#ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 2013-03-05
 * jcastro taps the mic
<med_> no stream yet jcastro, tapping the mic won't help
<med_> your stream leader will need to click the on-air button to go live.
<med_> and so he has
<med_> morning arosales.
<med_> it went live
<med_> You are good in the page
<robin-gloster> jcastro you're live
<med_> it went live almost immediately after I told arosales to hit the button.
<negronjl> hello
<med_> jcastro, yes, you can be in the hangout before it streams
<negronjl> jcastro:  How do we join the hangout ?
<negronjl> lol arosales:  smile :)
 * med_ isn't going to be in this session as per se, likely in the ceph one
<negronjl> yes
<negronjl> jcastro: yes
<jcastro> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/3e70c524fdc96a7a3f6b87af69c29d9f6ed5430c?authuser=0&hl=en
<negronjl> refreshing, jcastro
<robin-gloster> could you add lower third please
<arosales> Hello, we are going to get started
<arosales> Hangout URL: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/3e70c524fdc96a7a3f6b87af69c29d9f6ed5430c?authuser=0&hl=en
<arosales> getting started
<jcastro> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-r-juju-contributor-onramp-1
<jcastro> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-r-juju-contributor-onramp-2
<utlemming> jcastro, arosales: in your lower third, why don't you put your IRC nick
<negronjl> utlemming, they're too cool for that :)
<arosales> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1303-juju-contributor-onramp
<arosales> utlemming: how does that look?
<utlemming> aroslaes: looks good :)
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 to: Track: Cloud & Server | Juju Contributor Onramp | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21644/servercloud-1303-juju-
<mattyw> when is the documentation session?
<arosales> mattyw: good point I don't see that on the schedule yet. I'll get it scheduled for tomorrow.
<arosales> mattyw: thanks for pointing that out.
<mattyw> arosales, thanks, I'll keep an eye out
<evilnickveitch> evilnick!
<niemeyer> Where is Jorge writing?
<niemeyer> The Etherpad isn't showing anything for me
<jcastro> I'm writing in the blueprint
<jcastro> right intot he work items
<niemeyer> That means we can't see the meeting notes
<arosales> niemeyer: jcastro:  is editing the work items in https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1303-juju-contributor-onramp
<arosales> he hasn't saved it yet, so you probably don't see the update just yet.
<niemeyer> arosales: I get it.. but there's an Etherpad everybody in the meeting has in their face
<arosales> I think we are moving their next
<niemeyer> Cheers
<arosales> any comments in-line is appreicated in the pad :-)
<mariusko_> +1 for Git. Bzr sucks at merging unmerged topic branches..
<niemeyer> We *are* there
<niemeyer> People can use github today
<niemeyer> Or anything else
<arosales> niemeyer: would you like to join the hangout?
<arosales> we have room
<niemeyer> Sure
<arosales> niemeyer: try: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/3e70c524fdc96a7a3f6b87af69c29d9f6ed5430c?authuser=0&hl=en
<arosales> and any other folks that are interested in talking please join
<arosales> we have some open room
<arosales> we can accommodate 10 spots.
<Daviey> (15)
<med_> woot.
 * med_ hadn't heard 15
<med_> I'd seen one go to 11
<Daviey> we have special accounts :)
<mariusko_> How to publish an updated charm from Github?
<arosales> ah nice, so if folks would like to speak we can accommodate 15 :-)
<arosales> thanks for the info Daviey
<niemeyer> mariusko_: It'll be something like "juju publish"
<arosales> mariusko_: we also have a work item to make those docs clearer :-)
<mariusko_> That would be nice. Or publish from whatever git/bzr repo you want (possibly locally)
<niemeyer> mariusko_: But today, you can just include the .bzr in your github repo, and keep it there
<niemeyer> mariusko_: When you want to publish a new version, bzr commit, bzr push
<mariusko_> Also maybe compare with how it is done with nodejs: "npm help publish"
<niemeyer> mariusko_: Cool
<niemeyer> mariusko_: Sounds like a good idea
<arosales> utlemming: the bug file is @ https://bugs.launchpad.net/juju-core/+filebug
<robin-gloster> https://juju.ubuntu.com/get-started/maas/ first link is dead
<udsbotu> uds-servercloud-2: 5 minutes left in this session!
<arosales> robin-gloster: 404?
<arosales> robin-gloster: works for me
<robin-gloster> arosales: the first link on that site
<arosales> https://juju.ubuntu.com/get-started/maas/
<arosales> dead link ^
<udsbotu> uds-servercloud-2: 4 minutes left in this session!
<arosales> robin-gloster: gotcha thank you
<udsbotu> uds-servercloud-2: 3 minutes left in this session!
 * arosales updated work item to address dead link
<davidm> will the local provider allow you to use juju-gui and command line?
<davidm> jcastro, ^^
<udsbotu> uds-servercloud-2: 2 minutes left in this session!
<jcastro> I don't see why it wouldn't
<jcastro> but I'll check
<davidm> you can't now
<jcastro> ok I'll ask about that.
<davidm> thanks
<utlemming> Filed Bug: #1147136
<udsbotu> Ubuntu bug 1147136 in juju-core "Support for different environments files" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1147136
<davidm> it won't work du to database issues
<davidm> you can see the gui but have to install charms via cmd line
<udsbotu> uds-servercloud-2: This session has ended.
<Nordm> oh hey!
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/servercloud-2/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2.log
<arosales> mattyw: fyi the juju doc sessions is scheduled for tomorrow @ 16:00 - 16:55 UTC
<arosales> mattyw: feel free to add your self to the participation essential to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1303-juju-docs if you are interested in participating.
<arosales> mattyw: thanks aging for pointing out that session was missing.
<mattyw> arosales, no problem, thanks for letting me know when it's booked for
<arosales> mattyw: for sure, hopefully we'll "see" you there
<mattyw> arosales, I've definately got some idea for documentation we could add, I'll add myself to the participants list
<arosales> mattyw: great, I look forward to hearing them.
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 to: Track: Cloud & Server | Juju Training Events | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21645/servercloud-1303-juju-training-events/
<arosales> marcoceppi: Hello
<arosales> jcastro: marcoceppi also had some good ideas about charm testing.
<jcastro> rock and roll!
<arosales> marcoceppi: were you planning on joining the Juju Charm Testing session at 19:05 (1pm central)?
<arosales> marcoceppi: I subscribed you to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-juju-charm-testing just in case you were interested.
<arosales> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21645/servercloud-1303-juju-training-events/
<arosales> Lets get started :-)
<pixelpapst_> jup
<robbiew> I'm here...heh
<mattyw> arosales, jcastro if you can save it so that people can watch it back that's a great bonus, both for teaching people, but also they can help advertise future events
<mattyw> ^^ webinars
<arosales> mattyw: +1 on saving
<evilnickveitch> jcastro, the trick is to choose the harder things for webinars - things that people are likely to have questions on
<mattyw> arosales, I'd love to see a screen cast of someone making a simple charm - from scratch to deployed (and working). I've found the documentation to be ok for learning about how to write charms. But it would be great to see a recommended workflow for charm development
<arosales> mattyw: agreed we would like to have course/road map including making a simple charm
<mattyw> arosales, it's the workflow which is important I guess - or at least one of the important things to learn
<evilnickveitch> arosales, there should be a good correlation between the screencasts and our user journeys. It would be handy to link them in the docs too.
<evilnickveitch> aroslaes, I also don't mind recording some.
<mattyw> evilnickveitch, arosales I'm going to regret this but I'd be ok to record some as well
<mattyw> arosales, jcastro I think it would be useful, I used juju set
<mattyw> arosales, +1 everything you just said
<mattyw> arosales, jcastro I'm not sure what the plan is for juju-core - but we might want to think about a video about the differences????
<arosales> evilnickveitch: agreed on the correlation  between screen casts and user journeys.
<mattyw> jcastro, when is that lightning talk?
<arosales> http://jujucharms.com/charms/precise/mongodb
<jcastro> http://jujucharms.com/charms/precise/mongodb/config
<mattyw> jcastro, I think he left
<jcastro> bummer
<mattyw> jcastro, I agree if that counts ;)
<jcastro> \o/
<jcastro> evilnickveitch: you get that? relations and interfaces
<evilnickveitch> jcastro, I am listening :)
<mattyw> jcastro, arosales forgive me for not joining the hangout - I'm eating
<evilnickveitch> heheh
<evilnickveitch> arosales, yes, and vice-versa, hopefully
<evilnickveitch> screencasts should reference the docs
<mattyw> I'm done
<evilnickveitch> aroslaes, okay :)
<arosales> :-)
<arosales> empowered
<arosales> jcastro: you updated the work itesm we had, correct?
<jcastro> yep
<mattyw> arosales, jcastro not sure if you saw it but I'd be happy to help out with some of those screencasts
<jcastro> all pruned and updated
<jcastro> mattyw: yeah, feel free to add a workitem for yourself
<jcastro> so like
<jcastro> [mattyw] Do a screencast on foo
<marcoceppi> arosales: yes, I do plan on attending
<arosales> jcastro: 	ok, I will update the whiteboard now then
<arosales> marcoceppi: cool, thanks :-)
<mattyw> jcastro, on foo?
<jcastro> mattyw: or I can just chase you down when we start, whatever floats your boat
<arosales> mattyw: +1 on helping with the screen casts :-)
<mattyw> jcastro, either way is fine
<arosales> jcastro: is always looking for volunteers :-)
<jcastro> mreed: more for the docs sessions, but we could use a hand reviewing when we redo the docs parts
<jcastro> "does this suck less than when you tried it last?" basically
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 to: Track: Cloud & Server | Juju Charm Testing | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21648/servercloud-r-juju-charm-testing/
<arosales> evilnickveitch: I am going to port the pad to the white board now
<jamespage> arosales, can I have an invite to charm testing please
<evilnickveitch> arosales, ok, cool
<arosales> I'll capture your recent adds, but be sureto update the whiteboard for any other additions.
<arosales> jamespage: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/3c1f41916d419fbe0b2b5e31c350ab7e8b3ced47?authuser=0&hl=en
<mreed> jcastro:  I would be happy to help review the docs
<arosales> marcoceppi: feel free to join the hangout too if you would like ^
<marcoceppi> I would need to...put myself together first
 * medberry is listening in.
 * med_ is listening in.
<arosales> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-juju-charm-testing
<med_> thyat died abruptly
<marco-summit> Shouldn't that be a blocker for the charm to not be in the store?
<marco-summit> nevermind, I guess you can't fault the charm for the provider not being fully supportive.
<marco-summit> Right
<wedgwood> how well can you test relations if the interfaces are not well-defined?
<brunogirin> does it mean that the charm should be able to specify what capabilities it expects from providers?
<wedgwood> jamespage: the u1 guys have been adding lots of unit tests to the charms they're touching
<jcastro> http://jujucharms.com/~ju-jistics-hackers/precise/phoronix-test-suite
<dweaver> I agree the idea of listing provider capabilities that a charm is has as dependency would mean you get immediate feedback when deploying a charm that a provider hasn't got the right capabilities.
<wedgwood> arosales: the interface *names* are defined, but not the data/handshake they make
<marcoceppi> wedgewood, there's not strict convention for that, and that's a limitation for charmrunner. It only checks if the relations is made without errors, not that the data is properly being sent on the wire
<wedgwood> so I suppose it's really the workload testing that might be an issue. "pushing data" as you say
<marcoceppi> those are all arbitrary names
<marcoceppi> The interface is the real important part
<marcoceppi> So you can have a db relation
<marcoceppi> actually
<marcoceppi> let me just join the hangout
<wedgwood> heh
<wedgwood> marcoceppi: exactly! but where's that spec?
<arosales> wedgwood: we don't have one :-/
<arosales> but taking volunteers :-)
<wedgwood> marcoceppi: that's right. yep.
<marcoceppi> https://juju.ubuntu.com/Interfaces/http
<wedgwood> I've run into this a few times, particularly when we are tempted to overload an existing interface.
<wedgwood> marcoceppi: ah, yes, all of those are gone
<marcoceppi> http://jujucharms.com/interfaces/mysql
<wedgwood> I think that would be helpful
<brunogirin> it'd be nice to know what parameters each interface provide too
<brunogirin> and makes sure that similar interface such as mysql and postgresql behave in the same wya
<dweaver> How about create a section in the wiki for documenting interfaces to start people off.
<wedgwood> here's the use-case I'm thinking of: we like database interfaces to provide a DML user and a DDL user. the typical example stack, wordpress, doesn't include that.
<arosales> hangout url https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/3c1f41916d419fbe0b2b5e31c350ab7e8b3ced47?authuser=0&hl=en
<arosales> wedgwood:  ^ feel free to join
<marcoceppi> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5588570/
<wedgwood> arosales: ta, but I'd have to get that up on my laptop. little time left, and I'm pretty happy with the discussion so far.
<wedgwood> marcoceppi: that looks very much like a deployment tool
<wedgwood> marcoceppi: which is something we're trying to get figured out
<arosales> wedgwood: ok, np. Just wanted to offer :-)
<wedgwood> arosales: ok, and now I'm interested again. jumping in
<brunogirin> like cucumber? http://cukes.info/
<brunogirin> jenkins is the CI system so would actually call the testing framework
<dweaver> https://github.com/cucumber/cucumber/wiki/Jenkins-integration
<brunogirin> at the end of the day, there are dozens of testing framework out there so as long as we choose one that is well documented, rather than inventing yet another one, it should make it easier to write tests
<elmo> cucumber requires ruby
<elmo> as in, requires you, the charm writer, to write ruby to translate from the "pseudo-English" DSL into what it's actually doing
<elmo> introducting YAL into the mix isn't a good idea, IMO
<elmo> (disclaimer: it's been a while since I looked at cucumuber, I say it requires, but I really meant 'required' - I don't know if it still does)
<brunogirin> elmo: fair enough, I didn't think of that
<med_> yet another lang
<elmo> (YAL == yet another language)
<elmo> sorry
<med_> brunogirin, was the cuke sponsor
<dweaver> Yes, requires ruby
<med_> not mew
<rbasak> There are other implementations of the same DSL in other languages, I believe. There's a Python implementation IIRC.
 * rbasak looks
<mattyw> rbasak, lettuce I think?
<rbasak> That rings a bell
<mattyw> rbasak, ISTR it wasn't too bad
<rbasak> But ultimately it's just the general mechanism, right? Do we need to settle on a language at all? LIke we don't for charms.
<arosales> rbasak: http://lettuce.it/ correct ?
<brunogirin> what about doing something on top of the Go testing framework? I don't know how good it is
<rbasak> Yes. Thanks mattyw and arosales
<mattyw> brunogirin, go's testing language is fairly minimal but ok
<brunogirin> and what about performance and security testing of charms? or is that opening another can of worms?
<mattyw> brunogirin, there's also https://launchpad.net/gocheck
<arosales> https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/django-users/979lJojyxs0
<arosales> good stuff
<brunogirin> thanks, it's moving slowly :-)
<med_> Gut Stuph, ya vohl.
<med_> thanks arosales
<mattyw> Thanks guys, see you tomorrow
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/servercloud-2/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2.log
#ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 2013-03-06
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 to: Track: Cloud & Server | WebScale Packaging Review | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21658/webscale-packaging-review/
<mattyw> jcastro, ping?
<Daviey> starting shortly
<jamespage> Daviey, great!
<jcastro> mattyw: pong!
<jcastro> oh, sorry, that machine is rebooting
<jcastro> on my way!
<Daviey> anyone else joining?
<nealmcb> Video "the live event will begin in a few minutes" :)
<Daviey> (the fishbowl)
<Daviey> nealmcb: just trying to get everyone seated
<nealmcb> :)
<arosales> Hello
<arosales> we are getting started with WebScale Packaging Review session
<mattyw> jcastro, you're lightning talk about go juju later - are you going to talk about why it's been re written in go?
<arosales> any folks here for that session
<jamespage> arosales, so whos running the hangout?
<jamespage> arosales, yes
<arosales> jamespage: me
<zyga-uds2> hi
<jamespage> arosales, URL?
<arosales> https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/f940f0bbd48c29bcb1f6f6d4646ea5dbcef5ed6d?authuser=0&hl=en
<zyga-uds2> QUESTION: all three seem to be in the archive today, is this session about wrapping them in juju or something else?
<Daviey> oops, wrong channel :)
<arosales> jamespage: will you be able to join?
<jamespage> arosales, yeah - getting and error joining - just trying with chrome
<arosales> jamespage: ok, thanks.
<jamespage> arosales, OK _ so I can't join the hangout for some reason
<jamespage> I'll tune in and participate via IRC
<nealmcb> great set of etherpad notes to start the session!
<nealmcb> Video still not showing - is anyone talking yet?
<jamespage-not-in> o/
<dweaver> nealmcb, yes, the video is working for me
<jamespage-not-in> arosales: I'm on it
<nealmcb> still says "this live event will begin in a few moments".  I'll try reloading again
<arosales> nealmcb: reload the page
<nealmcb> But please do note in irc each time the video goes live for a session
<nealmcb> ok, got it
<jamespage-not-in> arosales: I poked mongodb enough last night to get 2.2.3 into raring
<jamespage-not-in> sans SSL support
<arosales> jamespage: ah great to hear
<jamespage-not-in> IMHO nodejs itself moves far to fast to be in main
<jamespage-not-in> utlemming: ^^
<jamespage-not-in> yeah and thats OK until we get 10x
<jamespage-not-in> its the support that would be a killer - esp security I think
<jamespage-not-in> I would actually prefer to see a series align set of PPA's for nodejs
<jamespage-not-in> 6.x 8.x 10.x etc. etc.
<mariusko_> We are using Node for development, and the PPA version is sufficient, but not the released ones in distro.
<jamespage-not-in> for openstack what we have in distro 6.x is sufficient
<mariusko_> Other deps, we get from npm
<jamespage-not-in> BUT we don't use it for openstack-dashboard runtime - just to generate the less assets statically
<jamespage-not-in> RE PPA - there is a maintained PPA already
<jamespage-not-in> https://launchpad.net/~chris-lea/+archive/node.js
<jamespage-not-in> maybe I'll write a less compressor in python and remove the dependency for openstack
<jamespage-not-in> :-)
<jcastro> mattyw: it'll mostly be an overview on feature parity. We haven't done a thorough benchmark quite yet.
<nealmcb> reliance on specific node.js versions sounds like the messy world of java dependencies - ouch...
<mattyw> jcastro, ok thanks
<jamespage-not-in> I have tested the SSL support
<mariusko_> A version of nodejs in backports would be better I think than PPA, or supply different versions for the user to decide.
<jamespage-not-in> had some issues on armhf
<jamespage-not-in> utlemming: agreed
<niemeyer> FWIW, it's not clear that we cannot include it
<jamespage-not-in> GPL code linking to OpenSSL without exception
<niemeyer> THere is a specific exception about distribution software with a distribution, IIRC
<jamespage-not-in> niemeyer: you are correct - we are following the Debian stance right now
<niemeyer> We should talk to a lawyer
<jamespage-not-in> niemeyer: Ubuntu can elect todo something different
<jamespage-not-in> niemeyer: upstream don't believe there is an issue
<niemeyer> jamespage-not-in: If we can legally ship it, it sounds like a big service we'd be doing to people
<jamespage-not-in> niemeyer: agreed
<mariusko_> Making the ppa endorsed as "official" would probably have the same effect
<niemeyer> Since we'd be matching precisely the exception rule
<mariusko_> Recompiling wont work when you run "juju add-unit -n 10"
<mariusko_> You end up with manual work or different version in different machines
<jamespage-not-in> just around mongodb
<utlemming> mariusko_: that's was my point about repeatability.
<niemeyer> 2.4 is around the block
<niemeyer> Do we have plans for including it?
<jamespage-not-in> arm support is currently a distro patch (again)
<jamespage-not-in> niemeyer: yes
<niemeyer> jamespage-not-in: Super, thanks
<mariusko_> japp, about nodejs
<jamespage-not-in> utlemming: something with arm support would be good
<jamespage-not-in> chris's PPA does not have that
<mariusko_> Regarding the mongo&SSL, isn't upstream breaking license too?
<jamespage-not-in> mariusko_: I don't think so
<niemeyer> A PPA is a PPA.. blessing it or not doesn't make a lot of difference in practice it seems
<niemeyer> There will still be a package in main, that will be out of date
<niemeyer> Upstream cannot ship it
<niemeyer> We can
<niemeyer> (apparently)
<niemeyer> We should ship it if that's true
<arosales> niemeyer: mainly I think folks are looking for a way to have confidence in a package and get the latest in terms of node.js.
<elmo> utlemming: kind of
<jamespage-not-in> utlemming: yes
<niemeyer> +1
<jamespage-not-in> elmo: do you have a different take on this?
<elmo> the distinction is the wording of 'major essential component'
<elmo> and whether or not openssl counts as such for Ubuntu
<elmo> I'm not qualified to say whether or not it does
<elmo> but it's not about whether or not we actually ship libssl
<elmo> Debian does too
<elmo> it's about whether we/lawyers are happy for that to be considered a major essential component
<niemeyer> +1
<utlemming> More information from the Gnome Folks: http://people.gnome.org/~markmc/openssl-and-the-gpl.html
<elmo> anyway, this is details, and I doubt we can resolve it here
<ayr_ton> Can I help with the task of "Identify specific advantages of nginx over apache"?
<jamespage-not-in> OK - lets move on from mongodb
<jamespage-not-in> I've requested a OpenSSL license exception from upstream to resolve this cleanly
<niemeyer> None here :)
<niemeyer> no disagreements, that was
<mariusko_> What about JBoss?
<jamespage-not-in> utlemming: would you like to pickup the work items for nginx?
<jamespage-not-in> mariusko_: hmm - massive amout of work to package
<jdstrand> some parts of jboss is in universe from Debian. aiui, there is a lot that is not there
<jcastro> utlemming: I don't think so
<jcastro> oh, I am wrong then. :)
<jamespage-not-in> they are extremely out of date
<sbeattie> does nginx have a publicly visibile VCS yet? (supportability issue)
<jamespage-not-in> utlemming: its not
<jdstrand> utlemming: ^
<jdstrand> arosales: only some parts
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: yes, it does
<jamespage-not-in> you can't run jboss from the archive
<med_> howdy
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: ah okay
<mariusko_> JBoss version in Ubuntu is outdated (4.2.x)
<med_> FPI ended so others are joining
<jamespage-not-in> some of its components are present - but just to support other java packages
<jamespage-not-in> the effort to package it fully is not worth the effort
<jamespage-not-in> its better charmed
<jdstrand> it has regular security updates from RedHat
<utlemming> Current release is 7.1
<jdstrand> it would be non-trivial to support
<mdeslaur> yes, it does, I checked
<jdstrand> I haven't looked
<jdstrand> utlemming: I was talking about jboss there, not nginx
<jamespage-not-in> I would completely support jdstrand on this
<jdstrand> I have opinions on nginx, but they are probably out of date
<elmo> (<bitter>the lag between IRC and the hangout is awesome</>)
<mdeslaur> http://trac.nginx.org/nginx/browser
<utlemming> code: svn://svn.nginx.org/nginx
<arosales> sbeattie: ^
<mariusko> http://wiki.debian.org/JBossPackaging
<sbeattie> arosales: thanks
<jamespage-not-in> I looked at jboss 2 years ago and ruled it out as a possibility to have effective packaging
<med_> mariusko, look at MIR for jboss?
<mariusko> MIR?
<med_> Main INclusion Request in ubuntu
<jamespage-not-in> arosales: thats not the right question
<med_> he may not be familiar
<jamespage-not-in> the question is - who wants to package Jboss
<mariusko> I'm not sure right now. Most users install it manually I think, but for Juju it would be important to have it included.
<med_> Not I.
 * jamespage-not-in stands back
<elmo> jboss is java right?  AFAIK jamespage packages all the Java stuff for Ubuntu
<jcastro> :)
<med_> mariusko, for Juju, you don't have to have it packaged.
<mdeslaur> haha
<jamespage-not-in> elmo: I've already expressed my position on this
<med_> that's why he's using a hidden nick today
<jcastro> from my limited experience with jboss, it's not a simple stack
<mariusko> Sure, you could have juju script that fetch it from upstream somehow
<jamespage-not-in> I'm not working on this full time for the next 12 months to get together packages which are not maintainable
<mariusko> Maybe RedHat would be interested in contributing to getting JBoss in.
<jcastro> I don't think "packaging jboss" is the issue. To do real jboss support we'd need like 2 more jamespages.
<med_> bwahahahaha.
<dedalus> i missed varnish discussion, but i'd be interested in helping with that
<jamespage-not-in> this is far more effectively dealt with using Juju and the release tarball from upstream
<jamespage-not-in> lets talk about varnish
<jamespage-not-in> is ivoks here? hmm - no
<dedalus> ah, i guess i didn't miss it :)
<med_> jamespage-not-in, the "effectively dealt" is w/r/t jboss, right?
<jamespage-not-in> med_: yes
<Daviey> jamespage-not-in: Are you suggesting a pool of upstream carried jar's is hard to work with, in packaging ?
<jcastro> I know the varnish packager guy
<jamespage-not-in> Daviey: don't make me cry
<jamespage-not-in> Daviey: OK so it could be packaged (binary style) for Canonical partner
<jdstrand> varnish has a security history (3 CVEs)
<jcastro> Their webpage recommends to not use the distro packages btw:
<jdstrand> arosales: no, but it has a security history (3 CVEs)
<jcastro> https://www.varnish-cache.org/installation/ubuntu
<jdstrand> heh
<jcastro> so if upstream doesn't like the packages
<jamespage> makes it much harder
<utlemming> "Varnish is distributed in the Ubuntu package repositories, but the version there might be out of date, and we generally recommend using the packages provided by varnish-cache.org."
<dedalus> they say they only support LTEs
<dedalus> erm, LTSs
<jamespage> I think if we want to look at this we need to reach out to upstream to discuss
<jcastro> (Full disclosure): I have a work item to convince them to just do that in the charm.
<elmo> mithrandir works for the company behind varnish, last I heard
<jdstrand> arosales: this attitude from upstream gives me some pause. it suggests they don't support older versions, only the newest
<jcastro> looks like they just want to be able to keep it up to date out of band
<jcastro> elmo: still does last I checked
<mariusko_> Juju charm does install it: http://jujucharms.com/charms/precise/varnish/hooks/install
<jdstrand> arosales: which becomes difficult at the tail end of LTS
<mariusko_> The distro version
<dedalus> also on that page: Please be advised that we only provide packages for Ubuntu's LTS releases, not all the intermediate releases. Note that the packages might still work fine on newer releases.
<jcastro> utlemming: right, but the idea was to get them to add a feature to the charm to use their version
<ivoks> i think the problem is that the version we have in quantal was released in 2011
<ivoks> they don't have that much new versions
<jdstrand> I'm less concerned about their packaging. a consideration is how the handle their own releases. that could be fleshed out in the MIR
<ivoks> s/much/many
<jcastro> either way, whoever we get to do the packages should probably just start by talking to upstream first to see what their concerns are about distro packages
<jcastro> aka "How can we ship Varnish that would meet your requirements?"
<jdstrand> if there isn't a lot of code churn, upstream's attitude on their support becomes less of a concern (which I think ivoks was hinting at)
<jcastro> which is much better than their download page saying "don't use ubuntu's packages"
<jdstrand> again, that is something that could be discussed in the MIR process
 * jcastro nods
<jamespage> just as a side note we need to be better at evaluating whether a Minor Release Exception is appropriate for packages we MIR
<dedalus> note Debian also has varnish
<dedalus> http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/varnish
<jamespage> this might be appropriate for varnish
<jamespage> which might help oil things with upstream
<jcastro> "Varnish is distributed in the Debian package repositories, but the version there might be out of date, and we generally recommend using the packages provided by varnish-cache.org or packages from backports.debian.org."
<jcastro> heh, same issue
<jamespage> we should also leverage backports more in Ubuntu as well for this stuff
<ivoks> jamespage: +1
<jcastro> arosales: yep, assign it away!
<jamespage> I intend to request backports of mongodb for precise
<jamespage> and quantal
<med_> and if they don't "in" the hangout they can't defend themselves.
<med_> go for it.
<mariusko> Btw, the mongodb package is outdated yes, for quantal and precise
<Daviey> I question how exciting backports are
<mariusko> Was just updated in Raring.
<Daviey> They are as hard to use as a PPA, and have roughly equal distro support
 * jdstrand has to go
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 to: Track: Cloud & Server | Juju Application Stacks | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21643/servercloud-1303-juju-app-stacks/
<jamespage> ta
<arosales> session ended
<jamespage> ttfn
<arosales> thanks for everyone's time.
<ivoks> we will never have 100% happy upstream since, by nature, we are moving slower than they are; if we would like to make everybody happy, we would have to drop LTS and move to always rolling release
<ivoks> and then no one would use the distro :)
<arosales> Juju Application Stacks getting kicked off.
 * marcoceppi raise?
 * niemeyer wonders if jcastro moved back to CUba
<niemeyer> Yay
<marcoceppi> \o/
<jcastro> niemeyer: wrong flag! I am offended!
<marcoceppi> deploy all the node apps
<mariusko__> hi
<marco-summit> It's too early for that
<rbasak> arosales: worth trying I think. Good idea! But note that people following the stream have no hope of seeing anything in there unless you select it.
<jcastro> elmo: are you in this session?
<rbasak> Probably more useful when other charms want a memcached relation?
<marcoceppi> It's a key player, but it's not a large key player
<elmo> jcastro: I just joined
<elmo> jcastro: which charm sorry?
<arosales> rbasak: right, if we focus on the IRC  I will give it focus
<rbasak> arosales: makes sense!
<elmo> jcastro: checking prodstack now, but I don't believe we're using it yet
<elmo> jcastro: I think it's part of a lego stack
<elmo> it doesn't feel like a standalone full 'stack' like e.g. rails would
<elmo> jcastro: ah, so summit was using it
<elmo> jcastro: so it's at least functional
<elmo> and uccs.ubuntu.com (which is not yet live in prodstack, but is deployed) is using it
<marco-summit> It's definitely functional, been using it myself for quite a bit
<niemeyer> arosales: The IRC window works..
<marco-summit> I don't think any one service has a hard requirement for memcached, a lot use it in a supplementary nature
<elmo> arosales: so, in theory, if your service can't function without a cache, your service is broken
<elmo> arosales: or so lifeless tells me
<marco-summit> elmo: +1
<niemeyer> arosales: I think it can be made on demand
<niemeyer> elmo, marco-summit: Sure, but needing data in a cache != needing a cache service
<elmo> niemeyer: sure, I was partially being flip
<niemeyer> I think it's not a high-priority either way
<elmo> niemeyer: I agree, some services are going to expect memcache to be available, but we've met that bar
<elmo> jcastro: it's the remote login service that modern unity can use
<jcastro> ack
<rbasak> arosales: +1 for IRC idea. I think it might be particularly useful for those watching the recording later, too.
<marco-summit> rbasak: yeah, I can see that being really helpful. Only downside is there's a bit of lag between what we hear and what they say
<rbasak> Yeah the lag is annoying but more fundamental to any live interaction with the hangout I think. IRC included.
<elmo> jcastro: nope
<elmo> some people use redis as a persistent store
<elmo> which makes it slightly different case to memcache
<mattyw> would anyone here be interested in a neo4j charm?
<elmo> jcastro: yeah, that's my reaction ;-)
<marco-summit> I've used redis in production, it works along the lines of memcached. Simple to set up
<jcastro> mattyw: YES! give me a second to finish out this list
<jcastro> then we can move on to new work!
<marco-summit> cham works as expected
<elmo> jcastro: yep
<mattyw> jcastro, ummm
<jcastro> mattyw: :)
<mattyw> arosales, I've only ever played around with it
<niemeyer> It's a graph database
<mattyw> arosales, but there's a company behind it, maybe they'd be interested in helping out?
<niemeyer> Somewhat of a unique one
<mattyw> niemeyer, have you used it? I wrote a toy application to work my way around the london underground, but that was about it
<niemeyer> mattyw: No.. I just follow along and watch from the distance
<jcastro> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=685615
<udsbotu> Debian bug 685615 in wnpp "RFP: neo4j-community -- Neo4j is a high-performance, NOSQL graph database with all the features of a mature and robust databas" [Wishlist,Open]
<niemeyer> It's a different class of database than any of the listed ones really
<niemeyer> It's not about whether it's a webapp or not.. more about what's the use case
<niemeyer> It's very useful for graph-related problems
<niemeyer> Network of friends, etc
<niemeyer> The real question in the context being debated, though, is how many people have we found that have an app using it
<mattyw> I could give it a go
<mattyw> I'm no expert though, but I'm happy to take a look
<mariusko> I have some real life experience with NodeJS charm, and I believe it has issues common with other user app charms, to get user code deployed
<niemeyer> Huh?
<mariusko> See https://bugs.launchpad.net/charms/+source/node-app/+bugs?field.status:list=NEW
<niemeyer> jcastro: The *data* is, sure..
<jcastro> ack
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/servercloud-2/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2.log
<marco-summit> cheers
<arosales_> Session ended
<arosales_> Thanks for everyone's time
<philipballew> Hello world!
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 to: Track: Cloud & Server | Improve Juju Documentation | Url: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21692/servercloud-1303-juju-docs/
<arosales> philipballew: hello
<arosales> Getting started with http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21692/servercloud-1303-juju-docs/
<evilnickveitch> arosales, I hope someone is going to invite me to the hangout :)
<arosales> you should see the hangout URL when you load http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/meeting/21692/servercloud-1303-juju-docs/
<arosales> evilnickveitch: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/f87b2b24c412bee262b5e31d2c0633f24a1d9831?authuser=0&hl=en
<jcastro> roll call! \o
 * marco-summit o/
<melmoth> hi there
<mattyw> I'm here again
 * philipballew waves
<mreed> waves
<jcastro> https://stripe.com/docs btw is what I mean
<jcastro> as an example of awesome docs
<arosales_> melmoth, mattyw, mreed , hello :-)
<arosales_> marco-summit, hello :-)
<marcoceppi> markdown.
 * marcoceppi is not biased
<marco-summit> Most of all the javascript, if any, should probably be at the template level anyways
<marco-summit> So contributors won't have to mess with it
<marco-summit> jcastro.md
<marco-summit> Everything should be in LaTeX :P
<marco-summit> +1 definitely annotate the anatomy of a charm. There really isn't a good place for this
<marco-summit> out there currently
<marco-summit> evilnickveitch: I tried my hand at this a while ago:
<marco-summit> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p--PQprZI8-rGr68M_zW-4rdftaIu6-h6n_UGtfk-Ws/edit
<marco-summit> As sort of "the docs really suck at being organized"
<evilnickveitch> marco-summit, thanks !
<marco-summit> I'd be interested in helping contribute more up to date documentation when time permits
<evilnickveitch> marco-summit, okay, thats cool, we should keep in touch
<mattyw> it would be good to know when the docs get updated
<mattyw> somehow????
<mattyw> cool
<mattyw> cheers!
<marco-summit> cheers!
* udsbotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2 to: Currently no events are active in this room - http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-1303/servercloud-2/ - http://ubottu.com/uds-logs/%23ubuntu-uds-servercloud-2.log
<mreed> waves
