#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-06-01
<detrate> ScottL: http://www.xonotic.org/blog/ << I created this over the weekend
<ScottL> detrate, did you create the whole thing or just the blog part?
<ScottL> it looks good though :)
<ScottL> i like how the social media is off the side and not taking up valuable real estate
<detrate> the entire site
<detrate> with [some] integration to the forums
<detrate> it will evolve and connect more in time
<detrate> but it's integrated with the main social media sites and has great SEO / easy to use backend
<detrate> it's going to serve well to communicate information about the project, both giving and reciving.  I want to do the same for ubuntu studio :)
<ScottL> that would be absolutely awesome!
<ScottL> detrate, i've been thinking that a introductory video of ubuntu studio is really needed for the new website home page
<ScottL> i'm not good at making movies, but maybe we can find someone...maybe i'll find time to post at ubuntu forums about it
<detrate> that's a good idea
<detrate> usually, name, video, tag line, mission statement and screenshots are good for the front page
<detrate> and share icons, newsletter
<ScottL> i really am pretty excited about all this, we are really making some significant progress (in a holistic sense)
<ScottL> you with the website, knocking out some bugs, dealing with jack<->pulseaudio
<ScottL> oh, jack in the main
<detrate> yeah, organization in key
<detrate> is*
<ScottL> if we could get someone who knows art to knock up a new theme, icon set, etc, that'd be ace
<ScottL> it would be great if cory could come back...at least as art lead
<detrate> I can do dark themes but I request the inclusion of gnome-color chooser
<ScottL> i don't even know what gnome-color chooser is   :0   LOL
<ScottL> is it the one where you pick something and it tells you which color it is?
<ScottL> a theme around heavy metal music would be my personal inclination, not with pictures of rock'n roll peoples, just that kind of colors, theme
<detrate> gnome-color-chooser is an advanced color schemer for gnome
<ScottL> i thought about redoing the 'human' icon set, but make it dark with some ubuntu studio blue and call it 'dead human' icon set :)
<detrate> http://gnomecc.sourceforge.net/
<detrate> gnome-colors man
<detrate> that's where the sweetness is at
<detrate> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/gnome-colors?content=82562
<ScottL> it is in the repos yet?
<detrate> which?
<detrate> I'm talking about two things
<detrate> gnome-color-chooser, yes
<detrate> gnome-colors... (icon set) not sure
<ScottL> gnome-color-chooser
<ScottL> sorry, saw the answer after i typed the question
<ScottL> adding gnome-color-chooser would be easy, just add it to the seeds :)
<ScottL> oh vey, i'm tired, got up way too early and did way too much outside with the kids today, off to bed for me
<ScottL> g'night detrate
<stochastic> detrate, you still around?
<stochastic> detrate, I'd love to really discuss the website with you.  I've already approached the server admins at canonical and learnt very much about what will and won't work (i.e. what's worth our time, and what's not) on a web revamp.  Let's talk.
<detrate> I'm heading to sleep but can you give me a summary?
<detrate> will they allow wordpress?
<stochastic> detrate, maybe but the system is currently running on drupal and ALL underlying changes (i.e. non-cosmetic) will need to be audited and approved by the security council
<stochastic> I'm familiar enough with drupal that I don't think switching to wordpress is needed or worth it
<stochastic> I'm happy to help enough that it shouldn't be needed
<stochastic> p.s. poke me with my name next time and I'll respond faster
<quadrispro> ScottL, ping
<scott-work> quadripspro: once the maverick alpha iso is released and i test lv2rack/zynjacku i was going to mark the zynjacku/lv2jack bug as 'fix released'
<scott-work> and thanks for archiving the REVU for zynjacku, i was wondering how to do that but was deferring it until maverick alpha iso as well
<scott-work> quadrispro: way to go on lv2vocoder, i might have to grab the deb or source from debian and try this out on my testing parition :)
<quadrispro> good :)
<quadrispro> scott-work, could you help improving lv2vocoder description?
<scott-work> seriously, i'm doing a ubuntu studio presentation this weekend and lv2vocoder could make a *HUGE* impact along with rakarrack
<quadrispro> sure, vocoders always have great impacts :)
<scott-work> quadrispro: absolutely, it probably will be in a few days though as i have several things in my queue that are "almost" finished and i really want to clear them off my todo list
<quadrispro> scott-work, take your time, do you already have an account on alioth?
<scott-work> no, that's further down on my list :)
<quadrispro> scott-work, please get one, so would be able to do lots of cool things :)
<quadrispro> like becoming a member of debian multimedia
<quadrispro> pushing to git repo etc
<quadrispro> :)
<scott-work> i like cool things :)  i will do it
<scott-work> i find that i manage things better if i keep a list and more or less follow it, because if not i forget things or skip things and then never come back to them
<scott-work> and if it's worth putting on the list then i feel like it's worth doing :P
<scott-work> but, i'm really about to clear several items off during this week
<quadrispro> scott-work, I tried many times to maintain a kind of TODO list, but I always lost them :/
<quadrispro> scott-work, BTW, maverick will be a release with a lot of great multimedia-related stuff
<scott-work> quadrispro: i have also bookmarked both of the links you gave us earlier about debian multimedia and the launchpad team, i really do plan on joining :)
<quadrispro> I'm happy to hear that :)
<scott-work> quadrispro: i hope so (greate multimedia-related stuff) and i hope it works well
<quadrispro> yes, indeed we need a lot of testing
<quadrispro> more stuff = more testing
<scott-work> quadrispro: i've been meaning to ask, for the lv2 stuff, are you using that matrix to keep up with what you are doing?
<scott-work> what i mean is, is that the best place to find out what is working or already in debian?
<quadrispro> scott-work, for now I'm using that matrix and (again, for now) is not a wrong place.
<scott-work> good :)
<scott-work> i wanted to have an idea for moderating the menu entries in ubuntustudio-menu
<quadrispro> maybe in the future, when lv2 plugins number raises, we would need to find a better platform
<scott-work> because of the sub-menu all the new applications will be under 'sound & video' originally instead of 'audio production'
<quadrispro> mmm
<scott-work> i've talked a little with persia about it before, he seemed to be against making gross changes to the menus that create a bigger delta from the desktop standards
<scott-work> the freedesktop standards seem to be tailored for a generic desktop, and more than a little unwieldy for a multimedia distro
<quadrispro> yes, but there are a lot of sub-categories..
<quadrispro> I know the standards but I don't know much about how to manage this kind of things...
<scott-work> also, we may need to prod some people in REVU (or possibly out of REVU) to get the packages falktx submitted pushed through and into the repositories
<quadrispro> can you mail me the URL?  I have to leave now
<scott-work> re: standards and menu - i *think* persia's main complaint was that the standards exist and should be used OR fix the standards, don't just jimmy around and hack a solution rather than fix the problem
<scott-work> certainly
<scott-work> do you have a preferred email quadrispro , i can get several from your wiki pages
<quadrispro> scott-work, LOL you're right
<quadrispro> i have too many mail address
<scott-work> is gmail account okay?
<quadrispro> but let's use my *new* mail address
<quadrispro> alessio@debian.org
<scott-work> oooohhhh, sweet!   i'm jealous :)
<quadrispro> scott-work, please don't use gmail address, I've set some rules based on the recipient address 
<quadrispro> scott-work, eh eh eh, fresh DD, just from yesterday
<scott-work> CONGRATULATIONS!  that is uber sweet
<quadrispro> :)
<quadrispro> scott-work, leaving, see you later! :)
<scott-work> bye, email sent also
<scott-work> in opensourcemusicians we were discussing setting up jack and a thought occured to me
<scott-work> the standard setting that come in jack with a new isntall is pretty cappy, even for onboard audio
<scott-work> i wonder if we could change those settings to something a little more "sane"
<scott-work> this might cover a lot of the "it should work out of the box" complaints
<falktx> howdy all!
<scott-work> hi falktx  :)
<falktx> hi scott
<rlameiro> scott-work: do you have the link for the LAC talks video/audio?
<scott-work> rlameiro: http://lac.linuxaudio.org/2010/recordings/day1_1400_Pro_Audio_is_Easy_Consumer_Audio_is_Hard.ogv
<scott-work> that is what i had, you can probably get some other stuff from there as well :)
<rlameiro> thanks scott-work 
<rlameiro> scott-work: i set the !571368 to invalid
<rlameiro> !571368
<rlameiro> bug  !571368
<scott-work> #571368
<scott-work> bug #571368
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 571368 in rosegarden (Ubuntu) "jack & rosegarden can't play sound realtime using midi device" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/571368
<scott-work> rlameiro: yeah, i saw that, it looks like it was as i suggested earlier in the bug
<scott-work> it actually turned out pretty good because he was sort of arrogant about his bug and i wanted to show him it wasn't ubuntu studio so it forced me to actually use Rosegarden for the first time
<scott-work> now i want to use it more :)
<falktx> scott-work: ardour 2.8.8 is out
<falktx> scott-work: is the mute patch there?
<falktx> scott-work: or you don't know?
<scott-work> ohhh, i don't know, i'll have to look :)
<falktx> scott-work: did you create a bug inthe ardour tracker?
<scott-work> there was one already there...hold on, i can get it quick
<scott-work> http://tracker.ardour.org/view.php?id=2832
<scott-work> looks like rlameiro posted there as well
<falktx> i'm not sure if the patch get applied
<scott-work> reading the release notes it doesn't look it falktx 
<falktx> then we'll  have to patch it again
<falktx> i'll be back tomorrow
<falktx> see ya!
<detrate-> yeah... so sans wordpress... I don't really have a drop in solution for you guys
<detrate-> my friend is still working on a design
<detrate-> which I can slice and pass off to someone else more familiar with drupal
<detrate-> but I do not have the time to dedicate to building a drupal site from the ground up
<detrate-> especially with tight restrictions coming from the top
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-06-02
<rlameiro> ScottL: are you there
<rlameiro> just pointing ou a cool paining app
<rlameiro> maybe worth beeing included by defaul on ubuntustudio
<rlameiro> it is on universe
<rlameiro> mypaint
<ScottL> rlameiro,  isn't mypaint like paint in microsoft?
<rlameiro> nope
<rlameiro> its a paint like metaphor
<ScottL> oh, i guess i'll have to look at it then :)
<rlameiro> aptget it
<rlameiro> its aweso to play with
<rlameiro> it haves lots of brushes and textuers and stuff
<rlameiro> i am not into painting, but it looked quite neat
<ScottL> stochastic, are you around?
<rlameiro> ScottL: http://tracker.ardour.org/view.php?id=2832
<rlameiro> chack the las post by paul davis
<rlameiro> maybe the patch needs some work
<rlameiro> as i remeber there are some "yes" over there
<ScottL> rlameiro, i had noticed that when i made the mute patch but to be honest i didn't want to adjust those settings because a) i wasn't sure what they would do (i really didn't look) and b) i haven't noticed any other bugs and didn't want to introduce any changes/bugs
<rlameiro> ok
<ScottL> that doesn't make it right though :)   do you want to look at the the source and see what the other options are?
<ScottL> rlameiro, if you 'apt-get source ardour' you can look under /ardour-2.8.6 for the ardour.rc file (this is what creates the local ardour.rc file in the home directory i believe)
<rlameiro> maybe i can digg on that latter ScottL 
<ScottL> i'm also engaging paul in witty banter:  http://ardour.org/node/3599#comment-21492
<scott-work> quadrispro: i built lv2vocoder last night in ppa but couldn't get it to install and run :(
<scott-work> i also grabbed the .deb file from the debian archives and tried to install it, same problem
<scott-work> in both cases it appears not to install
<scott-work> i try the 'whereis' command and can't find lv2vocoder :(
<scott-work> any ideas or suggestions?
<scott-work> oh, i should say that to build the vocoder, i added debian sid source to my sources.list and built it in launchpad ppa
<falktx> i have ot on my ppa
<falktx> have you checked it scott-work?
<falktx> it works for me
<scott-work> i shall
<scott-work> i should also note that i checked the build log and i didn't see any errors (that i could tell)
<scott-work> but i'll check falktx's ppa version tonight also....perhaps it's just my machine :\
<falktx> perhaps the file was not installed?
<falktx> some typo in the debian/rules ?
<scott-work> good idea falktx!  i will check that as well tonight, thanks
<falktx> that happened a lot with me
<falktx> a simple typo cause the package to be empty
<falktx> although it really compiled the software
<scott-work> dh_auto_install -- LV2_INSTALL_PATH=$(CURDIR)/debian/lv2vocoder/usr/lib/lv2
<scott-work> this was in the rules file, i'm pretty sure i don't have a debian directory on my ubuntu install :)  but wouldn't this create the directory though?
<scott-work> lol, ardour-2.8.9 is out now that fixes the infamous mute bug http://ardour.org/node/3611
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-06-03
 * abogani2 waves
<abogani2> persia: Are you around?
<ScottL> abogani2, it looks like 2.6.33 -generic is out, i thought i saw that someone said you had a 2.6.33 -rt kernel ?
<ScottL> hi rlameiro , are you through final exams
<rlameiro> not yet
<rlameiro> i am finishing the classes reports and making the exercices book
<rlameiro> its like thesis, no final exams..
<abogani2> ScottL: It isn't yet finished but it is also available in my PPA.
<ScottL> abogani2, not that i think i want it since -generic is pretty good to me, and i know that i should try -generic, then -preempt (if available), then -lowlatency, and then -rt :)
<abogani2> ScottL :-)
<abogani2> ScottL_, My laptop is died :-(((((
<abogani2> jussi, Are you around?
<falktx> hi there
<falktx> ScottL_: it seems that you're patch was finally applied
<falktx> ardour 2.8.9 just came out
<falktx> nice work!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-06-04
<ScottL_> i don't think it was my patch that was really applied to ardour, i think paul was trying to fix the parsing of 'yes' as affirmative
<ScottL_> abogani2, what happened to your laptop?
<astraljava> Wassup Scott?
<abogani2> ScottL_: Dead. :-(
 * abogani2 is very sad 
<abogani2> A friend have lent me an old eeePC 900. And I'm using it for packaging  linux-rt... (it is terribly slow)
<ScottL_> i bet it is slow :(   do you know what caused your laptop to die?
<abogani2> ScottL_: No. It stop to switch on (thus something about power I suspect). 
<abogani2> :-(
<ScottL_> that is sad, i'm terribly sorry
<ScottL_> although that was very considerate of your friend to lend you the eeePC
<abogani2> ScottL_: Do you know where is persia?
 * abogani2 is screaming...
<scott-work> why abogani2?
<abogani2> scott-work: There isn't way to upload an update linux-rt package!!!!
 * abogani2 is playing to ping-pong between Ubuntu Kernel Team, MOTUers, Archive Admins, Ubuntu SRU argghhhh
<rexbron> hey, looks like Ardour 3 is going to be multithreaded :)
<jussi> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2010-06-05
<quadrispro> ScottL_, lv2-c++-tools has entered unstable, the next one will be zyn :)
<falktx> quadrispro: is lv2-c++... in maverick now?
<quadrispro> falktx, it's still not synced
<falktx> but it's on ubuntu?
<falktx> just not in debian yet?
<quadrispro> but it doesn't needed file a sync request, it will be autosynced
<quadrispro> falktx, it just enters unstable, in the next few days it will be auto-sync'd
<falktx> nice
<falktx> good to know
<quadrispro> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-30
<holstein> ailo: o/
<ailo> hey holstein 
<ailo> holstein, I looked through the logs. You mentioned something about a wiki you started?
<holstein> ailo: the timeline one
<holstein> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Oneiric/Timeline
<ailo> holstein, So far we're on schedule ;)
<holstein> lol
<holstein> \o/ yeah!
<ckontros> ScottL or someone... I sent a mail to the list with an attachment so it got held. Can someone push it through?
<ckontros> Thanx
<holstein> xubuntu-devel meeting going on right now
<holstein> why am i defending ardour on the mailing list?
<holstein> maybe im misunderstanding ralph
<astraljava> Yeah, let it go. Totally not worth it. :)
<holstein> astraljava: am i misreading it though?
<astraljava> Who knows, I didn't have the endurance to read all of those through. :)
<holstein> What ever those guys are using, it's not Ardour2 ;).
<holstein> ^ that seems so combatitive to me
<astraljava> I caught that, though.
<astraljava> About where I left it off, too.
<holstein> its like, just use ardour, or dont
<holstein> i dont care, but spreading 'ardour sux' on the ubuntu mailing list
<holstein> seems odd
<holstein> i mean, even if you think ardour sux, thats fine too
<astraljava> He has had some bad experience with Ubuntu (Studio) lately, he's now labelling it all.
<astraljava> Happens all the time.
<holstein> yeah, im going to have to just ignore that guy
<holstein> astraljava: ive been there too
<astraljava> We all have. But some of us have the patience to think things through before posting, is what I'm saying. :)
<holstein> astraljava: hehe
<astraljava> Hell, I was about to tonight, cause it seemed that my sound card had locked up on S/PDIF master clock rate.
<holstein> its a slippery slope for sure
<astraljava> But then I found a notion on the 'net, someone saying he's learnt to solve some pretty low-level issues with alsamixer.
<astraljava> So I gave it one last try.
<holstein> its especially frustrating if its a production box
<astraljava> Surprise, it solved the issue after a little fiddling.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-05-31
<TheMuso> IMO no release has been quite as good as hardy. That was the pinical of studio.
<TheMuso> Mostly due to the fact that we had an RT kernel.
<astraljava> Didn't use hardy that much, so can't really tell.
<holstein> TheMuso: hehe
<holstein> that was awesome
<holstein> 64studio was based on it too
<holstein> all kinds of really nice audio distros based on hardy
<ScottL> hardy was my favorite too and holds a special place for me...but it was my first foray into ubuntu studio
<ScottL> but hopefully oneiric comes in a close second
<ScottL> holstein, good answers on the mailing list
<ScottL> i wonder why exactly (i.e. giving specific, explicit, well-articulated answers) ralf feels that ardour is "professional"
<ScottL> not saying that i agree or disagree, i'm curious of his reasoning
<Kokito> howdy
<holstein> ScottL: i know right?
<holstein> i really wish he would articulate what his concerns are
<holstein> we are 'off list' now though
<holstein> i reached the end of what i feel like i can say constructively
<ScottL> hi Kokito 
<ScottL> holstein, but i thought you articulated your points pretty darn well though :)
<Kokito> hi ScottL & holstein 
<ScottL> but i'm serious, mike, about oneiric
<ScottL> i think it could be a very seriously good release...if we get the -lowlatency kernel in
<holstein> ScottL: w00t
<holstein> im stoked
<ScottL> the changes to the UI will be a bit, well i can't say revolutionary....but they will take ubuntu studio in a bit of a different direction
<holstein> oneiric is going to be great
<holstein> but 12.04 is what im looking foward to
<ScottL> why is that?
<ScottL> i have my suspicions
<holstein> just the LTS and all that
<holstein> XFCE round 2
<holstein> and hopefully the live installer and -lowlatency kernel :)
<ScottL> i mentioned to cory that it would be nice to have a fallback for people who do not like the new UI
<holstein> ScottL: yeah, but fall back to what
<holstein> gnome2 is gone
<ScottL> yes, the live image is what i expected
<holstein> ScottL: you think some fallback unity theme?
<ScottL> re: fall back - cory started with our original layout from gnome2 and built an xfce theme based on it at one point
<holstein> OH
<holstein> yeah, maybe
<ScottL> i would like to perhaps package it as a fall back
<holstein> i could go either way with that
<ScottL> not the default, but something users could use
<holstein> might be nice to just ease over there anyways
<holstein> not change everything all at once
<holstein> its still not drastic though
<ScottL> but there are arguments to do it all at one, "rip the bandaid" approach
<holstein> and it hasnt changed in quite a few releases
<ScottL> *shrug*
<holstein> ScottL: yeah
<holstein> who knows
<holstein> one things for sure
<holstein> some folks are going to hate it, no matter what
<ScottL> lol, yes, i would expect that
<ScottL> i think i'd rather make drastic changes now than either
<ScottL> 1. doing it for a LTS
<ScottL> 2. wait another whole year
<ScottL> getting up in ~6 hours....talk to you later :)
<saidinesh5> morning folks :)
<holstein> yeah
<holstein> its time
<holstein> saidinesh5: hello
<saidinesh5> oh good night ScottL :D
<saidinesh5> i personally think AWN is a really good idea for US
<saidinesh5> hello holstein :)
<saidinesh5> fianlly customized my Ubuntu Studio to my Usual Gnome2 Style : everything replaced with AWN :)
<saidinesh5> so what project do you work on holstein ?
<holstein> saidinesh5: unfortunatly, this is about it
<holstein> i try and help in the support channel
<holstein> and do what i can, thats non technical
<holstein> im a musician
<holstein> saidinesh5: how about you?
<saidinesh5> hehe, thats not unfortunate.... if it werent for folks like you, it would have been a night mare for me to come onto linux 4 years ago :)
<holstein> saidinesh5: :)
<saidinesh5> well i ve just graduated....
<holstein> i wish i could contribute more*
<saidinesh5> more or less a teeny tiny KDE developer....
<holstein> we really need coding contributors
<holstein> saidinesh5: welcome
<saidinesh5> actually welcome back :P
 * saidinesh5 looks around for geanies to grant holstein 's wish
<holstein> saidinesh5: even better
<saidinesh5> :)
<saidinesh5> so what instrument(s) do you play holstein ?
<holstein> well, i play a lot of instruments
<holstein> but im a bassist professionally
<holstein> upright, mostly jazz
 * saidinesh5 is back on ubuntu studio now that he is graduated and has a little bit time on his hands to experiment with things
<saidinesh5> wow
<Kokito> I used ti play bass when I was young, though I sucked
<saidinesh5> thats cool!
<holstein> Kokito: upright?
<Kokito> no, electric
 * saidinesh5 has never seen many instruments in Real Life though...
<holstein> saidinesh5: :/
<saidinesh5> well the shops i goto, usually don't have the whole set of instruments
<saidinesh5> so i havent seen an upright bass in real life though......
<holstein> i saw one when i was a kid
<holstein> then, i didnt really see them much til i was playing it
<saidinesh5> hehe.......so you are a musician by profession holstein?
<holstein> yup
<holstein> saidinesh5: and you've graduated?
<saidinesh5> oh thats so cool ..
<holstein> what do you want to be when you grow up? ;)
<saidinesh5> yups just graduated......
<saidinesh5> well thats the tricky question you see......
<holstein> you dont have to have it all figured out just yet
<saidinesh5> currently the important part on my todo list is to work on a little project that i wanted to do........
<saidinesh5> after that its more or less tossing a coin b/w higher education someplace far far away vs. a Job
<holstein> well, just try and enjoy the summer as much as you can i say :)
<saidinesh5> hehe :)
<Kokito> have a question for the audio experts
<Kokito> I have a bunch of VHS tapes that I want to convert to digital files
<Kokito> what would I need to do this in US?
<Kokito> I have a VHS player
<holstein> hmmm
<holstein> good question
<holstein> i had a little thingy i borrowed from my pop, dazzle USB device
<holstein> i used it to grab something from VHS like that
<Kokito> would a capture card, but not sure if it works in linux
<holstein> it worked fine
<Kokito> in linux?
<holstein> that was under XP though
<Kokito> ah, ok
<holstein> however, the software i used that worked the best was avidmuex
<holstein> this would have been 8 years ago?
<holstein> i bet its come along way, even in linux
<holstein> Kokito: i would try and catch a mythbuntu guy
<holstein> i bet they would know the capture card that would do the job
<Kokito> I see
<Kokito> good advise :)
<holstein> avidmuex was the only thing for me at the time that would keep the audio and video in sync
<holstein> ive been meaning to find that dazzle device and see if it worked in linux*
<saidinesh5> Kokito: just curious why did you aim this question at "audio experts" ?? if it is only the Audio You want to save from it...
<saidinesh5> you could very well use a two sided TRS connector
<Kokito> saidinesh5: oopsie.... I meant to ask the "video" experts :)
<Kokito> it's been a long day :)
<saidinesh5> Ah i see.....
<Kokito_> re
 * saidinesh5 thought re means hello
<astraljava> saidinesh5: Generally it's being used whenever a person leaves the room for a bit, and then re-enters.
<astraljava> saidinesh5: Another one that's fairly common in that situation is wb, short for welcome back.
<saidinesh5> ah i see astraljava ..... re :D
<scott-work> wow, holstein, you are writing some good stuff on the ML!
<holstein> scott-work: i hope so, i feel im a little obsessed
<holstein> im having a hard time letting that kind of thing go though
<holstein> "pro-fools"
<scott-work> i also do not appreciate when people purposefully misspell words to denigrate other things...like M$ or Microshaft, etc
<holstein> and "you are ignorant"
<holstein> its challenging
<scott-work> i agree with you though :)
<holstein> not to mention, we are going back and forth off list now too
<holstein> about that mouse wheel issue he had
<holstein> gotta run... BBL
<scott-work> weeee 
<scott-work> by the way, we will not be publishing an Alpha 1 image this cycle
<scott-work> i made this decision because we are not ready with the XFCE changes
<scott-work> i do expect to publish an Alpha2 image however
<scott-work> ailo: i have two goals on my plate for this week and then I would like to start making progress on documentation, are you still interested in being involved?
<scott-work> (one of my goals is to test the -lowlatency kernel vs. -generic on my other machine)
<astraljava> scott-work: Probably not a bad one. I intend to look into the uninstallable packages this week, so we'll have at least some installation discs for testing.
<holstein> scott-work: who is pushing that kernel in?
<holstein> i'll test that those kernels here too with firewire
<holstein> im sure we can get ailo involved :)
<astraljava> And I'll give it a go with my M-Audio PCI card.
<holstein> astraljava: COOL
<astraljava> I need to add a third disc also, so that I can have at least the couple latest stable releases installed at the same time, plus the devel release.
<scott-work> oh, i should point out that daily images are still being built
<scott-work> but i believe this is a different process that the official QA builds for which emails are sent out
<astraljava> scott-work: Yep, just that there are a couple broken packages.
<scott-work> holstein: the general plan is that abogani will get it into his git repo, i will package it, and persia will push it *
<scott-work> but abogani wants to wait until the 2.6.39 kernel is more stable
<scott-work> * barring any discussion between TheMuso and Andy
<astraljava> scott-work: What about linux moving to 3.0 during this release? How does it affect us?
<scott-work> astraljava: that's a good question, i just assumed it would happen after release but it probably won't
<scott-work> i don't expect any troubles though, Linus has stated that this wasn't like KDE 4.0 or Gnome 3 where there's major breakage
<scott-work> i wonder what kernel version was decided to use at UDS, if it was 2.6.39 then it shouldn't be an issue anyway :P
<scott-work> for those who don't know about linux 3.0:  https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/5/29/204
<scott-work> linus has stated that he thinks we're getting silly with the version numbers and wants to move to 3.0
<scott-work> no major new features, basically just the next release of the kernel you know and love :P
<astraljava> scott-work: Yeah. Just realized I had followed debian discussion relating to kernel version bump. Might not affect us after all.
<scott-work> hartmut is putting some slap down on ralf on the mailing list :P
<scott-work> i like hartmut :)
<scott-work> not because he's refuting ralf's stance, mind you
<astraljava> I see Ralf getting a beating all-around. :) I still fail to see how this all relates to Ubuntu Studio talk, but *shrug* Let the kids play. :)
<holstein> scott-work: i like that plan
<astraljava> From the kernel team meeting minutes: "This also means we'll target One
<astraljava> iric to release with a v3.0 kernel rather than v2.6.40.
<astraljava> "
<astraljava> Damn linefeeds.
<scott-work> oh, good find astraljava, i was looking for an answer in #ubuntu-kernel and not getting an answer
<scott-work> it seemed that persia wanted to push 2.6.39 -lowlatency into the repos even if it wasn't the planned final version for oneiric
<scott-work> i presume that is so we can start testing earlier
<astraljava> My thinking too.
<holstein> we need it
<holstein> and that kernel kicks ass
<holstein> right down the middle, in a good way
<holstein> scott-work: remind me again what you used for your green screen vids
<holstein> kden?
<scott-work> holstein: hahaha, of course not!  i used Blender :)
<holstein> great
<holstein> sounds like a PITA
<scott-work> but i also have had very acceptable expereiences with openshot
<scott-work> and [lsd] was using kdenlive
<holstein> yeah, ive been meaning to look at openshot
<scott-work> i think openshot is probably the best choice for someone looking to do things quickly
<holstein> im not sure what i want
<scott-work> a good entry level editor (read: easy to use) with pretty extensive features
<holstein> i got one of those flipHD cams, and im just messing around
<scott-work> i had really thought about doing that too!
<scott-work> although i might just steal my kids ipod to shoot some video :P
<holstein> hehe
<scott-work> it's better than our older hand held camcorder i think
<ailo> ScottL, Documentation - yes. I'm a little occupied these few days ahead. I believe I have more time from Sunday and forwards.
<ckontros> ScottL: You wanna set up Sunday to get the seeds in order? We can make the changes but not push them. I also *gotta* get our new studio-settings package done.
<ckontros> PM if needed.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-01
 * abogani waves all
<abogani> The new -lowlatency kernel is ready for test.
<abogani> ScottL: ^
<astraljava> abogani: Excellent news! I'll give it a go later today. :)
<scott-work> astraljava: did you say that you were going to look into the cdrdao build failure?
<astraljava> scott-work: Yeah, I will be, but might take until tomorrow, though.
<scott-work> astraljava: no problem :)
<astraljava> scott-work: Do you have an idea regarding us-meta?
<scott-work> usually when i see uninstallable binaries i wait a few days and if no one else fixes it then i start to get worried and look into it ;)
<scott-work> astraljava: the -meta is failing to build to because cdrdao is part of the -meta
<scott-work> fix cdrdao and the -meta should build
<astraljava> scott-work: Right. Yeah, on cdrdao changelog, seb128 has this to say: debian/control: build without gcdmaster it's not really maintained and it depends on deprecated gnome libraries
<astraljava> But that was already last Friday, so I can't understand the failing build then.
<astraljava> Ahh... I get it.
<scott-work> you might just email him and tell him that it appears that his change is borking the build and see if he takes care of it
<astraljava> cdrdao 1:1.2.3-0.1ubuntu1 produces uninstallable binaries, but there is now cdrdao (1:1.2.3-0.1ubuntu2) oneiric; urgency=low, for which the changelog entry is actually.
<astraljava> Why are we building against the older one, then?
<persia> Just bad timing probably.  The image builds build against what is available at ftp.internal when they build, which can be a bit behind the latest uploads.
<astraljava> persia: Gotcha. So, wait a few more days, then.
<persia> That's not what I'd do :)
<astraljava> Oh?
<persia> I'd recommend attempting an install in a chroot.
<persia> `apt-get install ubuntustudio-desktop^` should pull the current task, and try to install it.
<persia> If that works, the next image build *should* work (unless something else changes).  If that doesn't work, then it's worth investigating why.
<persia> If something can't be installed, check LP to see if there is a more recent upload (usually this would fix it).
<astraljava> persia: Okay, I'll do that tomorrow then. Thanks!
<persia> Or maybe it's wedged by some other thing which is being fixed.
<persia> And of course, if there are no pending uploads, then it's worth trying to just fix it (many times this is a rebuild or similar).
<persia> Since packages are only rebuilt when they are noticed to have issues, it's not uncommon that we're running something built ages ago (some packages haven't been updated since 5.04, but they work, so nobody cares)
<scott-work> LOL
<persia> scott-work: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/multidistrotools/unchanged/unchanged_since_warty
<astraljava> Hehe. :)
<scott-work> wow
<scott-work> hi Kokito , good morning :)
<scott-work> early for you isn't?
<Kokito> morning scott-work 
<Kokito> yeah, lt of things in my head lately wake me up too early :)
<scott-work> this weekend should be our regularly scheduled contributor meeting
<scott-work> Kokito: will you be available for the meeting...it should be on Sunday morning, not sure of the time since ailo and holstein wanted to change it
<ailo> scott-work, I think it would be good to change the time, so that everyone has the chance to participate
<scott-work> ailo: i completely agree, just can't remember what time you and holstein decided ;)
<ailo> I believe it was 17.00 UTC
<ailo> Yeah, it was 17.00. I double checked with astraljava, who is the person that will have the latest time
<ailo> He had no problem with it
<scott-work> i'll see about updating the meeting wiki page today then for that
<ailo> And Kokito should have the earliest time
<Kokito> scott-work: & ailo I have not planned my weekend yet, but if I can I will attend the meeting
<scott-work> Kokito: if not, can you send me an update for the website update and i'll report it for the meeting
<scott-work> Kokito: is there anything still holding you up?
<Kokito> scott-work: yes, lack of time :)
<scott-work> Kokito: hahaha, i'm not sure i can help with that one :)
<Kokito> I know :)
<scott-work> listening to linux outlaws i heard that Fit and the Conniptions records their music with ubuntu studio
<scott-work> http://music.conniptions.org/
<scott-work> maybe we should include something on the new website to showcase artists that use ubuntu studio
<scott-work> hi falktx 
<falktx> hey scott-work
 * scott-work hasn't actually listened to the Fit and the Conniptions music
<scott-work> listening to F&C, it's relatively well produced :)
<scott-work> hi quadrispro 
<scott-work> i included you on the mudita24 RFP (or RPF) email
<quadrispro> yep, I got it
<quadrispro> hi all
<scott-work> quadrispro: okay :)
<falktx> hey quadrispro
<scott-work> quadrispro: i see you have been busy with the ladish transition
<quadrispro> I need to allocate some time for it as I'm quit busy with the lash->ladish transition
<quadrispro> yep :)
<quadrispro> I've been writing the report to request the removal of lash from Debian's archive
<quadrispro> just few packages still need to be fixed
<quadrispro> ehy falktx 
<falktx> quadrispro: quick question - is debian now fully deprecating lash in favour of ladish+session?
<quadrispro> falktx, yep, it is
<falktx> cool
<quadrispro> keeping an obsolete software in the archive is nonsense anyway, plus the alternative is on the way
<falktx> quadrispro: I want to backport your changes to my PPAs, so many thanks for your hard work
<quadrispro> ;)
<scott-work> quadrispro: i was under the impression that ladish depended on lash, it would appear that i was wrong then ;)
<scott-work> it will be interesting to see how things split between jack-session and ladish
 * falktx believes that as soon as he make some ladish tutorial videos, everyone will want to go the ladish way...
<scott-work> i think i have a good feel for what ladish is offering but i haven't found a good resource to understand what jack-session is intending to offer
<scott-work> falktx: that would be a good thing to do...i'll even offer to help with editing the video if you record it
<quadrispro> yes, scott, you aren't right :) ladish is just the replacement of lash
<scott-work> falktx:  don't forget, you make a script for building live images of ubuntu studio and i'll pay a bounty ;)
<falktx> scott-work: yes, I didn't forgot that
<scott-work> oh good :)
<falktx> as soon as I port the old plugins from the old PPA and the debian-multimedia ladish stuff, I'll start to make ISOs
<quadrispro> i have to go, cya!
<holstein> ailo: 17:00 utc 
 * holstein double checking
<holstein> im going to hit the lists with a reminder
<ailo> holstein, Yep
<holstein> sunday right?
<ailo> Sunday as far as I am aware
<holstein> cool
<holstein> this is that converter that scott-work suggested right?
<holstein> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html
<scott-work> this is the converter that i prefer:  http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedform.html?year=2011&month=6&day=1&hour=0&min=0&sec=0&p1=104
<scott-work> because it shows many major cities (countries) that most can find that is close to their own city
<holstein> check this out...
<holstein> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=ubuntustudio+meeting&iso=20110605T17
<holstein> ^ that looks correct?
<scott-work> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Ubuntu+Studio+Contributor+Meeting&iso=20110605T17http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Ubuntu+Studio+Contributor+Meeting&iso=20110605T17
<scott-work> oh, sorry, didn't see you had typed, holstein 
<scott-work> why is my link sooooo much longer than yours, hmmmm?
<holstein> i think its just doubled up
<scott-work> oh, because mine is WRONG!  LOL
<holstein> and the name is longer
<scott-work> ah, right, deleted the last half and it works
<scott-work> holstein: i would like to mention in all future correspondence that we include "ccontributor" to encourage people to help
<holstein> scott-work: i like it
<scott-work> or hopefully prevent biasing people to say, "well, crap, i can't code, i'm not a developer, i shoudlnt' be in that meeting"
<holstein> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Ubuntu+Studio+Contributor+Meeting&iso=20110605T17
<holstein> ^ thats the link i'll use
<holstein> scott-work: is there an itenerary?
<scott-work> not yet
<holstein> i think as things get closer, we need to get more 'buisness' about it
<scott-work> i will throw together something during lunch today
<holstein> did you get a chance to see charlie-tca run that xubuntu-devel meeting?
<scott-work> i did
<holstein> quite effecient :)
<scott-work> i think if we held it in #ubuntu-meeting then we could use that bot
<holstein> Daviey said he'd help us get a bot in here
<holstein> scott-work: i could go either way really
<Daviey> holstein: did i?
<holstein> Daviey: right?
<scott-work> it is already in #ubuntu-meeting, i thought it was be easiest to do that
<holstein> maybe you said you'd point me in the right direction
<holstein> Daviey: im not saying you havent done what you said you'd do, i havent followed up
<holstein> Daviey: i was asking because in #ubuntu-us-nc, mootbot-uk really made things easier
<holstein> eitherway, the meeting is in here on sunday, so im going to get that annoucement out
<Daviey> holstein: I can add mootbot-uk here.
<Daviey> Personally, i wonder if having the meeting in #ubuntu-meeting is better for studio...
<Daviey> more exposure. :)
<holstein> Daviey: yeah, i agree with both you and scott-work about that
<holstein> scott-work: i havnet fired off this email, do you want to see it #ubuntu-meeting is available?
<holstein> *i mean, i'll see if its availalbe if you want to try and move it there by this sunday
<Daviey> posting a reminder /here/ at meeting start time, surely means nobody will be lost.
<scott-work> holstein: yes, i would try to see if #ubuntu-meeting is available, even log it into the calendar if possible, then email
<holstein> scott-work: cool, i'll hold off then, and ping you when i sort it out
<holstein> Daviey scott-work , do you have to be registered to have voice in -meeting?
<holstein> flags are +Ccz looks like
<holstein> When +z is set, the effects of +b, +q, and +m are relaxed. For each message, if that message would normally be blocked by one of these modes, it is instead sent to all the users who are currently set +o (channel operator). This is intended for use in moderated debates.
<holstein> that looks open then right?
<Daviey> it is open, anyone can talk
<holstein> i plan on linking a freenode webchat link in the email
<scott-work> holstein: you might not send the email until we have a wiki page to link with an agenda
<holstein> i'll explain what that channel is for though
<holstein> *dont just join and start heckling ;)
<holstein> scott-work: is there an ongoing wiki page?
<holstein> i'll start an agenda that looks like this
<holstein> open discussion
<holstein> discussion timeline
<holstein> discuss timeline*
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings
<scott-work> that's the landing page for them, i'll make a specific one later today unless you want to crack it out now
<holstein> ok, that gets me started i think
<holstein> scott-work: if i get stuck, i ping for help
<scott-work> sure :)
<holstein> scott-work: heres what i started https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011June5
<holstein> w00t, i got it added to the fridge for #ubuntu-meeting
<holstein> *im pretty sure at least
<scott-work> holstein: the fridge does show the meeting but it's labeling it at 5:00 pm GMT apparently, is this correct
 * scott-work is pretty ignorant about GMT
<charlie-tca> Studio installed for alpha1, if nothing is marked in Software Selection
<scott-work> hi charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Hi
<scott-work> we didn't actually expect an alpha1 image to be published, i thought i had that understanding with skaet
<charlie-tca> Got a new guy testing it, just to see if it will install
<charlie-tca> no problem
<charlie-tca> gives him good practice
<holstein> charlie-tca: w0w, thanks :)
<scott-work> we know that the audio-base (or similar, forget the name) seed has uninstallable seeds so it probably craps out :/
<charlie-tca> and it helps to be able to say you did publish alpha1, even if it is broken
<holstein> scott-work: alright, i think i got everything sorted, im firing off this email
<holstein> 17:00 UTC = 5pm GMT right?
<scott-work> holstein: is the time on the fridge correct?
<holstein> or am i making that up
<scott-work> i don't know :/
<holstein> well, i'll double check that...
<scott-work> i thought UTC and GMT were the same, just renaming it
<charlie-tca> holstein: right, I believe
<holstein> yeah, UTC and GMT are the same
<charlie-tca> let me get through this meeting and give you a world time url
<holstein> so, 17:00 and 5p are the same
<scott-work> good :)
<holstein> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Ubuntu+Studio+Contributor+Meeting&iso=20110605T17&sort=0 should be it
<scott-work> charlie-tca: this is the converter we were using:  http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Ubuntu+Studio+Contributor+Meeting&iso=20110605T17
<scott-work> lol
<charlie-tca> That works. 
<holstein> OK, im firing it off
<scott-work> sounds good :)
<charlie-tca> to calculate real time, just subtract 12 from the numbers bigger than 12:00
<charlie-tca> and add a pm, of course
<holstein> scott-work: im sending it to both lists
<scott-work> i'm ex USMC, i'm used to the military time ;)
<holstein> the -dev and -user
<scott-work> holstein: absolutely :)
<holstein> OK
<charlie-tca> scott-work: me too
<scott-work> oh wow, that's cool, how long ago?
 * charlie-tca has all his computer clocks on 24 hour time
<scott-work> i've been out for almost fifteen years now
<charlie-tca> retired in 1992 after 20
<scott-work> oh wow, i didn't do that
<scott-work> i got out after two years and two broken bones in my left foot
<scott-work> which kinda pissed me off
<charlie-tca> ouch
<charlie-tca> That would
<scott-work> i was on track to make sargeant in just over two years
<scott-work> shit, wrong
<charlie-tca> heh
<scott-work> lcpl in 2, i would have made sergeant in four 
<charlie-tca> spellings were always a bear
<charlie-tca> ah, yes
<charlie-tca> Those were the days
<scott-work> i got a promotion out of school for leadership which put me ahead
<scott-work> i was mid/late twenties and everyone else was 18 :P
<scott-work> charlie-tca: what did you do?
<charlie-tca> bomb loader in the Air Force
<scott-work> i was an Electrical Equipment Repair Specialist (EERS)
<scott-work> oh, wow, that's a little interesting ;)
<scott-work> i was trained to work on the electrical generating part of our generators but i usually ended up in the field with them or back in barracks busting rust, painting, changing filter
<charlie-tca> We got involved in everything when we had to troubleshoot
<scott-work> ya, good times, sometimes i really miss that because i never get to throw grenades or shoot large caliber weapons anymore
<scott-work> ;)
<charlie-tca> I never got to, unless you count watching the gun fire on an airplane
<scott-work> i saw the range every year (although they were just starting to change it so if you qualified expert you would skip ever other year) but more inportantly...
<scott-work> i went out LOADS of times with grunt to give them electricity and they did cool shit
<scott-work> i got to shoot craps loads with them and throw grenades
<scott-work> i could have hidden somewhere and avoid all of it by hanging by the generator but that's not me, you know ;)
<scott-work> the funnest time i think was when i spent three months in south korea TAD'd with a comm unit
<scott-work> they're were TOW guys there too, making plywood targets of Kim Il Jong and other guys, pretty hilarious and fun
<charlie-tca> I bet it was
<holstein> scott-work: did you get hooked up with skaet ?
<holstein> she seems to me somewhat loose right now after a meeting *
<scott-work> yes, she said she got chris jones to look at it this week
<holstein> scott-work: OK :)
<scott-work> it looks like it might only be me getting rights though
<scott-work> i was hoping to have a similar situation like charlie-tca 
<holstein> scott-work: thats good enough right?
<scott-work> where i can grant rights as well
<astraljava> scott-work: Missed it the last time? No worries, here it is again: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_UTC_and_GMT_time
<scott-work> charlie-tca: is Guilliem the person you mentioned earlier who was testing the ubuntustudio image?
<scott-work> hi hans, you're hans of jackpanel fame, are you not?
<scott-work> oops, hansfbaier ^^^
<hansfbaier> Yes
<hansfbaier> Well, not much time for jackpanel development recently
<hansfbaier> Still would need significant work, but my priorities shifted considerably since then
<hansfbaier> new baby
<scott-work> ooh, yes indeed!  i have three myself, well, not babies anymore though :)
<hansfbaier> My third as well
<hansfbaier> Most of my spare time is eaten by investing right now
<hansfbaier> Being totally immersed in Open Source Development 2009 was fun, but it cost me a years worth of salary, because
<hansfbaier> I totally neglected my investments
<hansfbaier> :(
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-02
<Kokito> howdy
<Kokito> ScottL: in case you are there, if I cannot attend the IRC meeting on Sunday, I will send you an email with a status update
<graciasfidel> hi here
<astraljava> o/
<ScottL> hi graciasfidel 
<scott-work> morning everyone :)
<scott-work> holstein: i have topics for the meeting agenda, i'll get it on the wiki today
<scott-work> yesterday was a bit hectic at work and i actually fleshed out the agenda during a meeting
<scott-work> looks like jean-baptiste is proposing someone change the gcdmaster dependency on cdrdao should be bumped to 1:1.2.3-0.1ubuntu2
<scott-work> anyone interested?
<scott-work> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cdrdao/+bug/791467
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 791467 in cdrdao (Ubuntu Oneiric) "bump gcdmaster dependency on cdrdao to 1:1.2.3-0.1ubuntu2" [Medium,Triaged]
 * holstein looking
<holstein> scott-work: personally, i'll be stoked when we have a live installer and no more tasksel
<holstein> thats been broken for me for a long time
<scott-work> holstein: this isn't a tasksel issue though
<holstein> even when it wasnt officially broken*
<scott-work> but i agree it will be nice to have a live installer
<holstein> so, whats the proposal?
<scott-work> this particular item is that a package isn't building properly and therefore can't be installed or included in our -meta package
<holstein> i think its nice to have gcdmaster in the repos*
<holstein> i dont think its something that needs to be default though
<holstein> scott-work: thats something we'll have to work on *if* we go with a live installer
<holstein> a nice software base
<scott-work> holstein: i believe we would need to download the source, look in the /debian/control file, adjust the dependencies for gcdmaster, make a patch for it, then attach the patch to the bug report
<holstein> i REALLY like the workflow idea
<holstein> for metapackages and whatever else
<holstein> scott-work: i mean, is thats something i can handle?
<holstein> scott-work: i would like to set up a teamviewer box or something share-able
<holstein> maybe you or someone could help me get going on some of this more advanced stuff that i just cant quite get my mind around
<scott-work> i'm not sure what you mean by "teamviewer box"
<scott-work> you mean etherpad?
<holstein> scott-work: teamviewer is an easy VNC type thing
<holstein> nah, that wont do for me
<holstein> i need to see it done
<holstein> i cant read a doc
<holstein> i have too many holes in my knowlege base
<scott-work> oh, you need to watch it happen in real-time
<holstein> one doc leads me to another, then i get busy/frustrated
<scott-work> i'm on a windows machine currently so i can't even download a .tar.gz file at this point and see the source :/
<scott-work> i know i could download something on windows to do it, but this is a work machine and i would rather not
<holstein> i remember getting the source to rakarrack for backporting
<holstein> but, i got stuck a couple times
<holstein> and, tbh, im not even far enough along to know what to ask
<holstein> even reading that very well laid out wiki you made
<holstein> its like giving the VCR manual to my granny ;)
<holstein> anyways, i wont be able to mess with it til later
<holstein> im busy for another 5 hours or so
<holstein> scott-work: should i comment in that bug that somebody is going to do something?
<holstein> i subscribed
<scott-work> i'll look at it tonight and then see what's going on unless maybe astraljava wants a to look at it since he expressed interested previously
<scott-work> holstein: after looking at the gcdmaster/cdrdao issue i think i have a better understanding on it
<scott-work> if you want we could work this together tonight/tomorrow/this weekend, where we work this in parallel and compare at each step
<scott-work> i do believe this is a very simple fix where we will be correcting something very, very simple
<scott-work> but this can provide you with extremely good experience with a few staple tasks for packaging
<scott-work> this is really Open Week material where they show case a simple, topical change which is easy to digest and helps introduce new people to the tools
<scott-work> holstein: if you are interested, i'll explain more about what i believe is the issue and provide a summary explanation of what is required
<scott-work> holstein: i updated the agenda and stole some formatting from the xubuntu-devel group
<scott-work> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2011June5
 * scott-work is impressed at the organization of the xubuntu team and hopes to model them more
<charlie-tca> thank you
<scott-work> charlie-tca: you are welcome :)
<holstein> scott-work: yeah, im very interested
<holstein> if i can see you in action of some of this stuff, that might help
<scott-work> holstein: do you want a brief explanation of what needs to be changed and why at this time?  or should we wait until later?
<ailo> Aha, alpha is released :P
<scott-work> ailo: it was but it shouldn't have been
<scott-work> i had talked with skaet who works with the -release team and i thought we had an understanding that it wouldn't be published :9
<scott-work> :(
<scott-work> we knew that gcdmaster/cdrdao were having troubles and also we didn't have the xfce packages ready
<scott-work>  
<scott-work> ailo: one thing we will need to do pretty soon regarding the documentation is decide on the format we want and priorities
<scott-work> by format, i meant the outline version of what we wanted
<holstein> scott-work: i say, dont wait on me
<holstein> i dont want to hold anything up
<holstein> anything you feel like sharing though, even if you just want to screen capture and email it to me
<holstein> id just weed through it, and learn something
<scott-work> holstein: here's the poop...
<scott-work> sorry, someone came to my desk for answers
<scott-work> okay, holstein , there is a source package called 'cdrdaco':  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cdrdao
<scott-work> when you clikc the link you will see in the upper left...
<scott-work> cdrdao: records CDs in Disk-At-Once (DAO) mode gcdmaster: GNOME GUI for cdrdao
<scott-work> that's actually two lines
<scott-work> these are the biniaries that are built from the source package
<scott-work> so the cdrdao source package builds the cdrdao binary and the gcdmaster binary
<holstein> OK
<holstein> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cdrdao
<holstein> ^ source ?
<scott-work> aye
<scott-work> i don't think launchpad stores any binaries, not in the sense that we are discussing
<scott-work> the trouble isn't that one package or the other will not build, they do!
<holstein> right
<scott-work> it's that when you try to install gcdmaster it can't
<holstein> OK
<scott-work> that's why it's called an "uninstallable binary"
<scott-work> and in this case it is a dependency problem
<holstein> becuase of some dep thats changed?
<scott-work> aye
<holstein> seems easy enough
<holstein> *in theory
<scott-work> i'm guessing that the gcdmaster depends on a previous version of cdrdao
<scott-work> and it that version is stated in the dependencies
 * scott-work can't check because he's not on a ubuntu machine :(
<scott-work> holstein: you got two minutes to check this?
<scott-work> if so i would recommend that you 'apt-get install build-essential quilt cdbs dpatch devscripts' first
<holstein> scott-work: lemme see what i come up with
<scott-work> it might be that only one of those packages would be enough to do what we need but i'm not sure it would be
<scott-work> holstein: oh, that's not doing anything with the cdrdao package yet, that's just getting some tools we need in order to do something with the package
<scott-work> launchpad works in a slightly different way then most people expect, they expect a whole package of source code all in a single directory or bundle, this isn't the case
<scott-work> typically, the upstream code is kept original...also referred to as pristine a lot,
<scott-work> it is typically in the form of a tarball or such
<scott-work> .tar.gz or whatever
<scott-work> all the other stuff, like the /debian directory or any patches we (ubuntu) apply is external to this
<scott-work> look under the Downloads section:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cdrdao/1:1.2.3-0.1ubuntu2
<scott-work> there is an origin.tar.bz2 - this is the upstream pristine code
<scott-work> there is a debian.tar.gz - these are the changes (additions/deletions/any changes) that we (debian and/or ubuntu) have applied against the original code
<scott-work> and a .dsc file - this is a description file that primarily used for building the package
<scott-work> the .dsc file will also contain the dependencies for building the package - but these are not the dependencies we are worried about
<scott-work> the package builds fine, it just can not satisfy an install dependency
<scott-work> you with me so far?
<scott-work> are you still installing the tools?
<holstein> OK, thats finished
<scott-work> have you read what i've been typing?  any questions on that before we move on?
<holstein> im reading that now
<holstein> but, go on, and im catching up...
<scott-work> just to clarify expicitly, there are two dependencies for a package; one for building it and another for running it
<scott-work> for example; ardour needs a shit load of libraries to build, but not jackd
<scott-work> but ardour needs jackd to run, but not those libraries
<scott-work> that's a rough (and slightly inaccurate) example but it makes the point
<scott-work> the dependencies needed to build are in the *.dsc file and those for running are in the /debian/control file
<scott-work> are you ready to start typing to get the source?
<scott-work> holstein: ^^^
<holstein> i think so
<scott-work> okay, we need a terminal
<scott-work> and you will need to make a nice directory somewhere where you don't mind numerous files or folder populating
<scott-work> i tend to mkdir /build under my home directory and then add another directory for whatever package i'm working on
<scott-work> so in this case i would mkdir build
<scott-work> cd build
<scott-work> mkdir cdrdao
<scott-work> cd mkdir cdrdao
<holstein> OK
<scott-work> now, you should be at somethinglike mike@ubuntu:~/build/cdrdao$
<scott-work> okay, so type 'apt-get source cdrdao'
<scott-work> you don't need sudo because you are only getting the source
<scott-work> and by the way, we are getting the source for whatever version you are currently running
 * scott-work thinks this will be okay
<holstein> scott-work: OH, im on lucid too
<scott-work> the reason we got all the tools is so we can actually see what the hell is going on with the package
<scott-work> holstein: it's probably okay, i don't think these packages have been udpated in a while, but i'll check it later at home
<holstein> cool
<scott-work> there is probably a nfity and succinct way to pull a specific version's source, but i don't know it off the top of my head
<holstein> Can't check signature: public key not found
<scott-work> that's fine
<holstein> other than that, looks good
<scott-work> okay, the tools took the two tarballs and make a nice looking directory with it
<scott-work> and even applied whatever patches were included as well
<scott-work> so, now we will look for the /debian/control file and see what it says
<scott-work> i use nautilus for this part usually
<scott-work> navigate under cdrdao then cdrdao_1.2.3 (or whatever)
<scott-work> then look for /debian
<scott-work> then look for the 'control' file under the /debian directory
<holstein> http://paste.ubuntu.com/617082/
<holstein> that look right?
<scott-work> aye, that's it
<scott-work> the first part is like a header that talks a bit about the over all package
<scott-work> then there are different sectiosn for each of the binaries that will be built
<scott-work> gcdmaster is on the bottom, look for Dependencies:
<holstein> yup
<holstein> Depends: ${misc:Depends}, ${shlibs:Depends}, cdrdao (= ${binary:Version}
<scott-work> er. Depends
<scott-work> okay it's using some magic to check for the version
<scott-work> i'm not sure i can adequately put this in layman's terms, which shows my ignorance or such a base understanding of it
<scott-work> but i think the mechanism is to ensure that gcdmaster always tries to use cdrdao of the same versioning
<scott-work> you wouldn't want to try to use gcdmaster that is using an earlier version of cdrdao
<scott-work> in this case, i think persia is correct in that there is nothing to fix and something needs to drop into the repos
<holstein> i was meaning to get proactive with GCDmaster
<holstein> its been borked for a while
<scott-work> you did :)
<holstein> i was trying to use it recently,k and had to use it as root
<scott-work> you were proactive, you have determined that there is not a problem with the package
<holstein> scott-work: cool :)
<holstein> thats a start
<scott-work> however, it appears that there may still be a problem elsewhere
<scott-work> i'll see about asking persia or TheMuso about what steps we should take next
<scott-work> it might be as simple as waiting a few more days for things to move out of the queue and into the repos
<scott-work> holstein: running gcdmaster as root is a problem that probably should have a bug filed against it (if there isn't one already)
<holstein> scott-work: there is one, and i think i joined it?
<holstein> i felt like i needed to test more
<holstein> AND< make sure i wasnt using something from falktx
<scott-work> holstein: it is entirely possible that there is a problem with the upstream code and nothing that ubuntu/debian did
<scott-work> this might be why there is a new version ;)
<scott-work> oh, the changelog says it's because it relied on a deprecated gnome library :/
<holstein> scott-work: i thought it was likely that its old code
<holstein> being passed along
<holstein> and passed by :/
<holstein> like i said, thats some of the fat that could get trimmed
<holstein> its really specifec
<holstein> specific*
<holstein> h...
<holstein> i mean, most pro's probably just use brasero
<holstein> i had some fancy fading i wanted to do, blend a few tracks or something,and i wanted GCDmaser
<holstein> and it didnt work
<scott-work> i did notice that 1.2.2 was in lucid but 1.2.3 was in maverick
<scott-work> if you haven't used it in something other than lucid the problem might already be fixed
<holstein> scott-work: i havetn
<holstein> havent*
<holstein> and i wanted to talk to falk about it, see if he had a fix
<scott-work> brasero is okay, but it will not make a blue book master or whatever it's called
<scott-work> red book master
<holstein> yeah, i rarely want to burn a CD anyways
 * scott-work has had a long day and i'm slightly brain dead at the momment
<holstein> hehe
<holstein> i think its orange?
<holstein> some color... i know what you mean :)
<scott-work> our parent company purchased our biggest competitor and now we are working on integrating the two companies
<scott-work> while we are doing production work as well
<scott-work> it's all very heady at the moment
<holstein> good times
<holstein> double the work, half the pay :/
<scott-work> ah, i like being involved in all the stuff, it's good stuff
<scott-work> just gets a little overwhelming sometimes
 * scott-work is going home however 
<astraljava> ScottL: I was out almost all day, so didn't have time for cdrdao issue. Will look at it tomorrow, I shouldn't have any important matters then.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-03
<astraljava> Well, in oneiric, there doesn't seem to be a task called ubuntustudio-desktop.
<scott-work> hmmm, where is alessio (abogani)?  he hasn't been on for a few days
<scott-work> i wanted to talk to him about his new kernel :(
<scott-work> astraljava: was there a task 'ubuntustudio-desktop' in natty?
<astraljava> scott-work: Yes, it can be found in /usr/share/tasksel/ubuntu-tasks.desc
<astraljava> hrmpf
<scott-work> hmmm, here is the code for it in launchpad:  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.oneiric/view/head:/desktop
<astraljava> tasksel isn't installed in a default chroot
<astraljava> hrmpf again, now even after installing tasksel, and seeing it in ubuntu-tasks.desc, it still can't find it
<astraljava> works for ubuntu-desktop^, though
<scott-work> cjwatson has a directory that shows all the tasks but i cannot remember it's link
<scott-work> if we could determine that it wasn't in his list (which is what goes into the images i believe) then we might determine he needs to update his list
<scott-work> however, i wonder if this is due to the gnome2 -> unity/gnome3, gtk2 -> gtk3, or gdm -> lightdm transitions?
<astraljava> Okay. Well I asked on #ubuntu+1, let's see if someone has an idea.
<astraljava> Ha! It doesn't work in natty either.
<scott-work> this is crazy, i greatly underestimated the extent of changes we will need for gnome2 -> xfce :/
<scott-work> looking at the desktop seed i make uneducated determinations that many, many packages will need to be replaced
<scott-work> today/this weekend i really need to talk to the xubuntu guys and then hopefully look at their seeds to compare ours vs. theirs
<astraljava> scott-work: I concur. Which is why we absolutely need to discuss this in the meeting.
<scott-work> i've been relying on cory to handle this as i thought he really understood it better than i
<scott-work> however, given the scope of the change, it probably would behoove all if at least one other person were to assist
<astraljava> scott-work: I will try to assist in this as best I can.
<scott-work> astraljava: that would be awesome!  thank you :)
<astraljava> scott-work: First I need to understand why this tasking doesn't work for us at all.
<scott-work> astraljava: it might need to work since it is already included by default for an installation
<scott-work> we don't won't the user to be given a choice whether to install or not install the -dekstop task
<scott-work> by the way, astraljava, is there a desktop-common task?
<scott-work> nevermind, i think it should be ubuntustudio-desktop
<scott-work> in situations like this i find that persia is extremely helpful and knowleable ;)
<astraljava> scott-work: Yes I understand that, however I fail to see why ubuntustudio-desktop task cannot be found from the same place where ubuntu-desktop can, and also is installable.
<astraljava> scott-work: apt-get plain doesn't recognize the task at all.
 * scott-work sighs and is going into another meeting in an increasing number of meetings lately
<astraljava> scott-work: Hang in there! :)
 * ckontros runs through the channel naked.
 * charlie-tca covers eyes
<ckontros> charlie-tca: So do you throughly understand you xubuntu-settings package? The studio-settings package is a bit easier as it's mostly setting gconf keys. xubuntu-settings is more tricky.
<charlie-tca> Oh, lordy no
<charlie-tca> I don't understand a lot of the stuff that happens. 
<charlie-tca> I just know who to ask, I think.
<ckontros> charlie-tca: So you're more a coordinator for the project then?
<charlie-tca> yes. I just try to keep everything coordinated and moving in a direction most helpful to the project
 * charlie-tca is not a developer
<holstein> charlie-tca: thats refreshing to hear, since you get a lot done as a non-developer
<ckontros> Gotcha. That's useful also. Herding cats and all. :P
<charlie-tca> Yeah, that's it
<charlie-tca> I seem to be one of those volunteers that knows very little about coding and packaging, but has learned a few things here and there.
<ckontros> Pretty much how I started. But sometimes necessity takes over and you gotta learn how to hack a bit.
<ckontros> charlie-tca: So who in your camp would be best and willing to review my converting the xubuntu-settings package for Studio use?
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit is the best dev we got, micahg is learning fast, though
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit can be hard to nail down sometimes, but if he will do it, he knows the most.
<ckontros> charlie-tca: Ok. I think I've talked to mr_pouit a bit actually. Maybe through #ubuntu-artwork.
<charlie-tca> Anything is possilbe. I asked him to help you out
<ckontros> Ok. Time for food. scott-work. We still on to hack on Sunday?
<ckontros> charlie-tca: I don't need it this now. Maybe after Sunday after Scott and I have gone through the pkg a bit then mr_pouit can check our work. :)
<ckontros> bbs
<charlie-tca> That's fine
<scott-work> ckontros: i'm good for sunday, we have a team meeting as well that day
<ckontros> scott-work: What times good for you?
<scott-work> i think it should be most of the day, ckontros 
<scott-work> i *might* have to take the kids to the state park on sunday, however
<ckontros> scott-work: Oh sure sure. Start time is what Im after.
<scott-work> earlier in the morning would be better then
<scott-work> i could do it around 6:00 or 7:00 am CST
<ckontros> 8 am our time is the earliest start I can do.
<scott-work> ckontros: you are EST, right?  that would put it at 7am for me
<ckontros> scott-work: I thought you were in Jersey? Why did I think that? :)
<scott-work> ckontros: do you feel like you have a good feel for what needs to be done?  i was looking at the xubuntu desktop seeds as well and there are many things to change in there as well
<scott-work> ckontros: no, i'm actually in texas
<ckontros> scott-work: Did you move? I'm nuts I guess. :P
<scott-work> ckontros: the only time i haven't lived in texas was when i was in the marine corps
<scott-work> and then i lived in various places around the world
<ckontros> scott-work: Im nuts then. :) Ok. So what I usually do is look @ their -desktop package and the depends. Remove the stuff we know we dont want. Research the stuff we're unsure of and add the stuff we do know. :)
<scott-work> ckontros: sounds like a good plan then
<ckontros> scott-work: Its one of the things I wanna try to tackle on Sun. Though, our new -settings pkg has to hit before we push the new seed changes.
<scott-work> right
<scott-work> ckontros:  if you are in a position to talk about the seeds today, we could do it in about 30 mins
 * scott-work can leave work for the day at this point
<ckontros> scott-work: Talk yeah. Im not in a position to start hacking. :)
<scott-work> ckontros: i'd say let's wait then until we are completely ready then
<ckontros> sure sure. Really, I'm off today and having a bit of a Shaw Bros. movie marathon. :P Just not in the right mindset atm.
<ckontros> Hi-def version of "The Five Venoms" FTW. \m/
 * scott-work is going home and dorking around abit before picking up the kids
<holstein> ScottL: do we have admin rights to the mailing list?
<holstein> steve miers is either spamming, or has been hacked it seems
<astraljava> holstein: Scott and Jussi have admin rights.
<ScottL> holstein, which account is there spamming?  i
<ScottL> i'm not seeing any at the moment
<ScottL> ah, they're all going to my spam box
<ScottL> right
<holstein> ScottL: probably not a big deal, but something that should be addressed if possible
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-06-05
<ckontros> ScottL: *Totally* got pulled into family stuff. I wont be free for another hour. Sorry. If you like, can you get a list of our depends, as well as Xubuntu's so we can compare 'em? Maybe have 'em both ready in a pastebin?
<scott-upstairs> i can, but i only know to get them from the seeds files, is that the best place?
<ckontros> Also, have ready a cmd that *should* allow me to upload to our main BZR branch for -settings.
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: Damn. There's a cmd to list depends. One of the guys know or its online. I forget now but I gotta run.
<ckontros> 1hr
<scott-upstairs> persia, do you know of a command that can show the depends for ubuntu studio and also for xubuntu?
<scott-upstairs> i know about rdepends
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Do you mean apt-cache rdepends, or apt-rdepends? The latter gives a much more verbose result.
<astraljava> Or I should say, a recursive result.
<scott-upstairs> astraljava, i was speaking of apt-rdepends
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Okay, just making sure.
<scott-upstairs> although i'm thinking we really don't need recursive dependencies
<scott-upstairs> since we are only dorking with the seeds
<astraljava> Outside of that, I don't know how to get a list of dependencies.
<scott-upstairs> apt-cache should
<astraljava> Yeah okay, if no recursive is needed, then apt-cache rdepends should be enough.
<scott-upstairs> i wish i was better with grep
<scott-upstairs> i also wish i was independently wealthy as well ;)
<astraljava> There are maybe like 3 people in the world who doesn't. :D
<scott-upstairs> only 3 people who wish they weren't better with grep?  really
<scott-upstairs> hehe, kidding
<astraljava> :D
<astraljava> Probably the inventor of perl is one of them.
<scott-upstairs> argh, my laptop downstairs is really pissing me off, maybe i go ahead and switch it to xubuntu today
<scott-upstairs> list of ubuntustudio-desktop depends and recommends: http://paste.ubuntu.com/619111/
<scott-upstairs> list of xubuntu-desktop depends and recommends: http://paste.ubuntu.com/619113/
<scott-upstairs> running to the store be back in 30 minutes, it's 8:17am CST right now
<astraljava> scott-upstairs: Holy crap it's early. Don't you wanna sleep in still? ;)
 * ckontros is back (looks @ links)
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: Is this the xubuntu depends from their natty pkg or oneiric?
 * ckontros waves @ Charlie.
<astraljava> ckontros: Looks like from natty, the prompt doesn't look like he's using chroot, so I trust the natty-desktop part is true.
<astraljava> ckontros: I'm doing a chroot oneiric to compare just now.
<ckontros> I gotta do up a couple of VMs myself.
<scott-upstairs> back
<scott-upstairs> ckontros, crap, probably from natty :/
<scott-upstairs> but on friday i looked at the xubuntu seeds from natty and oneiric but they looked the same
<scott-upstairs> as if no changes had been made
<charlie-tca> scott-upstairs: that's because none have been made yet
<scott-upstairs> lol, there you go, i'm not mad ;)
<scott-upstairs> ckontros, didn't emmet say that the images build with recommends as well
 * scott-upstairs suspects this to be true otherwise we would have a less functional image
<ckontros> Yeah he did.
<scott-upstairs> ckontros, i'm printed both those pastebins and am highlighting the common packages now
<ckontros> I'm add/removing things I'm sure to the xubuntu pkg.
<ckontros> I'm also checking rdepends. Its AWN that I know for sure will get us if we add it now.
<ckontros> Well, actually its one of its recommended plugins.
<scott-upstairs> what do you mean "will get us"?
<ckontros> ie: Adding a tom og GNOME items like Nautilus.
<ckontros> *ton
<scott-upstairs> oh yeah, is there a way to prevent this?
<scott-upstairs> or will this force us to move to a different dock?
<charlie-tca> there is a way to make it not pull in their stuff, but I can't remember it
<ckontros> Its part of me talking to the AWN guys. Ill have to get them to move some things to "Suggests" or "Provides".
<charlie-tca> We do it for notifications
<ckontros> charlie-tca: Any notes on this would help. WOuld it be part of your *-desktop pkg?
<charlie-tca> should be something there
<charlie-tca> mvo or pitti helped us with it. We use xfce4-notifyd and pull in indicator-notifications from Ubuntu
<charlie-tca> they have some dependencies we do not use, and there is a way to make it not pull them 
 * ckontros is now listening to: Suicidal Tendencies - "Institutionalized"
<scott-upstairs> good song, old song, but still good
<scott-upstairs> rocky george is a vastly underrated guitarist
<ckontros> \m/
<ckontros> charlie-tca: So you use something else that wants to pull "indicator-notifications" and you block it?
<scott-upstairs> i listened to ST through "how can i smile tomrorrow..."
<scott-upstairs> i'm downloading the source for xfce4-notifyd and looking intot he control file
<charlie-tca> no, we pull indicator-notifications without it's dependendcies
<ckontros> Ahh...
<scott-upstairs> hmmmm, not seeing anything in the xfce4-notifyd control file that mentions "indicator-notifications", much less how to avoid dependecies :|
<ckontros> charlie-tca: Why do you guys have Evince and Ristretto? (both picture/PDF viewers)
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: Look in the -desktop pkg.
<charlie-tca> ristretto is crappy for pdf
<scott-upstairs> ckontros, good idea
<scott-upstairs> i'm still seeing nothing
<ckontros> charlie-tca: Ahh... Im not diggin Ristretto generally. It loads a single file unless you flip the pref to load everything in a folder. And on big folders, its a PITA.
<charlie-tca> agreed
<scott-upstairs> i suppose it could be because i don't know what to look for though :P
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: We'll find it. Its how I learned. ;)
<ckontros> I'm still going through this depends list. I think Im almost done.
<ckontros> Though Like I said, we'll need to push our settings pkg for this to work.
<scott-upstairs> i thought there would be some groovy, unexpected line in the control files, like
<scott-upstairs> Exclude:  the stuff you dont' want here
<scott-upstairs> but all i saw was the conflicts line
<scott-upstairs> Conflicts: notification-daemon, notification-daemon-xfce
<scott-upstairs> and that seems normal instead of trying to block installing dependencies
<ckontros> Gotcha
<charlie-tca> scott-upstairs: look for indicator-application
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: We'll be creating our own session file. This looks to be how the Xubuntu pkg works. Im hoping to edit that so we dont start a panel. But We'll push that change once we figure out the AWN stuff. For now, I'm copying our GNOME layout.
<scott-upstairs> indicator-application is in the -dekstop seed under Recommends:
<charlie-tca> Yes, you should create your own session
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: They mighta made a change in the indicator-application itself.
<scott-upstairs> ckontros, that sounds like a good plan, start simple and build from there
<scott-upstairs> i was going there next
<scott-upstairs> hmmm, indicator-applications looks normal as well :(
<scott-upstairs> oh, you know we have a seed that prevents packages from being installed
<scott-upstairs> xubuntu might have the same
<ckontros> I swore we had something like that but I couldnt remember.
<scott-upstairs> eh, both have a blacklist seed but both are the same
<ckontros> Can we add to it?
<ckontros> Look over this. I'm gonna start on the -settings pkg. http://paste.ubuntu.com/619184
<scott-upstairs> i would presume so
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: You got that BZR upload CMD that you think should work?
<scott-upstairs> for the -settings?
<ckontros> Si
<scott-upstairs> or for -desktop
<scott-upstairs> okay, hold on
<scott-upstairs> bzr push lp:~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<scott-upstairs> this is from this page: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<scott-upstairs> which i notice you have made changes before
<ckontros> Ok. Lemmie try
<scott-upstairs> rev. 70
<scott-upstairs> i will look at your pastebin in a bit, kids are all over me right now and i can't focus for that long right now
<ckontros> Dammit!! http://paste.ubuntu.com/619197
<scott-upstairs> i don't get asked about password for id_sha   hmmmmm
<scott-upstairs> or have a conversation process
<scott-upstairs> are you doing this in VM?  have you done this before in VM?
<ckontros> Nope
<ckontros> Should have proper keys: https://launchpad.net/~coryisatm
<scott-upstairs> i believe you need two files on your local machine as well though
<scott-upstairs> from your key
<ckontros> id_dsa and id_dsa.pub, yeah.
<scott-upstairs> in ~/.ssh you should have two files:  id_dsa and id....oh, k
<ckontros> ;)
<scott-upstairs> short of generating a new key, i can't offer any other suggestions
<scott-upstairs> is this a really old key?  maybe that's why is says it's converting
<ckontros> Nope. I made a new key to upload when I came back to hack.
<scott-upstairs> ckontros, hey are we transitioning from gnome Accessories applications to xfce ones?   like gedit -> abiword
<ckontros> I'm trying to keep things like that where we can. And the = to gedit is mousepad. Which I nixed.
<ckontros> Err.. Here, but not on your list. :P
<astraljava> conversion shouldn't be about a key anyway, but rather the bzr branch. Maybe branch again?
<astraljava> But then again, I cannot branch at all.
<ckontros> I tryed that as well. :(
<astraljava> ckontros: What's the error at your end?
<ckontros> http://paste.ubuntu.com/619197
<astraljava> For me it's: bzr: ERROR: Connection error: Couldn't resolve host 'xmlrpc.launchpad.net' [Errno -2] Name or service not known
<scott-upstairs> did both of you do bzr-launchpad-id or similar and setup bzr whoami on your local machines?
 * scott-upstairs is looking for actual commands
<ckontros> I believe I did.
<scott-upstairs> bzr whoami 'Scott Lavender <slavender@ubuntu.com>'
<scott-upstairs> for me, of course, and don't forget single quote
<scott-upstairs> and...
<ckontros> Cory Kontros <coryisatm@ubuntu.com>
<scott-upstairs> bzr launchpad-login slavender
<scott-upstairs> and you imported your ssh key into launchpad, too.....hmmmm, don't know what else it could be then
<scott-upstairs> ckontros, i also wasn't seeing any pulse audio packages or gstreamer packages at this point (still working my way down)
<astraljava> Meh. My problem was just a trailing https_proxy env variable, from office setup. :-/ Wish the error message was a tad more informative
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: They should have the gst pkgs but not the pulse stuff. We should think about adding them as well.
<scott-upstairs> ckontros, i also saw a "tumbler" package that doesn't appear to be in either seeds
<ckontros> Its a thumbnailer. I left it.
<scott-upstairs> did you start with the xubuntu seeds, the ubuntu studio seeds, or from scratch?
<ckontros> I edited the xubuntu one. Removing what I knew we didnt want, adding what I was sure we did and researched others.
<ckontros> It might not be perfect. That why I gave it to you for another pair of eyes.
<scott-upstairs> i thought you started the other direction but seeing the asterisks made me realize that you started with xubuntu ;)
<ckontros> We might need to add some stuff for the thumbnails actually. I had to do it on my system
<scott-upstairs> oh gstreamer stuff is in Recommends:
<ckontros> ffmpegthumbnailer, gnome-exe-thumbnailer, gnome-raw-thumbnailer and gnome-xcf-thumbnailer I believe.
<ckontros> Though the last two might be best in the -graphics pkg. IDK.
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: Ok. Gimmie a couple. I'm gonna clear out everything here and start over with BZR. (though I've done this once already) See where this gets me.
<scott-upstairs> we didn't have usb-creatior-gtk in previous seeds
<scott-upstairs> and in this current list i see no gedit but i see mousepad, as mentioned before
<scott-upstairs> and no pulse packages....i wonder how that will work?
<scott-upstairs> doing some family stuff for a bit
<ckontros> I added the gedit stuff after I sent the list.
<ckontros> cd
<ScottL> ckontros, any luck with bzr?
<ckontros> Hmm... Im unsure. :)
<ScottL> oh, lol
<ScottL> i wish someone else would lead the meeting :P
<ckontros> Well hell. It worked. :) I added the file ~/.ssh/conf and things worked.
<ScottL> i like how mike (holstein) has taken the responsibliity for setting the time and emailing people about the meetings
<ckontros> https://help.launchpad.net/Code/UploadingABranch#Pushing your Bazaar branch to Launchpad
<ScottL> that's a bit off my shoulders
<ScottL> ckontros, oh good!
<ckontros> Odd thing is, its stuff I already did through the CLI.
<ckontros> "https://help.launchpad.net/Code/UploadingABranch#Pushing your Bazaar branch to Launchpad" is the url
<ckontros> Killer. Its there. \m/ https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<ckontros> For now, there's a xubuntu folder thats their -settings pkg. Im working there and looking at our to make sure I copy things that are needed.
<ckontros> I'll move the inside of the xubuntu folder in place when I want mr.poit or someone to review.
<holstein> ScottL: i could chair if you'd like
<holstein> i'll have to poke around for the bot commands and all that, and make sure
<holstein> but, i've got a bit of time before the meeting
 * holstein making eggs...
<ScottL> oh, crap...i forgot about the bot commands
<ScottL> i did want to make sure i noted action items like charlie did so it's easy to go back and find those points...
<ScottL> ACTION ITEM;  foobar to be incorporating into the whatsitscalled package
<ckontros> Ok. Awesome. Now that I got this working I'll be alot more inclined to finish. :P
<ckontros> I hope to hear from Izo this week.
<ScottL> holstein, if you want to chair that would be awesome
<ScottL> ckontros, that's good, on both accounts
<holstein> fdew02_: o/
<holstein> ScottL: meeting is in an hour and 15 right?
<ckontros> ScottL: I want to get some more debate on the -desktop seed before we call it a day. I can hack on the -settings pkg by myself. You need to see if you can add to that blacklist to block a AWN recommend. If we can, then I might just skip the GNOME layout and go right for the AWN one.
<holstein> ScottL: alright, i feel good about chairing.. i found/remember the commands, and im reviewing the agenda
<ScottL> holstein, my understanding is that the meeting is one hour
<ScottL> ckontros, i can look into it, i'll ask cjwatson and a few others about the blacklist
<ckontros> Try Luke 1st.
<holstein> ScottL: i was firing off a reminder email, and wanted to double-check my math ;)
<ckontros> ScottL: Ok. I'm gonna cut my gra... er, weeds. I'll be back in an hour or so.
<scott-upstairs> lol\
<scott-upstairs> er, lol
<scott-upstairs> holstein, are you going flesh out the PR thingie in the agenda?
<holstein> scott-upstairs: i was thinking more just brianstorming anyways
<scott-upstairs> okay, there is also an interesting email for xubuntu about marketing and using some of the fedora's ideas
<scott-upstairs> holstein, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing
<scott-upstairs> i'm sending steve miers an email to let him know that he's spamming and probably wants to change his email password
<scott-upstairs> if you look at the wiki and it's structure for xubuntu, there is a lot to like and i hope we can start implementing similar structures/amenitities
<falktx> hey guys, this link might be of interest:
<falktx> http://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7142&sid=dcfa821aaa9e1849cc8555a26e031f84
<scott-upstairs> falktx, i know you're not the reason for this and this isn't directed at you
<scott-upstairs> did he say anything to us?  the mailing list?
<holstein> yeah, i'll kindly reply to that, and offer that anyone can get involved
<holstein> we all should*
<holstein> *meeting in 2
<holstein> that is on the heels of our advocacy thing too
<scott-upstairs> oi vey, and he's mixing kxstudio in there as well
<holstein> we need more folks to help and stop bitching
<holstein> i mean, lodge formal complaints*
<scott-upstairs> no offense intended falktx , but i really dislike it when they start mixing stuff and then complainning when stuff breaks
<holstein> anyways...
<falktx> scott-upstairs: no offense taken
<holstein> yeah, purge-ppa should be trouble-shooting step one, just in case
<ckontros> holstein: People will always bitch. It's the easiest way to contribute. ;)
<holstein> ckontros: lol
 * ckontros goes back to his weeds.
<holstein> scott-upstairs: i started the meeting by the way...
<scott-upstairs> right :)
<holstein> just pop in #ubuntu-meeting and give a o/ for 'roll-call'
<falktx> scott-upstairs: please note that I really listen to users, for example - https://bugs.launchpad.net/kxstudio
<holstein> falktx: i find your PPA's to be quite stable as well
<astraljava> ckontros: Really? The meeting should have just started.
<astraljava> Oh shit!
<astraljava> Wrong channel.
<holstein> yeah, /join #ubuntu-meeting
<scott-upstairs> falktx, i admire your work and your product...i give you press as often as i can
<falktx> scott-upstairs: thanks
<scott-upstairs> i just have a hard time with people who bitch and don't even do it in a proper forum
<falktx> sometimes I wish I could do better, not having internet at home sucks...
<scott-upstairs> or just say, "this sucks" or "it doesn't work" without anything substantive to help improve/fix it
<falktx> scott-upstairs: I totally get you, people sometimes don't really know what they're doing and just say "this is broken!"
<scott-upstairs> falktx,  i notice also that this isn't directed at ubuntu studio, but ubuntu proper, which is the proper place for this complaint to be leveled
<holstein> ckontros: you around?
<holstein> i want to hand the floor  over to you for the XFCE stuff
<holstein> i can skip it and come back to you if you want
<holstein> just ping me when you are around...
<astraljava> That's why I was worried when he said he's going back to his weeds...
<scott-upstairs> meeting is happening in #ubuntu-meeting for those interested
<scott-upstairs> and i'm sad to see that ailo isn't here :(
<scott-upstairs> heh, holstein, i was viewing actions as some task to assign to someone ;)
<ckontros> bbl
<holstein> yeah, im just noticing its been an hour
<holstein> and im action-ing some things to get them hopefully highlighted for those in the mailing list
<ckontros> Maybe pull our BZR branch for -menu and see if you can move it over to work for XFCE?
<falktx> ckontros: I can share my code with you, for a reference
<falktx> here:
<falktx> http://kxstudio.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=kxstudio/kxstudio;a=tree;f=menu;h=1a62961f5c8a208271be2b137fcc25257298fd0c;hb=master
<ckontros> falktx: Ok. So not actually do the work? Sharing code is great, but we need folks to *do* stuff. :)
<falktx> ckontros: hehe, sure I can help
<falktx> my problem is that I already have tons of work to do, and I'm not usually online
<ckontros> Gotcha
<ckontros> It will get done whan it gets done then. :)
<falktx> ckontros: I guess that to make US-menu work I just have to convert the files, easy stuff
<ckontros> Im hoping as well.
<falktx> ckontros: I do have a lot more apps to filter than US though...
<ckontros> falktx: Sure. We'll use what's useful.
<falktx> great
<ckontros> Im wondering. Is your install a all-or-nothing install? ie: If someone installs an app *after* install, that normally goes to "Multimedia", and you have a -menu entry for it, will it get moved?
<falktx> not sure if I understood
<falktx> the *-menu thing is always active
<ckontros> Or does your -menu pkg only work when you install the distro?
<falktx> if a new app gets installed, it will get to it's proper place right away
<falktx> ckontros: the deb I posted works anywhere
<falktx> ckontros: you do have to re-login though
<ckontros> "Proper" being where you've sent it via your -menu pkg.
<falktx> ^yes
<ckontros> Gotcha.
<falktx> I think US-menu does the same, right?
<ckontros> Yup.
<ckontros> But I was never sure if it worked cross-DE.
<falktx> I initially did it for KDE, which conforms to the standards
<falktx> the initial *menu did not worked on gnome...
<falktx> now it does
<falktx> ckontros: the trick is to replicate the "hide" part twice
<ckontros> Well the broader support the better.
<ckontros> Ok. I really gotta get back to my yard work. bbs
<falktx> can someone give me the link to US-menu code?
<falktx> I can do this right now, repacing my files with US ones
<ckontros> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-menu
<ckontros> But that seems off. Scott can tell you for sure.
<falktx> ckontros: btw, I also add some wine apps (not removed from wine menu) to the audio production menu. are you ok with it?
<falktx> scott-upstairs: ping
<falktx> btw, I just noticed something I forgot a long time ago
<falktx> this is wrong:
<falktx> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/oneiric/ubuntustudio-menu/oneiric/view/head:/AudioProduction.directory
<falktx> (using empty fields)
<falktx> if it's not translated, please comment them
<falktx> otherwise it will appear blank (no text) on the main menu
<astraljava> Good point, falktx, thanks!
<falktx> astraljava: i'll fork this, brb with a nice deb...
<ckontros> scott-upstairs: Notice the "upstream connections" thing here. On the left. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-default-settings
<ckontros> Should there be one for us here: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntustudio-menu
<ckontros> falktx: If you're hacking on it to be compatible with XFCE and KDE make sure its not routing all or the apps you do. I wanna simply replicate our current functionality and add stuff later.
<ckontros> scott-upstairs. Maybe we should just add falktx to ubuntustudio-dev?
<ckontros> brb
<ckontros> I wish charlie were in here.
<falktx> ok, time to test
<falktx> I don't have xcfe, anyone wanna test?
<astraljava> I can do a test install within an hour.
<falktx> 1h...
<ckontros> I'll test
<falktx> I just installed xfce4-panel
<falktx> it works!!
<falktx> hm... kinda cute awn dock at the bottom...
<ckontros> Cool. Ill try. If one removes the pkg, do things revert?
<falktx> ckontros: i haven't made a deb yet, I simply modded the files
<ckontros> Gotcha
 * falktx uploadds
<ckontros> falktx: Wanna be added to our -dev team?
<falktx> ckontros: yes!
<falktx> here you go:
<falktx> http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/tmp/us.tar.gz
<falktx> download the original us-menu code first, then replace the files
<falktx> make a deb out of it and install
<falktx> re-login on a xfce session to check it out
<ckontros> Check your mail.
<falktx> hm... something's odd...
 * ckontros pauses.
<falktx> oh, the apps are added but not removed from the main multimedia menu!
 * falktx investigates
<falktx> doesn't this menu follows the alacarte settings ?
<falktx> hm, let me reboot
<ckontros> falktx: Our current -menu pkg?
<falktx> ckontros: xfce should follow alacarte like gnome
<falktx> alacarte shows (ie, hides) the apps as expected
 * falktx -> reboot
<ckontros> ScottL: I need links to all the "trunk" branches for our pkgs. Its driving me nuts. Everything "looks* to be owned by ubuntu-branches. It didnt used to work this way. Somethings changed and I dont like it.
<ckontros> ScottL: Actually, I think LP needs some cleanup. We have pkgs that areent under the ubuntu studio project. Maybe thats one issue? IDK. Its needs serious investigation.
<ckontros> At the least, I need links to all of our trunk branches so I can upload.
<astraljava> ckontros: http://paste.ubuntu.com/619357/
<ckontros> astraljava: See all the non-uniformity. I *swear* is wasnt always like that.
<ckontros> This is really helpful, but I need the http links like this also: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-default-settings/UbuntuStudio
<falktx> back
 * ckontros waves
<falktx> it doesn't work properly...
<ckontros> :(
<falktx> it does work on gnome and kde, not on xfce though
<falktx> it seems like we need another remove-this list
<falktx> ckontros: the weird part is that when right-clicking on menu, "edit", it displays the apps properly
<falktx> just not in the menu itself
<astraljava> ckontros: 
<astraljava> http://paste.ubuntu.com/619359/
<ckontros> Thanx man
<falktx> I think I got it
<falktx> xcfe uses another app.menu file...
<falktx> done!
<ckontros> ;)
<falktx> xfce menu fully working!!
<falktx> it seems xfce doesn't follow the rules too
<ckontros> Boooo.......
<falktx> only kde is behaving
<falktx> ckontros: the link I sent you is good, just need to do 1 modification
<ckontros> k
<falktx> applications.menu (which goes to /usr/share/ubuntustudio-menu/menus/), needs a symlink to xfce-applications.menu
<falktx> ckontros: please write this down, very important
<falktx> ^
<ckontros> (channel logged)
<falktx> hehe
<falktx> ckontros: basically /usr/share/ubuntustudio-menu/menus/ will have the applications.menu file and a symlink to it, got it?
<falktx> just need to tweak the debian folder to add that link
<ckontros> falktx: Now that you're part of the team, Im hoping you can just pull the branch and make the change. Will be better that someone who knows what they're doing makes the change rather than me remember. ;)
<falktx> ckontros: hm... I just don't know bzr
<falktx> I'm used to git
<ckontros> oh ok
<ckontros> falktx: Can you give me the exact text I need to add to the debial/install file?
<ckontros> *debian/install
<falktx> ckontros: not install, it's other file
<falktx> ckontros: let me try to use bzr once
<falktx> if I fail, I'll tell you
<ckontros> falktx: It can be a bit to set up @ first. Look here: https://help.launchpad.net/Code/UploadingABranch
<falktx> thanks, I'll check
<ckontros> This should also help. https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio/ubuntustudio-menu
<falktx> damn
<ckontros> Not the "branch" and "push" cmds @ the top.
<ckontros> *Note
<falktx> bzr launchpad-login falk-t-j -> crash
<ckontros> odd
<astraljava> falktx: Which derivate/release?
<ckontros> falk: See that part where you create the ~/.ssh/config file?
<ckontros> falktx: That might help you also. I had to do it.
<falktx> wo, worked
<falktx> several tries and now is ok
<falktx> have to go
<falktx> cya
<astraljava> Later.
<ckontros> I want to make the one change you told me about but you said it wasnt the "instal" file I put it in.
<ckontros> damn
<rlameiro> hi there
<rlameiro> how was the meeting?
<astraljava> ckontros: That's probably postinst
<rlameiro> I couldnt make it
<astraljava> Hi rlameiro!
<rlameiro> i had a concert sorry
<rlameiro> astraljava: Hey man :D
<rlameiro> long time no see :D
<ckontros> astraljava: Sure. So Im unsure where I have to add it.
<rlameiro> ckontros: hi there. nice to see you over here again :D
<ckontros> Yeah. I'm gonna hang out a little. ;)
<rlameiro> ScottL scott-upstairs hi there. what do you think about the presentation/help videos? do we try to make them for this release or is it better to wait to have the release and website before make them?
<rlameiro> ckontros: nice:D
<astraljava> rlameiro: Yeah, I had some problems which prevented from being present here. Should be getting better now, slowly.
<rlameiro> astraljava: nice to ear that. I myself have been a little away from US. My work doesnt let to much time to help as much as I want,...
<ckontros> Ok. Gonna give the rest of the day to the family. Scott: PM if you get a chance with responses to my queries.
<astraljava> rlameiro: Yeah, such is life. Not many of us have the possibility to provide a steady source of voluntarily help all the time.
<rlameiro> astraljava: sadly true...
<scott-upstairs> hmmm, missed rlameiro
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-28
<len-live> Tried installing our latest ISO ... ubiquity failed.. bug #1005350
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1005350 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "12.10 ubiquity crashed during copy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1005350
<len-live> For whoever cares, it appears that xfce4-utils needs to be removed from our seeds/metas. The packages that previously depended on it now "replace" it.
<len-dt> I'm trying to remember who has the permissions to change our seeds/packages...
<Len-nb> filed bug #1005379
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1005379 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "ISO will not build from package conflict" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1005379
<Len-nb> I was unable to assign this to ubuntustudio-seeds
<Len-nb> I have also filed Bug #1005381 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1005381 in ulatencyd (Ubuntu) "with ulatencyd installed, when jackdbus is started mouse/keyboard lock/freeze" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1005381
<ailo> astraljava: You have access, right? Maybe you could sort it out (read above)
<astraljava> ailo: len-dt: I think affects is set to correct package, and assigned should be set to anyone currently working on the problem, ie. first whoever starts to fix it in seeds can set it for h[im|er]self, and then when it moves forward, whoever uploads and so forth.
<astraljava> ailo: Oh, you meant actually fixing it in the seeds? Yeah, I've been meaning to do that.
<astraljava> len-dt: That's actually a dupe, let me find the orig.
<astraljava> https://launchpad.net/bugs/1002250
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1002250 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "[quantal] xfce4-utils is deprecated in 4.10" [Undecided,New]
<len-dt> astraljava, Thank you for marking the duplicate bug. Thats why I list all my bugs here (that affect US anyway)
<len-dt> astraljava, I am surprised it would affect the settings package though
<astraljava> len-dt: I'll try to look into it this evening, so let's see.
<astraljava> len-dt: But yeah, thanks for creating action in here, we need to pick up speed now. I think Scott will be available more soon-ish, too.
<len-dt> astraljava, No problem, I didn't realize anyone had looked into it. Posting bug numbers when posted is helpful in that.
<len-dt> s/posted/filed
<astraljava> len-dt: Sure, but bugs are aplenty, and it's a bit redundant. And I'm not sure who are reading backlogs regularly anyway. :) That's why searching for existing is useful and recommended.
<len-dt> astraljava, I will do mor work on the menu as well. I have the apps we ship in the right place, but I would like to try to include other commonly used programs as well, so that when the user installs them.
<astraljava> len-dt: Also, you should be getting the bugmail as you're in the ~ubuntustudio-dev team, right?
<len-dt> astraljava, I did do a search, but probably not the right search string.
<astraljava> Yeah, things can still slip by.
<len-dt> Actually I did not.
<len-dt> I put myself on the team, but maybe that was after the bug was filed.
<astraljava> Ok, let us know if you are not getting bugmail, though. It's sometimes a burden, but still overall helpful. :)
<len-dt> I did get the duplicat report and the changes you made to the original though
<astraljava> Oh that's good.
<len-dt> I still get more spam than real email
<ochosi> hey guys
<astraljava> o/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-29
<astraljava> Hmm... could be that our video-genre deficiency is possibly removed soon? http://www.lwks.com/
<jussi> yeah, i saw that -looks fantastic
<len-dt> astraljava, Our list of conflicts has gotten bigger.. just got a bunch of  build fails in email.
<astraljava> len-dt: Heh, cool. :) Well, I'm just leaving the office, so I'll dive in in a few minutes.
<len-dt> Great, I am on my way to work...
<len-dt> The emails are not in order BTW
<astraljava> "Have a nice day!"  I was on support duty today, and tomorrow still... :-/
<len-dt> Long hours?
<astraljava> Not very, but when the customers are like the few today... They sure feel like it.
<len-dt> :-)
<holstein> ailo: yeah.. how to make it easier to revert to the old way ;)
<ailo> Yep
<ailo> For a few releases, the qjackctl starter had the pasuspender command in it
<ailo> But now, it's not "needed" with the default config
 * holstein is a fuddy-duddy ;)
<ailo> We should add this to ubuntustudio-controls. Have a toggle for enabling/disabling the PA bridge
<holstein> ailo: i like that a lot!
<ailo> Actually, pasuspender is still there
<ailo> in /usr/bin/qjackctl
<ailo> It should kick in if needed, but I don't yet know the logic behind that script
<holstein> well... if you dont, i know i wont get it
<ailo> I figure there might be a bug involved
<ailo> /usr/bin/pasuspender/usr/bin/X11/pasuspender doesn't seem like an executable to me
<holstein> we should file that... that sux its like that in the LTS
<holstein> is that something we can fix and "update"
<holstein> ?
<ailo> We will want to backport qjackctl as soon as it appears in debian repos
<ailo> The newer one
<ailo> Since we already have a bug with that one
<holstein> cool
<ailo> I'll have a look at the qjackctl starter script now, and discuss it with deb packagers. If it's a but, it would be nice to have it fixed for the next qjackctl package and get two flies in one blow
<ailo> if it's a bug*
<ailo> I've been a little busy lately. Eager to finish the website, but I won't do anything about that today. I've set it as a goal for myself to do what I can about that this week
<ailo> holstein: You have any suggestions for the website right now? (other than obvious edits to the staging site to make it up to date)
<ailo> holstein: /usr/bin/qjackctl is not buggy, just enhanced
<ailo> It now assumes you always have pulseaudio-module-jack installed, to enable the jack-pulse bridge. But, if you disable d-bus (jackdmp), starting jack from qjackctl will suspend PA
<ailo> Er, can't confirm that yet..
<ailo> Nope. I can't make sense of it. I posted about it to the debian multimedia team, so hopefully they can tell me how it is supposed to work
<knome> hmpf.
<scott-work> for those interested:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-quantal-flavor-ubuntustudio
<scott-work> this is the "header" blueprint for our other blueprints, look at bottom of page and click on a oval to see that blueprint
<scott-work> i'll post to the list later
<scott-work> also....
<scott-work> PLEASE feel free to review them and change things!!!
<scott-work> especially replacing [ubuntustudio-dev] with [<yournamehere>] as you feel you want to commit to an item
<scott-work> and i'll be reviewing these again later tonight/tomorrow and making tweaks as well
<scott-work> i'm hoping len-dt, in particular, will review https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-q-performance
<scott-work> and i'm hoping ailo will review https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-q-documentation
<scott-work> ailo: please note the documentation blueprint includes others that you have not committed, don't worry about these as i expect to head these up
<ailo> scott-work: I do believe the documentation I have provided covers some of those items, but of course, some could be reviewed
<scott-work> ailo: no problems, i just didn't want you to think you were responsible for ALL of it, but please add your launchpad name to the items you have done/plan to do
<ailo> scott-work: I wouldn't mind taking the lead on the whole documentation blueprint, and thus being responsible for all of it. It would help making the organization of it in sync with what has been done, and what has been discussed. Also, I would be responsible for keeping track of all of it
<ailo> I mean, keeping track of everything that anyone would think is worth documenting
<knome> isn't there also the general assignee field for every blueprint?
<ailo> scott-work: I'm a bit late to suggest this, but I also did get into it pretty late, so it's only natural
<scott-work> ailo: ptttthh, i'm the late one to this party
<scott-work> ailo: i think you should be lead for documentation
 * knome kicks scott-work in the ankle shouting: yes you are! (:
<scott-work> hehe,,,it's funny because it's true!
<ailo> scott-work: Good. I'll try to make the most of it this summer!
<scott-work> ailo: my plans are to still help with the development and testing documentation. i'm hoping that janne will help with the testing processes, but his involvement isn't absolutely critical 
<ailo> scott-work: I think I will be able to cover most things. One I won't be putting too much attention is material for workflows. I won't mind organizing it, but I won't be producing it. Testing I will be producing, as well as user docs
<scott-work> ailo: i'll be able to add several HOWTO's as well for various workflows
<scott-work> ailo: and i don't mind taking care of the workflow producing and organizing
<ailo> As for testing, I will of course do my best to be ancle deep in it, as much as I can, but it will be up to anyone involved to help decide how to go about it. Since I will be doing a lot of the testing (been setting up a minor facility here at home), it makes sense that I document it. 
<scott-work> ailo: one thing you should really look into is the vm tools that the security team has been using
<scott-work> they do somethings that are completely stupid simple
<scott-work> like 'vm new' which will download the current image, copy and edit some xml, fire up a vm, and start a new instance with the downloaded image
<scott-work> there are some tweaks needed i'm sure, e.g. like adjusting the image name/location
<scott-work> and apparently the iso testing team also has some automation that could be really, really usefull (i can't currently remember what it was but i have it written down in my blog and elsewhere)
<ailo> scott-work: I'll have a look
<scott-work> here is the blueprint for qa-tools:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-tools
<scott-work> you will probably have to locate them in the security PPA 
<knome> that doesn't look like a blueprint :)
<scott-work> sorry, doing too many things and knome is quite correct
<scott-work> i had the blueprint but copied the address from the wrong tab
<knome> :)=
<scott-work> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20523/qa-q-ubuntu-qa-tools/
<scott-work> just received an email from the kernel people (well leann and tim and their kernel mail list) about the lowlatency kernel
<scott-work> tim had committed to getting the lowlatency into the kernel team if they had collapsed a few other kernels, which had been accomplished
<scott-work> leann was wanting reminders for the compelling reasons to do so. i complied.
<scott-work> i hope this helps push this through and something doesn't fall out of place
<scott-work> okay, going home
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-30
<len-dt> ailo, where is your list of USB devices known to work?
<len-dt> Both the ART devices seem to work as intended. They are both USB 1.1, so stereo, 44100/48000 at 16bit.
<len-dt> ailo, looking at the specs I would say all 4 of the ART USB IF would work, but I have only tried the ART USB Dual Tube PRE and the ART USB Dual Pre Project Series. SO I know they both work for sure. Plug and go.
<len-dt> ailo, I bought the dual tube and have found that even on my netbook, I can get good solid -p 64 service out of it with no xruns at all.
<len-dt> ScottL, I hope you read the logs :-) The blue print works for me ok.
<len-dt> Scott, the changing settings on the fly is done. The gui to set up what those changes are is not :-)
<len-dt> ailo, Scott, others,  I am thinking that turning off cron, anacron and atd in record/tweak/performance mode is the way to go.
<len-dt> My reasoning is this: even though, on any good(modern?) system it should not matter, because of it's intermittentcy, it would be very hard to track down. However, it can be turned on and off by installing/removing three files, so maybe it doesn't matter if it is configurable. In fact it may be easiest to just rename the files.
<astraljava> Ooh, blueprints!
<astraljava> Sorry guys, I crashed last night. Hopefully it'll mean I'll have more efficient bug fixing hours ahead. :)
<ailo> len-dt: I regard fully supported those that function within their specs. So, if they are specified to work at 96kHz/24bits, that is what you need to be able to get
<ailo> Are you saying your ART tube is a usb 1.1 device only?
<len-dt> ailo, yes, the ART devices are USB 1.1, The USB is 16 bit and the spdif is 24 bit using two different ADCs
<len-dt> They do have some USB2 devices, but they are many more pennies.
<ailo> len-dt: Then it is a fully supported usb 1.1 device, which most usb2 devices are able to operate at also
<ailo> So, for usb 1.1 operation, the list may be quite long
<ailo> But not for usb 2
<len-dt> ailo, Ya. I am looking at the moe expecive ones manual just now.
<len-dt> ailo,  The voice channel has 24bit up to 192k USB and follows USB2 spec (no extra drivers for mac/win)
<len-dt> their USB mic, which is USB2, Calls itself Linux compatible. However ailo, it does not have much info on how.
<len-dt> It does bring to light one of the downfalls of USB mic. The package list says "3 meter USB cable ". It reminds me that is about the max length it should be.
<len-dt> 3 meters for a USB cable is already long.
<len-dt> I'm off.
<knome> the "linux-compatible" part probably means that it works if you write the drivers yourself. :)
<len-dt> knome, I think it means if you plug it into a linux system audio will get in... the question is will it be anything more than 16 bit at 44.1/48k
<knome> :)
<len-dt> The unit is too many pennies for me to buy and try out..
 * Len-nb is thinking out loud
<Len-nb> ailo, since I am using runlevels to determine modes of operation, there are some things that need to be taken care of.
<Len-nb> The first thing is that a user can from the boot command line have the system boot directly into "Audio mode" (or video mode should such a thing come into being)
<Len-nb> Also, a user while in "audio mode" may log out and back in without changing the mode.
<Len-nb> This can be either a feature or a bug. I would prefer to call it a feature.
<Len-nb> I might even go so far as to try to have the system boot to whatever mode it was in at shutdown.
<Len-nb> However that would take away the option for the user to determine a mode at boot time.
<Len-nb> Anyway, that takes care of system side things (anything requiring root perm)
<ailo> I've been working on the web site today
<Len-nb> userland things like pulse on or not would have to be set at login time depending on what the runlevel is.
<Len-nb> ailo, how has that gone?
<Len-nb> is that wiki or US web site?
<ailo> Pretty well. I'm slimming it down, and trying to get it ready for publishing asap
<ailo> ubuntustudio.org, which is worked at https://staging.ubuntustudio.org
<Len-nb> Good, that is the one thing really missing.
<ailo> Right now I'm working on the feature tour
<Len-nb> I have to run, kids to take to the dentist... so I am gone a few hours.
<ailo> ok. I'll be going to sleep in a moment. Catch you later
<Len-nb> I'll take a look when I get back
<ailo> Right now it would just be nice to finish up the feature tour. Try to keep it simple, and attractive looking
<ailo> After that, and making sure all the text is correct and up to date, it just needs to be published
<ailo> A more thorough documentation, hosted at the main site can be published for next release
<len-dt> ailo, on https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/ubuntu-studio/, you have "Ubuntu Studio is Linux-based" it should be "Ubuntu Studio is a Linux-based"
<len-dt> ailo, I'm assuming you want me to be picky ;-)
<len-dt> One paragraph down, second sentence "Ubuntu Studio free" should be "Ubuntu Studio is free"
<len-dt> next page: https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/audio/, under Jack, "eve" should be "even"
<ailo> len-dt: I haven't done any text editing on those pages yet
<len-dt> Did you want comments on spelling then?
<ailo> I'm not really finished with much yet
<ailo> The downloads page is mostly done
<ailo> I've just started adding some pics to the feature tour thing
<ailo> That will take most time I think
<ailo> The links on the download page don't work yet. I'll fix that
<ailo> For next release, I'll want to move installation instructions to a doc page
<ailo> For now, I think it's fine as it is, given there isn't any strangeness with the wording etc
<ailo> Ok, I better go to sleep now. I estimate it will take me another couple of weeks to finish my efforts for the web site and the wiki, so testing will come after that for me. So, perhaps in two weeks time
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-05-31
<frewsxcv> ailo: is the new site still using drupal?
<ailo> frewsxcv: Nope. Wordpress
<len-dt> ailo, For the most part, I would put the web page up now. I would like to see a news spot about 12.04 though. The latest one is for 11.10 and is not very nice. 12.04 is much better.
<len-dt> scott-work, I have a mode switcher in place on my machine. I just have to do a configure program. Right now the mode switch is a part of my workflow project, but it would be nice to have a tray-able applet.
<len-dt> scott-work, how many modes do you see us using? Right now I have desktop and audio, but there could be desktop, audio, video, graphics.
<len-dt> although I would think desktop and graphics might be the same... but I don't make enough use of those programs to know.
<len-dt> scott-work, our lead singer/guitarist does both music and graphics, but on the other hand tweaking a computer or even changing preset modes is not something he does. (so he has a Mac)
 * len-dt is off to work
<scott-work> ronoc: do you have a few moments for a small discussion?  i would learn and understand your experiences and perspective
<ronoc> hi scott-work 
<ronoc> can we do this in a bit
<ronoc> just about to go into a meeting
<ronoc> would love to chat about stuff :)
<scott-work> capital!
<scott-work> TheMuso: i am in discussion with leann about the lowlatency kernel. tim has contacted her about moving it into their work since they have collapsed several other kernels, which was the condition to which he would accept it. she is asking that we justify our request based on downloads, which is not unreasonable.
<scott-work> TheMuso: her concern being that their work and responsibility is warranted. i am happy to comply and am in the process of getting this information, although i would be unable to properly acquire reasonable number for torrents i fear
<ailo> len-dt: Yeah, I haven't looked at the news thing yet. We just need to add a post for that. Might as well remove the old ones too
<ailo> I will put heart and soul into adding more stuff to the feature tour on the web site these coming days
<ailo> But not today. Today is all about cyckling
<ailo> cycling*
<ailo> scott-work: What does that mean? If -lowlatency is not downloaded often enough, they won't want to maintain it?
<scott-work> ailo: essentially, but there is a history to the request
<scott-work> ailo: in particular the i386 non-pae generic kernel is used as an example of a kernel with similar maintenance requirements but limited (and dwindling) usage that the kernel team dropped
<ronoc> scott-work, so
<ronoc> i gotta go in 10 mins 
<ronoc> scott-work, should we schedule a chat tomorrow afternoon
<ronoc> how about 5pm GTM +1
<ronoc> scott-work, are you EST ?
<scott-work> ronoc: sorry was busy with work, i'm CST
<scott-work> ronoc: i'll have to see what 5pm GTM +1 is for me before i can answer :P
<ronoc> probably about 11am
<ronoc> scott-work, ^
<ronoc> or maybe later
<scott-work> ronoc: tomorrow afternoon at 5pm GTM +1 is good for me (which currently 24 hours hence approximately)
<scott-work> you were correct that would be 11:00am my time
<ronoc> scott-work, oka cool
<ronoc> okay cool
<scott-work> hehe. by the way, i look forward to our discussion :)
<ronoc> scott-work, defo, okay gotta run laters
<scott-work> oh, i added this my google calendar and realized that the release meeting...
<scott-work> ah crap, he left :P
<scott-work> ronoc, if you read the logs: i'll be just getting out of the release meeting, i don't _think_ this will impact my availability, i hope the release meeting will actually go shorter than previously so we should be okay
<frewsxcv> buffer cplug
<scott-work> astraljava: it looked like you might be making changes to the seeds based on the xfce4-utils bug that mrprouit filed?  or at least assigned yourself?
<scott-work> astraljava: if you don't plan on it or haven't yet i would like to do so this weekend
<astraljava> scott-work: Sure, if you want, I haven't started yet.
<astraljava> I'll de-assign myself.
<astraljava> Done.
<micahg> I wasn't sure if the other changes needed to be done at the same time (or I would've updated the seeds last week)
<len-dt> scott-work, looking at the blueprint, I am not going to be much good at telling if audio tweaks will "degrade" non-audio performance... aside from maybe the browser ;-)
<len-dt> scott-work, it may be easier to get the config GUI set up so other people can test what they use their system for.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-06-01
<Len-nb> Just something to know, at least one of the screen saver we ship has a memory leak. Bug #1007257, It makes low values of swappiness appear to not work. "Blank Screen Only", which we default to is fine.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1007257 in xscreensaver (Ubuntu) "glschool, and maybe others has memory leak" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1007257
<Len-nb> If someone complains of "swap hell" after the system has run over night, first question should be what screen saver do you use?
<micahg> heh, that's an old bug :)
 * micahg used to wake up to xscreensaver crashing
<Len-nb> micahg, could be, I was testing different values for swappiness... It looked like it made no difference till I changed the screen saver.
<scott-work> hi ronoc
<ronoc> hey scott-work 
<scott-work> i'm good for the next thirty minutes probably if you want to talk
<scott-work_> sorry, webchat crapped out on me, ronoc, i'm good for the next thirty minutes probably if you want to talk
<ronoc> scott-work, okay cool so what should we use ?
<ronoc> hangout, skype ?
<scott-work_> hmmm, i'm at work and probably can't do either to be honest :/
<ronoc> okay cool
<ronoc> so what do you wanna chat about ?
<scott-work_> unless you wanted to wait another six hours?
<ronoc> scott-work_, can't i'm afraid
<scott_work> okay :)
<scott_work> i spoke with john at UDS (don't know his last name but he works with artwork) and he mentioned you doing audio work
<scott_work> he also mentioned that you commented on the kernel and wanted to get more information on your experience with it
 * scott_work apologizes, he is trying to irc while doing work email and office visits concurrently :/
<ronoc> scott_work, yes i use avstudio for my performance
<ronoc> work
<ronoc> just because i need to low latency
<scott_work> ah! which has an RT kernel, no?
<ronoc> <8ms
<ronoc> i use the low latency kernel
<ronoc> with firewire
<ronoc> echo audio
<scott_work> ronoc: have you tried the current kernel we use? the lowlatency kernel in the repos?
<ronoc> i haven't to be honest
<scott_work> i think holstein has the same firewire device and was getting stupid low latnecies, like 1,45 ms
<ronoc> wow
<ronoc> okay i can try that
<scott_work> yeah, it was crazy
<scott_work> i tested with a single core dell machine and onboard sound and got stable 5msec latencies
<ronoc> okay cool
<scott_work> ronoc: i'll be direct as well, i worry about misconceptions and awareness that are around the real time kernel
<scott_work> and also real time vs the lowlatency kernel
<ronoc> sure
<scott_work> so i admit i'm a little punchy when i hear people talk about them :P
<ronoc> fair enough
<scott_work> ronoc: but the other thing i wanted to talk about...do you have any suggestions on what we could do to make ubuntu studio better?
<scott_work> system settings? include idfferent applications? change background colour?  whatever :)
 * scott_work admits he has avlinux but hasn't really played with it very much
<ronoc> scott_work, I'll be honest scott_work I would need to work with it for a bit. i haven't had that much time over the past while - I will it try when i get some time.  
<ronoc> scott_work, also for this cycle I'm going to be working on other stuff besides audio
<ronoc> we have had a big reorg here on the developer
<scott_work> ack
<ronoc> side
<scott_work> but i would love to have direct feedback from someone who is really uses and understands the tools :)
<ronoc> aye
<ronoc> scott_work, believe me i would love to have all my time working on the audio experience
<scott_work> hehe, me too
<ronoc> but really my job involves developing software that is spec'd by the design team
<scott_work> funnily though i keep getting drawn into the dev side of studio than more as a user :(
<scott_work> it's a personality trait...i like organization and organizing things
<scott_work> oh, so for example, when Dash or the HUD came about, you (or your team) worked on making it work from a software engineering perspective?
 * scott_work is just picking Dash and the HUD because it was the only recent thing he could think of that has been developed
<scott_work> i'm also asking about this because of a meeting i had with sabdfl that will probably result in similar work
<ronoc> scott_work, yes
<ronoc> scott_work, ted did the hud
<ronoc> scott_work, i did the indicator-sound
<ronoc> and the sound settings changes last cycle
<scott_work> that must be rather exciting (if not a little frustrating) stuff to work on
<ronoc> scott_work, this cycle it looks like i'll be something entirely different
<ronoc> which ?
<ronoc> the sound settings ?
<ronoc> it was actually
<ronoc> hopefully i'll get it upstream
<ronoc> once we get an SRU proven
<scott_work> in general
<scott_work> no, no...the job itself, working on stuff from the design team
<ronoc> scott_work, it is to be fair, nice bunch of people to work with
<ronoc> and the flexibility to work from home suits me down to a tee
<ronoc> i'll give u-studio a go once i free up a partition on my work machine
<ronoc> see how it behaves
<scott_work> ronoc: hehe, i don't wish to be misspoken, i meant "a little frustrating" not because of the design team as people, but because they might want something that isn't easy to implement, i would presume it is the nature of the work actually
<ronoc> indeed it is :)
<scott_work> ronoc: captital!  i look forward to any feedback you have :)
<scott_work> ronoc: one of the things that i would like to pursue (which resulted in the meeting with mark) is to simplify our user's experience with the desktop....or rather to *remove* the desktop from their experience
<scott_work> it is somewhat analogous to juju and charms....
<scott_work> people don't deploy wordpress (as an example)
<ronoc> cool
<scott_work> they deploy a web server, database, and wordpress and then create a database and link them all together via juju
<ronoc> so the user can easily swap in and out desktops ?
<scott_work> that is a possibility that we have considered ;)
<scott_work> considering audio, our users do something similar....they don't run ardour
<scott_work> they deploy jack, ardour, any synths, create files (or use templates to start) and then make connections
<scott_work> i don't like having to click five buttons and wait minutes to then make connections....can it be automated?
<scott_work> can i go to the hud or dash and type 'start recording band' or 'start recording riff' and the result is it will start qjackctl, jackd, ardour, load the right template, and make the right connections
<scott_work> ?
<scott_work> using "band" and "riff" would cause different templates and connections to be made
<scott_work> but in the short term we are also looking at the possibilities of using scripting, docks, "modes" (or switchable desktops as you said), and something that len is developing
<scott_work> oops, lunch time, must go!
<ronoc> scott_work, jack-session
<ailo> scott_work: Check out gladish
<ailo> It's sort of a substitute to qjackctl (which also has session support), where you load apps, connect them graphically, and save the whole setup
<ronoc> yup another alternative
 * ronoc needs to do some merging
<ailo> Yeah, alternative
<ailo> scott_work: Anyway, it would make sense to have some default setups for users there. It would be an easy way to showcase applications, and create actual workflows
<ailo> Even with saved setups, the user might need help understanding what they just loaded, and how to use it though
<ailo> It would be great if this session feature could be combined with a workflow toolbar, but someone would have to code it
<ailo> Right now, I don't think there's any other way of starting apps with gladish, but to use commands
<ailo> It would be nicer if you could just start apps from any menu, and use the session software to save a snapshot of whatever jack apps are active and connected
<ailo> AFAIK no jack session controlling software will save any active applications, if they were not started from the jack session capable application
<ailo> That's the only downside for me, I think, with current session soft
<scott_work> ronoc: ailo: i have looked into both of those, however they are both either not as pervasive as i suggested nor as fully implemented as they would need to be
<scott_work> but further, i would like to implement such a system beyond just audio
<scott_work> what about film work or graphical or photography or e-books
<scott_work> ailo: from what i have learned, gladish can restart applications and remake connections on saved project, but with only a select subset of the available applications we ship
<scott_work> e.g. you cannot restart ardour at this point i believe, but you can with qtractor
<scott_work> but let's be honest and direct, my framework suggestion, while being highly extensible, would be also require appreciable changes across a vast array of applications, and is certainly not something that will be completed soon (if at all)
<scott_work> exposing things on dbus could allow this to happen, but it would require buy in from all the developers, which is probably not likely to happen. especially if you read "discussion" between paul davis and nedko, authors of jack-session and ladish repsectively
<scott_work> so, it might be that a "short term solution", or essentially a "proof of concept" methodology might be required, even if it doesn't use the same methodology or mechanics as _the_ long term solution (whatever it may be)
<ailo> scott_work: Ardour works fine, as long as you start it with the right command
<ailo> Like, "ardour2"
<ailo> Or you mean, not the same things are supported for ardour as for qtractor?
<ailo> Oh, you said restart
<scott_work> yes, i believe it will start fine but cannot be restarted automatically as qtractor can be
<scott_work> yes :)
<scott_work> for those who are curious, here is a demo video from the ladish website: http://ladish.org/wiki/demovideo
<ailo> scott_work: It loads, but not the project in use. 
<scott_work> it shows the restarting everything
<ailo> Funny Finnish background music
<scott_work> the video shows it loading the project, but that may be because hydrogen was set to load the last project by default
<ailo> scott_work: The only downside with Ardour not auto loading its project is that you need to do that step manually, but all the connections you've made between the apps, including Ardour are reconnected once you've chose the project you are using
<ailo> I don't know why I'm writing so badly right now..
<ailo> Anyway, that is how it seems. You load the Ardour project manually, but the connections are persistant between loads
<ailo> Can't say I'm overly thrilled with the looks and practices of (g)ladish, but there isn't anything better out there for this 
<ailo> scott_work: I don't think the number of apps are that select, aside from the apps not autoloading their projects
<scott_work> ailo: nedko shows "compliance levels" http://ladish.org/wiki/levels and i thought there was a list on the website that showed current compliance per applications
<scott_work> but it appears taht it may be tied to only the version of gladish
<ailo> scott_work: Ok, so perhaps they haven't implemented project loading yet
<ailo> I had no idea what the runlevels did tbh until now. I just tried saving GIMP, and that worked fine
<ailo> The current version only has runlevels 0 and 1 AFAIK
<ailo> It's still quite usable
<ailo> It would be possible to make scripts to open apps in order, have them connect in some way, and load projects for showcasing though
<ailo> But that would not be for saving sessions, only showing thenm
<ailo> scott_work: Some apps will load the project by using an argument, which is perfectly possible to do from ladish
<ailo> scott_work: So, that would work with ardour. 
<ailo> In this way, at least showcasing workflows would be perfectly seemless when loading them
<ailo> scott_work: If you want to implement actual usable workflows in practice for Ubuntu Studio, I just don't see any better way than to use gladish
<ailo> I don't use it myself, since I don't use more than one application most of the time, so I haven't been much interested in learning about it
<ailo> Also, I think many who are used to their methods might overlook the benefits it has
<ailo> To start a project with ardour, you just add the filepath to the project as an argument: ardour2 /path/to/my/projectdir
<scott_work> ailo: interesting!  sorry for the delay, been busy at work
<ailo> scott_work: I was just looking into capturing desktop video to do a similar thing showing how to create the studio, do the connections, and reload it. Since each application may have its own way of loading a project, you need to supply each with their own project argument. It's not optimal, but since connections are persistent, I would say it's fully functional
<ailo> scott_work: I'll add a howto to the community wiki later, that explains this procedure. 
<ailo> That should be a good way to start documenting this possible way to tackle workflows
<ailo> Might be best to start making video tutorials in general
<scott_work> ailo: what i would like to do during this cycle is to really talk about how to approach work flows and how we can make it easier to use before deciding on a particular methodology
<scott_work> s/use/users
<ailo> scott_work: There's only two things that can help. 1. Documentation 2. Software Tools
<scott_work> hehe, but everyone has ideas :)
<ailo> 1. we can do. 2. we either code, or give feedback to coders
<ailo> It would seem smartest to help develop those apps that are already there
<ailo> Also, what we have is what we have. So, we just need to figure out how to use it
<ailo> Realistically, to have actual usable workflows for next release (at least for audio), it has to be by using jack session software
<ailo> I don't know what dbus can do right now, when it comes to universal session management. Perhaps someone is doing some work on such a piece of software right now? It would be handy for non audio workflows
<ailo> The best would be to combine it all into something almost invisible, so that you just press "save", and whatever you have up is going to reload next time.
<ailo> And surely it's possible, if you code it
<ailo> Until then, I'd go with gladish. And for non-audio workflows, I'd just use documentation (videos would be handy)
<ailo> I could do some examples for audio, using gladish, and documenting both with video and howtos
<ailo> Those could serve as examples possible implementation
<ailo> I'll want to finish the web site first - the feature tour will take a bit of time
<len-dt> ailo, Is there any reason ladish _can't_ do things other audio? At least starting up a group of tools...
<ailo> len-dt: I guess not
<ailo> It's just that it's also used to start/stop jack, which is not called for when doing strictly non-audio workl
<len-dt> I have the gui part of a runlevel switcher just about working. It shows up as an item in the systray the idea being that the icon in the systray changes depending on what mode/runlevel  the user is in.
<len-dt> ailo, Ya, starting jack all the time is not optimal... it could be a pain if the workflow (or background music) was using pulse....
<scott_work> ailo: i'm not sure that jack-session is the right application to use for automation, ladish provides functionality that jack-session doesn't
<scott_work> ailo: i'm not sure what jack-session provides that patchbay doesn't actually, functionality wise that is
<scott_work> i hope to test some of these in the coming weeks and draw a sharp contrast between them
<scott_work> furthermore, i think the ultimate goals of ladish far exceeds the goals of jack-session
<scott_work> len-dt: i'm not sure run levels and modes are the answer, i'm not sure they are not the answer either, but i would really like to run through the strengths and weaknesses of all the various ways we can improve work flows and user experience
<scott_work> len-dt: ailo :  i had also though about a "work flow" app where you would select the work flow (perhaps from a pull down list) and then it shows you each a box for each step of the documented process
<scott_work> not that each step will be used each time, so you don't have to select a particular application for that step, but there will be choices for the steps you do want to perform (i.e. qtractor or ardour for a DAW)
<scott_work> hit the next button and maybe it could allow you to make connection or load a patchbay or template file
<scott_work> it's just an idea, but it would tedious to create all the data files for that for the standard work flows and possible applications
<scott_work> but again, if we started with audio it might be easier to step through it
<scott_work> but it's not THE answer, just a possible answer
<len-dt> scott_work, runlevels are designed to allow different machine configurations. With run levels and upstart/init almost all system side resources can be delt with in one place with one command.
<scott_work> i was given an idea to look into QML and profiles from a guy at UDS
<len-dt> It used to be very common to have runlevel 2 be a text/terminal mode and RL 3 ran X
<scott_work> i haven't a clue what QML and profiles are, but he seemed to think i should know about them
<scott_work> ah, len-dt i am starting to understand that more
<len-dt> To be honest What would be nice would be something to do the same in userland
<scott_work> indeed, it would be possible, but very laborious, to effect a similar thing adjusting menus, desktops, etc
<len-dt> scott_work, there are not that many things to do in userland really, The big thing for tweaking is unbridging PA/jack
<scott_work> i think we should include ardour template for a limited scope of uses as a "hidden" feature
<scott_work> len-dt: you're thinking only of audio, aren't you?
<scott_work> s/template/templates
<len-dt> I am thinking of modes as separate from workflows just now. I would think the templates are a workflow thing.
<len-dt> For video/graphics workflows, a gui that allows a startup button/selection that starts all the apps in a workflow in the right position and right workspace and right screen (if there are more than one) might be a start for this cycle scott_work 
<scott_work> len-dt: please keep in mind we need to be careful about our expectations regarding new applications against a particular cycle
<scott_work> len-dt: even if we had a new application completed right now, there is no guarantee that it would be accepted into the repository in time to ship for this cycle
<scott_work> unless you "hide the weinee" by including new functionality into an existing package,  the application needs to undergo a review, include security i believe
<len-dt> scott_work, Ok, most of this can be done with script though. Using apps that are already in the repo.
<ailo> scott_work: When I was referring to jack session, I meant ladish
<len-dt> ailo, I am somewhat confused about the difference :-/  This is because I haven't got that far to actually use either.
<ailo> I haven't much investigated this either
<scott_work> ailo: ah!
<scott_work> len-dt: ailo: yes! it is confusing. i had a "discussion" (edged towards argument before i cried off) about the two where we each held contradictory ideas about them both
<scott_work> and unfortunately, documentation seems to be horribly scarce regarding jack-session
<ailo> How does it work, when you set the desktop to load the last saved session? Isn't that one way to save workflows? 
<len-dt> scott_work, I had the saem thing with ulatencyd, I commented that I thought the documentation was poor, and got the response back that it seemed like lots. But I guess one has to understand much more kernel stuff than I do.
<ailo> I guess there's one thing that you might not want - having all applications be saved for a session (you might not want to save chat soft, web browser, etc
<len-dt> ailo, yes, but if you have a two part process, tracking and mixdown for example and want to switch between the two it isn't saved
<ailo> len-dt: I meant for non audio software
<scott_work> ailo: interesting, i hadn't thought about that...xubuntu was doing that for me which was kinda frustrating but i never thought about applying to what we are doing
<scott_work> ^ desktop restoring session
<len-dt> If we could "save" more than one setup it would be good.
<scott_work> okay, i gots to go pick up kids and go home
<len-dt> bye.
<scott_work> i'm close to having a computer setup at home that i'll be leaving on all the time with irc on it too
<len-dt> Yea!
<scott_work> i'm toying with using screen and irssi so i can ssh to it from where
<ailo> scott_work: That's what I use
<scott_work> oh...
<ailo> Took a couple of days to get used to
<scott_work> okay, so i need to make sure i have my router forwarding a particular port then
<scott_work> then set up sshd to listen to that port
<ailo> port 22 is default for ssh
<scott_work> set up and understand how to use screen :P
<scott_work> set up and learn how to use irssi :P
<scott_work> then profit!
<scott_work> oh, i mean use it
<scott_work> i think i'm going to start blogging more also :)
<ailo> Learning irssi might take a while, but I could help you with some configs
<ailo> Just to get you started
<ailo> holstein aught to be a wizard at that though
<scott_work> okay, i'm going for reals now  :)
<ailo> I got this done today. https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/audio/
<ailo> Just need to do the same for video and graphics
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-06-02
<ailo> len-dt: I wonder how much one could do to control ladish
<ailo> Might be something worth investigating for your workflow panel app
<len-dt> ailo, Ya, a workflow app needs a rethink. What I had done so far gave a workflow specific menu/panel. I don't think that really is that much of a help beyond the main menu.
<ailo> len-dt: It might be possible to use the same components that Gladish uses, and maybe automate some things a bit more. 
<ailo> It already has all you need to control jack
<ailo> If one would like to be really ambitious, one could incorporate PA as well
<len-dt> Does it control jack better than qjackctl?
<ailo> Don't think it has more features, other than the session part
<ailo> Perhaps it doesn't get the same bug as qjackctl, when stopping jackdbus
<ailo> Need to test it more
<len-dt> It was the bug I was wondering about.
<ailo> For the average user, the control panels are a bit more informative than you'd need them to be
<holstein> ailo: https://staging.ubuntustudio.org/tour/audio/ is very nice!
<ailo> holstein: Thanks. If you find something badly written, or missing, please do tell. I don't really like adding text to pages like that
<len-dt> ailo, from your picture of gladish on that page, it looks like it does some patchage stuff too.
<ailo> len-dt: I would think it's the same code
<ailo> At least I recognize it from a few other apps
<len-dt> same author then?
<len-dt> Maybe same tool kit
<ailo> I think falktx uses that too for one of his apps
<ailo> Generally, starting applications and saving them could be done almost identically to how Gladish does this, but only do it from the panel
<ailo> Just that you can't save the projects that are in use. Only connections for the most part
<ailo> I would prefer another interface for doing jack settings. One which is much easier to read for novice users
<len-dt> Seems more confusing to set up jack.
 * len-dt means more confusing than qjackctl
<ailo> Just a list of settable variables, yeah
<ailo> Would be enough to keep only a few of those visible for a main settings window, and hide the advanced stuff in another tab or whatever. And make sure the user is informed about each setting
<len-dt> ailo, The term room seems to mean something different than I would expect..
<ailo> Er, yeah. I haven't used that yet :P
<ailo> len-dt: You might like to see falktx applications for reference too
<len-dt> Ya he seems to make more use of it than most people.
<ailo> len-dt: http://kxstudio.sourceforge.net/KXStudio:Applications
<ailo> One thing lacking in Ubuntu Studio is vst support
<ailo> Hard to do probably
<ailo> Also, I'm not sure about paths to instruments, and that sort of thing
<len-dt> I have a link to kxstudio in my bookmarks. Some of it installed on this machine.
<ailo> I guess Claudia is the most interesting in this case
<len-dt> ailo, adding applications to ladish seems to require typing in command line stuff. But maybe I can start it from the menu and it would show up.
<ailo> len-dt: Let's say you start an application from your workflow bar. Anything started from there could be started within ladish
<len-dt> Ya they do. seems jack starts up too
<ailo> Can you save them? Let me check. The list doesn't always update, I've notices
<len-dt> I just started jackrack and all the pieces appeared 
<len-dt> PA sure takes up a lot of real estate
<ailo> len-dt: If you start an application normally, it shows up in connections, but you can't save it with the session
<ailo> I do seem to have some bugs
<len-dt> jackdbus is buggy
<ailo> Someone said the new version of qjackctl was still having problems shutting down jackdbus
<len-dt> jack_control does too but because it gets started anew every time it is more resilient.
<ailo> It's a bit of a problem, having jackdbus crash like that
<ailo> Would be nice to have a "killall" button
<ailo> Not nice, but useful
<len-dt> What all would kill?
<len-dt> Just jack?
<ailo> Don't know. In this case everything jack, as well as ladish
<len-dt> and or qjackctl I would guess.
<len-dt> Does the dbus version of jack add that much to things we should even use it?
<ailo> Does ladish work without it?
<len-dt> That I don't know. I think PA's jack sink needs it though.
<len-dt> Ya, dbus is what they all use to "talk" to each other with.
<len-dt> ailo, Ok now both qjackctl and gladish have gone blank on me... not what I want to throw at a new user :/
<ailo> When they crash, it's a bit of a hazzle killing them
<ailo> I killall button could have be set to kill a list of predermined applications, active or not
<ailo> I'm getting a bit tired evidently
<ailo> I wouldn't mind replacing qjackctl with something else. Preferably something that starts out being a kind of hybrid PA/Jack controller, like a simple volume control with a menu (like the current PA volume control)  with a patch bay. But with all the config options hidden deeper in options
<ailo> Well, PA and jack would still need separate patchbays
<len-dt> ailo, qjackctl has no problems at higher latencys
<len-dt> Try it at -p 512
<ailo> I've been using 1024
<len-dt> 1024 was ok too for me. Maybe I didn't cycle it enough
<ailo> But, there's a problem with this machine, using threadirqs. At least I get xruns easily because of it
<len-dt> I was testing at -p 64 before
<ailo> I need to get some sleep. bb in a few hours
<len-dt> k bye
<ailo> I see the need for some kind of general troubleshooting wiki page
<ailo> So, I started one
<ailo> We also need to explain the difference between jackd1, jackd2 and jackdbus, as well as alsa and jack midi
<ailo> All of these things should probably end up in the main web site later, I think
<ailo> So, I've just begun populating this page a bit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/TroubleShooting
<ailo> If we add more stuff, we just categorize it under things like "jack", "midi" or whatever
<ailo> len-dt: Have you had problems with previous kernels?
<ailo> I put together a short guide on how to build the natty, or the oneiric kernel
<ailo> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildOldLowlatency
<ailo> Someone was having some serious raid problems, so he needed to revert back to an older kernel
<ailo> I believe 2.6.38 will outperform any 3.2 kernel
<ailo> Those kernels were tight for audio
<len-dt> ailo, I only really started testing at 11.10. Also I have a simpler setup than most.
<len-dt> ailo, performance doesn't seem to be an issue with our current kernel. I still run out of memory before cpu/kernel time.
<len-dt> ailo, those two trouble shooting tips covers a lot of questions we get.
<len-dt> ailo, weird thing happened just now. started the xfce4-mixer... didn't seem to start... 5 minutes later it showed up.
<ailo> len-dt: I did a lot of testing with 2.6.37-39
<ailo> They were better performing
<ailo> len-dt: But, what I was curious about was if maybe your networking problems might diminish with an older kernel
<ailo> Just for the sake of interest, I'll try the PA jack bridge for this day, using -p 32 to see the difference
<ailo> I'm betting I will have few, if any xruns at all
<len-dt> ailo, actually, the brudge gives me no problems if the internal IF is turned off.
<ailo> len-dt: Well, it does for me
<ailo> With the older kernel
<ailo> I mean, with the newer one
<ailo> It doesn't handle really low latencies
<len-dt> ailo, I should try my USB IF on this machine to see if it does better than -p 64 that it does on my netbook.
<ailo> len-dt: With this older kernel, I do get an occasional xrun with the jack bridge at -p 32, but so far it seems only when I start something, like a new instance of flash player. With the newer kernel, I'd have about the same performance at -p 64, but with more xruns, and more random
<ailo> len-dt: Please do try the older kernel, just for reference
<ailo> I think it would be interesting to see what happens
<len-dt> which PPA?
 * len-dt is still a newby when it comes to setting up odd PPAs and stuff
<ailo> len-dt: No PPA. The guide is for building your own kernel
<ailo> Pretty straight forward. The only part which may need some considering is when you run the command "make oldconfig"
<ailo> The make script creates a new config, based on the old once. There are always diffs between kernel versions, so the configs never match
<ailo> So, you need to answer y/n or m for a lot of config options
<ailo> As I explain in the guide, you probably need to say no to cgroups in the beginning, and it's always good to say no to debug stuff (to reduce latency)
<ailo> For the most part, I didn't read the configs. Just kept pushing Enter (to get the default config)
<ailo> I will add another guide, using a different, more simple way of creating the configs
<ailo> I'll probably want to add some kernels to a PPA too later
<ailo> There's something funny going on with the PA bridge
<ailo> I started getting xruns, but only after a good while of using a PA application
<ailo> Once I stopped the app, no xruns
<ailo> The PA-bridge on the whole time
<ailo> Took about 30 min before I started getting even one xrun
<ailo> A flash video that is about 1h long
<ailo> Anyway, It'll reappear later, when I start doing more systematic testing
<len-dt> ailo, I was going to ask why run a flash video through PA-jack, but I guess firewire stuff still needs that.
<ailo> len-dt: I'm testint the bridge. That is the only reason right now
<ailo> len-dt: Also, why would you not want to do that? If you're using jack and want to watch a flash video at the same time
<ailo> You can answer, well, you'll mess up your recording cause the bridge causes xruns. But, maybe I'm just practicing guitar playing to a youtube video
<ailo> There's no way of guessing what the user will use applications for
<ailo> The only thing that matters is knowing what works and what does not
<ailo> And try to fix the stuff that doesn't
<len-dt> makes sense.
<len-dt> ailo, just install qjackctl  0.3.9 Wiil test. (thanks falktx )
<len-dt> ailo, jackdbus bug still shows up (no surprise)
<ailo> len-dt: Does qjackctl kill jackdbus when that happens?
<len-dt> Let me check
<len-dt> jack_control status returns "stopped"
<len-dt>  So jack stops but does not exit.
<ailo> Can you restart it?
<len-dt> only if I restart qjackctl
<ailo> That's at least some progress
<len-dt> ailo, if I wait till qjackctl is finished as much as it can and kill jack and restart it using jack_control, I don't have to restart qjackctl.
<ailo> len-dt: I'm more concerned about the novice user perspective. If it stops working, and restarting qjackctl is enough, then I don't think the bug is causing too much problems
<len-dt> jacks dbus stuff is flaky
<ailo> Yeah. It's too bad
<ailo> I gotta go. bb later
<len-dt> bye
<ailo> The thing about PA I think is that it syncs with the bridge. Not with jack
<ailo> I'm just guessing, since I don't really know
<ailo> That is how I would have done it anyway
<ailo> PA could have a larger latency to the bridge than jack
<ailo> The bridge itself is a jack app, but PA never becomes one
<ailo> Well, a hybrid
<ailo> At least I'm pretty sure that PA never runs at the same low latencies that jack does
<len-dt> ailo, where is jack setting the latency? Is it internal to jack? or is it an ALSA setting?
<len-dt> That is, I am sure that Jack does not talk to alsa (and therefore the port) once per sample.
<ailo> len-dt: I don't think alsa is a server at all when used with jack, or with PA. PA is a server, jack is a server, alsa is the driver code they use
<ailo> That's my picture of it anyway
<ailo> So, jack sets its' own latency, as does PA
<len-dt> Ok, so doews jack feed audio directly to the hardware? or through ALSA?
<len-dt> The device is generated by ALSA. That is there is no audio device before alsa runs.
<ailo> Alsa is the interface, that jack controls
<len-dt> The device drivers are a part of alsa. So jack sends data to the device through the device driver
<ailo> I feel kind of stupid trying to make sense of this though. Some day I will find out :P
<len-dt> in any case there is no reason that the bridge has to run at jack latency, at least not the whole thing. There has to be a small engine that does, but there could be a biggere buffer behind it that adds as much latency to the signal to make PA happy.
<len-dt> I don't think that happens though. 
 * len-dt fingers fumble worse than his tongue
<len-dt> ailo, I think the buffer is in the alsa hardware driver. Jack just sets the size. That would mean PA has to set the size for its use too. I don't see why it would have to be global though
<len-dt> ailo, on the other hand, it would be intuitive that if the user set jack to low latency that they would "want" anything on the other side of a PA-jack bridge to also be low latency... I'm talking from a PA developers view.
<knome> bleh scott.
<ailo> knome: You miss him?
<knome> ailo, yeah, a lot
<ailo> He's kind of VIP these days
<knome> around where? :P
<ailo> I mean like a special guest, that drops by every now and then :)
<knome> heh. :)
<ailo> He was talking about having a new computer set up soon
<knome> i knew he wasn't important, but not important enough to be here all the time ;)
<ailo> He probably deserves some time off too
<knome> ;)
<ailo> len-dt: I think it would be nice to be able to control PA latency, and maybe it's possible. I only had a quick look at PA configs just a couple of days ago
<ailo> In a way, it's a good thing that you never feel the need to look at configs
<ailo> Should be like that with everything 
<ailo> Just push a button and it's rock'n'roll
<ailo> Phew, going to ride a bicycle 120km tomorrow. I'm worried about my behind getting sore
<ailo> Better get some sleep
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-06-03
<len-dt> Just found another reason to be able to disable PA-jack bridge. 
<len-dt> It sure helps make things cleaner and easier to work with in qjackctl->connect, Patchage and other connection apps
<len-dt> Speaking of which.... There is also a midi "through" port hinging around in the alsa section. Is there a use for this? Or is this one of those things left over from days gone by?
<len-dt> Finally, are there be a meeting this day?
 * len-dt sometimes mangles English on purpose
<len-dt> ailo, between ardour,qjackctl,patchage,jackdbus,PA,a2j,(something using python) and firefox I am using all my memory. The python thing I am not sure where that came from. But it is something to do with the audio stuff because it wasn't there before I started running the audio apps.
<len-dt> Ah, zynjacku is python.
<len-dt> On a low memory system, pulse is a significant memory user and because it is always busy, will never go to swap.
<len-dt> pulse uses more memory than firefox with 10 tabs open, even with flash content.
<holstein> len-dt: is that pulse alone though?
<holstein> i havent done those tests recently.. and addmitedly, the tests i did were not very scientific
<len-dt> holstein, I am looking at "top" which shows a line for pulseaudio that is using 10.9% of my 1Gig.
<holstein> ive been using alsa only on my netbook for over 6 months
<holstein> i find, like with most things, there are advantages to both scenarios
<holstein> thought, there was talk of pulling pulse out of US
<holstein> though*
<len-dt> holstein, pulse is generally well behaved even with bridging.
<holstein> i think pulling pulse is arguably an uncessasary step backward
<holstein> pulse is the future i think
<len-dt> There are some people who need it so they can use apps that rely on pulse with firewire. (I know you have a work around, but others don't)
<holstein> well... i just dont need pulse with FW
<holstein> wouldnt call it a work around :)
<len-dt> Jack is probably going to be around as well. It fills a use that pulse probably never will.
<len-dt> holstein, you did actually :-)
<holstein> maybe the analog cable trick ;)
<len-dt> Anyway, PA needs to stay. stopping and starting while having respawn when needed would be nice.
<holstein> agreed... 
<len-dt> Bridging seems to lock jack to the internal card's min latency...
<len-dt> holstein, on my netbook, the internal IF has minimum late of 128 but the USB can do 64. However if PA-jack bridging is set up even with pulse having the internal card "off", I can only get latency of 128.
<holstein> interesting....
<holstein> so much to learn and test
<holstein> more and more questions
<len-dt> I'm getting tired of it :/
<holstein> hehe
<len-dt> I have found a way to get really solid performace out of the netbook though
<holstein> well, i appreciate your time here
<holstein> i understand frustrations as well :)
<len-dt> I have runlevel 3 set up for no cron, no wireless and cpu governer at "performance"
<holstein> yeah... i havent tweaked that much other than on my studio desktop rig
<holstein> those little tweaks make a difference though
<holstein> OK... BBL
<len-dt> I also turn PA-jack bridging off, but it seems removing PA from memory would be better.
<len-dt> k
<len-dt> The webpage says meeting every first Sunday of the month... the "next" one being 5 pm (17:00) UTC February 19th 2012...
<len-dt> Guess it doesn't matter, it is 15:14UTC now... I won't be here in two hours... works in the winter though.
<ailo> len-dt: 05:16 < len-dt> holstein, on my netbook, the internal IF has minimum late of 128 but the USB can do 64. However if PA-jack bridging is set up even with pulse having the internal card "off", I can only get  latency of 128.
<ailo> This only happens to AFAIK
<ailo> So, not a general thing
<ailo> Do you mean you cannot start your USB with 64?
<ailo> Or you just get a lot of xruns?
<ailo> (I'm beat. Going to sleep already..)
<ailo> len-dt: Also, I think just using Firefox is problematic enough. For audio, depending on what you do you can use really small amounts of RAM, and the desktop could be really slimmed down, but as soon as you need a modern web browser, you're screwed memory wise
<ailo> I think 2GB is barely enough
<len-dt> ailo, pulse was using more than firefox... I am not suggesting that firefox be let run while doing audio though :-)
<len-dt> However, if firefox is "problematic" then so is PA.
<len-dt> I am actually looking for more memory for my system(s) and it looks like 2Gig (even on my "modern" netbook) may be the max I can use.
<len-dt> Certainly a netbook should not be put forward as a good system to run audio on, but there are MBs for desktops that use the same chipset that people do buy just for audio because they can run without a fan.(see the LAU mail list)
<len-dt> So being able to run US in a memory slim mode would be useful in that case.
<len-dt> The netbook, while not a good audio machine, could be good for remote recording. It has the power and memory (even with the stock 1Gig) to record 8 tracks to disk on the road (maybe more). It could be used for guitar effects (live) or even as a softsynth (well I haven't tried a USB midi IF...)
<len-dt> I think it is worth while documenting what things can be done to slim memory down to make these things workable.
<len-dt> An app that does this with one click is a bonus.
 * len-dt is heading off to go play.
<len-dt> ailo, I mean that with the PA-jack bridge running I can not even start the external IF at less than 128. With the bridge off it starts fine and has no xruns.
<len-dt> s/fine/at 64 fine/
<kubotu> len-dt meant: "ailo, I mean that with the PA-jack bridge running I can not even start the external IF at less than 128. With the bridge off it starts at 64 fine and has no xruns."
<len-dt> ailo, There is some discussion on the LAU list that seems tied to our dbus-jack problems (jack can't be stopped with qjackctl)
<len-dt> The message of interest came out at 13:52 PST(-0800)
<len-dt> There have been some days of discussion though it didn't look like the same problem at first. look for the topic "jack2 turned verbose"
<len-dt> ailo, I should have said Sunday june 3
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-27
<OvenWerks> zequence: well upgrade from 12.04 to 10 was fine. publishing and photography metas missing, which means just publishing app wise
<OvenWerks> upgrade to R next.
<OvenWerks>  
<OvenWerks> zequence: Upgrade from q to r adds generic
<OvenWerks> (updates low-latency as well at least)
<OvenWerks> Icon theme is wrong too... not much we can do about that.
<OvenWerks> Backdrop doesn't change either, of course
<zequence-s> Seems like gnome got updated, so perhaps it will be working now. I'm just updating now
<ttoine> hey
<DarkEra> hi guys
<madeinkobaia> Hi DarkaEra : )
<madeinkobaia> Ops "DarkEra" 
<zequence> DarkEra: Hi. I just tried the latest Gnome 3.8 today on Ubuntu Gnome. Still not working. Really weird
<DarkEra> hi there madeinkobaia :)
<DarkEra> zequence, bummer.... i wonder what's wrong
<madeinkobaia> :)
<DarkEra> has smartboyhw been around by the way?
<zequence> smartboyhw will be gone for a couple of weeks
<zequence> He's busy with school now
<DarkEra> i see, thanks for the headsup
<DarkEra> i'll be back later or tomorrow, going to work a bit on my track
<madeinkobaia> See you guys :)
<OvenWerks> zequence: wrote some replies to Luke from DC. Feel free to correct anything I said.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I replied already. But I had also replied to Luke before that as well
<OvenWerks> I would suggest a different xdg subdir for each DE settings
<zequence> We'll get to that eventually
<zequence> First things first
<zequence> Did you read my reply before you replied? Kind of seems like you doubled some stuff there
<OvenWerks> Ya probably, just trying to be complete I think
<OvenWerks> The menu stuff is not ready for other DEs just yet
<zequence> I wouldn't want to confuse the guy
<zequence> He doesn't have an idea about any of this stuff yet
<OvenWerks> The icon stuff either
<OvenWerks> Ya, but he needs to know right off he has to look for system stuff, not user directory files.
<zequence> No hurry with theming. We can do that later, once we've even decided if we are to use metas for different DEs
<zequence> If you had read my reply, you would have seen I already discussed that
<OvenWerks> I would like to see some themeing even in a studio dropped on top of an already installed DE
<zequence> Currently, we don't have a Ubuntu Studio theme
<zequence> We would need to create one first
<OvenWerks> Ya.
<zequence> That's a goal for 14.04, more than for 13.10. Will take some time to get done
<OvenWerks> I think I meant theme as in a background and other artwork
<zequence> Currently, none of the people involved do that much desktop theming
<zequence> Well, once we've devide we even want to use metas, we can look at putting the details right
<zequence> Right now, I'm only working on preparing a meta with Luke
<OvenWerks> zequence:  I will work from the other end with kubuntu.
<OvenWerks> That being, taking an installed kubuntu and making a KubuntuStudio
<zequence> OvenWerks: Don't worry about realtime privilege for now though. If you want to look at the menu stuff, that would be great
<zequence> OvenWerks: I still prefer we focus on getting changes upstream, so that creating these custom menus would be easier
<OvenWerks> I will have the menu stuff set up to work with any xdg compliant menu
<OvenWerks> There will be less layout stuff and rely more on the default layout except for the Studio part.
<OvenWerks> I can replace graphics, video, multi-media with our own version and workflows, but the rest will be stock.
<zequence> Installing a Debian server. experimenting with encrypted drives. Took me more than 12h to write over a 400GB drive (let's hope this install doesn't fail then)
<zequence> Trying to get EFI to work also
<OvenWerks> I might need to make more than one desktop item for some of the ubuntustudio help items that start a browser etc.
<OvenWerks> Wow! I am not in need of encryped drives right now.
<OvenWerks> zequence: we may be better off using xdg-open over exo-open in our US help submenu
<OvenWerks> I think it ships with most other DEs, exo-open is not in KDE for example.
<zequence> OvenWerks: I don't have much insight into the problems with a generic Ubuntu Studio menu. But, if you like, once you've gone through enough to get an idea of some options, try to sum it up as concretely and shortly as possible in a mail. I think that would be the most constructive way to go forward 
<zequence> For as long as I'm not involved in that (and I'm currently too busy), I can't really add much input. But, if you can sketch the problem up in a mail, in a comprehensive way, it'll give me a much better chance to see what the sitation is
<zequence> I think the key is to focus on as few details as possible
<zequence> At the time, taht is
<OvenWerks> OK.
<zequence> wow, I got efi to work finally
<OvenWerks> Quick question about Bug 1179083
<ubottu> bug 1179083 in ubuntustudio-meta (Ubuntu) "ubuntustudio-audio failed to upgrade from 10.04 to precise" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1179083
<OvenWerks> I think we have documentation some where that upgrade to 12.04 is not supported
<OvenWerks> If I can find the web page, I can close the bug with a pointer to tha page.
<OvenWerks> found it.
<zequence> really? not for any flavor?
<OvenWerks> Just US. There were too many changes with the DE
<OvenWerks> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/12.04release_notes#Upgrading_from_Ubuntu_Studio_10.04_LTS_to_Ubuntu_Studio_12.04_LTS
<zequence> Yes, kind of makes sense
<OvenWerks> I remember Scott adding that
<OvenWerks> I have now marked the bug invalid
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-28
<OvenWerks> Hmm, this is less than good.... KDE with the US metas added and low latency Kernel seems to perform better.
<OvenWerks> (than a ubuntustudio install with xfce)
<OvenWerks> zequence: remember talking about smooth video on my old graphics card? Videos are fine on KDE and skip in US.
<OvenWerks> same kernel, same video, same player
<zequence> exit
<zequence> oh, that old error
<zequence> OvenWerks: We need to remove theming entirely from ubuntustudio-default-settings. It's not the place for that
<zequence> Actually, I'm wondering about a lot of the dependencies for it
<zequence> We need to revive a ubuntustudio theme package
<OvenWerks> zequence: I am working on menu and icons first.
<OvenWerks> All we do in settings is to set the default theme
<OvenWerks> separation of packages is becoming more inportant as we work with more than one DE
<zequence> OvenWerks: The default theme is not someting that belongs in settings
<zequence> And, that is not what settings is for
<zequence> At least it didn't use to be, as far as I can recall
<zequence> Ah, never mind
<zequence> Maybe I just remember wrong
<zequence> It's good that there's no conflict between the different flavors, as it seems, since they all have their own sessions
<zequence> It would be nice if we could add our specific stuff to existing DE sessions without conflicting with them
<OvenWerks> zequence: I think we are agreeing in different words :)
<OvenWerks> A theme itself should not be in settings. A theme package should not make itself default (I don't think) maybe it could ask the installing user if they would like that.
<OvenWerks> If a distro wants a theme to be the default on install, I don't know where else that info would go besides settings
<OvenWerks> zequence: Dumb question... icons that are to be installed in "hicolor" to make our menus work are not really part of the US icon theme, should they instead be put in the -menu package?
<OvenWerks> zequence: my thought is that installing the US-menu package should give a working menu with all needed icons, desktop files and directory files
<OvenWerks> This also leaves Mish (or whoever) free to change the icon package without breaking anything.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-29
<zequence> OvenWerks: No, icons go with icons. If there's a problemw with how the menu works, I'd rather fix it upstream
<zequence> Sorry to be repetetive on that, and it's perhaps not the time to do that actively
<zequence> But, that should be the goal
<zequence> Ah, PA just got into -proposed
<zequence> So, time to test it, and give it the green flag
<zequence> Luke is a ubuntustudio-contributor now
<OvenWerks> zequence: so ardour should have their icon included in gnome-icons?
<OvenWerks> An apps icons go in the apps package. The studio menu is like an app and should include it's own icons, needed to make it work.
<OvenWerks> An icon theme is something that can be switched in an out
<OvenWerks> an apps icons are there by default.
<OvenWerks> Any icons that belong in /usr/share/icons/hicolor belong in the package of the app that uses them
<OvenWerks> Our workflow menu merge should continue to work even if the user chooses another icon theme
<OvenWerks> This becomes important when adding studio to another flavour.
<zequence> We aren't shipping an app
<OvenWerks> My sense is that gnome-icons should already have the icons we need, upstream. But our menu should not depend on a theme.
<OvenWerks> our menu is the same kind of thing.
<zequence> We're customizing the menu, which IMO, we should do as little as possible
<OvenWerks> If I am running KDE and install some studio metas and want the studio menu, I should not have to load US-icon_theme to make it work
<zequence> The settings depend on the icons
<OvenWerks> Nor should the user need to select the US theme
<zequence> No, they shouldn't
<zequence> It's a flaw
<OvenWerks> Right
<zequence> IMO
<OvenWerks> The way to fix the flaw is to include the needed icons with the menu.
<zequence> Or, to redesign the menu, so it works with upstream
<zequence> Or, develop a standalone package that is called ubuntustudio-menu
<OvenWerks> That is the same as using the stock menu
<OvenWerks> That is what I am doing
<OvenWerks> There is already a package with that name
<zequence> I know
<OvenWerks> I have already started fixing it.
<zequence> Have you thought about how you could push changes upstream yet?
<zequence> And which changes would be relevant upstream
<OvenWerks> First would be to get the extra categories
<zequence> I suppose it might prove best to make all DEs work first, with as much generic work as possible
<OvenWerks> I think the sub menus we have could make sense in any distro dedicated to these workflows or even only one of them.
<zequence> I'd really appreciate if you could find solutions that work on all DEs
<zequence> Not all DEs use menus
<OvenWerks> That is exactly my plan
<OvenWerks> I understand that. 
<zequence> What unites all DEs are the categories
<zequence> You know better than me, what unites the menu based DEs
<OvenWerks> But those that do have a standard and a menu that merges fixes those at least.
<OvenWerks> We could (it would be a lot of work) make a whole new set of desktop files too.
<zequence> You mean for all the different applications?
<OvenWerks> All the apps in our workflows... No I am not volumteering :)
<zequence> It will need to be done
<zequence> I can work on that, from Debian
<OvenWerks> upstream would be better
<OvenWerks> It would allow oru menus to be less custom too
<OvenWerks> s/oru/our
<zequence> Then it's the best path
<OvenWerks> The parts of our menu that require heavy customization are done.
<zequence> The XFCE menu, or the menus for all DEs?
<OvenWerks> For all xdg compliant menus
<OvenWerks> I have it working on KDE here
<OvenWerks> I have a lubuntu copy I will try it on too
<OvenWerks> Because it is a small menu on it's own, it could also be used on it's own on a menuless desktop as well
<OvenWerks> using one of the many small pannels for example
<OvenWerks> I don't know if that is a good idea or not though
<zequence> I can have a quick test with lxde and also cinnamon to see how it works
<OvenWerks> That is why I want to have a package
<OvenWerks> installing a list of files manually is no fun.
<zequence> It would be better in deed to have the menu on its own
<OvenWerks> My plan is to be able to leave the stock menu in any DE alone and just add our workflows
<OvenWerks> In the same way wine adds their little menu.
<OvenWerks> It would mean loosing anything I have done on settings, and the set of apps at the top of our xfce menu... but it means less up keep.
<OvenWerks> I think one of the things xfce has been working has been cleaning settings up anyway.
<zequence> PA checks out. I gave it the green flag. Hopefully it'll be in -updates within the week
<OvenWerks> Or we can use xubuntu's menu
<OvenWerks> is that for 12.04
<OvenWerks> ?
<zequence> 12.04 and 12.10
<OvenWerks> good
<OvenWerks> zequence: when It is easy to install our metas with the other flavours, I would like to do some performance testing and comparing.
<zequence> Let's make sure the categories are really well though out in a couple of months, and I can do the work on changing the desktop files upstream
<OvenWerks> So far, on this machine, KDE (kubuntu) does better than the studio ISO
<zequence> That might be interesting for the people with older machines, so perhaps start a wiki page about that. Would be best to get more machines involved in testing too before release, on that particular subject
<zequence> If we find that one DE is best for older machines, it could be recommended
<zequence> Or, a set of DEs
<OvenWerks> Ya, one would expect lxde to be best for that, but I will see.
<OvenWerks> is zeinty common to all the flavours?
<zequence> What's that?
<OvenWerks> I am thinking of using it to make a studio meta installer.
<OvenWerks> it is a dialog tool for scripting.
<OvenWerks> like xmessage, but with more options.
<zequence> I'd like to see what it is before you do any actual work on that
<OvenWerks> It doesn't need extra libs like python does.
<zequence> The choice of tools should be something that works best with the Debian installation
<zequence> Could be just a simple bash script
<OvenWerks> I am doing it for my use. If you like it I have no problem with it being used else where
<OvenWerks> I am realizing testing would be so much easier If I have a tool.
<OvenWerks> I have found out that kubuntu has their whole own section of ubiquity and the distro upgrader with non-gtk libs.
<OvenWerks> I don't want to follow that.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/DesktopEnvironmentTesting
<OvenWerks> I don't want to load extra gtk libs on a kde system either... though I guess some of our apps will anyway.
<OvenWerks> OK, That is the place to add results and things to test.
<zequence> Time for breakfest, and then school.
<OvenWerks> Enjoy
<OvenWerks> zequence: on Kubuntu, pulse seems to do an auto fallover to jack sink if the defaukt is busy... or maybe just because jacksink is there. It pops a notice up with an option to decline that action. Nice.
<zequence> Someone doing a Strokes cover using Ubuntu Studio https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxieG2YXczk
<zequence> He's done a few covers like that
<holstein> i was thinking some kind of cover page ;)
<holstein> nice video work too
<zequence> I suppose Ubuntu Studio would work for that too
<zequence> This one was cool. Too bad about the xruns. Guess he didn't have any decent kernel (if he wasn't using a PPA) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfiU6fCo48Q
<zequence> I have to try using a vocoder some time
<zequence> A bit nostalgic now to see the old Gnome2 desktop with the old theme
<holstein> i know
<zequence> There's an autogenerated channel for Ubuntu Studio here https://www.youtube.com/channel/HCkGK6Zv5-b0I/feed?filter=2
<zequence> I'm setting up a channel for us, as soon as I get ownership of the G+ page, which I want to link it to
<zequence> Would be good to do a couple of videos ourselves
<holstein> yup.. tutorials
<zequence> OvenWerks: I would think pulseaudio works the same way on all DEs
<zequence> Just that KDE has different gui controls for it
<holstein> i have to say, i havent upgraded my studio machine since i installed it
<holstein> i figured, what the hey.. i bet its OK now to just upgrade
<holstein> i will go back to *never* upgrading my studio production machine again
<holstein> i mean, dont get me wrong, im sure its an nvidia thing.. but still.. its a drag
<zequence> holstein: What happened?
<zequence> a studio machine that works, I never upgrade either
<holstein> well, i rebooted into only one screen of my dual head.. with just half a panel
<holstein> i went and setup nvidia settings again, and i have the dual head again.. but one monitor is half the resolution it was before
<holstein> so, i most recently tried using the line from the old xorg with the resolutions in the newer one.. and now, i just have the boot logo stuck on both screens
<holstein> i tried booting an older kernel... i suppose i can downgrade the nvidia driver
<holstein> i like the "appliance" approach
<holstein> i thought the newer kernel might be "better" or something
<holstein> at least i did it *after* getting some work done
<zequence> those kernels have pretty big changelogs, and you rarely see that much fixes done to any piece of software in such a short time
<holstein> thats why i thought booting the older kernel would "fix" it
<zequence> But, who benefits? Hard to say. Should not cause nvidia regressions though
<holstein> tbh, ive *always* had issues like this with dual head on the studio machin
<holstein> machine
<holstein> intel.. amd.. whatever
<holstein> i just got in the habit of not upgrading
<holstein> and, i just remembered why ;)
<OvenWerks> holstein: hard drives are cheap. I buy a new one for the new install. I have three versions of ubuntustudio on different drives.
<holstein> OvenWerks: oh, i have 3 installs on here
<holstein> the 10.04 ubuntustudio, a testing partition, and my 12.04 production area.. which is the one that i "broke"
<holstein> i added a ppa to try newer versions of nvidia
<holstein> i'll just get a knoppix live CD and use it to create the resolution
<holstein> i just shouldnt have to
<OvenWerks> Ya, I have been surprised that kubuntu seems to run better than our own xfce
<holstein> i hope this is not DE releaste.. i didnt even think about that
<OvenWerks> Video in particular
<holstein> related*
<holstein> yeah, it would be nice to get falk in here and do the KDE stuff
<OvenWerks> I am not so sure.
<OvenWerks> KDE runs with our metas pretty good as is.
<OvenWerks> I want to try doing the same with xubuntu, to see if it is the same if that runs better then some of our system settings are off
<holstein> lol
<holstein> that would be interesting
<holstein> to say the least
<OvenWerks> Sometimes settings that work with one kernel (I think we tried them at 3.1 or 3.5) don't work so well with another
<holstein> i know, but i booted my older kernel and tested
<holstein> its odd
<holstein> its like the nvidia driver negated the resolution i need
<holstein> and, it *was* running on there
<OvenWerks> holstein: in case you missed it, I am working on a menu that should work with any DE (that is xdg compliant). With the idea that a user could just install some metas on top of any Ubuntu flavour and go.
<holstein> OvenWerks: i think thats a great idea
<holstein> OvenWerks: let me know if i can test it somewhere.. mabye openbox/lxde
<OvenWerks> I am pretty sure I could do that with KDE, xfce, lxde etc. Gnome session should work but the menu may not show same with unity.
<OvenWerks> (I have it working with KDE now, but it was a manual install)
<OvenWerks> Luke is working on Cinnamon as well
<madeinkobaia> For those who's on board, I salute you : )
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-30
<OvenWerks> zequence: loading ubuntustudio metas to lubuntu pulls in a lot of libs.
<OvenWerks> lubuntu does n't have PA by default... US metas add it though :)
<OvenWerks> However I don't think it would run by default. The user would have to add it to the auto start list on their own
<OvenWerks> Weird, when I installed lubuntu, I told it to put grub on /sdc, but when I installed the lowlatency kernel, it put grub somewhere else. (sda?)
<OvenWerks> on reboot, pulse runs with session. So installing the US metas makes pulse the sound server if the user wants it or not :P
<OvenWerks> Ack. Pulse gets installed and runs... but no pavucontrol.
<OvenWerks> zequence: with reguard to jerky and smooth video.
<OvenWerks> I had mentioned that US seemed to be jerky and KDE was not.
<OvenWerks> Did some further testing. Lubuntu is fine, a fresh install of US 13.10 is fine too. The one that is bad is the P install, updated to Q then to R. I don't know if upgrading to S would fix anything though.
<OvenWerks> Tomorrow I will try upgrading this to S and see if it gets any better.
<OvenWerks> All tests were with a 3.8.0 kernel, lowlatency, same video app, same video.
<OvenWerks> Hang on... this is weird. my 12.04 that was upgraded to 13.04 has 3.8.0-22 but all the 13.10 installs have 3.8.0-19
<OvenWerks> The generic kernel for 13.10 is 3.9.0-2 BTW
<OvenWerks> Something is strange with our kernels.
<OvenWerks> We seem to have gone back a few kernels for Saucy
<OvenWerks> I guess I will also have to try a straight up Raring install as well.
<OvenWerks> holstein: ^^^ it looks like the performance problems are upgrade related or one version of the kernel.
<zequence> OvenWerks: saucy doesn't have SRU updates for the kernel
<zequence> OvenWerks: Currently, no one is maintaining the development release of the kernel for saucy
<zequence> It's updated a little now and then
<zequence> I'm overtaking maintanenace of it this cycle
<zequence> OvenWerks: And about jerky video - it makes little sense comparing different DEs on different releases, don't you think?
<zequence> And also, if one really wants to find out difference in performance, make a comprehensive test, perform it, gather data - then decide what is actually going on
<zequence> Things that happen on one machine is not saying much in any case
<zequence> besides, saucy should be using 3.9 by now
<madeinkobaia> Hi all : )
<OvenWerks> zequence: I thought it was the same kernel, but it is not. Most of my tests were same release. All of the 13.10 installs work fine (including ubuntustudio) which makes sense.
<OvenWerks> I have heard other complaints about 3.8 as well.
<OvenWerks> So, I will try on the bad install, installing the older kernel that Saucy installs. I will try upgrading to 13.10. I will try a new raring install.
<OvenWerks> If I get the same thing just with R or just with that kernel, Fine. It is easy enough to avoid one kernel.... and Saucy seems to be fine.
<OvenWerks> The big thing I have learned is that DE makes not much difference. I think the KDE devs have done some work since I last used it. Good stuff.
<OvenWerks> I really would like to try Gnome shell as well, if I can get it to run... even if I have to tweak it a bit before I can login.
<zequence> My experience is the same. DE doesn't matter much for performance. Nothing does, except kernel and certain drivers. Like the graphic driver.
<zequence> Bloated desktop, or minimal. Not much of a difference
<zequence> And that's a good thing
<zequence> Cause, that means, there's not much you need to do in order to tune a system for low latency
<zequence> Of course, CPU usage might be worse on bloated desktos
<zequence> But, it won't cause xruns, until you maximize CPU usage
<zequence> rt is rt
<OvenWerks> Right
<zequence> For someone who wants to install a system for a very specific use case, like a studio recording/mixing system, then there might be cause for wanting to customize it
<zequence> or a live processing system
<OvenWerks> Are we expecting a 3.9 LL kernel for 13.10?
<zequence> I don't know what version will be final release. Maybe 3.10. I will be taking over maintenance soon though
<OvenWerks> (generic is 3.9 just now.)
<OvenWerks> Ah, I had heard about some changes to how HW is handled as of 3.9
<zequence> A new kernel version is released about every 3 months
<OvenWerks> But I have had no trouble.
<zequence> Usually, Ubuntu goes with whatever is the latest stable bversion
<zequence> 3.10 is RC right now
<zequence> Once it's released, it'll end up in Ubuntu tooo
<zequence> So, 13.10 might even be including 3.11 by final release
<OvenWerks> OK
<zequence> The vanilla 3.8 kernel has now reached EOLÃ
<zequence> EOL*
<OvenWerks> That will make some people in the audio world happy.
<zequence> You can see the current kernels here https://www.kernel.org/
<OvenWerks> Looking at lubuntu, I think adding Studio to it will make it a lot less "light"/"Lite"
<OvenWerks> Lubuntu relies on having light applications as well as the desktop.
<OvenWerks> I think that there may be some audio workflows where it will fit, but suspect some video workflows will not gain anything.
<zequence> I'm not aware of any other processes that would be added to Lubuntu, except pulseaudio
<zequence> libraries yes, but processes and services that would start when you boot the system
<OvenWerks> I have found that when I start kdenlive it starts a number of KDE services. They do not stop when kdenlive stops.
<OvenWerks> This is true in xfce as well
<OvenWerks> I don't know that this is a problem or not.
<OvenWerks> I kind of expect that someone who likes kdenlive might also like the KDE desktop.
<zequence> I'm sure the number of processes could increase, if you start up a whole range of applications. But, there's no way around that. If you just use LXDE, and Kdenlive, then that's what will happen. 
<zequence> Why?
<zequence> kdenlive is one of the most popular video editors on Linux, and doesn't stop people from installing it, who have no interest in KDE
<OvenWerks> More a matter of recomending a good install for any given workflow
<zequence> OvenWerks: Are you about to rank applications now?
<OvenWerks> No :)
<zequence> After a set of rules you put up, on performance, usability, etc
<zequence> Adding the studio metas won't make any system less minimal. Aside from if you think PA is breaking that. This is at least my estimation so far. 
<zequence> What we could do however, is allow for the user to select metas during installation
<zequence> And for audio, we should have a core meta too
<OvenWerks> I think people buy machines based on what they want to do with them. Someone who feels they "require" a light system is not likely to do video editing.
<zequence> One which only includes linux-lowlatency and jack, basically
<OvenWerks> Having a meta that has lowlatency would be good.
<zequence> We already have the meta linux-lowlatency
<OvenWerks> It would be nice if it adds a rule to grub to default to that kernel too.
<zequence> But, I mean, for the core audio components
<OvenWerks> Ya, I don't know if there are any other of our workflows that need it.
<zequence> So that when you install, you can decide not to install the whole range of applications, if you don't want them
<OvenWerks> If we are adding Studio to another install, that should be automatic.
<zequence> I'm not following..
<OvenWerks> Making it work with our iso and still allowing the live session to showcase all the workflows might be harder.
<OvenWerks> If someone installs Ubuntu desktop and then installs our metas, they will only install the metas they want. So that part sortself out.
<OvenWerks> *sorts itself
<zequence> Yeah, that's why we have them split
<zequence> Otherwise, we would just have had a meta called "ubuntustudio"
<OvenWerks> Right.
<OvenWerks> To work with the live ISO, we have to tell the seeds to show everything in the live session but not install it all. Which we can do. But then to select a workflow to install there needs to be some way of changing the stuff that will install, or include extra packages for later instalation.
<zequence> Yes, we need to do some ubiquity coding for that. python scripting
<zequence> It's been a plan since last release, to add the meta options
<zequence> I'm going to have a look at that later on
<OvenWerks> Talked about since the first live ISO
<zequence> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-s-installer
<OvenWerks> I have learned a little python... enough I can make something that works, but not enough to take something already made and understand what the other dev was doing and how I can change it.
<OvenWerks> What they call "enough to be dangerous".
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I am going to boot to 3.8.0-19 on this machine to see if that makes any difference.
<zequence> I like that saying. We should all know enough to be dangerous
<OvenWerks> moving back to the 3.8.0-19 kernel did not improve things.
<OvenWerks> I am either seeing a raring problem or an upgrade problem.
<OvenWerks> I will see if upgrading to saucy still adds a generic kernel while I am at it.
<OvenWerks> Yes it will.
<DarkEra> i removed those generic kernels but didn't have the time to check in again for updates
<OvenWerks> From what I have seen, the generics kernel just shows up when upgrading.
<OvenWerks> I have never had one show up on me when doing a fresh install
<DarkEra> so a upgrade from raring to saucy causes it then
<OvenWerks> yes.
<OvenWerks> upgrade from precise to quantal does not
<OvenWerks> upgrade from quantal to raring does
<OvenWerks> and from raring to saucy does
<OvenWerks> Something has changed in the upgrade script or in one of the depends in a package we depend on.
<OvenWerks> We must have done something in our metas to stop it showing up on the ISO though.
<OvenWerks> But I don't see it black listed
<OvenWerks> we should be able to go through the changes made to the upgrade script/settings during quantal.
<zequence> http://www.linux.com/news/featured-blogs/200-libby-clark/721494-linux-thermal-daemon-monitors-and-controls-temperature-in-tablets-laptops
<OvenWerks> sounds great.
<OvenWerks> over heated GPUs is supposedly the biggest kill in those.
<OvenWerks> A popup notice: "vacuum out your machine dummy" might help too.
<zequence> manufacturers could make that a lot easier too
<OvenWerks> might sell less
<zequence> Some laptops, if you want to clean them from dust, you have to open the whole thing. And, it's not usually an easy thing to do
<zequence> I have one, where I just need to open a section
<zequence> One could even create a module for just the dust. Open this, clean it, close it.
<DarkEra> i my case i need to open the bottom panel entirely
<zequence> If you ask me, most engineers and designers are pretty mediocre, and lazy
<zequence> Or, their bosses are less than smart
<DarkEra> possibly :D
<DarkEra> i hope this laptop continues to work for a few more years, i bought it somewhere in june 2008
<OvenWerks> mine is from 2010 or so. First install was 10.04
<DarkEra> first install on this machine was 8.04
<DarkEra> on the packard bell i had i started with 7.04
<DarkEra> that laptop died after 3 years
<DarkEra> bought it in 2005
<OvenWerks> I still have an NEC from pre2000, pentium 360mhz
<OvenWerks> Works as good as it ever did
<DarkEra> cool :)
<OvenWerks> Battery is long gone of course.
<OvenWerks> Has an opening on the side for a thing called a "floppy"
<DarkEra> i worked with floppies on school in the '90s
<OvenWerks> I still remember installing an OS from a scack of floppies.
<OvenWerks> *stack
<OvenWerks> 6 for DRdos
<OvenWerks> zequence: my video problems seem to be upgrade related
<OvenWerks> If I install Saucy from ISO, video is fine.
<OvenWerks> If I upgrade there, no good
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-05-31
<zequence> just accidentally deleted all my audio files
<zequence> lost some stuff I actually didn't want to loose
<zequence> kind of like deleting stuff. always makes me feel good, even when I'm not supposed to do it
<DarkEra> good afternoon all
<madeinkobaia> Hi DarkEra : )
<DarkEra> heya madeinkobaia :)
<madeinkobaia> Its been a while !
<DarkEra> well, i've been around but a while since we talked
<DarkEra> how are you doing?
<madeinkobaia> Fine, like the weather today : )
<DarkEra> that's great :)
<DarkEra> weather is fine but i can't go outside for 10 hours
<DarkEra> i have psoriasis and the treatment started last wednesday
<DarkEra> it takes up to 10 hours before the medication is out of the body again. So i have to avoid sunlight
<madeinkobaia> Damn : (
<OvenWerks> That would have me off work.
<DarkEra> hi there OvenWerks :)
<OvenWerks> o/
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, it's a treatment that takes up to 5 weeks, 3 times a week
<madeinkobaia> DarkEra : Ok, wish you the patience. 
<madeinkobaia> Hi OwenWerks : )
<OvenWerks> hi
<DarkEra> thanks
<madeinkobaia> DarkEra : I listened your music (regarding the link you sent me) , thats well done, now as its not my kind of music, can't really give you a precise opinion.
<madeinkobaia> OwenWerks : You playing or composing also music ?
<OvenWerks> Composing? I would not say that, writing maybe.
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, thanks for the compliment. I know it's not every ones cup of tea but i like Enigma a lot and got influenced by Michael Cretu a lot doing my own style :)
<madeinkobaia> DarkEra : I don't know Michael Cretu, will check that...
<OvenWerks> I play whatever style happens to be going, but mostly write more folky stuff
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, he was married to Sandra who was a 80's icon in the German pop music
<DarkEra> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cretu
<madeinkobaia> OwenWerks : Great, so we're mostly all musicians or composer here : )
<DarkEra> The Enigma project started in the 90's and had a smash hit with Sadeness (Part 1)
<madeinkobaia> DarkEra : Yep, I place him now in the tree of music history :P
<OvenWerks> Ya, what we need most are people who are strong in video, graphics photography and publishing
<OvenWerks> Even just one person for each.
<madeinkobaia> OvenWerks : Your truth, by my self I will do my best for expand our graphics side.
<madeinkobaia> OwenWerks : About video, smartboyhw have a good knowledge on it, no ?
<OvenWerks> There is really no one who breaths video.
<OvenWerks> Who does video for a living on Linux
<OvenWerks> Or at least makes a pretty ful time hobby of it
<madeinkobaia> OvenWerks : Ok, so we need to find someone. Could try to search on Linux video related blogs.
<OvenWerks> The nice thing about audio is that there are a lot of professional musicians using these tools, so advice is easy to find. There are a few photographers going all Linux too.
<OvenWerks> Some graphic artists.
<madeinkobaia> OvenWerks : I am supposed to manage this part ( I mean the graphic side) :P
<OvenWerks> Yup.
<madeinkobaia> OwenWerks : Did you checked my graphics homepage ?
<OvenWerks> The thing ig, from what I can tell, audio is the one thing that uses a lot of apps all at the same time, special kernels and so people look for an audio distro. A lot of the other work flows just use a few apps an load them on whatever distro they happen to like.
<OvenWerks> I have not seen your page.
 * OvenWerks has to wake up the kids
 * DarkEra wishes his kids were a bit more quiet for a while
<madeinkobaia> OwenWerks : Ok, here is the link, check my works when you have the time : http://madeinkobaia.deviantart.com/
<OvenWerks> Thanks.
<DarkEra> i bookmark that now :)
<madeinkobaia> 8-) Thanks DarkEra.
<OvenWerks> I am off to work now
<DarkEra> ok OvenWerks chat you later :)
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, my goodness that's some awesome work you have there
<madeinkobaia> Hi DarkEra, sorry was out. Thanks a lot ^^
<DarkEra> no problem and you're welcome :)
<madeinkobaia> :)
<DarkEra> i'm actually looking for someone who's willing to create a albumcover for my Back Then EP that i uploaded on soundcloud and maybe a (HD) wallpaper for the laptop with my artist name in it.
<DarkEra> i can do some things with Gimp but i'm not that good :)
<madeinkobaia> I could do that with pleasure, but not for the moment, I am really busy.
<DarkEra> it should be something the represents/reflects the music and Enigmatic style
<DarkEra> madeinkobaia, now that would be great :)
<DarkEra> it's ok, whenever you have the time
<madeinkobaia> Great : )
<DarkEra> what's great is that you want to do it. I appreciate it a lot so thank you :)
<DarkEra> i'll make sure that i put it on my blog and mention your name too ;)
<madeinkobaia> No worries ;-)
<madeinkobaia> About my work I am glad that you appreciate it. I always do both, music and graphics (but traditional like drawing), but since 2008 I mainly work on numeric graphics.
<madeinkobaia> I don't have a musical serious project for the moment. Maybe a composition for a movie but nothing sure.
<DarkEra> i see :)
<DarkEra> zequence, might be worth a try again with saucy once they uploaded 3.8 to the repo's. Will do a re-install in VB and give it another shot when they're ready
<zequence> DarkEra: I thought they had done that already, or only parts?
<DarkEra> zequence, i was just following the conversation in the ubuntu-gnome channel
<zequence> ok, propably only parts was uploaded before then
<DarkEra> could be possible
<DarkEra> will be back later this evening :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-06-01
<OvenWerks> madeinkobaia: I was looking at your webpage yesterday, very impressive
<OvenWerks> Of course, I am somewhat "graphically challanged"
<OvenWerks> Note the difference in quallity between the icons I created for our menus and the two Mish did... 
<madeinkobaia> OwenWerks : Hi :)
<OvenWerks> o/
<madeinkobaia> About which icon your talkin' about ?
<OvenWerks> Thge midi icon, the audio icon, effcts... the colourful ones ...
<OvenWerks> photography is mine too.
<OvenWerks> Mish did the mixer and the ... can't remember right now.
<OvenWerks> video.
<madeinkobaia> I don't know Mish : ( 
<OvenWerks> He is generally pretty busy. shows up sometimes. reads the mail list.
<madeinkobaia> Ok, it should be micahg_ I suppose ?
<OvenWerks> no, micha g is with xubuntu more.
<OvenWerks> Mish or Mishra is less invloved :)
<madeinkobaia> Ok : )
<OvenWerks> micha does our releasing in general
<OvenWerks> He has upload rights
<madeinkobaia> Ok, thanks for precise, I still don't know all the team.
<madeinkobaia> And main contributors.
<OvenWerks> I thought I had a link to Mish website, but I can't find it.
<OvenWerks> Ya, it is pretty confusing
<OvenWerks> We used to have meetings every two weeks and there were lots of people at the meetings, but when I got involved I found out most of them just showed up to the meetings and nothing more.
<madeinkobaia> I am curious to see his work, you can also send me a mail if you find it latter 
<madeinkobaia> ok
<OvenWerks> We actually seem to have more active people now
<OvenWerks> But that is why zequence has been putting growing the team as a priority
<madeinkobaia> Yep, its what I see. Hope the communication will be good between oldest and newest members. We should have a good understand between us.
<OvenWerks> So far that is not a problem as we are all taking care of different things. there is very little overlap.
<madeinkobaia> Glad to read that.
<OvenWerks> madeinkobaia: `I was unable to find Mish's web page. Googling just his name gave too many hits for me to pick out which one was him :) Linked in alone showed 25 plus profiles for His name (some of them female) from all over the world.
<OvenWerks> Now I know why I am not on any social media... google turns up too much info.
<holstein> right?!
<holstein> i just have to do it..
<holstein> i literally got in trouble on a gig for not "facebooking" about it
<OvenWerks> googling my name gets mostly US stuff :)
<holstein> the owner got all upset, and told the piano player not to hire me anymore, cause i didnt seem interested in teh gig
<holstein> the*
<OvenWerks> Launchpad, mailing list etc.
<OvenWerks> Thats dumb
<holstein> these are strange times...
<OvenWerks> Sure are. I guess you don't have to put anything on there, name bass player...
<holstein> well, i didnt think i had to.. but if clubs are going to expect that..
<holstein> i wont make it ;)
<OvenWerks> It's ok to have one for the band, but for each member?
<OvenWerks> I guess if you are "for hire" as an independent player it makes some sense, but still simple would be the rule. You do have a web page after all.
<OvenWerks> zequence: looking at http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/ubuntustudio-dev.html shows all kinds of people not in the team... and none of the owrk I have done so far.
<OvenWerks> Do we need to have our blueprints registered?
<madeinkobaia> zequence, notice me when you're on line.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-06-02
<OvenWerks> Question for anyone... assuming a potion of menu that may end up with any DE, It makes sense to group the studio help/info menu with the 5 workflow menus. I am thinking to put this info menu at the top, dose that make sense? or should it be the bottom of the group?
<OvenWerks> I am still not certain what would be best for our own ISO, but for those adding our menu+plus metas to another install, I think all our stuff should be together.
<ryanpcmcquen> hello!
<ryanpcmcquen> i'd like to help if at all possible ;-)
<DarkEra> hello and welcome ryanpcmcquen :) zequence is the lead of Ubuntu Studio so it's best to talk to him
<ryanpcmcquen> thanks!
<DarkEra> if he doesn't respond later on don't hesitate to jump in on a regular basis, you might catch him. Or you can just hang around with us here ;)
<DarkEra> he'll show up for sure
<ryanpcmcquen> thank you!
<DarkEra> you could subscribe to the mailinglist if you want to: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-Studio-devel
<DarkEra> and have a look here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio
<DarkEra> you're most welcome :)
<ryanpcmcquen> signing off for now, thank you for the tips
<DarkEra> ok, laters :)
<zequence> OvenWerks: Feel free to change anything on our desktop to fall in line with Xubuntu
<zequence> except the obvious, of course: our specific settings, and artwork
<OvenWerks> Will do
<OvenWerks> I think I posted it in the channel.. :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-05-26
<OvenWerks> zequence: installed vanilla.
<OvenWerks> zequence: vanilla doesn't come with an irc client  :P  It of course does not have a menu per say, but the left side bar could be set up for any one work flow. Installed xfce4-panel and now have a menu... no icons though. I found it does not use the xfce-menu file but reads gnome-applications.menu
<OvenWerks> zequence: I guess that makes sense, it probably looks at what kind of session it is.
<OvenWerks> ls
<OvenWerks> Hmm, I can't set focus follows mouse on here
<zequence> Been a little busy this weekend. Won't have time much today either, but will check in tomorrow.
<Rosco2> Finished subscribing UbuntuStudioBugs to relevant packages. Possible tuning to do.
<Rosco2> But thinking of a quick email to the mailing lists to advertise US-Bugs Team.
<Rosco2> Good idea to email US-devel and US-user?
<zequence> Rosco2: Oh, great. If you want to post a mail about that, please do. I'll make sure we make use of that team in the coming cycle.
<zequence> Rosco2: -devel is enough
<zequence> -user mail list should mainly be about discussion and support
<Rosco2> Just drafting it now! Thanks thought I would check, because new to both lists and hadn't seen much traffic on -user
 * elfy didn't know there was one
<Rosco2> Will also mention it in separate mail to Debian-Multimedia
<zequence> elfy: we actually have a testing mail list too, which is not used yet
<zequence> ubuntustudio-testing
<elfy> yea - I did see that one :D
<elfy> was wandering about ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-26
<micahg> zequence: OvenWerks: the way backports currently works is that the newer version (backport) is only installed upon request in USC or by passing apt a specific version, or as dependency of a newer package from backports
<micahg> so, you can't really "accidentally" get a backport
<zequence> micahg: Ah, so you need to manually install it. Ok, that's pretty easy to keep in check then,
<zequence> It actually makes more and more sense using the proposed way for categorizing. Debian has three sections - sound, graphics and video. There are freedesktop categories for those
<zequence> Sub categories are more fluid, and harder to cement
<zequence> But, that's our work comes in.
<zequence> Has anyone tried Muon Discover?
<OvenWerks> zequence: It seems our version of jackdbus that says it is 1.9.10 is actually 1.9.9.5 which has a bug that means exporting audio files from ardour may be shortened.
<OvenWerks> zequence: That is 14.04 LTS I am talking about.
<OvenWerks> Utopic is ok though.
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yeah, that is probably a bit confusing. The version is probably a development version (1.9.9.5+20130622git7de15e7a-1ubuntu1)
<zequence> That's an old date for trusty
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-27
<zequence> OvenWerks: Should we think about moving either media playback so that it appears directly under our menu items, or we move our stuff into the regular menu area?
<zequence> I think now is a good time to really push for making everything end up in the right place
<holstein> ideally, getting a "right" place implemented with freedesktop
<holstein> im assuming they are open to that.. and have not made an attempt at contact yet
<holstein> im *sure* other folks have the same issue
<holstein> if they had what the community needs, then, the creators of the software can put it where they like
<holstein> which, would benefit everyone, potentially... could be one of those things thats never implemented correctly, though
<zequence> It's a little bit tricky. The right place right now is really just the "right" place the way we see it
<zequence> But, it's good if we follow the freedesktop standard with the menu as far as possible
<holstein> sure, and i get that, and dont think it will be addressed upstream in a timley fashion
<zequence> It's a little but open for interpretation, and we're really going crazy with it
<zequence> I haven't made any contact upstream yet, so I have no idea
<holstein> its just that, the freedesktop standards are not appropriate for *any* proaudio setup, so, if we "fixed" that, upstream, it would just trickle to everyone
<holstein> could be, the plan is to phase the menu out
<holstein> which, i get..
<zequence> I think it works a long way, just that the categories are not being used a lot yet
<holstein> i mean, brasero is a great example.. since, its *not* just for burning audio
<holstein> when i want to create a backup data bluray of a hard disk, i look in an audio menu
<holstein> its gotta go somewhere :)
<holstein> but, at least, the creators of brasero can put it where they like..
<zequence> There are probably a lot more examples where the category doesn't really fit
<holstein> just as sane default works..
<OvenWerks> The right place is workflow dependant. The standard place is alpha order.
<OvenWerks> holstein: zequence ^^
<zequence> OvenWerks: Yes, but do we keep separating the multimedia items from the rest? What do you think? If we do straight off alphabetical order, then we do not make any separation between our menu items and others, just that the multimedia ones will be finer tuned
<OvenWerks> zequence: I honestly don't know. I think the only thing we gain by grouping them is that it highlights to the user what the differences are in Studio from Ubuntu (or Xubunt or whatever).
<OvenWerks> zequence: it is pretty hard to say if that is worth while or not.
<OvenWerks> I personally like not having to drag my mouse down as far ;)
<holstein> how about, an A-K tab :)
<OvenWerks> But that is really not a case for going non-alpha
<holstein> A-K and L-Z ;)
<holstein> im totally kidding around.. 
<OvenWerks> The main part of our menu is not that big. :)
<holstein> im with whatever you guys decide.. i wouldnt mind getting involved in contacting the freedesktop folks and "fixing" it up there
<OvenWerks> holstein: in truth I have two screens and I have a second small pannel on the right screen (vertical/lower/left) and I put the programs I use in that.
<holstein> yeah, i dont use a menu.. you dont either
<holstein> some folks would appreciate the things moved, others will wish they had been left alone ;)
<OvenWerks> holstein: I do use the menu for a lot of things, but the pannel has a terminal, an ssh to my server, qjackctl and ardour in it.
<holstein> i installed gnome-do, probably 4+ years ago.. now i use kupfer.. but, since then, i dont use any menu
 * OvenWerks is running 10 terminals right now...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-05-28
<sakrecoer> i can't drop this vision of "audio production" and "visual production"
<sakrecoer> i enjoyed reading the backlog from 27/5
<sakrecoer> freedesktop might very well listen if we come up with an interesting taxonomy for audio-production workflow.
<zequence> video is a sort of mix betwen audio and graphics
<sakrecoer> and they might as well for graphic-production, video-production or visual.production
<zequence> So, not only visual
<sakrecoer> i think in terms of "visual-proction" because it includes everithing visual: 2d, 3d graphics, animation, motionstop, video sequencing,
<sakrecoer> but perhaps i'm the only one associating visual that way?
<zequence> In some respects, categories never make sense
<sakrecoer> hehe..
<zequence> I'm glad we started working on this though
<zequence> Since both Debian sections and Freedesktop categories use those three main categories, I find use of them most logical
<sakrecoer> yes
<zequence> Debian calls audio "sound", but that makes less of a difference
<zequence> The sub categories are harder to define
<zequence> They are in a way more fluid and many applications will fall under more than one
<zequence> Or, in none
<sakrecoer> yes, you are right. its a fine edge. in a way, orthologicaly, if you separate video from graphics, the removal of photo becomes questionable...
<sakrecoer> but.... "computologicaly"(?) the three workflows make sense... :)
<sakrecoer> those stated at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/MultimediaApplicationCategorization
<sakrecoer> you really rocked the wiki zequence! thanks! 
<sakrecoer> should we start filling the blanks on the pages[1], or will this be done by some script? [1]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Wily/GraphicsApplications
<zequence> I will do another set of tables first
<zequence> Then, if you like, you can do as much as you have time for. Especially under graphics and video, which seem to be your fields
<zequence> I will do work on audio, which is a big nut to crack
<zequence> A lot of work, researching all those packages
<zequence> But, before we start, we need to have a list of sub categories that we will use
<zequence> What we have now is a proposal
<zequence> We can start with the freedesktop categories. The ones that exist are safe to use. 
<zequence> Later we decide on how the metas should look like
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-30
<trebmuh> FYI, I'm currently working on getting SSR (simple screen recorder) into debian
<trebmuh> https://mentors.debian.net/package/simplescreenrecorder
<trebmuh> if you want to have a look to it
<zequence> Cool. Yes, we were looking at some alternatives earlier
<zequence> We are going to change this cycle
<zequence> We chose vokoscreen out of the current options in the repo
<trebmuh> does it have JACK-audio ?
<trebmuh> I though it was only ALSA or pulse, isn't ?
<zequence> trebmuh: pulse only, yes. But, since we have the PA bridge, you can always use it with jack
<zequence> A bit technical though, since it involves a lot of connection logic
<trebmuh> yes
<trebmuh> this is one the whys I'm using SSR : JACK-able screencast recorder
<trebmuh> It does look that vokoscreen is targeted to DV camera and stuffs
<trebmuh> so it does look to me that the purposes of the 2 are not the same
<trebmuh> anyway, my incursion here was just to let you guys aware about this
<trebmuh> feel free to test it if you want :)
<trebmuh> one thing I like with SSR is it's pretty straight : the configuration wizard is pretty straightforward : clic, put the name of the output file, clic, select audio engine, clic, select vidÃ©o and audio codecs, press Ctrl + R, do your stuff, press "save record", done
<zequence> trebmuh: As soon as it is in the repo we should consider discuss adding it. You think it'll be in within the next 2-3 months?
<trebmuh> hopefully, it's will be quicker that that :)
<zequence> Debian import freeze is about 2 months before each release, so late Augus
<trebmuh> the package is in a good state : it builds on unstable and I tested it on an debian unstable system as well. Works fine. I just have to look at a configure option and my "mentor" will do the job of uploading afterward (if I get correctly the packaging processs for debian since this is my first attempt to package for the *official* repo)
<trebmuh> will let you know when it's done
<zequence> Should be no problem as long as the licenses are ok, and it builds
<trebmuh> yes the d/copyright is fine and lintian doesn't complain on it (anymore)
<sakrecoer> i'm rendring a video tutorial i just made with vokoscreen. really cool app. will try ssr sometime
<sakrecoer> speaking of which, zequence: weren't there some firewire controls in ubuntustudio-controls before?
<sakrecoer> i can control my DV-cam with dvgrab... but it is no longer detected as a webcam in 16.04
<zequence> sakrecoer: The firewire side was just to add you to the "video" user group, which was used for firewire at the time
<zequence> These days, there are udev rules for devices
<zequence> ..which means, you don't need to be in a group in order for the system to pass those through to users
<sakrecoer> yeah, dvgrab can run it out of the box...
<sakrecoer> but it used to be availble in webcam aware apps, even kdenlive... no more unfortunately..
<zequence> sakrecoer: A quick test is to run an app as root, and see if it recognizes your devices
<sakrecoer> oh! right!!! nice!
<sakrecoer> no luck... 
<zequence> So, a kernel problem of some kind
<zequence> Perhaps an additional kernel package needs to be installed?
<zequence> ..or, it is a regression with the driver of some kind
<sakrecoer> had no luck websearching...
<zequence> I'm not on Ubuntu, but try looking for addition firmware or other similar linux packages in the repo
<zequence> Could be something was split off 
<zequence> And, if all else fails, report a bug
<sakrecoer> addition firmware...? how do i do that?
<zequence> apt-cache search firmware, or apt-cache search linux
<sakrecoer> thanks!
<zequence> sakrecoer: Do you have other firewire devices on that system that works?
<sakrecoer> yes. the audio card
<sakrecoer> and the camera works with dvgrab
<sakrecoer> its just not detected as a.. well... webcam?
<zequence> Ah, ok, now I understand. I was as usual not reading it well
<zequence> I can't advice much, as I have very little experience with Cameras. Probably not very specific to Ubuntu though, more so to the kernel version
<zequence> You could, if you want, try an older kernel on that system
<sakrecoer> well.. i foud a workarround :D
<sakrecoer> i use dvgrab in paralel to vokoscreen, with a dirty manual trick to synch :D
<sakrecoer> all because of my vanity "i need to be visible in this tutorial" :D
<zequence> Ah, I use another application with an evil MS webcam, and vokoscreen.
<zequence> Been working on a similar setup.
<sakrecoer> i did it like this: i set vokoscreen to record "window", then i pick the window i want, once vokoscreen is recording, i minimize the screen. since the camera also shows a bit of the screen, i synch that minimzation
<sakrecoer> ... in the video editor...
<zequence> I will be using audio cues
<zequence> Since what I do is mostly about audio
<sakrecoer> ok! cool! i did it on blender VSE..
<sakrecoer> which reminds me: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Tutorials/
<zequence> I will probably need to use something else than Openshot when I edit. Haven't got to that point yet
<sakrecoer> to draft the tutorial :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: I would put that in the help wiki instead
<sakrecoer> we don't have editing priviliedge there yet...
<zequence> sakrecoer: Meaning https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio/Tutorials
<sakrecoer> but i plan to copy it there once it is finished. the wiki part...
<sakrecoer> https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=28610
<zequence> wiki.ubuntu.com is only used for either development or sysadmin stuff, while help.ubuntu.com is better for how to's
<zequence> I mean, user how to's
<sakrecoer> well, that link i just gave you is for developing tutorials :)
<sakrecoer> once they are writen, the idea is to copy them to help.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio... but atm we can't edit help.ubuntu
<zequence> wiki.ubuntu.com is not a staging site though, so would be better to not publish it anywhere until it is finished
<zequence> A how to on how to make tutorials would be best kept in wiki.ubuntu.com
<zequence> But, not the tutorial itself
<sakrecoer> yeah, well again: we can't edit help.ubuntu atm, so... also, is it preferable to have half finished wiki pages on the user wiki?
<sakrecoer> i don't think so. but i might be wrong
<zequence> Thing is, you can't delete pages on wiki.ubuntu.com
<zequence> And, it's not meant to be a staging site for help.ubuntu.com
<sakrecoer> can you delete pages on help.ubuntu.com?
<zequence> No
<sakrecoer> ok...
<zequence> YOu can rename them
<sakrecoer> well... i can delete pages on wiki.ubuntu.com
<zequence> hmm, maybe. Haven't seen that before, actually
<sakrecoer> yup, it worked :)
<sakrecoer> in the "more action" scroll own menu...
<sakrecoer> *down
<zequence> Yes, I know where it is. Not sure it was there before. Going to check help.ubuntu.com
<zequence> Even as a Ubuntu member, I don't seem to have edit rights there
<sakrecoer> :(
<zequence> It might be better though to not use wiki.ubuntu.com as a staging site, as those pages will show in google searches quite quickly, and if a page is not ready it will just look weird
<zequence> That said, there are plenty of pages we have in the wiki that should be deleted or fixed
<zequence> Either they are outdated, or just false
<sakrecoer> so were do we stage wikipages?
<zequence> Wherever you want. A text file in your HD, or some text in an email, or if you collaborate - you need to share it somehow
<sakrecoer> ok, that isn't stageing a wiki... at best, when inserting images, i would have to use libreoffice, rendering the work doubled...
<sakrecoer> i guess the best is to write it directly in help.ubuntu...
<sakrecoer> but its locked atm, so i think it is fine right now
<zequence> Well, yes, when you do the actual formatting
<zequence> sakrecoer: You should apply for Ubuntu membership already, I think.
<zequence> You've been involved for enough time, and there's really no reason why you shouldn't be accepted at this point
<sakrecoer> :) i began writing my wiki-page..
<sakrecoer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SetHallstrom
<sakrecoer> if you want to add a testimoial ... i'd be very <3
<zequence> Not sure if it is actually needed for anything, other than editing the wiki, now that I think about it
<zequence> But, it's a sign of trust in some way
<zequence> Actually, I'm trying to logout and login to the help wiki, but no luck. It's stuck
<zequence> I remember when I started workin on the both wikis. I had the greates respect for how things were set up
<zequence> ..until I realized there was no order
<zequence> So, I was being very free in how I organized things
<zequence> Took me quite some time to realize the structure that is now present, not that I was working on it night and day - more in short focused bursts
<zequence> the help wiki has a funny cache thing to it. You need to do a cold refresh on your web reader in order to see new changes
<zequence> Still no editing rights
<sakrecoer> :(
<sakrecoer> video is rendered, but the audio got terrible... interstingly, you can bounce just the audio from blender :)
<sakrecoer> what do you think? is this useable or just a confusing fragle? http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/blenderVSEtut_ubuntustudio.mp4
<zequence> sakrecoer: Didn't realize you spoke English with a French accent :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: Seems like a nice introduction. The basic stuff
<zequence> Just the kind of thing I will be doing as well, at first
<zequence> How to start jack, how to select your device, how to just get your engine up and running
<zequence> So, I won't be mixing the basic stuff with more focused stuff
<zequence> The basic stuff will be very short, and very informational
<sakrecoer> :) sounds like a good plan!
<zequence> It might be better to split things into to small parts. Just 2 min each witht he basic things
<zequence> The kind of stuff you google, you know
<zequence> But, when you do actual work, and it is about the experience of that, then it's more interesting to follow the whole thing, the vibe so to speak
<sakrecoer> yeah, might have merged 2 parts in there. a) setting blender up, b) basic editing
<zequence> At the same time, I could do just 1-5 min about how to compress something
<zequence> Right
<zequence> Hard to resist being informational
<sakrecoer> good catch tho, it would be easy to divide it, since i actualy did a real cut...
<sakrecoer> at arround 05:55
<zequence> As an example, OÃ³ne video could just be about how to set the audio for blender.
<zequence> Cool spelling. Quite unintentional
<sakrecoer> :D
<zequence> And, that don't need to be more than 10 sec
<zequence> sakrecoer: In youtube you would have playlists to categorize the videos by what they are about
<zequence> sakrecoer: In archive.org, maybe that is not as important. We just do it in our own site
<sakrecoer> yeah, that would be a good idea i reckon :)
<sakrecoer> yes :)
<zequence> So, you have a category, but it is split into as many videos as you want. Each time you want to add a new detail, just make a new video
<zequence> Of course, doesn't mean all videos should be 15 sec long. Some actually need to be a bit longer :)
<zequence> Does help people find the exact thing that they want to learn though
<zequence> If you think about it, it's quite clear where the boundaries for the human mind are with these things. Yet, hard to use that insight in practice at all times
<sakrecoer> hmm... odd... the video quality gets pretty bad at the end... wonder why that is...
<sakrecoer> oh, yes... its kindof difficult to get things simple and straight forward...
<sakrecoer> i mean, in practice :D
<zequence> Harder than one would believe
<sakrecoer> yes for sure. at some point i had to stop thinking too much and just... do it. otherwise i would have been reshooting everything endlessly :D
<zequence> sakrecoer: You do it very well. There's a nice flow to it
<sakrecoer> thank you :) glad to read that!
<sakrecoer> i will cut it in 2 tho, and i have to investigate the decreasing video quality...
<sakrecoer> autumna: how do i reset the wacom script? for some reason, the button on the pen is now the enter key--
<sakrecoer> hmm... maybe it always was like that... the buttons work like expected in krita, gimp and blender...
<sakrecoer> autumna: maybe of interest? http://paste.ubuntu.com/16850264/
<sakrecoer> i get the feeling i need to replace Head-0 with the name of my displays...
<sakrecoer> tried with this, but no luck...http://paste.ubuntu.com/16851905/
<sakrecoer> my screens are of different resolutions...
<sakrecoer> and followed this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1656089
<sakrecoer> ok, if i use "." instead of "," things gets better :D
<sakrecoer> i can enter the values manualy like this xinput --set-prop "Wacom Graphire Pen stylus" --type=float "Coordinate Transformation Matrix" 0.333333 0 0 0 0.948148 0 0 0 1
<sakrecoer> but using the scripts will simply not affect xinput for some reason...
<sakrecoer> the matrix above hehe nope... this does work: xinput set-prop "Wacom Graphire Pen stylus" --type=float "Coordinate Transformation Matrix" 0.666666 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
<sakrecoer> (for me that is)
<sakrecoer> so i did this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/16853652/ but no success... i'm sure ti will become obvious tomorrow! :D thanks for making me dig into this, its super fun!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-05-31
<autumna> sakrecoer: I think you do it without type=float? There should be an example of it commented out in my script? 
<autumna> sakrecoer: and I think it needs to be Wacom Graphire Pad, not pen.
<autumna> I'll try to catch you tomorrow to see if I can help. :D 
<sakrecoer> thanx autumna :) i'ts definitly "pen". the xinput command alone dosen't work with pad, while it does with pen
<sakrecoer> i'm a complete bash n00b, but i get the feeling that the echo just prints the stuff to the screen without actualy doing anything :D
<sakrecoer> because the commands are printed all good to the screen. if i copy and paste it in the terminal, it works...
<sakrecoer> i added the #!/bin/bash in the top, and did th chmod +x thing...
<sakrecoer> i do it with type=float.. i have to add, i'm actualy just greatful to have it mapped to one of the screens. but it would be fun to understand :) so don't wasist too much time on me :)
<sakrecoer> actualy, even ' xsetwacom --set "Wacom Graphire Pen stylus" MapToOutput "Head-1" ' works when i paste it in the terminal, but not when ran by the script... hehe i spent liek 2 hours figureing out the math for the matrix yesterday :D
<sakrecoer> hmm... setting those commands in xfce4-keyboard-shortcurs isn't working either :D i think my computer is having a mutiny party....
<sakrecoer> it would make a lot of sense that it has become sentient, i mean what can i do wrong? :D
<sakrecoer> yes, that must be it. it is tellming me to shut up and draw, instead of pseudo-hacking
<sakrecoer> zequence: re: christing and the queens dance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzFYmz2lfT4 i'm super fond of that amateurish style. while i think she is signed to a major now (.. ) she is self-made. my mother sent me a link to her web some years ago, and she had this manifest basically stating her plan. and it fucking worked :D
<sakrecoer> lots of micheal jakcons moves, but with a... ehm... ungracefull grace haha
<autumna> hi Sakrecoer you there?
 * autumna looks at the script
<autumna> sakrecoer: yes you are supposed to remove echo. (it just prints) *blinks* hmm what I have is exactly what you have. Now I am confused. does xsetwacom --set "$stylus" MapToOutput "Head-0" or "Head-1" not work? (assuming you are on nvidia driver). that should properly swap even if your screens are different sized.
<autumna> when you say matrix doesn't work you mean it doesn't have any effect. righ?
<sakrecoer> hi autumna! :)
<sakrecoer> both MapOutput and matrix works...
<sakrecoer> but only when put directly in terminal,
<autumna> ok
<sakrecoer> when using the scripts, it jsut prints the command to the terminal, but nothing is set
<autumna> that's because i am silly
<sakrecoer> but if copy the command that have been printed, and enter them in the terminal, it works
<autumna> and I forgot to add the actual action apparently
<sakrecoer> :D ...not that i think you are silly, but it kindof feels good to know i had slight clue of what was ging on :D
<autumna> there is the echos. and not the actually command. just remove the "echo" word in front in the script than things should work?
<autumna> hahaha
<sakrecoer> ok... let me try! :p
 * sakrecoer gets all excited
<autumna> I am very sorry sakrecoer, I honestly didn't realize most of the toggle was missing the actions itself. it has been a few years since I used the script. I must have changed things than forgot..
<sakrecoer> don't be sorry! had i tried it after you posted it, we would have found out sooenr!
<sakrecoer> and it was fun trying to understand what the what
<sakrecoer> learned lots about bash and stuff :)
<sakrecoer> without echo i get "Cannot find device '"Wacom'.
<sakrecoer> "
<sakrecoer> maybe those ' " ' shouls have stayed :D
<sakrecoer> hmm... with the ' " ' i got  " ./wacomscript.sh: line 64: xsetwacom --set "Wacom Graphire Pen stylus" MapToOutput "Head-0": command not found "
<sakrecoer> i have this now...
<sakrecoer> xsetwacom --set \"$stylus\" MapToOutput \"Head-0\" #name of my primary monitor
<sakrecoer> something is funky with how $stylis $eraser is formated..
<sakrecoer> i get "Cannot find device '"Wacom'. " as if it stopped at the space---
<sakrecoer> autumna: me IRL :D http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/computer_says_nope.png (in the background you can see krytarik laughing to tears reading the backlog)
<autumna> LOL
<autumna> :(
<autumna> ohdear
<autumna> hang on
<sakrecoer> don't worry autumna  :) there is noooo hurry :)
<autumna> xsetwacom --set "$stylus" MapToOutput "Head-0"
<autumna> replace the \" with " (the backslash is to escape the quote)
<autumna> that and make sure that higher up in the script the $stylus is replaced with your actual device
<autumna> (unless you happen to have that exact type of intuos)
<autumna> as I said that script really isn't ready for prime time ;D
<sakrecoer> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ 
<sakrecoer> STANDING OVATION!!!
<sakrecoer> https://freesound.org/people/Robinhood76/sounds/218494/
<autumna> yay?
<autumna> that means it worked?
<sakrecoer> yes! :D
<sakrecoer> like a charm!
<autumna> awesome
<autumna> :D
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-02
<sakrecoer> intersting: https://uappexplorer.com/app/krita.krita krita 3.0 packaged with snap :)
<sakrecoer> i'll try another day.. :( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-361/+bug/1587597
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1587597 in nvidia-graphics-drivers-361 (Ubuntu) "Proprietary graphics not available to Snappy packages" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<zequence> sakrecoer: I don't understand. What does krita has to do with nvidia drivers?
<sakrecoer> nothing, but apparently snap can't talk to nvidia atm
<sakrecoer> so things installed using snap can't either...
<sakrecoer> (as far as i have understood it)
<sakrecoer> ^^zequence
<sakrecoer> well... krita can use openGL... so i guess it does have something to do with nvidia if you've got an nvidia... 
<zequence> I still don't see how that has to do with a Krita snap package
<zequence> The drivers are installed separately. They are not a dependency to Krita
<sakrecoer> well... it didn't work, and i don't seem to be the only one: https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/4m3ig8/krita_30_has_been_packed_as_a_snap_package/
<zequence> No, I don't think the nvidie drivers affect the open gl version. Open gl is its own lib
<zequence> Ah, right. The Krita snap package includes the open gl lib, and the nvidia drivers can't find them - perhaps
<sakrecoer> zequence: read the link :) as for the whys and hows... well... you know my levle :D
<zequence> Think it's a bigger problem than just nvidia in that case
<sakrecoer> maybe, the bug description seems to point at how the nvidia directory is auto-bind-mount:ed
<sakrecoer> but like i said: what do i know? except it didn't work and there seems to be a fix on the way :)
<sakrecoer> we should now be able to edit help.wiki.com :)
<sakrecoer> sorry, i mean http://help.ubuntu.com
<zequence> Ah, I probably didn't login with the ubuntumembers team last time
<sakrecoer> zequence: no, it was locked for us..
<sakrecoer> i had RT give ~ubuntustudio-documentation editing permision on help.ubuntu
<zequence> sakrecoer: Yes, but I should have been able to edit last time already
<zequence> The ubuntumembers LP team was not toggled when I logged in this time (which I was unable to do, but will try later again)
<sakrecoer> i have made a video-tutoiral titlecard mockup... it's a half size and rendered with low raytrace samples... just to give an idea of what it could look like..
<sakrecoer> http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/audio0001-0120.avi
<sakrecoer> http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/graphics0001-0120.avi
<sakrecoer> http://sakrecoer.com/ubuntustudio/video0001-0120.avi
<sakrecoer> 4 seconds...
<sakrecoer> i imagine the title of the tutorial being a png added after the sequence... should be simple, to be easily adapted
<sakrecoer> i'll be back later this evening! o/
<zequence> sakrecoer: Looks really nice. I only had a look at the first, and the things that sort of make me react were:
<zequence> 1) too much grain. It looked a bit too lo-fi
<zequence> 2) the second part needs more work (the text for what the tutorial is about)
<zequence> The second part needs more juice. A sexier font, and more focus on Audio Tutorials
<zequence> The amount of text, on two separate lines, inside 2 seconds, just makes it very obscure
<zequence> And, I would probably stretch the time a little bit.
<zequence> Just a little
<zequence> Other than that, I really do like it a lot
<zequence> sakrecoer: I see you are using the wallpaper as background, and if you could also have a look at how to adapt that to our social sites, that would be great
<sakrecoer> zequence: 1) is because its a mockup and i put low samples on the raytracer 2) ok :)
<zequence> sakrecoer: sorry, I see now that I miswrote earlier. When I said "Audio Tutorials" I was of course only referring to the first video.
<zequence> Or, the second part of the first video, that is
<sakrecoer> zequence: good :) i'll worj on something :)
<geirdal> Than kyou krytarik
<krytarik> geirdal: Welcome here as well. :)
<geirdal> :)
<krytarik> sakrecoer: Please attend! :P
<geirdal> what is that?
<krytarik> geirdal: ...Either way, thanks for your interest in contributing to Ubuntu Studio.  The project lead.
<krytarik> Feel free to ask any questions you have - maybe I can answer them.
<geirdal> I think this is the place I should be at, or is it not? Iam a visual digital artist and use multiple software to create my art see here http://www.geirdal.is
<geirdal> to follow only one or two open source projects is not enough for me I think this is more interresting, it gor every thing
<krytarik> Yeah, that's quite literally true. :P
<geirdal> for one image I use: mandelbulber,makehuman,krita,blender, gimp, inkscape and some others to scetch with
<geirdal> its imposible to follow them all
<sakrecoer> hi geirdal :)
<sakrecoer> sorry i'm in an afk room :|
<sakrecoer> but i read :)
<geirdal> hi, ok
<sakrecoer> this is one of the places you should be at, yes.
<sakrecoer> ubuntustudio is a human version of debian multimedia...
<geirdal> ok tell me more
<sakrecoer> if you want your machine to be perfect, you might be better of follow debian. if you want your cousin, your brother and maybe even your mothers machine to be perfect ubuntu studio is the place
<sakrecoer> however, anything you do here, will benefit all those who want there own perosnal machine to be perfect
<sakrecoer> because all we do here, is repackage deian packages :)
<sakrecoer> s/deian/debian
<sakrecoer> we do not only repackage it, we make it work out of the box for anyone to enjoy freedom of computing by the people for the poeple
<sakrecoer> so yea, you are right, we go for eveything. or everyone, from mothers to robots
<geirdal> Iam new to linux, about a year ago I was using windows then I realised that all software that I was using floss and was for linux, then I switch to linux but I dint find my distro at first but *I think I am home.
<sakrecoer> home is where your heart is at
<geirdal> I am at home
<sakrecoer> :)
<sakrecoer> welcome geirdal !
<geirdal> :)
<sakrecoer> you from island, geirdal ?
<geirdal> iceland yes
<geirdal> you?
<sakrecoer> velkomnir
<sakrecoer> right now from sweden :)
<geirdal> Ãakka Ã¾Ã©r fyrir
<sakrecoer> but we you and all of #us-d have the earth in common :)
<geirdal> but originaly
<geirdal> true
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: The two applications geirdal meantioned that we don't have right now are: a) in our repos and b) unique enough in purpose and use that they wopuld not be duplicating what we already have.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I would suggest adding them to our feature tree if it is still before freeze (feature)
<sakrecoer> well, do we still have the arsit card laying around somewhere? :D i guess i should read my mail, but i will do that tomorrow early ;)
<sakrecoer> s/arsit/artist
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: where is the feature deffinition?
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks: this one? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions
<OvenWerks> Huh, would those be graphics or video? Or one each? I guess makehuman is video.
<sakrecoer> but at this point this is a good link: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-y-ubuntustudio ... althou i realized missed the "new" meta propositions...
<sakrecoer> makehuman is graphics
<geirdal> make human is not video it is 3d software to creat almost ready made 3d human mesh
<sakrecoer> makehuman is delicious
<geirdal> witch Blender does not
<geirdal> but you always have to take that mesh in to blender 
<sakrecoer> YES! and mekahuman gives a delicious "export to blender" function... it even gives you face animation, so you can make your "human" speak :D...
<OvenWerks> Right. I am not a graphic artist :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-03
<sakrecoer> OvenWerks is the coding multi armed cyber hyper human!
<geirdal> and mandelbulber is 3d Fractal calculator
<krytarik> !info makehuman-data
<ubottu> makehuman-data (source: makehuman): Modelling of 3-Dimensional humanoid characters (application data). In component universe, is optional. Version 1.1.0~git20160515-1 (yakkety), package size 259654 kB, installed size 325925 kB
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I added them to the top of the graphics blue print (being priority over figuring categories)
<krytarik> (Notice the size of that.)
<sakrecoer> yea, its big so its still a good package to get people be more interested in apt getting something on their own?
<sakrecoer> dont get me wrong: its awesome, we could draw each others robo-portraits with makehuman. we could (should) push it, but it defo doesn't fit the CD-iso
<geirdal> but artist like me dont want to use the termina
<sakrecoer> artist use google terminal tho...
<sakrecoer> artists like me do...
<sakrecoer> i did this with make human: https://vimeo.com/83261266 its not perfect, but that is not makehumans fault, rather mine :D
<sakrecoer> the only thing that is keeping you from using your own terminal, geirda, is you. "free your mind and the rest will follow"
<sakrecoer> ^ geirdal 
<sakrecoer> sorry for missspelling... not in my *brightest mod => single "o"
<geirdal> yes I am trying to free my mind, Iam here, but new artist that are not there yeat, what about them
<geirdal> crasy video: sakrecoer
<geirdal> ;)
<sakrecoer> :D we can do it! copmuterwiz did it! terminal is in every home! the only issue is that most homes whish terminal do it for them: click=happy
<sakrecoer> alphabetism2.0
<sakrecoer> level upwards is anoher ubuntu studio purpose, appart from bringing multimedia to your mothers conveniance
<geirdal> ubuntustudio is not lightweight distro, yes. 
<geirdal> you nedd good hardware
<sakrecoer> it is heavy weight, yes
<geirdal> so how big can it be?
<sakrecoer> tho, we are working on a lighter version... please feel free to rbing ideas. may they be heavy, happy light or lame: togehter we can make them happen.
<sakrecoer> our wight watcher is at DVD lmimt: 4,7gb
<geirdal> why?
<geirdal> 4.7gb it is not that big
<geirdal> what is it 2.4gb?
<sakrecoer> lame=becuase good luck. heavy= because may be justified. happy=becuase who doesn't want to?, light= because it's the best on the not so democratic internet
<geirdal> hehehe
<geirdal> why?
<sakrecoer> :D why not?
<geirdal> just because or is this project growing?
<sakrecoer> the growth probably depends on your contribution
<geirdal> :) hope so
<sakrecoer> it's a common cause, so you could maybe bet on it
<geirdal> ok I will
<sakrecoer> <3 i look forward to read you beyond the fog i'm in, geirdal
<sakrecoer> not that i have anything to do with this project, except for my interest in seeing it growing
<geirdal> agree
<sakrecoer> :) asirj adlger vfdlpqeruybv ad olierf lsdf ewfo <3 (oo,) this guy, very nice
<sakrecoer> g'night y'all!
<geirdal> ;)
<geirdal> when is this channel most active?
<geirdal> Im at GMT time sone
<krytarik> Most of us are in Europe.
<geirdal> is it a goal to get new people off this channel?
<geirdal> just asking!
<OvenWerks> geirdal: I don't think so.
<geirdal> it is normal to ask question, or is it not?
<geirdal> how can I understand this project if I dont ask?
<OvenWerks> ask away... you may need to wait till tomorrow to get answers though... most people are utc or utc +
<OvenWerks> I am sort of the odd one out.
<OvenWerks> (-0700 here)
<OvenWerks> Most people leave their irc client running so they can read the backscroll when they come back.
<geirdal> ok thank you for telling me that
<geirdal> why does ubuntustudio not have dark theme as default and why is it not incluted?
<geirdal> light themes are difficult for the eyes when you spend hours in front af the screen
<DalekSec> Interstingly enough, dark themes are harder to create and maintain, to get everything right.  Numix isn't too bad, though not traditionally dark.  There's also 'MediterraneanDark' but you won't find that one in the repo and it's not the most well maintained either.
<DalekSec> There's been some recent work on Shimmer's Blackbird, but again not the most maintained.
<geirdal> Im using adwaita-dark works for me
<geirdal> ofcourse there are something strange but in overal it is better to work at my art, get less tired!
<geirdal> like inkskape it is easer in dark and I modiefy the icons to grayscale in inkskape
<OvenWerks> geirdal: one has to be careful with themes to as they can make some applications unusable (text same colour as background)
<geirdal> but why is dark theme not included, is it not my choice to take?
<OvenWerks> Ya, I guess none of them are really dark.
<geirdal> no
<OvenWerks> I wouldn't mind a darker theme to be honest
<geirdal> but easer for the eyes
<OvenWerks> My only "must have" is that the window decoration for focused windows is a diiferent colour to unfocused windows.
<OvenWerks> It is not unusual for me to have 10 windows spread across dual screens. I want to know which one is focaused.
<geirdal> yes that make sence
<OvenWerks> A lot of the "popular" themes have greyed text for unfocused :P
<OvenWerks> geirdal: Our theme selection is basically whatever xubuntu has. We have not had the manpower for the last few years to put togetehr a good well tested theme group.
<geirdal> ok I understand
<DalekSec> At the rate of GTK3 changes, hardly anyone can keep up!
<geirdal> but when I install ubuntustudio for the first time is not very interresting visional, I love it now when I have tweak it
<geirdal> its first apperance is not impressive for me as a visial artist
<autumna> ok so I am not the only person up at 5am in the morning?
<autumna> belated hi geirdal, nice to see more artists here. :D
<geirdal> hi
<geirdal>  its 2:26 pm here
<geirdal> sorry am
<autumna> *blinks* iceland is not on europe central right. 
<geirdal> right
<geirdal> GMT+
 * autumna is not quite awake. and GMT+2
<geirdal> ok ;)
<OvenWerks> 1930 here
<autumna> oh hi OvenWerks.
<OvenWerks> (the other end of the earth)
<autumna> I used to say that. :D then I discovered west coast. 
<geirdal> you are going to sleep when we are going up
<autumna> (wait it is west coast. nvm)
<OvenWerks> We call this place the "wet coast"
<autumna> :D
<OvenWerks> But at least it is warm
<geirdal> hehehehe true
<OvenWerks> (I think we had snow for a few hours this year)
<autumna> true enough. alright guys I am off to a belated sleep, I'll try to be less vanishing for the rest of the week and weekend, but do tag me, if you need me.
<geirdal> it was warm in iceland todau 15 celsius
<OvenWerks> cloudy all day here and still 16 as I go put my kids to bed.
<geirdal> It is like 5 here now
<geirdal> hehehe
<OvenWerks> SHorts weather then.
<geirdal> I can just move if I dont like it
 * OvenWerks used to deliver mail on foot. 5C was the deviding line for shorts or not.
<geirdal> yes you can have sun, rain and sometimes hail in the summer
<geirdal> all in the same hour
<autumna> well hail and rain for summer is not that weird, but I am suddenly realizing I might be the only person here living in proper warmer climates
<autumna> :P
<OvenWerks> Sounds like Calgary Alberta Canada (where I grew up)
<geirdal> turist often freak out by this
<autumna> XD
 * autumna waves all and really heads to sleep.
<geirdal> are you an artist autumna, and is what kind?
<geirdal> if
<geirdal> ovenWerks are you an artist?
<OvenWerks> musician
<geirdal> ok can I here something from the internet?
<geirdal> my work is here http://www.geirdal.is
<OvenWerks> I do mostly live stuff. no recording really. More programing
<geirdal> interresting
<OvenWerks> I am just begining in many ways with the programing, I work on Ardour on control surface (MIDI/OSC) code.
<OvenWerks> SOme of my personal stuff is http://www.ovenwerks.net/software/mcpdisp.html like that
<geirdal> ok cool
<geirdal> not that I do know enething about audio software
<OvenWerks> I learned c coding years ago, but Ardour in c++ so I am now learing that. I am finding I like it because most of my mistakes are caught at compile time.
<geirdal> do you play instrument or pure digital?
<OvenWerks> bass guitar mandolin (drums years ago)
<geirdal> ok a beat
<geirdal> mandolin?
<OvenWerks> It was passed down from my father about 5 years ago, so I am learning
<geirdal> and are getting it?
<geirdal> is it hard for you?
<OvenWerks> The people seem to be happy :) I put a set of chord cheat sheets on the floor...
<OvenWerks> Switching back and forth from fretless bass to mandolin is a challenge, but is getting better. The mandolin has a tiny finger board.
<geirdal> I look at my keyboard sometimes when I type
<OvenWerks> I do most of the time... two or three fingers perhand at most.
<geirdal> hehehe
<geirdal> I am not getting all the rules here but  Im a fast learner, am I arrogant to ask questions and whant to get answeres?
<geirdal> I know I am new
<geirdal> just a question
<OvenWerks> don't ask to ask... just ask. First rule in irc.
<geirdal> ok thanks :)
<geirdal> Ilast used irc about 20 years ago
<geirdal> it is getting back to me
<geirdal> if you are at diffrent timzone then most of the other people here. are you not often alone?
<geirdal> now I am awake in abnormal time
<geirdal> but it is just evening where you are at
<geirdal> right?
<krytarik> Remember we have -offtopic too, btw.
<geirdal> sorry
<OvenWerks> krytarik: :)
<OvenWerks> Ya 825pm
<OvenWerks> I am off during the day, so it is not a problem. I start catching up at about 6-7 am.
<geirdal> ok
<OvenWerks> I generally have more stuff to do in the evening
<OvenWerks> (along the line of having a life)
<geirdal> hehehe
<OvenWerks> I got one son to bed, I should go do the other. GN
<geirdal> this has been interresting
<geirdal> I will return 
<zequence> OvenWerks: Make your package suggestions here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PackageSelection/yakkety
<zequence> The blueprint you changed is for freedesktop categories, not selecting packages
<autumna> geirdal: I do a use a lot of media but mostly video, interactive, net art, did an installation or two in my time. ;D
 * autumna moves to offtopic for the rest of that conversation
<OvenWerks> zequence: Thankyou. I looked for this page but was unable to find it... Oh, I am logged in and still can't edit. The wiki has become useless for this kind of thing.
<OvenWerks> We should make a new blueprint for package selection... at least those we can edit.
<zequence> OvenWerks: There's no reason to have a blueprint for package selection, since it's just one change
<zequence> OvenWerks: Try logging out and logging in again
<OvenWerks> ok
<OvenWerks> Now it says I can edit. Thanks.
<OvenWerks> Done. It is not easy to find this page from ubuntustudio.org One has to know what the URL is.
<sakrecoer> Hi Rosco2 ! :)
<sakrecoer> nice cloak!
<Rosco2> :-)
<geirdal> Hi
<sakrecoer> wb geirdal :)
<geirdal> thank you ;)
<sakrecoer> geirdal: is this the theme you are using? http://cbowman57.deviantart.com/art/Adwaita-Dark-3-14-rev-2-492714039
<geirdal> no but close this is better i will use that
<geirdal> I really like this one
<sakrecoer> what do you think about these icons? https://snwh.org/moka
<geirdal> and I use ghost flat icons
<sakrecoer> ok :) nice. never seen before
<geirdal> I dont want to have colord icons
<geirdal> takes the focus off application icons
<sakrecoer> makes things looks more unified for sure.
<geirdal> yes it does
<sakrecoer> i'm going to try this out: http://www.noobslab.com/2014/10/hackstation-theme-ghost-flat-icons-for.html
<geirdal> this is what iam using :)
<sakrecoer> i like the icons, but that hackstation theme was not for me :)
<sakrecoer> looks like windows8 in black :D
<geirdal> ok
<geirdal> im using somthing like blender or kritaui theme
<sakrecoer> a blender like theme?
<geirdal> yes
<sakrecoer> nice
<sakrecoer> geirdal: what do you use for the window theming?
<sakrecoer> that adwaita-dark didn't come with window head style/theme..
<geirdal> not sure :(
<sakrecoer> that adwaita-dark adds a weird dotted box arround many elemnts
<sakrecoer> the indicator plugin
<geirdal> can I theme the windows seperatialy?
<sakrecoer> yes...
<sakrecoer> well, if you are using xfce4..
<sakrecoer> maybe you installed another DE ?
<sakrecoer> in the xfce4-settings-manager you have "appearance" and "window manager"
<geirdal> I hvave default ubuntustudio, xfce yes
<sakrecoer> in "window manager" you can pick the window style
<geirdal> ok Im using greybird
<sakrecoer> do you also have the weird dots arround entries of the indicator plugin menus?
<geirdal> no
<sakrecoer> when you use adwaita-dark..
<geirdal> yes
<geirdal> nothing weird
<sakrecoer> must be the version i found on deviant...
<sakrecoer> the boxes are everywhere actualy..
<sakrecoer> like this: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/103884
<geirdal> I thing I got mine from gnome somthing
<geirdal> im not seeing anything like this
<sakrecoer> and this: http://www.pasteall.org/pic/103885
<sakrecoer> ok.. :)
<geirdal>  Ive got it from this website https://www.gnome-look.org
<sakrecoer> seems to be many missing icons in the versio of ghist-flat i installed...
<sakrecoer> ok thanks!
<geirdal> yeah I know
<geirdal> but nothing that cant be fixed
<geirdal> somthing to base on
<geirdal> an idea
<geirdal> but I acctualy like to see some collors in the menu but not in the ui when Iam working
<geirdal> desktop
<sakrecoer> i like this style: https://snwh.org/paper/icons
<sakrecoer> i wish it was monochrome
<geirdal> yes I agree or grayscale
<geirdal> it lokks nice
<geirdal> Its a good fondation
<geirdal> but  I dont like the web browser icon :(
<geirdal> its safari
<sakrecoer> true...
<geirdal> in the menu categories audio, graphics, video should be in color
<sakrecoer> maybe the apps in the categories should be monochrome, of the same color?
<sakrecoer> all the audio apps being blue, all graphics orange and all video purple..? if that makes sense
<geirdal> interresting
<geirdal> yes then you will see right away what kind of application you are using
<geirdal> but in a paper cut icon style
<geirdal> icons with variations
<geirdal> of monochromic style
<geirdal> see lmms logo I like that https://lmms.io/ would skip the white and black lines thoug
<sakrecoer> not sure i understand what you mean geirdal 
<geirdal> you see lmms logo?
<sakrecoer> yes
<geirdal> the variation of green
<geirdal> diffrent pappercut look
<sakrecoer> you mean, "different from the papercut look"
<sakrecoer> ?
<geirdal> hehehe yes sorry
<sakrecoer> :) well, the papercut look is very flat, lmms is some sort of isometric 3d
<geirdal> yes but not that far from it
<geirdal> same idea whith light
<geirdal> in both cases
<sakrecoer> ok, i get it :)
<geirdal> :)
<sakrecoer> i wonder if there is a way to set up a script to batch process the icon files into being monochrome
<sakrecoer> i'm sure it is possible, but i don't quite know how...
<geirdal> that would be fantastic
<sakrecoer> would be so much work otherwise...
<geirdal> yes but just at first
<sakrecoer> maybe the categories could be monochrome in their repsective color, and the rest of apps in greyscale
<geirdal> yes but in lmms style
<sakrecoer> but that would leave us to draw each icon ourself...
<geirdal> that would be uniqe
<sakrecoer> is that something you could cope with geirdal ? drawing every icon?
<geirdal> yes that is a little problem
<geirdal> how many icons are we looking at?
<OvenWerks> I kind of like this: http://xwinman.org/screenshots/mwm-matt.gif
<geirdal> do not share the taste of this one
<OvenWerks> http://xwinman.org/screenshots/fvwm2-franz.gif
 * OvenWerks is feeling old school today...
<sakrecoer> geridal: a LOT... and as soon as someone would install something extra, the look would break, unless we draw icons for EVERYTHING :D
<geirdal> its old school
<sakrecoer> i like oldschool. but it's probably too strong of a character... 
<OvenWerks> I like that all the window handles are easy to see and grab
<OvenWerks> I do however like a nice menu
<geirdal> but thats ok because we have the look for ubuntustudio everthing extra is not from us
<geirdal> when it is added to the distro it will get its own icon
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer, geirdal: the main thing is the set of icons that are seen at first opening of whisker or the first view of the drop down menu.
<sakrecoer> true
<geirdal> yes
<OvenWerks> That does break part of the general overall idea with the custom icons in the first place which is to make the Studio workflow submenus standout as different
 * OvenWerks is not saying the ideas the current setup is based on is correct, just what it is
<sakrecoer> not sure that is mutualy exclusiv
<sakrecoer> unfortunately i have to go now! have a good evening guys! 
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer: I understand, even agree.
<geirdal> bye
<OvenWerks> o/
<OvenWerks> A theme I don't like: https://www.erat.org/files/bluesteel/screenshot.jpg
<OvenWerks> It looks interesting, but is to hard to use.
<geirdal> to hard and cold
<geirdal> it is very dominant
<OvenWerks> http://orig11.deviantart.net/927c/f/2008/323/a/0/third_fvwm_desk_by_pkmurugan.png
<geirdal> I like this one
<geirdal> a little bit of tron feeling in it
<OvenWerks> The window decorations use the same BG as the apps.
<geirdal> ok
<OvenWerks> The thing is I don't know how something like FF would look.
<OvenWerks> A lot of applications use there own theme.
<OvenWerks> (check phasex if we still have it)
<geirdal> yes and that is good, I dont whont blender to be execly the same as krita but close same color theme, I whan to see the diffrence when  I am tired
<geirdal> phasex a soft synth?
<OvenWerks> yes, they pack their own system theme too though
<geirdal> why is tat bad?
<geirdal> that
<OvenWerks> May not be bad. Just that the theme didn't work as a desktop theme.
<OvenWerks> I see it doesn't show up in the system settings any more.
<OvenWerks> (maybe it is gtk2 or something)
<geirdal> Iam an artist I dont whant to have everything unified, Iwhant colors in the right places and lack of them in some places
<geirdal> I whant to see what Iam doing when Iam working
<OvenWerks> makes sense.
<geirdal> Ubuntustudio is for artist! Yes, then we have to create something for that group, that should be creative
<geirdal> and some thingdiffrent than others are doing
<geirdal> artist are demanding but very open minded people
<geirdal> that is not the case with windows and OSX users, everthing have to be the same as the everybody have
<geirdal> sorry for the monolog :(
<OvenWerks> No problem. I talk like this sometimes because I know it will get read someone looks at their irc.
<geirdal> hehehe
<OvenWerks> I agree, we also want a store front portrait photographer to be able to use STudio without having to change backdrops and still look "profesional"
<geirdal> exectly
<OvenWerks> In some ways we should almost have a utility that allows the user put their logo in some places like that.
<OvenWerks> Use their logo for the menu icon, in the backdrop, login page or whatever.
<geirdal> dont we have that now?
<geirdal> user image
<OvenWerks> There isn't one place that does it all.
<geirdal> no ok I understand now
<OvenWerks> Sort of a general personalize.
<geirdal> true because this is important to a artist, his logo
<geirdal> his identity
<OvenWerks> I have enough little projects waiting for my time and attention allready :P
<geirdal> ?
<OvenWerks> Ardour is building again.
<geirdal> is that your main software that you us?
<OvenWerks> I have a couple of jack connection utilities to finish. a control surface, I am working on the Ardour OSC code just now. in prep for version 5.0
<geirdal> ok
<OvenWerks> It is my recording sw.
<OvenWerks> But I seem to spend a lot more time building than using it.
<geirdal> ah ok thats not good, is this what is waiting for me?
<geirdal> to take part in ubuntustudio?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-04
<geirdal> no time for art
<geirdal> only develope
<OvenWerks> That is up to you. I am playing with people a couple of times a week at least though. just not recording.
<geirdal> you are playing thats the most important thing
<geirdal> and you are here trying to improve artist workflow!
<geirdal> thats respect
<OvenWerks> Ga, someone else's commit has broken my stuff :P
<geirdal> I have a feeling that most of the artist here are audio artist! is that true?
<OvenWerks> yes, that has been one of our problems. We need  more video and graphic artists
<geirdal> the category "graphic deign" bugs me, iam not a graphig designer, iam painter that is not the same
<geirdal> A graphic artist yes but not a designer
<geirdal> does game engine fit the in studio like http://www.godotengine.org ?
<geirdal> are games art?
<OvenWerks> To me, Games are development and development may include art. I don't see art as including development though. Just my opinion.
<geirdal> but is video more art the interactive video?
<geirdal> than
<OvenWerks> I don't know, but not the same thing... I think.
<geirdal> but would studio not gain from it to have game developers, they use alot af software in the studio
<OvenWerks> I would not be making such a decision anyway.... but, I will say, that would just be asking to fill the #ubuntustudio game players asking how to do this and that... and being disapointed :)
<geirdal> cant they have their own channel?
<geirdal> something like #ubuntustudio-games?
<autumna> OvenWerks: geirdal: I would argue that development is part of game, it is hard to split it. besides I have recently seen contemporary art pieces (no not games) made in unity. so it is really hard to split game creation/design from the rest of the arts
<autumna> besides an integral part of game design, is the level/interaction, which can't be simplified into graphics.
<autumna> (re gamers: I would think having a ubuntu gaming channel, for all ubuntu flavors would make a lot more sense. I am not sure if there is any specific issues or challenges or tips for ubuntu studio to play games) 
<geirdal> may
<geirdal> maybe not games but with a game engine you can make interactive art
<autumna> I would say that there is a difference between interactive art and game. and there is both. interactive art, and art games
<autumna> these are definitely two categories with overlap. 
<geirdal> yes it is
<autumna> I don't know I am not sure it makes sense to me to split of "game development" tools as not art tools, when we have audio development tools, and visual art development tools. *shrugs*
<geirdal> it should be under graphics
<geirdal> but games are like video, uses audio and graphics 
<autumna> and interactivity which is its own thing
<geirdal> yes of course
<autumna> like where do you put:http://twinery.org/
<geirdal> I see what you mean but oil colors can be used to paint advertising sign and create art
<geirdal> what is the diffrence
<autumna> that's not the same thing through. when you paint an oil painting of a word, that still is a whole with its dimensions, and visual elements and commentary
<autumna> vs IFFs are literally just the text. (well some aren't but that is another story) 
<OvenWerks> All of these things do make sense (in my limited knowledge of the area) and it is not an easy thing for me to see. I have seen so many IRC queries already "I can't get the audio in <game> to work What do I do?" and I find out these are people running vanilla... and I am asking why did you come here? "someone sent me".  :P
<autumna> this is not a clear cut problem at all, don't be mistaken. (same with where does game become art) I am arguing here. :)  
<autumna> irc queries in ubuntustudio?
<OvenWerks> yes
<autumna> yeah well they can definitely ask, just like they can ask desktop related questions like how do I get my networking to work. 
<geirdal> ovenWerks: should the answer not to be: go see the project webside?
<autumna> they simply come to their distro as starting point, because for a user I am not sure it is always clear what the problem is. 
<OvenWerks> quite honestly I do not have the time to spend answering anything about games. I don't really enjoy that kind of thing... coding is so much more challenging.
<autumna> (oh hi ovenwerks)
<autumna> is there a place we can reroute them to? the way we forward package specific problems?
<OvenWerks> geirdal: yes, once I find that out what they are after... a lot are just asking about audio for another flavour, not about playing games on studio.
<OvenWerks> Sometimes I find out after getting them half way through a jack install set up :)
<OvenWerks> That I should be sending them back to the flavour that they are running
<geirdal> but can it not be clear that game questions are on some other channel?
<OvenWerks> The number of questions I get about what SW should I use to rip cd/dvd after I have told them I am not interested in helping them do so is anoying. Most of them insisting that of course I do these things too.
<geirdal> or are they thinking that this is the right place because it is so comlicated to them?
<OvenWerks> People do not read topics
<geirdal> ok
<OvenWerks> I have found that there is generally a wide gap between artists or developers and consummers. I would rather deal with the former... but maybe I am just getting old and crotchety ;)
<autumna> lol
<geirdal> hahaha
<autumna> well artists are also consummers in this case?
<geirdal> maybe Iam not talking about game engine for game player but for interactive art?
<OvenWerks> Yes, but... They are also developers in a sense too. They are making things they expect other people to enjoy.
<autumna> well.. 
<geirdal> all artist are making things they expect other people to enjoy.
<autumna> I guess. I think I assume developers involving making something interactive. but where do we pull the line. 
<autumna> (I think I missed a couple lines of the chat)
<geirdal> thats another question, where is the line?
<OvenWerks> There is a large group of people who buy computers to play games. Many of them are not very smart and if they have used another OS with comertial games they have expectations of how things work. Many of them are on the younger end of things and are the younger people who have not learned how to interact with people. If they want something to work they tend to be pushy as if they had paid for something and somehow the person they are talk
<OvenWerks> I think that is what I have been trying to say all along. I personally don't like dealing with game player who need help. That really has nothing to do with what SW we should have.
<autumna> I would actually caution against calling gamers not very smart. as a category. (actually this goes for any type of audience). also gamers on PCs tends to be power users, which is where the problem sometimes occurs, because they need to really use a lot more on a desktop so to speak. not wanting to deal with those questions because it is not the topic of ubuntu studio is a different issue
<autumna> we could have a policy to redirect such questions to main ubuntu channels, and winehq/playonlinux if they are using wine
<autumna> I have yet to run into a game specific problem on native linux games, but then again, I haven't been doing that much gaming on linux so far
<OvenWerks> yes, I am talking about the ones who have showed up here. There are some very intelgent people who play and or develop games. but I think also some of the dumbest ones are there as well...
<geirdal> but how can you stop stuoid people to come here and ask questions?
<autumna> *shrugs* silly questions happens to anyone, and it is normal, so is frustrated people. 
<OvenWerks> can't, what I am saying I personally would prefer not to hang up a sign that might say "try here".
<autumna> I think the main issue really is that we are not a gaming focused distro, nor have the resources to deal with gaming specific questions, which gets back to, maybe there needs to be a community to ask questions that are game installation/playing specific. (if there isn't already)
<OvenWerks> And I must strees this is all very personal opinion. I am not at all trying to make my personal feels STudio policy
<geirdal> of course
<OvenWerks> If there is a general feeling that game engine development should be supported, I would not say no.
<autumna> OvenWerks I understand. :) frankly I don't think there is a lot of gamers in this devel group, and even if there was, that goes back to, this needs to be rerouted ideally. ;D 
 * OvenWerks has a daugher in law who has developed games and graphics for them. I am actually quite proud of her. And no she is not dumb.
<autumna> as for game development tools this is something I was planning to bring up for 17.04. ;D but then again it is up to the whole group. 
<autumna> OvenWerks: that's awesome. (AAA games? or indie games?)
<OvenWerks> we do already have some tools that are advertised as game graphics development tools.
<autumna> I don't think blender counts. (blender is like "we do EVERYTHING!" tool) 
<autumna> :P
<autumna> but true
<OvenWerks> I am not sure about what my DIL was working withI think they ended up on cartridges.
<autumna> ah
<autumna> speaking of development tools
<autumna> is there a precendent as to how tools/software that doesn't exactly require installation are handled?
<OvenWerks> Synfig is the one I was thinking of, but I am seeing their home page is much more rounded than the last time I looked.
<autumna> wait synfig.. game development????? 
<geirdal> no
<OvenWerks> Graphics for games.
<geirdal> prototyping in blender! yes but not synfig
<geirdal> so does Gimp, Krita
<OvenWerks> But it has been a long time since I really looked, I could be mistaken.
<autumna> yeah I think it is pretty much plain animation tool, not sure if they have any gaming specific aspects to it, but then again, I never got around to using synfig
<geirdal> I know synfig. very hard tool to use
<autumna> I have a bad habit to code, when things get complex, rather than use conventional animation tools
<autumna> geirdal: I only superficially experimented with it so can't exactly comment 
<geirdal> I dont use it, Hate it
<autumna> heh
<autumna> but yeah I am kind of curious if it would be possible, (later, not like next release) to somehow add processing and p5js editors in 
<autumna> on one hand people can just download and run(well processing, p5js editor requires npm and linux version isn't ready yet) on other hand, it is pretty basic tool for electronic artists and it is weird that it US doesn't come with it. 
<autumna> just another thing to think about
<geirdal> yes! digital artist needs to be at least a little bit of coder
<autumna> :)))
<OvenWerks> I've been (sometimes vocally) hoping for more graphics people to come along... so when they do I would also like to get out of the way and let them work at what they know and I don't.
<autumna> well it seems now we have 3! at least, and different focuses too which is great. 
<geirdal> :)
<autumna> I think part of it is that, we don't need the low latency kernel, which means it is not as crucial for a graphic artist to use ubuntu studio, but a) it is great to have the audio setup in hand if need be b) pretty and lightweight is nice. 
<autumna> (I suppose pretty part is very personal preference thing)
<geirdal> autum: wellspoken
<autumna> :)
<autumna> (and geirdal you might not know this but OvenWerks, is a veritable information source for anything audio related)
<geirdal> ye s He told me yesterday, 
<OvenWerks> lowlatency no, running in performance rather than ondemand supposedly speeds up rendering a noticable amount.
<autumna> oh really????
 * autumna had no idea
<OvenWerks> That is one of the tools that should be added to -controls.
<autumna> wait, the default of US is performance or ondemand? *newbie question*
<OvenWerks> The graphics part of things is one of the reasons we don't want to go default RT kernel.
<OvenWerks> it ends up in ondemand.
<autumna> *listens*
<autumna> I see
<OvenWerks>  It is one of the things that an Ardour install from ardour.org flags. Most of us who actuall do audio at all have changed system files...
<OvenWerks>  or installed cadence
<OvenWerks> (not in our repos)
<autumna> *nods*
<autumna> so ideally a user would be able to change it back and forth, based on what they are doing?
<OvenWerks> The problem with changing it on startup is that the system comes along about 60 sec after start up and returns it to ondemand.
<OvenWerks> Yes.
<OvenWerks> (has to be done for each cpu core)
 * autumna goes to find if we have a controls blueprint yet
<autumna> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntustudio-y-development is this something we want to add here?
<autumna> or not yet?
<OvenWerks> The interesting (for audio) is that I get better "performance" forcing the cpu speed to stay at 800Mhz than letting ondemand raise and lower the speed. It seems I get xruns at the point ondemand slows a core down.
<OvenWerks> It should probably be on there. I am not sure what order zequence wants to add functions to it.
<autumna> its not
<OvenWerks> I think it is writen in python though, so whoever knows python well enough can do it.
<autumna> well I can add it to bottom so that we don't forget, and zequence or sakrecoer or other folks can remove/move it 
<OvenWerks> Sure.
<autumna> If I am going to deal with wacom tablet settings I will have to learn python anyway, and I think zequence wrote controls so he might be able to look into it too
<OvenWerks> -controls already has a method for getting system access for setting group and RT stuff.
<autumna> ah
 * autumna is really not familiar with the -controls code
<autumna> ok it is 3am so I am going to log off
<autumna> thanks for the great talk, and see you guys later
<autumna> :)
<geirdal> good night
<autumna> gnight
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-06-05
<geirdal> OvenWerks: Im benn thinging about what you said about the game development, and I agree! this would couse us more problems the solution. Blender game engine is good enough for interactive art anyway and that group does not use that for games in general.
<OvenWerks> geirdal: where i would see a possibility with that would be if there was someone or someones who were game devs themselves and wanted to completely take care of that. But I would suggest in that case creating a meta package instead. There are some development metas already out there, but I think nothing that really goes beyond general development.
<geirdal> agree
<geirdal>  /msg NickServ VERIFY REGISTER geirdal fuzrpumvivrw
<trebmuh> geirdal, changing your password now ? ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-30
<mchelen> any reason why ubuntustudio.org doesn't default to HTTPS?
<OvenWerks> mchelen: no idea.
<mchelen> OvenWerks: it's not great security practice, given that there are links to .iso downloads (which are also HTTP)
<OvenWerks> mchelen: that may be true, however, web page setup is not my thing. I am not sure who is doing web stuff right now.
<mchelen> OvenWerks: ok, yeah I wasn't sure where to create an issue or anything
<OvenWerks> mchelen: do you know if xubuntu's site is any different? I think the same person worked on both
<mchelen> OvenWerks: visiting http://xubuntu.org correctly redirects to https
<OvenWerks> mchelen: I will drop this coversation on the dev mailing list and see what comes from it.
<mchelen> OvenWerks: ok thanks! hopefully its just a matter of creating a redirect
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-05-31
<krytarik> OvenWerks: Given how the discussion on HTTPS (by default) on the website unfolded so far, you do know that it's available but is just not forced on the visitors yet, right?
<krytarik> So yeah, one would have to file a ticket to make it so - Xubuntu did this just recently too.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: to be honest I have paid very little attention to our website.
<OvenWerks> I am trying to spend what little time I have getting -controls finished... or at least the audio part of it.
<krytarik> Just making sure the discussion doesn't go in an awkward direction where people think HTTPS has to be enabled first. :P
<OvenWerks> The tone so far has been reasonably relaxed. Considering Ubuntu owns the server, I am sure they have https already there for it.
<OvenWerks> ifconfig
<OvenWerks> :P wrong window..
<krytarik> Yes! :D
<mchelen> krytarik: yup i saw that https is available, which is why i'm hoping all thats needed is a redirect
<mchelen> krytarik: i would have made a ticket but wasn't sure where?
<krytarik> mchelen: https://rt.ubuntu.com/ - but any such request would have to made by a trusted member of the team anyway.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-06-01
<mchelen> krytarik: ah ok
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-06-03
<Magomed-Kei> Hello, i found a fix for ardour crashing on ubuntu studio 17.04 and made a bug report
<Magomed-Kei> the fix from here: https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=16946 Worked for me, which is removing calf-ladspa package.
<Magomed-Kei> Hope this helps
<Magomed-Kei> the bug by the way is when ardour crashes when using calf plugins
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-06-04
<krytarik> Btw, I approved the comment on the website referred to in #ubuntustudio earlier today - was marked as spam, probably because of the "***ATTENTION***" :P
<OvenWerks> krytarik: no plugin should ever use gtk or QT as a gui toolkit
<krytarik> Aha.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: also, all plugins should be compiled static.
<OvenWerks> Otherwise, two plugins with a slightly different versions of the GUI lib will crash each other
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-28
<OvenWerks> huh, qjackctl has a new release.. with a hotfix. that would mean the last release is broken
<OvenWerks> yoshimi too.
<ErichEickmeyer> >_<
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, we knew yoshimi was having issues from the other day.
<ErichEickmeyer> Should we try to get an exceptional SRU for this?
<ErichEickmeyer> Looks like it's being worked on and might just need a sync request. It's failing to build in debian testing at the moment. https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/qjackctl
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-05-31
<ErichEickmeyer> We got a request on Facebook to package this: https://vcvrack.com/ . Anybody up for it?
<OvenWerks> They have added jack, good. Last time I looked it was  alsa only I think.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-06-01
<preppert> Hello.
<preppert> I wrote a handbook with the working title Ubuntu Studio for Musicians.  I am thinking about making it public domain.
<preppert> From the "contribute" page, it sounds like this might be something that might be helpful.  Please advise on what the next steps would be? 
<ErichEickmeyer> preppert: That's great! What we're really looking for is someone to joing the official documentation team for our wiki. That said, what you've got might be a good thing to bring to the table.
<preppert> I was unable to find the link to the Wiki. 
<ErichEickmeyer> preppert: Join and send an introductory email to our mailing list on https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel and include a link to your launchpad account if you have one. If you don't, then we'll need you to sign-up for one before we can get you on the documentation team.
<ErichEickmeyer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio is the official wiki.
<preppert> Sure, I think I might be able to help.  Could I tell you a bit more about what's in the handbook? 
<ErichEickmeyer> Sure!
<preppert> I attempted to go through most of the audio software that comes out of the box.  It also has a little background on sythesis.
<ErichEickmeyer> Excellent. Any chance you can go into detaili on the mailing list?
<preppert> And there are reviews of freeware VST instruments.  A short section on what Mastering is.  So this is for someone who hasn't used Ubuntu and is pretty new to home recording.
<ErichEickmeyer> Yes! This is valuable.
<preppert> Oh - sure.  I will get all that set up later today.  
<ErichEickmeyer> Perfect!
<preppert> Won't bug you further. 
<ErichEickmeyer> No worries! Glad to have you (hopefully) join the team!
<preppert> Thanks for the encouragement and pointers. 
<ErichEickmeyer> Of course! It's nice to have someone writing about Ubuntu Studio. To get you on the documentation team with that kind of writing and know-how is a win for us!
<preppert> I have been using Ubuntu Studio a long time and this would be a great way of giving back. 
<preppert> Also...something like a little handbook appears to be sort of missing, unless I just couldn't find it? 
<ErichEickmeyer> Well, thank you! I have to go now, but thanks!
<preppert> Bye. 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-06-02
<OvenWerks> No meeting this week... no real new stuff with controls. But the end is near because jackdbus is less stable than it has been in the past so a restart is required for any change... easy to do.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-06-03
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: That makes sense. You can't even change periods per buffer without a restart.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: Should be able to, but that is not something one normally changes anyway and not something -controls offers at this point. (the GUI doesn't anyway)
<OvenWerks> switchmaster in jackdbus is supposed to allow a complete reconfiguration of the backend including changing the backend itself.
<OvenWerks> So it should be paoosible to switch from alsa to firewire, 44k1 to 48k, 2 periods to 3 and the buffer from 1024 to 128.... all at the same time.
<OvenWerks> changing the buffer size has always been possible on the fly even in jackd1
<OvenWerks> However, even though some applications like patchage and guitarix allow the user to change this on the fly, there are some jackd clients that do not catch this change and deal with it like Phasex.
<OvenWerks> Changing SR on the fly is something a synth might deal with correctly, but a DAW should not even try.
<OvenWerks> I am guessing this is the point. There may indead be some clients that do not deal with any change well. Even a change in output device can mean a change in ports used.
<OvenWerks> I may leave the SM in for plugging a USB device, but remove all others. Auto routing the pulse outputs and reconnecting them seems to work ok.
<OvenWerks> Anything that does not require changing the jack backend is ok as well. So plugging in a USB mic (or three) will just work
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's perfect, and yes, having a DAW change, specifically, the SR would be a bad idea. From personal experience, the results aren't pretty. One time I accidentally switched the SR of my mixer/interface while it was connected and with jack running. The results weren't pretty.
<OvenWerks> ErichEickmeyer: right, so any parameter change should restart, but if we can change backend device and reconnect without restart that would be nice.
<ErichEickmeyer> In an ideal world, yes. I've seen DAWs competely freak-out with that too.
<ErichEickmeyer> OvenWerks: Once you feel it's ready for testing, I'd love to do a blog post about it with screenshots touting the new features.
<OvenWerks> K, I will see what I can do this week. Considering I will be doing a lot more restarting... I will actually be removing stuff.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-28
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Sorry about that, had to go do some chores.
<Eickmeyer> Speaking of MuseScore, I had looked at upgrading it to 3, but looks like that's already in progress and I should probably leave well-enough alone: https://musescore.org/en/node/281650
<Eickmeyer> Seems like we have a lot being held-up because of the freeze in Debian.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: should we have another PPA for releases that are not yet into debian/ubuntu
<OvenWerks> Backports are current release that older releases use.
<Eickmeyer> ubuntustudio-ppa/extras?
<OvenWerks> new or proposed I think
<OvenWerks> extras is for sw debian/ubuntu will never have
<OvenWerks> or at least are not contemplating right now
 * OvenWerks is trying to think logically
<Eickmeyer> Yeah.
<Eickmeyer> Sorry, phone call.
<Eickmeyer> Never a dull moment.
<Eickmeyer> ubuntustudio-ppa/incoming?
<OvenWerks> That would work for me yes
 * OvenWerks has to get ready to take his Yf to work.
<OvenWerks> Oh, one last thing. Are we going to also try releasing the rest of the packages fairly soon?
<OvenWerks> _controls, -menu, default-settings and (brimming with hope) menu-add
<OvenWerks> I think menu-adds selling point is that it is the least intrusive menu manipulation tool available
<OvenWerks> I am still waiting for Wimpress and bluesabre for new versions of their menu editors as well.
<OvenWerks> but think menu-add is important enough to release
<OvenWerks> It makes almost no assumptions about the system or DE
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I was planning on releasing -default-setings, but that's about it for now. Do you want to release -controls?
<OvenWerks> how else will they get testing?
<OvenWerks> Unless someone does some testing on -controls and menu-add and finds some bugs, I figure they are done for the cycle
<Eickmeyer> Nah, I'll go ahead and do the release.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Just released -default-settings -controls, and -menu to Eoan.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like I'll need to bump the version number for -controls.
<OvenWerks> yes, all of the packages need a version bump to release
<OvenWerks> That is what keeps autobuilds and real releases in sync
<OvenWerks> in fact it may be worth while turning auto builds off on released packages until at least one change has been made.
<OvenWerks> one change beyond release
<Eickmeyer> Well, in this case the only reason I need to version bump is because Ross had already bumped for -controls when he pushed it the other day. So, the new changes will start with 1.8.1.
<OvenWerks> falktx says he is just releaseing new jack2
<Eickmeyer> Cool. I think that syncs from Debian?
<OvenWerks> ok.
<OvenWerks> it should... but who knows when... something for incoming already...
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio-ppa/incoming I should say
<Eickmeyer> Right. I'm a little leery of putting that in though since it's not a simple application, but an entire audio backend.
<OvenWerks> I think the big deal is that it is now fully compatable with jack1... so includes a2jmidid and maybe even zita-ajbridging.
<OvenWerks> though to be honest, the zita-ajbridging is maybe better separate anyway unless they can be added and removed without shutting jack down and restarting.
<OvenWerks> in incoming should be ok. It is not a ppa people should hook up to by default though
<Eickmeyer> Ok. I'll work on making incoming a thing at least.
<OvenWerks> backports yes, auto never :)
<OvenWerks> Wiht autobuilds I tend to DL the package I want and dpkg -i it.
<Eickmeyer> Ah. I see.
<OvenWerks> People are not yet used to backports... the use of other PPAs should be a slow learn thing
<OvenWerks> autobuilds is for testing only, not for daily use.
<OvenWerks> backports is for releases.
<Eickmeyer> Yes.
<OvenWerks> incoming is for sw that has been released elsewhere but has not made it through the debian gauntlet
<Eickmeyer> Makes sense.
<OvenWerks> The idea of backports and incoming is to allow people to remain on a LTS release but still have up to date media development software
<OvenWerks> so the desktop and OS are known to be stable and supported.
<OvenWerks> with backports and incoming, we take over the the support.
<OvenWerks> (untill next LTS)
<Eickmeyer> Right. What's nice is that the IRC support team in #ubuntu is willing to support Studio 18.04 as long as Backports is enabled.
<Eickmeyer> Back in a bit.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-29
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I went ahead and uploaded -look to eoan as well since it changes the default back to the generic Ubuntu Studio walpaper that eylul- made and makes the disco wallpapers a separate package.
<OvenWerks> That makes sense
<OvenWerks> It means a tester can see a difference right away
<Eickmeyer> Yep.
<OvenWerks> BTW what is an Eoan anyway?
<Eickmeyer> Eoan Ermine is the official codename. An ermine is a weasel-like creature, and eoan is an adjective having to do with the east, or the dawn.
<Eickmeyer> So, an easterly or dawn-related ermine.
<OvenWerks> ah, ok. Ya the ermin makes sense
<Wimpress> OvenWerks: I discussed uploading Mozo with the mate-panel Depends: changed to a Suggests:
<Wimpress> Are you planning on switching to Mozo? 
<Wimpress> For the purposes of testing Mozo can be installed via apt using `--no-install-recommends` to make sure it works for you. 
<OvenWerks> Wimpress: thanks, it still installs a group of mate packages: libmate-menu2 mate-menus python-mate-menu but that may be because this laptop installs mozo 1.12 and the latest is 1.20. I will have to install 19.10 iso and try again. There are things that don't work and warnings in the terminal but like I say 1.12 
<OvenWerks> I will check with the newer one tomorrow.
<OvenWerks> mozo (v1.12) does not show in my menu because the desktop file has: OnlyShowIn=MATE;
<OvenWerks> so I run from terminal
 * OvenWerks is off to bed
<Wimpress> OvenWerks: So `mate-menus` is required, so is the library that provides XDG compliant processing of .desktop files.
<Wimpress> I could add `OnlyShowIn=MATE;XFCE;` to the desktop file.
<Wimpress> I'd like you to test on 19.10 before I make any changes though.
<Wimpress> Testing against 16.04 is not going to highlight the issues you should expect to encounter.
<OvenWerks> Wimpress: ya, don't make changes just yet. DLing 19.10
<scotify> hey all, I was here about a week ago asking about contributing. I've done some reading and set up a workstation. I'm looking for some starter/test projects to get familiarized with packaging.
<scotify> any suggestions would be great!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-30
<Eickmeyer> scotify: One of the things on my to-do list is to create and document some test git repos for people to play around with.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the slide show is now quite outdated.
<OvenWerks> (install slideshow
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's also on my to-do list. Luckily we can get that done anytime between now and final freeze.
<Eickmeyer> I did update the general screenshot.
<OvenWerks> The first slide shows the old backdrop, the second to last show usc (I think) and the last one seems to show an older website... well maybe our web site is as old as what is shown :)
 * Eickmeyer is syncing his ISO images
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Uh... you must have the 18.04 slideshow. We can't update that.
<Eickmeyer> The 19.04 slideshow has the new backdrop.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: this is the fresh eoin daily
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: ^^ ?
<Eickmeyer> I sent cyphermox the file and he updated it.
<OvenWerks> I may be wrong about USC, gnome software looks very similar
<Eickmeyer> I'll test once I have the ISO.
<Eickmeyer> It's probably gnome software. I didn't screenshot USC.
<Eickmeyer> Our slideshow is inside ubiquity-slideshow, which isn't a package we have direct upload access to (even if we had packageset, requires a core developer since it's in main).
<OvenWerks> Ya I know that part. actually it may only be the very first slide that is out of date
<OvenWerks> Our website just hasn't changed for a while.
<OvenWerks> we seem to have lost all our graphic artists
<Eickmeyer> This is true. The screenshot overview shouldn't be out of date. If it is, then I have questions and I want answers. >:(
<Eickmeyer> eylul should be back next month sometime.
<OvenWerks> we did change the the back drop late in the game...
<Eickmeyer> Doesn't matter. When Eoan opened, it was a direct sync of Disco, a week after release.
<OvenWerks> The backdrop is right on the d3esktop, but not in the slide show
<OvenWerks> The slide show is the same as 18.04
<OvenWerks> ( the first slide of the slideshow)
<OvenWerks> it is not disco.
<OvenWerks> Not worth fixing at this point for disco, but we should maybe work on a new backdrop ofr the current cycle
<Eickmeyer> Uh, I have seen with my very eyes that the one in Disco is correct.
<Eickmeyer> It's a screenshot of the backdrop that was used in 18.10.
<OvenWerks> if that is correct that is fine
<OvenWerks> it is not a screen shot of 19.04 (which it should be)
<Eickmeyer> But you don't see that in Eoan?
<OvenWerks> I was about to screen shot it but it finished on me :P
<Eickmeyer> It should be a screenshot of 19.04 with 18.10's backdrop.
<OvenWerks> It is the one with the COF in it, but similar BG to disco
<OvenWerks> could be.
<OvenWerks> That makes sense
<Eickmeyer> Yes, then that's correct. I didn't want it to be the exact Disco Dingo wallpaper since it would be used for future releases (since it's realllllllly hard to update that).
<OvenWerks> OK
<OvenWerks> Maybe we should use the right screen BG then
<Eickmeyer> In my opinion, we shouldn't be updating that slideshow every release.
<Eickmeyer> cyphermox: False alarm.
<OvenWerks> Then may not have a screen shot of the backdrop because the backdrop will look old very quickly
<OvenWerks> *maybe
<OvenWerks> The slideshow may be better with more generic material
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I was thinking we'd update if it's 1) a drastic change, or 2) an LTS.
<OvenWerks> ok
<Eickmeyer> The default disco wallpaper isn't that far off, and the wallpaper pictured is included.
<Eickmeyer> In fact, it should revert back to that wallpaper in a couple days, once -default-settings gets out of proposed.
<OvenWerks> I only mentioned it because my first thought was this looks wrong. I have one backdrop on my screen and a picture of another in the slide show.
 * OvenWerks goes off to reboot
<Eickmeyer> Oh, I understand. You're the only person that has mentioned it, including every review I've watched, so far.
<Eickmeyer> Though, I do understand why.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: maybe most people choose the grub install option to install. I always choose the live option and install from there
<OvenWerks> With the install option the installer sits in front of the centre of the screen so maybe it is not so obvious
<OvenWerks> besides I'm picky :P
 * OvenWerks has to remember his throwaway password for test installs ...
<Eickmeyer> The grub install option does, in fact, open up a X11 environment with our default theme and Ubiquity running, so people would see.
<Eickmeyer> hehe
<OvenWerks> Yes, but it puts the installer right in front of the logo. so the outside of the screen is harder to see... or they just don't think it is significant
<OvenWerks> I normally spend some timelooking at some things to see that the live os is ok.
<Eickmeyer> They'd be able to see the edges of the dingo.
<OvenWerks> yes, I guess many people find the slide show boring and go do other things.. I don't know really.
<OvenWerks> focus is wrong (for me) I look for bad/wrong things
<Eickmeyer> Meh. I want to update the other pieces of it, too.
 * OvenWerks likes focus follows mouse
<Eickmeyer> Focus follows mouse isn't default, though, and people aren't used to that.
<Eickmeyer> Er, MOST people. Not you, obviously.
<Eickmeyer> My bad. Eoan's default wallpaper will change once -look is done syncing.
<Eickmeyer> It's in proposed right now.
<OvenWerks> OK
<OvenWerks> Wimpress: just installed mozo on 19.10 and am gettingthe same error line on the commandlineevery time I do anything: (mozo:22527): CRITICAL **: 17:36:48.872: matemenu_tree_get_root_directory: assertion 'tree->loaded' failed
<OvenWerks> Wimpress: also the Menus: column does not match the menu on the system (I would note that 1.12 I was trying last night on 15.04 did show the correct menu as on the system)
<OvenWerks> sorry 16.04
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: oh my goodness gimp now defaults to single window  :P
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Wow! It didn't do that on 19.04!
<OvenWerks> I can't sftp into my server from here either. It does not open a user/password dialog it just gets refused.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: what all bits did we take out of the de?
<Eickmeyer> The indicator-* stuff (indicator-sound among them). The ISO you downloaded might not be updated with the spin.
<OvenWerks> Hmm, I am wondering why thunar doesn't do ftps anymore
<Eickmeyer> Ross and I only uploaded that stuff yesterday, so it'll take stuff migrating from proposed.
<OvenWerks> so it should be the same and work.
<Eickmeyer> bluesabre: Any ideas? ^
<OvenWerks> got it.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Might have dropped ftps in favor of sftp? I'm speculating.
<OvenWerks> I probably had it backwards.
<Eickmeyer> Ah.
<Eickmeyer> sftp is ftp over ssh.
<Eickmeyer> ftps is ftp with ssl encryption. sftp is stronger.
<OvenWerks> I think I tried sfpt by mistake and went in my head, maybe the s is on the end...
<Eickmeyer> If you use sftp then you'd log-in with ssh credentials.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: and heres why:
<OvenWerks> Wimpress: here is the system menu and mozo side by side http://www.ovenwerks.net/paste/mozo-screen.png
<OvenWerks> Wimpress: as you can see mozo does not follow the xdg menu as it is in use
<OvenWerks> Wimpress: for reference, Studio points xdg root to /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio.
<OvenWerks> (xubuntu does similar BTW)
<OvenWerks> Wimpress: in /etc/xdg/xdg-ubuntustudio/menus/ there is xfce-applications.menu which we had to modify because the stock one in /etc/xdg/menus/ is broken (same as gnome 2 and 3, same as lubuntu and last I checked in mate as well
<OvenWerks> Wimpress: the problem being that the flow of checking should be: DE installed default, which can be overriden distro which can be overriden by the user. The default menu configuration reads in user and extra menus first and then overrides with the system config... ie backwards.
<OvenWerks> kubuntu gets it right BTW
<OvenWerks> Studio has A) modified the system menu config to be correct (one line correction) and B) added etc/xdg/menus/applications-merged/studio.menu which _should_ override the system file. (in Studio it does)
<OvenWerks> The XDG spec does actually say that overrides should go in this order in the document text but the sample menu config file is incorrect.
<OvenWerks> This is why Studio has rejected alacart and menulibre
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: He's in the UK, so he'll get this when he's awake and/or at work (he works for Canonical).
<OvenWerks> not a problem, I may not be around or watching at the time.
<OvenWerks> Kmenu doesn't offer anything for us either
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the more I look, the more I am sure that menu-add will cause us the least amount of trouble.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It might be worth working with the upstream developers on this for the XDG compliance. bluesabre is the maintainer of Menulibre and leads Xubuntu, so he might be able to help.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: help is not the problem. Getting people to actually follow xdg is something else.
<Eickmeyer> That's what I mean.
<bluesabre> I'm definitely open to suggestions... a big problem is that the desktops seems to do xdg, with a twist
<bluesabre> and the twists add up... in gnome-menu, garcon, etc etc :)
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: I am thinking that our (very) simple applet that merely creates new desktop files might be the best route for us to follow.
<OvenWerks> It does not require following the snake of files and paths required to aqurately mapout all the menu config files in the system and user paths.
<bluesabre> yeah, in most cases that's definitely the way to go
<bluesabre> originally, menulibre just created and edited desktop files, and left the menus to sort themselves with just the categories
<OvenWerks> basically our menu-add applet is just a wrapper for exo-desktop-item-edit
<OvenWerks> It does allow adding some carefully picked catagories that will place it in certain places of our menu.
<bluesabre> sounds sensible
<OvenWerks> these catagories are reasonable enough the applet will "proabbly" work ok in some other places as well.
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: the biggest trouble we have had have been people who have used some menueditor to add a menu item and come for help because "all the menus I had before have gone!"
<bluesabre> Yeah, definitely seen those sorts of issues in the past
<OvenWerks> in these cases it means having them look in various directories (froma terminal) for some files one of us knows about abd removing them :P
<bluesabre> I've thought about adding a reset button to menulibre in the past, which would drop user menu layout changes (leaving lauchers)
<bluesabre> the failsafe undo button :)
<OvenWerks> unfortunately almost all of the system menu config files in /etc/xdg/menus/*application.menu are incorrect.
<OvenWerks> See my explaination above for more, but basically most of them besides kde have the system menu override the user modifications rather than the user modifications overriding the system.
<OvenWerks> The fix is a one line fix, but any of the DEs I have put a bug against have been marked invalid/won't fix
<bluesabre> Xfce/Xubuntu/Studio included?
<OvenWerks> xfce stock, Studio is fixed. (or it wouldn't work :)
<bluesabre> being the "menu guy", I think garcon is kind of in my maintainership area these days
<OvenWerks> xubuntu may have fixed it.
<bluesabre> Link me and I'll see about getting an upstream fix in place
<OvenWerks> stock xfce file is bad in 19.10
<OvenWerks> it is easy to see. in the /etc/xdg/menus/xfce-applications.menu file <DefaultMergeDirs/>
<OvenWerks> is almost at the top of the file.
<OvenWerks> (Line 9) it should be pretty much just before the last </Menu> tag, although KDE puts there logout item below to make sure the user doesn't kill it :)
<OvenWerks> The unfortunate part is that while the xdg spec does say that the flow is from system to user and that the user shold be ale to override the system, the sample file they have is also wrong :P
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> Can you post a diff for the change? I'll submit a bug and assign it to myself... should land it before 4.14pre2 ;)
<OvenWerks> I can do that, do you want it for xfce itself? or xubuntu (i would have to look in xubuntu-default-settings (I think) to see if it is right
<OvenWerks> There should already be a bug in there, I will see if I can find them and pass them back to you as I am sure I gave a patch with the bug reports
<bluesabre> Xfce at least, but both if you want  :) xubuntu-default-settings is correct
<bluesabre> Yeah, if you already have bug reports, even better :)
<OvenWerks> OK, I will do that when I am back to my "norrmal working partitions"
<OvenWerks> Time to reboot.
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: the bug goes back a ways :)  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/garcon/+bug/1213518
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1213518 in garcon (Ubuntu) "xfce-applications.menu merges in a non-standard way. default overrides merge" [Low,Confirmed]
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: I don't seem to have created a bug report for xubuntu.
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: looking at: https://git.launchpad.net/xubuntu-default-settings/tree/etc/xdg/xdg-xubuntu/menus/xfce-applications.menu
<OvenWerks> this one looks correct.
<OvenWerks> so xubuntu has the correct file and xfce does not.
<bluesabre> OvenWerks: thanks, will move that along :)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I just did some cleaning on the packaging for -menu-add. Looks good. Do we want to get this uploaded to eoan, or did you want to fix those bugs in the ./BUGS file? Either way, it'll need sponsoring, then I'll have to apply for PPU access to it.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the only two left are nice to have features
<Eickmeyer> Ok, I'll try to get the ball rolling (we all know how this goes... :/ ).
<OvenWerks> We could chonge the name of BUGS to Roadmap or something.
<Eickmeyer> That might be preferable. I'm worried that somebody is going to see it and go, "You should fix those bugs first."
 * Eickmeyer will make that changed
<OvenWerks> you can even remove that file if you want.
<Eickmeyer> NOW you tell me! XD
 * Eickmeyer had accidentally removed it
 * Eickmeyer then reverted it
<Eickmeyer> hahahaha
<Eickmeyer> I'll leave it as roadmap for now.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-05-31
<Eickmeyer> Wait.. did eylul get her IRC client fixed?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-26
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[kde]: should you care :)  "07:32 < rgareus> dvzrv: new deps since 5.12 are libreadline-dev, libwebsockets-dev and libpulse-dev"
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Thanks, I'll keep that in mind in case I have to do it. I'm hoping somebody in Debian does it, otherwise that is a very large can of worms.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-27
<OvenWerks> I know, just passing the info as I see it.
<Eickmeyer> I'm actually surprised nobody in Fedora has started on it yet. They're usually on top of stuff.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Added a slight white outer glow to studio-controls' icon to increase its visibility on dark themes
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: happy Launch day...
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: might be an idea to mention in one of the web pages to never use root to trouble shoot audio problems
<RikMills> Eickmeyer: not sure if you saw on telegram, but https://i.imgur.com/NtKlsng.png
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, but which one?
<Eickmeyer> RikMills: I saw, I've been considering it.
<OvenWerks> release notes?
<OvenWerks> something hard to miss
<Eickmeyer> People miss the release notes like crazy.
<OvenWerks>  :)
<OvenWerks> maybe detect if controls is running as user root and put up a dialog that says we can't run this way yada yada
<Eickmeyer> What on earth told him he needed to run controls a s root? *facepalm*
<OvenWerks> controls, qjackctl, jack, autojack, dbus, etc.
<OvenWerks> it is a pretty common trouble shooting technique in the linux (and windows) world to try things as root if problems occure
<Eickmeyer> Well, yes, but my gosh.
<Eickmeyer> What he said was he thought it *had* to be run as root.
<OvenWerks> I have seen this enough, here and #ardour, to think setting a warning in -controls just makes sense
<Eickmeyer> Agreed.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-28
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: is our iso supposed to be borked? (downloaded at 7am)
<OvenWerks> The boot screen doesn't seem to have any menu... or at least any text on the menu.
<OvenWerks> when it did boot it seems to have decided to use safe graphics mode.
<OvenWerks> does not believe I have two displays.
<OvenWerks> Anyway trying an install.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's a known issue in gfxboot at the moment, xnox and vorlon have been working on it.
<OvenWerks> k
<Eickmeyer> UEFI boot looks as expected.
<OvenWerks> I expect it would want to install as uefi as well then?
<Eickmeyer> You can give it a shot. It installs however it was booted.
 * OvenWerks is not sure what that would do to his partition table
<Eickmeyer> It's not possible if you're using MBR still.
<OvenWerks> hu time to restart.. back in a minute or ten
<OvenWerks> startup features non-pymouth streaming of logs :) that may be because of how I did grub, this is not the first entry.
<OvenWerks> for some reason plasma figured out how to put the panel on thge main screen, but wants to open all applications on second screen
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I've got no clue on that one.
<OvenWerks> but at least it believes I have two screens
<Eickmeyer> Plasma is pretty good at remembering where you put windows too.
<OvenWerks> Konsole has vanished from favourites
<Eickmeyer> That might have been my doing.
<Eickmeyer> ctrl-alt-T is nice though.
<Eickmeyer> (can fix)
<OvenWerks> :)
 * OvenWerks is not good at remembering keyboard short cuts
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the one complaint I have about the installer... it seems to think all Canadians have french canaian keyboards by default. The old US keyboard is probably correct for most canadians. (it chooses keyboard by IP)
<OvenWerks> None of the computer stores (that I am aware of) even sell french canadian keyboards... the only one I have ever seen is an old one they were throwing out at Canada Post
<OvenWerks> I think they have to be secially ordered... or maybe they are common in Quebec (pronouced Kabek by those who live there)
<Eickmeyer> tsimonq2: ^
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I'm not sure that's something we can fix.
<OvenWerks> It is an anoyance to 80% (at least) of all Canadians
<Eickmeyer> Probably file an issue: https://github.com/calamares/calamares
<OvenWerks> The old installer has it right
<Eickmeyer> I cant fix the branding in the old installer.
<OvenWerks> I know.
<OvenWerks> I am not suggesting going back
<Eickmeyer> The Calamares developers are pretty open to bug reports and seem to be responsive.
<Eickmeyer> The Ubuntu Foundations team is less than responsive when it comes to anything that doesn't affect Desktop, Server, Cloud, or IoT.
<OvenWerks> There are 128 open issues
<Eickmeyer> Most of those are feature requests.
<Eickmeyer> And all of them have been responded to.
<OvenWerks> zynsubaddfx... the alsa version is no longer in the menu but the OSS version is?
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that seems odd. On my to-do list.
 * Eickmeyer has the feeling the .desktop files changed names again.
<OvenWerks> I am not sure if we should only show the jack version or both jack and alsa
<OvenWerks> The alsa version will block the device unless it connects to the pulse default device.
<Eickmeyer> I've been working on getting mudita24 into Fedora this morning. Package was reviewed last week but no further info. I finally got someone to work on it this week.
<OvenWerks> Oh and I get the real time warning... I think you mentioned that
<Eickmeyer> Yep, but I fixed that. I didn't get that issue in my latest test install.
<Eickmeyer> I know the real time warning exists for the live session.
<OvenWerks> no this was after install, so maybe fixed on todays? (I downloaded at 7am so maybe before todays iso was spun
<Eickmeyer> It was fixed the other day. I'll do another test run and see what's up.
<OvenWerks> it could have something to do with the bad ISO boot to live too
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, could be.
<Eickmeyer> I'll investigate later. I'm knee-deep in Fedora stuff today.
<OvenWerks> no rush, big job switching installer, de, etc.
<Eickmeyer> It only took me a month. :P
<OvenWerks> Thats why we started now
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yep, just tested a fresh install, did not encounter the real time warning you did.  Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<Eickmeyer> ERR:CouldNotReproduce
<Eickmeyer> I'll be digging deeper though. It's very possible that, since the "hack" to get it working is based on the bios install method, it might be limited to legacy boot.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Figured it out: Calamares was applying the "hack" to UEFI, but not to BIOS. I had to fix it so it will do both.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-29
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I triggered a rebuild of the ISO, should have a new one in about 45 minutes if you wouldn't mind testing it.
<OvenWerks> Thank you I will test tomorrow
<OvenWerks> dl now though
<Eickmeyer> It should have the Calamares fix in it.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: total failure
<OvenWerks> do you want the whole list?
<OvenWerks> The boot screen/menu is fine again \o/
<OvenWerks> (so maybe not total fail)
<OvenWerks> select live session, pymouth comes up shortly then:
<OvenWerks> In: /tmp/mountroot-fail-hook.d/scripts/init-premount/lvm2: No such file or directory
<OvenWerks> Stdin: not a typewriter
<OvenWerks> Stdin:I/O error
<OvenWerks> sound like something ran something that will only work with a terminal (like login but this is too early)
<OvenWerks> then: Unable to find a medium container in file system.
<OvenWerks> ten dumps me out to busybox
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Next try... select safe graphics mode
<OvenWerks> This does an install medium check. The check passes, so it thinks my install medium is ok
<OvenWerks> Then there are a bunch of complaints that are there and gone to fast to read
<OvenWerks> The last one being: failed unmounting /cdrom
<OvenWerks> however, the system still manages bring up the DE
<OvenWerks> \o/
<OvenWerks> Before trying to install, I wanted to try the normal boot a second time... on system shutdown, there were about 10 lines complaining about reading beyond the end of a device or file system again too fast for me to really get.
<OvenWerks> on another try, rebooting left me with a hung system and fans on full suggesting high cpu use. Power off required to get anywhere (ctl-alt-del, ctl-alt-F*, etc didn't work)
<OvenWerks> finally, I tried install. The installer came up but had a message about:
<OvenWerks> ubuntustudio can not be installed. module can not be loaded:
<OvenWerks>  * Contextualprocess@before_bootloader
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: All of this points in my mind, to a change being made in one place and something else (like initramfs?) not being updated to match.
<OvenWerks> I would think that would be done each time as a part of the image build process
<OvenWerks> but then, what do I know about cdimage building?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: It was my fix that caused the failure is what that tells me. I can revert it, thankfully. Just gotta figure it out.
<OvenWerks> the hang on reboot happened before as well, so I think that is a separate problem
<OvenWerks> but the installer did work before
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's definitely a separate problem. But, Contextualprocess@before_bootloader is the key that my fix failed.
<studiobot> <teward001> how goes guys
<studiobot> <teward001> anything that needs my attention?
<Eickmeyer> @teward001 We're actually doing OK right now. I might in the future have a few packages that will need upload, but that's a ways out.
<studiobot> <teward001> cool cool
<studiobot> <teward001> thought i'd check in :)
<studiobot> <teward001> unrelated my nvidia card in my laptop is fubar so I am stuck using the low power Intel graphics drivers
<studiobot> <teward001> can't fix it yet because i need to reup my system warranty
<studiobot> <teward001> THEN see if I can get coverage for the nvidia card heh
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-05-31
 * Eickmeyer just linked Ubuntu Studio Installer on the front page of the website
<Eickmeyer> !ubuntustudio-installer
<ubottu> Ubuntu Studio Installer is an app that can be used to add Ubuntu Studio's benefits to an existing Ubuntu (or official flavor) installation, or add additional packages. For more info, see https://ubuntustudio.org/ubuntu-studio-installer/
<Eickmeyer> And now it's on the website.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I wouldn't worry about that bug report. Some people want to argue with the developers because "They Know Better (tm)".
<Eickmeyer> Unrelated: I think I've gotten to the bottom of the issue with Calamares screwing-up the audio perms in legacy BIOS machines.
<Eickmeyer> Should know for tomorrow's daily.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I just wanted to confirm the -menu install had happened correctly (it has). I have tried doing bug reports about includes before and the responce I have got has been a brush off
<OvenWerks> so I have done as much as I can
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yeah, I don't think that person understands what -menu actually does. They referred to a "missing menu". It is going to devolve into a support request, so it's still invalid.
<OvenWerks> actually a bug report against the DE
<OvenWerks> but I think not worth it
<Eickmeyer> Right, it'll go unnoticed. Really, it depends on which menu you're using in MATE if it's going to honor XDG. The newer ones don't very well, the original one does.
<Eickmeyer> Success: All new installations of Ubuntu Studio, whether legacy BIOS or UEFI, have correct user audio permissions by default. Andy fixes from here on out for Calamares will be purely cosmetic.
<Eickmeyer> s/Andy/Any
<OvenWerks> I will download and check here too
<OvenWerks> is there any fixes to the iso live stuff? or should I expect trouble still?
<OvenWerks> iso live boot still borked
<OvenWerks> there is a new dialog pops up saying you should use a gpt or something like that
<OvenWerks> The slide show looks nice BTW
<OvenWerks> there are no hard links in the slide show like in the old slideshow last page. That is probably a good thing as the user can not bookmark it anyway
<OvenWerks> The menu already has those things
<OvenWerks> I think the install instructions (whatever they are called) should have something (even a link) to explain this new partition they want people to install.
<OvenWerks> merely having a dialog pop up and say "hey this is a good thing" doesn't really cut it.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the live iso still hangs on shutdown, can only boot with safe mode (even with intel graphics only). I think these are major stumbling blocks. Is this a problem with all the ISOs?
<OvenWerks> Ack! and the terminal steals my screen short cuts :P
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: confirm the installing user has RT rights
 * OvenWerks adds konsole to favourites
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes, the live ISO hangs at shutdown, seems to be a livecd-rootfs or casper issue (so problem with all ISOs).
<Eickmeyer> The GPT thing only applies to EFI, so it's just a warning. If EFI doesn't apply to you, GPT doesn't either.
<Eickmeyer> Can't do hardlinks in the slideshow. It's image ony.
<Eickmeyer> The install instructions? It all seems pretty clear at the partitioning section.
<Eickmeyer> I'm just going to silence myself in main because I can't do anything right.
<eylul[m]> what happened?
<Eickmeyer> They got upset when I told them we can't support what they're doing.
<Eickmeyer> Accused me of having attitude when I was just giving straight facts.
<eylul[m]> I am not seeing the backlog but.. I see
<eylul[m]> I am a firm believer that devs shouldn't be doing tech support feels guilty about not being able to step in for that
<Eickmeyer> Nobody will step-up. I just need to reign-back my role from helping to just being a moderator when things go bad.
<eylul> *nods*
<Eickmeyer> Maybe people will step-up and help each other if I keep my mouth shut.
<OvenWerks> having a really good lowlatency machine requires the one with physical access to the machine to have some basic computer hardware knowlage, I think.
<OvenWerks> PCs are not designed for lowlatency anything.
<Eickmeyer> Well, they're asking advanced stuff but showing zero skill in accomplishing their tasks.
<OvenWerks> the user has to be willing to owrk aroun d those limitations... but also needs to be willing to find out what they are on that machine
<Eickmeyer> Yep, but this particular one wants their hand held. And they're in #ubuntu right now doing the same thing and getting angry when people aren't giving them the answer they want.
<OvenWerks> if I don't feel I can hand hold someone who appears to need it, I remain silent... they will go away...
 * Eickmeyer needs to stay silent more often
<Eickmeyer> eylul: The logs seem to have updated: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/latest/%23ubuntustudio.html
