#ubuntu-devel 2004-10-25
<hornbeck> Is there a way for me to convert my daily system to use all the default artwork?
<sabdfl> hornbeck: right click on the desktop, and select the Ubuntu Default Desktop
<hornbeck> it just did it by its self
<hornbeck> crashed my x for some reason
<hornbeck> than came back up with the new artwork
<hornbeck> who are the people?
<sabdfl> models
<hornbeck> figured
<sabdfl> the default desktop for new installs has the ubuntu logo
<hornbeck> yeah I have it up
<hornbeck> nice brown
<hornbeck> I like it
<sabdfl> but the preview had the calendar selected, so everyone who had the preview and even looked at the desktop options, gets the calendar now
<hornbeck> man for some reason when it crashed it launched another x display
<hornbeck> hmm
<sivang> we need to tell them somewhere that more is available
<sivang> more artwork, that is
<hornbeck> wiki?
<sivang> for instance :)
<sivang> there needs be readme like doc on the wiki I suppose. to explain how to get over certain quirks that might get fixed or noticed on the release.
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> we need to just figure out a way to organize the wiki alittle better
<hornbeck> need a sitemap on it
<amu> sabdfl: congratulats to the idea with the pics :)  
<sivang> yes, we do. firstly, the documentation areas needs to become the documentation develop area,
<sivang> as it's more of a collectiong of docs and stuff. I am going to organize the /UDP page,
<sivang> so it will look more as a starting point for people seeking the latest documetation which is not on *.ubuntu.com
<hornbeck> I think we should have one main page for docs that links off to new docs
<sivang> (yet)
<hornbeck> well at least we agreed on that
<sivang> ok cool.
<sabdfl> amu: thank you
<hornbeck> sivang do you want to start putting that together
<hornbeck> sivang we need to do a site survay to see where all the docs are
<sivang> I'm on to it \
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> yes
<sabdfl> but let's wait for the full response
<sivang> everybody, please let us know if this is annoying the RC stuff here..:)
<sivang> we might do it on #ubuntu-docs
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> I think we are fine right now
<hornbeck> sivang: did you see the new start page for firefox?
<sivang> hornbeck : yes I did, mark sent me the final.
<hornbeck> cool
<sivang> hornbeck : however, it doesn't include the gfx, what's on there gfx wise?
<hornbeck> sivang: just the logo at the top
<hornbeck> we need to get some how-tos for the site also
<sivang> cool
<hornbeck> or tutorials that is
<sivang> agreed
<sivang> however, we might want to save all this decisions for until the meeting?
<hornbeck> I am making a list of things to bring up at the meeting
<sivang> so a larger crowd would attend and comment, suggest, take up tasks etc? what do you think?
<hornbeck> stuff I think needs to be done
<sivang> great
<hornbeck> I am just thinking outload :)
<sivang> send over when done.
<hornbeck> did you ever get tomboy working?
<hornbeck> cause it is all in tomboy notes
<sivang> I did on the laptop,
<sivang> I'll install it here.
<hornbeck> ok, so would you rather a ooo file
<sivang> why not it's already installed here :)
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> 2.49 eta for RC testing...
<hornbeck> I am so happy people have keep with my format on the hardware support
<sivang> can anybody tell if I might get better throughput using rsync instead of the torrent?
<Mithrandir> sivang: probably rather the other way around
<hornbeck> sivang: notes on ideas on the way.
<hornbeck> tomboy really needs a export function
<sivang> hornbeck : thanks
<hornbeck> no prob
<sivang> Mithrandir : you mean rsync is better? Looks like it, the torrent only use 50% of my bandwidth
<Mithrandir> sivang: no, the torrent should be better.
<sivang> Mithrandir : I've had better results with the rsync untill now. maybe the torrents have dropped (I've used to get those at 98Kb/s) due to heavy load.
<Mithrandir> the torrents should go up with load, not doewn
<Mithrandir> s/doewn/down/
<sivang> oh right, cause you have more uploaded..
<Mithrandir> yup
<sivang> upstream seeds
<hornbeck> I added the info about the doc meeting to my blog
<hornbeck> since I know there are some ubuntu users who read it
<hornbeck> opps that was supposed to be pm to sivang
<sivang> no prob :)
<lamont_r> moof
<mdz> moof?
* lamont_r is between a private lesson and the evening's jujutsu class
<lamont_r> did we hear any more from alex yet?
* lamont_r goes to class.  on again in a couple hours.
<lamont_r> what's the word on netgear wireless cards?
<lamont_r> prolly 802.11g
<Keybuk> "I'd be upset if my splash screen suddenly featured a tribute to Ronald Reagan, or a reminder that Jesus loves me."
<Keybuk> ...ah, the memory of gimp splash screens past
<sivang> hhaa. iso donwloaded. going to test RC on my new SCSI fileserver :-)
<m_tthew> Keybuk: 'The Politically Incorrect Release'
<sivang> got some errors on the SCSI AIC-7xxx driver on boot up, but post install seems to be running smoothly
<sivang> also got "pciehp" module insertion error
<sivang> "Operation not permitted"
<sivang> ok, not to download live cd
<sivang> *now
<Keybuk> ooh, Python 2.4
<sivang> Keybuk : word has it you're the Python lead and expert for Ubuntu, how do you get accepted to the Python team? :)
<sivang> Keybuk : I meant, how can someone can accepted to that fine high lever programming team? :)
<Keybuk> to be honest, I haven't really put a huge amount of thought into it yet
<Keybuk> I'm mostly involved with other Canonical projects at the moment, and spending only relatively little time on Ubuntu
<sivang> Keybuk : Oh, I see. ARCH, rozetta and freinds?
<Keybuk> the general focus will be getting Python scripting support into every application
<Keybuk> and brushing up and evangelising that which already exists
<Keybuk> yeah, I'm working on the really kick-arse arch stuff :p
<sivang> Keybuk : does it menifest on arch's CVS? or , coming to think of it, ARCH's arch archive? :-)
<Keybuk> nah, there's no public manifestation of what I'm working on yet; soon, hopefully
<sivang> Keybuk : canonical had spawned a private tree of the code, and would flush it back when done?
<Keybuk> nah, it's not directly related to the arch code; more exciting things you could do with arch :o)
<sivang> Keybuk : sounds very apptetiting :)
* lamont_r tries to import a disk with sound juicer, and discovers that 'music player' doesn't find any of the .ogg's...
<lamont_r> why is that, I wonder?
<lamont_r> maybe I should finish my upgrade?
<sivang> lamont_r : i try to upgrade my dpkg's failing on me...:)
<lamont_r> ouch
<lamont_r> 202 upgraded, 1 newly installed.
<fabbione> morning guys
<fabbione> mdz: you around?
<sivang> morning fabbione
<sivang> up so early?
<sivang> feeling better?
<mdz> fabbione: yes
<fabbione> sivang: i was ok yesterday too :-)
<mdz> fabbione: how is the move going?
* lamont_r heads for home.
<fabbione> mdz: portmap. i can upload it, but didn't you have the packages already?
<mdz> fabbione: yes, I have a .changes ready to upload
<fabbione> mdz: i decided to stay another day here at the old house and have the office on the floor
<fabbione> mdz: it will give my ISP another day to fix the adsl line at the new house
<mdz> ah
<fabbione> mdz: do you want me to do another .changes or will you upload it directly?
<fabbione> mdz: in anycase tomorrow i must move out. either to the new house or to the other office
<mdz> fabbione: I thought it might be good to wait some time after the RC before uploading new packages
<fabbione> mdz: make sence
<fabbione> mdz: but we need to get these new packages tested as well
<mdz> fabbione: but on the other hand, I would like for it to get as much testing as possible before final
<mdz> :-)
<fabbione> mdz: i think you should upload it
<mdz> fabbione: I think we are both very confident that it does not break the desktop
<fabbione> mdz: i am confident
<mdz> my only concern is users who are running NFS and such
<fabbione> desktop is working fine here
<mdz> you tested client or server or both?
<fabbione> mdz: yes
<fabbione> client is 100% ok
<mdz> I have been without sleep for a while, so excuse my poor recall :-)
<fabbione> server needs to be reconfigured in case
<fabbione> mdz: it's ok.. blame bugzilla that deleted all the nice report i did yesterday
<mdz> I wrote some notes in bugzilla
<mdz> fabbione: justdave fixed that, by the way
<fabbione> mdz: yup
<mdz> fabbione: do you think there is any _simple_ way we can make the NFS server Just Work if the user installs it?
<mdz> I guess the answer is, "wait for hoary"
<mdz> when hopefully we can get rid of fam, and follow the plan I outlined in bugzilla
<mdz> jdub: what are the odds on replacing fam for Hoary?
<fabbione> yes i read the comments
<fabbione> i agree with them
<mdz> gamin seems to be active
<mdz> so hopefully it will be a viable option
<mdz> ok, I guess I will upload
<fabbione> i mean.. who implements a nfs server has at least a minimum knowledge of filysystems
<fabbione> and what to look for
<daniels> mdz: so the GetModeLine isn't OK now?
<fabbione> it's not that simple for a newbie to write an exportfs
<mdz> but I am not aware of any other unix which ships a portmap listening only on localhost by default
<fabbione> mdz: too bad for them :-)))
<mdz> daniels: we have a list of serious issues to deal with; let's leave trivial items for Hoary
<fabbione> daniels: what GetModeLine? the 099l ??
<mdz> I don't object to the patch, but we need to change as little as possible between now and final
<fabbione> mdz: let's discuss X in a few minutes ok?
<mdz> fabbione: ok
<fabbione> i am preparing an interdiff
<fabbione> but working from the floor doesn't make me any faster ;)
<mdz> I would like to give gzip a good workout
<mdz> but there is nothing to upgrade :-)
* fabbione uploads X to make mdz happy
<mdz> har har
<fabbione> mdz. you can simulate ;)
<fabbione> dpkg-getselection > log
<fabbione> apt-get --reinstall install < log
<fabbione> or something like that
<mdz> daniels: do you realize that xscreensaver writes a line to stdout (and thus ~/.xsession-errors) whenever it activates anyway?
<mdz> there is a lot of work to be done on eliminating unnecessary disk access, but it is a Hoary project
<daniels> fabbione: yeah, 099l
<daniels> mdz: ok
<mdz> if you try to reinstall many packages at once, apt tends to get confused
<fabbione> mdz: well .. that's how i saved my server once
<fabbione> mdz: / was lost in lost+found
<mdz> eek
<fabbione> found dpkg via md5sum
<fabbione> and the minimum pieces required to run apt
<daniels> impressive
<fabbione> also via md5sum
<mdz> that is a lot of pieces
<mdz> glibc and nss and libapt and the methods
<fabbione> mdz: not if you have /var/lib/dpkg/info intact
<fabbione> script to check md5sums
<fabbione> and to move files around according to them
<mdz> fabbione: I noticed in my testing that when you upgrade portmap, it does not restart :-/
<fabbione> once you get the minimum working
<fabbione> zack
<mdz> I do not know if the bug exists in Debian
<fabbione> hmm it did here
<mdz> I don't have any more Debian systems to test
<fabbione> wait a sec
<mdz> every time in my test upgrades, it would still be listening after upgrade
<mdz> because it was still the old process
<fabbione> dpkg - warning: downgrading portmap from 5-4ubuntu4 to 5-4ubuntu3.
<fabbione>  * Stopping portmap daemon...                                            [ ok ] 
<fabbione> Installing new version of config file /etc/init.d/portmap ...
<fabbione>  * Starting portmap daemon...                                            [ ok ] 
<fabbione>  * Restoring old RPC service information...                              [ ok ] 
<fabbione> same when upgrading
<mdz> I will test in a moment when I upgrade my NFS server :-)
<mdz> once the package is built
<fabbione> mdz: back in 5 minutes to discuss X
* fabbione needs to visit the thinking room
<mdz> Mithrandir: ping?
<mdz> asleep I suppose
<mdz> only Mithrandir, elmo and Kamion seemed to have been able to reproduce the gzip bug
<mdz> Mithrandir gave me an account on his system, but his IP seems to have changed
<fabbione> re
<fabbione> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~fabbione/diff
<fabbione> mdz: ^^
<mdz> reading
<fabbione> ubuntu24 to ubuntu25
<mdz> fabbione: do you have tiff prepared?
<fabbione> there are a lot of noisy bits like changelog, CHANGESETS, TODO
<fabbione> mdz: i woke up when i said goodmorning here
<mdz> ah
<fabbione> mdz: i am going to do it after we discuss the diff
<fabbione> it won't take too long since the patches are in bugzilla
<fabbione> don't worry about it
<fabbione> i only have one pending change to the FAQ
<fabbione> but i guess that's not an issue ;)
<mdz> the doc updates of course I have no problem with
<mdz> we need to talk about xkb, v4l and #2328
<mdz> I read #2328, but from only the bug, it is impossible to tell either the problem or the fix :-)
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> mdz: 2328 is a simple fix
<fabbione> it's at the end of the diff
<mdz> it is hard to see with such a long line; what is the change?
<fabbione> -      db_get xserver-xfree86/config/monitor/mode-list
<fabbione> +      if [ -n "MAXRES" ] ; then
<fabbione> +        RET="MAXRES"
<fabbione> +      else
<fabbione> +        db_get xserver-xfree86/config/monitor/mode-list
<fabbione> mdz: is in xserver-xfree86.postinst.in and .templates
<mdz> the end of the diff is a template change
<fabbione> yes and the bit before it
<fabbione> there are 2 problems basically
<daniels> fabbione: shouldn't that be $MAXRES?
<fabbione> daniels: correct
<daniels> because "MAXRES" will always be strlen() != 0
<fabbione> fixed
<fabbione> mdz: Carlos specific problem is that his resolution
<fabbione> was not known at @60Hz
<fabbione> so basically debconf was returning 640x480 @ 60Hz
<fabbione> as default value
<fabbione> but this is a specific fix
<fabbione> reviewing the logic
<fabbione> i noticed that can happen for all the unknonw resolutions
<fabbione> now if MAXRES exists it means that we are either probing or guessing
<fabbione> and it contains the same value as the template (theoretically)
<mdz> this change is very uncomfortable to me
<fabbione> mdz: it's simple
<fabbione> it's difficult to explain
<mdz> it had one bug already
<fabbione> mdz: i didn't finish all the tests yet
<fabbione> it's not like i wouldn't have spot it
<mdz> the problem with changing anything in the detection logic at this point is that we can never re-test all of the hardware that has been tested
<mdz> we have had hundreds or thousands of tests at this point
<fabbione> mdz: it doesn't really change the logic
<fabbione> it fixes it 
<fabbione> mdz: if you see the script carefully:
<fabbione> MAXRES = something
<fabbione> db_set template $MAXRES
<fabbione> later:
<fabbione> db_get template
<mdz> yes...
<fabbione> and than we compare what's in there with the list
<fabbione> now
<fabbione> limitation:
<fabbione> the template might not be aware of that MAXRES
<fabbione> debconf returns the default of 640x480 @ 60Hz
<fabbione> the frequencies detection goes banana
<fabbione> the if then else fi
<fabbione> simply avoids a limitation to the debconf template
<fabbione> and it is not intrusive.
<mdz> under what circumstances is MAXRES set?
<fabbione> i am not "growing" the template like i did for the other resolution list
<fabbione> MAXRES is set only when we cannot detect the frequencies via xresprobe
<fabbione>     # if we are here we did not detect the frequencies, but we have the resolution.
<fabbione>     # get the highest resolution.
<mdz> so MAXRES is the answer to the mode question
<mdz> so this changes the behaviour for (potentially) every circumstance where the user is asked the mode question
<fabbione> nope
<fabbione> because the mode list is all known and mapped to mode-list
<fabbione> so if the user is promped for the resolution it can only enter well known values of MAXRES
<fabbione> that will match later on the values into the frequencies case
<sivang> i wonder if fixing this would allow high quality displays to do above 100hz freqs :)
<fabbione> sivang: not in your case
<fabbione> it's another bug here we are talking about
<fabbione> mdz: what you need to look at is this:
<fabbione>     # set a sane default for mode-list
<fabbione>     MAXRES="$MAXRES @ 60Hz"
<fabbione>     db_set xserver-xfree86/config/monitor/mode-list "$MAXRES"
<mdz> yes
<fabbione> the problem happens only if MAXRES is not known to the template
<mdz> currently, that falls back to the default in the template if $MAXRES is not in the choices
<mdz> the default is 1024x768 @ 60 Hz
<fabbione> mdz: apparently no, if you try to set the template and than db_get
<fabbione> you get the first value of the list
<fabbione> that might be a frontend bug
<mdz> I agree
<mdz> that is a bad debconf behaviour
<fabbione> frontend ;)
<fabbione> does it look too dangerous to you?
<fabbione> otherwise there is another simple way to implement it
<fabbione> if that can make you feel better
<fabbione> i can db_get the template
<fabbione> if the MAXRES is != null and the 2 are the same than ok
<fabbione> otherwise prefer MAXRES to db_get
<fabbione> same effect as you see it in the patch
<fabbione> kust written in a different way
<fabbione> s/kust/just/
<mdz> here is my concern
<mdz> well
<mdz> is there any possibility of this affecting any case other than when 640x480 @ 60Hz would be the result?
<mdz> how can we test this?
<fabbione> nope
<fabbione> mdz: simply asking carlos to test the new package
<fabbione> he has the testcase ;)
<mdz> I am not so concerned about the bug
<fabbione> and just try to reprobe on well known machines
<mdz> it seems to affect very few people
<mdz> it is the regression testing
<fabbione> mdz: well not really a few...
<mdz> which cases do we need to test for regressions?
<fabbione> there were a bunch of people having the 640x480 problem
<mdz> where xresprobe fails?
<fabbione> mdz: where xresprobe returns a resolution but not a frequency set
<fabbione> you can even wrap xresprobe to simulate that for you
<fabbione> just write a bogus sh script to return:
<fabbione> rabidbt: blabla
<fabbione> ops
<fabbione> identifier: blabla
<fabbione> freq:
<fabbione> res: 1024x768
<fabbione> or something like that
<fabbione> that will trigger the MAXRES
<fabbione> but you need to use a not known resolution
<fabbione> no discard my last comment
<fabbione> it can be also on well known resolution
<fabbione> it doesn't really matter
<lamont> mdz: looks like the preview set calendar as the default, so anyone upgrading a preview to current bits gets people.
<mdz> lamont: if that is happening to _anyone_ who upgrades from preview, there is a new and interesting bug somewhere
<mdz> it is known to happen to anyone who even breathed on the background preferences dialog
<mdz> fabbione: it is all a question of how much testing we can get for it
<lamont> mdz: I didn't change background preferences prior to today, and when I pull that up, it says 'ubuntu monthly calendar'
<mdz> lamont: you don't have to change them; you only have to look
<lamont> I see.
<mdz> anyone who has a ~/.gnome2/backgrounds.xml or whatever
<mdz> will get a surprise artwork change
<lamont> I see
<lamont> ok.
<lamont> and does removing the file make things better, or worse, I wonder?
<mdz> removing the file should give you the new default
<mdz> which is the gradient+logo background
<mdz> fabbione: thanks for the explanation, I understand the change much better now
<mdz> fabbione: can we talk about xkb?
<lamont> mdz: so which all prism drivers do we have now?
<fabbione> mdz: of course.
<mdz> lamont: I don't think we add any prism drivers, but we do add the firmware for prism54
<fabbione> mdz: we have 2 problems with XKB
<mdz> so we have whatever is in the 2.6 tree
<lamont> mdz: so prims54 should "just work", or should be "trivial to enable"?
<mdz> lamont: should 'just work' post-installation
<fabbione> mdz: for the testing i can simulate all the cases replacing xresprobe. that's not a problem
<mdz> may or may not work in the installer, not sure of the status of that one
<fabbione> mdz: it was already in my TODO. it's not like i tend to push untested changes
<fabbione> mdz: let's go with xkb when you are ready
<lamont> mdz: what about liveCD?
<mdz> lamont: the live CD has a completely different kernel
<mdz> fabbione: I need 10 minutes for workrave
<fabbione> mdz: ok
<mdz> wrists are killing me
<fabbione> mdz: i need to help my gf a few minutes so it fits perfectly ;)
<lamont> we publish a livecd RC?
<lamont> looks like the answer is 'no'
* lamont checks and discovers that his warty mirror will fit on a dvd.  Just barely
<lamont> well, about 20MB to spare.. :-)
<mdz> lamont: I thought you weren't able to build one which booted
<mdz> lamont: did you and alex find a solution?
<lamont> mdz: haven't heard from alex since he headed for home.
<mdz> lamont: please keep on him
<lamont> but he had uploaded one, and it looks like we held off on calling that an RC.
<lamont> he's on the top of my list.
<mdz> the one that he built was based on day-old stuff, rather than the RC packages
<lamont> right
<lamont> have there been any post-rc uploads yet?
<mdz> fabbione: back
<fabbione> me too
<fabbione> xbk problems
<fabbione> there are 2 issues that i am aware of at the moment
<fabbione> the first is that some layout are "multi layout" capable
<fabbione> no clue what that means, but that's how it works
<fabbione> basically these multilayout requires extra definitions in a bunch of files
<fabbione> the last changes we imported are to support a number of extra multi layout thingy
<fabbione> and it includes a cleanup in the direction
<fabbione> (that was between ubuntu23 and ubuntu24)
<fabbione> apparently there is a regression
<mdz> what kind of testing can we do?
<fabbione> for the Super key 
<fabbione> mdz: no idea really...
<fabbione> other than testing the minimal stuff
<fabbione> like the windows key and stuff like that
<fabbione> it also means that you need to set the layout on the specified language to be able to see if it works
<fabbione> and need to be familiar with it
<fabbione> so i am not completely sure how to test stuff in that direction
<fabbione> the only person that seems to understand xkb is denis
<fabbione> (and upstream of course)
<fabbione> now
<fabbione> regarding the regression is a chicken egg problem at this point in time
<fabbione> either i revert the changes done between ubuntu23 and ubuntu24
<fabbione> but we lose a big bunch of layouts
<fabbione> or we try to update to the last changes Denis did.
<fabbione> Also Denis commented a lot in the bug reports
<fabbione> that most of these problems are also application problems
<fabbione> and he explained some workaround that I am NOT happy to implement
<fabbione> and daniels agreed too
<fabbione> like using the alt:whatever_win option in X
<fabbione> i truly believe that the best thing to do is keep going on Denis direction
<fabbione> also becuase the same things will hit Debian soon
<fabbione> and we will not be too different in that area
<mdz> this sounds very risky
<fabbione> in this area?
<mdz> we do not know how to test if the bugs are fixed, we do not know how to test for regressions, and we do not understand the system very well.  on all points we basically trust denis
<fabbione> everything is risky
<fabbione> mdz: that's what we are doing in debian too
<mdz> fabbione: debian is not releasing in a few days
<mdz> they will have weeks or months to shake out the bugs
<fabbione> mdz: that's not my point :-))
<fabbione> that neither Branden or I have the knowledge to say what Denis is doing is correct or not
<mdz> we cannot afford to take the same risks as Debian unstable
<fabbione> so he has kinda of "licence to kill"
<fabbione> mdz: i don't disagree
<fabbione> what i am saying is that there are 2 options
<fabbione> we kill the changes
<fabbione> we keep going on them
<mdz> why can we not leave it alone?
<fabbione> first option: we kill the layouts for a bunch of coutries (including ca)
<fabbione> second option: we at least try to improve the situation
<fabbione> i am not leaving it alone because we know that there are bugs and it is not working for everybody
<fabbione> the fact of killing layouts does not make me happy
<fabbione> specially when something like ca is involved
<fabbione> .ca <-
<sivang> maybe get the changes on a seperate package , have it downloaded and tested by the reporting parties, just like after preview went out?
<mdz> fabbione: how does the gnome keyboard capplet get information about the layouts?
<fabbione> mdz: my best guess is that at the first startup it checks X config
<fabbione> mdz: later it stores its own info
<fabbione> reason why you can see the popup like: "hey you little punk! you changed the X config keyboard setup!!!"
<mdz> fabbione: it has text descriptions for all layouts
<mdz> which I do not see in the xkb data
<fabbione> mdz: it depends how it is implemented
<mdz> this is another thing to be concerned about
<fabbione> what i am sure about is that gnome doesn't know the xkb protocol upside down
<fabbione> and that's why there are inconsistencies
<fabbione> what i am concerned about is why gnome needs its own keyboard layer, instead of using what is there already
<fabbione> but that's off topic now
<mdz> do you understand my concerns about these changes?
<fabbione> yes i do
<mdz> there are so many unknowns, and we could end up with a serious bug in the release that we can do nothing about
<fabbione> mdz: we can simply bounce the problem to the gnome people :)
<mdz> they will not be able to fix it in warty either
<fabbione> and tell them to write their application compliant to the X protocol
<fabbione> and they will tell that X has to be gnomified :P
<fabbione> so i mean i can leave it as it is now
<fabbione> but i don't think it will change anything
<mdz> +  * Replace level3(ralt_switch_multikey) by level3(ralt_switch) in all
<mdz> +    layouts so that symbols on the 4th column may be accessed with
<mdz> +    Shift+Alt_R or Alt_R+Shift.  (Closes: #270235)
<mdz> I have no idea what that is about
<mdz> and it is only a severity: normal bug in Debian
<mdz> I cannot say if the change is correct
<mdz> I cannot test it
<mdz> how can I approve this kind of change for late inclusion in the release?
<lamont> mdz: was there a 'how to get the old gdm splash' writeup somewhere?
<fabbione> mdz: i am not trying to sell you a prodocut or something.. don't misunderstand me
<mdz> lamont: FAQ
<fabbione> mdz: i dunno that shit either. i am in the same position as you are. both cases we lose.
<lamont> dih
<lamont> doh
<fabbione> mdz: either because we don't have the fix or because we might introduce a bug
<daniels> fabbione: personally, I still prefer a whitelist to MAXRES
<mdz> given a choice of two sets of bugs, I choose the known over the unknown every time
<daniels> largely because timings can often be totally absolutely bong
<daniels> e.g. 2777x2700 or whatever it was
<daniels> mdz: btw, there are about two people in the world with xkb knowledge -- denis and svu@fd.o
<fabbione> mdz: ok. at what level do you want me to revert?
<mdz> fabbione: let's go over the changes one by one
<fabbione> daniels: and Ivan Pascal
<mdz> fabbione: what about this v4l stuff?
<fabbione> mdz: it fixes the support for the v4l2 bttv
<mdz> I didn't even know that X used v4l
<fabbione> mdz: see the debian bug and the diff.
<mdz> what applications use this interface?
<fabbione> xawtv?
<fabbione> & CO?
<mdz> xawtv opens /dev/video
<mdz> or uses Xv
<fabbione> Xv is for output
<fabbione> we are talking about input
<fabbione> if you have a video card with a bttv iface
<fabbione> (like i ghave on my machine)
<fabbione> i get the v4l loaded
<fabbione> otherwise i don't see tv ;)
<daniels> fabbione: yeah, but after looking at his code, I'm convinced he doesn't know too much :P
<mdz> fabbione: so it is for video cards with built-in capture?
<fabbione> mdz: yes
<fabbione> mdz: i saw it loaded also for normal tuners, but i cannot confirm 100% if 
<fabbione> it is used by them
<mdz> I do not think it is used for a standalone capture card
<mdz> X would not be involved at all
<mdz> I have a bttv card
<mdz> I do not even load the v4l module
<fabbione> ok
<mdz> fabbione: is your card broken without this patch?
<fabbione> it does on mine and i have a gfx card with bttv integrated
<fabbione> mdz: no because mine is a v4l
<fabbione> the patch fixes v4l2
<fabbione> that is the new protocol/standard
<fabbione> mdz: but yes.. mine works
<mdz> very little uses v4l2
<mdz> fabbione: the 1152x768 thing is just adding a mode to the template choices, right?
<fabbione> yup
<fabbione> mdz: yes
<fabbione> mdz: that's how i spotted also the other more generic problem
<mdz> so carlos was affected by both of those bugs?
<fabbione> mdz: yeps
<fabbione> the missing entry in the template
<fabbione> and the other thing we discussed before
<fabbione> it can definetely be improved.. but not for warty
<mdz> there were other reports of #2328?
<mdz> even carlos did not report this until today :-/
<fabbione> mdz: mostly on irc and mailing list
<fabbione> i don't have all the references at the moment
<fabbione> but i remember them for sure
<mdz> the other bugs we are fixing for final are melting laptops, breaking katie, security issues, and reverting one patch in hal
<fabbione> yes i read the mail
<mdz> the X issues don't seem to be of the same severity to me
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> mdz: let's drop ubuntu25 and that's it.
<fabbione> people will have to wait for X.org
<mdz> fabbione: I think that is for the best
<fabbione> mdz: i agree only for one thing
<fabbione> and possibly the xkb stuff
<fabbione> but for the other fixes i don't
<fabbione> in anycase we need to release
<fabbione> so people will get what's in now
<mdz> I know it's hard to know about the bugs and not fix them, but sometimes that is what we need to do
<daniels> fabbione: please put 099l and the XKB stuff in a TODO stuff somewhere
<fabbione> daniels: it's in bugzilla already
<daniels> 099l isn't
<fabbione> daniels: the XKB stuff we will go 100% upstream for X.org
<daniels> but I'll file that bug
<daniels> not for 6.8
<daniels> i can kick it upstream, but not for a 6.8.x release
<daniels> but if we use my modular approach, and use xkbdata from fd.o, I can kick it upstream there
<lamont> mdz: are we supposed to get a libxvidcore4-dev somewhere/time?  a fair chunk of multiverse is blocked on it, if we care.
<fabbione> lamont: marillat archive?
<lamont> fabbione: it's more to get it shoved into the archive...
<lamont> or dsl
<lamont> EWINDOW
<fabbione> lamont: i know that i get that package from marillat :-))
<fabbione> lamont: that's it..
<fabbione> i didn't follow multiverse too much 
<fabbione> ENOTIME
* lamont only follows it to the extent that it sends him mail.
<fabbione> Package: libxvidcore4-dev
<fabbione> Source: xvidcore
<fabbione> Maintainer: Christian Marillat <marillat@debian.org>
<fabbione> probably it wants more stuff
<lamont> multiverse/doc/xvidcore_1:0.9.2-0.3: Installed [optional:uncompiled] 
<lamont> and therein lies the issue.
<pitti> Morning, guys!
<vorlon> ok, why does ubuntu's main archive include ndiswrapper-utils if there are no ndiswrapper module packages? :-)
<sivang> just did an rc install.
<daniels> vorlon: er, the ndiswrapper module is in the main kernel packages
<vorlon> daniels: bah, that's cheating!
<sivang> apart from d-i no saying "no enough room on drive" when choosing to install to not enough room partition, everything went swift
<sivang> it's just ingnores your partitioning actions
<daniels> vorlon: did you try 'sudo modprobe ndiswrapper'? :)
* lamont sleeps
<vorlon> daniels: no, it never occurred to me that it'd be part of the stock kernel package. Allow me to express my jealousy on behalf of sarge. ;)
<daniels> vorlon: heh, thanks.  graciously accepted. ;)
<mdz> lamont: dunno about xvidcore, ask elmo
<mdz> vorlon: hey
<fabbione> hey vorlon 
* vorlon waves to the Night Crew.
* mdz yawns
<daniels> yeah, I'm reppin' the night crew at 1407
* daniels makes flashy hand signs.
* sivang nearly drops infront of the new artwork
* lamont makes a note to pass some questions on to silbs in the morning
<sivang> darn. my lumix camera still doesn't work..
<sivang> and it's a standard SD flash storage cam
<mdz> fabbione: can you take care of gzip?   it needs for Tollef to verify the fix since he can reproduce it, and then I think it can be uploaded (more testing is appreciated of course)
<mdz> I will need to sleep very soon
<daniels> mdz: anything else to fix?  i'm currently wandering through the acpi fan/tz bug
<mdz> daniels: I posted a list to u-d
<vorlon> ok, ndiswrapper question solved, now all the system needs is a good tool for managing wireless connections for roaming users. ;)
<mdz> basically, severity: critical bugs
<daniels> so you did, and I even replied to it
<mdz> daniels: #2341 could certairly use regression testing
<daniels> mdz: yeah, I'll keep on that
<fabbione> mdz: sure. go and get a good night rest
<mdz> thanks
<fabbione> mdz: i am doing regression testing on libtiff now
<Mithrandir> mdz: pong
<mdz> Mithrandir: oh, good
<mdz> Mithrandir: I need you to test #1854
<Mithrandir> dhcp-103-140.idi.ntnu.no
<Mithrandir> I'll test
<pitti> sivang: please try http://www.piware.de/hal_0.2.98-1ubuntu9_i386.deb, maybe it works with your cam
<mdz> ok, I'll log out and leave it to you
<sivang> pitti : ok, didn't know you were awake..:)
<pitti> sivang: I got up at 6am, because I went to my gf yesterday evening
<pitti> sivang: just returned home
* Mithrandir thinks it has been sillily little traffic on the torrent overnight,  ~7G i386, ~2G amd64 ~0.15G ppc.
<sivang> pitti : ok going to test your packages
* pitti crosses his fingers
<mdz> Mithrandir: yes, the response to RC has been understated
* pitti notices that one can't type with crossed fingers
<mdz> at least in part due to lack of slashdotting
<daniels> ok, I'm working on kernels to fix the thermal/fan issue
<daniels> new initrd-tools, then rebuilding kernels to deal with that
<Mithrandir> mdz: seems good so far, doing a bit more testing before letting you off the hook
<mdz> daniels: please go ahead and attach a proper debdiff to the bug; I don't think there is one already
<mdz> Mithrandir: do your worst
<sivang> pitti : should I have done anything but dpkg - <pkg> and reconnect the camera?
<pitti> sivang: should work (if it works)
<sivang> pitti : didn't :(
<pitti> sivang: damn!
<daniels> mdz: will do
<mdz> fabbione: portmap just did it again
<mdz> tcp        0      0 *:sunrpc                *:*                     LISTEN
<mdz> Preparing to replace portmap 5-4ubuntu3 (using .../portmap_5-4ubuntu4_i386.deb) ...
<mdz>  * Stopping portmap daemon...                                            [ ok ] 
<mdz> Unpacking replacement portmap ...
<mdz> Setting up portmap (5-4ubuntu4) ...
<mdz> Installing new version of config file /etc/init.d/portmap ...
<pitti> sivang: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/FrequentlyAskedQuestions, point 8
<mdz>  * Starting portmap daemon...                                            [ ok ] 
<mdz>  * Restoring old RPC service information...                              [ ok ] 
<mdz> tcp        0      0 *:sunrpc                *:*                     LISTEN
<mdz> oh, my /etc/default/portmap is wrong
<mdz> is the one in the package correct
<mdz> ?
<sivang> pitti : there a bug# to attach to?
<pitti> sivang: just mail the stuff to me
<mdz> no, it is totally buggy
<sivang> pitti : sure, no probe
<fabbione> mdz: the one in the pkg has ARG="-i 127.0.0.1"
<mdz> really?
<mdz> there is one out there with OPTIONS= in it
<fabbione> # By default, listen only on the loopback interface
<fabbione> ARGS="-i 127.0.0.1"
<mdz> rather than ARGS
<mdz> are you sure that is the one in the archive?
<fabbione> mdz: this is your package
<sivang> pitti : hal sees it, btw
<mdz> fabbione: the one I uploaded to the archive was wrong
<pitti> sivang: that's good
<mdz> I am fucking up left and right, need to sleep
<fabbione> mdz: ok go to sleep
<mdz> fabbione: will you fix it?
<fabbione> mdz: i will upload asap the portmap with ARGS
<mdz> great, thanks
<mdz> good night all
<fabbione> mdz: libtiff is ready for upload too
<fabbione> mdz: regression tests are ok
<sivang> night mdz
<fabbione> mdz: and the new package spawns proper errors
<pitti> mdz: new hal package is on http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~pitti/utopia/
<pitti> mdz: shall I anounce it separately or do you want to copy it in your repo?
<fabbione> "Programmers don't die! they just GOSUB without RETURN"
<Mithrandir> 11 upgraded, 601 newly installed, 0 to remove and 97 not upgraded.
<Mithrandir> Need to get 415MB of archives.
<Mithrandir> that should be a nice test.
<pitti> mdz: night
<daniels> mdz: sleep well, dude
<sivang> pitti : sent
<fabbione> mdz: fixed portmap and fixed tiff are up
<fabbione> mdz: good night dude :-))
<daniels> my DSL hates me for downloaing the kernel stuff, and my laptop will hate me for compiling it
<fabbione> the moving company is here
<fabbione> brb
<sivang> pitti : any luck?
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'm happy.
<sivang> pitti : at first glance the code looks ok, though it lacks sufficient documentation to my taste
<pitti> sivang: which code?
<Mithrandir> icky, debootstrap + apt-get install ubuntu-desktop breaks:
<Mithrandir> Unpacking lsb (from .../archives/lsb_2.0-1_i386.deb) ...
<Mithrandir> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/lsb_2.0-1_i386.deb (--unpack):
<Mithrandir>  trying to overwrite `/lib/lsb/init-functions', which is also in package lsb-base
<Mithrandir> dpkg-deb: subprocess paste killed by signal (Broken pipe)
<sivang> pitti : network-admin
<pitti> sivang: the code looks good???? It's a mess!
<fabbione> Mithrandir: that's bad!
<pitti> sivang: well, not a mess, but a little more synchronous wouldn't have hurt
<fabbione> how come we didn't see that with cd install?
<Mithrandir> fabbione: I don't know
<sivang> pitti : well, I did find it _very_ hard to see where it really sends requests to the backends, but then again one cannot disregard my newbieness on this :)
<fabbione> Mithrandir: ok. let me see if it happens here too
<fabbione> Mithrandir: did you use any special command to bootstrap?
<fabbione> or just debootstrap -> chroot apt-get install ?
<sivang> pitti : I have been trying to get a hold of where this _actually_ happens. in regard to #2221
<Mithrandir> fabbione: yes, just debootstrap + apt-get install
<fabbione> ok
<Mithrandir> (naturally creating a sources.list between)
<fabbione> yeah :-)
<Mithrandir> probably my fault, I had ftp.se in sources.list; will have to try again
<sivang> anyway, need to get some sleep. nighterz all
<fabbione> i am checking now
<fabbione> almost completed the bootstrap
<fabbione> apt-get install now
<fabbione>  *art-stop-daemon: nothing in /proc - not mounted?                       [fail] 
<fabbione> there is something wrong with the error message
<fabbione> it's lacking a char
<fabbione> and a space
<Mithrandir> ftp.ubuntu.com is slooow
<Mithrandir> only 1MByte/sec
<daniels> heh
<fabbione> Mithrandir.
<daniels> wonder how much auckland is pushing out
<fabbione> it looks ok here
<Mithrandir> fabbione: ook, good, checking myself as well
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> Mithrandir: i confirm.. it's ok here
<fabbione> ok we are still at 9 RC bugs
<Mithrandir> that's 9 too many :/
<Mithrandir> 1854 is fixed, just pending upload
<fabbione> Mithrandir: if it works i guess you can go with it
<Mithrandir> nah, mdz has the fixed package in rc-bugs-fixes (or what it's called), so he
<Mithrandir> 's handling it.
* Mithrandir runs off for class
<fabbione> Mithrandir: later mate
<daniels> BUGGER.
<daniels> kernel ftbfs.
<daniels> cp -p debian/patches/00list-17 debian/patches/00list
<daniels> cp: cannot stat `debian/patches/00list-17': No such file or directory
<daniels> make[1] : *** [debian/monolith/patch-2.6.8.1-17]  Error 1
<daniels> make[1] : Leaving directory `/home/daniels/canonical/kernel/linux-source-2.6.8.1-2.6.8.1'
<jdub> mdz: we will almost certainly replace fam for hoary.
<daniels> jdub: with gamin?
<jdub> yeah
<|trey|> daniels: yes, says that on the HoaryHedgehog release plans  :)
<daniels> ah right, figured out the correlation
<fabbione> ooook
<fabbione> since there are only RC bugs left and assigned
<fabbione> it's time to start to do something more interesting ;)
<plovs_work> wiki still does not work, //htdocs/warthogs/css/common.css was not found on this server
<plovs_work> moinmoin not correctly configured?
<plovs_work> might be missing: Alias /wiki/ "/usr/local/share/moin/htdocs/" in /etc/httpd/httpd.conf
<seb128> morning
<fabbione> hey seb128 !
<seb128> hello fabbione 
<pitti> Hi seb128!
<seb128> hello pitti 
<fabbione> daniels: nobody other than Danzer commented on the way i proposed to split the includes
<fabbione> daniels: i am definetely going to divide them
<daniels> i need to give it more thought
<fabbione> daniels: ok. for me it's either solution 3 or solution 4
<fabbione> daniels: given that we will hit that problem
<fabbione> daniels: we don't know yet
<daniels> i like the way I split it up :)
<fabbione> daniels: i don't trust the way you did :P
<daniels> fabbione: heh, why not?
<fabbione> daniels: just shitting on you :)
<daniels> haha
<fabbione> daniels: did you book the flight and the hotel?
<fabbione> i kinda need to know when you will arrive to come and pick u up at the airport
<daniels> fabbione: flight booked, haven't found a hotel yet
<fabbione> daniels: ok. do you want me to search one for you?
<daniels> fabbione: i arrive on the 31st of nov, probably late
<fabbione> 31st of Nov??
<daniels> fabbione: if you could find one, that would be great.  it's kinda hard to find one just in english :)
<daniels> er
<fabbione> time doesn't really matter
<daniels> october!
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> sure i will take a look
<fabbione> do you have any special requirements?
<daniels> not really, no
<daniels> internet access probably preferred
<fabbione> daniels: i will see what i can find
<fabbione> budget/day ?
<daniels> there seems to be a strong correlation between having an english-language website and being bloody expensive ;)
<daniels> thanks a lot
<fabbione> oh everybody or almost speaks english
<fabbione> so that's not a problem
<daniels> dunno, probably below EUR100
<daniels> ask the people approving the budget ;)
<daniels> but yeah
<fabbione> daniels: ok
<daniels> i don't know how cheap/expensive hotels are there though
<fabbione> neither do i :)
<daniels> heh
<fabbione> i just realized that i didn't read d-d ml for like 3 weeks and there was not even an interesting message
<fabbione> i should consider to unsub from it
<daniels> heh
<daniels> i haven't been subscribed for ages now
<daniels> i'm not missing it
<fabbione> hey rburton 
<rburton> hi fabbione
<seb128> hum, I've some files corruption and crashes, seems to be a memory problem :/
<seb128> bbl
<Sledge__> morning
<Mithrandir> moo
<thom> marnin'
<thom> i feel so much more human after 13hours sleep
<daniels> thom: word
<daniels> thom: ready to get back into the firefox groove? ;)
<daniels> i busted into 12 lsat night
<thom> i was checking that apache2 patch last night and it took me 5 attempts to type RENEGOTIATION
<thom> which was not ideal
<Kamion> 9 hours sleep, not what I needed but it'll do for now
<daniels> thom: hey man, I typoed VERBOSITY into VEROBSITY
<daniels> thom: and I counted eight attempts to type my GnuPG password before I nailed it
<thom> heh
* fabbione kills more needs of X11 ;)
<fabbione> daniels: xconfig is now perfectly able to bootstrap without the need of external includes
<daniels> cool
<fabbione> not even the evil ../../exports/include
<daniels> i hate ../../exports/include
<daniels> hm.  lots of people suggesting forums instead of lists, but IME, forums scale far, far, far, far, far worse than lists.
<rburton> forums suck donkey balls
<rburton> personally i'd create a forum but say that ubuntu support is primarily on the lists
<rburton> then i'd get the IPs of people who use the forum, find out where they live, and send them hate mail
* rburton appears to be in a bad mood today
<thom> daniels: why are you doing new kernel packages to fix the thermal/fan problem?
<daniels> thom: new initrd
<thom> when the trivial fix is a two line flip of mkinitrd
<Kamion> uh. doesn't the initrd get built on the fly?
<thom> daniels: uh, you know the initrd is generated at install time
<daniels> holdasec, gotta clean up, apparently. (/me is sick of being dragged away from work)
<fabbione> Kamion: indeed it is
<Kamion> run the installer with a hacked initrd-tools dropped in
* mjg59 is entertained by the response to the artwork
<Mithrandir> hi Matthew
<fabbione> xmkmf 
<fabbione> imake -DUseInstalled -I/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/config
<fabbione> xmkmf 
<fabbione> imake -DUseInstalled -I/usr/share/xorg/config
<fabbione> Mithrandir: see what i mean ;)
<Mithrandir> fabbione: huh?  wrt nvidia-settings?
<thom> as long as the forums/lists are bidirectional gated
<thom> and only for the users list
<fabbione> Mithrandir: yes
<Mithrandir> and doesn't break threads, include the author's name and such.
<Mithrandir> fabbione: what you mean I need to run both xmkmf and imake?
<thom> and does in reply to right
<fabbione> Mithrandir: no no... when i asked you to switch from a generated Makefile to use xmkmf
<fabbione> Mithrandir: one upload and it's done automatically with the new settings
<Mithrandir> oh, ok.
* rburton reads ubuntu-users archive, rofl at keybuk's black death comment
<daniels> thom: cool, I suck.
<daniels> Kamion: should I have a bash at a CD image with a hacked initrd-tools and ask the ACPI bongsippers to drop it in?
<daniels> thom: ubuntuforums.org has a bidirectional list<->forums gate
<Kamion> daniels: sounds plausible to me; new package, edit dists/warty/main/binary-i386/{Packages,Packages.gz} and dists/warty/Release
<thom> daniels: what? just put the initrd-tools somewhere and then do "apt-get --reinstall linux-image-foo"
<daniels> Kamion: phat
<Kamion> the rune to make the ISO is "mkisofs -r -V 'Ubuntu 4.10 i386 Bin-1' -o warty-install-i386-hacked.iso -cache-inodes -J -l -b isolinux/isolinux.bin -c isolinux/boot.cat -no-emul-boot -boot-load-size 4 -boot-info-table wherever-your-new-tree-is"
<daniels> thom: yeah, because we need a higher barrier to entry when convincing people to test :P
<thom> --reinstall install
<daniels> Kamion: i am in awe of your d-i skillz
<thom> daniels: WHATevah. but the two main whiners are spiv and keybuk, so they're gonna do what i'm suggesting i'd bet
<daniels> thom: fair cpo
<daniels> also, fair cop
<Kamion> "in addition ..."
<Kamion> "AMONG our spelling errors"
<daniels> heh
<mjg59> daniels: Intel's download for the extreme graphics drivers seems to include support for putting different displays on the different pipes - do you know if this is supported by the free drivers?
<daniels> mjg59: i don't believe so.  is intel's download sourceful?
<mjg59> Nope
<mjg59> I'd always assumed that there stuff was just rebuilt source, but it doesn't sound like it
<mjg59> ftp://aiedownload.intel.com/df-support/7485/ENG/readme.txt and http://downloadfinder.intel.com/scripts-df/filter_results.asp?strOSs=39&strTypes=DRV%2CARC&ProductID=922&OSFullName=Linux*&submit=Go%21
<Kamion> ALTERNATIVES="b2m ctags ebrowse emacsclient etags grep-changelog rcs-checkin "
<Kamion>   for i in `echo ${ALTERNATIVES} | grep -v emacs`
<daniels> LICENSE. You may copy the Software onto a single computer for 
<daniels> your personal, noncommercial use, and you may make one back-up 
<daniels> copy of the Software, subject to these conditions: 
<Kamion> spot the OBVIOUS ERROR
<daniels> mjg59: dude.
<daniels> Kamion: empty ${ALTERNATIVES}
<Kamion> daniels: nope
<daniels> Kamion: well, it will be after grep has finished with it
<Kamion> daniels: yep :)
<Kamion> obviously was *meant* to remove all the words in $ALTERNATIVES that don't contain 'emacs', but ...
<mjg59> daniels: It's obviously derived from the same code
<daniels> mjg59: i'm not overly keen on chancing it, at any rate
<thom> Kamion: yeah. oops
<mjg59> daniels: Oh, hang on - Xorg has the same code
<mjg59> Man. Now I need Xorg.
<daniels> mjg59: (note that the i915 stuff was done by Tungsten, on contract to Intel, so Intel could get a licence)
<daniels> mjg59: bahbahbah
<mjg59> New in 6.8.0
<daniels> yeah, the i915 merge was done about 3 months ago, maybe 4
<daniels> obviously it has phat i8xx features as well
<daniels> hey, this could be a good thing for me, too
<sabdfl> mjg59: if you want it you must have it! (in hoary)
* daniels ramps it twenty spots up his priority list.
<daniels> sabdfl: dude, Hoary will clean my teeth and make my coffee
<sabdfl> phew, that's a relief. not the coffee.
<mjg59> Haha
* mjg59 discovers that the secret to mad phat support is to get all the developers to own identical hardware to you
<thom> daniels: does it fix the crackful i8xx crash that we were seeing with xresprobe? :P
<daniels> thom: you think this laptop's seen Xorg?
<daniels> mjg59: (and mark)
<daniels> sabdfl: heh :)
* Kamion notes idly that we're releasing Array CD 1 in four days
<Kamion> according to HoaryHedgehog/ReleaseSchedule
<daniels> Kamion: ...
<daniels> Kamion: isn't hoary ... empty?
<thom> Kamion: yeah, i have the sneaking suspicion that might slip
<Kamion> I suppose this might depend slightly on hoary existing
<daniels> Kamion: hey man, the suite's there, don't knock it
<thom> hrm. i really should buy a copy of Hackers and Painters
<daniels> i could upload X to it with the change to make it not write a log message every time the screensaver comes on if you wanted it ;)
<mjg59> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5130553701&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT - 100 AU$?
<mjg59> BONG.
<mjg59> (Not that I'm not tempted anyway)
<daniels> mjg59: but I am.  bastard.
<mjg59> Oh, I'm massively tempted
<mjg59> I've got an Amiga Unix machine
<mjg59> But I'm using dodgily obtained install media that's not entirely up to date (as much as any software that was killed in 1992 can ever be up to date, but still)
<daniels> $30 postage?
<mjg59> From New Zealand
<daniels> still
<daniels> ha ha.
<daniels> gcc ICEd during the kernel compile anyway
<daniels> oh man.
<daniels> <3 gcc
<mjg59>  gcc
<daniels> xn--d0ha04i gcc
<mjg59> Haha
<daniels> (my setup is not utf-8-compliant, because screen hates me)
<mjg59> I was bored enough yesterday that I wrote an xchat script so my quotes are automatically made pretty
<daniels> do you want to package X.Org instead? :P
<mjg59> No
<daniels> oh my god.
<mjg59> Hahahahaha
* Kamion installs idn so he can decode daniels' punycode
<mjg59> My christ, what have I started?
<Kamion> uh. *was* that punycode?
<Kamion> ah, idn -u manages it
<Kinnison> Morning
<Kinnison> Kamion coerced me into joining here.
<daniels> about time
* Kinnison has said that he'll join the desktop team if (and only if) colin writes lucille
<daniels> writing Lucille would be pretty rad
<Kinnison> fsvo. rad
<Kinnison> :-)
<daniels> heh
<|trey|> What is Lucille?
<|trey|> (link?)
<Kinnison> Never mind
<|trey|> :(
<lifeless> Kinnison: see the bug in cscvs native protocol ?
<sabdfl> |trey|: lucille is the tool we are writing that will let us publish ubuntu packages more effectively
<|trey|> hmm  :)
<sabdfl> i don't think Kinnison was talking to you with the "never mind"
<sabdfl> crosstalk :-)
* |trey| points at the last section of the Topic before RC bugs  :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:thom] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 9 RC bugs to go
* Kamion tries to clean up his last-minute hacks on the cdimage machine
<Kamion> thom: could I have gpg on little, please? signed archives and all that ...
<thom> done
<Kamion> ta
<thom> interestingly, while there were way more torrented downloads of PPC for the preview, amd64 is about double for the RC
<azeem> so this means amd64 users reinstall each time they download a new iso
<elmo> duh.. do we want the daily d-i images to still go in?
<elmo> I guess so, but we should add "disable warty daily d-i build" to the final's release TODO list
<Kamion> elmo: right
<Kamion> probably won't need it between now and release, but I haven't quite got a feel for what mdz is going to want me to change
<sabdfl> i suspect it just means that someone in the amd64 community pointed out the rc
<Mithrandir> amd64 people are more likely to be early adopters as well, as it's a fairly new architecture, so you'll get tinkerers who, well, tinker with their machines
<sabdfl> pr0n lovers
<Mithrandir> yeah, and the amd64 is so pr0n loving and heard about the artwork, so...
<Mithrandir> ;P
<sabdfl> anybody know when we can expect to see gfx cards that do >8bit per channel?
<Mithrandir> so you could get true truecolor?
<sabdfl> isn't truecolor 8bits per rg and b?
<sabdfl> we really need more
<Mithrandir> you have 32 bits as well, since most computers are faster at working with 32 bit increments than 24 bits.
<sabdfl> apparently the film industry uses specialised monitors and gfx cards that do 16 bit depth per channel
<Mithrandir> ok
<sabdfl> a hoary question...
<Mithrandir> personally, I don't need more, but then, I'm not making movies. :)
<sabdfl> could we bring the machine up sanely without networking?
<sabdfl> and have services discover networks as they are brought up?
<sabdfl> the pause during dhcp is... irritating
<thom> sabdfl: that is how NetworkManager (and by extension, fedora core 3) works
<Mithrandir> problem with ifplugd (or an equivalent) is broken hardware.
<sabdfl> is this something we could aim for with hoary?
<Mithrandir> oh, you mean just running the dhcp client in the background?
<sabdfl> together with dependency-based init?
<thom> sabdfl: networkmanager is a release goal
<thom> so yeah, we'll be looking at it
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: i think that runs the risk that a service like apache comes up before dhcp has bound to an address
<sabdfl> thom: great, thanks
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: doesn't matter if it listens to 0.0.0.0
<thom> dependency based init would be nice too
<sabdfl> Mithrandir: or 127.0.0.1 for that matter
<Mithrandir> sabdfl: for 127.0.0.1 it matters, since then it only listens on loopback, but if you listen on 0.0.0.0, it'll automatically listen on newly created interfaces.
<sivang> is there anyway we could make the wallpaper be more bright? I wanna see the models better .. :)
<sivang> pitti : any more LUMUX troubleshooting we can do to make it work?
<sivang> *LUMIX
<pitti> sivang: If it works on your sid kernel, then you could file the information as a bug against the Ubuntu kernel
<sivang> pitti : ok, no probe.
<lamont> F S UID        PID  PPID  C PRI  NI ADDR SZ WCHAN  STIME TTY          TIME CMD
<lamont> 0 D lamont     644     1  0  76   0 -   629 mempoo 00:05 ?        00:00:02 growi
<lamont> hrmpf
<lamont> is 6 hours a long time to be blocked on mempool?
<amu> g'day 
<lamont> g'day amu
<lamont> I think I get to reboot..
<fabbione> hey amu
<thom> seb128: how do i convince gnome that i have french installed?
<thom> i've reconfigured locales to add fr_FR*
<amu> hai lamont, fabbione
<seb128> thom: what are you trying to do ?
<seb128> thom: start a session in french ? just an app ?
<thom> i want to start a session in french
<thom> well, i don't want to. i need to :-)
<Mithrandir> thom: crazy person.
<lamont> brb
<thom> seb128: if i set the language as french in gdm (running in xnest) gnome tells me that no such language is installed
<thom> Language fr_FR does not exist, using System default
<thom> but it lets me choose it in gdm
<seb128> thom: dpkg-reconfigure locales and select fr_FR@euro or fr_FR.UTF-8 ?
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> sendak.freenode.net
<pitti> Guys, why do you continuously disappear and appear again?
<Mithrandir> 14:57 -!- Netsplit burroughs.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: rabidbt
<Mithrandir> 14:57 -!- Netsplit burroughs.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: pitti, 
<Mithrandir> netsplits.
<thom> freenode sucks, film at 11
<pitti> oh, scary
<pitti> ah, from your POV rabidbt and pitti disappeared?
<seb128> thom: so, I was saying ... you have the fr_FR@euro locale generated with dpkg-reconfigure locales ?
<thom> yep
<thom> i generated all the fr_FR locales after it didn't work the first time
<Mithrandir> pitti: yes, and a fair number more.
<thom> and all of them give the same error
<thom> brand new user, too
<Kamion> pitti: IRC is client <-> server (<-> server)* <-> client
<Kamion> pitti: if one of the links in the middle fails, you get netsplits.
<pitti> Kamion: thanks for that explanation!
<Mithrandir> yeah, and the IRC servers are organized in a tree, so you can have small splits if just a server splits off, or huge splits if the root loses some of its links.
<thom> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2294 please review patch :-)
<Mithrandir> thom: use if [ "$results" ]  rather than if [ ! -z ...
<Mithrandir> or -n if you must
<thom> want to change as little as possible
<Mithrandir> and decide on [ ]  or test, not both. :)
<thom> yeah
<thom> i'll clean up post warty
<thom> but i want that patch in warty
<Mithrandir> looks good to me
* Mithrandir grabs his "APPROVED" stamp and stamps thom, err, the patch.
<thom> heh
<thom> seb128: note that i did this post install, does gnome do anything locale related at install time that i'd need to kick?
<seb128> no
<seb128> I've already added some locales to reproduce bugs
<seb128> just dpkg-reconfigure, pick the locale
<seb128> and then select it in the gdm menu
<thom> ok, it could be an x nest
<thom> issue
* thom logs out fully
<thom> brb
<thom> right
<rburton> strange that reportbug sends mail to ubuntu-users
<thom> as it turns out, gnome can't detect languages until you restart gdm entirely. ho-hum
<thom> rburton: nothing else we can really do with it
<rburton> i guess not
<thom> anyone would think that we didn't have a bugzilla hacker employed to write us an xml-rpc version, but anyway
<rburton> hehe
<thom> seb128: OOI, if you install mozilla-firefox-locale-fr, does it give you a french firefox from the menu entry?
<thom> i'm trying to reproduce #2359
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:thom] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 10 RC bugs to go
<seb128> thom: lemme test, I use epiphany
<thom> thanks
<thom> and yes, i know :-)
<seb128> with firefox 0.99+1.0PR.1+revertedto0.9.3-0ubuntu1 that's ok
<seb128> I'm upgrading it to see if that's still ok with the current version
<seb128> thom: yes, works fine with the current version too
<seb128> thom: do you have the problem on your box ?
<thom> nope
<rburton> if i wanted to install ubuntu on a machine with a cd drive and can't be arsed with netboots, is there an easy way?
<rburton> i.e. a floppy bootstrap
<Kamion> sorry, CD and netboot are all we do at the moment; USB will probably happen shortly after warty, too
<Kamion> dunno about floppies yet, they're quite a pain to support well
<rburton> k
<daniels> Mithrandir: [X]  SATISFACTORY [ ]  UNSATISFACTORY
<rburton> Kamion: any quick guides on netboot? not done that before...
<rburton> or would it be quicker to find a cd-rom drive :)
<Kamion> rburton: there's a pxeboot.tar.gz which is supposed to set it all up in one shot for you; never actually tried it myself, I must admit
<rburton> Kamion: where is that file?
<Kamion> rburton: /dists/warty/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/ on the mirror of your choice
<amu> new iso mirror with a 1,7TByte connection http://source.rfc822.org/pub/mirror/releases.ubuntu.com/ 
<Kamion> amu: could you put that on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Archive?
<rburton> Kamion: thanks
<amu> Kamion: yap
<rburton> daniels: ping?
<thom> the pxeboot works great
<thom> just follow the steps on the debian wiki 
<rburton> ah debian wiki
<rburton> good plan
<thom> rburton: i installed my X40 that way ;-)
<rburton> wiki.debian.net, right? 
<thom> yeah
* rburton prods web server
<Keybuk> you pretty much untar pxeboot.tar.gz in your tftproot
<thom> yeah, it just useful to know the runes for the dhcp setup
<Kamion> it's called netboot.tar.gz in Debian now I think
<Keybuk> then stick 'next-server ip-of-tftp-server;' and 'filename "pxelinux.0";' in the dhcp host bit for the machine you want to boot
<rburton> righto
<rburton> so its a dhcpd + tftpd thing
<Keybuk> yup
<rburton> cheers
<Keybuk> host elite_wired {
<Keybuk>         hardware ethernet 00:b0:d0:a4:40:9a;
<Keybuk>         fixed-address elite.netsplit.com;
<Keybuk>         next-server descent.netsplit.com;
<Keybuk>         filename "pxelinux.0";
<Keybuk> }
<rburton> Keybuk: cheers
<Keybuk> assuming you don't already have dhcp setup, you'll probably need a subnet { } gubbins as well
<rburton> we've got dhcp already
<daniels> heh, whoops
<daniels> almost as bad as rebooting the wrong machine -- was logged into my desktop upstairs (sitting on my laptop at the lounge), it's 12:30, and accidentally put Aphex Twin on at earsplitting volume
<daniels> took me a second to notice because it was normal volume for my earphones
<daniels> kinda twigged when I could feel the bass vibrations though :P
<bob2> see, I bet your family didn't appreciate the funny side of being woke up to screams of "I WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANT YOUR SOUL"
<daniels> 'how to win friends and impress your neighbours'
<daniels> bob2: luckily it was Girl/Boy Song, not o/~ i would like some milk from the milkman's wife's tits
<rburton> daniels: "man, these headphones *rock*"
<daniels> rburton: heh
<daniels> 'GREAT SOUND!'
<bob2> ah
<bob2> daniels: the milkman's wife is totally on the top of his...
* sivang away
<daniels> bob2: HAHA
<daniels> that adds a whole new perspective to that whole new film
<bob2> I'm still emotionally scarred by it
<Keybuk> ya know, I've just realised -- our desktop-icon-less desktop is perfect
<Keybuk> you can click on it and type "captain" without any fiddling
<Kamion> captain?
<bob2> Kamion: just do it
<sabdfl>  captain?
<daniels> doesn't it give you an easter egg about campd being lonely?
<bob2> daniels: u suck
<daniels> yeah
<Kamion> uh, that would require me to go upstairs :)
<sabdfl> oh dear
<sabdfl> how many calls does he get?
<Keybuk> a few :)
<daniels> yeah
<daniels> luckily he's a relatively good-humoured guy
<sabdfl> don't you dare
<daniels> even if he has thrown his laptop through a wall once
<Keybuk> sabdfl: Applications -> Run Application ... "free the fish" is slightly less amusing
<daniels> oh dear, it's wanda
<Keybuk> though it gets *really* annoying after a while
<daniels> if you click on it it goes the hell away
<daniels> mercifully
<Keybuk> daniels: and comes back later
<Keybuk> you have to kill gnome-panel to stop it
<bob2> dude
<daniels> SWEET MOTHER OF GOD
<bob2> 6 days out from release and now you have fish on EVERYONE'S DESKTOP
<sabdfl> arrgh!
<sabdfl> make it go away!
<daniels> if that came back at the wrong moment, I would seriously put an FUCK OFF FISH axe through my crt
<Keybuk> sabdfl: Applications -> Run Application ... "killall gnome-panel" :)
<Keybuk> daniels: it *used* to be on all the time, in GNOME 1.4 era; but would only appear at *really* rare times
<daniels> it's only come back once and it's even more infurating than the typing monitor spawning at the exact wrong moment
<daniels> Keybuk: so much ARGH bong
<Keybuk> one of those random times was while Nat was doing a big presentation
* daniels executes his panel.
<daniels> Keybuk: copped it
<daniels> Keybuk: hey, btw -- new deb up
<daniels> 'and for my next trick, I'll actually swap the load order!'
<Keybuk> daniels: you learned to use vi this time?
<daniels> Keybuk: i blame a mixture of being distracted by a visitor, the X40's keyboard, and, um, RSI
<Keybuk> RSI ... not JD ?
<daniels> or something
<daniels> ?
<Keybuk> Jack Daniels
<daniels> ...
<daniels> so far you've connected repetitive strain injury, a UK Debian developer, and some really bad whisky
<daniels> i just finished the bottle of Red Eye -- it hasn't kicked in, so make the connection for me
<Keybuk> daniels: now I just have to link them to the drawing room and I WIN!!!
<daniels> Keybuk: bah, rubbishing me in multiple media
<daniels> i have to look stupid on IRC, the lists, and Bugzilla :P
<Keybuk> you do exceptionally well at it, I must say :o)
<Keybuk> though that new initrd-tools is much better
<daniels> thankyou dear
<daniels> nice to know I'm appreciated for my talents (specifically, court jester)
<Keybuk> hey, that's my job!
* bob2 is happy to hand that mantle over to daniels 
<rburton> a double-act!
<daniels> bob2: no, you're just the sideshow
<daniels> duh.
<daniels> i'm the main attraction :)
<daniels> hm, having a NEEDINFOer would be nice
<daniels> e.g. I NEEDINFO from this person, so it shows on their list also
<daniels> guilt-tripping Keybuk from afar
<bob2> Dr Daniel and his Amazingly Astounding X Packages.
<Keybuk> daniels: hrm?
<daniels> Keybuk: you need to test 2341, duh :)
<Keybuk> daniels: just have, fans are on
<daniels> bob2: Marvel as be breaks mdz's machine!  Be astounded as he does yet another bloody XKB symlink!  Gasp as mdz looks at him threateningly!
<Keybuk> well, three of them are on
<daniels> Keybuk: phat
<daniels> three? that's halfway to a Hoverbook :)
<thom> 15:32 < iDunno> thom: who's responsible for the 'artwork' for gdm and the gnome startup?
<thom> 15:36 < Dave> erm
<thom> *sigh*
<thom> 15:36 < thom> da boss
<thom> 15:37 < Dave> thom: its horrid
<daniels> daniels@brenna:~/canonical/initrd-tools% ls /proc/acpi/fan
<daniels> daniels@brenna:~/canonical/initrd-tools% 
<bob2> your x40 is called brenna?
<daniels> although there's definitely one going; I just put my ear up to it and it blew a crapload of air into my ear.  go figure.
<thom> the x40's fan is hardware controlled afaik, not acpi controlled
<daniels> bob2: brenna is tycho's girlfriend.  i've been through tycho (fooishbar.org), gabe (fd.o), twisp (pda), catsby (old laptop ... maybe I'll change to catsby when I reinstall tonight), brenna (x40), kara (unused -- gabe's wife), div (a Myth box I installed for a mate)
<Keybuk> thom: that kinda sucks
<daniels> oh, and I called the laptop I had for LCA fruitfucker2000
* Keybuk was playing the other day with having different trip_points for battery and AC
<daniels> Keybuk: not really; it just blows out the side anyway
<daniels> Keybuk: so it's not like the OmniBook, where it FROZE YOUR FRIGGING LEG
<Kamion> has anyone tested lamont's live CD, then?
* daniels took to having a small script to just disable it every five seconds, as its only use was to make your right leg so cold it got really, really sore.
<Keybuk> daniels: yeah, but fans use power, so it's nice to be able to control them yourself
<daniels> Keybuk: ah, I don't worry about power consumption, you see
<Keybuk> for FAN in /proc/acpi/fan/*; do echo 0 > $FAN; done ... cold leg
<Keybuk> for FAN in /proc/acpi/fan/*; do echo 3 > $FAN; done ... cold leg
<Keybuk> uh, that second should be warm leg :p
<daniels> yeah
<bob2> daniels: ahhhh
<daniels> but my left leg was always boiling (sometimes to the point of sweating profusely) whatever I did
<bob2> I'm scared my ibook will set fire to my desk in the summer
<daniels> the fan blew straight on to my right leg (the idea was to have it elevated, and run under the laptop to ventilate the left side), so it didn't actually cool the left side.  at all.
<bob2> hammering the disk makes it too hot to have on your lap
<thom> Keybuk: given that the x40 appears to have a single fan and the hardware appears to get it right, i'm not too fussed
<Kamion> bob2: same with a powerbook
<daniels> the x40 also very, very rarely gets hot
<Kamion> in winter you can compile kernels to keep yourself warm
<daniels> the only time I've ever actually noticed it -- and I wasn't actually uncomfortable -- was after it had been building X on AC power (thus un-SpeedStepped) for a couple of hours
<daniels> Kamion: ever owned an ia64? ;)
<Kamion> nope :)
<bob2> Kamion: hehe, the powersupply is good for chilly toes
<Kamion> the CD drive generates a fair bit of heat, actually
<Kamion> taking the CD out is generally useful
<daniels> bob2: yeah, I used to love that about the OmniBook
<daniels> bob2: until one day where I burnt the underside of my toes and lost some skin
<daniels> after that, I'd just go find some socks
<daniels> ARSE
<Kamion> socks for your arse?
<bob2> daniels is "unique".
<daniels> Kamion: just realised that as my music is all track%d.cdda.ogg when ripped now, not %d-audiotrack.ogg, my small tracknumber script (a horrible sed hack) has been putting on track numbers of 'tr' for a couple of CDs
<daniels> and there are no good tag editors
<daniels> the only one I could find was catbus or something, and it's *abysmal*.
<daniels> alias tn='for i in *.ogg; do echo TRACKNUMBER=`echo $i | sed -e "s/^\(..\).*$/\1/; s/^0//;"` | vorbiscomment -a $i; done'
<rburton> daniels: the new musicbrainz library has an accoustic fingerprint tagger
<rburton> so in theory it will tag without asking you
<pitti> daniels: easytag is not bad IMHO
<pitti> daniels: I have used it for quite a while
<daniels> rburton: nice
<pitti> daniels: it can rename files after tags, or the other way round; quite flexible
<daniels> rburton: the only problem I have with SJ is that (aside from never having seen musicbrainz support ever activate) is that I rip a lot of compilations
<daniels> and for that I want %d - Artist Name - Track Name.ogg, whereas I just want %d - Track Name.ogg for single-artist stuff
<daniels> so I have my own Python script that DTRT according to a very small file I write
<rburton> daniels: hrm
<daniels> rburton: that and quality support for oggenc :P
<rburton> i want to say "use a decent media player" so you don't see the filenames
<rburton> daniels: sj in cvs has profile support
<rburton> interesting problem though
<daniels> rburton: oh?
<daniels> rburton: yeah, I keep meaning to, but mainly because of the compilation issue, end up back at the command line
<daniels> rburton: rhythmbox isn't quite usable on 1024 -- just not enough screen real estate.  i use it on 1600 tho.
<rburton> daniels: tried muine?
<daniels> rburton: yeah, rather liked it, but just didn't scale
<rburton> i guess the album view doesn't work too well with a huge album list
<bob2> hm, I kept meaning to true muine
<rburton> its not bad
<bob2> I'll just wait until I have enough time to write my twisted music playing thing
<daniels> rburton: although I did like how it was pretty smart about compilations
<daniels> ok, can other people please try the new initrd-tools to ensure they get no regressions?
<daniels> i'll be trying it here when I reinstall, but just to make sure
<daniels> http://ubuntuforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=442
<daniels> however that will be badly skewed by the (purely anecdotally observed) connection between Gentoo users and web forums
<bob2> hm, interesting
<bob2> isn't Mepis Yet Another Sid Snapshot LiveCD Thingy?
<daniels> probably
<bob2> hmmm
<azeem> they tend to be non-free with their additions though, AFAIK
<daniels> mdz: permission to upload initrd-tools?  only change is the reversal of fan/thermal load order.
<bob2> lamont: thanks for getting kismet going
<daniels> azeem: bong :\
<lamont> bob2: np.  amd64 is still missing, though.
<rburton> cdrdao isn't part of the base install?
* bob2 watches daniels get trolled about X
<bob2> lamont: hah, I'll bitch again if/when I justify one of them :)
<lamont> bob2: when you do bitch, send me the patch to snacc to make it run on 64-bit, and I'll be happy. :-)
<lamont> then again, there might already be a patch for that.  hrm.
<bob2> heheh
<Kamion> arse, gtk themes are compiled against gtk-x11 etc.
<lamont> what does it mean when growisofs goes into an uninteruptible sleep on 'mempoo' and never comes back, I wonder.
<lamont> other than 'time to finish the upgrade to RC'...
<lamont> Kamion: how did you invoke alextreme yesterday? email?
<Kamion> lamont: yes
<Kamion> lamont: took an hour or two IIRC
<lamont> ok.  I'll do that after I finish rebooting..
<daniels> oh man. people seem to actually own ISA sound cards.
<elmo> blink
<elmo> an upgrade, just brought up a nautlius window
<daniels> elmo: hal restarted.  thought we fixed that bug.
<daniels> elmo: does sudo /etc/init.d/dbus-1 restart, trigger it?
<Kamion> gah. why can't I compile gtk with multiple gdk frontends at once, eh?
<Keybuk> daniels: yeah, dbus-1 restart triggers it here
<Keybuk> I just got two spanking new windows
<daniels> man, if there was ever an example of 'don't put off till tomorrow what you can rewrite today', it's apt-cacher.  sweet jesus.
<daniels> hack city.
<daniels> Keybuk: bah.  what version of hal?
<Keybuk> 0.2.98-1ubuntu8
<Keybuk> 0.22-1ubuntu2 of dbus-1
<daniels> dbus-1's version is unimportant, it's just that it runs hal from event.d :)
<Keybuk> daniels: if you do dbus-1 restart on your machine, do you get a / window ?
<daniels> Keybuk: not a / window, no
<daniels> don't think so
<daniels> doesn't happen for me with ubuntu8
<pitti> This was not a hal bug, but a g-v-m one
<Keybuk> it only happens for me once, the first time
<daniels> pitti: oh?
<daniels> pitti: oh right, yeah
* daniels takes another hit.
<daniels> Keybuk: g-v-m version?
<pitti> https://bugzilla.ubuntulinux.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2169
<daniels> gah, apparently 'cleaning up' in this house means 'move Daniel's thumbdrive somewhere he can't find it'; that's like the fourth time this week
<Keybuk> 1.0.2-0ubuntu5 of g-v-m
<daniels> bong
<daniels> oh
<daniels> you've been running your session for a while :)
<pitti> daniels, Keybuk: actually this should be fixed in ubuntu5
<daniels> killall gnome-volume-manager && gnome-volume-manager &|
<pitti> does it still occur?
<Keybuk> pitti: well, it just occured now
<pitti> Keybuk: damn, g-v-m now should know about device states...
<daniels> Keybuk: yes, but is the *running* g-v-m (i.e. the one started when your session was) ubuntu5?
<Keybuk> daniels: just checking that now
<Keybuk> I'm trying to remember how to get the exact start time of a process
<daniels> 09:15 < daniels> killall gnome-volume-manager && gnome-volume-manager &|
<daniels> unless you're really attached to your current g-v-m instance :P
<pitti> one is as good as the other
<Keybuk> it looks to me like I'm running ubuntu5 now
<Keybuk> descent scott% killall gnome-volume-manager && gnome-volume-manager &|
<Keybuk> descent scott% umount: only root can unmount /dev/hda1 from /boot
<Keybuk> umount: only root can unmount /dev/hda3 from /
<Keybuk> after killing, it seems ok, I can restart dbus *shrug*
<daniels> right, so it *is* fixed
<daniels> elmo: does that work for you too?
<Keybuk> (and this, ladies and gentlemen, is why Windows makes you reboot after any install :p)
<daniels> heh
* Keybuk tries that to see whether it happens again
<elmo> daniels: restarting dbus doesn't make it happen again for me
<daniels> elmo: phat, thanks
<elmo> no I mean even without the killal stuff :)
<daniels> oh
<daniels> heh, wack
<Keybuk> yeah, seems ok now
<Keybuk> I love how with the same number of processes running, the free memory is much higher after a reboot
<Keybuk> and the free disk space has gone up as well, shows this thing really did need a reboot <g>
<daniels> heh
<Keybuk> mdz, seb128: did we get gnome-applets 2.8.1 or 2.8.1.1 into Ubuntu?
<Keybuk> the latter looks like it fixes a pretty silly crash
<lamont> so gnome-background-proerties should do something after it's windo is created, right?  (like add buttons, fill in the big white box I see, etc...)
<lamont> much happier when root runs it...
<seb128> Keybuk: 2.8.1
<seb128> Keybuk: 2.8.1.1 has been released yesterday
<Keybuk>  * Fix possible crasher in gweather preferences (Mark McLoughlin)
<Keybuk>  * Fix error in Italian translation that caused gweather to not parse the location list (Kjarten Maraas)
<Keybuk> to me that seems reasonable to let in *shrug*  up to mdz though
<seb128> I've 2 other important fixes too, but mdz said it's too late for changes yesterday
<lamont> post-RC is not the time to introduce fixes for non-RC bugs...
<seb128> a fix for gok which just crashes when you run it
<seb128> and a fix for a data corruption with the ftp method (and perhaps the http one too) in nautilus
<Keybuk> do we want italians to be able to use gweather? :p
<seb128> oh, that's probably the error that I've fixed in 2.8.1-0ubuntu2 
<seb128> a <<...> instead <...> breaking the Locations.xml
<seb128> it was breaking the locations for everybody
<Keybuk> ah ok, so we got that in then
<mdz> morning
<daniels> mdz: 'morning.  how was your sleep?
<mdz> delicious
<pitti> Hi mdz!
<daniels> mdz: looks like you finally got some proper sleep
<mdz> Mithrandir: still here?
<thom> mdz: morning 
* mdz stretches and yawns
<mdz> is everyone happy with gzip?
<mdz> I'd like to get that uploaded
<thom> mdz: it seems to be working fine for me
<mdz> I beat on it fairly hard last night with apt and apt-extracttemplates
<mdz> and Mithrandir confirmed it fixed his bug
<daniels> mdz: it's not broken anything for me on up i386
<mdz> uploaded
<daniels> mdz: permission to upload initrd-tools to fix 2341?
<daniels> mdz: (there's now an interdiff on p.u.c/~daniels/thermal-fans/source/)
<mdz> daniels: what's this about a kernel ftbfs?
<mdz> diff looks exactly right
<mdz> how much testing has it gotten?
<daniels> mdz: that was me not realising you had to copy 00list-$(debrevision-1) to 00list-$(debrevision)
<daniels> mdz: keybuk says it's OK, so do my own two machines (neither of which have fans, mind)
<mdz> I made the change on my laptop last night
<mdz> the fan module doesn't seem to work now, but I'm not entirely sure whether it worked before either
<Kamion> mdz: there's still some missing branding in the installation manual, specifically the installation howto (which says stuff like "Debian GNU/Linux warty")
<daniels> mdz: ugh, bongtastic
<Kamion> mdz: can I re-upload debian-installer at some point to fix that?
<daniels> can someone with a currently working fan setup (ACPI fan, and working when thermal is loaded before fan) please test the new initrd? download initrd-tools from p.u.c/~daniels/thermal-fans/all/, install it, and run apt-get install --reinstall linux-image-2.6.8.1-3-<flavourofchoice>
<mdz> Kamion: can it be the last d-i upload for Warty?
<Kamion> mdz: probably :-)
<Keybuk> I don't see why it'd break anything.  The installer already loads fan before thermal anyway, and before thom added those modprobes to the initrd the acpid init script loaded them and loads fan before thermal
<thom> mdz: would you agree the fix to laptop-detect is rc, and can i upload it?
<Kamion> I'll do a really good read-through of the installer this weekend
<Kamion> er, installer manual
<daniels> Keybuk: yeah, but um, having testing would be good
<mdz> Kamion: maybe for Hoary we should split out the manual into a separate source packagae so that the doc team can beat on it
<daniels> i'd test it, but the x40 fans are hardware, not acpi
<mdz> daniels: I think the same of T42
<mdz> thom: bug#?
<Kamion> mdz: the reason why it's there in the first place is that katie/wanna-build falls over if you try to upload a package containing only byhand components
<Kamion> (or something similar)
<mdz> Kamion: sounds like a bug :-)
<Kamion> basically it doesn't get autobuilt that way
<mdz> it could build an installation-guide.deb, no?
<daniels> mdz: if /proc/acpi/fan is empty, you have no ACPI fans
<thom> mdz: 2294
<mdz> daniels: correct
<Kamion> mdz: er, it does
<Kamion> mdz: but the manual is arch-specific
<mdz> Kamion: aren't debs not-byhand components?
<Kamion> mdz: yes, that's why one of them is there
<daniels> mdz: by the way, SiS have fucked us.  either we pick a lot of PCI-to-AGP bridges as video cards, or we pick a few video cards as PCI-to-AGP bridges.  the former results in a broken configuration, the latter results in the user having to nominate that they have an SiS card.  guess which one I picked :)
<Kamion> mdz: otherwise it would be just the initrd tarballs, and those need to be autobuilt too
<daniels> mdz: (:0001 is used for TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT CLASSES OF PCI DEVICE)
<mdz> Kamion: ah, gotcha
<mdz> Kamion: I thought you were saying the doc package would be byhand-only, but you meant d-i itself
<Kamion> mdz: right. joeyh wrestled with this a lot a while back; the current situation is the resulting compromise
<mdz> daniels: ok to upload initrd-tools
<Kamion> mdz: surely for a doc team we can simply let them commit to the right bit of arch
<daniels> mdz: thanks
<mdz> Kamion: yes, but we still have to get the stuff uploaded somehow
<tseng> anyone know how i could track down a seemingly random hardlock?
<Kamion> mdz: sure, but d-i gets uploaded regularly anyway for other reasons
<mdz> it would be nice to be able to loosen the reins for doc updates without worrying about all the byhand stuff that d-i involves
<Keybuk> 0000:00:00.0 Class 0600: 1039:0745 (rev 01)
<Keybuk> 0000:00:01.0 Class 0604: 1039:0001
<Keybuk> 0000:00:02.0 Class 0601: 1039:0018
<mdz> tseng: ctrl+scrollock
<Kamion> mdz: you can't make changes to initrd stuff without new d-i builds
<mdz> or sysrq+t
<Kamion> mdz: I don't really think this is a problem
<Kamion> anyway, have to go now :)
<Keybuk> ^ the SiS bridge here has an 0600 class
<daniels> Keybuk: yes, but 1039:0001 is ambiguous -- it is both a video card, and a PCI-to-AGP bridge
<mdz> daniels: ah, so that was a local kernel build that was breaking for you
<mdz> *PHEW*
<Keybuk> daniels: yeah, so check the class
<daniels> for some reason, discover does totally bong matching (it forces the types of what it detected and what's in the file to equality if the PCI ID is the same, so no way to specify two classes, one ID), and I do *not* want to touch that code.  i tried a couple of fixes and it broke stuff.  so I just let it go, and both :0001 sis video users can deal.
<daniels> mdz: yeah, not an RC bug
<daniels> speaking of RC bugs
<Keybuk> discover is broken
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:daniels] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 9 RC bugs to go
<daniels> Keybuk: no, really?!?
<Keybuk> vendors are allowed to allocate the same id to two devices, provided they have different major classes, if I recall PCI correctly
<daniels> Keybuk: that's crap
<daniels> Keybuk: i don't think discover has a bridge class anyway, so lots and lots of stuff would break.  infeasible to change it.
<daniels> we'd just screw up more corner cases than we'd fix
<daniels> mdz: comments on #2373?  i think it can be closed out-of-hand.
<Keybuk> #define PCI_CLASS_BRIDGE_PCI            0x0604
<Keybuk> it's reasonably clear what that device is :-)
<daniels> Keybuk: yeah, but discover doesn't map this sanely to the 'bridge' class in pci.lst anyway
<daniels> and half of them are down as unknown
<daniels> tightening matching would break us horribly
<Keybuk> discover doesn't even use the right list files, it has its own
<daniels> assume we're talking about discover1 here
<mdz> thom: I'm OK with uploading the fix in #2294
<mdz> thom: oh, wait
<mdz> thom: that doesn't actually break any maintainer scripts, does it?
<mdz> it just makes them think it's not a laptop
<Keybuk> modules.pcimap has a specific 0600 class-match for sis-agp
<thom> mdz: yes
<mdz> thom: send me a deb?
<mdz> I'm in ultra-conservative asshole mode for Warty
<thom> sure
<thom> mdz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~thom/laptop-detect_0.9_amd64.deb
<mdz> ew, it's arch-any?
<thom> mdz: has to be, to get the dmidecode dependencies right :(
<mdz> thom: has someone tested it on powerpc?
<thom> mdz: dmidecode? upstream say no way, dunno if anyone has looked at making it work
<mdz> thom: I mean laptop-detect
<thom> laptop-detect works fine on ppc
<mdz> the patched version?
<thom> the current patch? don't know
<thom> if adding quotes to a variable breaks it, i'll be screamingly terrified
<daniels> if you shang us a source package, I'll test it on i386, though I presume your X40 has also felt the love
<mdz> thom: i know, it's incredibly trivial and obviously correct
<mdz> but my eyes lie to me sometimes
<mdz> I don't think this G4 desktop has /proc/pmu
<daniels> mdz: er, IIRC it should
<thom> it ought to
<mdz> ok, can do then
<mdz> mdz@max:~ $ laptop-detect
<mdz> mdz@max:~ $ echo $?
<mdz> 1
<daniels> mdz: sudo?
<mdz> same
<daniels> oh, nevermind.
<daniels> exit 1 is success in thom's world ;)
<mdz> mdz@max:~ $ grep Bat !$
<mdz> grep Bat /proc/pmu/info
<mdz> Battery count          : 0
<mdz> thom: ok, fire away
<thom> daniels: no. exit 1 is failure, you freak
<thom> it's called laptop-detect, not desktop-detecty
<daniels> thom: ber
* lamont screams at ubuntu-sounds
<daniels> mdz: if I made thinkpad-x40-support mangle /boot/grub/menu.lst to ensure kopt contained acpi_sleep=s3_bios, would I hear the distant sound of baby jesus weeping?
<daniels> mdz: (this is just going to be a p.u.c package with some acpi scripts)
<lamont> if you have a sound-using app, and you click a button, it fails to open the sound device, since UBUNTU F(^%)%^G SOUNDS grabbed it to make a cute noise.
<mdz> daniels: that would be evil
<daniels> mdz: suckful
<mdz> lamont: open gstreamer-properties, set it to esdsink
<mdz> another of those settings upgrade bugs
<mdz> esdsink should be the default on new installs
<lamont> I just told the desktop to stop issuing sounds on events.
<mdz> equally valid
<lamont> which is what I had before the last upgrade magically enabled it.
<mdz> now that one was correct
<mdz> errr
<mdz> seb128: ping?
<mdz> gstreamer-properties is still defaulting to OSS(!)
* lamont goes to stare at the livecd.
<daniels> thom: hm, speaking of acpi-support a blueskyism would be to have acpi-support-fallthrough or something with /etc/acpi/*
<daniels> thom: so acpi-support-x40 could c/r/p it, and ditto for other setups if people want to make packages
<thom> yeah
<daniels> mjg59: gplv2, or v2+?
<daniels> mjg59: (your x40 acpi scripts)
<thom> daniels: Hoary :-)
* thom is ignoring all the firefox bugs until post warty, they're all trivial, and all likely fixed in 1.0
<thom> upstream have finally assigned someone to fix the crasher
<daniels> thom: er yeah, I don't quite think we'll slip such a change through mdz for warty ;)
<mdz> thom: hopefully 1.0 will arrive in time for the hoary freeze
<lamont> tar tvzf boot/miniroot.gz 
<lamont> lamont@mix:/media/cdrom0 $ 
<lamont> hrm.. I think we might havea a winner
<thom> mdz: it should be, yeah
<mdz> lamont: does it have the latest portmap on it?
<thom> mdz: december was the last estimate i saw
<mdz> thom: yeah, the last estimate we saw since the one that said 'september'
<thom> *g*
<lamont> mdz: that was just looking at the CD that doesn't boot, trying to figure out what it's _supposed_ to look like
<mdz> lamont: I think miniroot is a filesystem, not a tar
<lamont> mdz: why, so it is.
<daniels> mjg59: could I please get a copy of laptop-mode.sh (is it just /etc/init.d/laptop-mode?) and laptop.sh?
<thom> daniels: uh, apt-get install laptop-mode
<mdz> pitti: It's hard to say no to #2177
<thom> daniels: or just which laptop-mode
<mdz> pitti: can you make packages available for testing before upload?
<pitti> mdz: sorry, was away for a moment. Of course
<pitti> mdz: I can put them into my utopia repo
<mdz> pitti: are there other packages in there which are not destined for warty?
<pitti> mdz: if the patch is wrong, the worst thing is a memory leak
<pitti> mdz: no, currently only hal
<daniels> thom: right, but mjg59 references laptop-mode.sh
<thom> daniels: same thing
<mdz> I don't think it's security-relevant, but it's a big usability problem
<mdz> and the fix is a very simple and very-safe one-liner
<thom> daniels: it's only packaged in ubuntu
<daniels> thom: righto
<pitti> mdz: that's why I begged for approval :-)
<pitti> mdz: up
<mdz> pitti: what's the sources.list entry?
<pitti> mdz: deb-src http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~pitti/utopia/  /
<mdz> (for source packageS)
<pitti> mdz: same for binary
<mdz> Failed to fetch http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~pitti/utopia/gnome-system-tools_1.0.0.orig.tar.gz  404 Not Found
<mdz> lamont: did you get email from alex?
<mdz> lamont: he says he told you the problem was that you need to modprobe loop
<thom> mdz: ooi, when is unstable getting synced for hoary? start of next week?
<lamont> just now
<mdz> thom: I think it should start as soon as warty is out
<daniels> thom: thinkpad-x40-support stuff on p.u.c/~daniels/x40 as a very first crack (it installs OK, seems to work, but it's what I had anyway); if you wouldn't mind giving it a geeze when you've got a sec, that'd be ill
<thom> daniels: sick.
<daniels> thom: phat
<thom> mdz: rightyho. might want to fix the release schedule then :-)
<daniels> 0445, that sounds like new-netinst-o'clock!
<mdz> lamont: can you do a new test build?
* daniels does a last rsync of his homedir before he shoves his /home into ext3.
<lamont> thombot?
<mjg59> daniels: laptop-mode.sh is the one that's in the kernel docs
<lamont> thom: I need loop on macaroni... where does it's kernel come from?
<mjg59> The idea is just to call something that switches it on and off
<Mithrandir> mdz: pong
<mjg59> Oh, and GPL 2, ideally
<thom> lamont: custom
<mdz> Mithrandir: was just going to interrogate you about gzip some more, but i've uploaded it now
* lamont grovels
<Mithrandir> mdz: ok
<daniels> mjg59: is that /usr/sbin/laptop-mode?
<lamont> thom: liveCD's are blocked by lack of loop love.
<daniels> mjg59: ok, I'll fix debian/copyright (right now it's 2+)
<daniels> mjg59: cheers
<mjg59> daniels: Probably, yup
<thom> daniels: yes, laptop-mode ships that shell script as usr/sbin/laptop-mode
<daniels> rockin'
<thom> lamont: gar and other words
<lamont> thom: yeah.  other words for sure.
<lamont> thom: no pressure and all that, but eta?
<elmo> I'll deal with it
<lamont> elmo: thanks. quiescing that buildd
<mdz> lamont: let me know the moment you have an image up that I can test
<lamont> mdz: will do
<daniels> http://www.gnome.org/~calum/blog/gnome.org/2004-10/2004-10-13@1328 -- so much crack
<thom> daniels: that'd rock hard
<lamont> Drop a file on their head to send it to them.
<pitti> mdz: sorry, I did not put the orig.tar.gz there
<daniels> thom: yeah, the good sort of crack.  but crack nonetheless.
<daniels> i find the idea of having jdub's hackergotchi staring out from my panel kind of unnerving :)
<pitti> mdz: try again, please
<mdz> pitti: I already grabbed it from the main archive
<elmo> lamont: done
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:daniels] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 8 RC bugs to go
<mdz> pitti: network-admin sees to work fine
<lamont> mdz: was running about 20 minutes to build a broken CD...
<pitti> mdz: for me, too
<pitti> mdz: I also asked my flatmate to test it
<pitti> mdz: works for him
<mdz> pitti: ok, please upload
<pitti> mdz: it'll be my pleasure :-)
<pitti> mdz: BTW, if we already are at violating the freeze rules :-)
<pitti> mdz: how long do you think should the hal stay in the unofficial repo?
<pitti> mdz: I'm not sure what the optimal balance between early testers and left time to the release is
<pitti> mdz: the more early we throw the package into the official archive, the more time we have to fix it again and also have more testers
<pitti> mdz: OTOH it still should receive one or two days of testing
<seb128> mdz: pong
<mdz> seb128: on a fresh install, I opened gstreamer-properties, and it says OSS
<mdz> seb128: shouldn't it be esd by default?
<seb128> yes, should
<seb128> I'm looking for it
<seb128> thom: ping ?
<thom> seb128: word
<seb128>   * Set default audiosink to "esdsink" (Warty #1349)
<seb128>  -- Thom May <thom@canonical.com>  Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:20:48 +0100
<seb128> 
<seb128> how did you make this change ?
<thom> changed the schema
<seb128> directly ?
<seb128> ie: not patch in debian/patches ?
<thom> changed the schema.in, yeah
<seb128> arg
<seb128> that's it
<thom> ah, sorry
<seb128> I only keep the debian/ dir between versions
<seb128> I should have checked that more carrefully
<seb128> mdz: fixing right now, the change was made directly in the source and has been dropped on the upgrade
<pitti> seb128: btw, uupdate is really nice for such things
<seb128> pitti: yes, but usually I just keep the debian/ dir because all the changes are here on the GNOME packages
<seb128> so I'm sure to not keep crap out of this
<pitti> seb128: I remember packages which did changes which were already fixed upstream directly in the code
<seb128> ?
<lamont> hrm... that's a bit different
<lamont> wrong, but different.
<seb128> pitti: oh yeah, if the change are in the upstream devel tree no point to keep them for the new version
* lamont refuses to believe that 56MB is enough
<daniels> Kamion: ping?
<seb128> pitti: mixing changes in a big .diff.gz makes the work really harder to do
<lamont> Opening input: File too large
<lamont> \
<lamont> GAH!~
<daniels> Kamion: there's a user here who cannot install linux-image-386 off the cd with no network
<daniels> 12:12 <jimi>   linux-386: Depends: linux-image-386 but it is not installable
<daniels> 12:12 <jimi>              Depends: linux-restricted-modules-386 but it is not going to be installed
<daniels> Kamion: (that was from d-i; unfortunately they no longer have the machine in d-i, so can't beat any debugging info out of them)
<daniels> Kamion: can't see off the top of my head why the l-i-386 on the cd is uninstallable
<daniels> Kamion: but it may be that it gets installed when only the network stuff is in the sources.list?
<mdz> fabbione: ping?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:daniels] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 6 (count 'em) RC bugs to go
* Mithrandir is a bit angry at himself for not seeing the acx100_pci problem on amd64 earlier.
<pitti> fabbione: ugh, and all kernel bugs. Poor herbert...
<daniels> pitti: yeah, and all totally wack ACPI bugs
<daniels> #1922 seems to be caused by the acpi.sf.net patchset, of all things :\
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 6 (count 'em) major bugs
<mdz> consider RC = severity>=critical for the remainder of the release
<mdz> elmo: here?
<daniels> mdz: sure
<daniels> mdz: zero RC bugs to go
<mdz> Mithrandir: isn't #2377 a bug you already fixed?
<daniels> Kamion: 12:11 <jimi> W: Couldn't stat source package list file: warty/main Packages 
<daniels>              (/var/lib/apt/lists/_cdrom_dists_warty_main_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory)
<daniels> Kamion: hm, upon further inspection -- that's the CD.
<daniels> Kamion: *wack*.
<Mithrandir> mdz: looks a bit like the one I fixed, but not exactly.
<mdz> Mithrandir: the fact that he says it worked before is suspicious
<Mithrandir> yeah, as I don't think grub has been changed in the last week, has it?
<mdz> Mithrandir: no, please ask any necessary questions that I haven't already asked
<_rene_> mdz: that bibliography bugs is powerpc-specific, yes
<_rene_> mdz: (of OOo), forgot the number..
<mdz> _rene_: 1903?
<Mithrandir> mdz: buy me a couple of 2G sticks and I'll test with my home box? ;P
<_rene_> mdz: yes
<_rene_> mdz: debian bug 216848
<Mithrandir> mdz: there's no way that problem didn't exist on Oct 8th.
<_rene_> and btw, you use GNOME 2.8, right?
<_rene_> have you fixed debian bug 272638?
<mdz> Mithrandir: we don't have time for shipping around hardware; can you debug it with the submitter?
<Mithrandir> mdz: I can try, sure.
* _rene_ is currently doing this
<Mithrandir> mdz: I wasn't serious about it either, though.
<mdz> _rene_: unless the bug is RC or independently reported by an Ubuntu user, probably not
<lamont> so, 1050803 KB doesn't compress so well into a CD image.
* Mithrandir goes to reboot his system to recover the number of ptys
<_rene_> mdz: ok, it imho is a stopper for me. since you can't open files from GNOME without this
<lamont> then again, unmounting proc would help.
<mdz> _rene_: oh, yes, we did fix that
<_rene_> ah, k...
<mdz> _rene_: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=648
<_rene_> mdz: p.d.o/~rene/openoffice.org/sysui-mimetypes.diff...
<_rene_> mdz: made today, where were the patches you promise to give back? ;)
<_rene_> oh, we should call update-desktop-database, too?
<thom> _rene_: yes
<_rene_> just run it? with or without args?
<_rene_> which args?
<_rene_> :)
<_rene_> that script unfortunately is undocumented...
<_rene_> (yes, I know of dh_desktop but that's not yet available in sarge...)
<_rene_> erm, nm
* _rene_ looks in debhelper
<_rene_> ah, ok
<_rene_> mdz: expect a 1.1.2-6 with these and some other patches in the next days
<_rene_> mdz: when are you going to release?
<mdz> _rene_: that bug did not apply to Debian, did it?
<mdz> I thought it was only with GNOME 2.8
<_rene_> yes, but it was reported since $reporter used gnome from experimental
<mdz> _rene_: we release on 10/20; we are only accepting fixes for showstopper bugs and safe trivila fixes
<_rene_> I don't see why it shouldn't be fixed in the deb anyway :)
<seb128> _rene_: what's the problem ?
<mdz> seb128: #648
<seb128> oh ok
<_rene_> mdz: oh, any you probably want the openoffice.org-debian-files I am just preparing..
<seb128> yeah, that's GNOME 2.8 material
<mdz> _rene_: showstopper bugs and safe trivial fixes only
<_rene_> mdz: ah, well, I'll let you decide..
<seb128> mdz: permission to make a gok upload ? The rules were in the wrong order in debian/rules, the schemas is not registred and gok just crashes
<mdz> _rene_: do you have a changelog?
<mdz> seb128: bug#?
<_rene_> not yet but I can tell you :)
<_rene_> - minor typo fix in manpafe (\fb -> \fB)
<mdz> _rene_: we're in an ultra-conservative posture right now
<_rene_> - run setofficelang.bin with -f
<seb128> mdz: #2141, but I've not attached the patch ... I've just changed the cdbs rules in debian/rules to match all the other GNOME packages
<_rene_> that latter fixes the problem that OOo doesn't start after initial setup
<mdz> seb128: can you attach a patch?
<seb128> mdz: ok
<seb128> mdz: done
<mdz> seb128: hmm?  I don't see it
<mdz> wrong bug maybe?
<mdz> oh, you added it as a comment
<mdz> rather than an attachment
<seb128> yes
<mdz> seb128: ok, looks good, go ahead
<seb128> thanks
<mdz> since it doesn't seem to work at all, I don't suppose it could get worse from this :-)
<seb128> yeah :)
<_rene_> mdz: p.d.o/~rene/openoffice.org/oo-d-f.patch <-- 2 lines...
<mdz> _rene_: I haven't seen the problem where oo.o doesn't start after initial setup
<mdz> it seems to work for me
<_rene_> mdz: erm, ignore that comment in the file. *fixes*
<_rene_> mdz: oh?
<_rene_> LANG="C"?
<_rene_> or something like that?
<mdz> _rene_: I do fresh Ubuntu installs on a regular basis, and starting oo.o is one of my test cases
<_rene_> hmm
<mdz> LANG=en_US
<_rene_> I can reproduce this here at will
<_rene_> (with de_DE)
<mdz> _rene_: is there some way I can test, having already setup oo.o?
<mdz> rm -rf .openofice .sversionrc?
<_rene_> yes
<_rene_> export LANG="de_DE@euro" or so
<_rene_> en_US works fine here, too
<_rene_> probably because there is no UI language to change :)
<mdz> confirmed
<mdz> _rene_: what does -f do?
<_rene_> force
<mdz> ah, otherwise it exits nonzero and so oo.o fails to start?
<mdz> (due to the script exiting?)
<mdz> or it changes the way setofficelang works?
<_rene_> mdz: right. it exits 1
<_rene_> mdz: and exits the set -e script :)
<mdz> ok, I think we can take -5+1
<_rene_> s/exits 1/returns 1/
<seb128> mdz: permission to upload gst-plugins0.8 with the schemas back to esdsink ?
<mdz> seb128: yes
<mdz> jdub: please tell me we can lose esd for hoary
<mdz> thom: don't you have an ipw2100?
<thom> mdz: yeah?
<mdz> thom: #2364
<seb128> mdz: #2384 please
<lamont> those with bandwidth: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/live.iso if you would be so kind.
<thom> mdz: my ipw2100 is working great, with the -15 kernel
<mdz> seb128: the patch seems neither trivial nor obviously correct without context; can you explain it to me?
<mdz> thom: please note that on the bug for Herbert
<thom> will do
<mdz> thom: you're not up to -16?
<mdz> not that it should matter
<seb128> mdz: not looked on the details to be honest, I trust alex (the main gnome-vfs/nautilus devel) for this ... but I can look the detail if you want
<mdz> seb128: if warty were released, would you still push this into warty-updates?  that is the kind of criteria we need to have at this time
<thom> mdz: no, i have a patched -15.1 with inotify, -16 doesn't fix anything i care about on the laptop
<thom> all other machines are on 16
<seb128> mdz: yes, that fixes a nasty data corruption during transferts
* lamont taps his foot
<seb128> alex was able to reproduce the bug, tested the fix and commited in 2.8 branch upstream
<seb128> mdz: I'll just check what was the problem and what the fix does to be sure and ping you again
<seb128> can't hurt to double check :)
<lamont> new X?????
<lamont> -6ubuntu24, that is...
<lamont> or maybe I'm just way behind on things..
<lamont> yeah.  I'm way behind.  That was from Monday.
* lamont crawls back into the hole he crawled out of
* Mithrandir crawls into bed.
<_rene_> mdz: uploaded
<_rene_> mdz: take it from incoming in a few mins :)
<_rene_> s/:/: you can/
<mdz> _rene_: we wait for it to be available on ftp.uk.debian.org :-)
<_rene_> mdz: ah, ok :-)
* lamont has to go get the kids from school.  back around 2200 UTC or so.
<lamont> although I may login in town and fetch bits.  dunno.
* daniels attacks another vi mug full of Madagascan Vanilla tea.
<lamont> it'll be a few before I leave actually... brb
<tseng> daniels: please, think of the children!
<daniels> tseng: ?
* tseng hides.
<tseng> daniels: sorry, i thought you were referencing the vim donate to starving kids deal
<tseng> wrong country.
<daniels> heh, no
<tseng> :help iccf
<tseng> may i note that the old logo-only gdm theme isnt even present here anymore?
<tseng> i keep hearing "those people arent the default"
<daniels> d-i really does hate apt-cacher
<mdz> deservedly so
<mdz> it's crap
<mdz> tseng: you're hearing that in the context of the wallpaper
<mdz> the new gdm theme is default
<tseng> i see
* tseng digs around for the Industrial gdm theme =/
<Keybuk> well, that was nice ... something just decided to make my machine down
<lamont> mdz: any news?
<mdz> lamont: ENOSPC
<mdz> lamont: eta 20 minutes
<lamont> ARRGH!
<Keybuk> Oct 14 21:51:15 descent kernel: oom-killer: gfp_mask=0x1d2
<Keybuk> *shrug* aren't log messages great :o)
<daniels> yay!
* lamont leaves to fetch kidlets, CD.
<Keybuk> ah
<Keybuk> figured it out
* Keybuk decides to beat elmo senseless
<thom> good god. it's actually trying to snow or sleet
* Keybuk adds "ProxyCommand none" to his chinstrap.warthogs.hbd.com .ssh/config entry
<thom> Keybuk: that's typically helpful, yes
<Keybuk> hrm
<Keybuk> that doesn't help
<Keybuk> urgh
<Keybuk> I needed to add another host entry, adding it to the "chinstrap" one didn't actually turn off ProxyCommand
* _rene_ wonders whether he should buy a larger disk and help with testing/developing Ubuntu besides Debian stuff.
<daniels> thom: it's the UK, what do you expect? :)
<thom> october is a little premature
* daniels looks outside to a bright, mild day; probably low-to-mid 20s.
<daniels> all this and it's only 0718.
<Keybuk> thom: it was pretty cold last night :-/
<seb128> hate hate hate libtool, I keep getting app linked with both Xft == broken apps
<Keybuk> well, don't link apps with both Xft then
<Keybuk> it's not libtool doing that to you
<Keybuk> it doesn't conjour dependencies out of thin air
<Keybuk> if you didn't use libtool, apps would still be linked with both Xft and still broken
<seb128> yeah, probably, finding the problem is just a pain
<seb128> for the moment I can't build gtk+ and control-center on my box
<seb128> and now yelp in my jhbuild has the problem too
<seb128> I'm decided to track this down, I just need to figure how :)
<daniels> apt-get remove libxft1
<seb128> 44 to remove
<seb128> The following packages will be REMOVED:
<seb128>   abiword-plugins capplets eterm galeon galeon-common gdeb gdm gimp gimp1.2
<seb128>   gksu gnome-applets gnome-applets-data gnome-applets-dev gnome-apt
<seb128>   gnome-control-center gnome-netstatus-applet gnome-panel gnome-panel-data
<seb128> ..
<seb128>   x-window-system-core xbase-clients xlibs
<seb128> na, not good
<daniels> there's still that much stuff built against libxft1? that's total shit
<daniels> unless xlibs still deps that, but I'd be pretty surprised
<daniels> but that could explain it
<Keybuk> seb128: libtool makes that easy!
<daniels> anyway, breakfast time
<Keybuk> just look for it in the .la files
<Keybuk> the deepest one that contains /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.1 in its dependency_libs line is the culprit
<seb128> no /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.1 in /usr/lib/*.la
<Keybuk> which ones have -lXft in them?
<seb128> $ grep "lXft" /usr/lib/*.la
<seb128> /usr/lib/libodbcinstQ.la:dependency_libs=' -L/usr/X11R6/lib /usr/lib/libqt-mt.la -laudio -lXt -lpng -lz -lGL -lXmu -lXrender -lXcursor -lXinerama_pic -lXft -lfreetype -lfontconfig -lSM -lICE -lXext -lX11 /usr/lib/libodbcinst.la /usr/lib/libodbc.la /usr/lib/libltdl.la -ldl -lpthread'
<seb128> /usr/lib/libqt-mt.la:dependency_libs='-L/usr/X11R6/lib -lfontconfig -laudio -lXt -lpng -lz -lXrender -lXrandr -lXcursor -lXinerama -lXft -lfreetype -lfontconfig -lXext -lX11 -lm -lSM -lICE -ldl -lpthread '
<seb128> that's all
<daniels> *ahem*
<daniels> daniels@nanasawa:~/music/Aphex Twin/Richard D James Album% ls -l /usr/lib/libXft*.so
<daniels> lrwxrwxrwx    1 root     root           15 2004-08-31 11:07 /usr/lib/libXft.so -> libXft.so.2.1.1
<daniels> i don't think you can actually link against libxft1 anymore
<seb128> $  ls -l /usr/lib/libXft*.so
<seb128> lrwxr-xr-x  1 root root 15 2004-05-31 19:02 /usr/lib/libXft.so -> libXft.so.2.1.1
<Keybuk> daniels: sure you can, it's in /usr/X11R6/lib
<daniels> i think i stopped installing the .so with like xfree86_4.3.0-0ds3v2
<Keybuk> lrwxrwxrwx    1 root     root           13 2004-10-11 12:31 /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so.1 -> libXft.so.1.1
<daniels> Keybuk: if you explicitly specify .so.1 ...
<seb128> $ ls -l /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft*.so
<seb128> lrwxr-xr-x  1 root root 11 2004-04-06 21:23 /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so -> libXft.so.1
<Keybuk> daniels: that's why I asked him to look for that :p
<Keybuk> seb128: dpkg -S /usr/X11R6/lib/libXft.so
<seb128> Keybuk: no package !?
<daniels> seb128: wtf is that link coming from??
<daniels> remove it
<daniels> WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE.
<seb128> I think a old mess with xfree package in unstable
<daniels> then recompile everything you ever built against that libXft
<daniels> run, don't walk
<Keybuk> seb128: that be your problem, as soon as you have -L/usr/X11R6/lib, GTK+ will link with that insteadf
<seb128> Keybuk: oh ok, that would explain why I only get the problem on my box
<seb128> I'm just wondering why this link is staying here
<daniels> that'll learn you for using unsupported, experimental, X 4.3 packages :P
<seb128> daniels: yeah, I've used them :p
<daniels> seb128: there's your problem, clearly!
<seb128> I had a good reason, but I don't remember which one now :)
<Keybuk> but why didn't the symlink vanish when he upgraded ?
<daniels> they were shiny? :P
<daniels> Keybuk: i don't know.  sounds like total bong to me.
<seb128> daniels: no, IIRC to reproduce some problem with totem ...
<Keybuk> I used the experimental 4.3 packages and I don't have that symlink
<sabdfl> kamion: so what are the rsync options for mirrors?
<sabdfl> rsync://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu
<sabdfl> this gets the whole repo, right?
<sabdfl> what gets just the release cd images?
<sabdfl> and is there one that gets both, together?
<seb128> daniels, Keybuk: thanks, much better now :)
<Keybuk> "never attribute to libtool that which can be attributed to symlinks that aren't supposed to be there"
<seb128> noted :)
<doko> keybuk: is this a rumor that libtools doesn't like `~' in directory names?
<Keybuk> probably wouldn't, no :p
<Keybuk> doesn't like spaces in them either
<doko> so the introduction of `~' in version numbers is pretty useless for packages using libtool ...
<Keybuk> yeah
<jdub> mdz: fam and esd are both on the HoaryHedgehog page, slated for replacement ;)
<Keybuk> THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS YOU DON'T ALLOW NEW FEATURES TO BE TESTED UNTIL THERE'S A NEW STABLE RELEASE, FOLKS
<thom> the Wallpaper of Controversial Chaos *giggle*
* jdub goes for breakfast
<Keybuk> doko: where is this rumour?
#ubuntu-devel 2004-10-26
<vorlon> Keybuk: showed up on #d-release, I think. FWIW, I don't think libtool not being happy with ~ in upstream versions (the only part that appears in the directory name, after all) is a big deal for adoption, and I think it's already been claimed that the problem is fixed in current libtool.
<Keybuk> rofl, it isn't fixed
<doko> keybuk: good question, on #d-d or #d-r last week?
<vorlon> jdub: hmm, what's esd getting replaced with?
<vorlon> Keybuk: ok, then fix it already. ;)
<Keybuk> and wouldn't ~ be most common in the upstream version?
<thom> yikes, when did vorlon join :-)
<vorlon> thom: I have always been here.
<thom> hey dude
<Keybuk> vorlon: can't, it's kinda core to the way libtool works
<thom> damn.
<vorlon> ;)
<Keybuk> (libtool uses IFS="~" internally, basically)
<thom> *giggle*
<thom> vorlon: please don't start referring to mark as "the arrow"
<thom> that would just be disturbing
<vorlon> Keybuk: ah, well, whoever was noting it actually did suggest a patch, I apparently was under the impression it came from upstream
<vorlon> thom: <lol>
<Keybuk> it'd be far easier to fix dpkg to use a less silly character
<vorlon> we're out of less silly characters.
<vorlon> though you're right about it being more likely to appear in upstream version #s (duh), but even so, that's a per-package implementation problem, hmm? :)
<doko> hmm, `=' doesn't seem to be used much.
<vorlon> doko: makes it more fun to parse version specs in apt-get install commands. :)
<vorlon> apt-get install ssh=4.0=rc5-3?
<Keybuk> $version =~ m/[^-+:.0-9a-zA-Z~] /
<Keybuk> ^ is the current regexp
<doko> make the version string utf8 encoded and we don't have the problem anymore. utf8 is a hoary goal anyway ;)
<Keybuk> I still like the bug that proves nobody *really* uses the hurd port
<Keybuk> (dpkg can't actually cope with "-" in arch names :p)
* vorlon chuckles
<Keybuk> let alone any of Millan's toy-of-the-week ports
<doko> keybuk: we should continue this discussion on #debian-glibc, jeff's currently there :)
<Keybuk> vorlon: there's actually remarkably many silly characters left to be abused *shrug*
<vorlon> Keybuk: few that aren't already used somewhere else that would make it irritating to disambiguate and/or escape strings.
<vorlon> Keybuk: face it, it's libtool's fault. ;)
<Keybuk> heh, half the archive tools don't even support ~ at the moment; so it's a bit of a dead duck usefulness wise
<Keybuk> oh, I agree; I've waxed lyrical repeatedly that libtool should use IFS="\0" internally which would also fix the space problem
<vorlon> well, the archive tools don't need to support it until post-sarge anyway.
<Keybuk> vorlon: the ones in sarge, like apt-ftparchive do
<Keybuk> (though I think that's one of the few that does support it)
<vorlon> meh, it'd be nice if they would, but the only real requirement is that *our* archive be able to handle it before they're allowed into Debian.
<vorlon> (IMHO)
<Keybuk> it would be nice if we could work out a way of removing this restriction that dpkg features need to be in a stable release first
<Keybuk> it basically leaves amazingly critical things untested for too long
<vorlon> Solution: we use Ubuntu as a guinea pig for everything.
<Keybuk> like the bz2 support, I could merge it in but it's just not tested enough for a stable release
<Keybuk> we have the same problem
<vorlon> oh well, it was worth a try ;)
<sabdfl> i don't mind being a guinnea pig
<sabdfl> as long we we get it in early in the cycle
<sabdfl> like, bz2 should go in immediately hoary opens up
<thom> well, the real solution would be to have an ubuntu derivative called "debian madness" or somesuch
<sabdfl> ununtu?
<thom> and have all the daft ideas built in that on a weekly release cycle
<Keybuk> hrm, I can't find that thread :-(
<vorlon> thom: you *know* that would be a magnet for Gentoo users... :)
<thom> vorlon: sure. and when they grow up, they use ubuntu
<Keybuk> "Break My Buntu"
* vorlon grins
<thom> it's a win alround :-)
<Keybuk> because "break my ubuntu" is impossible for non-south-africans to say without dying of asphixiation in the middle
<vorlon> question is whether the Gentoo users would actually give useful feedback for sifting out the buggy from the non. :)
<thom> we should find some xhosa word with a nice glottal stop in
<thom> vorlon: that would be the problem
<vorlon> thom: and then we could use the glottal stop as a separation character in libtool.
<doko> sabdfl: do guinnea pigs have something to do with guinnes ;)
<daniels> thom: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=442
<Keybuk> vorlon: some idiot would try to stick it in a filename
<daniels> thom: gentoo is still the former distribution of choice for all the webforum people
* vorlon scrubs the filenames in his homedir so Keybuk doesn't see
<Keybuk> actually, I've thought of a bright side
<thom> vorlon: nice thought. i believe "xh" is the written form of a glotal stop for xhose tho
<thom> xhosa, even
<doko> daniels: ehh, no suse switcher at all ...
<pitti> night, guys!
<daniels> heh, some 'How did you find about Ubuntu?' thread
<Keybuk> you don't *really* need to build packages in a directory named source-upstream
<daniels> tempting to reply th that one
<Keybuk> if you don't, dpkg-source will bitch, but make the .diff.gz anyway
<Keybuk> but for everyone else, it'll still be unpacked in a directory named source-upstream
<Keybuk> oh, wait, no
* Keybuk derails his chain of thought
<Keybuk> (was thinking it'd stop people shipping packages that ran libtoolize ... but it's libtool itself that's broken)
* thom ambles to bed
<thom> g'night
* daniels blinks.
<daniels> thom: er, night
<thom> daniels: why surprised?
<daniels> thom: think of the kitt^Wtimezones
<daniels> not surprised, it's just a little odd, is all
<thom> 23:25
<daniels> yeah
<sabdfl> elmo: around?
<elmo> sabdfl: yeah
<sabdfl> how big is the releases only dir of cdimage?
<sabdfl> rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/releases
<daniels> gah, only 60kB/sec from auckland; still another hour to go for desktop
<elmo> 1.7Gb
<sabdfl> and with hoary that would double?
<elmo> sabdfl: yeah
<sabdfl> thanks elmo
<jdub> vorlon: polypaudio
<sabdfl> you've been fantastic through the push to release, hope you get some rest over the w/e!
<elmo> sabdfl: thanks, me too
<sabdfl> is there a way for them to mirror both packages and release install cd's and live cd with a single command?
<sabdfl> (but pref not daily cd builds, just releases)
<elmo> sabdfl: no, unfortunately not
<elmo> +yet
<sabdfl> ok, we'll work on that in due course
<sabdfl> for the brave mirrors out there
<daniels> gah, no clue where this bloody acpi bug came from
<amu> daniels: do you sleep also times or are you 24/7 awake ;) 
<lamont> mdz: liveCD is progress, of sorts...
<lamont> did y'all want X? :-(
<mdz> lamont: please talk to alex about it
<mdz> he's on jabber
<lamont> awesome
* lamont points mdz at the other window
<lamont> then again, that's probably on the wiki
<lamont> yep
<mdz> err
<mdz> lamont: I get a Morphix splash instead of an Ubuntu splash
<lamont> that too
<amu> hehe 
<lamont> so why is it that I have to 'sudo nautius' to get a window?
<lamont> nautilus, even
* lamont goes in search of bandwidth
<lifeless> lamont: I like that name, gotta find a use for it
<mdz> heh, nautius
<jdub> it was called naughtylus a lot when it was still 1.x ;)
<Keybuk> ahh, eazel
<hornbeck> mdz: the KernelHowto will have all the different options of building a kernel
<hornbeck> I have gotten requests to show the different ways
<mdz> hornbeck: great
<hornbeck> mdz: what is there right now was what I got done at work tonight
<mdz> hornbeck: I didn't intend criticism; I wasn't sure of your plans
<hornbeck> I know, that is why I am letting you know
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 5 (count 'em) major bugs
<tseng> mdz: what do you think of the mono-on-buildhost situation
<mdz> tseng: hard to say, considering I've no idea what that situation is :-)
<tseng> mdz: well, most of the mono packages are failing
<tseng> because mono-mcs has circular deps
<mdz> I see
<mdz> lamont: ping?
<mdz> lamont should be able to take care of that
<mdz> if he isn't around, send him an email
<tseng> basically it needs the compiler to build parts of mono.. i installed them from sid to start out
<lamont_r> 0.96 was problematic to bootstrap.. do we have sources somewhere to insert in to the archive?
<tseng> there is a howto on bootstrapping
<lamont_r> are we trying to bootstrap 0.96, or the new stuff from you tseng?
<tseng> hm, no one is trying to bootstrap anything atm
<tseng> but im looking at your build logs since we synced up my newer stuff
<lamont_r> tseng: let me rephrase that... what are you trying to convince me to bootstrap...
<lamont_r> so the new stuff is in our archive, and just needs to get helped through the binary circular dep-wait hell?
<tseng> lamont_r: well, either bootstrap mono 1.0.1, or just install the bins
<tseng> lamont_r: right.
<fabbione> mdz: ping
<lamont_r> could you email lamont@canonical.com a pointer to the howto, and I'll do that in the morning. right now trying to focus on the *&%)^_ livecd
<tseng> will do
(mdz/#ubuntu-devel) it was 32C here today
* Keybuk considers moving
<jdub> you'll just have to unlearn a new timezone ;)
<jamesh> 21C here.
<Keybuk> jdub: why should I care what the local timezone is? :p
<jdub> so you can buy stuff
<jdub> ;)
<Keybuk> you don't have Internet Shopping?
<jdub> then they have to wake you up to deliver it
<jamesh> some of the supermarkets used to do internet shopping
<Keybuk> and 24-hour Wal-Mart ?
<jdub> none of the convenience stores here are 24 hour, because it's "too dangerous"
<jdub> here being a ten or so block radius
<daniels> jdub: wtf?
<daniels> STREETS OF REDFERN
<daniels> see, you should move to Melbourne, because every Sevvo is 24h
<daniels> and there are a fair few 24h supermarkets also
<jdub> daniels: yeah, it's totally the redfern thing. everywhere else is fine.
<daniels> jdub: wow, that's wack
<jdub> i'm going to have to think about an air conditioner or something, if this is any indication of what summer's going to be like. :|
* Keybuk wonders whether it's a name thing
<Keybuk> most dodgy places seem to be <colour><plant or animal>
<jdub> COCKFOSTERS -> not dangerous
<jamesh> so gold coast -> not dangerous?
* AndyFitz will be in melbourne next week from  18th - 27th
<AndyFitz> monash uni is flying me down and back.  what champs
<daniels> jdub: see, this is why we need to rename Redfern to Cockfosters, remember?
<daniels> no more negative stigma
<daniels> Keybuk: try Eaglehawk, Bendigo, Ballarat, Melbourne :P
<Keybuk> see, those names are just made up
<Keybuk> like Wallabarralooloo
<daniels> Keybuk: dangerous places around here are Frankston (Franger), Broadmeadows (Broady), and ... well, that's about it
<jdub> so i was wandering around the afternoon of election day
<daniels> Keybuk: do you mean Warrnambool or Woolloomooloo?
<daniels> jdub: did you take a knife?
<jdub> and this dude was saying, "haven't seen any of those f*ckin blacks out here!"
<jamesh> in Perth, people say that Northbridge is a bit dodgy.
<Keybuk> jamesh: so do most geeks
<jdub> which intrigued me, so i slowed down to listen
<jamesh> the bridge that northbridge is north of is quite interesting though.
<jdub> must've been the only two old gizzers brave enough to be racist pigs in this area ;)
<jdub> intel make binary graphics drivers too now?
<Keybuk> the area I live in is primarily Asian
<jdub> Keybuk: when you say asian, do you mean indian too?
<Keybuk> jdub: yeah, Pakistani and Indian
<jdub> mmm, that's always sounded weird to me
<Keybuk> why?
<jdub> asian, in .au, pretty much means CJK, SEasian, etc.
<Keybuk> see, I'd call them Oriental
<jamesh> indians are called indians
<jdub> definitely not indian (they're just called indians, much to the annoyance of the pakistanis)
<Keybuk> uh, not exactly annoyance of Pakistanis ... I wouldn't *dare* risk calling a Pakistani an Indian
<Keybuk> these are two countries that were nearly at nuclear war with each other only a year or two ago
<Keybuk> people have been stabbed for less
<jdub> a friend was booted out of a taxi for talking to the pakistani driver about indian stuff
<Keybuk> indeed
<Keybuk> at least with Asian, they don't kill you
<jdub> but that's kind of a stand-out case here, as far as i'm aware
<daniels> jdub: holy fuck, yeah, being racist in Redfern wouldn't last long
<Keybuk> jdub: Britain, especially the midlands, has a very large Pakistani and Indian population
<jdub> Keybuk: in .au, they'd seriously look at you oddly, unless they were UK "Asian" themselves ;)
<Keybuk> largely from independance
<daniels> Keybuk: asian -> SE Asian, North Asian/subcontinental -> Indian/Pakistani/Sri Lankan
<Keybuk> Asian -> Indian/Pakistani; Oriental -> Chinese/Japanese/etc.
<Keybuk> another interesting thing I noticed in the two weeks in London;  when out in an Indian restaurant, I'll only eat with one hand
<Keybuk> wherease the aussies just shovel in with both :p
<fabbione> YES!
<daniels> fabbione: :)
<daniels> Keybuk: huh? we use one for the knife and one for the fork ...
<daniels> it's not like Aussies have some form of innate double-handed conveyor belt technique :P
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> you'd be kicked out of my local balti for eating like that :p
<daniels> which is good, because I don't eat like that :)
<Keybuk> I mean for eating with a two hands in general :p
* lamont_r burns a test disk
* lamont_r reboots
<lamont_r> well.  that was painful.
<lamont_r> I think I'm going to go back home and send some email
<mdz> fabbione: moved?
* mdz reads other windows
<mdz> fabbione: so I guess the new DSL is working
<fabbione> yeps
<fabbione> 100%
<fabbione> i am checking all the machines and stuff
<fabbione> mdz: anything special you want me to focus on for today?
<mdz> fabbione: after a good night's sleep, and all of my high-priority issues fixed, I would like to revisit X
<mdz> fabbione: the two autodetection fixes we talked about can go in
<fabbione> mdz: ok
<daniels> mdz: anything particular that needs revisiting?
<mdz> I am still unsure about xkb
<daniels> fabbione: which autodetection fixes rae they?
<fabbione> daniels: the MAXRES and the res @60Hz problem
<fabbione> mdz: Mark also asked to change the default X background
<fabbione> daniels: do you have the patch ready?
<mdz> fabbione: oh?
<daniels> fabbione: i'm still unconvinced on not using the whitelist -- this will break stuff
<daniels> fabbione: which patch, 099l?
<fabbione> mdz: it's to change the black/white points to something more sane
<daniels> or the colour patch?
<fabbione> daniels: the color patch
<mdz> I don't follow
<fabbione> mdz: when X starts up
<fabbione> you see the black and grey screen
<mdz> currently it is black
<daniels> fabbione: i still don't have the colour code
<fabbione> black.. it depends
<daniels> mdz: the proposal is to change this to the base gdm colour
<fabbione> for me it takes longer and i can see the spots
<mdz> interesting
<fabbione> we can change it to the default gdm background
<fabbione> that's Mark request
<fabbione> the patch is definetely safe
<daniels> i don't think you should see the stipple with -br
<mdz> so he #76848F
<mdz> er
<mdz> so he wants you to change it to #76848F?
<mdz> that is the solid colour background used in gnome
<daniels> altough it probably initialises the root window with MakeRootTile, then bzeros the pixels or something equally crackful
<daniels> mdz: would you be ok with this?
<jdub> mdz: no, #e1ca96
<mdz> jdub: what's that?
<jdub> the gdm base colour
<jdub> of the gdm theme
<mdz> anyway, if Mark asked you to do it, who am I to argue? :-)
<fabbione> mdz: the Release manager? ;)
<daniels> fabbione: er no, he's the CTO
<daniels> jdub is the release manager
<fabbione> mdz: ok let's revisit the X changes again. one by one
<mdz> fabbione: did he say "I want it in if it's OK with mdz" or "I want it in"? :-)
<daniels> ok, I'll prepare a base tile patch
<fabbione> mdz: the latter
<fabbione> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~fabbione/boom
<mdz> it seems insane to me that we should need to patch X to change that, but...
<fabbione> mdz: it's hardcoded :(
<daniels> mdz: insane != surprising
<fabbione> ok hold on
<fabbione> i need more coffee before we start
<mdz> welcome to 1975, we have these things called "command-line options"
<fabbione> i woke several hours ago to move the office
<daniels> mdz: either the root tile gets initialised to the grey/black stipple (hardcoded), or the pixels get initialised to zero (-br)
<mdz> no, I'm not surprised either
<mdz> the stipple is hardcoded
<mdz> so someone went to the trouble of creating a command-line option
<mdz> to select a different hardcoded pattern
<mdz> YAY X
* jdub doesn't really know why we need to choose something other than black, anyway.
<daniels> mdz: not as heinous as ddxLoad, dude
<mdz> black is great
<jdub> means we won't need to patch it next time we change theme...
<daniels> mdz: you're just hatin' on me 'cause I'm white
<jdub> wtf
<jdub> evo sans ldap support?
<Keybuk> my brain just parsed "sans ldap" as a font
<fabbione> re
<fabbione> the electrician is giving me some extra plugs for the office
<fabbione> mdz, jdub: should we go item by item again?
<mdz> fabbione: I do not want to update v4l at this time
<mdz> autodetection stuff is OK
<fabbione> ok
<mdz> the xkb changes are very difficult to judge because it is black magic
<daniels> yes
<daniels> i can't pass an opinion on the xkb stuff other than anecdotal reports from others of works vs doesn't work
<fabbione> so what should we do with XKB?
<mdz> let me look at the diff
<fabbione> diff
<fabbione> yeah well people.u.o/~fabbione/diff
<mdz> I already have a copy
<fabbione> ok
<mdz> it is hard to read though because it is patching patches
<mdz> not enough context
<mdz> downloading source now
<fabbione> mdz: ok
<mdz> it changes a ton of layouts
<fabbione> the diff doesn't contain the fix to the MAXRES -> $MAXRES
<fabbione> but i have it here locally
<mdz> 099l_xxf86vm_increase_verbosity actually decreases the verbosity by increasing a macro called DEFAULT_XF86VIDMODE_VERBOSITY
* mdz scratches his head
<daniels> mdz: not quite
<daniels> mdz: the verbosity level is 1 per default for console, 2 per default for logs (-verbose and -logverbose, respectively)
<daniels> mdz: the way this does it (non-intrusive as possible) is it only prints that message via ErrorF() if the verbosity level is > DEFAULT_XF86VIDMODE_VERBOSITY
<mdz> and apparently higher values mean less verbose
<daniels> and it defaults to 3
<daniels> no, higher values mean more verbose
<daniels> so this patch only prints the strings if verbosity > 3
<daniels> and since it is 1/2 per default ...
<daniels> there is a better solution to this, but it's slightly more intrusive
<mdz> so which part of what I said was incorrect?
<mdz> it does make it less verbose ("decreases the verbosity")
<daniels> yes
<daniels> the macro is probably unfortunately namede
<daniels> the correct fix is to use xf86DrvMsg() for everything, and use X_ERROR/X_WARNING/X_INFO/X_DEBUG as standard defined levels, but that's less intrusive
<daniels> since it already has the if, just with stupid magic numbers (yay cruft)
<daniels> mdz: become one with the crack
<daniels> mdz: (it helps, seriously)
<fabbione> mdz: v4l update killed
<mdz> 099j_xkb_new_layouts.diff seems to only change ca, hu, mn and vn
<fabbione> yes
<mdz> 099z_xkb_fix_rules_xfree86.diff I do not understand
<fabbione> it fixes ca and ca_enanched
<fabbione> the latter is the one that makes some multilayout crap working
<Mithrandir> Kamion: 1659; I never got a reply from you.
<mdz> 099z_xkb_level3_ralt_switch.diff I do not understand either
<fabbione> mdz: if i could explain that patch i would be able to understand XKB :P
<mdz> isn't there a bug in our bugzilla about ca_enhanced or something?
<fabbione> mdz: yes. there was a note in a bug but i couldn't find it anymore
<mdz> 1089
<fabbione> ETOOMANY XKB reports
<daniels> hm, ralt_switch_multikey vs ralt_switch
<mdz> I don't see how this fixes ca_enhanced
<mdz> the bug report says: Error:            Can't find file "pc/ca_enhanced" for symbols include
<mdz> Symlinking /etc/X11/xkb/symbols/pc/ca_enhanced to
<mdz> /etc/X11/xkb/symbols/ca_enhanced fixes the problem.
<fabbione> diff -ruN xc-old/programs/xkbcomp/symbols/pc/us xc/programs/xkbcomp/symbols/pc/us
<fabbione>  --- xc-old/programs/xkbcomp/symbols/pc/us2004-10-08 22:36:37.000000000 +0000
<fabbione> @@ -1174,7 +1172,7 @@
<fabbione>  +    key <AB10> { [     slash,   question,  questiondown,        dead_hook ]  };
<fabbione>  +    key <BKSL> { [ backslash,        bar,       notsign,        brokenbar ]  };
<fabbione>  +
<fabbione> -+    include "level3(ralt_switch_multikey)"
<fabbione> ++    include "level3(ralt_switch)"
<fabbione> mdz: the symlink is plain wrong
<fabbione> mdz: i did ask Denis in private and Branden confirmed that
<fabbione> the layout needs to be done properly
<mdz> I can do setxkbmap ca_enhanced fine
<mdz> with current Warty X
<fabbione> mdz: the problem is not when you load ONE layout
<fabbione> the problem is in multilayout environments
<mdz> how can I test it on the command line?
<fabbione> no idea
<daniels> hm
<daniels> multikey is apparently compose-like behaviour
<daniels> so I would posit that changes the behaviour of right alt from a level 3 switch to a multikey level 3 switch
<daniels> e.g. altgr-' (or whatever it is) would no longer be @ on a gb keyboard
<daniels> based on that and my tenuous understanding of XKB, I believe the patch to be correct
<daniels> but I disclaim that belief as much as possible
<mdz> so in #1089, Denis said basically that the status quo is correct
<mdz> unless we convert things from old to new format, which we aren't
<mdz> the problem is that we cannot verify anything
<mdz> this patch could completely break the hu, vn and mn layouts and we would have no idea
<mdz> unless some user reported it
<fabbione> yes and gnome people will say that is not true and that X is at fault
<fabbione> mdz: not really. this patch completes the layout
<mdz> and considering that probably 5 people use those layouts, and 1 of them uses ubuntu, that seems unlikely
<fabbione> mdz: they were first imported in u23
<mdz> u23 which was uploaded october 4th
<daniels> mdz: i think we should just throw our hands up and wontfix that one; there's really nothing we can do
<fabbione> or ubuntu24
<fabbione> let me check
<fabbione> i am not a super robot :P
<daniels> why not??
<fabbione> mdz: u24
<mdz> ok, so it is fixing a layout that did not even exist until 1 week ago
<fabbione> it's completing the fix for a layout that was supposed to be there and it wasn't in the beginning
<mdz> I'm OK with 099j_xkb_new_layouts.diff
<mdz> next up, 099z_xkb_level3_ralt_switch.diff
<mdz> this one changes 34 symbol files
<mdz> including en_US which is rather widely used
<daniels> mdz: as I said before, I believe it changes the meaning of ralt on three-level layouts from a compose-like two-key-presses-for-one-character, to a more traditional altgr-like one-key-press-for-one-character
<mdz> what is a three-level layout?
<mdz> and why is that change a good idea
<mdz> I don't see any ubuntu users saying that they expect it to do something different
<daniels> standard layouts (e.g. us) are two-level -- you have the keys, and when you press shift, you modify them to use a different 'level', as it were
<daniels> unfortunately pc104/pc105 isn't sufficient for a lot of people, so they need to go to three-level
<daniels> so altgr acts in the same way as shift, but produces different results
<fabbione> mdz: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=276143
<daniels> so on a gb (england) keyboard, pressing ' gets you ', pressing shift-' gets you ", pressing altgr-' gets you @
<daniels> (i'm not sure if that's the key @ was on, but I'm sure you get the idea.  they needed an extra symbol to accommodate the euro.)
<daniels> most people expect altgr to behave like shift -- immediately switch them to level 3, so the next keypress is treated as a standard level 3 keypress
<mdz> Unfortunately previous behavior broke other stuff.  This issue is very
<mdz> tricky and won't get fixed in sarge, your best option is to specify
<mdz> lv3:ralt_switch with altwin:meta_win.  But it does not work at the
<mdz> moment, I will make minor changes to let it work soon.
<fabbione> and he did
<daniels> but, afaict, right now it's being treated as compose-like, where you press two keys to get one (e.g. pressing right alt-u-" on my configration gives me )
<daniels> that's multikey
<fabbione> mdz: i can send the new package to 1089 reportes/etc and see if that's ok
<daniels> but I live in pc104/us natively, and the only other language I speak does the same.  so I can't substantiate this with anything much.
<mdz> this doesn't even fix 1089
<mdz> it fixes no ubuntu bug
<mdz> and the debian bug it fixes is not severe
<fabbione> mdz: 1089 will be fixed with X.org, period
<fabbione> mdz: it might fix the sticky meta thing
<fabbione> but i am not sure
<mdz> this is not the time to make blind changes and hope they fix stuff, because they might make things worse
<fabbione> 2288
<fabbione> mdz: read above
<fabbione> i can ask people to test the package across the weekend
<mdz> who?
<fabbione> ross is very responsive
<fabbione> for 2288
<mdz> does ross use this kind of layout?
<daniels> gb (english) keyboards are three-level, yes
<fabbione> gb yes
<daniels> actually, dad's laptop downstairs is three-level
<daniels> i can kick my little sister off it in half an hour, so I'll boot it into SuSE and arse around with XKB there as much as possible
<mdz> in #2288 it sounds like in an earlier xfree86, we blindly took denis' patches from xfree86 svn, and they broke things for ross
<daniels> (it has a euro symbol on the third level of 5)
<daniels> mdz: the reality is, especially with the sparsity of these wacky layouts, most everything we do with xkb is blind
<mdz> so I am learning
<fabbione> mdz: if i read correctly the debian bug i pasted before
<mdz> and that is why I don't want these changes
<fabbione> and the fix denis did
<fabbione> this change should fix ross problem
<fabbione> is that an issue to ask him to test the changes?
<daniels> yeah, I was about to say
<fabbione> i can prepare packages in less than a hour
<daniels> maybe put up a replacement xlibs on p.u.c/~fabbione/
<fabbione> daniels: that was the idea
<fabbione> mdz: if we get the changes tested, is that ok for you?
<mdz> fabbione: it doesn't matter if it fixes ross' problem. at all.
<mdz> what matters is what it does to the other thousands of users
<mdz> regressions
<mdz> we cannot regression-test this. at all.
<mdz> it is not possible
<daniels> correct
<daniels> would we be better served by deferring it to hoary and seeing if anyone complains?  (that's the reality of xkb testing, especially with eleventy billion possible configurations, and that's just for English speakers -- you just hope for the best and see if anyone bitches.)
<mdz> yes
<mdz> that seems to be the only way to do this
<daniels> i'm happy with that
<mdz> let's do an ubuntu25 with "* Fix 1152x768 @ 60 Hz mode. (Closes: #2328)" and "* Fix a nasty bug in frequencies detection logic"
<fabbione> ok so what do you want me to do?
<fabbione> revert the  * In /etc/X11/xkb/rules/xfree86, move lv3 definitions after altwin so
<fabbione>     that the former can override the latter.  See Bug#276143.
<fabbione> ?
<daniels> mdz: with or without the GetModeLine and/or gdm changes?
<mdz> daniels: Mark says he wants the background change, and I assume that is trivial
<daniels> mdz: relatively so, yes
<mdz> relatively?
<mdz> on a scale from 0 to XKB...
<mdz> daniels: the getmodeline thing seems obviously safe, but I really don't see the point
<daniels> the current code doesn't create any actual pixels using a cmap -- it just does 'foo.blackPixel' and 'foo.greyPixel', which are hard-coded into structures, or for -br, it just bzeros a struct, which ends up with a black pixel
<mdz> it is just some noise in the log file
<daniels> so it's not quite s/000000/otherhexcode/, it involves creating a pixel and doing a cmap lookup
<daniels> taking XKB to be 20, I'd say about 1.3
<daniels> mdz: fair cop
<mdz> if you and fabbione agree on the getmodeline thing, go ahead
<fabbione> i agree on 099l
<fabbione> it is safe to me
<mdz> I thought xscreensaver wrote a line when it locked anyway, but it seems to only do that when you use xscreensaver-command
<mdz> not when the timeout elapsed
<mdz> agreed, it is safe
* fabbione gets ready to ubuntify another workstation
<mdz> so, X ubuntu25 = the last three '*'s in the changelog you sent
<mdz> plus this colour change that Mark wants
<mdz> daniels: how soon can you have that patch ready?
<daniels> mdz: i'm on it now, just waiting for the tarball to extract
<fabbione> mdz: hold on a sec...
<fabbione> mdz: so no XKB changes
<mdz> correct
<fabbione> none of them
<mdz> hoary
<fabbione>   * Update "Further Information" section of FAQ.
<fabbione>   * Add FAQ entry: What are Debian's plans with respect to X.Org and
<fabbione>     XFree86?
<fabbione> ok for you?=
<mdz> if you must
<mdz> I don't know why ubuntu users need this
<fabbione> well it's documentation.. it's not like changing any code
<mdz> but I will not argue over harmless text changes
<jdub> pia just met rms
<jdub> called me to yell about how much of an unreasonable ******* he was
<mdz> you didn't warn her?
<jdub> of course
<jdub> she knew going in
<jdub> doesn't help with the shock of direct realisation though
<pitti> Morning
<fabbione> mdz: ok i reverted the XKB changes and co
<mdz> pitti: morning
<daniels> mdz: 
<daniels>         attributes[0]  = pScreen->whitePixel;
<daniels>         attributes[1]  = pScreen->blackPixel;
<daniels> versus
<daniels>    if (blackRoot)
<daniels>        bzero(back, sizeof(back));
<daniels> cool, isn't it?
<jamesh> bzero is deprecated
<daniels> Copyright 1987 by Digital Equipment Corporation, Maynard, Massachusetts
<daniels> dec is deprecated also
<daniels> so are mullets and milli vanilli, but someone forgot to tell X
<fabbione> daniels: gimme a patch
<daniels> fabbione: don't be so hasty
<daniels> you kids are so impatient
<daniels> (as a more serious response, yes, I'm working on it now)
<fabbione> mdz: 2346
<mdz> yes?
<fabbione> mdz: i am going to fake mdetect and see if something is broken in X or it is an hardware problem
<fabbione> it is enough for me to let a fake mdetect to print a standard serial mouse output
<mdz> I have a serial mouse here
<mdz> I am not using it of course, but I could plug it in to test
<fabbione> and see if it is X code or not that is broken
<fabbione> mdz: it's easier to fake the test ;)
<fabbione> but it's up to you
<fabbione> if you have 10 minutes to spend go ahaed
<mdz> tell me if it would help or not
<mdz> if it would, I will do it
<fabbione> mdz: it doesn't really matter. i can do it myself :-)
<mdz> oh wait, hmm
<mdz> I think I may have given away my serial mouse
<fabbione> mdz: don't worry
<fabbione> cat mdetect
<fabbione> #!/bin/sh
<fabbione> echo "/dev/ttyS0"
<fabbione> echo "whatever"
<fabbione> that's your serial mice
<fabbione> :P
<mdz> well, that would have allowed me to test if mdetect is not working properly
<fabbione> mdz: according to the bug mdetect is working
<fabbione> mdetect sees it if you're reminded to wiggle the mouse around during detection;
<fabbione> but then it just spits out the psaux stanza only anyway which is a bit sucky.
<fabbione> so there might be 2 problems
<fabbione> mdetect sucks
<fabbione> and a bug in X that doesn't handle properly the serial mice
<fabbione> and i can check the X side easily
<daniels> building now
<daniels> mdz: there was a slightly cleaner way, which just involved having two unsigned char arrays filled with 0x76848F and calling PutImage with XYPixmap, rather than XYBitmap
<daniels> we'll see
* fabbione feels stupid
<fabbione> a LOT
<daniels> ?
<fabbione> i nuked the svn repo for xfree86 ubuntu
<fabbione> nothing really important
<fabbione> but i mind that i lost the change history
<fabbione> anyway Keybuk has evertyhing
<fabbione> or almost
<Keybuk> o/~ He's got the whoooole world, in his hands!
<fabbione> mdz: 2346 -> mdetect problem
<amu> moins
<fabbione> moin amu ;)
<daniels> moin
<jdub> yo amu
<jdub> welcome! :)
<daniels> amu: fwiw, I caught about 3 hours worth of sleep today
<amu> buona mattina fabbione
<fabbione> amu: grazie :-)
<amu> daniels, hehe 
<Keybuk> daniels: bah, narcophile
<daniels> Keybuk: it's true :\
<daniels> (why oh why does mesa take so bloody long to compile)
<amu> ARG my mailserver ( 700km away ) give up
<Keybuk> daniels: I've been awake about 30 hours or so
<Keybuk> so this code is either brilliant, or scary
<Keybuk> but at least it's *unit tested scary code* if so :p
<daniels> Keybuk: nice
<Keybuk> though perhaps I should stop if I write  def testTakesOverTheWorldAndKillsHumanity(self):
<jdub> heh
<lamont> first root looks sane finally.  10-15 more minutes or so
<mdz> daniels: according to jdub the correct colour is #e1ca96
<Keybuk> so, we passed Knoppix on the distrowatch chart last night to become the #1 Debian derivative
<Keybuk> if we get 20 more hits a day, we pass Debian itself
<Keybuk> comical
<daniels> mdz: gah!
<fabbione> HMM
<fabbione> the initrd.gz is getting bigger
<daniels> mdz: i'll see if this works as a proof of concept, and if it does, I'll shang Fabio the patch with the corrected colour code; I need to run out in about half an hour.
<fabbione> 10Mb of ram disk aren't enough anymore
<fabbione> mdz: choose-mirror for final release. should we add the info from the official mirror list or should we wait for haory?
<amu> Keybuk: where are those stats ? 
<fabbione> mdz: installing at priority critical the question is not asked and archive is the default
<fabbione> mdz: but at lower priority it is asked
<fabbione> mdz: and it might be nice to have
<amu> ah last 1 month ... 
<Keybuk> amu: www.distrowatch.com, select daily
<mdz> fabbione: does choose-mirror have an option to enter information manually?
<fabbione> mdz: yes
<fabbione> mdz: but only if prio < critical
<fabbione> when you get the menu you have;
<fabbione> enter info manually
<fabbione> GReat Britain
<fabbione> and of course if you select the latter there is only archive
<fabbione> mirrors are easy to add
<fabbione> it's one text file
<fabbione> that needs to be synced between choose-mirror and base-config
<fabbione> but it's not like high priority problem imho
<fabbione> it's just a "it would be nice to have"
<fabbione> hey sabdfl 
<daniels> sabdfl: 'morning
<seb128> hi sabdfl 
<sabdfl> morning all
<fabbione> time to convert my gf workstation into ubuntu :-)
<amu> Keybuk: last night i added ubuntu to freshmeat  
<amu> hey sabdfl 
<mdz> fabbione: I think it would probably be OK, if we only add mirrors that we are sure will stay around
<sabdfl> hey amu
<fabbione> mdz: than i suggest we wait for haory
<fabbione> hoary
<fabbione> mdz: we will see stability of the mirrors for a few months before making them official
<daniels> holy christ
<daniels> mdz: that colour you gave me wasn't a pink stipple, was it
<mdz> daniels: I have no idea, I passed on what jdub said verbatim
<mdz> <jdub> mdz: no, #e1ca96
<daniels> bongbongbong
<daniels> failure.  i will be back later.
<daniels> should be back within 6h, and I'll look at it on the train as well.
<fabbione> daniels: gimme the patch before you go
<seb128> mdz: yes, we can change the default shorcuts (re alt+print for screenshots)
<seb128> hey hey rburton 
<rburton> hey hey seb128
<rburton> jdub: so do you think gamin is an acceptable replacement for fam at the moment
<fabbione> elmo: ping
<rburton> mdz: ping?
<fabbione> hey ross!
<rburton> hi fabbione
<mdz> rburton: ?
<rburton> fabbione: good news -- someone has made a patch for metacity which makes it xkb aware so the super bug is getting fixed both ends
<fabbione> rburton: ah cool
<rburton> mdz: i see your name in the python-apt changelog -- do  you maintain it or just make it build?
<mdz> rburton: I am apparently the maintainer
<rburton> mdz: i'd really be happy if it let me do apt transactions, add/remove packages etc
<mdz> rburton: I'd be really happy if you sent me a patch to do that :-)
<rburton> haha
<rburton> fair enough
<mdz> I don't have time
<mdz> not nearly
<mdz> you see I have this "Ubuntu" thing going on :-)
<rburton> i'll have a look and see if i can figure out how this apt-pkg thing works
<rburton> but i'm scared at how synaptic does "#define protected public" before #including the headers
<fabbione> mdz: 2389. what are we going to do with it?
<fabbione> mdz: reverting the sec fix scares me a *LOT
<pitti> mdz: do you think it makes sense for Hoary to add an explicit 'mount as async' option to pmount?
<pitti> mdz: this speeds up writes a lot, but is of course less robust against not unmounting
<mdz> pitti: I don't know, let's talk about it after the release
<pitti> mdz: okay
<mdz> fabbione: I am writing a comment now
<mdz> can anyone here test printing to an smb printer with cups?
<mdz> for #2389?
<seb128> mdz: for the inkscape problem, you said "easy to reproduce" ... you have it ?
<fabbione> mdz: i read the comment.. i can't test.. sorry
<mdz> seb128: yes
<mdz> seb128: does it not crash for you?
<seb128> mdz: no
<seb128> according to upstream bug reports
<seb128> "This is a known problem caused by the fact that you run 0.39
<seb128> before. 0.38 is not compatible with 0.39 preferences file.
<seb128> Remove your ~/.inkscape/preferences.xml and it will work."
<fabbione> ok i need to ubuntify the other workstation
<mdz> seb128: I have never run 0.39 and it happens here
<seb128> and removing the file fix it ?
<mdz> mizar:[/tmp/samba-3.0.7]  inkscape
<mdz> The program 'inkscape' received an X Window System error.
<mdz> This probably reflects a bug in the program.
<mdz> The error was 'BadValue (integer parameter out of range for operation)'.
<mdz> yes
<seb128> I don't have the bug on fresh RC install from yesterday
<mdz> moving ~/.inkscape fixed it
<seb128> ok, weird
<seb128> I'll add a comment with that for the moment
<mdz> mizar:[~]  head -1 .inkscape/preferences.xml
<mdz> <inkscape version="0.38.1"
<mdz> the file does not look like it was written by 0.39
<seb128> yeah
<mdz> I can't reproduce it on a fresh install either
<mdz> on the machine where I can reproduce it, I had opened inkscape at some point in the past, and played around with it
<mdz> viewed some files and such
<seb128> ok, so perhaps something in the preferences
<seb128> I'll play a bit with it
<mdz> hmm
<mdz> 0.39 is in DEbian
<mdz> it is possible that I ran 0.39
<seb128> ah
<seb128> I'll ask to the submitter if he ran 0.39 too
<mdz> I copied my home dir from my unstable box when I installed
<mdz> good idea
<seb128> thanks
<thom> morning
<seb128> hey thom 
<mdz> I need to sleep
<mdz> can someone take responsibility for #2389?
<mdz> i think the patch that I attached is good
<mdz> the submitter is testing it
<mdz> it is a very simple change and is needed to un-break SMB printing for Warty
<pitti> mdz: hmm, no smb prrinter here either; I can assign the bug to me, but I cannot test it
<mdz> the submitter is testing
<pitti> mdz: good night, btw
<pitti> mdz: okay, I'll take it
<mdz> ok, thanks
<mdz> night
<pitti> mdz: shall I upload if he says it's okay? (I look at the patch, too)
<mdz> pitti: yes; it only changes smbspool in samba, so it should not risk breaking any other printing
<mdz> I don't think anything else uses smbspool, but even if it did, cupsys is more important
<mdz> this is the only way to fix the security vulnerability properly
<pitti> mdz: right, printing is critical; good night!
<mdz> if successful, the patch needs to go upstream and to Debian
<mdz> Debian has an incomplete fix, and upstream's fix (which we used) broke smb printing
<mdz> good night
<mdz> really
<seb128> 'night mdz
<fabbione> night mdz
<jdub> rburton: gamin will be an acceptable replacement for fam in the hoary timeframe ;)
<rburton> jdub: so i should remove it from my laptop then? :)
<jdub> rburton: i'm using it atm
<jdub> rburton: some funny probs with nautilus desktop notifications
<rburton> i don't use nautilus for the desktop on my laptop, so that's not a problem :)
<jdub> otherwise it works very nicely :)
<rburton> cool
<rburton> and i keep the fam package?
<rburton> or can that be removed too
<thom> seb128/jdub/rburton: we're really gonna need a clean way to add stuff to the gnome session via packages for hoary; the xsession stuff happens too early (afaict) for stuff like networkmanager/fun things with powermanagement 
<rburton> there are rumours of a new session manager for 2.10
<jdub> thom: have you looked at msm in gnome cvs?
<thom> is upstream looking at having somethiung like /etc/gnome/session.d or similar, and if not can we do something about it?
<thom> jdub: no?
<jdub> rburton: gamin and libs conflict with fam
<jdub> thom: maybe check it out
<jdub> thom: some of those ideas were behind it
<rburton> jdub: not in sid they don't, i presume you need to update the package there
<jdub> rburton: hrm?!
<thom> jdub: ok. is that likely to happen in 2.10?
<jdub> potentially
<jdub> it has not been discussed as prominently as other things
<thom> right, so it needs evaluating testing and pushing?
<thom> (assuming it does what we need)
<jdub> it needs hacking, really
<jdub> it's another hp-rainy-day thing
<thom> ah
<jdub> he hacked it up, needs a champion to make it happen
<rburton> jdub: someone else had taken over developing... can you remember who?
<jdub> (though someone in red hat may do it)
<jdub> rburton: nup
<rburton> i hope g2.10 panel has XDG menus
<jamesh> rburton: it sounds like markmc wants to add them (and alex wants to remove the applications:/// gnome-vfs stuff)
<rburton> excellent
<rburton> app-install really would be nicer with that
<thom> last msm changelog entries are from Ray Strode
<thom> but that's January
<rburton> ugh
<thom> i'm gonna get lots of tea and dig
<fabbione> discover1 is broken
<jdub> Keybuk: there?
<thom> what are XDG menus, jooi
<thom> or rather, what's the difference between them and standard gnome
<jdub> thom: freedesktop standard compliant
<thom> ahr
<Riddell> doesn't standard gnome use XDG menus?
<seb128> no
<Riddell> whyever not?
<jdub> because they weren't standardised until very recently
<Keybuk> jdub: yup
<jdub> Keybuk: the wallpapers xml file - is that referred to explicitly?
<Keybuk> the desktop background properties dialog uses it, yeah
<Keybuk> without that, things don't show up
<Keybuk> though the exact filename isn't important, just which directory it's in
<jdub> so we can't dump a bunch of xml files in there and hope for it to work?
<Keybuk> yeah we can do that
<jdub> aha
<jdub> excellent
<Kamion> sabdfl: mirrors probably don't want to use rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/releases/; they want to use rsync://releases.ubuntu.com/releases/, which is the new "simple" tree we created after the recent discussion
* sabdfl notes distrowatch ranking :-)
<sabdfl> Kamion: 'k thanx, asked last night but you weren't around, will update that page now
<Kamion> yeah, I ran away for the evening :)
<sabdfl> Kamion: good thinking, we all needed a rest
<sabdfl> ok, updated it, might take a while for the apache cache to notice
<thom> heh, we're 32 on the 6 month list at distrowatch
<Mithrandir> Kamion: 1659, I never got a response from you?
* jamesh wonders how much of the distrowatch ranking comes from developers checking the distrowatch rank.
<Kamion> Mithrandir: damnit, yeah, forgot about that
<Kamion> mdz: can I make hw-detect run 'register-module rtc'?
<Mithrandir> he nightfaulted as of 1 hour ago
<Kamion> figure he'll read scrollback
<Mithrandir> yeah
<sivang> morning all
<fabbione> never trust an electrician
<fabbione> "i will take 2 minutes"
<fabbione> it took exactly the time of UPS survival + 5 seconds
<fabbione> i heard the UPS stop beeping and the server shutting down 2 seconds before he managed to give power back
<Kamion> they build UPSen that way deliberately, you know
<Kamion> they come with an electrician sensor
<fabbione> yeah
* fabbione sigs at 2411
<fabbione> this is like:
<fabbione> i dunno.. i can't find the words to explain it
<Mithrandir> mdz: I seem to stumble into futex problems with rhythmbox as well, when changing songs.. sometimes, at least.
<pitti> damn, I just wanted to decrease the major bug count to 4...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:pitti] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs
<Mithrandir> 21:25 < mdz> consider RC = severity>=critical for the remainder of the release
<pitti> Mithrandir: I know, that's why the subject says 'major bugs' :-)
<Mithrandir> ah, ok
<pitti> Mithrandir: there are no critical bugs left (which is good, but boring as a competitive subject)
<pitti> Is anybody opposed to downgrading #2409? sendmail is in universe...
<thom> do we even have that version of sasl?
<thom> and yes, definitely downgrade whatever
<pitti> thom: we had some security updates IIRC, but I did not check
<pitti> thom: the version number in the bug report seems to be wrong anyway
<pitti> thom: both sid and warty have cyrus-sasl2 2.1.19-1.3
<thom> pitti: i think that's the stable security release
<pitti> thom: ah, this may be
<pitti> Hi mvo_!
<mvo_> hi pitti, hi everyone!
<thom> hey mvo. how're you?
<mvo_> thom: fine, thanks
<mvo_> I'm (mostely) back in ubuntu land now :)
<thom> cool :-) exams and so on all done then?
<pitti> thom: I look in the source, to be sure
<seb128> hey mvo_ 
<mvo_> thom: I have to defend my thesis in one or two weeks (~45 minutes). but once that is done, I finally finished everything
<mvo_> hi seb128 
<mvo_> I'm really impressed about ubuntu! I played with it in the last week again and it's awesome :)
<pitti> Thanks for the flowers :-)
<pitti> It really rocks on iBook, sarge was pretty complicated to configure on it
<thom> baby jesus is crying when he reads the users list
<mvo_> pitti: yep, I installed ubuntu on a old G3 powerbook and it works like a charm 
<pitti> thom: still the theme trouble?
<pitti> gar, I just closed #2409, and now there's even another new major bug. :-(
<thom> pitti: yeah
<thom> http://gmane.org/plot-rate.php?group=gmane.linux.ubuntu.user
<thom> that's kinda cute
<mvo_> thom: nice :)
<Mithrandir> can you get it over a longer time span?
<jdub> thom: haha
<thom> Mithrandir: don't think so
<thom> bugzilla makes baby jesus weep
<thom> it just seems to be optimised for making sure there's no possible way you can ever feel confident filing a bug
* #ubuntu-devel  [freenode-info]  why register and identify?  your IRC nick is how people know you.  http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
<thom> hrm, needs hacking some more
<thom> it'll be a while
<amu> hey fabb1one you relocated to italy ? ....... because of the power failures? *ducks* 
<fabb1one> amu: power before.. kernel dump now
<fabb1one> each time i move the server of 1 meter is always the same story
<amu> fabb1one: next times leave the computer at the same place and move the house:)
<fabb1one> amu: ahaha it would have been much easier :-)))
<amu> hehe ;)  
<thom> rburton/jdub: I'm trying to concoct a reasonable upstream bug report for #1358; is there a gconf that specifies what the Desktop directory is, or is it just always ~/Desktop unless desktop-is-home-dir (or whatever that key is called) is selected?
<jdub> the latter
<rburton> what jdub said
<thom> right, so Firefox should probably just use ~/Desktop in a gnome environment if it's there, and if not fall back to the home dir?
<thom> (or use the gconf key, if firefox can do that)
<rburton> gconf key would be great
<asw> Hi! Sorry to interrupt but ubuntu-users and ubuntu-devel had a note about a documentation meeting today at 14:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting I don't see anybody there... 
<asw> Am I confused?
<lamont> asw: but that's nor for at least 11 more minutes... :)
<Kamion> hornbeck's there
<asw> thanks-- I see him there too.  He didn't reply when I asked if I was in the right place so I thought I'd ask here. 
<Kamion> you're in the right place, but I'm not involved with the doc team ...
<thom> rburton: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=264512
<rburton> thom: sounds great
<thom> ack. i'm thinking about writing a firefox patch
<thom> nooooooo!
<thom> must. resist.
<rburton> poor thom has been near firefox too long
<thom> ok, i think i'm saved by my total lack of understanding of how the fuck it's supposed to work
<hornbeck> sivang: are you around?
<hornbeck> doc meeting is about to start
<sivang> hornbeck : yes
<sivang> hornbeck : here
<hornbeck> get over to the meeting
<rburton> thom: argh
<rburton> thom: 550-Response: 550 <postmaster@burtonini.com>: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in virtual alias table
<rburton> thom: can you alias postmaster@burtonini.com to me please
<thom> sure
<thom> any others you've failed to mention? :-)
<thom> vicki?
<rburton> thom: redirect vicky@ to vburton@gmail.com if you wish :)
<thom> done and done
<rburton> cheers
* rburton resends mail
<mvo_> rburton, jdub: how does gnome map the category of the .desktop files to the "Applications" menu (e.g. Category=Network -> "Applications/Internet")?
<rburton> mvo_: see /etc/gnomevfs-2/vfolders/applications-all-users.vfolder-info
<mvo_> rburton: great! thanks a lot!
<jdub> rburton, mvo_: you guys might want to chat about app-install, if you haven't already.
<rburton> nope
<rburton> oh pygtk2.4 in warty now
<rburton> sweeeet
<jdub> rburton: just for you 8)
<rburton> awwww
<mvo_> I was thinking about the app-installer a bit recently. I did a mockup at: http://people.debian.org/~mvo/synaptic/ideas/synaptic-app-idea2.png
* rburton puts his mockup online
<rburton> burtonini.com/computing/screenshots/app-install.png
<mvo_> rburton: nice!
<rburton> check box should probably be something magical
<rburton> and the latest version makes the names bold if the state needs to change (i.e. adding or removing)
<thom> rburton: you should find whoever forced you to use that theme and kick their ass *ducks*
<rburton> heeeey
<rburton> thom: one day the world will see that Sandy Crack is a great theme
<rburton> i'm patient
<jdub> CRAAAAAAACK
<rburton> it's slowly happening, with ubuntu using browns
<rburton> man, my app-install code doesn't work on warty
<rburton> how annoying
<rburton> agh
<rburton> python-xdg 0.5 in warty is well bust
<sivang> justdave : ping :)
<seb128> rburton: just report bugs
<rburton> aye
<tseng> lamont: any chance to poke mono today?
<thom> tseng: when next you upload mono, can you add amd64 to the relevant architectures lines please :-)
<tseng> hmm i did it via proxy
<tseng> is it something in my package, or after I handed it off?
<thom> in debian/control
<thom> so yes, in your packages
<tseng> alright, ill be sure to check that out in the future.
<thom> if i have some time i'll do it next week cos i rather want blam! and tomboy on my desktop :-)
<tseng> :)
<tseng> they rock.
<nobse> hi
<thom> heya
<nobse> Release schedule says 4.10 will be released next week. Is this realistic?
<jdub> yes
<nobse> great
<mdz> morning
<seb128> hey mdz 
<thom> hey matt
<Kamion> mdz: that partition table order bug is common to a few people, it's been reported on #ubuntu as well
<Kamion> I *think* it must be a bug in the kernel's partition table handling but it's hard to say
<mdz> Kamion: does d-i not save copies of the answers to questions on the installed system?
<mdz> Kamion: was wondering what information to ask of the submitter of #2416
<Kamion> mdz: /var/log/debian-installer/cdebconf/
<mdz> Kamion: I see questions in there, but not answers
<Kamion> questions.dat should have all the questions
<Kamion> that's how we do d-i -> base-config answer propagation
<Kamion> it should have all the answers too :)
<mdz> ah, there they are
<mdz> stupid less defaulting to being case-sensitive
<mdz> these things get annoying after a few dozen installs...
<mdz> Kamion: are there any passwords in that file?
<Kamion> no
<Kamion> d-i doesn't do anything with passwords; if it does they'll probably live in a different file
<mdz> Kamion: regarding 'rtc', unconditionally or only on amd64?
<mdz> Mithrandir: it's possible that rhythmbox, too, has some races which are uncovered by futexes
<mdz> Mithrandir: if _gzip_ could have hidden bugs, I think rhythmbox too :-)
<mdz> Mithrandir: try running it under valgrind
* Kamion glances through the driver
<Kamion> well, Kconfig forces RTC off for PPC32, at least
<mdz> pitti gone?
<Kamion> mdz: if we weren't a few days before release I'd say on both i386 and amd64
<Kamion> mdz: as it is, might be better to be conservative
<Kamion> since AIUI there've been no bugs reported on i386 due to missing rtc
<mdz> I'm not even sure that we should do it on amd64
<Kamion> what's the alternative?
<mdz> Kamion: rtc seems to get autoloaded for me on i386
<Kamion> interesting
<Kamion> 'grep -r rtc /etc' show up anything?
<mdz> modprobe/modutils stuff, and udev
<mdz> nothing that I would expect to cause autoloading of the module
<mdz> perhaps it gets a hotplug event
<mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: lp0: using parport0 (interrupt-driven).
<mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: Capability LSM initialized
<mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: device-mapper: 4.1.0-ioctl (2003-12-10) initialised: dm@uk.sistina.com
<mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: md: md driver 0.90.0 MAX_MD_DEVS=256, MD_SB_DISKS=27
<mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: hdc: packet command error: status=0x51 { DriveReady SeekComplete Error }
<mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: hdc: packet command error: error=0x54
<mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: cdrom: open failed.
<mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: Real Time Clock Driver v1.12
<mdz> seems to get loaded shortly after /etc/modules is processed
<mdz> no idea why or where
<mdz> hmm, actually that looks like _during_ /etc/modules
<mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: Real Time Clock Driver v1.12
<mdz> Oct 13 14:48:19 localhost kernel: input: PC Speaker
<mdz> oh, never mind
<mdz> pcspkr is not loaded by /etc/modules
<Kamion> maybe something else depends on it?
<Kamion> /lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/sound/core/snd-rtctimer.ko: /lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/sound/core/snd-timer.ko /lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/sound/core/snd.ko /lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/sound/soundcore.ko /lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/drivers/char/rtc.ko
<Kamion> could be something ALSAish?
<mdz> hmmm
<mdz> I don't have snd-rtctimer loaded
<mdz> and rtc has a 0 reference count
<mdz> fabbione, daniels: what happened with X?
<mdz> we're #5 on distrowatch's 1-month list
<mdz> right behind Debian
<amu> hmm I run a pb4, i cannot listen with musicplayer mp3 oder streams, musicplayer only freeze and must be killed , it's just for me ?  
<mdz> pb4?
<amu> powerbook G4
<amu> amu@ppc:~ $ rhythmbox listen.pls
<amu> Gettet
<amu> Gettet means = coredumped
<Kamion> "Killed", in fact; SIGKILL
<amu> aaaah there's #2340  
<amu> "Try recompiling
<amu> Rhythmbox (and, if possible, its dependencies) with CFLAGS equal or
<amu> similar to "-O2 -ggdb3 -pipe"."
<amu> *shit* thats excatly what i dont want
<amu> ahha same on i386
<amu> are there news about the liveCD ? 
* lamont_r wonders how the liveCD rcc handled...
<Kamion> lamont_r: what sort of handling?
<lamont_r> did it boot?
<Kamion> don't recall
<lamont_r> sigh.  anyone with bandwidth wanna snarf 560MB?
<amu> yap :)
<mdz> airport, bbl
<lamont_r> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-18.iso
<Kamion> lamont_r: grabbing, will be a while
<lamont_r> should even have the right artwork.  Beyond that it's just making sure that the package list is right.
<Kamion> ETA 2:27
<lamont_r> eta 5:38
<amu> 23:50 :) 
<lamont_r> Kamion: clues on 1123?
<Kamion> if that's the aliases.db bug, I'm as puzzled as you
<lamont_r> yep.
<lamont_r> wonder if he cancelled out of adding a user.
* Kamion hopefully kicks off a directfb build and wanders off for a bit
<lamont_r> Kamion: we need to have a install doc somewhere that tells people that if they want to add themselves later in order to have the same (!=1000) uid on all their machines, they should really add themselves and then renumber/chown/chgrp
<lamont_r> chatted with a user wed night who did exactly that and wondered what he'd done... fortunately, single user mode lets you in to fix what you did in that case.. :)
<lamont_r> syncing xvidcore will require new processing for the binaries, sadly
<lamont_r> amu: HH:MM, or MM:SS?
<lamont_r> (the upload took 18sec, giving 28Mbytes/sec.  kinda scary.)
<amu> lamont_r: ;) mm:ss
<lamont_r> damn you :-)
* lamont_r puts 1123 on his list of things to try to reproduce when he gets home and has a test machine again
<amu> is there a limit with 3MB/s ? my backup took it with 3mb/sec  
<lamont_r> could be your provider
<lamont_r> I don't think our end has anything in the way of limits.
<amu> ;) it should be 12MB ;)
<amu> AH mlnet  
<lamont_r> only 3 hours until nap time. yeah.
<amu> booting ... 
<lamont_r> morphix or people on the boot screen?
<amu> grub ? morphix 
<lamont_r> sigh
<amu> start-splash is ubuntu, gdmsplash debian, started X ubuntu    
<lamont_r> X started?
<amu> & gnome panel crash
<lamont_r> somehow, that doesn't completely surprise me.
<amu> running a ... the "normal" brown background 
<lamont_r> I wonder if ubuntu-desktop would take us over the top..
<amu> there's also a problem with detecting video-cards 
<amu> restarting gnome-panel than it works 
<amu> empty desktop ... you should add some icons on it :) 
<lamont_r> yes
<amu> whats the problem with the bootsplash ?  
<lamont_r> I need to figure out what file to change.
<amu> message 
<amu> cdrom/boot/grub/message  
<lamont_r> thanks
<amu> just i second .. i guess alex do it in another way 
<amu> s/i/a/
<lamont_r> if -20 here fits (and the build succeeds), I'm inclined to put that out as a pre-rc for a day to get more feedback on it..
<amu> yes message was it
<amu> fucking complicated to generate one, you need suse's sources ;)  
<lamont_r> won't happen before naptime then
<amu> lamont_r: it's urgent ? probably better if you wait 2-3 days more *g* 
<lamont_r> hrm.. maybe we should get ubunut.com :-)
* lamont_r arranges to get all the bits he needs at home, so that he can test there.
<lamont_r> amu: -20 is ready to snarf
* lamont_r has a real good idea of one source of issues, that will require a nap before I tackle it...
<amu> isnt it better to send me the message file ? 
<lamont_r> -20 has all of ubuntu-desktop in it, rather than just pieces.
<amu> rsync ? 
<lamont_r> the other source of issues is that some of the packages may be coming from the wrong repository
<lamont_r> rsync doesn't buy very much at all with the huge hunk of compressed blob in the CD>
<lamont_r> takes it from 560 down to somethign like 540 or so, in my experience.
<lamont_r> and p.u.c doesn't have rsync set up.
<lamont_r> amu: how many more hours will you be awake?
<lamont_r> amu: I expect that the package with the message file in it is one of the ones under http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/local/warthog/
<amu> .... just ping me, guess 3-4h more i'm here
<amu>  665,544,704 ? is correct ? 
<lamont_r> for -20?
<lamont_r> 530511872
<amu> 530,511,872 
<lamont_r> yeah. that one
<lamont_r> 9e7f56b9225d12666b867c1edb3458f2  warty-live-20041015-20.iso
<amu> ~25:00 ETA
<lamont_r> in about 45 minutes, I need to go fetch kids from school, buzz past the doctors office, and go fetch a pair of CD's to take home.  Somewhere in there, I'd really like to get the rest of last night's sleep :(
<lamont_r> but I should be in a better position to build test images (one of those CD's is the rest of the .debs that I'm missing at home to do the build)
<amu> did you generated the splash with mkbootmsg ? 
<lamont_r> the only one I've even touched is the one in local/warthog/bootsplash-theme-warty, which would be the one with people in it.
<lamont_r> brb
<amu> stop
<amu> ;) thats the splash after grub 
<amu> .. the bootingsplash
* lamont_r has no plans to touch any images until about 3 hours from now..
<amu> ok
<lamont_r> of course, at that point, I'll be running around cluelessly trying to figure out what to change and how... :)
<amu> i told you before, you need gfx source packages. bootsplash-theme-warty is the splash-theme while booting the kernel, detecting the hw 
<amu> what you need isnt in your archive. That cost me once a time 1/2 night to figure out, what about those dammed splashes *g*  
<amu> s/what/whats
<lamont_r> amu: if you want to crunch through building the files I'll need, (and how to do that..), that'd be wonderful. :-)
<amu> yust send me the pic, 5min. later you get your messagefile  
* amu inserts a trasparent al-kaido message in it *fg* 
<lamont_r> grab ubuntu-artwork from the warty archive, and then grab /usr/share/gdm/themes/Human/background.jpg
<lamont_r> but I do need to understand the process so that I can do it later.. :(
<amu> just joking i`ll send you the sources and you do it ;) 
<lamont_r> awesome
<amu> http://amu.debian.net/lamont/gfx.tgz 
<amu> btw. i suggest you buy some rewriteables ;)    
<lamont_r> oh, yeah.  got plenty
<amu> you got the file ? 
<lamont_r> yeah
<lamont_r> amu: did -20 boot ok for you?
<amu> i`ll test meanwhile -20 
<amu> burning now 
<amu> Track 01:   95 of  505 MB written (fifo 100%)  10.3x.
<amu> how gfx works is clear ? 
<lamont_r> amu: dunno - will have to look at it.
<amu> convert background.jpg background.pcx and run make 
<amu> ...inside the /SuSE dir 
<lamont_r> trivial. I like that.
<lamont_r> of course, it helps to have the right packages installed... :-)
<amu> yes, if you know how to do it ;) 
* lamont_r fetches imagemagcik
<lamont_r> thank you for saving me several hours of time that I don't have.
<lamont_r> time to run for a while.  fetching kids and bits.
<amu> please run a grep gnoppix, i do not know anymore which file i changed 
<mako> i have now seen ubuntu spelled with *every* vowel as teh final letter
<mako> i was missing 'a' but daf found it
<Mithrandir> mdz: yeah, I'll valgrind it sometime tomorrow or so.  Tired now -> sleep
<Mithrandir> ubunti?
<Mithrandir> and ubunt ?  (Yeah,  isn't a vowel in English, I know)
<doko> hmm, noticing that /etc/debian_version still lists testing/unstable. I know we have /etc/lsb-release, but we should change /etc/debian_version to something different than the current.
<sabdfl> anybody have any idea what could cause a problem loading the floppy module during install?
<sabdfl> http://www.pastebin.com/110626
<sabdfl> Bung_ in #ubuntu is seeing it
<sabdfl> it's preventing him from getting to the hot artwork he wants so badly to see
* sabdfl runs quickly away
<sabdfl> lamont: could you give me a quick update on the live cd status please?
<asw> sabdfl: earlier today the doc team agreed I'd ask you about licensing... can I do that at some point?  (I'm sorry for the vague email I wrote you the other day.) I'm alexander wait. 
<amu> sabdfl: he left, he must change the the grub-splash, deactive some debug bootmessages, preconfigure the apps, i guess tomorrow he has something which is worth to upload
<sabdfl> asw: go ahead
<sabdfl> asw: email or irc
<sabdfl> amu: ok, thanks
<asw> sabdfl: irc/telephone/in person in increasing order of preference. =^) 
<sivang> sabdfl : We've agreed that having everything licesned under GFDL sould oppose problem for debian incorporating our works, I suggested and collin agreed that a clarified artisitic license would be good, what do you think?
<asw> sivang: absolutely but, say, I have a book "the emacs manual" with an invariant section "the gnu manifesto", surely, the extra work of evaluting such contributions on a case by case basis is worth the trouble (if you care about freedom.)
<asw> wholesale excluding documents with (invariant) political speech is not "free".  imho
<sabdfl> hey mvo
<sabdfl> sivang: there are two separate decisions
<sabdfl> one is: what licence will we use for work that we create?
<sabdfl> the second is: what other licences will we accept for content that is part of ubuntu, created by other people?
<sabdfl> which collin?
<sivang> kmaion
<sivang> kamion
<asw> sivang: why not a copyleft?  
<sivang> sound good enough
<sivang> I'll have to investiagte this further, and I have leave now. could we continue this on -devel?
<carlos> php4-imap is not installable under ubuntu
<chrisa> Is setting up an ubuntu mirror the same process as setting up a debian mirror?
<sabdfl> chrisa: basically
<sabdfl> rsync
<sabdfl> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/download/mirror
#ubuntu-devel 2004-10-27
<Kamion> sivang: I didn't expect to be quoted on that, I thought you were throwing out the artistic licence as a random idea and said on general principles that the clarified artistic is better
<Kamion> sivang: my personal view is that the GPL's an excellent licence for documentation
<asw> kamion: I agree with that. But there are circumstances where I think an invariant section is apropriate and in that case the GFDL is the only choice.  This leads to case-by-case decisions which I think is only fair. 
<asw> (I agree that a copyleft license like the GPL is an excellent choice for documentation.) 
<asw> I could even go further and say I think GPL should be the preferred choice. 
<asw> (but this is a community decision... I'm just casting an opinion.) 
<Kamion> so far I've just seen the GFDL's invariant sections abused far too much to be happy with them, really
<Kamion> most of the uses I've seen of them are actually not permitted under the terms of the GFDL, which leads me to believe that that provision is a shotgun loaded with rather too explosive bullets
<Kamion> I've seen documents full of technical content that was almost entirely designated as invariant
<Kamion> (which the GFDL explicitly disallows, but it makes documents an enormous amount of work to categorise)
<asw> kamion. it's impossible to permit (invariant) political speech without involving human judgement that it really is -- political speech -- 
<Kamion> I'd rather not have a licence with the GNU stamp on it permitting it at all
<Kamion> invariance, that is
<asw> but the point is that nothing deserves protection more than political speech.  If RMS can't include the GNU Manifesto in an emacs manual that just isn't freedom in any important sense. 
<Kamion> I think political speech should be freely quotable and modifiable provided that you don't remove credit from it
<Kamion> that is, after all, what real politicians do.
<Kamion> RMS can include the GNU manifesto if he's willing to allow people to quote from it and modify it as long as they make it clear that they've made changes
<Kamion> the fact that he's unwilling to do this is his own problem, not a matter for freedom
<Kamion> and people should be allowed to remove the manifesto from the thing they're distributing if they don't like it
<Kamion> however, that doesn't fit RMS' political goals
<Kamion> which is all well and good, but "what RMS likes" isn't necessarily the same as free
<Kamion> anyway, I'm ranting, time to do other things :)
<asw> Kamion would you be willing to have the GNU Emacs manual in Ubuntu if it includes the GNU Manifesto as an invariant section?  Would Ubuntu still be a project you could be proud of in that case?
<Kamion> what goes into Ubuntu is not entirely my decision :)
<Kamion> I'm not willing to speak for Ubuntu on this.
<asw> yes- but the goal in this community is consensus. 
<jdub> asw: hrm, let's not use arguments like that to make points - it is not productive
<Kamion> There are many things that I think should or should not happen; only a few of them get to significantly affect my pride in the project as a whole, whether the community as a whole agrees with me or not.
<Kamion> or, in other words, what jdub said :)
<asw> I can only speak for myself but I would personally be happier if manuals with invariant sections were included on a case by case basis.  If that's the ubuntu policy then I'm happy.  
<asw> Having said that I agree that it creates more work and should not be the default of any documentation we make. I already said I agree with kamion that the GPL is a fine license for that. 
<asw> jdub? 
<amu> I must note that, "in other words, what jdub said", sound cool
<asw> amu?
<Kamion> asw: the Ubuntu licensing policy is here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/licensing - and it does say that we'll evaluate documentation on a case-by-case basis, so I think you're OK there.
<Kamion> hence why I'm trying to separate out my personal opinions, and maybe not doing a very good job of it :)
<amu> asw: thats something for my fortunes
<asw> kamion: thanks for the link.  I suppose the point is that in practice that will mean reaching consensus on accepting/rejecting documents.  Sicne I think everybody agrees that an algorithm wont do it for us -- actual humans will have to make that decision.  Is there going to be a vote? I know who the ultimate decision maker will be but the point is that it should never have to reach that level...  [wikipedia has this problem with enforcin
<asw> g neutral point of view.]  
<asw> There is no point of having a "case-by-case" policy if everybody knows in practice the community will reject every case an invariant section is included in a document. 
<sivang> Kaimon : what would you say would be a good license to aid debian in using our works?
<asw> I thought GPL was already proposed. 
<Kamion> that's my feeling, yes
<Kamion> but any simple GPL-style or BSD-style licence will get wide acceptance
<asw> sivang would you be satisfied with GPL as default? 
<asw> kaimon: believe it or not I had this exact conversation with the maintainer of the REC.GAMES.COREWAR FAQ over email.  I have offered to take over maintenance and re-license (from proprietary) to use GPL but he wants to use GFDL.  I hope to change his mind.  (I was only arguing for GFDL on case-by-case.)  
<asw> [sigh]  maybe this is enough on licensing for one day... 
<Kamion> I had a rather extensive debate with the LDP guys a while back over licensing; kinda burned myself out on doc licensing back then :)
<Kamion> (having an entire story on slashdot dedicated to flaming you personally tends to burn you out on things)
<asw> [laughing]  I'm curious I want to go find the story now.  Where do I look? =^) 
<Kamion> hm, it was back in 2001 or something
<Kamion> December 2001
<Kamion> a friend of mine's response to it was:
<Kamion> "So, do you feel like a fascist? I shall expect to see a red flag flying
<Kamion> outside your house next time I drop by, assuming you're not out shooting
<Kamion> some Jews or something.
<Kamion> "
<Kamion> :-)
<asw> I will look it up when I ahve a chance. [laughing some more]  
<asw> Kamion: are you the person to ask about 3D graphics support in upcoming releases. 
<Kamion> http://slashdot.org/articles/01/12/06/133251.shtml
<asw> I've offered to work on "ubuntu for scientists" but a more narrow (and doable) project is documenting X3D/VRML on Ubuntu.
<Kamion> asw: no, fabbione/daniels might be better candidates
<asw> unfortunately the reference implementation of X3D relies on Java...
<Kamion> eek
<asw> is there a Java policy yet?  anyone working on it? (I haven't even tried to get the java X3D viewer to work on my debian box but I might just do it on a clean ubuntu install.) 
<asw> eek?
<asw> (believe it or not I haven't used windows for five+ years so I haven't got the java X3d viewer working anywhere.) 
<Kamion> I don't recall exactly where we landed, but getting X3D in will be a much easier sell if it works with one of the free JVMs
<asw> x3d works without java
<Kamion> the ref impl, I mean
<Kamion> give it a try with jikes and kaffe
<asw> frankly I have little use for java when I can help it. It's just that 3d graphics is not what I want to spend my time doing and so using a standard like X3d seems the way to go (since I have a highly 3d application.)   
<asw> I just wanted to know if there was a person thinking about "java" on ubuntu yet.
<asw> there is a very nice c++ toolkit http://artis.imag.fr/Software/X3D/ looking for a debian/ubuntu maintener.  It compiles out of the box on debian (sid) so it really shouldn't be much work to get it into an upcoming release. 
<sabdfl> asw: you're welcome to put a package together for universe
<asw> frankly. I'm still a newbie when it comes to maintaining packages. but I will if I can't find anybody else.  I'm just trying to get a feel for who is doing what. and how things are done around here. \
<Kamion> generally the core team hasn't been putting any effort into anything that's not part of Ubuntu proper, short of occasionally poking it to make it build
<asw> kamion & sabdfl: I will also aproach the x3d guys and see if they will help with supporting a free jvm.  
<Kamion> personally if I wanted to get a package into universe I think I'd get it into Debian and watch it automatically propagate into Ubuntu :)
<sabdfl> or Ubuntu improper for that matter. *cough*
<Kamion> sabdfl: :-)
<sabdfl> Kamion: we'll have a faster process for universe, i think
<sabdfl> need to figure out what that process is, exactly, but since we don't provide support for those packages our threshold can be fairly low
<Kamion> just feels easier to work with the community that way in the case of new packages
<Kamion> but I expect some people to disagree with me :)
<asw> kamion: yeah, that was my plan. (I'll try and get the Inria X3D toolkit into Debian -- I already have the blessing of the upstream maintainer and as I said he already has it compile out of the box.) 
<jdub> Kamion: totally agree, btw. having packages in our tree that are not in debian seems unwise (other than obviously ubuntu-specific things, like u-a)
<asw> this is a stupid question but what's a "core package" and how does it get there?  Is it like "main" in debian? or no? 
<Kamion> asw: it's the bits we selected to make up Ubuntu (minus universe)
<jdub> asw: the word 'core' doesn't mean anything in ubuntu land
<jdub> asw: you probably mean main (which is base + desktop + supported seeds)
<jdub> (and other bits to make all of that work)
<Kamion> (main+restricted)
<jdub> (it's kinda complicated)
<Kamion> it's accumulated an amusing amount of gargoyley bits in a mere six months
<Kamion> reminds me; must get round to making germinate public.
<asw> you are going to do releases every six. It should get interesting. 
<Kamion> oh, does anyone know how to mirror just part of an arch archive, or even if you can?
<Kamion> I realised that making germinate's history public means that I have to either do that or create some kind of a public branch
<Kamion> (the archive containing germinate contains a bunch of other stuff as well, not sure whether all of it should be public)
* lamont returns
<lamont> sabdfl: ping
<sabdfl> lamont: hi
<lamont> status on live cd
<lamont> I think I have everything now to build bits at the house, which will shorten the turnaround on testing, although it's still 30+min/iteration
<Kamion> heh, strange reversal; for me it always worked out faster to build in the datacentre, but that's because rsync works for me :)
<lamont> I still need to catch another hour's sleep before I'm really safe to be doing any serious hacking
<lamont> and then I need to deal with the other 3 of 4 splash screens
<lamont> grub says morphix, bootsplash is ubuntu, etc
<lamont> then I need to apply some sanity filters to the packages and where they're coming from
<lamont> all in all, I'm hoping to have something for the developer community tonight sometime, and more general release tomorrow night (US times)
<lamont> sabdfl: actually, looking at people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-20.iso the grub splash is the only really unacceptable one.
<sabdfl> ok, thanks for the update
<sabdfl> lamont: how is it working?
<sabdfl> branding aside?
<lamont> seems OK on the vaio
<sabdfl> great!
<sabdfl> do you have alex's latest kernel, with all our drivers?
<lamont> alex's latest stuff, our latest stuff
<sabdfl> Kamion: do you know if we are blacklisting oss modules where we know we have alsa ones?
<sabdfl> lamont: super
<lamont> however, there may be some morphix/knoppix packages overriding warty packages.
<lamont> that's the package sanity that needs to be applied
<sabdfl> ok, would you know which ones?
<lamont-live> moo even
<sabdfl> shush, lamont-live, this channel covers the indian subcontinent too
<sabdfl> moo back
<jdub> regarding the topic of this thread, wait 6 new background images to see
<jdub> the new xorg server in hoary ;)
<jdub> ^ heh ;-)
<jdub> like counting sleeps
<lamont-live> of course, with 256 MB of RAM on the box, this is a bit sluggish...
<Kamion> sabdfl: not to my knowledge (although that's not the same as no)
<lamont-live> fireing up oo.o
<sabdfl> Kamion: oops
<sabdfl> i wonder if that isn't the cause of a lot of the sound problems
<Kamion> sabdfl: does it cause a problem to have the oss equivalents?
<Kamion> I thought we were supporting both for warty and killing oss for hoary, but I might be out of touch
<sabdfl> Kamion: certainly does in some cases, can't say definitively
<Kamion> d'oh
<jdub> haha, dudes in the linuxtoday editorial:
<jdub> "Did anybody notice the new bootsplash and login screens for Ubuntu Linux that came out in the latest release this week? Apparently, some people thought that the photos of less than fully clothed twenty-somethings were a bit too sexual. having been in theatre, I have seen a lot worse. The word from the Ubuntu folks was that these folks were supposed to represent humanity. That's cool by me. I had a question, though. How did they come up with the money fo
* lamont configures a printer to print his oo.o document
<sabdfl> Kamion: we were using the oss intereface that also provides
<sabdfl> alsa, not also
<sabdfl> mdz: need you to weigh in on something
<sabdfl> anyhow, what do you guys think of me hosting am irc chat to discuss the artwork, to get a broader community view?
<jdub> Kamion: can't really choose to kill oss compat for hoary unless we put in the time to make it work
<jdub> sabdfl: might just be painful
<Kamion> discover seems to load a few oss modules (not all of them), I'm sure hotplug does too
<Kamion> could probably go through discover and change the listings, at least
<Kamion> for hotplug a blacklist would be possible
<sabdfl> jdub: i've been asking on #ubuntu, and feedback has actually been quite positive
<sabdfl> mdz: around?
<sabdfl> discover.conf allows you to blacklist
<sabdfl> "skip xxx"
<jdub> yeah, though not sure people on a massive and busy irc channel are hugely representative ;)
<sabdfl> jdub: got a better suggestion?
<sivang> i really likr the bootsplash
<Kamion> sabdfl: yes, but much better to list the right drivers than to blacklist the wrong ones
<sabdfl> slashdot poll? <duck>
<sivang> night all
<sabdfl> Kamion: listing the right one doesn't stop it from loading the wrong one, afaik
<sabdfl> and if it loads the wrong one first, then the right one is blocked
<Kamion> uh, discover won't do that
<Kamion> something else might
<jdub> sabdfl: not off the top of my head, if you're wanting wider response than the mailing list
<Kamion> alsa-base does the hotplug blacklist, I think
<sabdfl> jdub: i'm trying to get a sense of what the average user thinks, not just the user that vents on a list about it
<jdub> sabdfl: your best bet, scarily enough, is to go to a shopping centre and ask normal people :-)
<Kamion> anyway, if discover1-data/pci.lst doesn't list the OSS drivers then discover won't load them, so that's the cleanest solution if mdz's happy with the change at this date
<jdub> sabdfl: (yeah, irc is less representative than a mailing list)
<sabdfl> hmm... so would the question go something like:
<sabdfl> "folks are you offended by all of these images you see in advertisements around you"?
<Kamion> that sounds like a leading question
<jdub> i'd ask a few
<jdub> "Do you like this image?"
<sabdfl> anyhow, we've had our debate, and i'm close to a decision, but i would like to host the discussion in a more interactive form than the mailing list
<jdub> "Would you like this on a billboard advertisement?"
<jdub> "Would you like this on your computer?"
<jdub> those kinds of things
<jdub> perhaps go into specific use cases
<sabdfl> since we clearly can't do that before release, i suggest we focus on the options we do have
<jdub> heh: "And, more seriously, does anyone at Linspire ever do anything than come up with silly marketing schemes?"
<jdub> sabdfl: it's saturday morning here ;)
<jdub> (jesus, i can't believe i'm suggesting a survey and/or focus group)
<sabdfl> ok, when would be the best time to host a discussion on irc on this?
<sabdfl> over the w/e, or monday?
<sabdfl> (my preference is in 12 hours time)
<sabdfl> we are not trying to get everyone, just a sample
<jdub> w/e is pretty good
<sabdfl> sat, sunday? 
<jdub> 12 hours means sat night here
<jdub> maybe more notice would be good
* sabdfl wonders whether 9:00am sunday texas time wouldn't be ideal
<jdub> hahaha
<sabdfl> we could do it monday, but that leaves things very tight for the changes we are going to have to make, inevitably
<jdub> the changes are not very scary
<jdub> just one package
<jdub> sabdfl: btw, stretched gdm doesn't look too bad. they just look chubby. ;)
<jdub> sabdfl: oh, the plain and simple backgrounds - do we really want them? they're not really different enough from the default
<lamont> actually, playing with -20, I think I would like it if more people would grab it and give me feedback.  http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-20.iso
<lamont> seems to work fine on my laptop.
<lamont> meanwhile, creating the livecd build environment here to do testing.  hope I don't have to run down the street to fetch more bits.
<sabdfl> jdub: can do without the one which has the gradient and nothing else
<sabdfl> the other one (simple?) is useful because it's monocolour
<sabdfl> or, few colours
<jdub> ok
<jdub> mind if i call them 'Chocolate' and 'Chocolate Simple'?
<jdub> same issue as calling things 'Ubuntu' and 'Default'
<sabdfl> jdub: not at all, go ahead
<sabdfl> "chocolate calender"?
<jdub> calendar ones are better off with month names
<sabdfl> i was checked into a hotel in jhb the other day
<sabdfl> and the guy was telling me that several of my foundation employees had stayed there
<sabdfl> then he said "last week we had miss january"
<sabdfl> so i asked him why he couldn't have miss september there for me
<sabdfl> he looked at me blankly
<jdub> heh
<sabdfl> then i remembered i actually have an employee called Miss January
<jdub> hahaha
<sabdfl> oops
* Kamion falls over
<sabdfl> i was a little embarrassed
<jdub> badness ;)
<lamont> thom: you around?
<lamont> nm
<jdub> hrm
<lifeless> mmm?
<jdub> recommended course of action when an upstream release is made in ... .zip format?
<jdub> lamont, Kamion: ?
<lifeless> fall over laughing, point finger at upstream
<Kamion> unzip and repack as .tar.gz
<jdub> (ok, more out of interest now than necessity)
<jdub> Kamion: ahr
<jdub> thanks
<jdub> fear ;)
<Kamion> aye
<mjg59> Beagle is astoundingly lovely gorgeous
<mjg59> Except for it consuming far too much in the way of resources and being generally slow, but still
* mjg59 needs to hack up his gnome session to launch it on login
* jdub is just pulling together simias/ifolder packages
<mjg59> Oooh
<mjg59> jdub: You are my bestest friend in the whole world
<jdub> i've been pimping culchie, too
<jdub> friend followed up to a post about it
<jdub> "is that guy irish, and knows what culchie means?"
<jdub> "absolutely."
<jdub> (he's fake irish)
<mjg59> Haha
* mjg59 crashes totem without the aid of culchie
<mjg59> Feck
<lamont> Kamion: I found what happened with 1123
<lamont> elmo about?
* lamont starts to become convinced that his ubuntu upload script is uploading to the great bitbucket in the sky.
<lamont> mdz/jdub: mind if I re-upload the fix to 1123?
<lamont> and this time I'll babysit it through the entire process until it's IN THE (*^)%$%)&*_^*R^& ARCHIVE
* mjg59 now has flashing LED during suspend to disk support
<jdub> lamont: did mdz confirm it earlier?
<lamont> I believe so
<jdub> if it's approved and just needs upload babying, that should be okay, surely?
<lamont> well, it was approved october 5
<lamont> which was, like, a different universe
<jdub> heh
<Kamion> mjg59: culchie is an excellent name :-)
<jdub> lamont: ok, reconfirmed
<lamont> thanks. Uploading now
* Kamion attempts to turn d-i's library handling upside down. oh dear
<lamont> Successfully uploaded packages.
<lamont> lets see...
<Kamion> oh my god, it BUILT
<Kamion> and I have a 13MB compressed initrd
* Kamion does a little dance
<lamont> Kamion: I'm not sure which scares me more...
<Kamion> this is gtk d-i
<Kamion> chances of it actually working are minimal :-)
<lamont> source is in the archive.
<tseng> #ubuntu has now seen it all.
<tseng> are there still nfs/portmapper bugs?
<Kamion> whoa
<Kamion> IT BOOTS
<nasdaq4088> :)
<Kamion> (albeit with init=/bin/sh and stepping through things by hand then fixing stuff up before starting d-i)
<Kamion> it's the ugliest graphical installer in all history ever, but IT BOOTS
<lamont> Kamion: awesome.
<mjg59> Kamion: That's, uh, sick.
<Kamion> which?
<mjg59> The idea of a graphical installer like that :)
<Kamion> not intended to stay that way, of course
<Kamion> but the fact that gtk theme engines are linked against libgtk-x11 means it's an extra layer of pain and suffering to drop a nice theme in
<Kamion> I wonder if they actually use X calls
<Kamion> mmm, yum, conffiles in d-i
* Kamion hacks the build system to move *.dpkg-new to *
* mdz scratches his head at #2434
<Kamion> mdz: it's an odd one, isn't it?
<Kamion> mdz: your answer is the only one I can think of, but he said he didn't have a network
<mdz> Kamion: do we even have CD images old enough to not have that change?
<Kamion> no
<Kamion> well, unless he dug up Sounder $SMALLNUM
<Kamion> 5 or less I think
<jdub> Kamion: oh, fun!
<Kamion> damnit, hate when my mirror decides to update (and desync) in the middle of doing work
<mjg59> Oh.
<mjg59> I have the Beagle/GTKFileChooser interaction working.
<mjg59> This is just stupendously cool.
<jdub> stfu
<mjg59> jdub: Dude, I have packages
<jdub> cool
<jdub> thom was doing some stuff on those too
<jdub> thom: pingeriner
<mjg59> jdub: Dude, it's 03:30 here
<jdub> oh yeah
<Kamion> woohoo, and now it boots without post-boot hackery
<fabbione> morning guys
<lamont> fabbione: wanna bang on a livecd?
<fabbione> lamont: why not...
<lamont> well, it's certainly not the one we'll ship, for starters.. :-)
<lamont> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-20.iso
<lamont> artwork is known to be in need of work
<fabbione> ok
<lamont> but seems to work for me.
<fabbione> 40min ETA
<lamont> gnomesword (universe) is ftbfs, btw.
<lamont> so syncing it from debian didn't really do much. :-(
<mdz> lamont: yeah, mentioned it to the requesters already
<mdz> probably some fast-buildd race, since it built for them
<mdz> but even the ones they built didn't work, so it's doubly fucked
<lamont> heh
<lamont> usually it's because *.am is patched after *.in in their diff.gz
<daniels> jamesh: ping
<Keybuk> lamont: flipdiff
<lamont> when does apt say 'E: Broken packages'?
<fabbione> daniels: ping
<daniels> pong
<mdz> lamont: uninstallable packages
<fabbione> mdz: did you get the color code patch from daniels?
<lamont> figures
<daniels> fabbione: not yet, just woke up
<daniels> working on it now
<fabbione> this message from the kernel is scary
<fabbione> i have never seen it before
<vorlon> fabbione: "I am your singing telegram"?
<fabbione> vorlon: no i am waiting the boot to ssh and copy&pastye
<fabbione> crap!
<fabbione> it doesn't show in dmesg
<fabbione> an no
<fabbione> here it is
<fabbione> PCI: Address space collision on region 7 of bridge 0000:00:1f.0 [f800:f87f] 
<fabbione> PCI: Address space collision on region 8 of bridge 0000:00:1f.0 [fa00:fa3f] 
<fabbione> PCI: Transparent bridge - 0000:00:1e.0
<fabbione> PCI: Cannot allocate resource region 9 of bridge 0000:00:01.0
<vorlon> yum.
<Keybuk> I like the "Mr Potato Head" ones
<lamont> fabbione: I get one of those on my machine...
<daniels> ok, I've got it, just need to get the colour right now
<daniels> (you need to allocate a scratch GC, change the fill style, then draw that into a 1x1 rectangle which you use as a template for a polyfill of the entire root window)
* Keybuk gets one of these with the Ubuntu kernel
<Keybuk> PCI: Cannot allocate resource region 4 of device 0000:00:02.1
<daniels> (not to mention allocating a colormap first to do the rgb->pixel translation; I forgot that the pixel values were different in X land, they're sort of packed unsigned longs)
<Keybuk> I just assumed it was the PCI stuff feeling needy and wanting someone to notice it
<daniels> s/X land/Xserver land/
<lamont> Oct 14 06:53:39 mix kernel: PCI: Cannot allocate resource region 4 of device 0000:00:02.1
<lamont> 0000:00:02.1 SMBus: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] : Unknown device 0016
<Keybuk> 0000:00:02.1 SMBus: Silicon Integrated Systems [SiS] : Unknown device 0016
<Keybuk> snap
<fabbione> lamont: i am not too scared about it.
<fabbione> windows works as much as all the hardware in linux
<fabbione> but sometimes it seems more slow than usual
<fabbione> probably it ware there before too and i did never notice
<Keybuk> Oct 16 03:05:09 descent kernel: APIC error on CPU0: 02(40)
<Keybuk> ^ I get a lot of those too
<fabbione> Keybuk: you are doomed :P
<Keybuk> doesn't seem to do or mean anything, I just think it likes chatting
<jdub> it means "plug in the CPU, silly mans!"
<fabbione> lamont: it boots fine here
<fabbione> (the live cd)
<fabbione-live> there
<lamont> cool.  see anything besides the artwork, please send me email
<lamont-live> ditto
<fabbione> i need to kill a user for stupidity first
* lamont needs to get some sleep, and then fix the artwork and upload an RC.  But not before sleep.
<lamont> anyone who wants something to play with is welcome to play with -20, but understand that the artwork is not done yet
<lamont> gotta get rid of that morphix grub message. :-)
* lamont finishes his check of package collisions, decides that sysvinit was the only one.  handy
<daniels> mdz: ok, I'm not sure this is doable, tbh
<daniels> mdz: hardcoding the pixel values in works fine (but this is bogus, because that's only realistically going to work on my setup, unless I'm very much mistaken), but it looks like the colormap simply isn't installed when we call MakeRootTile()
<daniels> mdz: all of my calls to colormap stuff just returns with a black pixel
<lamont> seb128 around?
<daniels> fabbione: ^^
<lamont> GAH
<lamont> cdr drive is unhappy
<fabbione> bah
<fabbione> module-init-tools or kernel is broken
<fabbione> if you ban a module
<fabbione> it still gets loaded
<fabbione> like if you remove the ipv6 aliase
<fabbione> the first application that attempts to access ipv6 will trigger the module load
<lamont> fabbione: as it sits, postfix requires ipv6 :-(
<lamont> listens on ::1 and 127.0.0.1
<fabbione> lamont: postfix is not the only one at fault
<fabbione> see 2443
<fabbione> the funny thing is that if you trigger the failure once
<fabbione> and compare teh 2 ntpdate strace
<fabbione> you can see that at the first time it tries a modprobe
<fabbione> the second time it simply say: hey protocol not supported
<fabbione> hem to trigger the failure you need to do the workaround described there
<lamont> likewise, postfix forces ipv4
<daniels> thom: would you be happy with uploading acpi-support to stop/start hal around suspend/resume to fix #1940?
<daniels> mdz: ^^
<fabbione> daniels: i read that stuff
<daniels> fabbione: 1940?
<fabbione> no the color thingy
<fabbione> can't we just replace the MakeWhitePix with MakeUbuntuPix?
<daniels> thing is, 0 is always going to be black, and 1 is always going to be white
<daniels> but UbuntuPix won't always be 14797462
<daniels> (depends on the depth, how it's packed, possibly endianness ...)
<daniels> and I'm not sure that we have a working colormap installed at MakeRootTile() time
<daniels> right, I'm almost certain now that there is no colormap installed for the root window when we come to make the root tile
<daniels> as in, about one hundred per cent
<doko> morning
<daniels> gah, this is bongtastic.
* daniels -> mowing lawns
* lamont heads to bed to get a few hours, such that rational thought is possible.
<SuperL4g> Are there multiple apt mirrors for Ubuntu, or just one?
<Keybuk> there are a few
<Keybuk> http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/Archive
<SuperL4g> Thank you, sir.
<amu> moin maedels
<sabdfl>  /msg jdub how's the artwork looking?
<amu>  /msg sabdfl g'morning ;)
<sabdfl> hey amu
<amu> testing live and got around +50 bugs *g* 
<sabdfl> amu: bugs in the packages or bugs in the way the livecd works?
<amu> kind of both, ex. sound works, playing mp3/streams doesnt, some are from design, like screensaver, he ask my password, but i didnt set one  
<sabdfl> hmm... ubuntu default for screensaver does not ask password, i don't think
<sabdfl> the livecd should surely be picking up all the ubuntu defaults?
<sabdfl> mp3 support we don't have for patent reasons
<amu> no idea, I just booted the cd, didnt compared the packagebase, well i can't 
<amu> -> lock screen ... black xscreensaver 4.16 comes, with login warty, i press enter, nothing happen, typ foo nothing ... reboot  
<amu> I write everything together and send it to lamont ?  
<sabdfl> amu: yes please
<sabdfl> amu: is it possible to apt-get update a livecd while it's running, to see how the packages would change?
<amu> do not frighten, I fight with nearly the same problems, everything could be fixed, but it's time-intensively ...
<amu> just rebooted ( screensaver ) 
<nasdaq4088> when is ubuntu released?-i can't wait anymore
<amu> sorry, again a restart, gnome-pannel crashed
<maskie> nasdaq4088, around the 20th oct -- 
<nasdaq4088> ok thank you maskie
<amu> sabdfl: hmm my network doesnt work ;) could be a problem of my virtual-pc, i tried on other testmaschins, upgrading should be no problem .. unfortunately liveCD has problems with my desktop ( s-ata & raid ) takes 30min. to boot 
<sabdfl> amu: i'll try it here
<sabdfl> which is the download url?
<amu>  http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-20.iso
<amu> postfix could be also a problem, if booted it, replace postfix with another one
<amu> got it finally, apt-get update gives a error: warty/main Packages I got, E: Method http has died unexpectedly! 
<tuo2> sabdfl: nice nick
<tuo2> :)
<sabdfl> hi
<Kamion> fabbione: followed up to #2429 for you
<carlos> mdz: could be closed http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=267731 ?
<carlos> (I know it's offtopic, sorry)
<lamont> morning
<doko> good afternoon
<lamont> http://www.schneier.com/blog/
<lamont> coolness
<carlos> seb128: hey
<seb128> hello carlos 
<amu> hi lamont 
<lamont> morning amu
<lamont> reading your mail before I get dragged out the door to take my daughter to town
* lamont tries to figure out why the CD he built at home doesn't bring up the network on the same machine that -20 does.
<lamont> amu: did resolv.conf just have the two components in the search list domain, or did it have a leading 'warthogs'?
<lamont> amu: after I run make in SuSE, what all files do I need to toss over?  Looks like message and install/help.*
<lamont>  /bin/sh: line 1: help2txt: command not found
<lamont> hrm.
<lamont> must run.  bbiab
<mdz> lamont: ping?
<mdz> lamont: is there anything newer than alex's wartylive-v7?
<sabdfl> mdz: looks to me as though alex used the latest versions of the modules
<sabdfl> ipw.056 etc
<sabdfl> we are running 0.53... 
<sabdfl> the two versions use different firmware versions
<sabdfl> hence the glitch i referred to by email
<lamont> mdz: people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041015-20.iso is my latest, which still needs a bit of work.
<lamont> I don't think alex has uploaded anything newer than what went into rcc3
<lamont> where does help2txt come from, I wonder??
* lamont would like to know why CD burning tends to leave one with cdrecord uninterruptably-blocked on 'mempoo' in the kernel for an apparent eternity.
<lamont> I hate rebooting
<sivang> lamont : yeah. it sucks
<lamont> sivang: especially just to ulock a frigging drive
<lamont> I mean, reboot is one way to terminate a process with extreme prejudice, but, really.
<sivang> lamont : couldn't you kill the insulting proccess ?
<lamont>  uninterruptably-blocked on 'mempoo' in the kernel
<lamont> as soon as it unblocks, it'll get all the signals I've sent it.
<sivang> lamont : hmm, I guess I should have deduced from that that it's ignoring singlas or something..:)
<lamont> ps -lfp xxx, column 2 == 'D' is bad.
<lamont> in that it indicates waiting at uninterruptable priority.  You shouldn't really see those ever
<sivang> lamont : I thank you for another important thing explaind.
<lamont> sivang: the kernel is a fun place to code.  Really. :-)
* lamont used to write i/o drivers for a couple of non-linux OS's in a previous life.
* lamont reboots to get his cdrw back
<lamont_live> seb128, you around?
<seb128> lamont: yes
<lamont> any clues why gnome would go bugnutso on me?
<lamont> "detected another panel running, exiting"
<lamont> about 20 times, and then no panel
<seb128> killall gnome-panel
<seb128> but what have you done to get this situation ?
<lamont> reboot
<lamont> with about 16 million windows open.
<lamont> or maybe only 75.. :0)
<lamont> I solved it by moving .gnome and .gnome2 out of the way.
<seb128> do you still have the faulty dirs ? 
<seb128> could be useful to make some tests to find what went wrong
<Mithrandir> Kamion: 1659; you happy with me reassigning to you?
<ddaa> asw, so you are interested in gnu-arch and texmacs?
#ubuntu-devel 2004-10-28
<lamont> GAH  where is the / key on a german keyboard???
<azeem> shift+7
<lamont> maybe booting in german wasn't such a good idea...
<lamont> seb128: computer menu seems to be lacking some translations, maybe? (livecd)
<seb128> in which language ?
<seb128> computer menu has a very bad translation level since we changed it and almost nobody sent translations
<lamont> de_DE@euro
<seb128> the de one should be ok
<seb128> what string is missing ?
<lamont> and I kinda suspect that 'Terminal' isn't german either
<lamont> I see nothing but english in the Computer pulldown
<lamont> Desktop Prefs looks good
<seb128> I've not tested the livecd
<lamont> as does system config
<seb128> but for sure that works on a standard warty install
<seb128> nothing, are you sure ?
<lamont> seb128: not surprising, since I'm still playing with getting the damn thing more warty
<seb128> even the screenshot entry ?
<lamont> "Take Screenshot..."
<seb128> this is an upstream translation
<lamont> of course, OO.o startup bitches that the i18n system doesn't support locale "", so I'm thinking it may be something beyond gnome...
<lamont> and comes up english
<seb128> you have a problem with your environment
<lamont> yep
<seb128> I've a full german menu here, and the screenshot one is not a canonical change but an old upstream one
<seb128> dpkg -L gnome-panel-data | grep locale/de
<seb128>  ?
<lamont> locale bitches that it can't set LC_{CTYPE,MESSAGES,ALL} to the default locale: no such file
<lamont> and then dumps 'de_DE@euro' for all of them (except LC_ALL)
<seb128> weird
* lamont tries booting more properly
<mdz> sabdfl: so you're saying alex gathered everything from upstream rather than using the patches we have in our kernel source ready to go?
<doko> lamont: "Terminal" is german (at least that's the translation used in the Gnome menu)
<lamont> doko: ok
<doko> lamont: what exactly is the problem (with the Live-CD?)
<lamont> at this point, looking at various mostly minor things.
<lamont> getting the artwork to be ubuntu artwork is my current test nemesis
<lamont> after that, international language issues seem to be the more common ones
<lamont> is there an ubuntu-ship package that depends on everything we ship on the CD??
* lamont thinks there should be.
<doko> ok, please email me where I can help. I'm going to bed now.
<lamont> doko: ok.  I hope to have an ISO on people.ubuntu.com in a few hours (before you wake up, in other words()
<doko> fine, good night.
<calc> lamont: can dpkg handle a depends line that long?
<calc> lamont: a couple years ago when i tried to make a kde-i18n depend on ~ 50 packages it wouldn't work
<lamont> calc: so you split it up into pieces.. :)
<lamont> but probably not
<daniels> clearly your Binary lines weren't long enough
<daniels> should've added more binary packages.  lamont really likes it when you do that.
<lamont> daniels: remind me to teach you a few new pressure points next time we're in the same room......
<calc> daniels: heh
<daniels> lamont: hey man, I'm the one working on breaking it up :)
<daniels> lamont: last I checked, my xlibs/xfonts/xorg packages ran to about 57 source packages
<calc> daniels: is there a list of what still needs work on that part?
<daniels> now, if I managed to sensibly get a Binary line >= 1024 from that, I think I should be commended, not killed
<daniels> calc: yeah -- these were just preliminary packages.  i still need to beat on the upstream xlibs and do releases of all the modules, then we need to sit down and do a patch audit.
<daniels> (i managed to get 'massive vendor merge' on the x11r7 agenda, so this pain will dissipate.)
<calc> ok i am about 3/4 way through the arch tutorial then I can start trying to help out with that stuff
<daniels> fabio and I haven't actually got it into arch yet
<daniels> the split is that we have one source package for every upstream (fd.o) xlibs/apps package, one xfonts source package, and one 'xorg' source package that just contains the X server and Mesa, basically
<daniels> (plus a couple of other libraries where breaking the build out would require massive, painful, code changes, e.g. Xfont)
<daniels> oh, and a 'kdrive' source package
<calc> ok
<daniels> that's the split I originally did, and the one I still favour doing.  fabio has been exploring a different option, and his stuff is in XSF SVN, in the xorg module.
<daniels> we're getting together for a fortnight in denmark, in a fortnight
<daniels> and someone will dangle a bloodied scrap of meat, and whoever emerges the winner ...
<calc> heh
<calc> i think i've spent all the spare money i have until i get a job
<calc> hopefully i'll find one soon
<lamont> mdz: empty partial files are bad juju for apt...
<lamont> daniels: 2441 - lol
<sabdfl> mdz: just realised that i never sent the mail i have written on the new livecd
<sabdfl> yes, i think he's got the latest upstream module versions running on 2.6.7
<sabdfl> in general i think that's fine but afaics the firmware versions may have change
<sabdfl> d
<sabdfl> e.g. ipw2100 now requires firmware 1.3, and we are shipping 1.2
<sabdfl> personally, i think we should just go "whooooop" and put in the latest ipw2100, ipw2200 and fw, but i am only saying that because i know you'll decline the opportunity
<sabdfl> :-)
<sabdfl> the EDGE is for hoary, i know
* lamont burns what he hopes will be the rcc liveCD, home edition
<lamont> it must be emphasized that the live CD is a subset of the whole warty experience
<lamont> jdub: images I'm testing are the first set I sent you, btw.
<daniels> sabdfl: but will it bleed?
<sabdfl> no doubt, no doubt
<jdub> lamont: trying chocolate with the grub menu?
<jdub> n/m
<daniels> lamont: just randomly triaging
<mdz> sabdfl: I would rather he use our versions
<mdz> sabdfl: we've made bugfixes to them
<sabdfl> yes, of course :-)
<sabdfl> he needs to move the firmware into /lib/hotplug/firmware unless it also checks /usr/lib/hotplug/firmware
<sabdfl> he also may need to tag the firmware with the kernel version
<sabdfl> then i can test some more
<sabdfl> night, i'm toast, an workrave has been insistent for a while
<rublind> Can someone help me with my sound card problems?
<mirak_> hehe,,,,hi guys
<calc> sabdfl: does ipw2200 work good?
<calc> sabdfl: aiui everything but monitor mode is in now(?)
<jdub> how do you test monitor mode?
<calc> don't remember, i don't have working wifi under linux right now, i am waiting for the 2915abg to be released
<azeem> if it works with hostap, you can try kismet to see whether monito mode works perhaps
<lamont> jdub: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/dscn1377.jpg
<azeem> ipw2100 works with kismet, AFAIK
* jdub installs kismet
<azeem> I have 'source=hostap,eth1,hostapsource' in /etc/kismet/kismet.conf
<lamont> jdub: how does that screen look?
<lamont> you get 15 indexed colors, and about 640x480 to work in.  I don't think it'll get much better.
<jdub> so it looks like i'll have to put the arrows in and stuff
<lamont> you want the pcx?
<jdub> you sent it earlier
<lamont> not this one
<jdub> oh
<jdub> ok
<jdub> thanks
<lamont> that one was about 10x too big
<lamont> (it's really just warty-final-flat scaled to 640x480, and converted to 15 indexed colors)
<lamont> still need to decide what to do with the penguin on the f2 screen.
<lamont> getting dragged off to dinner, will publish the CD in a couple hours or so.
<jdub> thanks!
<mdz> calc: ipw2200 works perfectly for me
<calc> mdz: cool :)
<jdub> i can even connect to non-broadcast essids now ;)
<calc> i hope the 2915abg will work ok in my laptop being its not a centrino one
<calc> going to try to stick it in a amd64 laptop
* jdub gives it a kermit-style yayyayayayyy!
<azeem> btw, somebody referenced mjg59's ibm-does-not-want-me-to-change-wlan rant in reader's letter to a german computer magazine on an article about notebook upgrading
<azeem> wow, that was a long sentence. Even more so after three beers
<jdub> haha
<jdub> that's cool
<jdub> although
<jdub> some times i worry about german magazines
<azeem> oh?
<jdub> weird shit turning up in them
<azeem> heh
<jdub> someone mailed me a clipping of an article talking about GARNOME once
<jdub> some kind of flame about GARNOME being GNOME-specific or something
<jdub> "GNOMEn schiesskopf, Jeff Waugh..."
<azeem> hmm, I think I read a brief article about GARNOME in the above-mentioned magazine
<azeem> didn't flame you personally, though =)
* jdub was just imagining that quote ;)
<mjg59> Haha
<mjg59> I'm famous
<vorlon> s/famous/in&/ ;)
<mjg59> (And drunk. Unrelated.)
<azeem> well, I'm drunk. And about being famous, my 'the Ubuntu development model' blog entry will hit DWN early next week, so you better point out all its flaws
<jdub> mjg59: now that you're a star, you should be more careful about your help
<jdub> azeem: that was a great entry, btw
<azeem> (I didn't submit it, Joey must have picked it himself=)
<jdub> do you perve on dwn cvs or something, and ruin the fun?
<mjg59> I expected to be home 6 hours ago, and then got dragged to a club and bumped into some of my students
<mjg59> It's very distressing. You're not allowed to pull them.
<azeem> hehe
<azeem> jdub: I was bored or something
<mjg59> I need to find Dave Camp and make him fix the GtkFileChooser Beagle plugin
<lamont> what's the lang code for afriakans?
<lamont> daniels: you around?
<fabbione> morning guys
<lamont> fabbione: does the xf86 autodetection require logic outside of xserver-xfree86?  (That is, if I just have xresprobe and friends installed, does the right thing just happen)?
<fabbione> lamont: no. everything is optional
<fabbione> it always check if a detection tool exists before using it
<fabbione> otherwise it switches to internal default
<lamont> fabbione: the other direction.
<lamont> if it's installed, will it always use it?
<fabbione> lamont: if they are installed the magic should happen yes
<lamont> and what packages need to be there for magic to happen?
<lamont> xresprobe and?
<fabbione> discover1 mdetect laptop-detect xresprobe
<lamont> what if discover1 isn't there...?
<lamont> (liveCD has issues with discover1.)
<fabbione> lamont: it would ask for the video driver
<fabbione> but i was told that the livecd uses another detection system
<lamont> ok.  could be that the liveCD is doing a bunch of the autodetecting for X.
<lamont> yeah
<lamont> doesn't work on as much hardware as yours does, though
<fabbione> it doesn't use the same logic we do on plain installs
<lamont> I'll leave yours absent then
* lamont kicks off one more build, then syncs the template files over
<fabbione> lamont: what is the problem with discover1 on livecd?
<tseng> lamont: is it going to go around on its own and rebuild gtk-sharp and then get the mono apps?
<lamont> <!--   <packagereq>discover1</packagereq> problems as it tries to -->
<lamont> <!--   autodetect -->
<lamont> tseng: it should, but I've been swamped dealing with lvieCD issues.
<tseng> cool
<lamont> I'll kick it soon.
<lamont> and get ppc through the mcs build and others.
<fabbione> lamont: well that's problably because there was a init script in it or something.
<lamont> fabbione: probably
<fabbione> lamont: X uses only detect "video"
<lamont> tseng: if it looks like one package needs a kick, telling me the name (in email), is the best way to go
<tseng> ok
<fabbione> lamont: if you can you should give it a kick
<fabbione> lamont: (discover1)
<fabbione> and see what happens
<lamont> fabbione: step 1) rcc liveCD.  step 2) artwork from jdub,  step 3) add more packages, step 4) kick discover1
<fabbione> roger :-)
<fabbione> i need to test the last bug fixes on X
<lamont> hrm.. I also need to sync the latest kernel from Alex
* lamont wanders off for a few minutes
<fabbione> mdz: ping
<lamont> tseng: kicking gtk-sharp and monodoc
<lamont> tseng: any chance you built amd64 bits too?  powerpc?
<lamont> or just i386?
* vorlon twitches his nose at the mention of those packages in the context of portability.
<lamont> yeah, thought so.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:lamont] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs | please test http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041017-05.iso
<lamont> 687736832 bytes will fit on a CD, yes? :-)
<vorlon> lamont: well, more because of the Debian maintainer's current attitude towards portability concerns than due to the portability problems in mono itself. :)
<lamont> vorlon: what concerns? :-(
<vorlon> lamont: see the changelog for the last mono upload, where rather than providing minimal support for !pet archs, Zomb changed the Architecture line.
<fabbione> that's lazyness
<lamont> what do I have to kill to get my firefox bookmarks back?
<lamont> ah, import is your friend.
<lamont> vorlon: good thing they plan to keep mono out of testing, eh?
<lamont> unstable (interpreters): The Mono .NET development environment
<lamont> 1.0.2-1: i386 powerpc s390
<lamont> 1.0.1-1: alpha arm sparc
<lamont> : alpha not in arch list: i386 powerpc s390 -- skipping
<vorlon> lamont: yeah.  I did what I could to point them in the right direction, but if this is their attitude, they're on their own. :P
<lamont> yeah
<lamont> fixating
<lamont-live> LiveCD, home edition seems happuy
* lamont just finally noticed that cdrecord says 'Asuming -tao ...'
<lamont> needs another 's'
* lamont rips some 'warty live CD "home edition"' test CD's for some local folks
<lamont> although I suppose I should go into town and download the real test CD..
<fabbione> HMMMM
<lamont> fabbione: why are you HMMMMing?
<fabbione> i found another error in X autoconfig logic but that's easy to fix
<lamont> fabbione: yep.  right after warty
<fabbione> it's a suboptimal fix but it works fine
<fabbione> lamont: nope.. it will be in warty
<lamont> g'luck
<fabbione> it's part of a previous fix that mdz allowed to fix
<fabbione>   * Respect selection-method user value on reconfiguration.
<fabbione> it's like:
<fabbione> if ! reconfiguring; then
<fabbione>  blabla
<fabbione> fi
<fabbione> but it solves a bunch of interesting user horror experiences
<fabbione> like people that were running resolution XxY
<fabbione> and all of sudden they were bumped back to 640x480 after an upgrade
<lamont> oops. :-(
<fabbione> lamont: either today or during this week i will get my sparc up and running.
<fabbione> lamont: after the release do you mind to help me setting up the buildd for warty/hoary?
<fabbione> lamont: just tell me a time that fits you best and i will sleep/not sleep around it ;)
<lamont> fabbione: sure.  Once we release, I have a desparate need to finish my wife's van (before I really do get killed), and I need to finish writing up the "so you want to bootstrap an architecture" paper.
<lamont> basically step 1 is to use snapshot.debian.org, 2004-06-28 to build a then-sarge chroot, then build all of the build-depends and chroot components.  Then you build a new chroot using the built components, and build everything.
<lamont> at each step, preface the instructions with "do whatever it takes"
<lamont> if it took very much evil, then plan on a complete clean rebuild of everything at the end.
<lamont> then there's di, of course.
<fabbione> lamont: yup.. no rush about it. I need to get the hardware installed first ;)
<lamont> but once the port is complete, and everyone believes that it'll stay current, then we get to build the beast in the data center.
<fabbione> lamont: yes i know about the DC stuff
<fabbione> lamont: but i need to get used to admin a real buildd
<fabbione> and test everything locally
<lamont> new buildd coming for hoary anyway
<lamont> and buildd assumes that you have w-b access, which we don't outside the data center.
<fabbione> i know
<fabbione> but i can still use a local repo to do the first port
<lamont> yep.  I'm looking at mini-dinstall to see if that'll work with what I want, or if I get to grow my own.
<fabbione> lamont: http://debdev.fabbione.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/debarch/kelly?rev=1.4&view=log
<fabbione> that's almost a Debian pool
<lamont> heh
* sivang sivang downloading lamont's live cd for testing.
<Keybuk> jdub: I didn't realise the tomboy guy was unemployed
* sivang is also unemployed :) Jobs are not easily found these days, especially open source ones...(although Israel's high tech is recovering) 
<sivang> does anybody know if we already have an eclipse package?
<daniels> lamont: sup?
<sivang> he's probably asleep :)
<daniels> bong
<sivang> '
<sivang> '
<doko> lamont: awake?
<sivang> doko : probably still asleep
<doko> sivang: he wanted to leave the live-CD for testing, do you know where I can find it?
<sivang> doko : see channel's topic
<sivang> doko : http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041017-05.iso
<sivang> I got it at 98.9KB's , no rsync daemon running there though.
<sivang> Am going to test it when I come back..
<sivang> daniels : you are still uploading packages by a sponser? (reading through your blog)
<daniels> sivang: debian packages, yeah
<daniels> haven't been able to bootstrap a chroot yet
<sivang> daniels : nither do it, if you'd like to share some experience with me - I'd be glad 
<daniels> sivang: debootstrap sid ~/chroot/sid http://http.au.debian.org/debian/ /usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/sid, should do it
<nobse> hi
<nobse> I just realized that subversion is in main, but subversion-tools is in universe. They are both from the same source package.
<nobse> Is this intended?
<Kamion> Mithrandir: yes
<Kamion> lamont: I don't think ubuntu-ship is a good idea - it's not necessarily expected that people will install *all* of ship
<Kamion> nobse: the main/universe-from-same-source-package is normal and expected; whether subversion-tools should be in main is a different question ...
<Kamion> (I think it should - if we support subversion we should support subversion-tools)
<Kamion> nobse: please mail ubuntu-devel
<nobse> Kamion: alright
<Kamion> nobse: it is, however - er, how can I put this - VERY VERY LATE to be adding new packages to main :)
<Kamion> nobse: it'll probably be a hoary thing
<nobse> hehe, sure :)
<nobse> I just wondered...
<nobse> But I'll ask on -devel.
<amu> warty-live-20041017-5 does not start :(
<azeem> I get 'Kernel panic: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(9,0)'
<amu> linuxrc,splashes, static compiled bins in miniroot.gz are not there
<jdub> hi amu
<amu> hi jdub 
<amu> jdub: gnoppix mirror on linux.org.au is out of sync, Anand runs the server ? 
<jdub> he helps out yeah
<tseng> lamont: sorry, i have no {amd64,ppc} for testing anything.
<lamont> tseng: np
<lamont> just means I have to do them the hard way. :-)
<lamont> assuming that amd64 will even build the beast, that is... how is 64-bit support?
<tseng> hm well
<tseng> the latest devel branch i think is that one that has native 64
<tseng> the stable (1.0.1) used a slower runtime interpreter (mint)  on amd rather than -jit
<tseng> the mono packages depend appropriately on -jit | -mint
<lamont> amu: sigh
<lamont> tseng: so I won't even bother trying amd64, sound right?
<tseng> hey
<tseng> ive never tried it myself, one of the gentoo amd64 guys said it sucked
<tseng> on the converse, a few people have bugged me about not nhaving amd64 in there
<tseng> the source packages will be there, so they will be able to do the same thing I did
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:lamont] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs
<lamont> I may try bootstrapping it at the same time as ppc (otoh, ppc has debian 1.0.1-1 bits)
* lamont discovers the screwup with 20041017-05, rebuilds after a trivial fix in the build scripts.
<tseng> lamont: looks like there is another reverse dep on gtk-sharp and monodoc
<tseng> er, s/reverse/circular/g
<lamont> tseng: yeah, was working on that last night some.
<lamont> I'll clear it first thing in the morning.
<tseng> :)
<lamont> right now I need to run away for the day
<lamont> well, with a pass back by in about 20 minutes to upload 20041018-16 or such
<amu> lamont: servus ;) 
<plovs> /join #python
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:lamont] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs |  please test http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041018-16.iso
<lamont> where one change is not one change, but rather 3. :-(
* tseng wget
* lamont leaves
<tseng> cya.
<lamont> well, first another strong glance at the output of the CD build
<lamont> nothing leaps out at me.  later
<mdz> fabbione: pong
<fabbione> mdz: hey
<fabbione> you did catch me in a 3 minutes break
<fabbione> ;)
<fabbione> mdz: i found another error related to the 640x480 problem
<mdz> fabbione: I read a bit in scrollback
<fabbione> one block was not wrapped to be executed only on install 
<fabbione> and it was resetting some values across upgrades
<fabbione> it was noted by some users that "after upgrade -> reboot my X was at 640x480"
<fabbione> the fix is very simple
<mdz> well, since you have an X upload pending already, let's add it to that
<fabbione> if [ -z "$2" ] ; then
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> i did already
<fabbione> i was waiting blessing :-)
<mdz> that needs to be uploaded very soon
<fabbione> mdz: tomorrow morning or later today
<mdz> so that it can see a bit of testing before release
<fabbione> i had to wait for daniles and you
<fabbione> daniels reported that it is not possible to patch X for the color thing
<fabbione> anyway i need to go away now
<fabbione> i might take 10 minutes and upload later
<fabbione> all changes have been tested
<fabbione> cya
<pitti> mdz: Hiya! Recently you asked me to upload g-v-m to my unofficial repo (#2370). Do you plan to allow it into Warty?
<mdz> fabbione: ok
<mdz> pitti: yes, I would like to
<mdz> but it is getting quite late now
<mdz> I tested it a bit
<pitti> mdz: that's why I'm asking. The more we wait, the worse is uploading it
<pitti> mdz: it's not the most important thing, though, but it is no new code after all...
<mdz> it looks good
<mdz> go ahead and upload
<pitti> mdz: I can announce it again on -users/-devel and we can see 
<pitti> mdz: oh, okay. If it should cause problems, I can revert the patch
<mdz> right
<pitti> mdz: okay, I'll upload. Thanks.
<daniels> mdz: yes, not possible to do this sort of thing properly
<mdz> daniels: brilliant
* mdz hugs X
* sabdfl wonders what it feels like to ug an ageing porcupine
<Kamion> to ug?
<pitti> mdz: was anacron just forgotten to be included in the seeds, or is that deliberate?
<mdz> pitti: see the bug about it
<pitti> mdz: oh, thanks
<hornbeck> jdub: what is in multiverse?
<azeem> hornbeck: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/warty/multiverse/binary-i386/Packages.gz
<hornbeck> azeem: thanks
<pitti> Hi seb128! Nice Sunday evening!
<seb128> hello pitti :)
<seb128> thanks
<Keybuk> mdz: you still haven't actually provided any evidence of these so-called problems with it :)  it's always worked fine for me
<fabbione> seb128: what happened to my nice panel setting?
<seb128> what ?
<fabbione> i got the error about the trash applet
<fabbione> i answered to keep it
<fabbione> and all my nice little tiny icons just disappeared
<fabbione> i had a bunch of them on the panel
<seb128> "the error" ? which one .. ?
<seb128> I don't have any problem
<seb128> you lost your configuration ?
<fabbione> the one that says that there was an error opening the trash applet
<fabbione> and asking if i wanted to keep it or delete it
<fabbione> and basically all my panel settings are gone
<Keybuk> kill the panel
<seb128> killall gnome-panel
<fabbione> done
<fabbione> it's the same
<fabbione> they are gone
<seb128> hum, the icons were some launchers ?
<fabbione> seb128: yes
<fabbione> xterm, mozilla and a couple of few more
<fabbione> anyway.. not a big big deal
<seb128> weird
<fabbione> just curious if anybody saw this before
<seb128> afaik we never got a bug report about a such problem
<fabbione> i have /home on NFS if that makes a difference
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> than it must be a moon ray hitting my netcable
<fabbione> ;)
<fabbione> gotta go
<fabbione> later
<fabbione> thanks
<seb128> later
<seb128> np
<sabdfl> Kamion: to hug but not really mean it
<Keybuk> as apposed to an ugh, which is a hug with someone you find repulsive?
<mdz> or a hug rotated one character to the left
<sabdfl> mdz: that sort of thinking has already got me into enough trouble with the artwork, thank you
<sivang> hey, the artwork is __way__ cool. It's plain art, nomatter the reactions :)
<Keybuk> I still don't understand the severity of peoples reactions to it ... (a) it's nothing extraordinary, they're not wearing leather and brandishing whips and (b) you can change it!
<sivang> Keybuk : me nither. It's really overrecating 
<sivang> *neither
<Kamion> you can change lots of things, but we've still been concentrating really hard on sane defaults everywhere
<sivang> You imply that this is not a sane defaut?
<Kamion> I don't think it is, no. I've said this in more depth elsewhere, though.
<sivang> oh
<doko> I was once involved in a case at the university. for institutions/organizations it's the point that you _can_ install the "offending" background, you don't have to become actively involved in downloading it. For the community as a target the backgrounds are fine. (didn't sabdfl has a ubuntu-keybuk package for your special needs ;)
<sabdfl> ubuntu-keybuk?
<sabdfl> that the one with the leather and whips?
<doko> sabdfl: yeah, don't know if you can call it artwork
<sabdfl> just.... work :-)
<sivang> everything is art, it only depends on your prespective
<doko> :-)
<sabdfl> i'm interested to see tomorrow if the community feeling is that the new art is fine if it's there but not the default
<sivang> isn't that right, sabdfl ?
<sabdfl> or if the vocal types will insist that it be removed from the cd
<sabdfl> and why stop there... perhaps even the entire archive
<sabdfl> Kamion?
<Kamion> yep?
<sabdfl> ^?
<sivang> hey hey hey
<sivang> let's not get too scared by the vocals
<sivang> :)
<Kamion> personally, I'd have absolutely no problem with it being there but not the default
<sabdfl> well, i was thinking about it
<Kamion> dunno what others will think; I think *most* of the comments have been about the default
<sabdfl> if these images are unacceptable, then a web site that served these images would be filtered
<Kamion> but that'll probably be coloured by my own opinion
* sivang hates to think he would have to go and change each and every machine of his to the once before "default" artwork :)
<sabdfl> so, some of the -user guys would have an argument for filtering out the archive, because it "contains" offensive images
<sabdfl> i mean, the saudi arabian mega-proxy-filter couldn't selectively filter a package, right?
<sabdfl> but i suppos gpg is illegal there tooo....
<Kamion> they might already be filtering it out because of the existence of pornview in universe ;)
<sivang> hahah
<Kamion> (although I think the actual porn got taken out of that a while back - due to copyright violation, of all things)
<sabdfl> as opposed to porn in main?
* sabdfl chuckles
<sivang> there's a package named porn ?
<Kamion> no
<sivang> (I know pornview)
<sabdfl> yes, called ubuntu-artwork
<sabdfl> by some definitions, it seems
<sivang> :))))
<Kamion> sabdfl: oh BTW, changing the subject entirely, I got an ultra-alpha ultra-ugly graphical installer booting on Friday
* sabdfl wonders if he scratched webcollage from the screensaver list
<sabdfl> i think i did
<doko> what about one extra question on install: this package contains materials which may be "offending" depending on your point of view. do you want to remove this materiel from you harddisk and do not install newer versions of this material?" Of course the default answer should be no.
<sabdfl> can have some interesting consequences, that one
<sivang> sabdfl : why don't leave the artwork as it is, and let people change it? we could author an "anti ubuntu-porn artwork" guide :)
<sabdfl> Kamion: cool
<Kamion> webcollage> grovels through your web cache?
<sabdfl> no, it fetches random images from the web
<Keybuk> gah, Amaya really pisses me off with her continual rant about 'pornview' and how it degrades women!
<sabdfl> i think it does google searches for images based on random words
<Keybuk> (tangents briefly)
<Kamion> sivang: for some people it's now an issue of trust that upgrades aren't going to cause problems for them :(
<Kamion> sabdfl: yow
<Kamion> that's terrifying
<sabdfl> i've seen some nasties
<sabdfl> but the best was when i looked up and saw a pic of an astronaut mate of mine floating across the screen
<Kamion> bah, mdz left
<sabdfl> with her hair standing on end in zero-g
<sivang> ooo
<sabdfl> sivang: i think, for everyone's nerves, we're going to have to break the golden rule and force the desktop wallpaper to be the default one, even if it says "calendar"
<sabdfl> because, in fact, calendar was the default, and it saying so in the user's settings means the user didn't actually change the default
<sabdfl> just looked at it
<sivang> i see
<Keybuk> you can do that easily enough by changing the filename of the calendar symlink
<Keybuk> it'll go "gah! my WALLPAPER vanished" and revert to the default, fwict
<sivang> Kamion : ok, I see your point in it.
* lamont waves
<lamont> one of the questions wrt the live CD is: "What packages are part of the desktop seed, and not on the Live CD, but should be?"
<sivang> hey lamont
<shlomil> hi sivang 
<shlomil> lamont: what base module did you use ? 
<sivang> shlomil : base module?
<sivang> shlomil : what do you mean in base module ? :)
<shlomil> the liveCD uses Morphix , right? 
<sivang> yes
<lamont> so the gzip futex bug showed up in apt-extracttemplates?
<shlomil> Morphix is a modular distribution, one of the modules is defined as "basemod" 
<lamont> shlomil: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/*.xml
<sivang> lamont : morphix is used for the livecd right?
<lamont> yes.  based on morphix
<lamont> both the basemod and the mainmod are warty based
<shlomil> nice 
<amu> lamont: the problem is sysvinit, *noppix run their "own" init
<shlomil> lamont: did you write a script to parse the XML files and create the modules? or is it one of Morphix tools i'm not aware of? 
<lamont> morphix-mmaker is your friend
<lamont> amu: what problem?
<Keybuk> I've always wondered why livecds have to be specially made -- surely a compressed filesystem and a ramdisk is sufficient?
<amu> hwdetection, start system, run/stop programs, systemhalt there are modifications compared to a normal init  
<lamont> amu: system halt is easy.  just log off
<amu> ... and cdeject ? 
<lamont> Keybuk: there are other hooks for automatically doing things with the compressed chroot in strange and beautiful [?]  ways.
<pitti> Oh, hell^Whal 0.4 is out...
<lamont> eject
<lamont> eject /dev/hdc worked fine for me here
<lamont> that and the *noppix init fails to install (conflicts), and there is no sysvinit-morphix package.
<lamont> amu: of course, once you eject the CD, your days are numbered.
<sivang> lamont : btw you got over that uninterruptable thingy that you had to reboot for?
<shlomil> lamont: so where do you put the eject command ? 
<lamont> <lamont> Keybuk: there are other hooks for automatically doing things with the compressed chroot in strange and beautiful [?]  ways.
<lamont> shlomil: I think it's in /usr/bin
<lamont> yep.
<lamont> just not in the output of ls /usr/bin./
<lamont> until you run it.
<lamont> maybe.
<sivang> :)
<lamont> but eject is in both the base and warthog mods, so it is probably in /usr/bin even for ls
<shlomil> lamont: no, i ment, one of Morphix problems is it doesn't eject CD after shutdown .. 
<amu> lamont: you run a normal init ?  
<lamont> yep
<lamont> stock warty sysvinit/svsv-rc
<lamont> which is why 'reboot' doesn't work, but 'reboot -f' does.
<shlomil> really .. hmm 
<amu> lamont: well you _must_ run a knoppix-init ;)   
<lamont> amu: why?
* lamont wonders if it's "because you will be assimilated"..
<shlomil> lamont: knoppix hardware detection maybe > 
<lamont> we use that.  considering trying to bolt our own hardware detection in post-warty
<lamont> (there are 3 knoppix packages in the build)
<lamont> hwdata-knoppix_0.107-8_all.deb  usleep-knoppix_0.5-1_i386.deb
<lamont> hwsetup_1.0-14_i386.deb
<amu> init starts/stops programs, knoppix do it in a special way, if you cange it you get a seroiuse behavoir, some programs will not stop, some die, cdeject will not work, hwdetection will not work probably 
<lamont> amu: I'm just doing what the nice morphix guy told me to, using his templates.
<amu> lamont: this hwsetup will _NOT_ work with a normal init  
<lamont> amu: in other words, give me an existance proof
<shlomil> heh
<lamont> I know that morphix has solved some stuff in different ways than knoppix did, while still using those knoppix packages.
<amu> lamont: hwdetection will not work, test it, change a pci-id, in knoppix-hwdata, rerun and you'll see 
<amu> probably lspci informations are from the kernel 
<shlomil> lamont: oh, i see you created a bootsplash package.
<lamont> yep.
* shlomil wonders why Ubuntu itself doesn't have a bootsplash yet ...
<Keybuk> shlomil: delayed until hoary
<Keybuk> we've gone for an entirely userspace solution to it
<shlomil> oh, you mean , you don't want to patch the kernel  ?
<Keybuk> the bootsplash patch only works on i386, iirc.
<lamont> Keybuk: which means it's not a patch. :-)
<lamont> s/patch/real patch/
<shlomil> Keybuk: but that means you'll have some "lost" bootsplash seconds, until the kernel finishe doing it's stuff
<Keybuk> heh, it's under a second!
<Keybuk> you know when it says "Starting Ubuntu..." at the moment?
<shlomil> really .. hmm 
<Keybuk> that's when the kernel's finished and you're in the initrd
<Keybuk> all the stuff that takes time, like IDE or SCSI probing is done in initrd, remember
<shlomil> oh, isee 
<Keybuk> the main reason the kernel seems to take a second or two is just how slow it is to dump two or three pages of printk to the screen
* sivang is intrigged as to why people are so bothered with bootspalsh images :)
<Keybuk> sivang: it's a bit of pretty
* Keybuk is all for pretty
<Keybuk> that was going to have not-naked people on it as well
<Keybuk> imagine the outcry
* sivang is a console junky, hence his approach :)
<lamont> and the clueless end user is confused by all that gibberish on the screen
<sivang> that's right
<vorlon> So the userspace solution is still pending?
<lamont> vorlon: known, demonstrated, not ready for warty freeze
<lamont> freezes are such a bitch, you know.
<sivang> than again, you could direct all boot message to somewhere and priont "Please wait. System loading"
<shlomil> sivang: are you kidding ? some people love it and don't want to see anything else, besides, would you really prefer endless log line over the blonde chick ? 
<Keybuk> vorlon: yeah, main problem with having conference right before a release
<vorlon> conference?
<Keybuk> hoaryconf will be great, because it comes right at the point we *can* develop new stuff
<lamont> Keybuk: hell of a lot of coding was done at that conf.
<sivang> shlomil : ooo, I get my dose of the blond chick on the wallpaper believe me :)
<Keybuk> yeah, the two weeks in oxford we had in august
<Keybuk> lamont: you don't *want* coding that close to a release 
<vorlon> ah, the conference abutted your freeze? :)
<Keybuk> you want it at the start
* sivang would just love to see her in a more brighter light :)
<lamont> vorlon: the freeze was pushed out a week to accomodate the conf.. :-)
<lamont> Keybuk: very true/
<vorlon> heh. :)
<Keybuk> bug fixing is what you want, and that's not a good use of a conference; is better done in isolation
<vorlon> so where in the timeline does "merging all this yummy stuff back into Debian" fall? ;)
<Keybuk> we've sent most the yummy stuff back ?
<vorlon> ah, ok.
<mdz> Keybuk: hmm?
<mdz> we've sent bugfixes back, but all of the customisation stuff needs merging
<mdz> and the bugfixes that were sent but didn't get merged in Debian
<mdz> shouldn't take more than, oh, the first two months of the release cycle :-P
* vorlon grins
<Keybuk> heh, was there any reason we didn't send those back as well?
* vorlon waits for lamont's liveCD packages to make it into sid, that should be fun to play with. :-)
<mdz> good question; we should send the Ubuntu branding patches upstream
<mdz> :-P
<Keybuk> lol, wouldn't that be fun :p
<mdz> debuntu
<Keybuk> that'd put tbm into serious bitch mode *giggle*
<Keybuk> almost worth it
<sivang> mdz : what about security patches from review? 
<sivang> mdz : they also need be merged
<lamont> vorlon: they're just the morphix packages, see www.morphix.org/debian
<mdz> sivang: the security review involved almost entirely backports of patches from Debian or syncing of new versions from Debian
<mdz> it is just a matter of checking that everything has been merged
<sivang> mdz : ok
<pitti> mdz: hal 0.4 was just released, and I found a security related change in it
<pitti> mdz: http://freedesktop.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/hal/hal/hald/linux/net_class_device.c?rev=1.19&view=log
<pitti> mdz: we do not need that patch for our own purposes, so it's not overly critical
<pitti> mdz: the question is, shall we apply it anyway? Users might do custom stuff with hal
<pitti> mdz: the patch looks alright, but still it is damn near the release to change something
<mdz> pitti: so nothing is listening to the dbus messages currently?
<Keybuk> mdz: I can probably give you a good idea what the actual differences are with a tablecloth-trick (blame jdub for the name :p) ... try a warty/hoary jump and see what falls out
<seb128> mdz: perhaps we want #2345 fixed for warty ?
<mdz> Keybuk: try a *what*?
<pitti> mdz: well, the utopia packages don't care for the netlink stuff
<mdz> seb128: looks safe to me
<vorlon> mdz: off-topic, but while I have you ... :-)  Does the kernel-patch-uml package work with kernels newer than the ones currently suggested?
<pitti> mdz: but of course user programs _can_ attach to dbus and query these attributes from hal
<mdz> vorlon: perhaps, perhaps not
<seb128> mdz: ok, thanks
<pitti> mdz: it's not a matter of securing Ubuntu proper, but only securing possible user installed programs
<vorlon> Heh.  From a release standpoint, how should k-p-uml be handled?
<mdz> vorlon: honestly?
<mdz> it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to remove it from sarge
<mdz> upstream is fucked; UML hasn't worked properly on Debian for months
<vorlon> Well, I find that pretty persuasive.
<jdub> AHR!
#ubuntu-devel 2004-10-29
<pitti> Good night everybody
<daniels> mdz: not drink six beers at once? BRILLIANT!
<sivang> how do I install debugging symbols for gnome 
<sivang> ?
<chrisa> Any netinst isos for the rc?
<mjg59> Why the christ have we picked up Dick Morrel?
<daniels> dude, be thankful.
<jdub> yeah, ugh
<daniels> try on the following names: dan jacobson, john hendrickson
<mjg59> He's anti-GPL and he's a cock
<mjg59> Dan Jacobson is mad but harmless in comparison
<daniels> morrell is an idiot, yes
<mjg59> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&safe=off&threadm=slrn9nkfpp.g4a.mjg59%40vavatch.jesus.cam.ac.uk&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dmorrell%2Bgarrett%2Blinux%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26c2coff%3D1%26safe%3Doff%26selm%3Dslrn9nkfpp.g4a.mjg59%2540vavatch.jesus.cam.ac.uk%26rnum%3D1 - that was it
<mjg59> Fucking URLs. Hrngh.
<mjg59> Maybe I should IRC less when drunk.
<daniels> (fwiw, he took offence when I asked him to remain on-topic, and spent that 14 minutes ranting about who he was and why I couldn't afford to piss him off.  i just asked him to remain on-topic a couple of times, and directed him towards #offtopic.)
<jdub> Zindar: ah, erik :)
<jdub> ww
<mjg59> daniels: To be honest, I'm inclined to think life would be easier without him
* jdub calls the cops.
<mjg59> dickmorrel is not signal
<mjg59> BE SIGNAL
<jdub> BE THE SIGNAL!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mjg59] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs |  please test http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/warty-live-20041018-16.iso | BE THE SIGNAL
<mjg59> I feel this is important.
* vorlon is a left turn signal.
<daniels> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/18/1097951587553.html
<hornbeck> man, seven cars
<daniels> elmo: can you please let me know how many packages build-depend on: xlibs, xlibs-dev, xlibs-static-pic
<fabbione> morning guys
<fabbione> daniels: why do we need to know? ;)
<fabbione> daniels: in one way or another even the kernel build-dep on them :P
<daniels> heh
<daniels> fabbione: well, when we get the xorg stuff in, i'd like to start busting up build-deps
<daniels> i'd be happy for xlibs/xlibs-dev to not exist
<fabbione> daniels: i think we can create a meta package for it
<fabbione> that was my idea at least
<fabbione> for the beginning it would be acceptable
<fabbione> and give people a few weeks to do the transition
<fabbione> i want to kill Xfree86 in one shot
<fabbione> no double packages 
<daniels> yeah, dude, I already have a set of metapackages :)
<fabbione> no you have nothing :P
<daniels> i bootstrapped xlibs (with full debian packaging) on to my laptop yesterday
<daniels> ii  libx11-6                       6.2.1+cvs.200408040713-0ubuntu X Window System protocol client library
<daniels> only took about two hours -- some stuff is still a little broken due to the fact /usr/lib/X11 is no longer a symlink
<daniels> but yeah, it's all good otherwise
<fabbione> eheh
<fabbione> ok new X seems to be all good
<fabbione> daniels: but did you bootstrap each lib onm theirown?
<fabbione> or just xc/lib in one shot?
<daniels> fabbione: each on their own
<daniels> fabbione: started with x-common, then just ran check/build/install through all the packages
<fabbione> similar to the approach i used...
<fabbione> sounds like at least
<daniels> anyway, end result is that everything's all good, except for xterm
<daniels> it's probably the app-defaults link that's broken
<fabbione> daniels: i started drafting a plan for the 2 weeks
<fabbione> we have 2 fronts that we need to fight
<fabbione> one is the xresprobe/autoconfig stuff
<jdub> 1. Who will order the pizza?
<daniels> ME!
<jdub> 2. Will Daniel be allowed to sleep inside the house?
<fabbione> one is beating upstream with a cluebat and kill it into the many deb packages
<daniels> jdub: (hotel)
<daniels> fabbione: dude, you missed the confcall on Friday
<daniels> fabbione: despite almost sending me to sleep, I got useful stuff done on it
<fabbione> jdub: no my house isn't a house yet... it's a building site
<daniels> fabbione: i got 'big big vendor merge' on the agenda for x11r7
<fabbione> daniels: i don't care to talk with X.org "prime donne"
<daniels> heh, most of them aren't prima donnas
<fabbione> daniels: (first women)
<daniels> they just like to argue semantics for a long time
<daniels> but that aside, it was very useful, and yeah, so if we start collecting all our patches, making notes on them and stuff, we can empty our debian/patches into upstream
<jdub> pouring patches on the fire :)
<daniels> anyway, I have to run out the door now
<daniels> actually, ten minutes ago
<daniels> but nevermind
<daniels> i'll talk to you about this later
<daniels> unless you really want to call me ;)
<fabbione> daniels: no no.. i will have to suffer your ugly face for 2 weeks here :P
<fabbione> i don't really need to talk to you too ;)
<fabbione> mdz, jdub: i am ready to upload X
<fabbione> and linux-restricted modules to fix the nvidia-glx error
* fabbione waits for katie
<fabbione> oooook
<fabbione> X and linux-restricted modules are up
<daniels> fabbione: heh!
<fabbione> daniels: ?
<daniels> fabbione: your talking-to-me remark
<daniels> fabbione: just had to go into the travel agent here and finalise my tickets
<daniels> about to head back home
<fabbione> ahhh
<fabbione> eheh
<pitti> Good morning everybody! So quiet today here...
<pitti> Keybuk: I have a small packaging problem: hal 0.2.98 shipped a conffile, but hal 0.4 does not ship it any more; unfortunately dpkg does not delete the conffile on package upgrade, even if it is unmodified
<pitti> Keybuk: is there a recommended way to remove it in the maintainer scripts?
<Keybuk> dpkg should delete the conf file ?
<Keybuk> unless it was never registered with dpkg
<pitti> Why not, if it's unmodified?
<pitti> no, the old deb ships it and it was in debian/conffiles
<pitti> Since I don't want to change dpkg, is there a "best practice" how to handle this?
<pitti> Keybuk: I thought about providing a md5sum list and delete the file in the preinst if one md5sum matches
<pitti> Keybuk: similar to ucf
<Keybuk> I mean that dpkg *should* delete the conffile, so why isn't it?
<pitti> oh, I don't know
<pitti> I tried that out yesterday, with a modified conffile and an unmodified
<Keybuk> can you throw me both packages
<pitti> you already have hal 0.2.98
<Keybuk> yeah, but I need to uninstall/reinstall a bit so it's good to have the .deb standing by without having to hunt for it :p
<pitti> I send you a link to hal-0.4 when it's ready
<pitti> okay, I put the old deb to the same place
<pitti> Keybuk: the stuff is at http://www.piware.de/hal/
<pitti> Keybuk: for upgrading to hal 0.4.0 you need libhal-storage0 deb
<Keybuk> right
<pitti> Keybuk: the conffile in question is /etc/hal/device.d/fstab-update.hal
<pitti> Keybuk: the old hal installs it as example file, but I want to get rid of it (we have pmount)
<Keybuk> ahh, lftp, how we love thee ... mget *.deb :p
<Keybuk> so I install the single 0.2.98 deb, and upgrade by installing the others?
<jdub> argh
<jdub> forgot how loud my ibook was
<Keybuk> jdub: bong!
* jdub is doing a ppc install
<pitti> Keybuk: yes, but you need only libhal-storage
<pitti> Keybuk: not all the other debs
<pitti> Keybuk: the problem is that above conffile is not shipped by hal 0.4.0 any more, so it should disappear
<Keybuk> ok, well in 0.2.98 it's in the package and listed as a conffile
<pitti> and I guess you did not modify it
<Keybuk> just waiting for the ol' chroot to finish updating
<pitti> Hi carlos
<pitti> I finally managed to take a look at your application yesterday evening :-)
<carlos> pitti: hi
<carlos> pitti: I saw it :-), btw, the TODO was not a mark that says.. From here is not done it was just for that question
<pitti> carlos: I know
<pitti> carlos: but the other stuff was okay
<carlos> ok
<carlos> I have the other practical questions, I will try to send you all remaining things soon
<carlos> pitti: thanks
<pitti> Hi mvo_!
<mvo_> hi pitti 
<mvo_> hi to all others
<seb128> hello mvo_ 
<mvo_> hi seb128 
<Keybuk> seb128: is it me, or is gnome-terminal 2.8 a little late? :p
<seb128> ah ah
<seb128> just a bit late :)
<Keybuk> and 2.8.1 just after it
<Keybuk> amusing
<Keybuk> pitti: (best Mal voice) well now, ain't that just an oddness
<Keybuk> D000002: fork/exec /var/lib/dpkg/info/hal.postinst (dpkg: error processing hal (--install):
<Keybuk>  subprocess post-installation script killed by signal (Segmentation fault), core dumped
<Keybuk> Errors were encountered while processing:
<Keybuk>  hal
<pitti> Keybuk: just back from lunch - argh, what's that?
<Keybuk> oh, just another wonderful example of dpkg's amazing bug-free-ness
<pitti> Keybuk: odd, it works fine here; but this can hardly be a bug in the hal deb, can't it?
<Keybuk> pitti: try installing with: dpkg -D7777 -i ... :)
* pitti tries that and still looks at a loooooong scrolling
<pitti> D000020: deferred_configure `/etc/dbus-1/system.d/hal.conf' (= `/etc/dbus-1/system.d/hal.conf') useredited=-1 distedited=-1 what=2
<pitti> D000002: fork/exec /var/lib/dpkg/info/hal.postinst ( )
<pitti>  * Restarting system message bus...
<pitti>  * Stopping Hardware abstraction layer...                                                                                                                                     [ ok ] 
<pitti>  * Starting Hardware abstraction layer...                                
<pitti> works for me
<pitti> hmm
<mvo_> hi rburton 
<rburton> hi mvo_
<rburton> so i hear xfs in recent 2.6 kernels is broken
<Keybuk> weird
<Keybuk> rburton: works ok for me
<rburton> i'll probably ubuntufy my home desktop this week
<rburton> see if it passes the GirlFriend test
<pitti> rburton: you mean the new images?
<pitti> rburton: failed miserably for me
<rburton> i mean i heard reports of data corruption
<pitti> rburton: my gf: "Ugh, what's that?" and after seeing the splash "hey, this gets worse..."
<pitti> ah
<rburton> oh i see
<rburton> i told her about the images, she said she so
<rburton> doh
<pitti> is your gf able to do data corruption?
<rburton> well, now you mention that
<rburton> things do just break around her
<pitti> ah, so she is the ideal beta tester?
<pitti> I've got such a friend as well. Up to now he managed to break every Linux distro I gave him; he is totally frustrated by "this linux shit"
<Keybuk> pitti: I suspect this is just another example of dpkg going strange when debug is on
<Keybuk> lots of little memory leaks, and double-frees, and stuff
<pitti> Keybuk: can you at least reproduce the problem without debugging?
<pitti> Keybuk: i. e. the conffile is still present?
<Keybuk> yup, got an update log now
<jdub> rburton: your GF doesn't like it? what does vicky think?
<rburton> jdub: gf/wife/whatever ;)
<jdub> no way dude, i heard that slip!
* rburton has been caught out
<rburton> must... destory... evidence
* rburton sends Kill-O-Zap missiles to sydney
* lifeless puts out the mosquito net
<pitti> rburton: don't forget to send them to the host which stores the irc logs :-)
<Keybuk> D000200: oldconffsetflags `/etc/hal/device.d/fstab-update.hal' namenode 0x827d97c flags 4
<Keybuk> bleh, well it knows it's only in the old package and now in the new
<sabdfl> mdz: around?
<daniels> sabdfl: 'morning
<sabdfl> hey daniels
<daniels> rburton: if you don't have it already, you must get dj platurn -- 'so this is de la heaven'. mix cd if just de la songs and samples.  sensational.
<daniels> sabdfl: so, community council is in ... three and a half hours, yeah?
<daniels> sabdfl: (missed one meeting because someone said UTC when they said Europe/London)
<sabdfl> community council is tuesdays, 1600 UTC
<daniels> well, the artwork meeting
<sabdfl> this next one is a general community meeting, in 90 minutes
<Keybuk> though this tuesday is tech-board
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> anybody have an ipw2100 handy for testing?
<rburton> can anyone sit in on the meetings?
<rburton> daniels: oh, cool
<Keybuk> reminds me, must beat up Jeff to make an .ics of HoaryReleaseSchedule when it's final
<Keybuk> rburton: sure.
<daniels> sabdfl: ah right
<daniels> ... ninety minutes? fair cop
<fabbione> daniels: debian/patches/004_*
<fabbione> daniels: how much do we need out of it?
<daniels> fabbione: last I checked, all of it
<fabbione> -          MANDEFS = AppLoadDefs FileManDefs LibManDefs MiscManDefs DriverManDefs ProjectManDefs $(XORGMANDEFS) $(VENDORMANDEFS)
<fabbione> +          MANDEFS = AppLoadDefs ManDefs SyscallManDefs LibManDefs DriverManDefs FileManDefs GameManDefs MiscManDefs AdmManDefs ProjectManDefs $(XOR
<fabbione> GMANDEFS) $(VENDORMANDEFS)
<fabbione> this is the only line that doesn't really "merge"
<fabbione> should i just pristine copy it from xfree86?
<daniels> what's -, what's +?
<fabbione> daniels: that's what it is in 004_
<fabbione> xorg has a different default MANDEFS 
<daniels> xfree86, or xorg?
<daniels> ah ok
<fabbione> 3 way diff :-)
<fabbione> daniels: i am going to grab some food
<daniels> ok
<daniels> when you get back, let me know what we're starting with in xorg and where we need to go
<thom> daniels: acpi-support doesn't do suspend/resume, so...
<thom> oh, and acpi-support-x40 needs to rmmod ipw2?00 before suspend
<daniels> thom: oh, right.  point.
<daniels> thom: and, uhm, that bong was apparently fixed in 2.6.8
<daniels> (centrino wireless)
<thom> daniels: well, i have to have it with the 2.6.8.1-3-15 kernel
<thom> otherwise i need to powercycle my machine everytime it comes out of suspend
<thom> and 1940 is pbbuttonsd foo
<thom> not acpi-support
<seb128_> hello thom 
<thom> heyhey seb
<plovs_work> I am writing a kernel-howto for the wiki, is grub default or should i mention lilo as well?
<thom> grub default
<plovs_work> thom, ok
<daniels> thom: bongtastic.  you should've got an nm.
<sabdfl> pitti: pen drive is still failing to automount :-/
<pitti> sabdfl: but it worked for the version you downloaded manually? odd, this is the very version I uploaded recently
<sabdfl> strange, but true
<sabdfl> hoary problem :-)
<pitti> sabdfl: does it work sometimes and sometimes not?
* sabdfl tests again
<sabdfl> not yet
<sabdfl> usb 4-4: new high speed USB device using address 4
<sabdfl> scsi2 : SCSI emulation for USB Mass Storage devices
<sabdfl>   Vendor:           Model: Pen Drive 2.0     Rev: 1.13
<sabdfl>   Type:   Direct-Access                      ANSI SCSI revision: 02
<sabdfl> SCSI device sda: 253952 512-byte hdwr sectors (130 MB)
<sabdfl> sda: Write Protect is off
<sabdfl> sda: Mode Sense: 03 00 00 00
<sabdfl> sda: assuming drive cache: write through
<sabdfl>  /dev/scsi/host2/bus0/target0/lun0: p1
<sabdfl> Attached scsi removable disk sda at scsi2, channel 0, id 0, lun 0
<sabdfl> USB Mass Storage device found at 4
<sabdfl> but it doesn't show up under /media/
<pitti> sabdfl: looks good
<pitti> sabdfl: can you please do 'lshal > lshal.txt' and send me the result?
<sabdfl> pitti: martin.pitt@can...?
<pitti> sabdfl: yes
<sabdfl> on its way
<sabdfl> let me know if it didn't work i was experimenting with piping straight to mutt
<pitti> sabdfl: got it
<pitti> sabdfl: hmm, /dev/sda* is not contained in the lshal
<sabdfl> great, thanks
<sabdfl> why not?
<pitti> sabdfl: don't know, that's the bug, I suppose
<sabdfl> where could i look or check?
<pitti> sabdfl: if you have a minute?
<sabdfl> sure
<pitti> please do sudo killall hald
<daniels> sabdfl: you can also pass -a to attach stuff
<pitti> sabdfl: then remove the pendrive
<daniels> sabdfl: e.g. mutt -s foo -a ~/tmp/bar baz@quux.org
<pitti> sabdfl: sudo hald --verbose=yes --daemon=no --drop-privileges
<sabdfl> daniels: yes, i was trying to bypass the file and pipe it straight to mutt, thusly:
<pitti> sabdfl: if the log flood stops, press enter a few times (to generate some empty lines)
<sabdfl> lshal | mutt -s "foo bar" email@sfsdf.com
<daniels> sabdfl: ah, cool :)
<pitti> sabdfl: then plug in the beast and watch what happens
<pitti> sabdfl: I'd be interested in the cut& paste of the debug stuff after the plugin
<sabdfl> ALL of it?
<sabdfl> and it just popped up.
<pitti> sabdfl: what, the device got mounted?
<sabdfl> mounted and the window popped up correctly
<pitti> sabdfl: re ALL: only the stuff after plugging in the device (that's the reason for the empty lines)
<pitti> sabdfl: so, a heisenbug?
<sabdfl> maybe i hadn't rebooted since the update?
<pitti> sabdfl: might be
<pitti> sabdfl: since when your session runs?
<sabdfl> let me reboot now and see if it's really working properly
<sabdfl> how do i tell?
<pitti> uptime shows the time since last reboot
<pitti> last|head shows the recent logins
* sivang back
<sivang> sabdfl : the data center has PowerEdge machines?
<thom> ROCK
<thom> sivang: yeah
<sabdfl> sivang: i think we have a bit of everything in there now
<thom> i have working NetworkManager foo
<sabdfl> thom: cool, what was the trick?
<thom> apart from the fact they try to use the ESSID as a key and haven't dealt with the fact that essids can have spaces in
<thom> sabdfl: writing most of the debian backend over the weekend :-)
<sabdfl> most excellent
<sivang> thom : what else is there? :) Is it PowerEdge 2800 (glancing on it ad dell's )
<thom> which was entertaining since i was at my parents and they don't have wireless
<daniels> thom: awesome! nice one
<thom> sivang: poweredge, hp dl380s, ibm x345 and bigger
<daniels> and g5 xserves
<sivang> thom : wow
<thom> yeah
<thom> and some hp itaniums at some point, i guess
<daniels> does level3 know about the itaniums?
<sivang> thom : these are also Xeon based? or are they RISCiy ? :)
<daniels> they'll need to double their air conditioning capacity
<sivang> all of them are buildds ? I reckon the g5 is for building PPC stuff right?
<thom> daniels: compared to the xserves they're probably trivial
<daniels> thom: really?
<thom> sivang: the three g5s, 3 dual opterons, and 6 dual xeons are buildds
<thom> three of the itaniums will be too
<daniels> thom: i was under the impression they were space heaters, and the desktop g5s i've seen have run quite cool
<thom> daniels: the xserves don't have fan/thermal support yet
<thom> they run at full whack all the time
<daniels> thom: oh dear.
<thom> yeah
<daniels> does this explain your need to evacuate the house during testing?
<thom> yes
<daniels> good god.
<Kamion> hm, I thought thermal support did exist now
<sivang> what's used for web serving and archive ?
<thom> Kamion: maybe, but it's certainly not on the buildds yet
<elmo> the PEs are 2650's
<thom> hey elmo
<daniels> elmo: 'morning
<elmo> hey thom, daniels
<elmo> daniels: Itanium's really aren't that bad
<sivang> thom : you were fixing the network-admin crash stuff?
<thom> sivang: no
<pitti> sivang: does it _still_ crash?
<thom> NetworkManager
<pitti> sivang: this shouldn't happen any more with the latest gnome-system-tools
<daniels> hm, I think we need some g5 xserves at trinity
<thom> sivang: http://people.redhat.com/dcbw/NetworkManager/index.html
<daniels> the server room (which has quite a few machines) was in a broom closet.  during summer, you'd just pick which services were needed (no labs at lincoln square, so there goes its nfs and pxe servers ...)
<sivang> pitti : lemme check that now
<Mithrandir> daniels: the opterons doesn't run too hot either.
<daniels> yeah
<sivang> pitti : shoot me up the bug#
<sivang> thom : thanks. So that's the name for the little thingy on the panel..
<thom> that and the bitching huge daemon underneath it, too
<pitti> sivang: you already helped me to reproduce it, don't remember any more?
<sivang> haha
<pitti> sivang: #2177
<sivang> pitti : ah no :)
* sivang needs a shorterm memory fix
<daniels> sivang: at that price, I'll take two
<pitti> sivang: boot memtest-human
<sivang> I'm afraid it's gonna heat up too much :)
<sivang> with memtest
<pitti> well, you can't do anything for a few hours :-)
<sivang> thom : how do I add it to my panel? I have to apt-get install network-manager first?
<thom> i'll need to set up the apt repo first
<thom> and it's still very flaky right now
<sivang> pitti : yes, I won't be able to..unless memtest be rewritten to support time sharing :)
<sivang> thom : well, just tell me where to get the .deb file, and no, I don't mind teashing my system in favor of testing some bleeding edge. (I know I might bleed heh)
<thom> sivang: when i have it working right, i will
<sivang> thom : thanks.
<sivang> pitti : when I run network-admin from console, and I have already enabled my root account - trying to delete an interface just make it reappear the next time I fire up network-admin
<pitti> sivang: can you please file a bug?
<lamont> moo
<pitti> lamont: bark
* pitti enjoys making and listening to animal noises :-)
<lamont> heh
<pitti> lamont: Good morning!
<lamont> hrm.. so how many times to we repeat '7' when counting the bugs, I wonder....
<mjg59> Latest ibm-acpi lets you make LEDs flash
<daniels> the atheros does the LED stuff on its own
<daniels> actually, all my LEDs work just fine with the stock kernel
<Keybuk> daniels: you can soft-control it if you like
<Keybuk> and it has a flash-on-traffic mode as well
<mjg59> daniels: It seems like the wireless LED isn't under software control
<mjg59> You need to wave lines on the mini-PCI slot
<mjg59> But I can make my power light flash
<Keybuk> "hardware control" and "atheros" being somewhat a contradiction in terms
<daniels> mjg59: oooer
<daniels> Keybuk: heh
<daniels> Keybuk: yeah, mine's in flash-on-traffic as per default
<Keybuk> that just irritated me on the HP, the LED's a bright blue one and it really catches your eye :p
<daniels> there's a solution to that ...
<Keybuk> tap-tap-tap*OOH TRAFFIC*tap-tap*OOH TRAFFIC* etc.
<rburton> haha
<rburton> Keybuk: masking tape
<rburton> Keybuk: or better yet, someone here has a blue led fetish and will buy it from you if you can get it out
<daniels> my green LED is very unintrusive
<fabbione> HaveLib64 Yes or No for x86_64 ?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: ^^
<daniels> no
<daniels> because there is on /lib64
<daniels> (iirc)
<fabbione> can you see comments on debian/patches/600_amd64_support.diff
<fabbione> ?
<fabbione> (xfree86)
<daniels> AMD64 is not a "bi-width" architecture in Debian at present; instead it is
<daniels> a pure 64-bit environment, so do not define "HaveLib64" as "YES".
<fabbione> daniels: there is also that AMD64/x86_64 renaming that i am not completely sure about
<daniels> *just opened it up then, and it seems to agree with what I think)
<daniels> yeah, that's pretty bong, but I think upstream's right
<fabbione> upstream has AMD64
<daniels> bongtastic
<daniels> i'll defer to mithrandir on this one
<Mithrandir> what does HaveLib64 mean?
<fabbione> # if defined (AMD64Architecture) || defined (s390xArchitecture) || defined (Ppc64Architecture)
<Mithrandir> we have a /lib64, but it's a symlink to /lib
<fabbione> Mithrandir: it means: stick the lib in /usr/lib64 
<fabbione> instead of /usr/lib
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> so it's NO
<fabbione> thanks :-)
<Mithrandir> yeah, you should never reference lib64 (except if you're ld)
<fabbione> i guess that will be the same for PPC64
<fabbione> the only one that requires YES is s390
<fabbione> so we are all happy :-)
<daniels> huzzah
<fabbione> this night i will dream about dbs-edit-patch :-)
<fabbione> daniels: not too bad.. already 1500 lines of patches just for xc/config/ 
<daniels> mmm
<fabbione> we only miss 298500 lines to check :P
<daniels> ehm
<daniels> all of the stolen from HEAD stuff is slightly lower-priority
<Mithrandir> fabbione: so you will love me when I start whining about multiarch?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: oh yes.. 
<fabbione> i can give you all the a**l love you want :P
<Mithrandir> ;)
<fabbione> Mithrandir: otherwise you can start whining about it in februrary
<fabbione> you will have almost 16 days of X all for yourself :)
<mjg59> Mm. Multiarch.
<Mithrandir> fabbione: I need to talk to matt about it, I think we want it for ubuntu, but else, it goes in my free time, which there's not too much of atm. :/
<sivang> pitti : is it ok for network-admin to ask my _root_ password when executed from terminal as the regular user?
<pitti> no
<pitti> it should be _your_ password
<sivang> pitti : I have enabled the root account
<pitti> sivang: hmm, but still it uses gksudo...
<sivang> pitti : yes but it asks for my root password for some strange reason.
<pitti> what did you enter exactly?
<Keybuk> no, that's right -- network-admin asks for *root*'s password
<Keybuk> all of g-s-t do
* pitti is confused
<sivang> pitti : Well, I fired up a gnome-termina.
<Keybuk> we get around that by putting "gksudo" into the launcher so they think they're being run as root, so don't ask for a password
<Keybuk> sivang: sudo network-admin
<pitti> Objection, if I start network-admin from the Menu, it asks me for _my_ password
<Keybuk> or just use the launcher
<sivang> pitti : yes, because it uses gksudo
<Keybuk> pitti: yes, because the *launcher* contains "gksudo"
<pitti> ah
<pitti> but I saw the gksudo integrated into the C source somewhere...
<Keybuk> not in g-s-t
<pitti> probably
<Keybuk> that was gnome-cups-manager, wasn't it?
<pitti> I hacked in so many programs, I probably mixed that up
<pitti> could very well be
<pitti> well, but I think this is not a critical bug
<pitti> sivang: still, can you please file it in bz? it should be fixed for Hoary, should be relatively easy
<sivang> strange.
<sivang> yes I assume so, but I can't reproduce it anymore..
<pitti> sivang: I can
<sivang> pitti : I mean for the part where it doesn't delete the interface you try to delete.
<sivang> pitti : not for the missing gksudo thingy
<pitti> ah, that one
* sivang notes he might have clicked the "cancel" button instead of "ok". it works ok now. Appoligies sent to network-admin
<pitti> Bug report: n-a does not apply my changes if I click the Cancel button :-P
<sivang> :))
<sivang> pitti : you have and idea why that code has so _few_ remarks? I mean, HACKING tells you about the connection between the frontend and backend, but that's about it :)
<sivang> remarks = comments
<pitti> maybe the fundamental programmer paradigma:
<pitti> "It was hard to write, it should be hard to read"
* pitti has to relogin to test a new shiny g-v-m
<Keybuk> actually, bug-report n-a doesn't follow GNOME HIG
* thom has an "oh shit" moment with NM
<Keybuk> thom: hrm?
<thom> Keybuk: it stores network details in gconf
<thom> with the essid as the key
<thom> essids can have spaces
<Keybuk> indeed they can
<daniels> bongtasmic
<thom> gconf keys can't
<sivang> thom : I hope your relationship with it won't go where you had already gone with mozilla ;)
<Keybuk> they can have any utf-8 or non-NULL $charset character too
<mjg59> essids can?
<Keybuk> I suspect they can have \0 in them as well, theoretically
<daniels> mjg59: yes
<mjg59> Are they defined as utf-8, then?
<Keybuk> but a lot of code (including iwlib) kinda assumes they don't
<thom> mjg59: my essid is "Bitch Whore"
<sivang> Keybuk : is there anything they *can't* have?
<Keybuk> mjg59: up to 32-octets specified as octets plus length
<mjg59> thom: Oh, sure, spaces are good :)
<thom> (don't ask why, hysterical raisins)
<mjg59> thom: Have a second gconf key that defines the location of any spaces
<Keybuk> sivang: well, there seems to be a general assumption that \0 is bad
<Keybuk> mjg59: aren't gconf keys ASCII only?
* sivang preferred to stay away when thom and mozilla had their fights here. It wasn't a pretty sight :)
<Keybuk> "Cyber Caf" is a valid ESSID
<mjg59> Keybuk: Shit, I hope not
<mjg59> I'm fairly sure you can store utf-8
<Keybuk> mjg59: sure, in the *value* ... but what about the key?
<mjg59> Well, you /can/ store utf-8, because dasher does it. Whether or not it's valid is a separate issue, I guess :)
<sivang> Keybuk : well, you should allocate space before hand and make sure you know the length I guess instead of realying on someone putting \0 to end a buffer.
<mjg59> Oh, I see what you mean
<mjg59> Hrm
<daniels> thom: heh
<Keybuk> sivang: yeah, the actual packet is length + octets
<daniels> how about if you had essid0/wep0, essid1/wep1, or whatever, i nseparate keys
<sivang> Keybuk : oh, I overlooked that when you mentioned that few lines ago
<daniels> (kconfig is worse in this regard: your key can't have = in it)
<thom> the gconf manual says: "Characters in a path should be alphanumeric or underscore"
<thom> but doesn't appear to define charset
<Keybuk> heh, assume ASCII :)
<thom> yeah
<thom> aaargh, IEEE web pages use blink
<thom> or a blinking jpeg
<thom> *yar*
<daniels> thom: !!
* sivang going down to switch router's power source.
<amu> moind
<mjg59> Much development in acpi-land this week
<mjg59> If I produce kernels this evening, can people test them?
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> kornbluth.freenode.net
<thom> mjg59: yep
<thom> mjg59: include inotify as well, for much beagle love? :-)
<daniels> does anyone here use nvidia on amd64?
* daniels pokes thom in the eye.
<thom> fuck no
<Keybuk> inotify rocks
<thom> Keybuk: yeah. dbus hates me right now though, otherwise i'd be basking in the glow of my indexed home directory
<jdub> mjg59: you adding that crackrock DSDT-on-initrd patch?
<bob2_> this thomboy thing looks cool
<bob2_> I actually get to have thom sort and index all my notes?
<tseng> hah thomboy.
<bob2_> rock!
<thom> tomboy is ++good
<thom> bob2_: i'll give you a guided tour too
<bob2_> hahahaha
<Keybuk> rofl @ thomboy
<thom> ... "and these are your porn links, and this is your suckful laptop ... "
<thom> "and this here is the url to buy the X40 you know you want"
<bob2_> don't tempt me, it was bad enough when a friend told me I could get 10% off
<jdub> we should totally have the X40 on our 'book list' on the website
<jdub> "this is what the developers use"
<daniels> heh
<jdub> "support monoculture!"
<daniels> thom: that's what Jim wanted me for
<bob2_> especially now I see it supports suspend-to-ram
<bob2_> which00:05 < bob2_> hm, apache segfaults when I hit a php page
<bob2_> 00:05 < elmo> bob2: it's trying to tell you something - take the hint ;-)
<daniels> 'someone I know is using the nVidia driver on AMD64 on Ubuntu and it's arse'
<bob2_> oops
<bob2_> and has a fucking proper middle mouse button
<daniels> thom: dude, the tour would totally kick arse
<seb128> jdub,mdz: I need an approval for #1221 #2357 and #2477 ...
<bob2_> so I don't have to use a key on my keyboard tha I hit randomly
<daniels> thom: 'thom, what directory am I looking at?'
<bob2_> "thom, what's the name of the building in this picture?"
<thom> daniels: oh lovely
<thom> daniels: i think Mithrandir has one
<daniels> Mithrandir: you win!  any luck with the pos binary driver?
<bob2_> Mithrandir: btw, your p150 works as usb-storage, right?
<Mithrandir> bob2_: yes.
<daniels> Mithrandir: have you used the nvidia driver at all?
<Mithrandir> daniels: worked when I tested it, yes.
<Mithrandir> on an amd64 system
<Mithrandir> with a tnt2 ultra card
<daniels> no mysterious segfaults?
<Mithrandir> none I saw, no, but I really just used it enough to get the package working.
<bob2_> Mithrandir: hm, how happy are you with it?
<bob2_> I'm looking at cameras, but I know jack about them
<Mithrandir> bob2_: unlike most other digital cameras, it feels like a real camera, speed-wise.
<bob2_> and the p150 seems to be getting quite good reviews
<Mithrandir> it's a bit too hard on the image enhancement/noise reduction part, which means you lose some details, but I'm willing to live with that.
<bob2_> when do you notice the loss of detail? 800x600 on a crt or 1600x1200 and a magnifying glass?
<Mithrandir> just a sec, I'll pull some pics off the camera
<bob2_> ah, thanks
<Mithrandir> bob2_: http://raw.no/tmp/dsc00071.jpg ~3.2MB, max resolution.
<Mithrandir> I can go outside and take some pictures of trees and leaves, you'll probably see it better there.
<bob2_> hmm, I see
<bob2_> is that a bloody x40?
<Mithrandir> no, r32.
<bob2_> ah, good ;)
<bob2_> the keys seems to have a bluish tinge
<Mithrandir> they're well-worn so they reflect a bit of light.
<bob2_> ah
<Mithrandir> the keyboard really is a bit bluish in this light.
<Mithrandir> but give me five minutes and I'll find you some trees. :)
<bob2_> heh, I'm just not sure where I should look for loss of detail :)
<Mithrandir> http://raw.no/tmp/dsc00076.jpg ; you'll see it a bit if you look at the leaves.
<Mithrandir> but again, it's not really a big deal; the camera is the same size as the ixus and is just as good quality-wise and a whole lot faster.
<Mithrandir> I recommend it a lot
<bob2_> hm, that's not too bad
<Kamion> elmo: if you want to kill daily-installer-*, now's a good time
<elmo> kill on the buildds, or ?
<sivang> Mithrandir : hey I saw my nick on the photo :)
<sivang> Mithrandir : do you have any photos of youerself?
<bob2_> Mithrandir: thanks for that, now I'll have to go play with one and then justify the purchase :)
<Mithrandir> sivang: http://planet.debian.org/heads/tollef.png is the one I have on planet debian
<Keybuk> heh, that was from Mlaga iirc.
<Mithrandir> yeah, I think so.  it was you who made it, I think?
<Keybuk> yup
<bob2_> ph33r.
<fabbione> daniels: do you have any hard feeling for ProjectManSuffix?
<sivang> pitti : are you familiar with dnsmasq ?
<sivang> opos his not here , anybody else knows what I'm talking about?
<pitti> sivang: no idea
<sivang> pitti : It's a nice small DNS hack which provides basic DHCP services to an internal LAN, as well as DNS caching.
<sivang> pitti : but only some of my machines on the internal lan can be accessed using their hostname..I couldn't find a way to make those who aren't to be recognized besides their IP address.
<lamont> Mithrandir: did the patch for warty#2495 ever get pushed up to debian?
<Mithrandir> evidently not; I don't remember if I did or not.
<pitti> mdz: Morning :-)
<mdz> morning
<pitti> mdz: you missed the funny flame^Wdiscussion
<mdz> I know, I couldn't spare the sleep
<mdz> reading it now
<pitti> mdz: well, I don't think you missed sth truly critical :-)
<alextreme> gday
<seb128> mdz: hello
<mdz> seb128: hi
<seb128> mdz: need some approvals: #1221 #2357 and #2477
<mdz> seb128: annotated the bugs
<seb128> thanks
<lucas_> I'm trying to install Ubuntu from a old Preview CD. During the "load installer components from CD-ROM part", I get the following error in the 4th console :
<lucas_> "anna" process says "grep: /cdrom/dists/stable/Release : Not a directory
<lucas_> is this problem known ?
<mdz> lucas_: this is not a support channel, /join #ubuntu
<seb128> mdz: are we supposed to get a gnome2-user-guide modified for warty before the release ? IIRC some guys were working on it. If not I would like to upload 2.8.1 (we have 2.8.0) which add the documentation about desktop sharing with vino
<mdz> seb128: please go ahead with 2.8.1; we can always change it
<seb128> ok
<sivang> seb128 : I am working on it
<sivang> seb128 : I have trouble reviewing it with yelp,
<seb128> sivang: how long before getting it ready to upload ?
<sivang> seb128 : lemme estimate
<sivang> seb128 : thought : we could always provide an update after release, right?
<sabdfl> jdub: around still?
<thom> sabdfl: he went to bed ages ago
<sabdfl> ok
<seb128> sivang: more useful before the release :)
<mjg59> Any volunteers for acpi testing?
<mjg59> I need someone with a machine that currently works, and someone with one that doesn't
<Keybuk> testing what, in particular?
<thom> mjg59: my x40 is available
* Keybuk is happy to slaughter his laptop at your expense :)
<thom> on the understanding that it's available to me again afterwards ;-)
<Keybuk> thom: dude, it's an X40 ... you are available to *it*, not the other way around
<mjg59> Keybuk: People have found a couple of reasons for resume not working 
<thom> Keybuk: chuckle
<Keybuk> sure, I'll have a test
<sivang> seb128 : with yelp crashing on me here and then :) and well, taking in consideration I've got about 70% more to go , I'd say about 4-5 hours..:(
<seb128> sivang: ok, no problem
<Keybuk> seb128: fix rhythmbox *puppy dog eyes*
<mjg59> Might fix the HP weirdness
<Keybuk> the HP weirdness is just weird :-/
<mdz> pitti: here?
<pitti> mdz: yes
<mdz> pitti: looking at #1499
<sivang> seb128 : thanks
<mdz> pitti: I understand the simple change of the hal property name
<pitti> mdz: :-/ Sometimes I hate my timing
<mdz> pitti: but why the hal_device_get_property_string -> strcmp?
<pitti> mdz: I think the change itself is not the problem
<mjg59> Keybuk: The two issues here are:
<pitti> mdz: it's not a simple yes/no boolean, but the string can have various values
<mjg59> 1) The wakeup address being stored as a virutal address rather than a physical one
<mdz> ah, I see
<mdz> so not only the name, but the semantics changed
<mjg59> 2) The GDT not being addressable from real mode
<sivang> seb128 : you know anyway to make yelp like, "refresh" the xml page it's looking at?
<Keybuk> those both sound likely candidates
<sivang> (instead of killing it and starting it with the updated versino)
<pitti> mdz: I think the patch itself is uncritical, but the new feature has not been tested
<pitti> mdz: it works fine for me, but if 100 other people use it, it might reveal serious problems
<mdz> pitti: ok, understood
<seb128> sivang: no
<mdz> I thought from your comments that it was only a name change
<pitti> mdz: e. g. Debian package has another patch that disables mounting at startup if the user disabled automounting at all
<pitti> mdz: it's a change like filesystem=true to usage="filesystem"
<mdz> right
<pitti> mdz: people who really want it can still get it from my unofficial repo...
* sivang taking a mental note to tell shaunm to add a "refresh" button
<mjg59> Keybuk: thom: Can you grab http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/tmp/acpikernel ?
<mjg59> It's just a kernel, no modules
<Keybuk> boot with init=/bin/sh ?
<mjg59> Then boot it from grub with init=/bin/bash and mount proc, then echo -n 3 >/proc/acpi/sleep
<mjg59> Yeah
<mjg59> thom: You'll want acpi_sleep=s3_bios, too
<Keybuk> does that include the radeon wakeup patch, btw?
<Keybuk> vgapost, or whatever it does
<mjg59> Nope
<mjg59> We'll worry about that later
<thom> right, rebooting
<sivang> seb128 : send you the bt
<sivang> seb128 : for yelp :)
<seb128> ok
<lamont> could some bandwidth-possessing person please grab http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/current/warty.iso and tell me if it boots?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:lamont] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:lamont] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 7 (count 'em) major bugs | BE THE SIGNAL
<lamont> whatever that means. :-)
<sivang> lamont : downloading...
* Mithrandir notes people.u.c is slow
<lamont> thanks.  If it boots, I want to ask #ubuntu to test it, etc.
<sivang> lamont : ofcourse
<lamont> this is more of a process check to make sure I didn't screwup
<thom> mjg59: it suspended ok
<Mithrandir> ETA ~30 minutes
<mjg59> thom: And resumed?
<sivang> lamont : no prob
* lamont has been testing the home edition, you see... :-)
<sivang> ah, Mithrandir is way ahead of me
<sivang> i'm at eta 1:53
<thom> mjg59: blank screen when it came out of suspend (ie, the suspend light went off, nothing else changed)
* lamont decides that he may need to see about taking a class the local JC, after checking what kind of bandwidth that would give him. :-)
<mjg59> thom: Was it alive?
<thom> mjg59: appeared to be
<mjg59> thom: Had you passed acpi_sleep=s3_bios?
<thom> oh, arse
<mjg59> Heh
* thom reboots again
<mjg59> Ok, sounds like it works
<mjg59> Keybuk: Ping?
<lamont> sivang/Mithrandir: when it appears hung, you have to give it a minute or 3... :-)  gnome startup isn't fast reading from a compressed disk image on cdrom
<pitti> mdz: permission to upload #2496?
<mdz> pitti: yes
<thom> mjg59: works fine with acpi_sleep=s3_bio
<thom> s
<seb128> sivang: turn gail off for the crasher
<Mitario> heya
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:pitti] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 13 (count 'em) major bugs | BE THE SIGNAL
<mjg59> thom: Rock
<mjg59> Now, where's Scott gone?
<mjg59> I need someone with utterly broken ACPI resume...
<mdz> lamont: please name the live CD .isos something more descriptive than "warty.iso"
<lamont> ok
<lamont> you want a date, or just 'warty-live.iso'
<lamont> ?
<Kamion> lamont: they'll be warty-live-i386.iso in the final published CD images
<Kamion> or warty-final-live-i386.iso, depending
<Kamion> mdz: OK to upload this to debian-installer?
<Kamion>   * Manual changes:
<Kamion>     - Refer to 'Ubuntu 4.10 "Warty Warthog"' rather than just 'Ubuntu 4.10'.
<Kamion>     - howto/installation-howto.xml: Ubuntu branding. Fix up for Ubuntu
<Kamion>       installer modifications.
<Kamion>     - install-methods/official-cdrom.xml: Link to releases.ubuntulinux.org.
<Kamion>   * Install Ubuntu splash image, so that pxeboot.tar.gz now has the correct
<Kamion>     image too (closes: Ubuntu #2343).
<mdz> Kamion: yes
<sivang> seb128 : how do I turn it off?
<Kamion> good-oh, should hopefully be the last for Warty
<Kamion> I'm trusting nobody has any urgent initrd-udeb changes ...
<mjg59> Anyone else with fucked ACPI able to test something?
<lamont> mdz: renamed to warty-live-i386.iso
<Keybuk> mjg59: back.
* Keybuk mutters something about XFS filesystem support <g>
<Keybuk> so after I got a mini root on /boot ... :p  no, didn't seem to work
<mjg59> Bah.
<mjg59> Identical failure to before?
<Keybuk> not quite
<Keybuk> I think the keyboard came back for a few seconds
<mjg59> Hmm. Interesting.
<mjg59> Can you give it a go with acpi_sleep=s3_bios and acpi_sleep=s3_mode ?
<mjg59> One at a time to start with, and finally both together
<sivang> seb128 : it only happens when I enable "assitive technologies "
<sivang> seb128 : I tuned it off globally
<mdz> lamont: ETA 20m
<Keybuk> mjg59: I'm assuming that 'echo 3 > /proc/acpi/sleep' doesn't return until the machine is awake?
<mjg59> Keybuk: Correct
<mjg59> Unless the sleep fails
<Keybuk> ok, I have a little shell script that does that, and immediately after writes a file and calls sync a few times
<Keybuk> the sleep works fine, it's resume that's unwilly
<Keybuk> uh, unwilling
<mjg59> Yeah. It's almost certainly the suspend code that's broken, though.
<mjg59> Hmm. So no significant difference between that code and previous attempts?
<lamont> mdz: thoughts on 2482?
<mdz> lamont: investigate and fix if necessary
<lamont> duh.
<lamont> was just reading the changelog... looks like sync'ing would be risky
<Keybuk> mjg59: just testing every combination of things I can think of
<mjg59> Keybuk: Ok
<Keybuk> (and pausing in between because you don't have thermal zone support in that kernel, so my laptop sulks a little :p)
<mjg59> Heh
<Keybuk> nope, doesn't look like any combination of options produces an "I'm awake" in the log
<mjg59> Right. And this is the same behaviour as older kernels?
<Keybuk> yup
<mjg59> Hmm.
<mjg59> Tracking this down is likely to involve a moderate amount of pain.
<mjg59> Keybuk: Next step is probably putting beep statements into various parts of the wakeup code
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> beep & sleep ? :p
<Keybuk> and count how many beeps I hear?
<mjg59> Yeah
<Keybuk> I'll give it a go
<mjg59> Pavel's got an x86 assembly beep implementation on acpi-devel at the moment
<Keybuk> though that'll involve finding the wakeup code and beep code
<Keybuk> lol
<mjg59> I'll head home and then start stuffing stuff into a kernel
<Keybuk> ok, cool
<mjg59> Back soon
<Keybuk> okies
<lamont> mdz: CD status?
<mdz> lamont: burning
<mdz> yay, it's labeled Ubuntu
<lamont> mdz: Yeah, that's a simple post-install of /usr/bin/make-iso :(
<mdz> lamont: sound comes up muted
<mdz> but GNOME starts and I'm logged in
<lamont> interesting - sound isn't muted for me...
<lamont> (home edition)
<lamont> if you unmute it, does it work?
<mdz> network came up
<mdz> firefox works
<mdz> doesn't seem to work even after unmuting
<mdz> modules are loaded
<mdz> ah, I think the sound devices are coming up in reverse order
<mdz> compared to real Warty
<mdz> yep
<mdz> my sound device is /dev/dsp1 now
<seb128> mdz: #2141
<mdz> seb128: go ahead
<seb128> thanks
<lamont> alsa sound is what we want?
<lamont> (because that's what I get...)
<mdz> yes
<mdz> alextreme: how does the loading of ALSA modules work in morphix?
<mdz> apparently, it's different from what we do with hotplug
<alextreme> mdz: uses modules.dep and a bunch of sed & awk, is a modified version of a script in alsa afaik
<mdz> eek
<mdz> it happens to load the drivers in reverse order from hotplug on my laptop
<mdz> so my modem gets /dev/dsp rather than the useful sound device
* thom waves goodbye to NetworkManager again
<alextreme> heh, we've been working on a new one now we've moved to 2.6, makes things a lot easier
* lamont goes to lunch so that he can think straight later.
<lamont> bbiab
<alextreme> how're wartys RC bugs hanging in?
<lucas_> 1
<lucas_> oops
* mjg59 wonders where keybuk buggered off to
<thom> mjg59: i think you broke him
<mdz> alextreme: no RC bugs remain
<alextreme> cool
<mdz> did the new X make it onto the daily CD?
<alextreme> not sure exactly if it made mine, CDT is... -6?
<mdz> yes
<mdz> er
<mdz> no, CDT is -5
<mdz> but why CDT?
<mdz> lamont: the CD you pointed me to seems to work well
<elmo> why does postfix not log to it's own logfile?
* mdz points at lamont
<elmo> lamont: why does postfix not log to it's own logfile?
<elmo> thanks mdz ;-P
<mdz> anytime
<alextreme> was looking at warty-changes to figure out when the new X entered the archive
<amu> testing/LiveCD/current is the correct folder ? 
<mjg59> Keybuk: Got another kernel for you
<mjg59> Keybuk: http://www.codon.org.uk/~mjg59/tmp/acpikernel
<mjg59> Should produce a continuous tone on resume. If so, we start a binary search. If not, things are very fucked.
<Keybuk> okie dokie
<Keybuk> try with/without acpi_sleep=* ?
<mjg59> Without for now
<Keybuk> no beeping
<mjg59> None at all?
<Keybuk> nope
<mjg59> Oh dear
<Keybuk> isn't there any earlier in the wakeup you can put that then? :)
<mjg59> Not trivially...
<mjg59> That's right at the start of wakeup_start
<Keybuk> yeah, it's always felt like that whatever code the kernel has to wake up isn't getting run
<mjg59> So there's something wrong in the suspend code
<Keybuk> it's like the kernel suspends it ok, but doesn't put the right address in the right place or something to be woken up -- the hardware comes up by there's no kernel waiting for it
<mjg59> It's an nc4010, right?
<Keybuk> yes
<mjg59> And the speaker is switched on?
<Keybuk> I assume so; I assume you compiled in pcspkr or whatever
<mjg59> No, but it's writing directly to the chip
<Keybuk> should be fine then
<Keybuk> grub can make it beep, anyway
<lamont> alextreme: CST is -6, CDT is -5
<lamont> elmo: because Wietse didn't want to reinvent syslog when there was already a nice facility there.
<lamont> mdz: OK.  I'll ask for testers on #ubuntu then
<elmo> lamont: meh, that's lame
<alextreme> lamont: k, thanks :)
<mjg59> Argh. We're getting the entire Smoothwall development team?
<mdz> lamont: syslog is not "nice" :-)
<lamont> mdz: well, yeah
<lamont> so why did we not hit the gzip futex bug until recently?
<plovs> any of the documentation people awake?
<mdz> lamont: what's the latest mplayer story, now that xvidcore was synched?
<mdz> lamont: I guess that relatively few folks are using futexes on SMP systems with apt; it seems to be difficult to trigger
<lamont> unknown/mplayer_1:1.0-pre5-0.4: Dep-Wait by buildd+macaroni [-:uncompiled] 
<lamont>   Dependencies: libavcodec1-dev
<lamont> grumble
<lamont> ffmpeg delivers libavcodec2-dev, but it's ftbfs
<lamont> i386/dsputil_mmx.c: In function `h263_h_loop_filter_mmx':
<lamont> i386/dsputil_mmx.c:634: error: can't find a register in class `INDEX_REGS' while reloading `asm'
<lamont> mdz: in other words, we're still short a build-dep or 6
<mdz> lamont: are you overriding its optimization flags?
<lamont> mdz: we force optimization to 0..3, you can't say -O6, or you get -O3.
<lamont> that's all on that front.
<lamont> but we do force the architecture level...
<lamont> hrm.
* lamont rolls sbcl back to the top of the hill again
<lamont> or rather, ffmpeg, eh>
<lamont> build running
<amu> lamont: morphix grubsplash, booting takes hours ;)  gnomepanel is working, sound same problems like before
<lamont> amu: which image are you booting?
<amu> testing/LiveCD/current  
<amu>  688748544 2004-10-18 19:28 warty-live-i386.iso
<lamont> amu: process issue resolved. thanks
<amu> i didn't took the time, guess I waited for 5min. ;) 
<sivang> jdub : around ?
<sivang> seb128 : ping
<seb128> pong
<amu> lamont: bootspash looks empty, you should write something nice "Take your Ubunto to everywhere" *ducks*  
<sivang> seb128 : going through the manual, I see we don't have "Browse Folder" option on the default nautilus layout
<Kamion> "Ubuntu"
<seb128> sivang: ?
<lamont> alextreme: thoughts on the sound-isms?
<lamont> amu: all the splashes are just me throwing something in.  Not to be confused with any kind of blessed artwork.
<sivang> seb128 : the manual describes how to use the "open each fodler in a new window" nautilus window
<sivang> seb128 : and choos "File"->"Browse Folder" to make it show in the file browser (it'
<sivang> seb128 : mode of nautilus. But we don't have this on the default layout..DO you know if it's something that was chagned in Ubuntu compared to upstream 2.8 ?
<amu> hmm alsa, there was a cannot cp file errormessi while starting 
<seb128> sivang: I've it here
<seb128> can you make a screenshot of a window with the file menu open ?
<sivang> seb128 : yes
<alextreme> lamont: what soundisms?
<amu> lamont: cp /etc/devfs/conf.d/Alsa no such file or dir 
<lamont> alextreme: devices getting found in the (apparently) reverse order, leading to the sound system running on the modem, and not the sound card.
<lamont> that is /dev/dsp pointing to the wrong device, because the two "sound cards" were found in the reverse order.
<alextreme> ahh, what matt said earlier. i'll take a peek, shouldn't be hard to reverse
<lamont> yeah - that
<lamont> with luck, that's the whole sound issue
<mdz> lamont: how did ffmpeg go the second time around?
<mdz> it has lots of inline assembly, so it tends to be sensitive to optimisation
<amu> alextreme: btw. hi 
<lamont> mdz: uploaded
<mdz> cool
<alextreme> amu: gday :)
<lamont> mdz: but that doesn't fix the problem, you know.
<mdz> lamont: oh?
<lamont> ffmpeg delivers libavcodec___2___
<lamont> and mplayer b-d's libavcodec1-dev
<mdz> http://www.las.ic.unicamp.br/pub/debian-marillat/dists/unstable/main/source/mplayer_1.0-pre5-0.6.dsc
<mdz> build-depends: libavcodec2-dev
<mdz> please request a sync
<lamont> from that url?
<lamont> sent
<elmo> uh
<elmo> ftp://ftp.nerim.net/debian-marillat/
<elmo> is what I've been using?
<amu> :)
* lamont points elmo at mdz.
<lamont> but I bet elmo has a good site for it.
<lamont> esp if it has 1.0-pre5-0.6 :-)
<sivang> this is also what I am using
<elmo> oh, never mind it's one of the stupid, "I have two versions in the Sources file" victims
<mdz> elmo: that's a mirror of the same stuff
<elmo> I didn't sync in case it had actual changes
<mdz> which google found first
<lamont> mdz: btw, doing a blind bootstrap attempt on everything currently dep-waiting, just to be thurough and tie up a buildd for a while.
* lamont looks for something to throw at doko
<lamont> OT: hppa is now 30.5 hours into building the latest gcc-3.4
<doko> lamont: wrong channel ;)
<doko> should I start another one, maybe I get it finished earlier ...
<lamont> doko: well, yes. hence the "OT"
<lamont> actually, I killed the 8 runaway processes from a previous build
<lamont> unless you want to claim lt-gij or SyncTest.exe
<doko> smp kernel?
<lamont> once it gets more than 12% of the CPU, it should build faster.
<lamont> UP kernel
<doko> strange, I've seen this with smp kernel only.
#ubuntu-devel 2004-10-30
<lamont> hppa UP 64-bit kernel (although there are 2 cpus in the machine...)
<lamont> anyway, back to the topic at hand.
* Kamion finally gets everything from /srv/cdimage.no-name-yet.com/bin/ checked into arch
<Kamion> I'd been keeping small local diffs for far too long
<lamont> Kamion: heh
<Mitario> hi guys, have any core ubuntu people taken a look at my 'updates' ideas?
<Kamion> now isn't really the ideal time to get lots of feedback, I suspect ... :-)
<Mitario> heh :)
<jdub> this 'less to view tar.gz files' stuff is crack
<mdz> jdub: why? I have used it for years
<sabdfl> Kamion, mdz: limi's ppc just got blessed with the rc
<jdub> it's not something that ever occurred to me (nor worked on debian)
<sabdfl> and it used a network install to get the latest stuff
<jdub> i did a reinstall on my ibook last night
<jdub> FLAWLESS VICTORY
<sabdfl> but it's still wants the cd for apt-get update etc
<doko> jdub: I agree ;) but you see which effect default configurations have.
<sabdfl> that's a bug
<Kamion> that seems like a matter of opinion? I quite like it to be able to get packages from the CD when it can
<sabdfl> Kamion: if the network is available during install, seems to me the network becomes the default
<Kamion> not everybody has a fast network
<sabdfl> aren't they already in a cache on the disk?
<Kamion> no, we didn't have time to make that work properly.
<Kamion> not for Ship.
<sabdfl> i pointed this out as a bug before preview
<Kamion> it's very complicated to make that work properly; I agreed with mdz to defer that
<Kamion> we do the archive-copier thing for Desktop only, at the moment
<Kamion> which fulfils the need to not require the CD in a default installation
<sabdfl> understood
<sabdfl> i've no objection to the cd still being useful
<sabdfl> but if the network is there during install, why don't we default to uncommenting that apt source?
<Kamion> we do, but the CD source is still there
<sabdfl> but... then it prompts all the time
<Kamion> that's apt's business :-)
<sabdfl> and the usual behaviour is to install then forget about the cd
<sabdfl> i think we should comment out the cd line altogether if network was available during install
<Kamion> that makes the CD useless.
<sabdfl> which was the behaviour i thought we'd agreed to
<sabdfl> Kamion: it's useful for those who want to use it
<jdub> sabdfl: forever, or just for the install?
<sabdfl> it's useful for those who have no network
<sabdfl> jdub: not sure i understand?
<Kamion> they have to go and uncomment it again in sources.list, or else grovel about with dpkg
<Kamion> maybe a sources.list reordering would suffice?
<sabdfl> Kamion: how will reordering affect things?
<Kamion> dunno, just throwing out the idea
<Kamion> I think apt should get a grip and if the CD isn't inserted just go to the network rather than prompting
<sabdfl> that's not something we can get right for warty
<sabdfl> but commenting in or out we can
<Kamion> this sort of sources.list hackery is also quite fragile ...
<sabdfl> mdz: need your input
<Kamion> the last couple of changes we made created bugs, as I recall
<sabdfl> this is a wtf?? bug
<jdub> sabdfl: asking if the cdrom line should be disabled forever if they have network, or only for the life of the install, so they're not prompted for it immediately.
<mdz> sabdfl: ok
<Kamion> jdub: they're never prompted for it immediately
<Kamion> this is "do you want your CD to be insta-transformed into a coaster?"
<sabdfl> jdub: i think it should be disabled post-install if we verified they could see the network repositories
<mdz> sabdfl: regarding the cache thing?
<jdub> Kamion: they're prompted for it as soon as the second stage install starts (this is the bug)
<Kamion> jdub: huh?
<sabdfl> Kamion: i've never used a cd more than once for an install, and user comments the other day suggest that's the common case
<Kamion> jdub: surely not?
<mdz> sabdfl: or ordering sources.list?
<sabdfl> jdub: no, i don't think they are
<Kamion> jdub: that's very different from what sabdfl just claimed
<sabdfl> mdz: not the cache
<jdub> is it?
<sabdfl> mdz: does ordering apt sources.list affect the outcome of an update request?
<Kamion> jdub: sabdfl's talking about apt operations after the install is complete
<mdz> sabdfl: "sort of"
<sabdfl> mdz: ok, then i think we need to update the way the sources.list looks post install
<jdub> on my installs, if i elect to pull updates from the network,
<sabdfl> if we verified that the machine could see the network archive then the cdrom should be commented out
<mdz> it more or less affects the order in which the package records happen to be stored in apt's database
<sabdfl> and the network should be enabled
<jdub> i'm propted to put the cd in when it's apt-get updating
<mdz> which coincidentally happens to cause it to prefer one over the other
<mdz> if you reorder the lines in an existing sources.list, though, that doesn't really work
<Kamion> jdub: that's a bug, and not one I've seen for weeks
<sabdfl> jdub: hmm... that's definitely a bug
<lamont> what about just making the CD's absense a warning instead of fatal?
<mdz> it's sort of an accidental feature
<sabdfl> lamont: affects synaptic, aptitude.... etc
<jdub> Kamion: i'll double-verify it now
<mdz> jdub: apt-get _update_?
<Kamion> lamont: on update, it is
<mdz> that never touches the CD
<mdz> CDs are only scanned by apt-cdrom
<Kamion> jdub: there was a brief bug where the three packages base-config installs before the rest of the second stage weren't on the CD, so it prompted for those
<Kamion> jdub: but I fixed that a while back
<sabdfl> Kamion: i think the explanatory text in sources.list above the cdrom entry can explain how and why a user would re-enable that
<jdub> Kamion: that could be it, i'll try now
<Kamion> sabdfl: does that show up in synaptic?
<sabdfl> jdub: you using rc?
<mdz> Kamion: no
<sabdfl> Kamion: the cd prompt? yes
<mdz> (the comments in sources.list)
<jdub> i used a daily last night
<sabdfl> :-)
<Kamion> sabdfl: no, "the explanatory text in sources.list above the cdrom entry"
<sabdfl> Kamion: no, good point
<sabdfl> but i think it's clear that it's referring to a cdrom
<Kamion> jdub: I happen to be trying with a daily now for other reasons
<Kamion> well, if mdz is happy with some more dodgy shell in base-config ...
<mdz> I think the right solution is to leave it as-is, but allow it to fall back from the CD to the network if the user doesn't put the CD in
<sabdfl> mdz: how?
<Kamion> mdz: that's what I thought would be most reasonable behaviour
<mdz> sabdfl: patch apt
<Kamion> so if you're on a slow network you can put the CD in and it'll use that opportunistically
<jdub> mdz: agree (the endless "i really want the cd!" prompts are annoying)
<sabdfl> i'd much rather be changing the shell that comments / uncomments sources.list than apt right now
<mdz> jdub: yeah, I never really realized that it did that until Ubuntu
<Kamion> sabdfl: remember that base-config changes can't be fixed on upgrades
<mdz> I mean, who uses CDs?
<sabdfl> Kamion: but source.list can't be meddled with on upgrades either, right?
<mdz> Kamion: this can't be fixed on an upgrade anyway
<Kamion> base-config changes are really persistent and really hard to undo from now on if we decide we made a mistake
<lamont> mdz: only living breathing ones.
<Kamion> mdz: yes it can, as soon as apt's patched, existing installations will stop asking for the CD
<Kamion> sabdfl: ^-
<mdz> Kamion: right, sources.list can't be modified on upgrade I mean
<sabdfl> apt is deeeep voodoo
<Kamion> indeed
<Kamion> sabdfl: we employ the apt maintainer, it can't be that bad :)
<sabdfl> and just because the witchdoctor is at hand doesn't mean it's where we should fix it :-)
<Kamion> I think apt is exactly the *right* place for the fix
<Kamion> it benefits far more people that way
<sabdfl> Kamion: agreed, but balance that against the risk of a mess
<Kamion> "my sources.list got screwed up on a fresh install of warty"
<jdub> i'll call HR, see if i can find the apt maintainer
<elmo> sabdfl: fwiw, if mdz thinks he can fix it, I actually think that's less risk than base-config hacks at this stage
<mdz> the media change stuff is not _that_ hairy
<elmo> jdub: har har, go on call Jane at 10 to midnight, dare you
<mdz> not that I particularly want to take responsibility for fixing this at this late hour :-P
<elmo> don't worry, she only sends out the pay checks, I'm sure yours won't get lost ;-)
<Kamion> sounds like "if further records for this package are available, don't emit media change message"
<mdz> Kamion: s/$/ again/
<mdz> needs to keep some new state, etc. not entirely trivial
<Kamion> I'll fix base-config if need be, but I'm concerned that we're regarding base-config changes as automatically lower risk than other things, when in fact they're often hairy changes to hard-to-understand code whose effects persist for a long time
<mdz> seems to me the simplest way to fix this for Warty is to leave the stuff in the cache
<Kamion> mdz: which stuff?
<mdz> Kamion: the .debs copied from the CD
<Kamion> we want to zap the .debs used to install desktop
<Kamion> they're a huge space-sucker
<mdz> right
<mdz> but we can leave the rest
<mdz> non-trivial, but low-risk
<Kamion> that's a change to archive-copier and a rather easier change to base-config
<mdz> the worst we do is waste some disk space if we err in one direction, or prompt for the CD if we err in the other direction
<sabdfl> Kamion: mdz, i need to switch away but please ping me if you decide not to go ahead with a fix for this
<mdz> sabdfl: this is very important to you?
<mdz> for Warty?L
<mdz> s/L//
<sabdfl> mdz: i think it's terrible user experience to prompt for the cd *every time*
<mdz> sabdfl: it's only for a very small number of packages
<sabdfl> how so?
<mdz> only packages which are in ShipSeed
<sabdfl> and if we reordered the sources.list?
<mdz> if we reordered sources.list, it would fetch everything from the network unless it was down
<sabdfl> and if network was down, and it was a cd package, *then* it would prompt for the cd?
<mdz> currently, it fetches ShipSeed from the CD and everything else from the network in the default case
<mdz> sabdfl: I _think_ so
<sabdfl> :-)
<mdz> I know it falls back from one network source to another, but the CD stuff is a little different
<sabdfl> deep voodoo indeed
<Kamion> mdz: (which I thought was desirable behaviour - less network usage)
<mdz> and I don't use it myself
<Kamion> leaving the packages in the cache means that apt won't prompt unless you've done 'apt-get clean' or equivalent at some point
<sabdfl> ok, because most users won't
<Kamion> is there a big synaptic button for "clean cache" that users are likely to press?
<sabdfl> if that's the solution it's fine with me
<mdz> my take is that the simple stopgap is to seed the cache, and the long-term solution is to fix apt
<sabdfl> i really think we should take the cd out of sources.list altogether by default
<sabdfl> ship list is for expert users in any event
<mdz> Kamion: even if we do it by using a copy of ShipSeed in base-config, that's actually fairly reasonable
<Kamion> mdz: there's an easier way, but yeah
<mdz> sabdfl: it's a FAQ, though
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> "how do I get on the network with this crazy module I need to compile"?
<Kamion> sabdfl: only in the same way as anything not in desktop is for expert users
<sabdfl> ah
<sabdfl> because build-essential is in ship not desktop
<mdz> and linux-headers
<sabdfl> so at this terribly late stage in the game can we make a small trade?
<sabdfl> build-essential in exchange for banishing the cd prompt?
<jdub> noooooo
<sabdfl> is jdub listening?
<sabdfl> guess so :-)
<Kamion> ugh
<sabdfl> ok, then no trade, please just banish the cd prompt if at all possible
* Kamion goes to change archive-copier to forestall madder hacks :)
<Kamion> assuming this is acceptable:
<Kamion> 23:51 < mdz> my take is that the simple stopgap is to seed the cache, and the long-term solution is to fix apt
<sabdfl> fine by me if it will banish the cd prompt unless the user has done the apt-cache clean thing
<mdz> sounds good
<Kamion> believe so; I'll test tonight
<mdz> I wonder if synaptic automatically prunes the apt cache
<Kamion> candidate changes already made
<sabdfl> Kamion: wow
<sabdfl> thanks guys
<Kamion> hm, can anyone test Greek on i386 for me? somebody claims it doesn't work, but it works for me ...
<Kamion> I'll mail the diffs to mdz for ack
<mdz> Kamion: I can "test" greek
<mdz> meaning I can tell you if the machine catches fire
<elmo> what crack is this mplayer stuff?
<elmo> it produces mplayer-$ARCH named packages?
<Kamion> mdz: about as much as I can do; you can probably also tell me if what base-config displays looks like Greek text or garbage
<mdz> elmo: yes, optimised builds
<Kamion> elmo: I thought it was mplayer-386, mplayer-586, etc.
<Kamion> mplayer-g4
<mdz> it used to be necessary because it couldn't do runtime CPU detection
<mdz> but I think they fixed that
<mdz> and marillat just continues to do them
<Kamion> mdz: synaptic pruning> hope not, if so we'll have to back up and try something else
<elmo> for christ's sakes
<mdz> Kamion: checking it now
<Kamion> mdz: (this is #2379, btw)
<mdz> Kamion: default is to leave all packages in the cache
<mdz> same as with apt-get
<Kamion> mdz: awesome
* sladen would like to have have everything on the CD that wasn't installed copied to the APT cache directory
<sladen> and/or local on-disk archive (this would allow removing the reference to the install CD from sources.list)
<Kamion> sladen: the latter's planned for Hoary, but requires some thought about the best way to allow a user to clean it up to save disk space
<Kamion> it really should be considered a cache, but if you just blow away a local on-disk archive, apt will complain that it's missing
<Kamion> ah, good, the 'apt-get clean' equivalent is buried in Synaptic -> Preferences -> Temporary Files
<Kamion> jdub: current daily definitely doesn't require the CD here; if it does for you, shout quickly
<jdub> nup, just got past that myself
<jdub> rocking
<jdub> stage 1 was very zippy
<Kamion> good good
<Kamion> it'll slow down a bit by copying Ship, but can't be helped
<Kamion> and default disk space requirements will go up, but conveniently I never got round to reducing them after I made archive-copier stop copying Ship :-)
<Kamion> so the docs'll still be accurate
<jdub> heh
<Kamion> lo, my procrastination has been vindicated
<Kamion> mdz: multiple CD builds on a single day shouldn't require you to set DATE_SUFFIX any more
<sladen> Kamion: indeed, and if they go along with the ``automatically update my system'' during startup, then the point of the cache/archive is nullified since there's bound to be a newer version of 90% of the stuff
<Kamion> sladen: not once we release, there isn't, not for six months
<Kamion> (modulo the odd security update)
<sladen> this is a valid point...
<Kamion> mdz: #2507, important to fix? it does seem to apply to us
<mdz> Kamion: is it as trivial as it looks?
<mdz> it's not critical, but nice-to-have-if-it's-safe
<lamont> mdz: mplayer now d-w: libdivxdecore0, which is not delivered by any source in the archive...
<Kamion> mdz: I don't know what that lt.l4 link is about
<Kamion> the rest (and indeed that) seems entirely safe to me
<Kamion> only affects udebs
<mdz> as long as it doesn't ftbfs, seems safe to me
<mdz> so feel free
<mdz> lamont: is that not what we just synched?
<lamont> no, we sync'd libxvidcore4 or some such
<Kamion> mdz: hrm. involves another initrd build, though ...
<mdz> Kamion: if you're not already planning to do another one, we can let it go
<Kamion> I'm not, currently; I'll make the change in my local tree and mark it UNRELEASED
<mdz> lamont: please track down whatever we need and get it into multiverse and ensure that mplayer builds
<lamont> mdz: roger
* mdz eyes the assignedto field of #2509
<mdz> the user must have helpfully typed some substring of narayannewton@gmail.com
<Kamion> mdz: grr
<mdz> Kamion: what does a low mem install change?
<Kamion> all sorts of stuff; it basically disables internationalisation IIRC
<Kamion> (along with other things)
<Kamion> selecting a Portuguese keyboard seems to work for me
<Kamion> I admit that I haven't really tested lowmem installs of Ubuntu much
<sivang> does anybodu know why "Computer"-->"Disks" gives me the computer:/// vfolder?
<mdz> sivang: yes
<mdz> because that is what it is supposed to do
<sivang> mdz : why not call it "computer" ?
<mdz> sivang: Computer->Computer?
<Kamion> <mdz> /nick scotty
<sivang> mdz : hhmm.. right. Well, I'll just explain this on the manual..that you can access the Computer VF from Computer->Disks
<mdz> sivang: I think that people who know what the computer:/// vfolder is will not look in the documentation :-)
<jdub> sivang: no point explaining mechanics
<sivang> mdz : well, you're probably right..:) I'll just mention it there for those who don't 
<jdub> "where do i get access to my disks?"
<jdub> "Computer > Disks"
<sivang> jdub : I'm just following what already the gnome user guide (2.8) has
<lamont> seeds just pull in depends, not recommends, yes?
<mdz> lamont: correct
* lamont needs to rehash the liveCD mainmod to be desktop seed, rather than the long list of laundry it is today.
<mdz> lamont: any testing feedback for the live CD, apart from me?
<lamont> you and amu, that's about it.
<mdz> lamont: did you ask for testing on ubuntu-users?
<elmo> heh, do we have a bug asking for 2.6.9 yet?
<lamont> haven't sent mail, want to try fixing alsa first - have a fix from alex
<jdub> elmo: don't encourage them. :)
<mdz> base warty is 234M, not bad at all
<mdz> hmm, that was with a full apt- cache actually
<mdz> so a bit less :-)
<sabdfl> mdz: have given jdub a rundown on the final artwork decision
<mdz> for a moment there I thought you said you gave him a rubdown
<sabdfl> seems appropriate :-)
<sabdfl> i'll put up final gdm themes on my chinstrap home dir for testing
<mdz> ok
<sabdfl> jdub is qorking (!) up the calendar ackages
<sabdfl> if those test ok then upload them
<sabdfl> we'll probably want to do a final rev because i'll want to weigh in on the package descriptions
<jdub> sabdfl: i'm going to tidy up the gdm theme xml
<sabdfl> as in tidy -indent?
<jdub> xmllint --format + brain tidying
<sabdfl> jdub: ok, please document any additional changes for me to catch up on, because diff will break on the lint
<sabdfl> ok, mdz, how does it look that we can make a final build some time tomorrow morning your time?
<sabdfl> calendar package descriptions won't affect the cd, it won't be on the cd
<sabdfl> so i'm done w.r.t. cd changes
<sabdfl> promise :-)
<sabdfl> mdz: ping ^
<mdz> workrave
<mdz> 2m
<mdz> sabdfl: that sounds fine
<mdz> sabdfl: all pending updates are in
<sabdfl> except the theme, gnomesplash, and artwork-minus-calendar
<mdz> s/updates/bugfixes/
<mdz> sabdfl: so you decided not to put the calendar on the CD at all?
<hornbeck> nice inotify in Hoary!
<mdz> sabdfl: we need to come up with a name for the semi-official embedded warty I'm going to publish, since I need it for my gateway box
* Kamion goes to test archive-copier/base-config change
<mdz> "uUbuntu", while cute, is neither pronounceable nor typable
<sabdfl> mu-buntu?
<vorlon> "
<vorlon> .. bah, that didn't work. but yeah, mubuntu :)
<vorlon> there we go, buntu
<mdz> heh
<mdz> not bad
<sabdfl> elmo: alive?
<daniels> fabbione: not really
<mdz> Kamion: how are you going about it?
<mdz> Kamion: removing debs for packages which are already installed?
<mdz> I guess removing everything with an ubuntu-{base,desktop} task would do
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> hehehe
<lifeless> if I compose those, my terminal shows them wonky, until they go from the edit line in irssi into the scrollback.
<lifeless> weird.
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> no idea where my mu is
<tseng> could you stop that
<tseng> thanks.
<sabdfl> mjg59: around
<sabdfl> buntu
<lifeless> thats the one
<jdub> mdz: nanubuntu
<lifeless> I just dunno the keyboard shortcut to do it.
<jdub> plus you can make mork and mindy jokes
<sabdfl> hmm... we should also have a nannybuntu, for mid-west / mid-east viewers
<vorlon> lifeless: <compose>m+u
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> bah.
<lamont> mdz: building a new liveCD candidate for you: updated sound detection (we hope...), and slight changes to look more like base/supported seeds
<lifeless> I'll piss tseng off again, wouldn't want bad karma 
<sabdfl> lifeless: try the right hand alt, and m
<mdz> lamont: ok
<vorlon> ... I didn't mean you needed to test it in the channel more...
<lifeless> 
<lifeless> thats right-alt m.
<sabdfl> yes
<lifeless> vorlon: unless I hit enter, I can't actually see it !?
<jdub> sabdfl: we aussies don't have compose set up by default. we don't speak no other englishes.
<sabdfl> sigh
<sabdfl> night all
<lifeless> night
<mdz> sabdfl: night
<jdub> 'nacht
* vorlon waves
* tseng peaks in at mono
<lamont> vorlon: I don't have a key labeled 'compose'
<lamont> tseng: missing anything, I wonder?
<tseng> ah nice, gtk-sharp made it this time
<tseng> so monodoc should succeed on ppc, x86 next go around
<tseng> and then with any luck the apps will build.
<tseng> :)
<jdub> "I have to admit that I find the black girl somewhat erotically arousing,
<jdub> because you can see the fleshy base of her mammary and I am hardwired as
<jdub> it were to be visually stimulated by such things."
<jdub> ...
<lamont> tseng: monodoc is arch: all only?
<tseng> well it deps on gtk-sharp
<tseng> which is only built on x86 ppc so far
<lamont> mono doesn't list amd64 in the control file, so no build happiness there.  But mono is 32-bit only, yes?
<tseng> so far
<tseng> the short answer is yes.
<jdub> the long answer is always 'maybe', which is indeed longer than 'yes'.
* lamont slaps jdub with a cold trout
<vorlon> lamont: no?  Mine looks slightly like a pull-down menu with a mouse pointer on it :-)
<tseng> hm whats going on with muine
<tseng> jdub: the long answer is more of a "sortof kindof"
<lamont> vorlon: where, that's my question???
<tseng> oh
<tseng> After installing, the following source dependencies are still unsatisfied:
<tseng> libgtk-cil(inst 1.0.2-1 ! << wanted 0.99) libgconf-cil(inst 1.0.2-1 ! << wanted 0.99) libgnome-cil(inst 1.0.2-1 ! << wanted 0.99)
<tseng> Source-dependencies not satisfied; skipping muine
<tseng> i see said the blind man.
<mdz> ...as he picked up his hammer and sawa
<mdz> saw, even
<daniels> jdub: aren't we all?
<vorlon> lamont: on my keymap, the menu key is a compose key.  I think I'm running a keymap that vaguely resembles the stock Debian dvorak X layout, but I could be wrong...
<lifeless> menu key ?
<mdz> the one with a little picture of a drop-down menu
<mdz> on a 104-key keyboard
<vorlon> on 104/105-key "Microsoft" keyboards.
<lifeless> oh right,
<lifeless> I have it, it generates '9~'
<vorlon> #include "bitchy-rant-about-not-being-able-to-find-a-good-105-key-anymore.h"
<lifeless> without the quotes
<lifeless> just superglue an old good one to your laptop ?
<vorlon> :)
* lifeless kicks off a regression test run, and goes to stretch legs
<mdz> I can get ubuntu down to about 130M without any trouble
<mdz> should fit nicely on a 256M CF
<lifeless> with jffs2 it should go way further down
<mdz> I'm using jffs2 currently, and I'm sick of it
<mdz> it doesn't support shared writable mmap, and it takes about 15 minutes to do its boot-time consistency check
<mdz> I'm told the latter may be fixed in 2.6
<mdz> but the former makes apt unusable, which is rather inconvenient
<lamont> mdz: people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041019-02/warty-live-i386.iso
<mdz> lamont: any point in trying to rsync against the last one?
<mdz> assuming no
<mdz> err
<mdz> lamont: that image is 688,728,064 bytes
<mdz> 650M = 681574400 bytes
<lamont> mdz: no, not really
<lamont> it turns to crap with the compressed image.
* lamont thought CD's were 700MB...
<lamont> or must I prune?
<mdz> some of them are
<mdz> some are not
<lamont> _mine_ all are... :-)
<lamont> prune to 650MB?
<mdz> the CDs we will be pressing are not :-P
<mdz> (yes)
<lamont> right
* lamont will prune
* mdz cancels the download
<jdub> oof
<jdub> wonder what the price difference is
<daniels> http://www.livejournal.com/users/whirled/218294.html
<daniels> warioware is eeeevviiiil.
<lamont> mdz: what should be the first piece of desktop to go *poof*??
<lamont> emacs21 would get me back under the size limit.. :-)
<chrisa> Remove emacs, add vim-gnome
<lamont> mdz: alien and friends can go, yes?
<jdub> lamont: (some of those winfoss things are total crack)
<lamont> jdub: which ones, and I'll prune the tarball
<jdub> lamont: (i'm not going to claim final call on that, but it's an option)
* lamont thinks they're all crack, but that's just my anti-windoze bias showing...
<lamont> celestia strikes me as fluff
<jdub> mmm
<jdub> 2.6.9 looks boring
<jdub> not much change
<jdub> let's ship it!
<lamont> jdub: WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH JDUB???
<jdub> haha
<jdub> sometimes "no" gets boring
<lamont> abiword  audacity  celestia  firefox  gimp  openoffice  pdfcreator  thunderbird
<lamont> pick some
<jdub> well, we don't even ship celestia
<mdz> lamont: ttf-baekmuk?
<lamont> we kinda depricated abiword, didn't we?
<mdz> that might get you below the limit by itself
<lamont> mdz: cool
<jdub> no, abiword is just in supported
<mdz> there are several big font packages
<lamont>    <!-- <packagereq>ttf-baekmuk</packagereq> DOESN'T FIT-->
<mdz> sorry, Korea :-(
<mdz> someone has to take one for the team
<mdz> or
<mdz> we could remove lsb and libc6-dev
<mdz> that might do it too
<chrisa> lamont: abiword and pdfcreator
<lamont> pdfcreateor is useful, though... celestia is fluff
<lamont> mdz: trying one with ttf-baekmuk gone
<lamont> stripping lsb will strip ubuntu-desktop, btw
<mdz> lamont: what's this:  abiword  audacity  celestia  firefox  gimp  openoffice  pdfcreator  thunderbird
<lamont> that's the windoze apps that are on the CD uncompressed
<mdz> ah
<lamont> I think abiword and celestia might make it so that korea doesn't have to take one for the team
<mdz> we definitely want abiword
<lamont> for windows?
<mdz> yes
<lamont> ok
<mdz> celestia seems a bit esoteric
<mdz> but that'd have to go through Mark
<lamont> 720     disctree/celestia
<lamont> 11968   programs/celestia
<lamont> I could strip it for now.  Or Korea could be helpful
<jdub> might be best to concentrate on smaller live-cd-not-required things
<lamont> jdub: OK.
<lamont> test build without korea fonts running, eta 30 min...
<chrisa> Poor .kr
<lamont> sigh.  home machine filled up.  Guess I have to remove some old ISO's. :-)
<lamont> libc6-i686??
<jdub> lamont: got that morphix grub thingy handy?
<jdub> lamont: what order are the arrows in the bottom left?
<jdub> down up or up down?
<lamont> sec - gotta reboot
<jdub> just check the image... :)
<jdub> oh
<jdub> if you're rebooting for this, don't
<Kamion> mdz: no, much easier than that
<jdub> but if you're rebooting otherwise, go right ahead
<jdub> ;)
<lamont> uh, what arrows?
<jdub> in the pcx
<jdub> down the bottom left
<jdub> there are some bits of stuff
<jdub> two arrow buttons
<lamont> there's boot optoins and such, but I see no buttons
<mdz> Kamion: don't keep me in suspense :-)
<jdub> lamont: not on the boot screen, on the image itself
<lamont> doh
<jdub> heh
<Kamion> mdz: we just move stuff at different times
<Kamion> mdz: mail on its way to you now
<mdz> jdub: what do you mean by smaller live-cd-not-required things?
<Kamion> tested, works for me
<lamont> jdub: left one up, right one down.
<jdub> mdz: stupid shit you wouldn't need on a live cd; lamont mentioned alien
<jdub> lamont: rock, thanks
<lamont> ubuntu-desktop pulls in alien
<mdz> jdub: why wouldn't you need alien?
<mdz> lamont: alien is required by lsb
<Kamion> not sure I see the absolute requirement to have ubuntu-desktop
<jdub> on the live cd?
<Kamion> it's not like you're going to be upgrading this, which is basically what u-d is for
<mdz> jdub: morphix live CDs use an overlay filesystem, so you can install things
<lamont> just added it because it was in the seed...
<lamont> likewise, we could drop synaptic and friends, no?  But probably shouldn't.
<mdz> no, for the same reason
<Kamion> ubuntu-desktop depends on everything in the seed :)
<lamont> just not from http repositories on this CD.
<jdub> doesn't seem like we should bother supporting that too much
<mdz> jdub: we shouldn't break it for the sake of ~2M
<lamont> I'm happy calling http repositories an errata item for the liveCD. (caused we think by the funky FS hooks and sockets...)
<jdub> mdz: alien was an example, i'm sure there are other things that are less useful on a livecd
<jdub> lamont: want a new grub thingy?
<lamont> yes, please
<mdz> if you look at the live CD as a demo + rescue environment, pretty much everything is useful
<lamont> doc-debian?
<Kamion> that's tiny anyway
<Kamion> hm, no it's not
<lamont> I'd be more inclined to nuke that than korea...
<lamont> does xscreensaver-gl buy us enough to justify?
<lamont> and libc6-i686 has potential...
<lamont> mdz: fwiw, the last several CD's have been too large...
<azrail> question: I am looking to add a package to the ubuntu tree, whom do I talk to about doing such
<Kamion> azrail: I meant the ubuntu-devel mailing list.
<Kamion> azrail: ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
<azrail> Kamion, blargh.
<lamont> jdub: you sending me that image, or did my spam blocks take it?
<lamont> daniels: for my clueless brain... there's a program somewhere in the x-pile that just reads keycodes and dumps their values to stdout.... What is it?
<jdub> lamont: one sec
<jdub> lamont: xev
<daniels> lamont: xev, yah
<lamont> thanks
<jdub> tseng: yayayayaayya!
* jdub dances around like kermit the frog
<lamont> jdub: why so?
<lamont> mono?
<jdub> yeah
<mdz> lamont: run dpigs on it
<mdz> dpigs -100 -s /livecd/var/lib/dpkg/status
<lamont> dropping ttf didn't do squat
<lamont> ok.
<lamont> you mean dpkgs?
<lamont> or where does dpigs come from?
<lamont> debian-goodies
<lamont> 126784 openoffice.org-bin
<lamont> 36096 emacs21-common
<lamont> 28896 openoffice.org
<lamont> 28604 evolution
<lamont> 28156 gnome-applets-data
<lamont> \
<lamont> heh
<jdub> they're crap, rip 'em all out
<chrisa> I vote emacs21-common leaves
<lamont> actually, ubuntu-desktop pulled in ttf-baekmuk.  time for it to die.
<lamont> 23 minutes
<lamont> jdub: timer is gonna be brown on brown...
<jdub> lamont: isn't that what the little white line is for?
<lamont> maybe. dunno
* jdub tinks it is
* lamont builds
* lamont builds the home edition with the new artwork.
<lamont> -rw-r--r--    1 root     buildd   676261888 Oct 19 03:41 warty-live-i386.iso
<lamont> that better?
<lamont> 645MB.
<mdz> Kamion: still here?
<mdz> lamont: yes
<lamont> mdz: people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041019-03/warty-live-i386.iso
<lamont> jdub: does mono deliver a jdk
<lamont> ?
<lamont> mdz et al: downloading?
<Kamion> mdz: yes
<lamont> jdub: this also has the new grub screen
<lamont> mdz: I couldn't find divxdecode0 anywhere, but did see some comments about dealing with divx better in the vidxcore package, so I'm going to try building mplayer without it...
<mdz> jamesh: heh, I just assumed that that drag-search-result-to-the-trash thing actually worked with the original trashcan
<jamesh> mdz: nope.
<mdz> lamont: don't you mean libdivxdecore0?
<lamont> mdz: yeah. that one
<mdz> lamont: you're sure you didn't search for 'decode' rather than 'decore'?
<mdz> google finds many references
<lamont> 99% certain...  yea, but no nice pretty debian packages that I could find.,
<mdz> divx4linux (1:5.0.1-1) unstable; urgency=low
<mdz>   * New upstream release.
<mdz>  -- Christian Marillat <marillat@debian.org>  Sat, 27 Apr 2002 14:34:55 +0200
<lamont> where!
<mdz> google
<mdz> _very first hit_
<lamont> sigh.  saw that was clearly an email, ignored it..
* lamont should read more
<mdz> it wasn't an email
<mdz> it was a directory index
<lamont> searching for libdivxdecore0?
<mdz> yep
<mdz> http://www.google.com/search?&q=libdivxdecore0
<lamont> Index of doc/...?
<mdz> correct
<mdz> look in changelog, find source package name, search for <source package name> dsc, find source package
<lamont> and go see mowgli, eh?
<mdz> the man-cub
<lamont> Guess I should test build it before I request the sync, eh?
<lamont> mdz: except that said source doesn't produce libdivxdecore0
* lamont searches more
<fabbione> morning guys
<lamont> mdz: no joy here.
<lamont> and mplayer apperas to be missing a builddep on xmms
<chrisa> eh? mplayer shouldn't need xmms to build
<lamont> cc: /usr/lib/libxmms.so.1: No such file or directory
<lamont> configure ... --enable-xmms 
<Kamion> mdz: uploaded
<mdz> Kamion: does that require an initrd update?
<Kamion> mdz: no
<mdz> yay
<Kamion> roughly speaking only udebs needed up to and including "Loading installer components from CD" are in the initrd
<Kamion> anyway, long past my bedtime
<lamont>  Log for successful build of mplayer
<lamont> mdz: so... interesting thing...
<lamont> if you take the source package in our archive, and you say 'dpkg-buildpackage -S', you get a source package without the libdivxdecore0 Build-Dep
<lamont> so, can I upload?
<mdz> lamont: fascinating
<mdz> yes
<Kamion> mdz: oh, before I go, did I understand sabdfl correctly earlier that he wants a final-candidate warty build tomorrow morning your time?
<lamont> there are 4 debian/control files, and one of them gets copied into debian/control during debian/rules clean
<lamont> mplayer uploaded.
<lamont> the crowd may cheer.
<lamont> now then, about java...
<lamont> what should I install on my wife's computer?
<lamont> so do we correct the people who call it 4.1?
<lamont> jdub: was that grubscreen supposed to have different bands of color in the climbing timer?
<Kamion> lamont: I've been doing so when I can be bothered
<lamont> Kamion: it won't be to significant until 5.10 > 5.04 > 5.1 :-)
<lamont> jdub?
* lamont points jdub (and whoever) at http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/jdub-grub.jpg
<lamont> should it look like that.  I mean, the bars are kinda unique on the countdown clock... Just wondering if it was intentional.
<lamont> sigh.  libc_5.4.46-15 bootstrapped.
<lamont> as did libdb_1.85.4
<lamont> so did anyone download & boot 20041019-03?
* lamont pokes mdz
<lamont> Subject: mplayer_1.0-pre5-0.6ubuntu1_source.changes is NEW
* lamont looks around for katie...
<lamont> because apparently "mplayer" != "mplayer"
* lamont sleeps
<fabbione> mdz: still around?
<mdz> lamont: back
<mdz> garage door repair was needed
<mdz> Kamion: he said "tomorrow"
<mdz> Kamion: it was not clear whether he meant yours+his or mine
<fabbione> mdz: you got email :P
<mdz> s/email/MORE email/
<fabbione> no no.. when you get mail from me, they are always full of love :P
* fabbione needs to swap 2 workstations really soon
<SuperL4g> Did I hear right that there was going to be some big discussion today about the artwork?
<jdub> lamont: weird
<jdub> lamont: i thought they were in the right spot for the arrows
<jdub> SuperLag: that was on #ubuntu much earlier
<fabbione> ARGH
<fabbione> 2516 to 2521
<fabbione> 11. Pressed PowerPC and AMD65 CDs Available
<fabbione> WOHHAAAA
<fabbione> AMD65 <--!!!
<Keybuk> morning
<fabbione> it must be cool :P
<Mithrandir> fabbione: I guess they counted the nx bit as well, or something. :P
<fabbione> ehehe
<Mithrandir> fabbione: xfree doesn't put anything in /usr/X11R6/lib32, does it?
<Mithrandir> (on amd64)
<fabbione> no
<fabbione> only {whatever}/lib
<Mithrandir> yeah, good
<sivang> morning all
<Keybuk> glslideshow is a *bad* screensaver
<sivang> Keybuk : why bad?
<Keybuk> I fed it the directory with all my digital camera albums in it
<Keybuk> and then I sit and stare at it for hours going "ooh, I remember that"
<jdub> it seems to use gobloads of cpu, despite using gl
<Keybuk> jdub: really?  it doesn't for me
<jdub> i should try again on my desktop
* jdub goes to do ubuntu presnetation
<Keybuk> doesn't use enough to seriously appear in top
<seb128> morning
<pitti> Hi seb128
<seb128> hey pitti 
<fabbione> daniels: ping
<enrico> Hello all
<__daniel> hai enrico
<Kamion> oops, I broke the daily CD build script
<Kamion> fixing ...
<pitti> Kamion: is that the reason why there are still no dailys available for today?
<pitti> Kamion: I'd like to test today's 
<Kamion> pitti: yes
<Kamion> today's is building now
<pitti> oh fine
<pitti> thanks
<Kamion> I noticed when I also tried to test today's :)
<Kamion> fallout from the attempt to make multiple cron.daily invocations on the same day work
<pitti> Kamion: it's still the "old" artwork, right?
<Kamion> kinda surprised I didn't get cronmail about the failure, though
<Kamion> pitti: I've no idea if the new artwork has been uploaded yet; I haven't got to warty-changes in my mail-reading yet
<pitti> Kamion: I read it, no changes until now
<pitti> Kamion: I'm just not sure whether this must be changed in artwork or in /etc/skel, base-config or whatever
<Kamion> just ubuntu-artwork (and possibly friends) as far as I know.
<Kamion> I really hope base-config doesn't need to be changed, since that would directly imply that we weren't fixing things properly on upgrade.
<sabdfl> Kamion: do you know if jdub uploaded new artwork, gdm and calendar pkgs last night?
<Kamion> sabdfl: apparently not
<sabdfl> 'k thanks
<Kamion> I'll do a new CD build the moment I see them hit the archive
<sabdfl> great
<sabdfl> btw, limi's ppc build last night said "Debian/warty" or something like that in MacOS disk info
<Kamion> pitti: new images up
<Kamion> sabdfl: that's odd, I thought it had been Ubuntu/warty forever
<pitti> Kamion: thanks! Sucking them now...
<Kamion> Volume id: Ubuntu 4.10 ppc Bin-1
<Kamion> hmm
<mjg59> sabdfl: You were looking for me last night?
<Kamion> oh, it'll be the HFS volid, not the ISO9660 one
<Kamion> ./tools/boot/warty/boot-powerpc:echo -n " -part -no-desktop -hfs-bless CD$N/install -hfs-volid Debian/PowerPC_${CODENAME} " \
<Kamion> bleh
<Kamion> sabdfl: fixed, thanks
<sabdfl> :-) you're welcome
<sabdfl> Kamion: have you been drinking your merging potion?
<Kamion> for post-warty?
<sabdfl> i hope yo mama dropped you in it when you was a little boy, and it had a permanent effect
<sabdfl> *
<Kamion> currently here <------------------------> post-warty <-> the moon :-)
<sabdfl> it's getting the 1st 200 km that hurts, trust me
<Kamion> but yeah, I suspect I will be knee-deep in d-i merging for some time
<Kamion> heh
<mjg59> Hrm.
<mjg59> We now stand a decent chance of some amount of StR functionality on most hardware for Hoary - it's getting that last bit that's going to be nasty
<sabdfl> SR?
<mjg59> Suspend to Ram
<sabdfl> nasty? this is what we do before breakfast :-)
<sabdfl> mjg59: please could you help elmo register buntu.(com/net/org) for us? i've no idea of the idn foo required
<Kamion> mdz: do you want me to upload jigit, or are you on it?
<mjg59> We're at the point where most hardware either wakes up to a good approximation of properly, or blows up immediately
<mjg59> sabdfl: You want xn--buntu-7be.(com/net) - .org doesn't do IDN yet
<sabdfl> literally xn--buntu-7be?
<mjg59> The nc40xx series seems to be firmly in the blows up immediately camp
<mjg59> sabdfl: Yup
<sabdfl> wow
<sabdfl> ok
<Kamion> punycode is funky (in the RUN AWAY sense)
<sabdfl> why didnt they just use utf8?
<mjg59> DNS doesn't support 8-bit streams
<mjg59> Or, rather, there are limites on what can go in an A record
<sabdfl> mjg59: who on earth runs dns over anything else?
<mjg59> Not all of ascii is valid, either
<mjg59> You basically get alphanumerics and -
<vorlon> the DNS RFCs strictly define the set of allowed chars in DNS records, and they felt they couldn't afford to break interop with existing implementations.
<vorlon> Apparently not everybody on the Internet runs bind9 on Debian, bah.
<vorlon> cut 'em loose, I say ;)
<Kamion> the requirements draft puts it a little more strongly :-)
<Kamion> [1]  The DNS is essential to the entire Internet. Therefore, the service
<Kamion> MUST NOT damage present DNS protocol interoperability. It MUST make the
<Kamion> minimum number of changes to existing protocols on all layers of the
<Kamion> stack. It MUST continue to allow any system anywhere to resolve any
<Kamion> internationalized domain name.
<mjg59> Kamion: Do you still have that bastard evil VIA laptop?
<Kamion> mjg59: yes
<mjg59> Can I grab that off you at some point?
<Kamion> mjg59: the C3? sure, I can drop it over today
<mjg59> Cool.
<mjg59> I /think/ it'll probably suspend/resume now
<Kamion> rock
<Kamion> is this with 2.6.9?
<mjg59> Plus a couple more patches
<mjg59> There were a couple of problems - firstly, the kernel was writing a virtual address to the wakeup register, not a physical one
<Kamion> would you prefer it with or without a working install of something?
<mjg59> Heh
<mjg59> All I need is a kernel, bash, and scp
<Kamion> I'll give you a full install then, less effort
<fabbione> Kamion: ping me when ready to test the new iso's :-)
<mjg59> Cool, thanks
<Kamion> fabbione: any particular new ISOs?
<mjg59> Ooh. ntfs support is getting closer to file creation/deletion
<fabbione> Kamion: the one that will be final tomrrow? ;)
<Kamion> fabbione: I'm sure it won't be silent here :)
<vorlon> mjg59: hmm, there's actually been progress on that?
<mjg59> vorlon: There's code for inode allocation/deallocation now
<vorlon> last I asked, I was told that it *probably* wouldn't blow anything up as long as I was writing to an existing file whose size I didn't need to change. ;)
<Kamion> now somebody please make parted support NTFS :)
<mjg59> But yeah, the only safe thing is not to change the size yet
<vorlon> doesn't it already?  Are we still using ntfsresize from partman?
<sabdfl> mjg59: is StR going to basically require custom voodoo for each separate laptop?
<Kamion> vorlon: the latter, AFAIK
<Kamion> (Ubuntu isn't even doing that, because the change arrived late in our freeze period and it's a very scary change.)
<mjg59> sabdfl: In the long run, no
* vorlon could probably be induced to add ntfs support to parted post-sarge.
<Kamion> hooray
<pitti> jamesh: I read in your blog that you are working on fancy panel icons for mounted devices, right?
* Kamion makes note to send vorlon a few gallons of caipirinha
<vorlon> after all, it's just not right for there to be a Windows-related technology that I haven't touched from Linux. :)
<pitti> jamesh: bug #980 is about that, can I assign it to you?
<vorlon> ack, wait, this means I have to learn C# too, nooooo
<jamesh> pitti: I'm looking.
<mjg59> sabdfl: We still need to solve the video reinitialisation problem
<mjg59> But other than that, the problems are going to be down to individual drivers that do the wrong thing
<sabdfl> hey apparently there's a linux distribution that only runs perl
<mjg59> Fixing most of those drivers is easy, but there's a lot of grunt work involved
<sabdfl> we should ask them if they want to do it as a derivative
<vorlon> what, like, init=/usr/bin/perl?
<sabdfl> "pubuntu" :-)
<sabdfl> poobuntu?
<sabdfl> nah
<jamesh> pitti: sure.  Go ahead
<pitti> jamesh: thanks.
<jamesh> pitti: if you are interested, a snapshot of my code is here: http://www.gnome.org/~jamesh/drivemount-new-20041014.tar.gz
<pitti> jamesh: nice! How is it installed, is it kind of a daemon?
<pitti> jamesh: so just run the program in the background?
<jamesh> pitti: at the moment it is just an application.
<jamesh> pitti: the plan is to replace the old drivemount applet with that code.
<jamesh> pitti: It is using the same APIs as Nautilus to list, mount and unmount volumes
<jamesh> so when I tell it to unmount the cdrom drive, Nautilus closes all the open windows for that volume too.
<pitti> jamesh: so gnome-vfs2; sounds sane
<pitti> jamesh: and the "current" one uses its own stuff?
<jamesh> yeah.
<pitti> jamesh: nice, then it should automatically use pmount
<jamesh> pitti: the current one just calls mount and umount
<jamesh> pitti: which also means that it can't unmount any volume with a trash directory (because of the dnotify watches)
<pitti> jamesh: btw, I think this is the same with gnome-volume-manager; it shouldn't need an extra pmount patch, but it does ATM
<pitti> oh, right
<jamesh> pitti: my new code worked flawlessly on Ubuntu with the USB keys I tried
<jamesh> so yes, it is working with pmount properly
<pitti> jamesh: just tried it
<pitti> jamesh: works nice!
<pitti> jamesh: and as an applet this will be integrated into the panel, I guess
<jamesh> yes.
<pitti> jamesh: it's just a little disturbing to see five identical icons :-)
<jamesh> pitti: it is asking gnome-vfs for the icon names, actually.
<pitti> jamesh: I saw that the names appear as bubble help
<jamesh> pitti: so if gnome-vfs provided different icon names, the applet would display different icons :)
<pitti> jamesh: maybe Hoary's call can tell the drive types apart and we have different symbols for USB keys
<pitti> jamesh: s/call/hal/
<pitti> jamesh: I think I have seen sth about this on some utopia list
<sjoerd> gnome-vfs+hal icons are a lot nicer
<jamesh> pitti: on Fedora there is an updfstab program (part of kudzu), and it uses the product names to guess the device type
<jamesh> pitti: it isn't perfect though, since if it doesn't find a matching entry in the config file, it sometimes doesn't end up mounting the drive ...
<jamesh> (whereas the same USB key just works on Ubuntu)
<pitti> nice to hear :-)
<pitti> although I still get far too many "my drive is not mounted" bugs
<pitti> although most of them are now kernel bugs
<jamesh> the Fedora code also tries to classify different mass storage devices (eg. if it is a camera)
<pitti> jamesh: hmm, g-v-m should take care of that in U
<jamesh> which can really only be done by matching product names
<pitti> jamesh: we currently use the presence of a dcim/ folder
<pitti> jamesh: quite hackish, but works well so far
<jamesh> yep.
<pitti> jamesh: plug in a camera, see gthumb automatically open
<jamesh> pitti: that also has the benefit that if you pull the memory card out of a camera and plug it into a card reader, it treats it the same as plugging in the camera.
<pitti> jamesh: right
<pitti> jamesh: a friend of mine was pretty impressed as he saw this work with his pcmcia card reader :-)
<jamesh> so even when it misdetects something as a camera, it provides an option that the user probably wants :)
<lamont> anyone test http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041019-03/warty-live-i386.iso  yet?
<fabbione> lamont: downloading now
<fabbione> i guess rsync is not worth...
<lamont> rsync is useless for this
<fabbione> ETA 40 min
<fabbione> at what time is the meeting today?
<fabbione> 16:00 UTC?
<thom> uh, what meeting?
<fabbione> Tech Board
<fabbione> yeah it's at 16 UTC
<fabbione> WHOO
* lamont must drive children too school. back in about 90 minutes
<fabbione> i need some extra crack :-)
<daniels> four and a half hours?
<Kamion> ETA 3:08; sigh
* daniels decides that staying up for TB is an impossibility.
<daniels> thom: wanna pick me up from the airport at 5:25? :P
<thom> no, not really :P
<daniels> i seem to bring all the red-eyes
* daniels kicks IE in the nads.
<daniels> XP and IE are horrific.  and I haven't got the softmodem working on the X40, and our USB ACM support is broken. yay!
<fabbione> daniels: you want to take a look at 060_
<fabbione> daniels: and probably push it upstream
* daniels stares at IE's SSL support.
<daniels> fabbione: yeah
<daniels> (so-called 'support')
<daniels> fabbione: will do
<fabbione> daniels: i am talking about X.org
<fabbione> not Xfree86
<fabbione> all the manpages where missing info :P
<fabbione> just small details..
<daniels> fabbione: huh?
<daniels> fabbione: are you saying you want me to push xfree86's #060 upstream?
<fabbione> no
<daniels> ok ...
<fabbione> i said push my 060 from X.org to X.org
<daniels> is that in the xsf tree?
<fabbione> yes
<fabbione> committed 2 minutes ago
<daniels> can you please put it up on rookery or something?
<daniels> i'm on dialup here
<fabbione> daniels: sure
<fabbione> ahhh
<fabbione> daniels: people/~fabbione/060_fix_XOrgManDefs.diff
<daniels> thanks dude
<fabbione> daniels: XORGRELSTRING is never defined
<fabbione> same as the other one
<fabbione> and the way in which the string is built is generally wrong
<fabbione> that's a simple fix
<fabbione> but there are better than that one
<fabbione> just don't ask me to do one NOW
<daniels> fabbione: ah thanks, I'll commit that
<fabbione> check it first :-)
<fabbione> just see man pages ike security._man
<fabbione> or X.Org
<fabbione> and see how it changes with that patch
<daniels> yeahRSE, I HATE XP
<daniels> yeah
<daniels> oh my god, go away. ARGH!
<daniels> 'you're obviously blind.  would you lie me to read everything aloud?')
<mjg59> daniels: ?
<daniels> mjg59: seemingly, every time I press something, the frigging Narrator dialog box comes up (well, THREE of them)
<daniels> and I've had about 4 other a11y-related things pop upa t me
<lamont> fabbione: word?
<fabbione> lamont: ?
<fabbione> excel?
<lamont> livecd
<fabbione> oh right!
<fabbione> i forgot to burn it :P
* Mithrandir chuckles
<fabbione> lamont: doing it now.. sorry.. got sucked in X.org documentation
<fabbione> at least that package is almost done
<lamont> heh
<lamont> Kamion: 1659 - so hwclock.sh should modprobe rtc, eh?
<fabbione> lamont: i can still read "welcome to MOrphix"
<fabbione-live> well it boots :)
<fabbione-live> but it`s odd because the fb goes up to 1600x1200
<fabbione-live> X no
<fabbione-live> hmm we can do better for hoary
<lamont> fabbione-live: where is the 'Welcome to Morphix"?
<lamont> which screen, that is.
<fabbione-live> at the boot
<fabbione-live> before it switches to fb mobe
<lamont> ah, ok.
<lamont> not the grub splash, and not the fb-mode stuff, but rather that short amount of text inbetween.
<fabbione-live> correct
<lamont> mdz awake yet?
<fabbione-live> lamont: is there anything special you want me to test?
<lamont> fabbione-live: well, everything.  But prior to asking on ubuntu-users, I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't process-b0rked. (bulk download here would take over a day, or cost me money...)
<lamont> and still take 6 hours
<fabbione-live> well... the games work <g>
<fabbione-live> hmmm interesting
<fabbione-live> it uses automatically a swap if it finds it
* lamont is reminded of the good old days, when he got paid to play rogue
<lamont> yeagh
<fabbione-live> that means that if i suspend to disk using the swap partition i will lose my session
<lamont> I expect so
<fabbione-live> lamont: is there any option available for the user to avoid it?
<fabbione-live> the grub session is simply too fast to have the time to read
<lamont> fabbione-live:  dunno
<lamont> hit a key during that 5 second window
* lamont grabs bugzilla and beats it against the wall
<fabbione> lamont: the problem is that sometimes my screen takes more than 5 secs to sync the freq
<fabbione> and i can barely see the grub stuff
<lamont> fabbione: you need a better screen, obviously. :-)
<lamont> reboot, pause a few seconds, and then begin a rythmic tattoo on the shift key
<lamont> :-)
<fabbione> ahha
<fabbione> any preferred song to follow?
<lamont> shave and a hair cut is too short.. :_)
<lamont> something with a good beat, obviously.
<fabbione> you know.. Metallica might lead to the BIOS error: "Error detecting the keyboard. Please press F1 to boot"
<Kamion> lamont: maybe only on architectures that have it, or maybe hwclock itself should do it in the code paths where it's about to access /dev/rtc
<lamont> Kamion: could blindly modprobe it though, yes?
<Kamion> s' probably OK, I think I'd be more comfortable with doing it only when it's needed
<Kamion> (powerpc doesn't have rtc, wouldn't want to generate bogus error output there)
<Kamion> but whatever flies :)
<sabdfl> Kamion: any sign of those artwork packages?
<Kamion> sabdfl: nothing on warty-changes
<mdz> morning
<T-Bone> evening ;)
<mdz> Kamion: go ahead with jigit, you're best equipped to know when it's ready
<fabbione> hey mdz
<Kamion> yerk, we don't have wdiff in main?
<fabbione> mdz: please discard my last mail
<Kamion> mdz: ok, looking at it now
<pitti> meeting time
<fabbione> yup
<pitti> mdz: sabdfl wants you in #u-meeting
<lucas_> Hi, I need some help understanding the Ubuntu install process to fix a broken installation.
<lucas_> After the reboot, how does the installer determines the packages he has to install ?
<lucas_> (and which module of the installer does this work ?)
<daniel_lunch> lucas_, i guess it's the ubuntu-*-packages it installs
<__daniel> but i'm no ubuntu developer
<lucas_> root@dell ~ # dpkg -l ubuntu-*-packages
<lucas_> Aucun paquet ne correspond  ubuntu-*-packages.
<thom> bsae-config is the package that does the work after the first reboot
<__daniel> dpkg -l | grep ^"ii  ubuntu" ---> ubuntu-artwork, ubuntu-base, ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-sounds
<lucas_> thanks
<lucas_> I don't understand why dpkg -l ubuntu-* fails to list them
<__daniel> because it literally looks for "ubuntu-*"
<Keybuk> lucas_: dselect update
<__daniel> ubuntu-desktop and ubuntu-base should imho suffice
<T-Bone> lucas_: maybe 'dpkg -l "ubuntu-*"'
<lucas_> __daniel:               dpkg -l | --list package-name-pattern ...
<lucas_>                   List packages matching given pattern.
<T-Bone> with the quotes
<T-Bone> otherwise your shell expands the "*"
<lucas_> T-Bone: I thought of that
<T-Bone> but i guess that's more a #ubuntu discussion
<lucas_> I'll install ubuntu-desktop, thanks
<lucas_> yeah, now it is :)
<__daniel> T-Bone, i didnt want to leave it unanswered
<lucas_> (btw dpkg -l "ubuntu-*" is still broken. never mind.)
<T-Bone> [varenet@daffy ~] $ dpkg -l "ubuntu-*" | grep ii
<T-Bone> ii  ubuntu-artwork 0.2.11-1       Ubuntu themes and artwork
<Keybuk> lucas_: dselect update
<lucas_> Keybuk: did it
<lucas_> ok, found the problem
<Keybuk> you should be able to dpkg -l on available but not installed then
<lucas_> wrong xterm
<lucas_> I just won the price
* lucas_ is going to ban himself from #ubuntu-devel for the next few months ;)
<lucas_> bye
<elmo> has anyone had any problems with postgres and HT?
<elmo> (does anyone even use postgres in warty with a HT machine?)
<T-Bone> lol
* Keybuk warms rookery up a little *cackle*
<sivang> elmo : do you want someone to use it ? :)
<sivang> elmo : I'll install it right away if you need
<Kamion> people have confirmed ipw2100/ipw2200 to work in the installer, haven't they?
* Kamion eyes http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport
<mdz> lamont: so, live CD
<mdz> lamont: what has changed since last night?
<mdz> Kamion: they have?
<mdz> it appeared in the list, but I didn't actually test bringing it up
<mdz> I'll do that in my next test
<Kamion> thanks
<sabdfl> Kamion: ipw2200 is still busted on the test laptop, but stays busted even with a compile of the latest module and firmware
<sabdfl> bizarrely it did work at one stage but i haven't had the bandwidth to keep up
<lamont> mdz: 20041019-03 had the newest kernel, -ttf-baekmuk.  20041019-18 is +ttf-bakemuk -win.celestia
<mdz> lamont: what about the sound issue?
<mdz> Oct 18 18:11:00 <lamont>        mdz: building a new liveCD candidate for you: updated sound detection (we hope...), and slight changes to look more like base/supported seeds
<mdz> lamont: was that 1019-03?
<lamont> yep
<lamont> so it's pester alex time
<lamont> but not in IM. :-(
<mako> are we goig to need another release announcment?
<mako> i think the delta from the RC announcment will be relatively small
<lamont> mdz: But I'd like to push 1019-03 to ubuntu-users for exposure, with the caveat that sound is likely busted
<mdz> lamont: absolutely, you said you were doing that last night
<mdz> mako: yes, we are
<mdz> sabdfl: should we hype up the final release announcement a bit, now that it's not vapour?
<lamont> mdz: was waiting for a boot check, got that this AM, wondered if anyone wanted to review the mail to u-u before I sent it...
<mdz> hmm, we're in DWN this week
<mdz> due to this: http://www.advogato.org/person/mbanck/diary.html?start=24
<Kamion> seb128: gataxx is still broken on amd64; I've got it network-connected now so I'm trying to debug
<mako> it was a pretty good writeup
<mako> i'm glad DWN picked it up :)
<lamont> Kamion: can you fix the iso/bt info?  looks like Thom got the wrong image...
<mako> azeem: good work sir :)
<mdz> mako: agreed
<Kamion> lamont: no, he didn't put it on little
<lamont> it's on cdimage.
<Kamion> lamont: which means it will very likely be deleted next cdimage sync
<Kamion> lamont: cdimage == auckland
<lamont> you want to put it on little and sync?
<lamont> or is that really a thombot thing?
<seb128> Kamion: still segfault ?
<Kamion> yup, grabbing now
<lamont> p.u.o/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/current/warty-live-i386-20041019-18.iso
<seb128> weird I've tested the fix on an amd64 box it was ok
<Kamion> seb128: right
<Kamion> lamont: what's broken with the image again?
<lamont> you mean known bugs?
<lamont> the image he grabbed won't fit on a 650MB CD.
<Kamion> lamont: no, "fix the iso/bt info" <-- that
<Kamion> oh, I just need to refresh it?
<lamont> yes
<Kamion> ok
<lamont> might not hurt to give it some more version-ish infrastreucture than sounder-test/live/warty-live-i386.iso, too.
<Kamion> yup, I'll give it the same filename you did
<Kamion> won't bother with anything more involved for this
* lamont updates his announcement
<mdz> lamont: acpid is not running on the live CD
<mdz> that means no totally rad laptop support
<thom> lamont: i got the one you told me to
<lamont> thom:yeah, I screwed up the symlink
<lamont> mdz: is that RC?
<thom> putting it on little will be the best bet going forward
<Kamion> thom: did you exclude /sounder-test/live/ from syncage or something?
<mdz> lamont: not a showstopper, but it should be on the list
<Kamion> I did a sync-mirrors but it doesn't seem to be appearing
<lamont> mdz: right
<lamont> but this sync means that I can drop the ttf-baekmuk issue
<Kamion> gtk_gridboard_clear_pixmaps (widget=0x607d20) at gtkgridboard.c:530
<Kamion> 530                             gridboard->pixmaps[x] [y] =get_pixmap_num(EMPTY);
<Kamion> seb128: ^-
<thom> Kamion: it's probably root owned
<thom> one sec
<Kamion> seb128: gridboard->pixmaps[x]  is NULL
<lamont> mdz: I could just file bugs for some of them...  do we have a LiveCD component yet?
<mdz> lamont: just file them against whatever and assign to alextreme
<lamont> right
<mdz> lamont: did you verify that -celestia +ttf-baekmuk was <=650M?
<seb128> Kamion: you have the crash when you run it ?
<Kamion> seb128: yes
<thom> Kamion: ownership changed
<seb128> arg
<Kamion> seb128: you called the patch .crash
<seb128> Kamion: I've named the patch .crash instead of .patch
<Kamion> :-)
<seb128> damnit
<seb128> Kamion: I'll fix it now
* Kamion does a test build to verify
<seb128> still a time to do an upload ?
<Kamion> Trying patch debian/patches/01_gridboard.patch at level 0...1...2...failure.
<Kamion> mdz: does seb128 have time?
<Kamion> seb128: you missed out a leading space from the 'for' line
<seb128> yeah, I've fixed it here
<amu> lamont: new iso is ready ? 
<seb128> ready to upload if we have time
<Kamion> seb128: I'd just go, don't think new artwork has been uploaded anyway
<amu> ...live-iso 
<lamont> mdz: yes.
<lamont> mdz: issue was I had a bad symlink, and thom fetched the wrong iso.  hence explicit naming is a good thing,.
<seb128> Kamion: ok
<Kamion> thom: syncing again
<lamont> amu: as soon as kamion/thom get done with it, it'll be at   http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/sounder-test/live/warty-live-i386-20041019-18.iso.torrent
<lamont> (or without the .torrent)
<lamont> amu: how's your overall bandwidth situation?
<Kamion> lamont,amu: done, with .torrent
<lamont> net bandwidth
<Kamion> seb128: works for me with those changes
<seb128> ok, cool
<amu> ok d'l ... takes 30min.
<mdz> amu: lamont mentioned you had compiled a list of live CD issues, could you send me a copy?
<amu> mdz: a very quick & dirty thing, i tested it from the view as a user. There are many many more things :)      
<seb128> mdz: still time for the gnome-games fixe ?
<mdz> seb128: bug#?
<Kamion> seb128: #2345
<Kamion> oops
<Kamion> mdz: ^-
<Kamion> patch wasn't applied properly
<seb128> mdz: it's closed, I've missnamed the .patch and it didn't get applied
<mdz> seb128: ok, quickly
<seb128> thanks
<seb128> done
<amu> mdz: send
<mdz> amu: I haven't received anything via email, but lamont gave me a summary on IRC
<lamont> mdz: those were the RC bugs I gave you..
<mdz> that's all I'm interested in at this time
<lamont> ok.  just forwarded amu's mail to @a.n
<amu> Oct 19 20:40:42 bofh postfix/smtp[14768] : BBA518632A: to=<mdz@canonical.com>, relay=fiordland.warthogs.hbd.com[82.211.81.145] , delay=2, status=sent (250 Ok: queued as 35238B6801B)
<lamont> just in case you want to upgrade any of them
<pitti> sjoerd: easy fix, he was not in the plugdev group :-)
<sjoerd> pitti: ah
* lamont must run a quick errand.  bbiab
<amu> mdz: you need more input for hoary ?
<mdz> amu: ?
<amu> bug ( usability ) reports 
<sivang> strange,
<sivang> i get rejected by tracker error when trying to download lamont
<mdz> amu: warty is our highest priority right now
<sivang> 's new iso
<amu> mdz: did you get my mail now ? 
<sivang> anybody a clue?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 13 (count 'em) major bugs | BE THE SIGNAL | Warty release is TOMORROW
<mdz> amu: no
<amu> mdz: stange, my log told me, it's delivered, kick your postmaster *g* 
<mdz> amu: there are 4 hops between your relay and me
<amu> ..ooO my homenet 
<sivang> hi enrico!
<mako> enrico: hey there
<enrico> sivang: hello!
<sivang> enrico : finally got my network working
<gma> anybody had any experiences of getting black screens when running X on a dell laptop? even my old (working) config file doesn't seem to make any difference
<gma> (otherwise, I'm a new user and love it)
<gma> I plugged a monitor into my laptop and could get X working fine, so it might be something to do with the 1400x1050 TFT.
<gma> I'm asking on here as I thought some of you guys might be interested in more info, which I'd happily provide if you told me what needs doing. the laptop is a few years old though (inspiron 5000), so may not be a priority for warty...
<madduck> hi... can someone tell me why http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaintainerCandidates is "immutable"?
<madduck> i wanted to add myself...
<sivang> madduck : have you created a login?
<sivang> madduck : you need to create a wiki name / login before
<chrisa|dl> What does ubuntu use in place of debian's 'menu' package?
<madduck> okay. makes sense. i missed the tiny buttons on the top.
<sivang> madduck : I'm sure it happend to everyone at start :)
<sivang> any of the desktop gurus, has the app switcher thingy that used to exist on the right upper corner been custumized removed from Ubuntu Desktop?
<sivang> (i can't find it)
<chrisa|dl> It's called "Window Selector" isn't it?
<sivang> yes it is
<sivang> sorry for that
<sivang> :)
<chrisa|dl> heh, your turn. I notice applications like gvim seem to get no menu entry
<enrico> mako: around?
<thom> chrisa|dl: yes, we're trying to keep the number of things in the menu as minimal as possible
<chrisa|dl> thom: I figured as much
<chrisa|dl> It never occurred to me that gnome seems to lack a simple menu editting interface
<pitti> chrisa|dl: what about applications:///
<mako> enrico: yes, i'm around
<mako> enrico: was taking a shower :)
<Kamion> mdz: I've uploaded jigit. OK to add to Supported?
<Kamion> it's managed to grab an ISO correctly for me
<mdz> Kamion: yes
<Kamion> done
* doogie looks for ubuntu developers/maintainers who are also debian maintainers
<thom> crikey, it's the #debian-devel invasion
<doogie> that's not the reason I joined.
<thom> no, but the grouping was scary :-)
<doogie> you're on #debian-devel, so can see my messages
<thom> doogie: there are quite a number of ubuntu maintainers who are d-ds
<doogie> yes, I know.
<amu> $"%$!$! I need once a time a year a printer, exactly then it does not run
<Kamion> mdz: did Keybuk tell you what he was doing with his ubuntu-artwork packages?
<mdz> Kamion: no
<mdz> is he asleep?
<Kamion> apparently so
* lamont returns
* Kamion is tempted to ring him and try to wake him up
<Kamion> 19:55 < Keybuk> right, I'm going to crash
<Kamion> 19:56 -!- Keybuk [scott@descent.netsplit.com]  has quit ["Leaving"] 
<seb128> "  * prepared and uploaded new ubuntu-artwork package"
<seb128> perhaps the upload got rejected ?
<Kamion> must have done ...
<chrisa> Does ubuntu have something similar to packages.debian.org?
<lamont> chrisa: not exactly...
<Kamion> it *seems* to be in chinstrap:~scott/
* Kamion ponders dputting that, but I think I should test it first :)
<chrisa> lamont: hrm, any easy way to check if a package is in the archive without having apt handy?
<lamont> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/buildLogs/Lists has wanna-build dumps
<lamont> and the log files are under buildLogs/....
<doogie> is there a list of all existing ubuntu maintainers?
<lamont> doogie: dunno if that's on the wiki yet or not
<doogie> why would it be on a wiki?
<lamont> because everything else is?
<Kamion> we have nowhere else convenient to put it :)
<doogie> link from the website?
<Kamion> the wiki is where we do this sort of thing
<lamont> chrisa: the w-b output is, of course, by source package
<amu> lamont: http://amu.debian.net/tmp/linux.png
<lamont> amu: ew
<lamont> did anyone see my mail to ubuntu-users?
* lamont considers the day when his mail server won't require a keyboard
* Kamion gets in touch with Keybuk; I'll take care of the u-a upload, since I now know what to do
<mako> how about a minimum system req faq entry
* Kamion promises not to fall victim to the ubuntu-artwork falling-asleep curse :)
<enrico> About the Wiki: can I make hierarchical wiki links in this MoinMoin?  If yes, what is the syntax?
<mako> enrico: you can make pages with /'s in them
<enrico> mako: So, a link like Foo/Bar will work and be regognized?
<mako> enrico: yes, if you do the link specification stuff
<enrico> mako: k, thanks!
<chrisa> So if ubuntu took a snapshot of sid to start out before applying package modifications and such, how are credits with the original debian package maintainers handled?
<Kamion> chrisa: can you clarify what you mean?
<chrisa> Kamion: I think I answered my own question by looking in the buildd logs. I was curious how the Maintainer: field was being handled on packages taken from sid
<chrisa> Looks like Warty/${ARCH} Build Daemon becomes the maintainer
<lamont> chrisa: see also the Maintainer field on any non-maintainer-uploaded arch in debian
<chrisa> lamont: yeah, that was silly of me
<Kamion> chrisa: not quite ...
<Kamion> chrisa: Maintainer: in debian/control != Maintainer: in .changes files
<Kamion> chrisa: we leave the former alone
<chrisa> Kamion: As lamont pointed out, I misread ;)
<Kamion> chrisa: the latter always refers to the entity handling the upload, not the package maintainer
<Kamion> ok :)
<chrisa> So 'technically' I maintain some ubuntu packages till someone else updates them ;)
<lamont> chrisa: even then, you maintain them.
<lamont> ubuntu doesn't really have a concept of an individual owning a piece of codde
<Kamion> we add ourselves to the top of debian/changelog, so Changed-By: differs, but apart from that ...
<lamont> hence we don't mess with debian/control's maintainer: field
<chrisa> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how ubuntu snapshots sid then
<Kamion> we take a copy of all sid's source packages
<lamont> chrisa: for warty, it was "take a snapshot of all the source packages, as of 2004-06-28.  Now build them from source to produce binaries".
<chrisa> ah, so it's something that will occur again in the future
<chrisa> I was thinking it behaved more like a fork for some reason
<lamont> well, hoary needs to take the latest sid + warty diffs.  the best technical/time-effective way to do that is still the subject of a little discussion
<chrisa> Last stupid question, is multiverse part of universe?
<lamont> so the base for release N is current sid, with the diffs from release N-1 merged in.
<lamont> multiverse is beyond universe
<chrisa> lamont: That clears that up, thanks
<lamont> thank you Robert A Heinlein.
<lamont> multiverse was the term he coined to include a multitude of universes.
<lamont> so universe is the rest of debian main, multiverse contains things from contrib & non-free, and possibly others
<chrisa> So for instance, the recent mplayer upload is in multiverse
<lamont> for instance.
<Kamion> BUGGER
<Kamion> thom: around? need help uploading
<thom> Kamion: um?
<Kamion> thom: there's a half-complete copy of ubuntu-artwork in the upload queue, which I can't overwrite
<thom> k, just gonna delete the lot
<thom> gone
<chrisa> Kamion / lamont: thanks
<Kamion> thom: thanks
<Kamion> hooray
<Kamion> sabdfl: new artwork uploaded and hopefully building
<lamont> chrisa: np
<sabdfl> Kamion: whoop! thanks
<mdz> Kamion: aha, thanks
<lamont> Kamion: and you made the :00 cutoff, too.
<thom> looks like scott uploaded a deb as well, and that make katie throw her toys out of the pram
<Kamion> w00t
<Kamion> thom: ah ... that explains it
<thom> uh, s/make/made
<thom> me spoke english real good. can do tenses 
<Kamion> you it learn from a book!
<lamont> thom: tentses
<Kamion> <JAG> rjk: are you getting bored of filling in all the sections of
<Kamion> Component Build mails? ;-)
<Kamion> <rjk> i find your use of the present tense puzzling
<Kamion> <JAG> Oh dear.  Which tenses do you know?
* __daniel laugh hardly
<thom> lamont: are those like toeses?
<lamont> thom: you sleeps in tentses
<lamont> you stands on toeses
<thom> Kamion: *giggle*
<lamont> Kamion: lol
<enrico> What installation methods are supported for Ubuntu?  From CD, from Network, from USB key, from floppy, from magnetic tape, from windows installshield and... ?
<Kamion> enrico: CD, network, and we sort of support cross-installing from another Unix system with debootstrap
<Kamion> USB key definitely for Hoary, maybe floppy too
<enrico> Kamion: "sort of support" means that it shouldn't be documented, I guess?
<Kamion> well, no, I believe it works and the documentation is useful
<Kamion> there's no time to change the installation manual further for warty, BTW
<enrico> Kamion: don't worry, I'm not going to do that
<Kamion> it's part of the debian-installer package, and rebuilding that is human-time-expensive
<enrico> Kamion: I was just taking notes for a quickstart guide
<enrico> Kamion: that can reference the install guide for more info
<Kamion> when I say "sort of support" I just mean that I haven't tested it all the way through to bringing up an Ubuntu desktop
<Kamion> the first stage certainly works
<Kamion> it may require tweaking post-install, though, since it won't do everything that our d-i does.
<Kamion> thom: do you have any idea about the firefox/j2sdk questions being asked on #ubuntu?
<enrico> Kamion: I'll leave out the debootstrap for those notes, then.  The idea (as I posted to the list) is to have a quickstart that guides you all the way to subscribing to ubuntu-users, or ubuntu-welcome if we want
<Kamion> lamont: your mail's made it through now
<Kamion> enrico: we already have one of those, on the web site
<enrico> Kamion: Plus a troubleshooting part
<chrisa> crud, the installer didn't recognize any of the partitions on my WD 120GB drive (showed it as one volume, no partitions)
<enrico> Kamion: link?
<chrisa> There goes that idea
<Kamion> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/installation-i386
<Kamion> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/installation-amd64
<lamont> Kamion: amazing what plugging in a keyboard will do for that server. :(
<Kamion> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/howto/installation-powerpc
<enrico> Kamion: thanks!
<__daniel> Kamion, someone in ubuntu-de said it didn't countain libjavaplugin_oji.so - but he maybe was referring to another java thingie
<__daniel> Kamion, which package were you talking about?
<Kamion> enrico: it's not quite as far as you mentioned, but it's clearly the document where that sort of thing should live
<Kamion> __daniel: I don't know anything about this, I was just asking thom about it since he did most of our recent firefox work
<mdz> Kamion: are we waiting for u-artwork to build, currently?
<__daniel> Kamion: right, i'll just ask the guy again
<enrico> Kamion: are those pages modifiable?
<Kamion> mdz: yep
<Kamion> enrico: don't know, to be honest; I'd talk to silbs/lu when they're around, or mail ubuntu-devel@
<mdz> Kamion: well-rested, I hope? :-)
<enrico> Kamion: ok, thanks, I'll write to the list
<Kamion> mdz: does five hours sleep last night count?
<mdz> Kamion: no
<mdz> Kamion: feel like a nap?  could be a long night
<Kamion> I suspect I will try to grab some tonight rather than do the all-nighter thing again
<mdz> do we have a target for the launch time?
<thom> Kamion: not on #ubuntu
<Kamion> ah
<thom> Kamion: afaik, you need a j2re, which should contain the plugin
<thom> then you need to smack that into /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/plugins or similar
<__daniel> Kamion, he didn't download a .deb - so it couldn't work
<Kamion> just asking him about plugins now
<__daniel> (because it didnt contain the plugin thingie)
<thom> note i've never done it
<thom> i've had quite enough java contamination from sys admin work, no need for more on my desktop :-)
<lamont> mdz: I will need to be away tonight from ~1630 until 2200 local time (MDT/-0600), although I may be able to skip out on the last half of that.  Beyond that, I figure I'm around all night.
<Mitario> does anyone know a working email addy for michael vogt? (pm)
<thom> Mitario: Michael Vogt <mvo@debian.org>
<mdz> Kamion: new ubuntu-artwork is in
<Kamion> I was just about to check that
<__daniel> good night
<Kamion> am I OK to start the CD build?
<mdz> Kamion: yes
<Kamion> alrighty, they're on their way
<jdub> hold on
<Kamion> uh?
<jdub> only uploading it now
<Kamion> what?
<lamont> jdub woke up?
<jdub> i'm uploading all the artwork packages atm
<mdz> jdub: hold on
<Kamion> jdub: we already uploaded an ubuntu-artwork with the new images as best we could, you'll need to sync with those
<mdz> jdub: an ubuntu-artwork has already been uploaded
<jdub> oh
<Kamion> am I to ctrl-C this build?
<mdz> hold your fire
<mdz> Kamion: nah
<mdz> no harm in having a fresh build
<Kamion> I don't mind if something supersedes that, but we needed to get something into the archive and didn't know when you'd be around
<jdub> heh, morning .au time doesn't sound unlikely ;)
<Kamion> we're already two or three hours behind the time this build was supposed to be ready
<Kamion> anyway, Keybuk did these packages, but he's gone to sleep now; is more tweaking still required?
<jdub> well, i consider these the gold release versions
<Kamion> ok
<Kamion> I'm off to Kirsten's for a little bit, will be back by the time the new packages are in the archive
<lamont> speaking of artwork...
<lamont> jdub: any more changes for liveCD grub?
<jdub> lamont: how did it look?
<lamont> likewise, clues on how to replace the gnome footprint with somethign else?
<jdub> oh, stupid arrow bars
<jdub> which one?
<lamont> jdub: did you mean for the virtical bars to be multicolored?
<jdub> no
<lamont> people.u.o/~lamont/jdub-grub.jpg
<jdub> yeah, saw earlier
<jdub> it uses the scrollbar arrows for the bar for some reason
<jdub> but it's in the same format as the morphix one
<lamont> looks OK to me...
<jdub> with that arrow problem, it's bong
<lamont> gnome splash == the one that says "gnome 2.8" with a footprint, or has the ubuntu logo covering the blonde...
<lamont> that splash
<jdub> if that is still appearing on the livecd, we have a problem
<lamont> the one on the livecd says "gnome2.8"
<lamont> which is still a problem, of course.
<jdub> because gnome-session's gconf schema defaults to the u-a symlink
<jdub> what does 'grep -A 3 splash_image /etc/gconf/schemas/gnome-session.schemas' say on the livecd?
<lamont> booting
<lamont> also, still have the globe in the center of the screen shot for the boot splash.
<jdub> ugh
#ubuntu-devel 2004-10-31
<lamont>          <default>splash/ubuntu-splash.png</default>
<lamont> which is the nekid ppl, so it's just as well that it's b0rke
* lamont decides that he needs to bag at least his 4:30, but will need to run out for a few minutes nearer 7:00 local
<mdz> jdub: what's the status of the gold artwork packages for the CD?
<jdub> mdz: uploaded
<jdub> being tested atm
<lamont> jdub: it's clearly showing gnome-splash.png
<lamont> any chance that it just doesn't like the symlink?
<jdub> that'd be livecd specific
<alextreme> i'm sure it is. annoying issue, especially as it did work in earlier builds
<lamont> jdub: what should we be using in place of the globe shot for bootsplash?
<jdub> sabdfl/jane/i chose circle of friends background last week
<jdub> sabdfl: your call on changing that one :)
<lamont> currently have http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/background.png
<sabdfl> ok guys, which image should we use for livecd boot splash?
<sabdfl> my vote is the new gdm login (Human)
<sabdfl> without the login
<lamont> url?
<sabdfl> would look good with the orange / yello progress bar
<alextreme> indeed, would be a nice choice
<lamont> alextreme: is that also 15-index?
<alextreme> no, thats the 16bit 1024x768 jpg
<alextreme> ubuntulinux.org had it on the frontpage last time i checked
<lamont> alextreme: I mean that we need
<lamont> the package currently has a very small .png
<alextreme> which one? the gfxboot theme?
<sabdfl> i have the image, can convert it
<lamont> morphix-wathog-background
<sabdfl> save as 1024x768 png?
<sabdfl> anything special in the save?
<chrisa> Can the d-i version on the ubuntu discs install the base system without requiring the user use the partitioner (ie: I mount / to /target manually) ?
<alextreme> lamont: afaik that isn't even used
<jdub> sabdfl: mmm, bright :)
<lamont> alextreme: then where does it get that image?
<sabdfl> want me to tone it down a shade?
<alextreme> lamont: from ubuntu-artwork
<alextreme> lamont: and the miniroot gets it from the bootsplash udeb package
<lamont> alextreme: ah, cool.
* lamont gets his archive current and builds another home-edition
<sabdfl> alextreme: it needs the ubuntu log layered over the top
<sabdfl> will send you a version directly, or should it go to lamont?
<sabdfl> just save as png, or do i need to do something special?
* lamont will be building
<lamont> just need to know where to put it...
<alextreme> sabdfl: bootsplash only uses jpg afaik
<alextreme> and indeed, lamont has more use of it
<Kamion> chrisa: not sure, in theory it might be possible to mount /target etc. by hand but I've never tried it
<Kamion> chrisa: feel free to try it, but you may run into a few issues
<chrisa> Kamion: I just recall d-i having a way to skip the partitioner, however I can't recall how
<Kamion> chrisa: d-i might have had that a long time ago, but not recently
<Kamion> chrisa: you'll have to hack something to persuade main-menu to stop trying to run the partitioner due to udeb dependencies
<lamont> file background.png 
<lamont> background.png: JPEG image data, JFIF standard 1.01
<lamont> you tell me....
<Kamion> chrisa: is running the partitioner actively harmful?
<chrisa> Kamion: What seems to be a bug in parted is keeping it from seeing partitions on my main drive
<mjg59> Kamion: Bleah, I utterly failed to be organised enough to sort out getting that laptop off you today
<Kamion> can you run the partitioner and do nothing in it?
<mjg59> When's good for you?
<chrisa> fdisk can see the partitions, booting to debian and trying parted there has the same trouble
<Kamion> mjg59: I'm still up, about to go out briefly anyway, if you're still up then I can come over
<chrisa> Kamion: It will then complain no root is specified
<Kamion> chrisa: true, that just occurred to me too
<Kamion> I'd attempt to hack /var/lib/dpkg/status but this is an expert option :)
<alextreme> lamont: i guess that kind of .png would work too :)
<mjg59> Kamion: Ok, I guess that works - are you driving? If not, it seems a bit far to go out of your way
<Kamion> driving, yes
<Kamion> about to go see if Tesco's still open
<mjg59> Ah, ok :)
<mjg59> If that's not a problem, then that'd be cool
<mjg59> I'm at 6 Petworth Street
<mjg59> Don't suppose you have a spare piece of cat 5, too? :)
<Kamion> think so, yes
<Kamion> shortish
<Kamion> I forgot to do the install, do you need a CD?
<mjg59> Urgh. yes, if possible - I lent mine to someone and haven't got it back
<doko> mdz, jdub: mvo just pointed out to me, that two ISDN related packages would be really nice to have on the CD ... pppdcapiplugin and isdnactivecards. I know, very late.
<sabdfl> so png or jpg?
<lamont> jpg
<Mitario> yay! is it tomorrow already?
<Mitario> :p
* Mitario fades back into the background again
<sabdfl> lamont: png would be better quality, can it handle either?
<jdub> doko: i don't want to change anything like that at this stage, even additions to the cd
<lamont> sabdfl: really no idea
<lamont> as it sits, the old globe-centered thing was 28KB of jpg
<lamont> in a file named background.png
<sabdfl> nice
<lamont> I could sure try png first
<sabdfl> will send you both
<lamont> k
<mvo_> jdub: I certainly understand that. the problem for people using isdn is, that they won't be able to connect to the internet without those two packages. but I'm also very nervous about a change like this
<lamont> sabdfl: if you sent them, I didn't see them...
<sabdfl> just coming up now
<jdub> mvo_: wish we'd known earlier, there are a bunch of things like that on the cd
<lamont> ok
<mvo_> jdub: ok
<lamont> and liveCD is pretty much ENOSPC....
<lamont> really really at risk to add anything else
<lamont> alextreme: mdz poke you about sound?
<Kamion> at some point we have to declare "out of time"
<sabdfl> lamont: should be there now
<lamont> email?
<alextreme> lamont: about alsa probing?
<sabdfl> mvo_: do those packages affect anything in the install?
<lamont> I think so
<sabdfl> can't touch the installer
<Kamion> those two packages are not in warty currently
<mvo_> yes, they are universe
<alextreme> lamont: didn't you get my jabber msg last night? I uploaded a new version of morphix-base-conf with reversed loading, but wasn't sure if it worked
<sabdfl> lamont: they arrive?
<sabdfl> 100kb jpg, 280kb png
<lamont> sabdfl: can you toss them somewhere wget'able/scp able
<Kamion> mvo_: as I understand it, elmo is currently travelling, which means we'd need to push the CD builds *way* back in order to add new packages from universe.
<Kamion> (since they need to be moved into a different component)
<sabdfl> lamont: scp chinstrap.warthogs.hbd.com:~mark/livecdsplash.* .
<sabdfl> elmo's here
<Kamion> ah
<mvo_> Kamion: ok
<lamont> greylisting delayed the mail on fiordland
<lamont> prettiful
<doko> jdub: trying to set my background: the application "gnome-background-properties" did unexpectedly terminate.
<seb128> doko: 
<seb128>  ubuntu-artwork (0.2.14-1) warty; urgency=low
<seb128>  .
<seb128>    * Avoid tweaking idiotic background crasher with wallpapers.xml
<seb128> doko: you probably want this
<jdub> yeah, it gives you the love
<doko> find it on chinstrap as well?
<jdub> yeah
<lamont> jdub: another ubuntu-artwork??? sigh
<jdub> heh
<chrisa> 'idiotic background crasher' ?
<lamont> source uploaded?
<jdub> the wallpaper xml tweaked a bug in the background capplet code
<jdub> making it crash
<jdub> lamont: yeah
<lamont> but less than 26 minutes ago,eh?
<jdub> yeah
* lamont conceives of a plan to snatch the binaries once they build
<mdz> lamont: ETA for ubuntu-artwork 0.2.14-1?
<lamont> build starts in about 2 minutes, in archive at :33
<lamont> although elmo could slamdunk cron.daily anytime after about :10 and it should be there..
<azeem> mako: thanks
<mdz> elmo: slamdunk?
<lamont> the truly impatient will find the .deb at http://people.u.o/~lamont/ubuntu-artwork_0.2.14-1_all.deb
<lamont> elmo was driving across england earlier, has he arrived?
<Kamion> apparently
<lamont> dupload done, should be accepted in 30 se
<lamont> c
<lamont> then it could be slamdunked
<mdz> lamont: <sabdfl> elmo's here
<lamont> ah, well. the
<lamont> n
<sabdfl> lamont: should be done in about 3 minutes
<lamont> alextreme: /tmp/modules-rev.pcimap No such file
<lamont> alextreme: that's with 0.5-18 morphix-base-conf
<sabdfl> lamont, Kamion: artwork should be visible now
<alextreme> lamont: doh, yet another shameless bug. wait a sec
<lamont> "carrousel begins..."
<alextreme> lamont: available for now on m.org/incoming, will be synced soon. literally a one-char fix
<lamont> -19?
<alextreme> yup
<mdz> Kamion: that countrychooser weirdness didn't happen to me before
<mdz> this is on a recent daily
<jdub> sabdfl: i'm going to leave pretty descriptions for the calendar packages up to you
<jdub> sabdfl: need a one-liner and one-paragrapher for ubuntu-calendar
<jdub> sabdfl: and something generic we can use for ubuntu-calendar-<month>
<Kamion> mdz: fairly certain nothing's changed there though ...
<Kamion> mdz: oh, there was the "/etc/environmment" fix, I guess
<Kamion> that fixed a different bug
<Kamion> but in any case I don't see that it would have affected this
* Kamion starts another CD build
* thom goes to bed
* lamont screams, bangs head against wall
<mdz> Kamion,jdub,sabdfl: is this the one?
<Kamion> mdz: depends whether you think the en_US thing's a showstopper
<mdz> Kamion: depends on whether it happens with the new CD build :-)
<Kamion> my question is more why it didn't happen before
<mdz> I am clueless on that point
<mdz> I didn't even notice it when I tested the CD
<mdz> because I didn't run perl from the command line until now
<Kamion> I don't think it'll break anything, just generate warnings
<Kamion> en_US is lucky to be close enough to C for most things that you tend not to notice locale problems
<Kamion> I don't even know why LANGUAGE is set at all, to be honest
<mdz> neither do I
<mdz> I don't think it was previously
<Kamion> if it turns out to be a showstopper I'm half-inclined to delete it, but the possible consequences are numerous and hard to test
<Kamion> at least in base-config
<mdz> maybe gdm mangles it
<Kamion> it could be that base-config used to mangle it
<Kamion> it has been set for a long time
<Kamion> anyway, I'm going over to mjg59's, back soon
<sabdfl> mdz: let's tread very carefully at this point ;-)
<mdz> sabdfl: hmm?
<sabdfl> changes on the night of release
<sabdfl> what's this new one about?
<sabdfl> i haven't seen it
<mdz> I don't suggest that we change it even if it is an installer bug
<mdz> I just ended up with some broken stuff in /etc/environment for locale settings
<sabdfl> consequence?
<mdz> the worst of it is ~5 lines of spew from perl every time it's invoked
<mdz> which means ~50 lines of spew from an apt run
<sabdfl> every apt run?
<sabdfl> for all users?
<mdz> perl: warning: Setting locale failed.
<mdz> perl: warning: Please check that your locale settings:
<mdz>         LANGUAGE = "en_GB:en_US:en",
<mdz>         LC_ALL = (unset),
<mdz>         LC_COLLATE = "C",
<mdz>         LANG = "en_US.UTF-8"
<mdz>     are supported and installed on your system.
<mdz> perl: warning: Falling back to the standard locale ("C").
<mdz> only ones where a maintainer script uses perl
<mdz> which is, well, most of them
<mdz> I'm not going to panic unless it's still this way after a fresh install
<sabdfl> if it is, let's delay release long enough to have a good nights sleep on it
<jdub> mdz: seems like it is
<jdub> fresh install from last night
<jdub> might be wrong
<mdz> see, this is what happens when I take the weekend off :-P
<jdub> can do another install
<mdz> jdub: what's in yours?
<mdz> LANG="en_US"
<mdz> LANGUAGE="en_GB:en_US:en"
<jdub> jdub@ubuntu:~ $ cat /etc/environment LANGUAGE="en_AU:en_GB:en_US:en"
<jdub> LANG=en_AU
<mdz> shit
<chrisa> It'll be amazing if this ubuntu system boots
* chrisa did so much hacking around in the installer
<jdub> mdz: not getting any spew
<sabdfl> chrisa: any interesting mods?
<mdz> jdub: perhaps because you have en_AU
<mdz> jdub: while I do not have en_GB
<mdz> jdub: what's in /etc/locale.gen?
<jdub> aha
<jdub> jdub@ubuntu:~ $ cat /etc/locale.gen
<jdub> en_AU ISO-8859-1
* lamont isolates the bootsplash issue, deals with it.
<mdz> I think this is probably caused by the fix for #2195
<lamont> sabdfl: btw, 16-bit colors, /me converted
<lamont> jdub: would me running in 16-bit space explain the gnome-splash picking the wrong one?
* mjg59 obtains the craptop
<mjg59> It's so crap it can't even scale 640x480 to 1024x768 without making a huge mess
<lamont> that's not the C3 pos, is it?
<mjg59> Yeah
<lamont> sigh
<jdub> lamont: no
<mjg59> If I can get ACPI working on this, we are obviously destined to win
<lamont> jdub: well, hope springs eternal and all that.. :-(
<mjg59> Ooh, it's got a nipples install
<chrisa> sabdfl: Just a bunch of hacks so I could get around the partitioner
<lamont> new and improved builds running (home and DC), with hopefully correct art, and maybe even sound
<sabdfl> mjg59: think of it as a challenge more than a gift :-)
<sabdfl> lamont: to jpg, or png?
<lamont> 1024x768, 16-bit jpeg only
<Kamion> mdz: the safest fix I can think of is to prepend LANG to LANGUAGE
<Mitario> i love hacky mockup coding
<sabdfl> ok, how's it look?
<mjg59> That's interesting
<lamont> looked good on the machine where I changed it.  We'll see what the laptop says.
<mjg59> I hadn't previously noticed that the craptop had two sets of volume keys
<Kamion> mjg59: realised I forgot to set a useful password for you, but I assume you booted recovery and got on with life
<lamont> btw, when I'm scrounging surplus stores looking for a G3 or later, what kind of price should I be expecting?
<mjg59> Kamion: Yeah, sorted
<Kamion> mdz: I have LANG=en_US and LANGUAGE=en_GB:en_US:en, but perl doesn't warn
<Kamion> install not finished yet
<Kamion> mdz: I note that you have LANG=en_US.UTF-8
<Kamion> mdz: did you definitely generate that locale?
<sabdfl> lamont: can you put the converted image up somewhere?
* sabdfl paraphrases kamion: "i assumed you wouldn't let the small matter of security hold you back"
<Kamion> when did I say that? :)
<lamont> p.u.o/~lamont/bootsplash-1024x768.jpg
<mdz> Kamion: yeah, I just noticed the same thing
<mdz> it's a false alarm
<mdz> I copied in a shell init file that set en_US.UTF-8
<mdz> Kamion: phew
* Kamion breathes a sigh of relief
<sabdfl> :-)
<Kamion> it's so rare to be able to put something down to mdz pilot error that I just didn't think of it at first :-)
<mdz> Kamion: I assume the candidate is /current/ now?
<sabdfl> mdz: you and your utf-8
* mdz hangs his head in shame
<Kamion> mdz: yes
<mdz> ok, downloading it
<mdz> will test all around
<sabdfl> ok, so release schedule tomorrow
<Kamion> note to world, actually going to bed this release
<Kamion> (I know it's not traditional)
<mdz> well, we missed 0000 UTC. what's our second choice? :-)
<lamont> Kamion: always a first time, eh>?
<sabdfl> Kamion: please do, take a friend :-)
<sabdfl> mdz, what's the earliest we can do tomorrow?
<mdz> lamont: live CD status?
* sabdfl wonders if mjg59 is looking at kamion in horror right now
<mdz> do we have a live CD release candidate?
<lamont> eta 8 minutes to a testing image
<lamont> at some point, well need to push the liveCD RC to little etc., which is beyond my scope...
<Kamion> mdz: if I'm crashed, '/srv/cdimage.no-name-yet.com/bin/cron.daily' should be sufficient to build a CD, no need for DATE_SUFFIX hacking like before.
<mdz> Kamion: ok, I'll likely stay up until you're awake
<Kamion> mdz: feel free to phone me if need be, it may wake me up :)
<alextreme> lamont: i have access to little, if Kamion is busy
<lamont> so does mdz, etc.
<Kamion> I'd like to be quite careful about where the live CD RC goes on little
<Kamion> a little extra scripting work may be required
<Kamion> (although hopefully not)
<mjg59> sabdfl: He's gone away again, thankfully...
<alextreme> i'll leave it to you then
<Kamion> sabdfl: are we calling the images in releases.ubuntu.com "warty-final-install-i386.iso", or what?
<Kamion> mjg59: I love you too
<lamont> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041020-01/warty-live-i386-20041020-01.iso
<sabdfl> Kamion: or warty-release?
<Kamion> sabdfl: fine by me
<sabdfl> mdz?
<mjg59> Kamion: If that were true, you wouldn't have given me this laptop
<mdz> final is fine with me
<mdz> as is release
<mdz> I'm easy
<sabdfl> release then
<elmo_> warty-easy-install-i386.iso
<sabdfl> got to :-)
<mjg59> warty-yes-yes-yes-oh-yes-i386.iso
<lamont> 642.4MB
<Kamion> elmo_: warty's not easy, she just has negotiable virtue
<sabdfl> mjg59: alas, those bits got censored
<mdz> so shall we test the candidates, then sleep on it and release in the morning?
<sabdfl> night all, see you in the morning
<mdz> or go out while you guys sleep? :-P
<lamont> hehe
<sabdfl> you test now, we'll test in the morning
<mdz> ok
<lamont> I like the release before they wake up idea...
<Kamion> definitely not allowed to release warty while I'm asleep :)
<sabdfl> Kamion: do you ever?
* lamont has wondered if sabdfl really sleeps
<Kamion> (if nothing else, publish-release is still a bit on the untested side)
<sabdfl> one eye open
<jdub> wget http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~jdub/ubuntu-calendar_4.10_all.deb http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~jdub/ubuntu-calendar-october_4.10_all.deb
<jdub> sabdfl: you wear a borg headset too? :)
<sabdfl> jdub: resistance is... fun, really
<Kamion> elmo_: will you have a chance to process jigit? mdz approved it for Supported
<mdz> I'd liek to nail down a time now
<mdz> so that I can arrange to be awake
<sabdfl> 1200 UTC has a nice ring to it
<sabdfl> mirrors should be synced if they are doing it every 6 hours
* mdz chokes
<elmo_> Kamion: hmmm, process it how?
<sabdfl> erm, sorry
<mdz> elmo_: NEW, I presume
<sabdfl> what UTC is 8am LA time?
<elmo_> jigit_1.14-1_source.changes
<elmo_> REJECT
<elmo_> Rejected: Unknown distribution `unstable'.
* lamont gently takes whatever the hell is grabbing udebs and shoots it in the head.
<Kamion> elmo_: bugger
<mdz> sabdfl: 8+7=15
<sabdfl> ok
<mdz> I can do 1200 UTC as well; it just means taking an early sleep
<sabdfl> work for you?
<mdz> yep
<sabdfl> ok, 15:00 UTC
<sabdfl> mdz: can you keep a phone handy? only elmo, kamion or me will call
<sabdfl> just in case
<Kamion> elmo_: 1.14-1ubuntu1 uploaded
<mdz> certainly
<sabdfl> otherwise, see you around 1400 UTC to get ready
* mdz tapes the phone to his ear and crawls into bed
<Mithrandir> sleep tight
<mjg59> Mm. Monkeypop.
<sabdfl> night all, for good this time
<sabdfl> well, for a few hours good
<lamont> this time with the correct artwork
<jdub> sabdfl: were you going to call?
<lamont> that's a bug I'm gonna have to hurt
<sabdfl> jdub: calendar worked first time
<elmo_> SKIP (too new)
<elmo_> Rejected: jigit_1.14-1ubuntu1.dsc refers to jigit_1.14.orig.tar.gz, but I can't find it in the queue or in the pool.
<sabdfl> jdub: yes, was tkaing the phone to bed
<Kamion> I suck
<jdub> kinky
<sabdfl> don't even think about it
<sabdfl> pants ON!
<Kamion> or dpkg-genchanges sucks, not sure which
* jdub goes to look for his pants
<elmo_> it doesn't think 1ubuntu1 == 1
<elmo_> which is fair enough, kind of
* Kamion uploads again with -sa this time
<azeem> only if ubuntu != 0 :)
<mdz> lamont: URL for live CD candidate?
<Kamion> except that it's already in the uploadqueue
<lamont> mdz: give me 25 minutes
<lamont> &*_%+^*( udeb fetcher doesn't fetch the newest version of a package if multiple versions exist.
<lamont> hence bad artwork
<mdz> lamont: 8 minutes, 25 minutes...we'll be here all night!
<mdz> :-)
<elmo_> Kamion: just upload the orig.tar.gz? 
<elmo_> or I can forcibly reject it, if you want
<lamont> mdz: saved you the time to download and burn it before you screamed, at least...
<Kamion> elmo_: it's not in the .changes ...
<Kamion> does that matter
<Kamion> ?
<mdz> Kamion: I can upload it if you want to sleep
<doogie> elmo works on ubuntu, or elmo is commenting on a ubuntu upload into debian?
<elmo_> kamion: katie's Special and can  handle that
<Kamion> mdz: it's ok, doing other things
* lamont wanders off for a few minutes
<Kamion> elmo_: uploaded, I think
<mdz> Kamion: accepted
<Kamion> elmo_: thanks
<seb128> time to sleep, 'night
<mdz> night, seb
<mjg59> Wow
<mjg59> This laptop is fucked :)
<Kamion> mjg59: good, isn't it?
<Kamion> ok, now I'm stumbling around the room walking into things, this is bad
<Kamion> goodnight
<Kamion> (muscles sore from karate yesterday, it's not all tiredness :-))
* lamont plans to make it to his karate class thursday.
<lamont> maybe even jujutsu tomorrow night
<lamont> mdz: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041020-01/warty-live-i386-20041020-01.iso
* lamont must run to a FD meeting, bbiab.... mdz: feel free to hit my cell and tell me to come back to the office anytime... 
<lamont> will try to bail after an hour or so, but dunno what'll happen.
<mdz> amd64 and powerpc installs successful
<chrisa> lamont: Did you do the mplayer build/upload?
* chrisa watches it exit with "Illegal Instruction" on any media file with both mplayer and gmplayer
<lamont> chrisa: i386, or elsewhere?
<lamont> chrisa: OTOH, before the upload, it was FTBFS
<chrisa> i386
<lamont> something to worry about after I get back.
<lamont> chrisa: my only change was to add xmms-dev to the build-deps, so that it would quit bitching about not finding libxmms.so.1
<lamont> anyway, back in a bit.
<mdz> lamont: downloading now
<chrisa> lamont: I'm going to see what happens when I build it locally
<lamont> chrisa: thanks
<lamont> patches welcome.
<lamont> probably for tonight only, if mdz forgives us.
<lamont> gone.
<chrisa> lamont: It works when I build / install the package myself (just an fyi)
<mdz> yeah, breaks for me too
<chrisa> mplayer's error says it's related to not being built for the correct cpu type, my guess would be the CFLAGS are a bit too specific for a i386 package
<mdz> looks like it's built for p4
<chrisa> I'm running on an athlon xp
<mdz> lamont: live CD is fucked
<mdz> never mind, booted it in the USB drive, that never works
<mdz> chrisa: likewise
<mdz> CPUflags:  MMX: 1 MMX2: 1 3DNow: 0 3DNow2: 0 SSE: 1 SSE2: 0
<mdz> Compiled for x86 CPU with extensions: MMX MMX2 SSE SSE2
<mdz> it's probably trying to use SSE2
<jdub> mdz: what's our policy for universe fixes and syncs going to be post-final?
<mdz> jdub: for stuff which doesn't build or work, I think we can be fairly liberal
<mdz> for stuff which does build and work, i think our policy should be fairly similar to main
<mdz> jdub: have you tested the candidates?
<jdub> can't download until off-peak :|
<jdub> uploaded calendar packages
<mdz> jdub: presumably those are NEW?
<mdz> elmo just went to sleep
<jdub> yeah
<mjg59> I've tracked this machine down
<mjg59> It's an ECS G320
<mdz> the progress meter on the live CD is...weird
<mdz> the grub one
<mdz> the bootsplash looks nice, though
<sladen> hmmm
<mdz> jdub: gnome splash on the live CD seems to be the default gnome one
<jdub> yeah
<mdz> that's expected?
<jdub> well, known
<jdub> can you do this:
<jdub> grep -A 4 splash_image /etc/gconf/schemas/gnome-session.schemas
<jdub> i don't think lamont answered that earlier
<mdz> Oct 19 14:56:40 <jdub>  what does 'grep -A 3 splash_image /etc/gconf/schemas/gnome-session.schemas' say on the livecd?
<mdz> Oct 19 15:00:38 <lamont>                 <default>splash/ubuntu-splash.png</default>
<mdz> Oct 19 15:02:20 <lamont>        which is the nekid ppl, so it's just as well that it's b0rke
<mdz> I checked it in the running system, and it's the same
<jdub> see, that oughta work :)
<mdz> the file is present, a symlink to ubuntu-logo-508x340.png
<jdub> unless there's some gconf b0rk on the cd
<jdub> mdz: type this:gconftool-2 --get /apps/gnome-session/options/splash_image
<mdz> should gconftool-2 -g /apps/gnome-session/options/splash_image show somethinG?
<mdz> just tried that, it comes up blank
<mdz> gconftool-2 -g /schemas/... gives the value, though
<jdub> there's our problem
<mdz> great. how do we fix it?
<jdub> dunno
<jdub> will probably have to boot the livecd to nut it out
<jdub> how about
<jdub> ls /tmp/gconf-* ?
<jdub> ls /tmp/gconfd-* ?
<jdub> sorry
<mdz> jdub: /tmp/gconfd-warty contains one subdir, 'lock'
<mdz> which itself contains one regular file, 'ior'
<jdub> rwx user only, etc?
<mdz> which has 609 bytes of text data in it
<mdz> correct
<jdub> hrm
<mdz> warty@ubuntu:~/.gconf/apps/gnome-session/options $ cat ~/.gconf/apps/gnome-session/options/%gconf.xml
<mdz> <?xml version="1.0"?>
<mdz> <gconf>
<mdz>         <entry name="splash_image" mtime="1098236337" type="string">
<mdz>                 <stringvalue></stringvalue>
<mdz>         </entry>
<mdz> </gconf>
<mdz> hmm, no .xsession-errors
<jdub> ahr
<mdz> ah, it goes to the console
<mdz> hmm, interesting
<mdz> ** (gnome-session:4487): WARNING **: Failed to load image from '/usr/share/pixmaps/': Image file '/usr/share/pixmaps' contains no data
<mdz> related?
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> that's the root for the splash
<jdub> so it's got a zero length string, and tried to load it
<jdub> (which i~ s kinda bong)
<jdub> but the big issue is gconf not correctly pulling from the schemas
<jdub> $ grep -v ^# /etc/gconf/2/path
<jamesh> jdub: possibly because the user gconf database sets it to an empty string?
<jamesh> (based on what mdz pasted)
<jdub> jamesh: that's why gnome-session is borked, but we're trying to work out why the user database is borked
<jdub> the gnome-session thing is a result of that
<jamesh> does this user gconf database get unpacked from the live CD?
<jdub> strongly doubt it
<jamesh> okay.
<jdub> it's made in the overlay
<jamesh> yeah.  the mtime is from about 15 minutes ago.
<daniels> um, are there screenshots of the new Human anywhere? i'm having serious trouble getting my laptop online
<jdub> hrm, don't think so
<jdub> not the final one
<tseng> daniels: i can get you one in a few minutes
<tseng> doing my daily update
<daniels> cheers
<mdz> jdub: bingo
<mdz> ./rc.m/S06setsplash:# Sets the gnome splash screen using gconftool-2 for the user
<mdz> ./rc.m/S06setsplash:    su -c 'gconftool-2 --type=string --set /apps/gnome-session/options/splash_image  "$FILE"' - $USER
<mdz> #!/bin/sh
<mdz> # Sets the gnome splash screen using gconftool-2 for the user
<mdz> # $USER comes from our include.sh
<mdz> . /morphix/include.sh
<mdz> FILE="/usr/share/pixmaps/splash/ubuntu-splash.png"
<mdz> if [ -e "$FILE" ] ; then
<mdz>         su -c 'gconftool-2 --type=string --set /apps/gnome-session/options/splash_image  "$FILE"' - $USER
<mdz> fi
<mdz> I think it needs an s@/usr/share/pixmaps/@@
<jdub> that should work
<jdub> that's really crack though
<mdz> the fact that it's messing with gconf at boot as part of the morphix stuff seems key
<jamesh> it should be in the defaults gconf database
<jamesh> if it is meant to be a default
<mdz> jamesh: it is
<mdz> this is morphix crack
<jdub> that is serious crack
<tseng> daniels: the gtk/metacity looks the same
<jdub> what if you kill that?
<tseng> daniels: what am i looking for?
<daniels> tseng: i dunno.  i think i have the problem solved anyway tho -- thanks :)
<tseng> nps
<mdz> jdub: I don't know how to do that
<mdz> I guess I could mount the base module and burn a new CD
* tseng goes back to openbox
<mdz> I'll try a failsafe boot
<daniels> can someone with access to kernel sources please tell me if the string '#define AC97_GPIO_LINE2_OH      0x0400  /* Off Hook Line2 */' appears in include/sound/ac97_codec.h?
<kylem> daniels, kyle@anduril:~/repos/parisc-linux/include/sound% grep "#define AC97_GPIO_LINE2_OH      0x0400" ac97_codec.h 
<kylem> #define AC97_GPIO_LINE2_OH      0x0400  /* Off Hook Line2 */
<daniels> awesome
<mdz> jdub: confirmed
<mdz> jdub: if I check early (before that script runs), gconftool-2 gives the correct value
<jdub> that is so much bong :)
<mdz> hmm
<mdz> it's correct after that script runs, too
<mdz> ah, no it isn't
<mdz> it's correct as root
<mdz> yep
<mdz> after that script runs, ~warty/.gconf has the empty value
<mdz> so we should just kill it
<mdz> lamont: back?
<jdub> rock
<daniels> lifeless: oh man
<daniels> lifeless: xorg will make your hoverbook happier
<daniels> and less hovery.
<tseng> DynamicClocks in da house
<daniels> option dynamicclocks will make the gpu core not run flat-tack all the time.  that's about 70% less hovery!
<daniels> tseng: in da hizzle
<tseng> <3
<tseng> i am xorg's bitch
<Mitario> damn, had a loooooong night of hacking, going to bed, cya all tomorrow
<Mitario> good luck with the release!
<fabbione> morning guys
<fabbione> argh
<fabbione> 2.6.9 is out
<doogie> will ubuntu include that?
* doogie runs
<fabbione> hey doogie 
<kylem> 2.6.9 is out, and 300 patches have gone in since. fun.
<fabbione> ubuntu yes.. warty no :P
<tseng> ya 2.6.9-bk3 already, wtf
<fabbione> hmm probably a bogus release
<fabbione> i unsubbed from lkml a while ago
<tseng> i read lkml.org
<doogie> no, just lots of patches sitting in mm that weren't slated for 2.6.9
<tseng> when i need something.
<doogie> I've been subscribed for a few weeks
<kylem> some people had interesting compiler errors with 2.6.9 on x86.
<fabbione> doogie: i unsubbed just for lack of time to read it properly
<doogie> been running Ingo Molnar's voluntary-preempt patches(U1-U6)
<doogie> fabbione: don't read debian lists.
<jdub> tseng: 
<fabbione> doogie: i dont :-)
<jdub>   libgtksourceview-cil: Depends: libgtksourceview-common (>= 1.0.1-3) but 1.0.1-2 is to be installed
<lifeless> daniels: wow.
<lifeless> I'm keen already :(
<fabbione> doogie: i only read debian-x :P
<lifeless> :)
<lifeless> bah. fingers broken
<tseng> jdub: =/
<jdub> tseng: tberman mentioned it
<tseng> jdub: i mustve edited that and forgotten about it
<jdub> do you know what the depends was for?
<jdub> i can do a quick upload
<tseng> seemed to be nothing in particular
<tseng> everything built against -2
<jdub> mmm, this is a runtime depends though
<tseng> perhaps look at the changelog for -3 ?
<jdub> mmm
<tseng> runtime?
<jdub> depends rather than build-depends
<tseng> is it hardcoded, or from dh_netlibs
<tseng> yeah i understand, just begging the question or something
<jdub> Depends: ${net:Depends}, libgtksourceview-common (>= 1.0.1-3)
<tseng> whats the -3 changelog?
<tseng> or better.. can I get the changelog quickly w/o grabbing the source?
<jdub> packages.qa.debian.org?
<tseng> cheers.
<jdub> gtksourceview (1.0.1-3) unstable; urgency=low
<jdub>   * Language specification files backported from CVS.
<jdub>     - Updated: ada.lang, perl.lang
<jdub>     - New: css.lang, fortran.lang, haskell.lang, javascript.lang, lua.lang,
<jdub>       pascal.lang, ruby.lang, texinfo.lang and vbnet.lang
<jdub>     (closes: #255668)
<jdub>   * Documentation now symlinked under /usr/share/doc/libgtk2.0-doc.
<jdub>     (closes: #261119)
<jdub> 
<jdub> doesn't seem runtime-critical to me
<tseng> nope..
<jdub> just happy-happy-we-have lang files
<jdub> ok, i'll do a quick upload
<tseng> you rock.
<tberman> tseng: why is MD not in universe?
<tseng> oh noes
<tberman> jdub sent me
<tberman> blame him
<tseng> tberman: its being worked on
<tseng> as we speak
<tberman> awesome :)
<tberman> anything i can do to help
<tseng> well just some circular build deps holding up
<tberman> oh?
<tseng> yes monodoc + gtk-sharp pkgs
<tberman> ah :)
<tberman> yeah, i know that one well :)
<tberman> im hoping to find a day or two to solve that one
<tberman> but there is little upstream (and i mean miguel) traction.
<tseng> hah he closed my bug
<tseng> wontfix or so
<tseng> (mono vs pure nptl)
<tberman> about splitting it?
<tberman> oh
<tberman> yeah, that was him being a dick
<tberman> thats being worked on though
<tseng> oh good
<tseng> the other minor problem jdub just hit was something small i overlooked
<tseng> i never really intended my stuff to go into ubuntu
<mdz> lamont: ping
<tberman> tseng: that thing about gtksourceview-common being too old?
<tseng> yeah
<tberman> nod, i saw that earlier today
<tseng> i guess you caught it actually :)
<tseng> ya.
<tberman> trying to install MD on my bosses box :)
<tseng> well its getting close
<tseng> that and monodoc vs gtk-sharp and things will hopefully be on their way
<jdub> tseng: never intended? bah :)
<tseng> unless warty/universe is going to freeze up
<tseng> jdub: i did it for myself really
<jdub> that's how everything is done ;)
<tseng> ill know better next time.
<jdub> tseng, tberman: uploaded.
<tseng> yay
<tberman> jdub: you rock
<tberman> id love to be able to email my boss tmw and say 'refresh synaptic and search for monodevelop'
<tseng> well the build host still needs kicked on monodoc
<tseng> lamont i think is going to look at that if he gets a few minutes
<tberman> tseng: cant you just split gtk-sharp-docs into its own package?
<tberman> tseng: actually, you dont really need to
<tseng> hm i suppose
<tberman> tseng: monodoc the tarball ships with gtk# docs
<jdub> it still wouldn't build, though
<tberman> tseng: and gtk# doesn't make docs on its own
<tseng> jdub: oh?
<jdub> (splitting a docs package out, the entire source won't build so you won't get any binary packages)
<tberman> you dont need to split it out though
<tberman> it doesnt get built by default
<tberman> docs/ isnt even in subdirs
<fabbione> mdz: are the images that Kamion published the same as the daily ones?
<fabbione> they should be... but you may never know :)
<mdz> fabbione: yes
<lamont> moo
<lamont> tseng: checking
<lamont> mdz/jdub: so what do I change where?
<lamont> btw, sound works for me on the latest LiveCD
<mdz> lamont: S06setsplash should disappear
<lamont> mdz: why do I not find that surprising at all.. :-(
<lamont>  This version is specific for Warty the Warthog, and contains
<lamont>  an init script for setting the Gnome splashscreen using gconftool
<lamont> I guess that can go from control too,eh?
<mdz> bye-bye
<jdub> mdz: sleep time?
<mdz> jdub: no, to setsplash
<tseng> it is sleep time for me
<jdub> ahr
<tseng> ahr
* lamont pushes the big green button
<tseng> g'night
<lamont> tseng: before you go..
<tseng> yessir?
<lamont> what's wrong with monodoc?
<tseng> ya
<tseng> it wants gtk-sharp
<tseng> and gtk-sharp wants monodoc
<tseng> so you'll likely have to install one from me
<lamont> on which architecture?
<tseng> any afaik
<lamont> i386 thinks they're current, I believe.
* tseng looks at todays
<tseng> elmo_: Couldn't find package libgtk-cil
<tseng> apt-get failed.
<tseng> sorry, irssi complete there
<lamont> tseng: that's with apt-get install what?
<tseng> thats from the build log..
<tseng> of monodoc.
<lamont> oh. you're looking at the build logs.
<lamont> um, well...
<lamont> monodoc's is missing
<lamont> libgtk-cil is installable on i386
<lamont> and pulls in 46 other packages
<tseng> 46?
<lamont> above and beyond a build-essential chroot, that is.
<lamont> normal system it'd be lots less.
<tseng> oh
<tseng> yeah its only a couple here
<lamont> debconf is one of the 46, for example.
* tseng nods.
<tseng> so, has monodoc failed to build since this log?
<tberman> tseng: why does gtk-sharp want monodoc?
<lamont> libgtk-cil is installable on powerpc as well.
<tberman> tseng: i still dont understand that.
<tseng> tberman: ask the debian packagers I guess
<lamont> tseng: monodoc has successfully built since that log.
<tberman> tseng: fuck the debian packagers
<tseng> lamont: ahhh, wonderful
<tberman> tseng: they are fucking useless.
<tberman> tseng: gtk-sharp doesnt need monodoc.
<tseng> tberman: well i mostly followed their shit
<tberman> tseng: the monodoc tarball installs gtk-sharp docs for you
<lamont> tseng: problem is that I do the bootstrapping in the magical distribution of "warty.lj", which never logs.
<tseng> tberman: ok
<tseng> tberman: hey, since you know mono, and you arent lame, maybe you can help me do things right next time
<tseng> lamont: ah, sorry for the runaround then
<lamont> I should really push the logs from the last round of bootstrapping, but I'm counting on that infrastructure really being there soon...
<tseng> lamont: i only know what shows up in the log
<tberman> tseng: you seem to do most things pretty damn well :)
<tseng> thats why im famous!
<tberman> tseng: and yes, im willing to help
<lamont> tseng: to make matters even more fun, arch: all-only packages aren't even in ~lamont/buildLogs/Lists/* unless they're out of date
<tseng> hm
<lamont> but that's understandable if you dig deep enough..  But it's pretty smelly there.
<tseng> once you guys are done hauling ass to get warty out, mayhap I can learn your processes better and be less of a burden
<lamont> tseng: my sequence is to see what's in the archive, then (when it's not there), go look for buildd status (buildLogs/Lists/warty.all.${ARCH}), then worry about what's in the log
<lamont> tseng: the whole current buildLogs infrastructure is a hack thrown together to eliminate the old process.  That was "ask lamont", and very annoying all around.
<lamont> because I'm not here 24x7
<tseng> heh.
<daniels> tseng: not a burden at all -- thanks for the mono packages :)
<tseng> nps
<lamont> tseng: and getting the team to leave me alone leaves room to check on other packages.  No real issue at all.
<jdub> tseng: we're working on making the infrastructure/process easier to handle too ;)
<lamont> jdub: certainly.
<tseng> rad.
<jdub> so we'll meet in the middle soon enough ;)
<lamont> do not confuse the current buildLogs mess with anything that we think is good.
<mdz> lamont: new live CD image?
<lamont> 18+23=41
<tseng> so if muine is listed in Lists/warty.all.i386
<lamont> +copy time
<tseng> its completed?
<lamont> well, if it's listed there and marked 'Installed', then yes
<tseng> ah.
<lamont> if it's not there, and it's arch: all (only), then that's normal, and means it's there.
<mdz> lamont: 41 minutes from now, or :41?
<lamont> if it's not there, and has arch-specific components, then we excluded it from that architecture for some reason.
<lamont> started at :18, takes ~23 min to build, == :41
<lamont> then I have to copy it over to rookery
<lamont> home edition takes about 32 minutes
<lamont> :-(
<lamont> but it rsync's to the machine with the burner at ~60 Mbits/sec
<mdz> has anyone else received random and unexpected messages from syslog on logged-in terminals?
<lamont> no
<daniels> mdz: ... no
<mdz> has happened to be several times in warty
<mdz> on my laptop
<mdz> Message from syslogd@localhost at Tue Oct 19 21:35:06 2004 ...
<mdz> localhost kernel: sr0: scsi3-mmc drive: 62x/62x writer dvd-ram cd/rw xa/form2 cdda tray
<mdz> not a very important message
<kylem> daniels, if this breaks my sid install, i'll install ubuntu. ;-)
<lamont> btw, fun fire training tonight... stuck a cadet in a trunk, and burried another firefighter in a car's remains.  fun extrication
* mdz silently hopes that kylem's sid install breaks
<kylem> daniels, hopefully i pinned everything properly, so that won't happen. :)
* daniels looks at the output of 'dict silence', then back at mdz.
<kylem> mdz, 8)
* mdz invites daniels to listen and see if he can hear mdz
* kylem wonders when cds are supposed to ship, he's running a linux tutorial in 2 or 3 weeks.
<jdub> kylem: 'not in time'
<daniels> mdz: actually, I can't, because I didn't manage to get that off thom's PowerBook because it got stolen, and you have the original :P
<kylem> jdub, fair enough, just means i need to burn them, that's in the budget though. :)
<lamont> mdz: 20041020-05
<lamont> and....
<lamont> go
<mdz> lamont: URL?
<lamont> sigh.
<lamont> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041020-05/warty-live-i386-20041020-05.iso
<lamont> ETOOLONG
<tseng> ENOSLEEP
<tseng> bye.
<lamont> night tseng
<tseng> cya
<mdz> ETA 40 minutes
<lamont> eta 5+burntime
<lamont> of course, you're testing the real one.. :-)
<lamont> this should fix the gnome splash, I gather?
<lamont> oh - sound muted.. where/how do we fix that, I wonder?
<fabbione> lamont: is that the last LiveCD to test?
<lamont> fabbione: well, unless we rip a new one for the muted audio, it's the last one, I hope... Certainly the latest
<mdz> lamont: yes, that should fix the gnome splash
<mdz> lamont: what about the funny grub progress meter?
<lamont> mdz: I've decided it looks cute.
<fabbione> lamont: downloading now
<lamont> mdz: I think that if the white line came in further, we'd have full width.  NFC about the blue stuff though
<fabbione> mdz: iso and netinstall from daily on i386 are GO
<fabbione> getting the LiveCD now
<mdz> lamont: but you do see the same thing?
<mdz> fabbione: thanks
<lamont> mdz: effectively appears as 3 bars (the 3'rd one being all brown and therefore invisible), and bar 2 having a fatter blue center than bar 1
<fabbione> ETA for Live 50 minutes + burning
<mdz> lamont: you have the same muting problem?
<lamont> ues
<lamont> yes
<mdz> lamont: yes, that's the same thing I se in the progress meter
<lamont> but once unmuted, sound is there
<mdz> lamont: I assumed it wasn't getting unmuted due to my sound devices being detected in the wrong order
<lamont> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/jdub-grub.jpg
<lamont> that's what the screen looks like for me.
<lamont> where did your set audio to 70% script wind up?
<mdz> lamont: /etc/init.d/alsa-base start
<lamont> and I imagine that runs at some point...
<mdz> lamont: it does in the installed system
<mdz> morphix doesn't exactly use the stock boot process
<mdz> lamont: try running it and see if it works
<lamont> actually, will run it post boot this next go round
<lamont> jinx
<mdz> and if so, arrange for morphix to run it
<lamont> right
<lamont> S06setsound :-)
<lamont> setvolume, even
<lamont> mdz: the other thing someone pointed out today was that the liveCD notices swap partitions and uses them. This could be detrimental to suspend-to-swap...
<mdz> lamont: same for crash dumps and the like
<mdz> as far as I'm concerned, swap partitions are fair game
<lamont> yeah - everyone else seems to think they are... :)
* fabbione did
<fabbione> well not that i had anything in there.
<fabbione> it was just a thought
<lamont> from the personal bitch-fest side of things... if you exit your session with multiple firefox windows open (one process though), then the next login will launch N separate firefox processes, N-1 of which bitch about profiles
<lamont> fixating
<mdz> this download is taking forever
<mdz> everyone stop apt-getting for a while, we're trying to download CD images over here :-P
* kylem scratches his head. mplayer-custom is sigill-ing on me. :\
<lamont> oh, hrm.mplayer.
* lamont tries something.
<__daniel> goooood morning!
<mdz> mplayer-custom isn't supposed to be autobuilt
<mdz> that's for custom builds
<kylem> er?
<lamont> GOOD SPLASH
<mdz> lamont: there's a 'marillat' flag in debian/rules to do what you want for autobuilding
<mdz> but probably we just want to fix it to build a regular i386 binary with runtime CPU detection
<mdz> that'd be best
<lamont> mdz: oh. we built it for the buildd hardware, didn't we...
<mdz> lamont: correct
<daniels> the hwole mplayer packaging is total bong
<kylem> heh, that explains a lot. :)
<lamont> mdz: /etc/init.d/alsa start
<mdz> lamont: /etc/init.d/alsa-base start
<lamont> ain't got one of those.
<lamont> alsa             alsa-autoconfig  
<lamont> is what we have
<lamont> hrm.. alt-f2 during boot might be a bit too bright..
<lamont> btw, running /etc/init.d/alsa start says 'restoring mixer settings'...  is that right>?
<lamont> and alsa-base delivers /etc/init.d/alsa...
<__daniel> lamont, yes, for me too
<mdz> lamont: you're right, it's alsa
<lamont> mdz: permission to fix mplayer tomorrow when I'm awake?
<mdz> lamont: anyway, does it work?
<lamont> yep
<lamont> so, back to the top of the hill we go.
<mdz> lamont: mplayer is a non-issue until after the release
<mdz> lamont: so running that script did not unmute it for you?
<mdz> or it did?
<lamont> running the script unmuts
<lamont> cups, dbus, hal, adduser.  after cups before the rest work for alsa?
<mdz> lamont: alsa can run anytime after hardware detection, I assume
<mdz> which I think happens before any of that
<lamont> I dropped it in where S06setsplash lived.
<lamont> anything else to put in this round?
<mdz> lamont: nothing to be done about the grub meter?
<mdz> can't we just make it a solid color?
* lamont will mess with it some
<lamont> but it's my easter egg. :-)
<lamont> yeah, yeah, doesn't fit. lying.
<lamont> cheating.
* lamont does some reading
<lamont> mdz: verbose mode is too low-contrast/bright... thinking it may want to be the default background, instead of the shiny-bright one.
<mdz> lamont: a black background would be nice for verbose mode
<mdz> but this is not a warty kind of item unless it's completely trivial
<lamont> extremely trivial...
<lamont> deliver a black jpg instead of the same jpg twice
<lamont> mdz: want to keep the logo in dark grey?
<lamont> no.verbose == black.
<lamont> OK
<lamont> mdz: I rather expect that it's using the color indexs in some interestnig way that I don't understand...
<lamont> I could certainly try swapping back in the morphix grub screen arrows and see what that does...
<sivang> lamont : got now iso ?
<mdz> lamont: just let me know when to start downloading again
<mdz> I am running out of time before I need to sleep
<sivang> now=mew
<sivang> mew=new
<fabbione> lamont: burning the live now
<sivang> lamont : the one on #ubuntu's topic is the correct one?
<lamont> sivang: no
<lamont> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD
<lamont> go to the newest 2004* directory and that's the current one
<sivang> you didn't symlink from /current?
<sivang> rsync runs there at least? :) (given my iso only differs on the artwork)
<lamont> rsync is useless
<lamont> 650MB turns into ~630MB
<sivang> ok
<lamont> well, that might not be so true anymore, but generally the compressed blobs just trash everything
<doogie> got a bittorrent for the isos?  I am willing to setup an rsync+bittorrent seeder, if needed
<lamont> doogie: no bt for the iterim livecds
<doogie> that's fine.  but for the final?
<lamont> will definitely have one
<daniels> there will be a torrent for the final, just like all our other isos.
<doogie> timeframe?
<daniels> when it's done
<doogie> :|
<fabbione> lamont: the but menus has all kind of options on the LiveCD
<fabbione> lamont: too bad that it still shows morphix here and there
<mdz> doogie: 1500 UTC tomorrow
<mdz> lamont: there are -06 and -07 directories, but no iso in -07
<mdz> lamont: should I be downloading -06 or waiting for -07?
<lamont> 07 isn't there
<lamont> I was too slow uploading -06.. :-(
<lamont> 07 will be a while
<mdz> lamont: what's going to be in -07?
<lamont> your ^*&)^+ grub screen
<mdz> lamont: if that isn't trivial, skip it
<mdz> it's cosmetic
<lamont> yeah, but it's not really hard.
<fab-live> lamont: it looks ok here
<lamont> mdz: and verbose background==black
<fab-live> sound is not muted
<fab-live> let me test on the laptop too
* lamont burns a quick-n-dirty test CD
<amu> g'morning *
<fabbione> lamont: LiveCd is good on lappy too. including sound
<fabbione> hey amu!
<bob2> mjg59: did you see the post about ibm-acpi on lkml?
<lamont> mdz: so would you like a pair of blue bars, or a blue one and a black one. :(
* lamont switches back to the pair-of-blues
<amu> lamont: 20-06 is the latest one ? 
<lamont> amu: for about the next 23 minutes or so...
<lamont> mdz: only change between 06 and 07 will be the verbose bootsplash
<amu> lamont: all right, i'll take 06 and test it on 4 different maschines. ( i810 ) included.   
<lamont> amu: cool
<amu> lamont: some of my users reported, on a i810 X is not as it should :(  
<fabbione> lamont: i never saw this double bars
<fabbione> lamont: where are they supposed to be located?
<lamont> during grub, if you don't hit any keys - you get 5 seconds to see them.
<lamont> it's the countdown bar for the autoboot
* vorlon reads 'autobot' as he switches windows, frowns, and comes back for a second look.
<lamont> heh
<lamont> mdz: mplayer isn't on the livecd. :-)
<fabbione> lamont: ah ok
<lamont> fabbione: you know, while your monitor is syncing
<mdz> lamont: er, of course it isn't?
<lamont> mdz: sorry - was tongue-in-cheek complaint
<lamont> it's getting late, you see....
<mdz> lamont: download ready?
<lamont> :54++
<lamont> mdz: btw, 2482 has a proposed patch
<mdz> ok, I need to get to bed
<mdz> send a followup to ubuntu-devel with the live CD status
<lamont> image pushing now
<mdz> night
<lamont> will send email
<lamont> fabbione: wanna process check -07?
<__daniel> good night mdz
<lamont> fabbione: things to check on -07 are (1) boots, (2) if you hit alt-f2 (and kill the bootsplash), do you get a black background, or does the splash remain there to be annoying
<fabbione> lamont: sure....s test case.
<fabbione> url?
<lamont> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041020-07/warty-live-i386-20041020-07.iso
<fabbione> mdz: night
<fabbione> lamont: downloading now
<lamont> fabbione: eta?  need to sleep soon..
<fabbione> lamont: 1 hour download+burning
<fabbione> lamont: brb
<lamont> right.  that means I'll send the email to ubuntu-devel@ and you can followup to it, eh?
<fabbione> lamont: yes.. can you stay around only a few minutes more?
<lamont> certainly - it'll take at least that long to compose the email
<fabbione> ok
<lamont> besides, I want to boot the home edition before I sleep
<fabbione> great
<sivang> home edition?
<sivang> xp ??? ;)
<fabbione> sivang: yes...
<fabbione> and there is also Xp and server edition ;)
<lamont> sivang: built at my house
<lamont> the data center version is canonical, of course.
<sivang> lamont : oh you made builts from in your house? But you can teach people to use the restart and then choose it from grub
<lamont> sivang: I don't have bandwidth to be transferring huge iso's about..  this way was easier...
<lamont> although it does require careful cloning of changes, but that's not so bad.
<sivang> lamont : isee
<sivang> lamont : well, anyways I'm also downloading it now
<lamont> cool.
<lamont> sivang: hence the "process check" on my CD builds.
<lamont> my download time, even if I yank all the stops out is >6-7 hours.
<sivang> lamont : boy. well, my current ETA = 1:30
<sivang> I hope that helps
<lamont> sivang: if I don't pull the stops out, I get to fetch it at <40kbits/sec.
<amu> sivang: hh:mm ? 
<sivang> amu : hh:mm
<lamont> == just short of 48 hours.
<sivang> lamont : yes. What's the maximum throughput of your cloude at home?
<lamont> in the house, 100Mbits for the most part
<lamont> to the house? ~300kbits/sec, but anything over 56kbps counts towards a monthly quota
<bob2> lamont: well post-warty and post-sleep , could I bug you for a bit to help me bootstrap ghc6 on ppc?
<lamont> bob2: np
<bob2> cool, thanks.
<sivang> lamont : I've got 750Kbits. No monthly quota, however that comes back at me in the form of very and I mean, very bad service...:-)
<lamont> bob2: here's the trick: deb http://snapshot.debian.net/archive/2004/06/28/debian unstable main
<lamont> bob2: I've declared the end of bootstrapping already, or I'd toss it in.
<bob2> lamont: build it in an ubuntu chroot using some dependencies from snapshot, then rebuild with the new ubuntu package?
<lamont> bob2: add that deb line to sources.list, build in the warty chroot.  use those debs + warty only to build it again
<lamont> remember to apt-get clean in the middle, of course
<bob2> lamont: right, makes sense.
<bob2> heh, right
<lamont> much easier to bootstrap warty than it is to bootstrap a completely new architecture...
<bob2> heh, I bet.
<bob2> can something I build go into universe at some point, or at least let you easily rebuild it on the buildd's?
<lamont> new architecture requires that you actually understand what you're doing... 
<lamont> if you have a clean archive, or can point me at one (and the right order of things to build to break the circular dep-wait-chain-of-dispair), then it's easy to get the builds done.
<lamont> but binaries in the archive all come from the buildds
<bob2> ah, fair enough
<lamont> although I must admit that sometimes the man behind the curtain helps the buildds out a bit..
<lamont> since it's build A, use A to build B, throw away A, upload B
<lamont> where A and B are the same package, etc.
<bob2> ah
<lamont> and the buildd's not so good at throwing things away....
<ik5pvx> howdy
<fabbione> lamont: argh!!! one of my friends that installed ubuntu reported that mplayer in multiverse can't play WOAD! If you want we can send you the movie as test case.
<ik5pvx> yeah, we need more pr0n-capable codecs :)
<lamont> fabbione: known borkage
<fabbione> lamont: do you want WOAD to test?
<lamont> fabbione: the error yesterday was that mplayer wasn't installed in the archive (FTBFS).  Now it's just built for P4
<lamont> nah - know what the problem is...
<lamont> if you're running on the buildd, it works
<lamont> that is, intel Xeon
<fabbione> got it
* lamont pounds nails through the home edition
<ik5pvx> ok, I go back to work, keep on the nice work, it's good to have everything in a single place instead of relying on external archives
<lamont> fabbione: there's a build target in the makefile to make the detection runtime instead of build time.
<fabbione> yes i remember that
* lamont forgot to freshen the home Packages.gz before he built the iso.
<lamont> not an issue with the datacenter edition
<fabbione> ETA 40 minutes here
<fabbione> someone is sucking my bw
* lamont makes it back, he thinks.
<lamont> fabbione: eta still about 25 minutes, yes?
<fabbione> 29
* lamont hangs out
<bob2> fabbione: how much bandwidth do you have now?
<fabbione> bob2: 2Mb but half of it is used by something else
<bob2> ah, ok
<bob2> it's weird hwo different countries have different dsl speed's
* lamont plays chicken with the upstream router going down for maintenance sometime >15 minutes from now.
<bob2> I'd have assumed it was some fundamental thing about the coper or something
<jamesh> bob2: Telstra's hardware seems to be limited at 1.5Mb
<fabbione> bob2: adsl is a standard
<fabbione> bob2: it's your ISP that makes the difference
<jamesh> the equipment iiNet is installing will allow higher speeds
<bob2> jamesh: yeah, I hear agile is planning to put their own 8mbit's dlsams in
<jdub> amifascisttelcoornot.com
<fabbione> (and the distance between your router and the first central)
<bob2> fabbione: hm, like here, it's always 256/64, 512/128 or 1.5/256, but in the US you can get 640 or 768 downstream.
<bob2> regardless of ISP
<jamesh> bob2: I know you can get symetric 2Mb in the CBD in perth
<fabbione> bob2: US sucks...
<fabbione> bob2: i can get 8Mb/1Mb adsl here in 10 minutes
<bob2> fabbione: bastard :)
<fabbione> bob2: it's enough i go to the web page and do 2/3 clicks
<bob2> fabbione: for $50/month more I can go to 1.5, but it takes until the next billing period
<fabbione> bob2: how much do you have and do you pay now?
<bob2> fabbione: 512/128, $au100/month
<bob2> that's the upper end of prices, tho
<lamont> fabbione: when you boot, watch the S.. script invocations go by, and see if it bitches about S06alsa...
<fabbione> bob2: how much is the $au compared to Eu or Usd?
<fabbione> lamont: i will
<bob2> fabbione: hm...maybe $73
<jamesh> bob2: iiNet is about half that.
<fabbione> bob2: that's hell of a lot of money
<bob2> jamesh: for 512/128 no bandwidth caps?
<fabbione> i pay less than that for 2Mb/512 + static ip
<bob2> jamesh: with a static ip?
<bob2> perversely, dsl is cheaper in WA, too
<jamesh> bob2: it doesn't have a static IP.
<bob2> ah
<jamesh> bob2: it is for 12GB a month, and they limit the bandwidth for the rest of the month if you go over.
<fabbione> here is 100% unlimited
<fabbione> you only pay the connection/bw
<fabbione> that's it
<jamesh> bob2: it is $70/month for unlimited
<bob2> hm, best I found here was tpg for $80
<lamont> maintenence deferrred to friday AM
<fabbione> ciao enrico 
<enrico> fabbione: ciao!
* lamont twiddles thumbs
<fabbione> lamont: 2 minutes to complete the dw
<sabdfl> morning all
<lamont> morning mark
<lamont> about to followup to mdz's mail on CD images
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:sabdfl] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 13 (count 'em) major bugs | BE THE SIGNAL | Warty release is TODAY
<fabbione> lamont: burning now
<fabbione> hey Mark
<sivang> 30m to complete download...
<sivang> enrico  : morning
<lamont> be the first on your block
<enrico> sivang: morning!
<lamont> fabbione: what speed CD's you using?
<fabbione> Starting to write CD/DVD at speed 10 in real TAO mode for single session.
<elmo_> jdub: please seed-ize the calendar stuff
<fabbione> these are RW
<sivang> morning pitti 
<pitti> Hi sivang
<fabbione> lamont: finalizing now
<pitti> Just finished reinstalling my workstation with current ISO
<pitti> Thumbs up! :-)
<sivang> pitti : you mean , with the warty *release* :)
<pitti> sivang: it isn't out yet !?
<pitti> sivang: I mean today's daily, but it should be very close (if not equal) to the release
<sivang> pitti : that's what I meant :)
<lamont> sivang: yeah, but you still can't call it "release" until it _is_
<sivang> lamont : true
<fabbione> lamont: 1) 07 boots 2) the blu bars are there 3) while booting swithing to f2 and back removes the bootsplash and let me see all the boot messages 
<fabbione> 4) there is still the message S06 can't find alsa
<lamont> fabbione: but does sound work?
<fabbione> it was from line 6 in morphix<something>
<fabbione> checking in a sec
<lamont> yeah
* lamont knows the message
<fabbione> lamont: i can see that all the modules are loaded and the mixer reports the correct card. I don't have any speakers to check 100%
<fabbione> and the mixer is NOT muted
<lamont> ok
<lamont> and gnome splash was the right one, yes?
<fabbione> hmm i didn't check that
<fabbione> hold on
* lamont sends his mail.  I think it's bedtime
<thom> lamont: cheap pcmcia wifi card
<thom> what would you recommend?
<lamont> aironet cards are nice, but 802.11b only
<lamont> and not particularly cheap
<lamont> netgear seems to be pretty good
<lamont> dunno.  all mine are aironet, atm
<fabbione> lamont: no people.. looks ok
<fabbione> aironet rocks
<lamont> fabbione: and it's the ubuntu logo screen, not the gnome 2.8 footprint screen
<fabbione> i need to go and get the basestation one of the next days
<thom> thanks.
<lamont> last call before bedtime
<fabbione> lamont: the gnome splash screen i am talking about
<fabbione> the one that shows all the nice icons while gnome starts
<lamont> right
<lamont> ok then.
<lamont> night
<fabbione> desktop background is ok too
<fabbione> g-night
<lamont> probably nack in about 3-4 hours. :(
<sivang> 20 minutes to go...
<sivang> (downloading)
<Kamion> have people been testing 20041020, or 20041020.1?
<Kamion> I forgot to turn off the cron job
<Kamion> for now I've just set the current symlink to point to 20041020
<sivang> Kamion : Will download after I finish downlodig the live one
<fabbione> 534108 -rw-r--r--  1 root root 548175872 Oct 20 01:35 warty-install-i386.iso
<fabbione> Kamion: i tested this one. both cd and netinstall
<fabbione> both are go
<fabbione> do you want me resync and test the others?
<pitti> Kamion: I tested this as well, thumb up
<pitti> Hi mvo_!
<jdub> elmo: ahr
<mvo_> hi pitti, hi everyone
<Kamion> fabbione: that looks like the right one, leave it
<Kamion> the existence of a later image was unintentional
<sabdfl> Kamion: what are rsync locations for both final and live cd?
<fabbione> Kamion: ok
<Kamion> sabdfl: releases.ubuntu.com::releases/warty/
<Kamion> sabdfl: not there yet
<sivang> Kamion : use the "current" symlink , rsync should work?
<Kamion> sivang: yes
<sabdfl> Kamion: thanks
<sivang> Kamion : current = daily that is
<Kamion> sivang: yes
<sabdfl> "current" isn't in releases though, is it?
<sivang> Kamion : k, thanks
<sabdfl> that's cdimage?
<Kamion> sabdfl: if people want to grab it early, cdimage.ubuntu.com::cdimage/daily/20041020/
<sabdfl> Kamion: ah, that's what i was really looking for :-)
<sabdfl> thanks
<Kamion> sabdfl: live CD is http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041020-07/warty-live-i386-20041020-07.iso; not much point in rsyncing that
<sabdfl> oh, true
<fabbione> at which time do we release today?
<fabbione> 14:00 UTC?
<Kamion> sabdfl: (if we do have to change from 20041020, rsyncing the differences will be cheap)
<sabdfl> fabbione: 15:00 UTC
<fabbione> roger
<fabbione> i have the time to upload X.org
* fabbione hides
<fabbione> just kidding ;)
<sivang> Kamion : has the syntax for rsync changed? I sed to just rsync://[path]  without using double semicolons to seperate server and path.
<sivang> Kamion : it won't work the old way now
<amu> -06 looks nice 
<justdave> installed on the ibook without a hitch.  haven't noticed any problems.
<justdave> installing on the G4 now
<Kamion> sivang: either should work; but don't ask me, ask the rsync man page :)
<amu> -07: 24.58K/s  ETA 4:06:37
* Kamion sets off an i386 install and goes back to sleep for a bit; didn't quite get my quota
<justdave> G4 install done, no problems there either except for the boot issue we already knew about. (bug 1379)
<justdave> had to reboot 3 or 4 times to get into stage 2 of the install
<justdave> but it eventually worked
<sivang> new daily : 1:30m to finish
<jdub> hrm
<jdub> so
<jdub> i'm at debsign
<jdub> debsig
<sivang> jdub : that is going to be like the preview release? :)
<jdub> (beer.)
<sivang> jdub : and the lcd so everybody there see what's going on here at release time? :)
<justdave> hmm, interesting.  installed the smp kernel and rebooted, and now the usb keyboard doesn't work.
<sivang> justdave : your on HT Machine?
<justdave> mouse (which is plugged into the keyboard) works fine
<justdave> sivang, the dual g4, yeah
<sivang> justdave : ah, I thought you were on i686 HT machine so I thought of testing that myself here, but could be ppc specific ?
<justdave> just rebooted again, this time the keyboard works.
<justdave> hopefully just a fluke.  (I have had that happen with this keyboard before, on other machines, too)
<sivang> lamont : here?
<sivang> hmm, live cd doesn't boot for me on the dell
<sivang> jdub : looking at the lug's activities makes me wanna live in sydney :)
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> SLUG rocks
<sivang> jdub : man, I must pay a decent visit to au someday , and on the checklist be there.
<tuo2> jdub: doh
<bob2> debsig is slug distilled.
<tuo2> I wish I was at debsig
<jdub> bob2: yeah, the poo floats to the top
<bob2> jdub: aren't you at debsig now?
<jdub> am right now
<bob2> haha
<sivang> preparing for release?
<bob2> sounds like the talk was very interesting then ;-)
<jdub> kinda eating dinner and drinking beer
<jdub> and matthew palmer is doing a talk about maintaining debian packages in arch
<jdub> we haven't even implanted a chip yet
<bob2> hahaha
<bob2> the best part of debsig is the food and beer
<thom> and the more beer
<thom> don't forget that
<bob2> ah yes
* bob2 wishes he was there, with yet more beer
<mjg59> Mm. Beer.
<tuo2> I also wish I was at debsig
<tuo2> but cold + rain + day off work for being sick = no beer for jordan
<tuo2> jdub: is d there?
<jdub> d?
<thom> mjg59: it is australian beer, sadly
<tuo2> jdub: matth.
<thom> "beer", rather
<jdub> yes
* Kamion contemplates beer, but the sun isn't over the yard-arm yet
<Kamion> bit early
<sabdfl> bob2: what's the right way to change an arch-tag to a an external file id?
<bob2> thom: yeah, it's refrigerated and everything!
<thom> Kamion: sun over yard arm at 15:01 UTC? ;-)
<bob2> sabdfl: you can't, sadly.  you have to remove the tagline, add an explicit and take the add/delete.
<Kamion> thom: ayup
* Kamion contemplates a quick Tesco trip beforehand
<sabdfl> bob2: thanks. standard for all launchpad development is NOT to use arch-tag, 'k?
<bob2> sabdfl: ah, ok, I'll bear that in mind.
* sabdfl speaking not to bob2 specifically
<sabdfl> tnx
<jdub> heh
<jdub> bob2: *cough* ;)
* jdub would mention that to a certain person now, but he has enough on his plate given the current talk...
<thom> sabdfl: any plans for the evening, seeing as elmo is around as well?
<jdub> thom: pipka sends hugs
<thom> jdub: send them back threefold!
<jdub> i'm not sure she'll survive
<jdub> but i'll take the risk
<bob2> jdub: haha
<bob2> jdub: I was, as always, impartial
<sabdfl> thom: hrmrmrmmm... how about a small release celebration?
<jdub> malibu and cokes all around!
<thom> sabdfl: this seems like a reasonable move :-)
<sabdfl> like 8 hours sleep to celebrate? <duck>
<thom> rofl
<sabdfl> ok, come around this evening, we'll find a place to celebrate
<thom> 80, more like (g(
<jdub> getting to know significant others again
<sabdfl> happy to host some london debian guys as well if you want to put out an announcement
<jdub> the joy of getting to know each other all over again after every release
<sabdfl> like, anything up to 20 would be fine for beers and dinner
<sivang> sabdfl : you're in england now?
<sabdfl> don't push it and suggest refrigeration though, this is london, not sidney
<bob2> hahaha
<thom> sabdfl: rock, will talk to folks. thanks! :-)
<thom> sabdfl: heh :-)
<sabdfl> sivang: yes
<Kamion> I'll stay up in Cambridge I think, what jdub said about significant other :)
<Kamion> amd64 success, i386+German+jfs-/ success
<mjg59> Haha
<sivang> is there a release time that had been set up (UTC) ?
<Kamion> (oh, +archive-copier/copy=false
<Kamion> )
<sabdfl> Kamion: thom is going to drink all of your beer :-)
<mjg59> You manage to release on the one night that I'm already double booked
<Kamion> sabdfl: I'll be drinking my own, no worries :)
<pitti> ppc/G4/German success
<jdub> hey amu
<amu> remoins
<amu> huhu jdub 
<tuo2> beer+= refridgeration;
<sivang> i386/dell(livecd)/failure
* thom wishes idly that everyone just used static html
<Kamion> sivang: details?
<sivang> Kamion : trying to boot "Ubuntu" target get ne at "initrd (cd)/boot/miniroot.gz"
<sivang> Kamion : and then that's it, it loops back to the text mode grub menu, positioned at the "Ubuntu" target again
<sivang> this would leep as long as I try, no other target I tried would help.
<sivang> leep=loop
<sabdfl> mjg59: bring your friends
<sabdfl> Kamion: was the outcome of your merge discussion with mdz a decision to merge hard now then small updates?
<jdub> sabdfl: did you mail about the artwork decision?
<sabdfl> jdub: nope, wanted the packages in first. they all set? pkg descriptions etc?
<jdub> sabdfl: they're all uploaded and done
<mjg59> sabdfl: Awkward. It involves a large set of undergraduates, and it's going to be hard enough to get them across Cambridge.
<sabdfl> 'k
<sabdfl> mjg59: large set of sober undergraduates?
<mjg59> With luck, not when we're done with them
<pitti> sabdfl: the new artwork on today's CD is nice; gdm screen is better than the preview one
<jdub> bright and happy!
<sabdfl> sunny!
<thom> sabdfl: if i tell people to be at or around south ken at 19:30 or so, does that work for you?
<sabdfl> thom: perfect
<sabdfl> is the transcript of monday's comunity meeting available online?
<thom> i can make logs available if they're not in the usual place
<thom> i think mako was planning to write up
<thom> hey Sledge 
<Sledge> hey thom
<Sledge> anyone seen kinnison about?
<sabdfl> thom, if there's a usual place that's available online, just give me the url please
<sabdfl> i think mako will include a summary in Traffic
<sabdfl> thom: otherwise, yes, please publish it and let me have the url so i can include it in my mail
<Kamion> sabdfl: yes, that's what I took out of it
<Kamion> Sledge: he's in my front room; can I deliver a message?
<sabdfl> Kamion: thanks
<Sledge> Kamion: cool, yes
<sivang> ah network went down again
<sivang> :(
<sivang> back now
<thom> sabdfl: http://people.ubuntu.com/~thom/ubuntu-artwork-meeting.log
<sabdfl> thom: thanks muchly
<sladen> anyone know why the  ubuntu  text on the GDM login is black rather than corporate dark blue?
<daniels> jdub: would malibu and coke all round be a release punishment?
<daniels> jdub: 'what do you mean, no mad phat startup for warty?!? i sentence you to malibu and coke.'
<aes> I haven't had malibu and coke
<aes> but tia maria and coke is nice
<aes> so I can conceivable see it making sense
<thom> but, ewww, malibu
<sabdfl> sladen: i authorised a bit of rule-breaking there
<sladen> sabdfl: *nod*
<tuo2> mmm... tia maria.
* tuo2 makes a tia and milk
<pitti> sjoerd: here?
<sjoerd> pitti: yes, but not for long
<pitti> sjoerd: I currently don't like the g-v-m approach of calling mount/pmount/umount/pumount
<pitti> sjoerd: I would rather like to have g-v-m use the gnome-vfs functions
<pitti> sjoerd: this way only gvfs needs to be patched for pmoutn
<sjoerd> pitti: agreed
<pitti> sjoerd: and I could leave g-v-m alone
<pitti> sjoerd: would you adopt this?
<pitti> sjoerd: it should even adopted upstream, I guess
<sjoerd> pitti: if it doesn't have regressions wrt our current way, ofcourse
<pitti> sjoerd: then I will prepare a patch, test it in Ubuntu and send it to you
<sjoerd> pitti: cool
<sjoerd> pitti: send it to pkg-utopia-devel so that's actually used :)
<pitti> sjoerd: oh, nice idea
* sjoerd gotto go to follow a class now
* pitti adds these lists to his mutt config
<sjoerd> later
<pitti> sjoerd: have fun!
* thom subs to pkg-utopia-devel too
<pitti> thom: BTW, still remember the hal-pumount-after-ripping-out problem?
<__daniel> hai mvo_
<pitti> thom: we still have this ugly pmount patch which drops uid verification
<pitti> thom: I'd like to get rid of that
<thom> pitti: still not sure how
<thom> pitti: i'd love to get rid of it, also
<pitti> thom: the problem was that g-v-m can't determine the device path for a removed hal id, right?
<pitti> thom: because hal already delted the db entry
<thom> correct
<thom> yep
<thom> so g-v-m would have to keep a cache of what it's mounted, and the hal id
<pitti> thom: I discussed that with sjoerd, hal should not be changed to remember the data after removal
<pitti> thom: yes; g-v-m currently manages a list of mounted devices (or, rather hal ids)
<pitti> thom: this could be changed into a mapping hal id -> device
<pitti> thom: and we were done
<thom> right, that sounds good
<pitti> thom: I recently had to introduce this moutn list to keep track of mounts
<pitti> thom: so we can as well do it completely right
<pitti> thom: the only problem is that this won't work any more if the user rips out a device after he logged out
<pitti> thom: my favourite solution would still be to have the kernel automatically unmount a device lazily, but that's more difficult to push upstream
<thom> pitti: yeah, that would be the best solution, but as you say, it's tricky to get in
<thom> but yes, your approach with g-v-m sounds good to me
<jamesh> pitti: until we have inotify, many devices won't lazy unmount anyway ...
<pitti> thom: I don't really see a reason why it should _not_ be done in the kernel
<pitti> thom: do you?
<pitti> jamesh: why not?
<pitti> jamesh: this works fine currently
<thom> pitti: I can't think of one
<jamesh> pitti: if there is a trash dir, Nautilus will have a dnotify watch on the drive even if no windows are open.
<pitti> jamesh: but still umount -l should work?
<jamesh> pitti: no.
<jamesh> a lazy unmount will wait til all open files are closed
<jamesh> and the dnotify watch is an open file
<pitti> jamesh: huh? why not? I've never seen a lazy unmount fail
<jamesh> pitti: by not work, I mean the unmount won't complete
<pitti> jamesh: well, the /proc/mounts entry should be gone in all cases, but of course the device is still accessed
<jamesh> the "umount -l" call will return, but the kernel won't actually unmount the device til all open files are closed
<pitti> jamesh: I think I just misunderstood you
<pitti> yes, right
<jamesh> it isn't safe to remove the drive til the unmount has really completed, right?
<pitti> right
<pitti> umount -l just prevents opening new files on it
<pitti> so new processes don't see the mount any more
<pitti> but existing file descriptors remain vallid
<pitti> valid
<jamesh> but fam/nautilus will still have an open file handle
<jamesh> since they were watching the .Trash-username directory on that volume
<pitti> for the .Trash?
<jamesh> yeah.
<pitti> ah,y es
<pitti> but still some thingy should unmount -l the device after a removal
<pitti> this does not solve the data corruption, but keeps the mtab clean
<pitti> that's our actual problem
<pitti> (for now)
<jamesh> with inotify, you don't actually have to open a file descriptor on the volume
<pitti> oh, that sounds promising
<jamesh> so watching for changes on the volume doesn't prevent the volume from being unmounted
<pitti> so inotify is kernel based, and dnotify is userspace?
<jamesh> both are kernel interfaces
* pitti did not deal with inotify up to now
<pitti> ah, but dnotify requires to open a file
<pitti> ?
<jamesh> yeah.
<pitti> "i" like inode?
<jamesh> with dnotify, you open the directory and run a special fcntl() on it.  Then the kernel sends a SIGIO signal whenever any of the directories you are watching change
<pitti> ah, and it is required to keep the dir open?
<jamesh> with inotify, you open a device (/dev/inotify, I think), send some ioctl()'s to say what you want to watch, then read events from the device
<pitti> sounds much nicer
<pitti> thanks for the explanation!
<jamesh> yes.  dnotify requires you to keep open all the directories you want to watch
* pitti looks forward to the future
<pitti> jamesh: do you now whether 2.6.9 already has it?
<jamesh> so the file descriptor limit is also the maximum number of directories you can watch with dnotify.
<mjg59> pitti: 2.6.9 doesn't have it
<__daniel> jamesh, i guess you'll have some other file descriptors around, already :-)
<pitti> but it is planned for the near future?
<mjg59> 2.6.10 stands a good chance
<jamesh> pitti: http://tech9.net/rml/log/2004092201.html <- some details on inotify from Rob Love.
<pitti> ah, this guy again :-)
<jamesh> pitti: the other nice thing is that Gamin (Daniel Veillard's FAM replacement) already supports inotify.
<jamesh> pitti: since it is ABI compatible with FAM, it should be trivial to switch over.
<pitti> nice
<pitti> I already heard jdub talk about gamin
<thom> (gamin's in universe already)
<pitti> readymade bed, as it seems :-)
<bob2> novell is funding some very interesting devlopement
<thom> bob2: gamin is RHAT, but yes :-)
<bob2> oh
<jamesh> Rumor is that the "d" in "dnotify" does not stand for "directory" but for "suck." -- rml
<bob2> well, they're doing nice interlocking stuff then :)
<fabbione> daniels: ping
<giard> just curious, has there been any talk of adding adm8211 (and a couple other of the wireless chipsets) to the ubuntu kernel to up the out-of-the-boxness for laptop users?
<daniels> fabbione: pong
<fabbione> daniels: who develop the savage driver?
<daniels> fabbione: thomas winischofer
<fabbione> daniels: is it done within X.org or outside?
<daniels> it's done within xorg now, iir
<fabbione> daniels: mind to check?
<daniels> google for 'twini savage' tho
<fabbione> daniels: *sighs*
<daniels> fabbione: sure, when I've stopped saturating my line with fd.o CVS ;)
<daniels> fabbione: ?
<fabbione> daniels: i am portforwarding patches...
<fabbione> i am at a level that i edit the patches directly without even reading the code
<fabbione> i only need to know which is the lastest version of that driver :-)
<daniels> heh :) yeah, editing patches by hand is crack
<fabbione> brb
<T-Bone> hi
<thom> hey
<T-Bone> Kamion: ping?
<sabdfl> lamont: still up?
<sabdfl> amu: around?
<Kamion> T-Bone: yep?
<T-Bone> Kamion: i'm willing to setup some box for you, let's see what you need? ;)
<Kamion> can we do it tomorrow? :)
<Kamion> today's warty release day
<T-Bone> sure ;)
<T-Bone> ah yes, of course
<T-Bone> just let me know if remote (network + netconsole) access to an IA64 server 2way is ok?
<T-Bone> it'll be setup with debian sarge, unless you want something else, and you'll be free to screw it anyway you like
<T-Bone> :)
<Kamion> that sounds fine
<Kamion> thanks :-)
<T-Bone> Kamion: ok, i'll prepare that and we'll polish the setup tomorrow ;)
<fabbione> T-Bone: i might need access too :(
<fabbione> but not until warty is built there
<T-Bone> fabbione: ok we'll check that out tomorrow
<fabbione> T-Bone: take the time you need.
<fabbione> I have no rush atm
<T-Bone> ok
<fabbione> we are talking about X ;)
<fabbione> so there is time
<T-Bone> i'll try to fix the stage1 package trouble in the meantime, and get the second stage builder up and running
<T-Bone> lol
* T-Bone goes in the basement to setup the box, bbiab
<amu> sabdfl: yap
<sabdfl> have some livecd feedback
<sabdfl> no desktop image at all, just the X stipple
<sabdfl> gnome panel starts ok
<sabdfl> but nautilus seems to be stuck
<amu> I guess a slower laptop ? right ? 
* lamont is awake
<lamont> well, sort of
<amu> lamont: wb 
<amu> sabdfl: could you say somewhat more about the system?
<lamont> sabdfl: how much RAM in that system?
<seb128> any message by running "nautilus" from a gnome-terminal ?
<pitti> jamesh: do you know any reason why gnome-vfs allows to unmount a device, but not to mount it?
<pitti> jamesh: I want to modify g-v-m to use the gvfs interface, instead of being patched for pmount
<Kamion> anyone here running an Ubuntu cdimage mirror?
<fabbione> daniels: did you see my message before about the hotel?
* lamont gets email from alex explaining how to get the firmware into the build
<daniels> fabbione: yeah
<lamont> mdz awake?
<sabdfl> amu, lamont, about 512MB
<sabdfl> the draft announcement text is at http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fFinalReleaseAnnouncement
<sabdfl> please cast an eye over it for obvious issues
<sabdfl> it will go out in plaintext so ignore the wiki formatting glitches
<amu> sabdfl: cpu ? 
<amu> testing now 07 
<sabdfl> amu: recent, it's a new toshiba test laptop, morphix was working fine
<sabdfl> Kamion: will need that list of url's in about 10
<Kamion> sabdfl: see #canonical
<amu> sabdfl: those toshiba satellite's ?
<T-Bone> Kamion: ok the box is ready, awaiting for your details tomorrow ;) I'm gonna stop bugging you till then ;)
<pitti> enrico: thanks a lot for signing my key :-)
<enrico> pitti: no problem... sorry for being so so late
<enrico> pitti: (I finally got weasel's new script to work)
<pitti> enrico: there's a fancy script for such things?
<pitti> enrico: nice
<enrico> pitti: check pgp-tools.alioth.debian.org
<pitti> enrico: great, thanks
<enrico> pitti: there's a couple of gotchas for getting it to work, though
<sabdfl> amu: yes, think so
<lamont> who was it that was getting 20 minut download times?
<amu> sabdfl: cool, TOSHIBA is hard to support it. My friends one, will not boot a liveCD doent matter if it knoppix,gnoppix,morphix, it fails all time. "HP" should be the choose *ducks*  
<pitti> seb128: do you happen to know why $PATH exports in .bashrc are simply ignored in gnome terminal / xterm?
<sabdfl> amu: previous warty live cd's worked fine
<sabdfl> well, at least the desktop image showed
<amu> sabdfl: what happen ( output ) if he/she start it from a term ?   
<seb128> pitti: they are not here ..
<pitti> seb128: hmm, I'm lost with this. My .bashrc contains "export PATH=/home/martin/bin:$PATH"
<pitti> seb128: but still, after "source ~/.bashrc" the PATH is unmodified
<pitti> seb128: this does not happen on text consoles or e. g. fvwm, so I thought this was a gnome bug^feature
<pitti> seb128: there are some relevant posts on u-users, too
<seb128> weird
<seb128> I'll have a look
<pitti> so at least I'm not the only one
<seb128> but here I've an "export PATH=$PATH:/usr/games" in ~/.bashrc
<seb128> and the PATH is right in my gnome-terminals
<pitti> seb128: hum, /usr/games is already in by default
<seb128> pitti: let me test on my fresh install
<pitti> seb128: can you try to add /home/seb/bin?
<pitti> seb128: this box is a fresh install from this morning
<sabdfl> amu: it just sits and does nothing at the terminal
<pitti> seb128: maybe it somehow filters out paths to private home dirs
<seb128> pitti: works
<pitti> seb128: not here; this drives me crazy...
<pitti> seb128: thanks anyway for testing
<seb128> pitti: it works on my main box, just trying on my test box
<seb128> 1 sec
<seb128> works fine
<seb128> that's an ~1h fresh install
* pitti bites in the table
<pitti> just tried that on my ~1.5 hour freshly installed iBook, same result :-(
<seb128> I've just added a "export PATH=$PATH:/tmp" on the bottom of ~/.bashrc
<pitti> seb128: nice idea; it indeed works if I add it at the _bottom_ (it was the very first line before)
<seb128> ok
* pitti slaps himself on the head
<seb128> some something in the file overwrite it
<pitti> I just saw that I source /etc/profile if I'm under X
<pitti> because it is not read by default for some strange reason
<pitti> ;-)
<seb128> ok, that's it so :p
<pitti> sorry
<pitti> for bothering you
<seb128> np
<amu> lamont: you run a changelog ? 
<lamont> sabdfl: btw, liveCD didn't get any of LiveSeed either: doesn't fit
<lamont> amu: Guess I should really start one, eh?
<lamont> last night's changelog is found in #ubuntu-devel :-(
<amu> sabdfl: strace could be your friend 
<amu> lamont: yes, please start a changelog 
<Kamion> amu: do you run the source.rfc822.org mirror?
<amu> Kamion: nope, lolo run it, but we have a closed relationship
<Kamion> how much notice does he need to grab release CD images?
<amu> the cron runs once a day, if something goes wrong, a phonecall
<amu> or icq :)
<Kamion> we're going to be publishing images at some point soon (hour or two), it would be nice if at least one mirror could start grabbing them when they're published and have them available by the time the announcement goes out
<Kamion> sorry for the short notice
<lamont> any bandwidth-possessing folks who can get < 30 minute liveCD download?
<lamont> < 45?
<Kamion> not a hope :(
<thom> http://noraisin.net/~jan/generators/ubuntu/ubuntu-release.php ; thanks to thaytan and jaq
<tseng> hah, Sleazy Salamander
<tseng> sleazy/main
<amu> Kamion: no prob, you can point to him, he really like it, if the server has something to do. letme know asap 
<Kinnison> "Pseudosquamate Prude"
<Kinnison> that rocks
<amu> lamont: now 2:30 :(  
<thom> and they happily got it right for 1 2 and 3
<Kamion> though not 4
<elmo_> init.d pretty == ugly on serial
<elmo_> like, ueber ugly
<Riddell> lamont: probably could
<lamont> Riddell: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041020-14/warty-live-i386-20041020-14.iso
<lamont> for extra credit, do you happen to have a wireless card that requires non-free firmware?
* Kinnison does
<Kamion> elmo_: doesn't /lib/lsb/init-functions know how to deal with $TERM?
<Kinnison> but it'll take me > 1h20 to download that :-(
<amu> lamont: yap 
<Riddell> lamont: I have a cisco wavelan
<Riddell> lamont: presumably you want me to burn and test once downloaded?
<elmo_> [ ok ] pping periodic command scheduler...
<elmo_> [ ok ] pping internet superserver...
<elmo_> Kamion: guess not :)
<Kamion> hoorah
<lamont> things I need to know and when: (1) ASAP, does 20041020-14 boot, or did it process-b0rk
<lamont> (2) does the firmware work in it?
* Kamion belatedly tests warty-install-powerpc
<Kinnison> ETA 1:38:00
<amu> Kamion: lolo said no prob, you're welcome to make some traffic
<amu> brb
<lamont> Riddell: yes, burn and boot
<lamont> best download time I could manage would be around 6 hours.
* lamont plans to look into taking a class at the local community college next quarter so as to get better bandwidth. :-)
<Riddell> will have to restart download on the CD burning machine in that case, it was already 1/3rd downloaded
<lamont> k
<lamont> amu: http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/changelog
* lamont wanders off for a few minutes
* T-Bone pings mako
<mako> T-Bone: yeah
* Kamion panics briefly at yaboot failing, then remembers that it doesn't support /boot on JFS
<Kinnison> heh
<Kamion> must make sure we import the partman-time warning about that for hoary
* Kinnison starts to worry that he won't have downloaded the livecd before he has to leave
<mdz> morning
<mako> mdz: greetings
<seb128> hello mdz 
<Kamion> mdz: happy to publish as final so mirrors can get at it?
<mdz> Kamion: install CD, yes
* Kamion is still testing powerpc, will finish that test run first
<mdz> what's the live CD situation?
<jamesh> pitti: still around?
<Kamion> apparently we publish "something" today and release for real on Monday
<pitti> jamesh: yes
<Kamion> live-CD-wise
<Kamion> powerpc in archive-copier
<jamesh> pitti: about your gnome-vfs/g-v-m question, gnome-vfs can be used to mount a drive, provided that there is an entry in /etc/fstab with the "user" option.
<jamesh> pitti: it doesn't have a way to represent an unmounted volume without an entry in /etc/fstab
<pitti> jamesh: which I don't have...
<pitti> jamesh: I already tried with ..._get_connected_drives()
<pitti> jamesh: but it doesn't work
<pitti> jamesh: I think for this to work, gvfs needs to be compiled with hal support
<jamesh> pitti: in gnome-vfs, a GnomeVFSDrive _is_ an entry in the fstab file
<mdz> lamont: how did the testing go on the live CD?
<pitti> jamesh: I would construct a GnomeVFSDrive structure manually, but the interesting parts are private
<pitti> jamesh: actually I just need a public interface to gnome_vfs_volume_mount
<pitti> jamesh: so no chance?
<lamont> mdz: fabbione had booted it before I went to bed, and seemd good to him.
<jamesh> pitti: probably not.
<lamont> having said that...
<lamont> it doesn't have the firmware in it
<pitti> jamesh: I find it a bad design to patch both gvfs and g-v-m to use pmount
<lamont> and I f*&& the alsa startup link
<jamesh> pitti: however, there isn't as much reason to prefer gnome_vfs_volume_mount() over directly calling pmount
<pitti> jamesh: but thanks! I guess we have to live with that for a while...
<pitti> jamesh: oh, there was
<lamont> so some sound (at least) will still be muted - got reports that it was working now, so didn't think about that until this AM either.
<jamesh> pitti: none of the issues with dnotify that affect umount() apply here
<pitti> jamesh: we could leave g-v-m alone and sync it to Debian
<lamont> 20041020-14 has firmware, still no alsa fix
<pitti> jamesh: and g-v-m would be mount program agnostic
<sivang> lamont : have you had good reports for booting the live cd on dell inspirons?
<lamont> and that's being grabbed by Riddell for process check
<lamont> sivang: only your "no good" report
<sivang> lamont : ok, then maybe it's something wrong with the download :(
<lamont> I've had some images that were unhappy, where reburning helped.
<jamesh> pitti: I don't know whether it is recommended to enable HAL support in gnome-vfs yet.
<lamont> (and btw, if the CD-R says 8X, you shouldn't burn at 32x :-( )
<pitti> jamesh: me neither, I think I just leave it as it is by now
<amu> lamont: thx 
<pitti> jamesh: was the counterpart to gnome_vfs_volume_unmount just forgotten, isn't it there on purpose?
<pitti> jamesh: s/,/, or/
<jamesh> pitti: a GnomeVFSVolume is a mounted volume
<jamesh> pitti: so it is already mounted :)
* pitti dreams about GnomeVFSVolume* gnome_vfs_volume_mount( const char* device_node )
<jamesh> a GnomeVFSDrive represents something that can be mounted, so there is a gnome_vfs_drive_mount()
* lamont adds md5sums to the directorues
<jamesh> ideally, we should be getting a GnomeVFSDrive for USB sticks, etc
* pitti changes his dream to GnomeVFSDrive* gnome_vfs_drive_mount( const char* device_node )
<pitti> by now I already needa GVFsDrive to mount a GVFSDrive, which is kind of pointless for my needs :-)
<mdz> mako: do we have a release announcement prepared?
<pitti> jamesh: okay, thanks anyway!
<lamont> mdz: scrollback about 85 minutes in #c
<thom> mdz: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fFinalReleaseAnnouncement
<mdz> lamont: what's wrong with the alsa stuff?
<mdz> thanks
<lamont>  morphix/rc.m/../init.d/alsa != /etc/init.d/alsa
<lamont> brain fart
<lamont> and reported as good, so I didn't notice it
<mdz> that weird indentation is unintentional, right?
<lamont> the extra space?
<mako> mdz: should be
<lamont> was gonna type a leading slash...
<pitti> I've got to go, guys; happy release party!
<mako> mdz: i'd like to work on that a little bit when you're done with it
<mdz> lamont: no, in the release announcement
<mako> mdz: yeah, i'm sure
<mdz> mako: I'm only looking; feel free
<lamont> yeah - indentation is kinda funny
<mako> i think the first line/paragraph is a little engimatic for a message with very wide distribution
<sabdfl> mdz: which weird indentation? the wiki rendering is strange, check the plaintext rendering
<lamont> and the penultimate word should be 'in', not 'at'.
<mdz> yes, it's written with plaintext formatting
<sivang> mako : it basically sums it up isn't it?
<sabdfl> mdz: livecd situation is... flaky, bad bugs on test laptops here, but still go for rc afaics
<mdz> lamont: is the fix for the alsa thing trivial?
<Riddell> lamont: it didn't boot for me
<Riddell> lamont: don't know if that's due to a bad burn or not
<lamont> mdz: trivial
<mdz> lamont: building a new image with that?
<Riddell> lamont: it gets as far as "Linux-bzImage setup=xxx size=xxx" and that's all it does
<lamont> mdz: home edition just built, testing.
<lamont> then dc edition
<mdz> Riddell: sounds like a burn problem
<sabdfl> mako: are you editing the release announcement?
<sabdfl> mdz: are you happy with the release announcement?
<mdz> sabdfl: can you give me a quick diff vs. the RC announcement?
<mdz> it looks mostly the same
<sabdfl> elmo_: you too?
<mako> sabdfl: yeah, i am
<sabdfl> mdz: not easily
<mdz> sabdfl: I would s/FAST/fast/
<elmo_> one sec
<Kamion> ok, powerpc's far enough into second stage that I think I'm happy with it, will publish over the next few minutes
<sabdfl> mako: it's telling me that you are still editing
<elmo_> yeah, looks ok to me
<elmo_> but agree with de-capitalization of mdz's
<sabdfl> mako: please don't make any substantial changes at this stage
<mako> sabdfl: right, i'm just doing small th ings
<mako> sabdfl: but... in the first bullet.. there's more space devoted to non-free drivers than to the freeness of the distribution. it sounds kind of wishywashy.. i'd like to rewrite that
<mdz> sabdfl: will we have some means to test a representative of the batch of pressed CDs before they go out?
<mdz> it would be rather awful if they had some sort of defect
<sabdfl> mdz: good point. silbs? ^^
<Kamion> sabdfl: I can come down to London and collect one of each to test
<sabdfl> Kamion: figure we can fedex a few to cambridge from Holland
<sabdfl> Kamion: ready to go?
<sabdfl> elmo_: ready to go?
<sabdfl> mdz: ready to go?
<sabdfl> mako: ready to go?
<mdz> ready
<elmo_> ready
<mdz> install CD only, right?
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> mako: ?
<mako> one thing
<mako> sabdfl: did you change any links?
<Kamion> sabdfl: brief delay on publishing here, one sec
<mako> sabdfl: in the announcement text?
* sabdfl scrambles to ctrl x the release announcement from his editor to reply...
<sabdfl> mako: no
<Kamion> going as fast as I can
<mako> i will quickly test the links then while Kamion is waiting
<sabdfl> 'k
<mako> they all work
* mako gives the go sign
<elmo_> err
<elmo_> you guys know release.u.c is still showing RC, right? ;)
<mako> oh wait
<mako> the download page is inaccurate
<Kamion> elmo_: 16:09 < Kamion> sabdfl: brief delay on publishing here, one sec
<mako> "Download Ubuntu 4.10 "The Warty Warthog" Release Candidate"
<Kamion> I'm working on it, stuff's running
<mako> probably shouldn't say RC
<Kamion> but I was delayed due to my development laptop being engaged in testing the release image :P
<mako> either
<mako> who is going to do this before we all collide on this 
<sabdfl> i've edited the page
<sabdfl> thom: could you nudge apache so it refreshes it's cache?
<elmo_> does it need de-cached?
<sabdfl> for the web site?
<elmo_> nudged
<mako> ok. but release.u.c should be fixed
<elmo_> mako: kamion's working on that
<elmo_> see above
<mako> right right
<Kamion> what live CD should be in there?
<mdz> Kamion: I think none yet
<sabdfl> ctrl x again
<lamont> I'm most comfortable with 20041020-07
<Kamion> I currently have 20041020-07
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> mdz: we definitely need a candidate there
<lamont> but would like to drop 20041020-16 in once it gets downloaded and booted at least once
<sabdfl> as long as it's -test- or -release-candidate-
<Kamion> sabdfl: -rc-
<Kamion> can do -rc2- etc. as needed
<lamont> yeah - definitely not release yet.
<mdz> the only live CD I've personally tested is -05
<Kamion> gah, md5sum on ISOs SO SLOW
<sabdfl> 'k
<lamont> Kamion: md5sum.txt is in my directories now
<lamont> -16 won't be there until about :32, btw
<lamont> sound happier now though
<sabdfl> Kamion?
<Kamion> sanity-checking
<sabdfl> in this crowd?
* thom checks sabdfl's sanity. sorry, failed
<Kamion> elmo_: might've been an idea to change Description: in dists/warty/Release
<elmo_> DOH
<elmo_> can I do that now?
<elmo_> will take 5 mins
<elmo_> we so need a friging release check list
<Kamion> won't affect CDs anyway, too late to rebuild them
<mdz> perhaps best to leave the archive in sync with the CDs
<sabdfl> elmo_: was just typing one on the wiki for hoary :-)
<Kamion> syncing to mirnyy now
<elmo_> aww, dude, it sucks
<elmo_> it's not even "Release candidate", it's "Preview!
<elmo_> s/!/"/
<Kamion> elmo_: sorry, only noticed it when I glanced at the .jigdo :(
<elmo_> Kamion: not your fault, my respons
<Kamion> I don't think it matters if the CD's Description: is different
<Kamion> releases.u.c synced, PLEASE SANITY-CHECK
<elmo_> mdz: also, shall I untouchable it
<elmo_> mdz: or are you still planning to change universe post-release?
<mdz> I don't see Description: in the Release files that apt downloaded?
<Kamion> mdz: dists/warty/Release, not dists/warty/main/binary-i386/Release ...
<mdz> elmo_: I think we'll probably mess with universe post-release, but it would be very nice to have the safeguard for main+restricted
<mdz> elmo_: if it's not possible to do them separately, let's untouchable the whole thing for now; it's reversible, right?
<elmo_> ok I'll untouchable it, and figure out how to de-untouchable universe later
<lamont> mdz: I'd just as soon freeze universe as well
<mdz> lamont: is mplayer still completely borked?
<lamont> "warty's out, see hoary"
<lamont> not if you're on a Xeon :-(
<mdz> mplayer is basically the entire use case for multiverse
<mdz> and it doesn't work
<lamont> right
<Kamion> would appreciate somebody making sure that the .torrents work
<lamont> would be nice to bounce on multiverse for a few days
<elmo_> oh!
<elmo_> I need to restart our torrent clients
<sivang> I guess now wouldn't be to report trouble with installing using Adaptec SCSI 7899 adapter..:)
<mdz> sabdfl, lamont: silbs pointed out in email that celestia is still referenced in the UI despite having been removed. can we get henrik or whomever to fix that?
<lamont> mdz: he was on that distro
<thom> checking the torrent stuff
<mdz> yes, but I didn't see a reply and have no idea what timezone he is in
<lamont> has .uk addr, but..
<thom> mdz: he's in oxford
<thom> so UTC+1
<sabdfl> should i prepare a /. port so long?
<sabdfl> post
<sivang> Kamion : try download from release. ?
<mdz> sabdfl: yes
<mdz> unless you want to leave it to someone else
<Kamion> sivang: sure, .torrents might not work yet though
<mdz> would be nice to have one without typos, spelling errors, etc.
<sabdfl> sorry, disconnected for a while
<sabdfl> mdz: yes, live cd needs tweaks to that ui
<sabdfl> silbs can sync with henrik
<sabdfl> the Release description, mdz, happy to go out with that as is?
<mdz> sabdfl: I'm happy to call it a wart
<sabdfl> fine
<mdz> unless you want to delay for another round of CD testing
<sabdfl> kamion, elmo_, mako, can we go?
<mdz> does any tool actually display that description?
<mdz> I thought it was more or less unused anyway
<elmo_> can someone verrify the otrrents are working first?
<sabdfl> need a firm go from each of you
<mdz> elmo_: thom is on it
<thom> the seeders are still processing the new isos
<sabdfl> thom: eta?
<elmo_> my two victim clients seem happier now
<lamont> Kamion: were'd the liveCD iso get put?  or waiting for -16?
<Kamion> lamont: on releases.u.c, warty-rc-live-i386.iso
<sabdfl> i'm happy for the announcement to go out without the rc live cd in place if you want to hold for -16
<lamont> oh. not cdimage.u.c
<Kamion> | error(s): [16:30:27]  rejected by tracker - Requested download is not authorized for use with this tracker.                                                                                                     |
<mdz> Kamion: which torrent?
<Kamion> lamont: it's there too somewhere, can't remember where now
<Kamion> mdz: http://releases.ubuntu.com/warty/warty-release-install-i386.iso.torrent
<mako> sabdfl: yes
<lamont> no torrent for livecd rc that I see...
<mdz> [08:31:17]  Problem connecting to tracker - HTTP Error 503: Service Unavailable
<Kamion> I'll do that now
<thom> uh
<mdz> now getting rejected
<Kamion> should be a live torrent now
<thom> mdz: tell you why, has the releases.u.c script changed on mirnny?
<lamont> [09:33:45]  rejected by tracker - Requested download is not authori
<mdz> thom: there's a releases.u.c script on mirnny?
<thom> or rather, Kamion needs to trigger auckland as well as mirnny
<Kamion> er, I do
<thom> for releases
<Kamion> trigger () {
<Kamion>         ssh -i "$SECRET/auckland" archvsync@"$1" sleep 1
<Kamion> }
<Kamion> trigger auckland
<Kamion> trigger mirnyy.ubuntu.com
<thom> well, there are only rc-install in the appropriate directory
<Kamion> which?
<thom>  /srv/ftp.root/releases/warty on auckland
<thom> triggered manually, checking
<Kamion> I'm triggering it as best I know how
<Kamion> if I need to do something else you need to tell me what :)
<thom> releasessync
<Kamion> that user?
<thom> sorry. archvsync user, script is called releasessync
<sivang> tonnret not authorizing me to downlod
<Kamion> thom: I don't have any control over the script that's run, it's command-limited
<thom> Kamion: ah
<thom> that'd do it
<Kamion> thom: make the default archvsync on auckland call releasessync
<thom> archvsync or cdsync?
<thom> uh, cdimagesync i guess
<thom> yeah
<lamont> sigh.  2 new RC bugs
<lamont> neither of which is obviously NOTWARTY
<mako> sabdfl: where are you sending the announcement?
<elmo_> Cur: nan bits/sec
<sabdfl> mako: i will just send to ubuntu-users and -devel as soon as we go
<thom> still rsync
<thom> ing
<elmo_> phear our bw.  or our 32 bit counters.  one of the two
<mako> sabdfl: ok, want me to resend to -announce?
<lamont> elmo_: LOL
<sabdfl> also, am going to ask everyone to post to slashdot
<mako> sabdfl: that's really the correct place
<sabdfl> mako: good point. can i do that one too?
<mako> sabdfl: yeah, it's moderated but i think i can find it my heart to approve the message :)
<sabdfl> mako: would you handle the external communities?
* Kamion wonders if /. will be impressed by being article-bombed, or just killfile us
<sabdfl> mako: you gem
<mako> sabdfl: yeah.. i'll send it down the line to places i know of
* T-Bone fears the /. effect ;)
<mako> can coordinate with people on IRC
<Riddell> lamont: live CD mostly works in failsafe mode for me, I suspect burn problems
<lamont> good
<mdz> elmo_: how high can we burst now (bandwidth, not counters :-P)
<Kamion> amu: can you ping lolo to kick off a mirror of releases.ubuntu.com, pleasE?
<Kamion> er, "please"
<mdz> gig?
<elmo_> mdz: yeah, gig
<mdz> not that we'll have any clue how much we're actually using :-)
<mdz> I always meant to write a cricket module which polled the local interface counters
<T-Bone> hehe
<mdz> rather than using SNMP
<thom> dear god our disk io sucks
<mdz> I think they're larger now
<Kamion> thom: even just copying ISOs around on little is tedious
<mdz> we should be able to count up to about 109mbit/sec with 32-bit counters and 5-minute polling, I think
<fabbione> Kamion: do you know who had the insane idea to add the -live cd to the daily build?
<mdz> elmo_: it would be a good idea to set up a second cricket target with faster polling
<mdz> 1 minute would let us count up to ~500mbit
<Kamion> fabbione: me, it was a temporary hack to make the publish-release script not hate me
<sabdfl> mdz: hosting provider has external counters
<fabbione> Kamion: ok :(
<mdz> sabdfl: ah
<mdz> sabdfl: do they publish pretty graphs for us?
<Kamion> fabbione: sorry if it caused problems; I suggest you just mirror warty-install-* and MD5SUMS
<lamont> 20041020-16 is available for those who want sound to work
<sabdfl> passwd protected, yes
<fabbione> Kamion: no need to be sorry.. it was just killing my pr0n download :PPP
<sabdfl> those who can, haul on -16 so we can decide if it's rc material sooner rather than later
<mdz> lamont: downloading
<elmo_> no, we will, iptraf works
<elmo_> I've got it running on snares
<Kamion> fabbione: I've removed it from there now
<elmo_> GRR
<fabbione> Kamion: thanks mate
<elmo_> so the wrong time to unplug the switch
<elmo_> sabdfl: dude, they're on crack
<Kamion> :-)
<sabdfl> lamont: is it in the same location as previous? people.u.c?
<lamont> sabdfl: yeah
<elmo_> they're the counters that reckoned we were doing half of what we were actually doing
<lamont> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD is the root
<fabbione> lamont: is the same one as this morning?
<lamont> current is the rc bits, not the latest
<lamont> fabbione: that one is less than 5 minutes old
<fabbione> lamont: ok. downloading now
<lamont> the RC on releases.u.c is from 0750 BST this AM
<fabbione> lamont: specific checks to do? audio was working on me this morning both laptop & workstation
<mdz> elmo_: if those are the counters they use for billing, that's a FEATURE
<sabdfl> mdz: agreed :-)
<thom> ok, we should be good for torrent love
<elmo_> see, linux reckons we're doing 200Mb/s right now
<mdz> i386 torrent works for me
<sabdfl> torrents, GO
<Kamion> live torrent doesn't work
<mdz> yeah, trying that, nothing yet
<lamont> "connecting to peers"
<mdz> likewise
<sabdfl> 'k
<mdz> thom: live cd torrent?
<lamont> are we short a seed?
<sabdfl> torrents, STOP
<elmo_> AVANTE.. AVANTE... ARRET... ARRET..
<T-Bone> hehe
<thom> live cd torrent looks fine
<thom> working for me
<Kamion> ah, it's working now
<Kamion> sabdfl: I'm signed off
<mdz> working for me now as well
<mdz> testing amd64 and powerpc torrents
<fabbione> lamont: ETA 55minutes for LiveCD
<amu> Kamion: ^k
<Kamion> amu: thanks
<mdz> nothing yet
<mdz> lamont: ETA 26 minutes for -16
<mdz> lamont: assuming there isn't a -17 yet
<lamont> nothing here for live torrent
<mdz> ok
<lamont> mdz: no -17 planned
<mdz> all torrents working for me
<sabdfl> all torrents go
<Kamion> amd64 and powerpc torrents work for me
<sabdfl> Kamion: all iso's go?
<Kamion> yes
<mdz> I'm signed off
<amu> lamont: -7 is well done, guess for most people it will work well
<sabdfl> elmo_?
<thom> grah, my uber cheap pair of ide software raid 1 server kicks the tar out of auckland for bt image checking
<sabdfl> mako?
<elmo_> sabdfl: standing by with the fire extinguisher
<elmo_> (i.e. AVANTE!)  err, or go
<mdz> Kamion: did you verify the md5sums of the published images against what I posted to ubuntu-devel for paranoia's sake? :-)
<Kamion> mdz: I verified them against the daily; let me check
<elmo_> thom: dude, your ide SW RAID 1 isn't doing 60Mb/s of other stuff :P
<amu> lamont: my usb-stick mounts not automatic *duck* 
<mako> sabdfl: yes
<lamont> amu: is it when you boot an installed warty?
<amu> lamont: livecd 
<Kamion> mdz: check
<lamont> amu: yes.  But does the usb stick automount if you're running the non-live warty?
<amu> lamont: yes
* lamont blames startup scripts
<sabdfl> RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT: Ubuntu 4.10 "The Warty Warthog Release" is DONE!
<sabdfl> Read the full announcement at http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/WartyWarthog_2fFinalReleaseAnnouncement?action=raw
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Ubuntu Artwork week! | 13 (count 'em) major bugs | BE THE SIGNAL | Warty release is DONE
<sabdfl> and well done mdz
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu development -- general discussion on #ubuntu | Happy Warty Day! | 13 (count 'em) major bugs | BE THE SIGNAL | Warty release is DONE
* mdz does the warthogs dance
<Sledge> *applause*
<tseng> so
* fabbione joins mdz
<tseng> is warty/universe closed for business?
<T-Bone> cla clap clap
<elmo_> WOO WOO SUMMON THE POLICE
<T-Bone> lol
<thom> elmo_: you've forgotten the second line of that
<Mitario> congrats you guys!
<sabdfl> tseng: yes, security updates only, hoary will be open shortly and we're looking for volunteers to steer the universe component
<tseng> sabdfl: ok, cheers
<thom> sabdfl: can we bounty a BT server that DOESN'T SUCK for hoary? :-)
<lamont> mdz: gonna change /topic in #ubuntu as well?
<tseng> sabdfl: id like to help make mono a first class citizen this time around
<mdz> 256 people in #ubuntu!
<sabdfl> tseng: that's awesome!
<sabdfl> mdz: and climbing :-)
<tseng> you've got a ways to go to beat the Big 2
<tseng> #gentoo and #debian both > 800 :)
<carlos> tseng: we are new, let us more time...
<carlos> :-D
<tseng> heh.
<mdz> tseng: give us time; we only just released 5 minutes ago :-)
<Kamion> with the current population of #ubuntu I can still just about follow it sometimes
<Kamion> wouldn't want it to be #debian-sized, I'd collapse under the weight :)
<elmo_> #ubuntu size channels and up are just utter time sinks
* Kamion goes off for a bit to ferry people to shops; got my mobile phone with me if needed
<sabdfl> Kamion: well done on the installer
<Kamion> ta
* lamont takes a short break, with plans to come back and beat mplayer about the head just to torture elmo/mdz et al.
<fabbione> mdz: did Joey put the DSA out purpose 1 hour after our release?
<fabbione> out + on
<mdz> fabbione: maybe :-)
<fabbione> mdz: ok.. i have the packages ready...
<fabbione> should we wait tomorrow?
<mdz> fabbione: I think so, yes
<mdz> thom: is it possible to clean up the torrent status page without resetting the statistics?
<mako> mdz: how many people in #redhat
<mako> i can't figure out how to count that in irssi
<amu> Kamion: sorry can't reach lolo now. I try it in 15min. calls ;)    
<mdz> mako: /who #redhat
<mdz> mako: I count 48? #fedora might be a better comparison
<thom> mdz: nope
<mdz> thom: at least the latest stuff sorts nicely to the bottom
<thom> by happy accident, yeah
<thom> :-)
<thom> oh, joy and rapture
<thom> that mozilla bug looks joyous
<sabdfl> erk
<sabdfl> try Applications -> About Ubuntu
<sabdfl> should be the on-disk thing
<fabbione> mdz: ok let's look at it tomorrow
<fabbione> brb
<mdz> thom,elmo_: downloads from releases.u.c are timing out
<sivang> congrets for the release!
<elmo_> I've upped the number of children
<elmo_> is it better now?
<fabbione> lamont: burning live now
<lamont> fabbione: thanks
<amu> brb
<fabbione> lamont: after that.. a fast test and i am off
<fabbione> it's the 3rd day in a raw 5am -> 7pm
<fabbione> s/raw/row
<mdz> lamont: I have -16 booted now
<mdz> looks the same as the last one to me
<mdz> (my sound devices are still detected in the wrong order)
<mdz> otherwise, fine
<thom> just hit lwn
<fabbione> elmo_: what is the status for warty-security?
<elmo_> oh, right
<fabbione> elmo_: i have a <whatever_name_we_want_for_our_sec_annoounce> to do
<fabbione> elmo_: i guess target is warty-security. is there anything else that i need to do other than upload the usual way?
<elmo_> fabbione: don't upload it just yet, unless it's public
<fabbione> it is alread
<fabbione> DSA was out 20 minutes ago
<elmo_> well, don't upload it anyway
<fabbione> i am not to :-)
<elmo_> ok
<fabbione> that's why i am asking ;)
<elmo_> I'm working on it
<fabbione> sure
<elmo_> [mdz: ]  did we get a final say on who's going to be doing/approving these uploads?
<mdz> elmo_: I'll approve them
<lamont> mdz et al: do we want our mplayer source to always build a runtime-detected CPU?
<elmo_> mdz: just  you?
<mdz> elmo_: just me for now, I don't want this to hold anything up
<elmo_> ok
<elmo_> it's not holding anything up, I just need to know
<lamont> that is, if joe user downloads source and says dpkg-buildpackage, I think he's stuck with getting the same build as we get unless he changes something.
<mdz> lamont: yes we do
<mdz> the same gcc flags we normally build with, and enabling the hand-optimized stuff at runtime
<mdz> elmo_: regarding the timeouts, my download seemed to get going as soon as you did that
<fabbione> elmo_, mdz: ok.. i will wait for you two to decide.
<mdz> elmo_: starts immediately on further attempts as well
<mdz> so, yes, seems to have helped
<elmo_> yeah, sorry, I forgot to fix it's apache like we fixed aucklands
<thom> elmo_: was that mirnyy?
<lamont> test build running, then I'll see how it runs on my athlon
<lamont> k7 anyway
<lamont> must run for a bit
<fabbione> lamont: booting now
<elmo_> thom: yeah
<thom> d'oh
<elmo_> lamont: please don't do any more universe uploads
<lamont> fabbione: and note which background you get.
<thom> wonder why no-one complained about it on RC
<elmo_> until I have a chance to do per-component suite mapping
<lamont> elmo_: no uploads planned until mdz forces me to.
<elmo_> ok
<lamont> jdub awake yet?
<elmo_> I know how to wake him up..
<elmo_> jdub: QUICK, sabdfl snuck the nekkid people back in while you were sleeping!
<doogie> ooh, magic powers
<sabdfl> muahaha
<thom> hehehe
<doogie> *back in*?
<mdz> doogie: cf. ubuntu-users archives
<fabbione> ROTFL at LKML-announce
<thom> oh, the one pager problem is because the images for the bullet points are on the net. thought jdub had that in had (he told me about the problem)
<sabdfl> fabbione: link?
<live_from_dk> sabdfl: i got it via email
<live_from_dk> just a sec
<live_from_dk> lamont: background seems ok to me
<live_from_dk> as this morning
<doogie> I'm actually *on* l-k.  what announce?
<fabbione> doogie: To: linux-kernel-announce@vger
<fabbione> Subject: Oh yeah
<fabbione> GOD IS A PIG!
<fabbione> (don't tell me this gets through hehe)
<fabbione> -
<fabbione> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel-announce" in
<fabbione> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
<fabbione> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
<doogie> I can guess the address.  more interested in the content.
<doogie> oh, waste of irc bw
<fabbione> sabdfl: people are on full crack :-)
<live_from_dk> lamont: sound is ok here
<live_from_dk> lamont: anything else you want me to test?
<thom> sabdfl: hrm, /. claims that the newest article is available to subscribers
<thom> sabdfl: is it us? :-)
<elmo_> people subscribe to slashdot?
<thom> that'd be a no
<sabdfl> thom: dunno
<thom> elmo_: apparently so
<sabdfl> how do i find out?
<sabdfl> i'd a subscriber
<sabdfl> m
<thom> sabdfl: log in, and it'll say "the next article is blah blah blah
<thom> "
<thom> and you should be able to see it
<thom> (guessing, i've never subbed to /.)
<sabdfl> don't see it
<thom> yeah, it's already posted
<thom> and it's not us
<live_from_dk> lamont: i am off for today..
<fabbione> cya tomorrow guys
<thom> ciao
<fabbione> ciao :-)
<fabbione> have fun in Uk
<fabbione> and drink a beer for me too
<thom> only "a"
<fabbione> thom: yeah...
<T-Bone> that's mean ;)
* T-Bone ducks!
<fabbione> a (couple of liters of) beer ;)
<elmo_> 245Mb/s
<thom> heh
<T-Bone> hehe
<T-Bone> elmo_: nice ;)
<sabdfl> it says pending on my sub to /.
<thom> mirnyy's up to 120 concurrent requests
<doogie> is the iso released?
<mdz> yes
<doogie> got a bt?
<mdz> yes
<elmo_> mirnyy's doing the vast bulk of that too
<elmo_> like 90%
<doogie> I can attach a 350kB/s(all I am willing to give to it) client
<doogie> I don't see a torrent link on the site
<thom> doogie: http://releases.ubuntu.com/4.10/warty-release-install-i386.iso.torrent
<doogie> done
<thom> my personal server is sustaining 1.3MB/s on torrent uploads 
<thom> doogie: ta
* doogie fetches it first with wget at 440kB/s
* mako just submitted this to /. other should do the same
<mdz> doogie: the download page links to the directory, which has .torrents in it
<thom> mako: sample text?
<doogie> mdz: still, it'd be nice to advertise it
<doogie> I'm going to stop the wget after a bit, and let bt do the rest
<amu> re
<mako> thom: here what i put:
<mdz> elmo_: 245? nice
<mako> Ubuntu 4.10 Released
<mdz> relatively little torrent activity
<mako> <p><a href="http://www.ubuntulinux.org">Ubuntu</a> has just <a href="http://lwn.net/Articles/107267/">announced the release of Ubuntu 4.10</a>. For those that missed the preview, Ubuntu is the new Debian-based release backed by Mark Shuttleworth and put together by a number of folks from Debian, GNOME, and other communities. They are also still offering to ship CDs to interested folks free of charge.</p>
<mako> change as you feel is necessary
<mdz> people are still downloading old CD images
<mako> highlight you think is important and let the editors sort it
<mako> mdz: huh?
<mdz> mako: according to the torrent tracker
<mako> mdz: probably people just left them on
<doogie> ok, got 100M, starting bt
<mdz> mako: the 'downloading' column indicates there are still incomplete downloads in progress
<mako> mdz: seems possible/reasonable
<mako> people probably left them on
<mdz> where's the slashdot love?
<mako> more better different submissions to /. :)
<elmo_> if we don't get /. this time, it's officialy a conspiracy
<thom> heh
<mako> i understanding not posting a an RC
<mako> for a new distro
<mako> but this is the real deal baby
<mako> THEY HAVE NO EXCUSES
<mdz> agreed :-)
<sabdfl> i wonder if the 4.10 won't throw them off?
<sabdfl> "jjust a point release"
<mdz> sabdfl: the release announcement is fairly explicit
<mdz> The warm-hearted Warthogs of the Warty Team are proud to present the very first release of Ubuntu!
<sabdfl> jeez, the rc was much more explici
<sabdfl> t
<mako> sabdfl: but it was an RC
<mako> sabdfl: and if they read it, they knew we had a release coming the next week :)
<amu> sounds difficult submitt something on /. .... years ago it was much more easier. 
<Kamion> elmo_: joeyh was looking for you, did he manage to get in touch?
<elmo_> yep
<Kamion> good
* thom -> south kensington
<elmo_> wow, mirnyy doing a lot out of cache
<sabdfl> woot! accepted on /.
<elmo_> judging by the hd lights anyway
<thom> 242 concurrent requests on mirnyy
<carlos> slashdot effect, here we goo!!!!!
<Mitario> wait for #ubuntu to flow over ;)
<mako> wait. it's on /.?
<mako> i'm not seeing it
<carlos> me neither...
<sabdfl> my submission has switched from "pending" to "accepted"
<mako> it's not on the front page
<mdz> not yet
* mako shrug
<mako> shit sandwdich burning :)
<mjg59> It's on the front page now
<Mitario> not here ?
<mako> not for me
<thom> it's in the linux section, not hit the front page for me
<Mitario> ah
<mdz> conspiracy
<mjg59> Ah - I have all sections switched on
<Mitario> do we have a cool buritto like bot that can show me when <nick> was last seen? :)
<carlos> who wants to be the first post?
<carlos> X-)
<carlos> Mitario: /msg nickserv help
* mdz reloads furiously
<mdz> it's not even on the front page yet, and already has wildly inaccurate comments
<thom> uh, might want to change the screenshot on the www. site
<mako> or just remove them
<mdz> at least the "controversial" artwork is getting some press :-)
<elmo_> FRONT PAGE US YOU #%"^"
* lamont heads to town, lunch, and bandwidth
<carlos> dudes, who wants to know about NEC when we have the ubuntu release?
* carlos wants ubuntu announcement in front page now!
<carlos> :-D
* amu setup his buildsys and generate a global quality assurance checklist
<silbs> carlos: they heard you. Front page
<carlos> silbs: :-D
<mdz> perhaps a few hundred more submissions would help
<mdz> I don't see it
<carlos> me neither...
<silbs> wait, no I don't either. And colin's comment disappeared. Perhaps it's the champagne...
<amu> klick on the Slashdot Linux link on the left, there is it 
<mdz> colin's comment is there
<carlos> silbs: Colin's and Scott's posts are only visible if you select the answer to the first comment
<silbs> my bad. I must have been on linux not front page.
<amu> http://lwn.net/Articles/107267/ 
<mako> perhaps if more people submit it, it will be promoted to the front
<mako> edd said he would get someting for oreilly
<mako> i'll email a few more folks i know
<mxpxpod> question: if gcc 3.3 is the default, why does libgtkmm-2.4-dev install gcc-3.4?
<__daniel> oh: http://www.infodrom.org/~joey/log/?200410201843
<mdz> mxpxpod: it doesn't
<mxpxpod> mdz: it does on ppc
<Kamion> it's entirely possible and reasonable for a package to want a non-default gcc
<Kamion> are you sure you don't mean gcc-3.4-base, though?
<mdz> it would be rather odd for it to depend on gcc at all
<Kamion> indeed
<Kamion> in any case, libgtkmm-2.4-dev is in universe ...
<mxpxpod> when I do apt-get install libgtkmm-2.4-dev, it installs cpp-3.4, g++-3.4, and gcc-3.4
<Kamion> it's likely to be easier to find out what depends on it using a package management frontend a little more sophisticated than apt-get
<mdz> seems to be specific to powerpc
<Kamion> dselect would tell you; I assume aptitude will too
<mdz> it's due to libstdc++6-dev Depends: g++-3.4
<mxpxpod> oh, nice
<mdz> and something in that chain depends on libstdc++-dev, which is provided by libstdc++6-dev
<Kamion> still, universe :)
<mdz> yep
<Kamion> I'm guessing 3.4 will become the default by hoary, if not that then by grumpy
<mxpxpod> c++ stuff is universe?
<Kamion> no, but libgtkmm-2.4-dev is
<Kamion> there's libstdc++5-dev
<__daniel> unfortunately libxml++-2.*-dev isnt :-(
<mxpxpod> Kamion: so, is it a problem with libgtkmm-2.4-dev depending on libstdc++6-dev?
<mdz> no, it doesn't
<mdz> something else does
<mdz> it looks like a problem of some package depending on a pure virtual package with no concrete alternative
<mxpxpod> hmm
<doogie> I've sent 800MB thru bt
<mdz> apt happens to choose libstdc++6-dev rather than 5-dev
<mdz> which is perfectly legitimate
<mdz> doogie: 4.4GB here
<doogie> seeding now, of course
<mxpxpod> mdz: ok, I installed libstdc++5-dev and removed all the 3.4 stuff and libstdc++6, and libgtkmm-2.4-dev works fine
<sabdfl> guys i think i screwed up the /. submission by selecting Linux as the section
<sabdfl> i've emailed timothy (who accepted the story) and asked him to consider it for the main page
<mdz> ah
<mdz> sabdfl: add this to the release checklist? :-)
<sabdfl> mdz: yup :-)
<sabdfl> thought i was being helpful by Alex tells me he did the same thing for Plone 2.0 and it also went into a section
<silbs> Release checklist: 1. No naked people. 2. Slashdot main page or nothing at all.
* Kamion -> pub, bye all
<mdz> Kamion: enjoy
<carlos> X-)
<mdz> "I had never tried Debian before because the packages were too slow"?
<vorlon> mdz: gentoo user? :)
<mxpxpod> I've asked this before, but why does ubuntu use pbbuttonsd instead of pmud?
<lucas_> sbody familiar with X and mouse problems ? I have a regression regarding my touchpad, which worked out of the box with debian unstable and doesn't work (I can't use it to "click", I have to use the buttons) with ubuntu
<doogie> 1.6g
<vorlon> lucas_: installed the synaptic driver?  I think I noticed that this wasn't installed for me by default by Ubuntu.
<__daniel> mxpxpod, i didnt even hear of both before
<lucas_> vorlon: I didn't need it
<lucas_> actually, I just tested with an old knoppix, and it still doesn't work. Maybe my touchpad is broken ...
<mxpxpod> __daniel: the problem I have is that I let gnome do volume up/down, mute, and brightness up/down, but when pbbuttonsd does them, it messes with gnome
<chrisa> mxpxpod: Probably because pbbuttonsd works a hell of a lot better
<mxpxpod> __daniel: and I don't know of a way to tell pbbuttonsd to leave those things alone
<chrisa> Especially with things like gtkbbuttonsd
<__daniel> mxpxpod, oh :-(
<mxpxpod> chrisa: bah, gtkpbbuttons's themes suck
<sabdfl> response from /. is that they can't sanely switch a story from the linux to main sections, but i'm sure there will be more coverage in due course! they said they've been accused of bias towards us already because of all the coverage :-)
<chrisa> mxpxpod: Then don't use it. Either way, I have the same laptop as you and everything works flawlessly with pbbuttonsd
<mako> fair enough i suppose
<mako> i'm sure /. is accused of a lot of things :)
<__daniel> bye... see you later
<mxpxpod> chrisa: is there a way to get pbbuttonsd to step the volume up more than one on a volume up/down keypress?
<lamont_r> moo
<doogie> /. always was insane
<lucas_> does ubuntu do sthing out of ordinary with the mouse ? for example, use something like gpm ? my touchpad doesn't work with ubuntu, while it worked with debian. I'd like to try something before reinstalling debian just to check if my touchpad is actually broken ...
<amu> wb lamont
<lamont_r> hi amu
<mdz> lucas_: -> #ubuntu
* lamont_r fetches a new WinFOSS for the live CD, while watching his poor bt download get ~50KB/sec
<mdz> vorlon: the synaptics driver has been installed by default in ubuntu for some time
<lamont_r> damn college kids taking all the bandwidth... :-)
<vorlon> mdz: ok, I suppose the fact that I installed the preview has something to do with it. :)
<azeem> congrats, dudes
<mdz> vorlon: I think that even predates preview
<mdz> yep
<mdz> vorlon: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WartyWarthog_2fDesktopSeed?action=recall&date=1092046589
<amu> lamont_r: tested it on a ibm r40, Dell Optiplex GX270, Noname maschine with nvi, noname with ati and a virtual pc ...    
<lamont_r> -17?
<lamont_r> er, 16?
<vorlon> mdz: ok, we'll chalk it up to delirium then.
<amu> 7  
<lamont_r> ok
* mdz scrapes his fingernails on the chalkboard
<amu> a common problem was, the Xfree detection, Dell with nv it works, Dell with intel 82865 only 640*480, Dell with nv OK, IBM R40 with Radeon M7 7500 ( vesa ) noname with X800 pro ( vesa )  virtual pc S3 ( vesa ), sound works, all have problems with my usb stick, device is detected but not mounted, bootsplash still need a please hold the line and press ESC for detailed bootmessages 
<amu> desktop itself need some icons like Mail,Browser and a link to the FAQ .... homedir needs some dirs like Documents/Picture/Music ....  
<lamont_r> amu: I think the desktop and homedir are consistant with what's on the installed system, hence won't change
<lamont_r> seb128: jdub: or am I smoking crack?
<mdz> amu: the focus right now is on stability and functionality
<mdz> amu: we are not adding any new features to the live CD for Warty
<lamont_r> and it's not RC, like mdz said.
<doogie> 2g
<lamont_r> mdz: would better X detection be considered enhancement or RC, I wonder?
<lamont_r> since it's throwaway work for hoary, I expect
<mdz> lamont_r: bug, but not RC
<lamont_r> ok.
<mdz> the live CD seems to fall back to vesa pretty reliably
<amu> mdz: x autodetection is a small problem, vesa works, not good as it should  
<mdz> I don't particularly care if it's accelerated or not
<lamont_r> amu: could you file a bug (sev=normal) wrt autodetection?
<amu> ^k
<mdz> please don't
<mdz> this will all be obsoleted when we unify the hardware detection
<lamont_r> ok
<amu> k
<lamont_r> mdz: was thinking of steming the flow of user bug reports by having one there already.
<lamont_r> but then, users don't read.
<amu> test with many hardware today, the cd itself is functional, should i dl the latest for a final test ?  
<lamont_r> still need to generate one more with WinFOSS 0.4
<lamont_r> which is downloading now to my laptop, while I kill time at the coffee shop downloading the release i386 iso
<lamont_r> jdub prolly not awake yet, eh?
<amu> lamont_r: got too much problems building on amd64 in the chroot, i'm moving now to i386 pure, which is also faster ;) 
* amu googles about winfoss 
<lamont_r> amu: no surprise there
<amu> exefile on the computer, that look strange ;)
<lamont_r> yeah
* lamont_r mourns the death of his USB pen drive
<lucas_> arg my touchpad is not broken. This is good news for me and bad news for the ubuntu devel who will help me debug this ;-)
<amu> touchpad on the ibm R40 is also not working *ducks* 
<lucas_> amu: can you define not working ?
<lucas_> not working at all ?
* lamont_r would like to issue warty-rc2-live-i386.iso somewhere around 0500 UTC, with WinFOSS 0.4, and (hopefully) a new grub screen.
<lucas_> or you just can't click ?
<amu> my does not move 
<amu> my=mouse 
<lamont_r> mdz: I don't think there's really anything else to put in it...
<lucas_> ok
<amu> lucas_: .... -7 live-CD 
<amu> 33 matches for winfoss :)  
<lamont_r> amu: www.theopencd.net
<amu> got it, nice idea
* amu finally found a fax today ;) 
<amu> dammed, gpg should be global accepted ;) 
<lamont_r> wow - someone quit hogging bandwidth. :-)
<amu> lamont_r: wondershaper is your best friend   
<lamont_r> amu: sharing coffee shop's bandwidth with the rest of the patrons... No control over shaping
<lamont_r> interesting that either I'm on the tail end of the torrent, or something... 76Kdown, 10Kup
<TMIegel> hi
<TMIegel> i can't boot the LiveCD with my USB-CDRom
<TMIegel> have tried all the boot-options in the menu, but it can't find the morphix-filesystem afterwards
<amu> TMIegel: boot in general works ? which point system stops booting ?   
<nictuku> Hi! How can I tell if it's ok for you guys if I register a ubuntu.* domain for a community.
<Ng> is it at all possible to get a newer gksudo into Ubuntu?
<Ng> unless I'm being dumb the currently included version can't pass arguments to the command it executes
<Ng> but the newer versions in debian do seem to offer that
<TMIegel> amu: booting works, i get to the menu, then then it loads some scsi-modules but then it can'T access the cdrom
<lamont_r> Ng: debian versions should sync into hoary when it opens
<lamont_r> But warty is, well, like, _done_.
<amu> TMIegel: did you tried with bootparameter noscsi ? 
<TMIegel> it tries /dev/hd?[1-9] [0-9] 
<gma> I work for a company that is keen to convert quite a few of our standard PC users from win2k to Linux. we were just about to deploy UserLinux, but after two days with a Ubuntu box our IT people were sold on it. we'll be deploying the first boxes shortly, and are very impressed by what you've put together. so thanks very much.
<Ng> lamont_r: ok. what's the policy for updates to released versions? security only?
<TMIegel> no, i will
<lamont_r> Ng: that's on the wiki, but basically security or critical data corruption type issues
<amu> TMIegel: ok
<lamont_r> we get paid to do them for main/restricted, universe is merely subject to those policies for community uploads.
<lamont_r> or something like that
<Ng> lamont_r: great, thanks :)
<TMIegel> amu: no, doesn't work either. i have also tried usbboot=on
<nictuku> I dont mean to bother, but has my question about domain registration got in? this epic client is strange. hehe
<amu> TMIegel: what happen, if you boot with noscsi ? 
<TMIegel> amu: then it doesn't load the scsi modules, but same problem. it only detects the harddisk, but not the usb-cdrom
<lamont_r> nictuku: second
<amu> TMIegel: you usb-cdrom use the default usb-modules ? usb-uhci and usb-starage ?  
<TMIegel> amu: after enabling dma for hda it gives: "Warning: unable to find base module!"
<lamont_r> nictuku: biggest issue is that the folks who would know the answer to that question are predominantly in .uk, where it's 2220 on a release night...
<nictuku> hehe.
<amu> TMIegel: ah, try "nodma" 
<TMIegel> amu: i think so. the gentoo-minimal-install-cd 2004.2 works finde
<amu> TMIegel: probably a bug .....  
<amu> TMIegel: together noscsi nodma 
<TMIegel> amu: no, no go. same warning (and it doesn't detect hda then...)
<amu> lamont_r: pls note, bug: booting with usb-cdrom 
<amu> lamont_r: probably same with firewire   
<lamont_r> probably
<nictuku> do you personally believe it's ok to register that, lamont?
<amu> I've a idea how to fix it, but how i can test ... missing hardware 
* lamont_r has no opinion
<nictuku> thanks :)
<lamont_r> amu: same issue here
<amu> TMIegel: you're fine for a personal betatest ? 
<lamont_r> nictuku: I really dunno what the opinion would/should be, hence I'll limit myself to pointing in the direction of a definitive answer.
<TMIegel> amu: sure
<nictuku> That is very fine lamont, I thank you for that. Sorry if I sounded unpolite. 
<TMIegel> ok, knoppix (latest) works fine: after enabling dma for hda it states "Accessing KNOPPIX CDROM at /dev/scd0 ..."
<amu> TMIegel: I guess the order ( loading the usb modules ) is important/wrong on the liveCD 
<TMIegel> i have startet dl'ing the install cd and give that a try...
<lamont_r> nictuku: not at all.  I just _need_ to not be giving anything like a definitive answer, or even opinion on that topic.
<nictuku> I understand. I shall wait! =] 
<amu> TMIegel: ^k, letme know if it works there  
<lamont_r> amu: I have a USB cdrom, but I don't think the laptopwill boot from USB...
<amu> lamont_r: and your desktop ? 
<lamont_r> almost certain it has the same issue.
<lamont_r> OTOH, there might be another machine that would...
<amu> lamont_r: newer bioses, detect the usb-device only if it's plugged in. After you plugged in intu a slot, you see the option on your bios. Without a connected device no option  
<lamont_r> right
<nictuku> where can I find ubuntu's logo usage policy? couldn't find in the wiki.
<nictuku> hhmm /legal
<amu> http://www.pro-linux.de/news/2004/7409.html 
<mdz> nictuku: I believe jdub was writing it up
<Ng> is it bad form (or even possible) to mark bugs as duplicates in bugzilla? should I leave a comment saying it's a duplicate? email the assignee? :)
<Ng> I suppose that question really is "does anyone mind if I triage some bugs?" :)
<TMIegel> amu: i'll go to bed know, i will try the install cd tomorrow, will you be here then?
<TMIegel> i will see, god night everyone...
<__daniel> bye TMIegel
<__daniel> TMIegel, schlaf gut :-)
<amu> TMIegel: yap
#ubuntu-devel 2005-10-31
<madsen> tseng: !?! It just gave me the 'this application has quit' dialog - no output at all...
<zakame> pardon my ign, but how do I put footnotes in the ubuntu wiki page?
<wasabi_> Hmm. I am trying to call a Makefile, and pass it a CFLAGS addition, without overwriting the CFLAGS that the Makefile itself adds to it.
<madsen> tseng: See why I'm so mystified now?
<madsen> tseng: I didn't mean to throw a red herring when I said "screwed up mono install" - I meant that my mono install was really messed up. Don't know how, don't know why - but it definitely is.
<tseng> did you build anything from source
<tseng> because ive had no reports in all this time of this behaviour from packages
<madsen> tseng: Nope, all binary breezy packages.
<tseng> i use them daily myself
<madsen> tseng: I'm thinking that my base-install might have laid out the foundation for a really messed up system. I installed with debootstrab from a chroot under Agnula/Debian.
<tseng> i see
<madsen> tseng: However, I did follow the instructions from the wiki...
<wasabi_> Is 2.6.13 going to be uploaded at any point in the near future?
<wasabi_> Silly kernel module requires it.
<tseng> wasabi_: no
<wasabi_> Alas.
<tseng> kernel 2.6.14 is the target for dapper
<wasabi_> Hmm.
<tseng> madsen: well i obviously cant speak to our software working on someone elses kernel and libc
<wasabi_> But 2.6.13 isn't going to be up in the meantime?
<madsen> tseng: No no, I installed breezy in the chroot.
<tseng> uh
<tseng> chroot doesnt boot a kernel
<madsen> tseng: an entire breezy and then booted on it.
<tseng> for starters
<madsen> tseng: I know, but grub does. ;)
<tseng> hm well if that sounds like the instigating factor id like to hear how it works in a native breezy
<tseng> i dont have any other clues, first ive heard of it
<tseng> wasabi_: 2.6.14_rcX will go in
<madsen> tseng: Uh, I think you lost me there...
<wasabi_> tseng, okay, awesome... just don't know the timeframe?
<tseng> wasabi_: nope, not my baby
<wasabi_> I wonder only because I'm packaging a kernel module that requires > .13
<tseng> wasabi_: sorry
<wasabi_> K.
<tseng> madsen: well, when debugging a problem, you normally try to elimante potential causes of the problem one at a time until it works..
<tseng> madsen: you've only proposed one so far
<madsen> tseng: Well, it works fine on breezy installed from CD - as you know.
<tseng> well then
<madsen> tseng: But I can't install from cd because I have no cds...
<tseng> can you please try to track down the problem factor between the cd and the chroot
<tseng> because i have mono in a chroot also
<tseng> it works.
<madsen> tseng: I've been trying to do exactly that for 3 days...
<madsen> tseng: I debootstrapped hda3, chrooted to it and installed linux-686 and ubuntu-desktop, booted and it seemed to work. Then I installed banshee and encountered these problems...
<tseng> im at a loss pending another clue, both methods work for me
<madsen> tseng: I've tracked the problem to having to do with mono, since even "hello world" in c# is acting weird...
<slomo> what does hello world do?
<slomo> same problem?
<madsen> it echo'es "hello world" but doesn't exit...
<madsen> same goes when I compile hello world with mcs.
<slomo> what hello world? can you paste the code somehwere?
<ajmitch> (not in this channel)
<madsen> slomo: Sure
<ajmitch> pastebin again, please :)
<madsen> http://rafb.net/paste/results/Yvwqmd70.html
* tseng notes that ajmitch also uses extensive chrooting of mono crack
<madsen> ajmitch: I know. :) I'm not a newb. :)
<tseng> from bootstrap
<slomo> madsen: ok, nothing wrong with it ;) hmm
<madsen> Woh!
<madsen> Just did an strace on the execution of hello world...
<madsen> A whole lot of nanosleep there...
<tseng> stracing mono is useless
<madsen> tseng: Apparently... Unless it has to do with missing files.
<tseng> as i said those files missing is non-critical
<madsen> tseng: I know, but _sometimes_ they're not. :)
<Kamion> elmo: please sync os-prober, when you have time out from the meeting
<madsen> I'm really, really confused here - I hope you see why.
<tseng> yes, you've managed to confuse me
<slomo> same here
<madsen> tseng: lol! Sorry about that.
<madsen> slomo: --^
<madsen> I've also tried with a brand new user - same problems.
<slomo> madsen: hm, a guess... try apt-get --reinstall install mono-classlib-1.0
<slomo> madsen: we fixed that already but maybe you got that bug...
<slomo> no idea
<madsen> slomo: I did that 12 hours ago...
<slomo> hm
<madsen> slomo: Could it be that the fix could in some way have _not_ reached the mirrors?
<slomo> it has
<madsen> Oh wait, I'm using archive.ubuntu.com...
<madsen> Hmm, interesting... beagled is able to get to the main loop before it dies with the same error as the others.
<slomo> ok...
<madsen> At least it says to in the log.
<slomo> madsen: http://slomosnail.de/~slomo/test.exe
<slomo> madsen: does this show an empty window? or does it crash before?
<tseng> hm yes, gtk# bug
<tseng> (possibly)
<madsen> slomo: It shows an empty window.
<slomo> hum
<madsen> slomo: and hangs when I close it (like hello world).
<slomo> yes, that's normal ;) i was too lazy
<slomo> but hello world shouldn't hang
<slomo> tseng: any other ideas?
<tseng> no =/
<tseng> "install normally"
<tseng> it would be great to have an error to go by
<madsen> tseng: Not an option atm. I don't have any cd's - only an iso image a friend messed up and burned (as a file) on a cd.
<slomo> madsen: reget that file and run it... what does happen?
<madsen> slomo: nothing, it just hangs...
<slomo> wtf
<tseng> no window now?
<slomo> tseng: just a empty writeline
<madsen> Nope, nothing.
<tseng> oh
<slomo> madsen: and this one?
<madsen> slomo: still nothing
<slomo> madsen: but it exits?
<madsen> slomo: nope
<slomo> madsen: this one?
<tseng> starting to sound like funky jit?
<madsen> slomo: Arg, wait a sec, I messed up... I kept wgetting them, but not deleting the old... :( :( :(
* madsen slaps himself.
<tseng> since the non-exiting gtk# bit shows something
<slomo> ok, test all you got ;)
<madsen> slomo: The last one exits, but I don't know about the previous one - I deleted it. :(
<slomo> ok, test this one
<madsen> slomo: Not exiting.
<slomo> this one?
<madsen> slomo: exits
<slomo> ok
<madsen> slomo: Getting somewhere?
<slomo> seems like your mono keeps some threads around
<slomo> which shouldn't be there
<slomo> hmm
<madsen> Hmm indeed...
<madsen> Should I try a non-breezy mono perhaps - or will that give too many problems with libs and stuff?
<slomo> hm, you could try mono 1.1.9 from debian unstable
<madsen> slomo: Just the one package or the whole shabang?
<madsen> slomo: I'll try as little as possible first... mono, mono-common and mono-jit...
<slomo> madsen: and mono-classlib-1.0
<madsen> slomo: Oh yeah, that too. :)
* tseng wonders why this is a good idea
<slomo> tseng: why is it a bad idea?
<tseng> because his system will end up even further off the mark
<slomo> he can reinstall the old breezy versions later if it doesn't work
<tseng> and it wont tell us very much
<tseng> ( was reinstalling the key alone? was it one of the many changes between 1.1.8 and 1.1.9.x? is it ubuntu vs debian bug? )
<tseng> not to discourage, just wondering
<madsen> tseng: Indeed. :( But I'm mystified to the point that I'm starting to think "just work dammit!"... I've spent the last 3 days trying to figure this out.
<slomo> tseng: but when it works (which i doubt) we have a direction where to look at...
<slomo> and he tried to reinstall before... didn't help
<tseng> works for me.
<madsen> tseng: Once I actually get my breezy cds I'll of course try those - no matter if the debian packages work or not.
<tseng> madsen: great :) i hope you have good luck with those
<madsen> tseng: Me too - otherwise I'll be ubuntu-scared for the rest of my life... :-p
<madsen> K, got the debian packages - now for the install, which will probable complain a lot...
<tseng> hm the packages arent far apart
<madsen> Woh! No complains at all! :)
<madsen> And now I'm getting a new error with banshee, but 'beagle-settings' work! :) :)
<slomo> what error with banshee?
<slomo> and does monodoc for example work?
<madsen> Unhandled Exception: DBus.DBusException: Failed to connect to socket /tmp/dbus-MofjP4qFhA: Connection refused
<slomo> ugly dbus
<madsen> slomo: I haven't installed monodoc yet.
<madsen> slomo: Indeed.
<slomo> logout and login again... or even reboot ;)
<madsen> slomo: Yeah, I'll just configure beagle and take a moment to be happy that _something_ actually works. :)
<madsen> Ok, installing monodoc - it'll take quite a while, I'm on a 256k connection. :(
<madsen> Ok, so with a minimal number of mono packages from debian unstable, it seems to work ... better at least... :)
<slomo> better?
<slomo> what works better and what doesn't work ;)
<madsen> slomo: Well, I haven't tested banshee and monodoc yet. :)
<madsen> slomo: I just didn't want to be too bold. ;)
<madsen> In a minute I can tell you if monodoc works.
<madsen> slomo: monodoc works! :D
<slomo> hmmm
<madsen> Gotta log out and back in to test banshee... Brb!
<slomo> wait
<slomo> are you on x86 or amd64?
<ajmitch> slomo: he said x86 earlier
<slomo> ok
<slomo> hmm, maybe nptl problems... debian doesn't use it for !amd64
<madsen> Yup, x86
<madsen> Damn, gnome still takes 10 minutes to just log me in...
<Kinnison> yum
<madsen> slomo: nptl?
<slomo> madsen: google ;) native posix thread library
<madsen> slomo: Oh
<slomo> hmm, we could test it...
<slomo> wait
<madsen> slomo: mind if I do a reboot? Dbus is still acting up. :-/
<slomo> no... just come back ;)
<madsen> slomo: I will stay here all the time. :) (screen + irssi) ;)~
<madsen> Brb!
<slomo> ok
<madsen> back!
<slomo> ok, wait some minutes please
<madsen> K, I'm not in a hurry. :)
* madsen will go get some cigarettes then.
* mpt is momentarily confused by a reference to Max Zimmerman
<ogra> a secret brother ? 
<mpt> maybe
<mpt> like Brad Shuttleworth
<ogra> heh
<ogra> he's not this secret ...
<spayne> night all
<ogra> mpt, did you know that bob dylans real last name is also zimmerman *and* he also plays guitar ... you'll never know the secrets of mdz ;)
<madsen> Hmm, still getting dbus errors...
<slomo> hmm
<ogra> s/secrets/secret relations/
<slomo> madsen: please try the relevant packages from http://slomosnail.de/~slomo/mono/
<slomo> madsen: is the problem coming back?
<madsen> slomo: K!
<ivoks> enjoy at UBZ!
<madsen> slomo: I'll grab them right away.
<slomo> madsen: and i'll go to bed now... please report here anyway :) i'll read it tomorrow... good night everybody :)
<madsen> slomo: K! Sleep tight - and thanks for all the help! :)
<madsen> slomo: Yes, the problem is back... :-/
<slomo> fine... what kernel are you running?
<slomo> (still here =) )
<madsen> 2.6.12-9-686
<slomo> so breezy kernel... weird
<slomo> i'll think about it and tell you tomorrow :)
* slomo disappears
<madsen> slomo: hehe. Sleep tight! :)
<dholbach> night guys
<AndyFitz> here's the newest revision of the ubuntu-title font for derivative logos...  http://brisgeek.com/fonts/ubuntu-title.otf     source: http://brisgeek.com/fonts/ubuntu-title.sfd
<AndyFitz> ogra,  can we replace the package in universe ? :) 
* ajmitch returns
<bddebian> Hello
<ajmitch> hello bddebian 
<bddebian> Heya ajmitch 
<ajmitch> how are you?
<bddebian> Busy :-(  You?
<ajmitch> busier
<bddebian> Touche
<ajmitch> got a todo list a mile long before friday
<bddebian> Bah, mine is RL work :'-(
* ajmitch also
<bddebian> Oh :-)
<fabbione> cya in .ca
* fabbione &
<ajmitch> bye fabbione 
<lamont-away> daniels: libxaw hates me...  /usr/bin/ld: .libs/libXaw6.la-43.o(.text.1+0x3e8f0): cannot reach 00000038_XtSetTypeConverter+0, recompile with -ffunction-sections
* daniels shrugs.
<daniels> fix your toolchain?
<daniels> or do I really need to put -ffunction-sections in every lib I have for hppa?
<daniels> err
<daniels> we have libdirectfb-dev in main?
<lamont-away> daniels: so far it's just libxaw and boost, it appears.
<infinity> boost is the root of much, if not all, evil.
<lamont-away> it's a toolchain issue with a non-trivial fix (as in, I'm not sure they understand the best way to make it go away...)
<daniels> you can upload to fix it if it's really bothering you; my machine is slammed with other things (primarily mesa)
<lamont-away> infinity: women are the root of all evil.  boost must just be most.
<lamont-away> daniels: ok.  I'll probably upload something that adds -ffunction-sections on hppa (and mips, I gather... not that ubuntu cares...)
<daniels> lamont-away: okay
<lamont-away> you need a diff when I get ther?
* lamont-away will file bugs and such...
<infinity> lamont-away : May as well do the Debian arches too, in case gravity decides to sync from our packaging.
<lamont-away> yeah
<daniels> gravity is syncing from our packaging
<daniels> lamont-away: diff will be useful but not essential
<minghua> infinity: are you going to UBZ?
<lamont-away> daniels: I'll stick it in the bug, I expect.
<infinity> minghua : Yup.
<daniels> lamont-away: thanks
<minghua> infinity: I was thinking of writing something up about SCIM support on wiki
<minghua> infinity: so if I do write it, you are going to be there selling it/getting feedback/etc.?
<infinity> minghua : Well, I believe I'm leading a BOF about input methods, so anything you have to add would be nice, ezpecially if you can't be there in person.
<minghua> infinity: cool, I'll definitely write up a page on wiki then
<minghua> infinity: I would like to go, but I don't have vacations
<infinity> minghua : Thanks.  Mail me at adconrad@ubuntu.com with a pointer to it when you're done. :)
<minghua> infinity: sure
<minghua> infinity: where should I put it?  does DapperGoals sound a good place?
<infinity> Hrm.
<minghua> or do you have a page for your BOF?
<lamont-away> mdz: any chance of getting hppa/sparc into bz's architecture list?
<infinity> minghua ; There's an InputMethods page... That's not the BOF page, though.
<minghua> infinity: it's not going to be a user guide for scim, I don't have time for that
<infinity> minghua : Oh, but the BOF links to that page currently.
<minghua> infinity: it's just going to be "what does scim provide, what does debian currently have, and what I/we plan to do in additional to debian" type of thing
<infinity> minghua : Look at InputMethods, and if you have stuff to add to that, just make your own section and babble in it.
<infinity> minghua : I'll write a formal spec at UBZ, but I can't be bothered starting one now.
<minghua> infinity: all right, I'll put something either in or under InputMethods
<lamont-away> daniels: 18483, assigned to me
<luis__> is there a dapper weather report?
<luis__> like, 'stormy- hold off on updates', or 'clear skies- update now', or...?
<infinity> ...
<infinity> How about "we just uploaded and built 2000 random source packages, and we have no clue if any of it works"
<infinity> Does that help?
<bddebian> Heh
<luis__> well, yes, that helps me personally ;) but I was wondering if there were a more public news-y source that mentioned those kinds of things, that could be monitored instead of poking the channel
<lamont-away> luis__: the first month or two tend to be fraught with peril.
<luis__> (mozilla used to do such a thing for HEAD, but gave up because it was fairly resource intensive for them)
<mdz> lamont-away: I think that's a twiddle-in-the-db sort of operation
<mdz> lamont-away: it should appear in malone fairly soon though
<lamont-away> luis__: it's a development release... anything before UVF is something that developers want to install on a test box long before they put it on any machine they care about, and users really don't want ot mess with..
* bddebian wonders if that is like twiddle-dee-dee
<luis__> lamont-away: I'm not a total newb, thanks ;)
<infinity> luis__ : Subscribe to dapper-changes and ubuntu-changes-auto if you want to see what's going in on any given day.
<infinity> luis__ : If you had done that two days ago, your INBOX would be flooded right now.
* lamont-away takes one 'dee' from bddebian 
<luis__> <nod>
* luis__ really wants a new mono, but fears the rest of the associated pain
<lamont-away> infinity: I only have 1MB of dapper-changes... hardly anything. :-)
<lamont-away> breezy finished out at 59MB
<lamont-away> and hoary only had 21MB... that's a scary trend.
<luis__> 40MB of that being X changes ;)
<infinity> lamont-away : Well, yes, the people who whined to me about -changes got an earful about builg log mail. :)
* lamont-away blames daniels and xorg
<wasabi> Hmm. Isn't there some simple daemon tool to make init scripts that just launch and monitor simple commands?
<lamont-away> infinity: yea, verily
<lamont-away> wasabi: start-stop-daemon
<lamont-away> :-)
<wasabi> That will watch?
<infinity> No.
<wasabi> I need to monitor for death.
<lamont-away> no
<infinity> You want daemon-tools, but without the djb crack associated with it.
<infinity> Someone must have NIHd it by now.
<infinity> wasabi : runit, perhaps?
<wasabi> Hmm. Cool.
<sfvt_> wasabi, see monit: http://www.tildeslash.com/monit/
<infinity> Another daemontools-alike...
<infinity> Though, it seems a bit more..bloated.
<daniels> ugh, daemontools
<infinity> The conecept doesn't irk me nearly as much as the implementation.
<daniels> well, the usual djb NIH
<daniels> 'unix? what's that?'
<infinity> That fact that runit does daemontools-like things, but in a SysV init system makes it pretty attractive.
<daniels> see, in a sysv system, makes it far better already.  plus its author presumably isn't as much of a useless tool.
<infinity> I'll admit to never having installed runit, though, it just looks neat on paper. :)
<wasabi> Trying to make a dirt easy init process for vblade (AoE)
<daniels> hm
<daniels> what's this new multi-contributor changelog format we're all supposed to be using or something?
<infinity> dch creates it automagically if it detects a need.
<daniels> oh, so it does.  neat.
<infinity> I, personally, detest the format.  But whatever. :)
<daniels> i thought it was meant to be a ' -- Foo Bar <baz@quux.tld>  [date] ' for everyone
<infinity> That would break the changelog format in horrible ways.
<infinity> This is non-intrusive and works with older parsers.
<minghua> infinity: just for curiosity, what is the format you want?
<infinity> minghua : The one I use. :)
<infinity>  * Contributor One <contrib@one.com>
<infinity>    - Changed stuff
<infinity>  * Contributor Two <contrib@two.com>
<infinity>    - Changed other stuff
<minghua> I see
<infinity> But, to each their own.
<infinity> It's irritating that the devscripts format removes the email address for all but the uploader.
<bob2> isn't that basically how everyone has done it in Debian for a thousand years?
<infinity> Makes it harder to hunt down the person responsible for change Foo.
<bddebian> perfect :-)
<minghua> maybe the devscripts maintainer can be persuade to use [Contributor one <contrib@one.com>]  in the current format?
<infinity> Yeah, probably, but I've never bothered to file a bug (or change devscripts in Ubuntu to be gratuitously different), because I just don't care that much. :)
* infinity decides it's time to go shopping for UBZ supplies.
<bob2> booze?
<infinity> No, I'll get that in Canada. :)
<infinity> I need a new backpack, though.
<infinity> And a haircut.
<daniels> mullet?
<infinity> I figure Mark's shallow enough that if I want to talk about money, I best be looking.. Well.. Dapper.
<infinity> La la la.
* infinity hopes he can take a joke. :)
<HrdwrBoB> mullet... business in front, party out back!
<bddebian> Uhm
<bob2> loooooong at the back
<bob2> but short at the sides
<infinity> HrdwrBoB : I think a reverse mullet would be more fun.
<sabdfl> infinity: hmmm?
<bddebian> Uh oh
<infinity> So much for the "make fun of the boss while he's asleep" scenario. :)
<bddebian> heh
<sabdfl> infinity: i never really sleep, you know
<infinity> Join the club.
<infinity> Anyhow, I better go get my head blinged, now that I've made a big deal of it.
<daniels> it'd better be a mullet, or we'll all be very disappointed.
<daniels> bonus points if you go the westie variant, and shave off everything but a ratty fringe and the back mullety bit
<bob2> daniels: don't forget to take pictures
<infinity> I seriously wish my hair was long enough to do a reverse mullet.
<infinity> Just for a day
<infinity> sabdfl : If I get a really fantastic haircut with an Ubuntu logo shaved in it, can I talk you into buying hppa buildds for the DC? :0
<bddebian> heh
<daniels> ubuntu on top, kubuntu and edubuntu on the sides
<daniels> and buntu or something on the back
<infinity> With an as-yet-undetermined server logo tattooed on my forehead?
<daniels> the server logo has to actually be 2U big, on your head
<daniels> none of this miniaturisation crap
<infinity> That could be tough.
<daniels> (to which the obvious rejoinder is, 'well, you do have a big head.')
<sabdfl> infinity: if you can get LAMONT to get a really fantastic haircut...
<infinity> I don't think that can be done.
<infinity> I could give him one in his sleep, though.
<daniels> maybe we could dreadlock bob2's hair into the ubuntu logo
<daniels> that would be phat
<lamont-away> sabdfl: depends on how permanent it is...
<infinity> I've never had a permanent haircut...
<infinity> We could scalp you, I suppose.
<lamont-away> heh
<daniels> 'surprise! you've got no head!'
<daniels> that's semi-permanent, yes
<lamont-away> hrm... I think my hair is long enough to do a tropical-fish dew for the day...
<dilinger> argh
* lamont-away hands dilinger a pirate keyboary
<lamont-away> d
<dilinger>  files list file for package `gnome-applets-data' contains empty filename
<dilinger> Errors were encountered while processing:
<dilinger>  /var/cache/apt/archives/gnome-applets-data_2.12.1-0ubuntu1_all.deb
<dilinger> this machine's hung twice during this dist-upgrade
<lamont-away> dilinger: way cool.
<dilinger> and now it looks like ext3 is going to stage a revolt :/
<daniels> i wonder if anyone would notice if I added XK_yarr to keysymdef.h, rebuilt libx11 against it, and changed the default keymap to 'pirate' one day
<daniels> every key -> skull and crossbones
<lamont-away> sabdfl: although it would be kinda cool to run ubuntu-server on hp's superdome
<sabdfl> lamont-away: in the hair department, i'm learning that nothing is permanent
<lamont> sabdfl: pulling it out does not count as 'balding'. :-)
* lamont considers his hairline, shuts up.
<mdz> that ship sailed long ago for me
<dilinger> i can't even dpkg --purge --force-all gnome-applets-data
<dilinger> hrmph.
<daniels> i still retain my beautiful flowing locks
<luis__> thats because you're, like, 12
<luis__> :)
<daniels> easy, or I'll break your hip
<dilinger> hey, neat.  i dunno wtf this is in /var/lib/dpkg/info/gnome-applets-data.list, but it's definitely not the package's file list
<infinity> Heh.
<infinity> Is it binary? :)
<sabdfl> lamont: if you can get them donated and shipped, we will love them and house them and tend to them and even build on them
<dilinger> no, text.  it looks like part of a Packages file, and.. something else mixed in.
<infinity> lamont : Start the shaving process.  He's unconvinced.
<daniels> sabdfl: as opposed to, say, love them and house them and tend to them and just cat /proc/cpuinfo on them for kicks every now and again
<sabdfl> jbailey: around?
<lamont> sabdfl: I expect I can scrounge up something fat to ship
<dilinger> terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::logic_error'
<dilinger>   what():  basic_string::_S_construct NULL not valid
<sabdfl> lamont: DOIT
<lamont> I assume '4' is the magic number?
<sabdfl> 4... u?
<sabdfl> 4.... processors?
<lamont> 4 machines
<sabdfl> 4.... me?
<daniels> jbailey: how much convincing would it take for you to turn your very nice long hair (and it is very nice) into a huge rat tail?
<infinity> lamont : Oh, if you can, then ship to me, too.
* dilinger wills keybuk onto irc
<lamont> infinity: I expect I probably can... it's more a scrounging exercise....
<lamont> sabdfl: I'll shoot for something in the 2U range, and at least 2 of them.
<lamont> probably don't really need a porter-machine for hppa
<infinity> lamont : Multi-core?
<lamont> infinity: could be 2-way, I expect
<sabdfl> lamont: that will likely do. tradition has for 1 porting and 3 buildd, but you would know what you need
<infinity> lamont : 8900s, or are they too shiny to free up?
<mdz> sabdfl: jbailey turned in about 45m ago
<sabdfl> what would really be nice is enough remote management for you / infinity to test the installer against them when they are not building
<sabdfl> sensible man
<sabdfl> and since we are now on his timezone, i think i might do the same
<mdz> sleep is almost a foregone conclusion with an 0645 pickup
<infinity> sabdfl : That would be rather nice if we could get remote console access to the current machines, yes.
<sabdfl> mdz: spec bits charging for production at an alarming rate, take a squizz in 20
<sabdfl> infinity: help iwj / mdz / elmo spec automated install testing at ubz
<mdz> sabdfl: you haven't slept?
<sabdfl> mdz: no. drank a little though
<mdz> sabdfl: sometimes that counts
<daniels> near enough's good enough
<sabdfl> daniels: so, you're suggesting up not move to dapper before heading for bed, then?
<mdz> sabdfl: launchpad told me it was going down for maintenance in 7 minutes, about an hour ago
<sabdfl> mdz: it came up. going back down. will come back up. then take a squizz.
<daniels> sabdfl: x is still half-half, because some packages are binary-NEW
<mdz> squizz standing by
<lamont> sabdfl: we'll eventually get all 4...
<mdz> almost finished packing
<daniels> sabdfl: but the packages themselves work fine (the same packages that upgraded okay for everyone else, same packages I've been running for a few days), so
<lamont> I'll probably wind up shipping one, getting it happy, and then shipping the one that is the current buildd for hppa/ubuntu
<lamont> then comes the hard scrounging
<lamont> as in actually finding someone who's willing to pony up a little cash for my pet project.
<sabdfl> lamont: that's cool. scrounging means a bit of diversity, which is actually nice
<daniels> sabdfl: it's generally solid, though
<sabdfl> daniels: ok, will brave the drake at ubz
<daniels> sabdfl: being able to beat the person responsible for breakage usually makes for good upgrading
<infinity> Amen to that.
<mdz> queue/new is bulging
<sabdfl> daniels: it's not technically in your contract, but i'll hold you to it. or it to you.
<sabdfl> elmo: ?
<sabdfl> slacker
<infinity> mdz : Yeah, I've noticed. :)
<daniels> sabdfl: what're you talking about? there's a whole section about optional bonuses, right there.
<sabdfl> binus whooopin'?
<infinity> I'm not sure that means that your employer can optionally assign himself the bonus of beating the tar out of you.
<infinity> But an interesting interpretation.
<daniels> infinity: not an interpretation I'm sure I like
<daniels> sabdfl: that's not *quite* what I had in mind ...
<sabdfl> infinity: you haven't ever been to an ubuntu dev summit in a foreign timezone, haveya?
<infinity> sabdfl : And after this one, I still won't have, since I htink I've been living in Canadian timezones ever since I moved to Australia.
<daniels> yeah.  oxford wasn't a foreign tz for me, since by then I had no home tz.
<daniels> (slept two random two-hour hits most days, at totally random times.)
<mdz> daniels: the only binary-new obviously-X package I see is xserver-kdrive
* lamont reuploads, this time to dapper instead of breezy... sigh
<daniels> mdz: hm, xdmx-utils (xorg-server) should be NEW
<wasabi> I thought X was moving out of /usr/X11R6
<infinity> mdz : Scratch that, daniel has some FTBFSs to deal with. :)
<lamont> sabdfl: I'm trying to remember - does this mean I have to shave my head, or not?
<infinity> lamont : It can't hurt.
<lamont> infinity: yes it can.
<lamont> there's this scar, you see..
<infinity> Even better.
<infinity> Dress it up.
<lamont> it seems that the Japanese have really short doors.
<sabdfl> lamont: no. just send 'em and we'll tend 'em
<sabdfl> night now. really.
<lamont> g'night
<infinity> mdz : readline-common needs to be promoted to main.
<infinity> mdz : New libreadline5 depends on it.
<infinity> mdz : We'll be hitching up on a fair few builds until that migrates.
<mdz> infinity: looks like elmo updated teri for dapper, so I'll move it
<infinity> Sweet, thanks.
<mdz> infinity: is gcc unbroken?
<mdz> looks like jamesh and I will be on the same flight
<mdz> infinity: you, too, but on a different day
<daniels> i'm flying through frigging honolulu
<daniels> since edward somehow managed to book me on a direct syd->yvr flight that no longer exists originally
<daniels> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4376548.stm
<daniels> Los Angeles police sparked a surprising sight when they led away real-life versions of cuddly Sesame Street Muppet Elmo and cartoon hero Mr Incredible.
* dilinger blinks
<dilinger> "They jumped out of their cars with guns drawn," said Mr Harper, who says he makes up to $400 a day in tips.
<dilinger> i'm in the wrong business
<HrdwrBoB> damn
<daniels> 80k/yr, presumably tax-free, isn't too bad
* ajmitch wouldn't mind
<HrdwrBoB> that's a good point, how on earth does the US tax all those tips?
<minghua> I read (on my tax forms) you are supposed to report the amount yourself
<HrdwrBoB> heh, I'm sure that goes very well
<dilinger> probably the same way the US taxes other forms of income that aren't through some company; the honor system
* daniels sighs at mesa.
<pef> hello
<infinity> mdz : gcc will remain broken until it gets synced from sid.
<mdke> question: are the backports repositories going to be created on release for dapper, or some time after? If the latter, we need to correct our documentation...
* daniels battles Mesa, emerges bloodied and victorious.
<dholbach> good morning
<Treenaks> mr holbach! :)
<ajmitch> hello dholbach 
<dholbach> hey Treenaks, ajmitch :)
<spayne> mornin' all
<mdke> can anyone answer my backports question, above?
<spayne> mdke: what's the question? sorry - just joined
<sivang> GOod morning all
* rob^ looks in
<mdke> spayne,  are the backports repositories going to be created on release for dapper, or some time after?
<dholbach> ubuntu-backports@ should know
<spayne> hey dholbach
<spayne> mdke: i think they start as soon as packages that are in Dapper and want to be backported
<spayne> launchpad is down - is that known?
<mdke> dholbach, thanks
<spayne> it's up now :)
<mdke> spayne, pretty strange to have the archive in the default sources.list but not even create the archive
<mdke> dholbach, is that @lists?
<dholbach> yep
<mdke> thanks
<spayne> mdke: i know but it was part of the deal when backports become offical IIRC
<spayne> sigh - still not on the Members list ;)
<mdke> spayne, you don't lose anything by not being on there
<spayne> mdke: thanks
<mdke> if it's blocking your work you should definitely contact someone about it
<spayne> mdke: without that, is there any proof i'm a member :)
<ajmitch> spayne: does it matter if you haven't been added within a few hours?
<spayne> ajmitch: no no, not at all
<mdke> spayne, who do you need to prove it to?
<spayne> mdke: no one
<mdke> oh
* spayne thinks this conv. should stop here
* spayne apologises for starting it
<spayne> jdub: ping
<freeflying> /usr/include/c++/4.0.2/bits/stl_vector.h: In function int main(int, char**):
<freeflying> /usr/include/c++/4.0.2/bits/stl_vector.h:495: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault
<freeflying> Please submit a full bug report,
<freeflying> with preprocessed source if appropriate.
<freeflying> See <URL:http://gcc.gnu.org/bugs.html> for instructions.
<freeflying> For Debian GNU/Linux specific bug reporting instructions,
<freeflying> see <URL:file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-4.0/README.Bugs>.
<infinity> freeflying : Pasting in an IRC channel doesn't count as submitting a bug report.
<freeflying> It's seems there sre errors of my RAM
<hunger> freeflying: Use memtest86 for a couple opf hours to make sure.
<freeflying> when I use gentoo to emerge something big like Xorg ,my gcc will crach 
<infinity> Are you overclocking your front side bus?
<infinity> Or just plain overheating in any way?
<infinity> That'll make GCC segv like nobody's business.
<freeflying> haven't overclock anything
<freeflying> memtest is nightmare
<slomo> elmo: please sync cli-common from debian unstable... ubuntu changes can be dropped
<zyga> morning
<dholbach> hi zyga, hey koke
<sivang> hi dholbach !
<dholbach> hi sivan
<zyga> last day to get specs online
<zyga> dholbach: should my spec be created in launchpad or in the wiki?
<infinity> Create the spec in the wiki, then register it in launchpad.
<infinity> (launchpad will ask you for the URL of the wiki page)
<zyga> ah, okay
* zyga goes to check launchpad
<sivang> zyga: if you want it to get approved, you can "Request feedback" from someone specific
<ajmitch> sivang: approval would come during/after UBZ, I'd think?
<zyga> sivang: how do I do that?
<sivang> ajmitch: approval = approving if the BOF will get discussed, AFAICT
<sivang> ajmitch: e.g., there are many suggested ideas - we couldn't possibly discuss all of them in the tight schedule, or could we? :)
<sivang> zyga: after you registered your spec in lp,notice the right menu has "Request feedback" item
<ajmitch> "The person responsible for approving the specification, and for reviewing the code when it's ready to be landed."
<zyga> ah, okay I'm still copying the specs to the wiki from gedit, it'll take a while
<infinity> sivang : no, from my phone discussion with mdz and sabdfl, it looks like the "approver" is the person assigned to go over the spec after it's drafter ad make sure it's sane.  Which comes after the BOF.
<zyga> WaterSevenUb: morning :-)
<infinity> s/drafter/drafted/
<sivang> infinity: ah, sorry for the mis guidance then - thanks for correcting me
<WaterSevenUb> zyga, mooorning :)
<sivang> zyga: then, what infinity said :) and you probably don't need to use that then
<zyga> where is pitti/
<ajmitch> infinity: ie, the people to convince and/or bribe?
<dholbach> zyga: travelling
<zyga> does anoyne know what happens to translations of universe packages
<zyga> they are not rolled out as language packs
<zyga> are they 'synced' with the package only at release time?
<infinity> ajmitch : That's one way of looking at it.  I prefer to look at it as "the people who will shoot down the crackpot stuff, thus lessening my workload, post-UBZ", but YMMV. :)
<infinity> zyga : universe packages don't get translations stripped.
<infinity> zyga : They stay in the package.
<ajmitch> infinity: a reasonable description also :)
<infinity> We were severely lacking in crackpot-shooting-down with UDU, so ended up with a huge stack of randomly-assigned specs that didn't seem to go anywhere or be useful enough to implement anything with.
<zyga> infinity: so i18n 'update' for universe happens only at release
<zyga> righT?
<infinity> Right.
<infinity> Langpacks aren't done for universe because they'd be HUGE.
<zyga> great
<zyga> infinity: thanks I'm working on fixing that in general :-)
<infinity> In theory, we could do post-release universe langpacks that only contained updates, but not the original translations.  Even those would get big fairly quickly, though.
<WaterSevenUb> infinity, how big are we talking here?:)
<infinity> But, yeah.  Look at the size of the main langpacks.  Look at the number of packages in universe versus main.  Do math.
<zyga> langpacks are a compromise
<infinity> Heck, even the main ones were big enough that we split them (ingo base, gnome, and kde)
<zyga> I want to scrapt them and do the right thing
<zyga> s/scrapt/scrap/
<infinity> What's the "right thing"?
<infinity> Doing out-of-band updates that bypass dpkg seems evil on many levels.
<Riddell> infinity: the split is mostly to stop unnecessary files on ubuntu for kubuntu and vice-verse
<zyga> infinity: just read my spec in an hour ;-)
<zyga> infinity: apt is used as a vector
<zyga> infinity: anyway --- just wait :-)
<infinity> Riddell : Yes, where you say "unnecessary files", I say "size"... Tomato, tomahto.
<zyga> I'm effectively saying the same things in two windows ;-)
<infinity> Riddell : We wouldn't care about "unnecessary files" if they were tiny and insignificant.  But they're not.
<infinity> (Heck, if translations were tiny and insignificant, we wouldn't strip them in the first place)
<ajmitch> hi pitti 
<pitti> Hi everybody
<infinity> zyga : Note that langpack translations get installed to a different search path than translations in the packages themselves, so there's no overlap issues if we were to provide universe langpack updates to override/augment the shipped translations.  It's just the size issue that's worth looking at.
<infinity> Hey pitti. :)
<pitti> Hi infinity - greetings from the London office
<infinity> pitti : dpkg-deb diversion hack is a success.
<zyga> infinity: I know :-)
<zyga> pitti: morning :-)
<pitti> infinity: just read your reply to Scott, nice
<pitti> Hi zyga
<zyga> pitti: can I assign you to my specs?
<Keybuk> infinity: I just meant that the "dpkg-deb --extract" codepath isn't used when unpacking debs
<Keybuk> (which most people think it is)
<Keybuk> it still does use dpkg-deb to actually pull the deb apart into the two tarfiles
<sabdfl> mdz: ping
<infinity> Keybuk : Yes.  I noticed. :)
<infinity> Keybuk : I've also decided that dpkg-diverting dpkg-deb is about the dumbest idea ever.  So I went ahead and did it anyway.  Works great.
<Keybuk> :D
<pitti> zyga: my time is a bit limited, so I probably can't be the assignee of all specs
<pitti> zyga: but I'll happily subscribe to them
<pitti> zyga: I can also draft them if necessary, that's not a problem
<pitti> zyga: but I might not be able to code them
<zyga> pitti: I'm for the coding part
<zyga> pitti: but a review is nice
<pitti> zyga: works for me
<Diziet> tructions to create your account:
<Diziet>    https://launchpad.net/token/23TZx0W264NkP9rn5QnQ
<Diziet> The Launchpad is a web portal for open source developers that
<Diziet> includes easy web based translation and bug management. We'll
<Diziet> be adding new features to The Launchpad based on your
<Diziet> suggestions, so feel free to contact us on #launchpad on
<Diziet> irc.freenode.net with ideas. Malone and Rosetta are just
<Diziet> the tip of the iceberg ;-)
<Diziet> Thank you!
<Diziet> Oops, wrong window!
<spayne> who runs The Fridge?
<slomo> spayne: jdub afaik
<spayne> slomo: i think he is away, is he not?
<slomo> no idea
<spayne> for 16 hours anyway :)
<mdke> Znarl, got a free 60 secs?
<mdke> spayne, you can contact the fridge at fridge-devel@u.c
<zakame> hi all
<jsgotangco> hi
* dholbach -> lunch & shopping some bits for .ca
<zakame> where can I get a list of all packages shipped in the Breezy CD?
<Nafallo> zakame: http://releases.ubuntu.com/5.10/*.list
<zakame> Nafallo: ah, thanks :D
<mdke> who would be a good person to ask to review a spec for moving documentation out of the wiki?
<mdke> i want a few more eyeballs on it, if poss.
<Lathiat> well, i'll look
<Lathiat> url?
<jsgotangco> move?
<Lathiat> isnt that what help.ubuntu.com is for?
<Lathiat> and also
<Lathiat> if a wiki isn't for documentation
<Lathiat> wtf is it for/ :)
<jsgotangco> yeah
<bob2> Lathiat: duh, that's what the forums are for
<mdke> Lathiat, the ubuntu wiki is used for specs, documentation, community, locoteams, and other development tools
<Simira> yes, that's nice
<mdke> the spec is at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/better-wiki-docs
<bob2> wikis will weed out useful stuff like how to make the nvidia driver go faster by selecting the PCI ID
<jsgotangco> Seveas: awesome email...traffic in the making....
<Simira> everything in one place!
<bob2> or how none of the k8 kernels work on amd64s
<mdke> there are several disadvantages of the "all in one place" theory
* Simira likes it
<mdke> as detailed in the spec. Anyhow, the more eyes on the spec, the better
<Lathiat> bob2: nah, you need to recompile xorg with -ffast-math
* jsgotangco didn't like the edubuntu/ubuntu wiki merge
<zakame> jsgotangco: yeah, reminded me to join #edubuntu :D
<Lathiat> selecting the pci id just doesnt do enough
<Lathiat> mdke: so i dont think it shoudl so much be a "better wiki" as such the help.ubuntu.com site
<Lathiat> perhaps in some kind of "unofficial" area
<bob2> erk, designing everything through specs is dangerous
<Lathiat> and it *really* needs to be organised better
<mdke> Lathiat, sorry, I don't understand that
<Lathiat> mdke: it should be on help.ubuntu.com, but probably in some kind of "Unofficial User Suggestions" area
<Lathiat> and perhaps promoted by someone intelligent to some "better" area
<Nafallo> bob2: ehm, none of the k8-kernels work?
<mdke> Lathiat, you are suggesting forking to two documentation wikis? that would be pretty crazy
<bob2> Nafallo: according to some delightful forum posts
<mdke> anyhow, OT, let's go to #-doc
<Lathiat> mdke: no, im suggesting putting it in a subsection
<Lathiat> mdke: /Unofficial/Blah, or whatever
<Lathiat> ok
<Nafallo> bob2: wow. must be lusers :-).
<bob2> letting random clueless people put documention up is a danger
* jbailey reads the backscroll and phears.
<mdke> anyhow the question was, who would be a good "official-ish" person to read the spec, other than those who have written it?
<jbailey> Anyone know *why* sabdfl was pinging me in the middle of a discussion about haircuts? =)
<mdke> lol
<bob2> that spec seems to have stated a problem without any evidence
<mdke> bob2, -doc
* mdke goes looking for a photo of jbailey 
<mdke> aha, yeah nice hair
* jbailey wonders which picture mdke found
<ssh_rdp> hey , where is fabbio ?
<Seveas> jsgotangco, thanks
<jsgotangco> the one with blue highlights!
<jsgotangco> or the one eating a banana during UDU
<ssh_rdp> :-?
<ssh_rdp> fabbione 
<mdke> jbailey, google just has one under images
<jsgotangco> try removing the adult filters heh
<jbailey> mdke: This is my favourite one right now: http://www.pateam.org/images/OLS/OLS2005/tn/IMGP0238.jpg.html
<Treenaks> jbailey: that's you from the front?
<azeem> http://web.walfield.org/~neal/photos/200307-norway/vigeland-jeff-2.html
<Treenaks> azeem: ...
<mdke> nice
<jsgotangco> jbailey: the blue highlights look sooo anime...
<jbailey> azeem: True, but in fairness at least it's not http://web.walfield.org/~neal/photos/200307-norway/vigeland-neal-marcus-1-small.html =)
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Yeah.  I need to get them redone soon.
<azeem> =)
<Treenaks> jbailey: or http://web.walfield.org/~neal/photos/200307-norway/vigeland-neal-2-small.html
<ssh_rdp> when can i find him?
<mdke> bob2, i'd like to know your views, can you join #ubuntu-doc?
<lifeless> jbailey: hello from the same city!
<jsgotangco> whoa
<jsgotangco> lifeless: already in montreal?
<jbailey> lifeless: Ooo!  You're in Montral already?
<lifeless> jbailey: yeth
<lifeless> jsgotangco: ditto
<zakame> jsgotangco: when are you going? :)
<jbailey> lifeless: Interested in coming over and keeping doko and I from getting work done? =)  We're in a toolchain minisprint. =)
* Treenaks will be going next Saturday
<lifeless> jbailey: how far to your place ?
<jbailey> lifeless: From here?  2 or 3 metres.
<Treenaks> *headdesk*
<Treenaks> what's the weather like in $city?
* lifeless slapths jbailey 
<jsgotangco> lol
<lifeless> jbailey: from $whereIam
<Treenaks> lifeless: maps.google.com :)
<lifeless> Treenaks: and that helps me determine travel time how ?
<jbailey> lifeless: It has source and destination.
<Treenaks> lifeless: it'll give you distance
<jbailey> lifeless: But better than that.. WTH are you? =)
<Treenaks> lifeless: distance / speed = time
<lifeless> jbailey: holiday inn
<Lathiat> Treenaks: or better yet distance / time = speed
<lifeless> Treenaks: I am not a crow
<jbailey> Treenaks: Effective temp (including windchill) of -1C, Actual 4C, raining.
<Treenaks> jbailey: thanks, now I know what to pack :)
<jbailey> lifeless: Do you remember off hand which subway station is closest?
<lifeless> jbailey: you have a subway ?
<jbailey> Treenaks: Remember to bring a Hallowe'en costume. =)
<jbailey> lifeless: No, but the city does.
<jbailey> I had one but had to sell it..
<lifeless> sweet
* jbailey sings MONORAIL!
<lifeless> hope you got a profit
<Lathiat> haha
<Treenaks> jbailey: I have Corel Linux CDs
<lifeless>   Holiday Inn Select
<lifeless> MONTREAL-CTR VLE-DWTN CONV CTR
<lifeless> 99 VIGER AVE & ST. URBAIN ST.
<lifeless> MONTREAL, QC H2Z1E9
<jbailey> lifeless: You're 4km from here.
* Diziet realises why davenant (house server) was being slow.  The overnight mirror run just finished.
<Treenaks> Diziet: you did 'sync'
<lifeless> jbailey: thats reasonably close
<Treenaks> Diziet: and it's syncing everything out to disk?
<lifeless> jbailey: cab//subway best ?
<jbailey> lifeless: You're closest to Place D'Armes mtro
<lifeless> Where do I need to get to ?
<jbailey> http://www.stcum.qc.ca/ is english metro map
<lifeless> (subway wise)
<jbailey> (switching to /msg)
<Diziet> treenaks: No, just a simple matter of making 108145 hardlinks.
<Treenaks> Diziet: still needs to be synced to disk :)
<zakame> wb Seveas
* Treenaks download map to phone :)
<Treenaks> hm.
* Treenaks cuts map into pieces, then downloads to phone
<sivang> Treenaks: this time we arrive the same time so you wouldn't be able to publish photos eh? :)
<sivang> does anybody know if we got soft midi working out of the box in breezy?
<Treenaks> sivang: no, and I probably won't be staying at the same place as you
<sivang> Treenaks: oh
<Treenaks> sivang: unless you're staying in the 500m-away-hostel
* lifeless -> jeffs
<salgado> jbailey, around?
<jbailey> salgado: yoyosup?
* lamont idly wonders if MOM is online and doing her job.
<salgado> jbailey, does the scripts inside the hooks/ dir will be run after mkinitramfs finishes?
<sivang> lamont: she's supposed to file auto merge bugs into bugzilla right?
<jbailey> salgado: They're invoked as part of mkinitramfs.
<jbailey> salgado: Are you just trying to figure out the order, or is there a bug you're chasing?
<jbailey> salgado: (So I know what info to give you)
<salgado> jbailey, I was trying to figure out the order. I need to add a post-mkinitramfs-run script
<salgado> is it possible to do that?
<jbailey> salgado: Not really, no.  The hooks run near to the end, but not after it.  What do you need the script to do?  Maybe we can solve the problem another way.
<lamont> Simira: yes
<lamont> s/Simira/sivang/
<salgado> jbailey, I want to have the network bootable images automatically generated when a new kernel is installed
<jbailey> salgado: Right, you have two problems I think:
<jbailey> 1) initramfs can be regenerated by many apps in dapper
<jbailey> 2) There's no promise that this is the last step in preparing the kernel in the kernel scripts.
<jbailey> To solve #1, you need hooks in initramfs-tools
<jbailey> To solve #2, you need a hook in the kernel package.
<salgado> something like a postinst in the kernel package? or would that be run before the initramfs is generated?
<Keybuk> jbailey: here's a crazy thought ...
<Keybuk> generate it in an rc6.d script
<zakame> haha
<Keybuk> it's not actually a "funny"
<Keybuk> Windows does this for a few things, stashes them to be done at shutdown/reboot
<Keybuk> if the user just powers off their machine or hard-resets it, there are other potential problems like whatever we just put on the filesystem not being there anymore ...
<zakame> eh?
<zakame> oh, the "haha" :( sorry, wrogn chan)
<Keybuk> ahh
<Keybuk> it's soooo quiet
<zakame> I suppose folks are packing for Montreal
<jsgotangco> Keybuk: where does the F1 app pull data from? the live timing? was thinking of the same for A1
<Keybuk> there's a server the FIA provide that outputs it
<Keybuk> no idea whether A1 have anything similar
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<Keybuk> most of the work was painstakingly reverse engineering the network protocol to figure it out
<trulux> morning
<sivang> hey trulux 
<mdke> Znarl, ping?
<zakame> hey trulux
<Znarl> mdke : Hello!
<mdke> Znarl, the ip address of doc.ubuntu.com seems to be weirdly oscillating between the old and new, (http://pastebin.com/406321) is this normal? any ideas what is wrong?
<trulux> heya guys :)
<trulux> how's it going?
<Znarl> mdke : Ohh, I'll fix that.
<mdke> Znarl, merci
<mdke> Znarl, also, any news on rt #567
<mdke> ?
<Znarl> mdke : That's going to have to wait I'm affraid.
<mdke> k
<Znarl> It's super urgent?  Generally urgent or nice for it to be done?
<mdke> no not urgent, just nice, but i've been waiting a couple of weeks on it, due to no fault of you guys
<mdke> let's face it, it's not gonna be done once UBZ starts, right?
<Diziet> ubuntu.com: warning: glueless NS ns0.blackcatnetworks.co.uk ([192.42.93.30]  g.gtld-servers.net, server for com)
<sivang> mdke: can anyone access rt?
<mdke> sivang, not sure
<Diziet> And the same warning about ns1.
<Znarl> Diziet : Yes. :(  This will be fixed in the next few days.
<Diziet> OK.
<Diziet> I just thought you might like to know ...
<Znarl> We're changing our DNS hosting to avoid many problems such as this one and mdke strange docs resolving issues.
<Diziet> I use BCN and don't have glueless nameservers :-P.
<Diziet> (And I don't have `strange resolving issues' either, generally.)
<Znarl> Diziet : Yes, thanks for letting me know about ubuntu.com.  :P
<dholbach> hi BenC 
<xTina> Is it on purpose that /usr/bin/xterm does not write any utmp entries, even if run with +ut?
<Keybuk> does Canada use dodgy american spit at you and try to kill you power sockets?
<dilinger> american power sockets spit at you?
<Keybuk> yes, they're evil
<dilinger> what'd you do to piss them off?
<sivang> Keybuk: I didn't know that
<dilinger> last time i was in montreal i seem to recall not needing power adapters
<Keybuk> dilinger: they just barely hold the plugs in, and spit at you when you plug things in, pull things out, or even go near them
<robitaille> I'm looking around me in my office, and none of these canadian power sockets are spitting at me this morning :)
<dilinger> Keybuk: i think that's more a factor of the wiring in the place you're in, and the state of the wall sockets
<dilinger> someplace that isn't falling apart or 100 years old shouldn't be spitting at you or dropping your plugs
<robitaille> but generally canadian wiring/sockets are exactly like the ones in the US.
<mdke> surely US voltage is ok for european stuff, it's only the other way round that things start getting crazy
<Keybuk> dilinger: bear in mind the country I come from believe in absolute safely when it comes to plug design, there's absolutely no possible way you can be electrocuted or start a fire with a british plug, and if you get mugged you can use them as a weapon
<dilinger> Keybuk: we like to let our kids learn about electricity at a young age, w/ hands-on experience
<lamont> Keybuk: I mean, it's not like it'll kill you or anything........
<sivang> Keybuk: lol, do you have a photo of those? what's the voltage there in England?
<Diziet> Try running a British kettle off US voltage and see how long it takes to boil water ...
<zul> heh i shocked my electiricy lab partner
<Diziet> http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=150692&N=401
<spayne> why not just take a portable generator with you :)
<spayne> would probally save a lot of problems
<lamont> Keybuk: I like the .za plugs much better for weapons potential.
<lamont> of course, it's always appropriate to bring UK adapters (so you can plug into a UK outlet) to ubuntu conferences
<sivang> Diziet: that's a british one? 
<Mithrandir> I'll just bring my spiked ball-o-death which can also be used as a weapon.
<Diziet> Hopefully in Montreal I'll be able to buy a US-plug-to-3-pin-laptop lead.
* sivang is worried. Will me US t43 adaptor work in canada?
<lamont> sivang: yes, uk adapter
<lamont> US appliances tend to work in canada
* lamont tries to remember if canada is 50 or 60 hz
<lamont> but iz 120VC
<lamont> s/C$//
<sivang> hmm, I now notice what we have in .IL is probably an antique version of the current british one
<dilinger> oh yea, right
<sivang> Diziet: is england 220V ?
<mdke> 240
<Diziet> 230.
<Diziet> Europe has standardised on 230.
<spayne> Seveas: ping
<Seveas> spayne, pong
<mdke> my bad
<Diziet> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_wiring_%28UK%29.
<jsgotangco> good night :)
<zul> circuit city has plugs if you need them
<Diziet> Damn, I made my ffox build get past the sticking point but of course now it actually has to compile the damn files.  (ccache)
<lamont> mdz/kamion/elmo: if you're so inclined, NEWing tex-common would free up large portions of the dapper world.
<lamont> (tetex-base is currently uninstallable)
<\sh> evening
<dholbach> bbl
<dholbach> lunch :)
<\sh> Treenaks: I'm looking like my hackergotchi?
<\sh> Treenaks: i think my hackergotchi looks better ,)
* Nafallo saw photos of \sh on the planet ;-)
<\sh> hehe
<sivang> hey \sh 
<\sh> bbl
<Diziet> Wahey, my strange mutant ffox build finished and made a .deb.  Now I can see how badly it fails to work.
<\sh> Diziet: hey....u don't work for nagra? ,-)
<Diziet> Answer: it fails run-time linking :-/.
<slomo> infinity: can you tell me what happened to my xmms-musepack upload over one hour ago? it was announced at dapper-changes but even the source isn't in the archives yet... other packages i uploaded after that one are already build and everything ;)
<\sh> Diziet: well..this' better then crashing after 146MB of ram size ... 
<cevizoglu> join #debian
<Nafallo> cevizoglu: all of us?
<cevizoglu> doh
<cevizoglu> sorry
<Nafallo> ah, typo :-)
<Nafallo> np
<Diziet> Looks like my build was tainted somehow and I'll have to start from the beginning.  I hope ccache isn't buggy, or I'll be very confused and then very annoyed.
* \sh will now go to bed after 12 hours of hard real life work...
<\sh> g'night
<spayne> jdub: ping
<jdub> spayne: pong
<jdub> fuck this! i'm running dapper!
<Amaranth> heh
<cevizoglu> jdub: whatever floats your boat
<jdub> gosh, even with X, it's only a 100MB download
<mdke> it'll get crazier :)
<spayne> jdub: what's torn you to dapper already?
<Amaranth> pyxdg did it for me
<Amaranth> (i could have just downloaded and installed)
<Amaranth> but this is a vmware image, i took a snapshot before upgrading the first time
<spayne> now that's a good idea Amaranth 
* spayne wonders if Dapper will have more or less breakages thank Breezy
<Amaranth> less
<Amaranth> much less
<Amaranth> dapper is more polish, breezy was 3 or so huge changes happening all at once
<spayne> GCC 4, Xorg Modularisation and.....
<Amaranth> a couple of package name changes and such that caused massive ammounts of churn
<spayne> Mono as well!
<ajmitch> there was no big mono change
<spayne> ajmitch: Mono versions were bumped a lot
<spayne> ajmitch: which iirc, ended up in packages being broken for a while
<ajmitch> which affected only a very small portion of the archive
<rob^^^> is there a way to add user defined tags to Launchpad entries?
<Amaranth> sure, mono packages broken for awhile
<Amaranth> big deal
<ajmitch> and most packages were not broken for very long at all
<Amaranth> X and gcc caused the entire system to break
<jdub> spayne: diligence as an ubuntu devel branch user
<spayne> Amaranth: many an evening, i'd come home and be locked out of X :(
<spayne> jdub: woo!
<spayne> jdub: so you''ve ran the stable branch for a week or two :)
<rob^^^> spayne: I actually had one machine that made it all the way from hoary to breezy without running unstable
<cevizoglu> jdub: I hate kernel panics, so I only run OS releases three months prior at the maximum  :P
<spayne> rob^^^:  now, that's a miracle :)
<rob^^^> A personal box even, the servers really aren't a temptation
<cevizoglu> last year I got 35 kernel panics on a friuty  OS which shall rename nameless... no more for me
<cevizoglu> er, remain even
<linuxboy> I got a question about a document for ubuntu, can I ask it here?
<rob^^^> cevizoglu: My experience with the Fruit-based computer's Kernel panics is that they are either hardware or copy-protection related 99% of the time
<spayne> hey linuxboy 
<spayne> linuxboy: try #ubuntu-doc
<linuxboy> oh. spayne 
<linuxboy> ah
<linuxboy> cool
<spayne> hmm...banannaOS
<linuxboy> spayne: I think its the wrong place to ask
<linuxboy> I'll ask here anyway
<spayne> linuxboy: what's up?
<farruinn> rob^^^: I agree - I've only gotten kernel panics due to faulty hardware
<linuxboy> I have a bunch of ubuntu pcs at work, which I manage. I use things like 'dsh' to do so. Is there a wiki page/doc all about managing muliple ubuntu pcs in a office situation?
<spayne> rob^^^:  i find that that company must not have a good QA department
<linuxboy> if not, I want to start one
<spayne> linuxboy: have you searched the Wiki
<rob^^^> I have a lab with 9/16 G5s that were unbootable and had motherboard or cpu swapped during the first year
<farruinn> that's really unlucky
<spayne> rob^^^: i just bought a Mac Mini and dual boot Ubuntu/OS X and love it
<linuxboy> spayne: a bit, but I'm not too sure which keywords to use
<rob^^^> I was thinking it would be nice to mark all the drake-related features as to whether they were features or inferstructure
<spayne> but my iBook is 18 months old, has had 25 new parts and 9 repairs jobs
<farruinn> although we've sent back countless iMac G4's for motherboard replacement
<spayne> linuxboy: have you looked at the LTSP stuff on the Wiki?
<rob^^^> spayne: I've heard really nothing but good things about minis but everything else Is very questionable
<linuxboy> spayne: no, these PCs aren't thin clients
<spayne> why did Mako stop writing up the CC meetings
<mdke> spayne, lack of time
<spayne> mdke: good reason :)
<spayne> Seveas: sorry to bother you again but ping
<Seveas> spayne, pong, but if it's not development related continue in private
<dholbach> good night guys
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<spayne> night all
<jdub> http://wildbill.nulldevice.net/archives/000147.html
<jdub> ^ um, seriously, wow.
<Treenaks> jdub: did you get my mail yet? :)
<jdub> nup!
<wasabi_> Great. Found another breezy bug.
<Treenaks> jdub: hmm.. shall I resend to another address, try if that server likes it better>
<jdub> Treenaks: where did you send?
<Treenaks> jdub: jeff.waugh@canonical.com
<jdub> hrm
<jdub> try jeff@waugh.id.au
<Treenaks> jdub: sent
<wasabi_> somehow my system has two ldap versions.
<wasabi_> grrr.
<wasabi_> Um.
<wasabi_> The situation with openldap confuses me.
<wasabi_> openldap2.2 and openldap2 are both in breezy, it appears. One produces libs and slapd, but no dev packages.
#ubuntu-devel 2005-11-01
<wasabi_> And the other produces libs but no server.
<ogra> doko, PING !
<ogra> doko, where are you ? i'm in the cellar at the ppol table 
<ogra> *pool
<ajmitch> hi ogra :)
<ogra> hey
<ajmitch> in montreal already?
<ogra> yup
<ogra> since 10 min in the hostel
<tseng> you and your hostels
<tseng> silly germans
<ajmitch> heh
<ajmitch> and on irc already
<ajmitch> you can't give it up :)
<ogra> gah... only 12h offline and lready 400 mails waiting :/
<tseng> i was on irc within 5 minutes of being shown my room at UDU
<ogra> but at least i have some bandwith here :)
<tseng> it took that long to find an AP in range
<ogra> heh
<Kamion> sladen: yo, if you haven't done so already in your version, could you fix e2fs-zero.py's usage message? it claims that --write is the default even though it isn't
<tseng> and to ask where dholbach was
<tseng> another 5 minutes later he found me
<Kamion> sladen: our use of it for amd64 throughout the breezy dev cycle was a complete no-op because we believed the usage message and didn't realise it was running in dry-run mode throughout :-0
<Kamion> :-)
<ogra> i have no working power adapter yet :/
<ogra> so i'll have to go off again to save battery
<cevizoglu> hostels aren't just german  :P
<sivang> ogra: you have a broken adaptore?
<tseng> sivang: no, he is in north america with a german power cable
<ogra> nope, i have no adapter for american power...
<ogra> (i have a australian and a english one here :) )
<sivang> :)
* ajmitch needs to get one as soon as he arrives
<sivang> ogra: btw, what are you subscribed to? 400emails??! :)
<sivang> ogra: how the flight?
<ogra> doko, i'm in room 201 i have to save battery power... if you want to go out eating, i'd be happy to invite you... ;)
<ogra> bye all
<ajmitch> sivang: 400 is quite small, isn't it? :)
<sivang> ajmitch: if you're subscribed to a couple upstream mailing lists, I guess no :)
<sivang> ajmitch: s/no/yes/
<hmrocha> hello
<hmrocha> everytime a program i'm doing segfaults, never core dumps
<hmrocha> why?
<hmrocha> coding without core dumps, makes debugging much harder
<jdub> hmrocha: ulimit -c -> the output will be 0
<hmrocha> yup, it's 0
<jdub> thats why :)
<hmrocha> how can i enable core dumps?
<jdub> ulimit -c unlimited
<jdub> and run stuff from that shell
<hmrocha> ok, thanks :)
<hmrocha> i'll try
<hmrocha> it worked :)
<hmrocha> thanks
<hmrocha> btw, eclipse in 5.10 is all fucked up!
<hmrocha> i installed it in the desktops of two of my teachers
<hmrocha> they can't checkout cvs projects
<carstenh> use the binary from upstream instead?
<hmrocha> i told them that ubuntu would solve all their linux problems (it didn't)
<hmrocha> i told him to do that, but he told me it didn't work either
<hmrocha> i thought it could be because eclipse is compiled with gcj
<jdub> hmrocha: that's a pretty dangerous statement to make, whatever you're talking about
<hmrocha> jdub, what statement? the eclipse one? or the ubuntu solving problems?
<jdub> "solve all their ... problems"
<hmrocha> jdub, i installed ubuntu in 200 computers at my college, it solved all students problems :)
<hmrocha> i'm still waiting for the breezy cd's
<hmrocha> well, not all, but most of them
<hmrocha> most of them (including me) don't like the emacs interface
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, what does emacs have to do with ubuntu?
<hmrocha> cevizoglu, ubuntu has emacs in the repositories, but it's not compiled with svn support
<hmrocha> cevizoglu, and the buttons are not the new buttons
<cevizoglu> ubuntu solved more of my problems than OS X, Windows, any all other distros..
<hmrocha> cevizoglu, for me too, ubuntu rocks
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, you mean they don't like the emacs interface in hoary?
<hmrocha> emacs in ubuntu should have gtk2 support imho
<hmrocha> cevizoglu, yes
<cevizoglu> but my problems revolve around command-line addiction and laziness :)
<hmrocha> new computer science students don't understand cli, they only know what winxp is
<hmrocha> i'm preparing an ubuntu presentation for the new students
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, you can't use winxp as compsci without command-line either
<cevizoglu> all the windows-ites around me use it, if only for ipconfig and ping
<hmrocha> so they can know what programs are available and similarities between winxp
<hmrocha> yes, but that's two commands
<hmrocha> you don't use cli in winxp as a regular basis
<hmrocha> in ubuntu (linux in general), you must use it
* carstenh does not think linux users must use cli or win xp users can't live without cli for things like ping
<carstenh> nor do i think that new cs students know only win xp
<hmrocha> if i want to copy a file from my home folder to /usr/local/bin, how can i do it without cli?
<carstenh> most here use either gentoo or xp
<carstenh> nautilus?
<hmrocha> nautilus should prompt for a password because i don't have permissions to write to that folder
<hmrocha> but instead, it just says that i don't have permission
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, gksudo it
<jdub> ugh, don't do that
<jdub> hmrocha: that's basically a good ting
<hmrocha> that is not good
<hmrocha> jdub, not being able to copy a file to /usr/local ?
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, what isn't good?  gksudo?  I wouldn't know, I don't use the GUI  :)
<jdub> hmrocha: yep - describe the use cases for a normal user
<jdub> cevizoglu: running nautilus as root is a terrible idea
<cevizoglu> jdub, ic
<hmrocha> jdub, a user has a script that he want to copy to /usr/local/bin
<hmrocha> he opens /usr/local/bin in nautilus and drags the script to the folder
<jdub> hmrocha: no, tell me *why*. what is the use case? :)
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, the user makes a bin folder in his home directory.  he then adds it to his **own** search paths
<hmrocha> cevizoglu, the user is "lame" and he doesn't know how to change the search paths
<hmrocha> cevizoglu, you can't use cli remember?
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, then how will he survive running scripts without killing everything on the system?
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, I can't use cli?
<jdub> hmrocha: when putting something in bin directories, you're already assuming command line use to a massive extent anyway (very few GUI programs will usefully install that way)
<hmrocha> cevizoglu, in this use case, you can't
<jdub> hmrocha: so you need to outline the use case - i don't believe there is one for a regular user
<hmrocha> a regular user wants to install a program but he doesn't know that repositories exist (because they don't in winxp)
<hmrocha> he goes to the program's website and downloads the .tar.gz
<hmrocha> right click->extract here
<jdub> at this point, the user is already lost, btw :)
<hmrocha> he doesn't know what to do next
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, then he's unable to build it...
<hmrocha> cevizoglu, yes
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, and if he does, his system is gone because he didn't use checkinstall
<cevizoglu> right?
<hmrocha> i don't know what checkinstall is
<hmrocha> he should be able to click the configure script, gnome should know that it's a configure script
<hmrocha> and open a "terminal window" like it does when you use synaptic and you want to know what's going on
<jdub> hmrocha: no dude, that's way, way too complex - it's just not going to work
<hmrocha> jdub, ok, you win :D
<jdub> as soon as you start talking about regular users building software, you're in the realms of fantasy - sorry :)
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, that's why there are .deb files in the first place
<hmrocha> cevizoglu, true
<hmrocha> cevizoglu, how can i install a .deb in ubuntu without cli?
<cevizoglu> hmrocha, because checkinstall turns the final installed product into a .deb file
<jdub> hmrocha: you can't atm, there is a discussion about this on ubuntu0devel atm. whether it makes sense or not is yet to be decided.
<jdub> we're going to make it much easier to use repositories and find packages that way
<jdub> and make it much easier for third parties to provide useful repositories
<hmrocha> in my opinion, you should be able to download a .deb, click it and you should be able to install it with a gui
<jdub> perhaps, but that might not be the best way of doing it, or the best user experience
<hmrocha> i mean, it should resolve the dependencies automatically by downloading available packages from the reps
<jdub> that ends up being like windows, where you download completely random software
<hmrocha> and install the wanted .deb
<jdub> not secure, etc.
<jdub> see the ubuntu-devel list for a lengthy discussion about this
<hmrocha> ok
<jdub> we'll be covering this at UBZ
<hmrocha> btw, there should be a gui for setting up dual monitors
<magnon> there should be a gui to learn people to do all the junk tasks in the term :-)
<magnon> until someone makes a gui to do them
<cevizoglu> :D
<hmrocha> fedora already has a gui for that
<hmrocha> it's open source, you could adapt the code i think
<hmrocha> well, i have to code some stuff, bye
<hmrocha> jdub, thanks for the help with the core dumps
<mpt> hmrocha, I thought that was reported already, but the only reference seems to be http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48498#c7
<mpt> hmrocha: and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt is one of the (many, iirc) braindumps about installing stuff that isn't in our repositories
<hmrocha> mpt, thanks for the links :)
<TMM> whoever pointed me to python-vte, thanks a lot, it was exactly what I needed, it turned out :)
* ajmitch hopes it's not too late to get a spec registered
<adamh> I'm using Eclipse and I can't seem to find any option to create a new JUnit test case. Does Ubuntu's version of Eclipse disable JUnit?
<mpool> hi
<mpool> what's the policy on moving bugfixes into breezy-updates?
<mpool> is there a particular severity of bug necessary to justify an update?
<Burgundavia> mpool, crashers and data-loss
<ajmitch> mpool: generally critical/data-loss
<ajmitch> which mdz will look at & approve
<daniels> mpool: if you wouldn't feel bad about everyone using breezy downloading that package
<daniels> that's the metric I go by (which means xorg updates are unfortunately very difficult to rationalise)
<mpool> ok
<mpool> this seems stricter than debian's policy?
<mpool> maybe not
<ajmitch> debian's policy is still reasonably strict, I think
<mpool> so each release is pretty stable once it goes out, even if you turn on updates
<mpool> ok
<ajmitch> was there a bug in breezy's bzr?
<mpool> no, it's in pilot-link
<mpool> debian #325275
<mpool> it's a bit obscure and can be fixed by patching a shell script by hand
<mpool> afaik breezy's bzr is ok
<mpool> though i suspect before dapper is out people will be wanting to install something more recent
<ajmitch> right, so it's a universe package that's affected
<ajmitch> we can pass it by mdz for comment, I guess
<mpool> i was just curious
<mpool> i don't want to make a special argument for it
<irvin> anyone here?
<N6REJ> would anyone care to have a non-flame discussion with me about a good way to use ubuntu as a server in my particular situation?
<wasabi> sure, in #ubuntu
<HrdwrBoB> N6REJ: that's not an ubuntu development issue
<irvin> would a discussion on developing a web-based front end for apt fit here?
<N6REJ> HrdwrBoB: what is your particular malfunction... yesterday you gave me a hard time when I had a perfectly reasonable question..... tonight I come here to AVOID your obnoxiousness and yet you perserve!!! you have a personal problem withme or you just generally hate giving meaningfull help?
<N6REJ> Ubuntu- OUT of the box, has some SEROUS server issuses!
<HrdwrBoB> N6REJ: I'm more than happy to help you
<N6REJ> serious even/
<N6REJ> oh, so you've changed your powersupply  since last night?
<ajmitch> N6REJ: sorry, but that's hardly the type of tone to take 
<N6REJ> ajmitch: I'm sorry, I've been treated VERY well by most and very badly by a few....I'm a bit gunshy tonight
<irvin> i'm trying to cook up a web-based front end for apt which would be very usefull for nonbroadband users like me
<N6REJ> I'll take it to offtopic
<irvin> if someone could explain how apt-get works i'd really appreciate it...
<irvin> if i were to replicate apt-get update for example using only my browser... so far here's what i can understand
<irvin> opening ph.archive.ubutu.com/ubuntu/dists/main i can see the repositories
<irvin> the file Contents-i386.gz contains all the package info and their checksums (md5/sha1)
<irvin> is someone listening?
<irvin> :-(
<irvin> if i can generate the same file like contents-i386.gz on my home computer and compare it with the one from the ubuntu server i'd find the files that would need updating...
<minghua> irvin: you probably want to read APT howto first
<minghua> here is a link for you http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/index.en.html
<minghua> irvin: and manpages of apt programs as well
<irvin> minghua: i already did but that only gives me instructions how to use apt
<minghua> irvin: and this question is better for #ubuntu
<minghua> as it has nothing to do with development
<irvin> well thanks anyway
<OddAbe19> where can i get a recent list of uploads to dapper?
<jdub> OddAbe19: dapper-changes list
<OddAbe19> jdub, where do i grab that
<jdub> OddAbe19: lists.ubuntu.com
<OddAbe19> tnx
<sladen> Kamion: D'oh.  D'oh.... D'oh
* lamont-away grumbles at sladen
<lamont-away> -w not default and all that...
<lamont-away> sladen: but I forgive you
<sladen> conservatively paranoid
<ajmitch> sladen: can you fix up some of the #ubuntu-motu chanserv settings please?
* lamont-away ->bed
<sladen> ajmitch: you have as much power as me to fix them.  Just ask chanserv for ops...
<ajmitch> you're listed as channel owner, I don't want to leave it where anyone can grab ops
<sladen> ajmitch: I don't /think/ I should be any more priviliged than $anyone.  If that is the case, it wasn't intended.
<ajmitch> Contact: sladen 
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> you must have registered back in the past
<sladen> ajmitch: I suspect by me setting the ACL it named me
<sladen> ...initially setting the ACL...
<ajmitch> lovely
<ajmitch> it might be good to set it to one of ogra or dholbach
<kagou> hi
<kagou> is there an option to activate the dma on a dvd-writer, when i boot on the breezy install cd ?
<bob2> edit /etc/hdparm.conf
<kagou> no bob2 , " when i boot on the breezy install cd" for an installation
<bob2> yes, I know what you said
<dholbach> hello
<kagou> bob2, i found that there is already a bug #16901
<kagou> regards ++
<yi> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/muine/+bug/3571
<yi> anyone care to take a look and see if they can reproduce it?
<mdke> morning
<sivang> good morning
<Treenaks> hey mr sivan
<infinity> Grr, I can't update the status on specs assigned to me.  What a pain.
<sivang> Treenaks: ho ho :)
<zyga> morning
<\sh> moins
<sivang> hey \sh , how are you? cheered?
<\sh> sivang: headache from yesterday...the work on the channel line up took my last power it seems...
<\sh> sivang: but today I have to do some last preparations for UBZ...and uploading some already waiting packages to dapper...
<ajmitch> hi \sh 
<\sh> moins ajmitch 
<jdub> hrm
<jdub> flash broken on dapper
<jdub> *cough*
<jdub> ;-)
<mdke> lol
<Treenaks> jdub: badger badger badger badger
<jdub> Treenaks: exactly :)
<jdub> Treenaks: realised i should put the file on my disk so i can always play it :)
<Treenaks> jdub: even if your xattrs break? :)
* jdub installs swf-player to see if it works
<jdub> Treenaks: heh, turned those off *real* fast :)
<jdub> Treenaks: got some outtakes? :)
<ajmitch> hi jdub 
<Treenaks> jdub: on my laptop/external USB disk
<jdub> morning ajmitch lovers
<Treenaks> jdub: but for some reason it's not running sshd :(
<jdub> d'oh
<jdub> fascist!
<Treenaks> jdub: I have a few cool ones :)
<ajmitch> jdub: got great plans for Love Day?
<jdub> ajmitch: yeah, seen the wiki page? schedule is rad
<ajmitch> yep, seen the wiki
<ajmitch> I bet there'll be a few potential MOTUs to show off our wares to
<jdub> wow, swf-player is pretty pants
<ivoks> hi
<ajmitch> hey ivoks 
<ivoks> our portal is doing nice, yay!
<ajmitch> the croatian team?
<ivoks> yeah..
<ajmitch> great :)
<ajmitch> dholbach: I went ahead & added a new spec about MOTUs..
<spayne> mornin' all
<dholbach> ajmitch: cool, thank you
<dholbach> hi spayne 
<ajmitch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseAndDebian if you want to fill in something :)
* ajmitch barely started it :)
<Lathiat> wow ajmitch 
<ajmitch> wiki is so slow to save things..
<Lathiat> tahts some quality spec work
<Lathiat> im impressed
<ajmitch> Lathiat: thanks!
<ajmitch> hello spayne 
<Lathiat> can you teach me?
<ajmitch> Lathiat: sure
<ivoks> :)
<ajmitch> Lathiat: it's called, take the results of an irc conversation & think of a new spec to vomit up
<ajmitch> 2 minutes later, something urgent comes up at work :)
* Lathiat laughs
<ajmitch> Lathiat: feel free to add something to it
<ajmitch> I imagine there could be a little debate about it at UBZ ;)
<Lathiat> launchpad needs a list of "interested" people for specs
<Mithrandir> Lathiat: it's called "subscription"
<Lathiat> oh
<Lathiat> you can
<Lathiat> im sure that wasnt there before
<Lathiat> im probabluy just blind
<Mithrandir> it was there a few days ago, at least.
<sivang> Mithrandir: not sure about the emailing interface for the spec tracker, I didn't get even a single mail from it about changes so far :)
<Lathiat> ugh
<Mithrandir> sivang: me neither
<Lathiat> who proposed to ship /home as Desktop in nautilus
<Treenaks> Lathiat: check the changelog :)
<sivang> Lathiat: if it has my name on it, that doesn't mean I suggested that, but rather inputted it into launchpad :)
* mdke shivers
<Lathiat> and to fix the problem of not cluttering the desktop, the author suggests not having a nautilus on the root window
* Lathiat shoots them
<mdke> i saw an email from sabdfl saying that he was totally against it
<Lathiat> yeh
<Lathiat> he put that in the wiki page too
<Lathiat> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HomeAsDesktop
<mdke> ah ok not an email :)
<sivang> mdke: where?
<mdke> on that wikipage
<jdub> Lathiat: oh jebus
<jdub> that's like, NO FUCKING WAY
<mdke> heh
<Treenaks> jdub: then we need a way to translate the Desktop directory name
<Treenaks> (and the other "special" folders)
* jdub does not want to defend sanity from the sabdfl side as well as the random crackpot side
<Lathiat> Treenaks: theres been many long discussions about this
<jdub> Treenaks: yeah, i have a half-written proposal for how to do that
<jdub> very much an upstream oissue though
<Treenaks> Lathiat: I don't like $HOME=Desktop either, but it _is_ a solution to that problem :)
<jdub> particularly in dapper period
<Lathiat> Treenaks: its a solution to Desktop
<Lathiat> it doesnt dosolve Documents ;)
<Treenaks> Lathiat: true, true
<jdub> Lathiat: the same solution can be used to handle other directories
<Lathiat> jdub: what, forget about folders and stick everythign in $HOME? :)
<jdub> no, special directory handling, ala windows
<fabbione> morning fella
<fabbione> s
<Lathiat> windows has my documents?
<Lathiat> and in XP has like
<Lathiat> my music
<Lathiat> and heaps of other crack
<Lathiat> my ebooks
<jdub> Lathiat: but they're moveable
<fabbione> jdub: put your butt on the plane and come here dude
<Treenaks> Lathiat: yes, and the location of those is specified in the registry
<jdub> fabbione: butt moving in ~1hr
* Lathiat nods
<sivang> fabbione: in montreal ?
<jdub> fabbione: butt very sore ;)
<sivang> lol
<fabbione> sivang: yes
<Treenaks> jdub: lost your pants again? :)
<Lathiat> haha
<fabbione> jdub: sore? dude.. i told you to avoid gay bars
<sivang> fabbione: lolol
* sivang ROTFL
* dholbach thought along the same lines as fabbione...
<fabbione> dholbach: all the german invasion squad is waiting for you
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> i'll arrive on 29th
<sivang> fabbione: germen invasion squad?
* Aegir pines for the old days of Linux. Everything is too easy. His PDA now syncs, Wine actually works, his iPod is actually usefull, and VMWare installed without pulling hair out
<dholbach> sivang: mvo, pitti, doko, ogra
<maswan> http://www.acc.umu.se/technical/statistics/ftp/total.html.en
<maswan> we now have the stats updated from the release offload hosts
<jdub> maswan: ooh
<jdub> maswan: publically linkable?
<Lathiat> 2794866 5.04 isos?
<maswan> jdub: sure, but the information is way down in there
<maswan> Lathiat: read the ammount of data, the number of downloads is the number of requested (partial) downloads
<Lathiat> righto
<Mithrandir> hi Simira 
<Simira> morning
<jdub> maswan: jesus, six million hoary downlodas
<maswan> about 66 TB of breezy downloads
<jdub> > 3 million breezy downloads already
<maswan> jdub: ehm, 180k full downloads of hoary
<maswan> and about 100k breezy downloads, if the isos are average about 0.6G
<jdub> mirror/ubuntu-releases/5.0462682716268165
<jdub> ber
<maswan> jdub: note what I said to Lathiat, the number of downloads is the number of partial downloads.
<jdub> oh, other files?
<jdub> 'completed transfers' isn't full downloads?
<maswan> jdub: no, since apache doesn't have a good way of specifying complete/partial downloads
<maswan> jdub: at least, I didn't find a good %c for that
<jdub> so 5.04 i386 iso completed transfers is 2794859
<jdub> is that figure wrong?
<maswan> yes
<maswan> look at the total bytes transfered list, and then divide by iso size
<jdub> hrm, how do i interpret this correctly? bytes / file size?
<jdub> right
<jdub> damn, vastly less fun ;)
<maswan> also, HEADER.html/MD5SUMS etc also counts like a file download
<jdub> yeah
<maswan> but 100+k downloads of breezy so far is fun anyway, I tihnk. :)
<Lathiat> jdub: so are you going to pimp zeroconfspec with ajmitch for me? :)
<jdub> Lathiat: yep
<Lathiat> jdub: sweet. :)
<jdub> Lathiat: noticed that /etc/nsswitch.conf already has mdns in it (in dapper)?
* Lathiat laughs
<Lathiat> seb did up an avhai main inclusion report
<Lathiat> i should do one for nss-mdns i guess
<Lathiat> avahi 0.6 is looking sweet
<jdub> Lathiat: of course, we're going to have to do something about your kde problem
<Lathiat> unofrtunately it broke the api to all hell, but we're trying to get it all done now rather than later
<Lathiat> jdub: heh
* jdub runs avahi-discover on random networks while he's travelling, often disappointed to see only my own host visible :(
<Lathiat> jdub: but sometimes see stuf?
<jdub> can't wait until i have a version of gaim that does ichat local foo
<Lathiat> :)
<jdub> Lathiat: very rarely
<Lathiat> jdub: it does
<Lathiat> in cvs/2
<Lathiat> with howl
<jdub> yeah
<Lathiat> but uh
<Lathiat> avahi 0.6 has libavahi-compat-howl ;)
<jdub> but i want one in dapper :)
<Lathiat> and libavahi-compat-bonjour
<Robot101> take over the wooooorld!
<dholbach> YAY! :)
<jdub> "Bags found unattended will be removed and destroyed. Have a nice day!"
<Aegir> jdub, Yeah, every bus I catch in the morning has somthing similar all through it
* mdke grumbles at gnome-blog
<ajmitch> Lathiat: yes, don't worry, avahi will get pimped
<mdke> whiprush, broken link on your fridge post, the wiki page is AddingRepositoriesHowto (no capital T in the last word)
<ajmitch> mdke: you could setup a wiki redirect :)
<mdke> ajmitch, i could, but it is best to try and limit the number of redirects IMO
<CaiN_SA> lo ajmitch 
<ajmitch> hi
<ajmitch> how are you, CaiN_SA ?\
<CaiN_SA> im ok
<CaiN_SA> just working my ass off
<ajmitch> heh
<CaiN_SA> cos im flying tonight
<ajmitch> ah fun
* ajmitch is flying in ~12 hours
<CaiN_SA> lol
<CaiN_SA> bastard
<CaiN_SA> im flying 20 hours
<CaiN_SA> +
<CaiN_SA> 6 hour wait in amsterdam
<ajmitch> don't worry, I've got a wait in auckland & a wait in vancouver
<ajmitch> so I don't arrive until saturday morning
<CaiN_SA> same here
<CaiN_SA> canonical paying or you ?
<ajmitch> me :(
<CaiN_SA> eish
<ajmitch> so I'm visiting some friends in the US afterwards
<ajmitch> hello Keybuk 
<Keybuk> heyhey
<Kamion> elmo: I've fixed up britney for dapper
<fabbione> hey Kamion
<Kamion> morning
<Keybuk> right, see you guys in Montreal
<fabbione> Keybuk: at what time will you arrive?
<Keybuk> fabbione: 7.45pm I think at the airport
<Keybuk> no idea what to do from there though
<fabbione> Keybuk: ok
<fabbione> Keybuk: it takes about 1 hours from there i think
<Keybuk> am going to jbailey's
<fabbione> Keybuk: ok
<fabbione> we might meet there than
<Keybuk> no idea where it is :p  will worry about that when I get there
<Keybuk> <g>
<Kamion> hmm, kelly's still breaking on trashapplet in queue/accepted/
<Keybuk> jbailey: +44 7855 ... obviously :p
<mdke> heh
<fabbione> Keybuk: now i am going to tell you the truth :)
<mdke> my number is that too
<Kamion> slomo_: xmms-musepack is in queue/accepted/ waiting for somebody to fix a crash in the archive maintenance suite that happens on an alphabetically earlier package in queue/accepted/
<Kamion> do we want trashapplet in dapper?
<fabbione> jbailey: lives 4 train stops from the hotel :O
<slomo_> Kamion: ok, thanks :)
<Kamion> oh, sod it, we can have it in universe
<dholbach> Kamion: it's part of gnome-applets
<dholbach> Kamion: so no need for it
<Kamion> dholbach: there's a separate trashapplet source in accepted
<Kamion> I'm going to let it through for now because unaccepting stuff is hard; we can remove it later
<dholbach> then it should be on the blacklist :)
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> no problem
<Kamion> could you mail elmo about that?
<dholbach> yeah
<dholbach> i have a bunch of other things on that list too
<Kinnison> Kamion: where did you put it?
<Kamion> Kinnison: put what?
<Kinnison> Kamion: the trashapplet upload which was crashing kelly
<Kamion> Kinnison: it's only crashing kelly because it's not in the overrides
<Kinnison> oh right
<Kinnison> so not helpful for me
<Kamion> how it got as far as accepted I'm not sure; I assume elmo did an override sync in between or something
<Kamion> Kinnison: it's in queue/launchpad/ though, like everything else
<Kinnison> Kamion: right
<Kamion> I've unstuck it now I think
<infinity> Hrm, what's responsible for making my IBM Fn-F5 hotkey disable both wireless AND bluetooth?
<infinity> mjg59 : ^
<mdke> infinity, i filed a bug on that once i think
* mdke looks
<mdke> oh no i didn't
<mdke> that sucks, i must have forgotten
<tepsipakki> something wrong with the mirrors? I cant netboot, it fails on nic-restricted-modules
<Treenaks> tepsipakki: maybe your CD is broken?
<Treenaks> oh wait
<Treenaks> netboot
<infinity> mdke : Any idea where this functionality is hiding, so I can just hack it a bit locallt?
<infinity> locally, even.
<tepsipakki> correction, nic-restricted-firmware
<mdke> infinity, acpi-support i guess, i seem to remember mjg59 saying that there was nothing they could do about this, but I'm not sure
<infinity> Well, afaik, in Windows (and at the hardware level), Fn-F5 just enables/disable bluetooth, not both.
<infinity> It was a bit of a shock to see it toggling both at the same time.
<mdke> infinity, in windows for me it toggles them individually, i.e. one->the other->both->neither
<infinity> That would also be acceptable.
<mdke> yep
<mdke> filing bug now
<infinity> Also irritating that I now can't disable bluetooth without rebooting. :)
* infinity wonders how much power it draws while idling
<mdke> try stopping acpi-support, using the button, then starting it?
<infinity> Nope, same effect.
<infinity> Not hotkey-setup either.  Oh well.
<tepsipakki> "GET /ubuntu/pool/universe/h/hw-detect/disk-detect_1.22ubuntu3_all.udeb HTTP/1.1" 404 341
<tepsipakki> now why is it trying to get it from there?
<mdke> infinity, how about stopping acpi too?
<tepsipakki> it wasn't nic-*, but disk-detect that is not found
<tepsipakki> I'd thought breezy was stable and quite static ;)
<mdke> infinity, bug #18548 filed, you in cc
<tepsipakki> hw-detect is in main, not in universe...
<Kamion> tepsipakki: why's it trying to get disk-detect at all, that's the question ...
<Kamion> we didn't use disk-detect in breezy (due to a screwup, but nevertheless)
<Kamion> tepsipakki: try again in about 20 minutes
<Kamion> it had ended up in breezy/main somehow when I promoted it to dapper/main; I've kicked it back to breezy/universe
<tepsipakki> ok ;)
<Kamion> the root problem is that it's really awkward to have a package be the same version in breezy and dapper and yet be in different components, because then the actual .deb/.udeb file has to be in both pool/main/ and pool/universe/
<Kamion> we have a horrible hacky symlink system that sort of sorts this out
<Kamion> but it seems to get a bit confused sometimes
<tepsipakki> I remember seeing something similar in May
<infinity> It's symlinked, not hardlinked?
<Kamion> yeah, May was before we started running the symlinker automatically as part of cron.daily, so people noticed it more often
<Kamion> infinity: yes - don't ask me why :)
<infinity> Why?
<infinity> :)
<Kamion> I have no idea. :-)
<Kinnison> because we don't use hardlink compliant rsync
<Kinnison> so hardlinks would increase the size of the pool
<Kamion> I wish we'd sorted out disk-detect earlier, but I only noticed that we were mysteriously still using hw-detect-full after breezy released
<infinity> Kinnison : Err, we don't, or our mirrors may not, and we're being nice to them?
<infinity> (The latter seems more plausible)
<Kinnison> Uhm, we don't let our mirrors do it
<Kinnison> because that would cause our top-tier mirror machines to die under platter-melt
<infinity> Oh.  I assume rsync was smart about hardlinks.
<infinity> Evidently not.
<Kamion> I didn't know it was that much harder to do hardlinks
<Kinnison> apparently it is
<infinity> I would expect it to be nearly a no-op, but whatever. :)
* infinity must test this.
<Kinnison> it may not be platter melt, it might be ram or cpu, but one resource was certainly in pain
<Kinnison> takes aaaages to do
<Kamion> anyway, I'll just dodge the problem by merging a new hw-detect from Debian into dapper
* Kinnison grins
<Kamion> then it's a different version and disk-detect can be safely promoted
<tepsipakki> kamion: hmm.. my netboot-image is from Oct 5.
<Kamion> tepsipakki: doesn't matter, it's talking to the archive for this bit
<Kamion> the netboot image is only the core that's needed to start up the installer and get more bits of itself from the archive
<tepsipakki> ok
<zyga> who maintains IRC logging facilities for ubuntu?
<Nafallo> zyga: depends on channel, but fabbione and smurfix
<zyga> fabbione: ping
<koke> I was thinking... any idea for activities on World Usability Day at ubz?
<koke> it's November 3rd
<mpt> There's a World Usability Day? awesome
<mpt> koke, btw, if you want to keep track of the AutomaticUpgrade spec the way to do that know is subscribing to it on Launchpad
<mpt> know -> now
<mpt> koke: Thanks also for your "What's wrong with Launchpad", I agree entirely and it's useful ammo
<koke> mpt: I'm preparing some more stuff for ubz, though I think there are a lot of things to change
<koke> like: Case #1: Completing a specific string of a translation
<koke> 8 steps to do that and giving up
<ajmitch> hey koke 
<mpt> koke: yeah, that seems like the top request for Rosetta, searching for a string
<koke> mpt: maybe I should have chosen a less obvious case :)
<koke> mpt: it's hard to find the subscribe option in spec page
<koke> iirc, the rest of subscribe actions have a + icon
<pef> Kamion: hello, for a change on a package for breezy-updates, what do you prefer ? a debdiff or a complete upload to revu ?
<Kamion> pef: I don't approve breezy-updates uploads; only mdz does that at present
<Kamion> I'd expect him to prefer a debdiff
<pef> Kamion: and for hoary-updates ?
<mpt> koke: ugh, you're right, I'll fix that
<pitti> Good morning
<ajmitch> morning pitti
<ajmitch> how are you?
<pitti> Hi ajmitch; still feeling tired (jetlag), but otherwise fine
<Kamion> pef: likewise
<ajmitch> pitti: ah great, you're in montreal now?
<pitti> yes
<pitti> Hi seb128
<seb128> hey Martin
<Treenaks> Montreal is geeking up :)
<ajmitch> pitti: enjoying it? :)
<pitti> ajmitch: I'll shortly enjoy the hotel breakfast, and Seb and I already enjoyed the pool
<ajmitch> great :)
<ajmitch> pitti: I'll see you there on saturday
<zyga> does anyone know if fabionne is traveling?
<dholbach> hey guys :)
<zyga> hey dholbach 
* seb128 hugs dholbach 
<dholbach> hey zyga 
<dholbach> zyga: i think so
<dholbach> it's the HUG DAY! :)
<pitti> Hi dholbach 
* dholbach hugs seb128 :)
<pitti> ajmitch: looking forward to it
<Treenaks> dholbach: uh.. Love Day is Sunday
<sivang> pitti: Hi Martin! How was the flight?
<seb128> dholbach, so, how is the GNOME packaging action? :)
<pitti> zyga: yes, he is here
<pitti> sivang: wonderful, I'll tell you when you are here
<sivang> pitti: cool, can't wait to meet again :)
<pitti> dholbach: "Lieutenant: status report!" :-)
* zyga needs a logging bot for #ubuntu-translators
<zyga> could someone help me with that?
<seb128> dholbach, reply faster!!!
<seb128> :p
* pitti calms down seb
<seb128> I'm calm, I just want to be on time for breakfast :p
<ajmitch> heh
<mdke> zyga, smurf can help you with that probably
<zyga> smurf: ping
<dholbach> pitti: did seb128 sleep all flight again?
<smurf> zyga: ?
<sivang> seb128: how do you do that? :)
<smurf> ah
<smurf> moment
<pitti> dholbach: no, that would have been a waste; we'll tell you when you are here
<zyga> smurf: could you help me with a logging bot for #u-translators
<sivang> heheh
<seb128> dholbach, come on, is that something I would do, sleeping all the flight!? :p
<seb128> dholbach, when do you come? saturday?
<dholbach> seb128: yes, around 12 something
<seb128> k
<seb128> anyway, time for breakfast now
<seb128> later guys
<sivang> seb128: bon appetite
<seb128> thanks
<seb128> pitti, move !
<sivang> heheh
<dholbach> have fun, guys
* seb128 hugs dholbach 
<dholbach> :)
<ajmitch> mm, hungry now
<seb128> dholbach, thanks for the GNOME uploads
<zyga> smurf: where can I look for the logs
<dholbach> seb128: de rien :)
<smurf> netz.smurf.noris.de/logs/freenode
<seb128> dholbach,  k, going now, see you later
<zyga> smurf: thanks :-)
<mdke> jdub, still around?
<fabbione> zyga: ?
<zyga> fabbione: already taken care of :-)
<fabbione> zyga: ok
<mdke> jdub, ok no worries, deping
<mdke> when I copy a file to a remote server using nautilus/sftp, it maintains the file permissions that the file had on the local server, rather than giving it the ownership of the user logged in by sftp... am I wrong in thinking that this is a bug?
<dholbach> see you later
<mdke> elmo, sent you a brief /query
<fabbione> infinity: ping?
<Simira> fabbione : are you working on Sunday?
<fabbione> Simira: for the Love day i will be around.. so yes
<Simira> fabbione : ok. We're thinking about when to go to the zoo. If you wanted to join, we'll go another day.
<fabbione> Simira: please just do your planning because i have vac today and probably tomorrow
<fabbione> so i will go around a bit on my own too
<fabbione> not sure where yet
<Simira> ok
<Diziet> Scary.  Debian's firefox, if you click on a link which has the right content-type, will offer to execute it for you.
<Lathiat> Diziet: eww
<Lathiat> Diziet: nice
<Treenaks> wb smurf 
<Treenaks> uh
<Treenaks> wimi
<Treenaks> uh
<Treenaks> ARGH
<Treenaks> wb Simira
<smurf> Treenaks: heh
<Diziet> *boggle*
* Mithrandir ruffles Treenaks
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: it must be the GB/US keyboard switching I'm doing all the time
<fabbione> i am off
<fabbione> later fellas
<Diziet> Right content-type> Well, it has to be a ffox extension or theme but of course that's no excuse.
<Simira> ok, someone: When I try to run Totem, x restarts. It's kind of annoying... any good ideas?
<Mithrandir> Simira: I think it's spelt "bug". :-P
<sivang> Simira: that used to happen to me with vmware , but I guerss with totem it's less scary :)
<Simira> Mithrandir : seems like there's enough bugs reported on similar problems
<Mithrandir> Simira: upgrade to dapper. ;-P  (Or don't, you should probably wait a little)
<Simira> I should rather downgrade to Hoary then :p
<pef> ajmitch: hello ajmitch , I have a question about your latest patch for ginac
<ajmitch> oh?
<pef> ajmitch: yeah :) ginac is FTBS in breezy, and I have fixed this, should I append my patch to your patch, or create a new one ?
<ajmitch> sigh, it  shouldn't ftbfs, but I changed it quite early on, I think
<pef> ajmitch: how did you generate your patch ? using dpatch-edit ?
<ajmitch> probably
<ajmitch> I'd have to find it to see
<pef> ajmitch: FTBS isn't very hard to find: http://dev.erodia.net/ubuntu/ginac_const-fix.diff
<ajmitch> right, that was back in june..
<ajmitch> the compiler had changed since then as well :)
<pef> yep !
<ajmitch> probably just update the current patch
<pef> ajmitch: does my patch seems ok for you ?
* ajmitch can't tell just by looking, at 3am ;)
<ajmitch> because my c++ skills are a little rusty at the moment
<pef> ajmitch: ok :]  I believe it's just a gcc4 issue, I think my patch is ok, but I will submit it to someone for review
<pef> ajmitch: thank you anyway, and good night 8)
<ajmitch> night :)
<pef> not for me, 4pm here ;)
<spayne> any idea when launchpad will be back?
<mdke> wrong channel spayne 
* mdke points
<spayne> #ubuntu......
<spayne> mdke: where should i be?
<mdke> #launchpad
<spayne> mdke: thanks :)
<psusi> does anyone know how to track down exactly how a package was built?  Like if it was built by build-deamons for instance?
<Diziet> All of the packages in our archive were built by build-daemons.
<psusi> hrm... I'm trying to figure out why a number of libraries on the amd64 build were built wrong, which leads to wasting of tons of ram
<psusi> specifically, they were built with a 1 MB alignment requirement so what would be an 8 KB mapping ends up being a 1 MB mapping... this for 2 mappings per library per process, with about 40 such libs used in a few dozen processes... wastes a lot of ram
<mjg59> psusi: Probably toolchain breakage
<Diziet> psusi: Are you sure that it actually wastes RAM ?  Perhaps, for example, the page table entries cover 1Mb each.
<psusi> so did build-daemons get an upgrade to toolchain after it built some of the libs, then the rest of the libs came out with this problem?
<mjg59> psusi: That's quite possible.
<Diziet> I think the right approach is firstly to understand whether it's really a problem and then see if you can reproduce it in a local build.
<psusi> oh yes, it is definately a real problem... system monitor shows 500 out of 1000 megs used on a freshly booted desktop
<psusi> heck, clock-applet uses 111 megs of ram
<psusi> that's insane
<psusi> I looked at the pmaps and it's largely due to around 80 1 MB maps that should be rather small
<psusi> but the objdump output of the libs in question show they have a 2**20 alignment requirement... which should not be
<mjg59> psusi: If you apt-get source one of the libraries, dpkg-buildpackage it and install that deb, does it show the same problem?
<psusi> dunno.... I'll have to try that tonight
<Diziet> Wahey, another of my giant 3-way diffs has finished.
<psusi> take a look at this: http://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=18560
<psusi> as well as my post to the devel mailing list titled "Strange memory maps wasting ram"
<psusi> I posted the output of pmap and objdump
<Diziet> psusi: Yes, we've seen.  To diagnose and fix it, you need to reproduce the problem in your local environment (ie, rebuild the package) and investigate what the toolchain is doing.
<psusi> heh... well, I'll give it a try I guess... but right now I don't really know how to do that exactly
<Diziet> Um, see what mjg59 wrote up ^ there.
<Diziet> When you've got it building you'll be able to see what command-line options the build process uses.
<psusi> ok... I'll see if I can figure it out tonight
<Diziet> Maybe you'll spot something.
<psusi> I have a hunch that it's going to be something to do with a specs file or something burried deep like that
<Diziet> If not, try adding -v to the final link line.
<Diziet> Right.
<Diziet> That's OK, the -v will show you what the specs file makes it do.
<psusi> ahhh
<psusi> now I just have to figure out specs files and how one would set alignment requirements ;)
<Diziet> It won't tell you how to fix the specs file if that's what's wrong but you'll be able to repeat the actual link rune that the compiler driver invented, with various options etc.
<psusi> yea... there's probably some directive in the specs file that sets the alignment and it's just wrong in the current toolchain
<psusi> I'll start looking at the specs file when I get home
<spayne> jdub: i've redone my hackergochi - can i resend it over and what size is best?
* ivoks gave up on planet :)
<spayne> ivoks: what do you mean?
<ivoks> spayne: it's a joke
<spayne> ivoks: i am looking forward to being on p.u.c - my blog might get read :)
<ivoks> :)
<spayne> ivoks: but my hackergochi was shit so i just done another
* spayne is in jdub's hands
<ivoks> bye
<mdke> argh \sh_away's weekly blog attack
<Nafallo> huh? :-)
<mdke> Nafallo, each week \sh's blog attacks planet with ferocity and without mercy
<Nafallo> it does?
<mdke> sure
<mdke> look
<Nafallo> those are old things.
<mdke> yes
<Nafallo> I don't get them since I use liferea normally ;-)
<mdke> ah
<mdke> each week the old things get bumped to the top of planet
<mdke> being as how he's a time lord and all
<Nafallo> hehe
<Nafallo> we have to get slomo in. I think he was about to switch to the same blogengine ;-)
<Nafallo> or was it tseng...
<ogra> hey mdz :)
<sivang> nice to seel everyone appear back on IRC :-)
* spayne hopes he will make it onto the planet
<mdke> spayne, you'll have to wait a while, elmo needs to do a sync and he is busy, i have been bugging him about it too
<spayne> mdke: sync?
<mdke> in the meantime there is plenty of work to do :)
<Kamion> mdz: have you prepared anything for the talk first thing Sunday morning?
<mdz> Kamion: that's what Saturday evening is for
<Kamion> heh
<ogra> grumble .... the hostel blocks port 25
<spayne> mdke: i'm gonna finished iFolder HOWTOs and work on my IntroductionUbuntuPackaging to keep my mind off it
<Kamion> I get in at 7:25pm on Saturday, and presumably it'll take a couple of hours to get to the hotel
<Kamion> so if you're happy to sprint through it in a couple of hours, that's fine ;)
<ogra> Kamion, a couple of hours ??
<mdke> spayne, gah, there is already material on packaging
<mdke> spayne, please read WikiGuide
* spayne feels left out
<spayne> mdke: dholbach suggested it
<Kamion> ogra: are you saying that's an underestimate or an overestimate?
<spayne> mdke: as there is no uptodate stuff
<ogra> Kamion, over :)
<spayne> mdke: \sh's is good but out of date
<spayne> mdke: so i'm gonna do a new one based around Dapper
<mdz> Kamion: depending on how the next few days go, maybe I'll have time to get some bullet points down
<Kamion> ogra: I always overestimate the time required to deal with transport, if I possibly can; airports usually don't disappoint me on that
<mdke> spayne, please improve old guides rather than writing new ones
<mdz> Kamion: of course, if you'd like to do the outline and send it to me...
<Kamion> mdz: I'll have a think about it on the plane, then
<mdz> we can do an iteration or two before you arrive
<Kamion> mdz: unlikely, given it's nearly the end of today and I'm off tomorrow
<ogra> Kamion, it took me about 45min to get to the city center yesterday .... (admittinly i took a taxi which might be faster than bus)
<mdz> I'm knee-deep in prep right now
<Kamion> yeah, understood
<mdz> in fact I shouldn't be here ;-)
* mdz waves
<ogra> Kamion, you know the rule how to get through customs very fast ? just declare something... they always wave me through after havin seen this single declared piece :)
* Kinnison eats "Saucy BBQ flavour" mini-cheddars and is reminded inexorably of the pretzels you get given on planes
<Kinnison> ogra: that's my trick
* Kinnison uses his inhalers
<Kinnison> (to get through customs)
<ogra> hehe
* Kinnison did it in australia and got through in about 2 minutes
<ogra> i have my AP with me... i declared it as commercial piece for a presentation :)
<Kinnison> heh
<ogra> everybody else on this plane had to unpack *everything*
<Kinnison> hehe
<Lathiat> ogra: really?
<Lathiat> interesting
<ogra> yup
<Nafallo> ogra: did they find any terrorists then? ;-)
<Lathiat> do airports really make you unpack everything often?
<Lathiat> i've never flown international
<Lathiat> interstate its pretty lax
<ogra> hehe, nope... but some sexual explicit books under the pants of the girl in front of me ...
<Lathiat> they dont like it when you pile two laptops on top of each other and throw it thorugh the xray tho
<Lathiat> ogra: haha
<Nafallo> hihi
<ogra> i hardly couldnt avoid laughing when the officer asked "oh you read *this* ?" with eyes big like sucers
<ogra> *saucers
* Nafallo tried to get his knife throw when flying national. told them it belonged to the uniform ;-).
<Nafallo> through even
<Nafallo> didn't work :-P
<ogra> why the heck do all hostels in the world seem to block port 25 ? GRRRR
<Nafallo> ogra: because of spam? :-)
<ogra> Nafallo, everything else is open :(
<Nafallo> yepp
<Nafallo> even smb?
<ogra> heh, didnt try :)
<ogra> but i'd guess so
<Nafallo> my isp told me they had closed 25 137-139 445 :-P
<Nafallo> they haven't though ;-)
<zyga> can I still add my spec for discussion at UBZ?
<Nafallo> ehm, I've changed my nickserv password?
<ogra> Nafallo, cloaking ? 
<Nafallo> trying to, seems I've changed my password :-/
<Seveas> you were logged in with cloak 2 minutes ago Nafallo 
<Nafallo> Seveas: wrong cloak no?
<Seveas> NickServ-           Last Seen: 2 minutes 42 seconds ago
<Seveas> -NickServ-   Last Seen Address: n=nafallo@ubuntu/member/nafallo
<Nafallo> hmm, odd
<Nafallo> password is back! :-)
<mdke> Treenaks, Seveas ping?
<Treenaks> mdke: pong
<Seveas> mdke, pong
<mdke> yo
<Treenaks> what up?
<Treenaks> ;)
<mdke> just out of interest, when is that dutch translation weekend thing happening?
<Seveas> 19/20 nov.
<Treenaks> mdke: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DutchTeamSpurt :)
<Seveas> Treenaks, he can't read that :)
<Treenaks> Seveas: babelfish can try ;)
* mdke brushes up on his dutch
<Treenaks> Seveas: and you still haven't put your pic on there :)
<Seveas> (and the date is not even on that page...)
<mdke> ok thanks
<mdke> sure the date is there
<Seveas> s/is/was/
<Seveas> been a while since i looked apparently
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> maybe the starterguide translation will be finished by then anyhows
* lamont grumbles at network-manager
<Nafallo> lamont: oh?
* Nafallo runs j^'s version ;-)
<lamont> well, mostly looking for someone clueful to help a buddy out with it...
<Nafallo> works :-)
<lamont> network-manager/dbus/etc interactions/flow seems to be the question he has.. 
<Nafallo> running breezys version?
<lamont> yeah
<lamont> if you're in a mood to poke jbrett either in /msg or #ubuntu, 'twould be nice
<Nafallo> I really don't know much about it except the version from j^'s repo actually works :-P
<Nafallo> atleast here
<lamont> ah, ok
<\sh> Seveas: u already set up the cloaks?
<Nafallo> \sh: looks like it :-)
<jbrett> lamont, Nafallo: I'm just trying to grok NM * dhcdbd enough to figure out how to hook it :)
* jbrett had some nice dhclient-exit-hooks that used to work, but are no longer called under NM control.
<Nafallo> I fear the internal structure ;-).
<jbrett> lol
<\sh> Nafallo: yeah
<Nafallo> \sh: hehe, /\ :-P
<ogra> mvo HEY !
<mvo> hey ogra 
<Kinnison> ciao all
<Nafallo> jbrett: j^ should now everything about NM by now :-)
<spayne> aloha
<zyga> any glib/gtk upstreams around here?
<ajmitch> morning all
<spayne> hey ajmitch 
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<ogra> godd afternoon ajmitch 
<spayne> whiprush: ping
<spayne> hey ogra 
<\sh> ajmitch: ETA to take off?
<spayne> when UBZ starts, will IRC be very busy or very quiet?
<ajmitch> \sh: about 2 & 1/2 hours till I go to the airport
<Amaranth> quiet
<spayne> doesn't it start on Sunday :)
<spayne> Amaranth: :(
<Amaranth> anyone know why python-libxml2 is in universe while python2.4-libxml2 is in main?
<spayne> Amaranth: just a guess but is python-libxml2 for an older version of python?
<Amaranth> nope
<spayne> Amaranth: same package?
<Amaranth> it's just a package that depends on whatever the latest pythonX.X-libxml2 is
<Amaranth> built from the same source package
<spayne> Amaranth: that is werid, they should either be one or the other
<Amaranth> should both be in main
<ivoks> \sh: when do you leave?
<\sh> ivoks: saturday 7:30 i'll go to cologne airport
<ivoks> :)
<ivoks> \sh: nervous? :))
<whiprush> spayne: yo
<\sh> ivoks: only during takeoffs and landings
<\sh> ivoks: the rest will be tomatoe-juice and beer ;-) and watching hopefully some movies 
<ivoks> \sh: you like kde, right?
<ivoks> \sh: what do you say about http://baghira.sourceforge.net/OS_Clone-en.shtml ? :)
<Amaranth> down with planet \sh!
<\sh> ivoks: it's baghira :) i don't like baghira ;)
<ivoks> :)
<\sh> Amaranth: IT'S NOT MY FAULT !
* ajmitch can't wait for planet to be flooded with UBZ photos ;)
<\sh> jdub: please have a look on "planetplus" and forget about planetplanet ,-)
<\sh> jdub: it's python but has a database backend for storing the posts..which makes sense and works somehow or use s9y planet plugin
<ajmitch> we should move beyond planets & go for the universe
<ivoks> jdub: and please, please add my blog too :)
<spayne> jdub: don't forget lil' seb as well :)
<\sh> oh god...I just made a change only to have this stupid python-sip4/qt3/kde3 stuff under ubuntuX control
<Amaranth> \sh: your blog engine likes changing timestamps or something
<\sh> Amaranth: it's not doing this
<ajmitch> \sh: you can get the changes dropped if needed
<\sh> Amaranth: there is no way to change timestamps in a db record without manual interaction of GOD^Wme
<spayne> ajmitch: are you off to UBZ?
<ajmitch> spayne: soon, don't be so impatient to get rid of me :)
<ogra> Amaranth, planet has a bug there for ages ... dont you remember makos blog owning the planet several times ?
<\sh> ajmitch: no...the problem is, that I don't want to have it synced at any time from debian...because python-qt stuff is pain in da ass
<spayne> ajmitch: lol - just wondering
<ajmitch> spayne: my flight is in 3 hours to auckland
<ajmitch> domestic, so I don't need to check in very early
<ogra> Amaranth, its planet with certain blogs... not the blog itself
<spayne> ajmitch: i want to see photos to pretend i am there :)
* spayne has never been futher than Hungary
<ajmitch> oh I'll take photos, I think
<spayne> ajmitch: woo!
<Amaranth> now i'm just confused
* ajmitch hasn't been further then australia :P
<Amaranth> for some reason if i don't have /usr/bin/smeg _and_ /usr/share/applications/smeg.desktop gnome-panel will launch gmenu-simple-editor
<\sh> Amaranth: planet has a bug, not my blog...
<spayne> \sh: how does s9y compare to WordPress?
<\sh> spayne: well...both are written in PHP...
<ajmitch> hm, my suitcase seems rather empty
<\sh> spayne: that's all...the rest are all differences...e.g. captchas included, without recodeing php-pages...everything is done via plugins, which are installed directly from the net...etc. for me better then WP 
<\sh> spayne: I tested most of the blog software..and I like s9y
<ogra> Amaranth, thats expected .... if smeg isnt there, the panel shall fall back to the biltin editor
<spayne> ajmitch: just shove some underpants, shoes and beer
<spayne> ajmitch: you can survive with that ;)
<Amaranth> ogra: But I'm replacing smeg with alacarte and if I only have one or the other (via symlink) I get gmenu-simple-editor, I need both.
<spayne> alacarte?
<Amaranth> smeg 0.8
<Amaranth> new name
<spayne> woo!, any new stuff Amaranth 
<Amaranth> tons
* spayne googles it
<Amaranth> ha
<ogra> Amaranth, why dont you keep the name for the desktop file then ? 
<Amaranth> ogra: *shrug*
<Amaranth> ogra: i'm just using dh_link
<pef_aw> bye !
* Amaranth uploads to his site
<Amaranth> i'm going to wait for seb before i get it into dapper
<spayne> Amaranth: it looks sweet
<Amaranth> don't install yet :P
<Amaranth> i'm not moving off of 0.8-0ubuntu1 until it's in the repos so you won't know if i've uploaded the fixed one or not
<Amaranth> done
<Amaranth> heh, good timing
<Amaranth> ack
<Amaranth> you can do it! don't let go! ;)
<mvo> hey seb128 
<Amaranth> spayne: http://dev.realistanew.com/alacarte/releases/0.8/
<ogra> seb128, already back from sightseeing ? 
<spayne> Amaranth: i found it
<Nafallo> morning seb128 :-)
<spayne> hey seb128 
<Amaranth> hey seb128 
<ajmitch> morning seb128 
<Amaranth> spayne: redownload, i just uploaded the fixed one
<spayne> will do
<ajmitch> hey pitti :)
<ogra> hey pitti
<Amaranth> hey pitti 
<Nafallo> morning pitti :-)
<Amaranth> heh
<spayne> hey pitti
<pitti> Hi folks
<Amaranth> none of these people are answering
<Amaranth> oh, there we go :D
* pitti feels overwhelmed
<spayne> wow! the conversation here sure is good
<mvo> hey pitti 
<spayne> let's try something
<seb128> hey everybody
<ajmitch> mvo! :)
<pitti> bon jour mvo
<Amaranth> no one say hi
<seb128> pitti, it's one single word
<spayne> hey all!
<ajmitch> ok, I'd better get ready so that I can get to the airport
<spayne> Amaranth: i saw that :)
<spayne> hey fabbione 
<spayne> let's go again
<Nafallo> morning fabbione :-)
<spayne> did someone just kick me?
<pitti> seb128: je suis desolet :)
<seb128> it's today "hi day" or something?
<seb128> pitti, "dsol"
<ogra> seb128, this multilang city is odd .... i end up mixing english and french 
<spayne> no one said hi to me seb128 
<spayne> :(
<Amaranth> seb128: don't suppose you could look at my alacarte pacakge? it fully replaces the smeg one, gnome-panel launches it instead of smeg, etc http://dev.realistanew.com/alacarte/releases/0.8/deb-src/
<ajmitch> seb128: preparations for Love Day
<fabbione> to
<fabbione> yo
<fabbione> Nafallo: morning?
<fabbione> it's afternoon here
<spayne> it's evening here
<ogra> hey fabbione 
<Nafallo> fabbione: it's always morning somewhere :-)
<ajmitch> Nafallo: it's morning here, so that's ok
<fabbione> hey ogra
<seb128> Amaranth, what is "alacarte", you did rename smeg or that's another project?
<Amaranth> seb128: rename
<Nafallo> it's 20:41 here, and I'm dead tired :-P
<spayne> seb128: it's a rename
<ogra> fabbione, seen something from the city ? 
<ajmitch> Nafallo: it's 7:40AM here & I'm dead tired ;)
<fabbione> ogra: yeah.. i just come back to relax
<Amaranth> seb128: massively better UI, new name, and translations :)
<Nafallo> ajmitch: lol. you will have a good day then ;-)
<ogra> heh
<ajmitch> oh yes
<ajmitch> I'll be in the airport until ~8pm tonight after my flight up north
<ajmitch> terribly exciting
<ajmitch> and they don't have wifi :P
<seb128> Amaranth, you did that in 2 days?
<seb128> Amaranth, is there some l10n?
<Amaranth> seb128: it's been about 6 months since 0.7.5
<Amaranth> seb128: yeah, it's got a half dozen or so translations with it already
<seb128> Amaranth, I pinged  you like 10 days ago, you said you trashed everything with your hdd and had no linux box no ... or I mix with somebody else?
<Amaranth> seb128: It was a bit longer than that but I already had it half done then.
<Amaranth> seb128: My HD died and my linux box has no internet access.
<Amaranth> (HD died when I had it almost done, was already halfway through rewriting it)
<spayne> Amaranth: are you Travis?
<Amaranth> ack, crap
<Amaranth> yep
<Amaranth> seb128: one problem with that package, it installs two menu entries
<Amaranth> let me make a new one real quick
<spayne> are things broken in Dapper atm?
<seb128> Amaranth, just weird that some weeks ago you said there was almost no changes because you trashed them and can't work on it, and now you say that youhave change for 6 months
<seb128> ie: we could have use that for 5.10
<zyga> spayne: not yet
<zyga> seb128: do you have a moment
<seb128> zyga, sure
<Amaranth> seb128: I had it almost done before 5.10, then my HD died.
<Amaranth> seb128: Then I started over and about a month later I have this.
* spayne wonders whether he should dist-upgrade his laptop to dapper.....
<zyga> seb128: in #u-translators we are trying to squash a rather pesky bug
<Amaranth> seb128: Although when you pinged me about it last time I had a bad superblock on /home that I thought took all my work with it again.
<zyga> seb128: the long story short: many gui translations are broken and display with their context prefix like |Some|Context|The real message
<zyga> seb128: we've patched glib to always strip the context (Q_ aka g_strip_context) 
<zyga> seb128: but it persists in some obscure locations like in keyboard accelerators for nautilus
<zyga> seb128: we've checked that the relevant message is translated with preloadable_libintl.so
<zyga> seb128: and are just plain out of ideas now
<spayne> brb
<Amaranth> ugh, nautilus froze
* Amaranth kicks this slow thing
<\sh> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/27/redhat_customer_control/
<Amaranth> seb128: fixed package uploaded
<Amaranth> seb128: passes lintian and linda with no warnings are errors and all that jazz
<\sh> I don't believe matthew szulik ever said that
<\sh> "The desktop has become a lot like teenage sex: a lot of people are talking about it but not many people are doing it," Szulik said.
<\sh> wuah
<ajmitch> haha
<\sh> [ ]  Szulik has a clue
<\sh> I told Matthew, that the Desktop is the "Upcoming Market of Linux"...but his attitude was "Hey, guy, You're a geek, I'm the sales guy"
<ajmitch> sad
<\sh> that was 2001
<ajmitch> ubuntu has shown that there's a demand 
<\sh> yeah
<ogra> the demand was there long before... ubuntu has proven that we can satisfy it :)
<\sh> I just wrote an open letter to matthew ;)
<ajmitch> on your blog? :)
<\sh> ajmitch: sure :) 
* ajmitch goes to read
<ajmitch> ahh....
* ajmitch should know to turn sound down when visiting \sh's blog
<\sh> hahahaha
<infinity> elmo / mdz / kamion : Whoever gets there first, libkpathsea4 needs to be bumped to main (tetex-bin depends on it)... libkpathsea4-dev probably wants to move too, but if nothing build-deps on it, we can seed it explicitely.
<pitti> infinity: didn't ask Frank to *not* b-dep on it anytime soon? Well, that was probably just to avoid another transition in Debian
<pitti> infinity: s/ask Frank/Frank ask/
<infinity> pitti : Yeah, it's bound to happen eventually anyway.  But if nothing build-deps on it to have germinate pull it in, I'll just seed it.  No big deal.
<carstenh> hi pitti 
<pitti> Hi carstenh 
* spayne goes to read \sh's letter
* spayne has just found music on \sh's blog
<spayne> we had a funny conv. last year at school whever BadgerBadgerBadger was all the rage
<spayne> Sir, want to see something funny?
<spayne> No, get on your with work (he is cockney)
<spayne> Come on sir, this is very good
<spayne> I don't want to see pissing badgers humping the ground - get on with your work
<Amaranth> seb128: ping?
<spayne> true story :)
<Treenaks> spayne: mushroom, mushroom?
<spayne> ah! snake ah! snake
<spayne> \sh: i totally agree with your post
<seb128> Amaranth, pong
<\sh> spayne: which one? the latest, or the badger one? ,-)
<azeem> \sh: do you imply that RedHat is not working hard on GNOME?
<Amaranth> seb128: did you take a look at the package? it's all fixed up now
<spayne> \sh: the last one :)
<Amaranth> seb128: http://dev.realistanew.com/alacarte/releases/0.8/deb-src/
<seb128> Amaranth, I'm trying to catch up with mails and stuff with my laptop from an hotel room atm, so please be patient
<\sh> azeem: no..I know that some good people at RH are working hard at gnome..but the board never knew about the "need of an integrated desktop environment"...and matthew is one of them..and he never listend to the people
<Amaranth> seb128: ok, that's fine. just making sure you knew i updated it
<seb128> Amaranth, thanks
* spayne never knew sabdfl had a plane
<Amaranth> how could he not?
<spayne> Amaranth: good point
<\sh> spayne: canonical one ;)
<spayne> \sh: most companies give a company car but sabdfl gives all Canonical stuff a plane each ;)
<spayne> \sh: lol - it works on so many levels
<\sh> spayne: well...he earned it...and what he did before his flight to space..was good...so he appreciate the plane...
<spayne> \sh: i agree that MS deserves everything he has
<xhaker> Hi
<highvoltage> spayne: shew, for a moment there i thought you were refering to the other ms.
<spayne> highvoltage: hell no :)
<spayne> that is M$
<Treenaks> Mwho?
<spayne> M$ = Microsoft
<spayne> MS = Mark Shuttleworth
<Treenaks> spayne: no, sabdfl = mark ;)
<spayne> Treenaks: no, Mark Shuttleworth = Mark Shuttleworth ;)
<seb128> Amaranth, why to mv the desktop file to smeg.desktop?
<seb128> Amaranth, it's smeg renamed? Why not using the current smeg package?
<Amaranth> seb128: i don't understand
<Amaranth> i do the mv to make gnome-panel happy
<seb128> don't understand what?
<Amaranth> why i would want to use the current smeg package
<seb128> the correct way is to update the gnome-panel patch
<seb128> because that's the same app?
<Amaranth> i'm trying to get away from that name
<seb128> sure, but that don't need you need to make a package from scratch
<Amaranth> you mean i should keep the changelog?
<Amaranth> i didn't, really
<seb128> just edit debian/changelog, debian/control
<seb128> yep
<seb128> and you should ship the manpage upstream
<seb128> rather than from debian/
<Amaranth> i don't know how :)
<seb128> ah ah
<Amaranth> i just took that from a debian package of 0.5
<seb128> Build-Depends stuff on @cdbs@ is considered as evil
<seb128> better to not use it
<Amaranth> yeah, i noticed it put build-essential in there
<Amaranth> seb128: also, i mv to smeg.desktop to keep it working on breezy
<Amaranth> for breezy users that get it manually and for backports when they come
<seb128> still not right
<seb128> you should not give wrongs name to current package because of backports
<\sh> Amaranth: cdbs put what? build-essential?
<Amaranth> \sh: yeah, i think so
<\sh> Amaranth: hmmm..I wonder who broke cdbs ;)
<seb128> I tend to blame jbailey :)
* seb128 runs
<Amaranth> yippee, already my first bug
<Amaranth> hide something with gmenu-simple-editor and it doesn't seem to show at all in alacarte anymore
<Amaranth> my answer? Don't do that.
<magnon> oo. we just recieved a godiva catalog :)
<jordi> dfsdf
<pitti> jordi: I love you too :-)
<ajmitch> jordi! :)
<jordi> gracias amigos :)
<pitti> jordi: bonjour, monsieur 
<hughsie> ogra: ping
<hughsie> and ubuntu dbus guys here?
<ogra> hughsie, sorry got no time
<hughsie> ogra: n/p
<Nafallo> hughsie: most guys are in .ca having IRL-fun :-)
<carstenh> ajmitch: ping.  do you think an firewall solution need some kind of interface to zeroconf?
<carstenh> ajmitch: i hope you are the right one for this question :)
<Nafallo> carstenh: Lathiat are avahi upstream :-)
<Nafallo> (I hope he got the hilight now ;-))
<hughsie> Nafallo: okay, thanks. I was just wondering why dbus on ubuntu doesn't honour the at_console permission?
<carstenh> Nafallo: thanks :)
<carstenh> . o O (Sorry, avahi was not found in the database.)
<Nafallo> carstenh: http://www.freedesktop.org/Software/Avahi :-)
<j^> hughsie at_console is a redhat patch
<carstenh> ah, not an acronym :)
<j^> use group="plugdev" should work
<j^> at_console involves patching pam, dbus and other places
<hughsie> j^: ohh right! in dapper there are loads of references to at-console in the hal system.d file
<Nafallo> carstenh: btw, why do we need a firewall on ubuntu? :-)
<j^> hm, in which case i have no clue, is it planned to merge the at_console system for dapper?
<hughsie> j^: not sure, sure makes my work easier with g-p-m if ubuntu do follow suit
<carstenh> Nafallo: Use-case: Harry wishes to share the connection on his computer to the rest of his family. Another use-case: Tom wants to test some php-applications on his local web-browser, but does not want it to be accesed from outside :)
<Nafallo> hughsie: thanx btw. looks great in dapper :-)
<Nafallo> carstenh: case two should be Listen 127.0.0.1, no? :-)
* Nafallo can see the first usecase :-)
<hughsie> Nafallo: thanks! can you get g-p-m to suspend?
<carstenh> Nafallo: tom has no expericene in configuring apache
<Nafallo> hughsie: I have never had proper wakeup, so better not try hardkilling it again :-). hibernate does not work though.
<sivang> carstenh: you might want to add to this a bridging solution :)
* j^ is currently in this usecase: j has to share the wireless network from next door to the other people in the room, using a building and pcmcia wireless card
<Nafallo> carstenh: hehe, oki :-). well, I'm still your tester when you have something :-).
<hughsie> Nafallo: I think the at_console stuff is stopping it working correctly on dapper
<carstenh> sivang: i have no idea what you mean :/
<carstenh> Nafallo: fine :)
<Nafallo> hughsie: works from System -> Shutdown -> Hibernate. am I right I don't need p-m installed anymore?
<sivang> carstenh: ah, well, to enable people to use a machine as a etherent bridge
<carstenh> a bridge is a switch with two ports
<carstenh> sivang: hmm, ok :)
<Nafallo> carstenh: it's just that I feel I don't need it on my clients and some servers :-).
<carstenh> Nafallo: most people won't need it (unless they have some kind of trojan horse)
<robertj^> carstenh: apache is not going to be a 0-config solution for complex things
<carstenh> Nafallo: but the one that need it will be very happy to have a simple gui to configure iptables
<Nafallo> carstenh: I though I read something about a cli aswell? :-)
<carstenh> robertj^: sure, but it works out of the box in some cases :=
<carstenh> Nafallo: not cli, only config-files
<robertj^> carstenh: are you talking about the summer of code firewall?
<carstenh> Nafallo: cli only as interface for other packages that need to add i.e. masquerading
<carstenh> robertj^: right
<hughsie> Nafallo: no, no p-m, but you'll need CVS hal...
<hughsie> Nafallo: whats your mail, and i'll cc you on an email i am writing
<Nafallo> hughsie: nafallo(at)ubuntu.com :-)
<Nafallo> carstenh: ah, oki :-). the usecase here is the non-X server ;-)
<robertj^> one great feature would be to have two entirely different setups for nat and local and then ask users who were acting as the nat gateway which to setup whenever you ran the program
<Nafallo> carstenh: but I'll hook up my laptop on a second ip for testing later :-)
<robertj^> carsten: I guess a tab control would do the same thing though
<carstenh> Nafallo: use vi when you have no X :)
<robertj^> carstenh: and when you have X you use gvim!
<Nafallo> carstenh: I will probably learn to use a decent editor some day indeed ;-)
<Nafallo> now I use nano :-P
<carstenh> robertj^: i don't think that two predefined configs would make life easier
<Nafallo> hmm, I should write that src:vim bug :-)
<robertj^> carsten: no, just to totally seperate out the policy for the local machine and the policy for the natted boxes
<carstenh> robertj^: that is what fedora does with its security-levels (more or less)
<robertj^> carsten: I like my default policy one way, allowing all
<carstenh> robertj^: yes, it is seperate
<carstenh> robertj^: you are able to create policies for inbound and outbound connections for every interface seperatly if you need to
<robertj^> carstenh: where is the source?
<carstenh> robertj^: and forward only some ports from some interfaces etc.
<carstenh> robertj^: not usable atm
<robertj^> carstenh: cool, but overkill for most users
<robertj^> but then again no average users use a pc as a nat gateway anymore
<carstenh> robertj^: yes, thats why that features are hidden in config-files and an advanced gui mode
<robertj^> I guess really the target person for an easy to use firewall should be an edubuntu lab maintainer
<Nafallo> carstenh: hmm, what about gui from client to servers firewall? ;-)
<carstenh> Nafallo: you mean a gui to configure a remote firewall?
<robertj^> "Use case: John wants an easy way to do basic port forwarding and NAT for his lan." "Solution: go buy a $30 router, you will save that much in electricty within a year"
<Nafallo> carstenh: yea, could be the same gui as for the local computer. but with File -> Connect to computer...  or something :-)
<Nafallo> robertj^: hehe
<carstenh> robertj^: john wants to provide an vpn dial in service, common routers does not support this
<Nafallo> I got tired of my router not being able to do everything I wanted it to do :-)
<Nafallo> WRT54G seems to have changed all that since then though :-P
<spayne> routers seem to spend more time not working than working
<robertj^> Nafallo: my 54g does everything I want and I haven't even used 3rd party firmware yet
<carstenh> WRT54G + linux is too complicated for an avarage user
<Nafallo> spayne: yea, that was a reason to :-)
<spayne> i like my Speedtouch 510
<Nafallo> robertj^: hehe, I had a Netgear ;-)
<spayne> had over a year uptime
<robertj^> I've had some very bad router experiences, but I know current firmware on the 54g produces a very reliable experience
<carstenh> Nafallo: the remote configure feature sounds good, i have to think about how to implement it
<robertj^> also it does very basic QOS which is just enough to put p2p apps in their place
<Nafallo> carstenh: :-)
<carstenh> Nafallo: mounting /etc and tell the gui to use its config files is easy, but too complicated for an average user
<robertj^> one thing that would be really nice to have would be a way to start/stop vino from the command line
<Nafallo> carstenh: indeed. sshd seems to be a port open on most servers... and it's sane and encrypted.
<carstenh>  /etc/init.d/vino start|stop does not work?
<carstenh> Nafallo: so you would suggest scp the config files?
<carstenh> Nafallo: or using sshfs?
<robertj^> carsten: it's launched from gnome's session manager
<Mithrandir> mdz: if you're ok with it, infinity and I have swapped tetex for thunderbird, so I get the TeX stuff (which I use, at least occasionally), while infinity gets thunderbird (which he uses daily), unless you object.
<carstenh> robertj^: hmm
<mdz> Mithrandir: works for me, though you did volunteer for tbird in the first place :-P
<Nafallo> carstenh: scp should work. should be rather easy to implement to, no? :-)
<carstenh> Nafallo: yes,  should be very easy
<Mithrandir> mdz: yes, I used to use it, and that was about a year ago. :-)
<infinity> mdz : That's just cause he's a keener. :)
<mdz> Mithrandir,infinity: note that there are UBZ specs around thunderbir
<Mithrandir> mdz: so you might want to give infinity the "default apps in Thunderbird" spec ( https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/default-applications-thunderbird ), rather than me
<mdz> and not tetex
<mdz> so you will need to rebalance that workload
<Mithrandir> mdz: it's just one spec, isn't it?
<Mithrandir> I could always write up a spec on "how to unfuck TeX"
<infinity> Speaking of.
<Nafallo> Mithrandir: :-)
<Mithrandir> except it's probably just Bugs, Bugs and Bugs and not too much to discuss.
<infinity> mdz : Since we've got your attention, can you take 2 seconds out to promote libkpathsea4 to main? :)
<mdz> Mithrandir: it's one of very few specs that you are responsible for, while infinity has quite a bundle
<infinity> Mithrandir : I suspect there's not much to talk about, just stuff to do.
<Mithrandir> mdz: weren't you going to dump some of the live cd stuff on me?
<infinity> mdz : Mithrandir's rather good at eating through other people's bugs when he's bored, so I'll be sure to unshoulder some of my burden on him if I get swamped.
<mdz> infinity: moved
<infinity> mdz : Thanks.
<Mithrandir> infinity: yeah, I went through a bunch of it today and triaged.  Some of it is "this breaks if you use raw TeX and haven't sacrificed the right chickens.  And yeah, all the docs for this part are in German.  kthxbye"
<mdz> Mithrandir: https://launchpad.net/people/tfheen/+assignedspecs
<mdz> have added you to a few today
<Mithrandir> mdz: give me the One True $PATH spec?
* infinity laughs at that spec title.
<spayne> mdz: hello - can i ask you something?
<spayne> mdz: i am being asked by a friend about MythTV on AMD 64 - what is the situation atm with it?
<cowbud> I created a schema that registers an irc url-handler for xchat how should I go about submitting this to ubuntu xchat for possible inclusion? 
<zyga> cowbud: while I cannot accept that I'll say that for the most of us: cool
<Amaranth> hey, who is making specs in launchpad without making them in the wiki?
<zyga> cowbud: let's also patch the system->prefs->preferred apps to support this
<cowbud> alright ill look in to that 
<zyga> cowbud: file a bug against xchat
<zyga> cowbud: post the patch and maybe ask in #ubuntu-desktop too
<cowbud> alright
<spayne> Amaranth: i edited a spec in the Wiki today for Ubuntu.Mac - did i do wrong?
<zyga> cowbud: since almost everyone is busy at UBZ at the moment dont be discouraged if no one answers
<cowbud> np thanks for the info..
<spayne> zyga: doesn't it start on Sunday?
<zyga> spayne: yes but then again the trip and the hotel is soooo nice ;-)
<Mithrandir> spayne: is there any problem with MythTV and AMD64?
* zyga whishes UBZ is so far away ;/
<spayne> Mithrandir: aparantly, it doesn't install - there is a malone bug
<spayne> Mithrandir: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/mythtv/+bug/3211
#ubuntu-devel 2005-11-02
<mdz> Mithrandir: take a look at the high-priority specs which aren't yet assigned
<mdz> spayne: it doesn't build on amd64 at the moment, but I had it building and working in the past so it should be possible to fix it
<Amaranth> spayne: i didn't look at that one
<mdz> spayne: but I won't have time for it, practically speaking, ever
<spayne> mdz: sorry man :(
<spayne> mdz: i'm too lowly to do it
<spayne> mdz: just a meesly servant to those MOTU masters :)
<mdz> I canceled my cable TV and so my interest in mythtv has waned
<Mithrandir> spayne: I'll see if it's trivially fixable, at least
<spayne> Mithrandir: will you ping me if you find anything?
<Mithrandir> spayne: it should use libavcodec-dev and not the one it ships, at least
<infinity> Mithrandir : Claim LiveCD Performance Improvements, it may fit in with your other livefs-related specs.
<Mithrandir> infinity: I'm subscribed to it, I don't know what else I can do. :-)
<spayne> night all
* robertj^ adds the pie in the sky ideas to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ubuntu%2eMac
<zyga> robertj^: Ubuntu.Mac would... just.... *rock*
<zyga> wow :-)
* zyga goes to sleep, bye
* infinity grumbles about the ongoing VFAT sync/async debate.
<pitti> infinity: indeed the current async behavior of the kernel could be improved, but that's out of scope for us I'm afraid
<tseng> infinity: duck or dragon?
<tseng> infinity: 7 members?
* tseng hides
<Nafallo> duck!
<Nafallo> :-)
<infinity> pitti : Read my followup to 18571.  I don't think it's the async behaviour that needs to be fixed, but rather the sync behaviour.
<infinity> pitti : If sync were atomic at the file level, rather than the block level (which makes far more sense on FAT, since FAT doesn't journal), the problem would be solved, IMO.
<pitti> infinity: hm, but sync is intrinsically evil for flash memory, how this shold be fixed?
<infinity> pitti : No, sync on FAT is evil for flash, not sync in general.
<infinity> pitti : Again, solved if we're atomic at the file level, not the block level (so the FAT gets updates once per file, instead of once per block)
<infinity> pitti : At any rate, I was pretty freaked out earlier today to see my massive file copy to USB flash being done async, so it interests me.  I'm not sure if I have the time to do the above kernel hacking, but that doesn't make the bug any less of a bug. :)
<pitti> infinity: it's not a bug IMHO - if you do proper unmounting, everything is synced eventually
<infinity> pitti : Win32 DOES appear to write to USB flash devices synchronously (the file copy dialog sure blocks for a long time, and when it's done, I can remove the flash and it's working)
<pitti> infinity: and there already is an open bug to display the progress when unounting
<infinity> So, clearly Microsoft has worked around this in their FAT driver.
<pitti> ok, let's continue tomorrow - the guys cry for going to dinner :-)
<infinity> Heh.  Fair enough.
<Nafallo> daniels: you touched vim last, right? :-)
<Nafallo> daniels: hi btw :-)
<daniels> Nafallo: i did the vim merge and added dapper to the list of distributions, yeah
<Nafallo> daniels: so why do we have a gvim.desktop in vim? :-)
<Nafallo> since that is provided by vim-[gnome,gtk] 
<daniels> Nafallo: *shrug*
<Nafallo> daniels: bug? want it reported? :-)
<daniels> Nafallo: um, I dunno.  suddenly showing up in menus?
<Nafallo> daniels: yepp
<Nafallo> nafallo@darkelf:~ $ LANG="C" gvim
<Nafallo> E25: GUI cannot be used: Not enabled at compile time
<Nafallo> that's the result for the command ;-)
<daniels> oh, hrm
<daniels> we've had this problem before
<daniels> Nafallo: which variant did you install?
<daniels> vim-gtk should work afaict
<Nafallo> daniels: I didn't. vim is installed by default :-)
<Nafallo> ubuntu-minimal :-)
<Nafallo> daniels: want a bugreport or fixing it now? :-)
<daniels> Nafallo: i'm looking at it now
<Nafallo> daniels: oki. thanx :-).
<marcin> hi guys
<marcin> I want to create package that contains some rnc schemas 
<marcin> and I wonder if there is some preferred path for these files
<marcin> there is /usr/share/sgml and /usr/share/xml with dtd and xml schemas
<marcin> could someone help me to decide where to install Relax NG schemas?
<bob2> there's no Debian xml schema policy?
<marcin> bob2: RelaxNG schemas are not sgml and also not xml
<marcin> bob2: they are related to xml but not in xml format
<daniels> /usr/share/relaxng seems pretty obvious
<marcin> bob2: so I'm not sure if they suit to /usr/share/xml
<daniels> if they're not xml, don't put them in /usr/share/xml
<marcin> daniels: hmmm in fact there is a lot of files that are not xml in /usr/share/xml actually
<daniels> such as?
<marcin> maybe /usr/share/xml/schema/ and add 'rnc' subdirectory
<marcin> daniels: for example /usr/share/xml/libglade/glade-2.0.dtd
<daniels> that's a DTd
<marcin> daniels: I know what it is
<marcin> daniels: and it's not xml
<marcin> daniels: just like rnc files - they are not in xml format but they are simmilar thing to dtd
<marcin> daniels: www.relaxng.org
<daniels> right, but my point is that DTDs are not actual XML fils, but they're part of the standard, etc, etc
<daniels> if I write an external app and then put my random validation stuff into /usr/share/xml in whatever format, it would seem a bit weird
<marcin> daniels: dtd, xml schema and relaxng are in fact the same thing
<marcin> daniels: just some different ideas - and only xml schema is in xml format
<sbalneav> Evening all
<Unfrgiven> hi all
<Unfrgiven> slomo_: ping?
<Kinnison> ciao all
<Nafallo> Kinnison: gbye :-)
<glick> hi
<glick> hey is there any chance of seeing a frubuntu?  ubuntu with a freebsd kernel?
<daniels> well, debian started a port ages ago and after years of work, hasn't really got anywhere
<daniels> either you need to adjust everything to cope with a bsd libc, or make glibc work fine on fbsd
<daniels> so if you can do it basically on your own and do what debian hasn't managed to do in years, sure
<glick> daniels, wouldnt that just mean compiling everything agains libc?
<crimsun> "just"
<HrdwrBoB> yeah it's easy
<crimsun> that's a huge undertaking
<HrdwrBoB> go and try it now
<dilinger> daniels: i get the impression there's never more than 1 developer working on debian/kfreebsd at a time
<daniels> dilinger: even so, it's been, what, four years? five?
<dilinger> yea
<dilinger> something like that
<glick> well what if SCO should win?
<glick> would be nice to have a freebsd kernel we can just swap in
<HrdwrBoB> yeah that's highly likely to happen
<HrdwrBoB> I'm personally terrified
<crimsun> Duke Nukem Forever will be released to retail first
<glick> you never know
<dilinger> glick: win what?
<glick> dilinger, you know the the case against linux
* daniels pointedly watches the topic slowly drift away from #ubuntu-devel's charter.
<HrdwrBoB> glick: it's against IBM
<HrdwrBoB> and many people do know
<dilinger> it's against IBM and former SCO users
<glick> yeah and if they win everyone using linux will have to purchase licenese
<dilinger> neither group i'm particularly concerned about..
<HrdwrBoB> quick, I better purchase my license quick
<HrdwrBoB> glick: as opposed to getting the offending code out of the linux kernel
<HrdwrBoB> instead of doing that, we can completely change the architecture
<glick> wont the offending code make linux suck again?
<glick> if we took that out?
<daniels> this is now *massively* offtopic -- please take it to #groklaw or #sco or some other appropriate forum.
* lamont-away wonders who Mr Shipit is this week
<schweeb> mako or Kamion or elmo: ping
<robitaille> mako, jdub:   it seems someone subscribed ubuntu-user@ubuntu.org.cn to the ubuntu-user list, and feeding a copy of the list emails back to the list...
<robitaille> s/feeding/is feeding
<robitaille> http://www.ubuntu.org.cn/   anyone can read chinese?  It seems to be a pretty complete site about Ubuntu
<freeflying> robitaille:it's our site for chinese user
<robitaille> freeflying,  ah.  It looks nice, but I can't read any of it :)
<freeflying> because it's for chinese user
<robitaille> freeflying,  so do you know anything about the email address from your site looping emails from the ubuntu-user list back to the list? 
<freeflying> it's a ml plugin of phpbb to do this
<robitaille> freeflying,  maybe you should it.  everyone on the lsit is getting 2 copies of most emails on the list: the original, and a 2nd copy coming from your domain
<robitaille> maybe you should figure out the problem before more people complain
<freeflying> let us solve this
<robitaille> thanks
<freeflying> sorry for this
<nailbiter> daniels: Hi there. :) I believe your 028_loader_speed_hack.diff patch to Debian/Ubuntu xserver-xorg breaks the '-configure' option. Could we discuss this?
<zyga> hello
<daniels> nailbiter: yeah, it does
<daniels> nailbiter: it's been merged upstream and fixed properly there
<bob2> is security.ubuntu.com supposed to be a full ubuntu mirror?
<kamstrup> Have you guys seen this thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=71614 ?
<kamstrup> Might be a cool thing to ship with Dapper Shit-It CDs
<mdke> but the computer is NOT designed for Ubuntu
<daniels> (ship-it)
<mdke> it would be a lie
<mdke> although they are cool
<hunger_> kamstrup: Shit-It CDs?
<kamstrup> hunger: Oops that was a typo
<kamstrup> mdke: It does not have to be *exact* copies of that sticker...
<hunger> kamstrup: I actually guessed that;-)
<mdke> ah
<kamstrup> It could just say "Ubuntu Inside" or something
<mdke> people sell ubuntu stickers here in the UK
<mdke> i'm sure you'll find em on ebay or whatever i your country
<kamstrup> mdke, It's not because I want them (although I do), I just think it would be awesome if ShiP-It Cds came with one of these
<kamstrup> It is good branding, and it it will really give the impression (correctly) that the box contains the power to free your computer permanently
<hunger> kamstrup: Maybe HP copuld add such a sticker to their laptops? They announced the will to support/be supported by ubuntu.
<kamstrup> hunger, Yes, I hope they will. I don't expect to see a "Designed for Windows" sticker on them - that's for sure ;-P
<hunger> kamstrup: I bet they will have those.
<kamstrup> hunger, Ubuntu or MS stickers?
<zyga> is there any vector image of the sticker?
<hunger> kamstrup: Actually I do not mind... I hate stickers anyway and remove all of them.
<zyga> hunger: clueless people enjoy stickers, they reassure them of quality and such
<hunger> kamstrup: Designed for Win. They won't want to frighten away those Nobs.
<kamstrup> zyga, I don't think there is...
<zyga> cannonical could really shine here
<kamstrup> zyga, although he says he has a "high res" - what ever that means-
<hunger> zyga: Wow, I must be really smart then;-)
<zyga> you don't find designed for red hat in any store
<mdke> i think they spend enough money on the CDs already, without shipping free stickers or other stuff
<zyga> hunger: don't get me wrong but most of my friends don't grok computer specs anymore and they look at price first, stickers second
<mdke> personally I think each shipit cd should come with a free can of beer
<zyga> mdke: shipping a sticker template a a .svg could help
<kamstrup> Oh, "Free as in beer"
<zyga> hehehe
<zyga> lol
<zyga> but who would want to drink that british excuse for a beer ;-))
<kamstrup> mdke, I think Ubuntu should ship with the *recipe* for beer
<mdke> the cds don't come from britain
<kamstrup> -- that would be freedom
<zyga> no but really, a .svg for the sticker would *really* rock
<zyga> maybe a paid sticker program too,
<kamstrup> zyga, yes, but who has the printer to print alu stickers?
<zyga> send us $X and we'll send you Y sheets of stickers
<schweeb> kamstrup: there are places that will take a vector image and print stickers
<zyga> kamstrup: at home? no-one but many printing shos do
<hunger> zyga: Actually I do not bother with specs anymore either. I only buy laptops and look for stability there.
<zyga> s/shos/shops/
<schweeb> kamstrup: check out the debian page about stickers... they tell you where to take it
<Mithrandir> kamstrup: my gf is already selling ubuntu t-shirts.  I'll ask her what she thinks about expanding the product line. :-)  We'll have to find a supplier, though.
<hunger> kamstrup: laptops are mostly the same inside anyways... some stupid winmodem, the rest is supported well enough in Linux.
* zyga whines about no corel support in wine and no .cdr support in any FOSS app :/
<kamstrup> everybody: The point was mostly that I think it would rock to have stickers in the Ship-It CDs
<zyga> kamstrup: yes
<kamstrup> whether or not this is too expensive I have no idea about
<zyga> since cannonical probably orders cd in big volumes the cost per cd is small
<Mithrandir> kamstrup: a price of 0.5 USD would be fairly expensive and would double the price of the CD or thereabouts.
<kamstrup> If Dapper will be single CD then perhaps it will be feasible
<zyga> I'd say ordering a huge volume of stickers could be really small
<zyga> (as far as $ are concerned)
<kamstrup> Mithrandir, yeah, I know, but 0.5$ seems like *really* expensive stickers
<zyga> I doubt that cost per sticker is more than 0.02$
<zyga> in volumes of 100K
<kamstrup> zyga, Yes that was also my thought
<kamstrup> but I have no idea about this
<Mithrandir> zyga: I'm not sure, since you'd want it to be durable and such
<Mithrandir> at least http://www.namethatcomputer.com/index.php?page=main quotes it at 0.50USD/ea for quantities of 1k
<zyga> Mithrandir: I'm not talking about low quaility stuff
<zyga> Mithrandir: ordering in volume really cuts the price you know
<Mithrandir> zyga: yes, I know that. :-P
<zyga> bah
<zyga> I'll mail that company and ask about the 100K price tag
<zyga> :-)
<kamstrup> How many Hoary CDs where shipped?
<hunger> Mithandir: The "designed for Win" stickers are not that durable either. Most of my collegues have a blanked out their sticker by now.
<zyga> kamstrup: AFAIR totall CDs shipped were somewhere between 200K and 500K
<zyga> but I might be very wrong, that was long time ago
<robitaille> over 1 millions CD where shipped for Warty
<kamstrup> I just thought I heard 1.000.000 somewhere, but again, I'm clueless
<kamstrup> robitaille, I thought so :)
<Mithrandir> hunger: the newest ones are quite durable.  They've survived me for a year.
<zyga> oh boy :)
<zyga> I'll change that to 1M order
<kamstrup> I expect DapperDrake to ship quite a bit more than Wart :)
<kamstrup> Warty
<robitaille> and the figure of 0.45 EUR per set of CDs has been quoted in the past on a mailing list to produce the CDs (i.,e before shipping cost).  So if your stickers cost 0.5US, that's a huge price tag for small stickers.. 
<Mithrandir> robitaille: produce, pack and prepare for shipping, yes.
<robitaille> by the way there is an Ubuntu Marketing mailing list that may be very appropriate for this type of discussion 
<kamstrup> Should I post to it, or are one you guys going to do it?
<zyga> heh, mail away 
<zyga> I wonder what, if anything, will they reply
<zyga> (I emailed that company someone has post url to)
<nailbiter> daniels: Ah, thanks. :)
<nailbiter> daniels: I've just had a look at an X.org CVS snapshot from upstream, and it looks like they've now introduced an off-by-one bug that causes a segfault when running '-configure'. Can I send you a patch for this?
<daniels> nailbiter: sure :)
<daniels> nailbiter: daniel.stone@ubuntu.com
<kamstrup> Mithrandir, zyga: Mail send to ubuntu-marketing.
<zyga> did he mean 'send' or 'sent'?
<Treenaks> Zend
<Mithrandir> zyga: sent, I guess
<zyga> Mithrandir: yeah I've seen the mail already ;)
<dholbach> "morning"
<Treenaks> 'night dholbach :)
<Treenaks> how's teh canada?
<dholbach> hi Treenaks - you're already there? :)
* dholbach 's not there
<dholbach> ... yet :)
<Treenaks> dholbach: no, my flight leaves in 28 hours
<dholbach> mine in 23
<Treenaks> dholbach: where are you then? Still Germany?
<dholbach> still germany, but at my parents place... it's nearer to the airport and i'll leave my dog here
<Treenaks> poor dog :P
<dholbach> no, not really :)
<zyga> argh :/
<zyga> does anyone around have a scanner?
<koke> hmm, anyone taking the BA0095 flight?
<Treenaks> koke: hm, I think so
<Treenaks> koke: yes
<spayne> mornin' all
* zyga has created #ubuntu-hardware
<fabbione> morning guys
<Mithrandir> hi fabio
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: hey
<Mithrandir> hi Martijn
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: I heard you'll be "behind security" at Schiphol at the same time as me? :)
<Treenaks> (waiting for another flight, but still.. )
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: I've heard so too, yes.
<Mithrandir> elmo: could you please sync rpm 4.4.1-4 from Debian unstable?  Overriding ubuntu changes is ok.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: when will you arrive?
<Mithrandir> fabbione: saturday
<fabbione> Mithrandir: ok
<Mithrandir> plane lands at 1615
<fabbione> Mithrandir: perfect
<Mithrandir> how so?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: it will give you time to come to the hotel and get ready for dinner and drinking session?
<Mithrandir> indeed
<Mithrandir> I'm probably fairly wasted by then, so I might want to make that dinner + short drinking session + bed
<fabbione> my powerbook arrived yesterday at home
<fabbione> *sighs*
* fabbione wants
<hunger> What is the status of adding virtualization technology (xen, etc.) to ubuntu? There was discussion about this for breezy, I can't find a spec for dapper. Was that dropped?
<fabbione> hunger: it has been postponed
<hunger> fabbione: Post dapper?
<fabbione> probably
<hunger> fabbione: Thanks for the info.
<HiddenWolf> shame, xen is the coolest thing ever. :)
<Kinnison> Who here is going to UBZ flying tomorrow on BA95 from LHR->YUL 17:25 -> 19:25 ?
* hunger will try xenophilia xen packages for breezy this WE.
<HiddenWolf> hunger, i'm planning to try out the competition this weekend, (read: civIV)
<Yagisan> fabbione: I've been told you use distcc a lot. I set up a breezy pbuilder with distcc and ccache, but distcc fails to build packages
<Yagisan> fabbione: is breezys distcc broken ?
<fabbione> Yagisan: i used to use distcc...
<fabbione> i don't do it anymore
<hunger> HiddenWolf: Oh, I had not realized that that was a competition to Xen!
<HiddenWolf> hunger, it is in the "coolest thing since sliced bread" catagory. ;)
<fabbione> Yagisan:  and never used within pbuilder becuase it needs a daemon
<hunger> HiddenWolf: I was wondering what all that interest in the Game "Civilisation IV" suddenly came from...
<HiddenWolf> hunger, ;)
<Yagisan> fabbione: daemon runs on another breezy box, but it miscompiles packages that work without it
<hunger> HiddenWolf: Do you have an URL?
<HiddenWolf> hunger, http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationiv/index.html
<hunger> HiddenWolf: Now you got me completly confused.
<HiddenWolf> hunger, relax. :)
<Robot101> any sitewranglers handy?
<Robot101> we'd like a commits list for telepathy but our project hasn't been renamed to the right thing yet :(
<Robot101> infinity: ping :D
<Robot101> wow
<Robot101> this is so not #freedesktop
<Treenaks> not quite :)
* Robot101 tries again
<bob2> haha
<zyga> I need to plot some graphs based on lots of lots of data (1M records) can anyone suggest how to do this easily?
<zyga> python is preferred :)
<zyga> I need histograms first
<tseng> rrdtool is cool
<zyga> tseng: no, no round robin 
<zyga> tseng: I need *all* data and it's static
<drbyte> bob2: your wishes, are coming very true
<bob2> bwahaha
<drbyte> influence didn't work immediately, but hey... ;-)
<bob2> it's a delayed reaction
<drbyte> clearly. let me start a new year, anew
<drbyte> ~2 months an counting to 1/1/2006
* zyga has interesting statistics of firefox's memory usage :)
<bob2> hahahahaha
<Treenaks> everyone in Canada yet? :)
<Simira> not everyone ;p
<Simira> but speaking of it... anyone else taking the 2.20pm plane from Schiphol tomorrow?
<Treenaks> Simira: Mithrandir ;)
<Simira> Treenaks : oh, thanks for telling me! I'll try to arrange a meet-up with him, then
<Treenaks> Simira: :P
<infinity> Robot101 : pong.
<jbailey> pitti: ayt?
<pitti> Hi jbailey 
<jbailey> g'm, Martin. =)
<jbailey> pitti: When you do security updates, do you base your package off of updates in DISTRO-updates, or DISTRO?
<pitti> jbailey: both actually
<pitti> jbailey: we have to fix stuff for people that use -updates, and for people that don't
<jbailey> Ah, cool.  Is there a security repo for -updates, or do you just do an upload there as well?
<pitti> jbailey: yes, the latter
<seb128> hey jbailey 
<pitti> jbailey: well, if the patch in -updates was really, really small, I included it into -security and obsoleted -updates
<jbailey> 'k.  Hmm.  So every upload to -updates winds up incurring an extra security penalty.
<pitti> jbailey: so that we don't need to care for two versions any longer
<pitti> jbailey: right
<jbailey> I think I have one of those really really small updates for shorewall in 5.04 =)
<jdub> GOOD MORNING FREEDOM LOVERS!
<dholbach> hey jdub 
<jbailey> seb128: g'm sb
<jbailey> jdub: Have you arrived yet? =)
<jdub> jbailey: yeah, got in last night
<jbailey> jdub: If we're going to mud wrestle over the name, we need to do it before all the mud pits freeze over. =)
<pitti> hi jdub
<jdub> yo!
<Seveas> hey jdub 
<jdub> Seveas: hrm, Treenaks just gave me a preview of some of the outtakes. holy shit, i was being crazy mans that night! ;)
<Seveas> jdub, to say it mildly... :)
<Treenaks> jdub: GHOSTS
<Treenaks> jdub: I also created another one after I sent the link
<Treenaks> jdub: I'll take the entire video to Montreal with me :)
<Mez> anyone in montreal yet ?
<Treenaks> Mez: lots of them
<Mez> ooh
<Mez> I dont arrive till tomorrowe
<Treenaks> Mez: me too
<Mez> oh, you're coming?
<Mez> I might cancel my flight then :P
<Treenaks> Mez: hey, thanks.
<dholbach> Mez: ...
<Mez> Treenaks, I'm just kidding :P
<Treenaks> dholbach: How much fun is it there, on a scale from 1-10?
<Treenaks> Mez: I know :)
<dholbach> Treenaks: below zero
<Mez> dsholbach, you're there I take it then
<Simira> dholbach : already there as well?
<dholbach> not yet
<Treenaks> dholbach: then it must be cool!
<dholbach> tomorrow 12 CA time
* dholbach looks forward to it already :)
<Simira> dholbach : oh, a few hours before us, then
<Mez> who's flying from the UK?
<dholbach> Simira: yeah :)
<Treenaks> Mez: through the UK
<Treenaks> Mez: on BA00095
* Simira is kind of bouncy, and have not even started packing...
<dholbach> haha :)
<Treenaks> Mez: (come in on BA0435 leave on BA0095)
<Mez> through heathrow?
<Treenaks> Mez: yes
<Mez> what time does it leave heathrow?
<Treenaks> Mez: 17:something
<Treenaks> 17:25
<Mez> sweet
<Mez> thats the flight I'm going out on
<Treenaks> Mez: same flight?
<Treenaks> Mez: koke too
<Mez> koke ?>
* Treenaks points at planet ubuntu; /names
<Mez> dont think I know them
<Treenaks> Mez: I'm in seat 24K
<Treenaks> Mez: and I'm traveling with the guy next to me
<Mez> I dont know what seat i'm in
<Treenaks> (ubuntu-nl guy)
<Treenaks> Mez: you can look it up on the ba.com websit
<Treenaks> e
<Mez> I dont know my reservation number
<Treenaks> Mez: hm
<Mez> unless it's letters
<Treenaks> Mez: for met it's one letter, 2 digits, 3 letters
<Mez> I dont think I got one of those
<Treenaks> it's on my e-ticket
<Mez> I just got an itinerary
<Treenaks> Mez: how did you book?
<Mez> through the guy who books the flights
<Treenaks> ah.. "magic"
<Mez> ...?
<Treenaks> Mez: a black box: You put in a destination, out comes an itinerary :)
<Treenaks> i.e. magic :)
<Mez> yeah, I have ticket numbers ... and stufff
<Mez> I think
<Treenaks> Mez: anyway, I'll be wearing my ubuntu t-shirt
<Mez> I dont know
<Treenaks> Mez: "not hard to miss"
<Mez> lol
<Mez> I really dont know whether I can actually get my flight details
<Mez> I dont have the email on me
<Mez> and my home drive is on a CD
<Mez> so hopefully when I install thunderbird on my laptop, I'll be able to read it
<koke> when do you arrive at LHR?
<Treenaks> koke: 15:10
<Mez> I'm arriving there about 3
<Mez> koke, you flyiung from heathrow?
<koke> madrid-london first
<koke> I think I'll have lunch at heathrow
<koke> I depart from Madrid at ~13
<koke> and there's no food in flight
<Mez> what time you arrive aty heathrow koke?
<koke> 14:35, I'm not sure if it's local time
<Treenaks> koke: yes, it is
<Treenaks> koke: Amsterdam -> Barcelona is 2 hours
<Treenaks> koke: so Madrid -> London could well be 1:30
<koke> 2hrs 20mins
<siretart> anyone else flying tomorrow via Frankfurt/Main?
<Treenaks> siretart: dholbach afaik
<dholbach> yeah 2 hours before siretart 
<Treenaks> DOH
<siretart> dholbach: my flight is at 1400, but I'll be at FFM around 10:30
<Mez> Treenaks, where does it show youre seat number
<dholbach> siretart: oh, then it's 4h, i'll leave at 10:0
<Treenaks> Mez: sidebar right-> request a seat
<Treenaks> Mez: (under "advance information")
<siretart> oh. even better
<Mez> Treenaks, I cant reserve a seat
<\sh> dholbach: when u start? 1200?
<dholbach> 10
<dholbach> 5:12 in trier
<dholbach> *cry*
<\sh> dholbach: to montreal?
<Mez> \sh: you flying through heathrow too ?
<\sh> Mez: no...ffm
<\sh> Mez: together with siretart 
<dholbach> \sh: 5:12 trier, 8 ffm, 10 take off
<Mez> ah, and you'll probably be in the room next to me
<SloMoSnail> infinity, lamont-away: can you please give-back mc on amd64? it failed because of missing libgcj
<\sh> dholbach: ah..4 hours before we're starting :(
<dholbach> *nod*
<Mez> I arrive in montreal at 19:25 local time
<\sh> grmpf...nobody is answering the phone at my bank...
<siretart> \sh: which bank is it?
<\sh> siretart: sparkasse
<\sh> siretart: cologne :(
<\sh> I think they want to fck with me...
<siretart> :(
<infinity> slomo : And it will continue to do so, I suspect.
<\sh> anyways ec-card == maestro card == getting cash in canada as well ;)
<siretart> I hope this works, I also have just a maestro card
<slomo> infinity: that's bad... but ok, i can't do anything for that :/
<\sh> siretart: I got money in ZA...so canada should work as well
<siretart> cool :)
<\sh> but I don't like to wait till monday for the money
<Treenaks> Mez, koke, spacey: We _are_ going to do the badger dance, right? :)
<infinity> slomo : Until gcc-4.0 builds on amd64, I expect you're kinda SOL there.
<spacey> uuuh
<infinity> Oh, crap.  gcc-4.0 is hung up on itself.
<koke> Treenaks: this time I'd rather not to meet the security staff :P
<Treenaks> koke: you did last time? :)
<koke> not really, I passed through x^n security controls
<koke> and get my bags inspected at customs
<Treenaks> hm
<Treenaks> I usually get through unchecked, don't know how strict Canadians are in that respect
<Robot101> why is the "battery charge monitor" applet so shit?
<Robot101> it's completely wrong
<Robot101> robot101@thubuntu:~$ acpi
<Robot101>      Battery 1: discharging, 79%, 01:38:36 remaining
<Robot101> it says I'm on AC power
<dilinger> does anyone here have an x40 or x41?
<Robot101> even when I remove it and re-add it
<Robot101> dilinger: me
<Treenaks> Robot101: how long ago did you unplug?
<Treenaks> Robot101: what does hal say?
<dilinger> Robot101: how's the batery support/life (uh, other than applets being shit, that is :) , and how hot does it get?  is it the sort of thing you can keep on your lap, or should i look at the ultra low voltage 1.1/1.2ghz machines? 
<Robot101> Treenaks: hal says AC is not present, battery 1 is discharging (correct) battery 2 is charging (lie, its not present)
<Treenaks> Robot101: hmm
<Treenaks> Robot101: crappy
<mdke> elmo, any luck with planet?
<elmo> mdke: it's not "luck", baz is broken
<mjg59> Robot101: are you heading up north?
<elmo> mdke: I'm going to get a baz developer to help me with it, but it's not exactly my top priority ATM, I'm afraid
<mdke> elmo, i see, sorry I didn't know that :/ 
<mdke> ok
<mdke> bummero
<Mez> elmo: you're techboard right?
<elmo> mez: no
<Mez> oh... ok :d
<Mez> I can never remember who is :d
<elmo> mez: it's on the wiki
<Mez> other than mdz/sabdfl
<mdke> Mez, see the website
<mdke> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/techboard
<Mez> I would if the browser in this fecking place worked properly (grr)
* dilinger pokes Robot101 
<Mez> does anyone know how I get from heatrow terminal 1 to terminal 4
<Riddell> Mez: shuttle bus
<Riddell> Mez: follow the signs and get on the bus, it's pretty easy
<Mez> Riddell: I'll have to try and find that lol
<Riddell> bus is free
<\sh> Riddell: i thought i cost 14 or 17 CAN$?
<Mez> thats when we get there
<Mez> not within heathrow
<\sh> ah ;)
<Mez> hmm
<Mez> RyanLortie
<Robot101> dilinger: doesn't get overly hot, the fan comes on when necessary. the 4-cell battery it comes with is good for 2-3 hours if you keep the screen turned down
<Mez> if he's not confirmed does that mean I get a room to myself
<Robot101> Mez: you can get a train too, also free
<Robot101> Mez: follow signs for heathrow express
<Robot101> dilinger: if you get the add on battery on the bottom it doubles that, and the 8-cell battery that sticks out the back has twice the capacity of the 4 (surprisingly) so 5 or 6 hours
<Robot101> dilinger: depends on wireless use too, but you can toggle it easily 
<Mez> Robot101... hmm... well I'm getting a train to watford junction - and then probably a bus from there (through virgin)
<Mez> I'll have to find out when i get there
<Mez> hope it doesnt take too long
<Robot101> dilinger: I strongly recommend them, mjg59 too... and he has 10s of laptops and still uses his X40 by preference
<dilinger> Robot101: cool, thanks
<Robot101> dilinger: everything is supported properly with free software, except the modem and the SD slot
<dilinger> a coworker's trying to convince me to get a powerbook; but i've had one, they're heavy and hot
<HrdwrBoB> X40 FTW
<dilinger> Robot101: really?  even the wireless?
<Robot101> and they have broadcom wireless and ATI 3d
<koke> Mez: https://www.britishairways.com/cms/global/images/content/main/150by120/lhr_dom1_int4_cnx.gif
<Robot101> dilinger: ipw2200 in new ones
<mdke> Mez, watford junction to heathrow is probably about 40 minutes or so
<Robot101> dilinger: X40 has longer battery life than X41 due to slower CPU and memory
<mdke> bit more for terminal 4
<HrdwrBoB> I have a cisco aironet 250 in mine
<Robot101> Mez: that sounds like a horrific route, where are yo coming from?
<Mez> Birmingham
<Mez> I booked a\ ticket with Virgin to heathrow
<dilinger> Robot101: i'm sold.  thanks
<HrdwrBoB> Robot101: no ati
<HrdwrBoB> Robot101: that was in X31
<HrdwrBoB> X40 has i855
<HrdwrBoB> still, it works fine
<Robot101> HrdwrBoB: I was talking about the evils of the powerbook
<HrdwrBoB> oh, ah
<Robot101> the IBM is all good with free software, powerbooks are decidedly not
<Robot101> dilinger: and for the size, it's a remarkably usable keyboard
<Robot101> dilinger: and... three mouse buttons! :)
<HrdwrBoB> and no stupid trackpad!
<Robot101> ohh and loads of niceties... the thinklight shines on the keyboard for nighttime hacking, and its software controllable :D
<Robot101> the mute button is in the hardware so you can press it at boot and know that there will be no embarrasing beeps in the conference/lecture/meeting/etc
* mdke hugs his thinkpad
<Mez> gtg
<Robot101> and is stored in nvram so persists across boots
<Robot101> best laptop ever.
<HrdwrBoB> and it's sexy
<mdke> i can recommend the t43, without ati
<Robot101> Treenaks: btw, putting the 2nd battery on made hal realise it wasn't on AC power
<Robot101> Treenaks: sleeping and removing the battery when it was asleep didn't confuse it though
<Robot101> it must be a more complicated situation, like sleeping when on AC power and charging the 2nd battery, and removing one or the other or both
<infinity> dilinger : If you order it with "IBM Wireless", it'll be atheros, if you order it with "Intel Wireless", it'll be ipw2200.  Pick which set of bugs you're more happy with dealing with.
<Robot101> but I'm on the train so no AC power handy :)
* Robot101 changes
<HrdwrBoB> infinity: or you could use cisco like me and have it use eth1 on boot, then eth2 after suspend/resume
<infinity> HrdwrBoB : Neat.
<koke> Treenaks, spacey it's ok to meet at 15:30 at the wetherspoons ?
<koke> http://www.heathrowairport.com/assets/B2CPortal/Static Files/HeathrowT4map.pdf <-- page 3 (25)
<HrdwrBoB> now, nobody look like terrorists.
<Diziet> The requested URL /assets/B2CPortal/StaticFiles/HeathrowT4map.pdf was not found on this server
<Simira> hrmf.. I think one of my mice has run off!
<Simira> alternatively, I put in on it's appropriate place last time i used it...
<Simira> *packing for UBZ*
<koke> Diziet: Static Files
<koke> maybe Static%20Files
<Simira> but I do think the cat ate my usb hub...
<Diziet> Are we really supposed to have that map ?  You know it's information that might be useful to a trrrist.
<carstenh> he could also use maps.google.com
<HrdwrBoB> don't get caught with a laptop which has a pdf of the airport on it
<HWolf> oh my, windows is fun. :)
<pitti> doko: here?
<doko> pitti: pong
<pitti> doko: not that you would/should do it now, but what's the status of the zope update? could you make sense of the patch after the last mail?
<koke> HrdwrBoB: you can get maps of the airport like that in the terminal
<koke> I have one of these at home
<koke> don't be too paranoid :)
<doko> pitti: yes, I do have a patch, which is reduced again. well, on my todo list ...
<HrdwrBoB> koke: haha but at the same time dont' underestimate the cracktastic nature of airport security
<the--dud> hi folks
<the--dud> how's everyone?
<Mithrandir> HiddenWolf: your hidden identity?
<Mithrandir> s/hidden/secret/
<HiddenWolf> Mithrandir, Trying to hide from scary Seveas
<\sh> infinity: amd64 buildd -> he following packages have unmet dependencies: debhelper: Depends: po-debconf but it is not going to be installed
<Simira> Mithrandir : go make dinner!
<infinity> \sh : Yeah, yeah.  New release + lots of syncs = fun.
<\sh> infinity: k...I'm forgetting right now everything until after UBZ ;)
<\sh> ogra: remind me that I have to change my  bank account after I'm back in .de
<ogra> will do :)
<CarlFK> should portmap be running before trying to mount nfs?
<the--dud> I'm gonna hold out a few weeks or a month before I dare switching from hoary to breezy
<bob2> yes
<CarlFK> and, what package provides nfs client/mount support?
<\sh> ogra: I just called this online banking center...and asked where is my bloody money...because others at the same bank have it already..I think they want to fck with me ... 
<CarlFK> I guess nfs client is installed as part of the kernel.  so... if you should have portmapper running, and the ubuntu policy is no open ports, shouln't nfs mounting be removed from the base install?
<nailbiter> CarlFK: The portmapper is needed on the client only to implement stateful locking. Otherwise, you can just mount the NFS filesystem with the 'nolock' option.
<CarlFK> nailbiter - no kidding.  thanks.  ok, I'll stop anksing over nfs deps...  
<spayne> evening all
<Simira> jdub : pling?
<andi5> hiho. 50 bounty for the one telling me where to find "hw-detect-full_1.18ubuntu2_all.udeb". my jigdo complains about not finding it :( any hint? thanks in advance!
<jdub> Simira: plong ;)
<spayne> hey jdub
<Simira> jdub : is Ubuntu Love Day anything interesting for me as a long time Ubuntu-fan-and-contributor? (or: "Can I skip all that stuff and go to the zoo instead?")
<jdub> Simira: yeah, i think it'll be pretty cool
<jdub> Simira: maybe the worshops in the afternoon would be more interesting for you
<Simira> jdub : oh. Thanks. Or something. 
<jdub> Simira: if you're interested in the community/marketing one
<Simira> jdub : yes, I thought so too
<Simira> well, I'll have a look at it. 
<jdub> zoo in the morning, ubuntu marketing in the afternoon? :)
<Simira> or zoo next Sunday, then we can bring some other people as well...
<Simira> I guess more than Mithrandir wants to say hi to the penguins.
<Mithrandir> you'll have a variety of geeks to look at, you're sure you need to go to the zoo?
<Mithrandir> oh yeah, we _have_ to say hi to any penguins.
<jsgotangco> the love day itself would probably be like a zoo
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> because of the various personalities involved
* andi5 raises the bounty to 40 and wonders why nobody seems to care about frustrated potential users :(
<azeem> andi5: what bounty?
<andi5> azeem: well, i am just trying to get a ubuntu iso image with jigdo (need for amd64+i386), but one package is missing (see above)
<azeem> andi5: I think history indicates that Ubuntu really does care about users, including potentionally frustrated ones
<andi5> azeem: then i seem to tend to ask my questions here somehow incorrectly, because i asked this question 5 times before (mostly #ubuntu), but have not heard of anything helping me ;(
<infinity> andi5 : That package got mistakenly moved around in the archive.
<lamont> dvips -o make.ps make.dvi
<lamont> This is dvips(k) 5.95a Copyright 2005 Radical Eye Software (www.radicaleye.com)
<lamont> dvips: ! DVI file can't be opened.
<lamont> bad make
<infinity> andi5 : Though, wait?... What version are you trying to jigdo?... The hw-detect in breezy is much newer than that.
<andi5> infinity: how can i determine that?
<andi5> infinity: Generated on Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:25:40 +0100
<infinity> andi5 : It give you the CD label when it first starts the process.
<infinity> s/give/gives/
<azeem> infinity: it's from ddetect
<azeem> hw-detect-full, that is
<andi5> maybe just Ubuntu 5.10 "Breezy Badger" - Release amd64?
<infinity> azeem : Oh, my mistake.
<andi5> but same problem with i386
<azeem> and it's not on archive, but google cache has it, as well as the various .lits files
<azeem> eh, .list
<infinity> In that case, it probably fell victim to the same accidental move that hwdetect did.
<infinity> Looks "in the archive" to me.  Just (possibly) the wrong component.
<infinity> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/d/ddetect/hw-detect-full_1.18ubuntu2_all.udeb
<andi5> infinity: oh, in the universe... funny :)
<infinity> Kamion : Did hw-detect-full accidentally get shuffled around from one component to another?
<azeem> ah, so the jigdo files list it in main
<andi5> infinity: i did not even think that, so i did not check it :)
<infinity> andi5 : I assume your jigdo log claims it was trying to get it from main?
<andi5> infinity: definitely
<infinity> Alright.  This is a know "oops", though we only knew we'd broken another package (hw-detect)... Makes sense that both got broken at the same time.  <sigh>
<andi5> infinity: so i can change main to universe? can you do that too, please? ;)
<infinity> Kamion : jigdo's looking for it in main, archive has it in universe.
<infinity> andi5 : We'll move the file back where it belongs.
<andi5> infinity: or that way :)
<infinity> andi5 : But to make jigdo happy, you can just download the .deb, toss it in a directory, and tell it to scan that dir.
<andi5> thanks you guys, sorry for becoming frustrated =)
* andi5 sighs
<Kamion> infinity: damnit. fixed, I think. I hate this cross-component symlink stuff
<Kamion> (will propagate to mirrors within a bit over half an hour)
<infinity> Kamion : Did any other installer components jump around when we started syncing? :)
<Kamion> it wasn't a sync thing, it was me trying to arrange for the right things to end up in dapper and inadvertently screwing with breezy
<infinity> Oops.
<Kamion> I'll remove hw-detect-full from dapper instead - it's no longer needed
<andi5> Kamion: lol, then i will remove that pkg right after installation ;)
<Kamion> ok, looks vaguely sane now
<infinity> andi5 : It's not an installed package, it's an installer component.
<Kamion> it's no longer needed IN DAPPER
<Kamion> you need it in breezy
<Kamion> (to make the installer work)
* Kamion wanders off again
<andi5> Kamion: well, so dapper < breezy? sorry; will shut up now
<Kamion> andi5: dapper > breezy
<Kamion> version-wise anyway
<andi5> yes. ack
<Kamion> sorry for the screwup, hope it's fixed now, if not somebody please mail me
<sivang> anybody know what to do with ERROR 2010 on a T43/p think pad ? :) (It suggests something about a fimrware upgrade) 
<infinity> In what context?
<infinity> BIOS/POST, or some kernel driver, or...?
<sivang> infinity: BIOS/POST
<infinity> Oh, it's cause you got the fancy 7200RPM drive.
<sivang> infinity: I can pm you if that ok?
<spayne> has anyone used/tried MoL?
<jpetso> ...ok, now for the newlyswitched ones
<jpetso> i'm trying to compile some autotools stuff that I had compiling on Gentoo before, and it doesn't work yet in Ubuntu
<jpetso> it says (extract):
<jpetso> configure.in: 8: automake requires `AM_PROG_LEX', not `AC_PROG_LEX'
<jpetso> automake: examples/fact/Makefile.am: lex source seen but `AC_DECL_YYTEXT' not in `configure.in'
<jpetso> (end quote)
<zul> jpetso: check google
<jpetso> zul: I just tried
<Simira> how is the best way to get from the airport in Montreal to Holiday Inn?
<Treenaks> Simira: there's a shuttle
<\sh> Simira: there is a shuttle
<Treenaks> :)
<jdub> Simira: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBelowZero
<Treenaks> 1- Take the shuttle to the city center terminal. You can ask the driver for the minibus to the hotels (It's free). The price is $11.50 per person.
<jdub> Simira: make sure you ask for 'holiday inn select'
* Treenaks prints a few things
<\sh> ok...going to bed...
<\sh> cu tomorrow in .ca 
<spayne> hey sabdfl
<sabdfl> howddy
<highvoltage> doko: ogra says you're mr OOo :)
<pitti> flee, doko, flee!
<Simira> sabdfl :) How's Montreal?
<sabdfl> Simira: dunno. i'm in pretoria :-)
<ogra> doko, highvoltage wants to add custom icons to ooo for edubuntu during dapper
<Simira> sabdfl : oh. So you're one of the late ones, eh? Well, we're off from Oslo soon.
<highvoltage> doko: yes, the author of gartoon said he'll draw up some OOo icons for edubuntu.
<sabdfl> Simira: well. i was in montreal yesterday
<sabdfl> and will be there tomorrow morning ;-)
<highvoltage> sabdfl: don't you get tired of flying?
<pitti> sabdfl: the world is your's :-)
<sabdfl> highvoltage: on occasion. i bring a book.
<highvoltage> :)
<Simira> sabdfl : don't you ever feel like staying home for the rest of your life? Wherever that is...
* ogra guesses home is where C1 is :)
<ogra> ...world tramp :)
* highvoltage guesses that home is at the edge of the world, where the dragons be :)
<Simira> C1?
<ogra> Simira, the plane
<Simira> ah, yes
<Simira> mdz : do you do administrative UBZ-things? Or else, who is that?
<mdz> Simira: depends. what is the issue?
<Simira> mdz : I just wonder if there's anywhere I can help out, since I don't have much work to tend to in particularly. Anything I can do that doesn't include obligations after the conference...
<Simira> mdz : or is that a "talk to Silbs"-thing? ;p
<spayne> Canonical 1?
<jdub> spayne: mark's jet
* spayne wonders who will get C2 ;)
<jdub> Simira: just asking jane for you now
<mdz> Simira: are you here in montreal?
<Simira> mdz : nope. Arriving tomorrow at 4.20pm
<jdub> Simira: ok, i asked claire too - she'll think about it for you :)
<jdub> Simira: thanks for offering
<Simira> jdub : ok, thanks. Np, I just like to feel useful :)
<lamont> jdub: you at marks?
<jdub> lamont: i'm in quebecistan!
<lamont> heh
<ogra> lamont, he's locked in the cellar with the others :)
<highvoltage> ogra: extreme programming?
<Simira> jdub : so, is it still BZ?
<ogra> highvoltage, extree scheduling rather
* Treenaks prints some more maps
<TiMiDo> is it posible to used drapper now?
<Simira> Treenaks : when do you land? About 17-something, you said?
<Simira> TiMiDo : not recomendable, no
<TiMiDo> oh ic
<Treenaks> Simira: 19:25
<Treenaks> Simira: takeoff 17:25 from Heathrow
<Simira> right
<Treenaks> Simira: I'm on a flight with koke and Mez (Mev?)
<spayne> Treenaks, it is Mez
<jdub> Simira: it's brisk, but not BZ
<Mithrandir> TiMiDo: it haven't blown up for me yet, but I wouldn't recommend it.
<Simira> jdub : well, I've packed a warm sweather. It should do.
<dredg> come to california :) nice weather :)
<dredg> actually yeah, bring ubz to me :)
<Treenaks> dredg: then it wouldn't be bz anymore, would it
<dredg> details, details
<JanC> california would be a cheap conference, half of the people wouldn't (want to/be allowed to) get there  ;)
<spayne> JanC: i hope it is London next time
<spayne> JanC: then i may stand a chance of going
<Treenaks> spayne: Amsterdam!
<Treenaks> or Berlin
<JanC> Bruges!
<JanC> ;)
* dredg laughs
<Treenaks> JanC: that _village_? :)
<spayne> JanC: but a name for London
<spayne> UGC
<spayne> Ubuntu goes Cocney :)
<JanC> Treenaks: villages are nice (and Bruges was a city before A'dam was)
<dredg> i would have gone to ubz, but it clashes with my training schedule
<Treenaks> dredg: you're a professional wrestler?
<dredg> which is really annoying cos not only do i have to skip ubz, i'm not in ireland for mako's visit
<dredg> Treenaks: not quite...
<Treenaks> Mr Brugesmans ;)
<dredg> actually, hold a conference in ireland :) the weather sucks, it's always raining. it can be ubuntu wet n wild ;)
* highvoltage *cough*
<Treenaks> dredg: how about Ubuntu High & Dry
<tritium> JanC, I've been told that there will be no Ubuntu conferences in the U.S.
<JanC> tritium: that's what I thought too (it wouldn't be very good for the reasons I gave)
<spayne> tritium, why?
<tritium> spayne, I don't fully understand the reasons
<JanC> spayne: legal issues with security software, reverse engineering, privacy, ...
<ogra> jdub, indeed its below zero ...
<ogra> jdub, its the -1 floor
<spayne> JanC: could there be on in jolly old England
<JanC> spayne: Europe is fine AFAIK  :)
<highvoltage> JanC: africa? ;)
<Riddell> spayne: you missed that
<Riddell> launchpad have met in south africa
<JanC> highvoltage: why not?
<spayne> Riddell, did i?
<JanC> except for war zones, I guess  ;-)
<jdub> ogra: it's -1 atm?
<highvoltage> Riddell: i think i remember that. since then there still hasn't been so much people in the pool at work at the same time :)
<spayne> Ubuntu is good shit man!
<jdub> it's like 4 degrees
<jdub> not -1
<jdub> lies
<tritium> 62 F here
<rob^^^> Heya all, can anyone think as to why it wouldn't be good to patch dia to be anti-aliased by default?
<rob^^^> it's a selectable menu option, but it seems like it should default to on
<Keybuk> jdub: 6C according to weatherapp
* Mithrandir packs a pair of shorts, since it's so warm.
<jdub> mine says 4 for montreal-est
<seb128> 5 according to my gweather
<pitti> -5 according to my feet
* HiddenWolf hugs seb128 
<JanC> 16C here in Bruges (and it's already 21h30 now), one starts to think summer is doing an interim job while autumn is away here...
<jbailey> When looking at the temp in gweather, be sure to look at the "Feels like" temperature.
<jbailey> It accounts for humidity and windchill.
<Simira> jbailey : is Toronto far from Montreal?
<tritium> jbailey, humidity is a non-issue here in the desert ;)
<jbailey> Simira: It depends.  I've done that distance of a drive to go for dinner before.
<Simira> jbailey : so, driving in somewhat decent speed, how long?
<jbailey> Simira: Simira 4.5 to 5 hours.
<jbailey> Assuming daytime.
<dieman> its a happy 59F/15C here.
<jbailey> If at night with good music, I've done it in about 4.
<Simira> ok
<jbailey> Simira: If you're looking to see things in the area, I'd honestly not bother with Toronto.  The eastern townships are much cooler small villages, and if you're going to spend all day driving, you can get to the atlantic fishing provinces.
<jbailey> Boston is about the same distance if your'e willing to travel to the US.
<Simira> jbailey : well, I literally AM from one small fishing province in Norway, so I might just skip that :p
<Simira> guess I'll mostly concentrate on Montreal
<sivang> jbailey: any special requirement for entering the US from .ca ?
<tseng> its easy if you are canadian
<dieman> yeah
<tseng> otherwise, good luck
<dieman> dont come if your not a canadian :)
<Mithrandir> Simira: but you know, it will all be mirrored, since it's on the other side of the ocean. :-P
<jbailey> Simira: Ah. =)  There's alot to see in Montral. =)
<dieman> and if you aren't from a visa waiver country, dont bother.
<jbailey> sivang: It's entirely done by country of citizenship
<dieman> if you are, be sure you have a passport and no problem with potential searches
<Simira> jbailey : do your fish swim backwards?
<Mithrandir> they're all left-finned
<dieman> do they do US*VISIT for visa waiver countries now?
<jbailey> Simira: Nah.  I'm vegan, so fish don't feel the need to back away from me slowly ;)
<dieman> yeah, it does
<dieman> sivang: the happy US customs people will also take digital fingerprints and a photo
<dieman> unless your a canadian or a mexican or some other small categories (under 14, over 79)
<dieman> (for age)
<tritium> dieman, where are you living?
<Mithrandir> uhm, they don't fingerprint people over the age of 79?
<dieman> Mithrandir: yeah, i don't quite get it either
<dieman> tritium: im in minneapolis, mn, usa
<tritium> Ah, that's right.
<jbailey> Mithrandir: Sounds like a *great* excuse for fake id. =)
<jbailey> Hey, my LP account grew a little hammer emblem.
<dieman> sivang: left index, right index, and a photo
<Simira> so, if I go to the US, I get my portrait taken? Cool.
<dredg> nah they're using webcams now
<dieman> yeah
<dieman> its like a quickcam
<pitti> jbailey: still missing the sickle?
<jbailey> dredg: Do I have to strip in front of it?
<jbailey> pitti: sickle?
<Keybuk> maybe the TB should get a sickle
<dieman> brazil took my fingerprint and a photo last time i was there
<dieman> china doesn't even bother
<jbailey> pitti: I'm only a member of Ubuntu Core Development Team and Ubuntu Members
<dredg> jbailey: i didn't, and they let me in...
<pitti> jbailey: me too
<Keybuk> jbailey: you should have a hammer and an ubuntu logo then
<dredg> but you do whatever you feel you have to
<pitti> jbailey: oh, I'm not even in members, only in German translators
<Mithrandir> jbailey: I think both of us might have a bit of trouble to pass as < 14 or > 79 years old..
<jbailey> pitti: You have two launchpad accounts, you should merge them.
<jbailey> Mithrandir: Sorry, which both?
<Mithrandir> jbailey: you and me. :-P
<jbailey> Keybuk: Right. =)
<jbailey> Mithrandir: True.  I can still pass for 17, though.
<Mithrandir> jbailey: as in, I don't think getting a fake ID is an option for either of us.
<jbailey> *sigh*
<Mithrandir> jbailey: you can? hhaha.
* dredg can if he shaves
<jbailey> Yeah.  Between shaving, the long hair, and it's worse since getting the blue streeks.
<dieman> hahah
<jbailey> Of course, I don't know how they ignore the silver in my hair, but hey.
<dieman> jbailey is canadian so he doesn't have to do us-visit
<dieman> just those outside of the 53 states :)
<dieman> (well, iraqis do still, but 53 sounds right.)
<dieman> (the other two being mexico and canada <j/k>)
<zul> you need a passport to visit the us soon from canada
<dieman> like 2006 or 2007?
<dieman> i know we need passports to go to parts of the carribean and get back up
<dieman> ok
<dieman> rather
<dieman> going on a cruise next year
<zul> not when we went to the dominican republic
<jbailey> I've tried calling a couple of cruise lines and can't find one that will do vegan food.  So sad.
<dieman> oh god
<dieman> people in visa waiver countries must also have 'machine redable passports'
<dieman> ie: with barcode.
<dredg> yes, yes they must
<dredg> all irish ones issued in the last few years are machine readable
<dieman> anything issued after 10/26/05 must have digital photographs printed on the page or integrated chips
<dredg> new ones are weird though. the back page (machine readable part) is plastic
<dieman> 10/26/06 and on requires biometrics
<dieman> dredg: yeah, ours are like that too
<dieman> (us passports)
<dieman> super-laminated
<Mithrandir> mine is machine-readable, but no barcode.
<Mithrandir> just the field at the bottom of it.
<dredg> Mithrandir: likewise
<dieman> ahh
<dieman> zul: its required for the cruises by jan 1, 2008
<dieman> zul: but not yet
<zul> oh that sucks
<dieman> dec 31 2006 is when its required for all air or sea to/from canada, mexico, central and south america. where us citizens will ahve to have a passport to get back to the usa
<dieman> dec 31 2007 for all land/air/sea trvel
<dieman> it *used* to be by dec 31, 2005
<dieman> for part of it
<Mithrandir> zul: uhm, it sucks that you have to have a passport?  I think requiring passports is fine.
<dieman> requiring passport for re-entry from canada didn't used to be required
<tritium> Mithrandir++
<zul> Mithrandir: when i was kid i lived next to washington state and we can just drive down for the day and come back all you need is a driver license
<Mithrandir> zul: why is a driver's licence so much better than a passport?
<JanC> hm, in Belgium everyone 12yo & up has an ID card that you have to carry with you  :)
<Keybuk> Belgium has the only fully lit motorway network in the world ...
<zul> Mithrandir: convience
<JanC> Keybuk: not fully lit, but large parts are lit yes
<Keybuk> oh, that was the only interesting fact about Belgium I knew
<Keybuk> and it was wrong
<HiddenWolf> Keybuk, they've got the wackyest institutional system in western europe, how about that?
<JanC> well, you can see Belgium from space at night
<Mithrandir> zul: yeah, a passport is _so_ inconvenient. :-P
<JanC> Keybuk: and it was in Belgium that BillG got "entart"  :)
<Keybuk> JanC: but would you want to?
<JanC> Keybuk: want to see it from space?
<zul> Mithrandir: :P
<dredg> for the purposes of controlling the google laser death satellites, seeing things from space is useful
<ivoks> so everybody is in airplane now :)
<zyga> flying at night is no fun
<zyga> but fyling at night over atlantic is uber boring
<ivoks> i was never in any kind of airplane :)
<zyga> ivoks: boring, no network, and the nice laydy brings drinks
<the--dud> UBZ should have been in Norway... even colder than canada
<the--dud> and lots cooler hehe
<ivoks> :)
<ivoks> and closer
<zyga> U100% should be in Poland, free vodka!
<ivoks> ah, well
<ivoks> next time for us who have to pay their education :)
<JaneW> or South Africa - Ubuntu Indaba
<ivoks> JaneW: hello :)
<ivoks> JaneW: you aren't on UBZ?
<zyga> ivoks: what's the education part related to?
<ivoks> zyga: faculty
<ivoks> zyga: 1000euros per year... :/
<JaneW> ivoks: yes I am
<JaneW> hi
<zyga> I have to pay 2750 a year :/
<ivoks> it's not that much, but when you go for summer trip and have plans for snowboarding in france...
<ivoks> JaneW: allready there? :)
<JaneW> ivoks: yes, arrived Wednesday pm
<ivoks> nice
<ivoks> JaneW: i was surprised seeing you here :) didn't think you would come few days eariler
<ivoks> i'm so happy ubuntu-hr.org is doing ok...
<JaneW> we are doing planning and scheduling etc, we had to come early
<ivoks> last 4 days i'm only working on that...
<ivoks> JaneW: right...
<JanC> hm, FOSDEM 2006 will be February 25th & 26th...
<ivoks> where?
<ivoks> brussels
<JanC> FOSDEM is always in Brussels :)
<ivoks> :))
<JanC> Elsene/Ixelles to be exact
<JaneW> ok I am going to attempt to upgrade to breezy - wish me luck!
<ivoks> JaneW: you won't need it :)
<ivoks> JaneW: it will go smoothly
<ivoks> ;)
<JanC> JaneW: everybody here is already waiting to upgrade to dapper!  ;)
<ivoks> i was running dapper for few days :)
<JaneW> JanC: heh I am cautious!
<ivoks> then downgraded back :)
<the--dud> JaneW, let me know how it goes, I'm sort of holding back upgrading hehe
<ivoks> the--dud: you have something fancy? 
<ivoks> i did upgrade on 6 of my servers
<JanC> the--dud: upgrading to breezy won't get any better or worse by waiting
<ivoks> without a problem and downtime
<the--dud> I just remember that the warty->hoary transition got a bit better after a little while
<JanC> I'm running breezy for > 6 months now  :)
* dredg got bitten by the renaming/splitting of the megaraid2 module
<ivoks> urgh... i'm getting two copies of every mail sent to dapper-changes
<infinity> Lucky you.
<Amaranth> the--dud: that isn't really possible
<JanC> ivoks: don't drink that much then you won't see it twice!  :)
<ivoks> it's misconfigured exim at rince.africaninspace.com :/
<ivoks> JanC: i'm afraid it's not me
<JaneW> the--dud: will do - had a hiccough already - had a broken package...
<ivoks> somebody used backports :)
<ivoks> anyway... those of you who are on UBZ I hope you'll have great time
<ivoks> and others... well... ugh :)
<ivoks> see you!
<elmo> glade-2 (2.10.0-2/2.12.0-0ubuntu1): in main - skipping.
<elmo> gimp-print (4.2.7-10/4.2.7-10): in main - skipping.
<elmo> libgcrypt (1.1.12-8/1.1.12-8ubuntu1): in main - skipping.
<elmo> libgcrypt7 (1.1.90-9/1.1.90-9ubuntu1): in main - skipping.
<elmo> lsb-release (1.4-8/1.4-8ubuntu3): in main - skipping.
<elmo> libassetml (1.2.1-1/1.2.1-1): in main - skipping.
<elmo> busybox-cvs (20040623-1/20040623-1ubuntu22): in main - skipping.
<elmo> di-packages-build (0.7/0.7ubuntu1): in main - skipping.
<elmo> imlib+png2 (1.9.14-16.2/1.9.14-16.2ubuntu4): in main - skipping.
<elmo> the archive scripts want to remove all them - can anyone who knows about the packages comment?
<infinity> Erm.
<infinity> Wants to REMOVE them, or demote them?
<elmo> remove 
<Keybuk> Kamion was saying something about lsb-release the other day
<elmo> on the basis that they've been removed from Debian
<infinity> lsb-release should still exist in Ubuntu for now.
<Keybuk> Debian stuck the file in base-files or something
<infinity> Kamion's working out what to do with that one, but we need it right now.
<infinity> Good riddance to imlib+png2
<seb128> elmo, glade-2 has been renamed to glade
<infinity> elmo : The older libgcrypts can go the heck away too, if stuff starts to FTBFS or become uninstallible, I'll just fix it.
<elmo> seb128: i.e. it can go away?  btw, 'glade' is only in universe
<ogra> hmm, gcompris used to use libassetml-dev
<seb128> elmo, next "glade" upload will ship the same binaries, maybe we can wait on this one to trash glade-2 ?
<elmo> seb128: sure, no prob
<ogra> elmo, can you sync gcompris 7.0.3-2 from debian, then libassetml can go (at least from my (edubuntu) POV)
<ogra> (ok to override ubuntu changes)
<seb128> elmo, while you are processing packages could you promote libnautilus-burn3 to main (soname change) so rhythmbox can build again?
<elmo> oh, no, the return of a separate trashapplet
<infinity> elmo : Oh, alright.  lsb-release sorted.  You can just ignore it for now, it'll work itself out later when we merge the lsb source package, which will start building the lsb-release binary, thus making the lsb-release source obsolete at that time.
<seb128> elmo, blacklist it, Debian guys did that because trashapplet is a GNOME 2.10 feature and Sarge has 2.8 ...
<Amaranth> what replaces gimp-print?
<infinity> elmo : So, to summarize the ones I know about: kill libgcrypt*, kill imlib+png2, ignore lsb-release for now.
<elmo> infinity: ok
<elmo> Amaranth: gutenprint, according to the Debian removal
<Amaranth> ooh, gutenprint rc1
* Amaranth just found it
<Amaranth> but debian has a cvs snapshot
<infinity> elmo : Erk, I just realised we still have php3 in universe.  Given that I am, effectively, upstream for php3, and I refuse to support it anymore, perhaps we should remove it? ;)
<infinity> elmo : It got punted from sid quite a while ago.
<elmo> ogra: done
<ogra> thanks
* Simira withdraws, and suddenly turns up in Montreal
<Simira> see you tomorrow!
<elmo> infinity: no, we don't
<ogra> Simira, have a good flight
<elmo> not on jackass anyway
<elmo> I only just fixed the "remove things removed from Debian" script ...
<mdz> Keybuk: it's not infeasible that future kernels will break compatibility with udev again
<ogra> Simira, and dont forget tollef 
<Simira> ogra : I'll do my best to remember
<mdz> Keybuk: if we're to support future kernels on dapper, we'll need to do it by shipping newer userland tools anyway
<Keybuk> mdz: currently, we have to iterate /sys, figure out what looks like a device, then construct a "uevent" that captures all of the meta-data we found and post that back into ourselves to cause the creation of the /dev thing and the hotplug kick
<Keybuk> obviously this is wildly unreliable, as the kernel often doesn't put all the information into /sys that it should (input subsystem esp.)
<infinity> elmo : Ahh.  Right.  Well, we did until just now, then. :)
<Keybuk> and we may not construct the same uevent the kernel would
<infinity> elmo : Wish I had noticed before we shipped it with breezy.  Oh well.
<mdz> Keybuk: is this what's in breezy, or your new stuff?
<Keybuk> one of the changes in that branch is a file you can touch which causes the kernel to reissue the uevent itself ... so we can get rid of all that and just have a "we missed that, send it again" touch
<Keybuk> mdz: in breezy
<mdz> Keybuk: then it may be more complex, but it's also well-tested
<Keybuk> it's also well-known-broken
<infinity> Well tested, and known to be broken.
<Keybuk> cf. we can't hotplug input devices
<Keybuk> s/hot/cold/
<infinity> As for "supporting people who want to run kernel 2.8.24 on dapper", I don't think that's worth caring about.  Hardcore server guys who want shiny new kernels on old stable releases just build monolithic kernels and sidestep most issues.
<infinity> But I agree that current udev/hotplug is a mess and known broken.
<Keybuk> infinity: true... it's not a major concern, but we'd actually be talking about 2.6.15 :p
<Keybuk> being potentially incompatible with the userland for 14
<infinity> Well, the changes going into 2.6.15 look worthwhile to me.  Iff they can be safely backported and made to work.
<JaneW> rebooting
<infinity> But that's not from a "let users upgrade" perspective, just from a "stuff's hideously broken right now" perspective.
<Keybuk> right
<infinity> I do a little dance every time my machine boots, to be honest. :)
<Keybuk> from just a "it'd let us actually load the right module for an input device" point of view, it's quite handy
<BenC> thing is, if we do the udev stuff for dapper, we might aswell do 2.6.15
<elmo> seb128: done
<seb128> elmo, thanks
<infinity> BenC : You figure that'll be the biggest subsystem change in 2.6.15?
<BenC> the udev issue was the onlyt thing keeping me from wanting 2.6.15
<BenC> infinity: the only one that will potentially cause usespacr incompatibilities
<Keybuk> BenC: the upcoming changes for it?
<BenC> Keybuk: yeah
<infinity> Shock and horror, you mean we aren't getting inotify breakage anymore?
<Keybuk> it's an interesting one, I certainly wouldn't want to land it late in the process, because it will break a couple of things (which we think we already know about)
<Keybuk> but this early would work just as well as for dapper+1 ... and given how much it'll fix, I think it's worth it for dapper
<infinity> If that's really the only imcompatible thing 2.6.15 will do to us, perhaps we should backport it now, and keep an archive with rolling updates on the way to 2.6.15...
<infinity> And if 2.6.15 is on time, and not broken...
* infinity shrugs.
<Keybuk> is there a time for 15 ?
<BenC> from what Linus says, I figure 2 months
<infinity> That's pushing it.
<BenC> he's trying to hit a timeline
<BenC> most stuff will be in the first two weeks
<BenC> he wont take any major changes after that
<infinity> Unless we're tracking Linus's road-to-2.6.15 branch.
<BenC> firs two weeks is open season, then stabalizing
<BenC> we can track 2.6.15 git easily
<Amaranth> we don't want another 2.6.11 thing though
<infinity> BenC : Can we track both, including backporting this particular thing to 2.6.14, so we have a pair of kernels to evaluate in 2 months?
<infinity> BenC : Then we can just drop the one we like the least.
<Keybuk> hmm... on that branch; the uevent stuff would be nice, because it basically allows us to throw away the unreliable bits of udev and just let the kernel do it ... it'd be a huge boost in boot speed and reliability
<Keybuk> basically all the races and dropped events and crap we have in breezy go away
<jbailey> Keybuk: You talking about greg's driver core patch to lkml today?
<Keybuk> jbailey: yeah
<BenC> we can start out pulling in the changes to our 2.6.14
<BenC> if things get hairy (lots of conflicts, and too much backporting) then we may end up going to 2.6.15 anyway
<Keybuk> the input device changes would allow us to actually coldplug input devices, and more fun, hotplug them too (and enable the g-v-m "I plugged a tablet in, start inkscape" support)
* Amaranth like
<Keybuk> and means all the /dev/input/* missing crap we have in breezy goes away
<infinity> BenC : Can we push 2.6.14 to main right after UBZ?
<Keybuk> the "nested class" stuff I don't really care about, it's just a dep of the input stuff -- though it has a slight "will make us a bit more fwd-compatible" point
<infinity> BenC : I just realised we will already have incompatible userland/kernel stuff in a few days.
<infinity> (Basically, as soon as the new X finally builds <stares at jbailey>, we'll start seeing kernel/X drm confusion)
<infinity> Unless daniels purposefully left out the drm bump for now, but I doubt it.
<infinity> I'll have to poke him about it when he wakes up.
<BenC> I think after UBZ, I'll have a better idea of how 2.6.14 (and maybe 2.6.15) will affect userland, and can coordinate a move to main a lot easier
<BenC> anyone that has packages that can be affected by the kernel and is hosting a bof, should invite or manually sub me :)
<Keybuk> doesn't everything theoretically get affected by the kernel? :p
<infinity> BenC : Well, X is mostly just counting on us shipping "something >= 2.6.13", so if we do that, it's all good.
<BenC> Keybuk: guess I need to learn omnipresense before Sunday :)
<Keybuk> is that when you arrive?
<infinity> BenC : DRI/DRM stuff got a nice overhaul just as we were stabilising breezy, and it was deemed too intrusive to let in.  Which held us back from updating a bunch of drivers from CVS.
<Keybuk> tsk, these latecomers
<BenC> Keybuk: arriving Sat night
<BenC> Love day is my first official day
<Keybuk> ahh
<Keybuk> my first official day is Monday
* infinity misses Love Day and gets there Sunday night.
<Keybuk> I just snuck in early and am hiding out as a refugee
<BenC> hehe
<BenC> brb
<infinity> I should have gone a day or two early to deal with jet lag, but as it turns out, I didn't think that far ahead.
<infinity> Hopefully I'll survive Monday. :)
<Keybuk> my new quit message: 
<Keybuk> that's perfect :p
<spayne> has anyone watched NerdTV?
<seb128> jdubTV?
<spayne> seb128: ?
* spayne is confused
<spayne> does jdub run a TV station?
<seb128> yeah
<spayne> :-0
<spayne> URL?
<spayne> seb128: ??
<segfault> heh
<segfault> ops
<seb128> spayne, I don't have any URL, it was something jdub runned some time ago
<spayne> lol
<seb128> what is yours?
<spayne> for NerdTV?
<seb128> yeah
<spayne> i was watching Bill Joy and was very very bored :)
<spayne> http://www.pbs.org/cringely/nerdtv/shows/
<Kamion> elmo: remove di-packages-build
<Kamion> elmo: busybox-cvs will go soonish, but I need to merge changes from it to busybox first, so not just yet
<seb128> elmo, I've uploaded the glade name change
<seb128> http://jaroug.free.fr/debian_installer/ has screenshots of the GTk frontend for the d-i
<wasabi_> Oooh!
<wasabi_> That is *good* news
<wasabi_> And it's pretty, too!
<seb128> http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2005/10/msg00406.html
<Keybuk> pretty, but not exactly usefeul
<Keybuk> cf. #28 ...
<seb128> yeah
#ubuntu-devel 2005-11-03
<Amaranth> It doesn't take advantage of the fact that you can do things differently (sometimes better) with a GUI.
<infinity> Riddell : Around?
<infinity> seb128 : Are you working or vacationing right now?
<Riddell> infinity: hi
<infinity> Riddell : Hey, care to peruse some build failure with your name on 'em?  (The one that jumped out at me was koffice, but I'm sure there are others)
<infinity> The dust is starting to settle from the sync messes, so most of the failure now are Real Problems.
<seb128> infinity, something on the middle of that I guess
<infinity> seb128 : Righto.  Well, gnome* seems to be all sorts of angry right now, if you're in the mood to track down why it seems your library chain is uninstallible and either make uploads to fix it, or give me some build order instructions to unsnag it, that would be spiffy.
<Riddell> infinity: you'll be pleased to know I uploaded a new koffice just some moments ago
<infinity> seb128 : If you don't have the time, don't worry too much about it. :)
<infinity> Riddell : That's service with a smile.  Thanks.
<the--dud> hmm, could someone quickly tell me where gnome-terminal is in breezy? in the application menu that is
<the--dud> I'm doing a CLI howto, but I'm using fluxbox myself
<infinity> Accessories -> Terminal
<seb128> infinity, any example of stuff beeing broken?
<the--dud> excellent, thanks infinity 
<seb128> infinity, it works fine for me (my laptop runs dapper)
<Riddell> infinity: I'll be going over others, let me know if anything else jumps out at you
<infinity> seb128 : Check failed logs for gnome-print, libglade, gdk-pixbuf, gnome-utils, rhythmbox, etc, etc.
<seb128> rhythmbox was due to a soname changes waiting for promotion
<seb128> let me look on others
<infinity> seb128 : I assume I just need to get a good build order going, but since the build-deps don't seem to be doing that for us, some direction would be nice so I don't have to hunt down every one myself.
<tseng> spayne: ping
<infinity> Riddell : kdenetwork, digikamimageplugins
<Riddell> infinity: lamont just fixed kdenetwork, I'll look at digikamimageplugins
<seb128> infinity, I would blame libpng12-dev
<tseng> sigh
<infinity> Riddell : Nope, lamont's upload fails too.
<infinity> Riddell : Just later. :)
<seb128> infinity, I've the issue with my debian experimental pbuilder, apt doesn't sort it I've to apt-get install libpng12-dev by hand
<infinity> seb128 : ?
<infinity> seb128 : What's the issue?
<lamont> infinity: sigh
<infinity> seb128 : If it's the issue I saw on debian lists lately about "Build-depends: libpngXX-dev | libpng-dev", that doesn't effect ubuntu's sbuild.
<infinity> seb128 : Ours is patched to pick the first available, instead of the first period.
<seb128> infinity, k, so I've no clue on the issue
<HiddenWolf> seb128, rhythmbox hasn't hit the archive yet.
<infinity> seb128 : Alright, I'll dig deeper later, then.
<seb128> HiddenWolf, I know thanks
<infinity> seb128 : I can usually unsnag this stuff, I'm just trying to pawn off my work on you right now, cause I have to pack for UBZ at some point. :)
<HiddenWolf> seb128, ok, sorry.
<seb128> infinity, usually I can too, but I'm on my laptop from the hotel here and I've no chroot/pbuilder to track it
<infinity> I'll probably end up unsnagging GNOME between BOFs or something. :)
<infinity> seb128 : No chroots on your laptop?... Tsk.
<infinity> Oh well, you can use mine when I come. :)
<infinity> Between my "laptop set up as a full buildd", and elmo's archive mirror he's bringing (I hope), it should be alright.
<mvo> jbailey: where is the bzr-tools package nowdays?
<pitti> mvo: bzrtools!!!
<tseng> hi pitti :)
<JaneW> seb128:ping
<seb128> JaneW, pong
<JaneW> seb128: help - please. I just upgraded to Breezy. I loaded up evolution and nearly all my e-mail is there and looks normal, but my inbox is gone.... any idea what happened?
<seb128> JaneW, is that imap?
<JaneW> seb128: yes
<seb128> JaneW, that's a known subscribtion issue with some server, there is a workaround... a sec I find the bugzilla number
<JaneW> seb128: the other IMAP folder sare there, and all the 'on this computer' folder are there too.
<JaneW> seb128: great, thanks
<seb128> JaneW, could you try to go to Folders, subscribtion and to unsubscribe/subscribe to the INBOX folder?
<JaneW> seb128: aha - it was unchecked! It's back now.... Thanks so much :)
<seb128> JaneW, you're welcome, glade it works again ;)
* JaneW too
<dredg> 'glade'. auto fingers strike again? :)
<seb128> s/glade/glad/
<tseng> he just uploaded glade
<seb128> yeah, thanks to GNOME :p
<dredg> know the feeling. there's a list of words i can't just type, i have to correct them
<infinity> Somewhere along the way, my fingers decided that I should always type "server" when I mean "serve", and it's very irritating.
<psusi> so I did an apt-get source to get the source to a package... what was the right way to build it again?
<infinity> cd foo-1.2.3 && dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -b
<psusi> ahh... dpkg-buildpackage... question... what does that do differently than simply ./configure and make?
<infinity> It makes debian packages?
<infinity> (it runs debian/rules clean && debian/rules build && debian/rules binary)
<infinity> debian/rules is what's responsible for doing the more interesting things.
<infinity> And this probably belongs in #ubuntu-motu
<infinity> Or somewhere else that's not here.
* psusi is attempting to solve the mystery of why a lot of breezy amd64 libs have been build with a rediculous 1 MB alignment requirement which is wasting tons of memory
<psusi> ok, I understand what it means... but -DOPENSSL_NO_IDEA just looks funny
<infinity> Too bad there isn't a patent-encumbered algo called CLUE, too.
<psusi> hehe
<psusi> I don't suppose you would have any idea what kind of specs setting or command line option would get gcc/ld to emit a binary with a 1 MB alignment requirement eh? ;)
<infinity> -DIRRITATE_PSUI
<infinity> (No, no idea)
<psusi> lol
<psusi> didn't think so...
<infinity> PSUSI, too.
<infinity> Maybe it's intentional, so all those people with dual-core amd64 machines with 4G of RAM can feel like it's being well-used, despite only running a web browser and a mail client?
<psusi> lol
<psusi> yep... ok... the image I built also has 1 MB alignment... now... pin the tail on the toolchain breakage
<Keybuk> I'm just wondering which aligment you're looking at ...
<Keybuk> usually it's 8 bytes ... not 1MB
<Keybuk> that's going to use a _lot_ of memory
<psusi> aye.... 
<psusi> exactly
<Keybuk> so struct { char a; char b; char c; char d; }; is using 4MB of memory?
<pitti> you just have to use 4 GB for *something* ...
<psusi> clock-applet is using 111 megs of memory
<psusi> that ai't right
<Keybuk> *shrug* it's _mapped_ 111 megs of memory
<Keybuk> map != using
<psusi> it is mostly due to 2 1 MB mappings that would otherwise be like 8 kb from 40 different shared libs
<mvo> 111 looks fine to me
<Keybuk> are you really sure those aren't just the stack? :)
<psusi> yes....
<psusi> they are mappings of the sections of the .so
<psusi> when I do an objdump -x on the .so, it shows this:
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> libpanel-applet-2.so.0.1.10
<Keybuk> 00002aaaaabcf000    1024 ----- 000000000000d000 0fe:00004 
<Keybuk> libpanel-applet-2.so.0.1.10
<Keybuk> 00002aaaaaccf000       8 rw--- 000000000000d000 0fe:00004 
<Keybuk> libpanel-applet-2.so.0.1.10
<Keybuk> those two?
<psusi>     LOAD off    0x0000000000000000 vaddr 0x0000000000000000 paddr 0x0000000000000000 align 2**20
<Keybuk> right, that's just the alignment within the map
<Keybuk> that means nothing, it's just the spacing of the magic numbers that mean sod-all
<psusi> naw, it is causing the section to be 1 MB according to pmap
<psusi> when it really should be much smaller than that
<Keybuk> *shrug* that's just a 1MB _gap_
<Keybuk> it's not readable or writable, and not backed by a page
<psusi> not according to pmap
<Keybuk> the same one backed by a page follows it and is just 8KB
<Keybuk> ^^ that's your pmap output I pasted
<Keybuk> seriously, ignore the VSZ of a process, it means absolutely nothing
<Keybuk> it's like load average, it should only be taken in the context of anything else
<psusi> oh wait a second... you're right... it's ----
<Keybuk> if clock-applet had 111MB *larger* VSZ than any other applet, there would be a problem 
<psusi> well, that memory counts towards the commit limit, doesn't it?
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> only memory backed by page counts to that
<Keybuk> and if multiple processes use the same page, it only counts once
<psusi> hrm... I see... so it is only reserved address space then?
<psusi> not committed
<Keybuk> yeah, it's just mapped
<Keybuk> looking at that, I think that's just the relocation table
<Keybuk> the .so has 2MB reserved for relocation table, only 8KB of which was actually needed
<psusi> hrm.... well it still results in system monitor showing simple things like clock-applet to be using rediculous amounts of memory
<Keybuk> so 8KB is mapped
<Keybuk> *shrug* system-monitor was written by somebody who didn't understand how memory mapping works
<Keybuk> and thought he'd just copy the ps output
<Keybuk> or who did understand, and forgot that most other people don't
<psusi> hrm... maybe you'll know the answer to this one then... what's the difference between cache and buffers in the output of free?
<Keybuk> there isn't really one in 2.6
<Keybuk> cache is the page cache
<Keybuk> the bits of memory that correspond to files on disk, or shared maps
<psusi> aye...
<psusi> so what's buffers?
<Keybuk> buffers is stuff loaded for the page cache but not yet used
<Keybuk> iirc.
<psusi> hrm... that's strange...
<Keybuk> it's usually very small
<Keybuk> cached is usually huge
<Keybuk> on a modern system, you want as much of your memory as possible used by cached
<Keybuk> and as little as possible in free
<psusi> seems to grow for me quite a bit while updatedb is running... and system monitor counts buffers as used memory it seems ;)
<psusi> aye
<Keybuk> yeah, that makes sense
<Keybuk> pre-loading the next page of the file on disk so it's there when you want it
<psusi> that's one reason I hated linux memory management for a long time... it would just let apps eat up all free memory until there was none left in the cache or free, and only THEN start paging out unused data
<Keybuk> so you don't get a performance hit because the disk has moved on when you do want it
<Keybuk> define "free memory"
<psusi> on the free/zeroed list
<Keybuk> there are various configuration options to define when the system considers itself low on memory
<Keybuk> you can tinker with them so your machine behaves how you'd like
<Keybuk> the defaults are a compromise between server and desktop iirc
<Keybuk> (desktop you don't want to kill processes just because you have used up the really-free memory)
<Keybuk> really-free should be as near to zero as possible
<Keybuk> otherwise you've got too much ram in your machine
<psusi> all I know is that it used to just keep eating up the cache until there was like 2 MB of cache left, and 2 MB of free left, and THEN throw the 2 gigs of data that hasn't been touched in a week out to swap
<psusi> heh
<Keybuk> it doesn't quite work like that ... cached is actually not really "cache"
<Keybuk> cached actually includes the code of the apps you have loaded and stuff
<psusi> yea.... all of the memory mapped pages that are resident
<psusi> some of which may be mapped into user processes, and some only by the kernel cache manager, no?
<Keybuk> you'd be amazed how many people complain X uses 256MB of memory <g>
<infinity> Oh, X is a special and wonderful case.
<infinity> Since it mmaps directly to your video RAM, and that gets counted against it.
<Keybuk> it's always funny when you suggest that might be the RAM on your video card <g>
<Keybuk> people get this "ooooooh" look
<psusi> aye
<Keybuk> VSZ is a lie, news at 11
<Keybuk> I remember someone particularly complaining about it, and hadn't noticed that if they totalled the VSZs on their machine, it came to something like 80 times the memory they actually had
<psusi> hrm... ok... so the real problem then is that system monitor is counting reserved but not committed memory, and it shouldn't do that...
<infinity> Probably not, if it's meant to be useful to "normal" users.
<Keybuk> you don't even want to do that
<Keybuk> you want to just count writable non-executable non-shared memory that's not backed by file
<psusi> well... I'm a normal user... and when I go looking at the "Virtual Memory" column, I expect it to indicate the amount of memory that the process THINKS it is using ;)
<Keybuk> pmap -x $(pidof clock-applet) | grep " rw---.*anon"
<Keybuk> that stuff, in fact
<Keybuk> and that tells me the clock is using 3MB, which is still wayyyyyy too much for a clock
<psusi> actually, no... see that's what windows task manager does for it's "VM Size" field... which I found out today
<psusi> and that makes no sense to me
<Keybuk> but then I know most of that is actually the calendar integration, and known bug
<psusi> I don't care how big it's heap is... I want to know ALL the memory it is using... shared or otherwize
<psusi> paged out or not
<Keybuk> that's VSZ
<psusi> Keybuk: 3 MB is a lot less than 111 MB ;)
<Keybuk> the total amount of memory that the process could access if it wanted
<psusi> it can't access the sections that are not read, write, or execute
<psusi> they are only reserved address ranges, so shouldn't count
<Keybuk> right, but the kernel still counts them against the process
<psusi> in windows terms, it is the difference between MEM_COMMIT and MEM_RESERVE
<psusi> what for?  they don't use any actual resources
<Keybuk> to be honest, why do users care how much memory a process is using
<Keybuk> that very caring suggests they're not really users
<psusi> looking for the bloat
<Keybuk> why would a user do that?
<psusi> cause they are sick of their computer being so slow ;)
<infinity> Generally, they wouldn't, unless processes start refusing to run due to lack of free memory. :)
<psusi> or run very slowly due to all the thrashing
<Keybuk> run very slowly, you want to look at the RESIDENT size them :p
<psusi> ok... so just to make sure now... the sections that are ----- don't count towards the commit limit, but do count towards the process' vsz?
<Keybuk> because that's the bits that are left to swap
<Keybuk> there's no real commit limit in Linux, you know ...
<Keybuk> but yes, those bits wouldn't count, and in addition it's backed by file anyway, so it wouldn't count
<psusi> unless you mess with overcommit_ratio there isn isn't there?
<psusi> hrm.... true...
<psusi> I still have to wonder though where the 1 MB alignment came from... it's just... weird...
<Keybuk> *shrug* not especially
<Keybuk> it just makes the addresses look nicer
<Keybuk> makes sure there's at least that much room for that, in case you really do end up needing that much space for the relocation table
<psusi> the relocation table's size isn't dynamic
<psusi> it fits in the .reloc section, doesn't it?
<Keybuk> I don't actually know that's what you have
* psusi goes for a smoke to contemplate
<dilinger> (18:11:27) Wes Chow: I never saw it, but in that Jet Li movie "The One", they have something called the multiverse
<Keybuk> it doesn't actually match any particular section in the library
<Keybuk> it's somewhere in the hash table though
<infinity> I'm wondering if perhaps a phone with a 102-page manual is perhaps a bit too feature-rich for me...
<Kinnison> ciao all
<Riddell> elmo: can you sync libkexif from debian please
<bob2> don't syncs happen automatically?
<Riddell> bob2: not if the package has an ubuntu version number
<elmo> Riddell: in which case you need to add the magic phrase "ok to override ubuntu changes" ...
<Riddell> elmo: add to my request to you?
<elmo> yes
<Riddell> elmo: can you sync libkexif from debian, ok to override ubuntu changes
<\sh> *g*
<\sh> oh god...i'm looking like draco malfoy in the half blood prince.../me needs a "don't be afraid of take off and landings" therapy somehow
<elmo> Riddell: done
<Riddell> thanks
<Amaranth> hmm, if the breezy upgrade notes in the wiki say gnome-panel leaks ram during the upgrade wouldn't that mean gnome-menus is leaking while talking to gamin?
<blueyed> I have a problem running chroot on Ubuntu breezy.. "cannot run command `/bin/ls' : No such file or directory". Of course /bin/ls exists in the jail. I've used makejail to create the jail, but makejail also does just one iteration (probably of that problem). It used to work with Hoary.
<minghua> blueyed: maybe you can try debootstrap instead?  that's how I set up my chroot anyway
<blueyed> minghua: thank you, but I'd rather use makejail. It seems to provide less files etc (when functional).
<blueyed> What is "execve" in strace? It's result's output format seems to have changed..
<zakame> hi all
<blueyed> hi zakame.
<blueyed> Do you know what "execve" in strace output is?
<zakame> you mean the first line in that output?
<Treenaks> blueyed: sudo apt-get install manpages-dev; man execve ;)
<blueyed> No, I've meant what execve is. But just found it's man page. It's output format (for not-found-files) seems to have changed. (makejail parses this).
<rob^laptop> is anyone else getting an md5sum mismatch on http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy-security/main/source/Sources.gz
<bob2> you can check that yourself
<bob2> the checksum is in the Releases file
<Yagisan> rob^laptop: occasionally, it seems to depend on what server the dns points me to
<rob^laptop> bob2, just checked it, they match ok
<rob^laptop> apt-get update still gives the error though
<mojo> i am wondering if the new GNOME 2.14 will have its own menu editor?
<Treenaks> I heard rumours like that
<mojo> Treenaks: I saw some post in bugzilla with mockup GUI, look promising, if GNOME 2.14 does have, then we can deprecate SMEG
<ompaul> mojo, was that alacarte the replacement for smeg?
<mojo> ompaul: I can't tell for now, it's just rumour, if the GNOME menu editor is better than SMEG then we replace smeg orelse we stick with smeg then
<ompaul> smeg is dead there is this by the guy who wote smeg http://dev.realistanew.com/alacarte/releases/0.8/alacarte_0.8-0ubuntu1_all.deb
<ompaul> s/wote/wrote/ hmm
* ompaul puts his fingers away before he does some damage
<bob2> ugh
<mojo> ompaul: alacarte seems not to be a good replacement, because it's not intergrated with GNOME
<ompaul> mojo, true, but at least it is better than no editor
<bob2> you should start a thread on the forums
<mojo> ompaul: let's just wait and see what GNOME 2.14 will bring to us
<bob2> and quote random other threads from the forums
<ompaul> :)
<ompaul> bob2, and then stop the thread and start a new one
<Treenaks> bob2: and IGNORE the mailing list
<bob2> now you're getting the hang of it!
<Treenaks> bob2: you sound bitter
<bob2> don't forget to post "LOLZ" followups
<bob2> Treenaks: not at all
<Treenaks> LOLZ is the new AOL!
<bob2> I respect and appreciate the immense contribution the forums have provided to the social and technical development of ubuntu
<Treenaks> bob2: will you be/are you in Canada?
<bob2> no
<mojo> ompaul: there is a debate on whether gnome should have menu editor or not, there are 2 sides, both sides are very agressive and determined with their ideal, I think there is only 1 solution, create a configure flag to enable or disable the menu editor features and leave the rest up to distro maker decide
<Treenaks> I need that brainwashing kit
<mojo> ompaul: there is a debate on whether gnome should have menu editor or not, there are 2 sides, both sides are very agressive and determined with their ideal, I think there is only 1 solution, create a configure flag to enable or disable the menu editor features and leave the rest up to distro maker decide
<Treenaks> mojo: please only say stuff once :)
<bob2> so I shant get to meet such luminaries
<bob2> haha configure flag
<ompaul> Treenaks, I needed to read it twice helped me
<bob2> that's not taking a stand at all, that's deciding not to decide
<mojo> Treenkas: sorry, my xchat suffed, words are cut, so I just post it twice
<Treenaks> mojo: so you're making us suffer for your client's brokenness?
<ompaul> bob2, and if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice (some $song by some $band circa 1980)
<Treenaks> sounds familiar in way :)
<crimsun> freewill, by rush
<crimsun> </offtopic>
<mojo> oh yes, is the gnome-torrent in CVS as same as gnome-bt (used in current Breezy)?
<tsume> oi
<tsume> question, is everything in breezy release compiled with gcc4? qt3?
<tepsipakki> mostly gcc4, kernel with gcc3.4 i think
<tsume> :( then this error ews me
<tsume> tepsipakki: do you know if there are differences in libtool I'll need to watch out for?
<tepsipakki> no
<tepsipakki> I don't
<tsume> then I find this error intresting :)
<tsume> libtool: link: AGE `92' is greater than the current interface number `3'
<tsume> libtool: link: `3:4:92' is not valid version information
<tepsipakki> #ubuntu is probably the place to ask..
<tsume> tepsipakki: actually #C++, #ubuntu is just full of users.. mainly knot anyone who is intelligent in programming
<tsume> tepsipakki: its kinda like asking #redhat how to use YasT ;)
<tepsipakki> well, I think the ones who can answer are either asleep or partying ;) (at UBZ)
<tsume> tepsipakki: UBZ?
<[Chameleon] > Ubuntu Below Zero
<tsume> oh
<tepsipakki> in Montreal
* tsume is in Alaska
<[Chameleon] > and I'm intelligent in programming and also am in the #ubuntu channel.
<tsume> [Chameleon] : you are also in here though
<[Chameleon] > but, I don't know much about how the library stuff works.
<[Chameleon] > true
<tsume> [Chameleon] : not just library.. but libtool.. libtool is a known hell :)
<[Chameleon] > oh, I thought Windows' DLL Hell officially claimed that title
<tsume> I just hacked the compile, I know how to fix it. I want a answer to why it happens though
<[Chameleon] > hmm, wish I could help
<[Chameleon] > really, I do
<tsume> well I set it to 3:4:3, I don't know why it gets set to 3:4:92. What is 92 magic to?
<zyga> morning
<tsume> oi zyga 
<bob2> w.t.f.
<bob2> the totem plugin crashed firefox
<bob2> which apparently crashed X
<tsume> bob2: cute :)
<bob2> which apparenytly got in a loop of being unable to restart
<bob2> requiring a reboot
<tepsipakki> mininova.org crashes my firefox, for some reason ;)
<minghua> tsume: I think I've _heard_ something about this
<tepsipakki> but not with a clean profile, go figure
<tsume> minghua: I've seen it before, but I just keep "fixing" it
<minghua> tsume: perhaps libtool only accepts one-digit numbers there?
<tsume> 3:4:92
<tsume> the third digit is not supposed to be more than the first digit
<bob2> where was it 92?
<tsume> bob2: 92 is what I recieved when I built qtruby from source
<bob2> where "source" = "ubuntu source package"?
<tsume> I know its supposed to be 3. I'm still curious where it recieved 92 :)
<tsume> bob2: no, from tarball source. qtruby is outdated on the ubuntu tree for bugs
<bob2> "clueless about library versioning" is a common condition for software developers who aren't in Debian
<[Chameleon] > bob2: so are you saying it's the qtruby dev's fault?
* tsume doesn't think richard dale would screw up code like that
<[Chameleon] > bob2: otherwise, please enlighten us. I admit that I'm clueless about library versioning.
<bob2> I'm just bitter
<bob2> let me check
<tsume> would have been nice if rdale released his qt4 bindings for qtruby though before the ubuntu release :/
<zyga> bob2: totem always crashes ff 
<zyga> bob2: but X ... that's another story 
<tsume> zyga: heh.. I used to play games with people. I would crash their X session by sending emails to all my coworkers using kmail
<bob2> zyga: jah, x bug
<bob2> zyga: but that doesn't stop me directing hate in the direction of totem
<[Chameleon] > tsume: that brings new meaning to the term "mail bomb"
<tsume> [Chameleon] : I only sent 1 email to each coworker :)
<tsume> [Chameleon] : the bad part is they couldn't even delete the mail out of kmail without removing it through command line. Even if you clicked on it without the viewing pane it would crash :)
<khakionion> hey guys
<zyga> strange
<zyga> tsume: what did that mail contain? an embedded video?
<khakionion> madsen: you up?
<tsume> zyga: a special encoded string :)
<zyga> tsume: you hacker, fix kmail and stop damaging
<[Chameleon] > tsume: I know, that's what I meant.
<tsume> zyga: excuse me? no need to get insulting calling me a hacker
<[Chameleon] > tsume: the single email was a bomb
<zyga> tsume: hacker is a very positive word
<tsume> zyga: I think kiddy, not coder when I think of the word. Hollywood has ruined it for me.
<zyga> tsume: ah, I don't watch many movies, I'm not spoiled yet
<khakionion> madsen: Hope you see this when you get up. Someone walked in with Evan Williams *86* proof whiskey, so I'm not coherent, but it was just the insight I needed to get Wacom pressure sensitivity working in GIMP/GNOME. 
<khakionion> madsen: When we coincide here in ubuntu-devel, let's see if my fix works for you, or if you 
<bob2> tsume: I can't see where it's defining the soname at all
<khakionion> madsen: found your own workarouund for your....what? volitas?  Or something?  Must sleep.  TTYL.
<tsume> bob2: I haven't exactly looked at the qtruby source.. yet
<bob2> tsume: huh?
<tsume> bob2: what code were you looking at?
<khakionion> madsen: I remembered. VOLITO.  Okay, I'm out for reals. Later.
<bob2> tsume: the qtruby source
<tsume> then my very exhausted self was correct to say the statement above
<bob2> what were you looking at before if not the source?
<khakionion> Oh wait...is this Ubuntu-Devel or Ubuntu-Offtopic?
<tsume> I just edited the makefile
<bob2> khakionion: ...devel.
<tsume> bob2: I knew where to fix it right off. I just edited the makefile which had the 3:4:92
<bob2> tsume: as in the one configure generated from the Makefile.in that was generated by automake from Makefile.am?
<khakionion> bob2: thanks, couldn't tell with my current GTK+ theme. 
<khakionion> I'm out
<tsume> bob2:  the location of the file is smoke/qt/Makefile
<bob2> libsmokeqt_la_LDFLAGS = -version-info 3:4:92 -no-undefined $(all_libraries) $(GLINC)
<bob2> right
<tsume> bob2: where does 92 even come from however?
<bob2> the author set it
<tsume> I'll think about it tomarrow after sleep  when I can actually not just think ruby
* Treenaks -> UBZ
<ploum> Hello
<ploum> I'm trying to solve this
<ploum> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/flashplugin-nonfree/+bug/3204
<ploum> I have this bug on all Breezy I have upgraded from Hoary
<ploum> But nobody has it too
<ploum> so can someone tell me if there's some symlink changes or font handling change between breezy and hoary ?
<Seveas> ploum, are you sure you have ubuntu-desktop installed?
<ploum> Seveas, yes, I have it
<ploum> Can someone explain me what must be the content of :
<ploum> /etc/X11/fonts , /usr/share/fonts/ , /usr/share/X11/fonts
<ploum> I have three very different things
<ploum> In fact, lot of people have the problem and solve it by installing gsfonts-x11 and msttcorefont.  As I had it for quite some time, I think that they install their font in a directory that must be symlinked somewhere for the flash plugin
<ploum_> tiens, un kikidonk :-)
<pitti> good morning
<HiddenWolf> morning. :)
<ajmitch> morning pitti 
<fabbione> morning guys
<ajmitch> hi fabbione 
<mdke> does anyone know any docs for installing and setting up planet?
<zakame> hello all
* mdke can't see anything obvious on the website
<zakame> mdke: there was a recent blogpost about planet on planet debian
<mdke> lookin
<mdke> not recent enough :/
<bob2> eh?
<zakame> hmm?
<bob2> planet includes setup documents
<mdke> bob2, i don't have planet
<mdke> so no setup docs either
<bob2> ...
<bob2> http://www.planetplanet.org/, download, read INSTALL
<mdke> bob2, that is fine, but there is no download link
<bob2> 'A nightly snapshot of the code is available from here.'
<mdke> that would imply that it is not a stable version
<mdke> and also, I don't know how to work arch
<mjg59> There is no stable version
<mdke> ah thanks mjg59 
<bob2> it would also imply theree has never been a stable version
<bob2> it's a tarball
<bob2> you don't need to use arch
<mdke> bob2, ok, i'd love it if you would show me the tarball
<mdke> the link to scott's page is broken, and jeff's one seems to be a mixture of patches
<bob2> ?
<bob2> 22:42:46           bob2 | 'A nightly snapshot of the code is available from here.'
<bob2> 'from here' is a link to http://www.planetplanet.org/planet-nightly.tar.bz2
<mdke> argh
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> so the nightly version is ok?
<bob2> that's all there is, so yes
<bob2> jdub: do a release already
<mdke> thanks bob2 
* mdke goes off to experiment
<jdub> mdke: no, the nightly is not useful
<mdke> atgh
<mdke> jdub, what should I get?
<jdub> mdke: just baz get http://www.gnome.org/~jdub/arch/planet--devel--1.0
<mdke> ok
<mdke> would be cool to make a tarball at some stage though
* mdke installs baz
<mdke> thanks jdub, got it
<jdub> would be nice to make a release at some stage
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> failing that, explain on planetplanet.org how to get the software for people like me
<highvoltage> i think i'll download it too, and use it for my local lug.
<mdke> i can tar it up and send it if you prefer not to install bazaar
<highvoltage> me?
<mdke> yes
<highvoltage> i'd like an excuse to play with baz :)
<mdke> okay
<highvoltage> but if that fails, i'll ask for the tar. thanks.
<bob2> monsier Keybuk 
<Keybuk> ah, monsieur wier, a va?
<bob2> oui
<ajmitch> hello Keybuk, seb128 
<seb128> morning
<Keybuk> ello
<tseng> morning mdz 
* ajmitch guesses everyone is going online after breakfast :)
<Keybuk> heyyy emmmdeeezeee
<zakame> hey Kaloz seb128 mdz
<zakame> and Keybuk too
<tseng> jdub: would you please moderate my mail to -devel
<Keybuk> BenC: ping?
<Mez> keybuk, ping
<Mez> Keybuk, you there?
<Mez> I need to speak to someone who's arranging the whole UBZ thing
<Keybuk> Mez: I am
<Keybuk> I'm most definitely here
<Keybuk> though I'm not "arranging"
<Mez> cause I need to fly out tomorrow
<Mez> do you have contact details (phone or similar) for someone who is
<tseng> Mez: Claire?
<Mez> I dont have anything other than an email address though
<bob2> Mez: you're being sponsored to go to ubz?
<Mez> yes
<Keybuk> why tomorrow?
<Mez> bob2 - BA have changed my flight for tomorrow for me
<Mez> Keybuk, I managed to leave my passport in birmingham
<Keybuk> d'oh
<Keybuk> that was very silly, wasn't it :p
<Mez> I've got to go back and get it and there isnt a flight till tomorrow
<Mez> yes
<Keybuk> just turn up tomorrow then
<Mez> BA have kindly, free of charge changed my flight
<Mez> I'm just wondering about the hotel and stuff
<tseng> spayne: ping
<spayne> hey tseng
* spayne prepares for a bollixing
<tseng> hi
<Mez> Keybuk: you assume that everything will be ok ?
<Keybuk> Mez: I don't see why not
<spayne> tseng: what's up?
<tseng> spayne: i sent a reply to you, you should have got it but it got moderated to -devel (wrong address)
<Mez> so there shouldnt be any problem at that end - even though I'm due to check in tonight?
<spayne> tseng, i got it
<spayne> tseng, that is a great diea
<tseng> spayne: Mez is right here.
<tseng> so hopefully we can stop trying to all make some kind of seperate peace
<spayne> according to calvin (from novell), communications broke down as both Mez and Calvin went away for a while
<Mez> tseng ... ?
<spayne> hey Mez
<Mez> spayne, yes, we've been talking recently
<Keybuk> Mez: right, I don't see why not, I'll let claire know you're going to be late, but I doubt it'd matter
<Keybuk> you'll just end up with an extra breakfast voucher or something
<Mez> ok, cool
<spayne> Mez, basically, what boyd and the team said was they can work out something with the Flaim guys so we can get iFolder into universe/multiverse
<spayne> Mez, because, IIRC, the idea was to have a 3rd party repo, was it not?
<Mez> spayne, yeah I know, been talking to calvin about it
<tseng> spayne: great.. anything on the other points?
<Mez> Keybuk - extra breakfast voucher ? :P
<spayne> tseng, other points?
<tseng> yes.. like Debian
<Mez> hmm
<Mez> it might be better for me to get a coach back
<spayne> tseng, i haven't heard yet - i have emailed the guys
<Mez> keybuk: lucky I didnt check in online eh ?
<spayne> tseng, but i can't imagine being a problem
<tseng> spayne: great, thanks.
<spayne> tseng: see, i do have my uses ;)
<Keybuk> Mez: let me teach you the holy mantra of regular travellers
<Keybuk> as you walk out of the door, and before you shut it, repeat these words
<Keybuk> "tickets, money, passport"
<fabbione> Keybuk: and repeat that out lod jumping on one foot only
<ajmitch> & for UBZ, laptop
<fabbione> loud even
<fabbione> ajmitch: one you have money you don't need the laptop :)
* Mez sighs
<fabbione> it's enough you got tickets, passport and money :)
<ajmitch> if you have enough money :)
<Keybuk> you can always borrow a laptop, there are usually spares
<fabbione> ajmitch: you can always go back and sell the old laptop
<Keybuk> you can't borrow a passport
<Keybuk> unless you're a terrorist
<ajmitch> sadly I can't sell this laptop off
<ajmitch> as it belongs to canonical & all
<Mez> Keybuk: *sighs* I had it all ready ... I just didnt put it in the fecking bag
<lamont> dear ftpmasters: libbeecrypt6-dev
<lamont>  needs to move to main for rpm.  kthxbye
<Keybuk> lamont: when do you arrive?
<lamont> sunday 1710
<fabbione> hey lamont
<Mez> for feck sake
<Mez> it's going to cost me an extra 40 aswell to do all this
<Mez> and I doubt I can claim that
<fabbione> Mez: next time remember to connect the brain :)
<Mez> fabbione: *sighs*
<Mez> ARGH
<carstenh> pitti: hi, your name is not longer on the firewall spec page. does this mean anything?
<pitti> carstenh: no idea, but the names on the wiki page are irrelevant
<pitti> carstenh: the LP assignment is the definitive place now
<carstenh> pitti: that is what i meant with spec page. just wondered why it has disappered, but when you have no idea why it should not matter
<Nafallo> pitti: why doesn't sshd work on my server after todays update? :-P
<Nafallo> ssh_exchange_identification: Connection closed by remote host
<carstenh> s/it//
<Nafallo> pitti: hi btw :-)
<pitti> Nafallo: I'm not running dapper yet
<Nafallo> pitti: I'm running breezy (+security) on the server and dapper on the client :-)
<Nafallo> I can log in to other servers from the client
<Nafallo> hmm, todays update was sudo btw. sorry :-P.
* Nafallo becomes even more confused now.
<pitti> Nafallo: no idea, on my breezy boxes ssh works 
<Nafallo> pitti: yea, my mistake. I had s/sudo/openssh-server/ in my mind ;-)
<ProN00b> can i change the bootlogo ?
<mjg59> ProN00b: Check the usplash source package. At the moment, the answer is not easily
<ProN00b> ok, thanks (change it in next release plx ^^)
<Keybuk> I wonder whether he realises what "pron" is
<lamont> morning JaneW 
<JaneW> hi lamont
<ogra> hey guys
<JaneW> hey ogra
* ogra wonders why the heck spammers think he wants the same wristwatch george bush wears ....
<lamont> Keybuk: that's why there's a capital N, you doof.
* lamont goes to watch people test, back much later.
<mdke> jdub, playing with planet is fun!
<Keybuk> I'm trying to decide whether the lifts really do hit -3g when they rest, or whether it's just my bird flu
* mdke informs customs not to let Keybuk back into the UK
<jsgotangco> hey Mez on the road?
<Mez> jsgotangco, see http://www.sourceguru.net/
<Mez> arriving tomorrow
<Mez> I need to go back to birmingham and get my passport
<Mez> am on the way back there
<Mez> leaving tomorrow morning to fly to UBZ
<jsgotangco> Mez: Oh WOW
<Mez> jsgotangco, yes, indeed
<Mez> I'm an idiot
<mdke> heh
<mdke> watford twice on two days?
<mdke> painful
<Mez> nah
<Mez> am going to get coach tomorrow
<Mez> am on coach now
<Mez> I wanna know why the seats have network leads coming out of them though
<Mez> (not connected to anything, just there for some reason
<mdke> coach lan parties?
<Mez> lol
<Mez> would be fin
<Mez> cept theres barely enough space to sit with my lappy
<Mez> and the leads are like 10cm long at the bottom of the seats
<Mez> weirdness
<jdub> #ubz for conference discussion
<tseng> you better register ubz.com before lilo shuts you down
<jdub> haha
<tseng> ah some jokester owns it
<tseng> spam domain
<Lathiat> haha tseng
<jdub> fascists
<spayne> hey jdub 
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> can we idle in there even if we're not at the conf?
<tseng> no
<tseng> just me and bob2 
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> seriously?
<Riddell> anyone can join, it just won't help me find someone to go for lunch with if you're not in montreal
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Riddell] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubz for UbuntuBelowZero | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | MOM/NDA producing bad diffs | Ubuntu 5.10 released: http://www.ubuntu.com/newsitems/release510 | yes, dapper
<JaneW> who handles fonts, esp chinese fonts?
<seb128> JaneW, "nobody"?
<JaneW> I have a request which needs to be evaluated.
<JaneW> I am not sure what to do with it
<seb128> JaneW, I'm not sure we have somebody knowing about chinese fonts ...
<JaneW> is it a community issue?
<JaneW> it's a hand written fax, which was sent to head office
<seb128> that's an issue for sure, I would not say a community one but I don't know who to point about that
<JaneW> seb128: hmm.... I'll make it a BOF ;)
<seb128> good idea
<jdub> JaneW: what's the request?
<jdub> MORE BOF! MORE COWBELL!
<JaneW> jdub: e-mail on the way!
<jsgotangco> chinese fonts....
<JaneW> jsgotangco: you know about them?
<jsgotangco> well i can read mandarin...
<JaneW> jsgotangco: HZ, Big5 etc...
<jsgotangco> yes Big5 especially
<JaneW> and Guobiao
<jsgotangco> what's the issue specifically?
<JaneW> jsgotangco: I'll send it to you.
<jsgotangco> sure i only have 1 chinese keyboard though..hehehe i don't really use it much
<jdub> JaneW: right, thtat's all about input modules
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> the fonts are available really
<jsgotangco> the question is more of a default input mode
<jdub> JaneW: he's just wanting input module stuf to work by default, which is something we're (roughly) working on
<seb128> use scim :)
<JaneW> jdub: ok, so should I tell him to just install and try?
<jdub> JaneW: hmm
<jsgotangco> i believe our starter guide has a rough guide to install the support
<JaneW> it would help if he had an EMAIL address... who faxes!?
<jdub> weird americans
<jsgotangco> well he can accept snail  mail...
<JaneW> yay
* JaneW wants to send a hand written response in mandarin..
<jsgotangco> well mandarin describes the spoken language rather than the written one :)
<JaneW> jsgotangco: sigh, well there you go ;)
<jsgotangco> like seb128 said a while ago, there was a recent thread about scim on the list...
* jsgotangco digs that up
<jsgotangco> JaneW: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-October/012452.html
* mdke bashes his head against planet
<zul> hey people
<zul> ping pitti 
<zul> is everybody jetlagged? :)
<zul> pitti: here is fabbione.. in what room are you dude?
<pitti> Hi zul
<pitti> zul: in 338
<pitti> zul: welcome!
<zul> ok we are on the way down
<jdub> tseng: we totally have to get f-spot in the desktop seed
<seb128> jdub, yeah
<tseng> jdub: agree
<tseng> jdub: (can you please moderate my ifolder mail to -devel)
<jdub> tseng: ok
<tseng> thanks
<Simira> weeehaa!
<pitti> MOO
<seb128> hey pitti
<pitti> hi seb128, long time no see
<seb128> indeed
<jdub> tseng: dude
<jdub> tseng: we won't be talking about beagle at UBZ, but it's still on the agenda (there's no one here to talk about it)
<jdub> tseng: if you want to write up the spec and stuff, we can push it through approval :-)
<jdub> tseng: not sure where we'll get a chance to cover f-spot either, but i think that'll just be a main inclusion and seed inclusion task
<seb128> f-spot on the CD?
<pitti> argh - mono on CD?
<jdub> hi boys :-)
* pitti pats his gthumb
<jdub> seb128: i thought you said yeah earlier
<pitti> hey jdub
<ogra> isnt mono on the CD already ? 
<jdub> no
<jdub> it's just in main
<seb128> jdub, I like the idea a lot, I just have pitti in the same root we wants to hurt me to get the CD place for his language-packs now :p
<ogra> f-spot is the only app that can import from my new camera
<seb128> s/we/who/
<seb128> s/root/room/
* seb128 hates laptop's keyboard
<ogra> if gthumb doesnt keep up, we'll have to use it
<pitti> ogra: that's libgphoto, not gthumb
<jdub> gthumb is a different kind of app, less interesting as a default app
<ogra> yup
<pitti> ogra: don't tell me that f-spot has developed a new library 
<ogra> i'd really prefer f-spot
<jdub> pitti: NO
<jdub> oops
<jdub> sorry
<jdub> caps lock :)
<ogra> no idea... but it can import from any place... its not bound to gphoto... gthumb would need such a feature...
<pitti> ogra: so if both f-spot and gthumb use libgphoto, it should work with either one
<seb128> jdub, who does the spec assignment?
<seb128> jdub, ie: who should I poke to get the " Rhythmbox iPod integration should Just Work without configuration" assigned to me instead of pitti?
<ogra> pitti, it doesnt work at all... i have to mount the camera as usb storage device and select the place to import from... gthumb cant do that
<jdub> seb128: mdz, who is sitting next to me
<seb128> k
<jdub> seb128: poked :-)
<seb128> thanks ;)
<pitti> ogra: ah, usb-storage
<ogra> (and gthumb doesntrecognize it as usb storage)
<mdz> seb128: punched
<jdub> seb128: and mdz punched me!
<seb128> ah ah
<ogra> heh
<pitti> ogra: gnome-volume-manager-gthumb
<seb128> jdub, don't blame me for that :p
<pitti> ogra: gnome-volume-manager should recognize it
<pitti> ogra: I agree, gthumb isn't totally good with usb-storage
<pitti> but it works
<mdz> seb128: so you will draft/implement and pitti can approve?
<ogra> pitti, it does, and then gthumb breaks on import... 
<seb128> mdz, right
<mdz> seb128: you can't approve your own spec ;-)
<pitti> mdz: works for me
<mdz> done
<seb128> thanks
<pitti> thanks seb
<seb128> np
<seb128> pitti, did you try f-spot already?
<pitti> seb128: no
<seb128> it really rocks, that a cool stuff that we should have on the default installation
<ogra> pitti, i'll come down and show you .... and can test the wireless in the elevator while i'm at it... what was the room number ? 
<jdub> pitti: i'll give you a demo later - it's completely rad
<pitti> ogra: 338
<ogra> k, on my way
<pitti> jdub: would be nice :-)
<pitti> let's see what ogra shows off
<jdub> pitti: i have silly pictures of mdz and mark in my 'demo reel'
<pitti> jdub: WANNA SEE, WANNA SEE, WANNA SEE
<seb128> ogra, you can just go away, jdub has cooler pictures :p
<ogra> :p
<Keybuk> f-spot sucks because it won't import existing albums properly
<seb128> oh Keybuk 
<ogra> hmm
<Keybuk> so if you want to use it, you need to spend three months recataloguing your already catalogued photos
<ogra> wireless drops in the elevator
<seb128> Keybuk, mvo was looking for you :)
<Keybuk> yes, we did that one
<seb128> k, cool
<Keybuk> ogra: dunno about the wireless, my innards drop in the elevator
<jdub> Keybuk: existing albums? old f-spot albums?
<ogra> lol
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: it should just use exif metadata, including the comments field.
<Mithrandir> my hypotetical web gallery generator will do that
<infinity> mdz : Speaking of not being able to approve one's own spec, I find it fascinating that I'm assigned as "approver" on a spec that's apparently already "approved" (and not by me..)
<mdz> pitti: you have seen this photo already
<infinity> mdz : https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-upload-and-queue/+spec/upload-queue-management
<Keybuk> jdub: no, just directories of photos
<jdub> Keybuk: yeah, it'll do that no problem
<jdub> Keybuk: that's how i imported most of mine
<Keybuk> jdub: no it won't, it just imports them, and ignores the directories they're in
<mdz> infinity: that's a launchpad spec, someone else's problem :-P
<Keybuk> so I have to go through again and say what they actually are
<infinity> mdz : :)
<Keybuk> the directories are named after the date, and the event, and where it was, and stuff
<jdub> Keybuk: you want it to use directories as tags?
* infinity decides to go catch a plane.
<Keybuk> jdub: yeah, for the initial import
<jdub> it'll pull date from exif and so on
<jdub> but yeah, won't make up tags based on dir name
<jdub> might be an interesting option to raise with larry
<mdz> infinity: safe travels
<Keybuk> I've never bothered to set my camera's date and time
<Keybuk> so that'll all be wrong anyway
<jdub> you are soft
<Mithrandir> infinity: have fun, see you tomorrow.
<Keybuk> I'm not a photogeek, I'm just a random joe who happens to take a few pictures
<jdub> you can't reset dates atm, which has mucked some of mine up a bit
<Keybuk> and my camera is annoying, it forgets the date and time every time the battery runs flat
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: get a camera where that is not a problem? :-P
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: why?
* Mithrandir has a P150 which takes a few hundred pictures on one charge.
<Keybuk> it takes plenty of pictures, it just forgets the date and time if I forget to charge it for weeks
<mdz> jdub: can you say "import all this stuff and set this tag on it"?
<Keybuk> and seeing as I don't _use_ that for anything (I just name the directory when I copy the files off it) it's never bothered me <g>
<jdub> mdz: you can for some types - one sec, i'll check
* jdub demos f-spot to mdz
#ubuntu-devel 2005-11-04
<pitti> jdub: btw, I just fix ogra's gthumb import - just a missing cam entry in the USB usermap
<jdub> heh, nice :-)
<pitti> Keybuk: we really need to bury all this usermap crap
<jdub> even so, gthumb is poo :-)
<jdub> (and when i say "poo" i mean, not fully aligned with most common user goals)
<pitti> jdub: it does what I want, it's fast, so I did never bother to look for alternatives
<Keybuk> pitti: yes, we do; once we've decided which of the three possibilities for udev/hotplug/etc. in dapper we want to choose, we can see whether we'll do that or not
<Mez> Keybuk, is initNG/similar going to be in dapper?
<Keybuk> no, I wouldn't want to put it in for that
<jdub> LORD NO
<Keybuk> it's a dapper+1 thing at the earliest
<Mez> lol
<Mez> kk
<Mez> gtg
<Keybuk> we might talk about it here, and prototypes might be available on people or maayyyybe in universe if I have too many bored weekends, but definitely NOT main
<Keybuk> we have to support dapper for 5 years on the server, isn't the place to change things like that <g>
<hunger> Keybuk: dapper+1 will need to get that kind of support as well, won't it?
<Keybuk> no, dapper+1 will be the usual
<hunger> Keybuk: Oh, really?
<Keybuk> we're not doing 5 years support for every release, just special ones
<hunger> Keybuk: Oh, great!
<Keybuk> it's not been decided yet what kind of schedule (if any other than "looks good") will happen for those
<hunger> Keybuk: It should be a somewhat more reliable shedule then "whenever looks good":-)
<Keybuk> 't'ain't up t'me
<Keybuk> sabdfl: I have a better icon for Ubuntu Drivers ... a bulldozer
<Keybuk> :p
<Keybuk> the lightbulb is boorrrring
<farruinn> So does Montreal go into daylight savings tonight? I don't want to be late to Love Day :D
<Keybuk> dunno
<Keybuk> my phone got an update earlier
<hunger> farruinn: In germany you would come an hour too early if you missed the time-change.
<Riddell> farruinn: it does
<Riddell> back one hour at 0300 to 0200
<farruinn> ok, thanks!
<farruinn> mmmm, that will make getting up at 6 AM easier ;)
* tsume laughs
<feehan> farruinn, where are you driving from?
<mdke> bloody hell
<farruinn> Potsdam, NY
* mdke spends all day setting up planet and finds it doesn't work with IE
<feehan> Just curious... I'm coming from Burlington, VT
<pitti> farruinn: nice. there is a "Potsdam" in NY? There is one in Germany, too :-)
<tsume> feehan: are you in school there?
<feehan> tsume, no I work at UVM. sysadmin.
<farruinn> pitti: yeah, I've heard mention of Potsdam in Germany :)
<tsume> pitti: the US stole the name ;)
<tsume> pitti: I'm sure the city was named after a historical reference ;)
<pitti> tsume: maybe due to some German immigrants
<tsume> or a guy's name
<tsume> pitti: could be.
<farruinn> this is the potsdam that Nightmare on Elm Street takes place in though :)
* mdke notes with pleasure that planet.u.c doesn't work with IE either
* tsume laughs
<jdub> mdke: yeah, that's the plone stylesheets fucking with it
<tsume> well you can now sleep at night knowing Potsdam, NY was where "Nightmare on Elm Street" came from
* jdub will have to fix that sometime, when he can actually do puc updates
<tsume> there is a Elm Street in Postdam, NY.
<tsume> it was originally a student project :D
<mdke> jdub, well I've buggered up mine without plone :D works in firefox tho
<jdub> it's easy to arse up OS
<jdub> IE
<mdke> i'm rubbish with css
<mdke> oh well
<mdke> no one in their right mind uses IE
<mdke> especially to read an ubuntu planet
* tsume fires up IE through wine
* tsume types in the address to ubuntu planet
<tsume> *creash* *burn* oh no!
<tsume> *crash
<mdke> yeah it is ugly stuff
<mdke> anyway, great software jdub 
<blueyed> Kamion: are you the maintainer of openssh-server? I'd like to have the chroot patch in the main or alternative package (http://chrootssh.sourceforge.net/). What do you think?
<Keybuk> I suspect he's currently thinking "ah, we're coming into Land, I better put my tray-table in its upright position and stow my seat"
<blueyed> oh, ubz? Just want to know if it makes sense to wish-bugtrack it.
<jdub> blueyed: always worth a try
<Nafallo> sabdfl: hi mark :-). how's everything going over there?
<tseng> jdub: hm mdz opened a spec for beagle.. ill write something sometime this week for his approval
<Kamion> blueyed: I think "get it upstream, I don't really want to have to maintain it and keep porting it to new versions"
<Kamion> people need to push openssh patches to upstream more rather than to distros - it's all a horrible mess at the moment
<blueyed> Kamion: yes, I see. I've filed as a wish already though. Read somewhere that openssh don't want it.. :/
<lifeless> Kamion: go to sleep!
<blueyed> but it's markable how many patches there are.
<Kamion> blueyed: if upstream doesn't want it I have no great interest in going against them, since I need their help
<Kamion> blueyed: yes, way too many
<Kamion> not justification for more, especially if they've been rejected by upstream :)
<Kamion> lifeless: will do soon
<blueyed> Kamion: I'd meant putting it into the distro would help users not to have apply it. It's also a security issue, if you have to build own packages or build from source. You're also the debian maintainer?
<Kamion> no, it's not a security issue, any more than any other random patch is; I've never accepted that argument and I'm not going to start now
<Kamion> yes, I'm effectively the Debian maintainer
<Kamion> it would be a security issue if I started accepting every patch uncritically :)
<blueyed> Kamion: of course.. :) g'night.. :)
<lamont> E: Package libxaw8-dev has no installation candidate
<lamont> aw8??  hrm.
<bob2> haha
<bob2> glad they're keeping that awesome library up to date
<poningru> so how many people here are at ubz?
<robitaille> poningru,  they are probably in bed since it is 3am in Montreal :)
<zyga> morning
<zyga> hi
<zyga> hmm okay nothing
<poningru> hmm
<mdke> something wrong with universe security?
<mdke> Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy-security/universe/binary-i386/Packages.gz  Sub-process bzip2 returned an error code (2)
<TiMiDo> is it offline?
<mdke> only that one gives a problem
<mdke> the other 3 are ok
<zyga> has anyone seen pitti?
<robitaille> if he is in Montreal for UBZ, then he is probably in bed :)
<zyga> good point!
<mdke> unless he is a real party animal
* zyga is used to local time zone
<robitaille> 4:30am.... that will be a very good party
<robitaille> especially considering UBZ starts in a few short hours
<jewel_> So I got bored and made a page that randomly generates possible names for dapper+1: http://thesteve.org/ubuntu/
<mdke> jewel_, that is pretty fun
<mdke> fungicidal ferret 
<pef> hello
<flowT> 3Hi! What is faster: shared memory between some processes or kernel-level threads working in same address space? is it same speed?
<bob2> haha
<bob2> is this really your bottleneck?
<bob2> (I'd think they'd be the same)
<Lathiat> yeh they pretty much should be
<Lathiat> iirc shm on linux is tmpfs no?
<mjr> yes
<bob2> doesn't it just map it into both address spaces?
<mjr> well, posix shm is
<mjr> sysv shm is different, I think, still
<Lathiat> bob2: well at least one implementation just uses files on a ramdisk
<Lathiat> hence /dev/shm, i assume
<mjr> yes, posix shm uses that
* Lathiat nods
<zyga> how slow is generic IPC stuff (msg queue for example) compared to library call?
<zyga> or to really state the question:
<Lathiat> uh all now we're getting started :)
<mjr> (personally I think that sysv ipc should be reworked on top of the posix stuff as much as possible, but ah well)
<zyga> if 10 processes are using a shared library and call it pretty often
<zyga> how less efficient would that be if instead of shared library I'd have a daemon process that all the other processes would talk to via any ipc 
<zyga> the amounts of data are small in this case
<Lathiat> well, when your talking to another process, you usually end up context switching back and forth 
<bob2> I'd think the extra context switch would be the issue
<Lathiat> not that thats often a problem and the levels most people work at
<bob2> but would be swamped by whatever work that you're actuall ydoing
<mjr> yep, context switches
<zyga> in current setup all N processes are doing the exactly same work and get exactly same result, want to move that to a daemon
<zyga> hmm
<Lathiat> you also get things like, if your using dbus o rsomething, you context switch twice
* zyga thinks about writing gettextd
<Lathiat> well, 4 times, i guess
<Lathiat> zyga: uh, why?
<zyga> just out of curiosity ATM
<zyga> think about all the processing done by every app
<zyga> looking up files 
<zyga> reading files converting lots of stuff to utf8
<Lathiat> iirc gettext is pretty effecient, the files are mmaped with a hash table built into them or something
<zyga> Lathiat, only if you have utf8 encoded files
<Lathiat> zyga: there are better performance problems to solve atm :)
<zyga> Lathiat, otherwise it transcodes them back to any locale your app is using (which is utf8 pretty often(
<Lathiat> i.e. lots of things that go and read in 350 files
<zyga> Lathiat, nah I care about i18n :-)
<zyga> Lathiat, that too
<bob2> figuring out why gnome is so goddamn slow would be a good one to work on
<zyga> Lathiat, gettextd could buid a cache in /var/cache/gettext
<zyga> one big file with simple database
<Lathiat> bob2: theres alot of optimization for gnome already figured out
<Lathiat> people just need to fix it
<zyga> could be better i/o wise than gazillion of .mo files
<Lathiat> fixing gconf woudl be a good start
<mdke> multimedia needs fixing in breezy too
<Lathiat> grahame bowland had a workign sqlite gconf frontend 
<Lathiat> mdke: multimedia is hard 
* zyga is patching gnome to add X-gettext-domain to .desktop files and that sucks i/o wise
<mdke> Lathiat, i'm sure
<Lathiat> what we need is gstreamer totally kicking ass
<mdke> it was better in hoary though
<Lathiat> so you can just drop in the appropriate plugins
<Lathiat> from less legalish sources :)
<Lathiat> mdke: howso?
<mdke> Lathiat, well i have mp3s on a gnump3d server and I can't play em remotely with totem
<Lathiat> you could never play mp3s out of the box
<Lathiat> whats gnump3d ?
<mdke> its just an mp3 server
<Lathiat> is the problem here getting it out of the server or decoding the mp3
<mdke> the former
<Lathiat> right
<Lathiat> well i repeat my question, what the f**k is gnump3d? :)
<Lathiat> what does it serve over?
<mdke> http
<Lathiat> that should work fine?
<Lathiat> as long as you have the mp3 decoder installed
<Lathiat> which it isnt by default due to patenty or something issues
<zyga> Lathiat, right unless ubuntu buys a 100K license for gstreamer ;-)
<Lathiat> zyga: :)
<mdke> i have the decoder
<mdke> totem doesn't get the right signals from firefox i guess
<zyga> (100K buys a unlimted number of software licenses for any one software)
<Lathiat> zyga: heh, cute
<zyga> Lathiat, ah my mistake
<zyga> only 50K
<Lathiat> petty cash ;)
<zyga> http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html
* Lathiat reaches for hsi top drawer
<zyga> let's wait for a sponsor to pay for legal mad :-)
<zyga> actually
<zyga> a fundraiser for 50K is pretty possible
<zyga> ughh
* zyga noticed the table on that site is a huge image :-)
<Lathiat> wow, whoever gets that money must be making a killing
* Yagisan would rather use vorbis
<Lathiat> apparently i can get a plugin for my new phone to support vorbis, which is nifty
<zyga> what is .m4a
<bob2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4a
<Yagisan>  zyga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4a
<bob2> zing!
<zyga> ah
<highvoltage> i can't find an answer for this anywhere. my breezy installation creates reiser4 partitions fine, but doesn't want to mount it. is reiser4 support complete in ubuntu?
<siretart> hi Mez 
<siretart> Mez: where are you? 
<Mez> around warwick
<Mez> I'm on my way to heathrow
<siretart> ah
<\sh> Mez: so u missing the start :)
<Mez> yeah
<zyga> highvoltage, cat /proc/filesystems ?
<Mez> wont be there till 5:45
<bob2> highvoltage: erm
<bob2> highvoltage: resier4 isn't in the kernel...
<Yagisan> highvoltage: you need a -mm kernel for that, but we have other nice filesystems for you to try
<bob2> just use ext3
<zyga> err, just use reiserfs
<alexbligh> Hi: I know this is not a support channel (just been sent here from #ubuntu as apparently this is sufficiently arcane) BUT: I am trying to get ubuntu installed on a machine with a 9500SX 3-Ware RAID controller. Contoller support was added after 2.6.12. This is to be the only filesystem in the machine. My attempt to do this so far involves building a custom kernel package (backporting the 3-ware driver to 2.6.12( and it recogni
<highvoltage> i'm using reiserfs atm, just wanted to play with the built-in compression in r4. thanks, i'll keep an eye out for it in dapper.
<Yagisan> highvoltage: I use ext3 or root, all others are jfs
<carstenh> alexbligh: everything after "( and it recogni" has been cut off
<alexbligh> try again
* zyga thinks it's strange to include reiserfs4progs and not include the relevant kernel
<alexbligh> Hi: I know this is not a support channel (just been sent here from #ubuntu as apparently this is sufficiently arcane) BUT: I am trying to get ubuntu installed on a machine with a 9500SX 3-Ware RAID controller. Contoller support was added after 2.6.12. This is to be the only filesystem in the machine. My attempt to do this so far involves building a custom kernel package (backporting the 3-ware driver to 2.6.12
<highvoltage> zyga: me too, that's why i asked :)
<alexbligh>  and it recognizes the RAID controller, but I get lots of invalid LUNs and mkfs grinds to an incredibly slow halt. 
<alexbligh> When I make a new CD I get /dev/rd0 not present (why does it care) and boot drops into a shell.
<alexbligh> I don't know whether my backport failed (in which case what's the best way to get 2.6.14 into a kernel package WITH appropriat dpatch's) or whether my attempt to make a CD is screwed
<alexbligh> Any suggestions?
<alexbligh> It's a 1.5Tb disk
<madduck> jbailey: happy birthday! :)
<gouchi> Hi
<gouchi> I was wandering how http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/ is it uses ?
<gouchi> is it uses to solve some hardware problem ?
<gouchi> or just to have statistic about which hardware did or didn't work ?
<ogra> gouchi, both... even if we currently only collect the data, its planned to a.) provide statistics about hardware used, b.) show problematic hardware and c.) give an hardware overview for bugtracking
<gouchi> ok ;-)
<gouchi> cool
<jbailey> madduck|msg_me: Thanks. =)
<ogra> jbailey, !!!
<seb128> hey Jeff
<ogra> jbailey, happy getting older !!!
<jsgotangco> birthday?
<ogra> now you belong to the grown ups :)
<tseng> ogra: only if he cuts that hair
<highvoltage> ogra: why, how old is jbaily now?
<zul> jbailey: foogey
<ogra> highvoltage, never ask a girl for her age ;)
<highvoltage> ogra: lol!
<jsgotangco> bwhahaa
<tseng> oh man
<jsgotangco> especially with blue highlights...
<bob2> jbailey: oh, happy birthday
<highvoltage> ogra: how to you set your irc name / network on launchpad? I didn't get those fields.
<ogra> highvoltage, ask Seveas
<ogra> he does it for us
<highvoltage> ogra: ok.
<ogra> highvoltage, oh, on launchpad... i thought on irc
<zul> ogra: stop beeping ;)
<ogra> dunno, i just did it ...
<mdke> i think the functionality may have been removed from the LP member configuration screen
<mdke> it used to be there
<highvoltage> ogra: no, sorry, i'm an idiot. the fields are there, i think i just looked passwd it somehow
<ogra> highvoltage, go to edit your details... its in the lower box on the right
<mdke> oh good
<ogra> it has a extra box
<ogra> highvoltage, dont forget to subscribe to the edubuntu team ;)
<bob2> it's gone it seems
<mdke> nah it's there
<mdke> just a bit harder to find
<ogra> eeek
<ogra> how did i end up on this one ? https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/openoffice-gnome
<jbailey> ogra, zul, bob2: tahnks. =)
<jsgotangco> ogra: edubuntu has an lp team??
<ogra> jsgotangco, suure :)
<highvoltage> ogra: just joined. launchpad++ :)
* jsgotangco looks
<ogra> its only some days old yet ...
<ajmitch> hi
<ogra> morning ajmitch 
<ajmitch> ogra: more specs for you? :)
<ogra> seems like ....
<jsgotangco> hi ajmitch 
<ajmitch> hello jsgotangco 
<ogra> struggling with my presentation brought me this i guess.... as if werent enough that ooo2 annoys me while working with it, now i'm also supposed to fix it *g*
<jsgotangco> dapper ooo2?
<ogra> it didnt work for my presentation un breezy... so i think its supposed to be fixed in dapper
<ogra> (didnt try the final 2.0 packages yet)
<mdke> we need some templates to open openoffice documents in nautilus by right-click
<mdke> that would be cool
<ogra> i think there is a 'BOF scheduled for it... but dont quote me on that
<jsgotangco> that would be nice
<ajmitch> morning CaiN_SA 
<CaiN_SA> elo
<mdke> also having a gnome save file dialogue in openoffice would be very cool
<CaiN_SA> how you ?
<mdke> so you can select bookmarks
<\sh> ajmitch: where r u...
<seb128> already discussed on the list
<seb128> you can
<mdke> ooh
<seb128> it's not used by default for stability reasons
<ajmitch> \sh: about to head down to breakfast..
<ajmitch> \sh: you?
<mdke> seb128, the templates, or the save dialogue?
<ogra> i guess ooo2 will have improved over the next 6 months, so it might be usable by then
<seb128> the second
<CaiN_SA> erm sitting in my room
<mdke> cool
<\sh> ajmitch: already there and trying to drink my 10th coffee
<seb128> the templates have already been discussed too
<mdke> i filed a bug on the templates but had no reply
<seb128> and we decided that's up to the box admin to ship a set of thoses
<CaiN_SA> ajmitch, 
<ajmitch> \sh: ok, will be down in ~2 min :)
<ogra> \sh, youre down again ? 
<seb128> mdke, probably because he got assigned to nobody?
<\sh> ogra: yepp..
<CaiN_SA> hmmmmmmm
<mdke> seb128, there was a QA
<seb128> ?
<\sh> ogra: but i have to head up in a few...to get my gpg stuff on my small baby
<CaiN_SA> we gonna go park downstairs in the lobby
<ogra> ooooohhhhhhhh, new members for the edubuntu launchpad team :-D
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mdke> seb128, #17154
<ogra> wheee ... approved :)
<ogra> jsgotangco, highvoltage, you'll now recognize a little emblem in the box on the left in your account page ;)
<seb128> mdke, ah, you filled it on openoffice
<jsgotangco> wow i see it
* jsgotangco has 5 emblems now
<seb128> mdke, not sure what is the right place, but previous discussion states that we don't want to ship templates anyway
<mdke> seb128, ok. Which month of the ml archives should I look in for that? I can't see a reason not to do this, windows does it and users will expect it
<ogra> jsgotangco, whats "TL" ?
<jsgotangco> ogra: Tagalog
<ogra> ah... its attached to te flag emblem...
<ogra> looks like its separate
<seb128> mdke, not sure, it's like 1,5 years old ... dunno if that's one of the current lists, maybe you can mail the list about that to have a new discussion
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> seb128, i see the discussion about gtk dialogues in september, thanks for pointing that out
<mdke> seb128, should I assign that bug away from openoffice2-gnome then?
<seb128> mdke, basically you have to make easy for user to get ride of the templates they don't want, and make easy for them to get new one, make easy too for admin to set new ones/for user to no use them
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> why?
<mdke> they don't get in the way
<mdke> anyhow we can revert this discussion to the ML, I'm sure you're busy right now
<seb128> yeah, I've to go for breakfast
<seb128> they do get on the way, if I don't use openoffice (and I don't), I don't want to have my nautilus menu listing those
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> it's listed in the applications menu, that isn't in the way
<mdke> but i take your point
<seb128> maybe I masked the applications menu entries with a menu editor? :)
<mdke> so we need a template editor :)
<seb128> he he
<seb128> anyway breakfast time
<seb128> see you later
<mdke> later
<mdke> thanks
<CaiN_SA> ajmitch, where you dude ?
<\sh> CaiN_SA: he's having breakfast
<CaiN_SA> ah ok
<CaiN_SA> where you ?\
<CaiN_SA> also parking off there ?
<\sh> CaiN_SA: in our room just now...on our way down somehow
<zul> i suggest the elevator :)
<CaiN_SA> lol come to the bar :)
<CaiN_SA> cleear
<zakame> hi all
<CaiN_SA> yo
<sivang> morning all :)
<ajmitch> morning sivang 
<sivang> hey ajmitch
<ajmitch> sivang: where are you?
<sivang> ajmitch: Ubuntu Love Day quesions about breezy panel
<ajmitch> right, so you are here already :)
<sivang> yeah :)
<frenkel> does anybody know why gnome-btdownload 0.18 was included in breezy? there's a 0.22 already (released in september)
<frenkel> the 0.18 version lacks support for changing port numbers and stuff
<tseng> because that was well after autosyncs and upstream version change
<tseng> *upstream version freeze
<frenkel> mm, k
<frenkel> but 0.18 was released 24 januari
<frenkel> and 0.19 was 4 march
<mdke> you can always install the new version
<frenkel> i know
<frenkel> but was it frozen before march already?
<mdke> you have to look at when they came into debian i think
<frenkel> ah ok
<frenkel> well, lets hope 0.22 will be in dapper then ;)
<tseng> you could prepare a diff
<frenkel> what do you mean?
<Kamion> gnome-btdownload | 0.0.22-1ubuntu1 |        dapper | source, all
<Kamion> it's already in dapper
<mdke> :)
<frenkel> ty :)
<frenkel> where can i read that? :p
<frenkel> i mean, where did you read that?
<\sh> apt-cache madison ,)
<frenkel> :p ty
<\sh> and have dappers deb-src in your sources list
<zakame> hi all
<zakame> how do I add myself to LP ubuntumembers list?
<spayne> zakame: you can't
<spayne> zakame: i was made a member recently but you need sabdfl to add you
<spayne> zakame: he is very busy atm so you will just have to wait like me :)
<zakame> spayne: ah ok :D
<spayne> zakame: when you are added, you also get your ubuntu.com email
<spayne> whiprush: ping
<jsgotangco> as long as you have singed the CoC =)
<spayne> i have signed the CoC
<zakame> jsgotangco: I have, since joining :)
<jsgotangco> zakame: CC board can add members
<spayne> they are all so busy atm
<zakame> spayne: yes, I remember you last meet :)
<spayne> zakame: :)
<zakame> no hurry, just ironing out some wondering :))
<spayne> still not on Planet Ubuntu yet
<spayne> sigh
<jsgotangco> ask a sync from elmo =)
<spayne> elmo: when will Planet Ubuntu be synced?
<mdke> or alternatively, stop complaining about it
<spayne> mdke either way works :)
<mdke> i am bugging him quite regularly about it
<zakame> haha
<spayne> me or elmo?
<mdke> but there is a problem and it will take a long time
* zakame goes off to sleep
<mdke> so give up for now pls
<spayne> mdke: how long is a along time?
<zakame> night all
<spayne> night zakame
<mdke> enough time for you to do loads of work in the documentation team
<zakame> or in MOTU :D
<spayne> mdke: i have been checking all the iFolder and finishing the Hula stuff
<spayne> mdke: as some twit had changed a lot of he iFolder stuff so i was broke
<spayne> mdke: the downer of having a Wiki :(
<mdke> spayne, if you look at HelpContents you will see how to revert bad changes
<spayne> mdke: i reverted them as well as add some stuff
<spayne> mdke: it is just bloody annoying
<spayne> mdke: i also put in a redirection from the old Hoary iFolder/Hula pages to the new ones
<spayne> mdke: so i've been keeping myself busy :)
<spayne> mdke: i am then gonna tidy up the Beagle stuff as there is too much and confusing stuff
<mdke> you can just delete HulaHowTo
* mdke moves channel
<hyperactivecrond> hey all
<jsgotangco> mdke: hehehe
<mdke> ?
<jsgotangco> mdke: the planet thing
<mdke> bah
<mdke> all the best blogs aren't on planet
<highvoltage> my lag is 5.10. should i blame ubuntu? :)
<spayne> mdke: like mine ;)
<mdke> hmm
* mdke reconsiders
<spayne> :(
<mdke> jsgotangco, anyway, it's all about loco-planets now anyhow
<jsgotangco> mdke: im trying the handsfree email thing on dasher
* mdke looks to see if -tl has one
<jsgotangco> mdke: we haven't gotten one yet i'm about  to fix the server now
<mdke> oh cool
* spayne could do a UK one
<spayne> hey sabdfl
<ivoks> hello
<sladen> it must be morning over there
<Kinnison> yer, 'tis 10:34
<jsgotangco> sladen: grooviness personified didn't go to ubz?
<Kinnison> couldn't find a way to mooch his way over :-)
<jsgotangco> lol
<sladen> jsgotangco: well at least whiprush can't blame for spreading any evilflu this time (*ahem*, it has thom's fault anyway)
<sladen> Kinnison: 10:34!  Must have been a sunday
<mdke> jsgotangco, dasher?
<jsgotangco> mdke: predictive text entry 
<mdke> cheating em
<mdke> em/eh
<mdke> nice
<jsgotangco> well if you have a device that follows your eyes, it can be used..
<mdke> or your hat :)
<jsgotangco> i also used kmousetool
<jsgotangco> hehe
<sivan> type something to me in hebrew
<sivan> btw - I really ENJOYED our flight chat, made my time fly :)
<sivan> ah oops :)
<jdub> Kamion: dude, FirstAgainstTheWall wasn't on the spec list! :o we sould totally do that
<Kinnison> can irssi be taught not to display channel keys in the status bar?
<mdke> Kinnison, keys as in numbers?
<Kinnison> mdke: no, channel key as in channel password
<mdke> ah
<mdke> Kinnison, possibly /help statusbar i guess
<Kinnison> mdke: yeah, I think I have to redefine how it formats channel modes, or something equally joy-inducing
<mdke> yeah sounds like a fun way to spend 10 minutes
* Kinnison grins
<alexbligh> If I want to make a kernel package with 2.6.14 in, what is the best way to go about it? I have followed the instructions on the wiki (et al) and can happily make packages with patched versions of 2.6.12 in, but copying the debian directory into 2.6.14 does not work in an obvious manner
<ivoks> :)
<ivoks> it's not that simple
<ddew|bofh> Hey
<zul> alexbligh: you might want to look at the ubuntu git tree at http://www.kernel.org/git
<zul> im not sure if it builds yet though 
<alexbligh> hmmm - I'll have a look
<ddew|bofh> Are there any known bugs in the ppc64 kernel that would cause random sig11s?
<alexbligh> zul: thanks. If that builds, it will do what I want.
<pkern> Where could I retrieve the breezy netinstall cdr image with ~8 Mb?
<fabbione> pkern: archive.ubuntu.com/dists/breezy/main/installer-....
<fabbione> (more or less)
<pkern> Yeah, I already looked there, but I remember that there was a location with isos in it. In this one there's only a simple directory.
<pkern> |:
<sabdfl> mjg59: ping
<sabdfl> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-dev/+poll/tb-nomination-mjg59-2005/ ;-)
<Kamion> pkern: look harder :) http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/mini.iso
<pkern> Kamion: Oh well, then they are only available for i386 ):
<ivoks> urgh...
<Kamion> pkern: what arch in particular are you looking for?
<ivoks> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/installer-amd64/current/images/netboot/
<pkern> Kamion, ppc
<Kamion> debian-installer (20051018) unstable; urgency=low
<Kamion>   [ Colin Watson ] 
<Kamion>   * Build mini.iso images for powerpc and powerpc64 netboot.
<Kamion>  -- Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>  Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:57:35 -0400
<ivoks> uh
<Kamion> i.e. I did that recently, will be available for dapper
<mdke> congrats mjg59 
<pkern> Oh you're Colin... :D
<ivoks> :))
<Kamion> you can basically just bung all the bits from http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/installer-powerpc/current/images/powerpc/netboot/ onto a CD with an appropriately-munged yaboot.conf, though
<Kamion> yes
<pkern> Sounds a bit weird because I don't know what to put into the boot block and why the yaboot.conf requires changes (doesn't look wrong)... But I'll probably go for the big install download then. Thanks anyway and please have it ready for dapper. ;)
<Kamion> pkern: changes> just to make sure the paths match wherever you put the files on the CD
<Kamion> you do need to mess around with an hfs.map file and funny mkisofs options, it's true
<Kamion> but there's no need to exhort me to have it ready for dapper; it's already been uploaded to Debian so it will propagate into dapper when I merge debian-installer
<Kamion> which is a when, not an if :)
<mjg59> sabdfl: Thanks!
<pkern> Ah it was a Debian change, fine then. :D
<Kamion> right
<pkern> I'll run jigdo-lite for now, thanks anyway for your help.
<jdub> sabdfl: i didn't even realise the vote was in a working state!
<jdub> sabdfl: is that a quorum of members?
<sabdfl> mdz: https://launchpad.net/people/techboard/
<tseng> i think a quorum would be a bit more than 26 by now
<sabdfl> jdub: it's a majority vote, i don't think we wrote any bits about a quorum, good point
<\sh> mjg59: congrats :)
<sabdfl> mjg59: pretty compelling result
<mjg59> sabdfl: Seemingly so
<mjg59> How's Montreal (for those over there)?
<\sh> sabdfl: but there are more then 26 members...
<daniels> mjg59: vancouver is cold and wet
<jdub> mjg59: sweet, but "BZ" was FALSE ADVERTISING
<mjg59> jdub: Dude, people said that
<\sh> mjg59: less then 4 hours of sleep 
<dilinger> it snowed most of yesterday in boston
<sabdfl> mjg59: off to a good start, considering we stumbled back to the hotel at around 4am this morning
<dilinger> today it's like 60F
<CaiN_SA> lol sh
<CaiN_SA> you tired ?
<sabdfl> the wonders of automatic scheduling indeed... less management, more drinking
<sabdfl> CaiN_SA: sleep deprivation is normal. liver catastrophe isn't :-)
<Kinnison> sabdfl: mmm bze
<jdub> sabdfl: maybe we need to apply automatic scheduling to our drinking timetable
<CaiN_SA> haha sabdfl 
<sabdfl> jdub: i was trying to do time-based rounds of beer
<CaiN_SA> sabdfl, who r u ?
<Kinnison> sabdfl: so long as that didn't result in regular time-based releases
<jdub> sabdfl: oh, man, no wonder my ears are bleeding
<\sh> CaiN_SA: the boss ,-) 
<CaiN_SA> i dont have hangover or anything
<jdub> Kinnison: luckily the releases were predictable and reliable though!
<CaiN_SA> everyting is to expensive here ;p
<Kinnison> jdub: and well targetted?
<CaiN_SA> the boss ?
<ogra> \sh, thats an american rock musician
<jdub> Kinnison: i can only hope so
<tseng> ogra: is it?
<dilinger> sabdfl == springsteen?
<ogra> dunno, isnt he called like that ? 
<zul> springsteen
<ogra> *g*
<tseng> by the way you guys should knock off all the silliness
<tseng> community members will start leaving in a huff
<tseng> and rewriting their reviews
<ogra> heh
<sladen> dilinger: what's 60F in real temperatures?
<CaiN_SA> erm
<CaiN_SA> dunno really
<Kinnison> sladen: approx 15
<CaiN_SA> im so confused in this place
<CaiN_SA> everything is different to south africa
<ajmitch> heh
<carstenh> http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&hs=Nxa&client=firefox&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&q=convert+60+grad+fahrenheit+in+celsius&spell=1
<CaiN_SA> hmmm ajmitch 
<CaiN_SA> havnt seen you yet
<ajmitch> yeah, I'm listening to kiko
<CaiN_SA> lolol ya as we all are
<daniels> ajmitch: i'm sorry to hear that
<zul> its not that cold outside
<CaiN_SA> multitasking is wonderfull ;0
<daniels> it does appear to be 10C outside, which is fine
<CaiN_SA> ya
<daniels> it's the rain and fog at yvr that concerns me
<mdz> mjg59: congratulations
<robitaille> jdub,  do you if your map at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWorldWide gets updated?
<CaiN_SA> but at 3 pm
<CaiN_SA> its extremely cold
<mdz> mjg59: and thanks for stepping up
<ddew|bofh> So, anyone experienced lockups on ppc64 on 5.10?
<robitaille> jdub,  it doesn't seems to get updated for quite a while...
<mjg59> ddew|bofh: Solid for me
<jdub> robitaille: i do it manually atm
<jdub> robitaille: i'll run one now
<pef> mdz: hello
<ddew|bofh> mjg59: Even with sound?
<robitaille> jdub,  thanks.  I corrected the guy who put himself by mistake at the South Pole :)
<ajmitch> robitaille: so I'm the southernmost person again?
<CaiN_SA> yeah prolly ajmitch 
<jdub> robitaille: update! update!
<ddew|bofh> mjg59: Got any hints/guides I can read?
<mjg59> ddew|bofh: That's a point - I've never tried sound
<mjg59> ddew|bofh: Uhm. For tracking down lockups? Not really, I'm afraid.
<jdub> going to mjg59's house is a good start :)
<pef> mdz: I've made some debdiff for breezy-updates, are you the man who check them ?
<ddew|bofh> Getting 5.10 to run on ppc64 I meant :)
<ddew|bofh> Sound was enabled by default and it seems solid enough for a while but after that it just oopses
<ogra> pef, universe ? 
<ogra> pef, run them through dholbach or me for preselection to keep the workload for Kamion and mdz low
<pef> ogra: ok, and yes, they are for universe
<wasabi> hmm looks like the d-i partman ... stops, when changing a part name to "" on macs. ;)
<mdke> Seveas, do you know of a way to view those ogg videos on your site without firefox crashing? damn totem keeps crashing on me
* mdke downloads them one by one
<pef> ogra: should I list them on a wikipage ? for the moment they are lost in launchpad bug reports (one correct a FTBFS, another one correct a non working apps, another a broken package), I already asked to dholbacj, who adviced me to submit them to mdz or Kamion
<ogra> just add the info to the bugreport and notify us about the bug
<ogra> s/bug/bugs/
<mdz> pef: if they're straightforward, send them to me, otherwise ask ogra for help getting an initial review
<pef> ok :)
<mdke> no one else get's this on their "update"? Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy-security/universe/binary-i386/Packages.gz  Sub-process bzip2 returned an error code (2)
<pef> ogra: they are on Malone, #3360, #3142, #2018, #3576, #3350
<ogra> pef, ok, i'll look at them this evening i have to listen to some talks...
<tseng> dholbach: !
<dholbach> yay! :)
<ogra> dholbach, whoever of us me first today: <pef> ogra: they are on Malone, #3360, #3142, #2018, #3576, #3350
<ajmitch> hey dholbach :)
<dholbach> ogra: right
<dholbach> pef: thank you
<Kamion> wasabi: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1170
<Kamion> wasabi: it's surprisingly hard to fix
<dholbach> ajmitch: hey andrew
<pef> dholbach: which kind of changes are accepted for x-updates ?  
<dholbach> pef: urgent, very easily comprehensible ones
<Kamion> ogra: just mdz, I'm not reviewing breezy-updates
<ogra> oki
<pef> dholbach: very small debdiff I presume :)
<Kamion> 17:30 < ogra> pef, run them through dholbach or me for preselection to keep the workload for Kamion and mdz low
<Kamion> ^-- re that
<wasabi> funny.
<Kamion> mdz: I just fixed a germinate bug (or at least I think I did, haven't got elmo to test it yet) that, er, accidentally caused everything in extra to end up in all
<Kamion> mdz: this bug was in the version of germinate in breezy - once elmo's tested it, can I upload that to breezy-updates?
<daniels> lamont-away: if you've not left yet, can you please bring a soldering iron? :)
<Treenaks> daniels: where are you then?
<daniels> Treenaks: not at home
<tseng> daniels: i watched him take a pocket knife through the airport last time
<tseng> daniels: we'll see how he does with an iron
<daniels> tseng: heh
<tseng> we are getting on a plane and lamont says, oh.. i still have my leatherman
<wasabi> darnit.
<wasabi> The Breezy DVD I just burnted is corrupt.
<wasabi> *weep*
<Seveas> mdke, foodfight.org is not my site, ask Treenaks :)
<mdke> oh sorry doh
<Keybuk> *blink*
<Keybuk> you know, I have no idea how to upload to ubuntu
<Keybuk> I really have out-sourced that knowledge to dupload
* wasabi writing a little debconf configurator for Kerberos/LDAP stuff.
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: "ftp to upload.ubuntu.com"?
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: yeah, I looked in dupload.conf :p
<Mithrandir> heh
<elmo> Kamion: new germinate is happy - thanks
<andi5> hi. i hope you dont mind me asking newbie questions :( can somebody quickly give me a hint where i can get kernel sources from? i mean the 2.6.12 tree configured like my iso? (patched might be enough with /proc/config.gz?)
<Mithrandir> andi5: apt-get source linux-image-`uname -r`, but why do you want to do that?
<andi5> Mithrandir: i need newer wlan drivers
<andi5> Mithrandir: i remember issuing something like apt-get kernel-tree in debian irrc. i will try above now :) thanks a lot!
<Mithrandir> they'll probably build outside the tree, so you can just do apt-get install linux-headers-`uname -r` and point the makefile to /usr/src/linux-headers-`uname -r` and it should work.
<andi5> Mithrandir: hm, i think i need a "fully configured kernel tree", will see whether this is correct
<Mithrandir> yes, my last suggestion should give you that.
<andi5> Mithrandir: yeehaw. thank you so much ;-) - make install; depmod; ifup&down and i can remove the cable :)
<Kamion> elmo: ok, cool, I'll send that in the direction of breezy-updates too then
<ukh> I'm looking at a debian/changelog from an Ubuntu patch and I don't have a clue about Ubuntu...  does "malone" mean anything in the Ubuntu tongue?
<\sh> ukh: http://launchpad.net/
<\sh> ukh: then bugs
<ukh> \sh: thanks!
<\sh> ukh: your welcome
<\sh> ugh...i'm tired
<wasabi> There a Debconf tutorial that describes how to use multiselect anywhere?
<madsen> !seen khakionion
<madsen> Hmm...
<Akatemik> Hi. I was thinking of remastering an ubuntu-livecd for my own needs, biggest difference being a need to make it boot on multiple archs. But I haven't been able to find technical documentation how the livecd-system works on ubuntu.
<Akatemik> From seeing how it boots it almost feels as it is installing something and booting to that.
<Akatemik> This image is reinforced by the fact that in addition to the cloop-fs the cds contain release-files and deb-packets.
<Akatemik> Could someone point me where I could learn about the current system and possibly modify it without reverse engineering everything?
<pitti> infinity: already awake?
<elmo> isn't he, like, on a plane?
<CarlFK> Akatemik - I would ask on the dev list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
<Akatemik> CarlFK: I will, if I no-one answers me on IRC (it should be faster, especially if there's complete documentation somewhere and I'm just blind with my googling). Thanks.
<CarlFK> at any one time there are generaly 2 versions of ubuntu "active" - the current one and the one in beta.  do these two have "official" names, like stable/testing, current/beta, thisone/nextone...? 
<HrdwrBoB> there's one 'active'
<HrdwrBoB> and one for people who know what the name of the next version is
<Akatemik> Like dapper?
<CarlFK> I was looking for 2 terms that don't change as versions are relased
<HrdwrBoB> you really don't
<HrdwrBoB> it's not useful
<HrdwrBoB> if you set it to 'unstable' (not that it exists) your box will be probably spend 70% of it's time broken
<wasabi> There anyway in debconf to make the requirement of one question depend on the answer of another?
<wasabi> And then show them all in the same db_go batch.
<wasabi> (I am thinking about GUI based debconf)
<HrdwrBoB> there may be a link from 'stable' to the current release, but you really don't want to go upgrading your whole OS wily-nily
<CarlFK> HrdwrBoB - its forfor human comunications not machine
<Kamion> madsen: there's not too much to describe if you already know the rest of debconf; the debconf-devel(7) man page should describe everything you need, I think
<Kamion> wasabi: I don't understand "make the requirement of one question depend on the answer of another"
<wasabi> Kamion, Well, I have a question "Does your Kerberos 5 configuration have SRV records?"
<wasabi> And if not, I want to ask for two server names.
<wasabi> But, on a GUI based debconf, It makes sense to display them all on one page.
<Kamion> wasabi: you can't do that with only one GO
<wasabi> Alas.
<wasabi> The UI is going to be pretty nasty, then. Basically little tiny questions per page.
<Kamion> you can do that *sort* of thing with clever debconf filtering - oem-config does this kind of thing
<Kamion> it's pretty hard to write code like that, but it's possible, providing you're willing to implement the frontend yourself
<wasabi> A simple dependency setting on one template for another, which the curses part ignored, but the GUI part disabled/enabled boxes with would be interesting.
<Kamion> I don't think dependencies are the right model - I don't think it would be expressive enough
<neurogeek> Hello there..
<neurogeek> Anyone working with Ubuntu installer??
<Kamion> neurogeek: yes
<wasabi> Well, you see where I'm going though. The d-i GUI frontend is a bit sucky.
* Mithrandir mumbles "custom templates" to Kamion and wasabi.
<wasabi> Since it's this huge screen.
<Mithrandir> s/templates/widgets/
<neurogeek> Kamion, hello.. nice meeting you
<wasabi> With one little question per screen.
<Kamion> Mithrandir: indeed
<Kamion> perl debconf doesn't support custom widgets yet though
<Kamion> cdebconf does but it's (currently) a pig to build them outside the cdebconf tree
<Mithrandir> true, but pdebconf is supposed to die a fiery death, so. :-)
<Kamion> that needs to be fixed sometime ...
<Kamion> Mithrandir: ... eventually :)
<Mithrandir> yeah.
<neurogeek> Kamion, im from Venezuela and we are working on a Linux MetaInstaller.. i wanted to see if you guys are interested ..
<Kamion> wasabi: I've been hammering away trying to convince the d-i GUI people to buy into custom widgets, but they don't seem to be taking me seriously
<Kamion> neurogeek: what's a metainstaller?
<wasabi> I dunno. Custom widgets sounds Hard.
<Kamion> it's the right answer for much of d-i
<Kamion> partman in particular
<wasabi> Isn't that doable now?
<Simira> someone has to teach me to fix bugs
<Kamion> wasabi: in your case, though, you could just ignore the answers to the server name questions if the boolean is false, and phrase the text appropriate
<Kamion> ly
<Simira> brb
<Mithrandir> Simira: easy, go to bugzilla, click "resolve bug"
<neurogeek> Kamion, A MetaInstaller is a Installer with the ability to install any Linux distribution (or HURD or BSD) we are so interested in working with Ubuntu.. we already had some perfect tests with it
<wasabi> With a custom partman interface for the GUI d-i which just sets debconf variables.
<Kamion> wasabi: the guts are there, although they're tricky to build
<wasabi> ANd then jumps into the normal partman logic.
<Kamion> wasabi: that's one option, but you end up duplicating a lot of code
<wasabi> Hmm.
<wasabi> Okay, related question. WOrking with a debconf multiselect question.
<wasabi> I want to display options such as "Kerberos 5", but I want to code against it easily.
<Kamion> neurogeek: patches always welcome, certainly
<wasabi> Such as "1"
<wasabi> or "krb5"
<wasabi> I can't find much of a reference about debconf multiselect.
<neurogeek> Kamion, when you've got the time.. visit http://www.latinux.org/tiki-browse_gallery.php?galleryId=8 there are some screenshot.. although they are in spanish, you can see the screens 
<Kamion> wasabi: traditional solution is to put "krb5" in the templates file and make the English translation in en.po be "Kerberos 5"
<wasabi> Ahhh!
<wasabi> Smart.
<Kamion> I much prefer code to screenshots :-)
<Kamion> neurogeek: is it based on d-i?
* wasabi writing a krb5/ldap configuration package.
* wasabi which probes DNS for settings.
* wasabi and properly configures pam and nss
<Mithrandir> wasabi: are you at UBZ?
<neurogeek> Kamion, it is a Web based Installer.. it can install locally, remotely and massively
<wasabi> No.
<neurogeek> Kamion, sorry.. d-i??
<neurogeek> ah
<neurogeek> no
<Mithrandir> wasabi: you should have been, since I have the "remote authentication" bof tomorrow.
<Kamion> neurogeek: the Debian installer, which we use
<neurogeek> it is not..
<wasabi> Can't afford it.
<neurogeek> Kamion, no.. it is based on Python +  Javascript.. entirely from scratch
<Mithrandir> neurogeek: d-i is flexible enough to do a Hurd or BSD install using.
<Mithrandir> somebody just needs to sit down and do it.
<Kamion> neurogeek: I don't think we'll be shifting to a different installer, and we don't have the resources to maintain two installers, but ideas on making installers work better with derivative distributions are certainly welcome
<Kamion> I did a fair bit of the Hurd support for d-i a while back - I just need time to persuade the thing to boot, which is the hardest bit
<Kamion> (since booting into the Hurd without a hard-disk-backed root filesystem is tricky)
<neurogeek> Mithrandir, yes.. but what about installing other Linux distros??
<Kamion> neurogeek: I think that's best left to those distros' installers
<Mithrandir> neurogeek: if they're debian-based, it's trivial.  If they're not, then it's a bit more work, but certainly doable.
<Kamion> at any rate, I don't think it's a problem we want to try to solve in Ubuntu; others are certainly welcome to try :)
<Mithrandir> if somebody paid me enough $money||$booze, I guess I could hack it in, just for the hack value.
<neurogeek> Kamion, Well.. thanks anyways.. I will be sending some news later on to the ubuntu list anyway to let you know we'll be doing some more work with it.. thanks a lot
<Kamion> in the Ubuntu installer, we need to deal with the various distributions based on Ubuntu; that's enough work for me for now, I think ;)
<Kamion> rpm base system installation support in d-i would be good to have, for completeness
<Mithrandir> I've been toying about the idea of using d-i for opensolaris
<Kamion> but there are technical problems with having an installer whose infrastructure differs too widely from the distribution it's installing
<Kamion> you really want to build it out of the relevant distribution
<neurogeek> Mithrandir, Kamion I now.. it just part of the goods we've try to bring.. ;)
<wasabi> Simple sh help: I have a string such as "krb5, ldap" and I want to execute a command once per item.
<Kamion> it may be easier once we move everything into the first stage rather than the two-stage system we have now
<tseng> wasabi: any chance you can get the string w/o commas?
<wasabi> Sure.
<wasabi> simple sed.
<Mithrandir> wasabi: for i in $(sed -e 's/,//g') ; do $whatever; done
<Kamion> or IFS=", "
<tseng> then just 'for i in $blah; do foo; done
<Akatemik> Anyone working with ubuntu-live?
<wasabi> Hmm. Guess that works without spaces.
<Kamion> Akatemik: the metapackage? it's automatically generated from seed lists
<Mithrandir> I hate adjusting IFS. :-)
<Akatemik> Kamion: I mean the project as whole
<Kamion> Akatemik: you're in the right channel; speak :)
<Akatemik> I'd like someone to give me a quick tour on what happens between inserting the cd and X starting up, or pointing me to a right doc.
<wasabi> Hmm. Okay. ANother one. I have two lists seperated by ,.  I want to union them.
<wasabi> Heh.
<Akatemik> I'm planning on some quite heavy customizing, so I need to know how it works.
<tseng> wasabi: foo="$bar $baz" ?
<wasabi> without dups.
<tseng> uniq them first
<wasabi> Guess I could run them thru sort and uniq
<Kamion> Akatemik: the first half of it is the same as the first half of the regular Ubuntu installer (i.e. language, country, keyboard, hardware detection, network configuration)
<Kamion> Akatemik: after that, control is transferred to casper
<Kamion> probably the best answer to your question at the moment is to point you to the casper source package; you'll probably end up hacking it anyway
<Akatemik> Kamion: It did look like it's somehow installing something and then booting on that. Which is weird for a livecd
<Kamion> Akatemik: ? no
<Akatemik> I tried to look into casper, but google didn't give much. Also it doesn't seem to be in breezy universe.
<Kamion> it mounts a compressed loop filesystem and transfers control to it
<Kamion> it's in breezy MAIN, not universe :-)
<Akatemik> I did found it on the pool, though.
<Kamion> having stuff we depended on for the live CD in universe would not be allowed
<Kamion> 'apt-get source casper'
<Akatemik> Well, my laptop that runs breezy doesn't show it with apt-cache, hmm...
<Kamion> it's not a .deb, so you won't find it with tools that acquire normal binary packages
<Mithrandir>     casper |       1.18 | http://archive.ubuntu.com dapper/main Sources
<Kamion> casper.dsc => casper-check.udeb + casper-udeb.udeb
<Akatemik> Kamion: Ah
<Kamion> Akatemik: note that the core of the installer and the live CD both is a minimal system which installs extra stuff into itself in order to know how to do the rest of its job; that may be what you're seeing
<Akatemik> Kamion: The weird part was when there was the ubuntu-splash and messages below it, like on a normal boot.
<wasabi> Oh. Great. Hmmm.
<wasabi> HMMM. Okay. Heres a question. This might not have a good answer.
<wasabi> I have seperated a series of debconf based scripts into 2 files in my packages, which I want to source dynamically based on answers to questions in the base .config.
<Mithrandir> Akatemik: that's because that's really what it does.
<wasabi> Since .config runes before unpack, is this even possible?
<wasabi> I guess I need to move my logic to postinst.
<Mithrandir> make the fragments into functions.
<wasabi> Trying to avoid that... but yeah, that's an answer.
<Akatemik> Ok, I'll start looking into casper
<wasabi> Actually it has occured to me just now that I think I have to have these in postinst, as they use dig.
<wasabi> which isn't part of base.
<Mithrandir> s/base/Essential: yes/
<Akatemik> Kamion: Installs extra parts into itself, that explains the pool directory?
<Akatemik> And dists
<Kamion> Akatemik: right
<Akatemik> Kamion: How come the installer doesn't have all those parts "installed" by default?
<Kamion> wasabi: indeed, you can't rely on anything much in the filesystem in .config, save for Essential: yes packages and debconf itself
<Akatemik> It seems like an useless level of complexity to play with debs in a livecd
<Kamion> Akatemik: they're not debs, they're installer components
<Kamion> different
<Kamion> we will be simplifying the live CD in dapper, though
<Akatemik> Kamion: Just after I get the hang of the current process :)
<Kamion> Akatemik: the core of the installer is used in a number of different situations, which don't all use the same pieces; this system gives us more flexibility
<Akatemik> Kamion: Hmm, ok.
<Kamion> also, it has some benefits in low-memory environments, etc.
<Akatemik> Kamion: It would just seem that loading the cloop-image and running from there would have all the necessary components
<Kamion> and for maintainability - don't want to have to rebuild the core of the installer every time we change, say, the partitioner
<Mithrandir> I have noticed that "installer which installs packages into itself" breaks people's minds, while it's really sweet.
<Kamion> Akatemik: it does, once we get far enough to be able to load said cloop image
<Akatemik> Kamion: Isn't cloop support in the kernel?
<Kamion> Akatemik: like almost everything else, it's modular
<Mithrandir> you don't want a custom kernel for the live cd.
<Kamion> our kernel packages spit out loop-modules-*.udeb with the relevant module
<Akatemik> Mithrandir: You don't?
<Mithrandir> or for the installer CD either.
<Kamion> it's not in the installer core, because it doesn't need to be in the installer core :-)
<Kamion> Akatemik: definitely not
<Kamion> the big focus of doing the live CD this way was maintainability; one kernel, one hardware detection strategy, etc.
<Kamion> now that it's settled down, we can make it faster
<Akatemik> Hmm. The mindset is quite different from my previous debian vs. knoppix one.
<wasabi> Cool. Done and works.
<Akatemik> Using one system for both...
<Mithrandir> Akatemik: no, because then it's even more painful to maintain, and you get problems with the live cd kernel not booting on $obscure_piece_of_hardware while other kernels work.
<Kamion> yes, we started out with morphix and had a lot of problems with it
<bur[n] er> (but fast ;)
<Kamion> most of the existing live CD systems seemed to share a number of the basic problems we were encountering, so we decided to rethink it from scratch
<Akatemik> Frankly, I have to admid that I haven't yet decided which distro I will use as the base for my project.
<Kamion> bur[n] er: except for the poor sod who had to spend two weeks putting together the warty live CD for just one architecture and trying to make it sort of work
<bur[n] er> alex? :)
<Akatemik> For a start ubuntu seemed nice, because it works quite well automatically. Like knoppix, but it is so over optimized that remastering didn't seem that trivial.
<Kamion> with the (then) new architecture, we got three architectures for free with very little ongoing effort
<Kamion> bur[n] er: alex was supposed to be doing it but didn't deliver; somebody else had to step itn
<Kamion> in
<Akatemik> And just before the ubuntu system seemed like overloaded with complexity :) But it might be that the system makes keeping up with releases a lot easier for me.
<Kamion> there is certainly a fair bit of complexity in the current system, some of which is unnecessary
<Kamion> I'll be the first (well, maybe second) of the responsible developers to admit that it needs work :-)
<Mithrandir> Akatemik: you've looked at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDCustomizationHowTo ?
<Akatemik> Mithrandir: Yes, I've used it as a base for my project
<Akatemik> Mithrandir: Without that I doubt I would have even began with ubuntu
<CarlFK> should http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/breezy/release/ only have DVD images?
<Mithrandir> heh, 'k
<Kamion> CarlFK: yeah, the rest are on http://releases.ubuntu.com/breezy/
<Kamion> CarlFK: there should probably be a link
<Akatemik> Kamion: You wouldn't happen to have a mailing list or something for dapper-live, so I could follow the devel?
<Kamion> Akatemik: it's not split off from the rest of Ubuntu development at the moment, so just ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
<Akatemik> Kamion: Ok
<Akatemik> Kamion: BTW, are you on x86 or all platforms?
<tseng> x86, ppc, and amd64 are fully supported
<tseng> there are other archs in various stages
<tseng> ports.ubuntu.com
<Akatemik> tseng: That hardly means that all the devs know about all of those...
<tseng> im not sure how that is relevant
<Akatemik> tseng: It's relevant if I want to ask Kamion ppc-questions.
<tseng> meh, kamion specifically
<Kamion> Akatemik: I have all three
<Kamion> at the moment I'm on powerpc
<Akatemik> Kamion: Great, since ppc is the one that doesn't even boot yet
<Kamion> what sort of powerpc, and what are you trying to boot?
<Akatemik> I'm doing a x86/ppc hybrid livecd, and testing on an ibook
<Kamion> I've done a hybrid, but only once; I did get it to at least boot
<Akatemik> x86 boots and fails when starting xdm, but goes to console so I've reached the first milestone there
<Kamion> I assume you know all the mkisofs options you need
<Akatemik> I finally got bored how nobody makes hybrid livecds and began to make my own
<Akatemik> Kamion: I think so, I use the ones given in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDCustomizationHowTo
<Akatemik> But it gave me "Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable mount root fd on unknown-block(0,1)"
<Kamion> before getting as far as d-i?
<Kamion> sounds like it can't find the initrd; did you keep all the files in the same locations relative to the root of the CD, particularly the stuff in /install/?
<Akatemik> Kamion: Frankly I don't know. I haven't tested it myself, I had my friend on it. I have to go there physically tomorrow to speed up deving
<Akatemik> Kamion: I separated x86 and ppc into their own folder, ppc is in i-ppc
<Akatemik> Afterwards I changed the references in yaboot.conf
#ubuntu-devel 2005-11-05
<Kamion> IME you don't need to separate them
<Akatemik> Hmm, might be since everything is still under powerpc
<seb128> is there any buildd master to push a rhythmbox retry? 
<Kamion> are you sure you caught all the reference?
<Kamion> references
<Akatemik> grep install * turns up nothing in the i-ppc folder
<ogra> Akatemik, are you serious about xdm ? xdm is buggy afaik...
<Akatemik> ogra: Yes, there's no room for kdm
<Kamion> anyway, the bootloader configuration would definitely be what I'd double-check
<ogra> hmm... probably switching to login app or wdm would help ...
<Akatemik> Agreed, but can't find anything wrong with it
<ogra> me neither, else i'd have fixed it before release :)
<Akatemik> Kamion: http://pastebin.com/411506
<ogra> i was looking at it shortly before release ... dunno if fabbiones last upload fixed it ... he did an upload one or two days before release
<Akatemik> ogra: Umm?
<Akatemik> ogra: You mean breezy's yaboot.conf isn't supposed to work?
<Kamion> Akatemik: he's talking about xdm
<Akatemik> Ah
<ogra> Akatemik, i only talk about xdm
<Akatemik> ogra: I was agreeing to Kamion
<ogra> oh, ok...
<Kamion> Akatemik: is that line wrap between lines 32 and 33 really there?
<tseng> \sh: there can only be one sh!
<Akatemik> Kamion: No
<\sh> tseng: hmmm
<Kamion> Akatemik: presumably you adjusted the -hfs-bless argument to mkisofs
<Akatemik> Kamion: Yes
<tseng> \sh: soren hansen
<\sh> tseng: give me a short summary
<\sh> tseng: i don't get it now...just because i'm somewhat tired
<tseng> \sh: he is on dapper-changes right before your last upload
<Akatemik> Kamion: http://pastebin.com/411510
<Akatemik> That's the script I use to regenerate the iso image
<tseng> \sh: if you didnt get it yet, any humor is gone
<tseng> sorry
<\sh> tseng: sry..
<Akatemik> Kamion: I doubt it would even get a kernel panic without the bless, it wouldn't even get to yaboot.
<CarlFK> Kamion - what do you call stable and testing?  (if not stable and testing)
<Kamion> Akatemik: indeed
<Kamion> CarlFK: we don't
<CarlFK> Kamion - that cant be ;)
<CarlFK> what would you call breezy before and after it was released?
<crimsun> 5.10
<\sh> after release 5.10
<CarlFK> lol
<\sh> before release easily breezy
<Akatemik> CarlFK: Lemme guess, a debian user :?
<CarlFK> nope.  never did deb, but once I started using Ubuntu I did kidna get exposed to some debisims
<CarlFK> Im trying to make my PXE boot menu have 2 sections: one for stable/current/real/useme and one for testing/beta/risky/danger
<Kamion> CarlFK: breezy before release, breezy or 5.10 after release
<Kamion> Akatemik: I'm out of ideas for now I'm afraid; it does look ok
<bob2> smeg is obsolete now?
<Kamion> I'd have to look at the box myself to help much further
<sivang> whois bob2 
<CarlFK> grr - Im about to call my 2 sections before and after - noone wlll have a clue what they refer to
<Kamion> CarlFK: I think if you used "stable" and "unstable" most people would understand what you were referring to
<CarlFK> myself included...
<bob2> sivang: 1024D/1E73B7CD
<Kamion> "testing" would be confusing since we don't have any process similar to the one that generates Debian testing
<CarlFK> Kamion - thats all I was looking for.  a pair of terms that was "blessed" 
<Kamion> they're not blessed as such, but due to our Debian heritage they'll more or less be understood
<Kamion> we don't use "stable" because we have multiple stable releases at any one time
<Q-FUNK> jbailey: happy birthday! :)
<jbailey> Q-FUNK: Thanks!
<azeem> jbailey: hey, from me, too
<jbailey> Thanks Michael =)
<Q-FUNK> jbailey: you guys go to cafe campus or foufounes and have fun.  I'll tag along in spirit :)
<jbailey> Mmmm spirits.
* CarlFK writes "happy birthday to jbailey" on http://www.kelliscakes.com/img22.gif
<sivang> jbailey: happy birthday from here as well :)
<jbailey> =)
<CarlFK> someday I am going to make the virtual cake machine...
<Akatemik> Kamion: Well, thanks anyway :/
<Akatemik> Kamion: Note that I didn't use all the args with mkisofs as given in the doc
<Akatemik> There were multiple howtos for ppc, so it is kind of a union
<\sh> fabbione: slept well?
<fabbione> \sh: yeah
<\sh> fabbione: lucky man :)
<fabbione> is jbailey anywhere around
<fabbione> ?
<CarlFK> fabbione - he is eating his birthday cake ;)
<fabbione> ah ok
<fabbione> is everybody still downstair?
<ajmitch> jbailey is still sitting here
<\sh> not me...laying naked on the bed and trying to relax
<fabbione> ajmitch: here as in s1?
<ajmitch> yes
<fabbione> ok thanks
<fabbione> catch you soon down there
<tseng> you guys are already done for the day?
<Kamion> Akatemik: I'm unconvinced by the second one on LiveCDCustomizationHowTo; it uses a lot of dubious options
<ajmitch> tseng: yes, love day was short
<Akatemik> Kamion: Agreed
<Kamion> the first matches what we're using on the current CDs, with the exception of CHRP stuff (-chrp-boot -l)
<Akatemik> Kamion: However it claims that the first one does not boot
<Kamion> and some sorting weight stuff which isn't important for bootability] 
* Q-FUNK wishes he could have come along to UBZ - for the developer pals and to touch base with his old hometurf
<Kamion> Akatemik: with no information about the machine type on which it didn't boot
<Akatemik> Kamion: Umm, the first one does not have the -chrp-boot...
<Kamion> if it was a CHRP, then indeed ...
<Kamion> Akatemik: indeed, but that doesn't matter on an iBook
<Akatemik> Kamion: I couldn't even find that option in mkisofs
<Akatemik> Kamion: Hmm, I wonder if I should try to make a pure ppc-livecd first and see how to make that work.
<Kamion> $ mkisofs --help 2>&1 | grep chrp
<Kamion>   -chrp-boot                  Add CHRP boot header
<Akatemik> Oh great, --help is more current than manpages...
<Akatemik> So unheard of coming from obsd side :/
<Kamion> ah, yeah, seems not to be in the man page, that's a bug
<Kamion> it would certainly be worth trying a trivial remaster (i.e. no changes) of the powerpc live CD as a control
<Akatemik> Kamion: So the first command in the howto is what you use on official lives for ppc?
<Kamion> it was at the time; I don't think the changes since then should be required for iBooks
<Akatemik> Kamion: Do you have the makefiles/scripts somewhere on a cvs or is it just something that someone does on their own computer?
<Kamion> all we've added since has been -chrp-boot -iso-level 2
<Kamion> it's in arch, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/, colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/debian-cd--ubuntu--0
<Kamion> but trust me, you really don't want to use debian-cd unless you have to; it's very complicated to operate
* Keybuk sends baz2bng voodoo vibes towards Kamion
<Kamion> I have colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/cdimage--mainline--0 to wrap it, but even then it's hard to set up
<Kamion> Keybuk: in my CFT
<Kamion> Keybuk: oh and I need to get bzr installed on little first
<Keybuk> CFT?
<Kamion> copious free time
<Keybuk> maybe you should get mdz to do it, now he has all that free time from not approving specs
<Kamion> heh
* Kamion gives back partman-base in the hope that it'll actually build this time
<Kamion> (since it recently built on sparc, so it was probably just waiting for libparted1.6-13)
<the--dud> does anyone know who's in charge of the server distro of ubuntu?
<the--dud> of/for/in
<the--dud> something hehe
<tseng> its just a seperate install cd
<tseng> different set of packages in the cd image
<tseng> all the usual suspects are responsible
<the--dud> okies
<Akatemik> Hmm, ubuntu as a server
<bob2> branding them as different things really lead to a lot of confusion
<dan_> hello
<the--dud> hi dan
<dan_> i need some help finding sound drivers for my motherboard. can you help?
<the--dud> perhaps, I could try
<the--dud> I dunno if -devel is the place to ask, but go ahead
<dan_> its a elitegroup 741gx-m
<dan_> the elitegroup website has the drivers on there but their for windows
<bob2> #ubuntu is the place to ask
<the--dud> hmm, let me try to figure out which chipset it uses
<bob2> also, you'll need to find out what chipset it has, if you don't know already
<dan_> i dont
<the--dud> "AMD-based motherboard using SiS 741GX and SiS964L chipsets"
<bob2> anyway, #ubuntu, not here
<CarlFK> tweeking my cron scrips and wondering: is there a daily dapper dir yet? (dont shoot me)
<mxpxpod> can someone help me debug a problem I'm having with gksudo?
<mxpxpod> I'm getting a corrupted double linked list error when I use the --message option and specify a full path to an executable
<Amaranth> congrats mjg59 
<Lathiat> did he get elected or something?
<tseng> yes
<bob2> Amaranth: is the alacarte debian source available anywhere?
<Amaranth> bob2: http://dev.realistanew.com/alacarte/releases/0.8/deb-src
<Amaranth> bob2: but seb128 had some issues with the current packaging
<Amaranth> it's basically a good package for breezy users but for dapper i need to change some things
<bob2> yeah, I itp'd it for debian...might just go from scratch then
<Amaranth> well, it's just the mv in rules and the symlinks that he didn't like
<Amaranth> and that i made a new package instead of working off the smeg one
<bob2> hah
<bob2> at least you remembered to Replace it ;p
<Amaranth> Replaces, Provides, Conflicts
<Amaranth> so it would cleanly replace smeg in breezy and not remove ubuntu-desktop
<bob2> haha
<bob2> there's a SMEG entry in wikipedia
<Amaranth> cool, but incorrect
<Amaranth> i'm in there too
<Amaranth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travis_Watkins
<Amaranth> hey mpt
<mpt> hi Amaranth 
<Amaranth> don't suppose you've ever played with alacarte :)
<mpt> alacarte
<mpt> the name is familiar
<mpt> It's the new name for something, isn't it
<mpt> ah, the menu editor
<mpt> no, not yet
<Amaranth> i thought maybe you could give it a spin so i could claim to have some UI testing for 0.9 ;)
<mpt> okie
<mpt> but not tonight
* mpt should be asleep
<the--dud> Amaranth, url?
<Amaranth> i'm hoping i can release 0.9 in two weeks, sit on it for 3-4 weeks collecting bug reports and translations, then have 1.0 for dapper :)
<Amaranth> mpt: that's fine, no hurry
<Amaranth> the--dud: http://dev.realistanew.com/alacarte/releases/0.8/
<mpt> I've got to get lots of sleep in preparation for being triple-booked in the first BoF session tomorrow
* Lathiat laughs
<Amaranth> what is the first session?
<mpt> it's, like, everything
<Amaranth> oh, it's a bunch running at once?
<mpt> well, there's the keynote and then there's the process walkthrough
<mpt> and then there's the carnage
<mpt> I'll be at UbuntuExpress by executive order
<Amaranth> boo
<mpt> boo?
<Amaranth> gtk frontend to d-i is a much better plan
<mpt> how so?
<Lathiat> Amaranth: no its for a different target
<the--dud> I get an import error, but I'm still running hoary btw
<Lathiat> Amaranth: its to install off the live cd, explicitly
<Lathiat> not to make a better installer frontend
<mpt> My girlfriend is bitching at me about Ubuntu's non-graphical install
<the--dud> nice python coding also
<mpt> (figuratively speaking)
<Amaranth> the--dud: the code is horrid
<the--dud> mpt, kick her in the head hehe
<the--dud> Amaranth, :p
<Amaranth> the--dud: I blame GTK+.
* mpt kicks the--dud in the head
<farruinn> mpt: so that's why ubuntu is making the change? ;)
<the--dud> anyway, its missing a module
<Amaranth> the--dud: It's the "in" thing to do.
<mpt> She says the Ubuntu partitioning is worse than the entire Gentoo installation process
* Lathiat laughs
<mpt> (she was on Gentoo previously)
<Amaranth> the--dud: No it's not, you are. :) hoary isn't supported
<Lathiat> the suse installer is quite nice
<Lathiat> overall
<farruinn> partitioning is really the only difficult part, a graphical installer should help tremendously I think
<Lathiat> also the suse boot process is pretty
<Amaranth> bleh
<Amaranth> i like ours better than a hack to run an X server right away like that
<mpt> Anyone got a Suse install disc lying around?
<the--dud> Amaranth, checked out http://primates.ximian.com/~sandino/python-glade/ btw? I found it quite excellent to work with
<Lathiat> the x server isnt run right away
<Lathiat> its vesafb i think
<farruinn> Lathiat: never used suse, but I was very impressed with usplash the first time I booted breezy!
<Lathiat> fedora uses the xserver mid-0boot
<Amaranth> and the boot server takes over acpi stuff so the regular running server doesn't get access to it
<the--dud> much cleaner code, without all the retardedness of the pygtk
<Amaranth> the--dud: It's not clean _at all_.
<Amaranth> the--dud: It pollutes my namespace with all the junk from the glade file.
<mpt> farruinn, yeah, and I have personal motivation to be involved in the design
<the--dud> well, I've only just look briefly at it... you might be right
<Lathiat> Amaranth: glade file isnt supposed to have junk? :)
<Amaranth> Lathiat: I don't name widgets I don't interact with.
<Amaranth> Lathiat: They get default names.
<Amaranth> boxes and bonobo containers and such
<bur[n] er> is there a Dapper wishlist for users to post something to?  I just want to vent an idea about using tightvnc with vino and maybe even adding support for the tightvnc file transfer
<zakame> hi all
<wasabi> In bash. Trying to figure out if a string contains another substring.
<Keybuk> in bash [[ string = "*substring*" ] ] 
<wasabi> ahh
<Keybuk> iirc
<Keybuk> it might need == and or =~ or something
<Keybuk> anyway, bed
<jdub> wow, 905 votes on dragon vs. duck, and they're at NECK AND NECK
<jdub> s/at //
<Kamion> wasabi: case $string in *substring*) stuff; more stuff ;; esac
<Kamion> (portable sh)
<Kamion> Amaranth: hoary is supported
<Amaranth> Kamion: Not by alacarte.
<Kamion> oh, I see
<Kamion> missed the context, sorry
<robitaille> jdub,   neck to neck?  45 votes between the 2.  It's close, but not that close :)
* robitaille is behind the duck
<jdub> robitaille: percentage wise though ;)
<Amaranth> the duck will get us laughed at, the dragon will get use KDE references
<wasabi> Okay. dpkg-divert question now. My package, during it's postinst, is auto generating new /etc/pam.d/common-* files. So, I want to move the old out of the wya.
<Amaranth> "they have a dragon for a logo but don't use KDE? wtf"
<wasabi> Proper way to do this... I'm using --divert --rename from orig to orig.dpkg-$pkgname
<Kamion> you can't divert conffiles, it doesn't work
<wasabi> Is that appropiate?
<wasabi> Oh?
<wasabi> Hmm.
<Kamion> oh, and in fact they're configuration files not conffiles
<Kamion> diversions work even less well on those
<wasabi> Heh.
<wasabi> Okay, so I should manually back them up.
<Kamion> changing /etc/pam.d/common-* from a package other than libpam-runtime is really pretty wrong
<Kamion> unless it's a local-use package only
<wasabi> Define local-use?
<Kamion> never intended to be uploaded to a distribution
<wasabi> Ahh.
<wasabi> Darn. =(
<wasabi> So what's the appropiate way to do this. I am trying to create a configuration program for krb5 and ldap.
<Kamion> oh, if it's a *program* doing it, not package maintainer scripts, that's ok
<jdub> night all
<Kamion> that counts as sysadmin action
<wasabi> Ahh, I should move this to a program then.
<wasabi> Makes sense.
<Kamion> package maintainer scripts generally aren't allowed to do that sort of thing because it's way too easy for packages to get installed for one reason or another
<wasabi> Yeah.
<wasabi> Last question for a bit. I have a file that has @FOO@ in it. I want to replace @FOO@ in that file with the contents of another file.
<wasabi> Including line feeds.
<Kamion> then you can just back them up to a name of your choice (not .dpkg-*)
<wasabi> One thing I'm concerned about is that I don't want the libpam-runtime postinst to attempt to replace the user's files on the next install.
<wasabi> Especially to ask for the diff.
<wasabi> Because it won't make sense to the target user group at all.
<Kamion> perl -pi -e 'BEGIN { open OTHERFILE, "otherfile" or die "open otherfile"; undef $/; $otherfile = <OTHERFILE>; chomp $otherfile; close OTHERFILE } s/@FOO@/$otherfile/g' file
<Kamion> or something like that
<wasabi> Fun.
<Kamion> if you look at libpam-runtime.postinst, it actually only copies in the templates on a fresh install
<Kamion> it doesn't do any diffing
<wasabi> Ahh. Didn't know that. My mistake.
<Kamion> well, no, it also updates the files if they're unmodified
<wasabi> Ahh but it detects modification.
<Kamion> but, either way, it should suit your purposes
<robitaille> jdub,  ping
<bob2> who is "charles-ubuntu"?
<bob2> and shouldn't people in the "Ubuntu Core Development Team" have some link to their real identity on launchpad?
<Lathiat> daniels: woo dude, that mesa update fixed nvidia gl on my laptop
<Lathiat> daniels: thankkyouuuuuuuuuuu
<Lathiat> :)
* Lathiat unsticks his u key
<mdke> it's about 24 hours that I've been seing this: Failed to fetch http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy-security/universe/binary-i386/Packages.gz  Sub-process bzip2 returned an error code (2)
<mdke> no one else sees it?
<bob2> why is bzip2 trying to unpack a .gz?
<Lathiat> daniels: hrm, it also fixed a missing function
<Lathiat> daniels: nice
<mdke> bob2, I don't know
<infinity> bob2 : It's not, apt just sucks at error messages.
<mdke> i did a dpkg-reconfigure on apt, still the same message
<infinity> IIRC, that Packages.gz string is hardcoded and reused for all "compressed Packages files"
<mdke> any idea what is the problem?
<infinity> mdke : rm /var/lib/apt/lists/sec* && apt-get update
<infinity> Do you still get the message?
<mdke> infinity, yes
<Mez|Away> lo infinity :D
<Mez|Away> infinity, do you have access to create breezy-backports so it doesnt 404
<infinity> Nope.
<mdke> infinity, is it a problem with the archive online?
<mdke> Mez|Away, that really needs to get sorted, it's the hugest bug ever
<infinity> mdke : I dunno dude, it Works For Me.
<mdke> :(
<infinity> Mez|Away : You get to bug elmo for that one, not me.
<mdke> infinity, is there just one security archive?
<infinity> Yes, only one host serves security.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> odd
<mdke> only universe gives me a problem
<bob2> infinity: hah
<jsgotangco> Riddell: awake?
<zakame> heya all
<zakame> wb zyga
<zyga> zakame: hello :-)
<zyga> how to efficiently talk to upstream?
<zyga> any upstream in general
<zakame> zyga: hang out at upstream's irc, if any? :)
<zyga> zakame: yesterday I had a conversation on #freedesktop and it was less than optimistic
<zakame> zyga: awww.. what' it about?
<zyga> zakame: I asked about any preferences for the 'gettext domain' key for .desktop files
<zyga> zakame: I was strongly suggested not to do it ;-)
<zyga> after explaining my reasoning I was urged to fix dpkg ;-)
<zakame> hmmm... how would dpkg be fixed? any breakage to be expected?
<zyga> zakame: it cannot handle subpackages, like if we wanted to have about 50 sub-packages with translations for each normal package
<zakame> hmmm, that's a lot of subpackages
<zyga> yeah
<zyga> anyway I was told to go and learn about packaging (which could be a good idea *anyway*, but the feeling was less than plesuralbe)
<zakame> well, implementing subpackages for dpkg would entail a new package format iirc, though I'm not intimate with dpkg/deb's internals
<zyga> zakame: it definitly would and I don't think that's a good idea
<zakame> hmmm...
<zakame> hmmm, libmecache isn't packaged yet, even in debian... only libmemcached for perl is...
<zakame> bye all, later
<ukh> I'm not an Ubuntu user, but I really want to contribute a patch on the Malone page.  What is the correct way to do that?  Or is there any kind of mail interface like with the BTS?
<blueyed_> ukh: I think you can attach it there, can't you?
<ukh> no, I just have a web interface allowing me to *paste*
<ukh> (I would take this over the BTS, but the debian maintainer isn't very cooperative, so it's really no use going via the BTS)
<rafl> elmo: ping
<ukh> blueyed_: and 156 lines of line-wrapped diff won't make anyone happy...
<rafl> elmo: It's a bit unrelated, but I only knew I can find you here. You created my @debian.org account yesterday, but I still did not get the mail. Could you please resend it?
<spayne> talking of debian.org emails, how do i get a @ubuntu.com email?
<bob2> by becoming a member
<zyga_desktop> spayne, become a member
<bob2> or working for canonical
<bob2> both ways lead to stupid amounts of spam
<bob2> so I'd not recommend publicising it if you have one
<spayne> zyga_desktop: i am a member!
<spayne> bob2: i am a member!
<bob2> maybe you already have it then
<spayne> is it a redirect?
<spayne> bob2: my launchpad page doesn't say i'm a member yet - does that make any difference?
<bob2> I'd assume so
<bob2> yes, it's a forward
<spayne> well, i'll just have to wait until a CC member adds me
<ukh> OK, let's turn it around.  Is there a way to mail a specific Malone member?  I refuse line-wrapped autoformatted patches.
<bob2> they may have blah@ubuntu.com
<ukh> in this case, the bug is assigned to "MOTU".
<bob2> perhaps going to #ubuntu-motu would be simpler
<bob2> if malone still fucks up patches, tho, that is quite shit
<ukh> still. I'm not an ubuntu user, just a frustrated debian user.  what *is* MOTU?
<spayne> Master of the Universe
<bob2> masters of the universe
<spayne> a Ubuntu Develop who has full upload rights to the archives
<bob2> the people who maintain all the packages in the universe section of the ubuntu archive
<bob2> spayne: no
<bob2> being able to upload to universe has a much lower bar than uploading to main
<spayne> bob2, can a MOTU upload to main?
<bob2> no
<bob2> some people in MOTU can upload to main, but in general, no
<ukh> oh well.  I'll mail it to the Ubuntu people on to of the debian/changelog and leave it at that.  :-/
<bob2> which is good, or else all of essential: yes would build-dep on cdbs and dpatch ;p
<pef> hello
<Akatemik> Where could I find the documentation of the home page for project casper?
<Akatemik> Unfortunately it is such a common name, that google doesn't give useful results.
<the--dud> www.google.com/linux
<the--dud> try that :)
<Akatemik> the--dud: Nope. Neither does "casber ubuntu" find anything relevant, it is only meantioned in the bootloaders
<Akatemik> s/casber/casper
<mpt> ukh, there's an "Add Attachment" link hidden in the box at the top right
<ukh> mpt: ha!  that was very well hidden!  thanks!
<ivoks> khm..
<ivoks> problems with ubuntu lists
<Kamion> Akatemik: I don't believe it has a home page
<Kamion> it's all in the source package
<zakame> hmm, if a source tarball is a .bz2, do I have to repackage it as .gz, or keep it as it is?
<Mez> elmo: ping
<Mez> (i cant be bothered to walk to the other side of the room)
<Mez> elmo: I dont know whats up, but I dont seem to be able to upload anymore
<Znarl> mez : Can I help?  What error message are you getting?
<Mez> Znarl: I'm just not getting anything back from katie, nothings ngesgoing to dapper-cha
<Mez> seems as if it's being silently discarded
<Znarl> Mez : ok, I can't help.  Have to wait for elmo to appear.  Sorry.
<Kamion> Mez: what package?
<Mez> Kamion, vrm
<Mez> s/vrm/vrms/
<Kamion> Mez: Rejected: Unknown distribution `unstable'.
<Mez> ah... lol
* Mez is retarded
<Mez> shouldnt katie email me about that?
<Kamion> should've done, yeah
<Mez> nothing back from katie :D
<Mez> something to do with the @ubuntu.com emails? 
<Kamion> can't help you there
<Mez> lets see if it works now
<seb128> infinity, lamont: could you give a retry to evolution / rhythmbox builds ?
<spayne> how is it going at Montreal?
<zakame> wb \sh 
<lamont> seb128: done
<seb128> lamont: thanks
<mdz> zul: the schedule for today is long since finalized
<zul> ok thanks anyways
<carl> i found a non-critical bug in gparted - what should I do?
<carl> like where do I post
<Burgundavia> carl, bugzilla
<Kamion> bugzilla.ubuntu.com
<jbailey> Wow, gparted is in main?
<Kamion> yes
<ogra> jbailey, yup, for express and the liveCd
<Kamion> for ubuntu-express
<mdz> zul: there will be further sessions, though; I'll see what can be done within scheduling constraints
<mdz> zul: but we can't push all kernel-related things to the end of the summit; we wouldn't get through what we need to discuss
<carl> does gparted have some sort of -v or log option so I can cut/paste instead of describing the GUI?
<dholbach> carl: no, not really
<wasabi_> So like, I really want to use Debconf, from a stand alone app.
<wasabi_> Is that wise?
<vbgunz> wasabi_: not a support channel... I think we just stay in here waiting for a dev to leak something... not sure :P
<wasabi_> Not really a support question. ;)
<vbgunz> wasabi_: hehe... :P
<Akatemik> Is there yet debootstrap fro dapper?
<carl> is there a way to see the last 10 bugzilla posts?
<carl> nm - found it
<carl> search between -1d and now
<giskard> hello
<giskard> i'm wodering if mako is still working for ubuntu
<Treenaks> no
<jsgotangco> no
<giskard> uhm
<jsgotangco> he's at MIT media labs now
<giskard> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember
<giskard> Upon approval by the council, you will need to "sign" a copy of the Code of Conduct. This can be done in two ways:
<giskard>    1. A cryptographic (GPG) signature on the text of the code itself sent to Benjamin Mako Hill
<jsgotangco> ahhh right
<jsgotangco> Mako is still with the Council
<giskard> ah ok :) 
<giskard> thank you :)
<jsgotangco> giskard: but now, you have to do that in launchpad
<spayne> giskard: go to your launchpad page
<spayne> giskard: and you will find it
<daniels> bradb: hey hey hey
<bradb> hey dudes
<giskard> I do not want to become an ud, i have read the blog of a person who wanted to become  :)
<giskard> thank you :) bye :)
<carstenh> pitti: hi, i guess you hava already talked about the firewall spec at ubz. any news or something important for me?
<pitti> carstenh: we haven't, we are just in the very first session
<carstenh> ok, i will ask you again in some days :)
<Kamion> Akatemik: there's been debootstrap for dapper since about an hour after I woke up the day after dapper opened
<daniels> Kamion: which raises the question, why were you asleep?
<jdub> mdz: ping
<carl> what does the ubuntu installer use to shrink an NTFS partition?
<carl> ntfsresize seems to shrink the fs, but not change the partition size
<carl> and gparted is being "weird" which I posted to bugzilla, and would like something else to help figure out what is wrong with gparted
<Kamion> daniels: oh, slacking, y'know
<Kamion> carl: ntfsresize
<Kamion> carl: and libparted to change the actual partition size
<CarlFK> how can I find what depends on libparted? 
<dredg> apt-cache rdepends
<zyga> awwwwwwwwwwwww
<zyga> latest evolution update killed my contacts
<zyga> did anyone notice this rather unfortunate event?
<mdke> i didn't notice an evolution update of any kind
<dholbach> zyga: me too - yay :)
<zyga> dholbach: :-)
* zyga wonders who to stalk at the next conference (maybe I'll attend0
<mdke> ah well if you're on dapper...
<zyga> yeah ;-)
<mdke> you can't complain
<mdke> :)
<zyga> mdke: I sure can complain but no-one will listen
<zyga> mdke: would you complain if some script by 'accident' did rm -rf /
<mdke> zyga, not if I was on dapper, no
<mdke> i'd file a bug
<mdke> and mark it very important
<zyga> heh ;)
<dieman> wow
<dieman> the launchpad user profile stuff works really well
<dieman> even account merging!
<dieman> shoot
<dieman> my wikiname is messed up now i think
<dieman> ahh
<dieman> there we go
<dieman> fixed it
<daniels> fabbione: xdm should be generally fixed now
<cas> Hi, A simple question but I couldn't find it. Is there a reason why ivman isn't included in the base install?
<Akatemik> Kamion: Yeah, I noticed when I checked the main dapper repo. Mirror I was looking didn't include it.
<cas> what "Source Package Name" in bugs I must select to report a wish item for dapper in launchpad/UBZ?
<haggai> pitti: hi, how did you transition the postgresql repo from cvs to arch? Did you get any of the tools to work?
<pef> slomo: hello, your correction for midnight-commander works fine for me ! (weird display in virtual console)
<slomo> pef: ok, fine :) thanks for reporting
<zyga> slomo: did mc finally get utf8 support?
<slomo> zyga: yes... works for me and a few others but would be nice if you could test it too ;)
<zyga> slomo: just point a finger :)
<slomo> zyga: when you use dapper you already have it ;)
<zyga> slomo: checking
* zyga is wary of upgrades
* zyga lost evolution's data ;/
<slomo> zyga: then get it from here http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/m/mc/
<slomo> zyga: 4.6.1-1ubuntu1
* zyga is using dapper already
<zyga> slomo: okay so....
<zyga> one thing worked :)
<zyga> other did not
<slomo> ok, which did work and which not? ;)
<zyga> locale menus worked 
<zyga> I have a folder called nihongo (in japanese) and that did not work
<zyga> it was displayed as small squares
<zyga> in vt, in X everything worked fine
<slomo> then your terminal font doesn't have the right characters
<slomo> oh... hmm
<slomo> yes probably that problem then ;)
<zyga> slomo: strange though
<slomo> why?
<zyga> slomo: debian-installer manages to show a whole zoo of characters on startup
<slomo> zyga: hmm... no idea... but when it works in X it shouldn't be mc's problem... i really think it's the terminal font... what happens when you write this characters by hand in a vt?
<zyga> slomo: I don't really know how do to that :)
<zyga> slomo: I created that folder in X with special input methods
<slomo> zyga: hehe... i don't know either :)
<zyga> how does one use kana on vt ... beats me :)
<zyga> any japanese developer around?
<dieman> heh
<dieman> the NetworkWideUpdates spec is something i may be able to work on at work
<shawarma> Does anyone know if the bounty program will continue in Dapper with new bounties?
<zyga> dieman: luck you
<zyga> s/\W\y\
<zyga> (I hope I got that right)
<dieman> yeah, something like that :)
<zyga> whooooah!!!
<zyga> anone with dapper
<zyga> can you run gvim
<dieman> i think mvo heard us sometime in the past on #ubuntu talking about it
<zyga> zyga@falcon:~$ gvim
<zyga> E25: GUI cannot be used: Not enabled at compile time
<slomo> zyga: works for me ;)
<zyga> slomo: really strange
<slomo> zyga: do you have vim-gnome installed?
<shawarma> zyga: you got vim-gtk? 
<zyga> slomo: no but I have menu entry
<zyga> I got neither
<slomo> zyga: strange, i have none ;)
<zyga> slomo: dpkg-query -S gvim shows that gvim.desktop is in vim not in vim-{gnome,gtk}
<zyga> smells like a bug
<dieman> makes me wish i setup some time for ubz and show up and stuff
<dieman> oh well
<slomo> zyga: yes... it is ;)
<zyga> arghh
<zyga> I broke launchpad again
<slomo> zyga: maybe prepare a debdiff to fix this? :)
<zyga> slomo: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/vim/+bug/3743
<zyga> not today :)
<zyga> vim is a hog to build on my laptop
<dieman> hah
<dieman> tickets to canada on short notice cost more money than god
<dieman> like $1k+
<dieman> $1600 non-stop ;)
* zyga has i18n stuff to think about
* zyga gets vim's source code
<zyga> aww damn yu
* zyga builds vim
<zyga> uhhh
<zyga> vim's build hangs on a broken patch (it asks for a file to patch)
<zyga> I think I'll leave this for the smart guys to solve 
<cevizoglu> what is the best UI toolkit to use if I want to share a good deal of the UI code with Carbon UI API's on Mac OS X?
<cevizoglu> GTK2?
<Amaranth> nothing, basically
<Amaranth> and that really isn't an #ubuntu-devel kind of question
<cevizoglu> why?
<Amaranth> this is a channel for people working on ubuntu to discuss things, not a channel for random developers using ubuntu
<cevizoglu> I thought that was what ubuntu-motu is for
<farruinn> I've found a broken dependency in dapper (python2.4-gnome2-extras), but I can't report it on bugzilla (says I must choose a component, but there is no component field on the form)
<Amaranth> no, ubuntu-motu is for people working on universe
<cevizoglu> so this channel is for someone working on any other part of ubuntu?
<Amaranth> for people working on main, basically
<cevizoglu> oh, I guess I got the wrong meaning for "ubuntu-development"
<cevizoglu> I will go away then
<spayne> night all
<ompaul> mako, u awake?
<mako> ompaul: yes
<daniels> Kamion: ping
#ubuntu-devel 2005-11-06
<mpt> cevizoglu, GNUstep
<mpt> tracks Cocoa pretty much
<mpt> Try #gnustep
<whiprush> man, what's with jdub's orange jumpsuit
<whiprush> the inmate look in or something?
<ajmitch> it's jdub. need you ask more?
* whiprush sees pics of aj
<ajmitch> surely not
<whiprush> the flickr box on fridge picked up magicfab's photos
<lupusBE> some packages depending on libnspr4 in dapper are broken because they require a lower version 
<lupusBE> anyone fixing this?
<bob2> lots of things are broken in dapper
<zul> heylo
<fernando> hi all
<fernando> E: Build-dependencies for mutt could not be satisfied.
<fernando> my sources.list and apt-get update, http://paste.ubuntulinux.nl/3911
<whiprush> jdub: dude ... what channel was I just on talking to you ... (busted terminal)
<robitaille> whiprush,  on ubuntu-sounder?
<whiprush> robitaille: I was talking to jdub about 5 minutes ago, and my terminal died, and I have no idea what channel it was on.
<whiprush> heh
<robitaille> whiprush,  it was on #ubuntu-sounder
<whiprush> not that one, I seem to be missing 5 minutes of conversation on some channel.
<whiprush> thanks
<robitaille> humm..it wasn't on any channel i'm on.  Too many of them...
<zakame> hi all
<zyga> morning
<pef> hello
<bob2> is /etc/ld.so.conf supposed to be non-existent on fresh breezy systems?
<bob2> (now X stuff is in /usr)
<mdke> geez no one replies to list on -devel
<hunger> Any chance of seeing xen in ubuntu soon, now that redhat commited to pushing it into the vanilla kernel?
<dholbach> hunger: the easiest thing is to write a specification and offer help with it
<hunger> dholbach: Xen is pretty "invasive". I can try to write up something, but this is nothing someone can do without serious backup from "management".
<dholbach> the first thing is to write a spec and gather people around it
<hunger> dholbach: Either it is adding a new architecture for the kernels or it is changing the default kernel to be a xen kernel and use xen everywhere.
<hunger> dholbach: Is there a spec-writting howto?
<dholbach> http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+specs has quite a bunch of already good-looking specs - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecTemplate has a template
* hunger wonders whether an outsider like me is the right person to write a spec.
<kent> will there be videos or audiorecordings from UBZ?  It would be fun to listen/watch.. 
<dholbach> morning sabdfl 
<Mez> there are videos from the lightning talks... dont know about anything else.
<Mez> dont know if the videos will be shared either
<dholbach> treenaks is the video master
<sabdfl> video's for everybody!
* zyga would like UBZ to end very soon
<hunger> zyga: Yeap... nobody is producing debs anymore;-)
<zyga> hunger: no, I'm excited about some new things coming to ubuntu and no-one is here to talk about them :-)
<zyga> everyone is out there *g*
<hunger> zyga: Yes, I do feel somewhat out of the loop, too.
<hunger> zyga: Of course I'm just a curious bystander with no need to be in the loop but anyway:-)
<the--dud> the ubuntu-devel mailinglist is terribly quiet now under UBZ
<the--dud> quite freaky hehe
<zyga> hunger: I'm out of the loop but I run across the road from time to time
<hunger> zyga: You are in montreal (or where was UBZ?)
<hunger> zyga: Lucky you... canada is *NICE*.
<zyga> hunger: no I'm faar away from canada
<zyga> hunger: I'm from Poland and I run across the loop virtually
<pitti> carstenh: ah, firewall is today 1430
<Yagisan> pitti: firewall ?
<pitti> Yagisan: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/firewall
<pitti> slomo: ping
<Yagisan> pitti: If I understand correctly, you will discuss setting up a personal firewall, rather then say ubuntuising ipcop ?
<slomo> pitti: pong
<pitti> slomo: mplayer warty+hoary FTBFS on powerpc
<pitti> Yagisan: s_personal_Ubuntu/Debian specific_
<zyga> pitti: hello :)
<slomo> pitti: uh? hmm, can you give me the buildlog? it's not here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/m/mplayer/
<pitti> slomo: your email?
<slomo> pitti: mail@slomosnail.de
<Yagisan> pitti: thanks.
<slomo> pitti: and both worked fine here on x86... :/
<pitti> slomo: I sent you all three logs (but don't worry about ia64)
<slomo> pitti: uh... that's nothing caused by the patch... it was broken before it seems :( 
<pitti> slomo: but we have a deb in hoary (however, not in warty)
<pitti> mplayer-powerpc | 1:1.0-pre6-0.3ubuntu5 | hoary/multiverse | powerpc
<ivoks> hi guys
<slomo> pitti: ubuntu5, yes... but the newest was ubuntu6 :/
<pitti> ah, too bad
<pitti> ok, let's forget about that then
<pitti> slomo: I release the i386/amd64 packages now
<slomo> ok, thanks :)
<slomo> at least in breezy mplayer was buildable on all 3 arches at release time ;)
<pitti> slomo: breezy was not vulnerable to that issue?
<slomo> pitti: no... i fixed it weeks before release while i was doing other stuff with mplayer
<pitti> nice
<carstenh> pitti: ok, thanks.
<pitti> carstenh: is it possible for you to be online at that time, in case questions arise?
<carstenh> sure, 14:30 in which timezoe?
<pitti> carstenh: we are -5 here
<pitti> carstenh: e. g. 20:30 CET
<carstenh> ok, i'll be there :)
<pitti> carstenh: thanks
<zyga> issue to think about
<zyga> if we use utf8 by default we could gain significant memory savings by converting all .mo files to use utf8
<zyga> that saves iconv runs and memory duplication
<zyga> pitti: ^^^
<pitti> zyga: this shuold be handled by the Rosetta output
<zyga> pitti: rosetta always keeps existing encoding
<zyga> (on export)
<zyga> and carlos said that's the preferred way
<pitti> zyga: by default yes, but we might tell it to convert it to UTF-8 on langpack export
<pitti> carlos: ^
<carlos> zyga, I think that it would cause problems with some applications that are not UTF-8 friendly if the user has an UTF-8 locale (as ubuntu does by default)
<zyga> carlos: such apps could be crashed in dapper devel run
<zyga> carlos: and the majority of apps gains 1/2 memory less used
<carlos> zyga, I can do that special export easily, but I'm a bit concerned about it....
<pitti> carlos: but gettext does automatic conversion anyway, doesn't it?
<zyga> carlos: we could build a blacklist
<zyga> pitti: yes but it pulls memory 
<zyga> pitti: if the .mo file is utf8 and the output is utf8 then you only get one mmap 
<pitti> zyga: I mean, if apps run in latin1, they can still use utf8 mo files
<carlos> pitti, you can disable that
<zyga> pitti: yes
<carlos> pitti, in fact, GNOME applications 'disable' it and force UTF-8
<zyga> carlos: exactly
<zyga> the more utf8 we have the better
<zyga> legacy encodings only cause problems in the long run
<carlos> zyga, you don't need to convince me, it's just something that we should handle with upstream, that's all
<carlos> at least that's my opinion
<pitti> sounds sane
<pitti> in the long run upstreams will convert anyway (most of them)
<zyga> carlos: upstream can keep using their version, usually legacy encodings come from legacy systems and legacy translators, not for some real need
<zyga> pitti: did you hear about .desktop gettext support? :)
<carstenh> pitti: do you care about ipv6 for dapper?
<carlos> pitti, if you want to play with all .po files as UTF-8 is your choice, file a bug and I will change the code to produce the language packs as UTF-8 exports
<pitti> carstenh: doesn't breezy support ipv6?
<carlos> pitti, I will not have time to test dapper for errors, that's why I'm not too excited about it, that's all
<pitti> carlos: we could build the first dapper langpack with it, just to try it out
<carstenh> pitti: breezies kernel does not support stateful package filtering for ipv6
<zyga> pitti: I second that idea
<carlos> pitti, sure
<pitti> carlos: ok
<carlos> pitti, zyga file a bug about it with High priority so as soon as dapper opens at launchpad so we have something to export
<zyga> pitti: I've patched some libs and gnome can use gettext for .desktop files ATM
<carlos> I will change it
<zyga> carlos: sure
<Yagisan> carstenh: IIRC no kernels do stateful filtering on ipv6 yet
<carlos> zyga, really?, please, mail us the patch so we can take a look
<carstenh> pitti: when the firewall should support ipv6 the kernel needs a patch
<zyga> carlos: they are online already
<carlos> zyga, thank you for working on it
<carstenh> Yagisan: yes, that is the problem
<carlos> zyga, URL?
<zyga> carlos: added that to the specs, one sec
<carlos> ok
<zyga> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/langpacks-desktopfiles
<zyga> carlos: both patches are attached to the bugs
<carlos> ok
<zyga> carlos: it works but I didn't test performance yet
<carlos> zyga, if you would do some performance tests with and without your changes that would be really cool
<carlos> so we can ask upstream again to include it (if the performance is good enough)
<zyga> carlos: I plan to really, if performance sucks I'll write a gettext proxy and see how that helps
<carlos> zyga, we should use some kind of cache
<zyga> carlos: there are some serious issues that need to be addressed 
<carlos> zyga, so we only read the .mo once per session
<zyga> carlos: I was thinking about a gettextd that builds /var/cache/gettext but IPC could harm the performance
<zyga> carlos: or simply build one .mo file for all .desktop files
<zyga> carlos: but that's an issue with another lengthy rebuild every upgrade
<zyga> mvo: ping, around? :)
<carlos> zyga, dude, a daemon for this is completely a waste of resources...
<zyga> carlos: I was worried about it too ;-)
<zyga> carlos: but when you need to open a 100 of .mo files and a 100 of .desktop files it will kill startup easily
<zyga> carlos: such daemon (or cache in other way) could reduce that to 2 files
<zyga> and that would really help 
<Lathiat> we simply need a single file cache of /usr/share/applications
<zyga> Lathiat: yes, but after decoupling the translations we need a second cache for all the .mo files
<Lathiat> why decouple the translations?
<Lathiat> they can be stuck in the cache
<Lathiat> a single slightly big file isnt a proabbly
<Lathiat> 350 tiny files is
<zyga> Lathiat: hmm
<zyga> Lathiat: true
<zyga> Lathiat: but what could rebuild/invalidate that cache?
<Lathiat> like you could read in a 10M file happily
<Lathiat> reading in 350 200K files sucks
<zyga> Lathiat: I agree but I'd say using two caches is easier
<Lathiat> zyga: well, 350 50K
<Lathiat> zyga: so realistically you want the packages to ask for updates
<zyga> Lathiat: one for gettext is easy (easy to build, easy to patch)
<Lathiat> but youd probably want some kind of inotify daemon
<Lathiat> i guess
<zyga> Lathiat: I don't know how to get .desktop cache as I don't know the source that good
<zyga> carlos, pitti: I'd love to hear your comments on those patches
<Lathiat> zyga: really need to talk to someone a little smarter than i
<Lathiat> for the specifics
<carlos> zyga, does gnome-panel read all .desktop files every time you open the menu?
<zyga> carlos: I'm not sure but it does listen to changes in /usr/share/applications
<carlos> zyga, we are a bit busy atm as soon as we get some spare time will look into the patches, UBZ you know...
<zyga> carlos: more than fine :-)
<carlos> zyga, that means that it only reads the .desktop files again if they change
<zyga> carlos: it probably reads them every time something changes
<zyga> carlos: yes, and it leaks alot of memory at that time
<zyga> (really really bad feature)
<carlos> zyga, so you can just store that translation into memory instead of the english string
<zyga> carlos: hmm?
<carlos> zyga, it stores the menu into memory
<zyga> carlos: right
<zyga> carlos: and?
<carlos> zyga, if you store the translation at that time, you have there the cache feature too
<zyga> carlos: that's not the same
<zyga> carlos: I want to cache .mo files, not .desktop files yet
<zyga> carlos: for every .desktop file it needs to open corresponding .mo file and that kills performance
<carlos> zyga, it makes no sense to cache .mo files when you only want two strings from every .mo file...
<zyga> carlos: right
<zyga> carlos: so we need to cache the looked up strings somewhere :)
<carlos> zyga, that happens only the first time you read all menu entries
<carlos> zyga, the gnome-panel does it already for us!
<zyga> carlos: no, the issues is that in the ideal world we'd have a .desktop = .mo relationship
<zyga> carlos: but that means, that on startup for every .desktop file we also need to open a corresponding .mo file (gettext does that for us using lots of stats into various locations)
<zyga> carlos: we can cache both things, multiple .desktop files and .multiple .mo files
<zyga> carlos: the latter are easier because we could build a .mo file that contains only .desktop-relevant stuff
<Mez> where cna i fie bugs against katie?
<zyga> carlos: that's why I wanted a gettext daemon that can build a persistent cache, this would (after one run) reduce the number of open calls to 1
<zyga> carlos: I'd love to discuss this in #u-desktop when you've got the time
<carlos> zyga, you cannot implement this feature doing the implementation 100% depending on the .mo file
<carlos> we want to share that with upstream and we can do it easily without depending on .mo files
<carlos> so the distros that want (Ubuntu and Sun Solaris) can use .mo files
<carlos> and the others will stay with current implementation
<carlos> that means that we should be compatible with old .desktop files we are adding an optional improvement
<carlos> zyga, I'm sure that a full new way to handle translations would be faster or better, but we should try to share as much code as possible with upstream and upstream already said that they don't want a solution that depends on gettext
<zyga> carlos: this is 100% optional
<zyga> carlos: the domain lookup takes preference, if possible
<zyga> carlos: all existing functionality is preserved
<zyga> carlos: eh, gettext is really good, I don't understand that argument
<zyga> carlos: as you have argued on the xdg mailing list
<zyga> carlos: this is an optional argument
<carlos> zyga, but it's done only once and on startup time and we can preload the .mo files into memory like we do (or I think we did)  with hoary
<zyga> carlos: yes we can
<carlos> zyga, the problem with a single .mo po file is that the strings come from different packages
<zyga> carlos: but it's still a significant number of files
<zyga> carlos: yes and it needs to be rebuilt on every update somehow, that's bad
<carlos> zyga, I think we should do it step by step
<zyga> carlos: anyway I think we should check if that works fine now
<carlos> first using what we have atm
<zyga> carlos: if the performance is really bad we can work that out later or revert the changes anyway
<carlos> and then, after some performance checks, start to optimize it
<carlos> right
<zyga> carlos: the one thing difficult to do with preloading is that it's locale dependent
<zyga> you need to check  /usr/share/locale/$FOO/LC_MESSAGES/*.mo
<carlos> zyga, you can preload the default locale
<carlos> zyga, the amount of computers that use multiple locales is low compared to the ones that use a single one
<zyga> carlos: agreed!
<carlos> anyway, that's already an optimization, so...
<carlos> koke, they removed the ban?
<zyga> ca,
<koke> carlos: it seems so
<zyga> carlos: my plans are 1) make sure it's not buggy 2) make sure it has good performance 3) promote upstream
<Mez> koke: for how long
<carlos> zyga, 2b) land it into Dapper
<zyga> carlos: :-)
<zyga> carlos: right :-)
<zyga> carlos: 2c) support me at the CC ;-P
<carlos> you need it first inside dapper so upstream can see it working
<zyga> true
<carlos> zyga, I'm not an Ubuntu developer, not sure if I would help there ;-)
<zyga> carlos: are you a member?
<carlos> zyga, no, at least I'm not aware of it
<zyga> carlos: strange I thought you were employed by cannonical
<daniels> zyga: not all canonical employees are ubuntu members or developers
<zyga> ah, I see
<daniels> Mez: it's not coming back
<carlos> zyga, I am, but working on Rosetta
<Mez> daniels ???
<daniels> Mez: the k-line
<Mez> oh, good :D
<Kamion> carlos: dapper == enterprise release, not great for new/experimental code
<Kamion> dapper+1, sure
<Mithrandir> Kamion: what, no shiny bling?
<Kamion> "rigid and boring"
<Mithrandir> but, but, I want xglx and luminocity on my server!
<zyga> Kamion: but dapper is technically breezy+1 and breezy is out for a few weeks
<carlos> Kamion, does it mean that we are not going to add new features?
<Mez> Kamion: any idea why I'm not recieving any mail from katie?
<Mithrandir> I want to throw my Xen instances around
* Mithrandir should stop trolling and go draft instead.
<Kamion> zyga: dapper will be an enterprise release, supported for five years; we are being very conservative about what we add to it
<Kamion> I've mentioned this to you before
<Kamion> carlos: cautiously
<\sh> Mithrandir: wait for redhat :) they want to integrate Xen into RHEL 5 ,-)
<\sh> Mithrandir: in a 2 months timeframe
<Mithrandir> \sh: with xglx and luminocity?
<Kamion> dude, we have xglx in dapper ;)
<Mithrandir> shiny
* Mithrandir installs
<carlos> Kamion, ok
<Kamion> (but it doesn't affect anything else unless you choose to install it ...)
<tseng> Mithrandir: WOBBLE
<\sh> Mithrandir: well...i didn't read the specs...but there was the announcement today from redhat (or yesterday on eweek)
<Mithrandir> Couldn't find any package whose name or description matched "luminocity"
<Mithrandir> tseng: yeah, wobble.
<jdub> Kamion: s/enterprise/long-term supported/ :-)
<Kamion> jdub: whatEVAH
<Mithrandir> jdub: semantics :-P
<jdub> good sematics though :)
<daniels> Mithrandir: not yet
<daniels> Mithrandir: probably today or tomorrow, depends on how bored I get
<Kamion> We received a request from the user named 'Jeff Waugh (jdub)' trying to join the team 'Ubuntu Members', but
<Kamion> [...] 
<Kamion> I'm so declining this
<Mithrandir> who's this Jeff Waugh ANYWAY?
<tseng> and what is he good for?
<tseng> if not wobbly windows
<Mithrandir> he doesn't wobble.  much.
<spayne> afternoon all
<zyga> can anyone test nautilus crash for me?
<spayne> zyga: is this Dapper?
<zyga> spayne: yes
<spayne> zyga: ach! sorry i only have it running under pbuilder :(
<spayne> and my other laptop is busy atm 
<zyga> open a folder with nfs mountable folder inside, mount the folder outside of nautilus, open the folder in nautilus
<zyga> the folder was not user-mountable 
<zyga> WaterSevenUb: hello! :)
<WaterSevenUb> zyga, hey!:) Holiday in here :-p
<zyga> WaterSevenUb: same here, the day of the dead
<WaterSevenUb> zyga, yeah:)
<spayne|laptop> looks like *ubuntu.com is down
<Mez> www.ubuntu.com is
<spayne|laptop> Mez: what's p?
<Mez> dunno
<Mez> I'm just saying - it's down here too
<spayne|laptop> Mez: p.u.c is down
<spayne|laptop> jdub: can i run something by you for the fridge?
<tseng> spayne|laptop: are you still expecting the tech board to do something about ifolder today?
<spayne|laptop> tseng: possibly, yes
<spayne|laptop> tseng: the iFolder guys seem to have some positive stuff
<tseng> why did they not reply the to mailing list thread
<spayne|laptop> tseng: looks like Flaim may be Open Sourced soon
<spayne|laptop> tseng: good question...let me find out
<tseng> again
<tseng> what does this have to do with the Tech Board
<tseng> (no one answered this either)
<tseng> its their software to license as theyd like
<spayne|laptop> tseng: i answered but it is stuck in my SMTP queue
<mjg59> If it can be legally redistributed, it can go in Multiverse and iFolder (if it depends on it) can go in there as well. If you think it could be put in Debian main, it can go in Universe and so can iFolder.
<mjg59> So. Uhm.
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: it is complicated as a lot of the licnesing isnt documented well
<tseng> mjg59: its completely non-distributable as it stands
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: which is hopefully what we are going to discuss
<tseng> mjg59: but that discussion has nothing at all to do with the tech board
<mjg59> spayne|laptop: Why not document the licensing rather than talk about doing so?
<spayne|laptop> tseng: boyd said that he has seen it and thought what was going to be discussed later
<tseng> sigh
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: as i understand, Flaim DB is used by Groupwise and many other Novel products and is non-redistriutable with anyone apart from Novell
<the--dud> canonical.com is down as well :o
<tseng> all the relevant parties understand the problem
<spayne|laptop> tseng: don't blame me :-)
<tseng> please do not waste peoples time trying to get patted on the back or something
<mjg59> spayne|laptop: So we know it's undistributable. They know it's undistributable. *What is going to be discussed*?
<spayne|laptop> tseng: he has idea idea why the others didn't respond
<mjg59> We can't do anything about it until the situation is rectified
<tseng> mjg59++
<tseng> NOTOURBUG
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: the manager has been to the legal/flaim department about getting Flaim open sourced for Ubuntu use
<mjg59> spayne|laptop: I hope you mean "open sourced for anyone's use"
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: i don't know - hopefully yes
<mjg59> ?
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: i'm in the inbetween guy remember
<mjg59> Wow.
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: what?
<tseng> you are the guy that took over for the inbetween guy
<mjg59> spayne|laptop: This still doesn't tell me what's actually going to be discussed.
<Robot101> open source for ubuntu's use is meaningless
<daniels> so what do you intend to talk to the TB about?
<tseng> which is extremely frustrating
<tseng> spayne|laptop: please take it off the agenda
<daniels> you're going to discuss with the TB how someone else is doing something non-specific which no-one knows about?
<spayne|laptop> tseng: why? dholbach suggested it
<tseng> spayne|laptop: youve proved the point i think
<spayne|laptop> tseng: proved what point? why has this been left till today
<mjg59> tseng: If Novell people are expecting to turn up, it should probably be left there. It looks bad otherwise.
<mjg59> spayne|laptop: It would be helpful if you could flesh out the agenda item.
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: what do you mean?
<mjg59> At the moment I have no idea what's supposed to be discussed or what sort of decisions are supposed to be made.
<mjg59> The tech board isn't there to be told things. It's there to make decisions.
<daniels> what can it decide?
<mjg59> So frame the discussion in such a way that there's a decision to be made.
<mjg59> If there's no decision to be made, then it shouldn't have been brought up. That's unfortunate, but we'll have to live with it.
<spayne|laptop> daniels: listening to what Novell have to say and decide if it is satisfactory for ubuntu inclusion
<mjg59> spayne|laptop: That will depend entirely on what the LICENSE file in the tarball says.
<daniels> spayne|laptop: so is a novell representative coming?
<daniels> spayne|laptop: if so, then yes, I can see how that would be useful
<spayne|laptop> daniels: most of the iFolder team yes
<daniels> i see
<tseng> i will not be a fan of any agreements that dont satisfy DFSG
<mjg59> And the conclusion there is obvious - if it's distributable, it can be accepted. If it's Free, then it can go in Universe.
<spayne|laptop> daniels: the manager for the whole iFolder project is coming
<spayne|laptop> tseng: i'd love a situation that complies with the DFSG but i think getting packages into Ubuntu is the most important issue atm
<spayne|laptop> tseng: as it is limiting the appeal of iFolder
<spayne|laptop> tseng: but i'd love something that is DFSG as well
<mjg59> spayne|laptop: You realise that putting iFolder in multiverse is limiting its appeal anyway
<mjg59> As long as it's out there, it can never be on the CDs
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: not as much as the moment - there are NO packages
<Xof> daniels: regarding Ubuntu bugzilla #17002, can I ask whether you need any more information?  (It's still tagged as NEEDINFO)
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: but any packages are better than no packages 'at the moment'
<mjg59> spayne|laptop: Don't lose track of the big issue here. We're a Free software distribution.
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: i am aware of that
<mjg59> Putting stuff in multiverse should only happen if it's software that people really can't do without
<tseng> lunch
<tseng> sorry.
<spayne|laptop> tseng: have fu
<spayne|laptop> hey ogra
<mjg59> We shouldn't be advertising multiverse. It's "Oh, yeah, we include some non-free shit if you really need it", not "And in multiverse we have this REALLY COOL STUFF"
<mjg59> If you're happy with this stuff in Multiverse, then cool. But that means iFolder gets relegated, and we're not going to talk about how cool it is.
<\sh> ifolder is not cool when it's not free...
<daniels> Xof: finding out if it works with -driver-ati 6.8.2-75 would be interesting
<mjg59> I'd love to have iFolder goodness, but if it's in multiverse then I really don't care
<elarson> \sh, remember just flaim is not cool b/c _it_ is not free :)
<spayne|laptop> Flaim is bad, i agree
<spayne|laptop> but if it can be Open Sourced in a reasonable timeframe....
<Mez> spayne|laptop, as I said in #ifolder
<Robot101> ... then it's something Novell just has to do, nothing to do with us :)
<Mez> until ifolder is under a licence that is compatible with ubuntu/DFSG then there is nothing to be discussed
<mjg59> spayne|laptop: If it can be, then excellent. We can't do that for them.
<Mez> (within ubuntu)
<spayne|laptop> Mez: but we don't know what might be happening
<mjg59> Nnngh.
<Mez> which is why people like you an i keep on top of it
<Mez> the tech board DONT need to know
<mjg59> spayne|laptop: I /will/ point out now that the tech board meeting is going to be keeping me away from the pub, so if it turns into a huge discussion that's not actually relevent to the tech board I won't be very pleased
<Mez> spayne|laptop, I seriously suggest you take it off the agenda
<Mez> it is NOT relevant at the moment
<Robot101> they could send an e-mail for example :P
<Mez> and Calvin and I are talking via email about making changes to it to make it compatible with ubuntu/DFSG
<spayne|laptop> why is everyone get at me at the moment? i added it several days ago as well as a mailing list post
<spayne|laptop> why is this coming up now?
<mjg59> Because the discussion started now
<mjg59> That's the way things tend to happen in the real world
<Mez> spayne|laptop, because we're just reviewing the list of agenda items now, before we go to the meeting
<spayne|laptop> Mez: i will remove it and ask the guys not to come
<mjg59> But, as I said, if the Novell guys are expecting to turn up, then we might as well go ahead with it
<mjg59> We can quickly make the situation clear so there's no potential for misunderstanding
<mjg59> (Speaking with my tech board hat on)
<spayne|laptop> mjg59: fair enough
<spayne|laptop> FYI: The TB iFolder thing is cancelled
<spayne|laptop> the iFolder guys aren't coming
<spayne|laptop> and nothing is happening
<spayne|laptop> tseng, mjg59: there you do
<spayne|laptop> *go
<spayne|laptop> well, there you go then
<spayne|laptop> tseng: you'll be happy
<spayne|laptop> as will mjg59
<spayne|laptop> THEY ARE GOING TO OPEN SOURCE Flaim!
<Robot101> that's good. ifolder can go into ubuntu then. :)
<spayne|laptop> just because i tried to push and push ;-)
<slomo> spayne|laptop: good news :)
<spayne|laptop> slomo: i'm glad you agree so that those who were eager to critise before aren't interested now :-(
<daniels> spayne|laptop: please stop being a cock
* spayne|laptop stops now
<daniels> spayne|laptop: regardless of whether or not it was a worthwhile idea (fwiw, I think it was if the iFolder guys were actually coming, as mjg59 said), you're just being disruptive and derailing the channel
<spayne|laptop> daniels: i apologise - i didn't want to cause any harm
<slomo> daniels: will the dbus package get a monodoc package with the libdbus-1-cil docs? or will you accept a debdiff which does this?
<daniels> slomo: debdiff cheerfully accepted
<slomo> daniels: ok, i'll send you a mail with it later... against the 0.50 package in debian/experimental or ours?
<daniels> slomo: against 0.50 would be nice, since I'm going to rebase our packages against that
<slomo> daniels: ok, fine :)
<zyga> did anyone actually test server install on a small HDD?
<zyga> I just checked that on 0.5GB partition it cannot be installed at all
<zyga> I'll reinstall on 1,6GB to check if that works
<zyga> I guess it needs 400 after the install but it needs way more during
<snikker> hi, how can i replace a .deb package with the old version without remove the dependencies?
<spayne> use force in synaptic?
<spayne> or --force
<carstenh> snikker: apt-get install package=version and next time use #ubuntu please, thanks
<snikker> carstenth: ok i try... sorry, if i've posted here but no ones can help me in #ubuntu :-(
<Kamion> I'm sorry but #ubuntu-devel isn't an escalated support channel, even if nobody can help in #ubuntu
<carstenh> snikker: hint: you do not need to remove the old package before you install a new one. dpkg (the package-manager backend) does this automatically for you
<Kamion> please take the help back to #ubuntu - thanks :)
<slomo> daniels: ok, nm... the package in debian/experimental already has this ;) only ours doesn't...
<daniels> slomo: okay, so we'll get it for free
<snikker> carstenth: yes, but i must do a downgrade, not an update...
<slomo> daniels: but when you base our packages on this you probably have to wait for monodoc 1.1.9... which waits for xsp to get into main
<daniels> slomo: *grunt*
<slomo> daniels: i planned to talk to mdz after UBZ about moving xsp into main... shouldn't be a problem as we only need the base package with some scripts in main for monodoc
<the--dud> whats xsp?
<slomo> the--dud: asp.net stuff
<the--dud> ah, ok... know little about that
<tseng> spayne: great, thanks alot
<shaya> anyone seen mdz?
<spayne> tseng: so, all my wailing and complaining got us somewhere afterall ;-)
<pitti> carstenh: here?
<carstenh> pitti: yes
<pitti> carstenh: nice. Bof starts in about 5 minutes
<carstenh> ok
<pitti> carstenh: is there anything in particular you would like us to talk about?
<carstenh> pitti: maybe if ipv6 should be supported
<carstenh> pitti: and if yes how a) stateless b) hope that someone writes a proper patch that is usable
<carstenh> (the one that exists are old and not that good, because they just copy and paste a lot of code)
<pitti> carstenh: but that does not have anything to do with your scripts, right?
<carstenh> pitti: i use some kind of generic language and that is translated in iptables commands
<carstenh> pitti: so the only thing that need to be changed are some additional functions that enable stateful packet filtering
<carstenh> ... for ipv6
<carstenh> but that is only a small part of the whole tool
<Keybuk> REMINDER: Ubuntu Technical Board meeting in 10 minutes on #ubuntu-meeting
<ivoks> 10?
<spayne> it starts in 8 minuts now
<ivoks> ah, -1 hour happend :)
<Keybuk> we think our math is right :p
* Mithrandir hugs UTC
<mdz> mjg59: ping
<pitti> carstenh: sorry, if you said something, please say it again
<pitti> carstenh: what do you mean by "special P2P rule"?
<carstenh> pitti: i don't use p2p, so i dont know which one are packaged for ubuntu and which not
<pitti> carstenh: that's mentioned in the fw spc
<pitti> spec, even
<carstenh> pitti: we should provide a rule for the p2p tools that are not part of ubuntu but often used
<pitti> carstenh: you mean allow all processes to connect to ports >= 1024?
<carstenh> pitti: but not open every port >1023
<pitti> carstenh: so what then?
<carstenh> pitti: no, i.e. users commonly install kazza from 3rd party and some other tools to
<pitti> carstenh: I'm not so familiar with P2P protocols, do they have a restricted set of ports?
<carstenh> pitti: we provide a rule listen: 1234-1267, 1299
<Amaranth> ha
<Amaranth> they run all over the place
<carstenh> pitti: yes, they have
<Amaranth> and the day a new one comes out with a new port people start bitching about how ubuntu is broken
<pitti> carstenh: ok, fine
<carstenh> pitti: 1234-1267 is for p2p tool #1 and 1299 for p2p tool #2
<pitti> well, let's put that into "future improvements"
<carstenh> but only nessasary for 3rd party tools of course
<pitti> since intially we want to have all ports open by default anyway
<carstenh> ok, thats fine for me
<pitti> ta
<carstenh> do we want that really?
<zyga> guys what about integrated firewall with rules for every p2p app that ships with ubuntu?
<Amaranth> it doesn't hurt if nothing is listening on those ports by default
<carstenh> jeffs idea was to open only required ports to prevent trojan horses etc. to listen to incoming connections
<pitti> carstenh: initially, until all packages ship a policy
<carstenh> sure
<carstenh> zyga: every app should provide their own rules
<carstenh> zyga: we just talked about additional rules for p2p tools commonly installed fron non-ubuntu sources
<zyga> carstenh: is there no way to package those tools?
<N6REJ> I need some help please.  Apprently I have "threaded perl" installed currently and need to change that for interchange to operate well.  Can you please advise me as to what to do?
<zyga> are they non-free?
<daniels> N6REJ: that's probably better suited for #ubuntu
<N6REJ> oh, i'm sorry, I asked paul and belutz, as I normally am in offtopic and they didn't know... thought maybe as developers y'all would know better what part did the threading.
<carstenh> zyga: i even don't know if they exist ;) of course would packaging them be the better way. i think i should ask on #ubuntu how people install their skype, kazzaa...
<zyga> carstenh: well to 'support unofficiall p2p apps' we need to know them first
<carstenh> zyga: sure, i guess other people know if they exist :)
<zyga> carstenh: right
<pitti> carstenh: would you be fine with splitting the spec into kraal and kraal-gtk?
<carstenh> yes, sure
<pitti> carstenh: there are currently no spec details about the gtk gui (ui mockups, and so on)
<pitti> so this should be detailed
<carstenh> pitti: so i should add some details (i.e. screenshots) to the gui-part after split
<pitti> carstenh: would be nice; just some ui mockup, so that the ui usability can be discussed before actually implementing it
<carstenh> pitti: ok, i'll do that. but after your meeting ;)
<carstenh> do you plan to discuss that part this week on ubz?
<N6REJ> I need to change perl to "non-threaded perl" and nobody seems to know how, can someone help me please?
<carstenh> N6REJ: did you already ask on i.e. #ubuntu and #linux?
<Amaranth> N6REJ: You were already told this isn't the right channel for that. Anyway I think you need to compile from source to get it.
<N6REJ> not in #linux but yes in #ubuntu  I wouldn't think #linux would be the place cause they don't know ubuntu packages
<N6REJ> Amaranth: please don't get that tone with me... I give as much as I can back to the group.... I'm asking here for a reason!
<carstenh> N6REJ: some know debian and ubuntu packages, not everybody outside this channel uses gentoo or slackware
<N6REJ> carstenh: I agree.  I realise you guys are busy, and I only asked here because nobody else knows, and I ASSUMED you folks would know the packaging.
<Amaranth> N6REJ: I didn't have a "tone" with you, I was stating a fact. Now I think I'm about to have a "tone", though.
<N6REJ> Amaranth: I can go there!
<N6REJ> after all I would think the purpose of this channel aside from developers of ubuntu talking to each other would be for questions regarding HOW ubuntu is packaged.
<N6REJ> and/or how those packages interact.
<daniels> N6REJ: amaranth is right -- it's really the sort of support question for #ubuntu, and inappropriate for development.
<N6REJ> daniels: ok, I'll accept that prima facie (sp?) but then please tell me this, what IS the purpose of the dev channel if you can't find out what packages do what?
<N6REJ> daniels: escpecially when ubuntu doesn't know.
<N6REJ> I'm asking honestly, not to be snotty.
<tseng> it is assumed when you get here you can make a best effort at fixing a bug or creating new packages or something like that.. the focus is on the discussion of these activities
<Kamion> N6REJ: honestly, when you said "the purpose of this channel aside from developers of ubuntu talking to each other", there isn't an aside - we can't have this channel be an escalated support channel or we won't get anything done
<daniels> N6REJ: it's for discussing changes, mainly
<Kamion> I'm sorry if that's inconvenient, but we have time constraints
<N6REJ> nope, not inconvient... I understand.
<Kamion> and when developers have time to work on answering questions, they'll be in #ubuntu :)
<Kamion> if #ubuntu doesn't know, I suggest you try e-mail instead (ubuntu-users@lists.ubuntu.com), since most people aren't on IRC 24/7; failing that, if you absolutely have to have an answer and can't figure it out, there's always the support request mechanism
<N6REJ> Please take note of this though....... as ubuntu CURRENTLY stands, documentation/support for "SERVER" is not very good.  I'm not very good at documentation or I would attempt to fix it.  I have fixed what I knew to be wrong in the wiki's.  I have submitted the bug-reports that I can validate.  I have an OLDER machine that after I get some "cool down time" and can dedicate time to y'all I'll...
<N6REJ> ...work with
<N6REJ> brb 911 here
<magnon> N6REJ: work is going on this week to ensure dapper's awesomeness on the server. It'll be better. :-)
<N6REJ> crud!!! some jerk just shattered the window on my bus!
<carstenh> N6REJ: you propably already got the correct answer, rebuilt perl. so there is no need for further discussion and thanks for bugreports, fixes etc :)
<N6REJ> ok, last comment and then I'm gone... as it currently stands, using the server distro, there is no "server" install option.  [F3]  says there is but it doesn't function... gl with dapper.
<Mithrandir> ogra_: would it be possible for xscreensaver to not lock the screen for the first five seconds or so?  I just want to be able to hit a key and make it unblank when I see it blank
<ogra_> Mithrandir, i'll have to examine the gnome-screensaver code more for that ...
<ogra_> but probably yes ...
<N6REJ> I don't know if this is the place or not to say this, but you guys MIGHT want to know that the interchange packages that are part of ubuntu, require "Non-threaded perl" instead of the perl that comes with ubuntu
<tseng> its not
<Mithrandir> N6REJ: please file a bug in bugzilla or malone.
<tseng> http://launchpad.net/malone
<tseng> (Thanks)
<N6REJ> ok, ty... will do.
<ogra_> Mithrandir, i think it could introduce something in the fade code
<Mithrandir> ogra_: I can hack it in xscreensaver as a temporary solution, if that'd be ok?
<zyga> hey guys
<zyga> I've noticed something strange in dapper
<zyga> I've got lots of gnome-pty-helper processes aroud
<zyga> even though I've got no gnome-terminals at all
<zyga> they just hang there indefinitly
<ogra_> Mithrandir, i'm not sure if the fade code is just taken plain from xscreensaver ... but i guess its very similar in gnome-screensaver....
<ogra_> Mithrandir, so hacking it in gnome-screensaver for dapper would rather be the way to go
<Mithrandir> ogra_: so you don't care about xscreensaver any more?
<ogra_> Mithrandir, not really ... its breezy, its done :) ... only for very weird bugs ...
<Mithrandir> ogra_: 'k
<pef> dholbach: can you have a look on #ubuntu-meeting ?
* lamont considers kicking Riddell just for good measure.
<Riddell> lamont: hmm?
<lamont> I'm gonna fix the build-deps on kdeutils, kdepim, kdemultimedia
<Riddell> lamont: go ahead, or I'll be spending some time uploading stuff this evening
<Riddell> I'm sure I heard lamont saying "Riddell rocks" earlier today
<lamont> hehe
<lamont> yeah, I did say that
<lamont> because i thought you'd fixed kde for me. :-)
<Mez> I dont think KDE can ever be fixed
<Mez> :-"
<carstenh> pitti: i guess your talk about firewall is over.  can you give me a short summary when you have some time?
<pitti> carstenh: we basically just went through the spec and corrected a few little things
<pitti> carstenh: but essentially the spec is fine as it is, it just lacks a complete implementation :-)
<carstenh> pitti: will they be documented somewhere?
<pitti> carstenh: yes, ajmitch will update the wiki (or already has)
<carstenh> pitti: did you also talked about not using python?
<carstenh> fine :)
<pitti> carstenh: no, sorry, I completely forgot about that
<carstenh> pitti: we can talk about it later and ask $whoever_is_responsible_for_such_things
<pitti> carstenh: it doesn't actually belong into the spec
<Akatemik> Kamion: In case you're interested, both archs are now booting to shell. Still working on why it doesn't like xdm.
<pitti> carstenh: but I'd recommend Python or Perl for it
<carstenh> pitti: i know :) let's decide it later
<seb128> pitti, stop recommending perl you big freak
<dholbach> seb128: ah ah
* ajmitch tries to get his new gpg key working...
<pitti> seb128: it's the only other language that I'd really accept for the project
<corey_> mdz, ping
<mdz> corey_: pong, but in a BOF
<corey_> mdz, when you have time, need to raise the priority of a bof --> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/better-wiki-docs
<corey_> mdz, needs to be high (approved by jdub)
<jdub> ah, not that i've looked at it yet
<ogra> fabbione, ??
<schweeb> has there been any more work into Xen packages for ubuntu yet?  I know it was a kind of unlikely effort for breezy due to some kernel difficulties
<schweeb> I'm within a couple weeks of buying myself a server for hosting, and want to revisit the possible packaging of Xen
<Mithrandir> we would want it for dapper, but I'm not sure if it's actually on the list of stuff to discuss here at UBZ.
<smurf> it isn't
<Mithrandir> fabbione: ^^ ? Any ideas what's up there?
<fabbione> schweeb: there are no specs planned and unlikely to happen
<bob2> elmo: Znarl www.ubuntulinux.org is very very slow, fwiw
<Mithrandir> bob2: it's probably trying to give you the authentic Canonical Conference Feeling.
#ubuntu-devel 2006-10-30
<Thib_> hello, it was suggested I ask this non-support question here rather than in #ubuntu
<Thib_> I upgraded from Dapper to Edgy and no longer have a disk management tool out of the box; in Dapper it used to be System > Administration > Tool. Was that functionality removed from the default Edgy menu?
<cge> Thib_: If you don't get an answer, you can also ask on the mailing lists, which seem to be the best place to ask nontrivial questions.
<lloydinho> Thib_: as far as I understand it, the reason that the Disks tool has been removed is because Upstream (ie. GNOME) no longer maintains that function.
<lloydinho> So it has been removed from all of GNOME with 2.16 rather than just from Ubuntu.
<Thib_> lloydinho: oh so it *has* been removed.
<Thib_> lloydinho: okay that makes perfect sense.
<lloydinho> Well, it still sucks to be without a graphical tool for disk management, but I suppose we'll have to manage for now.
<Thib_> just to clarify, I didn't mean to imply that was good or bad. Just wanted to know.
<lloydinho> :-)
<cge> We do have gparted in main.
<Thib_> right, I like a graphical tool too.
<lloydinho> cge: True. But it isn't as easily discoverable for new users.
<Thib_> but since I'm upgrading several machines from Dapper to Edgy and they all "succeeded" i.e. failed slightly in subtly different ways, I'm just trying to determine what is intended changes and what isn't :-)
<cge> lloydinho: Yes, it would have to be installed by default.
<jordi> lloydinho: afaik there's something new that replaces it?
<Thib_> I'm happy with gparted.
<lloydinho> jordi, not in the standard installation, as far as I can tell.
<cge> Thib_: As you can see, getting answers to questions like that here is much calmer than in #ubuntu.
<lloydinho> But when you install Gparted it slots right into the System -> Administration menu.
<Thib_> cge: it is :-) I just didn't realize this place existed.
<cge> lloydinho: It appears that gparted is installed by default in the LiveCD, but not in the default installation.
<Thib_> lloydinho: it does? mine didn't, or maybe I need to log out and back in
<lloydinho> Thib_: probably.
<cge> Thib_: It does. 
<cge> Thib_: You could also try killing the panel.
<Thib_> killing the panel?
<Thib_> lol I've never thought about doing that :-)
<Thib_> does it, like, come back to life?
<lloydinho> Thib_: killall gnome-panel
<cge> Thib_: gnome-session brings it back to life, yes.
<Thib_> aha!
<Thib_> yes, now the icon is there
<Thib_> brilliant
<Thib_> well I learned two things today, that's great
<Thib_> many thanks, cge and lloydinho 
<lloydinho> Oh, and by the way: It's okay to come in here and ask a few questions when there's little developer activity, but generally the core-devs really like to keep the noise down in here, so they'll send you back #ubuntu
<lloydinho> _to:_ #ubuntu
<cge> lloydinho: No one answers questions like that #ubuntu, unfortunately.
<lloydinho> Hm. That is unfortunate. Maybe we should get Seveas to teach Ubotu about it. :-)
<cge> We need an #ubuntu-nontrivial channel.
<lloydinho> jeez, there's almost a thousand users in #ubuntu.
<cge> lloydinho: And it moves so fast that nontrivial questions become lost.
<Thib_> lol
<Thib_> well yeah
<lloydinho> Yes. Problem would be that everybody will demand Special Attention (TM) and will go straight to the -nontrivial channel.
<Thib_> it's okay though, I know when I'm asking something out of the ordinary and I don't expect immediate technical answers, especially in a busy channel.
<lloydinho> (at least that was the last explanation I heard).
<cge> lloydinho: Yes, that's probably true.
<cge> lloydinho: I'll have to think about ways to have a channel like that without having that problem.
<lloydinho> cge: Sounds like a good idea. If you come up with something good, write an email to the sounder mailing list or try to put it in a spec for discussion.
<cge> lloydinho: I will.
<cge> By the way, does anyone know if the official edgy cds that are being sold are pressed? None of the vendors say anything about the actual cds, and since they all sell burned CDs for nearly everything else, they probably need to mention it.
<cge> Otherwise very few people are going to want to buy what appears to be a CD-R with edgy on it.
<lloydinho> cge: There will be official Ubuntu DVDs that you can buy off amazon and such, I think.
<lloydinho> cge: there's a list of authorized vendors as well: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/GetUbuntu#buycurrent
<cge> lloydinho: There are places linked from ubuntu.com as selling "Official Ubuntu Edgy CDs", but since those places mainly sell burned CDs of linux distributions, it makes it look like that is what they are selling, even though I think they are selling pressed CDs from Canonical.
<lloydinho> cge: oh. Well, I guess that would be their own fault, really.
<cge> lloydinho: Ok, I'll try contacting them about it then.
<lloydinho> Cool, Goodnight.
<kro> When does feisty start?  Whats the best way to keep up with development.  Is there a specific fiesty irc channel/mailing list/etc?
<Lathiat> kro: after the development meeting (which is from the 5th to the 10th of november)
<Lathiat> kro: this channel the ubuntu-devel mailing lis tis the best place to keep an eye on i guess
<giri> I have heard that there was/is some discussion here on ndiswrapper
<giri> I am developer of ndiswrapper
<giri> wondering if anyone wants to let me know any decisions / feedback / comments
<kro> Lathiat: thanks
<Lathiat> giri: Doesnt' seem to be too many people around atm, might be best to try another time
<Lathiat> I think everybody is celebrating or something :)
<giri> Lathiat: heh; ok, thanks
<giri> later
<soothsay> Should gnome-power-manager run with superuser priviliges?
<jdub> soothsay: no, it is a desktop service.
<soothsay> Okay, how can I quickly check if it is operating reasonably correctly? Suspend works for me when running the script in /etc/acpid but not through the 'logout' menu. I'm doing gnome-power-manager --verbose: Should it log suspend attempts? AC disconnection?
<soothsay> Never mind, was missing --no-daemon
<jdub> hrm. 64% into edgy install, access to the CD stops.
<jdub> ultimately freezing the entire thing.
* jdub checks CD
<maxflax> Whats the deal with ubuntu and alsa-driver 1.0.13 .. ?
<crimsun> maxflax: as I've stated in #alsa, if your issues are exhibited in upstream's 1.0.13, it's not Ubuntu's problem
<robertj>  is there a way to list all packages that place files in /etc/init.d, even those not instaleld?
<neuralis> robertj: apt-get install apt-file; apt-file update; apt-file search init.d
<robertj> sweet!
<neuralis> robertj: apt-file search etc/init.d if you want to restrict to /etc/init.d, instead of any init.d directory, clearly.
<naxx> ||.Req.:||  Help on building a debian package |pm me pls ;)||
<Burgundavia> naxx: ask in #ubuntu-motu
<naxx> thx
<naxx> i'll try
<Burgundavia> fabbione: thanks for teh logging
<fabbione> Burgundavia: ?
<ajmitch> #u-directory channel logging
<Burgundavia> yep
<fabbione> ah ok
<fabbione> mp
<fabbione> np
<ajmitch> hey pitti!
<BHSPitMonkey> hey ajmitch !
<ajmitch> hi
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> hey ajmitch, how are you?
<ajmitch> good, how are you?
<mnepton> LARGE AND IN CHARGE!
<mnepton> *ahem*
<ajmitch> ready for UDS? :)
<mnepton> sorry.
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> pitti: you don't mind if I start stealing merges of stuff I need? :)
<ajmitch> since you touched samba last
<pitti> ajmitch: BEWARE!!!1!
<pitti> ajmitch: of course I don't, go ahead ;)
<pitti> ajmitch: I'd just appreciate a quick ping for every package to avoid duplicate work
<ajmitch> pitti: yeah, that's why I'm asking now
<pitti> hi slomo_ 
<ajmitch> besides, I have to wait until we hear that it's ok to play in the feisty sandpit
<fabbione> ajmitch: the toolchain is not there yet
<ajmitch> I know
<fabbione> but you can still merge and make sure it works
<fabbione> once the toolchain is unleashed you can rebuild and retest
<ajmitch> I've got enough things to do before I upload
<BHSPitMonkey> when do we see a feisty pre-release, darnit!!!
<tfheen> BHSPitMonkey: first week of december or thereabouts. 
<ajmitch> tfheen: you're RM for feisty?
<BHSPitMonkey> seriously? that's actually sooner than I thought.
<DaGame> wana fite
<BHSPitMonkey> and I was being facetious before 
<tfheen> BHSPitMonkey: I'll at least take a look whether it's feasible.
<BHSPitMonkey> I'm pretty happy with edgy, although I do have some issues (and I didn't upgrade!)
<tfheen> ajmitch: we haven't really discussed it, but both mdz and the rest of the release team seems to be happy with what I did for edgy and it was fun, so I think I'll RM feisty too, yes.
<BHSPitMonkey> tfheen, are there even goals set out?
<tfheen> BHSPitMonkey: specs have been proposed, but not drafted and approved.
<BHSPitMonkey> a lot of the concept of planning features specifically for OS+1 confuses me... it seems like just intentionally holding back a feature
<tfheen> BHSPitMonkey: it's only six months until feisty is released.  That's not very much time.
<BHSPitMonkey> in order to pretty up a new release
<ajmitch> it's often needed in order to have time to get it ready 
<tfheen> so it makes sense to plan which direction we want features to take over longer periods of time than just the next six months.
<ajmitch> some of our specs may only be implemented in 12-18 months
<BHSPitMonkey> no, it's like... "We need this, and this, and this improved! But as soon as it's been coded, let it sit on the shelf until the +1 release, so the release looks really big!"
<tfheen> stuff generally don't get implemented and then shelved
<ajmitch> what features do you think were held back?
<BHSPitMonkey> why not have improvements in constant supply, that's just my dilemma 
<ajmitch> anything that's not ready by feature freeze doesn't go in - there has to be tiem to stabilise a release
<BHSPitMonkey> and I'm not trying to argue or dissent or anything, I'm saying I don't really understand how these decisions work
<tfheen> generally it comes down to whether we have time to implement stuff properly.
<tfheen> it's much better to have one well-working feature than three mostly-broken ones
<BHSPitMonkey> ok, well how does everything happen to be ready at the time of release
* mnepton stifles a laugh
<mnepton> define "ready" >:)
<BHSPitMonkey> why didn't tomboy or usplash (for vague example) get floated into dapper when they were done
<highvoltage> tfheen: is it still a possibility that there might be a permanent 'unstable' release for ubuntu at some stage?
<BHSPitMonkey> mnepton, I'm not strong enough to withstand you tonight :S
<BHSPitMonkey> it's late
<tfheen> BHSPitMonkey: usplash was in dapper.
<mnepton> BHSPitMonkey: you can install Tomboy on Dapper, it's just not a package in the defaults.
<BHSPitMonkey> tfheen, poorly stated- I meant the "purdy" usplash
<tfheen> BHSPitMonkey: and tomboy is in main in dapper too.  It just wasn't part of the default install.
<tfheen> BHSPitMonkey: because that wasn't coded until two months after dapper released?
<tfheen> and to answer the "how is everything ready" question.  Well, if it's not, we should already have dropped it earlier. :-)
<highvoltage> 5~
<BHSPitMonkey_> sorry, my ISP gave out on me about 5 minutes ago
<BHSPitMonkey_> IP rotation
<BHSPitMonkey_> my point before was, why aren't things like those "updates" to dapper? because this way, edgy can look like a bigger deal, right?
<fabbione> BHSPitMonkey: dapper has been released as stable and therefor it gets ONLY security or major bug fixes
<fabbione> by policy
<fabbione> new crack -> new release
<BHSPitMonkey_> gotcha
<dholbach> good morning
<ajmitch> morning daniel :)
<dholbach> hey Andrew
<ajmitch> excited about feisty? :)
<dholbach> YEAH :-)
<ajmitch> EXCELLENT!
* ajmitch is starting on some merges tonight
<mvo> hey dholbach!
<dholbach> heya mvo
<ajmitch> hey mvo 
<mvo> hey ajmitch!
<pygi> phanatic: ping :P
<pitti> hi mdz
<mdz> morning
<highvoltage> morning mdz 
<ajmitch> morning mdz 
<cjwatson> BHSPitMonkey: if it helps to understand, note that the new usplash required a bunch of changes in other packages, including a very complicated set of changes in the installer
<cbx33> hi guys what's this about Session management error: Authentication Rejected, reason : None of the authentication protocols specified are supported and host-based authentication failed
<cjwatson> BHSPitMonkey: even if we did do updates of that kind to dapper, this wasn't just one package that could have been dropped in
<gebruiker> I created a init script that changes the name of the ubuntu hostname, when should this be executed? At runlevel rcS?
<cjwatson> gebruiker: why not just change the file /etc/hostname?
<fabbione> cjwatson: it depends when it's executed. you also want /proc/sys/kernel/hostname
<cjwatson> /etc/init.d/hostname.sh already reads /etc/hostname and sets the hostname according to that
<cjwatson> there is no need for another init script
<fabbione> oh right. there is that one too
<gebruiker> cjwatson, We are selling ubuntu desktops, one of them contains 3 pc's and a printer, two of them ubuntu and 1 of them windows. We are cloning the hd images. Two computers can't have the same hostname on a lan
<cjwatson> gebruiker: set /etc/hostname after cloning
<cjwatson> gebruiker: that cannot possibly be harder than adding an init script
<gebruiker> I'm able to add a init script, however, I was wondering wheiter it should be added at system level or elsewhere.
<cjwatson> there's no point in adding an init script
<cjwatson> if you need to set the hostname dynamically, then either edit /etc/init.d/hostname.sh or use DHCP
<cjwatson> (there's a "host-name" option in DHCP - it's only honoured if the hostname is not set though)
<gebruiker> the script that changes the hostname, invokes  oem-config-prepare. So it has to done correctly.
<cjwatson> oem-config-prepare is supposed to be run before shipping to the end user, not after - I can't think why it would need to be run from an init script
<gebruiker> the computer is not installed with just ubuntu, it has additional software to.
<gebruiker> and pre-installed printer configurations etc.. etc..
<pitti> fabbione: FYI, glibc 2.5 is rocking fine here :)
<fabbione> pitti: what arch?
<pitti> fabbione: amd64
<fabbione> pitti: ok. 
<fabbione> make sure that you will reinstall them once feisty is open
<pitti> sure
<giskard> hello
<ogra> mvo, do we have a sCIM team in LP to assign bugs to ?
<ogra> *SCIM
<mvo> ogra: only cjk-testers
<mvo> ogra: what bug is it?
<ogra> bug 37711
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 37711 in scim-qtimm "Qt/SCIM broken (Cannot enter numbers in to spinbox widget)" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/37711
<ogra> it evolved from being a scribus bug to becoming a SCIM one ...
<sladen> *something* is broken with SCIM and Qt, just that we don't know who/how to debug it
<ogra> sladen, right, but i'm not doing anything with SCIM at all ... thats why i wanted to reassign it to the appropriate people 
<mvo> hm, 8 duplicates :/
<dholbach> it might make sense to rename the cjk-testers into a cjk-hackers team and attract a different set of people also :)
* dholbach is pondering doing that with pdatesters too :)
<ogra> dholbach, good idea
<pitti> hi tkamppeter 
<tkamppeter> hi pitti
* sladen reassigns to the cjk-team
<dholbach> Gloubiboulga: you heard of the xubuntu-derived livecd? http://www.golem.de/0610/48635.html ?
<Gloubiboulga> dholbach, yes, that's really good news for the xubuntu team :)
<highvoltage> *very* good :)
* dholbach hugs Gloubiboulga and highvoltage
* highvoltage used to use xfld before xubuntu existed
<highvoltage> yay! free hugs!
<Gloubiboulga> hehe
<Gloubiboulga> I'll give it a try this week
* ogra wonders why people have exim4 on a liveCD
<jsgotangco> good question
* highvoltage wonders why people have exim4 to begin with
<infinity> highvoltage: Because they have taste.
<Fujitsu> :O
<doko> seb128, dholbach: (process:7014): Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_screen_get_font_options: assertion `GDK_IS_SCREEN (screen)' failed
<doko> are these just warnings?
<infinity> highvoltage: Alternately, "an MTA flamewar on #-devel is pointless, please don't"
<Fujitsu> I can't believe there are exim4-lovers in Melbourne.
<seb128> doko: looks like a program bug
* Fujitsu leaves Melbourne upon making this terrible, terrible discovery.
<highvoltage> infinity: apologies, I had no intention of starting a flamewar, I think my little joke needed a smiley face. I have no grudges against exim4
<sladen> Gloubiboulga: is that the offical Xfce livecd?
<sladen> Gloubiboulga: is there anything in English to link to?
<Gloubiboulga> sladen, http://www.xfld.com/ 
<Gloubiboulga> the Xfce devs are not involved in this project AFAIK
<pitti> Keybuk: can you please fix MoM to generate changelogs for feisty?
<Fujitsu> pitti: I believe it does already, although it will only affect merges generated since that change was made, obviously.
<pitti> Fujitsu: ah, ok
<StevenK> Fujitsu: In regards to your terrible discovery, are you moving to Sydney? :-P
<Fujitsu> I've noted a couple of mine have had feisty there.
<Fujitsu> StevenK: Oh no.. Not you too!?
<Keybuk> pitti: hmm?
<StevenK> Fujitsu: 220 enervated.wedontsleep.org ESMTP Exim 4.63 Mon, 30 Oct 2006 22:41:31 +1100
<pitti> Keybuk: see above, seems to be already fixed
<Fujitsu> Argh, I live in an Exim-loving nation :(
<Keybuk> pitti: I haven't refreshed MoM yet
<Keybuk> nor have I begun the syncs
<pitti> Keybuk: I started doing my merges, and the current MoM output is good enough for me at least (I check that it has the current version anyway)
<Keybuk> you can't test them yet, let alone upload them!
<Fujitsu> Keybuk: The latter is understandable, but the former may good to perform...
<pitti> Keybuk: I don't upload them yet :)
<Fujitsu> Keybuk: But merges can be done, then tested and uploaded later. Less time wastage.
<sladen> Gloubiboulga: so this isn't an offical livecd?
<pitti> but now is a good time to review diffs, send patches upstream, merge packages, etc.
<pitti> and test them with libc 2.5
<Keybuk> a fair point
<Keybuk> I'll regenerate them
<Fujitsu> pitti, exactly. Right now, when there's little else to do, doing merges is a good idea.
<Fujitsu> Thanks Keybuk.
<fabbione> pitti: glibc ain't enough.. really..
<pitti> Keybuk: the only thing that concerns me is that we don't have the newer gcc yet
<Keybuk> Fujitsu: specs would be a better idea ? :)
<fabbione> pitti: you also need binutils, kernel headers and gcc
<fabbione> and glibc still need some love
<Fujitsu> Keybuk: Possibly... But I'm not a speccy person :P
<pitti> fabbione: I know, but for patch review and initial testing it should be good enough for most packagages
<Gloubiboulga> sladen, I don't think so
<fabbione> pitti: nope.. not really.. there are some radical changes in binutils/glibc that is not part of the binaries you are using
<pitti> fabbione: I can decide whether or not we can drop Ubuntu changes regardless of our toolchain
<fabbione> oh yeah that's for sure
* StevenK ought to poke mpt about the about-ubuntu spec.
<pitti> of course I'll test my current stack of merges again with the new toolchain
<cjwatson> I can't test most of mine until after they're uploaded anyway (installer)
<cjwatson> at least not without vast amounts of effort
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: get writing specs!
<cjwatson> it's far more economical for me to chuck them into the archive and test once everything's assembled
* infinity has noticed this chucking in action.
<infinity> In fact, is there anything in the queue that you didn't upload? :)
<cjwatson> not AFAIK :)
<fabbione> oh infinity.. somebody should whitelist LP in feisty-changes ML
<infinity> fabbione: Yeah, it's not my list.
<fabbione> ok...
<fabbione> who is the one?
<Keybuk> is feisty-changes actually working?
<Keybuk> I don't see a mail for base-files
<fabbione> Keybuk: read 5 lines above
<infinity> feisty-changes list run by lists at admin.canonical.com
<Fujitsu> Keybuk: No, hence the need to whitelist LP.
* infinity goes to poke -sysadmin
<Keybuk> ah, heh
<ogra> and someone should do a user migration from edgy-changes to feisty as well 
<fabbione> ogra: no you need to subscribe yourself manually
<ogra> unless thats already done
<cjwatson> infinity: I've got 50+ to merge before the installer works at all, so getting started early has generally proven to be a good plan :)
<ogra> fabbione, since when ?
<fabbione> since dapper
<ogra> we always had auto migration between releases, no ?
<fabbione> nope
<ogra> oh
<ogra> ok
<cjwatson> Keybuk: as far as I can see, setup-console-under-usplash will Just Work as soon as I remove the safety catches
<Keybuk> cjwatson: isn't that the best kind of spec?
<cjwatson> indeed
<cjwatson> no kernel problems at all
<cjwatson> I took out the setupcon call in /etc/init.d/usplash and took out the check for a running usplash in /etc/init.d/console-setup
<doko> infinity: any idea about bug 63676 ?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 63676 in openoffice.org "OpenOffice Crashes on Launch" [Undecided,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/63676
<Keybuk> cjwatson: what caused the console corruption?
<infinity> doko: /usr/lib/libpthread.so.0 isn't a binary we ship (ours is in /lib)
<cjwatson> Keybuk: probably attempting to fiddle with usplash's own tty
<cjwatson> rather than ttys 1 to 6
<infinity> doko: Same with /usr/lib/libc6.so.6
<Keybuk> ah, how are we ignoring that now?
<Keybuk> 1..6 or checking for !KD_TEXT ?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: we aren't - console-setup was fixed to talk to the right ttys
<infinity> doko: They have a non-standard libc installed.  Not.  Our.  Problem.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: using its existing configuration for which are the active consoles (/dev/tty[1-6] )
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> my only concern there is that it will break if someone disables tty2, etc.
<Keybuk> but that concern is probably petty and woefully misplaced at this time
<cjwatson> Keybuk: then it's easy to edit /etc/default/console-setup
<ogra> Keybuk, nout for ltsp
<Keybuk> might be worth checking the console mode
<Keybuk> iterate active vts, check for KD_TEXT, and only then setup ?
<Keybuk> that'd skip the X and usplash consoles
<cjwatson> would be better to make consolechars (setfont in Feisty) do that check rather than pissing about trying to check it from shell
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> unless we get /sbin/ioctl :p
<Keybuk> which I still want
<mark> can someone please update the Release files in edgy-{backports,updates,security} so debmirror will mirror again? :)
<doko> infinity: thanks
* ogra wonders wh< Keybuk isnt mentioned in the "people leaving debain" article in the recent german linux magazine edition ...
<Keybuk> mmm... /sbin/ioctl KDGETMODE ...
<Keybuk> :p
<ogra> mjg59 is though
<cjwatson> mark: what's wrong with them?
<mark> debmirror complains about missing gpg signatures
<Keybuk> cjwatson: they don't exist
<mark> let me check
<Keybuk> uh
<infinity> doko: Though the fglrx thing is interesting as well (but I'm not sure I care today)
<cjwatson> yes they do
<Keybuk> wrong window, and wrong person
<pitti> mark: debmirror works fine for me ?!?
<Fujitsu> infinity: You mean the lack of DRI in Edgy?
<pupeno__> Hello.
* pitti waves to zul
<infinity> Fujitsu: No.  That's known and a simple workaround.
<infinity> Fujitsu: Disable composite, DRI works, the end.
<pupeno__> I have just installe Edgy and it seems cryptsetup is broken. I've searched in the bugs database but I've found no mention of it. Does anybody know about this ?
* zul waves back to pitti
<mark> Won't mirror without dists/edgy-updates/main/debian-installer/binary-amd64/Packages.gz signature in Release at /usr/bin/debmirror line 1300.
<Fujitsu> pupeno__: What do you mean broken? It won't ask for a password?
<pupeno__> Fujitsu: it fails to create a crypted volume, missmatched version of tools and module.
<cjwatson> mark: ok, would have helped a lot if you'd mentioned that earlier :)
<mark> doh
<pupeno__> root@plab:~# cryptsetup -y create pupeno /dev/hda3
<pupeno__> Command failed: Incompatible libdevmapper 1.02.07 (2006-05-11)(compat) and kernel driver
<mark> there is no debian-installer
<cjwatson> indeed
<mark> cjwatson: it would've helped a lot if I had used my brain earlier ;)
<cjwatson> tell debmirror not to try to mirror it :)
* mark sits in a corner
<cjwatson> the error message is perhaps not entirely ideal
<mark> I just looked at the date 'august 8' of the release files and thought "they must be out of date"
<cjwatson> there haven't been any updates published yet
<cjwatson> so nothing has caused the Release files to be rewritten
<pupeno__> Here: http://paste.lisp.org/display/28971 , some more information. Can anybody confirm/deny this problem ?
<mark> assuming dists/edgy/main/debian-installer/ will never change again, I won't have to mirror that dir
<Keybuk> pitti: please don't file syncs!
<pitti> Keybuk: why not?
<Keybuk> we're not in upstream version freeze
<Keybuk> so syncs will happen automatically
<Keybuk> unless you are meaning that changes are to be dropped from a merge?
<pitti> Keybuk: erm, for locally modified packages???
<pitti> Keybuk: yes, that's what I do
<Keybuk> ok, sorry
<pitti> Keybuk: *phew* :)
<Keybuk> I didn't see a summary of ubuntu changes in your first mails
<Keybuk> so assumed you were doing "update these to Debian" :)
<Keybuk> just noticed you added that in a reply to each
<pitti> Keybuk: I use requestsync to file them and then add a followup with the explanation
<Keybuk> *nods*
<Keybuk> I can see that now
* Hobbsee hugs requestsync
<pitti> Keybuk: maybe I should teach requestsync to spawn $EDITOR for this case
<Keybuk> doesn't matter really, when read in LP it will look normal
<Keybuk> I was just reading the e-mail
<pupeno__> so, cryptsetup seems to be really broken :(
<Hobbsee> pupeno__: file a bug?
<pupeno__> Hobbsee: I am in the process, but there are other bugs for it already. What I don't understand is how people got so far to find out the other bugs since the one I've found should have stopped them earlier.
<mark> I see startup messages are no longer logged to the serial console in edgy - is this because of upstart/logd?
<pitti> Keybuk: gnutls12 was removed in Debian; will some magick indicate that it should be removed from Ubuntu as well, or shall I file a bug for that?
<Keybuk> mark: remove "quiet" from the kernel command-line
<Keybuk> pitti: file a bug
<mark> Keybuk: thanks
<tepsipakki> how come the source for pine is not included in ubuntu as it is on debian?
<thom> tepsipakki: because pine users should be burnt at the stake (not the correct answer)
<thom> tepsipakki: seriously, i suspect because no-one has asked for it, and it would probably need to go into multiverse
<tepsipakki> thom: yes, multiverse would be the place
<azeem> there should be GNU pain
<popey> is there a file like http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/meta-release which gives the correct answer to the question "what are the current supported releases of Ubuntu?" ?
<tepsipakki> thom: we have maybe 10000 users who use it more or less frequently. I can already smell them :)
<popey> for example that page has Hoary as supported but it's been 18 months since release, so I would expect that to become "Supported: 0"?
<thom> tepsipakki: just install mutt with the pine theme and symlink pine to it :-)
<tepsipakki> thom: :D
<tepsipakki> maybe I'll just grab the source from debian and use that ;)
<pitti> popey: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu
<popey> ah, of course
<cjwatson> mark: dists/edgy/main/debian-installer/ won't change, no
<thom> cjwatson: ISTR you mentioning that edgy kickstart was a bit bust at one point; did that get fixed or should I aim for preseed?
<mark> now I understand why 'quiet' is the default - with upstart it gets very messy otherwise ;)
<cjwatson> popey: hoary hasn't officially reached EOL yet; see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-security-announce/2006-October/000418.html
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: one more day...
<cjwatson> thom: should be fixed
<cbx33> hi popey
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: in fact, it's the 31st in NZ - so it has :P
<popey> hahah
<popey> didn't realise it was that close
<Hobbsee> </pedant>
<zul> yehaw i dont have to do security updates for hoary if i was in nz right now
<spike> hi there
<spike> can anybody comment about the debian-installer?
<thom> cjwatson: ah, thanks
<spike> "This package currently only contains some documentation for the Debian installer. We welcome suggestions about what else to put in it."
<pitti> zul: btw, don't bother with preparing another hoary kernel; none of the outstanding issues are 'OMG the sky has fallen', and we won't be able to push it out today or tomorrow anyway
<zul> pitti: consider it done :)
<cjwatson> spike: yes, that's all that the debian-installer *binary package* contains
<cjwatson> spike: what are you looking for?
<spike> cjwatson: so I'm probably missing something... I'm looking at this page: http://www.hands.com/d-i/
<spike> cjwatson: the idea is using preesedeeing and boot clients from a network image
<spike> via PXE
<spike> I'm using FAI atm, I wanted to give preseeding a try
<spike> but I cant get a clear picure how what I'm supposed to do
<spike> that page says about recompling some custom udebs and so on
<cjwatson> I'm not sure we have a lot of the necessary infrastructure by default yet in edgy
<cjwatson> if you really want to try it, start with 'apt-get source debian-installer' rather than the debian-installer binary package
* mark wonders how preseeding helps with booting off a network
<cjwatson> but Kickstart will probably be easier
<spike> unfortunately there doesnt seem to be any good doc either :/
<mark> would you mind joining #ubuntu-installer? :)
<spike> that page and http://interthingy.com/digby/ are the only decent resources
<spike> yet fairly chaotic and incomplete imho
<tepsipakki> what's wrong with nvidia-glx, since it insists on installing linux-image..-386
<tepsipakki> which then panics on boot
<cjwatson> spike: installation-guide
<ogra> cjwatson, would you think it would make sense to have a special ltsp mode for netinst ? i provide the necessary infrastructure anyway 
<cjwatson> ogra: what do you mean?
<ogra> so you could be off with installing ltsp-server and copy the neinst iso into place
<cjwatson> what netinst iso?
<ogra> err, s/iso/image
<cjwatson> we've never provided netinst, only netboot
<ogra> thats what i mean
<cjwatson> netinst == installer image plug base system
<cjwatson> plus
<cjwatson> ogra: netboot needs to stay generic; I don't want to build lots of variants of it
<ogra> ltsp-server sets up tftp and the like so you only need to put the image in the right place ...
<cjwatson> ogra: you should be able to preseed netboot to do whatever you want to do
<ogra> i dont want to touch netboot 
<cjwatson> oh, you mean a netboot mode for ltsp?
<ogra> preseeding will get me the dhcpd and tftpd infrastructure ready ?
<cjwatson> forget what I said
<ogra> i mean that you could re-use the ltsp package setup for netboot
<cjwatson> ogra: sure, I guess
<ogra> i'm expressing myself complicated today, sorry
<cjwatson> ogra: sounds like it's entirely up to you
<cjwatson> if you have people wanting it, and it's not too hard to do, then do it
<ogra> well, i dont
<ogra> but i see the question about netboot and how to set up dhcp and tftp more often
<cjwatson> then perhaps you should not do it
<cjwatson> that's not really connected to LTSP
<ogra> so i thought about a howto like: install ltsp-server and copy the image to ... 
<cjwatson> it shouldn't be tied into LTSP, IMO
<ogra> ...  then boot your client and watch it install
<ogra> well, it already is in there ...
<ogra> ltsp serts up the services ...
<ogra> *sets
<cjwatson> ogra: how-to documents for automatic installations that have nothing to do with LTSP shouldn't come with all the other LTSP bits
<ogra> right
<ogra> well, was just a thought to make it easier for users struggling with dhcp/tftp
<cjwatson> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/i386/ch04s05.html
<cjwatson> ^-- existing documentation on setting it up. happy to improve it given specific suggestions
<ogra> right, i'll think about it ...
<cjwatson> tfheen: do you remember what places in X depend on /etc/X11/xkb and/or /usr/lib/X11/xkb?
<cjwatson> tfheen: new xkeyboard-config in Debian uses /usr/share/X11/xkb
<cjwatson> (of which I'm all in favour - get rid of 2.7MB from /etc that hardly anyone touches
<cjwatson> )
<fabbione> cjwatson: iirc we discuss that in edgy merge and decided to keep it in /etc to avoid yet another transition..
<fabbione> and it's probably a path in the server
<fabbione> or slam a compat symlink
<cjwatson> I think just Breaks: xorg-server (<< version-with-new-xkb-path)
<cjwatson> making that a compatibility symlink would be a pain, 'cos we'd have to ensure that the directory was nonexistent first, and then what do you do if the user had customised stuff there ...
<fabbione> then i suggest to leave it in /etc
<tfheen> cjwatson: the X server and xkbcomp/setxkbmap, iirc.  there are a couple of libs.
<fabbione> even if there are custom things, once you move and "preserve" them in /usr/share, they will disappear at the first upgrade
<cjwatson> I don't want to keep that divergence forever
<cjwatson> AFAICT it was a pretty deliberate decision by Denis to move to /usr/share
<cjwatson> and I wasn't thinking of trying to dubiously "preserve" conffiles - more a postinst warning and just leave them there
* tfheen idly notes that kopt=root=UUID=blah on the kernel command line doesn't work so well.
<cjwatson> tfheen: does it parse it the wrong way round?
<cjwatson> ISTR having trouble with that before
<cjwatson> there's also no way to quote it
<tfheen> cjwatson: on the kernel command line proper, it just doesn't work.
<tfheen> I was a bit heavy-handed when doing a bit of C&P
<cjwatson> ah
<tfheen> Keybuk: we should probably make it error out in the case above: ^^ ; it effectively didn't have a root= line which makes it spin forever.
<Keybuk> interesting
<Keybuk> yes, initramfs should do something "sensible" when ROOT=""
<arvind_> We are going to deliver ubuntu desktops. We would like to create a costum gnome settings. This includes themes, icons themes, icons on the desktop and panel configuration/settings, font settings. How do I put all this in a skeleton is there a guide?
<whiprush> arvind_: google for "sabayon" and the "gnome system administration guide"
<sivang> re all
* sivang wonders if repos are opne again for uploads
<bddebian> Howdy
<jono> anyone know Mark Nielson?
<keescook> hi all
<seb128> hey keescook
<keescook> hiya seb128
<seb128> keescook: have you planned to get that vino password fix to edgy-proposed? ;)
<seb128> keescook: some user asked about it today
<keescook> seb128: yup, it's on my todo list.
<seb128> cool, thank you
<_ion> If i were to propose that feisty should use the "Defaults insults" sudo setting, would there be 0.0% or 0.1% chance of that actually happening? :-)
<_ion> (Btw, OpenBSD uses that by default.)
<Nafallo> _ion: the what?
<thom> heh
<thom> no insults by default :-)
<_ion> http://johan.kiviniemi.name/tmp/sudo-insults
<Nafallo> lol
<Nafallo> no
<Nafallo> not by default :-)
<pitti> hi mbiebl 
<mbiebl> pitti: hi
* jdub thinks that fits perfectly with the "linux for human beings" goal
<cjwatson> the insults are all very amusing, but no, I don't think so
<cjwatson> (-> _ion)
<_ion> Hehe, all right.
<jdub> Keybuk: http://lwn.net/Articles/205585/
<_ion> jdub: Would that make it possible to also relocate blocks for faster startup?
<iwj> cjwatson: Could you or mdz prioritise https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/unified-login-unlock-screen please ?
<jdub> very likely :-)
<iwj> I looked around and amazingly I couldn't find another plan to fix this anywhere.
<_ion> jdub: Because that would rule. :-)
<bhale> jdub: is that really needed?
<jdub> bhale: would be very awesome for optimising boot and application startup.
<bhale> jdub: hm oh, not for defrag
<bhale> jdub: right on
<jdub> bhale: kung fu teaches to use the opponent's inertia in your favour.
<_ion> bhale: If something allows the disk IO part of startup to consist of reading a continuous n MiB chunk of data from the HDD, i'd consider it "needed". :-)
<PSUSI> fabbione: ping
* Nafallo ska starta om till ny krna
<cjwatson> iwj: I'm not involved in setting priorities at the moment - the tech board is (so try Keybuk)
<cjwatson> (mdz's travelling)
* Keybuk picks a middle priority
<_ion> Does anyone know how Windows profiles the startup of programs for block relocation? The profiler itself shouldn't slow things down more than block relocation speeds them up. :-)
<Keybuk> _ion: I assume that windows has something that sucks less than inotify
<iwj> Keybuk: Thanks.
<Keybuk> iwj: I assume you want to propose it for the meeting?
<iwj> Yes.
<iwj> Although I'd make it `high'.  Have you ever seen a user who didn't know how it works struggle with this madness ?  It's quite crazy.
<iwj> Most users seem to assume it's buggy or has crashed or something.
<Keybuk> iwj: though it seems to conflict/overlap with both feisty-login and consistent-login-screen
<iwj> Dammit, I'm sure I searched the spec list for login before inventing a new one.
<iwj> I'll add some cross-references.
<iwj> Keybuk: Hmm, can you make consistent-login-screen medium instead ?
<Keybuk> done
<iwj> Ta
<cjwatson> iwj: and that's if they can even find how to switch user; see bug 67730, whose reporter you may recognise
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 67730 in Ubuntu "Usability bug - new login" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67730
<Gadi> Keybuk, infinity:  Just wanted to let you know how I resolved the boot-by-label issue in the end.  I basically commented out the udev rule in persistent-disks that skips the by-label studd if the ide disk is tagged "removable" and recreated initramfs
<iwj> cjwatson: *snort*
<Gadi> dont know what other probs this will cause, but wors so far
<Gadi> s/wors/works/
* jdub wonders if launchpad will grow a prayer wall feature
* iwj adss it to the list of bugs in UnifiedLoginUnlock.
<Nafallo> jdub: lol
<fabbione> PSUSI: pong
<pitti> hm, I just tried to sub to feisty-changes again and still didn't get a verification email
<cjwatson> pitti: have you already set up procmailery for feisty-changes?
<cjwatson> pitti: if so, note that the verification mail may have gone to the mailbox you set up for the list ...
<cjwatson> that one gets me nearly every time
<pitti> cjwatson: that's what I thought, too
<pitti> cjwatson: but .procmail.log doesn't have any sign of the verification mail
<pitti> oh, wait, it does, *blush*
<Keybuk> Gadi: good luck :)  when your machine locks up on boot, don't file a bug <g.
<pitti> cjwatson: landed in spam folder...
<Nafallo> hehe
<jdub> "For those vendors which have proprietary drivers that enable acceleration, we will consider enabling those drivers by default if they can provide us with an SLA for security and related updates."
<jdub> haw haw
<^robertj> jdub: aka "no"
<PSUSI> fabbione: hey, I noticed you made some changes to the lvm initramfs script since dapper
<iwj> `If [condition not going to be met] ' is always easier to say than `no' ...
<PSUSI> fabbione: it now assumes a boot path starting with /dev/mapper is LVM, and breaks it into vulume group and volume components, and spins for 3 mins waiting for the vg to appear in /dev
<PSUSI> fabbione: this causes dmraid booting systems to appear to lock up for 3 mins during boot, so I was wondering why this change was made?
<fabbione> it does only if root is on LVM
<PSUSI> right.... it thinks root is on lvm if root is on dmraid
<jdub> iwj: versus "uh, we're not going to ship your shit anyway"? :)
<PSUSI> that's the problem I ran into
<fabbione> PSUSI: it's a problem with some devices that takes longer to apper to the kernel.
<PSUSI> but I'm wondering why the script waits for the volume group to appear in dev?
<PSUSI> doesn't it just need the volume itself to appear?
<fabbione> i am trying to explain.. let me write
<PSUSI> k
<fabbione> basically in some cases the lvm script was executed before the underneath devices were available
<fabbione> making the vgchange command exit immediatly
<fabbione> that means that the initramfs would have waited forever for /
<fabbione> so lvm needs to wait and scan while devices are appearing in the system
<fabbione> once the VG is available it can exit the loop and go to mount root
<cjwatson> pitti: heh
<_ion> Hm, i think i ran into that, too, when i tried booting the md (RAID-1) + LVM system without the other HDD. Unfortunately i didn't have the chance to look into that because i had to get the 24/7 system running ASAP.
<PSUSI> fabbione: isn't udev-settle supposed to hold the scripts until all the devices have been detected?
<fabbione> PSUSI: nope...
<fabbione> did try to add udev-settle.. doesn't work on slow devices
<fabbione> _ion: a degraded raid is a totally different story
<PSUSI> hrm...
<fabbione> i was still getting lvm executed way before the device was there
<Keybuk> udevsettle holds the scripts until devices that HAVE ALREADY BEEN DETECTED have been configured
<_ion> fabbione: Ah, ok.
<PSUSI> ok.... well, I'd sugest that the loop print something to let the user know that it is still waiting after day, 10 seconds at most, and again if it times out completely
<Keybuk> there's obviously no way to wait for devices that have not yet been detected
<Keybuk> because if they've not been detected, we don't know to wait for them
<PSUSI> doesn't it wait for the bus scan to complete though?  thus we know all devices have been detected?
<Keybuk> most modern bus scans have no concept of completion
<Keybuk> take USB, for example; how do you know that an arbitrary topology tree-formed bus has completed a scan?
<PSUSI> fabbione: hrm.... well can you sugest any way that it could be kept from clashing with dmraid?  Other than just removing lvm from the initramfs?
<_ion> fabbione: I take it the delay caused by booting with a degraded RAID-1 is a known problem? (Sorry, didn't yet look at launchpad bugs)
<PSUSI> Keybuk: simple... you have queried all the hubs
<PSUSI> and all ports on those hubs
<fabbione> PSUSI: i am not sure.. the only way we have to know it's to wait for the VG to appear in /dev
<Keybuk> PSUSI: and what if a hub is connected to those ports?
<fabbione> _ion: i don't know about that bug. what i am saying that the problem you are describing is different from what PSUSI is talking about
<Keybuk> what if the hub takes 3s to power up, and doesn't return an announcement of its own presence until then?
<_ion> fabbione: Ok, right.
<fabbione> _ion: also.. i see no reason why initramfs should hold up on a degraded raid.
<PSUSI> fabbione: let me make sure if I get this then.... the VG appears first, then the script must run a command to create the volume itself?
<fabbione> _ion: it *CAN* wait only if you have a configured raid and you remove it completely (100%) from the system and that's documented 
<PSUSI> Keybuk: then you have not scanned all hubs yet, keep scanning
<Keybuk> PSUSI: and how do we know that there's no device on a port?
<fabbione> PSUSI: no. the problems are devices that are part of the LVM volume and that are not there when lvm script is executed.
<PSUSI> Keybuk: iirc, usb detectes taht there is a device connected to the port via the characteristic impeadence, so its prescense is known immediately
<Keybuk> PSUSI: not true
<fabbione> PSUSI: the only way to know that root is on lvm is when root=/dev/mapper.. 
<Keybuk> a long cable with nothing on it would be detected as a connected device by that means
<fabbione> PSUSI: and we know that the VG is active once there is the directory in /dev
<Keybuk> which would cause the boot to hang while we waited for the device on the other end to announce itself
<PSUSI> fabbione: right, but what creates those devices?  I thought that the scripts ran commands that scanned actual disk devices, and then created the dm devices on top?
<PSUSI> fabbione: so the scripts should depend on the real underlying hardware, not the vg device no?
<fabbione> PSUSI: vgchange...
<PSUSI> Keybuk: which is why there is a maximum cable length
<fabbione> PSUSI: not really.. you can't add these information in the initramfs. LVM is way too flexible for that
<fabbione> PSUSI: LVM scans the disks for LVM UUIDS to see if all devices to activate a certain VG are there.. regardless of their name (sda sdb..)
<fabbione> PSUSI: so a device might appear always with a different name
<PSUSI> fabbione: the vg does not appear until you run vgchange though right?
<fabbione> and LVM will still work
<fabbione> yes right
<fabbione> but you don't know what devices are part of the vg
<PSUSI> fabbione: is this done by udev callouts or by an vgchange like command?
<fabbione> vgchange calls
<fabbione> (it's the only way)
<PSUSI> called from where?  udev, or the script?
<PSUSI> if it is from the script, then the devices should appear synchronously no?
<fabbione> or you need a much more complex algo that will still invoke the lvm binary
<fabbione> script
<fabbione> udev doesn't do anything for us yet
<fabbione> (it will in feisty.. HI SCOTT!)
<PSUSI> oh wait, ok, I see now... the script just keeps calling the binary to search all known devices for a vg
<PSUSI> and it either finds them all and makes the vg or not
<fabbione> for THE vg
<PSUSI> if not, the script delasy 0.1 seconds, and tries again
<fabbione> exactly
<fabbione> 0.5 but yes
<Keybuk> fabbione: maybe
<fabbione> vgchange is expensive
<fabbione> Keybuk: just kidding :)
<Keybuk> fabbione: we will either use udev callouts for LVM/EVMS/etc.
<Keybuk> fabbione: or we will drop support for them entirely
<fabbione> Keybuk: drop support is not an option
<PSUSI> I'll start working on udevifying dmraid ;)
<Keybuk> fabbione: then make sure you're subscribed to the discussion BOFs, and come with information about how to make it possible <g>
<PSUSI> discussion bofs?
<fabbione> Keybuk: i am subscribed already.. you did... implementation isn't my issue :) i am sure you are going to have a lot of fun testing it :P
<Keybuk> https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/udev-device-mapper
<Keybuk> https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/udev-lvm
<fabbione> Keybuk: i think you subbed me as essential ;)
<Keybuk> https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/udev-evms
<Keybuk> https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/udev-mdadm
<Keybuk> fabbione: yes, testing and understanding is a big part of what we need
<fabbione> Keybuk: yeps.. i can help you there
<Keybuk> I'm going to put vmware on my laptop so we can set up trials
<fabbione> nah.. just keep about 300MB of spare disk space
<fabbione> no need to use vmware
<Keybuk> ok
<fabbione> if you can shrink a partition or something.. just free 2/300 MB
<Keybuk> *nods*
<fabbione> it's way too much for playing
<Keybuk> will do that then
<fabbione> plys
<fabbione> plus
<fabbione> we can use loop devices
<fabbione> same results.. faster.. less pain
<fabbione> WHO DOESN'T HAVE ROOT ON A RAID5 over LOOP over LVM is just.. .a normal user..
<LarstiQ> heh
<PSUSI> lol
<Keybuk> fabbione: as I've said before, I find it amusing that of all the parts of the system you can play with to make life interesting for yourself, people still choose their root filesystem
<PSUSI> well, I didn't have a whole lot of choice actually since I wanted to be able to dual boot with windows which was installed on my hardware fakeraid
<fabbione> Keybuk: personally.. i still like my root on lvm.. really.. how other people get to trash it ain't my problem
<PSUSI> fabbione: so for dmraid users upgrading to edgy, I should recomend they just remove the lvm script and rebuild their initramfs?
<fabbione> PSUSI: your call.. dmraid is universe... but make sure that they are not running LVM on top of dmraid
<fabbione> otherwise you are going to mess up for them
<PSUSI> oh good god I hope nobody is that crazy
<fabbione> why not?
<fabbione> you are crazy enough to run dmraid
<fabbione> you can't assume
<PSUSI> device mapper, on top of device mapper, on top of device mapper?
<fabbione> yes of course
<fabbione> what's the big deal with that
<PSUSI> hehe... all I can say is DAMN!
<fabbione> d-m is a fast layer
<fabbione> very cheap
<PSUSI> yea.... but... well....
* lamont wonders why xmms won't play his just-ripped mp3s
<iwj> rodarvus: I was wondering if you had any useful opinion about bug 68440, which is quite annoying for me ?
<Ubug2> Malone bug 68440 in xorg "X does not work in Xen, causes crash" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68440
<rodarvus> iwj, let me take a look at it
<iwj> rodarvus: Thanks a lot.
<iwj> Various other people have similar setups without trouble so it's probably something specific to my hardware.
<mark> is there a system/script for doing automated backports of packages?
<mark> backport builds
<dholbach> mark: the process is automatic, but each backport has to be requested and approved
<mark> I was more wondering if there's an easy way to do this stuff outside debian/ubuntu, without having to build all packages by hand
<dholbach> something like          apt-get source -t edgy -b <package>  && sudo dpkg -i *.deb          ?
<dholbach> (you'll need a   deb-src   line for edgy)
<_ion> build-dep
<mark> hmm maybe :)
<iwj> Install pbuilder ?
<mark> but changing the version number to include something like "~dapper1" would be nice
<dholbach> should all be easy to set up, look into dch and pbuilder
<mark> okay, thanks
<PSUSI> dangit... how do you mark a bug as a duplicate on launchpad?
<PSUSI> nevermind... there it is
* PSUSI misses bugzilla
<nkassi> PSUSI: I know what you mean ;0) 
<PSUSI> what should I do with a bug that has no ubuntu maintainer and appears to not be modified from debian?  specifically reiserfsprogs
<PSUSI> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/reiserfsprogs/+bug/60894
<Ubug2> Malone bug 60894 in reiserfsprogs "mkfs.reiserfs creates an unmountable file system" [Undecided,Confirmed]  
<Tonio_> hi
<PSUSI> hrm... maybe I'll just assign it to myself?
<cjwatson> PSUSI: only if you intend to fix it yourself and push the fix into the archive (via a sponsor or whatever)
<elmo> keescook/pitti: well, hmm, infinity doesn't seem to have added edgy-security to the buildds.  I could just try bodging it in if you like?
<keescook> elmo: I thought he said he'd built the chroots?
<elmo> he has, but the buildds aren't looking at the distro yet
<keescook> ah
<keescook> so in theory, it might work if it was just added to the buildds?
<sladen> PSUSI: file it upstream in Debian, and link to the upstream bugtracker
<elmo> keescook: yes, I'll give it a go
<fabbione> elmo: infinity was waiting for you to OK dak before adding edgy-security to the buildd...
<mattions> Do you know where I can find libgdl-1-dev .deb verion >=0.7 ?
<mattions> version*
<elmo> PITTI
<elmo> pitti: dh_strip killed the screen build?
<elmo> dh_strip debug symbol extraction: all non-arch-all packages for this build platform i386: screen 
<elmo> dh_strip debug symbol extraction: packages to act on: screen 
<elmo> dh_strip debug symbol extraction: ignored packages: 
<elmo> make: *** [binary-arch]  Error 1
<pitti> arghl
<pitti> why didn't this turn up in autobuild?
<elmo> well it could be a chroot problem
<elmo> however pkg-create-dbgsym is installed
<pitti> elmo, keescook: sorry, I have to run in 2 minutes, will look into it later
<elmo> as is pkgbinarymangler
<elmo> hmm, I wonder if it's installed the in the autotest chroots
<elmo> yeah, it is
<pitti> elmo: pkg-create-dbgsym FTBFS were uncovered in the autotest cycle
<pitti> keescook: please mail me the status, gotta go now
<keescook> pitti: okay
<ProN00b> why are the ubuntu repos so old ?
<Burgwork> ProN00b: old?
<Burgwork> define old
<cjwatson> don't feed the troll
<mattions> cjwatson: I'm not a troll.
<mattions> I'm triyng to explained..
<mattions> explain*
<cjwatson> mattions: I wasn't talking to/about you
<Burgwork> mattions: he was talking about me
<mattions> cjwatson: no problem ...
<mattions> sorry..
<cjwatson> Burgwork: no, I was talking to you, not about you
<mattions> :)
<mattions> well..
<ProN00b> old as in no audacious, no bmpx, no gaim beta4, old version of gWget
<cjwatson> mattions: Debian has libgdl-1-dev 0.6.1-1, as does Ubuntu, so the answer seems to be "nowhere" at the moment
<mattions> ok..
<crimsun> 3/4 you refer to, ProN00b, are not even main packages. You should ask in #ubuntu-motu.
<mattions> thank you.
<_ion> crimsun: Remember what the sign said about feeding it? :-)
<ProN00b> crimsun, yeah, thats why i said "no"
<PSUSI> sladen: yea, I found a bug in debian bts to link to and added a comment to it
<imbrandon> whats the status for us to upload to edgy-backports atm ?
<imbrandon> iirc from paris we were going to open it for uploads once the RC freeze was in effect ( and i have a package ready is why i'm asking now )
<ajmitch> morning
* keescook waves hi to ajmitch
<Burgwork> morning ajmitch
<sladen> Burgwork: not in #doc ?
<Burgwork> sladen: I am there
<Mez> hmm... anyone have any idea how to make it so my resolv.conf doesnt keep getting overwritten (or to kill dhclient3 on start - which I believe is what's causing the issues)
<tfheen> Mez: change /etc/dhcp3/dhclient-script?
<Mez> tfheen: that doesnt exist... 
<tfheen> upgrade to a dhcp client from this century and fix it, then.
<Mez> it's annoying - it autodects my modem as the damn DNS thing which keeps returning 1.0.0.0 as any IP
<ispiked> iwj: ping
<tritium> doko: is spadmin gone in edgy?
<tritium> doko: oh, found it.  /usr/lib/openoffice/program/spadmin is a symlink to soffice (odd!), but spadmin.bin works
<tritium> well, spadmin.bin is what I was looking for, but it doesn't work
* mjg59 *really* fixes usplash
<nixternal> [14:29:19]  <floydwilde> Hey the Dupage County Courthouse uses Ubuntu
<nixternal> oops, wrong channel
* nixternal scrolls down a couple more windows
<blueyed> What was the channel for the ubuntu webmasters again? I'm wondering why there are edgy-*.torrent files, which differ from the ubuntu-6.10.*.torrent ones here: http://torrent.ubuntu.com:6969/
<cjwatson> blueyed: that's got nothing to do with the Ubuntu webmasters
<cjwatson> blueyed: the edgy-* files are daily builds predating the release
<cjwatson> imbrandon: edgy-backports is open for requests via ubuntu-archive as usual. Manual uploads will land in the unapproved queue where archive admins can look at it
<imbrandon> cjwatson, perfect, thanks
<blueyed> cjwatson: thanks. But they should get removed then, shouldn't they?
<cjwatson> blueyed: yeah, they will be at some point
<cjwatson> I'll go and look at that now
<cjwatson> blueyed: they would get automatically removed when daily builds for feisty start up; but that won't be for a while
<cjwatson> oh, they're just xubuntu images by the looks of things
<ulaas> apt-get refuses to install sun-java5
* mvo goes to bed
<ulaas> can anyone check?
<cjwatson> blueyed: ok, most of them should be gone once the mirrors sync
<cjwatson> ulaas: 'dpkg-reconfigure debconf' and make sure the frontend isn't set to noninteractive. If you originally installed from certain pre-release dapper desktop CDs then you'll have that problem.
<ulaas> cjwatson: i surely coming from early edgy development.
<ulaas> cjwatson: is 'dpkg-reconfigure debconf' enough?
<ulaas> cjwatson: or do i need to do something for the frontend isn't set to noninteractive thing..
<cjwatson> early edgy> could be a different problem then. If it's the problem I'm thinking of, then 'dpkg-reconfigure debconf' is sufficient, but if it's some other problem then I do not know.
<cjwatson> (the usual default for the frontend is dialog)
<cjwatson> ulaas: failing that try 'sudo env DEBCONF_DEBUG=developer apt-get install sun-java5' for a better debug trace that you can put in a bug report
<ulaas> cjwatson: debconf: DbDriver "config": /var/cache/debconf/config.dat is locked by another process
<cjwatson> ulaas: you have apt or dpkg running in another window
<cjwatson> or perhaps suspended
<ulaas> cjwatson: checking
<cjwatson> (or else you're running debconf-communicate or something by hand but in that case you ought to know enough to put the pieces back together for yourself :-) )
<ulaas> cjwatson: i think i seem to fix my problem. thanx. however i am using adept as package manager
<ulaas> cjwatson: and if dialog is set to dbconf will it open up a console automagically?
<ulaas> cjwatson: or just fail again with a dead apt in the back
* nkassi going home
<cjwatson> I don't know what adept does if a program tries to read from the terminal; sorry
<cjwatson> try it
<ulaas> cjwatson: i will try to use kde as a frontend.
<ulaas> cjwatson: thanks for all dude.
<cjwatson> make sure you have libqt-perl installed if you do that
<ulaas> sure. thanx
<Riddell> ulaas: adept and sun-java packages don't mix
<ulaas> Riddell: now they do :)
<Riddell> ulaas: how?
<ulaas> Riddell:  follow cjwatson's answers to me.
<sladen> mjg59: I've just been ignoring usplash say that I can have the moral high-ground of being able to say "well, *I* didn't break it" :)
#ubuntu-devel 2006-10-31
<ispiked> I'm looking for someone who manager the firefox package.
<ispiked> iwj is the only one that I know of, but he seems to be ignoring me or MIA>
<Burgwork> ispiked: iwj is your man. What is your issue?
<ispiked> Burgwork: basically, in eft you crash if you view a page with flash in it. It's a major issue and I was just wondering if anything was being done about it and/or he iwj was aware of it.
<Burgwork> ispiked: it is a flash bug
<Burgwork> bug adobe
<ispiked> Burgwork: yeah, but it crashes Firefox.
<Burgwork> welcome to closed source crap
<Burgwork> lobby adobe to support open source flash, gnash
<ispiked> there are two obvious work-arounds that could be implemented.
<Burgwork> file a bug report with those work arounds
<Burgwork> it will get to him
<ispiked> I cced the adobe flash linux guy on the mozilla bug.
<ispiked> he still hasn't responded.
<ispiked> ok, commented on https://launchpad.net/products/firefox/+bug/14911.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 14911 in firefox "Flash plugin problem with ARGB visuals causes crash" [Unknown,Confirmed]  
<jdong> ispiked: I believe a 3rd workaround is to set Options Composite 0 in xorg.conf
<ispiked> jdong: is composite enabled by default? because I've seen people's xorg.confs that crash without composite listed as an extension.
<jdong> ispiked: in edgy / Xorg 7.1, yes
<ispiked> jdong: ah, alright.
<jdong> I don't think that was well documented enough in the release notes
<jdong> it leads to fglrx shutting off 3D acceleration by default, too
<ispiked> it definitely should be added. :\
<ispiked> jdong: it?
<jdong> which has lead to a good deal of confusion
<ispiked> jdong: the crash?
<jdong> ispiked: composite extensions
<ispiked> jdong: oh.
<jdong> when fglrx detects composite, it'll disable DRI
<Burgwork> ispiked: thanks. I didn;t want to be harsh, but iwj is drowing in enough bugs
<HrdwrBoB> the unfortunate answer is you shouldn't have bought an ATI card
<ispiked> Burgwork: does he do more than Firefox?
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> know any good mozilla gurus?
<ispiked> Burgwork: yes.
<ispiked> Burgwork: I'm an active member of the mozilla community.
<ispiked> Burgwork: time is tight over there, too, though. :\
<jdong> HrdwrBoB: heh... on laptops there aren't that many better alternatives
<Burgwork> ispiked: canonical is looking for a full time moz maintainer
<ispiked> Burgwork: mmm...
<HrdwrBoB> jdong: I didn't say it was easy or even feasible :)
<jdong> GMA950, really.... but if you need more graphical performance than that, it's ATI :)
<ispiked> Burgwork: mozilla has hired most of its good contributors. :P
<Burgwork> yes, yes it has
<ispiked> Burgwork: everyone I can think of already works for Mozilla. 
<ispiked> Burgwork: but I'll keep that in mind.
<jdong> didn't shutdown have a fsck option
<jdong> before upstart?
<shadok> hi
<shadok> is there any date for including a 2.6.18 kernel in repositories ,
<shadok> ?
<Burgwork> shadok: the kernel for 6.10 is frozen
<Burgwork> I believe feisty will use .19, or whatever is the latest stable as of kernel release
<Burgwork> kernel freeze, rather
<shadok> ahok so there is a kernel version per release ?
<Burgwork> yes
<shadok> thanks for the details :)
<Burgwork> no worries
<Burgwork> shadok: are you thinking FC-style?
<Burgwork> with updated kernels after release?
<shadok> how does it work when a critical bug is found ? patching the actual release of the kernel ?
<Burgwork> yes, the patch is backported
<HrdwrBoB> backported patch
<HrdwrBoB> which is the only sane way to do it
<shadok> i'm a gentoo user so kernel versions are regularly updated, i juste was wondering what was about in ubuntu :)
<Burgwork> right
<Burgwork> gentoo has a very different release style than Ubuntu
<shadok> i'll look for a description of backports in ubuntu
<Burgwork> the kernel is never backported
<shadok> ok only the patches
<shadok> is this easy to apply a patch to an ubuntu kernel ?
<Burgwork> that is maintained in git
<shadok> just apt-get it ?
<Burgwork> no, in git
<shadok> just a minute, time to find out what it is ^^
<shadok> ok, are git's repositories the same thant backport ?
<shadok> *than
<Burgwork> no
<Burgwork> ubuntu maintains it kernel is git
<Burgwork> there are branches for each release
<shadok> the problem is that a friend of mine needs a >=2.6.18 kernel to use his webcam, do we have to patch his 2.6.17 kernel or compile a vanilla one or is there another simple way ?
<shadok> ok
<Burgwork> the patch might have been already backported
<Burgwork> check to see if it works
<shadok> ok thx :)
<keescook> so, who do I subscribe to bug 65795 to start the SRU process?  The wiki wasn't clear about how/where to send the proposal, other than making sure it was in the bug too.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65795 in vino "vino won't accept my password" [High,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65795
<lifeless> SSRU ?
<dsas> Stable Release Update ?
<keescook> dsas: yup.
<keescook> I'm going to assume I'm supposed to email mdz and cjwatson directly, since I don't see any SRUs on ubuntu-devel.
<LaserJock> keescook: doesn't the SRU wiki page say?
<dsas> keescook: You probably just want to subscribe mdz and kamion to the bug and paste your proposal in there....
<dsas> at least that's what I get from the wiki page.
<lifeless> BenC: did we end up with xen enabled kernels in edgy by default ?
<BenC> not by default
<BenC> they are in universe
<lifeless> cool
<lifeless> so if I just search for xen in apt, I should be able to figure it out ?
<lifeless> do they have all the other patches regular kernels do ?
<zul> 2.6.17 kernels do 2.6.16 doesnt
<ajmitch> lifeless: x86 or amd64?
<lifeless> k7 (x86)
<ajmitch> ok, 2.6.17 should be fine for you :)
<infinity> BenC: Boo!
<infinity> http://librarian.launchpad.net/4941201/buildlog_ubuntu-feisty-powerpc.linux-source-2.6.19_2.6.19-2.2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<infinity> http://librarian.launchpad.net/4941202/buildlog_ubuntu-feisty-sparc.linux-source-2.6.19_2.6.19-2.2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<ajmitch> good afternoon infinity 
<infinity> BenC: Looks like the linux32 stuff didn't get fixed?
<BenC> infinity: I had it fixed locally, not sure why it's still broken
<BenC> infinity: ppc brokeness I fixed, but wrongly
<BenC> copied it to defconfig instead of ppc_defconfig
<BenC> infinity: I can do another upload in a minute
<BenC> after I figure out what the hell is wrong with sparc
<infinity> Maybe you fixed it in a local test tree, but didn't commit to git? :)
<infinity> (Lord knows I've done that enough times)
<Nafallo> 2.6.17 xenthingie doesn't work :-P
<ajmitch> Nafallo: we know that, ok
<Nafallo> oh. oki.
<Nafallo> I thought it was just me and some few others.
<ajmitch> you've told us about 3 or 4 times that it has issues, we've seen the bugs :)
<Nafallo> I won't upgrade my server then ;-)
<ajmitch> no, it's any amd64 xen kernel
<Nafallo> but the i386 should work?
<zul> yes im running right now
* Nafallo ponders if the might run amd64 guest on i386 host ;-)
<infinity> Not if the host is an i386 kernel, that's for sure.
<Nafallo> oki. have to drop that idea then...
<MrKeuner> hi, is there an environment variable to be set in order for dpkg-buildpackage to use jam instead of make for a particular project?
* Nafallo ska sova, gnatt
<Nafallo> gnight
<LaserJock> MrKeuner: to actually build the source? you can specify the build commands in debian/rules
<MrKeuner> LaserJock: right. OK I'll try that thanks
<keescook> hm, is there a way to explicitly blacklist certain modules during livecd boot?
<MrKeuner> changing #!make to #!jam in debian/rules does not work, what else should I possibly be doing?
* ispiked wonders how much effort making a patch for a package would be.
<LaserJock> MrKeuner: you want debian/rules to use jam?
<LaserJock> MrKeuner: that's kinda odd
<LaserJock> I thought you just wanted to use jam to build the source
<LaserJock> ispiked: it's not terrible. if you want help you can ask #ubuntu-motu
<MrKeuner> LaserJock: the package I would like to compile and create a deb package out of, asks for jam to be used instead of make
<LaserJock> MrKeuner: sure, but you still want to use make to process debian/rules
<LaserJock> MrKeuner: so in the build: rule in debian/rules is where you want to use jam
<MrKeuner> Oh, then What am I actually supposed to do?
<LaserJock> MrKeuner: does that make sense?
<MrKeuner> yes but I cannot find some place to let rules script know that I need it to use jam
<LaserJock> you just use jam instead of make
<MrKeuner> How do I do that?
<infinity> keescook: I thought you were gone for the day. :P
<LaserJock> MrKeuner: can you pastebin your debian/rules file?
<MrKeuner> sure
<LaserJock> !pastebin > MrKeuner 
<infinity> keescook: Also, some sbuild hacking and some manual mangling of previous builds, and everything seems good, except for ia64.
<MrKeuner> LaserJock: http://pastebin.ca/230169
<infinity> #
<infinity>         # Add here commands to compile the arch part of the package.
<infinity> #
<infinity>         #$(MAKE) 
<infinity> That's the part where you'd call jam.
<LaserJock> yeah
<infinity> Also, can you please take this to -motu, or somewhere other than here.
<MrKeuner> Sorry, I thought it wasn't off topic
<infinity> When the question is essentiall "I ran dh_make, and don't know how to edit the template", it's a bit off-topic, yes.  There are plenty of good manuals (and helpful people in -motu) to get you going.
<MrKeuner> OK, I'll remember that thank you for the help.
<Quash> can anyone maybe help a little with a big that is getting a lot of support from users who are experiencing it but no acknowledgement from Ubuntu folks, even though it is quite severe?
<Quash> sorry, not "big" but "bug."  :)
<Quash> a number of us are trying to hash the bug out but are having difficulty, but willing to try whatever Ubuntu bug folks want us to in trying to nail it down.
<LaserJock> Quash: #ubuntu-bugs is the channel you want then :-)
<Quash> LaserJock: thx!
<ajmitch> hey mnepton 
<fabbione> morning
<Fujitsu> Hey fabbione.
<ajmitch> morning fabbione 
<bluefoxicy> I'm going to sleep
<bluefoxicy> whoever cares about CrashReporting, I'm back at AutomatedProblemReportsTagging on the wiki again.  Sleep time for me.
<dholbach> good morning
<ajmitch> morning daniel
<dholbach> how's it going?
<ajmitch> good :)
<ajmitch> we had a lively discussion earlier about universe & edgy-updates :)
<dholbach> ahh!
<ajmitch> see -motu list
<dholbach> it looks good - I'll think about it today and reply to it
<dholbach> thanks for working on it
<Mez> do -proposed uploads need to be uploaded by a core-dev?
<crimsun> no. I presume you're following SRU.
<Mez> well, will be ;)
<Mez> once I get this f**ker working#
<slomo_> keescook: ping?
<jdub> is anyone making Real Compiz packages, instead of all this beryl guff?
<Hobbsee> jdub: isnt compiz already in repos?
<ajmitch> Hobbsee: that's not Real
<Burgundavia> jdub: beryl - because not integrating into GNOME is a great thing for GNOME-based distros
<Hobbsee> ah
<Burgundavia> Hobbsee: that is beryl, pre-fork
<Hobbsee> ahhh
<ajmitch> when they were still denying it was a fork
<Burgundavia> it was just "community patches"
<ajmitch> jdub: we can probably whip up some sane compiz packages for feisty 
<jdub> Hobbsee: it's an old version of the bongsipping branch
<Hobbsee> hehe
<jdub> ajmitch: yeah, i'm thinking of quickly doing one up based on fedora's, which is great
* Hobbsee has used said branch....
<Hobbsee> it didnt set my computer on fire, at least :P
<Burgundavia> not exactly a roaring recommendation there, Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> Burgundavia: hehe, true that
<Burgundavia> getting a good sane compiz is good to end this "beryl is good for us" talk
<mnepton> http://www.tycomsystems.com/beos/BeBook/The%20Kernel%20Kit/System.html
<mnepton> is_computer_on_fire()
<Lathiat> er 
<Lathiat> heh
<Hobbsee> haha, nice
<Lathiat> linux used to say 'lp0: printer on fire' when it ran out of paper apparently
<StevenK> "Returns 1 if the computer is on. If the computer isn't on, the value returned by this function is undefined."
<mnepton> the Be API reflected the long hours worked by Be employees
<DBO> mvo, you here? =)
<mvo> DBO: hello
<DBO> mvo, I dont know if anyone from beryl has thanked you yet, but we owe you a thank you and apology for the backports on mesa
<DBO> I hear you fixed them in the update-manager, thank you very much
<mvo> DBO: no problem, don't worry :)
<DBO> well thats it for me here, if your at UDS I'd like to buy you a cold one
<DBO> goodnight =)
<ajmitch> heh
<Mirv> mvo: Can I direct you to the bug https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/python-apt/+bug/68553 ? Your fix seems to work, and it would be nice to consider having it in eg. dapper-updates... the problem might prevent working update-manager dist-upgrade on thousands of installed machines.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 68553 in update-manager "Dapper upgrade to Edgy: Frozen dist-upgrade and failed second run (in finish locales" [Medium,Confirmed]  
<mvo> Mirv: thanks, I will upload a new version when I get it past the stable-release-updates 
<tepsipakki> what's wrong with feisty-changes archives.. they seem to be lagging
<dholbach> really?
<tepsipakki> that's the impression I get
<dholbach> how so?
<Spads> the archiver is very heavily loaded
<tepsipakki> or is it that the uploads are being accepted later
<tepsipakki> the latest post to it seems to be linux-source from last thursday
<tepsipakki> no biggie, I'm just used to follow -changes ;)
<seb128> do we need to subscribe the feisty-changes? or somebody is going to subscribe the people who were subscribed to edgy-changes?
<tepsipakki> Spads: too many lists :)
<Hobbsee> seb128: i believe you have to subscribe yoruself
<Spads> tepsipakki: well, lists used in place of syslog :)
<fabbione> seb128: you need to sub yourself
<seb128> bah
<seb128> ok
<seb128> who is listadmin nowadays? he's being lazy ;)
<dholbach> seb128: Spads! ;-)
<Spads> No, I'm not list admin
<Spads> although I can be
<seb128> dholbach: liar!
<seb128> :)
<Spads> nah, he's close enough
<Spads> I see no pending moderation events
* dholbach hugs Spads
<seb128> the question was why people need to subscribe again ;)
* dholbach can remember seeing the question for at least 3 releases ;)
* Spads is new kid on the block
<seb128> dholbach: not true, liar again!
<dholbach> the problem was always the same
* Keybuk thought jdub used to copy the subscription list
<seb128> no
<ajmitch> feisty uploads are probably being approved manually
<seb128> jdub used to subscribe me
<seb128> Keybuk: he did
<dholbach> oh? then he did it only for his special friends 
<Keybuk> it's possible that he used to copy certain bits of the list
<Keybuk> or certain lists of people
<seb128> dholbach: like everybody expected you ;)
<seb128> the distro team by example ;)
<seb128> s/expected/excepted
<dholbach> seb128: only the important people, like you
* seb128 kicks dholbach
<dholbach> :-)
<seb128> stop whining :p
<dholbach> I didn't whine!
<dholbach> I subscribed to feisty-changes on my own
<seb128> so stop complaining you were not automatically subscribed to new lists previous cycles :p
<dholbach> eeeeeeehhhh?
* seb128 hugs dholbach
* dholbach confiscates some people's crack pipes
* dholbach hugs seb128 back
<ajmitch> dholbach: getting picked on? :)
<Hobbsee> dholbach: but crack pipes are fun!
<dholbach> get working on some bug reports! :-)
* dholbach hugs ajmitch and Hobbsee
<ajmitch> yessir!
<Hobbsee> dholbach: we cant upload yet!
* Hobbsee hugs dholbach 
* Hobbsee attacks ajmitch with a Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (tm)
<dholbach> I'm triaging like crazy without uploading packages :)
<ajmitch> kind of you
<Hobbsee> indeed
<dholbach> lots of crash reports since the release
<seb128> dholbach: that's really nice to see you cracking on bugs again ;)
* seb128 thinks we should not open feisty before some weeks so people can catch up on bug triage :p
<dholbach> there is no "catching up"
<jdub> seb128: as much as i love you
<jdub> seb128: it is true that i grepped for ubuntu.com :-)
<jdub> seb128: as opposed to special casing you ;-)
<cjwatson> tepsipakki: so, is it your belief that more than four uploads have been accepted into feisty so far?
<seb128> jdub: haha
* seb128 hugs jdub
<jdub> ARE YOU NOW OR HAVE YOU EVER BEEN UPLOADED TO FEISTY?
<jdub> by the way
<jdub> i am fixing my irc client now
<jdub> such that every time i type "feisty"
<jdub> it appears as "fisty"
<fabbione> ahha
* ogra tries to hold back his coffee
<dholbach> "fesity" is popular too
<dholbach> but not as funny :)
* StevenK idly wonders how he can take over a spec.
<ajmitch> StevenK: what are you wanting to hijack?
<StevenK> ajmitch: about-ubuntu
<ajmitch> aha
<ajmitch> was that mpt's?
<StevenK> Yup.
* StevenK has spent roughly an hour coding bad Python for it. :-)
<ajmitch> hehe
<ajmitch> I thought he already had something for it..
<StevenK> So did I, but I got sick of trying to corner him.
<ajmitch> he's usually not that hard to hunt down
<mpt> hmm?
<ajmitch> there he GOES
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> hey mpt
* mpt tries hibernating with 6.10, and fails
<StevenK> ajmitch: To be honest, I've spent that little on it, that I don't mind throwing it.
<ajmitch> mpt: have you got any code for about-ubuntu ?
<Keybuk> what's a good package for making graphs?
<Keybuk> is there anything "prettier" than gnuplot?
<infinity> Probably, but gnuplot works..
<mpt> ajmitch, yes
<mpt> I haven't done the drag-and-drop, though
<ajmitch> in bzr somewhere?
<mpt> and the key combo for closing the window has broken somehow
<mpt> No, it's not in bzr
<mpt> Hmm, I wonder if I can use this "Launchpad" thing for hosting it
<ajmitch> apparantly you can
<StevenK> mpt: If you want to share what you have, I can hack on it.
<LedStyle> Hey guys... who will get this bug? https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/67084 - The time is not syncing right... We all that live here in Sao Paulo are having problems with the time!
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 67084 in tzdata "[Edgy]  Ubuntu Installer - Time Configuration" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
<LedStyle> Its just a imple bug :(
<LedStyle> simple*
<infinity> dholbach: Heh.  I really should see about stealing that LP name.  You're not the first one to do that. :/
* dholbach hugs infinity
<dholbach> I'll bear it in mind, the next time
<dholbach> infinity: I'm sure elmo could make an 'error' in Launchpad happen ;-)
<seb128> LedStyle: ask jbaily or pitti when they are around
<infinity> Well, so could I.
<infinity> dholbach: Unfortunately, there's currently no way to link two different usernames, so "stealing" the account wouldn't do much good.
<LedStyle> seb128, ok. But i would like to indicate that bug to the correct team and package (upstream). No one look bug in Rosetta? :(
<mpt> StevenK, ok, I'm trying to work out how to register it on Launchpad
<dholbach> infinity: I'm sure stub can run some SQL queries accidentally. :)
<seb128> LedStyle: the bug is fixed with the new tzdata, it's a matter of backporting the fix
<infinity> dholbach: I could accidentally whack the account, my point is that there's no way in the code to make people/adconrad == people/infnity
<infinity> I really should file a bug about that, rather than the informal "hey, is this possible" I did on #lp...
<dholbach> ah ok.
<StevenK> mpt: Right.
<LedStyle> ok seb128 tks.
<seb128> np
<LedStyle> seb128, its just because this edgy time sux. Its displaying gmt-2 but its gmt -3. Im using another place in configs :D
<seb128> LedStyle: I understand the issue, that's because the summer time change is wrong to tzdata, should be fixed soon when you really change for summer time :p
<LedStyle> seb128, and maybe return to normal time before too :D
<ajmitch> infinity: filing sync request for libselinux - you were last to touch it, so I thought I'd let you know before you spent any time on it
<ajmitch> only ubuntu change is fixed upstream
<infinity> ajmitch: Fine by me.  I don't even remember why I was the last to touch it. :)
<infinity> Oh, PAGE_SIZE.
<infinity> Are you sure that's fixed in Debian?
<ajmitch> yeah, checked the changelog
<infinity> Kay.
<ajmitch>   * Bug fix: "libselinux: FTBFS on powerpc (refers to PAGE_SIZE not
<ajmitch> etc
* mpt is flummoxed by "gpg: can't connect to `/home/mpt/.gnome2/seahorse-.../S.gpg-agent': Conection refused"
<mpt> StevenK, I'll push the code as soon as I find a solution to the gpg problem preventing me from committing
<cjwatson> mpt: sounds like you have gpg configured to use an agent, but you don't have an agent running
<cjwatson> unless seahorse does that itself in which case I have no idea
<mpt> I use bzr commit with no trouble in my Launchpad branches
<jdub> Keybuk: reportlab
<StevenK> mpt: Okay, cool.
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: if i've got a package that has ftbfs in edgy, do i need to go thru the whole SRU policy to get a fix in?
<Hobbsee> (and it wasnt in dapper)
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: yes, afraid so; talk to dholbach if it's universe, I don't know the policy there offhand
<StevenK> cjwatson: Universe has a policy for SRU? :-P
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: okay.
<Hobbsee> StevenK: it's getting one.
<cjwatson> StevenK: well, it ain't getting past ubuntu-archive without *some* kind of decision on one ...
<StevenK> cjwatson: Yeah, well, that's a point.
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: what, you mean that sweet talking doesnt work?   :P
<tfheen> Hobbsee: you can always try bribing him with decent beer.
<mnepton> or indecent women
<StevenK> He'd probably want the beer warm, though.
* StevenK ducks.
<Hobbsee> tfheen: hehe
<Hobbsee> mnepton: no way.
* StevenK wonders if the dapper version of bzr will have any problems talking to the supermirror.
<Keybuk> ah, now I remember why I dislike gnuplot
<Keybuk> it's easy to draw 3D representations of the flow of air across a curved surface ...
<Keybuk> ...yet it can't do a ruddy pie chart
<tfheen> pies are best out of the oven
<jdub> Keybuk: reportlab!
<Keybuk> W: Unable to locate package reportlab
<ogra> libgd :)
<Keybuk> jdub: this appears to not be what I want?  tool for generating PDF reports?!
<tfheen> hmm, vlock -a as root when not having a root password sent isn't the smartest thing I've done. :-)
<_ion> Hehe.
<_ion> +
<_ion> Whoops.
<jonh_wendell> how can i become a package maintainer? or i cant'?
<luisbg> jonh_wendell, go to #ubuntu-motu
<ogra> jonh_wendell, you become a MOTU 
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<jonh_wendell> but the package is in main
<jonh_wendell> i'm talking about rdesktop package
<ogra> well, you will have to go through MOTU first 
<Mez> mdz / Kamion ping
<ogra> nobody enters main directly
<Mez> neither are here ;)
<Hobbsee> Mez: kamion is - cjwatson 
<ogra> but indeed you can work together with a main uploader who reviews your patches to get your stuff into main
<ogra> Mez, he's incognito ...
<Hobbsee> why is everyone turning incognito now???
<Mez> cjwatson, ping ;)
<jsgotangco> Hobbsee: why not? its well deserved rest
<Hobbsee> because...
<jonh_wendell> ogra: ok, latter i'll check this. Thanks
<ogra> jonh_wendell, since i'll have to do some work with rdesktop in feisty for ltsp integration, feel free to ping me, i'll be likely touching it in feisty ...
<jonh_wendell> ogra: actually i'd like to learn how that process works. rdesktop 1.5 is available in debian. What must be done in ubuntu?
<ogra> nothing :)
<ogra> it will get autosynced
<jonh_wendell> autosynced?
<cjwatson> Mez: what?
<cjwatson> Mez: (please include payload with your pings)
<Mez> cjwatson: regarding a SRU for katapult ;)
<jonh_wendell> ogra: when? how? why? :)
<ogra> jonh_wendell, yep ... once the archive is opne for feisty, the automatical sync from debioan will start
<ogra> *open
<cjwatson> Mez: subscribe ubuntu-release to the bug
<cjwatson> Mez: and send mail to notify us - IRC will get lost
<jonh_wendell> ogra: so, there is no reason to open a bug like bug 68701?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 68701 in rdesktop "New version (1.5), sync from debian" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68701
<Mez> ;) to you and mdz?
<cjwatson> Mez: yes.
<cjwatson> jonh_wendell: correct
<ogra> jonh_wendell, not for feisty ... if people want it in another release, it should be assigned to the backports team once its in feisty  and backportable
* cjwatson rejects
<Mez> cjwatson, <yourcurrentnick>@ubuntu.com / mdz@ubuntu.com
<cjwatson> Mez: launchpad is --> that way
<Mez> cjwatson, ah yes - lol
<jonh_wendell> ogra: i'm trying to install rdesktop 1.5 from debian, but there is a dependency broken: libssl0.9.8 >= 0.9.8c-1, but edgy has 0.9.8.b. How this issue is handled in ubuntu?
<cjwatson> jonh_wendell: we rebuild all packages from source; library dependencies are automatically generated during the build and often differ
<ogra> well, for feisty we'll get the new libssl0.9.8 version 
<mvo_> cjwatson: can you approve SRU for the dist-upgrader? or should I wait for mdz for this?
<ogra> for an edgy backport the backports team would have to check if it runs with the older version
<cjwatson> mvo_: mail rather than IRC, please?
<cjwatson> I haven't done any SRUs for edgy yet, though ...
<mvo_> cjwatson: sure, I will prepare it and send it
<Mez> cjwatson, SRU emailed
<jonh_wendell> let's suppose that i am the rdesktop mainteiner. Must i have in my system different versions of libs?
<jonh_wendell> in order to build it?
<ogra> no
<ogra> we only develop for the recent development version (feisty atm)
<ogra> so you only have to care for that one 
<jonh_wendell> i'm going to install debian's newer libssl and rdesktop in order to try rdesktop 1.5
<jonh_wendell> in edgy
<tfheen> jonh_wendell: why not just recompile 1.5?
<cjwatson> jonh_wendell: our binaries are all built in our datacentre machines, not by maintainers
<cjwatson> the machines in the datacentre have chroots for various different releases in order to be able to build binaries for them
<jonh_wendell> tfheen: not recompile, but compile
<jonh_wendell> tfheen: because i'd have to install a lot of -dev packages...
<cjwatson> jonh_wendell: it's "recompile" because Debian has already compiled it
* cjwatson sees your pedantry and raises you some more pedantry
<tfheen> jonh_wendell: ... yes, and?
<cjwatson> 'apt-get build-dep rdesktop'; it's not that hard
<HrdwrBoB> recompiling rdesktop would require sfa more than build-essential
* Hobbsee sees cjwatson's more pedantry, and raises him a duck.
<cjwatson> Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 4.0.0), autotools-dev, libxt-dev, libx11-dev, x-dev, libssl-dev
<tfheen> HrdwrBoB: which is why we have those things called build-deps.  Quite useful.
<jonh_wendell> cjwatson: yes, i wanted to try this, but it fetches 1.4 version from edgy
<jonh_wendell> cjwatson: how can i do a apt-get source rdesktop and fetch 1.5 version?
<cjwatson> jonh_wendell: who cares? the build-dependencies are identical
<cjwatson> jonh_wendell: lftp http://ftp.debian.org/debian/pool/main/r/rdesktop/
<kolape> When will edgy.1 be released?
<thom> cjwatson: dget ftw :-)
<jono> do we do dailies every day in the development period?
<bhale> jono: roughly, but you have to wait until things get kicked off
<jono> bhale, thats cool
<jono> I am thinking of ways to get more feedback about hardware support from the community
<jono> and, more feedback about software too
<bhale> usually snapshot releases are close enough together
<Hobbsee> jono: for edgy or feisty?
<bhale> to catch kernel regressions in time
<jono> feisty
<bhale> if you keep on top of every one
<jono> cool
<jono> the problem is for mythtv hardware - most people have a single mythtv box and won;t want to run feisty on it
<Treenaks> jono: "get bug 20283 fixed and I'll buy you beer".. stuff like that?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 20283 in xserver-xorg-driver-ati "[fgl v5000]  really bad sync" [Unknown,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/20283
<jono> so live cds seem an option, or possibly VMs, but I assume hardware in VMs is not 100% the same
<jonh_wendell> ogra: rdesktop 1.5 clipboard feature is cool! i've installed it from debian, just needed update libssl0.9.8
<jono> Treenaks, my thought is that we need to get more feedback from the community - I spoke to mdz about this the other week, getting more people to test hardware support and other things
<ogra> Treenaks, thats 1 year old ... dont you think its time for an intel graphics based laptop ? :P
* ogra hides
<Hobbsee> jono: there are plenty who do - but they post their experiences on the forums.
<jono> Hobbsee, well that is part of this too, figuring how to best get info from the forums into bug reports too
<Hobbsee> jono: /query me @ that
<Treenaks> ogra: it's one year old, but it's MINE! :P
<ogra> heh
<Treenaks> (and it's 1920x1200..)
<sladen> jono: can you get the forums guys to put "The Forums are /not/ a bugtracker" (better wording) at the top of every page
<jono> :)
<ogra> yeah, that would be helpful
<Treenaks> sladen: the same is true for IRC, I gues
<Treenaks> s
<_ion> Let's move bug tracking to forums! No, let's move forums to launchpad! No, let's move both to the wiki instead!
<ogra> put a link into near the header (/via css or something) leading directly to the https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+filebug page
<ogra> *inot or near
* Treenaks takes ogra off the caffeine
<ogra> i had not enough yet 
<ogra> (and i should be packing my stuff for tomorrow and not slacking on IRC)
<jono> right now, do we have a guide that tells users how to submit a bug?
<Hobbsee> jono: yes, but it's incredibly convoluted.  somewhere.  you'd also need to have a guide to show them how to use launchpad
* sladen boogles.  18months went past that fast?
<Treenaks> "Filing a bug" and having people care for it is actually a new experience for most people who are new to free software/open source
* StevenK checks on Hoary.
<Hobbsee> StevenK: it's out of date now.
<StevenK> Yes, but it's still SUPPORTED.
<Hobbsee> jono: really, it needs a better guide.  i believe mozilla had/has quite a good guide on how to file a bug, which i learned off
<Hobbsee> StevenK: not as of 26 mins ago, i believe
<StevenK> Hobbsee: According to Launchpad it still is.
<jono> well I am looking at creating a really simple four or five step guide to submitting a bug
<jono> before I can work to get more feedback, I need to ensure that anyone can find it simple to submit a bug
<Hobbsee> StevenK: LP is not in our timezone
<Hobbsee> jono: with screenshots, probably
<StevenK> Neither is the security team.
<jono> Hobbsee, exactly
<jono> what is the situation with firmware? as an example ivtv uses some firmware to work, can we not ship it or can it go in a restricted repo somewhere?
<cjwatson> depends whether we are legally allowed to redistribute the firmware
<tfheen> jono: depends on whether it's redistributable or not.
<jono> right, so if the owners if the firmware gave permission for redistribution it is fine
<jono> I believe they gave permission to knoppmyth, but I am not sure if that is general redistribution
<cjwatson> ideally the permission shouldn't be specific to us, otherwise we have to worry about what our mirrors are allowed to do
<Whoopie> hi, we have an issue with a python package which is in an external repo. The package uses python-support, but after installation, python-support only builds the modules for python-2.5, not python-2.4. But in Debian Etch, this package works. Any ideas?
<Whoopie> there is no pyversions file which could prevend building the python2.4 modules.
<cjwatson> XS-Python-Version in debian/control?
<cjwatson> weirdness in debian/rules?
<cjwatson> (it might call pyversions -blah)
<Whoopie> cjwatson: no X[SB] -Python-Version. and debian/rules is http://en.pastebin.ca/230842
<cjwatson> you probably want doko, TBH
<Whoopie> cjwatson: ok, thanks
<Whoopie> doko: ping
<doko> Whoopie: I don't know the package you are using
<Whoopie> doko: ok, just in general, what could cause python-support not to build the /var/lib/python-support/python2.4/ files`
<doko> Whoopie: no idea without knowing the package
<Whoopie> it's python-httplib, sorry, I didn't mention it.
<Whoopie> python-httplib2
<doko> Whoopie: nice, now I know the package name, but it's not in the archive
<Whoopie> ok, next step: it's in Debian Etch and we'd like to put in an external repo for edgy.
<Whoopie> http://packages.debian.org/testing/libs/python-httplib2
<bddebian> Howdy
<Whoopie> doko: sorry for not giving you all the needed infos. I'd be grateful if you helped me.
<doko> Whoopie: I'll have a look tomorrow
<Whoopie> doko: thanks a lot.
<sbalneav> Who's one of our gnome hackers?
<sivang> sbalneav: tell what you need, I may be able to help.
<sbalneav> Mind if I /query you, its less strictly devel, and more related to my deployment of edubuntu :)
<sivang> sbalneav: not at all!
<Adri2000> if a package is updated in edgy after the release (i.e. now), what does the feisty package become? is it automatically synced?
<seb128> Adri2000: no
<Adri2000> seb128: so how feisty will get the changes made in edgy?
<seb128> it'll not
<seb128> or people will have to upload the fixes to feisty too
<seb128> that's not like there was a zillion of changes to edgy now anyway
<Adri2000> ok
<desrt> feisty!
<desrt> (seriously...)
<Keybuk> http://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html#stats
<seb128> Keybuk: what is "Local"?
<Keybuk> seb128: only exists in Ubuntu
<Amaranth> Ubuntu has over 1,000 packages that don't exist in any form in Debian?
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> language packs
<Keybuk> :)
<Amaranth> oh!
<Amaranth> phew
<seb128> the colors of the stats have nothing to do with those of the list, right?
<Keybuk> seb128: no
<seb128> k
* ogra glares at bug 69523
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 69523 in xscreensaver "Disability hostile: many of the pre-installed screensavers trigger migraine" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/69523
<keescook> can an ubuntu-core-dev sign and upload my vino edgy-proposed changes?  (bug 65795 has been approved for SRU into -proposed)  http://people.ubuntu.com/~kees/edgy-fixes/
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65795 in vino "vino won't accept my password" [High,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65795
<luisbg> sorry to bother but... so when is feisty fully coming out?
<ogra> in april
<luisbg> ogra, I ment for development/unstable
<ogra> as soon as LP and the toolchanin are ready
<luisbg> ok, cool
<luisbg> thanks =)
<seb128> keescook: looking at it
<keescook> seb128: okay, thanks.
<seb128> keescook: uploaded
* keescook hugs seb128
* seb128 hugs keescook back
<seb128> thank you for the quick fix ;)
<keescook> you're welcome!  I hadn't played with Remote Desktop before (and someone flagged it as "security"), so it got my attention.  :)
<seb128> hehe ;)
<cjwatson> Adri2000: we checked the analogous situation with dapper-updates and edgy shortly before the release of edgy, and there were (IIRC) precisely five packages where dapper-updates > edgy
<cjwatson> Adri2000: that sort of volume is trivial to resolve by hand
<Adri2000> indeed :)
<hunger> When will the repros for feisty open up?
<thom> uh, last week?
<hunger> thom: They are there already? Cool!
<sfllaw> keescook: Thanks for the ping.
<sfllaw> keescook: From what I understand of the bug, reproduction steps are to set a password, log out, log back in, and try to VNC?
<sfllaw> That should break it?
<keescook> sfllaw: that's correct.
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<keescook> or better yet: set a password, verify you can VNC in, then log out and back in, and now you can't VNC.  :)
<sfllaw> Right.
<cjwatson> hunger: we're just sorting out the toolchain before making it generally available for uploads. At the moment that seems to be expected to be done sometime this week.
<hunger> cjwatson: Good... i am so bored without the daily adrenalin rush when updating;-)
<slomo_> keescook: ping?
<keescook> slomo_: pong! what's up?
<slomo_> keescook: hi :) i saw that you've written the mpeg2dec documentation... i'm currently debugging a crasher with the gstreamer plugin for it on ppc which the gstreamer guys assume is caused by wrong buffer alignment... do you know anything about required alignment? the docs don't say anything about it
<keescook> slomo_: ah!  Yeah, the docs I wrote may be kind of old, I did it mostly because I barely understood the code myself.  :)
<keescook> there _shouldn't_ be an alignment issue, I don't think.
<keescook> can you point me to the bug?
<keescook> I've got a PPC local I can use to reproduce it.
<slomo_> keescook: it only happens with an altivec enabled libmpeg2 which ubuntu doesn't have because of this bug... it's http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=327350 and i can reproduce it with various files and pipelines on my ibook ;)
<Ubugtu> Gnome bug 327350 in gst-plugins-ugly "[mpeg2dec]  altivec crashes on misaligned buffers" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
<keescook> aah, with altivec, yeah, that may have alignment issues...
<slomo_> question is... what's the correct alignment? :)
<keescook> slomo_: dunno, I will read through this.  I've got a buddy that's done a bunch of altivec work, so I'll ping him about it too.
<slomo_> keescook: ok, thanks... i'll try to find some time for fixing or at least further debugging it tomorrow
<keescook> I find it weird that it crashes during a "free".  That would imply a heap overflow... I'll continue digging.
<slomo_> keescook: or general memory corruption... when not running in valgrind or gdb glibc tells about a double free
<keescook> slomo_: yeah.  something bad in there.  :)
<slomo_> keescook: btw, a similar crash happens at least on amd64 too but not as often as on ppc
<mvo> a quick poll, we need a better name for "dist-upgrade". it should describe what it is we do with the update-manager when moving from dist-1 to dist. current candidates are "ReleaseUpgrade". any other suggestions?
<keescook> slomo_: okay, I'll look
<slomo_> keescook: thanks :) please tell me when you find something useful :)
<keescook> slomo_: for sure!  :)
<thom> mvo: this is just for u-m? not apt-get? 
<keescook> mvo: ReleaseUpgrade sounds good
<mvo> thom: yes, just for u-m, to make it clear that its not the same as the apt-get dist-upgrade command
* mvo likes ReleaseUpgrade as well
<thom> yeah, ReleaseUpgrade is probably good
<cjwatson> I'd prefer not wiki-case, but yes
<cjwatson> (i.e. release-upgrade or release-upgrader or similar)
<keescook> oh, I assumed it was for the wiki.  :P
<PSUSI> for a bug report that applies upstream ( the kernel ) for which a fix is in linus's tree now, should the status be set to fix released?  or in progress since it has not made its way into ubuntu yet ( we are still using the older kernel )
<zul> PSUSI: is there a patch available in the bug report?
<PSUSI> no... but it is upstream in linus's kernel so when we update, we will get it
<ajmitch> morning
<bddebian> Heya ajmitch
<zul> PSUSI: depends if the bug is 2.6.17 and the fix is in 2.6.18 then we would have to backport it 
<PSUSI> the fix is in 2.6.19, but it is not a security bug so that means it won't be backported no?
<zul> it depends on how simple the fix is
<PSUSI> I'm prety sure it is not simple, and it is a performance issue only... reiserfs used to load the entire volume block bitmap on mount, so for very large volumes mounting took a very long time
<PSUSI> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.15/+bug/47010
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 47010 in linux-source-2.6.15 "ReiserFS mount is dog-slow on Promise FastTrack 376 RAID" [Medium,Unconfirmed]  
<zul> yeah this probably wont be backported
<PSUSI> so what should the status be set to?
<zul> i would reject it myself
<PSUSI> rejected eh?  bugs that won't be fixed until the next release cycle are rejected?
<PSUSI> that doesn't make much sense
<PSUSI> I was thinking at least confirmed, if not in progress
<zul> not really in progress but confirmed yes
<PSUSI> ok... confirmed it is
<keescook> slomo_: do you have a small mpeg that causes the problem?  pitti's example doesn't exist any more.
<slomo_> keescook: nothing small but i could reproduce it on all mpeg files i tried (remember to use libmpeg2-4 from debian as ubuntu's has altivec disabled)
<Imrahil> has there been a regression in libfreetype6? native font rendering on msttcorefonts seems messed up
<pygi> siretart: sec for me? :)
<Imrahil> ^ using native, subpixel, full hinting mode, tahoma, trebuchet look strange
<siretart> pygi: perhaps? ;)
<pygi> siretart: there is a partial -tao in libburn now, yay ^_^
<siretart> pygi: w00t!
<pygi> siretart: somebody should have said to me that sao vs. tao differences are minimal  :P
<siretart> ;)
<pygi> just you laugh :P
<pygi> siretart: and I've been evaluating dvd implementation
<pygi> siretart: I can't believe how simple it seems now :P
<pygi> siretart: if you showed me that like half year before I'd stare at it knowing nothing :P
<pygi> only thing I still can't figure out is multi sessions
<pygi> well, I can actually but it requires substantial amount of work :P
<siretart> hoestly, I have no idea how cdburning actually works on hardware level
<pygi> siretart: oki, but I still feel the need to bug you ^_^
<siretart> I imaged that some magic scsi commands were sent over the bus, but I don't speak scsi
<siretart> pygi: hehe. no problem :)
<pygi> siretart: I'll stop for today :P
<pygi> you have 2 hours of rest now ^_^
<siretart> pygi: do you happen to be in #cdrkit?
<pygi> siretart: no, I left that channel
<siretart> why?
<pygi> siretart: people in there have some serious problems accepting advices
<siretart> ic
<pygi> at least that's what I experienced
<pygi> siretart: anything interesting happening? :)
<siretart> pygi: oh, I've been busy with my thesis lately
<pygi> siretart: aha, and how is that going?
<siretart> pygi: say, libburn doesn't happen to be written in c++, is it?
<pygi> siretart: nop, C
<pygi> siretart: why?
<siretart> the thesis is going okay. I wished I had already written more, but that's normal I think
<pygi> siretart: nice to hear :)
<siretart> pygi: because I'm doing AOP (aspect oriented programming) at runtime with C++ in my thesis
<pygi> oh :)
<siretart> pygi: and I'm still looking for interesting projects for my thesis
<siretart> pygi: the infrastructure doesn't support plain C projects yet. the static aspect weaver uses c++ features like templates heavily
<pygi> siretart: right, sorry that I can't be of help there :-/
<siretart> my advisor is working on plain C support, but it's not there yet. perhaps in 6 to 12 months
<pygi> o joy, that's a lot :P
<siretart> pygi: I cannot really think of cross cutting concerns in a cd writing application or library either (besides the standard example tracing, of course)
<pygi> siretart: will have to get offline for a bit
<siretart> pygi: okay. have fun! (with whatever ;)
<gnomefreak> mvo: you around? i have user with weird update-manager issues
<gnomefreak> its asking him to remove X dir.
<fdoving> mdz: SRU request: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kopete/+bug/69583
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 69583 in kopete "SRU: kopete can't connect to ICQ. " [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
<mvo> gnomefreak: hello, yes. I'm here. is this a message from from x11-common?
<gnomefreak> yes
<gnomefreak> he removed everything inside it :(
<gnomefreak> now any command i give him to run including --reinstall x11-common gives depends issues
<mvo> gnomefreak: urgs, can you put the output of "dpkg --configure -a;apt-get install -f" on a pastebin please? 
<mdz> fdoving: please describe what the patch does in the changelog, rather than simply saying that you added a patch
<mvo> gnomefreak: assuming that those commands fail
<gnomefreak> ok let me get him to try
<mvo> gnomefreak: we should probably move this to #ubuntu-bugs or a different channel 
<gnomefreak> mvo: can you join #ubuntu-classroom as i have him in there
<Aualin> Hi
<Aualin> HOW THE HELL DO YOU MANAGE TO BREAK PRISM DRIVERS?!?!?!?!?!
<claviola> I AGREE WITH THE PERSON ON THE EDGE ABOVE!!  AAAARRRRGHHH
<Burgwork> Aualin: can you please rephrase that?
<claviola> Say old chaps, I can't help but notice the mechanism that empowers my Prism computer device is suffering from a malady.  Heavens, this is quite the quandary for my day to day over the air transactions!
<Aualin> how the hell can you even MANAGE to BREAK open-source drivers?
<Aualin> prism cards has the best support in linux, AND YOU MUST BE THE FIRST TO BREAK IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Aualin> i cant understand how you even can realese such crap!
<claviola> Aualin: have
<Aualin> edgy is very crappy WITHOUT PRISM SUPPORT
<Aualin> brb
<crimsun> ok, instead of being vitriolic, can you point us to a bug you've filed in Launchpad?
<claviola> As a great man once said, "Everything you say to me / Takes me one step closer to the edge / And I'm about to break".
<sid> I switched from xubuntu to ubuntu(I was on xubuntu and did apt-get install ubuntu-desktop), gnome works fine and all. But my bootsplash when I first boot(before gdm) shows xubuntu splash screen. How do I change that?
<claviola> sid: you need to reconfigure usplash
<sid> thanks
<claviola> install "usplash-theme-ubuntu"
<cjwatson> sid: sudo update-alternatives --config usplash-artwork.so; sudo update-initramfs -u
<cjwatson> claviola: ubuntu-desktop already depends on that
<claviola> ah.  my ubuntu specific knowledge is only cursory, sorry.
<BenC> Can a distro person approve linux-source-2.6.19 for feisty please?
<Aualin> ok back
<Aualin> I CANT USE NVIDIA DRIVERS BECAUSE OF YOU BREAKING THE PIRMS DRIVERS!!
<Aualin> its a hell!
<Aualin> GET YOURSELF SOME PRISM CARDS
<crimsun> ok, instead of being vitriolic, can you point us to a bug you've filed in Launchpad?
<Aualin> AND HAVE FUN NOT GETTING OUT OM THE NET!
<Aualin> HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
<Burgwork> Aualin: please calm down
<Aualin> you are funny
<Aualin> a bug on launchpad?
<Aualin> are you guys blind?
<Aualin> gotta sleep now
<Adri2000> we are not blind but you are deaf
<Adri2000> :x
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o tseng]  by ChanServ
<tseng> ah too bad
<ajmitch> hello tseng 
<tseng> hi there.
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o tseng]  by tseng
<bhale> hello, ubunteros
<mcsmurf> someone here knows who is the person who is responsible for the Firefox 2 package in Ubuntu? I have a question regarding the build id
<mcsmurf> and the user-agent used
<seb128> mcsmurf: iwj maintains it, he's usually around during working hours european time
<mcsmurf> ok, it's a bit later already ;)
<mcsmurf> but the thingy in 6.10 is supposed to be FF 2 final or am I wrong here?
<seb128> it is yep
<mcsmurf> look at the user-agent
<mcsmurf> the build id seems to be in the past somewhat, no?
<mcsmurf> or do the build machines run with the wrong time/date :-D ?
<mcsmurf> (2006-06-01)
<seb128> dunno
<fdoving> mdz: done.
#ubuntu-devel 2006-11-01
<cbx33> Hi guys just put a sound card into my edgy machine....and now the system is really really laggy, but with no visible processes running....IRQ conflict?
<HrdwrBoB> possibly, but certianly not relevant
<HrdwrBoB> probably best for another channel
<Nafallo> mdz, cjwatson: hi! I just installed gnome-hearts, which segfaults on start. I found bug #65274 with a proposed patch from the upstream author. I'm currently have a package for edgy-updates in my pbuilder. does it sound like a candidate for getting approved?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65274 in gnome-hearts "Hearts crashes on startup" [High,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65274
<ajmitch> Nafallo: it's universe
<Nafallo> ajmitch: yes. according to the wikipage I was pointed to this is the way for SRU.
<ajmitch> StableReleaseUpdates is for main
<Nafallo> yay
<ajmitch> I said that we were discussing universe policy on the list
<Nafallo> yea, but I took it like we followed that wikipage until something new was established.
<Nafallo> ajmitch: so this means we can't push universe stuff to edgy-updates atm? until the policy is clear that is...
<ajmitch> that's why we're trying to agrre on it by the end of the week
<Nafallo> ah.
<Nafallo> the package fixed it anyway ;-)
<Nafallo> so pending-upload :-P
<Nafallo> mdz, cjwatson: sorry for the noice, nm.
<mvo> sfllaw: ping?
<sfllaw> mvo: Pong.
<mvo> sfllaw: I send you a mail about possible qa for the dist-upgrade testing some days ago. I just wanted to add that we might want to add a plain "apt-get dist-upgrade" into that scenario as well. 
<mvo> and check if that upgrades somewhat cleanly and doesn't want to remove e.g. a installed ubuntu-desktop
<sfllaw> That seems reasonable.
<sfllaw> I did do some Edgy dist-upgrading.
<sfllaw> From Dapper installs.
<sfllaw> But it is, uhm, difficult to figure out whether certain things will go well.
<sfllaw> Especially for people who did Breezy -> Dapper -> Edgy.
<sfllaw> Many of them lost their X drivers.
<mvo> yeah, I think the fix in https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/68430 should help them
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 68430 in xorg "Dependencies allow driver packages to be removed too easily" [Medium,Confirmed]  
<mvo> sfllaw: I agree, upgrades are the hardest thing for QA 
<ajmitch> mvo: are there any specs up for discussion on this at UDS?
<sfllaw> mvo: This is probably why we're among the crazy ones.
<sfllaw> mvo: That debdiff looks like it will solve that.  Good job.
* sfllaw hugs mvo.
* Fujitsu lost X drivers on two or three Breezy->Dapper->Edgy machines.
<ajmitch> ah, dist-upgrader-fixes it is
<mvo> ajmitch: yes, we will discuss how to make the whole thing more robust
<sfllaw> The simplest thing is to convince more people to dist-upgrade before release.  :)
<ajmitch> was just looking what to subscribe to :)
<mvo> sfllaw: thanks :)
* mvo yawns
<sfllaw> Same here.
<mvo> I think I will go to bed now
<mvo> bybye everyone
<jdong> what was the command again for disabling autoremove for a kubuntu-desktop metapackage?
<sfllaw> jdong: What do you mean by that?
<jdong> Whenever I remove the kubuntu-desktop metapackage, apt-get will bug me about 50+ packages that can be autoremoved
<jdong> this is nonsense... I do not wish to autoremove them
<bhale> it doesnt autoremove them
<bhale> it just tells you about it
<bhale> becuase they have no depends
<jdong> bhale: I know. I don't want it telling me about those particular packages
<jdong> it's bothersome
<jdong> now all my APT output is twice as long
<bhale> sorry you are bothered
<jdong> I remember there was a -o something that could be used to exclude packages from autoremove....
<bhale> launchpad is a more productive way to air your greivances than to complain on irc late at night
<jdong> I'm not complaining....
<jdong> I'm asking....
<_ion> You could remove or modify /var/lib/apt/extended_states :-)
<jdong> _ion: ooh, that's close :)
<jdong> I guess I can make that work
<_ion> It sucks that it isn't synchronized with aptitude's similar database.
<jdong> grr, any good ideas on how to turn apt-get autoremove's output into a script to modify extended_states?
<jdong> :D
<TheMuso> c
<bmonty> ajmitch: are you going to link your authtool branch in to the directory team?
<bmonty> oops, wrong channel, sorry
<sfllaw> http://xkcd.com/c178.html
<Burgundavia> sfllaw: rofl
<fabbione> morning
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> Good morning
<Burgundavia> morning pitt
<Burgundavia> pitti, rather
<pitti> hi Burgundavia 
* tfheen idly wonders which font people are using in gnome-terminal that doesn't look too bad.  It looks horrible here, unless I want it to be big.
<mdz> tfheen: wrong hinting?
<tfheen> mdz: very possible.  Vera Sans Mono has bold numbers "cut off" at the end
<tfheen> http://err.no/tmp/blah.png has a screenshot with 8point DejaVu Sans Mono
<neuralis> tfheen: do you prefer g-t to the alternatives, or are you just using it since it's there?
<tfheen> neuralis: currently, I'm just testing it again after a long absence.  I tend to use pterm, but that one doesn't support compose sequences and clickable links.
<neuralis> fair; pterm here as well, and the fonts work quite nicely.
<tfheen> not having compose annoys me a bit, though
<Hobbsee> hey not-Mithrandir, aka tfheen 
<lifeless> do you mean the compose key stuff ?
<tfheen> lifeless: yes.
<lifeless> I recall that working in xterm
<tfheen> Good morning, Hobbsee 
<lifeless> 
<sivang> morning
<lifeless> yup, it works
<Hobbsee> :)
<tfheen> there were other annoying things with xterm, iirc. :-)
<lifeless> ah well, each to their own punishment
<tfheen> g-t just had the "is really slow" problem, but that's rumored to have been fixed or at least become less annoying
<jdub> http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ *COUGH*
<pitti> hey jdub, how's it going?
<jdub> morning pitti 
<jdub> groovy!
<jdub> you?
<pitti> feisty!
<fabbione> jdub: PANTS OFF DUDE!
<Hobbsee> jdub: it seems you have a terrible cough there :P
<jdub> comes out sounding like a url
<mpt> StevenK, https://launchpad.net/people/mpt/+branch/about-window/dev
<StevenK> Ah!
<StevenK> Except I can't reach launchpad.net at the moment.
<Burgundavia> mpt: apparently a bunch of us having issues contacting the datacentre
<Spads> It appears to be a routing problem upstream.
<mpt> ok, emigrate, then bzr pull
<lifeless> lol
<StevenK> mpt: Hah. :-)
* robitaille should touch some wood since I haven't seen any routing problems yet from home...
<Burgundavia> robitaille: you are not having issues?
<Burgundavia> telus or shaw?
<sivang> me as well
<robitaille> Burgundavia:  telus.  I can connect LP
<Burgundavia> hmm, shaw no worky for me
<Burgundavia> ironic, given we both live in the same city
<sivang> works from here as well
<Burgundavia> sivang: you don't live in the same city as me :)
<sivang> Burgundavia: sucks to be me ;) 
* sivang -> out
<Burgundavia> sivang: *grin*
<robitaille> Burgundavia: to get to LP, Telus seems to go to Seattle then London.  I would assume Shaw routes you to Calgary first
<Burgundavia> robitaille: no, I am going to same way
<Burgundavia> dying at level3 in london
<robitaille> but I seem to lose 27% of the packets on the way
<test_> I have created a ubuntu setup, this setup is going to be used on more then 1000 ubuntu desktop pc's. However. I want to create a recover-image cd. The idea behind this is, that if the user put's in the cd, restarts the computer and the computers starts a recovery process. The end result has to be, the user should have a installed ubuntupc just like deliverd.
<Treenaks> test_: look at partimage
<test_> partimage doesn't work well with costum installed debs that are not installed through a repository.
<Treenaks> test_: create a working system, image it with partimage...
<Treenaks> test_: then you can restore the image as often as you like..
<mcsmurf> iwj: ping
<StevenK> mpt: How attached are you to the code layout? :-)
<mpt> StevenK, not at all :-)
<mpt> Why?
* StevenK has made some changes, and gotten it mostly working.
<StevenK> mpt: If you want a screenshot, that can be arranged.
<mpt> sure
<mpt> or just push your own branch
* mcsmurf wonders if mpt is the former Mozilla mpt ;-)
<mcsmurf> I guess Matthew Paul Thomas is a quite common name though...
<mpt> Alas, I've been found out
* mpt flees
<mcsmurf> hah ;)
<mpt> Whenever I turn up on irc.mozilla.org some person I've never heard of says "You're not *the* mpt, are you?"
<mcsmurf> well :)
<Lathiat> heh
<StevenK> Muaha
<StevenK> Hum.
<mpt> Was my "just" misplaced?
<mpt> If you're having trouble reaching Launchpad you likely won't be able to push either
<StevenK> mpt: Ah, that has resolved itself.
<StevenK> Push is in progress, according to the no output I'm getting from bzr.
<mpt> heh
<mpt> I reported that bug earlier
<StevenK> Ahh, there we go, output.
<StevenK> phase 0/4, apparently.
<mpt> bug 60171
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 60171 in bzr "bzr push appears to do nothing for several minutes" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/60171
<StevenK> Yeah, that'd be the one. :-)
<pygi> :P
<StevenK> And after all that:
<StevenK> 0 revision(s) pushed.
<StevenK> Thanks, bzr.
<mpt> Did you commit first?
<StevenK> Hush.
<Lathiat> haha
* StevenK hasn't actually used bzr before.
<pitti> StevenK: was this the initial push?
<pitti> StevenK: if so, it always claims to have pushed 0 revisions
<StevenK> pitti: Nope, but mpt is right.
* StevenK gets out and pushes bzr.
<StevenK> Faster!
<mpt> bzr push --uphill
<StevenK> mpt: That's the one. :-)
<StevenK> mpt: Pushed.
<StevenK> mpt: ~stevenk/about-window/dev
<mpt> Cool, it shows up on Launchpad straight away
<mpt> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~stevenk/about-window/dev/
<StevenK> ... Interesting.
<dholbach> what happens if you check if out over sftp?
<StevenK> Oh yeah, it was pushed over sftp://
<StevenK> Apparently, http:// takes a little while to catch up.
<dholbach> it usually takes some time to show up over http
<dholbach> yeah
* StevenK high fives dholbach
<mpt> This is where I suffer from bug 43564
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 43564 in launchpad-bazaar "hosted branches should display sftp information" [High,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/43564
<mpt> Oh, that bug's assigned to me, I should fix it
<mpt> grumph
* dholbach hugs StevenK
<StevenK> Muahaha
<StevenK> mpt: I have a plan to refactor the code, but the first step was to get it working.
* StevenK has also added an evil TODO item.
<mpt> bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~stevenk/about-window/dev/
<StevenK> I have this idea that a screenshot would have been far simpler.
<mpt> oh, perhaps
<mpt> though I would have needed to merge from you eventually anyway
<mpt> if I'm ever to learn how to package software
<StevenK> Ah.
<StevenK> I should throw some Debian bits around it and create a package.
<StevenK> Getting it working is more fun, though.
<mpt> of course
<dholbach> it's "not a branch" for me too. :-/
<StevenK> Did I push it wrong, I wonder?
<StevenK> I am comforted by the fact that it looks like mpt's in launchpad.
<StevenK> mpt: In the mean time, http://wedontsleep.org/~steven/about.png
<thom> "Ubuntu is the overall system" is hella awkward phrasing
<mpt> yay for decrufted version numbers
<mpt> I thought I deleted that text
<mpt> Oh, I didn't commit that change
<StevenK> Heh
<mcsmurf> haha
<StevenK> mpt: I had a block of a text taken the default start page, which wasn't ideal either.
<mpt> yah, I just nuked it. Minimalism is the new black.
<mpt> What happened with the processor speed?
<StevenK> Ahhh, about that. :-)
<StevenK> You only pull it from cpufreq, and that machine is no laptop.
<mpt> Yeah, I was wandering around at UBZ asking various people how to get the information
<StevenK> The problem is we can't rely on the speed being in the model name.
<mpt> and people would tell me and then say "oh, but you need to be root for that"
<StevenK> "gksu aboutubuntu" would suck.
<mpt> indeed.
* StevenK idly wonders if this spec should be discussed at UDS-MV.
<mpt> "Sorry son, I'm not telling you the horsepower until you've got your license"
<mpt> It was approved at UDU :-P
<Mez> is there something wrong with security.ubuntu.com people are reporting MD5Sum errors (http://rafb.net/paste/results/NTnRJx38.html)
<mpt> StevenK, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AboutUbuntu
<StevenK> Yeah, I've seen that.
<fabbione> Mez: yes, they are working on it
<Mez> fabbione: cheers (I only ask as it's working for me!)
<fabbione> Mez: hold on
<fabbione> Mez: are these guys behind a transparent proxy of somekind?
* Mez checks
<Mez> fabbione, yes, why ?>
<Mez> <@davee> Mez: Yes, I think so, but that's never been a problem with other Ubuntu or Debian repositories before
<fabbione> Mez: tell them to fix the proxy. kthxbye
<fabbione> security works fine from here
<jono> do we have any kind of rules or expectations for people remastering CD images for a specific locale?
<mpt> Anyone know where to report bugs about Synaptic? Launchpad says "not here" and its Web site doesn't mention bugs at all
<mpt> and it seems not to be in bugzilla.gnome.org either
<StevenK> It looks like a native Debian package.
<StevenK> Report it directly to debbugs?
<mpt> Eh.
<Mez> mpt: theres a truckload of bugs @ https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/synaptic/+bugs
<mpt> Yah, I was looking for something a little further upstream
<mpt> but I'm not desperate enough to figure out how to use debbugs
<Mez> mpt: I realised that after I hit enter
<mpt> so I'll report it in Ubuntu
<giskard> hello
<thom> mpt: mailto: submit@bugs.debian.org... and in the body Package: synaptic \n  some text.
<Mez> mpt: mvo's the author though - so.... *shrugs*
<iwj> mcsmurf: Please say what you want, rather than just doing a content-free ping!
<cjwatson> jdong: apt-mark is the tool you want
<mcsmurf> iwj: a pong with round-trip time of course!
<test_> why is there no /etc/locale.gen in edgy?
<mcsmurf> iwj: why is the build id of 20060601 hardcoded in Firefox?
<mcsmurf> iwj: if it is actually...
<cjwatson> iwj: judging from other scrollback, he's asking about the build id in firefox being apparently dated 2006-06-01
<cjwatson> oh, too late :-)
<cjwatson> test_: superseded by /var/lib/locales/supported.d/; if you just want to generate a new locale, use e.g. 'locale-gen pl_PL.UTF-8'
<cjwatson> sudo locale-gen ... rather
<mpt> iwj, fixing bug 69444 would make life a lot easier for me in Launchpad hacking :-)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 69444 in firefox "Ubuntu's Firefox DOM Inspector is incompatible with Ubuntu's Firefox" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/69444
<iwj> mcsmurf: That's an encoding of the distro version number.  Websites don't need to know whether the user has run an update recently.
<cjwatson>         <em:minVersion>2.0</em:minVersion>
<cjwatson>         <em:maxVersion>2.0</em:maxVersion>
* cjwatson wonders if the +dfsg has confused it ...
<mcsmurf> iwj: this is a quite weird use of the build id...
<cjwatson> hope not
<cjwatson> iwj: 20060610 would have been a much less confusing encoding
<cjwatson> or 20061001, come to that
<cjwatson> given the meaning of the "6"
<mcsmurf> do you know which file was patched for doing this?
<mcsmurf> (in http://librarian.launchpad.net/4927395/firefox_2.0%2B0dfsg-0ubuntu3.diff.gz)
<iwj> mpt: I'll see what I can do about 69444.  Debian have done something different with the dom inspector which is probably part of why it's broken.
<iwj> cjwatson: That would result in a build id in the future.
<iwj> So I arranged for it to subtract 6 months (IIRC).
<mcsmurf> iwj: we already do have october ;)
<iwj> mcsmurf: Yes, but edgy existed before october.
<cjwatson> iwj: is that so bad? :-)
<iwj> mcsmurf: Is the fact that you can't tell exactly which version it is just by looking at the browser string a problem for you somehow ?
<cjwatson> (build in the future)
<iwj> cjwatson: I don't know but since people seem to use this string for all sorts of stupid purposes I thought it might break some webshite's stupid javascript.
<mcsmurf> iwj: no, I was just wondering since noone hardcoded build ids before
<cjwatson> It would reinforce that it's notional.
<mcsmurf> (and I'm active in the Mozilla community)
<mpt> thanks iwj
<mcsmurf> and mozilla developers tend to look at the build id, too ;-)
<iwj> mpt: I'm not planning to do a firefox before mtv, though; I hope that's not a problem ...
<mcsmurf> (there was some discussion yesterday if the svg support in Ubutu Firefox can be considered to be supported)
* mpt remembers the halcyon days when the build ID was in the title bar of every window
<mcsmurf> since system cairo or so is used
<mpt> iwj, it's not awful, it just means using two laptops
<mcsmurf> mpt: my build here still has that... ;)
<mcsmurf> (SeaMonkey unofficial build)
<iwj> mpt: You could use a chroot.
<mpt> I think I don't have enough HD for that
<iwj> Ouch, that must be an old laptop.
<mpt> oh, 12 GB now, that should be enough
<mpt> Last time I looked I had 1.6 GB or something ridiculous
<Manny> hi
<Manny> how can I find whether anybody is working on particular packages (MuleHashDB in my case)?
<realist> I'd like to know that also Manny...
<realist> Or more specifically, what packages no-one is maintaining
<dholbach> Manny: is that a software that is already packaged?
<StevenK> steven@liquified:~/ubuntu/about% bzr di | diffstat | grep changed 1 file changed, 85 insertions(+), 74 deletions(-)                             
<StevenK> Yummy.
<Mez> doko, ping
<Manny> dholbach: I don't think so. It has a setup.py script. http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/MuleHashDB/0.1.1
* dholbach looks at it
<Manny> dholbach: of course I know that your resources are limited, but I'm not a packaging expert and ubuntu is quite python-friendly, it has virtually all packages
<dholbach> Manny: you could add it to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UniverseCandidates or I can add it there for you
<Manny> also note that aMule makes use of it
<dholbach> Manny: it's also better if somebody using it maintains it ;-)
<Manny> heh ;)
<Manny> well I'd like to write some ed2k scripts, because I need it and because it makes a good python exercise
<doko> Mez: ?
<Mez> doko, regarding libstdc++5 in kubuntu-desktop - what packages is that for ?
<pitti> Mez: it's mainly used for commerical packages which still need the old ABI
<Mez> pitti, I was wondering if it was for any specific package
<dholbach> Manny: added it for you
<Mez> I know rar uses it (and I'm updating that now)
<Manny> thanks! :)
<aualin> HOW THE HELL CAN YOU MANAGE BREAKING THE PRISM DRIVERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????
<aualin> you REALLY KNOW HOW TO BREAK THINGS!
<bhale> sigh, not you again
<highvoltage> /kick aualin 
<bhale> please calm down or leave
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<mcsmurf> thumbs up
* Hobbsee wonders whether to hit the button
<StevenK> Wait. Maybe +o is enough of a threat.
<aualin> you guys really know howto be ignoring!
<aualin> bye
<aualin> you idiots
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<Hobbsee> bhale: can we just ban everyone from #beryl-dev?  :P
<HrdwrBoB> I see the problem, they were using KDE
<bhale> Hobbsee: oh, please
<Hobbsee> HrdwrBoB: kde wont affect the prism drivers, dummy :P
<Hobbsee> HrdwrBoB: (i hope!)
<aualin> go and burn up
<StevenK> I note no one is forcing him to use Ubuntu.
<HrdwrBoB> Hobbsee: I was taking a wholistic view, perhaps of the person rather than the actual problem
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o tseng]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+b *!*@*h-89-233-211-46.wholesale.port80.se]  by tseng
<tseng> thats right isnt it
<StevenK> Yes.
<tseng> almost.
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o tseng]  by tseng
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<dholbach> Mez: 3rd party apps use it
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+dinrg Mikael]  by Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> uh....
<Hobbsee> drat
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-dinrg Mikael]  by Hobbsee
<Mez> lol
* tfheen wonders what Hobbsee is up to. :-P
<bhale> morn tfheen 
<tfheen> morning, bhale 
<Hobbsee> tfheen: a +d ban, but i think i got the syntax wrong
<Mez> Hobbsee is pwning the channel ;) run for your lives
<Hobbsee> haha
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+dinrg 'Mikael]  by Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> hmmm.  that really doenst seem to work as intended.
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-dinrg 'Mikael]  by Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> i'm not sure why it drops all the other modes
<Mez> because it set them ?
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o fabbione]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+n]  by fabbione
<fabbione> so what do you need to do?
<Mez> fabbione, darn, and I was going to get my botnet to spam the channel 
<Hobbsee> oh, i know why
<bhale> *yawn*
<thom> oh, grow up
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+d Mikael*Lindberg]  by Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> ah :)
<Hobbsee> *that* got it :)
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o fabbione]  by fabbione
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<Hobbsee> and it's even showing it correctly.  yay
<elkbuntu> ok.. so who was the actual problem here? the other guy or hobbsee?
<Hobbsee> elk
<StevenK> Both? :-P
<bhale> the other guy has done this at least three times
<Hobbsee> elkbuntu: of course i'm the problem.  i'm the one who has ops in here.  duh :P
<Mez> elkbuntu, Hobbsee's always a problem :P
<elkbuntu> Hobbsee, right you are, dear.
<siretart> depending on your POV, she might also be the final answer ;)
<Hobbsee> haha
<elkbuntu> siretart, final as in 'finally got the right mode'?
<ajmitch> the same annoying guy in here?
<Hobbsee> hahahaahahaha!
<siretart> elkbuntu: as in 'the final answer for all problems' ;)
<Hobbsee> I WIN!!!!
<ajmitch> hey siretart, elkbuntu 
<Hobbsee> my ban keeps him out!
<Hobbsee> [22:37]  --> aualin has joined this channel (n=mikael@89.233.211.46).
<Hobbsee> but he couldnt get here :)
<kmon_> Is there any python ide specifically targeted at development for gnome desktop?
<siretart> huhu ajmitch 
<zyga> hello
<zyga> is there anyone around interested in SABDFL's recent blog post?
<bhale> zyga: no
<bhale> that sounds excessively painful
<jsgotangco> heh
<bhale> "many have tried..."
<Chipzz> kmon_: I think there's something like wingide, but that's payware though
<Chipzz> and it's aimed mostly at python development too
<thom> zyga: his diagnosis is more or less right, but i doubt he's going to get much traction. esp outside of the linuxes, since that adds a whole raft of additional problems
<kmon_> Chipzz: eah, I was looking for a "monodevelop for python" thing
<sladen> dholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MotuOrganisation 404
<fabbione> ftpmaster: please do NOT accept glibc-2.5. Leave it on hold
<dholbach> sladen: what do you want to tell me with that?
<sladen> dholbach: you posted a link on the bottom of Jono's blog linking to it
<dholbach> no?
<dholbach> https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/motu
<dholbach> oh and the spec links to it
<dholbach> yeah, nobody stepped up to write the spec yet
<ajmitch> more work for us :)
<Keybuk> fabbione: I've been deliberately not touching anything in feisty in someone says "GO!"
<fabbione> Keybuk: i know.. i just had to make sure nobody accepted it by mistake
<fabbione> Keybuk: it's pending Spads to upgrade ppc kernel on the buildd
* dholbach hugs jsgotangco
<fabbione> the package is good
<jsgotangco> dholbach: hey
<Keybuk> fabbione: does the new gcc not need to go in first anyway?
<fabbione> Keybuk: glibc first, then gcc and then glibc again
<Keybuk> really?  I didn't think gcc needed glibc
<fabbione> Keybuk: yes because there are several changes this time.. including an ABI change for sparc and ppc
<fabbione> so we need to do it in 2 steps
<fabbione> Keybuk: is the publisher set to auto now?
<fabbione> (at :03 right?)
<Keybuk> fabbione: publisher is on automatic, yes
<Keybuk> however uploads require manual approval
<fabbione> Keybuk: ok thanks
<marcin_ant> hi guys
<marcin_ant> I would like to develop some web application especially for ubuntu - can I talk abot it here or will you send me away ;) ?
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o thom]  by ChanServ
<Spads> Powerpc buildds are going down for system upgrade
<fabbione> Keybuk: please accept glibc
<aualin> has feisty repos got new packages?
<aualin> got some updates, (using feisty repos)
<fabbione> aualin: only some bits of the new toolchain
<aualin> ok
<fabbione> it's not WISE to use them
<fabbione> not yet
<Hobbsee> not for a long time
<aualin> like to use everything that is buggy :P
<aualin> (as long it is something like: no x:P thats not funny, if you understand what i mean)
<fdoving> mdz: does bug 69583 qualify for a update to dapper-updates too?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 69583 in kopete "SRU: kopete can't connect to ICQ. " [Low,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/69583
<aualin> Ubutgu=bot?
<Hobbsee> yes
<aualin> ok
<aualin> fun name:P
<Hobbsee> aualin: why are you here again? 
<aualin> calmed down
<Hobbsee> oh good
<aualin> oh, and have never used a proxy
<Keybuk> fabbione: ok
<fabbione> Keybuk: cheers
<Hobbsee> aualin: you're right.  the IP is the same
<Keybuk> aualin: if you like X to work, you probably shouldn't use feisty at this point
<aualin> :P
<Keybuk> there's all probability that it won't even boot
<aualin> hm..
<aualin> well i am not going to accept feisty x
<aualin> got many kernels
<aualin> oh
<aualin> and i got 2 dists
<aualin> sabayon and ubuntu
<zyga> re
<shackan> so what?
<thom> this is so far off topic it's stupid
<aualin> (sabayon is based on gentoo)
<aualin> (these off topic things happen often with me)
<aualin> but right now i am reading about 3d modelling
<gnomefreak> aualin: join #ubuntu-offtopic to chat in general
<aualin> thanks
<Spads> Soyuz powerpc buildds are back
<marcin_ant> anyone that could answer question about python webapp policy for ubuntu?
<aualin> not me...
<giskard_> who i should ask for an X+ati bug/problem?
<thom> rodarvus, most likely
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o thom]  by thom
<giskard_> thank you thom 
* giskard_ is trying to install ubuntu on a _not_so_old iMac
<giskard_> rodarvus: ping :;
<rodarvus> giskard, go ahead :)
<giskard_> rodarvus: i got i have an ati rage 128 pr/pro agp 4x tmds
<giskard_> i'm trying to use the ati driver but X doesn't start
<giskard_> i get this:
<giskard_> and of bloc range 0xefffffff < begin 0xf0000000
<giskard_> R128(0): mmap  mmio: Invalid Argument
<rodarvus> this error is quite cryptic
<giskard_> eheh :(
<sivang> re people
<rodarvus> you appear to be using the r128 driver, is that correct?
<rodarvus> (please check it on the Device section of /etc/X11/xorg.conf)
<^robertj> so what's the background on Mark's latest posting?
<rodarvus> anyhow, lets move to a privmsg window
<giskard_> rodarvus: yes
<rodarvus> not a topic for #ubuntu-devel :)
<giskard_> ehehe
<giskard_> ahh stupid freenode privmsg policy
<pepsiman> launchpad still shows hoary as "Supported".  It was EOL yesterday.  Who can fix this?
<cjwatson> pepsiman: yes, we know ...
<cjwatson> pepsiman: any launchpad admin, IIRC
<cjwatson> I'll check, but I don't think I can
<cjwatson> (we talked about it this morning; mdz was going to do it but had routing problems getting to launchpad)
<pepsiman> ok
<cjwatson> it's not that urgent
<^robertj> sivang: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/66
<sivang> ^robertj: thanks
<Mez> hmmm- dri isnt enabled by default when installing ati drivers
<Mez> is the ubuntu website meant to be showing french translations on an english page ?
<Mez> and now the same page with german
<Mez> weird
<sivang> does anybody know how to make ConfigParser save state using option : value form instead of option = value ?
<sivang> doko: ^
<sivang> the reference seems to lack documentation of this
<doko> sivang: no idea
<Whoopie> doko: HI, did you find the time to look into the python-httplib2 packaging issue?
<bddebian> Howdy
<azeem> Whoopie: what's wrong with it?
<Whoopie> azeem: under Edgy, python-support doesn't compile the python2.4 modules, only for python2.5.
<azeem> ah, right
<sivang> doko: ah nice, it is not needed. ConfigParser does the right thing (tm) anyways.
<cjwatson> sivang: the standard module has no way to do that. You'd have to reimplement write()
<cjwatson> obviously, if it's not needed, that's easier
<sivang> cjwatson: Yes, I feared that having data starting or containing '=' in them would break machine readiability, but it seems to graciously handle this.
<bddebian> What's with this cjwatson nick? :-)
<sivang> cjwatson: did you check the code or just recalled this off-hand ?
<cjwatson> bddebian: decided I preferred it
<cjwatson> sivang: checked
<cjwatson> (cjwatson's my username everywhere anyway, so ...)
<cjwatson> damnit, I wish there were a way to leave comments in glade files in such a way that the interface editors would preserve it. I've totally forgotten what I was going to use this bit of UI for ...
<sivang> cjwatson: can't you just leave xml comments <!-- ... ? 
<cjwatson> sivang: I bet glade-2 won't preserve them?
<sivang> cjwatson: right, I just checked, damn
<pygi> siretart: CLOSE SESSION command takes 25 seconds :(
<pygi> siretart: CLOSE SESSION command (5Bh 00 02h ..) bla, bla, bla :)
<sivang> cjwatson: seems it just treats UI meaningful stuff, we ought to open a bug about this.
<pygi> sivang: was -tao one of the things you needed for HUB?
<sivang> pygi: is it related to multi sessions recording in any way? ;)
<pygi> sivang: heh :P
<pygi> sivang: I need a lot of reading, a lot of testing, and a lot of writing prototype code to make multi session work
<pygi> sivang: I don't think I'm currently smart enough to implement multi session :P
<rc-1> why should the arcatectural design of a system precede the development for a formal specification
<freacky22527> hi!
<freacky22527> I've recently started a new project, a frontend for wine, which will be a clone of the windows Add/remove tool
<freacky22527> I made a "sample" version to test the libwine and everything work
<freacky22527> here is a screenshot
<freacky22527> http://freacky22527.free.fr/images/screenshot.png
<freacky22527> the program go to look into the wine (fake windows) registry and list the win32 installed apps
<freacky22527> But it's the first time I use gtk, so I'm looking for a "glade guru" to design the user interface, if possible
<freacky22527> is anyone interested?
<dholbach> freacky22527: try to write to ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com maybe
<freacky22527> ok thanks daniel :-)
<dholbach> de rien :-)
<_ion> You do have programmed it so that the view is separated from the controller, right?
<_ion> So someone could easily add a Qt UI for example.
<freacky22527> _ion: not at all for the moment, I just made this version to do some tests, but I will ;)
<madduck> cjwatson: thanks for Debian#395473 !
<cjwatson> np
<cjwatson> madduck: planning to wait until the current version hits testing before uploading
<_ion> It would be cool if ubugtu printed URLs for those, too. E.g. http://bugs.debian.org/395473
<madduck> cjwatson: "pending" is enough for me for now. molly-guard is still in the new queue anyway. :/
<_ion> Perhaps even scrape the title and print it.
<cjwatson> debian bug 395473
<Ubugtu> Debian bug 395473 in openssh-server "please add suggests for molly-guard" [Wishlist,Open]  http://bugs.debian.org/395473
<_ion> Hehe, ok. :-)
<cjwatson> ok, so it can sort of manage it, just needs a format tweak ...
<cjwatson> it should definitely be told how to scrape it from the URL form it produces
<cjwatson> Seveas: ^-- FYI
<jdub> what's molly-guard?
<cjwatson> jdub: the bug link above explains it
<jdub> google was surprisingly unuseful
<madduck> jdub: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/collab-maint/deb-maint/molly-guard/trunk/shutdown?op=file&rev=0&sc=0
<jdub> ha ha, cute
<cjwatson> I haven't quite got to the point of eschewing provided links in favour of google :-)
<madduck> jdub: 
<madduck> piper:~# halt                                                            #[366] 
<jdub> didn't think the bug link would explain what it was :)
<madduck> molly-guard: SSH session detected!
<madduck> Please type in hostname of the machine to halt: uh, no!
<madduck> Good thing I asked; I won't halt piper ...
<jdub> heh
<madduck> molly-guard, which was coined by Ben Hutchins, is such a perfect name for it. :)
<jdub> i look forward to molly-guard in fisty
<elmo> that has exactly the same problem as aliasing rm to rm -i
<jdub> elmo: the "ah, fuck it" effect?
<elmo> jdub: the "ah, shit this isn't a box with molly-guard installed" effect as the box shuts down
<jdub> heh
<elmo> but maybe that's what you meant
<madduck> elmo: yes, this is a problem and i ran into it a bunch of times.
<madduck> but only when testing
<madduck> i mean, you don't really type 'halt' to provoke molly-guard... :)
<madduck> but my goal is obviously to make it essential. haha!
<thom> madduck: hah, nice
<madduck> http://debian.madduck.net/repo/dists/sid/main/binary-all/admin/molly-guard_0.2.1-1_all.deb in case anyone wants to give it a whirl
<Seveas> cjwatson, ack
<Seveas> it's on my to-do list to extend the scraping
<keescook> looks like gcc SSP was lost in the feisty toolchain?
<keescook> err.. 
<keescook> nevermind
<keescook> my testcase sucked.  :)
<gottreu> bi-arch or multiple architectures with apt: what's the status on that?
<gottreu> or where should I go to ask that question?
<Burgwork> gottreu: afaik, no work being done
<Burgwork> gottreu: you can see the specs that are likely to be in the next version of Ubuntu on LP
<gottreu> LP being launchpad?
<Burgwork> yes
<gottreu> where exactly on this launchpad?
<Burgwork> https://features.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-mtv
<Burgwork> that is your link
<bhale> Burgwork: specs in LP for toolchain changes are actually 2 release ahead
<bhale> feisty+1
<Burgwork> those are spec beings talked about at the next development summit
<Burgwork> bhale: ah
<bhale> you don't spec toolchain changes for feisty as it is opening
<bhale> need to be ahead
<zyga> hey guys, I'm looking at rather annoying openoffice bug in edgy malone 67618
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 67618 in openoffice.org "OpenOffice doesn't hint fonts in Edgy" [Undecided,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/67618
<zyga> it seems that debian has a patch to freetype that gets rid of this
<ajmitch> morning
<zul> afternoon
<Robot101> hm
<Robot101> is it a known issue that both the dbus and the dbus-1-utils packages provide scripts to start dbus-daemon in your session?
<Robot101> $ ls /etc/X11/Xsession.d/75dbus*
<Robot101> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/75dbus-1-utils_dbus-launch
<Robot101> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/75dbus_dbus-launch
<Robot101> and also that xinit and x11-common, both of which I can't remove without braining half of my system, seem to double up all of the other Xsession.d scripts too?
<Robot101> $ ls /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90x*
<Robot101> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90x11-common_ssh-agent
<Robot101> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90xorg-common_ssh-agent
<Robot101> $ pgrep -u robot101 dbus-daemon
<Robot101> 5634
<Robot101> 5638
<Robot101> $ pgrep -u robot101 ssh-agent
<Robot101> 5629
<Robot101> 5630
<Robot101> :-/
<Chipzz> Robot101: yeah I think it's a known issue
<Riddell> dholbach: about?
<Riddell> dholbach: able to join us in #ubuntu-meeting for a sec?
<keescook> ^^ that was pitti testing the old nvidia driver.  :)
<pitti> hi Seveas 
<Seveas> hi
<iXce> hi
<sfllaw> Remember how we found bug 69158 before release?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 69158 in ndiswrapper "ndiswrapper-utils downgraded from dapper" [Critical,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/69158
<sfllaw> Someone should probably make the simple fix of making ndiswrapper-utils do the right thing.
<mdz> sfllaw: Kamion looked into it and found it hairy enough that he wasn't comfortable doing that just yet; please mail him and discuss it further
<sfllaw> mdz: Really?  OK, will discuss with him.
<sfllaw> mdz: We should at least have a working one for Feisty.
<mdz> sfllaw: yes, see comments in bug 59983 (of which I believe 69158 is a duplicate)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 59983 in ndiswrapper "ndiswrapper in edgy broken" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/59983
<^robertj> what's the correct package to file sync requests against?
<crimsun> whichever source package needs to be synced
<pitti> ^robertj: the package you want to have synced
<^robertj> pitti: assuming its err not there?
<pitti> ^robertj: ah, a new one? well, just 'Ubuntu' then
<slomo> keescook: i already fixed the mpeg2dec crasher...
<slomo> keescook: FYI mpeg2dec's output buffers start address has to be 16byte aligned... for whatever reason ;) thanks for looking into it anyway :)
<keescook> slomo: ah-ha!  great.  I didn't get far.  :)
<keescook> slomo: do you have a patch handy?
<slomo> keescook: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=75796&action=view
<slomo> keescook: attached to pitti's bugreport
<jud> hi....hey  booting in recovery mode with edgy results with a root terminal???? isnt that a problem????
<_ion> Nope.
<pitti> jud: why?
<pitti> jud: that's exactly what recovery mode is supposed to do :)
<jud> anyone can restart my computer!!
<jud> booting
<_ion> You don't have locks?
<pitti> jud: anyone having physical access, yes
<jud> yes
<jud> office??
<pitti> jdub: if you have to defend against untrusted people with physical access, the only solution is to encrypt your hard disk
<_ion> It's the workplace's security problem if anyone can just walk into your office. Her being able to reboot your computer is the smallest problem.
<sfllaw> keescook: Did your vino upload make it into edgy-proposed?
<jud> anyway just wonder!!  bye
<keescook> sfllaw: I don't think so.  I'm unclear on who needs to push it.
<sfllaw> Kamion, I think.
<sfllaw> Or mdz.
<ajmitch> ^robertj: /win 94
<ajmitch> oops
<ajmitch> :)
<keescook> ajmitch: you have *94* windows?  nice.
<ajmitch> ^robertj: I don't think you'll need to file sync requests for new packages, they should be synced automatically
<ajmitch> keescook: yeah, mostly ubuntu or debian
<ajmitch> & /query windows :)
<sfllaw> keescook: Can you get me a URL to the appropriate .deb?
<sfllaw> The same one you uploaded to upload.ubuntu.com?
<keescook> sfllaw: you mean the changes file?  one sec
<sfllaw> keescook: No, not the .dsc.
<sfllaw> The .deb.
<sfllaw> The built one.
<sfllaw> I'm trying to make sure your fix works.
<keescook> Isn't that LP's job?
<mdz> keescook,sfllaw: it's the archive admin team who process them, as documented in StableReleaseUpdates
<keescook> mdz: I sub'd the archive team to the bug.  should I do anything additional?
<sfllaw> keescook: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<mdz> keescook: you don't need to do that; they will look at the queue, see your upload, read the changelog, check the bug to verify, and then accept the upload
<mdz> they do this especially on tuesdays and fridays, but occasionally other times as well
<sfllaw> mdz: To clarify the SRU policy.
<sfllaw> It's 7 days after the archive admin accepts it, right?
<keescook> mdz: ah-ha, okay.  SRU wiki didn't specify when those things would happen.  it was uploaded yesterday
<mdz> sfllaw: it's accepted into -proposed immediately upon verifying that the SRU is approved
<mdz> the 7 day delay is from -proposed to -updates
<mdz> is that not clear from the document?
<bluefoxicy> Anyone have word on why there is no longer a disk management app obviously visible in Edgy?
<sfllaw> No, it's not.  It says...
<sfllaw> "After successful testing and a minimum aging period of 7 days"
<bluefoxicy> Was that pulled out of GNOME or just Ubuntu
<sfllaw> So it's unclear when 7 days is relative from.
<mdz> I'll clarify
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<keescook> sounds like we need a step 3.5) Wait for archive team to publish the upload. (Usually happens on Tues and Fridays)
<mdz> it would be a bit silly to have it wait 7 days in the queue
<sfllaw> and then have it immediately pushed to -updates.
<sfllaw> That would be terrible.
<mdz> keescook: I changed it to "The upload will be reviewed by the archive administrators during regularly scheduled processing"
* keescook nods
<keescook> sfllaw: okay, so, apologies, I pinged you too early.  :)
<mdz> I don't want to duplicate the schedule in multiple places, lest it get out of sync
<mdz> I've also clarified the aging period to apply explicitly to -proposed
<doko> mdz: could you clarify as well 1) Propose *by email*, not i.e. by a bug report
<mdz> doko: why?  either method works for me
<doko> mdz: ? last Friday you explicitely asked for email (the bug reports were already filed)
<mdz> doko: where?  perhaps I misunderstood your question
<mdz> it doesn't matter to me so far as all of the information is present
<mdz> I'm not sure whether Colin has a preference
<keescook> mdz: I guess the question is how to initially get your attention.  should we email you, subscribe you to the bug, etc.  That where I wasn't sure.
<keescook> s/That/That was/
<keescook> what information is needed for the SRU is quite clear.  It's just not clear how to start the notification process.
<doko> mdz: 68396 and 68380, emails sent on Monday
<mdz> keescook: I've added a bit to the doc about how to do it with bugs
<keescook> mdz: perfect!  reads clearly now, thanks.  :)
<slomo> keescook: well, not yet 100% correct, i'll fix it ;)
<keescook> slomo: see if you can add checks or docs updates in upstream libmpeg2.  I bet others will run into this too.
<rpedro> can tell me someone who is resposible for the ubuntu daily iso builds?
<rpedro> I have a problem with the latest daily jigdo template for i386
<rpedro> possibly the it's the same as edgy final
<LaserJock> that could be
<tfheen> rpedro: they haven't started yet.
<jdub> bhale: ping
<bhale> hello jdub 
<jdub> bhale: what are the chances of getting a bugfix update for beagle?
<bhale> jdub: not my call, but it seems slim to none
<jdub> joe tells me a "suck 100% cpu on certain file types" bug was fixed in 0.2.10
<bhale> yeah
<bhale> but its a new upstream
<bhale> needs a full report to mdz for a final decision
<jdub> well, could just pick up specific fixes
<jdub> bhale: also 0.2.12 sounds awesome, but that's not a wildly brilliant reason for upgrading
<bhale> 40% less memory would be for me
<bhale> but im not the guy in charge
<jdub> you would totally be saying that in battle dude
<bhale> what battle?
<jdub> 40% less enemy would be fine for me *CHA-SHICK!*
<jdub> but i'm not the guy in charge
<bhale> *POW*
<bhale> I am now.
#ubuntu-devel 2006-11-02
<keescook> jdub: happen to know if beagle restores access times when it crawls?
<bhale> restores?
<jdub> keescook: i don't
<bhale> why bother
<bhale> i dont know for sure but i highly doubt it
<keescook> bhale: because I think it just wrecked all my mbox files' atimes.  :)
<bhale> ok :)
* jdub has joe on tap, one moment
<bhale> ahaha
<johanbr> So *that's* what "cup of joe" means.
<bhale> jdub: on tap like a Tower?
<keescook> something did, and beagle is only recent change I can remember...
<jdub> on tap like ubuntu
<jdub> http://www.ucc.asn.au/services/ubuntu.ucc
<bhale> this includes music
<bhale> about the slickest hack ever
<jdub> keescook: yes, it appears likely that beagle doesn't specifically handle that problem with mboxes
<keescook> jdub: okay, good to know.  (... "dpkg -P beagle")
<TheMuso> c
<tonyyarusso> BenC: Hey, do you have any idea what changes between Breezy and Dapper/Edgy may have caused bug #42718?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 42718 in linux-source-2.6.17 "Sound capture on Thinkpad T20, T21, T22 not working" [Medium,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/42718
<infinity> tonyyarusso: You might want to ask crimsun, he's our sound guru.
<BenC> tonyyarusso: nothing in particular, except the upgrade of alsa :)
<tonyyarusso> BenC: Some of the comments on it say it happens with alsa and oss, which makes it even more odd.
<tonyyarusso> Is crimsun around atm?
<tonyyarusso> Is there anything I can do to help get this bug fixed quickly other than pinging crimsun if I don't have the skills to actually work on it myself?
<fabbione> morning
<Amaranth> morning
<Hobbsee> morning pitti!
<pitti> Good mornign everyone!
* pitti hugs Hobbsee 
* Hobbsee hugs pitti 
<Mez> mdz: anything else you need regarding that katapult SRU ?
<Mez> infinity, did you get my emails ?
<dholbach> good morning
<_ion> Good night.
<dholbach> night _ion :-)
<pygi> pitti: you saw the -tao thingy I was talking about to siretar*t
<pygi>  ?
<grndslm> you guys take suggestions, right?
<grndslm> all the devs are asleep!?!?
<pygi> grndslm: no :P
<Hobbsee> grndslm: no.  your questoin is very open-ended though
<grndslm> heh....would it be possible to just right click on one gnome-panel and un/lock all the applets, etc...instead of having to right-click each individual item??
<Hobbsee> as in, no they're not asleep
<Hobbsee> i'd imagine that's a gnome setting?  dholbach?
<infinity> grndslm: I'd imagine you'd have more success filing a wishlist bug.
<dholbach> grndslm: yes, what infinity said - although I think there was a bug along those lines already.
<infinity> dholbach: Pfft, what do you know about GNOME? :)
<dholbach> right
* dholbach goes back to play with gnustep
<infinity> Especially GNOME bugs in Ubuntu.  Seriously.  Delusions of grandeur.
<infinity> Also, 3 more days!  Which one of us owes the other more drinks?  Has it evened out by now?
<ajmitch> evening infinity 
<grndslm> it's just crazy that after as many releases as gnome has had, nobody's fixed that
* infinity expects he owes a few doze to each of his coworkers at this point.
<infinity> grndslm: It's not so much "no one fixed it" as "n one implemented it"... It's not a bug, just a feature you may want.  T obe fair, it's a feature I never even thought about until 5 minutes ago.
<infinity> s/doze/dozen/
<dholbach> infinity: even if you drank as much as you can, you'd walk home with barrels and bottles of booze :-)
* dholbach hugs infinity
<infinity> ajmitch: Yo.
<infinity> dholbach: I dunno.  Every time you fix vte/gnome-terminal, you get a gold star from me.
<ajmitch> infinity: a few of us are meeting in SFO & catching the train down, might be cheaper than the shuttle
<grndslm> well...that's why i'd rather tell the ubuntu-devs because they seem to have better organized priorities than the debian/gnome guys
<infinity> dholbach: Then again, perhaps you're breaking it intentionally so you can later fix it and get gold stars.  Hrm.
<infinity> ajmitch: Are we on the same flight?
<ajmitch> yeah, NZ8 to SFO
<dholbach> infinity: right, I specifically patched out some features
<infinity> Right.
<infinity> ajmitch: Well, I live carry-on only so I can avoid baggage carousels.  If you do the same, let's hook up at the gate.  If not, I'll be long gone before you see the light of day. :)
<infinity> dholbach: I knew it.
<ajmitch> I'll probably be held up waiting for bags, and customs :)
<jdub> grndslm: that means in some cases that you have to compete with those priorities instead of sorting things out upstream :)
<Hobbsee> jdub: fix it, kthanksbye!
<Hobbsee> jdub: tell pia i said hi, and that i really will get back to her soon :P
<jdub> Hobbsee: fo'sho!
<jdub> Hobbsee: only, we don't pass messages.
<Hobbsee> ah
<Hobbsee> heh
<jdub> ;-)
<dholbach> chip looks so cool: http://flickr.com/photos/chipx86/285519943/ :-)
<grndslm> jdub, so you're tellin' me i should take it to the gnome devs then, eh?
<infinity> dholbach: -EPARSE
<infinity> dholbach: There are no "cool" people in free software.
<dholbach> hehe
<Treenaks> infinity: You're in the wrong free software then :P
<infinity> Oh, but I guess being dressed as a LEGO minifig does come close...
<Treenaks> or a different one, at least
<grndslm> mark shuttleworth is damn cool
<infinity> grndslm: He's not online right now -- sucking up won't do you any good. :)
<infinity> So, who wants feisty to open today?
<infinity> Let's see a show of hands.
<pitti> ME!!!
<ajmitch> sure, I want breakage
<infinity> I think we're almost there.
<ajmitch> well I just want to get stuff uploaded :)
<pitti> $ ls uploads/feisty/*.changes|wc -l
<pitti> 15
<infinity> pitti: Slacker.
<ajmitch> heh
<dholbach> mvo: Alter!
<Hobbsee> infinity: ME!!!!!!!
<ajmitch> pitti: doing better than me!
<mvo> dholbach: ALTER
<sivang> infinity: ME!! nad I'm willing to through another bottle of olive oil at it :)
<pitti> infinity: I love you, too
<infinity> pitti: How many sync requests have you submitted along with those/ :)
<pitti> infinity: not that much, maybe 10
<infinity> Kay, so that brings your count to 25.  You win.
* pitti dances joyfully
<infinity> Though some MOTU folk have been going insane with sync requests.
<pitti> I decided to spend the rest of the week on security updates and upstream'ish work
<infinity> Sounds fair to me.
<pitti> but if we can upload soon, so much the better :)
<pitti> new craaack!
<infinity> Should be able to.
* pitti hugs in
* pitti hugs infinity 
<pygi> pitti: work on libburn ;)
<infinity> hppa bootstrap will take  abit longer, but we're not waiting on that, obviously.
<Hobbsee> ooh!  new crack!!!!  yay :D
<infinity> But, once this gcc build is done, we get to do another glibc build (fun!), then rebuild a mess of libraries to hide an ABI change (*cough*), then we're open for business.
<sivang> infinity: why "hide" ? :)
<infinity> So... We're close.. Ish.
<pitti> infinity: will gcc 4.1 or 4.2 be the default for feisty?
<infinity> 4.1
<infinity> 4.2's release schedule doesn't love us.
<pitti> ok, so we shouldn't see many FTBFS due to compiler issues at least
<infinity> Any new FTBFSs will be due to kernel header changes.
<infinity> Nothing from the compiler, though.
* pitti wonders how well the new FTBFS emails work out
<infinity> And glibc 2.4->2.5 looks pretty happily backward-compat.
<pitti> infinity: 2.5 is running here for about three days without problems
* infinity nods
<pitti> the first upload broke locales, but that got fixed
<infinity> "first upload"  We've only had one. :)
<fabbione> there will be some other breakages
<infinity> (You've been running test packages, though, I assume)
<fabbione> infinity: my unofficial one to people
<fabbione> yeah
<pitti> infinity: oh, I meant fabbione's packages on people
<sivang> infinity: what's the thing with the ABI change hideout? :)
<fabbione> infinity: did you check your mailbox with the sparc rebuild?
<fabbione> infinity: some of them are not really headers related
<fabbione> infinity: others is something i already mailed -devel for reference
<jdub> infinity: yay fisty
<pitti> heh, Ubuntu 6.10 - the fistful fighter
<pitti> 7.04 even
<pitti> hey jdub!
<fabbione> sivang: it's only for some math operation on ppc and sparc
<fabbione> sivang: like long long but very very long doubles
<infinity> I recommend most people stick with dipper, and avoid fisty.
<sivang> fabbione: ohh, I see
<infinity> ldbl128, even.
<infinity> Not the sort of thing most people care about.
* sivang was just curious as to what is the problem and the workaround, for educational purposes.
<infinity> fabbione: Yeah, I've browser the mbox, it's pretty manageable.
<fabbione> yes it is
<infinity> sivang: There is no workaround apart from "we're rebuilding crap"
<fabbione> all the IFA_ stuff is very easy
<fabbione> the others.. dunno.. i didn't really look at them in details
<sivang> infinity: okay, thanks for the info
<grndslm> ok...last request and then I'm outta here....since ubuntu is primarily a desktop, don't you guys think that desktop users would appreciate being able to throw their mouse into the top-right corner and scroll up/down to adjust volume....i know i love it, and i'm sure most users would [grow to]  love having it there by default
<sivang> grndslm: ubuntu is not primarily desktop, though, http://www.ubuntu.com/server .
<grndslm> are you kidding?
* pygi giggles
<grndslm> if you had to take a poll...you think there'd be more people using ubuntu as a server?
<seb128> grndslm: people like to "throw their mouse into the top-right corner" and log out, lock their session, change user,e tc
<grndslm> how many times to desktop users log out as opposed to adjust their volume, tho???
<pygi> grndslm: more :P
<seb128> grndslm: how many user have volume keys on their keyboard?
<malcc> I log out once a day and change my volume only when I travel
<infinity> I haven't used the volume applet once in the last 6 months.
<grndslm> well, just cuz i can alt-tab to different windows, doesn't mean i can't select them with a mouse
<grndslm> well, if you had it in the top right hand corner and listened to audio, you'd find it pretty damn useful
<infinity> grndslm: I tihnk the point people are trying to make here is that the user will put stuff in the corner that is best for them.
<seb128> I change the sound from the applet every now and then
<seb128> probably not once a day
<infinity> For me, the calendar is the thing I like to click on the most, so it lives there.
<grndslm> infinity, but most people are st00pit, so why not just do it right the first time...isn't that the whole point of ubuntu?
<grndslm> ok...but the calendar applet is huge
<grndslm> the volume applet is friggin' tiny
<seb128> doing right it not putting the volume there
<infinity> grndslm: "right" implies that you know what's best for everyone.
<seb128> people don't change their volume that often
<pygi> grndslm: and you can't know that
<infinity> grndslm: If you want the volume there, then move it. :)
<seb128> when they do that's often with the keyboard or the app they are using
<seb128> most of players have a volume slider
<infinity> "For every usability expert, there are dozens of lynch mobs who use their computers the 'wrong' way."
<sivang> infinity: lol
<pitti> dap
<pitti> oops, sorry, EFOCUS
<infinity> pitti: alias dap='dchroot -c dapper' ?
* infinity is taking a wild guess here.
<pitti> infinity: no, 'dap' as in the vim command
<infinity> Oh. :)
<seb128> bah, vim user
* pitti puts his mouse further away
<pygi> seb128: what's wrong with vim? :P
<ajmitch> hi mpt 
<seb128> pygi: you have to learn weird command line 'dap' :p
<grndslm> look it's a logical choice, i'd rather you move it for everybody else since you can and i can't...(a)ubuntu is primarily used on desktops, and (b)you only logout ONCE per session, whereas desktop users change their volume incessantly, and (c) you can throw the mouse at the calendar applet no matter where it is, and hit it first time....not so with the volume app
<pitti> infinity: what you said is called 'dchdapper' for me :)
<thom> it's not got a g at the front, so seb won't use it ;-)
<seb128> s/line/like
<pygi> seb128: heh :P
* seb128 hugs thom
<grndslm> anyway...i'm just saying think about it, not that it's right or wrong...but MAYBE it is right
<pitti> seb128: 'd'elete 'a' 'paragraph'
<grndslm> thanks for listening...
<grndslm> i'm out
<seb128> pitti: aaaahhhhh
<pitti> seb128: ctrl+space, 10x cursor down, and ctrl+w takes much longer :)
<pitti> seb128: (AFAIR the emacs commands)
<seb128> pitti: /me uses click and dnd :p
<infinity> I just lean on "d" until half the screen disappears.
<infinity> Been using vi for well over a decade, and I swear I'm the most vi-illiterate person out there.
<seb128> pitti: and the emacs way would be to set a mark and to delete between the mark and the cursor ;)
<seb128> (which is what you described)
<pitti> infinity: but using all the higher-level objects like paragraphs, brace/parens blocks, etc., that's where all the fun and efficiency comes in :)
<thom> infinity: i'll fight you for it!
<infinity> thom: No, really.  I win this one.
<thom> heh
<infinity> thom: :wq! (and variations), dd, x, i, a, (linenum)G, / ... I think I've exhausted everything I know about vi right there.
<pitti> you guys should try stuff like !3apsort ;)
<thom> infinity: right, you win
<infinity> thom: I may have a few more wired to muscle memory that I don't actually *think* about, but really, that's about it.
<infinity> And I've certainly never used !3apsort
<infinity> (!!)
<pitti> (pipe the next three paragraphs through the 'sort' shell command)
<seb128> who is that guy?
<pygi> seb128: richard :P
<pygi> seb128: just +b him for some time
<pitti> lol
<pygi> pitti: ^_^
<pitti> "Scotty, our officer can't quite materialize on our end"
* pitti blames the Heisenberg compensators
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o thom]  by ChanServ
<pygi> pitti: disagreed. Temporal fluctuations :P
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+b *!n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/nixternal]  by thom
<robertj> Daniel Stone should get two cookies, one for fixing something old and busted, another for making xorg.conf shorter
<Keybuk> hmm?
<robertj> http://www.fooishbar.org/blog/tech/x/input-hotplug-2006-11-02-15-19.html
<Keybuk> can we have *no* xorg.conf? :)
<robertj> Keybuk: I had a fantasy about that
<robertj> well it wasn't that it was not there, just that it was empty
<Keybuk> oh, cool, input hotplug
<fabbione> Keybuk: 7.2 or 7.3 will allow that
<Keybuk> I want keith's work on driver hotplug too
<robertj> I better get to making cookies
<robertj> or yall better contract that out or something
<Whoopie>  when is the edgy-commercial repository filled with the packages in dapper-commercial? any roadmap?
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-devel.log
<mog> hello
<mog> i came here to ask why the decision to use dash as apposed to bash for sh
<mog> it seems to have broken several projects makefiles, and shell scripts
<ogra> no
<ogra> if these scripts dont work *they* are broken 
<mog> ugh
<mog> no
<ogra> (broken == not POSIX compliant in this case)
<mog> that is fine
<mog> but what was the intention of purposefully breaking compatibility
<ogra> not if they use !#/bin/sh as shebang
<ogra> using that your scripts must be POSIX compliant 
<mog> no they still break
<mog> as sh used to point to bash
<ogra> if you use bash specific code, use !#/bin/bash
<mog> now it points to inferior dash
<mog> and doesnt work
<cjwatson> you'll find that your scripts will break on many other (non-Linux) systems if they break with dash
<mog> well if im not mistaken these scripts work with sh, just not dahs
<mog> er dash
<cjwatson> mog: what exactly breaks?
<cjwatson> I've run into one POSIX-compatibility bug in dash ever, and it was quite a corner case
<cjwatson> the decision was largely made for speed, but there was a certain amount of desire to eradicate the utter pest of bashisms in allegedly /bin/sh scripts too ...
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/launchpadassignedtome.user.js
<Keybuk> ^ anyone coming to MTV with specs, and who uses Firefox, might want that (install the Greasemonkey addon)
<sladen> mog: it's like speaking American English to a Britsh English speaker;  it might /look/ the same, but in certain cases it's not compliant with a copy of the Oxford English dictionary.
<sladen> s/the same/similar/
<dholbach> tfheen: It'll be a discussion about a REVU-like service.
<tfheen> dholbach: who is going to actually do the code reviews?
<ogra> dholbach, what about REVU2.0 did that ever get started ?
<dholbach> tfheen: which will not only serve the REVU use case, but speed up general review as well
<dholbach> tfheen: that's something we'll discuss there as well I hope
<dholbach> ogra: it never got started
<ogra> i think the spec already covered that usecase 
<tfheen> dholbach: ah, ok.   So it's kinda-ish-revu2?
<ogra> gah
<dholbach> tfheen: Mark registered it, I'm sure he has some clever ideas about it
<Keybuk> sladen: the OED is frequently wrong also
<Keybuk> I prefer the Collins
<dholbach> tfheen, ogra: I'd love to see somtehing with bzr intregration
<ogra> ++
<Keybuk> notably the OED thinks that "-ize" is a valid suffix for a word
<tfheen> dholbach: it's the clever ideas which scare me. :-)
<tfheen> s/which/that/
* dholbach hugs tfheen
<dholbach> we'll all be fine
<pitti> Mez: Seveas already has a pastebin script (exactly as you want it) for paste.ubuntu.nl
<KhanReaper> Hello, I have some questions about automated preseeding with Edgy and the expert recipe. So, I have followed the instructions in the Edgy appendix on disk partitioning, but the installer still brings up a prompt on partitioning the disks, asking whether I want to erase disk, use LVM, or perform custom partitioning. I've successfully automated preseeding before with Breezy and Dapper, and I've even consulted with those preseed files to see if I am
<KhanReaper> I've looked through the sources of some of the udebs, and nothing obvious appears. Could someone give me some tips?
<Mez> pitti, lol - yeah someone emailed me OL and told me about it .... I didnt know ;)
<Mez> pitti - though I was thinking more an apt-gettable script so we can use it in helping users
<pitti> downloading from somewhere will do fine, too, I guess
<KhanReaper> If there is a pastebin area, I would be glad to  include a few excerpts from the isolinux.cfg and my presed file.
<Mez> pitti, but then we have to tell them where to download it from, where to put it, how to call it
<Mez> pitti: but then how hard would it be to create a package to go into universe...
<cjwatson> KhanReaper: will talk with you after the meeting that's on right now
<pitti> Mez: right, but packaging it would require it to never change in years
<Mez> I'll speak to Seveas see what he thinks
<Mez> pitti, why ?
<pitti> Mez: if it's in a stable release
<tfheen> pitti: -updates? :-)
<Mez> tfheen, -backports
<tfheen> Mez: actually, -updates if the current version wouldn't work any more.
<Mez> pitti: I'm thinking more of a universe thing for now ;)
<pitti> tfheen: our current SRU is painful enough to not make me want to do it :)
<Mez> possibly to be included at some point in the future in main ... but once people get used to it
<Mez> pitti, how often do pastebins change their code ?
<pitti> Mez: the one for paste.ubuntu.nl recently stopped working
<pitti> (for me at least)
<Mez> pitti: another reason to set up a proper ubuntu pastebin ;)
<Mez> pitti: you have to admit, it'd be useful for a dev to be able to say "yeah, run this command" and then goto a webserver and get the paste info they need
<pitti> Mez: yes, I didn't argue that
<pitti> if we get something packaged, that should be fine
<Mez> pitti: actually come to think of it, if you had the pastebin on some ubuntu server - you could make it even more useful - by being able to import to bug reports from a pastebin
<Mez> pitti: do you think it would be possible to get an "official" (in the loosest sense of the word) ubuntu pastebin ?
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: ... what you think is freestandards.org. You know that DNS can be spoofed, right?
<pitti> Mez: hmm, paste.ubuntu.nl got quite famous; it's Seveas' call, of course
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: so I'd like some security-minded folks in on the discussion to make sure it's sane
<Mez> pitti: I agree, but I (and a lot of other people) tend to use rafb.net ;) and other places...
<Mez> different people tell people to ue different pastebins ;) it'd be nice to have one main one
<pitti> right
<Mez> pitti: I think it's an idea that could be discussed further
<pitti> Mez: I agree
<Mez> I'll reply to my post with a little summary of what we've just chatted over
<Mez> pitti: do you know anything about this "upstream" thing ?
<pitti> Mez: the 'upstream thing'... -v ?
<Mez> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Upstream
<elmo> that is the most ridiculous name EVER
<Mez> elmo, indeed ...
<Mez> elmo / pitti, but it's a good concept
* pitti -> dinner
<Mez> lol - and the guy we want to talk to quits
<Mez> isnt there now an ubuntu crash-handler -> bug reporter ?
<Treenaks> Mez: apport#
<Treenaks> minus the #
<Mez> thats the one 
<Mez> apport/crashdump
<Mez> Treenaks, can you find me an example of an apport log (or tell me where I might find it)
<Mez> pitti, ping me when you're back please
<Treenaks> Mez: /var/crash I guess
<Mez> Treenaks, it's not installed on my system
<Treenaks> ah
<Mez> kubuntu doesnt use it apparently
<Riddell> Mez: correct
<Mez> Riddell, would something like apport/crashdump be somehting we could consider for kubuntu ?
<Mez> I know we have the "KDE crash handler"
<Mez> but tbh... thats never really done anything except tell me something segfaulted and it cant find more info
<Riddell> Mez: install gdb and it gets the stacktrace fine for me
<Chipzz> tfheen: still here?
<Mez> Riddell, usually with "No debugging symbols found"
* Chipzz swears at stupid freenode for disconnecting him in the middle of a discussion
<cjwatson> KhanReaper: here
<_ion> chipzz: Couldn't you reconnect?
<tfheen> Chipzz: yes
<pitti> Mez: pong (*rubbing my belly*, hmmm)
<AlinuxSOS> pitti, good evening ;)
<pitti> Hi AlinuxSOS 
<AlinuxOS> looolz why sos...my ISP is killing my net every 20 minutes... :(
<Mez> pitti, have a read of my post to -devel first ;)
<Mez> and let me know what you think
* Mez -> ordering pizza
<pitti> willdo
* pitti had fried duck with rice, *smack*
<pitti> bug 69905 -- oh dear, the first feisty bug
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 69905 in gs-esp "gs segfaults on feisty" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/69905
<pitti> *we didn't even bootstrap yet*  hrmpf
<Mez> and elmo, you'll be happy I made a new name - gigt ;)
<ajmitch> morning
* pitti waves to ajmitch 
* Mez cant find the thing for the pizza place
<Mez> :)
<ajmitch> hey pitti, how's it going?
<pitti> ajmitch: pretty well, thanks
<pitti> ajmitch: will you come to USD by any chance?
<ajmitch> yeah
* Mez tries to find a pen
<pitti> Mez: what's that?
<Mez> Its something you use for signing things if you havent got gpg
<pitti> weird
<Mez> things like cheques
<Mez> lol
<sladen> BACS has thankfully mostly replaced the need to do that.
<tfheen> what's a cheque?
<sladen> ...and charging people an extra 20.00 GBP to receiving a cheque mostly deals with the rest
* _ion wishes everything could be signed with PGP.
<sladen> tfheen: the generic instance of a bank note
* Mez apologises for the general rambling in that email
<Treenaks> sladen: ah! bank notes are objects of class cheque? :)
<Mez> Bank_Note extends Cheque
<Treenaks> I haven't seen them in use for more than 10 years here..
<Mez> bank notes?
<Treenaks> cheques
<Mez> they're quite common over here in the UK
<_ion> I've never seen one.
* Mez sees lots....
<Mez> _ion, you've probably had jobs where they have a working BACS system
* Mez sees more than most people
* bhale uses a debit card for everything
<bhale> really most everything
<LaserJock> I do too
* Mez pays for takeaways with cheque cause most of them dont accept card and I dont carry cash with me
<bhale> takeaway?
<LaserJock> bhale: except fast food for me
<Mez> pizza, curry etc etc
<bhale> LaserJock: fast food here takes debit
<Mez> (home delivery)
<LaserJock> bhale: how nice :-)
<bhale> LaserJock: i happen to work on it, too
<tepsipakki> debit card uses your bank account directly?
<bhale> debit over ssl internet for mcdonalds etc
<LaserJock> interesting
* Mez rarely carries cash on his person
<bhale> tepsipakki: yes
<Mez> It's just a pain in the ass.... and my work etc etc
<tepsipakki> strange terminology :)
<tepsipakki> for me..
<bhale> debit: The process of subtracting from the balance of an account.
<bhale> credit would be the stranger term in a literal sense
<tepsipakki> yeah, I have a combination of a bank card & visa
<tepsipakki> visa is great when you travel, but dangerous otherwise :)
<Amaranth> visa is dangerous always
<Amaranth> not having checks is a real PITA when you need your routing number :)
* LaserJock has a mattress, j/k
<Treenaks> Amaranth: routing number?
<Amaranth> paypal, for instance, needs your routing number and checking account number
<Amaranth> i don't know what it's for
<Amaranth> but it's on the bottom of a check
<bhale> for routing money from one bank account to another.
<bhale> as it implies
<Treenaks> Amaranth: In .nl, all you'll ever need is your bank accuont number... and all banks use the same number system (except for one, but everyone knows that that one is special)
<Treenaks> First 2 numbers indicate the bank
<sladen> welcome to IBAN.  Unified account namespace
<Treenaks> (of the account number)
<Treenaks> sladen: IBAN is nice, but IBANs are _huge_ compared to 9-digit numbers
<sladen> GB has  BB-BB-BB NNNNNNNN
<Treenaks> sladen: NL has (\d{9,10}|P\d+)
<Treenaks> (10-digit accounts are savings accounts)
<pitti> hm, what's wrong with the buildds? all are idle, and the new glibc needs build
<jbailey> pitti: I think they're all still in manual mode for bootstrapping.
<pitti> jbailey: hmm, AFAIK infinity intended to have this built...
<jbailey> pitti: Dunno for certain.  I know he accepted it, but I don't know if he stopped things to test the new gcc is the chroots or something.
<Mez> pitti: so your thoughts are ?
<voraistos> hello people. i am not a dev, and not requesting support, but did anybody see any kernel related problem on edgy? I keep breaking my system watching movies (xvid + ogg in OGM) and listening to music (ogg) i cant understand i keep getting kernel panic, syslog mail, and now system hardlock on boot... I dont want to reinstall it a third time... should i use a vanilla kernel or go back to dapper ?
<ubitux> hi
<ubitux> oups
#ubuntu-devel 2006-11-03
<SEJeff> OT: http://xkcd.com/ <-- pretty good ubuntu joke
<infinity> Anyone feel like writing a self-hosting toolchain that builds in a tenth of the time that glibc/gcc does?  kthx.
<_ion> Ok, will do.
<zul> sure...ill get right on it
<infinity> Excellent.  Champions, the lot of you.
<infinity> I look forward to your work.
<jorgp> lol
* infinity goes back to hating life and babysitting the bootstrap.
<Mez> infinity, I would do, but i've got work
<plugwash> out of interest why exactly is this bootstrap needed?
<plugwash> why can't new versions of gcc etc just filter in from debian like everything else?
<infinity> We use far more cutting edge versoins of glibc than Debian does.
<infinity> And we need to boostrap the toolchain to make sure it all gets along Just So.
<lifeless> infinity: s/cutting/slicing and dicing/
<infinity> Add to that the ABI breakage that we just landed in GCC (go us), and we have all sorts of fun.
<lifeless> what did we do ?
<ajmitch> ABI breakage is only ppc/sparc?
<infinity> ajmitch: Yeah.
<infinity> lifeless: Backported the ldbl-128 changes from 4.2 (better to eat the breakage now than later)
<infinity> Here's hoping I get it all done before I need to be on a plane in 24 hours.
* infinity envisions finishing up from a shoddy wireless connection in NZ...
<ajmitch> shoddy & expensive
<infinity> ajmitch: What's connectivity like at the Auckland airport?
<ajmitch> how long do you have to wait in auckland?
<infinity> Ahh.  Expensive.  Awesome.
<ajmitch> probably poor, I haven't tried recently
<infinity> I have a couple/few hours, nothing drastic.
* ajmitch has about 1 hour, including customs & related tasks
<infinity> Customs?
<infinity> From NZ to NZ, they don't generally care about what you're  importing. :)
<plugwash> any particular reason for using such cutting edge versions? does it improve performance or something?
<infinity> plugwash: Gives us some shiny features, and it can be handy to track upstream more closely.
<ajmitch> well I'm coming from a domestic flight
<ajmitch> there's some minimal checking on the way out, iirc
<infinity> plugwash: It also gives us warm fuzzy feelings to be able to mention it to our users (who, for the most part, don't care, but think they should)
<ajmitch> 1 hour should be plenty
<lifeless> ajmitch: domestic->international in nz will mean no checking on the way into aukland, but regular emmigration on the way to the international flight
<ajmitch> yeah, that's what I expect
<infinity> I wonder if I'm in Auckland long enough to clear security and come back...
<infinity> Not that there's any valid reason to do so, but then I'd have an NZ stamp in my passport. :)
<mjg59> infinity: You've been in .au how long and you don't have an NZ stamp?
<mjg59> Hell, *I've* got one
<infinity> mjg59: Three years.  I know, it's sad.
<infinity> Zofia and I kept meaning to vacation in .nz, but never got around to it.
<mjg59> It's a nice place
<infinity> So I've heard.
<infinity> Lovely scenery and friendly poeple with funny accents.
<infinity> Sounds good.
* Mez -> bed
<dabaR> Why does the gnome panel not ask me for my password when I run an administrative applet from the panel in edgy?
<dabaR> Do you think it is a bug?
<dabaR> A security bug!
<dabaR> Anyhow, I thought you guys might want to be the first ones to know about it...
<grndslm> soo...lvm is included in dapper, but not in edgy?
<lifeless> its in edgy
<grndslm> umm....not mine
<grndslm> i tried pvscan, and no go
<infinity> dabaR: The first one you opened probably triggered gksudo, and then your credentials were cached for a while.
<lifeless> what do you mean
<dabaR> infinity: nope...
<HrdwrBoB> grndslm: restart lvm
<lifeless> (I'm typing from a machine using lvm/evms)
<HrdwrBoB> /etc/init.d/lvm restart
<dabaR> I just opened the panel. And there is another person on #ubuntu talking about the same thing, I thought it was cause I use openbox.
<grndslm> i had to install lvm2!! ...and still can't use pvscan, but maybe the restart will work
<grndslm> brb
<Fujitsu> Isn't lvm2 depended on by some low-lying metapackage!?
<dabaR> actually, I blamed it on being high last night, but I remembered it cause this guy in #ubuntu is asking about it.
<infinity> dabaR: Well, it's pretty much impossible for it to be running as root without some sort of su/sudo.  So it's either running as you (and effectively useless), or you have cached credentials.
<grndslm> ok...did need a restart...but i thought it shoulda been installed by default
<infinity> grndslm: We don't install it by default anymore, no.
<lifeless> Fujitsu: the lvm core is, but not the lvm userspace
<dabaR> infinity: look, I use Ubuntu since warty...
<grndslm> ok...just checkin, thanks
<infinity> grndslm: The general theory being that most people don't want or need LVM, and it just serves to confuse.
<dabaR> infinity: it's not a joke...
<grndslm> makes sense to me
<lifeless> infinity: is the lvm2 userspace needed for lvm booting to work ?
<Fujitsu> lifeless: Aha.
<infinity> lifeless: Yes, it's where the initramfs hooks come from.
* lifeless reinstalls that
<infinity> I think.
<lifeless> so that his next reboot will work
* infinity checks.
<dabaR> infinity: I just added a user to make sure.
<infinity> (base)adconrad@cthulhu:~$ dpkg -S /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks/lvm 
<infinity> lvm-common: /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks/lvm
<infinity> However, that hook script won't do much of anything useful without lvm2 installed as well.
<dabaR> infinity: and succesfully logged in as him
<lifeless> righto
<lifeless> so, I trusted that it would just work, given that the lvm2 packages were auto-removed during upgrade.
<infinity> lifeless: If you have a working initramfs, you don't need the userspace tools, of course, but the very next time your initramfs is generated without the userspace installed, you lose. :)
<lifeless> boy am I glad I haven't rebooted recently
<infinity> You might want to "update-initramfs -u" after reinstalling lvm2, if you're paranoid. :)
<dabaR> So you guys are sure it was not a change in pam settings or something like that?
<dabaR> Or sudoers, or something...
<lifeless> infinity: doing so ;)
<dabaR> Im in #ubuntu often...
<lifeless> however, as its a xen box, its more a case of 'sudo mkinitramfs -o /boot/xen0-linux-2.6.17-6-generic-xen0.initrd.img 2.6.17-6-generic-xen0'
<infinity> lifeless: Hrm.  lvm2 being auto-removed due to the minimal->lvm2 dependency causing it to be "auto-installed" is a bit problematic, isn't it?
<infinity> lifeless: You're the first person who's mentioned that...
<lifeless> infinity: I would have thought so
<lifeless> but like I say, I trust you guys not to hose my system :)
<infinity> I don't. :P
<Fujitsu> Another way to hose your system is to create an LVM snapshot immediately after installing.
<Fujitsu> It sort of explodes, but then works after a reboot or two.
<lifeless> I found one interesting thing
<lifeless> which is that theres some geometry/translation thing
<lifeless> makes my pv[2]  fail until I go into evms and out again
<lifeless> very bizarre
<lifeless> infinity: I'm guessing the devmapper uninstall is also problematic ?
<lifeless> infinity: sorry, dmsetup
<infinity> Don't know if anything you use would use dmsetup, but if so, "yes"?
<lifeless> well, evms uses devmapper, dunno if it needs the dmsetup tools or not.
<infinity> I see no calls to dmsetup in the evms initramfs scripts.
<lifeless> easiest way is for me to do up a xen guest with evms, uninstall that shit and see what happens
<infinity> Was this box a dapper->edgy upgrade, or an edgy->edgy upgrade?
<infinity> Cause I didn't think we marked auto-installed packages in dapper (so the lvm2 autoremoval shouldn't happen in that case), now that I think about it.
<lifeless> dapper->edgy
<lifeless> its my home stable server
<infinity> Hrm.
<infinity> Fun.
<lifeless> it started life a long long long time ago
<grndslm> uh...anybody here got a treo 650 that they sync with ubuntu?
<grndslm> soo...nobody here owns a palm treo, eh?
<grndslm> i find that hard to believe
<tritium> grndslm: support in #ubuntu please
<grndslm> nobody there can support me
<grndslm> i've tried to sync my 650 with ubuntu for the past 3 releases and it never works, no matter how many howtos i read
<grndslm> why would i get a fsck.ext3 error at boot that says "unable to resolve UUID: 23fe9a9b02d-239....yada yada"?  even tho it says it's clean??
<grndslm> ok....found why the fsck.ext3 error about UUID stops my boot process....but could you guys explain why the UUIDs are in my fstab to begin with?
<Fujitsu> grndslm: Because Ubuntu uses UUIDs for all filesystems it can in Edgy.
<grndslm> Fujitsu:  so...UUIDs should be in fstab?
<Fujitsu> Correct.
<grndslm> hmm....interesting...well, i swapped out my second hard drive, so that's why i'm getting the error
<grndslm> and i think i'm just gonna do a fresh re-install
<grndslm> but while i'm gone...think about this:  to rephrase my suggestion from last night regarding moving the volume applet to the top-right corner....it would be the BETTER TRADEOFF, no?  if you don't agree, i don't think that you're practically thinking about the average desktop user and their usage of their desktop!   :D
<grndslm> i feel like i'm gonna have to nag on that one issue 'til i'm dead...
<grndslm> i'm out
<StevenK> mpt: Are you able to push your glade changes for AboutWindow? Also, I'm unsure if I should just edit the spec's wiki page, since I've fixed the window closing bug, drag-n-drop now works, and Hardware Details now runs hal-device-manager. Does this make me a contributor? :-)
<dholbach> good morning
<mpt> StevenK, awesome
<mpt> StevenK, I still get "Not a branch" from your branch
<StevenK> Um. Wierd.
<StevenK> Who's the bazaar.l.n person we can throw this too? :-)
<mpt> ddaa
<mpt> who should be around in five hours or so
<StevenK> mpt: Hrm. It just worked for me on my Edgy box here.
<StevenK> bzr pull http://..../~stevenk/about-window/dev gives 3 revision(s) pulled
<mpt> Can you do "bzr log sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~stevenk/about-window/dev/" ?
<mpt> oh, http works
<StevenK> Neat.
<StevenK> mpt: Rev 4 has been pushed, but hasn't hit http:// yet.
<mpt> hmm
<mpt> I think drag-and-drop should work without allowing selection
<mpt> on the grounds that you never (or hardly ever) just want *part* of the version number
<mpt> What do you think?
<StevenK> Sounds reasonable, but how does one implement that? :-)
<mpt> No idea :-)
<StevenK> mpt: And should I just bend the wiki page to my will and remove some the bugs listed?
<mpt> sure
<StevenK> Kay. I'll do that when I get home in about an hour.
<mpt> thank you
<StevenK> Drag-n-drop without selecting text .... that's a nice tricky problem.
<dholbach> we're past 70000 bugs!
<dholbach> woah!
<tarzeau> who knows about the cd mastering (glass) and production of ubuntu?
<nixternal> is jdizzle the planet hacker around at all?  that is jdub ;)
<mpt> StevenK, pushed the glade changes
<mpt> tarzeau, nobody in this channel I think
<mpt> tarzeau, actually, marilize might know :-)
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> heya pitti
<ajmitch> morning pitti 
* pitti is confused about seeing syncs to edgy -- how on earth is that allowed?
<ajmitch> hm?
<pitti> on -changes
<ajmitch> which bugs?
<pitti> ooh, they are from October 23
<ajmitch> old mail, perhaps
<pitti> why did I get them just now?
<ajmitch> I got some mail come through, I assumed it was my ISP being annoying
<tarzeau> marilize: ping
<tarzeau> mpt: thank yyou
<marilize> hi tarzeau
<jdub> hi marilize!
<marilize> jdub! hellooo
<bronson> Is there any way to build a package from CVS directories?
<bronson> Seems to work fine except that the CVS dirs end up in the source package.
<bronson> Then lintian complains...
<bronson> Is there any way to keep my files in CVS and yet ensure that the CVS dirs don't end up in the source package?
<pitti> bronson: use dpkg-buildpackage's -i switch
<pitti> bronson: (or debuild -i, whichever you use)
<bronson> pitti: that makes sense.  Thanks!
<Hobbsee> /aaway
<StevenK> Heh
<Hobbsee> ouch
<pitti> speling iz hadr
<pitti> hi lloydinho 
<lloydinho> hi pitti!
<lloydinho> Getting ready to go to west?
<pitti> lloydinho: yeah, looking forward to it
<tarzeau> marilize: do you know anything about cd glass mastering and production? real life example, w/ ubuntu?
<tarzeau> marilize: like prices, business contact?
<tarzeau> country, shipping etc
<tarzeau> i have made GNUSTEPU that i'd like to press, version 1.0
<lloydinho> pitti: I'm coming too, y'know.. so I'll see you on Sunday evening.. :-)
<pitti> oh, nice!
<tfheen> lloydinho: travels to .dk was fine?
<lloydinho> tfheen: Yes, thank you. Only slight delight due to the ice on the ground.
<lloydinho> s/delight/delay
<lloydinho> weird typo..
<pitti> ooh, new libc is in the archive
<pitti> infinity: ^ does that mean the bootstrap is complete or is there still something missing?
<infinity> I'm dangerously close to unfreezing feisty.
* pitti holds his breath
<infinity> pitti: ldbl128 rebuilds happening now, THEN I thaw it.
<infinity> Hoping to finish up before I have to catch my flight in the morning. :)
<infinity> (should make it)
<pitti> infinity: sounds like 'long double 128' -> is that a particular lib or so?
<infinity> Slight gcc ABI change on powerpc and sparc, doing mass rebuilds of everything affected.
<hunger> which gcc version will feisty be build with?
<infinity> Or, rather, everything *possibly* affected, since measuring actual breakage looked a lot like effort.
<infinity> hunger: 4.1... Ish.
<hunger> infinity: So same as edgy?
<infinity> Note the "ish".
<infinity> But, other than the above-mentioned ABI break, it's pretty much the same as edgy, yes.
<infinity> Shiny new binutils and glibc, though.
<hunger> infinity: ish is something like post-but-pre-the-next-version?
<hunger> infinity: with all those linker speedups?
<Burgundavia> infinity plans on freezing feisty until feisty+1 opens, less buildd work :)
<infinity> Not sure about "all", but there should be some bling in glibc 2.5, yes.
<hunger> nice:-)
<Hobbsee> Burgundavia: haha 
<infinity> Burgundavia: More work when it's frozen, trust me.
<infinity> Burgundavia: My job is 10-fold worse when the archive is frozen.
* hunger wonders how long he can stop himself from upgrading his laptop to feisty.
<Burgundavia> hunger: the urge is getting stronger
<hunger> Burgundavia: it definitly is.
<Hobbsee> hunger: not long.  i'm thinking of adding a feisty partition tonight
<infinity> It's nothing but a new toolchain so far.
<hunger> maybe I should install xen and have a virtual feisty box instead.
<infinity> Well, and a kernel, if you're painfully brave/stupid.
<pitti> 2.6.19 runs happily on my iBook
<pitti> I installed it to play with the new 'support pipes in core_pattern' stuff
<hunger> infinity: Yes, I am painfully stupid when it comes to updating my linux distri:-(
<fabbione> pitti: freezes on mind once in a while
* pitti hugs fabbione for his mail about the IFA_RTA stuff and fixes the ipsec-tools FTBFS
<whadar> is it possible for casper to persist over an NFS mount? i want home persistence over the network... i know this might be problematic cause nfs rw on unionfs doesnt play well
<cbx33> If I wanted to identify a file, as to whether it was audio/document/movie/image is file the best way to go about it....I don;t want to rely on file extensions
<Mez> mdz / cjwatson ping
<mirak> hi
<fernando> morning all
<mirak> fglrx-kernel-source seems broken, or the name doesn't match the name that module assistant knows
<kagou> how can i use evolution-dbg package ? Because i have some crash with evolution and i know that evolution-dbg is better to report crash logs
<mirak> I filled a bug report
<bddebian> Howdy
<jonh_wendell> pitti: do you confirm lang pack updates for edgy-updates?
<pitti> jonh_wendell: I prepare them and ask for testing, yes
<jonh_wendell> pitti: when (do you think) will they available to people?
<pitti> jonh_wendell: you can use the dailies for testing (feedback appreciated)
<pitti> jonh_wendell: we just released edgy, so I won't update them again now
<jonh_wendell> pitti: yes, i know that. i'm asking because last time we chatted you talked something about 1 month after edgy release. is it correct?
<pitti> jonh_wendell: yes, start of December, when we'll also update the dapper packs
<jonh_wendell> pitti: can you put here the line for edgy's sources.list?
<pitti> deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/langpacks/daily/edgy-updates/ ./
<jonh_wendell> pitti: thanks!
<BenC> does "Breaks" work?
<BenC> The kernel for feisty "breaks" the edgy wireless-tools package, and I don't want to add a conflict to the old version if Breaks will work
<Keybuk> BenC: how do you feel about adding Depends: udev, initramfs-tools, etc. to the kernel?
<BenC> Keybuk: I don't feel bad about it at all :)
<BenC> Keybuk: Anything besides initramfs-tools and udev that are actual depends?
<Keybuk> upstart?
<zMott> where would I report a major bug in ubuntu networking?
<Keybuk> Linux does kinda depend on /sbin/init
<BenC> Keybuk: upstart isn't essentil?
<BenC> zMott: launchpad.net
<zMott> what area
<zMott> this is not crashing the system
<zMott> but its stalling out the network
<BenC> Keybuk: upstart is Priority: required...do I really need to depend on it?
<Keybuk> BenC: APT doesn't pay attention to priorities, no?
<Keybuk> it's not like dselect, which actually installs everything <= standard unless you explicitly tell it not to
<BenC> I'm just trying to think of a case where we may not want to depend on upstart
<Seveas> people who don't like upstart?
<Seveas> (then again, those people probably use custom kernels)
<BenC> Keybuk: BTW, upstart is ignoring this line in my /etc/inittab
<BenC> X:23:respawn:/bin/su root /usr/bin/startx
<BenC> Keybuk: initctl list doesn't even show it
<Keybuk> upstart doesn't parse /etc/inittab
<BenC> it's a mame machine where I start the UI via inittab
<BenC> Keybuk: Isn't that part of compatibility?
<Keybuk> cat > /etc/event.d/startx << EOF
<Keybuk> start on runlevel-2
<Keybuk> start on runlevel-3
<Keybuk> stop on runlevel-4
<Keybuk> stop on runlevel-5
<Keybuk> stop on shutdown
<Keybuk> respawn /bin/su root /usr/bin/startx
<Keybuk> EOF
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> upstart is not backwards compatible with sysvinit
<Keybuk> it was never intended to be
<jonh_wendell> iwj: can you take a look at bug 68663?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 68663 in firefox "[Edgy]  Incompatible with Google Toolbar." [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/68663
<Keybuk> at least, not from the system point of view
<Keybuk> e.g. it doesn't parse /etc/inittab, it doesn't listen on /dev/initctl
<BenC> how do I get it to reread the events?
<Keybuk> it watches the directory with inotify
<cbx33> is inotify easy to interface with in python
<Keybuk> cbx33: I imagine someone has written a module by now
<BenC> Keybuk: Thanks, it's started now
<Keybuk> BenC: when you install upstart, it looks for common things in /etc/inittab and converts them to /etc/event.d files
<Keybuk> but inittab is so utterly free form, it's very hard to do arbitrary things
<BenC> Keybuk: Maybe mv inittab out of the way (/etc/inittab.upstart-disabled) and leave a file there explaining all this
<Keybuk> BenC: too late now :)
<Keybuk> edgy is released
<BenC> what?!?! when did this happen!?! :)
<Treenaks> BenC: you didn't get the memo?
<dholbach> doko_: a shame you don't get karma for uploads yet
<doko_> dholbach: nah, these are auto-generated
<dholbach> :-)
<seb128> dholbach: you say that because you beat doko number of uploads during the edgy cycle? :p
<dholbach> wait for the "feisty results"! ROAR!
<doko_> seb128: that will become difficult for feisty ...
<doko_> seb128: do you have numbers?
<seb128> doko_: 444 for dholbach
<seb128> doko_: 441 for you
<dholbach> muhuhuahhahahaha
<seb128> :)
<dholbach> seb128: how many for you?
<seb128> dholbach: not the topic :p
* dholbach hands the prize over to Mr. Sbastien "upload" Bacher
* seb128 hugs dholbach
<dholbach> or as his friends call him  dput-sb
* dholbach hugs seb128 back
<dholbach> i'm out - see you guys in a bit
<seb128> dholbach: and I'm still scoring for edgy, I've uploaded a couple of other edgy updates today :p
<dholbach> hehe
<seb128> dholbach: drive safe :)
<dholbach> just picking up the car 
<dholbach> brb
<seb128> k
<seb128> see you soon then
<BenC> # kopt=root=UUID=880e2998-3bf0-4e8c-a437-89fac4b411d2 ro
<BenC> # kopt_2_6=root=/dev/sda1 ro
<BenC> anyone know why new installs still have that second line in grub's menu.lst?
<BenC> it's sort of pointless to have this neat UUID stuff that's supposed to make pata upgrades to feisty work when the UUID isn't being used :)
<doko_> pitti: ping
<pitti> hi doko_ 
<lastnode> pitti, got a sec?
<pitti> lastnode: hello; what's up?
<lastnode> pitti, regarding your conversation with Martin Meredith on http://www.upstreamdev.org 
<lastnode> i answered a lot of his concerns
<pitti> great
<_ion> I think the "pci, video, network, apt" checkboxes should be checked by default, and the user should be told to uncheck some of them *only* if she knows what she's doing.
<lastnode> pitti, http://upstreamdev.org/wiki/Releases/0.1.0 , break a .deb or two if you like ;-)
<lastnode> _ion, those are usability issues, read http://upstreamdev.org/wiki/Releases/0.1.0#Release_Notes, some of them are addressed there
<lastnode> this is an early alpha, so we still have only basic functionality. no polish at all :-)
<sivang> hi all
<sivang> is fesity open already?
<pitti> sivang: not yet
<sivang> pitti: ah, okay, I just saw tons of uploads to feisty-changes
<sivang> pitti: of various stuff in main
<EvanCarroll> I've got a really odd problem and I'm going to file a bug report on it, but I can't figure out enough information to make it really helpful, so I'm looking for ideas
<pitti> sivang: just doko's rebuilds, I assume?
<EvanCarroll> Yesterday night I rebuilt my /etc/network/interfaces script and today i notice something very strange, when i boot up, if it fails to get an ip address the whole system runs slow, almost like its borking acpi and throttling by 90%
<_ion> You could start by showing your /etc/network/interfaces.
<EvanCarroll> I can't figure out any more information, but the bottom for gnome for isntance, is about 3minutes if i run `ifup ath0`, where as if i shut the interface down its like 5 seconds
<_ion> Also, use ifup -v ath0
<EvanCarroll> let me get that interfaces, up, and the out put for -v didn't even know there was a v
<EvanCarroll> nothing is being recorded to syslog
<EvanCarroll> it should also be noted i'm using madwifi
<EvanCarroll> hrm
<EvanCarroll> this is the most screwed up thing I've ever seen.
<thom> i'd suggest that something is trying to resolve a hostname
<EvanCarroll> Yes, I think your right.
<EvanCarroll> to some extent.
<EvanCarroll> I mean aparently someone has it set to resync clcok with ntp.ubuntu.com
<EvanCarroll> the script using static address so it makes it that far.
<EvanCarroll> but the static address corresponds to a non-existant network
<EvanCarroll> because I'm at work
<EvanCarroll> and then I'm kind of lost, becuase it would see as if the termination of ifup indicates that it has timed out, and yet the performance lag doesn't recede. And the kicker is, that my gkrellium graphs don't show abnormal utilization, just that everything runs slow
<EvanCarroll> as if it was throttled
<EvanCarroll> so I think the bug lies somewhere in the assumption that every ifup on a static address will work, which in the case of wireless amongst others is surely not true
<pitti> $ ls uploads/feisty/*.changes|wc -l
<pitti> 25
<pitti> *nnnng* must ... upload .. crack ... *nnng*
<EvanCarroll> hrm
<sivang> pitti: hmm, I have some problem with my .procmailrc , you were right :)
<EvanCarroll> i'm attaching the strace, and ltrace, I'm just going to post it on launchpad
<EvanCarroll> hrm
<EvanCarroll> what should i file the bug in, I know it will just get reassigned anyway
<EvanCarroll> ntp vs interfaces?
<EvanCarroll> I filed it under netbase
<EvanCarroll> bug num 70108
<EvanCarroll> strace/ltrace/ifup -v/and the actual interfaces file are provided
<jonh_wendell> who is the firefox mantainer? pitti?
<pitti> jonh_wendell: iwj
<jonh_wendell> pitti: thanks
<pitti> I did some security updates, though
<jonh_wendell> iwj: ping
<cjwatson> jonh_wendell: always helps to say what you want, otherwise iwj will see your ping in two or three days and have to ask you then, rather than just knowing up-front
<jonh_wendell> :)
<tfheen> it also means people don't ping, then get a pong ten hours later and don't remember what they pung about.
<Spads> that's why people ping instead of asking a question
<Spads> if you don't answer, it was easier to just do something else instead
<Chipzz> tfheen: aha
<tfheen> Spads: bah, silly people.  There's nothing wrong with long-winded conversations which takes a few days to be completed because the answers are eight hours apart. :-)
<Spads> haha
<Spads> tfheen: no, but sometimes it's not worth it
<Chipzz> tfheen: or freenode kicking them off the server because of a 'DDoS'
<Spads> but yeah, contentless pings remind me sometimes of people who enter a technical channel and say "can I ask a question?" and then exit in a huff when nobody says "yes"
<tfheen> Spads: if it's not worth it, then you shouldn't ping either. :-)
<tfheen> Chipzz: oh, that too.
<tfheen> Chipzz: wonderful IRC network we're on.
<Chipzz> tfheen: anyway, what I meant
<Chipzz> for illustration purposes I moved /usr/lib/pkgconfig/sqlite3.pc out of the way and ran configure for some program:
<Chipzz> checking for SQLITE3... configure: error: Package requirements (sqlite3 >= 3.0) were not met:
<Chipzz> No package 'sqlite3' found
<Chipzz> the last line is from pkg-config
<Chipzz> line 484
<tfheen> yes, it is.
<jonh_wendell> cjwatson: i've typed something to iwj early, but got no response so far. Can i subscribe him to a firefox bug?
<Chipzz> what I was suggesting is changing that to "No package 'sqlite3' found"
<Chipzz> crap
<Chipzz> what I was suggesting is changing that to "No package 'sqlite3' found". Check http://www.ubuntu.com/pkgconfig?search=sqlite3" for how to install that package"
<cjwatson> jonh_wendell: that hardly seems to be up to me ...
<cjwatson> jonh_wendell: note that there's about to be a developer summit and so many of us are travelling; in fact, I should be packing now
<cjwatson> jonh_wendell: if you actually want an answer to something rather than chatting, use e-mail rather than IRC
<jonh_wendell> cjwatson: ok, i'll subscribe him so that he'll be notified by email. I hope he doesn't get furious with me :)
<fdoving> mdz: could you take a look at the new patch added to bug 69583 ? (kopete icq fix, SRU) Thanks in advance.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 69583 in kopete "SRU: kopete can't connect to ICQ. " [Low,Fix committed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/69583
<mirak> does anyone knows how to rebuild a kernel image package from the source package and a specific target ? 
<codingmaster> join #launchpad
<keescook> versioning question... I'm starting with 4.4.1-9.1build1, but going to 4.4.1-9.1ubuntu0.1 does not appear to evaluate as "newer".  Should this be 4.4.1-9.1ubuntu1 instead?
<BenC> keescook: probably
<keescook> BenC: okay.  I'm used to doing the .1 revs for security updates.  :)  thanks!
<cjwatson> keescook: um
<keescook> cjwatson: or should it be 1.1?  hmm
<cjwatson> keescook: $ dpkg --compare-versions 4.4.1-9.1build1 lt 4.4.1-9.1ubuntu0.1; echo $?
<cjwatson> 0
<cjwatson> keescook: ubuntu0.1 is newer
<cjwatson> that's just fine, "ubuntu" > "build"
<keescook> cjwatson: that's weird... doing an upgrade of this fix for rpm didn't catch that it needed the new version of librpm4...
<cjwatson> I think something else must be wrong
<cjwatson> the version comparison algorithm alternates digit and non-digit chunks and compares each in turn numerically or lexicographically respectively
<keescook> ew, yeah, the deps aren't strong...
<keescook> librpm4 (3 4.4.2)
<cjwatson> do they need to be? i.e. does ubuntu0.1 introduce new ABI?
<keescook> no, I guess not.  librpm4 has the fix.  I was just surprised when it let me install the rpm_*.deb file without the matching librpm4_*.deb
<cjwatson> sometimes binaries from the same package have (= ${binary:Version}) or similar deps
<cjwatson> but it isn't required
<keescook> cjwatson: yeah, I wasn't really thinking about ABI versions, which is what really matters for the Depends.  when this rolls into security, they'll both get installed due to build1 < ubuntu0.1, so no one will run into my think-o.
* cjwatson nods
<lifeless> ok, so ubuntu boot too fast :(
<lifeless> edgy specifically tries to bring up lvm2 before all the discs are ready
<lifeless> worth filing a bug ?
<grndslm> are there issues with syncing a treo 650 in edgy??  because it doesn't create a device node, even after adding the visor module & creating the custom udev file telling it to create the dev node at ttyUSB*
<Kaleo> hello
<grndslm> are there issues with udev creating a device node for palm devices (specifically a treo 650) in edgy??
<LaserJock> grndslm: you can check for bug reports on Launchpad
<cjwatson> this sort of thing is rarely udev; it's more likely to be e.g. the kernel not exposing the right thing in /sys
<cjwatson> I know nothing of the specifics here
<grndslm> well, damn...i don't understand how the kernel can create the node in 2.6.12 & 2.6.15, but not 2.6.17...i could never get it to sync before, but now when people say jpilot works flawlessly, I can't even start to use jpilot
<cjwatson> grndslm: exactly what device node is not being created that should be?
<grndslm> ttyUSB0 or ttyUSB1
<grndslm> i figured it was because i didn't load the visor module, so i did that....and it loads properly, according to /var/log/messages....so i tried creating a custom udev file telling it to create the dev node at ttyUSB*, and still nothing
<cjwatson> udev doesn't touch those at all
<cjwatson> it just passes the kernel device name straight through
<grndslm> according to ubuntuguide.org, the udev file has to be created
<cjwatson> URL?
<grndslm> it's on ubuntuguide.org....here's a quick jump, tho:  http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Edgy#How_to_configure_PalmOS_Devices
<leonel> Hello    I'd like to know  what Ubuntu Developers  and leaders think about  the  novell Ms  agreement 
<leonel> any link ?
<cjwatson> grndslm: looks pretty bogus to me
<grndslm> ok...well, there's still no device node either way, with or without that file
<bhale> leonel: i imagine mark will blog it soon enough
<bhale> leonel: watch planet.ubuntu.com for all kinds of opinions
<bhale> dont expect them all to reflect ubuntu as a whole, though
<cjwatson> grndslm: unless I'm much mistaken (and I concede I don't know udev as well as some), adding that file will break the rest of udev
<bhale> go quoting it out of context etc
<cjwatson> grndslm: because it uses = for matching things rather than ==
<cjwatson> grndslm: that will cause all udev events to be changed to claim they're on the usb bus, are Palm Handhelds, etc., regardless of device
<grndslm> so, you don't have any advice then?  other than to file a bugreport or wait it out?
<cjwatson> and NAME{...} isn't documented in the udev man page so is probably wrong too
<cjwatson> I'd look in /sys for ttyUSB* nodes
<grndslm> ok
<grndslm> but /var/log/messages should still say where the node is created, no?  it doesn't
<jdong> out of pure curiousity, is it a bad idea (tm) to use the network inside a build script?
<tfheen> jdong: yes, it won't work.
<cjwatson> grndslm: I don't see why it would
<grndslm> hmm....ok...i'll look in /sys
<jdong> tfheen: well, it won't work on Ubuntu/Debian build servers :D
<cjwatson> grndslm: /var/log/udev would be a better bet
* jdong toying with some lazy svn snapshot building ideas....
<grndslm> ok
<jdong> never meant to see the light of official (tm) day
<tfheen> jdong: it's a violation of policy and is frowned upon, but if it's just your own package nobody else cares much, I guess.
<Burgwork> grndslm: from a member of the doc team, I can say that ubuntuguide is seriously crack and shoudl be avoided
<grndslm> Burgwork, will keep that in mind
<jdong> tfheen: ok... just trying to conserve some space/time on my end with building certain svn snapshot debs
<jdong> the end output is the same regardless of how the source is obtained
<jdong> so I guess not too much harm done :D
<grndslm> cjwatson, definitely no ttyUSB anywhere in that log
<grndslm> it's not gonna be a problem if i restart udev, is it?
<leonel> bhale: Ok  thanks
<grndslm> is it ok to restart udev?  don't wanna do it if it's gonna make my computer crap out
<cjwatson> grndslm: remove that broken rule first
<grndslm> did it already
<cjwatson> then it should be fine
<cjwatson> assuming you haven't applied any other weird crap since last starting udev :)
<tfheen> udev watches the rules directory, so restarting it makes less sense
<grndslm> ubuntuguide suggesting adding a rules file, which i did, but cj tells me that the suggestion itself made even lesser sense so i should remove it
<grndslm> suggested
<cjwatson> yeah, there's no particular need to restart it
* cjwatson posts http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1710693#post1710693 in the hope that someone will listen
<grndslm> well, you're right 'cause there's still no dev node created
<cjwatson> if you're in a hurry, just (a) file a bug and (b) create the device node manually
<grndslm> wow...how do i create it myself
<cjwatson> (you'd have to do that on every boot)
<grndslm> i'm willing to learn
<cjwatson> it's not guaranteed that this will work, if the visor module isn't actually working properly; but anyway
<cjwatson> sudo mknod /dev/ttyUSB0 c 188 0 && sudo ln -s ttyUSB0 /dev/visor
<grndslm> i could change the link to /dev/pilot, right?
<cjwatson> character major 188 minor 0 are the proper magic numbers for /dev/ttyUSB0
<cjwatson> I misspoke, I meant /dev/pilot
<grndslm> cool
#ubuntu-devel 2006-11-04
<grndslm> cjwatson, i created it, linked it to /dev/pilot, changed permissions, and jpilot still won't sync
<grndslm> so, if it's not automagically creating the dev node, and it won't sync....could it be the fault of the visor module?
<cjwatson> yes, very likely it's failing to talk to the hardware somehow
<grndslm> so, i should file a bug on launchpad?
<cjwatson> grndslm: yes, on linux-source-2.6.17
<grndslm> ok...
<Amaranth> arg, no jono
* cjwatson finishes forum-splurging all over ubuntuguide.org
<cjwatson> Burgwork: at the very least it desperately, desperately needs competent review
<cjwatson> I found six easily-correctable mistakes in 20 minutes
<Burgwork> cjwatson: the people from ubuntuguide just emailed us asking for a merge of projects
<mirak> LANG=en sudo apt-get build-dep vdr
<mirak> elmo: Build-Depends dependency for vdr cannot be satisfied because no available versions of package linux-kernel-headers can satisfy version requirements
<StevenK> Heh
<mirak> a really poor job was done on edgy
<mirak> linux-kernel-headers doesn't even exist in ubuntu
<mirak> apt is a problem for this
<mirak> I can't even fix that
<imbrandon> mirak, linux-libc-dev == linux headers
<imbrandon> in edgy
<mirak> imbrandon: ok but the dependance is not good
<mirak> in the control file
<imbrandon> sure then file a bug on vdr
<mirak> how can I fix that ?
<cjwatson> mirak: aside from the above, 'en' isn't a valid locale - that should be en_US.UTF-8 or en_GB.UTF-8 or whatever
<imbrandon> !info vdr
<mirak> cjwatson: it's just so you get the error in english
<mirak> otherwise it would be in french ...
<mirak> !info vdr
<imbrandon> mirak, vdr: Video Disk Recorder for DVB cards. In component universe, is extra. Version 1.4.0-2 (edgy), package size 693 kB, installed size 2108 kB
<cjwatson> mirak: bug 65340
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 65340 in vdr "[UNMETDEPS]  vdr has unmet dependencies" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/65340
<imbrandon> mirmeans its MOTU
<cjwatson> mirak: "a really poor job was done on edgy" is absurdly harsh
<cjwatson> it's one bug, and easily worked around
<tepsipakki> mirak: use the packages from e-tobi.net
<mirak> cjwatson: I couldn't even boot edgy !
<cjwatson> mirak: the value of LANG needs to be one of the values from the first column of /usr/share/i18n/SUPPORTED
<tepsipakki> mirak: the situation _will_ get better for feisty
<cjwatson> mirak: 'en' is not a valid locale
<cjwatson> mirak: wouldn't you agree that that's totally unconnected to this problem?
<mirak> cjwatson:  LANG=sdfsdf sudo apt-get build-dep vdr  
<mirak> cjwatson: that still output english, I don't ask more
<cjwatson> mirak: if that's all you want, then do 'LANG=C'
<mirak> ok
<cjwatson> some programs will emit an error or even refuse to start (hi, bzr) when you use an invalid locale
<tepsipakki> mirak: packages from e-tobi will be uplodaed to debian soonish, and thus to ubuntu
<tepsipakki> uploaded
<mirak> tepsipakki: I look at this, thanks
<tepsipakki> they install just fine
<tepsipakki> I have an edgy box with two tuners with e-tobi packages..
<mirak> do you use softcam ?
<mirak> or X output ?
<tepsipakki> nope
<tepsipakki> ttpci
<mirak> but you can't play divx
<tepsipakki> anyway, the packages at e-tobi are maintained by the same people that put the min debian, so they'll be merged in time
<tepsipakki> mirak: use the mplayer-plugin, works just fine
<mirak> ok
<mirak> hem I don't read german
<mirak> what rep should I take ?
<tepsipakki> unstable
<tepsipakki> which really isn't :)
<mirak> k
<tepsipakki> deb http://e-tobi.net/vdr-experimental sid vd-multipatch base addons ...
<tepsipakki> can't check right now, but that should work
<mirak> ok
<tepsipakki> multipach is nice.. subtitles and all
<tepsipakki> getting a bit offtopic :)
<mirak> tepsipakki: whoooho ! there is all the plugins
<mirak> tepsipakki: experimental have to many new packages
<tepsipakki> doesn't matter
<tepsipakki> e-tobi experimental, that is
<tepsipakki> should install just fine
<mirak> vdr-dev still won't install
<mirak> if I need to build the plugin softcam I need that
<mirak> tepsipakki: and also some addons are broken
<tepsipakki> hmm, ok..
<tepsipakki> mine is fine
<tepsipakki> can't check right now since the box is not on
<tepsipakki> mirak: I'll pass out soon, so try other versions of the repo or something :D ->
<StevenK> mpt: Rev 8 of my branch is pushing now - drag-n-drop works, and Kubuntu works as well.
<mirak> can you tell me what gives, apt-get build-dep mythtv ?
<mirak> this is also broken for me
<cjwatson> apt-get build-dep mythtv> works for me (I didn't try actually doing the installation, but it doesn't complain about conflicts or missing packages or anything)
<imbrandon> mythtv should be fine, i'm the one that did those builds and uploads, everything checked then ( and still seems too , i just checked )
<imbrandon> cjwatson, mirak ^
<imbrandon> so you might have other issues, or a non ubuntu mythtv
<imbrandon> mirak, ^
<mirak> imbrandon: no no
<mpt> StevenK, cool, thanks, I'll look at it on the plane
<mirak> apt hell
<cjwatson> nixternal: please note my edit to Ubiquity/ReleaseNotes
<nixternal> cjwatson: thanks for pointing that out ;)
<Lubix> hello please help me no one in the mono room is alive
<Lubix> does mono ofter visual gui designing?
<_ion> How does that relate to the development of Ubuntu?
<Lubix> can you help or no?
<Lubix> the mono thread is dead im trying to figure something out
<_ion> I would propose changing the topic from "Ubuntu Development" to "Development of Ubuntu", but the ones who should read it don't read it anyway. :-)
<Lubix> listen i know its not the approved forum dude i just want a question answered and i cant find it else where
<tfheen> Lubix: you might want to take a look at monodevelop
<Lubix> i did i just want to know how to get the visual designer mode open in mono
<Lubix> please
* Amaranth need jono
<Amaranth> he will be in san fran tomorrow, right?
<Burgundavia> likely
<Amaranth> ajmitch: ping?
<Burgundavia> likely already in transit
<Burgundavia> Amaranth: what do you need?
<Amaranth> wanted to know what hotel he was staying at
<Lure> Amaranth: wild palms sunnyvale
<Amaranth> Lure: ajmitch is staying somewhere else
<Burgundavia> ajmitch is staying with whiprush
<Lure> Amaranth: sorry, I though you meant jono...
<Amaranth> was looking for jono because i think he is the only one that will be there tomorrow :)
<Amaranth> i'll just have to get on IRC when i get there and see if someone else is there already :)
<imbrandon> Amaranth, i'll be there
<imbrandon> Amaranth, i leave in about 4 hours
<imbrandon> y?
* imbrandon is afk
<Amaranth> well, my plane doesn't land there until 11pm tomorrow
<Amaranth> i was mostly looking for a ride on sunday :)
<ivoks> raphink: hi
<raphink> hi ivoks :)
<raphink> how areyou?
<ivoks> great, you?
<ivoks> i've signed your key :)
<raphink> I'm good :)
<raphink> oh ok :)
<raphink> ivoks: how was your trip?
<ivoks> raphink: heh, we were at train station hour and half earlier than planned
<raphink> hehe
<ivoks> raphink: but trip was ok, we were sleeping most of it :)
<raphink> :)
<raphink> I almost missed my plane
<ivoks> hehe
<raphink> because I remembered I had to go to the end of the metra line
<raphink> but I took the wrong one
<raphink> lol
<ivoks> lol
<raphink> so when I got to the end of M2, I was searching for the bug
<raphink> bus
<raphink> and couldn't find it
<raphink> so I went to see people
<ivoks> lol
<raphink> and tried my best to ask 
<raphink> I was like
<raphink> errr Feriegy... bus Feriegyken
<raphink> hmm plane ...
<raphink> and obviously no one understood me
<ivoks> i think they would understand 'avion'
<raphink> eventually I had to go back to the center
<raphink> and take the other metro
<raphink> but that was fine cause I was still on time :)
<raphink> ivoks: did you see my pics?
<ivoks> raphink: no
<ivoks> i still didn't montage my film :/
<pygi> morning
<ivoks> hey pygi 
<pygi> sivang: ping?
<zyga> can anyone with intel based laptop (around pentium iii age) confirm that cpu scaling is not working?
<pygi> zyga: uh, no Pentium III here
<zyga> hmm
<zyga> what's up pygi :-)
<zyga> I haven't been here a while
<pygi> zyga: not much, hacking the libburn thingy and being sick :P
<pygi> what about you?
<zyga> hacking my private code, being sick and waiting for our baby :-)
<pygi> o joy ^_^
<zyga> I was looking at targeting a small spec to implement in the holiday
<pygi> zyga: implement multi session in libburn/libisofs :)
<zyga> link please?
<pygi> zyga: http://libburn.pykix.org
<pygi> it's not small anyway, I'm just joking ^_^
<zyga> ah
<zyga> I need something small to make it realistic :-)
<pygi> it requires quite a lot of work actually =)
<pygi> Hm, you familiar with python C api? :P
<zyga> virtually no
<zyga> I saw quite a lot of code but never wrote any
<pygi> aha :P
* pygi has a lot of tasks to assign in almost any language, so ^_^
<pygi> zyga: SO just say in what are you interested ^_^
<zyga> hmm, python 
<zyga> desktop integration 
<zyga> or new language integration
<zyga> or command line C tools
<zyga> that's what I really like
<pygi> zyga: what about working on genisofs? :P
<zyga> what is it?
<pygi> zyga: mkisofs compatibility layer
<pygi> zyga: http://libburn.pykix.org/wiki/GenIsoFs
<zyga> ah, like generate iso filesystem
<zyga> lots of lots of options
<pygi> the library does that for you actually :P
<pygi> indeed :P
<zyga> is it vaporware?
<pygi> what is vaporware? !
<zyga> well ... it it implemented yet?
<pygi> genisofs is just an idea
<pygi> the library is working
<zyga> right - so it's vaporware (vapor - ware) :-)
<zyga> if you want help with that do tell me more
<pygi> nothing is vaporware ^_^
<Whoopie> sladen: Hi, as hotkey-setup maintainer, do you know where Gnome sets the audio volume (in which source)? Is it possible to change its behaviour so that the up/down steps are constant and in steps from 0 till 14.
<sladen> Whoopie: if you file a bug report that the steps are not even, and that this is the most stupid idea ever invented, I would be MORE than happy to fix that bug permanently and with great avengance, for the that feature is a great unjust
<Treenaks> logarithmic volume controls!
<sladen> Treenaks: logarithmic would have sense, non-linear *soooo* does not
<Whoopie> for my thinkpad (which has a hardware mixer), even steps are needed so that software and hardware mixer are in sync.
<sladen> Whoopie: (shhh, that's actually a separate issue.  But yes, before the asymetric volume movement was introduced, that worked a little better
<sladen> Whoopie: long term plan to 'fix' the issue would be a tiny daemon that keeps the ALSA and ThinkPad mixers aligned
<sladen> Whoopie: Apple choose 16 steps, IBM 14 steps.  Whereas the gnome volume now has (a) too many steps in one direction (b) too few steps in the other direction
<Whoopie> sladen: I think, this non-linear control is NOT a good idea in general. And it also doesn't work well with my TP (and perhaps with other laptops).
<Whoopie> but as I understood, gnome uses percentage, not steps.
<sladen> Whoopie: the code is in 'gnome-settings-daemon', which is part of the 'gnome-control-center' package; built from the source package 'control-center'
<Whoopie> sladen: tpb keeps ALSA and thinkpad mixer aligned. but then, you don't have the gnome progressbar. Only this xosd.
<sladen> Whoopie: what actually should happen is that the volume handling be done at a lower-level than GNOME/KDE so that the volume works anywhere, not just with a GUI.  Then to have a separate Heads-Up-Display notifier
<Whoopie> sladen: that sounds good.
<sladen> Whoopie: fancy writing up a spec?
<Whoopie> sladen: never done before. Could you show me an example that I know what is needed to be done?
<sladen> Whoopie: first thing would be to start a wiki page under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ and dump all the ideas relating to the issue into that
<sladen> Whoopie: then from there you can link the idea into the specification tracker
<sladen> Whoopie: IIRC tpb actually talks to the OSS mixer
<Whoopie> sladen: yes, it talks to the OSS mixer, but it also works with ALSA.
<sladen> Whoopie: grep -ri alsa tpb-*    yields zero results
<Whoopie> sladen: ok, right. but it works here if I have the alsa oss modules loaded.
<Whoopie> sladen: snd_mixer_oss
<sladen> Whoopie: yeah, you'll probably also notice that the thinkpad-keys support in hotkey-setup conflicts with 'tpb' :)
<sladen> Whoopie: 'tpb' is several years past its sell-by date
<Whoopie> sladen: not if you circumvent it. ;)
<sladen> Whoopie: if you're needing to install 'tpb', that's a bug, and needs fixing
<Whoopie> sladen: the bug is gnome's volume handling. with tpb, I get my favored behaviour that hardware and software mixer are in sync.
<sladen> Whoopie: agreed.  that needs making work such it's sensible _without_ tpb
<Whoopie> sladen: right. but for edgy, it's impossible now. And bug 39098 was rejected where the TP user asked for a solution.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39098 in control-center "thinkpad: volume button weighting" [Medium,Rejected]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39098
<sladen> Whoopie: I've demangled those bug reports so that the two issues are separate again (bug #39098 vs. bug #45743 )
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39098 in control-center "thinkpad: hardware and software audio mixer are not syncronised" [Medium,Rejected]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39098
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 45743 in control-center "g-s-d Uneven volume hotkey weighting" [Wishlist,Rejected]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/45743
<pygi> sivang: whenever you come here, please ping me ^_^
<Kream> i
<Kream> hi all 
<Kream> i'm hacking on the ubuntu live cd, trying to make my own. I had a query about casper. Specifically, how do I pass an option to it in isolinux.cfg that will allow me to boot to a console on the LiveCDis that OT here ?
<simira> Kream: the people who could probably give the best answers are travelling to San Francisco today, and not much online. Try to send an email, or try again here on monday
<Hobbsee> hey simira 
<Kream> simira:  thank you. can you tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree ( trying to find the casper docs) ?
<simira> Kream: I have no idea :)
<simira> Hobbsee: hi there. Not conference this time either?
<Kream> well, thanks anyway
<Hobbsee> simira: nope, exams
<simira> Hobbsee: hoorah
<giftnudel> pygi: is there a possibility to get cd information (like nr of tracks, appendable, free space or so) using libburn?
<pygi> giftnudel: some info is possible to get, yes
<giftnudel> pygi: as you probably know (or not) I'm working with sivan on hubackup, so I was curious if something like dvd+rw-mediainfo was possible for cds too?
<pygi> giftnudel: we won't use libburn for HUB yet :) Time for that will come :)
<giftnudel> pygi: it displays a lot of very useful information without needing to have to lock the dvd (or unmount it)
<giftnudel> pygi: so that's why I was curious
<pygi> giftnudel: most important feature we currently lack is multi-session support ^_^
<Hobbsee> simira: indeed.  i'm hoping MV+1 though
<pygi> giftnudel: you could try using cdrskin --atip (if I'm not mistaken) to see what you can get
<giftnudel> pygi: yes, I'm just asking if it was possible to do that without needing to unmount the disc
<giftnudel> because cdrecord needs to unmount it
* pygi isn't sure, sorry ^_^
<pygi> but I don't think we unmount disc really
<giftnudel> pygi: I can't see your /me message, because of a translation bug, could you repeat it without me? :)
<sivang> hello all :)
<sivang> good afternoon
<giftnudel> hi sivang
<sivang> giftnudel: Hi Martin!
<pygi> giftnudel: it's nothing important :P
<pygi> I don't think we unmount the disc when getting info
<giftnudel> pygi: that's good
<sivang> pygi: hi, yoou pinged me , wanna continue on /query ?
<pygi> sivang: sure, but only if you have time? 
<pygi> giftnudel: right, but note I'm sick so my brain might be half-dead :P
<sivang> pygi: I have a couple of minutes
* sivang is just checking emails and stuff
<pygi> sivang: oh, that won't help much :P
<giftnudel> pygi: well, if I need to unmount the drive to get the information, I will still make you responsible :)
<pygi> giftnudel: ergh, we still don't have python bindings available. For that make me responsible :P
<giftnudel> pygi: ok, will do
<pygi> giftnudel: if you are familiar with python C api you can help tho :P
<giftnudel> pygi: well, I know a little bit about how to do such things, but I haven't a) coded much in C, and b) not created python bindings before
<giftnudel> pygi: oh, and btw, you need rw access to the drive with cdrskin, so I need to unmount it, too
<pygi> giftnudel: ah, ofcourse you need rw access :P
<giftnudel> pygi: I would really like to know if that was possible without unmounting it, since you only need to read information from the disc
<Kream> i'm hacking on the ubuntu live cd, trying to make my own. In place of the "safe graphics mode" I want a menu option that will not start the gui, but will place me on the console. I know I would have to edit isolinux/isolinux.cfg . is it as simple as appending init=/bin/bash to the boot line?
<bhale> appending single might be nicer than /bin/bash
<Kream> i'm cool with that.
<bhale> worth a try
<Kream> can someone take a look at the file http://191a.net/isolinux.cfg and tell me what the default line should be changed to?
<Kream> bhale ^^ ?
<Kream> .... ramdisk_size=1048576 root=/dev/ram rw single ?
<Kream> or rather, 
<Kream> .... ramdisk_size=1048576 root=/dev/ram rw single -- ?
<bhale> probably
<Kream> thanks.
<bhale> you would have to try it
<Kream> obviously :)
<bhale> ive never done this, it jsut seems the correct way :)
<Kream> so it does. 
<Kream> and no one here to gainsay it 
<pygi> sivang: ping :P
* Mez -> food
<zul> hey
<dudanogueira> hello there! im recording the klettres sounds for pt-br, and would like to test them. So i want to know where the files are, for making a similar structure and to test my recordings. can anyone help me with this task?
<dudanogueira> i cant find the klettres files =(
<ogra> dudanogueira, i guess #kubuntu-devel is a better channel for that question
<ogra> (or #kubuntu or whatever they use)
<dudanogueira> oh, great :)
#ubuntu-devel 2006-11-05
<Burgundavia> desrt: you around?
<bhale> hi Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> I am unable to get on irc.gimp.ca
<Burgundavia> are you having issues with gimpnet?
<bhale> no
<Burgundavia> hmm
<bhale> -|- gnome: irc.gnome.org:6667 ()
<bhale> oops
<Burgundavia> ok, attempting to close gimpnet crashed x-g
<wasabi_> so here i am at wild palms
<wasabi_> who else is present? ;)
<wasabi_> gah n770 xchat
<evand> I'm here
<wasabi_> me->lobby
<wasabi_> metrofree is a flakey
<wasabi_> a bit
<evand> the wifi service? yeah, i noticed that as well
<Burgundavia> evand: greets
<jsgotangco> hi
<desrt> where is everyone?
<desrt> is there #-summit or such?
<crimsun> desrt: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-November/000218.html
<desrt> crimsun; are you here?
<crimsun> desrt: "here" being in Mtn View, CA? If so, no.
<desrt> shame :(
<wasabi_> im "here"
<jsgotangco> nice
<wasabi_> nobody on irc it seems
<wasabi_> guees they're all sitting in the lobby
<jsgotangco> :(
<neuralis> i'm here and starved; need to go track down a place to eat
<desrt> me too
<desrt> meet me... [somewhere] ?
<wasabi_> haha
<wasabi_> i ate at the persian place down the street
<desrt> hmm
<desrt> what do they have?
<wasabi_> persian food.
<wasabi_> falaffal, that kinda stuff.
<desrt> that's a pretty wide catagory :)
<wasabi_> i had this lental+eggplant thing
<desrt> oh. that's lebanese
<desrt> there are a lot of people who are not here :(
* Ng in his room ;)
<wasabi_> as in not coming or not here yet?
<wasabi_> im in my room too. watching tv.
<wasabi_> YAY FOR IRC
<desrt> anyone know if sebuild and sebuild jr. are here?
<jsgotangco> where are you guys staying?
<wasabi_> "the hotel"
<desrt> google:wild palms hotel
<jsgotangco> ahh nice
<wasabi_> okay lets head towards the lobby or something
<desrt> ok
<wasabi_> i have to put cloths on my gf first. hold on.
<desrt> do you figure the rooms are safe nough to leave shit in?
<wasabi_> oh yeah. totally.
<Ng> desrt: there are safes in the wardrobes
<desrt> if my laptop goes missing it's on you
<desrt> oh.  sweet!
<wasabi_> there's a safe in yoru closet.
<jsgotangco> haha
<wasabi_> yeah
<Ng> big enough for not-unreasonably-large laptops at least
<neuralis> but do you get wifi reception in the safe?
<TheMuso> hahaha
<desrt> heh
<desrt> or recharging
* desrt safes some other valuables
<wasabi_> i barely get wifi reception outside the safe
<wasabi_> I have one bar on nm.
<Ng> no eth cable?
<wasabi_> This metrowifi thing is awesome though
<wasabi_> free wifi all over the city
<neuralis> i recommend congregating on front of a specific room, otherwise we'll need to play the identification game if we meet next to a bunch of other people
<neuralis> s/on front/in front/
<desrt> metrowifi is EVIL
<wasabi_> I'm a red head in a blue shirt.
<wasabi_> haha
<desrt> thank god for my VPN connection
<wasabi_> With the hot girl.
<desrt> bye bye evilproxy
<wasabi_> We need name badges.
<wasabi_> desrt:  room #? we can go there. =0
<jdub> have a fun week dudes :-)
<wasabi_> jdub: =(
<jsgotangco> hehehe
<Ng> wasabi_: you get name badges tomorrow
<jsgotangco> jdub: dude!
<neuralis> wasabi_, desrt: 1292 in 10 minutes?
* TheMuso notes how well the name badges worked with him.
<wasabi_> sure that works.
<wasabi_> 1292, building 1 floor 2?
<jsgotangco> TheMuso: hahaha
<neuralis> wasabi_: standard first floor (up one flight of stairs)
<wasabi_> oh
<wasabi_> i guess i don't yet understand the numbers
<wasabi_> okay heading out
<wasabi_> 1292 here i come heh
<evand> Burgundavia: howdy.  Are you attending the summit?
<Burgundavia> sadly, nope
<evand> damn, I was hoping to touch base with you
<Burgundavia> so was I
<Burgundavia> I might be there for later in the week, but that is very iffy at this poing
<evand> ok
<YokoZar> Ok, I just found out about the conference in mountainview tomorrow, but can only go for Sunday.  I'd like to talk about Wine...what can I do?
<neuralis> YokoZar: it's unlikely you can get a spec in and scheduled for tomorrow at this point; i would recommend showing up and just grabbing the people you want to talk to over a meal or such
<YokoZar> Also, I hear Google is offering us free food from their world class cafeteria.  True?
* StevenK waves to mpt.
* Mez waves at StevenK 
* StevenK waves back
* TheMuso waves to StevenK 
* _ion waves to all, excluding self
<sivang> morning
<ubuntu_demon> hey
<ubuntu_demon> We arrived at the hotel :)
<jsgotangco> hi
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<jsgotangco> have a nice time
<jsgotangco> i couldn't come this time, it would have been nice to see you again
<ubuntu_demon> jsgotangco: thanks :)
<ubuntu_demon> jsgotangco: too bad you couldn't come :(
<ubuntu_demon> jsgotangco: but maybe we'll meet at some future UDS someday
<jsgotangco> there's always feisty+1 planning ;)
<ubuntu_demon> :)
<ubuntu_demon> It took me 28 hours of travelling and delays to get here
<jsgotangco> sucks to be in a plane for more than a day huh
<jsgotangco> especially its your first time ;)
<ubuntu_demon> we mostly sat at airports
<ubuntu_demon> the actual flying time was about 15 hours
<TheMuso> ubuntu_demon: sucks doesn't it.
<ubuntu_demon> we missed the connection from Houston to San Fransisco
* TheMuso will not forget his flight home in a hurry.
<jsgotangco> heh i remember in Paris, I almost missed my flight in a few minutes
<ubuntu_demon> TheMuso: flying was nice but the waiting at the airports wasn't
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: wow
<ubuntu_demon> jsgotangco: you got lucky then :)
<TheMuso> Coming home, I flew Parris to Dubai, and from Dubai back to Sydney, which was 13 hours.
<TheMuso> That flight alone really sucked.
<jsgotangco> I remember me and ubuntu_demon were in the same cab
<ubuntu_demon> jsgotangco: I remember that too ;)
<ubuntu_demon> TheMuso: did we meet in Paris ? what's your normal name ?
<TheMuso> ubuntu_demon: I don't think we did. My name is Luke.
<ubuntu_demon> TheMuso: But you was present at UDS Paris ?
<ubuntu_demon> TheMuso: I'm Roald
<TheMuso> Yes I was.
<TheMuso> ubuntu_demon: I know.
<TheMuso> But I am sure we didn't meat in person.
<jsgotangco> oh he's one big meat for sure
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: lol
<ubuntu_demon> TheMuso: what's your launchpad nick ?
<TheMuso> ubuntu_demon: themuso
<ubuntu_demon> TheMuso: I did meet Henrik. So we didn't meet ?
<TheMuso> Not as far as I remember.
<ubuntu_demon> TheMuso: same here :)
<jsgotangco> heh a week is not really enough to meet and talk with everyone in a summit
<TheMuso> jsgotangco: Damn right./
<jsgotangco> unless you get drunk all night
<TheMuso> I'm feeling saddened not to be there at this one though, after the enjoyment of Parris.
<ubuntu_demon> Paris was great.
<sladen> TheMuso: have you attempted to get VoIP working yet?
<TheMuso> sladen: I already have an ekiga account set up from a few weeks back.
<TheMuso> But there aren't many accessibility specs this time round.
<TheMuso> Only one or two.
<jsgotangco> sladen: it would be shocking to know if you're not going there :)
<ubuntu_demon> I don't have time to test VOIP now. I'm going to sleep to be able to get up tomorrow morning. Good night!
<sladen> TheMuso: they've changed the design, you'll need to get a 'voip.canonical.com' account for the streams
<sladen> jsgotangco: would be shocking wouldn't it.  I haven't booked anything (yet)
<ogra> sleep is overrated
<jsgotangco> haha
<sladen> jsgotangco: although it did cross my mind yesterday
<jsgotangco> "sleep is for the weak"
<ubuntu_demon> :p
<ubuntu_demon> bye!
* highvoltage is weak then
<ogra> somehow this place feels like ubuntu-disneyland
<sivang> ogra: heh
<Burgundavia> ogra: ubuntu disneyland?
<jsgotangco> hahaha
<ogra> you should see the hotel
<Amaranth> GoogleWifi ftw
<BHSPitLappy> what?
<Amaranth> it's got a better signal than my hotel's wifi
<BHSPitLappy> where are you?
<Amaranth> quality inn
<Amaranth> right down the freeway from google
<ogra> Amaranth, your are here ????
<Amaranth> ogra: yes :)
<Amaranth> this place is huge... :P
<Amaranth> my city has 80,000 people :)
<ogra> \o/
<Amaranth> my ears still won't pop :/
<BHSPitLappy> use a hammer
<sivang> ogra: google have a hotel as well? :)
<ogra> sivang, no, its the wilr palms hotel in sunnyvale 
<pygi> hey ogra ^_^
* Amaranth probably isn't going to sleep much tonight
<ivoks> hi ogra and pygi :)
<sivang> hey ivoks
<ivoks> hi sivang 
<Amaranth> i think ajmitch is in this hotel
<lastnode> Amaranth, want something to kill some time? :-)
<Amaranth> heh, what?
<ivoks> pih... everybody is at google.. pih... big deal :)
<jsgotangco> haha
* Amaranth is going to try to get his SoC tour of google
<lastnode> Amaranth, have a look at - http://upstreamdev.org/wiki/Releases/0.1.0 , and test the .debs for us :-)
<Amaranth> hehe
<pygi> ogra: any chance of answer to yesterdays questions before the connection dropped? :P
<sivang> Amaranth: SoC tour of google? :)
<Amaranth> yeah
* sivang tries to guess what that means.
<Amaranth> Summer of Code
<ivoks> lol
<sivang> Amaranth: heh, I know what SoC is, do they have GoogleTours now? ;>
<jsgotangco> ahaha
<Amaranth> hehe
<jsgotangco> seems to be a good sprint for edubuntu now
<Amaranth> damn ears
<Amaranth> everything sounds like it's really far away
<Administrator__> will update-grub work, when invoked within a chroot env?
<prada> I am trying to install Ubuntu on a second HDD. During the Partition, I get an error that says "Unable to instal selected Kernel"
<Hobbsee> Administrator__: is grub even installed in a chroot environment?
<Administrator__> Hobbsee, it does the following:
<Administrator__>  I'm creating a recovery cd, ( boot > restore partition table > mkfs > mount > restore with big tarball) so I assuming that someone will mess up grub and mbr(worst case scenario), I was wondering if just backing up the mbr with dd would be sufficient?
<Administrator__> or update-grub
<Hobbsee> no idea, sorry
<Administrator__> how does the ubuntu-installer install grub ?
<prada> Hobbsee?
<Hobbsee> pass
<prada> Huh?
<prada> Hey, there are not many girls that Use Linux. Be nice to the ones that try to
<Hobbsee> sure, i am one :)
<Hobbsee> but i dont know
<Treenaks> Administrator__: grub-install :)
<geser> Administrator__: update-grub updates only the menu.lst, to install grub use grub-install or the grub shell
<prada> you are a girl
<jsgotangco> haha
<tfheen> hiya jsgotangco 
<sivang> hey tfheen, 'sup?
<Administrator__> Well guys, does one of you know how the ubuntu installer solves this?
<jsgotangco> hey tfheen how's mountain view
<tfheen> sivang: it's half past two in the night, but my internal clock thinks it's 11:30, so sleeping is hard.
<Treenaks> Administrator__: it just calls grub-install, afaik
<jsgotangco> its hard to live in the past when you are from the future
<tfheen> jsgotangco: got in about 12 hours ago, half of which I've spent in bed, sleeping.
<TheMuso> Heh gotta love that jet lag.
<tfheen> I'm going to try to get some sleep in a little bit
<Hobbsee> prada: yes
<Hobbsee> hey tfheen 
<Administrator__> Treenaks, where does one get it's source?
<Hobbsee> right.  it must be time for some merging.  feisty pbuilder is created
<Hobbsee> painlessly, even
<Treenaks> Administrator__: of the installer? apt-get source casper, I guess
<tfheen> the live installer is ubiquity, not casper.
<Treenaks> oh wait
<tfheen> casper is the live cd framework
<prada> Saddam has been found quilty...Sentence to death..
<prada> just watching the news
<Treenaks> prada: off-topic. please take it to a news channel.
<tfheen> prada: that is hardly on-topic for this channel
<Treenaks> tfheen: ah! THAT's the difference! :)
<prada> well i need help
<prada> i have ask
<prada> death by hanging
<sivang> tfheen: oh dear, try to see if they have late night jacuzzi sessions, so you could go and relax there :)
<tfheen> sivang: 0600-2230, iirc
<sivang> tfheen: ah, crap, anyway take care
<prada> I am trying to install Ubuntu on a second HDD. During the Partition, I get an error that says "Unable to instal selected Kernel"
<sivang> tfheen: I can feel the sadness feeling not being able to be there and loose sleep with you :)
<jsgotangco> hehe
<TheMuso> sivang: Likewise.
* sivang hugs TheMuso
<tfheen> sivang: heh. :-)
<tfheen> prada: this channel is not for support questions, I'm sorry.
<prada> well u helped build the crap
<prada> figured u would know
<tfheen> whether I or anybody know how to fix it or not is irrelevant; it's not appropriate for this channel.
<prada> who are you tfheen?
<prada> what have u done so great for 
<prada> unbuntu
<crimsun> prada: this is becoming off-topic. See his LP page: https://launchpad.net/people/tfheen
<prada> Ubuntu
<Treenaks> prada: Stop trolling, please.
<tfheen> prada: I'm the ubuntu release manager as well as the primary maintainer of casper and the amd64 port.  Why?
<prada> Stop thinking you are better than everyone else
<crimsun> why are you being defensive? The topic clearly notes this channel is not used for support.
<prada> I would have left a long time ago..if I got an answer
<tfheen> prada: uh?  I'm telling you you are offtopic for this channel.  That has nothing to do with "being better" than anybody else (which is a silly thing to say anyway)
<prada> Kinda dumb when you have to start to beg for help....How old is everyone in this room
<jsgotangco> oh boy
<jsgotangco> see topic!
<Treenaks> prada: this is not a supoprt channel, if you want help, it's better to just go to #ubuntu and ask there.
<prada> Treenaks!!!!! trolling is stretching it...TRUST ME. this is the last place I would consider a blast to be
<pygi> prada: please stop this campaign of non-sense. Just read the topic.
<prada> Pygi! how old are you
<pygi> prada: now tell me what the age has to do with anything? I'm a little baby :)
<prada> figured
<prada> this is so dumb....I am starting to think no one knows anyway...Insecure people...thinking they have POWER over a channel.hahah...this is the only place you have it...so all of u in here keep on throwing the weight around, most likely its lard not power
<Hobbsee> prada: have you heard of the ubuntu developer summit?
<Hobbsee> prada: right now, that's where a lot of the developers are going, including the ones who know the answer to your question
<Hobbsee> prada: and right now, it's the middle of the night there, and they're all asleep
<pygi> prada: and once again, this is *NOT* a support channel
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<prada> Shutup pigy
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+b *!n=chatzill@*.satx.res.rr.com]  by Hobbsee
* prada was kicked off #ubuntu-devel by Hobbsee (Hobbsee)
<tfheen> Hobbsee: thanks.
<Hobbsee> tfheen: not a problem
<tfheen> but isn't that ban a bit wide?  Catching all chatzilla users from satx.res.rr.com?
<Hobbsee> aww bugger, i just installed edgy with the wrong keymap
<tfheen> I guess we can remove it in a bit
<Hobbsee> tfheen: yeah, it was.  i'm not in my normal client
<Hobbsee> tfheen: when i am, i'll narrow it down a bit, if at all possible
* Hobbsee wasnt sure what /kickban would do, actually
<Burgundavia> Hobbsee: isn
<Burgundavia> isn't irc wonderfully arcane?
<Hobbsee> Burgundavia: haha.  irssi si
<Hobbsee> *is
<Burgundavia> all of irc is
<Spads> Hobbsee: You may enjoy /knockout (default alias /kn), as that unbans people after a short cooling off period
<Hobbsee> that being said, i do like +d bans
<Hobbsee> Spads: nice!
<Spads> Hobbsee: It's apparently been in irssi for a long while, but I only discovered it last year
<Hobbsee> Spads: :)
<Hobbsee> Spads: i prefer to +d, but i cant in this case
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-b *!n=chatzill@*.satx.res.rr.com]  by Hobbsee
<Spads> Hobbsee: what's a +d?
<Hobbsee> Spads: a very special ban :)
<Hobbsee> real name ban
<mc44> is it going to be possible to join the UDS VOIP sessions even if I dont have a microphone (obviously I wont be able to talk :)?
<Hobbsee> mc44: it was last time.  what are we using this time?
<Hobbsee> Spads: ^
<mc44> Hobbsee: Ekiga I belive
<Spads> SIP
<Hobbsee> oh nich
<Hobbsee> *nice!
* Hobbsee runs the install again, with the correct language this time
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o Hobbsee]  by ChanServ
<Hobbsee> yay for manual ops stuff :)
<jsgotangco> its a shame i'll be sleeping while the summit starts
<Hobbsee> jsgotangco: indeed.  same problem here, of course.  it'd be far better if the world was flat
* Hobbsee pedals faster
<Spads> We actually recommend twinkle
<luisbg> what time is it right now in local time of the summit?
<Spads> Sun Nov  5 03:37:46 PST 2006
<mc44> Spads: are you around to create VOIP accounts now?
<Spads> mc44: briefly, yes
<Hobbsee> tfheen: what's the time there?
<tfheen> Hobbsee: what Spads said; 03:38
<Hobbsee> oh, missed it, sorry
* Hobbsee curses archaic clients, and small fonts :P
<luisbg> so 5 and half hours for the summit to start?
<Hobbsee> Spads: how do we get VOIP accounts to participate?
<tfheen> luisbg: something like that, yes.
<Hobbsee> seeing as i missed that too, previously
<tfheen> I should probably try to catch a bit of sleep
<Hobbsee> tfheen: indeed.
* Hobbsee hands tfheen a large rock
<luisbg> is there going to be activity here in irc...or since everybody can talk in person irc will be desertic?
<jsgotangco> luisbg: there will be some, but most of the time it'll be chatter instead of actualy summit proceedings
* Hobbsee wonders what info you have to provide for VOIP
<luisbg> jsgotangco, ok
<Spads> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperSummitMountainView/Participate
<Spads> I'm around to make accounts now, but I will be leaving at some point
<highvoltage> Spads: can I get an account?
<Spads> highvoltage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperSummitMountainView/Participate
<highvoltage> oops, I won't be able to test now, I think I'll ask on -sysadmin a bit later
<highvoltage> (don't have a mic on this laptop)
<Spads> ok
<Spads> we need to test when you get your account
* jsgotangco reads
<jsgotangco> ahh an account needs to be created
<bddebian> Howdy
<pygi> hey bddebian :)
<bddebian> Morning pygi
<sivang> hmm, so LP already has feisty in, is it already open to uploads?
<bmonty> not yet
<sivang> okay, cool, just wanted to make sure I'm not missing the merge fun
<bmonty> there was a post on that on ubuntu-devel a couple days ago
<ajmitch> morning all
<pygi> hey ajmitch 
<dsas> people are already filing sync requests though..
<bmonty> hey ajmitch
<sivang> dsas: for main or universe?
<dsas> universe are the only ones I've noticed get filed so far.
<ajmitch> sivang: for both, where there are changes to be dropped
<sivang> ajmitch: I see
<evand> good morning
<pygi> hey evand 
<evand> howdy
<ajmitch> morning mpt, how's the hotel?
<zul> hey
<mpt> ajmitch, pretty and adequate
<sivang> discussions start on Monday right?
<mpt> This morning, I think
<ajmitch> yeah, we're walking to google after breakfast
<mpt> "the summit [will]  commence @ 09.00hrs on Sunday 5th November"
<zul> schedule is up i think
<ajmitch> morning zul 
<Amaranth> ajmitch: what hotel are you in?
<ajmitch> Amaranth: quality inn, room 130
<Amaranth> ajmitch: room 118
<ajmitch> best part about it - everyone snores in here :)
* ajmitch walks into the hallway
<Amaranth> heh
<Amaranth> it's a _long_ hallway
* sivang wonders how voip users will know which number to dial to participate in discussions
<stgraber> we know that will be number from 5001 to 5016, the rest we don't :)
<sivang> ajmitch: this is the canonical hotel as well ?
<stgraber> we can try to join all of them one by one and ask :)
<wasabi_> ajmitch: quality inn?
<wasabi_> im at the wild palms
<zul> ditto
<Amaranth> he actually walked down the hall :P
<ajmitch> wasabi_: yep
<Amaranth> ajmitch: are you on GoogleWifi?
<ajmitch> sivang: no, it's not
<Amaranth> i get better signal with them then the hotel wifi
<fabbione> GOOD MORNING SFO!
<ajmitch> Amaranth: poor signal here with googlewifi
<zul> hey fabbione 
<ajmitch> morning fabbione 
<Amaranth> 54% with google, something less with hotel's
<wasabi_> it's like 7am or something bleh
<Amaranth> heh
<Amaranth> i didn't get to bed until 2am
<zul> heh breakfash in half-hourish
<wasabi_> yeah whens that startr?
<Amaranth> didn't get here until after midnight, damn trains
<wasabi_> me and desrt and some brit guy went and got drunk last night
<Amaranth> heh
<Amaranth> Figures. :P
<mconnor> man, where can you get drunk in Sunnyvale?
<wasabi_> down the street, biker bar.
<wasabi_> heh
<mconnor> I will keep that in mind next week!
<mconnor> assuming I don't just get drunk at the office
<Amaranth> ajmitch: google maps says we're 2.9 miles (4.6km) away
<wasabi_> away from what?
<wasabi_> i was just thinking yall could head tot he hotel, and grab the shuttle. save some distance
<Amaranth> nope, wild palms is further away
<wasabi_> ahh
<Amaranth> yeah, wild palms is 7 miles away
<Amaranth> in the opposite direction
<wasabi_> so what time do the shuttles get here? my email is down. =(
<zul> 8:30ish i think
<fabbione> wasabi: from wild palms?
<wasabi_> yeah
* Amaranth heads for a shower
<fabbione> the first bus leaves at 8
<fabbione> the last one at 8:30
<wasabi_> oh ok
<fabbione> but i am pretty sure we need to spread across busses
<fabbione> if we show all up at 8:30 we won't fit
<wasabi_> yeah there's a lot of people here
<ogra> *YAWN*
<ogra> morning
<wasabi_> hmm. wish my laptop coudl change its time on it's own.
<ajmitch> morning ogra
<ogra> hey ajmitch 
* stgraber hopes the BOFs he's interested in won't be at more than 15pm :) otherwise that will be really hard to wake up the day after :)
<Amaranth> haha
<Amaranth> i found the usb cable for my ipod
<Amaranth> i thought i had forgotten it
<Amaranth> but wait, it gets funnier
<Amaranth> I forgot the iPod.
<stgraber> :)
<jsgotangco> lol
<Amaranth> time for breakfast
<arf`> ouch
<arf`> where is the boss, please? =)
<pygi> arf`, there is no bosses around here
<pygi> are no
<arf`> =)
<arf`> I know
<arf`> pygi: not for support, but strange question
<arf`> didn't know where to ask
<arf`> why is there a 127.0.1.1 = hostname in /etc/hosts?
<arf`> I desperate, nobody knows :(
<netpython> bait maybe:P
<bmonty> arf`: I don't know the answer, but a google search for "127.0.1.1" gets a lot of hits...might be something there
<arf`> I searched
<bmonty> if you don't like it, you could always remove it
<arf`> I'm coming here as last chance
<arf`> bmonty: ok, but removing won't explain :)
<netpython> is xorg statically linked in ubuntu?
<bmonty> arf`: true
<arf`> I've searched, I've asked, I wan't to know :)
<minghua> arf`: the 127.0.1.1 is something inherited from debian
<minghua> arf`: as far as I know debian has reverted that change now
<minghua> 127.0.1.1 is not different from 127.0.0.1 anyway
<ivoks> it's not
<arf`> minghua: yeah, more surprising to me
<ivoks> 127.0.45.67 or 127.4.8.3 or 127.0.0.1 or 127.0.1.1 - it's all the same
<arf`> ivoks, exactly, so why?
<ivoks> name resolving
<arf`> if no use... why
<arf`> if use, what?
<minghua> oh, probably debian hasn't reverted the change
<arf`> minghua: I've never seen that with debian for the last 6 years...
<ivoks> let's say box is hostname of your machine
<minghua> it only appears in certain cases, which explain why I don't have it in the current computer
<minghua> arf`: it's a quite recent change
<minghua> debian bug #316099 for those interested
<ivoks> you have different addresses for localhost and box
<Ubugtu> Debian bug 316099 in netcfg "Please give system hostname IP address 127.0.1.1" [Unknown,Closed]  http://bugs.debian.org/316099
<arf`> wow
<minghua> (the correct way to google is "127.0.1.1 site:lists.debian.org" BTW :-)
<arf`> as I didn't saw in debian, I didn't seek so hard by this way
<arf`> (sorry if strange english...)
<arf`> yeeapah
<minghua> arf`: I didn't blame you. :-)  I searched this way because I remember seeing this discussion on debian-boot list
<arf`> :)
<arf`> thousand kiss for freeing me
<arf`> ok, I'm going to let you to better matter, thanks ! Lights on you :)
* cjwatson notices that feisty is now set to DEVELOPMENT in LP
<pygi> yay :)
<iwj> Oops, it seems I forgot to set myself away before departing.
<jsgotangco> heh
* sladen hands iwj screen-away.pl
<cjwatson> Keybuk: are the sync ponies fed and watered?
<highvoltage> :)
<poningru> anyone know how I can listen to the speeches?
<bmonty> poningru: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperSummitMountainView/Participate
<highvoltage> strange. when don't remember making that smiley face.
<Keybuk> cjwatson: they are champing at their bits
<Keybuk> cjwatson: has a rubber duck been taken to feisty?
<highvoltage> cjwatson: are you busy? I'd like to ask your opinion on something
<infinity> Ooo, someone opened feisty while I was travelling and/or sleeping.
<infinity> Yay.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: apparently
<pitti> yay
<cjwatson> highvoltage: in the opening session at UDS
<Keybuk> Ok, SYNCING NOW!
<cjwatson> highvoltage: feel free to ask and I'll respond when I can
* infinity refreshes the chroots for kicks.
<highvoltage> cjwatson: ok. I asked ogra and he said I should ask you/Kamion instead. I work on an edubuntu derivative, and some local people weren't happy at the idea that we use the live cd infrastructure, since it make the minimal requirements much higher, haveing to run a desktop and an installer
<pitti> ouch, someone forgot to apply the quiescing flag for the langpacks
<cjwatson> highvoltage: you can always just base on the alternate install CD instead
<highvoltage> cjwatson: so I wrote a little python script with a glade interface that lets the user choose between the live cd session, and the installer, which means that they don't have to log in to gnome to start ubiquity
<highvoltage> cjwatson: crude screenshot: http://photos.jonathancarter.co.za/screenshots/dvd
<highvoltage> cjwatson: my question is, do you think it might be likely that something like that could make it into ubuntu if it's nicely polished up?
<cjwatson> highvoltage: neat, but shouldn't it be integrated into the gdm login screen instead?
<highvoltage> you can use ubiquity without an x-session-manager on a pc with 128MB quite comfortably
<cjwatson> if it were in gdm, we could easily just turn off autologin on the live CD
<highvoltage> cjwatson: that might be a better option, then the user could choose there. strange that I didn't consider that :) at least this method gives them a nice interface.
<highvoltage> cjwatson: that's actually a brilliant idea, I think I'll investigate that
<cjwatson> cool
<highvoltage> cjwatson: thank you for your time and willingness to share your wisdom
<BlackSkad> #ubuntu-motu
<ogra> Seveas, what was the name of the conf channel ?
<Seveas> #udsmtv
<ogra> ah, thx
<Seveas> I just poked freenode staff, they won't be blocking us
<ogra> great, ta
<sivang> hmm, I wonder if someone could tell keybuk to talk a little bit slower ;)
<Keybuk> sivang: I never talk slowly :p
<lifeless> Keybuk: ^
<sivang> Keybuk: true, but it was easier for me to understand as a non native when I was able to read your lips :-p
<siretart> what time is it in mountain view currently?
<Spads> Sun Nov  5 10:16:11 PST 2006
<Spads> at the shell you can type "TZ=US/Pacific date"
<siretart> thanks!
<Whoopie> doko: we solved the issue with the python-httplib2 package by adding XB-Python-Version. But I thought it's not needed for python-support.
* Mez -> food
<infinity> pitti: gnome-mount going to universe for now?
* Mez -> work
<lifeless> fabbione: http://www.bononia.it/~zack/blog//posts/versioning_etc_w_bzr.html
<fabbione> lifeless: yeah the same i did ask ages ago
<lifeless> fabbione: done for you now :)
<fabbione> lifeless: slacker
<lifeless> pffft, I did describe the solution for you ;)
<fabbione> lifeless: we knew the solution.. we needed the code :)
<lifeless> Riddell: is the source for hwdb-client in bzr ? If not, is the edgy client the current HEAD I should import
<Riddell> lifeless: yes
<lifeless> to which ?!
<Riddell> lifeless: see launchpad/products/hwdb I think
<tmarble> mdz: will you prepare schedules for the entire week, or simply for each day at a time?
<mdz> tmarble: the latter
<tmarble> mdz: ok, thanks
* pygi is interested whetever mdz managed to squeeze LTSP burning in schedule?
<lifeless> Riddell: no bzr souce listed. 
<lifeless> Riddell: I can upload the current package as a bzr branch if you like
<Riddell> lifeless: http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/bzr/hwdb/
<Riddell> it's not on the supermirror I forgot
<lifeless> Riddell: bzr register-branch!
<Riddell> lifeless: go ahead :)
<lifeless> Riddell: its a bzr command, one you can run :)
<cjwatson> tmarble: (you can't tell what needs to be scheduled for more discussion until you've held the first round of discussion)
<tmarble> cjwatson: thanks... yes we've had several people that have signed up as Essential w/incorrect attendance times --  trying to unwind that now
<sladen> mdz: are you basically going to process the specs in order of priority from the top?
<sladen> mdz: it would be useful to have a vague idea when (if) certain BoFs are going to be scheduled or skipped (even if they're subject to change)
<stgraber> mdz: Is that possible to generate the schedule for everyone who subscribed to at least one BOF and not only the ones who are at MountainView ? (for VOIP people)
<lifeless> Riddell: uhm, why are the man pages in debian/ ? 
* lifeless is confounded
<Riddell> lifeless: it was like that when i found it, ask ogra
<lifeless> ok, so fine to fix :)
<lifeless> Riddell: I'm renaming the product to hwdb-client ok? (to match the source package)
<lifeless> Riddell: its currently hwdb-gui, which makes no sense at all
<lifeless> ogra_: ^
<cjwatson> sladen: the scheduler works in order of priority, so low and undefined ones will only be scheduled if the scheduler runs out of things to do
<Riddell> lifeless: that's the gtk version, I guess ogra started with the server and named the gui as something else
<lifeless> Riddell: nope its all
<lifeless> all the client side stuff I mean
<Riddell> lifeless: the kde part is hwdb-kde
<lifeless> no, same source package
<lifeless> same source == same product
<Riddell> oh, I see
<lifeless> apt-cache show hwdb-client-kde -> source: hwdb-client
<lifeless> so the lp product should be either hwdb, or hwdb-client, not hwdb-gui.
<Riddell> Reistrant Andrey Nauman
<Riddell> no idea who he is
<lifeless> thats fixable. let me:)
<lifeless> ubuntu-core-dev ?
<Riddell> yep
<lifeless> done
<lifeless> hmm, should use malone
<lifeless> and will need rosetta eventually.
<Riddell> now actually
<Riddell> since the KDE version has translations
<lifeless> is your branch the most active one?  or shoud I setup a shared team branch ?
<lifeless> hmm, actually, I'm not in -core-dev, so you can push up a team shared branch
<Riddell> lifeless: yes, my branch is up to date with the edgy package
<lifeless> ok, enabled for rosetta.
<lifeless> you can upload the pot anytime ;)
<Riddell> lifeless: well it's already translated in rosetta as part of ubuntu, I'm not sure there's a point in having it possible to translate elsewhere
<lifeless> Riddell: well talk with Carlos.
<lifeless> Riddell: one reason to have separate translations is to have new versions translated: rosettas translation focus for ubuntu is dapper.
<carlos> Riddell: what lifeless said
<Riddell> ok
#ubuntu-devel 2007-10-29
<Ditiris> Can anyone tell me a little bit about the best way to do DMA transfers in Linux?  I have a couple of general questions for a project.  I'm just looking for a push in the right direction.
<ion_> dd if=foo of=bar
<ion_> Please read the topic.
<Ditiris> sorry ; ;
<OpenSorce> LaserJock, you awake my friend?
<LaserJock> OpenSorce: barely :-)
<OpenSorce> LaserJock, hehe.....just wanted to let you know that a certain afore mentioned article will not be published
<LaserJock> OpenSorce: ok, thanks for letting us know
<OpenSorce> also I'll be personally gathering data on the wifi hardware of the 6 machines we discussed and filing bug reports personally for each
<LaserJock> thank you very much for the effort
<LaserJock> it's a very odd problem
<LaserJock> many thousands of people have installed or upgraded to Ubuntu 7.10 without problems like that
<LaserJock> but if there *is* something we can do then we will surely look into it
<LaserJock> and you suggestion of looking at what Mandriva was doing to solve or get around the problem is a good one
<OpenSorce> Our IT guy believes that it's an issue that can be resolved with ndiswrapper.....I'm going to test that theory....and I have a feeling that most of the machines (office desktops) are using Broadcom chipsets
<LaserJock> that could very well be
<OpenSorce> anyway....just wanted to let you guys know :-)
<LaserJock> thanks for the update
<OpenSorce> with the whole "new user" aspect out of the way.....let me tell you that Ubuntu is awsome.....you guys have done great work
<LaserJock> the devs appreciate that
<LaserJock> it can be quite stressful at times
<LaserJock> we try to be as much of a "new user" distro as we can, but there are lots of practical/philosophical limitations
<OpenSorce> I can only imagine.....I'm going to try rebuilding my own distro on Ubuntu instead of what I am using now and see how that works out
<OpenSorce> well.....I for one don't believe it's fair to compare free distros to non-free ones
<LaserJock> well, yes and no
<LaserJock> I think it's ok
<LaserJock> as long as you can document things well
<OpenSorce> on my own box I have slackware and without a single scrap of non-free code on it.....I even do without full gfx support because Nvidia doesn't make free drivers
<LaserJock> giving new users information they can use sometimes is much better than hiding the "nasty details"
<LaserJock> for instance, with your review I think it's legitamite to talk about wifi problems
<LaserJock> but I think it must be done with a "some people may find problems with certain wifi cards"
<LaserJock> rather than "don't us Kubuntu if you have wifi"
<LaserJock> *use
<OpenSorce> well, the way it's been redone, we'll review distros that pass the basics but not the ones that don't....
<LaserJock> and I think educating people on the "why" of why Ubuntu doesn't play mp3s by default, etc. can be helpful for new users
<OpenSorce> We won't even mention them as far as new users go......and another journalist will be heading up the "not so newb" reviews in which case I am sure the *buntu flavors will do well
<LaserJock> it's not always about shielding people, but about giving them enough information for them to be able to decide, without overwhelming them with technical details
<LaserJock> well, I hope Ubuntu will make it to the "good for newbs" list soon enough
<LaserJock> I really think it's quite good for newbs
<LaserJock> we've made a lot of strides
<OpenSorce> LaserJock, without a doubt
<OpenSorce> LaserJock, I'll be trying every release of Kubuntu that comes out.....and if they ever decide Gnome is ok for new people Ubuntu as well
<LaserJock> that's realy strange that Gnome isn't considered
<LaserJock> I think there's some really fishy ideas about what is "new user" friendly
<jdong> they're picking KDE over GNOME for user friendliness?
<OpenSorce> LaserJock, it's based on some tests that were done last year.....new people who were used to Windows chose KDE over Gnome
<jdong> well familiarity -- yes
<jdong> KDE's configuration is more of a clone of Windows
<jdong> nothing says you can't configure GNOME the same way
<OpenSorce> jdong, exactly
<OpenSorce> jdong, we deal with "out of the box" configurations mostly
<LaserJock> but it seems like you've narrowed yourselves quit a bit
<LaserJock> many new users will love Gnome as well
<jdong> I find most people figure out GNOME pretty quickly
<jdong> sure there's a bit of startle at first because menus are at the top and so on
<jdong> but after that, IMO Gnome is easier for learning new tasks.
<jdong> perpetuation the "Linux is EXACTLY like windows" stereotype in the UI front is a bad idea
<jdong> it'll end very soon, and users won't be happy.
<jdong> (i.e. try to go install something)
<LaserJock> OpenSorce: anyway, I don't want to take youre time more
<LaserJock> I gotta get to bed
<LaserJock> OpenSorce: thanks for update and for getting the feedback to our bug tracker
<OpenSorce> LaserJock, and I don't want to be a "troll" :-)
<LaserJock> thanks
<OpenSorce> LaserJock, always nice talking o you
<LaserJock> likewise
<ubuntu-j> I have noticed a package that's out of date, in apt, and I'm a afraid it will get neglected. Is this the proper place to bring that up?
<Hobbsee> which package?
<ubuntu-j> libtheora
<ubuntu-j> The current package in apt is Alpha 07
<ubuntu-j> the current actual release
<ubuntu-j> is Beta 2
<ubuntu-j> I see a launchpad page for the package, but no maintainer.
<ubuntu-j> assigned to it.
<Hobbsee> ah yes
<Hobbsee> it came up way after feature freeze
<Hobbsee> !timebasedreleases
<ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
<Hobbsee> see ^
<ubuntu-j> Right
<Hobbsee> and by the time it was there, it was far too late to retest everything with it.
<ubuntu-j> Can it be released into apt now that 7.10 is generally available, as an update?
<Fujitsu> Very, very unlikely.
<Fujitsu> It breaks ABI, doesn't it?
<ubuntu-j> Why is that?
<RAOF> It *might* go into backports, but probably not.
<ubuntu-j> Ok, why not backports?
<Hobbsee> ubuntu-j: no.  you didnt read teh link, did you?
<Fujitsu> ubuntu-j: Backporting libraries is generally a Bad Idea.
<ubuntu-j> Ok
<ubuntu-j> I've read both pages
<ubuntu-j> So, what you're saying is, because it's a library (and therefore used by many programs) it's a bad idea to release it now, because of an unknowable amount of impact on other programs (known and unknown) that might be affected by it?
<persia> ubuntu-j: Exactly.
<ubuntu-j> So, suck it up and wait for 8.04 for Theora Beta2 (or whatever the current release at that time)?
<RAOF> Pretty much.  Is there anything terribly interesting in beta2 over alpha 7?
<persia> ubuntu-j: Well, perhaps "The next release (8.04) will contain a newer version, and all software compiled and tested against that version"
<ubuntu-j> Yes, significant performance gains. At least, that's what I've been given to understand. Also a few programs require >alpha-7
<ubuntu-j> * correction: >alpha-07.
<ubuntu-j> If I build it myself, and it (semi-miraculously) compiles without error, am I asking for trouble compiling it myself?
<RAOF> No, not really.
<ubuntu-j> ok
<RAOF> Unless you install it in system-wide.  Then you may or may not break every program that uses libtheora
<ubuntu-j> if I do a... ./configure && make install
<ubuntu-j> is that going system wide?
<Hobbsee> ubuntu-j: if you compile it yourself, you'll have to recopile everything else that depends on it
<Hobbsee> yes.
<persia> ubuntu-j: Depends where make install installs it.
<ubuntu-j> nuts
<Hobbsee> persia: true, but in standard config...
<Hobbsee> ubuntu-j: this is why it didnt get upgraded.
<ubuntu-j> the "snow-ball effect"
<Hobbsee> ubuntu-j: because, of course, you'd have to test each program that it works with the new vesrion, and fix anything that doesnt :)
<Hobbsee> exactly
<RAOF> That'll stick it in /usr/local generally.  What you probably want is ./configure --prefix=/home/username/local or something.
<ubuntu-j> ok
<ion_> I prefer ~/.local, doesnât clutter the directory listing. :-)
<RAOF> ion_: Not a bad idea.
<ion_> I have ~/.local/bin in my $PATH, for example.
<RAOF> And ~/.local/lib in your ld.conf ?
<ubuntu-j> Alright guys. Thanks for the explanation.
<ion_> Nope, i havenât had a need to install libraries to my ~
<ubuntu-j> I do have a question about another package though.
<ubuntu-j> Has anybody had success porting Novel iFolder to Ubuntu?
<Hobbsee> ahhh, now i think popey was looking into that 6 months ago
<ubuntu-j> I've tried 10-ways to Sunday to get import (via alien) the .rpm, and compiling brakes the thing.
<RAOF> From memory that's got a non-free server, right?
<Hobbsee> but, i have no idea how far he got
<ubuntu-j> I'ts free
<ubuntu-j> now
<ubuntu-j> it was at one time non-free
<ubuntu-j> this has changed in the past ~6-months
<RAOF> ubuntu-j: The whole stack, or just the client?
<ubuntu-j> The whole stack
<ubuntu-j> There was some framework
<ubuntu-j> being non-free
<RAOF> Oh, possibly cool.
<ubuntu-j> issue
<ubuntu-j> Would you like the URI which indicates the license changeover?
<RAOF> Not particularly.  I've got a large bunch of other things to do than package something I'm unlikely to use :)
<ubuntu-j> ok, well, at least you're honest
<RAOF> Someone probably will, or you can yourself ):
<ubuntu-j> I've tried
<RAOF> If you're interested enough to try packaging it, #ubuntu-motu will help :)
<ubuntu-j> I ended up cursing into a paper bag (so to speak)
<ubuntu-j> Ok
<ubuntu-j> umm...
<RAOF> !packagingguide | ubuntu-j
<ubotu> ubuntu-j: The packaging guide is at http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/New for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources - See also !backports
<ubuntu-j> I don't understand C/C++ much will this be an insurmountable problem?
<ubuntu-j> Or, will I end up learning more C than I wanted to know in the process?
<RAOF> No, not at all.  You don't need to be able to program at all.
<RAOF> You'll learn a bit of makefile syntax, but that's about it.
<RAOF> And probably a bit of shell scripting, but no C at all (unless you want to, of course)
<ubuntu-j> Alright
<ubuntu-j> And when it spits out some arcane error I don't understand... and I RTFM and still don't understand, I hop on the list and they help me?
<RAOF> Yup.  Absolutely.
<ubuntu-j> Ok, now I created a launchpad account some time ago for this purpose (and to talk to the server guys, because I used to deploy a lot of Samba File Servers / PDC's) but no one has passed a package (specifically iFolder) to me to even try to package. What do I do?
<ubuntu-j> Note: I have read the MOTU documentation, it's been a while though.
<Hobbsee> file a needs-packaging bug, assign it to yourself.
<ubuntu-j> It has a bug (of that type)
<ubuntu-j> and some people have tried, but real life has gotten in the way, and they dropped it again.
<ubuntu-j> Can I still assign it to myself?
<RAOF> Yup
<ubuntu-j> Ok
<ubuntu-j> well
<ubuntu-j> Thanks guys
<ubuntu-j> When is feature freeze for 8.04?
<persia> ubuntu-j: Early February.
<ubuntu-j> ok thanks
<mekius> bryce: Hey, we are having issues with the openchrome 2D driver and the unichrome 3D driver.  Seems to cause a kernel panic as the whole machine locks.  Also, there is an experimental version of the openchrome drivers that support some of the newer cards.  I tested the latest copy of the unichrome 3D driver from their git and didn't get a kernel panic.  Any possibility the packages involved could be updated to support more hardware?
<pwnguin> pop quiz: what time is it in CST?
<gnomefreak> @now cts
<gnomefreak> pwnguin: where are you? msg ubotu now wher eyou are at
<pwnguin> im in kansas
<pwnguin> cst/cdt
<gnomefreak> @now kansas
<gnomefreak> damn bot
<pwnguin> thats not really the point though
<pwnguin> something decided to fall back an hour
<pwnguin> 5 days ahead of schedule
<gnomefreak> http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/timezones.html pwnguin will help you
<gnomefreak> pwnguin: this isnt the channel for this either
<ompaul> @now dublin
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/Dublin: October 29 2007, 09:35:07 - Next meeting: Kernel Team in 1 day
<ompaul> @now texas
<pwnguin> @now chicago
<ubotu> Current time in America/Chicago: October 29 2007, 04:35:16 - Next meeting: Kernel Team in 1 day
<ompaul> ahh now there ya go
<thom> pwnguin: TZ=America/Chicago date is your friend; but this really isn't the right place unless you think your timezone maps are wrong
<pwnguin> /etc/timezone says america/chicago, but gnome and date report CDT
<cyberix> Are there any Windows applications being packaged for Ubuntu?
<persia> cyberix: That effort is waiting on bug #130032
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 130032 in ubuntu "[needs-packaging] Wine-doors" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/130032
<cyberix> Well I was actually thinking more in terms of integrating with Ubuntu.
<cyberix> i.e. creating deb-packages
<cyberix> Wine-doors is for making currently existing Windows packages to work in Ubuntu, right?
<persia> cyberix: Do you mean packaging applications that currently are windows only for source-level distribution in Ubuntu?
<cyberix> Yes, but of course including non-free stuff for multiverse.
<cyberix> Maybe packaging, say game "Progress Quest" for multiverse.
<Fujitsu> Attempting to compile them with winelib, or mingw and wine?
<cyberix> Attempting to depend on wine and include a launcher in the package.
<persia> cyberix: If the source compiles and runs, and is licensed so that it may be distributed, I'd suggest following the standard packaging process.  If you need special hooks (as those mentioned by Fujitsu), I'd wait for wine-doors.
<cyberix> "wine progressquest.exe"
<cyberix> I was just wondering, if wine work out of the box
<Fujitsu> I'm not exactly sure how system-wide Wine apps would work...
<Fujitsu> It's not designed to operate like that.
<cyberix> Because, if the user doesn't even want to install wine, then I really can't expect her to configure it, right?
 * persia thought wine-doors was an attempt to address that
<Fujitsu> Easy installation is for Wine-Doors, yep.
<cyberix> I don't actually see how it would be better in this case.
<cyberix> Except that people who know they are looking for Windows software might try to use it first.
<cyberix> I do think Wine-doors makes a lot of sense, but it is completely different from packaging Windows software for Ubuntu.
<Fujitsu> How?
<Fujitsu> Wine-Doors is packaging Windows applications in a distribution-neutral manner, which is probably a better idea, particularly given the complexity of the infrastructure and lack of a Debian policy on the matter.
<cyberix> Yes.
<cyberix> But not everything is complex.
<Fujitsu> I don't see the purpose of duplication - Wine apps don't interact with the rest of the system, there's no FHS, etc.
<cyberix> And Ubuntu users might like the Ubuntu way more than a distribution neutral non-integrated manner.
<cyberix> There used to be atleast one Nintendo Entertainment System game packaged for Debian
<cyberix> But the packaging was lacking application icon and shell script to run the game by typing its name to a console.
<cyberix> The kind of stuff you would normally expect.
<cyberix> apt-cache show efp
<Fujitsu> !info efp
<ubotu> efp: Escape from Pong NES game. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.4-2 (gutsy), package size 8 kB, installed size 112 kB
<cyberix> But then again there are multiple nes emulators.
<persia> cyberix: More interestingly, Escape from Pong is free :)
<cyberix> But there is only one wine
<cyberix> So this won't be a problem for Windows stuff
<cyberix> persia: :-)
<Kopfgeldjaeger> hi
<cyberix> Even binaries include the source code, if you write them by hand. ;-)
<ion_> It would be kind of funny to have proper package management for WindowsÂ® software with repositories and dependencies and FHS before WindowsÂ® has it. :-)
<Fujitsu> cyberix: Windows applications have a complex filesystem structure, traditionally kept in ~/.wine... The permissions over various system directories might also be rather restrictive. I'm really not sure how a system-wide Wine prefix would work.
<cyberix> Running the startup script would create symlink to users "drive c"?
<cyberix> startup script of the specfic application
<cyberix> I'm currently talking about a very simple piece of Windows software
<cyberix> with only one exe-file and nothing else
<cyberix> Doesn't make sense to take giant steps towards a deadly pit. :-)
<gaspa> doko: hi. do you know if someone is merging ltrace package? are you working on that?
<cyberix> Is there something like MOTU for Multiverse?
<Hobbsee> motu does universe adn multiverse
<cyberix> ok
<cyberix> thanks
<mr_pouit> superm1: did you receive my mail about xubuntu or did it get lost?
<Hobbsee> (he's at breakfast)
<mr_pouit> mmh, ok ^^
<pitti> Good morning
<Hobbsee> pitti!
 * pitti hugs Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> :)
 * Hobbsee hugs pitti back
 * nixternal group hugs everyone awake
 * Fujitsu snores.
<pitti> nixternal: that would be a lot -- everyone is just assembling in the main room
<nixternal> hrmm, stage dive + hug
<pitti> StevenK: texlive-bin bumped
<Riddell> is there a UDS channel?
 * ogra_cmpc was wondering that as well
 * soren hugs StevenK for fixing texlive-bin
<zul> Riddell: #uds-boston
<Riddell> so that's where everyone is hiding
<ogra_cmpc> zul: thanks
* Riddell changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with hardy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Hardy opened, go wild! | UDS in #uds-boston
<zul> ogra_cmpc: no probs
<slangasek> anyone in platform roundtable can tell me how to get to the gobby resource Arne mentioned?
<slangasek> ArneGoetje: ^^?
<siretart> gobby.ubuntu.com?
<mdomsch> bryce, ping
<Keybuk> err, need a Python expert
<Keybuk> if I have a UTC datetime, how do I get a local time ?
<crimsun_> time.localtime() ?
<crimsun_> err, s/time.//
<Fujitsu> Keybuk: I think the correct way is to give up, concluding that Python's datetime manipulation is really lacking :(
<Keybuk> heh
<lifeless> jcastro: Znarl
<mdomsch> Keybuk, tz.fromutc()
<Keybuk> mdomsch: I can't work out how to actually specify the timezone
<lifeless> Keybuk: python ?
<slangasek> presumably tz.fromutc() gives you an object with a second method that lets you specify the timezone?
<Keybuk> slangasek: but it only accepts a class that nothing appears to implement
<lifeless> Keybuk: time.tzname is te current timezone
<lifeless> Keybuk: what are you trying to do ?
<slangasek> lifeless: munge the datestamps he got exported from LP, I think :)
<zul> ?win 14
<Keybuk> lifeless: it's blank
<Keybuk> and current timezone isn't useful
<lifeless> Keybuk: where are you? I'm not clear on what you are trying to do.
<Keybuk> lifeless: I've given up and just hacked it
<Keybuk> basically I have UTC dates
<Keybuk> and I want EDT times
<Keybuk> and Python doesn't let you do that
<Keybuk> because it's fucking stupid
<Keybuk> </angry at silly programming languages>?
<bddebian> Heya
<awalton__> keybuk: localtime() doesn't work? or maybe strftime() with %Z?
<awalton__> (note: I don't speak pythonese, but python's written in C, it should wrap the C stdlibs pretty tightly..)
<lifeless> isn't it juste
<lifeless> time.strftime("%a, %d %b %Y %H:%M:%S", time.gmtime(localtimeinseconds))
<awalton__> (not awake, that first line should have been localtime() with strftime())
<lifeless> where localtimeinseconds is time.mktime(utc_tuple) + TZOFFSET
<awalton__> lifeless: you'd know better than me, I don't know python at all.
<wasabi> Is there going to be voice conference stuff at this UDS so those of us who are not there can listen in?
<Hobbsee> yes, see #canonical-sysadmin
<wasabi> Sweet, thanks!
<siretart>    
<siretart> `>
<sommer>  /j #canonical-sysadmin
<sommer>  /j #canonical-sysadmin
<ompaul> !bostonvoip
<sommer> woops
<ubotu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Boston/Participate  go on you know you want to
<sommer> ompaul: thanks
<ompaul> sommer, it is the icing on the cake that counts :)
<dib_> alguem teve de instalar alguns drivers para placa via chrome9 HC IGP? Ã que sou iniciante em ubuntu e nÃ£o estou a conseguir por a placa a funcionar. JÃ¡ segui vÃ¡rios posts de helps ubuntu mas chegando Ã  parte de compilar o OpenChrome perco-me completamente e nÃ£o consigo compilar... AlguÃ©m me pode ajudar?
<Hobbsee> dib_: and in english?
<ompaul> !pt
<ubotu> Por favor use #ubuntu-br ou #ubuntu-pt para ajuda em portuguÃªs. Obrigado.
<dib_> 	
<dib_> Someone had to install some drivers to plate via chrome9 HC IGP? It is that I am beginning in ubuntu and I am not able for the board to operate. We follow several posts, helps ubuntu but getting to the part of compiling the OpenChrome miss me completely and not compile ... Someone can help me?
<dib_> my english is bad:-)
<mr_pouit> superm1: did you receive my mail about xubuntu or did it get lost? (or didn't have the time to respond, or whatever...)
<superm1> mr_pouit, my gmail filters got really messed up with me switching to gmail+imap, so its probably in there but it thinks that i read it - but i didn't
<superm1> let me hunt through
<superm1> mr_pouit, are you here at UDS right now?
<mr_pouit> superm1: no :(
<superm1> o :(.
<mr_pouit> iirc the subject is "Re: Getting started for hardy"
<superm1> mr_pouit, oh just found it.  I'll look into xfmedia-remote-plugin and xfce4-sensors-plugin today
<mr_pouit> superm1: ok, thanks :) (I have already merged some packages, gpocentek too)
<chriss_croozer> hello
<superm1> mr_pouit, xfmedia-remote isn't in debian or ubuntu right now, so you were meaning to get it in NEW via universe i'm assuming right?
<chriss_croozer> hello?
<chriss_croozer> can anybody tell me where i can submit kernel patches for ubuntu kernel
<mr_pouit> superm1: yes
<superm1> chriss_croozer, kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com is the mailing list you can bring them up on, or attach them to a bug typically.  you can find the kernel guys in #ubuntu-kernel as well, but mind you UDS is going on right now
<mr_pouit> superm1: there is also this plugin: http://goodies.xfce.org/releases/xfce4-smartpm-plugin/, but I'm not sure about smart package manager (is it used by many people in ubuntu?)
<superm1> mr_pouit, okay i'll see what i can do.
<superm1> mr_pouit, are there any needs-packaging bugs that are outstanding on these for me to close up during this too that you know of offhand?
<chriss_croozer> thanks for info
<mr_pouit> last time I checked, no
<superm1> mr_pouit, do you guys have an area you like to keep packaging in bzr?
<superm1> like a ~xubuntu-devel team against an xubuntu project?
<mr_pouit> superm1: until now, no. But we can start using bzr
<superm1> mr_pouit, i'll push it to a motu team branch then for now
<superm1> since it will live in universe for now
<mr_pouit> superm1: I can add you to the xubuntu-team if you prefer
<superm1> mr_pouit, yeah i guess that won't hurt
<mr_pouit> superm1: this should be ok
<superm1> mr_pouit, you here?
<superm1> you want to give a quick once over, so i can push it out?
<mr_pouit> superm1: yes
<mr_pouit> superm1: I looked at the bzr trunk, is it up-to-date?
<superm1> mr_pouit, it should be
<mr_pouit> superm1: for the debian/rules, we usually use "include /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/xfce.mk" only ;)
<superm1> mr_pouit, oh that probably would have made life easier....
<superm1> haha
<LaserJock> is there a participation page for UDS?
<LaserJock> I can't find any info on VoIP or gobby
<LaserJock> doh
<mc44> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Boston/Participate
<LaserJock> I just guessed
<LaserJock> that should really be linked from the main page
<so1> hi
<so1> i probably found a usability problem in gnome-appearance-properties ...
<so1> i just wanted to discuss it before filing it
<so1> but the whole #gnome channel is silent ...
<so1> so i came here ...
<azeem> try #gnome on gimpnet
<so1> yes, did that
<so1> i just had a hard time to debug a font problem
<so1> somebody came to me and complained, that "strong" hinting was more blurry than "light"
<so1> after a while i figured out, that the font didn't had bytecode embedded ...
<so1> and my question now is:
<so1> why is the option "strong" not deactivated, when the font doesn't offer bytecode?
<so1> because without bytceode: strong = off
<so1> and that is _really_ confusing
<Burgundavia> jcastro: ping
<jcastro> Burgundavia: yo
<Burgundavia> jcastro: where is ryan?
<jcastro> Burgundavia: next to me, we're in luscomb
<Burgundavia> luscomb?
<Burgundavia> rocking, inbound
<LaserJock> jcastro: hola
<soren> Remind me again why we're using linux-libc-dev when building iptables?
<fabbione> soren: kernel headers
<fabbione> sync iptables stuff with kernel and luserland
<soren_> fabbione: ...but iptables doesn't depend on any particular kernel version, and we don't even require our users to be using an ubuntu supplied kernel..
<fabbione> soren_: BZZZZZZT
<fabbione> soren_: some iptables features builds only if kernel > version foo
<fabbione> that's because feature is simply not available before
<fabbione> and you need includes for that
<fabbione> soren_: if you are merging iptables.. then i have been there.. done that.. you need that
 * fabbione does a Jedi's mind trick to soren_ to convince him
<IntuitiveNipple> soren: Quick question for you. I've just added some debdiffs to bug #156085 in kvm/qemu. I noticed you've applied the last few patches. Do you know who is responsible for bringing the kvm package up-to-date. Ubuntu is currently on kvm-28 whereas latest is kvm-48.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 156085 in qemu "Could not open /proc/bus/usb/devices" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156085
<slangasek> lamont: why do bsdmainutils and bsdutils conflict in unstable?
<lamont> it's not conflict...
<lamont> it's apt
<wasabi> cool. latest hal is screwed up
<lamont> slangasek: you looking at build logs, then?
<IntuitiveNipple> soren__: I'm guessing you lost connection and missed my question?
<slangasek> lamont: um... I looked at the build logs, and from there I tracked down the package contents and see that they do have a conflict. :)
<slangasek> lamont: because bsdmainutils only conflicts with bsdutils (<< 1:2.13-2)
<slangasek> and there's newer bsdutils
<slangasek> which still include the files that are the subject of the conflict
<lamont> slangasek: WHAT!. gah!
 * lamont goes to fix0r things then
<slangasek> ok :)
<superm1> mr_pouit, i also packaged up xfce4-smartpm-plugin if you can ask it
<soren> fabbione: Sorry, the network here and my wireless nic are not friends.
<lamont> slangasek: ah... that's because I kept col et al
<lamont> so...  do I replace: bsdmainutils again, or do I give back col*
<lamont> ?
<lamont> UTF support seemed to be the biggest diff there.
<fabbione> soren: see /msg
<soren> fabbione: Oh, I got all your messages. My responses seem to have been lost.
<slangasek> lamont: I don't care, just let me get felix built :-)
<soren> fabbione: As I was trying to say, I realise that the build needs the right headers to be there, but iptables doesn't "Depends: linux-image (>= foo)" anyway.
<soren> fabbione: ...so you don't know if it'll work at runtime anyway.
<soren> fabbione: ...and we don't even require our users to be running our kernels.
<IntuitiveNipple> soren: I'm guessing you lost connection and missed my question too?
<soren> fabbione: So, the stuff that might build is completely independent of what will work at runtime.
<soren> IntuitiveNipple: Nono, I saw it. I just couldn't respond, apparantly.
<fabbione> soren: you don't care about runtime... you care that it builds all the userland modules that match our kernel. we don't support custom kernels anyway
<IntuitiveNipple> soren: Ahhh, ok... is there a quick answer? :)
<lamont> slangasek: currently, bsdutils "Replaces: bsdmainutils"
<lamont> so do I just need a new upload?
 * lamont grumbles
<slangasek> lamont: oh, right... um, then I guess I just need to kick elmo about getting the new package installed in the sparc chroot
<slangasek> lamont: in that case I don't see any need for a new upload
<soren> fabbione: Right. What I intend to to is to put the headers files into the iptables source package so that we get all the extensions built. Whether they'll work at runtime we don't know anyway (since the user might be running an older kernel or a custom one).
<lamont> slangasek: if it was already installed, and then bsdmainutils upload happened, and then bsdutils was upgraded, then I think we get where we are
<soren> IntuitiveNipple: I'll look in a minute.
<fabbione> soren: no, that's wrong
<soren> fabbione: ...about supporting custom kernels, mjg59 told me we do support that.
<soren> fabbione: why?
<lamont> slangasek: where you at?
<fabbione> soren: eh? who said that?
<soren> fabbione: mjg59.
<slangasek> lamont: currently, or in three minutes?
<lamont> heh.
<fabbione> soren: because you want to know a kernel change will break your set of features
<lamont> in 3-5 min
 * lamont will be in linux-source-changes
<lamont> s/linux/kernel/
<fabbione> soren: anyway.. do what you think is right. just make sure to be able to collect all the broken pieces in the next merge
<slangasek> lamont: I'm headed to Hunsaker C
<lamont> slangasek: I'll go ahead and upload a new bsdutils that doesn't deliver col*, and then hijack all of bsdmainutils in 2.14
<soren> fabbione: *g*
<StevenK> lamont: You're actually here?
<fabbione> soren: just FYI in the past, using the proper kernel headers did uncover some bugs...
<lamont> since sunday evening
<soren> fabbione: Well, so has the current approach :)
<so1> hi
<so1> does someone know if it's possible to install ubuntu on an asus eee?
<so1> and if yes, would it be intelligent to do so?
<so1> basically i want to know if the machine is locked up or not ...
<pitti> Riddell: did you see the last comment in the SRU bug 155032?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 155032 in kdesudo "kdesu ownership change" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/155032
<Riddell> pitti: last comment doesn't look very interesting
<pitti> Riddell: sorry, I mean the guy who says that the -proposed update doesn't work, but the PPA one does
<pitti> Riddell: comment 26
<Riddell> pitti: hmm, yes
<Riddell> pitti: I'll look into it
<pitti> Riddell: thanks; I just wanted to make sure that you are aware of it, since it seems to be quite a critical bug
<warp10> pitti: Hi! may I call you in query?
 * cyberix is lacking the brain power to parse version numberin chapter of the packaging guide.
<cyberix> First the example shows...
<cyberix> hello (2.1.1-1) dapper; urgency=low
<LaserJock> cyberix: please ask in #ubuntu-motu
<cyberix> Ok
<KristianL> hmm, I need wnck python bindings ...
<pitti> warp10: sure
<lamont> cjwatson_: you around?
<lamont> someone is looking for you...
<lonnie> Using the 7.10 live CD I move windows files to an external hard drive with a ntfs partion. After installing Ubuntu 7.10, I looked for the files on the external hard drive and NONE WERE THERE!
<lonnie> I remember when I unmounted the external hard drive, it asked if I wanted empty trash and I said yes.
<lonnie> Anyone know why these file wouldn't show?
<lonnie> Only the files that the Ubuntu Live CD moved to the external hard drive are missing.
<lonnie> ls -a
<lonnie> any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
<LaserJock> StevenK: gimme a ping when you're around
<StevenK> LaserJock: Hrm?
<warsocket> could someone tell me what im missing when "gcc -m32 program.c" gives me a /usr/bin/ld: skipping incompatible /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.1.3/libgcc.a when searching for -lgcc  If i try to compile on Ubuntu gutsy (64-bits)
<Kopfgeldjaeger> n8
<mdomsch> bryce, ping
#ubuntu-devel 2007-10-30
<chowmeined> are there plans to adopt debian's new graphical installer for the alternate CDs?
<Keybuk> mjg59: dial-up-support ... NM 0.7 ... win
<Keybuk> chowmeined: that seems to defeat the *point* of the alternate CDs
<chowmeined> really?
<chowmeined> i dont use the alternate cd because its non-graphical.. i use it because it lets me setup raid and lvm
<Keybuk> the alternate CD is intended for situations where the ordinary desktop CD isn't suitable
<chowmeined> and of course it would still be an option to use the text installer.. just like the debian installer provides
<chowmeined> exactly
<chowmeined> like when i want raid and lvm
<Keybuk> but making it graphical would make it unsuitable for "when graphical doesn't work"
<chowmeined> hence the text mode option
<Keybuk> the option would make it twice as hard to support
<Keybuk> since we'd have to test it twice
<Keybuk> text mode only means it works for both groups of users
<Keybuk> you can still set up lvm and raid when it's text mode
<chowmeined> well 2 times 0 is still 0
<Keybuk> why zero?
<chowmeined> by continuing the policy of not testing
<Keybuk> what policy?
<Keybuk> we *heavily* test all the CD images we release
<chowmeined> well thats a different topic
<Keybuk> we spend an extraordinary amount of time doing it
<chowmeined> and most of the normal things work just fine
<chowmeined> its excellent what is done
<Keybuk> adding yet another permutation would make that job harder
<Keybuk> especially when that permutation has limited value
<chowmeined> but i still managed to rack up about 10 bugs since gutsy was released
<Keybuk> sure, you get bugs
<Keybuk> there's always bugs
<chowmeined> yes
<Keybuk> releasing bug-free software is impossible
<chowmeined> it is
<Keybuk> and, in fact, we don't even attempt to fix all the bugs we find
<chowmeined> why not?
<Keybuk> because sometimes fixing the bug is harder than releasing it
<Keybuk> known bugs are better than unknown bugs
<chowmeined> fair enough
<pwnguin> hopefully the automated testing stuff will bring up some nice regression testing etc
<chowmeined> then it would be good to remove the options which expose the bugs
<chowmeined> like "Suspend" from the menu in gdm
<Keybuk> a graphical installer on the alternate CD doesn't really have a use case
<Keybuk> chowmeined: hmm, that works?
<chowmeined> not on any computers ive tried it on (6)
<Keybuk> works for me
<Keybuk> suspend/resume is notorious
<chowmeined> it works when im logged in, it works with pmi action suspend
<chowmeined> but not from the gdm login screen
<pwnguin> which is why its not supposed to show up if it doesnt think it can do it...
<Keybuk> that's not a question about the installer though
<Keybuk> since the installer doesn't use gdm
<chowmeined> i changed topics
<Keybuk> ah, I was yanking us back to the topic
<chowmeined> i dont want to talk about the installer anymore
<Keybuk> bugs go in http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<chowmeined> because you made your point and it seems fai
<chowmeined> fair*
<chowmeined> i know where bugs go :) ... anyways its too late, ill save it for hardy
<Keybuk> errr
<Keybuk> saving the bug is a biiiit late :p
<Keybuk> we're developing hardy *now*
<pwnguin> hardy's open -- no CDs out yet of course
<chowmeined> i realize this
<chowmeined> no ISOs though
<Keybuk> if you file the bug in six months time, after hardy is released, then it definitely won't get fixed for hardy
<chowmeined> ill file it when alpha 1 comes out
<Keybuk> why?
<Keybuk> if you know the bug is already there, why not file it now?
<chowmeined> because i dont know
<chowmeined> its in gutsy.. but
<Keybuk> if you don't file the bug ...
<chowmeined> maybe they fixed the infrastructure issue
<Keybuk> ... then how will anyone know to fix it?
<pwnguin> chowmeined: you might appreciate the stuff liw is doing with automated testing. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekgutsy/AutoTests
<chowmeined> somebody already reported the bug for gutsy.. i said my "me too".. and theres still no response
<chowmeined> so ill wait for hardy
<chowmeined> alphas
<Keybuk> you didn't say it had been already reported :)
<chowmeined> pwnguin, yea automated testing is nice, i tried using dogtail.. it was a pain
<chowmeined> but i mean.. the theory is nice
<chowmeined> getting a 'low' priority is a death sentence for bugs ..
<chowmeined> so is it possible for me to test software before it is released in an ISO? can i just install single debs in gutsy from the hardy repo?
<chowmeined> not core ones of course..
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> Burgundavia: around?
<Burgundavia> Keybuk: pong
<Keybuk> Burgundavia: whatever happened to ubuntu demon and spamming planet about his killer hard drive of doom ?
<sladen> Keybuk: maybe his hard drive died...?
<Keybuk> sladen: I'm going to buy new shoes this week
<Keybuk> you should come too
<Keybuk> or you could have my old ones
<sladen> Keybuk: touchÃ©
<Keybuk> Burgundavia: does easy-ldap-server need another session?
<Burgundavia> Keybuk: no
<Keybuk> Burgundavia: let me reach for my figlet
<Keybuk> COULD YOU SET IT AS DRAFTING THEN PLEASE
<Keybuk> ;)
<Burgundavia> I have no idea how it ended up on the uds-schedule
<Keybuk> This topic was proposed by  nijaba  on 2007-10-01. It was previously marked "Accepted" for the agenda by  Rick Clark  11 hours ago.
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> declared informational and superceded
<thully> hi - I'm trying to track down a bug by rebuilding git snapshots of my kernel, and after one build I'm getting a "debian/rules not found" error
<thully> How do I get debian/rules back?  I need it to build proper kernel .debs...
<imbrandon> is it not found or not executable ? iirc it needs to be set +x and the error looks similar
<imbrandon> other than that do a new git co
<imbrandon> Keybuk, you get stuck with the scheduling this time ? heh fun fun
<mekius> bryce: did you happen to receive my message yesterday?
<thully> imbrandon: it's not there at all, the last build simply ate the file...
<sebastian^> good morning folks
<gaspa> doko: ping
<Kopfgeldjaeger> hi
 * Hobbsee waves to fabbione
<simira> morning fabbione
<fabbione> hi ladies
<simira> is Tollef still asleep or what?
<fabbione> simira: dunno.. i am not at UDS
<zul> hey fabbione
<fabbione> hi zul
<simira> fabbione: you're not? Why?
<fabbione> simira: because i am not distro team anymore
<fabbione> haven't been for the past 3 months or so
<simira> fabbione: oh, I thought everyone was at the uds... so you're not going until next week, then?
<fabbione> simira: i am flying out tomorrow for 2 days of vacation in Boston
<fabbione> will meet the others next week
 * fabbione needs to visit his grandma too
<simira> fabbione: that sounds nice. Hmm, maybe I should get Tollef out of distro... :p
<fabbione> simira: well he was not in San Fran a month ago :)
<simira> fabbione: true, he was in Boston a month ago :p
<lool> asac: Hey; I just prepared pango 1.19.0 and it does a good job at uglifiyng firefox' font rendering; we should take a look together
<sladen> simira: haven't seen tollef yet
<simira> sladen: he's online now. :)
<simira> sladen: so, you got there in time, then
<sladen> simira: just made it, even with the adventure involved :)
<asac> lool: oh .. ok
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-August/024101.html
<joejaxx> ok
<calc> Hobbsee: good morning
<Hobbsee> hiya calc!
* sladen changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: OPEN | Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with hardy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Hardy opened, go wild! | UDS in #uds-boston
<warp10> pitti: May I query you?
<jdstrand> mdz: fyi, rick just added ubuntu-firewall as the next session (9:50)
<mdz> he emailed me, thanks
<jdstrand> slangasek: fyi ubuntu-firewall is scheduled now (it just changed)
<warp10> pitti: May I query you?
<pitti> warp10: hey!
<pitti> warp10: a bit unstable internet here, but go ahead
<wasabi> Is there anyway to use dpkg to declare a Depends to a version number of some sort which is fixed for ubuntu release? For instance Depends: something (= 7.10)
<wasabi> Actually, let me reverse that. I want to declare a Conflicts: distro (> 7.10)
<mjg59> No
<mjg59> Conflict on the package that provides the functionality you conflict with
<wasabi> Problems is that isn't known yet.
<wasabi> I think I'd have to explain the entire problem domain for this to make sense.
<wasabi> mjg59: I'm thinking about the case of how third party software (closed source perhaps) might distribute .deb files for use on Ubuntu in a way as to ensure their customers have the best experience.
<wasabi> That is, their software has been tested on feisty, but they aren't willing to commit to running it on gutsy, yet.
<mjg59> wasabi: No, there's no mechanism for doing that, and we won't add one
<mjg59> You can check /etc/lsb-release at runtime and warn the user that it's unsupported
<wasabi> Hmm.
<wasabi> Yeah, that's probably a decent way. Do you see what I'm trying to accomplish though? I'd like the update manager to tell the user he can't update to gutsy until he addresses the closed source package.
<wasabi> As in, either updates it to a version that supports gutsy, or removes it.
<mjg59> No, that's the wrong solution
<mjg59> There's no plausible way for an application to only work on feisty unless it fails to declare its depends properly or unless we've screwed up
<wasabi> Sure there is.
<wasabi> Consider vmware.
<mjg59> That's not a feisty/gutsy issue.
<wasabi> Hmm perhaps.
<wasabi> You're right.
<mjg59> I can replace the kernel on feisty
<Amaranth> you can use the feisty kernel on gutsy too
<wasabi> Yeah, okay, you win there.
<mjg59> Yeah
<wasabi> I guess it'd be fine if I could believe Ubuntu would never break ABI or something. =)
<mjg59> One thing we could do would be to have the kernel do Provides: vmware-modules
<mjg59> Or something
<mjg59> And then have vmware depend on that
<wasabi> Eh. Vmware's software would not be able to alter your packages.
<wasabi> At least, that's my assumption.
<mjg59> Correct
<mjg59> It's a change we'd have to make
<wasabi> Hmm. So I guess VMware would need runtime logic to detect the missing modules and install the appropiate package.
<wasabi> That's really the only solution I can see.
<mjg59> No?
<wasabi> Well, how would it then?
<mjg59> Well, sure, for the current versions we're boned
<wasabi> What would you suggest going forward then?
<mjg59> Enhance our kernel packages to provide: the functionality they provide that other things may depend on
<wasabi> I don't see how that helps.
<mjg59> Oh, wait. We do that already.
<wasabi> Uh huh.
<mjg59> wasabi: So vmware does depends: vmware-modules
<wasabi> Okay, let me rephrase my question.
<wasabi> I'm talking from teh POV of Joe Blow ISV.
<wasabi> I have some software I want to distribute for Ubuntu.
<wasabi> I'm not going to be able to convinc eyou guys to add stuff to your kernel packages.
<mjg59> If you depend on a specific kernel module ABI, then yes, it is
<wasabi> Well, VMware again is the best case.
<wasabi> I doubt you'll want to add their kernel modules to your packages.
<wasabi> I doubt they'd want you to... as it would mean they couldn't deploy updates.
<mjg59> Right. So, where do the modules come from?
<wasabi> VMware's own apt repository.
<mjg59> So I'm struggling to see the issue
<mjg59> If the user has the correct modules and kernel installed, they can run vmware
<mjg59> So vmware should just depend on them
<wasabi> Uh huh. Which correct ones?
<mjg59> Whichever ones the package requires
<wasabi> If feisty has 3 kernel versions available. I need 3 module packages available.
<mjg59> No. The user could boot any one of them.
<mjg59> You only need one of them.
<wasabi> Yeah, exactly.
<wasabi> Eh?
<mjg59> If I have 2.6.20 and 2.6.22 installed, I only need vmware modules for one of them
<mjg59> Because if I want to run vmware, I can reboot into 2.6.20
<wasabi> No, you need vmware modules for whichever you want to use at the given time.
<mjg59> No.
<wasabi> Wait you're suggesting we force users to reboot into old feisty kernel versions?
<wasabi> That's silly.
<mjg59> No, I'm saying they can reboot into an old version
<mjg59> So it's a runtime issue, not a package dependency
<wasabi> I know that.
<wasabi> Which is why I originally suggested that the vmware program At Runtime, detect that you're missing the modules for whatever kernel you're running.
<mjg59> Ah, right. That's an orthogonal issue.
<mjg59> You should still have the dependency in the packaging system
<wasabi> Oh, yes. The specific Vmware-modules packages should depend on the specific Ubuntu kernel package.
<mjg59> But yes, beyond that it's a runtime concern
<wasabi> And VMware should depend on something all 3 provide.
<wasabi> But at runtime a bit of checking has to go into making sure they are actually installed.
<wasabi> Okay, kernel modules probably aren't the best example to start this off with.
<mjg59> Well, whether or not /dev/vmware exists
<mjg59> Or vmmon, or whatever it is
<wasabi> Yeah. Whatever.
 * mjg59 goes to change session
<wasabi> My main concern is how to properly instruct the user that he should not update to gutsy until he updates some program.
<wasabi> Or simply not to, and let his program break.
<wasabi> There is sort of a dependency between a piece of software and 'gutsy'. The dependency exists because Ubuntu has committed to 6 month stable releases. It's provided something to depend on.
<sladen> there's the kernel abi-versioning dependances that red-hat use
<traene> Hi. I am looking for help for file locking.
<Chipzz> traene: please read topic
<traene> sry
<gribouille> hi
<gribouille> why isn't there a Contents-i386.gz file in http://archive.canonical.com/ubuntu/dists/gutsy/ ?
<Riddell> mjg59: about?
<mjg59> Riddell: Yo
<Riddell> able to join us in room A briefly?
<mjg59> Sure
<mjg59> Give me a sec
<Adri2000> soren: now pbuilder builds successfully
<soren> Adri2000: You are right. I'll upload later today.
<Burgundavia> keybuk_: I don;t seem to be included ont eh agenda. Can you pull a new csv from LP?
<Burgundavia> the attendees
<tuxmaster1988> Does the ATI X1300 have hardware acceleration under ubuntu?
<sharkp> hi
<sharkp> Maybe I've found a bug in the kernelÃ¹
<sharkp> I've a laptop with two sata hd+
<sharkp> but I can't see (on gutsy) them
<sharkp> I think there's a problem between kernel and sata controller
<sharkp> and I need to know how module I have to load manually
<sharkp> would you see my lshw?
<sharkp> oh, guys, here we are in 244
<sharkp> isn't there anyone who reply me?
<slangasek> this is not a user support channel; see the topic and ask in #ubuntu?
<sharkp> slangasek:  I can read
<sharkp> IMO it's a bug
<Burgundavia> this is also not a bug support channel
<Burgundavia> if it si bug, it goes int eh bug tracker
<sharkp> and, always IMO, this is a developement chanmnelÃ¹
<Burgundavia> if you have a solution for the bug, please include that in the bug
<sharkp> Burgundavia: is it so expensive for you to reply me?
<sharkp> and to know my problem?
<slangasek> "how do I load a module" is not a development question, nor is "what information do you need for a bug report"
<sharkp> ok, I've understood this is a nerd-chan
<sharkp> Excuse me for my noob opinion
<sharkp> good work
<Burgundavia> that was fun
<Burgundavia> hey jo
<Burgundavia> jono:
<slangasek> I wonder if nerd-chan is anything like Super Milk-Chan
<Burgundavia> can I be part of that?
<Burgundavia> I feel very left out
<Pici> Ugh.  I told him to ask about the issue in #ubuntu. Not come bother people in #ubuntu-devel.
<slangasek> Pici: well we're not particularly bothered, but everyone's at UDS and he's not going to /find/ the help he needs in here right now no matter how much he insists :)
<lool> Are recommends honored when germinating?
<Skiessi> can someone update libtorrent10 and rtorrent packages of the hardy repository? or should I ask in #ubuntu-motu?
 * ogra1 wonders if hardy is actually in a usable state yet
<Skiessi> I'm using feisty, gutsy and hardy repositories and it's working great
 * ogra1 shudders
<Burgundavia> Skiessi: please don't recommend such ideas
<Skiessi> I don't recommend such ideas
<Skiessi> at least not for developers
<Mithrandir> StevenK: can you give me a sloccount of modest?
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Er, sure.
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC)                = 53,329
<wasabi> Frickin'. /.ing launchpad.
<Keybuk> ;)
<Keybuk> I blame ubuntu-demon
<superm1> Keybuk, is it too late to regenerate the schedule for the rest of the night?  bryce updated his spec to be 'drafting' now
<wasabi> And finding somebody to blame is the most satisfying solution!
<Keybuk> superm1: yes
<superm1> :(
<Mithrandir> StevenK: ok, thanks.  That's not that bad..
<coder> hi
<soren> Adri2000: I haven't forgotten, by the way... :)
<Mithrandir> hm, why does bzr say 'No loggers found for logger "bzr"' when I commit something?
<davf_> Can anyone tell me how I can patch just one kernel module without having to recompile the whole kernel?
<Keybuk> mjg59: still hasn't gone up ;)
<davf_> ?
<jonmasters> sladen: ping
<davf_> Can anyone tell me how I can patch just one kernel module without having to recompile the whole kernel?
<sladen> jonmasters: hi capt fat
<sladen> hile:
<davf_> Please?
<jonmasters> sladen: you in town?
<sladen> jonmasters: ABI versioning came up earlier, if BenC is aorund, that might be something to discuss
<jonmasters> davf_: do you have a kernel source tree prebuilt, or not?
<sladen> jonmasters: yes, one street away from you MUWAHAHAHAH
<warsocket> I promised this to the head of PackageKit to ask you guys this question
<warsocket> so here it goues: What do you guys think about checkinstall;
<jonmasters> sladen: I have some stuff to get done tonight debugging something, but it'd be nice to say hi. Are you around now?
<sladen> jonmasters: however, after just 5 meals at this hotel, I can tell why all americans I somewhat large
<davf_> jonmasters: I just installed gutsy on this machine and started d/l kernel build packages
<sladen> jonmasters: for some value of round.
<jonmasters> sladen: I'm 164lbs now.
<jonmasters> sladen: size 29". I was size 38" when I moved here and when you last saw me.
<jonmasters> sladen: shall I head over and say hello now?
<davf_> jonmasters: last time I did this for Feisty I rebuilt the kernel but I don't remember what I did and I want to avoid doing the same thing again if pos.
<jonmasters> davf_: you can hack the source for a given module, make sure the .config is in place (do an make oldconfig if needed) then run make against just a given directory.
<jonmasters> make drivers/path/to/foo/foo.ko
<jonmasters> sladen: are you at the hotel now?
<sladen> jonmasters: we should finished at 18:00
<sladen> jonmasters: if you waddle your 82kg into a car and drive down the block you should have found somewhere to park by that time
<davf_> jonmasters: ok so I got build-essentials linux-source and kernel-package. Any thing else?
<davf_> jonmasters: btw what is the source dir?
<davf_> jonmasters: nevermind found it.
<davf_> jonmasters: so I need to untar linux-source where it is yea?
<bddebian> Heya
<lamego> hey bd
<bddebian> Hi lam
<bddebian> Grr, lamego
<lamego> :P
<davf_> jonmasters: so to do the make on a patched module only when I type make in that dir it says no targets. what should the target name be (recompilig zd1211rw)
<davf_> Or if anyone else can advise?
<davf_> Anyone can help me. I just want to "make" one kernel module that I needed to patch how do I do it?
<davf_> I did make oldconfig
<davf_> went to the dir and tried make and got no target
<mekius> Hi, working on a custom live cd, I updated the kernel that sits in the squashfs and attempted to copy the kernel and initrd to the live cd in /casper/vmlinuz and /casper/initrd.gz respectively, but the initrd doesn't seem to contain the squashfs module.  I looked in /lib/module/2.6.22-14-generic/ and there is an ubuntu dir and that has the squashfs module in it, but this doesn't get pulled into the initrd image, any pointers?
<tekteen> can someone help me with my preseed file? It does not answer the questions but I do not get an error that it can't find the preseed. The file is pasted at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/42757/
<tekteen> can someone help me with my preseed file? It does not answer the questions but I do not get an error that it can't find the preseed. The file is pasted at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/42757/
#ubuntu-devel 2007-10-31
<Hobbsee> err.  who's responsible for the example content on the live cds and installed system?
<tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: The four people listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ExampleContent might be a good-ish start, although the package maintainer is listed as ArtworkTeam, and some of those folks (eg Jane) aren't around anymore, so I'm not sure.
<tonyyarusso> s/four/three/
<Hobbsee> mmm, OK
<Hobbsee> looks like the speex file wont actually play on a default ubuntu install
<pwnguin> Maintainer: Ubuntu Artwork Team <ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com>
<pwnguin> would be a good place to hit i think
<Hobbsee> hm, OK
<Hobbsee> oh, you can force open it - apparently it has the wrong suffix
<Hobbsee> okay, do we have a feed reader that *doesnt* suck?
<Hobbsee> liferea keeps marking my feeds as new
<Hobbsee> and i cant delete the articles, as it just redownloads them again, and marks them as new
<Fujitsu> /win/win 8
<Fujitsu> Oops.
<ajmitch> you won?
<RAOF> Everyone won!
<ajmitch> Hobbsee: google reader
<Fujitsu> ajmitch: I did.
<pwnguin> any idea which files to look at to determine which ubuntu release was used to install?
<ajmitch> pwnguin: /etc/lsb-release, which the lsb_release tool looks at
<pwnguin> isnt that the current version?
<Fujitsu> ajmitch: That changes on upgrades.
<pwnguin> i had just been using an oldest file on FS heuristic
<pwnguin> but i figure there might be something in /var/log
<ajmitch> Fujitsu: right, I was thinking he meant the current release, sorry
<pwnguin> hmm. from /var/log/syslog: May  8 06:00:09 (none) syslog.warn klogd: Linux version 2.6.8.1-3-386 (buildd@terranova) (gcc version 3.3.4 (Debian 1:3.3.4-9ubuntu5)) #1 Tue Oct 12 12:41:57 BST 2004
<Fujitsu> Nice and old.
<Fujitsu> Hoary?
<pwnguin> im thinking warty
<Fujitsu> Dapper was .12.
<Fujitsu> I think Breezy was .10.
 * Fujitsu checks.
<pwnguin> grep Warty questions.dat  cdname = Ubuntu 4.10 "Warty Warthog" - Preview i386 Binary-1 (20041020)
<Fujitsu> Aha.
<Fujitsu> Nice.
<pwnguin> runs gutsy now
<Fujitsu> Oops, Dapper was .15.
<zul> breezy was .12
<Fujitsu> Yeah.
<Fujitsu> I knew one of them was .12.
<zul> hoary was .10
<pwnguin> all i know is that /var/log/debian-installer doesn't even exist on my laptop
 * zul should know I did kernel security patches for those kernels at one point
<pwnguin> brutal
<ajmitch> zul: but you had so much fun doing it
<Ahmuck> !package
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about package - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<Ahmuck> !deb
<ubotu> deb is the Debian package format, also used by Ubuntu. To install .deb files, simply double-click on them (Ubuntu) or right-click and select Kubuntu Package Menu->install (Kubuntu)
<Ahmuck> !apt
<ubotu> APT is the Advanced Package Tool, which together with dpkg forms the basic Ubuntu package management toolkit. Short apt-get manual: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptGetHowto - Also see !Synaptic (Gnome) or !Adept (KDE)
<Hobbsee> !msgthebot
<ubotu> Please investigate with me only in /msg or in #ubuntu-bots (type also /msg ubotu Bot). Also avoid adding joke/useless factoids. Abusing the channel bots will only result in angry ops...
<Burgundavia> Mithrandir: http://risujin.org/cellwriter/
<pwnguin> neat
<pwnguin> Burgundavia: how old is that?
<Burgundavia> very youung
<Keybuk> Burgundavia: you can't be that young
<Keybuk> you were young in Mataro
<Burgundavia> I am still young
<pwnguin> hmm. indeed, its in debian as of september
<Burgundavia> it looks interesting as a target for the mobile people
<pwnguin> heck, it looks interesting as a target for my tablet
<Burgundavia> that too
<Keybuk> dasher++
 * popey had fun with lowfat on his laptop today
<popey> well, to be fair maclosw had fun with it
<popey> near wet himself
<pwnguin> dasher's neat, but its not very well integrated
<Burgundavia> dasher rocks
<pwnguin> TIP rocks. dasher is merely neat, unless you happen to fit one of the categories they designed it for
<pwnguin> wth
<pwnguin> the debian cellwriter package depends on hurd
<Fujitsu> pwnguin: Only on hurd-i386.
<Fujitsu> But one would think hurd would be Essential on such an arch, anyway.
<ion_> Cellwriter seems nice. (This was written with it.)
<pwnguin> you just install the debian version, or sync it?
<ion_> I just installed the deb from the programâs website.
<ion_> And now i removed it, since i donât have a touchscreen. :-)
<pwnguin> ive got a wacom
<ion_> I should buy one some day.
<ion_> A wacom, that is.
<pwnguin> it came with the laptop
<pwnguin> not cheap btw
<Ahmuck> wacom are about 70.00
<pwnguin> they're a lot more if you want one build into the screen with a capable 3d GPU
<pwnguin> mostly because the market is smaller i guess
<ion_> Iâll be happy with the cheapest wacom pad available. :-)
<ion_> One built into a TFT screen would be awesome, of course, but i rather put my money to things like food. ;-)
<pwnguin> the cheap pads dont have displays integrated
<Ahmuck> wacom bamboo - 70.00, though i would recommend the wacom bamboo fun
<slangasek> StevenK: hah, dexter singled you out as having a vendetta against yada? :)
<StevenK> So it would seem.
<ajmitch> poor yada
<ajmitch> so sad & unloved
<StevenK> Poor me
<Keybuk> http://quest.netsplit.com/~scott/uds-boston-2007/2007-10-31/index.html
<Keybuk> err
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> >>> from pytz import timezone
<Keybuk> >>> tz = timezone("US/Eastern")
<Keybuk> >>> tz._utcoffset
<Keybuk> datetime.timedelta(-1, 68400)
<Keybuk> >>> 68400 / 3600
<Keybuk> 19
<Keybuk> GRR @ PYTHON
<pwnguin> Cellwriter is verra nice. It's even instrumented to tell how long a given character took to recognize
<ion_> Iâd like it to have a hybird input+learning mode. When you draw a letter, it could automatically add what you drew to the letter it came up with (or what you chose to correct it).
<pwnguin> it does
<pwnguin> right click
<ion_> Ok, neat.
<pwnguin> its also not clear, but training takes more than one entry
<ion_> How is right click related?
<pwnguin> as you write, the character gets darker
<pwnguin> ion_: if you right click on a cell, it brings up a correction menu
<ion_> Yes.
<pwnguin> if you make a correction, it takes that into consideration
<pwnguin> the paper said it discards all the higher strokes it found
<ion_> Nope, it doesnât seem to learn when drawing characters in input mode.
<pwnguin> well, I'd have to review the code, but there's definately a "train on input" option
<havoque>  is there some boot parameter that should be entered at the gutsy install prompt to force the use of old pata drivers, because with the default install options the new libata subsystem loads, thus treating my hdd as sda instead of hda, and imposes a limit of 15 partitions, i have 20, and want to install gutsy in hda17(/) and hda 18 (/home)?
<ion_> Ok, it seems to learn when pressing enter. I didnât test that.
<pwnguin> hmm
<pwnguin> interesting
<havoque> i really don't know where to ask this question
<pwnguin> ion_: that should probably be fixed =/ along with the docking mode
<pwnguin> fullscreen'd apps should really respect the lower dock
<ion_> I donât think itâs wrong to defer the learning until enter is hit.
<pwnguin> well, its not exactly obvious ;)
<pwnguin> are there any handwriting fonts like comic sans without the stigma?
<havoque> anyone?
<pwnguin> havoque: most developers are at MIT right now sleeping
<ion_> It also might be a good idea to have an initial set of learned data for each character. Using the train-while-inputting mode, the userâs handwriting style should override any differences quicly.
<havoque> sorry, didn't realize the huge time difference between here and "there"
<pwnguin> havoque: its 6am there. in a few hours or so you might get a bite, or try #ubuntu
<pwnguin> ion_: theres only one developer that I can see, and that makes sense, but its only been out for a month or so.
<havoque> i'll check back later, thanx
<ion_> pwnguin: CellWriter really should add a new input row one character sooner, in case the user wants to input a space as the rowâs last character.
<pitti> Good morning
<Hobbsee> guten morgen pitti!  Wie gehts?
<pitti> Hobbsee: wohooo! Much better, thanks!
<pitti> Hobbsee: und Du?
<Hobbsee> pitti: too much bier?
<Hobbsee> pitti: gut.  upgraded to hardy.
<Hobbsee> don't know if i should reboot :)
<pitti> Hobbsee: oh, adventurous
<Hobbsee> hehe :)
<Hobbsee> i did for gutsy too - and that really was adventurous, as there was no wired connection :)
<sbalneav> bier?  Lets hope not! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bier
<Hobbsee> haha
<Hobbsee> die Deutsch Bier!
<pitti> Hobbsee: "Das deutsche Bier" :)
<Hobbsee_> ruddy thing.
<Hobbsee_> gah!!!
<Hobbsee> sbalneav: how much got thru?
<Hobbsee> morning seb128.  you havent broken enough.
<Amaranth> Hobbsee: don't worry, I will
<seb128> hi Hobbsee
<seb128> Hobbsee: broken what?
<Hobbsee> Amaranth: :P
<Hobbsee> hiya seb128
<Hobbsee> seb128: well, when upgrading to hardy, i expect *something* to break.
<seb128> Hobbsee: maybe you might make this something be KDE? ;-)
<Hobbsee> seb128: eparse.
<seb128> Hobbsee: maybe you can make this something be KDE? ;-)
 * seb128 needs coffee
<Hobbsee> seb128: ahhh.
<Hobbsee> seb128: i dont think Riddell would be very happy
<jdong> KoffEE?
 * Hobbsee ntoes that's a *really* weird sentence construct.
<Amaranth> jdong: when are you going to come over here?
<jdong> Amaranth: how about after I fail my exam today and finish my homework due Friday tonight? :)
<seb128> Hobbsee: weird like in incorrect or non common? ;-)
<Hobbsee> seb128: non-common.  it's still correct.
<Amaranth> jdong: If you're going to fail just skip it. ;)
<jdong> Amaranth: lol, this is chemistry, not the Compiz blacklist :)
<seb128> Hobbsee: ok ;-)
<Hobbsee> guten morgen, dholbach
<dholbach> hey Hobbsee
<dholbach> Hobbsee: how are you doing?
 * Hobbsee throws spam at jsgotangco
<Hobbsee> dholbach: good.  upgraded to hardy.  worked on assignment.
<dholbach> Hobbsee: rock on!
 * dholbach hugs Hobbsee
 * Hobbsee hugs dholbach
<jsgotangco> :P
<wshaddix> is ath5k in the backports repo for gutsy yet?
<imbrandon> someone kick jono and tell him to speak-up
<imbrandon> *please*
<imbrandon> jcastro ^^
<jono> imbrandon: will do
<imbrandon> :)
<^robertj> is the hwdb working ?i've just checked a few random entries and none are showing cpu/memory
<zul> hey BenC
<BenC> hey
<imbrandon> jono, http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<desrt> jamiemcc; hey
<jamiemcc> hi desrt
<desrt> jamiemcc; rob just proposed a tracker review spec at UDS
<jamiemcc> review?
<desrt> jamiemcc; might want to keep your eye on the schedule and considering voiping in for that one
<desrt> jamiemcc; just a "how is it working out?" type thing
<jamiemcc> ah right
<desrt> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/tracker-review
<jamiemcc> desrt: sounds good - thx
<soren> I got a Reject e-mail about a package I have no recollection of attempting to upload.. Has anyone else seen this?
 * ^robertj fantasizes about using nautilus to search for top highest mtimes
<Hobbsee> soren: to ppa?
<Hobbsee> soren: for a group you belong to?
<soren> Hobbsee: Nono, Ubuntu proper.
<Hobbsee> soren: odd.
<soren> Quite
<soren> It claimed that I attempted to upload the Debian versio nof signing-party and now rejects it, because it's already in Ubuntu (due to auto-sync, probably)
<Hobbsee> right...
<soren> Hobbsee: Ah, I may have filed a sync-request for it.
<Kmos> how about "requestsync" to add tag "sync" automatically when filed a bug report ?
<soren> Hobbsee: I suppose if someone attempted to sync it twice, this is what would happen.
<Hobbsee> soren: i think they tried to ack them twice.
<Hobbsee> Kmos: what's the point?
<Kmos> Hobbsee: when search for "sync" in LP to get all of them
 * Hobbsee wonders why you want to
<Hobbsee> can tags even be done by email now?
<Kmos> Hobbsee: need to check that first, i just want to know first
<pitti> StevenK: /usr/bin/ubuntu-bug
<Kmos> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags -> doesn't have "sync" tag anymore listed
<StevenK> pitti: Ah
<Hobbsee> which means that it's a not a valid tag anymore.
<Kmos> yeah
<Kmos> so forget :)
<sridhar> hi everbody, I need to create live come install CD for our distro which is based on debian, but iam following the procedure of "https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization", but iam getiing error, while loading kernel " /init: .: 163: Can't open /scripts/casper  Kernel panic - not syncing: Attempted to kill init!" plz
<tobias_> Anyone working on the merges for hardy yet?
<Keybuk> tobias_: many people
<tobias_> Keybuk: Great! I assumed eerybody to be at the devsumit:-)
<bddebian> Heya
<Keybuk> we are
<Hobbsee> most of you are, anyway :P
<tobias_> Ah, so everybody is busy with other stuff.
<tobias_> Hobbsee: They did not invite you?
<Hobbsee> tobias_: they did, but i turned it down due to a complicated uni subject that i'm taking this semester, which i'm hating :(
 * tobias_ comforts Hobbsee.
<gdiebel> Someone here that uses thunderbird please answer a question: Does it work with auto offline backend? What I mean is if you pull your network cable or disconnect from wireless while tb is in online mode, does it detect the change and switch over to offline mode? It works this way in windows and the code is supposed to work in linux, with a necko component that talks to networkmanager. The implementation bug is closed so pe
 * Hobbsee checks topic, and notes that gdiebel got cut off
<pitti> mjg59: ah, wrt. hal doc symlinks: the current cdbs is correct, the upgrade just breaks because in gutsy someone symlinked the *entire* doc directory across packages (which is evil); I'll fix that in a preinst
<pitti> mjg59: thanks for pointing that out
<mjg59> pitti: Sweet, thanks
<bddebian> pitti: Do you happen to have any special affinity for clanbomber?
<pitti> bddebian: well, I'm still the official Debian maintainer for it
<pitti> bddebian: unfortunately upstream pretty much stopped developing it
<bddebian> pitti: Aye, that's why I am asking.  Do you have any interest in moving maintainership to the Debian Games Team?
<bddebian> Also, do you happen to know if it builds with the newer clanlib 0.8 ?
<pitti> bddebian: oh, not at all
<pitti> bddebian: hm, I don't think I tried it with 0.8
<bddebian> pitti: Well it hasn't been uploaded yet because of clanbomber, pingus, and epiphany
<pitti> bddebian: if you want to move it to alioth and change Maintainer: etc. to the team, please go ahead
<pitti> bddebian: I might not have time to do this in this week, due to UDS and all that
<soren> jdong: Could you pass me the link to the pbuilder patch again, please?
<bddebian> pitti: Great, I'll play around with it and ping you whenever I have a package and such, thanks
<pitti> bddebian: awesome, thanks
<jdong> soren: bug 157867
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 157867 in pbuilder "pdebuild-internal broken when XSBC-Orig-Maintainer used because of faulty sed command" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/157867
<soren> jdong: Thanks very much. I'll upload in a few minutes.
<soren> No, really.
<jdong> soren: no, thank _you_ :)
 * soren have only just now realised that it's an SRU
 * soren grumbles
<Hobbsee> hehe
<Hobbsee> you and i share the same opinion of SRU's, it seems
<jdong> soren: meh apply the patch to Hardy first, since it's easier
<jdong> soren: as far as the SRU it'd be nice but not required
<soren> jdong: It would have to be applied to Hardy, I guess.
<soren> first, that is.
<jdong> soren: I think I (backports/prevu) am the only one who uses pdebuild-internal anyway, so I can just have hardy pbuilder backported
<soren> that would be much appreciated.
<jdong> soren: sure thing; I understand SRU for main can be a royal pain
<soren> This is fun. 0.174ubuntu2 is timestamped earlier than 0.174ubuntu1 now. Meh.
<jdong> soren: also, I'm grossly phobic of the Debian BTS, could you be so kind as to forward this to Debian?
<soren> jdong: Sure.
<jdong> thanks
<soren> I share your phobia, though.
<lool> Did some people have success in dist-upgrading to hardy?  Would it be crazy to do so now?
<soren> lool: You're still on gutsy?!?! Sheesh!
<Mithrandir> lool: you're french, you're crazy already. :-P
<persia> lool: The trick is to upgrade when the archive is still frozen: that way there's no problems to encounter
<Hobbsee> lool: i had success
<Hobbsee> lool: only thing that's broken appears to be software sources, due to no distribution template.
<freeflying> Hobbsee: so brave :)
 * lool puts his French hat on, hugs Hobbsee and goes dist upgrading
 * Hobbsee hugs lool back
<Hobbsee> freeflying: i did for gutsy too.  but that was more risky, without a wired connection
<`23meg> Hobbsee, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=598387
<Hobbsee> `23meg: sounds useful
<`23meg> Hobbsee, if enough people join in, yes
<`23meg> Hobbsee, we can have "hug weeks" of sorts, focusing on different areas in each
<Hobbsee> no, if they're joining and participating *well*
<soren> jdong: Pushed to hardy, and filed in bts. Thanks.
<soren> jdong: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=448757 for reference.
<Mithrandir> StevenK: do you have your modest packaging somewhere?
<Hobbsee> uh oh, sabdfl here.  everyone behave!
<slangasek> sabdfl: behave
<Hobbsee> dholbach: heya, when do you want to discuss the sponsorship queue?
<liw> beehive? everyone wear a net!
 * Hobbsee cowers under a rock
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Yes. On my home machine. :-)
<dholbach> Hobbsee: I'm in a session right now. what do you want to discuss about it?
<Hobbsee> dholbach: oh, you're in the community one?  right.
<Hobbsee> dholbach: the handing of it over to you.
<dholbach> Hobbsee: it will always be a thing we have to attack as a team
<dholbach> Hobbsee: I certainly spend time on it, but I can't be the SPOF for that one
<pipegeek> Hi, folks
<Hobbsee> dholbach: SPOF?
<dholbach> single point of failure
 * persia notes that Hobbsee is likely speaking about administration, rather than actual sponsoring
<Hobbsee> ah, right
<Hobbsee> dholbach: sure, but i fully intend to deactivate myself after losing admin rights, so that'll be up to you and the rest of the team
 * Hobbsee can continue doing mailing list admin, no problem
 * dholbach hugs Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> but, i dont relaly want to be on that sponsors list.
<dholbach> thanks for your work on that
<Mithrandir> StevenK: could you put it in a tarfile on teh intarweb somewhere?
<StevenK> Mithrandir: I could.
<Mithrandir> StevenK: thanks. :-)
<dholbach> Hobbsee: once the dust settles here a bit, I'll definitely start a new call for help on it
<Hobbsee> dholbach: you're welcome.  but i've had more than enough of it, i'm afraid.
<pipegeek> I seem to remember there was a but in network-manager-pptp in feisty, that caused atypical dns configurations to break.  Particularly, if DNS peering was disabled for a connection, network-manager would overwrite /etc/resolv.conf with a blank file until the tunnel was disconnected
<Hobbsee> particularly as the S/N ratio has decreased
<pipegeek> I just checked.... it seems to still be that way in gutsy.  Why?
<dholbach> Hobbsee: that's fine, it's great you helped out so long
<pipegeek> or am I missing something
<pipegeek> err, a bug
<pipegeek> not a butt
<Hobbsee> dholbach: when's the next MC meeting?
<tobias_> pipegeek: Probably because nobody found the time to fix it:-(
 * Hobbsee has now read email
<pipegeek> sad -.-
<StevenK> dholbach: I suspect I will step down from UUS adminshp too
<tobias_> pipegeek: Yes, I agree. My pet bugs were not fixed either;-)
<pipegeek> mayhaps I should try 'n submit a patch
<Hobbsee> StevenK: sheesh, double bad news for the day
<dholbach> Hobbsee: I sent a mail to all the members
<pipegeek> if it hasn't already been fixed upstream
<Hobbsee> StevenK: next you're going to tell him that it's flooded?
<tobias_> pipegeek: That does help sometimes.
<Hobbsee> dholbach: how?
<Mithrandir> lool: I tested hildon-desktop, stuff does not seem to have blown up.
<dholbach> Hobbsee: hm?
<Hobbsee> dholbach: what did you use to send the mail?  mailing list?
<dholbach> Hobbsee: all the members of the MC about the meeting time
<tobias_> pipegeek: I'd wait for the debian merge though. Maybe they have fixed it already.
<Hobbsee> dholbach: ah right
<StevenK> Oh yeah, now I'll tell dholbach his hotel room is flooded
<dholbach> StevenK: let's talk about it in the corridor
<pipegeek> tobias_: not terribly familiar with the inner workings of ubuntu.... does this mean wait for hardy?
<StevenK> dholbach: I'm in session right now
<norsetto> Any core-dev with some time to spare, pls. have a look at bug 136634. It contains an SRU proposal for a package in main. Thank you
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 136634 in libcompress-zlib-perl "Unable to download packages using Gutsy debmirror" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/136634
<dholbach> StevenK: yeah, when we meet, not now :)
<tobias_> pipegeek: Nope. First thing each release is to sync with debian.
<norsetto> Hi dholbach :-)
<pipegeek> aaah
<dholbach> heya norsetto
<pipegeek> figured that happened before
<StevenK> Mithrandir: http://wedontsleep.org/~steven/modest/
<tobias_> pipegeek: No, that is happening right now.
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Mostly based on upstreams crappy packaging.
<tobias_> Once that is done is a great time to send in patches.
<dholbach> bbl
<pipegeek> this confuses me---so, ubuntu releases, but then changes all the package versions by syncing to debian?
 * Hobbsee unmoderates stuff on ubuntu-devel again
<pipegeek> bah, google and the ubuntu wiki will help ease my confusion
<pipegeek> thanks, tobias_
<tobias_> pipegeek: gutsy was released. Now everything is synced from debian into hardy. Once that is done the stuff will get stabilized and then released.
<pipegeek> aaaaah
<pipegeek> so we *are* talking about hardy
<tobias_> pipegeek: Yes. Getting changes into a released version seems to be challenging;-)
<pipegeek> hehe
<pipegeek> understandable
<pipegeek> 'specially when they're potentially security-bug inducing
<dholbach> see you later
 * tobias_ heads home. See you.
<lool> Mithrandir: Was this on upgrade or a fresh image?
<lool> Mithrandir: Both are supposed to work, but I'm interested in hearing about upgrades going fine; the ~/.osso copy is something we need to be aware of: we're committing to support whatever people end up with therein forever
<Riddell> bryyce: can you remind me where the bullet proof X script is?
<Riddell> or bryce as appropriate
 * lool dist-upgrade to hardy without any issue yet
<Solarion> can anyone verify this bug: in bc, divide 4048 by 412
<Solarion> erm, 512
<lool> Solarion: So what?
<Solarion> lool: what do you get?
<lool> Solarion: 7
<lool> Solarion: You want scale=6 first, or 4096 I guess
<elmo> Solarion: bc -l
<Solarion> heh
<Mithrandir> lool: upgrade, this is my Q1 with loads of stuff on it
<lool> Mithrandir: Great news then
<lool> Mithrandir: I think you can push it to hardy then if you have some minuets
<Solarion> I'm just stupid; nm
<Riddell> bryyce: found it in /etc/gdm/failsafeXServer
<StevenK> Mithrandir: News about modest changing, give me about ten
<Mithrandir> woo
<Burgundavia> Mithrandir: did you get my link last night?
<Mithrandir> Burgundavia: I did, thanks.
<Burgundavia> no problem
<Mithrandir> Burgundavia: seems like it needs a bit of love to be a hildon input method, but that should be doable.
<Burgundavia> yep
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Mirror at home exploded, ten is more like thirty
<Mithrandir> StevenK: no problem
<Mithrandir> well, sure, no problem for me, that is
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Can you hand me some gaffa tape? :-)
<Mithrandir> StevenK: HTH, HAND
<tonyyarusso> doko, cjwatson_ : Would you be willing to reconsider Bug #34961?  While I understand that it is more convenient for new home users who want to share a file with their brother or something, convenience for the uninformed user doesn't sound like the usual criteria applied for security-related decisions.  I can confirm that reasonably competent users are not always aware that this is the case, since I just pointed it out to one, and caus
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 34961 in adduser "Deny read access to other users' home directories by default" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/34961
<Riddell> pitti: new kdesudo in gutsy-proposed for your approval
<Riddell> bug 155032
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 155032 in kdesudo "kdesu ownership change" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/155032
<pitti> Riddell: ok; I'll do a SRU session later today
<norsetto> pitti: I don't know if you saw my previous message, but please consider bug 136634 too in the SRU session
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 136634 in libcompress-zlib-perl "Unable to download packages using Gutsy debmirror" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/136634
<pitti> norsetto: I'll consider everything that's pending in the queues
<norsetto> pittI: well, unless someone uploads it it will not be pending then ;-)
<pitti> norsetto: hm, then better find a sponsor soon :) (sorry, I'm in a meeting now)
<norsetto> pitti: sure,np,thats why I pinged here hoping to find a good soul ......
<sladen> calc: http://tukaani.org/lzma/benchmarks
<LaserJock> norsetto: what do you need?
<pitti> norsetto: was it that debmirror SRU?
<norsetto> I need a core-dev to have a llok at bug 136634 and eventually sponsor the debdiff to gutsy-proposed
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 136634 in libcompress-zlib-perl "Unable to download packages using Gutsy debmirror" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/136634
<norsetto> pitti: yes
<pitti> norsetto: oh, I'll love you SOO much if you get that fixed!
<pitti> norsetto: this has bitten me as well
<norsetto> pitti: well, its fixed, I have it working on my pc :-)
<LaserJock> pitti: do you have time to sponsor it?
<pitti> norsetto: ok, patch manglified for SRU and approved
<pitti> norsetto: can you tweak the changelog to be human readable, too?
<pitti> norsetto: the solution explanation is fine, but it should also explain the impact
<pitti> norsetto: like "Fixes debmirror blabla"
<pitti> norsetto: I can sponsor it in a bit, yes
<norsetto> pitti: sure
<pitti> norsetto: btw, exceptionally good SRU request
<norsetto> pitti: thanks :-)
<pitti> Riddell: btw, do you know about the kdevelop gutsy-proposed upload? changelog does not have a LP bug and the change does not really look SRU worthy
<pitti> Riddell: kdesudo accepted, thank you
<Riddell> pitti: fooey, it should be bug 156654
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 156654 in kdevelop "UI Lag in 3.5" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156654
<Riddell> thanks
<calc> sladen: thx
<Riddell> pitti: unresponsive UI should be SRU worthy?
<pitti> Riddell: the changelog didn't make it sound that bad, and I didn't have other data
<Riddell> there's no upstream bug which is a paid for paper trail
<pitti> Riddell: ok, fair enough
<Riddell> s/paid/pain/
<Riddell> pitti: should I reupload with the LP bug in the changelog?
<pitti> Riddell: too late, nevermind
<Riddell> ok
<pitti> oh, universe
<pitti> norsetto: I'm through with all other SRU stuff, I could do the sponsoring now
<liw> pitti, norsetto: oh, this is the debmirror problem? yay! getting that fixed will help my QA work (I run my mirror on Debian at the moment and it makes things slightly more complicated)
<pitti> liw: indeed!
<pitti> norsetto: I beautify the changelog myself now
<pitti> liw: I'm currently calling debmirror in my feisty chroot *blush*
<pitti> liw: looks like you are an ideal candidate to do the verification for the -proposed package then :)
<liw> pitti, not until I get back home, but yeah
<LaserJock> I use reprepro for mirroring
<LaserJock> has anybody ever seen any speed comparison between different mirroring apps
<LaserJock> or efficiency comparison
<LaserJock> I'd think they'd all be about the same
<StevenK> Mithrandir: So, can you have a quick dig for libosso-systemui-dbus-dev?
<Mithrandir> StevenK: sure.  But I can't see the URL for your modest stuff
<StevenK> Mithrandir: So it would seem my memory is on crack, sorry.
<StevenK> Mithrandir: I put it up, and then didn't tell you. http://wedontsleep.org/~steven/modest/
<Mithrandir> StevenK: thank you
<Mithrandir> StevenK: look at http://austinche.name/maemo/powerlaunch/ for info on systemui.
<Mithrandir> and possibly what we want
<Mithrandir> StevenK: libwpeditor-plus-dev seems to not be packaged, do you have a copy of that?
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Yes.
<Mithrandir> could I have, kthx?
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Dumped into the same directory
<StevenK> Now I'm running upstairs for some headache medication
<Mithrandir> enjoy
<Mithrandir> and thanks
<davf> Where/can I d/l the latest gutsy generic kernel tree?
<zul> kernel.ubuntu.com/git
<davf> This is the full compiled tree in a deb?
<spasticteapot> What's this I hear about a "tickless" kernel?
#ubuntu-devel 2007-11-01
<Ahmuck> can i assume that feedback to ubuntu-devel@ubuntu.com can be directed here as well?
<Fujitsu> Ahmuck: It's less likely to get lost on the mailing list, particularly as most of the developers are in Boston, either asleep or drunk. Or both.
<Ahmuck> hah.  ubuntu release party ?
<Fujitsu> Ubuntu Development Summit.
<Ahmuck> ah
<Ahmuck> developing a hangover?
<Burgundavia> Ahmuck: what is your feedback?
<LaserJock> a Hardy one ;-)
<Ahmuck> heh
<Burgundavia> there might be a better place to redirect your feedback
<Ahmuck> oh, i was working on a ltsp installation on kubuntu via virtualbox ... wasn't getting it right.  it seems like there are tons of docs out for doing something, all of which are different.  getting lost in wrong or old docs is becomeing a chore
<Burgundavia> that is a matter for the doucmentaiton
<Burgundavia> team
<Burgundavia> wow, I can spell
<Burgundavia> the best thing to do is to simply fix the docs
<Ahmuck> is there a reason there is not a universal package for ltsp?  it seems that there are two different versions, one for *buntu, and a pre-installed one for edubuntu
<LaserJock> it's not really different versions
<LaserJock> it's the same LTSP, but edubuntu does a lot more setup with it
<Ahmuck> LaserJock: some of the docs say, "don't do this" or "do this for *buntu, but not on edubuntu", etc.  i have to wonder why edubuntu setup is turn key but kubuntu is not
<Ahmuck> or ubuntu
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: because Edubuntu is built as an LTSP server
<LaserJock> however, in the future it looks like LTSP will become more of an Ubuntu Server thing
<LaserJock> Ahmuck: there is a universal package for ltsp, Edubuntu just goes further currently because it's setup at install
 * Ahmuck hopes for the future
<LaserJock> well, it's still pretty easy
<jsgotangco> yo LaserJock did you go to Boston?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: nope
<pwnguin> Ahmuck: as far as I know the policy is basically if it didn't happen on the ML it's not official or something like that. as in, IRC is not a primary means of communication. anything worthwhile on IRC should be duplicated on the ML if you expect other developers to respond
<jonmasters> sladen: I'm around a little over the next few days.
<[Gutsy]TuTUXG> anyone can tell me if i can r/w to hfs+ with gutsy?
<[Gutsy]TuTUXG> vfat sucks i need large file capability with my ipod
<Hobbsee> [Gutsy]TuTUXG: /topic
<RAOF> Hobbsee: The answer is "yes*", incidentally :)
<Hobbsee> RAOF: ahh.  i thought it might be
<RAOF> The * is: as long as you never, ever, fail to unmount it cleanly.
<RAOF> At which point the kernel will refuse to mount it r/w until you've run fsck on it... and we don't have a hfs+ fsck.
<Hobbsee> tasty.
<ion_> Hehe
<RAOF> You can hunt down some source from a gentoo wiki, but it's not 64bit safe.
<imbrandon> RAOF, or just disable the journal in OSX and mount it with hfs not hfs+ :P
<RAOF> imbrandon: hfs+ != hfs + journal, though?
<imbrandon> yes
<RAOF> imbrandon: Also, the kernel won't write to a journalled hfs+ filesystem at all.
<imbrandon> same as ext2 vs ext3 , ext3 == ext2 + jornal
<imbrandon> that and btw if you get fskck.hfs from darwin and compile it your much safer
<imbrandon> fsck.hfsplus*
<RAOF> That's where the one I used came from initially, IIRC.
<imbrandon> works great here, i386 , x86 and ppc , not sure where you mhad problems
<imbrandon> had*
<imbrandon> x86_64*
<imbrandon> gah i cant type
<RAOF> imbrandon: HFS+ != journalled HFS, at least according to http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn/tn1150.html#HFSPlusBasics :P
<RAOF> Hm.  It's been some time since I tried, anyway.
<imbrandon> RAOF, yea but as far as our drivers are concerned it is, e.g. turn off the journal in OSX with the  disk utility and linux can read write it with hfs(-plus) just fine
<RAOF> Oh, yeah.
<RAOF> Until you need to fsck it... but maybe that works now :)
<sladen> jonmasters: good good, no overflowing our convenicences
<sladen> win 6
<Keybuk> lose 12
<zul> hey dendrobates
<dendrobates> zul: hi
<bddebian> Heya
<bddebian> pitti: If you happen to come around and have time, I put a new clanbomber on mentors.  It's just a maintainer change to the Debian games team and added a desktop file:  http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/c/clanbomber
<pitti> bddebian: any chance you could put a debdiff there?
<bddebian> Hmm, I don't think I can put one on mentors but I'll stick one on my site
<pitti> bddebian: or just pastebin it
<bddebian> OK
<pitti> bddebian: could you add me as an Uploader:?
<dahitokiri> in LDD3 it says that i have to have the complete kernel sources and link against them when making device drivers but in ubuntu's package manager it says "If you are simply trying to build third-party modules for your kernel, you do not want this package. Install the appropriate linux-headers package instead." so which one is true?
<bddebian> pitti: Of course, sorry, I meant to do that
<bddebian> pitti: http://www.bddebian.com/packages/debian/clanbomber/clanbomb_7.debdiff  and a new upload is on mentors with you as an uploader.  Thanks again.
<pitti> bddebian: looking
<pitti> bddebian: looks fine to me, please upload
<bddebian> pitti: If only I could :-)
<persia> pitti: Please help :)  bddebian has been massively fixing games, but doesn't have the right keyring for Debian...
<pitti> bddebian: ah, I see; I'll sponsor it then
<bddebian> persia: Yeah, though I'm starting to wonder why I'm doing anything in games :-(
<pitti> bddebian: you shold apply to become a DM
<ScottK> bddebian: Makes it easier for you to have something to complain about.
<bddebian> ScottK: Hah, now that's a good one at least ;-)
<bddebian> pitti: I don't know much about DM's yet.  And I'm not exactly some of Debian favorite person ;-)
<persia> bddebian: Stop trusting IRC.  Debian is primarily email communication.
<bddebian> persia: Oh I get flamed on e-mail and Mailing Lists too ;-P
<somerville32> Poor bddebian
<bddebian> heh
<ScottK> bddebian: Of course that easily gives you something else to whine about.
<bddebian> Damn I can't even get any love here anymore :'-(
<bryyce> pitti: if you have a moment, our xserver build is currently blocking on libpixman-1-dev which is not yet in main.  I've filled out a MIR for this and added to the queue - would you mind reviewing?  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportPixman
<bddebian> ;-P
 * LaserJock hugs bddebian and runs away
<bddebian> Heh, thx LaserJock ;-)
<pitti> bddebian: uploaded clanbomber
<bddebian> Sweet, thanks pitti
<Riddell> bddebian: bug 145709 is ready for verification now
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 145709 in qt-x11-free "7.10: Qt3 /etc/qt3/qtrc owner root result in ugly appearance" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/145709
<bddebian> moi?
<Riddell> well, I was expecting bdmurray
<Riddell> but all help welcome :)
<bddebian> heh
<mathiaz> zul: are you dialed in for the virtualization session ?
<zul> mathiaz: im listenting on the icecast im currently at work
<mathiaz> zul: ok.
<mathiaz> zul: if you wanna say something I can relay it for you.
<zul> mathiaz: sure..
<Mithrandir> StevenK: do you have svn snapshots of tinymail packaged?
<Mithrandir> it seems modest needs a newer version.
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Bugger. 0.0.3 was released, but I've not updated my packaging. I can do that if you like.
<ogra__> keescook, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-content-server we have a session about the moodle stuff this evening, probably it would make sense if you could join for some mins to talk about the packaging layout so we can add that to the spec
<keescook> ogra__: sure!  that sounds good.  there was some discussion earlier about common webserver packaging methods too.
<ogra__> like replacing wwwconfig-common ?
<mvo> Riddell: I uploaded a new compiz to hardy that should fix a lot of the crashes in kwd, I would be interessted feedback, if it is good, its definitely something for gutsy-updates
<keescook> ogra__: well, fixing or replacing, yes.  mostly just evaluating the debian web packaging policy
<Riddell> thanks mvo, I don't expect it'll get compiled any time soon though
<mvo> Riddell: oh, ok
<Riddell> although if you have n i386 .deb yourself I'm happy to test
<StevenK> mvo: Where's my patch? :-P
<mvo> Riddell: yes, I can do and upload it
<mvo> StevenK: I can give you a compiz one ;) ?
<StevenK> mvo: Hah
 * StevenK fixes orbit.
<thom> StevenK: higher or lower?
<StevenK> thom: :-P
<thom> well, with all this talk of burnout i'd hate to see you burn up instead
<Mithrandir> StevenK: when you have the time, yes, please.  I'm slowly getting to the point where modest seems to compile.
<StevenK> Mithrandir: libtinymail 0.0.3 building locally
<Mithrandir> huzzah
<StevenK> Come on, libtinymail.
<StevenK> I forgot it took ~ 11 minutes to build.
<StevenK> And it goes bang. Sigh.
<Mithrandir> ccache++
<StevenK> I see your ccache, and raise you the quad core machine John was talking about yesterday
<Mithrandir> which one, the personal one I have in a rack or the quad dualcore opterons I have access to? :-P
<StevenK> Mithrandir: libtinymail goes bang due to fun firefox things
<Mithrandir> StevenK: huzzah.  Or something.  Does it build on gutsy?
<StevenK> Mithrandir: And upstream has removed the hard libalarm dependancy in modest. \o/
<Mithrandir> hurrah
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Trying. libtinymail 0.0.3 under Gutsy
<StevenK> s/\.//
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Same failure on Gutsy
<Mithrandir> StevenK: gnr.  If you could poke at it, that'd be appreciated, if not, just pass it along and I'll poke it.
<StevenK> /usr/lib/firefox/libgtkembedmoz.so: undefined reference to `nsACString_internal::~nsACString_internal()'
<StevenK> Mithrandir: It's whole bunch of stuff like that - my linking foo isn't good enough.
<Mithrandir> ughkay.
<Mithrandir> care to put what you have, somewhere?
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Remember that modest URL?
<Mithrandir> my shell does, at least.
<Mithrandir> cheers
<Riddell> cjwatson: desktop bof is wanting to know why partner isn't enabled by default
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Speaking of buildds, can you bump the priority of the orbit 0.5.17-11.1ubuntu4 builds?
<Mithrandir> I can
<Keybuk> <Riddell> cjwatson: desktop bof is wanting to know why partner isn't enabled by default
<pwnguin> are the UDS icecasts down at the moment?
<ScottK> Yes
<ScottK> I think
<pwnguin> doh
<ScottK> pwnguin: --> #uds-boston
<pwnguin> ty
<StevenK> Mithrandir: orbit built on sparc and ppc at least. :-)
<Mithrandir> asac: so, using midbrowser, is there any way to access installed extensions, like greasemonkey?
<StevenK> Ah, you're missing greasemonkey ...
<Mithrandir> yes
<Mithrandir> which makes this ever so slightly painful
<StevenK> Mithrandir: You could hit up pitti for his Python script
<Mithrandir> StevenK: I could, but then I would have to find my ssh key
<StevenK> Mithrandir: It screenscrapes Launchpad
<Mithrandir> ugh
<StevenK> I didn't say it was elegant. :-)
<sladen> pwnguin: 19:21 <Ng > the icecast streams are back up
<pwnguin> yes
<pwnguin> i saw that
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Did you poke at libtinymail?
<Mithrandir> StevenK: yes.  It's simple enough to fix.
 * StevenK hands Mithrandir a clue bat.
<StevenK> Please, enlighten me.
<Mithrandir> sr/bin/ld: warning: libxpcom_core.so, needed by /usr/lib/firefox/libgtkembedmoz.so, not found (try using -rpath or -rpath-link)
<StevenK> Ah ha. That's the crux of the problem.
<pitti> keescook: does the cups security issue affect 1.2.x as well?
<Mithrandir> so either we need to fix firefox to set that, or we need to set ld_library_path or we need to use the xpcom linknig mechanism thingabob.
<Mithrandir> (if the latter doesn't make sense to you, that's fine.  It's just Mozilla NIH)
<StevenK> I don't know the last one.
<keescook> pitti: yes, though I have so far been unable to reproduce the issue.
<pitti> keescook: fun; but nice to see that my paranoia isn't unfounded at all
<StevenK> Mithrandir: We could just hack in -L?
<keescook> pitti: the updates are building right now.  Yeah.  and hplip was similar.  :(
<pitti> keescook: except that we don't confine the latter because of sheer insanity of its architecture
<keescook> pitti: true
<Kmos> StevenK: can you get gimp 2.4.1 into gutsy? :)
<seb128> Kmos: no new versions in stable
 * ajmitch saw this discussion merely an hour ago
<StevenK> I'd be amused, but he is the fourth person to ask me
<pwnguin> heh
<seb128> I've read several bugs and comment about it
<StevenK> seb128: I think we need to tag team and take an Overfiend approach
<ajmitch> love the cup
<Nafallo> is there anything wrong with the current gimp? :-)
<seb128> no
<Kmos> seb128: ups :)
<seb128> people just ask new version to get a new version
<seb128> you would make no change or add like some crashers
<seb128> they would ask for the update anyway ;-)
<Nafallo> yea :-)
<Nafallo> "but... the numbers look shiny..."
<pwnguin> so what can we inferr about Ubuntu's perception of upstream release engineering if they'll run an RC but not a final?
<seb128> pwnguin: there was nothing else available for gutsy
<ScottK> pwnguin: You can infer that they don't change anything after release without a good reason.
<StevenK> rc3 was out when we froze, and the final was out the day after we released. What can we do?
<seb128> pwnguin: we can't delay because new versions will be available, there is always a project which will roll a new version soon
<pwnguin> yikes
<seb128> update might be possible
<seb128> there is this SRU procedure, you can look at it
<seb128> like debdiff, justifications of the changes and why we need them, testing, etc
<pwnguin> StevenK: well, if you trusted upstream rel-eng, you'd deploy it ;)
<seb128> everybody make mistakes
<seb128> anyway reason gimp upstream would be special?
<seb128> new stable versions sometime introduce regressions
<pwnguin> well, in the universe of open source projects, they probably represent one of the better projects in terms of release engineering. whether that's anywhere near good enough, I doubt
<pwnguin> im merely trying to point out that users have a different and probably incorrect theory on release engineering versus distro developers
<Kmos> seb128: http://developer.gimp.org/NEWS-2.4 -> i only see these fixes.. it's mostly bugfixes from the current rc3
<seb128> Kmos: bug fixes can also introduce regressions, did you read the changes carrefully, are those bugs we really care about and did users filed bugs about those?
<Kmos> seb128: i didn't check that at LP.. but maybe the fixed crashs with scripts and plugins, rendering problems, and float numbers in script-fu are good ones to have the final version..
<Kmos> an SRU
<seb128> Kmos: there is a SRU procedure, what about reading it and opening a bug with the required details rather than comment on IRC?
<seb128> Kmos: discussing that on IRC is not going to get you anything done most likely
<Kmos> seb128: i was just commenting to know what developers think about it
<seb128> Kmos: can't say before having the details required in the SRU bug
<seb128> looks like a possible candidate
<seb128> but we need to look at the diff, the bugs closed, etc
<Kmos> yep
<Kmos> :)
<pwnguin> where does ubuntu draw the line on fonts?
<StevenK> Mithrandir: I added -L/usr/lib/firefox, no effect
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Next idea?
<asac> Mithrandir: doesn't it appear in the tools menu?
<Mithrandir> asac: no
<Burgundavia> pwnguin: in what sense?
<pwnguin> Burgundavia: license
<Burgundavia> what is the context of the question
<pwnguin> it would be really great if cellwriter used a handwritten style font instead of the default font
<Burgundavia> ahh
<pwnguin> but if I have to not only find a suitable font but convince the owner to liscense it under something they've never heard of or dont care for
<Burgundavia> opl is a good one
<asac> Mithrandir: you can open the greasemonkey manage user scripts dialog by opening chrome://greasemonkey/content/manage.xul
<asac> (in url bar)
<asac> Mithrandir: i will ask cwong to look into why it doesn't find its anchor point in the tools submenu
* warsocket changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: OPEN | Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with hardy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Hardy opened, go wild! | UDS in #uds-bosto
* warsocket changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: OPEN | Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with hardy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Hardy opened, go wild! | UDS in #uds-boston
<warsocket> oops
<warsocket> didnt know i was allowed to do that
<Hammerhead> Hi I was wondering how to go about offering a small script for a package.
<Hammerhead> Firehol is missing the "try" option in the init script
<ScottK> firehol is in Universe, so ask in #ubuntu-motu.  Someone there should be able to help you.
<cavedon> hi all!
<cavedon> for package wengophone, there is a new bugfixing-only new upstream release
<cavedon> would it be an update or a backport?
<cavedon> I mean , should it go to proposed-updates, or backports
<somerville32> backports unless it meets the criteria for an SRU
<somerville32> In that case, you'd only patch the stuff that meets the SRU criteria
<cavedon> somerville32: tnx
<somerville32> np
<krawek> hi
<krawek> gtusy supports squashfs?
<crimsun_> krawek: yes
<krawek> i'm trying to mount with -t squashfs but it says squashfs is unknown
<crimsun_> krawek: install linux-ubuntu-modules-$(uname -r)
<krawek> thanks crimsun_ =)
#ubuntu-devel 2007-11-02
<Vlet> So... can anyone pop into the developers conference to spectate?
<crimsun_> yes
<Ahmuck> is there a way to install a non-pae kernel for ubuntu server?
<kkubasik> hey, I was wondering if anyone knew what happened to/with the apt-sync or package diff spec?
<kkubasik> there are still specs/wiki pages
<kkubasik> but it seems like the code portion was completed some time ago, and I can't see what's holding it back
<Burgundavia> kkubasik: deployment is an issue
<Burgundavia> although the major use case is a stable --> stable upgrade
<kkubasik> ahhh
<kkubasik> the server-side diffs required?
<pwnguin> strange. there's a hoary backports repo still open?
<Fujitsu> pwnguin: I doubt it. Hoary has been dead for 12 months.
<pwnguin> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+builds?build_text=&build_state=pending shows several in the queue...
<pwnguin> i should probably write an irssi script to strip edge off of lp urls
<Fujitsu> pwnguin: I presume there has recently been a mass-giveback.
<pwnguin> i guess they could just be stuck in the queue forever as zombies or something
<Fujitsu> As it was queued in March 2006.
<Fujitsu> No, they probably failed soon after they were uploaded, and somebody did a mass-giveback which caused everything that has FTBFSed to be retried.
<Fujitsu> And they will be probably be there after every mass-giveback in the future, as they don't seem to have died even though hoary did.
<sebastian^> good morning folks :)!
<pitti> Good morning
<Hobbsee> hiya pitti!
<Fujitsu> Hi pitti, Hobbsee.
<pitti> Hey Hobbsee, hey Fujitsu
<zul> hi pitti
<hunger_t> Is archive.ubuntu.com only updated once a day nowadays? I only get new stuff at the first update I do each day.
<Fujitsu> hunger_t: It is still updated hourly - there might just be no new stuff for you every hour.
<hunger_t> Fujitsu: Thanks.
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: when using GSSAPIDelegateCredentials, is there a way to get sshd to put them into /tmp/krb5cc_$uid rather than /tmp/krb5cc_$uid_$randomsalt ?
<pitti> seb128: good morning
<seb128> pitti: hey hey hey
<asac> hi
<Hobbsee> jono: guilty as charged :P
<jono> Hobbsee: :)
<Hobbsee> jono: but really, this is not Hobbsee - it's a green alien who has taken over.
<bddebian> Heya
<wasabi> There any decent way to have a .deb file initiate an apt-get update and install from an archive? I'm suspecting no.
<Ng> wasabi: I asked kees about that the other day and the conclusion was that there's no sane way to do it
<persia> wasabi: Not really.  There are some attempts to make other types of files do that, and there are hacks (see the wrapper packages in multiverse).
<Vlet> associate the deb with a shell script instead of a binary perhaps?
 * keescook is not an expert, so "no sane" may not be true, but certainly not one known to me.  :)
<wasabi> I wonder if a better answer is to have a .deb which drops files into app-install, and uses debconf to instruct the user how to install it.
<persia> wasabi: What's the use case?
<wasabi> Well, I've been working on this ThirdPartyApt thing for awhile (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt)
<wasabi> And some fool gave me the idea that my work was completely useless because I could just have a single .deb file which added a file to sources.list.
<wasabi> Which actually didn't seem like a bad idea.
<wasabi> So, trying a few things to see if it's a suitable answer.
<persia> wasabi: Ah.  You could do that in a postinst, but it would be a violation of policy (packages may not alter conffiles of other packages).
<persia> You could perhaps do something with /etc/apt/sources.d/, but that doesn't deem ideal either.
<wasabi> No. app-install seems like an intersting answer, though.
<wasabi> Have a single .deb file which a) configures app-install to offer another channel and b) uses debconf to instruct the user how to install the rest of the package themselves.
<bmm> Dear developers. I've started a blueprint, which needs some discussion. How would one go about getting attention for the subject?
<soren> puppetmaster and mongrel recommend it.
<soren> Whoops, wrong channel.
<slangasek> wasabi: no, there's no sane way at all :)  there's a spec here at UDS about having downloadable apt config snippets that can trigger configuration of new apt sources and autoinstall of particular packages, though
<wasabi> Yes, I know. I wrote it.
<wasabi> or at least I think I did. =)
<wasabi> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt
<slangasek> right, that's the one
<slangasek> hmm, are you here?
<slangasek> have I met you already and failed to connect you with your irc nick? :)
<wasabi> Nope. I'm not.
<wasabi> Couldn't make it.
<slangasek> ok
<manchicken> Anybody here use the Argus monitoring suite?  It looks like it may be out of date a bit...
<deadwill> manchicken, better ask on #ubuntu
<manchicken> deadwill: Well I was considering updating the package :)
<manchicken> I thought that development and package updates might be done in -devel :)
<deadwill> nope
<deadwill> it's on universe
<deadwill> -motu
<deadwill> btw, if it's outdated could be good trace a bug (wishlist) at lp.net
<norsetto> \o/ deadwill
<deadwill> o/
<soren> lool: You might want to actually upload your gpg key somewhere so that we can sign it..
<soren> :)
<soren> lool: Forget. I'm an idiot.
<soren> lool: Your splitting the fingerprint over two lines confused me.
<lool> soren: A one line fingerprint didn't look a bit short?  :)
<soren> :p
<Keybuk> mjg59: do we still need apmd?
<mjg59> Keybuk: Potentially, yeah
<mjg59> xubuntu is probably still usable on some apm machines
<siretart> not after we removed ampd
<LaserJock> soren: thanks :-)
<talcite> hi guys, I'm interested in getting into ubuntu development. Where can I get some more info?
<crimsun_> see the topic: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment
<talcite> I'm a 2nd year comp sci student, so my coding abilities aren't phenomenal, but I can work with the more basic stuff
<talcite> thanks
<talcite> hmm... so I'm getting the feeling that the MOTU team is more suited for beginners?
<jpatrick> talcite: yes
<talcite> I see. Is there somewhere I can learn more about the MOTU team? What level of coding ability do I need?
<crimsun_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing
<talcite> thanks
<BigPick> Good afternoon all.
<BigPick> Following up on my work for Bug #107188, I identified some possible errors in the python-apt package.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 107188 in update-manager "[MASTER] [kde] Upgrade tool crashed with " Cannot allocate memory"" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/107188
<BigPick> I have filed a new bug under the python-apt project (Bug #159638) and included an experimental patch.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 159638 in python-apt "Possible Infinite Loop in "commit()" Method" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/159638
<wasabi> So if I were to want to actually try to put a few hours into debugging why my laptop can't wake up from sleep mode (blank video), where would I start? As in, what is the most common source of errors, video card drivers, X, shell scripts that kick off?
<BigPick> I have no idea, that is a toughie.
<BigPick> Sleep issues can be a result of a large number of factors all the way down to the kernel.
<BigPick> I have never been able to get this laptop to sleep successfully.
<somerville32> wasabi, I would ask keybuck
<pwnguin> wasabi: first place to look is the keyboard. does capslock work?
<pwnguin> wasabi: mjg is apparently rather good at this stuff
<pwnguin> wasabi: http://lca2007.linux.org.au/talk/54.html
#ubuntu-devel 2007-11-03
<johanbr> BigPick: A good place to start is to play with the video restore settings in /etc/default/acpi-support.
<BigPick> So does Michael use IRC ever?
<Fujitsu> BigPick: Which Michael?
<BigPick> Vogt
<Nafallo> yes
<Fujitsu> Ah, he's mvo, and is often here.
<BigPick> Sweet. I hoping to get some input from him.
<BigPick> I may have some helpful information on the update-manager crashes.
<Burgundavia> BigPick: attach any information to a bug, to prevent the data getting lost
<BigPick> Already done. I've submitted full information and serveral experimental patches to both the update-manager and the python-apt packages.
<Burgundavia> cool
<BigPick> The problems arise from an odd anomally in the handling of the kubuntu-desktop metapackage.
<BigPick> And wind up causing 2 different memory leaks.
<BigPick> Its not one big problem, but several minor errors that compound.
<BigPick> I haven't been able to determine what causes the initial anomally, but I have been able to patch the memory leaks, both of which are caused by accidental infinite loops.
<realist> Aren't all infinite loops 'accidental'?
<Keybuk> not the ones that the kernel can do in 5s
<realist> Isn't 5s finite?
<BigPick> HAHA, well I guess except when considering things such as graphics and events. In those cases the loops are expected to infinite until a wakeup call.
<realist> BigPick: key word "until" ;-)
<BigPick> Indeed :P
<realist> I understand your point though :-)
<BigPick> Hey, I was trying not to point any fingers :-D
<BigPick> I was just emphasizing the "accidental", instead of like "negligent" or "incompotent" or something.
<persia> BigPick: Actually, it's often intentional: the "main loop" design strategy, where the loop should continue until the process is stopped (usually through throwing an exception)
<BigPick> Exactly.
<BigPick> However I am more comforitable thinking of it in terms of thread "waits" and such. Even though the implementation is probably similar if not identical :P
<pipegeek> So.... ever since I installed gutsy (and with it, compiz fusion), I've been noticing that every so often while c-f is running, x will just suddenly, for no apparent reason, *die*, returning me to the gdm prompt.
<pipegeek> Sometimes its days,
<pipegeek> but certain conditions make it happen frequently
<pipegeek> for instance,
<pipegeek> If I'm running mencoder,
<pipegeek> it takes about 5 minutes.
<pipegeek> which is very, very annoying.
<pipegeek> Have other people been reporting this behavior, or am I special? :P
<pipegeek> actually, on second thought, this would probably be better suited for #ubuntu
<pipegeek> sorry for bothering you guys.  Keep up the good work!
<beuno> pipegeek, this is usually not the best place to ask, checking out bugs reported in Launchpad is probably the best way
<pipegeek> thank you.
<pipegeek> heading there right now
<beuno> or opening threads in forums, this channel is specifically for development jiberish  :D
<beuno> pipegeek, :D
 * Fujitsu notes that Ubuntu mencoder doesn't actually link against any X libraries.
<Nafallo> Fujitsu: should it?
<bluefoxicy> ...
<pipegeek> Fujitsu: I don't know if mencoder is doing something directly to x, or if it's just that compiz will tend to die when the system's under load
<bluefoxicy> kees cook?
<bluefoxicy> keescook:  ping
<pipegeek> Fujistu: I should try compiling something big
<Fujitsu> Nafallo: No, it's meant to not have anything to do with X.
<Nafallo> Fujitsu: all good then? :-)
<Nafallo> Fujitsu: aha. you answered something above :-P
<pipegeek> Could I ask a general question of the devs here?  I'm just curious about something.
<Fujitsu> pipegeek: Sure.
<Fujitsu> (though most of the main devs are likely not here)
<pipegeek> So, my understanding of the way ubuntu (and debian) releases are handled,
<pipegeek> (that's ok, I figured :^) )
<pipegeek> is that, once a release is final, the only changes that make it in are security fixes.
<pipegeek> What I don't understand,
<Fujitsu> Not quite. Important bugfixes can also be made after appropriate QA procedures.
<pipegeek> is why it is that fixes to program features which are discovered to be broken don't make it in as well.  I don't get the logic behind having it such that broken code is knowingly being distributed as part of ubuntu for six months
<pipegeek> aaah
<pipegeek> so what's that process?
<persia> !sru | pipegeek
<ubotu> pipegeek: Stable Release Update information is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<pipegeek> thanks, persia
<pipegeek> I should think my compiz thing, if it's common (and anecdotally it is, as a friend of mine with a fresh install on completely different hardware is experiencing the same thing) should qualify
<pipegeek> There probably already is a bug for it
<pipegeek> I should go comment on it
 * Fujitsu has found Compiz to be completely stable since late in Gutsy cycle.
<persia> pipegeek: Crashes generally do, the difficulty is in determining the specific cause, and testing to verify that it doesn't break a working setup.
<pipegeek> represents a possibility for data loss, and it directly affects desktop, non technical users
<pipegeek> righto
<pipegeek> I am curious :^)  I'm just not sure I dare start pulling x apart and running pieces of it in strace, etc.  x.org is so bloody huge and arcane... >.<
<pipegeek> but then, it does have to get done....
<pipegeek> Thanks, all.  I hope I haven't been too obnoxious...
<persia> pipegeek:  Thanks for digging into the issue.  Please make sure there is a bug, and post your findings there.
<Keybuk> meh @ .gtkrc
<Keybuk> can't work out how to make the treeview expander things visible
<Keybuk> HAHAHA
<Keybuk> gcc developers rock
<Keybuk> "in fact, assuming almost anything where a reasonable implementation could change, is not a good idea"
<Keybuk> (googleing to see whether alloca() works inside inline functions :p)
<Burgundavia> Keybuk: what gtk thing are you trying to work on
<Burgundavia> ?
<Keybuk> Burgundavia: running darklooks but with white input boxes
<Keybuk> the triangle thing inside them is also white
<Keybuk> and I can't figure out how to make it black
<Burgundavia> right
<BigPick> Okay... well... we all have out little battles I guess.
<mpt> I think there should be a moratorium on the use of the word "Manager" for program names
<Keybuk> agree
<Keybuk> s/Manager/Kit/g
<LaserJock> should we write a Word Manager to implement that?
<LaserJock> maybe UI Manager
<BigPick> Agreed.
<mpt> Network Manager, Power Management, Restricted Drivers Manager
<Keybuk> LaserJock: WordKit
<LaserJock> heh
<mpt> I don't want to manage any of those things, I want to *use* them
<Keybuk> NetworkKit, PowerKit, RestrictedDriversKit
<LaserJock> Bootloader Manager
<BigPick> No not kit.
<mpt> Kit is Maccy
<Keybuk> BootKit
<LaserJock> mpt: you ever give that SoC student a review of Bootloader Manager?
<mpt> LaserJock, I thought I did and CCed you
<LaserJock> ok
<mpt> or did I just imagine I did?
<BigPick> How about we get everything name * Manager to work correctly. :-D
<LaserJock> you did early on I remember
<Burgundavia> Pete Savage should have named his new thingy MessageKit
<LaserJock> haha
<LaserJock> Notification Manager?
<BigPick> So far things named "Manager" are causing me no end of pain.
<Keybuk> NotificationKit
<mpt> http://web.archive.org/web/20051124192442/www.blakeross.com/images/splash-manager.gif
<Keybuk> SplashKit
<LaserJock> so we just need an UbuntuKit and UbuntuManager to wrap it all up and go home
<Keybuk> LaserJockKit
<LaserJock> noooooooo
<LaserJock> although a LaserJock Manager sounds good
<LaserJock> but that position's already been taken by my wife I think ;-)
<mpt> ah, http://web.archive.org/web/20050912102712/http://www.blakeross.com/images/refcnt.gif
<mpt> Those were the days
<KeybukKit> mpt: http://www.kde.org/
<Burgundavia> http://amarok.kde.org/
<LaserJock> now we just need PittiManager
<mpt> ah, found it
<mpt> the list of managers Mozilla used to have
<KeybukKit> you want to manage pitti?
<mpt> Cookie Manager, Image Manager, Popup Manager, Form Manager, Password Manager, and Download Manager.
<KeybukKit> PittiKit would be better ... make new pittis!
<LaserJock> yeah, I suppose so
<KeybukKit> mpt: rename them to monsters
<KeybukKit> Cookie Monster
<ion_> :-D
<KeybukKit> Image monster
<KeybukKit> Popup Monster
<KeybukKit> Form Monster
<KeybukKit> Password Monster
<KeybukKit> Download Monster
<LaserJock> lol
<evand> can we?
<ScottK> Network Monster would be pretty accurate.
<evand> can we *please*?
<LaserJock> man, what fun April Fools we could do with that
<mpt> evand, Seamonkey's in Universe, right? Take over the package and Do It :-)
<BigPick> I vote Network Monster.
<Burgundavia> Vote Network Monster in 2008!
<evand> hrmm, perhaps
<Burgundavia> Network Monster for President!
<BigPick> Ugh, god. If I sat down and wrote a replacement for NetworkManager, would it stand a chance of being adopted?
<Burgundavia> no
<mpt> LaserJock, actually, I'm glad you mentioned the Bootloader Manager -- were you the mentor?
<Burgundavia> work on upstream NetworkManager, BigPick
<LaserJock> mpt: yeah
<Burgundavia> replace Usplash with Gnash!
<Fujitsu> 0.7 looks like it might sorta work a bit properly sort of.
<Burgundavia> lots of bugs in NM are actually driver bugs
<KeybukKit> BigPick: no, better to improve NM
<KeybukKit> NM is actually not *that* bad
<Burgundavia> like the whole "freeze my whole fucking computer bug"
<LaserJock> it generally works fine for me
<Burgundavia> thanks Atheros
<mpt> LaserJock, how did it end up?
<BigPick> If you can get it to stop hardlocking my computer I'll believe you.
<LaserJock> mpt: ok I guess
<KeybukKit> BigPick: if it hard locks, it's a driver bug
<KeybukKit> BigPick: an NIH rewrite would lock the same way
<LaserJock> mpt: I think its got some potential
<nixternal> wicd for gnome > network mangler
<Fujitsu> It works OK for me unless I try to connect to one particular network, in which case it spams my syslog with hundreds of thousands of lines each second, eating CPU.
<mpt> LaserJock, I'm wondering if it could be merged with Power M_____r
<BigPick> No its not. I can confirm the lock on three seperate machines, two of which don't even have wireless drivers.
<nixternal> but don't tell people I have been running Gnome, I will never hear the end of it :)
<LaserJock> mpt: but I think the goal needs to be broader than "let's be yet another menu.lst GUI"
<mpt> "Startup & Shutdown"
<KeybukKit> BigPick: anything that hard locks a machine is a driver bug
<Fujitsu> BigPick: NM simply can't lock the system itself.
<LaserJock> mpt: yeah, something like that
<Burgundavia> BigPick: NM manages non-wireless cards as well
<LaserJock> I really wanted to have an option so that you could choose an OS to reboot into at logout
<Burgundavia> yes, an 8th logout option
<mpt> LaserJock, yeah, that's what I'm wondering
<BigPick> I know I know, its not a hardlock, thats a drastic overstatement. NetworkManager just refuses to die and slowly eats up all remaining memory until I can do anything :P
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: well, that's another issue
<BigPick> *cant't
<YokoZar> I've been getting a lot of scary bug reports about Wine lately - whole system freezes, crashes, etc.  Wine is a user-level application and shouldn't be causing these sorts of things - it's likely exposing driver bugs or something, but I don't know where to forward the bugs to.
<mpt> ( Shut Down Now ) ( Restart ) ( Restart Into BeOS )
<KeybukKit> BigPick: no it doesn't.
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: what is? management of wired cards?
<Fujitsu> Isn't the logout dialog being redone for Hardy, mpt?
<Burgundavia> Fujitsu: yes
<mpt> Fujitsu, hopefully, that's why I'm asking
<BigPick> No it doesn't what?
<KeybukKit> doesn't use all available memory
<KeybukKit> and doesn't refuse to die
<KeybukKit> if you can't kill -9 it => driver bug ;)
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: having too many logout options
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: yes, well there are ways to get around that
<YokoZar> KeybukKit: So do I presume these are ati driver bugs and refile them against that package?
<Burgundavia> if driver bugs were not an issue, I would only have Hibernate and Suspend
<KeybukKit> YokoZar: nvidia binary graphics driver bugs
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: as the only options for logout?
<BigPick> Look, when I don't have NetworkManager doesn't load, the problem doesn't happen.
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: and logout, but yes
<YokoZar> KeybukKit: So I think I should mark incomplete and then target nvidia or ati
<YokoZar> once they give driver version
<BigPick> *when I don't have network manager load.
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: no need for reboot, as that can be done via prompting. Shutdown is not needed. We should be saving sessions
<Burgundavia> thus leaving you at two options: turn my system off or not
<KeybukKit> BigPick: I find that my computer is bug free all the time it's switched off ;)
<BigPick> KeybukKit: Yeah, funny how that works.
<Burgundavia> BigPick: the possibility is that NM is exposing a bug not previously exposed
<persia> Burgundavia: But what if I just upgraded to the newest shiny release, and need to reboot to get the new kernel & libc?
<KeybukKit> Burgundavia: suspend happens when you close your lid
<mpt> Burgundavia, I'm assuming that we can't fix all session management bugs for Hardy
<mpt> And even if we could, I'm not sure that would alter the design at all
<persia> KeybukKit: There's also desktop suspend.  Less common, but present
<BigPick> KeybukKit: Even if it is a driver bug, why doesn't it occur since I started manually configuring my interfaces?
<Burgundavia> persia: that would happen via the update-notifier dialogue (ie: it is a special case that happens only once in a while)
<Burgundavia> mpt: we would need to fix those bugs as well, but the driver one is a killer
<mpt> persia, handled by a configurable timeout
<persia> Burgundavia: Ah.  So I'd select "reboot" from that dialog, and then go back to suspend/hibernate?
<KeybukKit> BigPick: because NM is probably tickling the bug by being useful
<Burgundavia> persia: no, reboot would be on another dialog, the one telling you had to reboot
<KeybukKit> it scans wireless networks regularly
<persia> mpt: Use case being "I want it suspended now", but I see your point.
<KeybukKit> and checks the link sense on wired network interfaces, etc.
<BigPick> KeybukKit: HAHAHA ah, thats awsome. Nothing like just passing off blame for problems :-D
<manchicken> So would anybody be interested in a bug that I found in the nm-applet plugin for openvpn?  I'm willing to try to help fix the problem.
<persia> Burgundavia: Sorry.  To be more verbose.  When I need to reboot for the new kernel, the notification dialog allows me to do so.  After than reboot, I would continue to choose between suspend/hibernate for future sessions.
<KeybukKit> BigPick: nothing to do with passing off blame
<Burgundavia> persia: yes, absolutely
<KeybukKit> it's to do with accurate triage of the problems at hand
<Burgundavia> if you were a developer needing to reboot, you are a developer. You know how to use a terminal
<manchicken> The problem is that when you connect to the VPN using the openvpn setup, network-manager wipes out your resolv.conf.
<mpt> persia, I think "It's not a laptop but I want it suspended immediately" is one small thing where we may have to defer to the command line
<mpt> (aka "eeeeeeedge case")
<persia> mpt: Actually, based on lid event / screen lock, I'm more tempted by just having a "Hibernate" option (given that it works for everyone)
<KeybukKit> NM does not cause world hunger
<Burgundavia> mpt: suspending for sane power management is not really an edge case
<KeybukKit> don't get me wrong
<Fujitsu> persia: Hibernate doesn't always work.
<KeybukKit> I hate it as much as the next person
<KeybukKit> but I'm aware that most of the problems aren't its fault
<persia> Burgundavia: Desktop-immediate-suspend vs. desktop-lock-timeout-suspend
<KeybukKit> like the fact it crashes several times a day while here
<Burgundavia> oh
<KeybukKit> it's in uninterruptible sleep; that's a kernel issue
<BigPick> KeybukKit: Okay, considering I have bcm43xx compiled with debugging enabled, and I worked on the patches for bcm4311 compatability and I am still helping the investigation into the TX power problem...
<persia> Fujitsu: As an ideal, it's a good goal.  For my workstation, it's also useless.
<KeybukKit> (proven by the fact that I often have to remove and reprobe the ipw3945 module)
<mpt> persia, actually, another part of the spec is combining those two
<KeybukKit> BigPick: bcm is ... incomplete :)
<mpt> Burgundavia, what do you mean?
<Burgundavia> Fujitsu: there is also the issue of dual boot + hibernate is really not good
<Burgundavia> mpt: sorry, I was confused
<KeybukKit> BigPick: it's also worth pointing out that the bcm43xx driver is also deprecated ;)
<persia> Burgundavia: Why not?  Would it be better if file buffers were always flushed?
<BigPick> KeybukKit: And considering the problem occurs even if bcm43xx is blacklisted.
<KeybukKit> BigPick: could be a problem with your wired card
<KeybukKit> tg3?
<persia> mpt: combining which two?
<Burgundavia> persia: issues with stuff moving around when the other os is running
<mpt> persia, suspend and hibernate -- though if your computer doesn't work with one or the other, you could ramp the slider all the way to one end or the other
<persia> Burgundavia: Ah.  Right.
<LaserJock> mpt: it seems he did implement the "reboot into: " thing, it's just in his UI rather than in a logout dialog or something
<persia> mpt: Well, my workstation doesn't do either (desktop use case).  For power management, moving from suspend to hibernate in a configurable way makes sense.
<BigPick> This is useless. KeybukKit, your right. I'm just a noob and can't tell a kernel-mode driver error from a python crash when I see one.
<BigPick> I guess all I can do is sit here and hope that the driver developers get in touch with the NetworkManager maintainers so they can learn the proper way to implent networking drivers.
<Burgundavia> BigPick: don't get frustrated
<KeybukKit> BigPick: well, err, given NetworkManager isn't written in Python ... ;)
<BigPick> yes, but knetworkmanger is, which is where my stack traces are leading to.
<KeybukKit> if you can demonstrate bugs in NetworkManager, I'm sure that they'll be rapidly fixed
<KeybukKit> likewise for the KDE applet for it
<KeybukKit> but if you're seeing anything other than simple silly bugs, like hardware lock-ups, you're definitely seeing kernel bugs
<KeybukKit> (a lot of NM's issues also come down to missing kernel support for things)
<BigPick> Burgundavia: I get frustrated because I have been dealing with this mentality for weeks. For instance with update-manager. Everyone just told me my configuration was incorrect.
<Burgundavia> it is not a mentality, it is the truth
<Burgundavia> bugs exist at different layers
<BigPick> Roll up my sleeves and come to find out that my update failures were the result of two seperate memory leaks within the update-manager and python-apt packages.
<Burgundavia> NM refuses to work around stupid bugs, which is generally good
<KeybukKit> BigPick: thanks very much!  I wish more technically-inclined users would help out in that way
<LaserJock> mpt: wow, this turned out a lot better than I thought
<Burgundavia> have you been able to connect with mvo?
<mpt> Burgundavia, if it doesn't give good error message, that's bad
<Burgundavia> mpt: you speaking about NM failing?
<mpt> yes
<LaserJock> mpt: I just got the latest code for Bootloader Manager and took a bunch of screenshots
<KeybukKit> good error messages are expected in 2-3 years ;)
<mpt> LaserJock, you didn't look at it again until now? :-X
<Burgundavia> mpt: one of the nasty bugs that you really cannot warn the user about is that Atheros reports strength wrong (too weak)
<KeybukKit> Burgundavia: err, I *fixed* that!
<Burgundavia> KeybukKit: you fixed it? I don't see said fix...
<Burgundavia> hmm
<LaserJock> mpt: not the final stuff, he's worked on it since I last looked
<KeybukKit> but then I stopped having an Atheros card, so it's entirely likely it got unfixed
<BigPick> No, I have not. And so far my only responses from other developers have been that the problem doesn't meet SRU
<LaserJock> mpt: the whole SoC thing was ... interesting
<KeybukKit> BigPick: we very very *very* rarely SRU
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: SoC tends to produce such code
<BigPick> So nothing is done instead?
<KeybukKit> we always have another release out within 6 months
<KeybukKit> it's fixed for the next release
<KeybukKit> (assuming your patch was accepted?)
<BigPick> It hasn't been considered.
<KeybukKit> what's the bug#?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I think this project has a chance
<LaserJock> people really want something
<Burgundavia> BigPick: the other challenge is that this week was teh Ubuntu Developers Summit, so lots of developers were heads down in person to person meetings
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: people wanting something != project has a chance
<BigPick> Bug 107188
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 107188 in update-manager "[MASTER] [kde] Upgrade tool crashed with " Cannot allocate memory"" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/107188
<Burgundavia> if wishes were horses, I would have a better latop
<BigPick> This bug has existed for over a year. I had the same issue during Edgy->Feisty.
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: no, I'm saying it has a chance *and* people seem to want it
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: right
<KeybukKit> BigPick: it's kde specific?
<LaserJock> but it really does need to get picked up
<BigPick> BigPick: No, I gave a detailed explanation of why it wasn't.
<BigPick> I just refrenced myslef....LMAO
<mpt> LaserJock, I get the impression that the proportion of Ubuntu SoC projects that actually end up in Ubuntu is alarmingly small
<mpt> Though maybe I just look at the wrong ones
<KeybukKit> mvo seems quite active on that bug
<BigPick> No, it is not kde specific, but it is caused by an anomaly in kubuntu-desktop.
<Fujitsu> mpt: Which ones have made it in?
<BigPick> Check the dates.
<mpt> Fujitsu, no idea
<BigPick> Bug 154195
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 154195 in ubuntu "Gutsy cdromupgrade script fails" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/154195
<LaserJock> mpt: I think that's an Ubuntu problem and not an SoC problem
<BigPick> Thats the bug I filed for the second memory leak as reported by the user "Christian Assig" patch also included.
<KeybukKit> BigPick: right, your patch is very very recent
<pwnguin> colorfilter made it into ubuntu
<Fujitsu> pwnguin: Aha, true.
<pwnguin> i thought it was kinda nifty
<LaserJock> mpt: check out the screenshots at http://laserjock.us/files/ubuntu/soc/
<BigPick> No, not that date, mvo's last response to the bug was six months ago.
<pwnguin> but not finished
<KeybukKit> BigPick: there was no new information until your post though
<pwnguin> for example, it would have been neat to have a "this is what colorblind people see" set of filters
<Burgundavia> pwnguin: that has been suggested a lot fo times
<pwnguin> i thought it was just me
<KeybukKit> BigPick: simple reality is that we have more users than we have developers
<KeybukKit> number of bugs is proportional to number of users
<KeybukKit> ergo we have more bugs than we have developers
<pwnguin> i thought software was a commodity :P
<KeybukKit> since this is greater by a factor of several thousand, we do rely on technologically inclined community members and users to help out with the bug triage
<KeybukKit> which you've done
<KeybukKit> which is great ;)
<BigPick> I understand, but this is the first time it has been acknowledged as "new information"
<KeybukKit> I've tagged the bug so that mvo knows there's a patch on it
<Burgundavia> KeybukKit: I think this exposes an LP bug. GNOME bugzilla lists bugs that have patches and have a standard tag for them. We need one
<KeybukKit> sure, but this isn't surprising since for the entire time since your message, our developers have been at the UDS planning the next release
<mpt> LaserJock, so maybe if you have some time you could ask the relevant Ubuntu people how to improve SoC effectiveness (since you know much more about it than me)
<BigPick> I have not been able to contact mvo, and up until now I was flatly told that it was either adepts or KDEs problem.
<KeybukKit> from the text above in the bug, that was a reasonable explanation
<Fujitsu> Burgundavia: Attaching something marked as a patch flags it, and allows us to search.
<Burgundavia> Fujitsu: does it now?
<Fujitsu> Burgundavia: It has for at least a year.
<BigPick> You can see how it is extremely frustrating for a non-developer to try and submit this stuff.
<Burgundavia> Fujitsu: I have been using LP for so long, sometimes I miss these things
<KeybukKit> indeed, which is why we encourage non-developers to use the answer tracker rather than the bug tracking system
<Fujitsu> Burgundavia: It has been there as long as I can remember, I think.
<Fujitsu> Which is a good couple of years.
<Fujitsu> And more.
<Burgundavia> hmm, maybe you are right
<Burgundavia> likely it is just not very obivous
<Burgundavia> LP is like that
<Fujitsu> Yeah.
<KeybukKit> I appreciate that you worked hard on the patch
<KeybukKit> and triumphantly submitted it to LP thinking you'd get a quick response
<KeybukKit> sadly this is the busiest time for our developers, who simply won't have had time to keep up with their bugs at this point
<BigPick> Its not a quick response issue. I'm not trying to toot my own horn here.
<KeybukKit> we've finished one release, and are opening the next
<BigPick> I'm trying to point out how a major bug like this has been continuing over three release cycles now.
<KeybukKit> many bugs like that persist
<KeybukKit> sad reality of software development
<KeybukKit> how much time would you estimate you spent tracking it down?
<KeybukKit> 6 hours?  10 hours?
<KeybukKit> a really bad one might take an entire day
<BigPick> A fraction of the time it took me to recover the three boxes it corrupted.
<KeybukKit> if we have a only thousand of those, that's three years of one developer's time!
<KeybukKit> we receive several hundred bugs a day
<KeybukKit> (at this point, it's probably closer to a thousand a day)
<pwnguin> did anyone record the UDS sessions?
<mpt> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/bug-volume
<KeybukKit> so a large part of bug triage is waiting for new information
<mpt> pwnguin, no
<pwnguin> sad
<mpt> pwnguin, well, not that we know of
<KeybukKit> sometimes it can be an offhand comment in a bug that leads you to explore a new idea
<BigPick> I'm on the buglist, I feel you on the sheer bolume.
<BigPick> *volume
<KeybukKit> and sometimes it's a skilled person who tracks the bug down themselves
<LaserJock> mpt: I bet when we had it at Google HQ they recorded everything ;-)
<KeybukKit> the majority of Ubuntu developers are people just like you, who do this in their spare time simply because they love it
<Fujitsu> Wouldn't somebody (the sysadmins?) have recorded them through VoIP?
<LaserJock> and there's only around ~100 developers
<pwnguin> i bet google doesnt have a bug tracker. you just say that their software has a bug anywhere on the net and their super web searcher apps report it for you.
<Fujitsu> LaserJock: We have exactly 100 in ~ubuntu-dev at the moment.
<Fujitsu> And a lot of them are inactive.
<pwnguin> Fujitsu: i assumed if icecast was set up, there'd be a recording
<KeybukKit> Fujitsu: as mentioned in the wrap-up, recording likely requires consent
<mpt> Fujitsu, that was discussed at the wrapup session, and (afaict) the answer was no
<BigPick> I understand the logistics, I understand the passion. But when my co-workers ask me why kubuntu would release a new version if the ugrader caused our computers to become inoperable... how am I supposed to answer them.
<Fujitsu> KeybukKit: Ah, true.
<pwnguin> heh, recording requires consent, but broadcasting doesn't?
<persia> KeybukKit: That just requires advertisement that there is an open channel, and all activites are being recorded.
<BigPick> I have since had to revert our linux boxes back to Windows.
<KeybukKit> BigPick: Kubuntu will release a version within the next six months
<persia> pwnguin: Actually, the same rules apply, but it's harder to show evidence of transient broadcasting without recording it oneself, which makes it null due to cross-violations
<KeybukKit> we *always* release a new version within the next six months
<mpt> pwnguin, you're right about the Google bug tracker. http://daringfireball.net/2004/05/writing_for_google
<pwnguin> heh
<pwnguin> awesome
<pwnguin> i was thinking that might be the case the other day when i found a bug in liferea / google video rss
<BigPick> KeybukKit: I told them that six months ago when the same thing happened to our Edgy installs. And they believed me. Its six months later and I can't ask them to believe that again.
<pwnguin> cuz about 4 days after i filed the bug in liferea, the rss changed
<KeybukKit> BigPick: until the bug is marked Fix Released, there's no guarantee
<KeybukKit> and, not to put too fine a point on it
<KeybukKit> when did Microsoft last respond to a bug report you filed on Windows?
<KeybukKit> and what's their average turn-around time on bug fixes?
<mpt> mswish@microsoft.com
<persia> KeybukKit: That's not entirely fair.  Microsoft does respond to bug reports for some customers, and does send fixes, sometimes even quickly.  I also think we're faster, but...
<KeybukKit> persia: paying customers ;)
 * pwnguin notes that canonical sells rapid reponse contracts
<pwnguin> rather cheaply last i looked
<KeybukKit> not just customers that pay for the software either
<KeybukKit> you have to pay more on top for the support
<persia> KeybukKit: I'd rather consider them "Customers with valid licenses", but sure...
<persia> KeybukKit: Well, depends.  Sufficiently large userbases (>5000 users) tend to get a bit of support even when they haven't paid for extra, but that's admittedly different.
<BigPick> I'm sorry but I don't consider that to be in keeping with our mission.
<KeybukKit> our mission doesn't escape the fact that even if we hired every single Linux developer there is, we still couldn't give every single bug the attention it deservers
<LaserJock> BigPick: I certainly understand the frustration, it's just a very difficult problem
<pwnguin> KeybukKit: im not sure on that
<pwnguin> KeybukKit: but its certainly not a cheap option
<mpt> LaserJock, those screenshots are pretty scary
<BigPick> Six months difficult?
<mpt> Nested tabs! That's the first time I've seen those in the past several years
<KeybukKit> BigPick: ?
<KeybukKit> six months is our release schedule period
<BigPick> This bug was originally nominated for Feisty. As you can see Cimmo has now nominated it for Hardy.
<KeybukKit> yes, but without a fix, that's meaningless
<KeybukKit> the bug hasn't had a patch until last week
<BigPick> And I still don't understand how that can happen. We are talking about the official upgrade process here, not some universe package.
<pwnguin> if its very hard to reproduce, that would be one reason
<KeybukKit> because there was nothing in the bug to suggest it was anything other than a low memory condition
<KeybukKit> it only appeared to (and was tagged to say) it only affected Kubuntu, which is largely community supported
<KeybukKit> and as pwnguin says, it was probably hard to reproduce
<BigPick> There are 85 duplicate reports.
<KeybukKit> (given that kubuntu upgrades are tested every single release, and nobody encountered it)
<KeybukKit> right, but those duplicates don't *add new information*
<KeybukKit> you were the first person to do taht
<KeybukKit> so Michael would have had to spend days, maybe even weeks, just on that *one bug*
<BigPick> The reports clearly state that the bug cause the upgrader to crash and in many instances rendered the machine unbootable.
<KeybukKit> we have far more serious bug reports than that
<desrt> KeybukKit; dpkg list says "say it ain't so!"
<KeybukKit> we do, honestly, try to fix as many bugs as we can
<KeybukKit> desrt: ? :)
<desrt> actually, this guy named joey wrote an extremely detailed and thoughtful reply
<desrt> explaining why he thinks it is a bad idea
<BigPick> Wait... if the machine becomes unusable... I'm not sure how much worse it can get. I lost six months of data that I had to recover off a backup server.
<KeybukKit> BigPick: if 8,000,000 machines become unusable, it's worse than 80
<Fujitsu> BigPick: It corrupted the filesystem?
<BigPick> Yes, it corrupted the filesystem on one of my boxes.
<KeybukKit> BigPick: how did it corrupt the filesystem?
<desrt> KeybukKit; wrote back.  we'll see what comes of it.
<KeybukKit> BigPick: what happened when you selected recovery mode?
<BigPick> On another it left KDE half installed, and on the third, I had use a live CD to chroot and reinstall the image.
<KeybukKit> ok, so it didn't corrupt the filesystem
<KeybukKit> it just left the upgrade part-finished
<KeybukKit> your data was intact
<KeybukKit>   dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/hda1  <=  corrupted filesystem
<BigPick> No, on one server my ext3 partitions, including /home/ reported bad master blocks. No I could of fired up my knoppix CD and spent several hours fscking it but I went with the backup.
<KeybukKit> that would not have been caused by the upgrade failure
<BigPick> It worked before.
 * Fujitsu doesn't often see dpkg screwing around below the VFS level.
<mpt> persia, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LogoutDialog
<KeybukKit> mpt: random rename? :p
<mpt> KeybukKit, I like puns
<Fujitsu> mpt: I like to be able to close my lid without suspending, TYVM.
<KeybukKit> Fujitsu: that's in the Power Management prefs
<pwnguin> mpt: that article wasn't quite what i meant, interesting none the less
<mpt> ugh, wiki.ubuntu.com's <dl><dt><dd> presentation is wonky
<pwnguin> mpt: also, i cant help but really not trust Vista's hybrid suspend.
<persia> mpt: 1) mobile-as-PMP: can suspend be triggered on lack of audio, rather than lid close?
<mpt> Fujitsu, what KeybukKit said (and see "Assumptions" #4)
<persia> 2) workstation as home server: can desktop-suspend-after-timeout be disabled by default?
<persia> 3) What about hardware for which the support isn't there (like my current workstation)
<pwnguin> persia: 2) afaik, gnome won't even present suspend or hibernate if it doesnt believe it can be done
<mpt> persia, (1) What's PMP?
<Fujitsu> mpt: It seems pretty silly to remove the suspension option from the UI entirely.
<persia> pwnguin: GNOME isn't onniscient :)
<Fujitsu> At least an option to bring the button back would probably make sense.
<mpt> persia, (2) Sure, "Never" would be at one end of the slider
<persia> mpt: Personal-media-player.  My 4.7" laptop has a 6GB drive, which is sufficient for a bit of music.  I often close the lid and use earphones when I'm on the train.
<mpt> persia, (3) see (2)
<persia> mpt: For (2), (3), I guess I'm just asking for "Never" to be default.  I'd rather have to explain how to enable power-savings for desktops than explain why things stop working.  This is especially interesting for use cases like home music server, mythtv, etc.
<mpt> persia, so you have an iPod Kilo?
<persia> mpt: Zaurus
 * mpt ducks
 * Fujitsu has been very irritated on multiple occasions when he has been copying stuff from a machine, and it went to sleep.
<mpt> persia, I expect "Never" would be the default, yes
<Fujitsu> Ah, good.
<mpt> For "When Using Mains Power", at least
<persia> mpt: Excellent.  Other than the specialised case of mobile-as-PMP, it looks great.  Thanks for the writeup.
 * pwnguin really dislikes the idea of transitioning from suspend to hibernate
<persia> mpt: Most desktop use cases are always "When Using Mains Power", no?
<Fujitsu> pwnguin: But Vista does it!
<persia> pwnguin: Why?  If my battery is low, wouldn't it be better to save state in hibernate then silently crash?
<pwnguin> Example: close the lid, place in backpack. halfway to your class, disk activity ensues
<pwnguin> your drive is now active while being bounced around...
<Fujitsu> Wouldn't it have to write the RAM out before sleeping?
<KeybukKit> ==15087== Warning: invalid file descriptor 1021 in syscall open()
<KeybukKit> err. WTF?!
<Fujitsu> It can't wake up due to low power, surely..
<persia> pwnguin: Good point.  Extra bonus for including motion sensors in all portable devices.
<pwnguin> heh
<pwnguin> Fujitsu: vista does it!
<mpt> persia, right, so if you're using a computer that doesn't have a battery you wouldn't have the "When Using Battery" tab at all
<persia> Fujitsu: No, but it can wake up after a configurable timeout, and then hibernate.
<Fujitsu> persia: Ah, true.
<Fujitsu> pwnguin: I think it writes out to the swap partition first.
<persia> mpt: What about mobile-PMP.  I think that's better solved by trapping suspend to not happen during audio playback, but I'm really not sure how to implement that with the current ACPI-events model.
<pwnguin> question: whats the difference between switch user and lock screen?
<Fujitsu> persia: Or even just sitting-on-the-desk-PMP.
<KeybukKit> pwnguin: lock screen is a security feature
<persia> (Zaurus suspends when the playlist is complete)
<pwnguin> KeybukKit: and switch user isnt?
<persia> Fujitsu: In that case, it's not as obnoxious to keep the lid open.
<KeybukKit> pwnguin: switch user is changing user on the machine
<Fujitsu> persia: This is true.
<KeybukKit> lock screen is because you're leaving your laptop unattended in a room of people you don't trust not to say rude things on IRC with your nickname
<Fujitsu> Weren't Switch User and Lock Screen meant to be merged in unify-login-unlock?
<persia> pwnguin: Good point.
<mpt> persia, that's an interesting question. I'm not sure that's more common than a bunch of other "Sleep if X" cases, for which it would be better to write a script than to have checkboxes for them all.
<KeybukKit> eventually
<pwnguin> if gdm was a bit smarter about tracking who's logged in
<pwnguin> i think you could merge the two ala XP
<KeybukKit> pwnguin: yeah
<persia> mpt: Perhaps.  Do you see timeout-suspend having a different hook than lid-close suspend?
<KeybukKit> and if we could switch to gdm without having to fire up another X server ...
<KeybukKit> ;)
<mpt> persia, sorry, don't know what you mean by "hook"
<mpt> I are just a UI designar
<persia> mpt: triggering different scripts.  Currently lid-close triggers /etc/acpi/lid.  I don't know how timeout works.  If both then called the same configurable "I'm suspending" model, it makes sense.  In most implementations I've seen, /etc/acpi/lid just calls the suspend routines fairly directly.
<persia> mpt: To put it in UI terms: do you imagine that a user should expect different behaviour from timeout and lid close?
 * pwnguin thinks you should fix totem before trying any suspend on idle shennanigans
<persia> mpt: The argument for different behavioiur is that lid-close typically indicates intent.  The argument for the same behaviour is that it makes things like mobile-as-PMP easy.
<KeybukKit> pwnguin: "fix totem" ?
<mpt> persia, I don't know enough to have a useful opinion about that.
<pwnguin> KeybukKit: for some reason it fails to actually disable dpms
<mpt> For example, I don't know how common it is for other scripts to call /etc/acpi/lid already.
<pwnguin> i guess that your timer would be based on gnomescrensaver, which i think it handles correctly
<persia> mpt: OK.  Ignore implementation.  Just in terms of behaviour.  As a UI expert, how much do you believe the lid-close action indicates a specific intent to disable the computer, vs. indicating that input and video output are likely suspended for a while?
<desrt> it is quite an annoying historical accident that the gplv3 wasn't around for khtml >:|
<Mithrandir> desrt: how so?
<desrt> think: iphone
<Mithrandir> well, the iphone is quite easy to get into
<desrt> true enough
<pwnguin> note that converting a tablet PC from laptop to tablet mode will trigger a lid event.
<persia> pwnguin: Depends on the hardware.  For my Stylistic, there is no lid event (not a convertible).  For my Zaurus, there are two events, one for closed, and one for now in tablet mode
<pwnguin> fortunately, it seems to be smart enough at the moment to check if the switch is open or closed before shutdown
<pwnguin> persia: ive been chatting with another tecra m7 owner, and to the best of our knowledge acpi is missing an event
<persia> pwnguin: That doesn't surprise me.  The Zaurus actually traps the "now closed" and "now in tablet mode" as /dev/input events
<pwnguin> for our device at least
<mpt> persia, I think it indicates intent to put laptops in low-/zero-power mode 99% of the time. What it means for other devices, I know only what you've just said to pwnguin.
<persia> mpt: That makes sense.  So perhaps for i386/amd64, lid-close should be special, and just suspend, whereas for lpia, it might instead trigger a more nuanced suspend decision?
 * persia wishes for an lpia device with the Zaurus form factor, or Ubuntu ARM
<mpt> What's lpia?
<pwnguin> low power intel arch
<persia> mpt: The -mobile architecure (Low Power Intel Architecture)
<pwnguin> i386 for seekret tech
<mpt> What does the Classmate PC use?
<Mithrandir> mpt: you might have heard of this project called ubuntu mobile?
<Mithrandir> unsure, not lpia since they're not in production yet
<mpt> Mithrandir, I have indeed
<LaserJock> Mithrandir: is that like jdub's world tour? ;-)
<LaserJock> mpt: it's a "regular" intel chip
<mpt> See, this is why persia shouldn't be asking me these questions ;-)
<Mithrandir> (also, I disagree with you about a wish to enter low power mode - people also quite often close their laptops when docking them)
<LaserJock> mpt: IntelÂ® Mobile Processor ULV 900 MHz, Zero L2 cache, 400 MHz FSB
<persia> mpt: You're an expert on user-interaction.  My apologies when I ask questions with too many technical references: I'm really seeking your input on good UI.
<persia> Mithrandir: Good point.  Do you think we should trigger the "what am I doing now" script on lid close, to check "am I docked?", "am I playing audio", "am I feeding video to an external device", etc.?
<mpt> That might be nifty
<persia> (with the idea that the "what am I doing now" script would also be called after n seconds for timeout suspends)
<Mithrandir> persia: that might be a start.  I'm not convinced it's possible to know from a script either, but it'll at least stand a somewhat better chance
<persia> Mithrandir: Just thinking blue-sky, I'm just thinking that we have a set of external events that triggers some plugin-based configurable utility to check if X conditions are true prior to suspending.  Of course, this requires 1) hardware support, 2) software support, 3) design, and 4) implementation.
<Mithrandir> persia: how is the system going to know the difference between "I want to go to work and am closing the lid so the laptop will suspend" and "I want to move the laptop from one room to another, but I close it since it's then easier to carry"?  In the latter case, I might well want it to keep playing.
<Mithrandir> so sure, it'd be a start.  I just don't think covering such a use case is feasible
<pwnguin> frankly, im not even sold on "7 is too many buttons"
<persia> Mithrandir: That's a tricky distinction, but I like the idea of using lid-close to do something, rather than having a menu entry.
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: clearly playing something inhibits the suspend
<Keybuk> if you're idle, it doesn't matter whether you suspend or not
<Keybuk> on mobile, typically you'll want to micro-suspend a lot anyway
<persia> Keybuk: So, always call the "what am I doing now" script?
<Keybuk> but hardware into the lowest possible state
<Keybuk> persia: no
<Keybuk> never have any script to do that
<persia> And yes, suspending to walk between rooms is normal for the mobile case
<Keybuk> just use D-BUS to do the right things
<pwnguin> theres a what am i doing state, and use dbus to set it?
<Keybuk> you can use d-bus to inhibit screensaver or suspend, etc.
<persia> Keybuk: Sure.  Implementation aside: always check current system state to make a suspend decision, rather than attempting to divine user intent.
<Keybuk> (playing music might inhibit suspend, playing video might inhibit both)
<persia> mpt: Any objection to the modification of the lid-close assumption in ExitStrategy?  I'm thinking something like: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/43090/
<Keybuk> persia: objection is that it shouldn't check
<Keybuk> it should simply be inhibited
<Keybuk> out of scope for hardy
<Keybuk> where we will simply go with what we have right now
<Keybuk> (which is that your laptop suspends when you close the lid while on battery)
<persia> Keybuk: Exit-strategy is in-scope for Hardy?
<Keybuk> yes
<persia> Ah.  Well, as I can't actually run Ubuntu on the device that would be affected, I'll not change anything.  Thanks.
<mpt> persia, "docked" means connected to another computer?
<pwnguin> not really
<persia> mpt: Connected to a "dock" or "port replicator" device.  These generally allow external audio / video / input to a closed laptop/
<mpt> ok
<pwnguin> basically think of it as a converter from laptop to desktop
<Fujitsu> persia: Why can't you run Ubuntu on it? ARM?
<persia> mpt: So, one might get home, put the laptop in the dock, and use a real screen and keyboard at ones desk.  When one goes out, one undocks the laptop, and typical usage patterns resume.
<persia> Fujitsu: Yep.  ARM.  The new Fujitsu devices are almost small enough, but they only fit in two of my suits.
<pwnguin> Fujitsu: out of curiousity, is your name related to the manufacturer?
<Fujitsu> pwnguin: This nick goes back several years. A friend decided wgrant wasn't a good enough username for my account on his system, and he had a Fujitsu hard disk next to him at the time..
<pwnguin> hmm. on the one hand, i like using real names, on the other hand, pwnguin was just too awesome to pass up
<pwnguin> maybe some day i'll hand this alias off to a bot and resume using my real name
<mekius> Hi, custom live cd and when it boots up, update-notifier displays a few errors about some packages.  Is there a way to easily clear these?
<hunger_t> When will xserver-xorg-core become installable again on hardy?
<persia> hunger_t: When it gets fixed.  Is it blocking you in some way?
<hunger_t> persia: Nope, I am just curious since it is broken for a couple of days now.
<hunger_t> persia: I am on hardy... if a little breakage would block me then I would be pretty stupid to do that.
<persia> hunger_t: The development summit was last week, and people are travelling now.  Unless it's blocking the people working, it probably won't get real attention until next week.
<hunger_t> persia: Thats what I thought. But I was repeatedly told that merges were in full swing, even in spite of the summit and all:-)
<persia> hunger_t: That's definitely been true.  Lots of stuff uploaded & merged.  Not so much attention to making sure it integrates yet.
<Fujitsu> There are also several thousand builds still pending - I suspect the drivers that are needed for xserver 1.4 are yet to be built.
<tepsipakki> hunger_t: there are still a lot of drivers not built against it, so it'll take a while
<tepsipakki> oh, Fujitsu told that already :)
<Fujitsu> Potentially another week or so.
<tepsipakki> could be
<Hobbsee> tepsipakki: anything interesting in it?
<tepsipakki> Hobbsee: in X?
<Hobbsee> tepsipakki: yeah, the new X stuff
<tepsipakki> Hobbsee: well, the input-hotplug -support, which we need to sort out :)
 * Hobbsee nods
<tepsipakki> currently it's disabled by the newest hal, because it has some issues
<persia> tepsipakki: Are there any good docs on that?  I've an excess of keyboards, mice, and joysticks attached, and am curious what will happen :)
<tepsipakki> persia: when you have hardy, just put the fdi file from /u/s/d/hal/ in /etc/hal/fdi/policy, and off you go :)
<tepsipakki> it should work pretty well
<tepsipakki> I've played with it a bit
<Hobbsee> tepsipakki: new revision of -intel hasnt broken yet, btw.  if you care :)
<persia> tepsipakki: Right.  Are there any docs that could tell me what will happen before I do that?  I want to prepare adjustments for nostromo, gizmod, etc.
<tepsipakki> Hobbsee: cool, bryce is happy then :)
<Hobbsee> tepsipakki: you're supposed to break something, dammit!  :P
<Hobbsee> hardy isnt supposed to mostly work.
<tepsipakki> persia: docs about the i-h? I'm not sure, it's pretty simple to set up
<tepsipakki> Hobbsee: well, it should also go to gutsy as SRU
<persia> tepsipakki: That's about what I found before: simple config hints, overviews, and code.  No deep docs.  I'll chase code then.  Thanks.
<tepsipakki> persia: heh, yeah. ask daniels on #xorg-devel if you want the dirty details ;)
<persia> tepsipakki: Nah: I doubt they'll translate well on IRC (and he's busy enough that I don't want to complain too much about a lack of docs for something that just works (and is a clear improvement))
 * tepsipakki nods
<rohan> in this bug - https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/133677 - would be advisable to attach the files which are asked for individually, or as one gzip file ?
<rohan> i've been asked to attach almost 6-7 files .. wouldn't it be too much 'spam' to attach each of them individually ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 133677 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "System unusable after resume from suspend or hibernate" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<Hobbsee> rohan: may as well add them all together
<geser> rohan: both ways have it advantages and disadvantages: one file is only one attachment but everyone who wants to look at the files needs to unpack them first
<rohan> Hobbsee: in a gzip file ?
<rohan> geser: what do you suggest ?
<Hobbsee> gzip file works.
 * persia likes lots of little files, but LP is annoying so that makes lots of little comments, which is annoying
<Hobbsee> pitti!
 * Hobbsee hugs pitti
<rohan> pitti: exactly !
<pitti> Good morning!
 * pitti hugs Hobbsee back
<Hobbsee> :D
<Hobbsee> pitti: what will you end up doing today, actually having a weekend off?
<rohan> err sorry .. i meant persia not pitti
<pitti> Hobbsee: I want do do some Debian stuff, go to lunch with some kernel guys, and visit the Boston science museum in the afternoon
<rohan> well forget it i'll attach both :P
<Hobbsee> pitti: nice :)
<Hobbsee> pitti: poke StevenK onto irc please.
<Hobbsee> if he's near you
<pitti> Hobbsee: he's still happily snoring along in his bed :)
 * pitti tries to not type too loudly
<Hobbsee> pitti: *snort*.
 * Hobbsee doubts you'll wake him up typing.
<rohan> there should really be a way in launchpad to attach multiple files in a single step
<persia> rohan: There should be.  Until then, a tar isn't that bad.
<desrt> pitti; !
<desrt> pitti; seb was sleeping (wtf!)
<pitti> desrt: lazy French guys *tsk*
<desrt> srsly.
 * pitti hands desrt Hobbsee's long pointy stick
<rohan> persia: hehe check out what i did .. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/133677
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 133677 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "System unusable after resume from suspend or hibernate" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<desrt> eh.  he already looked annoyed enough that i woke him up by knocking on his door
<desrt> better put the stick away :p
<persia> rohan: That has all the disadvantages of both.  You generate all the bugmail for the different attachments, and you end up with a big binary blob on launchpad.
<rohan> persia: exactly .. so i chose to the well .. ugliest way out it seems ;)
<SoulSeeker> can anybody tell my what is SFS file system, and why my NTFS file system is named like that ?
<jpatrick> !topic | SoulSeeker
<ubotu> SoulSeeker: Please read the channel topic whenever you enter, as it contains important information. To view it at any time after joining, simply type /topic
<rohan> persia: hehe, just got all the spam right now ;)
 * Hobbsee takes her stick back from desrt, and smacks pitti
<Hobbsee> mine!
<SoulSeeker> sorry
<rohan> Hobbsee: what is a desrt ? desert ?
<Hobbsee> rohan: i think the guy might complain if we ate him.
<Hobbsee> rohan: desrt is ryan lortie
<geser> Hobbsee: doesn't you eat people regularly?
<rohan> oh sorry it was a person ..
<rohan> btw any idea who "unggnu" is ?
<rohan> https://edge.launchpad.net/~unggnu/ --- no real name given :-/
<Hobbsee> geser: depends - i prefer to stab them with a stick, instead.
<Hobbsee> rohan: some people like using only an alias.
<geser> rohan: I remember seeing that nick in #ubuntu-de (but not right now)
<Hobbsee> i did, until they talked about giving me a plain ticket to come to a developer summit :P
<rohan> Hobbsee: hahaha
<rohan> did you get the plane ticket, after all ?
<Hobbsee> oh yes
<Hobbsee> sevilla was great.
<rohan> which one ? boston ?
<rohan> oh
<geser> Hobbsee: how did you get your LongPointyStick into the plane? or did you travel without it?
<Hobbsee> geser: i brought it with me.
<Hobbsee> geser: magical powers
<zul> because of that Hobbsee is now on the no-fly list
<geser> Hi bddebian
<Hobbsee> Sysinfo for 'LongPointyStick': Linux 2.6.22-14-generic running KDE 3.5.8, CPU: Genuine Intel(R) CPU           T2250  @ 1.73GHz at 1733 MHz (3458 bogomips), HD: 39/70GB, RAM: 1392/2018MB, 133 proc's, 7.12h up
<Hobbsee> zul: nah...
<bddebian> Heya gang
<bddebian> Hi geser
 * Keybuk tries to remember the spells and runes to summon jamiemcc
<Burgundavia> talk about beagle
<Nafallo> lol
<Burgundavia> jamiemcc@blueyonder.co.uk <-- Keybuk
<Nafallo> ehrm. no. Keybuk has another address...
<Robot101> Nafallo: no he was giving jamiemcc's address to Keybuk :P
<Nafallo> ;-)
<Burgundavia> Robot101: you need to blog more telepathy stuffs
<pitti> asac: do we actually need icedove-locales in Hardy? (it's imported from Debian)
<Robot101> Burgundavia: probably true, yeah :P
<Burgundavia> Keybuk: jamiemcc@blueyonder.co.uk
<Burgundavia> if you didn't get it before you dropped off
<Keybuk> Burgundavia: that would be fine, except tracker is hitting my system so hard I can't actually open evolution
<Burgundavia> oh, geez
<Burgundavia> beagle was doing that last night, with the 5GB fake drive qemu had created
<Burgundavia> I was testing the developer preview live cd of solaris
<Burgundavia> the live cd requires a hard drive to boot
<Keybuk> tracker has apparently indexed every file and directory over 200 times
<Keybuk> according to its own stats
<Nafallo> lol
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: so it's _really_ sure about what the file contains, then?
<Nafallo> *asg~*
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: but it migth have changed!  it needs to check!
 * persia wonders if there is +atime vs. +mtime confusion
<Mithrandir> I guess Scott didn't run it with --disable-awty-mode
<LaserJock> has it changed yet? .... has it changed yet? .... has it changed yet?
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: I boot the kernel with noadd on the command line
<hunger_t> tepsipakki: Thanks for the info on fix time for xorg-core. I assumed as much, but it is nice to get that confirmed.
<Nafallo> LaserJock: rotfl
 * hunger_t is afraid that LaserJock is making fun of him.
<Nafallo> hunger_t: are you tracker? :-)
<LaserJock> hunger_t: no Keybuk's tracker
<hunger_t> Nafallo: Nope, but I must sound a bit like that here on the channel:-) Constantly asking about where stuff is stuck at any time.
<Nafallo> hunger_t: better then to reinsex files hundreds of times anyway... ;-)
<Nafallo> ehrm. reINDEX
<Nafallo> damnit!
<sladen> Keybuk: ha!
<somerville32> wow.
<Keybuk> jamiemcc: so, err
<Keybuk> you must really hate coming on IRC
<Keybuk> because you know somebody is going to have some awesome tracker bug they want to talk to you about ;)
<Keybuk> like trackerd has indexed 200 more directories than actually exist on the filesystem, or something
<jamiemcc> Keybuk: really?
<jamiemcc> Keybuk: thats a know corruption problem that should now be fixed in svn
<Keybuk> it seems to be indexing the same things over and over again
<Keybuk> wing-commander scott% find -type d | wc -l
<Keybuk> 17212
<Keybuk> wing-commander scott% tracker-stats | grep Folders
<Keybuk> Folders : 3671974
<jamiemcc> Keybuk: we now check for corruption if trackerd was not shut down cleanly
<jamiemcc> and force reindex if necessary
<Keybuk> can I do that myself?
<jamiemcc> dont think so - but you can reindex trackerd --reindex
<jamiemcc> im planning a release with that fix on monday
<Keybuk> should I wipe the cache first?
<jamiemcc> --reindex does that
<Keybuk> ok, I'll give that a go
<jamiemcc> Keybuk: corruption occurs cause gnome-session does kill -9 trackerd while its indexing
<Keybuk> jamiemcc: heh
<Keybuk> RCU FTW
<Keybuk> jamiemcc: I wonder whether it happened because I increased the inotify watch count so that it could actually index my entire home dir
<jamiemcc> Keybuk: dont think so as we still crawl all directories at startup if they are not indexed
<Keybuk> ah right
<Keybuk> jamiemcc: so, err
<Keybuk> tracker appears to have detected glibc and is bailing out a lot
<jamiemcc> Keybuk: ?
<Keybuk> *** glibc detected *** identify: free(): invalid pointer: 0xb761e000 ***
<jamiemcc> eek
<Keybuk> /usr/lib/libMagick.so.9(RelinquishMagickMemory+0x21)[0xb7d476b1]
<Keybuk> /usr/lib/libMagick.so.9[0xb7da1e27]
<Keybuk> /usr/lib/libMagick.so.9(DestroyImagePixels+0x69)[0xb7c7d859]
<Keybuk> /usr/lib/libMagick.so.9(DestroyImage+0x80)[0xb7d2f050]
<Keybuk> /usr/lib/libMagick.so.9(DestroyImageList+0x62)[0xb7d3fe02]
<Keybuk> /usr/lib/libMagick.so.9(IdentifyImageCommand+0x451)[0xb7d2a0b1]
<Keybuk> identify[0x8048ae9]
<jamiemcc> oh thats tracker-extract - ignore it
<Keybuk> ok
<jamiemcc> it just means it could not extract metadata
<jamiemcc> and imagemagick is quite buggy in that regard
<Keybuk> yeah, it's /usr/bin/identify crashing
<Keybuk> sorry for alarming you ;)
<Cerberius> Hi everyone
<somerville32> Hi
<Cerberius> i need some help downloading torrents in ubuntu
<Cerberius> i try with several client... azereus, bittorrent... and download never begin!!
<Nafallo> Cerberius: #ubuntu is the correct channel, and you only need to click on them anyway.
<Cerberius> thanks!
<mwolson> could i get a sponsor for the main archive to prioritize uploading the security fix in Bug #159525 to hardy, gutsy-security, and feisty-backports?
<ubotu> Bug 159525 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/159525 is private
<mwolson> now that there is a known exploit, i am very eager to get my fix uploaded
<mwolson> (i'm one of the maintainers of emacs22, the affected package)
<LaserJock> mwolson: geeze, it's even private for me, not a lot people can do with a bug they can't see
<mwolson> LaserJock: how do i fix that?  i don't recall doing anything special to make it private.
<mwolson> ah found the option
<LaserJock> mwolson: probably it's just the security team that has access
<mwolson> ok, it's no longer private now
<mwolson> that must have been the default value when i indicated that it was a security issue in the initial report
<LaserJock> yes, when they are listed as a security they are made private
<LaserJock> mwolson: you might want to see if keescook or pitti were around
<mwolson> i was hoping that they would be hanging out here
<LaserJock> well, it is the day after UDS
<crimsun_> kees is pretty good about processing; just hang tight
<crimsun_> mwolson: you could go ahead and modify the debdiff for a gutsy-security upload (using gutsy-security as the distro and 22.1-0ubuntu5.1 as the version)
<mwolson> crimsun_: would it be OK to leave my other changes in the gutsy-security upload (i've verified them to be correct, and they only affect debian/rules), or should i just use the minimal set of changes for -0ubuntu5.1?
<geser> LaserJock: does pitti still does security uploads?
<LaserJock> geser: have no idea but he can do anything ;-)
<geser> LP lists only keescook jdstrand and infinity as ~ubuntu-security members
<crimsun_> mwolson: the current one is sufficient [with above changes]
<LaserJock> all you need is an archive admin
<mwolson> alright, i'll post an additional debdiff for -0ubuntu5.1.
<crimsun_> I can go ahead and push 0ubuntu6 for hardy after you post it so there's no problem with versioning
<mwolson> i've attached the gutsy-security debdiff
<crimsun_> (pulling src)
<mwolson> heh, looks like lintian doesn't like "hardy" as a distribution name
<mwolson> also attached a debdiff for hardy
<mwolson> let me know what you want the package version number for feisty-backports to be
<crimsun_> 22.1-0ubuntu4~feisty2 would be fine
<crimsun_> uploaded to hardy.
<mwolson> excellent, thanks!
<mwolson> attached the debdiff for feisty-backports
<crimsun_> I've opened a gutsy task, too
<mwolson> (hmm ... though perhaps i should have added back the "Automated backport upload; no source changes." line before generating the feisty-backports debdiff -- let me know if that matters)
<crimsun_> not really an issue; core-dev can upload to foo-backports
<crimsun_> mwolson: for gutsy-security, it's best to include the CVE # in the changelog
<mwolson> ah.  need me to re-make the debdiff, or is it already on its way?
<crimsun_> for gutsy-security, rerolling is best
<mwolson> i've attached a new debdiff for gutsy-security that adds the CVE #
<crimsun_> uploaded to feisty-backports; pending accept.
<warp10> Hi all
<somerville32> Hi
<mdke_> Riddell: still getting emails for failed builds to the kubuntu-members ppa. Any solution for that? could a different ppa be used perhaps?
<Keybuk> I need to learn to stop being surprised when something works on Linux
<somerville32> lol
<Fujitsu> Keybuk: What works?
<Keybuk> Network Manager offers my USB-connected phone as a possible network device to use
<Fujitsu> Ah, nice.
<StevenK> Keybuk: And it would probably be faster than the hotel network
<Keybuk> and somewhat more expensive ;)
<Keybuk> though it can only see GSM and GPRS from here
<Keybuk> no 3G
<Fujitsu> Keybuk: For very large values of somewhat?
<Keybuk> indeed
<jdong> stupid rain, I don't wanna go out to get food....
<somerville32> I'm hungry too :(
 * jdong grabs a flashlight and waterproof coat and preps himself
<somerville32> Send some my way, will you? We have a tropical storm ATM
#ubuntu-devel 2007-11-04
<bluefox_> fuck
<bluefox_> the kernel hard locked
<bluefox_> sysrq O, I, and R did nothing ><
<Fujitsu> !ohmy | bluefox_
<ubotu> bluefox_: Please watch your language and topic, and keep this channel family friendly.
<somerville32> I think it is ctrl+alt+shift+sysrq
<Fujitsu> bluefox_: Did B work?
<bluefox_> no, it's alt+printscreen+thingy
<bluefox_> I didn't try B, I tried O though
<bluefox_> (Off)
<Fujitsu> Ah.
<somerville32> B reboots doesn't it?
<Fujitsu> It does.
<bluefox_> B is INT 19H
<jdong> bluefox_: B and O are somewhat broken in Gutsy-ish
<jdong> bluefox_: often times on SMP kernels it causes a sched_Atomic oops and doesn't reboot
<bluefox_> jdong:  well crud.
<bluefox_> I couldn't switch away from X anyway.
<jdong> bluefox_: you'd want to just sysrq REISU and then reset by hand
<TMM> hi! is there anyone here that would be willing to build a kernel module for me on an amd64 gutsy box?
<Lucifer> is there documentation to help me build a custom distribution based on ubuntu?
<LaserJock> Lucifer: I think there is some info on wiki.ubuntu.com
<Lucifer> hmmm, I searched there, I'll look harder
<Lucifer> er, I lied, I guess i looked at the one for end-users, thanks :)
<Lucifer> is there a channel for embedded ubuntu?  I'm building a robot, and I want to investigate ubuntu for the purpose :)
<somerville32> #ubuntu-mobile
<Lucifer> thanks :)
<Lucifer> just found on the wiki that they'd intended to release EmbeddedUbuntu alongside gutsy, so now I'm looking to see if they did that before I go make more of an ass of myself :)
 * Fujitsu thinks that that sort of silently vanished.
<ogra1> Keybuk, ARGH !!!!! please blacklist ltsp again
 * ogra1 curses very loudly sitting at the ltsp upstream merge event
<Keybuk> "merge event" ?
<TMM> anyone want to compile one tiny kernel module for me? it's not that I don't know how to, it's that I CAN'T :) I don't have an amd64 gutsy box to compile it on
<minghua> TMM: I don't think this is the right channel to make such requests.  Maybe try #ubuntu.
<Keybuk> ogra: be more verbose
<somerville32> ogra --verbose
<TMM> minghua: I'll try there again then... thanks
<ogra1> Keybuk, ltsp used to be blacklisted in mom
<Keybuk> ogra1: not true.
<Keybuk> ltsp-utils was blacklisted
<ogra1> please do that again ...
<ogra1> the gutsy packages got just overwritten in hardy with about 5 releases old stuff from debian
<ogra1> (because debian adds -0debian1 or so)
<ogra1> ltsp-client-core_5.0.39debian1_i386.deb is wrong ...
<Keybuk> who overwrote them?
<ogra1> ltsp should never ever be merged ...
<ogra1> ltsp-utils should not enetr ubuntu
<ogra1> *enter
<ogra1> btw how's the stom down there ... (we have high waves in front of the window here )
<ogra1> *storm
<somerville32> You guys have a storm too?
<Keybuk> ltsp has never been blacklisted
<Keybuk> also, I don't see any upload of ltsp to the archive
<Keybuk> oh, I see
<Keybuk> it was sync'd
<jcastro> Keybuk: his network just died
<jcastro> I will relay
<jcastro> ogra here, please blacklist it for now and i will upload a higher version to ubuntu for now
<jcastro> Keybuk...
<Keybuk> better to get an archive admin to do that
<Keybuk> though it's worth pointing out that the debian1 looks like it's all good changes that we want
<Keybuk> and ogra is panicking for no reason :p
<Mithrandir> ogra1: file a bug asking for it.
<Keybuk> Spads: welcome
<Spads> hiya
<jcastro> Keybuk: debian1 means we dont want it at all ... deian maintains their own ltsp version based on ours ... we're abot to solve that here
<Keybuk> I don't care :)
<somerville32> lol
<LaserJock> jcastro: hi
<jcastro> but the sync makes ltsp on ubuntu uninstallable (debian uses nfs we dropped that completelz)
<Keybuk> then ask for it to be blacklisted
<Keybuk> which he could have done before
<jcastro> which means we cant work tonight\
<Keybuk> why not?
<jcastro> so my two day travel to here was pointless
<jcastro> because debiootstrapping ltsp-client isnt possible\
<Keybuk> so fix it
<Keybuk> or use the old one
<Keybuk> this is not exactly rocket science
<jcastro> i cant without the archive
<Chipzz> jcastro: download previous version from launchpad and downgrade using dpkg -i ?
<jcastro> Chipzz: THAT DOESNT FIX THE ISSUES
<jcastro> EEK\
<Keybuk> what issues?
 * Keybuk hands jcastro a grip, since he appears to need to get one
<jcastro> sorry, not used to that keyboard
<Chipzz> it doesn't, but you'll be able to work??
<Keybuk> the sky is not falling here
<somerville32> It is here :/
 * somerville32 gets the storm shelter out.
<persia> jcastro: Could you make a temporary local mirror, and force-downgrade in the local mirror?
<jcastro> Keybuk: that we cant boot thin clients sice debian uses a totally different principle (nfs vs nbd/squashfs)
<Keybuk> (note: this was probably not the best phrase given the weather)
<Keybuk> jcastro: don't use debian then
<jcastro> Keybuk: well, mom synced it into hardy
<Keybuk> no, it didn't
<Keybuk> sync-source sync'd it into hardy
<jcastro> s/synced/let/
<Mithrandir> jcastro: upload a new version that reverts that, then?
<Keybuk> download the old one
<Mithrandir> no, mom doesn't sync anything.
<Keybuk> add a changelog entry higher than the one in hardy
<Keybuk> and upload again
<Keybuk> and slip ogra some kind of sedative to calm him down
<Fujitsu> And wait ten years for it to build.
<Keybuk> (though he is *funny* when he's having a panic attack :p)
<jcastro> Mithrandir: yes, i will, i was asking Keybuk to blacklist it to avoid that breakage while we work on teh new upstream base
<Keybuk> jcastro: I told you, file a bug
<jcastro> and was told he doesnt care
<Keybuk> Mithrandir told you too
<Keybuk> you don't need it blacklisted at 11pm on Saturday evening
<Keybuk> and I don't care because I AM NOT AN ARCHIVE ADMIN
<jcastro> ok
<Mithrandir> jcastro: uh, if you upload a version with ubuntu in the version number, it won't get synced in again automatically.
<Mithrandir> and blacklisting is not going to change anything.  That doesn't magically remove stuff from the archive.
<Keybuk> blacklisting would just prevent the next newer debian version from overwriting an older ubuntu one
<jcastro> Mithrandir: yes, i know ... we were upstream until now for ltsp, so debian/petter decided to tag it as we do in ubuntu
<Keybuk> and I strongly doubt the archive admins will sync source over a weekend
<jcastro> (with debian$ver)
<Mithrandir> jcastro: just tag the Ubuntu version too, then?
<Mithrandir> u &gt; d anyway.
<jcastro> well ...\
 * jcastro gives up
<jcastro> ok, ogra is off to smoke, I'm me again
 * Keybuk wanders around the room picking the toys up and putting them back in the pram
<LaserJock> heh
<jcastro> hi LaserJock!
<luisbg> LaserJock, heyy! =) hello
<LaserJock> hi jcastro and luisbg
<luisbg> LaserJock, how is the phd?
<luisbg> hey jcastro =)
<LaserJock> luisbg: progressing
<LaserJock> slowly, but going
<luisbg> that's good
<Mithrandir> seriously, if you guys had just done this twenty minutes ago, you'd have had the new version in this publisher cycle and been able to do your stuff in about 40 more minutes.
<jcastro> hi luisbg
<luisbg> jcastro, rock on!
<luisbg> http://news.yahoo.com/photo/071103/480/65be296cfcfb4b03a17a0cb0d6a19159;_ylt=ApA8EFQBRkSDmfNRNqhtfb4DW7oF
<luisbg> we need that kid ^^ to use ubuntu and develop in a few years
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> I remember removing the toilet seat one time
<Keybuk> the common experience of growing up in an otherwise female-only household
<luisbg> Keybuk, and what did you do when you had to seat down to do heavy stuff?
<Keybuk> luisbg: I removed it afterwards
<Keybuk> "Scott James!  Did you forget to put the toilet seat down again?  WHERE IS THE TOILET SEAT?!"
<ogra> heh
<luisbg> heh!
<dimas_> did you guys eat a lot tonight?
<dimas_> good evening
<luisbg> dimas_, good evening
<dimas_> where should i position it the toilet sit if i want to learn programing and contribute with ubuntu?
<minghua> Keybuk: I am indeed curious -- where did you hide it?
<LaserJock> haha, that reminds me of my younger brother
<LaserJock> when he was little he was going to trick us by putting honey on the toliet seat
<LaserJock> but then he forgot and sat on it himself before we did
<Fujitsu> Haha.
<LaserJock> that was so funny
<Keybuk> minghua: just in my room
<Keybuk> dimas_: toilet seat positioning isn't important provided there's somewhere to balance your laptop nearby
<LaserJock> Keybuk: amen to that
<dimas_> i like to have my woman to go first in the morning so i find it warm, so where that would be Keybuk?
<Keybuk> dimas_: that's outside my area of expertise, I'm afraid
<luisbg> are we really going to talk about toilet seats?
<Keybuk> luisbg: you brought them up
<luisbg> LOL
<luisbg> why is my @ubuntu.com email not working
<luisbg> who I have to talk for that?
<Fujitsu> luisbg: When did you become a member?
<luisbg> Fujitsu, like 2 months ago
<persia> luisbg: Did you tell LP about your new shiny email address?
<luisbg> persia, how do I tell LP about that?
<StevenK> luisbg: Is your address <nick>@u.c?
<Keybuk> RCPT TO:<luisbg@ubuntu.com>
<Keybuk> 250 Ok
<luisbg> yeap
<StevenK> Keybuk beat me to it
<StevenK> Keybuk: Feeling better?
<Keybuk> dunno whether that's a factor of the forwarding though
<Keybuk> since it also things foowizbit@ubuntu.com is Ok
<Keybuk> StevenK: a little
<luisbg> I used to send emails to my @u.c and got the failure return
<luisbg> now I just don't recieve anything
<luisbg> shouldn't it know it has to send it to the mail address I have in my LP account?
<StevenK> It should, yes.
<StevenK> If I find the person playing a DVD loudly on this floor ...
<StevenK> These hotel walls are paper-thin
<luisbg> StevenK, what floor, I have my tv pretty load
<StevenK> luisbg: Are you watching a movie/show that just played "Falling in love with you" ? And four
<liw> StevenK, it's not me, at least :)
<persia> luisbg: Edit your user preferences, and add the account.  That turned it on for me.
<StevenK> liw: :-)
<StevenK> liw: I know you're on seven, so you're safe. :-)
<Keybuk> with the screaming child from hell
<luisbg> StevenK, I'm watching mad tv
<luisbg> I'm in 8
<StevenK> Then it isn't you either. My original comment stands
<luisbg> persia, "A new email was sent to 'luisbg@ubuntu.com' with instructions on how to confirm that it belongs to you." ???
<persia> luisbg: Right.  You should now receive a message at your other LP address.
<luisbg> persia, sounded strange but it did work =)
<luisbg> persia, thanks a lot! =)
<persia> luisbg: No problem.  Took me 6 months to get mine :)
<luisbg> persia, LOL
 * Fujitsu had to get a different primary email address to get his.
<Fujitsu> As the algorithm to avoid loops is stupid.
<Hobbsee> damn.  just hit OK on this upgrade by accident, without looking
<Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Lost your X?
<Hobbsee> dunno yet
<Hobbsee> not sure what it updated
<StevenK> If it's the upgrade I did this morning, it was a compiz update
<Hobbsee> hardy
<StevenK> Ah
<luisbg> Hobbsee, oops
<Hobbsee> now, where's the log that tells me what just upgraded?
<Keybuk> /var/log/dpkg.log
<Mithrandir> oi, Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: ah, thanks.  looking under almost the right name, wrong place.
<Hobbsee> hiya Mithrandir!
 * Hobbsee hugs Mithrandir
 * Hobbsee really hates using the "enter" key by accident, when on a different desktop
<Keybuk> "Why dialogs are bad #1"
<Hobbsee> yeah wlel
<Keybuk> if mpt were here, he would tell you *all* about it
<StevenK> Why focus following mouse is good, number #3
<Hobbsee> oh it's done libx11-data
<Fujitsu> +1 StevenK
<Fujitsu> Hobbsee: That's all fine.
<Fujitsu> It's just xserver* that is likely to be fatal.
<StevenK> bryce_ is still around, he can be tickled for breaking X on hardy.
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: but as for why it hasnt upgraded the rest of the binaries in that package...
<Keybuk> breaking hardy is to be expected ;)
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: well, of course :)
<Keybuk> if you're running hardy now, you're crazy
 * Fujitsu decided to try to upgrade X this morning, and reverted half-way through.
<StevenK> Keybuk: Surely, encouraged? :-P
<Fujitsu> Keybuk: But all the people on ubuntuforums are running it!
<Fujitsu> It must be safe.
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: well, we knew that.  i ran gutsy at the same point.
<Fujitsu> Complaining that X is held back, and that something must be... 'jacked' in the repositories.
<Hobbsee> heh
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: it's  a problem that my brain is so used to being on development versions, that running the same commands on a stable system becomes frustrating - like, i keep requesting gutsy syncs, for eg.
<StevenK> I wouldn't consider running Hardy until a week or so after DIF
<Hobbsee> or i keep running apt-cache madison, or aptitude changelog, and it gives me back different data
<Fujitsu> StevenK: Wimp.
<StevenK> Meh
 * Fujitsu normally upgrades around <milestone> 2.
 * Hobbsee had to take advantage of the good bandwidth at sevilla.
<Mithrandir> did sevilla have good bandwidth?
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: i thought you knew i was crazy, anyway.  i'm crazy enough to do stuff with free software :P
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: compared to AU, definetly.
<Mithrandir> well, maybe compared to .au's string.
<Hobbsee> being able to pull at about 1mb/s was really nice.
<Hobbsee> where i usually get 150kbps, from a.u.c
<Fujitsu> Mithrandir: String!? We have but a single thread.
<StevenK> I wish it isn't Alpha. I prefer <name of group>
 * Fujitsu often gets around 1MB/s to au.a.u.c, which is sometimes up to date.
<Fujitsu> StevenK: Yeah.
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: yes, but au.u.u *sucks*
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: you should use the pacificnet mirror.
<Hobbsee> (unless your ISP is optus, of course)
<StevenK> Hobbsee: au.a.u.c, even
<Hobbsee> StevenK: yeah, that.  i thought i had too many u's.
<Fujitsu> It was within a few hours for a couple of months.
<StevenK> At least it isn't PlanetMirror
<Fujitsu> Hah.
<Hobbsee> i didnt find the out of date to be a problem - i found the problem to be md5sum mismatch
<Hobbsee> all the time
<Hobbsee> or at least, a great percentage of it
<shenki> why don't we change au.a.u.c to internode?
<shenki> (their mirror is open these days)
<Hobbsee> how good is it?
<shenki> very good
<Hobbsee> better than pacificnet?
<shenki> (i was biased, because i was on node. but im with a different isp now, and it's still great)
<shenki> hmm, i haven't used pacificnet
<Hobbsee> how often does it update?
<shenki> but either way, lets change it to something that doens't suck :)
<Hobbsee> oh, indeed.
<shenki> Hobbsee: nightly atleast
<Hobbsee> but, with not having that as the default mirror, it's faster for the few who do use it :)
<Hobbsee> like, pacificnet was still reasonably fast, around gutsy release
<shenki> they're good at responding to queries, i remeber back in the dapper dev cycle they stopped syncing but fixed within a few hours after i emailed them
 * Hobbsee nods
<shenki> who establisehd the current au. redirect?
<Hobbsee> no idea
<shenki> hmm.
<StevenK> I'm guessing the mirror admins
<shenki> Hobbsee: you going to osdc?
<StevenK> Or Launchpad itself, I'm not sure if it drives the mirror network now
<Hobbsee> shenki: wasnt planning to.  may well go to lca
<shenki> Hobbsee: ok. heh, 'sif you'd consider *not* going to lca
<Hobbsee> sure i would.
<Hobbsee> i didnt go last year, and that was in my state
<Hobbsee> i only went to the open day
<shenki> okay. but i met you on the sunday night, right? I assumed you were there the whole week
<StevenK> I thought the Open Day was a Wednesday or Thursday
<Hobbsee> shenki: you either met me at open day, or you're imaginging things.
<shenki> hmm. maybe.
<shenki> :)
<mpt> Hobbsee, what was the window you thought you were pressing Enter in, and what was the window that was actually focused?
<Hobbsee> mpt: i was dealing with thunderbird, and i pressed OK on what ended up being the popup window from update manager
<mpt> Which "popup window" in particular?
<mpt> A menu? An error alert? A progress window?
<Hobbsee> mpt: a "do you want to do the upgrade" window.
<Hobbsee> well, a "do you want to continue?" window, fortunately only doing a "safe" upgrade.
<mpt> ok
<mpt> so, up to three bugs there
<Hobbsee> mpt: sorry, what more info do you want?
<Hobbsee> the text?
<evand> Keybuk: http://irccrew.org/~cras/security/c-guide.html
<mpt> Hobbsee, no, I was just wondering what kind of window it was
<Hobbsee> mpt: hm.  now *why* cant i reproduce it nwo?
<mpt> Hobbsee, so is it possible for the focused window to be on a workspace that isn't visible?
<mpt> That seems like it would be asking for trouble
<Hobbsee> mpt: no, it shows on the visible workspace
<Hobbsee> it just hijacks focus, so when you're logically about ot hit enter on something else, you hit enter on it instead, then go "oh damn, what am i doing?"
<Hobbsee> not figuring out quickly enough that the focus has changed
<Hobbsee> focus follows mouse would probably help with this
<mpt> Focus follows mouse causes other problems
<mpt> So this confirmation alert not only took focus, it also switched workspaces without your consent?
<mpt> oh
<mpt> it shows on the visible workspace
<Mithrandir> some confirmations does switch workspaces and steal focus. Depending on WM
<mpt> So, down to two bugs
<mpt> (1) Dialogs and alerts should never take focus unless their parent window was already focused
<mpt> (2) Unfocused windows look quite similar to focused ones (the frame being the only major difference)
<Mithrandir> the latter depends on your settings, though
<Hobbsee> mpt: no - but konversation does that.
 * Hobbsee grumbles at it.
<mpt> Does which? (1)?
<Hobbsee> [16:09] <mpt> So this confirmation alert not only took focus, it also switched workspaces without your consent?
<Hobbsee> mpt: pretty much
<mpt> hmm
<mpt> I wonder how that's even possible
<mpt> I suppose it could pretend it doesn't have a parent window, and therefore appear on whatever workspace you're on, rather than on the same workspace as the parent
<mpt> but still, the WM shouldn't focus it by default unless you haven't touched an input device in the past ~5 seconds
<mpt> and the WM probably isn't that clever
<StevenK> Well, the WM *is* compiz. :-P
<Mithrandir> mpt: past behaviour is not a guarantee for future behaviour.  It'd be bloody annoying if it popped up and stole focus just because you took a 5s break
<mpt> Mithrandir, that's true
<mpt> though you can say the same thing about screensavers :-)
<Mithrandir> which is why gss takes 5s to lock your screen
<Mithrandir> so you can tell it "please, no"
<Hobbsee> mpt: in the case of konversation, which i'll admit is probably not supposed to work with comipz, when you select the alert, it'll switch you back to the original workspace.
<Hobbsee> mpt: but in the case of update manager, yse.
<mpt> Mithrandir, yes, I was just trying to think what would be the alert equivalent of g-s-s's fade effect
<Mithrandir> fade it in, don't steal focus until it's faded in, and don't steal focus if there has been a keypress while it's fading in?
<Mithrandir> so you end up with people who look at the keyboard not having their input sent into the dialogue, while people who see it coming can stop and wait.
<Hobbsee> every time that gss fades, i start to wonder if my computer is dying :P
<Hobbsee> well, my screen
<Mithrandir> heh
<mpt> hmm
<Mithrandir> it'd be better if it started doing the white bleed of death?
<mpt> I wonder if that would lead to people pressing Enter to dismiss an alert because they thought it had finished fading in when it actually hadn't
<Hobbsee> i think it's because i'm used to kubuntu, which doesnt do that fade :P
<Mithrandir> make it blink when it's done fading in, or something
<Mithrandir> and make it possible to switch to it, either by clicking or alt-tab-ing to it if you're impatient
<Keybuk> evand: http://swapped.cc/halloc/
<evand> kthx
<mpt> Or fade from 0% opacity to 50% over 5 seconds, and then jump to 100%
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: i still think it should do the BSOD.
<Mithrandir> mighr work, but won't be easy to see on a dimmed screen
<Hobbsee> (as in, slowly dim to that screensaver)
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: heh
<StevenK> Hobbsee: You can turn off the fade
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: well, it's KDE that's blue..
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: sure, but that doesnt fade.  and it's a purpley-blue.
<Keybuk> evand: compare with http://talloc.samba.org/
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: details. :-P
<StevenK> Hrm. g-s-s's dialog box is not giving me anything
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: :P
<tuxman88> Whats the best partition scheme for ubuntu?
<tuxman88> Im setting it up as a desktop
<tuxman88> 80gb drive
<Fujitsu> tuxman88: This isn't an appropriate channel.
<tuxman88> they wont answer me in ubuntu
<Fujitsu> We won't answer you here either. Not for support.
<Hobbsee> and that makes this an appropriate one?
<Hobbsee> tuxman88: use the defaults, and set a home.
<Hobbsee> dir
<tuxman88> so havign a seperate /usr isnt a good idea?
<Hobbsee> more just unnecessary
<tuxman88> thankyou, im still in ubuntu and still no answe
<tuxman88> sorry for busting in
<warp10> Hi all!
 * purpleposeidon bitches at uuids
<Hobbsee> ...yay
<Hobbsee> hiya warp10
<warp10> Hobbsee: yo!
<purpleposeidon> You may recall me as the guy who was bitching about uuid's a few weeks ago
<Hobbsee> was it conductive then?
<purpleposeidon> Probably not.
<Hobbsee> grr, x froze.
<persia> Hobbsee: All of X, or just nautilus.  I find `kill -1 <pid-of-nautilus>` to be helpful for most apparent freezes
<Hobbsee> persia: no, X.
<Hobbsee> persia: i was playing with annotate again - it has a tendancy to crash my machine, when clearing it
<persia> Ah.  special X branded crack.  That makes more sense.
<sladen> morning Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> hiya sladen!
<sladen> UDS is over.  Mao is over.  And the clocks went back two^W three hours ago.
<sladen> wonder if popey's plane went down in the hurricane
<popey> nope
<popey> it actually arrived back early
<Hobbsee> sladen: aww
<sladen> popey: that was a fast plane
<sladen> you only left the hotel 12hours ago
<popey> the trains worked out well
<popey> as i had checked in online it took no more than a couple of mins to bagdrop
<popey> right, snooze time
<Hobbsee> bryce: there's circular dependancies in your X, btw.
<Hobbsee> xserver-xorg depends on -input and -video, yet you cant install either of them without first configuring core - which requires xserver-xorg.  or at least, some versoin of them.
<Hobbsee> so, you're still stuffed if you remove -core, at all
<soc> hi
<soc> it looks like xserver-xorg is still missing to update the whole xorg ...
<soc> goes someone know details?
<persia> soc: Is this blocking your work?
<soc> s/goes/does
<soc> i'm testing nouveau atm ...
<soc> and looking for some patches which went into xorg
<soc> but nothing really importnat
<soc> don't mind to wait ..
<soc> was just interested ...
<persia> soc: Hrm.  Last I heard, it might be as much as a week before hardy xorg is all fixed.  The source is there, and if you compiled it locally you might be able to beat that timeframe.
<soc> ah ok
<soc> sounds ok
<calc> slangasek: there are no Contents files for hardy...
<persia> calc: The repos are churning wildly currently, with sync runs and all the merges.  Do we need them now?
<slangasek> calc: best to direct that comment to ubuntu-archive, anyway; I don't know what creates them
<Amaranth> I just noticed that too
<Amaranth> compiz still complains about x11-xcb even though we have libxcb-xlib0 and libx11-6 built against it so i tried using apt-file and whoops
<Amaranth> oh, that's a different package :P *facepalm*
<calc> oh i see maybe they are turned off due to the churn
<calc> i just wanted to note that it might be broken, but sounds like it is intentional
<johanbr> Does a bug where "which" reports an incorrect path qualify as a security vulnerability?
<pitti> siretart: hi
<pitti> siretart: I think I got libgpg-error unwedged, StevenK does libgcrypt, FYI
<StevenK> --libdir is a Good Thing. Not installing .la files Even Better Thing.
<pitti> yay killing .la files yay
<siretart> StevenK: yay! thanks!
<siretart> still catching up with email here
<warp10> Hi all!
<BigPick> o/
<tekteen> is this a place where I can ask what the command in-target does on the debian installer? Does it chroot to the new system?
<BigPick> You guys know that feeling when you think you've finally found that bug, that four-hour semicolon error, only to realize that wasn't even the problem in the first place...
<BigPick> Yeah...
<jdong> BigPick: try spending 2 hours applying a patch from a contributor with CRLF line endings where his editor re-indented all of the source files, only to find out in the end it implemented functionality that already existed because the user never RTFC before patching
<jdong> patch really needs a whitespace heuristic :D
<BigPick> jdong: Indeed.
<pwnguin> jdong: dos2unix and indent ftw
<jdong> pwnguin: indent doesn't turn C-style brace openings to Java style and vice-versa, does it?
<jdong> whatever editor he was using was really proud of its self-aware turing-complete indenter engine
<pwnguin> im not sure what you mean
<jdong> decided to reformat all the code to Java style braces where you do int foobar(){
<pwnguin> you should be using the same style in both cases :P
<jdong> i.e. brace openings on declaration line rather than newline
<pwnguin> opening brace on the same line is the One True Way
<jdong> pwnguin: pfft Java twerp :P
<pwnguin> psh
<pwnguin> i wrote code before java was invented
<BigPick> Hey, watch it! I'm a java twerp too. But whenever I write in C I newline my opening braces :P
<jdong> and his patch somehow was based off his reformatted version
<jdong> not the upstream svn version
<jdong> I still have no idea how he pulled that off
<jdong> should've just sent it back to him for reformatting
<BigPick> Usually, with a patch that messed up, just sending it back is preferabel.
<jdong> BigPick: meh there's days when I feel exceptionally courteous, and I usually get punished for it :)
<BigPick> Understood :)
<tepsipakki> finally home.. been awake for 33h and counting :)
<BigPick> Get some sleep. Welcome back :)
<tepsipakki> hmm, irssi shows that someone mentioned my nick here, but the backlog doesn't have it anymore
<tormod> tepsipakki: <BigPick> Get some sleep. Welcome back :)
<pochu> tepsipakki: where you away? If so, look in away.log
<pochu> tormod: he didn't said his name :)
<pochu> s/said/say/
<pwnguin> irclogs.ubuntu.com :P
<tepsipakki> pwnguin: ah, of course :)
<tepsipakki> thanks
<tepsipakki> tormod: I didn't use /away ;)
<tormod> pochu: good point - took me some time :)
<tepsipakki> pochu: that was for you.. I can't even sit straight, so maybe some sleep would be nice :P
<pwnguin> tepsipakki: theres a script floating around that ssh's into a screen+irssi session and tunnels highlights to zenity notifications
<tepsipakki> pwnguin: now that sounds interesting
<pwnguin> "irssi-notify"
<tepsipakki> since you can easily miss messages from the active window
<pwnguin> www.pthree.org/2007/03/21/irssi-gui-notify
<tepsipakki> pwnguin: thanks, I'll try that out
<BigPick> Wow, I had no idea everything was logged > . >
<BigPick> < . <
<LaserJock> BigPick: why not? it's a real drag to do work and then lose it :-)
<LaserJock> plus the transparency is helpful so people can see what's going on
<pwnguin> im actually surprised the UDS wasnt recorded
<LaserJock> I think there may have been some issues in the past with that, getting consent and all
<pwnguin> i mean, if you've got icecasts up for the event, you might as well assume SOMEONE's recording it, so the privacy issue is moot
<LaserJock> well, it is a bit different
<LaserJock> but yeah
<pwnguin> no, i think if you've made the step to broadcast it via icecast, you've already walked straight past consent
<LaserJock> well, hosting it/announcing it for all posterity is a bit different then a "live audience"
<pwnguin> im just saying from the perspective of a privacy nut, the difference is meaningless
<LaserJock> right, I have no idea if that was even an issue, but there is a difference
<ScottK> Particularly since this time we were half-way through the first day before being informed all the sessions were broadcast.
<ScottK> Just an honest error on someone's part, but still not ideal.
<johanbr> Are there at least transcripts anywhere?
<ScottK> johanbr: Each session had a spec associated with it.  Each spec should have at least notes in the spec wiki page or in a gobby session on gobby.ubuntu.com
<ScottK> Not transcripts, but at least notes
<Kopfgeldjaeger> n8
<jonmasters> sladen: ping
<jonmasters> sladen: you'
<jonmasters> sladen: you're not answering your phone, and you don't have voicemail.
#ubuntu-devel 2008-10-27
<TheMuso> crimsun: Any more feedback re the moving of the pulseaudio Xsession.d script to an earlier start point?
<crimsun> TheMuso: a couple more positive acks, but I'd like additional testing.  In a few minutes, I'm going to send an e-mail to u-d-d and u-u
<TheMuso> crimsun: ok
<TheMuso> at this stage it will probably have to ben an SRU.
<crimsun> TheMuso: sure
<superm1> crimsun, what about that g-s-r patch? you mentioned about pushing it to a PPA to test w/ pulseaudio some time last week
<crimsun> superm1: no, I was referring to an alsa-plugin patch.  I'll dig it up now.
<superm1> crimsun, ah
<crimsun> alsa-plugins*
<superm1> pitti, given https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-restricted-modules/+bug/263097/comments/23, perhaps it would be worthwhile to add a third type of quirk to handle this behavior at some point
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 263097 in jockey "wl vs. b43 are not properly configured" [Undecided,Fix released]
<pitti> Good morning
<StevenK> Morning pitti!
<pitti> hey StevenK!
 * StevenK waits for i386 to dip below 50 builds
<pitti> wow, it built faster than I thought
 * slangasek waves
<wgrant> Wow, it looks like it's going to not finish too late.
<pitti> superm1: oh, thanks for pointing out
<pitti> superm1: but didn't you say that loading b44 and wl wouldn't work at the same time?
<superm1> pitti, strictly because of the order it's loaded
<pitti> superm1: I just posted a followup question; but if that actually works, it would be much better, yes
<superm1> pitti, if you load wl before ssb and b44, you can apparently have it functional
<pitti> superm1: so for that we should put wl into /etc/modules then
<pitti> superm1: and could forget about all the blacklisting stuff?
<superm1> pitti, well unfortunately that wouldn't solve it
<superm1> pitti, ssb still loads from initramfs
<pitti> superm1: doesn't /etc/modules either?
<pitti> ah, maybe not
<superm1> pitti, wl isn't available in the initramfs since it's restricted anyhow
<superm1> I think the workaround that should work in this case would be in jockey when detecting b44 on the system, still blacklist ssb/b43/b44, but have a modprobe option to reload b44 after inserting wl
<superm1> that's similar to what i've seen in the various forum postings that i've seen talking about it at least
<pitti> ah, good idea
<lool> Morning
<StevenK> Ah ha. i386 has less builds than hppa
<lool> hppa had many give backs, it's laging a lot
<pitti> hey lool
<StevenK> lool: hppa has been at 20/21 builds for the majority of the day, i386 has been dealing with a ~ 400-odd backlog of langpacks
<StevenK> I think kohnen has choked on gstreamer0.10, too
<dholbach> good morning
<StevenK> Woot. i386 is all done
<persia> Does that mean it's time for the big shiny red button?
<pitti> lool: are you more happy with obm now?
<lool> pitti: I don't know for sure; I'd be more confortable if some security people could have a quick look
<lool> pitti: You qualify though :)
<lool> PHP isn't particularly well seen these days, and even if at some places the coding was ok or even nice, some things were quite surprizing
<pitti> dendrobates, zul: do you want to have obm in main for intrepid? is the server team committing to invest the necessary maintenance into it? (eww PHP webapp)
<slangasek> pitti: isn't it a bit late to be making such changes?
<pitti> slangasek: that, too
<dholbach> seb128: boohoooooooo, they rejected the epiphany-extensions upload I sponsored :'-(((
<seb128> dholbach: oh, why?
<dholbach> no idea
<slangasek> because it's past the deadline
<seb128> it's not on the CD
<slangasek> is it on the DVD?
<seb128> dunno
<seb128> so it's too late for any upload now?
<slangasek> any non-critical uploads, yes
<seb128> slangasek: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=121349&action=view to fix a frequent evolution crasher would be accepted?
<slangasek> how frequent?  I don't see a targeted bug for it in Ubuntu
<seb128> slangasek: bug #287136
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287136 in evolution "evolution crashed with SIGSEGV in e_flag_set()" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287136
<seb128> does anybody know how the xorg default keymap is set?
<slangasek> in /etc/default/console-setup
<seb128> slangasek: but is upstream xorg using that or do we have some trick calling setxkbmap using the values there?
<slangasek> oh
<slangasek> no idea
<seb128> slangasek: I'm trying to debug bug #275957
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 275957 in libgnomekbd "Unlock dialog never shows (gnome-screensaver-dialog crashed with SIGSEGV)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/275957
<seb128> slangasek: that happens 100% of the time on french installations
<slangasek> 275957 does?
<seb128> yes
<slangasek> ...gar
<lool> Indeed, I just got a crash, but then was able to type password and unlock ss
<seb128> slangasek: I've been discussing it with upstream on gnome bug #553915
<ubottu> Gnome bug 553915 in Config "gnome-keyboard-applet crashed with SIGSEGV in gkbd_indicator_reinit_ui()" [Critical,Unconfirmed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=553915
<seb128> he thinks the xorg config is really weird and I was asking how we are setting the keyboard config if it's not in xorg.conf
<seb128> lool: luck you, for most people the dialog is not showed
<slangasek> seb128: bug #287136> if that's a confirmed fix for the bug and you can upload in the next 30 minutes, yes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287136 in evolution "evolution crashed with SIGSEGV in e_flag_set()" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287136
<seb128> slangasek: ok doing that now then
<seb128> slangasek: are you sure e-e can't be accepted in the basis it's a GNOME 2.24.1 update and is not on the CD? ;-)
<seb128> weird
<seb128> calling "setxkbmap -model pc105 -layout fr -variant oss -option ''" workaround the crasher
<seb128> it should be the same config than the default one
<pitti> hey mvo, good morning
<pitti> mvo: any idea about bug 135752 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 135752 in language-selector "language support list not available if network is not available during install" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/135752
<slangasek> seb128: grmbl; accepted, since we're waiting for evolution anyway
<mvo> pitti: this should be fixed with the latest upload in the sense that a dialog will pop up and ask for a network update
<slangasek> (which doesn't make me happy, either)
<seb128> slangasek: thanks
<mvo> pitti: but let me test
<slangasek> mvo: you saw the latest follow-up, reopening that bug?
<pitti> slangasek: ok, I'll reject human-theme then and reupload as an SRU
<slangasek> pitti: I think that's better for the case of a theme change this late, yes
<mvo> slangasek: hrm, that is bad :(
<slangasek> yep
<slangasek> if it was good, we wouldn't need to talk about it on release week ;)
<asac> superm1: could you set your nm branch to "merged" so it disappears from the active branch list? thanks!
<seb128> slangasek: evolution uploaded now
<mvo> Mirv: are you there? could you give me the output of "ls -l /var/lib/apt/lists/" on a fresh networkless install please?
<mvo> slangasek: in my artificial test setup the dialog comes up jsut fne, I'm doing a fresh install now to figure out what is wrong
<slangasek> ok
<Mirv> mvo: not fresh since I did apt-get update already
<mvo> thanks Mirv
<seb128> cjwatson: hi, do you know how the xorg keymap is set exactly?
<cjwatson> seb128: /etc/default/console-setup and a hal thingy that reads from it
<seb128> cjwatson: whatever is setting the keymap is xorg upstream code or some ubuntu trick?
<cjwatson> seb128: this is different from upstream; I wouldn't expect them to be familiar with it
<seb128> cjwatson: trying to debug gnome bug #553915
<ubottu> Gnome bug 553915 in Config "gnome-keyboard-applet crashed with SIGSEGV in gkbd_indicator_reinit_ui()" [Critical,Unconfirmed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=553915
<cjwatson> seb	/usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/10osvendor/10-x11-keymap.fdi
<seb128> cjwatson: svu who is the upstream for xkeyboard-config, libgnomekbd would like to get details on how we set the keymap because he says there is something weird there
<cjwatson> and /usr/lib/hal/debian-setup-keyboard
<cjwatson> it's just a bunch of hal-set-property calls to make the console and X keymaps sync up
<seb128> looks like that will not be easy to debug
<seb128> using setxkbmap works correctly and fixes the crash
<cjwatson> you should be able to replicate the same thing by putting equivalent Xkb* settings in xorg.conf
<cjwatson> unless it's a bug in the hal glue in X itself I suppose
<seb128> well, passing the same options to setxkbmap doesn't lead to a broken config
<seb128> I'll try to edit xorg.conf directly
<seb128> the issue leads to bug ##275957
<seb128> which is gnome-screensaver-dialog crashing in some locales
<seb128> which means you can't unlock your screen
<seb128> anyway thanks for the info, will try to continue debugging based on that
<fta> seb128, is it too late for a bug fix ? (totem-plparser)
<Mirv> mvo: http://paste.ubuntu.com/63164/
<dendrobates> pitti: let me talk to zul.  The push for obm in main isn't coming from me.
<Mirv> I've now also a snapshot saved straight after install
<seb128> fta: likely, you can ask to slangasek but only bugs important for the CD images now should be fixed, I guess a totem-pl-parser fix is rather sru material now
<fta> seb128, ok, thanks
<seb128> fta: what is the fix about exactly?
<fta> seb128, bug 251669
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 251669 in totem-pl-parser "totem no longer able to play m3u playlists" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/251669
<seb128> fta: right, not an intrepid blocker issue
<fta> very low risk, but high annoyance if not fixed
<mvo> slangasek: fix is ready, will upload in 5min
<slangasek> mvo: ok, thank you
<slangasek> fta: --> SRU, sorry
<slangasek> pitti: I thought the justification for allowing openoffice.org-emailmerge into main was that python-uno was already on the CDs?
<slangasek> pitti: it wasn't on the CD for RC
<slangasek> pitti: can we trim that back out again and reclaim 100K?
<fta> slangasek, so nomination to intrepid-updates + sub ubuntu-sru ?
<slangasek> pitti: hmm, need more drastic cuts than that though, so let's skip that one for now
<slangasek> fta: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<pitti> slangasek: hm, I checked the manifest files and found it there, weird
<pitti> slangasek: but yes, if it causes any trouble, let's cut it
<slangasek> pitti: ah, it might have been there for desktop but not for alternate
<slangasek> that's fine, it's alternate that's oversized and we have langpacks to play with there
<pitti> slangasek: right, I just checked desktops; but weird
<pitti> slangasek: let's hope that the new langpacks don't grow the next desktops...
<slangasek> we can hope that it really was just KDE stuff missing
<pitti> slangasek: alternates> want me to look for a package which lzma's well? or just cut langpacks?
<mvo> Mirv: when you select finish as default language, are there any language packs/language-support packages installed (I guess not because they are not on the CD)?
<slangasek> pitti: just cut langpacks; it's late to be rebuilding packages
<mvo_> Mirv: hm, did my last msg made it to you before I disconnected?
<pitti> mvo_: yes
<pitti> mvo_: no answer from Mirv yet
<pitti> hey robbiew
<robbiew> howdy
<pitti> slangasek: hm, you did zh->ja for i386, but didn't cut amd64; I'll drop -de from amd64, ok?
<slangasek> pitti: already done && committing
<pitti> ah, good
<directhex> hm, intrepid's wallpaper is less neat than the vector heron for hardy
<directhex> oh, wait, the eta wallpaper sucked. running a dist-upgrade, it suddenly looks neato
<cjwatson> seb128: does bug 288494 need a hardy task, while we remember?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 288494 in totem "the youtube code needs to be updated" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/288494
<seb128> cjwatson: right, I added an hardy task now
<cjwatson> thanks
<pitti> sistpoty|work: hey
<geser> Hi sistpoty|work
<pitti> sistpoty|work: I threw away your u-d-a@ email, since it is not relevant any more, FYI; if you send something to u-d-a@, please ping a moderator immediately
<pitti> mvo: I figure we can bin bug 241431 now?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 241431 in update-manager "edgy to feisty upgrades fail due to use of old-releases" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/241431
<mvo> pitti: I think so :)
<pitti> mvo: sorry, seems you are the target of all my woes today ... u-n complains about package information being 10 days old; howver, I have the daily cronjob, and did an explicit update 10 minutes ago; want a bug report for that? or known?
<pitti> mvo: 241431> yep, closed
<mvo> pitti: do you have a entry in your sources.list that causes it to issue a warning or a error?
<mvo> pitti: it only updates if the update is complettely successful
 * pitti does an apt-get update by hand
<mvo> pitti: (there is a bug about this open that it should print both the last successful one and the last not-fully successful one
<mvo> )
<sistpoty|work> hi pitti and geser
<sistpoty|work> pitti: ah, k... thanks... didn't know you were a moderator as well
<pitti> sistpoty|work: a bunch of people are; cjwatson, mdz, me, slangasek, probably more
<sistpoty|work> pitti: good to know, thanks... back then I only pinged the first two
<pitti> sistpoty|work: ah, so you did? ok; wasn't sure whether you were aware of moderation at all
<Mirv> mvo: hi. only English langpacks, no else.
<Mirv> (and English language-support-en)
<jibel> Hi all, has anyone bug 289091 on it's radar ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289091 in ca-certificates-java "package ca-certificates-java 20080712ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289091
<jibel> doko: You're around ?
<cjwatson> jibel: you aren't the first to raise it
<jibel> s/it's/his/
<cjwatson> it's on the release team's radar
<jibel> cjwatson: ok, just worrying because dups are increasing quickly.
<slangasek> jibel: under what circumstances did you encounter this bug?
<cjwatson> liw: what happened to moving system-cleaner to system->administration?
<cjwatson> liw: does this just need sponsorship?
<jibel> slangasek: referring to duplicates, most of them occurs when installing ca-certificates-java during a dist-upgrade.
<slangasek> jibel: a dist-upgrade from what?  A previous version within intrepid?
<jibel> slangasek: sorry, hardy to intrepid
<slangasek> ok
 * Hobbsee notes those files exist in the hardy version of ca-certificates (whcih is a dep), but not the intrepid version
<liw> cjwatson, it's part of a set of changes I'll want to include in intrepid, the others being the name change and translations; I'm reviewing all the new bugs that came during the weekend to see if there's anything else, and then I'll prepare a package and ask for review+sponsorship
<cjwatson> liw: if you want to include it in intrepid, it needs to be RIGHT NOW
<cjwatson> make a fuss if you need something included
<liw> cjwatson, ack
<cjwatson> liw: what can I do to make this go faster?
<liw> cjwatson, give me 15 minutes?
<cjwatson> ok
 * Hobbsee offers cjwatson a lighter
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: ?
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: setting people on fire can make them go faster?
<cjwatson> oh :)
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: no, i know you don't smoke :)
<mvo> Mirv: thanks, that will be jaunty material, but should be fixed early IMO - please nag me about it
<pitti> mvo: oh, as for your question, apt-get update doesn't complain about anything; I have some PPAs, though
<mvo> pitti: could you give me the output of "ls -l /var/lib/apt/periodic" please ?
<pitti> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 2008-10-26 09:58 update-stamp
<pitti> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 2008-10-17 08:40 update-success-stamp
<mvo> pitti: and the output (full) of "sudo apt-get update -o Debug::acquire::http=true" please?
<pitti> mvo: is anyone using ubuntu-vm-builder in hardy-proposed? there's a plethora of pending fixes in the current SRU
<pitti> mvo: coming
<mvo> pitti: not sure, the trouble iwht it was that one of the previous versions had a regression, but I fixed that
<C0p3rn1c> ï»¿would it be possible to develop a open driver standard that all operating system could use and incorperate into there OS?
<pitti> mvo: http://pastebin.com/f3a1c6b0
<cjwatson> C0p3rn1c: we're very close to release and dealing with urgent issues here. I'm afraid this is not the place for bluesky discussions
<pitti> C0p3rn1c: not all OSes, but we are working on establishing one for the Linux world
<C0p3rn1c> pitti, nice! but most drivers are available on windows and the EU could force microsoft to join this standard
<C0p3rn1c> hypothetically speaking
<wgrant> I don't think 4 days before the release is the time for hypothesising about such things.
<C0p3rn1c> ï»¿imho this is the only reason that linux in general hasnt really breaked though to the main public
<Hobbsee> and still, completely the wrong place and time for this discussion.
<C0p3rn1c> k sorry to disturb you
<pitti> seb128: argh, bug 204770 was still not applied to intrepid :(
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 204770 in tracker "[hardy] gdmsetup cause intensive disk activity and take a very long time to open" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204770
<danbh_intrepid> C0p3rn1c: join #ubuntu-offtopic, and Ill try to dredge up a link
<seb128> pitti: ups
<mvo> pitti: could you please check if you have a file "/etc/apt/apt.conf.d/20packagekit" ? I think that kills it
<mvo> pitti: it == the update-stamp
<pitti> mvo: yes, I have that
<slangasek> liw: how's system-cleaner coming?
<mvo> pitti: ok, if you remove that, it should work again, I check now for a fix
<pitti> mvo: if I run that command from a shell, it succeeds
<liw> slangasek, running into packaging problems, but should be done momentarily
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> mvo: right, if I move it away, update-success-stamp is current
<pitti> mvo: rock, thanks
<liw> cdbs isn't running my makefile by default in build; how can I make it happen?
<StevenK> Are you including makefile.mk?
<liw> no
<StevenK> Then that's probably why it isn't. :-)
<liw> debian/rules:5: /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/makefile.mk: No such file or directory
<liw> oh, class
<StevenK> It's a class
<StevenK> liw: :-)
<pitti> ogra: is bug 199675 fixed in intrepid? (was a hardy SRU)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 199675 in ltsp "configure-x.sh generates broken xorg.conf files from lts.conf" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/199675
<ogra> pitti, well, throught not using an xorg.conf by default anymore, but parts of the breakage are usolvable by design in the script ... some of these parts are not yet replaced completely in new Xorg so in some circumstances you still have to use the script and have to deal with the issues
<pitti> ogra: but is the fix which got applied in hardy-proposed applied to intrepid, too?
<liw> bzr: ERROR: Pack 'ed385405e56c3ed9703f02a0f2638f20' already exists in <bzrlib.repofmt.pack_repo.RepositoryPackCollection object at 0x324ce90> -- hrmphgh
<ogra> pitti, apart from the xkb options (which are used via a different way anyway now by using xsetxkbmap in the login manager after X is up), yes
<pitti> ogra: so, so it can be closed in intrepid, too? (or if there is still an issue, the hardy task be reopened as well)
<ogra> pitti, it should be closed and if only to make jwz file separate bugs :P
<pitti> ogra: ok, please do that then :)  thanks for the update
 * ogra sets it to wontfix in intrepid
<slangasek> liw: is that bzr error blocking your upload?
<liw> slangasek, no, just pushing it
<liw> ok, it's on my PPA, now I need a sponsor and a release team acceptance
<slangasek> can you give me a full url for grabbing it?
<liw> slangasek, cjwatson: ping -- 1.10.4-0ubuntu1 on https://launchpad.net/~liw/+archive (https://launchpad.net/%7Eliw/+archive/+files/system-cleaner_1.10.4-0ubuntu1.dsc)
<liw> that was a very long fifteen minutes :(
<slangasek> yoink
 * directhex claps
<directhex> intel wifi link 5100 support in intrepid?
<directhex> i thought those drivers only existed about 3 weeks ago in a private git tree
<slangasek> liw: what's this line?  Not mentioed anywhere in the changelog, that I can tell: +       self.apt_cache._depcache.ReadPinFile("/var/lib/synaptic/preferences")
<liw> slangasek, oh. that reads in Synaptics "Lock package" settings, in an effort to have cruft-remover not remove locked packages; it doesn't seem to have any effect either way, though; probably should not have been included in trunk yet
 * liw goes review the entire commit log since the previous release
 * wgrant curses people confusing package managers with touchpad manufacturers.
<liw> s/cs/c's/
 * liw notices himself typing Internetese, where apostrophes are optional
<wgrant> Ah.
<slangasek> liw: have you tested what happens if /var/lib/synaptic/preferences doesn't exist?
<liw> slangasek, I think I did (=> nothing happens), but let me make sure
<liw> slangasek, works fine
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> sponsoring
<liw> slangasek, whew
<slangasek> liw: uploaded; now, do you want me to tell you about the bug I think I found that I didn't stop to let you fix, or would you prefer to not know? ;)
<liw> slangasek, do tell
<slangasek> liw: no upgrade handling to migrate /var/lib/system-cleaner to /var/lib/cruft-remover
<liw> slangasek, oh, you're right. should I fix that for the release? the minimal change would be to move the file in question in postinst, I guess
<slangasek> not for release
<slangasek> I think it should be cleaned up down the line; at this point it might as well be an rm -rf /var/lib/system-cleaner on upgrade, once this version hits people's systems
<liw> slangasek, ok, I'll file a bug so I don't forget
<slangasek> (example of why not to change names around at the last minute, though...)
<liw> slangasek, yeah
<abogani> superm1: Are you around? May i disturb you for a minute about bug 286961?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286961 in fglrx-installer "fglrx not working on rt kernel" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286961
<cjwatson> top tip: turns out that if you try to zero out the boot sector by zeroing the first 512 bytes of a disk, it zeroes the partition table too. who'd'a thunk it.
 * cjwatson hits self
<liw> cjwatson, heh, to zero out the partition table is the usual reason why I do that
<cjwatson> in this case it was because there was an old boot sector interfering with usb-creator
<cjwatson> (I speculate)
<mok0> cjwatson: what tool did you use? dd? Just curious
<cjwatson> yes
<mok0> uh-uh
<cjwatson> (I don't need help, I was just being an idiot)
 * Hobbsee hands cjwatson a large cup of coffee
<Hobbsee> or should that be beer?
<liw> is there another non-interactive command line tool for zeroing out the partition table (and just that)?
<mok0> cjwatson: did you save a copy of the 512 bytes?
<ogra> Hobbsee, to early for beer yet :)
<cjwatson> mok0: no. it's not hard to just rerun usb-creator
<Hobbsee> ogra: but it's gone lunchtime!
<ScottK> ogra: It's always after 5PM somewhere.
<ogra> Hobbsee, true, but we need cjwatson sober in that pre-release wrangling ;)
<Hobbsee> ogra: that depends.  Does he make better decisions when sober?
<Hobbsee> ;)
<cjwatson> history suggests yes
<cjwatson> for which I am rather grateful
<mok0> cjwatson: usb-creator?
<Hobbsee> hmm, OK, better be the coffee, then.
<cjwatson> mok0: apt-cache show usb-creator
<cjwatson> i.e. the tool I am currently testing
<mok0> cjwatson: hmm, not in hardy
<cjwatson> mok0: indeed
<cjwatson> that's sort of why I'm testing it
 * mok0 is chicken not to update production workstation
<ScottK> mok0: If it's Kubuntu then you're not chicken.  I recommend working with the live CD to see if KDE4 has what you need (I find it does, but some won't).
<directhex> my boss now has a fresh intrepid RC on his new laptop
<mok0> ScottK: I've been running kde4 for some time, now. I like it a lot
<directhex> it worked better than hardy did
<abogani> superm1: The fourth comment is sufficient to put the fix for 286961 into SRU queue?
<ScottK> mok0: Great.  I just warn people because there are still some things that KDE3 can do that KDE4 doesn't.  I like it a lot too.
<mok0> ScottK: Is the intrepid kde4 version newer than the ppa version?
<ScottK> mok0: They are both 4.1.2, but there are differences in the packaging.  I've never run the Hardy KDE4, so I can't tell you what.
<ScottK> mok0: We could do with PPA -> Intrepid upgrade testing if you want to join us in #kubuntu-devel.
<mok0> ScottK: Oh? I thought the ppa was a "preview" of the intrepid packages
<Plagman> hi there
<Plagman> do you guys know how to get the exact CFLAGS that were used to compile the repo binaries from the source packages?
<Plagman> I got the source package, now I guess there's some kind of script to build it exactly as it was built for the repositories?
<directhex> Plagman, there are no global cflags. anything not explicitly set in the debian/rules of a given package is just gcc default
<Plagman> cool; debian/rules is what I was looking for
<Plagman> thanks, directhex
<directhex> debian/rules is the makefile used for package building
<Plagman> alright
<Plagman> thanks a lot
<NCommander> hey directhex
<directhex> mornin' NCommander
<directhex> well. afternoon
<directhex> close enough
<superm1> abogani, have you gotten verification that actually will work (other than just compile)?
<abogani> superm1: No
<superm1> abogani, can you post the results of that debdiff to a ppa and ask the reporter to test it?
<abogani> superm1: Ok
<superm1> abogani, i'd prefer that we know it will be working
<superm1> thanks
<abogani> superm1: I understand. Thanks to you, Mario.
<Plagman> I need a word with whoever is maintaining the X server package
<Mirv> liw: jipii, now it works: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/system-cleaner/+imports
<liw> Mirv, cool
<Mirv> liw: it means that full translations can eventually be supplied via updated language packs
<liw> Mirv, very cool
<superm1> Plagman, you'd be best off joining #ubuntu-x and posing your question there.  they might be afk right now, but idle in there and they will see it eventually
<Plagman> alright, thanks
<slangasek> superm1: mythbuntu alternate candidates for final are posted
<superm1> slangasek, okay great thx
<superm1> pitti, re that comment i made earlier, here's the exact workaround that has been posted a few times for when b44 is in the mix: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=6042421&postcount=13
<heno> *** alternate and some desktop candidate images (for 8.10 final) are up on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ Please help test them - join us in #ubuntu-testing to coordinate ***
<rtg> superm1: no joy with 'alsamixer -c0'. Though it shows the discrete controls, adjusting them has no effect on audio output.
<Keybuk> I finally fix xchat-gnome's most annoying misfeature (that the notification icon goes away when you focus, even if you don't read the message) and I can't test because the network is down :o(
<Keybuk> asac: why does NM always pick exactly the wrong network in Millbank
<Keybuk> does it rste by signal strength, or just pick alphabetically?
<Company> so who here is at fault for ubuntu getting slower?
<broonie> It's certainly not alphabetic from the looks of it.
<ogra> Company, i heard its all swfdec's fault
<Company> ogra: ha, i made sure it's none of my software
<Company> ogra: apart from the gtk benchmarks, the radiobuttonthing might have been...
<ogra> Company, truely i think its the kernel and its an upstream thing ... i'm pretty sure they'll find the same comparing FC7 with FC10
<Company> ogra: yeah, i'm not blaming you guys - i just thought you'd have an idea who we should kick
 * Company only kicks cairo people all the time
<ogra> i heard something about linus' scheduler implemntation decisions a while ago that were known to make it a bit slower but had more stable code or some such
<ogra> but i might be wrong
<NCommander> ogra, I remember hearing that too
<asac> Keybuk: i think the heuristic is a bit more advanced, but in general it should to be a mix of signal strength and some hash order
<Riddell> pitti: jockey works so well on today's Kubuntu CDs is manages to download and install the broadcom driver without even an internet connection
<davmor2> Riddell: that's cause it is already there just needs switching on ;)
<ogra> davmor2, it doesnt need the firmware anymore ?
<davmor2> ogra: It's worked for me each time with the new broadcom driver in I'm guessing restricted
<mvo> Riddell: that sounds like pure magic :)
<davmor2> what package do you need to install in order to get dbgsym's working it says yelp-dbgsym but the package doesn't seem to be in the repo's
<mvo> davmor2: there is "deb http://ddebs.ubuntu.com/ intrepid main" for this
<davmor2> mvo: thanks
<superm1> Riddell, yeah its a bit of a misnomer that it's "downloading and installing".  if your hardware supports only wl, it's already activated (I filed a bug on that), if it supports wl and b43, it will blacklist b43 and then claim wl is activated
<blackbird> hello everybody
<blackbird> guess i'm the bug whore. found another one ;)
<blackbird> guess the problems with the iwl3945 driver are known here, but apparently they got a lot worse with intrepid
<pitti> Riddell: broadcom wl? yes, that's expected :)
<blackbird> friend of mine is kicked out of vpn (cisco concentrator) because of bad performance and the connection goes down to less than 500kb
<seb128> doko: do you know if there is some uptodate subversion backports for hardy somewhere?
<doko> seb128: there must be ;) I got bug reports about python-setuptools not supporting 1.5 in hardy
<doko> but I didn't do one
<seb128> doko: and you don't know where, ie which ppa for example?
<NCommander> seb128, there is
<NCommander> 1.5.1 was backported to hardy
<doko> something like "show me all duplicate packaged subversion packages in the PPAs" would be nice
<seb128> NCommander: right, that's not uptodate though
<NCommander> seb128, yes it is. 1.5.1~hardy2 and 1.5.1 I think
<seb128> ok, not interested
<seb128> there is a GNOME sysadmin who is using that and is trying to update to the current version based on this backport
<seb128> would have been easier to point him to a current version if there was one somewhere rather than explain him how to do packaging
<Keybuk> bryce: bug #285323
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 285323 in gnome-power-manager "Losing keyboard and mouse control when changing screen brightness with fn + arrow under intrepid" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/285323
<Keybuk> why would the apparent patch that broke it cause keyboard and mouse to stop working?
<Keybuk> that patch looks to me like it just makes g-p-m ignore key presses without keycodes
<bryce> hmm
<Keybuk> is it returning something that makes X a doofus?
<bryce> Keybuk: well, what I'm wondering is if something is causing the keyboard to be stolen away from X
<Keybuk> that sounds plausible
<bryce> I know on some hardware the hotkeys are provided via a separate device from the regular keyboard; in other cases they're combined; in some there is an overlap
<Keybuk> could g-p-m not processing the key be ticking another bug where something else grabs it?
<bryce> possibly yeah
<Keybuk> how would someone debug that?
<bryce> well, looking at 'xinput list' would show what devices are present and might indicate how the hotkeys are mapped in
<Keybuk> could you sugget that on the bug?
<jdong> note to self: ext4dev doesn't boot. shame on me.
<ogra> bryce, if thats how xinput list is how its supposed to be, mine is broken ... for me that lists all devices that were ever plugged in, it doesnt clear them on removal here
<ScottK> doko: Speaking of Pyhon 3.0, is there going to be a Python3.0 python-central anytime soon?
<bryce> Keybuk: sure, although I'd really like to see someone more skilled in gnome-power-manager look into this
<doko> ScottK: yes, prepared, although I hope it won't be necessary mid-term
<Keybuk> tedg: ? :P
<tedg> Keybuk: Could it be compiz trying to show the brightness up down graphic thingy?
<ScottK> doko: So if I want to do porting work to support upstream on Python3.0 transition, do you recommend using disutils installs and not Debian packages for now?
<Keybuk> tedg: dunno, have you read through the bug?
<doko> ScottK: we'll have 2.6 and 3.0 packages in some PPA for intrepid, in about two weeks
<ScottK> doko: Great.  A new Python Interest Group just started up in my area and I'm hoping to get some porting work going there.  A signficant fraction of the people at the first meeting use Ubuntu.
<tedg> Keybuk: Haddn't gotten to the end.  Basically working keysym code seems to have broken it?  Otherwise the keysymbols wouldn't work.
<Keybuk> it's odd to me that it breaks all keyboard and mouse after
<tedg> I'm betting that it was ignoring those keys before, and responding to them is the problem.
<Keybuk> ?
<bryce> ogra: probably you should file a bug upstream about that.  I'd guess it's a hal issue rather than X since xinput unplugs properly for me.
<ogra> bryce, well, i only see it with my wireless kbd, it doesnt go away even if i remove teh dongle, probably related to that specific hw
<bryce> probably
<tedg> Keybuk: I commented on the bug, but basically that by removing the code GPM doesn't see the keypresses.  Not that it fixes it, it just makes no more code execute.
<bryce> ogra: in that case, could also be a kernel issue or something.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> not critical anyway
<ogra> i was just noticing that i still see the wireless kbd when i tried your command above and i unplugged the dongle yesterday already
<superm1> Keybuk, isn't that the same problem that keyrelease events aren't showing up when pressing FN+some key
<superm1> and hence causing GPM to hang on focus?
<bryce> ogra: ah, gotcha.  xinput's codebase is pretty minimal, and really just prints stuff reported by deeper layers
<bryce> maybe wireless devices get "held onto" longer since by nature they're not as definitively connected.  but you'd think if the dongle was removed, it'd clear it out.
<ogra> yeah
<infinito> is still possible to fix this before release? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez-gnome/+bug/280679
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 280679 in bluez-gnome "bluetooth-applet shows tray icon with "never display icon" enabled" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ogra> pitti, you give proper upstream docs for CK and PK ... where is the one for SecurityHole ? :P
<calc> jcastro: ping
<calc> shouldn't the wiki still list dapper and gutsy on the (Current + Stable) section?
<ogra> infinito, its not like that here on any of my systems ...
<superm1> infinito, not in time for release, but it can be done shortly after as an SRU
<superm1> infinito, in the meanwhile, can you submit it upstream?
<infinito> superm1: sure
<ogra> superm1, ?? all my installs have "display when adapter is present" ...
<jcastro> calc: pong
<superm1> ogra, that option is available, but from reboot to reboot i believe it doesn't stick because of that bug
<calc> jcastro: the wiki changed and seems to be missing some important data
<jcastro> calc: whereat?
<calc> jcastro: not sure if it was intentional or if someone 'defaced' it ;-)
<ogra> superm1, weird, its always been like that for me
<calc> jcastro: the main page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/
<jcastro> calc: ! Let me find out
<calc> jcastro: it only lists Hardy and Intrepid now, not the other two supported dists
<calc> jcastro: not sure if the rest of the changes are ok or not, but it looks quite a bit different from what i remember
<jcastro> calc: yes it is
<jcastro> let me ask around
<calc> "With the launch of the "release candidate", I have now replaced the home page with the version developed under Home/PageDiscussion"
<calc> so it looks like it was discussed but maybe not well enough ;-)
<calc> the main change happened on Oct 25 (change #187)
<jcastro> calc: yeah it doesn't look very finished at all
<calc> i can't seem to pull up the discussion page about it either
<calc> though i might be doing something wrong
<calc> i assumed it would be: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home/PageDiscussion due to how the change described it
<pitti> ogra: that's s3kr1t
<ogra> haha
<calc> ah its there its just that is the exact same page copied to the main page (or looks like it)
<jcastro> yeah
<bdmurray> pitti: bug 280931 seems to be a duplicate of bug 283316 but interestingly it has a workaround
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 280931 in udev "Tray retracts automatically after eject with 2.6.27-6 and -7 (dup-of: 283316)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/280931
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 283316 in linux "opening /dev/scdN causes tray to be closed" [Unknown,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/283316
<jcastro> calc: I'm all for cleanup but this seems a bit too unfinished to roll out to the live page, try pinging mdke or something.
<jcastro> calc: I can follow up later once I get some openweek scheduling out of the way
<calc> ok
<infinito> superm1: is fixed upstream http://git.kernel.org/?p=bluetooth/bluez-gnome.git;a=commitdiff;h=4d56f10dc2a065d60724ccce8496d173fa0dc85a
<calc> mdke: ping ^
<apw> superm1: hey ... i hear you are intrested in experience of intrepid on dell studio 15's
<superm1> infinito, okay great thx
<jcastro> calc: while I have your attention: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<superm1> apw, yeah kirkland just mentioned you were having a single issue with it.  could you poke me later in the week though?
<superm1> apw, say like thur or fri
<calc> jcastro: i'll be in Beijing all next week
<apw> yeah sure ..
<jcastro> calc: ah right.
<superm1> apw, okay thanks.  sorry just busy week :)
<calc> i'll be back Nov 11 :)
<calc> er which is a US holiday
<calc> so Nov 12 :)
<apw> superm1: i wonder why that is :)
<pitti> tseliot: still remember http://launchpadlibrarian.net/18215648/jockey-gtk.png ? I can reproduce it \o/
 * directhex adds pitti to a gtk liststore a few times
<pitti|pitti|pitt> hello|hello|hello :)
<mvo> that looks like a gtktreeview setup is run multiple times :)
<liw> is there a reason why #268803 isn't marked "Confirmed"?
<doko> hmm, do we set LC_ALL by default during the install somewhere?
<liw> doko, one would hope not
<doko> liw: see #ubuntu-bugs
<tseliot> pitti: how?
<pitti> tseliot: I updated bug 278071
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 278071 in jockey "jockey-gtk weird installed driver display" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/278071
<pitti> tseliot: clicking on the tray icon multiple times while the app is open
<tseliot> aah
<tseliot> pitti: does it affect the kde version too?
<mvo> pitti: if you could have a look at the srus for bug #289855 and bug #255545 that would be much appreciated
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289855 in update-notifier "incorrect quoting makes intrepid CD detection fail" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289855
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255545 in apt "requires uncompressed Packages files on CDs" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255545
<pitti> mvo: retroactively done 2 hours ago
 * mvo hugs pitti
 * mvo hands pitti the rockstar award
 * pitti hugs mvo and handles him the bug squash gold star
<tseliot> pitti pitti pitti: I'll see if I can reproduce it (and fix it) with the kde version here :-P
<pitti> tseliot: "install three drivers in parallel"
<tseliot> pitti: too bad apt won't allow us to do it. Damn lock...
<tseliot> ;)
<pitti> bdmurray: thanks for digging out, I'll have a look
<superm1> ah pitti|pitti|pitti, i've seen that too, but could never reproduce it either, so I didn't file a bug : )
<superm1> tedg, bryce, bug 285323 sounds like possibly effects of bug 261721
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 285323 in gnome-power-manager "Losing keyboard and mouse control when changing screen brightness with fn + arrow under intrepid" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/285323
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 261721 in linux "X never sees brightness key release events" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/261721
<pitti> tseliot: just gotta love crashes like this: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/18645982/Traceback.txt
<bryce> superm1: interesting, so is 285323 a dupe of 261721?
<tseliot> pitti: LOL -> Failed to execute program /usr/lib/dbus-1.0/dbus-daemon-launch-helper: Success
<superm1> bryce, not necessarily, I think you need to look at a 2.6.24 kernel with the newer gpm pieces to verify gpm isn't at fault too
<bryce> superm1: ok added a comment to that effect
 * lool waves 'night
<calc> did pdf printing get dropped with intrepid?
<calc> er the pdf printer, print to pdf option is what i am talking about
<sbeattie> calc: there should be a print-to-file option now that replaces the pdf target
<calc> sbeattie: oh just in gnome apps, ok
 * calc reinstalled cups-pdf
<superm1> bryce, what other pieces sit in the chain for those key press and release events though?  oddly enough adding 2.6.24-21-generic i'm not getting key releases, but I do off of a hardy disk
<superm1> this is going as far back as running showkey in a console
<bryce> superm1: hmm, I mapped that out at one point, let me check my notes
<bryce> Traditionally - in the kernel, it maps raw scancodes to internal keycodes.  hotkey-setup does a mapping (now replaced by HAL IIUC).  At that point you can see what X is seeing via xev
<superm1> bryce, another platform close to the one that I sent you (done by the same ODM and BIOS teams) exhibits the problem along with a whole slew of others, perhaps can you see if you reproduce it there too?
<bryce> from there, there's an xmodmap mapping
<superm1> so this is all happening before you even get to X though
<bryce> yeah
<superm1> if you boot into "recovery mode" and choose root, showkey shows it there
<bryce> which hardware is this again?
<bryce> ok, I'm able to reproduce it
<bryce> hmm, showkey doesn't show any output for the brightness keys
<bryce> superm1: is that what you're referring to?  It does set the brightness correctly, and doesn't seem to steal the keyboard
<superm1> bryce, oh you need to manually setkeycode in recovery mode
<superm1> bryce, since hal hasn't done that for you
<bryce> ah, what's the command for that?
<superm1> bryce, setkeycodes e006 NUMBER
<bryce> hmm, no go
<kirkland> slangasek: so are your Europish hours over yet today?
<slangasek> kirkland: yes, I'm now in "Europish workaholic afterhours"
<kirkland> slangasek: okay, here's a heads up....
<superm1> bryce, not seeing the problem with no keyrelease or not seeing anything?
<superm1> e006 only maps to brightness up
<kirkland> slangasek: we're testing a fix for https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/open-iscsi/+bug/289470 that would require an upload of open-iscsi
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 289470 in open-iscsi "open-iscsi user-space does not match kernel module version" [Critical,In progress]
<superm1> bryce, e005 is for brightness down
<kirkland> slangasek: soren is done for the day, and asked me to find another core-dev and release team member to sponsor
<kirkland> slangasek: mathiaz is our server man in London, but also done for the day
<slangasek> kirkland: first question is, if this breaks iscsi, why wasn't this detected sooner than yesterday?
<kirkland> slangasek: if you can't do it, can you point me to someone else
<bryce> superm1: maybe I'm picking NUMBER incorrectly; what should I be using there?
<superm1> bryce, i just put 200 or so
<superm1> bryce, its just a keycode you are assigning to it
<superm1> you can always just start hal instead and let it do it for you (unless of course hal is at fault!)
<bryce> aha (I'd picked 255)
<bryce> superm1: ok, with that set, brightness is no longer changing.  the keyboard seems to still be functioning fine.  What am I looking for here?
<superm1> bryce, so now run showkey
<slangasek> kirkland: can I do the upload - yes.  Am I willing to include this as a last-minute change a full day after the drop-deadline - less certain
<superm1> and you'll see that keypress events show up
<superm1> but keyrelease dont
<bryce> superm1: ahhh, yes
<kirkland> slangasek: understood.
<slangasek> kirkland: that debdiff really looks unhappy with all of its packaging changes.  is there something we can cherry-pick here, or is that not known?
<kirkland> slangasek: i have not uploaded my debdiff
<slangasek> sorry, s/debdiff/diffstat/
<slangasek> let's see your debdiff then :)
<kirkland> slangasek: i have spent the last 8 hours on this basically.  the current debian package is a mess
<kirkland> slangasek: what i did was rebase on upstream (above debian)
<kirkland> slangasek: and applied our ubuntu changes to that
<kirkland> slangasek: plus 2 lines of build fixes
<kirkland> http://people.ubuntu.com/~kirkland/open-iscsi/
<kirkland> slangasek: as i said, EtienneG is testing it for regression, and that it fixes that kernel/userspace alignment issue
<slangasek> how confident are we that we have any meaningful coverage of regression testing, when this bug went unnoticed as it did in the first place?
<bryce> superm1: interesting, so it sounds like from one of the bug commenters that the fix for 280646 exposes this bug
<superm1> bug 280646
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 280646 in gnome-power-manager "ACPI brightness events no longer work on ThinkPad T61" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/280646
<bryce> superm1: which indicates g-p-m is not being smart about handling lack-of-key-release situations or something?
<superm1> bryce, well this lack of keyrelease doesn't only affect brightness though
<superm1> eject and battery status should be effected too
<kirkland> slangasek: EtienneG is regression testing it with the scenarios that he's familiar with, from a Canonical-support perspective
<bryce> superm1: hmm true
<bryce> superm1: ok I see that killing g-p-m does indeed make the issue go away
<kirkland> slangasek: <EtienneG> kirkland, I cannot promise no regression; my test case is very simple: does the iscsi disk show up?  Can we mount a file system on it?  Can we write to the filesystem?  So far, it is yes to all three, but that's it
<superm1> bryce, yesish, the hang is gone but the key events keep firing until you press another key
<wgrant> And if you turn off key repeat, it works fine.
<slangasek> kirkland: I'm reviewing the debdiff now; is there any sense at all in looking for a cherry-pick fix for this issue, or does tht just increase our risk of regression?
<kirkland> slangasek: hrm, i went by: http://www.open-iscsi.org/index.html#download
<kirkland> The current devel release: open-iscsi-2.0-870-rc3.tar.gz   ... This adds support for 2.6.26 and 2.6.27
<slangasek> ... wait, seriously?  There's a CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED option available in the kernel, and we're not setting it?
<slangasek> correction, CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED_V2
<kirkland> kirkland@t61p:/tmp/open-iscsi.debian$ grep CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED /boot/config-2.6.27-7-generic
<kirkland> # CONFIG_SYSFS_DEPRECATED_V2 is not set
<slangasek> "the previous semi-stable release" - "semi-" is only an acceptable modifier for the sweetness of chocolate used in baking
<kirkland> slangasek: :-D
<kirkland> LoL
<superm1> wgrant, well fine in the sense that the events dont keep firing as repeats, but gpm still steals focus and hangs onto it
<wgrant> superm1: True.
<EtienneG> hey slangasek!
<EtienneG> slangasek, kirkland tell me you are looking at the new open-iscsi package; I have helped test, if you have any question ...
<bryce> superm1: so I'm getting fairly convinced this is due to quirky logic in g-p-m's code
<bryce> superm1: IIRC the code that handles this is relatively fresh, so perhaps this is just a corner case they didn't account for
<slangasek> kirkland: looking at the diff, would it not be sufficient to pull in kernel/2.6.26_compat.patch and avoid all the other development changes
<slangasek> ?
<slangasek> i.e., I think this is the commit that adds compatibility with 2.6.27: http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/mnc/open-iscsi.git;a=commitdiff;h=55896174c0242e6a68ff4e91173acab8d1be8a7c
<kirkland> slangasek: hmm, i can try to test that
<slangasek> kirkland: ok, thanks - if that works, it would seem to let us contain the delta much better
<kirkland> slangasek: understood
<slangasek> I'm afk for a bit now
<crimsun> bdmurray: regarding your query for bug 289621, about 18 hours ago I committed a fix in my PPA
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289621 in gnome-media "Sound Recorder - microphone recording regression in Intrepid Ibex (dup-of: 282316)" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289621
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 282316 in alsa-plugins "erratic elapsed time count in "sound recorder" " [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/282316
<crimsun> bdmurray: I've since commented in the master bug and asked people to use the fixed one
<crimsun> superm1: ^
<TheMuso> crimsun: probably a pulse alsa plugin issue, I know about it and alsa-plugins git has a fix for it which I intend to apply as an SRU.
<crimsun> TheMuso: that's what's in my PPA
<TheMuso> crimsun: Right.
<bdmurray> TheMuso: so that bug should be targetted to intrepid-updates?
<TheMuso> bdmurray: Well there are actually a few bugs reporting similar issues, so whatever bug is actually filed against alsa-plugins should be.
<crimsun> bdmurray: the master bug mistakenly has a gnome-media task; I added the appropriate culprit (alsa-plugins)
<YokoZar> Whoa massive failure trying to install 8.10 for me: Ubiquity didn't display any partitions when it got to the partition step  (using the RC image)
<seb128> crimsun: you should rather change the component when it's incorrect than adding a new one
<crimsun> seb128: yes, I probably should have, but I hadn't read /all/ the duplicates
<seb128> ok, just saying it in case, some people close the task as invalid and add new one but that means that people subscribed to the component which has the close task still get mails
 * TheMuso wishes that component changing could be done via email... Unless it can and I don't know about it yet. :)
<bdmurray> TheMuso: I don't think it can, however you might be able to script it with python-launchpad-bugs
<ScottK> TheMuso: /me suggest filing bugs.
<TheMuso> ScottK: Yeah I think I will once I've checked to make sure there is not a bug already about that.
 * TheMuso finds the email interface 10 times more efficient.
 * ScottK may have already filed that one.  Don't recall for sure.
<slangasek> kirkland: how goes it?
<kirkland> slangasek: i just got it to build
<kirkland> slangasek: frigging limits.h
<kirkland> slangasek: that's bitten me one too many times this dev cycle
<slangasek> heh
<kirkland> slangasek: i had to modify the Makefile too, obviously
<slangasek> right
<kirkland> slangasek: you reckon this bit of the makefile is necessary?
<kirkland> +dpkg_divert:
<kirkland> +       for module in $(ko) ; do \
<kirkland> +               dpkg-divert --rename /lib/modules/$(KERNELRELEASE)/$(INSTALL_MOD_DIR)/$$module ; \
<kirkland> +       done
<slangasek> uh
<kirkland> slangasek: i left it out
<NCommander> kirkland, what are you trying to build specifically?
<slangasek> absent a specific rationale, please do
<kirkland> slangasek: looked kinda forceful, inappropriate
<kirkland> NCommander: open-iscsi
<slangasek> dpkg-divert --rename without --divert is nasty and probably incorrect here
<kirkland> slangasek: another question ...
<kirkland> slangasek: this package does not currently have a patch system
<kirkland> slangasek: shall I add one?  it's already carrying one minor bashism fix in the diff.gz (nasty, again)
<slangasek> If there are already upstream changes in the diff.gz, I wouldn't bother adding a patch system
<slangasek> besides, the kernel/ directory effectively *is* a patch system :)
<kirkland> slangasek: yeah
<kirkland> slangasek: current state is http://people.ubuntu.com/~kirkland/open-iscsi/
<kirkland> slangasek: i'm moving on to testing it now
<slangasek> kirkland: hrm, I'm looking closer and suddenly fearful that nothing in that directory is used if we're not building the kernel modules, which we aren't
<slangasek> so I may have led you on a wild goose chase :P
<kirkland> slangasek: empirical testing of this deb has confirmed that it is re-broken again
<slangasek> right :/
<kirkland> slangasek: okay, how about I leave my -870 package for Mathiaz's regression testing tomorrow.  he's in London for the release sprint
<kirkland> so he's also one your pseudo-Europish time
<slangasek> ok
<kirkland> slangasek: i'm going to inform dendrobates that i've taken it as far as I can
<kirkland> slangasek: and that I'm going to leave it for mathiaz to pick up tomorrow; and it'll be up to the release team as to whether or not it's accepted
<slangasek> right, thanks
<slangasek> I'll putz around with the package itself a bit more; to see if I can either isolate the key fix, or come to terms with the whole diff
<bdmurray> apachelogger: mvo recently added a quirk to update-manager that might handle bug 289611 if I understand it correctly.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289611 in kdebase-workspace "Hardy KDE 4 remix to Intrepid is incomplete" [Undecided,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289611
<NCommander> lamont, ping
#ubuntu-devel 2008-10-28
<calc> ouch bug 286175
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286175 in fontconfig "evince crashed with SIGSEGV in FcConfigSubstituteWithPat()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286175
<calc> read that bug as (fontconfig using program) crashes when fc-cache run
* calc changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: 8.10 RC released | archive: Release Freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-hardy, #ubuntu+1 for intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs || Evil bug 286175
<dholbach> good morning
<MTecknology> I'm trying to use the PackageInfo plugin that ubottu uses. I keep getting an error thrown at me and I'm sure it's because of the supybot.plugins.PackageInfo.aptdir setting, but I don't know what to set it too or if there's something else I need to do
<MTecknology> Anybody know wbat I'm doing wrong?
<pitti> Good morning
<MTecknology> hi
<MTecknology> pitti: any advice?
<MTecknology> I need to go to sleep soon :P
<pitti> I don't know about ubottu's guts, sorry
<wgrant> How do I get that horrid Landscape ad out of my MOTD?
<pitti> wgrant: it's from /etc/update-motd.d/50-landscape-sysinfo
<wgrant> pitti: Ah, thanks... is it really meant to tell me to go there even when my machine has no Landscape account?
<pitti> wgrant: well, it's from landscape-common, the sysinfo component
<pitti> (which works without a landscape account)
<wgrant> I know.
<wgrant> But it tells me to go to landscape.c.c to manage it.
<wgrant> Which is wrong, unless I want to pay large amounts of cash.
<lool> morning
<slangasek> morning
 * Hobbsee waves, from the land of wet string
<soren> Hobbsee: There's a land of wet string?
<Hobbsee> soren: yeah.  My uni connection
<Hobbsee> soren: well, apart from 'australia' in general
<soren> Hobbsee: Oh. Heh :)
<Hobbsee> soren: :)
<persia> It's not so much that the string is wet : it's the small rubber bands used to patch the places where the string broke.
<Hobbsee> and the carrier pidgeons.
<ogra> they are wet ?
<persia> wet carrier pidgeons aren't an issue from being wet, but they will get delayed if they can find a dry place to hide for a few hours.
<Hobbsee> yeah...
 * Hobbsee eyes 33 second lag with distaste.
<ogra> but i imagine they fly a lot slower if wet ... at least our european carrier pidgeons do ...
<wgrant> THe problem is that our string is getting a bit dry due to the drought.
<persia> ogra, Clearly you need the intense competition for resources with marsupial flying bats to breed the best sort of pidgeon.
 * Hobbsee giggles
<ogra> well, bats come with raincoats by design ... thats why there are so many more than pidgeons don under i guess
<ogra> *down
<wgrant> It helps that bats hang upside down, so they have fewer problems down here.
<ogra> yeah, they have a good sense of direction
<evand> YokoZar: Please file a bug and attach /var/log/syslog and /var/log/partman
<YokoZar> evand: didn't get no /var/log because it was from the live CD session...I should retest with a daily
<YokoZar> evand: but I'll try and reproduce again.  Seems serious.
<evand> YokoZar: I'm confused by that statement.  Why would it being run from the live CD session not produce /var/log?
<slangasek> probably means he didn't save the /var/log
<nickbooker> I understand acpi-support is now deprecated.  I've got a laptop here whose wireless doesn't come back after resume so where should I put the runes to re-enable it?
<nickbooker> sorry wrong channel
<mathiaz> slangasek: are you respinning the -server isos?
<mathiaz> soren: ^^
<slangasek> mathiaz: we're doing a full respin because of ubuntu-minimal changes; the open-iscsi thing is still semi-pending, I'm deferring ubuntu-server reroll until that's settled
<soren> slangasek: What's holding back a decision on open-iscsi?
<slangasek> soren: my abject horror at accepting a 20kloc diff two days before release
<slangasek> with only minimal regression-testing on Ubuntu, none whatsoever on Debian because the Debian package was botched, and who knows what from upstream given that this is a "development release" version
<slangasek> soren: so I've been biding my time hoping someone has a better idea :)
<cjwatson> no hope of a cherry-pick?
<slangasek> cjwatson: the cherry-pick is minimum 2kloc, and depends on other patches in the git tree
<cjwatson> oh, ok, read the mail now
<slangasek> so I would say no
<soren> was I copied on this e-mail?
<slangasek> no, I can bounce it to you
<slangasek> bounced
<soren> Thank you.
<Koon> I'm not sure shipping with a well-tested userland that just doesn't match the kernel side of things (and officially breaks things) is better than shipping potentially broken code.
<mathiaz> Koon: well - in the former we at least know what's broken.
<Koon> mathiaz: I am not sure we know the exact extents of the breakage, though.
<Koon> we know what still works.
<cjwatson> Koon: yeah, that's why the choice is horrible
<Koon> cjwatson: yes, and I lack the release experience (and accompanying horror stories) to be of any good advice here :)
<slangasek> it doesn't help much here
<slangasek> we're still basically flipping a coin
<pitti> mvo: bug 288662, comments 7 and 8 are interesting; maybe we should improve the u-m message about the nvidia->nv migration to point out what won't work any more?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 288662 in jockey "Incompatible Restricted drivers offered for Legacy Nvidia Cards" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/288662
<pitti> mvo: we could do that in an SRU, since it only affects upgrades
<cjwatson> on iSCSI, I think I'm coming to the conclusion that it would be better to spend time making sure we've fixed the problem properly (since every time we look we seem to find another problem) and SRU that, and also release-note it for upgraders
<cjwatson> but this is a vote not a veto
<mvo> pitti: let me have a look
<mathiaz> Koon: cjwatson: bug 236640 <- this is another bug that impacts the installer run in iscsi mode
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 236640 in open-iscsi "iSCSI install fails under hardy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/236640
<slangasek> cjwatson: oh, have there been a series of problems with iscsi?
<cjwatson> slangasek: boot order busted; multiple targets; and I think something else
<slangasek> ah
<tseliot> pitti, mvo: multiple screens layouts will be lost too. Clone mode should still work with nv though
<cjwatson> mathiaz: though not a regression
<slangasek> mdz: did you have thoughts on the iscsi update question?
<mvo> pitti: I answered in the bug
<pitti> mvo: how may translations do we actually have?
<mvo> pitti: few it seems, some chinese ones, but that seems to be it (from looking at the po files, I have not checked rosetta directly)
<slangasek> cjwatson: hmm, I had been thinking iSCSI featured prominently in the technical overview for intrepid to date, but I guess I was thinking of the entry in the release notes... so it's not omgkittens terrible if iSCSI support at 8.10 release time is not as good as 8.04's, if we release-note the issues
<slangasek> I don't know if iSCSI users are likely to stick with the LTS anyway?
<mathiaz> slangasek: right - moreover considering that iscsi support in the installer is not working (and this is not a regression) I don't see a compelling reason to push it into release
 * slangasek nods
<mathiaz> slangasek: seems that an SRU and a note in the release notes is good enough.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> that's settled, then; I'll queue up ubuntu-server for rebuilding with the rest of the bunch
<cjwatson> slangasek: yes, I had the same misrecollection about our comms
<mathiaz> slangasek: I've updated bug 289470 by adding a task for ubuntu-release-notes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289470 in open-iscsi "open-iscsi user-space does not match kernel module version" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289470
<slangasek> mathiaz: great, thanks
<mathiaz> slangasek: is there anything that needs to be done?
<slangasek> mathiaz: uh... ISOs need to be tested? :-)
<slangasek> or did you mean "anything" in the context of that bug? :)
<mathiaz> slangasek: yes - in the context of that bug
<mathiaz> slangasek: I'm not planning to head out to the bahamas (yet)
<slangasek> if you wanted to draft the release notes text, that would certainly be appreciated
<TheMuso> /c/c
<mvo> slangasek: you appear to have the lock right now on the IntrepidReleaseNotes page, is that still current?
<slangasek> yes, it is
<slangasek> mvo: drop the text in the bug instead and I can pick it up from there?
<mvo> slangasek: ok, will do - thanks
<mvo> slangasek: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-release-notes/+bug/259385/comments/32
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 259385 in Ubuntu Intrepid "Intrepid Compiz hangs on login for i830MG and i845 video cards" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<liw> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs lists 290024, even though that is milestoned for intrepid-updates, not intrepid; is that the way it should be?
<wgrant> liw: That just shows bugs targetted to Intrepid.
<wgrant> Targetting is orthogonal to milestoning.
<liw> then I admit I am lost in Launchpad. never mind, I'll figure it out when release pressure is over
<slangasek> liw: what wgrant said; the milestone name is "ubuntu-8.10" rather than "intrepid", and the list of critical bugs for that milestone shows up at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1326
<liw> that list is empty
<wgrant> I'd hope so.
<slangasek> (the list of /non/-critical bugs for that milestone shows up at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.10, which is a nicer url but much less useful to the release team :)
<slangasek> liw: yes, and that's a great feeling :-)
<liw> slangasek, ok, so is there something I can do to help the release?
<wgrant> Test test test!
<slangasek> liw: yes, we're in the "test to make sure we really didn't miss any critical bugs and the CDs hold together" phase
<liw> test what? ISOs? upgrade my laptop to intrepid? test things randomly?
 * liw is inquisitive
<slangasek> anything that's live on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all
 * wgrant would recommend DVDs, if you have bandwidth.
<wgrant> They always need more testing.
<mvo> wasabi: hey! re bug #288432 - does it work if you remove xorg.conf entirely? is it a problem with the new xorg.conf, does the old one work (if you rename the copy it made)?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 288432 in xorg "upgrade to intrepid caused boot to console with nvidia card" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/288432
 * Hobbsee fries all the spam discarded from the ubuntu-devel@ moderation queue
<Hobbsee> breakfast, anyone?
<soren> Hobbsee: Oh, there too? The motu lists got hit as well :(
<dholbach> soren: going through it right now
<dholbach> [1/514] ============ ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com ======================
<soren> dholbach: Actually, then there's that many, I'd use the web interface.
<Hobbsee> dholbach: you win.
<soren> dholbach: It has a checkbox at the bottom to discard everything.
<Hobbsee> soren: it usually gets hit - maybe it just wasn't unmoderated for a while
<soren> dholbach: Correction: To discard everything that you haven't explicitly accepted or something.
<Hobbsee> soren: at least for u-d@, most of it gets knocked off by some basic rules
<Hobbsee> soren: so it only takes a few minutes
<Hobbsee> which is a huge help!
<dholbach> soren: woohoo, you're right
<dholbach> I didn't use the moderation pages in a long time :)
<soren> dholbach: Me neither, since your told me about listadmin. :)   But for this amount of stuff to be discarded in one go, it's actually faster.
<dholbach> yeah
<soren> Hobbsee: I think that's true for the motu lists as well. Either that, or dholbach is some kind of ninja that moderates things as fast as I receive mail from mailman about them needing moderation.
<Hobbsee> hehe
<Hobbsee> well, we knew dholbach was a ninja
<dholbach> thanks for the flowers :)
<liw> Hobbsee, I've seen dholbach, so how can he be a ninja?
<dholbach> liw: did you see me in my black ninja dress already?
<liw> dholbach, no, I only saw an empty chair
<liw> perhaps that's all the proof we need of ninjaness
<jwendell> hi, mako. is your book 'debian bible' free? I mean, if I find some pdf on the internet, is it legal?
<dholbach> soren: what does    kvm: 28429: cpu0 unhandled rdmsr: 0x417   mean? :)
<heno> *** We have a selection of freshly baked ISO images from this morning at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ Please help test! ***
<Treenaks> dholbach: that the guest tried to read Machine Specific Register 0x417, but that that case is not handled? ;)
<Keybuk> weird, my kvm machine appears to have locked up
<Koon> Keybuk: I've been experiencing quite a few kvm guest lockups recently.
<Koon> I had trouble so far determining a pattern.
<jdstrand> Keybuk: I had a lockup with my laptop that looked just like the ipw2200 iwl3495 bug we all looked at-- but just the one since the new kernel (I booted it 82 times with no lockups) :/
<jdstrand> only thing different was I was on battery power at the time, and my 82 boots were all on AC
 * mvo had kvm lockups as well, but only in gui mode, never in headless mode
<ogra> 82 times ? wow, thats two fscks at least
<soren> dholbach: Unless I'm mistaken it means one of my patches has been dropped :(
<jdstrand> ogra: 3-- I never bothered to change the defaults
<tseliot> pitti: I can't reproduce the treeview bug with jockey-kde
<tseliot> pitti: I know how to fix this bug though: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/jockey/+bug/227658
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 227658 in jockey "Jockey fails to enable Virtual Box display driver" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<tseliot> pitti: I'll have to write a handler for virtualbox guest utils so that the Device and InputDevice sections are configured by jockey
<munckfish> NCommander: you seen this one LP: #278801
<munckfish> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-ps3-port/+bug/278801
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 278801 in linux-ports "2.6.27 default TCP congestion control regression..." [Undecided,Confirmed]
<pitti> tseliot: treeview> good to know, thanks for checking
<pitti> tseliot: I'll fix the gtk bit
<pitti> tseliot: virtualbox handler would be awesome indeed
<munckfish> NCommander: ports got missed does you're new 2.6.27 kernel have the correct setting?
<NCommander> munckfish, we can do a SRU to fix the ports tree
<NCommander> munckfish, ATM, intrepid-proposed/intrepid-updates isn't open yet, so it will have to wait for that
<munckfish> NCommander: sure
<NCommander> munckfish, fix committed to jaunty
<munckfish> NCommander: cool thx
<munckfish> NCommander: I'll deal with the old one. I've a few other things I need to negotiate with the KT about releasing
<munckfish> "old one" ---> "Intrepid Ports"
<NCommander> right
<seb128> soren: hi, is the mouse move being laggy in virt-manager a known issue? it works correctly in kvm though
<tseliot> pitti:ok, I'll work on it then ;)
<soren> seb128: It's not something I've noticed, but I don't really test gui stuff in kvm much.
<RaffoPazzo> hi
<neighborlee> hello ;0-
<RaffoPazzo> does anybody ever encountered "undefined symbol" problem while running an application ?
<neighborlee> yeah it happens..;)
<Chipzz> RaffoPazzo: wrong channel
<RaffoPazzo> it's a developing channel, i think that someone could help me
<ion_> RaffoPazzo: wrong channel
<RaffoPazzo> which channel should i go in ?
<neighborlee> RaffoPazzo, typically  not  unless its blender related..not that someone would mind but usuallly such things are asked of the channel specifically for that application ;)
<neighborlee> what is the app
<RaffoPazzo> my own developed application
<RaffoPazzo> for an embedded ARM linux system
<neighborlee> what language
<RaffoPazzo> C
<neighborlee> then : #c
<RaffoPazzo> i have some sort of problem with static linking
<RaffoPazzo> well
<RaffoPazzo> thanks anyway
<RaffoPazzo> bye
 * Chipzz proposes a nag screen in xchat on startup and on joining a channel that instructs people to read the bloody topic :P
<Chipzz> preferably with a non-obvious way of turning it of :P
<liw> Chipzz, that'll only work if xchat forces people to type (not copy+paste) the topic into the program...
<Chipzz> liw: I'm guessing people (especially newbies) don't even notice the topic
<Chipzz> drawing attention to the fact that irc channels *have* topics and that those topics are *relevant* to the channel would go a long way
<Shanix_> hi all, does anyone know why if I use the "sudo fence_tool dump" command, after it's complete, the CPU usage go up to 100% and stay there? And fenced is the process using the CPU
<Shanix_> using the redhat-cluster-suite package
<jdong> what's the fancy new Intrepid replacement for xmodmaps?
<jdong> (usecase: key swapping)
<Keybuk> jdong: what's wrong with xmodmap?
<ion_> Iâm using xmodmap on intrepid.
<calc> can anyone familiar with fontconfig look at bug 286175
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286175 in fontconfig "evince crashed with SIGSEGV in FcConfigSubstituteWithPat()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286175
 * calc thinks this one will bite us right after release
<jdong> Keybuk: on unplugging and replugging the input device, the mapping is lost
<Keybuk> sure, because you need to run xmodmap again
<ogra> why doesnt udev do that for keyboards ?
<jdong> Keybuk: what's the best way to discover when this happens and run xmodmap automatically?
<Keybuk> ogra: udev doesn't do anything in this regard, and it should not
<Keybuk> jdong: what are you changing with xmodmap?
<ogra> why not ? (beyond the fact that xmodmap is a workaround tool)
<jdong> Keybuk: alt<->super
<Keybuk> ogra: well, for a start, xmodmap needs authorisation for a list of X sessions it needs to touch?
<Keybuk> jdong: isn't that a standard variant option?
<ogra> hmm, right ... to high level
<jdong> Keybuk: is it!
<Keybuk> System -> Preferences -> Keyboard -> Layouts -> Other Options -> Alt/Win key behaviour
<jdong> Keybuk: you rock.
<federico1> jwendell: ping
<jwendell> federico1, pong
<federico1> jwendell: hey there!
<jwendell> federico1, hello!
<federico1> jwendell: I'm looking into gtk-vnc for an Important Customer(tm) bug
<jwendell> hehe
<Keybuk> jdong: your variant might not be there, of course
<lobo-ptr> hi
<Keybuk> ogra: the "correct" way would be for whatever is currently applying xkb options (gnome-settings-daemon I think?) to do it
<calc> bryce: you almost have xorg into green status :)
<ogra> Keybuk, yeah, indeed
<jwendell> federico1, you might want to join #virt at oftc
<jwendell> gtk-vnc devs are there ;)
<bryce> calc, on which?
<ogra> i thought hal ... but hal wont be picked up by X ... it could only trigger something even higher level ... g-s-d seems the right place
<Keybuk> ogra: though I'd argue that xmodmap is a horrible interface - and that something much better could be dreamed up
<ogra> ++
<federico1> jwendell: oftc?
<ogra> hal can do that already through .fdi files though ... but sadly not very dynamic if the X server is up once
<jwendell> federico1, irc.oftc.net
<federico1> jwendell: ah, ok, thanks
<jwendell> The Open and Free Technology Community
<Keybuk> ogra: that's a fallback though
<Keybuk> the actual way your keyboard layout is selected is by gnome-settings-daemon
<Keybuk> which speaks xkb
<ogra> right, but you can modify xkb via .fdi
<calc> bryce: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport
<calc> bryce: > 90% turns it green, you are at exactly 90% right now :)
<Keybuk> ogra: but you shouldn't
<bryce> calc, heh right on the edge
<ogra> if you want it to catch a low level .fdi is a way to do it if you want it user configurable g-s-d is it
<Keybuk> besides, I'm being told that .fdi files are going away any day now
<calc> bryce: that page is generated realtime so any changes you make are visible immediately
<ogra> in devicekit :)
<pitti> Keybuk: conversion to udev rules for DeviceKit?
<Keybuk> devicekit doesn't do fdi
<ogra> we still use hal all over the place
<Keybuk> which sucks
<ogra> but is the current tool
<Keybuk> actually, I really don't like the fact that devicekit throws away the nice structured HAL keys
<Keybuk> HAL has strings, integers, arrays, structures
<Keybuk> all DeviceKit has is FOO=BAR
<ogra> yeah
<Keybuk> I think we should throw it all away
<ogra> heh
<Keybuk> and reimplement udev, HAL, DeviceKit, PolicyKit and ConsoleKit
<ogra> do it in kernel ?
<Keybuk> we could call it
<Keybuk> DeviceCore!
<ogra> hehe
<pitti> Keybuk: we could call it "Linux 3.0"?
<bryce> calc, ok fixed
<Keybuk> pitti: Linux X!
<bryce> calc, the proportion of green on that page overall is pretty impressive
<jdong>  do we get cool animal names too?
<bryce> calc, although a lot have <5 bugs upstreamed.
<TomaszD_> hello, does http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/ contain the final release, barring any unforseen catastrophic issues?
<pitti> ogra: dbus will actually move into the kernel (no kidding)
<lobo-ptr> I want to be a prospective ubuntu developer, found myself a bug and have a problem with dget tool. Am I asking for help on a proper chanell?
<ogra> pitti, i know
<ogra> pitti, i'm evngelizing that topic since prague ;)
<calc> bryce: yea, i think it should be green based on all parts not just upstreamed vs pending_upstream
<calc> TomaszD_: always :)
<calc> TomaszD_: its just that most of the time there will be updates ;-)
<calc> TomaszD_: just use rsync to update and it won't take much to get the final version if it does change
<calc> TomaszD_: the last rsync update i did only downloaded 4MB to update my iso
<sistpoty|work> lobo-ptr: #ubuntu-motu would be more appropriate
<calc> cjwatson: how does the url you sent in the email differ from: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.10 ?
<calc> well other than the fact that LP now oopes on it
<lobo-ptr> sistpoty|work, thanks
<calc> cjwatson: the reason i am asking is that LP seems to not show milestoned bugs at times, especially ones for openoffice.org unless i go to the overall Ubuntu milestone list
<calc> cjwatson: eg i do a search for OOo milestoned bugs and it shows nothing at all for me
 * calc 's wife just told him he headed to lunch, bbia 1hr
<neighborlee> highvoltage, there is something wrong with #ubuntu..I can get connect to any other channel, but #ubuntu is sending my xchat cliento  south of the border ;)....any one know maybe whats up ? ;))
<pitti> kirkland: just set up my new laptop installation with ecryptfs; works nicely
<pitti> kirkland: I symlinked .mozilla, .ssh, and .gnupg into Private/
<kirkland> pitti: very nice, good to hear ;-)
<seb128> pitti: can I reassign the nautilus and private directory interaction bugs to you now? ;-)
 * seb128 has no such setup and no interest in working on that
<pitti> seb128: I now get a Private mount icon and Private directory on my desktop, but I guess I have to live with that
<pitti> seb128: what kind of trouble does it give, nautilus-wise?
<seb128> pitti: a mount icon which is not working apparently
<seb128> or rather than you can't unmount
<pitti> hm, I can open either
<pitti> (the dir or the mount icon)
<pitti> seb128: oh, unmount; I don't think you are supposed to
<kirkland> the dir open works fine for me
<seb128> right, the complain are about the dir being listed as a mount where it's not one
<pitti> but I'd actually prefer if I wouldn't see the mount icon at all
<pitti> well, it is a mount
<kirkland> pitti: for unmount, the unmount action on that icon needs to be pointed to /sbin/umount.ecryptfs_private
<seb128> so it's listed in the places list, etc
<kirkland> filesystem of type -t ecryptfs could be excluded from that list, no?
<kirkland> i think that might be the easiest thing
<pitti> right, I'd rather special-case this kind of fs from being displayed in nautilus
<kirkland> blacklist ecryptfs filesystem types
<pitti> seb128: feel free to assign that bug to me, yes
<seb128> pitti: thanks ;-)
<seb128> pitti: do you think just not listing those mounts is the easier way?
<seb128> because if we want to do that that's a trivial glib change
<pitti> seb128: well, I'm trying to think what the best way would be experience-wise
<seb128> the other way is to teach gnome-mount to work correctly on those
<pitti> and since users can't mount/umount ecryptfs directories ATM, there is little point in showing them
<seb128> I'm not sure if that should be showed as normal directory to the user
<pitti> just using the Private directory seems much more straightforward
<seb128> or rather as a mount
<pitti> personally I'd favor the directory
<pitti> sure, it's a "magic" one, but that it is a mount is purely an implementation detail
<pitti> at least having two is pointless, I should have either the dir or the mount
<seb128> right
<seb128> I think I know what to change to glib to ignore those, will give it a try after intrepid
 * pitti -> dinner, bbl
<seb128> enjoy!
<pitti> seb128: yeah, should be a simple mount type filter
<kees> slangasek: is "enscript" on any of the CDs?
<mvo> kirkland: I added ~/Private today too and I'm a happy user of it \o/
<kirkland> mvo: awesome ;-)  glad to hear
 * kirkland far prefers happy users to gripey users
 * kees still wishes there was a simple way he could answer the "is it on a CD?" question for himself.
<kees> pitti: hi! do you happen to have visibility into which packages end up on the various CDs?
<pitti> kees: yes, that's not a secret; the lists are right beside the .iso files, in .manifest (desktops) and .list (alternates)
<pitti> kees: to be precise, .list is the CD contents, while .manifest is the contents of a livefs
<pitti> Keybuk: hm, seems my SD card reader stopped working entirely in intrepid; even booting with a card inside doesn't help any more; does your's work?
<kees> pitti: ah! okay
<pitti> kees: some clever combination of wget and grep can probably make this easy
<kees> pitti: wait, this is a file list, not a package list?
<pitti> kees: no, a package list
<pitti> I'm not aware of file lists
<kees> pitti: ah! sorry, I see now -- all the html early in the list tricked me.  :)
<Keybuk> pitti: err, haven't tried recently
<ogra> mine worked on saturday
<Keybuk> pitti: it worked relatively recently
<ogra> and does so today as well, mounts both partitions
<kees> if I have a security update for a package that doesn't appear on the CDs, can I upload it?
 * calc back
<calc> cjwatson: ping
<cjwatson> calc: Launchpad supports two nearly-though-not-quite-independent pieces of information on bugs: release target (hardy, intrepid, etc.) and milestone (intrepid-alpha-1, ubuntu-8.10-beta, ubuntu-8.10, intrepid-updates, etc.)
<calc> ah ok
<cjwatson> calc: the URL you quote above only looks at the milestone; the URL I sent looks at both
<cjwatson> calc: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RCBugTargetting is supposed to explain when to use each of those
<calc> cjwatson: bug 286175 might should be RC targeted
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286175 in fontconfig "evince crashed with SIGSEGV in FcConfigSubstituteWithPat()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286175
<calc> cjwatson: it also crashes OOo (or a very similar issue in the same function does)
<cjwatson> calc: I mentioned it on #ubuntu-release earlier, but nobody bit
<calc> oh ok
<cjwatson> calc: I do distinctly remember showing you RCBugTargetting in a foundations team meeting a few weeks ago :)
<calc> cjwatson: sorry i must have forgotten :(
<calc> cjwatson: i guess i thought it was a bug since i see a somewhat similar (but real bug i think) with openoffice.org bug listings
<calc> er a bug wrt displaying the bugs on LP
<cjwatson> basically, the state that bug is in indicates that a developer would like to fix it for that milestone, but it isn't RC
<calc> cjwatson: for openoffice.org if i try to list all bugs relating to a milestone it shows nothing
<cjwatson> calc: is there a candidate fix for that bug? if not, it has no hope
<cjwatson> calc: even if it does, it has almost no hope; we have already rolled images that we hope are final, and uploading fontconfig would require rerolling almost everything
<calc> cjwatson: i haven't looked bisected yet to see if it was a bug we introduced or an upstream bug
<cjwatson> calc: it seems more plausible to fix that in an SRU
<calc> cjwatson: ok
<cjwatson> calc: which, from the description, seems pretty sensible
<calc> anyone updating while running OOo (maybe evince? and others) will see the apps crash when fc-cache is run
<cjwatson> calc: I agree it's a serious problem as described, and have targeted it to intrepid and moved the milestone to intrepid-updates
<calc> but hopefully apport can group the bugs together quickly :)
<calc> i agree i doubt a resolution can even be found in time much less the rerolling of the images
<cjwatson> calc: if you can confirm the problem definitively, then please use "also affects project" to add a task on ubuntu-release-notes, perhaps suggesting some task we can add there
<cjwatson> calc: maybe it's enough to say that people should close applications before upgrading, e.g.
<calc> there was a change from 2.5.0 to 2.6.0 in intrepid which might have caused it
<calc> cjwatson: yea telling them close apps before upgrading will help a lot of with crash bug reports
<calc> i'll try grabbing the old release of fontconfig and see if it still crashes
<calc> hmm i don't see reference to this bug upstream so far, i'll test 2.5 from hardy and see if it still crashes though
<seb128> calc: can you trigger the bug in a reliable way? in which case you should probably open an upstream bug
<seb128> if you can't opening the bug upstream might still be a good idea
<calc> seb128: i need to try to trigget it with other apps, i can easily reproduce it with our openoffice.org packages
<calc> seb128: someone else got a similar (not certain if the same) crash with evince
<seb128> there is quite some evince crashes too
<calc> well i mean a crash in the same fontconfig function
<calc> all you have to do to see the OOo crash is move a font out of the way, run fc-cache and boom
<calc> or add a font, run fc-cache and boom
<calc> basically anytime the cache changes i guess
<pitti> Keybuk: lsusb says "0b97:7762 O2 Micro, Inc. Oz776 SmartCard Reader"; I guess your d420 has a similar one?
<Keybuk> identical
<Keybuk> however I don't have an SD card to hand to test with
<pitti> Keybuk: ok, thanks
<ogra> ah, mine is pci
<Keybuk> pitti: how doesn't it work?
<pitti> Keybuk: if I plug it in, or boot with one inside, nothing happens at all
<pitti> no dmesg, no udev, no device
<calc> i'm doing a vm install so i can beat on it without breaking my laptop
<ogra> pitti, is that thing builtin ?
<pitti> ogra: yes
<Keybuk> I have found an SD card
 * ogra just had a hard two weeks to find out his builtin webcam can be powered off by an undocumented fn key combo
<Keybuk> pitti: my SD card reader functions perfectly
 * pitti wonders how to map "Bus 002 Device 005" to something in /sys/bus/usb/devices
<pitti> Keybuk: ok, thanks for testing
<pitti> this is a brand new and complete intrepid install
<Keybuk> pitti: have you used the SD card reader recently?
<pitti> Keybuk: no, not for several months
<Keybuk> I had similar symptoms a while back
<Keybuk> the SD card reader simply did not function, no events, no anything
<pitti> you gave it a good shake?
<Keybuk> a man from Dell came and replaced the entire main board of the laptop
<Keybuk> pitti: have you tried hardy or ... other operating systems?
<jdong>      Cooling 0: Processor 0 of 10
<pitti> Keybuk: no, not yet
<jdong> what on earth does that actually mean? :)
<ion_> The zeroth processor, obviously.
<jdong> ion_: lol the entire construct doesn't parse in my head
<jdong> this is a dual-core machine, I g et a Cooling 0 and Cooling 1 message
<jdong> and the "Processor 0 of 10" part makes no sense to me
<ogra> so they accidentially built in 20 CPUs in your machine :)
<jdong> O COOL IT CAN GOEZ FASTER??
<ogra> only gentoo with -OALLCPUS will work on it :P
<calc> jdong: quad processor?
<jdong> no, single-proc dual-core
<calc> oh hmm can't even be 10b cores then
<jdong> it is probably some sort of ACPI quirk of this evil Apple machine :)
<calc> yea Apple's are evil
<jdong> :)
<calc> they put poor Dr Watson out of work ;-)
<ogra> did you buy it on april 1st ?
<jdong> unfortunately not :)
<ogra> probably a special edition
<Keybuk> 10 is 2 in binary
<cjwatson> calc: I never did bother getting a doctorate ...
<calc> Keybuk: but 2 is the 3rd processor if you start with 0
<calc> cjwatson: dr watson being the crash handler on windows (from what i recall)
<calc> apple keeping doctors away and all ;-)
<cjwatson> calc: yeah, I know :)
<jdong> an apple a day just makes for more kernel hacking to thwack AHCI :)
<ogra> calc, i bet colin has handled lost of windows crashes in his life :)
<jdong> and that's what I forgot to do with  this iMac setup!
<calc> ogra: heh :)
 * jdong grumbles and queues up a quick kernel build
<ogra> *lots even
 * calc wants 11n wireless transfering isos takes too long on 11g
<cjwatson> ogra: not really, haven't used Windows in 10+ years
<calc> 1-2MB/s is too slow
<ogra> really ? not even for friends ?
<jdong> calc: that pisses me off too. I can't get the ATA controller into AHCI mode but color me amused this draft-N broadcom worked with one click.
<liw> calc, and here I'm whining that gigabit is too slow
<calc> i unfortunately still have to use windows with testing out OOo bugs, heh
<calc> so what is real world transfer for 11n around 10-20MB/s ?
<Keybuk> I use Windows quite often
 * ogra finally converted his GF last weekend ... last XP in reach is gone now
<calc> i'm going to attempt to convert my wife over when i replace her machine in dec 09
<jdong> calc: well campus just got those fancy Cisco UFO routers and I pull about 10MB/s from my dorm server
<cjwatson> ogra: well, not other than trivially and not for long enough to run into crashes at any rate
<jdong> calc: the dorm system is hooked up on 100mbit and I think that's the bottleneck
<calc> she used ubuntu back with 4.10 when i originally converted her but we weren't married yet and she lived far away at the time and didn't like that she didn't know how to use it
<ogra> heh, that must have been short then
<calc> jdong: cool
<cjwatson> ogra: my wife uses Ubuntu (or Xandros on the eeePC, but only because I haven't got round to reinstalling that yet)
<cjwatson> and I don't really use anyone else's machine very often
<Chipzz> lobo-ptr: no you're not - #ubuntu-motu would probably be best (cfr topic) ;)
<ogra> susi just got herself a MSI wind netbook ripoff ... she tried out UNR on it and asked me for a standard desktop install after 30min ... with which she's happy now
<calc> anyone else play with vmware 6.5 yet?
<Keybuk> calc: yes
<jdong> calc: gonna do that tonight to get *shudder* iTunes up.
<calc> Keybuk: is there a way to get the keyboard to work with using: xkeymap.nokeycodeMap = "TRUE" ?
<calc> Keybuk: without using that i mean
<Keybuk> no idea, I just used that and was happy
<calc> ok
<calc> i read the manual found that and it worked so i didn't know if there was a better way
<calc> jdong: hint, use that in ~/.vmware/config
<calc> jdong: otherwise up arrow won't work (at least on a US keyboard)
<calc> i keep getting printscreen app popping up was funny for about a second
<YokoZar> I filed a bug for the problem I was having last night: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/290415
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 290415 in ubiquity "ubiquity partition step does not show hard disks that were mounted by user during live CD session" [High,New]
<Keybuk> YokoZar: that's because they're mounted, no?
<ogra> well, ubiquity should unmount them
<YokoZar> Exactly
<cjwatson> yeah, I think it used to, it's release notes fodder at this point though
<calc> so am i right in reading that the new vmware 3d support is only for windows guests?
<cjwatson> YokoZar: I've added a release-notes task
<YokoZar> cjwatson: Maybe if I hadn't been lazy and installed the release candidate two days ago this coulda been fixed :)
<jdstrand> pitti: hi! are you familiar with gnome-system-tools?
<pitti> jdstrand: not intimately, but a bit
<jdstrand> pitti: would you mind looking at bug #287134
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287134 in system-tools-backends "In "Intrepid" beta for correct password enough only 8 correct chars" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287134
<jdstrand> pitti: I just confirmed this for users-admin
<jdstrand> pitti: adduser is ok
<seb128> slangasek: bug #260492 is worth having in the upgrade notes?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 260492 in nautilus "opening a directory using an application change associations incorrectly" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/260492
<jdstrand> pitti: sorry for my confusing comment in the bug. I added a clarifying one
<jdstrand> and updated the description
<pitti> jdstrand: hm, maybe g-s-t still uses 3DES, while standard useradd now uses the new sha256 ones?
<pitti> didn't we have such a kind of transition in hardy or intrepid?
<jdstrand> pitti: that was my initial thought
<seb128> slangasek: to summarize the issue using the nautilus open with dialog used to change the default association (that's fixed in intrepid) but hardy users didn't notice because the settings was not respected in gnome-panel, they will notice after upgrading to intrepid though
<jdstrand> pitti: kees got us to sha256 this cycle, I don't know about earlier cycles
<pitti> jdstrand: I still have 3des passwords in my shadow; if I change my passwd, they get *significantly* longer
<seb128> slangasek: intrepid will not write buggy configuration but users upgrading who used the feature will have to change the association to get it working correctly
<kees> jdstrand, pitti: it's been md5 until intrepid.
<kees> though the installer forces md5, so only newly created users or changed passwords will get the sha512 encoding
<james_w> liboobs has a use_md5 config option
<jdstrand> kees: can you peek at bug #287134 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287134 in system-tools-backends "users-admin sets up maximum 8 character password" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287134
<kees> jdstrand: yeah, looking now
<kees> jdstrand: you just confirmed this?  what does users-admin put in the shadow file for the new user?
<jdstrand> kees: yes, it's confimred
<jdstrand> test3:I1duWRnu6J/9w:14180:0:99999:7:::
<jdstrand> *way* too short
<kees> ieeeeeeee
<kees> it's using 3DES!
<jdstrand> pitti, kees: hardy is not affected
<jdstrand> yeah
<kees> jdstrand: what does it look like in hardy?
<kees> (shadow)
<james_w> liboobs needs to be taught how to do sha passwords
<jdstrand> test3:$1$ndnH4$UnEoh8cev89cH.Yn4g47w1:14180:0:99999:7:::
<kees> james_w: why isn't it using md5?
<james_w> and system-tools-backends needs to be taught to use sha512
<kees> james_w: but it _reverted_ to 3DES.
<james_w> or rather look for it in /etc/pam.d/common-passwd
 * jdstrand thinks liboobs is the worst name of a lib, ever
<sebner> james_w: ahoi! got my mail? nvm for now, we need to go for a sRU
<jdstrand> kees: so looks like md5 in hardy still
<james_w> kees: you won't like this, this is really stupid
<james_w> kees: liboobs defaults to 3DES, and has an option to make it use md5 (but no option for sha)
<kees> james_w: right, but why did that option vanish for intrepid?
<james_w> kees: system-tools-backends looks in /etc/pam.d/passwd and looks for md5 in the options, and tells liboobs to use md5 if found.
 * kees slaps his forehead
<james_w> kees: when sha was turned on this check obviously failed, and so liboobs then defaults to 3DES
<kees> james_w: the correct thing for liboobs to do is parse /etc/login.defs
<kees> (and if it doesn't find a ENCRYPT_METHOD entry, then to look at pam configs)
<kees> and why isn't liboobs just using PAM for this?
<james_w> kees: the correct thing and g-s-t rarely seem to collide
 * kees cries
<slangasek> seb128: yes, sounds like a release notes item to me
<jdstrand> kees, james_w: is it unreasonable to have patch liboobs to default to md5 for intrepid, until a proper fix is found?
<jdstrand> s/have//
<kees> jdstrand: I think that's the best idea, yeah
<james_w> I've got to get on a train soon, so can't patch this myself, but I
<kees> jdstrand: I was actually thinking of tricking liboobs with   " # md5"  in the pam config
<james_w> am sure you can find some way to make this slightly less stupid
<jdstrand> kees: be careful with pam-auth-update stuff...
<jdstrand> it really just searches for the md5 string in pam? even if it's commented?
<kees> james_w: where does liboobs scan the pam configs?
 * sebner slightly feels ignored by james_w but that's also fun somehow xD
<james_w> kees: system-tools-backends
<jdstrand> kees: common-password has a commented md5 in it already
<james_w> kees: Users/Users.pm
<james_w> kees: ./oobs/oobs-usersconfig.c and ./oobs/oobs-user.c from liboobs for their part.
<cjwatson> lool: I could swear I'd made that redirect work, but apache hates me
<jdstrand> kees: so I'm getting the distinct feeling you are going to be handling this bug?
<kees> james_w: yeah, found the code s-t-b now
<james_w> sebner: yeah, sorry, I got your mail, but forgot to reply. I'll look at this for an SRU with you later.
<kees> jdstrand: mostly I'm just crying a whole lot.  I'm certainly working on it, but i'm unfamiliar enough with this code what I'll be leaning on james_w  :)
<jdstrand> then I'll just get back to iso testing...
<sebner> james_w: thx, you wanted to recheck with you. again, no hurry. :) btw, can it be that you are a canoncial employee?
<sebner> *you = I
<kees> s-t-b has an extensively complex and fragile pam config parser.  craaaazy.
<james_w> kees: you've got ten minutes, I can work on the train if you like, but the patch will be a few hours to appear.
<james_w> sebner: yeah, you emailed my canonical address :-)
<kees> james_w: this will go in as an SRU, I assume?
<james_w> kees: that's your call I think.
<kees> I might want to push it as a security update, actually.  but I assume slangasek will murder me if I try to get this in before release.
<slangasek> kees: please don't clutter the pam config for that, just kick liboobs in the head
<kees> slangasek: yeah, agreed.
<jdstrand> slangasek: I don't think it'd work there anyway
<sebner> james_w: really? I saw the canoncial adress but I think I used the ubuntu one. strange ^^, Am I allowed to ask you for how long you have been a employee now? /me is just asked because this is somehow really cool ^ ^
<kees> jdstrand: it would, actually, work.
<slangasek> kees: yes, it's not going in before final :)
<james_w> sebner: about 6 months.
<jdstrand> kees: what is it parsing? my common-password has a commented "md5" in it
<sebner> james_w: WOW! crazy to think off that you joined MOTU just 1 month ago or somethink like that. congratulations, really cool =)
<james_w> kees: I've got to leave, I'll work on this for a security update if you like. I left my book on the train this morning so I've got nothing better to do than kick liboobs.
<jdstrand> ie, the one with the 3DES password
<kees> james_w: okay, yeah, please have at it.
<james_w> jdstrand: on mine md5 is only mentioned in a commented line, which it skips.
<kees> james_w: the immediate fix is to for it to use md5 if "md5" or "sha*" is found in the pam configs
<sebner> james_w: ignore all the typos xD /me is a little bit ill again :\
<jdstrand> james_w: right, I thought kees was suggesting a commented line
<kees> james_w: for jaunty, it'll need to grow proper sha abilities.
<kees> jdstrand: slangasek nixed that idea.
<jdstrand> james_w: anyhoo, it doesn't matter-- you have at it
<james_w> kees: ok, I'll go with that, thanks. I'll try and make sure we don't hit this again when we switch to rot13
<kees> heh
<kees> james_w: I've added liboobs to bug 51551
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 51551 in user-setup "newusers, liboobs uses crypt insted of md5, intrepid installer doesn't use sha512" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/51551
<james_w> kees: cool, thanks. Signing off now. My mobile will work, but I'll have no internet connection for a couple of hours.
<kees> james_w: okay, thanks!
 * kees wonders what Fedora is doing about this....
<NCommander> kees, doing about what?
<kees> NCommander: supposedly Fedora switched to sha512 passwords too, but they use system-backend-tools too
<kees> NCommander: do you have the Fedora beta handy?
<NCommander> I can make it handy
<NCommander> kees, well, as long as PAM knew how to handle the sha512 passwords, everything should just work
<jdstrand> one would think
<NCommander> it doesnt?
<kees> NCommander: that assumes that insane "system management" tools aren't writing their own passwords... like liboobs is.
<NCommander> THen liboobs needs porting to PAM
<RainCT> Uhm.. can the trash and the volume control applets only be added once to the panel? (Because they give an error and ask me if I want to remove them if I try to add them, but those that were there by default are working fine)
<NCommander> kees, well, liboobs sits on dbus, it doesn't seem to access the password database(s) directly
<BrianR___> Where can I find information on the new "ipia" architecture - like the compiler and stuff?
<calc> BrianR___: lpia? its essentially the in order i386 arch that the intel atom uses (aiui)
<BrianR___> calc: Aah. That's why I was having so much trouble finding it. Aparently the in font where I first read about it the 'l' looked like an 'i'
<calc> low power intel architecture :)
<BrianR___> calc: So "http://lwn.net/Articles/247003/" might be a good answer to my question... Would have found it right away if I weren't spelling it wrong.
<BrianR___> calc: Thanks.
<calc> ok
<BrianR___> Oh... Is there any sort of working multiarch thing?
 * pitti finally gets ddebs.ubuntu.com to have correct and gpg-signed release files
<kees> pitti: \o/
<pitti> mvo: question for you in bug 289855
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289855 in update-notifier "incorrect quoting makes intrepid CD detection fail" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289855
<pitti> kees: intrepid being totally frozen is a nice opportunity to work on infrastructure :)
<kees> pitti: nice.  what key is used to sign it?
<pitti> kees: see https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/185625/comments/7
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 185625 in ubuntu "sign the repository at ddebs.ubuntu.com" [Undecided,Fix released]
<geser> pitti: you mean if you can't break packages you break the infrastructure instead? :)
<pitti> MUST ... HACK ...
<mvo> pitti: oh, that is really good - then its probably just a cornercase bug for people without /media/cdrom :)
 * mvo adds a bug followup
<pitti> seb128: are you already sponsoring bug 256048 or shall I do it now?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 256048 in evince "Loading PDF file hang on Loading..." [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/256048
<seb128> pitti: I've several hardy desktop srus I want to do, I'll likely do some tomorrow or the day after that but feel free to do this one if you want
<pitti> seb128: taking that one then
<seb128> thanks
<pitti> seb128: I'm doing CD testing, so I can do some sponsoring in parallel
<seb128> right, I'm doing bug triage right now, too sleeping to do sru uploads now ;-)
<jdong> pitti: you're my hero... That bug has bugged me for quite some time now :)
<pitti> kirkland: if I log out from a chroot, I get "Sessions still open, not unmounting"
<pitti> kirkland: I guess that's from libpam_ecryptfs?
<kirkland> pitti: it's from umount.ecryptfs_private itself;  it has a built-in counter
<kirkland> pitti: count should be in /tmp/ecryptfs-pitti-Private
<kirkland> pitti: it'll unmount when that counter hits 0, or that file doesn't exist
<pitti> kirkland: right, I just wondered why it's that verbose
<kirkland> pitti: in the interest of paranoia, to let you know that your Private data is still mounted
<kirkland> pitti: it's trivial to silence, if you think it's important
<pitti> kirkland: not really important, just slightly confusing
<kirkland> pitti: i'll silence it in an SRU, if we get complaints.  fair enough?
<pitti> kirkland: changing it in jaunty sounds fine
<kirkland> pitti: k
<pitti> kirkland: I just wondered whether it was actually important, not mor
<pitti> e
<kirkland> pitti: k
<lool> cjwatson: Eh thanks
<pitti> zul: did you see my question about the bacula sru in bug 228693? also, is bug 227410 fixed in intrepid? (the current sru in the queue fixes it)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 228693 in bacula "[SRU] bacula-director-pgsql postinstall broken" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/228693
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 227410 in bacula "[SRU] catalog Backup fails because .my.cnf is not read" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/227410
<hwilde> Keybuk, ping
<hwilde> Keybuk, if you see this,    http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m1fa35c42
<pitti> seb128, kirkland: FYI, I opened gnome bug 558298 and will discuss it there with upstream
<ubottu> Gnome bug 558298 in general "Hide ecryptfs mounts" [Normal,Unconfirmed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558298
<seb128> pitti: thanks, that's rather a glib thing though
<pitti> seb128: oh, is it? sorry
<kirkland> pitti: cool, thanks
<seb128> pitti: gio gunixmounts.c in glib
<hwilde> do the udev rules log anywhere ?
<seb128> pitti: guess_system_internal() const char *ignore_fs[] = {
<pitti> seb128: thanks, you rock
<seb128> pitti: it's likely just adding the fstype to this table
<seb128> pitti: you're welcome
<Keybuk> hwilde: yes?
<hwilde> Keybuk, if you look at my pastebin, my udev rules are matching two things but I don't see how that's possible
<Keybuk> hwilde: there is insufficient information in your paste to determine whether or not that is correct or incorrect behaviour
<Keybuk> udevinfo -a on each device would be a good start
<hwilde> Keybuk, look closely
<Keybuk> my proximity to my screen shouldn't matter
<hwilde> it is creating two symlinks to the same ttyUSB2
<hwilde> mastermodule -> ../ttyUSB2
<hwilde> tug -> ../ttyUSB2
<Keybuk> yes?
<Keybuk> hwilde: there is insufficient information in your paste to determine whether or not that is correct or incorrect behaviour
<hwilde> but the kerneles pci bus id are different
<Keybuk> udevinfo -a on each device would be a good start
<hwilde> KERNELS=="0000:00:1d.1"
<hwilde> KERNELS=="0000:00:1d.0"
<Keybuk> udevinfo -a on each device would be a good start
<ion_> Also, udevinfo -a on each device would be a good start.
<hwilde> I have all that information if you really want it
<hwilde> the udev rules are setup right
<hwilde> it's matching two somehow
<Keybuk> I really want it
<hwilde> it's like the uhci controller bus id is flipping :/
<seb128> pitti: will you add a patch to the bug or should I? just having a trivial patch there might make easier to get an upstream comment ;-)
<pitti> seb128: doing it right now
<seb128> pitti: danke
<pitti> and testing how it works
<hwilde> here are the udevinfo -a -n for all the ttyUSBs    http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m360c9202
<hwilde> Keybuk, here are the udevinfo -a -n for all the ttyUSBs    http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m360c9202
<hwilde> Keybuk, here are the udev rules  http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m3fc26a62
<hwilde> Keybuk, here are the resulting symlinks http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m188b0e58
<hwilde> it works about 75% of the time, fails about 25% of the time
<hwilde> when it fails it is assigning multiple symlinks to ttyUSB2, which I thought would be impossible based on the udev rules KERNELS=="0000:00:1d.1"  versus KERNELS=="0000:00:1d.0"
<Keybuk> hwilde: no idea
<Keybuk> I'm not sure you can match KERNELS twice like that
<hwilde> Keybuk, http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m2a984c02
<hwilde> I think my uhci is having irq conflicts and getting reassigned bus numbers 1-4
<hwilde> usbs are freakin killin me
<hwilde> Keybuk, good we're on the same side of the split
<hwilde> Keybuk, any suggestions at all ?
<Keybuk> hwilde: file a new bug about the invalid match
<Keybuk> provide udevinfo -a and the various -q for each device
<Keybuk> and udevtest output for each one
<Keybuk> I'll look at it in a couple of weeks
<hwilde> faq
<hwilde> i'm going to fail 25% of reboots for a couple weeks
<Keybuk> you can always debug it
<Keybuk> patches more than welcome if you find it
<Keybuk> might be worth talking to udev upstream
<Keybuk> though he's just rewritten the rules matching
<Keybuk> in particular, I'm not sure you can match KERNELS twice like you're doing there
<Keybuk> I think it only takes one of the matches
<elmo> why wouldn't apport be catching something sigseving?
<hwilde> but I have to put both because the usb hubs get assigned random pci ids every reboot
<zul> pitti: yep just havent gotten around to it
<pitti> elmo: several reasons; (1) you are using current intrepid, where it's now disabled by default, (2) the affected program already has an unreported crash report pending, (3) the affected program crashed more than 3 times at a day, (4) bug
<elmo> pitti: (1) then, I guess.  can I force it?  I want to report a bug about a repeatable crasher, and although I could do it byhand, I supsect apport provides more useful information
<pitti> elmo: yes, you can enable it in /etc/default/apport (enable=1)
<pitti> elmo: and afterwards /etc/init.d/apport start
<pitti> elmo: we just generally disable it for stable releases by default, for various reasons
<tedg> bryce: Do you still have a machine that can recreate bug 285323 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 285323 in gnome-power-manager "Losing keyboard and mouse control when changing screen brightness with fn + arrow under intrepid" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/285323
<hwilde> Keybuk, http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/m2a984c02
<hwilde> the uhci keeps getting assigned different bus ids 1 through 4
<Keybuk> sure
<Keybuk> ids aren't stable
<elmo> pitti: cool, thanks, that worked
<pitti> \o/
<hwilde> Keybuk, so then I can't make udev rules off unstable ids :/
<Keybuk> no
<hwilde> Keybuk, well that pretty much ends that discussion
<Keybuk> you have to find something that uniquely identifies each device
<hwilde> why are hardware people allowed to crap out anything they want and expect the OS to work :*(
<lamont> jdstrand: you aroudn?
<jdstrand> lamont: yes
<lamont> jdstrand: thoughts on 289060?
<hwilde> Keybuk, thanks for confirming my fears that mashing the serial lines into usb was a bad idea
<jdstrand> lamont: already on my todo list to fix right after release
<bryce> tedg: yep
 * lamont notes that the comment in 249824 about not having a CVS tree is a blatant lie
 * lamont waits for git-cvsimport to finish running
<jibel> Hi, could someone please sponsor request in bug 289603 . This fixes an upgrade issue of the package from hardy to intrepid. Thanks.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289603 in sabre "Please sync sabre 0.2.4b-26 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289603
<lamont> jdstrand: if that's the right change, I'll add it to my changes, and we can just package-n-upload when we're ready
<jdstrand> lamont: I haven't tested it yet, but can and will get back to you. it certainly seems correct
<tedg> tedg: Can you try something then?  The only thing that I can figure out is that GPM swallows the key in that case, I'm curious if GDK is holding into focus in that case.
<tedg> bryce: ^^  Sorry, I was talking to myself ;)
<tedg> bryce: Basically change src/gpm-button.c:100 from GDK_FILTER_REMOVE to GDK_FILTER_CONTINUE
<lamont> sigh.  2 years into the 10 year cvs tree.  I think I'll find that patch for 249824 once I get home later tonight...
<pgraner> pitti: ping
<lamont> afk for a while then
<kees> pitti: W: GPG error: http://ddebs.ubuntu.com intrepid Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG ECDCAD72428D7C01 Ubuntu Debug Symbol Archive Automatic Signing Key <ubuntu-archive@lists.ubuntu.com>
<slangasek> superm1: anyone working on mythbuntu testing for final, specifically?
<superm1> not until tonight, but yeah
<superm1> (for jaunty we're going to be on the iso tracker website so it will be a little easier to track these things too)
<slangasek> you're already on the iso tracker for intrepid
<slangasek> so please use it, or you'll find me nagging you periodically :-)
<superm1> oh we are? i didn't think we made the cut
<superm1> yeah i'll point our guys at using that then, sorry!
<stgraber> superm1: why did you think I was asking you to give me a list of testcase the other day ? :)
<superm1> stgraber, see i thought that was all for jaunty stuff :)
<stgraber> nope, I usually do a testcase update between beta and rc, that was it :)
#ubuntu-devel 2008-10-29
<cjwatson> lool: that redirect is in place and seems to be working now; I guess the mirror just hadn't synced properly earlier
<cjwatson> (ubuntu-mobile.* -> ubuntu-cmpc.*)
<cjwatson> err umpc
<ytoox> I know this is not a support channel but I am trying to figure out why my vaio can't use the built-in microphone
<ytoox> can someone help me
<ytoox> ?
<ytoox> I am using intrepid
<persia> ytoox, You'll have much better luck in #ubuntu or #ubuntu+1
<ytoox> ok
<calc> ugh the new hp netbook has a 1024x600 screen :\
 * calc was hoping it would be like their old model
<persia> Was that 1024x768?
<persia> From what I understand, 1024x600 glass became really cheap recently, which is why so much has that resolution at 7" and 9".
<calc> persia: it used to be 1280x768
<persia> That's an unexpected resolution.  I've seen lots of 1280x800 in the shops, but the last time I saw 1280x768 was on smoe Sony subnotebooks 5 years ago.
<calc> yea it is a bit odd for res most 1280 widescreen are 1280x800
<Burgundavia> calc: wow.thatis worse than my laptop and it is bad
<Burgundavia> why do they think that tradingverticl for horizontal is a good idea?
<bryce> I heard something about that the aspect ratios are an outcome of the manufacturing process
<persia> Burgundavia, It's good for watching movies : it's the attempt to demolish the haldheld DVD player segment.
<Burgundavia> persia: yes,and not much else
<Burgundavia> my screen isnot tall enough for inkscape
<persia> Burgundavia, Well, that's partly an issue with window management, and toolkit DPI-independence, but yes.
<persia> Personally, I've gotten quite used to using 640x480 for all sorts of things over the past several years, and for me 1024x600 is a big improvement, but that's for 4-5" screens, so a different use case.
 * calc thinks persia has all the cool toys :-)
<persia> calc, Come visit.  I'll take you to a shop.  It's all retail, and most of it is subsidised if you get a 3G contract.  You can get an Eee for 100 yen at some shops.
<calc> wow
<calc> hmm i don't think getting a contract in a country i don't live would work too well :)
<persia> Then you get the low-price contract : 1000 yen a month for two years.  I suppose that's less good if you live in a country with inflation though.
<calc> yea
<calc> maybe eventually the US will catch up to Japan (maybe 50 years ;-)
<superm1> calc, see what you should have done is jumped on a Sprint SERO plan while they were still easy to get on
<superm1> if you haven't heard of them, i'd recommend you google and read a little bit about what you missed out on.  probably a better discussion for #ubuntu-offtopic though
<calc> superm1: i meant more about getting cheap netbooks (etc) with a plan
<superm1> calc, ah :)
<calc> or bandwidth in general, i can't get more than 3mbps from my telco :\
<calc> the US is just behind all around :(
<superm1> agreed
 * Chipzz doesn't get why laptop manufactures think widescreen is a good idea in the first place
<Chipzz> browsing for example is a horrible experience on widescreens imo
<Chipzz> (having your eyes make horizontal movements all the time is not very convenient)
<persia> Chipzz, I find it much more pleasant to browse on widescreens in landscape mode.  Just tell xrandr to rotate your screen to e.g. 600x1024, and you can read sensibly.
<Chipzz> (which is why both A4 and American paper both are taller than wide - which makes perfect sense)
<Chipzz> persia: that only works on a netbook though ;)
<Chipzz> laptop I'm currently working on is too big for that
<persia> Chipzz, Well, actually it works better on tablets, convertibles, MIDs, PDAs, etc.  netbooks tend to be awkward in landscape mode.
<Chipzz> I was thinking about the OLPC ;)
<persia> That's a convertible, right?
<Chipzz> not sure what you mean by convertible?
<persia> You can spin the screen, so use it in either laptop or tablet mode.
<Chipzz> right. it is, afaik
<calc> works for good desktops too, just rotate your monitor
<persia> Depends on the desktop.  Given a high-enough resolution, I'd rather look at two pages side-by-side.
<Chipzz> calc: depends on if you can physically rotate your monitor I guess :)
<persia> Chipzz, What monitor can't be rotated?
<calc> Chipzz: yea
<calc> persia: cheap ones
 * persia expects that a bit of electrical tape would fix that
<Chipzz> persia: like physically rotating, ie putting on their side :P
<calc> persia: heh
<calc> if you physically rotate a crt bad things can happen
<persia> Chipzz, Right.  The only reason I can imagine why it wouldn't work was for a CRT with a loose flyback cable.
<calc> it throws off the gun it seems (tried it once)
<calc> it worked fine when i put it back to normal
<Chipzz> calc: lol :)
<persia> calc, That's a *very* cheap housing for the gun
<calc> persia: probably so it was a computer from 1994 that i tried it on
<Chipzz> if you think about it, widescreens make very little sense. you loose vertical screen estate with title bars, menus, toolbars, status bars and panels
<calc> even some crt's were rotatable back in the day
<calc> Radius brand monitors in the US iirc
<Chipzz> if /anything/, they should be making /tall/-screens
<calc> er i mean were able to be rotated by design
<Chipzz> calc: I've seen a crt that was rotatable by design once
<Chipzz> err
<Chipzz> s/crt/lcd
<persia> calc, heh.  That's different.  I once completely furnished a house using mostly working VT100s at all angles.  They still worked, but I'm sure that wasn't a design feature.
<Chipzz> but they
<Chipzz> but they're hardly common
<calc> http://cgi.ebay.com/Radius-15-Full-Page-Pivot-Monitor-Model-0320-RAD0320_W0QQitemZ350115394192QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
<persia> Chipzz, HP makes a number of good tall flatscreens.
<persia> I've at least played with their 1600x1024.
<persia> Err, 1024x1600
<calc> i have a hp 23" 1920x1200 that can rotate
<persia> That's a lot of head bending.
<Chipzz> anyway, I run firefox in fullscreen all the time. I gain about 25% to 35% vertical screen real estate that way
<Chipzz> pretty sad actually that I have to do that
<Chipzz> hrrrrm ok, little less maybe. but still
<calc> wow it does look like now its harder to find lcd's that can rotate
<calc> it used to be just about any high end one could rotate
<calc> the monitor i have original msrp was ~ $1500
<Chipzz> that's a lot of money for a monitor
<persia> I think most of the rotating demand is shifting to the mounted sort, with the emergence of the common backmount standard.  The local monitor shops all have lots of mounts and stands on display.
<calc> Chipzz: i waited until LCDs got 'cheap' i was looking at them when they were > $5000 for 20" but couldn't afford them
<calc> Chipzz: i bought it refurb for $750
<calc> persia: ah
<calc> the new HPs can still rotate though
<calc> hmm actually they can adjust all sorts of ways it seems
 * TheMuso uses a monitor with a VESA mount stand on his desk. Gives a lot of movement, rotation, etc.
<persia> VESA mount.  That's what it's called.  Thank you.
<TheMuso> Very good for work environments, allows me to move the monitor closer when I need it, and push it back when I don't, prevents me from leaning too far forward/back etc, and keep a good typing position.
<persia> Yeah.  One of my recent customers was a bank, and they would give each new hire 9 VESA mounts and one screen : earning the other screens was part of the incentive program.
<kees> what a surprise, fedora's s-b-t/liboobs doesn't freak out with sha512
<StevenK> kees: Ours does?
<kees> StevenK: yup -- it creates new users with 3DES since it doesn't see "md5" in the PAM configs any more.
<kees> StevenK: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/system-tools-backends/+bug/287134
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287134 in system-tools-backends "users-admin sets up maximum 8 character password" [High,Confirmed]
<wgrant> Um, only High?
 * slangasek grabs the s-t-b authors by the ear and holds a perfectly good spinny wheel in front of their eyes
<kees> and I can't figure out wtf liboobs is named in fedora
<slangasek> but then, there's nothing in s-t-b that doesn't make me weep
<slangasek> is the bug fixed that will let it race-condition your users out of existence? :P
<kees> well, that's easy -- Fedora just doesn't use that library.
<slangasek> good choice
<slangasek> why are *we* using it? :)
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> slangasek: s-t-b race> yes, ages ago
<pitti> kees: argh, I just tested it half an hour before I told you...
<slangasek> pitti: that's good; this is a good reason for it to have fallen off my radar, as opposed to it still lingering somewhere
<StevenK> Morning pitti
<pitti> slangasek: was fixed in Nov 2007 (23_users_update_model.patch)
<pitti> hey StevenK
<pitti> kees: oh, I get "conflicting distribution" now; apparently the cronjob does something different than my manual building
<pitti> kees: argh, silly me; forgot to pull my changes to macaroni
<slangasek> pitti: hmm, I think the bug I'm thinking of was later than that...
<dholbach> good morning
<slangasek> ribbit
 * dholbach hugs slangasek
 * slangasek hugs dholbach froggily
<dholbach> :)
<wgrant> A frog for an RM. How unfortunate.
<Hobbsee> depends.  can it drink beer?
<Hobbsee> because if it can't, what do you pay it in?
<StevenK> The hearts of French chefs that like serving frogs legs
<slangasek> Hobbsee: greenbacks, duh
<Hobbsee> ah
<slangasek> persia, TheMuso: will there be a release announcement url on ubuntustudio.org that I can link to in the ubuntu-announce mail?
<slangasek> persia, TheMuso: hopefully something more detailed than the "it's out" blurb I see on http://ubuntustudio.org/news :-)
<slangasek> superm1: same question for you wrt mythbuntu
<superm1> slangasek, yeah there will be
<slangasek> superm1: do you have a target url that I can prepopulate in the draft here?
<superm1> slangasek, expect it at http://mythbuntu.org/8.10/release
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<slangasek> and will that page be live such that I can confirm it prior to pushing the button on the announce mail?
<pitti> pgraner: oh, "pong"
<superm1> slangasek, that depends on when that button is pushed.. we don't put the page live until all our mirrors catch up
<slangasek> hmm
<slangasek> how long does that take?
<superm1> er well at least the big ones catch up
<superm1> well we have to reroll our live disks in the morning, umenu broke on us
<superm1> alternates are fine but we won't announce until the lives are ready
<superm1> so maybe better to just leave us out of announce then for now if you are sending it out later today
<superm1> slangasek, I think i might have come across something fairly bad in testing latest standard ubuntu DVD.  would you be able to make a call on it with what should be done? (bug 290580)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290580 in oem-config "oem-config is not setting language on resultant user" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/290580
<slangasek> superm1: it's not going out later today, it's going out Thursday... :)
<slangasek> looking at the bug
<slangasek> hrm
<superm1> oh yeah its wed not thur right now
<pitti> kirkland: argh, my ~/Private dir broke
<pitti> kirkland: apparently I changed my password yesterday, and then reset /etc/shadow to the old value (same password, but different encryption, I think sha256->md5); apparently that broke ecryptfs
<pitti> kirkland: "keyctl_search: Required key not available"
<lool> morning
<dholbach> hi thekorn, lool, ara
<ara> hey dholbach, morning
<thekorn> hello dholbach
 * NCommander is doing something insane
<StevenK> Oh?
<NCommander> Yes
<NCommander> insane
<StevenK> Going to UDS?
<NCommander> Beside that
 * NCommander is debating if the kernel team will lynch or deepfry me ...
<NCommander> oh well
<liw> NCommander, oh! you're rewriting the kernel in Python too?
<liw> NCommander, should we collaborate?
<NCommander> liw, no, not python
<wgrant> PHP, with added backslashes?
<mdke> calc: pong
<rootard> Hi, is there any way to get a list of udeb packages in a repository? Packages[.gz|.bz2] does not seem to contain the info normally.
<slangasek> there's a separate Packages file under the debian-installer subdirectory
<rootard> oof, but only if you use dak I imagine :-/
<rootard> how about a way to tell if a source only produces udeb packages?
<rootard> let me rephrase: if the source is in section: debian-installer, is it gauranteed to only produce udebs?
<slangasek> that's should be a valid assumption for the Debian and Ubuntu archives
<rootard> slangasek: thank you :)
<TheMuso> slangasek: I don't have access to the site and am not involved with release notes.
<slangasek> TheMuso: ok; is there someone else you can point me to who does/is?
<TheMuso> slangasek: luisbg is doing English and a spanish translation, but that is all I know about who is doing what release notes wise.
<slangasek> luisbg: around?
<slangasek> superm1: still around?
<slangasek> superm1: evand and cjwatson are up now and looking at 290580
<MacSlow> how do I get around a bzr-error like: "Cannot lock LockDir(http://.../.bzr/branch/lock) : Transport operation not possible http does not support mkdir()"?
<MacSlow> got that for "bzr commit somefile.txt"
<pitti> MacSlow: you can't commit to http://
<pitti> MacSlow: if it's on launchpad, use bzr+ssh://
<pitti> if it's somebody else's branch, put your own branch on people.ubuntu.com or launchpad or so
<MacSlow> pitti, well ok... but I just want to commit not push.
<MacSlow> pitti, I thought a commit always works on my local branch
<pitti> MacSlow: then apparently you used "checkout" instead of "branch"
<pitti> MacSlow: use "bzr unbind", that should do
<pitti> if bzr allows "checkout" on a http:// branch, I'd call that a bug, though
<MacSlow> *sigh*
<pitti> MacSlow: unbind worked?
<pitti> bah, LP seems to be utterly slow today; I get lots of timeouts
<\sh> pitti: it's the weather ;) the fibers are depressed ,-)
<seb128> pitti: use non-edge
<geser> \sh: it's not *that* cold yet in Germany that the data packets freeze inside the internet tubes and cause clogging :)
<\sh> geser: it's raining ;) that's enough to feel depressed;)
<Treenaks> it's the fog!
<Treenaks> packets can't see where they're going
<geser> \sh: can't confirm, clear sky here
<arj> hi, does anyone know about the status of the backports of php5.2. for dapper?
<arj> as can be seen here? https://bugs.launchpad.net/dapper-backports/+bug/78771
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 78771 in dapper-backports "php5.2 backport request" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<arj> i could read THAT
<arj> ubottu: so, do you know wether this will be done in the next weeks?
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<arj> grml
<arj> ah ok
<ScottK> arj: Until someone does testing and says so in the bug, nothing will happen
<ScottK> !backports | arj
<ubottu> arj: If new updated Ubuntu packages are built for an application, then they may go into Ubuntu Backports. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports - See also !packaging
<arj> how do i test?
<arj> can I download and test the package somewhere?
<ScottK> If you read the link, it should give you some guidance on building packages to test.
<arj> ok thanks for your advice
<pitti> seb128: works much better, yes; apparenlty packets fell off the edge
<seb128> pitti: yeah, I was getting the same issue
<seb128> non-edge works correctly
<wgrant> pitti: bzr checkout on an HTTP URL makes sense if you're using it readonly.
<pitti> wgrant: hm; using "update" or "pull" isn't any difference in terms of efforts, but it's a bit more consistent for people who are used to checkouts, yes
<\sh> geser: karlsruhe, Rain, <10 Degrees C
<james_w> and http isn't always readonly
<wgrant> james_w: True... but that's rare.
<munckfish> Hi folks - who is in charge of writing up the final release notes? I need to find out how best to include (or not) notes on the PS3 version.
<cjwatson> munckfish: ubuntu-release collaboratively; you've already done the right thing by opening tasks on ubuntu-release-notes, but if you want to help further then propose text in those bug reports too
<cjwatson> munckfish: we're going through the list today
<slangasek> I've gotten some feedback to the effect that many of the PS3 notes are not regressions over hardy, so it may not make sense to release note all the issues
<munckfish> cjwatson: I've drafted quite comprehensive PS3 specific notes on psubuntu.com's wiki http://psubuntu.com/wiki/IntrepidReleaseNotes
<munckfish> cjwatson: so may only need to refer to that doc from our official notes to save space - if you prefer?
<slangasek> perhaps it makes sense to hit the highlights and refer to that doc, yes
<slangasek> not to save space, but to not information-overload the users we're trying to get to read the release notes
<munckfish> slangasek: ye exactly
<munckfish> s/ye/yep/
<cjwatson> robbiew: ^- (since I was just mentioning this in person)
<munckfish> I'll try to get the notes the tidied up asap today and leave it to you guys to cherry pick the more important issues as you like
<slangasek> munckfish: that would be wonderful
<cjwatson> munckfish: the installation stuck at 6% thing may be basically the same issue as bug 290234
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290234 in pkgsel "Intrepid: Netboot locks up at 2% installing the selected edubuntu desktop" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/290234
<cjwatson> perhaps, anyway
<cjwatson> I certainly think we could phrase that as "may seem to get stuck around this point depending on the installation mode"
<munckfish> cjwatson: ok noted
<munckfish> doko_: I've added a note on Cell development to the PS3 release notes: http://psubuntu.com/wiki/IntrepidReleaseNotes
<munckfish> I remember when I installed gcc-4.3-spu
<munckfish> It gave me the gcc-4.3-spu binary command
<munckfish> I had to install another package from universe
<munckfish> to get the symbolic link spu-gcc installed
<munckfish> I don't have my PS3 here
<munckfish> what's the name of that package in universe? gcc-spu? spu-gcc is the old Cell one right (aah confusing)
<directhex> spu-gcc: /usr/bin/spu-gcc
<pitti> Keybuk: do you see anything wrong with renaming /etc/rc0.d/S31umountnfs.sh to K31, and likewise S40umountfs to K40?
<pitti> kees: the scripts only do stuff on "stop", so this looks like a packaging bug at first sight
<pitti> but there might be something more delicate
<pitti> Keybuk: (this is bug 42121, recently reopened)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 42121 in sysvinit "Symlinks for umountnfs / sendsigs wrong: hang on shutdown / reboot" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/42121
<pitti> kees: sorry, that was for Keybuk
<directhex> pitti, so THAT'S to blame for my 3 minute shutdown time?
<pitti> shmaybe
<slangasek> pitti: rc0 and rc6 are special, S scripts are called with "stop" always in those runlevels and the difference between S and K is solely one of ordering
<pitti> slangasek: oh, ok; so it's not that then
<slangasek> pitti: and the ordering is very important for these scripts, though I don't think the current ordering is right either (c.f. bug reports against samba, about timeouts on reboot because the network goes away before umountnfs is called
<slangasek> )
<Koon> yes, bug 211631
<directhex> slangasek, yeah, that's the bunny. quite annoying
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 211631 in wpasupplicant "CIFS/SMBFS shares not unmounted before network is shut down" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/211631
<slangasek> yes
<pitti> hm, but then it should be correct; it first calls umountnfs, then networking, then umountfs
<slangasek> it's also a bug on the samba side; by that point the routing table should be down and it shouldn't take a timeout to tell that the server is gone
<slangasek> pitti: NetworkManager :P
<munckfish> directhex: thx I think it's more confusing than that actually, I just checked the gcc-defaults package and found my answer - the spu-gcc package is from the old Cell SDK, but gcc-spu package is a meta package which depends on gcc-4.3-spu and provides the /usr/bin/spu-gcc symlinks .... umm I think ;)
<pitti> slangasek: oh, right
<directhex> handy
<slangasek> pitti: previously, dhcdbd, though this part is obsolete now; but I think we're still getting the ordering wrong with NM in the shutdown case
<pitti> slangasek: thanks muchly for the heads-up
<slangasek> sure
<directhex> when does networkmanager drop connections?
<slangasek> possibly as soon as the desktop goes away
<directhex> urgh
<slangasek> I'm not sure, though
<slangasek> hrm, ufw's shutdown script seems to be a bit earlier in the sequence than it ought
<slangasek> directhex: if it doesn't die earlier, I'm pretty sure S20sendsigs kills it...
<slangasek> which is before S31umountnfs.sh
<directhex> slangasek, s' not ideal.
<directhex> slangasek, perhaps the "easy" solution is fixing cifsmount et al so they can unmount immediately, even if connection is lost? at least make it a -o flag?
<directhex> saves worrying about "what is killed when"
<slangasek> directhex: it's the kernel driver that needs to be fixed
<doko_> munckfish: gcc-spu
<slangasek> and yes, this is a bug
<directhex> sigh. kerneltastic
<slangasek> but having the network die before umountnfs is also a bug, it could cause data loss
<directhex> well, yeah
<munckfish> doko_: thx
<directhex> and depending on what's mounted where, it may be impossible to fix unless we can guarantee the network will be up when umount is called
<ogra> if we'd default to sync mount nfs that wouldnt be a prob :)
<slangasek> ogra: a) there are other network filesystems, b) <bleurgh>
<ogra> heh
<slangasek> directhex: it's not possible to completely eliminate the risk of losing uncommitted data when the network goes unaway unexpectedly, just like it's not possible to eliminate the same risk of losing data that hasn't been flushed to disk yet when the power is cut; but issues that cause such data to be lost *as a matter of course* on shutdown are a bug :)
<directhex> hm, no lustre support in umountnfs.sh? bah!
<elkbuntu> shani, could you please join me in #ubuntu-ops
<shani> sure elkbuntu
<jdstrand> slangasek: hi. saw your comment on ufw and shutdown order. I remember initially I had it not do anything on shutdown, but apparently for 0.12 I was talked into having it run a shutdown script. K39 seemed reasonable for hardy, but now there appears to have been some initscript shuffling :/
<slangasek> jdstrand: K39 has always been earlier than the network itself is shut down
<jdstrand> slangasek: yes, that wasn't the part I was thinking of
<jdstrand> slangasek: I've never wanted to run 'stop'-- can you think of a reason why I should run 'stop' at all?
<pitti> jdstrand: what does it actually need a shutdown script for?
<pitti> jdstrand: heh
<jdstrand> my notes are not illuminating
<jdstrand> postinst: update-rc.d to stop the firewall in runlevels 0, 1 and 6
<slangasek> jdstrand: I can think of reasons that an admin would want to run it by hand
<jdstrand> ok, dude, but *why*?
<slangasek> er
<slangasek> debugging?
<jdstrand> slangasek: that 'dude' was a 'dude' to me :P
<slangasek> oh
<slangasek> ok. :)
<jdstrand> slangasek: I want 'stop' as part of the initscript, I just don't want in the shutdown process
<slangasek> that makes sense to me
<jdstrand> slangasek: do you think that removing the link in an SRU is appropriate?
<slangasek> at the very least, if it's in the shutdown process it needs to be later
<slangasek> I think it would be; I'll take a second opinion from pitti on that
<pitti> jdstrand: yes, having a shutdown script in rc1.d makes sense, but not in 0 or 6
<pitti> jdstrand: SRU> only if it can be shown to actually break stuff
<jdstrand> yeah, I was just thinking 1 was good
<pitti> jdstrand: SRU'ing it "just because", or for getting an 0.1 second shutdown speed improvement is not enough
<jdstrand> heh, I think you mean s/break/not break/ :P
<pitti> jdstrand: no, I did mean "break"
<slangasek> pitti: it's not to get a speed improvement, it's to avoid dropping the firewall before the network services have terminated
<jdstrand> right
<pitti> jdstrand: if shutting it down early causes bugs like hanging network connections, an SRU is okay (since the preinst code isn't particularly difficulat, and has lots of prior art)
<pitti> oh, I see, K39ufw
<pitti> jdstrand: shutting down ufw will go to an all-REJECT state then, not to an all-ACCEPT? (as is the default in Linux)
<jdstrand> pitti: all-ACCEPT
<jdstrand> so it should never have broken network connections
<pitti> jdstrand: ah, so it's not about cutting connections, it's for providing full firewall coverage even during shutdown
<jdstrand> well, it does flush...
<jdstrand> pitti: exeactly
<jdstrand> exactly
<pitti> oh, it -F/-X'es, thus potentially breaking masquerading or so, but that shouldn't be an issue during shutdown either
<pitti> since 2 seconds later the machine is down anywa
<jdstrand> pitti: have you revised your opinion based on the 'full firewall coverage even during shutdown' or is this strictly jaunty material?
<pitti> jdstrand: it's a corner case, but it'd be enough to convince me to accept it
<slangasek> pitti, jdstrand: eh, -F -X -- it doesn't do that on the nat table, does it?
<pitti> jdstrand: nat> oh, right
<pitti> jdstrand: but if we fix it, we shuold also move rc1.d/K39ufw to something like S80ufw (or drop rc1.d, too)
<pitti> in practice it makes little difference, I think, since in single mode there aren't any network services running
<jdstrand> slangasek: -F with no args, so all the chains
<Keybuk> pitti: err, it would not be a change I would make in intrepid ;)
<slangasek> ah
<slangasek> jdstrand: that sounds like something that ufw shouldn't be doing :P
<pitti> Keybuk: you mean killing the ufw rc.d links?
<Keybuk> pitti: the umountnfs thing
<pitti> Keybuk: ah, no, we settled that already (it's not a bug in the rc symlinks, but rather NetworkManager-ish
<Keybuk> when in doubt, blame NM
<slangasek> jdstrand: i.e., I don't think ufw init scripts should ever be touching any chains other than its own; I would probably be quite upset if I had run into this by accident on a live system instead of finding out from you in conversation...
<jdstrand> slangasek: right-- actually I mispoke
<slangasek> oh
<slangasek> phew :-)
<jdstrand> slangasek: it does do -F without args, but -F does not clear the nat table
<pitti> bryce, tjaalton: random question; intrepid-created xorg.conf looks purely boilerplate, just identifiers and no options; why do we still create one in the first place?
<jdstrand> slangasek: we had the conversation before, and are in agreement
<jdstrand> slangasek: I just forgot about -F without args for a moment
<slangasek> jdstrand: ok, so you agree it's a bug?  Need a bug report?
<jdstrand> slangasek: no, I agree with your philosophy on ufw touching things it shouldn't. it doesn't as implemented
<slangasek> jdstrand: if -F clears all chains in the default table, that means it clears any user-defined chains as well, though?
<jdstrand> slangasek: ok, that would be a bug, if you have you're own chains. I was speaking of -t nat
<slangasek> right, I was speaking more generally - though I'm glad that the nat table is safe
<jdstrand> slangasek: though, I'm not sure it is sane to clear some stuff from the default table, and not others, so maybe we are not in complete agreement here
<jdstrand> I can envision some chains that it'd be fine, but others, perhaps not
<slangasek> I think clearing any chains that weren't created by ufw itself is the wrong model
<slangasek> it doesn't matter what's in those chains - they should be off-limits
<jdstrand> slangasek: well, part of my TODO list in jaunty is reworking the initscript stuff, so I've added this to my todo list. we can talk about it another time
<sistpoty|work> pitti: iirc there are some corner cases (e.g. running inside kvm) that get optoins set, but I'd need to look at dexconf to be certain though
<slangasek> jdstrand: ok
<tjaalton> pitti: might be dropped for jaunty. it wasn't really considered for intrepid yet
<pitti> tjaalton, sistpoty|work: ah, so it's just dexconf always writing out a skeleton, even if it doesn't have anything to configure?
<tjaalton> pitti: yes, those corner-cases should be dealt also in the postinst if there would be no xorg.conf by default
<kagou> Hi
<kagou> who is in charge of building iso ?
<ogra> pitti, for me the resolution applet still adds the virtual option if i run in two display mode with a merged screen
<pitti> ogra: yes, that's fine; but python-xkit should cope and just create one if there isn't one
<ogra> pitti, and i think that virtual thing is still needed ... which means you need an xorg,.conf
<ogra> right
<slangasek> kagou: I am; is something wrong?
<kagou> no non slangasek,
<asac> mvo: didnt we fix 240736 ?
<robbiew> bryce:  working on release notes and was wondering if you could write one for bug #290156: ""Display out of range" after upgrade to Intrepid"
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290156 in xorg-server ""Display out of range" after upgrade to Intrepid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/290156
<kirkland> pitti: hmm, let me grab a coffee and debug this
<jdong> Are the final images spun yet? I've got three systems here with 100mbit connections that I can enslave towards seeding.
<joaopinto> can someone explain me the latest change on the kernel related to the atheros driver ? I am using the current build cd, the live cd properly configured my ath0 device, the installed system does not
<joaopinto> is the livecd kernel/modules expected to be different from the target install ?
<kirkland> pitti: oh, way, you manually munged /etc/shadow?  if so, that would definitely break matters
<kirkland> pitti: the pam_ecryptfs.so module should be in the common-password stack, and when called as part of running "passwd", should handle matters for you
<kirkland> pitti: you can manually recover by running ecryptfs-rewrap-passphrase
<kirkland> pitti: or individually running ecryptfs-unwrap-passphrase and ecryptfs-wrap-passphrase
<mdz> anyone suffering from Launchpad slowness and timeouts on bug pages, visit https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/malone/+bug/290668 and disable edge redirection as a workaround
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290668 in malone "Bug page timing out; suspect slow query on ValidPersonCache" [High,In progress]
<seb128> mdz: edge timeout a lot today
<mdz> joaopinto: they are identical
<seb128> mdz: non-edge works correctly
<mdz> seb128: right, that's what I've put in the bug now
<seb128> mdz: I misread what you wrote as a question but that was a suggestion so ignore my comment ;-)
<cjwatson> jdong: you should know by now that we don't answer that kind of question :-) Feel free to seed if you have capacity but it is always possible that we'll have to respin
<joaopinto> mdz, any idea why I am getting an working ath0 device on the livecd, and no device in an installed system ?
<mdz> joaopinto: check that the module is getting loaded, read dmesg
<joaopinto> I have also experienced bug 287747, but I did a kernel reinstall
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287747 in ubiquity "Installing into an existing / partition will result in a broken kernel" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287747
<joaopinto> I am going to remove the module backports, and check the livecd lsmod vs the install lsmod
<cjwatson> joaopinto: we'd like to get your installer logs
<cjwatson> joaopinto: /var/log/installer/syslog and /var/log/installer/debug
<cjwatson> (after installation)
<mdz> joaopinto: also ls -l /boot
<mdz> joaopinto: (regarding 287747)
<joaopinto> hum, so far I did an chroot, apt-get remove/install to the kernel, and installed the backport-modules
<joaopinto> cjwatson, mdz: Done
<tvakah> right so, cross compiling in ubuntu, how: need to compile a package for an amd64 server on my intel workstation
<joaopinto> I also had this issue with the atheros during the latest kernel upgrade in hardy, but I would prefer to go for ndiswrapper this time, since I had a working configuration without it for a couple of months
<joaopinto> I mean, not to go
<directhex> tvakah, define "intel workstation"
<tvakah> directhex, core duo... I know full well that I need to cross compile, I just need to discover what the mystical "ubuntu way" of doing so is ;)
<directhex> tvakah, core or core 2?
<ogra> sudo debootstrap --arch amd64 intrepid ./chroot-amd64 && sudo chroot ./chroot-amd64
<tvakah> grep model.name /proc/cpuinfo
<tvakah> model name      : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU          6420  @ 2.13GHz
<tvakah> model name      : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU          6420  @ 2.13GHz
<tvakah> happy directhex
<tvakah> ogra, ahha thanks
<directhex> tvakah, but you're running a 32-bit kernel? why?
<tvakah> directhex, read my openning question thoroughly then get back to me
<ogra> note that you need to install all the compiler stuff, pbuilder or whatever you want to use ...
<tvakah> ogra, righto, should I mess with apt-cross or dpkg-cross? or just use the chroot?
<ogra> just the chroot
<directhex> ogra, and he's not going to have trouble chrooting into a 64-bit chroot on a 32-bit kernel?
<cjwatson> joaopinto: I also need /boot/grub/menu.lst and /var/run/grub/menu.lst, please - if possible before upgrade although I realise that this may be tricky and after upgrade might be good enough
<ogra> directhex, i wouldnt think so ...
<mdz> Oct 29 12:21:59 ubuntu ubiquity: Internal Error: Could not find image (/boot/vmlinuz-2.6.27-7-generic)
<directhex> tvakah, nothing about your initial question adequately answers the question i just asked. fr'example, lots of people don't know that core2 and amd64 are the same arch and run the same apps, so there's no need to cross-compile anything. unless you're running a 32-bit os on a 64-bit intel chip for some reason
<tvakah> directhex, so core2 is a 64 bit architecture? interesting, but even if I did end up relading a 64 bit system on my workstation, I'd still like to know how to cross compile for another arch so that I can build a package for say a server running sparc or anything else ;)
<tvakah> reloading*
<ogra> well, sparc is different :)
<directhex> tvakah, well, that's the thing. i think ogra is wrong about being able to run a 64-bit chroot with a 32-bit kernel (unless things have changed a lot recently), but the reverse is very easy
<ogra> amd64 and lpia should easily be doable in a chroot
<joaopinto> cjwatson, it doesn't worth much now, I have manually removed the older kernel entries after reinstalling the proper kernel package
<ogra> unless you want to play with kernel stuff
<tvakah> all I want to do is recopmile openssh-server with the hpn patch so that people don't notice a huge slowdown now that this server isn't running freebsd ;)
<ogra> directhex, for package building and compiling a chroot is totally fine
<directhex> tvakah, core 2, i7, pentium-d, pentium dual core, some pentium 4, and all modern xeon and celeron chips, are amd64
<joaopinto> the version part of the description was changed on the menu.lst, but not the target kernel
<directhex> ogra, how is 64-bit gcc gonna get a 64-bit memory address on a 32-bit kernel?
<ogra> directhex, no idea, but i never had probs with amd64 package builds in chroots on 32bit hosts
<james_w> does apport do something obvious when it retraces something that has a stacktrace that is the same as the one on a bug marked Fix-Released?
<james_w> i.e. if the bug wasn't fixed, or it regressed?
<ogra> i also know the kernel we use in 32 and 64bit is identical just wont use the 64bit stuff on a 32bit system
<ogra> both arches use the same -generic kernel since some releases
<directhex> the name is the same
<directhex> the source is the same
<ogra> right
<directhex> the binary is not.
<ogra> binary isnt indeed
<joaopinto> mdz, what info should I attach for the atheros card issue, a full dmesg and lsmod should be sufficient ?
<mdz> joaopinto: for that one, run "ubuntu-bug linux" on the affected system
<mdz> joaopinto: in general, you should always try to report bugs using "ubuntu-bug <package>" as this will attach much of the necessary information
<directhex> 64-bit kernels can run 32-bit code thanks to CONFIG_IA32_EMULATION=y
<directhex> there's no reverse equiv
<ogra> well, feel free to test it and prove me wrong :)
 * ogra has to go back to image testing
<joaopinto> hum, the live cd is using ath_pci
<ogra> then the installed system should do the same unless you install linux-backports-modules
<directhex> ogra, i don't have any systems with 64-bit processors and 32-bit kernels.
<ogra> directhex, well, i wasnt talking about 64bit processors :)
<ogra> just about a 64bit chroot on a 32bit host
<directhex> 100% not happening
<directhex> "W: Failure trying to run: chroot /tmp/blart mount -t proc proc /proc"
<directhex> oh look, a 32-bit chip doesn't understand 64-bit mount. shocked be i!
<joaopinto> ogra, it's not, ath_pci is not loaded in the installed system
<ogra> joaopinto, hmm, does linux-restricted-modules get installed ?
<joaopinto> yes
<ogra> weird, then ath_pci should be used
<joaopinto> I have some ath5k related messages on the log
<ogra> joaopinto, which iso is that (what day did you pull it)
<joaopinto> Oct 28
<ogra> hmm, bad
<ogra> that shouldnt use ath5k at all afaik
<joaopinto> but I don't get any wifi device available, unlike when I install the backports module
<joaopinto> which gives me a non working device :P
<ogra> well, ath5k interferes with ath_pci
<joaopinto> I am most confused about the different behavior between the livecd session and the installed system
<ogra> yes, that shouldnt happen
<ogra> i'm n the middle of a umpc image test on a atheros device here
<ogra> lets see how that behaves after install
<joaopinto> hum, I am getting a linux-backports-modules warning
<ogra> directhex, so i was apparently wrong :)
<joaopinto> is ath_pci provided by the -restricted package ?
<ogra> yes
<ogra> its part of madwifi
<joaopinto> I am getting module not found on modprobe -v
<ogra> on the installed system i guess
<joaopinto> right
<joaopinto> hum, maybe it's related to my initial kernel issue, and I need to reinstall the -restricted also
<ogra> how did you install your kernel ? using the linux metapackage ?
<ogra> or linux-generic
<joaopinto> linux-image-blah-generic
<ogra> ah
<ogra> you shoudl use linux-generic ;)
<joaopinto> I had to reinstall it, because of 287747
<cjwatson> joaopinto: it should only be the actual vmlinuz image itself that's missing
<cjwatson> joaopinto: thanks for this, I think you win the dubious honour of triggering a last-minute respin ;-)
<ogra> heh
<joaopinto> cjwatson, well, uname -a states I am using 2.6.27-7
<joaopinto> cjwatson, well I have reported this on on RC-1 :P
<cjwatson> (it's not RC-1, it's just RC)
<cjwatson> I know, it's unfortunate that we didn't manage to reproduce it then
<joaopinto> RC-1 = RC - 1 day :P
<cjwatson> ah
<cjwatson> and you did say you couldn't help with any further information in your initial report which made it a bit less appealing to diagnose once we had failed to reproduce it ourselves :)
<cjwatson> anyway, I have a fix in progress
<joaopinto> it would be great to have it fixed on final, I would like to suggest some people to upgrade without formatting ;)
<cjwatson> yes
<joaopinto> but not distupgrade :P
<cjwatson> of course update-manager is our recommended approach
<joaopinto> It's my "not recommended", not based on self experience, but on reports from previous upgrades
<ogra> ugh
<cjwatson> joaopinto: you can tell that the approach you're planning on recommending people is not as reliable and less well-tested by the fact that it has been broken since mid-July without us noticing
<cjwatson> joaopinto: so, even though we plan to fix this, I strongly suggest that you reconsider
<joaopinto> cjwatson, there are too many untested conditions on the upgrade path, despite your best effort, at least for power users, which play too much with their configs and are capable of the most unlikely scenarios :P
<ogra> thats like in #ubuntu-de it seems to be the standard procedure to tell people to purge network-manager right after install because they heard it would be bad
<ogra> thats one of the standard advises there
<cjwatson> joaopinto: you are recommending people a *totally* untested path; and update-manager is in fact increasingly well-tested over time
<cjwatson> joaopinto: so obviously you can do what you like, but don't expect the Ubuntu team to stand behind you
<joaopinto> cjwatson, well based on this problems I am not going to recommended the /home preservation for this release yet
<cjwatson> joaopinto: it would be much more productive if you worked with us to help improve the upgrade path, which is generally perfectly achievable by high-quality packaging
<cjwatson> it harms us all when people stick their heads in the sand and say it can't be done
<cjwatson> because, in fact, it can
<ogra> ... and is done by a major amount of people since mutiple releases
<davmor2> superm1: Ping
<mvo> joaopinto: given that update-manager will not touch your /home but will preserve your package selections and config in /etc you may well recommend people using it, if it fails, you can still go the install with preserving home without losing any (but time of course). however if the update works (which is what we expect) then its usually quicker and less wokr
<joaopinto> also I have some other concerns to not recommend dist-upgrade, users which are lazy to proceed as instructed and keep packages which may be problematic
<cjwatson> dist-upgrade != update-manager
<joaopinto> I understand that, update-manager has a more complex upgrade logic, I like to call it dist-upgrade ;)
<cjwatson> please don't, it's confusing
<cjwatson> both for us and for users who know what apt-get dist-upgrade is
<joaopinto>  atheros fixed, the -restrcited modules were not properly installed, to the initial install problem
<joaopinto> due to
<cjwatson> perhaps the initramfs wasn't properly generated
<cjwatson> or something else due to the linux-image-* postinst failing
<cjwatson> the actual files look like they should have been copied, from your logs and from the code bug
<pitti> kirkland: right, I figured as much; I just wondered why ecryptfs-rewrap-passphrase needs the passwords on the command line; that's eww (.bash_history and all that)
<seb128> pitti: could you look at #276745?
<kirkland> pitti: yeah, i fixed that upstream
<kirkland> pitti: they take them in on stdin
<kirkland> pitti: we can sru that if you like, at some point
<kirkland> pitti: actually, ecryptfs-add-passphrase and ecryptfs-wrap-passphrase can take that pwd in on stdin, in Intrepid
<kirkland> pitti: write a 3 line bash script
<kirkland> pitti: i plan to make those interactive, too, at some point
<joaopinto> I am unable to login into my gnome session, with a clean home dir I have no problems, where should I look into, besides .xsession-errors ?
<joaopinto> I see some strange artifacts which hints to the graphic driver/screen resolution config
<seb128> joaopinto: could you describe what happens when you try to log in your session?
<mvo> could someone with a intel i945 video card please try some video playback with compiz? (bug #264368)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 264368 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "totem crashes when compiz is enabled" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/264368
<joaopinto> seb128, I get some seconds of balck with green, like attempting to use the wrong driver/resolution, then it returns to gdm
<joaopinto> meanwhile I decided to remove compiz, which did not help
<seb128> mvo: I've a intel 965 which works correctly
<lhoersten> I'm having issues with x not getting x events from my mouse after a certain amount of activity. what package should I report this to?
<mvo> seb128: yeah, me too
<joaopinto> also, after a login attempt, using CTRL-ALT-F1 will drop me into what looks a broken graphical session
<joaopinto> with a clean boot, no login attempts, it behaves correctly
<seb128> joaopinto: do you have a monitors.xml in .local?
<seb128> joaopinto: .config rather
<joaopinto> seb128, is that the screen resolution config file ?
<seb128> correct
<seb128> could be that your driver doesn't like the xrandr settings applied or something
<joaopinto> ok, rebooting and checking
<joaopinto> CTRL-ALT-F1 hanged the system
<joaopinto> seb128, I do not  :\
<seb128> joaopinto: you looked in the .config directory right?
<joaopinto> I did a find $HOME -name "monitors*"
<joaopinto> manually moving my data/settings to a new home dir will be painfull
<seb128> there is no need to move your datas, etc just figure what is broken
<joaopinto> well, I don't have much experience on this kind of problem, I would need to dig up all the scripts from gdm until gnome starts
<joaopinto> that is my primary workstation, I will not have the enough time :\
<seb128> joaopinto: try starting a failsafe session
<joaopinto> seb128, tried it already, no improvement
<seb128> joaopinto: look to .xsession-errors after getting the issue
<joaopinto> it reports some warnings about compiz and xgl
<seb128> that's not likely the issue
<sistpoty|work> lhoersten: I assume xserver-xorg-input-mouse would be best
<seb128> is compiz working for your other user?
<joaopinto> apart from the screen resolution, are there any driver specific options that can be set by users ?
<seb128> no
<joaopinto> hum, didn't tried, but meanwhile I have removed the compiz package
<joaopinto> rescue mode, dbus start, hal start, su - user; startx, works fine
<lhoersten> sistpoty|work: thanks
<lhoersten> sistpoty|work: bugs can't be added to virtual packages
<pitti> kirkland: hm, bug 276745 might be for you
<unimatrix9> hello there you all
<belendax> when will intrebid ibex be released?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 276745 in gdm "can't login withough manually modprobing ecryptfs" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/276745
<unimatrix9> i know you are very busy
<unimatrix9> is it known that synaptic has an bug, it cannot search as it should do...is this an known bug?
<unimatrix9> just found out now, so there is little time for fix,,,
<kirkland> pitti: thanks for the heads up...  unfortunately, i don't have a fingerprint reader, so i cannot test this usecase
<unimatrix9> aptitude does work when searching for packages, but a search for the same package with synaptic show nothing
<sistpoty|work> lhoersten: hm... xserver-xorg-input-mouse is no virtual package though *shrug*
<pitti> kirkland: the log has some ecryptfs errors (I don't think it's related to the fprint reader)
<lhoersten> sistpoty|work: ah your right. my bad
 * kirkland looking
<mvo> unimatrix9: could you please try to open a termianl and run "sudo update-apt-xapian-index" and see if that fixes it?
<lhoersten> sistpoty|work: it just had no previous bugs submitted against it
<sistpoty|work> heh
<unimatrix9> i am on 8.04 right now, so i cant test
<joaopinto> seb128, somehow it's related to gdm: rescude mode, dbus start, hal start, gdm start, and I am experiencing the problem
<seb128> weird
<sistpoty|work> lhoersten: not too sure if you're using the right package then, as it does have some bugs against it: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-input-mouse/+bugs
<lhoersten> sistpoty|work: this is 8.10
<unimatrix9> mvo, but from your reaction i assume its known?
<lhoersten> sistpoty|work: i was looking at 8.10->xserver-xorg-input-mouse
<mvo> unimatrix9: it sounds faimilar, however I currently don't know what is causing it
<ogra> gah, console setup failing and then clicking "go on with install anyway" results in a messy python traceback error at the end of install
<belendax> dingdangdong: boro biroon
<kirkland> pitti: might be a duplicate of #255799
<kirkland> pitti: i posed a couple of questions to the reporter
<dingdangdong> belendax: what?
<dingdangdong> :P
<pitti> kirkland: thanks
<kirkland> pitti: no prob ;-)
<belendax> yeki ino bendaze biroon
<joaopinto> I see a pulseaudio warning on dmesg, I don't get that warning on my desktop system, does gdm interface with pulseaudio to setup the user's pulseaudio services ?
<belendax> ey baba!
<joaopinto> not that I see a relation between pulseaudio and the graphical settings :P
<unimatrix9> mvo
<unimatrix9> sorry i was away from computer for a moment
<unimatrix9> i am downloading daily build of 28 oktober right now
<unimatrix9> and will test your command when i got the build , see if it helps
<unimatrix9> of not i will report back in to see if any one can work at it
<unimatrix9> its an bug in synaptic, search does not show up good results of packages
<unimatrix9> i tested it yesterday on an other machine, same result
<unimatrix9> any one running the daily build right now?
<pgquiles> has anyone tried to to videochat with Empathy in Intrepid RC? I've tried in 4 different machines, both in LAN and through Internet, and it does not work (at least if using Jabber accounts)
<belendax> teste farsi!
<belendax> teste farsi nevisi 2!
<cjwatson> belendax: please take this elsewhere
<belendax> cjwatson: ok
<unimatrix9> cjwatson, do you run the daily build? 8.10 ?
<cjwatson> unimatrix9: this isn't a chat channel
<cjwatson> I am running a fully updated 8.10 but I am also extremely busy right now
<unimatrix9> chat, i am trying to track down a bug
<cjwatson> ok, but please don't just ask whoever happens to say something
<unimatrix9> ok  | np
<ogra> cjwatson, does ubiquity rely on /etc/default/console-setup to be in the livefs before starting the install ?
<cjwatson> I just posted on the bug asking for more information
<ogra> i just hit bug 290760 and syslog looks like /etc/default/console-setup is required beforehand
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290760 in ubiquity ""ConsoleSetup failed with exit code 10. ...." in ubiquity ubuntu-mid, german install trying to select an us keyboard" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/290760
<ogra> ah, k
<cjwatson> no, it doesn't
 * ogra re-runs
<cjwatson> in fact, ubiquity actually moves /etc/default/console-setup aside before it starts up
<ogra> Oct 29 15:33:39 ubuntu ubiquity: cp:
<ogra> Oct 29 15:33:39 ubuntu ubiquity: cannot stat `/etc/default/console-setup'
<ogra> that made me wonder
<cjwatson> the log message you're referring to is because the first run of console-setup (much earlier) fails, and therefore doesn't *generate* /etc/default/console-setup for use by the later run
<ogra> ah
<cjwatson> sort of unfortunate it doesn't fail the install earlier
<ogra> well, thats likely the point where i get the popup message
<ogra> anyway, restarting install
<ogra> cjwatson, do i need --automatic as well ? i see the .desktop file execs it like that
<ogra> --automatic --desktop %k gtk_ui to be precise
<persia> ogra, If you're testing MID, you want --automatic
<ogra> persia, yes, calling it with all options plus --desbug now
<ogra> i hipe it doesnt work now because i had a wireless kbd attached inbetween (removed again now)
<ogra> ah, same error pops up ... good
<ogra> oh, wow
<ogra> new error this time from partman
<ogra> this seems messed up
<ogra> cant get to partitioning
<ogra> same with "Try again"
<persia> ogra, Reboot.
<ogra> persia, hmm
<ogra> i wanted to keep the same state
<ogra> but well
 * ogra reboots
<persia> You're still running the last partman-server.  If you can't reproduce with the same procedure, it's hard to understand anyway.
<ogra> ah, right
<persia> (especially with --automatic, because it won't ask the questions this time)
<ogra> makes sense
<robbiew> bryce: ping
<cjwatson> mvo: does your fix for bug 277285 address bug 289611, as suggested?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 277285 in update-manager "kubuntu hardy -> ibex via upgrade-manager fails on 'kubuntu-kde4-desktop'" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/277285
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289611 in kdebase-workspace "Hardy KDE 4 remix to Intrepid is incomplete" [Undecided,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289611
<cjwatson> (I don't have a problem with adding a release notes item as well)
<unimatrix9> mvo are you there?
<unimatrix9> bug of synaptic , when you search for an package is does not give the proper results , in quick search as well as normal search
<unimatrix9> mvo pointed out to use sudo update-apt-xapian-index
<unimatrix9> wich does fix the bug !
<bryce> hi robbiew
<robbiew> hi
<ogra> unimatrix9, he's taking a break, but will surely read the backlog
<unimatrix9> thank you very much
<robbiew> did you get my email about the release notes?
<robbiew> bryce: ?^
<bryce> robbiew: yep I'll take a look
<robbiew> thanks!
<unimatrix9> mvo : i tested on daily build 8.10 28 october version.
<ogra> cjwatson, --debug output attached to 290760
<bryce> robbiew: hmm, looking at the other issues listed in the release notes, I'm not sure that 290156 qualifies for inclusion - as far as we know at this point, that bug affects only a single monitor model-number, and the workaround is kind of complicated to explain
<bryce> robbiew: I can add it in, but am just concerned it might be too minor of an issue
<ogra> debconf (developer): --> 10 debian-installer/keymap doesn't exist
<ogra> hmm
<robbiew> bryce:
<robbiew> right
<robbiew> good point
<bryce> robbiew: but what I could do is add it to our general Xorg troubleshooting page
<robbiew> ok...let me confer with cjwatson, but I think that is acceptable
<robbiew> cjwatson: ?^
<cjwatson> ogra: will look later
<cjwatson> robbiew: I'm OK with it being a general troubleshooting item if bryce thinks that makes sense, although possibly bryce and ScottK should duke it out directly
<robbiew> cjwatson: right
<robbiew> ScottK: ping
<ScottK> robbiew: I'm OK either way.  It was extremely painful for me to get through it the first time and I want to make sure it's documented somewhere that people will find it.
<ScottK> Up to bryce where that is, since he'll get stuck with the questions.
<robbiew> heh...ok
<robbiew> thanks
<mvo> cjwatson: I think the latest update-manager changes should deal with this situation, it will make sure kubuntu-desktop is installed and transition kubuntu-kde4-desktop to kubuntu-desktop. there might be corner cases, but a broad note should not be necessary (unless I missi something, but nothing in the bugreport indicates it)
<bryce> ScottK, ok, I'm going to draft up X/Troubleshooting/Resolution and include this workaround there.
<mvo> apachelogger: re bug #289961 - do you have a upgrade log avaialble were the dection failed?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289961 in openoffice.org "Dic'OOooo- can't install new dictionnaries (dup-of: 149586)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289961
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 149586 in compiz "[upstream] [hardy] openoffice compiz bug - Wizards' first dialogs far too small (unusable)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/149586
<robbiew> thanks bryce
<cjwatson> mvo: ok, perhaps you could take ownership of that bug and sort it out
<apachelogger> mvo: are you sure you mean that bug?
<mvo> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/289611
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289611 in update-manager "Hardy KDE 4 remix to Intrepid is incomplete" [Undecided,New]
<mvo> cjwatson: will do
<apachelogger> mvo: I didn't try to reproduce since the cause is pretty obvious, maybe the report still has one around
<apachelogger> otherwise I can try to trigger the issue
<mvo> apachelogger: its not obvious for me :) (but I'm not too familiar with kde4) - so any help/advice/information is helpful for me to figure out more
<apachelogger> mvo: well, since you uploaded a possible fix, I would just assume that the bug actually appeared some days before it was reported
 * mvo nods
<apachelogger> if this was not the case update-manager did screw up :P
<cjwatson> mvo: I think a release note mightn't hurt in case people upgrade manually, of course (if that wasn't clear)
<mvo> cjwatson: good point, I add it
<moquist> kees: I've lost track. Is there still work needed on moodle? testing, maybe?
<asomething> Hey all, I've got an upload sitting in intrepid-proposed waiting (bug 274844) but now a new bug has been filed for the same package with an easy but important fix (bug 290769). what's the process for something like this? are uploads in intrepid-proposed published yet or just in a queue? show i prepared a new upload with the same revision number or take care of it with a separate upload?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 274844 in transmission "transmission crashed with SIGSEGV in g_markup_escape_text()" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/274844
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290769 in transmission "desktop file lacks x-ubuntu-gettext-domain" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/290769
<cjwatson> asomething: they're just in a queue
<kees> moquist: I managed to find some Proofs-of-Concept and was able to test the update already.
<cjwatson> asomething: upload with an incremented version number, please
<kees> moquist: additional testing would be great too, of course.  :)
<moquist> kees: OK; thx.
<asomething> cjwatson: thanks
<asomething> cjwatson: is the queue publicly available? my sponsor mentioned (pitti) he made a few modifications to my upload and i don't want to accidentally drop them
<pitti> asomething: I'd actually prefer if I'd reject that upload, and we do another upload wit that additional fix
<pitti> asomething: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=
<asomething> pitti: didn't see you were around, thanks
<asomething> pitti: should i prepare something or do you want to take care of it?
<kagou> i can't build a french iso for intrepid. I use last daily-live 8.10, I uncompress it and re-compress it (without doing any changes/chroot). The resulting iso failed to launch gnome session. Any idea ?
<bryce> scottk, robbiew: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Troubleshooting/Resolution
<kees> james_w: hi! any progress on 287134?
<james_w> kees: refresh :-)
<pitti> asomething: if you could subscribe ubuntu-sru to the new bug, and maybe prepare a new debdiff, I'd appreciate; I'll take care of the sponsoring
<james_w> I was too tired to post the patch when I got back last night, sorry
<asomething> pitti: will do, thanks
<kees> james_w: hah, I refreshed that bug *just* before you added that info.  :P
<kees> james_w: yeah, that looks fine to me.
<ScottK> bryce: Looks good.  You might want to bug cody-sommeriville or some Xubuntu person for their version.
<james_w> kees: I'm just going to, you know, test it, now
<kees> james_w: for the record, I look at Fedora 10 (they're using sha512 as well), and they don't use system-tools-backends or liboobs at all.
<robbiew> bryce: looks fine
<kees> heh
<kees> *looked
<james_w> kees: yeah, I think us and Debian are the only users, and so we're the only ones affected.
 * robbiew thinks ScottK has a good point
<kees> whee
<kees> james_w: what does SuSE use (and if not s-t-b, why do we use it?)
<james_w> kees: yast
<kees> erg
<james_w> kees: for the Jaunty fix I can't see any way to make it nicer, without pretty much re-writing everything, so we may just have to implement every password hash supported by pam in liboobs.
<james_w> kees: I did spend some time trying to work out how to remove gnome-system-tools instead, but it doesn't look promising
<kees> james_w: that's fine -- I'd prefer liboobs _used_ pam, though.
<kees> and technically, it's glibc that supports it (since it implements the crypt() call)
<james_w> kees: I can't find a way to ask pam to hash a password for you and return the result, do you know of one?
<james_w> kees: ah, it does use crypt, I looked at the crypt manpage, and it gave no hint as to how to specify the has you wanted.
<kees> james_w: yeah, the crypt manpage _sucks_
<kees> basically, you select the hash based on the "N" in $N$salt
<kees> james_w: what about just calling "chpasswd" directly?
<kees> james_w: that's what the installer uses
<james_w> kees: are you sure you want to go there? :-)
<kees> james_w: hrm? why?
<james_w> kees: it's because liboobs doesn't set the passwords, s-t-b does. s-t-b calls out to usermod to do so, which requires a crypted password.
<james_w> kees: so liboobs crypts a plaintext password if you give it one, before passing it on to s-t-b.
 * kees cries
 * fabbione offers kees a shoulder to cry
<pitti> fabbione: hey dude! how's life?
<kees> omfg!
<kees>     $command = "$cmd_usermod " .
<kees>         " -p '" . $password . "' " . $login;
<kees>     &Utils::File::run ($command);
<kees> KILL
<fabbione> pitti: not so bad.. you?
<pitti> kees: kwality
<pitti> fabbione: pretty good, thanks
<james_w> kees: so to make this use pam we either need libpam-perl, to rewrite s-t-b in python or C, or to rip it all apart and re-architect it.
<kees> james_w: okay, I think I see how this should be done
<kees> james_w: liboobs should use "!" as the "encrypted password"
<kees> james_w: and s-t-b should grow a _proper_ password-changing routine
<xerosis> vorian: are you the right person to talk to about the release notes?
 * ogra thought there was general agreement at last UDS to drop s-t-b completely and to port the fedora equivalent 
<kees> james_w: passwords are already sent in the clear on dbus for things like policykit, yes?
<kees> ogra: I would be in favor of that after seeing this mess.
<james_w> kees: not policykit I don't think
<ogra> kees, i think pitti reviewed the tool right after UDS but then nothing further happened
<ogra> james_w, that woud surprise me
<ogra> fedora is PK all over
<james_w> kees: polkit has a sane architecture :-)
<pitti> ogra: no, the fedora tool is equally insane
<kees> james_w: oh, how does the password get verified for polkit?
<ogra> pitti, ah
<ogra> i knew there had to be a reason we didnt switch
<pitti> it uses it's very own crazy "get passwordless root through being at local console" thingy
<james_w> kees: when polkit needs a password you ask for something to get it for you, polkit-gnome for a GNOME environment.
<ogra> yeah, that breaks it for all ltp users
<ogra> ltsp#
<kees> james_w: ah, a local help does all the pam stuff and sends a root-originated dbus message?
<kees> *helper
<james_w> kees: this then pops up in a separate process, asks for the password, and then uses set{uid,gid} helpers to create the authentication in the database.
<kees> okay, hm
<james_w> kees: when that dbus call returns you then make the original call again, which finds the authentication in the database and proceeds.
<james_w> seems much more sensible to me, but not directly applicable.
<kees> james_w: how about a patch to chpasswd so that it spits out encrypted passwords to stdout instead of updating /etc/shadow?
<kees> james_w: I'm just trying to isolate the encryption-selection code into one place if possible.
<kees> chpasswd already has all the logic built in to check for the right methods, etc.
<james_w> kees: that sounds reasonable to me, if we're not going to rip it apart
<ogra> kees, would that work with ldap as backend ?
 * ogra has the longstanding dream that the user and groups tool can just attach to ldap as well 
<james_w> ogra: it wouldn't change the capabilities of this at all.
<kees> ogra: I have no idea
<james_w> ogra: just reduce the number of implementations of the password hashes by 1
<james_w> assuming kees just meant to make it spit out hashed passwords without looking at existing passwords etc.
<kees> james_w: right, exactly.
<philsf> cjwatson: ping?
<cjwatson> philsf: yes?
<philsf> cjwatson: can I ask you for some clarification on your resolution for Bug 289284?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289284 in ubiquity "the Installer should offer to subscribe the user in ubuntu-* mailing lists" [Wishlist,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289284
<cjwatson> philsf: sure
<cjwatson> philsf: are you the reporter?
<philsf> I am
<philsf> I didn't understand what you meant by "set up email, if the user doesn't have one"
<cjwatson> ubiquity is intended to be a small and simple installer UI (at least insofar as possible), and I do not believe this is an appropriate feature for it
<cjwatson> that was really not a very relevant comment, I guess
<cjwatson> but I meant that the installer offers the user no guidance on setting up an e-mail account, which would be necessary for many users in order to subscribe to mailing lists
<cjwatson> many users don't have e-mail set up
<cjwatson> anyway, that was not my primary justification for closing the bug wontfix
<philsf> cjwatson: do you agree that users should be in some way (strongly) recommended to subscribe to at least those two MLs (-security-announce and -announce)?
<cjwatson> no, I don't
<cjwatson> well, I certainly don't believe it should be in the installer
<philsf> oh, then maybe this is where we disagree
<cjwatson> users get security updates automatically
<cjwatson> get told about them automatically anyway - that's what the little icon thing in the notification area is for
<cjwatson> and they get informed of new versions of the distribution via update-manager
<cjwatson> the announcement lists are very useful for people who prefer to receive information that way; however I would tend to say that -security-announce is more useful for administrators of multiple machines
<kees> hrm, is there a general fix for the weird libtool errors involving "X--tag=CC: command not found"
<joaopinto> most users do not care about MLs at all
<cjwatson> and anything on -announce that everyone has to know about, I think we often need to address by means of distribution updates anyway
<cjwatson> I don't think my dad needs to read -announce or -security-announce
<philsf> cjwatson: I see your point. but I think the announcement lists are the only fast enough channel where the user might get official information on big issues, say, if a big regression is discovered (and before it gets fixed, obviously)
<cjwatson> (as the closest-to-home example I have of an Ubuntu user)
<cjwatson> philsf: we don't usually publish announcements about that to end users before fixing them
<cjwatson> it usually simply causes more confusion
<cjwatson> sometimes we would notify development lists
<philsf> cjwatson: maybe it could *prevent* confusion
<philsf> the type of confusion that people get into by following $random tutorials on the interblag
<cjwatson> we are not going to help that by flooding them with more information
<philsf> ok, I agree -security-announce is overkill for your dad, my mom and my girlfriend, but the -announce is underutilized, and has more explicative potential
<cjwatson> honestly, I'm sorry but I said no
<philsf> *explanatory
<philsf> cjwatson: pity, just thought I'd give a last try, to make sure we were understanding each other
<philsf> thanks anyway
<cjwatson> experimental evidence suggests that users who care about it do not generally have a problem finding -announce
<cjwatson> we link to this sort of information from the start page in the browser
<cjwatson> the installer, I've found, is not a suitable venue for presenting documentation
<cjwatson> people want to get through it ASAP and start actually using their computer
<cjwatson> if you put information there, or links to it, it gets skipped
<philsf> makes sense
<Chipzz> joaopinto: I'm going to repeat what cjwatson, mvo and possibly a bunch of other people have already told you: please DO NOT instruct people to upgrade using the CD
<ScottK> kees: IIRC NCommander helped me fix one of those.
<kees> ScottK: any idea what the solution was, or which package?
<ScottK> IIRC it involved reliboolization and I don't remember
<joaopinto> Chipzz, uh ? who mentioned about upgrades using the CD ? We were talking about doing a fresh install into an existing /
<kees> ScottK: what's weird is that "libtool" is being generated during the build.
<joaopinto> and the conclusion was, not recommended at this time because it was not properly tested
<ScottK> kees: I really don't recall.
<Chipzz> I would say: not recommended *ever*, even if properly tested
<joaopinto> Chipzz, uh ? So there is am approved blue print, and the feature was implemented, and now it should not be used ?
<cjwatson> it was implemented because the alternative was worse
<cjwatson> the alternative was everyone telling users to create a separate partition for /home, which involved them making a decision for which they typically had insufficient information (relative sizes of / and /home) which was then very difficult and painful to change later
<joaopinto> so, what is wrong with the current implementation, apart from the lack of testing ?
<kees> NCommander: ping (libtool magic)
<Chipzz> there are 2 possible ways such an upgrade could work; I see problems with both of these
<Chipzz> cjwatson: do files in /etc get overwritten by a live-cd install without format, or do the originals get kept?
<Chipzz> joaopinto: either the files in /etc get overwritten, which means users loose all their existing config, or it doesn't in which case you may get a broken install
<Chipzz> both cases suck
<cjwatson> Chipzz: overwritten
<cjwatson> preserve-home is about keeping data, not settings
<Chipzz> right, that's what I guessed
<Chipzz> cjwatson: btw, that's not a critique pointed at ubuntu; just pointing out to joaopinto why that is not a good way of upgrading
<cjwatson> indeed
<joaopinto> regular desktop apps do not have any relevant data on /etc, nothing that you can't afford to lose
<Chipzz> brb, gotta run for a bit
<Chipzz> joaopinto: things you may have had to do to get say, wireless, or X working?
<joaopinto> Chipzz, uh, how is that different from a regular reinstall ?
<cjwatson> it's different from an upgrade
<joaopinto> those are expected to be set by the installer, not something you need to preserve across instals
<cjwatson> we do not recommend that people reinstall either to get from one version of Ubuntu to another
<cjwatson> we recommend that they upgrade, which preserves both data and settings
<joaopinto> preserve-home is not about upgrading, is about, reinstalling
<cjwatson> yes. but you're recommending it to people upgrading, by your own statement
<cjwatson> it is not intended for this purpose.
<joaopinto> also, reinstalling is a good way to cleanup your system from software that you no longer need, a lot of people reinstall just for the sake of cleaning up
<cjwatson> sure, which is fine (ish), but that's *different* from upgrading
<cjwatson> please do not recommend reinstalling to people who should be upgrading
<joaopinto> no, I am recommending people to do a fresh install :)
<cjwatson> well, that's at variance with what we recommend so we will continue to disagree
<cjwatson> we> Ubuntu development team
<joaopinto> cjwatson, I have seen a lot of reports, on forums and irc, about problems with upgrades, is the upgrade process more reliable now ?
<joaopinto> I mean, problems which were not experienced with a fresh install
<azeem> I've seen many reports about aliens on the web
<cjwatson> we are constantly improving the upgrade process in light of reports we receive
<cjwatson> it is better for people to upgrade and for us to fix that than for everyone to be told to reinstall and lose all their settings every time
<cjwatson> upgrading is a core strength of Debian-based systems
<joaopinto> azeem, that is funny, because some people does classify linux users as aliens...
<elmo> azeem: I've seen many reports that _you're_ an alien on the web
<azeem> at least I'm not Ben Affleck anymore
<joaopinto> cjwatson, I understand your point, the issue is that, you don't have massive testing for upgrades, "production" users will upgrade after the release, which is too late
<Chipzz> 19:57 < cjwatson> upgrading is a core strength of Debian-based systems >> exactly
<cjwatson> joaopinto: (a) we have more than you might think (b) that's why we continue to fix update-manager after release as necessary
<Chipzz> joaopinto: like already stated, the upgrade path is way more tested than the reinstall path
<cjwatson> joaopinto: sorry, I'm busy and not interested in discussing this further
<joaopinto> cjwatson, no problems, thanks for your time
<Chipzz> joaopinto: I am not part of the ubuntu development team, but have lots of experience with both debian and ubuntu (forgive the arrogance, but you could call me an expert)
<Chipzz> joaopinto: nevertheless, 2 prominent people of the ubuntu development team have contradicted you
<joaopinto> Chipzz, like I said, my position is not based on my own experience, is based on my frequent participation in both forums and irc support
<Chipzz> now I don't want to sound threatening, but I suggest you follow their advice against your own "knowlegde", and do not go around spreading poor "advice" to people
<joaopinto> Chipzz, I am talking from users perspective, not from a developers perspective
<Chipzz> yes, and you are doing the users a DISSERVICE with it
<azeem> and the Ubuntu project
<Chipzz> so let me, once again, strongly suggest you do NOT give that advice to users
<joaopinto> Chipzz, you sound threatening, but I don't care, I will follow the recommendations that I found reasonable and having in consideration the input that I got from the respectable members of the Ubuntu devs community
<ogra> joaopinto, which members of the dev community did suggest reinstalling ?
<joaopinto> ogra, none
<Chipzz> it's not a threat. It's very strong advice
<Chipzz> because you are ill-informed
<ogra> right
<Chipzz> and are spreading that bad advice to other users
<joaopinto> ogra, I am not going to suggest reinstalls anymore
 * ogra would consider Chipzz a "quasi ubuntu dev btw" ... a typical lazy chap that doesnt do the paperwork but does a lot of helpful work ;)
<ogra> and surely someone knowledgeable about ubuntu and its processes
<Chipzz> ogra: thx :)
<joaopinto> Chipzz, well, that why I am here, learning, and please be aware that you see a lot more people recommending reinstalls after failed upgrades, eventually also ill-informed
<ogra> joaopinto, cool, thats great
<Chipzz> joaopinto: if the upgrade fails, and there is no easy way of fixing things, you can still consider a reinstall (which may, or may not work)
<ogra> and notify us about the failure so it will not occur in the next release
<joaopinto> that will be my approach for the next release
<ogra> if people reinstall first place, very important info for us as devs is lost
<joaopinto> I will be mailing about 20k ubuntu users today, I will be forwarding them to the official upgrade instructions, based on your input
<ogra> great :)
<\sh> 20k ubuntu users?
<\sh> I'll by the list with emails ,-)
<\sh> s/by/buy/
<joaopinto> \sh, getdeb registered users
<joaopinto> not for sale :P
<\sh> joaopinto: you can make a dime, if you do something like "opendownload.de" ;;) sell ubuntu debian packages for money ,-) with a weekly renewal fee ,->
<NCommander> kees, pong
<kees> NCommander: I'm trying to fix a problem with libtool.  ScottK said you may have helped him with a similar issue.
<kees> ../libtool: line 824: X--tag=CC: command not found
<NCommander> kees, oh, that issue. What package?
<kees> NCommander: shadow
<NCommander> on intrepid, hardy, gutsy, or dapper?
<mvo> joaopinto: please tell the users to file bugs if a upgrade fails, there is also some new test tool called "sandbox-upgrader" that can sort of simulate the upgrade on modern hardware.
<kees> intrepid -- I'm just testing something for when jaunty opens
<NCommander> kees, where is your patch so I can replicate the build failure
<kees> NCommander: no patch -- it FTBFS with no changes.
<ajmitch> that sounds familiar
<joaopinto> \sh, that would required fulltime dedication, I need a job to pay my bills :P
<kees> ajmitch: yeah, though google is unhelpful
<mvo> joaopinto: its ok to talk to me about failure on irc too (well, not by all the 20k users at the same time :) - I think its ok to tell them aobut the install with preserving /home as a way to restore the system if a upgrade fails. its nice that this way no user data is lost
<\sh> joaopinto: this company which did this, made a lot of money in less then a couple of months :) more money you need to pay your bills ;) but now they have a problem ;)
<joaopinto> mvo, on the past on my instructions I have advised to keep /home on a different partition and doing a fresh install, because on my perception that was the most reliable method
<NCommander> kees, ok, I kinda see the issue, some of your patches are doing something to trigger a libtool regeneration
<mvo> joaopinto: right, its a valid approach, but as cjwatson pointed out already its difficult to get right for a user to figure how much space to give the system and how much home and its a pain to change it after the install. but certainly valid for experienced users
<jspiro> hi all.  could you please ship glipper (gnome equivalent of klipper) with ubuntu?  it prevents accidental clipboard clobbering.
<sebner> mvo: for a normal guy 15gb / are great and the rest /home :P
<joaopinto> \sh, that would required some money oriented mind, we are all community oriented ppl
<kees> NCommander: really?
<ion_> For a normal guy, a plain / is great.
 * pitti usually uses 5 GB /
<kees> NCommander: I touched some manpage xml
 * sebner wonders why his / is 12GB big
<NCommander> kees, weird things can do it :-/
<kees> NCommander: but so do other patches
<NCommander> kees, however, it hasn't died here yet
<kees> NCommander: yeah, I may have misspoke -- I thought I retested it
<pitti> but since ubiquity supports preserving /home on reinstall, the only reason why you'd want a separate home is multiple linux installations
<kees> but I started a new build without patches
<NCommander> THere we go
<jspiro> ion_: it's harder to dual-boot 2 linux distros without a separate /home.
<kees> NCommander: ah, yeah, boom
<NCommander> For CDBS packages, the easiest way to fix this is to properly regenerate the libtool to the right version with the DEB_AUTO_UPDATE_LIBTOOL macro
<sebner> pitti: but it's still a bad idea to use a /home with multiple distributions?
<\sh> sebner: why?
<pitti> sebner: works fine for me
<mrooney> sebner: do you mean to share a /home with multiple distros?
<sebner> mrooney:
<pitti> I share my /home amongst dapper, hardy, and sid
<sebner> pitti: hmm ok ubuntu and debian but what about suse or fedora? I think I read somewhere that that might break something
<mrooney> pitti: I had trouble with that between hardy and gutsy, when hardy rhythmbox updated its db to a new version and gutsy couldn't read it anymore
<pitti> sebner: maybe
<ion_> jspiro: I thought we were talking about the normal guy.
<\sh> mrooney: you can prevent this with adding a separate user for each distro...
<jspiro> ion_: sorry, i jumped into the middle of the conversation.  I shouldn't've.
<sebner> \sh: ah you read the same as me? ^^
<sebner> \sh: that was one solution I think ^^
<NCommander> kees, test building the fix
<\sh> sebner: well, I'll do the same as pitti, but I can recreate my rhythmbox db all the time ;) just delete the .<dir> ,-)
<pitti> and I don't actually use RB in dapper, I just have that for testing some stuff
 * sebner uses amarok2 so no matter if it's b0rken with intrepid or anything else :D
<mrooney> \sh: yeah, I didn't think of that
<\sh> sebner: but yes, someone can really create additional users for testing..most of the time you have your default user for allday work and other accounts for testing other stuff
<kees> NCommander: what's the patch look like?
<mrooney> but then you aren't sharing application settings and it isn't as neat
<NCommander> kees, one line change to rules
<sebner> \sh: someone != sebner. /me only has 1 laptop with 1 distro (ubuntu unstable) and 1 user :D
<\sh> mrooney: but this can be pita even on upgrades...or reinstalls...:) I just did that at home, and fall into some pits with it...(even if some magic upgrade hooks are trying to come over this problem...but KDE is sometimes a b*tch)
<NCommander> kees, and success
<kees> NCommander: pastebin the patch?
<jspiro> all : semi-repeat :  How do I request that a package be included in ubuntu?  I would like you folks to please ship glipper (gnome equivalent of klipper) with ubuntu.  It prevents accidental clipboard clobbering.
<NCommander> !packages jscinoz
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<NCommander> argh
 * NCommander has a bot failure
<james_w> jspiro: it's in the archives, do you mean by default?
<jspiro> james_w: yes, i mean by default
<james_w> jspiro: I'm not sure that's a good idea. glipper is unmaintained upstream, and has a couple of pretty bad bugs.
<NCommander> kees, I'm having trouble generating a clean debdiff (your clean rule doesn't actually clean :-P!
<\sh> sebner: ok :) I have at least 4 desktop machines, 2 production ones (who are staying on hardy) and two play desktops which are running intrepid for some time now...
<jspiro> james_w: are the bugs worse than the data loss caused by accidental clipboard clobbering? :)
 * kees doesn't claim to be the maintainer of "shadow"  :P
<sebner> \sh: hrhr, nice. but /me only needs 1 machine for playing,testing and working :P
<james_w> jspiro: heh :-)
<NCommander> Unrelated but awesome news: I got AppArmour available on PowerPC!
<NCommander> wooo
<\sh> NCommander: AWESOME!
<NCommander> kees, http://pastebin.ca/1239916
<NCommander> \sh, and a 2.6.27 based kernel :-)
<jspiro> james_w: :-) what do you think?
<kees> NCommander: cool, thanks
<kirkland> NCommander: very nice!
<jdong> NCommander: it's AppArmor :)
<jdong> sheesh you people europeanizing American words.
<NCommander> jdong, this is why I want to backport the kernel
<NCommander> jdong, I am American
<\sh> AppAmore? ,-)
<jdong> NCommander: then stop wasting bits with superfluous u's!
<jspiro> uuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
<NCommander> No, the flavour and colour of British spelling of American words like Armour!
<james_w> jspiro: if someone were to care for it, and start by fixing the critical bugs then I wouldn't be against it, but I think it would need more discussion
<NCommander> kees, I also ported it to IA64
 * NCommander has been extremely busy
<jspiro> james_w: how does one convince someone at Gnome to take maintainership and fix the critical bugs?
<james_w> jspiro: no idea.
<james_w> is it even a GNOME project?
<james_w> i.e. on GNOME infrastructure?
<kees> NCommander: wow, nice.  have you sent the patches to the AppArmor upstream folks?
<NCommander> kees, it built withotu changes from their SVN head
<kees> ah, cool
<NCommander> None of the code is in any platform specific places, and at least on powerpc, the userland tools appear to work
<kees> NCommander: is it not enabled on ubuntu ppc?
<NCommander> kees, it was never added to our git tree
<NCommander> <- *has seemingly become the defacto linux-ports maintainer*
<sebner> cruft-remover is strange. That installed some applications (I had some installed that are not in the archive)
<NCommander> I have no idea how to install profiles however to confirm its actually working, I just know things like apparmor_status work
<kees> NCommander: ah, cool.
<jspiro> james_w: looks like it isn't.
<james_w> jspiro: have you looked at any of the alternatives?
<jspiro> james_w: no
<jspiro> is there an alternative which is maintained and which you would consider shipping with ubuntu?
<james_w> I'm not sure.
<james_w> I have seen something called something-packer or something mentioned a couple of times
<james_w> parcellite
 * NCommander works on the HPPA kernel
<jspiro> james_w:  ah, http://parcellite.sourceforge.net/.  it looks still maintained.  But I've never tried it.
<Chipzz> NCommander: the more exotic, the better? :)
<NCommander> Chipzz, I'm aiming to improve all port architectures
<NCommander> Anyway, the major w/ HPPA is NPTL support
<james_w> jspiro: if you would like to discuss this more I suggest mailing ubuntu-desktop@lists.u.c
<NCommander> THe kernel chunks are badly out of date, but having a more modern kernel available should get that beast going aagain
<\sh> sebner: what is cruft-remover?
<sebner> \sh: the new name for "system-cleaner" <-- our new hot utily in intrepid
<jspiro> sebner: did you know there's already a cleanup tool in Debian called cruft(1)?
<pitti> it's still a mystery to me how a functional description like "system cleaner" can get a trademark..
<\sh> sebner: ah..well...I just reinstall my ubuntu install when I need to remove cruft *lol*
<jspiro> sebner: sudo aptitude install cruft -yq
<sebner> jscinoz: apt apt apt :P
<\sh> pitti: what? it has a trademark? (system-cleaner)?
<sebner> pitti: is it the intention so remove also non-archive stuff?
<sebner> \sh: yes, because of that -> new name
<sebner> *so = to
<\sh> sebner: that sounds like the "webspace" name patent during the 90ties in germany...
<liw> existing trademark: correct, hence name change; cruft(1) already exists: correct, but it's somewhat limited in scope and has no GUI
<sebner> \sh: O_o /me was a little little child that time :P
<sebner> cruft-remover is a new thing and not only a cruft gui I suppose!?
<liw> sebner, correct, a completely new thing
<sebner> that removed my software xD
<\sh> sebner: it was cruft, you didn't need it ;)
<liw> all those .deb packages just take up space on your hard drive, so you're better off removing them and using the space for something important
<liw> (I'm joking :)
<sebner> \sh: hmm maybe that app is some kind of mental doctor. /me should play games :P
<\sh> mkfs.xfs /dev/sda1 (NTFS Partition) -> Removing Cruft
<sebner> \sh: hrhr. bah ext4 ftw :P
<\sh> sebner: na...ext4 needs some more testing from my side...before I rely on it ;)
<cjwatson> jspiro: cruft-remover is in the same spirit as cruft, IMO
<sebner> \sh: that's why I don't like server stuff and so on. Unstable ftw! :D
<cjwatson> so I think the similar name is fine
<sebner> cjwatson: /me wonders if it's installed by default now!?
<jspiro> cjwatson: i think it's a bit confusing.  how about junk-remover or some other name?
<cjwatson> sebner: no, we took it out
<cjwatson> jspiro: enough with renamings :) we've already renamed it once
<jspiro> cjwatson: you picked an imperfect name :)
<sebner> cjwatson: but it was? /me hasn't reinstalled intrepid yet
<liw> cjwatson, hey, I'm fine with renaming it for every release, and keeping the version number constant ;)
<\sh> liw: lol
<jspiro> witness phoenix (trademark of BIOS manufacturer) -> firebird (name of database software) -> firefox
<Treenaks> cjwatson: Phoenix -> Firebird -> Firefox
<liw> sebner, correct, it was part of the default install, but not anymore (hopefully will be again)
<sebner> liw: hopefully not. it removed cruft that I wanted to keep xD
<liw> sebner, that'll get fixed before it gets installed by default again, of course
<\sh> I wonder when "Lenovo" will come to me and complain about "Leonov"
<sebner> liw: ok then it's nice. removing all the kernel cruft was nice but not my games xD
<cjwatson> jspiro: whatever
<cjwatson> sebner: it was, yes
<sebner> \me wonders when \sh will have time again for it
<sebner> cjwatson: right decision, too buggy
<cjwatson> jspiro: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=506636+517178+/usr/local/www/db/text/1999/freebsd-hackers/19991003.freebsd-hackers
<\sh> sebner: from the 10th again...then I have my time back...and not running around in DCs all the time and doing other "not so important stuff" like real life work ;)
<Treenaks> cjwatson: http://bikeshed.com/
<Treenaks> cjwatson: (now in full colour!)
<sebner> \sh: that's my /me likes to be unemployed  ^^
<\sh> sebner: without my job I couldn't afford all the fun ubuntu / leonov stuff...
<slangasek> Treenaks: that's a terrible <hr /> they're using on that page; it needs to be at least 15% shorter
<ajmitch> \sh: how's leonov going?
<sebner> \sh: don't you know the "olliver geissen show" with all the hartz4 people enjoying their lifes? ^^ xD
<\sh> ajmitch: when everything is fine, I'll get rid of most parts of py-lp-bugs and switch over to lp-api completly
<\sh> ajmitch: there  are still some things missing..but it will make our life much easier when speaking of "changing real stuff on LP"...
<james_w> kees: are sha512 passwords created by something other than glibc's crypt()?
<\sh> ajmitch: it's just my job which is in the way right now (since the last two months somehow)
<jspiro> cjwatson: you're right.  I should stop complaining about cruft-remover's name and just enjoy the tool. :)  thank you for pointing that out.
<ajmitch> \sh: nice, hopefully it can see some more use for jaunty
<kees> james_w: shouldn't be, no.
<kees> james_w: afaik, pam calls into glibc's crypt()
<\sh> ajmitch: I think just in time before UVF we can include leonov into jaunty...
<directhex> okay, how's this: explicitly don't mount network mounts during boot on systems that use n-m. handle it in a n-m way (e.g. whatever the equiv of if.post-up et al are)
<james_w> kees: the crypt.texi in glibc is better than the crypt manpage, but it only describes 3DES and md5. I'm trying to follow the twisty paths to the implementation
<kees> james_w: don't re-implement, go the call-chpasswd route (I've got a patch ready for shadow)
<james_w> kees: ah, nice, thanks.
<RainCT> kees: btw, did you find the problem about ubiquity encripting the password in /etc/shadow using the wrong method?
<kees> RainCT: yeah, 51551
<RainCT> wow, old bug
<\sh> ajmitch: but a good idea would be to find a sponsor who is sponsoring me and one gtk dev for leonov for at least one year ,-) so I can leave work for one year for an unpaid leave and do real work ;)
<ajmitch> \sh: heh, yes, I'd love to have the same :)
<kees> james_w: http://people.ubuntu.com/~kees/shadow_4.1.1-1ubuntu2.debdiff
<RainCT> kees: anyway, thanks for looking into it :)
<\sh> ajmitch: how is NZ these days? more linux approaching or still on the MS travelling course?
<james_w> kees: nice.
<kees> RainCT: yeah, it's turning into an ever-growing problem.  :)
<kees> james_w: http://pastebin.osuosl.org/22450
<kees> (though you'll need "ENCRYPT_METHOD SHA512
<kees> in your /etc/login.defs
<ajmitch> \sh: hard to say, MS stuff still seems to dominate
<james_w> kees: that's not default though right?
<kees> james_w: not in intrepid, but it will be in jaunty
<james_w> kees: cool
<kees> james_w: oversight on my part -- I thought only pam needed it
<kees> fixing /etc/login.defs will mostly fix 51551
<ajmitch> \sh: to avoid being too OT here, let's take over #leonov instead :)
<\sh> ajmitch: crap...I hope I can immigrate just before I'm too fat for NZs immigration rules ;)
<james_w> kees: I'm not sure how to call an external program and capture the output in C.
<james_w> kees: or do you propose to pass the password unencrypted over dbus?
<kees> james_w: no, call it locally.
<ogra> fork() ... pipe() ?
<james_w> ok, I'll research how to do it.
<kees> james_w: there are (probably too many) things documenting how to do it.  I would recommend popen
<james_w> kees: have you read the rest of the s-t-b file in question?
<james_w> kees: cool, thanks.
<kees> james_w: yeah
<james_w> not pretty, is it?
<ogra> if its a glib capable app, use g_spawn_sync/async
<james_w> kees: anything else in there needs to be fixed urgently, or is it just a little unpleasant?
<kees> james_w: your sha\d+ is sufficient for intrepid.  the chpasswd+oobs patches should be for jaunty.
<kees> james_w: (so, no, nothing urgent beyond the sha\d+ fix)
<james_w> kees: yeah, sorry, I meant urgently as in jaunty.
<kees> james_w: all the packages attached to bug 51551 need fixing too
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 51551 in user-setup "newusers, liboobs uses crypt insted of md5, intrepid installer doesn't use sha512" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/51551
<kees> I'll handle shadow, and I think I can convince evand to do the d-i stuff.
<james_w> cool, I'll take a look at the others.
<james_w> I think we can make s-t-b respect login.defs as well as parse pam.d
<kees> james_w: there's no reason to involve s-t-b at all if oobs ignores the use_md5 stuff and DTRT by calling chpasswd
<james_w> ah, ok
<james_w> got it now
<james_w> # modifies /etc/shadow directly, not good practice,
<james_w> # but better than passing clean passwords around
<james_w> that's not nice, but is solaris only, so we don't have to fix it
<kees> james_w: right, s-t-b uses "usermod" on linux, which is fine, if a bit crazy
<james_w> kees: thanks for your help. When you forward the shadow patch can you drop me a link so I can point to it when forwarding the oobs one?
<kees> the primary issue is killing a duplicate password-crypting implementation.
<kees> james_w: yeah, totally.  I need to clean up the shadow patch a little anyway -- this is just an initial PoC
<evand> kees: will do
 * kees hugs evand
<pregier> Are questions about live usb image construction best asked here or in the support channel?  The image made by usb-creator has some elements I don't recognize which is making customization a bit tricky; I'm trying to customize an image which doesn't require constant access to the boot device but I can't locate the mechanism that accesses the squashfs file in /casper...
<cjwatson> evand: ^-
<evand> pregier: the image created by usb-creator is the same as a live CD plus a casper-rw file and a few options changed in the syslinux configuration (additional kernel command line options)
<ptx0> why does the default kernel in Intrepid have XEN_CONFIG=y :/
<pregier> evand: That helps, but even then I'm still not sure which component is responsible for the squashfs file handling; is that ubuntu-specific in any way?
<pregier> if it's a feature of the kernel or of syslinux which I've never seen,  then I'm probably in the wrong place altogether
<cjwatson> the squashfs is mounted by casper's initramfs scripts
<cjwatson> apt-get source casper
<pregier> perfect; thanks!
<pitti> Riddell: hm, so I am confused now; is http://launchpadlibrarian.net/19039704/kdebase-workspace_4.1.2-0ubuntu13_source.changes for bug 281950 or for bug 287488? AFAICS, one bug should be prepared for SRU (task, etc.); can you please give me a quick heads-up there?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 281950 in kdebase-workspace "KDE Cannot start from kdm or gdm" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/281950
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287488 in kdebase-workspace "xsession not set to kde, cannot start desktop with message xsession failed" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287488
<Riddell> pitti: https://launchpad.net/bugs/287488 is the one I'm using now, I was using 281950 for the issue but the reporter insists he has a different issue so I went back to 287488
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 287488 in kdebase-workspace "xsession not set to kde, cannot start desktop with message xsession failed" [Undecided,In progress]
<pitti> Riddell: right, so 281950 is the driver issue which doesn't have an SRU right now
<Riddell> pitti: right (which I've not looked in to)
<ptx0> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/290888
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290888 in linux "default kernel has CONFIG_XEN=y" [Undecided,New]
<jdong> ptx0: I think we need a patch similar to debian bug 500175
<ubottu> Debian bug 500175 in nvidia-kernel-source "nvidia-kernel-source: Please support compilation against non-paravirt ops" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/500175
<jdong> i.e. nvidia is incorrectly detecting Xen
<ptx0> correctly*
<ptx0> hm
<jdong> *in* correctly from what I can see
<jdong> -        #ifdef CONFIG_XEN
<jdong> +        #if defined(CONFIG_XEN) && !defined(CONFIG_PARAVIRT)
<jdong> something like that.
<ptx0> http://pastebin.com/m52f7dd1b
<slangasek> kirkland: the release notes text in bug #290445 is also not yet accurate, right, because the package fixing this is not available?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290445 in ecryptfs-utils "ecryptfs-setup-private fails if passphrase contains character "%"" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/290445
<kirkland> slangasek: would you care to sponsor?
<kirkland> slangasek: the patch is in that bug
<kirkland> slangasek: jdstrand was waiting for the -updates repo to open
<jdstrand> kirkland: I can push it out
<slangasek> kirkland: it's already open; but even so it needs to go through the SRU process which involves a waiting period, it would be good to have release notes that are accurate at release time
<kirkland> slangasek: okay
<jdstrand> that was my thinking
<jdstrand> kirkland: I'll upload it soon
<kirkland> slangasek: i'm good with whatever test you want to go with, in that case
<slangasek> darn
<slangasek> I don't have any text for it yet :)
<kirkland> slangasek: shall i rework it again?
<slangasek> if you could, that would be lovely
<slangasek> if not it goes on my stack
<kirkland> slangasek: i've got my kubuntu iso install going, so i'll do it
 * Riddell hugs kirkland 
<kirkland> Riddell: ;-)
<kirkland> slangasek: i could hardcode the version, that the user should upgrade to >= 53-1ubuntu12 (or wait until that is available) ?
<slangasek> kirkland: hard-coding the version number seems reasonable to me; probably with some brief explanation that it's not available at day-one
<kirkland> slangasek: cool, uno momento
<kirkland> slangasek: robbiew: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ecryptfs-utils/+bug/290445 updated text there
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290445 in ecryptfs-utils "ecryptfs-setup-private fails if passphrase contains character "%"" [High,In progress]
 * calc bought a new dect phone with bluetooth support :)
<calc> no more interference in phone calls from my wifi
<pwnguin> http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/RelaunchTWikiOrgProject =(
<jdong> pwnguin: ugh I have enough of a grudge against them that the project can burn in hell.
<jdong> pwnguin: I created a website back then off twiki 3.x.x and lived through all the hell
<jdong> pwnguin: multiple quote mark shell escapes, attachment execution vulnerabilities, search infinite loop DoS, the entirely incompatible 4.x.x upgrade....
 * jdong shudders
<NCommander> jdong, I perfer MediaWiki or MoinMoin over TWiki :-/
 * NCommander grumbles
<jdong> NCommander: as do I. I've learned my lesson.
<jdong> NCommander: I was a young one back then
<jdong> even before backports was conceived :)
<calc> yipee my evil bug got fixed :)
<calc> well one of my evil bugs
<luisbg> slangasek: ping! you around_
<luisbg> ?
<slangasek> luisbg: hi
<luisbg> slangasek: http://ubuntustudio.org/release_note
<pwnguin> jdong: apparently the lead developer appointed himself bdfl, because that's how ubuntu did it.
<pwnguin> and then locked everyone out?
<luisbg> slangasek, should the formating be improved or maybe the url to something like ubuntustudio_8-10
<luisbg> ?
<slangasek> luisbg: I think moving the url is a good idea.  You also say "See the Ubuntu release notes for other non Ubuntu Studio specific changes.", but the Ubuntu release notes document errata, not changes in general
<slangasek> so that might benefit from clarification
<luisbg> slangasek: http://ubuntustudio.org/8-10_release_note
<ogra-Q1> moop
<luisbg> its there now, which looks much better
<luisbg> slangasek: I dont understand what you say about the "See the Ubuntu release notes..." :S
<slangasek> luisbg: you tell people "See the Ubuntu release notes for other non Ubuntu Studio specific changes."  If people go to the Ubuntu release notes, what they get is not what I think they'll expect based on that sentence
<luisbg> how would you phrase it?
<slangasek> luisbg: are the release notes what you want to point users at?  i.e., https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseNotes ?
<luisbg> no
<slangasek> then I don't think it's a question of phrasing :)
<luisbg> the press release anouncing the new version and a quick summary of what it has
<slangasek> press release is at http://www.ubuntu.com/news/ubuntu-8.10-desktop
<slangasek> and should probably be referred to as "the Ubuntu press release"
<luisbg> ok
<luisbg> changing that
<slangasek> anyway - I've included the link to this page in the mail draft, so thank you
<luisbg> no problem :)
<luisbg> thanks to you
#ubuntu-devel 2008-10-30
<luisbg> slangasek: good night (its late here) :)
<slangasek> luisbg: 'night!
<evand> cody-somerville: doing test installs of xubuntu and I have to admit, it's very pretty.
<cody-somerville> evand, thank you :)
<cody-somerville> evand, I'll be sure to pass on the compliments to our art guys :)
<slangasek> cody-somerville: will there be a xubuntu announcement page that you want linked from the ubuntu-announce mail?
<cody-somerville> slangasek, yes please. I'll prepare it right now.
<slangasek> ok
<ptx0> who do i contact about hosting a mirror for 8.10 on ipv6
<Keybuk> ptx0: how much bandwidth do you have?
<ptx0> 400mbit commit
<ptx0> Keybuk, 100mbit if that's what you meant
<ptx0> Keybuk, ?
<bokey> hey guys whats the ETA for intrepid final release?
<bokey> need to update the channel topic
<Keybuk> bokey: October 30th
<bokey> Keybuk: its oct 30th here :P)
<cody-somerville> bokey, not everywheres in the world
<jdong> it's released when it's released.
<jdong> how's that?
<bokey> i know cody-somerville just asking the ETA
<Keybuk> bokey: and it will be October 30th somewhere for at least the next 32 hours
<bokey> Keybuk: any specific time?
<Keybuk> bokey: no, there is no specific time
<elmo> can we have a FAQ page for this?
<bokey> Keybuk: okie then
<cody-somerville> bokey, Please see #ubuntu-release-party
<Keybuk> bokey: if you need the toilet, or to eat, of drink, I would recommend that you go now
<Keybuk> rather than waiting for the release
<bokey> lmao :P)
<cjwatson> bokey: the release team will update the topic at the appropriate time
<bokey> thanks Keybuk cjwatson for all canonical/ubuntu/debian devs for yet another distro!
<slangasek> yes, don't be like the kid in Alaska who got permission during the 8.04 release to stay up until 4am
<bokey> s/for/and/g :P)
<bokey> see yaa all when it gets released.. i'll hear the noise ;)
 * jdong watches slangasek count to 10 and push the big RELEASE button
 * Keybuk watches slangasek count to 10 in base 1,000,000
<StevenK> Which is the same as counting 1 to 10 in base 10
<Keybuk> no, it's really not
<StevenK> Oh, duh
<Keybuk> math, hard
<StevenK> Yup
<Keybuk> and you're awake in your _own_ timezone!
 * slangasek grins
<lifeless> perhaps chinese has enough characters
 * StevenK tries to debug "X: client 1 rejected from local host"
* evand changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: 8.10 - http://preview.ubunut.com/8.10 | 8.10 RC released | archive: Release Freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-hardy, #ubuntu+1 for intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs || Evil bug 286175
<jdong> evand: oh I see what you did there.
 * jdong hugs /etc/squid/rickroll.acl
<evand> ;)
<Chipzz> ptx0: not 100% sure if it's apropriate, but you could also try to ask your question in #canonical-sysadmin
<nenolod> i don't know how one could have 400mbit 95% commitment on a 100mbit port.
<genii> Hi. Is there any plan anywhere along the line to implement some kind of differential update system? Mostly curious why this has not been worked on or so.
<Burgundavia> genii: the issue is from delta from what?
<genii> Burgundavia: Base release version on CD would be my first thought. Then diffs based from there for each update.
<Burgundavia> genii: I suspect it comes down to lack of development time
<genii> However this may require some re-engineering of the dpkg system in some radical way, I suppose
<Burgundavia> although a delta-deb from the last stable might not be a bad idea, even if only for the big packages
<genii> Burgundavia: The idea occurs to me at times like these when the servers will be bogged down for extended periods....
<Burgundavia> again, lack of development resources is the big issue, I suspect
<genii> Burgundavia: OK, thanks at least for responding.
<Burgundavia> if you want to volunteer to help, talk to michael vogt
<Burgundavia> mvo on irc
<genii> Burgundavia: OK. My C is rusty but I'm willing to give what I can
<Burgundavia> there is already apt-delta stuff
<genii> Burgundavia: Any idea which channel they frequent?
<Burgundavia> this one
<Burgundavia> mvo is European, so likely on in a few hours
<genii> OK. Apparently not here atm then
<Burgundavia> basically, delta-apt already exists
<Burgundavia> the issue is choosing to and from for the deltas
<genii> Burgundavia: I'll look at Launchpad for it to bone up on the subject
<dholbach> good morning
<genii> Bah. No assignee or in fact much of anything for this project.
<genii> No, wait. delta-apt and not apt-delta :)     <does a Homer Simpson sound>
<Burgundavia> genii: there are a few specs floating around about the subject
<Burgundavia> hey dholbach
<dholbach> hi Burgundavia
<genii> Burgundavia: Found Vogt's page there. He's a very busy boy.
<Chipzz> genii: indeed he is
<RAOF> TheMuso: Incidentally, good work on the Pulseaudio shenanagins.  Everything works here; even the 32bit Skype.
<siretart> oh, first package in intrepid-updates?
<wgrant> Some time ago.
<wgrant> Copied from -security, IIRC.
<wgrant> More coming.
<stefanlsd> I think im gonna reinstall. I've upgraded from feisty to gutsy to hardy and intrepid.  Im missing things like that unified shutdown button i've heard about :)
<wgrant> stefanlsd: Intrepid will ask you if you want to switch over to it.
<wgrant> Or you can do it manually.
<wgrant> I've machines upgraded from Warty that work fine.
<stefanlsd> wgrant: heh. yeah. i think i've also just got tons of cruft from the dev cycles. would rather start fresh. also gonna evaluate ext4 or xfs (now with hans being in prison and all)
<geser> stefanlsd: I tried XFS some years ago switched back to ext3 after I got a fs corruption on the same day on my desktop and my notebook after doing a package update
<geser> I hope you will have more luck with XFS
<stefanlsd> geser: i've done some testing, and it seems ok. From what im reading, ext4 sounds pretty good.  Just need to see if it can do online resize. I really like that feature of reiser.
<mdke> I guess people are aware that "xscreensaver setup" and "orca" have popped up in their own new menus in the Applications menu in intrepid?
<mdke> I can't find a bug about it, but I think that should be fixed before release if at all possible...
<ajmitch> mdke: under what menu?
<mdke> it wasn't notified as a UI freeze exception that I can see, and they look strange having their own menu
<ajmitch> I'm a few days behind updates, but I don't see them
<mdke> ajmitch: "System Tools" and "Universal Access" respectively
<mdke> both are the only items in those menus
<pitti> Good morning
<ajmitch> hey pitti
<mdke> hiya pitti
<pitti> hey mdke
<pitti> hi ajmitch, long time no see!
<ajmitch> pitti: I've been around, just not active :)
<davmor2> guys still bbc connection from totem
<mdke> I've filed the xscreensaver one as bug 291000, not sure about the orca one, maybe that is justifiable, but it still looks odd all on its own in the menu
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 291000 in xscreensaver "xscreensaver has appeared in System Tools menu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/291000
<davmor2> mdke: is this on Ubuntu if so I don't have on either test install from last night
<mdke> davmor2: yes, on Ubuntu
<davmor2> mdke: no xscreensaver in my main install or either of my test installs
* tseliot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: 8.10 - http://preview.ubuntu.com/8.10 | 8.10 RC released | archive: Release Freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-hardy, #ubuntu+1 for intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs || Evil bug 286175
<mdke> davmor2: ok?
<pitti> bah, what the heck is wrong with ddebs.ubuntu.com's Release files
<lool> pitti: The release file references itself?!?
<lool> pitti: e.G. http://ddebs.ubuntu.com/dists/hardy-updates/Release references  da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709                0 dists/hardy-updates/Release
<pitti> lool: that, too, but that doesn't hurt
<lool> pitti: What's the issue?
<pitti> lool: the intrepid one has an invalid structure and references the entire tree
<pitti> and I didn't implement race-free updating of Packages.gz, Release, and Release.gpg
<pitti> bah, I don't want to rewrite half of soyuz for that
<lool> Bah we can't really make it fully race free anyway
<tseliot> pitti: http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=122139
<directhex> tseliot, nice timing, nvidia :/
<tseliot> directhex: will need an SRU (sooner or later)
<directhex> tseliot, was that the missing piece causing the nvidia->nv thing?
<tseliot> directhex: yep
<tseliot> 96 and 71
<directhex> so 71 still needs an update?
<tseliot> no, they have updated that too
<tseliot> they are beta drivers though
<directhex> could be worse. i have some nvidia kit that locks up on any driver other than 171.06.01
<tseliot> :-/
<directhex> gets detected fine with anythign 8800gtx-happy, but locks up when actually using it
<directhex> 10:00.0 3D controller: nVidia Corporation Tesla S870 (Compute Server Component) (rev a2)
<tseliot> did you report the problem?
<tseliot> (to nvidia)
<directhex> to nvidia? no point. technically it's the only driver they show as supported
<directhex> try picking the S870 on nvidia.com
<directhex> which, of course, is dumb, since the big pull for tesla is meant to be it uses normal drivers
<directhex> i blame the silly approach to PCI busses it has
<directhex> [jms@durandal ~]$ /sbin/lspci | grep Tesla | grep -c "PCI bridge"
<directhex> 10
<tseliot> what's the output of this command? lspci -n |grep 300
<directhex> nothing
<tseliot> ???
<mvo> hey tseliot!
<tseliot> mvo: hi :-)
<tseliot> directhex: what do you mean by "nothing"?
<directhex> tseliot, nothing.
<directhex> [jms@durandal ~]$ /sbin/lspci -n | grep 300
<directhex> [jms@durandal ~]$
<mvo> tseliot: I just read about a new translation of "the waste land" this morning :)
<directhex> tseliot, technically tesla has no vga out, so it sorta makes sense for it not to be a vga controller
<tseliot> mvo: did you enjoy it?
<tseliot> aah read "about"
<mvo> tseliot: but of course I have something more serious going on too, have you ever seen something lik ethis https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/290638 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290638 in update-manager "kubuntu upgrade error" [Undecided,New]
 * tseliot has a look
<mvo> tseliot: I just read about it, never read it myself, but it sounded fascinating! are you a fan (I would guess so)?
<tseliot> mvo: yes, hence my nickname
<tseliot> mvo: maybe this line didn't work? if dpkg-divert --list 'nvidia-glx-new' | grep /usr/lib32/libGL.so.1
<tseliot> hmm...
<tseliot> directhex: I get something like this: 01:00.0 0300: 10de:02e2 (rev a2)
<directhex> tseliot, so do i, but not on the tesla box
<mvo> tseliot: I think its not wide-spread, I test it on two different systems and both times nvidia-glx-new upgraded fine from hardy to intrepid, but I think this failure is real too - we just need to figure out what triggers it
<tseliot> davmor2: did you install the nvidia driver from NVIDIA's website too?
<tseliot> mvo: right
<tseliot> directhex: weird...
<tseliot> directhex: I'm still convinced that you problem is worth reporting to nvidia
<tseliot> directhex: if driver 177 can be loaded using your card and it locks up then it's a bug
<tseliot> in the sense that it shouldn't load at all or that it shouldn't lock up when loaded
<directhex> hm, intrepid seems a bit screwy on my laptop. how odd
<directhex> compiz is a complete failure on here. how disappointing, it's worked for years
<Tonio_> hi
<Tonio_> I have a little problem with repository signing...
<davmor2> tseliot: no it was the nvidia driver from jockey
<Tonio_> the repo is signed, the key imported to my laptop, and aptÂ§get update downloads the Release.gpg, and doesn't complain the key is missing
<Tonio_> but when I want to install a package from that repo, apt complains the package is unauthenticated....
<Tonio_> am I missing something ? should work afaik....
<mvo> Tonio_: might be proxy issues, you could try to move away the stuff in /var/lib/apt/lists/* to see if that helps
<Tonio_> mvo: I have no proxy set for apt, but I'll try this
<Tonio_> mvo: I had the same problem on one computer and it started to work with no reason after a couple of hours...
<tseliot> davmor2: I didn't mean the last driver that you installed. Have you ever installed the driver from nvidia's website in that Ubuntu installation?
<Tonio_> mvo: didn't help I'm affraid.....
<mvo> Tonio_: you could try to run: "sudo apt-get update -o Acquire::http::No-Cache=true" and see if that helps, it might be transparent proxy
<davmor2> tseliot: no it was a fresh install
<Tonio_> mvo: hum I think there is a reverse proxy indeed... let's try this
<tseliot> davmor2: ok, so you installed Hardy and then upgraded to Intrepid, right?
<mvo> the line "nvidia-glx-new is not properly installed - ignoring any dependencies on it." makes me wonder whats going on there
<davmor2> tseliot: I installed hardy did all the updates, rebooted and then added the nvidia-glx-new driver from jockey-kde, rebooted and then upgraded to intrepid
<Tonio_> mvo: still no luck :/
<Tonio_> mvo: I've never seen that problem, this is weird, really
 * davmor2 checks to see if he still has the lshw on this machine
<pitti> tseliot: nice; do they have an updated 71, too?
<tseliot> mvo, davmor2: yes, something wrong happened in Hardy then
<tseliot> pitti: yep
<mvo> Tonio_: could you run "sudo apt-get update -o Debug::Acquire::http=true" and put the output somewhere ? that will record the http traffic and might give us clues
<davmor2> tseliot, mvo: lshw should be at http://www.davmor2.co.uk/64test.html
<Tonio_> mvo: well on a native intrepid computer I don't have the issue, so I suspect there is something broken somewhere on that laptop.... trying to reinstall and eventually try as you said if it doesn't work
<Tonio_> mvo: thanks for the help given :)
<tseliot> davmor2: what I meant is that maybe nvidia-glx-new wasn't installed correctly for some reason
<tseliot> in Hardy
<mvo> davmor2: you were able to reproduce that, right?
<tseliot> davmor2: since dpkg said that "nvidia-glx-new is not properly installed - ignoring any dependencies on it"
<mvo> davmor2: did you install it via jockey?
<pitti> asac: hm, wasn't there a time when firefox would ask me to install flash? (I have a clean intrepid installation)
<asac> pitti: only if you visit a site that doesnt use the flash-detection-kit
<asac> pitti: try video.google.com
<pitti> asac: hm, I could have sworn it worked on youtube before
<davmor2> mvo: yeap
<mvo> davmor2: with the kubuntu jockey?
<davmor2> mvo: yeap
<asac> pitti: no it never worked there.. however, once you have a first Ã¼plugin installed you can use the "tools -> manage content plugins ..." to switch plugins and install more alternatives ... give it a try
<tseliot> mvo: is it a known problem with the kubuntu jockey?
<davmor2> mvo, tseliot: how about this then if I reinstall kubuntu hardy and get the apt.logs from that before upgrade would that help?
<mvo> davmor2: *maybe* there is something wrong with it that causes the problem, or maybe its something like that it reports that the install finished too early and you shut down while it was working - to throw out some theories :)
<pitti> asac: ah, thanks
<mvo> tseliot: not that I know of
<davmor2> mvo: no it finishes and say system requires reboot
<davmor2> it is at that point that I reboot
<mvo> davmor2: right, I was wondering if it might display this notification too early for some reason (again, just a theory)
<tseliot> davmor2: but yes, the logs could be useful
<davmor2> mvo: pass I can try it again and leave it for 10 minutes before rebooting see if that helps either way I'll reinstall it now :)
<mvo> davmor2: excellent, thanks a lot
<dholbach> hi sabdfl! happy release day! :)
<ogra> sabdfl, come to #ubuntu-release-party :)
<ogra> though they might run you down :)
<mvo> davmor2: aother test might be to install the nvidia module manually via apt-get and see if you expeirnece the same failure in this case
<davmor2> mvo: wilko, I'll do it via jockey first for the log and then try that after :)
<mvo> davmor2: thanks a lot!
 * mvo hugs davmor2
<Hobbsee> ogra: yeah, they probably will, come to think of it
<Hobbsee> but that might be enjoyable
<ogra> lol
<davmor2> asac: dude the homepage is still kinda sparse ;)
<asac> davmor2: i am not doing the homepage ;)
<asac> thats the website team ;)
<davmor2> Ah cool
<cjwatson> davmor2: totem/bbc seems to be fixed now
<davmor2> cjwatson: Yay
<davmor2> cjwatson: get much sleep?
<cjwatson> a few hours
<davmor2> mvo, tseliot: right doing the updates now do you want a log pre-nvidia install?
<mvo> davmor2: yes please, /var/log/dpkg.log is probably most helpful, if there is a /var/log/apt/term.log too, that too
<davmor2> no probs
<davmor2> mvo: term.log is empty all the other logs will be going to http://www.davmor2.co.uk/h-k-logs/
<mvo> davmor2: did you wait a bit or reboot immediately this time?
<davmor2> mvo: this is pre-nvidia install I'll be doing that in a second
<mvo> davmor2: ok, thanks
<davmor2> dpkg.log should be up and accessible
<davmor2> mvo: installing now
<didrocks> mvo: I noticed a lot of (250 on a basic installation) "_usr_share_...png" icon names in /usr/share/app-install/icons/. Is that wanted? (which has more than 3000 files)
<davmor2> mvo, tseliot: Right dpkg1.log up jockey window is open and says reboot but dpkg1.log says half configured
<tseliot> davmor2: can we see the log?
<davmor2> tseliot: http://www.davmor2.co.uk/h-k-logs/ is where I'll be putting all the logs
<mvo> davmor2: ok, if you now wait a bit, does that change anything?
<mvo> i.e. does it update it?
<mvo> tseliot: does jocky write some logs somewhere?
<davmor2> mvo: no entry beyond the 11:20:43
<tseliot> mvo: AFAIK it writes logs only in debug mode, right pitti?
<pitti> ATM yes
<mvo> davmor2: hm, "2008-10-30 11:20:43 status installed nvidia-glx-new 169.12+2.6.24.14-21.51" <- that looks good actually
<pitti> I recently opened a wishlist bug to always write one, with log rotation
<pitti> makes things so much easier
 * tseliot nods
<davmor2> mvo: safe too reboot then?
<mvo> davmor2: what does "dpkg -l nvidia-glx-new" tell you ?
<mvo> davmor2: yeah
<danbh_intrepid> bug 286175
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286175 in fontconfig "evince crashed with SIGSEGV in FcConfigSubstituteWithPat()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286175
<davmor2> mvo: http://www.davmor2.co.uk/h-k-logs/dpkg-l.txt
<davmor2> rebooting
<mvo> thanks davmor2, looks fine
<joaopinto> for users eager to get 8.10 final, it should be safe to run update-manager -d now, right ?
<davmor2> mvo, tseliot: Right rebooted.  Screen is now correct resolution, size and position.
<danbh_intrepid> joaopinto: its just update-manager           -d isnt necessary after release
<davmor2> mvo: no change to the dpkg.log
<davmor2> mvo: shall I go for the upgrade now?
<tseliot> davmor2: does this command say anything? sudo dpkg --configure -a
<joaopinto> danbh_intrepid, right now -d is still needed right ? Or is it already set as released ?
<ogra> it isnt, watch #ubuntu-release-party :)
<davmor2> tseliot: nope
<joaopinto> so my question is related to using -d now :P
<tseliot> davmor2: ok, good. You shouldn't have problems with the dist-upgrade now
<ogra> joaopinto, yes, you still need -d until its released
<davmor2> tseliot, mvo: Right upgrade in progress ping you when it's done
<tseliot> ok, thanks
<davmor2> mvo, tseliot: ping http://www.davmor2.co.uk/h-k-logs/Error.png
<tseliot> davmor2: logs?
<davmor2> tseliot: do you want them now or at the end of the upgrade?
<tseliot> davmor2: let it complete the upgrade
<davmor2> okay
<highvoltage> there's some weird people on ubuntu-devel-discuss sometimes.
<Treenaks> highvoltage: But mc should be on the CD!
<highvoltage> Treenaks: hah!
<Treenaks> ;)
<davmor2> tseliot, mvo: dpkg2.log is up an others you want/need?
<tseliot> davmor2: thanks I'll have a look at it ASAP
 * tseliot > lunch
<pitti> seb128: FYI, I stopped the retracers (well, most were already ^C'ed), since I'm working on ddebs.u.c. index generation
<pitti> seb128: this should now be much more robust, so that we'll hopefully lose much fewer ddebs and don't run into locking issues any more
<seb128> pitti: ok thanks, they are not really useful right now anyway since we don't have apport running by default
<seb128> pitti: good
<liw> command-not-found primarily finds out commands/packages relationships from Contents files, yes?
<mvo> thanks davmor2
<davmor2> mvo: any thing else you're likely to need?
<mvo> liw: I scan the archive regularly and generate shorter contents file out of it
<mvo> liw: it does a bit more too, simple alternatives scanning for example
<mvo> (update-alternatives)
<liw> mvo, so the reason it suggests system-cleaner is in system-cleaner is because the database is out of date?
<mvo> liw: yes
<liw> mvo, when does it get updated? for the point release?
<mvo> liw: we should do a SRU for it
<mvo> let me prepare that
<liw> ook, thanks
<mvo> liw: would be nice if you could file a bug and help with the sru paperwork
<liw> mvo, will 290444 do?
<mvo> bug #290444
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290444 in system-cleaner "Running "system-cleaner" from the command line is wrong" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/290444
<mvo> liw: yes
<liw> mvo, can I reassign that to command-not-found-data?
<mvo> yes
<liw> now I just need to learn how to do that
<liw> "Also affects project"?
<Hobbsee> liw: also affects distribution, if you mean the ubuntu package
<liw> Hobbsee, oh, so that's what that is, I thought it was ubuntu vs debian vs red hat vs etc
<Hobbsee> liw: it is, but you can specify the source package.
<cjwatson> if you want to reassign a bug rather than saying that it affects *both* system-cleaner and command-not-found-data, you should use the drop-down rather than also affects distribution
<liw> cjwatson, the... drop-down?
<pitti> liw: click on the status or priority
<Hobbsee> liw: little down arrows
<pitti> liw: with the little down arrows
<liw> oh, the eject button
<pitti> doesn't that usually go upwards? :)
<liw> pitti, given how cavalier web pages are with symbols, should I care about the direction? :)
<pitti> liw: hey, I'm not claiming that it is utterly discoverable, or I like it, or so :)
<Hobbsee> liw: i'm told it's definetly *not* an eject button
<Hobbsee> :)
<directhex> Hobbsee, i don't find that icon ambiguous. i had never realised that the yellow pencil icon was a pencil, though
<slangasek> superm1: ping
<joaopinto> cloning a system into a directory using rsync and then upgrading it from a chroot should be reliable for testing ?
<tseliot> davmor2: can you upload the files that you have in /var/log/dist-upgrade/ ?
<slangasek> superm1: around?  we're converging, and http://mythbuntu.org/8.10/release will need to be unembargoed fairly soon if I'm to include it in the announce mail
<cody-somerville> slangasek, http://xubuntu.org/news/intrepid/release will be our release page announcement
<slangasek> how soon will it be? :)
<directhex> i spy release images on my local mirror
<cody-somerville> slangasek, please let me know when we're about to release so that I can quickly migrate our website
<slangasek> cody-somerville: we're about to release :-P
<cody-somerville> eck
<Mirv> heh, I guess I could to the web site rehauls as well, then (ubuntu-fi.org)
<Mirv> do, that is
<superm1> slangasek, dont include it in the announce mail.  the umenu thing ended up still being trouble so we're gonna be ~1day late it looks
<slangasek> superm1: ack
<slangasek> mvo: ping
<mvo> slangasek: pong
<slangasek> mvo: hi, is there another meta-release update that needs to be done for the final release?
<mvo> slangasek: yes, when the release is officially out, the meta-release file needs to be updated to include intrepid. this is prepared in bzr, it just needs to be copied in place (that is currently done manual)
<mvo> slangasek: but its "cp meta-release-bzr/meta-release www/"
<slangasek> mvo: ok, please do :)
<tseliot> pitti: I think I know how to fix the treeview bug in jockey-gtk but I can't make it display the icon in the systray. Is there a way to do this?
<tseliot> pitti: and yes, I removed /var/cache/jockey
<pitti> tseliot: removing /var/cache/jockey/check and jockey-gtk --check should do it
<pitti> tseliot: if that returns immediately, then it doens't find any drivers
<tseliot> pitti: aah it was "--check"
<mvo> slangasek: done and verified that it works
<slangasek> mvo: thanks
<mvo> (people still need to explicitely trigger it via software-properties-gtk because of lts->non-lts upgrade)
 * mvo has done this a couple of times now, but every single time is exciting
 * slangasek grins
<ogra> slangasek, geeez
<slangasek> wot? :)
<ogra> kicking off the masees :)
<cjwatson> slangasek: congratulations
* slangasek changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 8.10 released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-hardy, #ubuntu+1 for intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs || Evil bug 286175
<james_w> congratulations everyone. congratulations slangasek. And thank you.
<slangasek> great job, everyone :)
 * pitti jumps for joy
<davmor2> congrats everyone it's out :)
<nxvl> slangasek: we have a release already?
 * ogra dances
<ogra> nxvl, we do ! :)
<directhex> Checking for a new ubuntu release
<directhex> No new release found
<directhex> LIES!
<StevenK> directhex: Because Hardy is LTD
<soren> So when does Jaunty open? :)
<StevenK> LTS
<joaopinto> directhex, have you switch to non LTS ?
<nxvl> \o/
<nxvl> i just make it to the unofficial annouce
<nxvl> \o/
<nxvl> congratulations everyone
<mvo> directhex: check http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/upgrading
<jdstrand> slangasek: fyi-- I assigned bug #291091 to you
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 291091 in pam "passwd -e locks account" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/291091
<jdstrand> slangasek: it just came in and is a result of the changes in common-account
<jdstrand> slangasek: I assigned it to you cause of your pam-auth-update fu
<directhex> mvo, oh, hm. clever. i'm just used to handing a -c to update-manager
<pitti> directhex: what's even worse -- dist-upgrade to jaunty doesn't work!!11!
<directhex> pitti, whyso?
<Koon> \o/
<directhex> oh, wait, JAUNTY
<pitti> stable releases are soo boring :-P
<mvo> directhex: no problem -d will work as well, but in +6month you will get a hardy->jaunts update this way ;)
<mvo> directhex: hm, probably even earlier .)
<directhex> mvo, yay, jaunty!
<pitti> mvo: why do we support hardy->jaunty (which we don't usually), but not hardy->intrepid?
<slangasek> jdstrand: right, nijaba already prodded about that and I asked him to subscribe me; thanks
 * directhex has Plans(tm) for jaunty
<jdstrand> slangasek: interesting-- he asked me to look at it *shrug*
<slangasek> <shrug. :)
<directhex> wake me when jaunty opens, i wanted to have a package downgraded to universe
<mvo> pitti: we don't sorry, I think what I said was misleading. "update-manager -d" will bring people from hardy to intrepid too (in addition to the way via software-propoerties"
<pitti> mvo: right, I meant why would u-n announce jaunty in hardy?
<jdstrand> lamont: debdiffs attached to bug #277370 and bug #289060
<mvo> pitti: I was thinking we might do that later (not automatically, only for people using update-manager -d) to test upgrades from hardy->jaunty (I talked about it with riddell earlier because of kde3->kde4 changes he may want people to skip intrepid
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 277370 in bind9 "apparmor exception missing for keytab" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/277370
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289060 in bind9 "named bind9 apparmor profile error " [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289060
<lamont> jdstrand: thanks
<jdstrand> lamont: hard to test ipv6 one since it's busted though ;)
<lamont> heh
<lamont> just add __GNU_SOURCE to CFLAGS et al :-)
 * lamont will test the ipv6 stuff
<jdstrand> lamont: it was the 'et al' that prevented it ;)
<jdstrand> lamont: fyi, I updated the test case in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/ServerInstall#Bind9 so we can catch this type of thing sooner
<lamont> +               STD_CDEFINES="$STD_CDEFINES -D_GNU_SOURCE"
<lamont> +               CPPFLAGS="$CPPFLAGS -D_GNU_SOURCE"
<nijaba> jdstrand: I had thought slangasek might have wanted to know about it asap...  sorry
<evand> mvo: Any thoughts on what could be causing bug 290925?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290925 in ubiquity ""only free software" option installs linux-restricted-modules" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/290925
<jdstrand> nijaba: np-- it's triaged
<mvo> evand: looking
<evand> thanks
<mvo> evand: do you have the system in front of you were you ran the commands?
<evand> yes
<mvo> evand: I suspect its because sources.list contains "de.archive.ubuntu.com" but the livecd copies "archive.ubuntu.com_..." to /var/lib/apt/lists" - does that make sense, i.e. does your sources.list (in target) has a mirror and /var/lib/apt/lists/ indexfiles that are not matching it?
<evand> checking
<mvo> evand: hm, but why its written in target without the restircted/base into /v/l/d/status is odd, especially since a bunch of other packages seems to have the correct section
<davmor2> tseliot, mvo: there up now I'll just check you can access them
<evand> mvo: in my case it's us.archive, but yes, I see what you mean
<mvo> evand: could you rename the in-target indexfiles and see if that gives the right python-apt output please?
<evand> mvo: will do
<mvo> thanks!
<davmor2> yeap should be fine
<tseliot> davmor2, mvo: here's the error: dpkg-divert: error checking `/usr/lib32/libGL.so.1': No such file or directory
<tseliot> I'll check nvidia-glx-new
<mvo> davmor2: ohhh, this is amd64? that explains why I have not seen it :( I tested i386 when trying to reproduce (*head desk*)
<pitti> mvo: I reject your compiz upload, there are no bugs referenced in the changelog
<s0u][ight> hello i have a better workaround for Cannot reactivate Intel 3945/4965 wireless if booting with killswitch enabled
<s0u][ight> the site says that you have to reboot with the rfkillswitch disabled
<s0u][ight> my way: disabling the rfkillswitch when the driver iwlagn is loaded then reload the driver
<s0u][ight> works fine ;)
<s0u][ight> if this is not the right place for workarounds for known issues, where should i go?
<mvo> pitti: d'oh, sorry, fixing now
<cjwatson> s0u][ight: bug report on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-release-notes/+bugs
<s0u][ight> cjwatson: this is a known bug
<s0u][ight> i just have a better workaround
<cjwatson> s0u][ight: if it's already a bug on that list, then add a comment to it
<cjwatson> s0u][ight: I think perhaps you misunderstand the purpose of the bug list above
<cjwatson> s0u][ight: that list tracks problems in the release notes themselves
<s0u][ight> ok
<s0u][ight> but i'm not familiar with these things
<mvo> evand: please keep me updated, I'm curious about this myself
<doko> binutils_2.19-0ubuntu1 rejected: unable to find distroseries: jaunty ;p
<cjwatson> doko: elmo tried to create it and got an OOPS from LP
<cjwatson> he's going to chase it up when he gets a few minutes
<evand> mvo: will do.  I messed the system up so I am in the middle of a reinstall now.
<cjwatson> doko: thanks for being proactive though ;-)
<s0u][ight> cjwatson: it isn't there
<pitti> mvo: oh, is that bug 259385 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 259385 in compiz "Intrepid Compiz hangs on login for i830MG and i845 video cards" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/259385
<cjwatson> s0u][ight: then file a new bug there
<mvo> pitti: yes
<mvo> Riddell: did you had a chance to release note the virtualbox-ose problem with kubuntu upgrades?
<cjwatson> mvo: that got fixed
<mvo> oh? excellent!
<cjwatson> mvo: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/virtualbox-ose top entry
<mvo> cjwatson: that is really good news, thanks
 * mvo hugs blueyed (in his absence)
<s0u][ight> cjwatson: found the bug and posted a reply
<broonie> aa/win 19
<Treenaks> broonie: aa/fail :)
<joaopinto> <n8tuser> weirdo-> please your language...btw use a fresh install instead of upgrade <- related to our discussion yesterday
<tseliot> pitti: I have just fixed bug 278071: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~albertomilone/jockey/jockey-generic/revision/480
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 278071 in jockey "jockey-gtk weird installed driver display" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/278071
 * Treenaks wonders why everyone keeps doing fresh installs, while I've been upgrading since hoary..
<jdong> Treenaks: likewise.
<pitti> tseliot: nice!
<pitti> tseliot: uh, we need to do the entire initialization every time? that sounds quite expensive
<pitti> tseliot: I hoped we could make the icon disappear when clicking on it, or os
<pitti> s/os/so/
<pitti> anyway, I need to run out for 45 mins
<tseliot> pitti: ok, we'll talk later then
<joaopinto> Treenaks, general perception of greater chances of having problems
<Treenaks> joaopinto: people are too used to other OSes :)
<evand> mvo: I'm assuming it's sufficient to rename the archive.ubuntu.com lists in /var/lib/apt/lists and then run than chunk of python again?  If so, it did not fix the problem.
<mvo> evand: you may (but be sure) remove the (in-target) /var/cache/apt/pkgcache.bin too
<mvo> but it should get this right automatically
<mvo> evand: where can I select "free software only" ? I think I would like to install it here in a VM to have a look
<evand> mvo: hit f6 twice
<evand> mvo: removing pkgcache.bin did not help
<evand> mvo: this is off the desktop CD, if that wasn't clear
<rtg> superm1: phone call today?
<mvo> evand: ok, thanks, I run it now, I hope kvm does not hate me today (as it did yesterday)
<evand> haha, very much appreciated
<evand> you'll know it works if apt-setup/restricted is set to false
<evand> er worked
<evand> the selection of the free software option, that is
 * cjwatson creates jaunty seeds
<jdong> sounds sexy :)
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: I couldn't do xubuntu.jaunty because I'm not in ~xubuntu-dev; please bzr branch xubuntu.intrepid xubuntu.jaunty; cd xubuntu.jaunty; bzr push lp:~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.jaunty; bzr bind lp:~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.jaunty
<cjwatson> superm1: I couldn't do mythbuntu.jaunty because I'm not in ~mythbuntu; please bzr branch mythbuntu.intrepid mythbuntu.jaunty; cd mythbuntu.jaunty; bzr push lp:~mythbuntu/ubuntu-seeds/mythbuntu.jaunty; bzr bind lp:~mythbuntu/ubuntu-seeds/mythbuntu.jaunty
<superm1> cjwatson, okay will do
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, okay will do
<cjwatson> thanks
<lool> thanks for doing mobile.jaunty :)
<mvo> evand: I followed up in the bug, I hope my explaination makes sense
<bdmurray> pitti: are package available in -proposed now?
<rtg> kirkland: why doesn't the live CD offer the Private directory like the alternate does?
<kirkland> rtg: 2 reasons, I think
<cjwatson> rtg: I didn't get to it
<cjwatson> it should
<kirkland> rtg: 1) cjwatson/evand didn't find a UI that fit the livecd workflow to Ubuntu standards/satisfaction
<rtg> ok. how is the name obfuscation coming?
<rtg> you mentioned several weeks ago that he was working on it.
<kirkland> rtg: 2) i didn't help/push it more, in that I think I'll have plenty of support requests to sift through with the slightly-more-advanced users that figure out how to do it by dropping to a command prompt in the desktop :-)
<Chipzz> hrrrm
<rtg> kirkland: file/directory name obfuscation?
<Chipzz> is there any reason ubuntu doesn't ship the make info pages?
<Chipzz> lemme guess... DFSG bullshit?
<pitti> bdmurray: yes
<kirkland> rtg: let me find you a git tree....
<azeem> Chipzz: apt-get install make-doc?
<kirkland> rtg: it's coming along
<rtg> kirkland: cool, just checking.
<Chipzz> so errm
<kirkland> rtg: last i saw, they were trying to get symlinks working properly ;-)
<cjwatson> Chipzz: as an organisation, we have no objection to shipping those pages; however it hasn't always been worth repackaging things to diverge from Debian on this where they've already created separate packages
<kirkland> rtg: for obvious reasons, that involves a new layer of complexity :-)
<Chipzz> $ apt-cache showsrc make | grep ^Binary
<Chipzz> Binary: make
<rtg> kirkland: indeed, there is likely some black magic involved.
<cjwatson> apt-cache search -n ^make
<tseliot> pitti: the problem is that when jockey updated the treeview it simply appended a new column, hence our treeview bug
<kirkland> rtg: Oct 24 11:19:57 <mhalcrow>      kirkland: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/ecryptfs/ecryptfs-filename-crypto-2.6.27-rc7-20081024.txt
<kirkland> rtg: that was a snapshot of the patch from earlier in the week
<evand> mvo: thanks, I'll check it out in a bit
<Kano> hi, could you set packages.ubuntu.com to intrepid?
<rtg> kirkland: I wonder if it'll require an underlying filesystem with xattrs
<kirkland> rtg: almost certainly
<Chipzz> cjwatson: right. while I can understand your pov, I think debian is being anal with their dfsg... but anyway, thx for the pointer
<Chipzz> should have looked more closely I guess
<rtg> kirkland: fortunately we set CONFIG_EXT3_FS_XATTR=y
<kirkland> rtg: if you have any interest in discussing the design/implementation details with mhalcrow, he's quite passionate about it, and would be glad to chat
<rtg> kirkland: well, that would require that I get smart about it, and I'm not sure I have that kind of time :)
<kirkland> rtg: ;-)
<Chipzz> btw, congratulations on the release! :)
<kirkland> rtg: yeah, i'm handling most of the userspace side for him now, which has freed him up to concentrate more on the kernel side
<kirkland> rtg: he has another kernel developer, tyhicks that's working on it with him
<kirkland> rtg: they're also trying to fix a real bugger of a problem, getting it to work properly on networked mounted (nfs, cifs) filesystems
<rtg> kirkland: good to know. guess I'll go back to herding cats in the wireless arena.
<kirkland> rtg: ;-)  np
<joaopinto> I am experiencing bug 291161, is there any visible syntax problem with the resolv.conf file ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 291161 in bind9 "nslookup: parse of /etc/resolv.conf failed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/291161
<joaopinto> I didn't had this problem with Hardy
<joaopinto> anyone familiar with the changes on dnsutils  ?
<hunger> Congatulations to the release!
<kirkland> rtg: tyhicks> kirkland: filenamecrypto branch of git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/mhalcrow/ecryptfs.git
<rtg> kirkland: cloning
<kirkland> rtg: a new userspace ecryptfs-utils will be required too;  i'll merge that for jaunty as soon as the archive re-opens
<kirkland> rtg: or, you can pass the options manually on the mount options (easier)
<rtg> kirkland: I'll look you up at UDS about it.
<kirkland> rtg: deal ;-)
<seb128> evand, cjwatson: where is the code for the ubiquity partitioner bar?
<seb128> rhythmbox guys are asking because they are interested to use something similar so they are looking around for existant implementation of such widget
<cjwatson> seb128: ubiquity/segmented_bar.py
<cjwatson> in the ubiquity source
<seb128> thanks
<kirkland> rtg: basically: ecryptfs_sig=7fa06f4b66fcde02,ecryptfs_cipher=aes,ecryptfs_key_bytes=16,ecryptfs_fnek_sig=7fa06f4b66fcde02,ecryptfs_passthrough,rw,noauto
<kirkland> rtg: ecryptfs_fnek_sig = signature of the filename encryption key
<kirkland> rtg: in this case, same, for simplicity
<cjwatson> seb128: originally from the Hyena UI library in Banshee, Evan sayd
<cjwatson> says
<rtg> kirkland: urk! it really needs an app helper then.
<seb128> cjwatson: ok, I think they looked at banshee but the code is C#, they are trying to figure if there is a C version somewhere ;-)
<kirkland> rtg: i'm going to handle all of that in ecryptfs-utils ;-)
<cjwatson> seb128: yeah, we can't help there; if there were a C version in some common library we might well want to use it though :)
<Cheard> paste from #ubuntu: i just wanted to again thank the developers and support for this great release (in addition to all the kernel, package and WM devs). 8.10 is without a doubt, the best ubuntu release, yet
<\sh> who has some insights into usb-creator? I just pushed the live cd iso i386 image onto a kingston datatraveller 1GB stick...and my thinkpad r60 tells me: invalid or damanged bootable partition
<maxb_> Sort of on that note, is it documented anywhere why usb-creator installs using an .iso, rather that just putting a vanilla ubuntu install onto the usbstick? I suppose it's hardware driver related?
<MaximLevitsky> How I can run a script on gnome shutdown?
<MaximLevitsky> I need to stop azureus
<MaximLevitsky> Can't see anything useful on google
<thom> MaximLevitsky: try #ubuntu for support
<MaximLevitsky> I tried there
<MaximLevitsky> This is advanced question
<Pici> This is not a support channel.
<thom> doesn't matter, this is not a support channel
<MaximLevitsky> I know, sorry
<Pici> MaximLevitsky: Just be patient in #ubuntu, its busy due to the Intrepid release. :)
<MaximLevitsky> It was released?
<iulian> Yes, today and we should take a nap.
<MaximLevitsky> Great!
<MaximLevitsky> I thought that few more days are left for release
<bdmurray> pitti: I'm still not seeing the -proposed version of rhythmbox fwiw
<pitti> bdmurray: hm, it's on https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rhythmbox
<pitti> bdmurray: it built, too; seems to be a soyuz problem with publishing them, or so
<pitti> bdmurray: other packages are there, just RB is missing
<pitti> bdmurray: for now I'd blame general slowness due to release traffic
<pitti> bdmurray: I'll check again tomorrow
<bdmurray> pitti: of course, the one I was going to verify is missing ;-)
<directhex> failed upgrade.
<directhex> not sure why though. rebuilding all UUID stuff in menu.lst and fstab, and running update-grub, was enough
 * pochu congrats everybody for the Intrepid release \o/
<pcc1> is aggregated hwdb data available anywhere?
<pcc1> is the source code for http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/ publicly available?
<mpt> pcc1, I don't know where the code is for hwdb.ubuntu.com is, but its successor will be part of Launchpad, which will be open source within a year
<Mithrandir> mpt: the hwdb will be open source or lp itself?
<mpt> both
<Mithrandir> mpt: as in all of it?
<Mithrandir> (and are you on record saying this?)
<siretart> Mithrandir: that has been mentioned already various times on #launchpad by various lp devs
<mpt> erm, this is nothing new
<mpt> http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2008/07/23/mark-shuttleworth-launchpad-to-be-open-source-in-12-months
<Mithrandir> it's new enough that at least I haven't seen it before.
<Mithrandir> but then, I pay less attention to LP stuff than I used to
<ajmitch> Mithrandir: you've been cut off from the world :)
<ajmitch> good to see you around, btw
<wgrant> Mithrandir: They didn't actually publicise it anywhere... I only heard about it by noticing a link on some other Canonical-related article.
<wgrant> I was rather surprised, gtiven that it would surely have markedly improved Launchpad's image.
<pwnguin> it seemed like a sort of slip of the tongue more than an intentional plan
<wgrant> pwnguin: That was my first thought too.
<Mithrandir> wgrant: I'd have assumed planets should have picked it up.
<Mithrandir> apparently, they didn't
<wgrant> I think there might have been a mention or two...
<wgrant> But nothing like I would have expected.
<ogra> argh, the return of libflashsupport
 * ogra just notices it got imported from debin
<ogra> *debian
<ogra> flashplugin-nonfree-extrasound
<ogra> asac, ^^^
<ogra> luckily nothing uses it by default
<asac> ogra: what?
<asac> lol
<asac> damn thing ;)
<asac> just want to go away
<ogra> yeah
<pitti> tseliot: so, the problem is that multiple clicks on the icon cause ui_show_main() to be called several times
<pitti> tseliot: I'll add a test case to ensure that this will be sufficiently idempotent, and then fix it to not append the columns again
<tseliot> pitti: yes, that's the problem. While in kde we can simply clear the treeview and start filling it with items the same is not true for gtk.
<tseliot> pitti: do you want to block the app after the 1st click on the icon?
<pitti> tseliot: I'd like the icon to go away
<pitti> tseliot: but nevertheless you shold be able to call ui_show_main() multiple times without damage
<pitti> so I'd like to fix both
<tseliot> pitti: aah, you want the icon to go away after you have clicked on it
<tseliot> pitti: let me know how it goes
<pitti> tseliot: in gtk I plan to call get_columns(), and if that already has stuff, don't init it again
<tseliot> pitti: just make sure that it actually refreshes the treeview after you install something
<pitti> tseliot: ok, got nice test cases (which explicitly test the column counts, too), KDE is fine
<tseliot> good
<pitti> ui_show_main() idempotency ... ok
<pitti> \o/
<tseliot> congrats ;)
<pitti> tseliot: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jockey-hackers/jockey/trunk/revision/499 FYI
 * pitti is a test case fetishist
<tseliot> hehe
<pitti> oh, speaking of fetishes -- http://xkcd.com/468/
<tseliot> pitti: but won't get_columns() return an empty list? Maybe try with ifÂ len(self.treeview.get_columns()) == 0:
<pitti> tseliot: yes, it will
<pitti> tseliot: in Python, [] is considered "false"
<pitti> tseliot: None, [], set(), (), 0, and False
<pitti> oh, and ''
<tseliot> pitti: aaah
<tseliot> ok then
<pitti> tseliot: but yes, it would be a little more readable, I guess
<pitti> old habit (and laziness)
<tseliot> pitti: I was expecting a NoneType object but yes, whatever you prefer
<pitti> good night everyone
<tseliot> good night
<ajmitch> night pitti
<ogra> pitti, enjoy your spare day tomorrow :)
<glatzor> jcastro, hello
<glatzor> jcastro, have got recieved my email?
<glatzor> jcastro, I just want to confirm my participation in foss camp and uds
<ogra> yay
<ogra> great to hear
<bryce> heya glatzor
<glatzor> hello bryce !
<glatzor> evening ogra!
<ogra> :)
<bryce> ogasawara: when you get a chance could you look at bug 279999?  This is a handless mouse device henrik lent me, but it seems to be not functioning at some layer below X (maybe kernel or hal)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 279999 in hal "NaturalPoint SmartNav4 support" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/279999
<ogasawara> bryce: sure
<jdstrand> kees: re bug #291091-- I didn't want to mess with it too much cause of all of slangasek's pam-auth-update magic
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 291091 in pam "passwd -e locks account" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/291091
<Hobbsee> morning all
<ogasawara> bryce: for bug 279999, just curious if anything it spit out to dmesg when you plug in the device?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 279999 in hal "NaturalPoint SmartNav4 support" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/279999
<bryce> ogasawara: yep:
<bryce> [714855.492077] usb 4-3: new high speed USB device using ehci_hcd and address 2
<bryce> [714856.320559] usb 4-3: string descriptor 0 read error: -22
<bryce> [714856.320683] usb 4-3: string descriptor 0 read error: -22
<bryce> [714856.321530] usb 4-3: configuration #1 chosen from 1 choice
<nixternal> anyone able to explain why I can't ls /foo/bar/blah when I copy and paste, but if I manually type it and tab complete it works?
<nixternal> I am have issues with my ant build scripts that worked yesterday, but today they don't, and the only update I got was base-files since then
<soren> nixternal: Did you type that or cut and paste it?
<soren> nixternal: And what error do you get?
<nixternal> if I cut and paste it, i get the following error:
<nixternal> ls: cannot access /home/rjohnson/cleversafe/svn/swdev_mgmt/trunk/driveswap/output/build/SOURCES/dsnet-driveswap-1.0.tar.gz: No such file or directory
<soren> nixternal: If you first tab-complete your way to a functioning command line, can you copy and paste it then?
<nixternal> no
<soren> nixternal: /me blames KDE or something :)
<nixternal> soren: ahh, I found it
<nixternal> for some reason
<nixternal> that swdev_mgmt is now swdev-mgmt
<nixternal> err, or it is being read as that
<nixternal> when I run ant, it replaces the - with a _
#ubuntu-devel 2008-10-31
<legreffier> Hello here :)
<lifeless> does jockey complain about non-free firmware?
<maxb_> ooi, why have the recent intrepid updates been issued through intrepid-security rather than intrepid-updates? The changelogs don't make them sound like security issues.
<kees> maxb_: the kernel update was a security issue.  the base-files thing is mostly to clean up a pre-release glitch, which was security related.  all very confusing and last minute.  :P
<nixternal> kees: would the base-files package cause issues I am seeing where when running ant all of a sudden changes - to _ ? this issue is driving me up a wall and it just started happening today, and for everyone else at work at upgraded to Intrepid
<NCommander> Hola world
<TheMuso> hey NCommander.
<NCommander> I'm in Boston, I just attended my first Ubuntu release party <g>
 * ajmitch hasn't been to one yet :)
<nixternal> I was supposed to go to the Michigan one on Saturday, but a silly wedding is stopping me
<NCommander> I also got to meet my first (X)ubuntu developer in real life
<nixternal> who was it?
<NCommander> cody-somerville
<TheMuso> NCommander: and how was that experience?
<nixternal> NCommander: oh man, don't ever talk to cody-somerville again, he can be dangerous :P
<NCommander> TheMuso, fascinating
<NCommander> nixternal, I'll make sure to tell him you said that, he's less than five feet away from me ATM
<nixternal> he will see the highlight when he gets back, and then he will beat me up I am sure
 * cody-somerville sucker punches nixternal.
<nixternal> told ya
<nixternal> if it is a release "Party", why are you geeks online?
<nixternal> see, in Chicago, our parties are...well just that, a party :)
<NCommander> nixternal, I thought in Chicago they ended in a fight on how the White Soxes play baseball ;-)
<nixternal> the real people in Chicago don't care about the White Sox
<NCommander> nixternal, cause $Party->over();
<NCommander> nixternal, I was said when the Chicago Sun building was town down. There is like a big gap where it used to be in my heart
<nixternal> well, there is a big golden building now in that spot with Trumps name all over it :)
<NCommander> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww
<nixternal> I work right down the street from it
<NCommander> I would pass if it I still took the 10 bus to go anywhere
<nixternal> ooh the 10...I take the 51 or a cab everywhere now...CTA is garbage
<NCommander> They haven't run the Loop into the ground (yet)
<nixternal> the loop will be there forever
<NCommander> Not for a lack of trying
 * NCommander remembers when the Loop used to be faster then taking a car from O'Hare
<nixternal> oh, you are just talking about the El in general.... ya, that is a long ass ride on the blue line from o'hare to the city
<NCommander> I've always referred to it as the Loop
 * NCommander is not a Chicago native, but it is a place I would love to live
<NCommander> Although I've always wanted to go see Hell when its frozen over
<nixternal> haha
<NCommander> nixternal, ah, good you know what I'm talking about
<nixternal> in 3 more months, hell will freeze over
<vorian> werd
<vorian> that's the truth
<vorian> in more ways than one :P
<NCommander> Yeah, Microsoft will open source Vista
 * calc wants his jaunty fix :)
<MK93013> I have installed package ubuntu-xen-server using apt-get  command. When I restart my computer I dont' get choice to boot from xen server... I have ubuntu 8.04 on my machine.. Has anyone run into this issue ?
<kees> nixternal: not base-files, sorry.  it just fixes some file perms that were only a problem if you installed intrepid from a beta or earlier.
<dholbach> good morning
 * soren gets all excited as he subscribes to jaunty-changes
<dholbach> yeeehaaaaw
 * dholbach hugs soren
 * soren hugs dholbach :)
 * lool waves 'morning
<lool> Hmm weird, I have a 404 with the .deb referenced of rhythmbox referenced in intrepid-proposed
<mvo> lool: probably one of the round-robin servers not in sync yet
<lool> Could be; thanks
<seb128> hey mvo lool
<seb128> mvo: not on holiday?
<mvo> hey seb128
<mvo> seb128: no, should i?
<seb128> mvo: well, pitti sent a mail saying most of germany has a national holiday today so I was wondering ;-)
<seb128> mvo: you likely have tomorrow as we have
<seb128> but that's a saturday this year so
<mvo> I have no touch to the real world, let me check with wikipedia ;)
<kagou> i'v some problem hacking gfxboot. I'm doing localised iso in french for ubuntu-fr. I'v created lang and langlist with just "fr" in but help menu are always english version at menu boot.
<kagou> im ean for F1 help screens
<VSpike> Can anyone who knows how to use GDB have a look at this bug and suggest how I can debug it further? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/samba/+bug/290673
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 290673 in samba "fusesmb mount disappears - libsmbclient segfaults" [Undecided,New]
<VSpike> I want to add a backtrace to the report but I can't seem to get gdb to attach properly
<kagou> cjwatson, may be can you help me
<VSpike> The essence is that when using fusesmb, libsmbclient.so crashes out with a segfault.
<cjwatson> kagou: what version?
<kagou> cjwatson, 8.10
<kagou> included in intrepid 8.10
<kagou> cjwatson, i'v do this :
<kagou> cd extract-cd/isolinux
<kagou> echo "fr" > langlist
<kagou> echo "fr" > lang
<kagou> but F1 Help screens are still in english
<cjwatson> kagou: pretty sure that's meant to work, perhaps you could file a bug
<cjwatson> and I'll see if I can figure it out from there
<kagou> cjwatson, on gfxboot-theme ?
<cjwatson> gfxboot-theme-ubuntu
<kagou> indeed, ok thanks
<joaopinto> can someone confirm bug 291161 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 291161 in bind9 "nslookup: parse of /etc/resolv.conf failed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/291161
<kagou> cjwatson, in fact it seem's that this is the case on the official iso too
<kagou> ok cjwatson #291492
<lool> Err do I understand correctly that all exports in /usr/share/initramfs-tools/init are passed down to init and the whole sysv init scripts?!
<apw> superm1: about?
<soren> lool: I believe that's the intent, yes.
<lool> soren: that's awful :-(
<lool> MODPROBE_OPTIONS for one is disruptive
<lool> It leaks so many generic names: blacklist panic debug ROOT quiet
<cjwatson> perhaps it should unset disruptive ones
<cjwatson> I don't think it should necessarily clear the whole environment
<lool> cjwatson: I think it should only export for init the ones which it cares to export to init
<soren> lool: Oh, sorry.
<lool> it's one thing to do the exports for the other initramfs scripts, but the way it's implemented it's too easy to export to the whole init script
<soren> lool: No, I misunderstood your initial question.
<cjwatson> lool: it wouldn't surprise me if some things depend on the behaviour that foo=bar passed on the kernel command line sets environment variable foo
<soren> lool: Hm... Let me check something.
<cjwatson> lool: so I think we should be pretty careful here
<lool> cjwatson: I fully agree that it's going to be hard to fix this situation
<lool> I suspect this makes it harder to not use an initrd, or to use a different initrd implementation
<soren> Doesn't init sanitize the environment?
<lool> cjwatson: e.g. I just discovered that modprobe --all --quiet was broken, while modprobe --all works; the quiet is likely to have been set by the above MODPROBE_OPTIONS
<lool> (obviously a bug, but I don't want people writing init script to rely on the behavior which is an accidental consequence of MODPROBE_OPTIONS)
<cjwatson> the number of exports is strictly bounded, and I think it'd be easy for initramfs-tools to clean up after itself
<lool> soren: I think login might
<cjwatson> init probably expects some things (e.g. PATH) to be set for it by the kernel
<lool> So when runs e.g. /etc/init.d/acpid start, it's not the same env as during boot and can behave differently
<cjwatson> but it's been a while since I looked
<cjwatson> of course, it's not the same environment anyway. ISTR some people being bitten by DISPLAY being set, and there's always the problem of daemons hanging on to file descriptors.
<lool> I certaintly don't want to add an env -i or something to initramfs; perhaps having something like an env dump and restore, or a subshell, or unsetting some specific env vars would do
<cjwatson> So I don't think we necessarily need to be too set on it being an identical environment
<cjwatson> a certain amount of cleanup does need to be handled on a per-package basis
<lool> cjwatson: Well it's the opposite bug here
<soren> cjwatson: Actually, upstart seems to explicitly set PATH.
<cjwatson> oh, ok
<soren> From upstart/init/process.c:
<soren>         /* Inherit PATH and TERM from our parent's environment, everything
<soren>          * else is often just overspill from initramfs.
<soren>          */
<soren>         NIH_MUST (path = nih_strdup (NULL, getenv ("PATH")));
<soren>         NIH_MUST (term = nih_strdup (NULL, getenv ("TERM")));
<soren>         if (clearenv () < 0)
<soren>                 nih_return_system_error (-1);
<lool> cjwatson: I kind of wonder whether invoke-rc.d shouldn't be cleaning the environment in some ways
<lool> cjwatson: It strikes me that if you restart apache2 with DISPLAY, dbus, XDG and what not env vars, you might be leaking interesting information
<cjwatson> mm, I'd tend to agree there
<soren> lool: No.
<soren> lool: Apache's init script clears the environment.
<lool> Not as grave has the filehandle on the terminal but still
<lool> soren: Pretty bad example then
<lool> soren: $other service :)
<soren> lool: But you're right about the theory.
<soren> lool: :)
<lool> arf, i see apache resets path which puts the discussion on ruby gems in yet another light
<lool> Hmm if we try to not leak too much env when invoke-rc.d-ing services, then we ought to do the same on startup
 * lool pictures months of effort to fix this
<ma10> bryce: why do you keep closing Bug #211610? Do I have to open another bug so that I am the original reporter?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 211610 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24 "[fglrx] fglrx freezes randomly : Soft lockup" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/211610
<cjwatson> ma10: it's often a good idea to file a new bug anyway. It's easier to mark a bug as a duplicate when it turns out to be the same than it is to split comments out of a bug when it turns out to be different.
<cjwatson> ma10: hence why we talk about "original reporter", because it's very common for people to tag along with an existing bug when it actually turns out that they have a different bug with similar symptoms
<ma10> cjwatson: I'm pretty sure it's the exact same issue.. I'll do it anyway. Thanks
<lool> I didn't get the env vars I fear I'd get with upstart
<lool> It might be clearing the env
<lool> clearenv() in init/procesS.c
<lool>         /* Inherit PATH and TERM from our parent's environment, everything
<lool>          * else is often just overspill from initramfs.
<lool>          */
<soren> lool: i pasted that code 20 minutes ago :)
<lool> soren: Doh
<soren> lool: i also just checked.. I don't have a lot of superfluous stuff in my environment in my init scripts..
<lool> soren: I guess it's only with sysvinit
<soren> lool: I have the following variables:
<soren> runlevel, QUIET, UPSTART_JOB, UPSTART_JOB_ID, TERM, PATH, RUNLEVEL, PREVLEVEL, UPSTART_EVENT, PWD, previous, and VERBOSE. That's it.
<lool> I have about the same
<lool> So at least this is a strong motivation that fixing initramfs wouldn't break Ubuntu :)
<soren> lool: or fix sysvinit?
<soren> lool: Why are you using sysvinit anyway?
<lool> soren: or fix both; but I can't help but think we should limit the number of places where we clear the env
<soren> lool: "fixing initramfs" is kind of hard. There are quite a lot of packages that put stuff in initramfs.
<lool> soren: I'm not; I wanted to fix a bug in modprobe in boht Debian and Ubuntu, but I'm using upstart on both; when I understood the bug, it seemed it would affect everybody equally but it doesn't affect upstart
<lool> soren: Well if upstart clears the env, initramfs could do so as well -- jsut an example quick solution, i don't want to advocate this particular implementation of the fix
<lool> bbiab
<cjwatson> I suspect lots of the exports in casper at least are unnecessary and that plain shell variable settings would do fine
<ogra> dont drop COMPCACHE_SIZE !
<ogra> its necessary to be exported
<lool> ogra: down upstart?
<ogra> (it can be unset before changing over to eh real root though)
<ogra> *the
<ogra> lool, its not used after initramfs, but inside initramfs it needs to stay exported
<benjo> Hello everybody, I have a problem
<benjo> I installed ubuntu 8.10 on my macbook
<benjo> but this doesn't work correctly, the rEfit doesn't work
<Pici> benjo: The support channel is #ubuntu, have you asked there yet?
<benjo> ok
<rtg> anyone know where smbd gets its list of shares from?
<sistpoty|work> rtg: /etc/samba/smb.conf
<rtg> sistpoty|work: thats what I thought too, but no joy.
<sistpoty|work> rtg: strange... but I guess slangasek would know for sure ;)
<rtg> If you do it via the gnome file manager, I wonder if its stored in a binary format somewhere.
<amitk> rtg: do what?
<sistpoty|work> that would leave the question, how smbd would access it then
<amitk> rtg: you can check gconf-editor in for gnome specific configs
<sistpoty|work> rtg: maybe gnome file manager directly uses ipcclient?
<rtg> amitk: if you share a folder so that a windoz box can mount it. I'm replicating my dev box, and just want to copy a conf file.
<rtg> amitk: if I don't share this one directory , then the spousal unit checkbook doesn't work and I will suffer sudden and intense grief.
<rtg> amitk: .gnome2/nautilus-share-modified-permissions
<amitk> rtg: didn't know you could share a folder using gnome file manager. So you have your windows domain, etc. configured in smb.conf already?
<rtg> amitk: I just left it as the default WORKGROUP, but you have to add whatever account will be attaching using 'smbpasswd -a'
<amitk> rtg: then I'm at a loss since I don't run samba on the network.
<rtg> amitk: oh, I found it in /.gnome2/nautilus-share-modified-permissions, but I guess it means I have to be logged in before the shares are advertised.
<amitk> aah.. i don't even have that file. I guess it is created when you first create a share
<rtg> thats what I assume
<jdong> asac: is network-manager supposed to forget wired static settings every reboot? :(
<asac> jdong: yes there is a bug for "nm forgets settings if you change auto connection without renaming them"
<asac> jdong: so try to rename your connection or create a new one
<asac> jdong: is that system or user setting?
<jdong> asac: I did rename it to "MIT Static" and appled it system wide, after some combination of rebooting and suspending it was lost
<jdong> only figured out this morning when I had to scan all of 18.96.0.0/16 to find my machine :D
<asac> jdong: try again. if no file is saved in /etc/NetworkManager/system-connections then its not saved
<asac> jdong: could also be a dbus/policykit bustage thing (especially if your system is running for a while this appears to become more unreliable)
<jdong> asac: ok, I'll give it another shot
<jdong> asac: apply systemwide should trigger a policykit dialog, right?
<asac> jdong: yeah ... and look for crsahes of consolekit ... if that thing goes down nothing works anymore
<asac> jdong: yes. it should and it does if everything is in clean state. i think consolekit crashes are the most common reason for this not working
<asac> jdong: please play around
<asac> jdong: and let me know when the file is created and when not
<jdong> asac: okay I'll give this a try when I get back in my room in an hour
<jdong> asac: I'll let you know if the file gets created
<asac> jdong: yes try different things: a) rename auto ... b) create new ...
<jdong> ok, will do
<jdong> asac: one clue is I don't recall ever getting a policykit auth dialog when I hit apply systemwide
<jdong> I'll verify that when I get back
<jdong> if policykit is rejecting something, where is it logged?
<asac> jdong: i think it should pop up ... not sure how much any "do auto authentication" might prevent that from happening
<asac> but i think policykit is at least supposed to pop up
<asac> jdong: well if nothing happens look at syslog ... and see if consolekit has crashed
<jdong> will do
<MacSlow> pitti, dbus still hates me
<MacSlow> pitti, got a minute (or perhaps 5)=
<MacSlow> ?
<james_w> jdong: /var/log/auth.log
<Keybuk> kees: ah, you've already done a fix for the dictionaries-common problem?
<pitti> Good afternoon
<pitti> MacSlow: how does it hate you today?
<pitti> hm, still no -proposed updates for me
<lool> in base-files 4.0.4ubuntu2.2 AIUI
<jdong> asac: Update: Editing or renaming the Auto eth0 connection has no effect, even when system-wide is checked. No PolicyKit auth dialog, no /etc/network-manager files, completely lost when network-manager restarts
<jdong> asac: creating a new profile does work and survive reboots AFAICT
<asac> jdong: no policykit pop up in any case?
<jdong> asac: the latter case (creating a new profile system-wide) does pop up PolicyKit correctly
<jdong> asac: but it seems like renaming or modifying Auto eth0 doesn't work period
<kees> Keybuk: yeah, it was a bit of a sledgehammer solution, but it seems to behave okay
<kees> Keybuk: http://people.ubuntu.com/~kees/base-files_4.0.4ubuntu2.2.debdiff
<Keybuk> :p
<Keybuk> I assume it was dictionaries-common you noticed too?
<Keybuk> lool: ROFL @
<Keybuk> This isn't a problem for upstart systems such as Ubuntu systems as
<Keybuk> upstart clearenv()s in init/process.c (with the comment that initramfs
<Keybuk> is leaking env!), but it is a problem for sysvinit systems such as
<Keybuk> Debian.
<superm1> hi apw yeah
<sabdfl> BADSIG on update today?
<lool> Keybuk: Hmm?
<lool> Keybuk: Eh I actually didn't reproduce an acpid problem by using upstart instead of sysvinit
<MacSlow> pitti, remember the email I send you some days ago.
<MacSlow> pitti, by now I tried every combination of yes, no and auth_admin ... reboot and shutdown can no long be triggered
<MacSlow> pitti, I tried it via my own calls to dbus and also via d-feet
<MacSlow> everytime I get "no privilege"-errors
<ogra> sabdfl, seems to work here
<ogra> (though i'm using a.u.c directly, not the german mirror)
<sabdfl> ogra: that's the one i'm using too
<ogra> its very slow but i just got all updates including new kernel
<apw> superm1: you said i should check back in with you at the end of the week about a studio 15 i have which has some issues with intrepid
<Keybuk> lool: ?
<superm1> apw, sure what's happening
<apw> i have two issues right now.  first the sound is all crackles under alsa (which may be a wider issue than just dells) and resume has become 95% hangs
<apw> on the resume (from suspend or hibernate) we get as far as flipping to X and typically it hangs the machine hard with just the cursor on the black screen, sometimes it gets a little further
<apw> and puts up the background of the password box, but no actual contents.  on the hardy kernel i still have the sound is ok, and the resume is more like 95% successful, but it does hang the same way intermittantly
<apw> there is a bug for both out there.  bug#289212 and bug#273578
<pitti> MacSlow: sounds like a missing XDG_SESSION_COOKIE then
<MacSlow> pitti, like I mentioned in my email-reply XDG_SESSION_COOKIE is set for sure
<superm1> apw, are you on the intel or amd graphics variant?
<pitti> MacSlow: have a confcall now, will look at your mail later
<apw> intel usin the i915 driver i believe
<MacSlow> pitti, it used to work just during the week of the summit/hackfest
<MacSlow> pitti, main changes were only package-updates on my intrepid-based laptop
<MacSlow> pitti, ok I'll look out for your emails
<apw> 00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 07)
<superm1> apw, well normally you should be testing on command line with pm-suspend.  sleep.sh is deprecated
<apw> yep pm-suspend hangs just the same as using the fast-user-switcher
<superm1> apw, you are the first report that i've heard with issues related to this though
<superm1> apw, when it's hung, can you get ssh'ed in?
<apw> i was put onto sleep.sh just because it is how one is meant to debug suspend, and it showed that the machine can come back from resume.  in that case it gets stuck trying to use vbetool post to restore the graphics
<apw> nope, enabled sshd and she is not back on the network.  _but_ there is no gueantee that network manager has restored the network if x is stopped
<superm1> right
<superm1> apw, you might check with rtg on the sound.  it shares the same chipset as another laptop rtg was struggling with similar issues
<apw> yeah, i did talk to him earlier in the week, but with the release it seemed sensible to wait a while
<apw> i think its pretty widespread and as he has a broken example too i suspect it'll get fixed without my input
<superm1> apw, but i'd also keep all your debugging to your own audio bug rather than mooching onto the t61p's audio bug.  snd-hda-intel has different code paths for different codecs
<apw> ahh ok ...
<superm1> but that being said, i've got a studio family laptop with the same codec as yours  that is functional sound wise, so i'd double check on a live disk to rule out configuration issues
<apw> yeah thats a fair suggestion, will go download one now.  anything else i can poke here to get more information on the suspend jobbie?  i can't decide if the sleep.sh vbetool post hang is a herring rouge, or something worth chasing; mostly cause its easier to poke than the hard hang on restore.  as i am suspicious that the xserver is doing the same post when it wedge, just internal
<superm1> apw, well I think it's a good idea to take NM out of the picture, switch to networking without it, and then if you can get into SSH, there's your best debug route.
<Chipzz> I have a question: someone is asking the following: "I have an old edgy install that I want to upgrade to intrepid". What is he supposed to do? Upgrades are only supported between consequetive (LTS) releases...
<Chipzz> and I think feisty is no longer supported?
<apw> superm1: oh one thing... i am using an amd64 install
<Chipzz> (at least edgy is no longer supported)
<superm1> apw, i've we've never done testing here with amd64 at least...
<Chipzz> mvo (not sure if you're the right person to ask...): ^^^ ? got any idea?
<lool> Chipzz: Perhaps trying to install via http://old-releases.ubuntu.com/releases/ not sure if that's easy though
<apw> so another thing to eliminate then
<superm1> apw, that and windows 64 bit doesn't even ship on it, so if there are any BIOS bugs that are 64 bit specific, they will certainly show up.
<wasabi> Chipzz: Upgrade to whatever came after edgy.
<wasabi> Chipzz: And then onward.
<directhex> forwards, not backwards!
<Chipzz> wasabi: which is feisty, and I think no longer supported (ie no langer installable?)
<wasabi> Chipzz: Though I bet an upgrade between thw two would work anyways.
<wasabi> Is feisty still in the archives?
<Chipzz> that's what I am wondering too
<Chipzz> edgy isn't (according to him)
<wasabi> Might be in the old archives. heh.
<apw> superm1: its more odd that it got so much worse in the intrepid kernel, and just booting back to the hardy kernel improves things majorly (other than wireless not being supported of course)
<superm1> apw, ah you went with intel wireless, yeah on hardy only the broadcom wireless is supported.
<apw> heh yeah, and that because intel wireless is more commonly supported
<apw> life is hard sometimes
<superm1> apw, going forward any new Broadcom based Dell adapters will have support via wl
<apw> and the intel is supported and good now in 2.6.27 intrepid kernels so ... i just need to sort my other bugs and i'll be laughing :-/
<jdong> superm1: wl has really surprised me in how well it actually works
<jdong> I'm really close to cannibalizing a computer to transplant a broadcom card into my Macbook :)
<superm1> jdong, yeah :/  even performance wise it holds a much more reliable connection.  i can watch HD content via wifi with it on a mini9
<jdong> superm1: oh cool the mini9 uses broadcom?
<jdong> superm1: please stop tempting me to spend money.
<jdong> that's gotta be against the CoC somehow
<superm1> jdong, yeah it's a 4312 based adapter.  oh the mini 9 isn't too pricey, just get a few family members to splurge on it for you for xmas or something :)
<jdong> :)
<mvo> Chipzz: he can still upgrade via old-releases, but its going to be a bit of a pain because he has to do every single one until hardy
<mvo> Chipzz: might be easier to do a "preserve-home" install of hardy, intrepid and install the mising packages afterwards
 * mvo is out of a bit
<dfgas1> can anyone one help with me with a suspend to disk problem, kernel panic afterwards
<VSpike> can anyone suggest how I can get a gdb backtrace for a crash in libsmbclient when using fusesmb?
<soren> asac: My firefox says (in about:plugins) that libnullplugin isn't enabled... How do I change that?
 * soren has to run
<asac> soren: it says its not enabled or it isnt there at all?
<VSpike> If I have the info "fusesmb[16090]: segfault at 4 ip b7c03590 sp b5514dc0 error 4 in libsmbclient.so.0[b7b88000+386000]", and I have the symbol files loaded for fusesmb and libsmbclient, how can I view the line of code causing the problem?
<sistpoty|work> VSpike: in gdb? bt would give you a backtrace
<VSpike> sistpoty|work: I can't seem to get it to do so :/
<VSpike> sistpoty|work: if I use it to run gdb, it just tells me that the main process exited normally straight after it starts
<VSpike> s/gdb/fusesmb/
<sistpoty|work> ah, so you didn't get the segfault when run inside gdb, right?
<VSpike> sistpoty|work: I tried setting the fork follow children, and the setting to debug threads, but neither helped
<VSpike> sistpoty|work: no
<VSpike> sistpoty|work: the segfault doesn't happen right away - you have to load up the connection, use a few programs
<VSpike> sistpoty|work: according to gdb, fusesmb exits right away, but it must be spawning some kind of child surely?
<sistpoty|work> VSpike: not too sure about fusesmb
<sistpoty|work> VSpike: you could use disas 0xb7c03590 to look at the function where it crashed
<sistpoty|work> (there must be an easier means to do it though, but I'm by far no gdb expert)
<VSpike> The samba in 8.10 is one behind the current stable release.  None of the fixes in the change log look very relevant though.
<VSpike> sistpoty|work: I tried looking at the disassembly in the area but it makes little sense.  I'd like to relate it to the symbols in the dbgsym package to see which line of code it relates to, really
<VSpike> sistpoty|work: I worked out the offset into the library from the message, and used objdump
<sistpoty|work> VSpike: sorry, can't help you really then
<Kano> hi, is it possible to specify a script that runs at bootup using the preseed way=
<superm1> Kano, you can set up early and late commands to run before or after the installer, but not on general systems
 * directhex has used it before!
 * directhex delights in the joy of preseeds
<directhex> especially when the syntax changes with every d-i build
<Kano> superm1: well i would like to use it in live mode
<Kano> basically after xconfig
<superm1> Kano, well it will work in live mode as an early command then.  casper (which is on the live disk) processes early commands
<Kano> but is that not too early?
<ogra> its in initrmfs
<ogra> +a
<Kano> is it possible to use a late command for xserver-xorg?
<NCommander> Out of curiosity, roughly long after the toolchain is uploaded to Jaunty will the archive open?
<ogra> one/two weeks
<ogra> NCommander, but usually everyone is cleaning u leftovers or stuff that piled up during release testing the first few days after release anyway
<NCommander> ogra, I just was looking for the timeframe I have to get initial work done on the ports kernel :-)
<directhex> at what point to i request demoting a package?
<ogra> NCommander, well, we usually also copy over the old packages for the first run
<ogra> so it will use the old kernels in the beginning anyway
<NCommander> ogra, right, this I knew
<ogra> so no hurry
<ogra> and make sure to coordinate with the kernel team if you do any kernel work ;)
 * directhex would like to demote mono-dbg, unless someone knows a good reason not to
<pwnguin> directhex: im not sure mono and ubuntu-devel have a big overlap
<directhex> pwnguin, sure they do. me!
<directhex> pwnguin, and slomo if he's not too busy. which he usually is
<pwnguin> directhex: ok then, the next time i find someone upset about mono or monodevelop, i'll drop your name ;)
<ogra> pwnguin, enough overlap that we ship f-spot and tomboy by default :)
<directhex> pwnguin, since we're planning on making mono 100% syncable, i'd be the right contact
<directhex> pwnguin, or pkg-mono-devel@lists.debian.org anyway
<directhex> pwnguin, oh, and if they're moaning about patents, send them to /dev/urandom for me plz
<superm1> directhex, how is moonlight looking?  will there be a package showing up during jaunty for it, or still a bit premature?
<directhex> superm1, you want a package? needs rebuilding against intrepid
<superm1> directhex, well i dont have any silverlight websites i visit currently that would need it, just curiosity really :)
<directhex> a884d84c51fbd8bff90b27e2c96c9e49  pkg-mono/moon/trunk/debian/rules
<directhex> marillat made a package but it's garbage tbh
<superm1> well that and i dont know how many silverlight websites need silverlight 2 vs 1 at this point, so i'm not sure how useful it will even be until moonlight w/ stable support for silverlight 2 is around
<directhex> superm1, well observed! we're holding back on svn-buildpackage until we can build 2.0 support
<directhex> superm1, SL2 support in any state requires mono 2.0, which will happen in about a week tops
<superm1> directhex, ah didn't realize it needed mono 2 even.
<directhex> superm1, i really don't want to maintain intrepid backports alongside hardy though :/
<superm1> directhex, yeah wouldn't blame you there.
<directhex> superm1, the hardy backports are classy though ;)
<directhex> thoooooooooooousands of users ;)
<directhex> superm1, now, smack people around & make them ship me my damn latitude e4300!
<NCommander> jdong, ping
<tedg> How does NIS work, does it just write all the users to an /etc/passwd file or is there something more complex?
<directhex> tedg, on the SERVER, yes, it's just that
<tedg> directhex: On the clients?
<directhex> tedg, clients, no, it connects via the NIS protocol to get entries
<directhex> tedg, think like a solaris developer. all the solarisy ways of doing things
<tedg> Then does libc take care of whether you're talking to NIS or /etc/passwd with the functions to access the passwd entries?
<directhex> tedg, that's the job of PAM and/or NSS
<directhex> tedg, "getent passwd" gets all passwd values publically readable from services in /etc/nsswitch.conf
<directhex> tedg, pam is for directly speaking to auth services, nss for things that pretend to be /etc/foo
<tedg> Oh, wow.  Crazy.  I think I get it now.  Way more complex than I was hoping for :)
<directhex> tedg, if it's in nsswitch, treat it like normal, via things in libc like getent, whether it's in ldap or nis or files or all three
<directhex> pam is more complex
<directhex> look for libnss-foo packages to see potential options
<ogra> shudder, are you guys really discussing NIS ?
<directhex> ogra, it's still popular in my like o' work!
<directhex> line
 * ogra thought that was dead since 10 years
<directhex> nope. buy a cluster today, it'll ship with NIS
<ogra> how about all the password sniffing ... ?
<ogra> ah, well, a cluster mght have its own backbone it uses internally anyway
<directhex> ogra, given the problem of getting security updates onto a cluster, it's the leats of your worries
<ogra> yeah
<directhex> ogasawara, personally i have my own ldaps:// auth server
<directhex> (s)
<ogra> lean will be happy to hear that :)
<ogra> *leann even
<directhex> who?
<ogasawara> ogra: hehe, thanks for sharing :)
<ogra> heh
<directhex> deployed on debian. dapper was a catastrophic failure
<NCommander> directhex, do you have a hardy box?
<pwnguin> so i guess this channel topic needs to change
<pwnguin> there is no ubuntu+1
<Treenaks> yet
<ogra> pwnguin, feel free
<djhash> hey.. quick question (not support question).. while looking at my dmesg (8.10).. i noticed something.. [   14.090990] em28xx #0: The support for this board weren't valid yet. Please send a report of having this working not to V4L mailing list (and/or to other addresses).. i'd like to be helpful and i hope this is something someone wants to see.. but i'm not sure who to send to and what is it that I need to send..
<ogra> probably to what it say .,...
<ogra> "V4L mailing list"
<djhash> I have a fairly good idea on which of my hw that is talking about.. Plextor PX-TV1000U
<ogra> doesnt sound like #ubuntu-devel :)
<djhash> it said NOT to V4L mailing list.. or is that typo?!!
* pwnguin changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 8.10 released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs || Evil bug 286175
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~/Devel$ modinfo em28xx|grep description
<ogra> description:    Empia em28xx based USB video device driver
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~/Devel$ modinfo em28xx|grep author
<ogra> author:         Ludovico Cavedon <cavedon@sssup.it>, Markus Rechberger <mrechberger@gmail.com>, Mauro Carvalho Chehab <mchehab@infradead.org>, Sascha Sommer <saschasommer@freenet.de>
<ogra> pwnguin, while your at it, i think the evil bug thing can go as well
<pwnguin> wonder what bug #286175 is
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286175 in fontconfig "evince crashed with SIGSEGV in FcConfigSubstituteWithPat()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286175
<pwnguin> priority high and confirmed =/
<djhash> ogra: so one of those emails?
<ogra> djhash, well, find out where that driver is developed or just file a bug in launchpad and let the devs sort it
<djhash> ogra: ok.. thanks..
<jcole> hi guys (and gals), i've remastered an iso (installed packages, modified /etc/skel, modified the default gconf db, system wide files, etc.)
<jcole> it seems all is well for the live session user except the gconf settings
<jcole> adding a new user and switching to the new user seems to work but the live session user does not have the gconf settings... does the live session user get it's gconf from a special place?
 * jt66 is away: I'm busy
<NCommander> jcole, check the casper package, it generates the ubuntu user and the default config ont he liveCD
<jcole> NCommander: ok
<ogra> did you run update-gconf-defaults after changing the system keys ?
<ogra> (assumng you properly added a gconf file to /usr/share/gconf/defaults/ )
<ogra> jcole, ^^^
<jcole> ogra: ah, that may be my problem
<ogra> make sure your file has a higher number so it will override the existing ones
<jcole> ogra: you are too cool, that was my problem
<ogra> :)
<jcole> ogra: thank you :)
<ogra> welcome :)
<Keybuk> pitti: around?
<Keybuk> cjwatson: ?
<Keybuk> maybe this is a silly bug
<Keybuk> but the apt cache isn't valid on new intrepid installs
<Keybuk> which means jockey doesn't work :p
<pwnguin> apt-cache
<pwnguin> arg
<superm1> Keybuk, I think you need to have a network cable plugged in while you do install to get a valid apt cache
<Chipzz> superm1: I think that's an incorrect assertion, since I saw some bug floating by here a few days ago about the need to have an uncompressed Packages file on the live CD
<pwnguin> so a simple apt-get update is a workaround, no?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: it depends, unfortunately, on whether you had network access during the install
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I think the best way to fix this is to copy the Packages files across from the livefs; it's pretty fiddly though as the mirror will in the general case be different from the livefs (which uses archive.ubuntu.com) and so you end up having to predict /var/lib/apt/lists filenames
<cjwatson> but, anyway, yes it is a bug
<cjwatson> ogra: actually I'm hoping to open jaunty for general development no later than about Monday
<wgrant> cjwatson: Isn't that about the earliest ever?
<cjwatson> wgrant: I haven't kept notes :) We usually do manage it within about a week, but yes I think this should be pretty quick
<cjwatson> wgrant: it helps that the toolchain changes this time aren't quite so huge
<wgrant> I guess that would help, yes.
<cjwatson> TBH, we're very nearly done now
<wgrant> I saw gcc-4.3 in NEW last night, and binutils came through this morning... is that it?
<cjwatson> glibc still to come, I'm just eyeballing the interdiff
<wgrant> Aha.
<cjwatson> but I understand that's it
<sistpoty> cjwatson: is that an announcement? *g*
<cjwatson> sistpoty: not quite yet :-)
<sistpoty> ok :)
<cjwatson> sistpoty: one of the steps on the new-release-cycle process is "Inform #ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-devel-announce that the new release is now open for uploads, pointing to merge-o-matic output"
<cjwatson> so it will not be forgotten :-)
<sistpoty> heh
<cjwatson> folks should also be glad to hear that I've already given authoritative go-ahead to LP to open jaunty translations
<wgrant> cjwatson: Excellent!
<wgrant> And hopefully people will notice earlier this time if something goes wrong.
<sistpoty> cjwatson: alright if I send http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/65447/ to ubuntu-motu?
<cjwatson> sistpoty: sure
<sistpoty> thanks cjwatson :)
<wgrant> cjwatson: It looks like dists/jaunty isn't being rsynced to a.u.c... is that intentional?
<cjwatson> wgrant: no - it could just be load problems though, I don't think there's any release selectivity there
<cjwatson> elmo: confirm?
#ubuntu-devel 2008-11-01
<calc> cjwatson: can we get the alpha milestone targets?
<wgrant> Oh, I thought I saw somewhere that it was selective.
<calc> and we probably don't need the 8.10 targets anymore (unless i am mistaken?)
<cjwatson> calc: ok, will do shortly
<calc> other than intrepid-updates i mean
<cjwatson> calc: yeah, in order to close those out I need to do the tedious work of going through them and reassigning stuff though
<calc> cjwatson: thanks :)
<cjwatson> wgrant: by architecture, but I *think* not by release
<calc> cjwatson: oh i see, don't worry about those for now then, heh
<calc> oh does anyone know why dapper and gutsy still aren't on the wiki.u.c page?
<calc> they were removed when the updated page was put up and haven't been added back since
<cjwatson> what wiki.u.c page?
<calc> wiki.ubuntu.com main page
<calc> it shows released as only hardy and intrepid
<cjwatson> calc: I think it's fine for it just to list the major current ones
<calc> up until ~ last week it showed all supported dists
<calc> ok
<cjwatson> i.e. current LTS and current non-LTS
<cjwatson> I edited it to move intrepid to stable and add jaunty; before I did so, it only listed hardy as stable
<calc> ok
<calc> yea the page was very significantly changed around last week
<emgent> hello
<cjwatson> calc: alpha milestones created
<calc> cjwatson: thanks! :)
<calc> hmm we are going to have the debian import freeze during vacation? :)
<cjwatson> that's why the question mark is against it
<calc> oh ok
<cjwatson> I think it's a sucky date but OTOH the gap between feature freeze and DIF is already tighter than usual, and UDS is late
<calc> and OOo isn't even scheduled to release 3.1 until the week of our feature freeze so we will probably have 3.0.1
<cjwatson> so I was short of available choices - I mentioned it in the mail I sent out to Steve and the team leads after creating that schedule page
<calc> 6 weeks past our FF would put it at RC week
<cjwatson> coo, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/<milestone-name> has any bugs assigned to you highlighted now
<calc> heh the two remaining 3.0.1 RC bugs were filed by me >:)
<wgrant> cjwatson: I see that jaunty is on a.u.c now.
<cjwatson> wgrant: depends which backend you happen to hit, I think
<cjwatson> wgrant: it's not on all of them, so you'll get inconsistent results
<wgrant> cjwatson: I guess.
<cjwatson> wgrant: hmm, or there's something screwy with my cache; manual wget from all four backends shows jaunty on all of them
<cjwatson> as does looking at it from chiark
<cjwatson> very confused. I guess it'll sort itself out.
<calc> wow supposedly early voting lines in Atlanta were as long as 10hrs long today
<wgrant> At least it's mostly there and should fix itself.
 * wgrant updates lots of scripts.
<jdong> hmm, fedora has this conveniently written dkms.conf... I wonder if it'll work for me.
<wgrant> How is one meant to watch changes in a stable release now? The only way I can see is to diff Packages files, as all changes are now done by native copies...
<elmo> cjwatson: confirmed
<elmo> and there is load issues on archive.u.c; I'm working on increasing the capacity to compensate
<layy> Friends, after the troubles regarding bug #263555 that would permanently corrupt some Intel NIC hardware in some alpha releases, may you confirm if it is it really safe now to install 8.10? (I know that it shouldn't be a concern now, but just for the case before I cross the point of non-return)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 263555 in linux-lpia "[intrepid] 2.6.27 e1000e driver places Intel ICH8 and ICH9 gigE chipsets at risk" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/263555
<ScottK> layy: Note the status of the bug.
<layy> ScottK, I'm somewhat new to the field... so the "Fix Released" means that it won't hurt me, but from what I can make out, my NIC won't work... Am I correct?
 * ScottK look at the bug.
<wgrant> It will work.
<ScottK> layy: ^^^
<layy> wgrant, ScottK, thanks a lot
<calc> anyone know if KDE uses enchant for dictionaries?
<ScottK> calc: Let me see if I have it installed.  That would be a hint.
<calc> appears to be linked to kdelibs5
<ScottK> calc: Is this the enchant dictionary that's part of abiword?
<ScottK> That's the one Google found for me.
<ScottK> calc: It looks like it does/will, but I don't find a clear reference.
<calc> ScottK: yes
<superm1> slangasek, I believe you alluded to the reasoning before, but how come I can't "apt-get install mythbuntu-desktop^" to get the task for it installed?
<NCommander> evening world
<superm1> I was hoping to switch over to livecd-rootfs early before the rest of the world around everything broke making it difficult, and not being able to have an apt-get'able task seems to make that significantly more difficult
<NetEcho> who maintains the installer, specifically the timezone portion of it?
<NetEcho> in other words who do I report an error in timezones that has been there since the first versions of ubuntu to?
<NetEcho> well if anyone is paying attention, the installer lists Toronto/New York as GMT -4 which is Atlantic Standard Time but they are GMT -5 Eastern Standard Time
<cody-somerville> NetEcho, Ever heard of DST? :P
<NetEcho> still -5
<NCommander> NetEcho, -4 if DST is in effect from GMT
<NetEcho> AST is for Atlantic provinces only
<Hobbsee> NetEcho: you report a bug.
<NetEcho> NCommander all year round it says -4 and according to government firms its never -4
<NetEcho> we're always -5
<cody-somerville> You're wrong
<cody-somerville> Absolutely, 100% wrong
<Hobbsee> it's probably tzdata, too
<NetEcho> tell that to our government too
<NetEcho> who teaches that from grade 4 on
<cody-somerville> We're not in AST
<cody-somerville> We're in ADT
<Hobbsee> NetEcho: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+filebug
<cody-somerville> Atlantic Canada is currently -0300
<NetEcho> ADT is -3
<Hobbsee> NetEcho: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+filebug
<NCommander> And this is when my brain goes bye bye, and checks out for the night
<Hobbsee> correct link, even.
<NCommander> wow
<NetEcho> New York might follow EDT
<NCommander> NetEcho, we use EDT/EST normally
<NCommander> So from GMT, we're -4, we'll be -5 once EST comes up
<NCommander> But when you call people in UK, it might be -4 to -6 due to DST and the status of British summer time
<NetEcho> I've never seen it show -5 tho ever
<NCommander> NetEcho, are you in atlantic, or eastern time?
<NetEcho> eastern
<NCommander> Ok, what time does your computer say it is now, and what time does it think UTC is
<NCommander> (use date, and date -u respectively on the command line)
<NetEcho> well my windows machines and debian machine all say 01:56 GMT -5
<NCommander> NetEcho, what does date -u say?
<NCommander> It should say: (without -u) Sat Nov  1 01:57:14 EDT 2008
<NCommander> and with:
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> Sat Nov  1 05:57:15 UTC 2008
<NetEcho> 1 sec trying to copy it over
<NetEcho> well except for a slight difference in time which is probably due to mine being out of sync thats what I get
<NetEcho> Sat Nov 01 01:59:50 EDT 2008
<NetEcho> Sat Nov 01 06:00:11 UTC 2008
<NetEcho> does that just reset it to GMT 0 or something?
<NetEcho> hrm wait that is -4
<NetEcho> so maybe certain apps are going by just the EST and ignoring EDT?
<NetEcho> although EDT ends tonight I think for us
<NetEcho> since the 4th is a tuesday
<Mez> hmm... server upgrade saying there's not a new version
<wgrant> Mez: You'll need to alter some config file, or it'll only look for a new LTS.
<Mez> wgrant, I just poked a "-d"
<Mez> on the end
<wgrant> /etc/update-manager/release-upgrades
<Mez> that's probably a good idea actually (the whole LTS thing)
<Mez> :'( damnit, cant upgrade my eee :(
<wgrant> Why not?
<Mez> disk space ;)
<wgrant> Ah.
<Mez> (not enough of it)
<Mez> ah well, hardy's UNR is quite nice
<Mez> poo, I shoulda disabled apt-listchanges too :)
<bremby1> hi. I'd like to know, how are the Ubuntu's shared libraries from Glibc configured? Are they somehow optimised?
<woden1> was cheese dropped from 8.10?
<wgrant> woden1: No, it's just not installed by default.
<woden1> wgrant:  Ok.  But it was default install on 8.04 correct?
<wgrant> woden1: I don't believe so...
<wgrant> Hmm, it was in main, so it's possible. Let's see.
<woden1> wgrant: when I go to add/remove applications, and type in cheese, it doesn't find anything
<wgrant> woden1: Ensure that you have universe enabled.
<woden1> deb http://de.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ intrepid universe
<woden1> that's it right?
<wgrant> Yes.
<woden1> Applications --> Add/Remove Applications
<woden1> Show Canonical-maintained applications
<woden1> Search: cheese
<wgrant> It's not Canonical-maintained.
<woden1> "There is no matching application available."
<wgrant> You want "All Open Source applications"
<woden1> ok
<woden1> thanks
<woden1> if you dont mind, i have another easy question...
<woden1> what is the official way to install java and flash?  when I go to a site that uses either one, i dont get the dialog that pops up and asks me to install the software.
<wgrant> This isn't a support channel; you'd be better in #ubuntu
<woden1> alright
<elvis> why was g++ not included in 8.04+?
 * StevenK blinks
<StevenK> [22:01] < elvis> why was g++ not included in 8.04+?
<StevenK> ... It was?
<wgrant> StevenK: Presumably he means the CD.
<bremby1> guys, do you know anything about the precompiled shared libraries in Ubuntu?
<wgrant> !ask | bremby1
<ubottu> bremby1: Please don't ask to ask a question, ask the question (all on ONE line, so others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely answer. :-)
<bremby1> sorry. are they compiled with some specific options? I mean ./configure --options
<wgrant> It depends on the package... see debian/rules in the source package for the binary that you want.
<bremby1> if I'd like to use the glibc libraries from my Ubuntu system, where do I get the configuration?
<wgrant> What?
<wgrant> Why do you need it?
<bremby1> I'd like to build my own system, but I can't get glibc-2.8 compiled, and since I found out glibc doesn't take optimizations, and i386 or i486 would be sufficient, I may be able just to copy them
<bremby1> I'll be away, mom's callinf for lunch :-)
<bremby1> wgrant: so, can you guide me or something?
<tseliot> superm1: I have a workaround for bug 286424, can you have a look at the debdiff, please?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286424 in nvidia-settings "nvidia-settings crashes when user clicks Save To X Configuration File" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286424
<tseliot> or DktrKranz ^^
<superm1> tseliot, i might recommend that you contact the nvidia-settings packaging team for debian and get them to stop including patches directly to the source, i definitely agree there
<superm1> otherwise looks fairly sane
<superm1> are you intending an SRU for this?
<tseliot> superm1: yes, it would be a good idea to do both things
<tseliot> (SRU and contacting upstream)
<superm1> tseliot, okay well jaunty archives should (theoretically) be opening up on Monday, so the debdiff will probably be uploaded to Jaunty monday, and then add an intrepid task for SRU to do it to
<tseliot> superm1: ah, shall I wait until the debdiff it's in Jaunty?
<superm1> tseliot, well given how soon the archive is supposed to open, i figure might as well
<superm1> the SRU won't get much pull over a weekend anyhow
<tseliot> superm1: I was asking because I would like to request an SRU now (no matter when it will be reviewed) so as to start working on the nvidia packages
<superm1> tseliot, well you can turn that bug into an SRU request right now at least and then have the two debdiffs prepared for both jaunty and intrepid no trouble
<tseliot> superm1: ok, done. Thanks for reviewing the debdiff
<heruan> hi guys, I used to have a VM with the devel-version of Ubuntu, so I'm trying to install Jaunty Jackalope on a new VM via a netinstall
<heruan> but when I have to choose the packages' mirror, it gives me an error
<heruan> (I choose "archive.ubuntu.com")
<heruan> is already possible to install it? or the repository is not complete yet?
<Keybuk> Rejected:
<Keybuk> Cannot build any of the architectures requested: any
<Keybuk> ...
<StevenK> Haha
<Keybuk> WAIT! THIS DISTRORELEASE IS NOT YET READY!
<pwnguin> oh teh funnay: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libgnomecanvas/+bug/272316/comments/21
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 272316 in libgnomecanvas "[regression, intrepid] redraw problems, patches from fedora" [Low,Confirmed]
<bluefoxicy> could someone please verify #288173 is complete?
<bluefoxicy> it's pending information from me, but I think i got everything
<Cheery> where to find asm/io.h?
<Cheery> (trying to get gravitywars to work)
<Keybuk> linux-headers
<Keybuk> though it's possible it's a deprecated header that doesn't exist anymore
<Keybuk> you'd need to know what kernel gravitywars was intended to work for
<Cheery> it seems like it's very very old though
<Cheery> Keybuk: and I have linux headers already, and it still freaks
<Cheery> It'd be perhaps easier for me to rewrite the game and just check out the formats :(
<Cheery> ...
<Keybuk> Cheery: then I suspect it was written for an older kernel
<Cheery> hmm.. :) perhaps that's a solution here.
<Keybuk> stuff that includes from linux/ or asm/ really needs to be well maintained and kept up to date by the author
<Keybuk> perhaps ask the author if they have a version for Linux 2.6.27 ?
<Keybuk> or whether they could avoid unstable APIs
<Keybuk> depending what it's doing, you may find that replacing that include with sys/io.h will fix it
<Cheery> good choice as well.. but perhaps then the first thing that came into mind may be good as well
<kees> Cheery: what things does it want from io.h?  (i.e. if you remove it, what does it things does it fail to find?)
<Cheery> doesnt seem to fail anything
<Cheery> except I found now a bit different place where it fails
<Cheery> line 725: Explode:
<Cheery> hmh
<Cheery> I just downloaded this code, if you are interested, I could give the link to sources
<kees> nah, I've got my own stuff to hack on :)
<Keybuk> any reason you're trying to compile it yourself?
<woden1> How do I make it so that internal NTFS drives are automatically mounted?
<Keybuk> sudo apt-get install gravitywars
<Cheery> Keybuk: tried it already
<Keybuk> we've already gone to the trouble of getting that to build for you ;)
<Cheery> Keybuk: it's so fast-running that I can't play it
<Keybuk> Cheery: what did you change in the source to prevent that?
<Cheery> not yet anything, trying to first get it run
<Keybuk> if you want to work on the Ubuntu source:
<Keybuk> apt-get source gravitywars
<Keybuk> and sudo apt-get build-dep gravitywars
<Keybuk> (you'll also want sudo apt-get install build-essential)
<Cheery> oh, I didn't knew about that
<Cheery> Keybuk: I guess this one is highly modified, since it requires sdl
<Cheery> the old seemed to use libsvga
<Cheery> but then, they say they work without X
<Cheery> Keybuk: that source is equivalent to one I have here
<abogani> superm1: Could you review my last debdiff for bug #286961, please?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286961 in fglrx-installer "fglrx not working on rt kernel" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286961
<superm1> abogani, oh i believe i forgot to send my response.  this is best done a patch applied at dkms time not package build time
<superm1> eg you have to add a line to dkms.conf and make sure it gets installed "in" fglrx-kernel-source
<woden1> How do I make it so that internal NTFS drives are automatically mounted?
<abogani> superm1: Where i can find the DKMS's manual?
<superm1> abogani, man dkms :)
<sigp239> How do I make it so that Ubuntu 8.10 automatically mounts my internal NTFS drive?
<abogani> sigp239: I suspect that you are asking in the wrong channel. In any case you are lokking for option auto in /etc/fstab file.
<abogani> s/lokking/looking
<sigp239> abongani:  I can't find any instructions online that show how to do this
<abogani> Line 322 in the dkms man pages contain an error.
<tseliot> sigp239: try asking in #ubuntu
<jdong> what is the error?
 * jdong just used that manpage yesterday to make an alsa package
<abogani> Dkms's manpage contains some reference to /var/dkms that IMHO should be /var/lib/dkms (line 23, 230, 360, 413), isn't it?
<jdong> ah yes, you're correct
<jdong> would you like to file a bug against that, if there isn't one already?
<woden1> I'm having a problem here that nobody seems to solve I am hoping you can.  How do I make it so that Ubuntu 8.10 automatically mounts my internal NTFS drive?
<Chipzz> woden1: not a support channel
<jdong> and being banned from a support channel isn't a valid excuse either
<woden1> Well I was wondering if Ubuntu could "develop" a way to make it so that internal NTFS drives are automatically mounted at boot?
<Chipzz> woden1: it already has that possibility
<Chipzz> but haven't you read what I and jdong just said?
<woden1> Chipzz:  Yes, but I mean as a default behaviour.  Currently this is not the default behaviour.
<woden1> Yes, fine I am leaving now.  Thanks for listening.
<Cheery> Is there a sane way to close down pulseaudio?
<crimsun> pulseaudio -k
<Cheery> W: ltdl-bind-now.c: Failed to find original dlopen loader.
<crimsun> (don't test the exit value, though.)
<Cheery> E: main.c: Failed to kill daemon.
<crimsun> that's fine.
<Cheery> ok, lets see whether this works any better now
<Cheery> argh
<Cheery> alsa does not work any better
<crimsun> if you're trying to use alsa directly, you need to remove libasound2-plugins, too.
<crimsun> (or pass a specific virtual device to alsa-lib)
<Cheery> well, in the end I'd like to get sound working in wine
<crimsun> E.g., speaker-test -c2 -Dplug:hw:0  /not/  speaker-test -c2
<afflux> Cheery: running wine with padsp or pasuspender always worked fine for me.
<afflux> (that's not really -devel either, is it?)
<Cheery> hmm
<Cheery> afflux: well, it seems like the audio works at places now though
<Cheery> it starts to garble when videos come in though
<Cheery> and I have one game which is so dependent on video that it's unplayable without it
<abogani> jdong: I just filled the bug #292289 and attached a possible fix.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 292289 in dkms "Wrong path into man page" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/292289
<jdong> abogani: target it at jaunty, not intrepid
<jdong> abogani: and if you want, do a ubuntu2.1 at intrepid-proposed too
<jdong> and subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors, ubuntu-sru
<doggymenz> the problem with Ubuntu is that it is toooooooooooo slow
<doggymenz> make ubuntu faster, its too slow
<lifeless> doggymenz: what do you mean
<doggymenz> lifeless, i installed Ubuntu on my sister computer, and my brother says its slow and lags and is slower than xp
<lifeless> interesting
<lifeless> this isn't usually the case, so I suggest seeking some help on the forums to figure out why
<doggymenz> and on my machine, i noticed GNOME starts so slow, that even KDE loads faster
<doggymenz> and that open gcalc takes 1-2s in ubuntu, but in xp takes 0sec
<lifeless> definitely sounds like there is an issue; again I suggest you contact the forums
<lifeless> this channel is for doing the development itself - if you wish to do that, I'd be delighted to give you some wiki references to start reading and so on.
<doggymenz> oh ok
<doggymenz> so your gcalc starts instantly, 0sec, blink of an eye, no delay?
<Keybuk> takes about 2-3s
<doggymenz> yeah, i agree... thats what im talking about
<doggymenz> gcalc takes 2-3 sec to start...
<doggymenz> but in windows xp it starts instantly, in blink of eye, no delay, 0 sec!
<Keybuk> so it doesn't sound like you have a problem
<lifeless> mine takes < 1/2 a sec
<doggymenz> well the problem is that it is too slow
<Keybuk> doggymenz: do you know how to make it start faster?
<Keybuk> or do you know how xp manages to start programs faster?
<doggymenz> Keybuk, no, i wish
<doggymenz> no i dont
<doggymenz> but xp does it somehow
<Keybuk> then it's not really a relevant discussion for this channel
<doggymenz> well, someone should figure out how to make it start same fast as xp
<Keybuk> this is not the channel to make such requests
<doggymenz> you are developer guy, you can developer stuff, so you can develop it fast
<Keybuk> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/ is where you can propose development ideas
<lifeless> doggymenz: yes, you're totally right. But *this channel* is for *doing that* not *asking to do that*
<Keybuk> or if you think there's a bug, http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<doggymenz> ok
<doggymenz> but i cant do nothing, im a dumbass, that why i ask other to fix it
<Keybuk> we get literally a million different such requests
<doggymenz> oh :(
<doggymenz> most important is hardware support
<doggymenz> then is usability
<doggymenz> then is perfooooooooooooooooooooormance!!!!!!!11
<Keybuk> for every person that wants the calculator to start faster, another ten want it to have more features
<doggymenz> oh, also security :D
<Keybuk> fast, useful, stable
<doggymenz> i just use gcalc as example of slowliness, i want everything to be faster
<Keybuk> pick any two
<Keybuk> doggymenz: the best way you can help is to find a way for us to make it faster
<Keybuk> and then join the development team and work on that
<doggymenz> i cant, im a dumb
<Keybuk> otherwise you've just tied up half an hour of two developer's time, distracting them from whatever they were working on
<doggymenz> ok, then i leave
<doggymenz> but plz fix
<directhex> sigh
<Keybuk> he's right that gnome stuff takes a ridiculous amount of time to start
<Keybuk> especially since all the libraries gcalc uses should be in the damned page cache
<directhex> ever think "let's just not release the next version, the people on irc and forums etc just make it totally not worth it"?
<Keybuk> it takes that long warm, so it must be something else
<Keybuk> read(11, "GIOP\1\2\1\1$\0\0\0", 12)     = 12
<Keybuk> a lot of that kind of thing in strace
<Keybuk> yay corba
 * Keybuk wonders why the hell a calculator needs corba
<Keybuk> gconf probably
<jcristau> 'xterm -e bc' doesn't need corba \o/
<Treenaks> I tough gnome was phasing out corba?
<Treenaks> +t
<ogra> jcristau, thats something only an X dev could say :P
<Keybuk> Treenaks: ish
<Keybuk> they are all enthusiastic about getting rid of CORBA
<ogra> still in its early stages
<Keybuk> but I've noticed a strong tendency in GNOME to not really do such things
<ogra> but dbus is the future
<Keybuk> dbus is pretty slow too
<Keybuk> lots of round-trips
<jcristau> in the mean time you get dbus + corba
<jcristau> :)
<ogra> yeah :/
<Keybuk> silly really
<Keybuk> you could do dbus variable looks in the client library by just mmapping a database file
<Keybuk> no need to have a daemon roundtrip
<Keybuk> err, gconf variable looks
<Treenaks> Keybuk: ... patches welcome :)
<Keybuk> I have so many patches to write :(
<ogra> Patchbuk ?
<ion_> PatchbukKit
<ogra> heh
<Treenaks> Keybuk: then at least blog about it, so someone who does have time can work on it :)
<Keybuk> Treenaks: to blog, I need to have concrete facts
<Keybuk> relatively high on my todo list is to try and get a decent tracing tool
<Keybuk> something a bit better than bootchart
<Keybuk> then we could get an accurate idea of "this app takes too long doing that"
<Treenaks> Keybuk: better version of http://people.freedesktop.org/~vvaradan/misc/evo/graph-log-level.png?
<Keybuk> that's not very readable ;)
<Keybuk> isn't that just done with printf?
<Treenaks> printf doesn't do the nice lines
<Keybuk> what do the lines mean?
<Treenaks> http://blogs.gnome.org/thos/files/2008/06/1.png might be a better example
<Keybuk> ah, yeah, that's nice
<lifeless> dbus is shudder
<pochu> is intrepid supposed to work on a PS3?
<EvanCarroll> pochu: not in an official capacity.
<EvanCarroll> pochu: there is a version compiled for it
<cjwatson> pochu: I'm told the alternate CD works to some degree; the release notes document the bits where it doesn't
<cjwatson> pochu: the desktop CD is known not to work
<EvanCarroll> nor will it ever, solong as the cell can't process x86 opcodes
<EvanCarroll> anyone using ibex w/ a bluetooth keyboard
<EvanCarroll> I've already filed a bug, I just want to check it.
<cjwatson> the PS3 desktop CD used to work
<cjwatson> so I don't believe "nor will it ever"
<EvanCarroll> I think that the ubuntu HID devices aren't modified by the gnome-keyboard-preferences thingy, that I think uses xmodmap
<EvanCarroll> cjwatson: when when was?
<pochu> it's because of bug 292092. a user is trying to run liferea but it crashes on startup, and from the backtrace it looks like it's crashing in gtk/gobject
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 292092 in liferea "Liferea won't run (only within a second)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/292092
<cjwatson> EvanCarroll: feisty and gutsy
<cjwatson> EvanCarroll: with a USB keyboard, but that's perfectly feasible
<EvanCarroll> cjwatson: even fiesty had an alternate ps3 cd
<EvanCarroll> ps3 should be power arch. and should not work at all with x86, afaik.
<EvanCarroll> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/custom/20071025-gutsy-ps3/ubuntu-7.10-alternate-powerpc+ps3.iso
<cjwatson> EvanCarroll: where did anyone claim it should?
<cjwatson> EvanCarroll: yes, I know, I produced that CD by hand personally
<cjwatson> I am well aware of what it was for
<cjwatson> EvanCarroll: alternate/desktop is a different dimension from CPU architecture
<EvanCarroll> i see, you said the ps3 desktop cd, i ignored the (ps3) part.
<EvanCarroll> yes we are in agreeance.
<cjwatson> I just said "the desktop CD"
<cjwatson> but yes, I assumed "PS3" would be taken as read
<EvanCarroll> too busy trying to figure out why a usb keyboard would work and not a bluetooth keyboard
<EvanCarroll> any ideas on why xmodmap would not affect a usb keyboard
<EvanCarroll> hrm now it seems to work.
<EvanCarroll> awkward.
<EvanCarroll> wait.
<EvanCarroll> yea now it is working
<EvanCarroll> just deleted the old keymap and picked the same one
<EvanCarroll> I'll take it.
<pochu> EvanCarroll: let me know if you can do a quick test on the ps3 :)
<EvanCarroll> pochu: i actually don't have a ps3. I installed a previous version of ubuntu on a friends.
<EvanCarroll> It was fun.
<EvanCarroll> though rather useless.
<EvanCarroll> the PS3 makes a bad computer. it has very fast ram, but not nearly enough.
<directhex> missed opportunity.
<Keybuk> directhex: opportunity for?
<directhex> Keybuk, i dunno, something good. ps3 linux could almost be great, if it weren't pointless junk. a Â£300 blu-ray media station, gaming box, and full desktop pc? that's pretty sweet
<Keybuk> the architecture isn't really optimised for desktop pc like tasts
<Keybuk> tasks
<EvanCarroll> Right. Like 'full' desktop pc, implies at the very least it can play flash.
<Keybuk> I didn't really mean that
<Keybuk> the PS3 is a wonderfully designed machine
<Keybuk> capable of massive symmetric operations, with fast hardware access
<Keybuk> which is great if you're writing games
<Keybuk> but utterly useless for doing spreadsheets
<EvanCarroll> ok, well a different argument just as useful but much harder to make to 95% of the audience.
<Keybuk> PPE/SPU design is *really* bad for a multi-tasking operating system as well
<Keybuk> it's utterly focussed on a single modal application
<Keybuk> like a game, or a dvd, etc.
<Keybuk> as soon as you want to multi-task, you suddenly have the problem of moving tasks between SPUs and the PPE
<Keybuk> and it's realy not designed for that
<Keybuk> it'd be like hiring James Bond, and giving him lots of paperwork
<directhex> Keybuk, the SPU design is pretty sucky for games too - too much time spent manually shepherding segregated threads around
 * torkel would be much more intrested in intrepid for IBM QS22 than for PS3 :-)
<ricosecada> I know that the Ubuntu desktop edition is based upon the Debian unstable branch, but what branch of Debian is the Ubuntu server edition based upon?
<ricosecada> Anyone?
<azeem_> ricosecada: try #ubuntu
<ricosecada> I did
<jdong> calc: holy freaking ouch I feel your pain regarding IO schedulers in Intrepid.
<jdong> there's some sort of regression with responsiveness during heavy disk IO.
<jdong> after a large copy job I ran sync (4G RAM) and it ended up tying up Firefox disk IO for over 2 minutes
#ubuntu-devel 2008-11-02
<Hydrant> hey all... what's the official way to downgrade your kernel?
<RainCT> Hydrant: uhm.. just install an older version and change the grub configuration to use it?
<Hydrant> what about headers and such for the old kernel?
 * Hydrant needs to recompile some things against an old kernel
<Hydrant> I installed linux-image-2.6.24-21-generic... I don't believe that has header info in it though
<bytor4232> Does anyone know when the netboot.tar.gz and mini.iso are being updated?  They are currently broken.
<stgraber> bytor4232: what's broken ? I used netboot.tar.gz yesterday and it worked
<bytor4232> I assume the kernel update last night broke it.
<bytor4232> Try using it right now.
<bytor4232> It gets past the network configuration, and fails when it tried to download the release notes.
<bytor4232> Tried about five different mirrors, same thing.
<stgraber> so internet doesn't work ?
<bytor4232> No, the hardy netboot.tar.gz works fine.
<jdong> ok this system has been unbroken for 3 days. new record. let's change that....
<jdong> wish me luck, today is ext4dev day
<stgraber> bytor4232: where did you get it ? the one from I'm looking at at the moment was generated on the 26th according to the http server, so that can't be the kernel update
<calc> jdong: yea it sucks a lot
<calc> jdong: i just try not to do much disk io
<bytor4232> stgraber, Same timestamp.
<calc> jdong: i didn't realize it just started happening with intrepid since i don't do very heavy disk io very often
<bytor4232> I even tried re-downloading it.
<bytor4232> There was a kernel update last night.
<bytor4232> I know that during development of Intrepid when there was a kernel update, it broke the netboot.tar.gz and mini.iso.  I had to re-download it.
<bytor4232> not re-download it, I had to download the updated version.
<stgraber> bytor4232: nope, the kernel update was actually done on release day (TCP fix). But in this case mini.iso wasn't rebuilt and the md5 matches the one that worked for me on thursday.
<jdong> calc: Hardy never really felt that way
<stgraber> bytor4232: so in your case, I'd say that your ethernet module isn't included in the initrd
<bytor4232> stgraber, No, I can ping out.
<jdong> calc: I am going to try my last resort (AHCI hack) and resort after last resort (ext4dev) and if that all fails then I'm going to be doing some deeper IO layer hacking :)
<bytor4232> stgraber, so you used the mini.iso, not netboot.tar.gz.
<stgraber> bytor4232: no, I used netboot.tar.gz I don't have a cdrom drive on that device :)
<stgraber> bytor4232: did you check tty4, is there an error message more useful than what the installer tells you ?
<bytor4232> stgraber, Not sure why its not working then.
<stgraber> bytor4232: *.archive.ubuntu.com being overloaded may be a reason (getting an http timeout), did you with a mirror outside *.archive.ubuntu.com ?
<bytor4232> stgraber, I did check it, but it scrolled out beyond anything useful.  Does it keep a log file I can post?
<stgraber> bytor4232: /var/log/syslog should contain the installer log
<bytor4232> stgraber, That would be it then.  Maybe its timing out.
<bytor4232> stgraber, all the mirrors I tried were all *.archive
<calc> jdong: ok, is there a bug reported about this already for the kernel?
<jdong> calc: I haven't done a bug report yet because I really don't know what to say.
<stgraber> bytor4232: you can try gulus.usherbrooke.ca this one isn't loaded for sure (just used by Sherbrooke's university and there isn't much Ubuntu user there :))
<jdong> calc: it sounds like one of those vague "yeah this is kinda slow and wasn't before" type reports that won't be terribly helpful
<stgraber> bytor4232: then when installed revert to archive.ubuntu.com (as gulus is a bit laggy and I prefer using official mirrors)
<calc> jdong: hmm well reporting that disk io is really really really slow (causes repaints to take minutes) and that both of us see it might help for the kernel devs to take a look at it
<calc> it should be something they can reproduce fairly easily
<bytor4232> stgraber, BAD signature from "Ubuntu Archive Automatic Signing Key"
<bytor4232> There is a lot of errors on alt-f4
<wgrant> calc, jdong: I think I first started seeing that mid-Hardy, and blamed it on LUKS eating my CPU.
<stgraber> hmm, what the hell did they do, looks like the rsync failed in the middle of the sync ... :(
<calc> wgrant: sorry was does LUKS expand to?
<wgrant> calc: Disk encryption.
<jdong> wgrant: I think it's related to the new scheduler in Hardy/intrepid and how it interacts with CFQ
<wgrant> I recently reinstalled without it, and it's not so bad, but it's still there.
<stgraber> bytor4232: do you remember which *.archive.ubuntu.com you tried ?
<bytor4232> stgrabber anna WARNING bad d-i packages file
<calc> wgrant: oh, i have no encryption so it most likely isn't that
<wgrant> jdong: I suspect so.
<stgraber> bytor4232: a good part of them are actually the same overloaded servers (london) ?
<jdong> wgrant: I also have a slight suspicion that Firefox3's sync() calls aren't helping either.
<bytor4232> stgraber, quite a few
<wgrant> calc: Right, the encryption just makes it worse.
<wgrant> jdong: Mhm.
<jdong> wgrant: forcing 3G of write cache to disk is probably going to hurt response times!
<calc> wgrant: ok
<stgraber> bytor4232: did you try Switzerland ? (ch.archive.ubuntu.com) this one is not one of the London ones so shouldn't be as overloaded as the others
<bytor4232> stgraber, Well what do you know.
<bytor4232> stgraber, switzerland is working.  Not much of a timeout on that.
<calc> gotta run, have to finish packing and go to bed, i have to be up at 4am to catch a flight to Beijing for OOoCon
<srbaker> ugh
<srbaker> i'm finding intrepid to be sluggish
 * ptx0-aWay is Away, Reason: ( sleep ) | Since: ( Wednesday, October 29, 2008. 01:36:44 ) Xlack v2.1
<slangasek> superm1: because the mythbuntu tasks aren't in the archive Packages files, iirc, and are only listed in the Packages files on the mythbuntu ISOs
<superm1> slangasek, so would it be a sane workaround then in livecd-rootfs for now to just use the metapackage rather than the task name?
<slangasek> I... don't know
<slangasek> are you not already using livecd-rootfs for the liveCDs you guys build?
<superm1> well we're doing most of what it does
<superm1> but i wanted to switch everything over to the formal route, and get rid of our old hacks
<superm1> and every time i've tried, too much other stuff is breaking so i've never gotten it all moved over
<slangasek> fwiw, I've found it inconvenient before to not have the mythbuntu tasks in the archive; it would be nice to remedy that
<superm1> do you know what needs to be poked to remedy it?
<slangasek> talking to cjwatson about getting germinate to look at the mythbuntu seeds, I think
<cjwatson> torkel: I believe gutsy did work on QS22, so you could try it ...
<cjwatson> superm1: could you file a bug on https://bugs.launchpad.net/soyuz/+filebug about the mythbuntu tasks thing, please, and let me know the bug number so that I can ack it?
<calc_> good morning
<calc_> weird
<calc_> gnome didn't update its idea of the timezone
<calc_> but the system itself did
<calc_> hmm now it did after looking at the time setting it automatically fixed itself
<cjwatson> ok, let's see if that glibc/jaunty upload builds
<cjwatson> (on ports)
 * calc gone, running to the plane bbia 1 day (19-20hr flight ugh)
<cjwatson> calc: safe travels
 * ogra wonders if it wouldnt be possible to add something like:  hal-find-by-property --key info.linux.driver --string btusb ... to /etc/init.d/bluetooth and make it exit silently
<ogra> indeed in a loop for all possible BT lowlevel drivers
<ogra> hmm, could be easier done by sending a dbus message and check if org.bluez.Device exists
<ogra> aha ... dbus-send --system --type=method_call --print-reply --dest=org.bluez / org.bluez.Manager.ListAdapters
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> only works with bluetooth running ... indeed not what i want
<lool> ogra: Mind hoping in #ubuntu-virt to discuss locale handling ?
 * cjwatson gives back glibc/powerpc to test the hypothesis that tst-pselect is racy
<superm1> sure cjwatson, but 292652
<superm1> oops bug 292652
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 292652 in soyuz "Mythbuntu tasks not reported as installable by apt-get" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/292652
<mohbana> hi, who is is responsible for the emacs 2.3 on ubuntu. i'd like to point out that there isn't even a link to start it. it's the ver. of emacs with AA fonts
<mohbana> anyone?
<RainCT> mohbana: Ubuntu hasn't Maintainers for each package like in Debian
<azeem> mohbana: this channel is not for bug reporting, use launchpad for that
<mohbana> RainCT, what u mean?
<RainCT> mohbana: that there isn't anyone "responsible" for it, but the entire developer team maintains it
<jms32> how to mount NTFS partition in console?
<mdke> jms32: try #ubuntu for support
<jms32> hm... And about what is this channal?
<stgraber> development of Ubuntu
<jms32> oh, sorry
<jms32> Hm... why in ubuntu 8.10 readonhd drivers are not in standart package?
<mohbana> hi, i've installed the adobe reader tar 'AdobeReader_enu-8.1.2_SU1-1.i486.tar.bz2' i.e., from their site
<mohbana> now when i try and start it, it complains
<mohbana> $ acroread
<mohbana> exec: 579: /lib/ld-linux.so.2: not found
<mohbana> please help
<ScottK> Then you should probably talk to them about it.
<ScottK> We really can't support solving problems with third party software.
<ScottK> In any case, #ubuntu is the support channel.
<s0u][ight> hello what are packages that are installed on the live-cd that can be missed?
<ScottK> mohbana: Adobe does have a .deb installation option.  You'd likely have more luck with that.
<mohbana> ScottK, i'm on a 64bit isntall
<s0u][ight> i need to strip the iso to a 480 mb one
<ScottK> Oh.  No idea then.
<s0u][ight> i still need to clear up about 80 mbs software
<murdok> hi pochu :)
 * pochu waves at murdok :)
<tlbdk> hey, just stated on my first PPA project and wanted to get a little info on how it's all working
<ScottK> tlbdk: PPA questions in #launchpad.
<tlbdk> OK, thanks
<Laney> Heh, DIF on Christams day
<tlbdk> Another question that also might be for another channel, so sorry for that, the packages in working on is Ekiga 3.0.1 that I have working without non-free codecs.
<tlbdk> As it uses ffmpeg for codec support and the default version in ubuntu only has free codecs enabled.
<siretart> tlbdk: what are 'free codecs'?
<tlbdk> does the exists a version of ffmpeg with support for patent encumbered codecs(non free if you need the debian package comments)
<siretart> EPARSEERROR
<tlbdk> siretart, I looked in the ffmpeg package and I could several codecs where disabled do to being "nonfree code"
<tlbdk> see
<siretart> that is wrong. ffmpeg does not contain any non-free code upstream
<siretart> what codec do you require?
<tlbdk> MPEG4 Part 2 and H.263+
<tlbdk> as i understand it, they should be provided in ffmpeg
<siretart> no idea what you mean with mpeg4 part2, but the h263 encoder is indeed disabled in the ubuntu libavcodec51 package in ubuntu intrepid
<siretart> however that encoder is available in libavcodec-unstripped-51 package in intrepid/multiverse
<tlbdk> http://wiki.ekiga.org/index.php/Additional_Information#H.264.2C_MPEG4_Part_2_and_H.263.2B_.2F_H.263-1998_using_debian_prebuild_binaries_.28maybe_working_for_UBUNTU.2C_too.29
<siretart> the h263 decoder OTOH is available in both versions
<tlbdk> libavcodec-unstripped-51??
<tlbdk> and why does the version in the end change for every release?
<siretart> bah, that page is recommending users to fetch the broken packages from debian-multimedia.org
<siretart> ignore that page
<siretart> the numbers in the end are for the library versioning. google for the shared library packaging howto
<tlbdk> ok, so I need to created two different versions of the package if I want to make it both for hardy and intrepid as the depends would be different.
<tlbdk> the unstripped in libavcodec-unstripped-51 does that mean that it's the version with debug symbols?
<tlbdk> and if that's the case would that not be a bad idea to depend on?
<siretart> no, it means that the debian/strip.sh, which disables some encoders like h263 was not run before creating the source package
<tlbdk> ok, so the best option would be to create two version, one that depends on libavcodec-unstripped-51 and one that depends on libavcodec51
<NCommander> ScottK, around?
<ScottK> NCommander: Sure.
<savvas> hello, does anyone know if there's a way to specify /etc/security/time.conf from a different file/folder? e.g. /etc/security/time.conf.d/ ?:)
 * directhex reads debian-devel@lists, notes slangasek is enjoying interaction with my current favourite DD in the whole world
<cjwatson> Laney: note the question mark; that's a recognised problem and is strictly provisional
<cjwatson> could somebody in ~launchpad-buildd-admins bump up glibc's build score on hppa?
<cjwatson> I'd like to find out whether it's going to fail
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: request granted.
 * Hobbsee idly wishes buildd.py worked for that, still.
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: primero's fallen over again - i presume elmo isn't awake to fix it?
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: thanks
<cjwatson> elmo: ^-
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: you're welcome.
<cjwatson> +Original author: Joe Thornber (thornber@sistina.com)
 * cjwatson completely misreads in the light of the current US election campaign
<lordhelmet> hey. how do i compile something with debug symbols for the standard c library with gcc?
<Laney> cjwatson: Hm?
<Laney> Oh, DIF
<cjwatson> Laney: right
<Laney> Yes, that seems like a problematic date
<cjwatson> I agree. The problem is that the other possible dates are also problematic in different ways. I've already asked various people for advice.
<Laney> cjwatson: Are you release manager for Jaunty? Or just taking on this task?
<Hobbsee> Laney: he's part of the release team, but the release manager is slangasek
 * Laney nods
<Laney> I thought it might have rotated
<LordMetroid> Is there a specific reason why usb wifi-peripherals required drivers to be loaded though ncurses?
<LordMetroid> *s/d/s
<LordMetroid> *through
<jdong> WHOO, alsa panicked!
<jdong> my punishment for trying upstream 1.0.18 to see if it makes sound quirk less
<wgrant> jdong: I blame it on ext4.
<jdong> haha
<ajmitch> ext4 is crack for the new generation?
<jdong> no way, btrfs is crack :)
<wgrant> ext4 hasn't eaten my root filesystem yet.
<ajmitch> that's a good thing
<wgrant> Debatable.
<ajmitch> would you prefer it to be eating your filesystem?
<wgrant> Probably. It would probably stop me from using such crack in future.
<ajmitch> surely it'll be stable by the time 2.6.28 is released?
#ubuntu-devel 2009-10-26
<YokoZar> Can anyone shed a bit of light on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/wine/+bug/460596  ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460596 in wine "package wine 1.0.1-0ubuntu7 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,New]
<YokoZar> wine.postinst has this line that I suspect is erroring: service procps start
 * ccheney thinks something is broken with his mac address on his new pc, its 00:00:00:00:00:30 
<hyperair> lol
 * ccheney probably should contact tech support for his board to see what is going on
<superm1> pitti, can you determine why the retracer hasn't ran on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/mythbuntu/+bug/452508/+index ?
<ubottu> Error: This bug is private
<superm1> pitti, it's about 10 days old
<superm1> it's a PPA build, but we (attempt to) build them with debug symbols
<YokoZar> kees: ping
<YokoZar> kees: Am I committing a horrible sin if I invoke `sysctl -p /etc/sysctl.d/30-wine.conf` directly in a maintainer script rather than reloading the entire configuration?  The problem is that using `start procps` can fail at package install time.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/447197
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 447197 in wine1.2 "package wine 1.0.1-0ubuntu6 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,In progress]
<al-maisan> Good morning
<virtuald> YokoZar: That would wipe my later sysctl rule. Look at what the upstart or init script tries to do
<YokoZar> virtuald: Yeah that was my thought.  I can't figure out why procps doesn't support a restart command though (for reloading all the config files)
<virtuald> I haven't looked at it much should probably get out of bed first :)
<YokoZar> virtuald: the entirety of procps is in /etc/init.d/procps.conf and is basically:     cat /etc/sysctl.d/*.conf /etc/sysctl.conf | sysctl -p -
<YokoZar> but it contains no restart instructions (not too familiar with upstart syntax at the moment)
<YokoZar> I suppose I could just put `cat /etc/sysctl.d/*.conf /etc/sysctl.conf | sysctl -p -` into the maintainer script but that's an ugly thing to do.
<pitti> Good morning
<YokoZar> Good morning pitti :)
<pitti> apw: oh, kerneloops catches those?
<maco> hi folks
<pitti> hey YokoZar, how are you?
<YokoZar> pitti: surprisingly busy with last minute fixes (aside from the final polish to app-install-data I'm hammering out, there's the procps stuff I ran into above ;) )
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> superm1: 452508> it's not an ubuntu bug, but an upstream one; retracers can only deal with ubuntu packages
<tkamppeter> pitti, hi
<pitti> hey tkamppeter
<tkamppeter> I have done a one-byte fix in the cpdftops filter as there is a bug preventing setting printers to single-sided when duplex is set by default. This affects all PostScript printers. I have committed it to the CUPS BZR.
<tkamppeter> Should we take it into Karmic?
<pitti> tkamppeter: should be done as SRU now, if it's important enough
<tkamppeter> OK, so I leave it alone until SRU can be posted.
<ion> keybuk: O hai. I just sent you an email.
<Keybuk> ion: what was your e-mail?
<apw> hey pitti is apport going to be enabled following release this time?
<ion> keybuk: The content of the message? Or do you mean my address?
<pitti> apw: no, already disabled (right after RC)
<Keybuk> ion: the content of the message
<apw> pitti, thanks ... so we don't really need to worry about this kerneloops issue then as such
<Keybuk> oh, yes
<Keybuk> I saw that this morning
<pitti> apw: well, disabling apport won't disable kerneloops, so I guess it'll still write kerneloops reports; they just won't be displayed through apport any more
<ion> keybuk: An RFC-ish patch i donât expect to make it into mountall as-is at least. :-P
<slangasek> Keybuk: hi, mountall / usplash still not uploaded?
<Keybuk> ion: I just figured that the overflow would not be "that bad"
<ion> True
<Keybuk> slangasek: in PPA and being tested
<apw> pitti, but it is the processing in apport which pushes them to kerneloops from what i saw so they won't get reported either ... not that it shouldn't be fixed just trying to work out if we have any impact doing so
<pitti> apw: right, it doesn't seem release critical to me
<apw> pitti, ack and thanks
<slangasek> Keybuk: please get it in the queue so the release team review can happen in parallel, that's critical path for starting ISO testing today
<Keybuk> slangasek: as soon as I've done a reboot test myself
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<Keybuk> which I would be doing, if you weren't bugging me about it ;)
<asac> mdke: there?
<mdke> asac: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<asac> mdke: bot?
<asac> mdke: check out 460225 ... the index.html is not in ubuntu-docs anymore?
<slangasek> YokoZar: I don't see the point in re-adding fltk1.1 to ia32-libs; I proposed that as a solution because the use case for it is minimal, not just because fltk1.1 was broken
<YokoZar> slangasek: You're right that the use case for adding it was minimal, but there may be other apps that use it since it was added and removing it would be a regression
<slangasek> <shrug> not a regression I think we should care about, it's ia32-libs
<asac> hmm ... still ia32libs wrestline
 * TheMuso is just glad he doesn't have to touch it that often.
<asac> whatever helps to get ia32libs updated is much better than a fltk regression
<TheMuso> s/just//
<asac> YokoZar: ^^
<slangasek> asac: hrm?  ia32-libs was /already/ updated; are you saying you care about 32-bit fltk?
<asac> no
<asac> slangasek: i just thought it wasnt updated and this was still discussion about something blocking it ;)
<YokoZar> slangasek: a few packages other than fltk were freshened in the latest update, btw
<YokoZar> I don't see the harm it does by including it, so why not
<slangasek> the harm it does is that ia32-libs could as well be named ia32-everything-and-the-kitchen-sink-avoid-like-the-plauge
<slangasek> plague
<slangasek> including libs that no one needs makes it harder to maintain
<asac> i am more scared bout bug 460225 that says that we have no /usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html on CD :/
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460225 in ubufox "Firefox v 3.5.3 Home Page Error" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460225
<asac> asked on -testing to get someone verify it
<YokoZar> slangasek: I thought the goal was to get rid of all of them next release using the magic of multiarch or something
<TheMuso> slangasek: Been playing with livecd-rootfs locally here, and have found an uninstallability issue with libgd2 and libgd2-xpm. Thought I'd let you know so time wasn't lost building, and finding the failure in teh livefs for ubuntu, and uploading a fix. Not sure how to fix atm, haven't dug into it.
<slangasek> YokoZar: yes; but you're still increasing the maintenance burden for karmic-updates in the event of security issues, and it's not 100% certain we'll be rid of ia32-libs for lucid either (though I'm going to try really hard to see it happen)
 * TheMuso updates his mirror to see if the error was transient.
<slangasek> TheMuso: what uninstallability issue?  libgd2-xpm and libgd2-noxpm are not coinstallable; we've carefully forced everything to use libgd2-xpm by preference, so we don't have to worry about this
<YokoZar> Yes, a security issue in fltk would force an ia32-libs update.
<YokoZar> but it's already forcing that update onto jaunty and intrepid and hardy because they have fltk too
<Keybuk> pitti: the apport assert catching stuff appears to be working nicely for upstart - I'm getting bugs \o/
<YokoZar> (in ia32-libs that is)
<TheMuso> slangasek: hrm ok, I'll see if I can reproduce, it could be transient.
<Keybuk> (from the code that spawns services sadly, not init itself yet)
<slangasek> YokoZar: no, I mean that adding random crap to that package makes it more time consuming to update it for *any* security update
<slangasek> because it's a grotesque CD-size source package
<YokoZar> slangasek: Yeah, as someone who's had to borrow his girlfriend's internet to update this package about 10 times now (since it dies on my home internet due to hugeness), I'm quite aware of this.
<YokoZar> It's at that point where updating it is basically "leave it on overnight" though
<TheMuso> YokoZar: Yes, I've had to do that, or during the day when nobody is on the net. I have come back to it a couple of times and its died mid upload.
<YokoZar> TheMuso: the worst is how it'll stall with 1k left (I've seen this behavior and it seems to be ISP-dependent)
<TheMuso> YokoZar: Ouch.
<slangasek> Keybuk: did you build-test this mountall upload?  Makefile.in has vanished
<Keybuk> slangasek: I test built the code
<Keybuk> who knows what bzr-builddeb did
<Keybuk> can you reject them both (usplash probably had the same issue)
<slangasek> bzr-builddeb exported the package as it existed in the bzr repo
<Keybuk> oh, how silly
<slangasek> yes, will reject
<Keybuk> was the usplash one ok?
<Keybuk> can I upload again now?
<slangasek> Keybuk: yes, you can reupload
<slangasek> haven't looked at usplash yet, checking now
<mvo> lool: bug #456523 looks like gtk-doc-tools need a depenency on emacsen-common ? (see comment 5 in the bug)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 456523 in gtk-doc "Distribution Upgrade to karmic freezes on gtk-doc-tools" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/456523
<Keybuk> usplash looks ok, looks like it just dropped the .bzr
<Keybuk> the mountall bzr tree is a bit "odd"
<slangasek> usplash looks ok> confirmed
<Keybuk> I should repackage mountall like upstart
<Keybuk> where the "upstream" repo has the code
<Keybuk> but the "ubuntu" repo is buildable (with libnih merged in, etc.)
<Keybuk> or just make the ubuntu repo buildable
<lifeless> have a chat with james_w, see what went wrong
<slangasek> nothing went wrong :)
<slangasek> no reason to expect bzr bd to run ./autogen.sh for you
<lifeless> heh
<Keybuk> slangasek: yeah, it's the whole "you don't put Makefile.in in bzr" thing
<pitti> Keybuk: I suppose I should reject the older mountall upload?
<slangasek> Keybuk: absolutely; for most packages this works fine because it's expected that something other than bzr bd has done this as part of the tarball generation :)
<Keybuk> lifeless: have you fixed the bzr bug yet where it screws up timestamps?
<Keybuk> slangasek: yeah, though it's an interesting case that --native *might* need autoreconf running
<Keybuk> it's almost a would-be-nice that if there's configure.ac but not configure, run autoreconf
<slangasek> could put it in debian/rules
<slangasek> not make bd guess
<Keybuk> sure, but then you'd need a build-depend
<Keybuk> configure should be in the tar.gz
<slangasek> could do if [ ! -e ./configure ] in debian/rules :)
<Keybuk> slangasek: doesn't remove the build-depend need
<Keybuk> bzr bugs notwithstanding, it should be ok to put autofoo stuff in the bzr repo now
<Keybuk> it works for upstart
<Keybuk> and libnih needs to be in mountall too ;)
<slangasek> sure it does, if the code path is never hit during a normal package build
<Keybuk> (bzr still has the bug where it doesn't apply the same timestamp to all files touched during a checkout/update)
<lifeless> I build-dep on autoconf as a matter of course
<lifeless> Keybuk: we should make that a higher priorty bug with the new focus
<slangasek> I make packages build-dep on autoconf when they use scons
<lifeless> slangasek: evil :)
<TheMuso> heh
<slangasek> Keybuk: month's worth of libnih updates - bah
<Keybuk> month's worth?
<slangasek> innit?
<slangasek> I was going by timestamps in the debdiff
<Keybuk> are there actual code changes there?
<slangasek> lots
<Keybuk> really?
<Keybuk> bzr diff said it was the same
<Keybuk> let me check myself
<slangasek>  mdebdiff -s karmic *.dsc | filterdiff -i '**/nih**/**'|wc -l
<slangasek> 2605
<Keybuk> huh, I honestly don't know why those changes *aren't* in 0.2.5
<Keybuk> but most of them aren't even in bits that mountall touches
<slangasek> how safe are the ones that are? :)
<Keybuk> oh, utterly safe
<Keybuk> they're all bug fixes
<Keybuk> valgrind errors
<Keybuk> this is the same code as upstart is using
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> (you're sure of that part, right? :)
<Keybuk> very sure
<Keybuk> because the patch includes the glibc __abort_msg thing
<Keybuk> that means apport catches nih_assert()
<Keybuk> and I've definitely been getting those from Upstart
 * slangasek nods
<Keybuk> and the patch includes the cross-compiling support
<Keybuk> which cjwatson *really* wants ;)
<Keybuk> I need to fix the mountall repo clearly
<Keybuk> let me do that now
 * Keybuk tries to remember what bzr dark magic he did to make the upstart tree
<mvo> Keybuk: please share that wisdom about the dark magic with me
<Keybuk> mvo: I found a way to join the history of the two repositories together
<Keybuk> so that "bzr merge lp:upstart" *and* "bzr merge lp:libnih" worked
<Keybuk> with the resulting repo containing files from both
<lifeless> Keybuk: bzr merge-into
<lifeless> its aplugin
<Keybuk> lifeless: which didn't work
<Keybuk> neither did join
<lifeless> merge-into should have
<lifeless> your other option is merge -r 0..-1
<mvo> nice, is there a way to track a merge-into branch (maybe even automatically?)
<Keybuk> lifeless: right, I think I did the latter, then fixed up some renames and removed some files
<lifeless> merge-into just automates the management of the root dir rather than getting conflicts on NEWS etc
<Keybuk> lifeless: that's the bit it screwed up on! :)
<lifeless> :(
<lifeless> did you file a bug?
<Keybuk> probably, yes
<Keybuk> I usually do
<Keybuk> or I might have msg'd the guy
<Keybuk> slangasek: ok, the mountall repo is now directly buildable ;-)
 * asac hugs kees (459199)
<slangasek> asac: Debian policy is not broken and will not be changed; Debian policy is older than your 10 year UID. :)
<asac> slangasek: really?
<asac> kees said it was an ancient debian UID
<Riddell> asac, mdke: bug 460225 has nothing to do with kubuntu, we don't use firefox in kubuntu, please don't assign bugs to kubuntu for software that has nothing to do with us
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460225 in ubufox "Firefox v 3.5.3 Home Page Error" [High,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460225
<slangasek> asac: he's mistaken
<asac> slangasek: i thought my uid was also created using debian
<asac> but i could be wrong
<slangasek> well
<asac> slangasek: the policy claim was more or less a joke ;)
<asac> i think it should be done by checking whether an account is a valid log-in account
<slangasek> perhaps I should double-check the history; /I/ don't remember UID 501 ever being considered ok on Debian, I believe that was /Red Hat's/ UID policy
<cjwatson> slangasek: correct
<slangasek> asac: I agree with you that gdm/ck-history shouldn't hard-code the uid policy, though :)
<asac> too long ago for me to tell for sure ...
<cjwatson> it was considered OK in the sense that we were happy to accept such UIDs, though
<cjwatson> just not create them
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> this is at least in part because Ian had UID 100 hanging around from a previous installation
 * slangasek grins
<asac> haha
<asac> i think 100 is solaris
<slangasek> yeah, my colo server is happily running with a dozen users with UIDs numbered from 500
<asac> at least that what i got when googling for random UID bounds
<slangasek> and it's not Red Hat ;)
<cjwatson> not in this case, but sure
<slangasek> TheMuso: rejecting this brasero upload, SRU please
<TheMuso> slangasek: Ok will pass that onto Robert.
<lool> mvo: Looking
<lool> mvo: This is odd
<lool> mvo: gtk-doc-tools only uses the dh_installemacsen snippet; dh_installemacsen doesn't add a dependency and I dont have /usr/lib/emacsen-common/emacs-package-install so it seems perfectly fine not to install emacsen-common
<lool> mvo: It seems to me the dh_installemacsen snippet should also check whether emacsen-common is configured rather than for mere availability
<lool> mvo: There are a bunch of other packages with that snippet even in the default install
<lool> mvo: Hmm no, not that many sorry, too large grep
<lool> mvo: However I have packages "global" and "lbdb" on my system which have the same snippet and no dep
<lool> mvo: it's probably too late to fix this at this point though; perhaps we could fix emacsen-common to just not do anything if packages try to use the hook before configuration, but not raise an error?
<slangasek> zul: bug #451314> in what sense is this making zlib "shared"? the package already depends on zlib1g
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 451314 in php5 "PHP 5.2.10 zlib bug remains for 32bit" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/451314
<lool> mvo: Happy if you can test emacsen-common_1.4.19ubuntu1~dooz1 in my PPA
<zul> slangasek: in the sense that zlib.so is not statically built into php itself
<slangasek> zul: oh. why does that cause this bug?
<zul> slangasek: i think its something they changed in newer versions of php, we had multiple bug reports that the zlib functions werent working, i thought it was something that broke in 5.2.10 that they fixed in 5.2.11 but it was not, and poking around other distros load it as shared now
<zul> slangasek: also things like pear looked like it wasnt able to unpack any packages it was downloading
<slangasek> zul: well, this is going to regress any code that expects the functions to be there without having to configure it for loading, no?  or is the installed php.ini set up to already load it?
<zul> slangasek: it shouldnt regress anything
<slangasek> (whine, all the bad memories)
<slangasek> zul: explain, please
<zul> slangasek: when it was not shared we were having problems like 432291 and  439407]
<zul> bug  439407]
<zul> bug  439407
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 439407 in php5 "Abort class-pclzip.php : Missing zlib extensions (dup-of: 451405)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/439407
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 451405 in php5 "zlib extension missing in php5 karmic " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/451405
<zul> bug 432291
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 432291 in php5 ""Fatal error: Call to undefined function gzopen()" on php5 5.2.10.dfsg.1-2ubuntu3 (dup-of: 451405)" [Undecided,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/432291
<zul> slangasek: if you want you could reject the upload and I could write a better changelog entry for it
<slangasek> zul: it's faster to come to a conclusion here
<slangasek> anyway, the above doesn't prove it won't regress in exactly the way I've described
<slangasek> maxb: I don't buy this texinfo fix - why is mb_len() overflowing an int on amd64, but not on i386, when using the same manpage?  Why should the multibyte sequence *ever* exceed 2^32 bytes in length?
<slangasek> zul: I see nothing in the php5 packaging that would ensure zlib module autoloading
<slangasek> zul: so unless I've overlooked something, there is a regression here: currently gzfile() works without having to load the module, after the change something has to load it
<maxb> slangasek: Hmm, I just bisected upstream and observed they had a fix which does actually work :-/
<maxb> Also, the triggering 'multibyte sequence' is in fact a tab character
<slangasek> zul: (gzopen() is still broken, yes - but that doesn't mean we should regress other code that doesn't need gzopen())
<slangasek> maxb: yep - but the patch makes no sense; if it fixes anything, it appears to do so as a side effect?
<slangasek> (unless something is passing &cur_len later... let's see)
<slangasek> oh - indeed something is
<slangasek> ok, that makes sense now
<maxb> I guess so. I'll try to look into it if you don't. I admit my thought processes didn't advance much beyond, "oh good, upstream have fixed it"
<Kano> cjwatson: https://bugs.launchpad.net/lupin/+bug/460740
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460740 in lupin "ext4 not supported for loopback" [Undecided,New]
<zul> slangasek: php does the loading for you not the packaging
<slangasek> zul: when and how?  How does it know you want the zlib.so loaded?
<mvo> lool: the diff looks good, I don't ahve a way to reproduce the issue myself, but I think the fix is good
<zul> slangasek: its done through the php.ini file or loaded dynamically
<zul> in zlib's case i believe its done dynamically
<soren> Really? When did it start doing this?
<soren> (loading extensions dynamically, that is)
<zul> soren: when its built as shared
<slangasek> maxb: ok - the fix looks good, but the change isn't critical, so it'll go into release only if we have to respin for something else
<soren> zul: No, I mean when did php start doing stuff like this? Back when I cared about php at all, it had no mechanism for automatically loading extensions. I always had to add them to the php.ini.
<slangasek> maxb: if not, looks good for an immediate SRU
<maxb> fair enough
<slangasek> zul: I'm going to require empirical proof that this is the case, not "I believe"; especially since /I/ believe php upstream isn't that clever
<soren> zul: You don't need to look up when it started doing it. I'm just surprised, but if you're sure...
<zul> soren: its done it for a while now
<zul> slangasek: ok then
<slangasek> zul: so if Till's var_dump() test works with the package you uploaded, I'm convinced
<slangasek> otherwise, I think what's really happening is that the code you're testing has provisions to load the module, thus hiding the regression
<zul> slangasek: sure Ill add it to the bug report
<cjwatson> Kano: committed, thanks
<Kano> good
<Kano> just tested a new grub yesterday and it did not want to boot from ext4
<Kano> grub2 is really cool as it supports loopback
<Kano> now $var works, not only ${var}
<slangasek> zul: ok, thanks
<Kano> http://paste.debian.net/49971/
<Kano> example
<dpm> hi slangasek, pitti. I would like to point you to bug 410234 and bug 457632 to be considered for a post RC update - if it's not too late and if you consider it appropriate
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 410234 in ubuntu-translations "Xsane menu entry is not translatable" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/410234
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 457632 in ubuntu-translations "Desktop entry needs the X-Ubuntu-Gettext-Domain key" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/457632
<Keybuk> cjwatson: if you feel like a C-related challenge, could you read through bug 436758 (esp. my most recent comment)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 436758 in ubuntu-release-notes "upstart doesn't boot on sparc" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/436758
<Keybuk> (when my most recent comment shows up)
<slangasek> njpatel: was reviewing this netbook-launcher change; isn't this solution racy, assuming that waiting 2 seconds is sufficient?
<slangasek> lool: ^^ let's discuss here
<hgomersall> I'm trying to debug a suspend issue on my laptop. Can anybody point me to the best channel for expertise on this?
<lool> njpatel, slangasek: 13:42 < lool> njpatel|lunch: Perhaps a way to address slangasek's concerns is  to use a static var near the toggle desktop thing in  netbook-launcher which would fire a g_idle with no delay the  first time toggle desktop is hit
<Pici> hgomersall: #ubuntu or #ubuntu+1 , depending on what version of Ubuntu you're running
<mvo> Keybuk: should I add a check sparc into u-m and warn/error on upgrade ? or do expect a fix very soon?
<hgomersall> Pici: its karmic, is that +1?
<Keybuk> mvo: it's in the release notes
<Keybuk> "sparc is fail"
<Pici> hgomersall: yes
<hgomersall> Pici: thanks!
<cjwatson> Keybuk: while sizeof does include padding for the size of the object in question, it doesn't necessarily include padding for every conceivable type of object that might fall after it. I don't think you're correct that pointers are the largest possible alignment; long long needs to be 8-byte-aligned, AFAIK
<cjwatson> Keybuk: so if there's an odd number of NihAllocCtx structures followed by (e.g.) something including a long long, won't the long long be misaligned?
<slangasek> long long> there are archs that require alignment greater than the word size?
<cjwatson> hi, sparc
<cjwatson> according to some random document I found on sun.com, yes
<slangasek> heh
<spaetz> Just checked svn log. t@h had close to realtime rendering since 03-2007 at least...
<spaetz> oops, sorry
<cjwatson> http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819-3196/6n5ed4hm7?a=view
<Keybuk> cjwatson: not sure
<Keybuk> let me check
<cjwatson> Keybuk: that would be my interpretation, and it explains why aligning on 24 rather than 20 would fix things
<cjwatson> (I don't think -m64 matters, don't we build sparc32 userspace?)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: because 24/8 is 3
 * Keybuk wonders what he uses that includes a long long
<cjwatson> I don't have a full list of alignment requirements; long long may not be the only such
<Keybuk> so if you have a structure that contains a 8-byte alignment word
<Keybuk> would that, itself, be 8-byte alignment?
<cjwatson> it must be aligned such that the 8-byte alignment member is aligned appropriately
<Keybuk> but alignof for a struct with a long long doesn't work ;)
<Keybuk> it says 4
<cjwatson> it may well be done with padding
<cjwatson> oh, padding wouldn't work
<slangasek> can't be reliably done with padding unless the alignment of the struct itself is enforced
<cjwatson> yeah
<Keybuk> oh, sorry, I'm a numpty
<Riddell> how can I get quilt to apply a patch only on a specific architecture?
<slangasek> Riddell: <cough> dynamically construct your series file via debian/rules
<Keybuk> right, if you have something 8-byte aligned at the front of the structure
<pitti> Riddell: with "series" you can't AFAIK; call quitl in debian/rules or use dpatch :)
<Keybuk> or sometimes in the structure (if it can't be solved with padding between elements)
<Keybuk> then yes, the alignof does return 8
<Keybuk> so this would only affect certain structs
<Riddell> hmm, ok, I'll work out another way
<cjwatson> the C spec suggests that double is guaranteed to be the largest alignment
<cjwatson> (from a footnote to the definition of malloc)
<Keybuk> ooh
<pitti> Riddell: what about applying it all the time and use #if defined(__sparc__) or so?
<Keybuk> cjwatson: always guaranteed?
<Riddell> pitti: it's a cmake file, not sure how to get cmake to do that
<Keybuk> so the problem isn't the alignment of the struct, the problem is that the pointer returned (following the struct) must be absolutely neutrally aligned
<cjwatson> actually sorry it's a footnote to sizeof
<cjwatson> oh, bah, I'm misreading!
<Keybuk> so __alignof__ (double) * ((sizeof (NihAllocCtx) - 1) / __alignof__ (double) + 1)
<Keybuk> ?
<cjwatson> no, I missed a bit in the example
<Keybuk> oh
 * cjwatson reads some more
<Keybuk> but yeah, I see that it must be aligned to the largest possible alignment
<Keybuk> because what follows it must be aligned
<Keybuk> so the problem is finding the largest possible alignment
<cjwatson> glibc's malloc just does 2*sizeof(size_t)
<cjwatson> with a comment that the only problem is -mlong-double-128 on powerpc, and that a better definition would be max(2 * sizeof(size_t), __alignof__(long double)) but that it can't use this due to compatibility problems
<liw> I'd assume long double would be the largest possible alignment of the standard types
<cjwatson> so you probably want to use the latter
<Keybuk> cjwatson: yeah was just reading that exact code
<cjwatson> I'm going to guess (possibly unwisely) that there isn't a better way or glibc would be using it :)
<lool> slangasek: 14:05 < njpatel|lunch> lool: I don't think 2sec delay is that bad. We don't  know how many times toggle desktop is hit during start  up, so we can't be sure that it will work on the first  one
<Keybuk> cjwatson: we could burn Sun to the ground
<lool> njpatel: Shall we count them in a log message and use that approach if it's only called once?
<slangasek> lool: the concern I have is not with delay, it's with 2 sec not being long /enough/
<lool> slangasek: I kind of agree with you as I have seen the interface load really slowly in virtualbox
<njpatel> slangasek: the delay is to skip the idle handlers that were registered by wnck and to receive x events. I believe it's more than long enough, I can't see where you wouldn't get those events and not have bigger issues to worry about.
<njpatel> slangasek: lool: I can re-do with an g_idle_add instead, and I'm pretty sure it would still work, if that is easier to digest
<njpatel> lool: I can create some debs in a few minutes and ask jamie to test
<slangasek> njpatel: I don't think I understand what you mean about skipping handlers
<njpatel> slangasek: we need to let the launcher receive events from X and wnck. the timeout can probably be replaced by a g_idle_add, which would have the same effect. I'm rebuilding some debs with the patch so lool/david/jamie can test.
<njpatel> that would get rid of the g_timeout_8
<njpatel> g_timeout_add_seconds*
<slangasek> njpatel: ah, ok
<njpatel> http://people.canonical.com/~njpatel/netbook-launcher_2.1.12-0ubuntu1_i386.deb has the updated fix. Jamie is going to try it out in a bit. I'll update here when we get some results.
<primes2h> cr3: I checked updated installation of Karmic. Checkbox strings are translated all but those with /
<cr3> primes2h: I've encountered a couple serious bugs this weekend, so I might be able to push an update into karmic. thanks for the heads up
<primes2h> cr3: That's nice. so are you going to ask for a ffe? or you mean after the release.
<cr3> primes2h: ffe
<caio> can anyone explain me why ubuntu uses 1500 as default mtu? most websites does not allow mtu up to 1492 :(
<primes2h> cr3: Great. Thank you very much. Tell me if you  need some feedback. :)
<cjwatson> caio: I don't believe we do; we accept the MTU set by your DHCP server
<cjwatson> caio: so, if you run the DHCP server, reconfigure it; otherwise, complain to your ISP
<soren> What triggers configuration of the loopback device?
<slangasek> soren: /etc/init/networking.conf
<soren> slangasek: Really? It used to be brought up by S40networking?
<soren> That late?
<caio> cjwatson: only strange, because a laptop with windows wasn't affected with this mtu problem
<slangasek> soren: late?  When else would it have been brought up (and why)?
<caio> maybe windows already configured with 1492 instead of automatic mtu?
<soren> slangasek: rc2.d/S40 just seems late for something like that.
<kirkland> cjwatson: slangasek: mdz: I'm here now; do we still need assistance with the iscsi-on-root issue?
<slangasek> soren: it wasn't in rc2
<soren> Oh. Oh, right.
 * soren facepalms
<soren> my bad.
<slangasek> kirkland: I believe you know everything I do about the current status
<kirkland> slangasek: i was afraid of that...  okay, i'll go reproduce the issue
<soren> Ok, I need help working this upstart stuff out.. networking runs once something has emitted local-filesystems and udevtrigger has stopped). rc-sysvinit sets runlevel and runs when "filesystems" is emitted... So once mountall is done, it emits "local-filesystems" as well as "filesystems"...
<soren> and thus triggers runlevel 2.
<soren> But networking might still be waiting for udevtrigger to finish, right?
<soren> Does udevtrigger block at all?
<soren> I forget.
<slangasek> soren: udevtrigger does what it says on the box^W^W^W in /etc/init/udevtrigger.conf
<cr3> bryce__: hi there, let me know when you have a moment to follow up on bug #427932
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 427932 in checkbox "[MASTER] Karmic alpha: Checkbox cannot switch display modes in display test" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/427932
<slangasek> soren: and local-filesystems is emitted when there are no more local filesystems to mount, not when it's "done"
<soren> slangasek: Are they not functionally equivalent?
<slangasek> no
<slangasek> soren: so is this about the iscsi stuff?
<soren> slangasek: Not at all.
<slangasek> ok, n/m then
<slangasek> local-filesystems is specifically emitted when all the *local* filesystems are mounted
<soren> So when an upstart job description says "emits foo", what does that mean?
<slangasek> you don't want networking to block waiting for remote filesystems to be mounted first
<slangasek> soren: it's documentation only
<soren> slangasek: upstart doesn't even look at it?
<slangasek> nope
<soren> I see.
<soren> That explains a lot.
<soren> A whole lot, actually.
<slangasek> (cf. init(5))
<soren> Ah, /that/'s the man page to look for!
<soren> And mountall (the binary, not the job) emits those events?
<soren> ttx: ^^ You may want to follow this :)
<slangasek> correct
<soren> Interesting.
 * ttx looks
<slangasek> emitting is done by the equivalent of '/sbin/initctl emit <foo>'
<soren> Right.
<soren> Ok, so now that we've cleared that up.. I'm still not sure how I can be sure that networking is run before we start processing rc2.d init scripts.
<soren> couldn't networking still be waiting for udevtrigger?
<soren> Or will mountall perhaps not finish (thus emitting filesystems) until udevtrigger finishes?
<soren> That would sort of make sense, but I don't see that logic anywhere.
<slangasek> "waiting" meaning "hanging", or "waiting" meaning "waiting"?
<soren> Yes?
<slangasek> udevtrigger calls 'udevadm trigger' && 'udevadm settle'
<soren> waiting, I think.
<soren> Yes.
<slangasek> this shouldn't hang
<soren> udevadm setting in post-stop, though.
<soren> I thought udevadm settle blocked until it's done processing events?
<slangasek> until it's done processing all events currently in the queue
<soren> Right.
<slangasek> which in no case should result in a /hang/
<slangasek> what is it you're actually trying to do?
<soren> I'm just trying to understand if (and if so, how) we know that the loopback device is available once we start going through rc2.d/S* scripts.
<njpatel> slangasek: we may have a waaaay saner fix
<soren> ..since that used to be the case (given that networking ran at rcS.d/S40)
<njpatel> slangasek: just testing then will ping lool with patch
<ttx> ..and some server software kinda expects at least loopback to be up when started.
<ttx> for example, rc2.d/S15dnsmasq
<slangasek> soren: we don't; it's racy; file a bug on upstart
<soren> slangasek: You agree that having lo availab in runlevel to is a reasonable expectation?
<soren> What the?
<soren> That did not come out the way I thought I typed it. :)
<slangasek> soren: yes, everything that rcS did for us before should still be guaranteed
<soren> slangasek: You agree that having lo available in runlevel two is a reasonable expectation?
<soren> slangasek: Lovely, thank you.
<soren> ttx: Can you turn this into a bug report yourself? :)
<slangasek> unfortunately, switching /half/ of our init system has introduced a few race conditions
<ttx> soren: last time I filed a bug in upstart it didn't turn out so well :)
<soren> ttx: I woudl quote relevant parts of this IRC discussion. In particular slangasek's last three comments :)
<mterry> ScottK: following up about that report of a no-longer-have-a-syslogger after jaunty-to-karmic?  I never saw a bug go through.  There is an existing Incomplete report for similar issue.  Could your user add details to it or file new one?  bug 440914
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 440914 in rsyslog "Upgrading from Jaunty to Karmic does not install rsyslog" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/440914
<ScottK> mterry: The guy that had the report was gone off IRC before I could get him to report it.
<ScottK> mterry: If I see him again, I'll point him at that bug.
<mterry> ScottK: ah, cool.  np
<sgallagh> Does ubuntu have a graphical tool for configuring directory services (such as LDAP, NSS, etc,) and authentication services (such as Kerberos)?
<slangasek> sgallagh: configuring the services, or selecting which ones to use?
<sgallagh> slangasek: More the former than the latter.
<slangasek> then I don't believe so
<sgallagh> slangasek: What is the other?
<slangasek> sgallagh: pam-auth-update lets you configure which authentication services to use
<sgallagh> I'm trying to figure out who to speak to about getting the SSSDConfig API integrated in ubuntu
<njpatel> davidbarth: lool: slangasek: http://paste.ubuntu.com/302075/ this will fix it properly. We were activating the launcher window for no reason.
<slangasek> though it's not integrated anywhere /from/ the gui, you have to run it from the commandline (or let it be launched during package configuration)
<slangasek> effectively, you shouldn't have to run it at all to configure anything, just install the packages you want
<sgallagh> slangasek: How is one expected to configure LDAP for user information or kerberos for authentication?
<slangasek> sgallagh: using the usual methods for those services
<sgallagh> slangasek: Hacking on a config file, in other words.
<mathiaz> sgallagh: another non-gui package is auth-client-config
<mathiaz> sgallagh: jdstrand wrote that package ^^
<slangasek> sgallagh: erm, you said "configure kerberos for authentication", not "configure your machine to use Kerberos for authentication"
<sgallagh> mathiaz: Where I'm going with this is that the SSSD as of 0.7.0 now has an API for managing our config files, and I was hoping that I could talk to someone about implementing this to make life easier
<slangasek> you don't configure kerberos for authentication by editing config files
<slangasek> and you don't need to edit any config files on your local system in order to point it at Kerberos
<sgallagh> slangasek: what about /etc/pam.conf (or /etc/pam.d/system-auth)
<lool> njpatel: thanks; so that's replacing the previous patch?
<sgallagh> slangasek: and of course /etc/krb5.conf to set up the realm properly...
<slangasek> sgallagh: I just told you about pam-auth-update
<mathiaz> sgallagh: right - I saw that. I'll probably schedule a session at the next UDS to talk about that
<simon-o> ScottK: The IRC log from bug 459164 you attached to the MP, where did that take place?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 459164 in gnoemoe "FTBFS with GCC 4.4" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/459164
<ScottK> simon-o: #ubuntu-motu
<slangasek> sgallagh: run "apt-get install libpam-krb5" and see if this doesn't do everything for you
<sgallagh> slangasek: Where I'm going with this is that SSSD (and its config API) should make it really easy to set this stuff up.
<sgallagh> I'm campaigning, here ;-)
<sgallagh> mathiaz: OK, do you want me to be present to answer questions?
<simon-o> ScottK: Ok, thanks. I'll take a look at it. Next time please ping me, then I can participate in the discussion :)
<mathiaz> sgallagh: present - virtually or physically?
<ScottK> simon-o: I didn't know you were on IRC.  Please ping me on #ubuntu-motu when you have an update.
<mathiaz> sgallagh: anyway - the sessions should streamed online
<sgallagh> mathiaz: WHere are USDs held?
<simon-o> ScottK: Sure, I'll do
<simon-o> thanks again
<sgallagh> err UDSs
<YokoZar> What's Scott James Remnant's IRC nick?  Not on his launchpad/wiki page :(
<mathiaz> sgallagh: in Dallas - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-L
<azeem> Keybuk
<sgallagh> mathiaz: Virtually, then
<mathiaz> sgallagh: anyway there are streamed online
<YokoZar> oh nevermind it is on launchpad I can't see anything
<mathiaz> sgallagh: once the schedule is published I'll let you know if there is a specific session about sssd and its integration with the API
<YokoZar> Anyway Keybuk did you see Mephisto's comment on 447197  (it came seconds before you closed it)
<sgallagh> mathiaz: Thanks
<njpatel> lool: yes, replaces previous patch. Tested by Jamie
<mathiaz> sgallagh: I may have time to poke at 0.7.0 before and look at the new config API.
<sgallagh> mathiaz: We're also aiming to have a 1.0 Release Candidate around Nov. 18th, with a final release of 1.0 occurring sometime in December.
<Keybuk> YokoZar: it wasn't relevant to the procps task
<mathiaz> sgallagh: that sounds like a great timing from our perspective!
<Keybuk> (that I could see
<sgallagh> mathiaz: Well, what I'm getting at is that if there's anything you guys want to see in SSSD 1.0, the window is closing rapidly :)
<YokoZar> Keybuk: is there a problem with sysctl though?  It seems like making a package install script fail due to something that should just be ignored in /etc/sysctl.d is a bad thing
<pitti> dpm: these need to become SRUs
<Keybuk> YokoZar: I don't think there's a problem in sysctl?
<mathiaz> sgallagh: understood.
<pitti> Riddell: cmake> how is that relevant for patching the code?
<YokoZar> Keybuk: so is it supposed to exit status 1 on an unknown key then?
<sgallagh> mathiaz: Nov. 18th is intended to be feature-complete, with only bugfixing after that. We'll see if this is actually achievable when we get there, of course.
<Keybuk> YokoZar: no idea, the manpage doesn't document its exit codes
<liw> have any packages been updated in the archive since the RC image?
<zul> slangasek: ah it looks like a patch got dropped when we updated php
<Keybuk> unknown key could be a security issue, etc. so seems reasonable
<cjwatson> liw: yep
<liw> cjwatson, thanks
<YokoZar> Keybuk: shouldn't it complain at boot rather than package install time?  having wine install break is the first they're being made aware of the bad keys
<Riddell> pitti: the patch edits cmake to stop it compiling the nepomuk code
<Keybuk> YokoZar: well, wine should clearly deal with things in its postinst properly
<Keybuk> that's why i closed out the sysctl task
<pitti> Riddell: ah, I see
<Keybuk> there may be a separate bug to improve the upstart job separately, but it's not related just resultant
<YokoZar> Keybuk: you mean ignore error exit status 1 when calling start procps  ?
<YokoZar> Keybuk: we should at least update /etc/sysctl.d/README to reflect the change from invoke-rc.d to start
<Keybuk> YokoZar: only if exit status 1 *only* means that, etc.
<Keybuk> sure
<superm1> pitti, oh shame.  is that something that can be improved upon?
<pitti> superm1: hm, you'd need to set up a retracer for a particular upstreamish PPA, and check the package origin somehow
<pitti> not trivially, I'm afraid
<pitti> and PPAs don't have ddebs either
<superm1> pitti, well if it's only for apport reported bugs, remember an apport conf has to come in the package to set the project that the bugs get filed to
<pitti> right
<superm1> so debugging symbols aren't stripped from the packages though, so they should be remaining in the deb itself shouldn't they?
<pitti> superm1: you build your PPA packages without stripping?
<pitti> well, in this case you wouldn't even need a retracer?
<superm1> pitti, well I had thought there is something in soyuz that prevents stripping from happening on PPA builds
<superm1> i recall looking at a build log and seeing a reference to it
<cjwatson> if so, where do the symbols go ...
<pitti> superm1: no, I don't think so; that logic is built into dh_strip and upstream build systems (for the CFLAGS="-g -O2" bits)
<pitti> superm1: perhaps you are mixing it up with stripping translations?
<superm1> pitti, well what i was seeing was "dh_strip debug symbol extraction: disabling for PPA build", which I suppose I was mis-assuming as the symbols still end up in the binaries
<pitti> ah; that just means that it won't build .ddebs
<superm1> ah, but the stripping still happens..
<lool> slangasek: New patch from njpatel above was tested successfully by JamieBennett but davidbarth is not confortable with it because it is hard to test
<slangasek> lool: should we stick with the current solution, then?
<lool> slangasek: (I had already pushed to the queue when we discussed it)
<slangasek> zul: what patch was dropped from php?
<zul> slangasek: hold on
<njpatel> lool: slangasek: There are four main things to test: 1. Open a window and click on the desktop, make sure the launcher comes into focus. 2. Open a window and press Ctrl+Alt+D, make sure the launcher focuses 3. Open a window and press the go-home-applet, make sure the launcher comes into focus 4. Add the 'show-desktop' applet, open a window and click on the applet, make sure the launcher comes into focus.
<lool> slangasek: It's pretty much the only thing we care fixing for release; I dont mind either way, but the xsession-errors which Jamie saw with the first patch worried me a bit; I kind of agree with davidbarth's argument about testability though, so if he wants to play safe I understand
<zul> slangasek: 019-z_off_t_as_long.patch
<davidbarth> slangasek: for a fix to integrate /right now/ i'm more comfortable with the one from this morning
<lool> njpatel: That sounds like you have a relatively good idea of the possible code pathes and puts me into more confidence that we can fix it
<lool> s/fix it/test it
<njpatel> lool: Yep, although I'm asking Jamie to also test these. It shouldnt' take longer than a couple of minutes
<superm1> pitti, well ideally during UDS can you try to help work out a solution for such scenarios with myself and some of the people normally doing our bug triaging that will be there?  we'd really like to make these PPAs useful to upstream since they're building tip regularly, and it's looking like this is the missing link then
<davidbarth> slangasek: if you have an upload window for tomorrow morning, i think we can let the new one being tested a bit more (because the 4 code paths need to be exercised)
<slangasek> davidbarth: no, we should get this settled today
<pitti> superm1: I'm happy to explain how the current setup works, and then we can discuss how to extend it to PPAs without much ongoing maintenance cost
<lool> slangasek: How about we test for 45 minutes and report on at least 4 successful tests?
<davidbarth> slangasek: i can have that new one tested properly but will need around 1h
<superm1> pitti, Ok, great thanks :)
<njpatel> davidbarth: lool: (14:50:51) JamieBennett: njpatel: All work for me.
<lool> njpatel: 1
<davidbarth> njpatel: meaning, the 4 code paths
<njpatel> yep
<slangasek> lool, davidbarth: that would work; you're testing locally, and I should accept the package in the queue only once confirmed ok?
<lool> Yup
<davidbarth> slangasek: ok, let's do that
<lool> Back to you at 3:30 UTC
 * mvo_ grumbles - his laptop just shut itself down because of critical temperature 
<soren> On fire, eh?
 * mvo_ looks for smoke
<ccheney> anytime the initrd is regenerated it suggests you reboot?
<ccheney> even for just a usplash update, heh
<mvo_> not quite it seems, but almost ~100Â°C
<ccheney> mvo_: wow thats hot
<ScottK> Perfect for making tea.
<mvo_> tea!
 * mvo_ will do exactly that
<ccheney> mvo_: did the fan die?
<mvo_> ccheney, I don't think so, but I guess I will have to open the case to see if the fan collected too much dust or something
<ccheney> mvo_: hopefully linux didn't decide to just turn the fan off, heh
 * ScottK had one of those bugs in Gutsy.
<ccheney> suspend/resume seems much more buggy in karmic than previous releases at least for my laptop (thinkpad x200)
<ogra> mvo_, the reboot notification comes up for me while u-m is still operating, do you have a bug about that open ?
<ccheney> i went to file a bug but saw large numbers of reports already
<mvo_> ogra, during a partial upgrade?
<zul> slangasek: i have uploaded it to my ppa and ask people for testing
<ogra> mvo_, just when running u-m from my menu
<ogra> some package triggers a reboot request and the window pops up
<mvo_> ogra, could you give me the output of ps afx please?
<slangasek> zul: ok
<ogra> mvo_, not really, that was two days ago (and i was travelling)
<ogra> but i think u-m should suppress the notification until it's done
<mvo_> ogra, hm, it should, however there is a bug that during a partial upgrade that sometimes does not work
<ogra> mvo_, partial is the one where i get the extra popup in u-m ?
<mvo_> ogra, yes
 * ogra thinks he should really run at least one fully english desktop for the proper wording :P
<ogra> yes, then i had a partial upgrade and hit the same bug
<mvo_> ogra, thanks
<kees> asac: hehe you too, eh?
<kees> $ id kees
<kees> uid=501(kees) gid=501(kees) groups=501(kees)
<kees> 501!  :)
<ogra> 501 ? reserved for thpethial users ? :)
<kees> ogra: it's from really old installs.  I probably did it because I use an NFS home directory, and created my "kees" account in 1995 or something on RH 5 (?)
<ogra> heh
<lool> slangasek: krafty teted and passed the tests with no regression
<slangasek> lool: does that mean everyone's satisfied with this solution?
<lool> slangasek: Sorry just one report
<lool> slangasek: Waiting for davidbarth's testing report
<slangasek> ok
<jimpop> hi all.  i have an autoconf question wrt to a some Ubuntu code... is that applicable here?
<jimpop> i want to modify a source pkg so that ./configure sets up Makefile to use a different include path
<jimpop> i realize i can do EXTRA_CFLAGS -I...., but i want to have autoconf support this
<jimpop> additionally, due to kernel header changes, I need to define __KERNEL__ now to gcc.... so that too needs to be added to config.in.h ? or where?
<cjwatson> defining __KERNEL__ in userspace code is a very bad idea, so unless you're writing a kernel module I'd strongly recommend against it - if necessary, copy the definitions you need instead (and maybe ask the kernel guys if they can expose it in future)
<cjwatson> configure.ac can typically just add -I options to CFLAGS
<jimpop> cjwatson, this is a video driver...
<cjwatson> video as in an X driver?
<jimpop> yes
<jimpop> which, to me, is both userspace and module'ar
<cjwatson> I believe that still counts as userspace
<jimpop> cjwatson, k
<cjwatson> X drivers aren't kernel modules. Sometimes there's a separate component that lives in the kernel
<jimpop> cjwatson, that is the case with this (psb) there is a kernel module and a xorg module
<dpm> pitti, (re: the translation fixes needing to be SRU), np, I'll prepare the SRUs, then. Thanks for looking into that.
<lool> slangasek: Ok; we have enough reports now (I tested on davidbarth's netbook, I tested in virtualbox, I tested with krafty on his dell mini 10v, JamieBennett tested and marjo gave a quick smoke test as well)
<slangasek> lool, davidbarth: so I should take this new netbook-launcher fix?
<cjwatson> jimpop: so define __KERNEL__ at the top of some file(s) used only by the kernel module code
<cjwatson> definitely not config.h.in
<jimpop> no -D__KERNEL__  ?
<lool> slangasek: Yes
<lool> slangasek: davidbarth is in phone meetings rest of day apparently
<slangasek> lool: ok; accepted
<lool> Thanks
<lool> njpatel: ^ it's in
<njpatel> lool: Awesome!
<lool> We should retest the resulting binaries quickly when they popup
<cjwatson> jimpop: you can do that if you like, although it usually belongs in the Makefile.am or whatever not in autoconf bits. Seems like more hassle to me than putting it in a .h or .c file, but up to you
<lool> mvo_: Are you happy with the emacsen-common fix?  Do you have a way to test the upgrade scenario which lead to the bug?
<jimpop> cjwatson, ok, i'll give it a go using  a #define, and if not then investigate Makefile.am.  Thanks!
<mvo_> lool, I though I replied to that, but maybe it got eaten by a disconnect. I'm happy with the fix but I have no way to reproduce it (other than the bugreport I got)
<davidbarth> slangasek: test reports positive, i recommend taking it (if not already the case ;)
<slangasek> davidbarth: right, done already - thanks. :)
<cjwatson> jimpop: (if there isn't a Makefile.am, try Makefile.in or Makefile in turn; this varies)
<lool> mvo_: Ok; I didn't get the reply; thanks
<jimpop> cjwatson, i see that. ;-)
<lool> mvo_: Hmm actually I did, sorry
<lool> 13:03 < mvo> lool: the diff looks good, I don't ahve a way to reproduce the  issue myself, but I think the fix is good
<mvo_> lool, no problem :)
 * lool sucks
<mvo_> lool, thanks for the super-quick fix
<dmart> Does anyone know where I can get a vmlinux image for use with oprofile?
<dmart> Specifically, I'm trying to do profiling on karmic armel
<ccheney> hmm whatever was done to the default Ubuntu 9.10 theme now vmware can't even leave checkboxes checked they go away immediately
<lool> dmart: I did read someone did it a while back in jaunty on an imx51 kernel
<lool> dmart: Back then one had still to patch this support in, but perhaps the upstream kernel support for it is good enough now; no idea
<lool> dmart: In fact I have some notes that I could perhaps pass you around if you're really interested -- I'd have to check whether I can release the info
<LaserJock> slangasek: do you have any respins of Edubuntu planned at this point?
<slangasek> LaserJock: it's in my queue currently
<LaserJock> slangasek: ok, great, thanks
<JontheEchidna> pitti: ping
<zooko> Folks: I have a lead on what might be a regression between g++-4.4.1-3ubuntu3 and g++-4.4.1-4ubuntu8.
<zooko> I'm still narrowing it down and reproducing it, but I wondered if someone else wanted to try this easy experiment:
<zooko> rebuild libcrypto++8.
<zooko> On my machine, that fails with the current karmic g++ (4.4.1-4ubuntu8).
<kees> zooko: I'm starting a local build now.
<zooko> kees: great.
<zooko> What I observe is that the self-test hangs on the SHA validation.
<zooko> Also I get segfaults when I link to the resulting lib from pycryptopp.
<zooko> You could also try rebuilding python-pycryptopp and runnings its self-tests if you want.
<kees> zooko: yup, hangs after:
<kees> passed   34aa973cd4c4daa4f61eeb2bdbad27316534016f   "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa" repeated 15625 times
<zooko> kees: so, what I'm doing right now is trying to set up a pbuilder chroot with g++ 4.4.1-3ubuntu3.
<zooko> Because that's the version of g++ that was used to build the version of libcrypto++8 that is currently in karmic.
<blackxored> where I can find someone to file an FFE for azureus-4.2.0.8-3 ??
<zooko> I'm not expert at this pbuilder stuff, though, so it is taking me a while to get g++-4.4.1-3ubuntu3 and all its many dependencies installed into my chroot.
<zooko> http://codepad.org/3whfme67
<zooko> ^-- my failure to install cpp in my pbuilder chroot.
<zooko> ^-- mysteriously it says it requires "libcloog-ppl0 (>= 0.15~git20081008)", which is a non-existent package that it just made up in order to tease me.
<kees> cloog-ppl | 0.15.7-1                  | karmic/main
<cjwatson> zooko: libcloog-ppl0 exists fine here
<ScottK> blackxored: Come talk to me in #ubuntu-motu about why we want it.
<blackxored> ScottK, thanks
<zooko> cjwatson: thanks.  must have beenspelling it wrong
<zooko> cjwatson, kees: do you know any technique for installing "the version of cloog that matches g++-4.4.1-3ubuntu3" ?
<zooko> I guess I can manually inspect publication history and download and dpkg -i and then recurse for all deps, but that will take a while.
<cjwatson> can't apt-get do it for you?
<cjwatson> oh, you're using an older version
<cjwatson> well, the current version of libcloog-ppl0 in the archive satisfies that dependency
<cjwatson> you can 'apt-get -f install' and it should try to fix the current system ...
<zooko> cjwatson: thanks.
<zooko> I'll try that.
<zooko> Whoops it upgraded my g++ to 4.4.1-4ubuntu8.
<cjwatson> if you said 'apt-get -f install' without further arguments, that must mean that it couldn't satisfy the dependencies given what's in the archive
<cjwatson> so my approach would be to find out which dependency caused g++ to be upgraded, download and install an older version of that by hand, and iterate
<zooko> Phewf, how do I do that first step?
<zooko> Figuring out which dep caused g++ to be upgraded?
<cjwatson> there are few enough dependencies that I'd just walk them by hand
<cjwatson> BTW you do know that g++ is just a dependency package don't you? g++-4.4 is the actual substantive package name
<zooko> Sigh.  Let me back up a step.  We know that the current g++-4.4 (4.4.1-4ubuntu8) miscompiles libcrypto++8.
<zooko> I guess it *must* be the case that g++-4.4 4.4.1-3ubuntu3 must have compiled it correctly, or at least well enough that libcrypto++8 passed its own self-test and got uploaded into karmic.
<zooko> Which it does not do with the current g++.
<zooko> So all this above was me attempting to reproduce the build with the older, working g++,
<zooko> hopefully in order to further isolate the problem.
<zooko> But, maybe that's not helpful.  What can I do to help?  I'm concerned about this regression in g++ in karmic, because it breaks one of my libraries:
<zooko> http://allmydata.org/buildbot-pycryptopp/waterfall
<zooko> See the red one?
<zooko> (Not the failed upload, the "failed test".)
<zooko> That shows that my application, when built on Karmic, gets segfaults.
<zooko> That also means it might have an exploitable bug, for all I know -- I haven't understood it yet.
<zooko> We're pretty sure that this is due to the karmic g++ miscompiling Crypto++.
<zooko> Because kees reproduced the problem by attempting to rebuild libcrypto++8  with the current g++ and it fails for him/her, too.
<zooko> I assume that a generates-wrong-code bug in g++ might be of concern to ubuntu devs for other reasons, too.
<zooko> By the way, that buildbot runs it under valgrind too if that helps: http://allmydata.org/buildbot-pycryptopp/builders/linux-amd64-ubuntu-karmic-yukyuk/builds/11/steps/test/logs/valgrind
<pitti> JontheEchidna: hi
<JontheEchidna> pitti: Hi there! We were wondering if it would be possible to get a manual langpack upload to fix bug 460984
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460984 in language-pack-kde-nl "KMail Dutch: translator's e-mail in application" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460984
<JontheEchidna> (https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/kdepim/+pots/kmail/nl/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=gmail)
<zooko> Okay, while awaiting an Ubuntu dev to tell me how I can help with this (apparent) generates-wrong-code g++ regression
<zooko> I'll try reproducing the build with g++ 4.4.1-3ubuntu3.
<kees> pitti: do you happen to know what triggers the notifier for installing updates?
<zooko> Okay I've installed g++ 4.4.1-3ubuntu3 in my pbuilder chroot.
<pitti> kees: hm, not sure; inotify watch on /var/lib/apt/ perhaps? mvo would know
<zooko> Ah, but when I exit that pbuilder --login and relogin it has reverted to its previous state.
<zooko> How do I save the state of my pbuilder chroot after I've changed it?
<pitti> JontheEchidna: a manual upload will be mercilessly overwritten by the next daily PPA/-proposed upload, though
<ScottK> zooko: Yes.  pbuilder --login --save-after-login
<zooko> Thanks!
<JontheEchidna> pitti: but since the fix is already committed, wouldn't it be included in the next PPA/-proposed upload?
<pitti> JontheEchidna: IMHO it's least intrusive to first fix it in Rosetta, and then put the updated .po into the update langpack, to avoid two uploads
<pitti> JontheEchidna: right, it would
<JontheEchidna> so what are our options at this point?
<JontheEchidna> as it stands I'm pretty sure the correct string is now in Rosetta, correct me if I'm wrong
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: At this point it might also be in the way of the CD/DVD build process to update it.
<JontheEchidna> meh
<dpm> JontheEchidna, also, related to that bug, have you found out what caused it? Looking at who did the translation, it seems he cannot have done it through Launchpad, as he doesn't seem to use it.
<dpm> https://edge.launchpad.net/~f-de-kruijf-gmail
<JontheEchidna> honestly I have no clue. It seemed a bit weird that it showed up as "packaged"
<dpm> I'm just wondering if the rest of the Dutch translation might have problems
<zooko> Folks: how can I figure out what package(s) are requiring newer versions of g++ to be installed?
<JontheEchidna> dpm: the translator does appear to be from upstream. Maybe an import mishap?
<cjwatson> apt-get -o Debug::pkgProblemResolver=true may help
<dpm> JontheEchidna, that's what I'm looking at now, downloading kde-l10n-nl
<cjwatson> in a verbose kind of way
<zooko> Ah I think I found it.
<zooko> cjwatson: thanks
<cjwatson> alternatively, get the older g++-4.4 (NOT g++) into an apt repository (apt-ftparchive), point sources.list at it temporarily, apt-get install it, and see what problems it reports
<pitti> JontheEchidna: as I said, we could do a manual upload of language-pack-kde-nl, put that single po file into it, and upload to -proposed, so that it'll be fixed right after install
<cjwatson> i.e. "what would go wrong if I tried to downgrade this"
<JontheEchidna> pitti: ah, ok. just a bit confused there for a moment :)
<pitti> JontheEchidna: we can't get it into final any more, sorry (images already building)
 * JontheEchidna nods
<sabdfl> evand: the slideshow on install is very cool
<evand> sabdfl: thanks!  Quite a few people made that happen, most notably Picklesworth.
<sabdfl> please pass on the compliment then
<sabdfl> very cool indeed
<evand> will do
<sabdfl> evand: what's the "skip" button do when i get to configuring apt?
<cjwatson> that's a slow download, and sometimes it sticks for people, so it's basically the equivalent of ctrl-c-ing apt-get update; you'll just get what's on the cd
<dpm> JontheEchidna, it seems that the imported upstream PO file had the error (from kde-l10n-nl-4.3.2/messages/kdepim/kmail.po) -> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/d3fa327cd
<JontheEchidna> I see
<sabdfl> i see, thanks cjwatson
<davmor2> sabdfl: Same applies to Xubuntu it used to go online to get the lang packs so you could skip that,  mind you that used to take ages
<sabdfl> we could be clearer about that
<sabdfl> "loking for online updates... [skip]"
<dpm> JontheEchidna, and this seems to confirm it -> http://websvn.kde.org/tags/KDE/4.3.2/kde-l10n/nl/messages/kdepim/kmail.po?revision=HEAD&view=markup
<cjwatson> yeah, I tend to agree - could you file a bug about that?
<dpm> (first string)
<sabdfl> will do
<cjwatson> thanks
<zooko> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/461303
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461303 in ubuntu "generates-bad-code regression" [Undecided,New]
<zooko> Okay, so I'm still hoping one of the grown-ups around here will take over and tell me how to further diagnose this and/or fix it for Karmic.
<zooko> But in the meanwhile, I'm going to start bisecting the g++ versions and figure out exactly what change went from passing to failing.
<ScottK> zooko: No chance of it getting fixed before release for Karmic, but it can go into a post-release update.
 * zooko nods.
<ScottK> I'd call it important, so please keep going.
<zooko> Any advice for me?
<zooko> Okay. :-)
<ScottK> No, sorry, up to my eyeballs in other pre-release stuff.
<sabdfl> evand: so, with the update download in place, does that mean we can close https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/346682 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 346682 in ubiquity "when installing and network is available to ask user if they want to install updates at that time" [Wishlist,Won't fix]
<sabdfl> and cjwatson, do you think https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/55505 is elegantly doable?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 55505 in ubiquity "auto-update ubiquity if a newer version is available from internet" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<cjwatson> sabdfl: grave concerns about the feasibility of 55505, even finding out whether an update is available could easily take a very noticeable period of time; it would have to be a background thread that times out after the installer has got a certain amount through, and I expect a lot of people blast through the early stages of the installer pretty quickly
<cjwatson> (there's no point in 55505 unless it's done right at the start, really)
<cjwatson> that said, having an explicit "Check for updates" button would be elegantly doable, I think
<zooko> Oh-ho.
<zooko> pbuilder with g++-4.4 4.4.1-3ubuntu3 also hangs in the SHA validation test.
<zooko> kees: can you reproduce that?
<mvo> kees: update-notifier watches some dirs (like apt lists dir, /var/lib/update-notifier/dpkg-run-stamp etc) - why ?
<kees> zooko: I use sbuild.
<kees> mvo: can you check in with bdmurray, he's not seeing the update notifier on current karmic.
<sabdfl> cjwatson: we would have to bypass normal package db update, and just do a special-url-check
<sabdfl> is it possible to tell apt to download a package that it doesn't know about?
<mvo> kees: could well be  that he does not sees it because the design team decided to now show the notification anymore but instead auto-open only every 7 days
<cjwatson> sabdfl: if it were an explicit check, I think that'd be a lot more feasible, much less hacky, and with many fewer difficult corner cases
<mvo> kees: that confused/is confusing a lot of people
<cjwatson> sabdfl: I'd be happy to try to resurrect the sample code mvo did for that ages ago to that end for lucid
<sabdfl> cjwatson: is it worth putting on the UDS discussion list, or is Ubiquity already wedged for Lucid?
<evand> sabdfl: we deferred 346682 (https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-install-updates-when-installing)
<kees> mvo: oh, right, the 7 day delay.  bdmurray: ping
<sabdfl> i'm trying to get a feel for how much you have queued up and planned for it
<cjwatson> sabdfl: I'll be syncing up with Robbie on this tomorrow
<sabdfl> evand: so, it does a package update, but not the update-install bit?
<mvo> bdmurray, kees: given how much confusion it causes i think we should at least re-discuss it again at uds
<sabdfl> ok, thanks cjwatson, if you could consider it for UDS that would be great, as I do think there's value to us i having the ability to correct installer issues without a full point release for an LTS
<zooko> kees, cjwatson: I updated this bug report to indicate that libcrypto++8 when built with g++ 4.4.1-3ubuntu3 fails its self-tests (by hanging indefinitely with high CPU load) and to ask:
<cjwatson> sabdfl: in the meantime, I've put it in my file of "things to consider for UDS" notes
<zooko> So, how did libcrypto++8 as built by g++ 4.4.1-3ubuntu3 pass its self tests? Or *did* it pass its self-tests before it went into Karmic?
<sabdfl> ok thanks
<kees> zooko: so, it's not a compiler regression?
<kees> zooko: check in https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libcrypto++/5.6.0-3/+build/1249032/+files/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-i386.libcrypto++_5.6.0-3_FULLYBUILT.txt.gz
<kees> zooko: (from https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libcrypto++/5.6.0-3/+build/1249032)
 * cjwatson grins at mvo's old branch for this
<cjwatson> +        open(MAGIC_MARKER,"w").write("1")
<mvo> heh :)
 * mvo played nethack at that time
<cjwatson> I did wonder :)
<zooko> kees: look!  It passes the SHA validation test!  Wah.
<zooko> kees: does the fact that you use sbuild make it easy or hard for you to reproduce the experiment of building with g++ 4.4.1-3ubuntu3?
<cjwatson> zooko: did you also downgrade gcc-4.4, and the rest of the compiler suite?
<cjwatson> zooko: I'm not sure that just downgrading g++-4.4 alone will be sufficient
<zooko> cjwatson: so the current situation is -4ubuntu8 fails for me and for keys, -3ubuntu3 fails for me, but apparently -3ubuntu3 worked in that buildlog that kees just posted.
<zooko> cjwatson: yes.
<cjwatson> also worth looking at binutils
 * zooko looks at binutils.
<dpm> JontheEchidna, I've commented on the bug. pitti, as is there anything else to be done to move your suggested fix forward, i.e. open a separate bug, subscribe you on the original bug?
<dpm> pitti, (re: kmail)
<evand> sabdfl: it currently installs language support, but it doesn't do an apt-get update; apt-get --download-only upgrade
<mvo> i
<pitti> dpm: someone needs to prepare the package, check that it really works, and upload it to -proposed
<pitti> that's pretty much it
<zooko> How do I view tghe full history of builds and uploads of packages again?
<doko_> cjwatson: any specific arch?
<pitti> dpm: i. e. take a new po, put it into data/, build/test/upload
<cjwatson> doko_: -> zooko
<zooko> To figure out what version of binutils was used to build libcrypto++8 5.6.0-3
<doko_> zooko: the build logs should include gcc and binutils versions
<dpm> JontheEchidna, do you think you or someone from Kubuntu could do that ^?
<JontheEchidna> That could be arranged, yes
<cjwatson> zooko: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libcrypto++ (that's indexed by source package name), "See full publishing history", pick version, click on appropriate architecture in builds column, follow "buildlog" link
<zooko> doko: thanks
<zooko> cjwatson: thanks
<kees> zooko: hard to reproduce with sbuild (also, busy with other stuff at the moment)
<zooko> kees: okay thanks!
 * ccheney hates the kernel, heavy disk io still brings desktops down to being completely unusable
<ccheney> every few seconds all my windows grey out for a while then start working again for a short time, cycle indefinite
<Tm_T> ccheney: hmm, different scheduler helps or not?
<ccheney> Tm_T: maybe, i hear the new con scheduler is supposed to help but i don't think that is in the karmic kernel (or is it?)
<jdong> ccheney: that's not an IO scheduler :)
<jdong> ccheney: deadline will prevent the greyout grinding
<ccheney> jdong: ah, well then yea i need a useful io scheduler :)
<jdong> but will cause more disk thrashing
<jdong> ccheney: if ext3/4, mounting with data=writeback helps too
<ccheney> jdong: ok
<jdong> though it MAY lead to stale zombie data after a crash.
<ccheney> heh
<ccheney> so no real solutions to fixing it properly yet i suppose? :)
<jdong> if you want to cast it in such dim light, sure! :)
<ccheney> eg some sort of roundrobin disk io thing
<jdong> that's what CFS is supposed to be.
<jdong> it's just that your robin isn't as important as the non-gray robins ;-)
<ccheney> the slices must be too large, heh
<ccheney> there is some way to lower io priority for a particular process too right?
<jdong> ccheney: I think the problem is when the previous slice triggers an expensive disk operation that must finish.
<jdong> ccheney: i.e. hitting a journal barrier that forces 32MB of disk cache to be flushed before any further operations
<ccheney> oh
<jdong> ccheney: if you notice, it's usually *writes* that cause death
<jdong> ccheney: there's also limitations such that fsync of a single file may cause a sync of the entire disk to take place.
<mathiaz> cr3: checkbox 0.8.5 uploaded to karmic
<mathiaz> cr3: can you mark the merge request as approved? https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~cr3/ubuntu/karmic/checkbox/0.8.5/+merge/13965
<ccheney> grr iwlagn decided to eat 100% cpu on my box :-\
<jdong> yay!
<jdong> the last time I flipped the hw rfkill switch on my iwl3945 I had a similar experience
<jdong> and lost the 4 virtualized servers too. whoops!
<ccheney> i was just using my system as normal when it decided to do it to me
<ccheney> i'm in the process of compressing a vm for reuse later and its now heating up my system a lot
 * ccheney wouldn't be surprised if he saw the 100C like mvo after this crap
<ccheney> i'm not sure how to get it to show me the temperature though
<ccheney> oh i found it, 88C thats pretty bad
<jdong> eep :)
<ScottK> I've had to run my laptop sitting on a bag of ice before.
<ScottK> You can't leave it on indefinitely though because of condensation.
<hyperair> didn't condensation form?
<hyperair> ahah
<zooko> I want a hermetically sealed computer.
<ScottK> You take it off and then the heat causes it to evaporate
<hyperair> ccheney: the newer kernels don't get the iwlagn-100% issue.
<hyperair> at least, not the one i'm running
<hyperair> which is .32
<hyperair> and my computer auto-poweroffs at somewhere around 80
<ccheney> hyperair: newer than 2.6.31-14.48 ?
<jdong> can of dust-off
<jdong> spray it upside down
<hyperair> ccheney: 2.6.32-rc5.
<jdong> I've had success cooling dangerously overheated motors that way too
<ccheney> hyperair: ah well i'm getting 100% iwlagn on the version i mentioned above
<hyperair> ccheney: i compile my own kernels, since i need the PHC patch or my notebook will blow up when i compile things.
<jdong> it sprays on solidified-subliming propellant which is much colder than ice
<ccheney> crap its up to 89C now
<hyperair> ccheney: rmmod iwlagn
<jdong> hyperair: watch that panic.
<hyperair> jdong: what what panic?
<jdong> hyperair: rmmodding a misbehaving module
<jdong> :)
<hyperair> jdong: no, i've done it before.
<hyperair> it works very well
<hyperair> rmmod iwlagn and all associated modules..
<ccheney> hmm that seems to magically have worked, but i am surprised since it was giving lots of backtraces
<hyperair> iwlagn, iwlcore, {mac,cfg}80211
<jdong> I'm surprised too
<hyperair> yeah i was surprised too =\
<ccheney> hyperair: thanks
<jdong> typically when a ko is misbehaving, rmmodding it is a suicide attempt :)
<hyperair> but the solution worked flawlessly every time
<ccheney> already down to 80C :)
<jdong> nice
<jdong> good to know, hyperair
<hyperair> jdong: seriously? i haven't seen a rmmod panic me =\
<jdong> hyperair: wow
<jdong> you are one lucky guy!
<ccheney> hyperair: i have but i don't have problems often enough to have had it happen in a few years
<ccheney> i just remember it crashing often years ago so didn't even try
<hyperair> jdong: heh call me inexperienced ;-)
 * hyperair gets tonnes of backtraces in dmesg
<hyperair> acpi stuff and the like
<hyperair> heh
<hyperair> but i go on hibernating/resuming (using tuxonice) without any issue =p
 * jdong has an amusing amount of apparmor chatter in dmesg
<jdong> and should probably invest in an auditd.
<hyperair> auditd eh
<hyperair> i should look into that sometime
 * ajmitch is glad it's just a website that's causing 100% CPU usage, and not a kernel module
<hyperair>  lol
 * hyperair has a laggy bluetooth mouse
<hyperair> under load anyway
<ajmitch> I should have tested wireless on my laptop before kernel freeze, since it had problems with hard lockups in jaunty
<hyperair> meh
<hyperair> why didn't you?
<ajmitch> because I never use it
<hyperair> .__.
<ajmitch> it's yet another intel driver :)
<hyperair> lol
<hyperair> for some reason, eventhough we always go around advocating intel graphics and intel wifi, it ends up backfiring on us =.=
<ajmitch> yes, I just checked & it's the iwlagn driver ccheney was talking about
<hyperair> hah
<hyperair> i remember intrepid having issues
<hyperair> but it was fixed
 * hyperair thinks intrepid was the most rock solid release ever
<jdstrand> ttx, soren: does bug #460271 factor into euca in any way? I can fix this and upload today or do an SRU along with bug #453335 after the kernel gets updated
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460271 in libvirt "virt-aa-helper fails when serial or console type is 'tcp'" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460271
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 453335 in libvirt "apparmor complains about write access to a readonly file" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/453335
<jdstrand> ttx, soren: perhaps a better question is-- do you want me to upload a fix asap, or is an SRU ok?
<ttx> jdstrand: at this point I'd say SRU
<jdstrand> ttx: that is what I was thinking. it's a regression but not a common use case afaict
<jdstrand> ttx: though definitely SRU worthy
<ttx> jdstrand: you can target to 9.10-updates so that we track it
<ScottK> ttx: karmic-proposed is open for uploads now.
<ttx> ScottK: even better :)
<jdstrand> ttx: already done
<ScottK> We've already got one in the queue.
<zooko> Isolated the regression in binutils https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/461303
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461303 in gcc-4.4 "generates-bad-code regression" [Undecided,New]
<jonathan__> anyone aware of a way around the password prompt I get every time I startup and click my RAID array?
<ScottK> jonathan__: This isn't a support channel.  #ubuntu or #ubuntu+1 for support
<ScottK> doko_: ^^^
<ScottK> (the binutils)
<kees> zooko: if you have the .dsc files for 2.19.91.20091006-0ubuntu1 and 2.19.91.20091014-0ubuntu1 you can use "debdiff" to see the differences in the code
<kees> (and diff.gz and orig.tar.gz)
<zooko> kees: thx
<zooko> holding 9 day old baby atm
<kees> woo! early computer induction.  :)
<jdstrand> excellent getting the baby to learn debian packaging at such a young age
<cjwatson> zooko: I put a link to the diff in the bug
<cjwatson> LP automatically generates diffs between successive versions of packages
<zooko> that's a big diff
<zooko> i'm out of my depth looking at this diff
<zooko> examined the diff with minimal comprehension and came up wit three possibly relevant patches:
<zooko> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/461303
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461303 in binutils "generates-bad-code regression" [Undecided,New]
<kees> zooko: if you want to isolate it further, you can build current binutils with each of those chunks reverted to see which causes it.
<kees> zooko: also, it'd be cool if a more minimal test-case could be found besides "build libcrypto++"  :)
<kees> zooko: however, this is not an area I'm familiar with.  doko may know more, but he's asleep
<zooko> i could work on that smaller test case.
<zooko> after a nap...
<kees> zooko: does it hang on i386 too?
<ion> keybuk: It seems the âwaiting for mountsâ notification has disappeared.
<zooko> kees: no idea
<zooko> I know that there is different ASM in Crypto++ for x86 vs amd64.
<simon-o> Hi, could anybody take a look at bug 414057 and tell me what to do next? I guess it's already too late for karmic...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 414057 in graphviz "FTBFS when tcl8.4 is installed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/414057
<cyphermox> simon-o, maybe i'm wrong but i do not think there is anything more you need to do, since ubuntu-main-sponsors is subscribed; other than bug someone to sponsor the fix :)
<TheMuso> Its probably too late for karmic final, it will have to be an SRU I'd say.
<doko_> zooko, kees: I'm back, knowing the exact chunk would be nice. to speed up the build, use DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS="nostat nomult nogold parallel=4" ...
<simon-o> cyphermox, TheMuso: ok, thanks. I don't know if it's "worth" an SRU because it build fine on the "official" build machines
<cyphermox> simon-o, i was about to point that out
<simon-o> the problem is, when people try to build it with debuild
<simon-o> cyphermox: I'll just try it again with lucid, because I think this should be fixed somehow
<zooko> doko: I just now was asked to help my 5 year old carve a pumpkin.
<TheMuso> But if its built fine on the build machines, why would they want to rebuild it? Sure it needs fixing, but for the final release of karmic, the latest package revision is available, which is good enough.
<simon-o> TheMuso: That's exactly what I thought
<cyphermox> simon-o, pbuilder / sbuild shouldn't complain if someone tries to rebuild graphviz
<simon-o> cyphermox: no they don't. sorry if I was unclear here. This is just for people like the one who reported the bug who do a apt-get source and then try it with debuild. If you have tcl8.4 this will fail, which is a bad experience.
<simon-o> pbuilder and sbuilder are fine
<TheMuso> Straight out debuild is likely not to work purely because the user doesn't have the build dependencies installed.
<simon-o> TheMuso: ok, then the do a apt-get build-deps first ;)
<TheMuso> Yes I know.
<cyphermox> simon-o, it's a nice fix though
<cyphermox> simon-o, i saw you made fixes to a couple of FTBFS bugs today, it was very interesting to look at it helps me understand this stuff :)
<simon-o> cyphermox: thanks. Yes I did fix some FTBFS today, but there are many more open :(
<cyphermox> simon-o, I'm not the best at C, but perhaps I can help -- where do you get your list?
<simon-o> cyphermox: http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909-karmic.html but this list is fairy old
<simon-o> Stefan Potyra sent out a list to ubuntu-devel explaining some of the failures
<simon-o> cyphermox: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-October/000626.html
<simon-o> cyphermox: If you get stuck, just ping me here on IRC or vial Email (http://launchpad.net/~simono)
<cyphermox> simon-o, sure.
<soren> kees: Err.. https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/460906   I'm usually pretty imaginative, but I'm completely at a loss with this one.. I cannot come up with a single use case where I'd want the snapshot linked from /dev/disk/by-uuid/. :) what gives?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460906 in lvm2 "disk/by-uuid/foo symlink points to snapshot rather than the origin" [Undecided,Won't fix]
<spstarr> erm, is grub2 broken ?
<spstarr> i put a custom kernel, and now it says 'could not read file' press any key to continue
<spstarr> yet the vmlinuz and initramfs are fine?
<spstarr> hmm
<spstarr> 'mountall' changed again
<kees> soren: there is only one origin, but multiple snapshots possible.  therefore, the uuid should always point to the "real" partition.
<soren> kees: Exactly!
<soren> kees: but it doesn't, and Scott says that's the way you want it.
<soren> kees: the symlink point to *the snapshot*.
<kees> oh, er
<kees> well, I just argued your point, then.  ;)
<kees> let me think...
<kees> soren: ^^
<soren> kees: I can think of at least one good reason why it should point to the origin, at least. Some of us use UUID based mounting for everything, including lv's. If I make a snapshot of, say, /var and reboot, I'm sure I will be a quite unhappy camper with a read-only /var. I've never hit this, because my snapshots are usually quite short-lived (the time it takes to make a backup).
<kees> you can mount snapshot origins while they have snapshots open, I thought?
<kees> (yes, you can)
<soren> Sure.
<soren> kees: I'm not sure where you're going with that, though?
<kees> soren: what did you mean by the "read-only" bit?
<soren> kees: snapshots are read-only.
<kees> no they're not.
<soren> kees: If my fstab references the uuid, I will mount the snapshot of /var, instead of the origin.
<soren> They're not? Hmm... I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse, really :)
<soren> Oh, right.
<soren> Of course they're not.
 * soren .oO{ sbuild }
<kees> :P
<kees> so, opposing logic would be "snapshots are more interesting than origins" so they should get the UUID.
<soren> kees: Anyhow, if I create a snapshot for some reason, I still want my the origin mounted if I reboot.
<kees> but I need to dig up my reason for this...
<soren> Right. And I've had a hard time...
<soren> right, exactly.
<soren> kees: Either way, can you update that bug, please?
<kees> soren: I did, yes.
<wild_oscar1> hey slangasek, there?
<soren> kees: Apparantly, you're authoritative, but if my vote counts at all, I'd like for the symlink to point to the origin.
<wild_oscar1> I tried editing /etc/init/mountall.conf again, but it gives me the "unknown stanza" on the line that says "pre-exec script"
<kees> soren: so, I introduced the links due to bug 117225, which I'm re-reading now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 117225 in devmapper "LVM snapshotting missing symlinks" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/117225
<cjwatson> well, 'pre-exec script' *should* be unknown, that's an error
<cjwatson> perhaps that was meant to be pre-start or pre-stop?
<wild_oscar1> cjwatson: I don't know
<wild_oscar1> I was being guided by slangasek
<wild_oscar1> regarding this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nfs-utils/+bug/455045
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455045 in nfs-utils "nfs-kernel-server doesn't start automatically at startup" [Undecided,New]
<wild_oscar1> he suggested attaching the /var/log/syslog
<wild_oscar1> after editing mountall.conf with
 * soren calls it a day (again)
<wild_oscar1> pre-exec script initctl log-priority debug end script
<wild_oscar1> (3 lines)
<cjwatson> wild_oscar1: I guess some of that was in a private conversation, not in the bug
<slacker_nl> ion: you there, think we spoke a couple of days ago about usplash?
<cjwatson> wild_oscar1: but I think that's almost certainly a typo for 'pre-start script'
<wild_oscar1> cjwatson: yes, here on irc
<cjwatson> (or possibly for 'pre-start exec initctl log-priority debug' on a single line; either would work)
<ion> slacker_nl: Yeah
<slacker_nl> ion: i still get the messages
<kees> soren: ah-ha, my original bug was about /dev/mapper/* entries, not by-uuid symlinks.
<slacker_nl> only two, but still see them
<ion> slacker_nl: They should disappear when the mount is successful. Do they not?
<wild_oscar1> cjwatson: I shall try with pre-start
<slacker_nl> ion: i don't see them in the splash, but I do see them before that
<slacker_nl> ion: but not as many as before
<wild_oscar1> cjwatson: does it influence where the line is put in the file?
<wild_oscar1> ie, in the beggining, in the end
<cjwatson> no
<cjwatson> well, don't put it in the middle of a script stanza :)
<cjwatson> I'd put it before the line with just 'script' on it
<slangasek> cjwatson: <smack> right, sigh
<ion> slacker_nl: What do you mean by âbefore thatâ?
<slacker_nl> ion: before the splash (the kubuntu logo) I get the messages
<wild_oscar1> cjwatson: thanks, will try 'pre-start exec initctl log-priority debug' in the end of the file
<slacker_nl> ion: i'll make some pictures of it tomorrow - going to bed now
<wild_oscar1> well, I do have the syslog attached to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nfs-utils/+bug/455045
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455045 in nfs-utils "nfs-kernel-server doesn't start automatically at startup" [Undecided,New]
<wild_oscar1> if someone has any clue why installing nfs-kernel-server breaks a lot of init scripts (dovecot, postfix don't startup, nor is portmap started)
#ubuntu-devel 2009-10-27
<zooko> Hooray Python 2.6.4 is out. https://mail.google.com/mail/?shva=1#inbox/124930ebf2a4eb61
<zooko> oops, not a good link
<JanC> python.org will be good enough I suppose  ;)
<ScottK> Yeah, just don't link python.com by mistake.
<JanC> ScottK: considering that I use that site several times a week, not much chance for such mistakes from me  ;-)
<JanC> and python.com seems to be about "other snakes"
<JanC> (and NSFW)
<JanC> well, depending on your job etc.
<zooko> Hm, on second thought I don't see how to generate a smaller test case than "rebuild libcrypto++8".
<zooko> I would assume that the problem is between the amd64 asm in Crypto++ and the recent patches to gas, but that's just a guess on my part.
<zooko> I guess I should do what doko suggested and try reverting one or a few of the hunks in binutils, rebuild binutils, then try the "rebuild libcrypto++8" test?
<zooko> Sheesh, that's a lot of tedious effort.  I wish there were a robot that would do that for me.
<zooko> It took me most of today to manually bisect and identify which binutils update introduced the problem.
<ScottK> zooko: But imagine how great it's going to feel when you nail it.
<ScottK> I had one of these a couple of weeks ago where I ended up having to build kdelibs one svn committ at a time.
<bryce_> "Installing new version of config file /etc/init/gdm.conf ..."
<bryce_> is /etc/gdm/gdm.conf no longer used?  Doesn't seem to appear on my test system anymore.
<cjwatson> bryce_: /etc/init/gdm.conf is an upstart job, not gdm configuration
<cjwatson> I don't think /etc/gdm/gdm.conf is used any more, though, no
<cjwatson> there's custom.conf for a few things
<bryce_> cjwatson, ok, guess this is something that changed while I was on leave.  Is it known that bulletproof-x no longer kicks in when there is a bad xorg.conf?
<bryce_> cjwatson, (do we care about this use case anymore?)
<cjwatson> that I don't know
<cjwatson> though sounds potentially accidental
<bryce_> problem can be reproduced by setting Driver "foo" in xorg.conf.
<bryce_> (beware; only do it if you hate your computer)
<bryce_> it seems gdm tries to start X 5 times, but fails and then exits
<bryce_> upstart sees gdm has exited and restarts it
<bryce_> on my system this goes on for a while and then the console locks up.  ssh over ethernet still works
<bryce_> we no longer ship an xorg.conf either, so maybe this is not an important use case, but people might have an xorg.conf from an upgrade or something
<bryce_> aha, this is bug #441638
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 441638 in gdm "gdm main process keeps dying and respawning on reboot after karmic beta install" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/441638
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> Good morning
<slangasek> superm1: you know this myththemes upload happened well after the deadline for the start of image mastering, right? :)
<slangasek> superm1: it happens that we're doing a respin shortly for some ubiquity bugs - so there's a window where I can include this... how well tested is it?
<slangasek> superm1: also, unversioned Replaces against an existing opens the door to future problems, things that should have been file conflicts being silently swept under the rug by dpkg
<ttx> soren: would you consider bug 461725 a feature or a bug ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461725 in upstart "rc-sysinit job might start before loopback is up" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461725
<ttx> soren: slangasek already said he considers differences with what rcS provided to be a regression
<soren> ttx: I think slangasek made the case very well yesterday, saying "everything that rcS did for us before should still be guaranteed"
<ttx> soren: hm, right
<soren> ttx: At the very least, if such an assumption is broken, it should be documented..
<soren> ...and there should be another way to make sure it's taken care of.
<dpm> slangasek, thanks for letting me know about the translations notes. I've made some small changes according to the latest update of the translation stats yesterday, so I'm just letting you know in case you need extra notification: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicKoala/ReleaseAnnouncement?action=diff&rev2=7&rev1=6 and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicKoala/TechnicalOverview?action=diff&rev2=128&rev1=127
<soren> ..but seeing as this affects things that don't have upstart jobs, but as old style runlevel init scripts, I don't see how we can do that.
 * hyperair waves at YokoZar
<YokoZar> hmmm
<soren> Keybuk: May we invite you to join the discussion? :)
<slangasek> ultimately, the way it should be taken care of is by having everything migrated to upstart jobs
<YokoZar> hello there hyperair
<slangasek> but in the meantime, backwards-compat should be preserved
 * liw thinks s_langasek should write a book about distro release management
<slangasek> starting rc-sysinit later isn't a problem
<slangasek> liw: what, and become dispensible? :-)
<Chipzz> soren: I'm no expert at all on the issue, but... 1) if I understand correctly, rc-sysinit compat is implemented as an upstart job itself; 2) upstart jobs can have a pre-req on the old rcS stuff
<hyperair> YokoZar: hello there. this is regarding the ia32-libs issue, if you haven't already noticed =)
<liw> slangasek, there ain't nothing to make you dispensable, but writing the book would mean you'd have a convenient place to point at when people repeat mistakes :)
<soren> Chipzz: Oh, there are certainly mechanics for doing it.
<Chipzz> so why not add that pre-req to the upstart job that handles rc-sysinit compat?
<slangasek> liw: heh :)
<ttx> liw: so you should get plenty of time developing that killer picture manager ?
<YokoZar> hyperair: which issue?
<soren> Chipzz: The discussion is whether or not it's desirable. I believe it is. Key people are undecided.
<liw> ttx, yes, it is my cunning plan to get Steve have some free time so he can write the missing bits
<YokoZar> slangasek: Don't think of yourself as "dispensable", think "modular"
<hyperair> YokoZar: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ia32-libs/+bug/248392
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 248392 in ia32-libs "32bit libgl search for dri at wrong place on 64bit system" [Low,Confirmed]
<ttx> YokoZar: plugin-able ?
<Chipzz> soren: in my (irrelevant :P) opinion, if ppl are too lazy to migrate to upstart jobs, they shouldn't complain about being started later
<soren> Chipzz: Just because Ubuntu decides to switch to upstart doesn't make every person out there who ever wrote an init script lazy for not following suit.
<Chipzz> soren: I was referring to ubuntu packages that haven't migrated
<soren> Chipzz: So was I.
<Chipzz> the rc-sysinit compat stuff is exactly for external stuff
<Chipzz> but maybe "lazy" was a bit unnuanced :)
<Chipzz> anyway, just my 2c
<YokoZar> hyperair: so it's a mesa bug -- did you ever find the mesa bug that was said to already exist in the winehq thread?
<soren> Chipzz: there's little point in providing a compatibility system that provides an incompatible environment.
<hyperair> YokoZar: i did, yes.
<YokoZar> hyperair: link please (so I can attach it to launchpad)
<hyperair> but it's just related
<hyperair> it's not the same
<Chipzz> soren: in what way would it be incompatible? or are you referring to the state of affairs atm?
<YokoZar> well, the hard-coding is a bug we should file then
<Chipzz> s/atm/now
<hyperair> YokoZar: http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23335
<ubottu> Freedesktop bug 23335 in Drivers/DRI/i965 "[wine] Mesa returns invalid framebuffer status" [Normal,Assigned]
<hyperair> YokoZar: yes, pretty much. which is the bug that's mentioned there.
<hyperair> YokoZar: imo it's hardcoded based on the --prefix passed to mesa.
<soren> Chipzz: The loopback interface used to be configured when rc2.d/S* ran. That is no longer the case.
<hyperair> YokoZar: i'm not sure about how ia32-libs is built, but is it built with --libdir=/usr/lib32?
<soren> Chipzz: No longer /necessarily/ the case, I mean.
<soren> It's a race.
<hyperair> YokoZar: and i raelly meant that it's hardcoded based on --libdir.
<Chipzz> soren: right, so you're referring to the current state of affairs :)
<YokoZar> hyperair: no it's nowhere near smart enough to do that.  It literally downloads the 32 bit packages, rips their libraries out, and shoves them into /usr/lib32
<hyperair> figures
<soren> Chipzz: Yes.
<hyperair> YokoZar: perhaps the bundled source/deb pair within ia32-libs could be patched.
<YokoZar> hyperair: accordingly it may be ok for us to have a workaround patch in mesa itself until we can fix the issue properly
<YokoZar> hyperair: that's an option too
<hyperair> YokoZar: what do you mean workaround patch?
<hyperair> to fallback on /usr/lib<arch>?
<YokoZar> Well that would actually be a proper fix I guess
<hyperair> hmmm
<hyperair> i'll go talk to some mesa peoples then.
<hyperair> is it possible to get this fix into karmic?
<hyperair> even if this is just a workaround, it hides a more serious bug in wine (segfault issue)
<YokoZar> hyperair: with an SRU shortly after release probably
<hyperair> ah
<YokoZar> I dunno though depends on how fast you are ;)
<YokoZar> for inspiration you can look at how glib does things (asac and I were working on this earlier) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ia32-libs/+bug/369498
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 369498 in glib2.0 "32bits gtk and glib modules not found in ia32-libs" [Medium,In progress]
<asac> yes. i think the patch i prepared shouldnt be that far off from what is needed
<asac> just needs to be checked why it didnt work
<asac> must be something obvious
<YokoZar> it did work with canberra I think though
<YokoZar> eg we have /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/i486-pc-linux-gnu
<hyperair> ah GTK_HOST eh..
<YokoZar> maybe the issue with gvfs was a similar hard-coded path determined by --prefix at build time
<hyperair> actually there are loads of these
<directhex> oh, there was a missing lib in ia32-libs. libgnomekeyring i think
<directhex> used by adobe air
<YokoZar> directhex: is it still missing?  I went on a blitz adding libraries about a month back or so
<directhex> oh, i haven't checked for about a month or so
<soren> mvo: I'm looking at bug #461077.. The dpkgterminallog does not mention mysql-server anywhere. How can this happen?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461077 in mysql-dfsg-5.1 "package mysql-server-5.1 5.1.37-1ubuntu5 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess new pre-installation script killed by signal (Broken pipe)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461077
<directhex> YokoZar, definitely not there.
<mvo> soren: I don't know, I suspect it might be happen in pre-configure already
<mvo> soren: the log has "debconf: unable to initialize frontend: Dialog^M
<mvo> debconf: (Dialog frontend requires a screen at least 13 lines tall and 31 columns wide.)^M
<mvo> "
<soren> mvo: Perhaps. Hmm... Ok, thanks.
<Keybuk> slangasek, soren: I was only referring to the fact that loopback was never up before rcS
<Keybuk> rc2, certainly
<soren> Keybuk: You don't believe it was brought up by rcS.d/S40networking?
<soren> Oh, I see what you're saying.
<soren> Perhaps I'm misunderstanding rc-sysvinit.
<slangasek> Keybuk: something must have been lost in communication; I was asserting that before the rc2 scripts are run, everything that was previously handled by rcS should be finished
 * soren rereads
<slangasek> including the bits that have been converted to upstart jobs
<soren> rc-sysinit is the job that switches to runlevel 2, isn't it?
<soren> (or another configured runlevel)
<soren> Ah, no.
<Keybuk> yues
<soren> Well, yes, that too.
<Keybuk> it's probably correct to change rc-sysinit
<Keybuk> maybe to:
<soren> but it also runs the rcS script?
<Keybuk>   start on startup and filesystem and net-device-up lo
<Keybuk> ?
<soren> start on (filesystem and virtual-network)
<soren> ?
<soren> That matches the old behaviour.
<Keybuk> except for the lack of "virtual-network" event ;)
<Keybuk> (adding "on startup" fixes another bug - which WOULD BE NICE)
<soren> Oh, I was thinking of the virtual-filesystems event. Bah. My bad.
<soren> start on (startup and networking) ?
<Keybuk>   start on startup and filesystem and net-device-up lo
<soren> Keybuk: If the goal is to make sure that what was true when starting runlevel 2 pre-upstartification, it should be networking, me thinks.
<soren> Err..
<soren> Keybuk: If the goal is to make sure that what was true when starting runlevel 2 pre-upstartification, is still true now, it should be networking, I mean.
<Keybuk> then you will have the very strange effect where rcS/rc2 don't get started until well after X
<Keybuk> and honestly, "networking" hasn't started networking for many releases now
<Keybuk> so you're being unnecessarily picky :p
<Keybuk> we've called ifup from udev for *ages*
<Keybuk> since hardy certainly
<Keybuk> possibly before
<soren> Keybuk: Except for bonded interfaces, for instance.
<Keybuk> in fact, I think we may have even called ifup from hotplug
<soren> ...and similar stuff.
<Keybuk> you could do that
<Keybuk> the side-effect will be quite odd an unexpected though ;)
<soren> What, the bond device being configured, but having no physical interfaces attached to it? :)
<Keybuk> no, I mean the X11 sockets being removed after X is running <g>
<soren> Ngh..
<hyperair> YokoZar: a bit of digging shows that exporting DRI_DRIVER_SEARCH_DIR to /usr/lib/dri:/usr/lib32/dri during build should do the trick.
<soren> Yes, that would certainly qualify for "odd and unexpected" :)
<Keybuk> is the loopback device being missing the problem,
<soren> Keybuk: In this case, yes.
<Keybuk> or is an actual network device being missing the problem?
<YokoZar> hyperair: ooh, that does sound promising
<soren> Keybuk: Loopback.
<Keybuk> in which case, only fix the problem
<hyperair> YokoZar: =)
<soren> Keybuk: I'm just less convinced that you that that is the whole problem. :)
<Keybuk> there are bound to be regressions throughout the switch-over
<Keybuk> oh, I know it's not the whole problem
<Keybuk> all the time we have both sysvinit and upstart jobs, we're going to have bugs
<hyperair> YokoZar: http://pastebin.com/f49573d3e is what i have for mesa.
 * soren nods
<Keybuk> side-effect of only having 6 months for each release
<Keybuk> can't develop everything in 6 months <g>
<slangasek> right, other network interfaces not being guaranteed up at the end of 'networking' isn't a regression
<soren> I think it is, but I realise that fixing that causes other problems and may not be as critical.
<YokoZar> hyperair: do you mean to define DEFAULT_DRIVER_DIR as that or just export DRI_DRIVER_SEARCH_DIR ?
<slangasek> soren: no, it's not a /regression/
<soren> slangasek: I think it is.
<slangasek> you're mistaken, and I defer to Keybuk to prove it :)
<hyperair> YokoZar: that's a patch meant for upstream. downstream, without the patch, just exporting DRI_DRIVER_SEARCH_DIR will do the trick.
<hyperair> YokoZar: it's untested though. i'm going to give it a go
<YokoZar> Go for it :)
<hyperair> =)
<slangasek> soren: by "not a regression" I mean "this hasn't regressed since jaunty"
 * hyperair has a full archives mirror on LAN ;-)
<soren> slangasek: So do I.
<soren> slangasek: bonded interfaces were brought up by rcS.d/S40networking.
<soren> slangasek: ..so when you reached rc2.d/S* they were available.
<soren> slangasek: That is no longer necessarily the case, as you yourself determined yesterday.
<slangasek> soren: that could only be done if the underlying physical hardware had been detected and had its drivers loaded first, and that's not guaranteed to be the case
<YokoZar> hyperair: there is an (awkward) way to supply a home-built package into ia32-libs for testing too.  So just make sure mesa doesn't break on i386 and then we can push it as a normal update (and then have ia32-libs pull it in the natural way)
<slangasek> hurray for udev asynchronicity
<hyperair> YokoZar: how?
<Keybuk> right, it was never guaranteed that the underlying interfaces were up before S40networking ;)
<Keybuk> or even the underlying hardware
<slangasek> soren: now, there's a difference in the likelihood of a user /hitting/ this state
<soren> slangasek: Not /strictly/ guaranteed, but in almost every case a very reasonable assumption.
<Keybuk> soren: we always had a race condition
<Keybuk> you could have triggered it by just buying faster hardware
<YokoZar> hyperair: you apt-get source ia32-libs and put it in the pkgs folder in it ;)
<Keybuk> so, in theory, you need to just get slower hardware :p
<Keybuk> (or slower hardware, I can't remember which way things work)
<soren> Keybuk: Yet I didn't, and I've changed nothing about my hardware, but the system behaves differently. It's racy now on systems that did not used to be. that's a regression in my book.
<slangasek> Keybuk: faster hardware> or putting your bridging interface on USB network devices :)
<slangasek> soren: it really was racy before, too, you just never hit the race; this is a quantitative difference only
<soren> I'm not hugely interested in discussing theoretical properties of asynchronous device configuration. I'm talking about what /actually/ happens and how it affects users.
<Keybuk> soren: that's like saying the fact that the default theme is more brown than before is a regression
<Keybuk> it was always brown
<hyperair> YokoZar: ah.
<soren> Why the fsck do I always end up having this kind of argument with people?
<soren> Forget it.
<soren> Forgive me for trying to fix people's problems.
<hyperair> YokoZar: how do i get ia32-libs to add an extra symlink?
<YokoZar> hyperair: you add it manually in debian/rules
<hyperair> ok
<YokoZar> hyperair: using dh_link
<YokoZar> there's a bunch of examples in there to follow
<hyperair> okay
<Keybuk> soren: we're not saying there's no race here
<soren> Keybuk: I know.
<Keybuk> just the right way to fix that race is to convert the job to upstart
<Keybuk> which is designed, from the ground up, to avoid races
<soren> Keybuk: I know.
<slangasek> soren: the point is precisely that this problem can't be fixed without converting the bridge initialization to an asynchronous model as well, and you'll lose a lot of time trying to hack around it
<soren> I'm just saying that we're trying to provide a compatibility layer for stuff that is not yet converted to upstart jobs and that the compatibility layer provides an environment that demonstrably is /functionally/ incompatible with what we're trying to be compatible with.
<soren> I find that unfortunate, but if the owner of the project that holds the keys to the the magic box of tricks to fix it as well as the release manger things differently, I'm not going to waste more time on it.
<soren> s/things/thinks/
<soren> s/thinks/think/
<Keybuk> soren: well, not entirely
<Keybuk> it's compatible with what we *had*
<Keybuk> it's just not compatible with what people thought we had
<soren> The operative word being "functionally".
<Keybuk> and that's quite a big difference ;)
<soren> Hey, I can split hairs almost as well as the next guy.
<Keybuk> cf. recovery mode :)
<Keybuk> you could quibble about the return value of runlevel ;)
<Keybuk> (during rcS)
<Keybuk> that's much more fun
 * jdstrand remembers dealing with that one...
<Keybuk> in this case, I made a decision not to be compatible
<Keybuk> and instead fixed a bug <g>
<superm1> slangasek, yes sorry it was so late, these problems were just caught in testing last night.  it's had some testing by myself and someone else with a PPA during a dist-upgrade to make sure it DTRT (and does). that's a good point about the versioned file replaces, i can repeat the upload with that corrected for a re-roll
<slangasek> soren: AFAICS this conversation stems from you disagreeing with a very narrowly construed statement of mine that a particular race condition existed prior to karmic ("is not a regression").  I certainly didn't say the current behavior isn't unfortunate; I'm just perhaps a bit more sanguine about it than you because it's one in a long historical series of unfortunate design problems with sysvinit in general and the Debian init scripts in particular..
<slangasek> ... and also because I'm not the one who needs this to work personally
<slangasek> this is currently buggy; overall, however, I think karmic's init is no more buggy than jaunty's was, for the most part the bugs have just moved up the stack a little
<slangasek> superm1: yes, please reupload with that change, and I'll quick-accept to get it into the mythbuntu reroll
<superm1> great thanks
<ion> keybuk: Whatâs the kernel in the ubuntu-boot PPA for?
<Keybuk> ion: tell you later :p
<cody-somerville> ugh. gnome-screensaver has stopped working again in Xubuntu.
 * cody-somerville moans.
<soren> slangasek: I don't believe in resting on laurels because we're "no worse" than Jaunty. People using stuff like bonding device are not the sort of people who install beta versions or RC's of stuff, so they will not start seeing the problems and complaining about them until after release. I happen to work on the edition of Ubuntu that has to deal with them, so by extension it annoys me.
<soren> ...and I just don't know what to tell them if they come complaining. "sorry, you shouldn't run Karmic, so please use the downgrade tool.. Oh, wait.."
<ion> Add a sysvrc script that just waits for the bonding device to appear. :-P
<mvo> tseliot: can you have a look at #459829 please ?
<soren> If I /know/ what the fix is, I'd like to do it for them instead of having to tell them one. at. a. time.
<tseliot> mvo: sure
<tseliot> bug #459829
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 459829 in update-manager "Upgrade from Hardy to Karmic didn't remove lrm-video" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/459829
<mvo> tseliot: if its true that this causes failure on all nvidia systems on upgrade, that is pretty bad
<tseliot> mvo: from what I remember that script modprobes the nvidia modules and we don't need that anymore
<slangasek> soren: so, do you know what the fix is here?  Because as I said, I don't see a way to reliably address this without a lot of work to make bridge devices work asynchronously, and then we need some way for the rc job to wait for "the network" generally
<tseliot> mvo: so it's entirely possible that it's causing some nasty problems to the nvidia drivers
<soren> slangasek: In Jaunty, rcS.d/S40networking was finished when we reached runlevel 2.
<soren> slangasek: I realise that adding that dependency causes other problems, but virtaully all of this discussion has been about whether or not "being racy" is a binary, not about how to solve the problems.
<slangasek> soren: and with the way things are parallelized now, with rcS.d much shorter and faster, using that script as a synchronization point is not likely to do the job anymore
<slangasek> you're much more likely to reach that script before all your network hardware is up
<soren> Then we're far worse off than I thought.
<soren> that means bonding device will *never* be configured.
<soren> slangasek: but good point.
<liw> wait, are you talking about the network interfaces not coming up properly on karmic when a static /etc/network/interfaces is used and has bridging configured? 'cause I'm seeing that occasionally on my desktop machine
<slangasek> liw: yes
<soren> liw: Yes.
<liw> is there a workaround? (or you can tell me to read all of backlog)
<slangasek> liw: stick a sleep 5 in /etc/init/networking.conf?
<liw> oh, that's clever. I'll do that, thanks
<liw> (as soon as I figure out the actual syntax)
<slangasek> liw: I mean 'pre-start exec sleep 5'
<soren> liw: have a cronjob run "ifup -a" every minute or so
<soren> :)
<sistpoty|work> why does it work for me then? :)
<liw> slangasek, thanks (I used sleep 30, just to be sure)
<liw> sistpoty|work, if it's a race condition, you're just lucky; wanna play some poker? :)
<sistpoty|work> heh
<slangasek> depends on things like how long it takes to init your network devices, how many distinct local filesystems you have, how much other extraneous hardware you have in the box
<slangasek> even depends on how initramfs-tools is configured on your system
<liw> soren, has the KVM page on help.ubuntu.com (or wherever it is these days) been updated with this workaround? if not, could you take care of that?
<slangasek> soren, liw: so that workaround takes care of half of the problem, the other half being that we still need to make rc wait for networking
<soren> liw: I only just realised this very problem twenty minutes ago.
<soren> liw: 14:59:06 < soren> Then we're far worse off than I thought.
<soren> liw: The moment of epiphany :)
<liw> soren, that's more than 1500 seconds for you have to have patched the docs ;)
<soren> slangasek: Yeah. Adding the sleep will make that problem even worse.
<soren> liw: I think it should be somewhere not quite as virtualisation specific.
<slangasek> Keybuk: do you plan to SRU for bug #461725?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461725 in upstart "rc-sysinit job might start before loopback is up" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461725
<Keybuk> would you like me to SRU for bug 461725
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461725 in upstart "rc-sysinit job might start before loopback is up" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461725
<slangasek> yes
<Keybuk> then I will ;-)
<LaserJock> slangasek: should the latest edubuntu .iso be up on the iso tracker? I don't see anything listed for final release testing
<slangasek> LaserJock: I can post it, but we're in a full-spectrum reroll right now due to some generic installer bugs that turned up
<slangasek> LaserJock: if you'd like me to post it for you for smoketesting purposes, I can do so
<LaserJock> slangasek: ok, no problem, I just wondered what you needed from us for final release
<slangasek> LaserJock: will you do a release announcement this cycle that I should link to? (e.g., http://edubuntu.org/news/9.10-release)
<slangasek> LaserJock: there's also upgrade testing that can be done in the meantime (http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/upgrade/all)
<LaserJock> slangasek: yes to the release announcement
<LaserJock> slangasek: and that's the url we'll use
<tseliot> mvo: are you going to remove /ect/modprobe.d/lrm-video in dist-upgrades?
<pitti> tseliot: what wrote/shipped that file?
<pitti> shouldn't that package clean it up on upgrades? (to also work with aptitude/apt-get dist-upgrade)
<tseliot> pitti: linux-restricted-modules-common i.e. the l-r-m
<tseliot> I don't know why it's not removed
<pitti> was it a conffile?
<pitti> I suppose something conflicts: l-r-m on upgrade
<pitti> but packages are removed, not purged
<tseliot> it's a script which used to modprobe fglrx and nvidia
<tseliot> oh
<pitti> I meant, was it shipped in the package, or created/removed in postinst/postrm?
<tseliot> I *think* it was in the package
<mvo> tseliot: I'm currently setting up my test machine with nvidia to see if I can reproduce, but yeah, I think something should rmeove it
 * tseliot nods
<mvo> pitti: its in the package, shows up in apt-file-search
<mvo> pitti: and a conffile
<tseliot> from what I remember it modprobed either nvidia, nvidia_new or nvidia_legacy (from the l-r-m) or just nvidia if envyng was there
<pitti> Keybuk: current m-i-t still evaluates files which don't end in .conf ?
<Keybuk> yes
<pitti> tseliot: ^ ok, so that won't help us then
<pitti> Keybuk: thanks
<mvo> tseliot: and fglrx it seems
<tseliot> yes, I noticed that. It should just give you a warning
<tseliot> mvo: yes, of course. Fortunately there was only 1 version of fglrx
<mvo> is there something like fglrx-common? it sounds like we should just rm -f it in nvidia-common (and fglrx-common)
<tseliot> no, I don't think we've ever had an fglrx-common script
<tseliot> mvo: did you mean nvidia-kernel-common?
<tseliot> nvidia-common is a different thing
<tseliot> aah
<tseliot> ok, I misread what you wrote
<tseliot> rm -f in the preinst or postinst of nvidia-common should work
<mvo> tseliot: ok, cool. I prepare a update. thanks for your input
<Gizmo> Hi. I am interested to find out if the Ubuntu installer has been modified with regards to the treatment of the swap partition? I am comparing two versions 8.10 and 9.04, and I have found 8.10 to cache some setup data in the swap partition, but 9.04 seems not to do so. I would like to know what code has been changed and where if anyone could point me in the right direction?
<tseliot> mvo: thanks for reporting the problem :-)
<tseliot> pitti: do you know why hal might be failing (at random) to apply some settings in the synaptics fdi?
<pitti> tseliot: no idea, without further details
<pitti> the XML might be malformed or the cache outdated
<pitti> those are the two most common ones
<tseliot> pitti: I thought of the latter but apw told me that it's random
<tseliot> is the cache updated automatically on boot?
<pitti> tseliot: no, just when something installs/changes/removes an .fdi
<pitti> it's a dpkg trigger
<apw> pitti, i see the 'fix' for the 10v touchpad fail to apply about one boot in 4 or 5
<apw> i saw it occur for scott too today, so its not just me
<tseliot> that fix matches the product id of the netbook and apply the appropriate options accordingly
<pitti> which .fdi are we talking about?
<tseliot> /usr/share/hal/fdi/policy/20thirdparty/11-x11-synaptics.fdi
<cjwatson> Gizmo: "setup data"?
<Keybuk> (as in he saw Keybuk thump his computer angrily)
<pitti> apw: would be interesting if you can reproduce it under hal debug mode (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingHal); I'd love to see a log where it's failing
<Gizmo> cjwatson: yes - bits and pieces of text gathered during the iinstallation
<cjwatson> Gizmo: I'd expect that to be essentially random
<Gizmo> cjwatson: yes, I think it is.
<cjwatson> the swap partition will contain all sorts of random stuff that happened to be in memory
<liw> Gizmo, isn't it normal that the swap partition has some data that was in RAM during installation but got swapped out due to memory constraints?
<pitti> apw: and corresponding lshal output
<cjwatson> to my knowledge there was no relevant behavioural change
<cjwatson> any emergent change will be due to things like slightly different memory consumption figures causing different swap usage
<Gizmo> cjwatson: liw yes, it is. But my tests are indiciating currently that on the same machine with the same amount of RAM data is swapped with 8.10 but not with 9.04. I was curious to know if this was a deliberate change or just circumstantial.
<cjwatson> 8.10 and 9.04 don't take up exactly the same amount of memory due to installation
<Gizmo> swapped from the installation, to be precise
<cjwatson> I'm curious why you're bothering to test this :)
<cjwatson> it's certainly circumstantial
<Gizmo> cjwatson: I am doing a study.
<cjwatson> do you understand virtual memory, in general?
<ccheney> using some swap doesn't really tell you anything
<ccheney> i have some swap used on a 8GB machine but it also has 6896MB free
<Gizmo> I am in the process of conducting various tests, but in my first test I found that the password entered during setup was cached in the swap partition, in plain text. I was seeing if this also occured with ver 9.04. This is why I am asking.
<ccheney> the kernel (aiui) just moves some stuff out if it is not used much to allow more space for cache/buffers
<ccheney> Gizmo: oh
<Gizmo> I am doing a MSc project you see.
<Gizmo> And this is part of my chosen area of strudy
<Gizmo> study
<Gizmo> It may have been a ranom dump of data, and I am trying to see if I can repeat it
<ccheney> Gizmo: well cjwatson is one of the best people to be talking to for that :)
<Gizmo> It hasn't happended with 9.04, so I wondered if the dev's had realised the problem with 8.10 and patched it. I fthey had, I wanted to know where
<mvo> tseliot: nvidia-common bzr and arcihve are out of sync (FYI)
<tseliot> mvo: :-/ let me check
<Gizmo> ccheney: cjwatson yes, I have repeated the test with 8.10 again, using a diff username and password. It's definately cached to swap with a machine using 1Gb. Might not with higher RAM levels.
<tseliot> mvo: my bad, the last commit was rejected. I'll remove it
<Gizmo> I was starting to panic that the 5 pages I've written on the subject might have been wrong, but thankfully not. If it's reliably dumping this data, but isn't with 9.04, there must have been a code page somewhere
<Gizmo> code change somewhere, rather
<joaopinto> Gizmo, if something was changed it is related to the installer swap configuration, linux kernel virtual memory management, it was not related to the installer/security per si
<liw> Gizmo, not necessarily; it might just be that under 8.10 it happened to always do it and random changes in 9.04 makes the password not be swapped out; but hopefully someone's realized that locking the password into memory is a good thing, you could grep the sources for that
<Gizmo> joaopinto: OK - so would you be able to tell me where I would find the code for the installwer swap config? liw yes - good idea
<joaopinto> Gizmo, erm, better go the way around look for the password config code
<Gizmo> liw: how would one grep the sources?
<Gizmo> forgive me - I am not a developer :-(
<mvo> tseliot: i have nvidia-common rev17 from 2009-07-30 here
<joaopinto> if there is nothing mandating that the entire process should always be on physical RAM, it can randomly get swapped
<mvo> tseliot: that is what I get with debcheckout (that looks at the vcs-bzr header)
<cjwatson> Gizmo: I think you are attempting to study something essentially random
<tseliot> mvo: actually, now that I look at the diff, revision 17 should be ok
<cjwatson> Gizmo: I don't know of any relevant code changes
<tseliot> mvo: but it's not here: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/karmic/nvidia-common/karmic
<Gizmo> cjwatson: you could well be right, but I have created 3 virtual machines, each with different usernames and passwords. When I examined each one afterwards (of the 8.10 distribution) all of the 3 passwords were cached. Same tests done with 9.04 showed no passwords. So I take your point that in theory it would be random, but my tests suggest otherwise.
<cjwatson> Gizmo: the password utilities don't call mlock, which is what I would expect to see if passwords were being locked out of swap
<joaopinto> Gizmo, you are reproducing the conditions on your tests, that is not random :)
<tseliot> mvo: can you put revision 17 in your upload too?
<Gizmo> I think the best way for me to document this one way or another is to work out which part of the installer is responsbile for the collection of the password (Step 5 of the installation) and which part does anything with the swap. Maybe it does a cleanup or something at the end?
<cjwatson> Gizmo: of course, the passwords go between several different processes before ending up in the password file
<mpt> mvo, I have a couple of questions about packaging relationships if now's an okay time (perhaps it isn't?)
<cjwatson> Gizmo: and I'm certain that not all of those lock it out of swpa
<cjwatson> swap
<Gizmo> cjwatson: I quite agree, but I'm not suggesting it's deliberately stored and read back from swap. The PW is entered by the user, put into RAM, and then written to the /etc/passwd & shadow files having being encoded etc, but that is obviously once the filesystem has been built, whicvh at the time the PW is requested, it hasn't been.
<cjwatson> it's entered into the frontend (ubiquity in the desktop CD, cdebconf in the alternate/server CD); in the desktop CD case, ubiquity passes it to debconf; that gets returned to user-setup, which passes it through the shell a couple of times; and user-setup passes it to chpasswd
<joaopinto> Gizmo, anyway, you mentioned a problem, and the possibility of it being fixed, have you reported it ?
<mvo> tseliot: the last revision i have in bzr is 0.2.12 the last in the archive is 0.2.15
<cjwatson> there are several places there where it'll be in RAM temporarily
<Gizmo> cjwatson: excellent - that's what I was after
<cjwatson> I don't believe any of those saw significant changes in 9.04, and certainly not all of them
<mvo> mpt: not a good time, but ask anyway, if you don't mind delays in answering
<cjwatson> so I'm not disputing that you see it in swap - what I'm saying is that the fact that it *isn't* in swap in 9.04 is essentially random, even if the variables controlling that are always more or less the same in *your* tests
<Gizmo> joaopinto: no, I haven't. I am a forensic practitioner so my study is to work out potential weaknesses.
<cjwatson> random in the sense that there's nothing in the installer to prevent it
<cjwatson> I would certainly accept a bug report on this
<mvo> tseliot: I wonder if we could move it to something like ~ubuntu-core-dev or  ~ubuntu-desktop from the current ~tseliot location ? not important though
<cjwatson> although I would also argue that people who are concerned about attackers having direct access to their swap partition should be using encrypted swap
<tseliot> mvo: I'm not a core-dev or a motu yet
<mvo> tseliot: aha, ok
<Gizmo> cjwatson: ha - it's funny you mention that. My MSc study is, in fact, relating to eCryptFS, introduced in 8.10.
<cjwatson> (only root, or other physical access, can get direct access to swap, and those people can also grab the shadow password file and crack it at their leisure)
<cjwatson> ecryptfs isn't encrypted swap
<cjwatson> in 9.10, however, we take more care here
<Gizmo> cjwatson: No, but it can be encrypted with it
<cjwatson> if encryption is enabled, 9.10 zeroes swap at the end of installation
<Gizmo> yes, buit it is not enabled by default...yet
<cjwatson> correct
<cjwatson> there are many other vulnerabilities open to an attacker with this level of access when the disk isn't encrypted
<cjwatson> zeroing in on a particular one of them isn't necessarily the best answer :)
<mvo> Riddell: I saw some "widget-plugins/kde4.py" releated errors in u-m (like bug #459471)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 459471 in update-manager "[Karmic] update-manager-kde: not handled exception in KDE frontend" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/459471
<Gizmo> cjwatson: thanks. This is just one of 15 areas I am looking at, unfortunately. My project is not just about the swap.  Are you one of the main Ubuntu dev's?
<mvo> Riddell: is there any news on what is causing this?
<joaopinto> the login password is probably not the most valuable asset if you can read the entire disk :P
<cjwatson> Gizmo: yes
<Gizmo> joaopinto: quite true, but if you want to crack encryption, it might be!!
<tseliot> mvo: maybe it's easier if I put the code from karmic in my branch (after cleaning up my branch)
<Gizmo> cjwatson: do you know Dustin Kirkland?
<cjwatson> I would be inclined to say that there is not very much valuable data on a system that was only just installed!
<cjwatson> and if it wasn't only just installed, whatever part of swap that holds the password is very likely to have been overwritten
<Gizmo> cjwatson: as a generalisation, I quite agree.
<cjwatson> so this is unlikely to be a realistic attack on a system containing real valuable data
<mvo> tseliot: I can just upload as a normal package and let you sort it out. its only affecting hardy->karmic so it is just a minority
<cjwatson> yes, I know Dustin
<joaopinto> cjwatson, there is a lot of people doing fresh installs with a /home partition :P
<Riddell> mvo: pyqt got a late move to python-support, that file is now in /usr/share/pyshared/PyQt4/uic/widget-plugins/kde4.py
<tseliot> mvo: ok, thanks. I'll clean my branch tomorrow and pull from karmic after your upload
<cjwatson> joaopinto: which won't be encrypted, then
<mvo> tseliot: thanks, I will uplaod when karmic-proposed opens, not sure when that will happen. I will let you know
<cjwatson> or at least if it is, ubiquity already probably won't cope very well
<tseliot> mvo: ok, there's no hurry
<mvo> Riddell: urgh, that seems to be causing issues, maybe we need to add a symlink or something
<mvo> Riddell: I will try to figure out if its a general problem or just a corner case
<Gizmo> cjwatson: the thoery and liklihoods of things are not what I am trying to document. I am documenting potential areas of interest and possibilities. As a forensic finding, the fact that a setup sudo password may pontetially be recovered from the swap is a good thing. Yes, it may have been overwritten, but it may not. It's all about possibilities.
<Gizmo> Obviously from a security point of view for Ubuntu, it's not so good.
<Gizmo> But then, as you say, it's not likely to be recovered anyway
<Gizmo> so it's not that much of a bad thing
<Riddell> mvo: /usr/share/python-qt4/widget-plugins/kde4.py is pointing at the wrong place
<slangasek> mvo: karmic-proposed is already open for business
<mvo> Riddell: on jaunty? karmic? during the upgrade?
<Riddell> mvo: but I'm not sure why that file would be used rather than the /var/lib/python-support/python2.6/PyQt4/uic/widget-plugins/kde4.py one which is actually in the python library path
<mvo> slangasek: sweet, many thanks
<Riddell> mvo: in karmic
<cjwatson> Gizmo: right, from a development point of view, it's important to prioritise likely problems over unlikely ones
<cjwatson> Gizmo: of course you're free to document whatever you like :)
<mvo> Riddell: I don't know, maybe its because the jaunty version was loaded when hte upgrade starts and its still having a memory refrecne to it
<Riddell> yes maybe
<Gizmo> cjwatson: absolutely. I doubt this is really worth the investment of time for Canonical. It's an interesting find though, do you not think?
<mvo> Riddell: I will try to reproduce and see if I can come up with a workaround
<Gizmo> cjwatson: The answer you gave me above regarding the cycle of the password through the various steps, I'd like to use in my work. I can't quote IRC channels as an academic resource but I can quote individual developers. Would you object to being named? If so, do you know where I would find that information in a published sense? Where did you get it from, for example?
<Riddell> mvo: it sounds like it's only in the cases where upgrade is already failing?  I should do a SRU for kdebindings to fix the symlink and that would solve it once it got in?
<mvo> Riddell: I'm not sure, it maybe when there is a conffile prompt or something else that need to pop up a dialog
<mvo> Riddell: at least that is my theory right now
<Riddell> mvo: even so a SRU should sort it surely
<mvo> Riddell: yeah, looks much like being caused by a conffile prompt
<mvo> Riddell: yes, if you have that in the works I will just dup the bugs
<zooko> Folks, the problem with binutils assembling incorrectly is being looked at by Wei Dai: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/461303
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461303 in binutils "generates-bad-code regression" [Undecided,New]
<mvo> Riddell: do you have a master bug for this?
<Riddell> mvo: no, I think you can just move this one to kdebindings if you want
<mvo> Riddell: thanks, done that and targeted to karmic-updates
<cjwatson> Gizmo: I got it from having written a fairly substantial amount of the code and knowing it well :)
<cjwatson> Gizmo: feel free to quote me
<Gizmo> cjwatson: ha - I see!!
<Gizmo> cjwatson: thats impressive then
<cjwatson> Gizmo: you can 'apt-get source PACKAGE' with any of the things I quoted instead of PACKAGE (except that chpasswd is in shadow)
<cjwatson> and read the code
<Gizmo> Would you tell me your real name? Mine is Ted Smith, if that helps
<cjwatson> though it's a pretty big codebase
<cjwatson> Gizmo: type '/whois cjwatson' at your IRC client
<cjwatson> Gizmo: yes, I think it is interesting, and we may want to consider just always zeroing swap at the end of installation
<Gizmo> Can I ask what your offocial title is in Canonical?
<cjwatson> since there's a lot of code in the installer that is not especially security-conscious
<cjwatson> Gizmo: you can't reliably assume that all Ubuntu developers work for Canonical, although as it happens I do
 * slangasek patches ubiquity to call mlockall()
<cjwatson> Technical Lead, Ubuntu Foundations Team
<Gizmo> cjwatson: Thanks very much. Will I get my name in lights anywhere if you implement this...ha?
<cjwatson> slangasek: hah. (does fork/execve preserve mlockall)
<cjwatson> Gizmo: if you file a bug, you might get a changelog mention :)
<cjwatson> slangasek: ah, fork documents that it doesn't
<slangasek> right :)
<cjwatson> and indeed so does execve
<Gizmo> cjwatson: maybe I'll do that then. Is there a proper place to do that (obviously there is, I am being lazy and asking you what it is!!)?
<cjwatson> Gizmo: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs; the relevant package name (to start with, anyway) is ubiquity
<spaetz> Gizmo, bugs.ubuntu.com
<joaopinto> Gizmo, you maybe interested in http://philosecurity.org/research/cleartext-passwords-linux
<joaopinto> you are just addressing a particular case of plaintext passwords lifecycle
<mathiaz> cjwatson: I'm trying to find a workaround for bug 458904
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458904 in eucalyptus "Adding nodes in several waves after launching VMs is not possible" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/458904
<mathiaz> cjwatson: is there a reason why euca_find_cluster is using avahi_address_snprint?
<mathiaz> cjwatson: it seems that in some cases avahi_address_snprint doesn't return the correct IP address
<mathiaz> cjwatson: we've already run into a similar bug when the IP was 169.254.169.254 and we've special-cased it
<mathiaz> cjwatson: it seems that the bug comes back in other configurations
<mathiaz> cjwatson: so I was wondering why we should not always use the name and no the human_address?
<mathiaz> cjwatson: see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/eucalyptus/+bug/458904/comments/4
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 458904 in eucalyptus "Adding nodes in several waves after launching VMs is not possible" [High,Confirmed]
<cjwatson> mathiaz: I have no idea, I think I was using what appeared to make sense at the time :)
<MacSlow> ehm... what happened to the packages name xserver-xorg-video-ati?
<cjwatson> MacSlow: nothing
<MacSlow> I can't reassign a bug to that package anymore
<MacSlow> cjwatson, some lp issue?
<cjwatson> I have no idea
<cjwatson> it's a valid package name
<MacSlow> cjwatson, ehm... hm.. *shrug*
<Chipzz> Gizmo: btw, there's also (I think) #ubuntu-installer
<Chipzz> which is about ubiquity/debian-installer
<LaserJock> are the Ubuntu release notes kept on the wiki after release?
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> "kept" in the sense that they're available there for further editing, not that the wiki is the official location
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> slangasek: the official location is on ubuntu.com?
<LaserJock> I assume anyway
<slangasek> yes, e.g. http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/910
<primes2h> cr3: Hello, I just upgraded checkbox to 0.8.5 version but translation is still missing some strings
<primes2h> cr3: it's not updated
<primes2h> cr3: any ideas?
<cr3> primes2h: I downloaded the strings when we last discussed, but I actually received confirmation that launchpad accepted my pot file yesterday
<cr3> primes2h: I'm not sufficiently familiar with launchpad translations to understand exactly what might be the problem
<primes2h> cr3: That strings are ok, I just checked them
<primes2h> cr3: did you put them in your package?
<cr3> primes2h: cool, so what strings aren't translated then?
<cr3> primes2h: yeah, I'll pull up the commit I did with the tarball launchpad sent me... one moment
<primes2h> cr3: I mean the tar.gz I showed you is ok.
<cr3> primes2h: this is what I received by email: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~checkbox-dev/checkbox/trunk/revision/682
<primes2h> cr3: but translations appearing using the package are the same as they were
<primes2h> two days ago
<cr3> err, that's the commit I did based on the tarball I received by email
<cr3> primes2h: hm, that's very strange indeed
<primes2h> cr3: those po are ok
<primes2h> cr3:  but the application still shows them not correctly
<cr3> primes2h: it seems that lp:ubuntu/karmic/checkbox has not been updated, so I don't know from what sources the package was built
<primes2h> cr3: What is strange is that some new strings are translated, other are not.
<primes2h> cr3: it seems that they have been taken in the middle of translations
<primes2h> cr3: I mean
<primes2h> cr3: there is a string (a new one)  that I translated and then I updated one hour after.
<primes2h> cr3: it shows the first translation
<primes2h> but it was still Thursday.. 17.00 in the afternoon
<mathiaz> cr3: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/checkbox/
<mathiaz> cr3: ^^ this has the updated source package
<mathiaz> cr3: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/34423527/checkbox_0.8.4_0.8.5.diff.gz
<mathiaz> cr3: ^^ diff between 0.8.4 and 0.8.5 - new translations are there
<cr3> primes2h: can you have a look at the above diff and let me know if those po changes look alright?
<primes2h> cr3: The italian one is OK.
<cr3> primes2h: is the italian translation in the above diff different from the one in the package?
<hyperair> YokoZar: i've more or less nailed it down, filed the bugs, and attached the patches =)
<primes2h> cr3: no, it's the same
<primes2h> cr3: I just downloaded the source package
<primes2h> I've
<primes2h> cr3: now I must go. I'll be here in 1 and a half hour
<slangasek> LaserJock: ETA of 1h30 for the respin of edubuntu DVDs to finish
<slangasek> LaserJock: will be 20091027.1 when available
<LaserJock> slangasek: k, thanks
<hdon> hi all. i have some funny iconv behavior.. i think. can someone take a look at these couple of lines? http://pastebin.mozilla.org/679415
<slangasek> cody-somerville: will http://xubuntu.org/news/9.10-release be the url I want to link from the announcement?
<slangasek> superm1: is http://mythbuntu.org/9.10/release going to be the right url to link from the announcement?
<slangasek> TheMuso, luisbg: will there be a release announcement page for Ubuntu Studio that you want me to link to, or will you use the download page like before?
<ion> hdon: Looks right.
<hdon> ion: well, isn't UTF-8 "C3 89" the character e-accent-acute? in ISO-8859-1 that should be C9
<luisbg> slangasek, we can use the download page as before... the release notes are linked from there
<luisbg> slangasek, or we can send you the link to the release notes (once we publish them)
<luisbg> what do you think is best?
<cody-somerville> slangasek, what is the url the ubuntu website is using?
<ion> hdon: Youâre saying âplease convert this ISO-8859-1 string to UTF-8â and passing it C3 89.
<slangasek> cody-somerville: I don't think there's an equivalent, really
<hdon> ion: no, that's backwards
<superm1> slangasek, Yes
<slangasek> cody-somerville: this is the draft content for the email: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicKoala/ReleaseAnnouncement
<hdon> !!
<hdon> oh
<hdon> ion: thanks
<cody-somerville> slangasek, Okay, the url you mentioned will be used.
<slangasek> luisbg: would need to have the url available to me beforehand, timing is a little tight at release time :)  I can just use the download page, then
<slangasek> superm1: ok, thanks for confirming
<slangasek> cody-somerville: ack, thanks
<luisbg> slangasek, we use the wiki so I can have the URL decided before writing the document
<luisbg> slangasek, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/9.10release_notes
<luisbg> like that :)
<slangasek> luisbg: ok - fwiw, I'm not sure how available the wiki is going to be during the release, but I can point there if you wish
<luisbg> slangasek, how available the wiki si going to be during release?
<luisbg> what do you mean?
<slangasek> luisbg: wiki.ubuntu.com tends to get crushed by the traffic around release time
<luisbg> ahhh ok
<luisbg> slangasek, thats fine, I will get the document ready then sooner possible
<jdstrand> ttx: hey. I noticed people are getting rather vocal in bug #426497
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 426497 in qemu-kvm "kqemu mode not compiled for karmic" [Wishlist,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/426497
<jdstrand> ttx: I don't know if it is documented anywhere, but it perhaps should be that kqemu support is no more. just my two cents
<jdstrand> ttx: though, I must say I am saddened that it is gone myself
<jdstrand> *sniff*
<jdstrand> (I know why though)
<primes2h> cr3: I think I've worked out what happened
<ttx> jdstrand: let me look
<primes2h> cr3: langpacks should have priority over package pos
<primes2h> cr3: but
<primes2h> cr3: for a strange reason translations were taken early during the day (22)
<primes2h> cr3: They are usually taken on the evening, I don't know why in this cycle they have been worked out earlier
<cr3> primes2h: thanks for sharing that, I still have a lot to learn about the release process
<ttx> jdstrand: makes sense to document that...
<ttx> kirkland: ^?
<primes2h> cr3: no problem. ;) I'm only a bit angry about that out-of-the-common thing.
<LaserJock> I need a KDE karmic user
<dtchen> LaserJock: ...for?
<LaserJock> dtchen: I'd like to know what comes up when you search for Edubuntu in Kpackagekit (or whatever GUI package installer is used)
<highvoltage> what is the kubuntu package tool thingy these days? I think last when I used Kubuntu it was Kynaptic
<dtchen> LaserJock: sec, vbox is taking a bit
<dtchen> LaserJock: http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~dtchen/20091027_vbox_kubuntu-desktop-i386-kpackagekit-edubuntu-search.png
<LaserJock> dtchen: perfect!
<highvoltage> heh, I guess I can stop my kpackagekit installation then
<TheMuso> slangasek: Re studio, I don;t know what the others want, I am not involved with putting pages together etc, so unless you've received a different answer, I'd just say go the download page... If its been updated. :)
<dupondje> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/456261
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 456261 in network-manager "NetworkManager won't allow user to edit settings of Mobile Broadband connection" [Undecided,New]
<dupondje> surely a to-fix-for-final :P
<TheMuso> dupondje: Likely an SRU at this point.
<joaopinto> or maybe not
<joaopinto> it doesn't look reproducible
<dupondje> can reproduce it every time :s
<dupondje> just make a Mobile Connection in NetworkManager
<dupondje> enable 'availible to all users'
<dupondje> close Network Manager
<dupondje> start it again
<dupondje> try to edit the connection
<dupondje> it asks for password, you enter it, you get error
<dupondje> and NetworkManager crashes
<dupondje> :p
<dupondje> joaopinto: you can reproduce ? .)
<joaopinto> no
<msaraujo> hi
<msaraujo> hi
<msaraujo> if I install libsvn-dev, how can I include the svn headers?
<joaopinto> msaraujo, read the topic :)
<msaraujo> joaopinto: okay.
<jdstrand> slangasek: fyi-- bug #462258
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462258 in mdadm "raid1 won't boot in degraded mode" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462258
<jdstrand> slangasek: I can't do any more triage atm
<jdstrand> will try back later
<msaraujo> joaopinto: have a nice day
<William-Ubuntu>  can any body tell me the different between ubuntu 9.10dvd and cd?
<TheMuso> William-Ubuntu: The DVD has both the live image, and the packages in individual debs.
<William-Ubuntu> thanks
<TheMuso> np
<maxb> Is the DVD basically the live CD plus the alternate CD plus lots of .debs ?
<TheMuso> maxb: I believe so.
<ebroder> The security team's PPA is restricted access, right? How do they do that?
<ebroder> (on an apt level, not a Soyuz level)
<wgrant> ebroder: HTTP authentication, with the credentials embedded in the URL in sources.list.
#ubuntu-devel 2009-10-28
<genii> Is there a decent channel or resource to find out what is available for ARM platforms?
<genii> (more specifically Cortex A8)
<jdong> who in ~core-dev usually cares about Transmission (the bittorrent client)?
<jdong> in bug 460620, people are reporting that private trackers are starting to ban transmission <=1.75
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 460620 in transmission "Transmission Version 1.76 is Available" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/460620
<jdong> in which case, 1.76 is a fairly unintrusive, bugfix-only minor release.
<jdong> it may be worth sticking that into -proposed.
<ajmitch> jdong: they're banning something only a couple of days after a new version is released?
<jdong> ajmitch: it doesn't make much sense to me either
<ajmitch> the world of bittorrent is full of crack
<jdong> yeah private torrent trackers are some sort of black magic groupthink.
<lifeless> ogra: whats up with http://www.plugcomputer.org/plugwiki/index.php/Ubuntu_9.0.4_Plug_Computer_Distribution saying karmic isn't supported?
<ebroder> Is there a reason that Karmic has a Debian-native source package but a non-native version number?
<lifeless> ebroder: EPARSE
<ebroder> Err, sorry - typo. "Is there a reason that Karmic's dbus has a Debian-native..."
<ajmitch> someone made a mistake in the upload?
<ajmitch> or it could be intentional, it looks like it goes back a few revisions
<ebroder> Looks like it started with the first 1.2.16 upload
<ebroder> The 1.2.14 releases had .diff.gzs
<ebroder> I'll file a bug
<jdong> looks to me like it "accidentally" mutated into a debian-native package :)
<ebroder> Agreed
 * jdong starts a bzr-related conspiracy theory!
<ajmitch> though if it's in bzr, it should at least mention that somewhere in the package
<ebroder> bug #462326 if you want to follow along
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462326 in dbus "dbus has non-Debian-native version number but Debian-native package" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462326
<hyperair> is there any way at all to get the $host string as autotools' configure sees it, from, say dpkg-architecture?
<lifeless> apparently we're meant to for all packages nowadays
<lifeless> I haven't looked up the $foo to do that
<hyperair> well yeah
<hyperair> but the problem is configure detects i486-pc-linux-gnu
<hyperair> and dpkg-architecture says i486-linux-gnu
 * hyperair grumbles. why can't it all just be standardized already?!
<zooko> doko__: good job identifying that GNU assembler patch.
<Rovanion> How do I get hold of makeinfo?
<TheMuso> Rovanion: Its in texinfo I think.
<Rovanion> Thank you, and what's the package name for the c++ g++ compiler?
<Rovanion> I found it, build-essential
<ScottK> zooko: So you got it firgured out?
<zooko> doko has isolated the change to binutils that causes the problem and opened a ticket with them.  That's progress.
<ScottK> Cool.
<ScottK> zooko: Any way to figure out if there are affected packages in the archive?  I'd guess there are ...
<zooko> I have no idea, but you're right that this should be investigated.
<zooko> The first thing we can do is exclude all packages that were built before the bad binutils version.
<zooko> The next thing is that as far as we know this affects only assembly code, not C or C+.
<zooko> C++.
<zooko> But I have almost no understanding of the actual issue in binutils.
<zooko> I'm tired and I'm feeling the strong urge to play a game.
<zooko> Buuut I guess there are a few important tasks for my open source project that I should do first...
<zooko> Hm, I see that Alan Modra posted an example on http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=10856
<ubottu> sourceware.org bug 10856 in gas "[2.20 regression] gas creates wrong code which results in a test failure in libcrypto++'s sha2 test" [Normal,New]
<zooko> If I understand correctly this issue affects only asm code with ".intel_syntax".
<zooko> I can't stand it anymore.  I'm giving into my craving and starting a game of Dungeon Crawl.
<scarface[94]> hi guys. just wondering what time i will be able to update to 'karmic koala', no the RC. Preferably in AEDST.
<TheMuso> scarface[94]: If you intend to update your system via apt-get upgrade, thats possible now.
<scarface[94]> to the final release, not the RC?
<StevenK> scarface[94]: Your best bet is to wait for the release annoucement
<hyperair> YokoZar: ping
<dholbach> good morning
<hyperair> YokoZar: is it okay if i use i486-linux-gnu (what dpkg-architecture returns) instead of i486-pc-linux-gnu (what configure detects and places in $host)?
<hyperair> for ia32-libs, that is
<hyperair> morning dholbach =)
<dholbach> hey hyperair
<hyperair> =)
<mvo> Riddell: bug #444979 seems to be relatively frequent on kubuntu upgrades :/ I get it here in my test machine too
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 444979 in fuse "fuse-utils postinst fails" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/444979
<SteveA> has something changed in ssh timeouts for karmic?
<SteveA> I'm getting idle ssh connections closed, and they weren't doing that a few weeks ago
<pitti> Good morning
<soren> cjwatson: If I have suggestions for       * Colin (I just helped a bit) interviewed all the members of ~motu that are not ~ubuntu-core-dev yet and asked which future permissions they need.
<soren> Whoops.
<soren> Gah..
<soren> cjwatson: If I have suggestions for http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/packagesets, what do I do?
<soren> cjwatson: Just tell you here or is this tracked somewhere else where I can propose it?
<cjwatson> soren: preferably not at all, they're automatically generated from seeds
<cjwatson> I don't ever want to be maintaining that by hand, and I wish that Daniel had not advertised it
<cjwatson> people are not supposed to need to look at that directly - it's an intermediate file
<soren> cjwatson: Ah, sorry.
<cjwatson> there are tools to look at the sets in Launchpad, which we should brush up and make easier to use
<cjwatson> try lp:ubuntu-archive-tools, you can use edit_acl.py for this
<soren> cjwatson: So.. Although they're based on something called seeds, this is different from the current seeds, right? If I propose adding a package to ubuntu-server, will that change anything in terms of expected support level, or is it simply about upload rights?
<cjwatson> can I get back to you about this later please?
<soren> Certainly.
<cjwatson> briefly, though, there is only one meaning of "seeds" involved here
<soren> I'll ping you later. Forget about it.
<Mamarok> hi, I just added a comment to this bug report, seems there is a hard limitation to a max. of 1024 open files that causes crashes on various applications needing databases: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/417025
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 417025 in ubuntu "CRON stacks processes and system eventually becomes unresponsive due to too many open files" [Undecided,New]
<Mamarok> Riddell: seb128 I subscribed you both since it affects both KDE and Gnome apps AFAICT
<seb128> Mamarok, I've no clue about that issue but that doesn't seem a GNOME bug
<ogra> lifeless, it's true ... we only support armv6 and above with karmic, the gcc default config is set to build with armv6 and vfp
<Tm_T> ogra: hmm, wasn't it that way before too?
<ogra> Tm_T, jaunty was v5 and only a selected bunch of packages was compiled with vfp (libc etc ..)
<Tm_T> roger
 * Tm_T is with v4 device so wouldn't notice any difference (;
<pitti> ScottK: there are still two universe uploads in the queue; do you still think they are fine to go in? or should they be rejected and become SRUs?
<slangasek> pitti: ScottK has re-delegated those decisions to us
<slangasek> pitti: I only see one universe package in the -release queue, though
<pitti> ah, lmms is -proposed, right
<Chipzz> Mamarok: your assertion that that is a hard limit is false
<Chipzz> since it can be configured
<Chipzz> add a value for fs.file-max in /etc/sysctl.conf (http://www.faqs.org/docs/securing/chap6sec72.html)
<Chipzz> Mamarok: may I suggest you do your homework properly next time? ;P
<dholbach> pitti: bug 429322 has A LOT of duplicates
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 429322 in seahorse-plugins "seahorse-agent assert failure: ERROR:iop-profiles.c:606:IOP_generate_profiles: assertion failed: (obj && (obj->profile_list == NULL) && obj->orb)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/429322
<dholbach> looks like a new record :)
<pitti> 158 dups? hmm, could be
<YokoZar> hyperair: probably, I'm not sure if there's an established standard as it is
<hyperair> YokoZar: alright then
<dholbach> pitti: I personally think it might be just something that happens during shutdown
<joaopinto> does anyone know the bug nr for the unuable VTs ?
<dholbach> pitti: and apport popping up on next login
<pitti> dholbach: yeah, I guess we'd have noticed much earlier if it was genuinely broken; I guess pretty much every developer on gnome will use that
<joaopinto> unusable
<dholbach> pitti: how does the traceback look to you?
<dholbach> it didn't seem to be much to do with seahorse-plugins? something changed in gtk dealing with iconsets and stuff?
<pitti> it doesn't tell me anything, I'm afraid
<pitti> I'll ask Robert about it
<dholbach> pitti: maybe we can make pedro_ fix bug 429322
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 429322 in seahorse-plugins "seahorse-agent assert failure: ERROR:iop-profiles.c:606:IOP_generate_profiles: assertion failed: (obj && (obj->profile_list == NULL) && obj->orb)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/429322
<dholbach> I'm sure he can do it
<pitti> dholbach: I assigned it to robert_ancell for now; if you think that pedro can, feel free to reassign ;)
<pedro_> dholbach, pitti I'm not *too* sure about that :-P
<seb128> dholbach, crashes in iconset functions are usually corruptions
<pedro_> dholbach, i'll fix it if you give me the patch, sure :-)
<seb128> dholbach, ie need valgrind
<seb128> pedro_, and by fix you mean assign the bug to me for reviewing the changes?
<seb128> and upload too
<pedro_> seb128, you got it ;-)
<seb128> lol
<dholbach> :-)
<kevix1> I was compiling a program on jaunty, I ran the configure script and the script said some file was not present. but I checked the script and it was looking for the file only if it was '-x'. the file was present but not '-x'. So I chmod +x the file, and this make the configure script finish. should the file /usr/lib/libSDL_ttf* be +x? if so, I should file a bug?
<cjwatson> libraries should not normally be +x. sounds like a configure script bug
<cjwatson> (libc is an exception to this, before you say :-) )
<kevix1> oh. the famously red-haired cj watson. wow, that is great service :)
<kevix1> ok. that was my inclination.
<tordne> @jstrand: hey JStrand, last time you answered me on my problem for apparmor
<tordne> @jstrand: after two days looking on internet i just uninstalled it
<tordne> @jstrand: I just wanted to try again and as you said it wasn't include in my /boot/config.2.6.* file
<tordne> so I searched in the other config files and just copied the few lines from apparmor in the file currently used
<tordne> now after restarting it said that the module was loaded
<tordne> @jstrand: so thanks for the tip
<jdstrand> tordne: great :)
<snth> I changed the label for my SWAP partition and made sure to change it in /etc/fstab. However, after I reboot the kernel says that it can't resume from "the old-label" .. but everything else works fine.
<snth> Does anyone know where is this old label at? How can I change it?
<soren> snth: /etc/initramfs/conf.d/resume, I would guess.
<ScottK> doko_: Do we need to worry about having misbuilt packages in the archive due to 461303?
<doko_> ScottK: if packages directly code asm, using intel syntax, yes. I doubt these are many
<ScottK> I suppose no easy way to find out?
<doko_> you could search for .intel_syntax
<ScottK> Now if only I had an local mirror...
<doko_> maybe mvo can help, I think he has some scripts
<Mamarok> Chipzz: sorry, had to run
<Mamarok> also, you probalby misread what I said
<Mamarok> Chipzz: just because one can confugre it, doesn't mean the default is set correctly, and it definitely is too low, check the number of crash reports with that error message
<markey> ahoy
<mvo> bug #461303
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461303 in binutils "generates-bad-code regression" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461303
<Chipzz> the bug-report doesn't even mention that it's about the default
<kees> doko_: I can do that search
<Chipzz> you say: this doesn't work, it's a bug.
<Chipzz> which it isn't, it's a default that doesn't happen to work for you
<Mamarok> Chipzz: that is not my report, I added a comment, read that
<mvo> doko_, ScottK: I can create a script that crawles the archive for this, but I expect it will take a very long time to complete
<kees> mvo, doko_, ScottK: I have a local mirror, existing scripts, and 4 CPUs.  I'll have it in about an hour.
<mvo> cool, thanks kees
<ScottK> kees: Excellent.
<markey> Chipzz: may I suggest that you think before writing?
<markey> I hear that helps
<markey> just because you can change it doesn't make it a good default
<markey> or sane in any way
<markey> 1024 was a good default.. 1995
<markey> computers have changed, our use cases have changed
<Chipzz> markey: say what?
<Chipzz> markey: may I suggest YOU think before writing?
<markey> go ahead
<Chipzz> markey: ubuntu can be installed as a desktop, as a server, as a mythtv backend/frontend...
<Mamarok> Chipzz: you can't expect all users to know how to change that or even to know why their applications crash
<Mamarok> and we talk about dektop applications that everybody uses, noobs
<Chipzz> there is no such thing as one default which works for everyone of those use-cases, so the ubuntu devs probably choose the one which consumed the least resources by default
<Mamarok> Chipzz: you one of these devs?
<Chipzz> no, but I have substantial experience with debian and ubuntu, and have done quite a bit of unofficial packaging
<Mamarok> Chipzz: *sigh*
<Chipzz> actually I'm going to correct myself here
<Chipzz> the 1024 default isn't even a default chosen by the ubuntu devs, it is the default which originates from the kernel
<Keybuk> 1024 is the default for what?
<Chipzz> Mamarok: and for the record, I just reread your report. Unless my reading comprehension is failing me, you do not mention this is about a default
<Chipzz> Keybuk: maximum number of open files
<Keybuk> if any software considers that a limit, that's a bug in the software
<Chipzz> Keybuk: fs.max-file sysctl
<Keybuk> Chipzz: has nothing to do with that value ;)
<Mamarok> Keybuk: it is the default value in Ubuntu, and this is defintely too low for software that uses databases
<Keybuk> Mamarok: then file bugs upstream on those pieces of software for not handling -ENOFILE properly
<Keybuk> 1024 is a soft limit, the hard limit is over 1,000 times higher
<Keybuk> apps are quite free to raise their own limit
<Chipzz> Keybuk: Mamarok was claiming this was a hard limit, not me :)
<Mamarok> Chipzz: I never did, I just said the default value was too low
<slangasek> and what kind of database requires more than 1024 file descriptors?
<Chipzz> Mamarok: you most certainly did
<slangasek> A large database /engine/, perhaps, with dozens of dbs, but you don't say that
<Keybuk> /proc/sys/fs/nr_open contains the hard limit
<Chipzz> 10:25 < Mamarok> hi, I just added a comment to this bug report, seems there is a hard limitation to a max. of 1024 open files that causes crashes on various applications needing databases:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/417025
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 417025 in ubuntu "CRON stacks processes and system eventually becomes unresponsive due to too many open files" [Undecided,New]
<Keybuk> the default soft limit is "low" to stop buggy software from consuming vast amounts of kernel memory by opening files
<Mamarok> well, wrong wording on my side then, still the default value is too low IMHO
<Keybuk> the fact that your software fails to handle the returned errno certainly classifies it as buggy
<Chipzz> Keybuk: am I misreading http://www.faqs.org/docs/securing/chap6sec72.html then? "The file-max file /proc/sys/fs/file-max sets the maximum number of file-handles that the Linux kernel will allocate. We generally tune this file to improve the number of open files by increasing the value of /proc/sys/fs/file-max to something reasonable..."
<Keybuk> Mamarok: in my very un-humble opinion, the limit is perfect
<slangasek> Chipzz: what does 'cat /proc/sys/fs/file-max' say on your system?
<Chipzz> chipzz@sophos:~$ cat /proc/sys/fs/file-max
<Chipzz> 101699
<slangasek> that's distinctly not 1024
<Keybuk> Chipzz: that number gets a bit randomly set ;)
<slangasek> the only limit that's 1024 is the soft ulimit
<Chipzz> not sure if that's the default though, but only ubuntu box I have access to right away ;)
<slangasek> so as Keybuk says, it's an application bug
<Chipzz> chipzz@sophos:~$ ulimit -n
<Chipzz> 1024
<Keybuk> that's still a soft limit ;)
<Chipzz> yeah, just saying where the 1024 value comes from
<slangasek> Chipzz: the default for file-max is calculated by the kernel taking the size of your available memory and shooting cosmic rays at it
<Chipzz> cosmic rays uh? :)
<slangasek> yes, to randomly flip bits
<Chipzz> slangasek: is there actually a way of setting the default soft-limit for non-login shells?
<slangasek> depends on what it is that you're trying to set a limit on
<slangasek> if it's cron as the bug title suggests, then /etc/pam.d/cron already calls pam_limits
<slangasek> so /etc/security/limits.conf is your friend
<Chipzz> slangasek: general daemons started at bootup
 * Mamarok should probably have filed a separate bug, then...
<Chipzz> slangasek: I've run into a problem where a daemon like nginx requires more than the default number of handles, and I can't get it to work out of he box
<Chipzz> slangasek: well, the problem is more: make sure it works without restarting the daemon. because if I log in to the box, make sure ulimit is set corectly etc, and restart the daemon, it gets the correct values. just never when booting
<slangasek> Chipzz: usually a 'ulimit' call in the init script; upstart jobs also support setting ulimits with a 'limit' directive; I don't think trying to change the soft limit system-wide is the right way to address this
<Chipzz> which results in having to manually log in after each reboot
<Chipzz> slangasek: hacky :S
<slangasek> no
<Chipzz> slangasek: hacking an init script to include a call to ulimit is sth I'ld rather avoid ;)
<slangasek> then convert it to an upstart job
<slangasek> or fix the daemon to do something sensible on its own
<Chipzz> slangasek: actually this is on a debian system so I guess off-topic for this chan ;)
<Keybuk> limit nofile 1048576 1048576
<Keybuk> upstart ftw
<slangasek> Chipzz: upstart, coming soon to a Debian release near you
<Chipzz> slangasek: oh? debian converting to upstart too?
<Mamarok> just so you know, guys, there are roughly 20 open bugs on Launchpad that all refer to that very problem
<Chipzz> I must have missed the memo ;)
<kees> doko_: here is main: http://pastebin.osuosl.org/29735  universe is still running
<slangasek> Chipzz: once a compatibility mode is available for the non-Linux ports
<doko_> kees: none of these were built after the binutils upload, and binutils itself is a false positive (testsuite)
<kees> sure, I think gccxml is a false positive too (it just emits it, doesn't use it itself)
<kees> I'm getting a lot more hits in universe.  up to "r" currently.
<tordne> tordne
<kees> doko_: http://pastebin.osuosl.org/29738 universe
<kees> doko_: no hits in multiverse
<doko_> kees: what do you mean by "hits"?
<kees> doko_: no file in the contents of a source package in multiverse contained ".intel_syntax"
<doko_> ahh, did misread this for universe.
<doko_> ScottK: well, then just check the list to see if any of those was uploaded after binutils 20091014 did enter the archive
<ScottK> Will do.
<ScottK> doko_ and kees: If the bad binutils will cause a bad build of binutils, how do we fix it?
<ScottK> Since that's the first one on the list ....
 * kees doesn't know about that
<doko_> ScottK: these are false positives (the testsuite has test cases)
<ScottK> doko_: Good to hear.
 * ScottK relaxes
<ScottK> doko_ and kees: Main is clear.
<doko_> ScottK: yes, I checked for that, just not universe
<ScottK> doko_ and kees: Universe is clear too.  Closest hit was two days before.
<ScottK> kees: Thanks for doing the search.
<kees> ScottK: sure, no problemo
<cjwatson> ScottK: should such a thing happen, we'd produce temporary build chroots with an older binutils put on hold, and push through a binutils build
<ScottK> cjwatson: Thanks.
<rbrito> Hi there.
<rbrito> Is there anything that can be done to get live CDs for the ports?
<rbrito> Especially regarding powerpc?
<rbrito> Some of the ports' CDs have not been auto-built for some time now. :-(
<rbrito> And I would sincerely love to have a new operating system for my iBook G3.
<rbrito> If anybody needs a hand, I'm here to help a little bit. I'm a Debian Maintainer, if that means anything.
<rbrito> And I care about the PowerPC platform.
<rbrito> (Actually, I care about some of what people would treat as second-class citizens).
<rbrito> I've been keeping an eye on the live images for PowerPC and it seems that both Ubuntu, Kubuntu, and Xubuntu images are oversized.
<rbrito> Also, the non-live images are oversized.
<sebner> rbrito: hasn't ubuntu dropped ppc support? So nobody cares for oversized stuff, be happy that you can find that stuff still ^^
<rbrito> BTW, talking about ports, are the ports archives mirrored?
<Riddell> rbrito: I fear you are too late for this cycle, there's less than a day until release.  but in general people to test the images and fix whatever the issues are with them are welcome
<rbrito> Riddell, I've filed at least one bug some days ago.
<Riddell> rbrito: very few developers currently care about powerpc, I think it needs someone to fix the bugs rather than just report them
<rbrito> sebner, As I understood it, the ports support would be offered on a best-effort basis.
<ccheney> wow garmin is taking a beating from google today
<sebner> rbrito:  well official supported ports != ports available
<rbrito> Riddell, any pointers for how the images are auto-built?
<rbrito> sebner, Thanks, I know that.
<ScottK> rbrito: For this cycle the images are what they are.  It's acutally a testement to work on ports that there are live CD images at all.  It's been several releases since we managed that.
<Riddell> rbrito: there are seeds at launchpad.net/ubuntu-seeds which create the meta packages of what should go on the CDs.  CDs are built with cdimage (also somewhere in launchpad)
<ScottK> They should work OK if you burn them on a dvd.
<rbrito> Riddell, Thanks for the pointer. I didn't know about the modus operandi of creation of Ubuntu images.
<rbrito> ScottK, no DVD reader here on my iBook.
<rbrito> Anyway, I'm offering some man-hours, if that's welcome. :-)
<rbrito> I'd be glad to contribute in one way or another.
<rbrito> Even if it doesn't make it the 9.10 release.
<rbrito> (Say, if it made it to the first point release, I would be happy).
<slangasek> there are no point releases of 9.10
<ScottK> rbrito: We can work on it for 10.04 though.
<ScottK> rbrito: Can your iBook boot to USB?
<rbrito> slangasek, so, things are different regarding to Debian, vorlon?
<slangasek> rbrito: sure, a release every 6 months is different from Debian
<rbrito> ScottK, I think that I can, but I will have to mess with Open Firmware...
<rbrito> slangasek, I had the impression that Ubuntu had point releases. Is that only for your long term releases?
<ScottK> I've no idea about Mac stuff, but you can burn the image to a USB card/stick.
<ScottK> rbrito: That's correct.  Only LTS
<rbrito> ScottK, right. Nice to know about it.
<rbrito> (And, BTW, I'm not only worried about Macs, but also about Linux running on some embedded computers, but I guess that this is completely out-of-scope for Ubuntu).
<ScottK> We have only one or two developers that even have PowerPC hardware, so we need all the help we can get.
<rbrito> ScottK, great. I'd be willing to help with that.
<rbrito> I'm mostly doing things in Debian...
<ScottK> rbrito: TheMuso is the guy to talk to then.
<rbrito> Great. I will talk to Luke, then.
<ScottK> He's in .au, so probably sleeping unless my TZ math is off
<rbrito> ScottK, I'm in .br, which is -0200 now.
<rbrito> (Daylight Savings Time)
<rbrito> Well, I think that I'll install ubuntu the hard way, then (a minimal businesscard with wired connection and then a straight side-grade to Ubuntu).
<rbrito> Well, thanks for your comments. So, for starters, I should check the ubuntu-seeds part of launchpad?
<rbrito> OK. Thanks for all the comments.
<rbrito> I'm going now.
<jcastro> Keybuk: is there a way to replicate a day's slots for the rest of the week in summit? Or am I doomed to make them all by hand?
<Keybuk> jcastro: only by SQL
<jcastro> Keybuk: what would it cost me for you to do that for me. It will take me forever to do the rest of the days. :(
<jcastro> name your price sire.
<slangasek> asac: hmm, bug #455045> if a user screws up their /etc/network/interfaces and comments out lo, would NM do anything with it?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 455045 in portmap "nfs-kernel-server doesn't start automatically at startup" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/455045
<ebroder> So, uh, now that Karmic is spinning down, anybody from ubuntu-sru willing to take a look at bug #330766?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 330766 in pulseaudio "pulseaudio hangs, prevents login, home as ntfs" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/330766
<jdong> when is the big magical archive reorg due to happen?
<ebroder> We've had a tested patch for about 2.5 months now...
<asac> slangasek: the idea is that NM ups lo
<slangasek> asac: ... uh.
<asac> yes
<asac> the code is still there
<slangasek> blah
<slangasek> and does NM hook into upstart, to emit net-device-up events?
<slangasek> (or does it hook into /etc/network/if-up.d?)
<jdong> ebroder: fastest way is probably to capture a core-dev sponsor and shove it into the -proposed queue ;-)
<asac> if-up.d but loopback might be special
<ebroder> jdong: I...can do that?
<asac> oh
<asac> slangasek: heh
<asac> ok so the Debian backend runs /sbin/ifup lo ...
<asac> :/
<asac> so yeah
<jdong> ebroder: there's never been explicit declaration whether the SRU ACK comes before the upload or vice-versa. In universe I prefer the former as it's easier to review, but for -main the SRU guys overlap quite a bit with those managing the queue anyway
<asac> slangasek: so what behaviour do we want from NM?
<ebroder> I see. In, uh, that case, any core-devs willing to upload the SRU fix for bug #330766? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 330766 in pulseaudio "pulseaudio hangs, prevents login, home as ntfs" [Unknown,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/330766
<asac> isnt it right to not up "lo" if there is no configuration in interfaces? otherwise you cannot opt-out at all anymore
<slangasek> asac: what do you mean, opt out?
<asac> comment "lo"
<asac> in interfaces
<slangasek> if someone does that, why should NM do anything?
<slangasek> anyway, my real question here is: is NM bringing up the interface in a way that /etc/init/portmap.conf doesn't see it
<asac> slangasek: it runs /sbin/ifup lo
<slangasek> why does it do that at all?  /etc/init/networking.conf will already do that
<slangasek> (and if lo is missing from /etc/network/interfaces, what is 'ifup lo' supposed to get you?)
<ScottK> kees: New clamav release is out with (AFAICT) no security fixes in it.
<kees> ScottK: ok
<mvo> Riddell: can I help with bug #459471 in any way? I would love to get it into -proposed asap, otherwise I see more triage work for upgrade failures coming my way
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 459471 in kdebindings "[Karmic] update-manager-kde: conffile prompt/error during upgrade cause crash" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/459471
<Riddell> mvo: just looking at it now
<mvo> cool, many thanks Riddell
<Riddell> mvo: I think this should do it http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~kubuntu-members/kdebindings/ubuntu/revision/64
<mvo> Riddell: cool, thanks. -proposed is ready for uploading, I can do a test upgrade from a ppa as well to ensure the fix works (tomorrow morning)
<hdon> hi all. for some reason when i use valgrind --db-attach=yes, i get no debugging symbols when the debugger attaches. the backtrace is just ????. is that a known problem on jaunty?
<Riddell> mvo: uploading then
<mvo> Riddell: thanks
<jmadgin> hi there! I've just come over from a convo with videolan channel, they told me you guys may be able to help! since i upgradfrom 9.04 to 9.10 my avi's dont seem to work in movie player or vlc. I checked the readout from vlc diagnostic and it said the encoder couldnt be found. I checked the encoder in synaptic and its there?
<jmadgin> i'm tearing my hair out trying to fix this, any advice?
<ebroder> What time will Karmic release, again? Is it midnight GMT "tonight" or "tomorrow night"?
<jmadgin> dont kno
<sebner> ebroder: when it's ready ;)
<ebroder> sebner: "Will that be before or after Perl 6 and Mailman 3?" :-P
<sebner> ebroder: tomorrow :P
<DGMurdockIII> whats that tool that in ubuntu that run a system test then send the info back to the ubuntu dev
<beuno> DGMurdockIII, I think it's called checkbox
<DGMurdockIII> is that the tool the is built in to the the ubuntu os with te gui and everthing
<DGMurdockIII> it used to be somthing else
<ScottK> ubuntu-bug
<ScottK> ubuntu-bug <packagename>
<cjwatson> ebroder: we've never promised midnight, although people routinely get confused and think we have
<cjwatson> it's, furthermore, never been anywhere especially close to midnight
<slangasek> cjwatson: there's a LP bug that misleads people into thinking we do
<slangasek> due dates are entered as dates and exit as timestamps
<davmor2> cjwatson: in fact hardy was half way through the party wasn't it :D
 * joaopinto brings some beer
<cjwatson> slangasek: yeah
<cjwatson> slangasek: I just have trouble believing that all the people who think it's midnight have picked it up from LP
<slangasek> I don't :)
<ajmitch> word of mouth spreads these vicious rumours a long way :)
<slangasek> cjwatson: particularly when https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic says "Expected in 24 minutes" :)
<cjwatson> that doesn't help, true
<mathiaz> kees: so I've doing some more testing with the RAID1 install
<mathiaz> kees: Is there a reason why the array would reassemble itself automatically?
<mathiaz> kees: use case: boot the system with one drive only.
<mathiaz> kees: boot the system with the other drive only.
<mathiaz> kees: boot the system with both drives again - RAID array are automatically rebuilt
<mathiaz> kees: http://paste.ubuntu.com/303896/
<mathiaz> kees: this^^ is after the last reboot
<slangasek> mathiaz: shouldn't happen if both bits of the array have been written to separately, but were they?
<mathiaz> slangasek: hm - I added a file to one of the degraded array
<mathiaz> slangasek: but haven't touched the other degraded array
<mathiaz> slangasek: I'm retesting and make sure that both degraded array will diverge
<slangasek> mathiaz: so if nothing touched the other one (which would be unlikely with current filesystems, but) - the kernel has enough info to tell which one is out-of-date
<kees> mathiaz: depends on the ordering.
<kees> mathiaz: in some situations the raid will rebuild
<mathiaz> kees: what surprises me is that it's done *automatically*
<kees> mathiaz: if one or the other device had newer time stamps or something, I think it'll abort the re-build
<kees> mathiaz: that's why the default is to _not_ boot a degraded array.  ;)
<mathiaz> kees: ok - so now I've booted the guest twice - each time with a degraded array
<mathiaz> kees: and created a different file with different content each time
<mathiaz> kees: and the guest is reconfigured to have *both* drives enabled
<mathiaz> kees: if I boot the system what should happen?
<kees> mathiaz: you booted each drive separately with the other out of the system?
<mathiaz> kees: yes
<mathiaz> kees: ie drive commented out in the libvirt file and redefined each time
<kees> ok, in theory, if you boot now with both drives in, you will boot from whichever drive udev mounts first, and the raid will refuse to add the second drive.
<slangasek> it should allow you to boot in degraded mode if configured to do so, but not reassemble the array, right
<kees> slangasek: right
 * mathiaz boots the guest to confront theory with practice
<kees> slangasek: actually, it'll boot even if you don't want degraded boot since it's a misnomer with MD RAIDs.  we should call this option "unexpected raid state".
<kees> if you booted degraded once, md is back in an expected (though degraded) state, and will boot fine next time, since nothing "changed".
<slangasek> ah
<kees> we had this debate in intrepid.  oh the pain
<slangasek> I was blissfully out of earshot :-)
<mathiaz> kees: http://paste.ubuntu.com/303903/ - :(
<kees> mathiaz: ok, cool, so it did an auto sync
<kees> mathiaz: that's okay too, but is the reason degraded-boot is not the default.  the system cannot answer the question "which drive is best?" in all cases.
<mathiaz> kees: yeah - with the earliest degraded filesystem
 * kees nods
<slangasek> kees: in the case he's described, both drives are dirty, it /shouldn't/ answer the question "which drive is best?" there...
#ubuntu-devel 2009-10-29
<mathiaz> kees: ok - so it's just random in which drives will be picked up to assemble the drive
<mathiaz> kees: what I don't understand is why it decided to auto-sync
<kees> mathiaz: I doubt it's random, but I haven't investigated the mdadm logic that surrounds the choices.
<kees> mathiaz: because it identified both drives as belonging to the same RAID, I assume.
<kees> mathiaz: but yes, this is why it is a potentially dangerous situation.
<kees> that said, there is value for some folks to have their system boot no matter what
<mathiaz> kees: right - I don't question that.
<mathiaz> kees: so that is not a regression from jaunty?
<kees> mathiaz: I don't think so, no.
<kees> mathiaz: it might make an interesting exercise to map the behavior of every failure flow.
<mathiaz> kees: what does "md1 : inactive sda2[0](S)" mean?
<mathiaz> kees: the (S) status particularly?
<mathiaz> kees: I get that once I boot with a degraded md1 array - and swap isn't mounted anymore
<kees> mathiaz: hrm
<kees> "stopped" I think
 * kees checks
<mathiaz> kees: you're right
<kees> ah, where'd you find it?
<mathiaz> kees: doing a mdadm manage --run /dev/md1 makes it work again :)
<kees> ah, no, I lied, it means "spare".
<kees> $ fgrep '(S)' *
<kees> md.c:				seq_printf(seq, "(S)"); /* spare */
<mathiaz> kees: so sda1 was treated a spare drive?
<mathiaz> kees: s/sda1/sda2/
<kees> right, iiuc, the array was stopped, and there was a single disk.  since it's not active, it's spare.
<kees> (disk is in good shape, online, and has the md uuid)
<mathiaz> kees: hm - what could have made it stopped?
<mathiaz> kees: I've never manually stopped any of the array
<kees> never getting the second drive, I assume
<mathiaz> kees: hm - so md1 is used for swap
<mathiaz> kees: while md0 is used for /
<kees> mathiaz: this is the other case of degraded: the missing drive does _not_ come back on its own
<mathiaz> kees: I think I saw that when I booted in degraded mode
<kees> you'll need to  mdadm -a /dev/md1 /dev/sdb2   to get it back  (assuming sdb2 is the missing drive)
<mathiaz> kees: I guess that md0 is forced to run when I said to boot in degraded mode
<kees> yeah
<mathiaz> kees: but md1 is not - which leads to swap not beeing mounted when booted from a degraded raid
<kees> the degraded raid stuff is strictly for the rootfs
 * kees nods
<kees> same is true for other partitions.
<kees> it's still-to-be-implemented.
<mathiaz> kees: ok - and stopped raid array are persistent accross reboot
<kees> mathiaz: something in md does appear to "remember" a stopped state, yes.
<mathiaz> kees: allright then. All of this makes senses then.
<kees> mathiaz: *whew*  :)
<mathiaz> kees: the only bug I've found is bug 462258
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462258 in mdadm "installer's boot-degraded debconf answer not written to installed disk" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462258
<mathiaz> kees: which is only happening in the install
 * kees nods
<kees> I would agree after playing with raid this afternoon
<mathiaz> kees: doing a dpkg-reconfigure mdadm and choosing to boot from the degraded array correctly sets the option in the initramfs configuration fiule
<kees> right
<mathiaz> kees: that's gonna make the release note even easier - after installation run dpkg-reconfigure mdadm and select *again* the option to boot from a degraded mode
<kees> yeah
<kees> sounds right to me
<mathiaz> kees: release note updated in bug 462258
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462258 in mdadm "installer's boot-degraded debconf answer not written to installed disk" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462258
<mathiaz> kees: thanks for explaining all the raid stuff
<kees> mathiaz: you bet!  thanks for testing it.  :)
<d0htem> i just saw this posted . no idea if its a fake
<d0htem> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5139359
<d0htem> thought id report it
<Hellow> Meh, leave it. Lets see how many idiots download it before they realize they can get it on ubuntu.com too.
<ebroder> Huh - are those the finals?
<Hellow> ...actually, if I can remember my TPB login, I'll comment on it.
<joaopinto> it was not officially release, so there is not final at this time
<joaopinto> released
<d0htem> k sorry to waste ur time
<slangasek> mathiaz: bug #462258> release note finalized now/
<slangasek> ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462258 in mdadm "installer's boot-degraded debconf answer not written to installed disk" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462258
<mathiaz> slangasek: yes
<slangasek> ok
<mathiaz> slangasek: it's good to go
<cjwatson> plars: can I have the output of (a) 'sudo /usr/lib/base-installer/dmi-available-memory' and (b) 'sudo dmidecode' for the system in bug 462865, please?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462865 in ubuntu-moblin-remix "moblin-remix fails to boot after install (dup-of: 462692)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462865
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462692 in ubiquity "Ubiquity does not finish installation on PAE kernels" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462692
<cjwatson> the dup is right, but I'd like to work out why it hit the PAE codepath
<cjwatson> ara's system in 462692 just has plain buggy DMI information, as far as I can see
<cjwatson> if such bugginess is widespread on devices where people might install moblin-remix, then I think we perhaps ought to respin that too
<slangasek> lool was ambivalent on a respin; I've launched one now, with the DVDs out of the way
<lool> Thanks
<slangasek> should be up for testing in < 30min
<plars> cjwatson: I just got home, gotta chase my kids to bed and then I can get it for you
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> installing the PAE kernel is not a fatal error in and of itself; it's only fatal in combination with this other bug
<cjwatson> so we can tune that at relative leisure
<cjwatson> if you do have broken DMI information, Evan and I were just discussing a possible improved heuristic
<lool> plars: ^ the idea is to have more robust DMI parsing
<cjwatson> specifically we were thinking that we really only need to resort to DMI parsing at all if /proc/meminfo claims that you have 3GB (maximum supported by the -generic kernel)
<cjwatson> or perhaps within some threshold of that, to account for stolen video memory or whatever
<slangasek> plars, lool, cjwatson: moblin respin posted
<lool> Thanks got it
<plars> hmm, I just tried and nothing new
<slangasek> plars: the image is there, availability for rsync/zsync is not exactly under my control... I just have the "ask the mirrors to get it" button
<plars> cjwatson: I have the new (fixed) unr booted on that box now, I don't need to be booted into the broken version of moblin or anything right?
<plars> slangasek: gotcha
<slangasek> plars: booted> any image is fine, they all use the same kernel
<plars> slangasek: figured as much, just wanted to make sure, thanks :)
<plars> cjwatson, lool: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/303967
<lool> plars: mind aattaching to the bug?
<plars> lool: will do
<lool> Oddly it did believe you had less than 3 GB hmm
<plars> lool: yes, I saw
<lool> plars: Ah but that's the fixed one?
<lool> I think they care about the long output; but at lesat we know latest version should work for you now
<plars> lool: attached
<lool> plars: thanks
<Guest11603> got a ubuntu 8.10 question got an answer
<Chipzz> Guest11603: this isn't a support channel; pls read the topic
<porthose> Guest11603, please use #ubuntu for support questions
<Roey> hello all
<Roey> I've been referred there by Riddell about this issue I'm having after having installed Karmic (64-bit) on my raid1 system.
<Roey> I used the standard CD (I assembled the array and mounted the drives off a livecd, then started the install process and specified /dev/md0 and /dev/md1 for /boot and /, respectively)
<Roey> I installed the 64-bit Karmic 9.10 dailybuild from 20091027 or so
<Roey> On bootup, the kernel dumps me to a busybox/ash shell after complaining it cannot find /.  This comes off a stock installation of Kubuntu 9.10 (karmic koala).  I have the output of 'blkid' and contents of 'grub.cfg' right here:  http://pastebin.com/f6efcbf2c
<Roey> I use softraid1; /dev/md0 hosts  /boot and /dev/md1 hosts /.     And I used the standard CD (I assembled the array and mounted the drives off a livecd, then started the install process and specified /dev/md0 and /dev/md1 for /boot and /, respectively)
<Roey> Riddell: oh hey :)
<nemesis> are there problems with the Mailinglist?
<nemesis> "Your membership in the mailing list ubuntu-devel has been disabled due to excessive bounces"
<ScottK> It's been fixed.
<nemesis> k, thx
<pitti> Good morning
<StevenK> Morning pitti
<zim22> people! when 9.10 will be available for download?
<ebroder> When it's ready
<dupondje> somewhere today
<zim22> ebroder, but i've seen graphical countdown before. yesterday there was 1 day left. but today there is label "Coming soon"
<ebroder> It'll be ready when it's ready, and that's when it'll be released
<ebroder> And it will be ready some time today
<zim22> > it will be ready some time today            ** cool! I can't wait :)
<dupondje> install the release candidate then ...
<dupondje> :)
<zim22> dupondje, no. i want final version. because my internet speed is sucks. and I can't download anything I want
<zim22> yet another question: ubuntu and Kubuntu will be available at the same time? or kubuntu later?
<dupondje> same time
<dupondje> or at least both today
<dupondje> anyway
<dupondje> gtg
<dholbach> is it out yet^W^W^W^Wgood morning!
<Hobbsee> morning!
<dholbach> hi Hobbsee
<mvo> hey dholbach
<dholbach> hey mvo
<mneptok> anyone want to make some money? i have a murder for hire i need done.
 * mneptok hates salespeople suits
<pitti> mneptok: we could offer to let their data center go haywire, would that work, too?
<mneptok> pitti: no, as i'm on the sysadmin team :/
<ttx> pitti: add it on releases.ubuntu.com dns rotation ?
<mneptok> the ricochet would kill me, too
<Bombbum> I have found a bug
<Bombbum> a massive one that could delay the release of 9.10
<mneptok> Bombbum: then you should report it via Launchpad.
<joaopinto> Bombbum, if it was massive you not be the first one reporting it, not at this time :)
<joaopinto> you would
<Bombbum> the problem IS
<Bombbum> WHEN i press open on my cup holder....it wont balance my cup
<Hobbsee> oh noez
 * davmor2 loads shootgun
<davmor2> Bombbum: please say something else fun ;)
<mneptok> Bombbum: i have fixed that problem by holding down the power button on my machine for 5 seconds. try that.
<Bombbum> mneptok: i tried that but everytime I do my penis gets hard, any ideas?
<spaetz> then you got a serious problem ... :)
<mneptok> and that's the end of that chapter.
<al-maisan_> mneptok: good job :)
<spaetz> thanks
<mneptok> release day is like the full moon of the Ubuntu world.
<highvoltage> hmm, that might explain why I've gone so hairy
<asac> hmm. some user says they use a tmpfs for /var ... does that make any sense?
<asac> i thought that /var would be required to be persistent ... or am i just confused ;)?
<slangasek> asac: using a tmpfs for /var is Wrong
<slangasek> /var/run or /var/cache, ok
<asac> thanks for confirming ;)
<slangasek> /var/tmp, technically wrong but probably won't break anything on the system
<asac> yeah. thats what i thought
<slangasek> /var/lib -> you might want to keep your package database
<seb128> asac, we got a gdm bug where user is using a tmpfs for /var/log to prevent ssd damage from what he wrote
<seb128> not sure why logs should be an issue for ssd disks though
<syn-ack> because its consistent writing
<syn-ack> then if you rotate logs... yeah.. in theory it wont end pretty
<seb128> well it's consistent writting in your user dir too
<syn-ack> Ture
<syn-ack> true too. Ya know what... you win this one... only this one though. :P
<seb128> lol
<syn-ack> Been too long a day. ;)
<liw> asac, re tmpfs for /var: why not just run off a livecd and mount /home on top of that?
<joaopinto> about tmpfs, why aren't we using tmpfs for /tmp ?
<joaopinto> oh, discussed a long time ago, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2004-September/000965.html
<liw> joaopinto, five years ago... might be reasonable to revisit this :)
<joaopinto> "At any rate, we won't be changing this for Warty so close to release.  It's
<joaopinto> something to consider for the future.
<joaopinto> " -mdz
<joaopinto> :P
 * liw points out that this is an excellent time to start making blueprints for the next UDS
<cjwatson> joaopinto: it was already discussed for karmic, but we ran into kernel difficulties
<cjwatson> bug 386554
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 386554 in linux "System behaved as if OOM when it had plenty to spare" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/386554
<joaopinto> hum, that bug does not mention tmpfs
<cjwatson> joaopinto: nevertheless
<joaopinto> ah ok, got priority
<liw> slangasek, is there still time for uploading a new package to karmic?
<liw> slangasek, I could free an hour and finally rewrite the kernel in Python
<slangasek> trolleth not the release manager
<slangasek> wtf, why is something setting a default ipv6 route for me via a local-link address in karmic?
<pitti> slangasek: with metric 1000 only, I hope?
<slangasek> pitti: doesn't matter, why is it adding it at all?
<pitti> I don't have a LL default route, though
<pitti> slangasek: it shouldn't indeed
<slangasek> metric 1024
<slangasek> pitti: this breaks me trying to reach releases.u.c when I don't have any other default routes :P
<pitti> conceptually, IPv4LL doesn't have default routes..
<slangasek> (which is a separate bug)
<slangasek> exactly
<slangasek> didn't I just fix this same braindamage in avahi for ipv4
<LaserJock> slangasek: Edubuntu is looking good, smoketests done, you need anything more from me?
<slangasek> LaserJock: s/smoketests/full ISO testing/ :)  Is http://edubuntu.org/news/9.10-release
<slangasek> ... ready to go?
<slangasek> loading that page gives me a lot of "9.04", and no content
<LaserJock> slangasek: the content is written, it's a matter of it being in place, one sec
<spaetz> LaserJock: that site still does not look right :)
<LaserJock> spaetz: workin' on it
<slangasek> luisbg, TheMuso, cody-somerville, superm1: ping
<slangasek> luisbg, cody-somerville, superm1: you might like to unembargo your content :)
<LaserJock> slangasek: looks like we're ready here
<slangasek> LaserJock: ack, looks good to me
<slangasek> asac: is this NM creating garbage IPv6 default routes?
<luisbg> slangasek, unembargo?
<sivang> anyone near budapest ?
<slangasek> luisbg: is there content somewhere that's ready to be posted to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/9.10release_notes ?
<luisbg> slangasek, let me check if 'our guy' has written the release note and just hasnt published it?
<slangasek> luisbg: ok, thanks :)
<luisbg> slangasek, no problem
<luisbg> slangasek, link will be ready in 5 minutes
<luisbg> \o/
<slangasek> luisbg: cheers
<luisbg> slangasek, cheers you :)
<luisbg> slangasek, Ubuntu Studio release notes up and running, thank stochastic :)
<slangasek> \o/
<slangasek> superm1: olly olly oxen free
<luisbg> slangasek, is superm1 the only one pending to give you release notes?
<slangasek> yep
<luisbg> superm1, take that! :P hehehehehee
 * spaetz sighs looking at slashdot. they are faster than reality again.
<luisbg> spaetz, yet I see no mention there about: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9140048/Many_open_sourcers_back_an_Oracle_takeover_of_MySQL?taxonomyId=53&pageNumber=1
<ion> keybuk: ureadaheadâs sreadahead replacement retains /etc/cron.monthly/sreadahead
<Keybuk> ion: good catch
<ion> keybuk: Could there perhaps be some logic in ureadahead to determine when the pack is obsolete? E.g. when readaheading stuff from the pack, compare the inodes to what the pack said they were, and if > n % have changed, delete the pack for the next boot.
<pitti> oh, is ureadahead the latest thing now?
<ion> keybuk: Better logic than just â> 28 days oldâ, that is.
<directhex> hm, ubuntu.com seems a bit busy
<slangasek> what's that about
<jpds> directhex: /.
<slangasek> is something happening today?
<spaetz> nahh, must be coincidence
<directhex> any last-minute respins scheduled, or is it "safe" to yank down an image?
<Keybuk> ion: patches welcome ;-)
<ion> keybuk: I mean, would this approach work?
<Keybuk> ion: depends on ssd vs. hdd of course
 * MsMaco hugs everybody
<MsMaco> thank you all for everything you do to make ubuntu rock!
<highvoltage> MsMaco: ping!!!
<MsMaco> (this is maco, btw. quassel core is offline)
<MsMaco> highvoltage: howdy
<highvoltage> MsMaco: see pm
<flodo> slangasek: thank you and all the others for your efforts!
 * flodo goes installing
<ion> keybuk: âwe end up with multi-megabyte pack files of \0sâ â how about writing sparse files?
<Keybuk> ion: ?
<ion> keybuk: Or did i understand the comment incorrectly?
<Keybuk> which comment?
<Keybuk> oh, about why not PATH_MAX
<ion> The one i quoted. :-P
* slangasek changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 9.10 now playing in a theater near you | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-jaunty | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<Keybuk> the problem is ending up with multi-metabyte files
<Keybuk> ie. to read ahead, you have to read 8MB of pack file to tell you what to read :p
<ion> Do they contain continuous chunks of \0s? In that case, an apparent 8 MB file could take a lot less on the disk when written as a sparse file.
<ion> And therefore could be read a lot faster.
<superm1> slangasek, for some reason i'm missing BT to all my channels last night but see a "?" from you in #ubuntu-mythtv-dev.  was there something you needed answered?
<slangasek> superm1: was inquiring about getting the mythbuntu announcement published / unembargoed; Daviey has handled it, we're golden now
<superm1> cool good
<pitti> \o/
<jdong> a/win 18
<Mamarok> highvolt1ge: congratulations :)
<ion> keybuk: Ok, writing a sparse file wouldnât help; the holes arenât long enough in the pack format. But how about gzipping? My 614 kB pack gets compressed to 45 kB.
<ion> keybuk: And gzipping such a small file presents *very* low overhead.
<ion> keybuk: That is, even if the limit is raised again.
<highvolt1ge> thanks Mamarok!
<Keybuk> ion: cost of gzip is a cost
<Keybuk> the whole point is to be as fast as possible
<Keybuk> so the pack is "fastest format to read"
<joaopinto> update-manager handles special upgrade cases not covered by dist-upgrader, right ?
<jdong> dist-upgrader is another name for update-manager-core, they use the same engine.
<jdong> apt-get dist-upgrade / aptitude ...-upgrade are the more "primitive" algorithms
<joaopinto> and the update-manager-core uses rules defined out of the packaging process ?
<jdong> correct
<mvo_> joaopinto: looks at DistUpgradeQuirks.py if you are interessted in the details (in the u-m codebase)
<joaopinto> mvo_, that is what I was looking for, thanks :)
<cjwatson> cody-somerville,superm1: please could you branch xubuntu.karmic and mythbuntu.karmic seeds to create xubuntu.lucid and mythbuntu.lucid seeds; I don't have permission
<superm1> cjwatson, i thought i already did a few days ago?
<cjwatson> oh, you were early? :)
<cjwatson> cool
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, aye
<cjwatson> thanks
<dupondje> the beast has been released :P
<kirkland> can someone promote this build?  https://edge.launchpad.net/~kirkland/+archive/ppa/+build/1313294
<kirkland> i'm testing this for an SRU
<cjwatson> kirkland: done
<kirkland> cjwatson: cheers
<cjwatson> lucid creation in progress
<cjwatson> (we never rest ...)
<nxvl> cjwatson: where is that the opening of the development archives is announced?
<cjwatson> nxvl: ubuntu-devel-announce
<joaopinto> hum, seen 2 users reporting failing to boot with usplash enabled already
<nxvl> cjwatson: thnx
<nxvl> hmm, funny i was indeed subscribed to that list, how i miss it
<kirkland> cjwatson: one more, please?  https://edge.launchpad.net/~kirkland/+archive/ppa/+build/1313430
<cjwatson> kirkland: done
<kirkland> cjwatson: thanks again
<corp186> I'm trying to make a source package that creates a binary arch-dependent and an arch-independent dev package using CDBS
<corp186> I haven't found answers to my questions in the cdbs docs
<corp186> is there an irc channel or some other forum I can ask in?
<stochastic> who is the release manager for 9.10?
<stochastic> corp186, #ubuntu-motu is pretty good with cdbs stuff
<corp186> stochastic: thanks, I'll ask there
<sebner> stochastic: slangasek it is
<ct529> the new ubuntu site front page is broken on firefox 3014 on kubuntu 904 64 bit. Who should I inform?
<stochastic> slangasek, I really don't mean to be rude by asking this, but how much longer can Ubuntu Studio users expect to wait before their ISOs are published?  We're getting a growing number of enquiries across all levels of communication about this.
<dojo> hi guys, just wanted to say thanks to any devs in here. 9.10 has a noticeable speed boost :D
<oliver3> o0o0o0o 9.10 is out :D
<oliver3> Seriously hope this upgrade doesn't take forever
<oliver3> couldn't even download the release notes <_<
<oliver3> Perhaps another time
<oliver3> xD
<cjwatson> stochastic: as far as I can see, they've already been published
<stochastic> cjwatson, there's no image at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/9.10/ or final torrent at http://torrent.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/karmic/
<stochastic> cjwatson, where is it that they're published?
<cjwatson> /ubuntustudio/releases/9.10/ exists on the master machine
<cjwatson> if they aren't showing up on cdimage, it's due to some kind of release-induced lag
<cjwatson> which is unfortunate, but is more a sysadmin kind of thing than anything the release manager can influence directly ...
<cjwatson> elmo: ^- is cdimage just hammered?
<stochastic> that doesn't quite explain the lack of listing on the torrent website
<elmo> cjwatson: yes, I'll bring up another cdimage machine this evening
<elmo> but it doesn't explain it not being on magellanic
<stochastic> here: http://torrent.ubuntu.com:6969/ Ubuntu Studio is still listed as RC
<cjwatson> mm, I'll look at that
<cjwatson> elmo: it's in the torrent tree on antimony
<cjwatson> elmo: /srv/cdimage.ubuntu.com/www/torrent/ubuntustudio/releases/karmic/release/alternate/
<elmo> cjwatson: ok
<cjwatson> (and has been for nearly five hours, FWIW)
<elmo> syncing now
<elmo> not sure what happened to the previous sync
<elmo> well then bounce the tracker
<cjwatson> lamont: can we have lucid buildd chroots, please?
<Mirv> thanks everyone. even though a lot happened at quite last minute, I18N turned out great after all, thanks for all the fixes like Michael fixing stuff I expected only for lucid :)
<Mirv> this is a great base to do the LTS (regarding this area), and the LTS schedule is such that everything does not have to be done at the last minute
<stochastic> cjwatson, so should this be fixing itself now or is there more waiting to be done?
<cjwatson> stochastic: I don't think there's anything more the release team can do; I don't know if there's more that our sysadmins need to do
<lamont> cjwatson: meh.
<lamont> ok
<stochastic> cjwatson, okay I'm not really sure of your internal structure - I'm relatively new on the ubuntu studio team.  I just still don't see any torrent or iso.  Is there any direction I should take this?
<cjwatson> you've done the right thing by reporting it
<stochastic> now I sit and wait
<stochastic> okay thanks guys
<cjwatson> stochastic: I expect that this will effectively sort itself out once things recover a bit from load, but unfortunately I can't give you a timeline
<stochastic> yeah, that's expected
 * cjwatson publishes ports CDs, just to contribute to load ;-)
<stochastic> cjwatson: sorted!  Thanks!
<doko__> uname -i behaviour is interesting on ubuntu ...
<doko__>       -i, --hardware-platform
<doko__>               print the hardware platform or "unknown"
<doko__> and it always prints unknown ...
<syn-ack> I'm sure you guys have been getting this question all day but whats the current timeline to start dropping things for Lucid?
<cjwatson> syn-ack: over the next week
<cjwatson> syn-ack: I did most of the initial lucid creation today, but we'll need to get the toolchain started
<syn-ack> cj: Good deal!
<cjwatson> doko__: you're good to do initial toolchain uploads for lucid
 * syn-ack hugs cjwatson just a littlebit
<pitti> thanks to whoever created lucid in LP, helps me a lot with keeping track of SRUs
<cjwatson> I don't know exactly when we'll start them building, but might as well start uploading
<cjwatson> pitti: you're welcome
<cjwatson> well, actually I got mthaddon to do it, but :)
<lamont> E: Invalid Release file, no entry for main/binary-hppa/Packages <-- sometimes, automation goes overboard
<doko__> cjwatson: maybe not tonight, lool asked for one other change
<syn-ack> cjwatson, dude, take the credit wherever possible. :P
<stochastic> cjwatson, the iso files at http://torrent.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/karmic/release/alternate/ give Forbidden errors and the torrent files don't have any peers with the file.
<cjwatson> elmo: ^- those files are mode 644 on antimony - do you know why they're Forbidden on torrent.u.c?
<elmo> probably because the tracker hadn't restarted yet
<cjwatson> 664, rather
<elmo> -rw-rw-r-- 1 archvsync archvsync 1556807680 Oct 27 17:00 ubuntustudio-9.10-alternate-i386.iso
<elmo> stochastic: try now?
<stochastic> elmo, still forbidden
<elmo> stochastic: oh, well, yes
<elmo> directly downloading via http is of course
<elmo> torrent.u.c is there for torrent, not http
<stochastic> torrent is active in my Deluge and no peers have the file
<stochastic> do you want me to re-download the torrent and restart?
<pitti> zul: did you see Steve's question in bug 451314 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 451314 in php5 "[SRU] PHP 5.2.10 zlib bug remains for 32bit" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/451314
<zul> pitti: yeah its on my list today to answer them
<elmo> stochastic: I don't have any peers but I see other leechers
<elmo> stochastic: I think once someone completes it should be good
<stochastic> elmo, nobody is downloading the file, It's been sitting a 0mb/s for five minutes now
<stochastic> try the 64bit for a more dramatic example.
<elmo> stochastic: like I said, when I download it, I see 2 people downloading
<stochastic> elmo, okay, I'll trust you.  off I go for the morning coffee
<stochastic> thanks.
<elmo> stochastic: well I may be wrong, but AFAICS it should work and I've done everything I would normally do to get a missing file into the torrent
<elmo> OTOH it's very hard for me to test from this network
<maswan> I can test if I can get an URL to the torrent
<elmo> aha, now it's working
<elmo> maswan: http://torrent.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/karmic/release/alternate/ubuntustudio-9.10-alternate-amd64.iso.torrent
<lamont> cjwatson: lucid tarballs uploading now.
<maswan> is cdimage.u.c/ubuntustudio/releases an interesting part of cdimage.u.c for me to mirror?
<maswan> any other parts there that are big in terms of demand that isn't on http://ftp.acc.umu.se/mirror/cdimage.ubuntu.com/
<elmo> maswan: I suspect it's interesting for the ubuntu studio folks, yeah
<maswan> elmo: cdimage seems horribly slow in terms of even giving me a directory listing, want to shove some of that traffic our way, or is it just all over saturation?
<elmo> maswan: the two machines just don't have any more BW to give
 * maswan nods
<Aquina> Is http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ down?
<elmo> maswan: I'm not sure I could even get on them to redirect traffic your way
<maswan> Aquina: no, just heavily loaded
<Aquina> oh
<elmo> maswan: I'm going to head into the DC and bring up a third
<maswan> Aquina: I managed to get a directory listing after quite some time
<maswan> elmo: Hm. Of course, I might not have all of the stuff yet, might be waiting for an rsync from cdimage...
<elmo> maswan: right
<elmo> whereas I can resync a 3rd from the master
 * maswan nods
<elmo> I'm hoping 3Gb/s out to be enough for the greedy cdimage monster
<maswan> good luck :)
<maswan> Ah, we only sync that every 12 hours, and it looks like it grabbed it just before release images started appearing (11h ago)
<lamont> cjwatson: and FIN
<stochastic> elmo the http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/releases/9.10/release/ folder is still empty
<elmo> stochastic: sigh, I know dude
<elmo> stochastic: I'm working on it
<stochastic> okay
<stochastic> :)
<stochastic> thanks for getting the torrent file working
<ccheney> argh
<ccheney> is it now generally impossible to edit anything in launchpad since it forces them to be 'JSON' compliant
<ccheney> or is there some workaround for that braindamage
<mathiaz> ccheney: O
<mathiaz> ccheney: I've run into similar when trying to edit a bug description
<mathiaz> ccheney: I've just added a /+edit to the end of the url bug
<ccheney> mathiaz: ah :)
<ccheney> mathiaz: nearly every time i have to edit something it happens
<ccheney> what is allowed in the json spec is much smaller set of what you can type and even what you can type in normal sentences apparently
<ccheney> i think ' and " is not allowed
<mathiaz> ccheney: if the content is properly escaped it shouldn't be such a big problem
<ccheney> well the content shouldn't be escaped at all in the web view, it should happen by whatever they are doing to make the edit work, which apparently isn't happening
<cumulus007> Hi, I'm the translator of the Dutch localization of the 9.10 release notes and to my unpleasant surprise, I noticed that the Dutch version has been removed from the wiki
<cumulus007> I'm wondering why this has happened
<cumulus007> It's also removed from the list of completed translations, so this didn't happen by accident at all
<ccheney> slangasek: ^ cumulus007
<cumulus007> Hm, it looks like the release notes have been changed since the last time I saw them, I think that's the reason that the dutch version has been removed
<ccheney> cumulus007: ah ok
<cumulus007> still I think it's a bit rude to just remove the dutch version entirely
<an_rey_> ÐÑÐµÑ Ñ Ð²ÑÑÐ¾Ð´Ð¾Ð¼ 910 )))
<Darxus> Nobodies like me can't add milestones on launchpad?
<newbuntu> hello
<newbuntu> i have a big problem ... while updating my ubuntu 9.04 to 9.10 i switched via kvm switch to another computer
<newbuntu> by switching back now to the linux machine it did not regognize my keyboard and mouse
<newbuntu> so i can't enter the override of some files ... what can i do ?
<TheMuso> slangasek: pong
<Patriick> hello all, I'm having trouble installing Ubuntu 9.10 in virtualbox getting error messaging saying there is corrupt files in the iso
<Patriick> UBuntu 9.10 server edition ^
<sebner> Patriick: have you checked md5sums?
<Patriick> nope :)
<Patriick> sebner give a few minutes
<Patriick> MD5: 3A79465BEDACE99BF02E51FFC91F9613
<Patriick> SHA1: 24CA3DBE3397EEDB8C61704E99CD23EF482C1D76
<ajmitch> the md5sum there doesn't match either of the amd64 or i386 md5sums that I'm seeing on a local mirror
<Patriick> Well I got the download straight from the United States server :O
<Patriick> on the official site, and it is the 32 bit vesion
<Patriick> ugh well i suppose i'll just redownload
<Patriick> I'll download from UK this time
<Patriick> yeah the sizes are different
<Patriick> old iso = 559 MB new iso = 641 MB
<jnassifg> ubuntu asks for your password too much
<Patriick> then login as root
<jnassifg> yeah, it's not in sudoers
<TheMuso> Not sure if thats good advice.
<Patriick> lol ^
<jnassifg> it's in /var/gobbletygook/polickit/someothercrap
<jnassifg> ideas?
<Patriick> wat
<TheMuso> jnassifg: Its better than not being asked for it at all/not enough IMO.
<TheMuso> although it depends on where you think it shouldn't be asked for.
<ccheney> is it possible to copy a package from backports into a ppa?
<jnassifg> what the hell did ubuntu do to grub
<TheMuso> jnassifg: Updated it to grub2.
* sladen changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 9.10 now playing in a theater near you | Archive: ???? | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-jaunty | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<jnassifg> the new ubuntu doesn't support syncing to iphones with 3.x firmware out of the box.
<Patriick> wat about jailbroke ipod touches :O
<jdong> lol how on earth does one sync to the iPhone 3.x??
<TheMuso> jnassifg: Thats hardly surprising, considering the timeframe that the 3.0 firmware was released, and the state of Ubuntu development and upstrea development for iphone support at the time.
<jdong> both the Touches and iPhones even when jailbroken won't sync
<lifeless> ccheney: I'm not sure
<jdong> (we don't know how CoreFP generates the LLVM-obfuscated hashes yet, AFAIK)
<joaopinto> is audio testing performed at some scale with a predefined range of tests and hardware ?
<sebner> jdong: what's why I have to use win7 for itunes :(
<jnassifg>  ubuntu should have waited a few days for the ff update
<jdong> jnassifg: FF will be updated....
<sebner> jnassifg: why? It'll come through updates
<jdong> that's always the case.
<TheMuso> joaopinto: I believe so, there is tests done on hardware that Ubuntu will ship on, and then there is the hardware of the devs.
<jnassifg> so what gets edited now instead of menu.lst?
<jdong> sebner: I think it's a fair bet to say at this point that Apple music players should no longer be expected to sync with non-iTunes
<joaopinto> TheMuso, is there any data about that ?
<jnassifg> in grub2
<jdong> sebner: the way that Apple is leveraging LLVM to obfuscate the process is making it prohibitively hard to reverse engineer
<jdong> and I believe usbmuxd syncing on iPhoneOS (non-DFU) is still SSL-encrypted
<jdong> (disclaimer: I'm still a happy iPhone user)
<sebner> jdong: ACK, normal ipods work(ed) but Touch and phone is horrible (I have a touch)
<jdong> sebner: Apple can change that at any moment too :(
<jdong> sebner: fortunately iPods (non-Touch) right now ignore much of the iTunesDB hashing.
<jdong> sebner: but the iPhoneOS-verified hashing algorithm is crazy enough to take random conditional branches, scrub memory every couple operations, ....
<sebner> jdong: heh, iTunes for linux ftw if they can't stop haXX0ring the hashing
<jdong> sebner: you know it's bad news when a 20MB .DLL generates a 5-line string hash :)
<sebner> heh
<lifeless> jdong: serious? wtf
<jnassifg> I dont see a menu
<jnassifg> when grub loads
<sebner> jdong: we need more talented haXX0rs then :D
<jdong> lifeless: yup. twiddled at the LLVM level
<sebner> jnassifg: only appears with dual boot system
<sebner> +s
<jnassifg> ?
<jnassifg> IN THE NEWEST UBNUNTU, I dont see a menu when grub loads
<jdong> lifeless: http://matt.colyer.name/projects/iphone-linux/index.php?title=Hash
<jnassifg> why?
<sebner> jnassifg: because it doesn't appear on non-dual boot systems since ever?
<jdong> lifeless: (heh most useful information was DMCAed. YAY)
<Mez> anyone around can do me a favour ?
<Mez> pastebin the output of mount | grep swap
<ajmitch> that would depend on the favour
<Mez> ajmitch: probably missed it with the netsplit
<Mez> pastebin the output of mount | grep swap
 * ajmitch has no output for that
<Mez> ajmitch: and sudo lsof | grep swap
 * ajmitch has no output for that
<Mez> no swap ?
<ajmitch> lsof does list kswapd but nothing else
<ajmitch> however, swapon -s does list a partition in use for swap
<ajmitch> Mez: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/304606/ for the 3 commands
<Mez> weird that it doesnt show in mount anymore
<ajmitch> a little strange
<ajmitch> but it's the same on jaunty
<ajmitch> looks to have been like this for awhile - I just checked on a lenny install
<Mez> lol - probably didnt notice as I wasnt looking for it before.
<Mez> I recently had it bitching at me cause I have "encrypted" swap
<bucky> how do you keep xchat from logging you into #ubuntu?
<ikonia> bucky: please join #xchat as instructed in freenode
<mneptok> bucky: this is not a support channel
<bucky> how do you keep xchat from logging you into #ubuntu?
<Mez> bucky: ask in #xchat, as you've been told in #freenode
<ikonia> bucky: please ask in #xchat as the kind folk in #freenode advised you
<bucky> ubuntu is the only distro that screwed with xchat to join their channel... how do you undo it
<bucky> simple question
<Mez> ikonia: snap :D
<Mez> mneptok: kickforward for #xchat ? :P
<TheMuso> Was that the right approach.
<TheMuso> s/./?/
<mneptok> Mez: i love irssi, but that doesn;t mean i hate XChat ;)
<Mez> mneptok: lol
<Mez> mneptok: didnt think of it like that
<mneptok> TheMuso: yes, given that user's prior behavior
<nalioth> that wasn't about xchat
<TheMuso> mneptok: Fair enough then.
<slangasek> TheMuso: hey, was just a ping regarding taking the web content active; luisbg helped me sort it, so no worries
#ubuntu-devel 2009-10-30
<TheMuso> slangasek: ok, FWIW I don't have access to the site.
<TheMuso> i.e write access.
<slangasek> TheMuso: well, for this round I was pointed at wiki.ubuntu.com for Ubuntu Studio's URL ;)  So it was plausible you had the content at your disposal - anyway, is done now
<TheMuso> slangasek: right
<zooko> Hey folks, I just want to say Way To Go on Karmic!  You've done it again!  If your inboxes aren't overflowing with praise and gratitude, then this is just because you've been doing such a good job for so long that the world has started to take you for granted.
<TheMuso> zooko: Try overflowing with bug reports. :p
<MsMaco> TheMuso: :)
<zooko> :-)
<zooko> I was thinking that maybe the Lucid LTS could be made super stable by making it be nothing except bugfixes to Karmic.  ;-)
<zooko> Heh heh.  I'm super excited because the p2p storage system that I love is included in Karmic -- Tahoe-LAFS.
<zooko> I need to figure out the Lucid schedule to make sure that there is a nice shiny new Tahoe-LAFS at least a few weeks before the appropriate freeze for Lucid.
<TheMuso> zooko: Interesting thought. Audio wise, it will be bug fixes mostly one one side, and hardware enablement on the other.
<zooko> By the way, because of this bug in binutils -- https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/461303 -- it might be good to find any packages that were built with the bad version of binutils and then grep their source code for ".intel_syntax".
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461303 in binutils "generates-bad-code regression" [Medium,Fix committed]
<zooko> Any packages with intel_syntax ASM that were built with the bad binutils should be rebuilt with the fix.
<hyperair> is there a way to step a few levels down the stack in gdb using apport-retrace?
<Patriick> quick question, do most portable hard drives work on Ubuntu immediatly?
<wgrant> Patriick: You want #ubuntu.
<Patriick> yeah sorry :(
<Patriick> Is Ubuntu even open source? :P
<wgrant> .. huh?
<Patriick> Why not just linux from scratch?
<Patriick> ugh nvm
<wgrant> Ah, I see.
<kees> zooko: we did that yesterday and reviewed all the matches -- none were built after the buggy binutils was in the distro.  lucky us!
 * MsMaco wonders who's awake
<TheMuso> MsMaco: Depends on what issue you are having.
 * jdong rubs his eyes
<jdong> want... foood... first
<MsMaco> TheMuso: was just pointed at that bug where Keybuk had large files corrupting. think i'm hitting it too
<merkur2k> anyone around who knows a but about package postinst script interaction with mysql?
<merkur2k> or the debian-sys-maint mysql user in general?
<liw> bug #463742 is not in English, probably in Spanish or Portuguese (sorry, I'm ignorant): could someone provide a translation to the bug report?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 463742 in update-manager "erro1 atualizaÃ§Ã£o para kubuntu 9,10" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/463742
<MsMaco> portuguese
<MsMaco> but i dont know portuguese. maybe wait for BUGaubundo to wake up?
<liw> ack
<liw> and thanks
<MsMaco> spanish never puts ~ on top of anything except n
<MsMaco> and doesnt have the c thing
<MsMaco> with just the c thing, could be french. with both, portuguese is the only one i can think of
<MsMaco> (hope that helps)
<syn-ack> Quick question: This may not be the correct place for it but let me know.,... I'm setting up a cross compile environment to compile an app for a ppc proc which export CROSS_COMPILE= arg would I use for the libs? libc?
<syn-ack> this is on an ubuntu system to another ubuntu system thats why I asked in here...
<pitti> Good morning
<mneptok> liw: "error updating for kubuntu 9.10"
<liw> mneptok, hm, not terribly enlightening
<liw> mneptok, thanks for the translation, though
<mneptok> no problemo, senor.
<MsMaco> hello dpm
<dpm> hey MsMaco
<dpm> morning all
<dholbach> good morning
<MsMaco> howdy
<dholbach> hey MsMaco!
<pitti> wow, ureadahead
<dholbach> what's going to be next? :)
<dholbach> xreadahead?
<roh> hi there
<dholbach> myreadahead?
<dholbach> readahead2? :)
<roh> hopefully ssd and no readahead ? *ducks*
 * roh just waded through a 8.10->9.10 upgrade.. so ignore my sarcasm, sorry
<liw> "Read ahead 2: The Angular Momentum Strikes Back"
<ogra> dholbach, scott said he works on ureadahead :)
<pitti> so, no readahead: 45 s, sreadahead (karmic final): 57 s, ureadahead: 25 s
<ogra> oh, pitti said that above :P
<roh> hm. has ubuntu a concept how do do suspend to disk with crypted disks and crypted swap?
<RAOF> roh: I think that works right now, as long as you don't have a random key for swap.
 * RAOF *does* have a random key for swap, so doesn't actually test.
<roh> RAOF well. of course i have. without it cryptodisks are plain stupid. (or one doesnt use swap)
<MsMaco> pitti: WOW!
<pitti> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/bootcharts/
<roh> RAOF the question thus is rather: can one make it possible by storing the key on disk, e.g. on one of the crypted disks, which need to be locked and unlocked anyways. on suspend/resume to all make sense
<RAOF> roh: I mean - you can use the same key for swap as for your other crypted discs.
<roh> hm. i hit lp bug #388221 yesterday. seems that python-support doesnt have RAOF yes.. but thats somehow a hack. and also requires handling for that in the ramdisk
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 388221 in rrdtool "python-rrdtool is almost empty" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/388221
<roh> eek.
<roh> mixed up 2 lines there. restart parsing at nick
<roh> wtf. i cant login via ssh without key anymore? the agent tries all keys and doesnt even ask for a pw now?
<roh> anyways. the rrdtool bug seems to come from python-suÃpport not providing /usr/bin/pysupport-parseversions anymore, which is used to find out which python-versions are installed in debian/rules of python-rrdtool
<huats> plop
<huats> oups sorry WW
<huats> :)
<davmor2> Congrats Guys Karmic Rocks
<RAOF> roh: Why is supplying a passphrase for swap a hack? Or, _more_ of a hack than storing the random key somewhere (where?) in (one of) the other disc(s) and reading it after supplying that disc's crypt secret?
<roh> RAOF hm. the more i think about it it should be ok. i mean.. one needs to check swap for a 'image' of some kind anyways.. i guess that happens in ramdisk anyways.
<dholbach> davmor2: thanks to your great work too!
<davmor2> :) Np's
<bigon> I know that this question should probabily go to #ubuntu but are the iwlagn driver missing from the alternate install cd?
<MsMaco> bigon: missing as in you cant go online while running from the alt cd, or missing as in they dont get installed by it?
<MsMaco> wireless drivers are not in use on the alternate cd, no...but you should end up with them installed at the end
<bigon> MsMaco: there are other wireless driver available during the install
<bigon> but not that one
<MsMaco> *shrug* no idea then. all my laptops are intel. i dont recall ever having working wireless from alt cd...
<MsMaco> pitti: thanks
<bigon> I was pretty sure it was working with jaunty alternate
<MsMaco> beats me
<MsMaco> i dont have any alternate cds to play with, so i cant retest
<dholbach> can anybody try to shed some light on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/464411 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 464411 in linux "After upgrade to Karmic, root partition (sda1) is missing /dev/sda1 is missing from /dev/disk/by-uuid" [Undecided,New]
<dholbach> ^ does this look like a linux bug? or what else could it be?
<\sh> good morning...*whereismyaspirin*
<roh> hm. any idea why my ssh client stopped asking for passwords and only lets me login via key now?
<ion> Because the ssh server admin disabled password authentication.
<roh> not.
<lifeless> or changed the host key
<\sh> roh, check your sshd config for changes...hopefully you have your config in something like a VCS
<roh> ion after update from 8.10 it started popping up a gnome-dialog for the passphrase and 'just try every key'
<roh> in this case i'm sure it allow password. standing next to the box. and did the same before the update
<\sh> roh, try this in your ~/.ssh/config  -> http://paste.ubuntu.com/304912/ before any other Host ... entries...it helped me, thx to cjwatson
<dholbach> so bug 464411 could well be a util-linux bug?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 464411 in util-linux "After upgrade to Karmic, root partition (sda1) is missing /dev/sda1 is missing from /dev/disk/by-uuid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/464411
<roh> \sh yeah. that fixed it. thanks
<roh> \sh please make sure that gets default again or _really_ well documented
<\sh> roh, I think it has nothing to do with openssh-server/client something's changed somewhere in this gnome-ssh-agent or so...ask on #ubuntu-desktop
<\sh> or check the changelogs
<cjwatson> lamont: thanks
<roh> \sh still evil to debug and find
<cjwatson> pitti: yes, ureadahead is roughly a factor of two win for me too
<Snares> Does anyone here have a Creative X-Fi? If so, does your mic work?
<Snares> Does anyone have any ideas on how to make it work?
<joaopinto> Snares, this is not a support channel, repeating on every channel will not help
<Snares> joaopinto: Oh ok, sorry :(
<Snares> joaopinto: I was kind of thinking that you guys could possibly add support for the microphone.
<Snares> joaopinto: I'm not actually trying to get support; I just am trying to find someone who has an X-Fi to figure out if it's a problem specific to my configuration or to all X-Fi soundcards.
<joaopinto> Snares, that is a support issue, regardless how you put it ;), you already askd on #ubuntu, which has 1,5K users, is very unlikely that you will get an answer with more 0.2K :)
<Snares> joaopinto: :D
<directhex> or try the alsa channel
<MsMaco> i think ya ought to just file a bug *shrug*
<Snares> MsMaco: Good idea.
<Snares> directhex: Same :)
<Shtl> i cant able to copy a file more than 600 MB from my pen drive (8 GB) to PC intel celron 1 GHz, 256 MB RAM, can any one tell me cause?? only partial copy is happening
<bryce> Shtl, this is not the support channel; try #ubuntu
<Shtl> ok
<Shtl> no one is active their
<mvo> pitti: if you could have a look (sru) at bug #446956, that would be much appreciated
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 446956 in update-manager "Upgrade from Ubuntu UNR 9.04 to 9.10 fails with essential package 'ubuntu-minimal' can not be found anymore (mirror overloaded)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/446956
<mvo> if there is currently someone in india reading this, could you please check if in.archive.ubuntu.com works from within india?
<SurfyDudee> does 9.10 have better support for usb wifi then 9.04?
<Madkiss> hi folks
<directhex> SurfyDudee, it has a new kernel, so probably
<pitti> mvo: will look
<mvo> thanks pitti! one is pending in jaunty-proposed too (a proxy fix)
<pitti> mvo: please reupload update-manager with -v to include the previous changelog
<mvo> pitti: the karmic one? I can do that, I was not aware it is needed even when 0.126.7 is already in -proposed
<pitti> mvo: it's not needed "even when" it's in -proposed, but *because* it is already in -proposed :)
<pitti> cjwatson: are you already merging debhelper? otherwise I'd do it now (since I want to merge cdbs afterwards)
<mvo> pitti: uploaded again
<ScottK> pitti: On CDBS merge, I know that Debian took the --install-layout=deb change you sent them and came up with a different approach to solve the problem, so the merge may be a bit odd there.
<cjwatson> pitti: nope, go for it
<pitti> ScottK: yeah, I followed the debian bug; I'll have a look at it, and presumably just take their approach
<pitti> mvo: danke
<cjwatson> pitti: (not doing a whole lot of merging today, as I'm away next week and need to do some preparation for that)
<pitti> cjwatson: ok; I wanted to get at least those two done today, so that we can unblock lucid soon
<cjwatson> pitti: indeed
<Keybuk> m-o-m will be spinning up soon
<Keybuk> modulo shit t-mobile hotspot on train :)
<Keybuk> kees: I'm afraid I'm having to drop the -security stuff
<Keybuk> we just don't have the disk space needed to maintain the deltas
<cjwatson> oh, is m-o-m running against testing or unstable?
<cjwatson> since https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS says that in general we're syncing from testing this cycle
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Karmic/Backgrounds/Extra_Abstract?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=olivia_karmic2_super.png is gorgeous wallpaper, for those who haven't seen it (it was doing the rounds in the London office)
<Keybuk> err
<Keybuk> that's not possible
<ion> keybuk: With âexpect forkâ, i managed to consistently get Upstart into a âstop/killed (IIRC), process <inexistent-pid>â state. Since i didnât want to reboot the server to get Upstart back to a good state, i used a script that forks children until a child gets the pid in question, then kills its parent and lets the child exit. Then Upstart noticed the death of the process and all was good until the next attempt. :-P I simply made the daemon stay in ...
<ion> ... foreground, problem solved.
<pitti> wow!
<ion> keybuk: I guess âexpect forkâ isnât the right thing for a shell script that runs external binaries and then finally execs the daemon that forks once.
<Keybuk> we're already largely *ahead* of testing, no?
<Keybuk> I'll flush mom's brain and see
<Keybuk> packages where we're ahead of testing may need to be merged manually
<Keybuk> (unless we just stick with the unstable version I suppose :)
<ion> The fork-and-exec for the external commands must confuse it, or something.
<Keybuk> ion: yes, it's quite easy to do that
<Keybuk> ion: which daemon were you using originally?  a few handle SIGCHLD themselves
<Keybuk> ion: no, that won't work ;)
<Keybuk> ion: the shell script eats the SIGCHLDs so Upstart never gets them
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I don't think anyone's suggesting we go backwards from where we are now, certainly
<doko_> starting eclipse on ia64, getting a coffee ...
<cjwatson> testing-proposed-updates uploads might be an issue in cases where things are truly wedged in testing ...
<ion> keybuk: 0.10 will handle that case without any special configuration at all, right?
<Keybuk> ion: right
<ScottK> Sounds like requestsync should also be modified to look in testing by default too.
 * cjwatson does a quick check with suite-diff
<Keybuk> cjwatson: so which Debian suites do I need?
<hrickards> Can I request a sync from Debian unstable to lucid, or should I wait til the package migrates to testing?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I think just testing
<cjwatson> Keybuk: testing-proposed-updates is just another way for packages to filter into testing, and we probably don't want them until they make it there
<cjwatson> hrickards: you can request a sync from anywhere :)
<hrickards> cjwatson: Ok. Thanks. :)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: right, but should I keep track of what's in t-p-u in case anyone wants to merge from there or syncs from there
<cjwatson> hrickards: though *automatic* syncs will just be from testing this cycle
<cjwatson> Keybuk: mm. that might be a good idea, although is mom able to offer multiple choices for the sync source?
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> we can customise it per-package
<cjwatson> FWIW, packages in karmic older than unstable: 3209. Packages in karmic older than testing: 2753. Packages in karmic older than testing-proposed-updates: 2.
<Keybuk> e.g. I'm pretty sure it still merges firefox from experemental ;)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: how many newer than testing?
<cjwatson> 1490
<cjwatson> 1329 newer than unstable
<cjwatson> 7 newer than t-p-u (t-p-u is a partial suite so the numbers there are always going to be a bit odd)
<cjwatson> this is using lp:~cjwatson/+junk/suite-diff
<hrickards> cjwatson: Ah, I understand now.
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> I've set it up so you can just add a package to unstable.txt
<Keybuk> then it will get merged from there instead
<pitti> E: debhelper_7.4.3ubuntu1_amd64.changes: bad-ubuntu-distribution-in-changes-file lucid
<pitti> hehe
<cjwatson> pitti: hmph, I thought we'd added that to lintian
<pitti> lintian is current
<pitti> well, while I'm at it I might just do an ubuntu2 with that
<cjwatson> I'll add it upstream
<pitti> thanks
<cjwatson> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=552707
<ubottu> Debian bug 552707 in lintian "lintian: dak will now accept 3.0 (quilt) and 3.0 (native)" [Normal,Open]
<cjwatson> eek, that suggests Soyuz is going to need to learn to cope with the new source formats fairly sharpish
<cjwatson> though I don't see anything on debian-devel-announce@ so maybe it's not actually being used yet
<pitti> debhelper smoketest passed, uploaded
<apw> cjwatson, would we expect lucid to show up in rmadison output yet?
<cjwatson> pitti: http://git.debian.org/?p=lintian/lintian.git;a=commitdiff;h=b6f772a082dbe4d11d85821da67f85f094fced1a
<ScottK> cjwatson: There's an ftp-master sprint this week.  I'd expect an announcement about the new source formats soon.
<cjwatson> apw: *clicketyclick* should now
<pitti> nice, thanks
 * pitti commits cjwatson's recent cdbs change to bzr
<cjwatson> sorry, I must have missed the Vcs-Bzr field
<ScottK> cjwatson: I think wgrant has been working on it for Soyuz.
<cjwatson> oh excellent
<cjwatson> yay for wgrant as usual
 * cjwatson finds https://lists.launchpad.net/launchpad-dev/msg01484.html
<apw> cjwatson, :) thanks
<pitti> Riddell: cdbs has some ubuntu changes to kde.mk.in; do we still need that, or are you exclusively using kde4.mk.in now?
<pitti> or ScottK ^
<pitti> (dh_icons, --without-arts, and some kde-xgettext stuff)
<ScottK> We need that
<pitti> ok
<ScottK> I'm 100% sure on --without-arts.  Probable on the others
<Riddell> yep
<pitti> np, keeping it
<Chipzz> Hi, I would like a moment of your time to draw some attention to http://fosdem.org/2010/distrominiconf (a mail has already been sent to Jono :))
<Chipzz> I'm pretty sure there are a lot of topics there where ubuntu can contribute its experience
<pitti> cjwatson, doko_: so, binutils, gcc-4.4, debhelper, and cdbs are in; do you plan more toolchainish uploads?
<cjwatson> doko was talking about perl
<doko_> yep, 5.1 may be good to have in the archive before opening
<cjwatson> ITYM 5.10.1
<doko_> yep ...
<doko_> pitti: but then, with an artificial b-d on the libc version in lucid so that it gets built after that one
<doko_> cjwatson: no PPA's for lucid?
<pitti> oh, right, there was no glibc upload for lucid yet; do you plan one?
<ebroder> Hmm...it looks like not everything got rebuilt for the krb5 1.7 transition (c.f. bug #462059)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462059 in root-system "libkrb53 package required instead of libkrb5-3 in Karmic" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462059
<cjwatson> doko_: not yet, it's later on the checklist
<cjwatson> doko_: if we enable them in general, people will be building them with the karmic toolchain, so we don't enable them until after opening
<doko_> hmm, so no easy eglibc test builds
<cjwatson> pitti: eglibc was already uploaded, wasn't it?
<pitti> ah, silly me, looked for glibc
<doko_> 2.10.1, yes, and I uploaded an 2.11~20091028 as well
<doko_> to a PPA
<m4t> hey, is anyone aware of a way to keep avahi from starting at boot? i tried adding exit to the scripts in /etc/networ/if-, commented out the 'start on' lines in /etc/init, modified symlinks in /etc/rc.N, etc.
<m4t> i'm very unfamiliar with the upstart init system, and i wasn't really able to find out explicit documentation on disabling a service at boot
<joaopinto> m4t, mv /etc/init.d/avahi-daemon.conf mv /etc/init.d/avahi-daemon.conf.disabled
<m4t> joaopinto heh
<m4t> cool
<m4t> lets see
<cjwatson> m4t: commenting out the two 'start on' lines should be sufficient
<m4t> cwjwatson it seemed to undo itself
<m4t> brb thoug
<m4t> excellent, it didn't start up
<m4t> did the trick thank you
<m4t> heh, i spent a few hours rebuilding kernels because i wasn't aware of ext4's need for CONFIG_LBDAF
<m4t> other than that things work pretty well
<joaopinto> just a random thought, could the install process easily be changed to just copy the livecd filesystem structure to the target root partition ?
<Chipzz> isn't that what's basically done anyway?
<joaopinto> I guess that would avoid the overhead of unpacking the .debs
<joaopinto> Chipzz, it is ? doesn't it just run a regular dpkg -i ?
<Chipzz> joaopinto: the live CDs don't have any debs on them in the first place iirc
<joaopinto> ah ok :)
<Chipzz> joaopinto: the alternate installer does; but you were asking about the livecd
<Chipzz> copying the filesystem is a bit of an oversimplicification, but that's what it (basically) boils down to
<joaopinto> right, I was realling thinking about the livecd, I had the wrong idea it had .debs also, I guess that would be too much for a single cd :)
<Chipzz> some packages need to have their postinst ran for obvious reasons, and you need to create a new user
<jdong> I think copying the filesystem is not an oversimplification (tm)
<jdong> it copies the filesystem then performs some post-configuration magic
<Chipzz> jdong: ^^^
<jdong> joaopinto: the Karmic installer definitely will reach out to the 'net to fetch some language packs as debs, if a connection is available
<jdong> copy + magic is a good summary, I guess :)
<joaopinto> eheh
<Chipzz> shouldn't the topic be changed btw? #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-jaunty -> shouldn't that be dapper-karmic?
<joaopinto> I am considering developin a tool to build custom install images, ISOs/USB, but I still need to learn more about initrd and friends :\
* cjwatson changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 9.10 now playing in a theater near you | Archive: ???? | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-karmic | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<joaopinto> right now there is no easy way to build a custom demo cd
<ion> keybuk: Btw, now that lucid is open, https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ion/ubuntu/lucid/mountall/lucid ;-)
<ion> keybuk: (No hurry, really.)
<Keybuk> ion: I'm on leave ;-)
<cjwatson> mvo: trying to set a record for the longest gap between branch creation and merge - having a look at your ubiquity auto-update branch :)
<ion> keybuk: Have a good vacation.
<cjwatson> lp:~cjwatson/ubiquity/auto-update is what I have so far although I haven't tested it yet
<ion> (A quantum superposition of offtopic and ontopic: /me just posted http://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2009/10/msg00154.html)
<mvo> cjwatson: heh :) I'm having a look now
<m4t> hey, so i have an old misnamed custom kernel, and even though its removed/purged, update-initramfs -k all still finds it
<m4t> ive tried querying the dpkg db and looking through the files/filesystem but i wasnt able to find a trace of it
<m4t> i tried strace -f'ing the update-initramfs as well
<mvo> cjwatson: looks good I think, the only thing I can think of is http://paste.ubuntu.com/305206/ (a bug in my original branch)
<m4t> anyone have an idea of where its getting the list of installed/available kernels?
<cjwatson> mvo: makes sense, thanks
<cjwatson> just hitting it with pychecker and waiting for a CD image rsync before I test it (the latter means I probably won't actually test it until next week or so)
<dupondje> somebody can try printing from flash ?
<dupondje> seems like I discovered a small bug
<pedro_> jdstrand, hello, were you looking into evince apparmor bugs?
<jdstrand> pedro_: which are you referring to?
<jdong> it's not a bug, it's just really secure (tm) ;-)
<pedro_> jdstrand, bug 465192
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 465192 in evince "Evince can't open .tif files - Permission denied" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/465192
<jdstrand> pedro_: is that the only one?
<jdstrand> pedro_: other than the ones I have already commented on/triaged
<pedro_> jdstrand, and a crash that might be related to apparmor as well bug 461747
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461747 in evince "evince crashed with signal 7" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461747
<pedro_> jdstrand, no just those
<pedro_> jdstrand, right, I've been see you doing work there that's why i'm asking ;-)
<jdstrand> pedro_: I noticed you removed that apparmor tag from the first one. when triaging, if you see that an application is protected by apparmor, and it is apparmor that is causing the problem, please add/leave the apparmor tag
<jdstrand> pedro_: we changed this around slightly in DebuggingApparmor lately
<pedro_> jdstrand, good to know, will do it
<jdstrand> pedro_: there is no evidence that bug #461747 is apparmor related
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 461747 in evince "evince crashed with signal 7" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/461747
<jdstrand> pedro_: I've taken the other one
<pedro_> jdstrand, ok, will follow up with the reporter on that one then
<pedro_> jdstrand, thanks for checking!
<jdstrand> pedro_: you can see more in DebuggingApparmor, but it is easy to spot an apparmor related issue by looking in kern.log for deny messages
<pedro_> jdstrand, thanks will have a look into it
<jdstrand> pedro_: evince now has an apport hook, so it will grab the kern.log messages
<jdstrand> pedro_: notice in 461747 it references that apparmor is enabled, but no denials
<jdstrand> pedro_: basically, what you see in 461747 is that apparmor is not a problem
<pedro_> jdstrand, got it
<jdstrand> cool
<pedro_> thanks again :-)
<jdstrand> pedro_: thanks for the ping
<jdstrand> sure! :)
<jdong> hmm how do we plan on addressing the whole issue with evince reading documents in odd places?
<jdong> (and/or with odd names)
<dupondje> somebody can try printing from flash ?
<jdstrand> jdong: it should be mostly fixed, no?
<jdstrand> jdong: excepting tunables, which we hope to discuss at UDS
<dupondje> [ 1257.542387] type=1503 audit(1256922342.551:29): operation="exec" pid=3525 parent=3524 profile="/usr/lib/firefox-3.5.*/firefox" requested_mask="::x" denied_mask="::x" fsuid=1000 ouid=0 name="/usr/bin/lpstat"
<dupondje> [ 1772.875058] type=1503 audit(1256922857.881:30): operation="open" pid=3706 parent=2137 profile="/usr/sbin/cupsd" requested_mask="::r" denied_mask="::r" fsuid=7 ouid=0 name="/var/run/samba/gencache.tdb"
<dupondje> having the following when trying to print from Flash
<dupondje> and it doesn't find any printers with apparmor loaded
<jdstrand> dupondje: you mean as in the adobe flash plugin?
<dupondje> yep
<dupondje> but i'm using the 64bit addon (manually installed) from labs.adobe
<jdstrand> dupondje: the first is the one we care about
<dupondje> dunno if it has something to do with that :)
<jdstrand> dupondje: possibly
<dupondje> someobdy with the 32bit need to check ti
<jdstrand> dupondje: can you add to /etc/apparmor.d/usr.bin.firefox-3.5:
<jdstrand>   /usr/bin/lpstat Ux,
<jdstrand> dupondje: then run:
<jdstrand> sudo apparmor_parser -r /etc/apparmor.d/usr.bin.firefox-3.5
<jdstrand> dupondje: also, please file a bug at your earliest convenience, and use the 'apparmor' tag
<JanC> I hope nobody uses the 32-bit plugin  ;)
<kirkland> jcastro: yo
<kirkland> jcastro: question about patches.ubuntu.com
<jcastro> kirkland: sure
<kirkland> jcastro: i have some people asking about something similar, but more against upstream, than debian
<kirkland> jcastro: upstream kvm wants to be able to easily see what patches we're carrying
<kirkland> jcastro: without apt-get source :-)
<jcastro> kirkland: it's on my todo to discuss with the lp team, I have a call on tuesday with karl, I'll discuss
<kirkland> jcastro: cool
<jcastro> thanks for the prod though, it's a good idea
<kirkland> jcastro: in the mean time, i'll get qemu-kvm into a package source branch
<slangasek> bzr co lp:ubuntu/qemu-kvm/lucid - no apt-get source ;)
<sistpoty> kirkland: just out of curiousity: have you heard of Alexander Graf yet? (seem to be the SuSE person for virtualisation)
<kirkland> sistpoty: yeah, i hung out with him a few times at Linux Plumbers conf a few weeks ago
<sistpoty> ah, I see... :)
 * sistpoty met him last saturday, however didn't really realize it
<kirkland> sistpoty: :-)  yeah, he seemed like a great guy
<kirkland> sistpoty: i love what he's doing with nested virtualization
<kirkland> slangasek: good call
<sistpoty> kirkland: haven't heard about that one yet, but that he wants to clean up / unify virtualisation stuff... not too sure if that plan succeeds though ;)
<Ng> is there a plan for the non-booting installs because of the duplicate partition signatures? (bug #426027)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 426027 in util-linux "/dev/disk/by-uuid doesn't exist in karmic kernels" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/426027
<Ng> like, could jaunty be updated to clear up duplicate signatures based on what's actually mounted?
<Ng> at least for the rootfs
<slangasek> hum, does the kernel even tell us that?
<slangasek> /proc/mounts always just says "rootfs"
<slangasek> Ng: does the git version of blkid fix it for you also?
<slangasek> seems like we ought to be taking that as an SRU
<slangasek> (the fixes, anyway)
<Ng> slangasek: it's not my system, but the symptoms are identical to the person in that bug, it was an old install that wipes out a windows install, so it's showing ext and vfat indications
<Ng> slangasek: I'm boggling massively at that rootfs thing ;)
<Ng> what possible use is that?!
<slangasek> oh, things are supposed to be useful
 * slangasek makes a note
<Ng> useful or pretty :)
<cjwatson> rootfs is for the initramfs root, no?
<Ng> hey yeah, I have a mount for / too
<slangasek> oh, ok
<slangasek> that's better than what I remember, then
<dupondje> jdstrand: report bug to apparmor
<dupondje> or flashplugin ?
<Ng> also I'm curious if there's something that affected people can do after they hack out the UUIDs and boot again, to restore sanity to their partitions?
<dupondje> bug flashplugin is bit tricky ? as I don't use the real flashplugin package ...
<dtchen> mdz: I don't know offhand if there's a bug filed affecting grub/grub2. I do know, however, that it seems like every other "no sound" bug filed against alsa-driver in the past couple days has been "oh, you're still running Jaunty's kernel in Karmic", and having the reporter actually boot Karmic's kernel resolves the issue.
<dtchen> mdz: in terms of verbose logging for PA, it's very chatty at that level, so I'm not sure how to address that without having the bug reporter actually follow a separate debugging path (as happens now with the wiki page). Suggestions welcome!
<wgrant> cjwatson: I got Soyuz accepting, building and publishing the new source formats a couple of days ago, but I need to add lots of tests and clean things up a bit.
<wgrant> Since Debian has it switched on now, I might see if I can get it landed in 3.1.10... or at least the bits that will make it easy to CP later.
<wgrant> But does anybody have any idea when Debian will start accepting them?
<Shockrates> hello
<Shockrates> i want to contact the ubuntu developer team
<Shockrates> because there is a newer version of sagemath available 4.2 and the package available in the repositories is version 3.1
<Shockrates> can you make the new package?
<sebner> wb sistpoty :D
<sistpoty> re sebner
<sebner> sistpoty: have you heard about the karmic linux ext4 bug?
<Shockrates> whats that
<sistpoty> sebner: heard: yes, but ignored since I'm a late adopter of new filesystems and am still on ext3
<Shockrates> guys
<sebner> sistpoty: ah, /me uses ext4 since jaunty *g* but if I encounter this bug (only happens with new installs) somebody is going to die :P
<sebner> !backports | Shockrates
<ubottu> Shockrates: If new updated Ubuntu packages are built for an application, then they may go into Ubuntu Backports. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports - See also !packaging
<Shockrates> we would like sagemath 4.2 as a package in the repositories pleaase
<Diddleha> Try to edit a source file using ubuntu's GNU/MC. Fix it so that it uses the internal editor (not nano) and ill write 10 more applications for you.
<sistpoty> Diddleha: mc? you mean midnight commander?
<Shockrates> sebner: so do i report a bug and ask for it?
<Diddleha> http://mange.dynalias.org/linux/misc/GNU-MC-Fixes
<Diddleha> sistpoty: yes
<ebroder> Any ubuntu-installer experts around? I'm trying to do an unattended install of Hardy, but with no bootloader. grub-installer/skip works, but even if I set lilo-installer/skip, it still tries to install LILO
<sebner> Shockrates: well, you first have to wait/ask until Debian has this version and then sync over to ubuntu lucid (9.10) and then request a backport
<Diddleha> sistpoty: My patch fixes the program, in that itll not show visible tabs and spaces etc (Cant code using it then). Problem is, it breaks the German Umlauts.
<Diddleha> http://mange.dynalias.org/linux/misc/GNU-MC-Fixes/mc-remove-visible-tabs-n-dots.patch
<sistpoty> Diddleha: that's bad, I like umlauts (I'm German) :P... nontheless taking a closer look
<Shockrates> sebner: the binary is available at the site as well as the source. what do we need debian for?
<Diddleha> Oswald buddenhagen destroyed it for some reason. Perhaps to fix it.
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Thanks!
<sebner> Shockrates: let that the Debian Maintainer know
<Shockrates> sebner: by the way if i download the binary, how can i just enter sage and make it load? have to copy it to /usr/bin or something?
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Do KDE guys usually get into the GNU so they can destory things btw ?
<sebner> Shockrates: run it with ./foo ?
<sebner> ah
<sebner> Shockrates: create a shellscript which starts sage
<sebner> and copy that into /usr/bin
<Diddleha> sistpoty: He asked what we used first, and then destroyed it.
<sistpoty> Diddleha: sorry, not too sure I understand the relationship (not that involved with mc development myself)
<Shockrates> sebner: lets say that sage is under desktop folder. what then the script would be?
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Maybe ill take some friends with me and join KDE /hehe ... naah, thatd be equally evil.
<sebner> Shockrates: ./home/foo/sage-binary
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Just fix what that guy caused and ill be happy.
<sistpoty> Diddleha: imo the fix looks sane, but I'm not too sure if it's worth an SRU for karmic...
<sistpoty> Diddleha: does the same regexp still exist for 2:4.7.0-pre1-3 ?
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Ive been coding using that fix, or as it was some years ago.
<sistpoty> Diddleha: because we most likely will merging that from unstable
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Its the same
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Thank you buddy, lets make this work.
<Diddleha> Would it help if i talk to my Debian developers as well ?
<Diddleha> Too speed things up and such ?
<sistpoty> Diddleha: actually I was about to ask you to do it ;)
<sistpoty> Diddleha: that way we can get the fix in "for free" by merging the newer debian version
<Diddleha> Ok.
<sistpoty> thanks Diddleha!
<Diddleha> Its in an appalling state atm, its time to make things right. Nw
<Diddleha> sistpoty: the regular "vi" or "nano" etc actually works as expected, but im not sure how anyone could edit any file using this hybrid GNU/MC.
<Diddleha> I had to recompile a new version for all oses because it seems the gnu was inhabited by, well... one jerk. If this Oswald Buddenhagen is here id like to have a chat in all friendlyness ?
<geofft> Shockrates: The Debian maintainer is a friend of mine; he says if you e-mail him he'll look at upgrading the Debian version
<geofft> the e-mail address in Original-Maintainer: works
<Shockrates> geofft: ok whats his email address?
<geofft> tabbott@mit.edu
<Shockrates> cant you tell him to do it?
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Im working with some governments to make people get some moniesfor their efforts in making the best systems ever. I hope anyone would enjoy that type of a deal ?
<Roey> hey all
<Roey> does Ubuntu ship with a 'nocd' boot-time kernel option?
<geofft> I assume he'll forget without an e-mail.
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Microsoft coders get much monies and most of those arent very good at all ;)
<Diddleha> sistpoty: I think, that we as the people deserve to get a bit of money for our _better_ and _secure_ works
<Diddleha> sistpoty: To be fair ive earned a total of 51 euros in 10 years. But i have high hopes for google ads .. heh :)
<sistpoty> Diddleha: I'm sorry, but I'm not too sure I can follow you (either with your Microsoft comment nor with your comment about money)
<Diddleha> sistpoty: That said im a gowd in many operators eyes.
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Affirmative
<Diddleha> Hey, its that all saints evening tonight right ?
<Diddleha> Fax me a mask :)
 * sistpoty feels the discussion has started to be a little bit offtopic for ubuntu-devel though
<Diddleha> The man behind the mask! :)
<Diddleha> Sorry mate. ill downplay
<sistpoty> thanks
<Diddleha> Np
<Diddleha> I always figure, since noone is talking i can / we can etc. I can remember back in 1994-95 when people where afraid of chatting in public. Humans should never be afraid, then something is way wrong.
<Diddleha> Synaptic crashed in karmic. Forgot to update the the libs as usual ?
<Diddleha> Ability to play VOB's was lost. Other then that it seems very nice.
<Diddleha> divx works
<joaopinto> !ot | Diddleha
<ubottu> Diddleha: #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, for all Ubuntu-related support questions. Please use #ubuntu-offtopic for other topics. Thanks!
<Diddleha> WooHaw!!!
<YokoZar> Am I crazy, or did adding ppa:foo/ppa  to Software Sources once add the key as well?
<ScottK> YokoZar: You say that like the two are mutally exclusive.
<Diddleha> Hmm, i cant play .VOB files after the upgrade to Karmic. What can i do ?
<YokoZar> !ot | Diddleha
<ubottu> Diddleha: #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, for all Ubuntu-related support questions. Please use #ubuntu-offtopic for other topics. Thanks!
<Diddleha> YokoOhno
<YokoZar> ScottK: what I mean is just adding the ppa would also add the key.  The current behavior seems to give the usual key not found warnings
<wgrant> YokoZar: It does, as long as the key server isn't broken.
<wgrant> But it probably is at the moment.
<ScottK> I wonder if you can change the key server is uses to one that's actually reliable (the LP keys are mirrored to other keyservers)
<wgrant> pool.sks-keyservers.net is good.
<Diddleha> YokoZar: Where is this "ScottK" you apparently see ?
<Roey> hi
<Roey> Does Ubuntu have a 'nocd' boot option?
<ScottK> Roey: Support is in #ubuntu.
<Wombleness> hey you guys make ubuntu ay
<ccheney> i just saw an example of the weird 3/4 high application view bug
<ccheney> i saw a report of it on OOo before but this was with evince
<ccheney> it shows up as ~ 3/4" tall with a gap at the top and the bar buttons only work if you click where they should be, not where they are being painted at
<ccheney> er not 3/4" 3/4 of the height it should be
 * ccheney bbl
<Wombleness> mark shuttleworth is a sexist poo butt stinky
<Amaranth> ccheney: wonder what is happening in the compiz animation plugin to cause that...
<Amaranth> sounds like it's missing the final damage event
#ubuntu-devel 2009-10-31
<Diddleha> Cosmic Coala... everything is AllRight but .VOBS. Tell me how i can enjoy my evening if you please ?
<MsMaco> Diddleha: this still isnt a support channel...
<Diddleha> Ive coded way many more lines then you ever have. Infest me not ;)
<wgrant> Still not a support channel.
<Diddleha> Ms: You have something twitchingly wrong about you ?
<Diddleha> wgrant, Sorry... we make this work
<lifeless> #ubuntu for support
<wgrant> Diddleha: Be nice, thankyou.
<Diddleha> Accepted
<Diddleha> .
<MsMaco> did you just read Ms as multiple sclerosis?
<Diddleha> wgrant: I suggest AbbA ?
<wgrant> Diddleha: Pardon?
<Diddleha> MsMaco: You arent even close
<sistpoty> Diddleha: please, that's all not helpful
<Diddleha> I like to donate billions each year from your tax paying dollars ;)
<sistpoty> !ops
<ubottu> Help! bhale, infinity, Hobbsee, jdub, thom, fooishbar, fabbione, mdz, lamont, or Keybuk
<sistpoty> enough of that, Diddleha
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Some appear not as they seem to be. Request acknowledged.
<Turl> hello, anyone who knows how to read bootcharts?
<Diddleha> sistpoty: I cannot work for you given the tools you give me. If this didnt sadden me i dont know what would. Pardon me if i need to takedown some evils. My quest has just begun to make codings and coders the main men and wimen of the irken worlds. We are sorry for the takedowns so far, we loved them.
<Diddleha> sistpoty: Its how it always was.
<Diddleha> ryu2 <- begone
<ryu2> Ã¤hm?
<Diddleha> Ãhem
<Diddleha> ryu2: You can stay for a while
<Diddleha> :)
<bazhang> Diddleha, please desist
<ryu> it may be the time, but i cannot follow you
<Diddleha> Bballhang seems frisky tonight :)
<Diddleha> Cosmic Coala has issues, please save the Coalas
<niko> Diddleha: please can you keep this channel friendly ?
<Diddleha> niko: keep it GNU/Linux friewndly
<Diddleha> niko: keep it GNU/Linux friendly.
<nalioth> hi niko
<geofft> !ops
<ubottu> Help! bhale, infinity, Hobbsee, jdub, thom, fooishbar, fabbione, mdz, lamont, or Keybuk
<nalioth> geofft: hi
<niko> hi
<nalioth> why all the excitement?
<niko> Diddleha: what's wrong please ?
<Diddleha> you seem to be angry at something you know little about, such as GNU/Linux and or BSD ?
<Diddleha> nalioth: *Yawn* as usual
<nalioth> geofft: why are you calling the ops?
<niko> not really, but can you read the topic Diddleha ?
<geofft> see sistpoty's summon earlier, and logs
<Diddleha> niko: Are you saying im blind but all ive done for the past 10 years is code for OSS ?
<nalioth> geofft: :(  i just got here  :(
<Diddleha> niko: Are you my grandma or something ?
<Diddleha> :)
<nalioth> Diddleha: are you trolling?
<joaopinto> just ignore him until a op joins, he is just trolling, don't feed him
<nalioth> joaopinto: i am an op
<niko> Diddleha: please, follow channel topic or /part from here
<joaopinto> oh, so what are you waitinf for :P ?
<lifeless> nalioth: hi, Diddleha is being disruptive, and we're failing at communicating this to them
<nalioth> Diddleha: is this true?
<lifeless> nalioth: I can paste you a recent log if that would help, from before you joined
<Diddleha> nalioth: Well, if you wanted to boot non-microsoft coders... i guess they can win this one ?
<nalioth> lifeless: irclogs has it  :)
<Diddleha> For 25 years you have not yet learned. Im looking forward to coding for you for the next 55 years
<Diddleha> :)
<Diddleha> Some of you seem weird though :)
<MsMaco> O_o
 * nalioth prefers "eccentric"  :P
<sistpoty> thanks again, nalioth... and sorry again for feeding the trolll in teh first place
<nalioth> sistpoty: they can sneak up on ya  :)
<sistpoty> heh
<damo22> i just created a working kernel module patch to support a new high end sound card... how do i package it into an ubuntu kernel module?
<damo22> eg, i dont want to have to tell people to recompile an entire kernel just to use my module, i would like them to be able to compile it using module-assistant
<Turl> damo22: they can just reinstall alsa-driver
<emgent> ccheney: ping :)
<emgent> i prefer talk here, do not like facebook simil messaging
<ccheney> emgent: ah ok :)
<ccheney> http://www.openofficemouse.com/ <- thinks usability people would die after seeing this
<emgent> ;)
<emgent> big lol
<emgent> ccheney: how goes?
<ccheney> pretty good, getting ready for my trip, printing out everything i need :)
<lifeless> ccheney: a spoof :)
<emgent> heheh nice ;)
<ccheney> lifeless: uh i'm pretty sure its real, there is a talk about it at OOoCon
<ccheney> lifeless: it should be a spoof
<lifeless> ccheney: the links at the bottom go nowhere
<emgent> ccheney: i suggest to you to prepare your body to dring a really nice wine ;)
<lifeless> ccheney: except one to 'intellivision lives'
<ccheney> lifeless: ah, heh :)
<ccheney> emgent: ok
<emgent> ah ccheney, i do not know if you know, but seems that Microsoft people come to ODF Plug Fest
<wolfe> thank you all who contributed :) Just upgraded, spectacular. First thing I tried was plugging up a monitor on my intel based gfx card on my notebook, worked without restarting the X server.
<dupondje> hmz, can't even bugreport anymore on lauchpad
<dupondje> timeout ...
<dupondje> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox-3.5/+bug/466228
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 466228 in firefox-3.5 "Printing from flash doesn't find printers do to to strict apparmor rules" [Undecided,New]
<dupondje> asac: you might want to check it
<dupondje> already added the fix ;)
<mdz> dtchen, I've sent some email regarding the kernel version issue, which according to maco seems to be fixed by running update-grub
<mdz> dtchen, regarding verbose logging for PA, we could set up an interactive apport hook which would restart pulseaudio with debugging enabled, prompt the user to reproduce their bug, then put everything back and attach the logs
<caio> i'm having some troubles with karmic upgrade
<caio> http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1355/karmicgnomepanel.png
<caio> can't understand this "line" over the panel, and it appears on login screen too..
<caio> and this network icon is so ugly, lol
<caio> most ugly think that I ever see
<caio> and programs "closes unexpected" every time
<asac> dupondje: please subscribe jdstrand to that bug
<Shockrates> hello developers. sagemath 4.2 is available in the site, and we still have 3.1 in our repos.
<Shockrates> do something.....
<joaopinto> Shockrates, the best place to talk about universe repos packages is #ubuntu-motu :)
<Shockrates> but you are the maintainers
<Shockrates> so this is the best place
<cjwatson> Shockrates: #ubuntu-motu maintains packages in universe
<Shockrates> ok
<Shockrates> fedora is way ahead of us
<cjwatson> actually, in general it's best to simply file a bug
<cjwatson> IRC is very dependent on somebody who's interested happening to be online at the right time
<cjwatson> and indeed there is bug 369089
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 369089 in sagemath "sagemath debs are old (more than half year behind upstream)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/369089
<ebroder> Any ubuntu-installer experts around? I'm trying to do an unattended install of Hardy, but with no bootloader. grub-installer/skip works, but even if I set lilo-installer/skip, it still tries to install LILO
<ebroder> I tried comparing the lilo-installer and grub-installer source, but I can't figure out where the skip options are supposed to trigger in the first place
<cjwatson> ebroder: that feature wasn't in hardy
<cjwatson> it was added in intrepid
<ebroder> cjwatson: Huh - really? It's in the Hardy docs
<cjwatson> yes, but the code was broken
<cjwatson> lilo-installer (1.27) unstable; urgency=low
<cjwatson>   * Fix check for lilo-installer/skip. Closes: #471130.
<ebroder> Damn
<ebroder> Is it worth even trying to put an SRU together, or would people be too sketched out by it?
<cjwatson> I'd be OK with that
<ebroder> Ok, I'll see what I can come up with
<cjwatson> you can work around it though
<cjwatson> d-i preseed/early_command string echo "sed -i '1a. /usr/share/debconf/confmodule' /var/lib/dpkg/info/lilo-installer.isinstallable" >> /var/lib/dpkg/info/download-installer.postinst
<cjwatson> ... I think
<ebroder> Haha, ok. I'll play around with that
<cjwatson> the fix is revision 373.1.491 in lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/lilo-installer/ubuntu
<sebner> dtchen: ok, I newly installed karmic and have no sound (jaunty yes) anything I can do?
<SingAlong> is there anyway to disable notifications or atleast change its settings?
<dupondje> asac: done
<dupondje> :)
<caio> can anyone help? http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1355/karmicgnomepanel.png
<dtchen> mdz: what does "put everything back" mean? Are you proposing restarting PA?
<dtchen> sebner: err, I don't understand. Do you mean that you dist-upgraded from 9.04?
<sebner> dtchen: no, new install but I found the "workaround" in your blog. killall slmodemd
<dtchen> sebner: well, you could also use module-detect instead of module-udev-detect
<sebner> dtchen: how where?
<dtchen> also covered in the blog post
<dtchen> i.e., edit ~/.pulse/default.pa or /etc/pulse/default.pa
<sebner> dtchen: well, documented to edit the files but not what ^^
<dtchen> sebner: sorry, but is "use module-detect instead of module-udev-detect" unclear? The file has a pretty distinct section for it.
<sebner> dtchen: just comment out the 3 lines of *udev?
<dtchen> sebner: sure, including the appropriate conditional
<dtchen> sebner: it's also possible to avoid editing /etc/pulse/default.pa and use pacmd/pactl
<sebner> dtchen: wondering about the .else since it didn't work evidently ^^
<mdz> dtchen, yes, restarting PA
<mdz> dtchen, is there a reason why that might not be a good idea?
<sebner> dtchen: btw, it shows me -30dB
<dtchen> mdz: I presume we'd tell the user that everything connected to PA will die?
<dtchen> sebner: you could also do something at runtime like (hacky): pactl unload-module $(pactl list|grep -B1 'Name: module-udev-detect'|head -1|awk -F# '{print $2}') && pactl load-module module-detect
<mdz> dtchen, yes, this would be an apport-driven debugging session
<sebner> dtchen: nah, I'll stick with edited pulse conf then ^^
<mdz> (I'm assuming it's not possible to adjust the logging level at runtime; if it is, we don't need to restart)
<dtchen> mdz: not that I've seen
<dtchen> also, I should push my one-liner against lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu/karmic/apport/ubuntu/
<dtchen> +    report['AlsaVersion'] = command_output(['cat','/proc/asound/version'])
<dtchen> e.g., this is necessary to direct people to install linux-backports-modules-alsa-karmic-generic
<dtchen> mdz: WRT JackSense, I don't know if the best place is via an apport hook -- maybe checkbox instead?
<sebner> dtchen: anyways, thanks for your help! :)
<dtchen> sebner: np
<dtchen> sebner: be aware that using module-detect will lose hot(un)plugging of audio devices
<sebner> dtchen: grrr. define "audio devices" I'm just using a laptop
<dtchen> sebner: well, anything capable of audio playback or capture, e.g., usb headset, webcam, etc.
<sebner> grml
<dtchen> i.e., if you use module-detect, plugging in (or removing) a usb headset won't register automatically
<sebner> dtchen: wondering about jaunty where everything worked
<dtchen> sebner: welcome to the world of upgrades involving udev changes, linux changes, and pulseaudio changes
<sebner> dtchen: heh, I suppose the motto is : "With lucid it'll get better" ?
<dtchen> it's pretty simple though -- just unload and reload module-detect to pick it up
<dtchen> heh, yeah, "better with lucid"
<sebner> ^^
<dtchen> hmm
<dtchen> it appears that some users are choosing to keep an existing grub conffile when prompted during upgrade
<dtchen> e.g., https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-driver/+bug/465937/comments/3
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 465937 in alsa-driver "Sound card is not recoignized (it's listed by lspci and lshw -C multimedia but not in gnome). When booting a crack can be eard but nothing more. no sound at all." [Undecided,Invalid]
<amgarchIn9> hi, is there a way to get a better diagnostic of system freezes? How do you usually trace bugs in the kernel?
<MsMaco> dtchen: i dont remember being asked that when i upgraded ada...
<dtchen> I haven't ever been prompted either
<dtchen> anyhow, trying to reproduce in vbox
<tormod> amgarchIn9, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/KernelTeamBugPolicies (maybe also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingKernelOops)
<Gizmo_the_Great> \join #ubuntu-devel
<Gizmo_the_Great> oops :-)
<hyperair>  / not \
<hyperair> and you're already in to begin with..
<Gizmo_the_Great> Hi. Doing some work using the memory analysis tool 'pcat' (part of The Coroners Toolkit). Using following syntax to analyse memory of the process : pcat 1234 | strings | less (where 1234 is the process ID of ecryptfs-kthrea). But it seems to prevent it. Am I doing something wrong, or is this part of eCryptFS, for security reasons?
<Gizmo_the_Great> I am asking at #ecryptsfs too, but that only has a few members
<geofft> Did you say kthread?
<geofft> I would be highly surprised if pcat works on kthreads. kthreads live entirely in kernelspace and IIRC have no userspace mm structure at all
<Gizmo_the_Great> geofft: It returns : "pcat: ptrace PTRACE_ATTACH : Operation not permitted". IS that a permissions thing, or due to the fact that it's empty (as you say) do you think?
<Gizmo_the_Great> Also, what is a userspace mm structure (forgive me, relatively new to this area)
<geofft> oh, you're ptracing it. Yeah, that won't work either
<geofft> For normal processes, the kernel keeps track of a bunch of information userspace needs, including what memory userspace has mapped
<geofft> For kernel threads, because they only have kernel memory, the structure to track userspace memory doesn't exist
<geofft> Also, ptrace works for the most part by tracking system calls. Since kernel threads never work in userspace, system calls don't exist for them
<Gizmo_the_Great> geofft: I have just read this : http://www.linfo.org/kernel_space.html and that all makes sense now, along with your explanation. Many thanks
<geofft> Basically all the usual things you can do to processes other than look at them in ps don't apply to kernel threads.
<geofft> Sure, np
<geofft> Ah, yes, the definition of kernelspace is useful :)
<Gizmo_the_Great> So are we saying, basically, that because ecryptfs is part of the Linux Kernel, it is effectively inaccessible by the normal user?
<jdong> not by the normal user (well for non-root users that's pretty true too), but not by the tools you are using which are designed primarily for userspace processes
<Gizmo_the_Great> can I was what ptrace is? If you were writing a paper, and you started with "The Pcat program uses ptrace which is a...."
<Gizmo_the_Great> ?
<jdong> more or less a process debugger/manipulator/inspecter.
<geofft> interface for one process to inspect (and modify) other processes
<geofft> Hm, between those two answers I think we paraphrased the first paragraph of the manpage :)
<jdong> lol indeed
<Gizmo_the_Great> many thanks gents
<jdong> no probs. Happy exploring :)
<Gizmo_the_Great> how can you capture ram on Linux using dd? dd if=/dev/mem of=test results in only a 1Mb file?
<Gizmo_the_Great> guess I am capturing the wrong thing?
<geofft> I kind of doubt that will work... (also, last time I checked, either mem or kmem was broken. dunno if that's been fixed or WONTFIXed)
<geofft> are you familiar with the distinction between physical and virtual memory?
<geofft> and how different processes can see different views of memory?
<Gizmo_the_Great> geofft: not massively, no. I am using virtual machines (VMWare) to conduct my tests, so I could examine the vmem file of a puased virtual machine. But I was hoping to do it 'neat' on a Linux machine.
<geofft> mmm. I'm trying to find a good reference but I'm having trouble finding one that's concise
<geofft> I guess for /dev/mem it doesn't much apply...
<dtchen> pitti: / mdz: sorry about the spurious merge proposal. Apparently the wrong radio button was selected. :(
<sebner> dtchen: the problem I'm seeing now that the gnome-volume-applet disappered, terminal says: ** (gnome-volume-control-applet:2511): WARNING **: Connection failed, reconnecting...
<sebner> dtchen: also suffering from bug #301755
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 301755 in pulseaudio "Crackling noise after update to pulseaudio" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/301755
<mdke> cjwatson: I'm building the installation-guide for help.u.c from lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/installation-guide/ubuntu but it seems to be for jaunty? am i getting it from the wrong place/
<dupondje> jdstrand: you checked the bug ? ;Ã 
<sebner> dtchen: uhh. fixed the issue. completly removed the software modem stuff (Never used it anyways)
<hyperair> dtchen: there?
<hyperair> dtchen: is headphone jack detection in between suspend/resume supposed to work?
<hyperair> i.e. stick in the headphones so speakers get muted, suspend, unplug headphones, and resume like that (speakers end up staying muted)
<kklimonda> what is the most probable cause of user running 2.6.28 kernel on 9.10 after upgrade?
<dupondje> how you mean ?
<kklimonda> dupondje, well, they are still running 9.04 kernel on 9.10 system (2.6.28 instead of 2.6.31)
<dupondje> all packages upgraded ?
<kklimonda> dupondje, they say that it's upgraded system - I assume that they are
<dupondje> dpkg --list |grep linux-image ?
<kklimonda> dupondje, I'm just trying to find out :)
<kklimonda> dupondje, he has .31 installed but his menu.lst only have .28 listed..
<dupondje> update-grub
<dupondje> :)
<kklimonda> grub.conf is empty.. don't know if it's right after upgrade from 9.04
<dupondje> grub.conf ?!
<kklimonda> .cfg
<dupondje> grub2 or grub1 using ?
<kklimonda> dupondje, I guess he's using grub1 - wasn't it supposed to stay after upgrade?
<dupondje> yea prolly
<dupondje> but then why is there grub.cfg :)
<dupondje> dpkg --list |grep grub
<JanC> kklimonda: it's a well-known bug by now, but AFAIK it's not known yet what causes it  ;)
<JanC> kklimonda: at least some of them had grub2 installed before upgrade
<dupondje> well known bug ?
<JanC> as in: a lot of people reported it  ã
<ion> tsu?
<JanC> dupondje: it breaks audio & other things because of udev changes & such, so peopel report bugs agains audio...
<JanC> ion: sorry for the Katakana "smiley" abuse  ;-)
<dupondje> some people :)
<dupondje> btw, you know how to debug nautilus ?
<dupondje> trying to debug SynCE gvfs plugin :P
<cjwatson> mdke: *blush* I never did get round to updating it non-trivially this cycle
<cjwatson> wow, that was kind of crap of me
<eboyjr> I made a patch (kinda) for appearance-effects.c in gnome-control-center: http://pastie.org/678374
<eboyjr> A simple change for a simple settings manager
<eboyjr> I haven't tested it since I am not familiar enough with Debian's system (how to compile it and run it)
<JanC> there is some explanation on the wiki about how to do that
<eboyjr> JanC: Okay /PackagingGuide/PatchSystems looks good
#ubuntu-devel 2009-11-01
<hdon> where can i find the revision control source code repository for the gnome system monitor panel applet?
<cjwatson> hdon: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/gnome-system-monitor/ubuntu
<hdon> cjwatson: thanks :D
<hdon> ugh... another revision control system to learn... i might have to forget one of them to make room for another
<wgrant> Do we want to preserve lzma tarball support for 3.0 sources, or drop it like Debian did last week?
<wgrant> hdon: The only one I know really well now is bzr. I use its plugins to interact with other VCSes.
<hdon> wgrant: hm, that sounds like an interesting capability..
<hdon> so i guess it providers a user interface abstraction for accessing multiple types of revision control systems then?
<wgrant> hdon: eg. bzr-svn and bzr-git allow me to seamlessly interact with svn and git repositories through bzr.
<wgrant> Right.
<hdon> that's a cool idea. thanks for telling me :)
<wgrant> It is pretty nice.
<cjwatson> wgrant: lzma is mostly important for the .deb, I think
<lifeless> zx-utils conflicts with lzma
<lifeless> FWIW
<wgrant> zx-utils exists?
<lifeless> apt-get install it :)
<wgrant> I tried to.
<wgrant> But it doesn't exist.
<wgrant> LP has never heard of it.
<lifeless> xz-utils
<wgrant> Ah.
<wgrant> But it Provides it as well.
<wgrant> cjwatson: So shall I follow Debian and not support lzma sources?
<cjwatson> wgrant: there doesn't seem a pressing need to diverge on this
<cjwatson> so I would say yes
<wgrant> cjwatson: OK. Thanks.
<JanC> wgrant: are you working on the xz-utils package?
<wgrant> JanC: No. I'm working on Debian source format 3.0 in LP.
<JanC> ah, okay, just asking because I just filed a bug against it (it overwrites a file from lzip)
<JanC> well, tries to  ;)
<Whoopie> pitti, apw: Hi, I added a debdiff to bug 427217 to fix the FTBFS for openwsman. Could you please have a look? Thanks a lot.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 427217 in openwsman "FTBFS in karmic" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/427217
<ScottK> wgrant: Porting to xz-utils should be on the TODO for Lucid.
<wgrant> ScottK: How do you mean?
<ScottK> wgrant: It's my understanding that xz-utils is superceding the old lzma lib.  We have it in Main for Karmic because KDE already switched.
<iWolf> Attention:
<iWolf> We are getting many reports about sound
<iWolf> Alot of them reporting for 9.10
<lifeless> check they booted with the right kernel
<lifeless> if they didn't (booted with intrepid kernel) run sudo update-grub and reboot
<iWolf> So current kernel is:
<iWolf> Alright
<iWolf> Ill check
<iWolf> â¢sorenâ¢
<iWolf> So
<iWolf> sorry
<iWolf> sudo update-grub
<iWolf> Or is it apt-get
<RAOF> iWolf: What's your actual question?  In order to determine the running kernel you can use "uname -a".  The Karmic kernel will be 2.6.31-14-something, the Intrepid kernel will be 2.6.28-something-something.
<iWolf> Current kernel for 9.10
<iWolf> Im getting many bug reports about no sound in 9.10
<iWolf> I closed one about Intel HDA sound
<iWolf> And directed them here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HdaIntelSoundHowto
<lifeless> iWolf: so there is a known problem, if you boot the intrepid kernel, sound won't work.
<iWolf> Correct
<lifeless> iWolf: and for some reason update-manager isn't running update-grub properly
<iWolf> So Mark All Of 'Em With A Problem With The Distro
<lifeless> no
<iWolf> So,
<iWolf> Close em
<lifeless> so verify what is going on
<lifeless> with each one
<iWolf> Ok
<iWolf> Most of the ones i peak at are all 9.10
<lifeless> if their sound works after they run update-grub, close it.
<lifeless> if their sounds doesn't work then something else is wrong
<iWolf> sudo update-grub
<lifeless> sudo update-grub and then reboot
<wgrant> Is update-grub the right command for GRUB2?
<lifeless> wgrant: I don't know; I had this problem, AFAICT I'm still running grub1
<iWolf> We got a complaint
<iWolf> Take a look at it here:
<iWolf> http://ubuntu.pastebin.com/f7b71cb9b
<iWolf> Schedule a meeting for the sound problems?
<lifeless> iWolf: no
<lifeless> there simply needs to be a bug that the upgrade isn't leaving the menu.lst correctly - devs can work on that, perhaps make it critical.
<iWolf> Ok
<iWolf> Thank you
<lifeless> other than that, help users that have sound problems, there will probably be many which are this case
<RAOF> wgrant: Yes.  update-grub2 is a symlink to update-grub.  (Or possibly the other way around, I forget)
<wgrant> RAOF: Oh. Convenient.
<RAOF> Oh, sorry.  That's a lie.  update-grub2 is a script containing nothing but "exec update-grub $@" ;)
<m4t> any reports on the new desktop background changer 'fade' causing 100% cpu etc.?
<m4t> maybe selecting 'no desktop effects' should disable that
<MsMaco> lifeless: i saw one person in #ubuntu today who hit the menu.lst-not-updated issue with sound, but after "sudo update-grub" ended up with a stanza where the vmlinuz line was karmic and the initrd was still jaunty
<iWolf> Oh no
<iWolf> I just told 5 people
<iWolf> sudo update-grub
<dtchen> iWolf: I blogged and posted to the forums about this issue
<iWolf> And posted it on forums
<dtchen> hyperair: yes, resume is supposed to have functioning jack sense
<hyperair> ._. did you /hilight me or something?
<hyperair> so anyway, what info should i submit to a bug report?
<dtchen> hyperair: if it doesn't, you [should] know the drill: ubuntu-bug alsa-base . And, you should see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ALSA/JackSense
<lifeless> MsMaco: then they'd need to also run update-initramfs
<syn-ack> alright... are we able to sync up to lucid yet by changing the sources.list?
<dtchen> sure.
<syn-ack> werd
<hyperair> dtchen: ah okay
<syn-ack> wanted to make sure I was gonna get anything that's dropped
 * hyperair grumbles. looks like i have to install apport
<dtchen> hyperair: ok, if you don't want, just use http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-info.sh
<dtchen> don't want to install apport, that is
<hyperair> ah okay
<JanC> why refuse to install apport?
<MsMaco> JanC: because sometimes it gets stupid
<JanC> ?
<wgrant> Does it?
<MsMaco> throwing up crash reports for code you're debugging (cant tell it to stop it til after you authorize it, then supposedly there's a "shut up" button), spawning...well, one time it had 189 processes for only 6 crash reports in /var/crash/ using 4GiB of RAM for me... the Cancel button doesn't always work...
<JanC> after the release all (or most?) of the automatic bug reporting stuff is disabled by default anyway...
<JanC> and you can tell it to ignore applications etc.
<JanC> set enabled=0 in /etc/default/apport and it should be harmless
<JanC> (which is the default after release)
<JanC> and /etc/apport/blacklist.d/ has the blacklisted executables
<dtchen> I generally prefer apport-generated entries, but I'm flexible. Beggars can't be choosers.
<hyperair> dtchen: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-driver/+bug/467954
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 467954 in alsa-driver "Speaker does not unmute after resume from suspend/hibernate if headphones are removed while system is hibernated/suspended" [Undecided,New]
<hyperair> JanC: another reason is that the post-release effects of ubuntu traffic is rather devastating on the closest mirror and i don't particularly feel like waiting.
 * hyperair is on the same LAN as sg.r.u.c which also happens to be an archives mirror
<JanC> hyperair: okay, that's a reason not to install it now maybe  ;)
<hyperair> indeed
<JanC> still no reason to uninstall it  ;)
<hyperair> well i never knew about the enabled=0 trick
<hyperair> thanks for that
<hyperair> i got rid of it because apport-collect or whatever was annoying the crap out of me
<hyperair> at one point of time, notify-osd was a frequent crasher
<JanC> if you are debuging stuff, the blacklist stuff is very useful too
<hyperair> but you'd never notice because it gets automatically restarted
<hyperair> and then apport-collect or whatver kept getting fired off >_>
<hyperair> it annoyed the crap out of me
<JanC> hehe, you can also blacklist certain bugs instead of the application
<JanC> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport/DeveloperHowTo#Bug%20patterns
<m4t> so i've tried 'sudo dpkg-reconfigure -phigh xserver-xorg' per the ubuntu wiki, to try to get an xorg.conf, but it doesn't write anything out
<hyperair> hmm i see
<m4t> is there a way to dump the running xorg.conf?
<hyperair> i think there's a way but i can't rmember
<JanC> m4t: xorg.conf is mostly empty anyway
<dtchen> hyperair: trying removing the power_save_controller=N parameter from the options snd-hda-intel line in /etc/modprobe.d/alsa-base.conf
<dtchen> hyperair: (it defaults to power_save_controller=Y)
<hyperair> dtchen: that just gives me clicks.
<hyperair> dtchen: and this bug has happened since intrepid
<hyperair> it's nothing recent
<dtchen> huh
<hyperair> actually jaunty as well
<m4t> janc, i need a template of what's being used for keyboard/mouse/etc
<m4t> so that i can run aticonfig and get proper 3d accel
<hyperair> dtchen: no wait, i think jaunty didn't give me jack detection at all
<hyperair> dtchen: so intrepid is the first release in which jack detection worked. in other words, it was like this from day one, and i didn't give it much thought
<m4t> heh..
<m4t> i just touch'd it and aticonfig took
<m4t> good call, JanC
<JanC> m4t: http://paste.ubuntu.com/306444/ is the default config on all of my systems...  ;)
<JanC> that's also what's in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.failsafe apparently
<m4t> hrm yea thats what i needed
<JanC> except that failsafe has vesa
<m4t> empty file worked fine though
<m4t> brb
<JanC> except that vesa isn't failsafe  ;)
<JanC> * isn't always failsafe
 * JanC has a SiS system where the video card crashes when using vesa  :P
<hyperair> lol
<hyperair> my SiS system uses nvidia =p
<hyperair> except that nvidia's 96 drivers are a steaming pile of crap >_>
<JanC> it has SiS video
<hyperair> i can't even get a proper desktop that does not quiver under metacity >_>
<hyperair> i suppose SiS video is not "VESA-compatible" then
<JanC> which has a driver written by a guy for his laptop 10 years ago, and not updated for 5 years  ;)
<hyperair> >_>
<hyperair> so take over
<JanC> hyperair: well, on another system with the same hardware (AFAIK) it works
<hyperair> meh
<hyperair> weird stuff.
<JanC> so I assume it's a BIOS issue
<hyperair> mmhm
<syn-ack> alright. Toolchain updated.
<wip> lots changed in karmic or it's me that is retarded :) how to give permission to all user to raw1394 module? i tried all the past solution without success: http://freebob.sourceforge.net/index.php/UdevConfiguration#Allow_access_to_all_users
<wip> there is no permissions.d in karmic
<lifeless> #ubuntu for support please
<wip> lifeless: no luck there
<wip> i would prefer to avoid to write a file in init.d/raw1394 for chmod 777 /dev/raw1394...
<mneptok> does Ubiquity do disk encryption yet?
<mneptok> i really want to encrypt partitions on the wife's netbook, but the only install option is the LiveCD via USB key.
<RAOF> mneptok: Why doesn't alternate CD via USB key work?
<lifeless> mneptok: karmic has encrypted home
<lifeless> mneptok: using cryptfs rather than block encryption, its pretty good
<lifeless> mneptok: and a /lot/ faster than having all the system binaries encrypted
<mneptok> RAOF: the netbook does not detect ext filesystems, and the kernel on the alternate CD is built without vfat support
<wgrant> mneptok: Why is this netbook doing any filesystem detection?
<lifeless> mneptok: you need VFat to install?
<lifeless> wgrant: I'm guessing EFI boot or some such
<mneptok> lifeless: if the install media is on a vfat USB key, yes
<mneptok> wgrant: "No operating system detected"
<wgrant> Oh.
<wgrant> Right.
<lifeless> mneptok: and that usb key boots on other machines?
<mneptok> lifeless: haven;t tried
<wgrant> usb-creator writes to a vfat partition.
<wgrant> Forgot that.
<mneptok> the solution here is to either make the USB Creator app work with alternate CDs (i.e. build vfat support into the -alternate kernel) or just allow encryption from Ubiquity
<lifeless> mneptok: I suspect its not partitioned right, fs of the usb key doesn't matter to boot from it, you need the active bit set ...
<lifeless> mneptok: there are two other options
<lifeless> mneptok: a) use homedir encryption, which is supported
<wgrant> lifeless: Odd that usb-creator seems to always use vfat, then.
<lifeless> mneptok: b) partition by hand and mount the luks partitions, *then* run ubiquity
<mneptok> i don't want swap, /var, and other sensitive areas exposed.
<wgrant> Ubiquity does crypto-swap if you encrypt the home directories.
<lifeless> there was a HOWTO for doing this on forums/wiki somewhere, back in oh, hardy or thereabouts - its still valid
<mneptok> i could do it.
<wgrant> It's a horrible method, but it works.
<mneptok> but instead i'll sit here asking "with the popularity of Linux on netbooks, shouldn't disk encryption be available to the average user via a GUI installer?"
<eboysr> So I have my patch for gnome-control-center that I love very much (almost done testing it), and I want to submit it into Launchpad. It's not really fixing a bug, and it's not really a feature.. but how can I submit it? Also, I am guessing that it might not be included in gnome-control-center for Karmic because it is already shipped, right?
<mneptok> you know .... like Fedora :P
<wgrant> mneptok: Home directory and swap encryption is done. /var isn't particularly important on normal desktop systems, is it?
<lifeless> eboysr: submit a merge request to the lucid branch
<lifeless> eboysr: or a bug with a patch
<lifeless> eboysr: do not get hung up on 'bug == defect'
<lifeless> bug == 'something to change'
<mneptok> wgrant: it's my system, i decide what i want to protect. it's not up to developers to tell me what data of mine is sensitive and which data is OK being stolen. no offense. :)
<eboysr> As opposed to 'something to add'? :P Alright thanks lifeless.
<mdz> dtchen, I suggest attach_file or attach_file_if_exists instead of command_output(['cat',...])
<eboysr> What is a merge request?
<dtchen> mdz: err, for /proc/ ...?
<dtchen> mdz: i.e., if /proc/asound/version doesn't exist, there are larger problems, but if you feel that attach_file_if_exists is better, sure.
<JanC> mneptok: I guess you just need to set the boot flag for the partition, but IIRC USB-creator doesn't partition the disk; when you partition the usb key and add a vfat partition with the boot flag set, and then use unetbootin to copy the stuff from the .iso to the USB key, it should work I think
<JanC> at least, that's how I got a thin client to boot from USB  ;)
<JanC> stupid BIOS manufacturers
<fale> I have seen that today the Lucid branch has been opened... Is there a list of "asked features" or stuff like that to purpose personal ideas?
<goodnight> any news about ext4 bug?
<dupondje> bug # ?
<goodnight> 453579
<goodnight> first one on this list https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs
<eboyjr> Whoah scary
<goodnight> yeah
<dupondje> seems like almost nobody can reproduce ...
<eboyjr> Then it's a hardware problem with the computer :P
<dupondje> seems like 3 people can reproduce it ...
<dupondje> so it seems to happen in very rare cases ;)
<eboyjr> I wonder what they all have in common in their configuration
<eboyjr> I know its too obvious :P
<mdke> cjwatson: ok, no worries - give me a poke if you do and I'll update help.u.c
<mantiena> hi all
<mantiena> I've noticed lots of identifical bugreports about jaunty->karmic upgrading problems when users have ttf-mscorefonts-installer, maybe someone from Ubuntu developers can assign bug #464422 to the right person and increase importance ? Every day since karmic release about 10 identifical bugs are reported about this problem :(
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 464422 in baltix "fail to complete upgrade jaunty > karmic ttf-mscorefonts-installer" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/464422
<mantiena> This problem appears because ttf-mscorefonts-installer always tries to download fonts from internet servers without asking if user wants to do this and returns an error if there are no access to the fonts download locations
<hyperair> ALSA lib conf.c:2700:(snd_config_hooks_call) Cannot open shared library libasound_module_conf_pulse.so
<hyperair> ALSA lib pcm.c:2211:(snd_pcm_open_noupdate) Unknown PCM default
<hyperair> hmm strange..
<hyperair> dtchen: ^^ you know anything about this?
<hyperair> http://pastebin.com/f46da290e
<hyperair> seems that alsa stopped looking in /usr/lib/alsa-lib for its things?
<Shockrates> hi does ubuntu have a gui for more stuff than other distros that use gnome? i mean have the ubuntu developers tweaked the gnome gui?
<Shockrates> and what about kde
<mantiena> Shockrates: you should ask such questions on #ubuntu channel, this channel is for development
<engla> DktrKranz: I emailed you about Kupfer
<DktrKranz> hi engla, I haven't received it yet, what's it about?
<hyperair> dtchen: nevermind, ignore everything i said earlier -- ld.so.cache went and got screwed.
<engla> DktrKranz: circumventing kupfer-activate.sh breaks some features that are only implemented by that script
<engla> DktrKranz: oh my these undecipherable upstream you think
<engla> DktrKranz: mostly kupfer "some text here" will send that to the running instance
<DktrKranz> engla: oh gosh!
<engla> DktrKranz: I use it only to grab directories from the cli. I'm an cli-desktop unification activist
<engla> kupfer docs/   if docs is a file in the current directory is really practical
<DktrKranz> engla: does it require d-bus service too?
<engla> no
<DktrKranz> ok, so it's quite easy to solve
<engla> it is not a perfect feature. the query part is ignored if kupfer is not running
<engla> but in that case, kupfer starts connected to the terminal where the user calls it
<DktrKranz> I'll look at it later this afternoon
<engla> there is no hurry
<janjiss> Hi guys
<janjiss> I would like to know how can i contribute to ubuntu?
<janjiss> Somone?
<hyperair> janjiss: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu -- sometimes a google search can do wonders.
<janjiss> I guess.
<janjiss> ..
<hyperair> patience can also do wonders
<hyperair> not everyone in the channel is active all the time.
<janjiss> I am sorry :(
<emma> Hey Ubuntu Developers. I just now installed Karmic. You all did a marvelous job. Speaking as a run of the mill user, I really love it and I wanted to thank you all!  It looks like the best one ever! :)
<sivang> does anybody know if sound is fixed for the nvidia ion platform ?
<sivang> it's broken in jaunty
<mehdi2> hi, sorry maybe not related to this channel, where can I get some info about fonts removed in Karmic vs Jaunty
<mehdi2> Karmic has poor persian (farsi) support vs Jaunty and I want to document it for the community in a simple way...
<mantiena> mehdi2: so, you could use http://wiki.ubuntu.com for this, just search before creating new article, maybe someone already started the article about persian (farsi) language support
<mehdi2> mantiena: I've not resolved it yet, I don't know what has changed in Karmic vs Jaunty... I know some fonts removed in karmic but after installing them in karmic still no change... Serif was mapped to Nazli in Jaunty (which is right facing) but in Karmic it is mapped to DejaVu Serif which is ugly and unreadable in persian
<mantiena> mehdi2: if you have some questions to ubuntu developers you can ask them at http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<mehdi2> mantiena: ok, ty
<elmoz> does anyone have instructurions to install/use LVM with 9.10 desktop?  I found several but can not run the step 'modprobe dm-mod' - says no such module
<ebroder> I seem to remember hearing of plans to upload a recent kernel for Hardy - did that ever happen?
<mantiena> ebroder: are you sure, that there were such plans? Could you point any link to official Ubuntu blogs or blueprints or mailing lists?
<ebroder> mantiena: No, that's why I'm asking about it
<apetrescu> Hey, is there any easy way to get ARM cross-compiling capabilities in GCC? Like, a repository package or something? I know I can just compile my own gcc but I'd rather not if I don't have to
<iWolf> I would like to help develop Ubuntu
<iWolf> Where should i get started?
<azeem> in #ubuntu-motu
<iWolf> Ok
<iWolf> thank you!
<iWolf> And what should i ask there
<iWolf> I would like to become a developer?
<azeem> you already asked
<iWolf> Oh,
<iWolf> Ill join soon (Hopefully)
<iWolf> Does anyone know about the suspend problem?
<apetrescu> the suspend problem?
<iWolf> Yes
<iWolf> [Whoever] Closes The Lid. Opens It Up And It Wont Resume
<hyperair> does anyone know what's /var/lib/dpkg/triggers/Unincorp for?
<hyperair> it seems a recent strange ext4 corruption landed me with a corrupted file there
<Nitsuga> hyperair, I think that Unicorp is some kind of journal of dpkg actions
<Nitsuga> just looked at my unincorp file and found it has 0 bytes and is an empty text file.
<hyperair> hmm i see
<hyperair> okay
 * hyperair sighs
<hyperair> one of these days, my / is going to get so corrupted i'd have to reinstall =.=
<Nitsuga> hyperair, try dpkg -a
<hyperair> Nitsuga: ?
<Nitsuga> * dpkg --reconfigure -a
<hyperair> Nitsuga: i did dpkg --configure -a earlier.
<Nitsuga> or was it dpkg-reconfigure
<Nitsuga> ahm
<hyperair> dpkg --configure
<hyperair> i'm pretty sure of it
<hyperair> i've been doing dpkg disaster recoveries lately
<hyperair> a lot of them
<hyperair> stupid ext4 =.=
<Nitsuga> My ext4 works great
<hyperair> you'd think that after syncing it would have everything in the journal flushed out
<Nitsuga> of course i am not pressing that raset button all day long
<hyperair>  but no, after a failed resume from hibernation, all kinds of things go wrong
<hyperair> =.=
<Nitsuga> *reset
<jdong> well failed resume from hibernation is pretty nasty :)
<Nitsuga> I found that s2disk from package uswsusp works really well
<hyperair> jdong: i never had an issue with ext3 truncating my files or shoving half a dozen files together
<hyperair> i've had files which got replaced with contents they should never had
<Nitsuga> always worked anda it's faster
<hyperair> i'm using tuxonice
<hyperair> it's even faster than uswsusp
<YokoZar> I need some guidance on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/procps/+bug/447197  -- any package invoking start procps will fail to install if there's a bad conffile in /etc/sysctl.d, but it's not clear what package to file the bug against (because the package invoking start procps has an ok conf file)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 447197 in wine1.2 "Packages with custom /etc/sysctl.d/30-foo.conf files can fail to install: start procps returns exit status 1" [Undecided,Triaged]
<hyperair> YokoZar: start procps || true
<hyperair> jdong: i once had a file in /var/lib/dpkg/info replaced with a python script.
<jdong> hahaha :)
<YokoZar> hyperair: I suppose we could put that in every package init script (eg Wine), but wouldn't a better solution be to have procps not throw the error anyway?
<hyperair> jdong: that came after fsck scolded me and accused me of running fsck while / was mounted when it was mounted ro
<hyperair> YokoZar: no, i think it should throw and error, or you'd never catch it
<hyperair> shouldn't throw an error*
<hyperair> er
<hyperair> shit
 * hyperair bangs head on wall
<hyperair> no, i think it should throw an error or you'd never catch it
<hyperair> on the other hand, the postinst scripts should ignore the error because dpkg shouldn't be failing just because i messed up one of my configs in /etc
<hyperair> a big fat warning might be nice
<YokoZar> hyperair: makes sense
<YokoZar> hyperair: the other place this error might propagate is at bootup though
<YokoZar> or does upstart do something similar
<hyperair> no
<hyperair> upstart won't die just because one initscript fails
<hyperair> a good example is that good-for-nothing sreadahead shit that keeps failing on my boot
<hyperair> >_>
<YokoZar> the other question is if it's a good idea for sysctl to fail if it finds an invalid key anyway, other than just ignore it
<YokoZar> (eg because it's deprecated)
<hyperair> hmm that's a good question.
<hyperair> i have no idea xD
<hyperair> if it's deprecated, then yes probably it should fail i think
<YokoZar> The Debian version, for what it's worth, doesn't have the init script propagate sysctl's errors
<hyperair> hm is that so?
<YokoZar> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=552313
<ubottu> Debian bug 552313 in procps "procps: config snippets in /etc/sysctl.d are not used" [Normal,Closed]
<hyperair> how does sysvinit handle failing init scripts?
<YokoZar> I don't know
<YokoZar> probably very immaturely
<hyperair> hmm
<hyperair> yeah probably
<hyperair> i don't think it'd halt the boot process though..
<hyperair> yeah in older versions of ubuntu you get those fancy starting ____ .. OK/FAIL messages don't you?
<hyperair> if you remove "quiet" from your kernel commandline
<dupondje> does somebody dreams of a launchpad without bugs ? .)
<hyperair> dupondje: i dream of a launchpad that's geographically nearer to asia or otherwise grants better speeds here
<dupondje> :p
<jdong> hyperair: failing init scripts is not the same as failing upstart config files though
<dupondje> i'm still trying to find out how to debug nautilus :(
<hyperair> jdong: what's the difference?
<iWolf> Right now im using Debian, going back to Ubuntu
<jdong> hyperair: one upstart job can significantly change the meaning dependency-wise.
<iWolf> (On Other PC)
<hyperair> jdong: well yes, but procps doesn't emit any events, does it?
<jdong> hyperair: whether or not it does, upstart doesn't know that
<Nitsuga> hyperair, Launchpad is slow even inside Canonical building
<hyperair> Nitsuga: okay, that sucks.
<pecisk> by the way, is there hw database with info collected from Ubuntu hardware testing tool?
<hyperair> jdong: you're supposed to declare beforehand which events you'll fire off aren't you?
<hyperair> jdong: as long as nothing depends on "started procps" then it should be fine i think
<hyperair> jdong: also upstart doesn't go by dependencies, init-ng does. upstart goes by events
<YokoZar> So it seems like we have 3 options: 1) Quiet down sysctl so it doesn't throw these errors on unknown commands, 2) Change procps upstart job to not care about sysctl errors, 3) Change every package with a sysctl.d conffile to ignore start procps errors
<jdong> now you're just nitpicking :) dependencies, events, either way it's modelable as a DAG
<hyperair> jdong: =P
<hyperair> YokoZar: i think this should be discussed with the debian maintainer of procps.
<YokoZar> hyperair: I think we differ from debian there don't we?
<hyperair> yeah we do
<hyperair> so i think some discussion should be held with debian to see which approach is better
<hyperair> #3 is a very messy solution
<hyperair> every package with a sysctl.d conffile will need to be merged instead of synced
<YokoZar> Yeah that was my thought
<YokoZar> but it seems to be what keybuck wants (he closed the procps task invalid at the bug report)
<hyperair> imo drag both ubuntu and debian maintainers of procps into a discussion about this =\
<hyperair> it's in everyone's best interest, is it not?
<hyperair> #1 seems somewhat feasible, #2 seems like a wild hack unless some consensus beteween ubuntu and debian is achieved, and #3 ends up as a very messy solution
<ebroder> Can somebody accept the milestone for Hardy for bug #466769? I'm always afraid to close a bug against the current release because I feel like it's going to slip through the cracks
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 466769 in lilo-installer "SRU: lilo-installer doesn't respect lilo-installer/skip on Hardy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/466769
<hdon> any inclination to migrate ubuntu support to something like google wave? threaded instant message seems ideal
<MsMaco> pitti: sorry for the mistagging
<MsMaco> bug 255651 ... can the floppy module just be put in /etc/modules by default and then if you dont have a floppy nothing'll happen anyway??
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255651 in linux "floppy disk drive not detected (module not loaded) in Intrepid and Jaunty" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255651
<tjgillespie_> all, just curious, what mechanism does ubuntu use to automatically load kernel module when you attach hardware?
<MsMaco> tjgillespie_: udev?
<tjgillespie_> MsMaco well i have udev running on gentoo.... and it doesn't seem to be doing anythig, that's all
<MsMaco> oh. was a guess. we had hal and devicekit for a bit but 9.10 isnt sposed to be using them...
<tjgillespie_> odd
<tjgillespie_> MsMaco ok thanks for the help, i thought i was missing a piece but obvously something's just broken :P
<dtchen> err, 9.10 certainly does use udev, hal, and devicekit.
<MsMaco> dtchen: i thought you said earlier that devicekit was removed?
<MsMaco> *shrug*
<dtchen> MsMaco: no, you misheard. I said that devicekit is on the way out.
<MsMaco> tjgillespie_: listen to whatever dtchen says. he's used to hardware
<dtchen> no, you should probably go read what upstream says about halsectomy
<tjgillespie_> devicekit is on the way out already?
<dtchen> I'm dumb; Google is smrt.
<tjgillespie_> as in, it's being retired?
<MsMaco> but you're like a google aggregator!
#ubuntu-devel 2010-11-01
<Keybuk> Coo, the UDS hotel is strangely dead without the kernel team camped around the pool
<lifeless> ;)
<Keybuk> lifeless: you're home already, or in airport limbo?
<lifeless> home
<lifeless> fucked, but home
<Keybuk> yay, at least you're there :)
<lifeless> yeah
<lifeless> Lynne's happy :)
<Keybuk> hwhw
<Keybuk> say hi from me
<lifeless> kk
<ScottK> debfx: It turns out that there's a new tool for archive admins to process syncs so they don't often look at the bug queue anymore.  We discussed at UDS extending it to cover backports so those will get quickly and easily processed too.
<slangasek> ScottK: huh, really?  What tool is this?
<slangasek> I guess I missed a memo
<ScottK> slangasek: sync-helper I think.
<ScottK> (in the archive admin tools)
<ScottK> slangasek: It wouldn't hurt if you could have a look at pending backports requests if you have a moment though.
<dholbach> good morning!
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> hey pitti
<pitti> hey dholbach, back home?
<dholbach> pitti, yep
<pitti> cjwatson: could we re-enable daily CD cronjobs, or do these need some natty update first? (I mostly want to track CD size now)
<cjwatson> pitti: can't enable them yet, no
<cjwatson> pitti: two reasons: need to finish merging installer before they'll be useful; and I really want to do the ports merge before we start
<pitti> cjwatson: okay, no problem
<Yaron-Heb> Hey guys, There is some package I want to get back in Ubuntu
<Yaron-Heb> What would be the best way to do it?
<geser> which package? is it in Debian?
<cjwatson> debfx,ScottK: I've done those backports now; sorry for the long delay
<cjwatson> (but yes, tool support would help make it more timely in future)
<ScottK> cjwatson: Thanks.
<Yaron-Heb> yes it is
<cjwatson> Yaron-Heb: which package?
<Yaron-Heb> geser: yes it is...
<Yaron-Heb> geser: bidiui, included in Karmic
<d1b> hi guys quick question, how do i get dpkg-buildflags to take options from my config file --> the man page doesn't document how they should be setup out and CFLAGS= -O2 etc. doesn't seem to work
<Yaron-Heb> geser: https://bugs.launchpad.net/thunderbird/+bug/649341
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 649341 in bidiui (Ubuntu) "Please update from debian" [Undecided,New]
<cjwatson> d1b: the man page suggests 'SET CFLAGS -O2' - have you tried that?
<Yaron-Heb> cjwatson: same...
<d1b> cjwatson: that isn't in mine i think :)
<d1b> thanks
<cjwatson> Yaron-Heb: subscribe ubuntu-archive to that bug report
<d1b> cjwatson: it works :)
<Yaron-Heb> cjwatson: i will, thanks
<cjwatson> Yaron-Heb: (and mark the upstream task invalid please - it's not an upstream bug)
<geser> Yaron-Heb: I see it got removed because it's an unsupportable mozilla extension
<cjwatson> Yaron-Heb: we probably won't do it in maverick though
<Yaron-Heb> cjwatson: fine, I will, thank you
<cjwatson> oh, it's one of those, hmm
<cjwatson> well, that was a decision by the Ubuntu Mozilla team, I don't want to override them as an archive admin ...
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Lucid/FirefoxNewSupportModel/extension-list
<cjwatson> so I guess you'll actually need to ask #ubuntu-mozillateam
<geser> cjwatson: it's also on sync blacklist
<cjwatson> yes, I know
<Yaron-Heb> cjwatson: I added them, hope its ok
<cjwatson> Yaron-Heb: well, I meant the IRC channel, but OK
<cjwatson> I think I'll actually have to unsubscribe ubuntu-archive from the bug - we can't do anything without the Mozilla team's say-so
<cjwatson> sorry for the initial incorrect advice
<cjwatson> I've commented on the bug to that effect
<Yaron-Heb> Colin J Watson: Thank you! I'll go talk to the channel
<Yaron-Heb> I can't unsubscribe ubuntu-archive, I'm not a member...
<ScottK> Yaron-Heb: I believe he said he'd take care of that part.
<cjwatson> I already did.
<Yaron-Heb> thanks... my bad
<mterry> james_w, what was the blueprint for the 'automatic packaging' session?  Not sure I ever uploaded my notes/work-items from that session or not.
<mterry> Can't find it now
<james_w> mterry, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/appdevs-community-n-auto-generate-packaging
<mterry> james_w, awesome.  OK, good, I did add notes to wiki already.  I just updated the whiteboard with the action items from the meeting.  You might want to add high level overview to the Proceedings wiki page
<james_w> mterry, thanks
<james_w> mterry, https://edge.launchpad.net/~pkgme-devs is the team I created for the mailing list if you want to join
<mterry> james_w, done
<MattJ> You know those people who you switch to Ubuntu, but they jump at any chance to say "I knew I should have stuck with Windows"?
<MattJ> There's a minor issue, but perhaps it's better in 10.10, I haven't checked
<MattJ> When update manager picks up updates, but doesn't download until later, sometimes package versions may be out of date (security upgrades)
<MattJ> It throws up an unfriendly dialog saying there has been an error getting packages
<ebroder> pitti: why does gnome-system-tools depend on perl at all? i can't find any perl code in there
<pitti> ebroder: system-tools-backends is written in Perl
<MattJ> This seems perhaps like a usability issue, in that it's potentially something an everyday user could encounter but not understand
<ebroder> pitti: and the backends need a perl gnome stack? eww
<pitti> ebroder: at least it depends on perl
<micahg> MattJ: please file a bug against update-manager
<MattJ> micahg: Thanks, shall do
<pitti> ebroder: we could do some research to split out the necessary perl modules for that, but it's moot, since we want to replace it with the gnome 3 user admin tool anyway
<ebroder> pitti: at least on my lucid machine, gnome-system-tools *does* depend perl (which appears to be bogus), and system-tools-backends *doesn't*
<pitti> that sounds wrong indeed
<ebroder> pitti: meh. it's a moot point if we can get the gnome 3 tools in
<pitti> ebroder: I don't see why we wouldn't get it in
<MattJ> I guess finding bugs in Launchpad while reporting bugs is just part of the process :)
<BUGabundo> G'afternoon
<fagan> afternoon BUGabundo
<pitti> lamont: will anything blow up if I add a new binary dependency to pkgbinarymangler?
<cjwatson> jdstrand: I took an action at UDS to merge the dhcp3 changes into isc-dhcp.  I just realised that I didn't check that with you, as the last uploader of dhcp3, to see if you were already doing it.  Do you mind?
<lamont> pitti: shouldn't - though said dependency effectively becomes build-essential.  Therefore, proceed with care
<lamont> pitti: it's not held anymore
<lamont> so also, don't break everything or I'll have to come visit you :-p
<pitti> lamont: in particular it's optipng; it might pullin linpng12-0
<pitti> "pulling in libpng12-0"
<pitti> (uh)
<pitti> lamont: for the actual operation I'll test case all this; I just wasn't sure whether it's using upgrade or dist-upgrade, the former would hold it back
<lamont> pitti: dist-upgrade is the only command that ever makes any sense for apt-get.  that upgrade thing you speak of is ancient history and wrong
<pitti> lamont: heh, ok; thanks for confirming
<pitti> well, it avoids structural changes and thus accidental removals etc.?
<lamont> pitti: boring
<malte> Hi, I'm trying to port appmenu to Gentoo and I'm stuck on the GTK+ part (I'm not a gentoo developer, nor do I know C, I'm just someone who likes playing around with Gentoo). When I apply the 043_ubuntu_menu_proxy.patch, the build fails with the following error: http://pastebin.ca/1978783 and I can't figure out how to fix it.
<cjwatson> malte: looks like a bug in the patch to me; there should be a declaration for ubuntu_gtk_menu_shell_activate_mnemonic in gtk/gtkmenushell.h, I think
<cjwatson> malte: #ubuntu-desktop would be able to correct me if I've made a mistake there
<malte> cjwatson: thanks, I'll try it there
<cjwatson> malte: the Ubuntu build log shows warnings for this, but not errors
<cjwatson> different compiler option defaults, I guess
<malte> cjwatson: I even tried to apply all the ubuntu patches, which also failed. So it might be a build option, or compiler option as you said.
<Aquina> Are you also receiving e-Mails like that one: http://pastebin.com/eAgGNjjh (by a person named Jason)? It's the third time now i got such a message.
<pitti> Aquina: I didn't, but it does seem to be sincere; perhaps point the guy to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu and to #ubuntu-motu?
<pitti> ScottK, barry: I'm curious, I guess the plan is to default python to 2.7? right now it seems we install both 2.6 and 2.7, and 2.6 is still the default
<ScottK> pitti: The plan is to enable 2.7 and make an assessment of it's readiness to be default once we've got all the needed rebuilds done.
<ScottK> On a related note, just upload what I hope is the fix for python2.7 FTBFS on powerpc.
<ScottK> upload/uploaded
<pitti> james_w: question, did you send the polkit hang fix upstream? I can't find it in the bugs
<pitti> james_w: I'd like to add it to the Debian package, too
<james_w> pitti, I did. Did I not link the bug reports?
<pitti> james_w: one has an upstream bug, but there's no patch
<james_w> pitti, http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=30515
<ubottu> Freedesktop bug 30515 in daemon "Race means that client can get no response from agent" [Normal,New]
<james_w> pitti, if you can reproduce then help with forward porting would be appreciated
<pitti> james_w: I can't reproduce, but if it has shown to work, I'm happy to throw it into Debian git
<james_w> pitti, confirmed to work in the version we have in Ubuntu
<pitti> james_w: cool, thanks
<cjwatson> hmm.  I suspect I ought to take a local copy of the current dhcp3-* debs before testing an upgrade to isc-dhcp 4 :-)
<bilalakhtar> james_w: Could you please merge https://code.launchpad.net/~bilalakhtar/bzr-builddeb/add-natty/+merge/39688 ? Someone reviewed it but hasn't been merged yet :( BTW, pitti: would you find bug #668764 suitable for an SRU?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 668764 in bzr-builddeb "Add Natty to the list of known distros" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/668764
<bilalakhtar> Since it is currently a blocker for anyone who wishes to use UDD for merging
<bilalakhtar> Not exactly a blocker, but 'it would make a major feature almost useless, since most devs may be working on natty throughout the cycle
<LLStarks> pitti, is there a log or transcript of the ubuntu footprint panel?
<LLStarks> from uds
<pitti> LLStarks: it should still be in gobby
<pitti> LLStarks: but I did the writeup yesterday to clean it up
<LLStarks> i'm curious to know whether apt-sync and delta debs were seriously considered
<cjwatson> I just edited /usr/share/pyshared/bzrlib/plugins/builddeb/util.py to add it locally, TBH :-)
<pitti> LLStarks: so now it's the whiteboard in https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint
<cjwatson> LLStarks: those don't affect installation size
<ebroder> or cd size
<pitti> LLStarks: they weren't, and they don't affect CD/install size
<pitti> heh, snap
<LLStarks> is that the excuse to prevent delta debs from ever getting its own approved blueprint or push it back year after year?
 * pitti raises the "current potential savings" bar to 32.5 MB
<pitti> LLStarks: it's not an excuse, it's simply unrelated
<pitti> and delta debs not making it is primarily a question of manpower, I guess
<cjwatson> and "prevent ... from ever getting its own approved blueprint" is simply not true!
<cjwatson> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-m-rsync-based-deb-downloads
<cjwatson> it didn't happen due to time, not due to some conspiracy on the part of UDS schedulers ...
<cjwatson> I'd like to see it happen; it's just a big project that nobody with the necessary skills has yet picked up
<bilalakhtar> pitti: Did you read what I said above?
<pitti> bilalakhtar: I'd prefer if james_w could look at bzr-builddeb, it's his baby
<bilalakhtar> pitti: You're the SRU guy!
<bilalakhtar> hmm, yes, he woudl be the person to ask
<pitti> bilalakhtar: as for the SRU, I'm a bit torn -- I don't like people doing natty uploads on maverick
<pitti> bilalakhtar: but I realize that a lot of people do anyway, so I won't veto against it
<pitti> so if someone uploads it, I'll process it
<bilalakhtar> pitti: We have sessions and classes advising people to move to UDD, and now, we want the process to be as streamlined as possible
<ebroder> bilalakhtar, pitti: don't those sorts of things usually get handled in backports?
<ebroder> (i.e. adding dev release support to debootstrap, etc)
<bilalakhtar> I have seen that bzr-builddeb has matured enough to be my preferred work environment
<pitti> yeah, bzr bd is pure â¥
<bilalakhtar> ebroder: Isn't dev release support in debootstrap always?
<ebroder> bilalakhtar: i feel like i usually see it get uploaded to the dev release, then backported to stable releases. but i could be misremembering
<ScottK> bilalakhtar: It was this time, but usually we fine out the name too late to do that.
<ScottK> fine/find
<bilalakhtar> yup
<bilalakhtar> I think we should have the name finalized quite soon
<ebroder> pitti: i don't see it on the spec - are you planning to deal with ubuntu-keyring's semi-bogus gnupg dep?
<cjwatson> is that a prediction or a wish?
<bilalakhtar> but that is a separate issue
<cjwatson> Mark usually tells us the name around beta
<mterry> pitti, what's the syntax for having two people assigned to a work item?
<mterry> (if there is one)
<pitti> ebroder: not on my list so far; it wouldn't help for the default install, but if that dependency is getting into the way, we can certainly drop it
<cjwatson> and he normally does it as part of an announcement which includes thoughts about the general style of the next release, which makes it hard to announce any earlier with the current model
<pitti> mterry: there isn't; a WI should be small enough for one person; split it into two WIs then
<mterry> k
<ebroder> pitti: it would be convenient for me, but if you weren't already planning to do it i can make it my problem
<james_w> bilalakhtar, merged, thanks
<bilalakhtar> james_w: would this fix be fit for an SRU?
<james_w> I think so, if the SRU team is happy
<bilalakhtar> james_w: hmm, will propose a patch and then see what the other devs think, In any case, I would need sponsorship
<Quantum_Ion> How do you set compile flags for ubuntu linux ?
<fagan> Quantum_Ion: this channel is for development of ubuntu you should ask that on #ubuntu-app-devel
<Quantum_Ion> fagan, Thanks
<slangasek> psusi: ping
<psusi> ubiquity doesn't somehow use udebs does it?  those are only part of d-i on the alternate cd right?
<psusi> cjwatson: you've assigned a few bugs to grub-installer that were originally ubiquity crashing.. why?  isn't grub-installer part of d-i, and so not used on the livecd?  and whether installing grub failed or not, shouldn't ubiquity not crash?
<chirag> hi everyone
<chirag> I am using Lucid 10.04
<chirag> I am having tough time installing my inbuilt webcam
<chirag> can anyone please help
<chirag> ?
<fagan> chirag | !support
<Pici> chirag: The support channel is #ubuntu, #ubuntu-devel is for development.
<Pici> fagan: !foo | bar
<chirag> ok
<fagan> oh whoops Pici I always get that mixed up
<pitti> ScottK, barry: do you happen to know whether dh_python{23} still need the old XS-Python-Version: tags? the manpage doesn't mention these
<micahg> ScottK: I just thought of something re -backports being pinned lower, don't we have to make -backports only build from -updates then unless a version in -backports is requested?
<ebroder> micahg: not if we teach apt to use backports to satisfy dependencies for packages being installed from backports
<micahg> ebroder: no, that's the point, if we don't want people installing from all of backports by default, we should probably build from -updates only unless a version from backports is specified
<ebroder> You can't do that, because you sometimes need to backport build-deps (i.e. dh 7 was backported to hardy-backports)
<micahg> ebroder: that's the second part of what I said
<ebroder> micahg: I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting. That you have to explicitly ask for build-deps to get pulled from -backports somehow?
<micahg> ebroder: yes, that'll prevent extra backports from being used (similar to debian experimental)
<ebroder> micahg: I'm having a hard time believing we need to be that strict. Especially given that we generally only backport leaf packages (which excludes libraries in general)
<ebroder> And it seems like teaching soyuz how to deal with that would make the task a lot more substantial
<pitti> skaet: hello! thanks for the initial changelog licensing inquiry
<ScottK> micahg: I think that you can't handle that a build time.
<ScottK> pitti: The preferred form is X-Python-Version (and X-Python3-Version), but XS-Python-Version is still supported as an alternative.  Debian Python Policy discusses this.
<pitti> ScottK: ah, so it doesn't actually need to go into Sources.gz any more?
<ScottK> pitti: That's the idea. XB-P-V is also no longer required.
<ajmitch> ScottK: is there any documentation about switching to dh_python2 from pycentral/pysupport?
<pitti> ScottK: so you do a content-based detection/decision which packages to rebuild now?
<ScottK> ajmitch: There is, but don't ask me where.  barry knows more about documentation than me (I think).
<ScottK> pitti: That's all we've ever been able to do.  XB-P-V coverage was never complete or accurate enough to be really useful.
 * ajmitch looked on the debian wiki & didn't find it, mailing list threads seemed a bit spread out to be useful
<jdstrand> cjwatson: feel free to do the merge. I don't mind
<pitti> ScottK: ok, thanks; what's the X-P-V: in the Source: part good for then?
<pitti> ScottK: I just packaged "scour" and didn't specify it, and it was clever enough to figure out "2.6, 2.7"
<ScottK> pitti: It's used in conjunction with pyversions to figure out what python versions to build for.  If not present it will fall back to all.
<ScottK> This will work, but it's better to specify, IMO.
<pitti> ScottK: as "2.6, 2.7" or "all"?
 * pitti hopes for the latter
<ScottK> 2.6 and 2.7 are all supported versions.
<pitti> ScottK: I mean, "X-Python-Version: all" will still work?
<ScottK> Yes, but the preferred form would be >= 2.4 (or whatever the lowest version it supports is)
<pitti>  ah, right; thanks!
<ScottK> We're trying to push towards more specificity and less magic in Python Policy.
<pitti> >= 2.6 sounds fine to me
<pitti> I just don't want to hardcode the list of supported versions
<ScottK> Agreed.
<pitti> but specifying the minimum required version makes absolute sense
 * sense agrees
<pitti> sense: :)
<sense> :)
<ScottK> OK.  Python2.7 finally built on all archs.
<ebroder> \o/
<fagan> ScottK: is there anything in 2.7 that will break anything made with 2.6
<ScottK> Yes.
<geser> ScottK: do you know the status of py2.7 support in python-support? (I don't know if python-central needs changes too)
<ScottK> geser: both need changes.  I'm reviewing barry's proposal for -support right now.
<geser> ok
<ari-tczew> OdyX: around?
<psusi> slangasek, ping
<bdrung> which tools are used to create the official ubuntu live CDs?
<ebroder> bdrung: livecd-rootfs does most of the heavy lifting
<ebroder> (err, the livecd-rootfs package, that is)
<slangasek> psusi: hi there
<slangasek> psusi: you may have seen that I've reverted your changes to bug reports on powernowd.  Please don't close bugs with the argument "you shouldn't use this package".  If a package shouldn't be used, please *get it removed from Ubuntu* first...
<bdrung> ebroder: thx
<psusi> slangasek, I filed a bug in debian but I am not familiar with their practices so perhaps you could check it to make sure I did it right... it is bug #602052.  Also should I file a bug requesting it be dropped from ubuntu?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 602052 in MVHub "google ads mess up side bar with IE6,7,8" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/602052
<psusi> slangasek, also I'm pretty sure that half of those people didn't even have the package installed and that the bug only got assigned to the powernowd package because the kernel mentions the word powernow
<chris1> i have a java question, and i didn't know where to ask so i thought someone here must know this. How does java handle allocating objects when memory is full? does it throw an exception? is the returned object null? does anyone happen to know? sorry for being offtopic..
<slangasek> psusi: yes, please also file a bug in LP against the package in Ubuntu, providing a similar rationale, and subscribe ubuntu-archive
<slangasek> psusi: sure, some of those bug reports may be bogus, but we shouldn't *assume* they're bogus... removing the package may be the best way to address this, I just want to make sure the package actually gets removed from Ubuntu rather than lingering with no attention to the bugs
<slangasek> the bugs themselves still exist until we've removed the package
<psusi> will do.. iirc I had reassigned a few of the bugs to linux where it seemed that might do some good... you didn't reverse those did you?  the rest just seemed like there was no point in having them around since they were reported years ago and have seen zero activity and certainly never will
<slangasek> no, I only reversed the ones I could find, which is the ones still assigned to powernowd :)
<psusi> some of them I didn't bother reassigning because it seemed likely that the op had moved on and could not provide any additional info required to properly triage
<psusi> but I mentioned that if they did come back, they should do so
<cjwatson> psusi: because I know what I'm doing :-)
<psusi> I've been on a bit of a triaging spree the last few days... a bug should not sit there in the new or confirmed state for years with no attention... it needs triaged if possible, and closed otherwise
<cjwatson> psusi: ubiquity uses grub-installer, albeit not as a udeb - the source is incorporated into ubiquity, and crashes in grub-installer need to be fixed there
<psusi> cjwatson, ahh, yes... re: grub-installer... it only builds a udeb, so isn't it only used in d-i on the alternate cd?
<slangasek> psusi: btw, since powernowd has an ubuntu revision number in Ubuntu, even if the Debian bug is acted on quickly, this doesn't automatically translate to a removal from Ubuntu
<cjwatson> jdstrand: thanks
<psusi> ohhh boy... that's weird... so ubiquity build-depends on grub-installer and links in some of it?  I see...
<slangasek> psusi: er, "and closed otherwise" - I don't consider that to be a representative description of the standard bug-handling policies in Ubuntu
<slangasek> at *most*, the policy is to mark the bug "incomplete" if there's missing information, and give the submitter an opportunity to supply whatever information is missing
<psusi> slangasek, seems to be what the "incomplete" state exists for
<slangasek> well, these bugs were closed as "invalid", not "incomplete" :)
<cjwatson> psusi: no, there's a script in the ubiquity source package that fetches updated source packages and copies them.  I tried various approaches and settled on that.  Regardless, please don't undo any actions I've taken where I've reassigned bugs from ubiquity to a d-i component
<psusi> well, they should have been incomplete long ago so I guess I kinda was trying to hurry the process along a bit... can always move it back if they respond, and I subscribed to them all
<cjwatson> psusi: please don't close them unless you can prove they're fixed
<cjwatson> otherwise I'm going to have to spend hours reopening
<cjwatson> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~cjwatson/blosxom/ubuntu/2009-02-27-bug-triage-rants.html and http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~cjwatson/blosxom/ubuntu/2009-03-05-bug-triage-redux.html are summaries of my thoughts on bug triaging
<psusi> well, they should be incomplete then at least if more information is needed... if it can't get to triaged then what's the point?  some guy saying something crashed once years ago and there's no idea of why just seems to clutter things up and prevent attention going to bugs that can be fixed
<cjwatson> and, TBH, the distinction between Confirmed and Triaged (and for that matter often New) is not all that helpful to me as a developer
<cjwatson> so if you find bugs where all the is haven't been dotted and the ts haven't been crossed, it's because I find it a net waste of time
 * slangasek prefers crossing the É¨s and dotting the á¹«s
<psusi> if there is enough information there to understand the problem and contemplate a fix, it should be triaged shouldn't it?  and otherwise, it doesn't do anybody any good to rot as new for years
<micahg> psusi: currently bug policy if a bug is new or confirmed, one should attempt to reproduce before commenting/changing status on the bug
<cjwatson> if you have a different opinion and want to help get the bugs into a state where they have clearer information, that's fine, but I would prefer it not to create lots of bug-mail noise, so if you could try to stick to the bugs that really have very little information indeed, I would prefer that
<cjwatson> psusi: the purpose of bug reports is to improve the software, not to improve the bug statistics; I try to spend time fixing bugs rather than changing bug statuses
<slangasek> psusi: "it should be triaged" - probably, but then why are you marking them invalid instead of marking them triaged?
<cjwatson> like I say, if you want to help out with that that's great, I just want not to have to spend time cleaning up afterwards as I often seem to have to do
<psusi> yea, I've managed to get several nicely reformatted to clearly describe the problem and what's likely needed to fix it and marked them as triaged.. much more handy to see all that in the subject and description instead of having to read all of the comments to get the picture
<psusi> slangasek, because there was insufficient information to triage... I suppose incomplete would have been better for that batch, then either letting them expire or reassigning them to linux if that is the case, or if it really is a bug in powernowd, probably should end up as wontfix
<cjwatson> IMO closing bugs should be a task for a developer of the package rather than a bug triage function
<cjwatson> (and if there isn't a developer right now, they should be left open until there is - unless they really are completely uninformative)
<slangasek> psusi: I agree, that should be incomplete instead then.  But some of these bugs clearly *did* have enough information to reproduce them - like the ones saying the package fails to install, or that LSB info is missing from the init script
<psusi> cjwatson, I understand that... but it just seems to do more harm than good to have tons of ancient bugs cluttering up the system that have not, and and will not be fixed... why leave a reporter hanging and feeling totally ignored for years if it really won't be fixed?
<micahg> cjwatson: I agree if there's enough information to warrant it being triaged
<slangasek> because they've already been ignored for years and already feel that way; invalidating a valid bug only compounds the feeling
<cjwatson> because it's even worse to leave them hanging for a while and then close their bug without fixing it
<cjwatson> what slangasek said
<cjwatson> micahg: from what slangasek is saying, there was in some of these cases
<maco> i'm increasingly agreeing with cjwatson on triage not being suitable for non-developer-types to be thrown into
<micahg> cjwatson: right, I was commenting on the principle, not this case in particular
<cjwatson> psusi is a developer type mind you (elsewhere), so I don't really understand what's going wrong here
<micahg> cjwatson: different teams have different bug processes
<cjwatson> true
<slangasek> cjwatson: in the case of powernowd, I think it's a question of "due process" - if the package really shouldn't be used, we need to make sure we really get it out of the distro, *then* close the bugs out
<cjwatson> the Debian BTS rule is that you don't close other maintainers' bugs; unfortunately we never really instituted a proper equivalent of that when removing the maintainer lock
<cjwatson> but I think the general principle is sound
<cjwatson> slangasek: right, I have the same problem with closing grub bugs
<psusi> slangasek, true...
<cjwatson> as long as people can still install it in the current development release, closing the bugs is mostly futile - in many cases we'll just get new ones
<psusi> cjwatson, that works in debian because very package has a maintainer... that isn't so with ubuntu
<cjwatson> psusi: sure, but did you read the rest of what I said?  it doesn't seem like it :-(
<cjwatson> bugs staying open is not in and of itself a failure
<maco> you know that greasemonkey script that shows people's team icons (bug control, motu, core dev) next to their names in lp? how about a rule that says triagers shouldnt close bugs that have a member of ~ubuntu-dev subscribed directly or have anyone set in the Assigned field?
<maco> cjwatson: the bugs of yours that go missing... are they ones you have assigne yourself to, or are you using teh whole package:grub queue as your queue?
<cjwatson> there may be other factors that make it a problem, but in and of itself, a bug should stay open 'til it's either fixed, shown to be not a bug, etc.
<psusi> staying in the new state forever seems bad to me... a few months, sure.. but when it's been 3 releases since the last update, and it still hasn't gotten to the point where it correctly describes a bug and can be worked on... it seems to be doing more harm than good ot me
<cjwatson> psusi: please accept that other developers have different practices
<cjwatson> psusi: and that taking this approach can get in other people's way
<cjwatson> maco: they don't go missing as such, but I get more bug mail than I can process
<micahg> cjwatson: if you have a few packages you would like triagers to stay away from, please give me a list and I"ll get it into the BugSquad docs
<cjwatson> micahg: no, this is the wrong answer
<cjwatson> I don't want to have to explicitly blacklist a load of stuff
<micahg> cjwatson: I was hoping you'd say that :)
<cjwatson> I want triagers to get a clue :-)
<maco> cjwatson: by "go missing" i meant when someone invalidates a bug that you have an intention of fixing
<kklimonda_> "don't touch Colin's packages"? ;}
<cjwatson> missing the point!
<maco> and then it disappears from lp searches
<micahg> cjwatson: right, so we're trying to revise the mentoring program, but some people wander aimlessly and don't ask questions
<cjwatson> what is the purpose of bug triage if it is not to help developers?
<cjwatson> and if it is to help developers, why do bug triagers work against what developers want?
<cjwatson> I think it is because bug triage has been made an end in itself, rather than a means
<maco> micahg: his complaint has been before that triagers will look at bugs where he has said exactly what is wrong and how he needs to fix it, and triagers will ignore that comment and go and "is it fixed yet? oh you didnt answer. *invalid*"
<cjwatson> this problem is not just mine, and making it about me misses the point.  (yes, I realise that other Ubuntu developers have other practices, and I'm entirely happy for them to follow them)
<cjwatson> (but I am also not unique)
<micahg> maco: right, I remember the post, we try to tell people they have to reproduce when they come to us, but we have trouble with the people who never come to meetings and don't keep up with the latest policies
<psusi> well from the triage docs, I understand the goal to be to get a bug into a point where it can convey to the developer what the problem is so they can work on it and mark it as triaged... but it seems that all too often nobody touches it and it just rots for years in the new state doing nobody any good and never will since no developer can look at it and figure out what he needs to go fix
<cjwatson> making it about a list of individual packages also misses the point
 * maco never comes to meetings...
<cjwatson> psusi: "since no developer can look at it and figure out what he needs to go fix" - where did you get that idea?
<cjwatson> I look at New bugs *all the time*
<cjwatson> it's far from uncommon for a bug to be New *and* have all the information I need
<cjwatson> when I notice, I mark it Triaged, but see above - I get more bug mail than I can process
<psusi> cjwatson, sure... and when you see one you should mark it as triaged shouldn't you?
<cjwatson> it is the job of a triager to work out what's going on, not to blindly follow the statuses
<psusi> right... but if I look at a bug and it amounts to little more than a rant rather than a report of an actuals software defect... it probably shouldnt' remain new
 * micahg is scared of how much mail cjwatson gets
<cjwatson> would you expect a triage nurse to say "oh, you've been in casualty for eight hours, you can't really be ill, go home"?
<ebroder> cjwatson: hmm...i wonder if a part of the problem is that people who are very familiar with particular packages can often understand a bug just by looking at it, when that sort of thing is less accessible to people without that domain knowledge
<cjwatson> because that's what's happening
<cjwatson> ebroder: almost certainly
<cjwatson> psusi: rants with no real content, sure
<psusi> cjwatson, I guess I see it in this case as a bit more akin to the patient already died while waiting... send them to the morgue ;)
<ebroder> i.e. i'm sure you can look at a grub bug and know exactly what's going on, even if the bug description is *completely* unclear to someone who hasn't had their hands deep in the code
<cjwatson> psusi: but they didn't.  I fix four-year-old bugs quite frequently!
 * micahg thinks we should have a rule, if you're not familiar, don't touch, ask questions first
<cjwatson> this notion that bugs go stale is false
<lifeless> +1000
<cjwatson> and some of the old bugs are the really interesting ones
<micahg> rule number 1 for triage is don't make the patient worse
<lifeless> rule number 1 is have your most experienced nurse doing the triage.
<micahg> lifeless: that's for the triage manager ;)
<psusi> cjwatson, if they are still present in a more current release, but are you really going to fix bugs in grub legacy that work fine in grub2?  I figure the reason you have ignored them for so long is because you had no intention of fixing them because you figured grub2 would take care of it... which it did... so... at best it should be WONTFIX shouldn't it? rather than being ignored as new
<cjwatson> psusi: there is at least one significant cluster of grub legacy bugs that I have every intention of fixing
<cjwatson> psusi: but you *never asked*
<micahg> psusi: he probably hasn't fixed them because $cjwatson_clone = clone $cjwatson doesn't work :)
<psusi> yes, if it is old, but properly understood and documented bug, then it should stick around as triaged and maybe get fixed eventually... but when someone reported a problem 4 years ago without enough information to go about fixing it, and they no longer use that system and have moved on to one that does not have the problem so it can not be reproduced... doesn't seem to need to stay new forever
<cjwatson> that's not your decision to make
<cjwatson> furthermore, Won't Fix is a statement of developer intnt
<cjwatson> *intent
<psusi> lol.... really?  wow... ok... I got the feeling that you were happy to see grub legacy die
<psusi> true
<cjwatson> you never asked for the details
<cjwatson> if you had, I could have told you, but you just went right ahead
<cjwatson> the more people do this, the worse my time problem gets
<cjwatson> I know I'm coming off a bit strong here but it's a serious problem for me
<cjwatson> at this point, I have to assume that the statuses of bugs in packages I work on are essentially random
<cjwatson> I can no longer derive any useful information from them, and thus I have to just look at everything
<psusi> ok... so basically I got a little over zealeous and they should have just gone incomplete?  and I should have noticed the ones you had actually touched and talked to you about them first?  understood... of course, if you had marked them as triaged when you understood them and planned on coming back ;)
<cjwatson> unless I want to spend about 50% of every day reading bug mail
<cjwatson> psusi: I don't accept that this is my fault, for doing *development work* rather than pushing paper
<lifeless> psusi: changing a triaged bug to incomplete just adds work
<lifeless> psusi: why do that at all ?
<psusi> yes yes, I should have been able to tell that if you had touched them they should have just been triaged
<psusi> lifeless, because then they can expire when the required information is not provided
<lifeless> psusi: sorry, were they set to New? I may have mossed context
<cjwatson> psusi: that's just as bad!
<psusi> rather than language there for years, often times eventually having other people add useless comments to them about totally unrelated problems
<lifeless> psusi: triaged explicitly means that we have all the information needed already.
<cjwatson> psusi: languishing for years is better than being closed incorrectly.
<psusi> lifeless, right... but they were either new or confirmed... I've been trying to get new bugs to triaged if possible
<psusi> cjwatson, why?  if it is just a dumpster for user ranting.. why is it better left new?
<cjwatson> psusi: from slangasek's descriptions, that was not the case of some of the bugs you closed, so I don't think you can rely on that justification
<cjwatson> psusi: most of the bugs I see people closing incorrectly (or marking Incomplete incorrectly) are *not* just dumpsters for rants
<cjwatson> and most of the complaints I see about Launchpad aren't about bugs being full of users' rants, they're about them being full of incorrect triage actions
<cjwatson> excuse me, child is crying
<kees> neato http://midnightresearch.com/pages/graph-of-running-binary-sections/
#ubuntu-devel 2010-11-02
<cjwatson> kees: I wonder why he still has a mountall process running
<cjwatson> oh, heck, Ubuntu 9.10
<kees> yeah, I was going to try to spin that up on a more modern system.
<ScottK> cjwatson: re maintainer lock and Ubuntu - Maintainer is Ubuntu developers, so perhaps that means non-developers shouldn't be invalidating bugs?
<RoAkSoAx> sud/win 9
<RoAkSoAx> pff
<charlie-tca> We did get 'won't fix' and 'fix-released' locked now. anything is possible
<ScottK> charlie-tca: We were rather discussing the opposite problem of people deciding that there was some age that magically made bugs bad.
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> I read the backlogs. That was a comment on the "non-developers shouldn't be invalidating bugs"
<charlie-tca> Might help to lock down more statuses
<charlie-tca> It is hard sometimes to know what to do with bugs, but most developers will tell you if asked.
<cjwatson> psusi: BTW, I'm sorry we didn't meet up at UDS (did you make it?  I saw scrollback suggesting you were thinking about going); this conversation would probably have been friendlier over a beer :-)
<psusi> indeed, I knew I should have run over there damnit... I didn't realize it was in town until it had started already
<psusi> I hopped in the irc channel for a meeting I saw scheduled about grub but nobody seemed to say anything
<cjwatson> I didn't hear about that
<cjwatson> was that a bugsquad meeting?
<psusi> I think it was to do with leaving the graphics mode on with the graphics payload option so plymouth could take over the screen without switching back and forth to text mode
<cjwatson> oh, you mean the UDS IRC channel
<cjwatson> most of the conversations were audio-streamed - there was only IRC conversation if people were participating via IRC
<psusi> your comment about service ticket vs. bug report resonated with me... it seems like a number of bug reports are really service requests rather than describing a defect.. what is the proper way to handle those?
<cjwatson> anyway, most of that was about organising the kernel bug triage work so that we can actually leave the grub switch on this time round; the bulk of the work has already been done there (although ebroder is doing some extra stuff to let us handle a blacklist/whitelist at boot time)
<psusi> that's what I figured... and I was at work at the time so couldn't get the audio streaming
<cjwatson> service requests should often be converted to questions (though ask somebody to double-check if you're going to do that in bulk)
<cjwatson> mostly crash reports should be left where they are, though.  it would be nice if we had a separate crash database that was better optimised for that work, but we don't
<lifeless> cjwatson: we're happy to optimise things in lp
<lifeless> cjwatson: if you can tell us what you want (or even supply patches ;))
<cjwatson> well, TBH I think crashes should be entirely separate from bugs, and promotable to bugs once the crash has been analysed
<cjwatson> this seems a tad out of scope for the sort of thing I'm likely to be able to patch in a spare afternoon
<lifeless> cjwatson: that would make sense to me
<psusi> I'm looking at bug #668595 at the moment... I'm sure you can see that the description is not a useful bug report... converting it to a question though eh?  I'm not even sure I can frame it as a useful question...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 668595 in evince (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu 10.10 Slow as hell after dist-upgrade from ubuntu 10.04" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/668595
<cjwatson> not a new idea, though; see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CrashReporting for instance
<cjwatson> psusi: I agree that that isn't a useful bug, and it would be best to convert it to a question.  Doing so doesn't require you to do any framing at all - questions are generally in that kind of phrasing, and the workflow is that helpers work through the problem back and forth with the asker
<cjwatson> (whether anyone will be able to help him, I'm not sure; but the good thing about converting that way is that the message sent to the reporter isn't that their bug has been invalidated, but that it's been moved)
<psusi> hrm... ok...
<cjwatson> of course there are certainly other forums, e.g. askubuntu.com seems popular lately
<cjwatson> I mostly only invalidate bugs on the spot when somebody just banged a few random words into the web form, which seems to happen occasionally for installer bugs for some reason
<psusi> heh... yea.. saw that one you had touched because ubiquity crashed trying to install grub and the guy said the problem was something about graphics settings... graphics?  what?!
 * ajmitch is reluctant to file bugs when it was something along the lines of 'laptop randomly crashed, apport has detected a kernel dump'
<ajmitch> also because apport was taking 3GB of RAM when trying to file it, it never succeeded unfortunately
<cjwatson> sometimes the weirdest things turn out to be relevant though.  although it isn't the case right now, you might imagine that grub was looking at the X display resolution at install time in order to construct a splash image, and in that case graphics could well be relevant
<psusi> ok... what if a bug does not apply to the current release, but is confirmed and triaged for a previous one?  it should be tracked in that release right?  but it seems like to get that to happen, you have to nominate it for that release and make a compelling case for an SRU... what if it fails to meet the criteria for an SRU?
<ebroder> psusi: No, nominating a bug for a release and arguing for an SRU are two different steps
<lifeless> nomination is a release-manager task
<lifeless> its going to be locked down soon
<lifeless> nomination is 'this bug is needed to do that release'
<psusi> I thought that was milestone?
<psusi> and tracking in a release was to track SRUs?
<cjwatson> I think the proposal was to lock down nominations to developers
<cjwatson> that was what I read at least, and makes a little bit more sense to me than restricting to release managers (since only release managers can *accept* nominations)
 * ajmitch thought that core devs could accept nominations, was that changed?
<psusi> right... but don't they only accept a nomination as part of approving an SRU?
<cjwatson> ajmitch: oh, maybe
<cjwatson> psusi: the problem is that the nomination queue is unusable because people see the button and go "ooh, yeah, I'd like that fixed in lucid please"
<psusi> exactly
<cjwatson> so it does need to be locked down more than it currently is
<cjwatson> anyway, to answer your question, if the bug is already targeted and fails to meet SRU criteria, then Won't Fix is appropriate, but IMO that action should normally be taken by the body responsible for deciding whether bugs meet SRU criteria, i.e. the ubuntu-sru team
<psusi> sure... but is my understanding of the purpose incorrect?  isn't it to track an SRU?  so if a case can not be made for an SRU, it should not even be nominated?
<psusi> hrm... then perhaps a triager should nominate it for the release and note to the sru team that a compelling SRU case can not be made, so it should probably just be set as WONTFIX, but none the less does exist in that release so its status should be tracked there to differentiate it from the development release where it isn't an issue?
<cjwatson> if it doesn't have the faintest hope of meeting SRU criteria, or if developers aren't interested in proposing it, and it isn't already nominated, then the right thing to do is normally to simply set the status according to its status in the development release; that is, if it's fixed there, it should be Fix Released, etc.
<cjwatson> there's no point in shovelling stuff through the nomination queue when we already know the answer is no
<cjwatson> a very large number of bugs exist in stable releases, but we need to be able to do effective stable release management without drowning in them
<cjwatson> effective stable release management includes fixing the right bugs, of course, not just saying no all the time :-)
<psusi> so then as a general rule, if a bug is reported in an older release, and they try a new release and find the problem has gone away, it should be marked as fix released rather than targeted to the version where it is known to still be broken?
<maco> ajmitch: motu can accept nominations for universe bugs..
<ajmitch> maco: ah right, I was probably just asked to accept nominations for things I could upload to :)
<cjwatson> roughly, yes, though I would recommend attempting to understand the problem too.  for example I often see people closing bugs for that kind of reason when the problem isn't fixed at all - usually because either the triager didn't have a setup suitable for reproducing the bug in the first place, or because the scope of the problem got more limited
<maco> i believe the lp blog said they were being locked to the bug driver (is that the term?) which in ubuntu's case is Bug Control
<cjwatson> it's normally easy if the reporter says it's gone away; otherwise it's a good idea to make a bit more of an effort
<cjwatson> maco: ah, right, that sounds like what I was misquoting, though
<cjwatson> s/though/thanks/
<micahg> still on this tpoic?
<micahg> *topic
<highvoltage> micahg: it's obviously important :)
<micahg> indeed
<ScottK> micahg: I believe it is.  Figuring out how to better integrate bug triage efforts and development is an important topic for Ubuntu Development.
 * micahg will review the logs a little later
<gbillings> I have a wireless card that does not currently work in Ubuntu (any release) "Out of Box." It works by simply running a script, which I uploaded here https://launchpad.net/dell1450usb . How would I make it so that is supported out of box in Ubuntu (hopefully by Natty)?
<ScottK> Sigh.
<ajmitch> ScottK: ?
<ScottK> lifeless: ^^^ includes a binary blob, so I don't think it's appropriate for LP.  Is there a process for that?
<ScottK> ajmitch: ^^^
<lifeless> ScottK: context?
<ScottK> lifeless: The branch that gbillings referred to there has a binary blob of some kind in it.
<ScottK> https://launchpad.net/dell1450usb
 * ScottK didn't think such things were allowed on the public launchpad.
<lifeless> ScottK: its CC licensed
 * ScottK looks again
<gbillings> ok what did I miss?
<lifeless> ScottK: according to the front page that is
<slangasek> lifeless: doubtful; it looks to me like a binary blob from somewhere upstream (contains a "created 2006" string in it) that's been mislabeled as CC
<lifeless> grah
<lifeless> gbillings: do you have redistribution rights for what you've uploaded there?
<slangasek> gbillings: you didn't upload just a script, you also uploaded a firmware blob - where did this blob come from?
<ajmitch> debian wiki seems to indicate it's non-free firmware from prism54.org
<slangasek> gbillings: the right way to get such a bug fixed for natty is to file a bug on the linux source package by running 'ubuntu-bug linux'; it's an open question whether we'll be able to use this firmware blob as part of the solution, but when filing the bug please include a pointer to whatever your source for it is
<RoAkSoAx> slangasek: howdy!! By any chance do you have the time to review a couple of library splits (cluster-glue / pacemaker )?
<gbillings> Okay, so file a bug on the "linux" source package, and include a link to where I got the firmware? right?
<lifeless> gbillings: I'm disabling the project
<lifeless> gbillings: because we can't redistribute it
<gbillings> lifeless, what?
<gbillings> oh, ok
<gbillings> so do you wish for me to link to it?
<lifeless> gbillings: huh?
<gbillings> i am so confused
<gbillings> my package is gone
<highvoltage> gbillings: file a bug and explain what you did to get it working on your system. the script that you had in that bzr branch didn't fix the problem in the right place and the right way, so it couldn't be included in ubuntu as it existed there
<lifeless> yes, it was against the launchpad terms of service because of the firmware blob
<gbillings> ok I understand both your points. Thanks for saving me the legal trouble! I didnt realize that it was illegal
<gbillings> I found the firmware here: http://daemonizer.de/prism54/prism54-fw/ ; and wrote the script using information here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=9304551&postcount=4
<YokoZar> Are the plenary talks online yet?
<YokoZar> jcastro: ^^^ or will it take weeks like last time?
<stgraber> YokoZar: AFAIK they're on blip.tv
<YokoZar> stgraber: found it, "Ubuntu Developers" channel
<gbillings> filing the bug as I speak
<ScottK> lifeless: The file is still available through the branch? http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lymera1n/dell1450usb/trunk/annotate/head:/isl3887usb
<lifeless> ScottK: yes
<lifeless> ScottK: https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-code/+bug/669750
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 669750 in Launchpad Bazaar Integration "branches for deactivated projects are accessible" [Undecided,New]
<ScottK> Lovely.
<ScottK> Thanks.
<lifeless> filed it earlier when I noticed
<gbillings> I could have removed it, but it was deactivated
<gbillings> ScottK, how did u even find that?
<ScottK> gbillings: I still had the page open from before it was deactivated.
<gbillings> ScottK, oh, that makes sense
<gbillings> ok, well sorry for the confusion, and I will be sure not to upload fw blobs again to launchpad. night
<micahg> maco:  Ubuntu's bug driver isn't bug control, bug control is the bug supervisor
<maco> micahg: there's more than one bug management thingy?
<micahg> maco: yes, bug supervisor can set the statuses, bug driver will soon be the ones to accept nominations and bug supervisor will be the one to nominate
<maco> confusing
<hyperair> micahg: anyone can nominate afaik.
<micahg> hyperair: ATM, but that will change soon
<hyperair> micahg: ah, okay. but what about contributors who want to prepare SRUs?
<micahg> hyperair: good question :), we'll have to have them subscribe sponsors or something to do it I guess, I'll bring it up at the bugsquad meeting if the agenda isn;t that long
<maco> you dont need to nominate to prepare an sru...
<micahg> maco: it's currently part of the process
<maco> subscribing sponsors is how youd currently get hte debdiff looked at
<hyperair> and to get the SRU acked, you'd nominate and then subscribe -sru
<maco> no...
<hyperair> maybe we should chaneg that process a bit. it's kinda weird
<maco> pre-upload ACK is no longer needed
<hyperair> we can just upload directly to the -proposed pocket.
<hyperair> yeah
<maco> the sponsor uploads it, and when the sru team sees something in teh queue for a stable release, they go look at hte bug
<micahg> hyperair: currently, it's nominate then subscribe sponsors
<maco> as long as you remember to put the LP: # in the changelog, they can find it
<micahg> maco: the sponsor should subscribe --sru
<hyperair> maco: right. so we need to change the process in wiki.
<maco> i wonder how much sru team actually pays attention to subscriptions...
<ebroder> the rules say they should, sure, but as i understand it it's not actually necessary for the normal sru processing procedure
<hyperair> iirc it still asked you to nominate or whatever.
<maco> they're subscribed to a MASSIVE number of bug reports
<maco> of /open/ bug reports
<hyperair> heh
<micahg> maco: yes, but they have scripts to help them
<ebroder> the sponsorship queue doesn't see bugs that are FIX RELEASED and not accepted for a stable release, right?
<micahg> ebroder: I would think it should
 * micahg sees SRUs in the queue
<ebroder> but are those cases where stable release nominations have been accepted?
<micahg> ebroder: yes, I think so, I'm starting to see the problem :)
<ebroder> hmm...looks like merge proposals stay open. i guess that's another point for udd
<dholbach> good morning!
<persia> highvoltage, Thanks for the pointer, although I believe the derivation happened the other way in this case, as we had flavours long before Debian had pure blends.
 * Hobbsee flushes the ubuntu-devel ML queue
<Hobbsee> there was mail from april there :(
<Laney> :(
<nigelb> ?
<geser> cjwatson: as you TIL gparted last, can you look at bug 669826 (sync for natty) and bug 617885 (maverick SRU candidate) please
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 669826 in gparted (Ubuntu) "Sync gparted 0.7.0-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/669826
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 617885 in gparted (Ubuntu) "gparted crash at start: glibmm-ERROR **" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/617885
<sladen> who's a good contact for "The Ubuntu Solutions" group within C. ?
<TheMuso> c
<Pici> python
<directhex> c#!
<nigelb> perl
* bilalakhtar changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: 10.10 released on 10/10/10 at 10:10:10UTC!! | Natty is open | Many SRUs needed for Maverick | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-maverick | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<bilalakhtar> Removed the phrase about the UDS channel from the topic
<pitti> Good morning
<cjwatson> geser: ok
 * cjwatson adds to growing queue :-(
<bilalakhtar> Do packages that have passed Debian NEW also need to go through Ubuntu NEW?
<seb128> did somebody start doing an autosync run?
<seb128> cjwatson, pitti: ^?
<seb128> seems the queue has an half done run
<pitti> not me
<pitti> bilalakhtar: formally yes, but we fast-pace them
<seb128> bilalakhtar, somewhat, they go through new but get accepted without checking
<pitti> i. e. usually when an archive admin syncs new pakcages from Debian, he would make a list of them and accept them wholesale
<cjwatson> seb128: it's me
<cjwatson> please hold
<cjwatson> not an autosync, I was processing new-source and didn't finish
<seb128> cjwatson, ok
<cjwatson> keeps falling over
<cjwatson> seb128: all yours
<seb128> cjwatson, thank you!
<kees> pitti: tb meeting shortly
<pitti> kees: oh, right; that timezone
<kees> pitti: oh, did it move?
<pitti> kees: no, I did :)
<kees> heh, okay.
<pitti> kees: but due to the different DST in Europe and US I'm not actually sure whether it's now or in 1 h
<pitti> my calendar shows it both times
<kees> yeah. fridge says "3pm", but I don't think it's right
<bilalakhtar> Did an aytosync take place recently?
<bilalakhtar> *autosync
<Laney> at least new-source did, from backscroll
<mathiaz> BlackZ: yes - the package set for ubuntu-server exists
<BlackZ> mathiaz: what packages are part of it?
<Laney> BlackZ: edit_acl.py -P ubuntu-server -S natty query using lp:ubuntu-archive-tools
<BlackZ> Laney: oh, yes, this is a way to know that, thanks!
<dholbach> or check out http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/packagesets
<Laney> hmm, that doesn't appear to show all sets
<Laney> does have server though
<RoAkSoAx> BlackZ: please before working on any package related to the HA team let me know!! :)
<persia> Laney, I think that shows sets that are related to flavours, and so therefore more interesting for ogre-model, release-tracking, etc.
<persia> RoAkSoAx, Careful: always good to offer support, but we don't have maintainers in Ubuntu, and don't block.
<Laney> persia: OK, so I won't bother committing this to memory, and will remember the more general method instead.
<RoAkSoAx> BlackZ: that is all the ha clustering related packages (DRBD, keepalived, RHCS, pacemaker, heartbeat, corosync, cluster-agents, cluster-glue, etc :))
<RoAkSoAx> persia: That's why I'm saying he should le me know before working on them becuase I care for those packages and we are wroking on them as part of the Cluster Stack Blueprint
<RoAkSoAx> persia: and I might not always want to merge/sync a package sometimes because I have changes to apply and so on...
<persia> RoAkSoAx, I understand, and that's why I'm saying be careful.  If you want to maintain stuff in Ubuntu, you have to be quick enough that nobody else has any pending changes without your responses.  We frown strongly on anyone who blocks others work, even for packages they tend to upload.
<persia> The one exception is that we discourage random folk from processing merges prior to DIF unless they touched it last *OR* really, really want it because it blocks other work.
<RoAkSoAx> persia: indeed, and again that's why I recommended him to let me know before working on them so that if he does, we can work together :)
<persia> And that's good :)  This is why I said "be careful" rather than "we don't do that", because I couldn't quite tell which way you meant it :)
<RoAkSoAx> persia: :)
<RoAkSoAx> persia: language barrier :)
<BlackZ> RoAkSoAx: sure, will do
<ion> roaksoax: a.k.a. IRC as usual :-)
<persia> RoAkSoAx, Yeah, probably.  I just want to be careful, as we had some talks around "maintainers" and "ubuntu doesn't have maintainers" at UDS, and consensus appeared to be to push with not having maintainers harder (unless I missed something).
<Laney> We are moving towards having smaller teams of people maintain certain packages though
<persia> Laney, Um, sorta, for values of "maintain".  We strive to avoid any maintainer block, except in terms of reducing size of groups as we dig deeper in the ogre-model.
<RoAkSoAx> persia: I wonder in what session I was during that talk.. :) And yes I do understand your point and that's how's always been (not having "pkg maintainers"), but in our particular case those packages are undergoing changes that are being worked out with upstream/Debian becuase of the MIR blockers, so we are currently working on them to get them in shape for Main
<persia> Yeah, well, I'm still trying to stuff *every* package in main by fiat without any more MIRs, but it will take another couple cycles.
<persia> Well, not *every* package, but at least all of universe.
<RoAkSoAx> lol :)
<cjwatson> persia: *cough* I think that's more "replace MIRs with some other review process"?
<RoAkSoAx> we've been trying to get the cluster-stack into main the past 2 releases though :)
<persia> cjwatson, No.  That said, we *will* need ways to indicate that various packages have undergone security review, code review, etc.  I don't think that will have anything to do with the presence/absence in the "main" component.
<cjwatson> persia: I didn't say it would have anything to do with presence/absence in the main component.  But saying that MIRs go away is wrong - we need to have some kind of review process
<cjwatson> I suspect that the two of us are agreeing, but I'm trying to make sure other people are not misled
<persia> Oh, certainly.  I'm hoping you (and several others) will attend my spec on "package review types and reporting" at next UDS.
<persia> And I think we do agree in general, although the specifics need more discussion.
<cjwatson> feel free to subscribe me so I notice
<pitti> persia: me as well, please
<persia> Sure, although it will be another 4-5 months before I write it up.
<ebroder> cyphermox__: thanks for the super quick review
<cyphermox__> ebroder, np. if you have time to apply it to the other branch, then go ahead, otherwise I'll get around to it later ;)
<ebroder> cyphermox__: i just submitted a new merge proposal. i'm not in any rush; just wanted this done by release :)
<cyphermox__> ebroder, alright, thanks!
<barry> hi folks, now that pysupport for python 2.7 has landed for natty, i need to get the python-cheetah package rebuilt.  2.4.3-0ubuntu1 is published but ftbfs because pysupport was out of date.  now that the latter is fixed, i think we just need a rebuild but i don't seem to be able to (or maybe know how) to request that from launchpad.  does an archive admin need to do that?
<cjwatson> barry: no, any uploader
<cjwatson> we don't have binary-only rebuilds in LP yet, so you have to bump the changelog and reupload
<cjwatson> oh, wait
<cjwatson> did it build to start wth?
<cjwatson>    cheetah | 2.4.3-0ubuntu1 |         natty | source
<cjwatson> python-cheetah | 2.0.1-2ubuntu7 |         natty | amd64, armel, i386, powerpc
<barry> cjwatson: we sync'd 2.4.3 from debian but that build failed
<cjwatson> looks like not
<cjwatson> $ ubuntu-build --batch --retry cheetah
<cjwatson> done
<barry> cjwatson: it should build now that pysupport is updated (it builds in my chroot just fine now)
<barry> cjwatson: awesome, thanks!
<cjwatson> the script's in ubuntu-dev-tools and anyone with upload access can use that.  alternatively it's in the web UI for each build page, though that takes longer
<barry> cjwatson: yep, that's why i can see the ui widget for my ppas but not (yet <wink>) for the cheetah page
<persia> The conventional way for non-uploaders to request rebuilds for which no binaries exist is "Could someone please give-back foo on arch bar?", which almost always results in someone pressing the button within 10-15 minutes for me.
<barry> persia: "give-back"?
<persia> barry, Yeah.  Historical terminology from the Debian wanna-build infrastructure.
<tumbleweed> barry: give back to the buildd
<barry> ah, thanks
 * barry thought it was something like "pay it forward" :)
<tumbleweed> we really should have a glossary of debian terms somewhere
<barry> tumbleweed: dholbach is working on that i think!
<dholbach> errrrrrrrrrrr
<dholbach> guys, I don't own the wiki :-P
<dholbach> for now, there's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/glossary?action=show&redirect=UbuntuDevelopment/Abbreviations :)
<dholbach> barry, tumbleweed: for now, there's https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/glossary?action=show&redirect=UbuntuDevelopment/Abbreviations :)
<dholbach> it should be linked form UbuntuDevelopment/KnowledgeBases afaik
<dholbach> but yeah, there should be some better "introductory docs" at the end of this cycle
<barry> dholbach: i was thinking about your documentation ideas at uds-n, specifically the idea (maybe only in my own head) about a reference manual and glossary
<dholbach> the one I had in mind doesn't have the spec written yet, but it was the one about having introductory test/ presentation /etc. that in a way that's easy to understand at least mentions all the big topics and explain how they fit together plus a few nice diagrams
<dholbach> it's not going to replace a glossary
 * barry nods
<dholbach> but we should make sure to get a few nice articles together for the other spec - I hope that'll make it easier to bring all the buzzwords in context :)
<SpamapS> so, is there a reason some packages have Vcs-Bzr: renamed to Xs-Debian-Vcs-Bzr: ? is that an anachronism that can be removed?
<ebroder> SpamapS: Vcs-Bzr: is canonical according to http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/best-pkging-practices.html#bpp-vcs
<Laney> SpamapS: Does this package have another Vcs-Bzr in place? There's sometimes Ubuntu branches.
<soren> SpamapS: When I've done it, it's been intentional.
<Laney> it would be nice if this were standardised so that tools can make use of it
<soren> SpamapS: If a package isn't synced directly from Debian, claiming that its packaging is kept in the same vcs as Debian is a lie.
<soren> SpamapS: So I change it to Xs-Debian-Vcs-Bzr.
<soren> SpamapS: And put a new Vcs-Bzr header there if there's a better, Ubuntu-specific place for the packaging branch.
<SpamapS> The package is merged from Debian
<SpamapS> the package in question is cheetah btw
<SpamapS> and the weird thing there is, basically all Ubuntu packages have a place where their uploaded versions live. Its only the WIP versions that are missing.. and according to somebody at UDS (forgetting who now) that can be resolved.
<RoAkSoAx> pitti: howdy, when using pmutils, pm-powersave is there a tool that will list which scripts are enabled/disabled? No right?
<mdeslaur> pitti: I seem to recall a discussion at a previous UDS where we talked about executable bit on windows files when mounting a cdrom...did that ever get done? Is bug 561479 the only one for that?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 561479 in udisks (Ubuntu Maverick) "Windows executable on unwritable removable media cannot execute with Wine due to lack of executable bit" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/561479
<seb128> mdeslaur, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+source/udisks/1.0.1-2
<seb128> we had this patch last cycle
<seb128> but I guess it's a different issue now reading your bug
<mdeslaur> seb128: oh, curious...it doesn't work for me
<mdeslaur> seb128: oh, well, cdroms aren't vfat
<mdeslaur> seb128: so it wouldn't be that patch
<seb128> right
<pitti> RoAkSoAx: how do you mean? They are all enabled
<pitti> mdeslaur: exe bit? that got fixed for vfat
<pitti> mdeslaur: not sure what happens with iso9660 these days
<mdeslaur> pitti: yes, but unfortunately not for iso9660 cdroms
<RoAkSoAx> pitti: for example, when we were discussing powernap scripts before UDS with kirkland, we decided that we needed to know which power saving scripts are enabled and which are disabled. So I created a tool to enable/disable and list all the scripts with its status. Now, I'd like to keep that functionality
<mdeslaur> pitti: so people using wine can't install windows programs from cdrom
<RoAkSoAx> pitti: however, since we are now gonna use pm-powersave for such purpose, I was just wondering :)
<pitti> RoAkSoAx: in /etc/ you can rename the files
<mdeslaur> pitti: on lucid and maverick, if the cdrom device is listed in fstab, it gets mounted with the executable bit everywhere. If it's not listed in fstab, it gets mounted with read permissions only.
<pitti> RoAkSoAx: but /usr/lib/pm-utils/power.d/ will always run (unless these scripts have a way to disable themselves by reading a file in /etc)
<ebroder> mdeslaur: maybe we need a showexec option for iso9660 that only takes effect if the cd doesn't use rock ridge?
<pitti> mdeslaur: I see; seems iso9660 doesn't have a "showexec" equivalent :(
<mdeslaur> ebroder: yeah, I think that would be the best approach
 * pitti agrees
<RoAkSoAx> pitti: yeah jsut saw the manpage. I guess that the best thing to do in this case would be to adapt the tool I wrote to work with those two directories.
 * pitti lunch &
<lifeless> kees: hey
<lifeless> kees: so, was the token based thing faster ?
<kees> lifeless: since I can't reproduce the 503s with bug attachments, I won't know until I can test against soyuz output
<lifeless> kees: ah, its just big files right...
<lifeless> I think it will be :)
<kees> lifeless: I have faith :)
<jdstrand> pitti: I just uploaded a new apparmor to maverick-proposed to fix that ftbfs and a missed patch. please see bug #660077
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 660077 in apparmor (Ubuntu Lucid) "update AppArmor to 2.5.1 (for upstream and backported maverick kernels)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/660077
<jdstrand> pitti: I am going through the lucid one next to answer all your questions, etc
<pitti> kees: thanks for quick MIR review, appreciated
<kees> pitti: np
<jdstrand> pitti: I took the liberty of rejecting the lucid one, since it will need the same changes as the one I just uploaded to maverick
<pitti> jdstrand: thanks for the heads-up
<jdstrand> pitti: for clarity, I did not accept the maverick-proposed one, since I uploaded it
<SpamapS> Has anyone attempted to make mk-sbuild use btrfs instead of lvm snapshotting? What better way is there to get heavy testing of btrfs than start doing all of our local test builds on btrfs?
<ebroder> SpamapS: has sbuild grown btrfs support yet? last time i checked i thought it didn't have it yet
<ebroder> (it already uses aufs by default now)
<SpamapS> well I guess I meant sbuild. ;)
<ebroder> err, actually, i think i mean schroot, not sbuild, but you know...
 * ebroder goes and looks around
<ebroder> aha. yeah, (experimental) btrfs support has been in schroot since 1.4.5-1. so mk-sbuild just needs to be changed to set the appropriate options in schroot.conf
<SpamapS> ebroder: cool
 * SpamapS adds a personal todo to try that out
<kirkland> hallyn: okay, so qemu-kvm-0.13 built and is in natty;  any others waiting on sponsoring by me?  fwiw, I usually do [qemu-kvm, vgabios, seabios, etherboot] all at roughly the same time
<kirkland> hallyn: and will help jdstrand with [libvirt] if necessary
<hallyn> kirkland: i think jdstrand is ready for me to just take over libvirt :)
<hallyn> kirkland: etherboot doesn't need an update.  you already did seabios i believe, and i'm not sure about vgabios (or vice versa on the last two)
<jdstrand> I don't mind doing the apparmor bits, but it is difficult for me to maintain all the other bits
<kirkland> hallyn: heh :-)
<kirkland> hallyn: cool
<hallyn> jdstrand: np, i'll do it as of natty?
<hallyn> jdstrand: shall i put you down as reviewer for merge request?
<kirkland> hallyn: well, for all of the bios packages [seabios, vgabios, etherboot], i only merge to fix bugs and stay in sync with qemu;  they are not exactly "feature driven" projects at this point
<jdstrand> hallyn: that sounds excellent (if slightly surprising based on our last conversation)
<kirkland> hallyn: so there's nothing wrong with holding steady there
<jdstrand> hallyn: yes please
<YokoZar> slangasek: Just FYI if I don't get multiarch by 11.04 I'm gonna add all the gstreamer codecs and their dependencies to ia32-libs
<hallyn> jdstrand: cool, then let's do that
<jdstrand> \o/
<kirkland> hallyn: as for libvirt, I just try to make sure that we have roughly the same libvirt/qemu-kvm combination as Fedora, if possible;  tends to minimize the maintenance
<hallyn> kirkland: uh, ...  so i shouldn't just take the lastest (0.8.5) release for natty you think?
<jdstrand> hallyn: my vote is for 0.8.5 as early as possible, that way there won't be any surprises later in the release (especially since Debian is trying to get squeeze released)
<kirkland> hallyn: well, yeah, it's probably good at this point to just take that as soon as possible
<kirkland> hallyn: right, what jdstrand said
<hallyn> ok
<kirkland> hallyn: as it gets closer to FF and Beta, that's when, if possible, I try to make sure that we have something close to what Fedora has
<hallyn> makes sense
<kirkland> hallyn: and hopefull we'll get a few good qemu-kvm 0.13.x updates in the next 4-5 months too
<kirkland> hallyn: those have been *really* good for the project, IMHO
<hallyn> kirkland: well i guess i'll need to update a laptop to natty so i can actually test it
<hallyn> suppose to do that i just tweak sources.list and do it by hand?
<hallyn> (and pray)
<kirkland> hallyn: or do-release-upgrade -d
<hallyn> kirkland: not in THIS laptop tyvm  :)
<hallyn> kirkland: thanks, i didn't think that would work  yet, will do
 * stgraber upgraded his x201s yesterday. It actually seems to work better since then ;)
<hallyn> hm, maybe nouveau will be more stable :)
<stgraber> 2.6.36 helped for a few stuff
<stgraber> like I can get X applications working in a LXC container as containers can now access unix sockets if the container has access to the file system
<hallyn> stgraber: hm, i can't think what kernel patch that would have ben
<stgraber> hallyn: http://marc.info/?l=linux-netdev&m=127132268217222&w=2 ?
<stgraber> hallyn: not sure that's the one but it seems to match the description dlezcano gave me at uds
<bilalakhtar> Wierd, package liboauth has cleared the Ubuntu NEW queue by the autosyncer but another copy of it is still in the queue!
<hallyn> stgraber: oh, cool.   more corner cases
<bilalakhtar> Can someone delete the queue copy? I uploaded it myself a few hours ago, didnt know the autosyncer would run today itself
<pitti> bilalakhtar: which queue copy? natty isn't frozen
<pitti> unless it was a pakcage in main?
<bilalakhtar> pitti: NEW queue
<pitti> sorry, s/main/new/
<pitti> bilalakhtar: why would I remove the binaries? I should accept them..
<pitti> oh, sourc
<bilalakhtar> pitti: I mean the source
<pitti> done
<bilalakhtar> thanks pitti
<mgunes> f
<geser> cjwatson: re gparted: should I ask someone else for sponsoring both bugs? (both bugs are also in the sponsoring queue)
<hallyn> jdstrand: hey, now i can't recall what soren (was it soren?) was admonishing you for - does he want the quitl patches APPLIED or NOT APPLIED in the bzr tree?
<persia> both are accepted models: check the status of other patches in the package.
<jdstrand> hallyn: 09:11 < soren> jdstrand: The quilt source packages are special. When I add a  patch, I need to add it both to debian/patches /and/ apply it to  the source tree.
<jdstrand> hallyn: ie, 'quilt push -a ; bzr add' before committing
<hallyn> thanks
<pitti> dpkg-buildpackage usually applies them for you if you build the source
<hallyn> jdstrand: one more q - do you have a process all figured out for how you set up the gnulib/ directory?
<hallyn> or do you do it ad-hoc?
<jdstrand> hallyn: I would hope that upstream already did that in their upstream tarball. did they not?
<hallyn> oh.  i was going to take from git :)
<jdstrand> 0.8.5 is released. I recommend that
<hallyn> yes,
<hallyn> i was doing 'git reset --hard' to that commit-id :)
<hallyn> so you do a 'uscan' and then copy that back into the bzr tree?
<jdstrand> hallyn: well, I haven't done a source merge since soren requested we use this method
<jdstrand> hallyn: there are prbably better ways to do it, but I personally would delete everything out of the directory except .bzr*, then untar into it. then 'bzr add'
<hallyn> all right, will do.
<hallyn> jdstrand: thanks
<jdstrand> that will definitely get you the upstream source
<jdstrand> hallyn: sure thing
<persia> Isn't there a merge-upstream function to bzr-buildpackage that is intended to handle this case?
<persia> (and it might even do the right thing WRT patch application, or need a bug filed)
<hallyn> persia: well, i don't know, but i already know there are lots of patches in debian/patches which will no longer apply, so somethign more manual will be less painful anyway
<hallyn> i though, i see the help page...
<persia> If you're going to be using bzr, I'll recommend using bzr-buildpackage, as I know a few folks have put a lot of effort into trying to make it just work.
<hallyn> persia: yeah, i do use bzr bd
<hallyn> persia: hm, sure, i'll try bzr mu - might be nice
<persia> You probably still have to semi-manually reconcile/merge the patches (although `bzr patch` can help) but you may not have to deal with completely raw integration.
<hallyn> persia: doh!  bzr: ERROR: Unknown target distribution: natty
<hallyn> tsk tsk :)
 * hallyn will fix that up by hand later i guess
<persia> heh.  That needs a bug :)
<jelmer> hallyn, persia: There is a bug fix for that in bzr-builddeb trunk.
<hallyn> jelmer: ah, ok, thx
<jelmer> I believe there were also folks looking at backporting it to maverick, but I'm not sure what the status of that is.
<persia> jelmer, What is usually done with other tools is to update it just before release.  Question being whether it's intended for Ubuntu Developers or for folk wishing to work with the packages they have installed.
<cjwatson> geser: no, it's OK, I'll take care of them
<emgent> hello
<emgent> jdstrand: ping ?
<emgent> pitti: around ?
 * persia notes that asking for functions instead of people is frequently more powerful
<emgent> lol, heya persia! how goes?
<persia> Fairly well, although UDS leaves me tired.  For you?
<emgent> really fine, checking someone from secteam for talk about proftpd 0day security issue.
<persia> Nobody is in -hardened today?
<emgent> seems that idle win today
<emgent> have you saw http://bugs.proftpd.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3521 ?
<ubottu> bugs.proftpd.org bug 3521 in core "Telnet IAC processing stack overflow" [Blocker,Resolved: fixed]
<emgent> tring to exploit it, but seems up a stack protection.
<emgent> the issue was found for sure via code review
<persia> Probably worth pushing a patch to ubuntu-security-sponsors and keeping chasing folk on -hardened.
<persia> Most 0-day stuff doesn't hit the embargoed queue, so less likely to be duplicate effort.
<emgent> for now seems that patch is not needed, i'm hardly testing the stuff but seems up a stack protection
<jdstrand> emgent: well, you only asked for kees in #ubuntu-hardened
<emgent> heya jdstrand, nice to see you
<jdstrand> emgent: anyhoo, hi! if you have a patch, please submit following https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures#Preparing%20an%20update
<jdstrand> emgent: you too
<emgent> jdstrand: have you some min for talk about it? maybe we can move in -hardened
<jdstrand> k
<emgent> thanks
<ari-tczew> can we remove packages from archive, if there is only one binary - sparc ?
<persia> ari-tczew, That's not a good reason, but we can remove stuff.  Which package?
<ari-tczew> persia: xserver-xorg-video-sunleo
<cjwatson> I've generally not found it worth the effort to do so
<cjwatson> it's easier to just sync all those source packages and have them do nothing, rather than go to the effort of maintaining entries in the sync-blacklist for everything that generates only binaries for architectures not in Ubuntu
<persia> We could remove that (use "Unbuildable in Ubuntu" as the reason, and blacklist), but yeah, I don't see the point.
<cjwatson> (and keep track of when source packages add new architectures and remove them from the blacklist, and ...)
<RoAkSoAx> slangasek: howdy... by any chance do you have a bit of time to review couple of debdiffs for library split in cluster-glue and pacemaker?
#ubuntu-devel 2010-11-03
<cjwatson> pitti: hm, I guess I might as well stop bothering to run apt-listchanges on upgrades.  it would be nice to have a replacement for that, since it's a really useful thing to scan on upgrades to see e.g. whether some bug you care about might have been fixed
<cjwatson> or, well, not a replacement, but an alternative way for it to fetch its data
<tazz> would it be wise to still follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebootstrapChroot ?
<tazz> also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete
<ebroder> tazz: instead of the DebootstrapChroot page you can use the mk-sbuild command in ubuntu-dev-tools
<tazz> umm... ok, i'll readup on that. Thanks ebroder
<persia> tazz, What are you trying to accomplish?
<tazz> persia, trying to learn how to package stuff in ubuntu
<persia> New stuff?
<tazz> persia, umm not really. just learning for now :)
<persia> I think you'll have a more successful experience if you either try to package new stuff you want that isn't available, or try to patch old stuff that doesn't work the way you want.  There's enough docs out there that almost nobody actually understands it all, and it's easy to get lost trying to learn if you aren't focused on some tasks.
<persia> Most folk tend to learn enough to do the things they care about, and enough about how to get more info to be comfortable digging up the rest at need (although we're all constantly asking each other for help filling gaps)
<tazz> i see... well there is this anoying bug in amarok i would like to see fixed :p
<tazz> s/anoying/annoying
<persia> Excellent place to start!
<persia> So, first steps are to get the source and hunt down the solution.  Do you know how to do those?
<tazz> apt-get source amarok ?
<persia> Yep.
<microcai> g_socket_client_connect_* cause fd leek when connection refused, anyone notice this ?
<dholbach> good morning!
<hrw> hi
<sosaited> I am trying to install automake 1.11 by compiling source on Lucid, but after running make install. When I check with apt-cache policy automake1.11 , I get http://paste.ubuntu.com/524962/
<persia> sosaited, That's expected.  If you want to manage software with packages, you will need to create a .deb and then install it, rather than using raw make install.  You can start with `apt-get source automake1.11`; then in the unpacked source `debuild -b` to get an approximate dirty package.  If you need clean distributable packages, ask lots more questions here.
<sosaited> persia: Thanks.
<chrisccoulson> no doko today?
<chrisccoulson> could really use some help with bug 663294 :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 663294 in gcc-4.5 (Ubuntu) "Firefox built with gcc-4.5 is a non-starter on i386 with -pie" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/663294
<directhex> mmm pie
<seb128> chrisccoulson, I think he said he would stay some extra days in florida after UDS
<chrisccoulson> seb128 - ah, ok. i guess it will have to wait a few more days
<chrisccoulson> directhex, this is the only time i have found pie to be bad ;)
<chrisccoulson> pie is usually great
<chrisccoulson> :)
<ScottK> chrisccoulson: doko is offline this week.
<\sh> barry: can I bug you about a python setuptools question? :)
<chrisccoulson> ScottK, thanks
 * ScottK notes to \\sh that barry is an old man and this is probably too early for him.
<\sh> ScottK: at least he'll get a hilight :)
<ScottK> Yep.
<sebner> ScottK: isn't he following your lead with "sleep is for the weak" .. even though he is old? :P
<ScottK> sebner: He's definitely weak (although I ought to note he was doing 6AM Ti Chi (or however you spell it) last week and I wasn't.
<ScottK> )
<sebner> hahaha
<persia> +a
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> emgent: at plumber's
<stgraber> morning pitti
<pitti> cjwatson: I wrote apt-changelog yesterday to retrieve it, haven't integrated it into a package yet
<pitti> cjwatson: but an apt-listchanges like replacement should be rather easy -- after all, we know which version is installed and which is the candidate, so it could just crop the downloaded changelog after that
<pitti> cjwatson: do you think "apt-changelog --new mypkg" would do? I could also just change apt-listchanges itself
<pitti> hey stgraber
<pitti> cjwatson: added a WI for me to fix apt-listchanges
<pitti> mvo: would it be okay to you if I added apt-changelog to the apt-utils package? and into cmdline/ in the source package?
<mvo> pitti: sure
<pitti> mvo: ok, thanks
<mvo> pitti: why not part of apt-get ?
<mvo> pitti: or apt-cache
<mvo> pitti: the plan is to add a generic "apt" btw
<pitti> mvo: it's a shell script right now, but I don't mind much
<mvo> pitti: ok, just add it then
<mvo> pitti: I will merge that then
<pitti> mvo: oh, ok; I can do a branch (I was going to commit to lp:apt directly, it's u-core-dev owned)
<mvo> ok
<mvo> either way
<mvo> is fine :)
<pitti> 'k, thanks!
 * pitti -> listen to keynote &
<cjwatson> pitti: I think I'd prefer it to be integrated into apt-listchanges, since it already has other nice UI facilities.  Thanks!
<corecode> hey
<corecode> how do you pull the debian/changelog into the bzr commit message?
<cjwatson> debcommit
<corecode> thanks
<corecode> if i have fixes for a package, should i branch the bzr code and upload them into a private branch?
<corecode> W: sqliteodbc source: diff-contains-bzr-control-dir .bzr
<corecode> am i using the bzr branches properly?
<cjwatson> put DEBUILD_DPKG_BUILDPACKAGE_OPTS="-i -I" in ~/.devscripts
<cjwatson> that will exclude .bzr from the built source package
<corecode> thanks
<corecode> much appreciated
<smoser> cjwatson, are you around ?
<cjwatson> smoser: hi
<smoser> i've beeen asked a couple times to try and get the pv-grub support back into lucid
<smoser> this is fairly easy from a grub-legacy-ec2 perspective, and i've testted general functionality
<smoser> the issue that i'm running into is that in our lucid images, we *need* to have 2 kernels.  the -virtual (for booting under UEC/kvm) and the -ec2 kernel (for booting under ec2)
<smoser> with these changes, grub2 will run, and see 2 kernels (-ec2 and -virtual)
<smoser> the -ec2 is actually numbered > -virtual, so under UEC, grub2 would run, and a reboot would take you into the -ec2 kernel which would fail to boot.
<smoser> would you be open to changes that would explicitly ignore certain (-ec2) kernels in the grub2 lucid code ?
<cjwatson> if possible, for lucid I'd prefer it if the change could be done in an EC2-specific package, to eliminate the possibility of regressions for non-EC2 users
<cjwatson> is there any way to supply configuration to grub2 in this case?
<smoser> we wouldn't need it in maverick or natty, as the -ec2 kernel has been removed from the images, so an upgrade would get you a newer -virtual kernel than the -ec2 kernel, so it would then be selected.
<smoser> i was expecting you would know more than i do, but i didn't immediately see any way to 'configure' /etc/grub.d/10_linux to ignore certain things.
<cjwatson> smoser: I meant, can you feed it a grub.cfg
<cjwatson> or anything else in /boot/grub
<smoser> well, i can write anything i want in /boot/grub either via cloud-init on first boot, or via the image build process.
<smoser> but the goal is to have a normal 'apt-get dist-upgrade' do the right thing (which would run update-grub)
<cjwatson> so the problem is with images that have already been created?
<cjwatson> can -ec2 kernels ever be usefully booted by grub2, on any system?
<smoser> i would say there is a small edge case where someone might have used the -ec2 kernel as a xen domU kernel because it worked for them.
<smoser> rather than building their own kernel
<smoser> wait, but then grub2 wouldn't be loading it
<smoser> grub2 could not be the bootloader for any xen domU that i'm aware of
<smoser> so i think its safe to answer your above question with 'No'.
<pitti> cjwatson: ack
<smoser> cjwatson, the problem would be with future images.
<cjwatson> smoser: if grub2 can never usefully load an -ec2 kernel, then I think it's OK to exclude it using a grub2 SRU
<smoser> and just exclude it by match in 10_linux ?
<cjwatson> please use lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu/lucid/grub2/lucid as the bzr branch for such a change - the lucid version uses cdbs-edit-patch
<cjwatson> I guess so
<smoser> cjwatson, ok. thanks.
<cjwatson> if [ "${version%-ec2}" != "$version" ]; then continue; fi  or some such
<smoser> right.
<cjwatson> er, actually, watch out, that loop has an explicit iterator at the end
<smoser> cjwatson, i'll be careful, and you'll review.
<smoser> :)
<cjwatson> the grotty  list=`echo $list | tr ' ' '\n' | grep -vx $linux | tr '\n' ' '`  bit
<smoser> just a bikeshed question, you would prefer 'if [ ... ] ; then continue; fi' to [ ... ] && continue
<cjwatson> given that you may have to have a copy of that list= bit before the continue, I think if ... fi would be clearer, yes
<cjwatson> (in general I don't mind)
<smoser> ok. thanks cjwatson.
<cjwatson> np, good luck testing that one ...
<cnd> how can I get the info copied into an apport bug summary?
<cnd> I don't want to run apport-collect or apport-cli and get all the other extra files
<cnd> just that nice summary
 * ScottK would appreciate it if someone who has moderator power on the TB list would pay the queue a visit.
<cjwatson> ScottK: done
<ScottK> cjwatson: Thanks.
<ads> Hi all
<ads> Ok, who's responsible for the PHP mess in Ubuntu? ;-)
<ads> I can't get PHP to log parse errors even though I configured every known option and phpinfo() tells me all options are switched on.
<ScottK> ads: You probably want #ubuntu-server.
<ScottK> barry: Speaking of python3.2, any idea why it's failing to build on Natty?
<ads> pff, #ubuntu just forwarded me here ;-)
<ScottK> ads: It's a mistake to come here for support questions.
<Pici> ScottK: I'll sort it out with the person who suggested it.
<ScottK> Thanks.
 * cjwatson idly wonders if we should switch to the perl in experimental
<cjwatson> since it's actually vaguely current
<cjwatson> then again I'm not sure I want to put lots of time into it
<pyghassen> help please
<pyghassen> i got this error
<pyghassen>  subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1
<pyghassen> subprocess: command not found
<ricotz> hi, any reason why the vala 0.11 binaries are still queued?
<seb128> ricotz, the queue just need to be reviewed, there is 63 items there
<seb128> ricotz, basically people have been busy at UDS, travelling back and jet lagged
<seb128> just let some time for people to catch up with everything
<ricotz> seb128, ok, just thinking that this might cause some build failures since the current copied version isnt working right
<seb128> why not?
<ricotz> seb128, glib and gobject-introspection updates, i didnt looked into yet, but it might be the cause for a building problem of dockmanager
<seb128> ricotz, things we will sorted in the next days
<seb128> it's still early natty so build issues are to expect
<seb128> time to land the next versions, merges etc
<seb128> I will review the vala in the queue
<ricotz> seb128, ok ;), no problem
<ricotz> seb128, thanks
<seb128> thank you for pointing issues ;-)
<cjwatson> cyphermox: would you like to test out an isc-dhcp package before I upload it?
<cjwatson> cyphermox: from what I can see, network-manager needs to be rebuilt in order to use dhcp v4?
<cjwatson> (which seems like a flaw ...)
<cyphermox> cjwatson, yeah, needs to be rebuilt later
<cyphermox> it's not ideal, but it will work fine even before rebuild I think
<cyphermox> cjwatson : do you have isc-dhcp in a PPA now?
<cjwatson> just locally
<cjwatson> guess I can stick it in a PPA
<cjwatson> oh, um, natty PPAs aren't switched on yet are they ...
<cjwatson> let me see if I can get that fixed
<cyphermox> cjwatson, what do you mean not switched on? it works for me
<cyphermox> or if you point me to a branch I can build it locally and test it now
<cjwatson> oh, I looked at https://launchpad.net/~cjwatson/+archive/ppa and it didn't have natty in the drop-down - I guess it only lists the ones you've uploaded to
<cyphermox> right
<cjwatson> uploading to that PPA now
<cyphermox> ok.
<cjwatson> before rebuild> it'll use dhclient3, won't it?
<cyphermox> cjwatson, I think it will just work, though possibly try to get v6 as well if you don't specify -4 and/or -6
<cjwatson> it'll still try to look in /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf, from what I can see
<cyphermox> cjwatson, it will use dhclient, the main issue was before i patched it to detect the version, NM would fail trying to pass -4 or -6 to dhclient (which couldn't parse that)
<cyphermox> cjwatson, I though isc-dhcp still looked at those configs too... but either way, from what I recall the config file to use is passed as a parameter
<cjwatson> the postinst copies /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf to /etc/dhcp/dhclient.conf on upgrade from dhcp3-client, and thereafter it uses /etc/dhcp/dhclient.conf
<cyphermox> ok
<cyphermox> well I do pass the config file with -cf
<cjwatson> technically you could purge dhcp3-client after upgrade :-)
<cjwatson> though I'm not sure if that would delete /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf
<Chipzz> cjwatson: what does debian policy say about moving the file instead of copying it in such cases?
<cyphermox> right
<cjwatson> it's not in conffiles any more
<cjwatson> Chipzz: nothing
<cyphermox> cjwatson, if you want me to test, I can give it a quick shot (though I don't have an ipv6 rig), then it could be ready for upload
<cjwatson> cyphermox: if you could - I've tested it just with ifup
<cyphermox> I can also upload a newer NM (but not too new) after testing that as well locally, just to be sure everything is good
<cyphermox> cjwatson, nice job on libpipeline btw
<cjwatson> thanks :)
<cjwatson> hopefully some people other than me will start using it
<cyphermox> cjwatson, I already have an idea for it
<cjwatson> cool, let me know if it exposes any weaknesses in the library
<cyphermox> sure
<cyphermox> hmm... actually I wonder if it could even be used by NM to do things like finally implementing proper two-factor auth for VPNs (e.g. password changes)
<cjwatson> has it been avoiding fork/execve 'cos of the hassle?
<cjwatson> didrocks said he was going to look at whether it would be feasible to integrate libpipeline with the glib event loop somehow
<cjwatson> which may not always matter, it depends on the circumstances
<cjwatson> grr, failed to build
<cjwatson> that's odd, libldap2-dev hasn't changed ...
<cjwatson> ah, I bet it's a --no-add-needed thing
<ScottK> didrocks: When you uploaded gtk-doc-tools it appears you dropped the highlight build-dep, but not the runtime depends so it's now uninstallable.
<didrocks> ScottK: urgh, sorry, will fix that right away
<ScottK> didrocks: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/atk1.0/1.32.0-0ubuntu3/+build/2030284 is the result.
<ScottK> Thanks.
<didrocks> ScottK: uploaded, if you want to give it a higher priority to avoid too many FTBFSâ¦ thanks :)
<ScottK> didrocks: I can't.  Needs a buildd admin.
<didrocks> ScottK: oh, I was thinking archive admin can as well, ok
<ScottK> pitti or cjwatson: ^^^ would you please rescore gtk-doc
<ScottK> Nope.
<ScottK> I can but ask like any other mortal.
<Laney> A team which ScottK isn't a member of? Never thought I'd see the day.
<highvoltage> Laney: he's gone soft!
<ari-tczew> is XS-Python-Version: >= 2.5 okay for Ubuntu ?
<ari-tczew> or maybe we should require >= 2.7 since natty?
<cjwatson> ScottK: gtk-doc is already successfully built?
<ScottK> Maybe it was fast.
 * ScottK looks
<cjwatson> hmm, ubuntu-build doesn't notice the newer upload
<ScottK> It's building now in any case.
<cjwatson> damn, lost the opportunity to fix the bug :-)
<cyphermox> cjwatson, back from lunch, downloading isc-dhcp now.
<cjwatson> cyphermox: 4.1.1-P1-11ubuntu1~ppa2 has built but isn't published yet
<cjwatson> though I guess you can get it from LP
<geser> ari-tczew: did the package stopped working with older python version or why the bump?
<cyphermox> that's what I did
<ScottK> ari-tczew: XS-P-V is based on what the upstream source requires.  It should never be changed because of what versions we have in the archive.
<ari-tczew> geser: Didn't test. Why added? bug 39196
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 39196 in gnome-randr-applet (Ubuntu) "Wrong display of current rotation" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/39196
<pitti> ScottK: gtk-doc already built
<ScottK> pitti: Yep.  It got there very quickly anyway.
 * ScottK should have looked at the build queue before calling for help.
<pitti> ScottK: np
<pitti> superm1: do you think you can review/approve https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-desktop-n-package-field-modaliases this week? mostly to confirm that this is what you need?
<pitti> mvo: do you have a minute to review/approve https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-desktop-n-automatic-printer-driver-download-should-support-signed-packages this week? should be easy
<mvo> pitti: sure
<cjwatson> cyphermox: any luck?
<cyphermox> cjwatson, looks okay, aside from an issue with the apparmor profile
<cjwatson> cyphermox: oh?
<cyphermox> can't create the lease file, hold on
<cjwatson> odd
<cjwatson>   /var/lib/dhcp/dhclient* lrw,
<cyphermox> ah
<cjwatson> (used to be /var/lib/dhcp3/)
<cyphermox> that's why I'll need to recompile NM I think :?
<cjwatson> could be
<cyphermox> I'm sure
<cyphermox> the error was with /var/lib/dhcp3
<cjwatson> ah, yes, NM_DHCLIENT_LEASE_DIR
<cjwatson> I wonder if isc-dhcp-client needs to Breaks: old versions of n-m, or if it won't matter
<cyphermox> It doesn't seem to break negotiation, it's just that I expect the lease re-neg might not work properly
<cjwatson> seems odd that network-manager has no package relationship at all with dhcp3-client/isc-dhcp-client
<cjwatson> despite having compiled-in assumptions about it
<cyphermox> well, I added that because the newer branch was done with only isc-dhcp4 in mind.. I had to patch NM to try and cope with v3
<cjwatson> right, but shouldn't it depend on the one it's built for or something?
<cyphermox> I guess so. I think there was a bug in the past about not depending on dhcp though :)
<cjwatson> joy
<cyphermox> With isc-dhcp I could get rid of this stuff now
<cjwatson> my basic worry here is about partial upgrades from maverick to natty, for whatever reason
<cjwatson> we may not have to worry about it right now, but I would like us to think about it
<cyphermox> cjwatson, if I add a Recommends now, would that
<cyphermox> be sufficient?
<cjwatson> wouldn't really make any difference
<cyphermox> well, it could pull in isc-dhcp
<cjwatson> Recommends affects what's initially selected for dist-upgrade and such but is otherwise advisory
<cjwatson> that's going to happen with the new version anyway since dhcp3-client is now a transitional package depending on isc-dhcp-client.  A Recommends is weaker than that
<cyphermox> ok
<cjwatson> the problem is, what happens if somebody does say 'apt-get upgrade' which only pulls in the new network-manager but won't pull in the new isc-dhcp-client (because it's a new package and 'apt-get upgrade' won't do that)
<cyphermox> ah
<cjwatson> sure, we can say "don't do that then" but really the package relationship fields ought to forbid it
<cyphermox> well, NM still works with dhcp4 though... just the lease stuff is broken. Unsure of what the other impacts might be
<cjwatson> ideally it should be impossible to install the old n-m with the new isc-dhcp-client, or the new n-m with the old dhcp3-client
<cjwatson> we could do that by versioned Breaks each way, perhaps
<cyphermox> I'm happy to set this up for testing in the NM ppa for natty
<cjwatson> so n-m Breaks: dhcp3-client (<< 4)  (note you need the version here to exclude the transitional package)  and isc-dhcp-client Breaks: network-manager (<< whatever-version-is-rebuilt-for-v4)
<cjwatson> does that sound reasonable?
<cyphermox> yeah
<cjwatson> just to avoid having to debug weird bugs due to lack of lease renegotiation
<cyphermox> well, the new NM will also need to build-dep on the new dhcp, too
<cjwatson> right
<cyphermox> do you have isc-dhcp in a bzr branch?
<cyphermox> or do you want to upload and test fixing upgrades in parallel?
<cjwatson> I don't have it in bzr right now, it was tedious for some reason I forget
<cjwatson> you can just copy it from my PPA to the n-m one
<cyphermox> but then it would be missing the added Breaks ;)
<cjwatson> I can upload a ppa3 for that if you tell me the version number
<cyphermox> sure, just a second
<cyphermox> if you Breaks: network-manager (<< 0.8.2~rc1) I think it should be good. 0.8.2~rc1 was tagged a few days ago, and I'll upload the latest commit on that git branch
<cyphermox> cjwatson, with these changes, network-manager would end up held until dist-upgrade, right?
<cjwatson> OK
<cjwatson> yes, I believe so
<cyphermox> ok
<cjwatson> uploaded
<cyphermox> cjwatson, thanks
<Riddell> how do I tell /usr/lib/pbuilder/pbuilder-satisfydepends not to run autoremove?
<kees> chrisccoulson: have you opened an upstream gcc bug yet? I'd say that after doing the -snapshot test and isolating the assembler difference should be more than enough for upstream to poke at it.
<chrisccoulson> kees - yeah, i might do that in a bit
<chrisccoulson> as long as what i've done makes sense ;)
<kees> chrisccoulson: from my perspective, yes, quite. :)
<mgunes> mvo, I surmise that update-manager no longer switches to partial upgrade mode every time it needs to install a new package, but offers "New install" items under a "Distribution updates" heading instead. Is this valid for all new packages? Are there any remaining cases for partial upgrades? I haven't found the new behavior documented anywhere.
<mvo> mgunes: the only time it will ask for partial is if it needs to remove a package - but that should not happen on stable
<mgunes> mvo, is partial still to be expected in the development branch when the archive is inconsistent?
<cody-somerville> Riddell, Can you set a contact e-mail address for kubuntu-ppa so that I don't get e-mailed about that team's build failures?
<highvoltage> LP really needs to fix that somehow :)
<soren> highvoltage: Some of us use that as a feature, actually :)
<rangerpb> question about building .debs.  Using dh_make and dpkg-buildpackage to compile and package things up, if I needed to add a user before installation of the package, where would I stick that?  In the rpm spec, it's in %pre
<cjwatson> call adduser in a preinst script
<cjwatson> normally lives in either debian/preinst or debian/<package>.preinst (the former applies to the first binary package listed in debian/control)
<rangerpb> yes, there is a foo/debian/preinst.ex file
<rangerpb> do I rename that to just preinst?
<rangerpb> And do I have to "hook" it somehow?  because I actually did add it in there, and it didnt work earlier, so I figured I had something messed up
<cjwatson> rename it to preinst, yes.
<Riddell> cody-somerville: ok
<cjwatson> use 'dpkg -I foo.deb' to see if it winds up in your package
<cjwatson> unless you have decided to write debian/rules extremely very much by hand, you don't need to hook it
<cjwatson> all the .ex files should either be renamed or removed
<rangerpb> cjwatson, ah, ok, now I see the difference.  during dh_auto_install of the package, it checks for the user and fails bc it doesn't exist.  the preinst file only goes in once it is build I presume?
<cody-somerville> Riddell, ty
<rangerpb> so maybe I need to manually add it to complete the build of the package.
<cjwatson> rangerpb: you'll need to fix the upstream build system
<cjwatson> it needs to not rely on a particular user being present during build - it won't be present e.g. when you upload it to a PPA
<cjwatson> (and there's no way that you can add it in such an environment)
<rangerpb> Ok, i thought it was goofy to begin with
<Wubbbi> When do you (we) start to add realy big changes to ubuntu natty?
<BUGabundo> evening
<persia> Wubbbi, A couple weeks ago, if they are ready.
<Wubbbi> persia: ok sound nice. :)
<Wubbbi> Do someone know when the fglrx driver will be updated in Natty. We still have an old version. Can someone maybe maintain it?
<ScottK> Wubbbi: #ubuntu-x is a better place for such questions.
<Wubbbi> ok
<superm1> pitti, oh i didn't realize that's an action I had to do. that all looks correct ot me
<pitti> superm1: thanks; was mainly meant as a peer review
<pitti> superm1: I set you as approver since you requested the change
 * pitti -> back to conf
<ari-tczew> could someone sponsor 4 merges for main prepared by MOTUs?
<sebner> ari-tczew: just subscribe the queue and wait patiently like we all do ;)
<ari-tczew> sebner: saying 'wait patiently' is pretty deprecated.
<sebner> ari-tczew: well sure, but in the long run you risk to have an "annoying" attitude
<micahg> ari-tczew: no, it's still the normal process unless it's needed quickly
<persia> ari-tczew, Really, wait patiently is *not* deprecated.  Showing excessive failure to wait patiently is very much not preferred.
<ari-tczew> I don't care.
 * ari-tczew feels stronger that we should clean up sponsors queue.
<persia> As someone who has been responsible for administrating sponsoring for the past few years, I agree it's a good thing, but lots of stuff in the queue is just plain wrong (and always will be).
<persia> Based on the data bdrung presented during one of the sponsoring sessions at UDS, the main issue is for the small subset of packages in core, which I think most of us agree are dangerous to touch, as they affect so many things.
<persia> I'm actually much more in favour of the new initiative (with extra resources thanks to rickspencer3) to treat aged sponsor requests for core in the same way we do patch review (communicating with upstream and debian and generally shepherding stuff), rather than blind uploading.
<persia> We'll have a better distribution for doing it right, even if that means less direct sponsoring.
 * sebner agrees with persia 
<bdrung> ari-tczew: sync and merges are being processed in a timely manner. patiently waiting works there.
<geser> cjwatson: you can take bug 669826 (gparted sync) off your TODO list; bdrung took care of it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 669826 in gparted (Ubuntu) "Sync gparted 0.7.0-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/669826
<bdrung> geser: i process sync requests first - to encourage syncing (and because they are easy)
<geser> bdrung: thanks, I also asked cjwatson as he's TIL for gparted
<bdrung> TIL?
<geser> Touched It Last
<bdrung> k
<geser> he did the last gparted merge
<persia> And for all it's nice to have no barriers, TIL before DIF helps preserve continuity of expertise better than most things we've tried.
<cjwatson> geser: thanks
#ubuntu-devel 2010-11-04
<andreserl> howdy!! Library packages are not supposed to have Depends on ${python:Depends}, or are they?
<ScottK> andreserl: Please don't ask the same questions in multiple channels just a few minutes apart.
<mnajem> anybody experienced problem using gnash on maverick?
<mnajem> mnajem got it using CPU usage almost 100%
 * RAOF wonders how that's different to the regular flash playerâ¦
<mwhudson> can someone remind me/point me to the documentation of what's special about the "metapackages" section?
<RAOF> mnajem: Likely you'll want to file a bug, particularly if you can find a reproducible way of making it misbehave.
<andreserl> ScottK, just noticed that question was more appropriate for -motu that's why I repeat the question there
<ebroder> mwhudson: I don't know about docs, but I think it's implemented by a file in /etc/apt/apt/conf.d
<mnajem> RAOF, thanks
<ScottK> andreserl: In that case, it'd be nice to mention it in the first channel so multiple people don't consider answering the same question.
<andreserl> ScottK, ok :) I'm answering in -motu now
<ScottK> OK
<mwhudson> ebroder: thanks, so it seems my next question is "what does Never-MarkAuto-Sections mean" :-)
 * sanchaz off to bed
<andreserl> kirkland, ping?
<kirkland> andreserl: hi
<andreserl> kirkland, howdy!! quick question :). Ok so I've got another action for powernap.
<kirkland> andreserl: k
<andreserl> kirkland, In lower power state, I change the CPU governor from ondemand to powersave, which sets the CPU freq to 800MHz. Do you know if it is possible to even set it lower by hardcoding the frequency?
<kirkland> andreserl: it's not possible
<kirkland> andreserl: i'm pretty sure that that should already be covered by pm-powersave
<kirkland> andreserl: ie, i don't think you need to do that one
<andreserl> kirkland, there doesn't seem to be any script that actually does that
<andreserl> so that's why I did it
<andreserl> I'll ask pitti tomorrow :)
<kirkland> andersk: ah, okay, then yeah, that's a good one
<kirkland> andreserl: ^
<andreserl> kirkland, but for example, when it is ondeman it will allow the CPU to automatically change the frequencies. If I set it to powersave, it will stay in 800Mhz always
<kirkland> andreserl: cool
<andreserl> kirkland, ok then :). Anyways, other than that, now that this scripts will be in pm-powersave, Should I still keep the feature to be able to enable/disable scripts, and list which ones are enabled/disabled?
<kirkland> andreserl: nah
<kirkland> andreserl: i don't think it's necessary
<kirkland> andreserl: if it is, it probably belongs in pm-utils
<andreserl> kirkland, ok then :) thanks for the input. Btw.. I presented it yesterday in class and professor was very satisfied with it
<kirkland> andreserl: great!
<andreserl> kirkland, They were asking me so many questions about it, that I ended up explaining the whole project instead of just the part that was supposed to be done for the course project.
<kirkland> andreserl: heh
<kirkland> cool
<hdon> hi guys. i have a rather technical question: i am sshing into a Solaris system at work using gnome-terminal. keys like control+arrowkey don't work. how do i start to troubleshoot this problem? it's been causing me a lot of grief
<dholbach> GOOD MORNING!
<geser> can someone please accept the nomination for maverick in bug 617885 so it doesn't vanish from the sponsoring queue
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 617885 in gparted (Ubuntu) "gparted crash at start: glibmm-ERROR **" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/617885
<cjwatson> geser: done
<barry> ScottK: morning.  i was off on another desktop for a bit.  py3.2 is not building?
<cjwatson> jelmer: did bzr-svn 1.0.3 affect compatibility with previous mappings?
<cjwatson> jelmer: I have a (fairly important and complicated) branch which I believe I last pulled using 1.0.2; 1.0.3 now says "These branches have diverged"
<jelmer> cjwatson: no, the mappings haven't changed since 0.4.x IIRC
<cjwatson> jelmer: if you have a moment, it would be great if you could have a look at lp:~cjwatson/debian-installer/main vs. svn://svn.debian.org/svn/d-i/trunk/installer - I'm not sure how to investigate further
<jelmer> cjwatson: what does "bzr missing" say about the differences?
<jelmer> cjwatson: I'll have a look
<cjwatson> jelmer: it says there are no common revisions
<cjwatson> missing back to r1 both sides
<cjwatson> it also had to completely refetch the svn branch when I did 'bzr pull' earlier
<directhex> builds are broken right now, yes?
<cjwatson> directhex: hmm?
<directhex> oh, perhaps not. was misreading the log
<cjwatson> well, happy to look if you spot something
<Laney> a mere bashism
<pitti> kirkland: overheard @ plumbers: PROC_EVENTS
<pitti> kirkland: that can be used to get notifications about new procsses, forks, etc., for the server powernap thingy we discussed
<pitti> kirkland: so, we wouldn't need to poll any more
<pitti> http://lwn.net/Articles/157150/
<pitti> kirkland: I haven't researched details yet
<cjwatson> is that the same as the netlink proc connector?
<seb128> cjwatson, do you mind if I assign bug #662276 to you? it seems you usually do the vim merges in Ubuntu
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 662276 in vim (Ubuntu) "Merge vim 2:7.3.035+hg~8fdc12103333-1 from Debian unstable" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/662276
<cjwatson> yes, apparently so
<pitti> cjwatson: presumably yes
<seb128> cjwatson, geser did the work, it just needs review and sponsoring
<pitti> cjwatson: I just wasn't aware of this before
<cjwatson> seb128: it's already queued in my browser, at geser's request; go ahead
<pitti> it's not race free, thus not suitable for upstart & friends
<seb128> cjwatson, ok thanks, I'm just tried to clean the sponsoring queue a bit
<cjwatson> I'm trying to get natty builds working as a priority, that's all
<cjwatson> cyphermox: any luck with dhcp?
<pitti> kirkland: /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.36-1/include/linux/cn_proc.h is the API
<cyphermox> cjwatson, I haven't had time to get back to it, but I will in a few minutes... afaik it's good now as soon as I upload NM with the added Breaks and give it a quick test
<cjwatson> music to my ears
<cyphermox> cjwatson, I already have a scratch system upgraded to natty so I can try the ppa
<ebroder> pitti: how is proc connector race-y? Because I think Keybuk was talking about using it to deal with some double-forking issues in upstart
<Keybuk> it sounds like pitti has been listening to lenny
<pitti> ebroder: I don't know the details; Lennart just said that it's not the right thing to use for pid 1; perhaps they don't get queued properly, so that you miss events when you don't get scheduled in for a while
<pitti> but as I said, IANAKD, and only parrotting here
<pitti> but either way, it seems more than appropriate for powernap
<Keybuk> Lenny is wrong, fwiw
<ebroder> the last time I used the proc connector, my monitoring process was getting woken up frequently enough that it caused a performance hit - I had to add some code to only process events after they'd spent some amount of time queueing
<Keybuk> that's because it's a bit of a firehose
<Keybuk> and includes all clone() calls, not just fork() ect.
<Keybuk> so you get notifications as threads come and go as well
<ebroder> right, right. and to be clear, when i talk about a performance hit, i'm talking about a hit on running ./configure on something :)
<Keybuk> so you use the socket filter api over top of it, so you just get the events you're actually interested in
<cjwatson> ebroder: clearly, you should run ./configure on Cygwin instead, since it has none of these advanced APIs!
<ScottK> barry: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python3.2/3.2~a3-2
<pitti> ebroder: the current powernap uses polling (like 20 times a second), which hardly sounds more efficient
<ebroder>  sure. I had no idea there was a socket filtering api. it looks awesome
<RoAkSoAx> pitti: Do you have some free time to review a library split for cluster-glue?
<pitti> RoAkSoAx: not this week, sorry (i'm on a conference)
<RoAkSoAx> pitti: ok no prob :)
<jelmer> cjwatson: Still there?
<jelmer> cjwatson: I've pulled down those two repositories and am looking at them at the moment.
<cjwatson> jelmer: here
<Lonewulf> Hi I am having trouble with 10.04 and a CQ50-110US laptop any help.
<jelmer> cjwatson: it appears as though the first branch was still using the old (pre-bzr-svn 0.4) style mappings.
<cjwatson> ah, that's possible, I created it a long time ago
<jelmer> cjwatson: did you perhaps change machines, or did you move the branch?
<cjwatson> the initial import was in November 2007
<jelmer> cjwatson: newer versions of bzr-svn would still have used the older style mappings if they were configured to do so
<cjwatson> I've switched disks since then, but I did a full-system restore
<cjwatson> http://paste.ubuntu.com/525745/ - contents of ~/.bazaar/subversion.conf
<cjwatson> still seems to be configured there
<cjwatson> I don't think I moved it in the filesystem.  What's the UUID of?
<jelmer> cjwatson: it's the UUID of the remote subversion repository
<cjwatson> I would be surprised if that had changed, but I suppose it's possible - how would I check?
<jelmer> cjwatson: 'svn info svn://svn.debian.org/svn/d-i' should tell you
<jelmer> it doesn't seem to have changed though
<jelmer> so maybe this is a regression in bzr-svn's backward compatibility support
<cjwatson> I'm happy to try the version in natty if you think that would help, or try other debugging
<jelmer> cjwatson: I'm currently checking if I can reproduce it here (trunk) with your configuration
<cjwatson> ta
<Wubbbi> Hi guys ;D
<Lonewulf> My Nvidia 8200M G does not do compositing....For what ever reason.
<nemo>   PID USER      PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S %CPU %MEM    TIME+  COMMAND
<nemo>  1280 root      20   0 1293m 843m 274m S    4 22.0 495:25.71 Xorg
 * nemo sighs
<kirkland> pitti: sweet!
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: see PROC_EVENTS from pitti, http://lwn.net/Articles/157150/
<kirkland> pitti: that's pretty awesome
<nemo> 00b4e000-25362000 rw-p 00000000 00:00 0                                  [heap]
<nemo> hm
<nemo> I guess I could try a gdb dump of that...
<nemo> damn. tried attaching to the process and Xorg went wild.  now uses 100 megs more of memory and 100% of CPU
<nemo> appears to be ignoring gdb's request to suspend
 * nemo sighs and kills it
<nemo> so today's attempt to figure out my massive Xorg leak in maverick, once more driven back
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: ok will take a look at it :)
<nemo> heh. gdm stop failing
<nemo> hard kill time
<nemo> -2 ignored, -4, on to -9
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: so we could change the process monitor to use that instead of examining the process table. and not do it through upstart?
<barry> TheMuso: hi!  say, if you have some time, ScottK recommended that i chat with you about maverick on my powermac g5 dual 2.7.  i'm trying to get a ppc box up - it actually installed fine, but seems to be very unstable when running under maverick
<ScottK> barry: I should have mentioned that there is #ubuntu-powerpc too.
<barry> ScottK: ah, that's probably a better place to ask.  /me joins and re-posts
<cjwatson> first d-i installation images for natty are up, but don't bother testing them, there's a fatal udpkg bug.  fixed upstream and will trickle down tomorrow or so
<cjwatson> (no CD images yet)
 * SpamapS relaxes the trigger finger poised over his wget window...
 * highvoltage is itching for cd images
<SpamapS> highvoltage: maybe try baby powder for that?
<highvoltage> SpamapS: well, I upgraded to Natty on my laptop and that helped a bit
<SpamapS> So.. has anyone seen chromium's method of source distribution and dependency specification.. they're pretty much throwing tarball out the window in favor of svn repository@revision
<cjwatson> a lot of that's just an artifact of how the internal repository management stuff works at google
<SpamapS> http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/releases/9.0.572.0/DEPS?revision=65042&view=markup
<SpamapS> It does not jive well with making packages. :-P
<cjwatson> no reason you couldn't generate tarballs as an archive format from svn repository@revision
<persia> SpamapS, You might want to look at some of fta's scripts to handle that sort of thing.
<SpamapS> Indeed, it seems the only traditional "release" that is provided is these DEPS files ..
<SpamapS> So.. hmm.. create a tarball with the svn revno pointed to...
<SpamapS> persia: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fta/chromium/
<SpamapS> persia: that stuff?
<persia> SpamapS, Well, the stuff that generates that stuff (and the daily builds and the license-analysis tools, etc.)
<persia> Catch fta and he can likely tell you lots more about them.
<SpamapS> fta: when you have a moment, I'd love to discuss your tools for extracting/handling chromium sources for building packages (I will send an email too)
 * SpamapS understands fta is probably past EOW for the day.
<fta> SpamapS, hi. no, i'm still here. what do you want to know?
<SpamapS> fta: so I'm wanting to build mod_pagespeed .. which depends on the depot_tools from chromium...
<SpamapS> fta: seems like there are a whole bunch of hoops to jump through to get all of this packaged in a traditional manner.
<SpamapS> fta: persia suggested that you may have gone through some of this pain already.
<fta> SpamapS, not really, assuming you have the correct DEPS file in your project
<fta> it's kind of easy once you have depot_tools, you need to call gclient
<SpamapS> fta: right, so shouldn't depot tools be a package?
<fta> SpamapS, well, so far, it was just used by chromium
<SpamapS> I don't want to build it just to play with it.. I really want to package it the right way. But its hard to know what the version of depot_tools is.
<SpamapS> I'm happy just working backward, and making the version the revno that is pointed to by my DEPS file ...
<SpamapS> fta: is depot_tools included in a binary package already?
<fta> SpamapS, it's small enough to be carried. there's no release for this i'm afraid
<persia> Could we create a "release" sequence to prevent code duplication?
<fta> sure
<fta> i already did it for gyp
<fta> as i needed it for at least 2 packages
<SpamapS> Version: 0.1~svn840-0ubuntu1
<fta> yep
<SpamapS> so just make a chromium-depot-tools 0.1~svnXXXX
<fta> but it doesn't include depot_tools
<fta> upstream will hate me if i do that
<fta> :)
<SpamapS> wait.. so.. chromium's build process seems to do svn co's ..
<SpamapS> how does that work on a buildd?
<SpamapS> oh wait thats just in gos
<SpamapS> aha, so the magic is in get-original-source .. ok its making sense to me now
<persia> SpamapS, We can always create a tarball from a known revision (and there are good scripts to automate this)
<SpamapS> since src/depot_tools is already in the chromium source.. we can just create a chromium-depot-tools package and install it..
<persia> Wait: what's the bit about upstream hating this?
<SpamapS> I'm not sure they would hate this part
<micahg> SpamapS: you should be careful with that as chromium has a micro-release exception, so the tools will change in a stable release
<SpamapS> micahg: I think thats ok. Things that build-depend on the tools currently all suggest as a first step 'svn co tool_url/trunk'
<persia> micahg, That's fungible, to a certain degree.
<fta> SpamapS, i do something like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/525875/
<SpamapS> fta: why do all of the packages in chromium pre-depend on lzma btw?
<fta> SpamapS, because my debs are compressed with lzma, and if you don't have it, bad things will happen
<micahg> persia: right, but people might be shocked if they can non longer regenerate a source for a package in a stable release due to the depot_tools changing
<SpamapS> fta: ahhh good to know
<hdon> hi guys. i have a rather technical question: i am sshing into a Solaris system at work using gnome-terminal. keys like control+arrowkey don't work. how do i start to troubleshoot this problem? it's been causing me a lot of grief
<hdon> i say "technical" but i guess what i mean is old-school. the new school users with their GUIs for everything would probably have no idea where to begin
<SpamapS> hdon: #ubuntu-server may be a better place to ask. :)
<fta> persia, upstream hated me when i split gyp from chromium, it was not meant to be used outside of chromium, yet it's perfectly usable outside
<hdon> SpamapS, thanks !
<SpamapS> fta: even though its being used all over the place now.. page-speed.. mod_pagespeed.. all using gyp and gclient
<fta> SpamapS, didn't know it. i'm glad to hear it. are those all google stuff?
<SpamapS> fta: yes
<fta> ok, makes sense
<SpamapS> I'd really like to get mod_pagespeed into natty and backport it to lucid so that people don't have to get a binary only .deb from google
<persia> Best place to start is probably a discussion with upstream to make sure there is shared agreement on how the pieces work together.
<SpamapS> Their build instructions are pretty uniform.. svn co whatever the latest depot_tools are .. add them to your PATH .. type gclient..
<persia> Sure, but if multiple projects are sharing the same dependencies, and they want to have feature changes or API shifts in the dependencies, they must have a way to track them, which system, if we used, would probably make our offerings less offensive.
<SpamapS> the gclient script even runs svn up on the dir if it can.
<SpamapS> persia: from what I'm seeing.. they're pretty much in the "the latest crack is the only crack" mode for these tools..
<fta> yes, it's doing a lot of magic.. too much for my taste. that's why i added the --nohooks
<SpamapS> They do lock it down with the other bits though.. just not this particular one.
<fta> otherwise, it runs gyp which needs all the -dev packages installed.. which i don't have/want in the box i use to create my tarballs
<SpamapS> The wrapper for gclient seems to just be concerned with getting the latest crack..
<SpamapS> or .. maybe we should just get out of upstream's way and put this in multiverse. :-P
<persia> SpamapS, multiverse doesn't help with the security aspects, and it's only for non-free software anyway.
<cjwatson> indeed.  multiverse is not a dumping ground for stuff that's just bad.
<SpamapS> Right, the question is.. when upstream wants their stuff updated every time it runs... can we accomodate that?
<micahg> SpamapS: -backports?
<micahg> SpamapS: every time it runs?
<persia> We don't do runtime updates: fails the case where there is no internet access (consider a small LAN on the moon: latency to upstream is too painful)
<SpamapS> http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/tools/depot_tools/gclient?revision=63234&view=markup
<SpamapS> update_depot_tools updates everything from svn
<fta> and?
<SpamapS> persia: agreed. Your point about talking with upstream is I think even more important.
<fta> SpamapS, i just use it in my get-orig-source rule, which happens on my side, before i send the source package to the builder
<SpamapS> fta: right, but thats going to violate debian policy (maybe its ok in ubuntu?) if I do that for mod_pagespeed.
<SpamapS> No embedding of convenience copies of source code IIRC.
<SpamapS> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-source.html section 4.13
<fta> having a separate package for that is not needed. would even make my life even harder as it's one more dep to track and to update along with chromium for lucid up to natty for each release
<SpamapS> hmmm actually.. the wording is different than I remembered it..
<SpamapS> "packages should not make use of these convenience copies unless the included package is explicitly intended to be used in this way"
<fta> was already though enough to get the SRU expection for chromium, its codecs and gyp. I don't want to return there ask for another tiny bit ;)
<fta> tough
<SpamapS> right, I'm thinking more than the chromium package can just spit out its version of depot_tools as a binary package.. and then we just rally around that.
<SpamapS> s/than/that/
<fta> btw, chromium also provides a real tarball, something like 2GB compared to my already huge 180MB stripped tarball
<fta> some distros requested it, so they don't have to fight with svn
<fta> but it's regularly broken
<SpamapS> I like the get orig source method.
<SpamapS> it makes perfect sense.
<fta> i like it too, but most people hate me for this
<persia> SpamapS, The no-convenience-copies bit is mostly a maintainability thing: when things aren't used elsewhere, nobody cares that much.  See libgyp as an example: once there were two users, it needed to get split.
<ivoks> i might be wrong, but i think our LSB is broken
<ivoks> killproc doesn't work
<persia> ivoks, What gives you that impression?
<ivoks> persia: :
<ivoks> killproc KILL /usr/sbin/corosync
<ivoks> /sbin/start-stop-daemon: signal value must be numeric or name of signal (KILL, INT, ...)
<ivoks> without a signal, it returns 0, but the process is still running
<cjwatson> it's documented as killproc pathname [signal]
<cjwatson> /usr/share/doc/lsb-base/README.Debian.gz
<SpamapS> fta: so if I sent you a patch to have chromium output gclient as a binary package, would you be alright with that?
<ivoks> cjwatson: same results
 * fta should make some tests to see if xz is faster than lzma.. lzma takes ages to compress my tarballs :(
<ivoks> it doesn't kill it
<cjwatson> I know no more.  (It seems to be the other way round in this SuSE man page I found under a rock, though ...)
<cjwatson> you could just use pkill
<ivoks> in suse/redhat it works in a way that it sends TERM, waits
<ivoks> then if it doesn't exit, sends KILL
<ivoks> if signal is specified, it sends signal and exits (without waiting for the results)
<elmo> ivoks: is this hardy by any chance?
<ivoks> it's lucid
<elmo> ah, ok
<ivoks> and we get this for free :)
<ivoks> /sbin/start-stop-daemon: warning: this system is not able to track process names
<ivoks> longer than 15 characters, please use --exec instead of --name.
<micahg> fta: you might also want to check lzip
<ivoks> (by using killproc)
<fta> SpamapS, ..i don't particular the idea of a system gclient. it's already proven weak several times, creating incomplete and unusable tarballs, like when google changes the format of the DEPS files, that's why there's no upstream release, forced me to do XX+0 fake versions :(
<fta> micahg, tought about xz because it superseded lzma, and broke my backports in the process
<SpamapS> fta: well crap!
<SpamapS> fta: actually
<SpamapS> fta: then that suggests its more like a generated configure/aclocal.sh script than stable system tool.. and probably doesn't need to be packaged.. yet.
<fta> micahg, (because tar -c --lzma -f creates a xz file on maverick which can't be opened on hardy with the same command which really expects lzma)
<fta> SpamapS, not exactly, configure/auto* is more equiv to gyp. gclient is a source fetcher, capable of running hooks, incl gyp
<fta> and it's a moving target
<persia> !ohmy > SpamapS
<ubottu> SpamapS, please see my private message
 * SpamapS just mispelled the common fish.. he swears!
<ion> âcrapâ warrants !ohmy? :-)
<ion> Everybody craps.
<micahg> fta: ok, I guess you have to wait another 6 months to upgrade to lzip
<persia> ion, Only once in a while.
<micahg> ion: no, craps is a gambling game in Vegas
<fta> eheh
<SpamapS> fta: given that chromium would spit it out, only to support a few of the other bits building.. I think the other bits can adapt to chromium's massiveness...
 * fta attempting one more time to land the launchpad translations into chromium...
<fta> drum rolls..
<fta> SpamapS, another reason i'm reluctant is that i do tons of builds: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fta/ppa-dashboard/chromium-daily.html
<fta> (and i have to fix the new beta too, damn)
<fta> (and the prepare the new stable too)
<fta> grrr, failed. a translator turned a "<!-- -->" into "<!- ->" making a xml.sax parse error :(
<ebroder> There are comments in translatable strings?
<persia> ebroder, Consider rather that there may be translatable comments being exposed to users.
<ebroder> persia: That sounds like they're no longer comments
<persia> ebroder, use/mention.  It's a comment *as part of the UI*, rather than a comment in the code.
<fta> i should reject those and alert the translator, not sure how to do that with launchpad though...
<deyaert> hi
<deyaert> hm
<deyaert> quitet in here
<deyaert> quiet :p
<cjwatson> people don't usually respond unless there's an actual question ...
<deyaert> ok
<deyaert> sorry
<deyaert> i'm quite new in the linux world
<deyaert> but i'm a developer
<deyaert> and i'm interested in ubuntu development
<deyaert> what are the main languages that are used to create the ubuntu os?
<cjwatson> C, Python, POSIX shell, C++, Perl, various others.  my experience is that it helps greatly to be flexible
<cjwatson> bear in mind that the bulk of the actual code is written in other projects, and integrated in Debian and/or Ubuntu
<deyaert> okay
<deyaert> i've read the ubuntu documentation on how to set up the dev environment
<deyaert> but are there many articles on the actual development
<deyaert> debugging
<deyaert> packaging
<deyaert> submitting code
<deyaert> ...
<cjwatson> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu are full of links that should help
<nemo> deyaert: http://www.debian.org/doc/FAQ/ch-pkg_basics.en.html
<deyaert> which languages you'd recommend
<ebroder> deyaert: it's less about what language and more about what you want to do
<nemo> depends what you want to do
<nemo> jinx
<nemo> personally I work on Hedgewars, but that's not ubuntu specific. I'm just hanging out here hoping to glean suggestions on a memory leak in Xorg
<deyaert> bugfixing is quite a general subject
<ScottK> Depends on your interests.  You can be productive with even a bit of shell.
<ebroder> deyaert: it's true, but you're better off starting more focused than "fixing bugs in ubuntu". something like "fixing bugs in empathy" or whatever
<cjwatson> I never recommend any particular language - it's definitely more important to find something that interests you and work from there
<deyaert> it's all new for me
<deyaert> i mainly developed in java and c#
<deyaert> and i come from the windows world :-)
<ebroder> deyaert: well are you using ubuntu now? what bugs you about it?
<cjwatson> start with things that are comfortable for you then
<cjwatson> Ubuntu has code in practically every language under the sun, somewhere
<deyaert> but you hear about a lot of languages
<ebroder> if you know c#, you could look at some of the mono apps like banshee and tomboy
<deyaert> perl python ...
<deyaert> mono I've worked with
<cjwatson> if you want to pick up more languages, go for it, but there's no reason you should feel constrained by what the bulk of the base system is written in when you're starting out
<deyaert> but that's more for application development not?
<cjwatson> Ubuntu contains applications written in Mono
<deyaert> yea?
<deyaert> out of the box?
<deyaert> which ones?
<cjwatson> ebroder just gave examples
<nemo> deyaert: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=51003 (more on packaging)
<cjwatson> tomboy is out of the box, banshee is currently an add-on but is due to be out-of-the-box in natty
<ebroder> and i think gbrainy is the other mono app included by default
<deyaert> okay
<deyaert> if you want to develop for example
<deyaert> a cross platform installation
<cjwatson> Ubuntu is full of stuff that is not distributed out of the box, though
<deyaert> is there a way that the ubuntu team whould pick up the application
<deyaert> and supply it by default?
<cjwatson> maybe, although that's not really a good place to start
<cjwatson> the space available for things to be installed by default is *very very restricted*
<cjwatson> I would not advise starting with that as a goal, because chances are you would be disappointed
<cjwatson> lots of things are distributed in our repositories for later addition, though
<cjwatson> if you want to develop applications for use on Ubuntu, there's a way to get them into extras.ubuntu.com and make them available in software-center; that's one route
<deyaert> ok
<deyaert> but i'm also interested to fix bugs
<deyaert> as a hobby
<cjwatson> that's great, we have several tens of thousands of them
<deyaert> :-)
<deyaert> i've taken a look at some bugs on the site
<deyaert> but on most of them it's not mentioned the language
<deyaert> it's not always that detailed?
<cjwatson> almost never, that's not the way things are laid out
<cjwatson> as folks said above - it's much better to find something that bothers you personally and that seems to be in an environment you're familiar with, fix that, and repeat
<deyaert> that's true
<deyaert> I think I should read some more about it then
<cjwatson> that's certainly how I started, and I suspect that's how a lot of successful developers get started
<cjwatson> find annoying thing that seems vaguely accessible, grab relevant source code, read until you understand where the problem is, hack until you've fixed it, clean up patch for submission, send off, polish as requested
<deyaert> you've fixed a lot of bugs?
<cjwatson> yes
<ebroder> haha. cjwatson has probably fixed more bugs than everyone else in the channel put together :-P
<deyaert> hehe
<deyaert> yeah i'm just curious
<deyaert> for me it's all new :-D
<cjwatson> (I wouldn't say that ...)
<deyaert> and what kind of bugs?
<cjwatson> I mostly work on the installer and the boot loader
<persia> deyaert, Best to start with something that bothers you, grab the source, and dig in.  If nothing makes sense, find something else that bothers you.  If it only makes a little sense, ask for help.
<cjwatson> various other things on the side
<cjwatson> what persia said
<deyaert> ok
<deyaert> i'll start looking for something that bothers me :-)
 * persia learned to read and patch C++ solely from help given attempting to fix bugs in Ubuntu
<deyaert> cjwatson, and what kind of languages are used over there
<cjwatson> deyaert: boot loader: almost entirely C with a bit of assembly (and some scary stuff in the build system).  installer core: C and shell.  graphical installer frontend: Python.
<deyaert> damn
<deyaert> :-)
<real_ate> Hi everyone! I was wondering if someone could help me with something. I've been following a bug in KDE that prevents you from switching users when you have GDM enabled
<real_ate> the bug has been fixed in trunk and i've done a patch that "backports" the bugfix into the version that is in 10.04 LTS
<real_ate> ... my question is... what do I do now? what is the "correct" process for getting a patch into ubuntu LTS when you don't need to file a new bug (cos its fixed already)
<ebroder> !sru | real_ate
<ubottu> real_ate: Stable Release Update information is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<real_ate> ebroder: thank you for the information
<real_ate> Looking at it... it seems like the bug that I'm trying to fix doesn't fit into any of the catagories of a sru
<real_ate> it seems like it is more of a backport or something
<real_ate> I'm not sure
<ebroder> real_ate: so it's probably not a severe regression, but is the patch "obviously safe"?
<real_ate> can someone give me their opinon on the matter? the bug, I don't think that it has an ubuntu launchpad bug, can be seen here: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=186198
<persia> real_ate, For backports, we generally like to use the latest upstream (which may include a fix), but we don't much like it for bugfixes, unless there are also new features.
<ubottu> KDE bug 186198 in general "support GDM 2 21+'s control interface" [Wishlist,Resolved: fixed]
<persia> !backports
<ubottu> If new updated Ubuntu packages are built for an application, then they may go into Ubuntu Backports. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports - See also !packaging
<persia> that ought say useful things about the guidelines for when something is backportable.
<ebroder> oh boy...that's a non-trivial change
<real_ate> ebroder: i would tend to agree
<ebroder> 1 file changed, 184 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-)
<persia> Might be one of those things that's only fixed in the future.  There's a fair number of those (else nobody would ever upgrade)
<real_ate> :P
<persia> ebroder, diffstat and impact are only very loosely related :)
<real_ate> but i supose one could say that this is a major regression
<ebroder> persia: yeah, i know that. i looked at the actual patch, too. it doesn't pass my triviality filter
<real_ate> but it is a very old regression, from when Gnome/GDM updated to use the dbus ConsoleKit for session management
<real_ate> KDE can't: shutdown, restart, hybernate, switch users, suspend
<real_ate> when GDM is active, but it used to be able to
<ebroder> but only if you're using KDE + GDM, right? KDE + KDM works?
<real_ate> yes but Gnome + KDM doesn't
<real_ate> so you will never be able to switch users where those users use different Desktop environments
<ScottK> real_ate: What version of KDM was it fixed in upstream?
<real_ate> ... but you used to be able to
<real_ate> ScottK: it is in trunk so effectivly 4.6
<real_ate> ScottK: but I have made a patch that applies to 4.5... not very many changes to the commited bug fix
<real_ate> and i've tested it
<ScottK> I see.
<ScottK> Why don't you join #kubuntu-devel and discuss it with us there.
<real_ate> i think that problem with the bug fix diff is that the whitespace changed a lot and it wouldn't apply correctly
<real_ate> ScottK: will do
<ebroder> cjwatson: it's deliberate that grub doesn't ship any files in /boot, right? so should i stash the gfxpayload {white,black}lists somewhere else and copy them somewhere in grub-mkconfig?
<kees> uhm, so what is going on here?
<kees> pkgstripfiles: processing control file: debian/apparmor-profiles/DEBIAN/control, package apparmor-profiles, directory debian/apparmor-profiles
<kees> .. removing usr/share/doc/apparmor-profiles/changelog.Debian.gz
<kees> and then I get lintian errors that changelog.Debian.gz is missing
<ebroder> kees: that's part of https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/performance-desktop-n-install-footprint
<ebroder> there should probably be a WI to patch out that lintian check
<kees> I guess it's possible that already happened; I'm running a maverick lintian, but yeah, figured that was what was happening. :)
 * micahg wonders if this is only for seeded packages or for all of them
<ebroder> i believe it's for all packages
<RAOF> It would seem to be unusefully difficult to restrict it to just seeded packages.
<kees> as long as I'm here...
<kees> drop perl dependency from apparmor-utils:
<micahg> RAOF: well, if there is a point to having changelogs in a package, it would make sense to have them in the 15k+ packages not on the CDs
<ebroder> kees: perl, not perl-base
<kees> it's using ${perl:Depends}
<kees> right, but I'm not explicitly depending on perl
<ebroder> kees: i don't know, but i'm guessing it's because you're using a module that's not on perl-base?
<ebroder> the fallback solution we discussed was splitting some more core modules into separate packages instead of "perl" being monolithic
<kees> ebroder: yeah, so I guess they need adjustment, not apparmor-utils
<kees> libterm-readkey-perl, librpc-xml-perl
<RAOF> micahg: I'm not suggesting that changelogs are unuseful, just that they're not useful enough to add extra effort to a large class of packaging.  I also understand that part of the spec is to make the changelogs easily gettable, although you're probably more up on that.
 * micahg remembers something about that as well 
<ebroder> RAOF, micahg: yeah - pitti is adding an apt-changelog script that pulls from changelogs.ubuntu.com
 * ajmitch wonders if there'll be an easy way to grab & store changelogs at install time
<micahg> ebroder: the only risk with that is getting a changelog for a newer version of the package than you have
 * RAOF wonders again why aptitude can't be polished up to be default.
<micahg> RAOF: IIRC, that's not why it's gone, but rather apt-get has reached the maturity where it can be the default
<RAOF> micahg: Have you checked out aptitude's behaviour there?  It grabs the changelog for the version you've got installed.
<ebroder> i haven't looked at pitti's script, but that seems like easy logic to add
 * micahg should try that by forcing a package in -updates back to the release version and see what happens
<hallyn> recent libc update in natty changed some defines from int to uint64_t.  Is there guidance for what to do about usersapce which breaks on those?
<hallyn> do i make it #include stdint.h?
<hallyn> (obviously I could just hack something up, but...)
<persia> micahg, ajmitch: I was told that the job to put all the changelogs for all the packages ever uploaded into librarian started running a couple days ago.  It will take a bit to run, but once it completes, we ought be able to pull changelogs via the LP API.  Adding this to the various package management front-ends shouldn't be too hard (and someone should make sure that's part of the work to be done for changelogs).
<persia> (all the changelogs for all the packages uploaded during the maverick cycle already got stuck in librarian, as well as all the packages being uploaded now, and some of the packages from lucid)
<micahg> persia: so it won't be whatever is current on c.u.c, but rather the actual version, that's good
<ebroder> micahg: you know c.u.c has ~all the versions ever, right?
<ebroder> it's not just one version
<ajmitch> persia: that's good to know
<persia> Ideally.  There's still work to be done.  All the LP coding I've seen done on it was unfunded development.
<micahg> ebroder: orly?
<persia> ebroder, It doesn't (but it has most of them).
<ebroder> it certainly has all the recent ones, no?
<persia> ebroder, Specifically, it has all the versions that were in the a.u.c pool during any of the times the spider script ran.
<ebroder> oh, it's not triggered by the publishing process? that's unfortunate
<persia> No.  Upload a package.  Upload a new revision for the next publisher run.  Time this to be between spider runs.  Notice the package never get caught by the spider.
<persia> It's external to LP.
<micahg> indeed...
<persia> I think the spider runs every 4 hours, but it might be 6.
<ebroder> i'd be skeptical of using the LP API because of speed, though. even if it's just getting a referral to the librarian
<persia> Talk to lifeless.  he's been making LP fast.
<ajmitch> and if you only need to make one API call to get a set of changelogs for packages, it shouldn't be too bad
<persia> I think someone still needs to do the export-to-API bit for that, so if you have an idea for a good interface, you might want to do the first implementation, before a bad interface happens :)
 * persia trusts most API exporters to have sane interfaces, but suspects everyone thinks a little differently
<persia> Heh.  Really, LP coding isn't that scary :)
<ajmitch> sure it isn't :P
<ebroder> well...i'm glad i only mucked with my grub config in a vm
<ari-tczew> Archive Admins: could you remove package dssi from blacklist? (new upstream release synced, blacklist due to different md5sums no longer necessary)
<micahg> ari-tczew: you might want to file a bug and subscribe ubuntu-archvie
<micahg> *archive
<BUGabundo> evening
 * SpamapS only just now noticed that the chromium-browser packages in ubuntu and debian seem to have diverged or were never from the same place
<real_ate> where do you nominate a bug fix for a release in launchpad?
<real_ate> I can't see it
 * real_ate is kinda tired
<persia> There ought be a "Nominate for Release" button.
<persia> (also, most of the bug manipulation masters hang out in #ubuntu-bugs)
<real_ate> persia: do you have an example bug that has that button?
<real_ate> :D
<persia> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-driver/+bug/671178 has it (and happens to be the last bug I opened)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 671178 in alsa-driver (Ubuntu) "[CA0106 - CA0106] ALSA test tone not correctly played back" [Undecided,New]
<real_ate> persia: i don't see the button!
 * real_ate might be blind!!
<yofel> iirc that button is bug-control restricted since recently
<real_ate> yofel: so that means only some people are able to set it?
 * persia continues in -bugs
#ubuntu-devel 2010-11-05
<gmcquillan> Is there any plan to backport changes to beanstalkd from 1.4.6 to 1.4.3 for the lucid repos?
<gmcquillan> 1.4.3 suffers from a fairly significant service vulnerability.
<persia> gmcquillan, There's little chance that anyone who knows the answer to that is about.
<persia> But, I'll happily show you how to find the answer:
<gmcquillan> persia: Ah, great, tahnks.
<gmcquillan> Beanstalkd's changelog doesn't exist.
<persia> 1) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/beanstalkd/+bugs shows all the bugs we're tracking for beanstalkd
<gmcquillan> Cool. I'll look there.
<persia> Since there is nothing listed, there's a good chance that nobody involved in Ubuntu is paying attention to the issues you are talking about.
<gmcquillan> That's a distinct possibility.
<gmcquillan> I'll file a bug.
<gmcquillan> Thank you.
<persia> 2) https://bugs.launchpad.net/lucid-backports/+bugs shows all the stuff currently in review for backporting to lucid (as distinct from cherrypicking bugfixes)
<persia> Since beanstalk isn't there, it looks like if there are plans to backport, they aren't advanced enough to be public yet (which probably means they don't exist, as the first step in backporting is usually to file a bug)
<ebroder> gmcquillan: you said vulnerability right? persia: wouldn't that be more of an issue for MOTU SWAT than backports?
<persia> ebroder, I'm just pointing at resources to find out about plans to do stuff.  Yes, if there is a security issue, and nobody else does anything about it, MOTU SWAT tries to deal.
<gmcquillan> Well, I'll file a bug and go from there.
<persia> gmcquillan, It's worth noting that there's not much history of active Ubuntu interest in beanstalkd, which means that if you want it fixed quickly, you'd do best to be the person fixing it.  Filing a bug (especially a security bug) will get attention, but likely not as much as you can provide directly.
<gmcquillan> I'd love to help, but I've never made a deb before, and a cursory look makes it seem really time consuming.
<gmcquillan> I can definitely give it a shot, though.
<m4t> hey, is there a preferred way to switch versions of gcc? eg. from 4.4 to 4.5? ive got it installed but the symlinks in /usr/bin still point to gcc-4.4. is there something like 'update-alternatives' for this?
<kees> m4t: usually you just set CC=gcc-4.4 or whatever and do your build
<m4t> will that use cpp-4.5, etc. then?
<kees> m4t: yeah, each gcc is versioned to use it's matching tools
<m4t> kees thanks
<kees> m4t: np
<m4t> for background on why i'd even bother... ive tried compiling 2.6.35.8 and 2.6.36, but neither will boot
<m4t> didnt see this issue with 2.6.35.7 compiled on 10.04 (which i'm running now)
<persia> gmcquillan, The hardest part for that sort of thing is just preparing the cherrypick patch.  There's heaps of folk who can lead you through the process of getting a patch applied.
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: anything that I might be missing? https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-server-n-powernap-improvements
<m4t> i have been trying for many hours to figure this out; an identical kernel source tree, with identical .config, and identical kernel-package, compiles+boots from lucid. try the same thing on maverick, it compiles, but hangs during boot
<m4t> i've tried both gcc 4.4 and 4.5
<ebroder> m4t: what kernel version? you can't generally use an older kernel on a newer release
<m4t> 2.6.35.8, 2.6.36, and 2.6.35.7 all hang in the same spot
<ebroder> interesting. well, that exhausts my expertise on kernel hangs
<m4t> right after the first ehci device is setup. if i do things like cmdline=nousb acpi=off pnpbios=off
<m4t> it'll just hang in a different place, like after the ps2 keyboard is initialized
<m4t> i'm guessing its somewhere in the toolchain
<m4t> the 11.04 2.6.36 image boots fine
<m4t> i might debbootstrap 10.04
<m4t> 2.6.36 compiled inside a lucid debootstrap chroot boots fine
<m4t> :/
<m4t> i wonder what part of the toolchain is causing that
<m4t> binutils?
<dholbach> good morning!
<cjwatson> ebroder: gfxpayload lists> yes please, perhaps /usr/lib/grub/i386-pc/ would be OK since I think this is only useful for the BIOS port
<mdz> cjwatson, kees, pitti, any feedback on the brainstorm list?
<cjwatson> I haven't got to it yet, sorry
<speakman> Anyone know if there's a Xorg release with this patch available: http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-devel/2010-October/014150.html
<\sh> micahg: zf 1.11.0reallyfinal rdy to be bped
<Ian_Corne> what are SRUs?
<\sh> Ian_Corne: Stable Release Updates
<jelmer> cjwatson: Hi
<jelmer> cjwatson: I did some more investigation yesterday; it looks like the branching scheme setting in your configuration was changed for some reason
<j1mc> dholbach: how did things turn out at the UDS session about the packaging-guide?
<j1mc> i'm about to head out to work, but would like to check-in soon about any reactions/feedback, etc.
<dholbach> j1mc, great - I just put up the notes in the blueprint whiteboard, but hope to get to finish the spec today
<dholbach> j1mc, as soon as it's on the wiki I'll let you know
<j1mc> dholbach: thanks :)
<dholbach> j1mc, first week back from UDS was somewhat ... hectic ... to say the least
<dholbach> if not today, then Monday morning
<dholbach> but I'll definitely keep you in the loop
<j1mc> dholbach: no worries.  i totally understand.  i'm sure there is always a lot to process coming out of UDS.
<dholbach> yes :)
<dholbach> thanks for all your feedback!
<j1mc> yw :)
<jelmer> cjwatson: setting this in ~/.bazaar/subversion.conf should fix it: branching-scheme = list-QlpoOTFBWSZTWZGF0F4AABPRgAAQABK-bR4AIAAhKgGk0eT0oU0yMTExIMb967Iba8QuvgzkikwSS9mEPH4u5IpwoSEjC6C8
<jelmer> cjwatson: I'm not sure what caused that to change.
<jelmer> cjwatson: Either way, I would recommend an upgrade to the newer mappings at some point. :-)
<cjwatson> jelmer: hm, odd.  ok, thanks, I will do that.  I decided not to upgrade to the newer mappings because d-i is due to move to git in the very near future anyway
<cjwatson> that looks more promising, it's saying "copying revision 0/128"
<cjwatson> yep, perfect.  thanks!
<ScottK> barry: Looks like subversion should be on your python2.7 list if it's not already.
<ScottK> pitti: I'd appreciate it if you could review/accept the SRU for Bug 607117 today.  It's from a first time contributor and so I'd like to make sure they have a good first experience.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 607117 in dnspython (Ubuntu Lucid) "dnspython-1.7* uses /dev/random which might block on lucid" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/607117
<cjwatson> Daviey: do you have a sample test package for bug 633015 lying around?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 633015 in dpkg (Ubuntu Lucid) "debian/source/include-binaries doesn't allow for inclusion of modified binaries" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/633015
<cjwatson> Daviey: I want to get a further change to dpkg into lucid-cat, and it would be helpful to clear this one out first, so I'm willing to do some verification work
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> mdz: sorry, no time for it during plumber's
<pitti> ScottK: lucid? no problem, I'll get to it right away
<Riddell> pitti: how do I exclude files from being passed to dh_scour?
<pitti> Riddell: the standard -X debhelper option works
<Riddell> pitti: how do I get cdbs to pass that on?
<pitti> Riddell: ah, I guess I need to introduce a DH_SCOUR_FLAGS
<pitti> Riddell: the more interesting question is why it's necessary in the first place; is there a class of images which we sholdn't compress?
<Riddell> pitti: no but it's very fussy about valid XML so I now have a shed load of SVG files to work out how to make valid
<Riddell> and some of them I can't work out what the error is
<ScottK> Riddell: More reason to migrate to dh 7....
<ScottK> pitti: Thanks.
<pitti> Riddell: it's not supposed to crash on invalid files, does it?
<Riddell> pitti: yes
<pitti> Riddell: oh, would you please file a bug about it with the details (and perhaps an example svg)?
<pitti> Riddell: it should just not touch the file then
<Riddell> hum.  launchpad doesn't know about the source package https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-scour
<pitti>  Riddell: it's "scour"
<cjwatson> the source package is scour
<ScottK> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/scour
<cjwatson> 2010-11-05 13:14:35 INFO      - <postgresql-9.0_9.0.1.orig.tar.bz2: downloading from http://ftp.debian.org/debian/>
<cjwatson> 2010-11-05 13:14:39 INFO      - <postgresql-9.0_9.0.1-1.debian.tar.gz: downloading from http://ftp.debian.org/debian/>
<cjwatson> 2010-11-05 13:14:39 INFO      - <postgresql-9.0_9.0.1-1.dsc: downloading from http://ftp.debian.org/debian/>
 * Riddell doh
<pitti> cjwatson: (just reviewing d-i lucid upload) -- it'll rebuild against 2.6.32-26, I guess that's okay?
<cjwatson> E: libpq-dev is in main but its source (postgresql-9.0) is not.
<cjwatson> pitti: ^- what should be done with this?
<cjwatson> um, d-i hardcodes the kernel version
<cjwatson> or ABI anyway
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, ok; I'll reject it then?
<cjwatson> hang on
<pitti> cjwatson: depends on whether we want to make 9.0 the default version in natty
<cjwatson> no, please accept it - it will build against -updates
<pitti> there are no packaged server-side extensions yet
<cjwatson> the current version in -updates is broken, so I'd like to get that through first
<pitti> so I'm still a bit hesitant
<cjwatson> unless -26 is going to make it to -updates very soon
<pitti> cjwatson: -26 will still say in -proposed for a fair while; it's a huge update
<pitti> cjwatson: alright, thanks for heads-up
<pitti> cjwatson: psql> alternative is to have an ubuntu specific version of 9.0 without the client-side libs
<cjwatson> ok, then it should still be possible to build d-i against -25, since it looks at all of -security, -updates, and -proposed and picks the newest for the selected ABI
<cjwatson> pitti: psql> ok, I have no strong feelings on it, I was just looking at current failures processing new-source
<pitti> I'd rather avoid having two major versions in main
<cjwatson> agreed
<pitti> cjwatson: can we ignore this one for a bit?
<pitti> they are available in my PPA, for people who need it
<cjwatson> sure, it's got plenty of company
<pitti> I'll talk to the server team about it, but not today
<pitti> heh
<cjwatson> new-source is pretty manual ...
<cjwatson> the Debian FTP team still seems to be doing quite a lot of NEW processing, despite the freeze
<azeem> well, there was an announcement that they wouldn't, and some outcry
<cjwatson> yeah, though I thought it was meant more as "seriously, we have other priorities right now, stop bugging us"
<pitti> cjwatson: do you keep a list of the new-source'd packages to mass-source-NEW them?
<cjwatson> pitti: yes, and I'm just doing that now
<pitti> thanks
<pitti> seb128: do you wait for anything in particular in NEW?
<cjwatson> (actually I forgot to keep the list before feeding to flush-syncs, but I reverse-engineered it)
<cjwatson> gar, people keep manually uploading duplicates of Debian NEW packages to Ubuntu so I get errors
<cjwatson> stoppit
<cjwatson> just request the sync instead, it will be done within a working day, you can't possibly be that impatient at this point in the release cycle :-)
<pitti> (or use PPAs if you are)
<jcastro> mpt: who is in charge of the renaming of package descriptions work? And is there a spec?
<ScottK> cjwatson: I think that (gar, people keep manually uploading duplicates of Debian NEW packages ...) is worth a mail to ubuntu-devel.
<cjwatson> ScottK: I mailed today's two uploaders directly and CCed ubuntu-archive, but I guess so
<ScottK> It's one good answer to "why not just use syncpackage".
<mpt> jcastro, no-one, and there's no spec yet
<mpt> unfortunately
<mpt> jcastro, reporting a bug about it would make me less likely to forget it :-)
<jcastro> mpt: ok so other than we think it's a good idea we don't have anyone committed to fixing it?
<mpt> jcastro, correct
<cjwatson> ScottK: done, thanks
<ScottK> You're welcome.
<seb128> pitti, not yet I think, mterry has gtk3 on its way though
<seb128> not sure if he uploaded yet
<mterry> seb128, nope, fixing some gtk3.0-doc issues I just found
<Riddell> pitti: can I add DEB_DH_SCOUR_ARGS to cdbs?
<Riddell> bug 671407
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 671407 in scour (Ubuntu) "scour files on invalid XML" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/671407
<sladen> roflol
<geser> pitti: Hi, do you know if it's planned to get postgresql-9.0 into natty? And if yes, how to resolve that postgresql-9.0 take over some binary packages like libpq5 from postgresql-8.4
<ScottK> geser: Look in the scrollback.  he's going to discuss it with the server team next week.
<geser> ScottK: ok
<ScottK> (this is why it's not in yet)
<cjwatson> list-merges: http://paste.ubuntu.com/526341/ (output: http://paste.ubuntu.com/526342/)
<cjwatson> useful to anyone else?
<cjwatson> it's hideous screen-scraping right now, should probably work on the server side so that it can be done more programmatically
<cjwatson> (that output is from 'list-merges "Colin Watson"')
<cjwatson> maybe should call it grep-merges, analogous to grep-excuses
<ScottK> cjwatson: Yes.  Would save me digging through several pages on MoM.
<cjwatson> bdrung: ^- do you think the above would be OK for ubuntu-dev-tools?  it's a new dependency on python-beautifulsoup
<cjwatson> might be a good idea to future-proof the scraping first though
<cjwatson> perhaps should also list versions or something
<soren> cjwatson: I'm surprised nothing in there depends on beautifulsoup already.
<ScottK> cjwatson: If you're leary of the depends, just make it a suggests and have the script produce an appropriate error if it's not present.  Devscripts (as I'm sure you know) does this a lot already and I think it's quite reasonable for a tool like this.
<pitti> Riddell: DEB_DH_SCOUR_ARGS> sure, please go ahead; otherwise I'll do that on Tuesday
<cjwatson> ScottK: *nod*
<barry> ScottK: yes, subversion is definitely on my list (i'm working on that one next actually).  fixed in my ppa, it is still broken upstream afaict, but i have a good patch.  stay tuned
<ScottK> barry: Cool.  I uploaded numpy this morning to get it rebuilt with pyhton2.7 support.  It still needs you to figure out what to do about the docs/Main Inclusion.
<barry> ScottK: please remind me: is there a python27 tagged bug on that?
 * ScottK looks
<ScottK> It's not actually python2.7 it's numpy picking up new depends.
<ScottK> barry: Actually it's tagged that way: Bug #664397
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 664397 in python-numpy (Ubuntu Natty) "python-numpy-doc missing" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/664397
<barry> ScottK: cool, that will work
<ScottK> Stolen would be more accurate than missing.  I know where they went, just not sure the best way to move forward ...
 * barry nods
<pitti> Riddell: I don't think it's going to like the typo at the start of debhelper.mk.in
<Riddell> pitti: it didn't, fixed
<pitti> Riddell: I guess/hope it'll just FTBFS; I committed a fix t obzr
<pitti> oh, seems we had a mid-air collision then
<pitti> Riddell: ah, thanks
<Riddell> this scour thing adds a lot of build times
<Riddell> I can't even remember what I'm building it's taken that long
<Riddell> pitti: hmm, the way scour is used by cdbs it gets run once for every binary package on the same files
<Riddell> no wonder it takes so long
<cjwatson> apw: has omap been intentionally dropped from the main linux source package on armel?
<pitti> Riddell: oh, I see; it probably ought to be called with -p${cdbs_curpkg} or something like that then?
<apw> cjwatson, yes, we are expecting that to come out of linaro in short order
<apw> (is that causing you issues?)
<Riddell> pitti: yes
<Riddell> pitti: let me check if that helps
<pitti> Riddell: (I didn't test this at all -- should look at how other dh_* is called)
<pitti> Riddell: I have a fixed dh_scour, testing ATM
<ScottK> pitti: It would also be nice to have (not this week) an equivalent solution for DH7 packages.
<pitti> ScottK: solution for what?
<cjwatson> apw: just means I need to point debian-installer at something else
<cjwatson> ScottK: i.e. a sequence file?
<ScottK> cjwatson: Yes.
<pitti> ScottK: you can do dh --with-scour already
<cjwatson> --with=scour, right?
<pitti> ScottK: I wrote /usr/share/perl5/Debian/Debhelper/Sequence/scour.pm
<ScottK> pitti: OK.
<pitti> cjwatson: sorry, yes
<pitti> tpyos are mien
<ScottK> pitti: You're ahead of me once again.  Thanks.
<bdrung> cjwatson: what does this tool do?
<bdrung> for what is it used?
<ScottK> Riddell: We should decide if we want --with-kde to imply --with-scour or not.
<Riddell> ScottK: I think we do but only once scour doesn't fail on invalid SVG files
<Riddell> else that'll be a lot of files needing fixed
<ScottK> Yep.
<pitti> give me 10 more mins to ensure that this works, then I'll throw it nattywards
<pitti> I confirmed that it works on blue.svg now
<pitti> IOW, leaves it untouched
<pitti> ok, works; uploaded
<pitti> Riddell: ^
<pitti> sorry for the hassle
<pitti> fixing those SVGs might still make sense at some point; crunching an 800 kB SVG is going to save a lot of space
 * pitti &
<cjwatson> bdrung: you run 'grep-merges "Benjamin Drung"' and it tells you all the merges you have on merges.ubuntu.com
<cjwatson> analogous to grep-excuses for Debian testing propagation
<bdrung> cjwatson: that's a tool that fits into ubuntu-dev-tools
<cjwatson> sounds good.  I'll get the server side improved first
<bdrung> cjwatson: add don't forget to add a manpage
<cjwatson> of course
<cjwatson> apt-cache show man-db :-)
<seb128> does anybody know if there is a legal reason the copyright file needs to have a list of copyright holders?
<seb128> or another non legal reason out of having the debian policy saying so?
<seb128> or said different, "is there any reason we couldn't stop doing that"?
<DktrKranz> seb128: usually, the license text itself (i.e. you are allowed to do stuff if you put the name of the holders)
<DktrKranz> this is especially stated in BSD and Expat
<seb128> is there anything which stop us to autogenerate them from some grepping?
<seb128> that would be accurate compared to the current ones, 99% of packages don't maintain the list of copyright owner
<DktrKranz> as long as it's accurate, I don't think so
<seb128> they got right on first upload and then nobody cares updating them
<seb128> well the point is that what we have now is nowhere to be accurate
<DktrKranz> IIRC, cdbs has some kind of check for copyright holders
<DktrKranz> it will prevent packages from building, but I'm not sure how it works
<seb128> which nobody seems to use, or at least I've never seen it used
<DktrKranz> yeah, I've always seen it in cdbs maintainer packages only :)
<DktrKranz> other than this, we do some check when some packages need new overrides, but that happens for a very low percentage of packages
<cjwatson> I think "99%" is probably wrong.  I'd say considerably more than 1% of packages only ever have one copyright holder. :-)
<DktrKranz> maybe it's more than 1%, but indeed it's not so common
<seb128> cjwatson, right, make that 60% if you want
<DktrKranz> unless you call yourself python*, or kernel*
<seb128> still it seems we spend time getting the first list but don't update them
<seb128> so either we need it there and accurate and we have an issue
<seb128> or we don't and we waste time
<mr_pouit> oh, I think it's very often updated for new major releases
<DktrKranz> first time is mandatory, or you get reject. subsequent uploads, it depends who uploads what
<cjwatson> ISTR this was discussed at painful length on ... was it debian-policy? ... a few months back
<cjwatson> might be worth finding and reviewing that
<DktrKranz> I'm pretty sure nobody would sue me if I forgot to mention a couple of holders, but that can't be the rule
<seb128> well, do you think the current manual outdated list is buggy over what an automatic grep would be?
<DktrKranz> most of the times a manual grep/licensecheck is fine, but that won't work for perl packages, I guess (they have license info at the bottom of each file)
<DktrKranz> and, sometimes, is not so accurate in case there are more holders, on multiple lines
<DktrKranz> cjwatson: <4A2F779F.80104@leat.rub.de>
<DktrKranz> probably that one?
<cjwatson> DktrKranz: I don't think it was that thread as such, it was something this year I believe
<DktrKranz> mh, I remember something from that lenghty DEP-5
<DktrKranz> I'll have a better look
<cjwatson> it wasn't a DEP-5 thread, I don't think
<bdrung> how do i get an item removed from the list http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/sync-blacklist.txt ?
<cjwatson> file bug, subscribe ~ubuntu-archive
<cjwatson> slangasek: would you mind if I merged ttf-indic-fonts?  it would save having to back out a change in debian-installer
<slangasek> cjwatson: go right ahead
<cjwatson> thanks
<geser> are removals from Debian imported regularly?
<cjwatson> geser: I think the best answer is "irregularly"
<cjwatson> I haven't personally done any this cycle yet, though other admins may have
<geser> ok, do they also include packages with Ubuntu delta or do those need seperate removal requests?
<cjwatson> it's an option in the script
<geser> as I'm never sure when I should file a removal bug or just simply wait for the next removal import
<cjwatson> if you care about particular packages, please feel free to file bugs
<geser> thanks
<segv`> Quick question, trying to figure out the best way to handle this, We're setting up about 50 LTS 10.04 servers and want to create a local repo, but in doing so, we're only going to ever need the 64bit versions of binaries, any of you have a simple solution or recommendation on how to handle this?
<segv`> figured the dev guys would know a thing or to, I can redirect that to -server if need be.
<cjwatson> you could use debmirror with the --arch=amd64 option
<smoser> kees, or cjwatson , if either of you are moderator on technical board mailing list could you let my quarantined messages through ?
<segv`> cjwatson: ah
<didrocks> barry: hey, any idea what to do when we get an error in executing dh_python2: E: dh_python2:146: you most probably have to build extension for python2.7. (I've tried to tweak debian/pyversions or XS-Python-Version without any luck and don't have a lot of insight for dh_python)
<kees> smoser: done
<smoser> thanks.
<kees> np :)
<tumbleweed> didrocks: which package
<didrocks> tumbleweed: compiz-config-python
<didrocks> tumbleweed: was working well (0.9) on maverick, but since I try to build it on nattyâ¦
<tumbleweed> didrocks: assuming you mean compizconfig-python, it builds fine for me (and uses dh_pysupport, not dh_python2)
<didrocks> tumbleweed: yeah, you're not building 0.9 I guess
<tumbleweed> presumably :)
<didrocks> tumbleweed: the upstream build system totally changed. So I moved to dh_python2 and now, I have this build issue (which was working fine in maverick, just appeared in natty)
<didrocks> so something changed as we have python2.7 in natty as well, but I don't know enough about dh_python2 and my search on the web was unsuccessful to know what's going on with this error
<tumbleweed> yeah I see they are now using distutils
<tumbleweed> my guess from th eerror is that you aren't building for python2.7, as it says
<tumbleweed> can I see your rules?
<didrocks> apart that I can skip it with --no-guessing-versions
<didrocks> tumbleweed: sure, pushed at lp:~compiz/compizconfig-python/ubuntu
<ScottK> didrocks: Are all the build-depends rebuilt for python2.7 already?
<tumbleweed> didrocks: I'd drop the pyversions, you have a XS-PV as well. XB-PV can also be dropped.
<ScottK> I keep running into that problem.
<tumbleweed> didrocks: th eproblem is your override_dh_auto_install, you only install 2.6
<tumbleweed> why do you need that override?
<ScottK> And we actually prefer X-P-V to XS-P-V now.
<tumbleweed> err it overrides build too
<didrocks> tumbleweed: you're right, totally forgot about it :)
<didrocks> tumbleweed: well, it's needed because dh_auto_install doesn't do the right thing
<didrocks> tumbleweed: I guess it's confused as the soft as some c code as well
<tumbleweed> didrocks: that's suprising, did they screw up thier setup.py that badly?
<didrocks> tumbleweed: well, possibly, but apart from a complicate setup.py, it seems a "normal one"
<didrocks> hence the fact I have to tweak it
<didrocks> tumbleweed: about pyversion vs XS-PV and XB-PV, is there a doc for dh_python2?
<didrocks> I stopped with pycentral :)
<tumbleweed> it has a manpage
<tumbleweed> (that's about it)
<ScottK> didrocks: The current python-policy describes this too.
<didrocks> yeah, that doesn't explain if we need to drop pyversion and XB-PV :)
<tumbleweed> re XS-PV, XB-PV you'd have to look at debian-python list archives
<didrocks> ScottK: oh really? I'll take a look :)
<ScottK> tumbleweed: Also in Policy
<didrocks> ok, works better once built for python 2.7 :)
<tumbleweed> ScottK: the python-policy on www.d.o still says you should have XB-PV etc
<didrocks> tumbleweed: ScottK: thanks!
<didrocks> tumbleweed: I'll check with upstream and look at the code to see why dh_python2 is confused about the setup.py
<ScottK> tumbleweed: Look in the latest package. Not sure how the one on www.d.o gets updated.
<tumbleweed> ScottK: yeah now that you mentioned it, I seem to remember it being updated in the package
<ScottK> didrocks: We need cases where dh_python2 has trouble to extend it, so please don't work around it.
<ScottK> didrocks: barry will be glad to fix it for you.
<didrocks> ScottK: yeah, I'll add to my "next week" TODO list
<didrocks> just trying to get it updated for now, still not uploaded
<tumbleweed> ScottK: cython hasn't been built for 2.7 yet, and debhelper was using th emakefile rather than setu.py. Memoed didrocks
<ScottK> Thanks.
<cHarNe2> hi, i have a kernel-bug to report, where can i do that? (my NIC wont work with 2.6.32-24-generic)
<cHarNe2> second time i have this problem and last time it was a bug
<jussi> !bug
<ubottu> If you find a bug in Ubuntu or any of its derivatives, please file a bug report at: http://bugs.ubuntu.com/ IRC is not a good medium to report bugs and this channel is for development coordination.
<cHarNe2> !bug
<jussi> cHarNe2: me saying !bug, calls ubottu and she tells you what she just did
<cHarNe2> jussi: yeah i realized that 2 secs after i typed it :) ty
<jussi> yw
<chilicuil> j ubuntu-es
<jdstrand> ScottK: hey, so I see boost-mpi-source1.42 patiently waiting to be deNEWd. I read the 'Boost library proposal for Natty' and it seems that it is ok to deNEW (pending review), but I wanted to ask you to be sure
<ScottK> jdstrand: Yes.  Please.  I didn't ping anyone since there's no rush, but that's one of the blocker for boost1.40 removal.
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> I am looking at it now
<ScottK> Great.
<slangasek> is anyone here able to do SRU verification of bug #658728?  I don't have a Kubuntu install to hand
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 658728 in bluedevil (Ubuntu Natty) "bluedevil translations not being used" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/658728
<RoAkSoAx> slangasek: do you have a little bit of time to review a couple package's library splits? :)
<slangasek> RoAkSoAx: hi there - maybe, what's up?
<RoAkSoAx> slangasek: Remember the split for pacemaker we were talking about few weeks ago?? It has now been split in Debian but I did some improvements: https://launchpad.net/~andreserl/+archive/other/+files/pacemaker_1.0.9.1%2Bhg15626-2ubuntu1.dsc.
<slangasek> ok
<RoAkSoAx> the same with cluster-glue since our goal is to get the MIR's accepted :) https://launchpad.net/~andreserl/+archive/other/+files/cluster-glue_1.0.6%2Bhg2461-1ubuntu1.dsc
<RoAkSoAx> and I'd like a rewview before uploading to universe
<RoAkSoAx> slangasek: and thank you :)
<ScottK> slangasek: I got a recruit for the bluedevil SRU.
<slangasek> ScottK: yay, thanks
<slangasek> ScottK: zyga tested and says the translations aren't fixed, but we may have overlooked something
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> slangasek: Confirmed not fixed (bluedevil).  shadeslayer is going to mark it in the bug.
<shadeslayer> slangasek: if your free, can you move libutempter-dev to main in lucid? its in main in maverick
<slangasek> shadeslayer: er, why would I do that?
<slangasek> shadeslayer: we reconcile the archive sections of packages before we release, and don't change them afterwards
<shadeslayer> oh.. so it cant be done?
<slangasek> well, tell me what problem you're trying to solve :)
<shadeslayer> slangasek: im trying to build kde4libs in lucid pbuilder and it complains that it wants libutempter-dev for building, so i can either drop that dep or get it moved to main, id like the latter :D
<slangasek> shadeslayer: the kde4libs in lucid didn't build-depend on libutempter-dev
<shadeslayer> slangasek: im building kde4libs 4.5.3 :)
<shadeslayer> a new release
<slangasek> shadeslayer: but that wouldn't be accepted into lucid, it wouldn't fit the SRU policy
<slangasek> shadeslayer: so that's not a valid reason for us to move packages between archive sections in a released version of Ubuntu
<shadeslayer> ah ok, just wanted to know if its possible :)
<slangasek> not possible - sorry :)
<slangasek> shadeslayer: btw, do you happen to have a pointer to the kdevelop git tree that needs to be used for SRU verification of bug #656195?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 656195 in Release Notes for Ubuntu "kdevelop crashes" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/656195
<shadeslayer> looking
<shadeslayer> slangasek: http://gitorious.org/kdevelop << thats their master
<slangasek> shadeslayer: thanks!
<slangasek> pitti: please see my follow-up comment on bug #649917; can we dig this SRU back out of the trash for acceptance? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 649917 in plymouth (Ubuntu Maverick) "GLIb-WARNING **: getpwid_r(): failed due to unknown user id" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/649917
<james_w> lp:pkgme now has some code and is growing towards a PoC. https://launchpad.net/~pkgme-devs is available for those that want to join the mailing list to discuss it.
<ebroder> cjwatson: ping on the grub2 fb stuff when you have a minute
#ubuntu-devel 2010-11-06
<nemo> bug #661494
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 661494 in x11-apps (Ubuntu) "Request to limit xinit writes to .xsession-errors to some reasonable value, such as 10 megs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/661494
<nemo> I was wondering if I could get a response on practicality of my request
<kaushal> hi
<kaushal> can some one please guide me about https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2010-November/004806.html ?
<ebroder> kaushal: this isn't a support channel. you can get help with server issues in #ubuntu-server
<kaushal> ebroder: ok
<tjaalton> gobby claims "unknown host" when trying to contact gobby.u.c.. haven't been able to connect in a while. what's up with it?
<ebroder> tjaalton: you're using gobby-0.5 with its default port?
<tjaalton> ebroder: whatever is in lucid/maverick
<ebroder> you need to specifically grab the gobby-0.5 package, and run gobby-0.5 (not just gobby)
<tjaalton> great
<ebroder> it's been in ubuntu for a while; just hasn't been the default
<tjaalton> oh lucid does have that
<YokoZar> who took over the papercuts project?
<YokoZar> (or is it languishing)
<ebroder> i think vish is leading the charge
<ebroder> backed up by some combination of jcastro, ivanka, and sense
<maco> cjwatson: happy birthday!
<cjwatson> maco: thanks :-)
 * geser adds the DMB meeting on Monday 19:00 UTC to bdrung's schedule
<bdrung> geser: it could be too tight timewise. i'll be there, but i can't promise to be on schedule.
<bilalakhtar> Sorry for asking this twice, but:
<bilalakhtar> Is bug 668764 suitable to be SRUed?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 668764 in bzr-builddeb (Ubuntu Natty) "Add Natty to the list of known distros" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/668764
<bilalakhtar> I have a working patch, and there are very few chances of regressions
<bilalakhtar> Moreover, the patch is very small
<Riddell> bilalakhtar: you should probably subscribe ubuntu-sru and ask
<bilalakhtar> Riddell: thanks, doing that. I am asking this on the channel since I can upload to the package, and we should not count on 'a way back' since it has to cross the process once it is in -proposed
<bilalakhtar> Even if it doesn't, it SHOULD pass the process
 * bilalakhtar stays on the safe side and assigns ubuntu-sru
<bdrung> bilalakhtar: yes, that's worth a SRU
<bilalakhtar> hmm, okay then, I will upload it to -proposed
<bdrung> bilalakhtar: IIRC, the current process is to upload it to -proposed and get it then reviewed
<bilalakhtar> bdrung: yes, that is what I know, but I wanted to be a bit more careful :D
<bdrung> small bug fixed are worth a sru in most cases
<bilalakhtar> bdrung: uploaded to proposed, now waiting for it to be accepted into -proposed and then verified and then checked thoroughly and then moved :D
<ScottK> Riddell: Would you please promote libweather-ion5 to main.  It got dropped into Universe by mistake and it's preventing the rest of KDE from building.
<biohazard> hi
<biohazard> anyone there
<biohazard> i need some help
<biohazard> could anyone help me
<biohazard> could anyone helps me ?
<ansgar> biohazard: Try #ubuntu for user support.
<pitti> slangasek: I can unreject it, I'll have a look
<pitti> slangasek: done
#ubuntu-devel 2010-11-07
<m4t> i confirmed a bug involving CONFIG_MPENTIUMM=y and maverick's toolchain producing unbootable (hanging) kernels
<m4t> happens with local builds both on real hw, and in qemu
<m4t> and i tested the build on a remote fresh 10.10 system, and it hangs in the same place
<m4t> affects at least 2.6.35.7, 2.6.35.8, and 2.6.36
<m4t> does this belong under gcc bugs?
<m4t> also, gcc testsuite produces some fun results :)
<yofel> pitti: question about apport: when using 'ubuntu-bug --package XX' is file-bug mode supposed to be implied or do those options only work now if you add -f ? --help says that file-bug mode is implied if a single argument is given but for some people '--package=bash' is a single argument too but apport silently fails currently if you don't add -f/--file-bug
<yofel> (bug 665953)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 665953 in apport (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-bug --pid and --package options do not work" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/665953
<jazzdog> not sure if this is relevant here, but latest flashplayer crashes on hardy when going fullscreen on any video site. flash tries to use gtk_widget_get_window which is available since gtk-2.14 and hardy has gtk-2.12. I have reported this bug on bugs.adobe.com
<jazzdog> i guess reporting this on launchpad is not neccessary but please tell me if otherwise
<ScottK> jazzdog: I think it has to be fixed at Adobe, so I think an LP bug isn't necessary.
<jazzdog> funny thing on bugs.adobe.com i can not see my own reported issue :)
<jazzdog> they say I reported a bug related to a non-public product or component
<micahg> jazzdog: well, flash 9 is still in multiverse
<ebroder> It seems like having an LP bug would still make sense, especially if multiple people start noticing this
<ebroder> For tracking purposes more than "we need to fix this" purposes
<jazzdog> it should affect everyone using hardy heron and watching videos on any video site in fullscreen
<micahg> and a link to the upstream Adobe bug in the description would help
<micahg> jazzdog: is this Flash 10 and Flash 9 or just Flash 10?
<jazzdog> latest flash from partner repo and from adobe.com download site
<jazzdog> so flash10
<micahg> ok, so you can file against adobe-flashplugin
<jazzdog> but my reported bug is not public on adobe.com even I can not see it
<ebroder> That's fine. What matters is that we know the bug exists
<micahg> jazzdog: do you know about the public bug tracker for flash? https://bugs.adobe.com/jira/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?
<jazzdog> that's where I've submitted the bugreport, or at least the domain is the same
<mdeslaur> jazzdog: please file a bug in launchpad against adobe-flashplugin
<jazzdog> ok
<jazzdog> You need to specify a package or a PID. See --help for more information.
<jazzdog> after running ubuntu-bug adobe-flashplugin
<ScottK> It's in the Partner repository, not Ubuntu, so I'm not sure ubuntu-bug is intended to work for that case.
<jazzdog> it needs -p adobe-flashplugin
<jazzdog> -p was not on the wiki page
<micahg> jazzdog: ah, that's no longer necessary in LUcid
<jazzdog> what is not in lucid? and btw I'm on hardy :)
<micahg> jazzdog: right
<jazzdog> i see
<jazzdog> okay I've reported it on LP
<jazzdog> oops I've just realized this was already reported on karmic
<jazzdog> which is strange because karmic has gtk-2.18
<jazzdog> only adobe can solve this :)
<micahg> or lightspark or gnash
<psusi> cjwatson, I just proposed a merge for parted and dmraid to finally drop the ubuntu patches removing the 'p' from the device name.  last we talked you wanted to do that during maverick but I guess didn't have time... hopefully you can just bzr merge and commit easily
<ebroder> psusi: this is for things like /dev/mapper/loop0p1?
<psusi> ebroder, no.. for /dev/mapper/nvidia_13412352435
<ebroder> ah, ok
<psusi> ebroder, upstream went to inserting a 'p' between the base raid device name and the partition number a while ago but ubuntu has been carrying patches to reverse that for a while
<ebroder> err, right. dmraid, not dmsetup. neverm ind
<psusi> I believe it causes breakage when the base name happens to end in a digit
<psusi> things like grub can't figure out where the base name ends and the partition number begins
<psusi> pitti, you were trying to work out automounting of esata disks right?  I've been looking into that a bit lately and it seems AHCI has the capability to tell the os a port is external, but the driver doesn't bother using that bit
<psusi> why does a process opening a partition device for write access generate a udev change event, and why is that a time we want to ask lvm to activate all volumes?
<ebroder> I don't exactly understand the first half, but the second half is easy - all of Ubuntu's device detection is event driven. So new LVM device -> bring it online
<ebroder> you need that sort of behavior for things like "LUKS on LVM on RAID" to come up in any sane way
<psusi> right, so you want to activate when a new disk is added, but why when a partition is "changed" which apparently means anything wrote to it
<ebroder> No, "changed" means the device changed. The partition was resized, or something like that
<ebroder> Like I said, I don't know opening the device for writing generates a change event
<psusi> nope, a change event is emitted simply from opening the dev node in read/write mode
<ebroder> A change event is *also* emitted if the partition is resized, which *is* a case where you need to bring VGs online
<psusi> on the partition device that is
<psusi> not the raw disk, which you would think would get a change event when you change the partition table
<psusi> I would think that if the change added a partition, you would get an add event on the partition and want to activate... but right now it activates on any add or change event for a disk or partition... which seems a bit more than needed
<psusi> so keybuck wrote a patch to lvm to make sure it does not open devices for write access unless absolutely needed or it caused a feedback loop where the open causes a change, which runs lvm, which opens, etc
<ebroder> The changelog does describe it as a "sledgehammer"
<ebroder> I can't quite come up with the exact scenario where you'd need it, although I'm sure cjwatson or Keybuk could explain it better
<psusi> but I don't understand why the problem happens in the first place since I can't see any sense to activating every time a partition is changed, if changed means somebody wrote to it
<psusi> hrm...
<ebroder> Running pvcreate /dev/sda2 -> activating VGs is the closest I can get
<ebroder> I guess vgcreate will write to the PVs, and activating the VG after that happens makes sense
<ebroder> But the behavior definitely makes sense to me, even if I can't explain it exactly
<psusi> there's nothing in it to activate yet when you pvcreate though..
<ebroder> vgcreate, though, not pvcreate
<psusi> same thing... when you first create a volume group it is empty..
<ebroder> Like I said, I don't know the exact scenario, but it's very easy for me to imagine that there are scenarios *like* those where the behavior is desirable
<psusi> though I suppose if lvcreate does not automatically activate the new volume then you would do that with this udev rule...
<ebroder> This rule only triggers on PVs, not LVs, no?
<psusi> the rule triggers whenever any block device is added or changed
<psusi> and it has been identified by blkid as being a pv actually...
<ebroder> Right. "ENV{DM_UDEV_RULES}=="", GOTO="persistent_storage_dm_end""
<psusi> yea...
<ebroder> In general, there's more than enough subtlety in LVM that I try not to assume behavior is unnecessary just because I can't come up with a scenario that needs it
<ebroder> (especially if I can imagine scenarios that *almost* need it)
<psusi> that's why I asked ;)
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: i was thinking for powernap. Roll back to original (before adams changes) for the main trunk and create a series with his changes. So that I can first work with the main trunk by commiting stuff, because I;ve not yet dec
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: haven't yet decided what to do. So I was planingn first to do everything related to pm-powersave and then work on the Monitors. My approach right now is to use the original branch... but I might decide for adam;s approach
<CarlFK> natty http://dpaste.de/mGIK/  *** buffer overflow detected ***: tftp terminated======= Backtrace: =========/lib/libc.so.6(__fortify_fail+0x37)[0x7f29b446b527]...
<CarlFK> what's the cli to post that to lp?
<ebroder> CarlFK: Do you get anything if you run apport-cli?
<CarlFK> juser@dhcp232:~$ apport-cli
<CarlFK> No pending crash reports. Try --help for more information.
<CarlFK> ran the tftp command manually (instead of the python Popen([tftp shaz... - crash,  but still "No pending crash reports.
<kees> ebroder: hehe "You and @ebroder both follow... Marigold Farmer"  *high-five*
<kees> CarlFK: you may need to enable apport for it to catch that. edit /etc/default/apport and then sudo /etc/init.d/apport start
<micahg> or sudo service apport start force_start=1
<micahg> on Lucid and later
<ebroder> kees: will apport catch glibc throws like that?
<CarlFK> http://dpaste.de/wssw/ (gdb) bt full#0  0x00007ffff7a8cba5 in raise (sig=<value optimized out>)...
<CarlFK> enabled=0   Souldn't that be =1 for betas?
<kees> ebroder: yes
<kees> ebroder: I wrote the code to do it. :)
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: /win 3
<RoAkSoAx> -_- sry bout that :)
<CarlFK>   1: Launch a browser now... grumble.  I am in an ssh shell
<kees> lynx! ;)
<CarlFK> ok, I am playing along.. "copy this URL into a browser on another computer."
<ajmitch> times like that, you wish that it'd file the bug by email
<kees> CarlFK: which tftp is that, btw?
<CarlFK> kees: whatever is installed by apt-get install tftp
<kees> netkit-tftp, ok
<CarlFK> "The file "CoreDump.gz" was attached to the bug report."  um... I am on a different box?
<CarlFK> oh wow.
<CarlFK> did it push stuff up to some secrit place?
<kees> CarlFK: in the meantime, you might try tftp-hpa
<kees> CarlFK: yeah, it send it directly to LP, and then the bug report creation uses the hash to look it up
<CarlFK> kees: brilliant!
<CarlFK> what is the package that contains libc-dev or -dbg or whatever debug symboles?
<ebroder> kees: out of curiosity, how do glibc bug reports get captured? patch to glibc?
<kees> CarlFK: what's the bug#, btw? I can add some comments
<CarlFK> #672325
<CarlFK> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netkit-tftp/+bug/672325
<ubottu> 'Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: HTTP Error 401: Unauthorized\nResponse headers:\n---\ncontent-length: 21\ncontent-type: text/plain\ndate: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 22:32:11 GMT\nserver: zope.server.http (HTTP)\nstatus: 401\nvary: Accept-Encoding\nvia: 1.1 wildcard.edge.launchpad.net\nx-powered-by: Zope (www.zope.org), Python (www.python.org)\n---\nResponse body:\n---\nBug 672325 is private\n---\n (https://launchpad.net/bugs/672325)'
<kees> CarlFK: look for -dbg and -dbgsym https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash  but -dbgsym needs a separate repo
<kees> ebroder: yes. I wrote code for glibc to retain the abort message. drepper took it without crediting me. \o/
<CarlFK> opps, marked it private..  fixing...
<ebroder> Haha, awesome
<CarlFK> at least I would like to un-private it.. how do I do that?
<kees> CarlFK: upper right corner
<CarlFK>                        This bug report should be private                      fixed
<CarlFK> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netkit-tftp/+bug/672325
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 672325 in netkit-tftp (Ubuntu) "tftp assert failure: *** buffer overflow detected ***: tftp terminated" [Undecided,New]
<CarlFK> juser@dhcp232:~$ aptitude search '~i' | fgrep -e '-dbg'
<CarlFK> i   libc6-dbg                       - Embedded GNU C Library: detached debugging
<CarlFK> er, nm - thougth that was installed
<CarlFK> "libc6-dbg is already the newest version."  so it is installed.  anything else I can do?
<kees> installed tftp-dbgsym for more readability (check that wiki page I linked to)
<kees>    0x4013bc <makerequest+44>:	callq  0x401118 <__strcpy_chk@plt>
<kees>         cp = tp->th_stuff;
<kees>         strcpy(cp, name);
 * ebroder sighs
<kees> gah, this is a bug in gcc again!
<kees> I will take a closer look on monday
<lifeless> gcc has bugs?
 * lifeless is shocked
<mwhudson> it's almost as if it was software
<CarlFK> Failed to fetch http://ddebs.ubuntu.com/dists/natty/Release  Unable to find expected entry  main/source/Sources in Meta-index file (malformed Release file?
<mdeslaur> Is maverick-proposed still frozen?
<mdeslaur> slangasek, lool: can I upload a fix for LP: #631980 to maverick-proposed?
<slangasek> mdeslaur: go ahead; the freeze doesn't block you from uploading anyway, it just means the package won't necessarily be accepted right away
<geser> mdeslaur: the mail to u-d-a mentions Nov 8th as date of -proposed thaw
<mdeslaur> slangasek: ok, thanks
<slangasek> the freeze isn't quite cleared yet because we've had some difficult-to-verify SRUs in the queue that I need to bypass; but things should be opened up by tomorrow
<CarlFK> no source packages?  http://ddebs.ubuntu.com/dists/natty/main/
<slangasek> CarlFK: ddebs are supplementary binary packages generated at build time; look to the main archive for source packages
<CarlFK> slangasek: k - just wanted to make sure it was expected
<CarlFK> kees: http://dpaste.de/IarY/
<CarlFK> should I add that to the bug report as an attachment?
<CarlFK> i guess it isn't that big... I was thinking it was too big for pasting into a comment
#ubuntu-devel 2011-10-31
<Laibsch> tumbleweed: bug 807545 is another example of a bug that's been ignored for months now.  Maybe you want to look into the situation where the dev-release is fixed/invalid, but some SRU needs to happen?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 807545 in piuparts (Ubuntu) "piuparts uses debian instead of ubuntu keyring" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/807545
<Laibsch> s/example of a bug/example of a patch/
<MrBIOS> hey folks
<MrBIOS> is there a UDS-specific channel, or is this the closest thing to it?
<ajmitch> probably #ubuntu-uds, if past events are anything to go by
<siretart> cjwatson: yeah, this time, I took some extra time for the merge, in total two evenings. My goal was to minimize the diff as well as possible and clarify the current situation as good as possible
<siretart> cjwatson: and you are totally right, the previous merge changelog was done rather in a hurry, and nothing really has changed wrt system/internal library copies
<siretart> cjwatson: btw, do you see any realistic chance that we can demote xine-lib to universe?
<siretart> wow. the kubuntu-devel mailing list automatically rejects postings for non subscribers.
<lifeless> siretart: is it on l.l.n or l.u.c or elsewhere ?
<\sh> grmpf
<\sh> syncpackage  --force -d wheezy -r precise  pinot -> fails
<siretart> lifeless: lists.ubuntu.com.
<bdrung> \sh: use the proposed version or the daily build of u-d-t
<siretart> lifeless: already mailed -owner, but I'd be surprised if they'd care. the automatic message I've received was quite unfriendly, TBH.
<\sh> bdrung, any reason why the others were working but only pinot is failing?
<bdrung> \sh: because the changelog is not yet available on debian
<debfx> and yet launchpad manages to spam kubuntu-devel with merge requests every now and then
<\sh> bdrung, and a newer release of syncpackage fixes this?
<bdrung> \sh: yes
<\sh> bdrung, got it...so it doesn't fail anymore when the changelog is missing
<bdrung> \sh: bug #880051
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 880051 in ubuntu-dev-tools (Ubuntu Oneiric) "syncpackage crashed with AttributeError in copy(): 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'strip'" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/880051
<siretart> debfx: again, I'm not surprised
<bdrung> \sh: it would be nice, if you could confirm the fix
<\sh> bdrung, done
<lifeless> siretart: :(
<debfx> siretart: I think that reject policy should definitely change but I'm not sure who could moderate the list
<siretart> debfx: thanks for your response. I hope that this is enough to demote xine-lib
<siretart> debfx: feel free to ping me when it got demoted, we can then investigate how to reduce the delta to debian further
<DoctorPepper> hi guys!!!
<DoctorPepper> agateau:  are your in here ?
<MNaumann> Hi, I posted this package removal request/suggestion recently: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/882014 - could someone please check whether it's properly filed?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 882014 in indicator-weather (Ubuntu) "Please consider package removal or adding developers" [Undecided,New]
<Chotaz`work> Is this the channel for ubuntu development on bile devices, smartphones and tablets?
<lool> slangasek: I've debdiffed udev_173-0ubuntu4.dsc and udev_173-0ubuntu5.dsc and don't see the disappearance of test/ that you mention, so I suspect an earlier upload caused this?  there seems to be a small test/ directory too
<Riddell> siretart: rejecting postings from non subscribers is the only sustainable way to run a mailing list, I'm afraid if I had to manually review it each day I'd soon forget
<siretart> Riddell: relocating your spam issues to contributors isn't very welcoming nor friendly either.
<Riddell> siretart: it's not great right enough but it's the only way I've found of having a working mailing list
<siretart> Riddell: Then I disagree with your understanding of 'having a working mailing list': Dropping mail of legitimate users is unfriendly at best.
<Riddell> siretart: but I know I don't have the time or self discipline to be the manual filter for it so the end result is the same
<azeem_> maybe others would volunteer to moderate
<tjaalton> what is the uds irc channel?
<broder> #ubuntu-uds
<tjaalton> thanks
<broder> with #ubuntu-uds-bonaire1 and similar for individual rooms
<Laney> the synopsis text on summit is seriously tiny
<lamont> why does my laptop think that 43 minutes, 56% battery is "critically low"?
<mwhudson> lamont: my laptop used to say that and hibernate when i *plugged in* ac power
<lamont> even less bonus
<slangasek> lool: interesting, apparently the test/ directory disappeared from upstream several cycles ago but was still sitting on the packaging branch :)
<sconklin> cjwatson: you available?
<sconklin> anyone know which package/script might set /usr/sbin/update-initramfs as a symlink to /bin/true?
<sconklin> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/880476
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 880476 in linux (Ubuntu) "after update to kernel 3.0.0-13 ubuntu 11.10 does not start" [High,Triaged]
<cjwatson> sconklin: casper, I think
<cjwatson> hm, maybe not
<cjwatson> can't remember, sorry
<cjwatson> ask for 'dpkg -S update-initramfs', that might show it
<sconklin> cjwatson: thanks
<sconklin> initramfs installs it, but I think something else must have set it as a symlink
<sconklin> er initramfs-tools I meant
<cjwatson> sure, I meant ask the user
<cjwatson> maybe 'dpkg-divert --list | grep update-initramfs'
<sconklin> good point, duh.
<cjwatson> (that's probably more useful/reliable than dpkg -S, but perhaps ask for both)
<sconklin> excellent, I'll ask
<sconklin> cjwatson: I didn't know about dpkg-divert --list, thanks!
<pasqoo> Hi, I'm setting up pbuilder and the guide tells me to run "pbuilder-dist <release> create"
<pasqoo> should I put precise instead of <release>? Or natty?
<tumbleweed> pasqoo: we develop against the devolpment release, precise
<geser> yes, release is a placeholder for the release you want a pbuilder for
<pasqoo> I'm followin this: http://developer.ubuntu.com/packaging/html/getting-set-up.html
<pasqoo> So probably I should put precise. Thanks tumbleweed geser
<buzz_> *grumble* no builders, long queue, impatient.
<buzz_> i386 builders due back for ppa building soonish or ?
<geser> buzz_: the people in #launchpad might know better when the additional PPA builders come back
<buzz_> thanks
<chrisccoulson> b
<AnAnt> Hello, which packages installs/creates /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf ?
<AnAnt> $dpkg -S /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf
<AnAnt> dpkg-query: no path found matching pattern /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf.
<micahg> AnAnt: the greeter I think
<AnAnt> ^ that's the output on an oneiric system
<TheMuso> AnAnt: That would be the lightdm package.
<TheMuso> micahg: The greeter ships its own configuration file.
<micahg> TheMuso: ah, right
<AnAnt> http://packages.ubuntu.com/oneiric/amd64/lightdm/filelist <= /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf is not there
<htorque> i don't think that file is there by default, but it gets generated when i do something like "sudo /usr/lib/lightdm/lightdm-set-defaults -s <session-name>"
<AnAnt> htorque: aha
<AnAnt> htorque: thanks
<tumbleweed> pitti: I see you are busy processing SRUs. Can you also please hit oneiric's NEW queue?
<nawk> http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/ubuntu-policy/policy.html/ch-controlfields.html#s-debianchangesfiles
<nawk> What is the Ubuntu archive maintenance software?
<soren> nawk: Launchpad
<nawk> hi soren!
<nawk> So I am reading about how ubuntu manages packages; I want to get something straight.  Does the Ubuntu archive maintenance software, Launchpad, maintain only those softwares in those handful of repos (multiverse, universe, canonical etc); meaning PPAs owned by other ppl are separate from it?
<jelmer> nawk: Launchpad does more than just maintain the Ubuntu archive; it provides PPA as well.
<jelmer> as well as features like bugtracking, specifications, translations, etc.
<nawk> hi jelmer
<nawk> http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/ubuntu-policy/policy.html/ch-controlfields.html#s-debianchangesfiles
<jelmer> nawk: sure, what's with that link?
<nawk> So suppose I register my own PPA for the archival of a software I wrote, foo-1.3-rc1.deb
<nawk> For launchpad to "process updates to packages", i'd want/need to have .changes files in there too right?
<jelmer> yes, you generally upload a set of files  to Launchpad - usually a tarball with the upstream source, a changes files, a .dsc file and the ubuntu-specific changes (usually .diff.gz or .debian.tar.gz)
#ubuntu-devel 2011-11-01
<nawk> "ubuntu-specific changes"?  I am new to this, so... would a .deb binary package compiled for Ubuntu still work for a Debian system?
<LLStarks> jcastro, can you add me to the etherpad list please? i'd like to look at the uds-p pads. thanks
 * SpamapS wonders why etherpad isn't readonly for all :p
<ajmitch> SpamapS: it'd cut down on the workload a bit if you had no action items? :)
<tumbleweed> yay, and we have another tzdata update to do...
<mok0> I need to use a version of libcurl, but I notice there are 3 options: libcurl4-gnutls-dev, libcurl4-nss-dev, libcurl4-openssl-dev. Which one is recommended? (I.e. "most standard")
<siretart> mok0: the one that is compatible with the software that you intend to link libcurl with
<mok0> siretart: heh, thanks... but I don't know the difference
<mok0> siretart: the application just needs to do a standard http/ftp download AFAICT
<mok0> From the description, it seems the difference is which library provides the SSL support: OpenSSL, NSS or GNUtls
<siretart> mok0: all variants are functionally the same. it depends on the license of your application
<mok0> siretart: ok, thanks I will look into it
<rye> seb128, hi, re: bug #874501- the upstream patch applies cleanly. I have created a packaging branch for oneiric and attached it to the bug. Is there anything I need to do to get it into the package?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 874501 in gnome-keyring (Ubuntu Oneiric) "couldn't prepare to write out keyring" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/874501
<seb128> rye, subscribe ubuntu-sponsors
<seb128> or create a merge request
<seb128> rye, so it shows up on http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/
<rye> seb128, was I right to have the changelog entry added to the branch?
<seb128> rye, yes
<rye> awesome!
<rye> seb128, than you very much!
<seb128> ideally your change would be something ready to build and upload
<seb128> thanks for working on it!
<seb128> rye, ok, I just had a look to your merge request, it's good
<seb128> rye, one small detail, srus should be targetted to -proposed
<seb128> i.e oneiric-proposed
<rye> seb128, can I fix it in the branch and re-push?
<seb128> rye, sure, just do an extra commit and push
<rye> seb128, great! pushed
<seb128> rye, thanks
<seb128> mpt, there?
<mpt> seb128, yep
<seb128> mpt, are you in a session or busy?
<seb128> mpt, we could use your input there (antigua3)
<seb128> mpt, we are talking about how to notify users about proposed updates testing
<seb128> i.e software-properties, update-manager UIs changes
<mpt> seb128, I'm in the "Meet the desktop designers" in Antigua 1
<seb128> mpt, oh ok, no worry, we took some action items to check with you on the design
<mpt> seb128, ok, thanks
<MrBIOS> does anyone here at UDS have a blank CD or DVD they can spare?
<cjwatson> MrBIOS: I think I have a spare; you can find me in Bonaire 1 until lunch
<cjwatson> oh, hm, wonder if I have it with me *rummages*
<MrBIOS> cjwatson: cool, thanks, just let me know :)
<MrBIOS> I'll tromp over there
<cjwatson> ah, yes, a bit dusty but will probably be ok
<MrBIOS> cjwatson: that should be fine :) Can we meet up at Bonaire 1 right after your session ends?
<MrBIOS> if mine ends beforehand, I will head over there. Not far
<cjwatson> MrBIOS: sure
<Syd23> exit
<int_ua> I just checked acpi_listen for the lock key on the right side of the Nokia N900 and it generates
<int_ua> button/screenlock SCRNLCK 00000080
<int_ua> But when I create a file in /etc/acpi/events it ignores it even after restarting. Anyone here with acpi experience?
<int_ua> also there are two "keyboard: can't emulate rawmode for keycode 152" for each press in the dmesg
<sbeattie> pitti: do you have any idea when empathy 3.2.1.1 or 3.3.1 will be pulled from upstream?
<broder> is there any header file that actually gets installed that has the PCI class/subclass IDs?
#ubuntu-devel 2011-11-02
<MrBIOS> re
<twb> 18:23 <twb> What are these dh_installinit errors? http://paste.debian.net/141974/
<mok0_> I am having trouble with an upstream tarball that's packaged without top directory. It used to be that the tool chain would figure out how to deal with that, but it does not seem to work anymore
<mok0_> I'm just getting a huge diff
<Halabund> Hello!  Could someone take a look at this bug, perhaps try to reproduce it? --> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vim/+bug/884127
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884127 in vim (Ubuntu) "gVim freezes when entering input mode and Chinese IME (IBUS) is installed" [Undecided,New]
<Laney> sladen: Do you plan on SRUing the font again? Just got bug #885092 for backports.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 885092 in lucid-backports "Ubuntu 0.80 fonts for Lucid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/885092
<sladen> Laney: I do.  I was hoping to get a second update first
<Laney> ok, I shall reassign the bug to you then
<Laney> you = ubuntu-whatever-the-package-name-is
<Laney> you win :-)
<Halabund> Could someone please take a look at this bug, perhaps try to reproduce it? --> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vim/+bug/884127
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884127 in vim (Ubuntu) "gVim freezes when entering input mode and Chinese IME (IBUS) is installed" [Undecided,New]
<broder> barry: i'm sitting in a qt session and being told that pyside is the future of qt in python, not pyqt4, so you may want to tweak some of the workitems from yesterday when you're writing things up
<cjwatson> broder: Riddell said yesterday that pyside was dead; there seems to be some disconnect here ...
<broder> well, pyside development is represented in the room :)
<cjwatson> broder: I'm not saying they're wrong, just that there's disconnect :)
<sladen> kudos to the summit peeps!
<nigelb> sladen: :)
<nigelb> sladen: Thanks for the javascript counter suggestion!
<Riddelll> cjwatson, broder: http://www.pyside.org/2011/08/pyside-project-future/
<pitti> sbeattie: 3.2.1.1 probably soon in oneiric-proposed; 3.3, no idea (it's not clear yet whether we update to GNOME 3.4 for precise)
<pitti> sbeattie: I expect that we'll continue point release updates next wek
<pitti> RAOF: mind to review my SRU for bug 885204 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 885204 in jockey (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Recommending proprietary driver on hybrid systems can break 3D" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/885204
<sbeattie> pitti: okay. I already addressed the security issue fixed in 3.2.1.1 in oneiric, but it's still an open issue in precise, but I figured you'd be pulling something in there soon.
<pitti> sbeattie: ah, good; yes, we will
 * RAOF waits for launchpad to generate the diff.
<sbeattie> pitti: thanks.
<Laney> im
<Laney> oops
<Syd23> hey guys ..i want to become a ubuntu develper..please guide me as to what should i be reading..the apis and concepts?..i am a c and python programmer
<Syd23> ??
<broder> Riddell: did you stick around for the discussion about qt-project maybe possibly at least talking about adopting pyside?
<GRiD> Syd23, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment ?
<Syd23> GRiD..have read it but wasnt very helpfull
<GRiD> Syd23, yeah there's a lot of information there. but perhaps you can pick something specific you're interested in, and read up more on that component. usually there are "easy" bugs to work on.
<Riddell> broder: changing where a project is hosted doesn't change that there's nobody to work on it and the technology isn't as good
<Syd23> GRid..hmmm..how do i get the code that i need?
<GRiD> Syd23, probably depends on what you're working on. launchpad.net hosts quite a bit.
<Syd23> GRiD ohk..thanx
<GRiD> np
<chrisccoulson_> jasoncwarner_, you coming to the thunderbird session?
<smoser> Anyone know why this build failed: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libguestfs/1.14.0-1/+build/2891412
<micahg> smoser: implicit pointer conversion?
<smoser> yeah, i see that now...
<smoser> thanks.
<broder> hmm...with the new NotAutomatic handling, what does apt do if i apt-get install a package that's only available in -backports? does it just pull it in automatically?
<broder> can i harass someone to save my e-mail from tech-board moderation purgatory?
<broder> i guess i can just resend it
#ubuntu-devel 2011-11-03
<johnkn63> Hi  Does anyone know the Debian Import Freeze date for Pangolin?
<tumbleweed> johnkn63: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseSchedule
<johnkn63> Thank you very much Tumbleweed - 29th December I will have to get that package into Debian soon
<micahg> actually, DIF has been moved to Jan 9
<tumbleweed> that was changed this afternoon :)
<johnkn63> Thank you michag. That's a little better.
<poolie> hi, could i please get a review on https://code.launchpad.net/~bzr-core/ubuntu/oneiric/bzr/sru-2.4.2/+merge/81039 ?
<micahg> johnkn63: DIF is also just for the automatic imports, you can still request a sync from testing until feature freeze
<johnkn63> micahg: Yes, but should I try and see how far I can get with putting the packages into Debian first or should I put in a request straight away to sync with ubuntu?
<micahg> johnkn63: no, they should ideally go through Debian first, I'm not suggesting to wait though, the earlier the better
<micahg> I was just saying the import freeze is for automatic syncs, we can do manual syncs afterwards if needed
<danbeam> Anybody know where I'd be able to find good doc on integrating native apps with Unity?  I'd like to add a download progress bar to Chromium.
<danbeam> whoops, sorry, saw topic, should probably go to #ubuntu-app-devel instead
<wzssyqa> hi, I multiarched gstreamer, but when install xx:i386 on amd64, I got an error: iso-codes is an virtual package
<wzssyqa> what wrong?
<speakman> start-stop-daemon seems to "eat" the stdout of the starting application. Any idea how to forward it's output to a file instead?
<dimaursu16> hello
<dimaursu16> does anyone know a good tutorial about ncurses for linux?
<joshuau> hi guys
<Bigwhale> Greetings.
<Bigwhale> Am I the only one having problems with python, buildout and multiarch?
<Bigwhale> more specifically with python imaging
<mok0_> Bigwhale: what kind of problems?
<Bigwhale> mok0, Python imaging library is looking for freetype and jpeg libs in /usr/lib instead of /usr/lib/x64... or i386
<Bigwhale> I'd have to change setup.py
<lool> wookey, cjwatson: http://people.linaro.org/~lool/dl-lp-chroot
<broder> gyah. why don't we have ubuntu's version of lintian in VCS anywhere?
<tumbleweed> aren't we trying to get rid of that delta?
<Macs> when i try to start iptables it says "iptables: unrecognized service" can anyone help me?
<broder> tumbleweed: i don't know, but there still is one, it doesn't import into udd, and there's no branch in the git repo
<broder> http://paste.ubuntu.com/727398/
<tumbleweed> yeah, that's pretty tiny
<tumbleweed> you can do packaging without VCS, you know :)
<broder> but merging patches for the lintian lab config across uplodas is annoying
<geser> just figure out if http://package-import.ubuntu.com/status/lintian.html got fixed or not
<bjsnider> i don't understand why there would have to be an ubuntu version of lintian
<test-ds> !regression-alert
<ubottu> cjwatson, jdong, pitti, skaet, ScottK, kees, Daviey, pgraner: reporting regression in a stable release update; investigate severity, start an incident report, perhaps have the package blacklisted from the archive
<test-ds> bug #482419 (package ifenslave-2.6 in lucid-updates).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 482419 in ifenslave-2.6 (Ubuntu Lucid) "802.3ad interface bonding fails if started too early" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/482419
<test-ds> The fix/patch breaks the use of "bond_primary" in /etc/network/interfaces.
<test-ds> See also bug #823366.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 823366 in ifenslave-2.6 (Ubuntu) "bond_primary is ignored in /etc/network/interfaces" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/823366
<LaserJock> bjsnider: at one point anyway there were some ubuntu-specific check in lintian, they could be still there
#ubuntu-devel 2011-11-04
<gunztunz> what does it mean if my login fails and all it says is "lsb_release command not found" and "module unknown" ?
<Halabund> Hi, can someone please take a look at this bug report and try to confirm? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vim/+bug/884127
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 884127 in vim (Ubuntu) "gVim freezes when entering input mode and Chinese IME (IBUS) is installed" [Undecided,New]
<Halabund> or at least tell me how to get some attention for it, or how to work around it ...
<jasox> does anyone know where is indicators icons , in ubuntu 11.10
<jasox> i want to create indicator for redmine in python
<jasox> i fount it
<jasox> /usr/share/icons/ubuntu-mono-light/
<xtian> hi everyone. have the gnome versioning plans for precise materialized somewhere? so far, i did not find a primary source of information (just reports from people attending the "Ubuntu Developer Summit for Ubuntu 12.04 LTS" in orlando)
<xtian> and there is ... say ... some "fuzz" in the information i gathered so far
<geser> let the people return back from UDS and write down what was decided at UDS
<xtian> geser: so they're still at it, ok
<xtian> geser: any typical place where the decisions are gathered? ubuntu-wiki, maybe near to the release schedule somewhere?
<geser> not sure, but check the blueprints for the sessions
<xtian> geser: ok thanks, will do
<cjwatson> stgraber: there was a regression report on IRC last night for ifenslave-2.6/lucid - see bug 482419 and bug 823366
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 482419 in ifenslave-2.6 (Ubuntu Lucid) "802.3ad interface bonding fails if started too early" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/482419
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 823366 in ifenslave-2.6 (Ubuntu) "bond_primary is ignored in /etc/network/interfaces" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/823366
<stgraber> cjwatson: assigned the new bug report to me, I'll have a look early next week when I have hardware around
<cjwatson> stgraber: thanks
<balloons> does anyone have a thought about how we can properly determine if a user is running under gnome in python? I have conditional logic that I don't want run for a user running xfce, kde, etc..
<broder> balloons: you can use os.environ['XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP']
<balloons> broder, thank you..
<balloons> can someone help me with fixing a bug? I'm walking thru this guide https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFix, and I used bzr branch lp to get my source code. I have changed the code and tested it on my local box and I would like to know what I should do next. How can I generate a patch or submit this back to the project?
<GRiD> balloons, i think the general procedure is to commit it to your own branch on lp, then propose a merge
<balloons> GRiD, alright.. so I'm coming from a git perspective on this, bzr being new.. I take it I create a local branch, commit to it, then push to lp? The pushing to lp is a bit confusing, since I pulled from a development master. It's ok to add a branch to the project?
<tumbleweed> broder: yes
<tumbleweed> balloons: I mean
<balloons> I shall give it a try then
<balloons> is there anything special that should go in the commit message? something like the lp bug number perhaps?
<jelmer> balloons: you can use "--fixes lp:BUGNO" as argument to commit to mention the bug number
<jelmer> that will also take care of adding links to the relevant bug automatically on launchpad
<balloons> sweet.. thank you
<balloons> cool.. looks like that worked fine
<genjix> is there a channel for people who build ubuntu packages? i'm learning how to create a deb package.
<genjix> want to package cppdb up
<Riddell> micahg: "The name 'kubuntu-dev-owner' has been blocked by the Launchpad administrators." any idea why that would be?
<tumbleweed> genjix: #ubuntu-packaging
<Riddell> stgraber, highvoltage: did edubuntu-dev-owner have a similar problem being registered?
<genjix> thanks TheMuso
<highvoltage> Riddell: not that I'm aware of
<stgraber> Riddell: nope, I messed up some membership stuff when I created it that needed LP intervention but that was entirely my fault :)
#ubuntu-devel 2011-11-05
<psusi> for everyone who made it to UDS, I have this to say:  BOOBIES!  that is all...
<slangasek> cyphermox: heh yuck, looks like the usb-modeswitch merge just became higher priority: usb-modeswitch-data is synced and needs a newer version of usb-modeswitch
<Kre10s_> ok. so i'm trying to create a package for ubuntu... I seem to have done everything correctly up to, creating the actual package  sudo pbuilder build ../*.dsc
<Kre10s_> pbuilder tries to build my package, but can not find ao/ao.h. My package depends on libao... how do i specify this dependancy?
<slangasek> infinity, lamont: does LP currently cope with :any multiarch build-dependencies?
<genjix> hey i seem to be having trouble with missing m4 macros for configure.ac and such in ubuntu
<genjix> i installed autotools-dev and autoconf
<genjix> autoreconf -i
<genjix> configure.ac:11: error: possibly undefined macro: AC_MSG_ERROR
<genjix> how can i tell configure.ac to copy other include/* to /usr/include/ ?
<genjix> during make install
<broder> genjix: you probably want to be looking for a Makefile.am or Makefile.in instead - those control what actually happen when you run make
<genjix> ok
<genjix> libfoo_la_INCLUDEDIR = $(includedir)
<genjix> libfoo_la_include_HEADERS = ... list of heades.hpp
<genjix> is that correct?
<genjix> oops wrong channel :p
<genjix> so i've packaged 2 libraries
<genjix> how do i get them into universe?
<mewerner_arand> genjix: The most common way is to get them into Debian first, also, #ubuntu-motu is likely the more appropriate channel for this
<genjix> ok
<genjix> thanks
 * Chipzz facepalms at https://bugs.launchpad.net/calibre/+bug/885027
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 885027 in calibre "SUID Mount Helper has 5 Major Vulnerabilities" [Undecided,Fix released]
<Chipzz> what a bloody ignorant f*ck
<slangasek> that seems to be a popular bug number this week
<penguin42> it ended up on some website/mailinglist somewhere didn't it?
<penguin42> unfortunately I don't think most of the people who look notice that the Ubuntu package had it fixed sensibly
<slangasek> seems to have been reddited
<maco> slangasek: still around the hotel?
<slangasek> maco: no, somewhere over Wyoming
<maco> Oh in flight wifi?
<penguin42> hmm
<penguin42> Devil's tower wyoming?
<slangasek> yes, Delta has in-flight wifi on all their domestic flights
<slangasek> it's a good way to pass the 4 hours between coasts
<broder> no fair, how are your flights 4 hours? mine is 6
<slangasek> 4Â½
<slangasek> but that's the flight from Atlanta
<genjix> configure:15902: error:  SSL development library not found
<genjix> builds fine on my local system but not on launchpad
<genjix> the control file clearly specifies libssl-dev
<broder> slangasek: ah, ok
<genjix> http://privatepaste.com/70a57c911a
<genjix> what am i missing?
<slangasek> genjix: hard to say without the build log and source code
<genjix> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/84513012/buildlog_ubuntu-oneiric-i386.libbitcoin_0%7Egit31f0a63-1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<genjix> build log ^
<genjix> PKG_CHECK_MODULES(SSL, libssl >= 0.9, :, AC_MSG_ERROR([ SSL development library not found]))
<slangasek> well, see the previous line
<slangasek> it didn't find pkg-config, so it can't use pkg-config to find anything
<slangasek> ergo, you need a build-dependency on pkg-config too
<genjix> aha
<genjix> ok thank you
<penguin42> slangasek: Out of interest what do the geolocation stuff make of it?
<broder> do i need to worry about, e.g., getpwnam caching results across a chroot() call? (chroot(2), not chroot(1))
<slangasek> penguin42: whose geolocation stuff?
<slangasek> I assume you don't mean GPS, which FAA regulations prohibit turning on while on board ;)
<penguin42> slangasek: I mean the stuff based off the nearby wifi signals
<genjix> slangasek: reminds me of c++ template errors. always ignore everything except the first and last line ;)
<maco> Or geo ip since I imagine it changes as the plane moves
<penguin42> maco: That depends; the one on the UK east coast trains all gets routed through somewhere in Sweden and that's the externally visible address
<slangasek> penguin42: looks like google maps doesn't want to even try
<penguin42> bah
<jasox> Hi ppl I am making ubuntu indicator for redmine
<jasox> If you want to test it or help you can find it on https://github.com/jasox/Ubuntu-redmine-indicator
<slangasek> lamont, infinity: After installing, the following source dependencies are still unsatisfied: gettext:any(missing)
<slangasek> lamont, infinity: so, no. :)  could either of you give me a pointer to where to fix that?
<broder> it's kind of depressing that i expect the in-air wifi to be better than the wifi at MCO
<infinity> slangasek: I assume that you just want it satsified from the current arch?
<infinity> slangasek: If so, should be a 1-line fix to sbuild.
<infinity> slangasek: (To just strip the :any off)
<infinity> slangasek: But if you want it to actually do what I imagine it's intended to do, there's a bit more work here...
<slangasek> infinity: we just want it stripped off, yeah - where do I find the right sbuild to patch?
<broder> maco: fyi, vx's in-flight wifi + google maps places me on the ground at sfo just after takeoff :)
<infinity> slangasek: lib/canonical/buildd/sbuild (ish, I'm not looking at an LP tree right now)
<infinity> slangasek: And once the patch is submitted to LP, go ahead and just throw it at lamont too, since LP rollouts don't actually relate to lp-buildd. :P
<broder> maco: geoip puts me in texas, which i guess is probably where the traffic actually goes
<sveinse> Hi. I have a LP bug which is tagged verification-needed. How do I mark it as verified when done?
<mewerner_arand> sveinse: remove that tag and add verification-done, once it is tested in -proposed
<sveinse> mewerner_arand: Thanks. Like this: bug 787831
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 787831 in meld (Ubuntu Natty) "Meld crashes if svn working dir contains svn externals dirs" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/787831
<jtaylor> sveinse: thanks, can you also verify the other ones associated tot hat sru?
<jtaylor> bug 770549, bug 786134 and bug 774265
<sveinse> jtaylor: uhm, sorry. This is a first time for me. Where can i find the references to the other "sru"'s?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 770549 in meld (Ubuntu Natty) "meld /path/to/folder doesn't work" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/770549
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 786134 in meld (Ubuntu Natty) "Meld chokes on file comparison" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/786134
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 774265 in meld (Ubuntu Natty) "[natty] meld hangs comparing attached files" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/774265
<sveinse> Ah, I'll check them
<jtaylor> sru = stable release update
<jtaylor> thanks for testing the proposed package
<maco> Sveinse: the list of applicable bug numbers is found in the package's changelog
<maco> Also on launchpad
<sveinse> I'm looking at these SRU's now. Just a quick question: Any simple way of going back and forth to the official and to the proposed package? ..or basically how do I downgrade a package?
<jtaylor> apt-get install package-name=version
<jtaylor> you can get the version numbers with apt-cache policy package-name
<sveinse> Done. All of them. That kinda felt good :)
<Laney> nice work!
<sveinse> Now, we are very stuck with bug 886690. Would be very nice if someone could verify it. I'm a little clueless how to proceed / search for a workaround.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 886690 in qemu-linaro (Ubuntu) "qemu segfaults in armel chroot on i386 host" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/886690
 * penguin42 looks
<sveinse> Does anyone know if theres a oneiric backport of qemu to natty? It seems the bug is not occuring on oneiric, but the server is currently locked to running natty
<penguin42> sveinse: I'm fairly sure there is a ppa with the latest qemu-linaro in
<penguin42> sveinse: https://launchpad.net/~linaro-maintainers/+archive/tools/?field.series_filter=lucid
#ubuntu-devel 2011-11-06
<sveinse> penguin42: excellent, thanks. It works using the Linaro PPA. I'll comment that on the bug
<penguin42> no problem
<broder> ugh. looks like upstart's test suite works fine on the buildds, but errors out on my oneiric laptop: http://paste.ubuntu.com/729586/
<penguin42> broder: could be a load of differences I guess; don't the buildd's tend to run with fairly old kernels?
<broder> penguin42: they do - i believe they're generally the previous lts. i know that libnih and upstart's test suites have caught weird kernel bugs in the past and i'm afraid i'm going to end up chasing a similar rabbit hole or something. trying to get a minimal test case
<penguin42> broder: Or it could be an interaction of the upstart/packages on the laptop I guess
<lacqui> Hi.  Trying to fix my first bug here (bug #885329).  I've followed the instructions on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFix but I'm getting the following error:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 885329 in eggdrop (Ubuntu) "eggdrop crash on i386" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/885329
<lacqui> debian/rules:4: /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/debhelper.mk: No such file or directory
<bjsnider> lacqui, install cdbs on your build system
<bjsnider> apt-get build-dep eggdrop
<lacqui> bjsnider: thanks
<lacqui> like I said, first bug :P
<lacqui> Is this the right place to request a review for a bug fix? (#885329)
<sladen> lacqui: let me have a look
<lacqui> sladen: thanks
<pgquiles> I'm the maintainer of the 'witty' package. In Oneiric, the package does not work because it was apparently built against a buggy jQuery ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/witty/+bug/886456 ). How can I get an update (actually, a rebuild) included in oneiric-updates :-?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 886456 in witty (Ubuntu) "Built-in httpd does not render any widget" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<tumbleweed> pgquiles: request a rebuild in the bug and subscribe ubuntu-sponsors
<pgquiles> tumbleweed: thank you
<tumbleweed> it probably should symlink to libjs-jquery's jquery rather than bundling it, although that's not without caveats either (see the recent discussion in debian-devel)
<Chipzz> pgquiles: actually it depends what you mean. You didn't specify if you wanted an update of your package or of jquery
<pgquiles> Chipzz: my package
<pgquiles> tumbleweed: witty symlinks to jquery on build, but it converts jquery to C++ and embeds it in the .so
<pgquiles> tumbleweed: I was part of the discussion in debian-devel :-)
<tumbleweed> converts jquery to C++? eep
<Chipzz> pgquiles: exactly how do you intend to convert jquery into C++??
<hyperair> O_o
<Chipzz> jQuery is a CLIENT-side javascript library. C++ is (at best) used in your software which is SERVER-side
<hyperair> maybe it's something elfrc
<hyperair> stuff the jquery source code into a .so file that can spit out things on the server side?
 * hyperair shrugs
<Chipzz> hyperair: jQuery will NEVER run server-side
<Chipzz> because it operates on the DOM
<hyperair> Chipzz: read what i said carefully.
<pgquiles> Chipzz: tumbleweed: on build, Wt takes jquery.min.js and generates a C++ file, which is compiled into the .so
<hyperair> Chipzz: elfrc embeds arbitrary files into elf objects. since it's a built-in httpd, it wouldn't be unplausible to have it serve jquery.js from a static string somewhere
<pgquiles> Wt is not like PHP. Webapps using Wt are real programs (binaries), the result of compiling C++. Instead of reading jquery.min.js every time from disk, it is streamed from memory
<hyperair> right, see, that's what i said.
<Chipzz> hyperair: that would be a big big BIG facepalm
<hyperair> Chipzz: it's serving jquery.min.js from memory instead of reading from disk.
 * Chipzz starts to understand the sentiment against web developers on #debian-devel
<pgquiles> Chipzz: developing web apps with Wt is more like developing a desktop app with Qt
<pgquiles> C++, a copycat of the Qt API, etc
<pgquiles> :-)
<pgquiles> great for embedded and/or high-performance
<Chipzz> pgquiles: as someone who does web development as a full-time job I have 3 words for you: WHAT. THE. FUCK?
<pgquiles> Chipzz: http://webtoolkit.eu
<pgquiles> I gave up on Rails when I started using Wt
<hyperair> Chipzz: hey it's not so bad, it's like CGI except without the exec() overhead?
 * hyperair wouldn't mind doing native code webapps.
<hyperair> it could turn out to be pretty performant.
<pgquiles> it's not only native code, it's also the API: forget about pages, etc. It's like a desktop app.
<pgquiles> hyperair: in fact, you can also compile the webapp to a FastCGI module instead of using the embedded HTTP server
<hyperair> pgquiles: in all my life in web development, i've always looked down upon *anything* that autogenerates my html code for m.e
<Chipzz> hyperair: for what gain exactly? serving jquery.min.js a couple of ms faster? taking in mind that jquery.min.js is minized already... if performance REALLY matters that much, put a reverse proxy in front of it. but for the love of god, why obscure your web application in such a way???
<hyperair> Chipzz: *shrug* i'm talking about the idea of webtoolkit in general, not the jquery instance.
<hyperair> Chipzz: also a reverse proxy is sometimes a rather overengineered solution.
<Chipzz> hyperair: not as overengineered as compiling jquery.min.js into a .so :|
<pgquiles> Chipzz: because that way when you want to deploy your webapp, you only need to deploy ONE single executable that embeds everything
<hyperair> Chipzz: the framework's already there. i don't think it's really that overengineered.
<hyperair> Chipzz: it probably ends up even simpler.
<hyperair> Chipzz: especially at the deployment stage
<Chipzz> pgquiles: which matters exactly nada since you're packaging it. you deploy your webapp by using apt-get install or dpkg -i
<pgquiles> Chipzz: not everybody packages everything. Especially on embedded, Windows, mobile, etc
<Chipzz> pgquiles: no, but you are asking specifically in the context of packaging it
<hyperair> pgquiles: does witty generate this one-executable-binary thing for new webapps?
<pgquiles> Chipzz: sorry, I don't follow. The 'witty' package contains the libraries to develop webapplications, not an aplication
<hyperair> pgquiles: i.e. it generates the single-executable-webapp?
<hyperair> pgquiles: like a funky linker?
<pgquiles> hyperair: yes, it does. Just like against wthttp and it will embed the HTTP(S) server. If you'd rather generate a FastCGI module, just link to wtfcgi.
<hyperair> wtfcgi
<pgquiles> hyperair: Wt webapps are developed in C++ and compiled and linked using gcc and ld
<hyperair> i like that name.
<Chipzz> pgquiles: same difference really.
<pgquiles> it's not "link a funky linker" but "using a funky linker" :-)
<hyperair> Chipzz: so there you have it. witty isn't a web server. it provides the tools to make a one-executable webserver.
<pgquiles> that's it
<hyperair> Chipzz: with embedded webapp.
<Chipzz> hyperair: like I just said, same difference. unless witty is some sort of "compiler" instead of a "library"
<hyperair> Chipzz: that's exactly what i'm talking about.
<hyperair> Chipzz: more like a runtime that's statically linked with your webapp.
<pgquiles> Chipzz: witty is a C++ library. You use it like you use Gtk+, Qt, libc, etc
<Chipzz> static linking? this keeps getting better and better
<pgquiles> Chipzz: or dynamic linking, your choice
<hyperair> Chipzz: it's a one-executable webapp-cum-server. wtf else do you expect it to be besides static linking?!
<Chipzz> hyperair: do I need to point out debians and ubuntus stance about static linking?
<hyperair> it's something you throw at somebody and tell them to execute to host a web server with said webapp
<pgquiles> libwt*-dev include the static libraries and the dynamic libraries
<hyperair> Chipzz: it's for *your own* web app.
<hyperair> Chipzz: something you're going to throw at $other_distro to run.
<Chipzz> hyperair: what happens when it turns out the version of jquery witty is currently shipping turns out to be buggy?
<hyperair> Chipzz: then you binNMU.
<pgquiles> Chipzz: actually, then you run into the discussion from debian-devel
<Chipzz> all the reverse deps? including all the webapps you compiled against witty and you sent off god-knows-where?
<pgquiles> Chipzz: if you replace jquery, probably the webapp breaks because it's not ready for that new version of  the javascript library
<pgquiles> Chipzz: just dynamic link, man
<hyperair> Chipzz: pgquiles said you can dynamically link your webapp anyways, so...
<pgquiles> static linking is your choice and it's not the default
<pgquiles> (CMake picks the so's by default)
<Chipzz> I think I'm going to retract from this discussion in order not to induce self-inflicted harm by repeatedly banging my head against the wall. laters
<hyperair> Chipzz: i don't know much about wt, this being the first time i'm hearing about it, but all your points so far has been off-mark.
<hyperair> your strawman is burning very brightly
<pgquiles> Chipzz: try Wt, then tell me what you think. After using it :-)
<hyperair> pgquiles: he probably won't, due to his set preconceptions against it.
<pgquiles> I have to admit the first time I read about Wt I thought it was crazy or plain stupid. Turns out it works beautifully and it's extremely performant.
<hyperair> i'll just say this out loud first: i dislike qt's way of reimplementing half the C++ standard library.
<hyperair> if wt does the same thing, i won't touch it with a 100-foot pole.
<hyperair> case in point QString
<pgquiles> hyperair: Qt needed to do that. Back then, C++ compilers were so broken and/or incomplete there was no other way to support other Unices.
<hyperair> pgquiles: that's in the past. qt4 could have dropped that.
<pgquiles> hyperair: Wt uses Boost, it does not reimplement
<hyperair> oh goody.
<pgquiles> hyperair: no, Qt 4 could not do that
<pgquiles> case in point: Solaris
<hyperair> pgquiles: typedefs blah blah thin wrappers
<pgquiles> HP-UX
<pgquiles> AIX
<hyperair> people use that crap?
 * hyperair coughs
<pgquiles> you'd be surprised how many companies use Boost
<hyperair> i'm not talking about boost
<hyperair> i'm talking about solaris/hp-ux/aix
<pgquiles> sure, less and less, but it's still widely used
<hyperair> boost is superbly awesome.
<pgquiles> heck, even SCO still has some clients left! :-D
<hyperair> yes, why couldn't qt use boost?
<pgquiles> back then Boost did not provide all it provides now
 * hyperair mumbles something about how it should die in a fire already
<hyperair> pgquiles: qt4 is fairly recent. boost was very mature by then
<pgquiles> also, Boost does not promise binary compatibility across versions
<pgquiles> not even now
<hyperair> oh right, that.
 * hyperair sighs
<pgquiles> Qt4 was released in 2005, started in 2003
<pgquiles> Qt 5 will be released early 2012
<pgquiles> also, C++ still does not provide introspection capabilities
<hyperair> nor will it ever.
<pgquiles> which is one of the main features moc provides
<hyperair> i find it a disgusting bastardization of C++
<pgquiles> even Glib has resorted to invent a mechanism for introspection
<hyperair> that's because C has no OO capabilities.
<pgquiles> the fact that C does not provide classes does not mean it has no OO capabilities
<pgquiles> Glib and Gtk are OO with C
<hyperair> correction: with C/GObject.
<hyperair> it's all part of GObject's API
<hyperair> it's not pure C.
<hyperair> for the record, gobject's reference counting has driven me up the wall many a time
<pgquiles> grammatically you are right
 * hyperair sighs
<hyperair> my definition of standard C is what ##c has.
<hyperair> and my definition of standard C++ is what ##c++ has.
<hyperair> by those definitions, i am correct in saying that C has no OO capabilities, period.
<hyperair> not "grammatically" or "technically" or any crap like that.
<hyperair> but GObject/C is better than Qt/Moc in the sense that it is implemented in standard C, rather than requiring some funky preprocessor to do stuff prior to compilation.
<hyperair> when you need a preprocessor that's not the standard C++ preprocessor, it's no longer C++.
<maco> What is moc?
<penguin42> hyperair: It's not too unusual to have preprocessed stuff before your lang
<pgquiles> maco: the metaobject compoiler
<pgquiles> hyperair: GObject introspection requires the use of the gir scanner, which is essentially the same as moc
<hyperair> pgquiles: there is a difference.
<pgquiles> maco: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/latest/moc.html
<hyperair> pgquiles: the gir scanner scans the *exact* same thing as the input to gcc.
<hyperair> pgquiles: the input to moc isn't the same thing that goes into g++
<penguin42> hyperair: All of these things are just signs that neith C or c++ quite fits into the view of what the GUI programmers need
<penguin42> hyperair: Which I guess is why you get things like Vala
<hyperair> penguin42: or people could use C#! \o/
<penguin42> hyperair: Yeh
 * hyperair holds up his evil mono supporter flag
 * penguin42 burns it
<hyperair> >=O
<hyperair> penguin42: gtkmm is standard C++ though.
 * penguin42 hasn't played with it
<hyperair> it's good stuff. unfortunately it doesn't work with gobject introspection
<hyperair> so C++-implemented widgets can only be used by other gtkmm things
<mewerner_arand> When was the installer modified to use @ + @home subvolumes for btrfs? Did it appear in natty? I'm making a layout section on the wiki: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/btrfs#Ubuntu-specific_subvolume_layout
<hyperair> @?
<udevbot_> Error: "?" is not a valid command.
<hyperair> that's pretty cool
<mewerner_arand> hyperair: the subvolume tat holds "/" is named "@", yes.
<hlamer> May package in PPA depend in package in another PPA? (Or what is the right channel for this question?)
<broder> hlamer: at the top-right of the PPA page should be an "Edit PPA dependencies" link. (for reference #launchpad is probably a better channel for discussing PPAs, though)
<hlamer> thanks, broder
<highvoltage> When will I be able to see my work items in http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/u/jonathan.html ?
<highvoltage> Or should I be looking somewhere else?
<dupondje> Empathy is broken since last upgrade it seems :(
<dupondje> [   88.095003] type=1400 audit(1320603235.045:21): apparmor="DENIED" operation="open" parent=1 profile="/usr/lib/telepathy/telepathy-*" name="/etc/default/apport" pid=1857 comm="telepathy-butte" requested_mask="r" denied_mask="r" fsuid=1000 ouid=0
<slangasek> lifeless: lp:~vorlon/launchpad/sbuild-multiarch-syntax test case> where's the right place for me to add this?
<lifeless> slangasek: you know, I have no idea :)
<lifeless> rather than flailing around with grep etc, I will ask some folk that have done a lot in this area, in a couple of hours
<lifeless> how soon do you need this change live?
<slangasek> lifeless: the sooner it can go live, the better; there are a number of packages in the base system that need to be switched to make use of this syntax to be cross-buildable
<slangasek> lifeless: indeed, 3 out of 5 Prio: required packages that I've looked at so far are affected (acl, attr, bash)
<marseillai_> hello
<marseillai_> could someone tell me where dh_make store the packager name information ? i'd to change it
<jbicha> marseillai_: debian/control
<marseillai_> jbicha: i didn't explain weel sorry.
<marseillai_> when dh_make build my package it store a wrong name in debian/control I'd like to change the source of this information
<marseillai_> it mispel my name
<DktrKranz> marseillai_: DEBFULLNAME environment variable
<bjsnider> marseillai_, you can store that info in .bashrc, and it may be there
<marseillai_> TheMuso: DktrKranz and bjsnider
#ubuntu-devel 2012-10-29
<vibhav> Should I write raring or raring-proposed in the changelogs?
<vibhav> (As uploads to raring will go to raring-proposed
<slangasek> vibhav: 'raring' is probably best
<vibhav> slangasek: thanks
<zyga> hey, is the plenary session streamed with google on air?
<chilicuil> zyga: http://video.ubuntu.com/live/
<zyga> thanks!
<zyga> virtual jono, that's new :)
<zyga> virtually watching virtual jono
<ogra-nx7> heh
<jono> zyga, lol
<jono> it kinda sucks being virtual jono
<jono> no super-powers or anything
<zyga> jono: you've got the super power of timeshift!
 * ogra-nx7 waits for the veggie part
<jono> lol
<jono> ogra-nx7, ;-)
<ogra-nx7> :)
<vibhav> hmm, the live strem aint working
<vibhav> stream*
<vibhav> When will the keynote start?
<zyga> vibhav: it's on
<ogra-nx7> after the video
<zyga> well
<zyga> http://video.ubuntu.com/live/
<vibhav> "The next live stream will begin at 13:55PDT/20:55UTC. "
<zyga> it seems to work here
<jono> vibhav, works for me
<jono> reload
<vibhav> works
<ogra-nx7> "... in the unlikely event of a loss in cabin pressure,  oxygen masks will ....."
<jono> ogra-nx7, LOL!
<ogra-nx7> veggies !!!!
<zyga> double sabdfl!
<zyga> whoops
<zyga> video has died
<lifeless> zyga: I'm having lots of video hangs
<lifeless> zyga: plays 30s / 1m and stops :(
<zyga> lifeless: I get nothing on my end
<chilicuil> zyga: yep, it's a known problem, just keep refreshing x.x
<zyga> k
<zyga> I guess ubuntu is just very popular now ;)
<chilicuil> zyga: some ppl just setup a hangout for following the uds https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/fd3477b9f2b99fb1b47751e6aab9c3951d3307d6?authuser=0&hl=en u may want to join
<zyga> so what was happening with the android demo?
<zyga> did it work?
<ogra-nx7> yes
<zyga> cool, looking forward to the movie after the live recording then
<yofel> hi, just to make sure I understood things right:
<yofel> when I upload a package I don't need to upload to raring-proposed, but to raring, and launchpad will move the package to raring-proposed and tell me it's been accepted/rejected in raring-proposed?
<micahg> yofel: yes, that sounds right (syncs have to go to -proposed though)
<yofel> thanks
<siretart> micahg: what do you think about uploading libav 9 to raring this week?
<ScottK> yofel: The trick is if you run syncpackage, that may need to point at proposed.
<yofel> ScottK: I can live with that
<ogra-nx7> seb128, jasoncwarner_ https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-r-rebuild-gl-games-for-gles
<seb128_> ogra-nx7, thanks
<Andy80> hi all
<Andy80> following this howto https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Python I'm trying the command: dh_make -c gpl -s -b -f ../terminator_0.14.tar.gz, but I get an error: Unknown option: b
<Andy80> any idea?
<zyga> will there be a live stream during the plenary sessions after lunch?
<zyga> hey, does anyone know if there are going to be streaming the afternoon plenaries as well?
<ScottK> Is there anyone at UDS from Xubuntu/Ubuntu Studio?
<astraljava> ScottK: knome from Xubuntu, ailo from Studio.
<johey> #ubuntu is too noicy, so please excuse my offtopic question. I am having trouble with apt. I'm trying to setup a http proxy to redirect to official ubuntu repos. It works fine on http, but if I set the proxy to listen on https, apt-get update works fine ONCE, but the next time it gives 404 on packages files.
<johey> Removing /var/lib/apt/lists/* solves the problem and let me update once more.
<infinity> johey: Why would you want to proxy the Ubuntu archive over https?
<johey> (The packages files does not exist, so the 404 is correct, but it should not request it. Only the packages.gz exists.)
<johey> infinity: Request from our clients. They won't open a non-encrypted connection.
<infinity> johey: Anyhow.  Not sure what your actual issue might be, and it's definitely off-topic for here.  Still seems like an odd requirement to be meeting in the first place, since you're proxying an untrusted connection to a trusted one.
<johey> infinity: It is just step one. We're setting up an apt-cacher when this is sorted out.
<infinity> johey: Which is still proxying untrusted connections to trusted...
<johey> infinity: But I would say this is an apt bug, or at least a bad behavior.
<infinity> (Not that the archive is untrusted, but it's verified by apt at the Release.gpg level, not at the https level)
<vibhav> Since it is offtopic, dont disturb the devels, let them watch what pitti is saying :P
<johey> infinity: Yes, the setup might sound odd, but it should be doable anyhow... If this is not the right channel for discussing potential apt bugs, then can you please suggest me a more suitable forum?
<vibhav> !forums | johey
<ubottu> johey: The Ubuntu forums can be found at http://www.ubuntuforums.org. Kubuntu Forums are found at http://www.kubuntuforums.net. There is also a channel on freenode IRC #ubuntuforums
<infinity> johey: If you're sure it's an apt bug, file a bug with reproduction steps to show how you're hitting it.
<JoeBlacken> Hi, is there any disk encryption tool/library with LGPL, MIT, or BSD license that works with Ubuntu?
<cjwatson> vibhav: There's no real point in discussing apt bugs on the forums.  The relevant developers are very unlikely to read it.
<johey> I don't mean web forums specifically. More like an IRC channel with people to discuss it, in order to find out if it is a bug or not.
<johey> If it turns out to be a bug, I will make a report for sure.
<menace> please speak a little bit louder :) thx!
<menace> wups, wrong channel
<YokoZar> pitti: "Packages which have autopkgtest enabled will have their tests run whenever they get uploaded or any of their reverse-dependencies change."  <-- am I reading that right or should it read "dependencies"?
<tsdgeos> YokoZar: no, he means reverse-dependencies, i.e. if you upload glib it'll run gtk tests to make sure new glib does not break existing gtk
<cjwatson> YokoZar,tsdgeos: it should actually be dependencies - tsdgeos' description of the actual effects is correct, but think about the semantics carefully :)
<cjwatson> in "their reverse-dependencies", the antecedent is the packages with tests, not the packages that were changed
<YokoZar> cjwatson: so in other words if I make a very expensive test and attach it to libc6 it'll run all the time and slow down the test rig :D
<YokoZar> Or wait, no, nevermind
<YokoZar> if I make an expensive test to a package that depends on everything that'll happen.
<cjwatson> Like we said somewhere - if we get to the point where this is a problem, that will be a great problem to have
<cjwatson> And then we can worry about filtering
<anadon> hey, I tried to install unity from scratch over the weekend, and I ran into a compile error with 'nux'.  The ends I'm hoping for is to run unity with a wayland backend.  suggestions to fix the compile error, and/or achieve the ends?  Note, this is from a base install of arch.
<armbar> Folks, just upgraded to quantal, got problems trying to install swi-prolog. Is this the right venue to ask for help?
<anadon> nope, that's #ubuntu
<armbar> got it thanks
<peaceZ> hello all
<peaceZ> i am programing a utility to dump the rom of laptops's batteries and to flash in declared dead ones, to disable the programmed obsolescence counter
<peaceZ> i would need to find some documentations , a kind of list of batteries using BQ2040 BQ2042 BQ 2092 microcontroller
<peaceZ> someone can helps me about it a bit ?
<peaceZ> most of laptops and mobile phones batteries are dead by pure wish of the industry only, because the electronic control decide do disable the charge dunction on much used batteries, many manual tests on electronics boards using an interface has been successfull but i can etablish now with the battery port it is possible to flash directly the micro-controler
<mahdy> jml: hi
<mahdy> jml: how can i user undistract-me with zsh ??
<peaceZ> au fait je vais crÃ©er une nouvelle page dans le wiki sur le control Ã©lectronique des batterie beaucoup de gens ignorent encore le fonctionnement d'une batterie
<peaceZ> sorry mistake
<mlankhorst> at the risk of blowing up your battery :/
<Chipzz> peaceZ: this channel is oriented towards the development OF ubuntu, not ON ubuntu (cfr topic). I think it's unlikely you'll find the expertise you seek here
<orogor> hi
<orogor> i upgraded to 12.10 and i encountered an issue can we see this here?
<orogor> apprently a boot script has some issue , maybe the fancontrol one
<orogor> and the login process get stuck , ctrl-alt-f6 and used startx to open xchat and come here
<maxb> orogor: You'll find #ubuntu more receptive to general help requests and #ubuntu-bugs more receptive for assistance in crafting good bug reports. This is very much a pure development channel.
#ubuntu-devel 2012-10-30
<alkisg> Hi, `top`, `xrestop` etc use ncurses. I think ncurses has problems with utf8 chars, and I'm not sure if it's related to how it's compiled in Ubuntu.
<alkisg> For example, this simple program: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1317120/
<alkisg> Produces this output: Bad string: ï¿½~]Î±Î¹, Good string: Î³ÎµÎ¹Î±
<alkisg> Or is this by design, and these tools don't support utf8, and they should be fixed to use libncursesw5 etc?
<alkisg> Btw, htop works just fine
<jalcine> alkisg: might be the lack of the use of libncursesw5
<alkisg> jalcine: I tried using libncursesw5 in my example program, and failed there as well
<jalcine> odd.
<alkisg> #include <ncursesw/ncurses.h>, gcc -lncursesw
<alkisg> I don't know if my examples, and the top/xrestop etc programs do something wrong...
<alkisg> Hmmm `watch` had the same problem, but has been solved: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=240989
<ubottu> Debian bug 240989 in procps "procps: watch doesn't handle UTF-8 or VT100 line-drawing characters properly" [Normal,Fixed]
<alkisg> That probably means that I need to file bugs in debian in all the affected packages...
<Chipzz> anyone here has any experience with or recommendations for packaging vim plugins?
<Chipzz> aha http://pkg-vim.alioth.debian.org/vim-policy.html/
<barry> stgraber, could you rescore https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-rebuilds/+archive/py3.3/+build/3942297 ?
<stgraber> barry: sure
<barry> stgraber, thanks!
<stgraber> done
<pitti> YokoZar: if I did say it like that, it was wrong; I meant "for an upload we run that package's tests and all tests of its reverse depends"
<OdyX> pitti: you there? I've been reviewing cups-1.6.1 packaging and I think we should bump the libcupsimage soname to 2debian1 or something, upstream drops symbols from 1.4.0.
<OdyX> pitti: hrm. This might get solved by depending on the correct minimum version of libcupsfilters1. I'll do that instead, looks less intrusive.
<vibhav> If a package has Debconf translations in a new upload, would merging it make sense?
<geser> the only changes are just translations?
<vibhav> geser: yes
<geser> I'd probably only merge it if was really bored and pick an other package needing a merge otherwise
<alexbligh1> Hi. I have a package foo, the previous version of which depended on a package bar. The new version of foo does the same job as bar, and bar should not really be installed with it. In the debian/control file for the new version of foo, should I use Provides: bar or Conflicts: bar or both?
<geser> alexbligh1: more like Replaces and Breaks, see the Debian policy for how to replace a package
<sivang> goodness, has nobody written something to replace taleo? :/
<sivang> err, wrong channel , sorry.
<alexbligh1> Earlier I asked: I have a package foo, the previous version of which depended on a package bar. The new version of foo does the same job as bar, and bar should not really be installed with it. In the debian/control file for the new version of foo, should I use Provides: bar or Conflicts: bar or both?
<alexbligh1> geser, you said 'Replaces' and 'Breaks'
<alexbligh1> but http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html says 'Replaces' and 'Breaks' is where a package overwrites files provided by another.
<alexbligh1> that isn't the case here.
<alexbligh1> (7.6.1)
<alexbligh1> Under 7.6.2 it suggests 'Provides:' 'Conflicts' and 'Replaces', but I don't know whether that is a great plan if foo previously depended on bar.
<nthykier> alexbligh1: it sounds like you want Â§7.6.2 (i.e. Provides: bar, Conflicts: bar and Replaces: bar)
<alexbligh1> All I want to do is ensure that when the new 'foo' is installed, 'bar' (which foo previously depended on) is removed. Ensuring it is purged (conffiles removed) woud be a bonys
<alexbligh1> bonus
<alexbligh1> nthykier, and that is safe if foo previously depended upon bar?
<micahg> alexbligh1: is bar shipped in the same source?
<nthykier> alexbligh1: I believe it is
<alexbligh1> micahg, they were both in repo X. User changes to repo Y, does 'aptitude update', 'aptitude upgrade'.
<alexbligh1> repo Y just has the (new) foo.
<micahg> alexbligh1: that wasn't my question
<alexbligh1> nthykier, thanks
<alexbligh1> micahg, source package? no.
<alexbligh1> I'm under control of the source packaging though, but the old versions of foo and bar are in the wild.
<micahg> alexbligh1: so, if it's similar functionality, you'll want to look at policy 7.4 and 7.5 and possibly do Conflicts/Replaces/Provides, just keep in mind that update-manager isn't happy with conflicts
<mahdy> jml: ping
<jml> mahdy: what's up?
<mahdy> jml: hi , i have a question about undistract me
<micahg> alexbligh1: if it was in the same source, I would've suggested a transitional package, but that's so nice if it's someone else's package
<jml> mahdy: sure. what's the question?
<alexbligh1> micahg, thanks
<micahg> *not so nice
<mahdy> jml: i want use undistract-me with zsh , but seems it is for bash only
<jml> mahdy: that's right.
<mahdy> jml: can you port it for zsh too ?
<jml> mahdy: the most interesting bit of undistract-me is hacking around bash's lack of pre-command hooks.
<mahdy> jml: zsh dosnt have this feature ?
<jml> mahdy: I couldn't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure that it does.
<jml> mahdy: and that making undistract-me work for zsh would be easier than for bash.
<mahdy> jml: well , i want to port it to bash
<mahdy> jml: do you have any repository ?
<jml> mahdy: you mean zsh, right?
<mahdy> jml: yes yes , sry , typo
<jml> mahdy: yes. it's on Launchpad. https://code.launchpad.net/undistract-me
<mahdy> jml: thank you , im working on it
<geser> alexbligh1: why not just simply drop the dependency on bar and let the auto-remove feature clean it up?
<alexbligh1> geser, it doesn't seem to remove it (for reasons unknown).
<alexbligh1> Possibly because I simplified the config. It's actually A which depends on B which depends on C and D which are installed. D's functionality is replaced by C and should be left around. It's A that's actually 'installed'. Updating then appears not to remove D.
<jml> mahdy: cool. good luck.
<geser> alexbligh1: is there any reason to remove D (does it cause problems) or just for clean-up?
<geser> is there anything else that might depend on D?
<alexbligh1> geser, yes, it causes problems. No, there is nothing else that might depend on D.
<geser> in that case a Conflicts seems to be right
<alexbligh1> geser, thanks. So Provides: Replaces: + Conflicts:.
#ubuntu-devel 2012-10-31
<jbrooks> Hi everyone, I set up a launchpad repo to enable automatic building of a package in my ppa. How do I take that bzr repo and build locally?
<jbrooks> Would #ubuntu-app-devel be a more appropriate room?
<darkxst> we seem to have an issue with multiarch not being enabled properly on ubuntu gnome remix, where is this configured?
<darkxst> tried 'dpkg --add-architecture i386' but still broken ;(
<darkxst> apt-get update is only picking up i386 packages for ppa. and ddebs.
<pitti> OdyX: yeah, I agree; changing soname from upstream is pretty much a no-go, as you'll break compatibility to all those third-party printer filters/drivers out there
<pitti> OdyX: thanks!
<OdyX> pitti: you want to check the git repository.
<OdyX> pitti: I made a sh**load of tiny changes now, it looks much cleaner to me now and I plan to upload it to experimental sometimes tomorrow.
<OdyX> pitti: including moving to dh9
<hyperair> darkxst: there's an ubuntu gnome remix?
<darkxst> hyperair, yes
<darkxst> hyperair, join #ubuntu-gnome
<hyperair> is that official?
<darkxst> not yet, but hopefully it will be eventually, atleast that is the plan
<hyperair> i see
<hyperair> the name ubuntu is trademarked, iirc.
<hyperair> so if it's not official i don't think you can use that name
<jbicha> hyperair: that's not really true http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
<hyperair> oh i see
<hyperair> nice
<doko> barry: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/image-sig/2012-October/007059.html
<doko> xnox,
<doko> barry: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/image-sig/2012-October/007059.html
<micahg> cjwatson: FYI, I think my sync e-mails are still being moderated
<tjaalton> is main/universe merge going to happen for raring? if yes, does it allow 'maintained' packages to build-depend on non-maintained packages (to enable some features)?
<micahg> tjaalton: well, any package from Debian is maintained and some Ubuntu specific universe packages are maintained as well, but to answer your question, the idea would be to allow former main packages to build depend on former universe packages assuming it doesn't need a runtime dependency (not sure if it's happening this cycle or not)
<tjaalton> micahg: ahh, ok
<tsdgeos> is there an easy way to get all the packages that are included in the 12.10 iso that get installed by default?
<tjaalton> micahg: right, I meant "supported", not "maintained" :)
<janimo> stgraber, do the config options listed here still cover all that is required for LXC support? http://lxc.teegra.net/#_configuration_options
<janimo> stgraber, are there features required for LXC that may not be in 3.1 (the kernel used on the nexus7) ?
<stgraber> janimo: looks about right. lxc ships with a test tool called lxc-checkconfig, I usually just run that against a kernel config and figure out what's missing
<xnox>  mpt: ivanka: ev: do you have a link to design wire frames from mpt with respect to boot options / recovery /system menu or something
<mpt> xnox, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StartupSettings
<ivanka> xnox: which ones?
<ivanka> oops - sorry mpt
<ivanka> xnox: mpt :-) over to you
<hallyn> slangasek: i haven't tested, but it looks like http://paste.ubuntu.com/1320497/ in domain .xml should let you specify the ovmf bios
<hallyn> so perhaps we only need virt-manager to set that correctly, and no libvirt changes
<Laney> ..
<Laney> oops
<slangasek> hallyn: oh, that seems so obvious :)
<slangasek> I should try to test that... won't get to it today however
<slangasek> hallyn: I lied; tested, I still get a BIOS boot
<slangasek> hallyn: so that doesn't seem to work
<slangasek> hallyn: confirmed that it's not passed to qemu (quantal version)
<hallyn> slangasek: thanks!  that turns that from a feature request into a bug :)
<slangasek> hallyn: haha - ok, do you need me to file it?
<hallyn> slangasek: nah, i'll do it later.  thanks
<slangasek> ok, ta :)
<theadmin> Ok, so I wanted to check out quickly. I do a "quickly create ubuntu-application blah", that goes fine, then after I "cd blah" and run "quickly design", glade segfaults :( Any help?
<OdyX> pitti: damn. The build succeeds here (including tests), but not in sbuild... :/
<Debolaz> Hrmm, empathy doesnt show the message counter in the launcher in 12.10.
<Debolaz> As far as I can tell, its related to some library update, but I cant see anything about when its supposed to be fixed.
<Debolaz> Anyone know whats the status on that?
<dobey> if there's a bug filed already, it's probably best to ask on there about its status
<Debolaz> Cant find any bug specifically about it.
<Debolaz> Though at least two other people have mentioned it on askubuntu.
<Debolaz> http://askubuntu.com/questions/206454/12-10-unity-counter-badges-dont-appear
<Logan_> cjwatson: What does the raring-proposed transition implicate for UDD? (and for all of my pending merge requests: http://code.launchpad.net/~logan )
<Logan_> micahg: ^
<micahg> Logan_: idk if UDD is even importing everything right now, there could be issues where something is in --proposed and not migrating which wouldn't be reflected in the release pocket branch
<Logan_> micahg: okay - but what does that mean in terms of all merge requests? should they be against raring-proposed instead? what if that branch doesn't exist?
<Logan_> (so many questions :P )
 * micahg would like to say use debdiffs, but I'm not sure what the UDD way forward is
<Logan_> I'll probably have to wait until the dust settles from UDS for a definitive answer
<Logan_> wish I were there :/ (but school comes first, of course)
<Debolaz> I reported it here now: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/empathy/+bug/1073628
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1073628 in empathy (Ubuntu) "Empathy doesnt show message counter in launcher" [Undecided,New]
<wookey> I've just spent 10 mins failing toi find out the names/networks of the UDS IRC chanels
<wookey> where are they written down?
<jderose> On Raring, anyone having trouble with dh_sphinxdoc? this is the error:
<jderose> dh_sphinxdoc: error: unknown JavaScript code: debian/python3-skein-doc/usr/share/doc/python3-skein-doc/html/_static/searchtools.js
<[reed]> so, how do I get somebody to look at the upload queue for precise-proposed and review my package? :)
<Logan_> james_w: Are you around?
<james_w> hi Logan_
<EtgarDizz> can anyone here help with unity lenses and scopes?
<dobey> EtgarDizz: #ubuntu-unity might be a better channel for that
<EtgarDizz> i tried there as well... no answer :(
<dobey> well, most of the unity developers are at UDS, and it's currently ~9pm where they are, so they're probably a bit busy with dinner/beer right now
<EtgarDizz> :D gotcha
<Logan_> james_w: I asked cjwatson about this earlier, and he wasn't too sure: What does the raring-proposed transition implicate for UDD? (and for all of my pending merge requests: http://code.launchpad.net/~logan )
<Logan_> I understand that you are one of the main UDD guys, so I was wondering if you'd have an answer
<james_w> Logan_, I'm not sure about that either
<james_w> I'm not sure how it should work
<Logan_> because, hypothetically, there should probably be merge proposals against the raring-proposed branch
<Logan_> but that only exists when the maintainer has uploaded something to the repo
<Logan_> (with the latest changes)
<james_w> yeah
<dobey> Logan_: i would suspect it would work the same way it always has. you propose to the distro packaging branch, and the sponsor deals with the upload
<Logan_> but, with full UDD, isn't it just merged to the target branch with bar merge and not uploaded separately?
<Logan_> *bzr
<Logan_> I could be understanding this incorrectly - I've never maintained a package in Ubuntu myself, just improved others through UDD
<dobey> it depends on the package
<dobey> generally teams that do that, maintain the source package branch separately; such as the ~ubuntu-desktop branches for example
<Logan_> ok
<dobey> i don't know if the things you have branches proposed for are generally handled that way or not, though
<dobey> though it should be fairly obvious from branch history
<lifeless> cjwatson: if you had any thoughts on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1073731 that would be cool, but no rush - I've just supplied the needed modules manually to workaround it.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1073731 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grube-probe on new sfdisk created partition on nbd0 returns nothing" [Undecided,New]
#ubuntu-devel 2012-11-01
<ev> pitti: are the crash-digger retracers having difficulty with ddebs.u.c? We're getting size mismatches on the Daisy retracers
<ev> pitti: ps. can you renew my membership in apport-hackers?
<slangasek> xnox, ogra_: OOI, why do we need make_ext4fs?  shouldn't it be possible to generate these using the standard tools?
<vibhav> xnox: ping?
<vibhav> xnox: Anyways, what does "50 shades of python mean?" :)
<hallyn> jdstrand: hey do you know where mdeslaur is?
<Riddell> ping jasoncwarner_ Daviey
<Riddell> product managers meeting
<janimo> slangasek, the ones flashed by fastboot are not proper ext4 filesystems, but some sparse representations of them
<janimo> so they do not take up as much as the actual partition size
<cjwatson> ogra_: I upgraded my nexus7 to raring (after pinning the ubuntu-nexus7 PPA) and found that Unity failed to start because the runtime linker failed to find libnvwsi.so for /usr/lib/nux/unity_support_test, even though /usr/lib/nvidia-tegra still seems to be in ld.conf.d and that library is there.  I worked around it for now by symlinking that library into /usr/lib/arm-linux-gnueabihf/, but I assume that's wrong.  Is this known?
<cjwatson> (There was also an onboard regression with python3.3, and I just uploaded a backport of the upstream fix for that)
<barry> stgraber, https://launchpad.net/~pythoneers/+archive/py33exp/+build/3947999
<barry> stgraber, https://launchpad.net/~pythoneers/+archive/py33exp/+build/3948025
<stgraber> barry: done
<barry> stgraber, thanks!
<Laney> anyone near barry?
<Laney> fancy asking him if I can borrow his spare macbook charger for the evening/night? :-)
<Laney> #talkingaboutudsinubuntudevel
<slangasek> janimo: ok; but we also have ext2simg, why wouldn't we use that to post-process a normal filesystem instead of using a different tool for the fs creation?
<ogra-nx7> slangasek, we do ?
<slangasek> ogra-nx7: er, you can find it at the same place as make_ext4fs, can't you? :)
<slangasek> ogra-nx7, janimo: I'm saying I would prefer, from an obsessively foundation-y perspective, to be able to use the standard mkfs.ext4 and post-process rather than using a separate implementation of the filesystem creation bits
<ogra-nx7> slangasek, ah, i though you referred to something existing inubuntu
 * ogra-nx7 is missin backlog
<barry> Laney, ping
<Laney> ello
<barry> i have my spare charger up in my room.  as long as i can get it back before 9am tomorrow, you can borrow it :)
<Laney> cheers
<barry> meet me in the hall after the plenary?
<Laney> i'll meet you downstairs from the auditorium after this?
<Laney> :-)
<barry> +1 :)
<ogra-nx7> slangasek, i would prefer to use the tool thats guaranteed to work with fastboot, if google makes changes to fastboot itself the tool will reflect them in a new version as well
<slangasek> ogra-nx7: you think ext2simg isn't guaranteed to work with fastboot?
<ogra-nx7> i havent tried it, assumingly it will also get the changes indeed, but i expect it to heavily modify the fs (adding inodes to support the bigger fs size etc)
<ogra-nx7> i'll take a look when i'm home on sunday
<slangasek> ogra-nx7: ok, cool :)
<ogra-nx7> aha
 * ogra-nx7 just took a quick look
<ogra-nx7> seems it would need the full sized image and then strips off stuff
<ogra-nx7> that means we need to create 8/16/32G images and shrink them afterwards with ext2simg
<ogra-nx7> quite diskspace demanding
<slangasek> well, yes, that's implied
<slangasek> but creating an 8GB image doesn't actually take 8GB of disk either
<slangasek> because the filesystem you're creating it on supports sparse files
<ogra-nx7> but yeah, the code looks a lot simpler
<slangasek> hallyn: ah, no bug in libvirt; I just didn't have xmlns:qemu declared, figured it out by comparing with jk's setup
<Debolaz> Who is responsible for the development of empathy? Where can I look up things like emails for that?
<dobey> Debolaz: gnome.org
<psusi> cjwatson: Robert Collins filed a bug against grub2 because grub-probe doesn't understand /dev/nbd0.. my first thought was that this is to be expected since nbt isn't bios accessible so grub won't assign it an (hdX) identifier... but now that I think about it, I don't see a reason not to make it do so, do you?
<psusi> so now I'm thining of changing the but report to a wishlist feature request for grub to go ahead and assign an (hdX) number to nbd devices
<Debolaz> dobey: Hrmm.... Why do I get the feeling going to them will be sticking my hand into a hornets nest... Hehe.
<skypce> hello, i need help for run unity-2d-panel standalone, i have troubles with logout and shutdown (it wait 30 or more seconds) and reboot, i have the source code of unity-2-panel but i dont know what file control it?
#ubuntu-devel 2012-11-02
<skypce> hello
<mitya57> Hi doko, I've just attached a debdiff to bug 1070336.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1070336 in sphinx (Ubuntu) "Sphinx FTBFS in raring (again)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1070336
<mitya57> Will now look at docutils dep-8 tests failures (it looks like a bug in python actually)
<mlankhorst>   /12
<mlankhorst> woops
<hyperair> has anyone successfully mk-sbuild'd a raring schroot?
<hyperair> i can't seem to
<tumbleweed> you have a debootstrap that knowws about raring?
<hyperair> tumbleweed: yeah well it's just ln -s gutsy /usr/share/debootstrap/scripts/raring
<hyperair> tumbleweed: turns out it was apt-cacher-ng being broken as usual
<tumbleweed> lovely :/
<hyperair> hmm, with the new -proposed changes, do build-deps get resolved from -proposed or from non -proposed?
<tumbleweed> from -proposed
<hyperair> okay
<hyperair> then i'll amend my chroot appropriately
<tumbleweed> I got half way through getting mk-sbuild to add -proposed, but never committed it...
<tumbleweed> it'll be in the next upload
<hyperair> okay great
<siretart> hyperair: I mk-sbuild'ed my raring chroot only yesterday. as you've noticed, it required the extra symlink, but otherwise went fine
<siretart> btw, I would like to upload libav 9~beta2-1 early this cycle. I have a merged package almost ready, but wanted to hear your opinions on that, given that it is not in unstable, has a large number of reverse dependencies but we really want to have it in raring (e.g., gst-libav really wants it)
<hyperair> siretart: yeah well i found out it was apt-cacher-ng screwing up as usual
<siretart> hyperair: have you looked at squid-deb-proxy? it works reasonably well at home for me
<hyperair> siretart: no actuallly
<hyperair> siretart: how hard is it to setup?
<siretart> just apt-get install it. it installs a custom squid proxy that listens on a seperate port
<siretart> on the client side, you install the client package, which picks up the proxy via avahi, or you configure the http proxy manually. your choice.
<siretart> oh, and you'll possibly want to review/edit the access and mirror white and blacklists
<siretart> for some reason, i think PPAs are not cached
<janimo> slangasek, what you say makes perfect sense. I also overlooked the existence of the ext2simg tool. So +1 for using regular mkfs.ext4
<skypce> hello
<skypce> hello guys, a problem with irqs can do the mouse slow after resume?
<skypce> hello guys, a problem with irqs can do the mouse slow after resume?
<Deluxo> Hi! Can any one help me with python script I'm writing at the moment. I need to specify mime-type in gtk.textbuffer.serialize
<Deluxo> i have no clue what arguments are of serialize
<lfaraone> Laney: I didn't get a bill from HP, did you?
<lfaraone> (I radically reduced my usage in case they were still billing, but my billing history shows a charges with a positive, a payment with zero, and a balance due of zero.
#ubuntu-devel 2012-11-03
<persia> So, I'm out of practice.  Is there a convenient way to discover all my workitems now that UDS is complete?
<MestreLion> I'm creating very simple, "hello world" style project, for learning purposes. I'd like to use git, git-buildpackage, pristine-tar, etc. All packaging tutorials assume I will have a tarball to start, so what is the best way, using those tools, to create my 1.0 tarball?
<MestreLion> should my Makefile do that in a "dist" target, or it is better to use some git-related tools for that?
<MestreLion> I'm creating very simple, "hello world" style project, for learning purposes. I'd like to use git, git-buildpackage, pristine-tar, etc. All packaging tutorials assume I will have a tarball to start, so what is the best way, using those tools, to create my 1.0 tarball? should my Makefile do that in a "dist" target, or it is better to use some git-related tools for that?
<MestreLion> oops, sorry for repost
<persia> MestreLion: I don't know that workflow particularly well, but I'd suggest tagging your release in git, and then using git-archive to generate the tarball.  Someone with more experience doing this may have better suggestions.  You may find it convenient to put some of the commands to make this happen in your dist target, to ensure the solution you have selected is well documented and repeatable.
<MestreLion> persia: is it ok to use git-archive in a Makefile?
<persia> If you're willing to assert that it is required to build the source artefact, which means that anyone generating the artifact must have it installed.
<persia> I wouldn't recommend having it required for the default target, or any build targets, because some folk (including Ubuntu) prefer to build with no network access.
<persia> You might also want to try asking in different fora: lots of folks usually here are recovering from UDS last week, and many typically consume tarballs, rather than generating them.
<MestreLion> ok persia, thanks :)
<cariveri> Hi there. How would I start to develope on ubuntu, say the unity bar/interface ?
<cariveri> Alright. found it myself. thanks any way. keep it up!
<lfaraone>  /msg laney I didn't get an invoice for an amohnt this month, did you?
 * Laney giggles
<Laney> lfaraone: no, seems not
<ajmitch> heh
<lfaraone> Oops.
<lfaraone> Welllllll nothing private, that's what I sent you in the channel earlier :P
<lfaraone> Should we assume they just are doing this until they tell us otherwise?
<Laney> you'll run the risk of being surprised with a bill
 * ajmitch never likes to be surprised with those
<slangasek> cjwatson: hey, so I'm working on kernel autoremoval and I find that the kernel metapackages are all in section 'metapackages'... which means all their direct dependencies are marked as not-for-autoremoval.  This is obviously the wrong result here, but I'm wondering if you know any reason why the kernel packages were in metapackages?
#ubuntu-devel 2012-11-04
<cjwatson> slangasek: I can't think of one.  Check the kernel source control file before you start changing overrides, though; if it says metapackages there, then we need to get that changed since those often leak into the archive for one reason or another; and if that's the case there might also be a hint in the associated changelog
<cjwatson> It may have been a misunderstanding of semantics ...
<slangasek> cjwatson: yeah, checked the changelog of linux-meta and didn't find anything; I mentioned it to ogasawara this morning when I spotted the issue, and am following up with a bug report
<cjwatson> I saw a bare statement there of the change, but nothing more useful than that
<cjwatson> (search for "metapackage" rather than "metapackages")
<slangasek> ah
<slangasek> well, first mention is from 2012 and is just about moving the headers + powerpc packages to match the rest
<cjwatson> git isn't useful here, as the change goes back to when the relevant files were checked in AFAICS
<ScottK> metapackages didn't always mark  not-for-autoremoval did it?
<ScottK> I have a vague recollection that it came a bit later, so maybe it didn't matter when it was done.
<cjwatson> It's been a while, but my memory is that it was introduced with that specific purpose
<ScottK> Could be.
<cjwatson> ha, I made the change
<cjwatson> bug 114662
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 114662 in linux-meta (Ubuntu) "move to Section: metapackages" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/114662
<cjwatson> rationale then was that metapackages had different Recommends handling, so maybe you're right and *that* was the original purpose
<cjwatson> that's clearly no longer relevant
<slangasek> hmm :)
<slangasek> oh, fwiw we also have some distinctly broken handling of oldlibs packages, which are being treated the same as metapackages and causing random libs to be marked 'manual' :/
<slangasek> ok, fixing up some overrides
<infinity> slangasek: Oh, did you take over the autoremoval thing from me?
<slangasek> infinity: yes, Patty's /boot is full now and needs attending ;)
<infinity> *smirk*
<infinity> Kay.
<NotACellist> I've read two articles that have gotten me psyched for Ubuntu on tablets. Is there a mailing list or developer group I can read about this?
<chilicuil> doesn anyone knows if ground control is still in development? https://launchpad.net/groundcontrol ?
<vibhav> Any idea why did this happen: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/122007303/buildlog_ubuntu-raring-armel.blackbox_0.70.1-13ubuntu1_CHROOTWAIT.txt.gz
<xnox> persia: once the workitems are all in launchpad you should see them on the status.ubuntu.com website....
<wmp> hello
<wmp> i build my own package with config to nginx, vsftpd and other, and when i try to install this i have error: trying to overwrite '/etc/logrotate.d/nginx', which is also in package nginx-common 1.1.19-1ubuntu0.1
<wmp> what i can do with this?
<siretart> wmp: I don't think this is the right channel to discuss this. but as a hint, you might find http://debathena.mit.edu/config-packages/ imensly useful.
<wmp> siretart: thank
<NotACellist> I've read two articles that have gotten me psyched for Ubuntu on tablets. Is there a mailing list or developer group I can read about this?
<persia> xnox: Thanks: that was precisely what I sought.
<tumbleweed> persia: welcome back to Ubuntu IRC channels
 * persia hasn't quite managed the 's' yet, but expects to take care of that this week :)
<tumbleweed> :)
<mlankhorst> morning
<chilicuil> good morning
#ubuntu-devel 2013-10-28
<Noskcaj> Is there any point trying to fix some of quickly's bugs since it's pretty much EOL
<pitti> Good morning
<jibel> pitti, some packages failed to install in adt VMs during latest provisioning. I reprovisioned them.
<jibel> pitti, I'll restart the tests that failed once it is done.
<pitti> jibel: thanks; I've not gone through all of them yet (see #u-quality), but started
<pitti> jibel: there's a couple of new packages there which geuinnely fail
<pitti> jibel: oh, was visp one of those? that doesn't have an obvious failure
<jibel> pitti, visp, quagga and gtkada
<pitti> good, thanks; deleting those mails then
<jibel> pitti, that's also a case where status in britney stays 'running' forever. Because the test fails early (like VM or test session fails to start), no results is generated.
<jibel> -s
<pitti> jibel: ah, git uninstallability is also on http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/trusty-proposed_probs.html
<pitti> problem is that https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/git/1:1.8.4.1-1 built only on amd64
<pitti> tests fail on the othhers
<pitti> debian bug 727226
<ubottu> Debian bug 727226 in src:git "git tests fail on several architectures" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/727226
<pitti> seems we should perhaps just remove that version from trusty-proposed, and wait for a fix from Debian?
<pitti> cjwatson: ^ would you agree that this is a sensible approach? (unless someone on the Ubuntu side fancies fixing this)
<cjwatson> pitti: Could you check whether anything has grown versioned dependencies that would be broken by removing it?
<pitti> yes, doing
<pitti> cjwatson: checked all components, none
<cjwatson> pitti: and AIUI this is causing some autopkgtests to fail?  (for the removal message)
<pitti> cjwatson: yes, at least guilt
<cjwatson> pitti: ok, removed
<pitti> thanks
<pitti> cjwatson: I didn't actually mean that you should do it for me, I was more interested in your general opinion whether we should just remove broken stuff from -proposed if it's unlikely that we'll fix it on our side
<pitti> but I take this as a "yes" :)
<cjwatson> I'm not sure I hold that opinion in general, but in the case where it's having fallout I'd say probably
<cjwatson> as a general policy it worries me that it's hard to track
<pitti> cjwatson: heh, ironically it broke mercurial's tests, too (as they install git to verify git import)
<Fudge> cjwatson  I sit here, I read but still have a hard time catching on :D
<debfx> jodh: is it possible to run upstart services as a user with all its supplementary groups (without using wrappers like start-stop-daemon)?
<xnox> debfx: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/cookbook/#setuid
<xnox> debfx: http://upstart.ubuntu.com/cookbook/#setgid
<xnox> ?
<debfx> yeah I know about setuid but that just sets the primary group
<xnox> i see.
<xnox> debfx: i'm not aware of any other standard facility, apart from using sudo / start-stop-daemon / etc.
<xnox> doko: with gcc-4.8, how come it's libstdc++-4.8-dev, yet libstdc++6-4.8-dbg
<pitti> most packages don't put the soname into the -dev package for simplicity
<pitti> (-dev package name, I mean)
<jodh> debfx: you mean+need setgid I think.
<xnox> pitti: sure, but it used to be libstdc++6 across the board (including all -dev packages) so not sure if the rename is incomplete.
<debfx> jodh: setgid sets the primary group and leaves the supplementary group list empty, no?
<debfx> basically I want upstart to call initgroups() before execing or let me manually specify the supplementary groups.
<jodh> debfx: upstart does call initgroups.
<jodh> debfx: maybe you're using an older version that doesn't?
<debfx> possibly, tested it with precise
<debfx> ok, found it: https://code.launchpad.net/~stgraber/upstart/upstart-initgroups/+merge/136794
<darkxst> clutter-gst is completely broken in trusty right now it seems
<darkxst> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/155208131/buildlog_ubuntu-trusty-amd64.clutter-gst-2.0_2.0.8-1~trusty1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<darkxst> other builds just hang
<darkxst> although can't reproduce locally with pbuilder
<pitti> slangasek, stgraber, jibel: FYI, I renamed the BP to core-*, as per cjohnston's mail: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1311-lts-upgrade-testing
<brainwash> pitti: http://lpaste.net/94917 http://lpaste.net/94918 http://lpaste.net/94919
<brainwash> regarding the suspend/resume issue
<brainwash> some random log files, did my best to gather some information when the failure occurs
<pitti> brainwash: thanks! would you mind adding these to the bug, so that the information is at one place?
<pitti> brainwash: as for the first, I take it you didn't do https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingDBus to see the method calls as well? The log only has signals
<brainwash> oh, right.. forgot about this
<brainwash> there is no trace of this signal in the monitor log "SIGNAL EMISSION org.freedesktop.systemd1.Manager.JobRemoved()"
<brainwash> send by systemd-shim
<pitti> stgraber, slangasek: as discussed, I filed https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1311-ssd-trimming
<cjohnston> thanks pitti!
<tseliot> pitti: hi. You seem to be part of the lightdm. Does this mean you get to review merge requests?
<pitti> tseliot: I can review simple fixes, but I don't know the overall code; robert mainly added me to fix the apparmor profile
<tseliot> pitti: oh, ok. I have a two lines patch but it's a feature
<tseliot> stgraber: are you around?
<mbait> Hi there! I'd like to backport some package for Precise. I am using 'backportpackage' in a couple with PPA. The problem is the build is failed due to outdated dependencies. Is it possible to backport dependencies as well?
<melodie> hi
<melodie> I am seeking an information related to the txt.cfg in the isolinux directory, in a Desktop Live. This is related to the name for a remix. If someone has knownledge about it? (I browsed lots of docs on the web and I missed the one detail I need, so far)
<sladen> melodie: it's a while I had to poke one;  there are a series of label/menu/title lines;
<sladen> melodie: it should be possible to spot the text that you'd like to change, and alter it
<LLckfan2> I have an android tablet that I have put youtube app on. When I try to sign into youtubr it says an error occurred. Is there anything I can do to fix this? I did not get the app from Google Play as Google Play does not support my brand of tablet.
<melodie> hi sladen
<sladen> LLckfan2: Android?  This is #ubuntu-devel.  Ubuntu is a different operating system (though both Linux and Android use the Linux kernel for hardware drivers at the very base layer)
<melodie> I have changed just the name "Ubuntu" for the name of my remix, and the next three isos had a little issue: after changing the language to my language, the two first boot stanzas where still in English.
<melodie> this is what I try to find about. Where should I look ?
<sladen> melodie: is there an 'i18n.cfg', or similiarly named file somewhere around?
<melodie> sladen probably, I look
<sladen> melodie: also  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization#Modify_installer_behaviour_using_a_Preseed_file
<melodie> no there isn't
<melodie> should there be one?
<brainwash> pitti: I've uploaded the log files now, including dbus-monitor with 99-eavesdrop.conf enabled
<melodie> well in the latest lubuntu saucy isolinux there isn't one either
<brainwash> pitti: it really looks like some dbus connection issue
<sladen> melodie: is  http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/releases/13.10/beta-2/lubuntu-13.10-beta2-desktop-i386.iso  what you are starting with?
<melodie> sladen I have already read the link you are pointing me to
<melodie> I started with a Ubuntu Mini Remix 12.04 months ago and I often look into Lubuntu and Xubuntu isos to search about information, but I don't use them directly
<melodie> so after reading the link you pointed me to, it seems you think I want to customize for one language? This is not the case.
<melodie> and I can't build seed files, because I don't use a regular method, just Ubuntu Builder and the command line for things it doesn't do
<melodie> Only having "Ubuntu" in the txt.cfg file changed to "My_remix_name" would be interesting right now, and later I will start to work on getting into other details, such as a meta package
<melodie> I just don't understand why when I change the name there, 2 over the 5 boot stanzas stay in English.
<melodie> this is what I have:
<melodie> http://pastebin.fr/29250
<melodie> these are the txt files in the isolinux directory
<melodie> sladen I wonder if the i18n.cfg was not what is now po4a.cfg ?
<melodie> it contains the iso codes for the languages?
<sladen> melodie: there is normally base string in a configuration string; and then various translation files which contain the base string; and the translated replacement for each language
<sladen> melodie: this are normally .po files, yes; but I'm not sure how it works for syslinux/isolinux
<sladen> melodie: pitti or cjwatson may be able to remember off the top of their heads exactly how it is setup
<pitti> brainwash: hang on, might it be that most of the people who are reporting this are running not Unity or GNOME, but XFCE or KDE?
<sladen> melodie: the translations being in the  /isolinux/NN.cfg
<sladen> melodie: the translations being in the  /isolinux/NN.tr
<pitti> brainwash: I'm asking because gnome-settings-daemon inhibits logind's own handling of the lid
<pitti> brainwash: does this also happen if you run suspend from the menu instead of closing the lid?
<brainwash> pitti: I'm running xfce, but I don't use the lid to trigger suspend
<brainwash> only menu mostly
<brainwash> sometimes via direct dbus call
<melodie> sladen ok, but still how come 2 first strings stay untranslated and the three after do... this is bizarre
<brainwash> the strange thing is that it only happens occasionally, like 20-25% of all suspend/resume cycles
<pitti> brainwash: ok, then it's not that; thanks
<sladen> melodie: if you change a string;  but not the base string in a particular locale translation, then it will not match.  Without a match, the translation for that language can't be replaced
<brainwash> pitti: and it appears to me that different issues got mixed in the bug report, but maybe they are all related
<melodie> sladen ok I see. So until I know how to start from the sources the best I can do is leave it as is
<melodie> the NN.tr files are binaries so...
<melodie> needs sources and a compiling step :)
<sladen> melodie: po4a is "PO for All"
<melodie> oh ok
<brainwash> pitti: however, if systemd's actions don't get inhibited and the system suspends twice within a small time frame, things might fail also I guess
<melodie> sladen do you know if this is what I would need to start from? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/syslinux-themes-ubuntu
<melodie> or rather https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/syslinux ?
<cjwatson> melodie: The translations are in gfxboot-theme-ubuntu
<cjwatson> It's tedious that this has to be done per-flavour, but necessary in general due to the structure of natural language
<cjwatson> Not a real example but compare e.g. "an Ubuntu mirror" with "a Lubuntu mirror" in English
<melodie> hi cjwatson
<melodie> what is  gfxboot-theme-ubuntu ? I am looking into a syslinux-theme-ubuntu archive from https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+source/syslinux-themes-ubuntu : this is not what you refer to, is that right?
<melodie> a package maybe?
<cjwatson> It's a source package
<melodie> I seek for it, thank you
<sladen> melodie: apt-get source gfxboot-theme-ubuntu && cd /gfxboot-theme-ubuntu-*/po
<sladen> melodie: in eg. 'fr.po' there is  msgid "^Try Lubuntu without installing" <-> msgstr "^Essayer Lubuntu sans l'installer"
<melodie> sladen cjwatson I have the source package for the version I am working on now, I just wonder if there is a howto compile that once the strings changed? :)
<melodie> is is just ./configure && make or such?
<sladen> melodie: sudo apt-get build-dep gfxboot-theme-ubuntu && debuild  should work
<melodie> nice! I'll try that
<melodie> in the README it says how to add text, and how to remove text, is that also valid for replacing a string?
<slangasek> pitti: ack, thanks
<cjwatson> melodie: I usually do those replacements with some sed rune I make up on the spot
<melodie> I see :)
<melodie> how does the syslinux bootloader know which one of the versions will be booted, as in a NN.po file each flavor is provided?
<melodie> should a new block file be added in the po files?
<melodie> a new block text*
<melodie> that seems to lead to a larger job :)
<cjwatson> I generally add one per flavour, yes
<cjwatson> The PO files just include all known flavours
<cjwatson> And syslinux knows about it because its other configuration files are set up appropriately
<melodie> cjwatson ok
<melodie> I'll have to learn lots more about all this
<melodie> during the coming winter :)
<melodie> thank you very much
<melodie> and sladen thank you very much also
<melodie> I wonder what is still good from that page nowadays and what is not? (ie syslinux.cfg used to contain what txt.cfg does now): https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomizationFromScratch
<sladen> melodie: a really useful thing would be to keep track of your successes, and failures, and write-up some (more up to date) documentation as you go
<melodie> sladen unfortunately I don't have (at least so far) the knowledge for that. I didn't start from Scratch because when I started I just tried head into the doc and when arrived at the interesting page in the doc (something about diverting sysctl) I just got lost, not knowing how to understand what was after: was it to be used literally or adapted, I had no idea. Since then, I use ready to go scripts, the one I find working best for now being Ub
<melodie> untu Builder (a gambas gui) with Ubuntu Mini Remix as a start.
<melodie> else, I do take notes and put the files used and information on a web space
<sladen> melodie: you are acquiring the knowledge.  Write notes as you go, and it will be useful for you, and anyone working with you; but *also* useful for everything afterewards
<melodie> I might copy them to bitbucket or github later, for now it's here: http://meets.free.fr/Downloads/BentoVillageProject/
<melodie> not too messy, but will need to refine again later :)
<tseliot> slangasek: are you available to review/approve an upload (with a small diff) which should fix 2 SRUs?
<melodie> sladen I might learn more when I will dive into seeds for the preseed directory, I found a doc and some good pointers on the Edubuntu wiki yesterday. I would have questions about preseeds too. Are they used as well for building the isos as for updating at install time when the option is ticked in the installer?
<melodie> thanks for all, bye
<tseliot> stgraber: re-ping
<stgraber> tseliot: hi
<brainwash> pitti: the report is getting flooded with comments once again, just to clarify my comment, the entry is missing, because systemd-shim didn't print it https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/1184262/comments/58
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1184262 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "[logind] stuck in PrepareForSleep, causing network and other services to not resume" [High,Confirmed]
<brainwash> pitti: besides that, is any other log/debug informantion needed to understand the problem and identify the culprit?
<tseliot> slangasek: never mind
<psusi> slangasek: I'm looking at a bug report by a user saying he has no /dev/.blkid.tab... and I don't see how it *ever* works.  persistent-storage.rules always runs blkid -p, which prevents it from writing out the cache, so how does it ever get created?  Shouldn't that not have a -p there?
<dobey> sarnold, jdstrand: hi. do you guys know who would be best to chat with about creating an apparmor profile for tarmac? or more specifically, to prevent external processes spawned by tarmac from doing certain things
<sarnold> hi dobey :) I've never heard of 'tarmac' before. What is it? what does it do?
<dobey> sarnold: it's a tool for managing branch landing on launchpad
<sarnold> dobey: if tarmac uses the usual fork()+exec() method of starting processes, AppArmor's "child" profiles may be suitable: http://wiki.apparmor.net/index.php/QuickProfileLanguage#Child_profiles
<dobey> it uses the python subprocess module; so i presume that's standard enough
<sarnold> dobey: you -may- need to add something like /bin/bash ix,  to the tarmac profile if the python subprocess winds up shelling out to system(3) to execute programs; if it builds arguments as arrays and uses execve(2) directly, you may not need the /bin/bash ix, and just use the /path/to/helper Cx, rules
<dobey> sarnold: hrmm. does "profile * {}" work for that?
<sarnold> dobey: I don't think it would work as you'd hope -- if you want to allow tarmac to execute -anything- but just confine what those "anythings" are allowed to do, it might look something like this:
<sarnold> /usr/bin/tarmac {
<sarnold>   /usr/bin/* cx -> tarmac_child,
<sarnold>   profile tarmac_child {
<sarnold>     /path/to/launcpad/branches/** rw,
<sarnold>   }
<sarnold> }
<dobey> sarnold: it needs to run pretty much anything, as what it's doing is building a source tree and running the tests for it; and that can vary infinitely wildly across projects
<dobey> hmm
<dobey> sarnold: but it has to be a full path like /usr/bin? can it be "* cx -> tarmac_child" ?
<sarnold> dobey: so you'd want to add something like /**/ r, /** rm, /** ix, /path/to/allowed/writes** w,
<sarnold> dobey: it could be /** cx -> tarmac_child
<dobey> ok, maybe i can use apparmor to do this then
<sarnold> woo :)
<dobey> would rather use apparmor than a complex chroot setup
<dobey> sarnold: and /**/tarmac will work to match the tarmac script itself, regardless of the install path?
<sarnold> dobey: /**/ will only match directories; you'll also need /** for the files
<sarnold> (it's a bit confusing the first few times..)
<sarnold> dobey: I've got to run, I'll be back in ~two hours.. I hope this is a good enough start for you to get into some trouble :)
<dobey> sarnold: yeah, and there are plenty of existing profiles to look at
<dobey> sarnold: thanks. i'll probably ask you to review my profile :)
<sarnold> dobey: thanks! :) have fun
<Noskcaj> roaksoax, kirkland: Can one of you release testdrive? I think we've got enough fixes to warrant it
<Noskcaj> And do either of you have time to help with gtk3 and/or python3 porting?
<roaksoax> Noskcaj: saucy just openned a few days ago
<roaksoax> there's no immediate need to release until at least we have alpha one
<roaksoax> however, i'll be releaswing later on the week
<stgraber> s/saucy/trusty/
<Noskcaj> roaksoax, makes sense, thanks for the info
<roaksoax> s/suacy/trusty
<dobey> can i get someone to push rhythmbox-ubuntuone from precise-proposed to -updates? it's been in proposed for almost 5 months with no complaints on the bug report about it. and just noticed the verification tag was still -needed, but changed to -done now.
<ScottK> dobey: Done
<dobey> thanks ScottK
<ScottK> yw.
<dobey> ScottK: are you sru team btw? i have another favor to ask if so :)
<dobey> there's an ubuntu-sso-client in saucy unapproved queue, which is a critical bug fix, that we'd like to get through asap. i uploaded it on friday, but hasn't gotten reviewed yet
<ScottK> I'l take a look and if I'm reasonably comfortable with the diff, I'll accept it.  No promises.
<dobey> thanks. it's a small and obvious diff, so i'm confident :)
<ScottK> dobey: Accepted.
<dobey> ScottK: thanks again :)
<ScottK> yw again.
<cjwatson> jdstrand: your latest click-apparmor upload doesn't seem to be in lp:click-apparmor
<mdz> cjwatson, is google calendar telling the truth, that tech board is supposed to meet now?
<cjwatson> mdz: Sounds plausible-ish but I hadn't planned to turn up to future TB meetings
<cjwatson> mdz: It's 2100 in the UK if that's any help
<mdz> who would know for sure? there's no chair on the wiki, etc.
<mdz> oh hi pitti
<pitti> hey mdz, how are you?
<jdstrand> cjwatson: fixed. you keep pointing this out to me. perhaps I will learn some day...
<cjwatson> heh, thanks :)
<cjwatson> Of course I only notice when I want to propose a change
<mdz> pitti, good good
<mdz> pitti, going to be in the US anytime soon?
<pitti> mdz: not this year any more
<cjwatson> mdz: you going to be at the BAD meeting on Wed?
<mdz> cjwatson, didn't know about it, and have plans Wednesday evening
<cjwatson> ah, shame
<cjwatson> in Oakland this week
<mdz> I saw jonathan and asheesh last night though
<mdz> I didn't know they were having regular get togethers
<sergiusens> cjwatson, hey, do you know of any good location to get python3-requests for precise?
 * pitti waves good night
<cjwatson> mdz: don't know if this is a regular thing, I only know about it from slangasek
<cjwatson> sergiusens: nope, I guess it might be possible to backport it
<cjwatson> sergiusens: but I'd say that if dependencies are unavailable on precise then that's a good reason to have bilingual code and run it under Python 2 on precise
<mdz> cjwatson, slangasek isn't in the bay area now, is he?
<mdz> http://bad.debian.net/ lists August 8th 2012 as an 'upcoming event' :-)
<mdz> good night pitti
<sergiusens> cjwatson, sounds reasonable
<cjwatson> mdz: he's with us in Oakland
<mdz> oh, just at the moment
<cjwatson> yeah
<mdz> not relocated
<cjwatson> can't imagine prying him loose from Portland
<mdz> yeah
<mdz> who's there and how long? anyone interested in meeting up?
<cjwatson> UE managers and tech leads
<mdz> this week is pretty busy for me but we could probably work something out
<cjwatson> a few old-timers, I can ask around
<hallyn> slangasek: see edk2 thread titled 'OVMF support for QEMU's PC System Flash' - i could be wrong, but i *think* that gives us what we wanted with being able to persist nvvars changes across qemu starts
<paulproteus> mdz: Huh, BAD is on Wednesday?
<paulproteus> Intriguing.
#ubuntu-devel 2013-10-29
<Saviq> slangasek, just tried creating a trusty --target armhf schroot, deboostrap failed with:
<Saviq> Package libc-dev:armhf is a virtual package provided by:
<Saviq>   musl-dev:armhf 0.9.14-2
<Saviq>   libc6-dev:armhf 2.17-93ubuntu4
<cjwatson> Saviq_: fix uploaded
<cjwatson> should work in whenever it builds
<Saviq_> cjwatson, cheers
<cjwatson> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/musl/0.9.14-2ubuntu1
<hyperair> is there a mouse button i can use for directly-open-this-item-instead-of-previewing?
<hyperair> e.g. in the file lens
<hyperair> aha, double click.
 * hyperair feels dumb.
<RAOF> Heh
<hyperair> no idea why, but i had the impression that the dash wasn't a very double-clicky palce.
<hyperair> place*
<hyperair> i guess it felt more web-like than typical interfaces, so double click didn't cross my mind.
<RAOF> Also, launcher-ish.
<RAOF> They've traditionally not been double-clicky.
<hyperair> yeah
<hyperair> i guess
<hyperair> i wonder if that's a design failing..
<RAOF> I guess?
<hyperair> do new users think to double click, i wonder?
<sarnold> I thought I heard the double-click launch was replaced with single-click launch since no one ever found the double-click?
<RAOF> For now, it's a lunch failing âº
<hyperair> heh
<hyperair> sarnold: nope, double click launch is back.
<hyperair> it doesn't show up in unity tweak tool either
<hyperair> so it's pretty hidden.
<sarnold> win 3.1 for the win :) hehe
<hyperair> heh
<hyperair> i reckon left/right clicking doesn't work so well for touchscreen users.
<sarnold> right click is often emulated with a long-hold click on touch devices
<sarnold> not sure if touch gets long-hold to launch, double-click to launch, or click to launch.
<hyperair> yeah but often double tap is a lot less annoying than longpress tap
 * hyperair gets impatient with longpress delays
<sarnold> no kidding, who has .5 seconds to waste? :)
<hyperair> ;)
<hyperair> .5 seconds feels like ages when holding your finger on something.
<darkxst> Bug 1245734
<ubottu> bug 1245734 in clutter-gst-2.0 (Ubuntu) "FTBFS: hang on g-ir-scanner on PPA builders" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1245734
<pitti> Good morning
<maxiaojun> Can someone elaborate why Ubuntu switched to libproxy1 while Debian stick with libproxy0 ?
<StevenK> Debian will switch, libproxy1 is in experimental
<maxiaojun> how to release binary depends on libproxy then?
<maxiaojun> i mean binary work across debian and ubuntu
<maxiaojun> ?
<RAOF> Bundle your libproxy? We don't guarantee that the same binary packages can work on both Ubuntu and Debian.
<maxiaojun> ok
<RAOF> It might help to know what you're actually trying to do, of course. :)
<maxiaojun> i actually (force) installed hexchat package for debian 7, found that libproxy is a dependency that cannot be easily resolved by lowering version requirement
<maxiaojun> I symlinked libproxy.so.0 to libproxy.so.1 and the software is working so far
<RAOF> That's highly likely to crash at some point.
<RAOF> The reason why the â0â turned into a â1â is that the the ABI changed. Should hexchat call one of the functions that changed, it'll crash in awesomely obscure ways.
<maxiaojun> so i was asking for a better solution
<RAOF> Rebuild the source package on Ubuntu?
<maxiaojun> sure, but i'd see a "cross-platform" deb
<RAOF> Right.
<RAOF> You can't have a cross-platform deb.
<maxiaojun> another question, why software center's history is based on package rather than app?
<maxiaojun> if chrome's deb can be cross-platform ...
<RAOF> maxiaojun: Chrome's deb is cross-platform because they've gone to some effort to make it cross-platform. And even then it doesn't work on squeeze.
<maxiaojun> sure, isn't this a sad fact for linux?
<RAOF> Not really?
<maxiaojun> the status quo is that some deb made for debian, some made for ubuntu, some made for outdated releases of either, ...
<fishor> hello devs. Are there any good reason why debug function __gl_meshCheckMesh is enabled in  libcogl12
<fishor> i did some perf tests with empathy-call and most rated function was __gl_meshCheckMes
<fishor> but accoring to the source it should be disabled if NDEBUG is defined.
<fishor> see https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1245259
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1245259 in cogl (Ubuntu) "exctra cpu load with __gl_meshCheckMesh" [Undecided,New]
<sladen> fishor: thanks for the bug report!
<brainwash> pitti: do you need any other log files to understand the logind suspend/resume issue?
<pitti> brainwash: not sure yet, someone first has to dig through the current ones; but a full dbus-monitor including methods already sounds very useful indeed, thanks!
<ogra_> consolekit source is still in the archive ;)
<brainwash> pitti: the log looks ok? I'm not sure, it does not look any different than the one before applying the dbus debug config, almost only signal entries
<pitti> brainwash: hm, I indeed don't actually see any suspend call there
<brainwash> pitti: after resuming from suspend logind reports "Failed to send delayed message:" and systemd-shim does not confirm, that the async communication was successful
<brainwash> maybe the dbus-daemon needs to be run in debug mode or something like that
<pitti> shoudln't; I tried that thing without changing anythign in d-bus; I think I just added the config, rebooted, and it worked
<pitti> I did that a month ago for something else (http://www.piware.de/2013/09/how-to-watch-system-d-bus-method-calls/)
<pitti> brainwash: with the wiki recipe you need "sudo dbus-monitor --system", did you use sudo?
<pitti> (i. e. run it as root)
<brainwash> yes, I did.. but I did not reboot
<brainwash> a reboot shouldn't be required, or?
<brainwash> does systemd-logind support the G_DBUS_DEBUG? setting this env var didn't seem to trigger any debug output, so I simply added the strace output
<pitti> brainwash: oh, it is required
<pitti> brainwash: you at least need to restart the system dbus to pick up the new config
<pitti> brainwash: shim supports G_DBUS, but logind doesn't use glib or gdbus so that doesn't support it
<brainwash> pitti: ah, I see, I'll update the dbus-monitor log file as soon as the failure occurs again
<pitti> brainwash: ok, thanks (sorry for lag, deep in debugging something)
<cjwatson> xnox: Looks like you could sync dolfin and that would let octave-msh build?
<xnox> cjwatson: looking.
<brainwash> pitti: bummer, the new dbus monitor log file doesn't look any different, and the first lines already indicate that the "debugging mode" is active (eavesdrop=true)
<smoser> lifeless, i wonder if you see an obvious issue in this bug https://github.com/kennethreitz/requests/issues/1686
<smoser> (other than the admittedly silly open/close at the beginning).
 * pitti yearns for getting daily trusty ISOs; dist-upgrading saucy live systems is getting painful
<ogra_> just use touch, we have images every day :)
<pitti> ogra_: well, my messaging-app tests already reliably pass on mako and reliably crash unity on maguro, so no point in this case :) it's the otto/amd64 test which gives me the finger
<ogra_> yes, i saw the commits :)
<pitti> ogra_: wow, you follow every MP? :-)
<ogra_> pitti, are you running the tests as phablet user ? (thats essential for some bits ... i.e. the right upstart sessionn and its vars)
<pitti> ogra_: err, this is otto; i. e. essentially a desktop unity7 live session and the "ubuntu" user
<ogra_> pitti, i see the subjects and a few lines while marking them read
<ogra_> i dont read every MP
<ogra_> ah, i thought that was for the touch AP tests too
<pitti> ogra_: it is
<pitti> ogra_: but I can't land the thing until each and every bug is fixed (instead of using the tests to hold back the landing of the bugs)
<pitti> the irony of having tests as an afterthough
<pitti> t
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> well, the whole platform layer is very short on tests still
<ogra_> we redesigned the whole architecture of touch three times last cycle ...
<ogra_> slowly iterating to the final setup
<brainwash> pitti: will DBUS_VERBOSE=1 work on dbus-daemon?
<pitti> brainwash: I don't know I'm afraid; I never needed to do something like that
<cjwatson> pitti: oh, I'd actually forgotten I hadn't turned them on ... I should finish that
<pitti> cjwatson: many thanks, much appreciated
<cjwatson> it fell in the "things I was doing just before I started travelling" bucket
<pitti> cjwatson: heh; you are at the client sprint, I take it?
<cjwatson> Yeah
<cjwatson> "Please note that logrotate should not be relied upon if you are using a TARDIS."
<ogra_> lol
<xnox> cjwatson: synced dolfin, but dolfin/arm64 still dep-waits on octave-msh/arm64 which dep-waits on cgal/arm64 which dep-waits on mpfi/arm64 which FTBFS.
<xnox> oh, octave-msh had versioned build-dep, I see.
<cjwatson> xnox: Well, mpfi/arm64 never built so whatever
<xnox> ok.
<cjwatson> Indeed nor did dolfin/arm64
<cjwatson> I ran across this in proposed-migration output, not in arm64 failures :)
<cjwatson> Thanks for the sync
<xnox> =)))))
<cyphermox> ogra_: you around?
<cyphermox> ogra_: I want to know if you've upgraded your chromebook to > precise?
<ogra_> cyphermox, i run raring on mine
<cyphermox> ogra_: ok, no upgrade past that?
<ogra_> never tried, unity works so well in my setup
<ogra_> dont want to risk that
<robert_ancell> tseliot, would you be the right person to ask about remote login?
<robert_ancell> (from unity-greeter)
<tseliot> robert_ancell: not really, I've never worked on it
<robert_ancell> tseliot, mterry lied then :)
<tseliot> hehe
<robert_ancell> tsdgeos, mterry said it was someone who started with ts, perhaps you? :)
<tseliot> robert_ancell: BTW thanks a lot for your help :)
<robert_ancell> np
<tsdgeos> robert_ancell: it'd be me i guess yeah
<robert_ancell> tsdgeos, we made some fixes to the guest session apparmor (bug 1243339) and we need to check that remote logins still work but none of us has ever done one - can you check or is there an easy way for us to do that?
<ubottu> bug 1243339 in Light Display Manager "lightdm no longer runs guest session through wrapper" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1243339
<tsdgeos> robert_ancell: ouch to be honest i don't remember the server details for remote login, dbarth was the one "managering" the thing, you probably want him to find someone to have a look at this
<tsdgeos> i honestly have not much time at the moment for this
<robert_ancell> tsdgeos, yeah, I was looking for him but he seems to be hiding. Perhaps he knew I was looking for him :)
<robert_ancell> ok, np
<tsdgeos> robert_ancell: but it was not trivial, you need some webservice to authenticate with and then a remote server to log in
<tsdgeos> was not easy to setup afair
<tsdgeos> it took me at least a day back then
<robert_ancell> yeah, I hope he has it already set up
<psusi> does anyone know how the blkid cache ever gets created?  the udev rules run blkid with the -p switch, which prevents it from using the cache.
<xnox> psusi: i believe it's intentional that cache is not populated under normal operating conditions, instead one should invoke blkid _without_ consultin cache such that results are fed from the udevdb (canonical, correct and current information)
<xnox> psusi: also see bug  #514130
<ubottu> bug 514130 in util-linux (Ubuntu) "/etc/blkid.tab symlink is broken (or: /dev/.blkid.tab doesn't exist)" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/514130
<psusi> xnox: why is that?  I would think that the udev rules should populate the cache so it is there and ready for use by later utilities
<psusi> also I think you have that backwards... blkid feeds information *to* udevdb
<dobey> sarnold: hi again! do you know if there is a good way to implement some regression tests for an apparmor profile? so i can have some tests in my test suite, test that the permissions don't break and the profile remains correct and up to date?
<sarnold> hey dobey :)
<sarnold> dobey: I'm sorry, I don't know anything that we'd have already to go that would help much; you might be able to use the aa-exec helper to load a profile and execute a program, to help automate some of the bits of loading a profile..
<dobey> sarnold: do you think maybe python-libapparmor might help?
<xnox> psusi: right, and everything else should speak to udev. Why is it a problem if the cache is not populated?
<sarnold> dobey: probably not; that library is mostly going to be shims around the aa_change_hat() and aa_change_profile() methods; you're unlikely to find them useful
<tyhicks> dobey: what is it that you're testing?
<dobey> ah, ok
<sarnold> dobey: aa-easyprof might be an easier-to-templatize language than using the built-in profile variables, and aa-easyprof might also be easier than sed ..
<xnox> psusi: i mean, util-linux package could grow e.g. an upstart job to call blkid and populate the blkid database but it seems a bit retro.
<psusi> xnox: you know... I guess thre isn't... I just thought it always was but maybe it is not and just populated on demand whenever I run blkid... but it does seem a bit wasteful to re-read the disks when you run blkid when the udev rules already did it once... may as well add it to the cache
<dobey> tyhicks: i'm writing an apparmor profile for tarmac, and i want to integrate tests in the test suite to ensure the profile is correct, and doesn't regress
<psusi> xnox: I was thinking more like drop the -p from the udev rules so the probed data gets written to the cache
<tyhicks> dobey: It seems to me like you just want to be able to load the profile prior to running the tarmac regression tests
<tyhicks> dobey: I don't think you need to dig into apparmor too much for this outside of making sure that tarmac is confined when running the regression tests
<dobey> tyhicks: well, not exactly. the profile wouldn't apply to the test runner program, and we wouldn't be running the tarmac script as a normal program in the tests.
<dobey> so i don't think that would work exactly
<xnox> psusi: i'd be worried dropping -p from the udev rules, since then one will need to run "blkid -g", if I unplug a usb-stick & change it and plug it back in, I want "fresh" blkid results fed to udevadm rules, cause who knowns what local udev rules are expecting....
<dobey> tyhicks: but applying the profile and unapplying it, in a test's setUp() and tearDown() would be what i want, i guess
<psusi> xnox: yea.. the remove event should run blkid -g to clean up the cache for the unplugged device
<dobey> tyhicks: is there a way to apply a profile to a specific process, regardless if it matches the profile name, and to esaily drop that profile from that process?
<tyhicks> dobey: running the application under aa-exec is the easiest, but the confinement lasts throughout the process's lifetime
<tyhicks> dobey: it allows you to specify an apparmor profile and run a program under that profile
<tyhicks> so it meets your "regardless if it matches the profile name" requirement, but I'm not sure if it meets the "drop the profile from that process" requirement
<tyhicks> dobey: if you need to do something more fine grained, python-libapparmor may actually be of some help so that you can switch in and out of a profile on the fly (see the aa_change_profile() man page)
<dobey> yeah. i don't think that will work either. it will probably make the tests always fail, when trying to run them on my machine, versus when they were being run by tarmac while landing the branch
<dobey> tyhicks: hrmm, that *might* be usable, in combination with aa-exec (i don't see a way to load an arbitrary file for the profile in python-libapparmor))
<tyhicks> dobey: ping us if you have any trouble (I'm not the best one to help with aa_change_profile()/aa_change_hat() - my experience with them stops at the man page)
<dobey> tyhicks, sarnold: thanks for the pointers
<tyhicks> np
<dobey> tyhicks: hrmm. i don't see a way to get the current profile name in use, before calling aa_change_profile(). is there a way to do that, or should i just always use "unconfined" to change back to?
<tyhicks> dobey: aa_getcon()
<tyhicks> dobey: it'll return the profile confining the current process in *con - you don't really care about *mode for what you're doing
<jdstrand> tyhicks: I missed backscroll, did you mention root privs are needed to load the profile in the first place?
<tyhicks> jdstrand: nope - good point
<tyhicks> dobey: see jdstrand's message
<dobey> jdstrand: with aa-exec?
<jdstrand> no
<jdstrand> aa-exec is for changing to a profile that is already in the kernel
<jdstrand> that is fine and needs no privilege
<dobey> jdstrand: it has a --file option to pass a file/dir containing the profile, that isn't already loaded
<jdstrand> you need to load a profile into the kernel with apparmor_parser
<jdstrand> ah, well, ok
<jdstrand> then that will need privilege
<dobey> jdstrand: do you know if that requires privs?
<dobey> ;(
<jdstrand> loading a profile into the kernel needs MAC_ADMIN
<jdstrand> dobey: I've solved this sort of things in testsuites in the past by breaking out tests that need priviliege into its own class
<jdstrand> then make it so those tests aren't run if you aren't root, if you are, they are
<dobey> right, i was hoping there was a way to test it without needint root or loading stuff into the kernel
<jdstrand> that makes them continue to work on the buildd, but you can run them as root locally or via CI infrastructure, etc
<jdstrand> unfortunately, no
<dobey> that's too bad. oh well, maybe later then
<sarnold> :(
<lifeless> smoser: had a quick look
<lifeless> smoser: and put a comment on the github issue
<smoser> the object is big. 200+M (i gave a url)
<smoser> to somethin gi know your familiar with :)
<lifeless> smoser: right, I'm paging stuff in; I have Cynthia at the moment and it's early ;)
<smoser> lifeless, it seems generally broken though.
<smoser> theres no guarantee that such open-close-open will occur on a single system (or as a single user)
<smoser> such that theres no way that i could realistically 100% avoid hitting that behavior in squid.
<smoser> even that you could DOS another node that was using a squid proxy by open/close of links you knew it'd hit.
<lifeless> smoser: oh, it's squid specific?
<dobey> sarnold: does this look right, or missing anything that should be there? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/6325425/
<smoser> well the other guythere says he can't reproduce on his http proxy
<smoser> (mitmproxy)
<sarnold> dobey: tarmac_child probably needs some rules like: /**/ r, /** rmix,
<sarnold> dobey: (the intention is for tarmac_child to be able to do very nearly anything, right?)
<lifeless> smoser: when you open, are you doing range requests, or a plain open ?
<dobey> sarnold: the child needs to run lots of things, yes, but not read everything;
<smoser> lifeless, plain open. see example test case that shows it there.
<lifeless> smoser: ack
<smoser> lifeless, the reason i hit htis was stupid.... we were essentially trying to 'stat' if there was data there.
<dobey> sarnold: i guess maybe there isn't a good way to do what i want with apparmor necessarily either?
<sarnold> dobey: you could narrow down the read and ix accesses as needed, that might take a while to find them all though. take a look at /etc/apparmor.d/abstractions/private-files-strict
<lifeless> smoser: doesn't hang for me
<lifeless> smoser: how far in does it hang ?
<sarnold> dobey: .. that <abstractions/private-files-strict> would forbid access to a lot of things that ought to remain private. It might be helpful if you need to grant a lot of read permissions..
<smoser> lifeless, odd. if you want to, you can see reproduce at
<smoser> ssh smoser@smoser1029s.cloudapp.net
<dobey> sarnold: hrmm, so just list additional things that can't be read, instead of granting permissions to things?
<lifeless> smoser: oh, so it hangs somewhere into it.
<lifeless> smoser: looking closer
<sarnold> dobey: oh! I think your #include <abstractions/base>  is going to need to go inside the tarmac profile, and again inside the tarmac_child child profile
<sarnold> dobey: yeah; the additional 'deny' rules here can help make up for needing to grant too much permission elsewhere. It's not awesome, but it might be a useful simplification if these might run on developer workstations
<dobey> sarnold: i guess i need to include lots of the abstraction files?
<sarnold> dobey: not necessarily; it's not like we've got a build-essential profile :/ hehe
<lifeless> smoser: ok so it's a variable number of reads in that it fails at
<dobey> sarnold: so /usr/lib/python2.y/ stuff won't be blocked by not including abstractions/python in the profile?
<smoser> lifeless, i appreciate your help, but you're competely allowed to say "i dont have time".
<sarnold> dobey: if it isn't listed, it'll be blocked. you can either hunt down the abstractions that allow what you need, or you can include the files by hand. You might want to "go big" at the start, and include something like /{usr,}/{s,}bin/* rmix, /lib/** rm, /usr/lib/** rm,  -- you already know that these might do a lot of things, and you might as well get as many of them upfront as you can
<lifeless> smoser: the file you close isn't getting closed
<lifeless> smoser: do this
<lifeless> sudo tail -f /var/log/squid3/access.log &
<lifeless> ./reproduce.sh
<dobey> sarnold: hrmm, ok
<lifeless> smoser: then ctrl-C once it blocks
<lifeless> smoser: you should see *two* squid log entries turn up at once
<lifeless> smoser: now, I'm going to try deleting the request object
<lifeless> smoser: tada, 'fixed'
<lifeless> smoser: now, we need to see if it's a cross process bug affecting squid, or a requests in-process thing
<lifeless> smoser: when I left the 'hung' one for 10m or so, it completed.
<lifeless> smoser: or timed out, or something
<smoser> lifeless, yeah, it eventually times out i think.
<lifeless> ok
<lifeless> so I've modified the test setup to test with two processes
<lifeless> and indeed it hangs
<lifeless> smoser: to which I say 'fuckitty fuck fuck'
<smoser> well, you're writing to the same file :)
<lifeless> smoser: no writing at all
<lifeless> smoser: just reading
<lifeless> smoser: read the modified code
<smoser> ah.
<smoser> yeah.
<smoser> so that would mean i can DOS someone using the same squid proxy as  me
<lifeless> one process does a short read, doesn't close the url properly (because requests.close doesn't seem to do much)
<smoser> at very least from the same host i can.
<lifeless> and one that tries to just snarf stuff
<lifeless> this is major
<lifeless> now, it might be a local squid config issue - in setups with bad hosts you actually want something like this behaviour to avoid overloading the host
<lifeless> or it might be a default change in Debian/Ubuntu
<lifeless> or it might be upstream.
<smoser> lifeless, well that is default 'apt-get install squid3'
<lifeless> Lets assume upstream for now
<smoser> no config changes done.
<lifeless> and file it there with the reproducer.sh and the -short and -full scripts.
<lifeless> we'll want to try latest release squid3 as well
<lifeless> and see if that magically fixes it
<dobey> sarnold: i guess i should use Cx instead of cx, for the child? i'm not clear on how that relates to environment variables being passed in to subprocess.call() for example. or further children of the child?
<sarnold> dobey: the environment scrubbing from Cx will only happen on the first execve() -- of course, once the environment is scrubbed, further children will receive the scrubbed environment, but the scrubbing only happens once, at the "top most" execve()
<sarnold> dobey: I'd probably stick with 'cx', just in case you need to set some of the magic environment variables
<dobey> sarnold: well, looks like we aren't passing any environment to subprocess.Popen() so i guess Cx should be good (and more secure)?
<sarnold> dobey: yes, it will be more secure; you might want to document it somewhere though, just in case someone wants to set LD_PRELOAD before executing tarmac for some corner case testing...
<dobey> sarnold: yeah, i'll update the documentation once i get the bits ironed out. i need to change the behavior of how it runs the sub-command a bit as well, so that it does a bzr export of the tree to a temporary location, and runs the tests in there instead of directly in the working tree
<sarnold> dobey: nice :D
<dobey> maybe i should do that in a separate branch th ough, just to split it up
<mterry> Why is pitivi in main?  It doesn't seem seeded
<cjwatson> mterry: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/germinate-output/ubuntu.trusty/rdepends/ALL/pitivi
<cjwatson> (The usb seed is a bit obsolete and maybe we should kill it)
<mterry> cjwatson, weird
<lifeless> smoser: so, you'll file it upstream?
<brainwash> pitti: ping
<smoser> lifeless, i can, yeah.
#ubuntu-devel 2013-10-30
<smoser> lifeless, thanks. http://bugs.squid-cache.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3949
<ubottu> bugs.squid-cache.org bug 3949 in other "hang in read caused by unclosed connection" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<smoser> now me to bed.
<lifeless> smoser: gnight
<lifeless> smoser: thanks
<snkt> hiii
<slangasek> hallyn_: ovmf persistence> oh, very nice :)
<pitti_> Good morning
<brainwash> pitti: uhm, someone removed almost all duplicates from the logind suspend/resume bug report
<pitti> erk, why's that? any comment about it?
<ogra_> secret lennart conspiracy !
<ogra_> :)
<pitti> he'd be the first one to point bugs in our hacks :)
<ogra_> yeah
<pitti> point "out"
 * ogra_ was just joking
<brainwash> pitti: dunno, but I got some new info, so I replaced pm-suspend by a simple script which sleeps for a longer amount of time (10/15/30 sec, some value)
<brainwash> this does reproduce the issue
<brainwash> it still happens only occasionally I think
<pitti> brainwash: oh, hang on
<pitti> I just saw that systemd-shim times out after 10 seconds
<brainwash> o.o
<pitti> that should certainly be much longer
<brainwash> yeah :D
<pitti> brainwash: hang on, I'm finally through with what I was working on before, I'll look at the bug now
<pitti> brainwash: where did you put the sleep, just to be sure?
<pitti> brainwash: so perhaps this happens on machines where suspend/resume takes longer, due to some particular hardware, or slow machines, etc.
<brainwash> I simple replaced the /usr/sbin/pm-suspend in systemd-shim
<pitti> brainwash: developers tend to have fast boxes with SSDs and well-supported hardware where suspend is fast, perhaps that's why :)
<brainwash> and pointed it to a script which contains "sleep"
<pitti> brainwash: can you still reproduce it if you change g_timeout_add (10000, ... to g_timeout_add_seconds(600, ...) in src/systemd-shim.c ?
<brainwash> but 10 sec is still a lot, don't think that my laptop needs that much time (it does wake up my dedicated gpu before going to sleep)
<pitti> brainwash: that'll keep it alive for 10 minutes
<brainwash> under real conditions or simulated?
<brainwash> well, I try both and report back
<pitti> brainwash: shouldn't matter
<pitti> brainwash: i. e. if you have "pidof systemd-shim" being empty right after resume (e. g. after your logind d-bus call), it would explain that
<pitti> or "could" rather (I'm not that familiar with the shim, desrt would know much better)
<brainwash> systemd-shim is still there after resume, see my old log https://launchpadlibrarian.net/155226906/systemd-shim-debug.log
<pitti> brainwash: ok, so probably not that then :/
<brainwash> oh well, the timeout might have occurred after the resume, can't tell from that log I guess
<tseliot> pitti: do we still support lpia as an arch?
<pitti> tseliot: no, that got dropped afer lucid I believe
<tseliot> pitti: ok, thanks, it's probably time to clean up my nvidia packages then ;)
<ogra_> lol
<brainwash> pitti: did some simulated runs, it seems to work, if there is a delay of 10/15/20sec, but failed twice with 30sec (logind not in prepare for sleep mode anymore, but network down)
<brainwash> pitti: do you intend to upload a patched systemd-shim somewhere, so more people can test it?
<pitti> brainwash: so your https://launchpadlibrarian.net/155226775/dbus-monitor-system.log log definitively shows the missing PrepareForSleep False; but you say it's probably not due to the shim timing out?
<pitti> brainwash: oh, so the longer delay fixes the PrepareForSleep False signal?
<pitti> brainwash: NM is supposed to pick that up
<pitti> brainwash: sure, I'll put that into a PPA and follow up to the bug report, let's collect some data on that
<brainwash> pitti: it seems, that logind didn't get stuck anymore, but I only did a small of amount of test runs
<pitti> merely increasing the timeout is not a final solution, but if that works I'll know what to discuss with desrt :)
<pitti> brainwash: uploaded, I'll wait with the bug update until binaries are available
<brainwash> but in my case the current 10sec timeout should be actually enough, so it's strange
<brainwash> pitti: were you able to reproduce the issue with the current timeout value and some delay of 10+sec?
<pitti> brainwash: not yet, was reading the bug report so fara
<brainwash> pitti: oh, just realized that the user who removed the duplicate reports is telling people to test the upstream kernel
<pitti> bogus, won't help
<brainwash> what a mess
<pitti> in fact, I thought I duplicated a kernel bug to the systemd-shim one this morning
<brainwash> ok, I have to go now and will do some more testing later, cya :)
<pitti> brainwash: thanks! cu (packages are building)
<ogra_> http://devnull-as-a-service.com/
 * ogra_ grins 
<pitti> lol
<xnox> pitti: my 32GB RAM desktop does take a while to suspend to a spinny disk. and it is flaky sometimes.
<pitti> brainwash: PPA is ready, followed up to the bug, and marked two handfuls of bugs as duplicates (based on a search on "resume network")
<ogra_> 32G ? why do you use disks at all ?
<ogra_> :)
<pitti> xnox: yeah, worth trying the PPA then if you can reproduce that
<pitti> xnox: oh wait, suspend to *disk*; that's something else then, most probably
<xnox> pitti: ack.
<pitti> ogra_: in fact I do most stuff in /tmp these days (tmpfs), as my RAM (16 GB) is bigger than my system partition :)
<ogra_> yeah, same here
<pitti> running VMs or schroot builds is incredibly fast there, quite nice
<ogra_> yup
<pitti> these were the main reasons I got so much ram in the first place
<ogra_> even doing native arm builds in a qemu VM  is faster thann doing it on real HW
<brainwash> pitti: great job, but the first comment on your patched package does not look promising :/
<pitti> darn
<brainwash> maybe logind does not get stuck anymore, but there is still something odd about nm
<brainwash> time to start my tests and do some monitoring
 * zyga wonders how hard would it be to copy ubuntu CD image into ramdisk before really starting the installation process
<zyga> (like knoppix used to do)
<zyga> installing from CD is really noisy
<pitti> wow, you actually use CDs for installation? (good that someone tests this!)
<brainwash> TORAM?
<brainwash> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BootToRAM
<zyga> pitti: yes
<zyga> pitti: i'm reusing a very old dvd-rw that I bought years ago
<davmor2> pitti:  I always do :D
<zyga> pitti: usb creator is broken and I didn't want to dd stuff to random partitions (even though I know how to find the right one)
<zyga> pitti: still, is it "easy" to do something like that?
<zyga> pitti: I have no idea how knoppix did it
<zyga> pitti: or how hard that is to do with a modern kernel
<pitti> zyga: I suppose something like "cat /dev/cdrom > /dev/null" already should do it, and let the cache take care of the rest
<zyga> pitti: that doesn't stop the CD from spinning very noisily
<pitti> well, you need to read the data once..
<zyga> pitti: but perhaps that + some way of slowing the cd speed
<zyga> pitti: well sure, I'm not asking for miracles
<zyga> pitti: it's just after thet initial process, the cd should be ejectable
<pitti> zyga: sudo hdparm -E 10 or so?
<pitti> (never tried that, though.. -ENOCDROM)
<zyga> pitti: do you think that's doable in trusty installer? :-)
<pitti> zyga: I'm not sure it actually helps
<pitti> especially on older machines without much RAM the 800 MB or so wouldn't even fit
<pitti> and I suppose we are talking about older machines here
<pitti> zyga: but it's worth a try whether the hdparm helps
<zyga> pitti: well, not really, knoppix hat some heuristic where it would do if if you had 1GB of ram
<zyga> pitti: (and you could really eject the cd and use it for other things then, it was a major selling point for the live CD that allowes you to use your CD)
<zyga> pitti: this is a core i7 with 18GB of ram, it's also 5 years old so I don't know
<pitti> zyga: that could be done by cat'ing to a file in tmpfs (in initramfs) and loop-mounting that instead of /dev/cdrom
<zyga> pitti: which source package should be hacked to get that behavior? initrfams stuff or something "after"?
<pitti> but that really requires >= 1.5 GB of RAM then
<zyga> pitti: sure, many machines have enough of memory and that could be a nice improvement
<pitti> zyga: my first thought would be casper
<pitti> I think that handles everything
<zyga> ok
<brainwash> pitti: several test runs with a 20sec delay, everything works nice, increasing the artificial delay to 30sec causes some trouble
<pitti> brainwash: so maybe that hits a d-bus timeout somewhere (but standard d-bus timeout is 30 s)
<brainwash> but 30sec.. that's an eternity
<pitti> yeah, you can boot 4 times in that..
<brainwash> maybe due to the clock jump after resume?
<brainwash> this would be really odd
<brainwash> well, lets wait for some more test results
<pitti> brainwash: ooh, more promising now :)
<brainwash> pitti: great, so a restart is required?
<pitti> brainwash: not sure why that would be, the old shim ought to time out quickly
<brainwash> pitti: I'll test your package later, because I cannot do several suspend/resume cycles right now to verify it actually works
<brainwash> but it works in theory for me (fake suspend)
<pitti> brainwash: great; many thanks for your investigations!
<mlankhorst> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 13.10 released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> saucy | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: mlankhorst
<brainwash> pitti: still not fixed, see the latest comments :/
<brainwash> I guess the current fix only covers a small amount of cases
<voldyman> is this the correct place to ask about appindicators ?
<voldyman> where can i find the list of icons available, the sample code uses "indicator-messages"
<ricotz> voldyman, maybe better in #ubuntu-unity
<jamespage> infinity, any chance I could persuade you to SRU the fix for bug 1187722 to quantal and raring as well?
<ubottu> bug 1187722 in golang (Ubuntu) "dpkg-shlibdeps fails on armhf ELF binaries that do not define architecture specific information" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1187722
<zyga> http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=firefox&searchon=names&suite=all&section=all
<zyga> why does trusty have firefox 24 while saucy got 25?
<cjwatson> security updates for all stables; wonder if we can copy that forward
<cjwatson> looks like it's possible
<cjwatson> chrisccoulson: want me to copy firefox from saucy-updates to trusty-proposed?
<cjwatson> or are you already working on an independent update?
<chrisccoulson> cjwatson, feel free to copy it across
<cjwatson> chrisccoulson: done
<chrisccoulson> cjwatson, thanks
<tsdgeos> guys, trusty won't update anymore in my laptop http://paste.ubuntu.com/6330740/
<tsdgeos> who to i tell?
<Laney> http://paste.ubuntu.com/6330818/
<Laney> zul: are you working on openstack uploads for trusty or can we copy those?
<zul> Laney: feel free to copy over
<Laney> ta
<Laney> Riddell: kubuntu-docs too
<cjwatson> tsdgeos: Do you know what version of that package last worked?  Should be possible to find it from /var/log/dpkg.log
<Riddell> Laney: what about it?
<Riddell> Laney: oh right, yeah please copy
<tsdgeos> cjwatson: 1.34 worked
<cjwatson> the only change to the i2kmon init script appears to be that it's now enabled by default
<cjwatson> do you actually have the hardware that this package drives?
<Laney> Riddell: rockin'
<cjwatson> oh no, there's s/--exec/--startas/ too, but still
<cjwatson> tsdgeos: I think your best bet is to disable it in /etc/default/i2kmon and file a bug; I'm not familiar enough with the implementation language here to debug why it's exiting non-zero
<tsdgeos> cjwatson: no clue to be honest
<tsdgeos> it just came out as a dependency from somehwere
<infinity> jamespage: Could do, I was under the impression when it was brought up that we only care about the LTS and current devel.
<infinity> jamespage: Is there actually a concern for (nearly EOL) releases here, or just people who want to build all releases in a PPA for no good reason except "because they can"?
<TheMuso> xnox: Do you want me to go ahead and drop libasound2-plugins-extra now, or are you on it already?
<xnox> TheMuso: I'm on it already.
<TheMuso> xnox: Ok thanks.
<xnox> TheMuso: just planning my moves.
<TheMuso> np
<TheMuso> Gotta love patent encumbered codecs.
<mterry> didrocks, I added a new wiki section that I think you'll like: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MIRTeam#Making_Life_Easier_for_Archive_Team_Members  :)
<TheMuso> xnox: Oh I didn't expect you to split things out. I was only going to follow through given the demand...
<roaksoax> hi all! I was wondering what to do with packages that come from debian that use systemd
<dobey> sarnold: hi! i requested a review from you for https://code.launchpad.net/~dobey/tarmac/add-apparmor/+merge/193323 if you could take a few minutes to review it please. :)
<roaksoax> like: --with=systemd
<xnox> roaksoax: nothing.
<roaksoax> xnox: cool!
<xnox> roaksoax: it should be able to build correctly.
<roaksoax> zul: 6^
<roaksoax> zul: ^^
<roaksoax> xnox: yeah it does, I was just wondering if we should be dropping it or just not care
<zul> cool
<roaksoax> xnox: zul's fault :P
<xnox> zul: roaksoax: be careful though, sometimes together with systemd "enablement" dh_installinit calls are dropped, which may affect and not install upstart jobs.
<roaksoax> xnox: ok cool thanks!
<bkerensa> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/index.html
<bkerensa> getting epic big
<bkerensa> 89 items
<bkerensa> :D
<brainwash> xnox: can you build a working ubuntu package for bug 1183580 please? I lack the knowledge to properly build it myself :/
<ubottu> bug 1183580 in librcc (Ubuntu) "librcc segfaults on latest saucy" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1183580
<brainwash> if no, which developer(s) should I notify instead?
<xnox> brainwash: $ sudo apt-get install build-essential fakeroot dpkg-dev
<xnox> brainwash: $ sudo apt-get build-dep librcc
<xnox> brainwash: $ apt-get source -b librcc
<xnox> should produce recompiled packages
<xnox> which you will be able to install with $ dpkg -i *.deb
<xnox> brainwash: please let me know if that fixes the problem for you.
<brainwash> xnox: the package in the repository is broken, would rebuilding it without any change help at all?
<xnox> brainwash: in weird cases, it can.
<xnox> brainwash: if you can do above and verify that recompiled _one over_ package resolves the problem, then all is good and it will be a quick SRU. If it doesn't, then the bug in question is harder.
<xnox> brainwash: it usually helps resolve crasher bugs, due to un-noticed ABI breakage.
<brainwash> xnox: sure, I can try it, will report back later
<brainwash> thanks :)
<brainwash> xnox: no luck, my locally built package still segfaults :(
<xnox> brainwash: then debian binaries might be tainted, as debian accepts binary uploads from maintainer =(
<xnox> (or not-matching source)
<xnox> or there is something odd about our toolchain.... =(
<sarnold> dobey: looks great! thanks :D
<brainwash> xnox: it just feels like this problem is not going to be fixed in saucy, the workaround isn't complicated (install debian library), but it feels wrong
<hallyn_> mterry: so fwiw, I've bristled from the start at, in bug 1126513, a non-server-team-member saying that server team would maintain it :)
<ubottu> bug 1126513 in usbredir (Ubuntu) "[MIR] usbredir-0.6-1" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1126513
<dobey> sarnold: thanks!
<hallyn_> but all right.  fine.  i'll subscribe to the bugs
<dobey> sarnold: about the /**/tarmac though; i was hoping to make it also work for people who are installing it from source in /usr/local, or who are running it directly from within the source tree, as well
<mterry> hallyn_, well
<mterry> hallyn_, that's why only a team member can subscribe a team
<mterry> hallyn_, so if you guys don't want to maintain it, that's fine.  We either find a team that does or we don't have it in main
<hallyn_> mterry: yeah, i just mean that in the boilerplate in the Description, he put down "server team will maintain"
<mterry> hallyn_, yeah  :)  Sorry, I didn't look into his team memberships, I just assumed he knew of what he spoke  :)
<hallyn_> I dunno.  I have no love for the spice-originated source.  but it's only for qemu, so we should.
<hallyn_> mterry: hah, actually he's so fed up he's stopped using ubuntu.
<dobey> sarnold: is there any good way to do that? as otherwise, running from source (which is common), would be unconfined still
<hallyn_> he's upset that spice didn't get into main until raring.
<mterry> hallyn_, ah yes, I saw that comment
<mterry> hallyn_, normal rage-quit material  :)
<hallyn_> all right - so i've subscribed, will comment to that effect, and let the MIR-completion magic happen
<mterry> hallyn_, I mean, do we want this feature?
<mterry> hallyn_, original requester rage-quit.  Do other people want it?
<mterry> Apparently users will benefit, I'm just curious if we have someone driving this change
<hallyn_> it's not a server feature.  we don't hook usb crap up to servers :)
<sarnold> dobey: it'd be ugly, giving multiple attachment paths. might as well leave it alone then. :) thanks
<hallyn_> mterry: but the bar to enabling it is so high (build your own qemu-kvm) that it's probably worthenabling it.
<hallyn_> mterry: I'm only saying this bc the changelog shows so few updates that either the code is stable enough to just have it on, or noone is using it :)
<mterry> hallyn_, often the latter  :)
<sarnold> would the work to enable qemu-kvm to load it as "plugin" be too steep?
<hallyn_> got me
<mterry> hallyn_, so do we need to change qemu to enable support?
<hallyn_> mterry: just debian/control
<mterry> hallyn_, we prefer team bug subscribers, so if you get hit by a bus, we still have someone looking at usbredir -- after a suitable mourning period :)
<hallyn_> you know we sometimes travel as a team
<hallyn_> lemme see how if i can do that
<hallyn_> jamespage: ^ do you know how to subscribe the server team to usbredir bugs?
<hallyn_> though i'm wondering about sarnold's suggestion.
<Laney> it needs to be an administrator
<Laney> Do you mean ubuntu-server-dev? I can do that if so
<Laney> hallyn_: â
<hallyn_> Laney: yeah i think that's what i mean
 * hallyn_ checks
<hallyn_> yup
<Laney> doing
<Laney> done
<hallyn_> Laney: thanks
<Laney> kein problem
<mterry> hallyn_: which sarnold suggestion?
<sarnold> modify qemu-kvm to load usbredir as a plugin if it is available, rather than require build-time linking
<mterry> sarnold, ah neat.  That way we don't need usbredir in main indeed
<hallyn_> won't be particularly easy though, near as i can tell
<sarnold> aww. thanks for looking into it. (I didn't particularly like the feeling that usbredir drastically decreased the value of VM-based isolation..)
<mterry> sarnold, hallyn_: no one seems excited about usbredir...  :)
<sarnold> mterry: yeah. I can appreciate the desire for the feature, though.
<mterry> Well, if the plugin way is unlikely to get done, I guess we can promote
<sarnold> up to the server team if they want to maintain it :) hehe
<hallyn_> i wonder whether rharper has any comments ont he feasability of making it a plugin
 * mterry looks at rharper
<TheMuso> Oh wow, and I thought we had gotten rid of dpatch...
<TheMuso> At least not with universe packages...
<rharper> hallyn_:  mterry : re plugins for qemu; it's been discussed on the list quite a lot and the maintainers always nack it;   If a feature is good enough to be maintained, than it can be compiled in and supported by the distro
<hallyn_> rharper: thanks.  sounds like a no then :)
<hallyn_> sarnold: ^
<sarnold> hallyn_: bugger. the reasoning even makes some kind of sense. hehe. :)
<hallyn_> sarnold: it's the inverse of our reasoning :)
<sarnold> hallyn_: yes! bah. :)
<hallyn_> maybe i'll spend tomorow looking at libpam-mount bugs
<hallyn_> for great glory
<hallyn_> anyway, i'm off - gnight
#ubuntu-devel 2013-10-31
<maxiaojun> how file associations became something that one has to resort to ubuntu tweak?
<maxiaojun> how file associations became something that one has to resort to ubuntu tweak?
<maxiaojun> how file associations became something that one has to resort to ubuntu tweak?
<sarnold> maxiaojun: perhaps you can rephrase your question?
<maxiaojun> do you have problems understanding that?
<maxiaojun> another issue, when run "update-manager -d" on raring, it finds saucy and claim it as a beta
<sarnold> maxiaojun: I don't know what linux file associations are, I don't know what program or database would maintain them, and I'm not sure what would be wrong about using ubuntu tweak to tweak them, if it in fact can :)  there's just a lot about the question I don't understand.
<maxiaojun> sarnold: google and learn what linux file associations are, otherwise, piss off
<sarnold> maxiaojun: sorry. I'm just trying to be helpfu; you're the one who has asked the same question three times without any response.
<sarnold> maxiaojun: most people don't bother responding to questions they don't know about; I thought if you expanded your question to describe what you're talking about (gnome? kde? mimetypes?) you might find someone who does know what you're truing to ask.
<maxiaojun> sarnold: i'm talking about ubuntu proper, which runs unity, i don't think i have to state that explicitly here
<sarnold> maxiaojun: and please note that in american english, "piss off" is much less polite than it might be in british english.
<mlankhorst> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 13.10 released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> saucy | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<mlankhorst> oops :P
<mlankhorst> morning
 * ogra_ sighs ... 
<sconklin> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 13.10 released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> saucy | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: sconklin
<jcastro> ev, what's the vertical scale on the left on errors.ubuntu.com represent, number of errors as a whole or a percentage or .. ?
<ogra_> it represents our ability of drawing shiny bars in CSS :)
<ogra_> (though grey on white is probably not *that* shiny)
<ev> jcastro: the average number of errors per calendar day. This will change to be the weighted average number of errors per calendar day: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker#Calculating_daily_error_rates
<ev> ^ mpt explains the motivation better than I ever could :)
<jibel> cjwatson, latest coreutils fails autopkgtest, I filed bug 1246805 .
<ubottu> bug 1246805 in coreutils (Ubuntu) "autopkgtest failure: du/slink.sh not found" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1246805
<cjwatson> jibel: Yes, I've been working on it for the last hour or so already
<cjwatson> Following the mail
<cjwatson> jibel: I'll apply a different patch, I don't think yours is sufficient
<cjwatson> jibel: If nothing else the list of tests needs to be updated
<cjwatson> And it doesn't handle skipped tests remotely right, so I'm working on a more general update ...
<cjwatson> But thanks for the note
<jibel> cjwatson, thanks. There are 8 tests added to 8.21 but I didn't know if you left them aside on purpose, a quick run of them in our testing env shows that some of them are failing.
<cjwatson> jibel: I just forgot to rescan
<cjwatson> jibel: Can you see why https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Trusty/view/AutoPkgTest/job/trusty-adt-pbuilder/ARCH=amd64,label=adt/6/console is failing?  Are autopkgtests of main packages constrained to use only main for test dependencies for some reason, perhaps?
<dobey> cjwatson: doh. scared me for a second! i thought you were blocking *my* uploads. :)
<infinity> dobey: We are.  Just yours.  For ever.
<dobey> cool. i'll just upload everything as clicks instead
<dobey> and i'll assign all the u1 bugs to infinity :)
<infinity> dobey: If you hate your users, that would work well.
<Noskcaj> Where can i find the source of packages on deb-multimedia? I'm trying to merge some of the remaining packages in ubuntu
<hallyn_> i'm confused by my iptables behavior.  the -w flag was introduced with 1.4.20, and i don't see it in the saucy iptables package source.  but iptables -w works on my saucy host
<hallyn_> oh!  it is there.
<hallyn_> introduced with a horribly named patch under debian/patches
<hallyn_> so drat.  that means upstreams can't use just iptables version numbers to check for -w support
<hallyn_> si there a configure.ac stanza i can use to check whether a command with a particular flag returns 0 or 1?
<hallyn_> hm, maybe AC_PATH_PROGS_FEATURE_CHECK ?
<tarpman> Noskcaj: is deb-src not working for you? the repository does appear to contain the expected Sources files
<tarpman> Noskcaj: e.g., deb-src http://deb-multimedia.org/ unstable main non-free
<Noskcaj> tarpman, It might, i've not tried.
<Noskcaj> There's no way to get it off the website?
<tarpman> sure. http://deb-multimedia.org/pool/main/m/mplayer-dmo/ for example
<jamespage> infinity, point taken about dpkg fix for quantal and raring; its not a specific target so I'm not going to make busy work
<infinity> jamespage: Great, can you just wontfix those tasks, then?
<jamespage> infinity, sure can
<jamespage> (forgot I even raised them)
<seb128> slangasek, do you have bugs open for the compiz issues you mentioned the other day? I found https://bugs.launchpad.net/compiz/+bug/763148 but it seems it should be fixed in the current version (if the launchpad status is correct)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 763148 in Compiz Core "Adding/Removing an external monitor causes open windows to move to another workspace" [Medium,Fix committed]
<slangasek> seb128: hmmm I'll look around for the bug; technically, it's true that bug #763148 is fixed in that windows no longer move between workspaces, but they *do* move around on the workspace instead of maintaining their relative positions
<ubottu> bug 763148 in Compiz Core "Adding/Removing an external monitor causes open windows to move to another workspace" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/763148
<slangasek> seb128: I suspect a separate bug was never opened, because I threw up my hands once things regressed after my previous fix
<seb128> slangasek, ok, having a new bug would be good, the unity7 is wanting to put them on their list for this cycle
<slangasek> ok
#ubuntu-devel 2013-11-01
<sconklin> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 13.10 released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> saucy | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<kirkland> stgraber: I verified https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lxc/+bug/1242913 on each series
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1242913 in lxc (Ubuntu Saucy) "/dev/pts being created with mode=600 by Lxc" [High,Fix committed]
<stgraber> kirkland: ok, can you add verification-done-<series> for each of them then?
<kirkland> stgraber: I did
<kirkland> stgraber: should I remove verification-needed now?  or would you like to?
<stgraber> kirkland: ah yeah, feel free to drop verification-needed then
<stgraber> I'll try and do a SRU run on Monday, at a conference now and usually don't like to release stuff to -updates on Fridays
<kirkland> stgraber: yeah, that's fine
<kirkland> stgraber: done
<elleuca> Trevinho: query :-)
<Noskcaj10> roaksoax, Do you care if testdrive stays as a a quickly program? (it changes how dan and i attempt the gtk3 transition)
#ubuntu-devel 2013-11-02
<hallyn_> kirkland: ^
<psusi> what ever happened to the mtab->/proc/mounts migration?  Last I heard, new installs were supposed to get the symlink, but I reinstalled fairly recently and it's still the file
#ubuntu-devel 2013-11-03
<xnox> infinity: is select() using CLOCK_MONOTONIC_RAW available from 2.6.28, with PPA virt builders still on 2.6.24 and hence out of luck running precise timing tests in trusty chroots? =)
<infinity> xnox: I think you just answered your own question.
<infinity> xnox: Furthermore, I think we discovered that some of the MONOTONIC_ variants don't appear to be hooked up on arm64 yet, so be aware of that.
<xnox> right... thanks =)
<maxiaojun> why ibis-pinyin didn't get updated in saucy?
<maxiaojun> ibus-pinyin
<maxiaojun> ibis-pinyin is a recommends of ubuntu-desktop
<maxiaojun> ibus-pinyin
<maxiaojun> but no one gave a s**t to make sure that it work properly in the new ibus 1.5 environment?
<maxiaojun> ?
<Noskcaj> What's the ubottu command to find what package a file comes from?
<highvoltage> dpkg -S $filename
<Noskcaj> thanks
<siretart> infinity: I'm sure you already noticed, I've uploaded a new merged libav. I think we can sync next time from debian.
#ubuntu-devel 2014-10-27
<slangasek> xnox: context.append(ntp)
<dholbach> good morning
<mvo> pitti: hello! is it ok to use libsystemd-dev in vivid now? it seems to be in vivid-proposed at this point. I'm looking at the dbus and util-linux merge right now
<didrocks> mvo: hey! I think pitti is just landing in frankfurt at this time, not sure he will be available until late today (if any)
<mvo> didrocks: aha, thanks
<Laney> Noskcaj: If you make it final I can copy it from there
<Laney> I used lp:ubuntu-archive-tools copy-package which takes an optional distribution as source
<seb128> dholbach, Noskcaj: I see you synced gnome-system-monitor, I didn't look at it yet but I've a feeling it's going to use GtkHeaderBar/csd and not work under Unity and that it shouldn't have been synced
<dholbach> seb128, ugh, sorry about that
<seb128> dholbach, no worry, but better to be careful with GNOME updates, feel free to let those to desktop if you are unsure
<dholbach> will do
<xnox> slangasek: that was no joke.
<xnox> mvo__: libsystemd-dev is just a combination of all previous libsystemd-daemon-dev, libsystemd-*-dev etc. So in your code you should typically use either or, to stay compatible across old and new style libsystemd library
<xnox> (old was split into many, new one is just a single thing for all things systemd)
<xnox> cjwatson: you almost gave me a heart attack =)
<xnox> cjwatson: you should've started the blog post with "TLDR; UE -> LP" =))))
<xnox> ev++
<xnox> well, it is under UE these days, so I guess UC -> CI is more correct.
<LocutusOfBorg1> xnox, FYI lucene++ built successfully :)
<xnox> LocutusOfBorg1: good =)
 * xnox drops the connection quickly
<xnox> should be connected properly all the time now.
<mlankhorst> hm so far I manually disabled xdiagnose prior to every release to prevent uploading data after release, but it seems the script checks lsb_release -d for 'development', so would it be ok to drop that upload?
<xnox> slangasek: systemd-networkd is a generic provider though. Such that if a different ntp implementation is chosen it should integrate with the provided facility.
<xnox> apw: infinity: initramfs-tools merge - is it going to happen for vivid? otherwise split /usr cannot be booted under systemd in ubuntu, yet can be in debian.
<apw> xnox, i am planning on it, but it remains dependant on the console-setup merge
<xnox> apw: right, yes, i recall that as a blocker
<apw> will bring it up again with those doing that merge, to see where we aer at
<xnox> let's pick a victim.
<xnox> Laney: would you like to finish up console-setup merge? =)
<mdeslaur> xnox: it's was sad not seeing you at the sprint
<xnox> mdeslaur: i know. i was a bit sentimental looking at all the unicorn pictures =(
<xnox> when everyone is next in London we should meet up.
<xnox> Or like sponsor external people to events =)))
<mdeslaur> xnox: your name was mentioned multiple times, you must have subconsciously heard it :)
<xnox> i have tough decisions ahead of me: stay on trusty on 1/3 machines, stay on utopic on 2/3 machines, or upgrade to vivid.
<xnox> this is first time where I have non-devel release machines, feels awkward.
 * ogra_ always has his infrastructure on latest LTS and laptop on latest devel
<mdeslaur> nostalgic for the nosebleeds? :)
<xnox> mdeslaur: i guess i should upload more SRUs to fix things in trusty.
<xnox> mdeslaur: and there are more rpm friendly tools in vivid. e.g. obs-build, zypper, etc.
<xnox> speaking of which i have a pam patch for sudo.
<mdeslaur> oh, huh, obs-build is the suse thing?
<xnox> mdeslaur: yeah, but it can build rpm for any rpm & deb based distros in a chroot (optionally in kvm, or lxc)
<mdeslaur> right...cool
<xnox> well any package for any distro.
<xnox> it's worse than native sbuild, but does the job if one wants to do build for everything.
 * mdeslaur -> reboot
 * mdeslaur grumbles at utopic not mounting nfs at boot
<pitti> Hello
<pitti> Noskcaj: I'm fairly sure that we can sync g-i, but please let me check
<pitti> mvo__: libsystemd-dev> yes indeed, that's a (mini-)transition that I'd like to do ASAP; using it is okay, and I think Debian mostly already did it
<pitti> Noskcaj: yeah, g-i looks fine, and we'll get mvo__'s multiarch fixes \o/
<pitti> wgrant: I approved the templates in https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-rtm/14.09/+source/ciborium/+imports?field.filter_status=all&field.filter_extension=all about a week ago; any idea why the corresponding PO files don't get imported automatically?
<pitti> wgrant: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-rtm/14.09/+source/ciborium/+pots/ciborium has translations now, but it seems there's still a lot sitting in the queue
<pitti> wgrant: I approved the armhf pot and deleted the other arches, but they are waiting on all arches
<dgadomski> cjwatson: hi
<dgadomski> cjwatson: we discussed some ubiquity issues during the sprint, I have reported some bugs about it (#1386113 #1386131 #1386153)
<dgadomski> cjwatson: I would appreciate taking a look at them (there is also the patch you provided attached to the relevant bug)
<xnox> bug 1386113
<ubottu> bug 1386113 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Preseeding encrypted lvm fails with "An error occurred while creating the keyfile"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386113
<xnox> bug 1386131
<ubottu> bug 1386131 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Preseeding encrypted lvm fails instead of asking for password" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386131
<xnox> dgadomski: as i wrote most of the ubitquity bits around it, reviewed your patch. Looks good.
<dgadomski> thanks xnox, all the credit goes to cjwatson, he just passed me this patch off the record to test it
<dgadomski> for some reason ubottu have not picked up #1386153
<cjwatson> xnox: if there's anything you happen to be in a position to do, that would be great, thanks.  I'm on holiday until Wednesday and won't be looking at dgadomski's bugs until then.
<cjwatson> (so not going to be paying much attention here, but seems at least worth saying "not right now" so that potentially others can chime in.)
<geser> do the "Failed upload" errors in vivid-propsed (all universe) need a no-change rebuild to get accepted? or should they get investigated and the package removed once for all instead of (re)moving it each release?
<xnox> cjwatson: ack.
<rbasak> geser: what's the package? Usually you can retry.
<geser> rbasak: e.g. https://launchpadlibrarian.net/188058747/upload_6484807_log.txt (The following files are already published in Primary Archive for Ubuntu)
<geser> or https://launchpadlibrarian.net/188057152/upload_6484759_log.txt
<rbasak> geser: looks like it's some kind of more general issue maybe to do with with the Arch: all move from i386 to amd64.
<rbasak> infinity: ^^
<rbasak> Launchpad seems to think it needs a build, when it doesn't.
<rbasak> Maybe safe to ignore unless infinity says otherwise?
<geser> usually I retry those "Failed to upload" errors but I'm not sure this cases fall into the "Usually" category when I look at the publishing history with the move from utopic-proposed to vivid-proposed
<geser> that's why I ask
<rbasak> geser: I think these ones are "special", and somebody who knows more will come along soon :)
<cjwatson> geser,rbasak: yeah, leave those alone for now, we identified a Launchpad bug here during the opening process with the nominatedarchindep switch, and will be working on fixing it next week
<cjwatson> (briefly, AIUI, it's resolving "architecture independent" to a concrete architecture too early)
<xnox> ogasawara: thanks =)
<ogasawara> xnox: I miss you already :)
<xnox> ogasawara: when are you in London next? Drinks are in order.
<ogasawara> xnox: definitely.  I'm not sure when the next trip is, but I suspect beginning of the year sometime.
<xnox> ogasawara: cool ;-)
<xnox> ogasawara: now on to reading unlocked ancient bug reports =)
<infinity> xnox: It's going to happen.
<infinity> xnox: (re: initramfs-tools merge)
<xnox> infinity: oh, i thought you mean drinks in London. Everyone has been so nice to me lately, i miss hanging out with you.
<xnox> infinity: are you doing the console-setup merge then?
<infinity> xnox: vorlon was doing the merge, but got sidetracked.  One of us will finish it off.
 * xnox ponders if vorlon highlights on vorlon on freenode.
<infinity> xnox: Not sure, but I used the nick intentionally to not highlight. :P
 * infinity goes to find breakfast.
<xnox> infinity: my health advisor says that double espresso and a cigarette do not count as breakfast.
<Riddell> jcastro: what's the best link for an owncloud charm? https://jujucharms.com/precise/owncloud-16/?text=owncloud#summary ?
<infinity> xnox: (a) your health advisor sounds like a twit, (b) I'm going out with another human who eats normal food, so I may follow suit.
<jcastro> Riddle: https://jujucharms.com/precise/owncloud/ will always point to the right place.
<Riddell> jcastro: even once precise is old?
<ogra_> xnox, fix your health advisor ! serves me since years
<ogra_> (you can at least get 44 that way ... proven)
<jcastro> Riddell, we haven't pushed it to trusty yet, but we can do that
<jcastro> Riddell, but to answer your question, yeah that's a canonical URL and won't change
<Riddell> jcastro: great
<jcastro> I'll ask the maintainer to push it to trusty asap as well
<jcastro> I wasn't aware we hadn't done that
<slangasek> infinity, xnox: I have the merge done and building, but it needs some iteration to check for regressions... and it needs installer changes, so I want to test quite a bit before uploading
<slangasek> infinity, xnox: and yes, I highlight on vorlon here, so thbbt ;)
<xnox> slangasek: alright, what about the UTC patches for the installer authored by you. I don't recall those getting fixed up based on Colin's feedback. and getting merged.
<slangasek> xnox: correct, they haven't been yet; the screams have been muted post-14.04 release, so it fell down the priority list
<slangasek> xnox: btw, do you want some of these 14.10 plymouth regressions assigned to you? :)
<xnox> slangasek: I'd like to still look into flickerless boot regresion, but i'm not that optimistic about it.
<xnox> slangasek: are there more? which apw didn't fix yet?
<slangasek> xnox: I think being unable to enter passphrases at boot time is a higher priority regression than flicker (which, btw, apw has said vt.handoff support is still there somewhere)
<xnox> slangasek: i thought apw's upload fixed the passphrase bug.
<apw> yep confirmed that patch is still in there
<slangasek> xnox: bug #1386005, bug #1383851, bug #1370707
<ubottu> bug 1386005 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "Password not accepted graphical boot for encrypted root system" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386005
<ubottu> bug 1383851 in linux (Ubuntu) "Cannot enter LVM encryption password in qemu with -vga std" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1383851
<ubottu> bug 1370707 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "Plymouth does not display the graphical boot splash" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1370707
<xnox> not funny =(
<slangasek> xnox: apw's upload fixed *a* passphrase bug
<apw> xnox, i fixed one of them, where the passphrase was being missreported/not reported back to the plymouth client
<slangasek> the one where you enter the password and the plymouth client mishandles it
<slangasek> but there are bugs where the splash screen doesn't show up, bugs where it shows up but you can't enter text, ...
<xnox> slangasek: so i had locally stashed patches to askpass to use proper plymouth apis, instead of stdin/stdout redirects. I can check if that performs any better.
<slangasek> bugs where you can enter text in text mode over the top of the splash screen
<apw> the vga one seems to be triggered by plymouth only opening tty7 when it sees boot_vga on the /sys/* files for the device
<xnox> apw: correct, i configure plymouth for tty7 only at compile time.
<apw> if i am reading plymouth right
<xnox> i guess i should upgrade my work laptop to 14.10 to justify fixing all of these.
<apw> xnox, right, but it seems to only allow a "seat" to use the "terminal" for input when it sees a sysfs file of boot_vga flag set on the frambuffer etc
<apw> which for efi it does not seem to be
<xnox> oh uefi interraction bugs. *sigh*
<slangasek> does that include the case where we're getting EFI/VGA in /proc/fb despite not booting with EFI?
<sage__> Does Ubuntu still use upstart as its init service
<infinity> sage__: For now, yes,.
<sage__> Is there a definitive answer for when we will have a systemd release?
<coreycb> infinity: can ipxe-proposed get moved to trusty-updates?
<coreycb> infinity, sorry... ipxe-precise
<hallyn> infinity: sorry, i may have misunderstood what you said last week.  thought you were pushing it out of NEW, but maybe you were talking about the other pkgs.  are we supposed to ask someone else for a review?
<infinity> coreycb: That would require it being in proposed first.
<infinity> hallyn: I can do the review, though I'm off today.
<infinity> hallyn: Will I find that a debdiff from ipxe/precise to ipxe-precise/trusty is tiny, readable, and obvious?
<infinity> hallyn: If so, I can give that a once-over this afternoon.
<coreycb> infinity, I thought it was in proposed but maybe I'm not reading it right https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+queue?queue_state=0&queue_text=
<hallyn> it should be very obvious, lemme take a look
<infinity> coreycb: In the queue isn't in the archive.
<coreycb> infinity, k
<hallyn> infinity: yup, debdiff is short and simple
<mhall119> ogasawara slangasek mdeslaur will you be able to be a track lead again for the Ubuntu Development track of UOS?
<mdeslaur> mhall119: I don't think the security team had a track last time, as we figures we were better off attending other team's tracks
<mdeslaur> s/figures/figured/
<slangasek> mhall119: yes
<mhall119> mdeslaur: not a security track, just ubuntu development in general
<mhall119> thanks slangasek
<mhall119> mdeslaur: I just need people who help round up sessions from other people and get them on the schedule
<mdeslaur> mhall119: let me get back to you
<mhall119> mdeslaur: ok, thanks
<hallyn> if i mark a bug as invalid in lp, does it still show up in normal search results?
<brendand> hallyn, by default no - 'closed' states don't appear
<hallyn> ok, thanks, i'll leave the bug in incomplete state then for ahile (maybe someone else will come along and report the same symptoms)
<Noskcaj> Laney, If you're still around, what options do you use for copy-package?
<zerick> Anybodoy familiar with start-stop-daemon functions? I'm trying to start something that uses a port, but it never open that port :/
<MasterPiece> check for permissions
#ubuntu-devel 2014-10-28
<pitti> Good morning
<MasterPieceZ> moin pitti
<pitti> infinity: I encountered some installability failures due to packages now relying on versioned provides; apparently that's implemented in a newer dpkg
<pitti> infinity: are you planning to merge dpkg soon (TIL), or want me to look at this?
<dholbach> good morning
<seb128> dobey, hey, is bug #1367017 something you plan to look at? it's on top of e.u.c for utopic
<ubottu> bug 1367017 in software-center (Ubuntu) "After update to 14.10, update-software-center crashed with AttributeError in __getattr__(): When using gi.repository you must not import static modules like "gobject". Please change all occurrences of "import gobject" to "from gi.repository import GObject". " [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1367017
<seb128> bdmurray, do you know if https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/355fe44c2df7fde28f2a6be90875fdd39632eee4 hits an e.u.c or apport bug?
<seb128> the traceback is
<seb128> "TypeError: string argument expected, got 'bytes'"
<seb128> but that seems to be rather e.u.c failing to display the bt
<pitti> not sure, but I've seen actual python exceptions that look like this
<seb128> pitti, they would have a sourcefile/code/function indication though no?
<pitti> seb128: that's what I mean with "like this" -- no traceback, just the exception
<pitti> it's weird indeed
<seb128> weird
<pitti> very unlikely to be an e.u.c. bug; could be an apport bug, but I suspect the error just simply looks like that
<seb128> k
<seb128> so python bug?
<pitti> or something in s-c-p intercepts the exception and does something like print(str(e))
<pitti> (which is not that uncommon)
<seb128> right
<seb128> pitti, thanks
<seb128> pitti, btw have you seen the s-c bug I just mentioned, is that something than changed in pygobject/an actual bug, or is that a warning that turns out to do e.u.c "spamming"?
<seb128> bug #1361829 is high on the errors list with a similar issue
<ubottu> bug 1361829 in unity-webapps-googleplus (Ubuntu) "update-desktop-file-unity-webapps-googleplus.py crashed with AttributeError in __getattr__(): When using gi.repository you must not import static modules like "gobject". Please change all occurrences of "import gobject" to "from gi.repository import GObject". See: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709183" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1361829
<pitti> seb128: s-c-p was ported to py3 last cycle, so I figure it's an actual bug
<seb128> pitti, that's software-center, not s-c-p?
<pitti> seb128: the webapps one seems entirely different from the bytes vs. string conversion though?
<pitti> seb128: ah, or that, sorry :)
<pitti> seb128: no, https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/355fe44c2df7fde28f2a6be90875fdd39632eee4 is s-c-p
<seb128> pitti, sorry, I was refering to my ping to dobey from half an hour ago
<seb128> pitti, s-c didn't change in utopic afaik
<pitti> right
<tsdgeos> ogra_: congratulations sir!
<seb128> pitti, right, s-c didn't change at all, same revision in trusty and utopic
<seb128> so it's coming from pygobject
<ogra_> thanks tsdgeos !
<seb128> well, it might be right to warn, but that creates errors noise :/
<pitti> seb128: no, it's not a warning, it's a grave error
<pitti> the warning was improved to make debugging easier
<pitti> as otherwise it leads to random segfaults and similar
<seb128> pitti, k, I wonder why we didn't get more reports from trusty if that's such an import error
<seb128> s-c reports are quite low on trusty
<seb128> and the code didn't change at all, not even a no change rebuild since
<pitti> well, apparenlty it just happens to work then just in this case; but this imports glib/gobject etc. libraries twice, which is bound to fail
<pitti> (i. e. it might just occur "randomly" if a library dependency changes, etc.)
<seb128> right
<seb128> dbarth, hey, you/your team is working on unity-webapps-* right? could you look at bug #1361829
<ubottu> bug 1361829 in unity-webapps-googleplus (Ubuntu) "update-desktop-file-unity-webapps-googleplus.py crashed with AttributeError in __getattr__(): When using gi.repository you must not import static modules like "gobject". Please change all occurrences of "import gobject" to "from gi.repository import GObject". See: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709183" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1361829
<seb128> dbarth, they are similar reports for the different webapps, that's ranked quite high on e.u.c
<mvo_> pitti: quick question about the command-not-found blacklisting of postgres-xc  - it seems there are a bunch of additional postgres-xc-{client,...} packages, do we care about those as well ?
<mvo_> pitti: care about blacklisting them I mean of course
<pitti> mvo_: no, those should be fine as postgresql-common wraps the client-side programs
<pitti> mvo_: but indeed the "initdb" program has the same issue, i. e. we should blacklist that in addition to pg_ctl
<pitti> mvo_: bug title updated
<dbarth> seb128: yes
<dbarth> seb128: seen it, i assigned it now
<seb128> dbarth, thanks
<dbarth> seb128: the scripts choke on the gobject import
<seb128> dbarth, right, should be easy to fix/change
<dbarth> yeah; that's transitionary code that should be removed mostly
<seb128> yeah, I was thinking that
<seb128> those migrations scripts are probably not required anymore
<seb128> maybe just drop them
<dbarth> nope
<dbarth> right
<brainwash> can anyone help with a package which is stuck in trusty-proposed? bug 1377612
<ubottu> bug 1377612 in Xfce4 weather plugin "[SRU] Plugin needs updated for locationforecast-1.2" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1377612
<smb> Hm, is anybody already working on adding vivid to Trusty's dist-info-data?
<pitti> smb: it's already there
<pitti> at least I got it in a dist-upgrade
<smb> pitti, hm... I just looked and only saw ubuntu0.1 which added Utopic...
<pitti> smb: oh wait, sorry, that was debootstrap
<pitti> right, I meant https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debootstrap/1.0.59ubuntu0.2
<smb> pitti, Ah... yeah. I made a source pkg for distro-info-data. But not sure it is done right
<smb> pitti, would you be able to have a look and sponsor if ok?
<Laney> I already did a patch for it
<Laney> check the queue
<smb> hm... cannot find it in https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=distro-info-data
<Laney> the sponsor queue
<pitti> brainwash: I asked elfy in #u-quality whether his comment 21 was testing the proposed package
<smb> ah, sorry
<pitti> brainwash: there's no other feedback on the update
<Laney> I could just upload to proposed and let them copy to security I guess
<pitti> -updates you mean? it's ceratinly not a -security thing?
<Laney> look at the existing update
<brainwash> pitti: so, someone needs to add a comment and state that he tested the trusty package, right?
<pitti> brainwash: yes
<brainwash> pitti: alright, thanks
<brainwash> pitti: a comment has been added to the report
<brainwash> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xfce4-weather-plugin/+bug/1377612/comments/40
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1377612 in Xfce4 weather plugin "[SRU] Plugin needs updated for locationforecast-1.2" [Medium,Confirmed]
<pitti> cheers
<mgedmin> incidentally, why is chromium-browser in utopic older than in trusty?  http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=chromium-browser
<mgedmin> utopic has 37.0.2062.94, trusty has 37.0.2062.120
<Riddell> pitti: any tech board meeting today?
<pitti> Riddell: yes, should be at 17:00 UTC
<geser> mvo_: Hi, I see that you synced snappy and dropped the changes to make LP accept the upload (ancient timestamps). Are you going to re-add them or should I do it?
<mvo_> geser: oh, that sounds like a mistake somewhere (probably me :/ - is it the touch in the rules file that is required for LP?
<geser> yes
<geser> it's needed for "libsnappy-dev_1.1.2-3_amd64.deb: has 2 file(s) with a time stamp too far in the past (e.g. usr/share/doc/libsnappy-dev/NEWS.gz [Mon Dec 31 23:00:00 1979])."
<mvo_> geser: either way, i can fix but if you want to i'm happy too :)
<geser> I would need a sponsor for it anyway
<mvo_> ok, let me fix it then, thanks for letting me know and sorry for the trouble
<dobey> seb128: i didn't know about that issue until just now. afaik, nobody is working on software-center. and distro-info-data apparently needs updated on trusty before pull-lp-source will work
<seb128> dobey, there is a sru waiting on http://launchpadlibrarian.net/188495410/distro-info-data_0.18ubuntu0.2_source.changes
<seb128> dobey, but s-c didn't change at all in utopic so you can get the trusty version through apt-get
<dobey> right. i was trying to pull it off vivid, since i'll have to upload there first anyway
<smoser> hey. so i have /var/crash/_usr_lib_unity_unity-panel-service.1000.crash .
<smoser> dialog pops up, asks me if i want to submit, i say yes.
<smoser> then nothing
<smoser> is this functioning as designed ?
<smoser> i'd like to see the bug it created.
<smoser> same thing happens when i run 'ubuntu-bug /var/crash/_usr_lib_unity_unity-panel-service.1000.crash'
<smoser> pitti, ^ do you know ? sorry for personal ping
<pitti> smoser: it reports to errors.u.cc.
<pitti> smoser: reporting to Launchpad bugs got disabled for final utopic release, as usual
<smoser> ok. i thougth that might be the case.
<smoser> might be useful to tell the user that ?
<pitti> well, it does
<pitti> never it says "Launchpad bug" or anythign :)
<smoser> ok. yeah, i guess. it just doesn't say "i did it" but rather "do you want me to do it".
<smoser> so lets say i wanted to see this bug. where do i do that ?
<smoser> https://errors.ubuntu.com/?release=Ubuntu%2014.10&package=unity-services&period=day tells me "no data to display"
<pitti> 2014.10?
<pitti> oh, %20, nevermind
<mdeslaur> arges: hi! could you please take a look at the dovecot sru in the precise queue?
<pitti> smoser: unsure, it might take a while to get processed?
<arges> mdeslaur: sure. i'm working my way through the queues right now
<smoser> pitti, thanks.
<mdeslaur> arges: awesome, thanks :)
<pitti> smoser: do you have a /var/crash/_usr_lib_unity_unity-panel-service.1000.uploaded?
<smoser> yes
<smoser> oh wait.
<smoser> i have .upload
<smoser> but not .uploaded
<pitti> ah, then whoopsie didn't get to uploading it yet
<pitti> /var/log/upstart/whoopsie.log might say why
<smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/8719453/
<pitti> bdmurray: ^ ?
<smoser> well, 'sudo restart whoopsie'
<smoser> got me to /var/log/upstart/whoopsie.log with: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8719461/
<smoser> and got a .uploaded file.
<smoser> but that doesn't really help me for the 2 things i'd hope to get out of this..
<smoser> a.) i want to see the bug fixed.
<smoser> well, i guess thats the only one. but i'd like ot subscribe to the bug.
<smoser> pitti, i think i found it. i was being too specific with 'the package'. it is souce package.
<smoser> https://errors.ubuntu.com/?release=Ubuntu%2014.10&package=unity&period=week&pkg_arch=amd64
<pitti> smoser: ah right, it is
<arges> mdeslaur: for bug 1384355, there is an SRU to remove it from trusty/utopic. did you have any additional concerns/comments about this? I've read the thread on ubuntu-devel
<ubottu> bug 1384355 in owncloud (Ubuntu) "ownCloud should be removed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1384355
<mdeslaur> arges: not really, no. the approach Riddell took is fine by me. Nobody volunteered to take over maintenance, so I guess that's the best solution.
<Riddell> arges: just needs someone from the ~ubuntu-sru team brave enough to approve it
<arges> Riddell: yea, that's what i'm reviewing now : )
<Riddell> yay
<arges> Riddell: one thing is if its serving up this temporary php webpage, will it still need any of the deps like php5?
<arges> Riddell: or i guess what would happen if I had a clean install of ubuntu-server; installed this package; how do I get the notification to use the upstream packages or juju?
<Riddell> arges: I remove the dependencies didn't I?
<Riddell> arges: it still installs the apache config so you can still browse to it and see the message
<arges> Riddell: but the package has no dependencies now; so If you install it (without having the old package) how would you see those messages if you don't have those deps installed
<Riddell> arges: apt-cache show owncloud will show you, message in /usr/share/doc/owncloud/README.Debian too
<arges> you can't guarantee that apache2 | httpd, are installed
<Riddell> I can add back apache2 | httpd if you think that would be better
<arges> Riddell: ok so in the case of a new install from archive, we will have to assume the user will look at README.Debian or the apt-cache output
<arges> Riddell: well i'm just thinking through it.
<arges> so it handles two cases: 1) they have old package installed, and go to web portal which tells them to install through upstream.  2) they have a fresh install and we hope they read the messages somewhere in the package description, apt-cache, or README telling them to get the upstream version
<bdmurray> seb128: I'd think an apport bug given that when you go to an individual problem page it is truncated there too.
<Riddell> arges: yep
<arges> Riddell: ok seems reasonable
<Riddell> arges: I don't know what's common practice in empty SRUs like this, probably there is no common practice
<Riddell> but it feels kindae wrong to install apache for an empty package
<arges> Riddell: yea, i'd like to get a second opinion. i'll see if I can get somebody else to review too then i'd be happy accepting it
<ricotz> hi, is it known the aptitude cant retrieve changelogs again?
<mvo_> ricotz: what package(s) ?
<mvo_> ricotz: i.e. how can I reproduce?
<ricotz> mvo_, i would say all of them ;) (i know only official ubuntu archive ones should work)
<mvo_> does anyone care about python-couchdb ? I would like to sync the debian version
<ricotz> mvo_, select a package and "Shift+C"
<mvo_> ricotz: right, I think I can reproduce this - just to double check "apt-get changelog pkgname" for the same package works, right?
<ricotz> mvo_, yes
<mvo_> thanks
<mvo_> ricotz: could you please report a bug so that we can SRU a fix?
<ricotz> mvo_, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/aptitude/+bug/1386737
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1386737 in aptitude (Ubuntu) "Changelogs not retrievable" [Undecided,New]
<mvo_> ricotz: thanks!
<Laney> This libtool dependency shuffling...
<Laney> should dh-autoreconf depend on libtool-bin now?
<infinity> pitti: I was intentionally holding off for a bit, as the Debian uploads had been frequent and bugfixy.
<pitti> infinity: ah, ok; that's fine, I just wanted to know the status
<infinity> pitti: Though, people jumping on the versioned provides bandwagon as soon as the feature exists seems misguided.  Whee.
<pitti> infinity: yeah, I agree; and I still think it's a bad idea in the first place :/
<pitti> this is way too prone to errors
<infinity> pitti: Aaand, more regression fixes over the weekend.  I think I'll let dpkg bake a tiny bit longer. ;)
<pitti> infinity: ack :)
<pitti> infinity: something else; bug 1381656, is that something that ought to be fixed in Debian, or is that file ubuntu specific?
<ubottu> bug 1381656 in glibc (Ubuntu) "obsolete config: /etc/ld.so.conf.d/i686-linux-gnu.conf" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1381656
<rbasak> What's the new feature, OOI?
<pitti> rbasak: versioned provides
<infinity> pitti: Possibly Ubuntu-specific, since we build for a different target.
<rbasak> Ah
<pitti> AFAIK, if you have
<pitti> Package: foo
<pitti> Version: 3
<pitti> Provides: somefoo
<pitti> then you can have "Depends: somefoo (>= 2)" and foo would satisfy this
<infinity> pitti: To be fair, internally, provides were always versioned, but the version was 0. :P
<rbasak> That's nice, although it feels like a binary package version shouldn't be tied to the version of the virtual thing that it provides?
<pitti> but foo/1 wouldn't satisfy this (that's the real new thing)
<pitti> rbasak: yeah, that's the "brittle" part that I don't like
<rbasak> I'd have done it as "Provides: somefoo (=3)" or something
<infinity> That's how it's done.
<infinity> pitti: What gives you the idea it's using the non-provided version?
<pitti> the above is the case that I saw this morning
<pitti> meeting, bbl
<infinity> rbasak: It's implemented exactly as you think it should be. :P
<rbasak> infinity: nice :)
<sergiusens> pitti: hey, is there a way to run adt tests for a deb from local sources?
<pitti> sergiusens: yes (in meeting); see https://people.debian.org/~mpitt/autopkgtest/README.running-tests.html
<pitti> sergiusens: can help you in a bit after meeting
<sergiusens> pitti: I'll follow the docs, was using https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/AutomatedTesting/AutoPackageTesting though
<sergiusens> thanks
<pitti> sergiusens: ah thanks, I'll remove that; it's obsoleted by the autopkgtest docs and http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/auto-pkg-test.html
<pitti> sergiusens: wiki page updated; meeting done, do you still have questions/trouble?
<pitti> sergiusens: and yes, you can test a local .deb, a local .dsc, or both
<pitti> sergiusens: or a local source package dir (built or unbuilt)
<pitti> mvo__: thanks for fixing bug 1384864!
<ubottu> bug 1384864 in command-not-found (Ubuntu Vivid) "Please blacklist pg_ctl and initdb" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1384864
<pitti> mvo__: OOI, how do you do that? manually editing scan.data after scanning, or is there a more clever way? (I'm looking at https://launchpadlibrarian.net/188488665/command-not-found_0.3ubuntu15_0.3ubuntu15.1.diff.gz)
<pitti> infinity, kees, mdeslaur, stgraber, slangasek: TB meeting reminder (6 mins)
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> who's chair today?
<infinity> Oh whee, I'm chair.  I get to remind myself how to use the bot again.
 * ogra_ sits down on infinity to test that claim
<ogra_> not so comfortable ...
<infinity> Ow.
<ogra_> you need some more stuffing :)
<infinity> I have plenty, thanks.
<ogra_> heh
<infinity> pitti: I assume we still have the conflict that forces us to #-meeting-2?
<pitti> infinity: according to http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/ yes (kernel team meeting)
<sergiusens> pitti: I think I can take it from here, still setting up anyways; thanks!
<pitti> hm, why isn't the TB meeting on this any more -- it used to
 * rbasak didn't realise the TB was DST-compliant
<infinity> kees: Joining us in #-meeting-2?
<kees> infinity: yup, almost there
<pitti> rbasak: we are all on the nothern hemisphere, so much better that way (we pinned to London time instead of UTC)
<rbasak> Makes sense.
<pitti> bdmurray: FTR, I updated lp-retracer-config for vivid and rolled out to LP retracers; I figure daisy needs some similar treatment
<bdmurray> pitti: thanks, is there any reason not to turn on crash reporting to Errors earlier than we usually do?
<pitti> bdmurray: we never disable crash reporting to errors
<pitti> bdmurray: only to launchpad
<pitti> bdmurray: (for stables) ^
<pitti> bdmurray: responded to bug 1365079
<ubottu> bug 1365079 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport should gather package information about click packages" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1365079
<dpm> pitti, do you know who could do a sync from a utopic package to rtm while Colin is away?
<pitti> dpm: any archive admin can do that (me too)
<Laney> Anyone who can upload in fact
<pitti> oh, even better
<Laney> (AIUI)
<ogra_> dpm, note that nothing is allowed to enter rtm without being on ollis list
<ogra_> (except langpacks i think)
<dpm> ok, I'll talk to olli, thanks ogra_ and everyone
<ogra_> (and you will need QA signoff too)
<slangasek> why are my terminal fonts a complete disaster after a system restart in 14.10?
<slangasek> in fact, something seems to have changed mozilla's theming too
<sladen> slangasek: /usr/share/glib-2.0/schemas/ubuntu-artwork.gschema.overide ?
<sladen> slangasek: ... just a guess, but if you're seeing multiple things changed, it could be the whole set of default-overrides missing
<slangasek> hmm.  unity-settings-daemon was running but not working correctly
<slangasek> so killall unity-settings-daemon, and my terminal fonts are suddenly not eyebleeding
<ari-tczew> I'm trying to upload a source package to vivid-proposed.
<ari-tczew> $ dput ubuntu:vivid-proposed gnome-shell-extensions_3.14.1-1ubuntu1_source.changes
<ari-tczew> However, files have been uploaded to utopic-proposed
<ari-tczew> what's wrong?
<Bluefoxicy> okay so is there a tool to reverse the update from 14.04 to 14.10
<Bluefoxicy> because there was no warning on 14.10 that it was mid-development
<Bluefoxicy> and everything is broken in this release
<ari-tczew> Bluefoxicy: new, fresh install the best. for such questions better please ask on #ubuntu
<TheMuso> ari-tczew: Um, I ddn't think you could upload to a release like that, I thought the release you wanted the upload for needs to be mentioned in the changes file.
<Bluefoxicy> okay well, entering #ubuntu is the most useless thing anyone can evere do
<Bluefoxicy> so I'll just file a bug "It doesn't work and I have no idea why, nor any way to collect any information explaining why.  Good luck."
<ari-tczew> Bluefoxicy: so good luck while waiting for constructive response.
<ari-tczew> TheMuso: Right, there was a problem. thnx :-)
<Bluefoxicy> ari-tczew:  there is no way to get constructive information
<Bluefoxicy> it's broken, and there's no debug output, and no information on the internet, and everyone says "LOL HTML5 VIDEO INSTALL FLASH???"
<Bluefoxicy> That's the type of constructive response I got from #ubuntu
<Bluefoxicy> "HTML5 video doesn't play" "Have you installed Flash?"
 * ari-tczew is leaving topic as won't fixed.
<sladen> Bluefoxicy: what exact URL does not player, in what exact browser?
<Bluefoxicy> sladen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHMmMgdcOSU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_FFF3wgfh8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNL72qFc_ew https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN7O9gM-lvc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSLUXkfm9b8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fouoxaWGFng
<Bluefoxicy> sladen:  do not play in Chromium-browser.  They were playing in 14.04; they're mostly open because they were open in 14.04 and Chromium re-opens tabs when it restarts.
<Bluefoxicy> If I click and scroll and such, I can scroll through the video to any frame in the video
<Bluefoxicy> The ads don't play either.
<Bluefoxicy> I tried apt-get remove --purge chromium-browser, removing ~/.config/chromium, and then re-installing chromium-browser and starting up again with no config in my user directory and with the system config purged and recreated
<Bluefoxicy> that didn't fix it.
<Bluefoxicy> I'm out of troubleshooting actions :|
<Bluefoxicy> I can't gather any information on why it's behaving this way, I can't find anything online about it, and I can't get a proper result with a cleared configuration.  This is bang-your-head-against-the-wall territory.
<Bluefoxicy> watch
<Bluefoxicy> I'll be the only person in the world this is happening to
<geofft> I've seen that behavior before but I forget what caused it.
<geofft> I did once have chromium-codecs-ffmpeg* out of sync with chromium-browser itself, which caused somethings to be sad
<geofft> but I think the symptoms were different.
<Bluefoxicy> geofft:  have you also seen the behavior of "Activities view hangs gnome-shell for 5 seconds, or possibly crashes it" too?  because that happens too.
<geofft> no, but now I'm suspecting your libGL...
<Bluefoxicy> Upgrading from 14.04 to 14.10 didn't really bring anything new except a slew of brokenness.  It should have been called do-release-update, because "upgrade" implies making it better.
#ubuntu-devel 2014-10-29
<Bluefoxicy> geofft:  I checked for updates and patches and fixes.  14.04 wasn't this broke, and it had hundreds of updates in the first week or so. This has been a dead stick; no patches coming down.  I am completely up to date.  :|
<Bluefoxicy> oh, and I'm using an Intel core i5 with Intel HD 3000 graphics
<Bluefoxicy> If anything should not be broken, it's the Intel graphics driver :|
<JanC> Bluefoxicy: keep dreaming  :p
<Bluefoxicy> Seriously this is like when people had XP and installed Vista.  I was like "ahahaha I have Ubuntu over here"
<JanC> (Intel driver did break several tbefore)
<Bluefoxicy> and now I'm like A*<#AG<Y(%I#(CT#<IU)(#$C
<JanC> *times*
<Bluefoxicy> Gnome keeps forgetting my keymap, so I have to go load something else and then delete it to get dvorak back
<JanC> but not sure this is what's happening here
<Bluefoxicy> oh and then I get a pop-up dialog telling me I have multiple input methods installed and that it doesn't know what to do with my config.
<JanC> do you?
<JanC> (do you use multiple input methods?)
<Bluefoxicy> JanC:  I mean like... ibus and imx or such
<Bluefoxicy> it's found 2 different installed back-ends to type in Gapanese or Arab or something.
<JanC> so, any reason why you have 2?
<Bluefoxicy> Think of it like having SystemD and upstart both running
<Bluefoxicy> no, no reason I have 2.  I wound up with 2 during the 14.04 to 14.10 upgrade and don't know why.
<JanC> likely you had 2 before?
<JanC> or maybe ibus got pulled in while you had another one
<Bluefoxicy> Possibly.  Not sure how I got 2 in the first place.  I know how I got 1:  I had set up the keyboard a year ago to type japanese
 * Bluefoxicy eats a pork chop.
<Bluefoxicy> I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've actually regretted upgrading my OS.  Ever.
<Bluefoxicy> oh
<Bluefoxicy> my god.
<Bluefoxicy> JanC:  it's sound.
<Bluefoxicy> Rhythmbox hangs.  VLC won't play sound, but plays video.  Flash plays video, but no sound.
<Bluefoxicy> http://pastie.org/9682073
<Bluefoxicy> so is this bad?
<Bluefoxicy> seems like an occasion to reboot, to me
<Bluefoxicy> Yeah... that's bad.
<hyperair> what's the colour of the default ubuntu tty?
<hyperair> i mean the actual tty, not gnome-termianl
<infinity> hyperair: Black?
<hyperair> okay
<hyperair> i'm still sane.
<hyperair> still sane
<hyperair> *deep breaths*
<infinity> Doesn't sound like it...
 * infinity backs away slowly.
<hyperair> 11:00:14 <bonsaikitten> ubuntu just lacks basic QA
<hyperair> 11:00:35 <hyperair> :/
<hyperair> 11:00:39 <bonsaikitten> e.g. their black is still broken, startup flickers in ways that suggest no one cares, and distro upgrade usually self-destructs
<hyperair> 11:00:44 <hyperair> black?
<hyperair> 11:00:52 <bonsaikitten> yeah, black is purple
<hyperair> deep calming breaths
<hyperair> must not rage
<hyperair> must not flip tables
<rww> > gentoo developer
<rww> > complaining about upgrade stability
<rww> hrm.
<infinity> hyperair: I'd love bug reports for the last thing.
<hyperair> rww: lol! i didn't notice!
<geofft> also it's not purple, it's aubergine. please.
<hyperair> :)
<infinity> hyperair: I mean, assuming he's interested in being constructive instead of just slagging Ubuntu for kicks.
<RAOF> GRUB's background is aubergine, which is what most people will be seeing for most of the boot...
<hyperair> infinity: unfortunately i haven't been able to reproduce the distro upgrading self-destructing issue, because once i'm done, it's kinda... gone..
<hyperair> infinity: and i'm just stuck picking up the pieces with dpkg --configure -a
<hyperair> and apt-get install -f
<hyperair> and aptitude install -f
<hyperair> i ran those commands almost 20 times, each time upgrading 200 packages or so
<infinity> hyperair: There are logs from the upgrade, generally.  The first failure is the interesting one.
<hyperair> whera?
<hyperair> where*
<infinity> hyperair: In your experience, is this with update-manager/do-release-upgrade, or raw apt-get?
<hyperair> infinity: do-release-upgrade bails halfwya
<hyperair> it's done that for the past few distro upgrades for me
<hyperair> but this time was particularly bad, because apt-get install -f wouldn't budge
<hyperair> a bunch of odd broken packages here and there
<hyperair> aptitude install -f did work
<infinity> Kay.  It leaves a log somewhere (I forget the precise name) when it explodes.
<hyperair> but even that only managed to move 200 packages or so
<infinity> I wonder if we could get away with taking "anonymous usage statistics" that grabbed people's package lists.
<hyperair> and then it bailed again a few times due to broken postinst or something
<infinity> Cause testing random upgrade paths is nice, but doesn't simulate real users.
<hyperair> infinity: cue: ubuntu IS SPYWARE
<infinity> hyperair: Yeah.
<hyperair> god fucking damnit
<ScottK> Well once you start sending local search results to remote servers by default, you can't blame people for being suspicious.
<hyperair> yeah well, it's a little hard to benefit from hive-mind optimization without sending local search results to remote servers.
<JanC> infinity: if you ask the users nicely, probably
<Logan_> is it okay to forward patches to debian for build-depending on libappindicator-dev for indicator support? they do have that package as well
<pitti> Good morning
<hyperair> Logan_: it depends.
<hyperair> Logan_: debian does have libappindicator
<hyperair> but most people don't use it, and more importantly, it breaks the UX on DEs that use GtkStatusIcon
<Logan_> ah, I see
<hyperair> i mean the standard notification area
<Logan_> so a given Debian maintainer probably wouldn't accept the patch?
<Logan_> and I should keep the delta?
<hyperair> i know appindicator has some fallback that stuffs itself into the notification area, but it clobbers left click launch, and launches the menu on left click
<Logan_> well that's wonderful :P
<hyperair> it depends. don't file a bug, just try looking for the maintainer directly
<Logan_> he orphaned the package
<hyperair> oh lol
<hyperair> then it's up to qa.debian.org
<hyperair> which package is this?
<Logan_> flush
<Logan_> some obscure Bittorrent client
<hyperair> heh i see
<hyperair> is upstream still alive?
<Logan_> idk, I like forwarding things whenever possible
<Logan_> no, it's inactive
<hyperair> you could try forwarding
<Logan_> I guess the worst that could happen is they don't accept the patch
<hyperair> yeah
<Logan_> usually Debian gets mad if we forward things without justification, though
<hyperair> not Debian in general, but some maintainers
<Logan_> yes, I should've clarified that
<ScottK> If it's orphaned and dead upstream, removal is more likely the right move.
<hyperair> true that
<Logan_> the Git repo hasn't been touched in two years
<Logan_> it's marked as inactive on Sourceforge
<Logan_> and it doesn't even support magnet links :P
<hyperair> Logan_: with my DD hat on, i'd say that the first time a dumb patch is uploaded, i'd reject it with an explanation. and the following times, possibly without an explanation
<Logan_> if it's orphaned, do I have to ask for approval from QA before filing for removal in Debian?
<hyperair> hmm
<ScottK> Logan_: In Debian, the QA team is everyone.
<Logan_> so I can ask myself
<hyperair> i don't think there's any prereq for filing for removal
<ScottK> Yes.
<hyperair> check popcon
<hyperair> some users might get annoyed
<hyperair> but that could be a good thing
<ScottK> Then they can maintain it.
<Logan_> :D
 * hyperair has stepped up as maintainer for things that have been RM'd before
<hyperair> mostly out of rage
<hyperair> like NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DON'T REMOVE THIS I STILL WANT IT
<Logan_> I was so surprised when they removed compiz
<ScottK> Take your motivation where you can get it.
<hyperair> indeed
<hyperair> wait
<hyperair> compiz was removed?
<hyperair> seriously?
<Logan_> yep
<hyperair> =\
<hyperair> meh
<Tribaal> huh
<hyperair> whatever floats their boat.
<Logan_> they said it was dead upstream I believe
<Logan_> which is BS
<hyperair> is it still maintained?
<hyperair> smspillaz has retired from compiz iirc
<goodwill> compiz is not dead?
<Logan_> it's definitely still being developed
<hyperair> afaik it's an undead state
<hyperair> unity's moving away from compiz
<hyperair> and after what canonical's done to compiz, it's probably just going to die without unity's support
 * hyperair shrugs
<Logan_> there's now an ITP for compiz in Debian
<Logan_> that's amusing
<goodwill> http://cgit.compiz.org/?s=idle
<goodwill> or is somewhere else now?
<goodwill> last change anywhere was 5 months and compiz core has not been updated in 3 years
<hyperair> Logan_: that typically happens with RM'd packages.
<hyperair> Logan_: i think it happened for aircrack also
<hyperair> goodwill: bzr possibly
<hyperair> because canonical loves bzr
<goodwill> I've been meaning to ask does anyone else use bzr? what is it about bzr that Canonical loves
<goodwill> hmmm ... I guess it is not dead
<goodwill> how nice
<hyperair> hmm, i think emacs used to use bzr
<Logan_> I think they haven't switched to Git because it would require changing the whole LP infrastructure
<hyperair> then they moved to git
<hyperair> like every other sane project ;-)
<infinity> We're working on git in LP, it's just not done yet.
<Logan_> there's nothing special about Bazaar, other than that it's backed by Canonical
<hyperair> infinity: oh, so it's actually being worked on!
<Logan_> infinity: that's music to my ears
<hyperair> infinity: that's nice!
<Tribaal> infinity: nice :) Good to hear
<infinity> goodwill: As for "what Canonical loves about it", it's that we developed it (and it predates git), and inertia is hard to overcome, even when you've "lost".
<goodwill> right
<goodwill> mercurial is still alive right?
<infinity> Alive and well.
<goodwill> good
<goodwill> :)
<goodwill> love mercurial
<hyperair> meh
<hyperair> git ftw
<ScottK> Written in Python and used by Python upstream.
<infinity> Not my cup of tea, but some communities swear by it.
<Logan_> Mozilla does, for sure
<Logan_> although they've been using Git for some projects as well
<hyperair> oh mariadb uses bzr too
<infinity> I'm a simple man, though.  I still don't mind SVN, even though that makes me a social pariah in the modern DVCS world.
<Logan_> they'll probably move away from it once Ubuntu does
<Logan_> go away Adam, we don't want your outdated opinions here ;)
<Tribaal> well, bzr is a GNU project technically
<infinity> RCS FOR LIFE.
<hyperair> i wouldn't mind bzr so much if git-bzr was actually properly usable
<hyperair> but about half of the time, it fails with some kind of error due to some weird compatibility issue with the repo it's trying to fetch from
<RAOF> Probably doesn't help that bzr has a slightly richer data model.
<hyperair> heh
<hyperair> i've found some repositories with unresolvable tags as well
<hyperair> referring to wrong hashes
<infinity> RAOF: The richer data model, unfortunately, is sometimes a hindrance.
<Logan_> crap
<Logan_> I accidentally wrote utopic in a changelog instead of vivid
<infinity> RAOF: Overly complicates things like tracking moves in merges and such.
<infinity> Logan_: Need a reject from the queue?
<Logan_> can someone please reject 0.9.12-3.1ubuntu1 from topic?
<Logan_> *utopic
<infinity> Logan_: flush, I assume?
<Logan_> yup
<Logan_> thanks :)
<Logan_> I probably shouldn't be doing package merges at 2:30 AM
 * Logan_ goes to sleep
<RAOF> infinity: Right. I've not found git's non-handling of moves problematic, whereas bzr sometimes gets shirty.
<Logan_> infinity: I thoroughly appreciated your rejection reason
<infinity> Logan_: :)
<infinity> Logan_: That's my default for "people I know/like well enough to not be professional".
<infinity> Logan_: So, welcome to the inner circle, I guess.
<Logan_> I feel so honored
<pitti> oh, upgrading util-linux triggers update-initramfs -u, which now synchronously starts fstrim.service
<pitti> that causes the package upgrade to hang a looooong time
<pitti> infinity: ^ that's presumably not intended? fstrim.service shouldn't be started on package install IMHO
<infinity> pitti: I feel like there's a Debian bug about this that I've seen fly by my INBOX.
<infinity> pitti: I've been amazingly disconnected from all of that, but I need to get involved again before ah shanks me in my sleep.
<pitti> oh, it was mvo who merged that, nevermind
<pitti> I don't see anything relevant on https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=util-linux, I'll file one then
<pitti> filed now as Debian bug 767194, I'll have a look
<ubottu> Debian bug 767194 in util-linux "util-linux upgrade synchronously starts fstrim multiple times" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/767194
<pitti> it's highly annoying as each initramfs upgrade now takes 10 minutes or longer
<pitti> wgrant: hey William!
<pitti> wgrant: all the outstanding imports at https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-rtm/14.09/+source/ciborium/+imports?field.filter_status=all&field.filter_extension=all , are these normal? the pots got imported over a week ago
<wgrant> pitti: Probably because of the arch in the path?
<pitti> wgrant: well, I imported the armhf pot and deleted all the others (as this is RTM)
<wgrant> Some packages end up with the POs in both the source and binary directories.
<pitti> wgrant: but the outstanding PO files are from all arches
<pitti> i. e. neither get the armhf ones imported nor the !armhf ones ignored
<pitti> wgrant: yeah, unfortunately stuff only ends up in the per-arch build dir for ciborium
<pitti> but then again, https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/utopic/+source/ciborium/+imports?field.filter_status=all&field.filter_extension=all looks similar
<pitti> so perhaps that's "normal"
<wgrant> pitti: Are you sure? The template path is currently set to "po/ciborium.pot", no arch.
<pitti> wgrant: hm, that's not what I imported, but perhaps someone else already did that
<pitti> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-rtm/14.09/+source/ciborium/+pots/ciborium has translations, so supposedly it somehow works
<wgrant> Examining the tarballs in the queue, they're in source/po/*.po too
<wgrant> Someone should really fix all these cmake-y build systems to not produce both, though.
<pitti> ok
<wgrant> I don't think there's a problem here, besides the duplicated import entries.
<wgrant> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-rtm/14.09/+queue?queue_state=3&queue_text=ciborium, look at one of those tarballs.
<pitti> wgrant: so po files in dirs where pot files got explicitly deleted/rejected don't get cleaned up, they just keep stuck in "needs review"?
<wgrant> pitti: Files are approved based on templates, not based on other files.
<wgrant> A queue entry has no idea that another queue entry was rejected.
<wgrant> Though Blocked has some special handling.
<pitti> wgrant: ok, so that is normal then?
<wgrant> This particular case seems very common with qt things; someone should investigate and remove the duplication, I think.
<wgrant> This behaviour is normal and expected given the input tarball, yes.
<pitti> wgrant: ack, thanks for checking!
<pitti> (and yay broken build systems)
<wgrant> pitti: I guess that's probably easy enough to fix in pkgstriptranslations, too.
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> hey dholbach
<dholbach> hey pitti
<dholbach> how's life over there?
<pitti> dholbach: lots of catch-up to do from last week :)
<dholbach> yep, I can relate to that :)
<pitti> mvo: guten Morgen
<pitti> mvo: so where's the magic in http://launchpadlibrarian.net/188488665/command-not-found_0.3ubuntu15_0.3ubuntu15.1.diff.gz ? is there an external blacklist which isn't represented in that diff, or did you hand-edit scan.data after scanning?
<mvo> pitti: there is a external blacklist on nusakan
<mvo> pitti: I ran a full scan with postgresql-xc blacklisted
<pitti> mvo: ah, thanks; so SRUing this to trusty would merely mean to re-run scan, and it picks up the blacklist?
<mvo> pitti: yeah, thats probably the most simple way, do you want me to prepare trusty too?
<pitti> mvo: depends, if it's not too much effort for you; otherwise I can look into it. I mostly wanted to understand the mechanics how this works
<pitti> mvo: I verified the utopic SRU, thanks!
<mvo> pitti: no problem, I just started the extraction
<Noskcaj> Does ubuntu have any plans to implement dep-11? https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwiki.debian.org%2FDEP-11&ei=uaBQVPyeE8btmQW7oYLYCQ&usg=AFQjCNFAC6PqqgyxzcQWi42MmlGzNBouKQ&sig2=mZX3PiNYRlsX2hlWGzHwKg
<mvo> pitti: it takes some time to run though
<pitti> mvo: would hand-editing have been faster?
<pitti> well, I assume "yes"; I meant "more appropriate"
<mvo> pitti: either way is fine, the upside of running the extraction again is that we catch if more got changed in trusty (which really shouldn't be the case). but yeah, hand-editing is the fastest path :)
<ogra_> mvo, i just noticed that ubuntu-core-system-image fails to build images in vivid ... with the same issue we had on touch and ubuntu-core yesterday (image builds accidentially using PPA builders) ... infinity knows what to do (he fixed the two others)
<mvo> ogra_: thanks, but it seems like the latest image build was successful (3h ago) - I had to update a bunch of stuff in the PPA because of vidid changes
<ogra_> ah, k
<ogra_> sorry, didnt check the timestamp on the mail
<mvo> ogra_: no problem :)
<ogra_> hmm
 * ogra_ has by accident looked into his router syslog ... runnint minimal trusty there and i just noticed os-prober running there 
<ogra_> is that normal ?
<ogra_> i never saw that on an installed system
<Laney> @pilot in
* udevbot_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> utopic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: Laney
<ogra_> irritating ...
<ogra_> it also seems to load a lot of filesystem modules doing that
<ogra_> even before os-prober runs
<xnox> ogra_: os-prober is executed by update-grub
<xnox> ogra_: well one of the snippets to test/check/detect/generate boot entries.
<ogra_> xnox, why would that run on a regular basis on a running system  though ?
<ogra_> i seem to see it pretty regular in syslog
<xnox> ogra_: trusty gets new kernels every two weeks. so i'd expect it to run every two weeks.
<ogra_> hmm
<xnox> ogra_: unless your /boot is full, and unattended upgrades active, which would constantly try to configure new kernel, run os-prober, and fail.
 * ogra_ checks his /boot 
<ogra_> indeed i run unattended upgrades  ... since its a router :)
<ogra_> andin fact there is a newer kernel than i run
<ogra_> so why didnt i get a reboot notification on login
<ogra_> my trusty server install definitely gives me one ... weird
 * ogra_ guesses ubuntu-minimal lacks that bit 
<ogra_> xnox, thanks ! you rock !
<cjwatson> Laney: dh-autoreconf> I don't think so; part of the rationale for the split is that virtually nothing actually needs /usr/bin/libtool, and typically should be fixed if it does
<LocutusOfBorg1> Laney, so should I ask for miniupnpc and transmission merges? I actually did them both, also rdesktop
<LocutusOfBorg1> usually dholbach doesn't ask me to do, but I can ask if needed :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> they are all trivial merges
<Laney> cjwatson: Maybe so. I found three packages broken by this during the gi transition, which were using `libtool --mode=execute' in their test wrappers. (Okay, these three were Ubuntu specific)
<Laney> LocutusOfBorg1: You risk duplicating work or missing some piece of knowledge
<Laney> LocutusOfBorg1: See the first bullet https://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html
<Laney> This cycle I've already had two merges I was already working on performed by someone else
<cjwatson> Laney: If they're doing that, then they should have a direct build-dependency anyway, rather than relying on dh-autoreconf to supply it for them.
<cjwatson> Laney: But the right fix is to make them use the libtool in their build tree, not /usr/bin/libtool which may bear only passing resemblance in terms of configuration.
<cjwatson> Laney: Compare e.g. http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/man-db.git/tree/src/tests/testlib.sh#n17
<Laney> Right
<Laney> I'm just observing that there are things now which have become broken because they were assuming dh-autoreconf gave them /u/b/libtool
<LocutusOfBorg1> oh indeed, so do you plan to merge gdcm? it is a package I worked on debian
<cjwatson> Oh, yeah, just saying those are things to be fixed and not papered over
<LocutusOfBorg1> bdrung, you there?
<bdrung_work> LocutusOfBorg1, yes
<LocutusOfBorg1> I would like to report a bug against wrap-and-sort
<LocutusOfBorg1> but I ask you prior
<LocutusOfBorg1> http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/collab-maint/transmission.git/commit/?id=aa78e17e550005e12bd8251d694af450113f5d9c
<LocutusOfBorg1> look at this
<Laney> you know he's in #debian-devel too? :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> wrap-and-sort dropped dpkg-dev b-d, because seems to strip everything after the first comment "#" in b-d
<LocutusOfBorg1> ops :)
<Laney> gdcm> go ahead
<LocutusOfBorg1> Sometimes I feel more confortable here rather than in debian :)
<bdrung_work> LocutusOfBorg1, i am 99% sure that this is a bug in python-debian (and it is probably already reported)
<cjwatson> dpm: If you're talking about myspell-ca, I copied that in a few days back, you just weren't on IRC for me to respond at the time
<darkxst> So Noskcaj posted a silly google link, but are there any plans for DEP-11 in ubuntu in the near future?
<darkxst> pitti, cjwatson ^
<darkxst> Ubuntu GNOME will probably switch to gnome-software at some point, but without that, is largely useless
<pitti> I don't think it has ever been discussed so far
<LocutusOfBorg1> bdrung_work, you mean something like #694142?
<bdrung_work> LocutusOfBorg1, yes, that's exactly the bug you described
<LocutusOfBorg1> :D thanks!
<LocutusOfBorg1> I subscribed to it, thanks for avoiding me to report a new bug
<bdrung_work> i should implement an option to just show the diff instead of applying it
<bdrung_work> thanks for asking
<LocutusOfBorg1> bdrung_work, I'm wondering how many times people drops b-d in an unaware mode
<LocutusOfBorg1> seems dangerous!
<bdrung_work> i only run wrap-and-sort in git repositories (where you can run 'git diff' afterwards to check the result)
<LocutusOfBorg1> yes, but sometimes with huge dependencies it becomes difficult to track all of them, I double check them (this is why I spotted this one, in the transmission merge)
<dpm> cjwatson, ah, awesome. I hadn't re-pinged as I wasn't sure if you were away. Thanks!
<LocutusOfBorg1> but the "one-line" to multiline switch makes things hard
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Thanks for uploading https://code.launchpad.net/~gunnarhj/ubuntu/vivid/im-config/merge-0.27-1/+merge/239853
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Can you please push the branch too? (The bots didn't do their job.)
<darkxst> pitti, right, would be good to start that discussion at some point, but not really a priority this cycle
<darkxst> though given it require backend changes to the archives afaics it might be better to start sooner than later?
<dholbach> GunnarHj, done
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Great, thanks!
<LocutusOfBorg1> Laney, can I give you the debdiff or should I open abug?
<Laney> LocutusOfBorg1: bug please
<LocutusOfBorg1> s/abug/a bug/
<LocutusOfBorg1> ack
<LocutusOfBorg1> FYI #1387114
<LocutusOfBorg1> was trivial :)
<ogra_> bah
 * ogra_ glares at his half pushed livecd-rootfs branch 
<ogra_> damn
<LocutusOfBorg1> so will the next ubuntu have systemd by default?
<LocutusOfBorg1> most of the ubuntu deltas I'm looking at have upstart init scripts, I'm wondering if they can be synced over
<ogra_> mvo, any objections to me uploading livecd-rootfs ?
<ogra_> (just ran into your changes there)
 * ogra_ uploads ... 
<Laney> ogra_: there's a sponsor request in the queue
<Laney> can you take that at the same time?
<Laney> actually two
<cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg1: we'll need to retain upstart jobs as a transition mechanism for a while no matter what
<cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg1: please don't drop those
<ogra_> Laney, i'll have to do more subsequent uploads of livecd-rootfs today (this one is just to give you proper info in the build error so all needed changes are listed in it, i actually need to make these changes i teh next one)
<ogra_> Laney, so yeah, i'll happily take them with the next one
<Laney> thanks
<Laney> One of them is basically a c+p of a script in ubuntu-touch hooks, wonder if they can be shared somehow
<ogra_> i'll take a look
<ogra_> hoperfully not the password hardcoding :)
<ogra_> (since i'm just changing that bit)
<Laney> nah, /etc/writable stuf
<ogra_> ah, thats fine
 * ogra_ notes that systemd causes issues in touch even before being the default 
 * ogra_ blames lennart ... because everyone does
<mdeslaur> @pilot in
* udevbot_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> utopic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: mdeslaur, Laney
<mvo> ogra_: none, thanks
<ogra_> :)
<mvo> ogra_: sorry for the delay, was having lunch
<ogra_> to late anyway :)
<mvo> ogra_: I meant to upload them but got distracted :)
<ogra_> (i assumed if you merge into trunk the code would be ready)
<mvo> ogra_: yes, it should be fine and got tested in our PPA for some time already
<ogra_> right
<mvo> thanks
<ogra_> :)
<mvo> ogra_: oh, just got the mail from the archive that I did indeed upload (and not dreamed it). so you will have to do another upload with your "  * properly redirect error output in 99zz-check-uid-gid.chroot" change and a new version number. maybe you looked while LP was still processing the upload
<ogra_> hmm
<ogra_> mvo, did you debcommit ?
<ogra_> the tree didnt have a new tag
<ogra_> oh, and there is the rejected mail :P
<ogra_> hmm the tree is a mess
<ogra_> mvo, please push --overwrite your upload and do a proper debcommit ... seems the tree has my debian/changelog and my tag now
<mvo> ogra_: sure, done
<ogra_> thx
<mvo> ogra_: at r990
<mvo> ogra_: sorry for the trouble, that was the part I meant to do and got distracted
<ogra_> yeah, no prob ...
 * mvo hugs ogra_
 * ogra_ hugs mvo 
<LocutusOfBorg1> cjwatson, I never drop without asking first :) and of course *not* before any systemd transition :D
<LocutusOfBorg1> and thanks for the clarification ;)
<Laney> LocutusOfBorg1: are you going to handle rebuilds for gdcm?
<LocutusOfBorg1> Laney, I have no upload privileges :( I can try a rebuild in a ppa if this helps
<LocutusOfBorg1> should I?
<Laney> test builds would be helpful
<LocutusOfBorg1> camitk insighttoolkit insighttoolkit4 itksnap vmtk vtk-dicom right?
<LocutusOfBorg1> this is what is given me with reverse-depends -b src:gdcm
<Laney> anything that has a depends on libgdcm2.2
<LocutusOfBorg1> ack
<Laney> LocutusOfBorg1: miniupnpc is the same
<geser> could someone please give-back gexiv2 and grilo. They failed as the gir files weren't in multi-arch directories, they should build now with the current gobject-introspection from vivid.
<LocutusOfBorg1> ack
<Laney> geser: yep
<Laney> @pilot out
* udevbot_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> utopic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: mdeslaur
<LocutusOfBorg1> Laney, uploading rdeps :)
<seb128> bdmurray, pitti: do you know what that means?
<seb128> SegvAnalysis: Skipped: missing required field "Disassembly"
<seb128> unity8 segfault on the phone, apport failed to collect a dump, I wonder if that's the cause or a consequence
<bdmurray> seb128: I believe the Disassembly is still in the report
<bdmurray> seb128: I reported this as bug 1374544 a little while ago
<ubottu> bug 1374544 in apport (Ubuntu) "crash file indicates Disassembly is missing when it isn't" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1374544
<seb128> bdmurray, thanks
<seb128> in my case it is
<seb128> no coredump/stacktrace in the .crash
<bdmurray> ah, I believe that usually happens due to lack of memory on the device
<LocutusOfBorg1> Laney, rebuilds for miniupnc done (I hope)
<LocutusOfBorg1> some spurious armhf failures due to qemu crashes (multithread stuff)
<LocutusOfBorg1> I also uploaded a vino merge in my ppa, I hope to have a feedback from seb128 :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> ppa:~costamagnagianfranco/locutusofborg-ppa
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, read https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vino/+bug/1271358 Â§?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1271358 in vino (Ubuntu) "Update to 3.12" [Wishlist,In progress]
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, basically we can't update since the new version drops the UI for controlling it, which is used under !GNOME desktops, including Unity
<LocutusOfBorg1> anyway vino at least in debian uses the embedded miniupnpc
<LocutusOfBorg1> so I hope it can be patched to use again it also in ubuntu, right?
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, no, we don't want to use the embedded one
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, we can't update anyway due to what I wrote before
<LocutusOfBorg1> mmm so  miniupnpc is blocked by 1271358?
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, why would it?
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, did miniupnpc change soname/abi? in which case somebody needs to rebuild vino/make it work with that version
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, updating vino is not the only way to get there
<LocutusOfBorg1> ok so I'll try to rebuild it :)
<seb128> thanks
<LocutusOfBorg1> thanks to you for pointing me to the best solution ;)
<LocutusOfBorg1> :( https://launchpadlibrarian.net/188608080/buildlog_ubuntu-vivid-amd64.vino_3.14.0-2ubuntu2.is.3.8.1-0ubuntu3_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, yeah, needs code changes...
<LocutusOfBorg1> seb128, yes, working on it
<seb128> great
<mdeslaur> @pilot out
* udevbot_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> utopic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<pitti> seb128: I'm back -- seems you figured that out?
<LocutusOfBorg1> seb128, I fixed it :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> https://launchpad.net/~costamagnagianfranco/+archive/ubuntu/locutusofborg-ppa/+build/6518423
<LocutusOfBorg1> :D
<LocutusOfBorg1> Laney,  miniupnpc seems fine :)
<Laney> k, i'll look soon
<LocutusOfBorg1> Laney, no hurry :) I was just giving you the information, sorry if I bother :D
<Riddell> LocutusOfBorg1: ping
<Riddell> LocutusOfBorg1: bug 1357270 you included multiarch-python-include-dirs.diff
<ubottu> bug 1357270 in cmake (Ubuntu) "Merge cmake 2.8.12.2-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1357270
<Riddell> LocutusOfBorg1: that points to http://public.kitware.com/Bug/view.php?id=14156
<Riddell> which xnox says should be dropped
<Riddell> who's right?
<jono> mdeslaur, hey, pal
<mdeslaur> uh-oh :)
<jono> mdeslaur, can I ask a favor? there is an interesting discussion going on on the Bad Voltage forum about packaging, and your name came up :-)
<mdeslaur> jono: what'd I do?
<jono> would you mind going and responding? http://community.badvoltage.org/t/on-package-creation-and-maintenance/8358
<jono> :-)
<jono> others are of course, welcome to respond too :-)
<xnox> Riddell: it's mostly harmless. But imho should be dropped, but i didn't retest rebuilding cmakish/pythony packages.
<Riddell> xnox: there's two other patches, should I submit them upstream?
<xnox> Riddell: timeline-wise LocutusOfBorg1 simply did the merge, with his intended change, preserving all others.
<Riddell> boost-multiarch.patch cmake-crosscompile.patch
<teward> is there a list of supported ubuntu architectures for precise and later lying around anywhere?  trying to figure out what alternative architectures exist for any given release
<xnox> Riddell: boost-multiarch.patch possibly can also be dropped, but needs reverse-dep builds test.
<xnox> Riddell: cmake-crosscompile.patch is required to stay, and is not fully ready for submission to upstream.
<xnox> Riddell: i'm adding cmake-crosscompile patch re-review to my floss todo list. Will look at it during mini-debconf uk next weekend.
<Riddell> thanks xnox
<xnox> Riddell: i don't even have a vivid chroot yet, so I haven't done anything for this cycle yet.
<xnox> (well sans all the things that got synced in)
<pitti> Noskcaj, Laney: FYI, your libmediaart sync broke tracker: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/vivid-adt-tracker/11/?
<pitti> so it's held back in -proposed
<pitti> (uploader notifications aren't yet reenabled for vivid)
<pitti> looks like this needs some porting, maybe a newer tracker upstream version
<LocutusOfBorg1> Riddell, yes, as xnox said, that patch was intended for cmake 3
<LocutusOfBorg1> s/3/2.8.12.2
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, nice
<LocutusOfBorg1> with cmake 3 some things can be dropped, and the debian changelog from fgeyer was already mentioning that
<LocutusOfBorg1> I didn't open a new one, sorry for that :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> seb128, thaks, was trivial
<seb128> pitti, not really, well I still don't know why apport doesn't collect dumps for unity8 segfault on my phone, I edited the .py to change the 3/4 of free memory requirement to see if it's that
<pitti> seb128: the dash takes more than  half of available memory (~ 550 MB), so it's indeed difficult; but with that check disabled it might work (unless it then runs into OOM, of course)
<mdeslaur> jono: replied, thanks
<seb128> pitti, yeah, let's see, it would be nice if apport was writing in the log if that'sthe reason it doesn't do the collection
<pitti> seb128: ack; bug report appreciated (and assign to me)
<seb128> pitti, I can do that, thanks ;-)
<Laney> pitti: Indeed, new versions fix this
<LocutusOfBorg1> xnox, why MultiArchCross.cmake is not in debian?
<LocutusOfBorg1> I'm wondering why a plain sync isn't possible now
<xnox> LocutusOfBorg1: because it's incomplete, and relies on (not present in debian) at the time qt packaging changes.
<xnox> i need to reconcile it with debian's developments.
<xnox> and as i said, i'll do that soon.
<xnox> please keep it for now. otherwise ubuntu-touch sdk will break.
<jono> mdeslaur, thanks!
<mdeslaur> jono: ARGH We're sorry, but new users are temporarily limited to 3 replies in the same topic
<jono> mdeslaur, I can fix that for you if you like?
<mdeslaur> jono:  please, I have a long post #4 :)
<jono> mdeslaur, ok one sec
<LocutusOfBorg1> thanks for clarifying
<jono> mdeslaur, should be fixed now
<mdeslaur> jono: awesome, thanks!
<LocutusOfBorg1> we are in the early development, so if cmake breaks something in python we can handle it, right?
<LocutusOfBorg1> anyway, keeping a patch is safer :D
<jono> thanks mdeslaur, for replying :-)
<mdeslaur> jono: FWIW, my wife agrees that I am rude.
<ogra_> mdeslaur, lies !!! she doesnt know you as good as we do !
<ogra_> :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> ;)
<mdeslaur> ogra_: I know, right? :)
<jono> mdeslaur, LOL
<Noskcaj> pitti: That was to be expected. The new version has been merged
<infinity> Ick.  bash is telling me about sudo on every invocation now?
 * infinity wonders what's meant to write in_successful /etc/bash.bashrc 
<infinity> Err..
<infinity> What's meant to write $HOME/.sudo_as_admin_successful and why don't I have one?
<mdeslaur> infinity: oh, did that get dropped in sudo? /me checks
<mdeslaur> infinity: ah, crud, sudo is looking at the group called "admin" too
<mdeslaur> infinity: I'll fix sudo
<Jelle_> Hello guys. At the moment I got my Ubuntu server up and running, but I have to install the server-software for Jira. I followed the following tutorial: https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/JIRA/Installing+JIRA+on+Linux , altho at step 2.1 I need to execute a .sh file, but I get the 'Command not found' error. I hope someone can help me out :)
<infinity> mdeslaur: Ah-ha.
<infinity> mdeslaur: Make it check both, I guess, we get to retain backward compat forever.
<mdeslaur> yep
<infinity> mdeslaur: Might want to SRU the sudo change back too, so people on old releases get the semaphore created before they upgrade and get the message back for no good reason.  But I guess that's purely cosmetic, so meh.
<jtaylor> Jelle_: you are probably missing the 32 bit linker
<jtaylor> libc6-i386 I think
<Jelle_> I've no idea what that could be.. :P I'm very new to linux actually
<Jelle_> http://paste.ubuntu.com/8736982/  btw that is my output
<jtaylor> Jelle_: try bash instead of sh
<Jelle_> Nope didn't do the trick :/
<Jelle_> looks like the same error
<infinity> Which error are you referring to?
<infinity> In your output, the only error is bashisms.
<Jelle_> well the output link I just pasted
<infinity> Right, using "sudo bash ./start-jira.sh" would fix the unexpected operator errors.
<infinity> And I see no other errors.
<infinity> Jelle_: Anyhow, this is very much not a support channel.  #ubuntu for Ubuntu support, or some Jira channel for Jira support would be much more appropriate.
<Jelle_> Oh I'm sorry, I thought this would match devs
<Jelle_> Couldn't find any jira support channel, excuse me!
<sergiusens> Jelle_: only if it's for dev'ing ubuntu
<Jelle_> i'm sorry :) good night!
<Wellark> what super powers I need to be able to target bugs for ubuntu series?
<Wellark> right now I can only nominate
<Wellark> infinity: you probably know --^
<ogra_> Wellark, #ubuntu-bugs does ...
<Wellark> oh, we have such channel as well..
<infinity> Wellark: There's a superpower team I can add you to if you make a solid argument for why you need to be in it.
<infinity> Wellark: I'm heading out for lunch, so you have time to convince me while I'm gone. :P
<Wellark> infinity: I'm upstream of i-network, unity-action-api and connectivity-api
<Wellark> and would be easier for anyone if I get the powers to handle the targeting myself
<Wellark> infinity: or other option is that I give you the list of multiple dozens of bugs and you can do the targeting for me ;)
<Wellark> infinity: + there will be some other projects coming in during this cycle
#ubuntu-devel 2014-10-30
<ScottK> pitti: What would you think about building calibre against the system libmspack?  I looked at the source and there's a compile time option in configure already.  The embedded copy is an alpha version of the current release that we have in the distro.
<BruceMa> --help
<BruceMa> test
 * infinity grumbles about more binaries moving around in syslinux and fixes d-i yet again.
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> ScottK: sounds good; the less we can use the bundled bits the better
<pitti> ScottK: noted
<dpm> morning pitti
<dpm> mvo_, cjwatson, could one of you perhaps review https://code.launchpad.net/~dpm/click/add-i18n-tools/+merge/240082 ?
<dpm> (and good morning)
<pitti> hey dpm, how are you?
<dpm> pitti, good good - did you have a good rest of sightseeing day in Washington? :)
<pitti> dpm: yes, I did; I had a marvellous weekend
<mvo_> dpm: hey, good morning. sure I'm happy to have a look. this probably needs to go to ubuntu-sdk-libs-dev as well (i.e. added to the seed)
<dpm> awesome
<dpm> thanks mvo_. Yes, let me know if there are more changes required.
<mvo_> dpm: yeah, seeding, but I can do that :)
 * dpm hugs mvo_
<dpm> mvo_, I noticed you've got a click/devel series. Do you need me to rather submit the change there? Also, would it be possible to do a click release so that we can get the Qt Creator app templates working?
<mvo_> dpm: yes, please submit against lp:click/devel
<dpm> mvo_, ok, done -> https://code.launchpad.net/~dpm/click/add-i18n-tools/+merge/240085
<mvo_> dpm: thanks
<apachelogger> cjwatson: where does isolinux/bootlogo file on the utopic isos come from? it appears to be radically different from what I have in the gfxboot-theme-ubuntu package
<apachelogger> cjwatson: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8744667/
<pitti> ScottK: how do you mean "compile-time option in configure"? (calibre has a setup.py with no such thing); anyway, I'll check what it takes to build against the system one
<apachelogger> cjwatson: also FWIW, the package one appears broken and doesn't actually manage to render a UI as can be seen when rolling an ISO with ubuntu-defaults-builder
<xnox> apachelogger: in utopic, we gained new syslinux which cannot load external files, thus all files used by the theme need to be repacked into bootlogo file itself.
<xnox> apachelogger: i'm not quite sure which piece of software was modified to do that, cjwatson would know. let me see if i can find the relevant code.
<xnox> apachelogger: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/debian-cd/ubuntu/revision/1898
<cjwatson> yeah it's gfxboot-theme-ubuntu with cpio adjustments from tools/boot/utopic/boot-amd64 in debian-cd
<cjwatson> couldn't do much about the awkwardness beyond idly cursing syslinux upstream
<apachelogger> :O
<apachelogger> ah yes, I must be blind, I searched that file like three times
<apachelogger> xnox: thanks :)
<apachelogger> cjwatson: I do wonder if live-build should be adjusted for that
<cjwatson> possibly, yes
<mvo_> cjwatson: do you mind if I make  a new click release? what we have in click/devel + adding 15.04
<cjwatson> mvo_: go for it!
<pitti> ScottK: meh, that's going to become a rather messy hackery; they include a python module which needs internal libraries that libmspack-dev doesn't ship
<pitti> ScottK: and if we include the ones from upstream, we mix headers and .c from different versions
<cjwatson> mvo_: hold add-i18n-tools though
<cjwatson> mvo_: (I'll follow up in the ticket, just a quick warning that it's broken)
<cjwatson> mvo_: one-line fix if you want to just tweak lp:click/devel
<mvo_> cjwatson: that would be great
<mvo_> cjwatson: what did I overlook?
<cjwatson> see MP :)
 * mvo_ checks
<mvo_> thanks!
<mvo_> pete-woods1: hi, do you mind if I do a (trivial) cmake-extras upload to add a multi-arch: foreign field? send a MP already, this would unblock  building the click chroot on 15.04
<pete-woods1> mvo_: not a problem. I'll also ensure I'm subsrcibed to MRs for it
<mvo_> pete-woods1: cool, thanks! I noticed the previous released where done using the train - but for this one liner it seems a bit overkill?
<mvo_> doko__: do you know why dh-python dropped the multi-arch: foreign patch? we had it in trusty but it was overwrite by a sync in utopic. was this maybe a accident?
<pete-woods1> mvo_: can you make another fix to it while you're at it?
<mvo_> pete-woods1: sure
<pete-woods1> mvo_: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8745159/
<mvo_> pete-woods1: thanks, I create a MP for this as well so its easier for you to merge
<pete-woods1> okay, cool
<mvo_> pete-woods1: and the final MP, thanks!
 * pitti tries to untangle the phpunit -> phpunit-comparator, php-doctrine-instantiator -> phpunit circular (build-) deps mess
<pitti> go Debian with your binary uploads!
<xnox> pitti: well, we can use a bootstrap repository.... =)
<cjwatson> pitti: I can help rebootstrap things given sequencing instructions
<cjwatson> by injecting binaries for use as build-deps
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, I just uploaded a phpunit-comparator with temporarily dropping the phpunit build-dep
<pitti> once phpunit becomes installable, I'll upload a fakesync again
<cjwatson> ah, ok, for future reference no need to leave the debris in the archive :)
<pitti> cjwatson: ok, good to know
<LocutusOfBorg1> is anybody planning to transition jpeg-turbo with the debian one?
<cjwatson> Noskcaj: you uploaded a new upstream release of gnuhealth a while back, which is now causing a bunch of other stuff to be stuck in -proposed due to strict dependencies on tryton-*; since then, gnuhealth has been removed from Debian.  are you actually interested in maintaining this package permanently in Ubuntu or can I remove it from Ubuntu to match Debian?
<cjwatson> (I would prefer the last answer unless you have quite a strong interest ...)
<caribou> is it possible to build a ppc64el package using sbuild/pbuilder ?
<caribou> or do we need ppc64el h/w (virt) for that ?
<caribou> investigating Bug: #1387594
<ubottu> bug 1387594 in libnss-ldap (Ubuntu Utopic) "init: symbol lookup error: /lib/powerpc64le-linux-gnu/libnss_ldap.so.2: undefined symbol: __libc_lock_lock" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387594
<cjwatson> caribou: You can try with qemu; mk-sbuild --arch=ppc64el should set that up
<cjwatson> caribou: Results may be a bit variable though
<cjwatson> Hm, I think that works on x86 now but ICBW, check
<cjwatson> If mk-sbuild succeeds then it should be worth a try at least
<caribou> cjwatson: I don't need a working package, just need to investigate why it builds with HAVE_LIBC_LOCK_H
<caribou> cjwatson: thanks for the tip, will try
<xnox> caribou: ... but if you want hardware access, you could access canonical or debian porter boxes.
<xnox> (both have low barrier of entry)
<caribou> xnox: I have access to some remote VMs, but a bad Internet connection atm
<xnox> ok =(
<caribou> xnox: so building locally would help out when my internet go crazy
<caribou> xnox: but thanks for the info
<brainwash> once again ubuntu is stuck with a vulnerable chromium-browser version. can the current version be synced from debian?
<brainwash> bug 1386455
<ubottu> bug 1386455 in chromium-browser (Ubuntu) "Chromium 37 has 159 known security issues" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386455
<Tribaal> brainwash: I guess a sync request is in order, yes. Di dyou have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess ? Thanks for bringing this up
<brainwash> Tribaal: I don't know if the package can be simply synced
<didrocks> Riddell: hey, do you think there would be anything kde-side blocking a bluez5 transition?
<Tribaal> brainwash: good point. Let me try with requestsync, and I'll link your bug
<brainwash> Tribaal: thanks. I just noticed this bug report while browsing launchpad. it's not the first time that chromium-browser is not up-to-date in ubuntu
<Tribaal> right, maybe
<brainwash> now there is already a 3 week gap
<Tribaal> well, that's precisely what that sync request process is for :)
<cjwatson> I suspect there are non-trivial Ubuntu modifications, though it is incumbent on anyone making a sync request to analyse that
<cjwatson> it's probably best to poke Chad Miller
<cjwatson> or the security team
<xnox> pitti:  about https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-drivers-common/+bug/1386257 I've pushed two merge proposals:
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1386257 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "intel-microcode should be installed by default, when the CPU is GenuineIntel" [Undecided,In progress]
<Tribaal> cjwatson: they are subscribed to that bug already - do you think and IRC ping is in order?
<xnox> https://github.com/tseliot/ubuntu-drivers-common/pull/11
<xnox> and
<xnox> https://code.launchpad.net/~xnox/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.vivid-seed-intel-microcode/+merge/240070
<xnox> pitti: do you maintain / review ubuntu-drivers-common things? =) and if yes, can you review those two?
<pitti> hey xnox
<pitti> xnox: tseliot and me, yes
<pitti> xnox: you can do the seed change yourself, I figure :)
<cjwatson> Tribaal: I can't speak for them, but bug mail can be pretty overwhelming for anyone doing more than a small amount in Ubuntu, so I generally don't assume that's enough for people to have seen urgent things
<cjwatson> I haven't been on top of my bug mail in years :-/
<pitti> xnox: can we cover this with the usual "Modaliases:" magic to match on a particular CPU model, or does that need a custom handler?
<xnox> pitti: sure, but i still want the review for sanity. i don't have as much time fixing world breakages any more. =)
<Tribaal> cjwatson: alright, I'll send them a gentle nudge
<Tribaal> :)
<brainwash> Tribaal: great, thanks :)
<xnox> pitti: i believe no modaliases are published for the /sys/devices/cpu, thus using a custom detect plugin. and static mapping of vendors -> package name.
<xnox> the detect plugin checks for the first vendor_id in /proc/cpuinfo
 * xnox notes, that i should check what happens in qemu-kvm.
<pitti> xnox: responded to the seed MP
<xnox> pitti: in particular, we'd want intel-microcode to be always be installed, even if there is no microcode update for a given cpu version. Because there might be one in the future pushed via updates, and updates don't rerun ubuntu-drivers as far as i can tell.
<xnox> pitti: also there is no ubuntu-drivers integration on the d-i / server installs, is there? E.g. i thought it would be useful with all the GPU workloads these days, etc.
<pitti> xnox: only really if we commit to maintaining this package
<pitti> multiverse seems a bit fishy for that
<pitti> especially for LTSes
<xnox> pitti: intel-microcode has maintainance history and sru's.
<xnox> pitti: essentially ~intel-team & ~canonical-kernel-team request/push/update microcodes. This is partially in response to TSX bug, where microcode was released to disable that feature on Haswells.
<xnox> only to find out that nobody upgrades/installs microcode packages by default.
<pitti> xnox: right, so these shoudl probably get MIRed to restricted then?
<xnox> intel-microcode - yes.
<xnox> amd64-microcode - added to the detector for completness, but I cannot vouch for maintaining that.
<xnox> given my interests and allegiance these days =)
<mvo_> cjwatson: do you want a final review of the click merge before I jump into the train? shouldn't be needed as its really striaghtforward
<cjwatson> mvo_: looks fine, I approved it for form's sake or whatever
<cjwatson> mvo_: and yay for ubuntu-sdk-libs[-dev]
<mvo_> cjwatson: :) thanks!
<apachelogger> cjwatson: more problems, apparently syslinux-themes-ubuntu-utopic is missing some c32 links (: at the very least ldlinux.c32 libutil.c32 libcom32.c32
<apachelogger> I suppose the fix would be adding the links?
<cjwatson> apachelogger: Sounds reasonable, please go ahead
<cjwatson> (trying to move this sort of thing off to people who care about it more since I'm not going to be maintaining this stuff as of 2015 ...)
<cjwatson> it's possible it might be better to consider those links as something that live-build adds rather than as part of the theme, I'm not totally sure
<cjwatson> they don't really feel ideal as theme elements
<cjwatson> but then the whole theme concept is a bit ropey here
<apachelogger> yeah, ubuntu-cdimage adds them manually, which is why it doesn't have this issue, so perhaps it would be better to do the same in lb for the sake of consistency
<apachelogger> then again, the entire post-chroot part of lb is so vastly different it probably doesn't matter anyway
<jdstrand> brainwash: I've asked chad to comment on the bug
<Tribaal> jdstrand: oh, thanks
<jdstrand> Tribaal, brainwash: I do know there were some rather significant compiler issues this time around. I'll let chad comment. we've discussed how we can better react to this sort of thing in the future too
<brainwash> jdstrand: thank you for getting involved :)
<Tribaal> jdstrand: awesome, thanks a lot
<mdeslaur> cjwatson: mind if I merge wget?
<cjwatson> mdeslaur: please do
<mdeslaur> cjwatson: thanks
<cjwatson> right now I'm happy for core-devs to take any of my merges, as long as they do appropriate things with any of them that are in version control with Vcs-Bzr control fields (notably anything in d-i)
<mvo_> any concerns about  a gnutls28 merge/upload for vivid?
<LocutusOfBorg1> cjwatson, I was asking about wget :)
<cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg1: You're also not a core-dev, AIUI?
<cjwatson> I'm not happy for just anyone to grab my merges, but core-devs have proven themselves to know what they're doing :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> nope, I'm not, but things might change, right? :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> I'm in the debian DD process, I hope to have the same possibility for ubuntu soon
<cjwatson> by that point I probably won't have much in the way of regular open merges left, so it shouldn't arise :)
<cjwatson> at the moment I'm just trying to cut down the pile of stuff that I'm routinely responsible for a bit, in preparation for moving to LP
<LocutusOfBorg1> I would like for now to have the possibility to upload packages I'm uploader/maintainer, like the dm.txt list in debian, I remember ubuntu has something similar, does it?
<LocutusOfBorg1> what is LP?
<cjwatson> Launchpad
<LocutusOfBorg1> lp development? nice!
<cjwatson> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#PerPackage is what you're looking for
 * xnox should do / give up my merges as well.
<LocutusOfBorg1> yep, thanks, I read it a while ago, I'll reread, now that with the debian freeze I'm stuck :D
<LocutusOfBorg1> btw do I have changes to see bug 1098729 fixed with your move? :)
<ubottu> bug 1098729 in QEMU "qemu-user-static for armhf: segfault in threaded code" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1098729
<LocutusOfBorg1> cjwatson, unfortunately that page you linked me gets me stuck
<LocutusOfBorg1> it points to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
<LocutusOfBorg1> but there is no mention about debian maintainers, only developers
<cjwatson> dunno, ask the DMB
<Laney> It is as written there
<LocutusOfBorg1> slangasek, sorry I wasn't aware
<LocutusOfBorg1> so how can find the DMB?
<geser> LocutusOfBorg1: if you have questions you can also mail the devel-permissions mailing list which is read by the DMB
<LocutusOfBorg1> seems legit, thanks!
<LocutusOfBorg1> BTW how can I build a package that takes more than 50GB on ppa buildds? https://launchpad.net/~costamagnagianfranco/+archive/ubuntu/locutusofborg-ppa/+build/6520797
<LocutusOfBorg1> :( i need to test gdcm build dependencies for the merge I did
<pitti> ook; so gnome-shell fails because of mutter fails because of zenity fails because of gtk+3.0
 * pitti untangles
<caribou> slangasek: I've just put more notes into LP: #1387594
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1387594 in libnss-ldap (Ubuntu Utopic) "init: symbol lookup error: /lib/powerpc64le-linux-gnu/libnss_ldap.so.2: undefined symbol: __libc_lock_lock" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387594
<caribou> slangasek: so a PPA build returns a package that uses __libc_lock_lock which is not provided by libc
<caribou> slangasek: the one in the archive does not make use of this symbol
<mardy> Laney: hi! About https://code.launchpad.net/~laney/libaccounts-glib/libtool-and-gi/+merge/240116
<slangasek> caribou: right, so that seems like the package now misbuilds on all archs, but wasn't noticed anywhere but ppc64el because that's the only place where the binaries were built recently?
<caribou> slangasek: no, it seems to correctly build everywhere _but_ on ppc64el
<mardy> Laney: the changes (except for those in debian/) need to land in https://code.google.com/p/accounts-sso/source/list?repo=libaccounts-glib first
<caribou> slangasek: but when I build manally or through PPA build, I get the same build behavior than with ppc64el
<caribou> slangasek: with the same source pkg
<mardy> Laney: do you want to file a bug with the git patch? or I can do that for you, if you are busy
<Laney> mardy: oh okay, I thought it was Ubuntu, can you commit there?
<Laney> or do you want a separate review?
<mardy> Laney: I can commit there, I just want to give you credit as the author. I'll use your @canonical.com e-mail, is that OK?
<Laney> mardy: fine by me
<Laney> thanks
<caribou> slangasek: just checked i386 in the archive : it is correct (i.e. does not use __libc_lock_lock)
<slangasek> caribou: what do you mean when you say it correctly builds everywhere but ppc64el?  The last upload to the archive was in 2012; if a rebuild in a ppa shows the same bug, that points to a build regression that's gone unnoticed
<slangasek> to me, that sounds like it correctly /built/ everywhere, but that it /no longer/ correctly builds anywhere
<caribou> slangasek: ah, "last upload to the archive was in 2012"
<caribou> indeed, then that explains why I cannot rebuild it w/o the _libc_lock_lock
<caribou> slangasek: so maybe good to put a note somewhere *not* to rebuild it, otherwise any system doing ldap authentication will fail to reboot :-/
<slangasek> caribou: no, packages need to be rebuildable, please mark this bug critical
<caribou> slangasek: already is; I'll tag it for all releases
<caribou> slangasek: I suspect that it comes from another depend that picks up libc6-dev where /usr/include/x86_64-linux-gnu/bits/libc-lock.h comes from
<caribou> libc-lock.h is where HAS_LIBC_LOCK_H  is defined
<cjwatson> libc6-dev is build-essential
<caribou> cjwatson: yep, noticed that
<cjwatson> inherently
<caribou> this is the define that picks it up :
<caribou> if defined(HAVE_LIBC_LOCK_H) || defined(HAVE_BITS_LIBC_LOCK_H)
<cjwatson> sounds like code that's been extracted from libc and improperly adjusted, perhaps.  guarding with _LIBC might be wise, though I haven't checked the context.
<cjwatson> my understanding is that that interface is libc-internal and that nothing outside libc should be using it even if it's present.
<bdmurray> mvo_: could you have a look at bug 1386354?
<ubottu> bug 1386354 in click (Ubuntu) "package click 0.4.21.1 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess new pre-removal script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386354
<caribou> cjwatson: the upstream pristine tar file has those two #undef. It is changed by a quilt patch
<LocutusOfBorg1> Laney, rebuilds for gdcm and upnpc done
<LocutusOfBorg1> upnpc just a trivial patch
<LocutusOfBorg1> https://launchpad.net/~costamagnagianfranco/+archive/ubuntu/locutusofborg-ppa
<Laney> thanks, I'll look later today hopefully
<cjwatson> caribou: such defines are usually detected at build time
<LocutusOfBorg1> no problem ;)
<LocutusOfBorg1> thanks to you!
<mvo_> bdmurray: looking
<mvo_> bdmurray: thanks
<caribou> cjwatson: that looks interesting : http://anonscm.debian.org/viewvc/collab-maint/deb-maint/libnss-ldap/trunk/debian/patches/glibc-2.16.patch?view=log
<caribou> cjwatson: Add glibc-2.16.patch to handle removal of __libc_lock_lock and similar symbols from libc (Closes: #727177).
<cjwatson> caribou: looks plausible yes
<cjwatson> so just needs a merge
<caribou> cjwatson: the bug report is even more explicit : https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727177
<ubottu> Debian bug 727177 in libnss-ldap "Upgrade of libnss-ldap to 265-1 causes important binaries to segfault" [Critical,Fixed]
<caribou> cjwatson: so 265-3 which is in unstable will be merged into vivid, then the specific patch for #727177 should be SRUed into the releases
<cjwatson> makes sense
<caribou> cjwatson: ok, will get to that first thing tomorrow morning
<cjwatson> great
 * caribou makes a note to go & check debian BTS more often for bugs not yet merged into Ubuntu
<bdmurray> doko__: could you have a look at bug 1363785?
<ubottu> bug 1363785 in icedtea-web (Ubuntu Utopic) "package icedtea-netx:amd64 1.5.1-1ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 2" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1363785
<pitti> smoser: do you know when we'll get vivid cloud images?
<smoser> utlemming, ^ ?
<pitti> smoser: ah, right; sorry for being my favorite cloud ping guy :)
<cjwatson> xnox: Could you merge pythonmagick (or tell me I can) for the imagemagick transition, please?
<smoser> pitti, thats perfectly fine.
<smoser> rcj also might know.
 * xnox looks
<xnox> cjwatson: hm, it should have been a sync by now, but looks like gccxml got split differently in debian now.
<darthbunny> hello!
<darthbunny> can anyone help me with a problem related to unity8 in ubuntu-desktop-next?
<dobey> darthbunny: #ubuntu is the general support channel. you can maybe ask in #ubuntu-unity for unity-specific questions. but please just ask the question, don't ask to ask
<Laney> neat, sponsor-patch checks if the bug is closed
<Laney> and puts you in a subshell to fix the problem â¥
 * Laney hugs bdrung 
<Laney> LocutusOfBorg1: I uploaded miniupncpcpcpcponc
<Laney> will try to get to some of the rdeps if it clears NEW soon
<Laney> but I don't know how much I'll be around over the weekend
<seb128> Laney, I can look at NEW and rdepends tomorrow
<Laney> cool, thanks
<Laney> bug #1387096 links to the ppa
<ubottu> bug 1387096 in miniupnpc (Ubuntu) "please merge miniupnpc from debian" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387096
<bdmurray> mlankhorst: it'd be good if bug 1365695 had a test case although from a quick glance it looks like the bug is black screen
<ubottu> bug 1365695 in ubuntu-drivers-common (Ubuntu Trusty) "No longer able to use GUI after update" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1365695
<directhex> infinity: ping
<rharper> if I wanted to debug an apt get install dependency error offline, what files off the host would I need to help figure that out at a later time?  /var/lib/apt ?
<infinity> directhex: pongski.
<ricotz> lol
<ricotz> infinity, hi, is there an auto-sync from debian/experimental?
<infinity> ricotz: Nope.
<infinity> ricotz: We only autosync from sid, if you feel experimental is a better source for a specific package, you need to 'syncpackage -d experimental <foo>' manually.
<infinity> ricotz: But that also implies some responsibility on your part to keep an eye on it and resync, at least until said version hits sid.
<ricotz> infinity, ok, yeah i know, i was just wondering about a specific one but i guess Laney synced granite for the g-i MA transition
<ricotz> infinity, will do when it comes to that, thanks
<infinity> As we head into another Debian freeze, it's perhaps worth reopening the discussion about if it would be a good (or awful) idea to let people pin a sync source to experimental, but autosync so far are a pretty stateless thing, so that would be a bit of code to get right on the server side.
<ScottK> pitti: Sounds painful.  I guess maybe consider it in Debian for Jessie +1.
<ScottK> Thanks for looking.
<mlankhorst> bdmurray: yeah black screen is pretty much it
<bdmurray> mlankhorst: still it'd make things easier for the SRU team if we could find the SRU information easily
<bdrung> Laney: :)
<Logan_> infinity: sounds like a bad idea to me to pin sync sources to things other than unstable
<Logan_> unless it's only in the more stable direction
#ubuntu-devel 2014-10-31
<ScottK> pitti: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Vivid/view/AutoPkgTest/job/vivid-adt-marble/lastBuild comes up 404 and I don't see any link at the top level to Vivd results to try and navigate to it.  Is the public instance set up for Vivid results yet?
<RAOF> ScottK: I'm pretty sure it is - I've got failure notifications for colord with resolvable public URLs.
<ScottK> Weird.
<ScottK> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Vivid/ is 404 for me as well.
<hyperair> argh unity-settings-daemon leaks memory so bloody much
<darkxst> pitti, https://code.launchpad.net/~darkxst/gnome-session/3.14/+merge/240212
<Noskcaj> doko_, Could you please check if enblend-enfuse still needs our arm optimisation changes?
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> RAOF, ScottK; /view/Vivid/ doesn't exist yet, I sent an RT last week; the individual jobs do exis (in the failure notification mails), just not the view
<pitti> darkxst: \o/
<ScottK> pitti: OK.  How do I get to the marble test results?
<pitti> ScottK: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/vivid-adt-marble/
<pitti> those URLs always work
<ScottK> Thanks.
<pitti> ScottK: and yes, I retried it once or twice and it seems to genuinely fail
<ScottK> pitti: It might be a good idea to teach the excuses page to point at those always existing URL instead of the sometimes not existing URLs it uses now.
<pitti> ScottK: oh, indeed; I'll prepare a britney fix
<ScottK> Thanks.
<pitti> we'll hopefully soon switch away, so I don't want to see the next release on this, but still..
<pitti> ScottK: https://code.launchpad.net/~pitti/britney/britney2-ubuntu-jenkins-url/+merge/240221
<ScottK> Thanks.
<pitti> infinity, cjwatson: can you please merge and roll out https://code.launchpad.net/~pitti/britney/britney2-ubuntu-jenkins-url/+merge/240221 so that notifications have working URLs?
<infinity> pitti: Pretty sure you can do that yourself.
<infinity> pitti: Unless you were asking for a review. :P
<infinity> pitti: Oh, britney is owned by -release not -archive.  Curious.
<pitti> infinity: yeah, I can't push there
<infinity> Dear bzr, I'm pretty sure that giving up on locks after 177 hours MIGHT BE SAFE TO DO ON YOUR OWN WITHOUT MY HELP.
<infinity> Unable to obtain lock  held by cjwatson@bazaar.launchpad.net on taotie (process #24409), acquired 177 hours, 15 minutes ago.
<infinity> ^-- Lolz.
<infinity> pitti: Rolled out.
<pitti> infinity: cheers!
<LocutusOfBorg1> seb128, Laney thanks, don't forget to ping me if something else is needed :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> and don't forget the vino patch in the bug report ;)
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, sure
<LocutusOfBorg1> and for gdcm I'm rebuilding the rdeps without the two patches, just keeping the arm64 delta
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, what needs sponsoring?
<LocutusOfBorg1> upnpc rdeps? :)
 * mgedmin wonders if it would be impolite to draw pitti's attention to https://code.launchpad.net/~mgedmin/apport/fix-lp1387328
<pitti> mgedmin: no, not at all; I saw the MP, just have my hands full
<pitti> mgedmin: will get to it ASAP
<mgedmin> no rush, I won't get to enjoy the fix until vivid anyway
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, is there things ready for "sponsoring"? your ppa has packages that have older versions that vivid
<mgedmin> I just don't want it to be accidentally forgotten
<LocutusOfBorg1> seb128, I don't get, do I need to reupload with "ubuntu1" suffix rather than ~ubuntu?
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, no, just tell me what needs to be sponsored
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, like your ppa has "0ad (0.0.17-1~ubuntu15.04.1~ppa1)" which is older than the vivid version
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, does that just need a no-change rebuild?
<LocutusOfBorg1> yes, all of them
<LocutusOfBorg1> I used backportpackage because I don't know about a tool that has something like "grab-addubuntuN-upload"
<LocutusOfBorg1> so all of them uses the library, and only vino has the need of a fix (in the bug report)
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, k
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, I already uploaded vino, uploading transmission now
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, the other ones I'm not sure there is much to "sponsor", if it's only bumping the changelog I can just get/run dch/upload?
<LocutusOfBorg1> yep
<seb128> thanks
<LocutusOfBorg1> seb128, sorry, it is my first transition in ubuntu :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> BTW vino picked up the old miniupnpc stuff
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, no worry!
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, you mean?
<LocutusOfBorg1> yep, failing to build
<LocutusOfBorg1> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/188771363/buildlog_ubuntu-vivid-amd64.vino_3.8.1-0ubuntu3_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<LocutusOfBorg1> so hold on about uploads, maybe the new miniupnpc isn't installed yet?
<seb128> right
<seb128> but since it stop building with the old one it should have an updated build-depends
<infinity> LocutusOfBorg1: FWIW, for no-change rebuilds, "dch -r" usually gives you the sane version number (bumps ubuntuN if modified, adds buildN if not).
<seb128> let me fix that
<LocutusOfBorg1> seb128, yes, I can update maybe the patch if the older miniupnpc is used, but seems too much useless effort
<seb128> right
<LocutusOfBorg1> and I'm trying to rebuild gdcm dependencies ;)
<cjwatson> dch -R not dch -r :)
<infinity> cjwatson: Err, yes.  I always get the wrong one first. ;)
<LocutusOfBorg1> still not picking up the new one in my vivid pbuilder
<LocutusOfBorg1> thanks both :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> seb128, seems to be available now
<LocutusOfBorg1> Get:1 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ vivid-proposed/main libminiupnpc10 amd64 1.9.20140610-2ubuntu1 [24.0 kB]
<LocutusOfBorg1> Get:2 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ vivid-proposed/main libminiupnpc-dev amd64 1.9.20140610-2ubuntu1 [28.4 kB]
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, great
<LocutusOfBorg1> 0ad needs another rebuild :(
<seb128> I know
<seb128> stop stressing over it, things take a bit
<seb128> now that the binaries are there we can do the other rebuilds
<LocutusOfBorg1> thanks ;)
<LocutusOfBorg1> ps warzone3000 can be synced right?
<LocutusOfBorg1> the delta was autoconf and miniupnpc related, both fixed in debian
<Saviq> pitti, hey, is it currently possible to use apport-retrace on rtm-sourced .crash files?
<pitti> Saviq: yes, sure; http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-archive/apport/lp-retracer-config/view/head:/Ubuntu%20RTM%2014.09/sources.list is the matching config for that
<Saviq> pitti, the one in lp:daisy not good enough?
<pitti> Saviq: ah, that looks identical indeed; I had thought that daisy woudl also use lp-retracer-config
<Saviq> pitti, any pointer on why I would get http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/8759234/ then?
<pitti> oh! 14.09 archive is missing Contents.gz
<pitti> http://derived.archive.canonical.com/ubuntu-rtm/dists/14.09/
<pitti> we need that to map a path to a package file
<Saviq> oups
<pitti> /home/michal/dev/canonical/retrace/sandbox/usr/bin/unity8
<pitti> but aside from that, this path looks strange
<pitti> probably just a confusing log message, though
<Saviq> pitti, I am passing --sandbox-dir
<Saviq> pitti, and -C and -S
<pitti> Saviq: how old is that sandbox? does it work with a temp sandbox?
<pitti> (i. e. without --sandbox-dir)
<Saviq> pitti, there's nothing in there
<Saviq> pitti, there's only packages.txt
 * Saviq tries with a temp
<pitti> ok, no immediate idea then :/
<Saviq> pitti, here's the full log, if that could help with anything http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/8759314/
<pitti> Saviq: it seems your .crash file doesn't have a Package:/Dependencies: fielD?
<pitti> Saviq: and since RTM lacks Contents.gz, the "map file to package" fallback also doesn't work
<Saviq> pitti, hmm Package: unity8 8.01+15.04.20141030~rtm-0ubuntu1
<pitti> Saviq: did you run that unity crash through apport-cli or whoopsie-upload-all first?
<Saviq> pitti, yes
<cjwatson> pitti: Oh, heh, I guess we need to run the contents-generation job for 14.09 ...
<ochosi> hey folks, quick question, when will status.ubuntu.com be bumped for V?
<ochosi> pitti: and somewhat related, thanks for approving the xubuntu blueprints!
<pitti> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> utopic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: pitti
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg1: erk, poor you (just reviewing runit merge)
<pitti> this package is an utter mess
<LocutusOfBorg1> pitti, why?
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg1: err
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg1: no debhelper, /etc/inittab, no dh_installinit, debian/rules is a mess, no SysV init script, etc.
<pitti> TBH, this doesn't even look like something which we'd ever want to see on an Ubuntu system, so perhaps we should just kill it completely
<LocutusOfBorg1> understandable :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> so the problem is not the merge but the debian packaging?
<pitti> there's also some problems with the merge (I'm following up to the bug)
<LocutusOfBorg1> pitti, if you want to kill it don't loose your time in replying ;)
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg1: ok, bug 1386581 updated
<ubottu> bug 1386581 in runit (Ubuntu) "please merge runit from debian" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1386581
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg1: well, it was mostly a sentiment; you apparently seem to care about the package :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> dear pitti I don't know, users seems to be using it, see bug 1371290
<ubottu> bug 1371290 in runit (Ubuntu) "Installation sends HUP to PID 1, causing docker containers with bash as PID 1 to stop" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1371290
<LocutusOfBorg1> but if you want to drop it is fine for me, looking at the merge was honestly a PITA
<pitti> yeah, like "I installed this wanna-be unsupported init system and now my stuff breaks"
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg1: there's a number of reverse depends; many of them are only suggests: or have alternatives, but that needs to be checked
<cjwatson> pitti: RT#76351 for Contents on 14.09.  It may well run into https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/1384797 quite often, though.
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1384797 in Launchpad itself "Contents generation races with publisher" [Low,Triaged]
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, thanks
<LocutusOfBorg1> pitti, what do you suggest?
<LocutusOfBorg1> I don't care about runit, and if it makes users break stuff I think we just need to make it go
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg1: if you want to fix the merge, go ahead; otherwise, if you don't care either, feel free to rename to "Please remove runit from vivid" and subscribe  ubuntu-archive
<LocutusOfBorg1> the last runit merge :) my eyes are bleeding
<Saviq> kirkland, hey, is there a way to copy text from byobu's F7 scrollback so that it's available in the X11 clipboard?
<cjwatson> infinity: Could you merge libgcrypt20?  Blocks the imagemagick transition for reasons involving vdr plugins failing to build due to libgcrypt{11,20}-dev conflicts.  I checked that the ppc64el -O2 tweak is still required, at least in a utopic chroot.
<apachelogger> stgraber: hey, ever heared of lxc refusing to get an ip address when multiple containers are starting at the same time? log doesn't seem very eventful http://kci.pangea.pub/job/utopic_unstable_sonnet/ws/lxc.log/*view*/ but lxc-info --ips didn't return anything over a 30 second period http://kci.pangea.pub/job/utopic_unstable_sonnet/70/console
<apachelogger> thing is that this seems to be related to the fact that we are starting up to 30 containers at the same time as a retry outside that scenario will work just fine
<apachelogger> also the user is allowed to have up to 128 veth devices, so I doubt it would be caused by that
<stgraber> hmm. So I guess the things to check are 1) is the container getting bridged to lxcbr0 2) do you see a DHCP request in the host /var/log/syslog
<apachelogger> stgraber: how would I best check 1)?
<stgraber> apachelogger: lxc-info will get you the name of the veth device under Link, then check that against brctl show lxcbr0
<apachelogger> stgraber: ok, thanks, I am going setup additional logging. I'll report back when it happens again ;)
<kirkland> Saviq: sort of
<kirkland> Saviq: presumably, you mean "other than by using your mouse and highlighting", right?
<kirkland> Saviq: if so, then, you need 3rd party utilities (xclip);  see this post: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/131011/use-system-clipboard-in-vi-copy-mode-in-tmux
<pitti> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> utopic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<mdeslaur> So...the new dpkg in vivid-proposed is causing the apt autopkgtest to fail
<mdeslaur> but, looks like dpkg is going to get promoted
<pitti> mdeslaur: oh, dpkg breaks apt?
<mdeslaur> pitti: it's making the test-bug-661537-build-profiles-support test fail
<pitti> mdeslaur: we can still hold it back
<mdeslaur> pitti: so, why isn't jenkins doing an apt autopkgtest for the dpkg upload?
<pitti> mdeslaur: because apt doesn't depend on dpkg
<pitti> (curiously)
<pitti> well, it's essential
<cjwatson> To be fair, causing a build-profiles test to fail is not the end of the world given that nothing is using those yet
<cjwatson> And apt might genuinely need a tweak there
<pitti> yeah, I agree
<cjwatson> There may be a meta-problem that needs to be looked at here, but the actual proximate problem doesn't seem like cause for concern
<mdeslaur> so how do we proceed? the apt failure is blocking my gnupg migration
<mdeslaur> so, stuff that's in essential, and doesn't typically get listed as depends will never get tested properly?
<pitti> mdeslaur: not as rdepends, indeed; the current logic only tests reverse build/binary depends
<cjwatson> Maybe there's a call for some manually-inserted special cases here
<pitti> (not saying that the behaviour is right/desirable, just how it works ATM)
<mdeslaur> pitti: apt does list dpkg-dev as a build-depends, wouldn't that trigger it?
<pitti> mdeslaur: hm, right, it should
<pitti> mdeslaur: TODOed, will check with jibel on MOnday when he's back
<mdeslaur> thanks pitti
<mdeslaur> pitti: can gnupg get manually promoted in the meantime?
<pitti> mdeslaur: yes, I can override the test result of apt for gnupg
<mdeslaur> pitti: please do, thanks
<Saviq> kirkland, great, thanks!
<Saviq> kirkland, and yeah, selecting with mouse is great... until you start splitting vertically or scrolling up
<kirkland> Saviq: right, so in that situation, what I usually do, is first press Shift-F11
<kirkland> Saviq: which makes your current split "full screen"
<kirkland> Saviq: and then highlight
<kirkland> Saviq: Shift-F11 then toggles back out
<Saviq> kirkland, indeed, was missing that, that definitely helps
<Saviq> kirkland, thanks
<cjwatson> doko_: Please could you merge plplot?  Indirectly blocking imagemagick transition (via gnudatalanguage).
<cjwatson> xnox: Any progress with pythonmagick?
<xnox> cjwatson: i must have been disconnected from my irc proxy. i have uploaded that. let me check if that got accepted properly.
<xnox> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pythonmagick/0.9.11-2ubuntu1
<cjwatson> xnox: Ah, so you did, thanks
<cjwatson> Note to self, reload transition page before complaining
 * xnox is having all sorts of connectivity issues today.
<xnox> cjwatson: well i pinged you on irc when i uploaded it. but it clearly didn't make it through the tubes.
<cjwatson> It didn't, indeed
<xnox> on the plus side, i have the perfect yubikey - it has all OTPs (lp, github, etc), U2F for google accounts, and gpg subkeys, and it can do NFC for otp authentication on the phone.
<xnox> launchpad accepted subkey straight away, but debian infrastructure is taking its time to considering whether to accept the update into the keyring =)
<dobey> xnox: how do you read via NFC on an ubuntu phone? :)
<xnox> dobey: the hardware supports it, and the protocol is simple - it's just a url, thus shouldn't be hard to implement.
<xnox> dobey: at the moment however, i'm only using it with Lastpass Android app - for two factor unlocking of my passwords store. And the Yubikey Auth Android App - which triggers HOTP (time and event based) generation on yubikey and displays the results.
<dobey> xnox: just hard to access the hardware in an app in ubuntu :)
<xnox> Yubikey Auth app is quite awesome, since all secrets are stored tamper proof on the yubikey and one can generate time-based OTP for Microsoft, Github, Facebook, Google accounts, and event based like for Launchpad.
 * xnox ponders why we don't do timebased OTPs in launchpad, given that everyone else does as well by default.
<xnox> no need to "resynchronise the key" if one presses the otps too much somewhere.
<dobey> anyway, need to get some lunch, without using nfc payments
<caribou> any quick trick to pass MULTI_OS_DIRECTORY to make using debhelper ?
<cjwatson> like   override_dh_auto_build:\n\tdh_auto_build -- MULTI_OS_DIRECTORY=foo   you mean?
<ricotz> pitti, hi, nearly forgot to mention that upgrading from precise to trusty postgresql-9.1 made a problem while is can't coexist with postgresql-9.3 due some dkpg-divert collision/incompatibility, so it needed to be removed, sorry i dont have a log
<caribou> cjwatson: I need to replace the following cdbs statement :
<caribou> DEB_MAKE_EXTRA_ARGS += MULTI_OS_DIRECTORY=$(DEB_HOST_MULTIARCH)
<caribou> libnss-ldap upstream has removed cdbs & replaced by debhelper
<caribou> I must admit that this is the first time I move a package from cdbs to debhelper
<cjwatson> so then that's as I said above.
<caribou> cjwatson: ok, thanks!
<cjwatson> assuming by debhelper you mean the short dh(1) style
<caribou> cjwatson: yes
<bdmurray> xnox: Do you recall bug 1123798 at all? Not having whoopsie running on the Live CDs seems unfortunate.
<ubottu> bug 1123798 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "ubiquity-dm crashed with dbus.exceptions.DBusException in call_blocking(): org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.TimedOut: Activation of org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit timed out" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1123798
<pitti> ricotz: hm, I need logs, I'm afraid; postgresql-9.1 doesn't ordinarily get diverted
<xnox> bdmurray: yes, i recall that bug. That shouldn't be happening, now that ubiquity-dm (for a few releases now) opens a pam session (which in turn opens a logind session)
<bdmurray> xnox: would running whoopsie and installing be a good test?
<xnox> bdmurray: so if there is no pam_systemd.so configured on the system, logind session will not be established and consolekit fallbacks may kick in. But I thought, by now, we even removed consolekit
<xnox> bdmurray: i don't quite recall the reasons we disable whoopsie - it's installed, it has checks in the upstart job to not run when ubiquity is present.
<xnox> bdmurray: so boot live cd, edit the whoopsie job, start whoopsie, restart lightdm - that should restart ubiquity-dm as well.
<slangasek> xnox, bdmurray: aside from the fact that inotify doesn't work on the unionfs?
<xnox> bdmurray: slangasek: "edit whoopsie job; initctl reload-configuration; start whoopsie"
<xnox> that works.
<slangasek> xnox: yes, but whoopsie itself uses inotify
<xnox> slangasek: hm, it would work if /var/crash inode is updated (e.g. touch /var/crash/.poke, whould cause inode to be created on the overlay, and if whoopsie is started after that, monitoring will start working)
<xnox> slangasek: should i make a patch for casper to setup /var/crash in the overlay?
<slangasek> xnox: no opinion; was just responding to the question of why it was currently disabled, and I think this is why
<xnox> slangasek: i think inode monitoring works correctly, because the reason why we disabled whoopise on the live images, is that when starting live session people say crash popups.
<xnox> slangasek: so actually, i believe it all just works (if even because we crash before starting live session)
<xnox> slangasek: no, that was not the reason. It was UX/rick pressure to disable. ev should know more details.
<bdmurray> update-notifier definitely uses inotify (for crash file detection) and wouldn't work
<slangasek> ok
<bdmurray> and if whoopsie is running and you touch a .upload file the .crash file does get uploaded
<ricotz> pitti, it was about "update-alternatives: using /usr/share/postgresql/9.1/man/man1/psql.1.gz to provide /usr/share/man/man1/psql.1.gz (psql.1.gz) in auto mode." or "update-alternatives: using /usr/share/postgresql/9.1/man/man1/postmaster.1.gz to provide /usr/share/man/man1/postmaster.1.gz (postmaster.1.gz) in auto mode." suggesting an incompatibility, although i am not able to reproduce it in a chroot -- it happened on do-release-upgrade
<ricotz> pitti, sorry
<bdmurray> xnox: So do you think the patch for casper is needed or not?
<infinity> cjwatson: Can do.
<infinity> Hahaha.
<infinity> Dear MoM, congrats on failing to merge a 4-line delta.
<infinity> No love, Me.
<Noskcaj> cyphermox, IS there any chance you could help with bug 1387944 ? I don't think i understand the package well enough to do the main merge
<ubottu> bug 1387944 in bluez (Ubuntu) "Transition to bluez5" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1387944
<bdmurray> slangasek: I'm working on an interim solution for bug 1365079 and I wonder if "title" in 'click info's output is too generic.
<ubottu> bug 1365079 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport should gather package information about click packages" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1365079
<bdmurray> slangasek: for the package name that is
<slangasek> bdmurray: title is indeed not guaranteed to be unique; should probably use name instead?
<bdmurray> slangasek: yeah, that was my idea too. thanks
<sergiusens> +1 on name
<Noskcaj> Can someone please retry libgee-0.8 and modemmanager now vala 0.26 is in main?
<Laney> yep
<Noskcaj> Also please retry dballe, it had a out-of-data dep that has now synced
<infinity> hallyn: Hey, why is libcgmanager0 not linked with libnih?
<infinity> hallyn: Found entirely by accident while running "adequate libc\*" to check my own packages, and there was libcgmanager whining about a bunch of unresolved nih symbols. :P
<infinity> stgraber: ^
<infinity> ... and why is my Ubuntu upgrade trying to install gdm? :P
<infinity> and gnome-shell.
<infinity> Whee.
<infinity> Oh, because I still had gnome-session installed.
#ubuntu-devel 2014-11-01
<Noskcaj> celery's build should be fixed by a retry
 * lpotter wonders where libqt5multimedia5-dev package is
<ScottK> lpotter: You probably want qtmultimedia5-dev
<lpotter> ahh indeed. ta
 * lpotter grumbles about package naming
<ari-tczew> could someone do a rebuild on a https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-greenlet/0.4.5-1/+build/6525041 please?
<hjd> Anyone know why https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/cfitsio hasn't made it into vivid (https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cfitsio)? Couldn't find it in the sync blacklist.
<cjwatson> hjd: Anything that used to be in Ubuntu but has since been deleted requires manual attention rather than being automatically synced (there are a few other similar checks, but that's the relevant one here).  I've synced cfitsio now.
<cjwatson> Previous history here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cfitsio/+publishinghistory
<cyphermox> Noskcaj: it was my intention
<Noskcaj> cyphermox, What did i ask you? I've forgotten
<cyphermox> bluez5 merge
<Noskcaj> oh yep, hopefully that will happen this cycle
<cyphermox> yes, definitely
<cyphermox> but for now we're still block on pulseaudio as I understand it, otherwise we'd regress HSP
<cyphermox> (ie. headset and mic for hangouts, etc.)
<Noskcaj> ok
<cyphermox> I'm in house cleaning right now, but once I'm done I'll write up an email on u-devel, ask when we'll be ready with pulse
<cyphermox> I know diwic mentioned it before in email
<cyphermox> hmm.. we'll need a formal release of pulse before it can happen, I see some pretty critical bits in git
<cyphermox> eg. bluetooth: Implement org.ofono.HandsfreeAudioAgent.Release()
<cyphermox> Noskcaj: in any case, we'll go to bluez5 this cycle regardless of the decision for touch, if it comes to it touch can downgrade back to bluez 4, and it's also only blocking on pulse and ofono
<cyphermox> ofono being a fairly straightforward job of porting the patches on the latest ofono upstream
<Noskcaj> ok
<hjd> cjwatson: Thank you. :) I suspected it might have been removed but I didn't find a bug report on it. Will make a note of the publishinghistory link.
<hjd> The reason I discovered it is that some packages on the FTBFS page failed because they depended on a dev-package from cfitsio. So these packages can presumably be rebuilt once cfitsio is included (I don't remember if the builders have access to packages in -proposed or not)
<hjd> I don't think this happens automatically, so in case someone are able to trigger it the packages in question are ccfits, cpl, esorex, pyxplot, wcslib, wcslib-contrib and python-astropy (at least, might be more)
<jtaylor> it should happen automatically
<ScottK> jtaylor: Depends on if they are depwait or failed.  If they are failed, they need a manual retry.
<jtaylor> missing build dep should be depwait
<jtaylor> but you can ping me on issues with these packages
<hallyn> infinity: i don't know.  perhaps the makefile is messed up.  i recall we had some issues a few months ago with it being statically linked, bu ti thought we'd fixed all that
<hallyn> added to my todo list to look into
<cfp_> any tips on getting patches accepted? I have a fix ready for review/merging on bug #1358966
<ubottu> bug 1358966 in bcmwl (Ubuntu) "bcmwl-kernel-source 6.30.223.248+bdcom-0ubuntu1: bcmwl kernel module failed to build [error: macro "alloc_netdev" requires 4 arguments, but only 3 given]" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1358966
<ScottK> cfp_: Subscribe ubuntu-sponsors to the bug if you haven't.  Other than that, no.
<cfp_> ScottK: thanks
#ubuntu-devel 2014-11-02
<Leviticus> !ops | nooo waaaa
<ubottu> nooo waaaa: Help! Channel emergency! mneptok, Hobbsee, cjwatson, mdz, lamont, Keybuk, or thom!
<goodwill> eh?
<rww> just a troll.
<gr33n-ion> hello
<Noskcaj> hey gr33n-ion
<gr33n-ion> sup :D
<bluesabre> quick question... does pushing to an ubuntu branch result in an upload as well?
<bluesabre> always been unclear about that
<hjd> cjwatson: Hello again. I saw that you synced cl-fad yesterday, would you mind doing the same for cl-interpol? (Would probably resolve the ftbfs issue for pgloader) :)
<cjwatson> hjd: I'll sort it out tomorrow.  Requires a fakesync so didn't get caught in my initial pass.
<cjwatson> (.orig has changed from the contents that the Ubuntu archive remembers from an earlier incarnation)
<teward> is there a list of packages which are automatically synced for vivid?
<tumbleweed> teward: all packages, except the ones that are blacklisted
<teward> tumbleweed: do you have a list of blacklisted packages, somewhere?
<tumbleweed> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/sync-blacklist.txt
<teward> tumbleweed: OK, one last question - we have a modified package here in Ubuntu, nginx, which has one built binary which is in Main.  A sync would really need to be a merge, so how does the auto sync interpret that?
<teward> does it just sync and its up to the devs to just reapply the changes that're needed to be kept, or does that need a manual merge
<tumbleweed> packages are only synced when they aren't modified in ubuntu
<tumbleweed> merges are done by hand
<teward> so I'd ahve to request a merge... figures.
<tumbleweed> usually the last person to touch it does the merge, because they know what changes they made
<cjwatson> If you want to look at the full logic, it's in the auto-sync script in lp:ubuntu-archive-tools
<teward> tumbleweed: right, well, in theory, the last person to touch it was me, but if you want to be really anal about it, the last person to touch the package was mdeslaur
<teward> because marc just sponsored a last-minute change for the nginx package.
<teward> (which was to somewhat-mitigate POODLE)
<teward> so should I be poking mdeslaur to do the merge?
<tumbleweed> no, you're the one on the hook, not him :)
<teward> tumbleweed: insomuchthat marc has upload rights and I don't.
<teward> any merge I do has to be sponsored.
<teward> guess i should dig up my 'how to effectively merge' guide
<tumbleweed> yep
<hjd> cjwatson: ok. Thanks.
<teward> tumbleweed: any kind of guidance on how to perform a merge?
<teward> if i have followed http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/udd-merging.html for creating a merge for a package, where should I push the resulting modifications to?  What is the pattern I should use for uploading this to launchpad?  (I'm used to the traditional debdiff methods :/)
<tumbleweed> teward: you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging ?
<tumbleweed> ah, you read the udd docs
<teward> tumbleweed: MOM failed
<teward> that's why i went the UDD route
<tumbleweed> yes, you can push a branch and propose a merge, but those can be hard to review
<tumbleweed> still that's the reviewer's problem, not yours
<teward> tumbleweed: could I perhaps just do bzr builddeb, then gen a debdiff?
<teward> upload said debdiff to launchpad when i create a merge request bug?
<tumbleweed> failed?
<teward> tumbleweed: E:CouldNotFindDSC
<tumbleweed> yes you can
<tumbleweed> it all looks like it's there. I don't know where you saw that error. https://merges.ubuntu.com/n/nginx/
 * teward shrugs
<teward> i should use the automated reports, either way xD
 * teward yawns
<teward> urgh, i need more coffee
<teward> tumbleweed: ultimately the same report was shown from the bzr/UDD method
<tumbleweed> :P
<teward> namely that the debian/ files had those same conflicts
<teward> which i resolved
<teward> tumbleweed: who do I bother for a cursory review of the debdiff, as this is the first time I've gone the UDD route for creating a merge
<teward> shoudl i go bug mdeslaur who merged it before?
<tumbleweed> if you propose a merge, it'll appear in the sponsoring overview
<teward> tumbleweed: thanks.  QUestion: how often does the sponsorship queue page get updated
<tumbleweed> sorry, I can't remember
<ari-tczew> Laney: I'd like to take a merge on shotwell, you're the last uploader. I hope you're not angry :-)
<Laney> ari-tczew: go for it, happy to review also
<ari-tczew> Laney: ok, I'll subscribe/mark you as reviewer! :-)
#ubuntu-devel 2015-10-26
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> good morning
<seb128> hey dholbach
<dholbach> hey seb128
<dholbach> @pilot in
* udevbot_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Wily (15.10) Released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-wily | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: dholbach
<seb128> dholbach, good way to start the week ;-)
<dholbach> :)
<seb128> dholbach, I'm going to do a shift this week as well, now that xenial is open we can upload things
<dholbach> nice
<darkxst> seb128, dholbach one of these days I will do a patch pilot shift ;)
<seb128> ;-)
<dholbach> go go go!
<dholbach> :)
<darkxst> how would  one add it to the calender?
<seb128> dholbach, ^
<dholbach> darkxst, you'd be the first non-Canonical person to enter :-)
<dholbach> darkxst, on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews?action=raw I added all the folks who are in Canonical who are part of the patch pilot scheme and I regularly create schedule: basically I just go from top to bottom and create an all-day event for folks - everyone's free to move it to another day or do as they please - it's mostly a reminder for folks to not forget their pilot shift
<dholbach> darkxst, I'm happy to add you to it :)
<seb128> pitti, can you skip the kcoreaddons test that block shared-mime-info? that doesn't seem to have anything to do with it
<seb128> "cc1: warning: command line option â-std=c++11â is valid for C++/ObjC++ but not for C"
<pitti> right, that looks like it needs to be fixed in kcoreaddons itself
<pitti> seb128: done
<LocutusOfBorg1> hi folks, can anybody please retry boinc/powerpc on xenial?
<seb128> pitti, also do you know why atk1.0 deja-dups items are flagged as regression when the current log are "pass"?
<LocutusOfBorg1> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/boinc/7.6.12+dfsg-1/+build/8176050
<seb128> pitti, danke
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, done
<pitti> seb128: yes; britney is veeeery slow, so it takes a fair while to catch up
<seb128> k
<pitti> Generated: 2015.10.26 06:12:10 +0000
<seb128> so it's going to autosort itself?
<pitti> yes
<seb128> great
<seb128> danke
<pitti> and snakefruit's load is 27, that doesn't help either :)
<pitti> every morning there's some "git gc" process which is enormously resource hungy
<LocutusOfBorg1> thanks seb128 !
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, yw!
<darkxst> dholbach, sure why not, can only help my quest for core-dev
<LocutusOfBorg1> I'm still wondering why wx wasn't installable, but it seems now
<darkxst> random dates won't work though
<dholbach> ok
<darkxst> dholbach, can do about nowish mon-wed
<dholbach> darkxst, if you don't use google calendar - so you would have more control about wherever the shift goes, I could just send you a reminder once a month - would that work?
<seb128> dholbach reviews desktop code merges now ;-)
<dholbach> seb128, somebody has to do it :-P
<pitti> infinity: I already merged util-linux some three weeks ago in my PPA, so I'm stealing your merge
<xnox> doko: looks like a charming CMake way to say I don't like Mondays after the clock change =)
<xnox> doko: it built none-the-less no? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/blender/2.75.a+dfsg0-2ubuntu2/+build/8187750
<zyga> good morning
<seb128> bdmurray, hey, do you have any idea about what's wrong with the retracing from https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/a93e2f9c2eb0609a371e49d66ea4f99676bfe0a0
<seb128> https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/f56ac1ed80490e348e35a741110483c2c1108860 as well
<seb128> https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/4dcfd17e064c21fad59ef326eb44f171c90cfe79
<dholbach> @pilot out
* udevbot_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Wily (15.10) Released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-wily | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<cjwatson> doko: haskell-*/armhf is failing with "/usr/bin/ld.gold: error: unrecognised output emulation: armelf_linux_eabi" (the string "armelf" appears nowhere in the ghc source package, so not quite sure where this is coming from) - is that a known incompatibility?
<cjwatson> doko: aha, never mind, I just found https://launchpadlibrarian.net/222806891/binutils_2.25.51.20151022-0ubuntu1_2.25.51.20151022-0ubuntu2.diff.gz
<ricotz> hi, is there a semi-official gcc 4.9.x backport for trusty?
<tkamppeter> syncpackage does not work for me any more. I am on Wily and I want to sync a Debian unstable package to xenial.
<tkamppeter> Sorry, I was on the wrong terminal. It is working now.
<pitti> apw: linux/i386 now consistently fails with https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-xenial/xenial/i386/l/linux/20151025_165408@/log.gz
<pitti> apw: "ImportError: No module named LibAppArmor" and some "not found" on easyprof
<pitti> apw: amd64 is the same; I'll force-badtest it for now
<pitti> apw: want a bug about it?
<doko> xnox, no, that's with the one reverted to 3.2.2
<xnox> =(
<pitti> doko: https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-xenial/xenial/amd64/p/python-jsonschema/20151026_131540@/log.gz started failing with "ImportError: No module named functools32"; does that ring a bell?
<pitti> (on python 2.7; the python3 test is fine)
 * pitti uploads the libgif4 -> libgif7 transition to unblock some stuff
<mgedmin> functools32 is https://pypi.python.org/pypi/functools32
<mgedmin> presumably on python3 it can use functools from the stdlib
<mgedmin> wily has http://packages.ubuntu.com/wily/python-functools32
<mgedmin> missing dependency?
<doko> pitti, why is a package building only a python2 module running python3 tests?
<pitti> doko: Binary: python-jsonschema, python3-jsonschema
<pitti> thanks mgedmin ; I'll have a look at the package
<pitti> doko: right, so I indeed think python-jsonschema is missing a python-functools32 dep, I'll loko into it
<pitti> so nevermind, I didn't realize it wasn't an internal module
<doko> jamespage, lifeless, barry, pitti: looks like openstack let's bitrot these forks of the standard library. seen before
<doko> pitti, python-jsonschema is dep-wait, write a MIR ;)
<barry> doko, lifeless, jamespage how badly does openstack need the bleeding edge?
<pitti> doko: ah, indeed that's it -- the new source in -proposed actually does have Depends: python-functools32, but it doesn't build
<Odd_Bloke> infinity: cjwatson: wgrant: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/live-build/+bug/1510095 is needed for moving all of our building in to LP (which is on the powerpc critical path).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1510095 in live-build (Ubuntu) "live-build doesn't know the correct name for kernels in /boot" [Undecided,New]
<pitti> doko: and yeah, seems madly backporting stuff from python 3 instead of just moving to python 3 :(
<Odd_Bloke> Next up: preparing a livecd-rootfs patch
<melodie> hello
<melodie> I would like to create pool and dist in Bento Openbox, and although I know there are docs about it, I'm not sure it applies to ISOS. Any advice on where to start the right way?
<cjwatson> Odd_Bloke: will extend a little and apply
<infinity> Odd_Bloke: Ahh, nice catch.  We've never done a ppc64el livefs (other than server, which doesn't install a kernel), so never noticed, I guess.
<infinity> It would probably make more sense to make the vmlinu[z|x] code just look for both, rather than hardcoding what each arch ships, so we don't have to hunt down what to change if we flip ppc to vmlinuz in the future.
<infinity> cjwatson: ^
<infinity> Currently, some ppc64el boot modes are incapable of booting anything but a coff binary, but that's meant to be fixed $some_day.
<cjwatson> OK if you make me do that then I don't have time now.
<cjwatson> But I can apply a trivially extended version of Odd_Bloke's patch now.
<infinity> cjwatson: Haha.  No.  Go ahead and apply his patch, I just need to make a mental note that it's there.
<cjwatson> OK, done.
<infinity> cjwatson: I was considering going through the pain of a live-build merge this cycle, so might clean up things like that along the way.
<cjwatson> Yep.
<pitti> urgh, new giflib 5 isn't even in Debian yet
<doko> cjwatson, here is one more haskell issue: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gcl/2.6.12-26 (if you would like to have a look, I assume it's triggered by binutils)
<cjwatson> doko: Pretty sure that's Lisp, not Haskell
<doko> ouch
<cjwatson> I have no idea about Lisp stuff, sorry
<doko> I'll ping camm about it
<chiluk> mterry, can we get bug 1432871 pushed back into vivid today?  I've seen no complaints.
<ubottu> bug 1432871 in coreutils (Ubuntu Vivid) "`df` shows bind mounts instead of real mounts." [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1432871
<chiluk> mterry I'll work on the trusty backport today as well.  It's entirely likely that the same patch will simply apply to trusty..
<mterry> chiluk, ah yes...  ok, will try to upload to vivid today
<chiluk> mterry patch is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/vivid/+source/coreutils/+bug/1432871/comments/9
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1432871 in coreutils (Ubuntu Vivid) "`df` shows bind mounts instead of real mounts." [Undecided,In progress]
<mterry> chiluk, yeah.  And I won't include a merge from Debian that causes a FTBFS this time  :)
<doko> tumbleweed, barry: http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/p/python-cffi/xenial/amd64/  the 3.5 tests seem to succeed, the 2.7 tests are failing ...
<chiluk> mterry lol
<doko> pitti, http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/p/python-astropy/xenial/amd64/  do I interpret it correctly that there's just some stderr output with the 3.5 tests that lets the tests fail?
<pitti> doko: right; seems easy enough to fix, I'll add it to my list
<pitti> doko: doesn't seem to be the only blocker left, but if/once it is we can also easily hint it
<pitti> doko: (I assume you go through p3-defaults)
<doko> yep
<pitti> doko: the postgresql-multicorn one is also something different; I'll hint it for now
<pitti> ah well, I don't want to let the new multicorn in, so I'd rather hint python3-defaults once we analyzed all regressions there
<tjaalton> huh, 15.10 is not able to resize win10 partitions?
<tjaalton> or is it because of the nvme device
<doko> zyga, !!!
<tumbleweed> doko: yeah, I'm looking at cffi tests
<bdmurray> seb128: I'll dig into that error. Could you have a look at https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-murray/software-properties/bug-1506169/+merge/275560?
<doko> zyga, pitti: is this just missing test dependency? but then, why does it succeed on the other archs? http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/c/checkbox-support/xenial/armhf/
<pitti> doko: python3-dbus is already installed on cloud images (http://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/wily/current/wily-server-cloudimg-amd64.manifest)
<pitti> doko: so most probably missing test dep, yes
<pitti> doko: aptdaemon/armhf failure will go to pass in next britney run, FYI
<doko> mvo, mind looking at http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/a/apt-clone/xenial/amd64/ ?
<pitti> jdstrand: wrt. https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-xenial/xenial/amd64/c/click-apparmor/20151026_130250@/log.gz, is "touch: cannot touch â/usr/share/click/frameworks/ubuntu-sdk-13.10.frameworkâ: No such file or directory" expected?
<lifeless> doko: reallu don't appreciate the nasty tone there, since functools32 has taken me nearly a year to get access to update it
<pitti> mvo, doko: I filed bug 1510060 about that this morning with some initial analysis, but I don't know further from there
<ubottu> bug 1510060 in apt-clone (Ubuntu) "test regression: TestCloneUpgrade.test_clone_upgrade_synthetic" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1510060
<jdstrand> pitti: no. I need to look at it
<pitti> jdstrand: i. e. was the 13.10 framework dropped or so?
<jdstrand> maybe
<lifeless> doko: and I haven't had time since getting that access (about 1.5 weeks ago!) to action merging all the fixes and getting a release done. The author, noone to do with OpenStack abandoned it further back than that
<jdstrand> but I need to look why the touch is being done
<lifeless> doko: and unittest2 and mock were left abandoned by voidspace, who works @ Canonical on non-Python stuff now
<lifeless> doko: so I picked them up to help folk, so again, not 'openstack bitrotting forks of stdlib stuff'
<doko> lifeless, I only see it used by openstack packages
<lifeless> doko: not sure what that has to do with the upstream maintenance etc
<lifeless> op, sorry, I was thinking of funcsigs, functools32 is a different one again
<pitti> doko: apt-clone and apport have force-badtest btw, you can ignore these
 * doko starts packaging ipython 4.0
<lifeless> doko: which is maintained here - https://github.com/MiCHiLU/python-functools32 - I don't recognise the person as having anything to do with OpenStack
<jdstrand> pitti: ok, it is simply setting up a minimal framework. I'm guesssing /usr/share/click/frameworks doesn't exist
<lifeless> barry: generally our minimum versions are either very accurate - bumped when we need a feature not in old versions
<jdstrand> pitti: ie, it is creating that framework file by touch it
<lifeless> barry: *or*
<jdstrand> touching*
<pitti> jdstrand: right; I just wondered what changed since wily
<jdstrand> idk
<lifeless> barry: wild guesses, for new deps where we don't know what minimum version is needed we just pick the current release at the time we add it to the system
<jdstrand> Depends: @, click
<jdstrand> click is supposed to ship that dir
<pitti> jdstrand: note that a whole load of stuff was copied from the overlay PPA to xenial, so it doesn't need to be a change uploded to xenial directly
<jdstrand> I don't yet have any xenial stuff setup. I was literally just about to do that
<lifeless> doko: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/functools32 seems to be getting quite some downloads
<pitti> jdstrand: ok, so the idea is that the dir exists via the "click" package?
<pitti> jdstrand: ack, let me run the test here and shell into it
<lifeless> doko: so maybe most users are not OpenStack but not packaged in Ubuntu
<jdstrand> pitti: yes
<jdstrand> pitti: hmm, maybe only on older versions
<lifeless> doko: anyhow it would be really nice if perhaps you assumed good faith, or talked to OpenStack folk, before casting aspersions like 'bitrot' and 'fork' around
<jdstrand> $ dpkg -S /usr/share/click/frameworks/
<jdstrand> ubuntu-sdk-libs:amd64: /usr/share/click/frameworks
<jdstrand> on vivid: $ dpkg -S /usr/share/click/frameworks
<jdstrand> click: /usr/share/click/frameworks
<pitti> jdstrand: in the VM now; indeed no /usr/share/click/frameworks/ dir here
<lifeless> barry: if there is a specific library you want a read on, looking in git blame openstack/requirements:global-requirements.txt should let you see the reason we revised the version specifier on it
<pitti> dpkg-query: no path found matching pattern /usr/share/click/frameworks
<pitti> jdstrand: ubuntu-sdk-libs isn't installed, just click (and that doesn't ship that dir)
<pitti> jdstrand: if this just creates a "fake" framework, would a simple mkdir -p be correct? or do you want to test that the dir is there already?
<jdstrand> pitti: that is what I was thinking
<jdstrand> pitti: I was going to look at click-apparmor today anyway
<pitti> jdstrand: ok; seems straightforward enough, I just wanted to check with you that we don't do something bad
<barry> lifeless: ack
<jdstrand> pitti: if you want to do this right now, feel free, otherwise I can do it in a little while
<lifeless> barry: (or ask me and I'll do that + use memory :))
<barry> lifeless: :)
<seb128> bdmurray, hey, ok, going to have a look
<pitti> jdstrand: as you wish; but I guess it'll unblock python3-defaults faster and take off some pressure?
<jdstrand> pitti: doko did ping me about it, yes
<pitti> jdstrand: I'll upload it then, seems we generally agree
<jdstrand> but like I said, I'll get to it today
<jdstrand> sure, that's fine
<pitti> jdstrand: thanks for checking!
<jdstrand> np :)
<pitti> works fine now, uploaded
<jdstrand> yay
<pitti> doko: hinted p-multicorn
<pitti> doko: so we're down to p-cffi and ipython AFAICS
 * pitti waves good bye, time for French class
<doko> pitti, looking at ipython, maybe we can wave this too
<didrocks> pitti: bon courage !
<lifeless> ddddd
<seb128> bdmurray, I don't really know the driver part of the source but cyphermox worked on it so maybe he's better placed to ack that
<apw> pitti, best to file bugs about adt failures yes, we can close them or reassign them
<mvo> pitti: thanks, I have a look at the apt-clone issue later or tomorrow
<seb128> doko, is there any reason you didn't send http://launchpadlibrarian.net/158604914/graphite2_1.2.4-1_1.2.4-1ubuntu1.diff.gz to Debian? seems to be the only diff we have on that package, crossbuilding could be useful in Debian as well or it doesn't apply to them for some reason?
<doko> seb128, the cmake cross build patches are not in debian. not sure why xnox didn't forward these
<seb128> xnox, ^
<xnox> ... because they were not welcome there at the time.
<xnox> and i kind of change employment before finishing upstreaming them.
<xnox> there is extensive patch to cmake itself. Which has not been adopted either in debian, nor upstream.
<seb128> k
<teward> anyone able to help me debug an sbuild problem?  Namely, this shows up, when trying to local build a Xenial package, and the schroot was newly created with mk-sbuild.  http://paste.ubuntu.com/12971214/
<teward> (it's hampering test building)
<infinity> teward: What's your union type in /etc/schroot/chroot.d/whatever?
<infinity> teward: And does it match what you have for working chroots?
<teward> infinity: i'm thinking it's a problem with the kernel
<teward> i'm on the lts-vivid kernel, on Trusty, and there's kernel errors - kernel errors to syslog and dmesg here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/12971437/
<infinity> teward: Well, do your previous schroots have the same issue?
<teward> infinity: yep
<teward> all schroots do
<teward> hence why i'm thinking kernel
<teward> (potentially)
<teward> esp. given the dmesg and syslog errors
<teward> i have an older kernel still installed i'm going to test on
<infinity> apw: Did you ever SRU back the sbuild changes needed for overlay/overlayfs on lts-vivid?
<apw> infinity, i believe arges did in the end for us
<infinity> It's in -proposed.
<infinity> \o/
<infinity> teward: Upgrade to the schroot in trusty-proposed and try with that.
<arges> yup
<teward> upgrading, standby
<infinity> And v-done ten days ago, how did that slip past us?
 * infinity releases.
<teward> fixed
<infinity> And released to updates.
<teward> infinity: apw: thank you both :)
<infinity> apw: Oh, which reminds me.  Does wily (or lts-wily) have the compat code?
<apw> infinity, both should indeed
<infinity> apw: I don't remember what we decided there.  Keep the compat stuff all the way to X, or just in lts-w and lts-x, or...?
<apw>     UBUNTU: SAUCE: overlay: add backwards compatible overlayfs format support V4
<apw> we decided we needed it all the way to lts-x, and we might turn it off in x, but even that is not set in stone
<infinity> apw: Well, if we have it in X, then we're supporting it all the way to lts-18.04 as well.  We need to cut it off at some point.
<infinity> apw: But yes, lts-x needs it for obvious reasons.
<apw> infinity, i think x likely off and lts-x on, so x is the last kernel which has to carry the patch
<apw> infinity, and it is a CONFIG_* so we can do that
<infinity> apw: Kay.  Should probably turn it off on the first 4.3.0 upload, so we have plenty of time to deal with potential fallout and sort out lts->lts upgrade scenarios and other crap.
<apw> infinity, yep, concur with all that
<apw> infinity, i suspect we need it enabled in X just _really_hard_ to actually use, like a sysctl to turn it on
<infinity> apw: I'm not sure that helps, really.  I mean, if you reboot and your overlays don't come back, will hunting for a sysctl be the first thing you do? :P
<apw> infinity, nope, its a nightmare :)
<apw> infinity, we do have a migration script which is something and in theory it is reversible too
<infinity> apw: I guess if it vomits in dmesg with a very loud "THIS IS DEPRECATED, ENABLE /proc/foo=1 TO TEMPORARILY ENABLE OVERLAYFS IF YOU NEED TO RECOVER LOST DATA, THEN MIGRATE TO OVERLAY ASAP"
<infinity> apw: So, the filesystem would need to be built in for that to work, and just if /proc/foo != 1, vomit to dmesg, else mount stuff, but still yell.
<infinity> apw: Yelling in either case being appropriate, so people don't just enable and forget about it.
<apw> yeah
<infinity> apw: Could also yell to stderr in the userspace helper, for people who suck at reading dmesg.
<infinity> apw: That should cover most bases, except for people being intentionally dense.
<apw> yeah indeed
<teward> infinity: apw: so when X comes around what will I need to do?  I tend to stick LTS-to-LTS, so if all my schroots break, what's the solution for that?  Or is that undetermined?
<teward> (by that point I may redo my schroots though)
<infinity> teward: If your schroots aren't persistent, it's just a matter of s/overlayfs/overlay/ in the config files.
<teward> ahh, okay
<apw> right, depends what you are using it for
<infinity> teward: If they are persistent, you'll want to shut down the sessions (saving whatever data you need), and start new sessions after the above sed.
<infinity> teward: If you don't intend to downgrade from lts-v to 3.16 or 3.13 ever again, you can do that today.
<teward> I don't, actually, the only reason I kept the older kernels around was schroot not working but I never bothered to hunt down the cause
<teward> infinity: thanks by the way for helping me debug this :)
<infinity> NP.
<infinity> apw: lxc is the usecase that scares me, since I think they're more likely to have persistent overlays across reboots.
<infinity> apw: But maybe lxc itself knows enough about its roots to do a clever migration on upgrade.
<infinity> apw: Probably a chat with stgraber is in order.
<apw> infinity, yep, its a problem indeed.  they made it very hard for us when they did this
<infinity> apw: Well, if you have migration code that works, the schroot and lxc persistence-on-boot jobs can both check running kernel version, if high enough, scan all roots that are listed as overlayfs, call migration script, sed config files, then recover sessions.
<infinity> apw: It's gross, but workable.
<apw> infinity, yeah, i guess indeed
<infinity> apw: There's no going back to 3.13 at that point, but I think trying to support that is insane.
<infinity> apw: Well, we could call your script in reverse if the kernel version drops again, but ew, no.
<apw> infinity, well the conversion is in principle reversible at least
<infinity> apw: Except for the purpose of dist-upgrade having to function, we won't in any support running xenial on 3.13, so I think people should expect a bit of breakage if they reboot into the old kernel.
<infinity> apw: YMMV, etc.
<infinity> apw: We could at least maybe be kind enough to semaphore the upgrade's occurred and not try to recover sessions after a downgrade, if that would be potentially destructive.
<infinity> apw: But I don't think thinking too hard about downgrades is worth it.
<apw> infinity, indeed
<teward> infinity: mk-sbuild breaks now though
<teward> i think
<apw> teward, if so that is broken, and file a bug for sure
<teward> apw: well it errored for a different schroot
<teward> so i'm removing one that I need to remake and testing
<teward> if the error happens there, then there'll be a bug
<teward> and a link here
<teward> i wonder though if it's because the older schroots here don't support?
 * teward shrugs
<bdmurray> seb128: the retraced stacktrace was empty - http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12972040/
<hjd> Could someone please poke https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/felix-main for a rebuild in xenial. Now that a newer version of felix-bundlerepository, I think it might work a bit better :)
<cjwatson> hjd: done
<hjd> cjwatson:  Thank you :)
 * hjd may end up going through the list of ftbfs issues in xenial looking for more low-hanging fruit
<teward> apw: E: /etc/schroot/chroot.d/sbuild-wheezy-i386: line 11 [wheezy-i386] union-type: Unknown filesystem union type âoverlayâ <-- i have a wheezy schroot for nginx test builds, but if 'overlay' won't work here, and mk-sbuild complains here...
<teward> it appears to correctly build the source-xenial-amd64 schroot but then throws that error
 * tumbleweed has given up on unionfs for sbuild, for the moment. Tarballs work (although they are slow and annoying)
<tumbleweed> err overlayfs
<teward> tumbleweed: i'm on lts-vivid kernel so everything's using 'overlay' now and that appears to error
<tumbleweed> (but that's Debian's kernel, not Ubuntu's...)
<tumbleweed> IIRC overlayfs support was only added to sbuild fairly recently
 * teward shrugs
<tumbleweed> but it causes kernel lockups for me
<apw> teward, sounds like we need "more" support, sigh
<apw> please file a bug so we don't forget to look at it
<teward> apw: ack, against what? devscripts?
<teward> erm. ubuntu-dev-scripts or w/e provides mk-sbuild ?
<teward> wow it fails schroot for all old releases
<teward> apw: E:Critical
<teward> apw: so now there's massive failure
<teward> :/
<teward> apw: and it appears to be related to older releases
<teward> my wily schroot is affected
<apw> teward, well mk-sbuild works in wily i am pretty sure, hmmm
<apw> anyhow, file a bug with nice verbose what you are doing in there
<melodie> hi again,
<melodie> I would like to create pool and dist in Bento Openbox, and although I know there are docs about it, I'm not sure it applies to ISOS. Any advice on where to start the right way?
<melodie> I asked earlier today and didn't get any answer, so if anyone has an idea about it, I'd be glad
<sarnold> melodie: are you making a CD installer or an apt repository?
<aalex> hello
<aalex> When is the next freeze for Ubuntu 16.04 ?
<aalex> And should my package be in Debian unstable or testing for it to be included?
<aalex> Thank you :)
<melodie> hi sarnold an ISO live desktop
<melodie> aalex in Debian anyway, for the details you could ask questions at #debian-mentors on irc.oftc.net
<hjd> aalex: The automatic Debian import doesn't seem to stop before medio Febraruary (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenialXerus/ReleaseSchedule)
<aalex> melodie: my software is already in debian, but there are bugs with it... I just need to know when I should fix them so that it's in Ubuntu
<sarnold> aalex: the next freeze is probably a beta1 freeze, moths away, but perhaps existing users in debian would like those bugs fixed too :)
<teward> apw: grr, it's every schroot not supporting 'overlay' now... something weird must be going on :/
<aalex> hjd: thanks a lot. That is useful to me.
<aalex> sarnold: mid-february is fine? I will, of course, do another release as soon as possible, but at least I then know that I don't need to spend a few nights without sleep in order to fix this for the next freeze. :)
<melodie> sarnold so for a CD, would you have any lead for me?
<sarnold> melodie: sorry, not really, I was just unclear about what it was you were trying to make :)
<sarnold> aalex: yes, please get some sleep :)
<teward> apw: switching the union type to 'overlayfs' resolved the issues - so it's a case of pure 'overlay' not being supported
<teward> yet
<melodie> I'm not trying, I do a version with Openbox (for end users), but so far I have not used pool and dist, and I'd like to start adding them
<melodie> just I need insights on how that works: just add them, and the system will be aware about them or are there special configs needed? no clue yet
<melodie> sarnold Bento Openbox: http://linuxvillage.org/en/ and http://bentovillage.me
<sarnold> nice :)
<melodie> sarnold thanks :D
<teward> infinity: poke - changing 'overlayfs' to 'overlay' by simple sed (with none of the sessions in use) didn't work, prompted the errors i'm seeing.
<teward> apw: infinity: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sbuild/+bug/1510245 is the relevant bug for this latest headache
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1510245 in sbuild (Ubuntu) "sbuild schroots fail for older releases which don't support 'overlay' and only support 'overlayfs'" [Undecided,New]
<teward> infinity: so I don't think we can use 'overlay' in place of 'overlayfs' until we actually are on Xenial (so my Trusty system will need overlayfs still)
<infinity> teward: Oh.  We may not have backported that fully, then. :P
<infinity> teward: Not sure I'd consider that a bug, to be honest, since having only some of the kernel support overlay would be confusing anyway.
<teward> infinity: only following what apw said, file a bug.
<teward> infinity: but in any case, overlay isn't fully backported
<teward> but the schroot update was needed to 'work' with overlayfs it appears, on lts-vivid and later
<teward> infinity: if it's 'not a bug' then Invalid is always a viable option :0
<teward> :) *
<teward> that isn't, however, in my purview to set :)
<teward> at least not for this :)
<teward> infinity: it does, however, pose an interesting question for Xenial, which I think you had brought up: do we do the 'migration' and 'upgrade' automagically, or do we just error saying that they have to update the union type or such
<infinity> teward: Yeah.  Andy and I will argue drunkenly about that next week.
<teward> infinity: my two cents: error, but be useful in the error message, and say that overlayfs is not supported, or such, if you're on Xenial
<teward> but of course, that's just my opinion, I'll leave it to you all for the decision :)
<teward> infinity: in any case, thank you and apw for solving the 'lack of overlayfs support' issue I was seeing earlier xD
<mterry> barry, have you had any luck with community involvement in python3 ports?  Might it be worth while to have a UOS session detailing the places people could help?  (I'd gladly talk about what needs to happen for duplicity in such a session)
<barry> mterry: not so much with the ubuntu community specifically that i can recall, but in the wider debian+ubuntu world, lots of great contributions
<mterry> barry, well still, do you have any UOS sessions you are running in which you could plug the effort?  If not,  maybe I'll make a little blog post and calling out duplicity as something I could mentor
<mterry> barry, worst case if none of us get to it, we could end up dropping deja-dup...  I certainly wouldn't mind.  Though I don't know how invested seb128 is in having a backup UI
<barry> mterry: we have a session on python3 plans for xenial.  should we piggyback on that? http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1511/meeting/22568/python3-only-on-the-images/
<mterry> barry, ah that session is exactly what I was hoping we had.  Just a shout out in there for help might be good.  I assume we still have that spreadsheet of work-needing-to-be-done that we could point people at
<barry> mterry: we do but it's probably horribly out of date
<mterry> barry, I'll make sure to attend, but don't need to speak
<mterry> barry, fair
<barry> mterry: awesome.  plugs are always helpful :)
<mterry> barry, so where does /sbin/system-image-upgrader live / come from?  (it's the command used when upgrading the system image)
<mterry> It doesn't seem to be on my device normally
<barry> mterry: do you mean the magical blob that runs in recovery?
<mterry> barry, yeah
<barry> mterry: fwiw, i have never touched that, and only looked at the code once or twice
<barry> mterry: the best i can point you at is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ImageBasedUpgrades/Upgrader
<mterry> OK.  thanks
<barry> but warning that that wiki page could e way out of date
#ubuntu-devel 2015-10-27
<pitti> apw: ack, I filed bug 1510362 about it for nwo
<ubottu> bug 1510362 in linux (Ubuntu) "[xenial] autopkgtest regression" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1510362
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> good morning
<seb128> hey dholbach
<dholbach> salut seb128
<melodie> hi
<sladen> hello melodie
<melodie> hi sladen
<sladen> just ask your question so that everyone can see it at the same time
<melodie> I have a question about the content of ISO, because I want to improve Bento Openbox Remix build. The question is about pool/dist and about EFI or any added package such as drivers for specific hardware, and so on: how does the system know if it has to choose a package in the pool directory? Does it work just by "magic hardware detection" and some pipes between it and apt?
<melodie> I hope my question does not sound too dumb, as I really don't have a clear idea about that sphere of processes
<melodie> sladen do you think anyone here will have a doc to point me to, or insights they can provide?
<sladen> asking questions is never dumb
<melodie> thanks :D
<sladen> however I'm still trying to work out if /I/ understand the question correctly, in order to be able to answer it or point you towards somebody who might know
<sladen> melodie: have you got an example of package that might/might not be chosen, and which you have in mind?
<sladen> melodie: eg. are you thinking of something like an Nvidia graphics driver, or a USB modem driver?
<sladen> melodie: ideally all hardware should do something useful/sensible when plugged in, and it's a bug if it doesn't
<melodie> yes, first idea is about efibootmgr
<sladen> melodie: but remixes are normally more about remixing the user applications/desktop environments/languages rather than hardware support
<melodie> I aim to bring Bento Openbox Remix to a tech level as close as possible to what is provided by the official versions
<melodie> I do it starting from "outside", and will dive into the tech deeper and deeper as time goes
<melodie> 2012: the remix is LTS and works (done with Ubuntu Builder)
<melodie> 2014 started working on the Trusty LTS (still the same tool but is not dev anymore, and someone shows me the seeds, however my configs aren't packaged so I have to be patient)
<sladen> I think vaillant used to be one of the developers of Ubuntu Builder
<melodie> now I start using Customizer instead of Ubuntu-Builder, but I want to master the "pool/dist" area, which I haven't so far. next I'll see if I can learn packaging the user prefs
<sergiusens> cjwatson, hey, is that "y-series" for destination series I see on launchpad's copy packages interface expected?
<melodie> never mind Ubuntu Builder, it's over. Customizer works and while the project continues to provide recent ISO's it's alive. Between versions I want to learn to make it better
<cjwatson> sergiusens: yes, you won't actually be able to copy to it because it's marked Future but the series exists
<cjwatson> sergiusens: though maybe the copy target vocabulary should filter it out, file a bug
<melodie> sladen when I'll handle  pool/dist and be able to package the parts that still need to be packaged, I'll do a meta-package, a session and see if I can start using real seeds.
<sergiusens> cjwatson, sure thing, thanks
<melodie> sladen so in the case of efibootmgr package, and knowing there is also the BOOT/EFI/ directory in the 64bits isos, how does that work under the hood? would you know that,
<melodie> ?
<sladen> FourDollars: ^^think you might have been the last person to touch efibootmgr (since then it's been a straight import from Debian)
<FourDollars> sladen: yes?
<melodie> sladen oh!
<melodie> hi FourDollars
<FourDollars> Hi melodie
<melodie> this is about my noobs questions related to how pool/dist and other additions such as BOOT/EFI/* are "seen" and used in the 64bits ISOs (or other pool packages seen but the hardware recognition tools)
<melodie> I'd like to understand how all this is processed during the start of the live and or after it's started
<sladen> melodie: I don't know boot stuff well anymore; but I should imagine that locating packages comes a lot later than the early stages of boot.  So they seem to be going in different directions
<FourDollars> The files under BOOT/EFI/* can be downloaded from some url. Let me search for it.
<sladen> melodie: EFI->Grub->Kernel->initramfs->rootfs->...->Debian-installer (or any particular GUI font end for it)
<melodie> sladen where "EFI â" is the EFI in the "BIOS / EFI" computer?
<melodie> that would be "EFI â Grub-EFI" ?
<FourDollars>  /EFI/BOOT/BOOTx64.efi is defined by the UEFI spec. for 64 bits UEFI BIOS.
<melodie> FourDollars I read you
<FourDollars> Read it from http://www.uefi.org/specifications
<FourDollars>  /EFI/BOOT/BOOTx64.efi will bring up the GRUB and then GRUB will bring up the Linux kernel and initramfs.
<melodie> how does the "system" (what part of it?) acknowledges the /EFI/BOOT/BOOTx64.EFI|grubx64.efi presence?
<melodie> FourDollars I try to understand how the "magic" works there
<FourDollars> That is what UEFI BIOS does.
<sladen> melodie: the EFI firmware looks through the available boot devices, and looks if any of the available boot devices contains a file called '/EFI/BOOT/BOOTx64.EFI', loads it into memory, and runs it
<FourDollars> melodie: UEFI BIOS will try all boot entries in NVRAM and then search for some pre-defined files.
<FourDollars> melodie: There is no magic and they are documented at http://www.uefi.org/specifications.
<melodie> sladen oh ok!
<melodie> FourDollars ok, some reading to do, thanks
<FourDollars> melodie: no problem
<melodie> if you have insights for me, about how that works for other packages in pool in the ISOS? I have browsed through the pool of several Ubuntu official flavors and noticed they don't necessarily contain the same packages, which means the devs did different choices (not fixed by an Ubuntu convention for instance)
<FourDollars> melodie: BTW, the efibootmgr only edits some variables in NVRAM as I know.
<melodie> FourDollars I don't know about that, it's deeped (lower/closer to the hardwareÃ  that I have learned about.
<melodie> FourDollars I just browsed my favorite computer dictionnary to read about NVRAM : that's the firmware, right?
<melodie> deeped/deeper* (sorry for the typo)
<sladen> melodie: one (shouldn't) need to worry about EFI when remixing
<FourDollars> melodie: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/trusty/main/installer-amd64/current/images/cdrom/debian-cd_info.tar.gz
<melodie> sladen I use Ubuntu Mini Remix to build on it, which means there is no EFI nor pool/dist at the beginning
<melodie> FourDollars I look
<TJ-> melodie: UEFI boot from removable media expects to find the Simple Media Boot Path, which means an EFI System Partition with the boot-loader at /EFI/BOOT/BOOT${ARCH}.EFI
<melodie> FourDollars that's the sources?
<sladen> melodie: Grub
<FourDollars> melodie: The files under /EFI/BOOT/ such as BOOTx64.efi is in ./grub/efi.img in  http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/trusty/main/installer-amd64/current/images/cdrom/debian-cd_info.tar.gz.
<melodie> TJ- yes, ok I get this. (I have installed only on two machines having UEFI so far, and learned that side of the story)
<FourDollars> s/is/are/
<TJ-> melodie: OK, I only just came in. Was there some other aspect to the info you are looking for?
<melodie> TJ yes, about the packages in pool/dist : what process makes them either chosen or ignored, depending on the hardware where the live boots?
<sladen> melodie: are you wondering about different architectures (x86 vs amd64)
<melodie> FourDollars I would not know yet how to use the link you just gave me, apart from looking what it contains (but I'll learn that later when the time comes, now I just try to understand the mechanics)
<TJ-> melodie: Do you mean, for an ISO image which has package A in its /pool/ already, what makes the installer (d-i/ubiquity) install that package, or do you mean what controls the packages actually included in the /pool/ at CD image creation time?
<melodie> sladen no, I guess 32bits don't have UEFI?
<FourDollars> melodie: OK
<TJ-> melodie: there is 32-bit UEFI too
<melodie> TJ- " what makes the installer (d-i/ubiquity) install that package" and if you explain me what controls the package installed in the pool at CD image creation time, I'll just ask you if the info in that doc is enough for me to get the anwser?  â
<melodie> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization#Modify_pool_structure_to_include_more_packages
<melodie> TJ- ah!
<TJ-> melodie: The installed image, including packages, is generally controlled by a preseed file
<melodie> 32 bit uefi...
<TJ-> melodie: the preseed file is generally included on the kernel command-line at boot-time, by the boot-manager
<melodie> TJ- ok preseed, the last thing I'll need to worry about, once I will have created packages for everything, which I haven't yet
<melodie> I'll do some tests with the command lines included in that part https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization#Modify_pool_structure_to_include_more_packages
<FourDollars> melodie: The live system is bought up by casper. You can see boot=casper in the kernel parameter.
<melodie> FourDollars yes!
<FourDollars> melodie: It is very helpful to extract initrd.lz and read what it is doing.
<FourDollars> s/extract/decompress/
<melodie> some time I'll ask to be explained the different contents in /usr/share/casper, for now all I know is that some scripts are to be considered and or added in the casper/bottom section.
<melodie> FourDollars initrd.lz needs to be renamed to be extracted, right?
<melodie> to .gz then gunzip?
<TJ-> melodie: best thing is to read the source/documentation od the cdimage package. See e.g. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/ubuntu-cdimage/mainline/view/head:/README
<cjwatson> initrd.lz is compressed with lzma, not gzip.  use unlzma -S .lz
<cjwatson> (might be worth making it be xz at some point so that we don't have to argue with iso9660 file formats about >3-char extensions)
<melodie> "cpio -i < initrd
<melodie> 185979 blocs
<melodie> "
<melodie> cjwatson oh so!
<FourDollars> melodie: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CustomizeLiveInitrd
<melodie> cjwatson I didn't know about the "unlzma -S .lz" and renaming it to gz then gunzip then cpio worked. there is some trick under.. ?
<melodie> FourDollars I look
<melodie> FourDollars cjwatson TJ- sladen I appreciate your help and insights greatly! This is all very good knowledge for me. I need a cup of coffee and a piece of bread and will be right back. :)
<melodie> cjwatson unlzma -S does that:
<melodie> "# unlzma -S initrd.lz
<melodie> unlzma: compressed data not read from a terminal. Use -f to force decompression.
<melodie> unlzma: For help, type: unlzma -h"
<melodie> I'll retry with -f
<cjwatson> melodie: you didn't accurately transcribe what I said
<cjwatson> -S is an option that takes an extension
<cjwatson> unlzma -S .lz initrd.lz
<melodie> ah!
<melodie> ok
<melodie> cjwatson well:
<melodie> # unlzma -S .lz initrd.lz
<melodie> unlzma: Decoder error
<melodie> and:
<melodie> # file initrd.lz
<melodie> initrd.lz: gzip compressed data, from Unix, last modified: Thu Oct 22 22:47:26 2015
<melodie> when I do move to gz, then gunzip, then cpio -i it works
<cjwatson> oh, well, if your image is broken such that it's generating gzipped files and putting them in .lz ...
<cjwatson> afaik the standard Ubuntu images are not broken in that way
<cjwatson> $ sudo mount -oro vivid-desktop-amd64.iso /mnt
<cjwatson> $ file /mnt/casper/initrd.lz
<cjwatson> /mnt/casper/initrd.lz: LZMA compressed data, streamed
<melodie> cjwatson that's intriguing I'll do a search to try to find why
<melodie> cjwatson I'll try to see if I find a difference in the /etc/mksquashfs directory scripts
<mitya57> slangasek, can you please subscribe the foundations team to setuptools-scm bugs (for bug 1510532)?
<ubottu> bug 1510532 in setuptools-scm (Ubuntu) "[MIR] setuptools-scm" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1510532
<doko> mitya57, tumbleweed, barry: python3.5 now the default in xenial
<barry> doko: +1
<mitya57> \o/
<rbasak> Xenial is open for general uploads now, right? That's what "Archive: open" means?
<barry> doko: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PnPLZRM2hu7ucv1yuq7Fd5hjNw_DYupHIYZpoP4-xHk/edit#gid=0
<rbasak> Only there hasn't been an ubuntu-devel-announce mail, hence I'm not sure.
<doko> ohh, have to finish that one ... doing now
<doko> rbasak, sure, but keep stuff migratiing, look at update_excuses
<mitya57> doko, and thanks for quick processing of my mir/rm bugs!
<mitya57> Why is pdf2djvu build failing on ppc64el without any log? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pdf2djvu/0.9.2-2ubuntu1/+build/8196903
<mitya57> Tried retrying, without any change. Built on other 5 archs successfully.
<barry> anybody looking at software-properties i386 failure?  if not i will
<cjwatson> mitya57: that would mean it crashed the builder
<cjwatson> though that's an awfully quick BUILDERFAIL ...
<cjwatson> oh, there was a DNS event earlier today, wonder if it was that
<cjwatson> mitya57: right, it's building now, I bet it was the internal DNS outage on that nameserver that was fixed earlier.  I'll clean up the other similar occurrences
<cjwatson> though I'm still seeing even quite recent failures
<rbasak> doko: thanks
<cjwatson> mitya57: definitely still something up, I've raised it with ops
<tumbleweed> doko: \o/
<tumbleweed> I guess my python-cffi autopkgtest fix worked then :)
<doko> tumbleweed, we overrode it
<tumbleweed> aww
 * tumbleweed goes to see if it worked
<tumbleweed> yep
<tumbleweed> excellent
<doko> tumbleweed, mitya57: so the one big exception is ipython (just disabled the tests). not sure if an update to the 3.x or 4.x series would be any better, but the strange thing is they do not mention python 3.5 at all on their site
<doko> barry, fyi, I'm waiting with the 3.4 removal until -proposed is a bit more settled
<cjwatson> ^- I'm not sure that's what I needed to see in a professional channel
<barry> doko: +1
<barry> bdmurray: mind doing a quick review of https://code.launchpad.net/~barry/software-properties/lp1510558/+merge/275854
<deepak_bhagchand> i have to perform a benchmarking exercise in which i have to compare performace of two virtual machines hosting a mail server in one i have to use a full fledge operating system(linux) and in other i have to use a shell down version of the same linux in which i have to remove the modules with functionalities idont require for my application
<rbasak> doko: I would get augeas migrating but it's stuck on a ppc64el build failure with no build log. Known issue I hear?
<doko> rbasak, retried
<rbasak> I tried retrying already (I think), still failed.
<doko> rbasak, it's how you need to push the retry button ;p built.
<rbasak> doko: thanks :)
<rbasak> doko: FYI, the first time I got what looked like a random segfault (I did have a build log). Then on retry I failed to get build logs. In case that matters with other failures.
<rbasak> Technically not a segfault
<rbasak> PASS: test-wctype-h
<rbasak> SKIP: test-wcrtomb-w32-5.sh
<rbasak> PASS: test-verify.sh
<rbasak> ../../build/ac-aux/test-driver: line 95: 21284 Aborted                 (core dumped) "$@" > $log_file 2>&1
<rbasak> FAIL: test-lock
<mitya57> cjwatson, it's fixed now, thanks for the investigation
<cjwatson> mitya57: well
<cjwatson> mitya57: sort of, depending on luck
<cjwatson> rbasak: DNS resolution issue in the bos01 region, IS has been trying to figure it out this afternoon
<cjwatson> rbasak,doko: I'll be retrying all the affected builds in bulk once it's sorted out
<rbasak> OK, thanks.
<slangasek> mitya57: setuptools-scm> done, though the intended process is to get agreement from the team that they will be the bug contact, and get them subscribed, before the package is promoted... (doko)
<doko> mitya57, I agreed =)
<doko> slangasek, I agreed =)
<slangasek> doko: ah, and apparently did the subscription too, so ok ;)
<doko> yes
<doko> directhex, do you plan a mono update for this cycle?
<directhex> doko: yes. have been snarled up by unrelated work stuff, but should have time to get that done in early december with any luck
<doko> ta
<directhex> 4.0 or 4.2 series, depending on QA
<directhex> the packaging work is ~done since i get paid to do it, it's the distro integration which takes time now
<stgraber> infinity: TB meeting?
<TJ-> any network-manager maintainer about? I'm trying to debug bug #1048430 and it seems to depend on an Ubuntu-specific patch adding DBus dnsmasq updates
<ubottu> bug 1048430 in network-manager (Ubuntu) ""dnsmasq not available on the bus"" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1048430
<cjwatson> rbasak,doko,mitya57: all fixed now for real thanks to IS figuring out that one of the two DNS forwarders was busted
<rbasak> Thanks
<cjwatson> http://blog.launchpad.net/ppa/ppas-for-ppc64el may be interesting to people who want to work on ppc64el build failures
<ogra_> cjwatson, erm, did someone just switch the image builders to default to xenial ?
 * ogra_ just had a (what he thought) wily rebuild explode on all arches
<infinity> ogra_: xenial's the devel series, not sure what you expect.
<infinity> ogra_: A wily build would need DIST=wily
<ogra_> infinity, dunno, that image builds only default to it once it actualy can build ... i.e. once the archive is complete enough :)
<infinity> The arvhive is "complete" from day 1...
<infinity> archive, too.
<infinity> It's not like we start from scratch.
<ogra_> well, i have different 404s on the different arches in the logs
<infinity> Log?
<ogra_> oh and we use a PPA
<ogra_> which also doesnt have xenial support yet
<infinity> Right, if your PPA is 404ing, you could mass copy from wily to xenial. :P
<ogra_> well, i could just turn on xenial at all for the PPA, prehaps thats sufficient ...
<cjwatson> ogra_: yeah this is just your PPA
<ogra_> right
<cjwatson> ogra_: you can only "turn it on" by uploading or copying something into it
<ogra_> i just did a xenial upload to it, that should get me the Packages files
<cjwatson> mass copying would normally be sensible, why not do that?
<ogra_> the wily stuff should all be in archive already anyway
<cjwatson> ok, well, either make the Packages files exist, or make your lb config stop using the PPA, one or the other
 * ogra_ would like to only use the PPA for overrides and in case something is missing, directly copy to the archive 
<ogra_> a new release is a good reason to clean up :)
<dobey>  or make it not fail if the Packages file in the PPA doesn't exist :)
<dobey> robustness ftw
<ogra_> i guess that would have to be hacked into apt
<infinity> dobey: I wouldn't call that robust, I'd call it just the opposite.  If you ask it to use a PPA and the PPA is busted, that *should* fail.
<infinity> So, the only correct answers are "don't use the PPA" or "populate the PPA".
<dobey> potato, legume
<teward> with a Conflicts: line in a package, is there such a thing as version not equal to the version provided in the source package?
<teward> (i.e. this:    Conflicts: package (!= ${source:Version}),...
<gQuigs> is anyone already planning a systemd related UDS session?  (I'd like to discuss systemd user sessions, but it doesn't seem to warrant a session to itself)
<sil2100> cyphermox, doko: re: the ocaml transition, looking at xstrp4 it seems that the installability issue would be resolved by us pullin in the camlp4 source package from Debian - which, on the other hand, requires us to first merge the new ocaml version from Debian
<sil2100> cyphermox, doko: so I guess this would have to wait as doko mentioned Debian prepares a new ocaml version anyway or something
<sil2100> Moving forward
<sil2100> cyphermox, doko: anyway, how would you guys prefer me to resolve those issues? Since for most cases I don't have the permissions to merge/sync - is poking here ok?
#ubuntu-devel 2015-10-28
<tjaalton> pitti: hey, does current systemd in wily/xenial restart logind on upgrade? I know it doesn't with 226-4 on debian, wonder if that got backported
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> tjaalton: wily's (and xenial's) systemd does not restart logind on upgrade any more, this got backported
<tjaalton> ok good, so I can merge xserver..
<pitti> tjaalton: right, this was a blocker for enabling logind support in Xserver, as that apparently immediately terminates X when restarting logind
<tjaalton> yep
<pitti> which is quite "meh", but was the pragmatic approach
<tjaalton> I'll just fix the Breaks
<pitti> tjaalton: for the lower systemd version?
<tjaalton> yeah
<pitti> tjaalton: I'll soon merge systemd (in fact I already have it prepared here), then you can drop that Breaks: delta again
<tjaalton> ah
<tjaalton> maybe I'll just wait then :)
<pitti> tjaalton: I was about to upload it today indeed
<tjaalton> though I could test it on wily first..
<pitti> tjaalton: if you need other ubuntu changes, then lowering the breaks: can't hurt;  if it's the difference between sync and merge, just stash it in -proposed, and it'll go in with the merged systemd?
<tjaalton> true
<tjaalton> well I'd like to test it first of course
<pitti> tjaalton: you can use https://launchpad.net/~pitti/+archive/ubuntu/systemd, those systemd xenial packages are very close
<tjaalton> ok, thx
<ricotz> kirkland, hi, regarding byobu, adding this seems wrong "+StartupWMClass=gnome-terminal-server" and breaks the bamf matching afaics
<darkxst> @pilot in
* udevbot_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Wily (15.10) Released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-wily | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: darkxst
<didrocks> hey darkxst, enjoy your flight ;)
<darkxst> didrocks, will do ;)
<Unit193> darkxst: Indeed, have fun.  Though does this mean we get to ping you with sponsorship requests now?
<darkxst> Unit193, you can, if they are in ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-gnome, desktop-extra packagesets
<Unit193> Nope!
<darkxst> Unit193, happy to review other requests, but won't have upload rights for them!
<Unit193> I poked -motu several hours ago about https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/ubuntu/staging/+sourcepub/5608954/+listing-archive-extra, can't submit a MP as the branch is way out of date.
<pitti> Unit193: just attach a debdiff to a sponsoring bug?
<pitti> this is way easier for a sponsor, and (IMHO) still faster/easier for the creator
<darkxst> Unit193, many of the udd branches are broken, don't worry to much about MP's unless there is a vcs-bzr packaging branch in the control file
<Unit193> pitti: Yeah, was just trying to take the easy way out first. :P
<ricotz> pitti, darkxst, hey
<ricotz> pitti, maybe you like to take a look at https://launchpad.net/~ricotz/+archive/ubuntu/staging/+sourcepub/5603831/+listing-archive-extra
<darkxst> ricotz, hey
<dholbach> good morning
<seb128> hey dholbach
<dholbach> hey seb128
<kirkland> ricotz: hmm, well, what's the solution, then?
<kirkland> ricotz: as of wily, unity no longer displays byobu's icon
<kirkland> ricotz: instead, it just shows the gnome-terminal
<kirkland> ricotz: I honestly have no idea what +StartupWMClass=gnome-terminal-server means, but it was suggested in a comment in the bug and it seems to fix the problem for me
<ricotz> kirkland, with this change it seems the other way around now, so always matching byobu
<ricotz> (I am not using unity though)
<kirkland> ricotz: okay, well, I could use some help with this, then
<ricotz> kirkland, so if you actually start gnome-terminal it doesn't show byobu for you
<ricotz> this was meant to be a question ;)
<kirkland> ricotz: yep, that does seem to be the case
<kirkland> ricotz: I'm open to other suggestions
<ricotz> kirkland, you mean the bybou-icon shows up regardless? (so you mean "no" it always show byobu for you too)
<ricotz> using "StartupWMCLass=byobu" while passing "--class=byobu" to gnome-terminal should somehow work
<LocutusOfBorg1> hi, anybody wants to sponsor a pbuilder merge for me?
<pitti> sitter, Riddell: several KDE tests now fail with "FAIL stderr: cc1: warning: command line option â-std=c++11â is valid for C++/ObjC++ but not for C"; e. g. kio, plasma-workspace, kcoreaddons
<pitti> these could be quiesced with "allow-stderr", but presumably this should be fixed more properly?
<pitti> I guess that appeared with new gcc in xenial
<StevenK> pitti: piware.de doesn't seem very pleased with the world.
<pitti> StevenK: indeed, thanks for the ping; apache started
<pitti> I stopped it this morning as I suffered a huge flood of wordpress login attempt DoS/brute force
<StevenK> pitti: It still times out over IPv6, at least.
<pitti> StevenK: WFM (also IPv6)
<StevenK> Right, IPv6 looks to be suffering from conference fun.
<sitter> pitti: forward to kubuntu-devel
<pitti> sitter: danke
<doko> sil2100, I hadn't realized that the ocaml transition already started, so yes, looks like an ocaml merge is required
<LocutusOfBorg1> hi cjwatson do you have any advice for lp: #1510451
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1510451 in Ubuntu "Sync skype4py 1.0.35-1 (multiverse) from Debian unstable (contrib)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1510451
<LocutusOfBorg1> ?
<seb128> dholbach, LocutusOfBorg1, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/skype4py/1.0.35-1 ?
<seb128> dholbach, what issue did you get? It was just in NEW I think, I newed it like 10 minutes ago
<LocutusOfBorg1> <3 thanks
<LocutusOfBorg1> :D
<seb128> yw
<LocutusOfBorg1> I didn't see it in the queue
<LocutusOfBorg1> but I might be wrong
<morphis> pitti, seb128: you did uploads for bluez recently but those are not present in https://code.launchpad.net/~bluetooth/bluez/ubuntu which should be the primary source for the bluez so we can switch to dual landing as soon as we have bluez5 in Touch. Also the idea was to do MPs so we can review those changes in a group as those affecting a lot of different things nowadays
<seb128> morphis, right, I wanted to do the update before wily but you add work staged there which was not suitable for the archive before release
<morphis> ok
<seb128> I think I pinged you on IRC back then to say I was going to do a version update directly
<morphis> seb128: right, there was something ... I remember
<seb128> but yeah, we should use the vcs from now on
<morphis> seb128: was just commenting on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez/+bug/1510570 which brought me to the thought how we can make sure every bluez landing is done this way rather than direct uploads
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1510570 in bluez (Ubuntu) "BLE pairing fail" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<pitti> tjaalton: 227-2ubuntu1 is in -proposed FYI
<pitti> utlemming: hey, how are you?
<pitti> utlemming: could we please have http://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/xenial/? :-)
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: Hola!  We're working on a new, improved way of building cloud images for xenial, but we aren't quite there yet.  What's being blocked by the lack of images?
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: ah, ok
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: mostly that we need them for running tests; for now I wrote a script which builds a xenial image based on the latest wily image by dist-upgrading
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: but developers have to do that too when they run tests locally
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: so it's not OMGurgent, but I wondered if that's just a simple forgotten "update cron job"
<pitti> but it seems it's not
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: Understood. :)
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: out of interest, how  are you going to build them?
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: So for vivid/wily, we produce an ext4 filesystem in Launchpad, and then use kvm instances to make all the various artifacts that you see in cloud-images.ubuntu.com.
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: But with the shift to POWER8, we're shifting to build a lot more stuff in the buildds.
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: (Well, and because running the amount of kvms we were/are running is unsustainable on the hardware we have available to us)
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: interesting, so similar to how we produce desktop images
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: Our entire build tooling assumes that things will happen in a KVM instance, and so there's a decent amount of brain surgery that needs to happen.
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: I believe so; one difference is that we produce images with serials, so we want all of (-disk1.img, .tar.gz, ...) to have exactly the same packages.
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: OOI, did you ever try vmdebootstrap? that's how I build VMs for Debian sid locally, and while it's a bit clumsy it works reasonably well
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: So we use the same buildd process to build all the various artifacts using binary hooks.
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: (this is totally off-topic of course, just some experience exchange)
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: I haven't come across it, no. :)
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: this came up every once in a while, in questions like "how can we build a snappy image (or similar) with one proposed package for testing"
<pitti> and for these scenarios, or local testing, it's much nicer to have something available which you could run on your laptop or a cloud image
<pitti> LP builds are really hard to reproduce
<Odd_Bloke> Yeah, agreed.
<pitti> but maybe LP is actually using something these days which one *can* reproduce, I haven't checked in a while
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: anyway, thanks! I'll keep the "geneate dist-upgrade image every day" approach for a bit
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: Cool, appreciate it. :)
<cjwatson> pitti: LP livefs builds are certainly reproducible (it just uses livecd-rootfs); it would perhaps be worth some effort to make it easier
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, just that now? nice! It used to be this huge cdimage scriptery
<pitti> so we're essentialaly adding a cloud image flavor to livecd-rootfs?
<cjwatson> pitti: livecd-rootfs has had cpc for a while, but Odd_Bloke is extending it, indeed
<cjwatson> pitti: for desktop images, LP builds the squashfs component but cdimage is still involved after that (mainly because of needing to add a package pool etc.)
<cjwatson> pitti: but I believe that cloud images will just be spat straight out by LP
<darkxst> @pilot: out
<udevbot_> Error: "pilot:" is not a valid command.
<darkxst> @pilot out
* udevbot_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Wily (15.10) Released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-wily | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<pitti> cjwatson: ah right, that was it; I thought in the past there was at least another layer of live-build (that's how we built the first -kylin flavors), did that go away now too?
<cjwatson> pitti: Kylin was always kind of weird
<cjwatson> pitti: I think it was done out of band for a while.  There was also an even weirder thing with the Ubuntu Chinese Edition before it was taken over by Kylin
<darkxst> cjwatson, it only gets worse when you see what the unofficial spins do!
<cjwatson> Yeah
<cjwatson> pitti: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/ubuntu-cdimage/mainline/view/head:/lib/cdimage/build.py#L356 (bring scuba gear)
<tjaalton> pitti: excellent, thanks
<pitti> darkxst: congrats and thanks for your first pilot shift!
<dholbach> darkxst, you're a hero!
<dholbach> thanks a lot! :-D
<darkxst> dholbach, pitti, np, ended up being a busy evening all up ;)
<tseliot> doko: hi, do you know what release of glibc 16.04 is going to ship with?
<doko> tseliot, >= 2.21
<tseliot> doko: ok, thanks
<rbasak> "squid3" is moving to "squid" and I need to adapt the Ubuntu delta for conffiles we added.
<rbasak> I see many dpkg-maintscript-helpers calls (it uses cdbs) which I mostly understand fine.
<rbasak> But how is it handling the conffiles being moved from one package to another?
<rbasak> It seems to just duplicate the dpkg-maintscript-helper calls in both the squid package and the now transitional squid3 package.
<rbasak> Is this the right way to do it and what's the mechanism involved? I'd like to understand so as not to botch this merge.
<pitti> rbasak: the package it moves to needs a .maintscripts with "mv_conffile", see  line 2 (press h for help or q to quit)
<pitti> erk
<pitti> rbasak: see "dpkg-maintscript-helper(1)"
<rbasak> pitti: yeah, so it's calling that. I get that part.
<pitti> rbasak: IIRC the old packge doesn't need any magic
<rbasak> Hmm. The old package has all the same magic.
<pitti> that'll generate a preinst to remove an unmodified file, and postinst to handle a modified one
<rbasak> Unless I've botched something.
<pitti> rbasak: that seems redundant; the transitional package should just stop shipping the conffiles
<infinity> mv_conffile doesn't move between packages, it just handles renames.
<pitti> oh, right
<pitti> erk, it's that time again
<rbasak> Yeah the Debian maintainer has definitely put dpkg-maintscript-helper mv_conffile (and rm_conffile) calls in both the squid and squid3 packages.
<pitti> like 20 years, and indeed there's *still* no way to move a conffile
<infinity> dpkg itself will take over conffiles with a Replaces *if* the conffile has the same path.
<rbasak> squid does have Replaces: squid3
<infinity> But are the conffiles in a new location?
<infinity> I'm assuming yes.
<rbasak> Yes
<rbasak> Moving from /etc/squid3 to /etc/squid
<infinity> Right, so the replaces won't help you there of course (it helps for other bits, but not for files that have moved).
<pitti> rbasak: ah, then you need some preinst script to mv them manually if modified, or rm them if unmodified
<rbasak> I also need to take care of things like /etc/apparmor/usr.bin.squid3 or whatever and /etc/init/squid3 that we were adding in a delta.
<rbasak> infinity: hmm. So does that mean the package is broken in Debian?
<infinity> Probably.
<infinity> But for subtle values of "broken".
<rbasak> Any suggestions?
<infinity> Are the squid mv_conffile calls in preinst calling with the "package" argument and, if so, is it pretending to be "squid3"?
<infinity> Cause that might work.
<rbasak> Yes, it's doing that.
<infinity> ie: if squid's preinst moves squid*3*'s conffiles, then replaces them.
<rbasak> In both squid... and squid3... maintainer sscripts
<infinity> That might actually function.
<infinity> Because Replaces happens after preinst.
<infinity> preinst -> unpack (replaces) -> postinst
<infinity> Basically.
<infinity> So, if you can get squid3's conffiles to all move to the new location before squid unpacks, then squid will take them over.
<rbasak> But that suggests that squid3.preinst dpkg-mainscript calls aren't needed, and it's still doing that?
<infinity> May still lead to a prompt or two you didn't want, but you can experiment with that.
<infinity> Yeah, I see no reason squid3 needs any of the magic at all.
<rbasak> Will it cause any harm?
<infinity> Unless he was trying to work around nondeterministic unpack order.
<rbasak> Because I'm tempted to follow Debian's pattern exactly for the Ubuntu delta bits here.
<rbasak> Now that you've explained the mechanism and provided you think that's OK :)
<infinity> I'm not sure what happens with two identical mv_conffile calls.  I'd like to think the second is a no-op.
<infinity> If the Debian packages were actually tested, it probably is. :P
<infinity> A more elegant way to force the ordering would probably have been to make squid3 Pre-Depends on squid.
 * rbasak looks
<infinity> So you guarantee the mv_conffile from squid completes and the conffiles are taken over before squid3 is upgraded and its files removed.
<rbasak> Yes, it does.
<rbasak> Package: squid3
<rbasak> Pre-Depends: squid (>= ${source:Version})
<infinity> Oh.  Then the squid3 Mv_conffile stuff is completey redundant.
<infinity> I feel like that's left over from debugging ordering problems, probably.
<rbasak> OK
<rbasak> If you think it's harmless then I think I'm best following the pattern though.
<rbasak> Less confusing for future merges.
<infinity> Because with a pre-depends, squid will preinst/unpack/replaces/postinst all before squid3 even preinsts.
<infinity> So, squid3's maint scripts become completely useless at that point, as you've already moved everything around.
<rbasak> Hmm.
<infinity> I think it really should be fixed in Debian to avoid the redundancy, IMO.
<rbasak> There are also rm_conffiles
<rbasak> I guess that wants to be in squid3 but not squid?
<rbasak> Both are in both.
<infinity> squid3 should just be a completely empty package with no maintainer scripts, and all this magic should be in squid.  The pre-dep pretty much requires that anyway.
<infinity> s/requires/assumes/ anyway.
<rbasak> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=801564 looks like fun
<ubottu> Debian bug 801564 in squid "squid: prompting due to modified conffiles which were not modified by the user: /etc/squid/squid.conf" [Serious,Open]
<infinity> rbasak: That one's about squid 2.7 -> squid 3.5, we don't have that issue.  Maybe.  I hope.
<infinity> rbasak: Since our squid is squid3.
<rbasak> Yeah I think Precise is on 3, so we don't have to worry about 2.7.
<henrix> pitti: looks like we had a timeout for armhf in one of the linux-meta-lts-utopic autopkgtest tests.  would it be possible to re-run it?
<henrix> pitti: here's the link for the test log: https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-trusty/trusty/armhf/v/v4l2loopback/20151027_025222@/log.gz
<henrix> pitti: and the command to re-run it: run-autopkgtest -s trusty -a armhf --trigger linux-meta-lts-utopic/3.16.0.52.43 v4l2loopback
<pitti> henrix: done
<henrix> pitti: awesome, thanks!
<pitti> henrix: no worries! I think there are some more MISSes on http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/adt-matrix/ though, I'll check
<pitti> I retried a bunch of them this morning after fixing kernel installation even harder
<pitti> like the four MISSes on http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/adt-matrix/precise-linux-meta.html
<pitti> apw: ^ are these still current? we do have runs for those
<pitti> e. g. https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-precise/precise/armhf/o/openvswitch/20151028_101407@/log.gz for the openvswitch one
<henrix> pitti: heh, yeah.  i just started looking a few minutes ago and that one caught my attention as it was REGR
<apw> pitti, let me check i didnt' disable it
<apw> pitti, yeah its 2 hours old, bah
<apw> pitti, i stopped it to prevent it eating its own cache, and ... failed
<apw> pitti, henrix, ok that looks better
<pitti> apw: the three MISSes on http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/adt-matrix/xenial-linux-meta-raspi2.html have results too
<pitti> apw: queued http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/adt-matrix/xenial-linux-meta.cmds now, but without ppc64
<hallyn> hm, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qemu/1:2.4+dfsg-4ubuntu1/+build/8200106    build on ppc64el fails, but seems to do so mysteriously.  the build log just says "Session terminated, terminating shell... ...terminated."
<pitti> hm, I already retried that two times
<apw> pitti, looking ...
<cjwatson> hallyn: that's a hang after inactivity
<cjwatson> that is, it was inactive for 2.5 hours so was autokilled
<hallyn> hm.   Build killed with signal TERM after 150 minutes of inactivity
<cjwatson> do you start a test suite around there perhaps?
<hallyn> but that's suspicious,
<cjwatson> which might not autoflush its logs
<hallyn> bc the builder says the build time was 2'44"
<cjwatson> right, so it probably spent 14 minutes getting up to that point and then hung
<hallyn> guess a porter is my best bet
<cjwatson> I think there may not be a porter box you can use at the moment, due to the power8 switch
<apw> pitti,
<apw> I: [Wed Oct 28 14:20:09 2015] - Fetched test result for acpi-call/1.1.0-2/armhf 20151028_102038@: pass (kernel linux-meta-raspi2 4.2.0-1013.19)
<apw> I: [Wed Oct 28 14:20:09 2015] - Fetched test result for asic0x/1.0.1-1/armhf 20151028_101929@: fail (kernel UNKNOWN 4.2.0-1013.19)
<apw> pitti, so thats rather odd, i will trying and figure out why one is matched and the other not
<hallyn> d'oh
<cjwatson> hallyn: you can experiment in a PPA: http://blog.launchpad.net/ppa/ppas-for-ppc64el
<cjwatson> crank up debugging around there or something
<pitti> apw: oh - E: Failed to fetch http://ftpmaster.internal/ubuntu/pool/main/i/isl/libisl13_0.14-2_armhf.deb  Temporary failure resolving 'ftpmaster.internal'
<pitti> apw: time for another try I guess
<apw> pitti, oh yeah its one of your "tempfail" reported in the test, but not detected as tmpfail but the greater adt thing
<apw> pitti, and a tricky one to detect of course
<cjwatson> hallyn: (and you can watch the build log and cancel after the hang, so you won't actually have to wait nearly three hours for each iteration)
<pitti> apw: requeued
<pitti> apw: yeah, that woudl ideally count as "tmpfail" indeed
<hallyn> cjwatson: thx.  looks like the next step was supposed to be running 'dtc -o qemu-build/pc-bios/bamboo.dtb pc-bios/bamboo.dts
<cjwatson> hallyn: I wonder if this is your first build for power8
<hallyn> cjwatson: nope, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qemu/1:2.3+dfsg-5ubuntu9
<cjwatson> hallyn: the wily toolchain doesn't default to power8
<hallyn> oh
<cjwatson> hallyn: and that was on the old builders too, though I suspect the power8 switch is more relevant
<hallyn> pitti: stgraber; should we have a uos session on cgroup boot time configuration (for ppl looking for libcgroup replacement), or do we just accept "use systemd for it, anything it can't do you can't do yet" as the long-term answer?
<hallyn> seems like that *will8 be the long-term answer anyway...
<hallyn> short-term ppl seem to want more
<jgdx> larsu, I'm not getting changed events from gsettings-qt, and I'm wondering why. Looking at this [1], it seems something related to it has recently changed. Maybe you can help me out? [1] https://code.launchpad.net/~lukas-kde/gsettings-qt/queued-processing/+merge/259883
<stgraber> hallyn: I don't expect any of us to have time to work on new cgroup features so not sure it's worth making plans
<stgraber> hallyn: so yeah, use systemd, if that doesn't do it, you can configure things yourself, through cgroupfs or using cgmanager
<pitti> right, that ^ seems to be the status quo
<pitti> it seems there are still some bugs with that, stgraber found that for some services like lxcfs systemd seems to put those into all controllers
<pitti> but well, these are bugs
<pitti> hallyn: but if you have something that we should talk about, sure!
<hallyn> pitti: no i don't care to have a session if it's not needed - thx!
<hallyn> pitti: we should however talk about shifting the cgroup-login functionality to libpam-cgm
<hallyn> (not in uos, just here :)
<hallyn> stgraber: probably cares more than you do,
<hallyn> i assume you (pitti) are just happy to have that patch out of systemd :)
<pitti> hallyn: ah, ye olde cpu hotplug bug
<hallyn> workaround
<pitti> hallyn: heh, yes; although AFAIUI there will still be some bit left?
<pitti> it tends to subtly break every now and then, although we now have an autopkgtest for it
<stgraber> hallyn: what happens if you have both the patched systemd and libpam-cgm installed?
<pitti> but that of course still doesn't fix the cpu hotplug issue
<hallyn> stgraber: systemd still creates the directories, but you end up in the libpam-cgm cgroups.  (it's what i have on my laptop)
<hallyn> so i'm in /user/serge/1 for most cgroups except 1:name=systemd:/user.slice/user-1000.slice/session-c4.scope
<stgraber> hallyn: ok, good. So we can have LXC depend on libpam-cgm, promote it to main (source is already in main so no MIR required, the package was in universe just because it was unused), then once that's done we can drop the patch from systemd.
<stgraber> hallyn: did you get someone from security to look at libpam-cgm?
<hallyn> good q.  i can't recall whether sarnold looked at it or not
<hallyn> (i've bugged him on so many...)
<doko> mitya57, https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=802427  isn't 3.5 not yet supported?
<ubottu> Debian bug 802427 in python3.5-doc ""async" and "await" keywords are not highlighted as such" [Minor,Open]
<stgraber> hallyn: so I'd say, re-check with sarnold that libpam-cgm looks sane, then I'll make LXC recommend it and soon after that we can drop the patch from systemd, sounds good?
<hallyn> sounds good to me.  sarnold: please ping me when you're in
<larsu> jgdx: that was an issue with qt's event dispatching which should be fixed now
<larsu> jgdx: do you see the change events in `gsettings monitor`?
<jgdx> larsu, yes. And I just commented after doing a bisect.
<larsu> jgdx: it works without that patch?!
<jgdx> larsu, r71 works fine, yeah
<larsu> jgdx: neat :) how can I reproduce?
<jgdx> larsu, let me make a couple of steps for you.
<jgdx> larsu, do you have System Settings installed?
<jgdx> ubuntu-system-settings that is
<larsu> yes
<larsu> I'd prefer a small test program if you have that
<jgdx> larsu, sure
<larsu> jgdx: only if it's not to much effort though of course :)
<jgdx> larsu, nah, it'd be good to isolate completely to make sure I'm not blaming gsettingsqt needlessly.
<larsu> ya, thanks
<jgdx> larsu, okay, here http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/12990612/
<jgdx> larsu, if your idle-timeout was 42, you're outta luck
<jgdx> larsu, all you do now is switch between r71 and r72 and observe the difference in behaviour.
<jgdx> larsu, (i.e. on r71 âChanged eventsâ increases on each change, where on r72 it remains 0)
<larsu> jgdx: indeed. cool stuff
<larsu> jgdx: that's because it doesn't change ...
<larsu> it's on 42
<larsu> changing it to 42 doesn't actually change it
<larsu> so you don't get the event
<larsu> don't know why that commit should change this behavior though
<jgdx> larsu, maybe the second time, but if you open that qml when idle-timeout is 600 (like on my system), it changes from 600 to 42. On 71 that emits changed, on 72 it doesnt.
<jgdx> Sorry, I should've used random values.
<jgdx> so when both buttons are 42, of course that's not going to emit anything
<larsu> jgdx: this works for me
<larsu> if it's on 600 and I change it to 42, I get the changed event
<jgdx> larsu, where, on the counter or in gsettings-monitor?
<larsu> jgdx: both
<jgdx> hm, I don't when on gsettings-qt 0.1+15.04.20150810-0ubuntu1
<larsu> I have a version from August
<larsu> which *should* include that fix from June... but apparently it doesn't
<larsu> is that version only in xenial?
 * larsu should upgrade
<jgdx> i'm on vivid+overlay
<jgdx> can't you just build r72 from source?
<larsu> yes, doing that right now
<larsu> I wonder why this is not in vivid - the fix is from ages ago
<jgdx> hasn't vivid frozen over ages ago? :p
<larsu> heh, not that long ago ;)
<jgdx> larsu, what's the eta on your r72 build?
<larsu> already playing with QML2_IMPORT_PATH
<larsu> jgdx: ok I can reproduce
<jgdx> larsu, thanks, glad to hear it
<larsu> I get the change event when changing it from outside the program, but not when clicking the button
<jgdx> that's what i see too
<larsu> jgdx: bah, setting QML2_IMPORT_PATH has no effect
<larsu> any idea how I can make it load this module without installing it?
<jgdx> larsu, .local/lib install and ldconfig? dunno
<larsu> uninstalling the system's version makes it work :D
<larsu> jgdx: got it.
<larsu> ok this is kind of bad
<larsu> and not easily fixable
<jgdx> :s
<larsu> the problem is that the qqmlpropertymap gets set from qml, so the next time settingChanged() is called, it doesn't actually emit the signal because it already has the same value
<larsu> and we need that to avoid endless loops
<larsu> and apparently back when we used a direct connection, the value wasn't set yet
<larsu> jgdx: ok I have a fix, but it breaks the tests - they assume that values are changed immediately
<larsu> all of this because of that one stupid qt bug
<larsu> that nobody seems to want to fix :/
<jgdx> larsu, ugh.. let me know when you have a branch, I can confirm the fix in uss as well.
<larsu> jgdx: might not make it before tomorrow. could you please file a bug?
<jgdx> larsu, https://launchpad.net/bugs/1503693
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1503693 in Canonical System Image "Dim timeout gsetting key not set anymore" [High,Confirmed]
<larsu> thanks
<larsu> jgdx: is there a way to let a qml test wait until some change signals came in?
<jgdx> larsu, signalspy?
<jgdx> larsu, but the event loop need to run.
<larsu> jgdx: it always runs in qml, doesn't it?
<jgdx> larsu, in that case, signalspy is the only thing you need
<larsu> cool thanks
<sil2100> cjwatson, doko, cyphermox: pushed a few no-change rebuilds, the prooftree installability problem will be fixed once the new no-change rebuild of coq will finish
<cyphermox> sil2100: ok
<cyphermox> need sponsoring?
<sarnold> hallyn, good morning. :) I can't recall if I've looked at libpam-cgm either. I know I had a tab open for it for a while but thought I heard that it'd been supplanted by systemd integration work instead
<hallyn> nope , it's still the plan
<hallyn> just wsn't in plan for 15.10
<tsukasa_> i think http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/m/mysql-5.6/mysql-5.6_5.6.27-0ubuntu0.14.04.1/changelog the last commit here is causing this problem for me: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/SBk7YQWRrQAH7NaRJikD/
<sil2100> cyphermox: no no, so far all packages I poked were universe ones - not that I looked for universe ones, just going through the list as is
<tsukasa_> not entirely sure. thoughts? the date of the commit and the problem is matching up
<TJ-> tsukasa_: did you see my recommendation in #ubuntu just now?
<cyphermox> sil2100: ack
<sarnold> hallyn: aha, thanks :)
<hjd> I've found a package (https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/fop) which I believe can be synced since the Ubuntu delta is now included in the Debian package as well. However, I noticed this package is in main and I skimmed the list of new dependencies and at least one of them is in universe so it won't build out of the box on Ubuntu. Is that a concern or should it be synced regardless and then we can figure out what we do about the dependencies.
<hjd> (It's not clear to me who makes the decisions on which packages should go through the mir process and which should be worked around)
<sil2100> cyphermox, doko, cjwatson: so, the reverse-deps of coq I will rebuild and fix once all coq binaries are built
<sil2100> Since those need no-change rebuilds mostly, but I can't do it earlier
<sil2100> A few archs still building
<slangasek> infinity, pitti, mdeslaur: so I'm trying to work on my TB action item to document the exceptions for juju, maas, etc.  and I'm having a very hard time *locating* the maas exception that was approved - either in IRC meeting logs or in the mailing list.  Do any of you remember when/where this happened, and what was approved?
<sarnold> if it helps, the emails I have related to that are from 27 feb 2015 through 2 mar 2015
<slangasek> sarnold: oh, is this somewhere in the "please demote maas 1.2" thread?
<sarnold> slangasek: yeah, that's the thread, but I don't have any TB-related stuff, just their mentions that they were going to talk to TB at the time
 * mdeslaur is still looking
<mdeslaur> slangasek: last we discussed, we were waiting for a new proposal from them: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/03/17/%23ubuntu-meeting-2.html
<slangasek> mdeslaur: so... we don't actually have a maas exception on the books?
<mdeslaur> slangasek: that would be my understanding, yes
<slangasek> that's interesting; how did I take an action item to document it in that case :)
<slangasek> fwiw what sent me looking is that there is a maas SRU in the queue
<mdeslaur> documenting that there isn't any is easy :)
<slangasek> lamont, roaksoax: ^^
<pmcgowan> slangasek, got upgrade aborted goign to wily, any advice?
<slangasek> lamont, roaksoax: we need to have an actual signed-off test plan for the stable updates in order to let this maas 1.8.3 SRU in; it seems no one has reported regressions against maas 1.7 in trusty, but it also appears the SRU team didn't follow the procedure because we all gaslighted ourselves into believing there was a SRE approval in place
<slangasek> lamont, roaksoax: ("It has been QAed in a CI lab" is not sufficient detail here)
<slangasek> pmcgowan: aborted how / with what exact error message?
<pmcgowan> slangasek, I may have gotten it to finish
<pmcgowan> it just said upgrade aborted, unstable blah blah
<pmcgowan> I reran the upgrader and it said it finished
<pmcgowan> after an autoremove
<pmcgowan> slangasek, anything else I should check before reboot?
<slangasek> pmcgowan: if it succeeded the second time, then not that I can see
<pmcgowan> ok
<sil2100> slangasek, cjwatson: I'm working on the ocaml transition and I'm basically waiting for the coq builds to finish before continuuing - I see the arm64 build is still scheduled for build in 2 hours, is there any chance we could get the build score bumped?
<sil2100> Asking since I suppose there's other important stuff building as well
<slangasek> sil2100: there's always something that needs building, but as you're blocked I've bumped the score
<slangasek> start in 1 minute
<roaksoax> 15:34 < mdeslaur> slangasek: last we discussed, we were waiting for a new proposal from them: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2015/03/17/%23ubuntu-meeting-2.html -> the proposal mentioned here as to what infinity was mentionning, was the request of demotion of MAAS 1.2 from Precise, not the Standing SRU Exception for trusty
<roaksoax> mdeslaur: ^^
<roaksoax> slangasek: ^^
<slangasek> roaksoax: ok, so I find nothing in the history of TB discussions that shows that a MAAS standing SRU exception has ever been granted
<roaksoax> i discussed what maintenance of 1.2 extended to for Precise, and understood what it meant, and dropped the request for demotion on: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2015-March/002089.html
<slangasek> the discussions on this from last September did not end with anyone from the TB indicating approval of an SRE
<roaksoax> slangasek: so, what I recall having discussed with infinity was that once 1.7 was out the SRE was gonna be granted
<roaksoax> slangasek: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/maas/+bug/1460737/comments/4
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1460737 in maas (Ubuntu Utopic) "[SRU] MAAS 1.7.6" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<slangasek> roaksoax: thanks for the reference; sounds like we need to follow up with infinity then
<roaksoax> slangasek: and as per the conversation I had with him at the time the SRU for 1.7 was granted, it was that the SRE will be approved, we just needed to address all the issues and so on
<roaksoax> slangasek: i'll further improve the SRU request with the testing done and so on
<roaksoax> slangasek: thanks for looking at it though
<sil2100> slangasek: thanks! It seems coq takes ages to build though, so not sure if I'll be able to do anything more today
<sarnold> wow, ~30 minutes on amd64, 3.5 hours on arm64..
<teward> sarnold: not unusual from what I've seen ;)
<sarnold> teward: I've never really paid attention before
<teward> sarnold: i care usually because nginx :)
<teward> i've noticed that arm builds always take longer, regardless of specific arch (armel, armhf, or arm64)
<doko> sil2100, slangasek: you need to work in parallel on transitions. one package per day for a transition isn't exiting
<sil2100> doko: yeah, will try to work on it more in the next days, since this week I had multiple other things to work on as well
#ubuntu-devel 2015-10-29
<mwhudson> is there some deep reason why gcc-multilib and the cross compiler packages can't be coinstalled?
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> good morning
<zyga> good morning
<sladen> guten morgen
<Trevinho> doko: unity doesn't link on arm64 due to a segfault... I've no clue how to debug thatÃ¹ https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/landing-011/+build/8215078
<doko> Trevinho, loking
<Trevinho> doko: thanks
<Trevinho> doko: got anything?
<doko> Trevinho, will you ask every 30min?
<Trevinho> doko: I just asked once, I didn't want to bother you...
<doko> Trevinho, does the package build on wily?
<doko> Trevinho, I can't reproduce this. already fails earlier with http://paste.ubuntu.com/12998753/
<doko> so please fix this, then I can look again
<sitter> balloons: ping. about the kubuntu ci session. Id' be entirely fine if that slot were to be halved... just in case another session gets proposed ;). At akademy shadeslayer and I did a talk about our various CI systems and that fit nicely in a 30 minute slot
<pitti> cjwatson, wgrant: OOI, is it planned to allow github issues as upstream bug URLs in LP?
<pitti> cjwatson: do you plan to do https://merges.ubuntu.com/f/finish-install/, or want me to steal it?
<pitti> cjwatson: it's important for https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=802187
<ubottu> Debian bug 802187 in finish-install "debian-installer: On first boot after install init hangs due to missing symlink "/etc/mtab to /proc/self/mounts"" [Serious,Fixed]
<rbasak> pitti: no plans for a migration path for the mtab symlink?
<pitti> rbasak: we already have that
<rbasak> Oh, OK>
<pitti> rbasak: but we should stop writing /etc/mtab in installers as a file, and set it up correctly right away
<pitti> rbasak: it's turned into a symlink on every boot
<pitti> this is to find the installer bugs
<pitti> rbasak: I just mailed u-devel@ with some explanation
<rbasak> Oh sorry. I was responding to the email but missed your mention of migration.
<Trevinho> doko: in wily it worked...
<Trevinho> doko: that's already fixed..
<Trevinho> You need the 7.4 bump branch
<Trevinho> doko: https://code.launchpad.net/~unity-team/unity/unity-7.4.0-bump
<doko> looking
<doko> Trevinho, still fails. I can't install dependencies on the porter box, which are not in the archive. will have to wait until I can setup one, so tomorrow
<cjwatson> pitti: github linking is on our backlog though it's not trivial
<cjwatson> pitti: I can do finish-install, sure
<cjwatson> ogra_: is it OK if I upload your livecd-rootfs changes?
<ogra_> cjwatson, perfectly fine ...
<Trevinho> doko: Mh ok... If you want, all the packages needed are in silo 11 (ppa)
<cjwatson> thanks
<Trevinho> You can use those deb sources for  building it
<cjwatson> pitti: done
<pitti> cjwatson: oh, that was fast, thanks!
<sil2100> cjwatson: hey! Could we request an LP translation export for ubuntu-rtm/15.04? It's usually taking around 5 minutes so it shouldn't eat up much resources I suppose
<cjwatson> sil2100: requested
<sil2100> cjwatson: thank you!
<cjwatson> sil2100: (see #webops)
<Chir0n> hi there! keyserver.ubuntu.com seems to be down, known fact?
<Chir0n> (not sure what a good channel is to ask about it)
<cjwatson> Chir0n: I see it on our internal outage channel so our sysadmins know about it
<cjwatson> via nagios
<Chir0n> cool, thanks!
<tkamppeter> cjwatson, hi
<cjwatson> tkamppeter: hi, what's up?
<seb128> cjwatson, unping, I'm on it, Till wants pysmbc removed from the sync blacklist
<cjwatson> ok
<tkamppeter> cjwatson, I want to have our python-smbc replaced by Debian's pysmbc. I do not see any reason why we are going separate here. What I need from you for that is to remove pysmbc from http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/sync-blacklist.txt.
<tkamppeter> cjwatson, seems that seb128 did it already, but please check whether he did it correctly.
<seb128> well I edited the vcs
<seb128> unsure when the cron job is running
<cjwatson> sil2100: should be done for you now
<cjwatson> seb128: it's every five minutes
<sil2100> \o/ thanks!
<tkamppeter> seb128, now it worked. I have synced now.
<seb128> cjwatson, thanks
<tkamppeter> cjwatson, seb128, thanks.
<Chir0n> looks like keyserver is back!
<Chir0n> someone tripped over a cable? :)
<cjwatson> unlikely
<cjwatson> something to do with a package upgrade but I don't know exactly what
<slangasek> cyphermox, cjwatson: it's possible for grub to chainload to another instance of grub.efi, right?  if so what's the syntax?
<slangasek> cyphermox, cjwatson: bug #1510120; PXE-booted GRUB is trying to find kernels on LVM, and I'd prefer that we chainload to the GRUB on disk rather than adding a pile of disk modules to grubnetx64.efi.signed if we can
<ubottu> bug 1510120 in MAAS "UEFI deployment broken in MAAS 1.9" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1510120
<cjwatson> slangasek: chainloader <filename>
<cjwatson> slangasek: but I don't see how that would work with secure boot
<blake_r> cjwatson: the grub on disk should be signed as well
<slangasek> cjwatson: oh?  if both files are signed, it still won't work?
<cjwatson> blake_r,slangasek: well that would be great if chainloader had any sig verification support
<slangasek> oh, well then
<slangasek> is that why we are failing to chainload Windows?
<cjwatson> hm
<cjwatson> and yet we put chainloader in the signed image
<cjwatson> um, I'm too far out of context on this, you might have to try it
<slangasek> I thought chainloader in a UEFI context would just tell UEFI "execute this", and the "execute this" API does the signature checking
 * cyphermox looks
<slangasek> blake_r: so yes, since you've already found the ESP you can try chainloader .../shimx64.efi instead of loading the config
<blake_r> slangasek: would I chainload the shim or grub? as the shim was already loaded over network
<sil2100> pitti: hey! Could you manually run langpack-o-matic on ubuntu-rtm/15.04 for us? :)
<slangasek> blake_r: shim.  a chainload goes back to the firmware (I believe; and if it doesn't it needs to), which means the firmware itself needs to be able to verify the sig
<blake_r> slangasek: okay  I will try it
<cjwatson> slangasek: if that is so then all should be well
<cyphermox> looks to me like it calls LoadImage, which should return a SECURITY_VIOLATION if the signature is bad
 * slangasek nods
<blake_r> slangasek: worked
<blake_r> slangasek: thanks, easy fix
<slangasek> blake_r: hurray
<ogra_> mdeslaur, wow, i'm surprised you also took MODE="0666" for the steam fix ... instead of just using uaccess everywhere
<mdeslaur> hrm, I guess I could have done that...but I'm not sure what process actually updates the firmware in those controllers
 * ogra_ finds 0666 always a little itchy 
<ogra_> but yeah, if the frimware updater runs as different user etc ...
 * mdeslaur nods
<dobey> fw updater?
<pitti> sil2100: uh, did the cronjob not run?
<pitti> sil2100: https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/stable-phone-overlay has packages from Tuesday, so it did run; so you need the export from today?
<pitti> sil2100: running
<sil2100> pitti: thanks! It ran, yes, but we requested another export today to get the latest stuff after feature freeze
<sil2100> doko, cyphermox, slangasek: pushed a batch of new rebuilds for the ocaml transition - some are unresolvable for now, like xstrp4 (I mentioned that yesterday) and now also lablgtk-extras seems to be requiring the new camlp4 and ocaml from Debian to build properly
<sil2100> Give me a sign when we could merge those from Debian
<sil2100> There also seems to be a number of false positives on the transition page, at least the uninstallabilities are not reproducible on my chroots
<slangasek> sil2100: I don't understand - give you a sign when?  why wouldn't they get merged now?
<slangasek> (I haven't been looking at ocaml at all, I have no context here)
<sil2100> slangasek: I poked doko earlier about that and he mentioned we should wait with that as Debian is peraring a new ocaml version anyway
<sil2100> But I'm worried we'll have to rebuild once again when that happens
<slangasek> sil2100: does the update from ocaml 4.01.0 to 4.02.3 require rebuilds?
<doko> slangasek, sil2100: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=789133   it's already ongoing
<ubottu> Debian bug 789133 in release.debian.org "transition: ocaml 4.02.3" [Normal,Open]
<slangasek> ok
<sil2100> I suppose it will, as the provides package would change
<slangasek> sil2100: so that's the version already in unstable; if that's the version needed for unblocking parts of the transition you're looking at, we should merge that asap so we're doing 1 transition instead of 2
<sil2100> And some packages already require ocaml 4.02.3 to work and build
<slangasek> right.  as long as jumping directly to 4.02.3 doesn't introduce problems because of versioned build-dep loops, we should jump straight to that
<pitti> sil2100: done, in the ppa
 * pitti waves good night
<Saviq> oh, do-release-upgrade to xenial did not snapshot my btrfs root, isn't that what happened on btrfs usually?
<hallyn> so, qemu failed to build in power8;  while i was still trying elsewhere to figure out why, a rebuild seems to have been triggered and it passed.  What would cause an automatic rebuild like that?
<sil2100> slangasek: ok, I'll prepare a merge, I'll need a sponsor once I'm done :)
<slangasek> sil2100: good news I'm piloting tomorrow
<sil2100> Excellent
<cjwatson> hallyn: nothing automatic, but quite a few people have access to retry builds manually
<sil2100> slangasek: if anything, I filled in #1511517 - will wait with further ocaml transitioning for now until this is landed, switching back to some touch work for the rest of today
<sil2100> LP: #1511517 of course
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1511517 in ocaml (Ubuntu) "Please merge ocaml 4.02.3-5 (main) from Debian unstable" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511517
<sil2100> slangasek: I hope I did the merge right
<sil2100> pitti: thanks! And good night to you too :)
<slangasek> sil2100: ocaml uploaded
<sil2100> slangasek: \o/ thanks!
<slangasek> man, why does gnome-pkg-tools still Recommend svn-buildpackage in Debian
#ubuntu-devel 2015-10-30
<tsimonq2> where could I find all of the UDS sessions after this upcoming one? YouTube?
<hallyn> ok, if i switch vmbuilder from Architecture:all to :any, that should be ok?  (it builds fine on power8)
<hallyn> hm, no
<hallyn> maybe i shouldn't have to,
<tsimonq2> and why do some package updates go to wily first instead of xenial?
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: that doesn't sound right, packages would go to xenial now, wily is released. the usual process is that stable updates should land in the development release before they are uploaded to wily.
<tsimonq2> well obviously not
<tsimonq2> -16 is in xenial-proposed
<tsimonq2> -17 is in wily-proposed
<tsimonq2> (kernel)
<tsimonq2> Why?
<tsimonq2> cyphermox: or is that irregular?
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: I suppose they're fixing bugs in wily and there's a good reason why it didn't land in xenial first
<tsimonq2> cyphermox: but usually that doesn't happen?
<cyphermox> (possibly because they're in the process of preparing a new shiny other kernel for xenial)
<cyphermox> no, usually stuff lands in xenial first, on the premise that stuff should be tested in the devel release before the fix is send to wily-proposed.
<tsimonq2> cyphermox: do you know if upstream packages(Debian) go to xenial, and if so, what repo? main? universe?
<tsimonq2> cyphermox: or is that conditional
<tsimonq2> cyphermox: and if so how is that controlled
<infinity> tsimonq2: The kernel is a unique snowflake.  Once it's ready to move from wily-proposed to wily-updates, I'll copy it to xenial as well.
<infinity> (Until 4.3.0 lands in xenial)
<tsimonq2> infinity: got it :)
<tsimonq2> infinity: can YOU answer that question that I just asked him?
<infinity> You could probably answer it yourself with some Googling.
<infinity> But we autosync from Debian until Debian Import Freeze (in a few months).
<tsimonq2> infinity: but you would give me the answer I want, as I want it
<tsimonq2> infinity: but would it go to main?
<infinity> Not if it's not already in main.
<tsimonq2> infinity: but how would I get it from Debian into main instead of universe?
<tsimonq2> (would do it in the future, just curious)
<infinity> You'd file a Main Inclusion Request and make a case for why you think we should support it.
<tsimonq2> and where's that>
<tsimonq2> and what are the requirements for packages in main?
<infinity> Seriously, Google a bit dude.  Just a little.
 * infinity goes back to his vacation.
<tsimonq2> sorry
 * ScottK read that as vaccination for a moment.
<tsimonq2> XD
<tjaalton> infinity: btw, added a debdiff for vivid on the initramfs-tools bug which adds kernel/ubuntu/i915 modules to copy, but wonder if I should just upload?
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> good morning
<seb128> hey dholbach
<dholbach> hey seb128
<seb128> wgrant, hey, did you have any chance to debug the evolution/e-d-s translation issue on launchpad?
<LocutusOfBorg1> hi folks, does freenode have an ubuntu channel for xserver folks?
<LocutusOfBorg1> wrt #1511649
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg1, there was #ubuntu-x, unsure if it's still active, but you can also try to grab tjaalton or robert_ancell
<tjaalton> #ubuntu-x is still there
<tjaalton> LocutusOfBorg1: merge is pending
<tjaalton> I've done it locally already
<tjaalton> just have five critical bugs to sort out before end of next week, so had to postpone testing this
<LocutusOfBorg1> tjaalton, WOW thanks!
<LocutusOfBorg1> well, in my ppa is already built
<LocutusOfBorg1> please be aware of the new wrapper
<LocutusOfBorg1> https://packages.qa.debian.org/x/xorg-server/news/20150821T010032Z.html
<tjaalton> I know
<LocutusOfBorg1> I did add xserver-xorg-legacy to virtualbox-x11 package, because it still need a root x mode (upstream is working on this)
<LocutusOfBorg1> and on ubuntu xenial it is currently failing to migrate in -release because of the installation test failure
<tjaalton> know that too :)
<LocutusOfBorg1> wonderful, so I'm happy to see you taking care of it
<LocutusOfBorg1> :D
<tjaalton> yes, maybe next week
<tjaalton> maybe the week after
 * LocutusOfBorg1 is wondering if we can have something like "make the package mandatory if exists, don't install otherwise", without playing with rules file
<LocutusOfBorg1> tjaalton, not a problem, actually my wonder was an answer like "ubuntu don't want to have this wrapper"
<LocutusOfBorg1> but if you plan to merge it, it is fine then, and I hope to remove the legacy dependency before xenial release anyway
<tjaalton> yep
<pitti> cjwatson: looking at bug 1511376 to do the equivalent finish-install fix in ubiquity
<ubottu> bug 1511376 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Xenial) "install writes /etc/mtab as file, not symlink" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511376
<pitti> cjwatson: as ubiquity doesn't actually (seem to) use the finish-install udeb
<pitti> cjwatson: I wondered, woudl ubiquity/install_misc.py chroot_cleanup() be an appropriate place for that, or is there a better one?
<pitti> cjwatson: i. e. to set /target/etc/mtab -> /proc/self/mounts
<cjwatson> pitti: That doesn't feel like the right place, no.  I'd suggest somewhere in scripts/plugininstall.py:Install
<cjwatson> There's a bunch of fairly ad-hoc finalisation tasks in there
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, thank you
<cyphermox> good morning
<mdeslaur> good morning cyphermox
<dupingping> Hi, everybody.
<dupingping> Who made the page? http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/desktop/models/?release=12.04+LTS&category=Desktop&category=Laptop
<dupingping> How about modify it as follow?
<dupingping> http://people.ubuntu.com/~dupingping86/
<dupingping> I just designed this page.
<seb128> bdmurray, hey, could you explain those
<seb128> "Your upload of nautilus version 1:3.10.1-0ubuntu9.9 to trusty has resulted in an error that was first reported about this version of the package.  The error follows:
<seb128> https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/c96cb327d13f20d2ae77c13634dd34454a57e6cf"
<seb128> but the table has reports for the 7 previous versions
<seb128> could you let that nautilus update in? the regressions mentioned are false ones
<bdmurray> seb128: in that case the problem didn't exist in or wasn't reported about 9.8 and that particular issue should be ignored, however I think there are some legitimate ones.
<seb128> which ones?
<bdmurray> https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/ddc9b270a643149cf4e73a57de6c326d8a468fb0
<seb128> bdmurray, that has reports on 1:3.10.1-0ubuntu9.3
<seb128> it's just not common
<bdmurray> but not on ubuntu8 which was the one in the release pocket
<dupingping> http://people.ubuntu.com/~dupingping86/
<seb128> right, but it's also a false regression
<dupingping> I just designed this page.
<seb128> dupingping, hey, you already wrote that
<bdmurray> https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/7b4d30774cd6698d6ac8a5718610a01b33b5e427 ?
<dupingping> seb128, the page is useful?
<seb128> dupingping, no idea, it looks like "old" compared to the ubuntu one to me
<seb128> the styling
<seb128> but I don't work on that website
<seb128> dupingping, you can open a bug with your suggestion on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website-content/+filebug
<bdmurray> https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/148216bb1232ca884058218ca27b169db04d02e0
<dupingping> seb128, yes, i see.
<seb128> bdmurray, again, that new one skept the previous version for some reason, but it as a couple of report for each precedent ones, it's not relevant
<seb128> bdmurray, unsure about the one before, it doesn't make sense for that to be a new issue due to the change and has only 3 reports
<bdmurray> seb128: 148216 only has package versions from -updates in 14.04 which seems suspicious. How about I review all the Trusty ones and email you with the ones that aren't obviously not regressions.
<seb128> bdmurray, ok, that works for me. The change in that SRU is a 1 liner basically undoing a change that was done in recent versions so going back to old code, it shouldn't create a regression ... I'm happy to review the list just to make sure though
<bdmurray> seb128: the review might be helpful for the phased updater too, so thanks
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: So as I mentioned earlier this week, we are substantially changing how we build images for xenial; if I point you at an image file (let me know the image format you consume), would you be able to test that out and check it works for you?
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: sure!
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: qcow2 for local qemu is most appreciated, and that works for glance import too; otherwise, qemu-img can convert between stuff, but woudl be easier not to
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: Great; I have a build from a couple of days ago, so I'll push that up somewhere.
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: no hurry, though; I probably won't get to testing it today any more, need to leave in about an hour
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: Don't worry, my Internet connection is in no hurry. ;)  Is a message in here enough, or shall I drop you an email with the URL?
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: either works for me
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: then I'll see how well I can download it through airport or hotel wifi :)
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: :D
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: I am producing QCOW2 images, so it's only ~320MB.
<pitti> "only" :)
<pitti> it was 150 or so in raring when we started with those, but they accumulated a lot of stuff (my package purge list has become rather long :) )
<tsimonq2> could I use the devel alias in my sources.list?
<pitti> tsimonq2: yes, works in principle
<pitti> I just found it to interact in funny ways with apt-cacher-ng, otherwise it's fine
<tsimonq2> pitti: could I do replace all from xenial to devel?
<pitti> yes
<tsimonq2> pitti: so how do I fix the apt-cacher-ng issues?
<pitti> I don't know
<pitti> I gave up using "devel"
<tsimonq2> anybody else know?
<pitti> tsimonq2: it might even work for you
<pitti> but I have tons of schroots, containers, QEMUs of different relelases etc. which all share one acng, and occasionally it caused hash sum mismatches
<pitti> but just try it
<tsimonq2> pitti: but how would I fix the hash sum mismatches then?
<pitti> pitti | I don't know
<tsimonq2> hmm.would +1 know about this better?
<Saviq> pitti, hey, question about packaging, from time to time we hit the proverbial wall of Build-Depends being too broad, has there been talk, or maybe there's a solution, to declare what's needed to build just the source package? maybe also test dependencies (autopkgtest helps here, but nocheck could skip those top-level deps)?
<slangasek> pitti: is p-m now using the trigger syntax for autopkgtests, and is there a way to see the value of triggers on autopkgtest.u.c?
<pitti> Saviq: sorry, I don't understand the question
<pitti> slangasek: yes, britney has used explicit triggers for maybe one or two months now, which makes the whole thing much more robust
<pitti> slangasek: it's also a prerequisite for minimizing deps from proposed
<pitti> slangasek: yes, there are two places: in result.tar there's a testinfo.json which contains it in machine parseable form
<pitti> slangasek: and if you look at the top of a log it says e. g. ADT_TEST_TRIGGERS=linux-meta/4.2.0.16.19
<slangasek> pitti: right. so fwiw I'm currently trying to figure out of devscripts in xenial-proposed is what caused the regression (on 2 of 3 architectures) in license-reconcile: http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/l/license-reconcile/xenial/amd64/ http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/l/license-reconcile/xenial/armhf/
<slangasek> pitti: could we have the triggers exposed on the index somehow?
<pitti> slangasek: yeah, I guess that would be usefull
<pitti> useful too
<slangasek> pitti: for that matter I don't see a link to result.tar
<slangasek> artifacts.tar.gz doesn't include this
<pitti> slangasek: no, it needs to be in result.tar, as proposed-migration, kernel-matrix, etc. need the testinfo.json
<pitti> right, there's no link to it; the general idea is to present results.tar in the debci log in a more human friendly  manner
<pitti> so that log should get it at lesat
<pitti> but showing it on the index page also sounds useful
<slangasek> pitti: ok, that's all the more reason to have the trigger info on the index page
 * pitti files bug 1511780
<ubottu> bug 1511780 in Auto Package Testing "debci: show test triggers" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511780
<slangasek> ta :)
<slangasek> meanwhile I've confirmed that devscripts was the trigger for the regression, how disappointing :)
<pitti> slangasek: if I ever get out of "OMGfixthisnow" mode, there's tons of improvements like this to be made
 * slangasek nods
<Saviq> pitti, if you only want to build a source package, you rarely need all of Build-Depends, same if you don't run the tests, some dependencies in Build-Depends are really runtime test dependencies
<Saviq> pitti, building a unity8 source package takes a long time in the train today because of all the packages its Build-Depends pulls in
<pitti> slangasek: confirming which package broke what should get a lot easier and more predictable with the -proposed minimalization too
<pitti> slangasek: I have 3/4 of the autopkgtest support written, but still fighting with what to do in the case when that apt pinning fails and we need to use full -proposed
<pitti> slangasek: I was going to look at that during the flight; no distractions :
<pitti> )
<pitti> Saviq: oh, I see; well, you never need any of the B-D to build a source
<Saviq> pitti, but some packages need some specific dh_ bits, and there's no way to declare those, either
<pitti> Saviq: "debuild -S -nc" should do fine and avoids any black magic that debian/rules might do to your package, or fail on
<pitti> Saviq: dh_* are not called for -S
<pitti> just debian/rules clean, which you can eliminate with -nc
<pitti> (of course you must then ensure to not have any build cruft there -- but we all build in sbuild, right?)
<Saviq> yup
<pitti> Saviq: I assume this is in the context of the train/automatic merges and stuff?
<Saviq> pitti, yes
<pitti> -nc should be fine there
<Saviq> pitti, yeah, that helps
<Saviq> robru, ââ
<pitti> Saviq: I'm surprised that you survived for so long without that
<pitti> a lot of packages need all kind of stuff which you really don't want to all install on these production boxes? :-)
<slangasek> Saviq, robru, pitti: I thought we had to use the clean target because it might do things like e.g. generation of debian/control
<slangasek> in the context of the train
<Saviq> slangasek, I also thought there's things like autoconf that you need to call before you can get a tarball out of a branch
<Saviq> or *re*conf
<slangasek> well
<slangasek> perhaps
<slangasek> though in that case these are not properly constructed UDD-style source-package branches, which I thought was a prerequisite for the train
<didrocks> Saviq: slangasek: yeah, a word of warning, but some cmake/autotools project expect the clean target to be run to build the source package
<didrocks> famous example being projects only having autogen.sh
 * slangasek nods
<didrocks> also, same issue with python projects, you need to resolve the imports for setup.py
<didrocks> hence the only rule that worked was "let's get b-d"
<didrocks> (not saying it's the right thing, just giving context)
<Saviq> didrocks, yeah, thanks, helps a lot
<Saviq> didrocks, I was just asking whether it's a topic in the dpkg community to potentially introduce something like Source-Depends
<Saviq> would save hours in the train...
<pitti> Saviq: no, it's not a topic AFAIK
<didrocks> Saviq: maybe we can start with a X-Source-Depends and brought the issue upstream? (and if not present, the train fallback to Build-Depends)
<Saviq> didrocks, yeah, that's what I was thinking
<Saviq> robru, â
<pitti> err, autogen.sh in "clean"? that's evil
<pitti> that belongs into build
<didrocks> pitti: you will never know what I've seen, my eyes are bleeding ;)
<didrocks> see, that's why I've glasses now!
<pitti> perhaps a good chance to actaully fix these packages :)
<Saviq> pitti, I think the problem is that the result of autogen.sh is expected to be part of the tarball...
<Saviq> or at least that's the history
<Saviq> didrocks, robru, bug #1511785
<ubottu> bug 1511785 in CI Train [cu2d] "Could save a lot of time in package preparation if we skipped build-depends" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511785
<pitti> Saviq: hm, that is really old school
<pitti> Saviq: normally you just build-dep on dh-autoreconf, have dh --with=autoreconf (or call dh_autoreconf for non-dh packages), and it'll DTRT
<pitti> avoids lots of noise between package builds, as they are really hard to review and utterly uninteresting
<Saviq> sure, agreed, wonder if there's a solution for setup.py
<Saviq> maybe we can drop b-d in the train and fix packaging instead
<pitti> Saviq: would it be totally unreasonable for train packages to require that they get updated to packaging standards which are only 3 years old, not 10? :-)
<Saviq> pitti, nope, +1 from me
<didrocks> pitti: how would you do it for python project?
<pitti> didrocks, Saviq: OOI, why does building a .dsc need to call setup.py?
<didrocks> bumping version for release
<didrocks> (and so creating version.py)
<pitti> sorry guys, I need to leave, and then long travel to Austin
<didrocks> (I guess some of our packages have the same mechanism in CMakeLists.txt)
<didrocks> pitti: have a safe travel!
<pitti> see you next week in an odd time zone :)
<Saviq> o/
<didrocks> enjoy jetlag! ;-)
<happyaron> pitti: safe trip, :)
<sil2100> slangasek, cjwatson: could anyone of you guys help me check the installability problem of ocaml on ppc64el? I don't have any way of getting this arch testable
<slangasek> sil2100: porter-ppc64el.canonical.com?
<sil2100> slangasek: how do you use that? ;)
<sil2100> First time I see this address
<slangasek> sil2100: https://wiki.canonical.com/InformationInfrastructure/ISO/BuildInfrastructure/PorterBoxes
<sil2100> Is it VPN only?
<sil2100> slangasek: thanks
<sil2100> slangasek: so, on the ppc64el porterbox it seems that the xenial chroot doesn't exist - it appears in the schroot -l but can't switch to it as /srv/chroots/xenial-ppc64el does not exist
<sil2100> slangasek: and I don't want to meddle too much on a machine that's used by others
<slangasek> sil2100: oh, sorry, of course this is xenial - and the current porter box is a P7, whereas xenial is built targetting P8 hardware, so we're without a working porter environment for xenial for the near term
<slangasek> sil2100: we're working on getting this fixed but it's going to take a bit of hardware shuffling
<sil2100> Ok... any other possibility of getting some ppc64el chroot to test that issue?
<slangasek> sil2100: probably easier to let me remote debug it for you.  What's the root of the issue you're trying to solve?
<sil2100> slangasek: it seems that the new ocaml is uninstallable on ppc64el, at least that's what the transition page says - not much more info sadly
<sil2100> It built fine and works good on all other archs
<sil2100> Want to make sure it's not a red herring
<cjwatson> sil2100: for installability issues, all you need is chdist(1) from ubuntu-dev-tools
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> sil2100: sorry, devscripts, not ubuntu-dev-tools
<cjwatson> no need at all to be on the same architecture, since it's purely configuring apt differently and then letting it do the graph analysis
<cjwatson> (and you can't actually install packages, obviously, but just say no to that prompt)
<slangasek> I don't remember seeing '.uninstallable' as a transition tag before; how does that work, anyway? is it possible the tag itself is broken for ppc64el?
<cjwatson> I think that is unlikely.  it's been around for ages and has always worked well for me
<cjwatson> dose-debcheck does the analysis
<cjwatson> or dose-distcheck or whatever it's called these days
<cjwatson> The following packages have unmet dependencies.
<cjwatson>  camlp4 : Depends: ocaml-nox-4.01.0
<cjwatson>  camlp4-extra : Depends: ocaml-nox-4.01.0
<cjwatson> says chdist
<cjwatson> ah
<cjwatson> I bet this is NBS
<cjwatson> yeah, camlp4 is now distributed separately, and probably hasn't been auto-synced due to it being in an ubuntu-versioned source
<cjwatson> being called away, will come back and sort this out soon
<tumbleweed> autopkgtest.ubuntu.com seems MIA
<sarnold> tumbleweed: there's some issues in the datacenter, it's possible that's one of the affected services
<sil2100> cjwatson: camlp4 is something different
<sil2100> cjwatson: anyway, thanks!
<robru> slangasek: yes we have a couple packages now that are generating debian/control by './debian/rules clean' but we invoke that manually, eg, no deps are present during cleaning. deps get installed by 'bzr bd' afterwards.
<robru> slangasek: pitti I'm open to trying 'debuild -S -nc' after a maual './debian/rules clean', I'm not sure what implications that would have though
<cjwatson> sil2100: camlp4 is the cause of your problem :P
<cjwatson> sil2100: it's still present in xenial and lists ocaml as its source package there, and therefore gets counted as uninstallable by the tracker even though that isn't really true for the purposes of the transition
<cjwatson> sil2100: I've synced camlp4 now, that should make this glitch go away
<sil2100> cjwatson: strange that it didn't cause any problems on other archs
<sil2100> I actually thought that camlp4 was already synced because of that
<sil2100> cjwatson: anyway, thanks! :)
<hallyn> urg
<hallyn> arges: hey are you around?
<hallyn> could you remove the netcf vivid package i just pushed to vivid-proposed?  (it may just get auto-refused - i used same version # currently in use in wily)
<hallyn> i guess i'll use 1:0.2.6-1ubuntu1~15.04.1   ?  vivid currently has 1:0.2.6-1, wily has 1:0.2.6-1ubuntu1
<hallyn> or 1:0.2.6-1ubuntu0.15.04.1
<hallyn> ok yup, auto-rejected
<slangasek> sil2100, cjwatson: either of you know why camlp4 has added a 'camlp4-dbgsym' binary package? (currently in binary NEW)
<slangasek> that seems like a horribly wrong thing for the Debian ftpmasters to have let into the archive
<ScottK> slangasek: I don't think it generates that binary in Debian.
<cjwatson> slangasek: our NEW shows *-dbgsym
<cjwatson> sil2100: yeah, I didn't look at other arches
<cjwatson> slangasek: (this is arguably a bug, but not a very important one)
<arges> hallyn: ok back i see netcf in vivid queue.... is that the right one?
<slangasek> cjwatson: oh; so the dbgsym being listed as 'NEW' doesn't mean it's in Debian as a .deb, ok
<slangasek> doko: I'm assuming that your syncing of swig 3.0.7-1 means that we want to trade swig2 for swig3 in main now
<hallyn> arges: yup, it's the right one now :)  thx
<cjwatson> sil2100,slangasek: there is in fact a subtle bug in the transition tracker which you can ignore for your purposes
<cjwatson> it's to do with the stuff that tries to filter out packages from the release pocket that've been superseded en bloc by source packages in -proposed
<cjwatson> the problem is that that only filters out binaries from a given component if it finds binaries from that component in -proposed *in the same component*
<cjwatson> so camlp4-extra is in universe, and should be disregarded since it's only in the release pocket and there's a newer version of the ocaml source in -proposed
<cjwatson> but as it happens, the only non-arch-all binary built by the ocaml source that remains in universe is ocaml-native-compilers, and that happens to be built on all architectures except for ppc64el (presumably it requires porting)
<cjwatson> so the top-level tracker "go" script fails to filter out camlp4-extra, but just on ppc64el
<cjwatson> you owe me half an hour of my life scratching my head trying to figure that one out :P
 * cjwatson attempts a quick fix
<hjd> Could someone please retry libio-compress-lzma-perl in Xenial? :) Looks like it failed to build initially because it was synced/attempted built before one of its dependencies (libio-compress-perl) which is now available.
<cjwatson> hjd: done
<hjd> cjwatson: Thank you.
<cjwatson> damnit, I shouldn't edit transition tracker code at 9pm on Friday, I fear I may have broken it and don't immediately have time to fix it
<cjwatson> I'll come back to it in a bit and figure it out if nobody beats me to it
<cjwatson> I guess I could just have hit a locking failure, since update-transitions doesn't have locking of its own
<cjwatson> ah yes, just locking silliness
<cjwatson> sil2100: should sort itself out in a bit but I have to wait for cron to do its thing
<hjd> Another thing I stumbled across; django-celery depends on python3-django-nose which in turn depends on python3-nose. However, this was broken for a short while in python3-django-nose so it didn't pull in python3-nose which caused django-celery to ftbfs in Xenial. This should be fixed again now, and I suspect the package would build successfully on a rebuild.
<hjd> Though I wonder whether there's any guidelines regarding transitive dependencies or if packages should ideally list all necessary dependencies even if they happen to also be installed by other dependencies?
<sil2100> cjwatson: thanks!
#ubuntu-devel 2015-10-31
<doko> slangasek, yes, forgot to prmote it, I'll look if anything explicitly b-d's on swig2.0
<slangasek> doko: I sorted out the revdeps now
<slangasek> and am working on dolfin
<doko> ahh, good. then I'm afk
<slangasek> pitti: this failure doesn't look to me like it's caused by audit; that shouldn't change the nameservers in /etc/resolv.conf... :) http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/s/systemd/xenial/amd64/
<dupingping> hey, everybody.
<dupingping> How to register new localization?
<decci> Hello developers
<decci> I am new to .DEB packaging system.I tried tools like checkinstall but it lacks rules making feature
<decci> Anyone with experience on how rules are written
<rbasak> decci: easiest to use debhlper's dh sequencer nowadays.
<rbasak> decci: install debhelper and then see dh(1)
<decci> rbasak: do you mean checkinstall might not help with rule part
<rbasak> I don't know about checkinstall
<decci> rbasak: debreate looks good tool but sometimes it doesnt help to see what goes behind the hood
<sdfgsdfg> hey, i'm wondering if there is some inotify-esque interface that instead of pooling resources can just match for any fs event with a certain dir prefix. or possibly every fs event and then i can filter myself
<elosz> what's the difference between extended security and trusted extended attributes ? http://linux.die.net/man/5/attr
<elosz> extended security -> normal process can read , superuser can read and write
<elosz> trusted -> only superuser can read and write
<elosz> is my understanding correct?
<vthompson> Is there a recommended way to install the latest UI Toolkit that's installed on the rc-proposed image on your development machine? The one in wily (and in the SDK team PPA) appears to be 1.3.1627+15.10.20150908-0ubuntu1 whereas the version in rc-proposed is 1.3.1688+15.04.20151018.1-0ubuntu1
<tsimonq2> does nayone know if I could push a package from Debian Experimental to a Launchpad ppa?
<tsimonq2> nvm
#ubuntu-devel 2015-11-01
<tsimonq2> can anyone help me as in the install path of libmenu-cache
<tsimonq2> ?
<tsimonq2> how would I import a git repo into a Launchpad ppa?
<hjd> Hello, could someone please trigger a rebuild of r-bioc-genomicfeatures in Xenial? :) I think it might work better since one of the dependencies have been synced and now fulfills the version requirement.
<ginggs> hjd: queued
<ginggs> hjd: built
<hjd> ginggs: Thank you :)
<ginggs> hjd: yw
<pitti> slangasek: yes, that's normal; binNEW alwasys shows all auto-generated -dbgsym packages
<pitti> slangasek: systemd networkd test failure> nope, that just randomly happens, that test has a race condition
<pitti> slangasek: I retried it yesterday already
<pitti> (succeeded)
#ubuntu-devel 2016-10-31
<mwhudson> tsimonq2: ah ok, seems like it's getting there
<tsimonq2> I want things synced too... :P
<TheMuso> Of course if you want something badly enough and its not part of the transition, you could sync it yourself or get it synced.
<tsimonq2> Yeah.
<tsimonq2> That makes me want to be a MOTU. :P
<cpaelzer> good morning
<hammed> anyone here has root
<ikonia> hammed: this is not the channel for htis
<ikonia> hammed: you've already done this in #ubuntu - if you need help, please ask in #ubuntu
<dax> (and #kubuntu)
<dax> oh, you noticed, nvm
<hammed> ok
<hammed> anyone here help me with ubuntu root
<Nafallo> hammed: please read the conversation you just had one more time.
<hammed> ok
<smoser> anyone have a easy way to do
<smoser>  source_package_for_binary_package(binpkg_name, release)
<smoser> i'd like to avoid chdist or the like , and need to deal with binpkg_name that is not the same arch i'm running
<smoser> rbasak, maybe ^ ?
<rbasak> smoser: how are you expecting it to do that? By asking Launchpad, or consulting an apt repository? The latter requires chdist or the like. I don't see any other way.
<smoser> i dont care how
<smoser> chdist could work, but just seems really heavy
<persia> grep-dctrl, maybe?
<smoser> i've been surprised before that this is so difficult.
<smoser> persia, i dont follow.
<Laney> smoser: The Packages file paragraphs contain a Source field if the source package name is different to the binary package name, and you can use grep-dctrl to get it
<Laney> -sSource:Package -P binarypackagename or similar
<smoser> right.
<smoser> i thoguht persia was impliying something more.  that'd require chdist and getting each release i wanted to query about
<smoser> and also each arch
<Laney> You can get the packages files some other way
<Laney> Doesn't /have/ to be chdist
<smoser> sure.
<Laney> ok, so that's not easy for you but I'm afraid I don't know of a way that I would consider easier
<smoser> it just seems so reasonable a question... i have a list of packages that are installed (or in an image) what source did they come from.
<smoser> yes, i can most certainly write that. and fix the edge cases, but it just seems like it shoudl exist.
<Laney> Use one of the dctrl-tools programs if you are inside the environment, otherwise look at the Packages files if you want to know about some random archive
<Laney> (Well, you'd use grep-dctrl in the second case too)
<smoser> again, i can write this. its not "hard".  but my initial want was a list of all source packages that have been included in an ubuntu cloud image for any arch in any (recent) release.
<persia> I can't find my script, but I remember having one that mirrored the sources for each release into a set of directories, and then consumed that to get this information.  There aren't very many interesting corner cases.
<juliank> If someone wants to look at the (unfortunately huge, as it's been four months since the last one) apt 1.2.15 xenial SRU today or tomorrow: I'll be around these two days (from 0900-2200 CET, roughly); maybe on Thursday too
<juliank> I hope to bring this down to monthly SRUs from now on, that should really make things easier to review.
<juliank> (That is, whenever 1.3 gets a new release, there'll be a corresponding bugfix-only release in the 1.2 series within a month)
<juliank> I directly uploaded the changes file this time as people were not that happy about the sync with 1.2.14 :)
<jderose> cyphermox: FYI, Zesty desktop daily ISO isn't installable - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1638086
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638086 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Zesty: An attempt to configure apt to install additional packages from the CD failed" [Undecided,New]
<xnox> jderose, needs logs, responded on the bug report.
<jbicha> jderose: xnox: see bug 1637985
<ubottu> bug 1637985 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Install Fail - Attempt to configure apt to install additional packages from CD" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1637985
<xnox> Timeout error, please try again in a few minutes.
<Laney> xnox: if parcimonie passes its autopkgtests, can I sync it?
<xnox> sure
<xnox> jderose, i cannot comment because lp times out.
<Laney> thx
<xnox> will fix this. Need to drop 1k signatures from cdimage building.
<xnox> jbicha, ^
 * Laney is trying to make red things go green
<Laney> xnox: libgnupg-interface-perl/s390x might be up your street
<Laney> (autopkgtest)
<coreycb> bdmurray, hi, would you by any chance have some time to review the openstack packages in xenial review queue this week?
<xnox> Laney, in a way it is not. It passes in KVM & bare metal, but not inside LXD
<xnox> Laney, as gnupg goes something rather, namespace, something rather
<xnox> it was ignored failure before for the gnupg2 transition.
<xnox> however, not sure, how good/bad it actually is. General usage seems to work inside lxd containers
<Laney> xnox: I thought the intersection of gpg and s390x would make you happy
<Laney> if it was skipped already, happy to do so again if that's your desire
<bdmurray> coreycb: the existing ones got verified?
<bdmurray> coreycb: also there seem to be 2 novas in the queue w/ the same version
<coreycb> bdmurray, checking..  mind rejecting the latest nova?  that's a mistake.
<coreycb> bdmurray, nova and nova-lxd should be ready for review.  neutron is blocked by a package that I need to verify in  -proposed.
<bdmurray> coreycb: rejected
<coreycb> bdmurray, thanks
<bdmurray> coreycb: yes, I'll have a look in the next couple of days
<coreycb> bdmurray, thanks. I'll try to get neutron verified before then.
<jderose> cyphermox: okay, thanks! i attached a tarbal of /var/log to the bug
<cyphermox> thanks, I will look
<cyphermox> would you happen to have time to try out some new initramfs-tools/isc-dhcp crack?
<jderose> cyphermox: sure... for Zesty or what?
<cyphermox> yep, all in zesty
<jderose> (actually, Zesty would take me a bit more work to test, but i can)
<cyphermox> oh
<cyphermox> well, I can get you the similar stuff for Y for tomorrow, too
<jderose> cyphermox: so is this testing the same initramfs issue (newer iteration thereof)?
<cyphermox> yep
<cyphermox> I'd put it all in my ppa:cyphermox/maas
<jderose> cyphermox: high level, how does this differ from what's being done in Xenial currently?
<cyphermox> well, we reverted all the ipv6 stuff, so it does IPv6
<jderose> cyphermox: let me get my environment setup... assuming i don't hit other issues along the way, i'll give it a go
<cyphermox> it normally does dhcp via ipconfig if you set ip=dhcp, or dhcp via dhclient if you don't give it enough info -- ie. ip=(nothing) or ip=:::::::::::whatever
<cyphermox> jderose: thanks.
<jderose> er, hmm, but i don't know if zesty server is currently installable. you happen to know whether it is?
<cyphermox> sorry, I don't
<cyphermox> I expect it should be
<jderose> np, i'll find out soon enough :)
<cyphermox> It's early a bit, I haven't really spun up VMs with zesty dailies, only reinstalled my laptop
<cyphermox> I know you use the netboot stuff so it so it's interesting to have your opinion.
<mwhudson> morning
<jderose> cyphermox: yeah, thanks for pinging me on this. i'm keen to keep PXE booting working, so always happy to test :)
<jderose> cyphermox: Zesty server daily ISO is also broken, so don't think I can test this today... but I will soon, thanks again!
<cyphermox> ok
<cyphermox> I will kick off a download of the server iso then, and look at that tonight
<jderose> cyphermox: seems to be the same problem currently present in the desktop ISO
<xnox> jderose, it's the same signature bug as above
<xnox> cyphermox, i removed 1024DSA key from ubuntu-keyring, yet both the archive and cd-roms are signed with both.
<xnox> apt is fine with just one valid signature.
<xnox> cdrom appears to want both.
<cyphermox> ah, I didn't see
<xnox> apt-setup or some such.
<xnox> jderose, please don't open more bug reports.
<xnox> jderose, no need to reproduce with every single flavour either. They are all broken =)
<xnox> cyphermox, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1637985
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1637985 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Install Fail - Attempt to configure apt to install additional packages from CD" [Critical,Triaged]
<cyphermox> xnox: so you're not working on a fix in d-i then?
<xnox> and my comment there.
<cyphermox> (trying to understand if you say that because you're expecting me to fix it)
<xnox> cyphermox, i was going to fix ubuntu-cdimage to sign cdroms with just one key.
<cyphermox> ok
<xnox> cyphermox, i am expecting me to fix it =)
<xnox> tomorrow, as it's night time =)
<cyphermox> ok, just making sure we don't double the work
<nacc> slangasek: let's say i had a src pkg (e.g. spamassassin) with multiple orig tarballs. Can `gbp-import-orig` not be used for such a package? It seems like I would need to use `dpkg-source -x --skip-debianization` and import that directory, but then (it seems) `gbp import-orig` needs to run interactively (which of course I'm trying to avoid for the importer)
<slangasek> nacc: don't know if gbp import-orig works with multiple-tarball, sorry
<nacc> slangasek: np, it doesn't seem to, afaict :)
<nacc> trying to figure out the easiest way for me to support pristine-tar in the importer
#ubuntu-devel 2016-11-01
<pdeee> Hi folks! I'm an upstream developer of certbot (previously known as "letsencrypt")
<pdeee> and hlieberman is our debian developer
<RAOF> Hi there!
<pdeee> we're trying to figure out the process of getting an up-to-date copy of cerbot into Ubuntu
<pdeee> most especially xenial, where there's an increasingly old and unecessarily buggy version
<pdeee> though we also have questions about other Ubuntu versions, I suspect
<RAOF> pdeee: So, the certbot package in Yakkety is synced, unchanged, from Debian; Zesty has just opened, so we'll shortly be pulling whatever the current version in Debian unstable (and further uploads to Debian will auto-sync, until Zesty freeze)
<pdeee> RAOF, which debian channel would Yakkety sync from? Testing?
<RAOF> No; Yakkety is released.
<RAOF> For released, stable versions, you'll be interacting with our stable release updates process: That covers the development release. As for stable releases, you'll be
<RAOF> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<pdeee> we've been looking at that and trying to figure out what we need to do next
<pdeee> it seems one thing is to get 0.9.3 (which is in Debian unstable and testing) into Zesty, since that's much better than 0.8.1, and also very well tested at this point
<pdeee> then follow the process to pull 0.9.3 back into Xenial and Yakkety
<RAOF> Yes, that's mostly a prerequisite for getting anything into yakkety-updates. Bugs have to be fixed in the development release before we accept fixes in -updates âº
<pdeee> and that's currently blocked because Zesty is new and not yet syncing?
<RAOF> I think it actually is syncing, or maybe it's slightly blocked for a perl transition.
<RAOF> But that will be over soon, and 0.9.3 will get autosynced into zesty.
<RAOF> The trick with SRUs is sometimes working out whether to do them; typically we *don't* want the latest release as a stable-release-update, we want bugfix-only releases (or just bugfixes).
<RAOF> This interactsâ¦ interestingly with online services like letsencrypt, though :)
<RAOF> So it's entirely possible that 0.9.3 will be appropriate to put into -updates.
<pdeee> RAOF, we wouldn't ask you to take all of our latest releases
<pdeee> when we did 0.9.0, it contained a giant set of both new features and bug fixes
<pdeee> we have lots of tests in our tree, but even so such releases usually contain minor regressions
<hlieberman> RAOF: Believe me, I've been beating them over the head with this lesson as stretch freeze approaches. ;)
<pdeee> so we did 0.9.1, 0.9.2 and 0.9.3 to fix those regressions as we became aware of them
<RAOF> hlieberman: :)
<pdeee> at this point we've issued a few hundred thousand certificates to users of 0.9.3, and are pretty sure it contains no further substantial regression
<RAOF> pdeee: So, one important point: does 0.9.3 break any workflows that someone on 0.8.1 would have set up?
<pdeee> definitely not
<RAOF> You've added new features - has anything changed in a backward-incompatible way? (Including workarounds for bugs that are now fixed?)
<pdeee> we're extremely protective of those
<pdeee> no, again we'd try very very hard to ensure we don't break our own users that way
<RAOF> Excellent. That's what we're trying to avoid in the SRU process, so if you're caring about that it makes it easier to SRU :)
<pdeee> afk for a few minutes, but hlieberman a question i have for you is whether there are any steps in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates that you might want help with
<RAOF> So, you've got a bunch of tests in the tree. Can we run those as a part of packaging?
<pdeee> yes
<RAOF> Good, good. That also makes it easier to approve SRUs!
<pdeee> hlieberman already does (we know, because occasionally they break for fascinating context-dependent reasons)
<hlieberman> RAOF: Yup.  And I consider any failing tests to render the package RC-buggy, so there should never be any broken tests in Debian.
<hlieberman> I haven't yet gotten around to integrating it into Debian CI, but it is run as part of build.
<hlieberman> (both by me, in an sbuild schroot, and by the buildds.)
<RAOF> Excellent. Once you get the DEP-8 metadata in place, our britany will gate on it too.
<hlieberman> Yeah.  I think I need to do something vaguely gross to get the DEP-8 stuff to work with actual as-installed testing, but it's on the roadmap.
 * pdeee is back for a bit
<slangasek> nacc: does gbp import-dsc support multitar?  if so, you could pick apart what that does
<mardy> Mirv: hi! are there plans to land qt 5.6 in xenial?
<Mirv> mardy: xenial-overlay already has it, that's as far as xenial is concerned. major Qt upgrades do not fall under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates criteria.
<mardy> Mirv: ok. Then do you know what's the state of bug 1615265? It's marked as released, but the bug is still there in xenial
<ubottu> bug 1615265 in qtlocation-opensource-src (Ubuntu RTM) "OpenStreetMap Plugin for Map QML type broken" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1615265
<Mirv> mardy: LP bugs refer to latest development series. if something is wanted to be backported as SRU, it'd be needed to be nominated for xenial for example.
<Mirv> mardy: hmm, in what use case you ask regarding that bug? I mean, it's fixid in yakkety + xenial-overlay, do you have desktop xenial application you're considering or something like that?
<mardy> Mirv: well yes :-)
<mardy> Mirv: I might end up shipping qt 5.6 with my app anyway, but having the bug fixed can be useful especially for developers, who test their apps on the xenial desktop
<dholbach> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Yakkety Yak (16.10) Released | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-xenial | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | Patch Pilots: dholbach
<Mirv> mardy: yeah if you snap using xenial overlay it'd solve the problem too. vivid backport seems hard, not sure if 5.6 -> 5.5 plugin backporting could be easier.
<Mirv> the mapbox plugin is needed
<dholbach> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Yakkety Yak (16.10) Released | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-xenial | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | Patch Pilots:
 * Mirv hugs dholbach 
 * dholbach hugs Mirv back :-)
<DiegoTc> Hi to all, if you could like to help in the Google Code In 2016 (GCI) this year as mentor, please help us adding your  task to the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GoogleCodeIn2016
<nacc> slangasek: ack, i think i got a method that works with dpkg-source -x --skip-debianization, but I still need to tweak a few of the assumptions made by gbp import-orig. I think I'm pretty close
<nacc> smoser: hrm, so `gbp import-orig` with --pristine-tar is working, but it is producing tar.bz2 files, when the corresponding dsc files use tar.gz. I assume that's not ideal, is it also incorrect? I have verified the contents of the tarballs are identical, just differently compressed -- I'm not sure how to avoid it yet
<teward> the perl transition is over, right?  For the most part?
<hjd> teward: seems to be one package remaining https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/perl5.24.html
<smoser> nacc, i dont really *care*..
<smoser> but uploading the .bz2 if the .gz was already uploaded could fail i guess.
<smoser> right?
<smoser> i dont know if it does.
<teward> hjd: more or less asked because nginx finally got out of proposed, which was on my radar.  SO, more or less complete except that one package?
<smoser> but launchpad cries if you upload the same version with a different orig tarball (i know it does reject it if you do that with the existing orig name)
<nacc> smoser: ah yes, true,when you went to build, it might
<hjd> teward: looks like it, but I don't know anything more than what the page says :)
<teward> :)
<smoser> nacc, well i think it would just reject the upload. and i guess it would fail if you were trying to re-build a existing .dsc as you dont actually have a file that is referenced.
<nacc> smoser: right, so not good :)
<nacc> smoser: ok, so gbp import-orig 0.8.0 has support for multiple orig tarballs
<nacc> smoser: do you know if anyo f the packaes on our list actually have multiple orig tarballs?
<jbicha> I believe LibreOffice has multiple orig tarballs
<nacc> jbicha: thanks, good to know
<nacc> jbicha: there are definitely packages that do, i'm just not sure they are in the purview of the packages we care about for 1.0 of the importer :)
<jbicha> yeah, LO is not a very minimal test case
<nacc> jbicha: i think spamassassin is probably a better one for server right now
<nacc> smoser: i assume that one is on your list?
<rbasak> nacc: I'm not sure I'm keen on the importer importing orig tarballs. I think I'm quite happy to leave that to the Debian archive and to Launchpad to maintain, and just have tooling pull them from those sources when needed.
<nacc> rbasak: ok, i believe it means we can't be compat with gbp then
<nacc> rbasak: at least, on my first reading of it
<rbasak> Do we need to be?
<rbasak> What benefit would that give us (genuine question)?
<nacc> i thought it was in our plans to try to be, yes
<nacc> other developers brought it up at some point, i'd need to go look in my logs
<smoser> nacc, i dont think spamassasin wasin the list.
<smoser> i've a ton of dsc files on that ndoe that i'im doing the import on
<smoser> feel free to look around and grep
<smoser> rbasak, my interest in pristine-tar is only in its promise.
<smoser> i'm fine with having a tool that says "get me the orig tarball" and having it work.
<nacc> i think what we want it is a usd build-package
<nacc> probably
<nacc> which knows that we may not have the corresponding orig and dtrt
<smoser> but if that tool is 'git pristin-tarball' and i've *already* that orig tarball , then that seems a nice side affect.
<rbasak> I'd be happy with a well known local cache directory or something like that.
<smoser> however, if that costs me a 20% increase in my .git dir, i'm not so keen on it.
<smoser> rbasak, that is what pristine-tarball does. if it works.
<rbasak> Then any tool could use it, including a usd build-package
<rbasak> Or even populate the cache at usd clone time.
<nacc> smoser: didn't you object to having a cache?
<smoser> i dont thin i have an objection to a cache
<nacc> ok
<smoser> but if pristine tarball actually means that i basically can create the orig tarballs "for free" from that same git clone
<nacc> which it does
<smoser> then yeah, thats wonderful
<nacc> pristine-tar checkout <tarball>
<smoser> s//which it does/which it might do/
<smoser> "for free" is the part i'm not sure of
<smoser> and that is the part that i think is a requirement
<smoser> at least there is some cost at which i'd say forget it
<rbasak> Using the git workflow already has a bandwidth downside. When you clone a branch, you clone the entire history (usually), not just the current source package.
<smoser> if every clone cost me 2x, then forget it.
<smoser> if every clone cost me 1.02x, then yeah. magic is nice.
<rbasak> On top of that difference the extra bandwidth to download an orig tarball seems insignificant to me.
<nacc> even if we had tars in pristine-tar; it feels like we'd still wrap it in some knowledge of the helper tools, so it becomes irrelevant to the end-user
<smoser> not entirely irrelevant. waste is not irrelevant. it really is just a matter of how much.
<nacc> ok, it's irrelevant to the process
<nacc> where you get the tarball from, as long as it's correct, is not important (yet)
<smoser> if 'usd-clone <pkgname>' got you all  possible orig tarballs along with the source that you cloned and came at cost of about one download of an orig tarball
<smoser> then of course we'd want that.
<nacc> but, again, that's an optimization
<nacc> not a requirement either way, afaict
<smoser> nacc, it *is* important when you're offline
<smoser> its not an optimization then
<smoser> :)
<nacc> smoser: we never said we'd support offline-ness
<nacc> smoser: you're doing feature creep again
<smoser> no
<nacc> smoser: or broadening my scope beyond what we intended to support
<smoser> well of course.
<smoser> yes, absolutely it is feature creep to have access to all orig tarballs
<nacc> right
<smoser> nacc, but to be clear, you were talking about the same feature creep above
<nacc> yes, and in both cases, an optimization
<smoser> so it is a matter of how that feature is implemented. and pristine-tar has the potential to be very nice.
<cjwatson> pristine-tar overhead is generally insignificant
<nacc> cjwatson: ack, it doesn't seem big, except for my tooling dealing with it :)
<smoser> nacc, given the difficulty you're having, it might be worth re-considering what i'd originally said...
<smoser> i dont think we *have* to do this now
<nacc> smoser: i think i have it, tbh -- just not sure we can support multiple origs with it
<smoser> is there value in doing it now versus adding the pristine-tar later.
<nacc> but if rbasak doesn't want it at all, not sure :)
<nacc> let me get some numbers
<nacc> smoser: i'll just get a size on the resuling .git directories
<smoser> honestly, if the nubers are like 2%, then rbask doesn't get to complain. especially since he's already said the workflow "has a bandwidth downside" and has discounted that
<smoser> :)
<smoser> nacc, in theory... i think you shoudl be able to do the import with pristine-tar all that there, then just delete those branches and git-gc and compare
<smoser> right ?
<rbasak> I'm not complaining about the bandwidth. I'm complaining about the extra complexity, maintenance burden, bug surface, etc.
<smoser> rbasak, we can also drop it later
<rbasak> The bandwidth I don't care about.
<nacc> rbasak: it doesn't really do anything to do the rest of the imported tree
<smoser> nacc, ie, comparison is very easy.
<rbasak> If instead we have tooling that just pulls and caches from LP when needed, it feels like there's less to go wrong.
<nacc> rbasak: and i'm trying to use gbp-import-orig as much as possible
<nacc> smoser: yeah, i just need to actually run the imports locally :)
<rbasak> So if we end up with this, it feels like you're taking away the simple option from me :-)
<nacc> smoser: rbasak: also, i wonder -- we're sort of optimizing the corner-case(s). That is, our primary issue is it's not trivial to build when you use the importer tree
<nacc> having *all* orig tarballs available fixes a much large problem than that
<nacc> rbasak: an interesting thing is that there is not already a trivial way to just get the corresponding upstream for a to-build version. smoser has a script to warp it
<smoser> nacc, fyi, https://code.launchpad.net/~smoser/usd-importer/+git/usd-importer/+merge/309777
<nacc> smoser: nice
<rbasak> nacc: yeah, I imagine that to be part of a usd build command.
<nacc> rbasak: ack
<nacc> rbasak: the advantage we get from pristine-tar for that is, presuming the tarball is already defined (e.g., for the debian version we're merging to), we don't need to do any searching, we can just `pristine-tar`. Otherwise, we have to 'figure out' where to get the upstream tarball from?
<rbasak> nacc: can we get it from Launchpad - Ubuntu if defined in Ubuntu, else Debian? Doesn't that cover all cases?
<smoser> nacc, do you have a published branch of what you've got so far ?
<nacc> smoser: let me push it up
<nacc> rbasak: i guess so; you'd basically look for the parent's version and pull that
<smoser> nacc, http://paste.ubuntu.com/23407877/ that was my list, and spamassasin was in it.
<nacc> smoser: ack
<rbasak> nacc: I'd look for the upstream orig tarball version mentioned in debian/changelog, if it's not already in the parent directory and also not in the cache.
<rbasak> I'm not sure if the LP API means that you have to walk the publishing history to find a version that matches the same upstream version, or if there's a more direct way.
<rbasak> But I'd look in the Ubuntu distro first, then fall back to the Debian distro.
<rbasak> Assuming it's a non-native package of course.
<nacc> rbasak: right, i didn't find a way to get upstream tarballs directly, but hadn't looked exhaustively
<nacc> smoser: https://git.launchpad.net/~nacc/usd-importer/log/?h=orig_tarball
<nacc> smoser: i just switched it from using dpkg-source -x'd directory for import-orig to the tarball directly
<nacc> smoser: testing that now
<nacc> rbasak: it feels like in our process, it would be always be the nearest import tag's orig tarball?
<rbasak> nacc: what if I'm bumping to a new upstream version ahead of Debian?
<nacc> then we'd have no way to do that in any process
<rbasak> Though in that case I suppose I'd have it in the parent directory.
<nacc> you'd need to use uupdate
<nacc> or uscan
<rbasak> It just feels to me that it really should match the upstream version in the first entry of debian/changelog.
<nacc> launchpad wouldn't have it already either
<rbasak> If you want to use the tags to try and locate a version that LP might have, I'm OK with that.
<rbasak> It feels like there's no need to couple this with the tags though. It is possible to do it independently.
<nacc> rbasak: the issue is, aiui, there's no link to upstream tarballs in launchpad
<nacc> rbasak: i'd have to manually munge the dsc file still
<nacc> and even then, only for dsc files that are upblished
<nacc> which are exactly those that are tagged in the importer
<rbasak> I don't follow. Here's my algorithm:
<rbasak> 1) If native package, fail; 2) Look up required upstream version based on first entry in debian/changelog; 3) if in parent directory or in cache, succeed immediately with the first of those found;
<nacc> [ 2) doesn't work for multiple orig aiui ]
<nacc> rbasak: ok, i'm presuming there is a 4) coming?
<rbasak> 4) walk Launchpad publishing entries for source package name in Ubuntu, most recent first. First match for upstream version wins; 5) try 4) again but with Debian
<rbasak> I don't understand why 2 wouldn't work even with multiple orig
<nacc> what is the 'usptream version'? it doesn't give you the name of the tarballs
<nacc> oh i see
<nacc> so you're just saying run srcpkg.pull() again
<nacc> for a specific srcpkg
<rbasak> Yes, though I didn't know the API details. If possible, grab orig tarballs only. If not possible, grab everything then throw everything but orig tarballs away.
<nacc> not possible, afaict
<persia> A large number of packages have a `get-orig-source` rule in debian/rules that should perform the package-specific logic to get the files necessary.  Is the use case for this sufficiently different from that to need separate logic?
<nacc> persia: could be a try/catch kind of thing
<nacc> persia: what we really want to avoid, though, is in any way using a tarball different than what is published
<rbasak> persia: we could fall back to that maybe, but it's also not guaranteed that the thing that "get-orig-source" will fetch is what the uploader uploaded, in which case we'd end up with a mismatch and a reject.
<persia> If you want bitwise compatibility, you want pristine-tar (which is where you were before I mentioned anything, so I'll leave you to it)
<rbasak> persia: it's the archive (whether Debian or Ubuntu) that holds the definite binary blob, and that's what we want to grab ideally.
<rbasak> pristine-tar is just another way of getting it. What was proposed before (AIUI) is round-tripping that through the git repo via pristine-tar.
<nacc> rbasak: ok, so we could make our own API for this pretty easily, I guess
<nacc> rbasak: that downloads any tarball in dsc files that contains orig.tar
<nacc> or whatever the appropriate regex would be
<rbasak> nacc: not possible, aiui> the web UI seems to be able to do it, in that I can find the URL associated with an orig tarball only IIRC. But fair enough if the Python binding doesn't expose that to you.
<nacc> rbasak: i think that's being built from lplib
<nacc> rbasak: i mean, i could generate that too, i suppose
<rbasak> OK, beyond my knowledge now. I'll leave that to you :-)
<rbasak> Anyway, do you get my gist? I'm not saying it *has* to be that way. It just feels less error-prone/complex to me.
<nacc> rbasak: yeah, i see what you have; it's definitely less complex
<rbasak> At the cost of bandwidth, admittedly, but it feels to me that it's worth the gain in simplicity.
<nacc> rbasak: how do you want the cache to work? in $HOME? or in the repo itself?
<nacc> rbasak: and how/waht manages the cache?
<rbasak> Right - given that we're already paying bandwidth cost in cloning the entire repo.
<nacc> yep
<rbasak> cache> I don't mind particularly. $XDG_CACHE_DIR would be nice, addtionally with support inside pull-lp-source! But that's perhaps scope creep. Inside the repo would be fine I think.
<nacc> rbasak: right, so we'd store them somehwere in .git? How does that work normally? will it 'just work' to push those objects up?
<rbasak> I meant in .git, but not inside the git data structure.
<rbasak> So it wouldn't push or pull.
<rbasak> Another user's tooling would find it missing and use my algorithm above to fetch it directly from LP as needed.
<nacc> ah ok
<nacc> so purely local cache
<nacc> got it
<rbasak> Right
<nacc> smoser: my branch does some stuff to stop using xgit for the importer itself, which i think i might commit anyways
<nacc> as that's more a usd-clone detail than an import details
<nacc> *detail
<nacc> rbasak: ok, i think we're on the same page now
<nacc> rbasak: but all of that is in a (yet non-existent) usd-build, right?
<rbasak> nacc: right :)
<rbasak> nacc: though it would be fairly independent in a usd-get-orig script easily enough
<nacc> rbasak: yep, i think i'm going to push this into one of our python libs
<nacc> rbasak: the code is reorged quite a bit now to support the veraious tools all being in python, hopefully
<nacc> and pulling in whatever dep they need
<rbasak> nacc: great!
<rbasak> nacc: thank you for all your work on this
<nacc> i can probably get a usd-build done today, that at least does the common stuff correctly, from HEAD
<nacc> rbasak: we also need to sit down for UOS, probably? maybe after the team meeting thursday?
<rbasak> Yes, we should.
<rbasak> One caveat with my algorithm above: will it be reasonably quick or dog slow?
<rbasak> (to walk LP spph)?
<nacc> well, it'd be slower than following the tags, but that's ok; and in *most* cases, I think it would only be going a few publishes back
<nacc> that's kind of why i thought following tags would be better -- as we'd find the 'nearest' publish faster
<nacc> we could then santiy check that version, to be sure
<nacc> but that would then miss the case of pushing a new upstream in an SRU
<nacc> rare though it might be
<stgraber> cd/win 54
<stgraber> oops
<rbasak> 54
<rbasak> heh
<nacc> rbasak: actually, question on 2), there's no way to go from an upstream version to an orig tarball afaict
<nacc> rbasak: no canonical way, i mean
<rbasak> nacc: you're not getting an orig tarball, not for step 2. Just determining the upstream version number.
<rbasak> Or am I answering the wrong question?
<nacc> rbasak: right, err, 3) then
<nacc> rbasak: how do i go from purely an upstream version to something to lookup in the cache?
<nacc> rbasak: and/or something to download
<nacc> rbasak: i think 3) may also what doesn't work with multiple origs?
<nacc> rbasak: ah maybe i can do this:
<rbasak> Ah, I hadn't thought of that.
<nacc> that's i think why i was getting hung up on the import tags
<nacc> or as you referred to the spph
<rbasak> But you could structure the cache to have <srcpkg>/<version>/ directories, where the files inside are named matching the orig tarballs exactly
<nacc> yes
<nacc> that's a good point
<rbasak> Where <version> is the upstream version only, not the package version.
<nacc> right
<nacc> rbasak: let's say someone acidentally deleted one file in the cache of two orig tarballs (certainly possible). We would actually need to know which orig tarballs we expect to find in there, right? so we know if we can use the cache?
<rbasak> Good point. Maybe leave a "MANIFEST" or similar file in there? Or indeed the .dsc if you have it?
<nacc> yeah, i think we should keep the .dsc file around to know hwat is there
<rbasak> I accept that your questions are demonstrating how this isn't as simple as I first thought :)
<nacc> yeah :)
<nacc> there are corner cases either way
<rbasak> At the moment I still favour this over pristine-tar I think though
<nacc> understood
<nacc> rbasak: is there a flag to dpkg-buildpackage (i guess to dpkg-source?) to use tarballs from arbitrary locations?
<rbasak> Not that I know about, sorry.
<rbasak> Would a placing a symlink work?
<nacc> rbasak: probably, in ../ ?
<nacc> rbasak: i think that's where dpkg-buildpackage ends up looking, right?
<rbasak> nacc: right
<rbasak> And I think developers won't be surprised to find a symlink there.
<rbasak> Or at least they'd find it reasonable.
<rbasak> The only surprise might be to find that the symlink breaks if the git directory is deleted.
<rbasak> But I think that's OK - it's entirely recoverable.
<nacc> rbasak: right
<xnox> 1953. By Iain Lane 6 hours ago
<xnox> Merge xnox's branch to sign with the 4K key for current releases
<xnox> horum, i see my commit on launchpad now
<xnox> Laney, somehow there is still one commit outstanding from my branch =/ the use full fingerprint
<xnox> and i did split channel thing by accident.
<sarnold> re: autoimporter, could someone take a stab at otto's question? https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1638125 thanks
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638125 in mariadb-5.5 (Ubuntu) "USN-3109-1: MySQL vulnerabilities partially applies to MariaDB too" [Medium,New]
<rbasak> sarnold: done
<sarnold> rbasak: thanks!
<sarnold> rbasak: hah :) very nice value-per-byte :)
 * mwhudson wonders if the snapd autopkgtest just needs some zesty upload to ppa:snappy-dev/image
#ubuntu-devel 2016-11-02
<smoser> nacc, ugh.
<smoser> 11/01/2016 15:18:41 - DEBUG:Setting importer/ubuntu/devel branch to 'importer/ubuntu/breezy' (6de0c9f7d926b4c1f434bf5508eaeb675c29fea8)
<smoser> looks like something amuck
<smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/23413992/
<nacc> smoser: um, shouldn't you have reversed the list?
<nacc> smoser: quick debug shows zesty is the last entry
<nacc> smoser: feel free to fix and push yourself
<smoser> apparently yes
<smoser> i swear i looked at that
<nacc> smoser: need to walk the dogs :)
<smoser> :-(
<nacc> well, you're explicitly sorting on version by number
<nacc> so that will come through in ascending order, aiui
<smoser> yeah.
<nacc> and then needs to be reversed for the names
<nacc> i would do that in the caller, though
<smoser> can i push that ?
<nacc> in case the API is useful on its own later
<nacc> you should have write access to the importer tree, yeah
<smoser> ok.
<nacc> smoser: yeah, you're in the ownership group
<smoser> nacc, pushed the most simple fix for now
<nacc> smoser: thanks!
<smoser> your idea was not bad, but required more code change than i wanted right now
<cpaelzer> daylight savings sucks, a.k.a. too early good morning :-)
<Unit193> +1 to the former.
<cpaelzer> hi, does forgetting (my bad) to include the orig tgz on a merge dput qualify to use dput --force after rebuilding with -sa (no need for an ..ubuntu2 for that right)?
<cpaelzer> last cycle my merges were all uploaded by others, since I got permissions I only had fixes so I missed to add the orig tarball to the upload
<cpaelzer> easy to fix, but I'd at least hear one person say "yes dput force is ok in that case"
<RAOF> cpaelzer: dput --force is, AFAIK always fine - launchpad will just reject your upload if its not.
<cpaelzer> RAOF: I thought that it'd be ok, but on any --force I'm shy using it the first time :-)
<cpaelzer> RAOF: thanks
<RAOF> Yup, better to be sure!
<RAOF> For us, --force only disables local checks. We don't have the access DDs have to the submitting filesystem, so we can't use things like dcut (and we don't have to be as careful âº)
<cpaelzer> I'm good with less power to screw things up atm :-)
<LocutusOfBorg> hi pitti can you please run xapian-core libsearch-xapian-perl testsuite against -proposed pocket?
<sil2100> pitti: hey! I'm trying to get the new dbus package pushed through -proposed since over a week, but I see that there's still a lot of tests that are 'Test in progress' since that time and not really getting executed
<seb128> mardy, they, that signon-ui bug you just commented on, did you see that Lan_ey already added debug logs in previous comments?
<mardy> seb128: ouch, indeed
<mardy> seb128: and actually the problem this guy is reporting is slightly different...
<Laney> mardy: I'm having that bug again atm as it happens
<Laney> I've just been minimising the window though
<Laney> if you close it it just comes back
<mardy> Laney: seems like I forgot some check when migrating signon-ui from webkit to oxide, I'll fix that
<Laney> phew, thanks
<cpaelzer> rbasak: for our discussion on passing through proposed and the binary dependency becoming uninstallable
<cpaelzer> rbasak: is the ordering of uploads strict so that I can upload the dependent one right away?
<cpaelzer> rbasak: or do I have to wait until it shows up in update-execuses
<cpaelzer> I want to avoid it gets rebuild too early
<cpaelzer> and by that misses to pick up the new abi
<rbasak> cpaelzer: you either need to wait until the binaries are published in the proposed pocket, or the build depends needs to be versioned.
<rbasak> We don't usually used versioned depends for this kind of thing, so I guess then ordering matters.
<cpaelzer> rbasak: yeah it is only versioned in the sense that it depend on a virtual ABI package, but that only gets there once the former is build
<cpaelzer> s/build/built/
<cpaelzer> rbasak: thanks - so I'm gonna wait with the follow up dput until it shows up
<rbasak> ack
<doko> zul: monasca-statsd has a copyright owner not mentioned: Copyright (c) 2012, Datadog <info@datadoghq.com>
<doko> zul: you also only packaged the python2 libs, not the python3 ones ...
<pitti> sil2100: sprint, no IRC time -- is it queued? http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running is full
<sil2100> pitti: didn't check, but even if - is it possible those are *still* queued after 11 days of waiting?
<pitti> sil2100: oh, no; then they were probably victim of some cleanup/bug
<pitti> sil2100: requeueing them now, but it'll take some time to catch up with the queue
<sil2100> Thanks! :)
<pitti> sil2100: not the "always failed" ones as they aren't blocking/relevant
 * pitti off again
<GunnarHj> pitti: Hi Martin! When there are .mo files for a textdomain in both /usr/share/locale and /usr/share/locale-langpack, gettext seems to use the former. Shouldn't the one in /usr/share/locale-langpack have precedence? The reason for to my question is apt, more precisely comment #7 in bug #1637801.
<ubottu> bug 1637801 in gettext (Ubuntu) "Incorrect Russian translation of "apt list --upgradeable" results" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1637801
<zul> doko: thats because there isnt any python3 support for it yet
<rbasak> cyphermox: would you mind handling bug 1629644 please? It's a (rather late) claimed regression in your SRU of 0.4.9-3ubuntu7.5.
<ubottu> bug 1629644 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu) "Trusty: failure to detect device with 0.4.9-3ubuntu7.5" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1629644
<rbasak> powersj: FYI, bug 1635929 is a dupe - I've marked it. Downgrading from MariaDB 10.0 to MySQL anything is broken.
<ubottu> bug 1490071 in mysql-5.7 (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1635929 MySQL 5.6 refuses to install on systems that have had MariaDB 10.0 installed, preventing users from reverting to MySQL without manual intervention (aka mysql flag file system needs a redesign)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1490071
<rbasak> (not supported upstream)
<doko> Mirv: I promoted llvm-toolchain-3.9. please do the next mesa update using this version
<rbasak> cyphermox: also I'd appreciate some help triaging bug 1636145 please.
<ubottu> bug 1636145 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu) "multipath: Unrecognised multipath feature request" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1636145
<doko> jbicha: are you going to look at the pcre3/pcre2 transition then?
<jbicha> doko: I think that's beyond my abilities as I don't think Debian or the upstreams are trying to make that transition now
<doko> urgh
<jbicha> and the list of affected packages is extensive
<Mirv> doko: tjaalton will be happy to do so
<doko> ahh, again the wrong T.
<powersj> rbasak: thank you
<tjaalton> doko: sure thing, once mesa 13 is ready
<tjaalton> turns out 12 wasn't too happy with 3.9
<tjaalton> at least some games aren't
<cyphermox> rbasak: done, thanks.
<mardy> Laney: hi! When you have some time, can you please try https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/2135 and see if it fixes the issue?
 * cyphermox goes back to the salt mines (network at Plumbers has been terrible, not sure if it will be any better today)
<rbasak> cyphermox: thank you!
<caribou> Is there any reason why there is no warning of the fact that "atp-get upgrade" is running when the user decides to turn off the computer (using the GUI) ?
<rbasak> slangasek: any opinion on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/squid3/+bug/1613914/comments/4 please? Amos is upstream and active in Debian packaging of squid now too. His opinion contradicts your upload in 3.5.12-1ubuntu4 I think.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1613914 in squid3 (Ubuntu) "squid upgrade fails when user has custom cache_dir" [High,Confirmed]
<cpaelzer> caribou: not technically I gues seeing this http://askubuntu.com/questions/771227/how-can-i-get-a-warning-before-restart-shutdown - while clearly it needs tests/polishing it seems to be able to do what you want
<caribou> cpaelzer: ok, I'll check this one out
<caribou> cpaelzer: this situation hosed my wife's laptop : it would not reboot and got a kernel panic on each reobot
<caribou> s/reobot/reboot/
<cpaelzer> caribou: there are different suggestions on http://askubuntu.com/questions/702156/prevent-ubuntu-from-shutdown-before-background-automatic-updates-complete
<cpaelzer> caribou: an adaption of the case I linked before for apt/update-manager and such
<cpaelzer> caribou: I sometimes wonder if it is destiny that such things always hit family members of developers of if there are more out there
<Laney> mardy: OK, it'll have to be tomorrow though because I'm not at that computer right now
<caribou> cpaelzer: I got the _notorious_ cellphone picture of a kernel backtrace as a bug report :)
<rbasak> I wonder if that's a consequence of unattended-upgrades being enabled by default.
<caribou> rbasak: not in my case, landscape was running the upgrade
<rbasak> Prior to that, update-manager (or whatever the GUI stuff is) fired up, and at that stage it was obvious.
<rbasak> Ah
<caribou> rbasak: so maybe landscape triggers a different behavior
<caribou> (I had forced a landscape upgrade to *fix* the DirtyCOW issue)
<rbasak> caribou: I feel there should be a bug somewhere for this. This kind of race is pretty bad for users.
<caribou> rbasak: indeed
<caribou> rbasak: the kernel backtrace was pointing to a missing superblock so it looked more like a dead HDD than just a failed kernel upgrade
<doko> Laney, seb128: what's the future of ubuntu-kylin-software-center?
<Laney> Ask the Kylin team
<seb128> what Laney said
<doko> hmm, who is this?
<nacc> smoser: apport went from 13404 to 14636 KB by adding pristine-tar and upstream branches
<nacc> rbasak: --^
<smoser> how many tarballs is that
<nacc> smoser: 122
<smoser> and do you have a branch that i can try ?
<nacc> smoser: i think i sent it to you yesterday?
<nacc> one sec
<rbasak> nacc: I think what I dislike about that approach is that it adds state (the pristine-tar branches themselves). If we decided we wanted to change how it's done, we'd be in a pickle because a simple update to the tool might not be enough - we'd have to modify the state too. OTOH, grabbing it from Launchpad on the fly involves no additional state.
<nacc> smoser: https://code.launchpad.net/~nacc/usd-importer/+git/usd-importer/+ref/orig_tarball
<nacc> rbasak: absolutely, i understand, smoser just asked for the data
<nacc> rbasak: the biggest advantage, as i see it, is that it follows debian
<smoser> i dont follow your comment
<smoser> "we'd have to modify the state too".
<nacc> rbasak: and it's really not trivial to go from a an arbitrary srcpkg and (upstream) version to a tarball
<nacc> rbasak: doable, but not trivial :)
<smoser> if we decided the pristine tarballs are not useful, then we can delete them from the git repositories and git gc and change tools to not use them.
<rbasak> Debian isn't married to pristine-tar though. It's just one of the dozen ways they do it.
<smoser> (note, i'm pretty sure we can arbitrarily *add* the pristine tarballs at any point also, and not affect any thing)
<smoser> other than size
<nacc> smoser: sort of -- it would need a different implemetnation to go back to the beginning of time for one branch
<nacc> smoser: but theoretically possible, yes :)
<Laney> doko: #ubuntukylin-devel AFAIK
<nacc> rbasak: yeah, I understand -- again, not suggesting it to merge even
<nacc> rbasak: just that it's there, and does seem to work
<smoser> rbasak, can you explain further what you dont like ? we'd not be "married" to it in any way either.
<rbasak> smoser: it feels brittle to me to rely on it in the tooling. I don't particularly object to having pristine-tar branches in the imported tree however.
<rbasak> smoser: brittle in the sense that it is imported in a particular way (the choice of pristine-tar, the format/version pristine-tar is using, the format/version of the tarballs and compression, etc) and then tooling must stick to that. OTOH, doing it afterwards from Launchpad involves none of that, and can be changed much more easily later.
<nacc> rbasak: i'd never rely on it; if it's there, i'd use it and probably double-check the hashes match against a known good dsc
<nacc> rbasak: and i'd fall back to a cache
<rbasak> I accept that in practice it is said that this hasn't yet been an issue with pristine-tar in particular. However, there's still a possibility, and there is none with a state-free system.
<nacc> or v.v.
<smoser> theres not any real need to double check hashes
<smoser> launchpad wont let you upload the bad one
<nacc> smoser: there is if you can usd-build from any directory
<nacc> smoser: remember, pathological :)
<smoser> i dont follow
<smoser> there is a difference from the hash being different
<smoser> and the tarball contents being different
<rbasak> I guess I mainly don't understand any real world practical benefit to doing it with pristine-tar over a direct method. If there is, then that's fine, and I still have no objection to the branch being there.
<smoser> no reliance on network is the benefit
<nacc> smoser: the uploads will get rejected, yes
<smoser> also i guess with prisitne tar baranch we probably get upstream/ tags also
<nacc> smoser: so in effect it's the same; but i'd like to detect badness of that type earlier
<smoser> which is a benefit
<nacc> smoser: yes, we do
<smoser> as without that, you coudlnt even create the orig tarball if you wanted.
<smoser> well, not trivially anyway.
<nacc> smoser: without the upstream tags?
<smoser> where as with the tag, if you didnt' care about the tar hash matching, you can 'git archive'
<rbasak> smoser: no reliance on the network? You need to clone the git repo. Have usd-clone grab the orig as well if you like.
<smoser> those two events are likely hours apart
<nacc> so there needs to be network at some point
<nacc> certainly at clone
<nacc> i think smoser is saying there doesn't need to be at build as well
<nacc> i still think this is not a typical use-case :)
<rbasak> Right, but if the orig is grabbed at clone time, then it's available.
<nacc> *what* orig, though
<smoser> sure... and just for fun, you'll grab all orig tarballs :)
<nacc> we don't know what is about to be built at clone time
<rbasak> And if he wants all available orig tarballs from pristine-tar because then it's cloned, then fair enough, but no need for our tooling to do it that way by default - it's a separate use case.
<nacc> i did ask for a bug :)
<nacc> rbasak: there isn't a case where an orig tarball gets *added* to a package and the upstream version is the same? if we were to do that in an ubuntu package, i think the cache doesn't work -- also how does that work in practice (what tells dpkg-buildpackage there is a second orig tarball to use)?
<rbasak> That's a good question. If it were up to me, I wouldn't permit that. But I don't know what Debian/Launchpad do.
 * rbasak wonders if cjwatson might know ^
<nacc> rbasak: ack, just working on usd-build and gets all these kinds of questions :)
<nacc> cjwatson: or, generally, if you have some advice on the 'best way' to work from an arbitrary source pacakge directory to the orig tarballs needed to build that package
<nacc> rbasak: ah, it seems it looks for .orig-component.tar.ext
<nacc> where component is a well defined regex
<nacc> and is used to name the subdir
<nacc> rbasak: but given only an unpacked source pacakge, i see no way of determing that :/
<nacc> and i've forgotten how to type, clearly too :)
<nacc> rbasak: let's assume it's not allowed for now
<rbasak> OK
<nacc> as it's giving me a headache too early in the morning :)
<ashcell> Hello everyone and appdevs, I am currently working on the Telegram app but I am having some trouble getting an executable when building the latest (https://code.launchpad.net/~libqtelegram-team/telegram-app/telegram). It builds fine on 16.04 but on 16.10 I keep getting "../telegram-app/build_desktop/libâ: No such file or directory". Has anyone else come across anything similar on any of your apps? Any help would be appreciated.
<smoser> nacc, http://paste.ubuntu.com/23416635/
<smoser> that is the whole list of 'server-cares' (minus ruby, which i just removed, and 'linux', which i feel like just special casing out)
<nacc> smoser: awesome! can you file bugs for the ones that are not DownloadErrors (and maybe one bug for the DownloadErrors)?
<bdmurray> juliank: Could you have a look at bug 1592817?
<ubottu> bug 1592817 in python-apt (Ubuntu) "gdebi-gtk crashed with ValueError in update_interface(): could not convert string to float: '0,0000'" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1592817
<juliank> aargh, not one of those
<juliank> I assume it's one of our all time favourite string formatting bugs in apt
<juliank> bdmurray: That should be fixed in a reasonably current apt, but that user still runs an apt from early june
<bdmurray> juliank: could you be more specific about reasonably current?
<nacc> smoser: thanks! i'm guessing that LP: #1638614 is me assuming i can extract authorship correctly and not handling when that fails
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638614 in usd-importer "linux-base, module-init-tools fail import: AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'group'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638614
<nacc> smoser: LP: #1638612 is going to need a parent overrides, i think
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638612 in usd-importer "golang-golang-x-net-dev fails import: AssertionError source pkg version != changelog version" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638612
<nacc> smoser: as it's published incredibly poorly :)
<nacc> smoser: that particular publish implies an epoch change, which wasn't done
<bdmurray> juliank: I seem some with 1.2.14 which is in xenial-proposed.
<juliank> No, there were fixes all the time. But the one that was actually released in 16.10 should probably be fine. I'll look at the code now, but there were a lot of fixes in later 1.3 releases.
<smoser> nacc, i'm just the messenger :)
<juliank> bdmurray: It should not happen at all in 1.2
<nacc> smoser: ack, mostly just notes to myself
<juliank> Unless you set the locale with C++ functions
<smoser> yeah
<smoser> i filed all those failures
<bdmurray> juliank: here's an example - https://errors.ubuntu.com/oops/752e2da8-a0f3-11e6-8735-fa163e839e11
<juliank> bdmurray: The bug in question should be a duplicate of bug 1611010 - that fixed the problem
<ubottu> bug 1611010 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Xenial) "yakkety desktop - non-english installation crashes with /plugininstall.py: ValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 10: ''" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611010
<juliank> Or well, the commit fixing that bug also fixed the other one
<bdmurray> juliank: so its fixed in yakkety, but not xenial then.
<juliank> bdmurray: I can't see the xenial instance, but I specifically did not merge any of that stuff because it only happens if your app calls std::locale::global
<juliank> Which we switched apt to at some point in the 1.3 series from setlocale()
<juliank> (WRT can't see: I just filed a request for access to the error tracker, but that needs manual approval)
<bdmurray> juliank: there you've been approved
<juliank> Thanks
<juliank> This is kind of weird that this happens
<bdmurray> It also happens w/ the release upgrader - bug 1633219
<ubottu> bug 1633219 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Upgrade to yakkety fails due to non-us locale" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1633219
<juliank> bdmurray: Ah I might have been confused a bit when doing the later 1.2 releases, I actually cherry-picked the first "prevent C++ locale formatting" commit.
<juliank> So, I'll take a look if I can cherry-pick that into 1.2.y for xenial
<juliank> That said, we still need to get 1.2.15 in first :/
<bdmurray> juliank: that'd be great.  Do you mean 1.2.14 which is in -proposed or something newer?
<juliank> bdmurray: 1.2.14 has been superseded by 1.2.15 in the queue
<bdmurray> Oh, I can help with that too
<jbicha> could we get a rebuild of devscripts so that zesty is default instead of yakkety?
<juliank> bdmurray: That would be great. Once we have 1.2.15 in (which accumulates 4 months or so of bug fixes :/) we will start seeing smaller (hopefully) monthly updates.
<juliank> 1.2.15 was far too large, but I never managed to upload the individual bug fix releases corresponding to the 1.3 preview releases (it really should have been 4 releases or something)
<juliank> bdmurray: I think I got all the patches in https://github.com/julian-klode/apt/compare/1.2.y...julian-klode:for-1.2/locale?expand=1 - Now I'm waiting for travis to check if it actually compiles and passes tests ...
<juliank> If it does, I'll build a 1.2.16~rc1 source package or something and put it in the apt 1.2 PPA for testing.
<juliank> Hmm, that requires more work: It does not find std::put_time()
<juliank> Probably missed the include from another commit :/
<juliank> gtg now, but will be online again in approx 30 mins
<juliank> bdmurray: Do we still want to do some upgrade tests with apt 1.2.15 on desktop, or is one month without hiccups on (small) server OK?
<juliank> If anyone has not upgraded xenial in a while, now (= soon) is the time to install 1.2.15 from proposed and check that it works for you too :)
<smoser> nacc,
<smoser> 11/02/2016 17:19:31 - DEBUG:stderr: gbp:error: Upstream tag 'upstream/0.1.0_bzr54' already exists
<nacc> smoser: using my branch?
<smoser> sort of.
<smoser> some local cchanges, but i dont think related
<juliank> Otherwise, I'll give the build another week on my server and then go to verification-done (then we basically have 5 weeks of unattended upgrades not messing things up) :)
<nacc> smoser: it should only try to tag an upstream (import it at all) if the tag doesn't already exist)
<nacc> smoser:         if (orig_tarball and
<nacc>             self.get_tag_reference(upstream_tag_name) is None
<nacc>            ):
<nacc> smoser: ah, is it possible your upstream version doesn't comply with debian?
<nacc> smoser: is it an ubuntu only package
<smoser> well, this was curtin
<smoser> basically upstream snapshots
<smoser> no actual upstream releases
<nacc> ah ah
<nacc> gbp turns ~ to _
<nacc> we don't
<nacc> for that particular check
<nacc> smoser: change that upstream_tag_name assignment to
<nacc> upstream_tag_name = USDGitRepository.git_dsc_commit_tag('upstream/%s' % srcpkg.version.upstream_version)
<nacc> or so
<nacc> smoser: fyi, usd-clone is incompatible with xgit
<nacc> not sure why yet
<nacc> smoser: rbasak: http://paste.ubuntu.com/23417200/
<nacc> smoser: i don't think it makes sense to use a cache like MP: #309876 does for the importer, if the builder has a cache
<nacc> smoser: i'm not sure what problem the importer cache solves
<nacc> regular users will never run the importer, ideally
<smoser> nacc, if your argument is "regular users will never use it, so remove it". then we can just delete the whole thing ?
<nacc> smoser: delete what whole thing?
<smoser> usd-importer.
<smoser> as regular users wont use it.
<nacc> smoser: i think you're being a bit ridiclous
<nacc> there are two use cases
<smoser> yes.
<nacc> one is the server team maintaining git repositories
<nacc> that's the importer's job
<nacc> nothign else
<nacc> the other is building pacakges using those repositories
<smoser> when working with the importer, having the cache of downloaded things is quite useful.
<nacc> that is *not* the importer's job
<smoser> and your pristine-tar branch changed the behavior from caching into the output directory to downloading into a tmpdir
<nacc> smoser: why does your commit mention git and gitwd not existing? they are still present
<nacc> smoser: that's not merged
<nacc> and currently won't be
<smoser> sure.
<smoser> thats fine.
<smoser> its an option, just like '--lp-user'
<nacc> it doesn't make sense to send a MR against master
<nacc> when it doesn't apply to master
<smoser> which , running on infrastructure would never be needed.
<smoser> it does still apply to  master.
<smoser> its still quite useful
<nacc> the commit message is wrong
<nacc> it refers to things that aren't true in master
<smoser> it makes my re-run using your branch take substantially less time, and saves 51G of download
<smoser> the commit message is correct...
<smoser> what did you think was not ?
<nacc> previously get with the pkg/git/ and pkg/gitwd/
<nacc> that is *not* true in master
<smoser> sure.. previously, before this commit
<nacc> what?
<smoser> before the --dl-cache commit, downloads went into pkg/
<smoser> and then there was a pkg/git and pkg/gitwd
<smoser> that is true.
<smoser> right?
<smoser> and the change is to instead put them to a tempdir or to the --dl-cache dir
<nacc> ok, my reading of your commit message is that it suggest there was a change of behavior that you're fixing
<nacc> when in fact, you're changing behavior
<nacc> it could be *way* clearer :)
<nacc> I still don't think a download cache matters *except* for your tests of importing the world
<smoser> even importing a single package
<smoser> it does. if it fails for some reason.
<nacc> master still uses pkg/git and pkg/gitwd, so it'ss till cached in pkg
<smoser> firefox or linux for example, are multi-multi-gig downloads
<nacc> i think what you're actually doing is suggesting an alternative implementation to what is done in my branch?
<smoser> if you have access to dsc files and orig tarballs, put them in a dir and point the thing at it.
<smoser> well, due to a change in your branch, i was forced to do *something*
<nacc> a branch that is *NOT MASTER* :)
<smoser> but what i was doing before was linking these files into the <pkg>/ dir so they'd get used.
<nacc> and you are asking to merge to master
<smoser> which was much less clean than this
<smoser> so this solves cleanly for both cases.
<nacc> but is wholly unnecessary in master as it is right now, afaict
<smoser> sort of. sort of not.
<nacc> yes, that's why i think your commit message is wrong :)
<smoser> currently, the directory cannot exist
<nacc> you have a good point, just put it in the commit message
<smoser> or if it does, it must have git and gitwd/
<nacc> smoser: do you get my point, though? you have two reasons to include this into master, one of which has nothing to do with master itself, but a hypothetical change to the code
<nacc> what's interesting is this download cache can't be used by usd-build as currently written, because usd-build's cache is organized
<nacc> might not be a big deal
<nacc> and, afaict, this only really impacts the importer side, when starting from an empty repository, which will be a rarity
<nacc> relative rarity
<nacc> and doesn't help the actual empty repository case either, right?
<smoser> usd-build's cache is organized ?
<smoser> what does that mean ?
<nacc> smoser: to make it actually usable (as i need to konw the tarballs in there are good, I also need dsc files, etc.), so we have it organized as .git/build_cache/<srcpkg>/<upstream version>/
<nacc> so I can go find the DSC file in there and see if the hashes of the tarballs match (or if they are even present)
<smoser> nacc, http://paste.ubuntu.com/23417260/
<smoser> oh. i see.
<nacc> smoser: that's way better, thank you very much
<smoser> upstream_version does not seem terribly important there i donthink.
<smoser> i think i convinced my self that we need to not do the tmpdir. but by default make it point to the --directory
<nacc> smoser: then you won't be able to clean it up, right?
<smoser> who is "you" in this scenario ?
<smoser> oh. right. yeah. would not cleanup then.
<nacc> smoser: the importer, without a dl-cache argument
<smoser> which is current behavior
<nacc> smoser: which is the default and expected use case
<nacc> right, but i'd like to be able to clean it up, if possible
<nacc> i think switching to directory would make it impossible?
<smoser> tmpdir=$(mktemp -d); usd-import --dl-cache=tmpdir
<smoser> ro
<smoser> TMPDIR=pkg.d/dldir usd-import --directory=pkg.d pkg
<nacc> smoser: if i don't use upstream_version there, then i have to store the .dsc file in upstream_version.dsc (or do filename munging) -- doesn't seem better
<nacc> smoser: 'have to' becuase i need to cache the canonical sums for the tarballs somehow
<nacc> smoser: i'm not sure i fully understand (given just master), anymore, the usecase for an importer cache. That is, right now, let's say you run the importer on a directroy and pass --no-clean. Then you run it again on the same directory later, it will just pickup where it stopped. So your case is switching directories but minimizing the files to use?
<nacc> *to download
<smoser> well, that is a use case.
<smoser> but as it is right now, if you pass --no-clean
<smoser> and you then change the importer and want to use again to do a from scratch
<smoser> you: rm -Rf <directory>/git*
<smoser> and it says "that dir isnt empty"
<nacc> rm says that?
<nacc> oh you mean if you try to reuse directory iwth the importer
<nacc> because the files are there?
<nacc> yes, i assume that any sane person doing from scratch imports will
<nacc> rm -rf <directory>; mdkir <directory>
<nacc> *mkdir
<nacc> or will use a reasonable directory (previously imported)
<nacc> that's why we have the sanity check
<nacc> again, this feels like an optimization for 'from scratch' imports
<nacc> which i know are annoying because you're doing so many
<nacc> but not really a general use
<nacc> i mean, obviously, *the* general use -- but not for everyone
<nacc> rbasak: one flaw (security?) with the cached DSC model -- what if a pathological user chagnes that file. They will have write access to it. Upload will get rejected (afaict), but it will still succesfully build. I think that's why I was suggesting we always at least pull down the dsc from LP to verify the tarballs against?
<nacc> at which point we could drop <srcpkg>/<upstream version> altogether, I think
<nacc> smoser: and then, if we used that for the cache by default, you'd get your sharing in the importer too; you'd just have to save off the cache before deleting .git
<smoser> nacc, i pushed up a different version.
<smoser> which i think is generally better, and as is right now cleaner. but i thin it will still complain on --directory= re-use.
<nacc> smoser: same MP?
<smoser> yeah
<nacc> hrm, says updated 1 hour ago
<nacc> https://code.launchpad.net/~smoser/usd-importer/+git/usd-importer/+ref/download-cache ?
<smoser> yeah
<smoser> taht 1 hour ago is just wrong
<smoser> its reading the commit time
<smoser> and commit --amend doesnt update that
<nacc> hrm, i don't see any changes from the last MP?
<smoser> its definitely different read the commit message
<nacc> oh i see it now, sorry
<nacc> smoser: do you have any problem with me switching that to .git/cache or something?
<nacc> smoser: *if* we drop git/ gitwd/
<smoser> i dont have a problem with that no.
<nacc> ok, i think your MP is good, I'll rebase my changes on top
<smoser> nacc, using your branch and that change, i'm currently at
<smoser> $ ../summarize
<smoser> 47 total. 16 working. 31 pass. 0 fail.
<nacc> smoser: the import-orig branch?
<nacc> smoser: import-orig shouldn't have any functional change to the importer, really
<smoser> well, ih ave cherry picked your one commit and then the fix for the tag thing
<smoser> nacc, yeah, except a.) it creates new branches b.) it had a bug that we hit
<smoser> but other than that, yeah, no changes ;)
<nacc> smoser: i mean to the algorithm
<nacc> so if something imported before it should import now
<nacc> and if something didn't import before it should not import now
<nacc> the importer algorithm doesn't use the pristine-tar branch for anything
<smoser> outside of having bugs in your newly added logic, yes.
<smoser> or bugs in interaction with pristine-tar
<nacc> so this is just a sanity check run?
<smoser> yeah.
<nacc> ok :)
<nacc> i need you and rbasak to continue to come to some consensus on whether it's necessary or not :)
<smoser> oh, yeah, and the other thing... i would like to get a large set of numbers too
<nacc> right, i only ran it on one package
<smoser> we'll have data we can easily see how much size it adds
<nacc> yep
<smoser> can you write down how to remove the upstream/tarball stuff ?
<smoser> and git-gc
<smoser> so easy compare
<smoser> like:
<smoser>  git clone <original> new
<smoser>  cd new
<smoser>  git branch -D upstream
<smoser>  git branch -D pristine-tarball
<smoser>  git gc
<smoser> i think its something like that
<nacc> to make sure i didn't break anything, i did a master import and an branch import, so i could also check the objects
<nacc> that *should* work
<nacc> smoser: there is a way with to find object sizes with git-cat-file
<nacc> smoser: not sure if that would do what you want
<nacc> smoser: i'm going to grab lunch, i'll merge your changes and stage up the build changes after, and then look at fixing the bugs
<smoser> so git clone <somedir>
<smoser> cd newdir
<smoser> git branch shows nothing
<smoser> git branch -r shows stuff
<smoser> but how do i tell my local repo i dont care about origin/pristine-tar
<smoser> which is not a local branch
<nacc> smoser: i think you need maybe --disassociate and then you can delete the branche in the new
<nacc> smoser: rather than doing what you're doing, you could just create a new directory
<nacc> cp git over
<nacc> and do stuff in the new directory
<nacc> the git repository is fully encapsulated in that dir
<smoser> sure. which is basically what git clone does :)
<nacc> yeah, but it uses tracking branches
<nacc> smoser: ah you wanted to use --mirror, i think
<slangasek> rbasak: I don't agree that we shouldn't migrate the directory; but maybe we should do that migration in postinst instead of preinst, and skip that migration if there's a non-default cache_dir setting?
<rbasak> slangasek: thanks. I've stuck it in our backlog to look into it.
<rbasak> nacc: wouldn't such a user just be shooting himself in the foot in that case? I think that's acceptable.
<nacc> rbasak: yes, they would -- we do safety checks everywhere else and we rely on trusting only launchpad
<nacc> rbasak: in that case, we're trusting a local file
<nacc> rbasak: when we do have lp available
<nacc> rbasak: but i understand your point, was just a thought
<nacc> smoser: so the way i do from-scratch imports, if you need them, is '-o junk'
<nacc> smoser: not sure why that's not trivial?
<nacc> smoser: um, did you mean to pass workdir to func() in USDSourceInformation?
<nacc> smoser: so ... you tested this how?
<nacc> smoser: pushed up the usd-build changes, you'll need to rebase that MR and i'm not sure it's really necessary
<rbasak> nacc, smoser: we could do a hangout on this tomorrow if you like?
<nacc> rbasak: ack, would be good
<nacc> rbasak: if you have time pull master and check out usd-build
<nacc> or the paste i pointed to earlier
<rbasak> OK, I'll take a look in the morning
<nacc> rbasak: ack
<nacc> thanks!
<hammed> can soneone give me format to get itune card , gift and circle from maga
<nacc> hammed: ECHAN?
<hammed> <hammed> ./start 201
<hammed> <hammed> # DUHul
<hammed> <hammed> ./start: line 11: ./ss: cannot execute binary file: Exec format error
<hammed> <hammed> cat: bios.txt: No such file or directory
<hammed> <hammed> # found 0
<hammed> <hammed> ----------------------------------------
<hammed> tell me what to do to make this work
<nacc> hammed: this is the channel for ubuntu development, I think you're in the wrong place
<nacc> hammed: maybe you want #ubuntu, but even there seems offtopic
<hammed> k
<sarnold> "exec format error" sounds like a mismatched architecture; like you've got an x86 binary but are running on arm or something
<nacc> smoser: fyi, there is an active ubuntu branch for libvirt (it's now listed in Vcs-Git, iirc) for ubuntu; i do not believe we should import it
<nacc> smoser: pcre3's failure is different than iscsitarget's
<nacc> 'import/8.30..-2'
<nacc> man git-check-ref-name: 3. They cannot have two consecutive dots ..  anywhere.
<nacc> slangasek: is there an appropriate ML to ask for debian developer's opinion on an addition to dep14 for '..' ?
<nacc> *developers'
<nacc> lol, so is for real (i have been looking at a lot of changelogs today). dpkg-parsechangelog thinks May is an invalid month?
<nacc>             if (exists $month_name{$8})
<nacc> push @errors, sprintf(g_('uses full instead of abbreviated month name \'%s\''),
#ubuntu-devel 2016-11-03
<nacc> ha nm, it's a bug in the perl
<nacc> sigh
<nacc> can anyone see why dpkg-parsechangelog says this is an invalid date?
<nacc> Tue, 17 May 2008 10:93:55 -0500
<nacc> lol, just saw it
<nacc> 10:93
<nacc> i wonder how that happened? fat-fingered a manual changelog edit?
<nacc> smoser: --^ so we could do a parent override for that too
<smoser> nacc, shoot. i must have looked at those wrong. sorry. the pcre3 and iscsitarget.
<smoser> ohwell
<nacc> smoser: it's fine
<nacc> the iscsitarget one is fun
<nacc> we're stripping the string we get back
<nacc> so ' <ogra@ubuntu.com>' which would parse
<nacc> gets turned into '<ogra@ubuntu.com>' which does not :)
<smoser> need to make usd <subcommand>
<nacc> smoser: yep that's on my todo for tmrw
<smoser> and convert clone to python
<nacc> yep
<nacc> i have one already going for that
<nacc> a branch i mean
<nacc> and for merge
<nacc> that's my last main coding change i konw i'd like to be done with for 1.0
<nacc> beyond these bugfxies
<smoser> the removal of dl-cache...
<nacc> hrm?
<smoser> it only gets set to true if provided on cmdline
<smoser> 57cc02fb81675a2511400ff52f4a21c2a3f1100a
<smoser> you didnt need to do that
<nacc> yes i understood
<smoser> or i dont understand.
<nacc> did you read the commit message?
<nacc> the cache by default (when not passed as an argument) is in .git
<nacc> which will get deleted presuming --no-clean is not passed
<smoser> but dl_cache is not set
<smoser> workdir is
<smoser> dl_cache will still be None
<nacc>     if dl_cache is None:
<nacc>         workdir = os.path.join(local_repo.git_dir, CACHE_PATH)
<smoser> right
<nacc> why does it matter if dl_cache is none or not?
<smoser> we do not set dl_cache
<smoser> if dl_cache:
<smoser>   remove stuff
<smoser> er..
<smoser> wait
<nacc> smoser: it's getting late here (and i've been starting at this all day), it's gotta be even later for you! :)
<nacc> smoser: yeah, i think what was there before was confusing and a change in behavior -- i think we can do it, but let's do it a distinct change, if that's ok with you
<smoser> oh. you're right. never mind.
<nacc> smoser: this way, the cache is preserved if the directory is preserved
<nacc> which i think is the most correct default
<smoser> i suppose, yeah. thats fine.
<smoser> nacc, elinks:
<smoser>  11/02/2016 23:53:51 - DEBUG:stderr: gbp:error: The orig tarball contains .git metadata - giving up.
<smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/23418680/
<smoser> and docker.io: http://paste.ubuntu.com/23418681/
<smoser> those are new failures from pristine-tar
<smoser> i'll let you go, and i'm gonna go too
<smoser> but basically, it seems to be going really well, this clean restart with the --dl-cache
<smoser> 157 total. 16 working. 139 pass. 2 fail.
<nacc> smoser: right, import-orig won't like .git-ified upstreams
<nacc> which aren't supposed to keep their .git, but some do
<nacc> smoser: let's resolve what we're going to do about the orig stuff, because i'm not going to spend time on fixing those if we're not going to merge that before 1.0
<smoser> right.
<nacc> i think either way the other bugs take priority and we'd need to add a flag like --no-pristine-tar or something
<nacc> maybe even default to that, dunno
<nacc> smoser: in any case, thanks for your patience and insight, i'm done for the day too -- talk to you tomorrow!
<smoser> you must have moved some stuff arodn for usd-build
<smoser> before you committed
<smoser> it doesn't compile right now
<smoser> but tomorrow it will
<smoser> good night
<smoser> and Go cubs Go!
<slangasek> nacc: sounds like debian-devel
<TheMuso> Ok, pulseaudio si sitting in zesty-proposed, because pulseaudio-equalizer requires packages from universe, yet it was NEWed into main. Can I do anything to help demote it to universe?
<rharper> pitti: sudo mount-image-callback -d install_disk.img chroot _MOUNTPOINT_ /bin/bash
<rharper> --system-mounts --system-resolvconf
<rharper> http://paste.ubuntu.com/23419821/
<pkern> Could someone approve the trusty bug nomination on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bash/+bug/1422795? I suspect that's why it's not shown on http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/index.html
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1422795 in bash (Ubuntu) "bash crashes often if inputrc contains revert-all-at-newline" [High,Fix released]
<hammed> ANYONER WITH CENTOS OR UBUNTU ROOT
<hammed> ANYONER WITH CENTOS OR UBUNTU ROOT
<hammed> ANYONER WITH CENTOS OR UBUNTU ROOT
<LocutusOfBorg> hammed, no spam
<hammed> ya
<hammed> i need ubuntu
<hammed> root
<sladen> hammed: type   sudo command-you-want-to-run-as-root
<sladen> hammed: (just the same as on OS X an other modern systems)
<hammeds> root
<hammeds> where
<sladen> hammed: what are you trying to do, that "needs root"?  Perhaps we can help you better, if we understand
<Laney> mardy: any chance you can build that package as an sru for yakkety too?
<mardy> Laney: I think it has to land on zesty first
<Laney> mardy: can be at the same time
<Laney> but right now I want one to test
<Laney> maybe the zesty binaries are installable
<mardy> Laney: ok, but I think you can use the xenial version then, I would expect it to work fine on yakkety
<pkern> Laney: As you had been quite helpful on the last trusty SRU I needed (thanks for that!)... Do you happen to know the best way currently to get an SRU to a package in main uploaded?
<Laney> hey pkern
<Laney> is it in the sponsor queue?
<doko> tjaalton: please could you complete the MIR  issue #1547490
<hammeds> i need just only ip user plus pass not
<pkern> Laney: I think https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bash/+bug/1422795 isn't because it needs a coredev to approve the nomination or something.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1422795 in bash (Ubuntu) "bash crashes often if inputrc contains revert-all-at-newline" [High,Fix released]
<pkern> Laney: ubuntu-sponsors is subscribed since somewhen in 2015.
<Laney> pkern: ah, could be - let me do that
<Laney> Maybe it would be a good idea to fix the queue to show bugs with pending nominations
<pkern> Laney: Thanks! I was somewhat surprised that it didn't. Or that nominations to packages in main can't be done with usual bugcontrol privs. (Which would be the other recourse here.)
<Laney> I think you have to be a "driver" for that - bug control just lets you nominate in the first place
<Laney> IIRC
<pkern> Ah, right. I think MOTUs are drivers for universe, though. (Which makes sense, so well, meh, maybe.)
<Laney> driver *or* uploader
<Laney> AIUI
<tjaalton> doko: what's missing from -libinput?
<doko> tjaalton: the MIR
<tjaalton> hmm ok
<andrewsh> hmm
<andrewsh> latest update broke some of the indicators for me
<andrewsh> https://www.dropbox.com/s/lx69qjcc25qnmnb/2016-11-03_14-00-30.png?dl=0
<dobey> andrewsh: i think you want #ubuntu instead. it's the support channel
<andrewsh> well, I don't think so
<andrewsh> I'm pretty sure I don't need support, but I need to report a bug instead
<Laney> mardy: I get the notification again instead of the webview with the package from the silo
<Laney> thanks!
<mardy> Laney: \o/
<seb128> andrewsh, if you report a bug include some useful details like the version of ubuntu you are using and what you updated and what indicators are buggy and in which way
<dobey> andrewsh: ubuntu-bug <indicator-package-name> for each indicator
<seb128> no
<dobey> that is buggy
<seb128> well, if it's an issue in the lib no point opening a bug on each indicator using it
<seb128> would be nice to describe what is buggy to start
<dobey> well the "broken" indicators look like they are application indicators anyway, not standard system indicators
<seb128> how do you know?
<seb128> he didn't even say which ones
<dobey> 09:00 < andrewsh> https://www.dropbox.com/s/lx69qjcc25qnmnb/2016-11-03_14-00-30.png?dl=0
<dobey> because of their position on the panel
<seb128> oh, weird url is a screenshot
<seb128> could be bug #1635625
<ubottu> bug 1635625 in unity (Ubuntu) "Some indicator icons are missing after unlocking the screen" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1635625
<seb128> which is new in 16.10
<seb128> but not due to a recent update
<seb128> so that doesn't really match the IRC description
<dobey> yeah, and nothing has really changed in the library or indicator-application recently either
<andrewsh> seb128: the indicators are from skype and owncloud
<rbasak> nacc, smoser: let me know when you're both available to talk about the importer
<smoser> rbasak, ok.
<smoser> i'm fine whenever. just when the west coast wakes up.
<rbasak> OK
 * rbasak has a hard stop today
<rbasak> cpaelzer: around? Did you do anything to your branch after the dovecot merge? It would do with tagging and pushing, and then I can run the importer to bring it up to date with your work. Maybe this isn't documented?
<cpaelzer> rbasak: I'm here
<cpaelzer> rbasak: I haven't touched it since the upload with the modifications to the MP that you reviewed
<cpaelzer> rbasak: but I might miss the point of your question
<cpaelzer> rbasak: since I'm curious - short HO to sync on that?
<rbasak> cpaelzer: please could you tag the thing that you uploaded? Should be upload/<version> (with substitutions if needed)
<rbasak> cpaelzer: sure!
<cpaelzer> rbasak: yeah in the past the uploader did that, since that now is me yeah I should add the tag
<cpaelzer> rbasak: I'm in the team HO that we have later
<rbasak> Oh
<jbicha> cyphermox: I noticed you rebuilt devscripts at the start of the yakkety cycle; could you do the same for zesty now so that it picks up zesty as the current dev release?
<cyphermox> sure
<cyphermox> but I thought this already worked
<cyphermox> or not
<cyphermox> jbicha: I might as well do the merge at the same time, so it will take a little while
<jbicha> cyphermox: that's fine, thanks
<nacc> rbasak: i'm around now
<nacc> smoser: --^
<rbasak> nacc, smoser: usual team hangout?
<smoser> k. yeah.
<nacc> rbasak: smoser: sure
<juliank> Whoa, I spent an hour on cleaning up a bugs now, I got 19.
<juliank> There are still 446 in LP, if anyone else wants to play.
<juliank> :)
<Laney> mardy: oh no!
<Laney> got a webview out of the blue
<Laney> lots of signon stuff in syslog /me attaches
<mardy> Laney: and you still have the signon-ui from that silo?
<Laney> yeah
<Laney> didn't restart
<Laney> I notice that the title is "Web authentication" instead of "Web authentication for Google"
<mardy> mmm
<mardy> Laney: and what are the contents? Still google?
<Laney> yep
<Laney> sec, just attaching
<cyphermox> jbicha: done.
<Laney> ahh, I forgot to remove URLs and stuff
<Laney> mardy: it's there, no massive rush on investigating though
<mardy> Laney: thanks, I'll have a quick look now just to see if I need to ask you for some more
<doko> cyphermox: missing -v<version> for devscripts merge
<mardy> Laney: could it be that you removed some lines coming from com.nokia.singlesignonui[11563] ?
<Laney> mardy: not removed, but I maybe missed them when copying (just selected a range)
<Laney> lemme see
<Laney> mardy: There's stuff from earlier on when I logged in
<mardy> Laney: no, that's not important
<mardy> Laney: I guess I need to add some debugging statements here and there
<mardy> Laney: eds is really spamming signond with 28 requests in a second (and apparently, for a single account), maybe it's triggering some race condition
<mardy> Laney: I see that the first request is going well, reusing the previously stored token without invoking signon-ui
<cyphermox> doko: oh, you're right
<nacc> smoser: i don't know what happened to your fetchmail import, it worked fine here -- let me finish testing the fixes for LP: #1638614 andi'll push to master
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638614 in usd-importer "linux-base, module-init-tools fail import: AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'group'" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638614
<smoser> nacc, but it didnt stack trace
<nacc> smoser: yeah, i have no idea -- did the system kill it?
<nacc> smoser: it also doesn't show any errors in that paste
<smoser> dont think so
<smoser> well, it exted non-zero was all
<smoser> but yeah, it was odd to me too
<nacc> smoser: right, but we always exit with 1 on failure
<nacc> iirc
<nacc> so if it was a different exit code
<nacc> then maybe it was sigkill'd?
<nacc> i just had one die to too many open files
<nacc> which i'm not sure how htat happened yet
<smoser> i think system is kind of just really not happy
<smoser> so possible that something happened
<nacc> yeah, i'm not sure how to debug it at this point
<nacc> smoser: ok, so git doesn't like '' as an author :)
<nacc> smoser: suggestions of how to resolve this?
<nacc> i could i think walk the lp package_maintainer_link maybe
<smoser> nacc, yeah, not worry about the fail if not reproducible http://paste.ubuntu.com/23421781/ is my dmesg. that thing does look scary
<smoser> wrt git not liking ''...
<smoser>  if author == "":
<smoser>     commit_author = "NotAvailable"
<smoser> or somethign to that affect ?
<nacc> right, but then we are putting that in the commit hash :)
<nacc> and that's not obtainable without the importer
<nacc> i'm trying to think if there's anything better we can do
<smoser> meh.
<smoser> lots of things are not obtainable without the importer.
<nacc> i guess that's true
<nacc> so i do think launchpad figures this out
<nacc> testing again
<nacc> smoser: ok, was able to fallback to launchpad data for the name, at least; if the email fails to parse its a hard fail as you need to be logged into lp for that data
<nacc> but fixed the code to fail cleaner in that case, at least
<nacc> smoser: so i think there migth be some underlying leak with the commit_msg_file thing
<nacc> smoser: i just checked with lsof and even though the files are listed as deleted, they are showing as still open
<nacc> any idea why that might be?
<cjwatson> nacc: (also some people have their email addresses hidden in LP, so you need a fallback anyway)
<nacc> cjwatson: ack
<nacc> smoser: we probably need to handle that properly at some point (email failing to parse fully)
<nacc> smoser: i wonder if we could just insert <no-email-found@launchpad.do-not-mail.net> or something
<smoser> hm.. nacc reading for commit_msg_fiel comment
<nacc> smoser: thanks, i don't see it yet, unless it's a side-effect of the with and unlink
<nacc> smoser: is it possible the run is holding on to a reference somehow?
<smoser> nah.
<smoser> so...
<smoser> tempfile.mkstemp() returns a 'os' filehandle and the file name
<smoser> we open the file name on our own (with open ...) and close that
<smoser> but i suspect possibly the os file handle needs to be closed
<nacc> ah, so it's the first filehandle still being open
<nacc> that would make sense
<smoser> os.close(_)
<smoser> essentilally
<cjwatson> perhaps you should use os.fdopen instead
<cjwatson> (closing a file object created by fdopen closes the underlying file descriptor too, which is probably what you want here)
<cjwatson> so you wouldn't need a separate os.close if you did that
<cjwatson> (I have not read the code here, I just know fdopen)
<smoser> possibly, yeah.
<cjwatson> or else just use a higher-level thing like tempfile.TemporaryFile or tempfile.NamedTemporaryFile rather than messing around with mkstemp
<cjwatson> which is implemented with mkstemp + fdopen anyway, but why bother doing it yourself when you don't have to
<nacc> smoser: is it not possible to do fp, _ = tempfile.mkstemp()
<nacc> fp.write(msg)
<nacc> fp.close()?
<nacc> or as cjwatson said
<cjwatson> nacc: that's:
<smoser> you need os.write()
<cjwatson> with tempfile.TemporaryFile() as fp:
<smoser> to that thing. as its hot a file.
<cjwatson>     fp.write(msg)
<cjwatson> (though obviously you would need to do something more as a temporary file that immediately vanishes isn't very useful)
<nacc> ah right
<smoser> we want a name to it also . which is why i used mkstemp
<cjwatson> smoser: then use NamedTemporaryFile.
<cjwatson> you're fighting the stdlib unnecessarily here.
<nacc> smoser: right, so there is an issue here, can you spin up a fix? :)
<nacc> smoser: it seems fatal only for libvirt so far :)
<smoser> sure. i'm not sure why i didnt use it. but sure.
<nacc> smoser: thanks!
<cjwatson> you may need delete=False and a later unlink, or else do fp.flush() and put the stuff that uses the tempfile inside the with statement
<nacc> anyone have a suggestion on how to commit the following: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/iscsitarget/0.4.15+svn148-2.1ubuntu1
<nacc> note the date is wrong
<nacc> as in, invalid -- so should i fallback to the publishing information?
<smoser> nacc, i suspect http://paste.ubuntu.com/23422293/ fixes
<nacc> smoser: looks reasonable
<smoser> actually.
<smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/23422302/
<nacc> makes sense
<smoser> you want a MP?
<nacc> smoser: i can commit it here if that's ok by you
<cjwatson> I think I'd just put the run() and whatever's below it inside the with NamedTemporaryFile block in that case and not have to bother with delete=False
<cjwatson> assuming it's small
<cjwatson> yeah, that seems much cleaner
<smoser> thats fine.
<nacc> smoser: ack, commiting now
<smoser> cjwatson, i probably need the flush, right ?
<cjwatson> yeah
<smoser> nacc, that "only" leaks one file handle per git commit though.
<smoser> so its not great, but this glibc import i have running for 18 hours now only has 417 open files.
<nacc> smoser: committed & pushed
<nacc> cjwatson: thanks!
<nacc> yeah, it's not a huge deal, just an oddity when i was hopeing to use `lsof -p <importer pid> | grep /tmp` to quickly see where it was running without having passed --verbose
<nacc> smoser: thoughts on what to use as a fallback for the author date if it is unparseable? i am adding a strptime check on the extracted value from the changelog, but what should i use if it's bad? published date if possible? and if neither is present ...
<smoser> if neither is present i suggest my birthday
<smoser> i dont know. publish date shoudl be present always, shoudlnt' it ?
<nacc> it's not always in my expereicne
<nacc> i can't recall if that's because of superseded or deleted values
<nacc> let me see if the underlying pacakge upload date always is
<nacc> smoser: do you think it would be trivial to disconnect the run logging from the verbosity? that is, it'd be really nice to run with --verbose and get just the tracing we have from the importer code, not the shell commands being run. To get those, maybe -vv or something?
<nacc> smoser: when debugging one change that will fix an import, i really can't read the output anymore :)
<nacc> smoser: and i get all the cache hits too
<smoser> its not terribly hard. really we just want to set up different loging i think (at lesat thats one way to do it).
<smoser> -v = info
<smoser> -vv = debug
<smoser> -vvv = loud
<nacc> right
<nacc> but run and co use logging.debug
<nacc> as does the importer
<nacc> so just changing the loglevel globally won't work
<nacc> i guess we could switch those around
<nacc> yeah i think that's what we should do
<smoser> well, we have to add a 'loud'
<smoser> which is just
<smoser>  logging.log(logging.DEBUG - 10, msg)
<nacc> or logging.addLevelname
<smoser> oh i didnt know this.
<smoser> probably its and
<smoser> not or
<nacc> reading about it now
<nacc> i think that would be more maintainable
<nacc> err, right, it'd be something like logging.addLevelName(logging.DEBUG - 5)
<nacc> as DEBUG is 10 and 0 is NOTSET
<nacc> i'll play with that
<smoser> sure. ijust picked a number
<smoser> i've been annoyned before of the "top heavy" ness of python logging.
<nacc> yep
<smoser> info , warn, error, critical
<smoser> it doesn't lend itself to usage like we're wanting.
<smoser> debug, debug2, debug3
<smoser> so cloud-init just gives you a firehose at debug
<smoser> there really seems like there shoudl be a trace
<nacc> yep
<nacc> smoser: fudge, found a reason *not* to use a cache
<nacc> smoser: https://launchpad.net/debian/+source/pcre3/1:8.35-3.2
<nacc> https://launchpad.net/debian/+source/pcre3/2:8.35-3.2
<nacc> note that the .dsc files are named the same
<nacc> but are different
<nacc> i believe pull-debian-source doesn't detect that
<nacc> urp, they *should* be different
<nacc> but they aren't
#ubuntu-devel 2016-11-04
<syeh> Hi, does anyone here happen to know how ubuntu gnome resizes the wall paper upon a resolution change?  I'm running into a strange issue where going from 800x600 -> 1024x768, and the wall paper stays in 800x600 size.
<nacc> syeh: you may want #ubuntu
<syeh> Yeah, I tried that, but I thought maybe this channel is better suited for code development related questions
<syeh> At first I thought the issue is with our graphics driver, but it's beginning to look like something inside of 16.10
<cpaelzer> good morning
<pitti> sergiusens: http://honk.sigxcpu.org/projects/git-buildpackage/manual-html/gbp.html is the official doc
<pitti> sergiusens: e. g. http://honk.sigxcpu.org/projects/git-buildpackage/manual-html/gbp.import.html#GBP.IMPORT.NEW.UPSTREAM
<mardy> Laney: hi! Can you please update your signon-ui from https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/2135 ?
<mardy> Laney: please ping me once you're done, there is something else which you should do to activate logging
<Laney> mardy: sure (haven't got the bug yet today, FWIW)
 * Laney does now
<Laney> done
<mardy> Laney: do you have a file ~/.config/QtProject/qtlogging.ini?
<Laney> mardy: nope
<mardy> Laney: ok, then echo -e "[Rules]\nsignon.debug=true" > ~/.config/QtProject/qtlogging.ini
<mardy> Laney: then kill signon-ui, if it's running
<Laney> mardy: done
<Laney> do I need to relaunch it?
<mardy> Laney: no, you just need for the bug to appear :-)
<Laney> ok, then stand by :)
<Laney> if it happened 2 hours after I logged in then that's in 3 minutes :P
<mardy> Laney: did you do something to trigger it? like checking the calendar for example?
<Laney> mardy: IIRC I was in a terminal when it happened, so I don't think so
<sil2100> Hey! My dbus package is blocked in -proposed due to LP: #1590956 - does anyone know if we can somehow ignore this autopkgtest failure for the time being?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1590956 in plasma-framework (Ubuntu) "plasma-framework 5.22.0a-0ubuntu1 fails tests on s390x" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1590956
<pitti> rcj: hey! do you know what's blocking getting zesty-daily cloud images into simplestreams? that's blocking importing them into our clouds
<sil2100> pitti: hey! I know you're sprinting so you probably don't have enough capacity for autopkgtest things, but I was wondering if I could request some failing autopkgtest exceptions to unblock things migrating? Regressions not caused by the actual packages trying to migrate but due to 'others'
<pitti> sil2100: what ones are you looking for? I can add hints, but not enough time to walk throgh the huge -proposed (initial autosync swamp)
<sil2100> pitti: so the first concrete candidate would be the plasma-framework s390x failure for the dbus package in -proposed (I also see the same plasma failure in openbox too)
<sil2100> pitti: this one is caused by a known issue in LP: #1590956
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1590956 in plasma-framework (Ubuntu) "plasma-framework 5.22.0a-0ubuntu1 fails tests on s390x" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1590956
<sil2100> (unrelated to the packages trying to migrate)
<xnox> marcustomlinson, hello
<marcustomlinson> xnox: hi
<xnox> marcustomlinson, i am looking at https://bileto.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/2130 and I see it's stuck on https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/2130/+build/11135918
<xnox> why is there a build-dependency on less than boost 1.62?
<xnox> also, that's not quite a good way to limit things; as boost-defaults have moved to 1.62 in zesty.
<xnox> you can build-depend on: libboost-regex-dev (< 1.62~) | libboost-regex1.61-dev
<marcustomlinson> xnox: right, that MP with that dependancy rule was nuked. I was trying to see if 1.61 would fix this: https://www.mail-archive.com/debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org/msg1467173.html
<xnox> that way it will work anywhere were the default is lower, or will pull in 1.61 in zesty, for now.
<marcustomlinson> xnox: (issue with libboost-python1.62.0)
<xnox> marcustomlinson, i see. so stuck behind boost-python misscompile.
<xnox> marcustomlinson, i will prioritise trying to fix that then! =)
<xnox> thanks for pointing out the underlying issue!
<marcustomlinson> xnox: thanks! Yeah, wasn't really sure who to speak to about it. Was gonna watch the debian bug thread over the weekend I guess
 * xnox started boost1.62 transitions in both ubuntu & debian..... :-(
<marcustomlinson> xnox: so the thanks go to you!
<pitti> sil2100: dbus hinted
<sil2100> pitti: thanks! Still looking into the libnih issues, but this one I knew was b0rken
<marcustomlinson> xnox: you can see the failures across the board on zesty here: https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/2110/+packages
<xnox> ack
<rcj> pitti, which streams?  zesty is in the daily download stream.  it's been there for a week.
<rcj> it's also in AWS daily streams
<pitti> rcj: not according to IS (https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=97105)
<pitti> rcj: if it is, mind if I CC: you on the ticket and Jacek and you talk directly?
<rcj> sure
<rcj> I'll be back at my desk in 90m
<rcj> pitti, ah, I see the index.json has dropped them.  I'll file a bug and get it going
<pitti> rcj: he pointed at http://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/releases/streams/v1/index.sjson but I don't see per-release images there at all
<rcj> pitti, no, wait.  they're there.  They are looking in the wrong stream
<pitti> rcj: daily vs. released?
<rcj> You won't have images in 'releases' stream until zesty is released.
<rcj> Use the daily stream during development
<Laney> https://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/daily/streams/v1/index.sjson
<Laney> that has it
<pitti> Laney: nice, thanks!
<rcj> okay, was worried that something had broken after we turned on zesty
<pitti> rcj, Laney: cheers
<rcj> np
<Laney> cheers to you!
 * Laney is watching the adt queues slowly drain
<pitti> Laney: I hope on Monday they'll look better
<Laney> pitti: I added some more workers (especially for armhf)
<Laney> it's going downwards
<Laney> graphs would be nice for times like this :-)
<pitti> Laney: oh, nice! and that doesn't reduce the (relative) quota for ppc64el too much?
<Laney> pitti: the bos01 quota is actually good
<cjwatson> I'd hope that quotas for ARM and POWER are independent.
<Laney> If they are it's not exposed in nova's output
<Laney> Or at least not the command I'm using :)
<pitti> they aren't, it's the quota for the bos01 cloud, not per-arch
<rekoil> i'm having issues with libapache2-mod-wsgi-py3
<rekoil> running python3 code with it seems to segfault
<rekoil> this is on an up-to-date trusty installation
<rekoil> anyone able to help me confirm this isn't just an issue on my end?
<rekoil> libapache2-mod-wsgi works with python2 code
<rekoil> but not libapache2-mod-wsgi-py3 with python3 code, all i get is segfaults trying to launch python3
<nacc> rbasak: around?
<nacc> smoser: had to implement an entirely new override model, but netty and pcre3 now import :)
<smoser> nacc, nice.
<nacc> smoser: the underlying issue was dsc/tarball shadowing in LP
<nacc> smoser: so the same named file was being used by two different dsc files (and sometimes the same named dsc file) which then led hashes to mismatch or the wrong dsc to be used
<doko> LocutusOfBorg: did you check all emacs25 rdeps in main?
<LocutusOfBorg> doko, I don't know how to check
<nacc> reverse-depends -c main src:emacs25
<nacc> and maybe -b separately?
<doko> nacc: we don't have any yet
<doko> LocutusOfBorg: all packages which have emacs or emacs24 as b-d's in main
<nacc> doko: oh i see transitioning emacs24 to emacs25, sorry
<LocutusOfBorg> doko, webkitgtk is in universe
<LocutusOfBorg> the only one that has such issue
<tdaitx> is there a script out there that automates buildlog downloads? as in "download buildlogs for all archs for this package for a particular release"... I couldn't find anything
<tdaitx> it would be great if it could handle private ppas as well
<LocutusOfBorg> checking for WEBKIT... yes
<LocutusOfBorg> not sure what does happen if we remove it
<sarnold> tdaitx: fetch-buildlogs http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/ubuntu-qa-tools/master/files/head:/security-tools/
<tdaitx> sarnold, nice! thanks for that ;-)
<nacc> smoser: ping
<smoser> hey
<nacc> smoser: so i think there are 3 known cases where i can't make pristine-tar work, the cases i'm working with the launchpad folks to get alias tarballs for
<nacc> smoser: *aliased
<nacc> smoser: as the upstream is already tagged and we can't import it again
<nacc> smoser: are you ok with that? it's historical, shouldn't happen again, but means there will be some versions that aren't buildable with pristine-tar (all long ago so far)
<nacc> smoser: usd-build will be able to build them still, i think, once i update it to know about the aliasing
<smoser> 3 known cases?
<smoser> as in 3 ever ? or 3 types of things.
<nacc> 3 publishes of src packages that are wrong
<nacc> well, 'wrong', but yeah
<nacc> 3 so far
<smoser> nacc, i dont have strong feelings.
<smoser> but wonder how you came up with 3
<smoser> was that a db query on launchpad or a result of the things we've seen fail
<smoser> as we've' only attempted a extremely small set of things (like 800)
<smoser> of the probably 50000 things
<nacc> 3 things you've filed bugs for
<nacc> that are root caused to the same issue
<nacc> smoser: there is no other workaround for this problem, though
<nacc> it's a fatal flaw in pristine_tar :)
<nacc> inasmuch as pristine-tar assumes (afaict) orig tarballs are unique by name
<nacc> as does everythinge else, tbh
<nacc> smoser: rbasak: does the dsc branch really need to be namespaced?
<nacc> I didn't make a note as to why that should be necessary
<nacc> similarly, i'm not sure i recally why namespacing the pristine-tar branch is necessary?
<nacc> I mean, I can do it relatively trivially, but I'm not sure why we would
<nacc> smoser: my fix also seems to be fixing ipvsadm
<nacc> fyi
<nacc> smoser: sweet, pristine-tar working, afaict -- needs some tooling assistance to rename importer/ubuntu/pristine-tar or importer/debian/pristine-tar to pristine-tar (as it assumes that branch name and can't use a symbolic-ref)
<nacc> smoser: rbasak: i'm done for the week, will check in monday with what's left and maybe to clarify how we want to namespace stuff, everything i have is pushed up the git trre
<nacc> the only thing i didn't get to is the `usd ...` subcommanding
#ubuntu-devel 2016-11-05
<LStranger> Who can close LP bugs? For example, #1122355 was apparently fixed long time ago and is against not supported Ubuntu version.
<ginggs> LStranger: done
<LStranger> ginggs: thank you
#ubuntu-devel 2016-11-06
<gebruiker> is there a menotring channel for packageing?
<mitya57> gebruiker, try #debian-mentors on OFTC. Or if it's really Ubuntu-specific, then #ubuntu-motu here.
#ubuntu-devel 2017-10-30
<doko> mapreri: was the opencv sync from eperimental intend?  I added a transition tracker for now
 * rbasak has always pronounced tsimonq2 as "tee-ess-eye-monk-two" and only just realised that it actually has "simon" embedded in it.
<ginggs> tsai-mon-queue-too
<jamespage> mitya57: I need to sync with coreycb - pkg-openstack in debian has had a flush or work to get debian up to the pike release; we've been doing our own thing for 12 months now so merging/syncing needs some careful management again...
<acheronuk> rbasak: I can't help do the same when I read it, and have known that is wrong for well over a year!
<tsimonq2> rbasak: It's my initials with "Simon" extended. I rarely tell people my full name because everyone calls me Simon ;)
<coreycb> mitya57: jamespage: i can work on bumping python-os-api-ref and python-pbr to new versions. the new versions use sphinx >= 1.6.2
<jamespage> coreycb: I merged pbr already - not looked at os-api-ref yet
<jamespage> pls feel free
<coreycb> jamespage: ok will do and thanks
<andreas> sil2100: hi, good afternoon
<andreas> sil2100: could you please reply to my comment https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1719671/comments/45 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1719671 in ubuntu-advantage-tools (Ubuntu Zesty) "[SRU] include recent version containing fips and livepatch" [Medium,In progress]
<jbicha> doko: you mythtv upload results in "libcdio        support will not be included in MythMusic" so that's a regression from what was in Ubuntu
<jbicha> it might be worth checking the other libcdio rdepends to make sure they still end up depending on libcdio libraries
<jbicha> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/libcdio.html
<smoser> is there a fine manual that ii'm supposed to read for
<infinity> jbicha: Bah.  That's bound to be mythtv-specific.  Lemme look.
<smoser> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/1728616
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1728616 in apt (Ubuntu) "using 'devel' in sources.list causes apt-get update to fail" [Undecided,New]
<infinity> smoser: Yeah, don't use devel in sources.list.
<smoser> i'm guessing this is known to some extent. i can't be the only one that is using devel
<infinity> We should delete all references to it and call it a pointless and failed experiment, IMO. :P
<smoser> infinity: thats fine with me.
<smoser> you're welcome to comment in that bug.
<infinity> But it's been known not to work for a long time.
<smoser> i'm not sure how we got across the transition to artful
<smoser> on this system.
<infinity> smoser: I imagine something like "apt-get -o Acquire::AllowDowngradeToInsecureRepositories update" once would get you past the hump.
<infinity> smoser: But also, meh.
<infinity> Err, Acquire::AllowDowngradeToInsecureRepositories=true
<smoser> infinity: but mostly i agree, if its going to not really work, then shoudl proabbly remove any doc of it.
<sil2100> smoser: hey!
<sil2100> smoser: I saw your comment on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/livecd-rootfs/+bug/1721279 - does the C locale sorting break any of your use-cases?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1721279 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu Xenial) "Improve teardown_mountpoint to recursively find all submounts and unmount them" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<sil2100> smoser: I was looking into releasing this to -updates, but I don't want to cause unwanted regressions
<mitya57> coreycb, jamespage: thanks!
<jamespage> mitya57: np
<smoser> sil2100: i dont have any thing related to that.
<smoser> and i suspect the fix worked to do what they needed. I think we can consider my comment an improvement that should be done, but I dont expect that their changes tehre woudl regress anything.
<sil2100> smoser: ok, thanks!
<coreycb> bdmurray: when you have a chance can you take a look at horizon in the zesty and artful queues?
<nacc> doko: not quite sure what to make of the pacemaker ftbfs (LP: #1712441). It's known in Debian too and apparently due to libqb changes in binutils? There's a few upstream changes mentioned in the RH bug (linked from the Debian one), but not sure if any of those actually help this case.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1712441 in pacemaker (Ubuntu) "pacemaker 1.1.17-1ubuntu1 FTBFS" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1712441
<nacc> doko: oh nm, debian pacemaker fixed this by dropping the symbols (they just didn't close the bug in the upload): https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/debian-ha/pacemaker.git/commit/?h=debian/1.1.18_rc3-1&id=6a773b679a441155d8556506d70c9173776fdcf8
<blackboxsw> bdmurray: if you get a chance this week. https://code.launchpad.net/~chad.smith/apport/add-multichar-response-for-long-lists/+merge/332729 is up for apport
<blackboxsw> not sure which channel to chat about this
#ubuntu-devel 2017-10-31
<doko> jamespage: ceph ftbfs with new boost on some archs
<jamespage> doko: yeah working on an update for that this week
<jamespage> doko: hmm - https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/3006/+packages
<jamespage> that's odd - I was expecting that to fail
<jamespage> that's building against proposed
<doko> hmm, transient, retrying
<doko> the ftbfs didn't have any build log
<mitya57> Whom should I ping about updating ubuntu-packaging-guide webpage? [ https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2017-October/040021.html ]
<mitya57> According to IPs it is hosted on citrusnobilis.canonical.com and yangmei.canonical.com. Who has access to those servers?
<rbasak> If no answer here, maybe try #canonical-sysadmin? They might be able to track it down to an owner.
<niedbalski> RAOF, rbasak hello, any chance to sponsor the SRUs for bug 1657256? (they're already in unapproved, uploaded by cpaelzer).
<ubottu> bug 1657256 in percona-xtradb-cluster-5.6 (Ubuntu Zesty) "Percona crashes when doing a a 'larger' update" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1657256
<LocutusOfBorg> niedbalski, probably this is a question for #ubuntu-release team
<LocutusOfBorg> if it is already uploaded
<dgadomski> hello doko, re bug #1638695, I've shared some more benchmarks in the spreadsheet
<ubottu> bug 1638695 in python2.7 (Ubuntu Xenial) "Python 2.7.12 performance regression" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638695
<dgadomski> do you think any of the settings is worth considering of backporting to xenial?
<andreas> sil2100: hi, this bug has the v13 tarball of ubuntu-advantage-tools attached for bionic. It runs the tests at package build time
<andreas> sil2100: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1721272
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1721272 in ubuntu-advantage-tools (Ubuntu) "Create 'ua' symlink pointing at 'ubuntu-advantage'" [High,New]
<andreas> and also fixes the bug, of course
<andreas> I didn't file a bug specifically to have tests run at package build time
<doko> dgadomski: yes, I think everything but the PyFPE changes. I'll have a look until next week
<dgadomski> doko: ok, thank you
<coreycb> hello release team, python-monasca-statsd in bionic NEW is a source package replacement of monasca-statsd
<jbicha> acheronuk: there are 2 KDE autopkgtests holding up dbus in bionic-proposed but I expect the autopkgtest queue to be full for a couple days
<jbicha> from the initial autosync and perl, etc. so I guess you might not be able to do much with it soon
<acheronuk> jbicha: nope. I doubt I can. one is on armhf, that we scarcely care much about, and will get a new version soon anyway. the other has a new frameworks upload ready and I would try to fix in that, but I can't do that until the just kicked off Qt uploads/transition are at least all built, if not through
<acheronuk> jbicha: so if you are in any hurry, I can see good reason there for asking for a version specific hint/skip from the release team on those tests
<jbicha> no hurry, I'm guessing the new versions will end up fixing the issue or something
<seb128> could somebody from the SRU team review the unity-control-center/xenial upload that was just uploaded? it's one the oem team is waiting on for a while and that would be nice to let it today if we can
<rbasak> niedbalski: I'm aware but I can't take an interrupt right now, sorry.
<niedbalski> ^^ any other SRU team member has any cycles to review it?
<seb128> bdmurray, hey, could you maybe have a look to the unity-control-center SRU in the xenial queue? the oem team is waiting on it
<xnox> popey, i have a few tasks that might be suitable for Google Cod In
<popey> Great!
<xnox> popey, it is circa 200 bite size tasks
<xnox> popey, can we chat about it? if they are suitable?/
<popey> Golly! That's great.
<popey> Yeah, I'm on vacation today, tomorrow?
<xnox> popey, sure! just ping me whenever you are free
<popey> kk will do
<sarnold> we're teaching fish to program?
<bdmurray> Only Cod though
<bdmurray> No Salmon
<xnox> bdmurray, indeed salmon is bad, salmon has too many lice in scotland right now.
<xnox> sarnold, i'm just going to get minions to write systemd units for me =) to replace all the init.d scripts =)
<sarnold> xnox: YES
<seb128> bdmurray, thanks
<acheronuk> jbicha: on some retries, those KDE tests have now passed
<jbicha> acheronuk: I appreciate it! â­
<acheronuk> just wish I had a good reason why :/
<acheronuk> Apparently successful
<acheronuk> final: dbus,libsdl2-gfx,libsdl2-image
<LaurenceLumi> any clues on how to use backports with pbuilder-dist?
<LaurenceLumi>  I have xenial set up with pbuilder-dist, but I want to build a package from zesty that needs a later version of debhelper that is available in xenial-backports
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: don't use pbuilder? :) sbuild at least supports adding extra repositories
<LaurenceLumi> :-) I was just following the packaging guide, the must be a way
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: i really dont' know anythig about pbuilder myself, sorry
<HeadlessHorseman> LaurenceLumi: Certainly is.
<LaurenceLumi> thought so
<HeadlessHorseman> Do you use a hook to refresh the repositories?  If so, it's just another option. I simply have it in my pbuilderrc though.
<LaurenceLumi> I tried something like I found some instructions here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto#Using_backport_repositories_in_pbuilder
<LaurenceLumi> but it didn't work
<LaurenceLumi> could you post the lines from your pbuildrecc?
<HeadlessHorseman> https://sigma.unit193.net/~unit193/pbuilderrc - https://sigma.unit193.net/~unit193/D99RefreshRepositories (remove the first two lines at least.)
<LaurenceLumi> thanks HeadlessHorseman the guide I posted has the lines to append to /etc/app/source.list but it does include a line to apt-get upgrade
<LaurenceLumi> so I understand no why it didn;t work
<LaurenceLumi> thanks
<HeadlessHorseman> I presume you know about the hookdir?  And not to use my pbuilderrc directly unless you know what it does? :P
<LaurenceLumi> Yes I think so, I actually set hook.d with E01file with lines to modify /etc/app/sources
<LaurenceLumi> but It did not work as expected as there was no apt-get upgrade
#ubuntu-devel 2017-11-01
<crogers> Hey folks, anyone else having this problem with nautilus in ubuntu 17.10:
<crogers> https://www.dropbox.com/s/pvywye6alea76j4/nautilus_undo_history_bug.movie.mp4?dl=1
<crogers> It seems ctrl+z undo tries to undo the last file opperation rather than the last text edit.
<crogers> nautilus devs have fixed this behoaviour previously, so it's probably an Ubuntu patch that's causing the problem.
<rbasak> Have you filed a bug?
<rbasak> And are you sure that the upstream fix is included in the version shipped in 17.10?
<rbasak> probably an Ubuntu patch that's causing the problem> seems like a pretty unsubstantiated claim to me.
<crogers> rbasak: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/nautilus/commit/bf6b1e2c2f0cd3d882f99029af79a3439bdacec1
<crogers> there's the patch that was released.
<crogers> nautilus devs can not reproduce the bug.
<crogers> I'm trying to determine where to post the bug report.
<crogers> If this bug is only showing up in Ubuntu 17.10 build of nautilus, and Ubuntu patches nautilus then what other conclusion should I draw? :)
<rbasak> It's not a reasonable conclusion to draw unless you have found that the same area of code is being patched.
<rbasak> FWIW, it looks like that commit is included in Artful.
<crogers> rbasak: You're saying that some other patch could not affect the behaviour of this code?
<rbasak> Nope. I'm saying that more commonly there are other interactions that cause "can't reproduce upstream" type bugs, such as different dependency versions, so jumping to the conclusion of "it's because Ubuntu patched" is premature - especially for those unfamiliar with the code.
<crogers> rbasak: that's just the info I got from the nautilus devs. I guess you can argue with them about code specifics.
<crogers> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/1729264
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1729264 in nautilus (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu-patched nautilus causes regression of file rename popover bug" [Undecided,New]
<crogers> there's your bug report. Please let me know if I can help in any way.
<crogers> Feel free to rename it if you don't like the title. :)
<rbasak> Done. Your claim is unsubstantiated and unconfirmed and does not belong in the bug title.
<rbasak> Thank you for filing the bug.
<crogers> rbasak: no problem. :)
<crogers> happy to help.
<rbasak> Otherwise we might as well rename *all* bugs that cannot be reproduced in the same version upstream. That would be pointless :)
<crogers> rbasak: Thanks for the feedback. It will help me produce better bug titles in the future.
<rbasak> crogers: you're welcome. It's best to focus on exactly what behaviour is wrong. Feel free to speculate, but please keep that in the details and make it clear what is fact vs. what is speculation.
<crogers> rbasak: Noted. Again, just passing on what nautilus devs told me. I'm not qualified to draw proper conclusions. I'm just happy if I can get enough information for a useful bug report. :)
<rbasak> I'm sorry I can't spare the time to debug this further. Hopefully someone from the desktop team can do it.
<rbasak> But a bug report is definitely the first step :)
<crogers> rbalint: no problem. It's not a major issue for me, just a minor annoyance.
<crogers> er oops
<crogers> rbasak: ^
<crogers> rbalint: Sorry for the noise.
<crogers> Thanks everyone for making ubuntu better!
<andreas> hi, does anybody know if the systemd network-online.target includes wireless networks that only come up after a user logs in on a desktop?
<LaurenceLumi> I do #pull-lp-source imagemagick zesty
<LaurenceLumi> but get this warning:
<LaurenceLumi> gpgv: Signature made Mon Jul 31 13:52:14 2017 BST using RSA key ID A744BE93
<LaurenceLumi> gpgv: Can't check signature: public key not found
<LaurenceLumi> what do I need to verify the key
<slashd> LaurenceLumi, try this "sudo gpg --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-keys A744BE93"
<slashd> and retry
<LaurenceLumi> no joy, if I run sudo gpg --fingerprint I can see it was added
<LocutusOfBorg> sudo? LaurenceLumi you don't need it, maybe you are adding to the root keyring, not to the current user one?
<LaurenceLumi> I think the files in ~/.gnupg ended up being owned by root, if fixed that,
<LaurenceLumi> gpg --fingerprint shows:
<LaurenceLumi> pub   4096R/A744BE93 2014-06-16 [revoked: 2016-08-16]
<LaurenceLumi>       Key fingerprint = 2445 F8BC A621 74B9 2DFF  04E3 F021 0224 A744 BE93
<LaurenceLumi> uid                  Marc Deslauriers <marcdeslauriers@videotron.ca>
<LaurenceLumi> pub   4096R/A744BE93 2010-09-30
<LaurenceLumi>       Key fingerprint = 50C4 A0DD CF31 E452 CEB1  9B51 6569 D855 A744 BE93
<LaurenceLumi> uid                  Marc Deslauriers <marcdeslauriers@videotron.ca>
<LaurenceLumi> uid                  Marc Deslauriers <mdeslaur@ubuntu.com>
<LaurenceLumi> uid                  Marc Deslauriers <mdeslaur@canonical.com>
<LaurenceLumi> uid                  Marc Deslauriers <marc.deslauriers@ubuntu.com>
<LaurenceLumi> uid                  Marc Deslauriers <marc.deslauriers@canonical.com>
<LaurenceLumi> sub   4096R/37AD7647 2010-09-30
<LaurenceLumi> Am I getting the error becuase the key is revoked?
<mdeslaur> LaurenceLumi: that's not my key
<mdeslaur> LaurenceLumi: my key has fingerprint 50C4 A0DD CF31 E452 CEB1  9B51 6569 D855 A744 BE93
<mdeslaur> you imported two keys with a short id collisio
<mdeslaur> short id collision
<mdeslaur> LaurenceLumi: you probably need to remove the revoked one from your keyring
<LaurenceLumi> Ok, how do I delete, and import them correctly
<LaurenceLumi> much appreciate the help
<Faux> That's incredibly unlucky.
<cjwatson> That's not unlucky - somebody generated collisions for the whole strong set in bulk, essentially as an argument that everyone needs to stop using short 32-bit key IDs
<cjwatson> gpg --delete-key 2445F8BCA62174B92DFF04E3F0210224A744BE93 to delete the collided one, and then you have the correct one already
<cjwatson> slashd: please don't recommend that anyone uses 32-bit key IDs for anything
<LaurenceLumi> Ok, I just deleted both, just for fun...
<LaurenceLumi> how do import it correctly
<cjwatson> you already did
<LaurenceLumi> orginally i did
<LaurenceLumi> gpg --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-keys A744BE93
<cjwatson> oh, you deleted it, "just for fun"
<LaurenceLumi> well just learning...
<LaurenceLumi> trying to figure how to do things properly, i.e. how do get the correct on in first go
<cjwatson> what I recommend is that you put "keyid-format long" in ~/.gnupg/gpg.conf (or ~/.gnupg/options if that file exists)
<LaurenceLumi> Ok, I think I am getting it,
<cjwatson> (testing)
<cjwatson> sigh, that still doesn't cause gpgv to output the long key ID.  Not helpful, gpgv!
<cjwatson> I mean, you don't actually have to verify this, since it's already been verified by virtue of being in Launchpad and otherwise you have to figure out whether the key it was signed by is one authorised to upload to Ubuntu
<cjwatson> since you don't have a trust path to the key in question, there isn't much value in you independently verifying it
<cjwatson> but to get the key in a safer way, the simplest way I can find is to run "gpg --verify imagemagick_6.9.7.4+dfsg-3ubuntu1.2.dsc" which says "using RSA key 6569D855A744BE93", and then you can run "gpg --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-keys 6569D855A744BE93"
<cjwatson> (slashd shouldn't have recommended "sudo gpg" here - it's just gpg)
<cjwatson> after having done that you can then run "gpg --verify imagemagick_6.9.7.4+dfsg-3ubuntu1.2.dsc" again
<cjwatson> gpg's UI is fairly nasty though, and I do recommend thinking about whether verifying the signature in fact buys you anything meaningful in this particular case.  Obviously you do need to do it if you've acquired a package in a way that could have been man-in-the-middled
<slashd> cjwatson, noted
<tacocat> is there anything I have to do to resync a package that had a source rename in Debian?
<LaurenceLumi> cjwatson thanks, I went through those steps thoroughly I can verify the package with "gpg --verify imagemagick_6.9.7.4+dfsg-3ubuntu1.2.dsc" but why does
<LaurenceLumi> pull-lp-source imagemagick zesty still throught an error
<LaurenceLumi> gpgv: Can't check signature: public key not found
<LaurenceLumi> is that becauase This key is not certified with a trusted signature!
<LaurenceLumi> ?
<cjwatson> gpgv uses a separate keyring, apparently
<cjwatson> ~/.gnupg/trustedkeys.gpg
<cjwatson> honestly I wouldn't worry about it if you've separately verified the package
<LaurenceLumi> OK, now I get thanks
<jbicha> bdmurray: What is "Install updates" in ubiquity supposed to do?
<jbicha> because I just installed Ubuntu GNOME 17.04, rebooted, ran sudo apt update, and apt list --upgradable and I am surprised that there are lots of security updates in that list
<jbicha> my interpretation of the ubiquity wording was that it should install all updates, security or not; but maybe it's not even doing either?
<bdmurray> jbicha: I'm not positive - cyphermox or xnox may know.
<xnox> jbicha, that tick box, downloads updates in the background whilst the system is installing / configuring.
<jbicha> ahem
<xnox> jbicha, expectation is that a system after such an install, is booted without network, but should have loads of debs in /var/lib/archive
<xnox> jbicha, but it all depends on how slow/fast install is, cause i think on ssd the install will finish before that option can do anything useful.
<bdmurray> So installing is misleading?
<xnox> bdmurray, possibly became obsolete due to much faster hardware these days - all laptops circa 5-10 years are ssd now?
<jbicha> oh I guess I was misreading the actual wording: https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts
<cjwatson> It used to be titled "Download updates while installing".  Is it not still?
<jbicha> https://www.linuxtechi.com/ubuntu-17-10-installation-guide-screenshots/
<jbicha> obviously not noto
<bdmurray> cjwatson: It is worded that way
<jbicha> that seems surprising that "download updates" may only download a few updates
<jbicha> it confused me that "download updates" and "install third-party software" are on the same page. I expected it to install updates
<jbicha> I don't understand how it's useful to just download .debs without installing them
<jbicha> and I don't understand your hypothetical example where the installer has networking but there isn't networking a few minutes later upon reboot
<bdmurray> jbicha: its useful in the way it says "saves time after installation"
<jbicha> it doesn't really save time if it's not going to bother installing them
<jbicha> since we install other packages (language packs, optional mp3 support), why don't we install at least security updates too so it's fairly secure "out of the box"?
<xnox> jbicha, it saves a lot of time when using e.g. 16.04.0 but there are a lot of things to upgrade post install.
<xnox> jbicha, the 3rd party stuff is actually installed, i.e. nvidia
<jbicha> would it be better if I open a bug or start a list discussion? I don't think the question we ask during the install is worth asking
<jbicha> we don't need permission to download security updates by default and IMO we don't even need permission to install them by default either
<mdeslaur> hrm, I'm not sure how well installing security updates would work during the installer, since it's not the real system
<jbicha> the same way as installing and uninstalling language packs?
<mdeslaur> those don't really have complex maintainer scripts
<cjwatson> those are super-specialised
<cjwatson> I mean seriously, the installer in fact relies on how simple they are
<cjwatson> it can "uninstall" them by ignoring all their files while copying the system and then doing a bit of tidy-up at the end
<cjwatson> which makes a serious speed difference for some images
<jbicha> am I wrong in thinking that ubuntu-restricted-addons shouldn't be an especially simple set of packages to install either?
<LaurenceLumi> question everything I do inside pbuilder login is thrown away while I exit correct?
<cjwatson> jbicha: I think that's basically dropping files in place and doesn't tend to e.g. involve maintainer scripts that interact with services
<cjwatson> jbicha: anyway IMO the question should be between downloading updates or not doing so, not between installing them or not; there's a general principle that we need to get out of the installer ASAP and let the user do useful work
<cjwatson> LaurenceLumi: yep, as the documentation says
<LaurenceLumi> That's what I thought but when I read this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto#dpkg_setting
<LaurenceLumi> it sort of suggests otherwise :-)
<LaurenceLumi> or have I mindunderstood what the guide is saying
<jbicha> cjwatson: ok, do we even need to bother asking for permission to download updates in the background? since that's done by default after install anyway
<tarzeau> https://launchpad.net/~gagarin/+maintained-packages why is there not the Aa and Bb stuff listed?
<cjwatson> LaurenceLumi: should perhaps recommend --save-after-login to make it permanent
<cjwatson> jbicha: yeah, I'm not sure
<cjwatson> tarzeau: I think that only lists the initial upload target, not wherever the packages in question may have been copied to since then
<tarzeau> cjwatson: and it's not just it doesn't bother about uploaders, but only maintainers (teams mainly for my pkgs)?
<LaurenceLumi> haha so I could just excepted all the defaults, just did a pbuilder create, then logged in with --save-after-login and made my changes manually and carried on?
<jbicha> thanks, I'll file a bug about the download question
<tarzeau> cjwatson: because it still seems to list packages that i'm maintainer  (not team maintained in debian), and not those (team maintained) as described above
<tarzeau> and somehow this changed, some months ago (thus breaking kinda the karma counter)
<tarzeau> where would the debian team pages on lp be? to check?
<cjwatson> tarzeau: I'm pretty certain none of that has changed for years
<cjwatson> Debian teams aren't necessarily represented on LP at all, although you can search by email address on https://launchpad.net/people
<cjwatson> karma is pretty arbitrary and not every possible action is guaranteed to be credited there
<cjwatson> LaurenceLumi: there are often a few different possible ways to set things up, yes
<TJ-> jbicha: cjwatson re:Download question. I prefer it there and usually don't enable it. The reason being I want the network's package proxy/mirror to be configured to prevent un-necessary external network activtiy.
<LaurenceLumi> I would suggest my why is probably the beginners way, but I get it now
<TJ-> jbicha: if there's an easy to see/set option to add the proxy address though :)
<jbicha> TJ-: at a minimum, I think we'd want to enable the download option by default
<TJ-> jbicha: as long as I still have the control to disable it :)
<jbicha> I think it's funny that for as many times as I've installed Ubuntu, I didn't really read that page carefully enough
<TJ-> jbicha: when doing repeated VM-based testing it's a pain having it always want to pull in additional packages
<andreas> hi, does anybody know if the systemd network-online.target includes wireless networks that only come up after a user logs in on a desktop? I'd say no, but wanted to check
<Faux> Probably depends on whether you're on networkmangler or not.
<Faux> I believe most machines wait for network online before starting a login manager, due to most services being poorly written.
<andreas> the wifi would be managed by network-manager, yes
<nacc> https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/NetworkTarget/ ?
<nacc> andreas: NM-wait-online.service appears to be before network-online.target
<nacc> andreas: *but* it sounds like the user has configure that wireless network to onnly be available for their user?
<LaurenceLumi> I am getting loads of ln: failed to create hard link '/var/cache/pbuilder/build/17130/var/cache/apt/archives/libustr-1.0-1_1.0.4-5_amd64.deb': File exists from a pbuilder create, what't the cause and can I ingore these?
<Faux> My artful laptop seems to have delayed network-online.target for the wifi to come up, but it hasn't delayed the DM starting.
 * Faux sighs at postfix not starting until the wifi is up; why would that even be a thing.
<rbasak> There's a bug on that I think.
<rbasak> I don't see it as particularly important (personally) though I think others were making progress in the bug. Why is postfix running on a system where the connectivity is wifi a thing?
<Faux> So I get mail from cron?
<rbasak> You don't need postfix for that.
<Faux> The actual answer is because all my machines is configured the same, although I thought it was necessary for local mail delivery like that.
<rbasak> You need a working sendmail. It doens't have to be postfix (as I suppose the name implies :-)
<rbasak> But also, cron jobs that matter on a machine with limited connectivity?
<Faux> Debian #854475 explains that postfix is configured to be After=network*.target just in case a user has changed the configuration, which is an argument I'm not a big fan of.
<ubottu> Debian bug 854475 in postfix "postfix: systemd needs postfix@.service to have "After=network.target"" [Important,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/854475
<Faux> Things run in cron jobs. I need to work out what went wrong. Until everything is running as a systemd timer, this involves digging through mail as well as journald.
<rbasak> Ultimately defaults cannot work for people with weird configurations in the general case. By definition.
<rbasak> It's override-able. You should override it.
<Faux> I could. But, as it doesn't block the DM (for me), it's not a big issue. I have overriden whatever it was that was causing it to block the DM.
<andreas> nacc: thanks for that link, reading
<andreas> looks like pulling in network-online is even frowned upon for server software
<nacc> Faux: i used to have to restart postfix all the time, whenever i would go to the office, or go home, etc. It was dumb, but postfix felt dumber for not being able to handle the network changing.
<Faux> Junk.
<nacc> Faux: it's possible that has improved since then
<Faux> The bug is pretty recent. Although iirc the C changes are trivial.
<LaurenceLumi> following one of the guides on pinning, I do #apt-get -b source debhelper
<LaurenceLumi> it compiles, but how do I correctly install it?
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: what are you actually trying to do?
<LaurenceLumi> follow this guide https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto#Recommended_alternative_to_pinning
<LaurenceLumi> actually I am trying to built imagemagick from zesty source on xenial, but I am trying to follow some of the basic guides which a full of little errors
<LaurenceLumi> I did #apt-get -b source debhelper which created to packages debhelper_10.2.2ubuntu1_all.deb  dh-systemd_10.2.2ubuntu1_all.deb
<Faux> My experience is that trying to backport anything deb/dpkg related ends in sadness; it's probably not a good idea.
<LaurenceLumi> doing #apt-get -b source -t zesty debhelper as suggested by the guide did not work at all
<LaurenceLumi> I can create packages, both using pbuilder and following the guide here https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto#Recommended_alternative_to_pinning
<LaurenceLumi> so I have lots of packages, but I am not sure how to install them probably. Not keen on destroying my machine,
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: whey can't you use debhelper in x-b?
<LaurenceLumi> what is x-b?
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: xenial-backports
<LaurenceLumi> I could, it as example to when following the guide, if I guide worked for debhelper I coudld tackle imagemagick
<LaurenceLumi> ^I choose it as an example
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: why not just use a ppa for this?
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: do you need some feature from the zesty imagemagick?
<LaurenceLumi> yes
<LaurenceLumi> yes connected-components functionality
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: why not just run zesty or artful in a VM?
<LaurenceLumi> I grabbed the source and compiled it, but I thought I should learn how do learn some of ubuntu,
<LaurenceLumi> so I am working my way through some of the suggested ways of doing things
<LaurenceLumi> so far I have setup pbuilder, and sucessfull build imagemagick_6.9.7.4+dfsg-3ubuntu1.2.dsc which gave me loads a deb files
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: ok, so istall those debs
<LaurenceLumi> but I am not sure how to install them, and wasn't in a hurry until I understood what was going on
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: you don't know how to install debs?
<LaurenceLumi> no
<LaurenceLumi> I am guessing it dpkg -i package name, but I don't understand how the depenedecy bit works
<LaurenceLumi> hence trying to follow guides
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: fwiw, you probably wanted to properly adjust the versionning of that
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: dpkg doesn't do dependency resolution itself
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: you'll need to isntall all the packages at the same time, or use somethign like gdebi
<jbicha> sudo apt install ./foo.deb to install foo is useful too (the ./ is important)
<LaurenceLumi> Ok I get it now
<nacc> jbicha: ah thanks, i forgot apt can do that
<LaurenceLumi> Ok so the guide I linked before is missing that step...
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: i feel like any guide that is about *building* packages, assumes you know what to do with packages
<LaurenceLumi> just feedback, from a newbe
<LaurenceLumi> one more question, what about the previous version of ImagaMagick I installed
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: IMO, a newbie probably should not be tryig to do this backport :)
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: at least not on their machine
<nacc> use a PPA or somethig
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: what about it?
<LaurenceLumi> actually before I go on, so as a newbie, how should I be using a PPA?
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: the backportpackage tool
<LaurenceLumi> OK, wish I found that before I started :-)
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: yeah :)
<LaurenceLumi> Ok back to hypothetical question, because I think I will investigate the backportpackage
<LaurenceLumi> apt install ./foo.deb ./bar.deb ./foofoo.deb, what about previous versions of foo bar and foofoo?
<LaurenceLumi> i.e. should I purge the previous release before attempting a manual install with deb packages
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: do you purge previous versions when you upgrade normally?
<LaurenceLumi> no, but I am not using packages directly
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: in general it should be fine. If it is a very large jump, it's possible some upgrade paths have been dropped in the new packaging.
<LaurenceLumi> Just looking backportpackage, am I right the big difference is that will load the *.deb that get build into a PPA so that apt-get will see them as normal packages to upgrade and everything works as expected, plus I can let other know about my PPA?
<LaurenceLumi> as compared to using pbuilder to build the debs?
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: it builds it in the PPA
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: nothing runs on your system at all
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: i believe it also will do the versioning correctly
<cjwatson> (note that PPA response times aren't going to be great just now as we have a lot of stuff going on in our build farm)
<nacc> cjwatson: yeah :)
<nacc> was goingn to mention that next
<LaurenceLumi> that's fine, will 100x faster, than the time I already spent, but at least I did learn something
<LaurenceLumi> maybe
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: yeah :)
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: in your case, it doesn't seem like you really needed to learn quite as much about source packages, yhou just wanted to do a backport
<LaurenceLumi> how do I make suggestions regarding guides, both the pinning and backports page don't mention the backportpackage
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: and you ca configure your ppa (before doing the backportpackage) to have xenial-backports as a dependency, so that it can build with a newer debhelper, e.g., on xenial
<LaurenceLumi> thanks nacc, I will do that
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: which pages are you referringn to?
<LaurenceLumi> this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto one and this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBackports
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: the latter is a wiki page
<LaurenceLumi> but actually the second does have
<nacc> and i think the first is too
<nacc> and the first shouldn't mention backportpackage, it's onnly about pinninng
<LaurenceLumi> but the pinning actually has an alrtenative method i.e. build from source
<LaurenceLumi> but I guess it is there,
<nacc> ugh, that's dumb
<nacc> I absolutely do not thing building a deb from source is a "recommended alternative to pinning"!
<nacc> *think
<LaurenceLumi> I agree!
<nacc> jbicha: maybe i'm wrong, though, thoughts?
<LaurenceLumi> I think that is what actually started me of whole pbuilder thing
<LaurenceLumi> when I probably wanted was backportpackage
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: yeah, i can imagine that
<jbicha> uh, there's different levels of recommendations. Ordinary users shouldn't need to build any packages, especially not low-level ones like imagemagick
<jbicha> but yeah, backportpackage is a lot easier than settings up a build environment
<nacc> jbicha: i meant specifically the pinning page recommending that users build packages from source as an alternative to pinnning (and citing libc6 as a (good?) example of such a package!)
<jbicha> uh, I think backportpackage is better than a recommendation to pin packages from a totally different Ubuntu release, yes
<jbicha> pinning may be useful where you only want one package from a large ppa
<nacc> right
<LaurenceLumi> is there a way to follow throught with that suggestion, i.e. who do I email/ping?
<nacc> i think the pinning community page shouldn't mention source packages at all
<jbicha> if you're going to work on it, you should kill or heavily edit the Pinning Methods section where it encourages people to pick and choose Ubuntu releases to install packages from
<jbicha> that's why there's that whole libc6/backports warning
<nacc> jbicha: yeah, it just seems like ... bad advice :)
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: it's a wiki page, so you just need to login and have rights
<infinity> nacc: Gah.  Wow.  That page's suggestion that "pinning libc6 doesn't work, so try backporting!" is amazingly irresponsible.
<infinity> And also shows that whoever wrote it doesn't grasp pinning.
<infinity> Cause if you pin *all* of glibc's binaries, it works great.
<infinity> Of course pinning one binary from a source package will end in tears.
<sarnold> is -that- how we get so many bug reports from folks trying to install different versions of a package in both i386 and amd64 flavours?
<nacc> infinity: yeah, it's terrible!
<nacc> sarnold: i'm starting to think it's at least part of it
<sarnold> nacc: it'd be nicest if the tools could recognize that step before taking it :)
<infinity> sarnold: Some sort of Ubuntu Clippy that pops up and says "It looks like you're trying to do something stupid"?
<infinity> "Would you like me to turn off all your bug reporting tools?"
<nacc> heh
<sarnold> infinity: haha :) I love turning off the bug reports rather than not installing the update.. hehe
<infinity> sarnold: As to your original comment, the biggest source of arch/version skew appears to be people who install arch_X from a repo, disable said repo, then wonder why things are broken.
<infinity> sarnold: When that's a PPA, I can sort of (but not overly) sympathise, but I see it a LOT with people who install from -updates, then disable -updates and file a bug report next time something breaks.
<infinity> Like, wat?
<sarnold> infinity: ohhh, that'd be hard to spot without magic version numbers..
<sarnold> oof. with -updates disabled???
<infinity> sarnold: Yep, see it a lot more than seems reasonable.  You'll see something complaining about "can't install foo because depends foo-common=1, but foo-common=1.1 is installed".
<infinity> sarnold: Which means they got 1.1 from -updates, then disabled updates, then whee.
<infinity> sarnold: And that, apparently, is our bug, not theirs.
<infinity> I really want to be able to change a package task to a person.
<sarnold> infinity: thanks for pointing it out, I like to be able to help folks along when I can, and this one ought to be cheap enough to spot
<infinity> sarnold: It tends to confuse users more than it should probably because apt spells the above "is installed" as "is to be installed".
<infinity> sarnold: Since it's reporting the final state it's trying to achieve, not the current state.
<sarnold> infinity: hrm. did I know this? I'm .. curious :)
<sarnold> infinity: of course there's loads of errors our users report that I have never seen before because users make great testers :)
#ubuntu-devel 2017-11-02
<joelkraehemann> hi
<joelkraehemann> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gsequencer/+bug/1728294
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1728294 in gsequencer (Ubuntu) "Sync gsequencer 1.1.4-1 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,New]
<joelkraehemann> does it require any special action?
<joelkraehemann> it is still unassigned.
<infinity> joelkraehemann: Looking.
<joelkraehemann> thank you infinity
<infinity> joelkraehemann: Synced.   One note, though.  Your libags.so.1.0.0 seems underlinked (unless it dlopen()s ags_thread, which I couldn't find in a quick grep).
<infinity> dpkg-shlibdeps: warning: symbol ags_mutex_manager_get_instance used by debian/libags1/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libags.so.1.0.0 found in none of the libraries
<infinity> dpkg-shlibdeps: warning: symbol ags_mutex_manager_get_application_mutex used by debian/libags1/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libags.so.1.0.0 found in none of the libraries
<infinity> Both those symbols are from ags_thread.
<joelkraehemann> circular dependency of libags.so.1 and libags_thread.so.1
<joelkraehemann> infinity: both are provided by libags
<joelkraehemann> package
<joelkraehemann> in general you have to link libags.so.1 and libags_thread.so.1 as using one of it
<blahdeblah> Any ubuntu-devel-announce moderators present?
<blahdeblah> I've just sent a notice about firewall maintenance that I'd like approved, please. :-)
<infinity> blahdeblah: Can I reject and make you fix your grammar?
<blahdeblah> absolutely
<blahdeblah> If I had bad grammar, I deserve to get rejected
<infinity> blahdeblah: (Joking, but you have an incorrect use of a reflexive pronoun, which drives me batty)
<blahdeblah> I'm usually pretty good on that - what was the error?
<infinity> "The progress of the updates will be communicated in #canonical-sysadmin
<infinity> on Freenode IRC by myself"
<infinity> Should be s/myself/me/
<blahdeblah> I had better go look up Mr. Fowler to understand why that's wrong.
<infinity> Unless you mean "I will be communicating them by myself (because no one loves me)", but then you missed the first conjugation and pronoun. :)
<blahdeblah> â« nobody loves me, everybody hates me, think I'll go & eat some worms â«
<Unit193> "Guess I'll go eat worms" is the version I know. >_>
<infinity> blahdeblah: myself is always a reflexive callback to the subject of an earlier verb.  "I kicked myself."  "He kicked himself."  "She kicked him."  "I kicked you."  Only appropriate when the subject and object are the same actor.
<dax> Unit193: "I think I'll go and eat worms" for me
<Unit193> Huh.
<infinity> blahdeblah: And never appropriate as a subject.  Only as an object.
<blahdeblah> dax: Artistic license
<dax> blahdeblah: i'm expecting it's more "three different countries"
<infinity> blahdeblah: Now that I've been a language pedant for the night, shall I accept this anyway? :)
<blahdeblah> infinity: Well, at least I didn't make the mistake of using it as a subject... ;-)
<blahdeblah> infinity: Use your judgement :-)
<infinity> blahdeblah: You did.  It's a passive subject there.
<infinity> I mean, sort of.  Depending on how you prefer to diagram sentences.
<blahdeblah> OK, here's where I put my foot down. If it's after a preposition, it ain't the subject.
<infinity> "Who is communicating updates?" "Myself" (cringe) ... "Me?"
<infinity> blahdeblah: Well, yes, not actually the subject of the verb, because passive voice, but it obeys the same rules as a subject because... Passive voice.
<infinity> (Accepted)
<blahdeblah> thanks :-D
<infinity> blahdeblah: Passive inverts subject and object, but the reflexive pronoun rules still apply, so it's "subject-esque" :P
<blahdeblah> infinity: The longer you talk about this, the less I respect your expertise. :-)
<infinity> blahdeblah: Hahaha.
<infinity> blahdeblah: I feel like that's a generally useful statement.
<cjwatson> infinity: hey, that's perfectly good dialect you're complaining about there
<infinity> cjwatson: Yes, we refer to it as "hockey player TV interview".
<cjwatson> infinity: nah, using reflexive forms for emphasis is v common in Ireland (it's borrowed from Irish grammar)
<infinity> cjwatson: Is that "myself" or "meself" in that case?
<cjwatson> That depends how you want to transcribe it :)
<infinity> cjwatson: Somehow, I can tolerate it better when it sounds silly.
<infinity> cjwatson: Just like "ain't" sounds better with a southern drawl.
<LaurenceLumi> I succesfully built the zesty release imagemagick for xenial in the ppa:laurencelumi/ppa,
<LaurenceLumi> I apt-get upgrade results in the The following packages have been kept back: etc
<LaurenceLumi> if I install it using apt-get install
<LaurenceLumi> it won't to remove a number of things, including calibre and inkscape
<LaurenceLumi> Do I need to rebuild inkscape and calibre, or is the way to resolve this?
<rbasak> You need to remove your custom imagemagick install. That should fix inkscape and calibre.
<rbasak> But you should ask in #ubuntu really. This channel is for the development of Ubuntu itself.
<LaurenceLumi> I want my new built package and a working version of Inkscape and calibre, so was sinking guidance on how to move forward not backward :-) I thought this was the correct spot to ask those kind of questions
<Unit193> LocutusOfBorg: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/remmina/1.2.0-rcgit.24-2ubuntu2 is that becuase of main?
<LocutusOfBorg> yep
<LocutusOfBorg> also because it is not building right now :p
<Unit193> Missing deps, that came in later I'd presume.
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/remmina/1.2.0-rcgit.24-2ubuntu1 hmm actually...
<jbicha> Unit193: also is anyone sure that building with the Ayatana version won't currently regress the Ubuntu & Unity sessions?
<Unit193> jbicha: I'm not sure who's looking at it, not part of -desktop.
<jbicha> that's fine, I'm just pointing out that we should keep what works until someone does look into it :)
<Unit193> Sounds unfortunate.
<jbicha> why? do you need the Ayatana version for some reason?
<jbicha> but I believe flexion is working on all that later this cycle anyway
<Unit193> Ah, nice.
<jbicha> this is disturbing, I did sudo apt install zekr and it gave me a popup using zenity to ask me to install ttf-me-quran
<jbicha> worse, I don't think ttf-me-quran was ever in Ubuntu
<jbicha> ok, so I hit ok and then it has another popup: "Do you want to leave warning messages enabled?"
<sil2100> xnox: britney on Bileto fixed \o/
<sil2100> I mean, at least it *should* be fixed, I saw 3 successful ticks now
<bdmurray> jamespage: So is ceph verified for zesty? Bug 1706566
<ubottu> bug 1706566 in ceph (Ubuntu Zesty) "[SRU] ceph 10.2.9" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1706566
<xnox> sil2100, cool =)
<xnox> coreycb, hey, for packages that are openstackish and are at 0ubuntu1 version, do we eventually sync those in from debian, when debian catches up?
<xnox> e.g. looking at example python-keystonemiddleware
<xnox> or do we keep it self packaged, because that's sane, and we will be ahead again with the next openstack release anyway.
<coreycb> xnox: well, debian development for OpenStack ceased for a while this year and just started picking back up
<coreycb> xnox: I'm in the midst of merging with debian on deps for bionic
<xnox> coreycb, ack, nice. so it is "fluid", cool.
<coreycb> xnox: yes :)
<jamespage> bdmurray: its tangled in that other bug I discovered - I can't get a clean test run atm
<bdmurray> jamespage: okay
<LaurenceLumi>  I used backportpackage to build imagemagick from zesty for xenial, this resulted  imagemagick being held back, an attempted to apt-get install imagemagick, resulted in calibre being removed. Calibre does not require a specific version of imagemagick, but the dependencies for imagemagick have changed, is this why it needs to be removed?
<jbicha> LaurenceLumi: is there a reason you don't simply upgrade to Ubuntu 17.10?
<LaurenceLumi> yes, 1. I would like to stay on 16 2. I writing a piece of software that I would like to release, that relies on a imagemagick, and I would like those users not to have to upgrade as well. :-) 3. I like to understand how things work, so maybe I can help myself or others going forward :-)
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: if you try to install calibre again, what happens?
<jbicha> 1. If you reason to stay on Ubuntu 16.04 LTS is stability, replacing system libraries with packages from outside the regular 16.04 repos doesn't help stability :|
<Laney> bdmurray: errors.u.c isn't showing the actual crash reports for me - known?
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: and "those users" you mention in 2 will have to use your PPA, which means they are not running an ubuntu-supported package anymore.
<LaurenceLumi> ok but what about point 3 :-)
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: in a pastebin, `apt show imagemagick calibre`
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: was calibre the only package apt had to remove?
<LaurenceLumi> when I try install calibre it just installs, so I am guessing that the reason it needed to be removed was not becuase of particular version but because the dependency tree was different, and remove and new install works becuase it uses the new dependency tree, could I be right?
<LaurenceLumi> no inkscape also needed to be removed, but I want to understand calibre first, then I can probably understand inkscape bymeself
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: calibre has a build-time dependency on libmagickwand-dev, and inkscape does for libmagick++-dev
<LaurenceLumi> pastebin https://pastebin.com/NkQfcgT5
<LaurenceLumi> nacc: I get that it has build-time dependency, but what I am trying to understand is how calibre if there is any run-time dependency, I can't see any
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: one of its dependencies might
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: ah it looks like you rebuilt calibre
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: so perhaps it uninstalled the old calibre?
<LaurenceLumi> I built calibre, yes upgraded the old version, but I won't to understand why, as it did not make sense
<LaurenceLumi> wanted to^
<LaurenceLumi> i.e for calibre how is the version in the ppa any different to the one found in the archive
<LaurenceLumi> from a packaging perspective (I get the code is updated slightly)
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: it's a totally different version than in xenail, right?
<LaurenceLumi> yes its a different version but how the dependencies changed, this is what I am trying to understand
<LaurenceLumi> i.e. why can't I just install the xenial version of calibre
<LaurenceLumi> ?
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: did you try? see what apt says
<LaurenceLumi> I just did apt-get install calibre=2.55.0+dfsg-1 and it installed fine
<LaurenceLumi> so was I right about the reason?
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: i don't know
<LaurenceLumi> i.e. it was just caused by a changed dependency tree, rather than a requirement for a specific version?
<LaurenceLumi> and apt-get is just being carefull?
<bdmurray> Laney: actual crash reports?
<bdmurray> Laney: oh, I see
<bdmurray> Laney: So, no not known
<LaurenceLumi> Ok I can see there is a dependency in calibre-bin, however I am trying to follow the tree from top to bottom, shouldn't there be something in calibre, that says that calibre depends on calibre-bin?
<nacc> LaurenceLumi: there is one, afaict
<LaurenceLumi> Ok I can see it, sorry, will try and figure it out now thanks
<bdmurray> Laney: its fixed now, thanks
<GunnarHj> bdmurray: Hi Brian, do you have an idea why it takes so long for language-selector 0.182 to make it from bionic-proposed to bionic-release?
<GunnarHj> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/language-selector
<sarnold> it says "test in progress" at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/bionic/update_excuses.html
<jbicha> GunnarHj: we're in the middle of doing the initial autosync from Debian plus a qt transition plus a perl upload (perl triggers many thousand autopkgtests)
<sarnold> hrm but the docs page doesn't say what "Not considered" means
<infinity> GunnarHj: We're down a cloud region, and everything's very slow and grumpy right now.  Patience.
<infinity> sarnold: "Not considered" is the opposite of "Valid candidate".   As in "nope, not migrating because reasons (see above)".
<sarnold> infinity: thanks!
<GunnarHj> sarnold, jbicha, infinity: Thanks for trying to explain. Don't understand all the implications, but accept the "patience" advice for now.
<infinity> GunnarHj: Yeah, the short answer is "everything is glacial right now due to a perfect storm of archive events (opening, some kernel livepatching, etc) that all coincided with us taking down a cloud region for redeployment".
<infinity> I guess that answer wasn't very short.
<infinity> "Patience" is better. :P
<mwhudson> part like it's 2010
<mwhudson> partY like it's 2010 dammit
<Sargun> Who is the right person to contact to get the source package of this bumped? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libnl3
<Sargun> There is a new major release for Bionic: https://github.com/thom311/libnl/releases -- It'd be nice to use that version
<xnox> Sargun, getting it updated in debian would be nice. https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/libnl3 did upstream move?
#ubuntu-devel 2017-11-03
<seb128> could somebody review the indicator-printers SRU in the artful queue? It has been waiting for a while
<seb128> doko, hey, do you think you could SRU the glibc fix for bug #1719004 to 17.1O? (https://sourceware.org/git/?p=glibc.git;a=commit;h=fe05e1cb)
<ubottu> bug 1719004 in glibc (Ubuntu) "cupsd assert failure: cupsd: ../sysdeps/unix/sysv/linux/spawni.c:368: __spawnix: Assertion `ec >= 0' failed." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1719004
<infinity> seb128: Doko it probably not who you're looking for.
<infinity> s/it/is/
<seb128> infinity, you might be interested to upload that as a SRU then? ;-)
<infinity> seb128: I'd been watching the bug, yeah.  Poked azanella to CP to the 2.26 branch, but if he doesn't do so, I'll just CP to Ubuntu/Debian.
<seb128> infinity, thanks
<infinity> seb128: I'm about 137% sure I don't want to cripple the autopkgtest infra any harder with a glibc upload before the weekend, but this one's on my TODO for next week.
<doko> mozilla currently doing the crippling ...
<infinity> doko: autopkgtest, not buildds.
<infinity> http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running <-- Check those queue depths and weep.
<andreas> hi there, if somebody has a moment, I could use a sponsorship for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-advantage-tools/+bug/1721272
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1721272 in ubuntu-advantage-tools (Ubuntu) "Create 'ua' symlink pointing at 'ubuntu-advantage'" [Medium,In progress]
<andreas> for bionic
<doko> jbicha: on MoM you commented for deborphan: can't be synced. Why?
<infinity> doko: Can't be synced until the upstream version bumps.
<doko> infinity: so no reason to do a fakesync
<infinity> doko: Well, we're in sync, do no reason indeed.
<infinity> doko: But yeah, our version is higher than Debian's because it's natively versioned, but some doofus in Debian did non-native-versioned NMUs, so 1.7.28.8-0.3 sorts lower than 1.7.28.8ubuntuX
<infinity> It'll resolve when 1.7.28.9 happens.  If it happens.
<doko> I felt like I needed more pain, addressing the oldest merges
<infinity> Hasn't has a maintainer upload since oldoldoldstable, someone should probably just roll up a bunch of pending fixes, convert to dh(1) and do a not-so-friendly upload. :P
<infinity> doko: I'm curious why MoM even shows that one, since our version is higher.  Weird.
<infinity> cjwatson: ^-- 'sup with that?
<infinity> cjwatson: Is MoM not using dpkg --compare-versions to determine these things?
<infinity> I wonder if I could fool it by just repacking that as 1.7.28.8.0-0.3
<cjwatson> let's not
<cjwatson> hm, you're going to make me remember how any of this works
<infinity> cjwatson: I apologize for any trauma.
<infinity> I find it slightly ironic that deborphan appears to be defacto orphaned but without a formal orphan bug.
<cjwatson> I think I see what's going on, ish
<cjwatson> momlib.py:get_nearest_source
<cjwatson> so it walks through sources trying to find a base
<infinity> cjwatson: I had an IRC bug report from someone else about get_nearest_source going haywire too (generating a 20MB diff against something from ancient history), but I'm trying to remember the circumstances of that one now.
<infinity> cjwatson: Oh, that one had to do with epochs differing, and MoM not just saying "hahaha, I have no idea" (which would have made more sense).
<cjwatson> get_base finds the base version that it's operating on, and it does that by just stripping off suffixes
<cjwatson> and then if get_nearest_source finds an exact match, it returns that immediately without bothering with the version sort
<infinity> cjwatson: So, sure, yes.  I get how it thinks 1.7.28.8 is the base.  What I don't get is why it's trying at all when Ubuntu has a newer version, sort-order-wise.
<infinity> cjwatson: Oh, I see, it just does them in the wrong order.
<cjwatson> I'm not saying it's correct; I'm explaining how the code gets there
<cjwatson> (I've never touched this code *at all*, so I'm a bit reluctant to just change it straight off)
<cjwatson> it probably wants to be finding the newest possible base less than the Ubuntu version
<cjwatson> <= maybe
<infinity> cjwatson: Where does this live, BTW?  I've wanted to waste some time on it here and there for my pet peeves (like the changelog reflowing that adds *&^!^ newlines at the end of "incorrect" changelogs).
<cjwatson> lp:merge-o-matic
<infinity> Of course.
<cjwatson> you are very welcome to it :)
<infinity> I don't want it.
<infinity> Unless I discover it's in Perl, C, or shell.
<infinity> But it's going to be python.
<infinity> It sure is.
<cjwatson> I've my own to-do list for it which is probably disjoint to yours ...
<infinity> Well, the proper TODO list involves making git merges not insane and scrapping MoM.
<cjwatson> there is that
<cjwatson> though something still needs to report on it
<infinity> But as I've said once already today, let's not let future pie-in-the-sky projects by our perfect blocking our good.
<cjwatson> we could ditch the "produce attempted merge" bits and keep the reporting
<cjwatson> once git merging is ready and working across the board
<infinity> LP itself does reporting too, though not in the most friendly way.
<cjwatson> yeah, that's a bit of a disaster area
<cjwatson> derived distributions /o\
<infinity> But yes, tempted to "fix" the deborphan problem by NMUing 1.7.28.8.1 to Ubuntu with some fixes for high prio bugs in the BTS, and then syncing.
<infinity> Cause it's actually an RC bug that the package has non-native versioning. :P
<infinity> (Or, would be as soon as someone tried to rebuild it)
<infinity> s/to Ubuntu/to Debian/
<infinity> Brain not braining right now.
<infinity> Oh, maybe it's not an RC bug because it's also v1 format.
 * infinity tried to remember if the strict dpkg version:format checks are v3-only.
<infinity> s/tried/tries/
<doko> cjwatson: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=880644 you are listed as the maintainer in Ubuntu. Maybe remove that package and discard the Ubuntu delta?
<ubottu> Debian bug 880644 in src:libvideo-capture-v4l-perl "libvideo-capture-v4l-perl ships an internal copy of the Frequencies module" [Normal,Open]
<doko> wondering about the origin of that package libvideo-frequencies-perl
<cjwatson> doko: I am?  AFAIK I've only ever touched it for transitions.  Do what you want.
<cjwatson> doko: The patch originated in https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=880644
<ubottu> Debian bug 880644 in src:libvideo-capture-v4l-perl "libvideo-capture-v4l-perl ships an internal copy of the Frequencies module" [Normal,Open]
<cjwatson> err
<cjwatson> doko: The patch originated in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libvideo-frequencies-perl/+bug/223815
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 223815 in libvideo-frequencies-perl (Ubuntu) "libvideo-frequencies-perl_0.03-1_all.deb installation crash" [High,Fix released]
<cjwatson> doko: So I don't have a problem with removing libvideo-frequencies-perl and dropping the delta in libvideo-capture-v4l-perl, but it's going to need Breaks/Replaces in libvideo-capture-v4l-perl until after bionic, and it'll need a scan for reverse-deps of course
<doko> cjwatson: ok, ta. will do that
<sil2100> doko: I removed some of the deprecated touch packages and published the fix for dbus-cpp
<sil2100> doko: next I'll be looking at trust-store for the boost transition
<sil2100> (also FTBFS on bionic)
<jbicha> sil2100: see LP: #1728188
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1728188 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "Don't build pulseaudio with trust-store support" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1728188
<sil2100> Yeah, I don't mean to remove it or anything
<sil2100> Just mentioning looking at the FTBFS
<doko> jamespage: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bareos has problems with our ceph version
<infinity> sil2100: I think jbicha's point was that rather than fixing it, you should nag people to get pulse to a state where we can remove it. :)
<infinity> sil2100: boost transition rebuilds are non-blocking, so there's no real urgency to fix everything Right Now.
<dmj_s76> andrewsh: Why is python-xlib so old (.14 when .20 is newest)?
<dmj_s76> I noticed just now because I got hit by a bug that was fixed six years ago upstream.
<nacc> dmj_s76: it's in sync from debian? seems like a questio for debian :)
<nacc> dmj_s76: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=855205
<ubottu> Debian bug 855205 in python-xlib "please package more recent version" [Normal,Open]
<nacc> dmj_s76: it is strange that there was an upload to unstable and testing in nthe past few months of a versio nthat is years old
<nacc> dmj_s76: it would appear the upstream moved, and perhaps the srcpkg has not been updated
<juliank> cpaelzer: are you around? I have an upload for qemu to fix proposed apt in qemu-user chroots (http://paste.ubuntu.com/25882938/, making it return EINVAL for seccomp prctl calls, picked from upstream submission), but you seem very invested in that package, so it would be great to have an ack. And if not, you'll at least know about it :)
<juliank> That's bug 1726394
<ubottu> bug 1726394 in qemu (Ubuntu) "Passes through prctl(PR_SET_SECCOMP, SECCOMP_MODE_FILTER, address)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1726394
<nacc> juliank: i doubt he's aroundn (germany tz)
<nacc> juliank: i can ping him on it on monday, though
<juliank> nacc: Well, I guess he knows now / when he's reading it. The patch is trivial, so I'll just upload it now, and then invest apt autopkgtest failures over the weekend :)
<nacc> juliank: sounds good :)
<juliank> There are some really weird autopkgtest failures.
<juliank> Is there a postgresql transition going on? -  Removing autopkgtest-satdep:armhf because I can't find postgresql-10-debversion:armhf
<sarnold> there is
<juliank> OK, good.
 * juliank likes that apt timed out on s390x
#ubuntu-devel 2017-11-04
<xnox> juliank, postgresql-10-debversion sounds like a broken update, where did you see that?
<juliank> xnox: postgresql-debversion/1.0.8-3 autopkgtest on !amd64 triggered by apt/1.6~alpha3
<juliank> in failure to setup testbed, of course
<nacc> there are a bunch of those pg10 packages that are migrating right now
<nacc> so it could be related to all of that
<nacc> and the builders catching up, etc.
<juliank> It's a bit strange that the autopkgtest failed because the package to be tested was not available, but I guess it can happen
<nacc> juliank: rmadison says it should be available, but only in bionic-proposed
<nacc> so it might be stuck
<juliank> Right, the amd64 retried with all packages from proposed
<nacc> juliank: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html#postgresql-10 is probably the blocker :/
<nacc> juliank: it's on my todo (and cpaelzer's)
<juliank> But armhf also retried using all packages from proposed, but could not find it
<juliank> Anyway, I saw that with the last transition IIRC, so I'm not worrying too much
<nacc> yeah
<cpaelzer> juliank: thanks, the upload looks good, I'll push it into the git on Monday to track it properly
<cpaelzer> juliank: I'll do some regression checks along the way, but the change seems small and safe
<cpaelzer> juliank: also while not upstream yet, the mailing list response so far seems good
<cpaelzer> lets see what the weekend can do to these long queues ...
<erle-> Why are the commands in /bin now shared objects instead of executable files?
<rbasak> erle-: I'm not sure what you mean. They are still executable files.
<erle-> rbasak, but they are of time ELF shared object instead of ELF executable
<erle-> *of type
<rbasak> I'm pretty sure that's just a consequence of the tooling you're using to report on it.
<erle-> rbasak, use Â«file /bin/cpÂ»
<erle-> you will see it is shared object in 17.10
<erle-> it was executable in 16.04
<rbasak> Yes. Like I said it's a consequence of the tooling you're using to report on it.
<rbasak> Try copying an executable from 16.04 into a 17.10 system and then see what file says.
<erle-> rbasak, I got an answer somewhere else
<erle-> they are actually shared objects
<erle-> point is that the linker can put them to random locations im memory
<erle-> it's about address randomization
<jbicha> erle-: https://codywu2010.wordpress.com/2014/11/29/about-elf-pie-pic-and-else/
<jbicha> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features#pie
<erle-> jbicha, thanks
<cjwatson> Some were PIE in 16.04 too
<cjwatson> $ lsb_release -sr; file /usr/sbin/sshd
<cjwatson> 16.04
<cjwatson> /usr/sbin/sshd: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2, for GNU/Linux 2.6.32, BuildID[sha1]=cf2da4087de886767f688f645786229131e4af0c, stripped
<cjwatson> It's just got a bit more default in the toolchain
<rbasak> erle-: oh, I see. I didn't realise that change would cause a different output from file. Thanks.
<infinity> rbasak: PIE binaries are literally type DYN, so yeah, file(1) doesn't know what to do with them.
#ubuntu-devel 2017-11-05
<tsimonq2> doko: Mind if I steal your anthy merge?
<andreas> let's say I have an ubuntu native package in the archive: package-2.0
<andreas> it has a bug I want to fix, but I can't commit to its upstream
<andreas> I'm looking at the version table at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation
<andreas> looks like my case is:
<andreas> 2.0                           2.0ubuntu0.1
<andreas> so it remains a native package in the update? How is the fix applied? I just re-tarball it after applying the fix manually? No patch file in d/patche?
<jbicha> andreas: it's helpful if you tell us what package you are wanting to update
<andreas> jbicha: ubuntu-advantage-tools
<andreas> I need to update it to version 10, and backport some fixes from version 13
<andreas> v13 is in bionic-proposed for a couple of days, looks like some big migration is going on and blocking everything
<andreas> it being a native package is messing with my head
<jbicha> well y'all should use a more sane versioning system, snapd's versioning is very non-standard but it manages to work
<andreas> hm?
<jbicha> are you going to be sruing to artful at the same time?
<andreas> jbicha: yes: t, x, z and aa. As soon as b has v13
<jbicha> I suggest version numbers like: 10.17.10.1, 10.16.10.1, 10.16.04.1, etc.
<jbicha> or 10+17.10.1 if you don't like that many ...'s
<jbicha> the trailing .1 allows someone to easily do a bugfix .2 release
<andreas> so it remains a native package?
<jbicha> yes, the native package is fine in this case
<andreas> how do I apply the fix I want? Essentially making a new tarball, as if there had been a new upstream release?
<andreas> I can't just use a new version number, there is no corresponding upstream release with that version
<jbicha> I think 'debuild -S' should make the tarball for you?
<andreas> it asks when it can't find an orig one
<andreas> but I have to apply my fixes directly, not via d/patches right
<jbicha> there's so many different possible packaging workflows it's hard for me to give you specific advice
<jbicha> yes, you won't use debian/patches/ if it's native
<andreas> ok
<jbicha> doesn't this work?
<jbicha> apt source ubuntu-advantage-tools; cd ubuntu-advantage-tools;
<jbicha> (make your changes and update debian/changelog)
<jbicha> debuild -S
<andreas> it's like I'm creating a new upstream version with my fixes, that's what is confusing me
<jbicha> that's how native packaging works
<andreas> 2.0                           2.0ubuntu0.1 <-- like this example
<andreas> from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation
<andreas> except I would use the release number in the suffix, because I'll do it for several releases
<andreas> so I would have a tarball with version "2.0ubuntu0.14.04.1" in the example above
<jbicha> the "ubuntu" in the version number is not necessary
<jbicha> please don't number the package as "2" if it is really "10"
<andreas> I won't, I was just continuing with the example
<jbicha> why don't you want to use 13 as your base instead of 10?
<andreas> it has other changes and the sru would have to start from scratch
<andreas> 10 as is was rejected and particular fixes from 13 were requested, then 10+fixes would be approved
<andreas> in particular, v13 runs tests at package build time. That's what was requested for the sru
<jbicha> sru already is starting from scratch isn't it?
<andreas> no, the sru reviewer said all that was required now was to bring those tests in to v10
<andreas> if we bring v13 instead, then there is another change in there that he has to review, that wasn't there before
<jbicha> are you sure y'all don't want the 'ua' symlink too?
<andreas> we do, and another sru will do that, but right now the pressing feature is fips support
<andreas> I also suggested we start over with v13, but it took so long to get an sru team member to look at it that it was feared it would take weeks again
<jbicha> but each SRU takes what ~2 weeks? I don't understand why you don't just do both issues at once
<jbicha> but I think all these decisions are above my paygrade ;)
<andreas> we now have the attention of an sru team member, and he is just waiting for these tests-at-build-time. That was his review point
<andreas> but this native package business is ugly
<jbicha> the native part itself is fine (with me), the tricky part is that you always need a newer version in newer supported releases
<jbicha> so maybe even a 10~17.10.1, 10~17.04.1, etc. would work
<jbicha> when sorting Debian version numbers: 10~17.10 < 10 < 10+17.10
<andreas> that was my first attempt, when artful/bionic had 10, but now that 13 is in proposed I thought I could stick with 10ubuntu
<andreas> I thought I had to signal somehow that it had ubuntu changes
<andreas> hence the "ubuntu" word in it
<andreas> again, following the security team wiki page
<jbicha> that's how the snapd version manages to work although it's odd to have xenial as the focus instead of the dev branch of Ubuntu
<jbicha> you don't need to signal that, it's an Ubuntu native package that didn't come from Debian
#ubuntu-devel 2018-10-29
<Bluefoxicy> holy crap, cp -af is non-deterministic
<Bluefoxicy> cp -af foo/. bar/.
<Bluefoxicy> if bar/qux/ is owned by your user and is r--r--r--, the FIRST run will try to copy foo/qux/baz.txt and FAIL.
<Bluefoxicy> at that point, bar/qux/ has moved from (sorry, my fault) r-xr-xr-x to rwxr-xr-x
<Bluefoxicy> yes, that's right:  cp -af changes the permissions on the directory, then fails.
<Bluefoxicy> If you run the same command again, it will succed to make the replacement.
<Bluefoxicy> english
<Bluefoxicy> whatever.  You know what I'm talking about
#ubuntu-devel 2018-10-30
<infinity> tumbleweed: Around?
<kklimonda> what's the procedure for building custom ubuntu core images that can be installed on servers, without having to go through snapcraft? I'm curious if ubuntu core is an alternative to other "container OS", but the documentation is lacking.
<kklimonda> (or rather geared towards IoT deployments)\
<LtWorf> kklimonda: i use debootstrap
<kklimonda> LtWorf: I don't think you can build Ubuntu Core images using debootstrap, given how different they are from a normal ubuntu distribution
<LtWorf> i think it's the same, just lacking systemd
<LtWorf> and very minimal
<kklimonda> are we both talking about https://www.ubuntu.com/core ?
<mwhudson> kklimonda: ubuntu-image is the thing that makes ubuntu core images
<mwhudson> kklimonda: what would you want to customize in your image?
<kklimonda> mwhudson: different kernel, specific packages, container runtimes, at this point nothing and everything - I'm just looking into various available options, thinking about future upgrades of the servers we have.
<kklimonda> at this point I'm trying to build a model of how all the ubuntu core parts fit together
<mwhudson> kklimonda: well for the most part, adding packages is just a matter of installing more snaps, having them baked into the image is mostly an optimization
<mwhudson> the kernel would be different though
<doko> tsimonq2: is LP: #1660108 still an issue with GCC 8?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1660108 in gcc-6 (Debian) "Since 6.3.0-3ubuntu1 some acc autotests fail with "atomic_base.h:390:7: error: inlining failed in call to always_inline"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1660108
<kklimonda> mwhudson: different, as in unsupported and frowned upon, or just poorly documented?
<mwhudson> kklimonda: just different
<kklimonda> mwhudson: is core even meant to compete with project atomic, rancheros etc.?
<mwhudson> kklimonda: i certainly know nothing about how the kernel snap is maintaineed
<kklimonda> mhm
<LocutusOfBorg> seb128, https://launchpad.net/~costamagnagianfranco/+archive/ubuntu/locutusofborg-ppa/+packages
<LocutusOfBorg> I uploaded the new poppler if you want to grab it :)
<LocutusOfBorg> I syncd it with the latest debian fixes, so now the delta is about two patches and one line in rules file
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg, thx, you need sponsoring or...?
<LocutusOfBorg> seb128, I need somebody who does upload it :) if you want to do the transition, please go ahead :)
<LocutusOfBorg> I think we need some symbols refresh
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg, I can have a look, is D open to upload yet?
<doko> no
<LocutusOfBorg> doko, your "no" made his connection drop!
<LocutusOfBorg> seb128, no, it is not open yet, but we should try to push when it opens :)
<seb128> LocutusOfBorg, right, I can do that, thx for the work!
<LocutusOfBorg> we can manually sync rdeps from debian, since they have lots of 0.68 fixes pushed already
<LocutusOfBorg> and fix new failures together
<LocutusOfBorg> I asked pochu to refresh symbols files and push the new version in experimental too
<seb128> thx
<chiluk> @apw, @cking, we've noticed a roughly 30% increased cpu usage of our web apps when moving from 4.17->4.18 *(mainline kernels), have you guys had any similar reports?
<udevbot> Error: "apw," is not a valid command.
<chiluk> apw, cking, we've noticed a roughly 30% increased cpu usage of our web apps when moving from 4.17->4.18 *(mainline kernels), have you guys had any similar reports?
<apw> chiluk, i have not indeed sforshee ^ ?
<chiluk> basically we discovered it when one particular cgroup cpu bound app started being throttled when we moved to 4.18...
<sforshee> chiluk: first I've heard of anything like that
<chiluk> yeah a performance regression was expected 4.14->4.15 due to kpti/meltdown/spectre fun... but we're definitely hitting something 4.17->4.18... anyhow.. ping me if you guys hear anything..
<sforshee> chiluk: the only thing that comes to mind recently that might have caused anything like that is l1tf mitigations
<chiluk> yeah I saw that.. I'll check llc hit % later today.
<chiluk> <- somehow became a performance guy in the last few weeks.
<chiluk> sforshee:  wasn't l1tf pushed into 4.19?  did that get backported onto the stable trees?
<sforshee> chiluk: I'd guess it got backported assuming the stable was maintained at that point. I don't remember exactly when all of that landed
<chiluk> yeah I'll go look it up.
<chiluk> thanks for the idea sforshee
<sforshee> chiluk: https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/l1tf.html
<tyhicks> chiluk: L1TF first landed in a mainline release in 4.19 but they landed in -stable trees, as well
<chiluk> interesting.. afaict whatever I'm hitting hit us during the 4.18 development cycle so it's unlikely to be l1tf.
<tyhicks> chiluk: additionally, you should only see a perf hit from L1TF mitigations if these web apps are running inside of VMs
<tyhicks> chiluk: the bare metal mitigation for L1TF was very simple and should have a negligible perf hit
<chiluk> yeah we're baremetal with cgroup containers in mesos... so yeah.. I knew there was a reason I ignored l1tf...
<chiluk> well if you guys hear anything with the recent release of cosmic let me know, and I'll be sure to return the favor.
<didrocks> xnox: hey, small question, do you know where is the ubiquity translation installed on disk for all languages? (I'm particularly interested in the minimal translation we ship for languages we don't fully ship on the iso; I guess it's only ubiquity ones?)
<xnox> didrocks, ubiquity assembles it's own strings, a few stock strings, and d-i strings. and yes ships it itself.
<didrocks> xnox: any particular files they are in? Like looking for "mhr" on disk only shows the slideshow files + some generic example-content and such
<didrocks> (but ok, the main info I was interested in was "everything related/we ship for those are part of ubiquity, and nothing else")
<xnox> hmmmmm
<cjwatson> Most of it should be in /var/lib/dpkg/info/ubiquity.templates IIRC
<cjwatson> Or somewhere similar (and then loaded into the debconf db of course)
<xnox> didrocks, yes, that!
<didrocks> oh right, they are coming from debconfâ¦
 * xnox just found it =)
<didrocks> thanks cjwatson & xnox :)
 * xnox is slow =)
<xnox> it's 15M templates file
<didrocks> unsurprisingly :p
<didrocks> xnox: in subiquity, how do you do anything special with the multi-layer/union fs system? Like creating the multi-layers, rebuilding the dpkg database in the end (depending on the amount of layers you touched) and anything related? Also, any doc about those? :)
<xnox> didrocks, there is nothing special about that.
<didrocks> hum, you have certainly a way to build upon the multi-layer system that you told was available at FOSDEM?
<didrocks> (when we talked about the minimal installation)
<xnox> didrocks, it's just perfectly stacked. as in bootstrap minimal squashfs, copy, mount overlay install more, unmount & copy aside, mount again (multi-lower), install more, unmount etc.
<xnox> didrocks, let me point you at the code
<xnox> thus each layer has it's own dpkg db, cause it got update.
<xnox> thus each layer has it's own dpkg db, cause it got updated.
<didrocks> ah
<didrocks> hum
<didrocks> but we are going to have a lot of layers
<didrocks> like for langpacks
<xnox> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/livecd-rootfs/trunk/view/head:/live-build/ubuntu-server/hooks/030-root-squashfs.binary
<didrocks> so, it means a lot of combinations
<xnox> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/livecd-rootfs/trunk/view/head:/live-build/ubuntu-server/hooks/031-maas-squashfs.binary
<xnox> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/livecd-rootfs/trunk/view/head:/live-build/ubuntu-server/hooks/032-installer-squashfs.binary
<xnox> didrocks, i did say, it's not gonna work to out of order slot in language packs....
<xnox> didrocks, so when discussed with e.g. seb128 we did say, one would have to pre-install the 6 language packs into the installer layer (live-boot only), and install the only required language pack, in target, from the .deb from the pool.
<xnox> it does mean, that effectively all lang packs are shipped twice.
<didrocks> not really nice
<xnox> unless one can magically reconstruct a deb out of livefs
<didrocks> can we somehow keep the pacakge names for a given layer and register them in dpkg without unpacking/running things?
<xnox> didrocks, the layers that this works for is "minimal", "full", "installer".
<didrocks> should be quite safe for langpaks
<didrocks> or just generate the now (12) top combinations
<xnox> didrocks, locales regenerated?
<xnox> you do call
<infinity> langpacks are going to have to be the top layer, so it can be peeled off before installation, and we'll have to just reinstall the deb.
<didrocks> yeah
<xnox> /usr/share/locales/install-language-pack "en" "" "$2" || true
<infinity> Anything else is a bit too magic.
<xnox> postinst
<didrocks> that's exactly where I'm going to head to
<didrocks> wasn't in my previous diagram, but as a top layer, for the languages we fully ship, doesn't sound that crazy
<xnox> infinity, for old ddebs we did have magic to reconstruct a deb, out of the filesystem, no?
<didrocks> (12 because 6*2: minimal + langpacks)
<didrocks> full*
<xnox> no, we will not do that
<infinity> xnox: Reconstructing debs is a big ick.
<xnox> ok
<infinity> It's a bit of a shame to ship them twice, but it's not really a big deal.
<xnox> minimal, full, installer (with ubiquity and langpacks in it); and then pool needs to have: ubiquity, langpacks again.
<xnox> (because oem-config, and langpacks)
<infinity> We can maybe come up with some vaguely "elegant" way to stitch together dpkg status snippets, but I wouldn't want to consider that for a first cut.
<xnox> also pool logic needs to change, not to exclude things that are already shipped.... and somehow maybe based that off the full squashfs, rather than the minimal one
<xnox> it would be nice if langpacks were innert; without maintainer scripts.
<didrocks> or minimal, full, installer (with only trads for installer) and lang-minimal-desktop-en, lang-minimal-desktop-fr, â¦ lang-full-desktop-enâ¦
<xnox> and like have triggers to trigger things at most.
<didrocks> then -{lang} are for the 6 we fully ship
<didrocks> and lang-full-desktop-en stack on top of lang-minimal-desktop-en,
<didrocks> as infinity said, at the top of the whole layer stack
<infinity> xnox: Changing langpacks to declarative with triggers would be easy, especially since we control all of them.
<infinity> xnox: But you still have the status DB to contend with.
<xnox> infinity, that's the rpm command to rebuilddb?! =)
 * xnox giggles
<infinity> didrocks: Err, why are you doing en and fr stacks?
<infinity> didrocks: That implies a user making a choice *at boot* before you stack the FSes.
<didrocks> infinity: ah, for the live sessionâ¦
<infinity> didrocks: Surely, you just want all the langpacks running in the live env.
<xnox> infinity, cause didrocks wants to ship each langpack 3 times, clearly ;-)
<didrocks> well, I don't think we want to install them at boot time from the pool eitherâ¦
<didrocks> xnox: no, they would only ship once that way
<infinity> didrocks: No, you want installer+languages in the top stack.
<xnox> didrocks, how would live session have them all?
<infinity> didrocks: And then langpack debs in the pool to install the user's selected language in the target.
<xnox> didrocks, or you want to stack live session, with a broken dpkg database?
<xnox> didrocks, ubiquity can install the langpacks during installation; the same way it currently removes redundand ones.
<xnox> didrocks, and i think installing the one you want is quicker than removing 5 you don't.
<infinity> didrocks: I get what you're trying to do, but it's not going to work.
<didrocks> yeah, but one of the goal would have been quicker installation time :p
<xnox> didrocks, installing one lang pack is quick. removing 5 is not.
<didrocks> but hem, yeah, live sessionâ¦
<infinity> xnox: Weeeeell.
<didrocks> xnox: not only the langpack, there are a lot of packages
<infinity> xnox: Installing langpacks calls localegen, that's not quick.
<xnox> can we preship that too? or not?
<didrocks> and some of the issues we currently have in ubiquity is that it's not in sync with locale-chooser on what to installer for instance :p
<infinity> That said, we could change the langpacks to ship pre-compiled locales.
<xnox> if clean-install copy this, otherwise regen.
<infinity> Not sure why we don't actually.
<xnox> didrocks, when you say "not only the langpacks" what else do you mean?
<xnox> didrocks, current minimal install is borked and we know that. but we will have minimal squashfs to copy from and desktop (full) squashfs to copy from.
<didrocks> xnox: see the live seed, dictionaries, libreoffice-something-{lang}, thunderbird-*
<xnox> then the "extra" packages to install is the langpacks + bootloader.
<infinity> And some languages pull in input methods, etc.
<didrocks> yep
<xnox> although imho we should preinstall bootloaders packages in minimal too, and and just pre-install both grub-pc & grub-efi
<infinity> Anyhow, there's no "clean" solution to that right now.
<didrocks> yeah, sounds like it
<infinity> The dpkg database being a single flat file makes it tricksy.
<infinity> Yes, we could write something to deal with that.
<xnox> there is no db.d/ true
<infinity> But I don't want that to be a blocker or even a near-future goal for stacked installers.
<xnox> didrocks, i think having minimal + desktop + installer squashfs is a win, despite the langpacks mess.
<xnox> ...
<xnox> infinity, didrocks - why do we not preinstall 6 languages by default?!
<didrocks> xnox: yeah, I wanted to go the extra mile and have something really nice, but doesn't sound like it's doable in the short term
<didrocks> because live session?
<xnox> i mean for target
<didrocks> hum, it's quite large
<didrocks> we are already taking a non negligeable amount of spaces for other things
<infinity> xnox: langpacks aren't small.  It's kinda why we have them.
<didrocks> otherwise, we would ship them in the initial debian binary package :p
<didrocks> and yeah, especially considering input methods, dictionariesâ¦
<xnox> en is 6M
<xnox> and we need en always, no?
<xnox> sorry 7M
<didrocks> counting all extra packages?
<didrocks> no, talking to Gunnahr, we don't
<didrocks> and one of the goal is to stop installing it for everyone
<xnox> maybe not, this is pack-en-base gnome-en-base
<didrocks> and dictionariesâ¦
<didrocks> look at my seed reorg, it should make clear what we install for each language
<didrocks> also, there are some dep chains IIRC
<xnox> didrocks, just make them snaps
<didrocks> like if we install libreoffice-{lang} unconditionnally
<didrocks> this pulls back libreoffice
<didrocks> contradicting minimal :p
<didrocks> xnox: sure, note that I said "we are already taking a non negligeable amount of spaces for *other* things" ;)
<xnox> didrocks, infinity - i think there are two options. Preinstall langpacks in minimal squashfs; stack desktop; live -> remove langpacks (existing codepaths really)
<xnox> or have clean minimal, clean desktop, and preinstall langpacks in live; and install langpacks from /pool to /target.
<didrocks> I guess installing what's needed is what makes the most sense, as we are going to rerun locale-gen anyway in both cases?
<xnox> and preinstall in minimal squashfs, is actually the path of least resistance / least change, imho.
<didrocks> why not in the live one? sounds like we want to keep it on top if we install what needed afterwards
<didrocks> remember that we can't install everything langpack-related in minimal, due to deps on libreoffice, thunderbirdâ¦
<didrocks> or even, keeping a "default language" stack, maybe on top of everything? dunno yet
<didrocks> anyway, at least, I guess my dream is broken :p but thanks for the info and code pointer xnox & infinity
<xnox> didrocks, preinstall language-pack-base-[6 langs] in minimal; preinstall thunderbird-locale-[6 langs] in desktop; live has no new langpacks.
<didrocks> xnox: why it it better than its own layer on top?
<xnox> didrocks, then ubiquity removes un-needed langpacks as it did before.
<didrocks> ah, for removing
<xnox> didrocks, because you don't need to ship a second copy in the pool, this way.
<didrocks> hum, unsure if it's better than installing
<didrocks> true
<didrocks> but 5 locale-gen calls potentially instead of one
<didrocks> and more packages to remove
<xnox> didrocks, and minimal, is slightly faster than now, as it only removes langpacks; and doesn't need to remove e.g. thunderbird packs.
<didrocks> yep
<xnox> it should be just one locale-gen call.
<xnox> cause it should be trigger based, on remove; just like kernels....
<didrocks> is it really a trigger, not posinst? I remember to have seen it running multiple times on upgrade
<didrocks> ok, need to think about it anyway, but good food for thoughts :)
<xnox> if it runs multiple times, we can fix that, we have triggers tech to make it a single call per transaction.
<xnox> minor bug
<didrocks> I wonder how we could keep clear definition of what's needed langpack-wise
<didrocks> and share that with check-local-support
<didrocks> (as now, the definition of a complete locale is going to be split in 2 places)
<xnox> didrocks, also need to check if delta-squashfs can be actually generated for all cases; and how big they are.
<xnox> didrocks, by doing reverse-stacking; e.g. make the big-fat all in one squashfs; and generate delta squashfs with things removed.
<xnox> as in negate 5 langauges; times 6;
<didrocks> times 6, not times 2 ?
<didrocks> (minimal and full)
<xnox> and again negate desktop down to minimal and negate 5 languages; times 6
<didrocks> but it's a good idea :)
<xnox> no idea if it works
<rfleming> sarnold: (responding to your message from last week) You say you're skeptical of userspace nfs ... I'd love to have it so I can mount to my NAS on demand through Deja Dup :)
<xnox> cause overlayfs squashfs for removals, i wasn't sure it was working right.
<rfleming> sarnold: or through nautilus
<didrocks> xnox: sounds like an interesting things to try out
<didrocks> doesn't impact us on doing the langpacks in minimal + full stack as decided
<sarnold> rfleming: and 'mount -t nfs -osoft,rw nas:/exports/home/fleming /home/rfleming/nas' doesn't do the trick?
<didrocks> and replace the removal part with this if we see it works
<rfleming> sarnold: it does... but I have to do it.  duplicity/deja-dup does backups whenever it feels like it.  I'm also using it for my laptop :)
<rfleming> sarnold: maybe I'm just salty because Windows CIFS is better implemented in nautilus than NFS is :)
<xnox> didrocks, "as decided" *eyebrow*
<xnox> didrocks, deciding things without a feasible implementation?! interesting
<didrocks> xnox: ? it's exactly what you wrote: "preinstall language-pack-base-[6 langs] in minimal; preinstall thunderbird-locale-[6 langs] in desktop; live has no new langpacks"
<didrocks> this is shipping "the langpacks in minimal and in full" stacks
<xnox> didrocks, so far, this is all madness =)
<didrocks> why would that be different to what is currently in server?
<didrocks> (with subiquity)
<xnox> didrocks, server has no langpacks
<didrocks> you are that afraid by the size of each stack?
<xnox> no
<xnox> it's just genuinely not useful
<xnox> we do locale, and keyboard setup.
<xnox> that's it.
<didrocks> yeah, but this is not "without a feasible implementation" then
<didrocks> (I'm only talking about that part here, then a second step is to look at your negative langpacks squashfs delta idea)
<xnox> didrocks, langpacks have never been stacked to-date. the only stacking we did was strict supersets, in order, not this tree of things.
<didrocks> it's going still to be strict supersets?
<didrocks> live
<didrocks> full desktpo
<didrocks> minimal desktop
<xnox> strict supersets should work, yes.
<didrocks> with full & minimal having langpacks for the 6 shipped langs
<xnox> didrocks, also, let's stop calling it live; but call it `installer`
<didrocks> yeah, that's the part I set to "decided" :p
<xnox> cause that matches e.g. subiquity iso.
<didrocks> agreed
<xnox> didrocks, and installing langpacks from /pool is imho "cleaner"
<xnox> but time/disk-space
<xnox> but time/image-space
<didrocks> yeah
<didrocks> let's see once this "default stacks" are here if we can look at the negative delta and also their impact on disk size, it's just an install time optimization in the end as it's the "same" than removing debs, but pre-generated
<shadeslayer> hey hey, anyone know why adding a library path (/usr/lib/aarch64-linux-gnu/mali-egl/) to /etc/ld.so.conf.d/01_mali.conf doesn't work?
<shadeslayer> when I have lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 13 Jun 30  2015 /usr/lib/aarch64-linux-gnu/mali-egl/libEGL.so.1 -> libEGL.so.1.4
<shadeslayer> ( all the paths are valid fwiw )
<sarnold> namei -l on that path look fine?
<sarnold> how are you determining that it didn't work?
<ahasenack> shadeslayer: did you run ldconfig after making that change?
<shadeslayer> ahasenack: yes
<shadeslayer> sarnold: I determined it didn't work because ldconfig -p still points libEGL.so.1 to /usr/lib/aarch64-linux-gnu/libEGL.so.1
<shadeslayer> sarnold: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/JtsSnc78V9/
<ahasenack> shadeslayer: can you try ldd on a binary that is linked with that lib?
<ahasenack> and do you have only one libEGL in the output of ldconfig -p?
<shadeslayer> ahasenack: yeah, ldd says         libGLESv2.so.2 => /usr/lib/aarch64-linux-gnu/libGLESv2.so.2 (0x0000007fb6f8b000)
<shadeslayer> ahasenack: sarnold so if I export LD_LIBRARY_PATH to the extra path, then it works
<ahasenack> shadeslayer: does your /etc/ld.so.conf have an include directive for /etc/ld.so.conf.d/*.conf ?
<shadeslayer> ahasenack: yes
<shadeslayer> and I've added the 01_mali.conf in /etc/ld.so.conf.d/
<ahasenack> can you try adding the path directly to /etc/ld.so.conf instead of the file inside the .d directory?
<tjaalton> shadeslayer: /usr/lib/aarch64-linux-gnu/libEGL.so.1 is from libglvnd and I doubt you can override that other than by using a diversion
<shadeslayer> tjaalton: but I also have the exact same issue with GLESv2.so
<tjaalton> same thing
<shadeslayer> ah damn
<shadeslayer> tjaalton: why is that the case?
<shadeslayer> tjaalton: I essentially worked around it by setting LD_LIBRARY_PATH and setting my mali-egl dir in front of everything
<tjaalton> the ld.so.conf trick only worked when both were in a subdir
<shadeslayer> I see
<tjaalton> so it works?
<shadeslayer> tjaalton: with the env variable
<tjaalton> ok
<tjaalton> nvidia-340 migrated to diversions because of this
<tjaalton> too bad only newer nvidia blobs support glvnd
<tjaalton> not amdgpu-pro, not any of the arm stuff
<shadeslayer> tjaalton: I'm still confused as to *why* this is a issue :)
<tjaalton> shadeslayer: ldconfig, it used to work when mesa & blobs put their libs in a separate directory, and then that directory was added to a ld.so.conf.d snippet via alternatives
<tjaalton> depending on which one you chose, the correct set of libs was loaded
<shadeslayer> and now it prefers everything in /usr/lib/arch-tripet over everything in a subdir?
<tjaalton> yes
<shadeslayer> I see!
<shadeslayer> tjaalton: thanks for the info :)
<tjaalton> yw
<shadeslayer> I find it incredibly frustrating though
<shadeslayer> oh well
<tjaalton> which package installs stuff in /usr/lib/../mali-egl?
<shadeslayer> tjaalton: I'm making my own
<shadeslayer> tjaalton: it's essentially this https://github.com/netrunner-pine64/pine64-mali-x11
<shadeslayer> but for a new board on Ubuntu 18.04
<tjaalton> so make it use dpkg diversions
<shadeslayer> ack
<sarnold> shadeslayer,tjaalton, aha :) thanks for the information
#ubuntu-devel 2018-10-31
<seb128> rbasak, hey, could you have a look to the bolt SRU to bionic if you do SRU reviews today? it's needed to unblock the fwdup SRU and also fix some regression from the previous SRU
<doko> jamespage: please could you have a look at the openvswitch ftbfs in disco on amd64? blocking the python3.7 transition
<seb128> rbasak, oh, also yaru-theme to cosmic if you can, we want to get that one out of the way to be able to follow with another SRU with other changes which we preferred to not bundle with the fixes
<jamespage> doko: ah the notoriously racey under load test suite of ovs
<jamespage> doko: have you tried a rebuild?
<doko> no
<doko> tsimonq2, xnox: please could you have a look at https://launchpadlibrarian.net/395331465/buildlog_ubuntu-disco-i386.ecflow_4.10.0-2ubuntu1_BUILDING.txt.gz ?
<seb128> bdmurray, hey, I commented on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evince/+bug/1790609/comments/3 , let me know if that makes sense/is good enough
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1790609 in evince (Ubuntu Bionic) "Update evince to 3.28.4" [Medium,New]
<rbasak> Does anyone know why debian-goodies is in server-ship? We're considering dropping it.
<rbasak> What does "Task-Key" at the top of a seed that is also a task actually mean? Is that defined anywhere?
<cjwatson> rbasak: It turns into a Key field in the task that's generated by ubuntu-seeds.pl in the tasksel source package; Key is defined in tasksel/README, and indicates that if the key packages aren't available then the task won't be shown
<rbasak> cjwatson: thanks! The server seed lists screen (only) as key. I guess we'll need to change that if we drop screen (in favour of tmux) from there then.
<rbasak> ahasenack: FYI: ^
<cjwatson> rbasak: I expect so.  Somebody should also do 'rm -rf ubuntu-tasks && make ubuntu-tasks' (IIRC) in tasksel and upload it, if you do.
<rbasak> ack, thanks
<bdmurray> seb128: While the upstream issue says it will be fixed in gs 9.24 there isn't any indication in the gs changelog that the specific issue was fixed and the upstream security bug is still private hence my concern.
<seb128> bdmurray, well, even if it was not fixed, the current package has that option on so the SRU is not a change of behaviour or a regression
<seb128> bdmurray, also we have apparmor protection around the thumbnailer as a second safety
<seb128> mdeslaur, jdstrand, ^ maybe you can weight in on whether it's fine to keep the evince ps code enable (see comments on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evince/+bug/1790609)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1790609 in evince (Ubuntu Bionic) "Update evince to 3.28.4" [Medium,New]
<mdeslaur> depends if people still want to read postscript documents or not
<mdeslaur> I'm comment in the bug
<mdeslaur> seb128: commented
<bdmurray> mdeslaur: ack, thanks
<seb128> mdeslaur, thx
<seb128> bdmurray, mdeslaur, oh, and again in case it's not clear, we don't "re-enable ps" in Ubuntu, ps is enabled and was never turned off for us, that's a new default from the upstream update from that SRU which we didn't follow
<seb128> so we don't create any extra risk compared to what is today in cosmic
<mdeslaur> yes, but we're manually re-enabling something that upstream decided shouldn't be turned on
<mdeslaur> which I'm sure someone will tweet about at some point
<seb128> let's see if upstream keep it this way
<seb128> they turned if off "until ghostscript is fixed"
<seb128> but yeah, it's not ideal
<seb128> it's one of those case or whether your desktop is useful or it's secure :p
<doko> LocutusOfBorg: could you prepare a new virtualbox for disco?
<dupondje> mmm, shim-signed 1.37~18.04.2+15+1533136590.3beb971-0ubuntu1 might introduce some regression ...
<dupondje> "Could not delete variable: No space left on device"
<dupondje> reboot, downgrade to 1.34.9.2+13-0ubuntu2, and no errors
<dupondje> is that a bug on grub/shim? Then i'll report
<sil2100> rbasak: hey! You done with your SRU work for today?
<rbasak> sil2100: not yet. I've had a few interrupts. I expect to get back to it in about twenty minutes.
<rbasak> sil2100: but please don't hold back the queue is rather long :)
<rbasak> I'll let you know what I'm taking to avoid duplicate work.
<seb128> rbasak, did you see my ping in the morning about reviewing bolt (bionic)
<rbasak> seb128: I did. I'll try to get to it today (I was doing releases first)
<sil2100> rbasak: thanks! ;)
<seb128> rbasak, k, thx, I'm dropping off IRC/travelling but I'm going to look at the bug later in question there is any question
<rbasak> OK
<rbasak> sil2100: looking at releasing parted, virt-manager, postfix, apache2 and exim4 in Bionic.
<rbasak> sil2100, vorlon: it's not clear to me whether to force-badtest usdisk2 for parted or what :-/
<rbasak> sil2100: looking at the Xenial queue now.
<rbasak> sil2100: now on the Bionic queue (I'm skipping the feature work in the Xenial queue as they tend to take a long time to review and I'll be EOD soon)
<rbasak> doko: could you help with https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/anki/+bug/1762593/comments/11 please?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1762593 in anki (Ubuntu Bionic) "anki crashed with ModuleNotFoundError in /usr/share/anki/anki/mpv.py: No module named 'distutils.spawn'" [High,Incomplete]
<LocutusOfBorg> doko, yes
<sil2100> rbasak: ok, thanks! I'll be releasing the python packages for cosmic as I have confirmed they're good to go
<rbasak> sil2100: I'm EOD now. I flagged a possible issue in my review for bolt, but it's incomplete. Notes in the bug. If you're able to take over, please do.
<rbasak> (I see no reason to stay late to fix that as I think I need an answer before being able to accept)
<doko> rbasak: yes, once the archive is open
<mwhudson> er update_excuses appears to be linking to test runs that autopkgtest.u.c doesn't know about?
#ubuntu-devel 2018-11-01
<infinity> mwhudson: Example?
<infinity> stgraber:
<infinity> + lxc launch ubuntu-daily:disco/amd64 docker -c security.nesting=true
<infinity> Creating docker
<infinity> Error: Failed container creation: The requested image couldn't be found
<infinity> stgraber: ^-- Is that on us or you?
<mwhudson> infinity: it seems to be fixed now
<mwhudson> infinity: we don't have cloud images yet do we?
<mwhudson> xnox: is that boost::python soname change going to turn up in debian at some point?
<mwhudson> i don't know if i should be forwarding all the patches i've made because of it along
<mwhudson> ok maybe i won't locally testbuild this package that took four hours to fail on launchpad
<infinity> mwhudson: Local might be a lot faster, if you've not doing it in a VM.
<infinity> mwhudson: l1tf has crippled our cloud.
<mwhudson> infinity: i guess if the s390x build passes in my ppa i'll upload it :)
<infinity> mwhudson: I'm still waiting on my s390x laptop in the mail.
<mwhudson> infinity: did you buy a power9 machine in the end?
<infinity> mwhudson: I don't have a p9, no.  doko bought one for home use, I believe.
<mwhudson> you were looking into it though?
<infinity> Not seriously.  My place is too small for server-class hardware.  Would be too loud, probably.
<infinity> Unless they have a desktop part that can be cooled quietly now, I haven't looked.
<mwhudson> ah ok
<mwhudson> i wonder if i could put something in the half rack at my coworking space if i asked nicely...
<infinity> Hrm, actually, https://raptorcs.com/TALOSIILITE/ might be something I could cool with a reasonably quiet solution.
<infinity> Still a lot of money, though.
<infinity> Like, an obnoxious amount of money.
<infinity> Need POWER9 to become popular enough that the likes of MSI and ASUS make board and drive prices down.
<ginggs> "now more affordable than ever"
<doko> not yet arrived
<doko> infinity: feeling bored and want to look at the vim ftbfs?
<infinity> doko: There is no vim FTBFS.
<infinity> doko: Or did you just upload a rebuild?
<infinity> doko: So you did.  But also, there's no FTBFS. :P
<infinity> doko: It would have been nice if you'd let the previous one migrate first, though.
<doko> no-change uploads ...
<doko> apparently succeeded with a give-back. now docker.io autopkg test failures
<infinity> Yeah, that's known.
<infinity> I'll bump my hint to ignore that for now.
<infinity> Also going to resurrent the old vim after checking an old excuses to make sure it also only had the docker regression.
<doko> rbasak: updated the anki issue
<infinity> + SNAPPY_STORE_NO_CDN=1 snap download --channel=stable/ubuntu-19.04 gnome-3-26-1604
<infinity> error: cannot download snap "gnome-3-26-1604": no snap revision available as specified
<infinity> Laney: ^-- Who's in charge of making sure that's a thing?
<infinity> willcooke: ^
<Laney> I dunno, probably kenvandine
<infinity> kenvandine: ^
<Laney> I guess that could be in NRCP, and/or something that the release team can do - should be scriptable I'd have thought
<Laney> unless it involves clicking on a web sight
<infinity> Probably scriptable.  Permissions could be an issue.
<infinity> But should likely be there as a "bug so-and-so" task at least.
<infinity> I assume I'll have the same issue with lxd's snap when I try a server build.
<Laney> That becomes annoying across multiple flavours
<infinity> mwhudson: Oh, will I also have issues with the subiquity snap?
 * infinity asked, after queueing up a build. :P
<willcooke> yeah ken I think
<willcooke> you're up early infinity
<mwhudson> infinity: don't think so
<mwhudson> willcooke: i need to reply to your mail
<willcooke> thx mwhudson
<infinity> willcooke: Did you just assume my timezone?
<infinity> mwhudson: Does subiquity not pull from a per-release channel like the other things do, or have you already published something to 19.04?
<willcooke> infinity, I'm hearing that you don't like me asking about your timezone, and I will be mindful of the impact of my assumptions in the future
<infinity> willcooke: That sensitivity training is really paying off.
<willcooke> :D
<mwhudson> infinity: i don't think it pulls from the per-release channel
<mwhudson> infinity: i guess you'll find out!
<infinity> mwhudson: Oh, you just use snap download.  How... Novel.
<infinity> (with no qualifiers)
<mwhudson> i am to innovate
<mwhudson> *aim
<Laney> I thought that was required by Steve's policy
<infinity> It is.
<infinity> But subiquity predates that policy by a lot.
<infinity> It's also a unique snowflake in that it's on *images*, but not the installed system.
<infinity> Anyhow, we should definitely sort out how to scrape a list of all snaps that are included in default installs of all flavours, how to script publishing them to ubuntu-XX.XX, and for bonus points, how to get some release people permissions to do that.
<infinity> Cause running another command or 7 during opening is fine, blocking ISO builds on poking more people sucks.
<Laney> for snap in $(awk '/seed/ { print $1 }' ~ubuntu-archive/public_html/germinate-output/*.disco/all.snaps); do mangle_the_snap ${snap}; done
<Laney> This becomes more interesting if there's ever an upstream published snap in there
<infinity> I thought the magic policy didn't allow that.
<infinity> Or maybe I misread that bit.
<Laney> "a snap should have as its publisher either the upstream, or the Ubuntu developer community"
<infinity> Ahh, well then.
<infinity> Fun indeed if we have to manage channels, or hamstring our own process while we beg them to.
<rbasak> doko: thanks!
<infinity> Wimpress: I assume you're going to have similar snap issues in MATE, unless you've already taken care of it.
<infinity> Wimpress: (See above, re things needing to be published to the right ubuntu-19.04 channel)
<alkisg> Hi, this allows one to install ubuntu 32bit in uefi mode: (1) boot 64bit live cd under uefi, (2) at the grub menu, remove the 64bit cd and insert the 32bit cd, (3) continue booting.
<alkisg> My question is, how hard would it be to have grub-efi-amd64 in the 32bit live CDs, so that they boot under uefi directly?
<infinity> alkisg: There are no 32-bit CDs anymore.
<alkisg> infinity: for all flavors? 18.04 is the last one that ships them?
<infinity> alkisg: For most.
 * alkisg is using ubuntu mate
<infinity> alkisg: MATE 18.10 was amd64-only.
<alkisg> But Ubuntu MATE 18.04.5 will still ship for 32bit, right?
<infinity> Yes.
<alkisg> It'd be nice to have it bootable under uefi...
<infinity> But we're not likely to make changes like that in a point release.
<alkisg> Gotcha
<alkisg> Thank you
<infinity> We also don't want to encourage people to install i386, especially on amd64 hardware.
<infinity> As we're evaluating removing it entirely.
<alkisg> In some cases it's still necessary unfortunately
<alkisg> I.e. when the 64bit machine is a template for netbooting 32bit machines (ltsp)
<infinity> Long Mode has been around as long as Ubuntu itself has.
<infinity> Netbooting 14 year old machines is noble, but eventually, we're going to drop support for them.
<alkisg> Sure, it's understandable, but until schools get 64bit hardware we'll just have to make do
<infinity> We've already dropped support for most 32-bit x86 just by virtue of changing our baseline to i686 w/ PAE.
<alkisg> We still have like 10000 of them still running ubuntu mate 18.04 32 bit
<infinity> The gap between i686+PAE and i686+LM is only a few years of usable hardware.
<alkisg> Few years = 10000 pcs, unfortunately :)
<alkisg> Pentium 4's, mostly
<infinity> Sure, it sucks to have hardware from that era that you want supported forever, but forever just isn't realistic is all I'm saying. :/
<alkisg> Understandable; I'm not asking for any policy changes
<infinity> And P4s are costing you more in power than you know.  You should maybe look into pushing for replacements on that basis.
<alkisg> We'll make do with what you guys offer
<infinity> The P4 eats power like mad.
<alkisg> Unfortunately the organizations that maintain the schools hardware don't really understand power economics
<infinity> :(
<infinity> Unfortunate indeed.
<alkisg> Some times the money for those 2 (computers vs electricity) even come from different ministries
<infinity> Cause running a P4 for over a decade probably wasted enough power to replace the machine twice over with a low power all-in-one AMD or Intel laptop-cpu-in-a-desktop-formfactor type thing.
<alkisg> So it's extremely hard to convince a ministry to pay money so that it saves more money from the other ministry
<infinity> I hear you.  There's nothing worse than budget politics.  In either government or corporations.
<infinity> Trying to get A to pay B's bills is right up there with insanity like "use all your budget or we won't give you any next year" and similar things that make NO SENSE to people just trying to be cost-effective.
<alkisg> Exactly... actually the main reason we managed to get ubuntu to so many PCs was because they didn't bother to support their hardware/software, so ubuntu/ltsp was the only thing that worked there :)
<alkisg> The good thing was that even when some schools bought newer computers, they opted again for ubuntu/ltsp
<infinity> alkisg: Anyhow, I make no guarantees that we're dropping i386 right away, but it's going to happen "soon", so you've either got 4 years (6 with ESM) of support left for 18.04 or, if you're really lucky, 6 (8 w/ ESM) for 20.04.
<infinity> alkisg: Knowing that, it's best you start talking to people about hardware replacements sooner rather than later, given how slowly governments move when you start talking about money. :P
 * alkisg hopes that's more than enough
<alkisg> Ouch, ubiquity tried to install grub-efi-amd64-signed, which isn't available for i386, instead of grub-efi-amd64. Oh well.
<alkisg> Oh it checks /sys/firmware/efi/fw_platform_size instead of `dpkg --print-architecture`... I'll sed it :)
<cjwatson> It has to check the firmware arch, because the bitness of grub-efi-* has to match the bitness of the firmware, not the bitness of userspace.
<alkisg> cjwatson: it's amd64 in both cases; the difference is in 'signed' vs not
<alkisg> And -signed doesn't exist in i386 installations at all
<cjwatson> Right, but dpkg --print-architecture would absolutely be wrong.
<cjwatson> Unless you're doing that just for the purpose of dropping the -signed part.
<cjwatson> Still needs to check the fw bitness because grub-efi-ia32 is a thing too.
<cjwatson> (albeit a pretty undermaintained thing)
<infinity> Now, a fair argument could be made that amd64-signed should exist on i386 too.
<infinity> But that ship has sailed for bionic.
<infinity> Although, we also don't sign i386 kernels, so meh.
 * alkisg just removed the -signed part there and waits to see if ubiquity will now succeed...  i.e. sudo sed 's/-signed"/"/' -i /user/share/grub-installer/grub-installer
<alkisg> Meh. Got past that part, failed a bit later, "EFI variables are not supported on this system". Probably not worth the trouble. :)
<infinity> mwhudson: Hrm, your server-live filesystem build broke in a spectacular way. :P
<infinity> + chroot binary/boot/squashfs.dir apt-get update
<infinity> chroot: failed to run command 'apt-get': No such file or directory
<infinity> Well done.
<alkisg> So, CONFIG_EFI_MIXED isn't enabled on 32bits, and it's causing efivars to be disabled... http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/1403.0/01370.html
<xnox> ew
<doko> cpaelzer: postgresql-10 shows some triggered autopkg test failures in disco
<infinity> doko, cpaelzer: postgresql-common needs to recognize 19.04... Uploading just that fix for now to unblock the world, but we probably also want to transition to psql-11 later in the cycle to match buster.
<kenvandine> infinity: i'll get that track opened for all the seeded snaps
<infinity> kenvandine: All, all, or all the Ubuntu ones?
<infinity> kenvandine: (MATE and Budgie have some too, unsure if you have permissions there)
<kenvandine> all the ones we seed for desktop
<kenvandine> i shouldn't have permissions for those
<infinity> Kay.
<kenvandine> infinity: done
<kenvandine> infinity: i created stable/ubuntu-19.04 tracks for gnome-3-26-1604 gtk-common-themes gnome-logs gnome-calculator gnome-characters gnome-system-monitor
<infinity> kenvandine: Ta.
<stgraber> infinity: ubuntu-daily:disco is the Ubuntu cloud image in the daily stream, so that's on foundations
<infinity> stgraber: Kay.
<infinity> stgraber: Also, do you need to make a stable/ubuntu-19.04 track for lxd for image buildy purposes?
<infinity> stgraber: (If you already have, ignore me, I haven't checked)
<stgraber> infinity: done already, juliank/rcj went to complain about that yesterday :)
<infinity> stgraber: Kay. :)
<infinity> How do I even check that?
<infinity> 'snap info lxd' is amazingly verbose, but doesn't seem to show me THAT bit of info.
<rcj> infinity: the only way I can tell is by running `snap download --channel stable/ubuntu-19.04 lxd` successfully.
<stgraber> infinity: other than through snap refresh, no idea, it doesn't even show up on rev list or anything on my side because it's an open+closed channel
<rcj> If you aren't the publisher of the snap I don't think we can see it
<stgraber> ah yeah, download would work
<stgraber> rcj: even as the publisher, once it's closed, it's not particularly visible :)
<rcj> interesting
<infinity> kenvandine: Huzzah, ubuntu-desktop ISOs built after you fixed that. Thanks!
<kenvandine> infinity: great, no problem
<coreycb> sil2100: hi o/ we have 3 (small) uploads in the cosmic unapproved queue that are urgent for openstack. any chance you could take a look?
<cpaelzer> infinity: doko: ahasenack: yes we want pg-11 eventually and 19.04 must be known
<cpaelzer> ahasenack: since I'm away until monday would you check if we can help infinity atm?
<ahasenack> someone said he was fixing it, no?
 * ahasenack checks history
<ahasenack> infinity: do you still need something right now for postgresql-common?
<infinity> ahasenack: No, I did it.
<ahasenack> ok
<vorlon> rbasak: udisks2 (sorry, was off yesterday) - looks to me like someone should've bumped the hint when publishing 2.7.6-3ubuntu0.2...
<rbasak> vorlon: the thing is I had only gone as far as determining that the failures weren't caused by an SRU being proposed. To add or bump a force-badtest I have to additionally investigate the rdeps failures themselves, and that's a much more significant effort. It didn't seem appropriate to block releasing an SRU on that.
<rbasak> vorlon: based on the history it looks like something changed causing the test to start failing.
<rbasak> So a force-badtest might not be appropriate. The positive result might be valid for all I know.
<vorlon> rbasak: the tests were already failing with 0.1 because of a regression outside of the udisks2 package, and a badtest hint was added for it.  Then 0.2 was SRUed, and the tests were still failing, and it was released without the hint being updated
<vorlon> if it was good enough to ignore the test failures for the previous revision of udisks2 and to allow this SRU to be released with these failures, it's good enough to ignore them for revdeps also
<rbasak> vorlon: looks like you've looked deeper than I did yesterday, thanks. I think I'm raising more of a process point though - it seems burdensome to add force-badtests to get the excuses clear before releasing an SRU. Perhaps this should be wider than the SRU team to get things through quicker - uploaders could do the investigation. Otherwise it seems that I make very little progress during an SRU shift.
<vorlon> rbasak: the only reason it's burdensome here is because someone /previously/ released a udisks2 SRU without updating the hint.  In this case it turns out that was a security update, which is a separate problem (we mean to be running autopkgtests for the security proposed ppa but this isn't implemented yet).  But if the system is working well, at the time a member of the team decides that an
<vorlon> autopkgtest failure is ignorable, that gets documented with a badtest hint, so that later SRUs don't get slowed down by it
<vorlon> rbasak: also in this case I knew udisks2 was a problematic package, so I grepped the existing hints file to find the previous hint that hadn't been updated
<coreycb> tjaalton: vorlon: I think sil2100 may be out so figured i'd ask the friday folks. we have 3 (small) uploads in the cosmic unapproved queue that are urgent for openstack. any chance you could take a look? we also would like to get bug 1778771 released to bionic-updates if possible before friday.
<ubottu> bug 1778771 in horizon (Ubuntu Bionic) "Backups panel is visible even if enable_backup is False" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1778771
<vorlon> coreycb: which are the urgent ones in cosmic unapproved?
<coreycb> vorlon: that would be useful :) cinder, barbican and aodh
<vorlon> coreycb: test case on LP: #1799406 is unclear, can you please flesh that out?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1799406 in Aodh "Alarms fail on Rocky" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1799406
<coreycb> vorlon: ok that's all set now
<dosaboy> vorlon: hey, if i may ... bionic sru in lp 1778771 has been verified and baking for > 7 days any chance we can get it out/
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1778771 in Ubuntu Cloud Archive queens "Backups panel is visible even if enable_backup is False" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1778771
<vorlon> dosaboy: dude I released that a whole 9 minutes ago
<dosaboy> vorlon: whoooooah
<vorlon> ;)
<dosaboy> thanks!
<vorlon> coreycb: LP: #1798917 also lacks a test case
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1798917 in cinder (Ubuntu) "[SRU] Cinder backup of a volume is in error state with fail_reason: data must be bytes" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798917
<coreycb> vorlon: it has one it's just short
<vorlon> oh :)
<vorlon> ok
<mwhudson> infinity: whaat
<mwhudson> infinity: ok i have no idea why that broke
#ubuntu-devel 2018-11-02
<doko> jamespage: please have a look at https://launchpadlibrarian.net/395695269/buildlog_ubuntu-disco-amd64.glance_2%3A17.0.0-0ubuntu5_BUILDING.txt.gz
<doko> unfortunately glance has an upper dependency: python3 (<< 3.7)
<jamespage> doko: looking
<jamespage> I think the issues are fixed upstream so I'll need to shove in a snapshot
<jamespage> doko: OK if i do an upload for openstack-pkg-tools? will avoid a copy/paste d/rules change across all of the openstack packages...
<doko> jamespage: sure
<jamespage> doko: glance with py37 compat uploaded as well
<doko> jamespage: https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-disco/disco/s390x/g/glance/20181102_114002_2d92b@/log.gz shebangs-py3 fails
<infinity> autopkgtest [11:55:09]: test glance-shebangs-py3: [-----------------------
<infinity> ERROR: shebang '#!/usr/bin/python3.6' not found in /usr/bin/glance-api
<infinity> jamespage: ^
<jamespage> yeah I see
<jamespage> infinity, doko: is there any policy on what the shebang for a python 3 script should be?
<doko> hmm, somehow. /usr/bin/python3 or the less used /usr/bin/env python3
<infinity> jamespage: /usr/bin/python3 unless you have a strict version dep, then /usr/bin/python3.7.  But you can also express that dep entirely in packaging, so just using python3 is better.
<jamespage> infinity: ack
<doko> dh-python can rewrite that
<cjwatson> It's in the Python policy too: https://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/python-policy/python.html#interpreter_loc
<coreycb> tjaalton: hi, I've uploaded octavia-dashboard to the cosmic new queue. it was originally synced from debian and was in cosmic-proposed but got stuck there as it was outdated and not building. any chance we can get the fixed up version into cosmic?
<jbicha> kenvandine: are you able to create the 19.04 series for pulsemixer to fix the Ubuntu MATE iso? https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/+livefs/ubuntu/disco/ubuntu-mate
<jbicha> Mate has 2 other snaps so maybe those need to be done too: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mate-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-mate.disco/view/head:/desktop#L72
<kenvandine> jbicha: no, i don't have permissions for those
<kenvandine> jbicha: sorry
<jbicha> Wimpress: maybe you can handle that then? ^
<tjaalton> coreycb: i'm not an archive admin, so can't process NEW. and gone now anyway
<coreycb> tjaalton: ok thanks for the msg
<coreycb> vorlon: hi, any chance you can take a look at my question above about octavia-dashboard?
<vorlon> coreycb: you have a newer version of cosmic-proposed NEW than is in disco currently, why is that?
<coreycb> vorlon: if disco is open I can upload it or if not maybe it could be binary copied forward
<TJ-> Could we get nfs-utils in 16.04 fixed for Bug #1697339 ?
<ubottu> bug 1697339 in nfs-utils (Ubuntu) "rpc.gssd performs reverse DNS by default (regardless of -D flag)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1697339
#ubuntu-devel 2018-11-03
<vorlon> coreycb: sorry for the latency - octavia-dashboard looks ok in terms of the packaging but what is the justification for adding it post-release given that nobody minded its absence until now?
<hwpplayer1> Hi people
#ubuntu-devel 2018-11-04
<UBUxUBU>  iwould like to propose a change to the way the minimal install occurs, i don't think it should be part of the full installer at all, but its own installer. i dont think it is a good idea to to have an OS installer, install the full system, ans then remove all the extra apps after the fact and then call it a minimal install. i think a minimal install should be a separate installer all by itself. i think it will result in a cleaner system.
<TJ-> UBuxuBU: are you volunteering to do that work? The reason the desktop installer does it the way it does is it avoids duplication of resources; we don't want an additional installer ISO to maintain
<tsimonq2> UBuxuBU: We're also moving towards stacking squashfses.
<tsimonq2> So instead of installing all of it and then removing the unneeded bits, it'll only copy the core squashfs.
<UBuxuBU> well then u could it for LTS releases only
<tsimonq2> That's coming, probably, before the next LTS.
<tsimonq2> I respectfully disagree that your idea is practical.
<UBuxuBU> if ic ould lean how to do it i would do that for u
<UBuxuBU> now that i see it infornt if me installed i beleive it is the best option
<UBuxuBU> it is very quiet
<UBuxuBU> wow my disk in only 28C temp
<hwpplayer1> hi people
<UBuxuBU> whats does it mean: stacking squashfses?
#ubuntu-devel 2019-10-28
<Unit193> For the sake of py3, https://packages.qa.debian.org/c/calibre/news/20191025T011934Z.html might be great to grab, no?
<cpaelzer> rafaeldtinoco: rbasak: I've had two MPs of which I said they are not important since they wait on Focal, now that it is open I'd appreciate a timely review if one of you could take a look
<cpaelzer> https://code.launchpad.net/~paelzer/ubuntu/+source/qemu/+git/qemu/+merge/374446
<cpaelzer> https://code.launchpad.net/~paelzer/ubuntu/+source/qemu/+git/qemu/+merge/374447
<cpaelzer> well, now that we know Focal is open and no other fixes will be stacked let me combine them into one ...
<cpaelzer> rbasak: rafaeldtinoco: https://code.launchpad.net/~paelzer/ubuntu/+source/qemu/+git/qemu/+merge/374770 would be better
<cpaelzer> and in a few minutes we also have proper up to date Focal test build builds in a PPA to try if you want
<cpaelzer> also I'm still waiting for all 4  haproxy MPs reachable from https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/haproxy/+bug/1841936
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1841936 in haproxy (Ubuntu Focal) "Rebuild openssl 1.1.1 to pickup TLSv1.3 (bionic) and unbreak existing builds against 1.1.1 (dh key size)" [Medium,Triaged]
<cpaelzer> Those are enough MPs to also tag you ahasenack :-)
<cpaelzer> ^^
<cpaelzer> rafaeldtinoco: the second and third chapter have a lot of overlap
<cpaelzer> not sure if you'd want to merge that into one
<cpaelzer> rafaeldtinoco: you also have to add a huge disclaimer at the manual qemu-cmdline that this disables everything that libvirt would do in terms of feature control
<cpaelzer> it is a (very) last resort effort to do it that way
<cpaelzer> also e.g. mds-no can be set normally, I ask you to only use those in the cmdline examples which really don't work any other way
<cpaelzer> page breaks before new chapters would also help readability
<cpaelzer> Oh you meant this to be for bionic, that is why you consider mds missing
<cpaelzer> still ahuge disclaimer please
<cpaelzer> IIRC while mds-no was one of the complex arch_capability ones
<cpaelzer> md-clear was a normal bit and can be used in Bionic
<cpaelzer> TBH I'd not even tell people to use qemu commandline from libvirt xml, it just leads to so many bugs later on all too often
<cpaelzer> but with a big disclaimer it might be ok
<cpaelzer> overll the doc surely will help people, so I hope you get not only mine but also other feedback and then can publish it somewhere
<rafaeldtinoco> thx. yep I need to split what can be done on each version, like the msd-no. and will sure look for feedbacks. Greg's presentation today was all about that, impressive..
<rafaeldtinoco> I'll start doing merges today, and code reviews as the doc is finished and repo is opened.
<rbasak> cpaelzer: I'm still cloning qemu :-/
<cpaelzer> hehe
<cpaelzer> rbasak: rafaeldtinoco: glad to see you both, please coordinate that not both of you clean qemu for too long :-)
<rbasak> I'm getting an eventual 503 Service Unavailable trying to fetch your branch
<rbasak> So I might move on and see if it's working later
<cpaelzer> rbasak: maybe do haproxy and let qemu for rafaeldtinoco ?
<cpaelzer> that is smaller
<cpaelzer> and you are involved from a second POV of the SRU team
<rbasak> haproxy isn't cloning either right now
<cpaelzer> oh, so it is LP in general
<rbasak> I wonder if it's related to the archive opening
<rbasak> The git-ubuntu importer is presumably very busy
<rafaeldtinoco> I'm starting little later today, will catch up and sync with what's left (leave some reviews for me :)
<cjwatson> rbasak: The git-ubuntu importer presumably always uses SSH though?
<cjwatson> Or does it use HTTPS to pull?
<rbasak> I'm not sure. I can look it up if you need?
<cjwatson> Not especially
<cjwatson> I should unpack what I said though: the 503s are because there's a lowish limit on concurrent HTTPS connections at the moment because there are some frequent events that amount to DDoS by HTTPS
<cjwatson> And limiting concurrent connections makes it easier for the service to recover somewhat naturally most of the time without just faceplanting
<rbasak> That makes sense, thanks
<rbasak> cpaelzer: looks like haproxy for Focal needs rebasing onto proposed :-/
<rbasak> Does that change anything?
<cpaelzer> no
<cpaelzer> rbasak: I already abandoned the focal MP
<rbasak> Ah
<cpaelzer> and updated the  bug
<cpaelzer> the sync relaces the Focal MP, but SRU MPs stay as-is
<cpaelzer> +p
<rbasak> Sorry I shouldn't have jumped straight to your branches
<rbasak> cpaelzer: I don't see the fix in 2.0.8-1? src/ssl_sock.c appears unchanged.
<cpaelzer> I was relying on what I found it tagged in the upstream branch - let me check the actual upload that we got synced
<cpaelzer> $ git tag --contains d6de151248603b357565ae52fe92440e66c1177c
<cpaelzer> v2.0.8
<cpaelzer> just to confirm why I have assumed it would be in there
<rbasak> Suddenly I get the opposite answer to my query
<rbasak> git diff pkg/ubuntu/eoan-devel pkg/ubuntu/focal-proposed -- src/ssl_sock.c
<rbasak> This was previously giving me nothing, but now I see it
 * rbasak is puzzled
<rbasak> Ah
<cpaelzer> the fixes are in on my check to focal-proposed that I just did
<rbasak> Apparently working directory matters for that
<rbasak> My mistake, osrry
<cpaelzer> np
<rbasak> cpaelzer: haproxy (three branches) looks good. What's the plan with the bug reference and SRU information?
<rbasak> Right now the bug reference doesn't trigger a Launchpad-Bugs-Fixed
<rbasak> And the SRU information is for the previous no-change rebuild I think?
<cpaelzer> SRU information is for both
<cpaelzer> if you read the bug it has two templates now
<cpaelzer> and the upload will be done with an -v to the last released version
<rbasak> Ah
<cpaelzer> that way it will trigger the updates excactly once
<rbasak> OK
<cpaelzer> but atm autopkgtest has so much to do, I'm not sure when the 2.0.8 sync will release anyway
<cpaelzer> but then -proposed is enough (in terms of prereq) to get the SRUs uploaded
<cpaelzer> so if you approved them I can go on
<cpaelzer> rbasak: I agree that the later ones which already had openssl need updated bug links
<cpaelzer> consider that done
<rbasak> Well you just convinced me that with a -v in the upload you don't need them? :-P
<cpaelzer> which is correct for Bionic
<cpaelzer> but D/E never had the openssl upload
<rbasak> Ah
<cpaelzer> there your feedback was correct
<cpaelzer> I'm just proactively fixing your way to be green
<cpaelzer> and the 2.0.8 would already be released if the opening of the sync wouldn't put that much pressure on autopkgtest
<cpaelzer> things might need a while to settle there
<rbasak> I think it's OK for you to mark Fix Committed for Focal and for me to then accept the SRUs.
<cpaelzer> done
<cpaelzer> now uploading
<cpaelzer> rbasak: all tagged and uplaoded, the MPs are marked approved and the bug on Focal "Fix Committed"
<cpaelzer> thanks for the review
<cpaelzer> thanks for the accept rbasak, that way I can do the tests right away later today
<cpaelzer> giving it an hour or two to build and show up in proposed
<TJ-> Is the expected output of "dpkg --verify" mostly made up of '?' aside from the MD5 check? Docs say it is using RPM format which would normally be '.' for a pass - can I assume that '?' means "this check not done on Debian" ?
<ddstreet> xnox you mind if i merge mdadm, or are you working on it
<rafaeldtinoco> xnox: mind taking a look at the following MR whenever you have some time (https://code.launchpad.net/~rafaeldtinoco/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+git/systemd/+merge/374027), pls ? systemd-networkd related.
<ubuking> Hey!
<cpaelzer> ahasenack: postgresql-common 208 showed up, but needs a while to be syncable
<cpaelzer> as I said in my mail, maybe you could kick the sync at your EOD
<cpaelzer> then it should be available for a sync I'd hope
<marcustomlinson> slashd: hey, have I been granted PPU for LibreOffice yet? I noticed I'm still not allowed to trigger autopkgtests against LibreOffice in a PPA
<marcustomlinson> "You submitted an invalid request: You are not allowed to upload libreoffice or libreoffice to Ubuntu, thus you are not allowed to use this service."
<cpaelzer> marcustomlinson: IIRC that is an action that only core-dev's can do atm
<cpaelzer> I think it lacks an ACL finer than that
<marcustomlinson> :(
<cjwatson> marcustomlinson: I think cpaelzer is mistaken
<cjwatson> bileto uses archive.checkUpload to determine whether the requester can upload
<marcustomlinson> sounds promising cjwatson thanks
<seb128> if you can upload I think you should be able to trigger tests
<cjwatson> Indeed.  I checked and marcustomlinson hasn't yet been granted any kind of PPU
<marcustomlinson> cjwatson: that would make sense yeah. slashd was gonna do that for me, I just suspect he hasn't gotten around to it yet.
<slashd> marcustomlinson, I thought it was sil2100 task, I'll get back to you soon. Sorry for the delay.
<seb128> marcustomlinson, just share retry urls on #ubuntu-desktop meanwhile if needed (or sent in query, I'm happy to click on those for you)
<Laney> It needs to be done by a member of the TB
<marcustomlinson> slashd: ah sorry, you did the team additions, cyphermox was gonna do the PPU
<marcustomlinson> thanks seb128, I don't actually need one at this moment, was just giving it a test
<slashd> marcustomlinson, I'll figure this out with the other member of the dmb and get back to you soon.
<marcustomlinson> thanks slashd, sorry for bugging you (the wrong person)
<slashd> marcustomlinson, not problem at all, it's dmb matter so all good
<Laney> Not really happy with testing access by trying to create unnecessary jobs
<Laney> We are slammed at the minute and libreoffice isn't exactly trivial
<marcustomlinson> Laney: well I don't NEED to test is what I'm saying, as I can for amd64 locally first
<Laney> Great, that's what everyone should be doing :>
<cjwatson> Also you can test for access using edit-acl (lp:ubuntu-archive-tools)
<cjwatson> edit-acl -p marcustomlinson query
<marcustomlinson> cjwatson: useful thanks :)
<sil2100> slashd: I thought only the PPU package addition for Gunnar was my action item?
<sil2100> Did I forget something?
<sil2100> uh!
<slashd> sil2100, it's cyphermox's action
<rbasak> bryce: https://code.launchpad.net/~racb/usd-importer/+git/usd-importer/+ref/importer-add-tests
<rbasak> More refactoring and cleanups to come, but that should give you an idea of what's coming.
<rbasak> You'll want to spend some time understanding the structure
<rbasak> Diff against master please - the individual commits probably won't be helpful
<cyphermox> marcustomlinson: PPU is done.
<sdk> <jbicha "sdk: there are alternate depende"> That's what I tought but what would be the rationale behing installing the whole ubuntu desktop when apt installing xorg on a netinst? I mean wouldn't it be better to move those dependencies in "suggested packages" insteand of "recommended"?
<sdk> <JanC "you can also use --no-install-re"> Thanks but that's exactly what I tried to avoid since I'll need to install each packages I need individually.
<RAOF> <sdk "That's what I tought but what wo"> There's no difference in the dependencies between netinst and other install methods; they're backed by the same archive. The solution suggested - `apt install xorg gnome-shell-` should get you xorg without gnome-shell. Check if that set of packages is what you're after. If not, repeat, excluding another likely-looking package with `$PACKAGE-` on the end, until the set of packages is
<RAOF> to your liking.
<sdk> RAOF: Well, I'll try that solution even if there's a wall of packages to check. I guess I'll have some fun --dry-run'ing a few times until I find all the packages I need to exclude XD.
#ubuntu-devel 2019-10-29
<ricotz> RAOF, hi :), could you take a look at https://launchpadlibrarian.net/447970389/vala_0.40.17-0ubuntu1_source.changes -- https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vala/+bug/1803136
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1803136 in vala (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] Update to vala 0.40.17 in bionic" [Low,Confirmed]
<LocutusOfBorg> kirkland, your bikeshed package depends on bzr-fastimport, but fastimport has to disappear due to bzr->brz transition...
<LocutusOfBorg> can you please do some update of the packaging?
<enaut[m]> hey all, what is the best way to convert a git tree (with debian directory) to a deb package - without any source.tgz?
<tarzeau> enaut[m]: create a source.tgz without debian directory
<tarzeau> enaut[m]: if there's a dsc link dget that
<tarzeau> enaut[m]: which software is that?
<enaut[m]> the software is ltsp-manager kind of my own ;) however I think it is so complicated to build the deb-file locally for testing purposes.
<enaut[m]> isn't there a switch for just building the whole directory with dh_make - I mean everything is there to build it just does not build automagically?
<cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg: brz provides bzr-fastimport though
<LocutusOfBorg> cjwatson, yes true, we should probably make that fastimport a transitional package? meh, don't care.
<cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg: I mean ... it is
<cjwatson>  bzr-fastimport | 0.13.0+bzr361+brz1     | focal-proposed/universe | source, all
<cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg: Maybe you're looking in focal rather than focal-proposed
<LocutusOfBorg> cjwatson, I just syncd it
<LocutusOfBorg> i confused with bzr-webdav, that one probably needs to be kicked out
<doko> marcustomlinson: any update with the libreoffice autopkg test?
<marcustomlinson> doko: will be fixed tomorrow or thursday with the new version
<doko> marcustomlinson: how do you know? https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=943401
<ubottu> Debian bug 943401 in libstdc++6 "libreoffice C++ Unit tests failing since 9.2.1-12 ((Failure instantiating exceptionprotector)" [Serious,Open]
<marcustomlinson> doko: I will disable the test as Debian has done
<marcustomlinson> could I just ask for a day so I can correlate the fix with the new release
<doko> marcustomlinson: seriously disabling without checking for the issue?
<marcustomlinson> doko: libreoffice is unfortunately not the only pain in my ass right now
<doko> ;-P
<doko> marcustomlinson: is this test run during the build as well, and if not, how can it be run?
<marcustomlinson> doko: afaiu it does run during build yes
<marcustomlinson> though, it looks like Debian have disabled it during build too. hmm, might have to as well
<marcustomlinson> how can it be run > make check
<doko> marcustomlinson: please could you enable building with the internal cppunit, and see if the problem persists? a stack trace would be good to have
<cpaelzer__> ahasenack: I have synced postgresql-common 208
<cpaelzer__> it was ready now and has the changes we need
<cpaelzer__> I'll let it run tests over night as they auto-trigger, then we might need to go to p-migraton and check which older tests need custom triggers to properly work
<infinity> cpaelzer__: A psql transition in the middle of unwinding the initial autosync?  You're brave.
<cpaelzer__> infinity: it already started by exactly that thundering-herd autosync
<cpaelzer__> doko: made me aware that several things were failing
<infinity> Oh, as in stuff had been fixed to work with 12, but somehow not backward compatible with 11?
<cpaelzer__> turned out libpq-dev was already pointing to 12 and postgresql-common to 11 still - and things being auto-synced broke on that
<infinity> Oh, or that.  I thought psql-common was supposed to own libpq-dev for that very reason.
<infinity> Maybe I gave the design too much credit.
<cpaelzer__> infinity: I didn't say I wanted to transition now, but the syncs that already happened and the current state in debian made going back as painful as going forward
<infinity> It very clearly comes from psql itself.  Special.  That seems entirely wrong.
<infinity> cpaelzer__: Yup, agreed.  I missed the puzzle piece that libpsql-dev is coming from (IMO) the wrong source package. :P
<cpaelzer__> yeah, agreed - there should be no two packages defining what is currently "the version"
<cpaelzer__> but for now things are as they are
<infinity> Makes the whole "default" selection in psql-common seem sort of pointless.
<kyrofa> Hey juliank, regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/urdfdom-headers/+bug/1817595, there doesn't seem to be anything in -proposed yet. What is the next step there?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1817595 in urdfdom-headers (Ubuntu Bionic) "[SRU] urdfdom-headers and urdfdom should not use locale dependent parsing for floating point numbers" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<juliank> kyrofa: It's in the queue https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/bionic/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text= - bug some sru people (sru vanguard) about apporivng theme
<kyrofa> Ah yes, thank you!
<ahasenack> hi, I need some apt pinning help. I want to have trusty-proposed main in general downgraded (400, for example), but for one package that comes from it: ubuntu-advantage-tools
<ahasenack> it's not working: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/sVB7TCvTXZ/
<ahasenack> i.e., I don't want dist-upgrade to suddenly upgrade to anything in proposed, but for that one package
<sarnold> ahasenack: iirc proposed is handled funny, you have to use something like apt install package=version to use proposed
<ahasenack> hm, wait a sec, it's saying the pin prio is 400, but dist-upgrade is pulling it in
<ahasenack> sarnold: can't do that, this is part of a dist-upgrade from precise
<rbasak> ahasenack: define "not working" please?
<ahasenack> I want the dist-upgrade to precise to consider just u-a-t from trusty-proposed, not the rest
<ahasenack> rbasak: I was expecting to see a "500" pin prio next to the u-a-t package from trusty-proposed, instead I see 400
<rbasak> Your pastebin shows 500?
<ahasenack> no
<ahasenack> 19.6~ubuntu14.04.2 500
<ahasenack>         400 http://br.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ trusty-proposed/main amd64 Packages
<ahasenack> that's 400
<rbasak> Ah
<ahasenack> oh, hm, what is the 500 next to the version?
<ahasenack> is that the actual package-specific pin?
<ahasenack> and the 400 below for the trusty-proposed line is the overall trusty-proposed pin prio?
 * ahasenack uses better numbers
<ahasenack> ok, yeah
<ahasenack> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/FFN7QKDwhh/ ok, I guess it is working
<rbasak> I'm not sure what those two numbers mean
<rbasak> "The APT preferences do not affect the choice of instance, only the choice of version."
<rbasak> So it's the score by the version string that's important.
<rbasak> I don't know what the score by the URL means
<ahasenack> it's for the * package I guess
<ahasenack> but yeah, I hadn't noticed the score next to the version ever before
 * ahasenack tries another lengthy dist-upgade
<gQuigs> can we clear our trusty-proposed except for the actively maintained bits (ua client)?  https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<gQuigs> actually verification was done on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/gnutls26/+bug/1444656  before close of trusty...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1444656 in gnutls26 (Ubuntu Trusty) "GnuTLS TLS 1.2 handshake failure" [High,Fix committed]
<gQuigs> I think the bcmwl  update should just be marked won't fix for Trusty and will proceed with doing that in a few...
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: hi!
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: I'm preparing a mysql 8.0.18 update for eoan, could you please sanity-check my changes before I upload it for building? There are a couple of new files, I want to make sure you agree with where I put them: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/rcWrc4YDGK/
<rbasak> mdeslaur: that looks reasonable to me
<mdeslaur> thanks rbasak!
<rbasak> mdeslaur: though I would like you to use QUILT_REFRESH_ARGS="-p ab --no-timestamps --no-index" please
<rbasak> Saves extra noise in diffs
<rbasak> mdeslaur: I'm assuming it passes dep8?
<mdeslaur> rbasak: ah, thanks for the quilt config, I'll do that
<mdeslaur> rbasak: haven't tested that yet
<Skuggen> mdeslaur: Hi!
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: hi there!
<Skuggen> One thing: We support with_protobuf=system (as opposed to using the bundle-built ones), but we should probably test it out more to be sure, and we can make that change later
<Skuggen> I think the protobuf version we build upstream is the same as the one in eoan
<rbasak> Ah, so maybe we want that in Focal?
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: sounds like a change for focal
<mdeslaur> and only as long as he protobuf version won't change with point releases
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: also, not sure if you care or not, but I had to disable the complete test suite on s390x on bionic with 5.7.28 as it was hanging: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-security-proposed/+archive/ubuntu/ppa/+sourcepub/10686865/+listing-archive-extra
<Skuggen> Yeah, I _think_ we'll change to use system protobuf for ubuntu in upstream packages as well, so should stay stable going forward.
<Skuggen> About the ppc64el patch, you're sure it's not needed any more? I haven't really followed up on it, just see that our bug isn't closed
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: most of the patch was already applied...a few parts weren't, but the package built and the test suite ran fine
<Skuggen> Hm, maybe we have a duplicate bug for this I'm not aware of. I'll look into it and maybe get it closed, thanks :)
<Skuggen> About s390x, do you know if there's any particular thing that hangs?
<mdeslaur> unfortunately, I haven't had time to investigate further...
<Skuggen> I think we only enforce the test results for amd64 and i386 for 5.7 builds
 * mdeslaur orders s390x off of amazon
<Skuggen> Hehe, yeah I don't really have anything except i386, amd64 and arm64 available :)
<mdeslaur> and it runs fine with xenial and disco...
<mdeslaur> I'm still awaiting autopkgtest results to make sure nothing regressed other than the test suite
<Skuggen> Could it be related to the openssl change?
<Skuggen> Though if it works on older releases maybe it's a change in a dependency that causes it
<mdeslaur> I thought that may be the case, but I rebuilt the old one with openssl enabled, and it worked
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: I'll figure out how to access an s390x builder box when I get a minute and if I figure it out, I'll let you know
<Skuggen> Thanks!
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: another question: with 8.0, when --skip-grant-tables is used, mysql 8.0 won't bind to a network port...is there any way to override that?
<mdeslaur> "If the server is started with the --skip-grant-tables option to disable authentication checks, the server enables skip_networking to prevent remote connections. "
<mdeslaur> this is causing php7.3 to FTBFS
<Skuggen> Yeah, I saw. You could try --skip-networking=off, but I also mentioned it to rbasak that it didn't seem like skip-grant-tables was actually needed there
<Skuggen> Since --initialize-insecure was used, the root user should be passwordless
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: I tried --skip-networking=off and it didn't work
<mdeslaur> oh hrm, interesting
<mdeslaur> ultimately, we're starting an instance of mysql for nothing...none of the mysql tests even run since we moved to php7.0...
<RAOF> ricotz: Hm. I think I may have a rather different opinion as to what goes into a bugfix-only release than the vala developers ð
<ricotz> RAOF, hmm?
<RAOF> Oh, there just seen to be rather a lot of changes which don't fix a bug.
<RAOF> (and are not obviously in the service of fixing a bug)
<ricotz> RAOF, could you give an example?
<ricotz> prevent asserts and correcting bindings might be easy, but fixing memory leaks are not that obvious to see in the plain diff, so are fixing c-warnings in the generated code
<ricotz> RAOF, e.g. "Support static methods in error-domains" doesn't sound like bug-fix, but it actually is
<RAOF> Aha!
<ricotz> RAOF, irony?
<RAOF> Oh, no. Just that it makes more sense.
<ricotz> ok, the method implementations weren't emitted at all before
<RAOF> I still want to know what the testing plan is (in the bug, please)
<ricotz> of course the diff has grown a lot, given the age of the bug report
<RAOF> Unless I've missed it!
<ricotz> it is/was in the description which included a mass-rebuild at that time
<RAOF> And quite a lot of the diff is generated code.
<ricotz> use the link in the last comment
<ricotz> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/vala/compare/0.40.8...0.40.17
<RAOF> (the mass rebuild link appears to be broken?)
<ricotz> I already commented including this information
<RAOF> Ah, thanks. I didn't see that.
<ricotz> RAOF, https://launchpad.net/~ricotz/+archive/ubuntu/vala-sru/+packages
<RAOF> Ta
<RAOF> Did you do any smoke testing on the resulting packages?
<ricotz> RAOF, only a few in the past, many packages have a testsuite
<ricotz> and a lot of the package are only generating a vapi from their gir
<ricotz> RAOF, g2g, eod here
<RAOF> Thanks for your clarifications!
#ubuntu-devel 2019-10-30
<pieq> !
<sarnold> ~
<ricotz> RAOF, thanks!
<kanashiro> I am checking lm-sensors package before do the merge of the latest version we have in Debian and I am not sure if I agree with the delta we carry in this package. It basically replaces a "Breaks" with a "Conflicts" in debian/control with the justification that "Breaks" shouldn't be used without version
<kanashiro> however, this is not mandatory and "Breaks" is preferable most of the times
<kanashiro> could someone take a look and give me a second opinion on this?
<cjwatson> What is the semantic purpose of the Breaks or Conflicts relationship here?
<rbasak> I found https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lm-sensors/commit/?id=a7a21eead36e463e665bea74cd98ab400014c229
<rbasak> libsensors4 last existed in Bionic
<cjwatson> https://bugs.debian.org/915873
<ubottu> Debian bug 915873 in libsensors-config "libsensors-config: removal of libsensors-config makes files disappear from libsensors4" [Serious,Fixed]
<kanashiro> cjwatson, you were faster than me :)
<cjwatson> It does seem to me that this should probably be spelled Breaks, but Conflicts+Replaces is special and so are configuration files.  I'd suggest specifically asking infinity (who made this change) for the background
<kanashiro> cjwatson, thanks for taking a look, let's see infinity's feedback
 * rafaeldtinoco created a ubuntu-server-ha project and ~ubuntu-server-ha team -> subscribed all HA related packages. feel free to subscribe ubuntu-server-ha to any HA related bugs
<rafaeldtinoco> and sorry for the noise on ubuntu-server as many of those bugs were also ubuntu-server subscribed
<rbasak> dannf: o/
<dannf> rbasak: hey
<rbasak> dannf: in your Bionic upload of gdb, shouldn't the changelog message say "Fix breakpoints in 32-bit programs" or something?
<rbasak> That's what's really being fixed, right?
<dannf> rbasak: i suspect it goes beyond breakpoints, but i'd be fine w/ mentioning that explicitly
<rbasak> dannf: if it's quick for you to fix up please.
<rbasak> Just that users reporting affected are holding on the package and it seems appropriate to tell them their bug is being fixed :)
<rbasak> (and the bug description referenced doesn't match the current description)
<dannf> rbasak: ack
<dannf> rbasak: done - thx for the feedback!
<rbasak> Perfect - thank you!
<RikMills> mwhudson: hi. will there be eoan docker images any time in next week?
<doko> jbicha: https://lists.debian.org/debian-gtk-gnome/2019/10/msg00001.html  is this agreed upon in Debian?
<Skuggen> mdeslaur: One comment about the php issue with mysql: One reason to have used skip-grant-tables would have been if php has|had any tests that actually tried to connect remotely, since by default mysql will only create a root@localhose user.
<Skuggen> (5.7+)
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: yeah, I'm not sure since the php mysql tests don't seem to actually run
<mdeslaur> I'll have to investigate...I did remove skip-grant-tables, and that made it build
<mdeslaur> thanks for the hint
<kanashiro> infinity, did you see our discussion earlier here about lm-sensors? If it's possible I'd like to know why do we need Conflicts instead of Breaks here https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lm-sensors/commit/?id=a7a21eead36e463e665bea74cd98ab400014c229
<infinity> kanashiro: Conflicts/Replaces means "remove A to install B", Breaks/Replaces means "files in B overwrite files in A".  The latter should be versioned, the former not.  What you wanted was the former.
<infinity> kanashiro: If what was actually intended was to overwrite files, then it should have been versioned with the version when the file moved.  I didn't look at history deeply to decide that when I made the fix, I was just fixing the case where our frontends (like update-manager) refused to perform the upgrade because an unversioned Breaks pretty much *is* a Conflict, but it won't do the swap without Conflicts/Replaces being in play.
<kanashiro> infinity, okay, so this delta fixes an upgrade issue you faced, that's enough for me
<kanashiro> thanks for the reply
<infinity> kanashiro: Okay, looking at the original Debian report that caused this, yes, it should have been a Conflict.  It would have been a (versioned) Breaks if a newer version of libsensors4 existed that didn't ship the file, but that's not a thing.
<infinity> kanashiro: Anyhow, we only need this delta through the release of 20.04 (to keep things smooth from 18.04), then it can go bye-bye.  So adding a comment like that in debian/control above the Conflicts line might be a helpful hint to future mergers.
<kanashiro> infinity, good point, will add this comment for future merges
<mwhudson> RikMills: do you mean focal? there have been eoan images for a while
<RikMills> mwhudson: yeah, I do. still easy to make that mistake!
<mwhudson> hm no images at https://partner-images.canonical.com/core/ yet
<jbicha> doko: please be more specific with your question
<jbicha> pygtk may be dropped from Debian Testing by the end of this year
<jbicha> mitya57: would you like to rebuild gnome-panel and gnome-applets for https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/libgweather.html ?
<mwhudson> RikMills: https://github.com/docker-library/official-images/pull/6888
#ubuntu-devel 2019-10-31
<mitya57> jbicha: done
<LocutusOfBorg> juliank, hello, gpgme1.0 merge please? it is shown on merge page with my name on it because of a fix I did...
<mwhudson> (initramfs) losetup -f
<mwhudson> loop: can't get info on device /dev/loop1: No such device or address
<mwhudson> how does that happen?
<mwhudson> eh should go to bed instead :)
<GunnarHj> Hi wgrant, can you please take a look at https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/685484 . I think it's ready to add provided that it can be done even if the locale is not yet present.
<rafaeldtinoco> morning o/
<marcustomlinson> doko: hey, I see you managed to get libreoffice autopkgtests passing?
<xnox> doko:  does gcc-9 do some weird trampoline / retpoline / zeroing of things?
<xnox> doko:  or maybe kernel.
<xnox> doko:  i see that klibc build, clears argc after an ioctl is performed
<ubuking> hi
<ubuking> are here some developers ??
<xnox> ubuking:  maybe =) but they get scared and run away
<doko> marcustomlinson: looks so
<marcustomlinson> doko: did g++ change perhaps?
<marcustomlinson> or was that fluke? :P
<marcustomlinson> doko: I see you published a gcc-9 update yesterday
<doko> marcustomlinson: https://gcc.gnu.org/PR92267, however a build still seems to fail for me
<doko> xnox: sorry, no
<xnox> doko:  hm, ok.
<xnox> apw:  doko: so when klibc based userspace utility (losetup) calls an ioctl (which is implemented using kernel headers / .S assembly?) the global main functions, argc is cleared. When building with gcc-9 & linux-5.3 headers. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1850184 Please tell me there is some "please-no-retpoline-clearing-vars" option =)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1850184 in linux (Ubuntu Focal) "losetup -f broken in 2.0.6-1ubuntu2" [Undecided,New]
<roaksoax> n]/win 7
<doko> xnox: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features two new flags were turned on, but also in 8
<xnox> doko:  yeah, i've already tried disabling them, and that doesn't seem to fix anything.
<xnox> doko:  so i still currently think that v5.3 headers get excited by gcc-9 somehow
<mwhudson> RikMills: there should be focal docker images now
<mwhudson> hm but there aren't
<mwhudson> well there should be soon :)
<mwhudson> RikMills: ok it is there now :)
#ubuntu-devel 2019-11-01
<Unit193> While I might dispute the validity of the NMU, someone that is gtk2-rm crazy could sync gparted from experimental.
<Gargoyle> doko: There's a bug in MySQL 8 which seems to have been the same or re-surfaced as I have found an exact same bug un launchpad for 5.5 from 3 years ago. I've had a poke round launchpad but cannot find where to file an updated report or submit a patch. I would like to do it if someone can point me in the right direction.
<Gargoyle> Bug is actually with the logrotate script, so probably just a packaging issue and not an issue with MySQL 8.0 itself. (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-5.5/+bug/1558471)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1558471 in mysql-5.5 (Ubuntu) "logrotate config mysql-server fails with error "error: skipping "/var/log/mysql.log"" [Undecided,New]
<Gargoyle> I've greated a fresh patch from the code here:- https://code.launchpad.net/~usd-import-team/ubuntu/+source/mysql-8.0/+git/mysql-8.0 and I've tried to look upstream, but debian is even more confusing as they have dropped mysql from stable. :/ Now I'm lost!
<Gargoyle> s/greated/created
<rbasak> Gargoyle: o/
<rbasak> Gargoyle: you can send a merge proposal against https://salsa.debian.org/mariadb-team/mysql/tree/mysql-8.0/ubuntu/develif you like
<rbasak> Or file a bug against https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-8.0/+filebug
<jbicha> Unit193: oh I didn't realize that was an NMU. Have you tried the new gparted yet?
<Gargoyle> Thanks rbasak. Done (https://salsa.debian.org/mariadb-team/mysql/merge_requests/28) :-)
<rbasak> Gargoyle: thanks! Just looking at this now.
<rbasak> Gargoyle: I can reproduce on 19.10 by running "logrotate -f /etc/logrotate.d/mysql-server" but not "logrotate -f /etc/logrotate.conf" which I find puzzling.
<rbasak> It makes sense to take your merge as it's obviously correct, but in terms of importance for backporting to 19.10, how does it affect users in practice?
<Skuggen> Maybe the base config already does something like this?
<rbasak> What I'm wondering is that since in the default configuration /var/log/mysql.log isn't created (I think?), then in the default configuration logrotate would never warn like this?
<rbasak> If so, then we should take the fix for future releases but perhaps there's no need to backport the fix?
<Skuggen> Â«su root syslogÂ» is in /etc/logrotate.conf
<rbasak> Aha
<rbasak> So this isn't a bug after all?
<Skuggen> And yeah, the package default is /var/log/mysql/error.log
<Skuggen> I don't really know much about how logrotate works :)
<Skuggen> Hm, wait, I was looking on a 18.04 box
<Skuggen> In 19.10 it seems to be Â«su root admÂ»
<RikMills> cyphermox: can unity-autopilot be got rid of? it depends src:autopilot, which depends on parts of src:python-qt4 which are dropped in -proposed package
<Gargoyle> rbasak: It stops the logrotate service from starting.
<Gargoyle> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/SCf58hcgYM/
<Gargoyle> ^ Relevant lines from "journalctl -b 0"
<rbasak> Gargoyle: could you give me full steps to reproduce please, on 19.10 presumably?
<Gargoyle> Yup. 1 sec
<Gargoyle> rbasak: Hmm. Nope. Apparently I cannot! With my changes removed I can still run "sudo /usr/sbin/logrotate -d /etc/logrotate.conf" without errors.
<Gargoyle> rbasak: This would make sense because "syslog" is actually a member of "adm". :-/
<rbasak> Gargoyle: OK, so no bug?
<rbasak> "U2F support in OpenSSH HEAD" https://marc.info/?l=openssh-unix-dev&m=157259802529972&w=2
<rbasak> This would be nice for Focal, but I suspect there won't be an upstream release in time. I assume cherry-picking is going to be frowned upon?
<Gargoyle> There's a bug somewhere, rbasak. It seems like it's intermittent though:- https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/PX5Zpy4nCp/
<Gargoyle> I'm going to do a bit more poking. Looks like it might be an issue with the post rotate and "sudo systemctl status logrotate.service" was showing me a red herring.
<rbasak> OK
<cjwatson> rbasak: I wouldn't be comfortable with that because (a) it's a large and complicated set of commits to CP, (b) it'd be easy to make a security-critical mistake, and (c) it wouldn't be unheard of for upstream to catch security-critical errors of their own in this sort of thing before release
<cjwatson> I agree there's no particular assurance that there'll be an upstream release in time; the release schedule isn't regular, but somewhere around every 4-6 months is typical (though some have been a lot quicker).
<rbasak> cjwatson: I thought as much, thanks
<cjwatson> Interesting that they went for a new key type, which means all servers have to update too.  I guess that's another thing to add to my Twisted patch queue
<cjwatson> (i.e. it'll be a while before we can support it in LP)
<cjwatson> I've had basically the full patch set necessary to support Ed25519 in LP ready for a while, but the Twisted patch review cycle grinds pretty slowly :(
<Gargoyle> rbasak: It's a race condition.
<Gargoyle> rbasak: Not very easy to visualise, but here's a full boot log:- https://termbin.com/zn3c
<Gargoyle> rbasak: If you search for "Starting Rotate log files", then then scroll down, "Starting MySQL Community Server" although it's still in the same second is a page and a half later. My guess would be that when mysql's logs do actually need rotating, the post rotate script tries to run "sudo /usr/bin/mysqladmin --defaults-file=/etc/mysql/debian.cnf flush-logs" but mysql is not yet up and running.
<rbasak> Ah, I see
<rbasak> So we need to add a check before the mysqladmin call to no-op if mysqld isn't running perhaps?
<rbasak> Skuggen: ^?
<rbasak> Seems like something that flush-logs should have an option for :)
<rafaeldtinoco> tjaalton: ping. would u mind approving sg3-utils SRU for disco ? it has already being checked/verified/tested in bug 1833618.
<ubottu> bug 1833618 in sg3-utils (Ubuntu Disco) "MAAS can't deploy Ubuntu if ID_SERIAL of any block device is broken (USB pendrive in this case)." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1833618
<Gargoyle> I would still like to try and create reliable steps to reproduce, but logrotate somehow knows my log files don't need rotating - even if I decompress the last rotated one
<Skuggen> rbasak: Hm, the script runs a mysqladmin ping command just before to verify the server is up
<Skuggen> https://salsa.debian.org/mariadb-team/mysql/blob/mysql-8.0/ubuntu/devel/debian/mysql-server-8.0.mysql-server.logrotate#L16
<Skuggen> Actually, what exactly does that if check? That the mysqladmin command doesn't output anything to stderr?
<Gargoyle> Skuggen: It outputs "mysql is alive". If mysql is alive - and nothing on error.
<Skuggen> Ah, of course, that if is for the failure case. Then the flush-logs command should only be run if the server is up and ready
<Gargoyle> So if mysql is not alive, we enter that block and test the outcome of "killall -q -s0 -umysql mysqld;"
<Skuggen> Yeah
<Gargoyle> Which has an exit status of 1 when mysql is not running.
<Gargoyle> What is signal 0 ?
<tjaalton> rafaeldtinoco: no release on a friday, sorry
<rafaeldtinoco> ah ok. was just following what is written in the sru wiki
<rafaeldtinoco> maybe we should update it the
<Skuggen> So if mysql isn't running it should return success
<Skuggen> Signal 0 is sort of a dry-run thing, if I understand it correctly
<cyphermox> RikMills: I suppose unity-autopilot could be dropped (at a glance, it looks like only unity wants it); but this is really a question for the desktop team
<Skuggen> i.e. it won't actually kill mysql, but will check if it's there
<cyphermox> RikMills: as long as the tests are still runnable somehow as they were, it would probably be fine to stop shipping them as a package
<Skuggen> So if mysqld is in the startup phase, process running but not ready yet, it makes sense that the logrotate script will fail, I think
<Gargoyle> Skuggen: Thats what I was just typing! :D
<Skuggen> So some test to detect that state is what we need :)
<Skuggen> Which is basically what rbasak said :D
<Gargoyle> Turned that postrotate script into a stand alone bash script and ran it with a while true and started mysql. Conformed that it hits the "exit 1" during mysql startup.
<Gargoyle> Crude but effective! XD (https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/dCj5ZsvxXH/)
<Gargoyle> I ran "service mysql start" in another term when that was running ^^
<TomyWork> hi. are you aware of a problem connecting to DFS shares on bionic that was introduced between 2:4.7.6+dfsg~ubuntu-0ubuntu2.11 and 2:4.7.6+dfsg~ubuntu-0ubuntu2.13? That version has been out for at least a week now (I installed it on oct 24) and I can't see anything on the bug tracker about it. It worked for me on oct 22 and I noticed it only today (hadn't tried mounting that share between oct 22 and today) and going directly to the (only) share
<TomyWork> behind it works. The person responsible for all the file servers says nothing has changed server-side since oct 22, so I'm quite confident that this was introduced with the update.
<TomyWork> So, if any samba maintainers here are unaware of the issue, I'll write up a bug report about it.
<rbasak> TomyWork: that's not related tohttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-server/2019-October/007967.html is it?
<TomyWork> temporally correlated for sure :)
<TomyWork> i don't recognize any error messages
<rbasak> Please do file a bug, and if you're reporting a regression in stable release, tag it regression-update
<TomyWork> btw is there any way I can downgrade to .11 so i can confirm this issue?
<TomyWork> ...as a regression?
<rbasak> Yes
<rbasak> Launchpad will have the old binaries
<rbasak> Via https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/samba/+publishinghistory
<rbasak> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/samba/2:4.7.6+dfsg~ubuntu-0ubuntu2.11 I think?
<TomyWork> found it, thanks
<rbasak> Then click on amd64 (I assume)
<rbasak> You will need to work out which packages from that source you have installed (and thus need to downgrade)
<TomyWork> yeah i'll just go through the list on packages.ubuntu.com for the source package
<TomyWork> dpkg -l ctdb libnss-winbind libpam-winbind libparse-pidl-perl libsmbclient libsmbclient-dev libwbclient-dev libwbclient0 python-samba registry-tools samba samba-common samba-common-bin samba-dbg samba-dev samba-dsdb-modules samba-libs samba-testsuite samba-vfs-modules smbclient winbind 2>/dev/null | grep ^ii
<TomyWork> that works :)
<TomyWork> ok, rebooting to be sure it's live
<Gargoyle> Skuggen: rbasak: I think I can re-write that postrotate script to check for all 3 possible outcomes (mysql not running, bad debian-sys-maint user, running and connecting ok) with a single check and eliminate the need for the second "if killall.... etc" check which is causing the race condition.
<rbasak> Gargoyle: that sounds good! I'm working on something else right now so haven't confirmed any of the detail, but I really do appreicate any fixes you want to give us :)
<Gargoyle> Should I open a new bug?
<rbasak> Good question
<rbasak> I don't mind if you do
<rbasak> If you just want to send a Salsa merge request that's fine too, though if discussion gets complicated then that would probably best be done in a bug
<rbasak> And then there's the question of whether the fix needs to be backported to stable Ubuntu releases
<Gargoyle> OK. I'll get the patch/MR ready and see how well I can explain it! :-)
<rbasak> If the conclusion is that it does, then we'll need a bug to exist to track the status of that
<rbasak> Thanks!
<Skuggen> Gargoyle: If you'd make a pr for that it would be great!
<tjaalton> rafaeldtinoco: oh, you mean approve to -proposed and not -updates? yeah, that can be done
<rafaeldtinoco> tjaalton: #) yep. thx !
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: so it turns out my s390x problem is when mysql is built with openssl after all...I properly enabled openssl in 5.7.27 and I'm hitting the same issue
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: I'm kind of stuck now
<xnox> mdeslaur:  is it because openssl tries to use CPU hw acceleration and it's not available on your LPAR / VM?
<xnox> mdeslaur:  cause that's "new" in 1.1.1 partially
<mdeslaur> xnox: how would I find out?
<xnox> invoke jfh
<xnox> there are command line things to check if all the right CPU functionality is enabled and available, but i don't remember them.
<mdeslaur> jfh?
<TomyWork> rbasak, regression confirmed. Mounting works with .11
<TomyWork> actually let me upgrade again first, to see whether it was just a reboot that was needed :D
<TomyWork> (unlikely since everything else worked)
<TomyWork> rbasak, ok forget about the whole story, I'm back on .13 and the issue isn't there anymore. I dont know what it was.
<TomyWork> it might be an issue, but it's definitely not a regression
<rbasak> TomyWork: OK. Thank you for investigating anyway - negative results are also good results, and now you know what to do if you do ever spot a regression :)
<TomyWork> yeah, and how to downgrade if one is already reported but not fixed yet :)
<Skuggen> mdeslaur: It's during the build, right? I could try to diagnose it in a ppa
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: take the current bionic package, switch to -DWITH_SSL=system, add libssl-dev to build-depends, and it will hang during build as soon as the server is started for the tests
<mdeslaur> Skuggen: last thing in the log is "Installing system database..."
<Gargoyle> In the current script, it has: "test -x /usr/bin/mysqladmin || exit 0" followed by a comment "# If this fails, check debian.conf" what does that mean? It it trying to say the installation is broken because there is a rote script for a package that is not installed?
<rbasak> I'm not sure about the comment
<rbasak> If you're asking about the -x test, that's pretty common in Debian
<rbasak> It's because a package removal doesn't remove its configuration files
<rbasak> So that later reinstallation will maintain the previous configuration
<Gargoyle> Ahh. ok.
<rbasak> So configuration that is actually code must check for that condition and handle it gracefully
<popey> vorlon: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1789118
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1789118 in linux (Ubuntu Bionic) "Fails to boot under Xen PV: BUG: unable to handle kernel paging request at edc21fd9" [High,Fix released]
<popey> This bug appears fixed in distro, but (as per comment #20) installer images are broken, so unable to install Ubuntu in xen.
<vorlon> popey: http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/bionic/main/installer-i386/current/images/ doesn't have the fix because it's the release pocket.  They want http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/bionic-updates/main/installer-i386/current/images/
<vorlon> well, I mean, they shouldn't want anything i386
<vorlon> but generally
<gpiccoli> Hi rbasak, I'd like to discuss LP #1847924 when you have some minutes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1847924 in mdadm (Ubuntu Focal) "Introduce broken state parsing to mdadm" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1847924
<popey> Ah. Thank you
<Gargoyle> Skuggen: rbasak: This is what I have been able to do with the best of my knowledge as it stands at the moment. Bug = https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-8.0/+bug/1850980, MR = https://salsa.debian.org/mariadb-team/mysql/merge_requests/29
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1850980 in mysql-8.0 (Ubuntu) "mysql-server causes logrotate.service to fail at boot" [Undecided,New]
<Gargoyle> I decided to create the bug anyway because there's still an un-addressed edge case.
#ubuntu-devel 2019-11-02
<LocutusOfBorg> mwhudson, I'm adding a new golang-1.13 race foo detector package :/
<ronj> Hi. I'm following up on issue https://github.com/clementine-player/Clementine/issues/6430 , where I complain I'm having trouble building Clementine (a Qt-based audio player) under 19.10 because libqjson-dev is absent from the eoan repos (and libqjson0 too, both were packaged until disco). Can anyone help with: 1. reasons this package disappeared, 2. if it will be packaged again in the future, 3. workarounds suggestions?
<mitya57> ronj: qjson was removed because Qt now has JSON parser and writer built-in. See Debian #935705 for the removal request (the removal in Debian was then picked up by Ubuntu).
<ubottu> Debian bug 935705 in ftp.debian.org "RM: qjson -- ROM; Dead upstream, uses Qt 4, superseded by Qt 5 itself" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/935705
<mitya57> Workarounds/suggestions: use https://doc.qt.io/qt-5/json.html
<ronj> mitya57: great, exactly what I was looking for; replying with this in the issue :) . Out of curiosity, for me to know in the future: is this something you already knew or did you search for it? Where/how? Thanks!
<mitya57> ronj: in this case I already knew, but you can look at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qjson/+publishinghistory, expand the first entry, and you will see the reason.
<ronj> mitya57: great, didn't know this info was in Launchpad. Thanks!
#ubuntu-devel 2019-11-03
<mwhudson> LocutusOfBorg: oh thanks
<jbicha> Unit193: gparted.appdata.xml should be in the main gparted package not gparted-common. I don't really see a benefit to moving help and translations to an arch:all pkg ð¤·
<Unit193> OK?  What about it?
<jbicha> sorry, I guess I should file a bug
<Unit193> I didn't have anything to do with appdata or the split. :)
<Unit193> (If you were really curious, my personal version only contained these changes: http://paste.openstack.org/show/LgtUyWg1MvDkvjR5JXhv)
<mwhudson> can someone educate me on how to run autopkgtests on packages from a ppa?
<Eickmeyer> Looking for some SRU love on bug 1849168 still.
<ubottu> bug 1849168 in carla (Ubuntu Eoan) "[SRU] Missing build dep libsndfile1-dev discovered" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1849168
