#ubuntu-learning 2009-09-21
<doctormo> pleia2, BiosElement, Vantrax: ok so when people are first signing up for development using this projects tool, I have it requiring a 3 step process.
<pleia2> ok
<doctormo> a) Authorise with launchpad (gives website with registration details if required b) add user to bazaar config and c) compare upload ssh key.
<Vantrax> projects tool?
<Vantrax> ive missed a step somewhere
<doctormo> I can figure out the username from the launchpad auth and add that automatically to the bzr config using the code behind bzr launchpad-login
<doctormo> The ssh key upload needs to be done via code too, since I need to look at existing ssh keys and compare them to installed svailable private keys
<doctormo> Of course the launchpad auth is done via firefox, OAuth forwards you to login via launchpad and then accept access to the program
<doctormo> Vantrax: http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/09/18/launchpad-naultius-sneak-preview/
<BiosElement> Sounds great doctormo ^_^
<Vantrax> im impressed
<Vantrax> you have some hidden coding talent i see
<doctormo> Vantrax: hidden? my profession before Canonical was programming perl for years and years :-D
<cprofitt> hey doctormo
<doctormo> Oh hey cprofitt, how goes work schedual?
<cprofitt> work is fine...
<cprofitt> I should be able to make the meeting Monday night
<cprofitt> and the 'stress' of the start of school should ease this week
<cprofitt> though... to be honest...
<Vantrax> cprofitt: you around
<cprofitt> yes
<cprofitt> Vantrax, what is up?
<swoody> ah, good evening Vantrax and cprofitt :)
<Vantrax> you know kerberos configurations at all?
<cprofitt> a little... at least for AD
<cprofitt> not for Linux
<Vantrax> thats what im playing with
<Vantrax> the configs are the same for both
<Vantrax> MS implements MIT Kerberos
<cprofitt> yep
<Vantrax> which is what linux uses
<Vantrax> anyway, how much you know about capaths and multiple realms
<cprofitt> nothing to be honest... I have one single tree/domain currently
<Vantrax> aww
<Vantrax> I have a student and a staff one
<cprofitt> are you using AD?
<Vantrax> the student one as a one way hiearchical trust relationship with the staff one
<Vantrax> yeah, were rolling over to it atm
<cprofitt> so the student one trusts the staff?
<Vantrax> yes
<cprofitt> but the staff one does not trust the student
<Vantrax> no
<Vantrax> so staff can log in on student machines, but students can not log in on staff machines
<cprofitt> you could have done that w/o sep. domains
<Vantrax> its kinda hard with 10k users...
<Vantrax> and alot of services hanging off them
<Vantrax> anyway here is the krb5.conf file, its the same on windows and linux http://paste.ubuntu.com/27500
<cprofitt> redtubez?
<Vantrax> lol
<cprofitt> http://paste.ubuntu.com/27500/
<Vantrax> ops, that was missing a 0
<cprofitt> that is just another link...
<Vantrax> http://paste.ubuntu.com/275000/
<cprofitt> k
<Vantrax> im pretty sure im doing the capaths wrong
<Vantrax> no one seems to know anything about them tho >.<
<cprofitt> hmm...
<cprofitt> any idea where the files are kept in AD?
<cprofitt> http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/kerberos/2007-March/011376.html
<cprofitt> do you have a forest + two domains?
<cprofitt> or is the student a sub-domain?
<Vantrax> two domains
<cprofitt> k.
<Vantrax> er two subdomains
<Vantrax> i think
<cprofitt> right...
<cprofitt> You tree is ad.griffith
<cprofitt> and you have two sub-domains -- staff-test and student-test
<Vantrax> yer
<cprofitt> yeah the capaths do not make sense given that then...
<Vantrax> ^.^
<Vantrax> i know that
<cprofitt> let me break out an old book... give me a minute
<Vantrax> i stand corrected, it is 2 forests each with a single domain
<doctormo> You guys, I'm having a hard enough time setting up ldap for a 5 machine setup to provide universal login.
<Vantrax> the domains are then the root of each respective forest
<cprofitt> ouch...
<cprofitt> that may be the issue...
<Vantrax> lol
<Vantrax> i can give you some docco
<Vantrax> i have done that for labs before, thats what we are migrating away from
<cprofitt> I think it may be better to make a forest with two sub-domains
<cprofitt> but let me get to that section...
<Vantrax> yeah, but i dont control that bit:P
<Vantrax> doctormo: your doing it using pam_ldap right?
<cprofitt> Vantrax, you don't?
<Vantrax> no, a project team does. I just have to make it work
<cprofitt> are they still in testing... and you can 'give advice' or have they committed to the design already
<doctormo> Vantrax: Trying, but it's been something I've been doing on and off.
<Vantrax> they are pretty committed to the design:P
<cprofitt> AD 2003 or AD 2008?
<Vantrax> 2008
<Vantrax> 2003 is pointless because win7 will not connect to it
<doctormo> anyway, I better go before this Microsoft fan topic makes me see red.
<doctormo> And sleep
<Vantrax> <- is no MS fan
<Vantrax> I am learning KERBEROS... a FOSS project
<Vantrax> it just happens to be used by MS as well
<doctormo> Vantrax: I know, I've installed krbs5
<Vantrax> i will say i am becoming a fan of win7 tho >.<
<Vantrax> damn those free copies
 * doctormo isn't a fan of the company and doesn't care how good the tech is. sleep
<cprofitt> Vantrax, are you just needing to make the Linux side work?
<Vantrax> year
<Vantrax> yer
<cprofitt> k
<Vantrax> so i can make each side log in effectively but i cant have a staff log in with the default set to student
<cprofitt> Vantrax, have they got it working on the Windows side?
<Vantrax> no:P
<Vantrax> they are waiting on me, it will be the same
<cprofitt> Then that makes it hard to ensure they have the trust setup properly
<cprofitt> If I were doing it... I would ensure that first...
<cprofitt> I think you may need an entry for both in the realms section... but trying to hunt that down now...
<Vantrax> i do
<cprofitt> you do have that....
<Vantrax> and you do
<cprofitt> this may help -- http://web.mit.edu/Kerberos/krb5-1.5/krb5-1.5.4/doc/krb5-admin/capaths.html
<Vantrax> yeah, thats where i go this far off
<cprofitt> is not this what you need then....
<cprofitt> http://paste.ubuntu.com/275008/
<cprofitt> unless I am reading the example wrong
<cprofitt> I think that allows a machine joined to the student domain to authenticate to both domains...
<cprofitt> if I read their example correctly
<Vantrax> give me a few min to test
<Vantrax> nope, says client not found in the database, isnt hitting the second domain
<cprofitt> hmm...
<cprofitt> what error were you getting with the capath section you had?
<Vantrax> both sides do work, i can change the default_realm value to STAFF-TEST and get a valid login
<Vantrax> same one
<Vantrax> Client not found in Kerberos database while getting initial credentials
<cprofitt> is your machine 'joined' to the domain
<cprofitt> I think your capath section might actually be right....
<cprofitt> but there may be an issue with the 'membership'
<cprofitt> once I take all their extra stuff out of that example your capath is correct
<cprofitt> I had not noticed the es.net at the bottom ...
<cprofitt> yeah... your capath is accurate to that example...
<cprofitt> my mistake on the one I gave you.
<cprofitt> Can you get the machine to login to either domain at this point?
<cprofitt> Vantrax, I found this -- http://paste.ubuntu.com/275013/
<Vantrax> clear as mud >.<
<Vantrax> this is starting to give me a headache
<cprofitt> lol
<cprofitt> Vantrax, shot in the dark -- http://paste.ubuntu.com/275017/
<Vantrax> im thinking that student-test = staff-test has to be in there somewhere
<Vantrax> not that one:
<cprofitt> http://www.cmf.nrl.navy.mil/ccs/people/kenh/kerberos-faq.html#confxrealm
<cprofitt> yeah... that is what I think...
<cprofitt> I would think student-test has to equal both
<cprofitt> since student-test can authenticate to either
<cprofitt> did you try the last paste I posted?
<Vantrax> yeah
<Vantrax> lunch time for me, you going to be round a while?
<cprofitt> this might help too -- http://groups.google.com/group/comp.protocols.kerberos/browse_thread/thread/3d546e7bd92d74c3
<cprofitt> no... I need to go to sleep
<cprofitt> 11:11pm here
<Vantrax> ok, mind helping me tomorrow?
<Vantrax> he he he, seen that already too
<cprofitt> I can try...
<cprofitt> I wish I had such a setup to test... but I went with one forest just to avoid things like these
<Vantrax> yeah, fun isnt it...
 * Vantrax goes to eat before he tears out his hair...
<Vantrax> see you tomorrow then, have a good night
<cprofitt> thanks... good luck
<pleia2> darn, the mailing list archives going nutty last week has really caused a problem
<pleia2> BiosElement's email wasn't archived :(
<doctormo> We all ready for tonight's big teach off?
<pleia2> we need a dev environment for the demos
<doctormo> BiosElement: your attribution is funny in the example asciidoc """Martin Owens <william@bioselement.com>"""
<BiosElement> doctormo, Yeah, I know. I didn't have your E-Mail when I typed it up and was in a bit of a hurry. It's not the official version
<doctormo> BiosElement: Yes, my fake email address is none@none.cone :-D
<BiosElement> hehe, I'm a fan of root@localhost myself :P
<doctormo> BiosElement: Not a valid email on most sites
<BiosElement> doctormo, Sadly :P
<doctormo> I'm still trying to work out a few things for this key management...
<BiosElement> Sounds fun >.>
<doctormo> BiosElement: Seems they misplaced the idea that some things might need to be managed via the API, so I'm having to think of work arounds.
<BiosElement> doctormo, Pretty typical to be honest >.> API's always seem to be mostly ignored
<doctormo> BiosElement: I'm of the "you do everything, don't bother asking me why someone would want to use it, we just do everything"
<BiosElement> doctormo, Sounds right. ...And the new york times just crashed firefox >.>
<doctormo> Damn yanks, over confident, over sexed and now they don't even need to be over here.
<doctormo> BiosElement: that's a paraphraise joke btw
<BiosElement> doctormo, I figured. And before I forget, I'm toying with the idea of making a web based editor for the DocBook/asciitext files. I'll start with DocBook and then work on asciitext
<doctormo> BiosElement: Sounds like a good idea, make any reading/writing into libs so it'll be possible to make a gui version
<BiosElement> doctormo, I'm basing it off turbogears so it shouldn't be hard to port over to a gui if we have too.
<doctormo> I don't know what that is
<doctormo> bbl
<cprofitt> Vantrax, you here?
<doctormo> back
<BiosElement> Welcome back doctormo
<Vantrax> whoops.... left IRC on at work over night
<doctormo> Vantrax: No worries, it made you look like you were really attentive :-D
<Vantrax> yay
<Vantrax> make up for the three weeks i was MIA with the baby
<doctormo> How is everyone?
<cprofitt> Vantrax, you there?
<Vantrax> indeed
<Vantrax> whats up cprofitt
<cprofitt> hey Vantrax -- did you ever figure out the capaths
<Vantrax> cprofitt: nope, but it might be a fault on the configuration... maybe...
<Vantrax> turns out they never checked if the inheritance actually worked...
<rdw200169> hey, i just saw Martin's post on the planet, and i wanted to throw some change in the bucket, concerning all this documentation madness
<rdw200169> i would like to suggest some interesting workflow ideas that I use for my projects and the benefits of each accordingly
<knudsonm_> Knudson is here
<rdw200169> let me preface this by noting (strongly) that I prefer restructured Text
<cprofitt> Vantrax, it would be good if they find out if their machines are actually working before you are asked to do it
<cprofitt> Vantrax, what room is our class in?
<Vantrax> cprofitt: no idea
<rippls_> Hi - I'm here for moodle things...
<Vantrax> he he he
<Vantrax> is pleia around?
<cprofitt> pleia2, ping pong gong
<knudsonm_> Mark and Steve are here from Woodland, Washington to help you with Moodle.
<cprofitt> knudsonm_, so the Moodle training is here?
<BiosElement> I'm assuming so.
<knudsonm_> yes, we're here
<knudsonm_> how would you like to start
<BiosElement> And Vantrax pleia2 can't be here.
<cprofitt> sounds good... and this is user based -- as in for the instructor... correct?
<knudsonm_> we have and admin in Steve and a user in me ready to serve you
<knudsonm_> Steve set up Moodle server and runs it, I teach teachers how to use it
<cprofitt> Sounds good. I hope people come... the one question I would start off with (since I have only one course to my credit) is what format/tool would you feel best for teaching IT type courses?
<knudsonm_> I also use it in a middle school computer class, and math class
#ubuntu-learning 2009-09-22
<cprofitt> My class was for Professional Learning Board
<knudsonm_> Moodle is a learning management system, like WebCt and BlackBoard
<knudsonm_> of course we like it because it's Open
<cprofitt> it was for School Administrators though... and thus not very technical in nature
<rippls_> @cprofitt - you mean you've done one course in Moodle?
<cprofitt> My thinking is multiple choice and matching answers would be best for evaluating knowledge gained
<cprofitt> rippls_, yes -- and got paid to do it.
<cprofitt> http://professionallearningboard.com/
<cprofitt> It is why I suggested Moodle for this project
<cprofitt> though I did like Sakai (Sakai had some odd bugs when we tested)
<cprofitt> I also liked Moodle because K-12 institutions are using it
<knudsonm_> moodle has a lot of features, quizzes is just one
<Vantrax> moodle has a much better community support base
<knudsonm_> yes, moodle has huge international community
<cprofitt> and it has a ton of extra features that can be added too it
<knudsonm_> Lots of features are standard and admin has ability to customize a lot
<knudsonm_> this might help
<knudsonm_> moodle is just a website
<cprofitt> true...
<knudsonm_> anything you can do on a website can be done in moodle
<knudsonm_> graphics, video, etc
<cprofitt> My concern is that during my first course I got a lot of guidance on what tools fit my audience
<cprofitt> and I think we need to have a game plan for how to train the technical minded here on how to develop a course
<knudsonm_> i taught a 3-day bootcamp this summer and didn't get through half of what moodle can do
<cprofitt> I would like to see courses in Moodle 'mix' content
<cprofitt> as in some on-line self-directed mixed with IRC chat sessions like this
<cprofitt> While there is a huge depth it would be helpful to know what tools would best fit for teaching technical concepts
<cprofitt> and what the 'core' components are so we can focus on teaching those to course authors
<rippls_> are these course going to be self-guided things (user takes it when-ever) or will the "teacher" be there sometimes?
<cprofitt> both I would assume
<knudsonm_> if they are sychronous, people on at same time, discussion forums and chat could be very useful for technical concepts
<knudsonm_> manuals and tutorials can be posted for review
<rippls_> how much material do you already have, do you have lesson plan?
<cprofitt> I am not currently one of the course designers
<knudsonm_> what is your role?
<cprofitt> Not sure how to answer that... 'instigator' might be best description for now
<rippls_> Moodle lets you structure a course by topics or time periods
<cprofitt> I would like to develop a course later, but my experience with Linux is a bit 'light' right now
<knudsonm_> ha ha ha, we are both instigators as well
<cprofitt> perhaps 'facilitator' would be appropriate
<BiosElement> I'd imagine most of the courses would be by topics to begin with at least.
<rippls_> so it depends on how you want folks to proceed through the material
<cprofitt> I really want to help Ubuntu reach K-12 and to do that we need courses that assist with adoption
<rippls_> so who are these courses aimed at?
<cprofitt> This is one of the issues I think we have...
<cprofitt> we have a 'wide' arc on that
<BiosElement> Depends on the course, We've got courses for system admin and will eventually have courses for beginners.
<Vantrax> rippls_: it varies
<cprofitt> it is for the general Ubuntu audience... home users
<knudsonm_> okay, sounds to me (the teacher), like you are aiming at tech depts
<cprofitt> for small business looking to adopt
<Vantrax> rippls_: three groups really, sysadmin, developers/contributors. and users
<cprofitt> for tech departments
<cprofitt> and potentially for teachers who would like to use FOSS in the classroom
<rippls_> so you're going to have course content on various areas the cover these folks in overlapping kinds of ways...?
<cprofitt> and as Vantrax says those three groups are the 'silos' we made
<knudsonm_> in the k-12 tech world, changing operating systems comes from IT
<cprofitt> I suspect yes... I wish more of the course developers were here.
<knudsonm_> teachers are no all that tech savvy as a whole
<cprofitt> knudsonm_, it can come from both areas
<cprofitt> iPod adoption has been completely teacher driven in my district
 * cprofitt is a Systems Administrator for a K-12 district
<knudsonm_> moodle has podcasting
<Vantrax> yeah, im hoping to use that
<Vantrax> im sure doctormo is too
<rippls_> so one your front page you have three basic "directions" someone can take depending on their interest
<rippls_> and that leads them to relevant courses...?
<cprofitt> I prefer the term mediacast... but I digress
<doctormo> ok I'm here!
<knudsonm_> pod is not FOSS?
<knudsonm_> moodle can:
<knudsonm_> build books
<knudsonm_> build lessons
<knudsonm_> discussion forums
<knudsonm_> chat
<knudsonm_> mediacast
<knudsonm_> quizzes
<knudsonm_> self-testing
<knudsonm_> wikis
<knudsonm_> blogs
<knudsonm_> links to files and website
<knudsonm_> http://courses.woodlandschools.org/course/view.php?id=94
<knudsonm_> moodle bootcamp link above
<doctormo> OK one thing to point to is that tutorials and manuals already exist, we shouldn't be uploading those to our moodle site, but linking to the execelent docs team's work.
<knudsonm_> yes
<knudsonm_> moodle is just a shell
<knudsonm_> a shell called a learning managment system
<rippls_> in a structured way that allows folks to work through them in an order that build on something...
<doctormo> knudsonm_: So the reason for the group is to organise the tools and workflows of course development in the Ubuntu community. This is for online (IRC) teachers or physical community center teachers like myself.
<doctormo> knudsonm_: But the idea is that we collaberate and have a place and format to that in.
<rippls_> then you do some self testing using quizzes so the person can see how much they absorbed...
<doctormo> knudsonm_: So, moodle we hope can offer us a publishing venue. Since development in bzr/launchpad is already very useful.
<knudsonm_> okay this should be fairly simple
<knudsonm_> first you need a moodle server
<knudsonm_> admin would someone a Course Creator
<knudsonm_> Course Creator would then build a class
<knudsonm_> Moodle has sections, called topics, you see examples on the previous moodle bootcamp link
<cprofitt> we already have a Moodle server -- with courses up on it
<cprofitt> Vantrax, do you have the link?
<knudsonm_> link?
<doctormo> knudsonm_: We're hoping that instead of building a class, the course creation would just publish one...
<rippls_> your hoping for automated building of classed?  from what?
<knudsonm_> what format are you current resources? manuals? tutorials?
<doctormo> rippls_: Depends on how moodle is structured, that's what I'm hoping to find out.
<doctormo> rippls_: I don't want to suck the life out of our volunteers when we have to build the kind of resources that we've put ourselves up for.
<doctormo> And having them develop courses and then go through a million hoops to get each new version published would do that.
<doctormo> But as I said, I don't have a clue how moodle works because no one will show me
<cprofitt> once a course is built it can run in multiple session doctormo
<BiosElement> doctormo, Why not just post the "sections" on moodle and link to the html page of the doc?
<cprofitt> ie., it can be resused
<doctormo> BiosElement: Does that allows us to develop quizzes or take advantage of any of the other features of moodle?
<knudsonm_> doctormo_: yes, that would be the easiest
<BiosElement> doctormo, Yep.
<knudsonm_> you can either link to resources or build them in moodle
<knudsonm_> moodle has a gradebook and is designed for academic classes
<doctormo> cprofitt: Once a course is built I expect it to be modified a lot, I don't expect courses to remain very static at first.
<doctormo> cprofitt: And most courses will have to be updated as new versions of ubuntu come out anyway
<rippls_> doctormo: Basic Moodle is a blank slate, it doesn't come with automated features for course generation from some kind of "pool" of resources
<doctormo> cprofitt: My concern is workflow.
<knudsonm_> if file location don't change and filenames don't change, then updates would be automatic
<BiosElement> doctormo, The dynamic bits like quizzes will be manged with moodle, the course would be in it's static html form. Simple solution
<knudsonm_> k-12 has this discussion in the hard text vs online text arguments
<knudsonm_> no matter how cumbersome, online is more up to date
<knudsonm_> textbooks that is
<doctormo> knudsonm_: Our problem would just be 'location of master', since our masters would be online, just not in moodle.
<doctormo> I guess we'll have to pipe the data in or modify the files / databases on the fly as required
<rippls_> How much does the Ubuntu help wiki change month to month?  Once you're pointing at various topics wouldn't it be pretty stable?
<doctormo> So, who will do the step by step walk through?
<knudsonm_> you can link to a remote or local file in moodle
<rippls_> doctormo: what do you mean?
<knudsonm_> docs.moodle.org checking out Moodle Docs might spark some ideas
<knudsonm_> There are "static" documents edited by the community, updated as necessary
<doctormo> I'm hoping someone will be able to help me understand what I'm looking at here, so far I've got a bunch of manuals and no real clue what it means.
<rippls_> do we have a test server we can log into?
<rippls_> I was told that would be possible, I don't want to hand you all the keys to my production server!!
<doctormo> rippls_: Yes, cprofitt or Vantrax do these guys have logon accounts?
<cprofitt> I did not make them one...
<knudsonm_> http://courses.woodlandschools.org/mod/resource/view.php?id=7244 is a link to an Online Moodle book
<knudsonm_> This is free for download through Creative Commons
<cprofitt> this is ours -- http://learn.ufbt.net/
<rippls_> can I log in as an admin?
<cprofitt> that would be up to bodhi and he is not here
<rippls_> ok... so my first comment is everyone is an admin looking at the front page
<rippls_> in Moodle you have a site admin, then course creators the teachers, then students...
<Vantrax> okies sorry about that
<Vantrax> logins.. what logins we need:P
<rippls_> you can structure your site using categories...
<rippls_> they're "boxes" you can put other categories and/or courses into
<Vantrax> test environment you can do anything with: http://learn.bodhizazen.net/moodle/
<rippls_> you can assign right over categories and they filter down to everything below...
<doctormo> ok sounds good rippls_
<rippls_> we sill all need to log in as admin to see the possibilities of structuring course layout...
<Vantrax> okies, give me a min to make generic admin account
<Vantrax> on the playpen http://learn.bodhizazen.net/moodle/ its administrator and testadmin
<knudsonm_> now we're cooking
<Vantrax> most of the links in the theme are dead ends atm
<Vantrax> its a placeholder untill we get some structure worked out
<rippls_> where's the site administration block?
<rippls_> (I'm in...)
<Vantrax> <- knows almost nothing about moodle
<Vantrax> administration block is??
<knudsonm_> this moodle looks foreign to us
<Vantrax> he he he he
<rippls_> Nice interface but it seems to be stripped of editing functionality!
<Vantrax> okies, ill see if I can give you admin in the live environment:P
<Vantrax> bah cprofitt can you remember what the openID URL's looked like
<Vantrax> i know they are based on the launchpad ones
<doctormo> Interesting
<Vantrax> got it
<BiosElement> Ok, I'll offer up my test install of moodle if it'd help. I can give the primary admin login to whoever needs it to toy around.
<cprofitt> https://launchpad.net/~<yourname>
<knudsonm_> I'm almost thinking that everyone should go read the Introduction and Chapter 1 of the Using Moodle book
<knudsonm_> this will give you a big picture of what Moodle can do
<knudsonm_> you might not need what Moodle can do
<cprofitt> we have two courses in moodle already...
<Vantrax> ok so its testadmin and testadmin
<knudsonm_> Moodle can be just a website on steroids or it can manage an online university course
<cprofitt> I got them off of other sites... they were Creative Commons courses
<Vantrax> on the live site
<rippls_> so where are we logging into...
<BiosElement> How about we just use a plain vanilla install of moodle.
<BiosElement> Have fun - http://bioselement.com/uclp/moodle/ Username: admin Password: password
<Vantrax> http://learn.ufbt.net/
<rippls_> BiosElement: well that works...
<BiosElement> It should. >.> I don't care if I have to re-install it and it should be working fine.
<rippls_> can everyone get in there?
<knudsonm_> i gotta go, i have parents coming for open house night
<BiosElement> I'm pretty sure it'll work for everyone.
<Vantrax> it works:P
<doctormo> Yes
<Vantrax> ducking out for a few min
 * Vantrax lives in Australia and is at work
<rippls_> so under sourses/add/edit courses you can create categories and courses...
<rippls_> you create those and then assign roles...
<rippls_> try to assign roles as low down as you can so they don't traverse other peoples stuff...
<rippls_> if you look at our front page http://courses.woodlandschools.org/ everything there is a category
<rippls_> the teachers are course creators within those and they build the courses
<doctormo> rippls_: OK that makes sense, so our roles would be course publishers (who manage the course organisation and which things to merge in)
<rippls_> basically a "course creator" can initiate a new course
<rippls_> you can have "editing teachers" who can alter existing courses
<cprofitt> doctormo, I have always seen our roles as 'course authors', 'course facilitators' and admins
<rippls_> and "non-editing" teachers (probably not much use to you)
<cprofitt> some facilitators may not be editors
<doctormo> cprofitt: I don't know what a course facilitator is
<BiosElement> doctormo, Teachers Aid sums it up.
<rippls_> I would differentiate the course content into areas and then have someone that is the "course creator" for that section
<doctormo> I reckon no one should be editing the courses through moodle, so everyone other than the course organiser would be read only.
<rippls_> students can't edit courses, only acces material
<rippls_> you should allow "login as guest" unless you want everyone to have to create an account
<doctormo> rippls_: Can we have read access to the public without logging on?
<cprofitt> rippls_, I do not mind guest access to view the catalog, but I would think an account would be needed to participate in a course
<BiosElement> doctormo, Yes, the login as guest
<rippls_> depends what you want the folks to do...
<doctormo> BiosElement: So by default your "logged" as guest and then log in as someone else if you need to?
<BiosElement> doctormo, By default you're not logged in at all and can either login as a guest or as a user. I think I understand it right
<rippls_> different courses can have different permissions if you need them
<rippls_> you have to log in as a guest at minimum to see course content
<cprofitt> BiosElement, yes
<doctormo> BiosElement: Well that's not very good
<doctormo> I wonder if we can fix it so everyone is guest.
<rippls_> you only need to differentiate between users if you're in forums or handing in assignments etc
<rippls_> it completely up to yo if you allow folks to create personal profiles
<cprofitt> doctormo, I would prefer with facilitated courses to require an actual account
<cprofitt> using openID is not that difficult
<BiosElement> I enabled autologin for guests doctormo So it is possible
<rippls_> I've got to go soon... is there anything else you want details on re Moodle?
<doctormo> cprofitt: I agree, if required we can tie it to launchpad openid specifically
<cprofitt> we already have that working doctormo
<cprofitt> I log in using my openID
<doctormo> rippls_: I'd like to thank you and knudsonm_ for taking the time to answer some of our questions and go through a few things
<BiosElement> rippls_, As would I. Thank you both for your time and help.
<doctormo> cprofitt: No, I meant tie as is afix, so people can only use launchpad openid and no other.
<BiosElement> doctormo, Why do that...I think you're making this more complicated then it needs to be... >.>
<cprofitt> doctormo, ah...
<cprofitt> I would rather it be an either or...
<cprofitt> so people are comfortable with their method of registering
<doctormo> cprofitt: For students yes, teachers and admins though should have lp accounts don't you think?
<doctormo> Of course I'm not too bothered
<cprofitt> the facilitated courses would be tough if the facilitator had no idea which student was asking a question
<BiosElement> Well that's good because we're making this more complex then it needs to be now. Let em make a moodle account and be done with it. Simple as that, no need to get fancy.
<cprofitt> I think for authors/admins/facilitators they should have LP accounts yes
<rippls_> thanks... some of you have got our email address I think... feel free to email...
<doctormo> BiosElement: It doesn't need to be complex, I'd be happy if after the design set up the only work on the moodle sign was setting up classroom events.
<BiosElement> Well my vote is just to keep things as simple as possible, Every teacher gets a moodle account, students get one to ask questions or take a quiz, course creators get launchpad accounts, etc.
<BiosElement> Really at this point I think our goal needs to be to simply get something that 'works' up and running
<Vantrax> BiosElement: that is true, but once something is running it becomes harder to change
<Vantrax> we need a workable middle ground that we can hopefully make minor changes too
<BiosElement> Vantrax, To some degree, but we cannot let it cripple us in the here and now while we worry about possible future problems.
<Vantrax> definately... this is something i have argued since the start, we need momentum as much as we need polish
<BiosElement> Exactly.
<youcanlinux> hello, here for moodle meeting
<dinda> youcanlinux: hi
<youcanlinux> hi dinda
<cprofitt> Vantrax, we have a regular meeting too right?
<Vantrax> I think so
<Vantrax> Monday September 21st @ 9pm EDT (01:00 UTC September 22nd)
<cprofitt> hey dinda
<dinda> cprofitt: hey there!
<cprofitt> Vantrax, doctormo pleia2 -- meeting in #ubuntu-meeting or in here?
<dinda> pleia2 is off at a plug meeting tonight
<cprofitt> k
<cprofitt> I am in my NY State meeting too
<cprofitt> and there is no 'agenda'
<cprofitt> so not sure if we need to go to #ubuntu-meeting or just be informal in here as needed
<dinda> then perhaps just a general 'state of where things stand" and some open questions?
<Vantrax> sounds good
<youcanlinux> k
<dinda> i've been working on getting Moodle help for the team - there was supposed to be a session earlier today
<dinda> did anyone make it?
<cprofitt> Yes... they were here at 7pm EDT
<cprofitt> I was here, but I did not really need help -- Vantrax and doctormo asked some questions though
<dinda> great!
<Vantrax> I think the big issue is we need to define roles for people and categories that content will come under
<Vantrax> both are somewhat worked out but not finalised
<Vantrax> we need to formalise it a bit and get things into the moodle install
<Vantrax> Once we have those sorted I can get our theme fixed up so its ready to use
<cprofitt> I agree Vantrax
<dinda> excellent - is there a wiki page to help list the roles?
<Vantrax> also we need to get some momentum going again
<Vantrax> none yet:P
<cprofitt> yeah... I am sorry I have not been present recently...
<Vantrax> the categories are somewhat defined as the 4 sections on our homepage on the wiki
<cprofitt> feel very bad about that...
<youcanlinux> may i chime in ?
<cprofitt> ... important in my other meeting... bbiaf
<Vantrax> go for it youcanlinux
<dinda> youcanlinux: please do
<youcanlinux> I am into pedagogy and computers and tried moodle and I liked what I saw. I had set it up recently on Ubuntu, and now that I'm trying to set it up with postgresql, I'm having issues.
<youcanlinux> I understood this meeting tonight to be about tweaking and using Moodle, from a practical standpoint.
<Vantrax> id catch up with bodhizazen if you want to help configuring moodle, this group is about a particular installation used for helping teach ubuntu to new people
<youcanlinux> In other words, I don't think this is a developer's meeting so much as it is about educator's trying to sort out moodle?
<youcanlinux> I'm not here for help with my configuration, i'll get it sorted out. I am curious about why people would use open-source software like moodle and what they want help with.
<youcanlinux> I'm a big Ubuntu fan and I really like moodle. I am curious about what questions ppl might have about it.
<dinda> youcanlinux: there are several reasons education is switching to open source. . .
<dinda> youcanlinux: first, the free licenses make it easy to try
<youcanlinux> "For helping teach Ubuntu to new people" that sounds great. I'm a big fan of open source.
<dinda> youcanlinux: but also from an education standpoint, the way open source works matches very well with various educational philosophies and teaching methodoogies
<dinda> There is no cost, other than time to try open source software, the next step is in matching the technology to teaching content/methodology
<dinda> youcanlinux: it's that second step that many education institutions have problems with
<youcanlinux> I've worked in public schools
<dinda> which country?
<youcanlinux> us
<youcanlinux> in canada now
<dinda> youcanlinux: it's bit off topic for the meeting but we can talk more after this meeting
<youcanlinux> right. don't want to take away from the meeting, please proceed.
<dinda> youcanlinux: the learning project is about trying to develop training for the ubuntu community using a moodle-hosted solution
<dinda> so far, the team has a working Moodle install and severl eager folks starting to build courses. . .
<dinda> earlier tonight there was a group helping the developers get the various roles and permissions sorted out on the server
<dinda> on the mailing list there is also a discussion going on about various formats for developing the course materials
<dinda> william chambers wrote our a great comparison of different options for developing the course materials
<dinda> while I understand the need for standardization I worry that trying to force everyone into using one format may limit new contirbutors
<cprofitt> dinda, I agree.
<doctormo> Ah damn, forgot about the meeting
<dinda> doctormo: heh!
<dinda> doctormo: how did the session go earlier?
<dinda> Vantrax: so where are we in terms of the server?  you said you've got some work to do on the theme?
<BiosElement> dinda, I understand we will limit contributors some, but as I've said before, if they won't take a small amount of time to invest in learning how to format it, they won't last and if they do the work will most probably be poor.
<Vantrax> dinda: you need to have standardisation to make thinks reasonably uniform in style
<doctormo> dinda: Very well, you wanted updates on where things stand?
<dinda> BiosElement:  if there is a content/QA team then that could help in making sure courses meet your standards
<Vantrax> Theme is basically done, but links and some text need to be done, but the links require that the course structures are established
<cprofitt> I think we may need style guidelines for facilitated, self-paced, etc
<Vantrax> dinda: there was a plan for that in the structure somewhere
<doctormo> cprofitt, Vantrax: there is still momentum, but it's been confined to me, pleia2 and BiosElement these past few weeks. It would be great to get either more people involved or all the board members contributing once their free time is back.
<Vantrax> my time is back
<Vantrax> well mostly
<Vantrax> I still have a 3 week old
<youcanlinux> dinda, I created an account at moodle.org. how do I contact you?
<youcanlinux> I'm not feeling well, I need to get going.
<dinda> youcanlinux: dinda@ubuntu.com
<cprofitt> doctormo, I agree... I am almost done with the heavy part at work... and still have three kids
<cprofitt> if I can find a 'natural' fit in a course I can do I would be willing to develop one
<youcanlinux> thanks.
<doctormo> Of course, I see the priorities as being a) formalise (which is mostly done I think) b) tool up (in progress, doctormo and bodi) c) build community and content.
<dinda> cprofitt: i'm going to try to work with dougie richardson, formerly of the doc team on a short course for irc ops and/or contributing to the doc team
<cprofitt> dinda, cool.
<cprofitt> SO can we cover non-ubuntu stuff...
<cprofitt> like Open Office, etc?
<doctormo> cprofitt, Vantrax: I'm fairly certain that getting the style sheets of the moodle server finialised is a part of b)
<dinda> cprofitt: don't see why not but there are other places that have such content
<BiosElement> cprofitt, Open Office is ubuntu basically so I'd hope so
<Vantrax> cprofitt: i would consider Open Office to be critical to using ubuntu...
<doctormo> I'm working on the tools to make contributing as easy as falling on your face, all we gotta sort is tooling the publishing to moodle part.
<cprofitt> dinda, I agree... but people looking to use Ubuntu may expect that content to be with us as well.
<doctormo> then we can start c) I think, how does this sound as a plan?
<Vantrax> that being said id rather not reinvent the wheel and reuse, repurpose, and retool existing materials
<cprofitt> I agree... reference to wiki articles etc. do not need to be redone inside a Moodle course
<cprofitt> doctormo, with your automation is it acceptable that people comfortable with building Moodle courses do so with the Moodle tools?
<Vantrax> Then i think you have issues with style and content differences and the moodle install turns into a large collection of links
<Vantrax> if a linked site goes offline the capability is gone
<cprofitt> Vantrax, then the course would need to build the material in or change links
<Vantrax> i would rather attempt to get permission to recreate materials in moodle source formats where possible in the long run
<cprofitt> it is similar to using a book as a course material
<cprofitt> it may become out of print
<BiosElement> Possible Solution:
<doctormo> cprofitt: The tools don't work with moodle yet, not even from bzr to moodle, let alone the other way round.
<cprofitt> doctormo, but I know and am comfortable with building a course in Moodle... is that acceptable?
<doctormo> cprofitt: We can always translate them for you
<BiosElement> Why not just host the book at ourmoodle.com/books/course.html and run a cron to pull the bzr, turn it into html and post it every 24h. Then we just post a link to the book and have lessons link to the book sections when needed.
<doctormo> Just like BiosElement said he would for people who devel in odf
<cprofitt> translate them to waht?
<doctormo> cprofitt: asciidocs in bzr/lp
<cprofitt> if the courses are going to be published in Moodle why are we translating them?
<BiosElement> Because a standard format is important
<BiosElement> We can then offer easy ways to download/print courses
<cprofitt> Is not Moodle a standard format?
<doctormo> cprofitt: Because moodle isn't a good collaberative development platform, or a good translation service.
<BiosElement> Not really, moodle is a moodle format >.>
<cprofitt> ok... got ya on that part...
<cprofitt> so all Moodle is really serving us as then is a publishing point
<BiosElement> I think we should view moodle as a social platform
<cprofitt> well... other Moodle users would be able to download Moodle courses and add them to their installation
<BiosElement> Where we have the extra supplement stuff such as quizzes, teachers, etc.
<BiosElement> cprofitt, That's a bad idea on so many levels >.>
<Vantrax> BiosElement: they can, they are CC afterall
<cprofitt> BiosElement, ? um... why?
<dinda> BiosElement: ditto, was just going to point that out
<doctormo> No sharing is good and the reason we license as we do
<Vantrax> they do have to leave attribution to say where it all came from tho
<BiosElement> Legally yes, but it'd be silly. It just splits content up, and the real users would not run a server just to install moodle and play with the docs.
<doctormo> It's not important for us to consider the distribution effects, not when we don't yet have a solid workflow ourselves.
<Vantrax> oh i see
<Vantrax> BiosElement: he was talking about other people who teach using moodle, not our users per se
<BiosElement> Vantrax, I kinda see what you mean but that's what the html doc would be for...a "book" for their students to read.
<Vantrax> yeah, that too
<doctormo> BiosElement: Say if a teacher at Harvard wants to use one of our courses, then he could import it into his internal, private moodle.
<Vantrax> I think both are equally importaint depending how you plan on teaching
<Vantrax> some would prefer to use printed material, some would rather use a moodle installation they have already
<BiosElement> doctormo, Or he could link to a book .html file and be done without having to deal with the "fancy" details of importing a course.
<doctormo> BiosElement: As you said, it's a social target as much as it is a course material portal. Just think about the class events I hope to be adding to the calendar.
<Vantrax> Were about improving the uptake and availability of knowladge of Ubuntu and the FOSS world. If more people have that information that is a good thing
<doctormo> BiosElement: But that's really their choice, or mistake to make. Not ours to prevent.
<Vantrax> All the content will always contain links back to us, thats part of the CC Licencing.
<cprofitt> BiosElement, many K-12 schools have Moodle installs
<doctormo> We don't stop people having private debian archives, even though offical repositories are available.
<cprofitt> if they adopt Ubuntu they may want to use our courses to assist with adoption of Moodle
<BiosElement> Vantrax, I'm not about preventing people from using it, I'm just about not forcing people to install moodle just to read the course info.
<cprofitt> they would want to take our courses but have their 'employees' become the faciliatators
<Vantrax> Oh hell no, thats just an option
<Vantrax> not  a requirement
<doctormo> BiosElement: I'd block anything that required a full moodle install for viewing, that would be aweful.
<cprofitt> and may add 'specifics' in their course that was not in ours
<Vantrax> we want to have them active in OUR moodle installation, but allow people to take the materials away in a variety of formats
<BiosElement> Well I'm not sure that courses made 100% in moodle 'can' be exported in a logical usable way without then inporting into another moodle install.
<Vantrax> I see where your objection is, and that was never on the table as an option:P
<BiosElement> haha, Well good.
<Vantrax> BiosElement: the last plan I saw catered for printed teaching materias/workbooks as well
<cprofitt> Yeah... I would not want to lock people in to Moodle
<Vantrax> not in 'moodle' format but asciidoc or whatever it was
<cprofitt> or lock material behind a Moodle wall
 * Vantrax is still catching up somewhat
<cprofitt> but if downloading and using our course helps adoption I am all for that
<BiosElement> From just looking at moodle for 15 minutes, I don't think there's a way to export/backup moodle made docs in any format besides moodle's sql dumps and such
<doctormo> It's asciidoc to docbook which gives pdf, html formats as outputs (and lots more)
<dinda> BiosElement: you can also easily export/import from one Moodle server to another
<dinda> i move courses amongst servers/instances all the time
<BiosElement> dinda, Yes, but I don't want to have all the courses made via moodle and then stuck there so users can't download them. That's the only point I'm trying to make.
<dinda> dunno some of it depends on what you want your final course to be. . .
<doctormo> BiosElement: Don't worry, that's not where I would want it to go either.
<dinda> if you just want a series of PDFs they can download, then why even use Moodle
<doctormo> BiosElement: And so far it's not.
<Vantrax> BiosElement: i think alot of other teaching CMS systems can import moodle formats now anyway as its an open standard
<doctormo> dinda: It's a social, organisational and central hub system for materials.
<dinda> if you want an instructor-led or self-paced course that takes advantage of moodle's functionality, then yes, use moodle
<BiosElement> dinda, I think it would be wise to keep everything easy to download for a user. Offline use is very important for people like me with crappy wifi >.>
<doctormo> dinda: The only thing we want to avoid is using moodle for development, but still being able to take advantage of moodle's excelent tools for organising classes, teachers and students.
<Vantrax> I think we will have more self-paced than instructor lead
<Vantrax> BiosElement: that is the point of the asciidoc files
 * cprofitt nods at Vantrax 
<dinda> all the quizzes, forums, etc can only be used within moodle
<Vantrax> BiosElement: they are for offline work, or printed use in class environments with limited computing access
<cprofitt> doctormo, but if we have people who are comfortable with Moodle development (read teachers) can we take their stuff and reverse it in to what you want?
<cprofitt> dinda, that is what I thought as well...
<doctormo> cprofitt: We should do that, but it's manual and once I've finished with the tools, it shouldn't be more dificult to do unmoodle updates. The problems will come from allowing moodle mods and having those mods destroyed by updates.
<cprofitt> yeah...
<cprofitt> I can see that.
<Vantrax> these are some of the fun issues we have to decide on:P
<doctormo> OK any last thoughts before the "meeting" is over?
<Vantrax> Id like to see a structure of roles outlined this week
<cprofitt> none from me...
<Vantrax> and aligning that with the 'team' structure that bodhi was working on
<cprofitt> this was fairly productive
<cprofitt> sorry for being distracted by my NY Loco meeting
<Vantrax> then we can get in and configure the site to start taking courses
<doctormo> Vantrax: You saw the graph I made for the structure of a course data set, I could draw one up of bodi's and the groups thoughts on rolls.
<Vantrax> that woul dbe nice
<Vantrax> im going to do some more polishing on the theme
<doctormo> Vantrax, wonderful, let me know if you need any help replacing some of those 8bit icons with some from the human theme
<Vantrax> yeah, I want to:P
<Vantrax> help would be great with that
<BiosElement> http://andrewk.webfactional.com/asciidoc.php?sample_document=true
<BiosElement> If anyone wants to play around with asciidoc
<Vantrax> I really like the look of asciidoc, no image support tho
<BiosElement> Yes there is
<doctormo> Vantrax: The problem with that moodle site has always been getting a local instance set up. all the code is on launchpad now right?
<Vantrax> ..not really
<Vantrax> i just use bodhi's test server as i can ssh into it
<doctormo> Vantrax: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-learning-moodle
<Vantrax> yeah, i know its there
<Vantrax> just dont commit to it
<Vantrax> too annoying to use imo
<doctormo> Vantrax: Oh go on, for me, as a personal favour? the code hosting for code that's in development?
<Vantrax> ill see if i can get it sorted
<Vantrax> im in the process of getting a ubuntu vm running at home so I can work wherever easily
<doctormo> Vantrax: Excelent opertunity to only download code from the branch and then get it working on your VM :-D
<Vantrax> ....
<Vantrax> i was just going to replace whats up there with the new version then try and behave from there on:P
<cprofitt> Vantrax, still has to get capaths working
<cprofitt> :-)
<Vantrax> shhh dont remind me
<doctormo> Vantrax: No, that's the plan I had imagined.
<Vantrax> the server weenies are still trying to verify that the trust relationship works by actually logging someone in:P
<cprofitt> I personally think with the stuff I read today that your AD guys might not have the trust setup right
<Vantrax> I do too, I told em so yesterday and they are still trying to prove it does:P
<cprofitt> I think that they might, after much trying, decide to do a single tree with two domains
<cprofitt> Vantrax, I never would have asked another sys admin to make his systems work with my servers if I had not verified the setup with my own systems
<Vantrax> yeah, they just ran the internal verification
<Vantrax> not an actual real world test
<Vantrax> so im sitting here waiting to get Windows, Linux, and OSX working....
<cprofitt> ascii docs looks interesting
 * Vantrax is a kinda super sysadmin / SOE Developer
<cprofitt> I help with OS X and Windows
<doctormo> Gah, how can I view a folder full of small icon images... nautilus is still broken.
<cprofitt> I have not joined a Linux client to AD yet
<cprofitt> I got our OS X machines working after the previous two Apple Sys Admins failed
<cprofitt> took me five days to have a working system as a proof of concept for the remaining Apple technicians who said it could not be done
<cprofitt> we use OD for machine management via Work Group Manager
<Vantrax> cprofitt: you dont have to join a machine to the domain to run authentication and file services through it
<cprofitt> Vantrax, true
<Vantrax> which is what im doing
<cprofitt> I log in to file resources all the time w/o them
<Vantrax> Mac and Linux dont really get any benefits from joining the domain
<cprofitt> I think to get a Kerb ticket you need to join them
<Vantrax> nope
<Vantrax> you can just install the krb5 client and run kinit <username> and get a ticket
<cprofitt> Hmm... I used the Directory Utility on the Mac to setup the AD stuff
<cprofitt> and it joins...
<Vantrax> then you can use krb5 with pam and do logins, or with samba to do file shares, or with ncpmount...
<cprofitt> I can then use the AD groups to control administrative rights on the macs, get home directory information from AD, etc
<Vantrax> can do that stuff through samba without joining. Thats how we are doing it to mount networked homes
<cprofitt> You are running a script then to get the kerb ticket?
<cprofitt> including reading AD for the users home directory path?
<Vantrax> im actually having pam_krb5 get the ticket
<Vantrax> so its all done via login
<cprofitt> is pam_krb5 on a mac?
<Vantrax> it can be installed im told, and you can install kerberos directly and hook it into the auth system
<cprofitt> why not use their built-in system though?
<Vantrax> so i can do it the same way on two systems:P
 * Vantrax is lazy
<cprofitt> k
<Vantrax> also i can define inheritance manually which i dont think can be done
<cprofitt> Being that I have not done it that way I used their built-in tool
<Vantrax> yeah, the tool makes it reasonably easy, but you have to have the unsecured interface to AD active from what im told
<cprofitt> unsecured interface?
<cprofitt> I know very little about the Mac... so not sure what that is
<Vantrax> thats the AD side
<Vantrax> there are two ways of accessing the AD information to find out users/homes/DN etc
<Vantrax> one is a secured interface, the other isnt
<cprofitt> I do not think it uses the unsecured... but I would have to check
<cprofitt> I am not aware of my AD being readable unless you are authenticated
<Vantrax> Im still learning about all this, our test environment isnt even stable yet. Keeps getting pulled down to fix stuff, copy test user groups etc
<cprofitt> well... if you find a link to OS X using an unsecured interface let me know
<cprofitt> I always thought the machine needed a kerb ticket in order to be able to login.
<cprofitt> I know that when I disable a computer object for a Windows or OS X PC users can no longer login to it using their AD login
<cprofitt> http://gcmac.commons.gc.cuny.edu/2009/06/23/mac-os-x-and-active-directory/
<cprofitt> we are basically using the 'golden triangle'
<cprofitt> Vantrax, are you referring to the fact that you have to do this on the AD server
<cprofitt> Find the item : Microsoft Network Server : Digitally sign communications (always) and set to disabled.
<Vantrax> yeah, then its using the unsecured interface
<cprofitt> from my understanding that only effects the bind request
<cprofitt> nvr mind
<cprofitt> different signing
<cprofitt> the only one I have off on my domain controller is
<cprofitt> LDAP server signing requirements
<cprofitt> I actually have that setting enabled in my environment
<cprofitt> so apparently with OS X 10.4/5, which we are running, that is not the case
<cprofitt> Vantrax, I do not think that is a requirement based on my current settings for my domain controllers
<Vantrax> cool
<Vantrax> another think t ocheck into
<cprofitt> YEP
<cprofitt> sorry for caps
<cprofitt> night all
<doctormo> ta-ra luvs
<pleia2> yay, looks like lots of great discussion today!
 * pleia2 will have to read later
<Vantrax> yeah pleia2
<Vantrax> not so much from them, but they put us on the right path for our meeting to get some productive discussion done
<ZachK18> hello
<ZachK18> anybody here?
<Vantrax> yes
<Vantrax> someone is here...
<Vantrax> ZachK18: most are probably sleeping
<ZachK18> yeah
<matthewlye> figured id get my name locked away:P
<BiosElement> Just tested generating .po files with docbook sourse, easy enough.
<BiosElement> Actually the edubuntu wiki claims it's a .pot file so I guess it may be
<Vantrax> Yeah, i looked through the edubuntu wiki to find out what we could do to help them... LTSP courses look like the way to go
<BiosElement> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<BiosElement> ^Surprisingly useful
<Vantrax> they do good docco
<BiosElement> Ironically they use pure DocBook >.>
<Vantrax> see you all tomorrow
<ZachK18> hello
<BiosElement> lmao, I've been looking into txt2tags versus AsciiDoc and I just found that they added txt2tags export to AsciiDoc back in March >.>
<pleia2> hehe
<BiosElement> Yeah. Granted txt2tags is too limited in the end, but still it's pretty cool.
<BiosElement> +1 for any project that can export docs into like, 25 different formats >.>
<pleia2> I'll have to read the backlog after work today, much discussion of formats last night?
<BiosElement> Honestly, there was so much discussion/debate on things last night it was hard to keep track
<doctormo> pleia2: There was a few things, it mostly centered around the problems of allowing courses to be edited in moodle, which would break workflow.
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> doctormo: ah, people want to do development within moodle?
<doctormo> pleia2: cprofit is used to editing in moodle
<pleia2> I think we need to clarify our intentions with this project
<doctormo> pleia2: It's just a part of figuring out the whole process.
<BiosElement> Well obviously people who already use moodle will want to use something they already know.
<pleia2> as far as I'm concerned, moodle is just one of many platforms for course releasing
<BiosElement> ^
<pleia2> since we're doing live classes, irc classes, moodle...
<doctormo> pleia2: +1
<BiosElement> Another big hit on moodle: It makes it next to impossible to add a different js editor to it.
<BiosElement> Actually the only way to change it is to patch the core files. And that's advice from one of the devs :S
<pleia2> that's a sysadmin nightmare
<BiosElement> Pretty much
<BiosElement> "#  In moodle/lib/weblib.php replace the print_textarea function with the one provided. "
<BiosElement> ^aka a core file >.< Yeah...I'm not going to even bother messing with it
<pleia2> we ues the ubuntu package, it'll just get overwritten during upgrades
<BiosElement> Even if we didn't use the ubuntu package it'd get overwritten the first time someone's in a hurry to upgrade.
<pleia2> yeah
<BiosElement> Now I remember why I hated moodle >.<
<doctormo> BiosElement: I've not been too pleased with the way the styles work, normally a web devel will just hand over a working code base and a bunch of style sheets and we can have a play using firebug and stylish. But moodle doesn't use css well enough for that to work.
<BiosElement> Yeah, I recall skinning styling being horrible. *mutters something about drupal being awesome* >.>
<doctormo> BiosElement: The styling can only be as good as the project organisation and concerns when it comes to styles. I found for intance that in Kowa (library system) I had to devel my own simpler and easier to use templates for checking in/out books.
 * ZachK18 is away: I'm busy...back later
<pleia2> ZachK18: please don't use that here
#ubuntu-learning 2009-09-23
<BiosElement> Anyone around who wants to give me a quick hand?
<BiosElement> Just basically need a second opinion.
<pleia2> BiosElement: still need help?
<pleia2> ZachK18: can you please make sure your away script is turned off here?
<BiosElement> Ahh, yeah pleia2 Thanks. Please take a look at http://txt2tags.sourceforge.net/index.html and tell me what you think. I've basically dismissed it but I can't help but feel it might be useful.
 * pleia2 has a look
<pleia2> what are the reasons you have for dismissing it?
<pleia2> doesn't seem too unreasonable, has the basic functionality and export options we need
<pleia2> ah, no docbook
<BiosElement> Currently because It's focused on a limited number of syntax commands. If I were to expand it (And I'm sure we could) It'd mean I would need to update all the formats
<BiosElement> And it does have DocBook in the "Dev" release
<pleia2> ah, ok
<BiosElement> It's kinda backwords but their "dev" release has like, 6 new formats.
<pleia2> is asciidoc better in this regard?
<BiosElement> Better how so?
<pleia2> number of syntax commands
<BiosElement> AsciiDoc is basically a dropin replacement for DocBook's XML so it's basically got all the features DocBook has.
<pleia2> oh cool
<BiosElement> Since the only format it worries about is DocBook and HTML
 * pleia2 nods
<BiosElement> txt2tags is different mostly due to how simple it is and the easy of expanding it if needed.
<BiosElement> Also I'm 99% sure it works on a standard ubuntu install if you use their python file
<pleia2> ok, maybe we can keep it a consideration, but I really think we're leaning toward asciidoc
<BiosElement> Agreed. Just I wanted to throw this out if for no reason then how versatile it is.
<pleia2> sounds good :)
<BiosElement> I'm also pretty big on AsciiDoc, but the +1 for txt2tags is that It could format for mediawiki, moodle, moinmoin, LaTex, ETC.
<pleia2> wow, doctormo is famous! http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=11167
<pleia2> :)
<shadowdxs> hi
<pleia2> g'day shadowdxs
<shadowdxs> i was wondering if anyone here knew how to upgrade firefox from 3.0.14 to 3.5.2
#ubuntu-learning 2009-09-24
<BiosElement> pleia2, If you're around I need your opinion
<pleia2> BiosElement: I'm working on a migration, but things are rsyncing so I have a few minutes :)
<pleia2> what's up?
<BiosElement> Aight. Do you think having a folder called "book" with all the chapter files for a doc in the same folder as a file called "book.txt" is going to cause a ton of confusion?
<pleia2> nah
<BiosElement> See I've figured out how to split chapters into parts ^_^
<pleia2> cool
<BiosElement> Yep. Just testing to see how images work with it and I may finally be done
<pleia2> :)
<BiosElement> Another good thing I just noticed is that if you test things in html, they look the same in DocBook. So you can ignore the DocBook specific nags of things like article titles to test things that wouldn't even load in docbook
<BiosElement> Oh, and the files will be book/ch01.txt, book/ch02.txt and so forth
<pleia2> seems reasonable
<BiosElement> One catch is that images HAVE to be kept in the root folder.
<BiosElement> Unless you want to type book/images/image.png all the time
<BiosElement> I think I'll leave putting images in sub-folders of the images folder up to the course creators. Some courses may not have a ton of images.
<BiosElement> But if they do it'd be ideal to have a folder for the images of each chapter.
<BiosElement> pleia2, Think this covers the basics of getting started? http://paste.ubuntu.com/276736/
<pleia2> BiosElement: looks good!
<BiosElement> Great. I'm just trying to write enough to get others started >.>
<BiosElement> I must honestly say, AsciiDoc is frankly 'fun' to work with.
<pleia2> \o/
<BiosElement> pleia2, http://bioselement.com/uclp/book.html So far.
<BiosElement> Note that I didn't run spellcheck so it's probably pretty horrible.
<BiosElement> >.>
<pleia2> broken image, but wow, that looks great!
<pleia2> html generated from asciidoc?
<BiosElement> Yes, the image is broken because I didn't want to upload them to the server. It looks fine local.
<BiosElement> And yes, all asciidoc
<pleia2> cool :)
<BiosElement> Obviously it's not done. I'm focusing on the organization of things first to run things past everyone else.
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> looks great so far :)
 * pleia2 hugs BiosElement 
<BiosElement> Aight, great. I'm going to head off in a few but I wanted to get that much done at least.
<BiosElement> haha, thanks. ^_^
<pleia2> ok, take care
<BiosElement> Will do. Lemme know if you have any other comments later. I'll mail doctormo and let him know about it too
<pleia2> doctormo: congrats re: http://blogs.zdnet.com/perlow/?p=11167
<doctormo> pleia2: Having my blog post misreported? :-D
<pleia2> well
<pleia2> you got quoted and stuff, that's neat!
<pleia2> they did link to it at least, so people can read for themselves
<doctormo> True, and I did re-edit my blog to clear up abeguity :-)
<pleia2> that's good
<doctormo> BiosElement: Nice work on the how to page
<txwikinger_work> why are people always so inflamatory?
<pleia2> it gets attention
<txwikinger_work> or turns them off
<doctormo> txwikinger_work: It wasn't even one of my inflamitory blog posts, that's what's annoying to me.
<txwikinger_work> I didn't mean you.. I meant this Jason P... guy
<BiosElement> doctormo, Are you about?
<doctormo> BiosElement: not for much longer
<doctormo> BiosElement: Is it quick?
<BiosElement> Aye, Just thought I might mention that LaTeX has a new-ishly released GUI Editor if it matters.
<doctormo> BiosElement: Your thoughts as always are appricated. Is it very good for this kind of editing?
<BiosElement> Well I don't think LaTeX is a good format myself but lots of people mentioned it. Honestly I think it'd be harder in the end.
<doctormo> BiosElement: That's my fear here, LaTeX was my original thought for a replacement for odf, but to be honest, it's not that easy
<BiosElement> doctormo, My thoughts exactly. I think AsciiDoc is our final choice.
<doctormo> BiosElement: Yep, when I get down to editing my sys admin course, I'll be putting it into asciidoc
<BiosElement> doctormo, I've got some of the early chapter transfered over already for samples. Feel free to check it out. I'm nearly done with organizing things
<doctormo> BiosElement: Cool, when if you have that branch updated, I can merge it in.
<BiosElement> Currently my AsciiDoc branch is as updated as I have it. I do need some review of the organization system and further thoughts whenever people get a chance.
<doctormo> BiosElement: Put it in a merge proposal and email the UCLP mailing list
<BiosElement> doctormo, Ok. But as I said it's not yet a final draft FYI.
<doctormo> BiosElement: As you wish
<BiosElement> Anyway, I know you're busy so I'll let ya get back to things. Should have more work done on it tonight.
<doctormo> BiosElement: Wonderful *hugs*
 * pleia2 hugs BiosElement too
<pleia2> good job :)
<pleia2> maybe I'll just go ahead and put my course into asciidoc too, since it's not done yet
<pleia2> I always say I'll do things like this when I'm on the plane, but then I just sleep instead
<BiosElement> pleia2, It shouldn't be hard. I recommend you check my branch. I've got a template folder which should get you started
<pleia2> ok :)
 * pleia2 skips out to plug meeting
<pleia2> later
<BiosElement> Later
#ubuntu-learning 2009-09-25
<BiosElement> dantalizing, pleia2 You will want to read this. http://groups.google.com/group/asciidoc/browse_thread/thread/a60f67cbbaf862aa/d214bf7fa2d538c4?lnk=gst&q=book&pli=1
<BiosElement> Bah, sorry dantalizing Meant doctormo . You may find it interesting too though.
<BiosElement> Oh, and I just found where Mark Shuttleworth wanted to use AsciiDoc for their internal wiki's.
<doctormo> BiosElement: where?
<BiosElement> Indirectly but here AsciiDoc is the only "wikilike" DocBook system I've heard of. http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/59
<doctormo> pleia2: nice blog post
#ubuntu-learning 2009-09-26
<doctormo> BiosElement: Oh now that my eyes are muddled with Richard III, even though it's new (1995) and set in the 1920s period then included the same language of the imortal bard.
<doctormo> Ah Netflix, you may be a bastard online, but your DVDs I do love.
<Raidsong> moonlight 2 is out
<Raidsong> you can watch flix of the net variety now
<doctormo> Raidsong: And yet still my declaration remainds. What say you?
<Raidsong> the moonlight2 plugin for browser of mozilla allowith you to run silverlight
<Raidsong> and the plugin that tricks netflix into thinking you run a different variety of browser tricks it into letting it play
<doctormo> Raidsong: Why use tricks? To get it working is good for my users, but perhaps not good for the future.
<Raidsong> you have to use tricks its not available for linux users
<Raidsong> we have been cast aside by the silverlight of the microsoft empire
<doctormo> Raidsong: Our aside is not their aside, we don't care for their scraps and to beg at their heal for them.
<Raidsong> but my only other option is to watch them in the gray area of the law
<doctormo> Raidsong: For you as a person no, but for us as a community? Be careful which behaviours you would teach others as correct and sensible, you may find that they are quite disagreeable when everyone performs in that way.
<Raidsong> i have asked netflix to reconsider how they choose to show movies online
<Raidsong> i have wrote a considerable amount of email regarding the subject at hand
<Raidsong> but they believe firmly that silverlight is the way to go
<Raidsong> doctormo, so while i have a netflix account i watch the movies they offer online on other sites willing to stream them. I do not believe i should be discriminated against do to my choice in operating systems.
<doctormo> Raidsong: I agree and yet you are. Be careful on your salt march.
#ubuntu-learning 2009-09-27
<doctormo> BiosElement: Huh, looked at my ToDo board and it looks like I forgot to review your structure, can you pass me the link to it again/
#ubuntu-learning 2010-10-01
* You're now known as ubuntulog
 * matti pokes AlanBell 
 * AlanBell is duely poked
<AlanBell> pleia2: ping
<pleia2> AlanBell: pong
<AlanBell> matti was doing an appdev week talk and somewhat ran over by an hour or two
<AlanBell> and was thinking of doing more of a series of classes on Ruby
<pleia2> that'd be great
