#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-26
<thorwil> morning!
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-27
<humphreybc> godbyk: I see that German is almost ready to be released :D
<godbyk> humphreybc: yep
<humphreybc> what other languages are close?
<godbyk> no clue.
<godbyk> haven't heard from any other editors yet.
<humphreybc> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+translations
<humphreybc> german is way down the page
<humphreybc> same with greek
<godbyk> yeah, I don't know what's up with the translation stuff these days.
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> launchpad's translation stuff frightens and confuses me.
<godbyk> I've given up trying to figure it out.
<humphreybc> lol
<godbyk> humphreybc: so.. still up for a 29 July release of the second edition?
<godbyk> I haven't been paying any attention to what's been happening with it.
<godbyk> I know some bugs have been fixed.
<godbyk> but beyond that, I don't know how many bugs remain or anything.
<humphreybc> definitely
<humphreybc> we should be okay
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> that's 2 days away
<godbyk> yep
<humphreybc> when's the next point release for lucid?
<godbyk> I don't know.
<humphreybc> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-July/031016.html
<humphreybc> "Due to not having a full-time release manager" << They should have hired me.
<humphreybc> so we can release on the 29th or on the 12th august, whatever suits us
<godbyk> heh.. great.
<godbyk> lol. have you heard back from them?
<humphreybc> no
<humphreybc> the position has been taken down, presumed it was filled
<godbyk> interesting.
<humphreybc> i guess I suck at managing :P
<godbyk> well, then.. do we want to release on the 29th or the 12th?
<nisshh> humphreybc: they probably got your application and went "oh, no! not humphreybc!"
<humphreybc> honestly, you know more about the project at the moment than me
<humphreybc> i've been rather absent as of late
<godbyk> What kind of changes go into the point release of ubuntu?
<humphreybc> just bug fixes
<godbyk> anything we should wait on to ensure our edition matches their point release?
<humphreybc> nah
<humphreybc> it's behind the scenes stuff
<nisshh> godbyk: all the UI tweaks?
<humphreybc> did you look at that list?
<humphreybc> nisshh: no UI tweaks
<humphreybc> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-10.04.1
<nisshh> humphreybc: what about all the sound menu stuff?
<humphreybc> nisshh: no that's for maverick
<nisshh> oh THAT ubuntu release :)
<humphreybc> a point release is just a bug fix
<nisshh> thought you meant maverick
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> I put android 2.2 on my magic yesterday
<nisshh> nice?
<humphreybc> it's great
<nisshh> stable?
<humphreybc> my phone is actually now a joy to use
<humphreybc> yeah it's stable, cyanogen mod 6 rc2
<godbyk> They fixed most the bugs/complaints I had.
<nisshh> cool
<humphreybc> you know, it's FAST and you don't get frustrated when things don't appear for 20 seconds
<godbyk> I'm just using the stock froyo.
<humphreybc> and the keyboard is responsive now
 * nisshh cant even afford a new comp, so no new android for him...
<humphreybc> you've got a nexus one right kevin?
<godbyk> yeah
<humphreybc> yeah
<humphreybc> i bet yours is really fast
<humphreybc> the magic is underpowered
<nisshh> did you see the guys who put ubuntu on the N1?
<godbyk> it seems pretty fast.
<humphreybc> have you got the fancy new gallery?
<godbyk> it could always be faster, though. :)
 * godbyk is impatient.
<nisshh> heh
<humphreybc> I still don't think android is as fast as iphones
<humphreybc> but i've never dried any of the new uber fast phones like the Droid X
<humphreybc> tried*
<humphreybc> the best feature for me when going from 1.6 - 2.1 was the addition of the new "universal contact" thing
<nisshh> humphreybc: i think we should be grateful that there IS an alternative to the iphone :)
<humphreybc> and the fact that facebook and twitter syncs with your contacts and downloads profile pictures from facebook, so when you scroll through contacts they all have pictures. It's so good.
<humphreybc> the market still needs a lot of work though, too many shithouse apps
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> yeah, I wish I could sort the apps by rating or something.
<humphreybc> godbyk: do you know if Google has any kind of control / screening for apps so people don't create malicious ones?
<humphreybc> I can't imagine it's totally free for all
<godbyk> they did add an 'update all' button, though.  that killed one of my peeves.
<humphreybc> update all is good
<humphreybc> godbyk: do you SMS?
<godbyk> humphreybc: they pulled one app from the store and uninstalled it from people's phones because of that.
<humphreybc> so they don't have any prevention
<godbyk> someone created a pseudo-malicious app as a test of security.
<godbyk> it didn't do any damage or anything, but google pulled it.
<godbyk> humphreybc: I didn't used to, but I do occasionally now.
<humphreybc> http://www.downloadsquad.com/2010/06/28/understanding-the-android-market-security-system/
<humphreybc> godbyk: when you send and SMS to someone, in the thread, it shows their picture, and it's meant to show your picture beside "Me"
<humphreybc> but all I get is a gray box - do you get one as well?
<humphreybc> I can't change it or anything, and it's bugging me to no end
<godbyk> humphreybc: http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/06/exercising-our-remote-application.html
<godbyk> I get a grey android icon if there's no profile pic for them.
<humphreybc> lame
<humphreybc> i just get a gray box
<godbyk> but the contacts I talk to regularly have profile pics (either from facebook, google accounts, or one that I've set manually)
<humphreybc> no i mean for ME
<humphreybc> not for them
<humphreybc> for the text messages I send
<humphreybc> there is no picture for me
<humphreybc> I thought it would have pulled it from my google profile or my facebook profile
<godbyk> oh!
<godbyk> I dunno.. lemme look.
<godbyk> in the Messaging app, there's a pic by my name.
<humphreybc> lame
<humphreybc> maybe it'll update eventually
<nisshh> godbyk: ah, that reminds me
<godbyk> in the Talk app, it's just a grey icon for me, though.
<godbyk> nisshh: what's that?
<nisshh> godbyk: iv taken over the Ubuntu Developers Manual from Rick, but i dont really know enough tex/latex stuff
<nisshh> godbyk: you know, all that formatting stuff
<nisshh> all iv figured out so far is how to include chapters
<nisshh> godbyk: could you point me at some good docs or something?
<godbyk> nisshh: sure. there was just a link I saw about that earlier. let me find it.
<humphreybc> Y'know what's annoying?
<nisshh> godbyk: cool, thanks
<nisshh> humphreybc: no, whats annoying?
<humphreybc> This down time we have in between releases where it's too early to write new stuff
<nisshh> yea
<humphreybc> I'm running maverick at the moment and there isn't much we can write about, and we certainly can't take screenshots yet
<godbyk> nisshh: here it is: http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/11/what-is-the-best-book-to-start-learning-latex
<nisshh> iv been out of sync with whats happening though, so i havent noticed
<nisshh> godbyk: awesome, thanks
<godbyk> I've been busy with other work, so I haven't been spending too much time with the manual project lately.
<godbyk> Seems like everyone else has been busy elsewhere, too.
<godbyk> I'm glad we're getting these translations out, though.
<godbyk> It'll definitely get easier (and more streamlined) as we go on.
<nisshh> godbyk: what the hell? im getting some kind of error
<godbyk> nisshh: ah, crap. that site's still in private beta.
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> one of the links they provide is this: http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/info/beginlatex/beginlatex-3.6.pdf which appears to be pretty decent.
<godbyk> let me paste some other links, too.
<nisshh> ok
<godbyk> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX
<humphreybc> godbyk: I know, the translations are great. I'm looking forward to announcing the german one on planet ubuntu
<godbyk> http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Wiki/index.php/LaTeX:About
<godbyk> http://math.bard.edu/bloch/basicLaTeX.pdf
<nisshh> godbyk: and these wikibooks and pdfs teach you all the formatting and everything?
<godbyk> nisshh: well, they'll teach you the formatting commands for latex, and tell you about some of the packages that are available.
<nisshh> godbyk: right, cool
<godbyk> if you want a book that covers everything, I'd recommend The LaTeX Companion by Mittelbach and Goossens.
<nisshh> ok
<godbyk> It's a huge tome that covers a ton of packages and everything.
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> i probably dont need to know everything]\
<godbyk> nisshh: Are you wanting to have your own book design?
<nisshh> just more than i currently do
<godbyk> in that case, the earlier links will probably suffice.
<nisshh> well, currently the dev manual looks almost exactly like our manual
<nisshh> because Rick took the initial code from e1
<godbyk> ok
<nisshh> so i thought we dont really want them to look the same
<nisshh> plus i need to learn how to do all the title page stuff
<godbyk> right.
<nisshh> and learn all the commands
<godbyk> What I usually recommend with regard to book design is to write the content first.  And then we'll design the book around that content.
<nisshh> geez, thats alot of stuff
<nisshh> yea, thats the plan
<godbyk> The content will tell us what kind of formatting and styles we'll need.
<godbyk> I'm happy to help out with the book design side of things, too.
<nisshh> i am already seeing trends with the content
<nisshh> and we only have 3 or 4 chapters drafted in there
<nisshh> that would be great if you could help out
<nisshh> but probably not necessary until later
<nisshh> godbyk: was it vish who did the title page for the manual?
<godbyk> I think vish made the icons, but I think the final design was thorwil's.
<nisshh> right
<godbyk> I could be wrong, though, it was a while back. :)
<nisshh> yea, hehe
<godbyk> Do you have a repository for the content so far?
<humphreybc> be back in a sec, rebooting into windowz
<nisshh> godbyk: yep, just let me grab you a link
<godbyk> 'kay
<nisshh> godbyk: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-developer-manual/ubuntu-developer-manual/trunk
<godbyk> got it.
<nisshh> godbyk: im not sure when Rick grabbed the stuff from e1 or if he grabbed it from e2
<nisshh> but i suspect its from at least 4-6 weeks ago
<godbyk> yeah, I helped him find all the files he needed.
<godbyk> I don't recall which branch I had him snag.
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> I need to merge some stuff from e1 to e2 anyway.
<godbyk> (mostly translation-related tweaks)
<nisshh> yep
<nisshh> is it worth getting stuff from e2 and putting it with what i already have?
<godbyk> probably not yet.
<nisshh> fair enough
<godbyk> there are also likely a few ubuntu-manual-specific things in the document class that should be moved elsewhere, too.
<godbyk> but we can deal with all that when we do the book design.
<nisshh> godbyk: what i have so far has pretty much everything i need i think
<godbyk> okay
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> anything that's notably different from the ubuntu manual?
<nisshh> i dont think so
<nisshh> apart from the content
<godbyk> anything in particular you want to do differently design-wise?
<godbyk> (if not then our work's mostly done. ;-))
<nisshh> well, i just thought it would be shitty to have both manuals look almost identical
<godbyk> It depends on a few factors, I guess:
<godbyk> 1. If you want the book to appear like part of a series/collection of related books (of which the Ubuntu Manual is a part), then you'll want the designs to be shared.
<godbyk> 2. If the design meets the needs of the content, then why fret about whether it's similar to another book's design?
<godbyk> 3. If you want to make a point that this book isn't associated with / related to the Ubuntu manual, then you may want a different design.
<godbyk> 4. If your book's content doesn't require the same design elements, then you'll want a diff. design.
<godbyk> 5. I forgot what the fifth point was.
<godbyk> :)
<nisshh> shit, i never thought of any of those :)
<nisshh> godbyk: how come your so damn smart?
<nisshh> :)
<godbyk> heh.. I read a lot. :)
<godbyk> at some point, we (being the Ubuntu Manual Project) will need to talk about the book design for the Maverick edition.  Do we want to keep the same design?  Just make a few tweaks?  Overhaul the design?
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> now that you have mentioned it i suppose both manuals are sort of under the same banner arent they?
<nisshh> so the designed should be similar, if not the same
<nisshh> with maybe the exception of the title page
<godbyk> The current design is, of course, not perfect, either.  There are definitely some things I want to tweak. :)
<nisshh> such as?
<godbyk> Is there a deadline for the release of your manual?
<nisshh> we were hoping for a maverick final release, but i dont think we will get there
<nisshh> so id say, no, there is no deadline
<godbyk> I need to tweak the typeface size and line spacing a bit.  I want to find a better way to code the underlying margin note stuff (but that may be outside the scope of a simple design tweak).
<nisshh> yep
<godbyk> It'd be nice if the new Ubuntu font could be incorporated -- we'll see how that goes.
<nisshh> yea, that would be nice actually
<godbyk> And then there's the brand new Ubuntu/Canonical branding stuff. We may want to incorporate some elements from that.
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> are all the screenshots the same size in the manual?
<godbyk> they're the same resolution and scale.
<nisshh> ah
<godbyk> but from one language to the next, the scale may differ.
<nisshh> i was just going to say, you could save file size of the pdf if each screenshot was relative to whats in it
<nisshh> for example:
<nisshh> a sound menu screenshot does not need to be 800px wide in the pdf
<godbyk> oh, right.  yeah, the screenshots are cropped to show only what's relevant.  there are very few full-screen images.
<nisshh> if that was cropped right down, a decent chunk of bytes could be chopped out of the pdf
<nisshh> ah ok
<nisshh> godbyk: as it stands, the dev manual will be much smaller than the other manual, due to less screenshots and shorter and fewer chapters
<nisshh> there will probably be less than 25 screenshots in it
<godbyk> Gotcha.
<godbyk> What's being covered in the dev manual?
<nisshh> the manual is about creating your own small app while working through each chapter
<nisshh> so you end up with a nice little identica reader app at the end
<godbyk> A tutorial for writing a new app with Ubuntu? Neat!
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> If I may make a suggestion: any code examples you provide in the manual should be the best practice or best way of accomplishing that.
<nisshh> some of the stuff covered is: quickly, quickly-widgets, glade, desktopcouch, U1, etc
<godbyk> Because that code will be copied and pasted from that point forward.
<nisshh> your exactly right
<godbyk> So if your code is the 'easy but insecure' way of doing something, that'll be the code that finds its way into applications.  And then the applications will be insecure.
<nisshh> but you also have to remember that we are trying to keep it as simple as possible
<godbyk> Yeah, that's always the problem.
<nisshh> i guess we will have to find a balance in between simple and good code
<godbyk> But far too often, I see programming manuals/tutorials that give a couple lines of code and then make an off-hand remark about 'this is really a bad way to do this, but we don't want to confuse you with scary details on how to do it the proper way'.
<godbyk> and that code ends up getting copied verbatim.
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> but we have already solved part of that problem: quickly
<nisshh> generates known good code by default
<godbyk> quickly sounds intriguing.  I haven't had time to look at it yet, though.
<nisshh> its pretty cool
<nisshh> but not for people who can code like mad :)
<nisshh> if you know your stuff, your better off not using it
<godbyk> is it fairly limiting?
<godbyk> what's the downside?
<nisshh> well, yes and no
<nisshh> one sec
<nisshh> right
<nisshh> quickly generates templates
<nisshh> which you dont HAVE to use
<humphreybc> godbyk: http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/android/thread?tid=3a41f790937732e1&hl=en
<nisshh> humphreybc: that was one LONG reboot
<nisshh> :)
<humphreybc> oh no i just didn't open pidgin for a while
<nisshh> right.....
<godbyk> humphreybc: aha.  my number is Unknown.
<godbyk> so I have to find a way to edit the number on the sim card?
<humphreybc> apparently
<humphreybc> i've read through all the replies, none seem to work
<godbyk> I don't have another phone handy that can read sim cards.
<godbyk> well, my old german handy might.. but I doubt it has a charge anymore.
<humphreybc> me neither
<vish> nisshh: yup , what godbyk said , i did the alpha one with wolter's lynx
<godbyk> If the iPhone can edit the SIM card, why can't my N1?
<godbyk> hey, vish!
<humphreybc> it's stupid isn't it
<vish> godbyk: heya :)
<humphreybc> you'd think the android could
<humphreybc> sup vish
<nisshh> vish: right, but did you do the final e1 version?
<nisshh> or was that thorwil?
<godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, you would.
<godbyk> vish: how's it going? haven't chatted with you in forever, it seems.
<vish> nisshh: final was thorwil with me doing a few icons
<nisshh> vish: right
<vish> godbyk: gah , busy .. :(
<humphreybc> has to continue designing a t shirt
<humphreybc> oops, forgot the me thing
<godbyk> vish: I hear ya. Same here.  I think everyone's been busy the past few months.
<vish> humphreybc: t shirt?  for OMG?
<humphreybc> vish: nope, for uni :P
<humphreybc> but i have a truckload of OMG! work to do
<vish> humphreybc: hehe that site is gaining a life of its own!
<humphreybc> not just omg ubuntu
<vish> humphreybc: omg suse is also by do0d ? wow! i just thought it was someone else doing the same stuff... I guess he ran out of OMG news in Ubuntu ;p
<humphreybc> i'm working on a new site
<humphreybc> we own a number of sites :)
<humphreybc> omg suse is written by someone else though
<nisshh> what site are you working on humphreybc?
<humphreybc> nisshh: ubuntu gamer
<humphreybc> and a new site that we're launching later in the year that I can't tell you about :)
 * nisshh lets out an excited squeak!
<nisshh> humphreybc: im a member of the au loco and we just recently started our own gaming clan :)
<humphreybc> groovy
<nisshh> :)
<nisshh> wow
<nisshh> i just saw a giant netsplit happen in 6 channels at once
<godbyk> Yeah, I was feeling pretty lonely here.
<nisshh> meh
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> I was here godbyk
<godbyk> It said you had abandoned me, too, humphreybc.
<humphreybc> aw
<nisshh> lol
<nisshh> group hug?
 * godbyk opens his arms
<godbyk> what, nobody?
 * humphreybc hugs back
<godbyk> yay!
<nisshh> wait for me!
<nisshh> not my fault im lagging!
<godbyk> aw, and here I thought you'd shunned me, nisshh! :)
<nisshh> never!
<godbyk> hey, nisshh: is there a nice wiki page for a C programmer who wants to get started with helping Ubuntu (as a C developer)?
<godbyk> something that lists ways they can help.  (write patches for bugs, join an existing project team, start a new project, etc.)
<godbyk> I guess this might work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment
<nisshh> godbyk: dude, you do know im a python programmer, not a C programmer right?
<godbyk> yeah.
<godbyk> I just figured you might know what getting-started-as-a-developer guides were out there.
<nisshh> but i am learning C
<nisshh> ah, right
<godbyk> I just got an email from someone who's a C programmer (embedded systems, mostly) who wanted to get started helping out Ubuntu. (He's been using it for 2-3 years.)
<nisshh> godbyk: well, there arent really ubuntu-dev guides out there
<nisshh> right
<godbyk> I know.  Get busy! :)
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> just tell him to find an app written in C or something
<nisshh> or a part of ubuntu written in C
<nisshh> and tell him to hack on it or fix bugs
<godbyk> I pointed him to that link and suggested he could start by submitting patches to bugs or find a project he's interested in and contact the dev team and offer to help.
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> compiz 0.9 is written in C
<godbyk> I thought they were rewriting it in C++.
<nisshh> but alot of projects use python now
<nisshh> it was C i thought
<godbyk> I think it was originally C and is/was being rewritten in C++.
<godbyk> From compiz.org: "The latest release of Compiz is 0.8.6. A C++ rewrite has been announced on 24th December 2009 and is about (June 2010) to be released as a beta version. This is a major rework of the whole project, aimed at easing future development."
<nisshh> ah right
<nisshh> always get mized up with C and C++
<godbyk> Apparently C programmers do, too.  :-P
<nisshh> lol
<godbyk> (I have to refactor so much C++ code written by C programmers.  "C++ is just C with classes, right?"  Gah!)
<nisshh> hehe
 * nisshh uses python for exacly that reason
<nisshh> exactly*
<godbyk> I'm writing a little python script right now to parse some CSV files, mash the data together, and spit out some line graphs and some stats.
<godbyk> But I rarely write python code, so it's quite messy at the moment and needs to be rewritten from scratch.
<godbyk> (also, since I don't get to use python much, I don't know most of the pythonic ways of doing things, so it's probably grossly inefficient)
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil. If you get some time today, could you whip up one of your famous wraparound covers? :)
<thorwil> godbyk: i'm about to get to it
<godbyk> It's past my bedtime.  G'night!
<godbyk> thorwil: Awesome. Thanks!
<thorwil> nite!
<godbyk> After that, I think we'll be ready for the release of the German translation -- unless you're aware of any last minute bugs we need to fix.
<godbyk> Gute Nacht!
<pkramerruiz> Hi everyone!
<pkramerruiz> Can anyone tell me if the developers of "software-sources" have an channel-sources?
<pkramerruiz> Cause I want to run the process for selecting the best Mirror server, every time before making an update to some program, for obtain more speed downloading
<dutchie> pkramerruiz: i don't think there is a channel just for the software sources app
<dutchie> pkramerruiz: to be honest, once you've picked a mirror, it's not really worth checking all of the speeds every time
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil. Thanks for the cover!
<thorwil> hi godbyk. np
<godbyk> thorwil: did you notice anything else that we need to do before releasing the german edition?  or shall I assume all is well and that I can proceed?
<thorwil> godbyk: didn't look beyond the cover, don't intend to change that now ;)
<godbyk> thorwil: fair enough. :)
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-28
<godbyk> humphreybc: I just released the German edition.
<humphreybc> gnarly!
<godbyk> (Hopefully I didn't forget any of the steps.)
<brandonj> congrats on the release
<godbyk> Now I can go through my inbox and archive all the German- and Greek-related emails. :-)
<godbyk> I'm going to head to bed and read for a while.  I'm done staring at the computer screen today. :-)
<humphreybc> godbyk: beautiful work on the translations
<humphreybc> I forgot we had all of those translated screenshots as well :P
<humphreybc> So stoked how nice the translated editions look
<humphreybc> Anyone know the username and password for http://ubuntu-manual.org/stats ?
<dutchie> humphreybc: gnarly? do normal kiwis say that, or just you?
<humphreybc> just me
<dutchie> thought it might be
<humphreybc> you thought correct
<humphreybc> although I'd say more kiwis say gnarly than poms say gnarly
<Pa_trick17> hi - anyone of the german translation team here (or can anyone give me a room/member)?
<nisshh> Pa_trick17: hmmm, there was someone from that team in here the other day, i cant remember who it was though
<nisshh> Pa_trick17: i think there is an #ubuntu-translators channel
<nisshh> try in there
<Pa_trick17> nisshh: thanks anyway - i'll give #ubuntu-translators a try
<nisshh> Pa_trick17: cool, good luck :)
<Pa_trick17> Anyone have permission to assign Translation Bug-Reports and can help me out?
<nisshh> Pa_trick17: i dont know if i do, but give me a link to the bug
<nisshh> ill see if i can
<Pa_trick17> nisshh: Sure: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+bug/610777 -> shall be assigned to (or even better if you could change "affects") Ubuntu German Translators (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-de)
<Pa_trick17> nisshh: i'll have to go now ... would be great if you can help me with this bug. if not i'll contact the team member jochen skullj - think i'll have to do this anyway, because bug-reporting doesn't work as described in their launchpad-site given above. Thank you very very much!!! :-D Have a great day!
<daker> godbyk, nice work :)
<humphreybc> hey daker, how're things?
<daker> i don't know :)
<humphreybc> did I say something?
<nisshh> lol
<daker> humphreybc, back
<humphreybc> lol okay
<daker> So, You Were Saying?
<thorwil> daker: humphreybc did say something: "<humphreybc> did I say something?"
<daker> thorwil, \o/
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> I just asked how you were daker
<daker> not very good but it's fine
<daker> humphreybc, i thought you were asking about the German edition :D
<humphreybc> haha nope
<thorwil> which reminds me ...
<daker> beause i don't anything, it's godbyk who has done everything
<thorwil> godbyk: in german edition "Live-CD" looks odd with the not-so-bold small-caps CD. (i guess it's the same in english, but somehow manged to not notice)
<humphreybc> http://twitter.com/MatthiasHeil/status/19733857928
<humphreybc> woohoo!
<daker> GREAT
<thorwil> ah, that means nothing, germans are known to get excited and double rainbow happy easily!!
<daker> \o/
<daker> humphreybc, thorwil http://stats.ubuntu-manual.org/downloads/?id=28
<humphreybc> https://twitter.com/#search?q=ubuntu%20manual
<humphreybc> daker: how do I see all our stats for all time?
<daker> there no way actually
<humphreybc> :(
<humphreybc> so we can't tell how many times the manual has been downloaded now?
<daker> yes we can
<humphreybc> oh okay
<humphreybc> give me some stats then :
<humphreybc> :)
<daker> tell godbyk he can do that
<humphreybc> lol okay
<daker> i don't have access the db
 * humphreybc is off to bed
<humphreybc> night everyone!
<daker> hey everybody we are at the 1er position on google results
<daker> http://www.google.co.ma/search?hl=en&q=ubuntu+manual&btnG=Rechercher&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
<nisshh> daker: wooo! finally!
<daker> YES
<nisshh> we have been 3rd or so for ages
<daker> we beat ubuntumanual.org
<daker> & ubuntuguide.org
<daker> same thing for the Greek version
<daker> http://www.google.co.ma/search?hl=en&q=%CE%95%CE%B3%CF%87%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%BF+%CF%87%CF%81%CE%AE%CF%83%CE%B7%CF%82+%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85+Ubuntu&btnG=Rechercher&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
<daker> some thing for in german
<daker> http://www.google.co.ma/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Ubuntu-Handbuch
<godbyk> thorwil: Ah, non-bold small-caps.  Crap!  I had noticed that eons ago and I meant to fix it, but apparently didn't.  I think at one point I had gone through and removed the \acronym tags from the section headings, but perhaps I just dreamed it.
<thorwil> godbyk: don't sweat, you still rock ;)
<godbyk> thorwil: We'll just blame the font designer for not supplying a full set of bold glyphs. ;-)
<daker> godbyk, ping
<godbyk> daker: pong
<daker> euh, [12:49] <humphreybc> so we can't tell how many times the manual has been downloaded now?
<daker> can you do a selection from the table urls
<daker> there is a filed which store the number of downloads
<daker> do you remember ?
<godbyk> Here are the results:
<godbyk> http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/screen	24
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/screen	124369
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/print	7289
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/js/countdown/countdown.js	3
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/screen/Getting_Started_with_Ubuntu_10.04.pdf	1
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/screenhttp:/ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/screen	1
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US	7
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/	22
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/screen/	11
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/screen&ei=EgHhS6rbD5fE3AKggr23BQ	1
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/.google-analytics.com/ga.js	2
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/.google-analytics.com/.google-analytics.com/ga.js	2
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/.google-analytics.com/.google-analytics.com/.google-analytics.com/ga.js	2
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/.google-analytics.com/.google-analytics.com/.google-analytics.com/.google-analytics.com/ga.js	2
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/4	1
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/screen/favicon.ico	1
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/el/screen	2333
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/el/print	55
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/en_US/text/javascript	1
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/el/screen.	3
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/el	1
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/de/screen	958
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/de	5
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/de/print	17
<godbyk> http://ubuntu-manual.org/download/10.04/de/	30
<daker> what the hell
<godbyk> that's the url and the number of clicks.
<daker> oki
<godbyk> So 124,369 downloads of the English screen version.
<daker> which means the total is 135,021 downloads
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-29
<infosoft> Hello everyone! :)
<nisshh> infosoft: hey dude
<infosoft> I have a question. Is it known when there will be lucid-e2 "writing freeze"?
<nisshh> ....
<nisshh> what is with people doing that when i go to answer their question!?
<humphreybc> they don't like you
<humphreybc> it's because you're australian
<nisshh> humphreybc: is that discrimination against cool people i hear?
<humphreybc> no, just discrimination.
<nisshh> we are way cooler than you NZ's
<humphreybc> don't think so
<nisshh> :)
<nisshh> humphreybc: someone asking a question and then quitting has happened like 10 times this week in our loco channel
<nisshh> impatient little bastards im telling you
<infosoft> Sorry. Konversation application seems to be unstable
<nisshh> i figured
<nisshh> heh
<nisshh> just had a little rant while you were gone :)
<infosoft> Arch Linux + Konversation = Bad idea
<nisshh> meh
<nisshh> infosoft: anyway back to your question
<nisshh> humphreybc: is there a writing freeze date for e2?
<thorwil> australia makes me think of crocodile dundee, but there's lord of the rings and xena for NZ
<humphreybc> nah
<nisshh> thorwil: ha
<nisshh> thorwil: thought you were on my side....
<nisshh> humphreybc: is that a nah there isnt a date for e2 writing freeze?
<nisshh> or something else?
<infosoft> Some of the translators (including me) don't want to loose translations (that happens due to manual fixes/updates) and to waste their time. It would be better to know freeze date :)
<nisshh> infosoft: talk to humphreybc about that if your concerned
<dutchie> infosoft: if you're a translator and your edition is not done yet, you'd be much better off doing e1
<infosoft> I don't like e1 :D
<dutchie> why not?
<nisshh> infosoft: whats wrong with e1?
<thorwil> i suspect it's just e2 > e1
<infosoft> Well, ... our group (except few people) don't know almost anything about LaTex. There's much errors done...
<infosoft> And now all translators are having holidays/gone/etc.
<nisshh> but how does that make e1 better?
<infosoft> So now I don't need to worry about others grammar/style mistakes and that's why I thought I should translate e2 while others might do something with e1 :D
<nisshh> infosoft: e1 is supposed to be being translated because e2 is still being edited
<infosoft> But there's much errors made by editors who wrote them.
<nisshh> who wrote what?
<nisshh> e1?
<infosoft> Especially section about Network Manager
<infosoft> Yes, e1
<nisshh> infosoft: thats exactly why we are releasing e2....
<nisshh> but you should still be translating e1
<nisshh> because not all translations are released for e1 yet
<adahendra> hello, all
<adahendra> i'm hendra, need help how i can contribute to ubuntu-manual , i want to contribute translation into Bahasa,Indonesa
<adahendra> indonesia
<infosoft> adahendra: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<infosoft> In your case: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e1/+pots/ubuntu-manual/id/+translate
<infosoft> But firstly it's recommended to join Ubuntu Indonesian Translators group (https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-l10n-id)
<adahendra> ok thank you infosoft
<infosoft> I'm glad I was able to help you :)
<dutchie> the new, shorter humphreybc
<hbc> indeed
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-30
<zkriesse> Hello manual-sies!
<thorwil> good morning!
<dutchie> guten morgen thorwil
<thorwil> ^^
<dutchie> ich spreche gut Deutsch
<thorwil> dutchie: do you have regular training? i found that even daily reading and writing english doesn't help much with speaking it :}
<dutchie> i used to
<dutchie> studied it at school up to AS level, so I gave up last year
<thorwil> aww
 * thorwil -> mittagessen
<thorwil> http://lolsnaps.com/upload_images/real/589.jpg
 * humphreybc now has a company. http://ohso.co
<dutchie> what happened to "Danger Hump"?
<humphreybc> wasn't short enough lol
<dutchie> where is it registered?
<humphreybc> not registered just yet, but in the UK soon
<dutchie> ah
<humphreybc> not a lot of point registering it right now
 * dutchie tries out the android u1 app
<humphreybc> that was seriously the fastest A name DNS resolution I'veseen
<humphreybc> registered the domain like 15 minutes ago lol
<nisshh> humphreybc: you have a company?
<nisshh> humphreybc: and what does this company do?
<humphreybc> aye
<humphreybc> go to the website and have a look :)
<nisshh> ah
<nisshh> you and joey
<humphreybc> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/439
<dutchie> appropriate time for the jaws theme to come on shuffle
<nisshh> heh
<humphreybc> hahahaha
<nisshh> humphreybc: that post must be about the red-hat canonical GNOME contrib thing?
<humphreybc> yes nisshh
<nisshh> strange way of putting it if you ask me
<nisshh> :)
<nisshh> humphreybc: are you guys planning on hiring people eventually?
<nisshh> or is that part a joke?
<humphreybc> We already have a couple of people "hired" but they're not being paid at the moment. Eventually we'd love to pay them and more people.
<dutchie> do you want to pay me?
<humphreybc> Right now we simply don't have any money to pay anyone
<humphreybc> not even ourselves
<humphreybc> and Joey works full time on this
<nisshh> how are you planning on making money?
<humphreybc> lots of ways
<humphreybc> but if I told you, I'd have to kill you ;)
<nisshh> ah i see the part about the store
<nisshh> pfff
<nisshh> right....
<nisshh> humphreybc: id love to help you guys out, if i end up getting paid at some point, then great
 * nisshh is broke and desperate for monies :)
<humphreybc> join the club dude
<nisshh> the broke club or work for humphreybc and joey clob?
<nisshh> club*
<humphreybc> the broke club haha
<nisshh> damn! :)
<nisshh> humphreybc: im saving up for a new comp, about $150 bucks to go, but my parents refuse to help me out :(
 * nisshh shakes his fist at his parents
<humphreybc> haha bummer
<nisshh> yea
 * humphreybc wants a motorbike
<nisshh> hehe, its ironic, my dad doesnt want to "waste" money buying me a computer, but he is buying me my bro and himself, a motorbike each for christmas :)
<thorwil> humphreybc: check the kerning of T on http://www.ubuntugamer.com/wp-content/themes/omgholding/images/elegant-blue-block.jpg
<nisshh> well, he said he was going to anyway
<humphreybc> thorwil: I know
<humphreybc> that's an older logo
<humphreybc> there's a newer one that I need to replace it with but Joey has to give me the login details so I can do that
<daker> hey guys
<daker> i need review on this http://ubuntuone.com/p/B3h/
<daker> s/review/reviews
<nisshh> daker: you want to know what we think?
<daker> if you want
<humphreybc> does anyone know how I log in to a wordpress site admin thing that's not hosted on wordpress?
<popey> yes
<popey>  /wp-admin
<humphreybc> you rock Alan
<humphreybc> three cookies for you!
<popey> :)
<popey> om nom nom
<nisshh> daker: i think it looks good, but i know jack shit about design
 * popey updates his wp to 3.0.1
<daker> nisshh, thanks
<nisshh> np :)
<nisshh> humphreybc: the countdown on the gamer site is when it goes live?
<humphreybc> nisshh: that would be the idea, yes
<nisshh> right
<flan> What fixes does 3.0.1 bring?
<popey> lots
<popey> outlined in the changelog at wp.com
 * flan continues to exist in a state of still-not-moved-in limbo.
<flan> (No home Internets)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> right, i'm off to bed
<humphreybc> have a good friday everyone, night!
<nisshh> night humphreybc :)
<dutchie> !ping
<manualbot> pong
<dutchie> back \o/
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> now you just need it to do cool things like the omg!ubuntu! bot
<trijntje> Hi all, LP is acting up again. Yesterday I reviewed all suggestions for the manual for Dutch but now it shows 347 suggestions again
<trijntje> I'm quite sure those are not all new suggestions done by the dutch team
<trijntje> I have to go now, I'll repost tomorrow
#ubuntu-manual 2010-07-31
 * flan pilfers neighbour-wifi.
<flan> (For a good cause)
<trijntje>  Hi all, LP is acting up again. Yesterday I reviewed all suggestions for the manual for Dutch but now it shows 318 suggestions again
<trijntje> and those suggestions weren't submitted in the last few days
 * jenkins is back from holidays
<thorwil> jenkins: so you're all relaxed and will double your efforts because of that now? :)
<jenkins> well I am still busy as anything here
<jenkins> I would like to get as much done as possible
<jenkins> flan: have you contacted the person who has applied for quickshot memebship? If not I will.
 * jenkins remembers flan will not be up for another 2 hours
<trijntje> Hi all, something strange is up with dutch translations, can anyone help?
<nisshh> trijntje: dutch translations of e1 or e2?
<trijntje> nisshh, e1
<trijntje> I reviewed all suggestions two day'
<trijntje> s ago but now it shows over 300 suggestions again, and those aren't from the last two day's
<nisshh> trijntje: hmmm, sorry i dont have a clue, iv never done translating so i dont know what issues there could be
<trijntje> nisshh, Do you know who might know more of this? I'm hoping things could be reverted to the state they were in a few day's ago with all suggestions reviewd
<trijntje> *reviewed
<nisshh> trijntje: i doubt things could be reverted
<trijntje> nisshh, thats bad, it took me a few day's to review and correct all suggestions
<trijntje> anyway, someone who know LP still needs to check out what happened to make sure it doesn't happen again
<nisshh> yea
<flan> jenkins needs more being online when I'm online.
 * flan wonders if Freenode has MemoServ.
<flan> It does. Yay/
<flan> Now to hope he checks it.
<jenkins> thanks flan
 * jenkins wow google images is like a mosaic with no gaps
<jenkins> be back again later
<jenkins> how has everyone been this week?
<thorwil> straight 8.64 with an orange tint
<jenkins> what is that thorwil?
<thorwil> it's pulled
<thorwil> out of thin air
<jenkins> right ....
<thorwil> creating a t-shirt design for the chicago loco and i ended up trying to keep the heads at a minimum of a 1/8 th inch
<thorwil> heads of the CoF, that is
<thorwil> inch, pah!
<jenkins> hehe
<jenkins> be back later
<c7p> hello world
<thorwil> hi and goodby c7p :)
<jenkins> flan: have you e-mailed moritatux, they applied 54 minutes ago
<flan> I didn't get an e-mail for that one yet.
<flan> Why the sudden surge in interest?
<ZachK_> Hello fellow manualers
<dutchie> lo ZachK_
<ZachK_> Hey guys
 * ZachK_ is zkriesse 
<ZachK_> This is just my iPod nick
<jenkins> flan: I will e-mail i have no clue why the surge
<jenkins> does anyone know if ben brought www.quickshot.org like he said he would? it now says "Quickshot's new website is coming soon!"
<jenkins> godbyk ^ ?
<godbyk-sagan> jenkins: someone else bought it and forwarded it to the server.
<jenkins> our server?
<jenkins>  /your
<godbyk-sagan> yeah
<jenkins> do we know who it was?
<godbyk-sagan> Horia Adelean
<godbyk-sagan> (per the whois info)
<godbyk-sagan> I spoke with him on irc a couple weeks ago
<jenkins> flan: that person was someone joining the manual team, I get e-mails about that now as well
<jenkins> godbyk-sagan: random
<jenkins> thanks to him
<jenkins>  /her
<godbyk-sagan> jenkins: yeah, i thought it was kinda cool, too.
<jenkins> it is :)
<jenkins> when were they last online?
<jenkins> on the whois
<godbyk-sagan> I'm don't recall their nick. And it was on my home pc, so I can't dig up the logs at the moment.
<godbyk-sagan> (I'm at my parents' house for the weekend.)
<godbyk-sagan> I don't know that I've seen them since.
<godbyk-sagan> Was just kind of a drive-by act of kindness, it seemed. :)
<jenkins> thanks godbyk-sagan
#ubuntu-manual 2010-08-01
<dutchie> godbyk-sagan: i'm failing at latex again, can you help?
<jenkins> dutchie: I will have ago if you like
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: sure. what's up?
<dutchie> godbyk-sagan: http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/invoice/ # Why can't I do "sudo tlmgr install invoice"?
<dutchie> godbyk-sagan: any ideas?
<dutchie> godbyk-sagan: i'm going to bed now, but if you work out what's going on, highlight/pm me
<jenkins> night all
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: it looks like it may not be packaged for TexLive.
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: if you want to just try it out, download the zip file from http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/invoice/, unzip it, and copy the invoice.def and invoice.sty files to the same directory as your .tex file.
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: Then you should be able to use \usepackage[whatever-options]{invoice}.
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: hey
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: got a minute?
<godbyk-sagan> nisshh: Sure. What's up?
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: there are some code formatting issues with the dev manual
<nisshh> well
<nisshh> either that or i dont know about a line-break command
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: basically if i want to display some multi-line code, regardless of what i do, it displays it as one line
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: do i have to use a line-break command or something??
<godbyk-sagan> nisshh: If you use the terminal environment, it should put the line breaks in the same place that they've been included in the source code.
<nisshh> ah
<godbyk-sagan> So \begin{terminal} My code on multiple lines \end{terminal}
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: i was using the /code command
<godbyk-sagan> ah, the \code command will only work for in-line code (which should be wrapped).
<nisshh> oh
<nisshh> no wonder it was not working
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: thanks dude, ill fix it
<godbyk-sagan> nisshh: no problem!
<godbyk-sagan> I'm not sure if those commands are explained well (or at all) in the style guide.
<godbyk-sagan> We should start a list of things to fix / add to the style guide.
<godbyk-sagan> (I think I started a list before. I'll have to find it.)
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: yea, it would be great, then people will know EXACTLY what each command is appropriate for
<nisshh> rather than guessing like i just did:)
<godbyk-sagan> nisshh: remind me sometime this week and I'll check the style guide and add something if necessary.
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: sure
<godbyk-sagan> If there's nothing else, I think I'll go read a book for a while.
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: even if you just give me the relevant info and i can update the style guide for you, if you busy doing other stuff?
<godbyk-sagan> sure thing.
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: sure, thanks again :)
<godbyk-sagan> I should set up a repository for the style guide itself.
<godbyk-sagan> Remind me to do that, too. :-)
<nisshh> ok
<godbyk-sagan> We have some other tools (mostly Python and shell scripts) that could go into a repository, as well.
<nisshh> that would be good
<nisshh> that way people could just grab the latest revision
<godbyk-sagan> Yeah, especially because they're otherwise just sitting on my hard drive where no one else can use them, modify them (fix them), etc.
<nisshh> yea
<godbyk-sagan> All right, I'm off to read some fiction.
<godbyk-sagan> G'night!
<nisshh> godbyk-sagan: ok, gnight :)
<dutchie> godbyk-sagan: thanks; now I just have to work out how to install realcalc
<nisshh> jenkins: hey dude, do you mind supporting me at my Ubuntu Membership meeting?
<jenkins> nisshh: when is it?
<jenkins> I don't mind :)
<nisshh> jenkins: tuesday coming up
<jenkins> what time?
<nisshh> 10am UTC
<nisshh> thought id give it a crack
<nisshh> see what happens :)
<jenkins> yea worth a go I will add something to your wiki page if you like but I can't be 100% that i can make it then. The family is at home and I have no clue what they plan to do. I will try an make the meeting as well
<nisshh> jenkins: yea, thats cool, if you cant make it just add to my wiki page
<jenkins> link?
<nisshh> oh
<nisshh> woops
<nisshh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RyanMacnish
<nisshh> jenkins: ^^^
<jenkins> cheers I will make sure I add something by tuesday
<nisshh> cool thanks
<jenkins> no problem
<nisshh> :)
<vish> hmm , where is hbc!
<vish> wth !  " you avatar/floating face too, looks like shit "  is that hbc commenting on his own blog ;p
<thorwil> ?
<vish> thorwil: http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/08/01/i-too-am-tired/
<vish> just today he was impersonating ivanka.. , so just was confused
<dutchie> asleep, i think
<dutchie> as it's 4:01 in the morning
<thorwil> vish: did he say something interesting as ivanka? did he maybe get in touch with his feminine side, the inner woman?
<dutchie> he was investigating impersonation on irc
<vish> thorwil: yeah , folks try to *be* the person they admire ;p
<vish> dutchie: there were a couple of others trying that out! someone tried to /nick to sabdfl
<vish> but ended up with sabdfl_
<nisshh> lol
<thorwil> vish: does that mean ivanka isn't registered but sabdfl is?
<nisshh> lame hacker noobs
<vish> thorwil: yup
<nisshh> someone was impersonating humphreybc huh?
<thorwil> nisshh: hacker noobs? curious kids :)
<nisshh> thorwil: same thing, i just have an name for them
<nisshh> :)
<vish> hmm , i'm writing a description for a game in SC: Abuse , how does this sound? > http://paste.ubuntu.com/471898/
<dutchie> "fighting enemies and defence systems" or "fighting defence systems"
<dutchie> and "start off", not "start-off"
<dutchie> otherwise, provided that's what the game's actually like, great ;)
 * vish makes changes..
<vish> dutchie: thanks! :)
<vish> ended up with.. http://paste.ubuntu.com/471903/
<dutchie> who is it that is ludicrously efficient at moderating the ML?
<dutchie> every time i get a "needs review" email, i check within ~20 minutes, and it's always done!
<nisshh> dutchie: sometimes, i do it, but sometimes i check and its already done! :)
<nisshh> its rediculous!
<godbyk-sagan> dutchie: I just handled the most recent one.
<godbyk-sagan> But it's the first I've done.
<dutchie> wahey, lucid works on my laptop
<jenkins> dutchie: people are very fast at moderating at the moment, every time i check its done. :)
<nisshh> jenkins: it is only two clicks :)
<nisshh> jenkins: also, dont forget about adding a testimonial to my wiki page yea?
<jenkins> I have not forgotten
<nisshh> hehe
 * nisshh needs more testimonials
<jenkins> night o/
<jenkins> flan: I have just relised that the user interface freeze for maverick is August 26th, we both need to finish our parts of quickshot
 * jenkins panics
<dutchie> you have 11 days to get it in before Feature Freeze
<jenkins> we never aimed to get in this release thank goodness
<dutchie> why not?
<jenkins> we just had not really thought about it, also it gives us time to fix bugs as this release is rather a rewrite
#ubuntu-manual 2011-07-25
<benonsoftware> Hi all
#ubuntu-manual 2011-07-30
<c7p> hello guys, how is it going ?
#ubuntu-manual 2011-07-31
<rickfosb> c7p: didn't think you were going to make it
 * stillnotcool is out of breath
<stillnotcool> Just made it!
<c7p> hey all :)
<hannie> Hi everybody
<stillnotcool> Hi hannie
<c7p> rickfosb: hopefully i did but i have to go in less than an hour
<godbyk-dirac> greetings.
<rickfosb> greetings all
<stillnotcool> Hi rickfosb
<CrustyBarnacle> Howdy all.
<synergetic> Evening :)
<synergetic> (or other relevant time-of-day :P )
<rickfosb> godbyk-dirac: would you do the honors, when ready?
<godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: sure
<godbyk-dirac> #start-meeting
<godbyk-dirac> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:02. The chair is godbyk-dirac.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<godbyk-dirac> [TOPIC] Matty progress reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  Matty progress reports
<rickfosb> This one is mine:
<c7p> sry for this rick, agenda here: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/3WfNyRf9Lg
<godbyk-dirac> thanks, c7p.
<rickfosb> From the spreadsheet, we have some fairly decent work going on.
<rickfosb> However,  The section needing the most work is needing some help.
<hannie> rickfosb, I still have to update the spreadsheet concerning Prologue
<rickfosb> I do have a lot of folks who have asked to help edit.. but few writers.
<rickfosb> I will continue to reach out for folks who may be able to provide content
<rickfosb> hannie:  thanks for that.
<CrustyBarnacle> I can take on additional writing duties. :-)
<hannie> any special subjects that need writers?
<rickfosb> The desktop section is needing some help
<rickfosb> Assignment sheet is here:https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtkeORuPIMxsdGtWRXlvdHB4bktTNkF5LTNwWU5KQnc&hl=en_US&authkey=CNDambUJ
<c7p> i have free time these days if you need someone, just let me know.
<rickfosb> Thanks c7p,  I will link you in with the Ubuntu Desktop team
<c7p> oke
<rickfosb> There are other sections that are not showing as much work; but i think the emphasis of change was Desktop
<rickfosb> CrustyBarnacle:  would you like to play in that sandbox as well?
<rickfosb> happy to have you!
<CrustyBarnacle> Absolutely :-)
<rickfosb> Great! look for my email later
<c7p> Is there any finished chapter or close to that status ?
<hannie> Yes, Prologue and Learning more are finished
 * stillnotcool high-fives hannie
<rickfosb> I think Trouble shooting is coming along as well
<c7p> cool
<CrustyBarnacle> Troubleshooting is close to finished.
<rickfosb> And Advanced topics is well underway;
<hannie> That's great!
<rickfosb> excellant CrustyBarnacle
<rickfosb> (if I could spell and type at the same time)
<godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: Do you think we have enough authors or should we try to recruit some more (fresh blood)?
<Kartik> Troubleshooting is almost improved.
<rickfosb> Hardware preferences, Working with Ubuntu, and Desktop are the three showing the least (or no) input on the work sheet.  And as I mentioned, I am most concerned about DT.
<rickfosb> I have three 'editors' contacting at the moment,  I will see if they would like to help with content.  Fresh is always welcome
<rickfosb> Thanks Kartik!
<rickfosb> I believe that sums up the current status.
<hannie> Are we on schedule?
<CrustyBarnacle> And, what is / would be our new schedule if we catch  up to Ubuntu release schedule?
<rickfosb> Our milestone was that copy content was to be complete this week.  I have 3 important sections that are not complete. so, no,  we are currently behind the original milesontes
<c7p> on schedule  content freeze is on 8/20
<rickfosb> Seeing the item on the agenda; (11.10) I don't know what content would have to be altered for teh LTS
<rickfosb> Without getting ahead of the agenda, I tend to agree with tyring to get the manual 'in sync'
<stillnotcool> (actually, I don't think 11.10 is an LTS?)
<hannie> it isn't
<rickfosb> sorry
<Kartik> Troubleshooting [Bugs] are continuously logged into spreadsheet and the list is increasing.
<stillnotcool> no problem ... just checking for my own knowledge
<rickfosb> which release would that be
<stillnotcool> 12.04?
<stillnotcool> I think?
<c7p> yes
<hannie> Lucid Lynx = 10.04
<stillnotcool> It's not officially an LTS release, but it most likely will be
<c7p> stillnotcool: actually it is
<rickfosb> godbyk: hannie:  what was the original thought on manual release?
<rickfosb> c7p: ?
<stillnotcool> So, I suppose we need to either accelerate our manual's release schedule (hasn't been our storng suit so far!) or "skip" an Ubuntu release to catch up.  Any other options?
<stillnotcool> c7p: Didn't know that official decision had been made. Very cool.
<Kartik> Are we in syn with the ubuntu versions?
<c7p> stillnotcool: i checked it from here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PReleaseSchedule
<godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: Original thought on manual release?
 * godbyk-dirac is a bit slow today!
<stillnotcool> ...and from that page: "While no decision to make this release an LTS has been made, here are the Ubuntu LTS Release Details"
<c7p> Kartik: for now, we are one edition behind :)
<rickfosb> yea, in the past, were we thinking of releasing a manual at every release, or just LTS?
<hannie> every release
<godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: Ah, every release.
<hannie> But translations every LTS
<stillnotcool> rickfosb: I think we've had that discussion once before, perhaps before you came on board as editor
<stillnotcool> ...and that was the consensus, yes :)
<godbyk-dirac> At one point we had discussed doing it each LTS, but I think we concluded that too many things change between LTSs.
<c7p> hannie: +1, we voted on a previous meetind, and no we didn't cocluded that for translations
<hannie> c7p, sorry, I was speaking for our translation team
<godbyk-dirac> Translations occur whenever a translation team gets up the nerve to translate a release.
<rickfosb> Cool.  So we just need to catch up on the missing sections.
<c7p> hannie: ok :)
<hannie> If there is not going to be too much difference between Natty and Oneiric, the work for the next version will be much less
<c7p> actually we have to talk a lot about how we will work for the coming releases, the coordination with the docs team etc but we are getting out of topic now
<rickfosb> If I were to try to keep up with the 'changes', is there a common location where siginificant changes are listed?  Seems like I saw something a year or so ago, but have lost track.
<stillnotcool> hannie: Looks like we'll have many changes to default programs (once again) between N and O, but large changes (like the inclusion of Unity) will be absent
<stillnotcool> rickfosb: Yes, it would be nice to have some kind of go-to master list of changes, something more easily digestible than release notes
<rickfosb> Mostly, I'm reading planet and watching for updates there
<rickfosb> So, to sum up on natty;  I'll link in a couple more of you for work on Desktop.  As others complete there sections, let me know and I'll find you a new home.
<c7p> we need some members of the team, to do that specific job, track the changes and new features of the upcoming releases
<c7p> ok let's go ahead
<godbyk-dirac> c7p: I think having folks on the look-out for new features and changes would be very helpful.
<hannie> rickfosb, if you need more help for the Desktop chapter, I am volunteering too
<stillnotcool> +1 c7p
<rickfosb> hannie: thank you!!!
<Kartik> Why are we lacking behind latest ubuntu version?
<hannie> Kartik, good question!
<godbyk-dirac> Kartik: We had a slow period during the maverick cycle and now we're playing catch-up.
<godbyk-dirac> As for why we're lagging behind on our natty milestones, I'm not sure.
<Kartik> Guys we need to identify our issues and come up with a solution?
<CrustyBarnacle> I think rickfosb already stated a need for writers/writing?
<stillnotcool> Kartik: I think the easiest solution is, for now, to continue to work as quickly as possible.
<rickfosb> All:  Part of this is also my issue.  We've had a busy summer here and I've not been as attentive on a  daily basis as I would have liked.  I think I have the bulk of that behind us here
<hannie> rickfosb, do you think we can get back on track now that you have more writers available?
<Kartik> we should be involved seriously and require more volunteers,
<stillnotcool> rickfosb has outlined a very aggressive, but very achievable, schedule for Natty
<rickfosb> hannie:  I believe that will help;  the desktop team was very responsive early on, then began to go 'dark'...
<c7p> i don't rick can tell if we can catch up the schedule, this depends totally on us
<c7p> so let's get do some hard work :)
<CrustyBarnacle> Sounds like we are all agreed to work a bit more in the next few weeks :-). Let's Roll!
<hannie> yes, but just promises won't do
<c7p> hannie: sure
<c7p> rickfosb: what's the next item ?
<rickfosb> I'll get a note out to the team members on the slow sections and add you guys in;  look for that today.
<godbyk-dirac> Shall we move forward on the agenda?
<stillnotcool> #action rickfosb to contact team members on slow sections and update team with their progress
<rickfosb> yes sir
<godbyk-dirac> Are we down to the Commodore stuff now?
<rickfosb> yes
<hannie> rickfosb, very good idea
<stillnotcool> that was mine
<godbyk-dirac> [TOPIC] Discuss Commodore USA outreach
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss Commodore USA outreach
<stillnotcool> So yesterday I mailed our list, indicating that Commodore USA appears to be shipping our manual with their new machines
<stillnotcool> which I think is pretty sweet
<Kartik> Lets us keep more volunteers so as in any situation, if something is wrong with Him/Her, then another will come into consideration, It's a 'Backup'!!!
<stillnotcool> godbyk-dirac did some forensics and confirmed that the manual appears to be ours
<stillnotcool> However, it looks as though the folks at Commodore have scaled the manual in an odd way, such that it actually "cuts off" notes and marginalia
<godbyk-dirac> Yeah. It's hard to tell for sure (at least in the video I've seen).
<c7p> stillnotcool: they must altered it a bit, but still it seems to be our manual -they have the right to modify the book ;)-
<stillnotcool> oh yes, completely their right
<hannie> open source
<godbyk-dirac> But it looks like they *might* have cropped off the margin notes (and captions) and maybe moved the running heads (the title and page number at the top of each page) to run down the side of each page.
<stillnotcool> Ah, okay
<godbyk-dirac> They're certainly welcome to alter the book.
<stillnotcool> yes, absolutely
<stillnotcool> I have no problem with that
<godbyk-dirac> The only concern I had was that if they wanted to have the PDF formatted for a different page size, I'd be happy to do that for them (so they could keep the captions and side notes).
<stillnotcool> godbyk-dirac suggested we contact them to ask if we can provide a custom-formatted version of the manual
<Kartik> rickfosb: Kindly let me know if you want us to work on other sections which are going slowly, we are always there to give our services.
<stillnotcool> just in case they didn't _want_ to cut those notes out of the book
<rickfosb> Kartik: thanks, will do.
<stillnotcool> but were forced to because of the pdf sizes we chose
<hannie> Who is going to contact Commodore?
<stillnotcool> If the manual appears as they'd like it to, then that's fine
<godbyk-dirac> I'm happy to shoot them an email to see what they think.
<stillnotcool> but if they would like to offer the manual with its original marginalia, then I think we should try to help them (if, of course, it is not too much for godbyk-dirac, our lead TeXtician)
<c7p> cool
<c7p> *our only beloved TEXician :P
<godbyk-dirac> It's fairly easy to define new page sizes and layouts and probably wouldn't take me too much time.
<godbyk-dirac> We'd just use the same content, of course.
<stillnotcool> Of course
<stillnotcool> And:
<stillnotcool> If you watch other C64X videos, you'll note that CUSA is shipping both 10.10 discs and 11.04 dics with new machines
<stillnotcool> Perhaps, godbyk-dirac, you might also let them know that we are working on the Natty manual?
<godbyk-dirac> stillnotcool: Sure.
<stillnotcool> Give them a progress report, let them know we're open to collaboation?
<hannie> Aha, I just wanted to ask if Commodore is going to continue with other versions like Natty
<stillnotcool> Admission: I am smitten with the C64 project, and want to partner if they're open to it
<stillnotcool> But if others think this is a waste of time
<stillnotcool> I am happy to dorp the issue
<hannie> stillnotcool, I just saw a picture of the new machine and it is really retro
<godbyk-dirac> [ACTION] godbyk will contact Commodore USA to see if they'd like help reformatting our manual and are interested in a Natty edition when it's finished.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  godbyk will contact Commodore USA to see if they'd like help reformatting our manual and are interested in a Natty edition when it's finished.
<stillnotcool> To me, though, it seems like a great opportunity to partner with a great upstart trying to ship machines with Ubuntu preinstalled
<rickfosb> +1 stillnotcool
<stillnotcool> And since the work on our part would be fairly minimal (and I believe everything godbyk-dirac says, because, well, he's the man), I think it's a no-brainer
<issyl0> rickfosb: Ping.
<issyl0> rickfosb: Sorry, I lost track of time.
<godbyk-dirac> We'll save the discussion of the Linux alternatives table for our next meeting as c7p has to leave soon.
 * issyl0 reads backscroll...
<rickfosb> :)
<godbyk-dirac> [TOPIC] Discuss switching focus from 11.04 to 11.10
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss switching focus from 11.04 to 11.10
<c7p> we had some thoughts to devote a page or more for linux alternative apps, so to help even more the newcomers
<godbyk-dirac> It looks like JasonO brought up this topic.
<c7p> the table is her
<c7p> e
<c7p> http://bit.ly/rjGMazÂ 
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bit.ly/rjGMazÂ 
<issyl0> (And heh, yes, the Working with Ubuntu chapter needs [some] author[s]... (I'm editor of it, but don't really feel up to writing it, and haven't heard anything else from the author...))
<godbyk-dirac> Does anyone have any thoughts on it?
<c7p> i'm in charge to finish it and write it on book
<c7p> where do you think this table should be placed ?
<rickfosb> issyl10:  I'll add that to the help needed list
<stillnotcool> c7p: I think we might save this issue for another meeting? (see above)
<issyl0> rickfosb: Thanks.
<c7p> stillnotcool: ok not big deal
<godbyk-dirac> c7p: Do you have time to discuss it now or should we wait 'til the next meeting?
<c7p> i have something more about the table
<c7p> i have to know how i will write this information
<c7p> represent this info*
<c7p> i think a paragraph for every app category is better than a simple table
<godbyk-dirac> c7p: I agree.  That would give you some space to discuss the alternatives a bit, too, in case there are important notes about them.
<godbyk-dirac> Known incompatibilities, missing features, maturity levels, etc.
<c7p> sounds good :)
<c7p> ok thx
<hannie> godbyk, +1
<stillnotcool> godbyk-dirac: +1
<stillnotcool> Do we know which chapter will house all c7p's hard work on that?
<godbyk-dirac> stillnotcool: I think we had discussed that at one point, but I don't recall the outcome.
<c7p> stillnotcool: we will talk about it on the next meeting
<stillnotcool> godbyk-dirac: You're right. But I forget, too. :)
<stillnotcool> c7p: Good deal!
<CrustyBarnacle> Working with Ubuntu?
<rickfosb> Learning more?  Advanced Topics? or earlier in the book sounds nice
<godbyk-dirac> c7p: Okay. We'll add this to the next meeting's agenda to continue the discussion.
<godbyk-dirac> Thanks, c7p.
<c7p> np, see you all. i have to go
<rickfosb> Next meeting:  I will set up a poll. first selection two weeks out, if ok with you all.
<Kartik> Yes.
<hannie> bye c7p
<godbyk-dirac> [TOPIC] Any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
<godbyk-dirac> If there are any other issues that you'd like to discuss, now's the time.  Feel free to chime in.
<hannie> I still want to know if translators can already start working on finished chapters
<godbyk-dirac> hannie: I think the translators should wait until the writing freeze for 11.04.
<godbyk-dirac> hannie: We haven't finished editing the chapters yet.
 * godbyk-dirac phone.. brb
<hannie> godbyk, but then we already have Oneiric
<CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: are we sticking to the current schedule? Was not clear to me.
<hannie> godbyk, but some chapters are finished and could already be translated
<rickfosb> CrustyBarnacle: yes, for now. (looking up milestone)
<Kartik> Yes, I would say that the instructions sheet requires some changes for new, Volunteers...
<godbyk-dirac> hannie: My fear is that our latex-to-pot converter may not play nicely, though.  If we create a .pot file and upload it to launchpad and let you translate a chapter and then we upload a new pot file later, you may have to reapprove the previous translations (or worse).
<hannie> godbyk-dirac, how about offline translations (.tex files)
<CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: Beginning on the next release (12.04) we work  on, can we rename the "style-guide" to "latex-primer" or such, so to avoid confusion with the Doc Team Style Guide?
<godbyk-dirac> hannie: You're suggesting we skip the .pot files and you just create a translated .tex file directly?   That's certainly possible.
<godbyk-dirac> CrustyBarnacle: There's a bunch more style-guide-like material that I'd like to add to the style guide. I just haven't taken the time to do it yet.
<hannie> yes, that's the idea. I do want to try if it works for our team. But I need to know when chapters are really finished
<godbyk-dirac> CrustyBarnacle: But you're right in that, at the moment, it is much more of a LaTeX primer than a style guide.  (It started out as a LaTeX primer when I was training the authors and editors during our first edition.)
<rickfosb> I defer to godbyk-dirac:  :-))
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk-dirac: Any reason we can't just use the Doc Team Style Guide?
<godbyk-dirac> CrustyBarnacle: We do use it, but we have more material that we'll be adding that complements it.
<godbyk-dirac> We also make use of the GNOME Documentation Style Guide.
<CrustyBarnacle> godbyk-dirac: OK.. got it, THanks!
<rickfosb> hannie: would it help if we add a local 'freeze' line to a chapter when we think we are done done and done?
<godbyk-dirac> hannie: We'd just create a new branch for your translation and let you translate the .tex files themselves.  You'd have to pull in newly finished chapters from the main branch occasionally, but it should work just fine.
<hannie> rickfosb, It would help if I can see it in the spreadsheet as soon as a chapter is finished (like Learning more and Prologue)
<godbyk-dirac> CrustyBarnacle: Basically, our style guide takes precedence over the doc team and gnome docs style guides if there's a disagreement. but otherwise, we follow those two style guides.
<hannie> godbyk, that is also a really cool solution
<godbyk-dirac> hannie: I'm not sure if it'll be better or worse than the typical translation workflow we've been using.  You miss out on the translation tools, but given our track record there, that may be a good thing. ;-)
<hannie> So: 1) spreadsheet info when chapter is finished 2) new branch for finished chapters. That would be great!
<rickfosb> hannie: OK, I'll look into getting that
<godbyk-dirac> hannie: Well, the new branch would be for your translation.
<hannie> We can certainly give it a try
<godbyk-dirac> Any other issues that anyone would like to bring up?
<rickfosb> Next meeting: sooner rather than later?
<godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: When is our next milestone?
<rickfosb> 8 20 freeze
<stillnotcool> Sounds good, rickfosb. Keeps us better in step with your calendar
<godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: Should we touch base sooner to check in on the progress of the authors/editors?  Or is that something you want to do privately?
<rickfosb> less than a month and we will have to push the last three sections hard
<rickfosb> I think sooner;  I can put up a poll for next weekend and the following and see what you guys can meet?
<godbyk-dirac> rickfosb: works for me.
<rickfosb> I CAN meet during the week; but thats up to you guys
<hannie> me too
<rickfosb> depends on time zones of course
<hannie> weekends ok
<CrustyBarnacle> rickfosb: Weekly status reports/updates from Editors? Use [LINK] http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org
<rickfosb> I'll get a poll out today for next weekend and try to keep ahead of our next milestone
<godbyk-dirac> Any other topics?
<rickfosb> CrsutyBarnacle: will do
<rickfosb> none here
<stillnotcool> nope
<hannie> No, there is work to do the coming week
<stillnotcool> hannie: indeed :)
<godbyk-dirac> All right, then.  Meeting adjourned!
<godbyk-dirac> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:13.
<stillnotcool> gotta run! bye, team!
<hannie> bye, see you all nest time
<CrustyBarnacle> Bye, all...
<rickfosb> bye
<c7p> godbyk-dirac: ping
#ubuntu-manual 2012-07-25
<matadoor> hi all! I have a question. Why the builds are so out-dated in this page: http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/ ? I would like to help translate it and this will be a very big help.
<matadoor> anybody?
#ubuntu-manual 2012-07-28
<patrickdickey> I'm here, but will be afk for about 20 minutes or so.
<patrickdickey> Hi Paddy.
<PaddyLandau> Hello godbyk and patrickdickey
<patrickdickey> hi godbyk
<godbyk> Greetings
<PaddyLandau> Shall we start?
<patrickdickey> Sure thing.
<godbyk> Sure.
<godbyk> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Jul 28 17:59:56 2012 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<godbyk> There we go. Now we're all official. :-)
<PaddyLandau> LOL, excellent!
<patrickdickey> :)
<PaddyLandau> First thing: We are here to discuss the technical possibilities for the website.
<PaddyLandau> We've had some excellent discussions via email.
<PaddyLandau> For the record, shall we summarise what we've done so far?
<godbyk> That sounds like a good idea.
<patrickdickey> Yep.
<PaddyLandau> OK...
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey and I have looked at WordPress for the simple reason that it is such a simple system, because godbyk has found it increasingly difficult given the current non-CMS website.
<PaddyLandau> The website needs to be easy to maintain, and easy to keep translations.
<PaddyLandau> So far, we have found a promising system and it works well -- I have set up a test website -- but it does have a couple of problems.
<PaddyLandau> The biggest one is an email we've just had that started to discuss comparing old and new versions for the translators.
<PaddyLandau> What have I left out?
<godbyk> I think that sums things up fairly well, PaddyLandau.
<godbyk> The biggest difficulty with our site is handling the translations, I think.
<patrickdickey> That pretty much sums it up I think. I am/was looking at seeing how the current test site will look in WordPress, in case we decide that we like the look of it. Or parts of it.
<godbyk> Being able to publish new manuals to the site is another issue.
<PaddyLandau> Publishing manuals to the website would be simple. (1) Upload the new manuals to a pre-agreed folder. (2) Update the website to point to the new manuals.
<patrickdickey> How does that happen in the current site? I mean do they download it from the site or does it get downloaded from somewhere else?
<godbyk> The way it works with the current site:
<godbyk> 1. I generate the final PDFs and upload them to our site.
<godbyk> 2. I hand-edit the PHP scripts (live, 'cause I'm crazy like that) to:
<godbyk> a. Bump  the version number.
<godbyk> b. Add the new manual to the list of dropdown menus on the downloads page.
<godbyk> c. Add a link to the Lulu print edition.
<godbyk> (Uploading the PDF to Lulu and creating a printed edition is another process entirely.)
<godbyk> d. Hope I didn't break anything along the way.
<PaddyLandau> There is a link from the website to Lulu, isn't there?
<godbyk> It used to be much more difficult than it is now. I've rewritten a lot of the PHP to simplify my life.
<godbyk> There is. You can click on a 'buy this book' badge on the front page to link to the lulu site.
<PaddyLandau> WordPress does have a nice advantage about breaking things: It lets you preview your changes before you commit, so you can test it to your heart's content before you press "Update".
<patrickdickey> If someone clicks that link, does it take them to the manual in their language? And is that handled on our site or on lulu?
<godbyk> I think WordPress will work well for the content of the site: instructions for installing LaTeX, using bzr, etc.; info about what we do; and so on.
<godbyk> I suspect that we'll need to write a separate system to manage the publishing of the manuals.
<godbyk> But we could have the publishing system tie into the WordPress database for usernames/passwords/permissions to help keep things in sync.
<godbyk> patrickdickey: That's handled by our site.
<godbyk> When you go to http://ubuntu-manual.org/buy/[manual edition]/[language code], it looks up the proper Lulu URL to forward you to.
<patrickdickey> So, we need to figure out how to get the language code from either the browser or Q-Translate, and add that to the download link?
<godbyk> This bit of redirection allows us to delete a Lulu book and republish it if there's some major error.
<godbyk> patrickdickey: Right. We'll need to get the language code from somewhere.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk, I suspect that all we would need is a little bit of PHP code in the WordPress post, or attached to the WordPress post.
<patrickdickey> My understanding is that Q-Translate gets it from the browser (or from the language switcher). So it should be stored somewhere in the plugin.
<PaddyLandau> Indeed.
<PaddyLandau> We can test this out fairly easily, and I am sure it won't be hard.
<godbyk> I don't expect it'd be difficult to get the language code somehow.
<godbyk> On the WordPress side of things..
<PaddyLandau> It's on the URL, so we can easily use that. Preferably, use a drop-down menu that allows choosing any of the translated manuals.
<godbyk> Let's say I have a page similar to http://ubuntu-manual.org/about
<godbyk> That page hasn't been edited in eons, but it'll serve as an example here.
<godbyk> If I modify the text of the English edition of that page, what happens?
<godbyk> How do the translators know that they need to update their translation for that page?
<godbyk> And what is the experience like for translators?
<PaddyLandau> OK, let's answer your questions one by one.
<patrickdickey> I think it depends on which option we select in Q-Translate. It automatically translates the page, either through the mo files or via a human translator if we have an account.
<PaddyLandau> If you modify the text of the English edition using WordPress and not Poedit (we'll come to that later), you simply see the new version. The translated version is *not* modified.
<PaddyLandau> There is no automatic way to alert the translators.
<PaddyLandau> However, if we use Poedit and .mo files, I need to find out much more about the process before I can answer that.
<PaddyLandau> I know nothing whatsoever about them.
<PaddyLandau> The experience for the translators: Using the built-in WordPress system, they would see their posts just as you and I do.
<PaddyLandau> Would it help to have a look right now at the test system?
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Sure!
<PaddyLandau> OK...
<PaddyLandau> First, go to http://u.yddal.info/ -- that is the test website.
<PaddyLandau> Only the "Home" link has been translated, into four languages (including a pretend language that I set up).
<PaddyLandau> You can see (say) the Chinese link with http://u.yddal.info/zh
<PaddyLandau> You will see a couple of places that have not been translated, and they need to be ironed out.
<PaddyLandau> Now for the Administration side, so that you can see how it works (patrickdickey, I think you already know how).
<PaddyLandau> First, go to http://u.yddal.info/wp-admin
<PaddyLandau> You will receive the first of two security notices.
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey, I forgot to send you your details.
<PaddyLandau> I'll Skype them to you right now.
<patrickdickey> Thanks. I'm also posting our questions to the Q-Translate forum, so if I seem like I've disappeared, that's why.
<PaddyLandau> np
<PaddyLandau> Then you get to the second security login, which you should have received via email. If you don't have it, let me know and I'll get it out to you again.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Okay, I've logged in to the wp-admin. I'm at the wp control panel now.
<PaddyLandau> There are two steps to prevent hacking.
<PaddyLandau> Right, godbyk. Click on Posts on the far left side.
<PaddyLandau> Now, hover your mouse over Testing Languages (that is a post I created)...
<PaddyLandau> ... and click Edit underneath it.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Got it.
<PaddyLandau> The titles come one after another; not terribly convenient, but it's what we have.
<PaddyLandau> Underneath all of that you have the post. Above the post are tabs for English, FranÃ§ais, Nederlands, etc.
<PaddyLandau> Just click on them to see the other languages.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Can the site title and tagline be translated, too?
<PaddyLandau> And amend as you see fit!
<PaddyLandau> On the right you should see "Preview Changes", which lets you preview the page without committing; and there's the Update button, which does commit.
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey and I were discussing the title and tagline.
<PaddyLandau> We have a workaround for that.
<godbyk> 'kay.
<PaddyLandau> Most of it is dead easy, most of the rest is easy, but we'll need a few bits of harder set-up. What I want to avoid is customisations that would break when WordPress is updated.
<PaddyLandau> Major updates come (I believe) annually, with security updates every month or so.
<godbyk> Right.
<PaddyLandau> Feel free to play. The entire site has been backed up, so the worst that can happen is I spend ten minutes restoring it.
<godbyk> Is there a way to export these posts from WordPress to a .pot file?
<godbyk> The .pot files are what we upload to Launchpad so translators can translate things there.
<godbyk> Then we download .po files which contain the translated text.
<godbyk> (The .pot file is basically just a file with a list of strings that need to be translated.
<godbyk> The .po file is the same .pot file but also includes the translations.)
<PaddyLandau> I see. No, I don't think you can export them, but you can copy-and-paste. According to the documentation, however, qTranslate can import .mo files. That is one area where I am still trying to find out how it is done.
<godbyk> Okay, Launchpad can also give us .mo files instead of .po files.
<godbyk> I think the .mo files are the same as the .po files but are a binary format that is more efficient.
<PaddyLandau> Is it important to retain the Launchpad method? For example, for records and to alert the translators?
<PaddyLandau> If it is, I'll have to check out the .mo files.
<patrickdickey> Are the po files simply translations, or do they also have the style guides included?
<godbyk> (I'm just guessing about the format of the .mo files. I know I can't easily read them in a text editor like I can .po files.)
<patrickdickey> I think the .mo files are just machine compiled versions of the .po files.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Well, the benefits of using Launchpad are: translators already hang out there. So they'll be alerted when something is updated and needs to be translated.
<godbyk> They're already familiar with how the Launchpad translation system works.
<godbyk> They get karma points (not sure if this is a big deal or not).
<PaddyLandau> OK. patrickdickey asked if the po files contain style guides?
<godbyk> They can see if the site is fully translated or still needs work.
<godbyk> And so on.
<PaddyLandau> OK, so we want to retain the Launchpad with the .mo files.
<godbyk> I suspect that we'll have a lot fewer translators who want to log in to our site directly to translate the text.
<godbyk> patrickdickey: I'm not sure what you mean by style guides. The .po files contain the original (untranslated) text and the translated text.
<PaddyLandau> But no formatting?
<patrickdickey> Question. Are we talking about just the actual website here, or the manual? Because the manual should stay on launchpad (as far as making and translating it).
<PaddyLandau> The website. Not the manual.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: For the manual, for instance, the translated strings contain LaTeX code just as the English strings do.
<PaddyLandau> Ah. I do not believe that WordPress uses LaTeX.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: So we'd have to export the HTML formatting and they'd maintain that formatting during the translation process.
<godbyk> patrickdickey: This is just about the website.
<PaddyLandau> OK, in the post in the Admin side, you'll see two tabs: Visual and HTML. You can swap between them. So it's OK to use HTML for formatting.
<godbyk> I can show you how the manual translation works in Launchpad and that might help.
<PaddyLandau> OK
<godbyk> The same system would work for the website (assuming we can get the info out of WordPress and into Launchpad.)
<godbyk> If you go here <https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/>, you'll see the front page of the manual's translation site.
<godbyk> You can click on the column headings to sort them.
<godbyk> So clicking on the Status heading a couple times will sort by translation progress.
<godbyk> You can see that the Greek translation is coming along quite well as is the Russian translation.
<PaddyLandau> Yes, I can see now that Launchpad is most useful.
<godbyk> If we click on English (UK), it'll take us to here: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/precise/+pots/ubuntu-manual/en_GB/+translate
<godbyk> This is where the translators do their work.
<godbyk> They see the original English text, and they write their translation in the big text box.
<PaddyLandau> Can we see the Launchpad site for the website translations?
<godbyk> Sure
<godbyk> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/
<PaddyLandau> Yes, I see the HTML there.
<PaddyLandau> It looks good.
<godbyk> Yep.
<godbyk> The vast majority of the formatting is handled outside the translated strings.
<godbyk> But some of the text will contain formatting such as <i>, <b>, etc.
<godbyk> (Things we can separate without breaking the sentence into lots of little fragments.)
<godbyk> And the translators are generally pretty good at handling that sort of thing.
<godbyk> If the qTranslate system doesn't allow us to translate the site title and tagline, we can probably handle that from the template side.
<godbyk> So we can use the same sort of translation setup we have with the current website.
<PaddyLandau> BTW, <i> and <b> are supposed to be replaced with <em> and <strong>.
<patrickdickey> So, what we need to find out is if we create the .mo files for each page on the site, will Q-Translate import them in, and generate the pages for us?
<PaddyLandau> Yes...
<PaddyLandau> All right. We have determined that Launchpad is important to keep.
<godbyk> We'd extract those strings into a .pot file, upload it to launchpad, download the translations, and php will look up the translations each time it displays that page.
<PaddyLandau> Would WordPress (as you have seen it so far) be acceptable if we can import .mo files into WordPress, and replace them when they change?
<godbyk> We also need to see if qTranslate will generate a .pot file for Launchpad.
<patrickdickey> Of all the pages on the site, about the only one that would change is the instructions right?
<godbyk> Otherwise we might have to write some code to do that ourselves.
<PaddyLandau> Caveat: At this stage, it seems as though we would have to copy-and-paste the English (US) into the WordPress site to start off with; and then, when making changes, copy-and-paste the English (US) from WordPress into Launchpad.
<PaddyLandau> I don't know that we can export to .pot, but I'll find out.
<godbyk> We update the instructions fairly regularly (though I'm trying to move a lot of that to the style guide).
<patrickdickey> Actually, I don't think we need to worry about that. If we can import the .mo files from launchpad, then we just do it all there and upload it to the site.
<PaddyLandau> Unfortunately, I suspect now.
<godbyk> We should start updating the contributors page, too.
<PaddyLandau> Unfortunately, I suspect not.
<godbyk> The jobs page gets updated every once in a while.
<godbyk> Some of the other pages might start getting tweaked more frequently if the system were easier to use. :)
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Say I make a change to the jobs page. Would it be possible to simply copy-and-paste those changes to Launchpad? Or does it have to have a .pot file to import?
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: If they can't export to .pot, how do they get the .mo files? I mean, where do they assume the .mo files are coming from?
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: It has to be a .pot file.
<PaddyLandau> How do you currently create a .pot file for the website? Suppose you create a new page, "Ubuntu Widgets" or something?
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: I have no idea. I've never done it. So the translations are sadly out of date for our current site.
<PaddyLandau> Right. That's the first point of attack, then.
<PaddyLandau> I have two suggestions...
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: I think that Adnane (irc: daker) ran a script that generated the .pot file, but I haven't taken the time to dig around for it yet.
<patrickdickey> Here are the questions that I'm going to ask on the Q-Translate forum. Let me know if they need to be changed, or if I need any more.
<patrickdickey> 1.  Is the language code stored somewhere (whichever language Q-Translate is using at the time)? We use this code to determine the language the download is offered in.
<patrickdickey> 2.  When a page is edited, does it get automatically retranslated, or do we have to do anything to have that happen?
<patrickdickey> 3.  As part of our project, we have translators available. Are they able to edit the translated pages at all, or are the pages locked with whatever translation Q-Translate gives us?
<patrickdickey> 3a. If the translators are able to edit the pages, how would they do that?
<patrickdickey> 4.  Are we able to translate the pages offsite, and import them via .mo files into the site?
<godbyk> i don't think that (2) applies since we'll be having human translators doing the work.
<PaddyLandau> 2. I do not think that qTranslate automatically translates anything on the user side. The automatic translations are for the Administration side. Notice the language tabs on the left side in the Administration side.
<PaddyLandau> 3. Not applicable.
<godbyk> For (4), Launchpad can provide both .mo files and .po files.  It requires that we import from a .pot file.
<PaddyLandau> 3a. As I explained earlier. Did you go into the Administration side at all, patrickdickey?
<patrickdickey> Not yet. I'm just about to do that right now.
<PaddyLandau> 4. The answer is yes, it takes .mo files. I think what needs asking is *how* to import .mo files into the system. I need to find that out. I have sample .mo files that Kevin got to me.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: When I click on those languages in the admin panel, it doesn't appear to have any effect.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: That is strange. It changes the language in the administration section. It takes a couple of seconds.
<PaddyLandau> Are you still on the Posts section? It is working for m.e
<PaddyLandau> Are you still on the Posts section? It is working for me.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Ah, I see it now. It just wasn't translated the stuff I happened to be looking at.
<PaddyLandau> Oh... I see some languages have not been fully translated! That's why!
<PaddyLandau> If you click Chinese, you'll see big changes.
<PaddyLandau> I was going to provide some suggestions regarding the .pot files.
<PaddyLandau> I have two suggestions.
<PaddyLandau> (1) Find out how to create a .pot file from some text. If this is easy, there may well be a plug-in. I will search tomorrow.
<PaddyLandau> (2) Change the set-up for Launchpad so that instead of providing the text, it merely provides a flag for each page: "translated" or "not translated". Let translators sign into WordPress to make the changes. (I do not think that this suggestion would be suitable, though.)
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Yeah, I think (1) would be best.
<PaddyLandau> Me too.#
<patrickdickey> Do we have .mo files for some of the pages already in launchpad?
<godbyk> I'll poke around and figure out how to generate the .pot file for our current (ancient) website.
<godbyk> We may need to use the same technique with our WordPress template.
<PaddyLandau> OK. If it is a simple text-to-.pot thing, I would be able to write a piece of PHP to do this. Can you get me a sample .pot file to look at?
<godbyk> patrickdickey: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-website/trunk/+export
<godbyk> Change "PO format" to "MO format" and click Request Download.
<patrickdickey> Quick thing. Preview one of the pages, and look in the footer.
<godbyk> patrickdickey: Launchpad will send you an email in a few minutes with a download link.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: The .pot file format is pretty easy. Look in the precise ubuntu manual repository.. in the po/ subdir is a pot file for the manual.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: If you request the downloads from Launchpad, it'll send along the .pot file with the .po or .mo files you requested.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Ah, I see I do indeed have .pot files.
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey: I found another potentially-useful link: http://many.at/wordpresslocalisation/translating-wordpress/
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey: which page did you want us to preview?
<patrickdickey> It doesn't matter. If you look in the footer, there are flags so the viewer can translate it to their language.
<PaddyLandau> Sorry, patrickdickey, which website?
<patrickdickey> On the test site.
<godbyk> patrickdickey: Is that just for previewing? How can they change the language on the site itself when they're browsing it?
<patrickdickey> That's for them to change the language. it's a widget that's provided by Q-Translate for the viewer.  The language selector.
<PaddyLandau> Yes, that is only for previewing. That is one area that Patrick and I have not yet found -- how to present that to the normal viewer. It's on our "To Do" list.
<patrickdickey> It's actually for the viewer. I just opened a different browser, and the flags are in the footer.
<PaddyLandau> qTranslate does have this option, which I have enabled: "Detect the language of the browser and redirect accordingly." Does anyone have a proxy from a non-English country to test this?
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Fair enough.
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey: Cool!
<PaddyLandau> I wonder why I don't see it when signed in?
<patrickdickey> I'm not sure on that.
<PaddyLandau> I think we need to move it nearer the top of the page, though. Sitting at the bottom is not friendly.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Nice. Our current site tries to detect the language, too, I think.
<PaddyLandau> We need a proxy to test this. Where can we use a proxy from, say, France or China?
<godbyk> You can probably modify a browser setting to request a particular language.
<patrickdickey> I think we need the browser to be set in a separate language.
<godbyk> I don't think they're going to try to detect your language based on IP address.
<godbyk> It's probably using the browser's user-agent string and/or an http header.
<PaddyLandau> Do you know how to do this in Firefox or Chromium?
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey: Please add to your questions to qTranslate: "How do we move the language selector to the top?" And, at the moment, the language selector shows the languages one under the other. We have many languages (32, I think), so that is not useful -- we would need a drop-down menu.
<patrickdickey> Go to Appearance > Widgets, and you can move the language selector around. I chose the footer, because we don't have sidebars available on the pages.
<PaddyLandau> Cool.
<patrickdickey> And, you can change it to dropdown.
<PaddyLandau> Cool again!
<godbyk> That's good to hear
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey: I'm having a look but I don't see where to change the settings to drop-down.
<PaddyLandau> Oh, I've just found it!
<patrickdickey> Ok, so of my questions for their forum, we still need #1 (getting the language code for the download links), and 4 how to import our own .mo files in, and whether that will generate our pages.
<PaddyLandau> Yes. Slight change: qTranslate documentation says it will generate, so not "whether that will generate our pages", but "how do we get qTranslate to use the revised .mo files?"
<PaddyLandau> Action points, because it's already over an hour now.
<PaddyLandau> 1. patrickdickey to send questions to qTranslate.
<PaddyLandau> 2. godbyk to try to find out how to generate .pot files.
<PaddyLandau> 3. Paddy to look at .pot files and see how they are comprised.
<PaddyLandau> I know I've forgotten something...
<godbyk> Hmm..
<godbyk> I think those are the big issues.
<patrickdickey> One thing that I may try is looking at their "translation services settings". We may just have to create our pages, and they'll do the work for us.
<PaddyLandau> 4. Paddy to find out how to import .mo files into qTranslate (patrickdickey's questions may help).
<godbyk> I can write a separate site/code to handle the publishing process for the manuals.
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey: yes, find out. But I think that's how they make their money, so it probably won't be cheap. But check anyway!
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: If necessary. However, it should be easy; we can set up a test once we have the translations going.
<PaddyLandau> So...
<PaddyLandau> 5. patrickdickey to find out about qTranslate's Transation Services.
<PaddyLandau> 6. After the translations are working, Paddy to test easy ways to publish in conjunction with godbyk.
<PaddyLandau> Kevin, you started this because you were unhappy with the current set-up. How do you feel about the proposals? Do you feel that they will save you work and time, or do you have reservations?
<godbyk> I think that if we can get the content from WordPress to Launchpad and back, then using WordPress for the main content of the site will be a good move.
<godbyk> It'll be a lot easier to add and edit pages as needed.
<godbyk> We can also use the posts for press releases and the like.
<godbyk> We'll need to split off the download pages into a separate system and write some code to make it easy for people other than me to upload and publish manuals.
<godbyk> But that's something that needs to be done regardless.
<godbyk> (It's never good if there's only one person in a project who knows how to do something. Bus factor and all that.)
<PaddyLandau> I'm a bit confused about the point about the download pages. Surely the download page is just a drop-down with a language selector to point to the right manual, and likewise for Lulu?
<patrickdickey> I think this is how we import the .mo files http://codex.wordpress.org/Installing_WordPress_in_Your_Language
<PaddyLandau> It's only the upload you need to worry about.
<godbyk> To sum up: Assuming we can get the translations out of and into WordPress, then I think switching to WordPress and a new publishing system is a very good move.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Well, it's a bit more complicated than that.
<godbyk> The download page has some dropdown menus for options.
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey: I believe that applies to localisation of WordPress itself, not to multilingual sites.
<godbyk> And I'm not sure if WordPress allows you to do that sort of thing easily.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Do you have an example of what you mean by "options"?
<godbyk> But you wouldn't want to make someone edit a WordPress page and upload files and all of that manually. Too many steps makes it easy to screw something up.
<patrickdickey> That's the link the Q-Translate FAQ gives for how to manually install your own .mo files. It uses those to generate the translations.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: http://ubuntu-manual.org/downloads
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey: Oh, OK. In that case, I'll have another look at it.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: I understand now. All right, well, it won't be hard to make a small system to link in automatically with WordPress.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: Yeah, I don't think it'll be too difficult.
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey: If you want to play and experiment, email me and I'll send you FTP and database login details.
<godbyk> Right now the process involves me uploading PDFs using scp and hand-editing a few different php files, so it's a pain.
<PaddyLandau> The whole system is fully backed up, so don't worry about mucking it up.
<godbyk> I'd like to just have an upload page that can be used to upload the PDFs and it'll handle everything else behind the scenes.
<PaddyLandau> godbyk: Sure. We can fix that with some scripts and PHP.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: That's what I'm thinking.
<PaddyLandau> Cool.
<PaddyLandau> Any more questions or comments?
<patrickdickey> I think in the end (based on my experience with my site), you'll upload the files to the server that hosts the site, and just have to fix the links.
<godbyk> PaddyLandau: I think that about covers everything.
<PaddyLandau> patrickdickey: godbyk wants to automate the process from FTP through to updating the pages, so that it avoids the translators themselves. It can be done fairly easily, I believe.
<PaddyLandau> OK. Shall we call an end to the meeting? I have to get my kids to bed and then me.
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Jul 28 19:21:15 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-07-28-17.59.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2012/ubuntu-manual.2012-07-28-17.59.html
<godbyk> Thanks for all your help, guys. I really appreciate it!
<PaddyLandau> Thank you. Goodbye. Patrick, email me if you want FTP and database login details.
<patrickdickey> I'm going to pick a page (if you have a preference let me know) and try uploading the code directly from our test site to it. Just to see what breaks and what doesn't.
<patrickdickey> I'll do that. I should be around for about the next 18 hours or so.
<godbyk> I'll generally be around, though I'm going to be afk for a short while first.
