#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-20
<charlie-tca> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2011-June/000859.html
<charlie-tca> TOPIC - Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> Anything else to be discussed today?
<charlie-tca> I will get this written up and out via email. The wiki will not be updated until they let me login again
<charlie-tca> Thanks, everyone, for your participation!
<GridCube> :D
<charlie-tca> It is great to have people getting involved in this great project.
<charlie-tca> and now, 
<charlie-tca> Enjoy your day today! 
<GridCube> :) lately lots of new installers have ended up on the channel
<charlie-tca> ENDMEETING
<GridCube> :D
<charlie-tca> yes, they have. It is a good thing to see many new people coming to Xubuntu.
<micahg> mr_pouit: I'll try to get libnotify1 off the CD by alpha2
<charlie-tca> Oh, and for the people that don' t already know, to subscribe to the xubuntu-devel mailing list, go to
<charlie-tca> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
<charlie-tca> and sign up
<charlie-tca> That's our official ML to discuss what we do with Xubuntu
<mr_pouit> micahg: feel free to file removal requests for plugins that are not really maintained upstream, and not in debian
<micahg> mr_pouit: only 4 rdepends left after your round of syncs
<micahg> mr_pouit: k, already filed for thunar-thumbnailers
<micahg> mr_pouit: probably won't get to much xubuntu stuff until wed, I have a round of Mozilla updates
<GridCube> oh, ochosi, this is just me being silly, but what if xubuntu came whit Screenlets preinstalled whit some weather or stuff like that preconfigured by locale?
<GridCube> just saying
<GridCube> gotta go
<micahg> charlie-tca: ah, forgot to mention that thunderbird 3.1.11 is coming this week
<GridCube> :D
<mr_pouit> heh, firefox 5.0
<mr_pouit> anyway, it's 1 am here, so good night ;>
<micahg> mr_pouit: yeah, plus the firefox/xulrunner updates for lucid/maverick and thunderbird for all stable releases
<xrdodrx> FF 5.0 is running with no problems here
<xrdodrx> I had to set extensions.checkCompatibility.5.0 to false to get some of my addons to work, but that's not an ubuntu bug
<micahg> xrdodrx: as long as they're not from the archive (and none should be in natty), yes
<charlie-tca> Thanks, mr_pouit 
<charlie-tca> micahg: let us know when it hits, we will get testers 
<micahg> charlie-tca: it's in the mozilla-security PPA
<micahg> *ubuntu-mozilla-security
<charlie-tca> okay. We will try to grab it
<micahg> the minor  bumps I usually don't do too much fanfare about, but testers always welcome
<charlie-tca> If we got people willing, we can use them.
<charlie-tca> You want me to include thunderbird in today's minutes?
<micahg> charlie-tca: nah, I'd rather have the focus on Firefox 5, you can add a note that planned release is June 21
<charlie-tca> okay, I will do that
<micahg> I'll give more notice for the Lucid/Maverick transitions, this was a mess since this was the first time with the new schedule and upstream is still tweaking processes
<ochosi> charlie-tca: do you have time to talk to me about a few things in greybird?
<charlie-tca> sure
<charlie-tca> ochosi: yu
<charlie-tca> well, that is a yes, actually
<ochosi> k :)
<ochosi> i changed the highlight color again now
<ochosi> it's a bit more like it was
<ochosi> but the blue bg is brighter than before
<ochosi> with white font on it
<ochosi> i think it's more readable than before
<ochosi> in treeviews and lists
<charlie-tca> That is a hard thing to make work
<ochosi> (even though i liked the last thing we had)
<ochosi> the progressbars should be fine now
<charlie-tca> It takes so little to make it good or bad. 
<ochosi> i made a new scrollbar-style that i really really like
<charlie-tca> okay, I will pull it and take a look. 
<ochosi> i'm not sure you will, but please give it a few days or ideally a week of testing
<ochosi> i mean i'm not sure you will like it
<charlie-tca> I can do that. 
<ochosi> knome didn't like it at first sight/try, but i think he at least changed his mind a bit
<charlie-tca> I have three new trackballs/mice on the way, that I will also be testing for my own use.
<ochosi> kewl
<charlie-tca> I got a fortune tied up in mice and keyboards here, trying to find what works the best for me
<ochosi> right, that sounds like a good time for testing scrollbars :)
<ochosi> currently the checkboxes and radioboxes don't really have a final look
<ochosi> haven't gotten around to those yet
<ochosi> charlie-tca: so that's that. ping me when you have an opinion
<ochosi> we can also talk earlier then in a week ;)
<ochosi> (but i don't want to throw the new design away earler than that)
<charlie-tca> no problem. I will try it for a week, unless it really kills me
<ochosi> :)
<charlie-tca> I downloaded it, just now
<ochosi> k
<charlie-tca> panels are darker?
<charlie-tca> Unless I did something wrong, I really like the scrollbar
<ochosi> the panel didn't change since we last discussed it
<charlie-tca> but it still has arrows
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> it shouldn't
<ochosi> then something went wrong i guess?
<ochosi> screenshot?
<charlie-tca> hm, what did I get
<charlie-tca> http://imagebin.org/159090
<charlie-tca> Did I grab the wrong file again? I took the .zip under downloads
<charlie-tca> hm, took it a minute to change, for some reason. arrows are gone
<ochosi> that is something very odd there
<ochosi> maybe you have to restart ff
<charlie-tca> I can't scroll firefox horizontally now
<ochosi> some apps need a restart after a theme-change
<charlie-tca> It changed in claws-mail and terminal and liferea too 
<charlie-tca> restarting firefox
<ochosi> it should look different than in your screenshot
<charlie-tca> It lost the arrows
<ochosi> and definitely without arrows (as you suggested)
<ochosi> i have to say that i like it without arrows now
<ochosi> wasn't sure about it before
<ochosi> but testing it a few days kinda convinced me
<charlie-tca> I like it without the arrows
<charlie-tca> It is different then the screenshot, but I like it
<ochosi> ok nice
<charlie-tca> It is easier for me to use, at least
<ochosi> that sounds promising i have to say
<ochosi> because that was/is a big concern for me
<ochosi> i really don't want to decrease usability
<charlie-tca> Okay, I will run this one for a week and see what happens
<ochosi> ok cool
<ochosi> actually i should go to bed now
<ochosi> it's already 2am
<ochosi> (here)
<charlie-tca> It is not glaring white at me, and I can use it
<ochosi> yeah, the glaring white got reduced/dealt with
<charlie-tca> good night. Get some rest. and thank you!
<ochosi> thanks, you too!
<micahg> charlie-tca: wiki appears to be fixed
<astraljava> Ooh, that's great news!
<pleia2> so there is an outstanding bug for xubuntu.org about translations, I'm not sure how we want to handle it
<pleia2> I like GridCube's FAQ proposal though, if someone wants to write a FAQ we can certainly put it on the site
<charlie-tca> pleia2: what bug number?
<pleia2> #797600
<charlie-tca> Oh, that one
<charlie-tca> I don' t think we can do anything with it until we get the website rebuilt
<charlie-tca> If he wants it now, he will have to do it himself.
<pleia2> oh sure, I figured the FAQ proposal would have to wait until we have a new site too
<charlie-tca> Oh, I hadn't thought that far yet, but that does make sense, huh?
<charlie-tca> hm, they may have fixed something, but apparently logging in after you change from light theme is still not allowed
<charlie-tca> I get an error 500 instead of 502 and 503 now
<pleia2> the wiki is being horrible in general
<pleia2> yay, .net and .com work again \o/
<charlie-tca> Nice work on that!
<charlie-tca> I am supposing that the wiki should get fixed tomorrow or tuesday. It is hard to get things done over the weekend
 * charlie-tca is still really, really, really upset with the wiki, though
<charlie-tca> Tired now, going to bed again
<pleia2> charlie-tca: re: wiki, yeah, one of the sysadmins woke up a few hours ago and has been trying some things, I'm very much hoping for a fix soon too
<astraljava> Aww crap, the meeting was yesterday now?! Damnit, I need to pay more attention.
<charlie-tca> and a very good meeting it was, too :)
<charlie-tca> Thanks, pleia2 
<astraljava> charlie-tca: That's good. Sorry for bailing out.
<charlie-tca> no problem; we all miss one now and again
 * pleia2 had all her computers unplugged and all over her living room during it
<pleia2> today was spring cleaning day :)
<astraljava> Haha. :)
<astraljava> Btw. I figured out the reason for my network outages/problems.
<astraljava> I will be moving soon, so I synced a whole lot of Spotify playlists for offline use, in case of not being networked for a while in the new town.
<astraljava> The university network has daily quotas.
<astraljava> It cuts off at 3GB. :D
<pleia2> oops :)
<astraljava> After that it's closer to 56k modem speeds. :D
<astraljava> And since I use heavily different kinds of network-related apps, I was maxed-out all the time. :)
<pleia2> well, I'm glad the solution was that easy
<astraljava> Yeah. I was just worried, as the day I started syncing, they had made upgrades to the core network. For a while was convinced they had f***ed up something.
<Unit193> Is this one fine to do the FF5 testing? http://ppa.launchpad.net/mozillateam/firefox-next/ubuntu natty main (I would guess not...)
<micahg> Unit193: not official testing, unofficially, yes
<micahg> Unit193: the idea is to test the binaries we'll release on tuesday of which the ones in that PPA are not
<xrdodrx> micahg, Seems really solid to me, believe me, I've tried to make it crash :P
<Unit193> micahg: Thanks. I guess I can downgrade...
<micahg> xrdodrx: good to hear, I believe that to be the case as well, but other use cases are always welcome
<micahg> Unit193: downgrade?
<Unit193> s/downgrade/switch ppas/
<micahg> Unit193: ok, be forewarned that using the ubuntu mozilla security PPA will fail on anything language pack related
<micahg> unless you've manually installed the language pack
<Unit193> micahg: Yep, I'm goind with proposed
<micahg> Unit193: k, as long as you're comfortable with all the other untested updates :)
<Unit193> I, er, already enabled it... (Just randomly noticed that I was running FF%)
<micahg> heh, so -proposed is higher than firefox-next ATM actually :)
<Unit193> Almost offtopic, when they were talking about a FAQ, this is the one I thought of (Not what you're looking for) https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/FAQ
<GridCube> Unit193, thats pretty much what i meant :D but more xubuntu related and whit simplier/silly tasks you and me might do instinctively but someone comming from other OS might find rather new, like installing restricted extras
<Unit193> GridCube: That's the Lubuntu IRC FAQs, close, but not quite what you're looking todo. Make sure to link to the other parts of the Ubuntu wiki?
<GridCube> what?
<mr_pouit> bah, brainstorm.ubuntu.com sucks
<mr_pouit> I keep reporting xubuntu related ideas as implemented, and a few months later, they are still marked as new
<plantoschka> hi :)
<plantoschka> ok greybird-git is in my vm running oneiric
<plantoschka> like the darker panel
<ochosi> plantoschka: feel free to ping me for greybird-feedback (that's what i meant with directing feedback directly to me yesterday)
<plantoschka> will do that :) 
<ochosi> ty
<plantoschka> is the chromium/chrome theme also done by you?
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> at least the one that is included
<plantoschka> https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/djhdibfheaidnhfnhhnmdngcmjpicpkn
<ochosi> there is also an addon-theme (obviously you don't need that if you use greybird), that was done by someone else (can't remember who now)
<ochosi> yeah, that was done by someone else
<plantoschka> when i install chromium it uses the default greybird theme. when i installed chrome it didn't
<ochosi> oh ok
<ochosi> i only tested it with chromium tbh
<plantoschka> with the addon from the chromestore it works fine
<ochosi> sry, don't know enough about the differences between chrome and chromium to be of help
<plantoschka> do you plan to make a chrome extension that brings the default greybird scrollbars into chrome/ium ? :-)
<plantoschka> btw i like the new scrollbars without arrows
<ochosi> thx
<ochosi> hm, that#s hard i guess
<ochosi> not sure i'll have time to spend on that
<ochosi> there are a lot of things to be done for the next release
<ochosi> (e.g. a decent gtk3 implementation of the theme)
<ochosi> if you could do that feel free to step up
<ochosi> i mean the chrome-theme
<plantoschka> well chrome is not that important, there are several scrollbars that fit good
<plantoschka> and like i said definitely like the darker panel
<plantoschka> gtk3 theme looks better than the default fallback but i'm sure you make that even better :-D
<plantoschka> <plantoschka> when i install chromium it uses the default greybird theme. when i installed chrome it didn't
<plantoschka> forget this. just installed a fresh chrome in VM and it uses greybird skin
<ochosi> ok :)
<ochosi> good to know
<plantoschka> http://imagebin.org/159152
<plantoschka> default scrollbar is really ugly ;)
<ochosi> there's not much  you can do about that unfortunately
<ochosi> at least not without designing a specific chrome/ium theme
<plantoschka> yeah i know.. ;) just use firefox :-D
<plantoschka> or a scrollbar extensions for chrome ;)
<ochosi> or use midori
<plantoschka> midori is great too
<plantoschka> will bluebird also get gtk3?
<ochosi> depends on my free time/energy
<plantoschka> :)
<plantoschka> you also work on gmusicbrowser?
<charlie-tca> w00t!
<charlie-tca> wiki is working again
<plantoschka> great
<ochosi> plantoschka: yes
<davmor2> morning charlie-tca 
<plantoschka> <-subscribed to mailing list :-D
<charlie-tca> Hello davmor2 
<charlie-tca> Meeting minutes are poted to the wiki.
<davmor2> charlie-tca: wow you can play golf on the wiki?
<charlie-tca> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
 * astraljava waves at the channel
<astraljava> How're our images today doing?
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> davmor2: lol; updated last week!
<charlie-tca> Images today should be usable, I have not had time to install yet
<davmor2> charlie-tca: :D  couldn't resist sorry :D
<charlie-tca> I could see that :)
<astraljava> Alright cool, will check this evening.
<mr_pouit> I guess you'll have a black screen instead of lightdm starting ;>
<charlie-tca> on the live environment only, right?
<charlie-tca> Or is that going to affect all installs now?
<mr_pouit> I don't know, on the live environment only I think
<charlie-tca> Works for now, then
<mr_pouit> because I'm afraid lightdm will try to autologin into the gnome session, which doesn't exist :}
<charlie-tca> Is that what is happening? It has been doing that since Ubuntu switched to lightdm
<mr_pouit> I think that is what happening, I tried quickly in a vm, and it did that
<charlie-tca> yup. Installs have been working from the cd menu only. We can't get a live desktop
<cody-somerville> Hey Folks. How are things?
<charlie-tca> Could be worse. We no longer have a live desktop because lightdm points only to gnome
<cody-somerville> Brilliant.
<cody-somerville> Has that been escalated?
<charlie-tca> but the installs work; we get a xfce session only, since xubuntu is no longer a valid session
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit has been trying to get something done
<cody-somerville> Robert should be receptive to helping fix that ASAP. I'll shoot off an e-mail to him to remind him.
<charlie-tca> and, with the wiki.ubuntu.com update, that is pretty much broken now
<cody-somerville> wiki.ubuntu.com is broken?
<charlie-tca> lol, at least it is getting faster
<charlie-tca> can't login for a lot of people
<cody-somerville> faster is good :)
<cody-somerville> ah
<cody-somerville> yea, I can't login either
<charlie-tca> which kind of makes updating difficult
<cody-somerville> Do you know if there is an RT ticket open for that?
<charlie-tca> I opened one 
<charlie-tca> but then it worked
<charlie-tca> I don' t know if it is still open now
<charlie-tca> rt.ubuntu.com #17306
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, I think you just have to try twice and it'll work
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> maybe
<charlie-tca> You got something there
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, ah, now its timing out on me
<charlie-tca> My updates did not give me an error after I got logged in this morning, so there is still hope
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, I've escalated this to the vanguard.
<charlie-tca> It's kind of in and out again
<charlie-tca> I seem to be in again
<Unit193> I'm logged in as well...
<charlie-tca> I did send a few messages in over the weekend, but that didn't seem to help at all
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, Whats the bug # re: lightdm issue? I'll escalate that too.
<pleia2> same, I'm still having trouble hitting preview when I make edits
<cody-somerville> pleia2, I'll ask if thats a known issue.
<pleia2> cody-somerville: I've been in the sysadmin channel all weekend, they keep doing tweaks to make it better, not much luck so far
<cody-somerville> ah. :(
<pleia2> but at least the wiki loads, which is an improvement over yesterday morning
<charlie-tca> true
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville: http://pad.lv/799238
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 799238 in casper (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu amd64 20110618 xserver abort" [Medium,Triaged]
<charlie-tca> and
<charlie-tca> http://pad.lv/795575
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 795575 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "xubuntu-session unavailable for Oneiric" [High,Triaged]
<charlie-tca> and I got one more, if I can find it
<charlie-tca> Bug 799754
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 799754 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "Please register lightdm.conf in the alternatives system" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/799754
<charlie-tca> That's the ones I know of
<charlie-tca> We just keep trying... 
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville: I am adding these three to the release team tracker, too, this week
<charlie-tca> oh, by the way, we are now included in the release team meetings
<cody-somerville> \o/
<charlie-tca> We really are making a few gains, huh?
<cody-somerville> Yes, sir.
<micahg> charlie-tca: I have a xubuntu session just fine on my oneiric laptop, so it's not lightdm
<charlie-tca> micahg: it is lightdm on new installations
<charlie-tca> upgrades and adding lightdm works, but a new install will not because of the changes made 
<charlie-tca> Our images were fine until Ubuntu made the changes and added lightdm to theirs. 
<charlie-tca> We have not been able to get a live desktop since then
<micahg> well, I don't think the fault is lightdm itself, but rather the live system and the way it uses the display manager
<GridCube> charlie-tca, want me to do some testings today?
<charlie-tca> sure
<charlie-tca> Everybody likes the idea of the FAQ page, so let's get the discussion about what fits going.
<GridCube> :) 
<GridCube> yesterday Unit193 show me this page https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/FAQ
<GridCube> i think it could be something like a guide
<GridCube> i think it will be better if we focus on things people that comes from other OSs might care to have working pretty fast, thats why i said "how to listen music?" as my primary example
<charlie-tca> That's what your message to the Mailing list should say, then. also any other topics you think would be good. Want me to start it, and you can then reply?
<GridCube> oh i could send the mail i think
<GridCube> will topic it "Top 10 FAQ for the Xubuntu site"
<charlie-tca> great!
<charlie-tca> That fits perfect
<Unit193> I was pointing that out as it's another FAQ (I didn't think he was planning on that as it's run by the IRC support people) 
<charlie-tca> How to turn sound on? How to listen to music? How to install video drivers?
<GridCube> those are pretty great
<GridCube> maybe "how to enable compiz" that is asked a lot
<charlie-tca> yes!
<Unit193> How to play DVDs?
<charlie-tca> good one
<charlie-tca> dvd/music the same?
<ochosi> idea: maybe combine them with appropriate icons on the website, so that people can easily spot what they're looking for (instead of just a long list of text)
<charlie-tca> and we let it run about a month, to see what the most asked stuff is in #xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> We just need someone to keep on eye on the channel and send the stuff to the ML
<charlie-tca> A really good reason for people to visit the website: Rotating FAQ's
<Unit193> This is also going to be keeping the english ones up too I would assume
<GridCube> oh, im forgeting about the translation thing
<charlie-tca> which english ones?
<GridCube> adding that up to the mail
<charlie-tca> that's correct, I think. 
<charlie-tca> Since we have none now, we would be maintaining them in English and ???
<GridCube> spaÃ±ish?
<GridCube> sended
<GridCube> :D
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<GridCube> charlie-tca, i will do the "alternate, disk encryption" test now
<GridCube> do you want me to do anything else?
<charlie-tca> any you can do will be great
<GridCube> oh, why does it says my full name on the ML? XD 
<GridCube> :P not that it really bothers me
<charlie-tca> Should be the name you used for the subscription
<GridCube> oh i think it takes the name i use on gmail
<charlie-tca> maybe
<GridCube> what kind of test is the one for firefox?
<micahg> GridCube: just use it and see if it breaks
<GridCube> okay
<micahg> the more extreme your daily use is, the better the test :)
 * GridCube will take his tests to THE EXTREME
<Unit193> This seems to be the only time where the more tabs you have, the better it is :P
<GridCube> i wonder what would happen if i open 100 youtube videos at the same time
<Unit193> GridCube: I have had 130+ tabs open on more than one occasion (About 160 has been my max...)
<GridCube> :P when i read my webcomics on the mornign i autoopen 40+ pages at once
<GridCube> XD
<GridCube> charlie-tca, the installation freezed
<charlie-tca> probably a kernel panic. Do the caps-lock and num-lock buttons make the lights turn on/off?
<charlie-tca> Is that a test or your used installation?
<GridCube> charlie-tca, thats for me?
<charlie-tca> yeah, but I answered you already in #xubuntu
<GridCube> ok in the other  topic,  the installation of the virtualmachine died at "downloading 2 o f 6"
<charlie-tca> That's a FAIL
<charlie-tca> Seems to be a problem with the kernel today, maybe tomorrow it will all be there
<GridCube> ok
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-21
<charlie-tca> I didn't know about it earlier today
<GridCube> it says its using a kernel  number 3.0... something is this correct?
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> It's the newest kernel, probably 3.0.1 or -1, and trying to upgrade pieces of it to 2
<micahg> 3.0-1.2
<charlie-tca> That's the one!
<charlie-tca> Thanks, micahg 
<knome> charlie-tca, dvd/video file playing in parole is either "open disc" or "open file" :P
<knome> charlie-tca, media -> open for files, media -> dvd -> (probably) "from disc"
<knome> (don't have dvd in the drive now, so can't check, and i need to sleep)
<knome> so, good night
<knome> catch you later
<charlie-tca> http://pad.lv.800211
<charlie-tca> slideshow is now for Edubuntu
<charlie-tca> http://pad.lv/800211
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 800211 in xubuntu-artwork (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu desktop installation shows edubuntu slideshow" [Undecided,New]
<charlie-tca> OMG! We have a Xubuntu session today on the fresh installs
<charlie-tca> cody-somerville: thank you for helping get that done!
<cody-somerville> lol. not sure how much credit I can take for that :P all I did was make a little bit of noise
<charlie-tca> sometimes that is all it takes is making noise in the right places
<mr_pouit> no, nothing has been done in lightdm
<charlie-tca> You fixed it?
<charlie-tca> Thank you, mr_pouit. I am glad we have a session again!
<charlie-tca> now to get a live desktop working... 
<mr_pouit> yeah, that one was a fix in xubuntu-default-settings (that's the only recent change I made, so I suppose it's the culprit)
<mr_pouit> for the live session, yeah, it depends on lightdm :p
<charlie-tca> I'm on a roll for strange requests today. The next bug report will be for the "download updates while installing" on the dekstop cd being checked by default
<mr_pouit> I've pinged cjwatson about the slideshow issue
<micahg> charlie-tca: that's a feature :)
<charlie-tca> no, the technical board disapproved it
<mr_pouit> ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu is in the seeds, yet -edubuntu is selected, which is a bit weird
<charlie-tca> very
<mr_pouit> grmpf
<mr_pouit> ubiquity-slideshow-xubuntu is in the seeds, yet -edubuntu is selected, which is a bit weird
<mr_pouit> (better)
<micahg> charlie-tca: I thought that was for tracking...
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: shouldn't the slideshow default to Ubuntu unless specifically called?
<micahg> download updates is just installing the latest from -updates/-security during install
<charlie-tca> micahg: it was early last cycle that the update thing was discussed
<mr_pouit> charlie-tca: afaik, it won't if there's another slideshow variant installed
<charlie-tca> micahg: the reason it was turned down is that not all countries/individuals have the bandwidth for that
<charlie-tca> We could cost people a LOT of MONEY by using up bandwidth allotments for the mont
<charlie-tca> s/mont/month
<micahg> ah, ok
 * micahg is spoiled w/a 20Mbit connection
<GridCube> good morning
<charlie-tca> yeah, even in america now, a lot of people have caps
<charlie-tca> GridCube: good morning
<GridCube> XD you are disscusing headware?
<charlie-tca> no, download ability during a monthj
<GridCube> oh XD 
<GridCube> Here, in argentina, i've never heard of download caps, except for cellphone based conections
<charlie-tca> http://pad.lv/800261
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 800261 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubquity installer automatically checks "Download updates" " [Undecided,New]
<charlie-tca> We have caps in the United States now, depending on the provider
<charlie-tca> some as low as 50GB monthly
<charlie-tca> that bug in ubiquity is reported to #ubuntu-installer, cjwatson is aware
<charlie-tca> GridCube: images are working today, including xubuntu session if selected.
<charlie-tca> However, live desktop is still broken
<GridCube> ok :) then gonna do the alternate test
<charlie-tca> GridCube: do not try to login without selecting a session
<GridCube> ok
<charlie-tca> It will cause a bad failure, and you have to restart to login again
<GridCube> (on a complete unrelated topic, related to yesterdays freaking incident, today i bought a new keyboard because my old one was behaving really weird, could that make the system to behave that badly?)
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> That can make it not respond, since it doesn't know the keyboard is doing anything
<GridCube> but i still do not understand how i lost posession of all my folders, it was like all the sudden i was loged as a different user, tho whoami said i wasnt
<charlie-tca> I don't know. I do know a bad keyboard can make strange things happen
<GridCube> ok
<GridCube> thanks
 * GridCube wonders if the fact that a mercury thermometer breaking over the old keyboard could have caused the problems to come... XD
<Exio> GridCube: o.O
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: thanks for that slideshow help!
<mr_pouit> :)
<charlie-tca> we are gaining today, even if it is not great leaps
<charlie-tca> GridCube: lofl :)
<GridCube> question: will x/ubuntu ever use wayland?
<charlie-tca> I would guess it will eventually
<GridCube> mmm okay, i was just reading about it and sound interesting, though new
<Unit193> If GridCube is doing alt, should I do Live? I do not like the sound of wayland
<GridCube> i don't understand why it downloads so much things, if i just downloaded the image :/
<charlie-tca> It has to download the updates that have been added since the image was built. They are done around midnight UTC
<charlie-tca> so, that is about 17 hours old already
<GridCube> mmkay
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, micahg : my bug tracking chart for Oneiric Ocelot
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Bugs/OneiricOcelot
<charlie-tca> hm, updates to the wiki.ubuntu.com without getting error pages 
<charlie-tca> Kind of strange now
<astraljava> Everything but live, eh? Okay I can give alternate i386 a go then.
<charlie-tca> please do
<charlie-tca> desktop images install from the menu, too
<charlie-tca> just can not have a live session yet
<astraljava> Sure. Was there a new way of installing that on the usb stick nowadays? I forget, but recall reading something about that.
<astraljava> Oh and are we using that spreadsheet thingie for testing?
<astraljava> Well, rather keeping a score on testing?
<charlie-tca> yeah, you can write the image to usb using dd
<charlie-tca> astraljava: The Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter Issue #221 for the week of June 14 - 20, 2011 is out! get it from http://ur1.ca/4hp4m !xubuntu !ubuntu
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> To write the images to USB drives, you can use
<charlie-tca> # dd if=debian-testing-i386-netinst.iso of=/dev/sdX
<charlie-tca> testing results at 
<charlie-tca> https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AucFSttyWCevdGZSenZqRS04eE9LYnBwSWtUM0NJRXc&authkey=CP282scF&hl=en_US#gid=0
<charlie-tca> or use http://2tu.us/3dmh
<astraljava> Oh dear gawd.
<astraljava> /dev/scb != /dev/sdb
<charlie-tca> um, no
<charlie-tca> sure doesn't, especially if you happen to have scb also
<astraljava> Fortunately didn't. :D
<charlie-tca> or sdb, depending on which one you overwrote :(
<astraljava> sdb was what I wanted, but luckily I have only one hard drive and no other devices other than the DVD writer. :)
<charlie-tca> I could have erased about 350gb with that, myself
<astraljava> About the same, as I just backed up my whole work machine cavalcade. :D
<astraljava> Okay, seemed to work with the correct device node. :D
 * micahg doesn't think regular users should be using dd for imaging...
<Unit193> But Mac has no other built in way to put them on USB! ;)
<charlie-tca> Using oneiric, they are not regular users
<charlie-tca> micahg: did you get the bug list for oneiric? I don't put syncs and merges and such in it, just high or critical bugs
<charlie-tca> normally. THere will be some medium bugs too
<micahg> charlie-tca: yeah, I got a copy, no need to track syncs/merges, we have the other wiki page for that
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> It just gives us a quick reference when looking for bugs
<charlie-tca> I tried it in natty, but I don't think I kept up with it. I usually do it on my own computer
<charlie-tca> I have used that same tracker for bugs since karmic, though
<charlie-tca> Okay, better go get the baby now.
<astraljava> grrr
<astraljava> Doesn't get to the desktop.
<astraljava> Must be something wrong with this hardware.
<astraljava> Gotta read up on lightdm.
<knome> http://demo.knome.fi/imgcapt/gmb/ - a better demo on imgcapt
<GridCube> :( i won't be able to end the tests today
<GridCube> it takes too long and other people has to use this computer
<charlie-tca> astraljava: the login after entering name depends on selecting the xubuntu session
<charlie-tca> no session selected = no destko
<charlie-tca> no session selected = no desktop
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-22
<Unit193> micahg: I'm really not sure if it counts, but I just crashed FF using downloadhelper
<micahg> Unit193: cool, can you report the crash to mozilla
<micahg> Unit193: I actually had Firefox 5 pushed out already, but thanks
<micahg> we can still get stuff fixed though
<micahg> Firefox 6 is 8 weeks away :)
<Unit193> Looks like I'm a bit behind...
<Unit193> Sorry about that :P
<micahg> Unit193: no problem, there were only a few who answered my call for testing
<micahg> Unit193: like I said, we can still get stuff fixed
<micahg> there are still plenty of bugs in Firefox :) I just wanted to catch regressions
<Unit193> micahg: Once I download this, I'll see if I can do it again
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Damnit! I never realized that! However, the login screen should give some pointers for that, I think. It isn't obvious as it is, hell, it isn't intuitive in the least bit at the moment.
<astraljava> charlie-tca: There's just my name (as full name for my user), then Other...
<astraljava> The session selection comes only after clicking on the Other...
<astraljava> But yeah, thanks for the pointer!
<charlie-tca> That's the kind of things we "testers" have to be looking for. How else do we if things are usable broken or unusable broken?
<charlie-tca> astraljava: ^  ^  
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: will the umask change affect us at all?
<charlie-tca> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/umask-to-0002
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Yep. :)
<charlie-tca>  we got the xubuntu slideshow back
<mr_pouit> yes, it will affect all variants
<charlie-tca> Maybe not the right question. Will it create any additional work for us or can we just let it happen?
<mr_pouit> no, just let it happen
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> That's the answer I hoped for
<ochosi> mr_pouit: thanks for subscribing me to the artwork-bugs
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i think i'd rather drop the dropbox icons than fix them in elementaryXubuntu, i don't even wanna start supporting 3rd party stuff, it's a never ending story...
<charlie-tca> ochosi: I see one or two pixels to the right of the scrollbar in most windows that is not usable. If I click within that space, nothing happens. 
<charlie-tca> Also, sometimes in firefox, the scrollbars disappear
<charlie-tca> (oneiric with latest greybird from git
<ochosi> charlie-tca: hm, can't confirm the firefox issue in natty, maybe an oneiric specific problem?
<charlie-tca> could be
<ochosi> think with the scrollbar it's only 1px border
<charlie-tca> might not even be firefox, of course. Maybe something with the latest Xorg or who knows yet
<ochosi> not sure it's worth the sacrifice of general looks for firefox's fullscreen behavior...
<ochosi> mhm
<charlie-tca> Never used fullscreen
<ochosi> sry, meant maximized
<ochosi> but in fact i rarely use maximized either ;)
<charlie-tca> me too
<charlie-tca> I run almost everything in smaller windows, since I keep dasher on the right, and it needs some space without being on top of applications
<charlie-tca> The white space right of scrollbar is okay if we can't change it. 
<charlie-tca> The firefox thing, I don't know yet. I haven't pinned it down far enough yet
<charlie-tca> Just thought I would give you a heads up on it
<ochosi> charlie-tca: k, thanks!
<charlie-tca> no problem, I hope I didn't upset you with it. I just intended to let you know, and see if you knew about it yet
<ochosi> hehe, no, no problem
<ochosi> i'm not *that* sensitive ;)
<ochosi> just wanted to prevent people from screaming: "what did you do with the old theme?!" ;)
<GridCube> what did you do to it?
<GridCube> :P
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> you don't want to know ;)
<ochosi> in fact i just made a new iteration of it, since you're asking: http://imagebin.org/159501
<GridCube> :P
<ochosi> charlie-tca: i think this is by far the best scrollbar we had so far ^
<GridCube> :) thats nice, im more fond of dark themes tho
<ochosi> yeah, maybe we'll do a dark theme one day
<ochosi> i always thought of tweaking/modernizing NOX
<GridCube> thats why i use albatross :D
<ochosi> yeah, i might fix a few things there for the upcoming release
<ochosi> but it's getting increasingly difficult to manage everything
<ochosi> 3 themes (albatross, bluebird, greybird) and all would need some attention
<GridCube> It is understable
<ochosi> especially gtk3 variants...
<GridCube> oh, that sounds messy
<ochosi> well i could use some help with all of that
<ochosi> but seems i'll be alone for another cycle :)
<GridCube> :( i don't know any programing at all
<ochosi> it's not really so much programming
<ochosi> but yes, you should no a few things about gtk and about the engines you're using
<ochosi> it's mostly about being creative
<GridCube> :P maybe in a few months i will be able to do that kind of things, maybe if i start doing simple things now?
<ochosi> you can always start out easy by modifying existing themes
<GridCube> :P
<GridCube> im afraid of broking things
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> it's not really that dangerous
<GridCube> breaking? men i need to know that word
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> gotta go, catch you later
<GridCube> :=
<GridCube> :)
<charlie-tca> GridCube: images are working today, except live desktop
<charlie-tca> hoping the scrollbar doesn't go blending into the theme completely again
<GridCube> :) im doing the alternate test since like an hour ago, it really takes  lot of time, this time i disconected the internet from the vbox, else it would be like 5 hours installing like yesterdays
<GridCube> will do the updates once the system is installed, i don't understand why this isn't always the case
<charlie-tca> You must be on that slow connection again
<charlie-tca> The updates are downloading automatically by mistake, which is why as soon as the install is done, you get the update-manager icon on the login
<charlie-tca> The only way to keep them from downloading during the installation (and slowing it down) is by disconnecting the internet completely
<GridCube> thats what i did
<GridCube> and im toping at 320kBs so i don't think is my conection, but it might be
<charlie-tca> Mine are installing in about 45 minutes, with my slow connection
<GridCube> mmm then it migh be something else
<charlie-tca> yeah, maybe something is stealing bandwidth. I get between 87 and 150kbs here
<charlie-tca> You should be able to do the install in 45 minutes, max, at that high speed
<GridCube> :) installed, that problem whit thunar and first opens remain (today i recived a mail from that bug report saying it was fixed on a new version of thunar)
<charlie-tca> yes, but we don't get the fixes immediately. It should happen in the next week, though
<GridCube> yep i figured that much
<charlie-tca> We might have the thunar fix tomorrow, it was synced today.
<GridCube> question, setting a wallpaper from firefox does actually work?
<GridCube> :) ok tests passed
<GridCube> boot, reboot, update, reboot, language updates, reboot, internets, reboot
<GridCube> anything else to be tested?
<charlie-tca> That's good. Thanks for doing it
<charlie-tca> Did you update the chart?
<GridCube> :) nope, i was about to
<charlie-tca> :)
<GridCube> done
<Unit193> Ever find drc?
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> I hope nothing happened in California or on the way home
<Unit193> Last seen  : (about 2 weeks ago)
<charlie-tca> yeah, I know
<charlie-tca> No response to email, either
<Unit193> I got his address and # if you really want to give him a call :P
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> If he doesn' t respond to email, I won't call
<charlie-tca> Just one more person that disappeared
<Unit193> I think he's 55-59
<Unit193> (I'm still here and I still plan to test when others don't)
<charlie-tca> yup, maybe even 60, and a good tester, too
<Unit193> I try my best, but the good ones have more experience than I
<charlie-tca> They don't stay around too long... ;)
<charlie-tca> new and here, experienced and gone, I will take the new everytime
<Unit193> I always come back. Normally I find the sheet already has the tests for today
<charlie-tca> It's okay to do them again, or even do different ones
<charlie-tca> especially if today's have all been done.
<Unit193> Thanks for sending the minutes of the meetings, I like to read up, but it's still really nice to have them if I forget anything!
<charlie-tca> It's good for those who miss the meetings too. Sometimes people just can't/won't attend, but want to know what is happening anyway.
 * charlie-tca slaps head
<charlie-tca> You are welcome, Unit193 
<charlie-tca> Happy to be of service
<GridCube> :D
<Unit193> charlie-tca: I can't really make any of the meetings :(
<charlie-tca> That's okay. You can always bring stuff up here or on the mailing list
<charlie-tca> I broke it
<charlie-tca> Maybe I fixed it
<Unit193> How did you bork it?
<charlie-tca> changed a js
<charlie-tca> changed a shortcut key, it makes most of the letters not work no more
 * Unit193 is more irssi
<Unit193> I have seen some nice features I would like from weechat, but I'll live...
<charlie-tca> irssi is hard to use ;)
<charlie-tca> afterall, it is 'Terminal' only
<Unit193> Same with weechat... And mine is more GUI than the one pleia2 uses...
<pleia2> I use irssi
<Unit193> pleia2: Sorry for the ping... I know you do, my config just makes it more GUI like :)
<pleia2> :)
<charlie-tca> hm, I really want something close to Xchat, that works with dasher
<charlie-tca> weechat is the closest thing I can find, and it is not even close to xchat
<charlie-tca> At least I can make it work, sort of :)
<charlie-tca> knome: why doesn't shimmer have albatross, bluebird, greybird in xfce yet?
<knome> charlie-tca, you mean xfce-look.org?
<charlie-tca> Don't quite know. THere was a user in #xfce looking for a dark theme. When I brought up albatross and bluebird, they don't know about them
<knome> mmh.
<knome> is that user TCW ?
<charlie-tca> So I thought "why aren't these default themes in xfwm and appearance?
<charlie-tca> yes, I told him try #shimmer
<knome> right, you mean that
<charlie-tca> They got a ton of themes there, but most don't compare to your themes
<knome> i don't actually know. i suppose we could undertake a project with the xfce design SIG to clear up the theme and wallpaper catalog
<knome> yeah.
<charlie-tca> I don't know how to do it, but it is an idea
<knome> that's what the xfce design sig is for
<knome> that reminds me that i should blog about it
<charlie-tca> yup
<Unit193> What's the traffic and topic of #shimmer? (I can guess some of it)
<GridCube> I don't know a lot about what you are talking about, but i would like to say that i find really anoying how hided and obscure the walpapers folder for xfce is, i've symbolic linked it to a folder into ~/ now
<knome> the topic of #shimmer is our projects (see http://shimmerproject.org/). we also discuss about some design decisions or proposals for for example greybird
<knome> of course we are bringing the news about new features or changed stuff here as well, but we're saving you from the artist-artist argumentation ;)
<knome> feel free to join us, though
<GridCube> but you do support albatross rigth? will it be one of the choosable themes on the future, or it will only be grey/bluebird
<Unit193> I like getting the news, but if I can get it here, I don't really need to join (As I wouldn't have much to add)
<knome> albatross is already included in xubuntu
<knome> and it's being supported
<knome> and we're giving it a facelift this year
<charlie-tca> I know it is in Xubuntu, but not in the rest of the xfce distros, right?
<GridCube> :D awesome thats the theme i use, i don't really like shiny themes
<knome> not many visual changes, but just bringing it to 2011 and making it work well with the current murrine
<knome> charlie-tca, yup. i'm just working on it ;)
<charlie-tca> When I look in settings -> Appearance, I get a huge list of themes
<knome> charlie-tca, yes.
<charlie-tca> heh, I think we are on the same page, just confused again
<knome> charlie-tca, http://open.knome.fi/2011/06/22/xfce-design-sig-launches/ (going to be aggregated to planet ubuntu)
<charlie-tca> Good, I tried to publicize it a bit in the meeting, too
<knome> charlie-tca, added a new item @ https://wiki.xfce.org/design/start, see page bottom
<charlie-tca> That's the idea!
<GridCube> :P what about mine? XD linking the walpaper folder to the ~/Images/ folder?
<knome> GridCube, imo that's not really a xfce design sig item, and probably not an xfce item.
<GridCube> :( ok
<knome> ~/Images/ is *buntu*-specific (or if not specific, it's not at least general/obligatory)
<GridCube> who is it then? xdg?
<knome> xubuntu, i'd say, pretty much.
<charlie-tca> I suspect it is distro local, yes
<Unit193> ~/Images/wallpaper would be better,,,
<knome> but imo the wallpapers can't be just everything that is in ~/Images/ either, since for one, i hate people forcing me to have a non-hidden folder in home
<GridCube> well a ~/backdrops ? having the walpapers folders on /usr/dontknow/dontknoweither/noidea is really anoying
<knome> as i said, i will vote against any non-hidden directory in home
<charlie-tca> oh, yeah, I guess it is
<GridCube> knome, yeah that was my bad, i meanted ~/Images/whatever
<knome> GridCube, i don't have ~/Images/, so that would still force me to have that
<charlie-tca> GridCube: have you submitted the wishlist bug for that yet?
<GridCube> no
<Unit193> knome: Do you have Pictures?
<GridCube> just comenting that up
<knome> maybe something like a symlink from .config/xfce-wallpapers to the wallpapers directory...
<charlie-tca> talk will not usually result in much action.
<knome> Unit193, nope, in my ~, i only have Desktop, and then just some temporary/current files (so nothing permanent except Desktop)
<Unit193> I like the idea of ~/.config/something 
<Unit193> knome: Comes by default for me :/
<knome> Unit193, i know, but you are able to remove those
<knome> Unit193, if the wallpaper directory is there, it's not wise to do that
<astraljava> knome: I'm dumb, so out of curiosity, where do you keep your personal files? (sorry, completely OT)
<knome> astraljava, /data/knome/
<astraljava> Ok.
<knome> astraljava, which is a completely different HD
<GridCube> well, a ~/config/wallpapers folder then, it will really simplify things up
<GridCube> .c^
<knome> GridCube, mmh. mr_pouit might have a better idea, but something like that might work
<charlie-tca> submit it as a wishlist bug, give several ideas on how to resolve it.
<GridCube> charlie-tca, how to start a wishlist bug?
<GridCube> D: i can't find a "submit" link anywhere
<charlie-tca> open terminal, type ubuntu-bug xubuntu-meta, it opens a bug report in firefox, then give it a title, put your ideas in the next block, scroll to the bottom and hit save/submit/enter/whatever the thing is
<GridCube> >the package xubuntu-meta doesnt exist
<GridCube> :(
<charlie-tca> well!
<GridCube> frell?
<charlie-tca> does xubuntu-default-settings exist?
<GridCube> nope, nothing whit xu excep xulrunner
<charlie-tca> where are you looking?
<GridCube> bash and 2 tabs?
<charlie-tca> no
<charlie-tca> type it. ubuntu-bug xubuntu-meta
<GridCube> i did...
<charlie-tca> It is not an application, but a source package. bash won't know about it
<GridCube> http://imagebin.org/159548
<charlie-tca> instead of xubuntu-meta, use ubuntu-bug xubuntu-default-settings
<GridCube> default-settings do work :D
<charlie-tca> it does exist
<GridCube> :) thanks charlie-tca , sorry for bothering so much
<charlie-tca> np
<charlie-tca> At least we got it, right?
<GridCube> :D yes
<GridCube> should i add up there the fact that firefox "use this image as a wallpaper" do not work on xubuntu?
<charlie-tca> That should be a separate bug, shouldn't it? I did not know firefox can use the wallpaper, even
<charlie-tca> but, yeah, throw that into the bug report. If it works for Ubuntu, say that, too.
<charlie-tca> and steps to do that, will help
<GridCube> i don't know if it works on ubuntu
<charlie-tca> Tell us how to make it happen, if you can
<GridCube> oh... i just figured something... the folder is outside ~/ because of multiple users
<GridCube> if the folder is in ~/.config/backdrops   then another user wont be able to see those wallpapers
<GridCube> even if symlinked?
<charlie-tca> right, only the logged in user sees ~/.config
<charlie-tca> so each user would need the links or files
<knome> charlie-tca, errm, no?
<GridCube> yes, im considering that on my whislist message
<knome> charlie-tca, if the directory is linked, everybody will see the (updated) content
<knome> as long as it is not single files
<charlie-tca> We used to link to /usr/share/Example_Content in ~/Example_Content. maybe something similar would work?
<knome> charlie-tca, exactly, but in ~/.hidden :)
<charlie-tca> knome: no one except the user can see ~/
<charlie-tca> that is each users /home, not a public directory
<charlie-tca> /usr/share/??? is public, and all users have access
<knome> charlie-tca, yes... but if that's symlinked to /usr/share..
<charlie-tca> Then it has to be done for each user
<knome> yes
<knome> as /Example_Content
<charlie-tca> right, only the logged in user sees ~/.config]
<charlie-tca> is correct
<knome> yes, but if that is symlinked to /usr, what's the problem?
<Unit193> permissions?
<charlie-tca> I didn't say there was one. You told me I was wrong
<knome> the permissions are the same as they are in /usr
<knome> charlie-tca, okay :P i was assumed you thought there was a problem :P
<GridCube> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings/+bug/800918
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 800918 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Some wallpaper/backdrops ideas" [Undecided,New]
<GridCube> i don't know how to assing it "wishlist" status
<charlie-tca> I will do that
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-23
<Unit193> I know you/we/Xubuntu is switching to leafpad and saw this come across my email: http://www.mail-archive.com/lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net/msg04262.html | Title: [Lubuntu-desktop] Leafpad 0.8.18.1 packaged -- testing wanted
<knome> same here:
<knome> leaving now and will be off until sunday evening
<knome> have a nice weekend everybody
<ochosi> micahg: seems ff doesn't like scrollbars without arrows/steppers, especially horizontal ones break, anything we/you can do about that?
<micahg> ochosi: firefox uses xul scrollbars ATM
<Unit193> GridCube , charlie-tca: Looks like we have both CDs today (Still oversized by far)
<GridCube> today i can't test, sorry
<Unit193> astraljava: Forgot to ping you too ^^
<ochosi> micahg: so the answer is "no"?
<micahg> wow, live CD is finally back to what it was before
<micahg> ochosi: hmm, not sure I understand the question, why would you have a scrollbar w/out arrows
<ochosi> micahg: why not? it's a design question. i mean seriously: how often do you scroll by clicking the arrows?
<micahg> semi often?
<ochosi> rly? hm. i *never* use them
<ochosi> anyway, there are a lot of themes now that don't use the arrows
<ochosi> and ff breaks with all of them
<ochosi> so that's an annoying problem
<GridCube> i scroll by clicking on the arrows :/
<GridCube> my mouse's wheel doesnt work, and its easier that way most of the time
<GridCube> grabing the scroll bar and moving it by hand inst really a good idea on very long webpages or pdf's, i do use lots of pdfs
<ochosi> on pdfs i usually use the keyboard
<GridCube> true, that too
<micahg> ochosi: does mozilla 635018 sound related?
<ubottu> Mozilla bug 635018 in Widget: Gtk "Scrollbar doesn't fully respond to dynamic theme changes" [Normal,New: ] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=635018
<ochosi> micahg: not really, i'll show you my problem/s screenshot-wise if you like
<micahg> ochosi: hmm, well, I'm kinda busy ATM, can we do this later (or send me an email)
<ochosi> micahg: sure, np. we can talk tomorrow or another day, no rush
<micahg> k, thanks
<ochosi> well, thank you ;)
<ochosi> GridCube: that's how the scrollbar looks now: 159669
<ochosi> meh
<ochosi> http://imagebin.org/159669
<GridCube> yes, i've seen them, they do look pretty :)
<GridCube> :P but then again i change my theme back to albatross
<GridCube> XD sorry
<GridCube> its really too shiny
<ochosi> my problem is: i've tried a lot of arrow-styles, but none of them fit the scrollbar-style imo
<ochosi> albatross has pretty bright parts as well
<ochosi> i'll probably dim it a bit more
<GridCube> mmm whay about something near the color of the back part... let me do some silly mockup
<ochosi> sure, go ahead
<GridCube> http://imagebin.org/159670
<GridCube> :P as i said, a silly idea
<ochosi> you mean practically invisible scrollbar-arrows?
<ochosi> or is that white box intentional
<GridCube> not intentional, i wanted it to be all the same color of the arrow and the arrow blank but my editor choosed to fill the box whit white XD
<ochosi> you mean kinda inverse arrows?
<GridCube> i mean, almost invisible, so they wont bother the view, but actually be there?
<ochosi> not sure it's possible tbh
<ochosi> the options with arrows in murrine are really anything else than endless
<ochosi> two basic styles, the one that albatross uses and the one that greybird uses
<ochosi> and you can only scale the ones albatross uses
<ochosi> (the empty arrows)
<GridCube> :(
<ochosi> and that's about it
<GridCube> but you cant choose its color?
<ochosi> not independantly of the scrollbar-colors i think (iirc)
<GridCube> the shape doesn't really matter, the idea is them to be the same or almost the same as the background of the scrolling
<GridCube> ^color
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> i'll see what i can do
<ochosi> but i'm a bit pessimistic
<ochosi> g2g
<GridCube> :D
<ochosi> bbl
<GridCube> thanks
<GridCube> see you
<astraljava> Unit193: Yeah. I can't do testing for several days at this time. My son came over for a visit. I'll get on it on Sunday evening. Besides, it's Midsummer in Finland. Nobody does anything now. :D
<astraljava> Unit193: A graver matter is that I'll be moving to another city soon. Starting from Thursday next week, I'll not be in my own apartment for an indefinite amount of time. I expect to be able to return to some sort of testing later in July, or hopefully the latest in early August.
<micahg> astraljava: that's fine, it's whenever you can
<Unit193> There are people on the computer for testing all the time :(
<Unit193> I'm not sure how well this one could take it too...
<micahg> charlie-tca: I don't know if I'll be able to make the meeting next week
<Unit193> Live didn't like me
<Unit193> How well do you think a P4 2.8GHz, 2G, and 8xx Video could handle VBox?
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-24
<ochosi> hey charlie-tca 
<ochosi> do you have a minute?
<charlie-tca> sure
<ochosi> kewl
<charlie-tca> new trackball, might be a mess for a day or two, though
<ochosi> so, i really spent a lot of time on the scrollbars this week
<ochosi> so i wanted to give you a heads up on the outcome
<charlie-tca> what did we get? Should I grab the git?
<ochosi> not yet, maybe in a minute :)
<ochosi> i'll tell you first
<charlie-tca> okay
<ochosi> i realized that firefox has a problem with scrollbars without arrows
<ochosi> that simply breaks all horizontal scrolling
<ochosi> libreoffice also doesn't like scrollbars without arrows
<ochosi> but that's less of a concern to me than firefox
<ochosi> so now i created a scrollbar layout with a tiny tiny arrow
<charlie-tca> heh
<ochosi> it's basically a light-grey dot
<ochosi> i think it even looks kinda nice
<charlie-tca> I was really liking the arrow-less scrollbar
<charlie-tca> But, if we must...
<ochosi> yeah, i think then you might like this too
<ochosi> it's rather subtle
<ochosi> on bad screens people might not even see the dot
<ochosi> but it's usable
<ochosi> meaning you can click it
<ochosi> which is also kinda nice
<charlie-tca> can't click what you can't see
<ochosi> unless you know where it is ;)
<charlie-tca> true, or it is a mistake and you don't know why something scrolled
<ochosi> well, if you click the trough, you scroll anyway
<ochosi> but if you click where the arrows should be, it scrolls less
<ochosi> screener: http://imagebin.org/159825
<charlie-tca> Hm, I wonder if we will get bug reports for them being too hard to see?
<charlie-tca> It's fine for me, I know what it is, but I don't want users screaming at us for them, either.
<charlie-tca> Want to try it?
<charlie-tca> I am willing to see what happens
<charlie-tca> Have you pushed anything to oneiric yet?
<ochosi> k, sure, i'll quickly push the most recent version
<ochosi> one sec
<ochosi> btw, i made the scrollbar 1px wider so it's easier to grab (and in fact somehow murrine renders it nicer)
<charlie-tca> It would get more eyes looking at it, and more feedbck.
<charlie-tca> Great! I like that idea
<charlie-tca> I was thinking about that this morning. It seemed a bit narrow to me at times.
<ochosi> ok, just pushed it
<charlie-tca> to git or to bzr?
<ochosi> hm, about user-reports and the arrows, i guess it would be an option to show some early screenshots on planet.ubuntu.org and see whether people start shouting early
<ochosi> to git
<charlie-tca> Yeah, that would be a good thing to get out in front, wouldn't it?
<charlie-tca> I am going grab it
<ochosi> good
<ochosi> actually in firefox the arrows are a bit more visible than in other apps
<ochosi> but tbh honest firefox's xul scrollbars really don't work very well (no offense micahg ;) )
<charlie-tca> That's because firefox insists on having them, right?
<ochosi> yep
<ochosi> btw, i tested midori's bookmarks migration
<ochosi> it's really super-easy and works well
<charlie-tca> blame micahg, then. We haven't blamed him for much yet ;)
<charlie-tca> Yeah, neat, huh?
<ochosi> yep, i think that was one of the big blockers for midori in xubuntu, no?
<charlie-tca> The only issue I saw with midori was opening multiple tabs at once.
<ochosi> how do you mean?
<charlie-tca> yes, not being able to transfer bookmarks is a big deal
<charlie-tca> I couldn't get it to let me open all 40+ tabs at one time
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> 40+ tabs at once sounds more like a stresstest than an every-day usebase :)
<charlie-tca> It wants me to open each one separately, but it might be something I did, too
<ochosi> how did you open them?
<ochosi> i'd like to try aswell
<charlie-tca> I open those everyday, for bug triage
<charlie-tca> firefox, it is just a right click on the folder in bookmarks, open all in tabs
<charlie-tca> in midori, I couldn't find that option
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> interesting
<ochosi> i'll have a look
<charlie-tca> and, it is not fun, doing that many individually, daily
<charlie-tca> but, if that is all there is, shrugs
<ochosi> actually it works for me
<charlie-tca> really?
<charlie-tca> Then it is me... I like midori, too
<ochosi> i just right-clicked a folder in bookmarks and there is an option "open all in tabs"
<ochosi> and it works
<ochosi> at least for the three websites i had in that testfolder
<ochosi> maybe you have an older version of midori?
<charlie-tca> I will go try it again, then. Maybe it was old
 * ochosi has 0.3.2
<ochosi> midori doesn't have the scrollbar issues that firefox has ;)
<ochosi> an in general it's a very pretty app since it's all gtk
<charlie-tca> importing my bookmarks, let's see what happens. It looks like I tried it back in May
<charlie-tca> I still would like to see us using it. I even suggested both midori and firefox, but I can't get an answer I like on that.
<ochosi> you suggested it to whom?
<charlie-tca> micahg and the meetings
<charlie-tca> My midori is 0.3.6, and I can't find the bookmarks in it
<ochosi> so when you're showing the sidepanel and switch to bookmarks, there is nothing?
<charlie-tca> what sidepanel?
<ochosi> click the menu-button (the gear) and then show sidepanel
<ochosi> that's similar to ff's sidepanel
<charlie-tca> found it
<charlie-tca> without that, there are no bookmarks to access
<charlie-tca> Okay, we would need that on by default, I think
<charlie-tca> It is opening my tabs now
<charlie-tca> micahg even agreed to midori, if we decided to use it this cycle
<charlie-tca> That could be a space saver, couldn't it?
<ochosi> guess so
<ochosi> but i don't have the numbers anywhere near me :)
<ochosi> anyhow, if you just start typing in the address bar your bookmarks will also show up
<ochosi> like firefox's awesome bar
<charlie-tca> Yeah, I never have learned how to use that damn thing in firefox
<ochosi> so it's not completely hidden, rather trying to save screen estate
<GridCube> lubuntu uses chromium
<ochosi> hey GridCube 
<GridCube> hey :)
<ochosi> so i added tiny almost invisible arrows to the scrollbars, hope you're happy now ;) http://imagebin.org/159825
<ochosi> but they're functionalÃ¶
<GridCube> :D nice
<ochosi> feel free to grab the latest version from git and try them live
<ochosi> (and don't switch back to albatross immediately!)
<charlie-tca> GridCube: yes, but we don't
<GridCube> ok ochosi will do when i'm on my pc
<GridCube> yes i know charlie-tca, i meant that if we want a small (functional) browser, chromium is a choice, not my choice, but a choice
<charlie-tca> ochosi: if we have a chance for midori, I will start using it again
<ochosi> charlie-tca: yeah, i'd say let's start testing it a bit more
<charlie-tca> I can do that
<charlie-tca> GridCube: We want to test midori, too
<ochosi> there are enough arguments to at least discuss it again imo
<charlie-tca> chromium been knocked out everytime, for a lot of different issues.
<GridCube> :D
<charlie-tca> The only reason we did not switch to midori for 11.04 was the bookmarks could not be imported.
<GridCube> ok, good because i dont like chromium
<GridCube> but then again, in the last weeks it has been the only browser unafected by the facebook/hotmail attacks to firefox
 * ochosi is wondering why his midori version is so old compared to charlie-tca's...
<charlie-tca> oneiric?
<ochosi> yeah, guess so, i'm still on natty
<charlie-tca> or am I pulling from the ppa again?
<ochosi> but i decided to add the midori ppa now
<charlie-tca> !info midori
<ubottu> midori (source: midori): fast, lightweight graphical web browser. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.3.2-0.1ubuntu1 (natty), package size 1014 kB, installed size 3556 kB
<charlie-tca> !info midori oneiric
<ubottu> midori (source: midori): fast, lightweight graphical web browser. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.3.6-1ubuntu1 (oneiric), package size 1073 kB, installed size 3704 kB
<charlie-tca> there it is
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> !info firefox oneiric
<ubottu> firefox (source: firefox): Safe and easy web browser from Mozilla. In component main, is optional. Version 5.0+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu1 (oneiric), package size 16484 kB, installed size 35832 kB
<ochosi> ~30mb size difference
<GridCube> D: thats a huge difference
<ochosi> in just that package
<micahg> ochosi: both natty and oneiric have Firefox 5
<ochosi> micahg: yep, i know
<micahg> GridCube: chromium in Lubuntu is counterintuitive as it's larger than firefox and uses more memory
<charlie-tca> That is a lot of disk space, isn't it?
<micahg> charlie-tca: what's the issue with let's see if we have space? :)
<ochosi> well, it's not killing us i guess
<ochosi> it's "just another argument"
<charlie-tca> WE are way oversized, and have to keep gtk2 and gtk3, right?
<micahg> !info chromium-browser
<ubottu> chromium-browser (source: chromium-browser): Chromium browser. In component universe, is optional. Version 12.0.742.91~r87961-0ubuntu0.11.04.1 (natty), package size 16069 kB, installed size 55964 kB (Only available for i386 amd64 all)
<ochosi> from an artwork point of view i'm all for midori, because it's all gtk :)
<micahg> charlie-tca: yeah, I'll fix that after alpha 2, the platform rally is next week and idk if I'll have time before that
<charlie-tca> We still have hopes for midori, micahg 
<micahg> charlie-tca: my guess is I can get both on the CD, but let's see what happens
<ochosi> wow, midori's new speed dial is pretty fancy
<micahg> midori won't take up much space it's just ATM we have none :)
<charlie-tca> win/win
<charlie-tca> I got to keep hoping, right ;)
<ochosi> charlie-tca: have you tried "menu" > "customize toolbar" and then add the bookmarks there?
<GridCube> question. what if, just what if, once one downloads/installs xubuntu a "choose your browser" app appears and lets you choose what browser to install?  like some windows installations have (OEM) that let you choose a browser on startup
<micahg> charlie-tca: I think we can make it happen
<charlie-tca> huh?
<ochosi> charlie-tca: it gives you a nice star that shows all your bookmarks as a menu
<charlie-tca> I can add it to a menu I don' t even have?
<micahg> well, kubuntu has a firefox installer, but it makes sense for them as they don't want a GTK2 stack on their install
<ochosi> GridCube: i think that edubuntu has something like that
<charlie-tca> Where did you get this "customize" ?
<charlie-tca> GridCube: we just throw them both into the menu and let the user choose
<charlie-tca> It makes midori more visible
<ochosi> charlie-tca: http://imagebin.org/159832
<ochosi> charlie-tca: what you'll get is the star next to the pressed menu-button
<charlie-tca> ochosi: I don't have that option
<ochosi> i think that's a lot less obtrusive than showing the whole sidebar by default
<ochosi> rly?
<ochosi> then my midori is newer than yours ;)
<ochosi> https://launchpad.net/~midori/+archive/ppa
<ochosi> and
<ochosi> https://launchpad.net/~webkit-team/+archive/ppa
<ochosi> anyhow, will go for drinks with a few friends now
<ochosi> feel free to ping me when you have greybird-feedback
<ochosi> i'll read it in the backlog tomorrow
<charlie-tca> here - http://imagebin.org/159834
<charlie-tca> kubuntu offers both konqueror or something and firefox on the finished install
<micahg> charlie-tca: kubuntu has rekonq by default with an installer for Firefox
<ochosi> edubuntu's choice happens in the ubiquity dialog iirc
<micahg> ochosi: that PPA has the same version as oneiric
<ochosi> maybe we should look into that if there's enough space
<ochosi> micahg: hm, the screenshots kinda tell a different story
<charlie-tca> no, firefox is installed in oneiric, at least
<charlie-tca> Maybe I got my options wrong in preferences, ochosi 
<micahg> ochosi: maybe they have customizations or something, I just took what Debian had
<ochosi> sry, i think i have the "toolbar customizer" extension installed
<ochosi> s/installed/activated
<ochosi> it should be a part of midori iirc
<ochosi> with that you can add the button
<ochosi> (i guess)
<micahg> :)
<charlie-tca> found it
<charlie-tca> toolbar editor is an extension in midori
<charlie-tca> I haven't played with the extensions
<charlie-tca> but I will. I will start using it in place of firefox
 * ochosi hasn't really either
<ochosi> i've only tried the adblock
<ochosi> and that seems to work ok
<charlie-tca> I block ads with dnsmasq
<ochosi> nice
<ochosi> k, now i really g2g
<charlie-tca> Since it is on my server, any machine I connect gets the ads blocked automatically
<ochosi> see you around everyone!
<charlie-tca> Have a good weekend
<ochosi> thx you too
<charlie-tca> hm, You can't export bookmarks in html from firefox?
<GridCube> yes
<GridCube> wait, yes, you can
<charlie-tca> how?
<GridCube> i dont have it in english, but is >bookmarks >manage bookmarks >import and save >save as html
<charlie-tca> firefox 5.0; no manage bookmarks
<charlie-tca> Maybe it just isn't my day for browsers :(
<GridCube> O_o
<GridCube> let me do some research
<charlie-tca> I haven't found a single option yet today when told it was there, midori and firefox
<GridCube> mmm
<GridCube> what if you type >about:bookmarks
<charlie-tca> losing battle.
<charlie-tca> The URL is not recognized
<GridCube> :P take the long road
<GridCube> >help >information to solve problems >open containing folder >manually copy bookmarks.html
<charlie-tca> ahem, there is none
<GridCube> :(
<charlie-tca> they are now json files
<charlie-tca> I can't win today
<charlie-tca> Even the backup files appear to be .json
<charlie-tca> now... :(
<GridCube> :/
<GridCube> can i see your bookmarks menu display?
<charlie-tca> so, is firefox getting like IE, lock the users in and forget about letting them do anything with any other browser?
<GridCube> crtl+shift+b?
<charlie-tca> This one? http://imagebin.org/159842
<charlie-tca> That shortcut doesn't work, either
<GridCube> oh
<GridCube> is "show all bookmarks" ctrl-shift-o
<GridCube> that should open a window and the last menu should be "export & backup" or something like that
<charlie-tca> That's the one I lost. Thanks for being so persistent
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> so its there, correct?
<GridCube> its fun because even in spaÃ±ish the names change if you use the "spain" or the "argentina" localization
<charlie-tca> yeah, it is there
<mr_pouit> ochosi: I can't find Bug #636532  upstream (it was reported for other plugins though). Am I blind tonight, or was it forgotten? :P
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 636532 in xfce4-timer-plugin (Ubuntu) "xfce4-timer-plugin uses "gtk-paste" as app-icon" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/636532
<mr_pouit> also, I got a mail from LP that gridcube wants to join ~xubuntu-art
<mr_pouit> grmpf
<mr_pouit> mohkay, it seems actually neither knome nor you are in this team =]
<mr_pouit> bwarf, that's a mess
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-25
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: admins get those notices. I got one too. knome resigned from that team and made Xubuntu team the admins.
<ochosi> mr_pouit: i fixed that bug myself by submitting an icon to florian ;)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: and yes, the xubuntu-art team seems kinda deprecated :)
<ochosi> but in case you wanna revive that team feel free to kick me in
<mr_pouit> hoy
<mr_pouit> ochosi: mmh, but there's no commit about a new icon in timer-plugin (even the recent 0.6.2 release stil uses gtk-pasteâ¦)
<mr_pouit> ok, I don't really care about whether a special team is needed or not, so it can stay like that
<GridCube> good evening
<GridCube> ochosi can i get the new greybird on 10.04?
<GridCube> or need to try it on 11.04?
<GridCube> it does not look awesome on 10.04
<ochosi> mr_pouit: hm, strange, gotta check that again then. guess i mixed it up with some other panel-plugin
<ochosi> GridCube: the murrine version in 10.04 is too old for greybird
<ochosi> GridCube: if you install a newer version from some ppa it will work
<ochosi> GridCube: we plan to provide a newer version in the shimmer ppa, hopefully that'll happen soonish
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> i tried it on my vbox
<GridCube> it looks pretty nice
<GridCube> :D i really like the tiny arrows
<GridCube> :D updating murrine did it ochosi 
<GridCube> D: 
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: We are keeping Synaptic Package Manager in Xubuntu, aren't we? I would prefer it over software center, TBH
<mr_pouit> there's already software-center in the default install
<charlie-tca> I know, does that mean we also lose synaptic?
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu has also decided to not include it anymore, by default.
<charlie-tca> Software Center has its share of broken, though.
<mr_pouit> nope, we still have both
<charlie-tca> Great! Puts my mind at ease then. Thank you
<charlie-tca> Oh, yeah. I am told gtk2 will be gone in 12.04
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu developers will not maintain anything gtk2 at that time
<charlie-tca> Of course, that doesn't mean we can not maintain what we need, too.
<mr_pouit> yeah, I discussed about that with didrocks
<mr_pouit> indicators will go gtk3-only as well, so we'll have to either stop using them, or port some wrappers for gtk3 in the panel
<charlie-tca> At least will be be able to decide down the road though
#xubuntu-devel 2011-06-26
<GridCube> I for one vote NO to midori until a bookmark bar is available
<charlie-tca> GridCube: preferences -> sidebar
<charlie-tca> turns on bookmarks on the left side
<charlie-tca> and then, if you want, Preferences -> extensions, bookmarks
<charlie-tca> adds a start to the taskbar to turn bookmarks on and off
<charlie-tca> oops
<charlie-tca> menu -> sidebar
<charlie-tca> turns bookmarks on
<GridCube> but sidebar is really anoying :/
<charlie-tca> but it is bookmarks
<charlie-tca> From #xubuntu on June 25:
<charlie-tca> gNewPower | It is so wonderful to be back to a well designed, rational, desktop manager, file manager, setting application ,etc. Xubuntu is pure joy for me   
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> nice
<GridCube> also trying the last greybird, whit tiny arrows, it is awesome, a lot moew awesome than whitout arrows
<charlie-tca> Yeah, I been using it too. Not sure the tiny arrows won't become a point of contention, since users might not even see them, but time will tell.
<charlie-tca> At least now firefox is happy with the scrollbars, which are really neat!
<GridCube> :D but if there where no arrows then even more people would come saying "Since installing x i've lost the arrows on my windows why?" but now we can tell them, they are there bro
<charlie-tca> yes, true. Also, firefox doesn't like not having arrows
<GridCube> yes, ochosi said so, neither does libreoffice
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> We shall see what happens with it. 
<GridCube> :D
<mr_pouit> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/oneiric-changes/2011-June/003569.html maybe we could go back to file-roller then
<charlie-tca> file-roller in Oneiric recommends gvfs, which should be okay
<spongedaddy> hello all
<spongedaddy> in the last meeting there was mention of a need to work on xubuntu documentation.
<spongedaddy> is there still such a need?
<spongedaddy> i'd be happy to devote a couple of hours a week to it.
<charlie-tca> yes, there is
<charlie-tca> We need to update the areas of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu to match our current release and applications
<charlie-tca> We also need to insure our documentation included in the release matches 
<charlie-tca> spongedaddy: do you know how to edit the wiki?
<spongedaddy> not yet :)
<charlie-tca> Good time to learn?
<spongedaddy> seems to be
<charlie-tca> We use mallard for the documentation, outside the wiki
<spongedaddy> ok -- i guess i need to look that up
<charlie-tca> It is pretty much just editing the pages, and the help in the wiki is good
<charlie-tca> both https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnEditing and
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnMoinWikiSyntax 
<charlie-tca> are good resources for it. It doesn't take too much of a learning curve for this. and, all changes can be reverted. Everything is backed up every change.
<charlie-tca> I can actually revert 90 days ago or more if need be.
<charlie-tca> The current release is Natty Narwhal, 11.04
<charlie-tca> Our development release is Oneiric Ocelot, and these change every six months
<charlie-tca> wiki.ubuntu.com is the developers wiki, it is not usually pointed to for users
 * charlie-tca finally got weechat to show "away" nicks in the nicklist
<spongedaddy> ok - good - thanks
<spongedaddy> will have a look at those links
<spongedaddy> i'm looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu 
<spongedaddy> anything specific that needs attention?
<charlie-tca> Any references to the end of life releases needs fixing.
<charlie-tca> I haven't looked at most of the pages in a while, myself
<charlie-tca> xfce is now 4.8, if anything mentions it
<micahg> charlie-tca: just reminding you again, I probably will not be at the meeting tomorrow
<charlie-tca> Thanks, micahg 
<charlie-tca> any updates to development, firefox, or thunderbird to mention?
<micahg> Thunderbird 5 final will probably hit oneiric soon
<charlie-tca> spongedaddy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Documentation/Wiki
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Documentation/Wiki/ToDo
<charlie-tca> I think are both out of date, too
<spongedaddy> ok -- i'll take a look at the ToDo list 
<spongedaddy> and see if there are any that are doc-centric 
<charlie-tca> That should be the docs todo list, actually
<spongedaddy> ok -- poking around now -- thanks!
<pleia2> this conversation reminded me to get the email out about more content review for the actual site ;)
<charlie-tca> spongedaddy: more docs at the website needing to be looked at:
<charlie-tca> http://xubuntu.org
<charlie-tca> we need to look at all the pages and update them. We do those updates by writing the page and asking pleia2 where to put it to have it updated.
<pleia2> my email about it: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-June/007840.html
<spongedaddy> ok -- i'm game
<charlie-tca> Kind of an evolving process, huh?
<spongedaddy> however, i may need a hint knowing what is 'accurate' and 'complete' 
<spongedaddy> yes - documentation and processes, like software, are always evolving :)
<charlie-tca> We will try to answer when we can
<spongedaddy> groovy
<charlie-tca> accurate meaning doesn't include old applications, old releases, references that have been deleted
<charlie-tca> complete being includes current releases, applications we now use, and actual details where needed for an explanation
<spongedaddy> so everything should be current re Natty, correct?
<charlie-tca> Sometimes we get in a hurry, and don't actually tell the reader anything
<charlie-tca> yes, natty
<charlie-tca> unless referring to lts, and then it is lucid
<spongedaddy> so i guess i need to register with launchpad to get started editing
<Unit193> Is there already/going to be an installed programs list?
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-18
<hobgoblin> morning - if anyone's awake - what should I file a usb not opening thunar against ? 
<hobgoblin> nvm - google fu was weak in this one today :p
<hobgoblin> while I think about it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/ has got grandr on the list - shouldn't be there as it's not in the repos now
<astraljava> hobgoblin: You could ping GridCube about it when he's present.
<hobgoblin> okey doke
<Unit193> I'm pretty sure he's aware.
<hobgoblin> that's alright then - just seems a bit daft to have it on there :)
<Unit193> Aye, it's not an option really.
<ochosi> hobgoblin: yeah, i think it was discussed previously, removed it from the list now
<ochosi> madnick: ping
<madnick> ochosi: pong
<madnick> as for what you said yesterday
<madnick> I've been reviewing the code 
<madnick> I've just not implemented anything or uploaded a branch
<hobgoblin> ochosi: thanks :)
<ochosi> madnick: ok, just wanted to get back to you on that
<madnick> ochosi: if i wanted to use bazar on this, could i?
<madnick> Do I have any rights
<ochosi> i haven't created a team or anything yet, but we can quickly look into that now if you have time
<madnick> okay awesome
<madnick> Maybe we could just assign it to Xubuntu artwork?
<ochosi> are you in that team?
<madnick> i think so
<madnick> 1 sec
<madnick> Hm I seem to have been kicked off that team
<ochosi> that must've been knome_'s spring cleaning
<madnick> how about xubuntu team?
<ochosi> too many people in there
<madnick> i see
<ochosi> but actually i'm wondering whether i messed up something, because the /code page says that we host our code @ unity-greeter .)
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~dr.madnick  should show all places you can upload.
<ochosi> guess i should've pulled their code and then pushed it to our repo, will quickly inquire in #launchpad
<madnick> i see
<madnick> Im not sure where this belongs, seeing as plymouth stuff was decided to be "artwork", i think this should be aswell, the problem with seperating people who "do artwork" and others, is this hehe
<ochosi> yeah, i agree
<ochosi> are there any plans/blueprints for plymouth yet?
<madnick> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-new-plymouth
<ochosi> "Prepare refreshed drafts for the theme" > can they be found anywhere?
<madnick> But I have not been hearing anything specific this cycle, about the things that should be implemented
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> i see
<madnick> ochosi: I'd say its the old one
<madnick> Refreshing has not been done
<ochosi> well personally i think the circular progress-indicator would be nice
<madnick> Yeah
<ochosi> just any kind of spinner
<madnick> I think a general review of the code used for feedback should be done
<madnick> Currently we have a lot of "last minute" code
<ochosi> you mean feedback like "running fsck"?
<madnick> yeah
<ochosi> how many of those feedback scenarios are there?
<madnick> And the most annoying aspect is the fact that testing plymouth stuff in a VM is almost impossible
<ochosi> mhm
<madnick> ochosi: there is fsck, cryptsetup, indicator, press X key
<madnick> etc
<ochosi> could you make a (complete) list?
<ochosi> then we could discuss each one of them
<ochosi> ideally create a spec in the wiki and link it to the roadmap
<madnick> That would not be useful, seeing as we do not implement all of them, we should instead review the possibilities 
<knome> hmm, i can't remember droppint madnick off the art team
<knome> *dropping
<madnick> I don't remember being dropped either
<ochosi> knome: tbh i think xubuntu-dev would be more appropriate for the lightdm engine/theme
<madnick> No mail
<knome> ochosi, yeah, but that's problematic
<ochosi> knome: i can also create a separate lp-team
<knome> hmh, art is fine for that
<madnick> ochosi: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1046805/
<madnick> these are the possibilties
<knome> ochosi, if you want to propose a new xubuntu LP team, add that to the meeting agenda
<madnick> ochosi: but those are just callbacks, the "messages" is what decides actions
<knome> ochosi, i'm not sure if we need any new, rather drop the old ;)
<knome> ochosi, we were thinking with pleia2 that maybe -marketing would work well, and we could drop -website then
<ochosi> madnick: actually there is another greeter we could use/fork
<ochosi> madnick: that one doesn't even use gnome-settings-daemon
<madnick> okay?
<ochosi> it's pantheon-greeter from the elementary project
<knome> don't confuse him (us)
<ochosi> ?
<knome> ;)
<knome> "there's yet another..."
<madnick> The thing that is quite awesome with the unity-greeter is it comes complete with code for screenreader and virtual keyboard, aswell as other neat stuff
<knome> ^ that
<knome> 's ++
<ochosi> madnick: yeah, not sure pantheon-greeter has that
<madnick> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~elementary-pantheon/pantheon-greeter/1.x/view/head:/src/indicators.vala
<madnick> would seem it likes gnome-settings-daemon
<ochosi> yeah, weird. then maybe it's just bad packaging
<ochosi> http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-06182012-093032am.php
<ochosi> knome: i think i'm more or less done with the greybird-revamp
<knome> :)
<ochosi> i even created a pixmap panel-background for the launcher-panel in case we won't use the compositor
<ochosi> not sure you'll like it though :p
<knome> heh
<ochosi> here it is: http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-06182012-093211am.php
<knome> i got to test that sometime
<ochosi> haven't pushed the vast changes i did yesterday yet
<knome> hmmh.
<ochosi> wondering whether i can retrospectively split them up in smaller commits
<ochosi> not really sure about that
<knome> that's not completely bad :)
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> if the panel is on autohide, it looks a bit as if it would slide in underneath the wallpaper
<ochosi> because of the drop-shadow
<ochosi> pixmaps have the disadvantage that people have to change/modify them if they make the panel higher than the height of the pixmap (bg-repeat), but it's easy enough to change now in the panel-properties
<ochosi> madnick: we could also try to convince robert_ancell to drop gnome-settings-daemon
<ochosi> madnick: hehe, just realized i already tried that before
<knome> eh
<ochosi> > Were not going to modify Unity greeter to support different use cases, 
<ochosi> > as we want to be able to quickly adapt it in it's current form.  A 
<ochosi> > forked version however shouldn't be too hard to keep in sync if you were 
<ochosi> > willing to maintain it.
<madnick> hehe
<madnick> Well, lets just fork it
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> madnick: if you apply to xubuntu-artwork lp-group i can approve you and then you can push to bzr
<ochosi> (just changed the maintainer of xubuntu-greeter to xubuntu-artwork)
<knome> ochosi, note that you an add people directly too
<ochosi> true
<ochosi> madnick: you've been added
<madnick> Technically I think I could add myself aswell :P I just need to get some login stuff
<madnick> ah thanks :)
<ochosi> np
<ochosi> madnick: if you could do an initial push now so that we have just the fork there, that'd be great. i just wanna make sure everything works
<madnick> ochosi: I do not have a suitable dev environment for that, I will need to setup a VM with the new images and get the tools, I will download the required things today
<ochosi> ah ok, in that case please ping me as soon as you've done that
<madnick> will do :)
<ochosi> k, thanks
<ochosi> :)
<knome> astraljava, how was the QA meeting?
<knome> astraljava, i forgot that completely, but turned out i couldn't have made it anyway :)
<knome> astraljava, i quickly looked at backlog, was there something you needed to check from me?
 * knome reads the chanlogs
<hobgoblin> I thought it went well 
<ochosi> knome: there are meetings @ml
<knome> ochosi, ?
<knome> ochosi, "minutes" ?
<ochosi> meeting minutes?
<knome> you said "meetings" :D
<knome> i'm lost.
<knome> what meetings are on the ml?
<ochosi> yeah, sry, i meant meeting minutes :)
<knome> hmm.
<ochosi> (i'm kinda focussing on something else right now)
<knome> why did i miss that mail? BLAH
<knome> wait...
<knome> i haven't received it?
<knome> oh, hmm
<knome> weird
<knome> that's at my inbox
<knome> ok, fixed
<knome> heh, "fix committed" on the bug GridCube pasted :)
<knome> i suppose the buttons are coming this cycle, at least based on the discussions with stgraber :)
<astraljava> knome: It's the world's slowest meeting. Takes only a few years to complete.
<knome> yeah, i notice. :)
<knome> maybe using meetingology in a more relaxed way is not too bad
<knome> i mean, just use #startmeeting, #topic and #info, and gathering the meeting minutes is a breeze
<astraljava> Well, I found I could not create strict topics, nor give out any precise info lines either, so didn't see a real reason for starting it properly either.
<astraljava> It was more of a conversational meeting.
<knome> hmm.
<knome> imo "failed" should be filed only if you weren't able to *finish* the test
<astraljava> Yes. Why?
<knome> even if something failed, just link the bugs, then mark as passed
<astraljava> Hmm...
<knome> because:
<knome> if you mark it as "failed", it looks like the xubuntu iso's are not ready for release
<knome> because that's the stats people are looking at
<astraljava> Is there a case you're referring to?
<knome> astraljava, If anything failed, you mark the image as failed. If you didn't stumble upon anything unexpected, you'll mark it as Passed.
<knome> ^ from the meeting log
<astraljava> I think we might have a mixed understanding of 'releasable'.
<astraljava> Are you referring to "installation failed"?
<astraljava> Releasable to me covers a bit more than just "being able to install".
<knome> astraljava, only critical bugs should fail the image
<knome> astraljava, there will be bugs on releases anyway, those shouldn't stop us from releasing non-final milestones
<knome> astraljava, especially not alphas
<astraljava>  Yeah ok, maybe that needs a little bit refining. I'll remember that for the next meeting, and post corrections. Thanks!
<knome> astraljava, that's why there are the "bugs" and "critical bugs" sections in the QA tracker
<knome> astraljava, i've seen some tests with some really minor bugs marked as "failed"
<hobgoblin> astraljava: so mine should be a pass with a bug - is that right? 
<knome> if those turn up, and the test pass rate is, say 50%, that isn't completely accurate
<astraljava> hobgoblin: From the recent discussion, yeah I think that's how it is.
<hobgoblin> k - cool - so long as I know 
<knome> hobgoblin, depends on the bug; if it's something that is seriously interfering from installing, it should be "bug", not "critical", and thus the test should not fail
<knome> astraljava, example; the terminal help doesn't open; should that be a "fail", just because there is that bug? :)
<hobgoblin> knome: it was nothing like that 
<astraljava> knome: But we shouldn't be talking about "interfering from installing". That's different from being releasable.
<knome> astraljava, i think it would be meaningful to ask the QA team too what they think of this
<knome> astraljava, and what is generally the difference between a bug and a critical bug
<astraljava> yeah I agree. This is a little too vague now.
<knome> yup. great :)
<knome> i'll continue with the log
<hobgoblin> knome: so if "hobgoblin, ..... it should be "bug", not "critical", and thus the test should not fail" what would be critical?  
<hobgoblin> cos I would expect something that stops you installing to be critical - logically speaking
<astraljava> hobgoblin: That's what we have to specify.
<hobgoblin> ok :)
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Depends.
<astraljava> If we're talking about "being releasable", you wouldn't ship a product that's installable, but not usable, right?
<knome> hobgoblin, well at least something that stops you from following the testcase; eg. if you are testing the "encrypted home", but can't encrypt home, the bug that prevents you to encrypt should be critical + fail the image
<knome> yes, "pass" should mean "the image is installable and usable"
<knome> but that doesn't mean the image can't have any bugs
<knome> "fail" should be "the image is either not installable or not usable"
<hobgoblin> ok - I understand that 
<astraljava> True. If we're thinking about hobgoblin's case, then I don't know if I'd again switch sides. We need to clarify which steps are required to work, and which are just bonus.
<knome> astraljava, usb doesn't mount autmatically?
<knome> astraljava, if you can mount manually, it's a pass. if not, it's a fail.
<astraljava> If the case says to try USB sticks, and you can't browse them, then is it a fail or pass?
<knome> see prev comment ^
<knome> or was it about mounting by default
<knome> or not being able to access at all generally
<astraljava> Well what fun is it being able to mount, if you can't browse?
<hobgoblin> knome: it was in dmesg - not in thunar - in fact none of the other partitions that I would see in thnar normally are there - didn't bother trying to manually mount it 
<knome> i suppose it boils down to "is the stick browseable on other systems" and "what's the filesystem"
<knome> if it is browseable, and the fs is FAT, i'd say it might be a fail
<astraljava> knome: Have fun trying to open that up in the testcase. :D
<knome> if it's not browseable, or the filesystem is NTFS, i'd say that's a pass
<knome> just use common sense.
<astraljava> You're talking about plain users here. *smirk*
<knome> i think there should be a way to mark "failed" tests "passed" by some "product admins" at a later stage
<knome> and the other way too
<knome> well that ^
<astraljava> knome: No, we don't need that. The results don't have to be used by cold numbers.
<knome> i understood there's going to be some "product admins" anyway
<knome> or sth, ask stgraber :)
<hobgoblin> I've got common sense - a usb that was used to install from should be bwoseable when you reboot after install in my opinion :)
<astraljava> Okay, well, I wouldn't mind, but it's not a pre-requisite IMHO.
<knome> the point was that there's going to be more granularity in the permissions
<hobgoblin> as a plain user :)
<astraljava> hobgoblin: I wasn't comparing you to a plain user. Sorry if that was confusing. :D
<knome> astraljava, yes, agreed in "cold numbers"
<hobgoblin> lol
<knome> astraljava, but the -release list is getting those pass/fail percentages, so i'd rather get them right
<astraljava> knome: I'd like that very much. (re: granularity)
<astraljava> knome: Yeah ok, then it makes sense.
<knome> astraljava, so to say, those are not just for us
<astraljava> I have been a little out from the -release for this cycle. I'll try to do better.
<knome> np :)
<knome> i've been out too, and while i've been in, there hasn't been anything
<knome> the things i refer to regarding QA tracker was discussed mostly last cycle with stgraber personally
<ochosi> knome, pleia2: could one (or both) of you please proof-read my article on x.org?
<knome> i can do later today
 * astraljava was scolded for missing the deadlines for the emails, too
<knome> astraljava, oh, oops. no, i didn't make changes to the Long document
<knome> astraljava, but i remember most of it anyway
<knome> astraljava, what should be left is not the big thing, the big thing is making it readable in addition
<astraljava> Okay, maybe I recall that incorrectly anyway. But I thought we started going through that, did we not?
<knome> yeah, we quickly did, but i didn't make any specific notes (except mental)
<astraljava> I just remember saying I was too tired at one point, and that we ought to switch to NHL '11 at that point. :D
<knome> yup!
<astraljava> Right, so if you remember anything at all, could you throw a draft somewhere, and we could go through it with the princess as well?
<ochosi> knome, pleia2: btw, i consciously decided against including something like a "changelog", i think pictures speak louder than words anyway
<knome> i can do that later too :)
<astraljava> Sweet! Thanks. :)
<knome> ochosi, looks fine, though i'd probably change the last <p> to either remove the "(if you know how)" or quickly paste the command
<knome> ochosi, also, it's lacking your "the writer is"...
<ochosi> oh true, i forgot that we still add that manually
<knome> yup :P
<ochosi> i was also wondering whether i should try to structure the text more by formatting it
<ochosi> i mean adding <em> etc
<knome> if you want to emphasize some thing specifically, then maybe
<ochosi> or i could add headers
<knome> that works too
<ochosi> knome: ok, updated
<knome> astraljava, sent my notes about the long test to you and pleia2 
<knome> ochosi, make the "feedback" a separate <p> and <strong> it
 * astraljava kisses knome on the mouth
<knome> umm, eww
<knome> :D
<ochosi> knome: ok done. if you approve it, please press publish
<hobgoblin> astraljava knome - if either of you are here = so is grub install failed - this is a fatal error - critical - not critical - and a fail regardless ?
<ochosi> bbl
<astraljava> hobgoblin: That's a sure-fire fail, and very critical indeed.
<hobgoblin> ok - 'but' I did 'fiddle' with the install - did a entire disc install - but went to the partitioner and changed grub from sda to sdc - would that change your thinking?
<hobgoblin> in my mind it's a fail still 
<astraljava> Hmm... well if you're sure the system _should_ be able to boot from that, then yes. Have you checked the BIOS boot section?
<knome> ochosi, btw, it's *Quantal*
<knome> ochosi, fixed that though.
<knome> ochosi, and publsihed
<knome> -typo
<hobgoblin> oh I know that it would normally be ok astraljava 
<astraljava> Ok, yeah. You should mark the test as failed, and provide the bug report with grub messages attached (on the bug, not on the tracker).
<hobgoblin> k
<hobgoblin> where do you get grub messages from - never had an install fail on me before lol
<astraljava> hobgoblin: So how exactly does it fail, then? I'm sorry, I assumed that it fails to boot after grub was installed on another partition/drive.
<hobgoblin> hang on - just found the next bit lol
<astraljava> Ugh... going through an image _bit by bit_ is much more hardcore I could ever imagine myself doing testing. *smirk*
<hobgoblin> finished without installing grub - apport started mpw
<hobgoblin> bah - it was my fail 
<hobgoblin> but at least I've seen an install fail now :)
<astraljava> http://astraljava.kapsi.fi/fail-set-sail-for-fail1.jpg
<hobgoblin> yep that works for me too :)(
<astraljava> Love that pic.
<hobgoblin> so in future - don't tell the installer to install grub to somewhere it is set to do something to - extreme confusion ensues :)
<astraljava> Yep, even that description confuses the konfutse out of me.
<hobgoblin> :)
<hobgoblin> confused me - and I did it ... 
<hobgoblin> so if you've done a bunch of tests - and you have the same bugs - should you put them against each test you did ?
<madnick> ochosi: got the environment all setup, going to bed now :) 
<madnick> Ill be up in 12h
<ochosi> madnick: ok, ttyl then
<ochosi> knome: thanks for correction and publication then
<knome> ochosi, np
<ochosi> pleia2: could you share today's post on x.org by me on g+? i mean i can do it via my own profile, but i think the "official" xubuntu channel would be better. if you do so, please change the last paragraph to "feedback is welcome _here_" instead of irc and ml :)
<ochosi> knome: btw, currently i'm using the lower panel not as launcher, but as "dock", meaning i have my open windows there
<knome> ochosi, aha
<ochosi> knome: it's really nice, but otoh makes the top-panel almost useless ;)
<knome> ochosi, i'm currently using a non-default, not-completely-conservative-layout too
<pleia2> ochosi: yep
<ochosi> reminds me of the days when xubuntu had the gnome2-panel setup
<ochosi> pleia2: thanks a bunch!
<ochosi> knome: what's your setup then?
<knome> sec, upping a shot
<knome> ochosi, http://temp.knome.fi/other/shot-panel-layout.png
<knome> ochosi, both are 90% of the monitor width, non-hide
<knome> ochosi, the top panel only has the window list
<knome> ochosi, and the top panel expands automatically to 100% if needed (== if many windows open)
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> actually xfce4.10 panel has quite a few nice feats
<knome> ochosi, and both the panels have separators at both ends, bringing some visual "breathing space"
<ochosi> you should really pull latest greybird to tell me about the panel-style :)
<knome> heh
<ochosi> mhm, i noticed
<knome> oh, you noticed the top panel right-hand separator? ;]
<ochosi> but actually i'm so happy about the new panel style that on second thought maybe don't tell me about it :)
<ochosi> hehe, yeah of course... :)
<knome> heh, maybe i should
<ochosi> anyway, off for dinner
<ochosi> ttyl
<knome> ba
<knome> pleia2, hai
<knome> pleia2, you prolly got my mail about the long testcase
<pleia2> knome: yeah, I'll try to have a look at it tonight
<knome> pleia2, yup, np; if you have questions though, feel free to ping
<pleia2> thanks :)
<knome> well, i have much more time for these kinds of things now
<knome> as i put it to my friends;
<knome> i, as the XPL, decide the direction of the project and about any new features/changes and janne, as the QA lead, makes sure the quality stays
<knome> ;)
<knome> (that's not the serious reason)
<GridCube> knome: o/
<knome> hey GridCube 
<GridCube> when can we meet to talk? not today
<knome> i discussed this with ochosi today, we need to schedule soon
<GridCube> good :) 
<ochosi> pleia2: one more thing, would you mind to change "GreyBird" to "Greybird"?
<pleia2> ochosi: fixed, sorry :)
<ochosi> pleia2: np, thanks again!:)
<ochosi> pleia2: btw, i think i completely forgot about the xubuntu/ubuntu-women-stickers
<pleia2> ochosi: yep you did!
<ochosi> pleia2: i wanted to order some from you, if you still have some
<pleia2> I think I'll do a personal blog post about giving them away
<ochosi> sounds good
<pleia2> yeah sure, just email me your address: lyz@ubuntu.com
<ochosi> ok, email me back your account details so i can send you some retribution
<ochosi> ok, sent
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-19
<ochosi> madnick: ping
<ochosi> knome: i think you're right that we have to talk with GridCube about the default audio-player spec soon
<knome> yup
<ochosi> especially because it implies that we should take care of the other default apps as well
<knome> heh :)
<ochosi> "we" == xubuntu team
<knome> i should send some email to the list
<ochosi> or you could also say: we (you and i) should at least assign someone
<hobgoblin> what a good team you are 
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> hobgoblin: do you feel like helping us with default apps?
<hobgoblin> I am scheduled to give gridcube a hand with the media stuff 
<hobgoblin> but if there's anything else I can help with I'm happy to 
<ochosi> hobgoblin: just check the list of default apps here and tell me if you're interested in any of it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Goals/Quantal
<hobgoblin> I have looked at that already - there's really only a couple of things on there I could help with - media and arandr
<hobgoblin> though I could I suppose look at menu managing at a stretch
<ochosi> ideally the use-case of the app would apply to you as well â what i mean to say is: if you don't use backup-apps, it's probably too hard to compare apps for that
<hobgoblin> ok - well is there use-cases for them all?
<ochosi> the things i personally care about in this list: package-manager, video-player, backup-app and probably monitor management
<ochosi> i'm not sure, i've never used a webcam app, not sure how useful it is tbh
<hobgoblin> package management/monitors/media/menu (now and again) 
<ochosi> but yeah, supposedly there is a use-case for that too (maybe gridcube can elaborate)
<hobgoblin> I don't do gimp/webcam/
<hobgoblin> but I do fiddle about trying different things - for the last 5 years lol - so I suppose I have some experience at it :)
<ochosi> yeah, personally i think keeping gimp is more a technical decision
<ochosi> knome: we should really prioritize the list of default apps
<hobgoblin> yea - imho opinion gimp is one of those - if there is enough reason then why not 
<knome> ochosi, propose?
<hobgoblin> but - if someone can give me some guidance about what is needed - then I am happy to help
<ochosi> knome: put those items, where we have an ok-working solution at the moment to the bottom :)
<knome> ochosi, i mean, yeah, edit the wiki, do a proposal ;)
<ochosi> knome: menu-manager, video-player, audio-player, image-editor etc
<ochosi> knome: ok :)
<ochosi> hobgoblin: sure we can â as you said, we're a great team ;)
<hobgoblin> lol
<ochosi> knome: i'll do that after lunch, have to go in 5
<knome> ochosi, np
<ochosi> but really, i think the list is misleading because it mixes apples and oranges
<ochosi> there are use-cases where we don't haev anything currently (webcam, backups)
<ochosi> then there are apps, where we're just considering alternatives
<ochosi> and then there are apps that we'd love to replace if we can (e.g. USC)
<hobgoblin> I replace USC with an empty menu place 
<ochosi> yeah, we can all fix things for ourselves, but we should really think about what's best for everyone
<ochosi> i mean everyone who'd potentially use xubuntu
<hobgoblin> what's the lubuntu one like? 
<ochosi> try it :p
<hobgoblin> sounds like a dare to me ... 
<knome> i've sent email to the -devel ML
<knome> everybody please get to it
<hobgoblin> ochosi: well it works - but there's a whole lot of white space there
<ochosi> off for lunch, bbl
<knome> ochosi, bon appetit
<hobgoblin> have a good one 
<ochosi> ty
<ochosi> knome: i'll propose a few importances on the default apps, feel free to ping me on that
<knome> ok, will do
<ochosi> what do you think about sending an email to the ML asking people to help out with app-comparisons?
<ochosi> i mean as long as we show them the old samples we have, it won't fail too miserably (hopefully
<knome> worksforme
<ochosi> )
<ochosi> just an example: i never use backup-tools (apart from rysnc), so i dunno what people would wanna use
<ochosi> otoh i think it's good to have by default
<ochosi> dropbox integration or ubuntu-one integration or something like that
<knome> i use rsync exclusively, too
<ochosi> or an app that handles all of those
<ochosi> yeah, many users don't have their own servers :)
<ochosi> ok, the proposed importances are set
<ochosi> whoop, row-color break
<ochosi> i'll fix that as soon as you've commented
<knome> wut?:P
<knome> oh right
<knome> just a sec
<knome> i think "importance" is a bit wrong
<knome> maybe it should be something that describes how much work it is useful to put in that group
<knome> rather than describing how important it is to change (now)
<ochosi> yeah, i totally agree
<ochosi> but this is kinda how i prioritized them
<knome> maybe change the importance-column to "priority"
<ochosi> mhm, better
<knome> i'm thinking of monitor management -> high, and maybe video player -> med
<knome> and maybe package manager -> essential
<ochosi> mkay
<knome> but that depends much on when synaptic is dying
<ochosi> yeah, we should inquire a bit
<ochosi> btw, arandr is nice, maybe we could improve it to work better with xfce
<knome> yup
<knome> anyway with these changes (+ importance -> priority), i'm ok with it
<ochosi> hey astraljava 
 * knome gets something to eat+drink
<astraljava> o/
<knome> hey
<knome> btw, i might not be able to attend the meeting tomorrow; in that case, could either of you chair it?
<ochosi> yup, hope so
<knome> good
<ochosi> astraljava: how busy are you on a scale of 1-10 (10==swamped with work)
<knome> there isn't much on the agenda, so it should be rather easy/quick
<knome> ..unless astraljava wants to go through some QA items
<knome> ochosi, he's -10, whenever i talk with him on daytime, he's slacking at home
 * knome shakes head
<ochosi> lol
<astraljava> knome: Yeah, but you have no idea about my moonlighting...
<knome> astraljava, if that relates to the silverlight-moonlight, i don't want to know...
<astraljava> ochosi: Well, basically I'm probably around 8-9, but many of my tasks are slightly adjustable. :) Our definition of 'slight' may vary.
<ochosi> astraljava: ok, thing is that we need to re-distribute mr_pouit's workitems
<knome> meh, this yoghurt said "less sugar", but it still tastes like sugar
<knome> :P
<astraljava> ochosi: Tell me more, you got me interested.
<ochosi> :)
<knome> lol, now you want to be the technical lead too?
<knome> hunger grows eating, i suppose..
<ochosi> astraljava: i don't think that it's actually _so_ hard to do, but we wanted to slightly improve xfce4-display-dialog#
<ochosi> knome: or was it the other way round?
<knome> ochosi, ;)
<astraljava> knome: Yes. And you know what comes after that?! O;-)
<knome> hahah.
<ochosi> khalif instead of the khalif? :}
<knome> well, it's possibly up for grabs after the 13.04 cycle
<astraljava> Nah, I'm good with these two. *smirk*
<knome> ;)
<knome> anyway, don't believe ochosi when he says "it's not *so* hard to do"
<knome> ;)
<astraljava> ochosi: Ok. Is there anything written somewhere about the problems?
<astraljava> knome: I don't believe anything written on this channel.
<astraljava> Myself the least.
<knome> good policy
<ochosi> astraljava: well there's a multi-monitor-spec, but that is the advanced plan
<astraljava> Alright. Yeah I'm of the less-advanced variety.
<ochosi> astraljava: for the small improvement (which i'd head for first), we'd just need more comboboxes to support xrandr-leftof and xrand-rightof and possibly a check-box for "mirror displays"
<ochosi> that's already it
<ochosi> people have no simple way of aligning multiple displays
<astraljava> ochosi: Right. Well that _does not_ sound overly complicated.
<ochosi> atm they have to set that themselves in xfconf
<ochosi> which sucks
<astraljava> ochosi: But is there a reason why not to use arandr for that?
<knome> not very user-friendly at least.
<ochosi> arandr is a bit nicer, it's in python and has a widget that represents the connected displays (whcih would be the advanced version)
<ochosi> astraljava: tbh the UI is horrible
<astraljava> Ok. :)
<ochosi> astraljava: i already formulated an email to the author/maintainer in case you say "no" :)
<ochosi> astraljava: also: i prefer to improve xfce, because that's good for all distros
<astraljava> Well I wouldn't say no. I've already planned the mid-summer long weekend for all *buntu and related computery stuff.
<astraljava> ...which means this upcoming weekend.
<ochosi> kewl
<ochosi> unfortunately i won't be around for moral support
 * ochosi is going to a cottage with some friends
<astraljava> That's fine, I'll just cough up a first draft.
<ochosi> but if you're up for it, we can quickly write down a list of things to do
<astraljava> Sure, sounds like a plan.
<ochosi> i can also make a quick mockup just to be sure we're talking about the same things
<astraljava> Wouldn't hurt, either.
<knome> ochosi, can you come up with something that *does* hurt?
<astraljava> Yeah, gnome forgot to hurt me on Thursday.
<ochosi> :)
<knome> did i? dang.
<knome> :)
<ochosi> astraljava: here you go, this is what i had in mind: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/MultipleMonitors#Improve_Xfce.27s_dialog
<ochosi> astraljava: is it understandable/clear enough?
<astraljava> OUCH! That hurts!
<ochosi> what does? me pinging you?
<astraljava> I won't tell you.
<ochosi> ok, well i'm satisfied as long as you tell me bout the display dialog :)
<knome> astraljava, stop trying to use those lightbulbs as earplugs.
<astraljava> ochosi: Ok, yeah. That looks understandable even to me.
<astraljava> knome: But I've heard about this light treatment through your ears...
<ochosi> astraljava: right. so it's one checkbox and one combobox, no more no less
<knome> yeah, at least try the energy-saving lights.
<astraljava> ochosi: Cool. I'll chat with the guys on #xfce-dev if I run across any problems. Otherwise I'll try to produce this change over the weekend.
<ochosi> astraljava: great!
<ochosi> btw, the two guys mainly responsible for the display-dialog are mr_pouit and jeromeg
<ochosi> both of those french fries are currently a bit "off the grid"
<ochosi> so don't expect immediate support
<astraljava> Buahaha!
<knome> hmm, french fries would be nice.
<ochosi> another thing that would be cool would be a "identify monitors" button
<ochosi> but that's for later :)
<ochosi> astraljava: btw, if you're done with the simple improvement and are kinda bored, you can try and steal ristretto's wallpaper-widget for the display-dialog ;)
<astraljava> Heheh. :) Ok, I'll see if such a thing occurs.
<ochosi> yeah, no problem though, the most important thing would be that we have this small yet so important improvement for 12.10
<astraljava> Sure. But you're free to tell me what that is, and does. :)
<ochosi> you mean the identify-monitors?
<astraljava> No, the wallpaper-widget.
<ochosi> ah :)
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> it's this. http://www.zimagez.com/zimage/screenshot-06192012-032531pm.php
<ochosi> it knows about the alignment and resolution of the screens
<ochosi> and it draws the monitors in cairo
<ochosi> so it could be used to visually reflect the changes to position made in the display-dialog
<astraljava> Oh ok. Sounds nice.
<ochosi> yeah, that would be the advanced version ;)
<ochosi> mainly because of stuff like D'N'D
<hobgoblin> that was a lot of reading ... 
<knome> if you refer to the strategy document, imagine how much writing it was :)
<hobgoblin> knome: I refer to both that and the backlog :)
<hobgoblin> oh and the monitor thingy above :)
<knome> heh:)
 * astraljava lols again at the kernel meeting
<ochosi> Unit193: mind to check up on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/SettingsManagerApps ?
<ochosi> Unit193: would be nice if you could pack them into a table and add the category to each item
<astraljava> Clocked in  at less than 6.5 minutes, with 20 seconds at the end just idle time, waiting for unexpected items.
<astraljava> Oops, sorry, wrong channel.
<ochosi> Unit193: maybe we could also get two columns, one human-readable, one for the name of the desktop-file
 * Unit193 wanders around looking for a masochist
<hobgoblin> ha ha ha
<Unit193> Is there a list of catagories?
<Unit193> hobgoblin: Are you one? :D
<hobgoblin> I guess you could if you stretched it call me a category. 
<Unit193> +masochist
<hobgoblin> fraid not 
<astraljava> categorically masochist
<hobgoblin> thanks astraljava 
<hobgoblin> bad timing
<ochosi> k, g2g
<Unit193> I really don't know the names of all these, or have them installed (others added?)
<Unit193> ochosi: As requested, categories and table, but only a start.
<hobgoblin> Unit193: qtconfig-qt4
<Unit193> Thank you!
<hobgoblin> :)
<Unit193> (Is that the correct name?)
<hobgoblin> that's what it calls for in the menu
<hobgoblin> compizconfig-settings-manager as well byt the way :p
<Unit193> Stinking knome and his getting of small changes...  Thanks, never used that one.
<hobgoblin> lol
<Unit193> Name right?  And do you happen to know bluetooth? :D
<hobgoblin> the thing to install is qt4-qtconfig - but qtconfig-qt4 is what's in /usr/bin
<hobgoblin> aboslutely no idea at all - uninstalling bluetooth is in the first things I do 
<Unit193> There are many that go, if I were to install xubu-desktop, I'd gain many packages and 73.1M (not that bad.)
<hobgoblin> indeed
<Unit193> Right, http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~blueman/blueman/trunk/view/head:/data/blueman-manager.desktop.in that's my guess.
<hobgoblin> yea
<hobgoblin> pretty sure that's it
<Unit193> Danke, got it maybe all worked out.  Like the categories?
<hobgoblin> Unit193: do you want proper feedback on having these things in the settings manager from a community member 
<hobgoblin> even if it is a hobgoblin 
<Unit193> Sure, why not?
<Unit193> Though, I've been told the review of applications will be done in a meeting.
<hobgoblin> ok - then I'll do it then I'm about :)
<hobgoblin> if
<Unit193> Categories is just something I randomly picked, or looked at Categories= section.
<Unit193> Bluetooth may be a hardware thing, but seems more $whateveriputatthetime.
<hobgoblin> lol
<knome> i edited the page a bit.
<knome> (layout only, should be a bit more readable now)
<Unit193> Yeah, that's why I was looking for a masochist.
<knome> :P
<Unit193> ochosi wanted a table, so that's what I did.
<knome> yeah.
<knome> probably could've been readable with alternate row colors
<knome> (we so have to get that to the ubuntu wiki as default :()
<Unit193> Note, I don't really care, either way works for meâ¢
<knome> i don't care either as long as it is readable :)
<hobgoblin> I can;t read it 
<hobgoblin> :p
<Unit193> Put on your old man glasses. ;)
<hobgoblin> sure you don't mean "Put on your glasses, old man" :p
 * hobgoblin is going to read knome's tome again in the morning and right a long reply 
<astraljava> TL;DR
<hobgoblin> or rather write one 
<hobgoblin> astraljava: too late ... I did :)
<hobgoblin> astraljava: I hope you noticed I did 5 dailies yesterday/today 
<astraljava> You've got lots to learn
<astraljava> No I didn't. 
<hobgoblin> I'll not do that again then 
 * astraljava didn't pay any attention
<hobgoblin> lol
<astraljava> I was too busy fighting with this stupid machine
<hobgoblin> neither did hobgoblin 
<astraljava> But thanks, anyway!
<hobgoblin> ha I spent 2 hours fighting my isp and e-mail today :(
<astraljava> This is very good data for the release meeting on Friday.
<astraljava> We're gonna have to talk about it tomorrow at the meeting.
<hobgoblin> I'll do more tomorrow 
<astraljava> Are we gonna do Alpha-2 or not.
<hobgoblin> but I won't be doing any autoresize ones - unless vbox is ok 
<Unit193> So the docs are re-written, and I have to read them before doing tests?
<hobgoblin> Unit193: the short test is 
<hobgoblin> I'venot seen new long one 
<astraljava> The long one is still under construction.
<astraljava> I'll try to get that revised for the meeting on Sunday.
<hobgoblin> astraljava: if you want a guinea pig to run through it let me know 
<astraljava> Thanks! I'll keep in mind.
<knome> hobgoblin, one wish; please separate different issues to separate paragraphs, even they were really tiny things. thanks! :)
 * knome is referring to https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008255.html
<hobgoblin> I will - I tried to read that reply as well 
<knome> i just replied to that
<ochosi> Unit193: well done, thanks!
<Unit193> knome helped, as did hobgob.
<knome> i messed it up.
<knome> :)
<Unit193> I mess everything up, it's part of the plan.
<ochosi> have you tried whether additional categories are added automagically?
<Unit193> Xfce 4.8
<ochosi> awwh
<ochosi> anyone else? knome?
<knome> 4.8 too
<Unit193> Other has .10.
<ochosi> ok, i can give it a try tomorrow hopefully, but i'm rather busy this week
<knome> ochosi, btw, i will be most probably away at the time of the meeting, so you'll actually get to chair the meeting ;)
<ochosi> mkay
<ochosi> g2g, bbl
<knome> see you
<GridCube> knome, tomorrow i have most of the day free
<GridCube> flag day :D
<knome> GridCube, congrats :)
<GridCube> :P i say if you and ochosi want we could talk tomorrow
<knome> mmh. i'm not sure if i have time, definitely not after 13UTC.
<astraljava> knome: If we're starting to become picky about posting styles, could we please pay a little attention to trimming the posts as well? Huh? *smirk*
<knome> huh? :P
<knome> are you saying i'm too verbose?
<knome> or did i do something weird?
<astraljava> Trimming the quotes, I should have said. :)
<knome> right
<knome> i didn't really trim any of the text
<knome> if you are referring to...
<astraljava> I rest my case.
<knome> >From my point of view, the best way to proceed is to give the Xubuntu
<knome> ... i didn't see that in TB
<knome> it looks okay for me :|
<astraljava> No I'm not referring to that particular email (which I haven't even read, mind you). But the history.
<knome> if i did something weird, just tell me
<knome> i'm trying to make sensible trims, though sometimes it goes all nuts.
<astraljava> Nah, no big deal. Just that oftentimes, posts to the lists have full originals, and a line added either to the end, or somewhere in the middle.
<knome> mmh.
<knome> -devel isn't that much traffic that i think it hurts much. but what do i know?
<astraljava> xubuntu-devel alone might not be, but when you're on dozens of such...
<knome> heh.
<knome> well, i'm not
 * astraljava lost track of mailing lists subscribed back in '06...
<knome> i just unsubscribed from some not a long time ago.
<astraljava> I should have thought of that. *grin*
<astraljava> Currently, I'd estimate the number of incoming emails per day around 600 or so. Three thirds of them I can dismiss just by reading the subject line. But that still leaves a few to skim through.
<knome> heh
<knome> i had something like 50 coming a day, now i unsubscribed and reviewed the filter, and i have like 5 a day
<knome> ...
<astraljava> Non-internet days become horror quickly. :D
<knome> heh, i see
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-20
<ochosi> Unit193: i'm afraid i have to disappoint you
<Unit193> No blackbird. :/
<ochosi> Unit193: no, not that :)
<ochosi> i mean: the categories you put down in the settings-manager UI are fine and dandy, but you can't create new categories on-the-fly it seems
<ochosi> so we'll have to live with what we got
<ochosi> everything isn't part of the defined standard categories goes into "other" automatically
<ochosi> ergo the current list will have to be re-adjusted to fit the existing categories in the 4.10 settings-manager
<Unit193> Alright, that works.
<Unit193> Once I know the list.
<ochosi> personal, hardware, system, other
<ochosi> that's it, no more, no less
<Unit193> Welp, not my fault.
<ochosi> i guess the .menu file of the settings-manager could be patched to allow more categories
<ochosi> but personally i'd prefer and keep it simple
<Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008260.html Indicates a meeting tomorrow, but not on the calendar, unless I'm blind. pleia2 <<<
<ochosi> so maybe trying to stick to these makes sense
<ochosi> yeah, there is a meeting tomorrow afaik
<Unit193> Yes, just was trying to conform to what you requested.
<ochosi> i'm supposed to chair it, but i'm not sure i can make it
<Unit193> Not it.
<ochosi> anyway, g2g to bed no
<ochosi> w
<ochosi> if you have time it'd be great if you could apply the new categories :)
<ochosi> ttyl, night Unit193 
<Unit193> Good night, ochosi.
<Unit193> knome: Take a look over those please?  I'm just randomly making something up, and would adding Passwords and Keys be good?
<pleia2> Next Xubuntu community meeting at 21st of June, at 15UTC (knome, 15:55:04)
<pleia2> but that's thursday
<pleia2> (last one was on wednesday)
<Unit193> If you wouldn't mind putting it on the GCal?
<pleia2> for wednesday or thursday?
<Unit193> Yes.
<pleia2> :P
<pleia2> meetings every day!
<Unit193> Heh, whenever the meeting is. :P
<pleia2> our last one was wednesday, in his email knome said "tomorrow" but in the meeting minutes for last time he said thursday
<pleia2> so I'm thinking tomorrow/wednesday
<pleia2> not the 21st
<pleia2> ok, added it for tomorrow
<Unit193> Danke.
<astraljava> We could try a rolling meeting procedure. Analogous to gentoo's rolling releases.
 * micahg will probably miss this one too as it's looking to be a late night
<astraljava> micahg: Don't worry about the meeting, but if you have any pointers regarding the milestone next week, please do share. Otherwise, take care and don't burn out. :)
<micahg> astraljava: just that we need testers and to let mr_pouit or I know if something is broke
<astraljava> micahg: Sure thing. Thanks!
<astraljava> I'm going through the results on the tracker before today's meetings, I'll pick up the bugs mentioned there.
<micahg> although, my time is very limited until the weekend
<astraljava> No worries, I'll mention them, but I won't expect you to stand on guard ready to act immediately. I'll see if I can do something myself, too. It's high time for me to get into bug fixing for Xfce. :)
<hobgoblin> astraljava: one of the ones I reported is fix committed for precise - not sure it's been reported against quantal though
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Ok. Do you have the bug # handy?
<hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/870297
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 870297 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "Lightdm logins not being logged in wtmp" [High,Triaged]
<hobgoblin> I can do the bug if necessary
<astraljava> Ok, so it should be hitting quantal when the fixed version gets released.
<hobgoblin> k - no need for extra work then - sounds good to me 
<knome> pleia2, yeah, it's always wednesday
<astraljava> http://www.marriedtothesea.com/092607/
<Unit193> knome: Had to re-categorize the programs, as you can't have custom ones.
<knome> Unit193, i noticed, still looks good
<knome> astraljava, erh, ok. :)
<knome> astraljava, i don't quite "get" that comic, but ok
<knome> astraljava, i mean, mtts generally
<Unit193> Feel free to change around, I was guessing at best. :P
<astraljava> They're really weird. Just thought it was fitting for the day.
<knome> heh, i suppose.
<knome> as if i didn't like weird stuff.
<knome> should make some phonecalls
<ochosi> hi everyone
<hobgoblin> morning ochosi 
<ochosi> actually it's high noon here :)
<ochosi> but morning hobgoblin 
<hobgoblin> :)
<hobgoblin> another 30 minutes and it'll be afternoon here too 
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> astraljava: just to be sure, do you need anything else from me for the display-dialog or can you pursue this by yourself on the weekend?
<ochosi> madnick: ping
<madnick> ochosi: pong
<ochosi> hey, i just wanted to quickly follow up on yesterday
<madnick> which part?
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> the xubuntu-greeter part
<madnick> ah, yeah, I need to generate a new key
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> just wanted to ask because there was no initial push yet
<madnick> i just need to figure out how i can keep it his time
<madnick> ochosi: yeah you need the key for bzr
<ochosi> don't leave it in the VM? ;)
<madnick> hehe
<madnick> I need the VM for the dev environment :-<
<madnick> I suppose I could manually copy it
<ochosi> sure, but you can copy it to a safe location
<ochosi> (some call that "backups")
<madnick> I heard of those mythical things
<ochosi> okie :)
<ochosi> ok, in that case i guess we have to wait until you have a key again
<ochosi> s/we/i/ :)
<ochosi> i think we need to create a todo-list of the changes though
<madnick> Yeah, I'll try to get to it asap, poke me with a stick if its not done tomorrow before 09:00
<madnick> ochosi: yes
<ochosi> one simple thing i'd love is for the login-box to be centered
<ochosi> and we need to replace gnome-settings-daemon with xfsettingsd
<ochosi> and ideally manage multi-monitor-support
<ochosi> if that's not baked into unity-greeter already
<ochosi> that's already it
<madnick> i think it it draws the bg
<madnick> for each screen
<ochosi> yeah, but does it also only display _one_ login box?
<madnick> yes
<ochosi> my experience was that it mirrors
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> then that's fine
<madnick> Hm, you made me unsure now
<ochosi> but it'd be nice if the behaviour of primary-monitor would match the behaviour of the xubuntu-session
<madnick> Because in 12.04 I can only get mirrored anyway, thats why I still run 11.04 on this machine
<ochosi> a-ha
<ochosi> ok, so: mandatory is to drop g-s-d
<ochosi> optional is: small design tweaks (e.g. login-box alignment)
<madnick> mandatory: change add an "x" to "ubuntu"
<ochosi> wishful-thinking is: multi-monitor-support as drafted in the spec: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Quantal/MultipleMonitors
<ochosi> the settings-gui is also optional imo
<ochosi> better get a working greeter first
<ochosi> madnick: i'm off for lunch now, would you mind compiling that into a list and throwing it on the whiteboard? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-new-lightdm
<madnick> sure
<ochosi> ok, thanks
<ochosi> ttyl!
<knome> ochosi, astraljava, pleia2: just reminding: i'm not able to make the meeting today.
<knome> ochosi, astraljava, pleia2: somebody of you should chair
<knome> err, english fail, but anyway
<madnick> I did not change the work items in the blueprint, since they are general (like an apple patent), but I added the stuff to the whiteboard :)
<knome> i'd maybe add a work item for "Replace gnome-settings-daemon with xfsettingsd"
<madnick> knome: True
<knome> that's kind of separate, the rest belong with the general item
<thauriswulfa> they should add this metaphor to dictionary : like an apple patent. ha  ha ha
<thauriswulfa> simile , my bad
<ochosi> knome: are you still there?
<knome> ochosi, for a few mins
<ochosi> knome: ok, i just wanted to say that i can chair the meeting
<knome> ok, good
<ochosi> also: what's the plan for the action-item "en/disable compositor"?
<knome> in the "open action items" -item, just go through things from the last meetings that ain't done yet
<knome> discussion, but i think we need to postpone that
<ochosi> ok, i'll just work with last meeting's summary
<ochosi> maybe some of the others will be there as well and help me out :)
<knome> well, there is the quicklist for actions
<ochosi> a-ha?
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<knome> see "Action items, by person"
<knome> other than those, there is really nothing
<ochosi> oh right
<ochosi> yeah, that's useful
<knome> well, on the announcements, just point to the ML link
<knome> and say feedback is welcome
<ochosi> btw, have you talked to gridcube yet about the music-player thingy?
<knome> i think janne might want to go through some testing stuff
<knome> no, not yet
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> how much time do you have now?
<ochosi> we could quickly drop a few music-players
<ochosi> :}
<knome> i don't know, but 0-5mins
<ochosi> that should work ;)
<knome> i got to go when i get a call
<knome> ok
<ochosi> let's drop: moc, nightingale, clementine for sure
<knome> drop: anything with Qt, anything CLI, nighthingale
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> exactly
<ochosi> many of the others need investigation
<ochosi> and i think we have to add a few and remove others
<knome> done.
<ochosi> but first off, we should decide whether the list of "desired features" is ok
<knome> ok
<knome> i need to go now
<knome> see you later
<ochosi> alrighty
<ochosi> seeya
<hobgoblin> I can give you some input on that if you want it ochosi 
<ochosi> sure
<hobgoblin> all of those desired features are important to me :)
<hobgoblin> the first 3 are important imo
<hobgoblin> saving playlists is too - searching and podcasts less so
<hobgoblin> as far as the list goes - exaile will save playlists - it just calls it export
<hobgoblin> I've never been able to tell the difference between gmusicbroswer and quodlibet
<hobgoblin> of the 'simple' ones listen is the best I think
<ochosi> actually there are a few other criteria that are important for an app, apart from features
<ochosi> e.g. how well is it maintained
<hobgoblin> of course there are - I'm looking at it from a user pov :)
<ochosi> is there a roadmap that implies that stuff we want will be implemented in the (near?) future
<ochosi> stuff like that :)
<ochosi> yeah, just sayin that this has to be taken into account#
<hobgoblin> not that I know of - but I've only really been involved for a short while :)
<hobgoblin> I said I'd give gridcube a hand with this - but I've not seen him much to speak too 
<ochosi> i added a few inline comments to gridcube's user-experience section
<ochosi> if you see him feel free to let him know
<ochosi> also: feel free to read through them yourself, i'm always open for discussions
<astraljava> I think he said he should be available today, flag day or something.
<astraljava> hobgoblin: I'm still only half-way through getting the test results. Are you available for the meeting in less than an hour? I wanna talk about Alpha-2, and you have been testing it the most. Your input would be very valuable.
<hobgoblin> I'll be about - ping me :)
<astraljava> Thanks, will do, when the time comes. But it'll be obvious if you follow the meeting anyway. :)
<hobgoblin> I'm right in the middle of trying to find out how my isp e-mail account has been compromised :(
<hobgoblin> so I might not be following ... 
<ochosi> ouch
<ochosi> Reminder/Disclaimer: -- Xubuntu Community meeting in 20min here. --
<hobgoblin> sigh
<astraljava> ouch indeed
<hobgoblin> k - all ears now 
<astraljava> Three minutes still. MAKE SOME NOISE!! *ahem*
<hobgoblin> :)
<pleia2> morning
<foobar55> stop smoking plz
<ochosi> morning pleia2 
<ochosi> astraljava, pleia2: do any of you two feel like chairing? ^^
<astraljava> I thought you meant to? :)
<pleia2> not really, just woke up, still pre-coffee :)
<ochosi> astraljava: well i can :) but i don't mind if any of you want to
 * ochosi is so extremely humble, it's hard to take
<astraljava> Go ahead, be strong! You can do it. :) I'll cover the next one, then.
<ochosi> pleia2: ok, i guess that speaks for itself :)
<ochosi> astraljava: hehe, ok ;)
<ochosi> meetingology: ready?
<meetingology> ochosi: Error: "ready?" is not a valid command.
<ochosi> i take that as a "yes"
<ochosi> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 20 15:03:01 2012 UTC.  The chair is ochosi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ochosi> soo, welcome everyone
<ochosi> first thing on our agenda are the open action items from last time
<ochosi> i
<ochosi> i'll go through them by person
<ochosi> astraljava: what about your two action-items?
<astraljava> #info astraljava to send information on the Xubuntu QA meeting - DONE
<astraljava> #info astraljava to look at enabling/disabling compositor - PENDING
<ochosi> ok
<astraljava> I can talk about the first one on QA section.
<astraljava> ..
<ochosi> sounds good
<ochosi> pleia2: what about your two items? (work on marketing products with knome, raise publicity on testing/docs)
<pleia2> #info pleia2 and knome to work on marketing products is in progress, I made some edits to Xubuntu/Marketing this past week but still need to gather content for fliers
<pleia2> #info pleia2 to raise publicity on triaging, testing and docs - no updates here
<pleia2> .
<ochosi> k, thanks
<ochosi> #info ochosi to send more information on Greybird and a request for feedback to ML - PENDING
<ochosi> #info information on Greybird has been distributed through the website and google+ so far, mailinglist will follow shortly
<ochosi> ok, since knome isn't present, this is it with open action-items from last time
<ochosi> personally i think the compositor-discussion should be postponed until astraljava has fully investigated
<ochosi> astraljava: what do you think? ^
<astraljava> I agree, it needs more data to back up any decisions.
<astraljava> ..
<ochosi> ok, good, let's continue with teams
<ochosi> #topic development
<ochosi> mr_pouit, micahg: any further updates in the development department?
<ochosi> ok, let's skip ahead to QA and get back to development if one of the two comes around
<ochosi> #topic Quality Assurance
<ochosi> astraljava: take the stage :)
<astraljava> #info We had our QA meeting last Sunday, the minutes of which can be read at:
<astraljava> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008252.html
<astraljava> #info We have again a similar meeting this coming Sunday, details can be found on the minutes above.
<astraljava> #info Loosely, new testers were guided on how to do quality assurance, how to follow the testcases, where to get images to be tested etc.
<astraljava> #info It was agreed that the testcases need more refinery. Related to that, we just had the Ubuntu QA community meeting. Agreed on there was that each point in testcase is critical, meaning if any of them fails, the whole test fails.
<astraljava> #info There's also going to be new testcases, and a new interface for administering them, for flavors as well. More news about this when the thing develops.
<astraljava> #info We have had a few tests done on the images (thanks hobgoblin, others!), but I need to gather a bit more data on how we're doing. This is more important to the upcoming milestone release, Alpha-2 next week.
<astraljava> But we should talk about that later this meeting, not strictly a QA thing. 
<astraljava> ..
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> astraljava: so you're done with QA for now?
<astraljava> Yep, that's what the '..' is there for. :)
<ochosi> ok :)
<ochosi> just wanted to make sure
<ochosi> #topic Marketing, Promotion
<ochosi> pleia2: ?
<pleia2> #info knome mentioned it in passing last week, but we have a LinkedIn Xubuntu Users group now which is linked on the website and marketing page (with contact info for admins): http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Xubuntu-Users-4058113
<pleia2> #info I have some stickers to give away, but I'm going to blog about that on my personal blog and keep the "how to make stickers" stuff on the Products page
<pleia2> this week I'm going to review our "Define the Xubuntu target audience" on our /Marketing page to better define that as *marketing* target audience (broader target audience is addressed in the strat document
<pleia2> ^^ you can action me
<pleia2> that's pretty much it
<pleia2> ..
<ochosi> #action pleia2 to review "target audience" as "marketing target audience" on the Marketing page
<meetingology> ACTION: pleia2 to review "target audience" as "marketing target audience" on the Marketing page
<ochosi> #topic Artwork
<ochosi> as you know i've reworked parts of our default theme
<ochosi> #info Greybird has been reworked and a blog post on the website has informed people about some of the changes
<ochosi> #info Our icon-theme will also need a few tweaks, but we'll have to wait for our first (alpha) release to be able to test
<ochosi> astraljava: in fact this is something we could've discussed in QA, it would be great if people could also report missing icons or theme-bugs
<pleia2> is there anything we can add to the /Long test this cycle to specifically target some of the changes?
<ochosi> you mean the greybird-changes?
<pleia2> yeah
<ochosi> not really. if anything, it'll be more robust with the bright menus
<ochosi> the dark menus were a troublemaker from the beginning...
 * pleia2 nods
<astraljava> Bugs can be filed as usual, and reported on ISO testing as well, nothing special there.
<ochosi> but there could again be changes in gtk3 or the unico-engine which might trigger bugs
<ochosi> yeah, i agree
<ochosi> i just wanted to make people more aware that visual glitches are also bugs :)
<pleia2> sure, just wondering if there is anything in particular we'll need to draw attention to in the testcase
<pleia2> yeah
<ochosi> tbh i haven't thought about it enough, it was more an idea just now
<ochosi> bluesabre did quite a lot of those small bug-reports for visual glitches last release. very useful stuff for me
<ochosi> maybe it's just the attention to visual detail
<ochosi> i'd say the panel, the menus and the desktop are the three first impressions
<bluesabre> (I figured it was just annoying) :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: hehe, no seriously, it was really helpful
<ochosi> bluesabre: what would you draw attention to specifically for testers?
<ochosi> anyway, we can also discuss that after the meeting
<ochosi> no rush
<ochosi> skipping ahead...
<ochosi> #topic General updates
<ochosi> any more updates anyone?
<bluesabre> I guess I should mention that anybody who wants to do translation work could have a look at the catfish update.
<ochosi> yup
<bluesabre> lp:catfish-search
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> please use a leading #info or #link
<ochosi> that way it'll get in the minutes
<ochosi> what do you think about sending an email to the ML with a call for translations?
<bluesabre> Sure, where do I email that to?
<ochosi> i guess both the -devel and the -users list
<bluesabre> #info Anyone who is interested in translation work, we need new translations for lp:catfish-search
<bluesabre> #link https://launchpad.net/catfish-search
<ochosi> #action bluesabre to send email to our MLs calling for translations for lp:catfish-search
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre to send email to our MLs calling for translations for lp:catfish-search
<ochosi> any more updates?
<Unit193> Not in catfish-gtk3 anymore?
<ochosi> Unit193: no, that was a private branch
<ochosi> we made it a real launchpad-project now
<ochosi> so it can supersede current catfish properly
<Unit193> Missed that part, could be why no updates. :P
<ochosi> ok, let's skip ahead again
<ochosi> #topic Announcements
<ochosi> #info there's a review underway of the Xubuntu Strategy Document
<ochosi> #info An email has been sent by knome to the ML
<ochosi> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008253.html
<ochosi> #info The community is asked to give feedback on the review
<ochosi> any other announcements?
<ochosi> pleia2, astraljava ?
<pleia2> nope
<astraljava> Nothing from me.
<Unit193> I'd assume the settings manager blueprint will be looked at later?
<ochosi> Unit193: do you need guidance/feedback for that or anything?
<astraljava> Probably skip to the next item on the agenda, anyway.
<Unit193> Just if I'm missing any programs, just trying to follow process?
<ochosi> Unit193: ok, we can look at it later if you want
<ochosi> two more updates
<ochosi> #info mr_pouit's work-items will have to be re-distributed, he'll be busy with RL during most of this cycle
<ochosi> #info astraljava will take a look at improving xfce4-display dialog this weekend
<ochosi> #info madnick is in process of forking unity-greeter as "xubuntu-greeter", which means we'll (hopefully) have a fully-fledged greeter for 12.10
<ochosi> (actually those were three)
<ochosi> #topic New and emerging items
<astraljava> o/
<ochosi> astraljava: shoot
<astraljava> This is the spot I want to use for Alpha-2 talk.
<ochosi> sure
<ochosi> go ahead
<astraljava> #info Alpha-2 milestones is during next week. Releases are always on Thursdays here in the *buntu-land. I'm gonna need to send a decision to the release meeting this Friday.
<astraljava> hobgoblin: You have been doing most of the testing. What is your feeling about the quality of the present images?
<hobgoblin> mostly good imo
<hobgoblin> the only bug I found which really annoyed me was the no partitions showing in thunar/usb's not mounting 
<hobgoblin> the who bug is sorted I think
<ochosi> the "who bug"?
<hobgoblin> other than that - they all seem to be fine for me 
<hobgoblin> I have no users on my system - a lightdm bug I believe
<hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/870297
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 870297 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "Lightdm logins not being logged in wtmp" [High,Triaged]
<hobgoblin> that one
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> yeah, it's marked as fix committed, might take a bit until it lands
<hobgoblin> indeed
<ochosi> (but it also affects ubuntu)
<ochosi> (so maybe it won't take that long)
<hobgoblin> :)
<pleia2> I can try to do a daily test before friday too
<ochosi> astraljava: are there any downsides to releasing an alpha-2?
<pleia2> then we should start getting some release notes together
<astraljava> In any case, that bug won't affect to normal usage and releasability.
<hobgoblin> I'll manage to do some more before Friday too 
<astraljava> ochosi: Not really, other than the slight overhead which pleia2 just mentioned.
<ochosi> pleia2: ok, actually now i have an icon-thing i'd like testers to look at in 12.10aÂ²
<ochosi> gtk3 introduced symbolic-icons
<astraljava> ochosi: And of course maybe the increased traffic on support channels. :)
<ochosi> we already support them, but gtk3 apps might've switched even more of their icons to symbolic ones
<ochosi> so it would be great if people could look for broken icons in our gtk3 apps
<astraljava> But we're moving away from the topic here a little. Do we, as the team, support releasing the Alpha-2?
<ochosi> (evince,abiword,etc.)
<ochosi> astraljava: +1
<astraljava> pleia2: Are you free to do some release note writing with me and knome?
<bluesabre> Sweet, broken icons
<pleia2> astraljava: yep
<astraljava> Okay, then I guess we can release.
<ochosi> nice
<astraljava> #info The team decides to release Alpha-2
<astraljava> #action astraljava, pleia2, knome to write release notes
<meetingology> ACTION: astraljava, pleia2, knome to write release notes
<astraljava> ..
<bluesabre> Next Thursday is going to be fun
<ochosi> ok, what about the next meeting? same time next week?
<astraljava> +1
<bluesabre> +1
<ochosi> (oh, actually i just see in my calendar now that it probably won't be possible for me to attend :( )
<ochosi> astraljava: then you'll get your chance to chair ;)
<astraljava> ACK
<hobgoblin> :)
<ochosi> i just see now that you voted for bi-weekly meetings last time?
<astraljava> Yes, but today was special due to Alpha-2 next week.
<pleia2> having a meeting the day before alpha2 is probably good
<ochosi> and next time will be special due to the same reason i guess :)
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> ok
<pleia2> I'll add it to the calendar
<hobgoblin> lot's of special reasons then 
<ochosi> #info Next Xubuntu community meeting at 27th of June, at 15UTC
<ochosi> pleia2: thanks
<astraljava> Well, technically next week falls into the schedule. Milestones cause special events.
<ochosi> righty, i guess that was it
<ochosi> thanks for your attendance everyone!
<ochosi> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 20 16:03:36 2012 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2012/xubuntu-devel.2012-06-20-15.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2012/xubuntu-devel.2012-06-20-15.03.html
<Unit193> ochosi, pleia2: Danke.
<astraljava> Thanks for chairing, ochosi, others for participating!
<ochosi> yw :)
<hobgoblin> ty ochosi 
<pleia2> I can toss the minutes up on the meeting page in a bit if you'd like
<ochosi> pleia2: that'd be pretty great, cause i have to run in a few mins
<astraljava> Just a small reminder, I know we have a very relaxed policy here on this channel, but let's try to keep chit-chat to a minimum during the meetings. Also, sticking to the topic is highly appreciated.
<ochosi> +1
<ochosi> and sry for drifting off a bit before :)
<astraljava> It's fine. :) Like I said, let's keep it to a minimum. :)
 * astraljava doesn't intend to make these like the kernel team's...
<ochosi> bluesabre: if one of us gets to test alpha2 we should look at gtk3 apps to find broken icons
<ochosi> bluesabre: like the two icons in calculator you found in 12.04
<bluesabre> I will definitely check that out.
<ochosi> i think gtk2 apps should mostly be fine
<bluesabre> Missing icons are the easiest bugs to find and log :)
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> if you have suggestions to improve icons in USC that'd also be welcome
<ochosi> anyway, i gotta go now
<ochosi> prolly bbl though
<bluesabre> k, seeya
<ochosi> yup, seeya!
<knome> pleia2, thanks for putting the minutes up :)
<ochosi> Unit193: sorry i couldn't be hear again earlier. you wanted to follow up on the settings-editor?
<ochosi> err -manager
<Unit193> Well, just that I was told it's supposed to be in some meeting, to gather more and weed out others.
<knome> ochosi, Unit193: let's add that to the next meeting agenda
<Unit193> Bokadoke.
<ochosi> yup
<knome> done.
<ochosi> but we can still talk about it now
<ochosi> GridCube: ping
<knome> hehe, sure
<Unit193> Whatever you say, doc.
<knome> pleia2, ochosi, astraljava: btw, there is a tool to create a new "minutes" page with the template we're using at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/
<ochosi> GridCube: we should talk about your music-player spec. i added a few comments to the "user-experience" part of the spec. please get back to me as soon as you've read it
<ochosi> knome: oh, nice
<ochosi> Unit193: would you mind moving the categories of the items next to each item in brackets? (settings-man spec)
<ochosi> next we'd have to re-categorize them under the four categories that exist in settings-man
<ochosi> but keeping the info of the menu-category might be useful
<knome> huh?
<knome> you mean a table?
<knome> i just reverted a table ;)
<ochosi> yeah, but a table makes more sense imo
<knome> feel free to move to a table (again), but please incorporate the alternating row-colors
<Unit193> ochosi: Design isn't exactly my thing, I had it table style, and knome put it in a different one, I don't care really at all how it's placed on there.
<ochosi> Unit193: ^ ? ;)
<knome> ochosi, there was a table, but i changed it to the list we have now
<knome> (the table didn't have alt row-colors)
<Unit193> (Table wasn't the best)
<knome> well, it was like any plain table in the ubuntu wiki
<knome> that is, totally not readable
<ochosi> Unit193: could you copy the table-style from the roadmap page?
<knome> or the top of the spec page
<knome> that's the same style
<Unit193> knome: ^^
<knome> wut? :P
<knome> i can do that
<knome> just keep your sticky fingers out of the page for a sec then
<knome> :)
<knome> ochosi, what are the 4 categories you will have?
<ochosi> personal, hardware, system, other
<ochosi> they're hardcoded in settings-manager
<knome> but we have those already on the page?
<knome> look at it you lazy man!
 * Unit193 added
<knome> but i can sure make a table out of them, if you want.
<knome> but i think this works well too
<knome> or?
<ochosi> knome: hey â i'm currently chatting with quentin about gmb so i'm distracted!! :)
<knome> so are you satisfied with the current layout, or do you really really want the table?
<ochosi> give me a minute
<ochosi> i still want a table, because: i'd love to have additional info for each item
<knome> aha
<knome> like?
<ochosi> e.g. what category they usually appear in in our menu
<knome> does a separate table under each heading work for you?
<knome> changes done and committed
<ochosi> this is exactly how i would've wanted it :) thanks!
<ochosi> Unit193: could you re-add the menu-categories?
<knome> ok, good
<knome> huh, was those in?
<knome> i must've missed that.
<knome> oh, right.
<ochosi> that was before Unit193 changed the categories .)
<knome> heh
<ochosi> i think it helps to discuss where each item belongs
<Unit193> Quite, I just put them there for now, I'm not attached to any (though, jockey makes sense)
<Unit193> Users, and *maybe* time as well.
<Unit193> Well, anything I can help with?
<ochosi> yeag
<ochosi> i thought you'd re-add the menu-categories into the table :p
<Unit193> They are already in category, no need to double that...
<ochosi> but they are in different categories
<ochosi> atm they're in the pre-defined settings-manager categories
<ochosi> i'd like to have the menu-category/categories in the table
<ochosi> so that we know how the app-developers categorize their own apps
<ochosi> e.g. i'd argue that language-support should go into "system"
<Unit193> And I'd be ok with that, but I didn't have those before, and I'm pretty sure I know what you mean.
<ochosi> ah ok
<ochosi> would you mind adding them though? :}
<Unit193> I don't have all of those, but I may feel like adding the others, if it'd actually help.
<Unit193> Categories=GNOME;X-XFCE;GTK;Settings;DesktopSettings;X-GNOME-Settings-Panel;X-GNOME-PersonalSettings    For example would be personal or settings?
<ochosi> you can make it easier on yourself and just put down the category the item appears in in our menu
<ochosi> (at least if the category in our menu makes sense)
<GridCube> :) ochosi pong
<GridCube> removed the paragraph
<knome> hey GridCube 
<GridCube> sup mister k
<knome> (me is partly unfocused, but will follow and answer questions)
<ochosi> ok :)
<ochosi> GridCube: i read your spec quite thoroughly today â for the first time though, i have to admit
<ochosi> that's why i added the comments, because you said you wanted feedback on it
<GridCube> mmhm, it read what was commented, it made lots of sense
<GridCube> :D yes thanks
<ochosi> but i also quickly want to give more feedback in a structured way
<ochosi> first off:
<ochosi> yw :)
<ochosi> i really care about our default music player, that's why i pushed gmusicbrowser, because it's very customizable and i worked hard with knome on what we thought would be the smoothest user experience
<ochosi> so your feedback is really valuable
<GridCube> I understand
<ochosi> i think one very important factor when looking at our default apps (apart from features) is how well they are maintained
<ochosi> this hasn't really been talked about enough
<ochosi> just a random example:
<GridCube> mmhm yes, i agree with that 
<ochosi> "listen" has had its latest release 2010
<ochosi> that doesn't mean that it's bad software
<ochosi> but it means that if we want a bug fixed, we might have to do it ourselves
<ochosi> and we don't really have the dev-manpower
<ochosi> i'm also just a stupid pixel-pusher, so shame on me :}
<ochosi>  â i just realized i'm telling you why we chose gmb initially â
<ochosi> just stop me if i bore you ;)
<ochosi> one concern that was raised wrt gmusicbrowser as default player was maintenance
<ochosi> gmusicbrowser is driven by mainly one person
<ochosi> so if he stops, it's unmaintained
<GridCube> ochosi, I don't think that gmb is bad, its not that, it has all the things we need, and is maintained, the thing is the user experience i've had, and the people I've converted agree, is that gmb is scary complicated
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> actually the point i wanted to get to in the end is this: (i think we can skip ahead that far)
<ochosi> we can decide now to either (1) try to improve gmb based on your feedback
<ochosi> or (2) try to skim through all kinds of music players out there and try to find a better one
<ochosi> so far most of what i've read in your spec seems manageable
<GridCube> i think that we could try to make gmb work
<ochosi> and i have a really good contact to gmb's developer
<ochosi> (actually i was talking with him a minute ago :) )
<ochosi> ok, then let's try to improve it to a point where everyone is happy and if that doesn't work look for alternatives
<GridCube> In fact, i think that 63,38% off all the problems with gmb would go away if clicking on something on the music library sended it to the queue list
<GridCube> and never, ever, play from the music library itself
<ochosi> really?
<GridCube> yes
<GridCube> thats what makes gmb confusing
<ochosi> i mean that change is actually quite simple to do, but i would find it very confusing :)
<GridCube> you dont know where the music is playing from
<ochosi> i think we should dig into that more
<ochosi> btw, i'll quickly fix the problem with the "Add Music" ;)
<GridCube> :D great
<ochosi> i just have to change a single digit in our layout
<ochosi> do you want to test it?
<GridCube> im in windows now, my brother is rendering on autocad
<ochosi> oh right
<ochosi> np then
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> now really, if searching music would just simply search music, and sending the search to the playing list where something automatic then i think that gmb would do just fine
<GridCube> you search, you find a disc/artist/genre/singlefile you select it and send it to the queue, then it plays
<GridCube> the way gmb does it now, its just weird
<ochosi> currently "send it to the queue" == double-middle-click with your mouse | or: right-click and say "enqueue"
<ochosi> if you double-click it, it plays the song
<GridCube> O_o how you middle clic on a netbook?
<GridCube> or on a touchscreen? or where is told that?
<ochosi> middle-click can always be emulated by hitting both mouse-buttons at the same time
<GridCube> nope, not anymore
<GridCube> that was disabled
<ochosi> what was disabled?
<ochosi> left-click + right-click == middle-click?
<GridCube> mmhm
<GridCube> yes
<ochosi> i mean it's too obscure for everyone to find out
<ochosi> i just wanted to tell you this so you have a better time using gmb for now :)
<ochosi> maybe it helps if i quickly explain the library concept in gmb
 * GridCube is just using clementine lately, its pretty damn good
<GridCube> sure do :)
<ochosi> sooo
<ochosi> you have 3 views
<ochosi> simple-list, treeview (with albumcovers) and mosaic (only album-covers, with songlist on middle-click)
<ochosi> those 3 work the same way
<ochosi> they're just different ways of using the same resource the same way
<GridCube> confusing, but ok
<ochosi> ok, let's stop here, why is that confusing?
<GridCube> i mean, what use does it have to have the mosaic option? how users know what is being played?
<GridCube> you double clic on an album cover and then...? 
<GridCube> you have no idea what is being played
<ochosi> if you double-click an album, that album will be played back
<ochosi> that's all
<knome> (added to queue)
<GridCube> oooo i see, ok
<ochosi> if you middle-click, you can see the list of songs in that album
<ochosi> if you right-click, you can execute tons of actions on that album
<ochosi> it's just intended as a simple way of accessing a full album, instead of having to mark all songs in an album in a list by hand
<GridCube> have to admit i never used that, I was too frustrated toward gmb at that point to even try to understand
<ochosi> (which can be annoying)
<ochosi> ok, so the 3 views are clear?
<GridCube> yes I think so
<ochosi> ok, then let's proceed
<ochosi> the views all show the whole libaray
<ochosi> library
<GridCube> mmhm
<ochosi> unless you use e.g. the search-box in the top-right corner to filter the results
<ochosi> by default, it _should_ (and we should look into that if it doesn't) sort and group your music well enough (if the tags are ok) and play back the songs in the order that is displayed
<GridCube> (it doesnt)
<ochosi> so if you double-click a song, e.g. song nr.2 in your favorite album, the next song should be song nr.3
<ochosi> now, gmb has a feature that many players don't have and that can be confusing at first, but extremely useful once you wrapped your head around it:
<ochosi> sort-order and play-order are independant
<ochosi> so you can e.g. sort your music by "history" (i.e. when did i lasten listen to this album)
<ochosi> while playing it back alphabetically
<ochosi> or the other way round
<ochosi> obviously you can also "sync" play-order and sort-order
<GridCube> O_o
<ochosi> does that make sense so far?
<GridCube> that makes no sense at all
<ochosi> ok, where's the problem?
<GridCube> so it plays differently from how you see it?
<ochosi> (just wondering)
<GridCube> you sort things a way, but it still plays however it feels like playing, unless you know how to say it NO play it like this
<GridCube> ?
<ochosi> it doesn't do that by default
<GridCube> mmm
<ochosi> but when you change the sort-order (e.g. by clicking a column-header) that doesn't mean that the play-order is also changed accordingly
<GridCube> why?
<ochosi> (although theoretically we could make it work that way)
<GridCube> in any case, this all takes that, it. still. plays. from. the. media. library.
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> it does
<GridCube> it should not never ever do that
<ochosi> i'm not sure i understand?
<ochosi> btw, have you ever used itunes?
<GridCube> not really
<GridCube> maybe once a long time ago
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> what players have you used?
<GridCube> in windows, winamp, foobar2000, xmplayer, and many other i dont remember now
<ochosi> ok
<GridCube> in linux, audacious, exaile, clementine, rhythmbox, xmmp, decibel, and many others
<ochosi> wow, that's quite a list
<ochosi> ok, let's stick with exaile for a second
<GridCube> ok
<ochosi> if you double-click a song in a list in exaile it plays it back to you
<ochosi> the next song will be the one underneath the one you clicked before
<GridCube> mmh yes
<ochosi> if you set the playmode to "shuffle", it plays all songs in the list in random order
<GridCube> but, if you search a song/artist/genre on exaile, it will search, then on double clic it will send the files you, and that means the user, just choosed to the playing list
<GridCube> it will NOT play from the music library
<GridCube> again, if you choose to shufle you shuffle the files YOU choosed, NOT everything on your media library
<ochosi> ok
<GridCube> :)
<ochosi> a quick hint
<ochosi> you can "lock" artists or albums
<GridCube> lock?
<ochosi> yeah, that means only songs from that album/artist will be played back
<GridCube> mmhm
<ochosi> no matter what playmode you choose
<ochosi> it's very easy/intuitive to activate, once you've found it :)
<GridCube> if it needs finding... its not
<ochosi> in the playback bar (that is very interactive btw), you see a structure like this:
<ochosi> "song-title" << "album" << "artist"
<ochosi> if you hover the "<<" it shows a lock
<GridCube> I see
<ochosi> if you click the "<<" it displays the lock, so...
<GridCube> ochosi, let me stop you for a moment here
<ochosi> "song-title" $lock "album" << "artist" would mean only songs from that album are played back
<ochosi> ok
<GridCube> and please dont take this as like i am mad or something, im just trying to pass my sensations to you so you see what happens through my mind right now
<ochosi> sure, go ahead
<GridCube> good gods
<GridCube> ok here it goes again
<GridCube> ochosi, im not against all the shiny things that gmb has
<GridCube> thats all fine
<GridCube> but most people i know. all the people who i've introduced to xubuntu or linux, just dont understand gmb
<GridCube> and believe it or not, thats the main reason they ask me to take it away and reinstall windows
<knome> if we want to "fix" gmb, you have to specify what's confusing the users
<GridCube> i tell them theres anothers players, but they are just tired of trying to uderstand all the quirkiness of them
<GridCube> knome, i will scream for a moment here: IT SHOULD NOT PLAY FROM THE MEDIA LIBRARY
<knome> doesn't that imply other players have quirks too, not just gmb? :)
<GridCube> :P well yes
<knome> GridCube, please calm down
<GridCube> knome, i am, i just warned you, you know :P
<knome> well, does that justify anything?
<knome> "warning; i'll kill you in the next 15 secs"
<knome> "I TOLD YOU!"
<knome> :)
<GridCube> not really, but i think i've made that clear before
<knome> yes
<knome> so did you get some things solved out today with ochosi ?
<GridCube> most , if not all, the problems with gmb would go away if it just send your playlist to the queue list
<knome> ochosi, wasn't there that "playlist mode" ?
<GridCube> all the other stuff, its nice and all, but they all depend on the player using the damn media library as playlist
<ochosi> knome: that wouldn't really solve what GridCube's problem seems to be (from my perspective)
<GridCube> ochosi, it would really do, because you would know from where the music is being played
<knome> GridCube, note that "playlist mode" might not mean what you are expecting.
<GridCube> knome, its ok
<GridCube> again, im just trying to send to you how my mind feels witha ll this
<GridCube> i understand you worked on it, so you understand it better
<knome> tbh, we don't need "mind" we need "brain"
<knome> i mean not "mind feel" but "mind think" ;)
<GridCube> buf if you give gmb to an user that just wants to play musics, they wont want to learn all the gazillion options gmb can have, they just want to be able to search in their music, and play just what they want
<GridCube> :) I understood knome 
<ochosi> GridCube: just a simple suggestion, have you tried any of the other layouts gmb features?
<ochosi> they don't only look differently, they also work differently
<GridCube> yes, i've noticed
<ochosi> it'd be nice to see whether e.g. exaile works for you
<ochosi> it has a "playlist" tab that does what you want (from what i understood)
<GridCube> again, I havent really tried them, i dont see the point on using gmb to emulate exaile when i could simply use exaile
<ochosi> it's not just emulating exaile
<ochosi> it still has all the customizability of exaile plus the features of gmusicbrowser
<ochosi> gah
<ochosi> i mean: the layout of exaile
<ochosi> i'm getting tired
<GridCube> ochosi, but the features of gmb are the things i don't like about gmb
<GridCube> :/
<ochosi> ok, i'm too tired for this today, let's continue some other time
<GridCube> ok don't worry, i think im not making any sense anyway
<knome> i think the next thing we need to do is to gather a list of features we really need for the default media player
<knome> and forget gmb, exaile and everything else
<knome> just thing what we want
<knome> *think
<GridCube> ok
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> lets do that
<knome> this should have been the first step anyway
<ochosi> knome: so you consider "improving gmb" failed?
<knome> well, i'm quite tired too
<ochosi> just asking because those seemed to be the two options
<GridCube> knome, i didnt meant now
<knome> ochosi, i'm not sure if you two can sort it out ;)
<knome> i'm all in for "fixing gmb"
<GridCube> ochosi, I don't think so, again if gmb would send what you searched to a now playing list, most issues with it would go away
<ochosi> GridCube: some layouts do that
<knome> ochosi, well, if you have time to continue on the issue
<knome> i'm not too much help, since i don't know the playlist-stuff too well
<GridCube> but that option doesnt seem an option because theres a gazillion things that apparently you can only do while on the playing media library mode, as you where explaining me earlier
<knome> just note that we don't have unlimited time, if we want to do the change this cycle
<ochosi> tbh i think now is the worst of times to decide on whether to continue or not, it's getting late and at least 2/3 are tired
<knome> ^ we need to test the new player too if we want to switch
<knome> i don't need an answer now
<knome> just saying that you realize the reality too ;)
<GridCube> ochosi, i agree, lets talk again on saturday or sunday ok?
<ochosi> GridCube: i'm away on the weekend
<GridCube> ok
<ochosi> next week then
<GridCube> no problem
<GridCube> as you wish, or if you see me online just ping me
<ochosi> but really, it is necessary that you give gmb a second chance if you don't just want to search for a new default player
<knome> can you schedule it on the ML so others can possible take part too?
<GridCube> sure
<ochosi> knome: no, i think we should first try to settle it between us, if that works we can include others
<ochosi> if it doesn't, you guys can search for a new player :)
<knome> ochosi, well, that's what i meant, but please do it so others will know when you're working on it
<ochosi> GridCube: and by giving it a second chance i mean: actively trying it out again and trying to get it to act as you want. because i'm _certain_ there's a layout that does what you want
<GridCube> ochosi, knome, in any case, thanks for all the problems you are taking with this, i really think is a very important thing when introducing new people to xubuntu(or all the linuxverse)
<GridCube> ochosi, will do
<ochosi> GridCube: then i can maybe understand your points better
<ochosi> and we get a step closer to sorting this
<GridCube> ok :)
<ochosi> also: keep in mind that if you understand gmb better, you'll be better at showing it to other people ;)
<GridCube> :P
<ochosi> i'm not saying this because i'm blaming anything on you
<knome> also, you kind of have to know gmb well to be able to compare it too
<ochosi> i'm just saying it, because so far we haven't had _any_ complaints about gmusicbrowser in that respect from any review
<GridCube> i didnt take any blame (im not the only xubuntu user that first of all purges gmb away anyway)
<ochosi> knome: +1
<ochosi> i also purge away quite a few of our default apps
<ochosi> but i don't moan about it because i know that many others cope well with it
<ochosi> e.g. thunderbird :}
<GridCube> yes, but if you dont complain, then stuff never changes
<GridCube> :P
<GridCube> its like politics
<knome> true.
<knome> otoh, we should be making best default choices for *our users* not the developers
<ochosi> exactly, otherwise i'd have strived to push claws-mail as default mail client far harder :p
<knome> (that's a bit weird in a way, to choose something that's not ideal for you, but.. yeah)
<knome> though i'm quite happy with the current default apps
<ochosi> yeah, it's a bit weird, but it has to be that way
<ochosi> yeah, overall i'm happy too
<ochosi> i think the distro works well
<GridCube> (again, if you are involved on something that makes it easier for you, that doesnt means other would find it as easy or "obvious"
<ochosi> i have enough friends i "maintain"
<knome> GridCube, of course.
<ochosi> GridCube: nobody said that :)
<GridCube> i remember windows 98, when you started it a HUGE arrow appeared ont he "panel" area pointing to the Star button and said "Click here to start using your programs"
<GridCube> it was dumb easy to see it, but hey, people like that
<ochosi> yeah, that's why we don't replace thunderbird with claws-mail
<GridCube> its not that people is dumb, but a default program should be thinked for dumb people
<GridCube> huge arrows, pointing to the places you should see, and things happening with your knowledge
<GridCube> if you want fancier stuff, you will search for them
<GridCube> you could enable the "dumb skin" for gmb, and then the "pro skin" and add all those stuffs like playing from the media library and whatnot
<ochosi> GridCube: darn it that is exactly what i implied by "try other layouts like exaile" !!! :D
<GridCube> yes, but i have to dumb it up, instead of smart it up!
<GridCube> :D
<knome> the exaile layout -> gmb for dummies
<knome> GridCube, well, that's because you are.. nevermind. :)
<knome> (just kidding)
<GridCube> :P i know
<ochosi> yeah, there are a few more layouts that are "for dummies"
<knome> ochosi, but maybe that's a good idea. do a *REALLY SIMPLE* layout.
<ochosi> GridCube: ok, final suggestion: you test layouts of gmb _until_ you find one that works ok for you, then we talk again about how to (1) either switch to a different layout by default or (2) improve the current default
<GridCube> yes, but they are not the default ochosi, you have to thinker with the program to find them out, if you are already frustrated with a program, and you just want to listen music, you wont go around searching for "more" options
<ochosi> arrrrrr
<ochosi> we can set the default to whatever we want
<GridCube> ok
<ochosi> so all of them are the potential default look of gmb :)
<GridCube> :)
<ochosi> you should've seen it before we started working on it
<GridCube> ok, that makes sense
<ochosi> it was a complete mess
<ochosi> no-one used it because it was rather cluttered
<ochosi> it was a process of ~half a year to get to that default layout
<GridCube> I understand
<ochosi> at the time it took me approx 1hour to make a layout in gmusicbrowser that would work and look like your favorite player
<ochosi> but the cool thing about it isn't mimicking other players
<ochosi> it's that you can easily go beyond that
<GridCube> ochosi, yes, again i understand that, it might go the same way foobar2000 people like to reshape their players and what not, costumization is a huge plus, but then again, most people is just happy with a music player that just plays music
<knome> well, gmb just plays music.
<knome> just not the way you want
 * knome hides
<GridCube> :P
<GridCube> knome meant to say: just not the one you want
 * GridCube hides
<knome> well, you said "a music player that just plays music" ...
<knome> not "... plays the music you want"
 * GridCube though that was implied
<GridCube> maybe thats where we cant connect
<knome> definitely not.
<knome> well, gmb plays the music i want, when i add it to the queue. problem solved :)
<GridCube> a music player that doesnt play the music you want to hear
<GridCube> thats should be the tagline for gmb then
<knome> i'm thinking you are being unfair again
<knome> that's totally not constructive
<knome> with that attitude, you're never going to finish the spec
<GridCube> knome, but again, you play something, go to shuffle, and its not playing what you searched anymore...
<GridCube> :( i don't see why thats so hard to understand
<knome> it's not hard to understand
<knome> i understand it
<knome> but there is other ways to achieve the same thing
<knome> but you are just flaming against gmb
<knome> i understand your point very well - but you don't want to understand what we are saying with ochosi 
<GridCube> knome, i am not, im just frustrated at it, because it does things without saying why, it plays music you dont see...
<knome> yes, you are
<GridCube> knome, no, sincerily i dont see
<knome> 02:32  GridCube: a music player that doesnt play the music you want to hear
<knome> 02:33  GridCube: thats should be the tagline for gmb then
<knome> what is that if not flaming?
<GridCube> knome, yes, that was a joke
<knome> with all respect, do you think that is going to take you anywhere?
<GridCube> no, not really
<knome> the thing is; you can make gmb play the music you want, it's just not happening as you are expecting
<knome> i understand that this is making you frustrated, but i don't think it justifies for the jokes and other negative comments about gmb
<GridCube> well... yes?
<GridCube> knome, it does things behind you, it plays music you dont see, thats the problem, thats the major problem, if it would simply send what is playing to a now playing list, everything else would not matter
<GridCube> knome, im trying to explain myself in the most constructive way here
<knome> yeah, i understand that
<knome> i'm just wondering why nobody else has given us negative feedback on that issue?
<GridCube> they simply use another player?
<knome> it might very well be the showkiller for you, but is it really for the majority of our users?
<GridCube> knome, i can sincerily say i dont know
<ochosi> leave it be for now
<ochosi> i mean this discussion
<ochosi> we can talk after the weekend, after GridCube tried other layouts etc
<knome> yup.
<GridCube> ok
<GridCube> :)
<knome> GridCube, just try to cut down on the jokes when we're disussing this matter - because i don't always know if you are serious or not
<GridCube> ok
<ochosi> (or add enough smilies)
<GridCube> my bad
<knome> that's the downside of irc, i can't really observe your expressions
<ochosi> the upside is: i don't have to see your face! :D
<GridCube> i could send a mail to the mailing list in users, asking for feedback of users on gmb asking if they use it or not?
<GridCube> (i've seen that -users do have a pretty active base)
<ochosi> if you formulate it nicely and _very_ neutral, then i can imagine that would work
<GridCube> ok, will try that
<ochosi> you can also first send it to knome and he can tell you whether there's "a tone" :)
<knome> that works
<knome> i can proofread it if you send it to me before monday
<knome> i'm possibly away from mon-thu next week (so probably not at the meeting, again)
<GridCube> knome, ill pm you now :)
<knome> k
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-21
<knome> ochosi, http://typewith.me/p/Ew1RtC2xCS
<GridCube> :( it not loading
<knome> yeah, it just went mad.
<knome> let's wait some hours
<knome> it'll surely come back
<knome> if not, i'll type it again
<knome> but not with ".me"
<GridCube> :)
 * knome just ate some *wonderful* bread
 * knome burrrrps
<knome> oopsie
<astraljava> knome: Good to know, but are there instructions on how to use it? It's not very... obvious. :)
<astraljava> knome: Also, can you fill in for today's QA roundtable? I'm most likely unavailable, though not 100% certain, yet.
<astraljava> knome: Oh, and one more thing. Could you please refrain from burping into the channel. The stench is unbearable, and stays for ages.
<knome> astraljava, can you remind me - to use what?
<knome> astraljava, umgh, what time was the QA roundtable? was that 19 local?
<knome> astraljava, and; no.
<knome> :P
<astraljava> :D
<astraljava> The minutes-miracle-worker.
<knome> aha. well, you still need to be able to use common sense. to use it, just put in a date, like 2012-06-21, and press create
<knome> it will forward you to an "edit page" view, with all the headers in place
<knome> i could possibly add some examples on how content is supposed to be formatted under those, if it'd help
<astraljava> Nah. It just seemed like all you needed to do was add some data (yes, a date), and voilÃ¡, there you have it. No indication of it being a multi-step process. Fine, I'll work it out next week. :)
<knome> no, it's not that easy, at least yet.
<knome> we'd need to get AlanBell convinced to fix and push changes to meetingology, so it could produce exactly the output we want
<knome> at that point, i don't think we would be far from meetingology posting the minutes automatically
<knome> meetingology isn't perfect as it is by any means really; it doesn't even format the lists for items in meetings correctly :(
<meetingology> knome: Error: "isn't" is not a valid command.
<astraljava> Yeah well, I suppose if we file bugs, we're more than welcome to go code it ourselves, too. *smirk* 
<knome> i'll talk with AlanBell now
<knome> astraljava, /join #meetingology
<knome> astraljava, i'm assuming you have followed the discussion on ubuntu-release ML?
<knome> anyway, uh, i'm not completely sure if i can make the QA roundtable either
<knome> but i'll try
<astraljava> knome: I don't think I have, what discussion might you be referring to?
<knome> the "milestones without freezes", especially the last mails between scottk and jono
<knome> anyway, i'm off
<knome> see you later, and let's follow-up on that ^ discussion
<astraljava> Ok.
<ochosi> madnick: ping
<astraljava> knome: Ok, I read a few emails on that thread. I'm thinking someone's doing a very big thing out of nothing. I don't particularly care what vanilla decides to do. We can try to accommodate whatever process they're choosing, if we can't, then we do things Our Wayâ¢.
<astraljava> I don't really feel like partaking in that conversation, unless something really dramatically ticks me off. So far, hasn't.
<knome> well, did you read the last comments?
<knome> looks like there's going to be no support for the community really.
<knome> at least if jono gets to decide
<knome> so it's back to "mind your own business" -mode, now that i'm not saying he's not awesome.
<knome> ochosi, http://typewith.me/p/Ew1RtC2xCS seems to work again.
<ochosi> madnick: where's that key of yours and the lp-push! :)
<ochosi> bbl
<knome> hf
<astraljava> Err... no, that's how it's always been. Nick throws these QA community meetings, where he coordinates those flavors that want assistance in theirs. But I don't think there's ever been a mandate that they have to do it.
<knome> aha
<knome> i'm thinking jono doesn't know that then
<knome> anyway
<knome> fsst
<astraljava> Let me read that message once more, to be sure I didn't miss anything. I really only glanced through, as I'm sort of busy at work anyway.
<astraljava> Just for clarification, which one let you into this understanding?
<knome> i can't remember
<knome> let me see
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-June/001409.html
<knome> the first comment;
<knome> I don't think it is unreasonable for Canonical to focus its resources
<knome> on Ubuntu as opposed to the flavors.
<knome> and;
<knome> Other people are welcome to coordinate testing
<knome> campaigns and get others interested and excited about testing, but
<knome> Nick's focus is explicitly on the Ubuntu ISOs.
<knome> well, is it really??
<astraljava> Yes, it is. Notice the word 'ISO'. He does care about others' processes, mind you.
<astraljava> But I tend to agree, how could he possibly take care of all the flavors, too?
<knome> well of course he can't, and isn't expected
<astraljava> I really see no problems here.
<knome> no, not a problem
<knome> pointing you just to make sure you are aware of this
<knome> and if you probably want to take some action :)
<astraljava> Oh ok. Yeah, to me, nothing of this comes off as a surprise. I don't (yet) get the feel that something's being taken away from us.
<knome> yup, that's true
<astraljava> Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but if Nick continues to chair (or at least somehow organize) those QA community meetings, and let's us participate (if not really direct) in the QA process (relating to tools and methods and whatnot), I'm fine.
<astraljava> pleia2: If you have time today, at 1600 UTC, there's the QA roundtable meeting which I cannot participate in, sadly. gnome wasn't sure, either. If you could, it'd rawk muchly.
<astraljava> I'm gonna go now for several hours.
<ochosi> madnick: ?
<madnick> ochosi: yeah sorry I was talking to people about production
<madnick> They closed at 4 tho :)
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> madnick: well if you have a chance to push, i'd love to push you to push! :)
<madnick> ochosi: oh, i did push
<ochosi> oh nice :)
<ochosi> i just returned to the office half an hour ago, havent checked yet
<madnick> Now I fear the wrath of people because I have no idea about the license
<ochosi> i already selected gpl3
<ochosi> because that's the license of unity-greeter
<madnick> yeah, but do we have to push license text files onto lp?
<madnick> pushed it, but it feels like a wasteful commit :P
<ochosi> madnick: i'd simply follow unity-greeter in that
<ochosi> i think that what works for them should work for us
<ochosi> anyway, please let me or knome know if you need images (like xubuntu-logo)
<madnick> ochosi: will do
<ochosi> madnick: also: we should closely monitor unity-greeter until 12.10beta or something for important changes/improvements that we could pull
<madnick> okay :)
<hobgoblin> question - if I have previously reported bugs against dailies and they are still present - note them on the tracker still? 
<hobgoblin> I assume I should
<ochosi> madnick: do you think we can make some kind of a schedule for the features on the whiteboard?
<ochosi> i mean just some kind of ETA so knome and i know when to ping/remind you ;)
<madnick> ochosi: midsummer + production meetings comming up, I mean, I will begin next week, but I don't think I will be done next friday
<ochosi> madnick: ok. well i assume that re-arranging the loginbox and replacing the logo/background will be rather easy
<ochosi> madnick: g-s-d will most likely be the tricky part, no?
<madnick> Yes, not gsd but xfsettingsd
<ochosi> yeah, i know
<ochosi> just wondering: what is gsd used for in unity-greeter?
<ochosi> i mean: what does it _do_
<ochosi> (i know it's somehow related to the top panel indicators)
<madnick> ochosi: yeah
<madnick> settings
<ochosi> k, but what kind of?
<madnick> tons, keyboard, background, xrandr, mouse
<madnick> sound
<madnick> notications, well, what isnt it used for? :)
<ochosi> yeah, but we really don't need all that in the greeter
<madnick> nope
<ochosi> we can scrape at least half of them
<madnick> dont acctually *need* any :P
<ochosi> would it be more manageable to just get rid of it in the first place, align the login-box and set the correct bg until next friday?
<madnick> sure
<ochosi> and the in a second step re-consider what we really _need_ and _want_ there
<ochosi> maybe power-management and language support wouldn't be a mistake
<ochosi> but sound-settings are really over-the-top
<madnick> ochosi: what do you mean by power management?
<madnick> Shutdown/Reboot/Sleep, or something more elaborate?
<ochosi> well firstly those things, yes
<ochosi> but secondly something like xfpm
<madnick> Those things can be done without any help from stuff such as this
<madnick> liblightdm provides those
<ochosi> i.e. that if you run out of battery and you've set xfpm to get suspend on critical battery-status...
<madnick> ochosi: so dbus?
<ochosi> i'm not sure what kind of interfaces xfpm has
<ochosi> but anyway, that is probably a bit far-fetched
<ochosi> let's go for having what we have in gtk-greeter feature-wise first
<madnick> okay
<ochosi> ok, i gotta go now
<ochosi> i'll check in with you on monday or tuesday
<ochosi> or maybe knome will
<ochosi> i definitely am away and without internet over the weekend
<madnick> okay
<madnick> :(
<madnick> Cya on monday/tue then :)
<ochosi> yup!
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> have a nice weekend and if you have questions before mon/tue ping knome ;D
<madnick> same :)
<pleia2> hm, QA roundtable is not in -meeting I guess?
<pleia2> maybe in -testing
<madnick> pleia2: Its odd because, I usually get tons of emails about that, but this week I only got Kernel (who were not attending) and Hardware
<madnick> And ours
<pleia2> I just got astraljava say "pleia2, go to this meeting, thx" :)
<madnick> Yeah, it was usually in -meeting, everytime I've been at them
<madnick> always acctually
<pleia2> the CC meeting is in an hour so maybe they were concerned about conflict
 * pleia2 shrugs
<pleia2> they seem to be doing it in -testing though :)
<madnick> pleia2: just a question
<madnick> for me it was usually on fridays
<madnick> Maybe the day is wrong?
<pleia2> I have no idea
<pleia2> they are doing some kind of meeting with a UTAH demo though
<madnick> pleia2: found it :) "20120620 People present (lines said) astraljava (37) "
<pleia2> oooh, the meeting here?
<pleia2> sorry, got confused
<madnick> pleia2: no sorry, they seem to have changed days
<madnick> Until wednesday
<madnick> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<madnick> I realize I am sorta rambling, but I have not sleept a lot this week :)
<pleia2> yeah, this must be some bonus meeting
<knome> astraljava, sorry, i couldn't attend the meeting
<knome> astraljava, was damn tired and actually i went to sleep when the meeting started
<pleia2> I idled, but couldn't pay much attention (work + CC meeting)
<knome> i'm on the log
<Unit193> I had planned on doing testing this week, but as the computer with Virtualbox (and the ISOs) has a seemingly unrecoverable partition failure, I don't think I'll be able to help with A2. :/
 * hobgoblin did one for Unit193 
<knome> Unit193, that's okay
<Unit193> Not exactly, but it'll have to do.
<astraljava> madnick: That was a different meeting. The one you were thinking of is release. This was QA roundtable. :)
<knome> astraljava, hey :)
<knome> astraljava, i got access to the testcase admin.
<astraljava> Sweet.
<knome> astraljava, you should ask balloons to add you to ~ubuntu-testcase too
<astraljava> On it.
<knome> great
<astraljava> So what, you went to sleep at 7 pm? Are you sickâ½
<astraljava> I'd understand if that was am. :D
<knome> i took 1 hour nap
<astraljava> Yeah ok. :)
<astraljava> I'm considering on whether to go to sleep or wait for the Irene Huss flick starting in 1.6 hours.
<knome> the.. what?
<astraljava> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1825823/
<knome> hmm, not very highly rated
<astraljava> Not really. But they're usually pretty good. And I'm fairly sure those ratings are very US-centric.
<knome> of course.
<astraljava> Besides, she's hawt.
<knome> well, if there's nothing scheduled for tomorrow, why not
<astraljava> There's plenty; Bookmark to ubuntustudio.org in Firefox, Implement actor / alien centering option, display settings tweak.
<astraljava> Actually, add there the Xchat default channel.
<knome> yeah, but nothing actually *scheduled*
<knome> astraljava, i suppose that's for both flavors O:)
<astraljava> I don't think I understand.
<astraljava> Well if you want.
<knome> you haven't written a minute-based timetable for you, have you
<astraljava> What makes you say that?
<knome> i know you.
<astraljava> bah
<astraljava> Whee, that rolling-release-instead-of-milestones thread is getting out of hand. I better not touch it until I've slept a little.
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-22
<pleia2> have the alt images been tested? I'm having trouble (with the image from the 21st, the tracker updated right after I downloaded it :P)
<pleia2> I'll run again on a VM tomorrow when more people are awake and I can copy the install package errors into a bug report
<astraljava> pleia2: I intend to test them as well, I'm afraid not many of the images have been tested.
<hobgoblin> astraljava: I read the QA stuff the other day - am I right in thinking that the tests I did shoudl have been fails as far as balloons is concerned
<ochosi> astraljava: how familiar are you with c/gtk?
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Yes, you are. That's why I mentioned it on the meeting; whenever a step in the testcase fails, the whole test is marked as failed.
<astraljava> ochosi: I know C better than GTK, but not a complete stranger to that one either.
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> i just have a quick question
<ochosi> look at indicator-sound's source here: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/indicator-sound/precise/view/head:/src/volume-widget.c#L101
<ochosi> that's where it sets the icons cornering the gtk-scale
<ochosi> from what i gather, it should prefer a 16px icon, because it sets GTK_ICON_SIZE_MENU
<ochosi> since our panel is 22px high, it should be possible to use different icons for the volume-indicator in the panel and the icons in the sound-menu, right?
<astraljava> Oh totally, but I need to poke around a bit to see how exactly.
 * astraljava just woke up, and had weird metaphorical dreams about his own past life
<astraljava> I shoulda known better to engage to this deeply analytical discussion with my brother last night.
<ochosi> (specifically, i want to fix this: http://imagebin.org/217441 )
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> we have the same problem with the nm-applet
<ochosi> we need a bright icon in the panel and dark icons in the menu ideally
<astraljava> Err... I must have sleep dust in my eyes, still, but what's wrong with that image?
<ochosi> ok, maybe it's not such a big problem as i assumed :}
<ochosi> the volume-icons cornering the gtk-scale for the volume are bright!!!
<ochosi> ;)
<astraljava> Ahh... you're right.
<ochosi> if i don't fix it, bluesabre will spam me with bugreports in 12.10 again :)
<astraljava> Now that you mention it, they do kinda suck.
<ochosi> awwh
<astraljava> Heheh. :D
<ochosi> man!
<ochosi> ok, off for lunch, bbiab
<astraljava> Sorry, I mean "they are white, man! make the darker!!"
<astraljava> ;)
<ochosi> astraljava: almost there: http://imagebin.org/217445
<astraljava> Whee! Better. :)
<ochosi> now, i have to improve the padding
<ochosi> then it's fixed i guess
<astraljava> Cool.
<ochosi> lucky for us, elementary have the same problem, so maybe we can simply pull their workaround
<ochosi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/elementaryicons/+bug/1015485
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1015485 in elementary Icons "use black 16px volume icons" [Undecided,New]
<astraljava> "It is clear that non-Canonical backed images simply can not support a rolling-QA testing plan, and depend on the milestones system." - Anyone willing to discuss this line with me?
<ochosi> sry, gotta go
<ochosi> have a nice weekend everyone!
<astraljava> Thanks, you too! :)
<ochosi> see y'all on monday :)
<knome> ochosi, hf
<knome> astraljava, what's to discuss?
<knome> astraljava, if we want to go that way, we just need more testers
<knome> astraljava, i don't think that would mean *much* more, but more
<astraljava> knome: What makes you think we'd need more testers?
<knome> currently, the situation is kind of hard because the small amount of testers burn them out on milestones
<knome> because people can't be around all the time
<astraljava> That's really my point.
<astraljava> Are milestones really, actually, beneficial?
<astraljava> Testers are burnt out on early milestones, and might not even appear anymore during the most important times.
<knome> i think there are pros to milestones too
<astraljava> I've seen this happen.
<astraljava> Sure there are. But would this change really be that bad that many people make it seem to?
<knome> hmm.
<knome> i think it would be harder to *start* testing
<knome> right now, there are specific times when testing is *certainly* needed
<astraljava> If we think of it from the Xfce4-side. How often can we even predict that important changes can be scheduled for milestones, anyway?
<astraljava> Yeah, I'm not disputing that.
<knome> if ubuntu goes the non-milestone way, can't we then schedule our own milestones?
<knome> say, publish both one alpha and one beta, when we are ready to
<astraljava> Yes, of course we can.
<astraljava> Right.
<astraljava> So again, I'm not seeing this change as such a bad thing, really.
<knome> that would bring us the good from the more relaxed (non-time-based) scheduling, but also leave us with the benefits from milestones
<knome> me neither.
<knome> but i'm not sure what the correct way towards non-milestone testing would be
<astraljava> Ok, good. I thought I was going insane with this. I don't mean I already am not. :)
<knome> reorganizing users doesn't happen overnight
<knome> and i think it IS good that we have some kind of milestones
<astraljava> No, it doesn't. We just have to be more active, and market the needs in beforehand.
<knome> but i'm not saying we should define how many/when
<knome> i'm thinking it makes sense to have milestones for example when you introduce a new default app
<astraljava> Yep. It doesn't necessarily serve us that well, the vanilla schedule, that is.
<astraljava> Sure. The independence would actually benefit _our_ QA much better.
<knome> that does mean that there needs to be somebody responsible for the QA who knows where the team is going
<knome> of course, you are here now, but for the future too, when situations might change
<astraljava> That's true.
<astraljava> The coordination becomes much more important.
<astraljava> But I intend to develop some processes so that it isn't too dependent on just one person.
<knome> great.
<knome> do we need to inform somebody if we switch to any other scheduling than now?
<knome> the other question i have is that will the QA tracker support making a specific iso a "milestone", eg. not showing up as daily
<astraljava> I think we should chat with Nick before we make any permanent changes.
<astraljava> That's a good point, and again I'd like a word with him and jibel and whoever's involved with that.
<knome> yes, that sounds like a plan
<knome> if possible, involve me and our testers
<astraljava> Yes of course.
<astraljava> I won't be doing any decisions myself, certainly not on matters of this magnitude. :)
<hobgoblin> astraljava: what time is this meeting on sunday for the ones like me ? 
<knome> well of course. that needs to be escalated to the community meeting for sure, but i don't think it's bad to involve community even in the investigating/just-wondering-if -stage
<astraljava> knome: Yeah, well even if everyone cannot be there at the same time, I'd like to introduce the fruits of the initial chatter to the team before we even make any decisions. I believe we will nevertheless introduce this change for the next cycle, anyway.
<astraljava> hobgoblin: http://timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Xubuntu+QA+meeting&iso=20120624T16&ah=2
<knome> astraljava, right'o. keep me informed :)
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Are you on the mailing lists?
<astraljava> knome: I will.
<hobgoblin> astraljava: cool thanks - yes I am - but I forget to remember what I've read 
<hobgoblin> and I deleted a whole bunch in the week following my isp issues
<astraljava> "forget to remember"
<astraljava> That's a nice phrase.
<hobgoblin> :)
<astraljava> Sure. The archives can be found at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-users/2012-June/ and similar for -devel, of course.
<hobgoblin> cheers
<astraljava> Well, that's for June, obviously. Just go up one directory for the whole of it.
<hobgoblin> :)
<mr_pouit> knome: no, we can't schedule our milestones (well, we can schedule them, but not release them). For example, we need someone from Canonical to relaunch an iso build. If ubiquity is broken that particular day, we can't release a good image, etc.
<knome> mr_pouit, yeah, sure
<knome> mr_pouit, but does that imply any daily can't be set as "milestone" in the QA traker?
<astraljava> mr_pouit: Well sure, but they don't normally require a milestone for a rebuild, do they?
<mr_pouit> knome: I don't know the qa tracker very well :P (but I guess we can say: today iso is good, let's call it alpha-beta-gamme-awesome-2)
<mr_pouit> astraljava: yeah, if you poke the right people, they can do a rebuild anytime it seems
<hobgoblin> good - does that mean I don't need to do any daily tests :)
<astraljava> mr_pouit: Yeah, I think what we'd want to achieve is announce that we're going to call certain date's ISO our milestone well in advance, like maybe 4 weeks ahead or something. Then we could advertise it and appeal to testers early enough.
<astraljava> hobgoblin: CERTAINLY NOT!
<hobgoblin> bah humbug :p
<hobgoblin> astraljava: so did you read what I said earlier abotu the QA meeting - should I mark them as pass or fail lol 
<astraljava> As punishment for your foolery, I command you to run 30 amd64 desktops and 20 i386 alternates.
<astraljava> hobgoblin: I thought I responded already; it'd be a fail, as any points in the testcase cause the whole test to fail.
<hobgoblin> ok - then all my passes were in fact all fails then 
<hobgoblin> not been brave enough to do any autoresizes yet though - I'd need to disconnect my real drives I think lol 
<astraljava> Hehe. Come now, what could possibly go wrong?
<astraljava> *blink* *blink*
<hobgoblin> LOL
<GridCube> knome ping
<GridCube> well anayway, knome, i finally could open http://typewith.me/p/Ew1RtC2xCS i think its fine so im sending that to the -users list
<GridCube> under the subject: gmusicbrowser users feedback request
<pleia2> so, 2 problems with alt, one means I can't complete the install, anyone around to look or help me submit the bug reports? (I don't know what to file them against)
<astraljava> pleia2: I'll try.
<pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail1.jpg is the first
<pleia2> if I select "continue" it's ok
<pleia2> I probably should have looked at the console at that point to get more info, I can run again, this happens pretty early in the install
<astraljava> Alright. If you could do that, great. The installer logs should be available as well in /var/log/installer/ or something like that, anyway.
<pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail2.jpg is the fatal one
<pleia2> console: http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail3.jpg
<hobgoblin> is there a way to use usb's for alternates? 
<astraljava> Oh right, it didn't finish at all. :)
<hobgoblin> I tried and gave up 
<astraljava> hobgoblin: unetbootin
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Oh, sorry, no.
<hobgoblin> did that - boots fine and then goes looking for the cd just after the start 
<hobgoblin> aah ok :)
<astraljava> hobgoblin: It wants to use the cd drive for some reason.
<hobgoblin> :)
<pleia2> there is stuff in /var/log/syslog, I'll see if I can copy that somewhere
<knome> mr_pouit, well yeah, that's what i meant about "scheduling (our own) milestones" (calling a specific daily something else than daily)
<astraljava> knome: mr_pouit: You might wanna check out today's release meeting's logs, and the continuing discussion regarding on #ubuntu-release.
<Sysi> at least 12.04 alternate images boot fine from usb when pushed there with dd
<pleia2> hm, I don't actually know how I should go about getting this syslog off this virtualbox
<pleia2> it's on the network, but doesn't seem to have any useful tools for moving a file across it
<GridCube> pleia2: send the files to you by mail 
<pleia2> it doesn't have a mail client
<pleia2> no mail, scp, ftp
<GridCube> o.. correct
<knome> astraljava, i think it's best if one of us uses the time to follow the discussion, and when they seem to get somewhere with it, point the rest with a summary
<knome> astraljava, if you are willing to do that, great :)
<astraljava> Oh sure, I just thought if you wanted to, as well.
<knome> not really, if the disussion level is what is has been :|
<knome> +c too
<pleia2> I guess I'll just copy it to a place on disk and then mount the vdi
<astraljava> pleia2: I'm trying to find how one could get the logs over a http interface, at least there used to be that option at some point.
<GridCube> ... (can't you mount a pendrive and paste stuff there?)
<pleia2> astraljava: I got it this way, no worries
<astraljava> Ok cool.
<pleia2> so, where to file these against?
<astraljava> We'd need more info about the problems _from the logs_ before we could tell. :)
<pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail3.jpg is the logs
<astraljava> Can you pastebin them?
<pleia2> yeah
<astraljava> Thanks.
<pleia2> hmm, darn
<astraljava> I'll look for the package issue from the buildd logs, there should be something there. What date
<pleia2> ok, let me try this again
<astraljava> 's iso was  this?
<pleia2> 22, just grabbed it a half hour ago
<astraljava> Ok, thanks.
<pleia2> 64-bit alt
 * pleia2 tries to get this syslog again
<astraljava> Package libavcodec-extra-53 blacklisted in ship-live but seeded in desktop (libgegl-0.2-0)
<astraljava> Wonder what that means.
<pleia2> hopefully it means you found the problem :)
<astraljava> libavcodec cannot be shipped on CDs (c.f. Ubuntu technical board resolution 2007-01-02).
<astraljava> micahg: Do you know anything about this? ^^
<pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_syslog is the full syslog from the install
<knome> hey pleia2 :)
<pleia2> hello knome 
<astraljava> pleia2: No, that's not it. libavcodec53 should satisfy the depends, so it's something that it depends instead.
<pleia2> ok, well I should probably submit the bug in an event, so..where?
<astraljava> Let me ask a few questions.
 * knome just opened the rum bottle, so if they are for me, be quick
<astraljava> No, not on this channel, silly.
<pleia2> I'll be around all day (but at work) so just pleia2: me if you need me to run a test again or anything
<astraljava> But yeah, just realized there's a wildcard in the blacklisting entry, so libavcodec53 isn't on the cd either.
<astraljava> Which begs the question, how does gimp get installed in the first place?
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Do you have an instance running? If so, then did you add gimp after the installation? If not, then can you check if it's there?
<hobgoblin> I don't - I will next time though 
<knome> astraljava, wait, why wouldn't gimp be installed?
<hobgoblin> gimp is not something I would normally install 
<astraljava> knome: Cause gimp depends on libgegl-0.2-0, which depends on libavcodec53, which isn't on the cd because it's blacklisted.
<micahg> astraljava: AIUI, the issue is more with pressed images than downloadable ones
<astraljava> micahg: Ahh... so the ship and ship-live seeds don't take account on the dailies at all?
<knome> astraljava, i thought blacklisting would allow us not to install specific packages, but wouldn't "break" other packages that depends on them
<micahg> astraljava: we were discussing removing the gegl dep on libav (it's the only thing holding it in main ATM)
<micahg> knome: it won't break if it's not needed :)
<micahg> in this case, it's needed if buitl with the support AIUI
<knome> aha, i see
 * astraljava needs to make the whole image creation process clear for good, this is driving him insane
<pleia2> in the tracker, how do we see results from past days?
<knome> pleia2, i suppose you don't
<pleia2> heh :)
<astraljava> I was thinking you could use the xml-rpc API for it, but am not sure, I'm still in the process of writing the python scripts for it.
<pleia2> I looked through http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/reports/defects to find the bugs I'm seeing in 64-bit Desktop
<pleia2> would be nice to see hobgoblin's bug reports from yesterday so I could see if they still exist
<pleia2> http://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1010487 is a fun one
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1010487 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu - black windows" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<astraljava> Did he download our Satanic Edition?
<knome> pleia2, poke stgraber.
<pleia2> astraljava: I'm getting this too
<astraljava> bah
<pleia2> black on black makes the ubiquity interesting to use
<pleia2> possible, but pretty awful
<astraljava> Just a bit of challenge. C'mon...
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> so, after I do http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopWhole do I do http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopPostInstallation and/or our /Short?
<hobgoblin> pleia2: if you have udisks2 installed then 2 of the bugs will nto be there :)
<pleia2> so far nothing causes it to "fail" for me
<hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/1014635
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1014635 in firefox (Ubuntu Quantal) "Import Wizard has to be cancelled" [Medium,Triaged]
<hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/870297
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 870297 in lightdm (Ubuntu Precise) "Lightdm logins not being logged in wtmp" [High,Confirmed]
<hobgoblin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/thunar/+bug/1014632
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1014632 in thunar (Ubuntu) "Drives/partitions not showing in left pane" [High,Incomplete]
<knome> pleia2, our "/Short" is always "in addition"
<hobgoblin> those pleia2 ^^
<pleia2> hobgoblin: thank you :)
<pleia2> knome: gotcha
<pleia2> udisks2?
<pleia2> oh, so, gimp installs ok on the regular Desktop CD
 * astraljava grumbles
<pleia2> it's a default app, so I didn't need to specially install it or anything
<astraljava> Ok, so there's some reason then why it isn't on the alternate, or one of its dependencies isn't. Gotta look for those next.
<pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212-shutdown.jpg does not have beauiful shutdown options, is this lightdm issue or some theme?
<knome> madnick, ^ ?
<pleia2> ok, I'll hold off on filing this until I know and just submit the iso tracker thingy without it
<pleia2> oh, duh, on this screen it shows "Bugs to look for List of bugs that were previously reported for this testcase." 
<knome> pleia2, heh. yeah, change for this release :)
<pleia2> I should submit a failed test for the Alt image, but will need to submit the bugs against something first
<mr_pouit> pleia2: changes in gtk3 theming
<mr_pouit> you can file a bug against shimmer-themes
<pleia2> thanks!
<mr_pouit> (but I guess ochosi will wait for gtk to be stabilized anyway, otherwise he'd have to redo the theme each week...)
<micahg> gtk stabilize?   probably won't happen until they're focused on gtk4 :P
<pleia2> lol
<pleia2> micahg: you're brilliant! what do I file this against? (installing packages fails in alt installer): http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail3.jpg
<pleia2> I have the syslog so I can copy it properly into a report
<micahg> pleia2: was that a general approbation or based on the comment i just made? :)
<pleia2> hah, general
 * micahg sees if gimp's installable :)
<pleia2> it works fine on the desktop images
<pleia2> just not in alt
<micahg> oh, yeah, because the file is missing on the image
<micahg> xubuntu-meta, this was discussed a bit earlier, has to do with libav not being on images
<micahg> pleia2: ^^
<pleia2> ok thanks
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-23
<cc_INC> I read up some stuff about zsync. I fully understand it now :)
<hobgoblin> cool
<hobgoblin> I finally sorted mine out with some aliases - so I just got 32l 64l 32a or 64a 
<hobgoblin> cc_INC: you managed to do any testing?
<cc_INC> Doing the first test as we speak. Been a busy week but I finaly have time to go testing done!
<cc_INC> :)
<hobgoblin> cool :)
<astraljava> cc_INC: Nice, cool to see more testers, we need you! :)
<cc_INC> I more than happy to help out. If we all give a little bit we all benefit in the end :)
<hobgoblin> absolutely
<astraljava> cc_INC: Projects like these are too huge for volunteers to deal with alone, so if we distribute the forces, we get done a lot. It's something many people don't realize, they just think you need to be a top-notch programmer to be able to contribute.
<cc_INC> This is most definitly true. I donated to opensource in the past.
<cc_INC> But this is the first time I am ever actually doing something...get my lazy zelf in gear :)
<hobgoblin> :)
<hobgoblin> I used to do a lot of testing - but this is the first time I've been orgainsed enough to join in so people 'know' that there are results from me :)
<knome> "dave lentz" ring any bells to anybody?
<knome> he's been changing out bug statuses - some falsely
<cc_INC> Never heard of him
<knome> apparently goes by the nick dlentz
<hobgoblin> was there not someone else doing this recently - can't remember where I heard it though I'm afraid
<knome> i don't know what you are talking about :)
<knome> if you mean somebody until the end of 12.04, yeah, there was charlie
<knome> he did a good job though
<cc_INC> Why would someone fake the testing?!?
<hobgoblin> no - I heard somewhere someone was changing bug statuses - not necessarily xubuntu ones
<hobgoblin> knome: https://launchpad.net/~dtl131
<knome> but this dave, never heard of him, never seen him around here, and he goes changing our bug statuses without checking with us / actually knowing the status
<knome> hobgoblin, that's the same guy
<hobgoblin> guessed so
<hobgoblin> contact him and ask him :)
<knome> i got the impression he's very keen to get karma and to help, but his enthusiasm is converting wrong
<hobgoblin> it is if that's what he's doing :(
<knome> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/332687/comments/13
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 332687 in xubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Create a Xubuntu-specific browser start page" [Wishlist,Fix released]
<hobgoblin> that's not good 
<knome> yep, not good at all.
<knome> i fear we're going to end up with lots of falsely marked bugs that i won't catch
<hobgoblin> is there anyway to filter them? 
<knome> i suppose the only way is to be subscribed to all xubuntu-bugs and go through the mail in your inbox to see if that person changed them
<hobgoblin> :(
<hobgoblin> you could do a /notify dlentz on freenode and try and catch him on there 
<knome> astraljava, hullo?
<knome> he's not online
<cc_INC> Why are there always some people who f**** things up?!?
<hobgoblin> knome: I know - I checked - but if you do a /notify it will tell you when they logon 
<cc_INC> What's the use of sabotaging?
<knome> cc_INC, please note that #xubuntu-devel is fmaily friendly too, including obfuscated words
<astraljava> Wha? I am.
<knome> astraljava, good. can you read the backlog?
<hobgoblin> astraljava: as long as you are not dlentz
<knome> hobgoblin, he's not, i can confirm :P
<hobgoblin> :)
<cc_INC> knome sorry I will remember that :(
<knome> cc_INC, np, and thanks
<knome> i'm sure this guy believes he's of great help
<cc_INC> I'm sure he's living in his own little world :)
<cc_INC> He might need some help :)
<knome> well, no - that's not it. it's just new contributors don't know what's useful
<knome> and if they don't take contact to other people, they will be going more and more the wrong way
<hobgoblin> member of the bug squad - you'd have thought he knew better 
<knome> well, exactly
<cc_INC> Hi guys.... I just encountered something I need some help in filing this properly.
<knome> it's only the bug squad that seemingly can go change the statuses
<hobgoblin> :(
<knome> and it's not *too hard* to get to be a member
<knome> cc_INC, go ahead
<astraljava> knome: Sorry, no idea what's that about.
<cc_INC> I installed Xubuntu by selecting guided - use entire disk
<hobgoblin> I never looked into that knome - so can't comment
<cc_INC> I got a dialogue box after I hit enter, but when I pressed next the install went well....
<cc_INC> Do I need to rapport this dialogue box?!
<knome> astraljava, a guy who we don't know changing our bug statuses to something they're not
<astraljava> I got that, but I don't know the nick, nor why he's doing that. I could contact him and ask what's it all about.
<knome> astraljava, that, or contact the bug squad and tell somebody to kick him out the team before he causes a bigger mess.
<cc_INC> The message I got is: Debootstrap-Warning
<cc_INC> Failed to retrieve InRelease
<knome> astraljava, also, a word or few with the bug squad accepting policies wouldn't hurt >:|
<astraljava> knome: Let's take it easy, alright. :) I'll talk to him first.
<hobgoblin> there';s a bug for that cc_INC I think
<cc_INC> I get two options back or next and if I go next it just goes through...
<knome> astraljava, fine, thanks.
<cc_INC> Oh it's already filed?
<astraljava> knome: Did you have bug numbers for some of those?
<knome> astraljava, #332687
<cc_INC> And...should I file it again too? Or doesn't it work like that?
<hobgoblin> cc_INC: think so - trying to find it 
<hobgoblin> I thought pleia2 had that yesterday cc_INC - astraljava might know more 
<knome> astraljava, #370539 is another where he's involved, but that's kind of not wrong... but still looks like he doesn't completely know what he's doing
<hobgoblin> but it's a fail 
<knome> astraljava, i don't have more now, but i'm sure there is more.
<astraljava> cc_INC: That's probably because of extras.ubuntu.com, no idea what's going on with that, and why it's even there in the first place.
<astraljava> knome: Thanks.
<knome> astraljava, oh wait, #1016677. that's again not wrong, but he's guessing and totally not on top of the issues.
<cc_INC> Okay, I will report it just in case :)
<knome> astraljava, if he was at all connected with the xubuntu team, he'd know we have that documentation blueprint. and if he knew (x)ubuntu at all, he'd know that what xfce does doesn't really imply what xubuntu does.
<knome> astraljava, http://tinyurl.com/86h772f - a list of bugs he touched with the search term "xubuntu"
<knome> astraljava, that doesn't seem to be too much, but i don't want one more, if he's guessing and going blindfold into bug triaging
<knome> </rant>
<astraljava> Alright, I sent him a message to contact us either on #ubuntu-bugs or here.
<hobgoblin> hi Os_Maleus 
<Os_Maleus> hi hobgoblin!
<mr_pouit> knome: someone marked yesterday many xubuntu-docs bugs as dups of one another (maybe he's the guy you wrote about)
<cc_INC> Does anyone know where I can find Hardware Profiles on wiki?
<cc_INC> I can't seem to fine my T60
<hobgoblin> hang on cc_INC 
<hobgoblin> cc_INC: run this in a terminal checkbox-gtk  then eventually you'll end up with your hardware profile
<hobgoblin> personally I never bother with it - I forget :)
<cc_INC> On the Submit your results page there is a box called Hardware Profile where you can input a URL
<cc_INC> I found some hardware profiles on Ubuntu Wiki, but can't find my machine
<cc_INC> Or doesn't that really matter?!
<hobgoblin> yea - once you run all that checkbox stuff you end up with a page with YOUR hardware profile on it 
<hobgoblin> I've never done it 
<cc_INC> ok
<hobgoblin> and tbh I have no idea hwo to find the resulting URL afterwards if you forget it
<knome> mr_pouit, probably.
<hobgoblin> cc_INC: now I found it lol
<cc_INC> Found what?
<hobgoblin> my list :)
<cc_INC> ok :)
<knome> mr_pouit, what i'm worried about is that it's so easy to become a bugsquad member, then go running like a headless chicken, as i said before
<pleia2> cc_INC: did you end up submitting that bug? I got it too but didn't know what to file it against
<pleia2> cc_INC: also, I created wiki pages myself for my hardware, like: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lyz/LenovoG575
<cc_INC> You mean the  Debootstrap-Warning?!
<pleia2> yes
<pleia2> http://princessleia.com/temp/xubuntu-062212_fail1.jpg
<cc_INC> Found one bug already filed: #1002438 
<cc_INC> Just noted that it also affected me
<cc_INC> I think that was the right thing to do :)
<cc_INC> Correct me if I'm wrong ofcourse
<pleia2> hm, are you sure this is the right bug? the error message in this bug doesn't seem to mention InRelease at all
<pleia2> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/105744077/d-i_20120521_debconf-warning.png is a different warning than what I get
<pleia2> I'll run it again with images today though and see what I get
 * pleia2 is awake too early
<cc_INC> ...Hmm....it seems lack of sleep is starting to take it's tol. You are right pleia2
<cc_INC> I will file a bug with the warning message I get. Lucky for my I took a screenshot just in case!
<cc_INC> There....thanks for the heads-up pleia2. I should focus much more.
<cc_INC> Anyways, filed the bug under #1016887
<pleia2> cc_INC: cool, thanks!
<cc_INC> I don't understand the live session Persistence test :(
 * hobgoblin thought we were supposed to be doing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Testing/Short
<cc_INC> Ah....okay
<hobgoblin> I could be wrong 
<cc_INC> So this doesn't count for us: http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Install/DesktopLiveSession
<cc_INC> uhm...help? :)
<hobgoblin> lookign back at the minutes we shuld be using that wiki page
<hobgoblin> takes about 30 seconds to do that 
<cc_INC> Allright!!
<cc_INC> And I add my results on the qa.ubuntu.com page all the same?
<hobgoblin> I do some other bits to make sure I get dual monitor support 
<hobgoblin> yep
<cc_INC> Okay...thanks man. This testing is new to me, it's actually making me nervous :)
<hobgoblin> :)
<hobgoblin> mr_pouit: thanks - didn't realise notifications wasn't there in 12.04 :) not used 12.10 properly as yet 
<alazare619> whats the means that xubuntu is respun with
<alazare619> is it live-build uck or some other means?
<madnick> Might mean that someone builds upon it
<madnick> Publish daily version, major "error", "respin"
<alazare619> im trying to just figure out how they exactly are building the iso's they use the official ubuntu repos along with a few others of course but is the build method live-build or is it some other?
 * astraljava is still puzzled with why daily-live can install gimp but alternate cannot (re: Lionel's email)
 * hobgoblin is just confused
<alazare619> what do the people that make the xubuntu iso's use to remaster it from the ubuntu iso
<alazare619> is it livebuild i know its not uck
<astraljava> alazare619: We just take care of our seeds, and the release folks handle the image creation. Try asking on #ubuntu-devel or something.
<alazare619> im trying to make my own ubuntu based distro using hte official methods with mate-desktop built in by default but i wana do it the exact same methods that xubuntu uses as it works so seamless 
<alazare619> ill check ubuntu devel tho thanks :)
<alazare619> you just modify the preseed files?
<astraljava> alazare619: You can find all the seeds files on launchpad, under Ubuntu Seeds.
<alazare619> how can i download the seeds file from the launchpad?
<astraljava> alazare619: Go to any of the seeds, you'll see the actual command on the page. (hint: bzr branch)
<alazare619> kk ive build iso's for the debian upstream branch but not ubuntu and they used live build i guess if i see the config i cna figure out which it is
<alazare619> ive never used launchpad to download code from it do i need any program on my computer?
<Unit193> Generally bzr.
#xubuntu-devel 2012-06-24
<hobgoblin> anyone awake and got a minute :)
<holstein> hobgoblin: i got a minute... maybe 5
<holstein> whats up?
<hobgoblin> if grub fails during an install - do I file bug against grub or ubiquity? :)
<hobgoblin> well it installs but to the wrong drive :)
<holstein> good question...
<hobgoblin> LOL
<holstein> i would think grub for that
<hobgoblin> okey doke 
<knome> i'd say ubiquity... :)
<holstein> since its installing but grub is putting it in an unexpected place or whatever
<knome> because ubiquity tells grub what to do
<holstein> yeah... thats a very good point
<holstein> which one is failing
<knome> if it should be against grub, someone more knowledgeable will move it anyway
<hobgoblin> knome: okey doke :)
<hobgoblin> I'm of the opinion that it's critical - in this case I already had grub from 12.04 in sda so it booted, but the whole drive install to sdc put grub in sdb for some reason
<hobgoblin> knome: ^^ what do you think?
<knome> yes, it's critical
<hobgoblin> k
<hobgoblin> just going to do one more daily then that's it for today 
<hobgoblin> back later
<knome> hf
<hobgoblin> :)
<holstein> \o/
<pleia2> astraljava: around? I'll be a few minutes late, have a couple of things to take care of before meeting
<astraljava> pleia2: Yeah I'm around. I'm very unprepared, though, I have some pressing issues that require my attention, but let's see how it goes.
<pleia2> ok, I'll be back soon
<hobgoblin> astraljava: r/l trumps everything :)
<astraljava> Yes it does. And the issues being in a totally new professional field, they _really_ consume all available time.
<astraljava> Right, so was there someone here for the QA meeting?
<astraljava> Let's have a show of hands.
<hobgoblin> well I'm here 
<hobgoblin> pretty sure one of those who were here last week said they'd be missing 
<astraljava> I seem to recall something to that effect too.
<hobgoblin> both are missing :)
<astraljava> Let's give it a few more minutes. Unless we get any more traffic, I'm going to postpone this.
<hobgoblin> k
<hobgoblin> I've only really got one question anyway 
<hobgoblin> hi Os_Maleus 
<Os_Maleus> hi hobgoblin!
<hobgoblin> astraljava: so 2 and you now 
<astraljava> Oh right.
<astraljava> Hi Os_Maleus, you're here for the QA meeting?
<hobgoblin> but I've no problem with whatever 
<Os_Maleus> yes, that one I am.
<astraljava> Ok, cool. Let's give it a few minutes, my right hand (she's often called pleia2) said she's gonna be a few minutes late. I'll use that time to quickly glance over last meeting's minutes, and you can prepare some questions I'm sure were left hanging after the last session.
<Os_Maleus> from my side, the things are clear. 
<hobgoblin> only got the one question at the moment 
<Os_Maleus> just listening a bit around. perhaps I am hearing some new stuffs. :-)
<hobgoblin> yea - questions can arise then :)
<pleia2> ok, back :)
<hobgoblin> wb :)
<pleia2> I have a few questions
<pleia2> first is for hobgoblin!
<astraljava> Let's have the questions piled up until now first.
<hobgoblin> I would just like a definitive on whether a daily test is a fail if anything from the short list fails. 
<astraljava> hobgoblin: That one is a firm yes.
<hobgoblin> k - thanks :)
<pleia2> how fail does it have to fail? I couldn't precisely match up hobgoblin's bugs with very specific things on the short list (maybe I missed them though)
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Testers need not to worry about whether it feels right or not. The testcase authors have to make sure the cases are logical and really required, and also worded right.
<pleia2> (and actually, this was my question)
<astraljava> That does not mean that you couldn't suggest changes to the testcases.
<hobgoblin> I might have a suggestion for testcases 
<astraljava> But as a rule of thumb, while doing the testing, you follow it to the point, and if anything goes wrong, the test is marked as failed.
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Sure, let's wait for those until later, though.
<hobgoblin> ok
<astraljava> Thanks for a good question! Anything else?
<hobgoblin> not from me
<astraljava> Os_Maleus? pleia2? Anyone else?
<pleia2> I guess my question is which of hobgoblin's tests where on the Short list
<hobgoblin> the fails?
<pleia2> I think one was a USB one
<pleia2> yeah
<hobgoblin> yea - that has been a consistent fail - all of my tests had that
<hobgoblin> the fix is on the way though I believe
<astraljava> For Xubuntu, this should be fixed in tomorrow's images.
<hobgoblin> good
<pleia2> does it mount the disk, thunar just doesn't allow browsing?
<hobgoblin> dmesg sees it - but nothing else
<astraljava> You can track the progress of it on bug #1014632
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1014632 in thunar (Ubuntu) "Drives/partitions not showing in left pane" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1014632
<hobgoblin> the test doesn;t include installing udisks2 and rebooting
<pleia2> oh, I thought we were talking about 1017076
<pleia2> err
<Os_Maleus> astraljava: like told before: I was just signed in automatically here to listen around what news I am hearing and to catch up some ways to solve those. 
<pleia2> 1011917
<astraljava> bug #1011917
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1011917 in thunar (Ubuntu) "Thunar not allowing USB inserted browsing" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1011917
<hobgoblin> same bug I think pleia2 
<hobgoblin> it'll be fixed iwth udisks2 if that is the cause of 1014632
<pleia2> hobgoblin: does it show up in "mount"?
<hobgoblin> nope
<astraljava> Seems a dupe.
<pleia2> ok cool, that was my main worry
<Os_Maleus> astraljava: otherwise, I am fighting around with some kind of pneumonia. for which there is no solution offered here, I guess. 
<hobgoblin> astraljava: I think it is too
<pleia2> the test case is very exclusively "If you have a USB drive, plug it in and check it is mounted"
<pleia2> not "can you open it" ;)
<astraljava> Os_Maleus: Ok, take care soon. Sadly our bug-ridding won't help you there.
<hobgoblin> mmm - semantics pleia2 :)
<pleia2> hobgoblin: semantics? this is important, I don't know that I would have marked it as a fail
<astraljava> pleia2: Yep, that was partly why I mentioned the testcase wordings just above.
<pleia2> (well, if it showed up in "mount" I wouldn't have)
<hobgoblin> I would - a usb that mounts in the system but is useless without fiddling is useless
<pleia2> if the test is "If you have a USB drive, plug it in and check it is mounted and browseable" we should make it "and browseable"
<hobgoblin> imo
<astraljava> It's hardly interesting to know that the system can mount a removable disk. It should be browsable, too.
<hobgoblin> +1
<hobgoblin> reword it then :)
<pleia2> ok, we should reword it
<astraljava> Hold your horses, we'll get there.
<hobgoblin> lol
<pleia2> next question is bug 1014632 :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1014632 in thunar (Ubuntu) "Drives/partitions not showing in left pane" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1014632
<pleia2> how is this a fail? we don't even mention Thunar in the short test
<hobgoblin> pleia2: which is where a usb would be browseable from 
<pleia2> but the test asks nothing about the behavior of thunar, by this logic anything wrong with thunar at all is a fail
<hobgoblin> well mark it as a pass ;)
<astraljava> No, again, it's the same thing as we just went through. We don't really care whether the system is able to mount removable drives. Well we do, but we also want to be able to browse them.
<astraljava> Like we just agreed, we'll reword the test.
<pleia2> I really am just using these as examples
<pleia2> trying to figure out how strict the wording on Short is
<astraljava> Sure, and these examples are just about the same problem, unless I'm seeing something differently.
<hobgoblin> they are 
<astraljava> pleia2: It seems to be really strict, as I understood from the last QA community meeting.
<pleia2> alright
<astraljava> So, again, we have to carefully reword the cases.
<pleia2> thanks :)
<astraljava> They need to describe things we really care about, like in this case is very evident.
<hobgoblin> thanks :)
<astraljava> Good points, thank you! Do we have any further questions?
 * pleia2 has a few, but others should go if they have some :)
<hobgoblin> none here
<astraljava> I believe we can go through yours, pleia2.
<pleia2> I see the same questions coming up from testers over and over: 1) Where do I know where to submit a bug 2) what to put in the "hardware profile" url link
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 2 could not be found
<pleia2> sorry ubottu 
 * pleia2 pet pet
<pleia2> are these documented somewhere?
<hobgoblin> I managed to dig out the hardware profile thing the other day for ccInc I think it was 
<astraljava> They probably are not, very well at least.
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage is ok for installed systems, but it's really hard for iso testing
<pleia2> I talked to a BugSquad person the other day and he said people can ask in #ubuntu-bugs too
<hobgoblin> good idea
<astraljava> That's one thing. Sometimes people just aren't available. I wouldn't mind if people filed the bugs against the project, unless there are some release-specific items on LP.
<astraljava> I'll mark that one up for research.
<astraljava> Sorry, don't have a good answer right now.
<pleia2> no worries, I'd rather it made it somewhere xubuntu-ish rather than just another of the thousands of bugs against ubuntu when people don't know
<pleia2> having it linked in the QA tracker helps make it not get lost, so maybe I'm too worried :)
<astraljava> Well it sort of does, but the current problem of losing the results when the next image is spun makes them difficult to find, at the moment.
<astraljava> "losing"*
<pleia2> actually, there is now a "Bugs to look for" at the top of each test submission thing
<pleia2> "List of bugs that were previously reported for this testcase."
<pleia2> they are testcase specific, but they aren't lost anymore
<astraljava> I'm not sure whether people saw that, but on yesterday's (excellent, if I might add) classroom QA session, phillw mentioned work is being done on the tracker so that results can be found easier.
<pleia2> yeah, that too
<pleia2> is there a project for the QA tracker in launchpad? (my google fu is failing horribly)
<pleia2> I'll see if there is a bug open to add a note to "hardware profile" telling people they can just include any link, that would sort the other tedious problem
<hobgoblin> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website
<pleia2> thanks hobgoblin :)
<hobgoblin> the onlky thing I found about hardware profile is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/U+1/iso-testing-qa#Step_2:_Hardware_Profile
<hobgoblin> but I never have used it myself in the tracker
<pleia2> ah, the scattering of documentation between 40 qa projects
<hobgoblin> yep
<pleia2> ok, I'll submit a bug on this
<astraljava> Yeah, thanks hobgoblin. I'll try to make a short howto of that for this upcoming milestone testing call.
<hobgoblin> ok 
<pleia2> my next question is because of my annoying time zone
<hobgoblin> astraljava: or I could do it - I have spare time if it helps you
<astraljava> hobgoblin: I'd appreciate it muchly. :)
<hobgoblin> astraljava: ok :)
<pleia2> I often only get time to test isos in the evening, which is like 03:00 UTC, and dailys come out around this time, annoyingly I often download an iso and then by the time I get it to my test machine it's the next day
<hobgoblin> pleia2: I've had that happen 3 or 4 times 
<pleia2> what channel/mailing list/whatever should I follow to get an idea of when dailys are made?
<pleia2> I might just wait until my time in the evening when the next comes out ,but right now I only know by refreshing the qa site (dislike)
<astraljava> pleia2: They're cron-based, it seems today's images came out at 0958 UTC (most likely, unless the page makes it to my timezone automagically).
<astraljava> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/20120624/
<pleia2> so it really is just checking websites for images to show up
<astraljava> pleia2: Yep, I don't think Xubuntu receives email about it. I could ask for one, Studio gets one but I'm not sure why.
<hobgoblin> pleia2: seems they are always at that time 
<pleia2> that would be lovely :)
<pleia2> I mean, I could write an hourly script to go check http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/nextday and send myself an email ;)
<hobgoblin> pleia2: daily lives appear to be 10:20 ish
<astraljava> pleia2: Err... so you won't need email to be sent from the cdimage process, then?
<pleia2> hobgoblin: hm, that hasn't really been my experience
<pleia2> astraljava: I think it's still useful, these questions aren't all about personal needs, I think they're useful to others too
<hobgoblin> yep
<pleia2> if we can figure out how studio gets one, that'd be nice :)
<astraljava> pleia2: Ok. I'd like to discuss with the team, first, though. Not sure everyone will want the "spam". :)
<pleia2> yeah, we may want to set up a separate qa list for the noise
<pleia2> alright, I think that's all my questions
<pleia2> thanks :)
<astraljava> pleia2: I can find out how we (Studio) get it, for sure.
<astraljava> Ok, thanks for all of your great questions!
<astraljava> So, as I really haven't had time to prepare a real agenda for today, let me just freely go through a few things that I have on my mind regarding the near future.
<hobgoblin> one quick one from me 
<astraljava> Ok, shoot.
<hobgoblin> what do you want me to do with the hardware profile thing once I've done it? 
<hobgoblin> or rather where do you want me to do it - wiki page, e-mail ... 
<astraljava> hobgoblin: A wiki page would be lovely, under Xubuntu/Testing/, please.
<hobgoblin> ok :)
 * hobgoblin is quiet now
<Unit193> There's a "Subscribe" and "Unsubscribe" under the ISOs, as well as a WIP subscriptions page.
<GridCube> (is today another testers meeting?)
 * astraljava sighs
<astraljava> First, Unit193, want to elaborate a bit on that one? Second, GridCube, yes, as announced on our mailing lists. :)
<GridCube> o: i must have missed it
<GridCube> its there anything you might need from me?
<astraljava> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2012-June/008252.html
<GridCube> oh, yes
<GridCube> i read that, i just forgot
<astraljava> GridCube: I dunno, if you have anything to contribute. :)
<GridCube> i need to start to use some kind of scheduling thingy
<GridCube> :) astraljava i have a small comment
<astraljava> It shoulda been in the Xubuntu calendar. Ask pleia2 for details.
<pleia2> Unit193: wow, I spent like 10 minutes the other day trying to find how to Subscribe (btw http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/subscription is sad)
<pleia2> it is in the calendar
<GridCube> the other day i fall into the qa tracker meeting, just happened to be around at the time
<astraljava> Thanks, pleia2.
<Unit193> pleia2: Quite.
<hobgoblin> pleia2: I might have found it ... 
<pleia2> Unit193: hm, I see an option to subscribe to the test cases
<hobgoblin> yea that 
<pleia2> not the isos themselves
<GridCube> and asked the guy who was chairing it to if he could see for my idea of this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+bug/994816
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 994816 in Ubuntu QA Website "Buttons for adding bugs found in previous builds of a product" [Wishlist,Fix committed]
<GridCube> he said he would look into it and that he liked the idea :3
<Unit193> Like http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/reports/defects or http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/reports/bugs ?
<pleia2> Unit193: are you referring to the test cases or ISOs? if ISOs, where?
<Unit193> Testcase.
<pleia2> ok, you said ISOs, I am looking for when the ISOs are ready each day
<astraljava> GridCube: Yes, I think that is already being worked on, but not sure. Nonetheless, good if you got your message through.
<GridCube> :D i did
<astraljava> Unit193: pleia2: Is your matter still being handled?
<GridCube> i would also have said that works where being done rewriting the testcase procedurals, but i was afraid of making a mistake
<astraljava> Oh, they are. I will talk more about them when they are in place.
<astraljava> In fact, I just asked about it on -testing.
<astraljava> ...or something related to that.
<astraljava> Unit193: I ask because I am not sure what you're referring to.
<Unit193> I'm done, yep.
<astraljava> Unit193: No, I mean, I'd like to know. :)
<astraljava> Oh, sorry, missed a line, there.
<pleia2> astraljava: I'm all set
<astraljava> Right, so any more questions/worries from anyone?
<pleia2> I still need to review the Long test, I have an email from knome in my inbox
<astraljava> Yes, me too.
<hobgoblin> is that on the way - generally speaking
<astraljava> Okay, so that's one thing I wanted to say. The /Long testcase is being rewritten, and I'll post about it once we get it into a little better shape.
<astraljava> We need to do it soon, as we're entering the Alpha-2 week now.
<astraljava> The purpose is to release the milestone on Thursday, 28th of June.
<astraljava> So if you have time this upcoming week, pay attention to our mailing lists.
<astraljava> As this is an important thing in our QA process, I won't spend too much of our time on other issues right now. I'll just briefly mention a few other things that are going on in the QA-side of things for this cycle.
<astraljava> Two other things are on my plate, and they were also mentioned in the first meeting announcement; Boot-time speed-up, and Compositor usage.
<astraljava> Of the first, we have a blueprint at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-optimize-boot
<astraljava> As you can see, it's in its initial state, still. I'll work on it right after we get Alpha-2 nicely outta oven.
<astraljava> If you have lots of time on your hands, though, you can already get educated on bootcharting.
<astraljava> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootCharting
<astraljava> It's one valuable tool that we can use to gather information about our product and how it behaves at the boot-time.
<astraljava> It's not enough alone, though, but it'll get us started. We will then discuss about our findings once some preliminary analyzing of the results is done.
<astraljava> Again, stay tuned for our meetings when we proceed with this.
<astraljava> ...if you're interested, that is. :)
<hobgoblin> :)
<astraljava> The other thing, compositor, and whether to enable it by default or not, is another matter.
<astraljava> Practically there are two schools of thought, here.
<astraljava> For some it seems to provide a more pleasing desktop experience.
<astraljava> For some others, it seems to make it hideous.
<astraljava> There doesn't seem to be much middle-ground here.
<astraljava> For this I haven't yet been able to draw any plans, really. So if you are a usability expert, or have some thoughts about it generally, please do let us know. Any forum is fine.
<astraljava> But basically, in the end I'm after some hard facts on what things seem to factor in to the end results, and once we have those, we want to find out whether there's something we can do to act on borderline cases.
<astraljava> I'll post about this on the mailing lists, again, when I have a moment to focus on it better.
<astraljava> Right, that's about what I have to say at the moment. Did anyone think of any new questions based on the things I babbled about above, or some completely other topics?
<hobgoblin> bootchart - I assume that you'd want it installed into quantal for it to make sense ?
<astraljava> hobgoblin: Yes. This means that you cannot scrub the new install that you do when going through our ISO testing. :)
<hobgoblin> :)
<hobgoblin> depends how many bootcharts you want :)
<astraljava> But then again, it's only for a short period of time. It's not particularly interesting to test it on very old installs.
<hobgoblin> nope
<astraljava> Good, any others?
<hobgoblin> not from me 
<astraljava> going once...
<astraljava> going twice...
<astraljava> 'endmeeting'
<hobgoblin> thanks astraljava - time for food and stuff before the italians get a hammering for me 
<astraljava> Thanks for everyone! Good questions, nice conversation.
<pleia2> thanks astraljava :)
<astraljava> Hah. :) Well, quite frankly, never been a fan of the italian team. Hope you guys win. :)
<hobgoblin> astraljava: I'll work on that wiki page tomorrow
<hobgoblin> astraljava: me too and then 5-1 against the germans would be good - can't see it though lol
<astraljava> hobgoblin: That's great if you can do that. Please ping me when you have something ready.
<hobgoblin> astraljava: I will :)
<astraljava> Cheers.
<astraljava> Oh yeah, I didn't think we needed another meeting very soon, but pleia2, didn't we agree earlier that we'd have these every third week=
<astraljava> = == ?
<pleia2> astraljava: yeah, something like that :)
<pleia2> so July 15th?
<astraljava> Ok, can you mark it in the Xubuntu calendar? 15th of July, same time same place.
<astraljava> Heh, nice.
<astraljava> I'll note it in the minutes as well.
<pleia2> ok, adding to calendar now
<astraljava> You rawk!
<pleia2> thanks, sorted :)
<micahg> mr_pouit: did you discuss the gegl change with the desktoppers?
<alazare619> can soemeone get me a copy of the preseed file for xubuntu
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ You can.
<mr_pouit> micahg: nope, because the merge from jbicha was incomplete (he wanted to drop libavcodec-dev, but kept libavformat-dev, which depends on libavcodec-dev...)
<mr_pouit> micahg: if they're not happy, they can say it (it has been broken since the merge and nobody took action, so I guess nobody cares)
<alazare619> Unit193, how do i download the preseed file from there?
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-17
<Kk2> hello ^^
<pleia2> hi Kk2 
<Kk2> how are you doing pleia2?
<Kk2> im just reading the "how can i help xubuntu" :P
<Unit193> pleia2: Yes!  I was right.  I was thinking about re-assigning that to -website as well. 
<pleia2> :)
<knome> pleia2, i'm fine with the suggested changes, we should simply just draft a good text
<pleia2> knome: sounds good
<knome> it should be relatively short and easily understandable
<knome> we can even change the layout if we think it would be better that way
<knome> (32-bit images on the left, 64-bit on the right)
<knome> not the first thing i'd jump into, but doable
<pleia2> I'll have to reread and think about it tonight, right now my brain no worky for this (people are so confused about 32 vs 64 bit)
<Unit193> EFI means 64, 2G or less RAM means 32.:D
<pleia2> saying things like that to normal people makes them cry
<knome> haha
<Unit193> I generally go with 32 anyway, but that's me.  I thought it was pretty simple, but guess not.
<knome> pleia2, would you add me to the gdoc editors too? ta
<pleia2> knome: what is your goog account?
<knome> same as my email - pasi@shimmerproject.org
<pleia2> my internet connection is bad today and it's putting me in a foul mood
 * knome huggles pleia2 
 * pleia2 hugs
<knome> do you mind if i reformat the content?
<pleia2> go for it
<knome> ta
<knome> fiddled a bit with it
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-18
<pleia2> elfy: added your autopilot testing meeting to the xubuntu team calendar
<elfy> pleia2: didn't know there was such a thing - but thanks :)
<ochosi> knome: what shall we do about this in saucy? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Raring/Wallpapers
<ochosi> micahg, mr_pouit: Hey, can one of you two update our artwork package for Saucy? I put together a list of changes here, should be pretty straightforward: http://dpaste.com/1251665/
 * Noskcaj is away: school
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-19
<Unit193> pleia2: Technically compressed is fine, lossey isn't.
<knome> ochosi, pursue
<ochosi> knome: ok good, so we need to contact all the authors of those pics i guess
<knome> yup
 * rowboatnick appears
<rowboatnick> anyone here for the meeting
<rowboatnick> ?*
<elfy> 2 ticks
<lderan> yup
<rowboatnick> I dont really know much about the meeting bot
<pleia2> once you #startmeeting it will tell you lots of commands
<rowboatnick> okay
<pleia2> and you can always add more chairs to help you with #chair elfy
<pleia2> etc
<rowboatnick> okay cool, lets get this going :)
<rowboatnick> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun 19 19:06:30 2013 UTC.  The chair is rowboatnick. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<rowboatnick> #chair elfy
<meetingology> Current chairs: elfy rowboatnick
<elfy> back - sorry bout that 
<rowboatnick> hehe
<pleia2> you snooze, you become a chair
<lderan> its the law of the land
<elfy> so - shall I kick it off then 
<rowboatnick> So. Anyone have any specifics they want to discuss? I have a smaller list of things
<rowboatnick> Do that
<elfy> k - I was chatting to balloons in the qa channel - trying to get a handle on whether it's going to be much use to us before we spend a  lot of time 
<elfy> and we can probably make it easier to do some of the more basic tests - but whether we'll find it's a good use of our time I'm not so sure
<elfy> we're never going to be able to do advanced testing - so that's going to be manual it seems
<rowboatnick> How come?
<elfy> perhaps some install tests - they are being worked on
<elfy> issues with gtk I think rowboatnick
<rowboatnick> An automated installer/test would be great :P
<rowboatnick> Oh
<lderan> that it would
<elfy> <balloons> ahh.. well, gtk apps are a little notorious, but we have a branch of working testcases we've done for the ubuntu desktop apps
<elfy> <balloons> for you guys, I think the automating installer work is your best bang for the buck at the moment
<elfy> basically those two quotes sum up what I got from the chat with him :)
<elfy> BUT 
<lderan> ah okay
<elfy> given how many people we tend to have testing - how many are likely to have machines they can let an automatic test loose on?
<elfy> I know I haven't
<rowboatnick> I would probably use it for a VM
<lderan> do we know the percentage of testing done on VMs?
<rowboatnick> We did have testers fill in their equippment prior
<rowboatnick> Im not sure where that data has gone, or if its updated
<elfy> lderan: I don't know - my next thing to dig at is how to drag stats from the reports the tracker produces
<elfy> rowboatnick: agreed - I could do so with VM's 
<rowboatnick> So automated tests are low priority, in general?
<elfy> apparently someone is working on these installer tests 
<elfy> rowboatnick: I think that if people 'ubuntu' orientated are looking at those - let them
<elfy> our time would be better used in doing basic app tests I'd think for the future
<rowboatnick> We have a lot of unique software tho
<elfy> ^^
<rowboatnick> But yes, I do see the point
<elfy> I'd rather have autotest to do abiword/gnumeric etc
<elfy> install is install 
<lderan> agreed, basic testing is best way 
<elfy> that's my thinking - I'm looking at trying to have things there for the LTS 
<elfy> don't know what you're thoughts are 
<rowboatnick> My thoughts were, I suppose, try to get people on writing core function test cases, and like you said before, elaborate them later
<elfy> this is the crux of my problem with it - how many people do we have :)
<elfy> as far as I know there are you and lderan 
<elfy> at least looking at our things
<rowboatnick> But its kinda low hanging fruit too. One can simply write and suggest a testcase, so those people mailing the list relatively frequently could perhaps be pointed in that direction
<elfy> yep
<elfy> how about if we try and at least get some sort of list together and get bugs done for them - something to point people towards
<rowboatnick> Btw, how bad is it, tester wise, are there any non-irc people doing them+
<elfy> I know of a few
<elfy> I think we'll have a better idea when alpha1 is out for a week
<rowboatnick> Yes it sounds like a plan
<lderan> yeah list idea sounds good
<elfy> the manual stuff is working well like that - getting picked off one by one 
<elfy> ok - so I'll get a list together - we can brainstorm some sort of priority for it then do some bugs and set importance 
<rowboatnick> okay
<lderan> okay
<elfy> so that's the general part sorted for the moment -  plan A 
<elfy> I can co-ordinate this - but the specifics are beyond me - I'm no coder 
<elfy> so if I can look to you both to help that'll be great
<rowboatnick> sure
<lderan> aye will do all that i can
<elfy> thanks :)
<elfy> so - rowboatnick you had some specifics? 
<rowboatnick> Yes, but we basically covered them, i had some points about; which apps are critical to test? contributors, core features and state of the install of autopilot
<rowboatnick> (typing with 1 finger, so its a bit slow ;))
<rowboatnick> So, yes, I dont really have anything to add I suppose
<elfy> ok - lderan ?
<lderan> all stuff covered for me
<elfy> #action elfy create list of apps for autopilot for prioritisation
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy create list of apps for autopilot for prioritisation
<elfy> #action elfy set up bugs for required autopilot tests
<meetingology> ACTION: elfy set up bugs for required autopilot tests
<elfy> #idea point people mailing -dev list at a/pilot bugs
<elfy> rowboatnick lderan - anything else needing action or idea ?
<rowboatnick> not that i can think of
<lderan> same
<elfy> k
<elfy> thanks then :)
<rowboatnick> thank you :)
<lderan> thanks :D
<elfy> not sure I did much other than get confused by the whole thing earlier :)
<elfy> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun 19 19:35:32 2013 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-06-19-19.06.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2013/xubuntu-devel.2013-06-19-19.06.html
<elfy> d'oh 
<lderan> what's up?
<elfy> should have put noscjak's name against the actions :p
<lderan> ah
<Noskcaj> What package are the indicators at the logon screen from?
<Noskcaj> there's a graphical glitch in 13.10
<ochosi> Noskcaj: screenshot plz
<ochosi> (if you refer to the session-menu and the language menu, then those aren't ubuntu indicators, but normal menus that are part of the greeter)
<Noskcaj> ochosi, http://imgur.com/6GawhHD
<Noskcaj> top right corner
<ochosi> Noskcaj: right, the fix is in Greybird already, could you try it from git?
<Noskcaj> how do i do that?
<ochosi> download here: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/archive/master.zip
<ochosi> extract to ~/.themes/
<ochosi> (if that dir doesn't exist, just create it)
<Noskcaj> done
<ochosi> then logout again and check whether it's fixed
<Noskcaj> it's not.
<Noskcaj> i'll try restarting
<ochosi> nah, wait a sec
<ochosi> "ls ~/.themes/" looks like what?
<ochosi> (the folder inside should be called "Greybird", not something else)
<Noskcaj> Greybird-master
<ochosi> right, rename that ;)
<ochosi> or switch to Greybird-master in the appearance settings
<ochosi> or actually no, rename it, otherwise you also have to change the lightdm-gtk-greeter config file
<Noskcaj> done
<Noskcaj> after logging out then back in a crash report has appeared
<Noskcaj> and the bug still isn't fixed
<Noskcaj> i've tried both
<ochosi> well anyhoo, the new greeter (1.6) will hopefully land in saucy soon and as soon as greybird from git lands there as well, that glitch will be gone
<ochosi> so nothing to worry about
<Noskcaj> ok
<Noskcaj> yay, only 4 bugs this install
<Noskcaj> 8 is my record this cycle
 * Noskcaj isn't sure if this is an achievement
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-20
<pleia2> knome: btw http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/06/20/ubuntu-donations-and-community-funding/
<pleia2> flavors budget!
<elfy> pleia2: where is this xubuntu calendar thingy ? 
<elfy> and I saw that donation stuff a short while ago - looks good 
<pleia2> elfy: https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=383qgn907l43kd425bteqjg850@group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/Los_Angeles
<pleia2> er, https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=383qgn907l43kd425bteqjg850@group.calendar.google.com :)
 * pleia2 removes her time zone
<elfy> lol
<elfy> pleia2: who can add things to it? 
<pleia2> looks like me and knome 
<elfy> and do people look at it I wonder - except me - I know I didn't :p
<pleia2> I can add you as an editor too if you want
<elfy> well if we use it then it's useful :)
<pleia2> what's your google account?
<elfy> elfyesq
<pleia2> there you go
<elfy> thanks 
<Unit193> elfy: I do.
<knome> pleia2, ahem, ok.
<Unit193> So the answer for the random donations question in #xubuntu could technically have a different answer.
<pleia2> there's no way to earmark it for a specific flavor
<pleia2> so they can give money to canonical in the flavor bucket if they want, but it's not guaranteed to get to us
<Unit193> Heh, so Xfce is still the answer.
<pleia2> if they want to specifically to go to help us, probably
<pleia2> but we should talk about it, whether we do want to request anything
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-22
<elfy> ochosi bluesabre - any idea as to what's happening with the greeter getting into saucy?
<ochosi> elfy: tbh no
<elfy> ok :)
<ochosi> i heard something about a sponsored upload, but that was all i heard...
<elfy> what do you want to do about testing it? I can write a testcase this weekend using the ppa etc if you want - then the test is there 
<ochosi> yeah, i guess it wouldn't hurt
<ochosi> but theming won't work 100%, because my mantras for getting the artwork-package updated so far haven't been heard
<elfy> mmm
<ochosi> but let's see whether bluesabre shows up and has more infos
<elfy> ok - I'll wait for the moment - it won't take long to write - it'll take much longer to decide if and when we are going to test it :)
 * Noskcaj is away: I'm either at school or soccer. or i just don't like you.
<Noskcaj> stupid xchat
<scottbomb> Hey all. I'm testing ISO for Saucy. Isn't Tumbler supposed to be installed by default?
<scottbomb> In Thunar, there is a picture of a black box with the letters "JPG" where it should show a thumbnail image. I'm just not clear on which package to file a bug against. Image thumbnails are appearing in Ristretto. 
<scottbomb> Nevermind. I was browsing on a network share and there is a setting in Thunar one has to activate to make it show thumbnails for files in directories that are not local
<ochosi> scottbomb: indeed, i'd say that default setting makes sense (otherwise it can lead to a lot of latency when browsing remote stuff)
<Noskcaj> can someone confirm this for xubuntu bug 1193716
<ubottu> bug 1193716 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "Monitor turns off after 10 minutes of inactivity despite the fact that XScreensave has been removed from Suacy Build" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1193716
#xubuntu-devel 2013-06-23
<elfy> anyone having trouble with the iso - 2 sticks - today's daily - boots up fine but refuses to run installer
<elfy> tried it on lappy and this machine - ubiquity starts to run then stops
<elfy> nvm - found the bug now 
<Noskcaj> elfy, link me the bug
<elfy> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1193526
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1193526 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Clicking "Install Xubuntu 13.10" in live session doesn't work." [Undecided,Confirmed]
<Noskcaj> so only live session?
<elfy> well 
<elfy> you could fail every single thing if it fails to install :)
<Noskcaj> yep
<Noskcaj> i mean does the version in the installer standalone still working
<elfy> what do you mean? 
<Noskcaj> Is the bug only in live session or does it affect the ubiquity standalone too (the screen that appears if you do nothing at startup)
<elfy> don't get the same screen if you use unetbootin
<elfy> the ubuntu thing crashes
<elfy> try the install option rather than try and it boots to first screen then does nothing else
<Noskcaj> elfy, what screen was "first install screen"? i'm just waiting for the mp3 bug to stop lagging my VM
<elfy> lol
<elfy> the choose language one 
<elfy> but you only get that if you don't boot to the live session
<ochosi> any non-english native speakers here who wanna contribute two lines of translations?
<smartboyhw> ochosi, Chinese?:P
<ochosi> smartboyhw: what kind of chinese? :)
<ochosi> we have https://github.com/ochosi/light-locker/blob/master/po/zh_CN.po
<smartboyhw> ochosi, how about zh_TW?
<smartboyhw> or zh_HK?
<ochosi> and https://github.com/ochosi/light-locker/blob/master/po/zh_HK.po
<smartboyhw> I can do all:P
<ochosi> awesome :)
<ochosi> and https://github.com/ochosi/light-locker/blob/master/po/zh_TW.po
<ochosi> lines 53 and 58
<ochosi> you can either just paste the lines here and i'll push it or send it via email
<ochosi> m, pull request is even nicer ofc ;)
<smartboyhw> ochosi, LO
<smartboyhw> :P
<smartboyhw> I will do the _CN and _TW later.
<ochosi> right, we're gonna do the release today
<smartboyhw> ochosi, oh oh...
<ochosi> but it's only a development release
<ochosi> so it's no rush
 * smartboyhw does it now then:P
<ochosi> you can just do it whenever you have time
<ochosi> and then just do another pull-request
<smartboyhw> ochosi, _CN proposed.
<smartboyhw> But for TW, I think you can just copy it from HK.
<smartboyhw> Not much big differences there.
<smartboyhw> And you can release it! :)
<ochosi> would be good if you could do another pull-request for TW, even it's the same as HK
<ochosi> cause you're at least a native speaker
<ochosi> if i do that, it looks odd
<smartboyhw> ochosi, done.
<ochosi> smartboyhw: thanks a bunch!
<bluesabre> micahg: lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.6 is in debian unstable, any way we can import that or do I need to do a sponsored upload?
<bluesabre> ochosi, elfy ^
<bluesabre> I've been away for a while, hopefully going to get back into the groove of things today
<elfy> bluesabre: thanks :)
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: are you still working on a menu editor?
<micahg> bluesabre: either sync or merge
<knome> o/
<Unit193> knome: Heh, the wiki page you linked to does say leafpad is default. :P
<knome> well done.
<knome> fixed.
<Unit193> "Packages that do not use GTK toolkit" technically rule out terminal programs, but meh.  "Packages that use interpreted languages" rules out at least pastebinit, and most Ubuntu tools/programs.
<Unit193> But anywho...
<knome> we're going to undergo another SD review. when i post the first draft, can you propose that as an additional change and for feedback?
<Unit193> I'd say yes, but I'll forget, my head isn't on right.  Sure, i'll do that.
<knome> if i remember myself, i'll remind
<elfy> sd review? is that aba? 
<knome> abba?
<bluesabre> abbba?
<bluesabre> OvenWerks: Yes, MenuLibre
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: missed you again :) I am assuming it deals with the user's directory menu config. Are you able to do layout changes?
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-16
<ochosi> elfy: morning!
<ochosi> the 25th (wednesday) would work well for me (re: meeting)
<elfy> 1000UTC?
<elfy> ochosi: ^^
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> well, "ten" utc not "thousand" utc ;)
<ochosi> does that work for you?
<elfy> yep - mail sent/wiki changed - just needs adding to the calendar :)
<Noskcaj> elfy, Is there anything important i need to be there for? it's after "computers off time" for me
<elfy> Noskcaj: not that I'm awqare of - we moved to fortnightly :)
<elfy> bbl
<Noskcaj> Something to discuss: weather plugin is going to need patches in trusty, precise, and utopic by 2014-10-07 for a weather api change
<ochosi> Noskcaj: could you give me a hand in removing a patch from a package?
<ochosi> basically it's explained here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xdg-utils/+bug/1330386
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1330386 in xdg-utils (Ubuntu) "The xserver-blanking patch in Ubuntu duplicates code" [Undecided,New]
<Noskcaj> ok
<ochosi> but i need to provide a patch for dropping the patch i guess
<Noskcaj> just edit the bzr branch
<ochosi> (it just adds duplicate code, so i guess the patch-content was integrated upstream but downstream never dropped the patch)
<Noskcaj> I have to go, be back in 10min
<Noskcaj> k back
<ochosi> righty
<ochosi> so it's clear what has to be done?
<ochosi> (just drop the patch i linked to and everything that goes along with that)
<ochosi> i will propose a separate branch/patch for fixing xdg-screensaver for xubuntu
<Noskcaj> yep
<Noskcaj> just change the series file and make a changelog entry
<knome> ochosi, what's the status of our black-screen SRU...?
<ochosi> Noskcaj: thanks!
<ochosi> knome: dunno, same as last time i looked i'd guess
 * ochosi thought he was subscribed to the SRU bugs
<knome> bluesabre, what's the status of the black-screen SRU? do you need any help, or is it progressing?
<ochosi> Noskcaj: btw, seb128 said he'd sponsor that change, so please ping me when you have a branch ready that drops the superfluous patch
<Noskcaj> ochosi, i was doing it? ok. i'll get it done tomorrow
<ochosi> Noskcaj: nvm, already got seb128 on it
<Noskcaj> ok
<ochosi> so i guess we'll have fixed blanking again soon
<bluesabre> ochosi: subscribed you
<bluesabre> waiting for SRU verification
<bluesabre> knome: added "verification-needed" tags to the bugs today... somehow I thought that when bugs were added to -proposed, they would get reviewed and move along after the 7-day waiting period.
<bluesabre> knome: subscribed you as well
<ochosi> thanks bluesabre 
<knome> bluesabre, mhm
<brainwash> I'm wondering.. bug 1054299 has high priority and is security related
<ubottu> bug 1054299 in xfce4-session (Ubuntu) "Race condition in suspend scripts reveals desktop" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1054299
<brainwash> it affects two xfce packages
<brainwash> and so far the report has been basically ignored
<brainwash> should it be added to the current development blueprint?
<bluesabre> probably, this is my first time seeing this bug
<brainwash> it might not be reproducible anymore now that we use light-locker
<brainwash> but ignoring a high priority bug report is somewhat bad
<bluesabre> yeah
<elfy> knome: ty :)
<elfy> hi GridCube 
<GridCube> hi elfy 
<jjfrv8> elfy, quick question on the system-config-printer testcase?
<slickymasterWork> hey jjfrv8 
<jjfrv8> hey, slickymasterWork 
<slickymasterWork> how's everything?
<jjfrv8> not too bad here, how you?
<elfy> jjfrv8: ask it - I'm in and out atm :)
<jjfrv8> It looks like the "personal default printer" icon is now a red heart instead of a yellow star. Is that worth filing a bug against the testcase?
<slickymasterWork> the same, it seems that summer finally arrived for good
<jjfrv8> slickymasterWork, yeah, same here.
<slickymasterWork> where jjfrv8 ,in settings manager -> hardware?
<jjfrv8> system-config-printer
<elfy> jjfrv8: you can do - I'll do it at some point - didn't notice tbh
<slickymasterWork> me neither :P
<elfy> hang on
<elfy> I added one just now and it was a yellow star
<slickymasterWork> yeaps, same here ?!
<slickymasterWork> could it be related to your theme and/or icons jjfrv8?
<jjfrv8> hmm, this was a fresh install of today's daily, but it's the same on my production T box as well.
<jjfrv8> wait, maybe it was because I was using a wireless printer in one case and CUPS-PDF in another.
<jjfrv8> I don't have a USB printer
<slickymasterWork> jjfrv8, I'm with a local USB printer
<jjfrv8> I think that might be the diff. And I'm too lazy to drag my printer to another room and cable it up right now :)
<jjfrv8> but I will check that at some point
<slickymasterWork> ok :)
<elfy> well that was fun
<slickymasterWork> wb elfy 
<elfy> ty
<saqman2060> Hello Xubuntu developers. I have an interest in the windows snap feature the ubuntu-unity uses that is applied by compiz. I wanted to have that same feature  in the Xubuntu, or in xfce4. This feature is very conveinient for window placement. I installed compiz on Xubuntu utopia 14.10 and I am able to use the snap feature. However, I understand this is package project that someone needs to manage. Is this a possible endeavor?
<ochosi> xfwm4 already has that feature
<ochosi> so no need to do anything about it, actually
<ochosi> it's possible that it's not activated by default though
<saqman2060> How do you activate it?
<ochosi> settings manager > window manager tweaks > automatically tile windows...
<ochosi> i think you have to deactivate the options in  settings manager > window manager > advanced > wrap workspaces... for it though
<saqman2060> Wrap workspaces is not checked. The option to activate windows snapping is selected, however it did not perform as intended.
<saqman2060> I actually had to resize them
<saqman2060> I will remove and try it again. Get back to you with my results
<ochosi> either way, as this is more of a support question now than a development discussion, let's continue in #xfce
<ochosi> bbl
<saqman2060> Thanks for responding ochosi
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-17
<ochosi> just as a notice, i'll be offline from tomorrow until the weekend
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-18
<Unit193> Do we plan to keep the desktop icons so large? (48)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Going to poke elfy about the SRU testing?
<bluesabre> of course
<bluesabre> ;)
<bluesabre> forestpiskie, finally making some progress on the black screen bug
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-power-manager/+bug/1303736
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1303736 in xfce4-power-manager "[SRU] Black screen after wakeup from suspending by closing the laptop lid" [Undecided,New]
<bluesabre> both xfce4-power-manager and light-locker-settings packages are on their way to -proposed
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-power-manager/+bug/1326740
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1326740 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] Please backport xfce4-power-manager 1.2.0-3ubuntu6 to trusty" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-locker-settings/+bug/1326741
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1326741 in light-locker-settings (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] Please backport light-locker-settings 1.2.1-0ubuntu2 to trusty" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<bluesabre> let me know what I can do to help organize testing :)
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-power-manager/+bugs?field.status%3Alist=NEW&orderby=-id&start=0 Fun times.
<Unit193> So both of those packages are built and waiting in proposed.
<Unit193> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/PerformingSRUVerification
<Unit193> xubutrello: card 30 comment Uploaded to trusty-proposed and awaiting sru-verification.
<xubutrello> Commenting on card ... 
<xubutrello> Added "uploaded to trusty-proposed and awaiting sru-verification." comment to "black screen bug" card
<Unit193> slickymaster, knome: Did I forget to ping you about the updates in your system that allows you to verify the docs again? :)
<elfy> bluesabre: not sure what you want any mail to the list to say re SRU - so just go ahead and say it to the list yourself :)
<knome> Unit193, probably
<Unit193> Well ping.
<knome> well i'm off soon until monday.
<knome> and with that, i'm off
<knome> hf and ttyl
<Unit193> FTR: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1000416/comments/4
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1000416 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] Thunar Dropbox" [Wishlist,In progress]
<ali1234> is there any way we could ship this by default: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/gnotifier/
<GridCube> i doub't any addon is "shipeable"
<Unit193> ali1234: Normally yes, but since this is Ubuntu rather than Debian, not so much.  At least it's GPLv3.
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-19
<Noskcaj-school> ochosi, eric_the_idiot_ : I've looked at the upower patch some more, for it to apply properly we need to make it the first xubuntu-only patch we apply. Then the only changes needed are the logind patch's configure.ac and 4 of the shutdown hunks
<Noskcaj-school> However i can't do the shutdown part as i have no idea what the patch is doing and how to refresh it
<bluesabre> Unit193: thoughts? anything that should be modified? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm-gtk-greeter/+bug/1331871
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1331871 in lightdm-gtk-greeter (Ubuntu) "[SRU] Please backport lightdm-gtk-greeter 1.8.5 to trusty" [Undecided,New]
<Unit193> bluesabre: I'd think it looks fine, though is it miss something to show up on their radar?
<bluesabre> yeah, wanted to make it good before I starting subscribing folks
<Unit193> I'd suppose that testcase will also make it so they can reproduce the problem.
<bluesabre> right
<Unit193> Then looks good to me.
<bluesabre> hopefully these will be painless to get into trusty
<bluesabre> catching up on sleep tonight, bbl
<bluesabre> night folks
<Unit193> bluesabre: G'night.
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~mniess/ubuntu/trusty/ibus/fix-lp1240198/+merge/223651
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-keyboard/+bug/1240198
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1240198 in indicator-keyboard (Ubuntu) "wrong keyboard layout active after booting into desktop, after upgrade to saucy" [High,Confirmed]
<Unit193> Logan_: Not sure if you were interested, but found the right person and he did a NMU, fixing 3 Debian bugs (including an RC bug) so that's taken care of and there's no more delta. \o/
<Logan_> Unit193: woot
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-20
<benzidirk> Hi guys. Can I ask a question. I installed Xubuntu 14.04 on my Macbook White Late 2009 Model
<benzidirk> It's a bit laggish. Overall performance is not great. Sometimes the mouse moves like crazy slow.. Extremely laggish
<benzidirk> Is there anything I can try to help the situation?
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-21
<bluesabre> 6
<Unit193> +N  desktop-guide/po/am.po
<Noskcaj_> Has any update happened that would be causing nothing to appear after login
<Noskcaj_> 14.10
<Unit193> I don't know of one, but alas, I am not running Utopic.  Try #ubuntu+1 perhaps?
<Noskcaj_> ok
#xubuntu-devel 2014-06-22
<ochosi> hi everyone, i'm back
<Noskcaj> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> hey Noskcaj 
<ochosi> what's up?
<Noskcaj> not much
<Noskcaj> just trying to get the stupid devel pc to work
<Noskcaj> you?
<elfy> hi ochosi :)
<ochosi> i was in the mountains
<ochosi> hence no connectivity for a few days
<ochosi> just saying, the upcoming week will be a bit difficult again, moving countries again
<elfy> okeydoke
<ochosi> anyway, saw the sru made progress, so that's good to hear
<ochosi> thanks a bunch for that bluesabre 
<ochosi> (and everyone else involved)
<ochosi> what else did i miss?
<elfy> tumbleweed mostly from what I can see :)
<elfy> I've seen about 10 lines in here since you said "just as a notice, i'll be offline from tomorrow until the weekend"
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> well could be that i missed stuff on other channels
<ochosi> or that you decided to create a channel where you can nag about me :)
<elfy> :)
<elfy> I'd do that in here :p
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> bluesabre: reminder about the upload-rights application
<elfy> ochosi: you got any idea when the blueprints have to be finalised and approved by -release?
<ochosi> elfy: not really tbh
<ochosi> knome: how did you handle that ^ ?
<elfy> ochosi: knome is off till Monday afaik
<ochosi> ah ok
<ochosi> will try to figure that out asap though
<ochosi> having said that, we don't have many workitems on our blueprints for this release anyhow
<bluesabre> ochosi: been making steady progress on that
<bluesabre> will finish today
<ochosi> nice!
<ochosi> just thought as i had been away i'd put up a reminder
<bluesabre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeanDavis/DeveloperApplication
<bluesabre> just gotta add fluff to the bottom
<bluesabre> ochosi, elfy, want to brainstorm together today about what we want to add to the blueprints for this release
<bluesabre> I'd be game
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> I'll be around most of the day
<bluesabre> brb, starbucks run
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'll run off for lunch in a bit, but i'll also be back after that
<ochosi> bbabl
<Unit193> ochosi: I could use an Xubu ack from you, but not sure it's needed. :P
<knome> i'm back
<bluesabre> wb knome
<knome> ta ta bluesabre 
<elfy> hi knome wb
<knome> ochosi, technically by feature freeze, but anything that suits you
<knome> hey elfy, and ta :)
<elfy> bluesabre: I'm about off and on all day - when ochosi is I'm game for that 
<Unit193> knome: We should review blueprints. :(
<knome> Unit193, yeah? who we? :P
<bluesabre> knome, well, now we have me/ochosi/Unit193/elfy/you
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> basically the XPL should approve the direction
<Unit193> knome: Okay.
<ochosi> Unit193: what xubuntu ack where?
<Unit193> ochosi: lp #1000416, unless I'm wrong?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1000416 in Ubuntu "[needs-packaging] Thunar Dropbox" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1000416
<ochosi> done
<ochosi> thanks Unit193 
<Unit193> Thank you.
<ochosi> wasn't aware of that bugreport
<ochosi> bluesabre: great, that (someone having trouble with nouveau drivers) is exactly what i hate about the black-screen bug. people just think any bug with suspending is related to this one... :/
<ochosi> thanks for debugging that though with the user
<Unit193> Same thing for the other package I presume?
<ochosi> other package?
<bluesabre> ochosi: yup
<ochosi> elfy: around?
<elfy> for ~ 10 minutes - be about properly in an hour or so
<ochosi> hmkay
<ochosi> well let's start with the 10minutes then
<ochosi> i guess we have everything bp-related on trello already?
<elfy> afaik we have
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> as i said, we don't have many blueprints at the moment
<elfy> yep
<ochosi> i guess the two transitions we have ahead this cycle is upower0.99 and systemd
<ochosi> apart from that, so far we haven't really put down any features
<elfy> not sure that systemd will be this cycle 
<ochosi> right
<elfy> it's about and usable is all I think
<ochosi> hm, well i guess we don't have to do much about that
<ochosi> there are more problems with upower
<ochosi> because xfce4-session needs to be patched
<ochosi> the thing is: i'd want to get rid of light-locker-settings in 14.10 or 15.04 the latest
<ochosi> include everything we need in xfce4-power-manager
<ochosi> but then again, this will be done upstream, that's why it's not a workitem here
<ochosi> elfy: if you wanna test the new power-manager by the way, would be great to get more feedback on it
<ochosi> i can see that we get some ppa or something set up
<elfy> needs to be somewhere even if it's not a workitem so the team know about what's going on
<elfy> I'd obviously be happy to do that - better on ppa I guess
<ochosi> Unit193: could you set up something daily for xfpm?
<elfy> though how much testing we'd see by testers I'm not very convinced over
<elfy> dead as a dodo - seems to be *buntu not just us though
<ochosi> yeah, no worries
<ochosi> the next release is no LTS
<elfy> ochosi: I can though test it on hardware - laptop and desktop 
<ochosi> i understand that having a team is great, but as long as at least we ourselves test the things we work on a lot, that's already okayish
<elfy> :)
<ochosi> yes, actually for xfpm laptop+desktop would be great
<ochosi> i only have a laptop, so..
<elfy> yep
<ochosi> just recently included some optimizations for desktops
<ochosi> the other thing we could mention is the upcoming parole release that we've started working towards
<elfy> cool
<ochosi> bluesabre: any other ideas for blueprint items etc?
<bluesabre> display settings?
<ochosi> right, that too
<bluesabre> any date yet for 4.12? still up in the air, I presume?
<ochosi> but other than the upstream work we're doing :)
<ochosi> i talked to NSchermer a longer while ago (~3weeks) and we're targetting october
<ochosi> which is too late for 14.10
<ochosi> but nvm, i'd say
<ochosi> i'm hoping that quite a bit of hacking is going down in the summer
<elfy> I've gtg - back in a while 
<ochosi> ok, ttyl elfy 
<ochosi> bluesabre: mind to add parole and display-settings to the trello board?
<bluesabre> sure
<bluesabre> oh, and keyboard overlay, I might get to that shortly
<bluesabre> been pretty motivated lately :)
<ochosi> and then i guess we should create daily recipes for these items and throw them at our xubuntu-dev PPA
<ochosi> hehe, yeah, quite nice actually
<ochosi> i've also trying to get things done
<ochosi> +been
<ochosi> what's the state of the display dialog btw?
<ochosi> i haven't been able to test multihead for a few weeks now...
<bluesabre> just some testing and minor fixes left
<Unit193> ochosi: Is imported?
<bluesabre> its more reliable now than its been before
<ochosi> Unit193: please pleeeease, you have to be more verbose with me...
<bluesabre> been using vbox to test crazy multihead (4-8 displays) setups
<ochosi> bluesabre: awesome sauce. not sure btw if we shouldn't postpone the cairo-drawn minimal dialog a bit to get what we have out
<Unit193> I have to English?
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> if you get to it, great, if not, great too :D
<ochosi> Unit193: :) thing is 1) i haven't been around for a few days, then i always feel a bit lost in the beginning
<ochosi> 2) i'm not a mindreader and i don't always have everything nicely organized in my head
<ochosi> so 1) what other package and 2) daily setup for xfpm and display dialog?
<Unit193> Heh, my brain is dead too.  Is Xfpm imported into LP somewhere?
<ochosi> ah :)
<ochosi> tbh i'm not sure
<ochosi> it has been dead for so long, that i could imagine that there is some dead import somewhere
<ochosi> but you'll see that anyhow when you try to set up the import ;)
<Unit193> Also, I can't publish to -dev, so...
<bluesabre> looks like vcs-imports are blocked
<bluesabre> https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/xfce4-power-manager/trunk
<ochosi> Unit193: can you set it up so either me or bluesabre can copy it there?
<ochosi> i mean the recipe
<bluesabre> recipes are easy, but that import needs to be cleared
<Unit193> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/73117280/vcs-imports-xfce4-power-manager-trunk.log how useful.
<Unit193> bluesabre: 0.3.0+date! :P
 * ochosi looks
<bluesabre> I used to do version numbers like that
<bluesabre> until launchpad told me no
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> bluesabre: It's because they're cheating, it's annoying.  You can set it as non-native, but LP forces daily builds as 3 (native) which can't have a dash.
<ochosi> so, err, what can we do to resolve that?
<Unit193> Poke #launchpad?
 * ochosi join #launchpad
<ochosi> huhu
<ochosi> i guess that channel won't be very active on a sunday...
<Unit193> Well, and other pkg is xfdash. :P
<ochosi> yeah, but frankly, i'm fine with that one in a PPA for now
<ochosi> it's still in active development and hasn't really "settled"
<Unit193> Alrighty-o.
<ochosi> it didn't feel "ready" last time i tried it
<Unit193> Wasn't sure if 0.2.0 was a sign or not.
<Unit193> Then, I'll forget about that one, cool.
<ochosi> yeah, could be, but we should get it some testing first
<ochosi> haven't even tried it myself yet...
<Unit193> Noskcaj: Around?  xfce4-dev-tools in Debian, I'm pretty sure the homepage isn't "foo-projects.org", whereas http://users.xfce.org/~benny/projects/xfce4-dev-tools/ might not be the best, it's sure better. :)
<Unit193> 4.11.0 is in Debian Experimental, too.
<ochosi> good
<Unit193> 4.11.0 also hit exp, but that'd have to be merged.
<elfy> ochosi: back if you need me still
<ochosi> i guess we'll try to set up PPAs for you for parole, xfce4-power-manager, xfce4-settings
<Unit193> >_<
<Unit193> 4.11.0 of xfce4-session, I need sleep.
<ochosi> we'll sort that out with Unit193 and bluesabre i guess
<Unit193> ochosi: Didn't you already have a parole one?
<elfy> ochosi: ok
<ochosi> Unit193: yeah, there's one for parole already
<elfy> ppa?
<ochosi> but i want everything in one place when we ask people to test
<elfy> aah - saved me typing that out :)
<ochosi> heh
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> well, i guess i can always copy over packages manually from the daily PPA to testing
<bluesabre> parole-daily is in my personal https://launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/+archive/xfce-4.12-daily
<bluesabre> (ignore that crap panel build)
<ochosi> actually you could move your stuff to xubuntu-dev, now that you have access...
<ochosi> doesn't really make sense to keep things too personal anymore i guess
<ochosi> after all, you *are* the xubuntu-dev lead ;)
<bluesabre> yeah, not sure we have anything really fitting of daily builds
<elfy> :)
<bluesabre> I'll consider transitioning a few over today
<bluesabre> still working on fixing this place up :)
<ochosi> heh sure
<elfy> bluesabre: just keep it quiet till the XPL disappears for days again :p
 * ochosi cuts some slack and hands it to bluesabre 
<ochosi> eeeeh, do i sense some sarcasm there? :p
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> at least i announce my disappearance
<bluesabre> :D
 * elfy could have just sent some slack - I've got it all packed in easy to handle quantities :)
 * ochosi cuts himself some slack
<elfy> ochosi: ha ha ha 
 * bluesabre has a slack sandwich
<elfy> been cutting slack for ~40 years so have some kicking about 
<ochosi> yummy
<elfy> I just realised that I completely screwed up the meeting this week 
<elfy> set it for the 25th :| 
<elfy> ochosi: meant to set it for tomorrow for you 
<Unit193> ochosi: Had you reviewed the proposals for Utopic?
<elfy> and slickymaster asked me if I could move it and I STILL didn't notice 
<ochosi> elfy: oops, didn't notice that myself...
<ochosi> i guess it's a bit late to change that now
<elfy> I guess so 
<ochosi> i'll try to be there, but as i'm moving on friday, i can#
<ochosi> t promise
<elfy> yea
<ochosi> only so few days left here..
<elfy> you're choosing the next one 
<ochosi> Unit193: which ones?
<ochosi> elfy: well that'll be comparably easy, as i'll be home..
<elfy> :)
<Unit193> ochosi: Mainly the ones that'd touch the seed, want that uploaded.  Desktop revamp/inxi/hexchat.
<Unit193> elfy: We could actually test without the new seed, were we going to test apt-get method?
<elfy> inxi is great - till people use it in channel
<elfy> Unit193: remind me about that 
<Unit193> /exec - -o inxi -c0 -Gxxx | pastebinit
<Unit193> elfy: Hmm?
<elfy> Unit193: yes - you know, I know - not everyone does
<Unit193> Hah. :D
<ochosi> ok, first off, whatever happened to testing -core?
<ochosi> then, could you link me up Unit193 ?
<Unit193> ochosi: Was stalled on uploading seed, which was stalled on proposals.
<Unit193> But, if we don't want to test  apt-get install --no-install-recommends  as it's not really the supported way to install...
<elfy> oh right 
<ochosi> remind me, why was it stalled on proposals?
<Unit193> Because inxi and hexchat would be seed changes.
<Unit193> (If accepted, and the second one really should be. :P )
<ochosi> right, but how does that affect core though?
<elfy> hexchat is good - but I wonder how responsive devs are for it
<ochosi> frankly, i have no idea how active xchat is
<ochosi> haven't used it in sooo long...
<Unit193> elfy: Better than ones that haven't done a thing in years.  The maintainer is good, talked to him before.
<elfy> I think xchat is moribund 
<ochosi> Unit193: that sounds good
<Unit193> ochosi: Oh, I don't either, but built-in SASL?  I'm sold already.
<ochosi> Unit193: didn't you write a proposal for hexchat before? link plz?
<Unit193> Only reason not to is xchat-indicator, and that could be fixed with https://launchpad.net/hexchat-indicator
<elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/Hexchat
<elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/Inxi
<Unit193> Sniped.
<elfy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Utopic/DesktopLayoutProposal
<ochosi> so xchat pulls in the indicator by default?
<elfy> Unit193: hexchat at the moment - alt+a fails to set away
<elfy> and ctrl+f does funky things with window sizing
<ochosi> Unit193: so wait, does xchat actually set the default channel to #xubuntu?
<Unit193> https://github.com/hexchat/hexchat/issues/1008
<Unit193> ochosi: No.
<Unit193> ochosi: That was simply a question that was answered.
<elfy> Unit193: yes I know - bug 1328087 as well :)
<ubottu> bug 1328087 in hexchat (Ubuntu) "Alt + A does not set away" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1328087
<elfy> bug 1328089
<ubottu> bug 1328089 in hexchat (Ubuntu) "Ctrl + F resizes window" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1328089
<elfy> that last one is really annoying
<Unit193> elfy: Figured you would, not sure if reporting to LP will help. :P
<elfy> I know - but people installing it *here* are less likely to go looking at github ;)
<ochosi> Unit193: hmm, blows a bit that we can't do that, but i guess since we weren't able to do that before...
<Unit193> Indeed.  Well, TingPing is a hexchat dev, and commented stating that was indeed a bug, so there's hope.
<Unit193> ochosi: Actually, since you know the desktop team, can you poke them about that plugin I linked to? :D
<ochosi> Unit193: i can try to get to that tomorrow (today that channel is dead anyway)
<ochosi> feel free to remind me though if i forget
<Unit193> Of course, all Canonical would be.
<Unit193> Sure, I will.
<elfy> ochosi Unit193 - commenting in the github bug for alt+a - shall I mention we're thinking about seeding it
<Unit193> Is there a reason to?
<elfy> might make them think about fixing it sooner :p
<ochosi> yeah, although some ppl take that the wrong way
<ochosi> pressure != motivation
<ochosi> so i'd rather not apply distro-pressure
<ochosi> in case we get closer to the release, we can always kindly ask with reference to us seeding it
<elfy> yea I understand that - wasn't going to say "We were thinking of seeding it but we aren't if something as simple as this doesn't work"
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> in that case, i'm also fine with referencing our plans now
<elfy> too late - just left a 'it's broken in xubuntu' for the moment
<ochosi> we can always add that comment a bit later
<elfy> yep 
<elfy> not sure what to do about the odd resizing thing though - guess I should report it there
<ochosi> sounds like a plan
<ochosi> Unit193: does inxi only work for graphics card?
<ochosi> or did you just mention that as an example
<Unit193> ochosi: Haha, no.  That was a good example because of all the problems with them.  Install it and run -h
<ochosi> that sounds like it makes a lot of sense
<ochosi> actually both of your specs
<Unit193> I kind of packaged it thinking of #xubuntu. :P
<ochosi> awesome
<elfy> hadn't noticed that ... :p
<ochosi> Unit193: mind to add the specs to the agenda?
<ochosi> i personally think we should go ahead with both, but i'd like to give the team a chance to raise concerns if anybody has any
<Unit193> I can once I make coffee, if the wiki is in a good mood.
<ochosi> nice
<ochosi> thanks Unit193 
<ochosi> brb
<elfy> Unit193: https://github.com/hexchat/hexchat/issues/1030
<elfy> well - that's refreshing ... a comment 5 minutes after I posted it
 * Unit193 clicks again.
<ochosi> brb
<ochosi> bluesabre: speaking of feeling motivated, we could also look into building a UI for panel-switch by ali1234 
<ochosi> unless lderan gets to it first ;)
<bluesabre> ochosi: got something for me to base it on/link to code?
<ali1234> https://github.com/ali1234/panel-switch
<ali1234> it's only a python proof of concept
<bluesabre> ok, good, I <3 python
<bluesabre> gotta run for a bit, bbl
<ochosi> ok tty in a bit bluesabre 
<ochosi> Unit193: no excuse anymore now: https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/xfce4-power-manager/trunk
<ochosi> ;)
<Unit193> Bummer.
<Unit193> bluesabre: ^
<Unit193> :--D
<Unit193> ochosi: So, the idea is to leave the patches in and hope they don't break?
<ochosi> what patches?
<ochosi> for xfpm?
<ochosi> if you're referring to xfpm, the idea is to drop all ubuntu patches, because they have been taken care of upstream
<Unit193> Oh?  Hm.
<ochosi> which is one more reason why we want this release in xubuntu (kill the delta)
<Noskcaj> ochosi, Should i be packaging the version in debian vcs then?
<ochosi> not sure what the status of 1.3.0 is in debian
<ochosi> or whether debian wants the development release
<ochosi> i mostly wanted to enable xubuntu to do more testing
<Noskcaj> debian will be uploading it soon because upower 0.99
<Noskcaj> same for us
<Unit193> Thus we wait for Debian to release, of PPA it until then.
 * Unit193 calls not it, to panel.
<Unit193> ochosi: Sooo, where should I dump it anywho?
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/staging That's where I jammed it for now.
<ochosi> i guess we should stage it in a personal PPA of yours, then test a little then move over to the xubuntu-dev PPA
<ochosi> perfect
<Unit193> Might be handy to keep it someplace I can upload/change it. ;)
<ochosi> indeed, which is why you should become member of -dev
<Unit193> But. but, but. :(
<Unit193> You'll like this, when I went to commit changes, automatically typed `git commit` before I noticed. :D
<ochosi> hihi
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-15
<bluesabre> micahg, Unit193: reviewed the greeter packaging again, fixed some paths.  Will follow debian and install the base template in /usr, will migrate existing config to /etc
<ochosi> hi bluesabre 
<bluesabre> debian to ubuntu: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11718760/
<bluesabre> ubuntu to ubuntu: http://paste.ubuntu.com/11718764/
<bluesabre> this should be good to roll tonight
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<ochosi> any plans for when to schedule the next meeting?
<bluesabre> I'll schedule it tonight for what looks to be the weekend
<ochosi> mhm, ok
<bluesabre> http://doodle.com/vmzrybyw9r9929wt#table
<bluesabre> there's a few common times that work for a several people
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> btw, you didn't distinguish sat/sun
<ochosi> might make a diff, but anyway, we'll have to see
<bluesabre> knome did it
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> probably because we didn't want 168 options
<ochosi> yeah, the times are fairly granular
<knome> ochosi, didn't the poll description say you can write further comments/exceptions to comments :P
<bluesabre> "read poll description?! pah!"
<knome> yeah, why cares about instructions
<knome> before it's too late anyway :)
<knome> think: you buy a new gaming console, do you read the manual or boot it and start playing?
<bluesabre> when I was a kid...
<bluesabre> the manual for games or consoles was the best part about the drive home
<knome> haha
<knome> yeah...
<bluesabre> "32-bit graphics, O.M.G."
<knome> back when they had manuals that actually included something else than the safety precautions and a note to go online for support
<knome> i remember reading the transport tycoon manual so much it started wearing - before i could even get to play it
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> the golden year
<bluesabre> s
<knome> yep...
<ochosi> just installed LO 5.0
<ochosi> meh icon changes :/
<knome> heh
<ochosi> well it's still b3, i hope not much else changes
<ochosi> but new items in the toolbars
<ochosi> geez, "insert footnote" and "insert endnote"
<knome> :)
<ochosi> how in the world can someone do a meaningful distinction on 24x24
 * knome shrugs
<knome> maybe one can't, but who cares?
<ochosi> if we could modify the items shown by default in those toolbars, that one would go
<knome> i likely would vote against that
<knome> because really, people are clingy
<knome> especially non-high-tech-level ones
<knome> you simply don't touch their defaults :)
<ochosi> i don't think we can influence those defaults
<knome> no, but even if we could, i wouldn't want to do it
<ochosi> unless there's an rc file or something we can ship which defines a default there
<ochosi> but i don't suppose so
<knome> but anyway, i'm off
<ochosi> hf then
<knome> will be back late in the evening
<knome> i'll try to :P
<knome> ttyl
<drc> clear
<Unit193> https://packages.qa.debian.org/f/file-roller/news/20150615T132305Z.html ;D
<ochosi> lol, nice one
<ochosi> gotta love that changelog
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> ochosi: well... we can probably modify defaults in LO, but probably should not
<bluesabre> at the same time, really both footnote and endnote in the toolbar? D:
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-16
<ochosi> bluesabre: yeah, both. also more items for change tracking/recording there. but yeah, i agree we maybe shouldnt touch those defaults
<bluesabre> looks like monday 10utc might be the winner
<Unit193> :D
<bluesabre> feh is on the live image now, just need to patch ubiquity
<bluesabre> !team Xubuntu Community Meeting scheduled for Monday, June 22 at 10:00 UTC
<ubottu> bluesabre: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<bluesabre> !team: Xubuntu Community Meeting scheduled for Monday, June 22 at 10:00 UTC
<ubottu> bluesabre: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<bluesabre> !team | Xubuntu Community Meeting scheduled for Monday, June 22 at 10:00 UTC
<ubottu> Xubuntu Community Meeting scheduled for Monday, June 22 at 10:00 UTC: bluesabre, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<bluesabre> bot that
<bluesabre> :P
<ochosi> hey folks
<ochosi> bluesabre: isn't light-locker-settings already python3 or python3-ready? we recently received a bugreport about that
<bluesabre> pretty sure its already python3
<ochosi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1465309
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1465309 in light-locker-settings "Port to python3 / python3-psutil" [Undecided,New]
<ochosi> maybe you can quickly verify and set that report to invalid
<ochosi> also, there's still a MR pending ;)
<bluesabre> well, seems like it was still packaged with python2
<bluesabre> works with both though
<ochosi> k
<dkessel> the link from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings to http://xubuntu.org/team-calendar/ is a broken link. the target page does not work
<dkessel> also, good evvening
<dkessel> just wanted to check why monday's meeting does not show up in my calendar. i guess it just wasn't added to the calendar, or something is out of sync...
<bluesabre> dkessel: yeah, I don't have the editable link
<bluesabre> maybe somebody (ochosi) will pm it to me
<Unit193> Lazy bum.
<bluesabre> dkessel: also, thanks for the heads up, fixed the link to the calendar on that page
<Unit193> Oh did I say that out loud? :(
<bluesabre> its valid
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: you have the link?
<Unit193> (I think we all are. >_> )
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> bluesabre: yeah, but I wanted you to do it so I wouldn't have to. :P
<bluesabre> ofc
<bluesabre> give me the link and I will ;)
<pleia2> I've added it to the calendar, will have to ask knome about the website link
<bluesabre> cool, thanks pleia2
<Unit193> :3
<Unit193> pleia2 is always much more useful than I.  In my defence, phone call.  Also figured adding bluesabre makes sense.
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> suddenly, I see it
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> yay, got the greeter to a functional state :)
<bluesabre> can't have the template config in /usr and use mv_conffile to /etc, that bugs out unless that conf file already exists
<bluesabre> so, /etc all the things
<bluesabre> uploading shortly :)
<Unit193> :/
<bluesabre> Unit193: :\
<bluesabre> want to review it?
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~bluesabre/+archive/ubuntu/experimental/+packages 15.10.2 in that ppa is the final, actually working packaging
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-17
<Unit193> Debian #789007 talks about the panel? :D
<ubottu> Debian bug 789007 in xfce4-session "xfce4-session: xfce4 panel items are all one the left" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/789007
<bluesabre> that bug... that's the separator not being an expander
<Unit193> bluesabre: Want to follow up on it?
<bluesabre> yeah, suppose I will
<Unit193> I followed up on one, though that's because I knew the fella on IRC.
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> Thanks a bunch, bluesabre!
<bluesabre> micahg: was there anything else that needed to be done to get packages in the supported list in the xubuntu packageset?
<micahg> bluesabre: me have time to debug the packageset script :(
<bluesabre> micahg: I can poke Laney about it tomorrow, I think he's the one that generally runs the script anyway :)
<micahg> he wanted me to get familiar with it
<micahg> I think we'll need to adjust our seeds for at least a few thinsg
<bluesabre> ok, let me know if there's anything I need to do in there if you don't have the time to adjust it yourself
<bluesabre> ochosi: added a new branch for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1437180 in case you want to start nudging people with it
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1437180 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Desktop Icons show on the install only desktop" [Medium,Triaged]
<bluesabre> and that's quite enough productivity for one night
<bluesabre> nighty all
<Unit193> G'night, bluesabre.
<bluesabre> Unit193: I used a systemctl command for the first time :D
<Unit193> Hah. :P
<bluesabre> (didn't have a choice to test ubiquity in wily)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Both ubot93 and swissbot are both systemd user units.
<bluesabre> :)
<knome> pleia2, wut?
<dkessel> knome: <dkessel> the link from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings to http://xubuntu.org/team-calendar/ is a broken link. the target page does not work
<knome> should work now, somebody changed it
<knome> Xubuntu/Toolbox/Menu (last edited 2015-06-16 23:26:05 by bluesabre)
<dkessel> oh great
<knome> and sorry for overseeing that :)
<dkessel> let's say you left me something to help with ;)
<knome> hehe
<knome> bbl ->
<ochosi> late morning everyone
<sorinb> hello ochosi 
<bluesabre> ochosi: early morning
<bluesabre> see my ping?
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
<ochosi> bluesabre: yes, saw your branch but was too busy throughout the day to do anything about it
<dkessel> good evening krytarik
<krytarik> dkessel: Howdy.
<Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2015-June/038786.html :/
<brainwash> I like it
<Unit193> I do not, and it's a forced move. :/
<Unit193> Hrm, looks like the timeout plugin got updated, but eyes didn't.
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-18
<Unit193> micahg: Heya, sorry to bother, but eyes? :)
<Unit193> Howdy.
<micahg> Unit193: heh, they still need a set of eyes on it :)
<micahg> I'll take a look
<Unit193> Hah, nice.
<micahg> Unit193: which PPA again?
<Unit193> unit193/staging.
<micahg> looking
<micahg> umm...chroot issues, sigh
<micahg> sorry, not looking like I'll be able to do that tonight
<Unit193> Sure, noooo problemo!
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'll try to get some last icons done for LO today, can we then go ahead, do the release and upload?
<ochosi> obviously there are still tons of icons to-do, but i'd like to do a first upload as i
<ochosi> 'm not sure how early i'll be able to focus on the calc icons
<ochosi> also, those are a lot more that need fixing/drawing
<ochosi> writer looks pretty okayish already
<knome> ochosi, ping
<knome> ochosi, did you see this already: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-derivative-guidelines
<knome> i've gathered some more derivatives that claim to be based on xubuntu on that pad
<knome> i think we should try to contact the derivatives generally after we've finished these guidelines
<knome> especially those who use our branding/point to our support resources
<ochosi> hey knome 
<knome> (or generally, break the guidelines)
<ochosi> i've seen it before, not sure whether there have been updates to the guidelines since then
<knome> another pad i literally just set up is http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-related-websites
<knome> no, not the guidelines themself
<ochosi> sounds like a good plan to get an oversight of what's out there
<ochosi> i really haven't looked much myself so far
<knome> so for the localized pages, they are fine, i'd just have thought they would have contacted us
<knome> they use our old logos and stuff, so that's a bit meh
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> maybe we should contact them as well then
<ochosi> guess it could be a generic email we send out to all of them
<knome> yeah
<knome> http://xubuntu.fr/
<knome> there too, they use the new logo, but not in the specified color
<knome> so we don't like that :P
<ochosi> really weird that there are those totally disconnected communities
<knome> yep...
<ochosi> that don't even seem to look for any cooperation or communication with us
<ochosi> basically like hermetic interest groups
<knome> well yeah... what can you do
<knome> i haven't seen many derivative people around here either
<ochosi> not much i guess
<ochosi> we can't get involved personally in all sub-communities as well
<knome> some sure, but considering the list i just put up is the top 5 pages in google for "based on xubuntu"...
<knome> of course we can't, but the sub-communities could get involved with our community
<knome> or at least make themselves visible to us
<knome> i'm sure nobody in the team thinks that derivatives are only a bad thing, or want to stop them from spreading modified versions even
<knome> but some of their actions can turn out meh
<knome> and it could have been avoided with some simple communication
<ochosi> yeah, that's often the case with many things
<knome> so i'd like to (again) encourage people to start communiating with us
<Unit193> Hi.
<knome> hey Unit193.
<knome> aha.. http://www.linuxpusher.com/product/notebook-sticker-xubuntu-grey
<knome> so they sell stickers with the old logo with no permission
<knome> hmm
<ochosi> i guess we could ask them for sticker donations
<ochosi> but then again, who of us would hand them out
<knome> i guess we could ask them to update the logo
<knome> or drop it
<knome> (:
<knome> ^ the nice version
<ochosi> lunchtime, bbabl
<knome> bon appetit
<knome> hello bluesabre 
 * bluesabre is spotted
<knome> yep, no way to escape
<bluesabre> good thing I brought my
<bluesabre> box!
<knome> huhu
<bluesabre> ____
<bluesabre> |:)|
<bluesabre> how's it going knome?
<knome> slowly, but in a good way
<knome> poking this and that as you can see ;)
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> yeah, good work :D
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hiya ochosi
<ochosi> writing from my new laptop for the first time
<ochosi> touchpad is still a bit tricky, seems i touch it frequently when typing
<bluesabre> Mouse and Touchpad > Select touchpad > Disable touchpad while typing
<knome> haha
<knome> touche
<ochosi> yeah, can't seem to find the ideal timeout
<ochosi> and sometimes there are some quirks with keyboard or touchpad becoming inactive for a bit
<knome> which laptop is it again?
<ochosi> xps 13 ubuntu developer edition
<ochosi> (dell)
<knome> mm
<ochosi> bluesabre: do you need anything from my side to get the LO icons on  our iso other than me tagging a first release on github?
<bluesabre> if you wanted to write the debian copyright, that'd be nice ;)
<bluesabre> but no, I think that should be it.  I'll figure out the proper packaging and start the long road to upload
<ochosi> personally, i'd mostly copy-paste it from libreoffice-style-human
<ochosi> yeah, since it's likely going to be a long road it'd be better if we start it now that we still have time
<bluesabre> yeah, but then there's also the attribution bits to you, knome, elementary
<ochosi> elementary bits are already there
<ochosi> humanity is based on elementary after all
<bluesabre> ah
<ochosi> so only the attribution to knome and me (or shimmer) is missing
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> I'll poke you later with the draft
<ochosi> shall we keep the debian stuff in the repo too?
<ochosi> ah ok
<ochosi> perfect
<bluesabre> nah, no need
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> i'm not opposed to keeping things in one place, and the copyright stuff might actually have some benefit
<knome> no reason not to put it in the repository either
<bluesabre> have you shown dan the current version to get his impression?
<bluesabre> we'd be better with an AUTHORS file
<bluesabre> but I can dump the debian packing in there, sure why not :)
<ochosi> i havent shown him the progress
<ochosi> but then again, he didnt seem terribly interested in icons for LO
<ochosi> said something like i could knock myself out, but he/they didn't want any part in it
<bluesabre> cool, thats fine then
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> checked that *before* i started ;)
<ochosi> anyway, they're aware, i might send them a screenshot at some point
<knome> a-CHOO!
<knome> gosh..
<ochosi> bless you
<knome> ta ta
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: btw, i'll soon see whether i have the same icon issues with LO as you since my screen has likely the same px-density as yours now
<bluesabre> ochosi: sure, but you also addressed several of my issues :)
<ochosi> yeah, the insert-field issue is left i guess
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> the highlight icon is quite high up there now
<ochosi> highlight icon?
<bluesabre> http://i.imgur.com/ttDrHo0.png
<bluesabre> maybe not
<ochosi> that's not my fault
<ochosi> didnt even touch that one
<knome> did you know you can buy a xubuntu disc from amazon?
<ochosi> problem is that there is no color selected
<ochosi> looks better than without
<ochosi> knome: wooot
<knome> the seller mentions the list price is $39.99, but sell it discounted at $8.99
<bluesabre> oh, I see
<knome> that's... fishy
<knome> ochosi, yeah i know, you bump to the weirdest stuff...
<ochosi> is it a private person?
<ochosi> or a business scam
<knome> "LinuxFreak"
<knome> http://www.amazon.com/Xubuntu-Linux-14-04-CD-Official/dp/B00JTNN88A
<knome> "official" my arse
<knome> "oops i said it aloud"
<bluesabre> "oooooopsies I tooted"
<knome> https://ualinux.com/en/pay/ubuntu-oem/1404-oem-pack/xubuntu-pack-1404-oem-detail
<knome> harumph
<bluesabre> ochosi: other than that, the theme looks quite polished in writer
<ochosi> bluesabre: thanks, insert-link is still missing amongst others
<ochosi> working on that as we speak
<bluesabre> nice
<ochosi> bluesabre, knome: thoughts? http://i.imgur.com/KAfssNB.png
<bluesabre> :\
<bluesabre> gotta run, bbl
<knome> ochosi, not too bad, but need to see in context
<sorinb> is it legal to sell *buntu cd's ?
<sorinb> contradicts the philosophy of Ubuntu
<knome> as long as the person selling them doesn't make any profit (or reasonable amount of profit)
<knome> reasonable being related to shipping+handling, burning
<knome> something like $5 is usually considered just fine
<knome> MSRP of $39.99 isn't (though i don't think they've ever tried to sell the CDs with that price point)
<knome> on another note, after going through several derivatives, there seems to be a few that haven't taken removing xubuntu branding seriously
<sorinb> removing ?
<knome> yes.
<knome> unofficial derivatives can't use trademarked names or logos.
<sorinb> interesting. I never heard of a xubuntu derivate
<knome> well, at least if you abide the trademark laws
<knome> pleia2, ochosi: http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-derivative-guidelines
<knome> i've added a questionnaire draft at the end of the pad - i'm thinking we could/should gather information about the derivatives that way - and possibly get communication started with it
<knome> not sure if everything there is something we want to ask, but these are all the things that came to my mind in the last few days
<knome> Unit193, you know (someone from) the security onion community?
<ochosi> knome: great idea and good questionnaire, sounds like a good way to go!
<Unit193> knome: No, just talked to a tails person before.
<knome> bluesabre, ping?
<ochosi> bluesabre: question: do you intend to take the easy road and just ship the LO icons with xubuntu-artwork or do you wanna take the more laborious (but i guess generally nicer) approach of libreoffice-style-elementary?
<Unit193> libreoffice-style-elementary, the first is Xubuntu branding and a meta.
<ochosi> well, elementary-xfce is also dubbed xubuntu-icon-theme
<Unit193> Well, except for /usr/share/gmusicbrowser/pix/elementary/gmusicbrowser.png
<knome> ochosi, also...
<knome> ochosi, @ http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-derivative-guidelines, can you check if the package list makes sense at all?
<Unit193> Nope.
<knome> Unit193, did i ask you anything? :)
<Unit193> knome: No, but you should have asked how my tea was! :P
<bluesabre> ochosi: going to package it specifically
<bluesabre> knome: hm?
<Unit193> \o/
<knome> bluesabre, what was that about the editable link?
<knome> i don't understand...
<knome> bluesabre, http://calendar.google.com/ :P
<knome> bluesabre, click on the +GoogleCalendar button at the right bottom
<bluesabre> knome: I had the public link, which for me was basically useless
<bluesabre> I got it now
<bluesabre> Unit193 added me directly
<knome> aha :)
<pleia2> I didn't know there was a private link, it just shows up in my calendar with magic
<knome> so you just weren't a member
<knome> pleia2, it's the same link, you just have to have edit rights
<pleia2> ah
<Unit193> Well, there is a private link too, that you can use in, say, thunderbird.
<knome> (and be logged in)
<knome> Unit193, i just checked what my link said, it's basically the calendar ID
<Unit193> Hmm.
<knome> i will be off from today until some time monday
<knome> not going to make the meeting
<knome> well tomorrow tbe; i might pop in early tomorrow or not
<knome> have a nice weekend everybody!
<bluesabre> seeya knome
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-19
<bluesabre> Unit193, you around?
<bluesabre> (or anybody else for that matter) :)
<Unit193> ochosi might be.
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> writing something useful at http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-reporting-bugs -- got anything you'd like to add?
<Unit193> "development releases fall between"?
<bluesabre> eh, couldn't think of a better wording at that point :D
<bluesabre> I'll clean it up a bit and it will be formatted better when I post
<bluesabre> content-wise, is there anything else we'd like people to include in their reports?
<Unit193> The upgrader calls them 'normal' releases.  You also may want to know what PPAs, if any, are enabled.
<Unit193> You'll still get a crash report in /var/crash/, don't know the best way to send it to a bug. :D
<bluesabre> noted
<bluesabre> (and noted more)
<bluesabre> Unit193, ochosi, knome: let me know if I missed anything or if anything should be yanked https://smdavis.us/2015/06/18/bug-reporting-in-xubuntu/ :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: just fyi, forwarded some screenshots and links for the LO icons upstream and the elementary folks (incl dan) really liked it. so no roadblocks from there
<bluesabre> ochosi: o/
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-20
<Unit193> bluesabre: Grey background in lightdm.
<ljfs> I'm having something like https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11107
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 11107 in Xfsettingsd "xfsettingsd resets TV mode to NULL on power cycle" [Critical,Reopened]
<ljfs> I can open a virtual terminal and kill the session, which knocks me out and everything works fine
<ljfs> I'd like to be able to tickle the session to reconnect, but I can't figure it out
<ljfs> xrandr --auto gives an error https://gist.github.com/anonymous/b9e3a7ff9d410faba7ff
<ljfs> xrandr shows DVI-I-2 connected
<ljfs> is there a guide for building the xubuntu XFCE packages from source so I can try the patch?
#xubuntu-devel 2015-06-21
<bluesabre> Unit193: https://bugs.launchpad.net/lightdm-gtk-greeter/+bug/1460303/comments/6
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1460303 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "(15.04) lightdm-gtk-greeter-settings configures a white background and ignores my image" [Undecided,New]
<ochosi_> hi everyone
<Unit193> https://packages.qa.debian.org/l/light-locker/news/20150621T094952Z.html
#xubuntu-devel 2016-06-20
<flocculant> knome: what's our next step with the council then? 
<flocculant> mail CC and start rewording strategy doc ?
<knome> flocculant, yeah, should mail the CC
<knome> flocculant, let me try to accommodate to the EU timezone first ;)
<flocculant> I was doing the second - I'd not asked again yet :D
<knome> yup
<flocculant> anyway - more about now than I have been for a while when you want to do that :)
<knome> yeah
<flocculant> and ofc - welcome back ;)
<knome> i guess since nobody commented on it, we can do it right now if we want
<knome> ta ta
<flocculant> yea guessing so 
<flocculant> though I will likely be facepalming at the tv tonight ;)
<knome> haha
#xubuntu-devel 2016-06-21
<ax562> hello
<knome> 'lo
<ax562> haha
<ax562> brb gonna login to x
<ax562> back
<pleia2> so, we have a #LoveXubuntu campaign draft up now for team members to view: https://xubuntu.org/?p=3974&preview=true
<pleia2> particularly interested in feedback from flocculant, but really everyone should chime in :)
<pleia2> also, yes, we did just have our 10th anniversary :) woooo
<ax562> cool
<knome> \o/
<ax562> page not found pleia1
<ax562> page not found pleia2
<knome> ax562, "for team members"
<pleia2> ax562: you have to be a team member to view it
<ax562> haha ooops
<ax562> sorry
<pleia2> it's a preview, not published for everyone yet
<pleia2> that's why I'm asking for feedback :)
<ax562> nm
 * knome waits the day when everybody in the internet reads things before replying ;)
<ax562> gonna be old and grey
<pleia2> haha, right
<knome> yeah, as if that ever happened...
<flocculant> pleia2: mmm
<flocculant> \o/ 
<flocculant> managed to login :p
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> haha
<knome> hah
<knome> not blocked
<knome> ...yet
<knome> :P
<flocculant> pleia2: I lost all my bookmarks ... 
<pleia2> I recall
<flocculant> reading now 
<knome> flocculant, you relocated?
<pleia2> I give them all to google to steal my privacy and autosync them between all my devices
<pleia2> because convenience++
<knome> i just remember all the URLs i need to access
<knome> (:
<Unit193> I give them all to my server and sync them too. >_>
<flocculant> knome: good for you 
<pleia2> knome: we talkad about this, you have an unusual memory
<knome> yes we did ;)
<flocculant> what's that then pasi.web./bookmarks 
<flocculant> remember one :D
<pleia2> lol
<ax562> do you guys need any help with anything?
<Unit193> They need mental help for sure.
<flocculant> they?
<knome> ax562, yes, but it would make more sense if you would tell us what kind of things you can help with
<ax562> haha
<knome> flocculant, you and your other person.
<flocculant> if anyone should have said us it would be more or Unit193 :p
<ax562> well pretty much anything I read in the team stuff
<knome> ax562, in that case fix a few thunar bugs please ;)
<flocculant> \o/
<knome> flocculant remembers the bug numbers...
 * flocculant did
<ax562> I would say start something simple first maybe test something
<flocculant> lost the bookmark with bugs 
<knome> flocculant, don't we have them in a blueprint
<ax562> you guys use github right?
<knome> ax562, nope.
<ax562> what do you guys use?
<knome> launchpad for the code that is from us
<flocculant> ax562: testing is easy - hardware or virtual - mostly documented here http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/
<knome> xfce uses git (there's a github clone though)
<pleia2> yes yes, testing, always need help there
<flocculant> http://dev.xubuntu.org/#tab-details/spec=xubuntu-y-bugs
<knome> i agree testing is a great place to start with as well
<ax562> isn't xfce = xubuntu?
<flocculant> no
<knome> you can do it when you have time, and you can finish the task on the same sitting
<ax562> well isn't it xfce = xubuntu desktop envirenoment
<knome> yes, xubuntu uses xfce, but xubuntu !== xfce
<knome> and xfce !== xubuntu
<knome> (implied..)
<ax562> now im a little confused
<ax562> i thought xfce was part of the xubuntu bundle which are part of the same team?
<flocculant> ax562: xubuntu uses xfce and some lots of xfce apps - but it's not *just* xfce
<flocculant> lots of the xubuntu team are xfce devs - but not all
<knome> ax562, xfce is indeed included in xubuntu, but the xubuntu team isn't integrated with the xfce team
<flocculant> some lots is a special testing term
<ax562> so xfce and xubuntu are not the same team per say
<flocculant> nope
<knome> as flocculant says there is some overlap
<flocculant> xfce would have no idea who I am :)
<flocculant> though I'm not sure I do either
<ax562> haha
<flocculant> seems we do a lot of testing for xfce though ;)
<ax562> so xfce > 10 years then right?
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> sure, it helps us if xfce does well
<pleia2> I started using Xfce in 2003 or so
<ax562> oh wow
<flocculant> pleia2: nice post - but question ... what is colro?
<ax562> i wasn't even on linux then
<ax562> i was an xp baby
<flocculant> I'm guessing should be  t-shirt size and color?
<pleia2> maybe it was 2004 :) http://princessleia.com/images/MyImages/screen/Desktop110604.jpg
<knome> flocculant, colro is the new black.
<flocculant> aaah
<flocculant> ok - just so long as that's plain ...
<ax562> is there like a xubuntu timeline like android?
<pleia2> I don't know what the android timeline is
<ax562> !?!
<ax562> blasphemy pleia2 :)
<knome> well, xubuntu has been doing releases for the last 10 years every 6 months...
<ax562> my bad for all the qustions, that used to be my nickname back in the day
<knome> that? qustions?
<ax562> yeah, questions, then quest, then quest quest, go figure
<ax562> im just waiting on this bleach bit
<ax562> you guys still use torrents to distribute x16.04?
<knome> what about trying to see some bits from the website?
<knome> we don't have a website lead for nothing
<knome> :)
<ax562> wait i thought you were knome
<knome> i didn't say i wasn't, please read again...
<ax562> lol
<ax562> how can i help on that end
<knome> at the moment, we have stuff well in control
<ax562> my buddys lappy is so full of junk
<ax562> gonna try to convince him to go x16.04 later this afternoon..hehehe
<flocculant> pleia2: I changed colro to color
<pleia2> flocculant: thanks :)
<flocculant> mmm ... gstreamer updates ... this is where it went wrong 6 months ago :p
<ax562> good god this is taking forever
 * genii makes more coffee and passes the mugs around
<pleia2> mmmcoffee
<knome> i only had one starbucks cappuccino in the US ;)
<genii> Starbucks actually has good coffee but such rediculous names to order something when all you want is for instance their largest mug of strong dark coffee. Also the locations seem populated with unemployed screenwriters pounding furiously on their MacBooks
<ax562> haha
<pleia2> knome: who else should we get to sign off on #lovexubuntu?
<knome> pleia2, the XPL!
<knome> genii, yeah...
<knome> genii, "i'd like a large cappuccino"
<knome> genii, "which size?"
<knome> genii, "large"
<knome> genii, "which size?"
<knome> genii, *looks at the table* "grande"
<knome> genii, "OK!"
 * knome facepalms
<knome> and unsurprisingly, they spelled my name wrong. maybe i should've kept my badge visible :)
<genii> knome: Yeah, it's annoying!
<Unit193> knome: To be fair, you *are* Finnish.
<knome> Unit193, sure.
<knome> no denying...
<Unit193> Just like nobody can get my lastname right.  I've learned to find amusment and laugh though so it all works out. :D
<knome> you can't imagine how many times i've heard "you're going to have to spell that to me" during my trips
<knome> at that point i'm usually already forking over a piece of something that has my name on it
<genii> After hearing my last name, people variously want to spell it Callback, Cullbuck, Cowlback, Kalbeck, and so on
#xubuntu-devel 2016-06-22
<oswin> hi, does someone now if is possible to access the hard drive when starting an xubuntu live cd? 
<oswin> sorry not now but how :-) 
<genii> oswin: Support in #xubuntu please
<flocculant> but yes
<flocculant> perhaps
<Unit193> knome: So basically all we have for this cycle is the XPL/council thing?
<knome> the LTS+1 cycles are always a bit boring
<knome> then we have that #lovexubuntu campaign for xubuntu's 10th birthdat
<knome> birthday too
<knome> some improvements for the website
<knome> that's what i can think of now
<Unit193> Only stuff on my 'todo' (or toreview. :P ) is the xubuntu-dev/extras stuff.
<knome> mhm
<Unit193> (And some of that is pending on XTL anyway.)
<genii> Is there some actual exact day that the tenth birthday will be held, or is this an ongoing event?
<knome> the exact birthday went, but we're doing the social media campaign "during the summer"
<genii> Ah, OK
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre, Are Xubuntu planning to participate in 16.10 alpha 1?
<Unit193> As far as I know, we are not.  flocculant could say.
<flexiondotorg> OK, I'll wait to see what flocculant says.
<Unit193> knome: Oh, what about that doku meetingology generator?
 * knome hides
<Unit193> Wiki is horribly slow, as usual..
<Unit193> flexiondotorg: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings/Archive/Minutes/2016-05-02 so yeah, we're not gonna do A1.
<flexiondotorg> Unit193, OK. Thanks.
#xubuntu-devel 2016-06-23
<bluesabre> flexiondotorg: we are not.
<bluesabre> ... as Unit193 already indicated
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> Debian #827792, Debian #827794, https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/numix-icon-theme_0~20160619.217701b-1.html
<ubottu> Debian bug 827792 in wnpp "ITP: numix-gtk-theme -- modern flat theme from the Numix project" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/827792
<ubottu> Debian bug 827794 in wnpp "ITP: numix-icon-theme: modern icon theme from the Numix project" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/827794
<Unit193> bluesabre, ochosi: https://launchpad.net/bugs/1593038
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1593038 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "Please split numix-gtk-theme into a separate source package" [Undecided,In progress]
<bluesabre> Unit193: sure would be nice if he'd go ahead and package the other
<Unit193> "Other"?
<Unit193> bluesabre: gtk-theme is in git, just not NEW yet.
<bluesabre> I meant greybird in debian
<Unit193> They're unrelated sources, and murrine-themes carries Greybird already.
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> did not know that
<Unit193> Outdated, and same package, but nevertheless.
<Unit193> !find Greybird unstable
<ubottu> Found: W:, W:, W:, W:, W:, W:, W:, W:, W:, W: (and 4 others) http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=Greybird&searchon=names&suite=unstable&section=all
<Unit193> !find Greybird unstable
<ubottu> File Greybird found in murrine-themes
<bluesabre> neat
 * bluesabre shuts up
<bluesabre> :x
<Unit193> Last updated in June, and they have GTK 3.20 already, sooo....
<Unit193> Also seems GNOME is willing to test GTK 3.20 Greybird maybe.
<Unit193> flocculant: You haven't noticed screen flickering/glitches on Yak right?
<flocculant> Unit193: nope - using nouveau 
<flocculant> well
<flocculant> I see a glitch with ff if page opening in a new tab includes a flash video - but assume that to be ff :)
<flocculant> actually - even more specifically - with bbc pages on ff that have a flash video
<knome> even more specifically bbc pages on ff that have a flash video about politics
<knome> at that point i'd assume it's your brain giving the black flicker...
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<Unit193> Not a black flicker, it'd be amusing if it didn't happen so often and be so annoying.  I'd equate it to xfwm/x having a seizure.
<flocculant> this is black - but pretty sure it's not xfanythingatall :)
<Unit193> Get adobe-flashplugin and browser-plugin-freshplayer-pepperflash. :P
<Unit193> (...Yes, I typed both out..)
<flocculant> Unit193: don't have them here - but did have them here before it all went wrong 2 weeks or so back
<Unit193> Just a recommendation or such, not entirely sure they'd help.
<flocculant> doing so let's see :)
<flocculant> upgraded at the same time
<flocculant> initscripts marked as autoremove
<pleia2> knome: did you find our distinguished PTL yet? I'm conferencing Sunday - Wednesday next week so it would be good to publish this thing soon
<knome> PTL?
<knome> pain tolerance level?
<pleia2> too much openstack, XPL
<knome> no, i didn't find him yet
<Unit193> pleia2: Yep, you!
<knome> but if he's not around... then just do it
<knome> schedule for like tomorrow?
<flocculant> knome: I'd say so 
<pleia2> Unit193: take it back
<flocculant> only xpl to have an xpl - really he's waiting for council to take over :)
<knome> who knows...
<flocculant> and expires in a week or so again
<Unit193> I'm waiting on him for theme discussions.
<flocculant> that's a bit different - he'd have a different hat on :)
<flocculant> knome: talking of which - perhaps we should actually move on a bit - I guess it'll be you and I moving that forward ... again :p
<knome> yes
<knome> schedule that for a bit later today or tomorrow
<flocculant> I could cope for a while a bit later on today, then continue if we need to
<knome> sure
<knome> during the next hour or so?
<flocculant> need to eat - and I'm behind atm - mother decided I meant 6 when I said 8 - which has put me all over the place ... 
<knome> lol
<flocculant> by need to eat - read ravenous :p
<flocculant> it is cooking though right now
<knome> but not all over the place like mr. creosote?
<flocculant> no :D
<knome> good
<knome> let's hope that doesn't happen post-dinner either
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> if it does then tomorrow :p
<knome> haha
<flocculant> knome: anyway - back now if you like
<knome> soon
<flocculant> hi wxl 
<Unit193> (That was a netsplit.)
<flocculant> didn't seem like much of one here :p
<Unit193> Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: floc culant, sak recoer, dav mor2_HOLS, w x l
<flocculant> no difference to the odd bbc black box glitch btw
<Unit193> Meh, worth a shot I guess.
<flocculant> yup
<ax562> so how would I go about helping with testing again?
 * knome points ax562 to flocculant 
<knome> flocculant, i'm good to go in 15ish once wife is in bed and me on the desktop
<flocculant> okey doke - probably best to pm and pad like last time
<ax562> I'm about to do a fresh install of xubuntu 16.06 and running 14.04lts with the xfce-environement
<ax562> flocculant should I pm you?
<flocculant> Unit193: definitely a ff thing - no such thing in chromium
<Unit193> ax562: We'd be testing 16.10, .04 is already released.
<flocculant> ax562: #xubuntu 
<flocculant> I've been running 16.10 since the day after we released 16.04
<Unit193> I've been running it ever since I upgraded.
<flocculant> later I'll do some 14.04.x to 16.04.1 upgrade testing - and will ask others 
<flocculant> Unit193: :)
<ax562> cool so right now 16.10 needs testing?  how would one get 16.10
<Unit193> ISO, upgrade, or minimal+task.
<flocculant> ax562: pretty sure I pointed you at the dev docs the other day
<ax562> yeah, i missed one of the links
<ax562> hold on let me check
<Unit193> flocculant: Point at the most up to date ones! :--D
<flocculant> chapters 4-7 are all qa/testing ones
<flocculant> http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/
<flocculant> also http://wiki.xubuntu.org/qa/isotesting
<flocculant> Unit193: not changed anything
<flocculant> yet ... 
<ax562> http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/
<ax562> this is what I should be looking at rigt?
<flocculant> read up :)
<ax562> ok cool. so 4-7
<flocculant> and below that ;)
<ax562> is there a video :p
<flocculant> nope
<flocculant> ax562: but guess what ...
<ax562> what?
<flocculant> http://dev.xubuntu.org/#tab-details/spec=xubuntu-y-qa
<flocculant> see the item David has at the top 
<flocculant> nothing to stop you doing that given you want to help :)
<ax562> haha ok
<ax562> one step at a time though :p
<flocculant> well the best people to do something like that - are people who don't do things on autopilot :)
<ax562> i don't have a plane so I think i'm good ;)
<flocculant> I'm definitely on autopilot - a command grabs the iso's then boots them sequentially with kvm
<flocculant> well - updates the iso's
<Unit193> Hrm, I should update the ISOs then.
<ax562> ah your talking about scripts
<Unit193> flocculant: I tried not using the ubiquity hack recently, did not work. :/
<flocculant> Unit193: :)
<flocculant> ax562: nope http://paste.ubuntu.com/17767276/
<flocculant> yes probably krytarik - but it works so *shrug*
<ax562> that's pretty cool
<flocculant> :)
<knome> let's do two things at once
<knome> flocculant, the mail to CC (probably doesn't need much work)
<knome> pleia2, the #lovexubuntu announcement
<pleia2> eh?
<knome> pleia2, let's do it now?
<knome> i know i said tomorrow... (and it's technically "tomorrow" here now)
<pleia2> but we don't have our leader dude
<knome> but we haven't seen him in a while and we're moving towards a council anyway
<flocculant> pleia2: yep - but ^^
<pleia2> ok wfm
<flocculant> and 3 or 4 of team have said go for it :)
<knome> i don't think it's a biggie for him
<knome> he isn't even in the marketing team...
<pleia2> indeed :)
<flocculant> pseudo-council :)
<knome> meh, i need to figure out my ubuntu one password
<knome> sec
<Unit193> Still, just XPL pleia2, everyone's happy.
<flocculant> knome: the CC is easy - send them our plan with a cover note
<pleia2> Unit193: I don't even have time to do my marketing duties as well as I'd like
<Unit193> pleia2: FWIW, you're just the fun one this week, last time it was slickymaster. :)
<pleia2> next time, Unit193 
<knome> next time should last for like, 2 years
<pleia2> yeah, voluntelling is an important skill in XPL
<Unit193> Rules me out.
<knome> pleia2, so was there anything we wanted changed in the article, or should i go push it out, then social media?
<pleia2> knome: it lgtm
<knome> pleia2, ok, publishing when i'm in..
<pleia2> I'll do G+ and FB once it's out, then I will take a nap
<knome> flocculant, http://pad.ubuntu.com/x-council-cc-mail
<knome> flocculant, that's the proposal part (plus some) from the mail to the devel list
<knome> needs some tweaks and an introduction
<knome> pleia2, https://xubuntu.org/news/looking-memorable-fun-xubuntu-stories/ is out
<pleia2> ty sir
<knome> and making it an article too so it shows up on the front page
<knome> and done
<knome> tweeting next...
<knome> --> https://twitter.com/Xubuntu/status/746089144535875585
<pleia2> G+ and fb done
<knome> flocculant, i'm pretty much fine with it; we could probably tweak it for another hour, but ultimately, it's "just" the CC and we want this to progress ASAP
<flocculant> knome: did you say ^^ while I was facepalming at stylish? 
<knome> flocculant, ok, sent
<knome> flocculant, did i say what? :)
<knome> i said ^ ^ to make sure you saw the whole link :D
<flocculant>  we could probably tweak it for another hour, but ultimately
<knome> right
<knome> probably earlier
<knome> or later
<flocculant> cool - got the cc 
<knome> i don't remember
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<knome> ...
<flocculant> right - dreamtime :)
<knome> nighty flocculant!
<flocculant> knome: all I'd say is I'd like if we can just get as much done as possible, and start moving on - otherwise it'll be 17.04 dev cycle :)
<knome> yep
<knome> maybe
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> anyway - not tonight :)
<flocculant> night peeps
<ax562> so I would have to dl the 16.10.iso to test correct?
<knome> yes
<Unit193> I'd of course be interested in responses too.
<knome> ax562, note that for the testing to be useful, you will have to follow the steps mentioned in the contributor docs, which will ultimately lead you to reporting a test (or several ones) to the testing trackers
<ax562> yeah I created a launchpad, joined the xubuntu group, and was at the iso stage but didn't know which to download
<ax562> or do I have to download
<knome> ok
<ax562> downloading 116.10 :)
<Unit193> All of GNOME 3.20 is held up right
<Unit193> ?
<Unit193> (https://packages.qa.debian.org/e/evince/news/20160623T232718Z.html)
#xubuntu-devel 2016-06-24
<ax562> anyone recommend a good virtual machine tutorial for xubuntu?
<ax562> damn it.  cpu doesn't support vt-x :(
<ali1234> check bios it might be turned off
<ax562> nah I checked intel specs
<ax562> not supported
<ax562> do you guys usually install xubuntu on vm or just try it from iso?
<pleia2> ax562: for testing?
<ax562> yes
<pleia2> I'll get a link to our QA documentation
<ax562> i think that's chapter 5
<pleia2> ax562: http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/qa-testing.html
<ax562> i'm actually on it atm
<pleia2> oh ok :)
<pleia2> "usually" isn't really a thing, some people do it right on bare metal (I do), others do most of their testing in virtualization
<pleia2> and there are tests for both Live and installation
<pleia2> if you follow the links to the ISO tracker you'll see different scenarios
<pleia2> so for today on the yakkety daily build, you have these options: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/360/builds/123628/testcases
<pleia2> 3 of them are install tests, one live session, and some post install tasks
<pleia2> the live ones are obviously the easiest since they should leave your installed system intact (I've never had a problem, but this is pre-alpha software, disclaimer here)) but we need all of them done, so the install tests are very valuable
<ax562> ah ok pleia2
<ax562> well right now im running a vm install of 16.10 on my vm dynamic hdd
<ax562> and it's going sloooow
<pleia2> yeah, it'll be slow on a vm on a system old enough not to have hardware virt :(
<pleia2> you may find bugs that others with faster systems don't encounter though, which is worthwhile
<ax562> cool well still trucking ;p
<ax562> yakkety is 16.10 right?
<Unit193> Aup.
<ax562> my vm iso says loading 16.04?
<Unit193> That's just plymouth, ignore 'er.
<ax562> actually "xubuntu 16.04..."
<ax562> ok thanks
<ax562> finally finished installing
<ax562> ;)
<ax562> so far so good :)
<ax562> terminal is working great so is firefox
<ax562> do I have to add theses ppas
<ax562>     Shimmer Themes for daily builds of the Shimmer Projectâs projects
<ax562>     Xubuntu Staging for packages and package versions that are being prepared for inclusion in Xubuntu
<ax562>     Xubuntu daily builds for daily Git and Bzr builds for packages related to Xubuntu and/or Xfce4
<flocculant> ax562: no you don't 'have' to add ppa's
<ax562> is deb = xdeb in xubuntu universe?
<flocculant> not if you're talking about .deb's 
<ax562> deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/shimmerproject/daily/ubuntu yakkety main 
<ax562> the tutorial linked me to add the ppa like this
<ax562> but terminal through back error did you mean xdeb
<flocculant> did it? got a link to that?
<ax562> https://launchpad.net/~shimmerproject/+archive/ubuntu/daily
<ax562> http://docs.xubuntu.org/contributors/qa-testing.html
<ax562> ^that is what i'm following
<ax562> it didn't actually say to add it but it says you will need it
<flocculant> ax562: you don't have to use those
<ax562> then it linked me to the shimmerproject link
<ax562> ok cool
<ax562> moving on lol
<ax562> i need a cig
<flocculant> using ppa's is more for people who run the dev version as a prod setup
<ax562> still learning
<ax562> what's a prod setup
<flocculant> I use yakkety as my normal setup
<ax562> kind of like yo0ur daily driver?
<flocculant> kind of
<ax562> hmmm
<ax562> I did so much today lmao
<flocculant> :)
<ax562> i've literally ran through 3 os's
<ax562> partitions left and right
<Unit193> Pretty sure he tried that as a commandline...
<flocculant> :)
<tracker2> hello
<flocculant> knome: on reflecting while depressed today ;) I still think we should move on and call for nominations 
<flocculant> one way or the other we'll be wanting to do so regardless
<knome> probably, but the candidates do not know what exactly is waiting for them, so i would wait for at least the first ack from CC
<knome> again, i can ping the CC to try to speed it up
<knome> i mean this shouldn't really take long at all..
<knome> anyway
<knome> off to sauna
<knome> bbl
<Unit193> At least there shouldn't be too many things that need team leads this cycle
<knome> no, and what's the problem with needing team leads? the team leads still continue their work as usual
<Unit193> Hiding. >_>
<Unit193> :D
<knome> the only thing that is in flux is the XPL spot/structure, and we haven't fortunately needed the XPL to resolve many disagreements lately...
<Unit193> knome: I disagree!
<knome> but of course you do
<knome> but we know how to handle that already
 * knome gets the whip
<Unit193> :3
<Unit193> That deluge issue is fixed, ax562.
<ax562> oh cool thanks
<ax562> do you know how I can update my iso without downloading a whole new iso?
<Unit193> !zsync
<ubottu> Use zsync to update your Ubuntu CD image without needing to download the parts that didn't change. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ZsyncCdImage
<ax562> hell yeah
<knome> ax562, please remember this is a family-friendly channel...
<ax562> that's a beautiful option
<ax562> heck yeah :)
<knome> meh
<knome> if you need to think how else you can say something, then you shouldn't say it at all :P
<ax562> i guess
<ax562> i was excited 
<knome> that's not an excuse though...
<ax562> lol
<Unit193> You can also rsync.
<ax562> Unit193 have you tried rsync?
<Unit193> I've used both.
<ax562> do you prefer 1 over the other?
<Unit193> If you're limited on bw, use zsync.
<knome> rsync for backups, zsync for ISOs
<ax562> I was reading it was less efficient
<ax562> rsync
<knome> a friendly tip: don't read everything on everything, you'll end up spending more/all time in reading and trying to optimize rather than get things done (tm)
<Unit193> ax562: Try one, try the other, pick which works better for you.  Keep in mind of course that some days more changes on the ISO than other days.
<ax562> if there is change I should have fetched correct?
<knome> pick the one of which first letter you want to press more often on the keyboard
<Unit193> knome: I like the letter 'x'
<knome> you can alias either one to xsynz
<knome> err
<knome> xsync too
<pleia2> woo, we got our first story submission :)
<knome> indeed
<ax562> what\s the best way to check if bug has been reported?
<knome> ax562, search launchpad.
<knome> ax562, or with common bugs, you can likely find them in the qa trackers' report pages
<ax562> thanks
#xubuntu-devel 2016-06-25
<ax562> knome would this be all the reported bugs for xubuntu 16.10? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-y-bugs
<knome> nope.
<knome> that's just the bugs we are committing to fix
<knome> or at least committed to try to fix
<ax562> haha
<ax562> what if someone doesn't get the error reported on a bug?
<knome> then we don't know about their bug?
<Unit193> Hah, Debian #828175.
<ubottu> Debian bug 828175 in xfce4-power-manager "XFCE4 Losing Mouse Cursor (+ Desktop?) after suspend or screen blank" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/828175
<flocculant> is that a dupe ...
#xubuntu-devel 2016-06-26
<bluesabre> flocculant: pretty sure
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-19
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-settings 4.13.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-settings-4-13-1-released-tp49431.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Not that we do many packages not merged from Debian, but https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/upgrading-checklist.html#s-4.0.0 hit unstable.
<bluesabre> Unit193: thanks
<akxwi-dave> Unit193: cheers  can start to check that in the iso now then...
<bluesabre> Unit193: with exo and xfce4-settings releases behind me, I can finally start to follow up on https://sigma.unit193.net/~unit193/xfce4-gtk3.html :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: I should likely mention both uploaded to ppa, though exo might be able to go to repo.  Is that really useful?  What's the idea there?
<bluesabre> Unit193: there's a thunar fix in that release... but we are also considering other gtk3 components we might include in artful
<Unit193> Right, saw that bit..
<bluesabre> if we push xfce4-settings or thunar-gtk3, we'll want it :)
<Unit193> Ehh, would seriously not be shipping experimental thunar.
<bluesabre> I'm optimistic that it might be a stable thing one day
<bluesabre> maybe before october :D
<Unit193> Could still push it to a PPA to get testing, so it's not like we can't get users testing it..
<Unit193> xfce4-settings, it's got the usual GTK3 quirks, but works well enough I don't really care too much. :P
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> any quirks in particular?
<Unit193> I've been pushing some things to Debian as of recent.
 * bluesabre claps
<Unit193> Well, just now opened 'appearance' and the plug was black for a good 3 seconds.  Usual stuff.
<bluesabre> gotcha
<bluesabre> think it might do that (in grey) with the gtk2 version
<bluesabre> planning to fix that soon
<Unit193> Never seen it with that one.
<Unit193> But as I said, nothing I've noticed that'd make me object.
<bluesabre> cool
<Unit193> I mean, byond being a litt apprehensive that it'd require the new xfconf..
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> Just have to remember all the development releases we grab will also be in an LTS.
<bluesabre> Yup
<bluesabre> So being very careful :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Know about: usr/share/man/man1/exo-csource.1.gz 10: warning: macro `Aq' not defined  ?
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-20
<bluesabre> Unit193: nope :D
<Unit193> \o/
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-21
<Unit193> https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/garcon_0.6.1-1.html
<Unit193> bluesabre: Did you see https://launchpad.net/~canonical-foundations/+archive/ubuntu/python3.6-as-default/+build/12743063 ? (Relating to https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2017-June/039826.html)
<Unit193> ochosi: Oh, was the python script for panel config switching going upstream?  I thought that was the goal at one point.
<ochosi> yeah, at one point. not sure, it's a little hacky and we would have preferred to redo it in c
<ochosi> but so far nobody had the time/energy
<ochosi> and there were more important things to take care of
<Unit193> Sure, just wondered.  And ah, so it'll still be on hold for a while then.  I only ask due to the question from Corsac in #xfce-dev a couple days ago.
<ochosi> mhm
<bluesabre> Unit193: ooooh python 3.6
<Unit193> Yeeep.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-23
<flocculant> bluesabre: thunar sru ? 2 weeks now almost :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfconf 4.13.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfconf-4-13-2-released-tp49461.html (by Ali Abdallah-4)
<bluesabre> flocculant: not a lot of people giving it a look, no reports for yakkety or zesty
<bluesabre> It also appears that we need a yakkety verification here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-weather-plugin/+bug/1688056
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1688056 in xfce4-weather-plugin (Ubuntu Yakkety) "Package outdated" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - didn't think about checking what had been done there - sorry :(
<Unit193> https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/xfconf_4.13.2-1.html
<bluesabre> Unit193: ooh, that opens up some options
<Unit193> bluesabre: To experimental, and I still wouldn't sync it yet.
<Unit193> util was uploaded too, and while it's not much risk, I don't think it's really much gain yet either.  Once garcon makes it past NEW, might as well go for that one though.
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-24
<Unit193> ochosi: Did libxfce4ui-glade actually end up being useful?
<Unit193> -screenshooter pushed, it's a slightly different build but fun to play with.
<ochosi> Unit193: yes, the glade part is useful for devs at least
<Unit193> Hmm.
<bluesabre> Unit193: I use it, fwiw :)
#xubuntu-devel 2017-06-25
<flocculant> ochosi: don't know if you're interested/worried, ubiquity with resizing for dual boot has odd thick bar to one side, not sure it it's supposed to be a shadow? in which case it's missing from the other block. http://i.imgur.com/fIHOnVK.png
<ochosi> flocculant: hmm, that is some custom widgetry, not sure what it's supposed to look like. you could try with ambiance / ubuntu's installer
<flocculant> ochosi: ok - I'll try and remember to do that - wasn't actually too bothered, mostly wanted to know if you were :)
<flocculant> found something else a bit more eww now - just checking an old iso - though it's not a 'xubuntu' issue :D
<bluesabre> eww
<flocculant> yea - wondering if the removal of guest has caused it, looking at an old iso now
<flocculant> morning bluesabre :)
<bluesabre> morning flocculant, ochosi 
<flocculant> bluesabre: why do we have option to login as Other? 
<bluesabre> flocculant: to allow for root login (if enabled) or UIDs less than 1000
<bluesabre> or if using a active directory domain, etc
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - wonder why Ubuntu doesn't then :p
<flocculant> anyway - never really noticed that option - until Guest was missing :p
<bluesabre> more features, more problems ;)
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<bluesabre> haven't tested it in ages, but I'm sure it still works
<flocculant> Other?
<bluesabre> yeah
<flocculant> k - not something I've ever looked at - not intending to start now either :p
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: are we caring about making sure lock/login to other user is working? cos currently we can't use Guest ... if we are I'll need to rejig our testcase to add a user
<flocculant> I know it actually works ok in artful currently btw
<bluesabre> hmm
<flocculant> easy enough to reword a testcase :)
<bluesabre> that functionality should be the same regardless of user, but yeah, would be good to catch early should it ever break
<bluesabre> But with lightdm effectively heading into maintenance mode, maybe it will never break again
<flocculant> ok - I'll reword it and assign you to approve 
<flocculant> true :D
<bluesabre> Works for me
<flocculant> k - I'll do it shortly then
<flocculant> bluesabre: it's there now - you'll get mail - I'll follow up when I see merge mail - tia
<flocculant> wandering off into Sunday now :)
<flocculant> after I fixed what I did :D
<flocculant> oh nvm - it's fine lol 
<flocculant> bluesabre: ta - all done and live on tracker now :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-screenshooter 1.9.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-screenshooter-1-9-0-released-tp49474.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda-3)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-18
<Unit193> bluesabre:
<Unit193> xfce4-settings-editor/Makefile.am:78: warning: DISTCLEANFILES was already defined in condition MAINTAINER_MODE, which is included in condition TRUE ...
<Unit193> xfce4-settings-editor/Makefile.am:66: ... 'DISTCLEANFILES' previously defined here
<Unit193> Also, -AC_CONFIG_MACRO_DIR([m4])
<Unit193> +AC_CONFIG_MACRO_DIRS([m4])
<Unit193> bluesabre: I have no idea why or what else that might affect, but that's the problem that we're working around with `mkdir -p m4`, so if you can just commit that change everywhere that'd be lovely. :P
<Unit193> I: xfce4-settings: spelling-error-in-binary usr/bin/xfce4-display-settings PRECISON PRECISION
<Unit193> I: xfce4-settings: spelling-error-in-binary usr/bin/xfce4-display-settings Synopsys Synopsis
<bluesabre> Unit193: feel free to lintian override 
<bluesabre> dialogs/display-settings/display-name.c:2105:    { "SPS", "Synopsys Inc" },
<bluesabre> the other one is a typo :)
<Unit193> Ooooh.
<Unit193> bluesabre: And do you understand the autotools stuff well enough to review what I said and commit, or commit everywhere? :P
<bluesabre> Unit193: last 3 commits look good? https://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfce4-settings/
<Unit193> https://github.com/search?q=org%3Axfce-mirror+AC_CONFIG_MACRO_DIR%28&type=Code
<Unit193> bluesabre: And, uh..  I guess?  Thanks very much!
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> Seriously, I'd love this bug to be gone. :D
<bluesabre> ochosi: can you make those commits or grant me access to the various repos? I promise I won't break things :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfconf 4.13.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfconf-4-13-5-released-tp51238.html (by Ali Abdallah-4)
<ochosi> bluesabre: oh wow, that sounds like "fun"
<ochosi> i'll see which repos i can push this to
<ochosi> Unit193: what would be an appropriate commit msg for s/MACRO_DIR/MACRO_DIRS/ ?
<ochosi> is it simply that the macro name has changed?
<ochosi> or is there an explanation behind this change?
<Unit193> ochosi: I don't know about appropriate, but bluesabre already committed a change in -settings.  The macro name hasn't changed, this just allows one to specify multiple dirs, or that's what it should do.  In theory both should work fine, but looking at the two releases this was the only thing different, so I tried it and it "solved" the problem.
<Unit193> I'm sorry I can't explain it, but I don't even remotely know autotools or why it doesn't work as it should.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-19
<Unit193> bluesabre: Do you want me to add the platform feed to SwissBot?
<bluesabre> Unit193: yeah, could be handy
<Unit193> Done.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-20
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-taskmanager/1.2.1-0ubuntu1
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: exo 0.12.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-exo-0-12-2-released-tp51301.html (by Sean Davis-6)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-settings 4.12.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-settings-4-12-4-released-tp51304.html (by Sean Davis-6)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-settings 4.13.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-settings-4-13-4-released-tp51305.html (by Sean Davis-6)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-21
<pleia2> dev server is inaccessible due to datacenter problems, should return on its own
<Unit193> Not Atlanta for once! \o/
<pleia2> it's better now :)
<pleia2> hm, at least it's getting there
<pleia2> anyway, I need sleep
<Unit193> G'night.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-06-22
<Unit193> bluesabre: What's the status of things?  How is experimental?  xfconf/-panel/-settings/thunar*?
<bluesabre> Unit193: only really know the state of -settings, where 4.13.4 can go to experimental and 4.12.4 can go to bionic (and not experimental)
<bluesabre> exo 0.12.2 is also ready for upload/use
<bluesabre> going to be working on SRUs this weekend
<bluesabre> thunar also seems safe from my testing at home, going to install at work today and give it a run
<bluesabre> off to work now, bbl
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-17
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Drop initramfs-tools from minimal @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=14358a966e1f7512355992e4fe24c679b78a1346 (by Balint Reczey)
<pleia2> I made a very scientific and totally unbias poll on twitter about color emojis https://twitter.com/pleia2/status/1139688880905453568
<pleia2> (ok, I'm being sarcastic, but there is a poll!)
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-18
<bluesabre> pleia2: :)
<TJ-> I've made 2 interesting discoveries regarding this LCD-DPMS-off-after-resume issue; 1) I can cause sddm sessions to be affected too, which rather rules out lightdm as well 2) monitoring the sysfs DPMS node shows it is being set to off when switching to the GUI tty, and on when switching away. Now trying to discover 3) which process does the actual off and 4) which process triggers it in the user
<TJ-> session
<Thr0r> Hello! Are you the ones responsible for keeping the Ubuntu SW shop updated? Or should I ask somewhere else?
<brainwash> SW?
<brainwash> also, is this a xubuntu related question?
<Thr0r> brainwash: Yes - Like in SoftWare - The software you can install on Ubuntu...
<Thr0r> brainwash: Any Ubuntu
<brainwash> then you should ask in #ubuntu-desktop
<Thr0r> ok
<Thr0r> ..more channels...
<brainwash> you were told to ask in here?
<Thr0r> Not really - someone suggested it. I was just wondering why the latest version of DigiKam - ver.6,0 is not in the SW shop. I resently installed and I got ver. 5,6,0
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-19
<brainwash> Unit193: https://sources.debian.org/patches/thunar/1.8.4-1/01_support-non-multiarch-modules.patch/
<brainwash> thunarx-2 -> thunarx-3
<brainwash> https://git.xfce.org/xfce/thunar/commit/?id=f0188281c263f03a43362e94f9666a03c62ba359
<Unit193> Urgh, that was missed...
<Unit193> brainwash: Thanks, btw.
<Unit193> I doubt it's important nowdays, buuut.
<albinard> Just did an install of the 0619 ISO, now running perfectly after one small glitch.
<Unit193> What glitch?
<Unit193> Ah, whisker crash or something along those lines.
<albinard> Whisper menu vanished at first boot, error flag appeared, I let apport report it.
<albinard> I should add that I always replace Whisker with the classis menu, so I don't know whether anything further occurred on Whisper.
<Unit193> The version in eoan is newer than disco (new upstream release), wonder if there's a nice regression. :D
<albinard> A question: I put in a "Successful" report on the QA page, but couldn't add a comment.  Did I miss something on the page to let me do that?
<Unit193> albinard: There should be a textarea I believe for that sort of thing, nothing special in order to enable it.
<albinard> On my screen, at the bottom the only choices are Passed with no bugs, Subscribe, and Unsubscribe - clicking Passed just submitted directly.  I remember a place to comment, which I no longer see.
<Unit193> Yeah you have to click the testcase first, eg http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/404/builds/194922/testcases/1303/results
<albinard> Argh, I guess I missed that this time!  Sorry to be a klutz - maybe I'm losing more brain cells than I thought.
<albinard> I'm putting in a comment now.
<Unit193> I'm pretty sure I've wondered about that in the past as well at some point. >_>
<Unit193> Missed the whole clicking thing when there's a quick report option at the end, that is.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 19.10 - amd64 - amd64 built.
<Unit193> Say, http://paste.openstack.org/show/oYG53bcogDzZFuHfbfPB/ isn't so bad!
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-20
<flocculant> Unit193: on the whisker menu subject - updates yesterday and it threw itself off the panel half a dozen times cos I kept telling it to get back there
<Unit193> flocculant: Anything cool in .xsession-errors?
<flocculant> 17:45:57.080: garcon_menu_item_action_get_name: assertion 'GARCON_IS_MENU_ITEM_ACTION (action)' failed xfce4-panel-Message: 17:45:57.096: Plugin whiskermenu-1 has been automatically restarted after crash.
<flocculant> was just looking
<flocculant> Negative content width -3 (allocation 1, extents 2x2) while allocating gadget (node button, owner GtkToggleButton)
<flocculant> 17:45:57.371: invalid uninstantiatable type '(null)' in cast to 'GarconMenuItemAction'
<flocculant> that all repeats each time I forced it back
<flocculant> till updates were done
<Unit193> https://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?320702-F29-xfce4-panel-crashed welp...And I didn't push anything that would have changed/fixed that..
<flocculant> Unit193: what was updating at the time - https://pasteboard.co/Ikf9JSC.png
<Unit193> So, krb and LO is all.
<flocculant> yup
<flocculant> and just did this mornings updates - and no reoccurence of it
<flocculant> *shrug*
<flocculant> back to being a sleeping giant :D
<mozmck> Are the instructions here still valid for creating a custom live cd?  https://askubuntu.com/questions/48535/how-to-customize-the-ubuntu-live-cd
<mozmck> I'm looking at the section "Creating your own Custom Live CD - the manual way." in particular.
<mozmck> Or is there a better/easier method now?  How is it done for the official ISOs?
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-21
<albinard> Tested the 06/21 ISO, Whisker menu works, slight flicker at first appearance of desktop.
<albinard> Upon reboot, installation of ISO 06/21 opens Xorg with no flicker.
<Unit193> floc had also noticed the whiskermenu troubles, but his seemed to be solved upon system updates.
<albinard> Whiskermenu was fine on this install, it was just the initial Xorg flicker I noted.
<albinard> Noted in the QA report, I mean.
<albinard> Wrote 06/19 Xubuntu Core ISO to USB, booted, chose Try, panel showed /casper/vmlinuz file not found.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-22
<bluesabre> Freshly installed eoan on my laptop
<bluesabre> Noticed the flicker in the whiskmenu folks have mentioned
<bluesabre> Also noticed we're not currently building xfce4-settings with the colord support... I'm thinking we probably want that
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfmpc 0.3.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfmpc-0-3-0-released-tp54268.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
<knome> yes please :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: what packages are required for colord to find my monitors? In eoan, I'm just getting "No devices found."
<bluesabre> It detected my scanner, briefly, earlier
<bluesabre> Or is this possibly some nvidia-linked issue?
<bluesabre> https://imgur.com/NBNJfcS.png is what I'm seeing
<ochosi> bluesabre: you need xiccd for that, it's an additional daemon
<ochosi> yuck, the no devices found is misplaced, i thought that one expands
<ochosi> i mean it could be worse, but it should be centered
<ochosi> (vertically)
<ochosi> actually it's all summed up and explained here: https://simon.shimmerproject.org/2019/02/19/color-profile-support-for-xfce/
<ochosi> (also the xiccd dependency)
<TJ-> bluesabre: when you have time, could you give an opinion on the findings in comments #16 onwards in Bug #1759950  - the Lid-Close-Suspend-Resume-DPM-off issue - I've traced it down through to libxrandr but not being familiar with this area of functionality not sure what to make of it
<ubottu> bug 1759950 in Xfce4 Power Manager "Lid-close suspend: blank screen when switching to user session" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1759950
<brainwash> TJ-: I have no input, but did you test with 19.10 dev yet?
<TJ-> brainwash: no, not so far
<brainwash> or 19.04 + xubuntu experimental PPA
<TJ-> I'll fetch the 19.10 daily and try that
<TJ-> really annoys me that all the -dev images have the same name no matter which flavour; almost overwrote the Lubuntu image!
<bluesabre> ochosi: thanks, that does the trick
<bluesabre> TJ-: that's interesting, but I really don't know where to go from there since I'm not particularly well versed in randr either :(
<TJ-> bluesabre: 3 issues are strange; 1) first close-suspend-open-resume is fine, but subsequent cycles fail, 2) the fact I added a delay and it still doesn't recover suggests it isn't a race condition 3) as this doesn't affect other flavours my suspicion is its something xfsettingsd is {not,} doing  
<bluesabre> !team | uploaded colord-enabled xfce4-settings to eoan. Should build and be available a bit later.
<ubottu> uploaded colord-enabled xfce4-settings to eoan. Should build and be available a bit later.: team is akxwi-dave, bluesabre, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-settings/4.13.6-0ubuntu2
<bluesabre> Eickmeyer: FYI ^
<bluesabre> TJ-: is there any other non-Xfce desktop that we could test by dropping light-locker/xfce4-settings into?
<TJ-> bluesabre: not sure to be honest! I have a tentative theory... you know that both the first and second cycles both report "xfsettingsd-CRITICAL **: <timestamp>: Failed to apply display settings" ... what if thatfailure after the 1st resume is the cause of the 2nd cycle then failing (not updating some internal state possibly ?)
<bluesabre> TJ-: that sounds like as good a theory as any :)
<TJ-> hehehe grasping at straws :)
<TJ-> I've not focusing on that aspect as yet, but I guess I ought to since we'd rather not have any failures
<TJ-> It's sure easier than trying to figure out libx11 and libxrandr
<TJ-> seems to come from  if (gdk_x11_display_error_trap_pop (gdk_display_get_default ()) != 0)
<TJ-> so I presume gdk_display_get_default() is where to focus
<TJ-> ahhh, and that looks to be one of yours :)  c6c7ca212
<TJ-> hmmm, so, if I understand correctly, one of the function calls between the push and the pop is failing
<ochosi> maybe x11/gdk isnt ready when xfsettingsd is asking for the display
#xubuntu-devel 2019-06-23
<ochosi> i sometimes see this issue as well, or something similar, and i wonder if it's x11 because if i do a manual VT switch the session wakes up again (that's without light-locker or any other screensaver apart from the x11 mit screensaver extension)
<TJ-> I've never been able to get the DPMS to be enabled in that way, once its off its off
<TJ-> ochosi: I added a delay loop and it didn't help
<TJ-> I've added a report of what the X error is from gdk_x11_display_error_trap_pop
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Disable xfce4-screensaver lock screen in the live session @ http://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/?id=650fd90df8d1e3e7b15fd789907fa47e9e2f68e5 (by Sean Davis)
<TJ-> Well, the error is 8 but cannot figure out where to decode that; can't see an obvious error.h 
<TJ-> hmmm, seems to be "#define BadMatch           8    /* parameter mismatch */ "
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: Add Super+L shortcut to lock the screen. Replace Ctrl+Alt+D with Super+D to show the desktop @ http://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/commit/?id=4f8124a0669462a5ff86017043ab4cc068ae4b1e (by Sean Davis)
<bluesabre> Unfortunate that xfwm4 doesn't support multiple keybindings and doesn't have an interface for it's commands (I think)
<bluesabre> TJ-: yeah, I've definitely seen instances where DPMS gets turned on, and not back off without swapping VTs and killing it (more than just with light-locker)
<bluesabre> ochosi: do you have a strong opinion on: [TEAM VOTE] The GIMP: Shipping with GTK theme by default ?
<Eickmeyer> bluesabre: ack
<bluesabre> Finally got the emoji email out. Hopefully we get some +1s :)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-cpugraph-plugin 1.0.91 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-cpugraph-plugin-1-0-91-released-tp54273.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
<ochosi> bluesabre: maybe we can simulate the problem by enabling dpms on a secondary monitor and then trying to configure it with xrandr. if thats the problem we may just havr to add a dpms call to xfsettingsd (if it doesnt do that already)
<ochosi> regarding gimp, i'd go for non-dark theme. the dark theme of gimp osnt really that nice (its more dark greyish) and the monochrome icons dont help a11y imo
<knome> hmm, should update the team factoid
<bluesabre> ochosi: I think dpms is all monitors or none
<bluesabre> ochosi: thanks for the vote :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: now vote on emoji ;)
<ochosi> bluesabre: ah right, possible that affects all displays because its a single x call
<ochosi> but with a timeout one could still easily simulate this
<ochosi> dpms on -> sleep 3000 -> xrandr --auto
<ochosi> or something along those lines
<TJ-> bluesabre: I did a test with the daily 19.10 amd64; the live env suffers the same on the 2nd cycle of lid-close suspend>resume too. Updated bug report to reflect that. As before, monitoring the output's dpms node in sysfs shows it being turned off when the GUI TTY is active
<bluesabre> TJ-: some possibly good news for 19.10... will be swapping out light-locker for xfce4-screensaver today or tomorrow. Major difference between the 2 is that the latter doesn't use vt-switch for user locking. At least for me, this means I am able to suspend/resume my laptop normally and it always comes back
<bluesabre> (ofc, we still need to get the LTS into a reasonable state)
<TJ-> but neither of those are used in the Live environ are they?
<jphilipz> hi all, i want to do QA testing primarily on the upcoming xfce 4.14 components and wondered if i should get the daily iso or the 19.04 iso and add the qa staging ppa on top of it
<guiverc2> jphilipz, I'm no expert, but I'd suggest eoan daily from http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/ as it allows you to record your QA-tests, have have a place for comments and to report bugs (if found) in a manner that's more easily tracked  (they go on launchpad anyway; but it has test/bug tracking)  my 2c
<jphilipz> guiverc2: thanks. when you say 'record your QA-tests', can you elaborate on that
<guiverc2> if you open the provided link, it'll take you to http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/404/builds/195174/testcases/1303/results  (for live qa-tests); where you can currently see some recent logs  (i forgot were there)
<guiverc2> jphilipz, i would have pushed that less if I'd realize my logs were there, but take note of button "Add a test result"  it has places for critical bugs, bugs & comments, you can amend your reports ...  from launchpad you can view all qa-tests (from iso.qa.ubuntu.com) that involve a specific bug etc
<jphilipz> guiverc2: thanks
<jphilipz> i see here there are various test cases, but what about reporting bugs not related to these - http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/404/builds/195174/testcases
<guiverc2> report those normally thru launchpad.   the iso.qa site is specific to those tests, and should NOT limit your testing :)
<guiverc2> record comments as you see appropriate (or useful to you) 
<guiverc2> useful to you & others
<jphilipz> i've reported a few bugs on launchpad before for ubuntu mate, so lets see how this goes
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-15
<jphilips> anyone experienced with gnome software can explain the updates tab, as there is an update for firefox in software updater but nothing shows up on the updates tab
<jphilips> the usability and bugs in gnome center keep me away from using it
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ATTN: Xubuntu Core 20.10 - amd64 - amd64 built.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is knome
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-16
<jphilips> bluesabre: rather than hiding xfce terminal settings in the menu, my patch renames it so its fine in the menu and settings manager - https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-terminal/-/issues/50
<ubot93> Issue 50 in apps/xfce4-terminal "xfce4-terminal: improve whisker menu search and fix terminal settings name" [Opened]
<jphilips> bluesabre: submitted two patches for your review in xubuntu-default-settings
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Switch to arch:all cd-boot-images @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=24941c8981b88b6b1a0b30d6f9fc70c6dfb834f7 (by Dimitri John Ledkov)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-17
<jphilips> the more i use gnome software, the more i hate using it - https://imgur.com/cEqxx9M.png
<jphilips> thank god for synaptic
<jphilips> bluesabre: lightdm is used in mx linux :D
<Unit193> LightDM is used in a fair bit of places, there's not a lot of options when it comes to DM.
<Unit193> LightDM, GDM (which IIRC doesn't work outside of GNOME well), SDDM (KDE's), Slim which is very unmaintained, LXDM which is also very unmaintained, and maybe XDM? :P
<jphilips> Unit193: when i was mentioning lightdm, i was specifically talking about the gtk greeter that bluesabre works on, as other distros/flavors use lightdm with a different greeter
<jphilips> curious if you replied to my question about how we could get xubuntu core as official
<jphilips> is there a GUI for configuring light-locker?
<TheMaster> jphilips: It'd be official if built on Canonical infra, eg released on cdimage.ubuntu.com.
<jphilips> TheMaster: and what steps would need to be done to get that started
<TheMaster> We've been *trying* to do it for years, it's not that the thoguht never occured to us...
<jphilips> oh okay
<TheMaster> IIRC, we've been trying since about Bionic, but I could be off on my timeline.
<jphilips> would like to help it along if i can by reaching out to popey or wimpy if need be
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-18
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar 4.15.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-4-15-0-released-tp59228.html (by Andre Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfdesktop 4.15.0 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfdesktop-4-15-0-released-tp59230.html (by Andre Miranda)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-19
<misko_> Is it possible to attach GtkPopover to the xfce panel plugin?
<misko_> :) Perhaps I can attach this GtkPopover to the xfce panel button https://pastebin.com/sV1hKAtm
<misko_> will be ok while the compositing is on
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-20
<Unit193> thunar 1.8.15 uploaded in Debian, should sync soon.
#xubuntu-devel 2020-06-21
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-eyes-plugin 4.5.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-eyes-plugin-4-5-1-released-tp59233.html (by Andre Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Installer guide is now published on ubuntu.com/server/docs @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=89a97b62d304772d5ee08716451183d76c8f49f1 (by Dimitri John Ledkov)
<bluesabre> Unit193: thanks. Are you able to test ayatana things? Working on https://github.com/Xubuntu/lightdm-gtk-greeter/issues/74, but making either indicator backend optional at build-time.
<ubot93> Issue 74 in Xubuntu/lightdm-gtk-greeter "Support Ayatana Indicators" [Open]
<Unit193> bluesabre: I can absolutely try to build it of course, but last time I tried running with either I couldn't get a indicator to show up.
<bluesabre> Unit193: cool, I'll ping you when I have something to test :)
<Unit193> Got any pointers on making indicators show up?  Will we be using the Ayatana or other backend?
<Unit193> If it's a configure switch rather than just auto detection, we can add both and make an ifdef Ubuntu thing, thus syncing the package still. \o/
<bluesabre> Unit193: https://github.com/Xubuntu/lightdm-gtk-greeter/commit/9c50d93d3c52623183e3562ed3f033533a672fbc - Supports both backends, prefers ayatana, if ayatana libraries aren't present it falls back to unity, can be overridden with configure flag `--with-libindicator=ayatana|unity`
<bluesabre> (at build time)
<bluesabre> For making indicators show up... it's been a while :D
<bluesabre> Looks like it's just the indicator name, without  any extras, so messages is `messages`:
<bluesabre> $ cat /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf 
<bluesabre> [greeter]
<bluesabre> indicators = ~host;~spacer;~session;~language;~a11y;~clock;~power;messages
<bluesabre> Unit193: so, I'm not able to get indicators of either type to load... and I think it might be because the greeter has a hard dependency on upstart for starting the indicators :o
<jphilips> bluesabre: reminder about these https://github.com/Xubuntu/xubuntu-default-settings/pulls
<bluesabre> Unit193: seems like its been broken for a while :\
<ochosi> bluesabre: if the greeter isnt used as lockscreen thats probably less of a problem though
<misko_> Hey devs and devils
<misko_> I've settled for a window instead of GtkPopover
<misko_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82bCIkLWsd0
<misko_> Popover needs a window to display
<misko_> and menu is ussualy too small
<misko_> imean panel is too small
<ochosi> misko_: i think i
<ochosi> 've never seen this plugin before
<ochosi> so it's supposed to be a shortcut for certain xfdesktop settings?
<misko_> Yes
<ochosi> a-ha
<misko_> https://github.com/Misko-2083/desktop-icons-applet
<ochosi> generally speaking this made me think that i could add an entry for desktop settings to the "show desktop" plugin
<misko_> uses libxfconf-0
<ochosi> that comes with the panel (depending on whether xfdesktop-settings is found in path)
<ochosi> but i think i don
<ochosi> 't personally buy into exposing those other settings
<ochosi> but that's just me :)
<misko_> One setting to "hide desktop" in the "show desktop" plugin would be nice :)
<misko_> ochosi have you seen a jgmenu xfce panel plugin?
<ochosi> hide desktop?
<ochosi> what does that mean?
<ochosi> no, what's jgmenu?
<misko_> jgmenu is a X11 menu that uses cairo and pango written by Johan Malm
<misko_> no gtk or qt whatsoever
<ochosi> what would i use it for?
<misko_> I've written a plugin that sets some TINT2 variables that jgmenu reads and positions itself next to the panel button
<ochosi> or: what's the selling point over using gtkmenu?
<misko_> https://youtu.be/rsK-H7seyJw?t=49
<misko_> Sorry about the video slow VM
<misko_> jgmenu can also read from stdin
<ochosi> no worries about the slow vm
<ochosi> i maybe still don't get what sets this apart from other menus - is it that you have some layouting things you can trigger with the "templating"?
<misko_> Well it's designed for scripting, ricing and tweaking.
<misko_> ochosi https://jgmenu.github.io/jgmenututorial.7.html
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: libxfce4util 4.15.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-libxfce4util-4-15-1-released-tp59234.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
<Unit193> bluesabre: That's how it worked for me too, glad I'm not the only one.  Should I still try that?
<Unit193> enable_indicator_services_command="upstart --user --startup-event indicator-services-start"  ah, right.
