshh> aquarius: right
<aquarius> I planned to show how to add a new desktopcouch backend to an existing piece of software, and how to write a new program that used desktopcouch exclusively as its storage system
<nisshh> ah. yes
<aquarius> and talk a little about slipcover, and how to find out whether DC is replicating OK
<nisshh> slipcover?
<nisshh> aquarius: you were planning to base it off this?: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/desktopcouch/Documentation/SimpleGuide
<nisshh> ah, the slipcover app, right
<aquarius> yep, the simpleguide and the other DC documentation: there's some stuff in there about how DC works under the covers, which is probably not necessary in the Manual
<aquarius> but there is stuff in there explaining how to choose a database, what record types are for, and so on
<nisshh> right, thanks for clearing that up for me aquarius :)
<ChrisWoollard> ping godbyk
<alket> hi
<ChrisWoollard> hello
<jenkins> evening all
<ChrisWoollard> evening
<jenkins> hey ChrisWoollard
<jenkins> hows you?
<ChrisWoollard> good thanks
<ChrisWoollard> 'tis quiet here this evening.
<jenkins> yea, I think we are all busy as usual
<ChrisWoollard> I am going to work on some bugs in a bit.
<jenkins> I had noticed the bug mail filling my inbox :P
<jenkins> nice to see work being done
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<c7p> hello all
<zkriesse> hello c7p
<c7p> for about a half week the channel is pretty quite :-/
<daker> hi
<c7p> hi daker
<daker> dutchie, are you around ?
<daker> dutchie, https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual-website/+junk/ump-planet-theme
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-14
<hannie> I have a question on string 254:
<hannie> The \menu{Places} menu holds a list of commonly used folders (such as \menu{Documents}, \menu{Music}, \menu{Downloads}, and the \menu{Home Folder}).
<nisshh> hannie: yep
<nisshh> hannie: what about it?
<hannie> It says \menu{Documents}, etc
<nisshh> yea?
<hannie> But they are folders, not menus
<nisshh> ah
<hannie> Do you understand what I mean?
<nisshh> yea
<hannie> Is there a command \folder{Documents}, etc
<nisshh> i dont know
<nisshh> if there isnt, i would just remove the commands, and leave it as normal text
<nisshh> just keep the \menu{Places} one
<nisshh> hannie: try the folder command first, i dont know if there is one but try it
<nisshh> otherwise id just scrap it
<hannie> I'm not sure if it is wise to make a bug report on this
<nisshh> i dont think its needed
<hannie> ok, thanks for your reaction
<nisshh> np :)
<jenkins> morning
<nisshh> jenkins: hey
<nisshh> except its evening for me
<jenkins> hey nisshh
<jenkins> morning/evening/afternoon
<nisshh> hehe
<jenkins> please delete as appropriate
<nisshh> jenkins: iv been making good progress on the dev manual lately, there are nearly three chapters in the branch now
<jenkins> wow, you have been busy
<jenkins> i will get my chapters done soon, just been busy latly
<jenkins> we have been writing in us english right?
<nisshh> yes
<nisshh> well i have
<jenkins> cool, I will do as well
<nisshh> i havent had time to go through, lonewaises chapter yet
<nisshh> he is writing the indicators chapter
<jenkins> I have no clue on the inicators and how they work/how to make them
<nisshh> jenkins: yea, i know a little but not much more than you about them
<jenkins> what about the windicators?
<jenkins> are we doing those?
 * vish thinks writing a chapter for a non-existent thing-a-ma-gij , might be a waste of time :)
<vish> jig*
<nisshh> jenkins: no, we are not doing windicators, they arent even in 10.10 yet
 * nisshh agrees with vish 
<jenkins> O right I did not know they were not in mavrick, my download limit at home means no testing
<somethinginteres> hi all, I think I found a small mistake in the manual. Just a typo: Pg. 9 first sentence
<jenkins>  somethinginteres can you file a bug here please https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual , that way the editors can change it
<jenkins> daker: on the quickshot website is it possible to see what rounding the bottom left and right corners would look like?
<somethinginteres> jenkins: no problem
<jenkins> thanks somethinginteres
<daker> jenkins, i will show you something
<jenkins> cool
<somethinginteres> jenkins: is the manual included on the Ubuntu CD's by default? I think that would be a good idea - I wish I had've found this a few months ago :) I'd be happy to submit a brainstorm if you think that'd be a good idea
<jenkins> somethinginteres: I am glad you find it useful, it is not by default we would like it to be but there is the difficult task of how to deal with translations, feel free to add it to brainstorm
<somethinginteres> jenkins: OK, will do. Also, apparently the error I found is marked as "Fix Released" so no issue there :)
<jenkins> there is the system docs already on the ubuntu cd incase you did not know
<jenkins> thanks for looking though
<jenkins> dpm: how is your latex playing going?
<jenkins> what else needs doing to the guide?
<dpm> hey jenkins, actually quite well, I've just pushed a new revision of the quickstart guide using dblatex - I'm still meaning to come back to you, but I want to understand the tools well first :)
<dpm> here are my experiments:
<dpm> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~dpm/ubuntu-translations-quickstart/trunk/files/head:/output/
<dpm> one is the one you generated
<dpm> the other one generated from the docbook document with xsltproc + fop
<dpm> and the other one with dblatex
<dpm> I'd like to have only one source document, and I'd prefer it to be the docbook one, and the latex one just be an intermediate step
<jenkins> they look good, I found dblatex was ok to convert the main bulk of the text but not very good after that it uses their own style. I am yet to work out how to make dblatex uses custom styles
<dpm> jenkins, I'm using (very basic) custom styles with dblatex - have a look at the makefile and the stylesheet directories here:
<dpm> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~dpm/ubuntu-translations-quickstart/trunk/files
<jenkins> how well do custom styles work?
<dpm> I know how to use them now, but unfortunately my latex knowledge is limited :)
<jenkins> I don't know loads of it as the manual uses many custom commads, what are you trying to achive in latex?
<dpm> I'm just finding difficulties on the precedence of options set in the custom style file - some seem to be overriden
<jenkins> hmm I will have a play with what you have done
<dpm> I'm trying to achieve several things:
<dpm> * To have a single source document - either the docbook xml or the latex one, but not both
<dpm> I'd prefer the docbook one, as I want to make the guide translatable
<jenkins> docbook is the most flexible at doing different formats
<dpm> and the extracted strings from xml are more translator-friendly than latex
<jenkins> I have not had any experince with that but I am sure it is
<dpm> * the next objective is for the final pdf document to look good :)
<jenkins> what colours font and style do you think we should use?
<dpm> I'm not sure about the font type yet, but I think section titles would look good in Ubuntu orange
<jenkins> yep that sounds good, it might be easier to make the custom dblatex style sheet by also generating the *.tex file. Then you can work out what is being done where and what needs changing
<dpm> yeah, I'll keep looking at it in the next couple of days - I need to hop on a call, but I'll be back later on
<dpm> I'll have more questions as well :)
<jenkins> cool talk later
<jenkins> dpm: I have to run, everyone will be back from work and wanting food soon. I am out tonight but you can drop me an e-mail or grab me tomorrow and I will answer your wuestions
<jenkins> *questions
<dpm> ok, thanks jenkins!
<jenkins> talk soon o/
<dpm> have a nice evening!
<jenkins> and you
<trijntje> Hi all, what must I do to get the permisions for translating the manual to dutch set to "structured"?
<jenkins> godbyk: ping
<jenkins> is it bad that I am writing my Scout news letter in latex?
<jenkins> some how I find a text editor so nice
<jenkins> I like doing this news letter in latex some how doing the layout seams so much easier
 * jenkins tires not to put emotions in the news letter
<jenkins> I am learning how to do tables in latex after this I may just do everything in latex
<infosoft> jenkins: You should try David R. Wilkins - Getting Started with LATEX (http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dwilkins/LaTeXPrimer/) :)
<jenkins> hey infosoft, thanks I don't think we have met before o/ . Any suggestions on a good document class to use?
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-15
<infosoft> It's the first time I'm writing in this channel :) What do you mean by suggestions?
<jenkins> infosoft: any ideas on a good document class that I can use for my newsletter. does that make more sense?
<infosoft> jenkins: Usually I use \documentclass[a4paper, 12pt]{article}. I don't know what's best for you, maybe \documentclass{letter}.
<jenkins> I  have not tired letter I will do
<infosoft> Now it's time to go back watching Black Lagoon anime :D
<jenkins> have fun :)
<infosoft> jenkins: Thanks! I recommend: Angel Beats!; Arakawa Under the Bridge; Bakemonogatari; Black Lagoon. If you like ecchi, then you must see Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou
<jenkins> I have never watched anime I will have to do so some time
<jenkins> I am off to bed night all
<trijntje> Hi all, the Dutch team would like to have the permissions to translate the Manual to Dutch set to structured, how would we accomplish this?
<dpm> hi trijntje, this is something that can only be done on a global (i.e. for all teams) basis. You'd have to ask the manual developers to change the permission policy there -> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+settings
<jenkins> trijntje: I  will grab ben when he is on he supposedly changed it but It does not look like he did. He will know what he did.
<trijntje> jenkins, ok, I'm not sure how the manual developers want things to be in LP.
<jenkins> I dont see why it cant be changed, the e-mail i have implies it was. so I will ask our lead what he did and then check if it is ok to change it
<trijntje> Thanks, ill just hang around here and see what happens
<jenkins> bens in new zeland so if you have to leave feel free to private message me your e-mail and I will get back to you
<trijntje> sudo iptables -A POSTROUTING -t nat -j MASQUERADE
<trijntje> oops, wrong window
<jenkins> join /#latex
<jenkins> man how did i get that wrong
<nisshh> hehe
<jenkins> hey nisshh
<nisshh> jenkins: hey
<vikas> any one here
<nisshh> ...no
<nisshh> vikas: kidding :)
<vikas> ok thnx
<vikas>  ok i have the booting problem blank screen apper with the curcer
<vikas> also get error error failed to acquire org.genome.displaymanager : cannection ":1.133"........
<nisshh> wait, this is a boot problem with ubuntu?
<vikas> it is not using gdm
<nisshh> vikas: are you using quickshot?
<vikas> dont know i am new to ubuntu ?
<nisshh> vikas: ah, right, this is not the right channel then, you should be asking in #ubuntu for that
<nisshh> vikas: i think your getting affected by a bug, ask in #ubuntu about it and they will help you out
<vikas> i did try no one knows about it
<nisshh> vikas: urh, thats a shame, but this is not a support channel, you might try your own loco, or some other support channel
<vikas> ok well thanks for suport
<nisshh> vikas: no probs, sorry i cant help, but its just not the right place :)
<vikas> no prob
<vikas> well can i get user manual at home i am in india mumbai
<nisshh> vikas: you mean a copy of The Ubuntu Manual?
<vikas> ya a book
<nisshh> vikas: ubuntu-manual.org
<nisshh> download a free pdf that the people in this channel made
<vikas> ok, i want to buy the book
<nisshh> vikas: ah, you know you dont have to?
<nisshh> you can have it for free
<vikas> how?
<nisshh> you download it
<nisshh> from that website
<infosoft> It's a lot more interesting to read a book than to read from monitor screen :)
<nisshh> its a .pdf file
<nisshh> infosoft: print version :)
<vikas> ok i havet to print, well it will be good to bye a book rather then printing it , it became expensive
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> vikas: follow the directions on the site
<infosoft> It's not expensive if you refill printer yourself ;)
<infosoft> I mean refilling ink cartridges
<vikas> well i dont have printer
<nisshh> hehe, that could be problematic while printing :)
<vikas> hehe
<infosoft> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX09WnGU6ZY
<infosoft> It's not problem if you have Lego :D
<nisshh> infosoft: that is awesome :)
<infosoft> Yeah, just incredible
<infosoft> Who could update ubuntu-manual.org Lithuanian template? I've fixed some translations (style errors, etc.) and now it's finally perfect (i.e. appropriate), so I'd like to see updated website and to check again for some style mistakes and so on...
<jenkins> godbyk: ping
<godbyk> infosoft: I usually handle updating the translations of the PDFs, but not the website text itself.  For that, I'd recommend talking to daker.
<infosoft> OK, I'll try "to catch" him :)
<c7p> hello
<jenkins> hey c7p
<c7p> hi jenkins
<c7p> godbyk are you around ?
<godbyk> hey, c7p
<c7p> have you worked on the manual ?
<godbyk> yep
<godbyk> been working on it this afternoon, in fact.
<c7p> cool
<c7p> if there is anything i can do let me know ;) ah btw which bugs have been fixed ( http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/3sIwez7O8A ) ?
<jenkins> godbyk: I sorted my news letter the error we could not work out was I had a ) not a }. Thanks for your help
<infosoft> jenkins: Was \documentclass{letter} useful for you?
<jenkins> infosoft: I ended up sticking with article but using \section*{} to remove the numbers. Thanks for the suggestions though
<c7p> guys it's hot here >:o... it's 30 degrees Celsius and it's 00:40 ! what's the weather like where you live ?
<infosoft> Letter style doesn't support \section :)
<infosoft> It's 27.1 degrees Celcius in my room (Vilnius, Lithuania). :)
<c7p> still pretty warm :)
<godbyk> c7p: I'll update the pad in a moment.  trying to chase down a couple of the bugs still.
<c7p> godbyk: good to know
<godbyk> infosoft: 29 C here at the moment.
<jenkins> infosoft: yea thats why i swapped, I found a good example and used that to help
<infosoft> You're lucky! I'd love to live somewhere in Norway.
<godbyk> jenkins: you can just use the command \setcounter{secnumdepth}{-1} to turn off section numbering.
<infosoft> \section* is a lot easier :)
<jenkins> thanks godbyk, i think that makes more sense as i type section automatically and forget the *
<infosoft> jenkins: but what if you'll need numbering in some of the sections?
<godbyk> infosoft: \section* has the side effect of not including the sections in the table of contents, though.
<jenkins> infosoft: good point
<infosoft> Wow, thanks. I didn't noticed it
<jenkins> godbyk: I don't have a contents yet but also good point
<godbyk> oh, and \documentclass{letter} is ugly and horrible.  everyone avoids it. :)
<jenkins> night all
<godbyk> g'night, jenkins
<c7p> g' night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-16
<infosoft> jenkins: I thought you were going to sleep :D
<jenkins> I am too awake :D . And there was a date error in the newsletter
 * jenkins googles more on the nexus one
<humphreybc> The manual is set to structured translations
<jenkins> humphreybc: as in you have now set it?
<humphreybc> no, as in it's been like that for ages
<jenkins> it was not earlier today when I looked promis. some one has changed the focus of translations as well today
<jenkins> *promise
<jenkins> its now lucid-e2
<humphreybc> I just did that
<humphreybc> but it was on structured already when I looked
<jenkins> hmm, strange I would not have e-mailed if not. I will let the person know. thanks
<jenkins> I wonder how easy it is for anyone to change that page?
<humphreybc> no idea
<humphreybc> I'd guess you would have to be an administrator
<humphreybc> but I definitely remember I changed it to structured months ago when we initially had this conversation
<jenkins> I am not one for the manual team
<jenkins> i thought you would have done thats why I thought it was strange
<humphreybc> mm
<godbyk> I set it to structured just a couple hours ago.
<godbyk> It was on Open for some reason.
<jenkins> yey I was not going mad
<godbyk> I'm not sure how it got switched from Structured to Open, though.
<godbyk> The whole Launchpad translation system scares me.
<godbyk> I think it fiddles with things randomly just to cause me grief.
<humphreybc> hmm
<jenkins> I would have changed it but I thought ben might have set it some where else.
<humphreybc> I definitely set it to structured months ago
<godbyk> Yeah, I distinctly remember setting it to structured.
<godbyk> So I'm not sure what happened.
<jenkins> i think the page is openly chnageable
<jenkins> i will ask dpm tomorrow about the permissions of that page
<godbyk> 'kay.
<godbyk> Tell them to stop screwing with me. :-)
<godbyk> We also had it set to disallow automatic translation updates, but that got re-enabled somehow, too.  I reset that last week or so.
<godbyk> It'd help if they set out notifications of such changes and be specific about who made the change and when in the notification.
<godbyk> e.g., godbyk changed the permissions from 'Open' to 'Structured' on the lucid-1e branch on this date and time.
<godbyk> or godbyk manually uploaded a translation template for import into the lucid-1e branch at this date and time.
<godbyk> or launchpad automatically imported a translation template from the lucid-1e branch at this date and time.
<godbyk> so we have some idea of what's triggering the existing notification emails and also get a heads-up when someone changes something.
<godbyk> I think humphreybc can only stay online for ~5 minutes at a time these days. :)
<jenkins> that sound a good idea godbyk,
<humphreybc> sorry, had to restart to fix an apt lock. sigh.
<humphreybc> godbyk: I fear we're turning into the docs team re: translated edition approval
<godbyk> humphreybc: What do you mean?
<humphreybc> Well I just read your reply to Daniel and felt the old tl;dr coming into play
<humphreybc> I don't want to put off translators from translating the manual because it's so hard
<godbyk> Oh, well, has to be done. <shrug>
<humphreybc> (and because we're such picky bastards)
<humphreybc> Yeah, I know
<godbyk> I don't think there was anything in there that was picky was, there?
<humphreybc> as much as I want to maintain the quality throughout translated editions, I'd prefer we have translated editions with a few errors than none at all
<humphreybc> Obviously we need a much better system for translations
<godbyk> The basic problem is that there's extra text that needs to be translated.  Things that don't appear on Launchpad's translation site.
<humphreybc> I don't think that email was picky, no, but I swear that is like the seventh email I've read in the ML from Daniel
<godbyk> Probably is.  I've been horribly busy lately, so I haven't been quite as on top of things as I'd prefer.
<humphreybc> Soon we'll be in August and still not have any translated copies out - which basically means we've failed at something which was going to set us apart from all other ubuntu documentation
<humphreybc> I'm not blaming you :)
<godbyk> At the same time, he tends to not provide quite all the info that we request.
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> well it's something we need to seriously think about
<humphreybc> because, as I said, translations is something that was going to set us apart
<godbyk> I just posted screen and print versions of the Greek edition and have emailed c7p to give it a final glance-over.
<humphreybc> awesome
<humphreybc> let me know when it's on our site and I can announce it on the planet / omg
<godbyk> Once I get the cover from thorwil (which I just emailed him about) and the okay from c7p, I think we're ready to go with the Greek edition.
<godbyk> Yeah, we definitely need to improve the translation process and make it easier to get translations released.
<godbyk> If more people want to dive in and help, that'd be great.  Aside from jenkins, I don't think I've had anyone step up and ask to how to help.
<godbyk> So in general, I'm probably a bit of a bottleneck right now.  We should look into fixing that (by getting more people who can help out with the things I do).
<godbyk> We also need to step up our bug fixing on the second edition so it's ready to go by our 29 July deadline.
<humphreybc> I thought most of the bugs were fixed?
<godbyk> I don't know if most bugs have even been filed, to be honest.
<humphreybc> really?
<humphreybc> but we had that big competition with hundreds of bugs reported and fixed
<godbyk> When I was converting the Rhythmbox section to html, I noticed a bunch of formatting bugs.
<godbyk> They may be localized to that section, though.
<humphreybc> (speaking of which, I need to send that book to our winner - but I need to raise funds to pay for it ;p )
<godbyk> Ah, c'mon.. it costs less than $10. :-)
<godbyk> Did you ever get your copies, btw?
<godbyk> Also, shouldn't you send them a second edition (so they can see their bugs have been fixed?) :)
<godbyk> brb
<humphreybc> I got one :)
<humphreybc> ah, yes, good point
<godbyk> back
<humphreybc> So. Much. Stuff. To. Do.
<godbyk> I hear ya!
<zkriesse> hey synergetic
<jenkins> hehe check this out http://www.googlubuntu.com/
<nisshh> jenkins: hehehe, thats cool
<nisshh> jenkins: i noticed they left the e off google so they probably wont get shunted for copyright
<jenkins> nisshh: I think google made it
<nisshh> jenkins: possibly
<nisshh> jenkins: i dont think they did though, it doesnt look nearly as professional or as minimal as google would make it
<jenkins> nisshh: they did not at the bottom it says "Â©2007-2008 Made byÂ Alrond"
<jenkins> daker: radius of 10px please
<daker> oki
<c7p> hello all :)
<jenkins> thanks dak:)
<jenkins> *daker
<jenkins> hey c7p
<jenkins> thanks daker :)
<daker> np
<jenkins> omg wheres kevin?
<jenkins> he is always here
<daker> LOST!!!
<jenkins> Right I am off to bed night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-17
<daker> hi @all
<infosoft> Hi @daker :)
<infosoft> Silence... Nobody writes nothing :D
<daker> \o/
<infosoft> Oh, by the way, how long does it take to update translation template for ubuntu-manual.org? I can't wait to see the Lithuanian update :D
<daker> now
<daker> godbyk-sagan, are you around ?
<daker> infosoft, can you check pls, because i don't godbyk-sagan has enabled the sync script
<daker> \o/
<dutchie> Back!
<askhl_> Hi.  One of the translatable strings reads "Is this true? I couldn't get it to work for me --jaminday \marginnote{If you click on a file or folder with both the left and right...".  It also says that this is a 'comment' (presumably the standard '%' comment feature in latex).  But why is this string marked for translation?
<dutchie> i think i know what's going on
<thorwil> godbyk-sagan: lulu trim area for a4 is 0.125 inch on every side, too?
<c7p> godbyk-sagan: are you around
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-18
<thorwil> hi daker! any news on the morocco loco logo?
<daker> well, i'll five an answer in the next few days :)
<daker> give
<daker> there is some kind of disagreement about having a new logo
<thorwil> ok
<daker> thanks
<c7p> daker is there a webpage where i can find the manual statistics ?
<c7p> manual's
<daker> yes there is but it's buggy
<daker> 10.04 (en_US) screen => http://stats.ubuntu-manual.org/downloads/?id=8
<daker> 10.04 (en_US) print => http://stats.ubuntu-manual.org/downloads/?id=9
<c7p> thx
<daker> np
<c7p> Kevin posted before some weeks the results of subscriptions per language, is there anything relevant available now? Â  Â 
<daker> you should talk to him
<daker> i don't have the access to the database
<daker> O_o kevin is not here
<c7p> ok I will talk to him :) when he is available on channel
<daker> good
<Sweet|IRC> hello! everyone!
<c7p> hi Sweet|IRC
<Sweet|IRC> hi!, i come here because i need to tell something about the ubuntu manual
<dutchie> go for it
<Sweet|IRC> give a sec, i need the google translator :p
<daker> \o/
<c7p> express yourself freely we can probably understand you better than google translator ;)
<Sweet|IRC> ...
<Sweet|IRC> here a google tranlated :p: I read a little manual, but something about it bothered me ... tells the story of "Linux" and all that is a fact, to work well in certain hardware and things like that.
<Sweet|IRC> but, you now about the GNU project and the free software fundation, right?
<daker> jenkins, c7p do you where i can find an official news feed of ubuntu ?
<c7p> yap, I think it was intentionally selected as story of the Linux because it was thought that GNU/Linux will confuse new users
<c7p> daker nope :/
<Sweet|IRC> confuse?, .... explain me that please!
<jenkins> daker: planet.ubuntu.com ?
<daker> jenkins, nop
<daker> official
<vish> daker: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/
<vish> thats the official one.. ^
<daker> yep
<Sweet|IRC> why do you think a user can get confuse about the history of the linux kernel and the GNU project?
<daker> i'll show you something vish
<c7p> Sweet|IRC: i mean the term "GNU/Linux", and the that the GNU is the system and Linux the kernel i suppose. I wasn't in favour of the plain "Linux" term on that part, so if you need more info send an email at ML so the editors can respond to you
<Sweet|IRC> "ML"?....
<c7p> sorry, Mailing List
<jenkins> Sweet|IRC: We are telling people about linux, which is new to them. Ubuntu is a type of linux, also new to them and gnu is also linux... . It starts to get confusing
<vish> daker: ... ?
<jenkins> daker: http://www.canonical.com/about-canonical/news-and-events
 * vish needs to sleep soon...
<c7p> Sweet|IRC: ubuntu-manual.lists.launchpad.net
<Sweet|IRC> jenkins: GNU is not Linux (GNUINL?)
<Sweet|IRC> C7P, thanks!
<vish> jenkins: thats the canonical one.. , ubuntu uses the fridge for announcements
<c7p> * manual@lists.launchpad.net
<Sweet|IRC> do you read free software, free society?, jenkins.
<c7p> Sweet|IRC: np :)
<jenkins>  Sweet|IRC well three different but related topics can get confusing was basically the why GNU was not mentioned
<jenkins> nope
<Sweet|IRC> okey, i got the spanish version
<Sweet|IRC> i read it all
<Sweet|IRC> how i say "conciencia"?
<Sweet|IRC> google....
<Sweet|IRC> xD
<c7p> community ?
<Sweet|IRC> # conscience
<Sweet|IRC> :p
<Sweet|IRC> i got conscience about the term Linux and Gnu/Linux
<vish> conscious?
<Sweet|IRC> community is comunidad in spanish
<c7p> Sweet|IRC: ok sry :D
<Sweet|IRC> jeje
<Sweet|IRC> so,
<Sweet|IRC> the term "Linux" is bad, because the private software makers (aah, bad english) want to "kill" the GNU GPL and the 4 liberties (libertades?)
<dutchie> freedoms
<Sweet|IRC> yeah, the 4 freedoms!
<Sweet|IRC> dutchie, thanks
<dutchie> no problem
<Sweet|IRC> and, thats the reason because i am upset (enojado?) about this ubuntu manual
<Sweet|IRC> i dont think a little history about the free software fundation makes confuse the user
<Sweet|IRC> and the explication about the Gnu/Linux term is easy, because Linux is the kernel and Gnu is for the OS distro use some programms of the GNU project. easy huh?
<Sweet|IRC> if the user want to now about what is a Kernel and the GNU can maybe make a appendice(??)
<Sweet|IRC> ...
<Sweet|IRC> i need to write to the editors :)
<jenkins> that makes sense to people who know about it but, you have now mention kernel which goes in to more depth than a user needs to know. that my thought anyway
<Sweet|IRC> traducing: that my thought anyway
<Sweet|IRC> ...
<jenkins> Sweet|IRC: please do send an e-mail to the list, the editors will be able to help
<Sweet|IRC> ...
<Sweet|IRC> okey
<Sweet|IRC> but, if you write: the kernel is the part of a OS who makes important thinks like ... and that is. is hard to understood?
<Sweet|IRC> but, by the way, thanks to listen....
<daker> dutchie, thanks for updating the planet
<c7p> Actually you can say in a paragraph what's the Linux kernel and the Gnu system, and in the end say that the GNU/Linux operating system is used to be said simply Linux. no big deal.
<dutchie> daker: no problem
<c7p> with an image next to that paragraph showing the kernel and GNU together everything is much easier to understand
<c7p> eg http://www.geekinside.org/drupal/sites/default/files/300px-Linux-kernel.png
<Sweet|IRC> yeah, good idea, but, i think the term Gnu/Linux debe permanecer (translating this part!....)
<Sweet|IRC> must remain
<Sweet|IRC> i think the term Gnu/Linux must remain, for the sake of the survival of the four freedoms
<c7p> it should but i think this way the confusion between the terms is prevented
<Sweet|IRC> this will be a large day! xD
<Sweet|IRC> and, ... if this part is include in the book (manual, sorry ;P) will make the salles get down?
<c7p> the world talks about linux, in a paragraph, as I said before, that reader can learn that it's Gnu/linux but the term Linux was preserved
<c7p> it's not the sales :P it's one of the project goals "Keep it simple"
<Sweet|IRC> yeah, the world talk about linux, because the bigs private software producers (aaah, bad english) want to the people forget the four freedoms
<Sweet|IRC> ...
<jenkins> dutchie: I have seen you tweet on native pdf in chromium I have version 6.0.470.0  and there is nothing in the about:plugins page to do with pdfs. The version it was pushed in was Â 6.0.437.3 . Any suggestions
<Sweet|IRC> maybe, making the test we can figure out if a reader will get confused
<dutchie> i'm using  chrome
<dutchie> from the google deb repo
<jenkins> o well I will wait until it hit chromium no loss here
<c7p> well somebody hear the word gnu i don't think the first thing that comes to his head is the 4 freedoms
<Sweet|IRC> thinking about the email, if you are telling me this maybe the editor make the same thing xD
<Sweet|IRC> xD
<Sweet|IRC> i know, GNU is a africcan animal xp
<c7p> yap :P
<Sweet|IRC> a Ãu in spanish
<Sweet|IRC> okey, thats a good ones xD
<c7p> hehe
<Sweet|IRC> i will write that mail, and write the englsih version of that little history and explication about the GNU for the editors :p
<jenkins> thanks josh
<c7p> Sweet|IRC: Have you presented at any of Stallman's talks ?
<c7p> ok nice
<Sweet|IRC> no, he comes to costa rica, but, i dont have the money to go to the Capital
<Sweet|IRC> and hear a talk of Stallman
<Sweet|IRC> i read the spanish book, how comes with transcriptions of some talks :p
<daker> vish, still there
<daker> ?
<c7p> transcriptions ?
<Sweet|IRC> yeah, recorded and write later :p
<Sweet|IRC> come in some chapters of the book
<Sweet|IRC> very usefull
<c7p> aha, what distro to you use ?
<Sweet|IRC> Ubuntu, of curse, but, in the ubuntu pages use the termn linux everywhere and thats make me sad :(
<c7p> night all
<jenkins> night c7p
<Sweet|IRC> well, i am go to, bye and thanks everyone!
<jenkins> night Sweet|IRC
#ubuntu-manual 2011-07-11
<benonsoftware> Hi all
<benonsoftware> nisshh: Hi
#ubuntu-manual 2012-07-09
<godbyk> sagaci: Yes, I'll create the quantal branch in the next couple days. I had intended to do that this weekend but got sidetracked. I'll email the list when it's ready.
<sagaci> godbyk, righteo then
<sagaci> should schedule a meeting for the onset of the quantal cycle
#ubuntu-manual 2012-07-10
<sagaci> godbyk: not sure how many people would use the link but the main ubuntu-manual page on lp has the download set as 10.04, can that be updated to 12.04
<godbyk> sagaci: I thought I fixed that the other day. I'll have another look.
<godbyk> sagaci: Does it display the proper download now?
<godbyk> I marked all of the non-precise series as obsolete (instead of supported).
<sagaci> yep
<godbyk> sagaci: cool. thanks!
<godbyk> Launchpad is completely confusing to me. :-/
<godbyk> I have to spend so much time clicking around to get things to work properly.
<sagaci> godbyk: what's the status of a precise +12.04.1/2nd edition? Do we wait until 12.04.1 is released and scan for any major changes? or discard the idea altogether
#ubuntu-manual 2012-07-12
<sagaci> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/07/new-session-menu-lands-in-ubuntu-12-10
<sagaci> this is the kind of stuff we can start integrating through the cycle
<sagaci> correct me if I'm wrong but this is the first time we've had a decent run up in regards to having the new branch out
<sagaci> being able to change the specifics of the manual as they come in
#ubuntu-manual 2012-07-14
<hannie> Hi everyone
<hannie> Here is the agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
<godbyk> Hey, hannie.
<hannie> While we wait for everyone to be here, perhaps we can read the comments that godbyk added to the agenda?
<hannie> godbyk, shall we wait for Chris, andrew and Tony?
<godbyk> hannie: I figure we can give them a couple minutes and then get started.
<hannie> ok
<godbyk> I texted Andrew and he's afk. He said he may be back in about an hour. So we don't need to wait for him.
<hannie> Jim Connett said he could not attend, but he wants to continue working on the manual
<godbyk> Okay.
<hannie> letÅ start then
<godbyk> Agreed.
<godbyk> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jul 14 19:10:00 2012 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<godbyk> Hello, everyone.
<godbyk> The agenda for this meeting is available at <http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting>.
<godbyk> #link http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
<PaddyLandau> Hello.
<hannie> present
<godbyk> #topic Attendance
<godbyk> We'll have everyone say 'hi' to collect attendance real quick.
<hannie> hi
<PaddyLandau> hi
<hannie> not a crowd, but no problem :)
<godbyk> Makes for a short roll call. :)
<godbyk> Andrew just texted me and said he should be here in 5-10 minutes.
<godbyk> #topic Review Precise cycle
<godbyk> Shortly after we released Getting Started with Ubuntu 12.04, I posted a message to the Ubuntu Manual mailing list to collect people's thoughts on what worked well and what didn't during that release cycle.
<godbyk> I've collected those responses and dumped them into the agenda notes: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
<hannie> godbyk, I added a few lines on this at the bottom of the comments
<godbyk> hannie: Thanks.
<godbyk> We haven't collected feedback from the public yet.
<hannie> no, should we?
<godbyk> I think it's a good idea to do so, but I wanted them to be able to read the manual for a bit first.
<hannie> Perhaps use the forums?
<PaddyLandau> May I ask how you collect the comments from the public?
<godbyk> Now that the manual has been out for a couple weeks, we can put together a survey.
<PaddyLandau> For future, would it be a good idea to have a survey ready and post the link inside the manual itself?
<godbyk> A simple way to do it is to use a Google Form and post the link to the forums, Ubuntu Planet blogs, mailing lists, etc.
<godbyk> If we want a more complex survey, I can install some software on our website to do that.
<hannie> good idea!
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Probably!
<PaddyLandau> OK, something to keep in mind, then. That would give a much greater response, I think, provided we position the survey request at a couple of suitable points within the manual.
<godbyk> That's certainly something we can do for 12.10.
<godbyk> Agreed.
<hannie> +1
<godbyk> Let me make a note real quick.
<godbyk> Okay.
<godbyk> I'll send an email to the list after the meeting to solicit questions and figure out what we'd like to hear from our readers and other community members.
<godbyk> Then we can put together a survey and post it to the forums, mailing lists, blogs, etc.
<PaddyLandau> Good idea. But we should keep the survey very simple, because many people lose patience after 5 or 6 questions.
<godbyk> I can also set up a feedback@ubuntu-manual.org email address to collect reader feedback and we can print that in the manual as well.
<hannie> Yes, I agree on that too
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: +1
<hannie> So questions must be to the point
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Cool.
<godbyk> Does anyone here have anything to add about how things went last cycle?
<godbyk> I'll be reviewing the responses over the next couple days and trying to address them as needed.
<hannie> Yes, about TeX live
<PaddyLandau> Not from me. I think everything has already been covered.
<godbyk> hannie: Fire away!
<hannie> Will this be in the repository as from 12.10?
<hannie> I thought I had read that
<godbyk> hannie: TeX Live 2012 was just released a few days ago.
<PaddyLandau> It's already there. I've uninstalled the old one and installed the new one from the repository.
<ajmontag> hello, sorry to be late
<hannie> welcome, ajmontag
<godbyk> hannie: I *think* that the Debian team has been reworking all of their texlive packages for the past year or thereabouts.
<PaddyLandau> Hi ajmontag.
<godbyk> hannie: And I *think* that the new texlive packages should appear in Ubuntu 12.10.
<godbyk> There is already a PPA for them.
<godbyk> I've tested the PPA and those packages do work and successfully compile the manual.
<hannie> ok, we'll see.
<PaddyLandau> Hannie: It's already there. I've uninstalled the old one and installed the new one from the repository.
<hannie> ok, PaddyLandau did it work fine?
<godbyk> So hopefully we'll be able to use the Ubuntu texlive packages in 12.10 to build the manual instead of requiring everyone to install TeX Live from upstream.
<PaddyLandau> Yes, as far as I know. I've never actually used TeX Live, but at least I know that the installation works.
<hannie> that's good news then
<hannie> I'll give it a try tomorrow myself
<godbyk> ajmontag: Did you have any thoughts on how things went during the last release cycle?
<godbyk> ajmontag: What worked well and what could be improved?
<PaddyLandau> Hannie: Let us know how well it works.
<hannie> godbyk, the 3rd point I had for the comments will be discussed later (spreadsheet authors)
<hannie> PaddyLandau, I will
<hannie> hey CrustyBarnacle
<CrustyBarnacle> Howdy all.. Hey Hannie
<ajmontag> With this being my first project like this, I dont have much to compare it to, but I think it went smoothly.
<godbyk> Hey, CrustyBarnacle.
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: We were just discussing how things went during the previous cycle.
<CrustyBarnacle> Our awesome LaTex-ers and Hannie did an excellent job herding us cats!
<godbyk> The meeting agenda is here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
<godbyk> I collected the responses we got from the mailing list.
<hannie> couldn 't do without you guys
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Good to hear!
<godbyk> hannie is an excellent cat-herder!
<hannie> with a whip :)
<PaddyLandau> +1 for Hannie's involvement.
<CrustyBarnacle> One thing that could improve, if we continue to use it. Google docs spreadsheet. Did we actually use it to track?
 * hannie starts blushing
<PaddyLandau> Hannie: LOL
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: c7p and hannie used the spreadsheet quite a bit to track things.
<godbyk> I generally just emailed them to find out where we were. :-)
<hannie> I have made a new spreadsheet for Quantal, it will be discussed later
<CrustyBarnacle> The troubleshooting chapter assignments... I did not get responses ever from the assigned authors.
 * godbyk only *appears* to know what's going. It's really c7p and hannie who keep things on track!
<CrustyBarnacle> That chapter still needs to be revisited, yes?
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: I think the troubleshooting chapter is a perennial problem.
<hannie> let me have a look at the old spreadsheet
<godbyk> It seems that it's difficult to keep that one updated.
<hannie> It says: Tom to make an outline of the new chapter
<CrustyBarnacle> Overall though... Communication was great this cycle. Lots of progress emails and quick changes/commits.
<hannie> Perhaps we should ask Tom Swartz?
<godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard!
<hannie> hey ChrisWoollard
<CrustyBarnacle> Howdy ChrisWoolard :-)
<ChrisWoollard> Hey Everybody
<hannie> ChrisWoollard, here is the agenda: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
<godbyk> Why don't we move on to the Quantal discussion. I think the troubleshooting chapter will likely need to be addressed again during that cycle anyway.
<ChrisWoollard> thanks
<godbyk> Slight detour first:
<CrustyBarnacle> +1 Quantal discussion after detour :-)
<godbyk> #topic Menubar / top bar / panel
<godbyk> In an effort to be consistent, Hannie emailed the Ubuntu docs team and others to try to sort out what to call that thing at the top of the screen.
<CrustyBarnacle> UI references vs user preference/understanding <-- Is that the main thing?
<ChrisWoollard> sensible
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Somewhat. And because everyone calls it something different, apparently.
<hannie> It was quite interesting to read the reactions, also on the forums (thanks PaddyLandau )
<hannie> The ubuntu docs use menu bar because that is how it is called in the gui
<CrustyBarnacle> hannie: I was surprised by all the opinions on this one.
<PaddyLandau> The way I see, we are in a difficult situation. The jargon is "menu bar". But the manual is supposed to be jargon-free (as stated on the website), and the bar is not a menu bar.
<hannie> Even from jorge Castro :)
<PaddyLandau> But I think if we stick to standards and simply qualify what we mean when we introduce the term, it will be OK to call it the menu bar.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Though some people said that 'menu bar' (or 'menubar'?) is what appears in the UI.
<CrustyBarnacle> PaddyLandau: "menu bar" is a UI name, not jargon.
<hannie> if we want to suggest another term, we should contact the gui developers first
<CrustyBarnacle> +1 contact devlopers
<PaddyLandau> Well, my vote is to stick with the jargon ("menu bar") unless we have a good reason to do otherwise.
<godbyk> I think our best bet is to ensure that the manual's terminology matches that which the user will see in the user interface.
<hannie> I suggest we use menu bar for the moment (Quantal). What do you guys think?
<godbyk> We can, in addition, mention synonymous names that they'll find others calling it in the forums and on mailing lists, though.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk & hannie: Agreed.
<ajmontag> my vote is for Menubar
<CrustyBarnacle> menu bar
<hannie> ajmontag, two words
<PaddyLandau> Two words, please: "menu bar".
<godbyk> For example: The menu bar (also called the top bar or the panel) ...
<ajmontag> ah, agreed.
<hannie> godbyk, yes we can explain that
<godbyk> hannie: We should use one or two words -- however it appears in the user interface.
<PaddyLandau> The same would apply to the Launcher but in reverse: "The Launcher (the left side bar)..."
<godbyk> Having said that, someone else point out that the global menu may become optional in 12.10 and applications can have menubars in their windows again. In which case the terminology used in the Unity UI may change. So we'll have to keep an eye on that.
<CrustyBarnacle> Will the agreed upon terms be added to a Style Guide?
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Yes. I'll try to make sure that all of this makes it into the style guide.
<godbyk> (The trick then being coercing authors and editors to read the style guide. ;-))
<hannie> godbyk, the more reason to stick to menu bar for the moment?
<godbyk> Our of curiosity, how many here have read the style guide (in whole or in part)?
<PaddyLandau> I have in whole though I admit parts were scanned.
<ChrisWoollard> I have
<CrustyBarnacle> Read
<ChrisWoollard> ish
<hannie> godbyk, I think it is getting better and better
<ChrisWoollard> mostly
<godbyk> hannie: At the moment, I think menu bar is fine. We'll change it if we need to in the future.
<CrustyBarnacle> Next item? Screenshot?
<hannie> Perhaps we should mail to everyone that the style guide is a MUST
<godbyk> I don't think many people need to read the entire guide, actually. If you're not a translator, you don't really need to read the translation chapter, after all.
<CrustyBarnacle> Doesn't hurt to read it all :-)
<hannie> godbyk, sorry for asking you about /gls while I could have looked in the style guide
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: This is a manual that needs a consistent interface. Who would *not* need to read the Style Guide?
<ajmontag> I glanced through the style guide before I started, then used it as a reference as I went.
<godbyk> I have been adding things to the style guide as I encounter them when editing the manual as well.
<godbyk> Do you think it's helpful if I email the list when I add new info to the style guide?
<godbyk> Or do you you regularly re-download the style guide when you want to reference it?
<hannie> yes, it is helpful
<godbyk> Okay, I'll try to do a better job of that in the future, then.
<PaddyLandau> Yes, definitely helpful. I re-downloaded only when you emailed us.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Weekly summary if any updates/changes made?
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: That could work, too.
<hannie> it reminds people that they should use the style guide more often
<ajmontag> hannie: +1
<godbyk> #topic Ubunto 12.10 release schedule
<godbyk> The release schedule for Ubuntu 12.10 is at <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule>
<godbyk> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule
<godbyk> Some highlights are:
<godbyk> Feature freeze: 23 August
<godbyk> UI freeze: 30 August
<godbyk> Beta 2 freeze: 20 September
<godbyk> Final release: 18 October
<hannie> I haven'tried this yet, ut can I use Virtual Box while having Ubuntu installed inside Windows (Wubi)?
<godbyk> The big question is: Do you think we could release the manual on 18 October (or shortly afterward)?
<hannie> *but
<godbyk> hannie: I'm not sure. I've never tried that.
<PaddyLandau> hannie: You can have as many machines as you like on Virtual Box. You can also run more than one at the same time, but beware: you need the RAM! How much RAM does your machine have?
<hannie> wubi has 30 GB I think
<hannie> The machine has much more of course
<PaddyLandau> Sorry, I misread; WUBI is separate from Virtual Box. You can certainly run Ubuntu in Virtual Box while your host is either WUBI or Windows.
<CrustyBarnacle> off topic... back to manual :-), please :)
<hannie> hey commandoline welcome
<PaddyLandau> Sorry. Hannie, we can take this to email.
<hannie> PaddyLandau, ok
<commandoline> hi hannie & everyone else
<godbyk> Hey, commandoline.
<hannie> godbyk, commandoline is a python expert :)
<godbyk> commandoline: The meeting agenda is online at http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UMP-Q-1stmeeting
<godbyk> hannie, commandoline: Ah, excellent!
<hannie> godbyk, sorry about the VB detour. Just proceed
<godbyk> hannie: no problem.
<godbyk> Does anyone have any thoughts on trying to release the manual on 18 October with the final release of Ubuntu 12.10?  Doable?  Insane?
<hannie> I think most of the Precise manual is reusable
<ajmontag> I think it would be possible.
<hannie> therefore it will take less time to write for the new version
<CrustyBarnacle> Doable. Main changes are screenshots and Troubleshooting?
<PaddyLandau> Heck, why not? Provided that we can provides "updates" to the installation. If you can install the manual through the Ubuntu Software Centre, can you send updates to it? Then people get the updates automatically?
<godbyk> The UI freeze is set for 30 August, but we know that there are always lots of UI freeze exceptions and that Canonical likes to dump a lot of last-minute changes in after the fact. (They're sneaky that way.)
<godbyk> The Beta 2 freeze if 20 September, however.
<godbyk> At that point, it should be stable enough for us to install it and check to ensure all the details are correct.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: I'm not sure. I presume so.
<PaddyLandau> There's plenty of work. Do we have the manpower?
<ajmontag> I think we could begin authoring on 20 September (beta 2 freeze)
<hannie> Beta 2 should be stable enough
<CrustyBarnacle> So... Final draft: mid-September, Releases: Oct 18?
<godbyk> Well, final draft would be closer to the release date.. sometime near mid-October.
<hannie> I will not be available in August, so others will have to take over in that period
<PaddyLandau> How about this... We aim for final release 17th October (so it's available for the 12.10 release the day after); but accept that if things go wrong, we let the date slip.
<ajmontag> *if* we begin authoring at the beta 2 freeze, that would likely put our release a month after the Ubuntu release
<ajmontag> PaddyLandau: +1
<godbyk> We spent roughly two months on the 12.04 cycle.
<godbyk> Did that seem like enough time?  Was it rushed?  Did it take too long?
<ajmontag> I thought it was just right.
<CrustyBarnacle> Quantal DocumentationStringFreeze : Sept. 20 <-- Can we have a draft to review by then?
<PaddyLandau> Quite rushed for me, but I prefer it that way; it doesn't drag out.
<CrustyBarnacle> It was a good amount - Faster then previous cycles, but felt like the right pace.
<ChrisWoollard> Personally, I was pleased that it was done so quickly. Much better than previous cycles
<hannie> I think 2 months is just right
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: hannie's quite the task-master. ;-)
<godbyk> Okay, so let's see how two months fits in to the Ubuntu 12.10 release schedule...
<godbyk> It we release October 18, we need to start work August 18.
<CrustyBarnacle> If we Release on  Oct. 18, then we start Aug. 16-23-ish? Yes
<godbyk> Since feature freeze is 23 August, it ought to work out fairly well.
<PaddyLandau> I think we should release Oct. 17th, the day before the official release.
<godbyk> We can start taking screenshots after Beta 2 (20 September).
<PaddyLandau> How long does it take to get into the Ubuntu Software Centre?
<CrustyBarnacle> +1 to starting at FeatureFreeze
<godbyk> Were there any phases of our manual's release cycle that seemed too short or too long?
<godbyk> Did we spent too much or too little time writing or editing?
<hannie> +1 starting end of August
<godbyk> Did anyone feel like they were sitting on their hands with nothing to do for a long period of time?
<ChrisWoollard> Q: Isn't the default wallpater not updated until the release candiate some time
<hannie> godbyk, that depended on the chapter
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Waiting for author responses for Troubleshooting. Wasted a lot of time when I had time :-/
<hannie> ChrisWoollard, I agree on not starting too early with the screenshots
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Well, we submit our PDF to the App Review Board and they review it during one of their meetings. They're supposed to meet twice monthly, but another site said their next meeting was a month out when I looked. So they may be meeting at the end of each month instead of every two weeks now.
<hannie> Let's give the text priority
<ChrisWoollard> I would say, start the screenshots at whatever point the wallpaper is updated.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: If they continue to meet at the end of each month (and they're not swamped), then we should see the manual in the Software Center toward the beginning of November, I expect.
<CrustyBarnacle> Screenshots after/starting at Beta 2 +1
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Can we take the Ubuntu Software Centre to a private email tomorrow to avoid cluttering this chat?
<ChrisWoollard> Obiously some can be done earlier if they done have the wallpaper
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Quite possibly. It seems like they always push UI changes up to the last possible second. It makes taking oodles of screenshots a right pain.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Sure.
<godbyk> Okay, since we don't have a lot of people at this meeting how about I draft a set of milestones for the 12.10 release of the manual and send it to the list for comments?
<godbyk> Then we can discuss any objections and changes there.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: +1
<godbyk> Okay, next up:
<godbyk> #topic Ubuntu Manual website
<godbyk> We've been using the same website for a couple years now and I think it's time we overhauled it.
<ChrisWoollard> +1
<godbyk> At the moment, any time we want to change the text on the website, or publish a new manual to the site, I log into the web server and hand-edit a bunch of files.
<godbyk> It's not a very efficient way to go about doing things and it's prone to error.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau suggested that we take a look at WordPress as an option.
<godbyk> And hannie had someone who is poking at the Drupal site that we have at http://test.ubuntu-manual.org to see how awful it may be.
<PaddyLandau> I far prefer the current site to the test one.
<ChrisWoollard> Worpress could work. Depends if it does everything we need.
<PaddyLandau> But I'd avoid Drupal. Although a good site, it takes plenty of work.
<PaddyLandau> I mean CMS, not site.
<CrustyBarnacle> Current site looks good.
<hannie> PaddyLandau, the test site is not usable yet
<godbyk> Our current site (not the test site) is written in PHP. It has a lot of bugs and I have to update it by hand.
<PaddyLandau> I am willing to set up a test WordPress site so that we can fiddle and check whether or not it will do what we need without tears and gnashing of teeth.
<godbyk> I'd like to have a web interface so that others can help maintain the site (e.g., update instructions, publish manuals, etc.).
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: I was in the midst of replying to your WordPress email when the meeting started.
<PaddyLandau> WordPress is entirely web-based, and you can assign people various administrator or author.
<CrustyBarnacle> Wordpress would provide that. It's all PHP to MySQL backend
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: It looks like the translation stuff you linked to is about translating the WordPress admin pages. I didn't notice anything about translating the content of the blog entries or static pages, though. (I may have missed it, though, so if it's there feel free to point me at it.)
<PaddyLandau> Ah, sorry. I shall get onto the WordPress forums tomorrow and ask. If there is nothing, it would be more difficult and may not be a suitable solution.
<godbyk> commandoline: Are you the Marten that hannie spoke of?
<commandoline> godbyk: I am
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: The other WordPress questions I had were: (1) it'd be nice to preserve our existing URIs either through WordPress or a .htaccess/mod_rewrite file.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: (2) I wonder if we can make the downloads page work under wordpress.
<godbyk> commandoline: I don't know if hannie saw my reply yet, but the test site (in Drupal) is available on Launchpad. Let me grab the link for you.
<PaddyLandau> (1) WordPress allows you tailor your URIs, so that's not a problem. You can also use mod_rewrite through .htaccess if you want.
<godbyk> commandoline: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/0.3
<commandoline> godbyk: nice :)
<hannie> PaddyLandau, godbyk is it possible to explain in 2 words what this WordPress is?
<PaddyLandau> (2) That is something I have started to investigate. It is definitely possible, but may need some simple PHP, which I can code.
<godbyk> hannie: WordPress is primarily a blog engine.
<godbyk> hannie: But in addition to the usual dated blog entries, you can also create static pages -- pages that don't change frequently -- like those on our existing site.
<hannie> but what we want is make a new website
<hannie> aha
<godbyk> WordPRess provides a web interface so you can create and edit pages/text through the website itself instead of editing the source files directly.
<CrustyBarnacle> WordPress also allows workflow: Author --> Editor/Approval --> Publish
<godbyk> If we can get WordPress (or a plugin) to allow us to easily translate the content of the site, I think WordPress would be a good option.
<PaddyLandau> Hannie: Look at Macleans for an example of a WordPress website: http://www2.macleans.ca/
<godbyk> We could use its static pages for the stuff that doesn't change much (instructions, information, etc.) and the blog part for posting 'news' items (announcements of new manual releases, requests for help, etc.).
<hannie> PaddyLandau, I'll have a look at it in a moment
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Another option is that we can create a separate site for the downloads page so that WordPress doesn't have to manage that.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Generally, you won't use static pages at all. You use posts, but you set each post to be the type of page you want.
<PaddyLandau> We also don't need a separate site for downloads (if necessary). WordPress is entirely compatible with concurrent running of static non-WordPress pages on the same site.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Then we'd just need to (1) figure out how to translate WordPress content, and (2) build a downloads page and interface to upload the new manuals [which wouldn't be all that difficult].
<PaddyLandau> (1) I shall investigate. (2) Definitely possible, just finding the easiest (i.e. most maintainable) way of doing it.
<PaddyLandau> I shall let the list know when I have some answers.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Thanks!
<hannie> And how about a site like our translation team wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu-nl.org/community/Vertaalteam
<ajmontag> here is a showcase of good wordpress sites:
<ajmontag> http://wordpress.org/showcase/
<godbyk> hannie: The issue there is that we'd still need a way to translate the site and we'd need a nice downloads page.
<godbyk> commandoline: If you have any questions about the current website or the test site, feel free to pester me. I may not have all the answers, but I'm happy to try and find them for you.
<godbyk> commandoline: (I didn't write the code for either of the sites, but I do host both sites. And I've written chunks of the code for the current site.)
<commandoline> godbyk: ok, thanks. I'll give the test site a look.
<godbyk> Did anyone else have any questions or comments about the Ubuntu Manual website?
<CrustyBarnacle> next topic?
<godbyk> #topic Spreadsheet
<godbyk> I think this might just be some notes that hannie added.
<godbyk> One thing I might suggest we consider, however:
<godbyk> If we can find someone who's interested in helping us with some web development work, we could have them create a web page for us to track the status of the chapters.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Any way to use launchpad for this?
<godbyk> So instead of using the spreadsheet, they could use our website and see what our current phase/milestone is, what needs to be done, what's already been done, who's responsible for doing what, etc.
<PaddyLandau> There's probably a tool already available on the Internet to do this.
<PaddyLandau> Why not Google Docs?
<hannie> I want to suggest the following:
<godbyk> CrustyBarnacle: Possibly, I'm not sure.  I tend to get lost frequently when I try to do stuff using Launchpad.
<TonyP> godbyk: A wiki page?
<ajmontag> There are lots of programs for tracking software development progress, and we may find something that can let us post online.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Probably. Well, the current spreadhseet is using Google Docs.
<godbyk> TonyP: I was thinking something a bit more structured.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk: Agreed, unfortunately...
<ajmontag> Agile software development tools would be something to look for
<godbyk> ajmontag: Would you like to poke around and see if you can find something simple that would fit our needs?
<PaddyLandau> What specifically are you looking for? Project management?
<ajmontag> godbyk: working on it
<TonyP> godbyk: I could never get anything on the Google doc
<godbyk> It'd be nice if an author could log in and update their status on the chapter.
<godbyk> Then everyone can see that chapter 5 is 65% rewritten.
<godbyk> And chapter 3 has been 30% edited.
<hannie> godbyk, we can share the spreadsheet with all team members
<godbyk> And that way hannie knows who to whip. ;-)
<godbyk> hannie: Do the team members update the spreadsheet themselves or do you and c7p handle the updates?
<hannie> thus everyone can add the status of his chapter
<godbyk> We can try that. I'm not picky. It was just a thought. :)
<hannie> godbyk, so far it was just me and c7p, but I can share this one with all our members
<godbyk> #topic Any other business
<godbyk> Okay, was there anything else that anyone wanted to discuss before we end the meeting?
<hannie> I do not have any questions
<PaddyLandau> No more from me.
<CrustyBarnacle> nope
<TonyP> Just want to apologise for getting to the meeting so late
<godbyk> TonyP: Ah, no worries.
<godbyk> Not everyone can make every meeting.
<godbyk> We're happy when anyone shows up. :)
<hannie> oh, c7p will send an email to all authors of Precise, asking if they want to work for the new version
<godbyk> hannie: Ah, great!
<TonyP> You are so kind!
<hannie> I will do the same to our editors
<godbyk> hannie: Perfect!
<godbyk> hannie: I'll sit back and watch you and c7p work.
<ajmontag> Here is some agile software (web based and free)
<ajmontag> http://www.agilefant.org/
<ajmontag> here is a review and a screen:
<ajmontag> http://www.agile-tools.net/agileprojectmanagement/agilefant.aspx
<ajmontag> disclaimer: I have never used this before :P
<PaddyLandau> Are you sure it's web-based? The website talks about downloading the software.
<godbyk> ajmontag: Cool. Thanks!  I'll take a look at it.  I think we probably only really need the review/overview screen. It doesn't have to be too detailed.
<hannie> ok, guys, it's time to relax. Thank you all for coming. Let's make Quantal even better!
<PaddyLandau> Thanks for holding the meeting.
<godbyk> Thanks, everyone.
 * PaddyLandau waves goodbye.
<godbyk> I'll email the meeting minutes to the list soon.
<hannie> godbyk, thank you for being chai
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<hannie> *chair
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Jul 14 20:23:12 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-07-14-19.10.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-07-14-19.10.html
<godbyk> hannie: no problem!
<ChrisWoollard> thanks
<CrustyBarnacle> thanks all!
<hannie> bye
<ajmontag> PaddyLandau: no, I am not sure it is web based
<PaddyLandau> ajmontag: OK. no problem.
<PaddyLandau> I have to go now.
<PaddyLandau> Bye everyone.
<TonyP> Bye from me
<ajmontag> bye
<CrustyBarnacle> bye
#ubuntu-manual 2012-07-15
<godbyk> Hey, hannie. I just replied to your email to the list about the Places menu.
<hannie> hi godbyk
<hannie> ah, good.
<hannie> I'll have a look
<godbyk> Personally, I think we should focus on applying those fixes to the quantal branch and leaving the 12.10 manual as it is (bugs and all).  I could possibly be persuaded otherwise, however, if there are enough egregious errors.
<hannie> Well, I think Precise is special because it is an LTS version
<godbyk> I think it's perfectly fine (and preferable, even) if you want to fix those bugs as you're translating the manual, though.
<hannie> Perhaps we can collect all the important fixes and do an update once?
<godbyk> I don't think LTS is all that special. But even so the bugs so far have been relatively minor, I think.
<godbyk> If there enough bugs, then we might.
<godbyk> But release a new edition involves a bunch of stuff.
<hannie> ok, I will make a list and see if they are important enough for an update
<hannie> otherwise we wait for Quantal
<godbyk> We have to generate the PDFs (easy), upload them to the website and lulu.com (more time consuming), update the translation template file (risks irking the translators), sending out press releases (confuses the community and possibly looks bad), etc.
<hannie> I thought it so ): Not a piece of cake
<godbyk> Sounds good.
<godbyk> Keep reporting the bugs you find though. We'll definitely want to fix them in quantal.
<godbyk> I think as translators, you probably read the manual more carefully than our authors and editors!
<hannie> Yes, we translators really chew on those lengthy strings
<godbyk> I was working on converting the manual to ePUB last weekend. Just playing around. And I found a bunch of little formatting problems here and there that I want to correct as well.
<hannie> Ah, so there is plenty of work to do for you
<hannie> A question on the file template:
<hannie> How come the strings are so long? I ubuntu-docs they are much shorter
<godbyk> I think it's because po4a turns each paragraph into a string.
<hannie> But ubuntu-docs is also on LP
<hannie> do they not use po4a?
<godbyk> Do they write smaller paragraphs? :)
<godbyk> Probably not.
<godbyk> Well, they might. I'm not sure.
<godbyk> But I think their source files are in some XML-based format.
<godbyk> So they could be using po4a, I guess.
<hannie> at least not the same as our format
<godbyk> Right.
<hannie> My fellow translators are not very enthousiastic, so much of the work will be done by me ):
<godbyk> If it's the text you see when you click on the desktop and go to Help > Ubuntu Help, then it looks like those paragraphs are pretty short.
<hannie> btw, I often use the term "fellow translators". Is that correct English?
<godbyk> I don't blame them. It's a lot of work!
<godbyk> Yep!
<hannie> One more question: (a moment, please)
<godbyk> np
<hannie> What to do with strings like: Nautilus!window
<hannie> type: index{#1}
<godbyk> You can translate the words, but leave the punctuation alone.
<godbyk> I added a list of \index commands to the translators chapter of the style guide last weekend, I think.
<hannie> So it would be: Nautilus!venster
<godbyk> If I missed any, feel free to let me know, though.
<godbyk> Yes.
<hannie> And both words need to be translated? Here Nautilus is the same in Dutch of course
<godbyk> I was a bit disappointed in the index. I was hoping we'd have a lot more index entries. I spent quite a while fixing them to comply with my recommendations from the style guide, too. I'm not sure if anyone read it.
<godbyk> Both words in that case, yes.
<hannie> Ah, the index is another story.
<godbyk> Nautilus is the main index entry, and venster is the subentry.
<hannie> We should assign more people to that
<godbyk> I think we either need to assign more people to it or just find one or two people who are really keen to do it and can work together and be consistent.
<hannie> Or we should instruct editors to index their chapter properly
<godbyk> It's a rather dull task, though, so I'm not sure that we'll find anyone who's really keen to do it.
<godbyk> Given the errors we're finding in the manual, the editors may have their work cut out for them as it is.
<hannie> Therefore I opt to let each editor index his own chapter
<godbyk> I don't know who wrote or edited the section on the Places/Go menu, but that seems like something that someone should've discovered much earlier.
<godbyk> I might try using Crocodoc to help with indexing in 12.10.
<godbyk> Post the PDF and let the chapter authors and editors make suggestions as to what should be indexed on each page.
<godbyk> Then I or someone else can go through and add all the \index commands.
<godbyk> I think that'll help with consistency and formatting.
<hannie> well, I am not sure about that.
<godbyk> (The \index commands can be a bit tricky.)
<hannie> that is very true
<godbyk> I'm not sure what the best solution is either. Indexing is actually a rather difficult thing to do well.
<godbyk> You have to place yourself in the position of the reader.
<godbyk> You have to think, 'What would the reader look up in the index?'
<hannie> Should we ask via the mailing list if people are interested in doing this special task?
<godbyk> And not, 'I'm starting a new section here, I should add the section heading to the index.'
<hannie> I agree that a good index is very important
<hannie> I myself started too late on indexing chapter 2. It was far from perfect
<hannie> btw, received a mail from John. He changed the spreadsheet (many authors will continue with their chapter)
<godbyk> I saw that. That's good to hear!
<godbyk> Something else I forgot to bring up at the meeting:
<hannie> I still have to contact the editors (one thing at a time ;) )
<godbyk> I think it might be helpful to have regularly scheduled meetings during 12.10.
<godbyk> Meet every two weeks at the same, for example.
<godbyk> That way we don't have to send out polls and wait for people to sign up and all that each time we decide to meet.
<hannie> Well, I did think the meeting yesterday very useful
<hannie> I was glad more and more people joined
<hannie> It also makes us more of a team when we have regular meetings
<hannie> So, yes, do suggest to have a meeting every 2 weeks or so
<godbyk> I agree.
<godbyk> Okay. I'll email the list and see if we can set that up.
<godbyk> We can always schedule an extra meeting here or there if we need to.
<hannie> right. Back to work then. Nice chat, cya
<godbyk> Or cancel a meeting if we have nothing to discuss.
<godbyk> Okay. Talk to you later, hannie!
