#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-27
<real_ate> ... not sure if this is the right place to ask but can anyone tell me if a mobile phone can be used as a microphone? wanna know if it is impossible or not
<kwwii> real_ate: not the right place to ask
<lucasr> hi all
<real_ate_> sorry... got disconnected there... anyone get an answer for me? 
<real_ate_> ;)
<agoliveira> real_ate_: Sorry, not what's channel is about. Check out the faq.
<real_ate_> agoliveira: thanks ;) i shall continue my search elsewhere :P
* real_ate_ goes to continue his search
<rustyl> is anyone familiar with the xmessage launch feedback protocol used by libstartup-notify?
<rustyl> Mithrandir, FYI, the matchbox crash that we see when starting an application as a dbus service is related to this protocol
<rustyl> i found a bug in libstartup-notification, but i'm a bit unclear on how this code should work
<Mithrandir> I have never looked at the code, so no.
<rustyl> seems the libstartup-notification is expecting an xmessage that looks like "add: some=value", but instead the message looks like "add: some:value"
<rustyl> that combined with some braindead code that just assumes the parsing worked out ok, and then attempts to dereference a null pointer
<rustyl> beyond the assumption that the parsing worked out fine, i'm now trying to figure out whos falt it is that the xmessage protocol has not been followed, just incase this is a symptom of something more nasty
<agoliveira> bspencer: Hi Bob. You told me once that you're providing the clock applet or am I in need of some sort of psichyatric treatment?
<bspencer> agoliveira, I haven't thought much about it
<bspencer> we could have a control panel applet for configuring it
<bspencer> and launch said applet from the marquee plugin
<bspencer> I also wondered if the marquee plugin should show a calendar drop-down when clicked
<agoliveira> bspencer: For now I'll be happy to know if this up to you or us :)
<bspencer> but it currently doesn't have an owner.  Suggestions welcome
<bspencer> agoliveira, yes, me too. 
<bspencer> It might be part of control panel... which we would cover
<bspencer> or PIM, which we wouldn't :P
<bspencer> arm-wrestle ?
<agoliveira> bspencer: I just did threw a coin and I won. Sorry: it's up to you :)
<bspencer> dang
<kwwii> hi bob, adilson...any way we can set up a pow-wow to discuss the hildon-theme-tools?
<bspencer> kwwii, pow-wow in session
<bspencer> I turn the time to kwwii 
<agoliveira> bspencer: Seriously, the PIM does not have support for it.
<bspencer> agoliveira, ok.  well at a minimum we will have a clock applet and a configuration tool in control panel
<bspencer> but no link to a dates calendar
<bspencer> sound ok?
<agoliveira>  kwwii: Hi Ken. The problem is that I'll be here in US the whole week.
<bspencer> agoliveira, coincidentally I will be too
<agoliveira> bspencer: Coool.
<bspencer> agoliveira, why is that a problem for pow-wow?
<agoliveira> bspencer: Yes but youe on you territory :)
<kwwii> bspencer: well, I downloaded the tools, ran hildon-theme-bootstrap (which creates and empty theme), added a template svg and png...how can I now build it to test it?
<kwwii> agoliveira: right, I was hoping that bspencer has an idea of how this stuff works ;-)
<bspencer> kwwii, what libraries do you need to build?
<agoliveira> No problem. JUst that Ill have a hard time to follow.
<bspencer> kwwii, I haven't done it
* bspencer says shamefully
<bspencer> I just modified an existing plankton theme in the <theme> folder
<kwwii> bspencer: I do not think I need to build any libraries, but rather create an installable deb out of the theme package I (think, hope) I created
<bspencer> kwwii, if you are asking for help with the packaging, I can 
<kwwii> bspencer: hrm, I would guess the long-run we will want to create an installable theme out of this, right?
<bspencer> certainly
<bspencer> and create tools that make the deb pkg automagically
<kwwii> to be honest, I am not sure if the hildon-theme-bootstrap will even do exactly what we want to do
<kwwii> bspencer: how did you run the slicer tool? 
<bspencer> never did
<bspencer> never started with a template
<kwwii> hehe, you really did cheat :p
<bspencer> totally
<bspencer> I figured it was pointless to embed my pics in a template when I knew they would never get used
<kwwii> bspencer: well, the template I created is a quick tweak on the plankton stuff and now I need to test it...the colors for the theme are also taken from the template file - that is the real thing to test now
<kwwii> bspencer: should I send you a tar.gz of the stuff I made? (the names and definitions are changed so it will not replace any existing theme)
<bspencer> sure
<kwwii> bspencer: I tried to find info on the maemo website and although I found a definition of pretty much every pic used I found no docs on the tools themselves
<bspencer> i recall running the same circles
<bspencer> is the slicer tool part of gutsy?
* bspencer checks
<kwwii> yes, it should be in the hildon-theme-tools package
<kwwii> at least, I got it from launchpad
<bspencer> right
<bspencer> and you can't get the slicer to work on your template?
<bspencer> installing that package now...
<kwwii> bspencer: to be honest I did not try it yet, as we need more than just that tool
<bspencer> let me remind myself of the process...
<kwwii> bspencer: there is also a tool for picking the middle color of the boxes on the right of the template and putting them in the right text file
<bspencer> 1) create a template png file (with layout file that specifies all the locations)
<kwwii> the bootstrap tool simply makes an empty package (while allowing one to enter the name, definition, author, etc directly in the terminal)
<bspencer> 2) run the slicer to create a directory of all graphics indidually
<bspencer> hm... the bootstrap comes before #1 ?
<kwwii> yepp
<kwwii> and somehow in the build process there should be some tool to call the slicer and a couple of other tools
<kwwii> at least, I assume that the slicer is only a cutter-upper as there are other tools in hildon-theme-tools 
<bspencer> well, I thought it would be:  #3) put your directory of images , you directory of icons, and your matchbox theme and gtkrc files in a folder and run "theme-to-debian-package" tool
<kwwii> bspencer: is there already a theme-debian-package-tool I am missing?
<bspencer> no
<bspencer> #3 is a manual process 
<bspencer> looking at my list of exsting tools
<kwwii> hrm, it is also important that in addition to the slicer we run at least hildon-theme-rc-parser
<bspencer> right
<bspencer> mk-bundle just seems to make a zip
<kwwii> basically, we want to cut it up, pick the right colors, make makefiles or whatever to put the files in the right places after install and then build the deb
<kwwii> yeah, I think that makes a theme which one can install without creating a deb or such
<kwwii> any idea what hildon-theme-subst does?
<kwwii> I assume it substitutes something :-)
<bspencer> maybe just change the colors magically?
<kwwii> yeah, I was not sure if the rc-parser did that
<bspencer> is Michael Dominic your friend
<bspencer> his name is on everything
<kwwii> yeah, as is my friend tuomas, but I think he is on vacation
<bspencer> Let me try out bootstrap...
<bspencer> i assume layout-4 is going to be recent for us?
<bspencer> I haven't heard of anything newer
<kwwii> that is the latest that I now of
<kwwii> we'll probably have to change a lot anywasy
<kwwii> s/anywasy/anyway
<kwwii> as there is a clock in the template, etc
<kwwii> the digital numbers for a clock are there too, I guess that is more along the lines of what we want
<bspencer> kwwii, our clock is dumb and just uses a font
<bspencer> it doesn't get number individually from a theme
<kwwii> well then, we can remove all of that from the theme
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> I sent you a tar.gz file - installing it will probably make some things unreadable, etc but unless I can test it (including the colors) we will never know
<bspencer> ok, I'll look at it
<bspencer> is it a sliced template?
<bspencer> (lots of small files?)
<bspencer> you have the ability to create a target environment on your workstation, right?
<bspencer> and try out your theme on it?
<kwwii> no, it is not cut up yet
<kwwii> yes, I have a test system on my laptop as well as using the Q1
<kwwii> I would rather test things on the Q1, so I see the difference in DPI, etc
<kwwii> my laptop is only 1024x768 so running it in a window is kinda hard (window deco, etc)
<kwwii> LOL, intel does not accept tar.gz as an attachment?
<kwwii> The attached message was not delivered to the intended recipient.
<kwwii> The following file(s) appear to be of a type that is not accepted by Intel;
<kwwii> hildon-theme-blackandorange.tar.gz
<bspencer> oh, sorry
<bspencer> can you put it on a webserver?
<kwwii> no worries, I'll put it on my server
<bspencer> I ran ./autogen.sh
<bspencer> then configure
<bspencer> and make
<bspencer> (after bootstrap)
<kwwii> ok, mail resent...check it out and let me know what you think (not sure how much longer I will be awake tonight)
<kwwii> hehe, so revolutionary :-)
<bspencer> all the files seem to be in template dir
<bspencer> and the "data" dir
<bspencer> but I don't see any generated package
<kwwii> on my end it appears to need to be in a build environment somehow as it complains about hildon-theme-layout-4, etc.
<kwwii> anyway...time for sleep here...we can talk about this tomorrow
<bspencer> k
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: just uploaded a fixed moblin-image-creator, so tomorrow's images should be fine.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: OK. We'll check them out then.  
<Mithrandir> sorry it wasn't fixed earlier; just too much going on here.
<ian_brasil> it would probably be a good idea to document 'how to make a theme' as soon as someone figures out how it is done ;)
<kwwii> ian_brasil: I plan to do it as we figure things out
<ian_brasil> i was hoping you were going to say that :)
<ian_brasil> when i made a theme for maemo i used this http://thememaker.garage.maemo.org/About%20Theme%20Maker.html ...i don't know if it helps
<kwwii> I was hoping that we could come up with something like that in the end as well
<kwwii> it won't fit quite for what we need right now, but we could adopt it or make something like it
<kwwii> actually, that gives me a good idea...I can test my theme and color using that on my N770
<bspencer> kwwii, must be sleep walking
<kwwii> bspencer: hehe, normally I stop working after I pop open a beer but Ian drew my back in ;-)
<kwwii> I will go to bed sometime soon though, 
<kwwii> *really*
* ian_brasil feels guilty about stopping the beer flowing
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> actually, my wife will probably come in soon and tell me to go to bed
<ian_brasil> sounds great !!
<ian_brasil> :)
<kwwii> hehe, you know my wife?
<kwwii> actually I told her about your house in Brazil and I think she is ready to pack her things and visit you ;-)
* ian_brasil runs and hides
<ian_brasil> seriously, i have just reformed that house...it floats a lot better now
<kwwii> sounds like a lot of work
<ian_brasil> yes, i was a bit concerned of it sinking whilst i slept
<kwwii> might be a shocking way of waking up
<kwwii> then again, drowning in your own house is a unique way of dying
<ian_brasil> well i had not planned on checking out just yet but setting it on fire and drifting out into the amazon...sort of going out viking style has its appeal
<kwwii> probably make for amazing photos, let me know beforehand
<ian_brasil> you can have front row seats 
<kwwii> lol
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-28
<rustyl> Mithrandir, is adilson in Boston with you?
<mawhalen> rustyl: you on?
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<alek_> mjg59, u there ?
<alek_xdu1> mjg59, u there ?
<mjg59> alek_: Hi
<jussi01> Hmmm, is the a vague release date planned yet?
<ian_brasil>  An Unofficial Guide to Creating
<ian_brasil> a Most Excellent
<ian_brasil> User Interface @ http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfrtdqv5_7hp33bq&pli=1
<ian_brasil> this is for maemo but it explains things much better than the official docs i think
<Mithrandir> rustyl: yes, Adilson is here
<agoliveira> rustyl: No I'm not, this is just a very smart irc bot :)
<ian_brasil> the start-hildon script has 
<ian_brasil> PREFIX=/usr
<ian_brasil> THEME=${PREFIX}/share/themes/plankton but this theme is not there...i changed the theme to mobilebasic but it seg faults
<alek_laptop> mjg59: Hi
<mjg59> alek_laptop: Hi
<alek_laptop> So the CONFIG_VM86 issue will be fixed in next built ?
<mjg59> It should be, yes
<mjg59> Thanks for looking into that!
<alek_laptop> Ok, thank you very much!
<rustyl> agoliveira, did you the hildon-desktop bug I submitted related to startup notifications?
<rustyl> agoliveira, I pushed a fix to the ubuntu branch of the hildon-desktop bzr repository
<agoliveira> rustyl: Sorry, you're asking if I saw it?
<agoliveira> rustyl: Ok, I saw it now. I'll se to have it uploaded.
<rustyl> agoliveira, yea, we have had a bug that few people realized exists because none of our apps are correctly using the X-Osso-Service desktop entry
<rustyl> cool
<agoliveira> rustyl: BTW, your boss is right here in the same room so be nice with me :)
<agoliveira> s/with/to?
* agoliveira is seldon confuse by this construction...
* rustyl pokes agoliveira 
<mawhalen> yea Rusty
<mawhalen> rustyl: you available?
<rustyl> yes, i'm here
<mawhalen> can I call yer cell?
<rustyl> yes
<mawhalen> or the special phone
<mawhalen> my machine is locking...have to wait to get the #
<rustyl> mawhalen, my cell number that I have had for years is working
<mawhalen> ok - 
<rustyl> mawhalen, i see i have a missed call... was that you?
<rustyl> the phone was on the other side of the house
<mawhalen> no, wasn't me
<Charliefjohnson> mdz: Are you having email problems ?? I just had email to you bounce.
<Mithrandir> rustyl: care to set email=$yourname $youremail in ~/.bazaar/bazaar.conf ?
<Mithrandir> rustyl: so your commits are going to have a proper committer?
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: fyi, I just got a fix for the moblin-image-creator problem and am now in the process of building new dailies.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: OK. Thanks.
<Mithrandir> I'll tell you if it works on my mccaslin here once it's built and I have downloaded it.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: You'll try it on your menlow too?
* rustyl updates his bzr conf
<mdz_> Charliefjohnson: no, what you saw was *my* email to *you* bouncing
<mdz_> Charliefjohnson: I forwarded you a copy of it and asked that you use my canonical.com address for all Canonical/Ubuntu communications
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: no, I'm in boston sans my menlow system, so I won't be able to test until Monday.
<Charliefjohnson> mdz: I think auto completion in my email client bit me. 
<Mithrandir> Charliefjohnson: build complete, so if you could test on menlow, it'd be appreciated.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: OK. I'll let you know.
<Mithrandir> thanks.
<Charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: I assume that you still have to manually install the nonfree flashplugin package?
<Mithrandir> correct.
<wasabi> Hmm. I installed the mobile stuff, and now in Gnome when I login I get an onscreen keyboard. Which is cool and all. It raises two questions: why did it open when I logged into gnome-session, and why can't I move the window (it seems to close and reopen if I click on teh titlebar)
<wasabi> oh i see, it vanishes on it's own when i'm dragging things
<wasabi> wow that's really neat actually... unfortunatly I can't drag it.
<wasabi> oh i see, it's only supposed to appear when a text field is in focus.
<Mithrandir> it's a gtk input method, yes.
<bspencer> Mithrandir, did you set it up to run with --daemon ?
<Mithrandir> yes, or rather -d
<bspencer> Mithrandir, do you know if it is possible to toggle it on/off ?
<bspencer> meaning, turn off the auto-launch 
<Mithrandir> I don
<Mithrandir> 't think it is.
<Mithrandir> but you could ask the matchbox/OH people
<bspencer> right, or just stop the daemon.
<Mithrandir> that'd work, yes.
<wasabi> not sure what's launching the daemon
<wasabi> it's not in my session startup
<Mithrandir> it's done as part of startx.
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-29
<asac> hmm what was the name of the hildonized calculator again?
<asac> Mithrandir: there?
<Mithrandir> asac: I am.
<asac> Mithrandir: cool ... do we have a simple packaged application in gutsy that integrates with hildon properly?
<asac> e.g. menus are of concern here?
<Mithrandir> tasks should be an example.
<asac> Mithrandir: whats the package/binary name? 
<Mithrandir> tasks
<asac> is it hildonized on lpia only ... or everywhere?
<Mithrandir> shouldonly be on lpia
<Mithrandir> s/d/d /
<asac> hmm ok ... so maybe thats the reason ...
* asac going back migrating everything on lpia chroot
<asac> Mithrandir: carl told me we have a hildon expert/dev here in channel ... who is that?
<Mithrandir> asac: tko, I believe, for instance.
<asac> tko: ping :)
<asac> Mithrandir: is there a way to just start the hildon-panel?
<asac> e.g. DISPLAY=:1 hildon-panel  (doesn't exist unfortunately)
<Mithrandir> just the marquee?
<Mithrandir> it's in-process of hildon-desktop, iirc
<asac> ok let me purge and reinstall hildon-desktop again :)
<asac> Mithrandir: hmm i think i am doing something wrong as all looks pretty broken anyway, but anyway ... tasks still has the normal top-level menu here
<Mithrandir> I don't have any lpia chroots set up here, and my connectivity isn't the best, so I can't really help you, sorry.
<asac> Mithrandir: same for agoliveira ?
<asac> you are at sprint, right?
<dholbach> asac: yeah
<agoliveira> asac: We all are
<agoliveira> asac: The task built worked for me locally but I wasn able to test the lpia built yet and right now is kind of hard.
<asac> agoliveira: i start matchbox-window-manager + hildon desktop  + tasks ... however tasks still has normal menus
<asac> and in lpia chroot all is broken, while the amd64 version of hildon-desktop at least has some items in its panel
<asac> agoliveira: so we still don't have any application that is hildonized in gutsy?
<Mithrandir> asac: why are you starting matchbox-window-manager by hand?
<agoliveira> asac: no and we won't
<asac> Mithrandir: because everything else is just broken
<agoliveira> asac: All the hildonized applications are going into lpia only.
<asac> Mithrandir: if i start-hildon ... for instance
<asac> agoliveira: yes thats fine ... but is there any?
<agoliveira> should be tasks, contacts-snapshot, dates, cheese and claws (this one didn't make, don  know why yet)
<agoliveira> asac: I'm afraid I'll not be able to look at this until later or tomorrow.
<asac> agoliveira: dates? no package i can see
<agoliveira> asac: Yes, I just checked and dates also didn't make it yet.
<asac> ok i install cheese ... my last hope
<Mithrandir> asac: uh, no. Use xhost +SI:localuser:root in your normal system, then  DISPLAY=:0 xinit /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc -- /usr/bin/Xephyr :2 -host-cursor -screen 1024x600x32 96 -ac with xserver-xephyr installed in the chroot.
<Mithrandir> that's the right way to start the UI.
<asac> Mithrandir: why isn't that codified somewhere? is that new?
<asac> but let me try ;)
<Mithrandir> it's been that way for two weeks, and it's been posted to the mailing list.
<Mithrandir> the docs aren't updated because nobody has taken the time to do so.
<asac> sure
<asac> Mithrandir: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mobile/2007-August/thread.html ... what post was that in?
<Mithrandir> my bandwidth here is quite limited, it's better if you look yourself.
<asac> i can't find it
<asac> then nevermind
<ian_brasil> Mithrandir: i must have missed this post too.
<ian_brasil_> it is this one i think https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mobile/2007-August/000786.html
<asac> ian_brasil_: thanks
<ian_brasil_> i will update the docs
<ian_brasil> Mithrandir: what was the command on the host again?...something like xhost +  localhost:root   ??
<asac> ian_brasil: he told me: xhost +SI:localuser:root
<asac> ian_brasil: but for me it doesn't work ... i lack some font packages i think
<asac> ian_brasil: btw, i had to use xhost +  (not the one above) ... otherwise it couldn't connect
<ian_brasil> asac: thx...i will try it out now
<asac> ian_brasil: let me know :/
<asac> ian_brasil: i am really stuck here atm ;)
<ian_brasil> i am getting a connection refused error which is more encouraging
<asac> yeah ... try xhost +
<ian_brasil> yes, that works but it opens my x session up to the world
<asac> ian_brasil: you use a image-creator created chroot?
<asac> ian_brasil: have you replaced localuser with your real localuser?
<asac> e.g. xhost +SI:ian_brasil:root
<ian_brasil> asac: i installed manually following https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure
<asac> ian_brasil: hmm ok that might work for me as well as my amd64 install works a bit at least
<asac> ian_brasil: or do you use lpia architecture?
<ian_brasil> no i am not using lpia
<asac> ian_brasil: problem is that there are no hildonized apps if not in lpia atm (i just got that info from agoliveira)
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: This procedure is a bit outdated and will not give you the lattest pieces and bits. You should use the image creator if possible.
* asac gives up and has started the image-creator
<mjg59> Yes, we don't want to package hildonised apps separately
<mjg59> Which means they'll only end up in lpia
<Hobbsee> agoliveira: were there any other packages that you needed a UVFe for, while i'm at it?
<agoliveira> Hobbsee: Sorry but I'm not sure right now. We're a sprint here and I'm a bit disconnected to the applications.
<Hobbsee> agoliveira: no problem.  enjoy. 
<ian_brasil> if i use  $ xhost +  does the -ac parameter to Xephyr override the world access to the xsession?
<mjg59> ian_brasil: No
<mjg59> ian_brasil: The -ac to Xephyr allows anything to connect to Xepyhr
<rustyl> ian_brasil, when you do the command 'xhost +', you are only changing the access permissions for your current display
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: there's a long dependency chain for claws-mail; I've rescored the first item in the list, and we might end up with the rest built later today.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yes, I saw that a few minutes ago. Thanks.
<Mithrandir> Sciri: for the dailies, you might want to look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~tfheen/bzr/mobile-image-runner/
<Mithrandir> (bzr repo, so bzr branch $url)
<Sciri> OK, great...
<ian_brasil> i have xhost access control enabled..i started Xephyr like Xephyr :2 -host-cursor -screen 800x480x32 -dpi 96 -ac and i used the start-hildon script ...this works ok 
<Mithrandir> it shouldn't, any more
<Mithrandir> so if that works, it's a bug. :-P
<alek_laptop> Mithrandir, u there?
<ian_brasil> like asac on the same setup xinit /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc -- /usr/bin/Xephyr :2 -host-cursor -screen 800x480x32 -dpi 96 -ac
<ian_brasil>  fails ...complaining about not able to free font path
<alek_laptop> mjg59, u there ?
<Mithrandir> alek_laptop: I am
<mjg59> alek_laptop: Hi
<alek_laptop> oh, great!
<alek_laptop> I have a reported bug at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/134626
<alek_laptop> but don't know how to change the project to linux-source-2.6.22
<mjg59> alek_laptop: Hit the status, and a box will drop down. Type the source package name in there.
<alek_laptop> yeah, but it always said no such project ....
<mjg59> alek_laptop: Just worked fine for me :)
<alek_laptop> and when I searched, only show package named "linux" ...
<mjg59> Ah - you need to edit the package, not the project
<mjg59> The project is ubuntu
<alek_laptop> mjg59, oh, let me try.
<alek_laptop> it said the bug was already marked affecting linux-2.6.22-source
<mjg59> Yes, I changed it myself when you said it didn't work for you
<alek_laptop> mjg59, hoho, thanks a lot.
<kwwii> bspencer, kyleN: I talked to Michael (the guy at Nokia working on the hildon-theme-tools)
<bspencer> yes
<kwwii> they are working on changing a few things and write new documentation for them, I agreed to help with the process
<kwwii> so we should get a lot further soon
<bspencer> that sounds great
<rob_moblin> sodarock_ubuntu, how's it going in boston?
<sodarock_ubuntu> rob_moblin: Going good.  No problems.
<kyleN> that's great
<kyleN> kwwii: Do they have a specification they are working from or are they just going to do what they think is best?
<asac> tko: there?
<mfrey> Mithrandir: PKGS=hal gnome-keyring-manager gnome-system-tools network-manager-gnome gksu bluez-utils libbluetooth-dev libbluetooth2 bluetooth bluetooth-alsa bluez-btsco bluez
<mfrey> -hcidump gnome-bluetooth bluez-gnome python-bluez wireless-tools ppp pppconfig wvdial diald gnome-ppp  libpt-plugins-v4l2  libsdl1.2debian 
<Mithrandir> cheers
<kwwii> kyleN: as far as I know they are mainly working on a system for themselves...at the time it seems to be the best way to understand what they are doing and why. after that we can change things to fit out needs
<tko> asac: sort of
<dholbach> hey HappyCamp
<sodarock_ubuntu> dholbach: http://berlin.craigslist.org/  Not sure how popular it is there.
<dholbach> sodarock_ubuntu: yeah, just got there myself :)
<asac> tko: thanks, but I solved my hildon event issues ... for now ;)
* dholbach hugs asac
* asac hugs dholbach 
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-30
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
(bspencer_/#ubuntu-mobile) ok.  I can chat about this offline
(rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) making each commit into a patch is not very useful
(rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) it would be eaiser to create one big patch and just split it up by hand
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) bspencer_: unsure if we have answered your question well?
(rustyl_/#ubuntu-mobile) another option is to only check in patches into the debian/patches dir
<bspencer_> rustyl_: yes, that sounds like what I'd like to do
<Mithrandir> I really despise keeping patches in revision control systems, but I know some people like it.
<bspencer_> :)
<rustyl_> the reality is that different projects deal with this in different ways
<bspencer_> it is temporary and reminds us that these need to be removed soon
<bspencer_> so it annoys us that they are there, and we ask about them all the time
<bspencer_> and we know how our branch is different from upstream and can point to the changes at any time
<rustyl_> the worse thing about this approach is when some of your developers don't understand the concept, and then go and directly edit the source files
<bspencer_> rustyl_: Mithrandir I'll do what you suggest.  if we don't want to draga round patch files, I'll keep track of the changes elsewhere and just commit to the trunk.
<Mithrandir> bspencer_: sounds good to me.
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  App selection
<MootBot> New Topic:  App selection 
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: your item
<agoliveira> Sure.
<agoliveira> We still have a few points we need to iron out regarding to applications.
<agoliveira> For instance: RSS reader. Should we use a separate one or a browser or email plugin?
<bspencer> agoliveira: good Q
<bspencer> we will have online RSS readers
<bspencer> and there is even a menu item for it in the mozilla browser
<bspencer> but that means they have to open the browser to read it
<agoliveira> I don't think we should start a discussion here as it would take forever so I suggest that you take a good hard look here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplications and take this to the mailing list.
<agoliveira> That's becasue RSS is just one point :)
<bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  but a chat about it would be good (not now)
<bspencer> mailing list sometimes takes a long time to resolve for small points
<agoliveira> We can make something specific, no problem.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: which apps are the ones you are wondering about?
<agoliveira> bspencer: Agree
<agoliveira> A few point then...
<agoliveira> - Remote desktop client. I can prepare rdesktop and vnc but a few questions we need to iron out like, should they have panning? Should they work fullscreen only?
<agoliveira> - RSS reader - Needed to decide which one. 
<agoliveira> - Office document viewer - There's none we can use directly, we need to discuss if we are going to do something about it like the options I proposed on the doc or not.
<agoliveira> - Games? Which ones exactly.
<bspencer> I have opinions about all those
<bspencer> which we can chat about after?
<agoliveira> Cool :) And why they aren 't on the wiki page? ;)
<agoliveira> Sure
<bspencer> unless Mithrandir is eager to chat now :)
<Mithrandir> after the meeting sounds like a plan to me.
<Mithrandir> we here in boston probably want a 30-minute break or so to catch lunch.
<bspencer> agoliveira: sorry about my not commenting on wiki.  post the link here?
<Mithrandir> (after the meeting)
<bspencer> agoliveira: probably ready to eat too
<agoliveira> bspencer: Sure https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserApplications
<bspencer> agoliveira: do you want to sync up in an hour ?
<agoliveira> bspencer: No problem.
<bspencer> (around 11:30am PDT) ?
<bspencer> (10:15 am PDT now)
<agoliveira> Deal
<Mithrandir> I have one agenda item about moblin.org vs ubuntu-mobile and patches and such, so let's do that, then end the meeting, unless anybody else has more stuff.
<Mithrandir> [TOPIC]  moblin.org, ubuntu-mobile, patches and such.
<MootBot> New Topic:  moblin.org, ubuntu-mobile, patches and such. 
<Mithrandir> so, we're currently at a sprint where we ended up having a bunch of issues because hildon-desktop on moblin had added a plugin API which didn't exist in Ubuntu
<Mithrandir> it's quite crucial that we don't go about modifying upstream projects in a way that changes the public API.
<Mithrandir> that won't gain us friends, and we end up with crazy problems when mixing and matching seemingly-compatible components.
<Mithrandir> I'm taking this up here so everybody sees it, I think we've already talked through it and are in agreement to avoid doing it in the future.
<HappyCamp_laptop> Mithrandir: you want to make a note of that in the log?
<Mithrandir> [AGREED]  don't change upstream APIs unless in coordination with upstream.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  don't change upstream APIs unless in coordination with upstream. 
<bspencer> is the issue that we changed the public API, or that there were changes on moblin that weren't found in UME and broke the build?
<HappyCamp_laptop> kind of both, I think
<Mithrandir> it broke at runtime, not at build.
<bspencer> because just not changing the public API won't help the build problem
<Mithrandir> the former is really the biggest problem, since the latter wouldn't have happened without the former.
<Mithrandir> it wasn't a build problem, it was a runtime problem where the "prev" button in the marquee would go down in flames with an unresolved symbol.
<Mithrandir> (there might have been other problems too, but in this case, that was the problem)
<bspencer> yeah.  not good
<Mithrandir> if upstream has taken a patch to add an API, it's fine, even if it's not in a released version.
<bfiller_> just so I'm clear, the moblin version of hildon-desktop is going away and it will only be hosted on launchpad. correct?
<bspencer> bfiller_: gone
<Mithrandir> there is no moblin version of hildon-desktop.
<Mithrandir> it's already gone.
<bfiller_> thanks
<bspencer> hildon-desktop was only in moblin.org temporarily until we could get our patches upstream
<bfiller_> bspencer: got it
<bspencer> but obviously we didn't get them there soon enough :)
<Mithrandir> anybody got any more agenda items, or can we adjourn?
<Mithrandir> adjourned, then.
<Mithrandir> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:13.
<Mithrandir> woo
<Mithrandir> only 80 minutes or so.
<Mithrandir> lunch!
<bfiller_> bspencer, rusty: want to talk about the flash stuff now?
<bspencer> I would if rustyl_  is still here
<patm> rustyl_, I have a  question about SDIO
<rob_moblin> patm: what's the question?
<rustyl_> i'm hear
<patm> we are having trouble with SD memory cards with the latest patches applied
<patm> our SDIO wifi card works but not SD cards
<patm> the mmc_core module seems to conflict
<rustyl_> bfiller_, i'm reading the doc you sent out
<bspencer> bfiller_: I'm reading your doc
<rob_moblin> patm: how so?
<bfiller_> ok, we can talk after you're done
<rustyl_> bfiller_, have you seen how application starting works now?
<patm> the driver will not load unless we remove the mmc_core
<rob_moblin> patm: do you have both MMC and MSS installed at the same time?
<bfiller_> rusty: yes I have. I realize it's slightly different
<bfiller_> rusty: I did have a question about it though
<rustyl_> bfiller_, i like the idea of not having flash hard coded with exec commands
<rob_moblin> patm: MSS is a replacement for the MMC stack that's in the kernel by default. it's an either or option
<bfiller_> rusty: agree
<patm> ok
<patm> when we have just mss, sd cards do not work
<bfiller_> rusty: looks like you are storing the index into the array in the flash movie
<bfiller_> only problem we hit in our case is that the flash movie has hard coded apps
<rustyl_> bfiller_, yeap.... then all the flash content needs to do is say 'start #3'
<rob_moblin> patm: our focus right now is NOT to on MSS -- we want to move to Pierre Ossman's new SDIO stack
<rustyl_> bfiller_, all you need to do is remove the hard coded apps, and replace that with a set of desktop files that result in the same behavior
<patm> rob_moblin, RIght, I understand
<patm> rob_moblin, wondered if it was a known issue or something to do with our environment
<bfiller_> if the we don't use the addApp() to add the movie dynamcially to flash, how does the movie know what the corresponding index is?
<rustyl_> bfiller_, the idea is that the flash content is adding the apps dynamically
<rob_moblin> patm: we've seen that some SD cards work and others don't
<rob_moblin> patm: we've also seen even with the MMC stack, some SD cards work and other don't
<rustyl_> bfiller_, quick quesion...
<bfiller_> rusty: I think that is a good idea. Just not exactly sure how to modify the customer's movie to do this.
<patm> rob_moblin, in that case let me do some further testing, thanx
<rustyl_> bfiller_, are you guys stuck with a flash based UI... do you have the ability to choose a different technology?
<bfiller_> rusty: for this particular customer, we're stuck with flash. They are insistent with using it
<rustyl_> bfiller_, i am very conserned about battery usage
<bfiller_> rusty: yes, we've raised that issue
<rob_moblin> patm: we were also thinking there might be a problem with the crown beach board w.r.t. to SD cards, but if you're seeing different results on your non-crown beach HW it could be a SW issue
<rustyl_> bfiller_, unless we can somehow stop the flash content while it is not visible, then the adobe flash implementation will never let the cpu go idle for long enough to get any benifit from all the new cpu mobile technologies
<patm> rob_moblin, the customer reported this, but I have not tried recently, I will try their dev board now
<bspencer> rustyl_: we should get someone good at flash to push that theory
<rob_moblin> patm: ok
<bfiller_> rusty: how do the desktop files in /usr/share/mobile-basic-flash/applications get installed there?
<bspencer> and make the most basic flash program and see if it isn't our flash
<bspencer> rustyl_: have you tried other flash programs that are static?
<bfiller_> I was expecting the home plugin to read the desktop files out of /usr/share/applications
<rustyl_> bfiller_, the idea is that an applicatino that wanted to be presented in the UI would add it's own desktop file to that location
<bspencer> bfiller_: we didn't want to change the default applications .desktop content.  For example, we don't want to show Python, though there may be a .desktop file for it
<bspencer> in /usr/share/applications
<bfiller_> rusty, bspencer: I understand
<patm> rustyl_, it needs to be a more standard folder not tied to the flash ui
<bspencer> I do think it would be nice to have it located in /etc/mobile-ui/applications  (or a symlink or something)
<bspencer> and every UI would look there, regardless of whether it was written in flash or other
<bspencer> but that's just brainstorming
<rustyl_> bspencer, bfiller_ ...although, we could look for a new entry (like stuff under ['Hildon Home'] )
<patm> right, I just installed some new apps that need to have their rules changed to work
<bspencer> maybe /usr/share/applications/mobile-ui
<bspencer> or mobile-home
<bfiller_> rustyl_: so does the mobile-basic-flash deb package current install those dekstop files?
<rustyl_> yes
<rustyl_> the other problem we have is dictating order of the icons
<bspencer> we need to create an "application requirements list" 
<bspencer> applications should include creation of this item.  (yes, ordering is also an issue)
<patm> looks like you are using the numbered prefix for ordering
<rustyl_> right now we just send down the array of apps as they desktop entries are found 
<bspencer> btw, ordering may be changed by end user.  Also, applications could be grouped into category.  The design should accomodate these things.
<patm> right our customer has defined a grouping
<bfiller_> bspencer: what are the number prefixes used for?
<bspencer> order
<bspencer> :-\
<bspencer> that is the order they will be represented in the current UI, left-to-right
<bfiller_> bspencer: that's what I thought
<rustyl_> actually, it's the order of the index entryies, which the flash content translates into a left-to-right icon ordering
<rustyl_> we could add a desktop entry for group
<patm> who can write up the requirements and a proposal?
<bspencer> rustyl_ and I will talk about it
<bspencer> and send out something 
<patm> great
<rustyl_> actually
<bspencer> or
<rustyl_> i don't think that is the best way
<rustyl_> since we have our existing flash content that works (for some degree of work)...
<patm> oh oh
<rustyl_> what we need are requirements from other people trying to make the UI work for different flash content
<rustyl_> like what is coming out here
<bfiller_> I know our customer will require grouping of apps
<bspencer> can we list them here briefly (the ones we know) ?
<bfiller_> so I think that is important
<bspencer>  - req1) grouping
<rustyl_> for example... what if you don't have a slider concept... how do you deal with that?
<lenkawell>  a non-flash home page?
<bspencer>  - req2) ordering by customer
<bspencer>  - req3) ordering by end-user
<bspencer>  - req 4) non-flash UI home page accomodated
<patm> multiple themes?
<bspencer> rustyl_: yes, in that case the ordering can be ignored, but maybe grouping is used
<bspencer> rustyl_: (if there is no slider, for example)
<bspencer> patm: what do you mean?  It should support theming?
<bfiller_> rusty: back to the index thing. Could we use an invented applicationId as the key rather than an array index?
<patm> icon needs to play along with it
<bfiller_> rusty: the appId could be stored in the desktop file
<bfiller_> rusty: then the flash movie doesn't need to necessary support dynamically adding apps
<bspencer> patm: the location of the icons is another topic  -- good point.  Actually the theme will include:   /usr/share/theme/<theme definition with theme images, but not icons>  AND /usr/share/icons/<theme icons>
<patm> bspencer, so the icons go to /usr/share/icons ? but they do not today?
<bspencer> patm: right
<bspencer> they do not today
<bspencer> (well, rustyl_ may have changed that)
<rustyl_> nope
<bspencer> originally the icons were in /usr/share/mobile-basic-flash/icons
<kwwii> they should probably go in /usr/share/icons/<THEME>
<bspencer> kwwii:  yes  that is what I meant to say
<patm> sounds good
<bspencer> we just don't have a theme yet :)    ( kwwii : btw, how does an application get the name of the current theme ? )
<rustyl_> via the environment
<bfiller_> bspencer, rustyl_: be right back, have to run to caf. before it closes
<bspencer> rustyl_: from a matchbox-wm method ?
<bspencer> bfiller_: k
<bspencer>  - req5) home UI uses current theme for icons and default background
<bspencer>  - req6) user can change the default background using control-panel applet for configuring desktop   (or a shortcut on the home screen UI which does the same)
<rustyl_> i think i need to think on this a bit
<kwwii> bspencer: it is a system variable (probably) set in gtkrc
<kwwii> bspencer: once we have a test theme a lot of this will become much clearer I assume
<kwwii> I looked into using the theme-maker java app to create a theme but the template file is in a totally different order for that
<kwwii> so I gave up
<bspencer> kwwii: I was going to hack a little on hildon-theme-mobile-basic to add icons for a temporary thing, so we could pull them into the UI and get the UI home screen working right
<kwwii> bspencer: sounds good for the short-term
<bspencer> kwwii: yeah, still not a real theme
<kwwii> bspencer: I was going to update the pics for the top-bar as well...I'll probably be pinging you about that sometime soon
<bspencer> sounds good
<kwwii> bspencer: it seems that in the next few weeks we need to have something that looks halfway like we want it to show to people
<bfiller_> I'm back
<bspencer> kwwii: agreed.  
<bfiller_> bspencer, rustyl_: any comments about the events doc?
<rustyl_> bfiller_, so you have a set of predefined events
<bfiller_> rustyl_: that's what we were thinking for this particular customer. Could be made more generic though.
<bspencer> bfiller_: how does the javascript send a dbus event?
<bfiller_> bspencer: it doesn't
<bspencer> ok.  I thought I was missing something
<bfiller_> bspencer: home plugin gets a dbus event and calls a javascript function umeEvent() passing it the appropriate event
<bspencer> home plugin is what -- gtkmozembed ?
<bspencer> like now?
<bfiller_> bspencer: yes
<bspencer> sorry -- I'm looking at ht epicture and trying to understand it
<bfiller_> bspencer: the change would be the home plugin would listen for appropriate dbus signals and then forward to the flash movie
<bspencer> so do we need an xpcom interface for javascript--> C code --> dbus event ?
<bspencer> that is part of the gtkmozembed plugin ?
<rustyl_> bspencer, what are you asking?
<rustyl_> no need for a new xpcom interface
<bspencer> how does the flash send a dbus event
<rustyl_> all the native work is done in our container
<bspencer> what are the steps
<rustyl_> js just acts as a glue layer between the flash content and our container
<bfiller_> bspencer: here is the flow 1) flash movie calls umeEnable() function which tells container to start listening for a predefined set of events 2) when container (plugin) gets events, it delivers them to flash movie via javascript call
<bspencer> ok.  the container is the C code sending/receiving dbus events.  So javascript is making an "exec" call ?  
<rustyl_> bspencer, if you look at the current code, you will see how we transfer data back and forth
<bfiller_> flash movie can also ask for specific property via umeGetProperty()
<bspencer> look at the code?  inconceivable.  ok.   
<bfiller_> bspencer: C code uses gtkmozembed to call a know javascript function in the flash_home.html page passing it the information about the event
<bfiller_> bspencer, rustyl_: when I get more of the event interaction coded in the mobile-basic-flash-plugin I will send you diffs to take a look at
<Mithrandir> rustyl_: please don't use a different directory for the .desktop files, but rather use the OnlyShowIn/NotShowIn keys in the .desktop files already existing.
<ToddBrandt_> Mithrandir: sorry I missed the meeting earlier, were there any hot topics for me?
<Mithrandir> ToddBrandt_: we'd liked to have had a status update on the control panel applets, so if you'd want to post that to the list, that'd be good.
<ToddBrandt_> Mithrandir: will do
<Mithrandir> thanks
<agoliveira> bspencer: I'm ready when you are.
<bspencer> agoliveira: hi
<agoliveira> bspencer: Want to talk about the apps now or later?
<bspencer> now
<agoliveira> Cool.
<bspencer> rss reader:
<bspencer> it would be nice to have a small one outside the browser
<bspencer> but I don't think it is a high priority
<bspencer> I think we could call it post-Oct
<bspencer> unless we know of one that just works
<bspencer> we'll have online readers
<bspencer> and usually rss-reader sends you to the browser when you lcick an item
<agoliveira> I have the RSS reader as your second round of "must haves" do you want to change that?
<bspencer> agoliveira: one thing we could onsider is a category of applications "works on mobile, but not ported yet"
<bspencer> rss reader support is required, just not the external one, I would argue
<agoliveira> Ok.
<bspencer> if the browser supports an rss reader plugin, that would be ok
<bspencer> (or similar functionality)
<bspencer> but reading your page, I see a couple of links
<bspencer> it would be cool to try those on the mobile device and see how usable they were
<bspencer> and keep them as "help needed" items if someone wanted to jump in 
<agoliveira> That's the point. So you suggest leave it up to the browser now and go for a dedicated reader laert?
<agoliveira> later
<bspencer> yeah
<kwwii> bspencer: where did you get the layout file to use with the slicer?
<agoliveira> About the applications on the page, not all of them were tested on the device itself but all were on a chroot at least and worked to some useful level at least unless they had some major drawback like mobipocket.
<agoliveira> Or the document viewer just because it does not exist in the way we want it.
<bspencer> right, ok.
<bspencer> what was the next app to chat about?
<bspencer> kwwii: again, sorry, but I never used the slicer :-\
<kwwii> oh, right...I forgot
<bspencer> I just took the end-result theme/images directory and replaced them with my own
<agoliveira> bspencer: hold on a second. I lost my notes :)
<bspencer> http://liferea.sourceforge.net/screenshot8.png  looks very nice, I have to say
<bspencer> ( agoliveira  )
<agoliveira> bspencer: Remote desktop client
<bspencer> aaright
<agoliveira> bspencer: Yes, liferea is great but needs hiuldonization
<bspencer> ooops
<bspencer> agoliveira: sure, but the UI is simple
<agoliveira> Indeed.
<bspencer> sorry, I'm in and out
<bspencer> ok.  remote desktop
<bspencer> I played with vncviewer
<bspencer> matchbox keyboard didn't work with it
<bspencer> so that would have to be figured out.  probably matthew allum has a fix we could use
<agoliveira> bspencer: There's 2 things to figure out: vnc and rdesktop. Both can be put to work without much haslle as I did it on N770. Just need to know if we are going do both, none and when :)
<bspencer> rdesktop is to windows?
<bspencer> looking up rdesktop ...
<agoliveira> Yep
<agoliveira> RDP client
<bspencer> ok.  is it in-the-clear legal?
<bspencer> " rdesktop was initially written by Matthew Chapman  based on various scarce documentation, wire sniffs, and trial-and-error "
<bspencer> makes me worried
<bspencer> (speaking with my Intel hat on, not the hacker hat)
<agoliveira> I can't say. In Brazil it is :)
<bspencer> ok.  let me look around.  Ideally we focus on connecting to windows desktop first, if it is possible to get a legal-in-US solution
<agoliveira> Sure. You would need to consult your shark^H^H^H^H^H^H legal tem, I guess
<agoliveira> team
<bspencer> yeah, :)
<bspencer> or at least wikipedia :)
<Mithrandir> bspencer: the rdesktop protocol is specified in a pile of ISO standards.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: do you see any reason not to use it?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yes, but don't care about implement it. I won't work.
<bspencer> agoliveira: do you know if it connect to Windows Vista and XP ? 
<bspencer> I see NT mentioned
<bspencer> NT terminal server is still used though I think.
<agoliveira> bspencer: It's latest encarnation uses RDP 5 and some bits of 6 so, yes. 
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: -EPARSE.
<Mithrandir> bspencer: no, I thinkit's completely fine.
<bspencer> agoliveira: let's do that
<agoliveira> bspencer: Ok. rdesktop and/or vnc?
<kwwii> w00t...I got it to work :-)
<bspencer> agoliveira: does rdesktop require something to run on Windows?
<bspencer> if not, then it is better than making the user install vncserver on their windows box
<bspencer> (my mom couldn't do that easily)
<agoliveira> If it's a rdp server capable version of windows, no.
<bspencer> you probably have to configure your windows system and it only works with XP full edition, not home edition
<agoliveira> Exactly
<bspencer> mm... ok.  Well... I don't know then  
<bspencer> it seems like a "nice-to-have" application, but also cool
<bspencer> if it can never work on XP Home edition, then I'm not as excited about it.  At least vnc could work on all systems
<agoliveira> bspencer: We need a GUI to it as it is a command line application. We do have tsclient we can use as a base but needs hildonization.
<smagoun_> rdekstop was a popular demo on Pepper Linux, despite the fact it requires XP Pro, etc
<agoliveira> bspencer: It won't work with XP home, that's for sure.
<smagoun_> For comparison, VNC was barely on the radar
<bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  I'm not knowledgeable enough about rdesktop to compare it to vnc.  I've only used vnc.
<Mithrandir> rdesktop's more convenient on thin pieces of string.
<bspencer> smagoun_: do you know if that is because of performance, usability, or just market presence?
<bspencer> Mithrandir: even compared to tightvnc ?
<Mithrandir> bspencer: I believe so.
<agoliveira> bspencer: RDP is supported by MS so we can take some advantages, it's usually faster, one can redirect devices, have different users/sessions, while vnc is a screen grabber/controller only.
<Sciri> bspencer: Market presence; all the marketing types walking into the Pepper booth at CES and Digital Life knew Remote Desktop was a marketing catchphrase and most had never even heard of VNC.
<agoliveira> That too.
<bspencer> Sciri: ha ha.  funny world.  vnc is nice for linux hackers 
<bspencer> ok.  agoliveira just do both :P
<Sciri> bspencer: Exactly. All the Linux geeks who came to see the Pad asked for VNC but they were the minority.
* agoliveira grumbles something about big mounths...
<Mithrandir> bspencer: xrdp exists and works.
<smagoun_> bspencer: I'm not sure why it was so popular, but I think people understand + are familiar with windows, so it's a way to tie the mobile device to their windows pc.
<bspencer> a guy here at work tried rdesktop and vnc and some others
<bspencer> there was a common issue with matchbox keyboard
<bspencer> although I think he said it worked with rdesktop, not vnc
<agoliveira> When I was working in consulting, I had a costumer for whom I created a very small linux distro that in the end just started rdesktop fullscreen so he could connect to windows servers.
<bspencer> lol
<smagoun_> bspencer: People also liked that there was nothing to install (on the windows side). FWIW rdesktop performance is fine, depending on the network connection.
<agoliveira> bspencer: Yep. Being there, done that
<bspencer> ok.  so what does it take to get rdesktop to work?
<agoliveira> smagoun_: You should try rdp over nx. Goes rounds around rdp alone.
<bspencer> what is this "command-line interface" 
<agoliveira> bspencer: rdesktop is a command line tool. We need agui to make it palatable.
<bspencer> and you mentioned one
<agoliveira> There's tsclient but needs hildonization.
<bspencer> is tsclient sexy?
* bspencer goes to look for a screenshot
<smagoun_> agoliveira: "good enough" > spending time on the problem :)
<agoliveira> It's a ripoff of the windows rdp client almost :)
<agoliveira> I have to check if there's nothign already done for maemo.
<bspencer> ok.  so let's move on.
<agoliveira> Cool.
<bspencer> (btw, vnc as-is works, just isn't hildonized, which is fine for linux hackers today)
<agoliveira> Fine
<agoliveira> Next: office document viewer.
<bspencer> oh, excpet for keyboard.  I'll ping matchbox guys about keyboard.
<agoliveira> Tight spot as there's none.
<bspencer> office document viewer ...
<bspencer> btw we tried the Adobe PDF plugin in the browser awhile back
<bspencer> it hung the browser and system
<bspencer> it is a little bit BIIIIG
<agoliveira> For PDF is easy.
<bspencer> what document types to support?
<bspencer> ODP, DOC, PDF
<agoliveira> The problem is the MS documents
<agoliveira> MS Office, Im eman
<agoliveira> mean
<bspencer> or.. what is the extension for the standard open document format? odf?
<agoliveira> I don't see any easy alternative here
<agoliveira> odf
<bspencer> ok, that's what I meant
<agoliveira> odp is for presentations, I think
<bspencer> let's talk about usage models
<bspencer> how are people getting .doc's on their MIDs?
<agoliveira> We could easily use abiword and gnumeric but they don't read MS docs as well as openoffice and there's nothing for powerpoint.
<bspencer> email or browser, probably
<agoliveira> Yep
<bspencer> "easily" sounds a little optimistic
<bspencer> OO is out of the question
<agoliveira> bspencer: They are already hildonized.
<bspencer> so what's the belly achin about
<agoliveira> Need a bit polish but works.
<smagoun_> email or browser. MS compatibility is all the consumer cares about, we found
<bspencer> smagoun_: you and your darn customers
<bspencer> customers customers customers
<agoliveira> Customers are for the week.
* bspencer is reminded of Steve Balmer
<agoliveira> weak :)
<smagoun_> bspencer: remind me how much $ intel is spending on the hardware? :)
<bspencer> literally hundreds of dollars ;)
<bspencer> agoliveira: if we can use abiword, that is good
* HappyCamp_laptop hears lots of snickering in the room from bspencer's comment
<bspencer> it is the best we've got.
<Sciri> HappyCamp: Shhh. ;)
<agoliveira> It's a plan to me but we will still lack on powerpoint area.
<bspencer> ok.  we'll have to keep looking.
<bspencer> what else exists in Linux besides OO for powerpt today ?
<smagoun_> http://sixlegs.com/blog/java/powerpoint-viewer.html
<bspencer> I see "java" in that url
* bspencer winces
<agoliveira> bspencer: Yep.
<smagoun_> ...though google ate the company. nevermind.
<bspencer> "look at the screenshots' link does work
<agoliveira> I found this before but I'm not really happy to use java just for this.
<bspencer> let's make PPT a Priority 2 :)
<kwwii> hehe, I figured out how the tools work, now to get the package to build
<agoliveira> Better if we install ppveiwer using wine :-D
* agoliveira congratultes kwwii
<bspencer> kwwii: good news
<kwwii> agoliveira: who says that random typing won't solve a problem :p
<agoliveira> Actually ppviewer works perfectly on wine.
<bspencer> kwwii: we should expect a full theme then by end of day?
<agoliveira> :)
<kwwii> bspencer: to be honest, I might get it done within a few hours
<bspencer> writing that down
<kwwii> unfortunately I have a meeting soon
<agoliveira> erasing that down...
<bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  let's put PPT on hold and go one
<bspencer> s/one/on
<kwwii> ;-)
<agoliveira> Yep
<agoliveira> Games !
<agoliveira> I need to pick a few.
<bspencer> ok.  we should assign everybody to port 1 game
<bspencer> some obvious winners:  card games, sudoku
<bspencer> and I recently played with a little marble game that you used your finger to rotate the floor and try to get it to the other side of the maze
<agoliveira> I don't think we really need to port anything as most of them have their own interfaces unless you want to add like gnome-games.
<bspencer> it would be nice with an accelerometer, but even without it was usable
<bspencer> agoliveira: right.  some have simple menus
<agoliveira> bspencer: I know this one. QUite coool. Problem: we don't have 3D driver yet.
<bspencer> it would be very nice to get at least one 3D game
<bspencer> agoliveira: we do on the Samsung :)
<agoliveira> Oh... sure
<agoliveira> If this is ok to you, I'm fine with it.
<bspencer> yeah.  I'll commit to providing at least one game by October
<agoliveira> Actually the 3D games is the easiest one: just run it fullscreen :)
<bspencer> true
<agoliveira> s/is/are
<bspencer> I played a quake version in Linux a couple years ago.  Not sure if it was legal or open source
<agoliveira> Maybe we should stick with true freeones like tuxracer, etc
<agoliveira> There's some very new and coll ones like battle tanks
<agoliveira> Or armagetron.
<bspencer> yeah, I heard of armegetron
<bspencer> I did a "top 10 linux open source games" or something query once
<bspencer> and that was on the list
<agoliveira> bzflag would be nice too.
<agoliveira> One of my favorites I might add :)
<bspencer> agoliveira: it would be cool if we could get games that played well with two mids
<bspencer> or MID+GPS
<agoliveira> bzflag could.
<agoliveira> armagetron too
<bspencer> yeah.  is that like steal the flag
<bspencer> steal the flag = game where you run around a field and try to capture the other team's flag before they find and capture yours
<agoliveira> bzflag? It has a CTF mode but it's more like a battle
<bspencer> where you hit the other guy with your MID until he collapses?
<smagoun_> tux racer might be better for the target market than bzflag + other shooters (though it looks like TR development has slowed/stopped?)
<bspencer> agoliveira: anything else important about apps?
<kylem> do the devices have a gyroscope like the ibm hdaps? tuxracer could be a lot of fun if so. ;-P
<bspencer> kylem: up to the ODM 
<agoliveira> smagoun_: I don't like very much games without lots of blood, gore and senseless violence so I can't say :)
<bspencer> I've heard of some considering accelerometers or similar as well as GPS, but I don't know for sure
<agoliveira> kylem: That would be cool
<agoliveira> You can take a look at the my sugestions in the apps page
<bspencer> agoliveira: about the camera
<agoliveira> ANy educational games, parhapos?
<bspencer> agoliveira: I did a little work to try and get specs for the Samsung camera
<agoliveira> bspencer: Great. Got them?
<bspencer> but I couldn't get much response from Vimicro.
* agoliveira curses...
<bspencer> I got response, just not anything like "sure, here's the specs"
<bspencer> more like "if you are insterested in making a product in the future, give us a call"
<bspencer> education games 
<agoliveira> I think that is not a big problem to make it work but may take some time tough
<agoliveira> The camera should have a very similar design of the others from the manufacturer.
<bspencer> the camera should use UVC instead of "Vendor specific"
<bspencer> then we wouldn't need the specs
<agoliveira> bspencer: In a perfect world it would :)
<bspencer> I always thought MID would be great as a quizing tool
<bspencer> (educational topic)
<bspencer> like cue-cards 
<bspencer> and simple to write, etc.
<bspencer> I've played the Nintendo Brain quizzer game
<agoliveira> Interesting
* agoliveira can't find a wii to buy in US :(
<bspencer> it is kind of fun in a simple way.  Great for kids (and makes moms happy)
<bspencer> agoliveira: ah, really?
<bspencer> you've got $400 to spend and no place to spend it
<agoliveira> http://www.gcompris.net/ have a lot of them but I don't know how good they are
<agoliveira> bspencer: No, less than that :)
<bspencer> agoliveira: ok.  going to take off for a few unless you have something
<agoliveira> No. It's basicaly that. We can polish that later if more shows up.
<agoliveira> I'll write an email later and post on the ML and you can bash me over it if I misunderstood anything, ok?
<bspencer> agoliveira: if we get abiword, camera, rdesktop UI, a few games ... that's pretty good for October
<bspencer> (along with browser, media player, chat, calc, and some PIM apps)
<agoliveira> The camera only depends (mostly) of the driver.
<agoliveira> The rest is feasible
<bspencer> agoliveira: yeah, we have been using a plugin-USB camera to play with it
<agoliveira> cheatter :)
<bspencer> catch ya later
<agoliveira> Ok, bye
<kwwii> agoliveira: you don't happen to know which package I need to install to get svn on Gutsy do you?
<kwwii> forget that
<kwwii> double w00t - the package built
<kwwii> bspencer: write that back down, since I already did it
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1_all.deb
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1.tar.gz
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1.dsc
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/hildon-theme-oranblak_4.2.0-1_i386.changes
<kwwii> soooo...is there a special usplash theme package for the mobile stuff?
<mjg59> kwwii: Not currently
<kwwii> mjg59: hrm, I was thinking about adding a config part for the Q1 resolution, any reason that would mess things up?
<kwwii> mess things up for the other platforms, I mean
<mjg59> Shouldn't, no
<mjg59> But we can't use the Q1's native resolution
<mjg59> It's not a vesa resolution
<kwwii> mjg59: do you know which resolution it is using and/or is there a way to fix the scaling being currently done?
<mjg59> Theres no way to avoid the scaling
<mjg59> What's the res on the Q1 again? 1280x600?
<kwwii> yepp
<mjg59> 800x600 will be the closest, then
<kwwii> that makes my job a bit easier...I'll wait until someone tells me to change something then
<Mithrandir> 1024x600, iirc
<mjg59> Oh, same issue
<Mithrandir> sure
<kwwii> oops, sorry, I misread the 1280
<kwwii> Mithrandir: should I put the test theme in launchpad? if so, can someone see that it is included and pointed to as default theme?
<Mithrandir> it's a different theme than the stock usplash theme?  Sure, LP is fine, and we can take it from there.
<kwwii> Mithrandir: sorry, I meant the hildon theme I just created
<Mithrandir> same process; LP's fine.
<kwwii> Mithrandir: you can download it and test it from the link I posted above if you want to test it
<kwwii> ok, cool
<Mithrandir> kwwii: I'm utterly, utterly overloaded right now, but I'll do it next week.
<Mithrandir> sorry.
<kwwii> Mithrandir: no worries
<kwwii> I'll bug bob as well
<Mithrandir> coolie
<Mithrandir> I'm sure you two will be able to get good results between the two of you
<kwwii> yeah, now that the theme itself is ready the ball is in his court :-)
<Mithrandir> :-)
<kwwii> soooo...anyone know where the default theme is set? (not in gconf, that much is clear)
<kwwii> lol, the sound of one hand clapping
<kwwii> hrm, it appears we need hildon-theme-cacher to be able to install any other theme debs anyway
* kwwii gives up - and I thought I got so far today
<ian_brasil> kwwii: i tested the deb ...i got dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of hildon-theme-oranblak:
<ian_brasil>  hildon-theme-oranblak depends on hildon-theme-cacher; however:
<ian_brasil>   Package hildon-theme-cacher is not installed.
<ian_brasil> so it needs hildon-theme-cache ;)
<kwwii> ian_brasil: yeah, it is not in the repo either
<kwwii> ian_brasil: luckily the process was straight-forward once I figured it out
<kwwii> although the tools depend on svn...there are several points we will have to tweak
<ian_brasil> i am looking at the images now ..it looks awesome but i see some maemo images in there ??
<ian_brasil> qgn_plat_screen_calibration.png for example
<kwwii> ian_brasil: yeah, they are the ones we do not use anyway
<kwwii> ian_brasil: we have a long way to go on the themeing front, I am just happy that I can even build the theme now
<kwwii> nobody could tell me how to do it (not even the nokia guys)...on monday I'll have a long discussion with the nokia people when they get their documentation done
<kwwii> the clock parts (digital and analog, etc.) are also not uses
<kwwii> used
<kwwii> I think that I am the only person who knows how far behind we are on the themeing stuff
<ian_brasil> good luck !! ...i think there is some deep voodoo involved with the theme creation too...maximum respect for going front line with this i reckon
<kwwii> yeah, I kinda feel like a lone soldier :p
<ian_brasil> well, i think part of the problem is that when someone is used to developing 'closed source' it is easy not to document or to just leave hard coded paths and so on
<ian_brasil> which means it is hard fpr others to work out what is going on
<kwwii> yepp, definitely
<kwwii> and I think that a lot of those working on themeing on this channel would like to keep it that way 
<kwwii> well, this project, not just this channel
<kwwii> I think it has more to do with a lack of understanding than anything else
<ian_brasil> or commercial pressures to just get it out the door...software is art right, not bean counting ! 
<kwwii> yeah, but it could be so much easier...it seems that commercial efforts like to push off the artwork side and then get it done in a rush at the end without thinking about how to make it easy for others
<kwwii> they seem to be used to doing things the hard way when it comes to artwork because they simply do not understand it
<kwwii> just throw some money at it at the end and everything is good
<kwwii> in the same sense, they are not ready to listen to good advice because they are "busy doing other things"
<kwwii> silly, really
<kwwii> anyway...time for bed here
<ian_brasil> ok..this could also be seen as a pretty good opportunity to show how it should be done too though..go kwwii ;)
<kwwii> well, in the end we have to do it the right way no matter what... I do not think that it will be acceptable otherwise
<kwwii> just means I have a lot of work :-)
* ian_brasil goes to make coffee now you mentioned work
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> enjoy
* kwwii is going to bed
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-08-31
<kwwii> lol, one day after I figure out how to bulid a theme the documentation is finished
<ian_brasil> yes, it seems crazy to need scratchbox and sdk to build a theme though
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Hi Ian. What's you email please.
<ian_brasil> you can use root[at] anlawrence.info
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Cool. Thanks.
<ian_brasil> oops root[at] ianlawrence.info
<bspencer> Mithrandir, morning
<bspencer> or afternoon
<bspencer> agoliveira, ping
<agoliveira> bspencer: big pong
<Mithrandir> morning, Bob
<bspencer> agoliveira_lunch, catch ya after lunch
<agoliveira> bspencer: I'm back already
<agoliveira> quick us-style lunch...
<bspencer_> agoliveira, good lunch?
<agoliveira> bspencer_: You may say so... Domino's pizza :)
<bspencer_> just a note on yesterday's apps, I chatted with a coworker who'd worked on a Hildon vnc app
<bspencer_> and I also played with vnc and rdesktop
<bspencer_> I think we need both eventually
<bspencer_> I'd recommend bringing over the gtk-hildon vnc app from https://garage.maemo.org/projects/vncviewer
<bspencer_> and writing a very simple front end to start rdesktop fullscreen
<bspencer_> agoliveira, copy?
<bspencer_> s/writing/write
<agoliveira> bspencer_: NO problem. There's some enhancements that I made on rdesktop when I worked for NoMachine that may be handy too.
<agoliveira> (sorry, I was reading another irc thread)
<bspencer_> agoliveira, rdesktop is nifty... it is simple but scales well to 1024x600
<bspencer_> whereas vnc will always just show the current windows resolution
<bspencer_> as-is, vnc doesn't work with matchbox keyboard, but with the hildon vnc app it does
<agoliveira> bspencer_: Exactly. Remember that vnc just mirrors your current desktop while rdesktop actually works a a rdp client, with sessions, multiple usuers, etc
<agoliveira> Yep. I'm aware about vnc's issues.
<bspencer_> k.  that's all.  just a note :)
<agoliveira> Cool. It's a deal ;)
<rob_> patm: did you ever find out more info on the SD Memory card issues you were seeing?
<rob_> patm: it would be good if you could file a bug on moblin.org to track this issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us
<rob_> patm: i mean http://moblin.org/bugzilla.html
<mjg59> I did wonder
<rob_> that was strange... copy and paste in firefox screwed up :-(
<agoliveira> rob_: Firefox sets you up a bomb!
<rob_> hahaha
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-25
<StevenK> persia: Do you want me to throw -default-settings into bzr, or you can be coerced into doing it? :-)
<persia> StevenK: That's just init + push, isn't it?
<StevenK> persia: init, add, commit, push
<StevenK> persia: I've got the source, so I can, if you wish
<persia> add for each file, or does the initial add grab them all?
<persia> No, I should learn sometime.
<nxvl> init doesn't grab anything
<nxvl> then you need to add *
<nxvl> them commit localy
<persia> Does that work recursively?
<nxvl> and then push into the server
<nxvl> yup
<nxvl> it will prompt every file it add
<StevenK> 'bzr add *' does the right thing
<persia> RIght.  ~ubuntu-mobile or ~ubuntu-mobile-dev?  I'm tempted by the former.
<StevenK> Other stuff is under the former, too
<StevenK> The seeds too
 * persia goes to read documentation on Vcs-*
<persia> I thought the seeds were under ~ubuntu-core-dev.  Did they get put back also at ~ubuntu-mobile?
<nxvl> i think you can just sync/copy the branches from team to team
<StevenK> Oh, let me look
<StevenK> Oh, the seeds are -core-dev, you're right
<persia> RIght.  I wanted the seeds to be ~ubuntu-mobile-dev, and that's actually the primary reason that group exists.
<persia> Having the seeds under ~ubuntu-mobile-dev is in preparation for ArchiveReorganisation
<persia> Right.  Usually I find Google exceptionally helpful, but currently it's not telling me about Vcs-Bzr:  What goes there, and what goes in Vcs-Bzr-browser?
<persia> Err.  Nevermind.  I'll look at a reference package
<persia> nxvl: Why isn't terminator a reference package :)
<nxvl> for what?
<nxvl> for VCS-*?
<nxvl> it actually is
<nxvl> IIRC
 * nxvl check
<persia> Hrm.  It is.  It's just not where I expected to see it.  Never mind.  I'm slow today.
<nxvl> persia: it's monday, you'r kind of supposed to be
<persia> nxvl: Why am I supposed to be slow on Monday?  I thought the intended purpose of the "weekend" was to refresh one for the following week.  Although I don't happen to observe this cultural practice, I really don't think it's appropriate for people to be slow just because it's Monday.
<nxvl> persia: well, my excuse is that on sunday i sleep until late, so i couldn't sleep early at night and i need more sleep
<nxvl> :P
<nxvl> and that's because i had a long saturday party night
<persia> StevenK: lp:~ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mid-default-settings
<StevenK> persia: Right, I've got a branch locally now. Thanks.
<persia> StevenK: Not a problem.  I still like actually using the archive for version control of packages, as I think it's less work, but since this makes it easier for you ...
 * persia is strongly convinced by the argument in the NoMoreSourcePackages spec that a properly tracked archive *is* a VCS
<StevenK> persia: -default-settings seeded, -meta on it's way to the archive.
<persia> StevenK: Cool.
<StevenK> persia: treb reviewed. There is duplicate Build-Depends. :-)
<persia> Bah.  Missed that.  Fixing now.
<persia> It ought be refreshed at 40 past the hour or so.
<StevenK> persia: treb rubber stamped
<persia> Sent to the archive
 * StevenK peers at ume-announcer
<StevenK> persia: I find the INSTALL symlink a little distateful, but I can cope.
<StevenK> distasteful, even
<persia> Hmm.  I wasn't sure about that.  While it works, it's likely to be broken if the build-dependencies aren't installed.
<persia> If we pull a copy, do we not then need to keep it updated?
<StevenK> persia: Not sure about that
<persia> Well, since that's "upstream" code, and upstream has declared that there will be no further support, and upstream doesn't maintain a website or official code repo, I suspect we could change it with a minimum of fuss.
<StevenK> persia: Just a comment, I'm not really fussed.
<persia> OK.  I'd rather do it the right way, I'm just not sure of the right way.
<StevenK> persia: I say we upload, keeping it in mind
<persia> StevenK: Works for me.
<StevenK> persia: Rubber stamped on REVU, too
 * StevenK fixes fbreader
<dexem> hi all
<persia> Good day dexem
<dexem> I'm trying to make a marquee-plugin that could listen some dbus signals... I think I'm doing it right but it doesn't call the handler function ... I'm doing this: http://rafb.net/p/OjZ9Qj17.html
<dexem> does anybody know if there is something weird with the marquee-plugins?
<ogra> persia, why do you set the g-p-m icon to never in the mid settings ? 
<ogra> ('m doing exactly the opposite in mobile)
<persia> ogra: Because that's how it was in ume-config-common?
<ogra> ah
<ogra> you have a different power applet then i guess
<StevenK> moblin-applets provides one.
<StevenK> Perhaps we want to revisit that decision
<ogra> heh, in the end we'll just merge mobile and ume :P
<persia> Well, that depends on dropping hildon, really.
<nxvl> hi
<nxvl> is there any netbook remix developer here?
<nxvl> i've been testing it in a VM and icons seems not to work
<nxvl> is that a known issue?
<nxvl> (and the right channel?)
<persia> nxvl: Not precisely the right channel, but there isn't really any other.  Sometimes the remix developers are here, although usually it's -mid and -mobile developers.
<pmcgowan> nxvl, i think clutter cant work in the VM
<persia> Oh, yeah, that would be it.  None of the VMs have GL support right now.
<nxvl> pmcgowan: oh! that might be
<nxvl> :(
<nxvl> pmcgowan: i was also wondering, why do ume-launcher it's added to my session automagically, but maximus dont'
<nxvl> don't*
<pmcgowan> nxvl, I'm not sure, you should ask bfiller later when he is in
<nxvl> pmcgowan: thanks, i will do
<nxvl> :D
<emgent> hello
<nxvl> hi
<mockenh> I'm a bit lost as to where to ask for help, I'd be happy if someone could give me a pointer: where can I get information about the lpia port (that AFAIK UME uses as well) and will this port (and if so when) be released as a (cd) image with an installer? I'm running Hardy i386 on a Netbook but much prefer a lpia version for its optimizations.
<ogra> there will likely be a USB key image based off the liveCD creating tools and using ubiquity for intrepid 
<ogra> but not for UME yet
<mockenh> is there any blueprint or any other documentation about this (the lpia port)?
<ogra> the lpia port is there since hardy, not sure there was a blueprint for it 
<ogra> (predates my involvement)
<GrueMaster> The real question is; is your system using the Intel "Poulsbo" chipset or the 945gm chipset?
<ogra> doesnt matter
<ogra> the standard lpia kernel supports 9x5
<mockenh> 945gme I belive
<ogra> poulsbo is still rare in the wild afaik
<GrueMaster> If it's 945gm, stick with the lpiacompat images.  the lpia images have the video driver specific to the GMA500 "Poulsbo" chipset.
<ogra> we'll have a mobile seed thats just gnome with some changes and should easily be possible to turn into a UME desktop ... i'm just in the last steps before uploading a -defaul-sttings package for it 
<ogra> not sure yet if we'll have a downloadable image for it, but using livecd-rootfs you should easily be able to create your own image in intrepid after release 
<mockenh> hm, my knowledge in this area is limited (I'm more af a python app coder), what's the best course of action: be lazy, wait till intrepid is released and use a ready-made installer or get my hands dirty, learn stuff and install hardy-lpia by hand (and where do I start learning how do accomplish that)?
<ogra> as GrueMaster said, there are images ... look at the chanel topic ... but the desktop might not be what you want for a netbook
<ogra> you want the mccaslin image for lpiacompat and i9xx suport 
<mockenh> well, once I got a ubuntu system up and running and got myself a console I think I know how to turn UME into UNR
<ogra> try it :) but YMMV
<mockenh> Let's call it a learning experience :-)
<ogra> heh, yeah
<nxvl> bfiller: hi
<nxvl> bfiller: i've been testing netbook remix and i was wondering why ume-launcher it's added to my session automagically, but maximus doesn't
<nxvl> bfiller: and pmcgowan point me to you for that questions
<mockenh> I can't do disk encryption with that since it's not an installer, right?
<bfiller> nxvl: did you install an official image or just the indivual packages?
<nxvl> just individual packages
<nxvl> is there an oficial image?
<nxvl> i installed hardy on a VM
<nxvl> and then follow the steps into https://edge.launchpad.net/netbook-remix
<bfiller> nxvl: it's probably a bug that ume-launcher is added to your session, maximus .desktop file gets installed by a different configuraton package that is included in the image (it's not on launchpad)
<bfiller> nxvl: as for the image, there is a beta release but I don't believe it's available to the public at the moment
<mockenh> bfiller: interesting, is there any information when an image will be released?
<bfiller> mockenh: probably soon but I don't know an official date
<nxvl> bfiller: yeah that's what i thougt
<bfiller> mockenh, nxvl : everything that is in the beta image is available on launchpad with the exception of the configuration packages, which are usually hardware dependent. So there is not much you are missing
<nxvl> so, there is no much difference other than hardware specific on testing it from the image or from the separate packages
<nxvl> bfiller: also i have one more question
<nxvl> bfiller: does maximus replaces metacity or just complements it?
<bfiller> nxvl: it compliments it. It's a daemon that listens for window open events and maximizes the window (if window class name not in gconf exception list)
<mockenh> bfiller: I kinda thought UNR would also include be based on the lpia port to improve boot up, battery and performance
<mockenh> -include
<bfiller> mockenh: it is based on lpia
<mockenh> bfiller: so that's what the installer would provide me over my current setup of hardy-i386+UNR-PPA packages.
<bfiller> mockenh: that is correct, the installer would install a complete lpia based image. There are lpia version of the packages in the PPA for folks who have an lpia system.
<mockenh> bfiller: I feel less and less confused :-) Now, I just found a daily build of an intrepid-lpia image. If I take that, install the system like I did with hardy-i386 and add the UNR-PPA packages then I have the same system the future installer will create (I wanna make sure I understand this right)
<bfiller> mockenh: it will be close :) Couple of points: UNR has not been tested on intrepid and is currently based on hardy so there may be some issues. Another difference will be the default application set. The UNR installer image will have a slightly reduced/different set of applications installed by default than standard Ubuntu desktop. Other than that and perhaps some modifed gconf defaults, you'll be pretty close.
<mockenh> bfiller: Cool, thanks a bunch for the clarification!
<bfiller> mockenh: no problem
<mockenh> ogra, GrueMaster: and thank you as well :-)
<ogra> btw ymmv with ume-launcher on intrepid
<ogra> it still depends on the hardy clutter version 
<ogra> there is work going on to fix that, but its not been done yet
<ogra> (masterplan is to have the four apps in universe in intrepid afaik though
<ogra> )
<mockenh> ogra: since I discovered gnome-do I de-installed the GNOME menu and ume-launcher ;-)
<ogra> persia, if you get up, ubuntu-mobile-default-settings is uploaded to revu (i dropped dh_gconf in favor of calling update-gconf-defaults manually in postinst/prerm since dh_gconf cant use multiple gconf files and i also have a new panel setup i apply)
<ogra> the seed change to pull in the necessary apps is done as well but needs another meta package build
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-26
<ogra-Q1> /join #ubuntu-devel
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> seems empathy doesnt let you use IRC commands in IRC or i'm to silly to use it
 * ogra-Q1 tries again
<ogra-Q1> /join #ubuntu-motu
<ogra-Q1> now thats just silly
<ogra-Q1> /msg ogra hello
 * ogra-Q1 shakes his head
<ogra-Q1> why the heck do they make /me work but ignore all other IRC commands 
<ogra-Q1> /msg nickserv moo
<ogra-Q1> heh
 * ogra-Q1 considers empathy a security risk that way and uninstalls it
<guruz> lol
<ogra> its insane ....
<ogra> they should at least keep /msg working
<ogra> if people dont want to identify right away they will surely run into showing their pw publically
<davmor2> ogra it does but only on msg page
<StevenK> ogra: "Fun"
<ogra> davmor2, would you expect that ?
<ogra> (without reading the docs i mean)
<ogra> i know a lot of overcautious people that dont save their PW in the app and use /msg nickserv blah
<davmor2> nope but I'm using empathy on my main system as the memory leak on pidgin kept killing it's performance :)
<ogra> well, i use xchat for IRC anyway, but my task this week is to revie IM apps for mobile ... empaty just failed the test with that issue ...
<ogra> its oterwise not worse than pidgin 
<ogra> (i wonder though why they picked gossip as their UI base)
<davmor2> ogra: it was the default gnome one and they wanted to reuse existing code rather than create another new one
<ogra> well, the pidgin UI is likely more used 
 * ogra didnt know gossip was default in gnome2
<davmor2> ogra: to be fair when it is done right it works quite well but I got to admit that not using all the protocols is bloody annoying :)
<ogra> its on a good path, but still not where it shoud be for being mainstream
<davmor2> ogra: try some of the other protocols they make a lot more sense :)
<davmor2> and the smileys look ugly I think :)
<ogra> if i only could remember my jabber account data
<StevenK> ogra: You and me both
<ogra> raaah ... i would just like to close my window but need to approve 1 mio contacts first 
<persia> ogra: ubuntu-mobile-default-settings reviewed.  Adda second ACK, archive, and push at your leisure.
<ogra> you mean i should ACK myself
<ogra> ?
<ogra> fun
<persia> Yep.  Good to have a record of two ACKs, and I don't want to run dput :)
<persia> Just remember to archive after you ACK, and then dput.
<ogra> archived
 * ogra ponders if a ubuntu-mobile-artwork is worth a separate package for a single gtkrc file (actually two changes to the NewHuman gtkrc)
<persia> ogra: Just stuff it in -default-settings (but now you have to wait for NEW)
<ogra> yeah, doesnt matter 
<ogra> artwork deadline is still a month out :)
<ian_brasil> hi...is there some way to stop hardware detection on every boot?
<persia> ian_brasil: You could hardcode module loading.
<ogra> and blacklist the unwanted ones ... but thats a good bunch of work
<ogra> (i hope to write some scripts for intrepid+1 to improve bootspeed )
<ian_brasil> how do i hardcode the modules?
<ogra> put them into /etc/initramfs-tools/modules and run sudo update-initamfs -u
<ogra> that forcefully loads them after initramfs is unpackaed
<ian_brasil> nice!
<ian_brasil> and change /etc/initramfs-tools/initramfs.conf ?
<ogra> no
<ogra> just add them in the modules file
<ian_brasil> understood
<ogra> the file is looped by the load_modules function from /usr/share/initramfs-tools/init
<ogra> (which is the actual init used by initramfs
<ogra> )
<ian_brasil> but what if MODULES still has the value 'most' in the .conf...will it try to pull modules which are not necessary?
<ogra> tats about what modules are copied into the initramfs, not about which ones are probed
<shishirm1> has any tried installed clutter on ubuntu 8.04 or ubuntu netbook remix apps??
<ian_brasil> and to stop a probe on every boot?
<ogra> for that you need to hack up udev
<ogra> (udev needs to probe to create the necessary devcies)
<StevenK> shishirm1: Clutter is already installed for UNR
<shishirm1> unr??
<StevenK> Ubuntu Netbook Remix
<shishirm1> ya 
<shishirm1> i tried that without ume launcher
<shishirm1> so i couldn work with it
<shishirm1> i have a khojinsha sh series notebook
<shishirm1> and it runs intel atom processor
<shishirm1> can i use ume launcher?
 * ian_brasil is not looking forward to hacking udev
<shishirm1> a110 the specific model
<ian_brasil> so the quickest way to speed up boot is through a custom kernel?
<shishirm1> i tried ume on it the touch screen an stuf weren good
<shishirm1> http://www.hclleaptops.in/mileap/product2.asp here is the link of my laptop
<shishirm1> if u can please help me get a touch screen frndly interface on my installed ubuntu 8.04 desktop edition
<ogra> ian_brasil, what would you gain with a custom kernel (apart from having to hack up udev even more)
<ogra> its all about modules
<ian_brasil> ogra: udev takes around 30s on our test machine (geode with a 500 mhz processor)
<ogra> look for the udevsettle command in udevs initrscript
<ogra> comment that part out
<ogra> rebuild the initramfs and try again
<ogra> also you should install bootchart to get a clearer view of whats happening
<ogra> (it will create a png in /var/log/bootchart/ after booting)
<ian_brasil> ogra: dude, you rock.... boot before was 1m 30s and it is now 55s !
<ogra> ;)
<ogra> ian_brasil, but have a close look at your HW ... dropping the udevsettle can cause races ... for i.e. alsa modules, so i'd suggest to test everything 
<ogra> its a safetynet to make sure it works everywhere but usually to slow HW isnt the issue with it ... rather the opposite (booting to fast for HW to show up)
<nxvl> good morning!
<Moc> is there an image for Asus EEE 701 ?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-27
<mgolisch> are there any efforts to port that mobile stuff to non x86 archs?
<mgolisch> i mean there are a lot more mobile/embeded devices which dont have x86 cpus
<persia> mgolisch: Most of it is based on packages in the archives, and most of those are compiled for every architecture Ubuntu supports.
<persia> There are some special package changes for lpia for some packages, but those are considered bugs, and probably ought be fixed.
<persia> For actual devices, I suspect the only other architecture in Ubuntu for which you might find a suitable device is powerpc, but most of the powerpc handhelds are fairly low-spec, and may not meet the base requirements.
<mgolisch> i see, i thought more about nokias tablets or something, but ubuntu doesnt support arm if iam not wrong
<mgolisch> and i guess their processor might actualy be too slow
<persia> No.  Ubuntu doesn't currently build for ARM.  There was talk about it at the past UDS, and a couple community efforts to recompile everything for ARM, but nothing official as of yet.
<mgolisch> ok
<ogra> .oO(you could try to find a sparc handheld)
<suihkulokki> ogra: handheld might be tricky, but netgear sells a NAS with sparc
<ogra> handheld might be a bit hot i bet :)
<persia> There was also the Tadpole series of sparc notebooks.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-28
<lool> tonyespy: bug #1234
<tonyespy> lool: thanks, that works!
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-29
<GrueMaster> Not sure if this is an ubuntu repo issue or a moblin image creator issue, but creating a project target with "crownbeach-with-proprietary" hangs while trying to find either the marvel 8686 wireless firmware or the helix-cip-codecs.
<persia> StevenK: I'm playing with the daily, and still getting a hard system hang in KVM whenever I run apt-get update.  apt-get install seems to work fine.  Any ideas as to what might be happening?
<StevenK> persia: It locks up?
<persia> Yes.  I can't seem to escape with any of the usual suspects (^c ^d ^z)
<persia> Further, once this happens, I can't seem to change virtual terminals.  I'm not sure how to collect debug information, as I'm not getting a crash, and don't have access to the system post-hang for forensics.
<StevenK> That's odd. Only update hangs?
<StevenK> What about something requiring network access?
<persia> No problem.  apt-get install downloads and installs anything I want.
<persia> I'm using kvm -hda ubuntu-mid.img -hdb disk.img -m 512M -net nic -net user
<StevenK> Okay, install strace and strace apt-get update?
<persia> disk.img is a pristine 4G qcow2 image.
<persia> Hmm.  Seems something related to Release.gpg
<persia> Last call is rename("/var/lib/apt/lists/ports.ubuntu.com_ubuntu-ports_disks_intrepid_Release.gpg", "/var/lib/apt/lists/partial/ports.ubuntu.com_ubuntu-ports_dists_intrepid_Release.gpg.reverify"
<persia> There's no close parenthesis or return code.
<persia> This is with the 20080829 image, although I had a similar (less investigated) hang with 20080828.10
<persia> Any ideas why this might happen in the live session?
<StevenK> None :-(
<persia> Right.  Have you tried the image on your hardware?  Does this happen there as well?
<persia> Also, any ideas as to what layer this might occur at?  Generally I don't do much at this level, but I don't know if this is a filesystem issue or a libc issue, or something else.
<persia> A simple mv seems to work, although I've not tried it on that file.
<StevenK> Hm. Is gpg installed?
<StevenK> Does gpg hang the VM?
<persia> gpg is installed.  I'll download the release file, and try verification.
<persia> gpg --verify Release.gpg Release works fine as the ubuntu user.
<StevenK> Odd
<persia> It can't find the public key for 437D05B5, but that's unrelated.
<StevenK> Feed the no verify option to apt-get update and see?
<persia> Calling mv to repeat the move file seems to work.
<StevenK> I'm rsync'ing todays image to try the image on real hardware
<StevenK> And see if X starts
<persia> X doesn't start.
 * StevenK hands persia back the pin he just used
<persia> There's some issue with /etc/event.d/session: it respawns too quickly to get started.
<StevenK> X doesn't start quick enough for upstart?
<persia> Maybe, or maybe there's something else.  That's the second thing I want to fix, but not being able to run apt-get update seems to be the thing that is causing ubiquity to hang, and having ubiquity not hang is my first priority.
<StevenK> Yeah, I'll poke at apt on real hardware when I have the image downloaded
<persia> Running `startx -- -br` brings up the right session, so I'm not feeling the pain as much as for yesterday.
<persia> Australia needs more fiber.
<StevenK> Feel free to run it, I'll wait.
<StevenK> :-P
<persia> Probably faster for you to move somewhere with better bandwidth.
<StevenK> That has its own complications
<StevenK> Anyway, it's 80% done
<persia> So how do I turn off GPG verification in apt again?  I know it's very likely with -o, but I don't see the relevant apt.conf option.
<StevenK> Hmmmm.
<StevenK> persia: Reproduced.
<StevenK> It's strange, the terminal doesn't die, but it isn't so happy
<persia> StevenK: Well, at least that means it's not just me.
<persia> The terminal doesn't die?  How do you mean?
<persia> The process doesn't end?
<persia> Or that it still echoes keystrokes, and just ignores them (which is what I see)
<StevenK> Yes
 * persia learns not to ask "or" questions
<StevenK> persia: It still echoes the keystrokes and does nothing about them.
<StevenK> Which is odd
<persia> Is it?  There's lots of conditions that generate that, including a non-terminating while loop.
<persia> Mind you, CPU usage seems very low in this case, which confuses me.
<StevenK> It should still listen to a SIGINT
<persia> True.  That part is odd.  Can you also not change virtual terminals?
<StevenK> No keyboard connected. Was about to fetch it
<StevenK> persia: Please review maximus 0.3 on REVU at your leisure.
<persia> Beats trying to understand why apt is hanging :)
 * persia pokes REVU to find out why there isn't any maximus there
<persia> StevenK: Where is it?  I don't see it either in the accepted packages or the rejected packages.
<StevenK> persia: It's probably there now.
<StevenK> persia: It was still uploading when I asked.
<persia> Oh :)
<StevenK> apt-get install doesn't work for me either
<StevenK> They both hang in D
<persia> Odd.  I can do apt-get install.
<persia> You're using the 20080829 image?
<StevenK> Yes
<persia> Can you run apt-get install in KVM?
<StevenK> Nope, because I can't run KVM
<persia> Right.  Never mind.  Even with the kqemu modules, qemu is too slow
<persia> More oddly, it works in a chroot.
 * persia downloads the alternate install image to see if the problem is ubuntu-mid specific or architecture-specific
<persia> StevenK: Do you really want to be the maintainer for this package?  Why not MOTU?  It's not in our seeds.
<persia> Right.  Rescue-mode doesn't support apt-get until one executes a chroot into the target system.
<StevenK> persia: MOTU works
<StevenK> persia: I suspect I wasn't thinking
<persia> Could be leftover fatigue from the pre-FF rush.
<persia> I've some other comments, I'll send you the URL when I finish the compilation.
<persia> Mostly issues with debian/copyright
<persia> StevenK: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=maximus commented
<ogra> persia, you are aware that 2.6.26 has issues (mainly kernel oopses) with virtualization ? 
<persia> ogra: For running within virtualised environments?  Also, that doesn't really explain that the problem could be replicated on real HW.
<StevenK> persia: I tried to find the excerpt for GPLv3, and couldn't
<ogra> oh, i didnt read the full backlog ... i just know that at least or kvm/quemu .27 solves that
<ogra> *for
<ogra> sadly not for vbox ... so i'm standing in the rain here
<persia> ogra: .27 in the client, or in the host?
<ogra> .27 isnt the improvement i hoped for at all :/ ... the wireless in the Q1 still doesnt work without madwifi ... the cam still doesnt work ...
<ogra> client
<ogra> bt at least the usplash progressbar isnt broken anymore on my laptop ... thats the only actual improvement i see over .26 for now
<persia> StevenK: Starts on line 635 of /usr/share/common-licenses/GPL-3
<persia> ogra: You're using GDM for session management, right?
<persia> And yeah: I retested all my bugs against the kernel against .27 today, and none appear to be resolved.
<ogra> yep
<persia> ogra: And you're running lpia, right?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> my laptop is a core2duo ... why should i run lpia
<persia> I meant for ubuntu-mobile on your smaller device.
 * StevenK grumbles about get-orig-source
<ogra> the Q1 ? its a celeron, why should i run lpia there ?
<persia> StevenK: Well, it's one thing to be absent.  It's quite another thing to have one that is broken :)
<ogra> or "generic intel" :)
<persia> The Q1 is a celeron?  I thought it was an A100
<ogra> well, its not really clear
<ogra> its an 800MHz intel *something*
<ogra> saying "generic intel" as type
<persia> RIght.  That's the second generation lpia chips.  It's probably an A110
<ogra> it uses the lpiacompat in your image 
 * StevenK reuploads maximus
<ogra> i use generic here atm and dont realy see difference in battery time 
<persia> Well, it's an lpia.  Mind you, I'm running i386 on my lpia device just now as well.
<ogra> i really dont think its lpia
<persia> If you happened to be running lpia, I'd want another check of the apt-get issue, but doesn't really matter.
<persia> Yes, lpia is A100, A110, Atom, and future chips.
<ogra> right
<ogra> and i really dont think it is one :)
<persia> The A100 is usually 600MHz, and the A100 usually 800MHz.  Atoms seem to come in a wide variety of clockspeeds.
<ogra> dmidecode says Pentium M
<persia> Sure, but it's still lpia.
<ogra> i havent seen any Atome reporting pentuim M ever
<persia> You can run i386 on it the same way you can run i386 on an amd64.  Actually, lpia is *lots* closer to i386 than amd64.
<persia> What do they report to dmidecode?
<ogra> no idea, they usually report Atom in /proc/cpuinfo already so i dont bother to look
<ogra> this CPU only shows GenuineIntel
<ogra> but dmidecode shows pentium M properly
<persia> Ah.  I think the main differences between the A100/A110 and a Celeron is that they are slightly more parallel and they have a hard limit of 1G RAM.
<persia> StevenK: As I try to track down why X isn't starting, I suddenly wonder why I am already logged in when I boot.
<persia> Is it perhaps that a special boot sequence is happening that is not driven by the contents of /etc/event.d/ ?
<StevenK> persia: casper logs you in
<persia> StevenK: That's what I thought, but I didn't see where in /etc/casper.conf that was enforced.
 * persia reads more documentation
<lool> We should change the battery icon with a logout one
<persia> Why?  What's the use case for logout?
<lool> I was just jokng because clicking the battery applet crashes hildon
<persia> I see.  In that case, I agree.  While I'll argue against the use case for logout, as long as we have a logout button, it ought be labeled correctly.
<persia> Are you running the daily?  Any ideas why apt-get update doesn't work?
<lool> For some reason network didn't work on startup here
<lool> So I'm chasing why startx isn't run
<lool> persia: Unless you solved that alraedy?
<persia> No.  The event doesn't seem to be triggering, but I've yet to discover why.
<lool> persia: The even probably triggers
<lool> But it doesn't start properly from udev
<lool> err upstart
<persia> What?  The "session" event isn't triggered on boot.
<lool> persia: If you "start session" explicitely, nothing happens
<persia> Mind you, when it triggers it also doesn't work, but when it triggers, it at least reports that it doesn't work to the logs.
<lool> There's no session event, session starts on "runlevel 2" event
<persia> There are two distinct problems.
<persia> There is a session event.  That's why sudo start session ought work.
<persia> Each entry in /etc/event.d is called an "event".  That there isn't anything listening for the session event isn't important.
<lool> Don't you mean "job"?
<persia> No, I mean event.
<lool> start takes a job as parameter
<lool> tty1 isn't an event
<persia> Grumble.
<lool> the event in /etc/event.d/tty1 is that it will triggerred when "stopped rc2" happens
<persia> Right.  The terminology got rationalised for newer versions of upstart, and now upstream has a meaningful distinction between event and job.  That distinction doesn't really exist for the version in intrepid.
<persia> That said, yes, "job" is more accurate.
<lool> Anyway, if you "start session", it wont work; but if you run the command it does
<persia> Yes.
<persia> I'm currently chasing that, although if you want to chase it, that's fine too.
<lool> persia: I'm happy if you chase it; I wonder what's happening
<persia> I'm blocked on installing anything, as ubiquity is hanging.  I think it's the same hang as for apt-get update, but I don't understand that problem at all.
 * persia goes to the MOTU Release meeting to put in good words for mobile stuff
<lool> Haha
<persia> (and probably other motives, yet unexamined)
<lool> "X: user not authorized to run the X server, aborting"
<ogra> lool, well, the more complicated way of logut is open pidgin, go on IRc, join a channel, close window ... 
<ogra> same result
<lool> ogra: I like the one clock logout
<ogra> heh
<ogra> they peobably use the same backend :P
<ogra> *probably
<lool> persia: Solved here
<persia> lool: What did you do differently?
<persia> And what did you solve?
<lool> So either we need to allow ubuntu to start Xorg unconditionally or we need to own a new tty
<lool> It works with "console owner\n respawn\n exec su -l ubuntu "startx..." </dev/tty7 >/dev/tty7 2>&1
<ogra> do we want to be handled as subdistro by the universe team ? 
<lool> I'd like to not hardcode tty7 naturally
<persia> Ah.  Interesting.  I'll look at the casper scripts again.  I think there's a way to make that work with a minor change.
<ogra> seems thats just being discussed next door
 * ogra thinks mobile/mid might qualify
<persia> ogra: We are already a universe flavour.  I'm just trying to make sure we don't need special permission to change things.
<ogra> ah, good
<ogra> thats what i was asking next :) (whats the advantage)
<lool> "console owner" might not be necessary; it works after I remove it, but I need to check whether it's a side effect of the first session
<lool> It's not
<lool> So the only thing which is required is </dev/ttyN >/dev/ttyN 2>&1
<lool> I tried with /dev/tty in prior tests, but it wasn't enough
<lool> persia: I'm not sure casper is relevant; I checked it in the beginning but it defers to starting gdm in autologin
<lool> Hmm even gdm hardcodes 7
<persia> Yeah, there's no easy way around hardcoding.  Can do it in ubuntu-mid-settings then.
<lool> I'm afraid upstart doesn't care about ttys
<lool> So we have nobody to ask for a new one
<lool> It's all done by config right now
<lool> We could of course code something like for tty in 1 .. 20: try_tty
<persia> Right.  Annoying that startx requires a tty, but we can just grab tty7, as that's where we'll be putting X anyway.
<lool> It requires a VT, that's normal
<lool> Let's try with openvt
<lool> Works standalone
<lool> openvt -s -- su -l ubuntu -c startx
<lool> Works in event.d
<persia> Nice discovery.  bzr is up-to-date for ubuntu-mid-default-settings if you want to make the adjustment.
<lool> Let me confirm with a reboot first
<persia> Did you update the change inside the squashfs?
<lool> Hmm shutdown prompts to eject the disk *cough*
<persia> Yeah, well, the effort to generate USB-based installers didn't complete pre-FF, so there was no need to change that.
<persia> lool: Any objections to having authority to approve freeze exceptions for ubuntu-mid?  If not, please speak up in ubuntu-meeting in a couple minutes.
<lool> Anyone has access to a recent system not running kbd?
<lool> It's like to depend on kbd | console-tools, but not sure it's the correct alternative
<persia> lool: You're up for discussion, if you've a minute.
<lool> I should be having lunch
<lool> But it looks like I wont anyway
<persia> lool: No worries.  You were approved.  That ought make things easier if we need universe exceptions.
<lool> Indeed
<ogra> lool, whats your prob with kbd exactly ? 
<lool> persia: pushed
<ogra> i think console-tools is abandoned now
<lool> ogra: No "problem", I just don't want to hardcode a dep on it if openvt is provided by the console -tools alternative
<persia> lool: Cool.  Tomorrow ought bring up X.  apt-get update still doesn't work :(
<lool> persia: Might check this later
<ogra> (which actually only means its in universe so we can still make use of it)
<ogra> persia, is there a doc about the stuff i just accepted (i.e. what power do i have being ubuntu-mobile release manager ... do i still need ubuntu-motu approval for decisions etc ?)
<persia> ogra: Just follow the rest of the meeting.  At first blush, I believe it means you can grant freeze exceptions for some packages without further review.  I don't know which packages yet.
<ogra> ah, good ...
<ogra> well, i guess that will be the unr stuff :) 
<ogra> or all things in the seed
<lool> Grr bzr: ERROR: Invalid url supplied to transport: "lp:~ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mid-default-settings": No such project: ~ubuntu-mobile
<lool> The branch seems to be in ~ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mid-default-settings instead
<persia> Indeed.  We've no special ubuntu-mid project (and don't really want one, I think)
<lool> But "/ubuntu-mid-default-settings" is usually branch codename
<persia> Yeah, but one isn't permitted to attach branches to teams.  Blame LP, or wait until it permits branches associated with the disro.
<lool> persia: In the mean time, we could register the project
<persia> lool: I don't see any benefit having such a project
<lool> persia: Well we could get a clean branch name for one
<persia> lool: But that's the only advantage, and we then have to dal with managemnt of a product.
<persia> Seriously, the package is maybe 20 lines of code.  it doesn't represent a project.
<lool> It's the same thing each time you want to forward bugs to an upstream project; it's just Launchpad pain I live with
<persia> I'd rather just not use BZR than bother doing it that way.
<persia> See, I don't see any value to taking on extra pain.  We've a perfectly good project already.
<lool> The problem is with stuffing branck nicks below the same project
<lool> I wouldn't mind using subprojects
<lool> But it's not one
<persia> Why is it a problem to do that?  I work in several other projects with multiple branches for multiple packages.
<lool> You wouldn't merge ubuntu-mobile-defaults-settings with ubuntu-mobile-artwork
<lool> They should be namespaced
<persia> Yes, but LP is broken, so we do it with multiple never-merging branches for now.
<persia> Fixing LP is on the roadmap, and when it gets fixed, we can do it right.
<lool> Or LP is broken that it requires you to file projects even for trivial stuff
<persia> Otherwise we end up with a mess of projects we need to delete later.
<persia> Yes, precisely.
<lool> Yup, precisely!
<persia> There is a spec to allow packages to be managed in BZR.  While I happen to think there's no point whatsoever in doing this, it is the appropriate solution for the use case.
<persia> That said, it doesn't make sense to me to abuse LP as a workaround when a perfectly good workaround that doesn't require an extra project registration exists.
<persia> Also, by using multiple branches against the same project, it means that we don't get more projects to collect bugs, which then confuses people less, which is a good thing.
<lool> So where I to develop a new version of ubuntu-mid-default-settings with a new feature, where would I put it exactly in ~ubuntu-mobile?
<persia> lp:~ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mid-default-settings
<lool> A new feature which isn't ready for trunk, you know a feature branch
<persia> After release, we also create a lp:~ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mid-default-settings.Intrepid branch to use for SRUs.
<persia> Oh, just stick it in lp:~lool/ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mid-default-settings-gdm or something
<persia> Doesn't really matter, as long as it can be collected or merged.
<lool> Which is why I mentionned in ~ubuntu-mobile :)
<persia> What's the use case that wants that?
<lool> Working with other people on the feature?
<persia> And why can't you each just merge from each other's trunks?
<lool> Of course I could start the ubuntu-mobile-ubuntu-mid-default-settings-gdm team
<lool> persia: Because you want a trunk for the feature branch as well?
<persia> And now we get down to where conventional thoughts on how to manage DVCS break down.
<lool> My point is you're effectively changing the expected Launchpad bzr/code workflow
<persia> Then use lp:~ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu-mid-default-settings-gdm, but I still think that any management model that encourages that results in lots of useless branching.  I'd rather see it done in trunk.
<persia> Was this actually a project with a significant codebase, I may feel otherwise.
<persia> Yes, I think that the expected LP/bzr workflow is inherently broken.
<persia> IT doesn't make sense to have 1000 trunks.
<lool> I don't want to change my workflow per package or project I'm working on; there are enough special cases that I have to keep in mind already
<persia> It makes sense to have maybe a couple of trunks for a big project, but generally to have just one trunk.
<lool> My point is that we should avoid exceptions
<persia> Feature branches are interesting, but there's no reason one can't merge against another feature branch, and trunks for feature branches don't scale well.
<persia> Sure, but this would change the workflow for me for just this project.  Every other project for which I must use bzr follows the named-branches under a single project workaround whilst waiting for LP to become unbroken.
<persia> As a result, I don't see changing it as avoiding exceptions.
<persia> Mind you, if you *really* want to manage another project, I won't stop you, I just think it's useless.
<persia> StevenK: http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=maximus (and no, I'm not staying up to hear your response to my comments)
<lool> persia: I can reproduce the apt-get issue now that network works
<lool> I'm afraid I can't even apt-get install to diagnose
<lool> I suspect it's purely some kvm/kernel bug
<persia> lool: Great.  It's a little beyond what I know how to even properly describe, but it's blocking me.
<persia> On the other hand, I'm sure it's not just KVM, because StevenK reproduced on real HW.
<lool> persia: Hmm do you think you could pick up rebuilding python-hildon without hildon-fm support?
<lool> It currently prevents update-manager-hildon to startup
<persia> Then let's drop update-manager-hildon :)
<persia> Actually, I'll take another look: from using update-manager in intrepid, I think it's not required anymore.
<persia> But I'll take a look at python-hildon / hildon-fm on Monday, if it still needs attention.
<persia> Mind you, if apt-get worked, I'd be more interested in other things.
<davidm> I think Bug #230691 is related to users not knowing that they need to bring up the file browser to remove the USB stick and when they don't "correctly" remove the stick it keeps incrementing.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 230691 in ubuntu-mobile "USB mount points are incremented each time a device is mounted" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/230691
<lool> Ok, but I don't think there's any constraint that /media be properly cleaned up when users don't unmount key properly
<lool> Or that's very minor wishlist for faster cleanup
<lool> persia: Doesn't happen with the daily amd64 live CD
<lool> Could very well be kernel though
<Celtiore> hi from france
<Celtiore> who have try to put ubuntu mobile on mid aigo p8860 ?
<nxvl> \o/
<mgolisch> eah
<mgolisch> ups
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-30
<Celtiore> hi from france
<Celtiore> who have try to put ubuntu mobile on mid aigo p8860 ?
<persia> I've not heard of anyone doing the install.  Which processor does that use?
<Celtiore> atom
<Celtiore> http://forum.pocketables.net/showthread.php?p=7666
<Celtiore> but i can't change boot method
<Celtiore> i put ubuntu img on usb-disk but it can't boot
<persia> How did you put the ubuntu.img on the usb-disk?
<Celtiore> dd if=mid-8.04.1-menlow-install-usb.img of=/dev/sdb1
<Celtiore> is it correct ,
<Celtiore> ?
<persia> Yeah.  That's correct.  From seeing that someone else had it boot, I'm not sure why it didn't work.
<Celtiore> ok
<persia> Some people report better success when they use dd if=mid-8.04.1-menlow-install-usb.img of=/dev/sdb bs=1024k
<Celtiore> perhaps if i put img on cd and after boot from usb-cdrom ?
<Celtiore> ok
<persia> That might work.  I've heard of people putting CD images on USB keys successfully, but this would be the first I've heard of putting a USB image on a CD.
<Celtiore> ok lol
<Celtiore> i try with bs=1024k first
<Celtiore> thx persia , i can boot now
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-08-31
<askvicto1> what's the difference between ubuntu-mid and ubuntu-mobile in intrepid?
<persia> askvicto1: They are are different collections of software, intended for different purposes.  Ubuntu MID is hildon-based and targets 4-6" devices.  Ubuntu Mobile is GNOME-based and targets 7-9" devices.  Larger devices are presumed covered by -desktop.
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-24
<julius> hi
<julius> i would like to learn about how poulsbo/drm/kernel are related, where would you start?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-25
<micahg> does anyone know of a smartphone list that can run Ubuntu Mobile?
<jmc93739653> micahg: Ubuntu Mobile has, up toward the present, been an x86 only, distribution variant.
<jmc93739653> micahg: [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Mobile
<micahg> ok, is there a channel for MID?
<jmc93739653> micahg: [1] http://people.canonical.com/~ogra/mobile/
 * micahg wants to run ubuntu on a smartphone
<jmc93739653> This is the place  for MIDs and higher-end mobile handsets.  :)  From what bits of information I have,  there are efforts underway to add ARM along-side x86 for the next Ubuntu Mobile release.
<micahg> ok, any idea which phones that would work for?
<micahg> would it be able to work as a normal handset as well?
<micahg> after the Palm Pre phoning home blog post, I'd like to know what's installed on my phone
<playya_> which processor is in the palm pre?
<micahg> idk
<micahg> I don't want to buy it anymore
<micahg> I'd rather get a phone that can run Ubuntu
<playya_> you need at least a arm5 processor
<playya_> but maybe you want to join #ubuntu-arm
<jmc93739653> playya_: The Palm Pre uses a TI OMAP3430, if I'm recalling properly.  (The iPhone 3GS does too, I believe)
<micahg> thanks, I'm asking in #ubuntu-arm
<playya_> ok. jmc93739653 thats the same as the n800?
<playya_> btw. nokia gave a preview on n900
<jmc93739653> playya_: The N900 uses the TI OMAP3430, the N800 & N810 used up Nokia's excess inventory of OMAP2420's  :)
<playya_> ok
<playya_> i'll buy a palm pre
<playya_> and maybe i should focus on some n800 projects to get one of those cheap n900s
<jmc93739653> playya_: I want to see images of the N900's screen.  1024x600?  OLED or AMOLED screen, or a newer spin on the N810's transflective LCD?  And the keyboard with backlighting.
<playya_> n900 has one thing I'm missing in my n800: a GSM modem
<jmc93739653> playya_: Deutsche Telekom (AKA T-Mobile) is planning on rolling out N900's bundled with data plans.
<playya_> grrr. i sign my next contract with o2
<playya_> atm its vodafone and i want to leave these bit***
<jmc93739653> playya_: You could be rocking a fantastically low-end "pre-pay as you go" Motorola flip-phone like me :)
<playya_> no. i want to run ubuntu/openmoko on it
<playya_> and i'll keep my n95 or freerunner as primary device jmc93739653 
<jmc93739653> playya_: I would too, if I were you :)  Ironically, Nokia paid for 3D acceleration drivers for the N95, but decided not to do so for the N96.
<playya_> but the prototypes used the accelerations
<jmc93739653> playya_: I'm just an average nerd.  The closest I've been to a mobile handset prototypes have been through FCC RF-emission compliance tests, whispered code-names or leaked photos.  :-/
<playya_> i worked for nokia during my practical semester and they already had n96, n86, n810, ...
<playya_> and some other cool stuff
<jmc93739653> playya_: Very nice.  :)
<jmc93739653> playya_: I've had Android running on the N800.  As well as native N800 "Diablo" NAND images running on QEMU.
<jmc93739653> playya_: I was impressed by the performance of earlier Android images -- running it natively on a 400 MHz ARMv6 was by _far_ faster than Android via QEMU-0.8.x on a 2000 MHz x86 (Dothan, 90 nm, 2048 KiB L2).
<playya_> i had it once on my freerunner
<playya_> but i switched back to shr for development jmc93739653 
<jmc93739653> playya_: The "N800 vs. Pentium-M 755" boxing-match had TI's OMAP2420 flat-out _embarrassing_ one of the more elegant, and aggressively single-thread/integer-perf. tuned x86 CPUs to hit mass production.
<jmc93739653> playya_: I keep waiting for consumer-level, Freescale i.MX51 family devices to get to market. But the schedule keeps slipping.
<AD-N770> hello all
<AD-N770> there's ubuntu developers involved with belmont on that channel ?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-26
<konsatntin> hi all.
<konsatntin> one little question, is it posible to install mid ubuntu into nokia e51 ?
<playya> konsatntin, nope
<z3k3> any thoughts on moblin vs UNR?
<derekS> z3k3: i tried both. i use unr. moblin imho is better (boots faster, nicer UI, etc). It lacked a lot though, and UNR is a much better end user solution
<derekS> easy to add extra software
<derekS> different codecs
<derekS> etc
<derekS> moblin is cool, but not ready for users to use thoguh
<z3k3> thanks derek
<z3k3> what you say pretty much sums up what i'm reading
<z3k3> rough edges around moblin
<z3k3> moblin does look pretty tho
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-27
* lool changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to: Latest addition: UMR http://people.canonical.com/~lool/moblin-virtualbox.png | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/FAQ
<derekS> lool: moblin on UNR?
<lool> No just moblin
<lool> on Ubuntu
<lool> Ubuntu Moblin Remix
<derekS> lool: does it work as well as original moblin?
<derekS> or just a poc?
<lool> It's the first image we output on cdimage, it's not even developer preview quality
<derekS> lool: ok
<derekS> lool: and there i no intention of merching this into UNR?
<reedler> I am trying to install ubuntu and nghost on a laptop to start working on a carputer. I am having some issues getting nghost to install. Anyone here working on something similar or have a suggestion to go a different route
<ian_brasil> lool, hey thats cool
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-28
<konsatntin> hi all
<konsatntin> i have a little problem
<konsatntin> i'm trying to install mobilin into virtualbox
<konsatntin> and i have this message when mobilin booting from live cd
<konsatntin> /etc/rc5.d/s99sreadahead-pack: line 6: 714 Illegal instruction mv readahead.packed /etc/readahead.racked
<konsatntin> any ideas ?
<lool> konsatntin: Which moblin is this?
<konsatntin> latest (august) version
<lool> konsatntin: That's not from us
<lool> konsatntin: Ask the people you got it from
<lool> It's because virtualbox is not emulating what they expect
<konsatntin> ok then another question. could i run ubuntu mid into virtualbox ?
<lool> Yes
<lool> You can even run Ubuntu Moblin Remix in virtualbox which is based on Moblin
<lool> but it's not really ready for you to try out; it's not starting up properly
<konsatntin> ok i'll start from mid release =)
<lool> davidbarth: Hey!
<lool> njpatel:  Did you make progress on the translations issue with David?
<njpatel> lool: nope, I asked him some questions on the bug regarding the lack of a netbook-launcher.mo, but haven't heard anything back
<njpatel> lool: I'm still working on the bug, so hopefully some resolution soon
<lool> njpatel: What about the gnome-menus part?
<njpatel> lool: that's what I'm working on
<lool> Ok
<njpatel> lool: if I compile netbook-launcher on my desktop, it works fine. If i use the launcher installed from archives, it doesn't. I'm still trying to track down what's changed
<lool> njpatel: Does it have any reference to the gnome-menus mo dir?
<njpatel> lool: well, liblauncher is the part that deals with gnome-menus, so I'm wondering if the issue is in there
<njpatel> lool: i'm trying to track it down, I bet it's something really silly (hopefully)
<lool> njpatel: What I found sometimes help is running strings on the binary to see which dirs it has for locales
<njpatel> lool: good idea
<lool> njpatel: e.g. strings =gnome-panel |grep locale
<lool> libnetbook-launcher doesn't have any
<lool> netbook-launcher has /usr/share/locale
<lool> njpatel: I tried using langsel to switch to french and it semi worked for me
<lool> njpatel: I got to see Navigateur Web Firefox in the apps list
<lool> "Gestionnaire de photos f-spot"
<njpatel> lool: right, that only works for desktop files whose translations are still in the .desktop file afaik
<lool> Oh ok
<njpatel> lool: we really need to figure out what's going on with the .mo files that the launcher produces. They are being stripped but not being made part of the langpack for some reason
<lool> njpatel: You need to use a specific glib API to benefit of langpacks IIRC
<njpatel> lool: fixing that will fix both the netbook-launcher translations (strings specific to netbook-launcher) and the menu translations
<njpatel> lool: that's already covered by the fact that we just use gnome-menus
<lool> glib patch is 01_gettext-desktopfiles.patch:
<lool> Oh right
<njpatel> lool: seriously, it's just the netbook-launcher.mo for the different languages thats the issue
<njpatel> lool: it could just be a packaging bug
<lool> njpatel: So gnome-menus isn't an issue anymore?
<njpatel> lool: nope, it never was. The issue is that, because netbook-launcher.mo doesn't exist for the installed languages, bindlocaledomain screws up the rest of the translations happening in the launcher. 
<njpatel> lool: looking at the packaging of the launcher in karmic, it seems that /usr/share/locale/* is in netbook-launcher.install, so they are definitely part of the package when it's built. The issue must be when the package is stripped then
<lool> Sorry phone call now
<njpatel> np
<njpatel> i just rebuilt netbook-launcher and the package contained the translations, so it's definitely the stripping of the translations that's causing it
<lool> njpatel: Oh good catch
<lool> njpatel: didn't think lack of netbook-launcher.mo would affect gnome-menus trasnlations
<lool> njpatel: So we really need to look into this langpack issue now
<njpatel> lool: it seems that, if you send the wrong domain information to bindlocaledomain or if that domain isn't available, it messes up the fallbacks too
<lool> njpatel: I killall-ed netbook-launcher and it didn't come back; shouldn't it be autorespawned?
<njpatel> lool: hmm, it isn't at the moment...maybe it should
<njpatel> lool: can you file a bug and I'll take a look next week
<lool> Sure
<lool> done
<davidbarth> lool: where's the status page you'd like me to update? btw, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus#Netbook%20%28UNR%29
<lool> davidbarth: I usually prepare it on Friday morning but am late today
<lool> davidbarth: I pushed the new netbook-launcher though
<lool> davidbarth: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic is usually ours will ping you when ready
<lool> davidbarth: I'm done
<lool> davidbarth: Your report looks good thanks
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-08-29
<Ubuntu__> How to i Connect to a wireless network/ wi5 in my house by my mobile or can connect using bluetooth.My mobiles are Sony Ericsson W550i and K320i
<Ubuntu__> Can i load linux on my mobile??
