#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-07
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : /topicth the command "date --utc"
<Seveas> ah narf
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] :  Tue 31 May 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda|| Tue 6 June May 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Kamion] :  Tue 31 May 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda|| Tue 6 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
(mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) welcome, everyone
(ogra/#ubuntu-meeting) hey :=
(ogra/#ubuntu-meeting) :)
(Nafallo/#ubuntu-meeting) sabdfl: evening
(ajmitch/#ubuntu-meeting) hi
(ivoks/#ubuntu-meeting) evening
(dholbach/#ubuntu-meeting) hey
(fabbione/#ubuntu-meeting) evening
(zul/#ubuntu-meeting) evening sabdfl 
(mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) MaintainerCandidates is stale; there are people at the top who were already processed
(mdz/#ubuntu-meeting) is " Daniel 'Daniel N' Neuenschwander" present?
<mdz> how about AnteKaramatic?
<ivoks> here
<ivoks> evening all
* diamond is currently attempting to move self to active list on that page. damn slow net conn -/
<ogra> hey ivoks  :=
<ogra> ;)
<ivoks> ogra: ;)
<mdz> ivoks: so you have been working with the MOTU team?
<ivoks> mdz: for couple of weeks, yes
<ivoks> mostly on cxx transition
<diamond> apologies for not showing up the last time btw, lost net access for the last week -/
<mdz> ogra,dholbach: what is your assessment?
<dholbach> he did QUITE a lot of work on the c++ transition
<ogra> mdz, seen my last mail to -devel ?
<ogra> :=)
<mdz> ogra: I doubt it
<ogra> thumbs up from me
<mdz> in your opinion, is he ready to make unreviewed uploads to universe?
<dholbach> he is unstoppable and works nice with the team, i'm happy with ivoks on our side
<ivoks> ok... if I can say something...
<\sh> ivoks++ ..hes great
<mdz> ivoks: of course
<ivoks> i;m not planing to do unreviewd uploads right away..
<ivoks> i'm more of a team player
<ivoks> and will allways want second oppinion on somethign
<ogra> i know he doesnt feel safe yet, but his changes were good and you could see the learning curve, he works tight with \sh and herve, so it would be ok for me 
<ivoks> same thing with packages
<mdz> ivoks: well, that is the privilege we are discussing: if you are granted upload privileges, it is left to your discretion
<dholbach> hey jani
<jani> hey dholbach :), all
<mdz> ivoks: so I should rather say, "ready to choose whether an upload requires review"
<ivoks> mdz: right
<mdz> does anyone else have anything to say regarding ivoks?
<ogra> \sh,  ??
<\sh> yeah
<dholbach> doko?
<ajmitch> no, apart from that he'd be a welcome addition to the team
<ogra> herve is missing sadly...
<dholbach> i highly appreciate this sense of cautiousness
<\sh> what i saw from ivoks, it was good enough (for me)...and when something wasn't ok, he fixed it accordingly
<sabdfl> ivoks: looks like you've been working with software for some time
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'm happy with ivoks as motu
<sabdfl> nonetheless, software from Universe goes out to thousands of computers, so it requires a high level of responsibility
<ivoks> sabdfl: well, my job requiers me to to that, so one learns something on the way
<ivoks> sabdfl: i know, i'm ready for it
<ivoks> responsibility, that is
<sabdfl> erk
* sabdfl was reading the wrong wiki page
<\sh> ivoks grew in the last couple of weeks (imho)
<ogra> sabdfl, ivoks is ver cautious about his work and always asks for a second opinion
<sabdfl> you're not actually 16, are you
<ivoks> sabdfl: nope, 23
<elmo> SPETHIAL
<sabdfl> 'k
<sabdfl> i'll shut up then
<sabdfl> was trying to find a nice way to put it
<ivoks> :)
<mdz> ivoks == AnteKaramatic
<ivoks> yes
<ogra> elmo, very :)
<mdz> Keybuk,sabdfl: thumbs up/down?
<sabdfl> ivoks: given your clustering experience, have you come across the SSI project?
<sabdfl> which clustering solution would you think best for ubuntu?
<Keybuk> motu seem keen, so I'll give him an up
<ivoks> sabdfl: no, i played only with mosix
<Keybuk> and he seems to have humility
<sabdfl> +1 for ivoks from me
* dieman mostly uses condor
<jbailey> .msg Keybuk Like you'd know it if you ever saw it...
<mdz> +1 from me as well
<ivoks> sabdfl: well, this is load balancing cluster, wich works good with sarge, don't see why it wouldn't do same with ubuntu
<mdz> ivoks: congratulations
<ogra> HOORAYY
<fabbione> mosix is nice
<fabbione> +1
<fabbione> :)
<\sh> yes
<diamond> ivoks: grats
<ogra> congrats ivoks 
<sabdfl> welcome, ivoks
<ivoks> ok, it's like draming :)
<\sh> ivoks: welcome :) and congrats :)
<mdz> diamond: what is your name?
<ivoks> thanks all
<dholbach> WOW ivoks! ROCK!
<diamond> mdz: Stephen Shirley#
<ogra> yeah
<mdz> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/StephenShirley
<diamond> mdz: see apology above about not turning up last time (if you haven't seen it) btw
* diamond nods
<ajmitch> ivoks: good work, welcome :)
<ivoks> ajmitch: thanks
<surak> ivoks: congrats
<mdz> diamond: no worries
<ivoks> surak: thanks
<ivoks> thank you all
<mdz> last week's meeting was announced on short notice and few people were able to make it, it seems
<Nafallo> ivoks: congrats :-)
<mdz> feedback from the MOTU team on diamond's work thus far?
<dholbach> Stephen "Captain Pedantic Pants" Shirley did great work before the hoary release, i remember some non-trivial cases he fixed
<ivoks> Nafallo: :) tnx
<dholbach> but you've been busy in the last time, diamond, right?
<ogra> yep.. he was quite active in hoary
<diamond> dholbach: aye
<ogra> and did a good work
<ajmitch> far more active than some of us other MOTUs :)
<diamond> dholbach: i do sys admin for the university computer club, it's been chewing up a lot of my time recently with irc setup, i'd like to merge some of that work into ubuntu (and upstream) if i can
<sabdfl> diamond: your packages are quite diverse, any particular focus you'd like to bring to ubuntu?
<diamond> sabdfl: ah, yeah, those packages are mainly fixed because they were on the list, and i could figure out the isse. my focus is stuff like flexibile authenticaion. the above irc stuff is mainly a pam patch to ircd-hybrid that was written by one of the guys in the comp soc, i'd made a debian package that we're using, i'd like to get it more widespread. that sort of thing
<diamond> i'd like to see kerberos auth available for everything,
<diamond> ssl enabled (or at least enabable) for all services, things like that
<sabdfl> cool, thanks
<sabdfl> sounds good to me
<Mithrandir> krb5++
<mdz> Keybuk: +/- ?
<JaneW> hi, sorry I am late - connection problems
<diamond> i'm like ivoks in that i don't intend to upload anything without review for some time
<Keybuk> ogra, dholbach?  + or - from you?
<diamond> i've been doing development for a while, but i'm fairly new to debian packaging
<ogra> +
<dholbach> i'm absolutely happy with him
<Keybuk> ok + from me
<ogra> sorry got dragged away for a sec.)
<\sh> g'evening JaneW 
<ivoks> jupi
<mdz> + from me, on the basis that he'll seek review and guidance from MOTU where appropriate
<mdz> diamond: congratulations
<diamond> mdz: thank you -)
<mdz> is there anyone else here who is seeking approval for upload/maintainership?
* dholbach is sooo happy :)
<ogra> yay 
* diamond does a happy dance that no-one ever needs to see. *cough*
<ogra> heh
* dholbach hugs diamond and ivoks 
* pitti likes to see the MOTUs grow :-)
<pitti> congrats ivoks and diamond 
<\sh> diamond: welcome on board :) and congrats :)
* ogra higs the three
<ogra> hugs even
<sabdfl> is there a complete list of the MOTU team anywhere?
<mdz> sabdfl: I was just wondering the same
<dholbach> http:///wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<\sh> wiki/MOTU ?
<dholbach> oops, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<JaneW> dholbach: :)
<ogra> ivoks, diamond please add yourself there ;)
<mdz> is that 20 members now, then?
<ogra> yep
<dholbach> yes, mdz :)
<mdz> excellent
<ivoks> will do :)
<mdz> thanks to ogra, dholbach and the rest of the team for successfully recruiting and nurturing new arrivals
<sabdfl> seed change proposals?
<surak> diamond: congrats
<diamond> yeah, bigtime re: ogra and dholbach
<ogra> sabdfl, serpentine for main please :)
<mdz> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SupportedSeedProposals
<dholbach> mdz: i completely enjoy it ... the team itself works just fine
<mdz> seb128: is seahorse a reasonable thing to have in main?
<ogra> hmm, did it stop breaking things ?
<mdz> if it's experimental, we should wait
<ogra> i heard about doubled entrys and the like
<seb128> mdz: I've not really used it, I can have a look but no opinion on it atm
<Keybuk> that's a really out of date list
<mdz> yes, we haven't looked at it in quite some time
<mdz> due to the release
<Mithrandir> it was last reviewed in mataro, wasn't it?
<Keybuk> should we officially approve mono for main, or have we already done that? :)
<mdz> there are some no-brainers on here
<ogra> we should have a better system for package proposals then the wiki... MOTU is just disussing that
<mdz> consensus on mono has always been that we should let germinate handle it
<mdz> and seed the apps we want
<pitti> Keybuk: I reviewed it, fine for me
<Keybuk> yeah, that makes sense for me
<mdz> so are there mono apps we should put in main?
<mdz> is tseng around?
<\sh> ogra: we forgot to put this on the agenda ;)
* pitti anticipates the cry for eagle
<pitti> beagle, even
<ogra> mdz, Kamion has the list since last week
<Keybuk> there's nothing else on that list that immediately leaps to _my_ attention; so I guess we should ask for proposers to step forward to advocate their app?
<mdz> patch-36
<mdz>     add beagle, monodevelop, tomboy to supported (ogra)
<mdz> so they're already done
<mdz> and we just need to resync the archive
<sabdfl> yay for tomboy
<Keybuk> sabdfl: you installed it yet? :p
<mdz> latex-ucs seems like a no-brainer, given pitti's approval
<pitti> I still think latex-ucs would be a nice addition, but maybe there are not so many latex users in Ubuntu...
<ogra> sabdfl, wiki links in notes ? ;)
<sabdfl> waiting for it in main :-)
<mdz> sasl2-bin is a no-brainer, given that its source is already in main
<pitti> mdz: there is not much potential for breakage, also security-wise
<dieman> pitti: i've got a fair number of latex users.
<Mithrandir> pitti: seconded.
<Keybuk> I've never used latex-ucs, how is it different from latex?  or is just the same with utf-8 .tex file support?
<\sh> mdz: much more important should be the applications using sasl2 ;)
<pitti> mdz: so I can seed it?
<sabdfl> mdz: rather than getting caught on the detail of the packages, maybe it's worth talking about the policy for supported?
<sabdfl> for our initial releases it's been strictly what the full-time team felt comfortable supporting
<mdz> sabdfl: I think that's sufficiently documented already, no?
<mdz> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SeedManagement
<Keybuk> fdclock jumps out as a "why do we need yet another clock, let alone support it" to me
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: it can be thrown around? :-P
<Keybuk> and vnc4server ... doesn't vino already cover that?
<sabdfl> as the team grows, we should have the ability to put something in supported if we have sufficient commitment from the community that we think it will actually get supported
<Keybuk> (though maybe that's more of a desktop worry than supported)
<mdz> all proposals require review/approval from the core team regarding security and supportability
<sabdfl> i don't think having someone just say "i'll do it" is sufficient
<mdz> currently that's delegated to pitti, which has been working well so far
<sabdfl> we need to have a strong feeling that it will happen
<mdz> pitti: I already did
<sabdfl> but i would be more open to persuasion if we had a list of names of people who are strongly active in the project who support any of those items
<pitti> mdz: thanks
<sabdfl> something can still be supported ad-hoc in universe, in the sense that updates can also be posted to universe packages post-release
<ogra> sabdfl, the MOTU team still needs to grow for such things... trasitions eat our manpower....
<mdz> we should probably have a "so you think that package 'foo' should be in Ubuntu main?" how-to document
<mdz> pitti: could you draft something like that?
<sabdfl> the criteria for main should be that we can provide an absolute assurance of pitti-like security updates, without requiring the clone-pitti branch to have landed
<mdz> pitti: include some guidelines about things that you look for in review, so that the proposer can consider those before even requesting review
<pitti> mdz: yes, I can
<mdz> pitti: great, thanks
<sabdfl> well, my point is that we should have a plan to scale main beyond what pitti can handle
<sabdfl> but not beyond the point where we are in any doubt of the quality we can deliver
<pitti> sabdfl: right now the reviews didn't take so much of my time, it's the updates that do :-)
<sabdfl> pitti: the updates are the most important bit
<ogra> but that requires a working sec team for universe.... we still dont have it...
<sabdfl> i don't see anything on the list that i would want to devote your time to for updates
<pitti> sabdfl: right, that's why I don't really like software with a bad security history (which I'm evaluating for the decision)
<sabdfl> but we should be willing to consider anything on the list if there is a team of people who will provide the update assurance for it
<\sh> ogra: and it will be more difficult when the server projects fires up for real life
<pitti> ogra: well, we have the beginnings, but it needs to be developed much further
<mdz> thom: do you know if NM's wpa support will use wpa-supplicant, or be native?
<sabdfl> pitti: agreed - it shouldnt get in if it doesn't pass the review
<ajmitch> ogra: there's a start on a security team for universe
<mdz> at any rate, I've seen quite a number of requests for wpa-supplicant
<mdz> the protocol seems to be gaining ground
<ogra> but the start is there since quite some time, i dont see it evolving yet
<mdz> pitti: please add wpa-supplicant to your queue for review; if you're happy with it, it should move into main
<ajmitch> mdz: definitely, it's something that ideally should be done via network manager
<pitti> mdz: added to my todo
<Keybuk> is there any sense in an idea of having main-proposals accompanied by a spec, with appropriate people leading, seconding or expressing interest in it -- including plans for it being in main?
<JaneW> Keybuk: isn't that what's happening now?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: great idea
<Keybuk> JaneW: those proposals don't have specs
<sabdfl> JaneW: this is very ad-hoc
<mdz> sabdfl,Keybuk: that's going to be overkill in most cases
<Keybuk> Kamion would need to check each one too, as one package could drag in half of universe through germinate
<sabdfl> difficult to look at "foobarmatic" and contribute to the discussion unless you know what it is. who wants it, who will look at it, who will watch the upstream mailing list for security updates, etc
<Keybuk> mdz: a spec can be just a single page saying why the program rocks
<Keybuk> it doesn't have to be 2000 words on plans for it
<pitti> Keybuk: ... and why it won't break much :-)
<mdz> I like the idea, I just don't think we can require it for all cases
<mdz> e.g., sasl2-bin
<sabdfl> having a page like that gives us place to put a motivation, and document the process, such as whether or not it has been reviewed
<sabdfl> mdz: happy for you to fasttrack things
<Keybuk> mdz: we can always just rubberstamp obvious things
<mdz> ok, agreed then
<sabdfl> but where suggestions come in that aren't immediately YES to the TB
<mdz> pitti: the proposed document should specify that proposals be accompanied by a written rationale
<\sh> mdz: the combination makes it...sasl2 is nice for postfix + cyrus imapd e.g. and postfix is in main and cyrus imapd is old (ubuntu version)
<mdz> pitt is authoring the proposed specification for proposal specifications :-)
* pitti phears recursivity
<mdz> we definitely need a place to record rationale
<mdz> there are things on SupportedSeedProposals that we can't put in main
<mdz> but I don't want to just delete them
<pitti> mdz: I think a small wiki page which has the rationale and the points I usually do for review would be fine
<Mithrandir> add a new section with "Can't be put in main"
<Mithrandir> ?
<Kamion> hi, sorry I'm late
<elmo> Kamion: part timer
<Kamion> Keybuk: germinate> elmo does a post-hoc check on that when adding them to the archive, too
<\sh> mdz: so if i like to see an application in main, will it pull the "security deps" into main, too?
<mdz> \sh: "security deps"?
<Kamion> .msg elmo slack-jawed hippy
<mdz> Mithrandir: that's basically what I'm doing now
<\sh> mdz: sasl2 is such a thing, postfix+imapd+sasl2 are belonging together for strong auth
<mdz> elmo: you actually use scponly?
<elmo> mdz: err, not really, no
<elmo> that page is freakin ancient
<mdz> elmo: please delete any of your stuff from there that is no longer interesting
<mdz> I've saved my edits
<mdz> I've seeded the obvious ones
<Keybuk> if we spec-process it, we could replace that page with one on a moin wiki containing some magic to show all pages with SupportedSeedProposal in them ... and then split based on whether it's a draftspec, rejected, etc.
<mdz> the rest of them will need rationales according to the process pitti is documenting
<mdz> so let's move on with the agenda
<mdz> jbailey: what's the rationale for this oo.o2 stuff?
<mdz> we don't have the option of backing down on oo.o2 now; it's already part of desktop
<jbailey> mdz: Pulling the Java stuff in to main right now brings two compilers and 3 vms in.  Now that toolchaintransition is mostly done, I can start cleaning it up.
<Kamion> the rationale is that it won't build with just main at the moment, and that means we don't get to try out and fix up new milestones
<elmo> mdz: is there anything better than scponly?
<sabdfl> we could do so priefly during breezy, surely?
<jbailey> mdz: But in the meantime, OOo2 needs it and the buildds cycle every 30 minutes not being able to pull in the build-deps.
<Kamion> doko's been asking to demote it temporarily to universe for a while now
<jbailey> The idea is to pull it out for now, get it all building and happy and move it back.
<Keybuk> jbailey: any particular reason it pulls them in?
<Keybuk> (in that why doesn't it just pull one?)
<elmo> jbailey: err, no they don't
<jbailey> Keybuk: Because the packages we inherit from Debian are a bit inconsistant.
<elmo> I told lamont to fail stuff that was cycling
<diamond> elmo: you can use restricted ssh keys instead of scponly for a more flexible approach
<jbailey> elmo: Ah lovely.  That's a change from when I looked before then.
<Keybuk> it's ultimately going in main anyway?
<jbailey> Right.
<Keybuk> so why not leave it there while it's fixed
<elmo> diamond: err, not really - keys won't allow you to restrict an account to only scp-ing AFAIK
<jbailey> But without also bringing in jikes, sablevm, etc.
<Kamion> diamond: restricted ssh keys are more limited
<Keybuk> it's not like breezy is otherwise unbroken right now
<mdz> diamond: and it'd also be tricky to prevent the user from scping in a new authorized_keys
<elmo> Keybuk: the buildds can't violate layers
<mdz> jbailey: if you want to disable the java stuff until it builds properly, that's fine
<Kamion> diamond: if you try to do that, you have to say "can scp only to this target"
<mdz> but I'd rather it just got fixed
<elmo> Keybuk: i.e. if main b-d's on stuff beneath main, it won't build, at all, ever
<Keybuk> elmo: main can't b-d on stuff beneath it, that's how germinate works! :p
<Keybuk> putting something in main implicitly drags in its b-ds
<Kamion> Keybuk: not entirely automatically
<jbailey> mdz: 'kay.  It'll be a couple weeks before new OOo2's will build usefully.
<mdz> Keybuk: germinate != katie
<elmo> Keybuk: heh, in germinate's mind sure.  but katie's an indepent kind of gal and has her own idea of what's in main
<diamond> elmo, Kamion, mdz: ah, right. my bad
<tseng|work> sorry was afk.
<mdz> jbailey: can't we revert to the hoary state of affairs, to get it building?
<diamond> would be nice if ssh did support it tho
<mdz> tseng|work: never mind, it turned out that it had already been dealt with
<tseng|work> ok, thanks.
<jbailey> mdz: I'll have to ping doko on that part of it, he's away and asked me to proxy the question.  I thought OOo2 was in Universe for Hoary.
<jbailey> So didn't really care what all it pulled in.
<mdz> jbailey: it was, but it was also building without the java stuff at one point, I thought
<elmo> openoffice.org2 | 1.9.79.2-0ubuntu2 |         hoary | source, i386, powerpc
<jbailey> I'll ask doko if that's possible.
<elmo> it's in main for hoary
<Kamion> diamond: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=282339 - but scp is dead, it'd have to be done in sftp
<mdz> jbailey: what's involved in fixing the actual breakage?
<diamond> Kamion: *nod*
<jbailey> mdz: Just going through and cleaning up deps/build-deps to use the prefered java apps.
<mdz> elmo: oh, goodie.  does it actually build, I wonder?
<jbailey> mdz: That was dep'ing on the C++ transition.
<mdz> jbailey: why will that take weeks?
<jbailey> mdz: Mostly because I think you want EarlyUserspace first, so I'm aiming for that this week, and Java stuff next week. =)
<elmo> mdz: should do, we did do the full rebuild thing twice
<mdz> jbailey: is there someone else capable of doing the work for oo.o2/java?
<mdz> elmo: good point
<sabdfl> i don't mind dropping oo.o2 from desktop for two weeks
<jbailey> mdz: wasabi is capable, but is busy since getting his new job.
<mdz> sabdfl: what purpose does it serve?
<jbailey> mdz: Otherwise, it's just packaging and making sure that any errors that come up get fixed if something was depending on a particular vm quirk.
<sabdfl> if it's an irritant in any way
<mdz> the only problem it's causing currently is that oo.o2 won't build from source
<mdz> jbailey: is oo.o2's breakage holding up the C++ transition or something?
<dholbach> isnt it the other way round?
<dholbach> c++ -> java -> ooo2?
<mdz> it's pretty important that we get oo.o2 into a usable state early in the breezy cycle
<mdz> we don't want to end up in the same situation we were in for Hoary
<jbailey> mdz: I don't think so.  I think it was largely driven by not irritating the buildds.
<mdz> if oo.o2 isn't blocking anything big, I'd prefer for it to stay put
<mdz> the buildds can deal
<mdz> jbailey: can you ping wasabi and see if he might be available to help us out on this?
<mdz> jbailey: (on a bounty basis)
<jbailey> mdz: Will do.
<elmo> mvo!
<elmo> (err, -ECHAN)
<mdz> ok, next agenda item was about ServerTeam
<sabdfl> THPECIAL
<mdz> I have already assigned it a priority, and also responded to infinity's direct inquiry on the subject
<sabdfl> (elmo, not the server team)
<jbailey> sabdfl: You hate us, admit it ;)_
<mdz> it wasn't a tech board matter in the first place
<sabdfl> i'm a desktop guy, what can i say
<mdz> but anyway, it's dealt with
<mdz> any other business before we adjourn?
<sabdfl> expansion of this group?
<ogra> mdz, seed serpentine to main please... ?
<mdz> sabdfl: nominees?
<ogra> mdz, thats AudioCDBurning.....
<pitti> what about our breezy goals review?
<sabdfl> send me nominations, i'll make nominations and we'll have a vote of the developers
<sabdfl> to confirm
<mdz> ogra: given that seb128 maintains it, seems like a no-brainer
<JaneW> pitti: I am just looking through them now
* ogra watches pitti mutating to JaneW  
<JaneW> hehehe
<sabdfl> one question: confirmation of TB members, would that be a vote of main-maintainers, or main-and-motu?
<ogra> mdz, yep... just wanted to state i :)
<ogra> it even
<pitti> JaneW: *blink* :-)
<JaneW> some people are being better about giving regular updates than others
<Keybuk> sabdfl: isn't it a vote of the existing TB (looking at the web page) ?
<sabdfl> Keybuk: no
<wasabi_> huh wha?
<sabdfl> it's a vote of the developers
<sabdfl> but when we decided that, we didn't have the MOTU
<sabdfl> (Oxford)
<mdz> confirming TB nominations is a weighty responsibility
<sabdfl> confirmation of CC should clearly be all members
<sabdfl> mdz: nominating them even more so :-)
<thom> mdz: wpa-supplicant is the plan, last i heard
<sabdfl> i'd like to hear from the TB and the MOTU regarding the TB confirmation vote
<JaneW> pitti: was going to give you a gold star for your updates - but I may take it back now!
<mdz> it seems logical to me that it should include MOTU
<Keybuk> to me too
<ogra> mdz++
<dholbach> yes, i think so as well
<mdz> though to date, I haven't really considered MOTU approvals in that light
<JaneW> pitti: it doesn't really help that your updates are 'can someone else do this?'
<pitti> JaneW: that was intended to be a reminder for discussing the goals here
* JaneW gives jbailey a gold star!
* jbailey does a snoopy dance!
<Keybuk> JaneW: do you have gold stars to give?
<ogra> p/me applauds jbailey 
<mdz> pitti: is there a tech board issue to decide regarding the goals?
<ajmitch> well done jbailey :)
<JaneW> Keybuk: only to those that please me
<sabdfl> ok, let's take that to the CC
<pitti> mdz: not really, it's more a request for reassign, but that can be done on the ML
<sabdfl> is that a wrap?
* JaneW tells everybody to look at jbailey's updates to his BreezyGoals
<mdz> any other business before we adjourn?
<pitti> mdz: security takes more time than expected, so I feel I should drop some assignments rather early than too late
<pitti> mdz: if we had went through the goals page here I had mentioned it, but I'll ask on -devel
<mdz> pitti: understood, please try to find candidates within the development team if you can
<mdz> ask around if anyone is interested
<\sh> well, i don
<mdz> looks like we're finished with tech board business
<mdz> right on time, too
<JaneW> \sh are you volunteering again? ;)
<mdz> meeting adjourned, thanks everyone
<JaneW> *claps*
<dholbach> thanks
<\sh> JaneW: no :)
<JaneW> thanks mdz
<sabdfl> thanks all, night
<pitti> thanks mdz
<\sh> i need something else :)
<JaneW> do you want notes sent out?
<ogra> thanks mdz 
<mvo> thanks mdz 
<dholbach> night sabdfl 
<JaneW> night sabdfl
<ogra> night sabdfl 
<\sh> one question concerning dev and testing stuff on other archs then i386 ...for those who haven't a cage full of hardware ;)
<JaneW> pitti: what's happening with MountingHDDFilesystems? There's no comment there
<pitti> JaneW: Kamion updated it
<JaneW> hmmm, we didn;t discuss cycling meeting times, while sabdfl was here...
<JaneW> ah, so he did, thanks
<Kamion> I just updated that during the meeting
<JaneW> dholbach: GraphicalPartitioningTool update?
<Kamion> been working on it today
<dholbach> JaneW: yes... wanted to talk to you about it anyway
<JaneW> ok.
<ogra> Kamion, you recognized serpentine ? could you seed it to main ?
<JaneW> Kamion: OEMRescue - any news on that yet? Still drafting?
<Kamion> ogra: I haven't been following that conversation
<Kamion> JaneW: nothing useful can happen there until OEMInstaller gets much further; I'll put a note on the page to that effect
<JaneW> Kamion: oic thanks
<ogra> Kamion, its the outcome of AudioCDBurning, mdz approved it...
<JaneW> seb128: you here?
<seb128> yeo
<seb128> yep 
<JaneW> Seb128: could you update your BreezyGolas please?  LaunchpadIntegration , and then there's a few specs required for Bounties etc...
<seb128> that's planned for tomorrow
<JaneW> seb128: ok thanks
<Kamion> ogra: ok, done
<ogra> Kamion, thanks :)
* ogra updates BreezyGoals to make JaneW happy :)
<Kamion> ogra: you need to get your account sorted out so that you can commit to the seeds when stuff's approved for you :)
<Simira> JaneW
<ogra> Kamion, it waits for elmo.... as may maildresses do
<Kamion> ah, ok
<ogra> my even
<elmo> err, since today, for the record
* JaneW is HAPPY oh so happy
<dholbach> :)
<pitti> ogra: just tried to update, too, but you still have the lock :-/
<ogra> pitti, grab it :)
<ogra> pitti, the prob is that cursor keys crash ff for me, so i have to do the moving in the input field by mouse.... slows down a lot :)
<Mithrandir> is there a good reason why the seeds aren't cachereved?  Apart from "nobody has done it"?
<pitti> ogra: oh, use mozilla, that works fine
<ogra> pitti, hmm...
<dholbach> good night
<ajmitch> night dholbach 
<dholbach> bye andrew
* JaneW refrains from editing BreezyGoals page... 
<surak> night dholbach
<JaneW> sigh
<ajmitch> ogra: well done on the green bit ;)
<JaneW> night
<ogra> night JaneW 
<pitti> night JaneW, sleep well
<surak> night JaneW
<\sh> g'night JaneW 
<pitti> JaneW: now we update all of our goals, and you complain again? :-)
<JaneW> no I am still here, was saying night to dholbach
<JaneW> I am still whipping you guys! ;)
<ajmitch> uh oh
<ogra> JaneW, whipping _me_ ? 
* Mithrandir tickles JaneW 
<\sh> ogra: u like it? *shiver*
* ogra woners how many completed goals a day he needs not to be whipped by JaneW 
<JaneW> ogra; you are safe (for now) relax
<JaneW> Mithrandir, on the other hand...
<ogra> hehe
<conformistINred> haha, everyone was like, good night JaneW...tsk tsk...
<\sh> does anybody has a server with breezy running?
<ogra> \sh, who would be _this_ crazy ?
<\sh> ogra: well, I want to get rid of SER ;) and I need a test enviroment, where someone can connect to it, and try voip in a real env.
<\sh> and my server is full :(
<rb> Hi Kamion - I am richard braine, a cruel irony. Mark suggested i speak to you about my ppc install problem.
<JaneW> Mithrandir: FasterNetworkedX? update please?
<JaneW> rb: that really your surname?
<Mithrandir> JaneW: tomorrow, please?  (And if you could drop me a mail, I'd be immensely happy)
<JaneW> Mithrandir: oh alright! But just for you ;)
<rb> i don't need your pity
<rb> too
<Mithrandir> JaneW: great, thanks.
<JaneW> rb: heheh ok so you have obviously heard the obvious joke...
* JaneW refrains from being ultra lame then
<rb> you've got 5 seconds to laugh
<JaneW> bwhahahahhaa!
<surak> that was quick
<JaneW> ok I'm done
<dholbach> haha... hearing jane laughing like that is LOVELY :)
<rb> for me the fun of it is that the joke goes on, year after year
* \sh just thought about the first meeting with jane on irc ;)
<JaneW> rb: I sympathise
<JaneW> I have the whole Tarzan and Jane thing...
<\sh> JaneWonda is new?
<rb> that's ok as long as you like being dragged by your hair
<rb> so Kamion, are you here?
* \sh needs really holiday...
<conformistINred> rb, serious, what ppl tease you cause your last name is braine, and you actually care, and are older than 16?
<conformistINred> non, i didnt get that...I guess you dont care...
<rb> i don't care
<conformistINred> right, I figured in a second...
<conformistINred> thanks.
<conformistINred> as they say, if it seeems to strange to be true...it likely isnt...
<conformistINred> I think I should leave, I cant seem, top resist makibng stupid comments...
* venda passes JaneW Coffee and Rusks
<JaneW> Mithrandir: e-mail sent (I know you have study pressure, so don;t stress too much, when you can update it will be great)
<JaneW> venda: yay thanks :)
<venda> cold up here
<JaneW> in venda? ;)
* \sh is playing "Contradanza" by Vanessa Mae on The Best Of Vanessa Mae
<rb> Kamion - if you come back, you can get me at http://braine.com
<venda> JaneW: what's with SouthAfricanTeam is there some life in the bush
<rb> see ya guys and gals.
<JaneW> by rb
<JaneW> bye even
<JaneW> next time I won't rb in how funny his name is
<JaneW> *cough* Dick Braine *cough*
<surak> night
<JaneW> ogra: question, AudioCDBurning is it 100% done, or is there still further testing etc to do?
<ogra> JaneW, Completed - Dev work done - still to be tested.
<ogra> thats what the wiki says....
<JaneW> ogra: because once it;s all tested and working properly and as finished as it;s going to be in the release it can move to implemented
<ajmitch> pitti: selinux packages are really in the selinux goal below, not proactivesecurity, right?
<JaneW> ogra: ok, that's perfect
<ogra> waiting for user tests and bug reports
<JaneW> some people were confussed
<pitti> ajmitch: well, the specs overlap somehow, but right
<JaneW> ogra: ok that was the exact intention of the different greens
<venda> night
<pitti> ajmitch: btw, any news wrt the pam breakage? it seems to be the only major problem
<ogra> its not tested or implemented yet....err... its prtially tested... so it could be a bit brighter :)
<pitti> ajmitch: all other packages work fine for me, they should be uploaded asap
<ajmitch> pitti: not yet, I can fix it by porting the @include syntax forward to 0.78/.79, but I think it's ugly
<\sh> I have bad luck
<\sh> now i'm getting only the "unwilling to compile just like this" packages
<Kamion> damn, missed rb
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-08
<JaneW> ok time for bed
<JaneW> night all <- this time it is ME saying good night
<ogra> night JaneW 
<terrex> when the meeting will start?
<Mithrandir> there's a kernel meeting at 1600UTC and a backports meeting at 1930UTC today.
<terrex> thx
<Nafallo> thanx fabbione 
<fabbione> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2005-May/000527.html
<fabbione> this is the agenda for today :)
<Kamion> I'll be around sort of if you need me for installer stuff, but you'll need to get my attention by saying my nick
<fabbione> Kamion: ok thanks :)
<zul> blah
<toresbe> that's not me, btw :P
<tore_> toresbe: =] 
<zul> i just won a poker tournament yeah!
<zul> anyways
<fabbione> just to refresh your mind:
<fabbione> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2005-May/000527.html
<fabbione> ^^agenda
<fabbione> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LinuxKernelRoadmap
<fabbione> and roadmap
<zul> less than a hour? that is goign to be a record
<fabbione> well i hope it can be less than one hour :)
<zul> it will
<ogra> guys, we need this room at 19:00 UTC again for backporting things.... so speed up ;)
<fabbione> ogra: i read it was at 19:30 but ok :)
<fabbione> ok it's 16:00 UTC now
<Lathiat> what time is it now?
<fabbione> let's start
<Nafallo> ogra: thanx. I just wondered when it was ;-)
<fabbione> welcome everybody
<ogra> err, yes... but we need to clean up your mess before ;)
<fabbione> today we will review the status of the spec implementation
<zul> shhhush 
<fabbione> and we will assign the last few remaining tasks to people
<fabbione> most of the stuff has been happily done
<fabbione> as a side note, the release for 2.6.12 final seems to be delayed upstream
<infinity> Not delayed long enough to be an issue, though.
<zul> surprise surprise
<fabbione> so the first 4 points might slow down a bit
<jbailey> What's the spec clalled so we all have the same one up?
<fabbione> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/LinuxKernelRoadmap
<jbailey> tx
<fabbione> so let's go point by point
<fabbione> infinity: right
<fabbione> we are already building 2.6.12rcX with gcc-3.4 and so far we have received no complains about regressions
<fabbione> and that's good
<fabbione> gcc-4.0 is still known to miscompile the kernel
<fabbione> point 2 is dependent on upstream
<fabbione> same goes for 3 and 4
<fabbione> work that can be done in parallel:
<infinity> Do e have any idea where gcc-4.0 is miscompiling the kernel?
<Lathiat> Is it likely to get that fixed before shipping ?
<fabbione> infinity: afaik there are bugs open upstream with specific details
<fabbione> Lathiat: we don't know
<Lathiat> Because that raises issues compiling out of tree drivers, etc
<fabbione> that depends a lot
<fabbione> Lathiat: external drivers will have to be compiled with the proper gcc. if they use the kbuild system they will be fine
<infinity> Lathiat : Out of tree modules should be able to set kgcc to something sane.
<fabbione> otherwise they are on their own
<fabbione> the problems with gcc-4.0 are:
<zul> Lathiat: most of the external drivers that we use have been switched to kbuild
<fabbione> 1) gcc-4.0 doesn't compile the kernel
<Lathiat> hrm vmware musnt use kbuild ?
<fabbione> 2) some kernel code is not gcc-4.0 compliant
<zul> we dont use vmware :)
<Lathiat> anyway
<fabbione> anyway
<fabbione> chmj: can you plese give us a status update on thirdy part drivers tracking tool?
<chmj> its finished 
<fabbione> chmj: ok.. we need to get the code :)
<chmj> just need to document it and then you can test it 
<fabbione> chmj: ok
<fabbione> great
<fabbione> HIGHMEM on 386 has been enabled, but i gues we will see the first reports only after we will make 2.6.12 the default
<fabbione> did anybody in here tested it?
<chmj> what can we do about the gcc-4.0 kernel problem though ?
<infinity> I've used it on my own machines without issues, but I haven't tested your current images.
<fabbione> chmj: not much right now
<dilinger> chmj: test it and submit fixes upstream?
<fabbione> infinity: ok
<fabbione> the next 3 points are benchmarking related
<fabbione> and we didn't start on them yet
<fabbione> i don't have enough resources to even start it
<infinity> Does anyone have any sane benchmark suites?
<fabbione> who would like to take the tasks?
<zul> bonnie++ is one
<infinity> I will happily test SMP vs UP vs optimised vs generic on my amd64 til the cows come home, if I have some benchmarks to run.
<zul> i dont have the gear for smp
<chmj> I don't have the resources 
<dilinger> whoever does take on the task should make the process public, so other people can reproduce the benchmark results
<fabbione> who could test ppc?
<fabbione> infinity: i assume you can test i386 on amd64
* toresbe volunteers his AMD64 box :P
<infinity> More importantly, though, what do we consider an acceptable performance loss to switch to generic-SMP on all installations?
<jbailey> chmj: PRobably at a minimum, find the bugs in gcc's bugzilla and list them on the page.  Then they can be tracked.
<infinity> 5%? 10%?
<jbailey> fabbione: I can test ppc g4/g5.
<toresbe> I can test m68k! oh wait... :P
<fabbione> infinity: between 5 and 10% is ok with me
<infinity> fabbione : I can test an i386 and amd64 root, but obviously the kernel will always be amd64.
<chmj> jbailey: ok 
<fabbione> note that Herbert Xu reported that the worst bottle neck is networking related
<fabbione> using SMP kernels on UP machines
<infinity> In what sense?... When the network is saturated?
<fabbione> with very high load on the cpu and very high load on the network card (~1Gb)
<infinity> I could see locking issues coming into play only when you're saturating I/O.
<dilinger> probably related to softirq locking, would be my guess
<infinity> Yeah.  Do we even care about such a use case?
<fabbione> infinity: that's what he was talking about
<fabbione> infinity: for server, we do
<infinity> People who need to push that kind of bandwidth will almost never use default kernels.
<fabbione> infinity: unfortunatly we cannot assume
<infinity> (And people who push that kind of bandwidth also often have SMP machines, so the point becomes moots)
<infinity> s/moots/moot/
<fabbione> but i agree
<fabbione> so does everybody agree in a possible loss of perf between 5 and 10%?
<fabbione> or should we put it down?
<fabbione> between 3 and 7?
<toresbe> that's quite a lot, isn't it?
<infinity> I could go as high at 10, but I'd be happier with 5.
<dilinger> %5 is fine
<zul> well if its too high then users are going to complain
<infinity> I think we should shoot for 5 as a baseline.
<chmj> 5% is fine 
<toresbe> I mean, if people are using SMP machines, which atm is quite rare...
<fabbione> ok let's average...
<infinity> And see how bad our results are. :)
<fabbione> no more than 6% :)
<fabbione> clearly the lower the better :)
<fabbione> so we have jbailey on ppc and infinity for i386/amd64.
<chmj> no more than 6 is acceptable
<infinity> Someone needs to be tasked with coming up with some comprehensive benchmarks.
<fabbione> infinity, jbailey: i would like you 2 to update the wiki with an ETA for test results
<jbailey> fabbione: ppc newworld g4/g5 only, though.  If you want oldworld support or g3 support, I don't have the equipment.
<toresbe> what sort of thing should one test?
<fabbione> jbailey: one ppc serie is acceptable
<jbailey> fabbione: Standard linux test suite is fine?
<toresbe> forks? malloc? memcpy...?
<infinity> If it's going to involve network I/O and CPU, something like ab running against boa might work, over a crossover GigE.
<fabbione> toresbe: the more the best
<fabbione> toresbe: do you want to take care to find a benchmarking tool?
<fabbione> zul: ?
<jbailey> infinity: Something we should put together for FormalTestPlans?
<fabbione> that needs to be done by yesterday
<zul> fabbione: i would suggest bonnie or ltp
<infinity> jbailey : FormalTestPlans seems to be all-encompassing, doesn't it?
<toresbe> fabbione: I, uhm, I could try...
<jbailey> infinity: I did mention that.
<zul> http://ltp.sourceforge.net/
<fabbione> toresbe: you don't need to write it.. just find one out there
<toresbe> yeah
<jbailey> I wonder how much elmo would hurt us if the kernel build fired up Xen and started an ltp pass?
* toresbe looks on teh nitarweb
<fabbione> anyway.. add what you find at the end of the wiki
<infinity> jbailey : I would hurt you.
<toresbe> fabbione: me?
<fabbione> toresbe: you and zul
<fabbione> ok next item
<toresbe> okies
<zul> okies then
<toresbe> ltp seems fairly spot-on, though
<fabbione> are we aware of any way to detect SMP machines booting a UP kernel?
<jbailey> fabbione: Depends on the arch, iirc.
<fabbione> this is needed if enabling SMP kernels on UP machines is too expensive
<infinity> Not reliably, IIRC.
<infinity> Why is it needed?
<infinity> Can the installer not run an SMP kernel unconditionally, and drop to installing a UP kernel if the system is UP.
<zul> so we dont have a zillion configs for builidng the kernel
<infinity> (much easier to detect UP from SMP than the other way around)
<fabbione> infinity: because if installing a SMP kernel on UP machine is too expensive performance wise, we can ask d-i to install the proper kernel
<infinity> fabbione : Yes, but d-i can run an SMP kernel.
<fabbione> infinity: while i agree, it is somehow known that SMP kernels don't always boot UP hardware
<toresbe> yeah, I've noticed that.
<infinity> fabbione : It's much easier to detect a single CPU on an SMP kernel than the other way around.
<toresbe> but it's quite rare.
<infinity> fabbione : Is this still a concern, or are we operating on 5 year old assumptions?
<fabbione> infinity: we can't risk breezy not even being installable because of an SMP kernel on the wrong UP hardware
<fabbione> infinity: it's true on sparc at least... and that's now
<infinity> Right, but Sparc isn't a release arch. ;)
<jbailey> Nor is hppa (the other arch I know of that can reliably detect offline CPUs)
<fabbione> infinity: yes but it's the same code that runs on other arches.. you know
<infinity> fabbione : Not really, no.
<fabbione> damn you got me :)
<infinity> fabbione : The bits that just plain won't boot are drastically different between arches.
<fabbione> i was trying to be vague ;)
<infinity> CPU setup is very arch-dependent, obviously.
<infinity> And I'd be very surprised if the SMP-on-UP problem still exists on our 3 release arches.
<fabbione> infinity: there are other problems too
<fabbione> not all drivers are compiled for SMP kernels, because they are not SMP friendly
<infinity> Well, fair enough.  We can examing the CPU detection thing and see where it takes us.
<fabbione> or they compile and don't work
<fabbione> so we might kill the installation just a bit further
<infinity> But if we're looking at SMP default kernels anyway (assuming the performance hit isn't teh suck), we need to tackle any other problems SMP may bring us, like crap drivers.
<infinity> Otherwise, it's a pipe dream, and we can scrap the benchmarking.
<fabbione> infinity: yes, but this doesn't assume we need to kill d-i for it :)
<fabbione> at least not in the beginning
<fabbione> but yes...
<toresbe> ok
<toresbe> how about in the installer, it asks if you want to use more than one processor?
<fabbione> next point
<fabbione> toresbe: and what would that solve?
<infinity> toresbe : Questions in d-i will get Kamion and mdz smacking you.
<infinity> Certainly not ones like that.
<fabbione> even a boot option is not an option :)
<fabbione> given that the code is still compiled in the kernel
<toresbe> the installer could use a UP kernel, and could also very reliably detect it ;)
<infinity> Anyhow, put me down for CPU number detection on amd64 and i386.  Can't do PPC until my Mac flies in here in a month.
<fabbione> infinity: ok. i am not writing down who is going to do what ...
<fabbione> i expect you guys to remember :)
<infinity> fabbione : You're the lead, you should. :)
<fabbione> infinity: i can remember without writing :)
<fabbione> so you are still doomed ;)
<infinity> jbailey : Unless you want to play secretary.
<fabbione> next 2 steps are pretty related to each other
<infinity> Yeah, but I suck at reembering things.  It's nice to go back to the spec and remember who to bug about what (or what I said I'd do and didn't)
<fabbione> we should have done this a long long time ago
<fabbione> infinity: you can just add yourself to it ;)
<fabbione> anyway
<fabbione> let's keep going
<infinity> Carry on.
<fabbione>  generate non-supported-linux-kernel-modules.
<jbailey> infinity: For this meeting?  I guess I could, but since it's already written in text form, I'd rather not.
<fabbione> now we have a problem
<infinity> jbailey : Alright, I'll grab the log later. :)
<fabbione> we include a lot of external drivers that are just a pile of junk code
<fabbione> but users want it
<fabbione> and we all know the drill
<fabbione> so the idea was to create the above package
<fabbione> that will contain all the modules that:
<fabbione> 1) are not part of upstream kernel
<fabbione> 2) we don't support directly
<fabbione> 3) they are not required for installation (like webcam drivers)
<infinity> 3) can compile cleanly out-of-tree?
<fabbione> 4) as infinity 3)
<fabbione> 5) we will drop as soon as they stop compiling
<fabbione> for whatever reason
<zul> or no longer supported upstream
<fabbione> zul: right
<infinity> Is this actually a long list?
<fabbione> now.. we still want this package coming from the main kernel
<chmj> I'm also wonderign how long it is 
<fabbione> infinity: quite
<fabbione> and we still want it shipped with the CD
<zul> infinity: read the external-drivers file in the debian dir
<fabbione> but clearly we don't want to support it
<fabbione> hence the fancy name
<fabbione> who would like to take this task?
<fabbione> the task is to prepare a list of such drivers
<fabbione> for all the arches
<fabbione> by flavour
<zul> i guess i can i have the experience with the drivers
<fabbione> it needs to be detailed
<fabbione> zul: ok.. it's your
<zul> or maybe a couple of people can help
<chmj> zul: I can help 
<fabbione> zul: we will work on it together
<zul> ok good
<fabbione> since we need some changes to the build system too
<fabbione> chmj: welcome to help :)
<fabbione> chmj: would you like to help zul with the list and start to strech your wings on the build system?
<chmj> yes 
<fabbione> perfect
<fabbione> next point
<fabbione>  create policy for 3rd party driver inclusion policy.
<chmj> maybe we can also enhance the watch program 
<fabbione> this is mainly documentation/wiki stuff
<fabbione> to reflect what are the criteria of 3rd party drivers
<jbailey> chmj: I'd like to work with you a bit on build system stuff to see if cdbs2 can be bent to do what you want simply.
<fabbione> mainly is what we wrote above already
<chmj> jbailey: ok 
<fabbione> and 3rd party patches must not touch any kernel core functionality or feature
<fabbione> who would like to spend a few minutes doing it?
<zul> fabbione: uh so like kdb?
<fabbione> zul: debugging is a bit different and we can apply patches per flavour
<zul> ah ok
<zul> just had me worried for a minute
<fabbione> i don't consider that a 3rd party drivers that to gain 1 ms in 8000 hours processing will patch 9000 lines of code
<fabbione> so anybody wants to write this stuff down?
<fabbione> it's just copy/paste from this discussion basically ;)
<fabbione> i will offer a beer at the next conf? ;)
<infinity> I'm grabbing the log anyway, so I'll do it.
<jbailey> 12:26 <infinity> jbailey : Alright, I'll grab the log later. :)
<fabbione> infinity: you win a beer :)
<fabbione> ehhe
<infinity> Yay, beer!
<fabbione> next point
<fabbione>  3rd party drivers will be maintained as patches.
<fabbione> this was just a decision
<fabbione> nothing fancy
<fabbione> it has always been there
<fabbione> next one:
<fabbione>  Provide a psuedo/virtual package named 'linux' that depends on a generic
<fabbione> this has been done where possible
<fabbione> that means i386/amd64/ia64
<fabbione> and sparc
<fabbione> ppc and hppa have too many specific needs
<fabbione> next one
<fabbione>  Include ABINAME in kernel version string, to remove ambiguities from bug reports.
<zul> is anyone besides fabbione actually looking at ppc?
<zul> just had to ask
<fabbione> zul: i guess nobody...
<zul> ok then
<fabbione> and the funny thing is that i don't even have one to test on
<chmj> lack of hardware
<zul> i could care less about ppc imho
<infinity> PPC and I will spend some quality time when my Mac comes home to me.
<infinity> Which is at the end of June.
<fabbione> infinity: ok :)
<jbailey> zul: What's needed?  I don't have a lot of time, but my main two boxes are PPC.
<chmj> fabbione: you don't? 
<fabbione> jbailey: it needs porting love :)
<fabbione> chmj: no
<fabbione> since it breaks every time
<jbailey> The boxes I have are probably not the ones that need alot of love.
<zul> jbailey: im not exactly sure it just needs someone to hold it and pet it and love and call him george
<fabbione> anyway ppc is fluxating a lot now
<fabbione> let's keep going guys....
<fabbione> we will talk about ppc later
<fabbione>  Include ABINAME in kernel version string, to remove ambiguities from bug reports.
<fabbione> this has been done
<fabbione> with the extra huglification of the version
<fabbione>  Defer enhancing ABI check for now; improvements to this can come over
<fabbione> as it says.. we have deffered it..
<fabbione> the original system invented by mdz and improved by dilinger and lamont seems to meet our needs fine for now
<fabbione>  Add a -dbg kernel image for all architectures that have a generic kernel
<fabbione> zul: ^^
<fabbione> status update?
<zul> 686-dbg 386-dbg done...i have to enable kdb in the kernel rest will be working once 1.3 is branced
<zul> and the ramdisk_size issue 
<fabbione> rocking.. infinity, jbailey i will need you to test the -dbg packages on amd64/ppc
<fabbione> but that's in about a couple of kernel releases
<jbailey> fabbione: Will we get reminders at the time? =)
<fabbione> zul: we might want to get that one fixed before
<zul> fabbione: if i knew how to fix it i would
<fabbione> jbailey: do i ever forget who are my bitches^W^Wyou? ;)
<jbailey> fabbione: Not so far, dear. =)
<fabbione> zul: ok we will work on it together than
* chmj shivers 
<fabbione> let's skip Debian/Ubuntu pkg unification for now
<fabbione> we will take it later
<fabbione>  Add infrastructure to autobuild git/bk snapshots from upstream.
<infinity> But dilinger showed up just for that, I suspect. :)
<fabbione> deferred for now....
<fabbione> infinity: right in 10 minutes :)
<fabbione> just that we finish the other simple points in the specs
<fabbione> if somebody is interested in creating git/cogito autobuild snapshot can speak now.. or we will recruit for breezy+1
<zul> oh that would be fun..not that im volunteering
<infinity> I would, but my plate's too full this cycle, I suspect.
<infinity> It's something I cal look at when bored, though.
<infinity> s/cal/can/
<chmj> I still need to spead my wing on the build system 
<fabbione> chmj, infinity: it's not a high priority thing
<jbailey> fabbione: Is that something best left to the GrumpyGroundhog timeframe?
<fabbione> so if you feel bored or waiting for firefox to compile...
<infinity> jbailey : GrumpyGroundhog will pretty much buy us this for free, but we're not sure when Grumpy will happen.
<fabbione> jbailey: the motivations behind kernel crack of the day are several
<jbailey> Right.  But do we want to encourage folks to try for CrackOfTheDay before that?  It seems better to not pretend that we might even support such a notion.
<fabbione> like testing upstream fixes
<infinity> fabbione : I'd leave it deferred for now anyway.  I don't have time for it right now, and I doubt anyone else wants to look at it.
<fabbione> infinity: i am not promoting it :)
<zul> jbailey: suse/novell has a kotd 
<fabbione> but if somebody volunteers....
<fabbione> jbailey: COTD won't be in the archive.. only somewhere available
<chmj> fabbione, can still be touched on spare time, I guess 
<dilinger> i could do some git stuff
<fabbione> chmj: sure.. that works for me
<chmj> sweet 
<dilinger> but people at work are making me deal w/ a failed drive right now
<fabbione> dilinger: wait .. i would really love you to do something else ;)
<fabbione>  Add a hook to kernel image's postinst to call out to module-assistant.'
<fabbione> i think we should defer this one to breezy+1
<chmj> why ?
<jbailey> IS that where my mkinitramfs hook goes? =)
<infinity> Is the end goal there to never have to provide any binary packages matching module-source packages?
<fabbione> chmj: because we can't ship it in the default install CD
<infinity> If so, I'm all for it.  Keeping those in sync is stupidly painful.
<fabbione> infinity: the goal was to have a common framework, where the user stick his external module source
<fabbione> that get rebuilded automatically at postinst if there is an ABI change
<fabbione> but that's quite complicated 
<infinity> Ahh, so not for sources we ship?
<fabbione> and there are several points of failre
<infinity> Just for random downloaded crap.
<fabbione> infinity: whatever that is source 
<infinity> That sounds harder than it initially did.
<chmj> heh, yes 
<fabbione> we still have the issue that even if it is source that we ship, it might build on the kernel you are going to install
<fabbione> + you need the framework to depends on gcc-*
<fabbione> + you don't know if the crap that it's in there needs to be built with a specific order
<fabbione> so i think we should rediscuss it a bit
<infinity> Fair enough.  It sounds cracktastic.
<fabbione> well it is....
<fabbione> i think dilinger and I were discussing it at 5am :)
<fabbione> or something like that
<fabbione> any other comment on this?
<fabbione> 3
<fabbione> 2
<fabbione> 1
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione>  Notification applet.
<fabbione> that's done
<infinity> \o/
<fabbione> basically if you have event notifier installed
<fabbione> every time you upgrade your kernel you get told to reboot..
<fabbione> F4nCy
<chmj> sweet 
<fabbione> so let's go back to the Debian/Ubuntu thing
<fabbione> #
<fabbione> Unify Debian and Ubuntu kernel packaging. Drop dpatch, and add centralized
<fabbione>     *
<fabbione>       config file generation/management. (possibly use cdbs2) (low priority: decision beeds to be taken within 2 months)
<infinity> dilinger : You can stop working on hard drives now.
<fabbione> dilinger: what is the situation and feelings in debian about this merge?
<fabbione> i know that quite a bunch of guys would be happy about it
<infinity> It can't be timed more appropriately, given Sarge's impending release and Etch opening up within a week.
<fabbione> and i remember we agreed on you and horms to prepare somekind of draft...
<infinity> So, now is the ideal time to shove unification down everyone's throats.
<fabbione> infinity: let me tell you a secret.. i knew when sarge was going to be released :)
<fabbione> dilinger: ??
<infinity> I think dilinger got stuck dealing with that failed drive at work. :/
<fabbione> ok
<infinity> (See, you shouldn't have left this point til last)
<fabbione> let's suspend it for a while
<fabbione> and hope he can come back
<fabbione> we forgot 2 important things from the specs
<fabbione> PPC64 and CONFIG_ handling (the latter also part of the debian integration)
<fabbione> Kamion: i think it would be nice if you can stay here with us a few minutes?
<Kamion> sure
<fabbione> PPC64 :)
<fabbione> finally we have a working toolchain
<Amaranth> how come the backports meeting isn't in the topic?
<fabbione> that can build the kernel (or we believe so)
<fabbione> Amaranth: we are in another meeting. kthxbye
<dilinger> back
<Lathiat> fabbione: 'kthxbai'
<Amaranth> yeah, get it right :)
<jbailey> meow
<Amaranth> i'll watch this one
<fabbione> we agreed after some discussion for the naming of the new ppc64 flavours :)
<dilinger> fabbione: i don't think anyone has problems w/ a merge
<fabbione> powerpc, powerpc-smp -> 32Bit
<dilinger> fabbione: trave11er's reworking the debian packaging to build from a single source
<fabbione> dilinger: ok.. we will take it up in a few minutes if that's ok
<dilinger> apparently he wasn't aware of ubuntu's work to do that
<dilinger> ok
<fabbione> pseries-smp, iseries-smp -> ppc64
<fabbione> the power3 and power4 flavours will die
<fabbione> replaced by pseries and iseries
<fabbione> given that we don't have any experience i would suggest a few releases transition plan
<fabbione> that will mean overbloating ppc images with what we have now
<Kamion> I still really hate the pseries name for that
<fabbione> + the ppc64
<infinity> fabbione : And what does one install on their G5?  (Yes, I know it's the pseries one, but no one else will know that)
<Kamion> infinity: my feeling exactly
<fabbione> ok...
<fabbione> any better suggestions are welcome until they retain the -smp at the end
<fabbione> since there will be no UP for them
<infinity> powerpc64-smp, iseries-smp
<fabbione> (according to benh it's perfectly safe)
<infinity> Since iseries is the odd man out.
<fabbione> Kamion: are you happy with that?
<Kamion> yeah, iseries is unusual powerpc64, in the same way as powerpc isn't everything that's "PowerPC" but it's the most generic kind
<Kamion> well, most common
<Kamion> fabbione: yes
<fabbione> Kamion: ok.
<Kamion> not bothered about whether -smp is there or not
<infinity> And so much for that bikeshed.
<fabbione> now the point is to get people to test these kernels and d-i before we kill the old flavours
<fabbione> Kamion: i am a bit fuzzy in having it for the sake of consistency with the other arches
<jbailey> What testing is needed?  powerpc should just work on all the 32 bit ones, no?  And the 64 bit ones are new.
<fabbione> jbailey: that's why we need a ppc person in the team ;)
<fabbione> jbailey: we need somebody to see if the kernel actually works before we force it to the users
<infinity> fabbione : My Mac will be handy here, as it's an OldWorld, and thus far more likely to not work right. :)
<infinity> fabbione : Again, that's "end of month" timeframe.
<fabbione> perfect
<fabbione> Kamion: what do you want me to do in terms of udebs?
<fabbione> Kamion: should i give you udebs for 64bits or should we wait?
<Kamion> fabbione: yes please, same udebs as are currently there for power3/power4
<Kamion> fabbione: so just let it use modules/powerpc/ and it should be fine
<fabbione> Kamion: ok.. i will generate udebs for you
<fabbione> and you will decide what you want to include in d-i for testing
<fabbione> i have no problems with that :)
<fabbione> Kamion: thanks
<Kamion> ok, no problem
<fabbione> any other comment on PPc64?
<Kamion> I imagine I'll just s/power4/powerpc64/g
<infinity> Yes, send me one.
<fabbione> (btw i will take this tasks since i think i am one of the few with access to the porting box)
<fabbione> infinity: if i had one....
<jbailey> Migration path for people with current kernels?
<infinity> which box is that?
<fabbione> jbailey: we will use linux-meta for that
<fabbione> infinity: davis
<infinity> fabbione : I have access.
<fabbione> infinity: want to take the tasks?
<infinity> Not really. :)
<fabbione> infinity: so shut up next time :P
<infinity> <grin>
<fabbione> heeh
<zul> send me one and ill do it ;)
<titus`> hi
<fabbione> jbailey: i think it will be safe at a certain point for the 64bit kernels to provide the old 32 power3/4
<fabbione> but we will see when we will have the images in place....
<fabbione> does it sound reasonable to everybody?
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> let's go back to Debian
<fabbione> dilinger: are you still around?
<chmj> dilinger, ? 
<zul> diiiiiiiiilinnnnnnnnnnger
* fabbione sighs
<zul> sorry
<fabbione> ok i guess dilinger is floating around a bit
<infinity> Looks like his job kidnapped him.
<fabbione> i think other than the Debian merge we have done with the specs...
<infinity> Anything else on your agenda?
<fabbione> infinity: yes
<fabbione> just one second..
<fabbione> ah sorry.. i had a cramp on my right hand
<fabbione> the last item in agenda is 2.6.12 in main
<fabbione> how do you guys feel with the current images?
<fabbione> right now we are not respecting ABI changes
<fabbione> to keep the package "simpler"
<zul> except with some random crashing im fine with it
<jbailey> stable for me on i386 and ppc so far.
<Mithrandir> fabbione: they blow up on my AMD64 due to acx
<fabbione> i am fine here too...
<fabbione> Mithrandir: did the old version work?
<Amaranth> fine here in i386
<Amaranth> on
<fabbione> Mithrandir: if so can you try to do some debugging?
<zul> Mithrandir: im getting random crashes as well with ati
<chmj> i386 work for me 
<fabbione> anyway acx is an external driver and Mithrandir is supposed to be the amd64 porter :)
<Mithrandir> fabbione: 2.6.10-5-amd64-k8 works fine, 2.6.12 blows up.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: you lose :)
<Mithrandir> fabbione: I can do some debugging if you give me kernels I can debug usefully. :-P
<fabbione> ok.. i guess i will than upload 1.2 with the -dbg merges from zul
<zul> there isnt one for amd64 yet
<fabbione> Mithrandir: acx is easy to debug.. i will tell you tomorrow how
<fabbione> and we will ask to move the kernel in main
<Mithrandir> fabbione: if you say so.
<fabbione> that means start supporting it
<fabbione> including ABI changes
<zul> heh we werent? :)
<fabbione> zul: nope.. :)
<fabbione> we cheated
<zul> oh...
<fabbione> oh i shouldn't have said that
* fabbione goes and edits the logs
<fabbione> :P
<fabbione> ok
<infinity> Too late.
<fabbione> so general consensum is to have it in main
<infinity> Better now than never, really.
<infinity> The bugs will get worked out faster if more people install them and complain.
<fabbione> infinity: i tend to agree if some arches like ppc didn't tend to selfdestruct each minor upstream release
<zul> yah...fun fun
<fabbione> but yeah
<fabbione> it's time to move it to main
<fabbione> it will be a bit more painful in the beginning but ok
<chmj> zul: heh 
<infinity> Pain is character-building.
<chmj> fabbione: painfull is putting it mildly
<fabbione> when do we want to switch 2.6.12 as default kernel?
<zul> tomorrow hah!...edit that out as well :)
<fabbione> 2 weeks after it will hit main?
<infinity> Depends on how many bug reports we get. :)
<zul> uh...wait..linux-restricted-modules
<fabbione> zul: easy dude... it's an rc release
<infinity> If it seems reasonably stable 2 weeks after it goes in, promote it.
<fabbione> it might eat your machine and you still don't know
<fabbione> infinity: agreed
<chmj> fabbione: depends on the bugs Ithink 
<fabbione> zul: daniels is already working on them
<fabbione> chmj: bugs or non bugs we need a deadline
<fabbione> there will be always bugs
<zul> fabbione: ok 
<zul> yeah it is the kernel
<fabbione> there is no way to get a 0 bugs kernel
<fabbione> people can make bugs out of hello.c
<fabbione> so..
<fabbione> dilinger: are you back?
<chmj> like infinity, has to be reseanably stable
<chmj> +said 
<jbailey> *g*
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> last item in the agenda
<fabbione> that was for dilinger
<fabbione> we need to do some CONFIG_ rework
<fabbione> i know dilinger and zul started on it already
<dilinger> yea
<dilinger> i'm here
<dilinger> this is a horrible time for a meeting, btw :)
<fabbione> it's goal is to try to get CONFIG_ options across arches/flavours are coherent as possible
<infinity> Dude, it's 3:23am where I am, don't complain.
<dilinger> the CONFIG stuff ties in w/ the package unification stuff we're doing w/ debian
<fabbione> dilinger: ok.. so if you don't mind to give us a short status update again
<dilinger> i hadn't bothered to finish it due to the fact that i couldn't use it
<fabbione> dilinger: why not?
<dilinger> because there is no common package yet
<dilinger> so getting back to what i was saying
<dilinger> trave11er's started working on a single source package
<dilinger> he wasn't aware ubuntu already did it
<dilinger> he also wasn't aware that we wanted to use cdbs2
<fabbione> ehehhe
<dilinger> we made him aware, and he started pulling in changes; but he hasn't started using cdbs2
<dilinger> i haven't looked at his stuff yet (been busy moving), but i plan to within the next week or two
<fabbione> i did look at his tree and it seems interesting
<dilinger> ubuntu and debian requirements should be about the same
<fabbione> dilinger: other than the udebs yes
<dilinger> debian has some additional requirements; i don't believe there's anything that ubuntu needs that debian doesn't, other than udebs
<fabbione> we have the same pkging requirements atm
<dilinger> so, merging just makes sense
<fabbione> dilinger: the only problem is to move debian away from svn
* fabbione hides
<dilinger> i'll look at trave11er's stuff, convert to cdbs2 if it lends itself well to it, and made it so that it works for both debian and ubuntu
<fabbione> to a more sane SCM to handle branches
<dilinger> fabbione: i'm hesitant to do such a thing until lifeless fixes baz bugs that are keeping me from actually getting stuff done
<fabbione> dilinger: point taken
<infinity> SVN works fine.  Leave the poor thing alone.
<dilinger> it's looking like we might just skip right to bzr or git in a few months
<dilinger> whichever actually matures
<fabbione> bzr sounds fine to me :)
<fabbione> what do we want to do in the meanwhile?
<dilinger> part of making the single source packaging work for both ubuntu and debian includes adding CONFIG_ handling
<Amaranth> is bzr the python git that actually does more?
<dilinger> Amaranth: bzr is the python SCM; git is the "tree management" something-or-other that other SCMs (cogito, monotone or darcs, i forget which) are attempting to base themselves off of
<fabbione> dilinger: ok.. sounds good, perhaps we want to start experimenting the CONFIG_ stuff in ubuntu while traveller plays with the packaging?
<dilinger> fabbione: to be honest, i'd rather get the packaging out of the way first.  the architectures headache causes me much more stress than config file handling
<dilinger> once we have a single source package, CONFIG handling suddenly becomes *my* problem when i do a new kernel-source upload and am required to update configs for 20 different files instead of just 5
<dilinger> so i'll be quick to take care of that ;)
<fabbione> dilinger: ok :)
<dilinger> did i miss anything?
<fabbione> dilinger: we need to set a timeframe for this work
<dilinger> ok
<fabbione> because definetely we can't wait forever
<fabbione> so i suggest we merge the packaging asap
<dilinger> i'm considering this week to be a waste; i've still got a bunch of things i need to take care of related to my new apt
<fabbione> and later the source trees
<dilinger> this weekend/next week, i intend to work on the packaging
<dilinger> i don't know how far along trave11er is yet
<fabbione> dilinger: sounds fine for me
<fabbione> it will give me time to do a few userland things
<fabbione> so i suggest:
<fabbione> - we merge the packaging
<fabbione> basically debian/* !debian/patches
<fabbione> and at a later stage when Debian will start to work on .12 we will merge the code too
* dilinger nods
<zul> so would this mean would we have to keep track of bugs and bugzilla?
<fabbione> at least the common part of debian/patches/*
<fabbione> zul: no
<fabbione> zul: we will only take care of our bugs
<zul> ok
<fabbione> and debian will do it in it's bugtracking
<dilinger> fabbione: i still do intend to get -as kicked off again after .12 (i'll need to write scripts to interface git instead of bk, though.  which is where the git autobuild stuff might tie in..)
<fabbione> we will have different patchsets at the end
<dilinger> so having debian and ubuntu share patches, and call it -as, might work
<fabbione> dilinger: yes.. works for me
<fabbione> and on top everybody adds whatever they want
<fabbione> so that it get's more tasty ;)
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> i think that's it
<fabbione> is there Any Other Businees?
<fabbione> 3
<fabbione> 2
<fabbione> 1
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> thanks everybody
<chmj> :) 
<fabbione> it was nice to see you all
* infinity passes out.
<dilinger> heh
* chmj applause 
<fabbione> and see you again in 2 hours for the backporting meering
<zul> that will keep ogra happy
<chmj> man, I'm gonna miss that 
<fabbione> bye and have a nice evening if you will not show up later
<ogra> heh
<fabbione> dilinger: if it's ok with you we will review possible deadline of the merging later or tomorrow...
* ogra looks for the broom
* fabbione needs to go and cook dinner
* chmj goes home 
<chmj> cheers all !
* zul goes have lunch
<Nafallo> thanx all :-)
* Nafallo starts thinking of dinner.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] :  Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda|| Tue 6 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mdz] : Wed 1 June 1930 UTC Ubuntu Backports discussion || Tue 14 June 20:00 UTC: Tech Board -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda|| Tue 6 June 22:00 UTC Community Council -- http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda || http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel || Find out UTC time with the command "date --utc"
<mako> greetings everyone
<dilinger> hello
<zul> hey mako 
<mako> there's not a bonus meeting in here now, is there?
<Nafallo> hi mako 
<Amaranth> 30 minutes?
<siretart> hi folks
<mako> yeah, 35 or so
<mako> i'm going to start working on the agenda.. 
<siretart> mako: there was, I think
<Amaranth> lets start now, decide to not allow backports, and be done before the backports guys get here :D
<siretart> lol
<tseng|work> too late for that, he's here
<tseng|work> but i second the motion
<tseng|work> *G*
<tseng|work> brb
<Amaranth> jdahl? what's his irc nick?
<Amaranth> err, jdong
* ogra cleans up trhe ashtrays from fabbione's cigarettes
<mako> Amaranth: alas, we're going to be constructive instead :-P
<tseng|work> hello ubunteros
<siretart> hi tseng|work 
<Nafallo> hi tseng|work 
<kassetra> mako: do you want our suggestions on the agenda page as well?
<ogra> sure
<ogra> its a wiki, its for all of us ;)
<\sh> evening people
<ogra> \sh, you stopped packaging ?
<tseng|work> kassetra: i thought I asked you to do that a week ago :(
<tseng|work> the page was empty until a few hours ago
<mako> kassetra: umm.. i'm editing it now
<Amaranth> no backports for packages in main? kinda harsh
<\sh> ogra: yeah....fixed one bug, the next is waiting :( c++ crap
<Amaranth> oh, the meeting hasn't started yet ;)
<kassetra> I have the suggestions, but I wasn't sure you wanted them on the agenda.
<\sh> ogra: and finally it's your thing, gnome ;)
<ogra> \sh, lazy guy, GO PACKAGING, there is still 1/2h left ;)
<tseng|work> Amaranth: uh, not really.
<tseng|work> backports-for-main screws support
<ogra> Amaranth, 30mins
<tseng|work> because people dont readily advertise that they have backported stuff on their system
<siretart> kassetra: I'd suggest to create a new wiki page then
<\sh> ogra: gnome-chemistry-utils
<tseng|work> see the support nightmare for gentoo gnome team with breakmygentoo if you need proof
<Amaranth> good point
<ogra> hmm, \sh *very* important indeed ;)
<mako> give me like 5 minutes more to do this
<\sh> ogra: and taking over ivoks work ;)
<tseng|work> basically people dont understand that third party bugs dont go to bugzilla
<JohnDong> I've tried to get people to understand that...
<ogra> \sh, i saw it, awesome :) i love our team
<tseng|work> JohnDong: its not your fault, they just cant fathom it
<JohnDong> thanks, tseng... I've put disclaimers everywhere on the Backports site... but some people just don't read :)
<tseng|work> a segment of people attracted to crack-of-the-day are not really well aclimated to how OSS works
<kassetra> We're working on ways to really broadcast that idea to people...
<\-> hey JohnDong, thanks for the backports. wanted to say that for a long time.
<JohnDong> thanks :)
<tseng|work> seemingly a large segment
<ogra> yep
<Amaranth> JohnDong: my only problem with the backports is that you've put my stuff in hoary universe instead of hoary-extras ;)
<JohnDong> Amaranth: what package, specifically
<JohnDong> I've taken smeg out due to gnome deps
<Amaranth> JohnDong: oh, then just pymusique and related packages
<Amaranth> JohnDong: I guess gnome-menus from the 2.10 cvs branch was too much crack, eh?
<Amaranth> I need to go back and redo that package...
<JohnDong> gnome-devel broke with those packages
<JohnDong> I can't accept that
* mako just told steve bourne to call back later
<mako> YES THAT BOURNE
<mako> i hope you all feel important
<\sh> whoever it is?
<JohnDong> lol
<infinity> Pfft.  He was calling from my bedroom, dude.
<Amaranth> yeah, every hoary user using my stuff is getting a backport (*gasp*) of gnome-menus that breaks gnome-devel
<\sh> just a VIP ;)
<siretart> has the meeting already begun?
<JohnDong> sort of, I guess
<\sh> no 20mins left
<kassetra> Amaranth - you're going to kill me telling me that.
<\sh> eta:20
<ogra> siretart, in 20
<mako> i'm still finishing the agenda
<\sh> but we're heating up i guess ;)
<JohnDong> mako: thanks for all the time you're putting into this
<JohnDong> we've needed this for a while now
<siretart> heavy discussion already here. promises to be a heatful meeting :)
<Amaranth> this is kind of odd for me
<Amaranth> i've made backports, some of my stuff is in backports, and i'm trying to be a MOTU so i kinda don't like backports...
* Amaranth beats himself up
<kassetra> well, MOTU and backports shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
<JohnDong> I certainly don't try to make anybody use backports...
<JohnDong> and I certainly am not trying to make Backports conflict with Ubuntu efforts
<Amaranth> personally i think universe shouldn't freeze
<Amaranth> hey Ryantroy 
<\sh> Amaranth: i don't think that backports and motu are byting each other..but the problem is, we need a policy for backports...
<kassetra> which is why we're all here.
<\-> why a policy for backports?
<\sh> Amaranth: see gentoo...even gentoo.de has it's own backports repos
<JohnDong> \sh: what do you mean, biting?
<Amaranth> why would gentoo need backports?
<JohnDong> what kinds of conflicts am I not informed?
<JohnDong> amaranth: experimental ebuilds
<Amaranth> ah, breakmygentoo
<JohnDong> amaranth: Version bumps, like what I do, are done with the mv command ;)
<tseng|work> er, gentoo cant have backports
<tseng|work> that doesnt make sense.
<ogra> \-, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports
<JohnDong> tseng:3rd party repo, not really backports
<tseng|work> yes
<tseng|work> thats totally different, more common with apt-get.org
<tseng|work> lets ignore it.
<Ryantroy> Amaranth: hello
<JohnDong> ok
<JohnDong> Perhaps a more relevant example is Fedora...
<Amaranth> Ryantroy: Still waiting on moderator access to my subforum. ;)
<JohnDong> Core 3 shipped with Firefox .10 and since then, they've updated it to 1.0.4
<mako> alright
<mako> i put up a new agenda
<Ryantroy> Amaranth: Yes :) I know... working on that solution atm.. Sorry its taking so long.
<bob2> isn't Core 4 out, or nearly so?
<mako> EVERY GO EDIT IT AT ONCE
<JohnDong> bob2: almost
<mako> EVERYONE GO EDIT IT AT ONCE
<bob2> mako: ONE
<JohnDong> mako: lol
<Amaranth> yes, let's break it
<bob2> BREAKMYWIKI, it'll be awesome
<mako> it's obvious
<Amaranth> doesn't rosetta handle people editing things at the same time?
<bob2> moin at -O9!
<mako> screw moin
<siretart> hey dholbach :)
<dholbach> hey
<bob2> Amaranth: rosetta != wiki
<tseng|work> bob2: -j007
<ogra> hi dholbach 
<JohnDong> *resisting urge to CTRL-A*
<JohnDong> j/k
<Amaranth> bob2: It could be. :)
<JohnDong> ;)
<mako> screw moin, lets replace zwiki with BAZ
<bob2> hahaha
<kassetra> LOL
<mako> SUCH A GOOD IDEA
<dholbach> :)
<bob2> mako: harsh!
<mako> that will make mdz happy
<tseng|work> hah
<tseng|work> plaintext in version control
<tseng|work> im down for that
<bob2> mako: only Subversion can deliver the enterprise synergy and XML compatbility needed in todays heady internet marketplace.
<ogra> hey jbailey :)
<JohnDong> bob2: I've had a LOT of trouble with subversion
<Amaranth> bob2: Congrats, you've blown the top off the bullshit-o-meter. :)
<JohnDong> Ryan can testify to svnadmin recover
<JohnDong> lol
<Amaranth> JohnDong: Use the fsfs backend.
<bob2> Amaranth: I'd like to thank Jeebus, and the forums and Scientology.
<JohnDong> Amaranth: I could change systems now that my lazy cycle is done
<JohnDong> Amaranth: before I served directly from mod-dav-svn
<drmaravo> hola holita flanders terrex
<Amaranth> JohnDong: scary
<JohnDong> Amaranth: tell me about it
<terrex> drmaravo: X-D
<Amaranth> perfect timing, as always
<mdz> mako: do we have an agenda for the backports discussion?
<JohnDong> mdz:http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports
<JohnDong> I'm quite happy with this agenda
<ogra> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports
<Burgundavia> always good before a meeting, a netsplit
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> kornbluth.freenode.net
<ogra> haha
<ogra> dilinger incognito
<\sh> ah there ;)
<dilinger> uhm?
<\sh> freenode hub ddos ;)
<ogra> dilinger, havent seen you yet with this name :)
<dilinger> ouh yeah
<Amaranth> hide!
<\sh> hahaa....now i know why i had so much traffic on my line
<dilinger> gentoo rulez!
<\sh> samba greets me
<ogra> GOOD MORNING JDUB !
* zul smacks dilinger 
<tseng|work> "How can the backports team guarantee that system works after using their packages, are backports rather using cdbs or debhelper?"
<tseng|work> what does this mean
<JohnDong> I was looking at that, too
<Amaranth> KDE 10x10!
* Amaranth runs
* Riddell pats Amaranth 
<ogra> Amaranth, lol
<JohnDong> tseng: I think it's a question on the method we use to build packages?
<\sh> and all those windows noobs tried to inject me with this stupid viruses
<tseng|work> well i imagine you dont touch rules
<Amaranth> i'm running gnome-panel, kicker, and xfce4-panel, which do i choose? :)
<\sh> KDE 90x10 it says ;) because gnome only 10x10 ;)
<bob2> JohnDong: that can't be it
<bob2> JohnDong: you can't be touching debian/rules when backporting things
<tseng|work> if you did i'd be beating you alot harder :P
<tseng|work> so the question seems odd
<JohnDong> tseng: no, I don't touch rules, lol
<infinity> bob2 : Says you.  I've done some pretty intrusive backporting.
<Amaranth> ouch
<Amaranth> netsplit bites back
<tseng|work> well actually you should have for mono
<ogra> Amaranth, you still have left one edge
<bob2> infinity: you don't count!
<tseng|work> but thats another story
<JohnDong> tseng: yeah... Mono is really a mistake....
<ogra> Amaranth, for an xtra panel ;)
<bob2> infinity: it was the hat doing the editing, afaict
<Amaranth> ogra: i should be running it all on e17?
<zul> ahem...kernel...
<ogra> hehe
<JohnDong> tseng: BTW, the Beagle Wiki uses Backports as its primary Ubuntu installation method, though ;)
<tseng|work> zul: dude help me backport glibc
<JohnDong> LOL
<infinity> bob2 : Altogether possible.  The hat always has had a thing for makefiles.
<tseng|work> JohnDong: uh
<zul> tseng|work: no i want to live to a ripe old age
<tseng|work> i tried to explain to seb (who did that) why thats crack
<JohnDong> tseng: not trying to give you high blood pressure
<tseng|work> he cant understand
<tseng|work> i beat on him for 2 hours or so
<JohnDong> Oh, he wrote that wiki article?
<tseng|work> he just cant fathom why something that appears to work to him can be wrong
<ajmitch> hi
<ogra> hey ajmitch 
<\sh> ETA 3
<Amaranth> beagle wiki's install method broke my system when i upgraded to breezy :/
<tseng|work> hi andrew
<JohnDong> Amaranth: that shouldn't be possible
<bob2> ajmitch: hah, up early
<JohnDong> Amaranth: Backports doesn't survive if you put in Breezy
<tseng|work> i actually told him to leave it as it was, rather than promote breezy
<JohnDong> yeah, you told me that, too ;)
* dieman watches in
<tseng|work> i dont want those users using breezy anymore than I do backports
<Amaranth> JohnDong: It was an old mono backport
<siretart> 3minutes to go :)
<tseng|work> at this stage
<Amaranth> actually i think it came from manno.name
<tseng|work> ...
<JohnDong> tseng: Yeah, Backports mono is a mess, I'll agree :(
<tseng|work> those are the WORST
<tseng|work> its all native packages
<bob2> haha
<Amaranth> hey, i just followed the beagle wiki :P
<tseng|work> and he didnt merge mcs and mono sources
<ogra> argh native packages
<tseng|work> no idea where he got an mcs orig
<kassetra> Ok, mono was not our brightest moment in the backports world.
<bob2> "deb http://manno.name/debian/ breezy cvs", debian, breezy, cvs.  WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?
<ogra> err
<tseng|work> kassetra, that wasnt backports
<tseng|work> that was some guy making his own package
<Amaranth> haha
<zul> bob2: besides a fatal beating
<JohnDong> Can we please stop mentioning non-backports 3rd party repos?
<tseng|work> yes.
* tseng|work hits Amaranth
<JohnDong> :)
<\sh> ok ETA 1 packaging a cigarette ;)
<Amaranth> they kinda all get lumped together when users have extra repos in their sources.list and ask for help on #ubuntu
<bob2> zul: hey, I'm not the manno.name person
<Amaranth> is that macewan?
<JohnDong> Amaranth: Yeah, and I often get blamed for that too
<JohnDong> Amaranth: I've got a guy bitching at me because his Sid sources no longer work...
<JohnDong> and it was aparantly my fault...
<JohnDong> lol
<bob2> Amaranth: someone needs to talk to the ubuntuguide person about the "Recommended" sources.list crap
<ogra> yeah
<tseng|work> someone is already woking on ubuntuguide
<JohnDong> bob2: Would you rather have him recommending Marillat?
<Amaranth> bob2: jiyou?
<ogra> ouch
<Amaranth> he was, for awhile
<ogra> JohnDong, what for either ?
<\sh> transcode :(
<JohnDong> transcode, acroread 7
<bob2> JohnDong: I don't know.
<Amaranth> half the people with broken systems in #ubuntu have sid marillat enabled
<JohnDong> You guys gotta admit, Backports is safer than Marillat
<Amaranth> ok, time for the meeting to start
<mdz> mako: are we ready?
<bob2> JohnDong: presumably you guys don't have crap like w32codecs in there, tho
<siretart> Amaranth: ++
<JohnDong> and Backports is safer than forcing Sid packages to install
<tseng|work> maybe we should just backport marillat
<mako> alright
<tseng|work> that would be awesomes.
<JohnDong> I was working on that
<mako> alright.. i don't have ops here
<JohnDong> a lot of Marillat is in Backports
<JohnDong> but let's move on :)
<mako> so i can't forcefully SILENCE PEOPLE :)
<JohnDong> **Ready to start
<mako> (yet)
<ogra> JohnDong, its also in multiverse
<tseng|work> MAKO HAS THE STAGE
<Amaranth> jdub: ping?
<jdub> Amaranth: pong
<mako> so we need to all show restraint here
<Amaranth> jdub: op mako :)
<mako> so anyway
<ogra> Amaranth, we're all grown up...
<mako> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports
<mdz> before we dive in, we should elect someone to take notes
<mdz> and summarize the discussion, preferably in the form of a draft spec
<mako> everytime we need quiet, mdz will ask that question
<mdz> any volunteers?
<mdz> mako: good idea
<kassetra> well, I'll volunteer, but I'll need to know some specifics.
<mako> kassetra: sure
<mako> kassetra:  i can go over the form with you.. take notes often means just go through the log later
<ogra> kassetra, see the specs on udu.wiki.ubuntu.com
<kassetra> k.
<mako> kassetra: thanks :)
<mako> kassetra: but yeah.. if you need summary or overview, stop us at anytime
<kassetra> ok.
<kassetra> will do.
<ogra> kassetra, there are alos logs of the meetings to review if you need
<ogra> also even
<kassetra> (ok.  :)
<mako> ok.. so the agenda is not set in stone
<mako> but we should try to stick to it generally
<JohnDong> Ok
<mako> we'll call for any othe comments on particular issues in the subsections
<ogra> for anyone: people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<mako> and we should be ready to put issues to rest or to put them off for a later meeting if we're going down a rathole
<JohnDong> ok
<fabbione> please somebody else should also record the irc logs
<mdz> I'm logging
<kassetra> I have them being recorded as well.
<fabbione> since freenode is not exactly stable today
<mako> i'm logging too
<Amaranth> i'm logging
<Burgundavia> I am logging
<JohnDong> we get the point
<Amaranth> hehe
<mako> JohnDong: alright dude :)
<JohnDong> lol
<mako> JohnDong: why don't you give us a brief background on the backports project
<JohnDong> sure
<mako> emphasize what we probably don't know
<Amaranth> in case of netsplit, stop discussion
<JohnDong> The Backports project started halfway through Warty's release, when Firefox 1.0 came out
<JohnDong> Primarily, I intended to address apps like GAIM And Firefox getting dated through the 6-month release cycle
<JohnDong> From there, I registered a SF project and started offering two or three debs
<JohnDong> Ryan also made arrangements with me for a Ubuntu Backports section @ the forums
<JohnDong> since then, requests have been exponentially growing, and soon SF booted me off :)
<mako> why?
<JohnDong> too much bandwidth
<Amaranth> too much bandwidth
<JohnDong> to do APT repositories, I had to use Public Web Services
<mako> how much bandwidth were you using?
<JohnDong> 20GB or so daily
<JohnDong> They've been "setting up a sandbox" for me, since last October :)
<\-> this should tell how much people like the backports :)
<JohnDong> Anyway, we moved to a Ubuntu Forums server and continued happily
<JohnDong> Today, the repository houses 400 packages weighing in at 14GB, with about 40GB daily transfer and 24,000+ unique IP's logged in a 7-day period
<Amaranth> damn
<Lathiat> wow
<mez>  That's not including Mirrors
<mako> how many people are contributing backports
<\sh> 1.2TB per month
<mdz> JohnDong: which 400 packages?
<JohnDong> primarily desktop programs from Universe
<mako> can we get a list?
<mdz> JohnDong: and how do you decide which packages?
<JohnDong> users request them, I make sure they're not too big, then I package them
<mako> JohnDong: are you the only person doing packages?
<JohnDong> mako: it's available via rsync
<fabbione> JohnDong: do you repackage them, or you use the ones from a newer ubuntu suite?
<JohnDong> mako: no, there are 2 new developers, fairly recently added
<mako> JohnDong: it might be nice to take a look at that list right now
<mdz> JohnDong: do you support any non-i386 architectures?
<JohnDong> before Hoary, I was the only one
<mako> JohnDong: ok
<JohnDong> we're starting to support powerpc
<JohnDong> http://ubuntu-backports.mirrormax.net/
<JohnDong> you can get a rough idea of what I backport by looking into the repository
<Amaranth> you packaged 400 packages by yourself?
<JohnDong> yeah
<dholbach> 400 packages take up 14gb?
<JohnDong> with history :)
<ogra> how that ?
<fabbione> JohnDong: can you answer my question please?
<fabbione> JohnDong: do you repackage them, or you use the ones from a newer ubuntu suite?
<mako> dholbach: many versions
<JohnDong> sorry
<JohnDong> fabbione: I recompile Breezy packages
<pitti> JohnDong: you take unstable Ubuntu's packages and build them for hoary/warty? Or do you really repackage them? (Why?)
<JohnDong> I try not to modify them
<ogra> ouch
<JohnDong> I take Ubuntu devel packages and rebuild them for Haory
<pitti> ah, ok
<mdz> so in what way is the result different, from a usability standpoint, from Breezy itself?
<JohnDong> stability.
<fabbione> JohnDong: what criteria do you use to select build-dependencies?
<JohnDong> aah, one at a time
<Amaranth> no g++ tranistion, no x transition
<mdz> JohnDong: do you only update the packages when you decide that they are stable?
<JohnDong> correct
<mdz> Amaranth: but we didn't do those things during Hoary, and still there were backports
<JohnDong> only when the community tests to deem it stable
<Amaranth> mdz: agreed, it didn't make as much sense then
<mdz> but it happened, so clearly there was some need
<JohnDong> fabbione: I try only to select packages that are satisfied by Hoary dev packages
<mako> JohnDong: do you rebuild against a system with backports or against a pure hoary system in each case?
<mdz> I'm trying to establish what the use cases are which are not met, or not seen as met, by our existing offering
<\sh> mdz: update policy of ubuntu ... but later
<JohnDong> I rebuild against a Backports chroot
<ogra> JohnDong, who reviews you packaging changes if they happen ?
<mdz> what is it that users are looking for which leads them to backports, and not to any of our existing trees?
<Amaranth> guys, one at a time please
<NetGeek> sorry I'm late
* doko wonders about classifying GCC as desktop application
<dholbach> could all the backport developers in here raise their hand?
<mako> NetGeek: we're all asking JohnDong questions at once
<JohnDong> mdz, about the demand for Backports:
<Mez> mdz, people coming to use backports are basically looking for the most up to date version of general desktop apps
<JohnDong> some packages become useless very quickly
<kassetra> mdz: typically a user request a backport because they want a new feature / bug fix, etc.
<NetGeek> btw: I'm Mike a Backport Developer
<mako> JohnDong: useless is pretty subjective
<Amaranth> Mez: Are you the other one?
<mdz> mako: extremely so
<Mez> no - I'm a backports user ;)
<fabbione> JohnDong, NetGeek: so.. how come there was a new version of glibc available from backports?
<JohnDong> sorry for the bad wording
<kassetra> mdz: if they're requesting an application be backported without a meaningful reason, we won't backport it.
<JohnDong> aaahhhhhh
<Amaranth> mako: If the user considers it useless, it's useless.
<mdz> Amaranth: but different users have vastly different criteria
<mako> kassetra: really?
<JohnDong> fabbione: Firefox 1.0.4 Breezy is compiled with GCC4, so I decided to do the same
<kassetra> mako: really.
<jdub> mdz: interesting use case -> regularly putting new versions of cool (reviewed?) apps on a magazine coverdisk
<mdz> I know a lot of people who are happy with the web browser, IM client, etc. in hoary, and even Warty
<mako> kassetra: how many requests are rejected?
<JohnDong> right now, it's a 50-50
<mdz> jdub: I don't think that's what backports is being used for today, though
<fabbione> JohnDong: did any of you evaluated the impact of a new glibc?
<jbailey> fabbione: Did it appear and then go away?  I didn't see it in the backports tree when I was trying to hunt it down.
<fabbione> and if so.. how
<mdz> JohnDong: wait, so you're using g++-4.0 in backports now?
<ogra> ouch
<jdub> mdz: people see version number increases and begin to salivate, regardless of wheter or not it makes sense to upgrade
<JohnDong> mdz: only with packages in breezy that explicitly call gcc-4.0
<Burgundavia> jbailey, I did some hunting as well, and I couldn't find it on the usual suspects (backports, marilliat)
* Amaranth cancels statement about not using breezy
<JohnDong> currently, that's ONLY FIREFOX
<\sh> uhhhh
<JohnDong> it DOES NOT COMPILE with 3.3
<mako> lets try to stay away from the specifics right now
<JohnDong> fabbione: what new glibc?
<infinity> JohnDong : Would make more sense to edit firefox's debian/rules to not explicitly call the new compiler, then.
<mdz> JohnDong: you can't build firefox with g++-4.0 unless you also build all its dependencies with g++-4.0
<mdz> mako: this is valuable, for me at least
<JohnDong> infinity: it still doesn't compile
<mako> mdz: alright
<infinity> JohnDong : what mdz said.  You're asking for a world of C++ ABI trouble.
<JohnDong> the code has changed since
<fabbione> JohnDong: somehow a bunch of users using backports did have a newer version of glibx
<fabbione> glibc evenb
<Amaranth> they had a crack repo enabled then
<sabdfl> hi all
<Amaranth> hey sabdfl 
<mdz> it sounds like you're running into the ABI transition issue anyway
<\sh> evening sabdfl 
<Mez> fabbione, it's only in the staging area at the moment if I remember correctly
<ogra> which caused a LOT of trouble and dragged a lot of manpower
<Amaranth> JohnDong: You should explain staging maybe?
<JohnDong> are we getting into specifics already???
<kassetra> wait.
<ogra> hey sabdfl 
<mdz> sabdfl: JohnDong is helping to educate us about what backports are today
<mako> ogra: hold off
<fabbione> Mez: well the point is that it's breaking hoary-security updates (including the kernel)
<ajmitch> hello sabdfl 
<mvo> hey sabdfl 
<kassetra> John: why don't you explain what mdz asked about first.
<ogra> mako, sure
<fabbione> Mez: but we can talk about tech details later
<fabbione> hi sabdfl 
<mako> fabbione: yes
<doko> JohnDong, you should use a compiler from breezy, namely g++-3.4 -fabi-version=1. upgrading system libraries shouldn't be done in backports
<JohnDong> thanks for that info
<\sh> JohnDong: why didn't u try to talk to the devs for reviewing the policy of updating ubuntu?
<Amaranth> I thought 3.4 was ABI incompatible with 3.3
<mdz> doko: let's discuss for now what is happening, and later decide what should happen :-)
<doko> s/breezy/hoary/ of coursse
<mako> i think we should probably try to establish something like this a little bit later as a good policy to move forward with
<mako> what mdz said
<mako> JohnDong: why don't explain staging
<mdz> \sh: it has come up many times already; we will not abandon the idea of a stable release
<Amaranth> ok, let's try to get back on track
<\sh> mdz: i know :)
<JohnDong> staging: When a backport gets packaged it goes into beta-testing under the -staging section of the repository
<JohnDong> that way, we can see how the package behaves in a live APT repo
<Mez> mako: it says this about staging "But, BIG FAT WARNING: The staging area should be treated like Debian experimental -- it's NOT tested, NOT guaranteed in any way, shape or form to be stable!"
<mako> how many people use it?
<siretart> JohnDong: what criteria do you have for moving it to the regular backport archive?
<mako> how long do things stay in staging?
<Amaranth> 7 days, iirc
<JohnDong> stuff stays in staging for at least a week, sometimes a month or more
<NetGeek> mako, one week usually
<sabdfl> is -staging like -security or -updates?
<JohnDong> no
<sabdfl> it's a separate little repo?
<JohnDong> it's like a -experimental
<JohnDong> yep
<sabdfl> ok
<mako> sabdfl: no, it's just testing for the main backports archive
<JohnDong> to separate the testing from the stable
<kassetra> mako: we try not to let go of items in staging if there are still errors.
<JohnDong> siretart: no bug reports in staging
<sabdfl> ok. so folks who want latest crack go there, others get it from  the primary backport repo
<mako> how are bugs reported?
<mdz> JohnDong: yes, it is like -security or -updates in the sense that sabdfl meant
<JohnDong> NONE... it's a beta testing area
<kassetra> sabdfl: well, those are the ones we mark "for testing purposes only!"
<JohnDong> it's more like a testing area for -updates
<suifur> mako: we receive them via our forum at http://ubuntuforums.org
<JohnDong> the entire Backports repo is like hoary-updates
<siretart> JohnDong: do you have a bug tracking system or goes bugreporting exclusivly through webforums?
<mdz> yes, but the point of testing is to get feedback :-)  where does the feedback go?
<kassetra> mdz: the forums
<mdz> there must be some means to report problems, or you wouldn't know whether they work or not
<JohnDong> in the Ubuntu Backports section of Ubuntuforums
<mdz> ok, so bug reports go to the forums
<mako> mdz: it all goes to the forums
<JohnDong> correct
<mako> alright.. 
<sabdfl> JohnDong: would it be useful to have a more structured bug management system for the staging area? or do you actively want that stuff on a forum/mailing list?
<JohnDong> sabdfl: not really, do you really want users to register for another account??
<JohnDong> they'd be much less willing to file a bug report
<sabdfl> Kinnison is writing the infrastructure which will manage archives etc for breezy+1, so i thought to invite him along
<\sh> JohnDong: when those people reporting to official bugzilla or malone...it doesn't matter ;)
<suifur> sabdfl: the forum has been effective and we've seen no reason to change the bug-reporting system
<mako> JohnDong: well, it would be the same login for the website, wiki, launchpad, etc
<sabdfl> JohnDong: we only do one account around here :-)
* Kinnison intends to mostly lurk; if people want me to comment on something, ping me so irssi turns red
<siretart> JohnDong: take a look at the debian bts. you can file bugs without accounts there
<Amaranth> heh, with smeg they don't even seem to be willing to make a new thread for bugs, asking them to make a new account somewhere would kill any hope for bug reports
<JohnDong> mako: If it can be integrated with Ubuntu's bugzilla, that'd be awesome
<sabdfl> JohnDong: it would be
<mako> JohnDong: exactly
<JohnDong> I'm all for it :)
<mdz> JohnDong: there is already a single login for the website/wiki, malone, rosetta, etc.
<mako> ok, that's a possibility
<sabdfl> we already have the infrastructure to support this
<\sh> can we wait with integrating something in something?
<JohnDong> thanks for letting me know
<Amaranth> ok, back on track
<mdz> it would be nice if we could share credentials with the forums
<JohnDong> yeah
<mako> before we move on though, can we back to questions about backports is and what it is doing?
<Amaranth> mdz: talk to Ryantroy 
<JohnDong> ONE AT A TIME :) :)
<Ryantroy> Hello
<\sh> JohnDong: so r u only backporting apps or also essential libs (libs in main and/or universe?)
<JohnDong> no libs
<JohnDong> just apps
<JohnDong> mostly in universe
<JohnDong> but a hand-picked FEW in main
<JohnDong> like Firefox, Gaim, xchat
<JohnDong> I've never went deeper than that :)
<mako> any other questions about what backports are.. how they are done, etc?
<ogra> JohnDong, but hwo do you handle C++ then ?
<mdz> JohnDong: what do you do if the current version of the app in Breezy doesn't work with the libs/infrastructure currently in backports?
<JohnDong> mdz: with the second FF 1.0.4 backport, I've tried to introduce GCC4
<ogra> in hoary ?
<JohnDong> I though since GCC4's alpha was already in Universe, introducing the real thing wouldn't hurt
<JohnDong> yeah
<JohnDong> After a month of testing, nobody's said anything's wrong
<JohnDong> and I use ubuntu for at least 8 hours daily
<\sh> JohnDong: did u have any concerns breaking binary compatiblity in hoary?
<JohnDong> I did, and that's why it stayed in -staging for a month
<sabdfl> JohnDong: is FF C++?
<JohnDong> yes
<mdz> sabdfl: very much so
<Amaranth> *shudder*
<mdz> JohnDong: so what did you do about the ABI transition?
<Amaranth> so wouldn't that break everything in hoary that uses firefox?
<JohnDong> I haven't seen any problems yet
<sabdfl> is the breakage then confined to any FF libraries that other apps might use?
<JohnDong> All that build on mozilla-firefox-dev work fine
<mdz> JohnDong: after a rebuild, you mean
<JohnDong> no, no rebuild
<JohnDong> Epiphany worked fine
<ogra> JohnDong, o still use mozilla-ff, not ff ?
<Amaranth> that's impossible
<\sh> Amaranth: not at all...if u r using ff as an app it won't break anything...if you need some things from some ff libs u r lost
<mdz> oh, firefox-dev exports a C interface, not a C++ one
<JohnDong> ogra: I have both names as aliases for each other, to aid in transition
<ogra> OUCH
<doko> firefox doesn't have any external C++ build deps, so if you don't build firefox-dev, then the C++ ABI version doesn't matter
<\sh> mdz: no c++ stuff in those libs?
<JohnDong> I tested Firefox dependents a lot
<mdz> \sh: inside, yes, but not exporting an interface
<ogra> did you check how it breaks upgradeability ?
<\sh> mdz: ok 
<JohnDong> I play with chroots and bringing them to 
<JohnDong> Breezy
<JohnDong> Also, I use the "~" version tag in Backports
<JohnDong> so everything's "older" than Breezy
<Amaranth> i've never quite understood how that worked
<JohnDong> All backports get removed when someone apt-get upgrades to Breezy
<JohnDong> Amaranth: foo 1.0.0~ubp is older than foo 1.0.0
<JohnDong> the "~" tag is special
<mdz> JohnDong: how can you be sure of that (all backports get removed)?
<mako> well, that's one part of upgradability
<JohnDong> mdz: because I know all Backports packages are older than Breezy's
<sabdfl> the version ordering is well documented and implemented
<Amaranth> so you have to bump the version number to match the one in breezy?
<mdz> JohnDong: what if the package is removed in breezy?
<sabdfl> if there's a ~ in there it's older
<JohnDong> how often does Firefox get removed from Breezy ? ;)
<mdz> JohnDong: we're going to do it shortly
<mdz> mozilla-firefox has been renamed to firefox
<sabdfl> mdz: we don't in any event guarantee that a hoary -> breezy upgrade == breezy install
<JohnDong> To answer your question: I make an override package in Breezy backports
<JohnDong> mdz: what do you do without backports if Firefox is removed?
<mdz> sabdfl: no, but we know where everything came from
<mdz> JohnDong: we'll rely on the metapackages for the transition
<sabdfl> mdz: we won't in the real world with 3rd party ISV's, so we shouldn't be too paranoid
<mdz> sabdfl: that's different, backports contain infrastructure components, ISV's don't
<JohnDong> mdz: If it doesn't get automatically overridden in extreme cases, I'll do it via a fake Breezy backport
<JohnDong> I've yet to see this happen though...
<mdz> it depends entirely on which packages you decide to backport
* mako nods
<mdz> which is one of the reasons I'm interested in that list
<JohnDong> any good place for me to post it?
<sabdfl> the wiki
<ogra> JohnDong, ubuntu-devel mailinglist
<fabbione> or both
<ogra> yep
<fabbione> ;)
<siretart> :)
<Amaranth> you want to dump a list of 400 packages in the wiki?
<\sh> summary: there is a extra repos  with ca. 400 packages making 1.2TB per month downloads 
<\sh> JohnDong: why didn't u apply for a motu job? ,-)
<mako> Amaranth: yes.. 
<ogra> Amaranth, sure we work with it regulary on such a base with MOTU
<mako> Amaranth: 400 is not so long a list
<Amaranth> ogra: I seem to remember firefox locking up and crashing on those MOTU pages. :)
<\sh> Amaranth: the c++ transistion list is on the wiki...and it works ;) 
<ogra> Amaranth, thats a ff bug ;)
<kassetra> I'll add the package list to the wiki.
<mako> kassetra: great, thanks
<mako> alright.. 
<mako> are there more specific questions for JohnDong or others about what backports do or how they do it?
<mako> if not, we can move on...
<\sh> mako: the how is explained on their webpage
<JohnDong> sent to the list
<mako> JohnDong: thanks
<mdz> I count 184 packages in hoary-backports
<JohnDong> yeah
<JohnDong> Warty has quite a few, too
<mdz> main+restricted+universe+multiverse
<mdz> oh, so that's 400 .debs
<Amaranth> mdz: don't forget extras
<JohnDong> yeah
<JohnDong> extras, too
<mdz> how many actual source packages, do you know?
<JohnDong> I don't have that number
<mdz> there are no sources on the backports mirror
<JohnDong> they're all Breezy sources
<pitti> JohnDong: to what percentage you can used breezy source packages unmodified?
<JohnDong> I thought wasting space on that would be pointless
<sabdfl> need to have sources :-)
<mako> JohnDong: you should probably fix that, from a gpl compliance issue
<JohnDong> pitti: 100%
<pitti> JohnDong: uh, that's surprising :-)
<JohnDong> mako: can I just point to Ubuntu sources?
<fabbione> that's impossible
<ogra> yep
<JohnDong> why do you say so?
<ogra> JohnDong, not if you modified them
<Amaranth> we've seem how many things have changed in breezy
<ogra> JohnDong, (pomit to ubunu that is)
<ogra> pint even
<Amaranth> for instance, any C++ backport would be changed
<fabbione> because there are at least a few dependencies or build-dependencies that you need to modify
* ogra curses his keyboard
<mako> JohnDong: you need to be responsible to provide them to people
<ajmitch> and also because you need to at least change the version number to rebuild each one
<mdz> 54 source packages
<bob2> if nothing else, you've changed the version
<mdz> so we are talking about a MUCH smaller amount of code than I thought
<mako> alright.. in most cases, the changes are very minor
<JohnDong> yeah;
<ogra> JohnDong, GPL forces _your_ to provide your changes as source...
<mako> mdz: that's good news
<Amaranth> 54 slightly changed source packages
<JohnDong> changes are limited to a few extra chars on changelogs
<JohnDong> ogra: how about "~5.04ubp1"????
<mdz> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/temp/backports-sources.txt
<mako> JohnDong: still need to provide source but that's not a conversation we need to have
<Amaranth> this is starting to not sound so bad
<mdz> 5 versions of gcc!
<ogra> JohnDong, that doesnt give ppl the changes in the source
<JohnDong> mdz: huh?
<tseng|work> JohnDOng: you cant post a binary w/o source if its a different binary than in breezy
<mdz> oh, that's probably an error in my source mapping logic
<JohnDong> the binaries ARE NOT DIFFERENCE
<JohnDong> DIFFERENT
<ogra> JohnDong, sure
<Amaranth> can't you provide sources as a patch against the breezy source?
<zul> mdz: i noticed linux-image-2.6.10-19 was there as well
<JohnDong> sure
<ogra> Amaranth, yes
<mako> alright lets try to reign this in a bit.. the source distribution issue and gpl stuff is not super relevant
<mako> at least not to this discussion
<doko> JohnDong, why do you need all these GCC versions?
<\sh> at least, we know now, that backports is not only updating, it's even upgrading in some areas (like ff)
<infinity> doko : I think that was an error in mdz's script. :)
<mdz> yes, I've fixed it up by hand
<JohnDong> doko: what GCC version???
<mdz> the fastest way to do it was to map the packages based on breezy
<fabbione> mdz: kernel is still missing :)
<JohnDong> zul: that was for Warty
<mako> JohnDong: it was a script error :)
<ogra> gcc-4.0_4.0.0-7ubuntu6~5.04ubp1_i386.deb
<JohnDong> lol
<JohnDong> ok
<mdz> fabbione: feel free to do it yourself
<ogra> gcc-4.0-doc_4.0.0-7ubuntu6~5.04ubp1_all.deb
<Amaranth> aside from mono this list doesn't look bad at all
<mdz> I just wanted an idea of what was there
<JohnDong> guys, a family issue has popped up
<JohnDong> I'll need to leave for about 15-20 minutes
<fabbione> mdz: hence the ":)"
<zul> JohnDong: that was still way behind
<mako> JohnDong: alright.. 
<mako> are there other bp people around?
<JohnDong> zul: that never made it to stable
<JohnDong> yeah
<kassetra> yes.
<Amaranth> NetGeek
<mako> JohnDong: hurry back
<JohnDong> and Kass can help you out
<Ryantroy> hello
<Amaranth> oh, and kassetra 
<JohnDong> I'll keep logging
<kassetra> :)
<ogra> there is a ton of libs in that list
<mdz> fabbione: I see no linux-* anywhere in the hoary-backports Packages.gz
<mdz> Ryantroy: hi
<Amaranth> and Ryantroy has something to do with all of this, as ubuntuforums admin
<Amaranth> i guess
<pitti> uh, tla, but no bazaar :-/
<fabbione> mdz: as JohnDong said, it's in warty from hoary
<mdz> fabbione: did I miss something?
<Amaranth> who would request tla? :P
<mdz> fabbione: I only looked at hoary backports
<fabbione> well there are backports to warty too.. zul?
<Amaranth> btw, nothing from main is a bit extreme
<mako> i have one more question
<zul> fabbione: i believe so
<siretart> are the backports for warty updated with sources from breezy?
<mako> are people actively backporting stuff to warty still?
<ajmitch> Amaranth: supportability issues for canonical..
<zul> mdz: i saw it in the forums...ill dig it up again
<\sh> at least no libstdc++6 ;)
<\sh> in warty
<tseng|work> i was told that backports to dists were removed when the dist+1 became rasonably stable
<Mez> mako - according to the developers group - this stoopped a while back
<ogra> Amaranth, but that breaks stuff, heavily
<mako> Mez: ok.. good to know
<Amaranth> for example, gnome-menus in hoary has a bug that makes menu editing impossible, the patch is about 60 lines
<zul> mdz: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=15913
<tseng|work> or just stopped new backports I guess
<doko> \sh, libstdc++6 is in warty
<mdz> zul: ok, that's warty
<doko> maybe universe
<kassetra> tseng: correct.
<mako> alright.. we need to move on
<Amaranth> they don't have the bandwidth to support backports for more than one distro
<Amaranth> err, more than one distro release
<mdz> I would like to raise the question of security support
<mako> can we establish if there are any more remaining questions here about what backports are?
<mdz> once a package has been backported, how are security  updates handled?
<ogra> mako, the list is enough
<mdz> (if they are)
<mkde> i am interested in "why" the backports are
<mako> kassetra, Mez: ?
<Amaranth> mako: i think we're good there
<Ryantroy> Amar: we got 4 mirrors now and the main BP server has plenty of bandwidth
<mkde> maybe that is OT tho
<ogra> mako, and JohnDong's explanations
<Amaranth> mkde: was explained at the beginning
<kassetra> mdz: let me grab that explanation for you.
<mako> kassetra: great
<mkde> Amaranth, ok i missed it
<Amaranth> mkde: check fabbione's logs
<mkde> Amaranth, they are not quite current i don't think
<mkde> but i will later
<sabdfl> mdz: if backports are generally the next version's sources, they would inherit our security work
<Amaranth> mkde: want me to paste in a PM for you?
<\sh> the bandwidth is nothing...when I think about the wide user range
<mkde> Amaranth, that would be lovely thanks
<Amaranth> sabdfl: only if the backport is updated
<mako> sabdfl: right, but not on our timescale
<kassetra> sabdfl: correct, and yes, we do update backports.
<fabbione> sabdfl: only if they are regularly maintained
<ogra> sabdfl, only if upgradeability is guaranteed
<fabbione> well as the above
<kassetra> mako: John stays on top of security fixes for any package he backports.
<mdz> sabdfl: we don't do security work in the development branch until after upstreamversionfreeze, at the earliest
<ogra> kassetra, for all 400 ?
<infinity> sabdfl : Only if they continue to upgrade their backports.  People will often backport a version, then not update it for a month.
<mako> and since there are only ~50 source packages, that's relatively straight forward
<mdz> it would be a waste of effort
<pitti> JohnDong: are you aware that currently I do not actively do security updates for Breezy? mostly we get them through Debian
<kassetra> ogra: yes.
<Amaranth> we are now down to one bp developer here
<mako> Amaranth: JohnDong will reappear in a few minutes
<ogra> kassetra, so he is subscribed to the secret mailing lists handling vulnerabilitys ?
<kassetra> mako: exactly, we aren't backporting large amount of code, so security fixes are relatively minor.
<kassetra> ogra: yes.
<ogra> ok
<pitti> most issues are fixed, but there are certainly one or two unfixed vulnerabilities in Breezy
<mdz> pitti: he's away for a bit
<mako> kassetra: right, but pitti is saying that *we're* not even providing real security support for the breezy packages
<pitti> yeah, I just noticed
<mako> can i get one last call for open questions about backports?
<kassetra> mako: right, he checks securityfocus as well.
<Mez> mako, so doesnt htta mean tahtyou're making the people helping out by bugtesting breezy vulnerable to security issues?
<pitti> Mez: really bad issues are fixed
<mako> we're making them vulnerable to a wide range of issues.. welcome to development releases
<Amaranth> Mez: it's a development version, they really shouldn't expect it to be bug and exploit free
<sabdfl> infinity: what if we did it automatically?
<pitti> Mez: but if it is convenient, I just mail a patch to Debian and wait until they fixed it, which might last a week in some cases
<mako> alright.. 
<mako> lets move on
<infinity> sabdfl : Then you lose the promised stability of a backport repo.  When I used to backport stuff, I would pay attention to the debian changelogs (okay, I cheated, i wrote the debian changelogs), and I'd only backport and publish known-good versions.
<Mez> piti, then if you're deeming certain things to be not "important" enough to be fxe din your dev version, does it make a difference if they're in the backport?
<infinity> sabdfl : You can't really automate that sort of "I think this version's good and stable enough to release it to users" very well.
<mkde> Mez, yeah because the backport gets used with peoples' hoary
<ogra> Mez, its a _development_ version.... we only care about the most critical things
<mkde> which should be secure/stable
<pitti> Mez: yes, I think so, since stable versions should not have any open issues
<sabdfl> infinity: good point
<pitti> Mez: well, it depends what the bp audience is; for desktops, it's probably alright, but for servers you can get screwed
<sabdfl> maybe we could have an auto-built repo, and a migrated-from-autobuilt-by-hand-cos-it's-solid repo
<mako> pitti: it's mostly desktop applications
<mako> in any case
<Mez> pitti: near enough everything that is backported are desktop apps
<Amaranth> desktop apps and utilities, it looks like
<ogra> sabdfl, grumpy auto security ?
<mako> i'd like to sort of help kassetra with the notes by putting together a list of concerns and limitations of backports now
<pitti> .... apart from samba, yes
<mako> if you'll let me steer conversation in that way
<mako> we've done a bit of that already
<\sh> pitti: if we were talking about servers they won't have 1.2TB per month bandwisth on one server ;)
<mako> but i think it will be helpful to sort of establish the problems briefly before we establish thes olutions
<Amaranth> mako: good idea
<mako> there are a number of classes of issues out there
<Amaranth> perhaps we should debunk the myths about backports at the same time?
<mako> i've roughly divied it into integration with the largest project issues, qa issues, communication issues and others
<sabdfl> if this can fit into our existing plans (which we can stretch a little to accommodate the backports team) then we can provide servers and bandwidth
<mako> Amaranth: i'm not entireliy sure what that is
<ogra> Amaranth, myths ?
<sabdfl> JohnDong: where are you based?
<mdz> sabdfl: we'd want to semi-automate it, I think
<kassetra> sabdfl: he's in Michigan, US.
<mako> Amaranth: if you want to do that, and you think it's the correct time to do it, why don't you go ahead and do that
<tseng|work> what if we had a list to be "auto" built
<tseng|work> from stuff JohnDong verified by hand
<Amaranth> well, most of them are cleared up now, but for example before this meeting everyone thought using backports would completely break upgrades
<tseng|work> a whitelist.
<Amaranth> but perhaps that goes along with the concerns
<mako> we can please hold off on the solutions until we've given folks a chance to identify the problems
<ogra> Amaranth, it did for the warty -> hoary part, for a lot of people
<sabdfl> sorry mako :-)
<mdz> sabdfl: have a human decide when something should be backported, and the system handles the rest
<mako> not everybody shares the same concerns here.. or even knows what other people's concerns are :)
<mako> we all know what our own concerns are :)
<Amaranth> yeah, let's go through concerns for now
<Mez> ogra, yes it did, which is when John put in the work to make sure that didnt happen in for futre upgrades
<mako> Amaranth: go ahead, dispell some myths
<Amaranth> mako: I'm not a bp dev, the main one I know of is the upgrading. It was true before, doesn't seem to be now. Anyway, I think it goes along with the concerns.
<ogra> Mez, how can he make it sure now, breezy doesnt even exist as it will when the upgrade will happen
<Amaranth> mako: If a concern isn't warranted, the bp devs can say so and explain why.
<\sh> mako: I'm thinking only about the users not the devs...what impact will it has, when backports are not there, and the users get p*ssed off why they don't get a ff 8.0 at the same day as it is released
<ogra> Mez, we transition half of the world currently
<Mez> ogra: John explained it earlier
<mako> \sh: i think we've already established taht backports are desired by many people
<mako> people want a stable system with a brand new FF or something
<mako> lots of people
<Ryantroy> tons of people
<tseng|work> mako: most of my concernts are out of line with everyone elses and we came to a conclusion out-of-band
<Amaranth> every regular user, it seems :)
<Mez> the ~ operator makes for example package-1.0.0~ubp1 older than package-1.0.0, so it will upgrade properly
<ogra> Mez, i saw it, i'm not confident since all library names for c++ stuff changes still for example
<mako> tseng|work: shouldn't keep you from saying it
<herve> how did you measure the "tons of people"?
<mako> herve: 24k/week
<ogra> Mez, the ~ doesnt apply if a name changed
<\sh> mako: yeah, but because of this, i'm thinking about this issue...for main, i'm quite concerned, for universe i would say: ok, one new version compiled against the libs of ubuntu hoary/breezy/breezy+1 could be ok
<Amaranth> herve: using 1.2TB/month should be a useful measure
<Mez> ogra, which is where John tracks things like this and makes meta-packages to aid the transition
<kassetra> mako: I myself requested a backport for an application that had a massive spec change.
<ogra> Mez, since its a totally different binary package then
<Ryantroy> herve: before we had mirrors the main server was pushing a solid 10mbit pipe daily 24x7
<tseng|work> makoL just basically mono is too large/complex to be backported by someone who hasnt worked with the packages for quite some time. its a large "stack" with interdependencies and such.
<ogra> Mez, so he's aware of the c2 names ?
<mako> tseng|work: right, i think that's a reasonable thing to bring up
<mako> tseng|work: so, your concern is in porting things like interpretors
<tseng|work> we already agreed on why he shouldnt port something this large/complex
<ogra> Mez, ... and the source changes that have to be made to a package to match them
<kassetra> tseng: yes, and we aplogize for mono.
<tseng|work> he ported the interpreter and no tthe bindings and appliactions
<\sh> i would like to see a system like kubuntus (riddell ping) update system...(as seen with 3.4.1)
<tseng|work> several things wont work, the rest works by sheer luck
<mako> i think the integration into the major project concerns were already raised in the forms of figuring out what the backpots project is
<mako> so..
<tseng|work> but its a non issue since we agreed already, I think.
<\sh> so..concentrating only on the main desktop things like kde/gnome/xfce != main
<mako> in terms of concerns, i've got some things on the wiki
<kassetra> \sh: we're more similar to fedora's "rolling backports"
<Riddell> the kubuntu system is popular (pretty well expected) but not perfect
<Mez> ogra: you have to rememebr mnost of these are desktop apps, and will rarely change package name :D if they do, it's are, and a meta-package can be made
<kassetra> Also, I have added the backport package list to the wiki.
<\sh> kassetra: lets talk about something else then fedora...
<mako> basically, there's a percieved difficulty in providing QA for these packages
<ogra> Mez, i'm not upset or something, but we (MOTU) and your group should vlerly work closer together to make sure that works
<Mez> ogra, I'm not part of any group ;) just a bp supporter
<ogra> Mez, the libs _below_ the desktop packages changed their names....
<Mez> and isnt that the aim of this meeting
<Amaranth> ogra: when the desktop package upgrades to breeze i don't see how that would be a problem
<Amaranth> err, breezy
<mako> alright
<Mez> as amaranth says, when it upgrades to breezy, it will use the dependency list of the new package witht eh new names
<ogra> Amaranth, the dependencys dont match
<kassetra> mako: I think that the QA questions stem from users talking with developers instead of John about the backports, correct?
<Mez> It's  for breezy devs to make sure that works ;)
<mako> right
<philipacamaniac> \sh: what do you like specifically about the kubuntu update system?
<siretart> Amaranth: right now, uploads for C++ application are restricted. as soon as this restriction is removed, backporting them will get more challenging.
<mdz> kassetra: yes, it's very awkward to have so much parallel infrastructure for QA
<Amaranth> ogra: the breezy package will get used over the backports one, so the dependencies will be updated
<ogra> Amaranth, all backports might break once in a while while we transition ther architecture below
<\sh> philipacamaniac: they're conform with the system...no breakage of the system 
<mdz> kassetra: it's frustrating for developers to receive bug reports from backports users
<mako> kassetra: well, there is this issue that people want to be able to install a single package and still get support from the ubuntu community
<mako> but they now have a system that is not pure ubuntu
<mako> and not even *known* ubuntu
<Amaranth> siretart: that is true
<philipacamaniac> \sh: That's because Riddell made them... If MOTU was in charge of backports, then...
<Amaranth> mako: that's the same problem with ubuntuguide telling people to use marillat
<kassetra> mdz: we're working on ways of making sure users know that backports are only supported by the backports team.
<\sh> philipacamaniac: it doesn't have to do with motu
<mako> Amaranth: that is a problem, and it's been raised with the author
<\sh> or riddell
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, mako the docteam is working with the author on that
<\sh> (that was luck ;))
<ogra> kassetra, a package where the changes are not reviewed by at least 3 other devs cant even enter universe currently, i'd like to see such a QA in the backpors too....
<mako> do people have any other comments or additions to the list of limiations that we had collected before
<kassetra> ogra: typically john doesn't make a change to anything except the version number.
<mako> kassetra: there *is* less overview and qa for backports than there is for universe now
<mako> kassetra: introducign large amounts of new code into a system is a major change
<ogra> kassetra, how do i know, i cant see the source
<mako> ogra: that's another issue
<ogra> mako, yes
<mako> ogra: JohnDong has said these are almost always clean rebuilds from breezy and there's no reason to doubt that
<kassetra> ok, mako: we use breezy sources - so whatever qa and overview breezy sources use, we benefit from that as well.
<mdz> kassetra: what about the atypical cases?  at least firefox falls into that category
<mako> kassetra: but that is the point that mabye you don't realize.. that code is *development* code
<mdz> building with a different toolchain is a major divergence
<kassetra> mako: no, I do understand, exactly.
<Mez> ogra: assuming that ubuntu started mirroring backports etc etc, then John owuld be able to upload the sources aswell...
<ogra> mako, sorry but he also said he didnt backport libs... 
<ogra> Mez, ok :)
<kassetra> ogra: exactly.
<Mez> but, at the moment, he does have the bandwidth to handle it :D
<ogra> mako, and his package list is full of libs
<mako> kassetra: introducing a huge ball of development code into a stable system is a major change and makes the entire system less reliable and more difficult to support
<mdz> ogra: there are pretty few libraries in hoary-backports
<ogra> mdz, i only look at the list he mailed
<kassetra> mako: ok, we're not talking backporting libraries or any multi-level applications.
<Amaranth> if you say no backports for things in main then the main reason for having the backports is gone (firefox and gaim)
<mdz> perhaps there are more in warty-backports; I didn't look at his list
<mako> Amaranth: dude, don't jump to the end of the agenda
<Amaranth> mako: sorry
<Amaranth> mako: the agenda seems to have fallen apart...
<mako> Amaranth: well, don't make it worse
<Mez> where in the agenda are we?
<Mez> ish
<mako> we're in the problems issues
<ogra> mdz, 68 libs according to: grep ^lib |wc -l
<\sh> Amaranth: i was my statement, just because, as I understand, "main" is actively supported
<mako> right above proposals
<Amaranth> ok
<Amaranth> the only concerns i have are that more and more things are going to have to be changed to make breezy things run on hoary after the transition finishes
<kassetra> mako: typically we don't introduce items that aren't already compatible with the OS and system-relevant libraries.
<JohnDong> ok, I'm back guys.....
<kassetra> ogra: please take a look at those "libraries" first.
<mako> kassetra: nobody is accusing anybody of introducing maintainability problems intentionally
<mako> JohnDong: great :)
<Amaranth> good, now we can get back on track :)
* Mez still cant see wher about in the agenda we are (I'm just asking about how far through we are and how long this si going to a;lst
<JohnDong> so I read a bit about "libraries"?
<kassetra> John - in the list of items you have backported.
<kassetra> We're actually talking about qa.
<mako> Mez: we're talking about issues and concerns that people have with backports
<mdz> ogra: 10 of those are from wine
<Amaranth> Mez: Probably another hour.
<mako> Mez: right, and qa in particularly
<mako> Amaranth: i think so
<ogra> kassetra, libpam-smbpass, libstdc++6, libsmbclient, libmyth etc
<Mez> ok
<mdz> ogra: that also counts runtime and devel as 2
<Mez> well I'm going to have to go ;) sorry
<JohnDong> most of them are from wine or gcc4 or mythtv
<mako> Mez: alright
<Mez> and if someone can send me alog to mezzle@gmail.com it'd be appreciated
<mako> Mez: it will be published online
<Mez> ah, kk
<Mez> thx
<linuxboy> where?
<Amaranth> JohnDong: I'm still not sure why gcc4 was backported.
<mdz> JohnDong: what do you do about packages which depend on the libraries for which you are providing updated versions?
<kassetra> ogra: we're not talking about libgtk2 or so.
<mdz> JohnDong: do you rebuild them, or do people simply use the versions in hoary?
<ogra> kassetra, nope...
<JohnDong> mdz: there is usually no ABI change
<JohnDong> like Samba...
<JohnDong> Fedora bumps up samba like crazy
<JohnDong> they started with 3.0.0 and made it up to at least 3.0.12
<mdz> JohnDong: well, there certainly is with mythtv, eg
<JohnDong> and they don't "rebuild"
<mdz> with every release
<JohnDong> mythtv in Hoary is pretty broken up
<\sh> JohnDong: fedora is something else...do u know how redhat is working in the moment?
<JohnDong> \sh: It doesn't matter; their update model works
<\sh> JohnDong: yes, for them
<mdz> JohnDong: what is their model?
<titus`> linuxboy, http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<JohnDong> mdz: provide rolling updates for some packages and stable version backports for others
<JohnDong> mdz: i.e. rolling Firefox, fixed Apache
<mdz> JohnDong: rolling updates meaning what?
<\sh> JohnDong: but u won't see HP taking fedora as laptop distri...they would use RedHat enterprise or advanced...so redhat is picking the diamonds out of fedora
<Amaranth> basically what the backports do
<JohnDong> Gentoo-style introduce new versions
<\sh> and not the pees
<JohnDong> \sh: Am I asking for HP to include Backports?
<JohnDong> that's not the point
<mdz> JohnDong: meaning they track the same versions which are in their development tree?
<JohnDong> all I'm saying is that backports works
<mdz> JohnDong: or something else?
<JohnDong> mdz: yes
<mako> \sh: we've established that there is demand and that it's filling a need
<JohnDong> they take rawhide builds and rebuild them for stable
<mdz> JohnDong: so if firefox breaks in rawhide, it's broken for backports users too?
<\sh> JohnDong: it is the point..this distribution is actively support not only by the community...and fedora is only supported by the community..redhat wont give u any chance to ask for fedora support
<JohnDong> mdz: not really....
<mdz> JohnDong: I assume the backports are opt-in, then?
<JohnDong> \sh: correct
<JohnDong> err
<JohnDong> mdz: correct
<JohnDong> sh: I'm not asking for Canonical to support backports
<JohnDong> mdz: Backports is perfectly optional. I don't force anyone to use it :)
<Amaranth> JohnDong: Your users are though.
<mako> JohnDong: you don't have to.. we've already established that it happens
<JohnDong> Amaranth, what can I do about that?
<Amaranth> JohnDong: I think he meant fedora's backports.
<kassetra> Amaranth: only when they don't listen to us first.
<\sh> JohnDong: but the users are asking not the backports support channels..they want to have also support on the official lists or channels 
<mako> JohnDong: that's why we're talking about it now
<mdz> look, we're not here to criticize backports.  I don't think that JohnDong is doing anything wrong, on the contrary, backports clearly provide a valuable service to the community
<JohnDong> thanks.
<mdz> and we're here to discuss how we can work more closely, not whether it's a good idea
<Amaranth> yes, please don't look at it that way
<mako> mdz: Yes
<JohnDong> I agree that this support ordeal needs to be resolved
<ogra> JohnDong, but we (MOTU) would appreciate to know whats going on in your universe and even would like to help out, you must admit that the communication was not as good as it could have been in the past
<mako> alright
<mako> maybe it's time to move forward
<mako> can folks look at teh agenda and say if there are any other problems
<JohnDong> ogra: I appreciate that :)
<mako> with backports, that should be brought up here now?
<kassetra> ogra: we've been developing technologies in the forums to help out with the communication aspects between the developers and the backports.
<mako> things any solution or set of solutions should take in consideration
<mako> that (a) is not on that list or (b) has not been brought up today?
<\sh> hmmm
<JohnDong> ok, developer<->backports communications
<kassetra> mako: did you want to discuss communications?
<JohnDong> should I use the mailing list for that?
<\sh> backports as subpart of MOTU?
<mako> if we've covered this ground and everyone is confident that we know the problem, we can start plowing into solutions
<mako> \sh: that's a solution :)
<JohnDong> I've learned saying the B-word isn't a good idea on ubuntu-devel
<mdz> \sh: patience, we'll talk about solutions next ;-)
<JohnDong> \sh: I don't want backports to really be a part of MOTU....
<mako> JohnDong: in what sense?
<JohnDong> MOTU is forced upon Ubuntu users
<JohnDong> I don't want backports to be that way
<mdz> JohnDong: there's a certain amount of resentment which has built up as a result of a lack of communications
<mdz> backports is something which has grown up outside Ubuntu, and many developers (including me, until today) didn't know enough about it
<mako> JohnDong: lets stick to remaining issues/problems before we evaluate taht and other solutions
<JohnDong> mdz: I understand that. But communications isn't grouping Backports with MOTU...
<kassetra> mdz: we've opened a special forum area where devs can talk with us directly to stop the communications mishaps.
<mdz> JohnDong: I was responding to your "B-word on ubuntu-devel" statement
<kassetra> mdz: also, we're looking into tying the channels in irc into the forums as well.
<JohnDong> mdz: yeah, I've seen some of the misconceptions
<Amaranth> you have irc channels?
<\sh> JohnDong: u r not forced by your users? in a special way?
<ogra> JohnDong, i must iadmit, i'm one of the people pushing that attitude, but i'm willing to change that if i see QA, upgradeability etc as MOTU has
<mako> \sh: hold off
<JohnDong> \sh: huh?
<mako> JohnDong: you too 
<mako> we'll get to that
<mdz> JohnDong: well, consider that the first contact most of us have with backports is that we receive a bug report for a problem we can't reproduce, spend some time diagnosing, and discover that the user isn't using our packages at all
* \sh shut's up ;)
<JohnDong> mdz: yeah :)
<mdz> JohnDong: at which point everyone loses, since we don't know where to send them for support, nor how the backports community works
<mdz> and they get a RESOLVED/INVALID
<JohnDong> ok, I understand that
<mdz> I think we've made good progress in the right direction at this meeting
<JohnDong> I agree
<ogra> yep
<mdz> but of course only a subset of the developer community is represented here
<dholbach> JohnDong: MOTUs and Backport guys are both working voluntarily and both should need to meet some review criteria before uploading stuff anywhere, maybe that's why they both were mentioned in one breath. maybe we can think of processes how to make people more confident in what happens?
<mako> now that we know each other and how our communities, work, we've probably gone some of the way to making that situation slightly better
<Amaranth> is there anything backports can modify that can be used to easily tell if a user is using them? firefox UA perhaps?
<Amaranth> shit, that's a solution, never mind
<mako> mdz: we'll MAKE the others read the summary :)
<mdz> mako: well, we'll discuss what to do about it in the bit about solutions ;-)
<mdz> mako: BUSTED
* mako slaps his own wrist
<JohnDong> Amaranth: You can't mistake a backport for a regular package
<JohnDong> Amaranth: They all contain ~*ubp*
<Burgundavia> JohnDong, but the user doesn't see that when they run the icon on the desktop
<JohnDong> Burgundavia: You want me to rebrand every package? lol
<ogra> JohnDong, the user who apt-getted doesnt know that, the bugreport goes to malone anyway
<mdz> speaking of which, are we ready to move on?
<JohnDong> let's move on
<mako> ogra: bugs going to the wrong places!@
<kassetra> Burgundavia - no but there is the possibility of adding a backports icon to specific packages, in say, synaptic.
<mako> kassetra: that's a new problem
<mdz> kassetra: we had discussed it earlier already
<Burgundavia> kassetra, that would need expanded synaptic
<mdz> er
<mdz> s/kassetra/mko/
<mdz> s/mko/mako/
<JohnDong> kass: it doesn't have a Ubuntu logo beside it....
<mako> alright.. 
<kassetra> John: no, I know.
<mako> kassetra: did you want to say something else about communication problems?
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: Doable for breezy, not a solution for hoary though.
<ogra> JohnDong, all universe packages have no ubuntu logo
<mako> did someone else?
<ogra> JohnDong, you talk about 16000
<JohnDong> ogra: well, maybe that should change
<kassetra> mako: well, we've been working on ways of solving those issues, actually.
<doko> mako: require a version field to be filled and in case o a backports version, redirect the bug report
<mdz> mako: I do, but it's all solution-oriented ;-)
<mako> alright
<mako> FINE SOLUTION TIME
<JohnDong> lol
<kassetra> LOL
<JohnDong> :)
<mako> ok
<mdz> what shall we solve first?
<JohnDong> bugzilla
<mako> lets look at the proposals on the wik
<JohnDong> since everyone's in my face about that right now :)
<ogra> oh, one thing i'm very concerned about
<mako> want to talk about bugs, sure.. why not
<mako> ogra: quickly, quickly
<pitti> imho it shouldn't really be bz, maybe malone? it already supports different releaese
<pitti> releases, even
<Amaranth> yeah, malone
<JohnDong> pitti: same difference...
<mdz> pitti: yes, malone should be the target
<JohnDong> lol :D
<ogra> MOTU would love to see the manpower thats loszt in backports, there is no chance to convince you guys to become MOTUs ? JohnDong ?
<mako> JohnDong: so sabdfl has already suggested throwing you guys to malone
<JohnDong> mako: eventually, there's gonna be other 3rd party confusion in the bugs database
<pitti> JohnDong: which differences?
<mako> JohnDong: malone is ALL ABOUT third party confusion
<JohnDong> pitti:nvm :)
<kassetra> ogra: manpower isn't lost to backports, ok?  That's what people want.
<Amaranth> easy now
<ogra> kassetra, for me as MOTU it is
<JohnDong> ogra: I don't like the term "lost"... MOTU isn't backports
<philipacamaniac> malone seems to have bugs of its own that need to be ironed out
<ogra> kassetra, we are 20 ppl caring for 16000 packages ;)
<kassetra> ogra: if the goal is to provide users with packages, no, it's not.
<Amaranth> We all serve a role is making Ubuntu better for the user here.
<JohnDong> ogra: the goals are different enough that it'd cause more conflict
<dholbach> philipacamaniac: they will be, this is not part of this meeting :)
<Amaranth> How we do it isn't as important as doing it.
<ogra> JohnDong, its lost for the MOTU ;)
<ajmitch> MOTUs want all the recruits we can get :)
<ogra> yeah
<JohnDong> ogra: nothing personal... nothing against MOTU... but I don't think we share similar goals :)
<mdz> MOTU and backports are orthogonal
<kassetra> ogra, ajmitch: then you're going about it the wrong way.
<ogra> JohnDong, it was a lame try to recruit you ;)
<ajmitch> since the more MOTUs there are, the better the breezy packages will be for you to backport :)
<mako> i think it's clear that both are different solutions filling different needs
<kassetra> mako: exactly.
<mdz> but they should both be closely coordinated with core development
<mako> yes
<dholbach> yes
<mdz> MOTU is a better example than backports right now of how it should work
<kassetra> mdz: we see nothing wrong with that.  :)
<mako> they are similar in that they both work on universe packages a lot
<mako> mdz: yes
<\sh> well I would be glad to see, backport devs efford under MOTUs guidance, QA and reviewing practice...so we can improve Ubuntu 
<mako> ok.. so
<mdz> mako: hoary-backports looks like a pretty even split between main and universe
<dholbach> i think we should have *yet another* mailing list with the debdiffs sent to it, so the packages would catch more eyes
<mdz> if not biased toward main
<mako> mdz: hmm
<JohnDong> mdz: more people use stuff in main
<Amaranth> If we could get backports more integrated it could take a load of the bp devs that they could possible spend working on MOTU things? :)
<JohnDong> there's stuff in universe that I've never heard of...
<mako> JohnDong: are you comfortable moving ahead with some sort of plan for switching bug tracking to malone?
<JohnDong> mako: sure
<ogra> JohnDong, exciting, isnt it ;)
<JohnDong> mako: but I want forums integration, too :)
* ogra grins
<JohnDong> s/want/would like
<Amaranth> using malone really only works if we have single sign-on with the forums
<JohnDong> Amaranth: Exactly.
<mako> JohnDong: well, you may end up using both seperately or with some integration.. we'll see
<JohnDong> mako: that's fine. As long as if it's separate, the Ubuntu Backports forum survives :)
<mako> sabdfl, mdz: who should he talk to be working with to identify needs and such and to move forward with malone?
<mako> JohnDong: absolutely
<JohnDong> :)
<Amaranth> ideally only malone would be needed
<mdz> mako: I think we should set up a meeting between JohnDong, Ryantroy and someone on the launchpad squad
<Amaranth> file a wishlist bug for new backports, file bugs for broken backports
<Ryantroy> mdz: sounds good
<mako> mdz: yes
<JohnDong> Amaranth: yeah; but forums currently attract a bigger crowd
<mdz> to discuss the forums and launchpad
<mdz> common authentication, and perhaps some way to tie in malone
<mako> mdz, JohnDong: also, we should talk about how you work your backport packages to make sure the bugs go the right place
<Amaranth> btw, the 'launchpad' name just made sense to me for the first time :D
<mdz> sabdfl: who would be a good person on the launchpad side to participate in that?
<mako> that doesn't need to happen right now
<mako> cool.. one solution down :)
<JohnDong> mako: yeah
<mako> how about:
<mako> * Don't do backports for an unreleased version.
<mako> is that useful? possible?
<JohnDong> mako: "unreleased"... definition?
<mdz> JohnDong, ryantroy: could you guys send mail to me (mdz@ubuntu.com) so that I have your contact information?  I'll forward it on
<mako> sticking to breezy sources?
<Amaranth> I know .desktop packages have info about where bugs go and what help to use for debian things.
<Amaranth> Or at least I think they do.
<JohnDong> mdz: done
<mdz> mako: meaning that backports should be strictly from Ubuntu development releases -> Ubuntu stable releases, right?
<dholbach> Amaranth: that's for bug-buddy afaik
<JohnDong> mdz: I'm fine with that
<kassetra> JohnDong: unreleased = the version that's not released yet, like Breezy right now.
<Amaranth> yeah, for bug-buddy
<mdz> if so, that seems reasonable to me
<mdz> backports are not the right place to introduce new stuff from upstream
<mdz> it should go into our development release first
<JohnDong> ok, so reworded: only backport stuff from Breezy
<mako> JohnDong: right
<JohnDong> I know, stuff will get restricted very soon :)
<kassetra> except, Breezy won't be breezy next time.
<JohnDong> kass, we get it.
<JohnDong> :)
<kassetra> :)
<mako> also, not introducing new libraries sounds likew it could be huge
<Ryantroy> mdz: done
<mako> which is something you are trying to do already
<JohnDong> mako: yeah, we've stopped doing that altogether
<mako> but there are situations when you do introduce new libraries because of deps that could be worked around
<JohnDong> mako: it was done a bit back in Warty, but I've learned
<JohnDong> mako: If deps aren't too nasty (like new firefox libs) that's fine
<JohnDong> mako: just no gtk backports :)
<JohnDong> lol
<mako> JohnDong: in the future, it may be nicer if you work with the rest of the team in #ubuntu-devel and we can figure out to do it the Right Way
<mako> JohnDong: doko knows a few things about gcc, for example
<mdz> mako: along those lines, I'd like to step back a bit and propose a high-level solution idea
<JohnDong> mako: sure... it's just that #ubuntu-* hasn't been too welcoming in the past. I'll try again :)
<mdz> I would like for backports to become an official Ubuntu project
<ogra> mako, a fwe, lol
<ogra> few
<mako> mdz: !!!!
<JohnDong> mdz: interesting... I'd still like it to be "optional"... maybe a "recognized" project?
<ogra> JohnDong, try in -motu
<mako> JohnDong: what do you say?
<Amaranth> mdz: having ubuntu host it would resolve a few issues all at once
<mako> JohnDong: oh yes.. optional yes
<JohnDong> that'd be nice
<JohnDong> we need to work out details on that, though
<mako> JohnDong: official doesn't mean required
<mako> JohnDong: i don't use kubuntu
<mdz> JohnDong: what this would mean would be sharing our infrastructure and working closely with the development team
<mako> JohnDong: hell, i don't even have gnome installed :)
<JohnDong> mako: yeah, but kubuntu repository changes get propagated to everyone
<mdz> right, this wouldn't imply any requirement on the part of the users
<\sh> mdz: official optional ubuntu project == u can do this and that, but bound to ubuntu community rules?
<kassetra> mdz: would users still get to request items to be backported?
<mdz> kassetra: of course
<mako> kassetra: sure
<JohnDong> :)
<Amaranth> and we could work to get you guys into MOTU :)
<mdz> if the current approach is working well, then the right idea would be to try to maintain that workflow
<Mez> I just popped back and saw this
<Mez> all i can say is wewt
<mdz> but do it on top of Ubuntu proper, rather than working in a separate sandbox
<JohnDong> so does that mean I can get access to some build machines?
<JohnDong> primarily amd64
<mdz> JohnDong: it means that we would provide automatic build services
<mako> JohnDong: so..
<ogra> JohnDong, yes
<mdz> the same way that breezy works
<Mithrandir> JohnDong: if you have a key signed by a DD or a MOTU then I can provide access for you.
<JohnDong> mdz, mako: I'll need some documentation about Ubuntu's build system
<mako> from an organizational perspective, it will means that you guys become the ubuntu backports team
<ogra> JohnDong, on the buildds
<mako> and keep working on your own
<\sh> mdz: but this means, that u allow updates different from secfixes ;)
<ogra> JohnDong, join the MOTU ;)
<JohnDong> ogra: stop :)
<mdz> \sh: this is orthogonal to hoary-updates and hoary-security
<Seveas> JohnDong is MOTB, not MOTU :)
<ogra> JohnDong, we can tell you everything about the build system
<mako> if there are problems or issues within your team or between your team and others, it will ultimately be up to the tech board and the community council to sort it out
<\sh> mdz: this is what i meant in the beginning :)
<JohnDong> ogra: thanks
<JohnDong> mako: sounds great!!
<mdz> JohnDong: we can go into the implementation later, but the general idea is that we want to provide support for what you are doing, and provide for closer collaboration with the development team
<kassetra> mdz: yes, we really like the idea.  :)
<mako> JohnDong: so you'll be giving up a little bit of control, potentially, in that sense
<JohnDong> mako: I'm fine with compromising
<ogra> JohnDong, wecould have a MOTUBackports team
<mako> JohnDong: but you should be working the way you did almost all of the time
<Amaranth> that would bring us back to 'no backports form main' then
<JohnDong> ogra just doesn't give up :)
<mako> ogra: sssh :)
<Nafallo> hoary,hoary-updates,hoary-security,hoary-backports ;-)
<JohnDong> Amaranth: I was just about to bring that up
<JohnDong> lol
<ogra> JohnDong, never ;)
<mdz> Nafallo: right, that's the sort of idea we mean
<ogra> JohnDong, i'm known for agressive recruiting ;)
<mako> Nafallo: yes
* \sh nods
<JohnDong> mdz, mako: would "restricted" ever get as far as a ban on backporting stuff in main?
* \sh nods again
<ajmitch> ogra: very aggressive :)
<ogra> hehe
<JohnDong> primarily, xchat, firefox, gaim....
<mako> JohnDong: i don't think so
<JohnDong> mako: excellent :)
<mdz> JohnDong: I don't see any reason to have restrictions by section
<mdz> JohnDong: but I think we should formalize what you are already doing
<JohnDong> I'm all for working with devs
<kassetra> mako, mdz: that sounds like a winning plan then.  :)
<JohnDong> this sounds great :)
<mako> well that's great
<mdz> JohnDong: you and the community have sorted out which packages it makes sense to backport
<mako> there are a few other things to maybe try to sort first
<mako> i know we've been here a long time
<Amaranth> JohnDong: that reminds me, if i redo my gnome-menus backport, would it have a chance of being accepted? :)
* siretart wants to raise a technical question
<mako> siretart: go ahead
<siretart> I like backports the way http://backports.org provide
<JohnDong> Amaranth: I think the tech board needs to be involved in this one
<siretart> is this aproach possible for ubuntu backports, too?
<Nafallo> mdz, mako: and does that share the mirrornetwork as well?
<mdz> Nafallo: the mirrors are volunteers, it would be their decision
<JohnDong> siretart: if I figure out how pools work
<mdz> Nafallo: but I hope so, yes
<Nafallo> mdz: k
<JohnDong> siretart: I'm sure you guys know :)
<JohnDong> lol
<siretart> the advatage for users: they can decide with the apt line, which backported packages they want
<mdz> siretart: yes, this is something I wanted to discuss as well
<mdz> the granularity of backports
<JohnDong> siretart: as long as there's an "all backports" option, too.
<mdz> users generally either use the backports repository, or they don't, right?
<mdz> or do users pick and choose packages they want to upgrade?
<kassetra> mdz: pick & choose.
<JohnDong> mdz: they either use or don't use.
<JohnDong> mdz: apt-pinning is popular
<Amaranth> heh, two different answers
<JohnDong> I see more of all-or-nothing
<Mez> probably two differnt interpretations of thwe question
<JohnDong> some people do hand-pick backports
<kassetra> Yeah, I do.
<mdz> does apt-pinning work well in your environment?
<JohnDong> mdz: I've gotten excellent reports about it
<mdz> it tends to fall apart between major Debian releases, e.g.
<kassetra> mdz: yes.  :)
<mdz> where there are many complex dependency changes
<JohnDong> mdz: but I don't like the system. it's more of a workaround
<mdz> but with backports, it seems like it could work
<JohnDong> mdz: I like the Backports.org method
<mdz> what do they do?  one section per source package?
<JohnDong> mdz: are you familiar with the backports.org structure?
<mako> mdz: couldn't we just generate a load of Packages files?
<mdz> mako: in the future, perhaps, but not initially
<siretart> from what I read, nobse also plans an upload queue for DD's for backports.org. that would be awesome for us too :)
<JohnDong> mdz: virtual "sections" with single packages, plus the whole "backports " section
<JohnDong> mdz: just a bit of scripting magic
<mdz> JohnDong: as above, I think that's something we should look into down the road, but shouldn't be part of our initial roadmap for getting backports integrated with our infrastructure
<siretart> nobse == maintainer of backports.org (for those who did not know)
<mdz> it's much more complex to administer
<JohnDong> mdz: I agree. I see it for the future
<mako> excellent
<mdz> given the limitations that we've agreed on, I think this should be pretty simple
<Mez> It doesnt look that hard to do
<mdz> if I can sketch a few implementation details for a moment, to make sure we're all on the same page
<Mez> as John said - it's a bit of scripting magic
<mdz> we would create a backports repository, directly adjacent to hoary (e.g., hoary-backports)
<mako> mdz: go ahead
<ogra> which is already there)
<mdz> the backports team would decide when to backport a particular version, and would request it from the archive administrators
<mdz> this would cause the source package to be copied over, and rebuilt against hoary
<mdz> then the binaries would be published in hoary-backports
<Amaranth> so backport+patch would be totally out?
<siretart> this sounds reasonable
<mako> Amaranth: i'm sure he's going there
<Mez> mdz: wouldnt that mean barely any work exeptdeciding what to backport for the backport developers?
<mdz> Mez: it would mean that the backports team could get out of the business of building packages and maintaining an archive (which is really not much fun anyway)
<\sh> Mez:  this is a pro point of a working infrastructure and team
<JohnDong> Mez: I have autobuild scripts; the more work on quality, the better
<mdz> and concentrate on providing the best quality service
<JohnDong> mdz: absolutely
<mako> mdz: and in situations that that build fails, what is the process?
<mdz> which I think is a win both for the users and the backports team
<mdz> mako: then it should be fixed in breezy
<Mez> I wasnt questioning it... I was more, that makes life easier for them :D
<\sh> mako: as i understand they could use our infrastructure
<mdz> I think wherever possible, we should provide for backports by making breezy packages continue to build on hoary
<JohnDong> mdz: we'll need to go into the failure part again
<mdz> usually this is not difficult to do
<Amaranth> mdz: some dependencies need to be changed
<ogra> JohnDong, are your packages signed btw ?
<Amaranth> mdz: and what about backport+patch?
<JohnDong> ogra: no :(
<mdz> usually or-ed dependencies can be used
<mako> mdz: even if the fix doesn't affect the packages ability to be built against breezy?
<mdz> Amaranth: can you provide an example?
<JohnDong> ogra: I was just workin on that yesterday
<mdz> what's a situation where you need to patch?
<mako> mdz: right
<Mez> ogra - no - but they will be
<ogra> JohnDong, great :)
<JohnDong> mako: package renames
<ogra> Mez, ^^
<Amaranth> mdz: to make gnome-menus work with smeg i need to apply a small patch (~60 lines, i think) to it
<Mez> I'm too slow ogra ;)
<mdz> if the patch is necessary in order to build on hoary, it should be patched into breezy in a generic way wherever possible
<ogra> heh
<mdz> Amaranth: is that patch unsuitable for breezy for some reason?
<Amaranth> mdz: gnome-menus 2.11 is fixed
<JohnDong> mdz: it requires a gnome-menu backport :)
<JohnDong> mdz: I'm sure the tech board won't like that
<mdz> then where's the problem?
<Amaranth> mdz: not wanting to backport GNOME just for smeg?
<JohnDong> mdz: backporting a core component of GNOME probably won't be accepted warmly by you guys
<mdz> well, our archive infrastructure certainly allows for a new version to be uploaded to backports directly
<mdz> I think we would want to establish some pretty clear criteria for when we should do that, and when not
<JohnDong> mdz: back to the transition, what becomes of -staging? A testing area is still necessary
<JohnDong> mdz: would -staging go into my people.ubuntu.com repo?
<mdz> JohnDong: we could do it that way, but it probably makes more sense to have it exist within the archive infrastructure also
<mdz> I assume that you test in staging, and then move exactly the same binaries over when you're satisfied?
<mdz> this is a facility that we would like to have anyway, in order to test security updates before rolling them out
<JohnDong> mdz: ok, awesome
<Nafallo> mdz++
<siretart> .oO( setting up britney from dak for backports? ohoh... )
<mdz> but let me say, that we don't have it yet :-)
<ogra> mdz, wouldnt be necessary the MOTU way, but i'll shut up about MOTU now
<JohnDong> mdz: I just move binaries, too :)
<Amaranth> doesn't elmo need to approve some of this stuff?
<mdz> ogra: how do you mean?
<ogra> mdz, three reviews
<Kamion> ogra: reviews aren't perfect
<mdz> Amaranth: elmo has been consulted
<JohnDong> **puts ogra on a list with Gentoo mods....
<mako> mdz: what's the timeline for that functionality?
<ogra> Kamion, but better then nothing
<Kamion> ogra: I've reviewed a lot of stuff, and I know I miss stuff too often even so. Testing is better than reviews.
<Amaranth> ogra: but not better than -staging
<ogra> JohnDong, dont do that ;)
<mdz> mako: the outline that I've described, getting hoary-backports set up, should be less than a week's work
<mdz> staging is a bigger project that I haven't really thought enough about yet
<mako> mdz: including building the functionality to do the staging area?
<mako> JohnDong: are you happy doing a hack for the staging stuff in the meantime?
<mdz> mako: that requires some consultation with people who are not here
<JohnDong> mako: sure :)
<JohnDong> Does this mean Breezy will ship with hoary-backports lines commented out, just like how universe is shipped?
<mako> alright.. seems reasonable
<mdz> but I think it is the right idea for us to integrate the staging functionality as well, because it is useful beyond just backports
<\sh> johndong: staging implies only install issues with the packages or also functionality issues of the backported software?
<JohnDong> That way, Synaptic will have a checkbox
<mdz> JohnDong: that sounds reasonable
<JohnDong> sh: it can be either
<mako> JohnDong: sure, seems possible
<JohnDong> YAY
<Amaranth> \sh: functionality
<LarstiQ> does hoary-backports make sense for breezy?
<JohnDong> it can be either... sometimes renames cause packaging issues
<mdz> in fact we might decide that hoary-updates should be identical to backports, though that's less clear
<Amaranth> LarstiQ: obviously it'd be breezy
<mako> LarstiQ: no
<mdz> it would certainly need to change from opt-out to opt-in
<LarstiQ> right, just checking
<mako> LarstiQ: i mean, we're talking about packages that are already in breezy :)
<mdz> but I don't think we need quite all of -security, -updates, -backports and -backports-staging
<JohnDong> mdz: awesome :)
<mdz> there is a lot of overlap there
<LarstiQ> mako: I could see a use, but yes :)
<mdz> and it would be a lot to maintain
<JohnDong> mdz: correct. -updates is barely used at all...
<JohnDong> mdz: maybe like the Fedora and Extras model?
<Kamion> does seem kind of overkill for a default install
<mdz> JohnDong: I'm not very familiar with that
<Kamion> JohnDong: when -updates is needed, it's needed, though
<mdz> Kamion: especially given that timeout bug ;-)
<JohnDong> mdz: Fedora maintains a core updates repo, and Extras is like a Backports
<Kamion> mdz: yeah ...
<JohnDong> so it's like having all 4 repos there.... :(
<mdz> Kamion: could you file that in bugzilla for mvo if you haven't already?
<JohnDong> mdz: I don't think there's "overlap", but just bad naming
<mdz> JohnDong: well, I think we should do some thinking about how many different use cases there really are
<JohnDong> mdz: 'hoary-updates' can be renamed to mean more of major bugfixes
<Kamion> mdz: he's cced on the relevant bug, and I've included an explanation
<mdz> how many people really want security but NOT critical bugfixes, for example
<Kamion> mdz: (I'm going to work around it, so it's still assigned to me)
<mdz> Kamion: ok, my bugzilla-fu is way behind these days
<elmo> mdz: me :P
<JohnDong> mdz: I don't know, lol :). hoary-updates isn't even that well publicized
<Kamion> I think people want to be able to distinguish between security and critical bugfixes, rather than having them all jammed together
<mako> alright.. lets move on :)
<mdz> elmo: oh, hello ;-)
<Kamion> because the criteria for the latter is a lot less well-defined
<ogra> mdz, so how do we sort the missing gpg key issues, the backports guys need a valid gpg key or not ?
<mdz> elmo: how do you feel about having 5 suites for each release, though?
<JohnDong> mdz: won't Ubuntu provide a signing key? like how hoary-* is handled
<ogra> JohnDong, you need to sign the source
<mako> JohnDong: you will need a key to upload
<JohnDong> ogra: aha, I see
<mdz> elmo: do you have any initial ideas about the best way to implement some sort of staging facility?
<ogra> JohnDong, with your own key
* Amaranth has a feeling this whole things will stall on keysigning
<elmo> mdz: it's kind of unfortunate in that, per-suite mirroring is annoying (i.e. can't be done with just rsync)
<mdz> JohnDong: yes
<JohnDong> mako: I'll work on trying to keep a gpg key :)
<elmo> would it be 14Gb for us too?  if so, that's not an insubstantial hit
<ogra> Amaranth, thats why i brought it up
<mdz> elmo: we're expecting these suites to be quite small
<mako> JohnDong: create one, sign with someone in the strongly connected set, it should be no problem
<JohnDong> elmo: no!
<mdz> hoary-backports/i386 is ~250M currently
<JohnDong> elmo: the actual binaries are small
<elmo> (where did the 14Gb figure come from?)
<mdz> elmo: of course, we'd need to copy the source as well
<Amaranth> JohnDong: where do you live?
<JohnDong> elmo: Subversion metadata
* \sh 's changing servers...lagging
<JohnDong> Amaranth: Michigan
<Amaranth> city?
<mako> subversion!
<mdz> elmo: and also that figure includes warty backports
<elmo> JohnDong: bong
<Kamion> Amaranth: even an unsigned key is better than no key at all, although it's still not good
<JohnDong> mako: we're currently using subversion
<mako> JohnDong: ok
<Amaranth> if an unsigned key works for the backports i can work on them :D
<Kamion> Amaranth: at least you can tell that this set of uploads are all by the same person
<elmo> mdz: if it's small, then I don't have any real/valid objections
<elmo> from an archive/mirror POV
<mako> if you don't have a signed key, talk to me about getting it signed
<elmo> mako: will-sign-keys-for-food?
<Kamion> I'm not sure if we'll be accepting unsigned keys, though; TBH I hope not, I want signed-key verification of anything an unsigned key does ...
<mako> after the meeting
<mako> i don't think we will either
<mdz> getting your key signed is not that hard
<mako> which is why you should talk to me abou getting it signed
<JohnDong> mako: talk about keys via e-mail?
<mdz> and it's a good excuse to meet people
<Amaranth> mdz: sure it is
<mako> JohnDong: yes
<ogra> hehe
<mako> so..
<mdz> Amaranth: we already have a facility in place for people who can't arrange a face-to-face meeting
<JohnDong> mdz: I'm a junior in high school... not too much travel goes by me :)
<mako> since we've passed teh two hour mark
<mako> lets try to wrap this up
<mako> mdz: do you have more impelementation details you want to go over?
<Amaranth> mdz: i have no one who can sign me within 100 miles and i have no transportation
<mako> Amaranth: then talk to me after the meeting
<Amaranth> mako: ok
<mako> please, lets no talk about keys right now
<JohnDong> lol
<ogra> mako travels for keys ;)
<JohnDong> who's gonna update the wiki page with our progress?
* Nafallo will get signed in july ;-)
<mdz> mako: no, I think that's too much already
<mako> JohnDong: kassetra 
<mako> ok then
<JohnDong> ok
<mako> ANY OTHER SUGGESTIONS
<JohnDong> key signing?
<mako> proposals, things of that sort
<JohnDong> j/k :)
* mako thwaps JohnDong 
<ogra> heh
<JohnDong> lol
<\sh> ok...we will make backports official
<Ryantroy> All I have to leave..  this meeting looks to be going well.. thanks all..
<mako> Ryantroy: cool thanks for showing up
<mako> JohnDong: you know what is going to be problematic
* philipacamaniac would like to raise the issue of other popular 3rd party backports (such as KDE 3.4.1 Hoary packages at kubuntu.org)
<mako> JohnDong: in terms of libs, etc
<ogra> Ryantroy, all of them go well ;)
<Ryantroy> mako: always! I wish i had more time in the day :) 
<ogra> Ryantroy, at least in ubuntu ;)
<mako> JohnDong: i think if you run those things by people in #u-devel to ask for advice, etc
<mako> JohnDong: it might be good
<mako> JohnDong: i apologize that it's not been ultra welcoming in the past but you know moe people now
<mako> JohnDong: and i suspect it will be better
<siretart> will hoary-backports become a new upload target? Who will be allowed to upload there?
<JohnDong> mako: thanks. I'll consult you guys much more than before :)
<\sh> philipacamaniac: as I understand it, it applies to all packages in ubuntu warty/hoary/etc.
<mako> man, that mdz guy was annoying
<mdz> JohnDong: it will get a lot easier to work with the deveolper community when this stuff is official, I expect
<mako> oh wait.. he's back
<mdz> visibility helps a lot
<JohnDong> mdz: thanks :)
<mdz> taonheutnsao xchat and its keyboard shortcuts
<JohnDong> lol
<kassetra> *snicker*
<philipacamaniac> \sh: but KDE is such a big metapackage - it couldn't possibly be "officially" backported, could it?
<ogra> mdz, get rid of dvorak ;)
<mdz> ogra: that's unrelated :-P
<JohnDong> umm, I don't plan to backport KDE...
<\sh> philipacamaniac: riddell took the same sources as in breezy 
<mako> ok
<JohnDong> that's just as unholy as doing so with GNOME 
<JohnDong> lol
<ogra> JohnDong, to late
<JohnDong> :)
<mako> before we end
<\sh> JohnDong: no..this is what the people want
<ogra> JohnDong, now aou have _all_ backports
<mako> JohnDong: want to take a look at the "When to backport, when not to" list 
<mako> and short of "don't do backports to main" do you have any other objectsions?
<mako> or does that list looks like a good set of rules to on
<JohnDong> *looking*
* Amaranth doesn't agree with 'don't do backports to main'
<mako> in situations where you think you might be crossing one of those lines or need to, talking to the rest of the team will be helpful
<JohnDong> where is this list?
<mako> Amaranth: we've established that this was not realistic
<JohnDong> am I being blind here?
<mako> JohnDong: on the agenda
<\sh> mako: talking about "main"...so, there r no official backports for main, or only != libs*
<Amaranth> mako: ok, just making sure
<\-> but what about pakages that are not in breezy and that the comunity would like to have packaged? wil those eventually be added to breezy first and then be backported?
<JohnDong> I see it
<\sh> \-: to universe first.
<mako> \-: yes
<\sh> \-: for those packages we have policies
<JohnDong> ok, I'm fine with it
<JohnDong> minus the part about main, of course!
<ogra> \-, please leave them to MOTU
<JohnDong> lol
<mako> \-: no reason we can't do that.. if it's not in breezy, it can't be backported
<mdz> \-: yes, absolutely
<kassetra> other than the main/backport moratorium.
<mako> and if shouldn't even be in multiverse, you shouldn't install it :)
<ogra> \-, but no objections on backporting them later ;)
<mako> ogra: yes
<mdz> if people working on backports are interested in adding new stuff as well, they should absolutely join MOTU
<JohnDong> yeah
<mako> JohnDong: excllent
<JohnDong> backports will definitely pull on MOTU work :)
<mdz> I'm sure ogra won't argue with that ;-)
<JohnDong> lol
<mako> ANY OTHER BUSINESS?
<ogra> yep :)
<JohnDong> we gotta make ogra happy
<JohnDong> lol
<mako> ....
<ogra> yay
<dholbach> :)
<\-> ogra, i would be all for it, if only universe would not be freezed
<mako> have we sufficiently killed this issue?
<siretart> sorry if I got something wrong, but will hoary-backports become a new upload target? Who will be allowed to upload there?
<Nafallo> dholbach, ogra: congrats ;-)
<kassetra> mako: killed, and then grilled it.
<ogra> \-, why  you can backport ;)
<dholbach> universe freezed?
<mako> KILLED GRILLED... GOING ONCE
<mdz> siretart: we will have that capability, but we should discuss how and when it should be used
<JohnDong> keys....
<mako> GOING TWICE
<mako> JohnDong: FU
<JohnDong> keys....
<JohnDong> lol
<JohnDong> LOL
<Mez> lol
<kassetra> LMFAO
<mako> this meeting is declared over half an hour ago
<mako> :)
<mdz> mako: one more thing
<ogra> kassetra, F ?
<mako> damnit
<mako> mdz: 
<JohnDong> lol
<mdz> seriously
<mako> mdz: ok go
<mdz> Ubuntu membership
<siretart> mdz: in this or an later meeting?
<mako> right
<mdz> did we already talk about that?
<mako> mdz: we solved half of this problem already
<kassetra> ogra: my F'ing tushie off.
<\sh> no
<mako> JohnDong and kassetra are already members so is ryan
<ogra> kassetra, *g*
<mdz> mako: oh, I didn't realize
<JohnDong> :)
<Amaranth> they are?
<mdz> excellent :-)
<mako> last meeting
<JohnDong> BTW, that member list on the wiki needs a bit of updating :)
<mako> i didn't send the minutes yet :)
<mako> so that's partially my fault
<kassetra> heh.
<Amaranth> that just leaves me then, sitting as potential backporter/motuer for 6 months now
<mdz> anyone who is working on backports should obviously become an Ubuntu member
<mako> yes, absolutely
<mako> and they need to get their keys signed
<mdz> that's about all I wanted to say
<dholbach> are they on UbuntuMembers yet?
* mako holds his mouth
<sabdfl> wow
<mako> OVER
<JohnDong> amd64 arch
<JohnDong> oh well, we'll talk later
<mako> alright.. thanks for showing up everybody
<mdke> hows the meeting going?
<kassetra> mako: mine *is* signed!  :)
<mdke> omg finished surely not
<mdz> mdke: over :-)
<mako> i think this went longer and more successfully than i suspected
<dholbach> thanks mako
<JohnDong> yeah
<mdke> cool
<dholbach> absolutely
<mdz> thanks to everyone who participated
<mako> kassetra: thank you SO MUCH for helping write this up
<JohnDong> great job conducting the meeting, mako
<ogra> JohnDong, you can do amd64 on the buildds ;)
<mako> kassetra:  i can help go over this
<Kinnison> Will there be a summary posted somewhere?
<JohnDong> ogra: yeah, I remembered that :)
<mdz> Kinnison: yes
<mako> Kinnison: yes.. kassetra will send it -news :)
<Nafallo> JohnDong: you should let ogra brief you on the buildingsystem ;-)
<Kinnison> I guess I should sub to -news
<mako> thanks everybody
<Kinnison> or could someone fwd it to me when it happens
<ogra> Nafallo, but not tonight anymore ;)
<mako> Kinnison: subscribe
<mako> :)
<mako> ok.. i'm going to the park
<Amaranth> hey!
<Nafallo> ogra: baah, don't act so lazy ;-)
<JohnDong> awesome
<mako> but i will talk about keys AFTER the park
<Amaranth> mako: what about the key thing?
<ajmitch> bye mako :)
<JohnDong> we'lll all be in contact :)
<Amaranth> ok
<Amaranth> ping me
<Amaranth> i need to go clean house a bit anyway
<ogra> Nafallo, its 23:47 here ....
<mako> Amaranth: will do
<Nafallo> mako: what keys? ;-)
<Nafallo> ogra: we're in the same timezone ;-)
<mdke> mako, yeah ping me too on the keys when you are back
* mako takes to the keys to his appartment and leaves
<JohnDong> is he gone yet?
<JohnDong> hmm
<ogra> JohnDong, you find me in #ubuntu-devel and #ubuntu-motu, nearly every day
<JohnDong> now to talk behind his back...
<JohnDong> lol
<mdke> JohnDong, ogra is on irc 24 hours a day
<JohnDong> ogra: sure; we'll be in contact
<mdke> JohnDong, sometimes more
<Nafallo> JohnDong: and night ;-) (finding ogra)
<ogra> yep, great :)
<kassetra> ok, I will be summarizing later tonight, after my regular work day is over.
<JohnDong> k
<ajmitch> he's always recruiting, so if you ever reconsider MOTU... :)
<JohnDong> LOL
<ogra> JohnDong, and ogra@ubuntu.com :)
<JohnDong> alright, I gotta leave too
<JohnDong> great seeing everyone
<ogra> yep :=
<ogra> :)
<kassetra> man.  I have a bunch of work to do now.
<mdke> kassetra, maybe you can delegate a bit?
<kassetra> LOL no, I meant to summarize this meeting.  :)
<mdke> me too
<kassetra> LOL well, if you have any suggestions, I'm all ears.
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> well if you can't find anyone to help, then just take as much time as you need
<kassetra> k.  :)
<mdke> it doesn't have to be done for tomorrow
<kassetra> oh... that's a relief.
<kassetra> I will get it soon, but I have my regular job meetings for today too.
<mdke> kassetra, LOL people can't force you to do stuff you haven't got time to do
<kassetra> LMFAO
<kassetra> I know.  I just wanted to be a good reporter.  :)
<\-> thanks kassetra for summarizing all this stuff.
<mdke> you'll find that people will appreciate whatever you do
<mdke> or they should anyhow
<kassetra> LOL well, it's my first time doing this for this meeting, but I shouldn't be too terribly bad at it.
<{Seb}> hi all
<{Seb}> what happeneded in the backports meeting?
<dholbach> there will be a wrapup on ubuntu-news <at> lists.ubuntu.org
<{Seb}> can you basically tell me what happened?
<kassetra> backports is going to be officially folded into the development community.  :)
<{Seb}> good good
<{Seb}> and?
<mdke> {Seb}, you can find the log at people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs
<{Seb}> ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-09
<mdke> \-, sei italiano?
<\-> si
<mdke> <-- #ubuntu-it
<{Seb}> god! what a conv.!
<\-> yeah.
<\-> i hope that "no backports from main" does not include firefox, gaim and all the other cool stuff :)
<ogra> \-, i think we agreed on "no libs in main"
<ogra> \-, wait on kassetras summary
<{Seb}> will firefox still be there?
<{Seb}> and mono?
<\-> no. mono not.
<ogra> {Seb}, mono would be silly 
<{Seb}> why?
<ogra> {Seb}, it is in main with the breezy release
<{Seb}> breezy is really broken though
<ogra> {Seb}, "release"
<ogra> (in oct)
<{Seb}> what would you suggest i do?
<{Seb}> beagle dev.
<{Seb}> likes ubuntu
<{Seb}> but mono backport is being cut off
<{Seb}> breezy is too broken
<ogra> {Seb}, there will be a mono backport done by the mon developer
<ogra> {Seb}, ...to hoary
<{Seb}> didn't you just say there wouldn't be one
<{Seb}> :-)
<{Seb}> night all
<ogra> wait for it... it wont be official
<\-> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBackports
<\->  No Backports for packages in main!
<\->  No changes to language interpreters (python, mono). These could affect existing packages in unexpected ways.
<ogra> \-, thats the agend
<ogra> a
<ogra> not the summary
<\-> yes, but they agreed on that. no?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> wait for the summary, i might be wrong, but i think we agreed on "no libs in main"
<\sh> right
<\sh> off too bed..night ladies and gentlemen
<Mez> can anyone help me with using the wiki - /query please
<Amaranth> what's the problem?
<mako> kassetra: if you want help, i'm around too
<mako> kassetra: i often take a week to do a summary
<mako> kassetra: usually, the last thing i want to do after a long meeting is read the log ofa  long meeting :)
<kassetra> LOL so true.
<kassetra> And I've now had *two* very long meetings today.
<{Seb}> hey all
<{Seb}> what happened in the backports meeting?
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-06-11
<davro>  auto-identify
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-05
<highvoltage> @schedule Johannesburg
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Africa/Johannesburg: 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 06 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<Klaidas> @schedule Vilnius
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 06 Jun 23:00: Technical Board | 07 Jun 00:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 16:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 23:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu
<shawarma> @schedule Copenhagen
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu
<nealmcb> @schedule denver
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Denver: 06 Jun 14:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 15:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 07:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 06:00: Edubuntu
<zul> @schedule Montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 06 Jun 16:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 07 Jun 06:00: Technical Board | 07 Jun 07:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 23:30: Xubuntu | 08 Jun 06:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu
<Hobbsee> excellent.
<lucasvo> @scheedule Zurich
<lucasvo> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu
<jjesse> @agenda Detroit
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> schedule Retrieve the date/time of scheduled meetings in a specific timezone
<highvoltage> esh... getting to sleepy to watch the tb meeting tonight. i'll read it on the logs tomorrow :) goodnight.
<Seveas> @reload Webcal
<Ubugtu> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
<Seveas> @schedule
<highvoltage> geez, typing fridge.com/event is a scary mistake
<Seveas> ROFL
<Seveas> @schedule
<highvoltage> hmmm.. wasn't the technical board meeting supposed to start 38 minutes ago?
<Seveas> yeah
<Seveas> ubugtu is failing a bit
<highvoltage> has it been canceled?
<Seveas> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 06 Jun 20:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 21:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 13:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00: Edubuntu
<Seveas> @topic
<Seveas> ah, june *6*
<Seveas> so it's tomorrow
<Seveas> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: June 05 2006, 20:42:21 - Next meeting: Technical Board  in 23 hours
<Seveas> see 
<highvoltage> heh. today was just a weird day for me. i'll be there tomorrow then :)
<imbrandon> dont feel bad i was here for the kubuntu meeting that looks like i'm a day early too ;)
<cached> seveas
<cached> what was the ban for?
<cached> if i really wanted to flood i would use proxies, so now that only makes it inconvenient for a flooder
<cached> but i dont flood anyways
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-06
<simira> @schedule Oslo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Oslo: 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu
<ealden> @schedule Manila
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Manila: 07 Jun 04:00: Technical Board | 07 Jun 05:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 21:30: Xubuntu | 08 Jun 04:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu
<jsgotangco> doh
<imbrandon> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 06 Jun 15:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 16:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 07:00: Edubuntu
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: going to attend the TB meeting?
<jsgotangco> 4AM?
<jsgotangco> heh
<ajmitch> yeah
<siretart> ajmitch: I will be about 30min late tonight, could you perhaps mdz tell to delay my backports point until then?
<ajmitch> siretart: if I'm up in time for the meeting
<ajmitch> it's at 8AM for me, I'll try & make it
<siretart> ajmitch: oh, then never mind
<siretart> ah, he is here, I can tell him myself :P
<siretart> mdz: re the point I set on the agenda: I won't make it on time, I'll be late about 30mins, but I will definitly try to attend. It would be great if this point could be a bit delayed.
<GNAM> @schedule ROme
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu
<Klaidas> schedule VIlnius
<Klaidas> oops
<Klaidas> @schedule VIlnius
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 06 Jun 23:00: Technical Board | 07 Jun 00:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 16:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 23:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu
* jenda wonders if lithuanian also uses 
<Klaidas> they do :)
<jenda> @schedule prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu
<jenda> Ah... beautiful.
<zul> @scehdule Montreal
<zul> @schedule Montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 06 Jun 16:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu
<lucas> @schedule Europe/Paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu
<bluefoxicy> @schedule US/EDT
<bluefoxicy> @schedule US/Eastern
<Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Eastern: 06 Jun 16:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu
<bluefoxicy> what's the technical board for again?
<ogra> technical discussion :)
* highvoltage is staying up for tonight's meeting
<rikai> that makes a crazt anount of sense. ;)
<imbrandon> @schedule US/Central kubuntu
<imbrandon> @schedule US/Central
<Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Central: 06 Jun 15:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 16:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 07:00: Edubuntu
<Klaidas> @schedule Vilnius
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 06 Jun 23:00: Technical Board | 07 Jun 00:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 16:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 23:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu
<Seveas> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: June 06 2006, 18:59:51 - Next meeting: Technical Board  in 1 hours
<Klaidas> ok, I have some time to take a shower
<BlueT_> @schedule taipei
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Taipei: 07 Jun 04:00: Technical Board | 07 Jun 05:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 21:30: Xubuntu | 08 Jun 04:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu
<dinagef> Sorry I'm late...
<zul> meeting hasnt started yet
<dinagef> Ah, thanks.
<dinagef> Is Stephan on?
<imbrandon> @now
<highvoltage> @schedule Johannesburg
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: June 06 2006, 19:23:46 - Next meeting: Technical Board  in 36 minutes
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Africa/Johannesburg: 06 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 23:00: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu
<dinagef> What time does this kick off?
<imbrandon> 30 minutes or so for the TB meeting
<dinagef> ?
<dinagef> Yay!
<dinagef> FUCKING PISSFLAPS! UBUNTU R0X0RS!
<imbrandon> dinagef: just type @now and/or @schedule <timezone> while in this chan to find out later
<imbrandon> Seveas: heh anyway to keep him quiet durring the meeting , looks like it might be a problem ..... ( dinagef n=fred 82-42-225-31.stb.ubr06.live.blueyonder.co.uk * Fred Dinage )
<Seveas> imbrandon, yes there is
<imbrandon> ;)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jun 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* Keybuk takes a typing break
<bddebian> Hey folks
<mdz> morning
<Bluekuja> hello mdz,bddebian
<ogra> hey
<teckfatt> mdz: morning
<bddebian> Morning?  It's 4:00pm ;-)
<mjg59> Evening
<mdz> somewhere
<bddebian> Hi Bluekuja
<teckfatt> 9pm at UK
<pygi> hey hey Andrea
<mdz> Keybuk: ping
<highvoltage> hi bddebian, mdz, Bluekuja, ogra, mjg59, teckfatt and pygi :)
<bddebian> Heh, hi highvoltage
<Bluekuja> pygi: hello mario :)
<mdz> danger, danger!
<ogra> heh, hey highvoltage 
* ogra ducks
<Bluekuja> highvoltage: hello jon :)
<pygi> mdz, nuclear power plant is exploding? :)
<ogra> (instinctively)
<teckfatt> highvoltage: hello 
<imbrandon> danger will robinson ?!?
<pygi> bddebian, you came ;)
<zul> watchout radioactive man the sun is exploding again!
<bddebian> pygi: Yeah, I figure what the he** :-)
<bddebian> All they can do is laugh at me :-)
<mdz> crimsun: here?
<crimsun> mdz: yes
<mdz> I think you're first on the agenda
<mdz> welcome, all, etc.  let's get started ;-)
<mdz> crimsun: so you're applying for -core-dev?
<Keybuk> mdz: yup
<ogra> oh ? you arent already ? 
<crimsun> mdz: yes. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanielTChen (top section) has some words on what I'd like to do for main.
<bddebian> Crimsun wasn't already?
* ogra thought with all the alsa fixes that wouldnt be possible to do through a sponsor
<mjg59> Guys? Could we have a litle less background chatter?
<bddebian> Sorry
<mjg59> It makes it trickier to pick out the important stuff
<mdz> crimsun: so you plan to implement this troubleshooting tool?
<crimsun> mdz: yes, but certainly not alone
<crimsun> mdz: there are a fair number of clueful people who can assist, and I value their contributions (trappist and dolson come to mind)
<mdz> crimsun: it seems to me that it would be sensible to incorporate additional troubleshooting functionality into ogra's hwdb-client rather than add a new tool
<crimsun> mdz: point taken, given that hwdb-client already has the needed info
<ogra> which should see a (partial) rewrite anyway (and if only for front/backend splitting to make kde happy)
<mjg59> crimsun: You'd be happy with that?
<mdz> crimsun: and a primitive audio test
<crimsun> ogra: yes, and hopefully for Xfce, too?
<ogra> crimsun, yeah
<crimsun> mjg59: avoiding unnecessary code duplication? very much so.
<mjg59> crimsun: Has your MOTU work included much packaging?
<Keybuk> https://launchpad.net/people/crimsun/+packages
<crimsun> mjg59: of new source packages? not terribly much is in the archives. I've done mostly maintenance work, though I'm fairly familiar with packaging.
<mjg59> Ok, yeah, good point
<mdz> mjg59: crimsun is a regular contributor to our kernel tree as well, if I'm not mistaken
<mjg59> crimsun: My only vague concern is that working in main may involve you doing more packaging from scratch
<mjg59> But my experience of your work is that you're sufficiently responsible that I doubt that would cause any sort of problems
<crimsun> mjg59: I'm quite comfortable with packaging from scratch, as I'm pretty active in assisting others in #-motu
<mjg59> crimsun: Ok, sounds good
<mdz> crimsun: was it the development of this troubleshooting tool which motivated you to apply for upload rights to main?
<mdz> or anything else additionally?
<mjg59> mdz: He is, and he's been invaluable in helping us keep track with upstream alsa
* imbrandon can definately vouch for crimsun helping new packagers in #-motu
<crimsun> mdz: to be honest, it was moreso to avoid having to ask pitti to upload alsa* changes
<Keybuk> I was about to say, crimsun is one of the rare people who seems to not mind touching ALSA
<mjg59> Our sound support would be much worse otherwise
<mjg59> I don't think I've got any more questions. You guys?
<mdz> Keybuk: any questions for crimsun before voting?
<Keybuk> I have no questions
<mdz> votes?
<Keybuk> +1
<mdz> +1 and hearty thanks for your contributions to date
<mjg59> +1
<crimsun> thank you very much, and I look forward to making post-6.06 LTS rock even harder :)
<dholbach> congratulations, crimsun!
<mjg59> crimsun: Congrats!
<mdz> crimsun: congratulations and welcome
* ogra applauds crimsun ecstatically
<zul> crimsun: yay!
<jpatrick> crimsun: congrats
<mjg59> Who's up next?
<highvoltage> whohoo!
<imbrandon> congrats
<bddebian> w00t crimsun
<pygi> congrats crimsun ;)
<Keybuk> bddebian, I believe?
<Bluekuja> mjg59: Its me for dev
<mdz> is JAMIL AHMED present?
<siretart> congratulations, crimsun! :)
<Keybuk> mdz: he isn't a member of -dev yet
<mdz> Keybuk: indeed
<Keybuk> so needs a dholbach love letter
<mdz> dholbach: have you contacted him?
<mdz> Bluekuja: indeed, it appears you are next
<ogra> mdz, bddebian ?
<bddebian> ogra: ?
<dholbach> mdz: I contacted all of them, but not my-sweet-leader and bluekuja (they're still in my inbox)
<ogra> bddebian, you are on the Applied for membership list for core-dev
<bddebian> ogra: Aye, just waiting my turn :-)
<mdz> bddebian: oh, you applied before the previous meeting
<Keybuk> mdz: we didn't have a TB meeting two weeks ago, so bddebian didn't get processed
<mdz> right-o
<Keybuk> so bddebian has actually applied since the last TB meeting that took place
<mdz> bddebian: in that case you are next
<bddebian> OK.  Well I don't have as fancy of a wiki as crimsun :-)
<bddebian> In fact mine is severely out of date
<mdz> bddebian: indeed, your wiki link from launchpad is broken :-)
<bddebian> It is?
<bddebian> Hmm
<bddebian> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BarrydeFreese
<mdz> it links to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bddebian
<highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BddebianIsAGod ?
<mdz> which does not exist
<mdz> however, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BddebianIsAGod does
<bddebian> Scary
<ogra> lol
<mdz> bddebian: what has motivated you to apply for -core-dev?
<bddebian> Several things but probably the largest is bug fixes for some of the "less loved" packages
<bddebian> I was hoping to help out with X but I don't think that is going to be feasable
<Keybuk> do you have particular bug fixes in mind?
<bddebian> Anything and everything I can get my hands on
<mdz> bddebian: do you have any specific goals or areas where you plan to work?
<bddebian> What I run into a lot of times are small bug fixes (ie kscd) that I have fixes for
<mjg59> bddebian: Which less loves packages do you think are currently in main, and do you have your eye on any in particular?
<bddebian> This is going to sound cheesy, but no.  I kind of like hitting all the packages that don't see a great deal of attention.  Kind of the Ubuntu QA Group :-)
<Keybuk> bddebian: have you been making patches for those fixes and attaching them to the bug in Malone?
<bddebian> Yes
<Keybuk> do you have any examples?
<mdz> bddebian: have you made uploads to main through a sponsor?
<bddebian> Ack, what is up with LP
<bddebian> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kscd/+bug/37963
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 37963 in kscd "[patch]  song title partially hidden" [Normal,Confirmed]  
<bddebian> https://launchpad.net/people/bddebian/+packages
<bddebian> mdz: I'm not sure I can say that "officially", no
<mdz> bddebian: what do you mean?
<bddebian> I mean I don't know that someone officially sponsered a main upload for me
<mdz> bddebian: so to date, you haven't had cause to upload a package to main?
<bddebian> Other than bugfixes, no
<mjg59> bddebian: How do you think core-dev membership would significantly increase your workflow?
<bddebian> Well one of the things that I find frustrating is having to bother people for simple fixes for things.  Let me clarify this a little.
<mdz> bddebian: if you have contributions to make to main, the first logical step would be to have them reviewed and uploaded by an existing -core-dev member
<Keybuk> bddebian: a lot of your changes so far have been relatively minor bug fixes.  core-dev often involves quite major changes to packages, or even packaging new software.  Do you have any examples of packages you created from scratch, or patches you've written for particularly deep bugs in the source?
<bddebian> mdz: That would be provided I could find someone with the time
<mdz> bddebian: has that been a problem for you in the past?
<mjg59> bddebian: As we've seen, other people appear to manage this
<bddebian> mdz: Yes
<bddebian> mjg59: Aye and maybe I just irritate people I don't know.  I've tried to understand that
<mjg59> bddebian: Ok. It would be good to hear from people who've reviewed your patches to stuff in main
<bddebian> Keybuk: Probably not significantly enough no
<mdz> bddebian: have you approached someone for assistance with an upload and been declined?
<bddebian> mdz: No, not outright that I can think of
<bddebian> Well it appears that we are wasting peoples time, so no worries, I can try harder for Edgy I suppose.
<mdz> bddebian: I think that a good first step would be to work with someone to review and upload your packages to main.  If you need help in finding someone, I can help with that
<mjg59> bddebian: What would help a great deal is having people who are willing to comment on the quality of your work so far in main
<bddebian> mjg59: Well to Keybuk's point, I suppose none of them have been significant enough.
<mdz> bddebian: you have made a substantial contribution to universe and that is appreciated, but it would be best to start working in main before applying for direct upload rights
<Keybuk> indeed, I'd like to second mdz's comment that your work in universe is very much appreciated!  keep it up
<bddebian> Is there any chance of at least getting a Universe archive admin so we don't have to bother core-devs with syncs and removals?
<mdz> bddebian: if you have any fixes for main, I'd be happy to help you get them reviewed and uploaded
<bddebian> OK, thanks folks.
<Keybuk> bddebian: the trouble with that is that the only difference between main and universe from a LP point of view is just a field in the database.  So there's no way to separate them via access control for the dedicated tools at this time
<Keybuk> once the Web UI exposes syncs and removals, it should be trivial
<Keybuk> I believe that is on the cards
<bddebian> OK, thanks
<Keybuk> we literally just use tools that muck around with SQL at the moment
<mjg59> Ok. Is that it for core-dev?
<mdz> there doesn't seem to be a backlog on ubuntu-archive at the moment
<mdz> bddebian: thank you, and please do get in touch with me if you need any assistance
<bddebian> Sure
<mdz> is Fred Chu here?
<mdz> if not, Bluekuja is up for ubuntu-dev
<mjg59> Let's go with Bluekuja and then we can come back if necessary
<Bluekuja> I've made a lot on some packages related to irc and bittorrent(it would be great to maintain some of them in universe), they are v2strip , anope, cog, gtorrent-viewer, ctorrent(gtorrent, anope are still in revu, soon others). I'm working with sfllaw (and chistoph Hass) that advocates me also for debian, where I'm developing gtorrent.(he reviews my packages)
<Bluekuja> I'm an uploader also in fedora extras repositories, there are already some of mine packages inside( gtorrent, and v2strip) and right now I'm building eggdrop, another irc bot.
<mdz> Bluekuja: it looks like you're interested in edubuntu?
<Bluekuja> mdz: exactly, I work for the edubuntu italian team
<Bluekuja> with advocacy in schools and meetings
<ogra> mdz, Bluekuja is active with documentation transalations and stuff in edubuntu since a while 
<Bluekuja> ogra: thanks :)
<mdz> ogra: have you sponsored uploads for him?
<ogra> nope
<Bluekuja> mdz: i work on packages with simon law
<mdz> sfllaw: ping?
<sfllaw> Pong.
<sfllaw> So...
<sfllaw> I've looked at Bluekuja's gtorrentviewer package.
<sfllaw> And we've gone through it over a couple of iterations.
<sfllaw> It's good enough to get into universe, I think.
<mdz> Bluekuja: is that your first package?
<Bluekuja> mdz: nope, I've made also a lot of other packages that have to be reviewed
<ogra> have you got anything on revu ?
<Bluekuja> ogra: gtorrent-viewer, anope
<mdz> Bluekuja: anope is a new package?
<Bluekuja> mdz: what do you mean? new version or new package?
<mdz> Bluekuja: the description for it is not very clear; what does it do?
<mdz> Bluekuja: I mean new package
<Bluekuja> mdz: it's one of the most famous irc services
<Bluekuja> that supports all big servers
<Bluekuja> like ircd-hybrid etc
<mdz> Bluekuja: what does it do?
<ogra> looks like a bot collection
<Bluekuja> it provides chanserv, nickserv, hostserv
<Bluekuja> opserv
<Bluekuja> and botserv
<mdz> Bluekuja: that means nothing to people who do not already know what those terms mean :-)
<Bluekuja> mdz: sorry for the desc, I'll fix it as soon as possible :)
<mdz> Bluekuja: the description also needs to be wrapped; it's a single line of hundreds of characters
<Bluekuja> mdz: i work in irc stuff and so I'm really familiar 
<Bluekuja> ok perfect, It will be fixed
<Bluekuja> i'm working right now on eggdrop
<Bluekuja> that is an irc bot, that supports tcl scripts and c modules
<mdz> Bluekuja: what are you doing with it?
* ogra wonders why lintian didnt complain about the lenght ... but thats OT
<Bluekuja> ogra: yeah exactly
<mdz> ogra: submit@bugs.debian.org
<ogra> :)
<Bluekuja> mdz: :D
<mdz> Bluekuja: hmm?
<Bluekuja> mdz: i was saying that I'm currently developing some bots
<Bluekuja> of course related to the irc world
<Bluekuja> i want to provide a lot of packages for universe
<mdz> Bluekuja: I think it would be beneficial to spend more time working with MOTU and others to have your work reviewed and gain more experience with packaging before making unsupervised uploads
<mdz> Bluekuja: I'm sure sfllaw will gladly continue to give you feedback on your work
<Keybuk> mdz++
<Bluekuja> mdz: ok perfect 
<mdz> Bluekuja: ogra always welcomes Edubuntu contributions as well :-)
<ogra> :)
<Keybuk> I agree; continue working with sfllaw, and work a bit more with the MOTU, and you should gain the necessary experience in no time
<sfllaw> That he does.
<ogra> indeed ! :)
<Bluekuja> mdz,keybuk: ok great
<mdz> Bluekuja: feel free to contact me if you have any questions or need assistance
<mdz> Bluekuja: and thanks for your work so far
<Bluekuja> mdz: ok, thanks very much, I'll try to gain more experience in this weeks
<mdz> Bluekuja: great!
<mdz> is there anyone else here who is newly applying for membership in ubuntu-{core-,}dev?
<Bluekuja> mdz: ;) , i have to go now, have a good evening
<Bluekuja> cya guys
<highvoltage> bye Bluekuja 
<ogra> ciao Bluekuja 
<mdz> \sh is on the agenda, but not here?
<ogra> looks like 
<mdz> ok, perhaps at the next meeting then
<mdz> siretart: you wanted to discuss backports?
<siretart> mdz: yes
<siretart> mdz: first, I wanted to ask if there is currently a problem with -backports
<siretart> there hasn't been any request processed since quite some time, jdong told me
<mdz> siretart: this proposal sounds familiar
<mdz> I believe we talked about it before
<mdz> I support the idea of -core-dev being able to upload new source to backports
<Keybuk> can core-dev not do that today?
<mdz> Keybuk: as a matter of policy, to date we have limited backports to syncs
<mdz> and indeed, diverging source for backports should be avoided as much as is practical
<Keybuk> I guess there's no LP queue for "unapproved backports"
<mdz> siretart: when soyuz was first deployed, there was a delay before syncs could be processed, but as far as I know, syncs to backports should be working fine
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Kubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<mdz> siretart: requests should be made to ubuntu-archive, rather than elmo, though
<LaserJock> one thing I've found frustrating was there was at least one package I wanted backported but a couple of the deps had been renamed
<mdz> siretart: can you communicate that to jdong?
<siretart> mdz: well, I imagined 'syncs' to backports arn't really syncs, because they involve fiddling with debian/changelog
<siretart> mdz: I told him that syncs are now handled via launchpad and ubuntu archive, but I havn't seen him forwarding bugs yet.
<mdz> siretart: if there are any outstanding backport requests, they should be filed in Malone and ubuntu-archive subscribed, as  with other archive requests
<siretart> mdz: I'll tell him again, no problem
<siretart> ok, what about 'manual' uploads of -core-dev's to -backports?
<mdz> siretart: <mdz> I support the idea of -core-dev being able to upload new source to backports
<mdz> however: <mdz> and indeed, diverging source for backports should be avoided as much as is practical
<ogra> didnt we discuss that in montreal already ?
<mjg59> I have a vague query about the numbering mentioned in the proposal
<mjg59> Oh, actually, no I don't
<siretart> ogra: with what result?
<mdz> siretart: can you expand on your question about review?
<ogra> siretart, no idea i just remember a discussion there and mdz saying he'd be ok with core-dev uploading
<siretart> mdz: well, currently every upload to dapper-updates gets into a 'poket' for manual review, AIUI. do we need that for -backports as well?
<siretart> I'm not sure, and I tend to believe that we don't
<mdz> siretart: given that backports is disabled by default, and therefore opt-in, I don't think the same caution is needed
<siretart> ok
<mdz> if the only uploads are sync requests from the backports team, or uploads from -core-dev, I'm happy for them to go straight in
<siretart> ok. great
<siretart> there is another suggestion. how about opening edgy-backports after edgy's UVF?
<siretart> during processing UVF request for dapper, there were quite some requests, which didn't fit for dapper, but for dapper-updates
<siretart> users would have been happy if they could have had them there..
<mdz> siretart: I have no objection there
<siretart> s/dapper-updates/dapper-backports/ that is
<mdz> of course
<mdz> siretart: edgy-backports may even appear when edgy opens, though it wouldn't make much sense to upload to it just yet
<siretart> right. it makes only sense after UVF
<mdz> siretart: ping me at UVF if there's any blockage in uploading to edgy-backports
<siretart> mdz: will do
<siretart> is dapper-backports already open for uploads?
<mdz> siretart: do you think your proposal can be turned into a how-to document for backports?
<mdz> siretart: it should be, yes
<siretart> mdz: I can style that up and rename it to BackportsHowto, no problem
<siretart> ok. great
<mdz> siretart: excellent, thanks...presumably you'll talk it over with ubuntu-backporters as well?
<mdz> siretart: are the members of that team still active?
<siretart> mdz: ubuntu backporters is jdong, and mez AFAIK. they both seem to be rather MIA recently.. 
<ogra> mez did an evil upload to universe of an unreviewed package just before dapper release ... so he's still alive at least
<Riddell> mez is moving house just now
<siretart> ah. ok
<mdz> siretart: thanks for bringing the issue to our attention; I didn't realize there was confusion about how backports requests were to be handled now
<mdz> siretart: are all of your questions answered?
<siretart> I'll apply for ubuntu-backports as well
<siretart> mdz: all questions answered. thanks!
<mdz> great
<mdz> any other business from anyone?
<ogra> lets free the room for kubuntu :)
<imbrandon> ;)
<highvoltage> goodnight everyone!
<siretart> just a last question - does anyone remember how to apply for ubuntu-backports team?
<kmon> hi
<ogra> ciao highvoltage 
<kmon> did the meeting started?
<mdz> siretart: it seems to be restricted
<imbrandon> kmon: TB just ending
<Lure> hi kmon - kubuntu meeting will start soon
<kmon> oh
<mdz> siretart: talk to jdong; it should probably be moderated instead
<kmon> I've just arrived home
<siretart> mdz: I'll sort that out with jdong. he seem to irc from time to time..
<toma> kmon: i just hear from reliable sources, that we will start in a minute
<ogra> he was here yesterday
<mdz> siretart: if you can't get in touch with him or mez to change it, let me know
<siretart> ok. will do
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<mdz> adjourned
<ogra> thanks
<pygi> Lure, anyone applying for membership in kubuntu?
<imbrandon> pygi: one person https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> so let's start
* toma is Tom Albers
* Riddell is Jonathan Riddell
<pygi> imbrandon, I as well? :)
* Hobbsee is asleep.
* Tonio_ is Anthony Mercatante
* pygi is Mario Danic
* Lure is Luka Renko
* imbrandon is Brandon Holtsclaw
* kmon javier
* linuxmonkey is Terry Jacob (Tired.Staying up too late helping people with raid)
<Riddell> agenda is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> and kmon has the first item
<imbrandon> pygi: add your self to the agenda with a link to your wiki page then ;)
* Hobbsee is actually Sarah Hobbs
<pygi> imbrandon, nah, edubuntu one tommorow
<pygi> Don't wanna bother people with 2 thingies :)
<kmon> ok, my first point is an idea to centralise unofficial packages for kubuntu dapper
* goldenear is Nicolas Le Guen
<kmon> and to do it in a way to avoid replication
<claydoh> claydoh is Clay Weber
<Riddell> I think this is handled by the last item at the tech board
<Riddell> and new packages should be in backports
<kmon> maybe give uploading priviledges to people in kubuntu.de to kubuntu.org
<kmon> ok
<Riddell> what's on kubuntu.de at the moment?
<Tonio_> I wanted to say the same Riddell
<Lure> Riddell: so kde, amarok will go to backports soon?
<kmon> amarok which is a duplicate
<Tonio_> we don't really make usage of backports repository...
<kmon> kaffeine 0.8
<kmon> which is new
<pygi> Tonio_, we can make Kubuntu backports team
<kmon> k3b
<kmon> and other few
<toma> (rsibreak)
<imbrandon> kmon: yea centralized in -backports, kubuntu.org is more for early adopters and testers that know whats going on
<Tonio_> imbrandon: I agree
<Riddell> we can't backport things until edgy is open so that's made a gap, but the tech board was saying that edgy-backports will be open as soon as edgy closes for upstream version freeze
<pygi> Riddell, indeed
<Tonio_> Riddell: good news
<Hobbsee> Riddell: when is UVF for edgy
<Riddell> I did try to backport all of KDE but backports was broken at the time so it never happened
<toma> good
<Riddell> Hobbsee: timetable will be set at the paris summit
<Hobbsee> that's what i thought
<linuxmonkey> cool
<ogra> we might not have UVF in edgy :)
<kmon> and how about giving priviledges to upload to the kubuntu.org package archive?
<Tonio_> Riddell: I think there was an issue with breezy-backports
<Tonio_> since packages don't have to be changed from the +1 version and the change to debhelper5
<pygi> ogra, that would be joy :)
<Riddell> kmon: I can't do that, it's a canonical server
<kmon> ok
<Riddell> kmon: but the packages on kubuntu.org are KDE and KDE projects only to get the KDE developers liking kubuntu
<ogra> pygi, its an official proposal so it might be discussed 
<Tonio_> that will not happen with dapper/edgy so make usage of backports should be easier
<imbrandon> kmon: or maybe not package archive as they are currently signed with Riddell key but as Hobbsee said people.kubuntu.org/~imbrandon/ etc 
<pygi> ogra, we would get more uptodate packages, but lot less bugfixes
<Riddell> imbrandon: wait for that agenda item :)
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: apparently that's cannonical staff only...
<ogra> pygi, thats the plan (but OT in here now)
<kmon> then maybe a wiki page or something like that so people can coordinate efforts and avoid duplication
<kmon> and for users to have a single point to check out for newver software
<kmon> since dapper is going to be here for a long time
<imbrandon> kmon: that sounds alot more feasable , so kubuntu.org and kubuntu.de can work togather
<Riddell> kmon: backports is that point
<kmon> ok
<imbrandon> kmon: but also kubuntu.org IS unofficial repos , thus only ealy adopters untill it hits backports
<Hobbsee> and Czessi.net, for that matter
<kmon> so the answer is wait for backports?
<Lure> kmon: I think it is clear now: kubuntu.org is primarily for KDE releases (same day as announcement), while backports is when those are ready for wider testers
<imbrandon> basicly , yes , think of kubuntu.org repos as pre-backports ;)
<Tonio_> Riddell: is mez still responsible for the backports ?
<kmon> then can I suggest a kaffeine package in kubuntu.org?
<Riddell> Tonio_: yes, and jdong, but at tech board just now other people said they'd sign up to it
<Lure> kmon: I think we need more a wiki page for latest-and-greatest releases so that not 5 people package kopete
<kmon> Lure: that's my main point
<Hobbsee> Lure: hehe.  i think i only counted 4
<Riddell> kmon: kaffeine always has bugs in its releases
<Lure> but when package is ready, Riddell can put it on kubuntu.org
<Tonio_> Riddell: would be interesting to have one of the backports maintainers here for next meetings, to get technical informations, and policy informations too
<imbrandon> Lure: kmon , thats some of what nixternal linuxmonkey and me are trying to do with the current wiki and buntudot.org ( orginise the kubuntu related stuff )
<Hobbsee> also, are these packages to go on kubuntu.org going to be put thru the same QA as the stuff to go into the repos?
<Riddell> Tonio_: policy is any package in edgy archive that compiles in dapper can be backported I think
<Lure> Tonio_: there will be wiki howto for backports (done by siretart)
<Tonio_> Riddell: no modifications allowed I presume ?
<Lure> Tonio_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReinhardTartler/BackportsProposal is what was discussed today on TB
<Tonio_> Lure: thanks ;) I missed this TB.....
<Riddell> Tonio_: yes (although looking at tech board discussion that may change in limited cases)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: that's why I don't want lots of packages on there
<Tonio_> okay
<Hobbsee> mmm ok
<Riddell> Hobbsee: does this cover your next agenda item too?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: i think so
<Riddell> any more questions on the topic?
<Riddell> kmon: your item, wiki pages
<kmon> ok, me again
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Kubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu
<kmon> the wiki is messy
* Hobbsee added to the documentation last night :P
<kmon> kubuntu wiki page is full of pages about everything
<kmon> helping users, packaging, testing
<imbrandon> kmon , thats some of what nixternal linuxmonkey and me are trying to do with the current wiki and buntudot.org ( make the kubuntu related stuff pretty )
<imbrandon> instead of mixed with ubuntu that gets confusing
<imbrandon> to new users
<linuxmonkey> :)
<kmon> imbrandon: interesting
<Riddell> kmon: how would you like the "Kubuntu" page to be?
<imbrandon> yes the current wiki needs cleaned up and i do think there should be a kubuntu-wiki team
* Hobbsee is wary of splitting the two wiki sites - as a lot of the pages are not DM specific
<linuxmonkey> Alot of stuff in wiki is version specific, what I think we  want to do is take all the kubuntu stuff and make it simple for users to find/use
<kmon> More like ubuntu front page
* nixternal is available for kubuntu-wiki team help...as well as kubuntu documentation if needed
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: you've misspelled cannonical.
<nixternal> lol
<kmon> more organised
<imbrandon> whoops , i'll fix it after the meeting
<Riddell> sounds like we have a number of people interested in helping :)
* linuxmonkey says I second that.
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: in fact, just generally proofread it - i saw two errors in one line :P
* goldenear can also help
<imbrandon> there is only one line currently ;)
<Lure> in general it would be good to separate User stuff from Community/Developers stuff
<kmon> Lure: yes
<nixternal> i have aided with documentation in the form of reviews, articles, and how-to's for various sites over the past years...writing is a hobby and somethine i enjoy..only tech writing though ;)
<linuxmonkey> even if there are parts of the wiki that are not DM specific, the sections that do have DM specific stuff should be kept seperate as users get confused
<Lure> and inside that have version specific stuff that can get easily hidden (not linked) when new release is out
<Riddell> DM?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: display manager, i think
<linuxmonkey> my bad
<linuxmonkey> yea
<kmon> it should be DE :P
<goldenear> Also it may be nice to organize the pages function of the user skill (eg beginer pages, advanced user pages, administrator pages, dev pages)
<linuxmonkey> meaning KDE/Gnome etc..
<Riddell> kmon, imbrandon, nixternal, linuxmonkey and goldenear should chat about this when they can and work out how to tidy the wiki pages
<Riddell> there's lots of things on there that are now obsolete or need updating
<Lure> can somebody write a spec what should be done - otherwise it will be hard to allign the efforts of many people...
<kmon> Riddell: yes
<Hobbsee> as is the case with a lof of wiki pages, of course
<imbrandon> sure Lure
<toma> but i would not like to see a split to buntudot.org that would not help any user
<Riddell> I think it just needs going over all the pages and working out which ones need to be linked from the Kubuntu page and in what sane order
* nixternal is available all the time...except during sleep of course
<kmon> and maybe talk to the ubuntu documentation team and ask for help
<imbrandon> toma no not split thats a whole diffrent ball game
<toma> oki
<Riddell> shall we move on?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: your item
<imbrandon> more clean up the current wiki and make sure there is kubuntu instructions for everything, as currently there is mostly only gnome specific stuff and screen shots etc
* Hobbsee is surprised that she has an item
<linuxmonkey> lol
<Hobbsee> Is it possible to get upload space or something on kubuntu.org? eg, kubuntu.org/people/~hobbsee? Would it be useful? Who would we give it to?
<Hobbsee> although i heard later that that's cannonical people only...
* linuxmonkey hands Hobbsee a pillow, there's your item
<Riddell> short anwer is no, canonical doesn't give out server space to non-employees
<Lure> I heard that new LP will have private repos - but not sure for whom...
<Hobbsee> is there some sort of equivalent place that we can upload to, or just use REVU, and say "do not review"?
<Riddell> and people.ubuntu.com is badly named, it was named before ubuntu was public
<Riddell> however if you read daniel silverstone's interview on behindubuntu you'll see they're planning personal archives on launchpad
<Riddell> so you can upload your source packages and they'll get compiled (at low priority) and put into your personal archive
<kmon> then we need another kde employeed :P
<toma> ok
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: for the time being i can give you server space on my server and a shell account if thats what your needing atm 
* Lure has abused Tonio_'s repos... ;-)
<kmon> s/kde/kde dev
<Hobbsee> hehe, cool
<Tonio_> Lure: hehe
<Riddell> also the supermirror may one day actually happen and at that time you can push your bzr source archives onto it
<imbrandon> nice
<Hobbsee> cool, okay
<toma> certificate
<imbrandon> that would be good considering then they could be compiled for more than i386 or whatever is used by the dev
<imbrandon> like sf.net compilefarm
<Hobbsee> certificate...mmm...please someone fix it...
<Riddell> in the mean time ask around and probably somebody can give you an account on their server
<Hobbsee> Riddell: okay
<Riddell> I put in a request to sysadmin to fix the certificate
<Riddell> no reply yet
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: after the meeting pm me and i'll set ya up
<Hobbsee> Riddell: excellent!
<Hobbsee> my upload limit is pretty slow anywya, but thanks
<Riddell> you could try very gently asking one of the sysadmins but I suspect it's low priority for them
<Hobbsee> well yeah
<Lure> Riddell: I doubt it will be easy fix - our IT has same problems with certificates ;-)
<Riddell> "now that we're between releases"  releases don't really affect it
<Riddell> toma: your item
<toma> anyone using keytouch? I installed it a couple of days ago and was impressed. It just works. (see my blog) Sime approached me and mentioned that it could go into guidance when I adjust it. I wanted to know your opinions
<Riddell> what is it?
<toma> i contacted upstream and he is very helpfull 
<kmon> toma: can you give a link to the blog?
<toma> it is an app to make your multi media keys work
<imbrandon> yes i've used / using keytouch right now, its a very nice piece of soft
<imbrandon> very clean
<Tonio_> toma: very interesting :)
<Riddell> how does it work?
<linuxmonkey> url? cause i'll want to get that
<toma> kmon: http://www.omat.nl/drupal/?q=node/79
<kmon> toma: oh, nevermind. I remeber reading that on the planet
<Riddell> it may be interesting for https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuLaptopButtons
<toma> Riddell: i believe it works with a kernel module and a daemon, but i have to look into that. Not sure about the module
<imbrandon> the nice thing about it is keyboards that arent supported out of the box are trivial to add 
<Lure> Riddell: can be, but we want something more hardcoded for Ubuntu laptop keycodes
<toma> it has a separate gui, so easily fits in guidance.
<Riddell> toma: I'll take a look at it and we'll consider it at the Paris summit for that spec
<toma> imbrandon: indeed
<toma> making unsupported keyboards work is easy
<linuxmonkey> thats a good thing
<Lure> Riddell: it more fixes the problem of X keyboard layouts not being updated fast enough
<Riddell> kernel module sounds a bit scary though
<pygi> Riddell, if anybody is interested in implementing that Guidance for Grub, I am willing to provide assistance
<pygi> (me is sorry for interupting)
<Riddell> toma: your item again
<toma> Riddell: ok. The current kde interface is bad imho. and if you have an unsupported kayboard, you have to make your own mapping somewhere in X. 
<Tonio_> toma: as long as the kernel recognises the keys, which doesn't work on my vaio....
<toma> that is scary ;-)
<toma> Tonio_: not sure.
* Riddell puts Tonio_ down for the vaio testing team
<Tonio_> Riddell: I was thinking to do it :) I bought it yesterday, so gimme a moment plz ;)
<toma> Tonio_: we need to check later, ok?
<Tonio_> toma: sure ;)
<Lure> Tonio_: your vaio should be suppported by hotkey-setup
<toma> my next item was pretty good described in the wiki. 
<Lure> and kernel driver
<toma> i really have had it with all those mediaplayers
<Riddell> "Instead of having totem/xine/codeine/kmplayer & kaffeine"
<toma> why don't we ship 1 which works
<toma> and the rest optional
<Tonio_> Lure: I use fsfn + sonypi but we'll discuss this later :)
<imbrandon> afaik kaffeine is the only kubuntu default
<Riddell> because none work in all situations?
<Riddell> imbrandon: we ship kaffeine, kmplayer and amarok
<Riddell> if we removed amarok we'd be lynched
<toma> because its confusing imho
<Hobbsee> Riddell: sure about kmplayer?
<imbrandon> what does kmplayer do that kaffeine dosent ?
<Riddell> and kmplayer is plugin only, which we added because kaffeine plugin is unstable
<imbrandon> and kmplay i dont think is dafualt
* Hobbsee doesnt seem to have kmplayer in her kmenu
<imbrandon> ahh
<Lure> imbrandon: does not crash konqueror
<Hobbsee> oh
<Riddell> we don't install the kmplayer app by default
<Tonio_> Riddell: I would vote for kmplayer only since it's only default is the UI which is in the work actually
* imbrandon always installs mozilla-mplayer right away anyhow
<toma> besides deciding which app, would we go with that scenario?
<goldenear> I'm currently with koos on the successor of kmplayer named oskar
<Riddell> toma: which scenario?
<Tonio_> toma: I personnaly don't like audio/video players
<Riddell> goldenear: what's that all about?
<Tonio_> I like when they are separate
<toma> Riddell: ship one which works
<Tonio_> toma: since the needs are different between audio and video
<Riddell> toma: sure, when you make one that works 
<Lure> Tonio_: +1
<linuxmonkey> Tonio_: your like me I run XMMS for audio and something else for video
<imbrandon> or ship the best one and fix it ;)
<kmon> Tonio_: and amarok is the best audio app out there
<toma> we can work closely with upstream to make it do what we want
<goldenear> oskar will be the nex version of kmplayer... it's intented to have all the power of kmplayer (and the nice embedded feature) but also a much better UI for the standalone player
<Tonio_> toma: but I agree it is not very nice to ship a standalone player and another for the konqueror part.........
<Tonio_> this should be one only application
* imbrandon agrees with Tonio_
<Riddell> goldenear: that sounds lovely
<Lure> Tonio_: can we configure kaffeine to use kmplayer kpart ;-)
<toma> Tonio_: yes, and one for audio and one for video is of course fine
<Tonio_> the problem is that kaffeine-part may never work correctly
<goldenear> Also koos would need some help from an experienced kde dev
<toma> goldenear: why? he is one
<claydoh> I like kmplayer, as its plugin works for konq, for one thing
<Riddell> koos is an experienced kde dev!
<Riddell> interesting question for edgy will be the xine/gstreamer debate again
<Tonio_> since according to upstream the crash is due to konqueror, so he doesn't want to go the way kmplayer does (playing in a separate xsession and binding the video output to the konqueror window)
<goldenear> but he would need help to work on the "cosmetic" on the UI
<toma> goldenear: did he say that?
<goldenear> (I'm speaking about kmplayer)
<goldenear> Yes, I had a discussion with koos on the irc
<Lure> Tonio_: but kmplayer's way is just better imho anyhow
<goldenear> we spoke about some improvement needed for the kmplayer standalone player
<Tonio_> Lure: I agree, but kaffeine's upstream doesn't want to make it work that way........
<goldenear> also we chose a new name for the project: oskar
<Riddell> kmplayer does get very confusing
<Riddell> as a name
<Tonio_> Lure: btw, kaffeine is now becoming a mess with those audio features that dupplicate amarok/konqueror/kaudiocreator
<goldenear> kmplayer sounds too much like a mplayer frontend only. (kmplayer can also use xine, gstreamer... and soon phonon :) )
<Riddell> goldenear: what is Koos' IRC nick?
<Tonio_> Riddell: the name is gonna change to oskar
<goldenear> Riddell: koos
<imbrandon> yea it would be nice to look at just oskar for edgy
<Riddell> don't think I've seen him on IRC
<toma> me neither
<Tonio_> imbrandon: I would agree with this approach
<linuxmonkey> yeah imbrandon i agree with that too
<toma> ++
<Lure> ++
<goldenear> here is a mockup for oskar I've done : http://goldenear.online.fr/oskar/oskar_mockup.jpg
<imbrandon> well oskar ++ amarok ;)
<Riddell> if oskar is ready in time for edgy it sounds like a good candidate replacement for kaffeine
<Tonio_> Riddell: true ;)
<goldenear> also the playlist an the left is ugly (but it's how it currently looks)
<toma> else kmplayer?
<Riddell> goldenear: arg!  multiple level trees!
<Hobbsee> Riddell: dont you just love them?  *ducks*
<goldenear> Riddell: the playlist is ugly and will be change... 
<Tonio_> Riddell: yes, the UI really needs polishing :)
<goldenear> this is juste a mockup made from different screenshots
<Riddell> maybe we can get ellen to come up with good interface at Paris
<toma> yes
<toma> good idea
<Riddell> ok, I'll make a spec for that and we'll see what comes of it
<Tonio_> Riddell: kaffeine could give ideas ! it's UI is really nice (the problem is behind ^^)
<imbrandon> whom is the main dev on amarok ?
<toma> Riddell: else i can ask Tina to help us
<kmon> talking about paris... are the kde people invited to go to paris involved in writting specs now
<goldenear> If somebody could work with koos on the interface (especialy for adding the left sidebar) it would be great :)
<Riddell> kmon: I'll send out an e-mail to them
<kmon> Riddell: their responses could be a nice inclusion in next ubuntu newsletter ;)
<Riddell> so, talking of specs, the ones I have so far are listed at https://launchpad.net/people/jr/+specs
<Riddell> all the "Undefined" ones
<Riddell> please add any comments you have to their wiki pages
<Riddell> and did everyone read the first ubuntu newsletter?
* Hobbsee did.  another mailing list
<Hobbsee> what was in it?
* kmon did
<imbrandon> what mailing list ?
<Riddell> ubuntu-news
<Lure> Hobbsee: Kubuntu section ;-)
<imbrandon> i get 3k messages a day so i WILL read it but not as of yet
<Hobbsee> Lure: i remember that much - just not what was in it :P
<goldenear> I would also add Kubuntu ACPI
<nixternal> imbrandon...bugs?
<Riddell> goldenear: covered by laptop-buttons and power-management
<Lure> Hobbsee: just release announcement and paris KDE invited devell
<Hobbsee> oh that's right...
<Riddell> if you have items for the next newsletter please add them to the wiki page
<Riddell> ok, do we have any member candidates here?
<goldenear> Edgy would need good ACPI support not only for laptops... I would like to be able to suspend my *desktop* computer too (Gnome can do it)
<toma> linuxmonkey: PING you are now!
<Tonio_> goldenear: isn't kpowersave able to do that ?
* linuxmonkey wakes up
<Lure> goldenear: your problem is that klaptop is too smart and then too dumb - it does /proc/acpi reading and assumes laptops - it should use hal
<Lure> Tonio_: powersave may help, but then it will not use Ubuntu base.... :-(
<Hobbsee> linuxmonkey: i dont think you're supposed to admit that you were asleep
<linuxmonkey> Hi my name is Terry Jacob and I want to apply to membership as to be able to work with a great bunch of people and become more dedicated to kubuntu
<goldenear> I already explained that on the devel channel: kpowersave can suspend my computer... but the computer then hangs during wake-up :(
<Tonio_> Lure: yes I know that..........
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-07
<Riddell> linuxmonkey: do you have a wiki page?
<linuxmonkey> yes
<Tonio_> Lure: kpowersave in kubuntu is quite frustrating
<linuxmonkey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Linuxmonkey
<imbrandon> Riddell: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Linuxmonkey
<Riddell> linuxmonkey: what have you done to help Kubuntu?
<linuxmonkey> well I help out as much as I can in #kubuntu as well as I have started to design Display Pictures for people to use to be able to show their support for Kubuntu
<Tonio_> linuxmonkey: what are your plans for future contributions ?
* imbrandon can speak for linuxmonkey in that i have seen him help new users esp in #kubuntu and dosent stray from the CoC when I've been arround to notice him ( we are on diffrent schedules )
* Hobbsee hasnt seemed to notice linuxmonkey before - not sure why though...
<linuxmonkey> well I plan to help fix up the docs for kubuntu and keep supporting out vast user base
<Tonio_> imbrandon: I can confirm I saw him beeing quite active on #kubuntu
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: me and you are awake at diffrent times than linuxmonkey
<Riddell> linuxmonkey: have you spoken to jjesse or robotgeek?
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: fair enough
<toma> linuxmonkey: how long are you around helping people?
<linuxmonkey> well id have to say a few months atleast, i had a 1 month vacation about 2 months ago
<Tonio_> linuxmonkey: did you get a launchpad account and signed the code of conduct ?
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: yeah, there's one there, nothing on it
<Riddell> seems to be active on irc from 27th May
<imbrandon> i have realy noticed him about the last 1 months personaly , but then again i'm on a diffrent schedule than him
<Lure> Tonio_: yes - https://launchpad.net/people/linuxmonkey/
<Hobbsee> 27th of may...a week and a half ago, or os
<Hobbsee> *so
<linuxmonkey> yes ive signed the codes of conducts 1.0 and couldnt sign 1.0.1 yet since there's a bug on LP
<linuxmonkey> ive been here longer
<toma> not subscribed to any bugs?
<toma> or filed any?
<Hobbsee> the zero karma is a little odd...
<linuxmonkey> not yet no, and was having an issue filling a few
<Riddell> gosh, quite a grilling we give :)
<Riddell> linuxmonkey: you should talk to jjesse and robotgeek about helping with docs, that would be great
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: well I was still 0 karma when I became member :) packages don't bring points for example ;)
<linuxmonkey> I shall do that
<Lure> Riddell: you have to keep the standards..;-)
<Riddell> and see if you have ideas for the spec jjesse started https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuDocs/Edgy
<Hobbsee> hehe - i saw that the CC was doign the same for the memberships a few days ago
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: true, they do show in launchpad though
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: true :)
<Riddell> linuxmonkey: but I think we need more visible contributions before making you a member
<linuxmonkey> thats cool
<Riddell> linuxmonkey: but don't let this put you off, #kubuntu needs all the helpers it can get and docs do too
<Riddell> so come back soon and you should be in
<Tonio_> linuxmonkey: agree with Riddell... We appreciate your willing to become a member and help, but that needs more visible and concrete stuff
<linuxmonkey> no worries, I will
<Riddell> anyone else for membership?
<jenda> sorry to disturb... how does one book this channel for a meeting? (The New User Network)
<Riddell> jenda: e-mail fridge-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
<jenda> ok
<Riddell> any other business?
<toma> yes, if we dont hang out on #kubuntu we dont see contributions
* toma is guilty
<pygi> Riddell, well, that grub implementation stuff if you want to discuss :)
<Hobbsee> there are logs though - which can be added to wiki pages or whatever...
<Riddell> pygi: what's that?
<pygi> Riddell, that guidance module for grub configuring we were talking about?
<imbrandon> toma: irc logs ;)
<Lure> an dwe have Hobbsee 
<pygi> otherwise nothing :)
<toma> k
<Lure> (irc op and stuff ;-))
<linuxmonkey> lol adding logs to wiki, that be 1 very long wiki
<Hobbsee> Lure: hmmm?  only when my brain is working...
<Riddell> pygi: just takes someone to write it
<pygi> Riddell, bah,ok, nvm :)
* pygi rests his case ;)
<Riddell> did we all like dapper?
<toma> pygi: you can't write?
<imbrandon> btw Hobbsee / Riddell how does one apply for the irc op team ? ya know since i spend all my time here and all ;)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: no, we hated it :P
<Lure> Riddell: of course - particularly with kde 3.5.3 ;-)
* imbrandon loves dapper
<Riddell> imbrandon: just ask me
<Tonio_> Riddell: kubuntu dapper is nice, but kde settings sucks, really ;)
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: you run the IRC op gauntlet, and many other daunting tasks
<Hobbsee> +1 Tonio_ 
<pygi> toma, perhaps I might, but there are things of higher priority :)
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: hehe
<imbrandon> heh ;)
<Hobbsee> :)
<toma> pygi: oki!
<imbrandon> ohhhhhh
<kmon> Riddell: dapper rocks
<imbrandon> one last thing i forgot about on the agenda
<Hobbsee> hee
<nixternal> ummm...whats dapper?
<nixternal> ;)
<toma> I like dapper very much, although i dont like the printing affair.
<imbrandon> Riddell: what about a Systems settings module for Samba like kcontrol has ?
<Lure> toma: printing is over-rated by this blog guy
<Tonio_> the only thing we can regret copmparing to ubuntu is compiz..... and that isn't ready to change
<Riddell> imbrandon: we should look at fixing any bugs the existing one has for edgy
<toma> Lure: yes. 
<Tonio_> but appart from that, the changes between breezy and dapper are hudge
<Riddell> Tonio_: well I have a spec for that, I just have zero idea how to implement it
* claydoh got smacked on the head when his mrs had to print, and I wasn't arouind to hold her hand
<Tonio_> I don't remember another kde based distro that improved that much in only 6 month....
<Lure> toma: regular users do not have problems prinitng, while this guy wants to have the cups his way, while Ubuntu guys decided on different direction
<Tonio_> Riddell: when you know that zack tried and failed........
<Tonio_> Riddell: I just think we can wait for kde4 for compiz.....
<nixternal> i have 5 different printers and cups loves all 5...not one usb'd to my machines...all samba and tcp/ip
<toma> Lure: well, i can't print either and that hurts when i want to make invoices. 
<Riddell> Tonio_: oh I don't know about that, I suspect suse will come up with something very soon
<Riddell> ok, we're getting into discussion now
<Lure> toma: really? bug#?
<Riddell> date of next meeting?
<toma> Lure: but lets not get into that, people are working on it.
<Tonio_> Riddell: as you say "I will beleive it when I see it !" ;)
* Hobbsee will likely not be at the next meeting, depending on when it is
<Tonio_> Riddell: in 2 weeks ?
<imbrandon> 6/20/2006  ?
<linuxmonkey> Hobbsee: you almost missed this one
<linuxmonkey> lmao
<Riddell> Tonio_: 2 weeks is the summit
<Lure> before or after or from paris?
<Lure> ;-)
<Riddell> should be after summit
<Hobbsee> linuxmonkey: i'm not great with mornings :P
<Riddell> and preferably not on a tech board night
<Tonio_> Riddell: true....
<Riddell> 26th?
<linuxmonkey> its 7:21PM here:)
<Tonio_> in three weeks then, on thuesday ?
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: Current meeting: Kubuntu | 07 Jun 23:30: Xubuntu | 08 Jun 06:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 23:30: Xubuntu
<Hobbsee> linuxmonkey: ^
<Hobbsee> er, 7am here
<toma> Riddell: are you happy with dapper?
<Riddell> don't tuesdays clash with tech/community board?
<Riddell> toma: I think dapper rocks!
<Riddell> it has weaknesses like laptop support and that printing stuff, but in general I'm really proud of it
<Riddell> and the developer community we have here is the best bit
<toma> yes, you all did a great job!
<Hobbsee> heh.  i'd intended to sit back and watch dapper being created.  it didnt seem to happen that way though.
<imbrandon> cen we get kwii to get rid of the bubbles for edgy, it reminds me of kde2 ;)
<imbrandon> can*
<Riddell> any problems with monday 26th at 21:00UTC?
<Riddell> imbrandon: we'll have something different certainly, I like the bubbles though
<Tonio_> Riddell: fine with me ;)
<imbrandon> 26 at 2100 is cool with me
<linuxmonkey> i'll be here
<Hobbsee> er...exams will be done by them, so it should be okay
<Hobbsee> just
<imbrandon> Riddell: since Odyx isnt here want me to do the minutes ?
<toma> ok for me
<Riddell> imbrandon: that would be great
<imbrandon> kk
<claydoh> every distro's kde setup makes me love my kubuntu desktop evenn more
<linuxmonkey> oh 1 other thing can we get the LP CoC 1.0.1 fixed :)
<Riddell> imbrandon: and if you could e-mail fridge-devel with the next meeting that would be great too
<imbrandon> Riddell: sure
<claydoh> really, its the little simplifications, etc i like
<Hobbsee> Riddell: i want a purple kubuntu :P
<linuxmonkey> lol
<imbrandon> zomg !!!!!!111
<kmon> Hobbsee: I had mine that way
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: no, that's pink :P
<imbrandon> and PONIES !
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: bwa !!!!!!!! purple ???
<Hobbsee> yeah, purple!
<toma> oh, and i wanted to say thanks for the minutes of last meeting. they look totally cool!
<Riddell> well this is getting silly now
<Hobbsee> hehe
<Riddell> remember to review the specs https://launchpad.net/people/jr/+specs
<linuxmonkey> Hobbsee: mess with your monitor settings and your should be able to turn the blue to purple fairly easely
<Hobbsee> Riddell: i'm in the meeting, do you expect it to be anything else?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: go to university and don't be late!
<Riddell> night all
<Hobbsee> Riddell: hehe!  sure i will :P
<Tonio_> nite
* imbrandon suspecs she is already late
<kmon> bye
<Lure> night all
* Hobbsee thinks she'll actually be on time todya
<toma> nite all
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: it starts in an hour and a half
<linuxmonkey> and its 2 hours away?
<linuxmonkey> hehehe
<Hobbsee> no...25min away...
<toma> time for coffee then
<Hobbsee> bleck, i dont drink coffee.
<goldenear> Riddell: who are Ellen and Tania ?
<Riddell> goldenear: -> #kubuntu-devel
<nipper> How can I make a proposal for the next meeting?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 07 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 16:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 04:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 09:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 07 Jun 13:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<highvoltage> @schedule washington
<cbx33> @schedule london
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 07 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 21:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 13:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 14:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<jsgotangco> @schedule manila
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Manila: 07 Jun 21:30: Xubuntu | 08 Jun 04:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 21:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<jsgotangco> yay
<ajmitch> perfect time for an edubuntu meeting, right?
<cbx33> hehe
<jsgotangco> I LOVE IT
<flint> @schedule washington
<flint> @schedule est
<Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: 07 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<flint> @schedule est
<Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: 07 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu | 07 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<EmxBA> hi 
<EmxBA> so current meeting is Xubuntu right
<seanh> according to the fridge, yes
<janimo> EmxBA: should start in a few minutes
<EmxBA> ok
<janimo> there's no agenda though
<janimo> EmxBA: anything in particular that you want to discuss?
<EmxBA> janimo: not really
<EmxBA> maybe edubuntu 
<EmxBA> oh, I know 
<EmxBA> i had several problems with espresso
<EmxBA> i suppose you know hat it is :P
<EmxBA> *what
<janimo> yes, for bug reports LP is the way to go, not the meeting though :)
<EmxBA> ok
<janimo> nomed: ping
<seanh> EmxBA - I just recently installed xubuntu and am interested, about how many people are there working on it?
<EmxBA> it looks good
<EmxBA> i tried xfce 4 on slackware
<EmxBA> looks bad
<EmxBA> it is better on xubuntu
<EmxBA> really
<janimo> crimsun: hi, we have no agenda for the meeting so if there's anything you want to talk about please do
<janimo> same for others
<crimsun> janimo: (ok)
<janimo> I haven't got around to make edgy specs from any of the wiki ideas yet
<crimsun> ok, just finished reading XubuntuEdgyIdeas
* highvoltage pops in
<janimo> crimsun, feel free to edit that page if you have things to add
<janimo> highvoltage: hi
<highvoltage> i have a new Xubuntu website ready off-line, which i think looks great, and will be easier to update than our static page atm.
<janimo> highvoltage: good news :)
<highvoltage> Znarl has just set up the database, and will be sending me the password today.
<janimo> highvoltage: when you get a chance can you describe what are the exact logout actions which should be allowed in a thin client?
<crimsun> not sure if we're following any sort of order for "Important Features", but the one that certainly interests me is the multimedia situation. The thread on the mailing list seems to have decent suggestions. I suspect we'll want to replace xfmedia pretty soon/early in Edgy?
<janimo> comment on the LP bug you opened preferably
<janimo> crimsun: I agree, we can go gxine shortly after edgy opens
<janimo> or whatever yuo think fits better
<EmxBA> ok
<crimsun> I think gxine is a good initial replacement, but many people want to see a GSt-based one in Edgy, it seems
<seanh> my two cents: I haven't seen this mailing list thread, but the most common command I've typed since installing xubuntu is "killall xfmedia"
<janimo> crimsun: but are there any besides totem?
<EmxBA> i assume no
<janimo> good ones, like xine based one
<janimo> seanh: yeah, it's hanging too often
<highvoltage> gxine is great.
<crimsun> I don't know of one off the top of my head that will do both audio and video like Totem
<seanh> Have you considered having a music player and a video player seperately?
<janimo> crimsun: totem depends on gnome libs though as seen in the thread
<crimsun> janimo: right, problematic
<janimo> seanh: sure
<highvoltage> i've seen beep-media-player pop up in some old threads and wiki pages. is there a reason that won't work for xubuntu?
<janimo> highvoltage: that is discontinued by upstream
<janimo> they were working on xmms3 last time I read
<EmxBA> where can ubuntu-lite be downloaded
<crimsun> right, and upstream hopes to have 0.20, the next version, of BMPx available for Edgy
<janimo> EmxBA: ubuntulite.org I presume
<EmxBA> no
<EmxBA> Curently no download links are avalible
<highvoltage> ah
<crimsun> BMPx is a completely rewritten app based on GSt. It's library-based similar many of the newer audio apps. It should play video, too, but I haven't tried with the latest stable, 0.14.x
<janimo> crimsun: sounds good
<seanh> just installed gxine, immediate comments: It needs a splash screen to launch, there is a button on the main interface to change the audio channel
<seanh> it seems to have some adult channels installed by default, I'm not even sure what they are, internet radio or tv it seems, the UI is quite bad in my opinion
<crimsun> seanh: Darren Salt's quite responsive to gxine bug reports, so many of those things could be addressed
<seanh> Right, you'd really want to overhaul the UI from the looks of it, there's a lot of strange technical details exposed
<janimo> crimsun: did the BMPx devs specifically mention edgy or their schedule just coincides with edgy's ?
<crimsun> I do want to point out some additional shortcomings of gxine, the most important of which is the fact that it's based on xine-lib. From a technical perspective, being xine-lib-based introduces a problem of forcing a user to restart the application whenever a new sound card is chosen.
<crimsun> janimo: they're not tying BMPx 0.20 to Edgy, but last I chatted with the devs, they hope to have it in time for Edgy
<crimsun> i.e., no rigorous committment
<janimo> crimsun: the sound-card switch thing is a corner case though no? especially in xubuntu targetted machines
<janimo> crimsun: do you know anything about how xinelibs and gst (not any players based on them) compare wrt memory requirements?
<crimsun> janimo: depends whether one considers having multiple sound devices a corner case nowadays :)  but yes, I do see your point.
<crimsun> janimo: I haven't done specific evalution
<janimo> the major disadvantage to xine I see is that since both gnome and kde move over to it, we'd be havoing it in main only for us, and carry it along
<janimo> I think kubuntu 6.06 still has xine right?
<Riddell> janimo: yes
<crimsun> right, the fact that both gnome 2.12 and kde 4 (will) have migrated to GSt is a strong reason to choose a GSt-based player
<Riddell> kde 4 isn't migrating to gstreamer
<Riddell> it's migrating to whichever backend is best on the day
<ogra> but kubuntu :)
<crimsun> Riddell: what are the choices being considered?
<janimo> Riddell: yeah, they thought there are not yet enough layers of from apps to the hw
<Riddell> crimsun: phonon using xine, NMM, gstreamer, anything else that comes along
<crimsun> Riddell: hmm, ok, thanks
<janimo> layers of abstraction I meant
<mjg59> Riddell: For generic media purposes - presumably gstreamer will end up used for more complex cases?
<Riddell> mjg59: depends on the choice of the application author
<Riddell> but using gstreamer directly in KDE would be frowned upon for binary compatibility reasons
<crimsun> For Xubuntu, seanh's query is pertinent then. Should there be separate audio and video players?
<crimsun> I'm inclined to shy from introducing that separation
<janimo> crimsun: I'm fine with whatever you chose
<janimo> I think anything will be an improvement over current status
<janimo> gxine plays audio too so we can just have that
<crimsun> ok, I move that when Edgy opens, we replace xfmedia with gxine but continue to evaluate GSt-based players
<janimo> crimsun: agreed
<nomed> i'm in late 
<nomed> hi all
<janimo> hi nomed
<janimo> crimsun: I assume we ant to keep all the deps of gxine and bring them in main, however crazy :)
<crimsun> I believe Gauvain tried compiling gtk-only totem and had difficulties
<crimsun> janimo: hmm, yes, for now
<crimsun> 'lo nomed 
<janimo> crimsun: yes, g-vfs deps
<janimo> nomed: we have been discussing multimedia status for now. Any topic you want to discuss? Agenda is empty
<nomed> janimo, ex..
<nomed> i'm moderating the xubuntu board of the ubuntu-it forum
<nomed> what i've seen there is:
<nomed> 1) users have problems with "edit menu"
<nomed> MANY
<janimo> Riddell: do you know if there are specific apps which may become common (module GUI) for edgy?
<nomed> they will not check in launchpad
<nomed> NEVER
<nomed> if there are known bug
<janimo> Riddell: kde/gnome apps I mean
<crimsun> nomed: yeah, that menu-editor one is pretty annoying
<janimo> like language-support is now
<nomed> 2) xfmedia doesn't work
<janimo> crimsun, nomed I agree I'll have to take a look at it these days
<nomed> users that used xubuntu on old machines ..
<nomed> were thinking it was too slow
<nomed> because of xfmedia ..
<janimo> nomed: as a workaround these and other issues may need to be prominently advertised on the xubuntu-it site
<nomed> ex while playing audio cds
<Riddell> janimo: network-manager
<janimo> since it is quite normal people wont' check LP
<Riddell> janimo: beagle maybe?
<nomed> janimo, done ...
<janimo> Riddell: that already is backend+frontend no? Or does kde use something else now?
<Riddell> janimo: back/frontend are separated, we have knetworkmanager
<janimo> Riddell: how about the gnome-power-manager? Does kde have something like that?
<nomed> but they do not check if the topic is a "stiky" 
<Riddell> janimo: kde has the unmaintained klaptopdaemon and the suse maintained kpowersave
<nomed> then ...
<nomed> they expect that thunar can have:
<nomed> 1) ssh as gnome vfs
<nomed> 2) they want to use samba+file manager
<Riddell> janimo: kde may also get compiz support for edgy, possibly, maybe
<janimo> Riddell: update-manager/notifier?
<crimsun> nomed: thunar doesn't currently have support for smb, does it?
<janimo> crimsun: it does not
<nomed> crimsun, it doesn't
<crimsun> right
<Riddell> janimo: we have adept for both
<janimo> Riddell: yeah, I mean is a unification with the gnome ones planned ?
<nomed> the lang switcher doesn't work ..
<janimo> nomed: the keyboard switcher?
<janimo> or the language selector?
<nomed> we may thing to use ubiquity code for that
<nomed> janimo, kayboard switcher
<Riddell> janimo: no, although the language selector has a qt version and gdebi and dist-upgrader may gain kde ports
<janimo> nomed, hmm does not work or cannot add new layouts from the GUI?
<nomed> janimo, no langs available
<nomed> ubiquity gas a big list ...
<nomed> and it's possible to select all of them from its frontend
<janimo> nomed, yes need to edit xorg.conf. Sad but Gauvain and I got too late into the xkb plugin to make it ready for dapper
<janimo> nomed: it will be done for edgy definitely
<nomed> janimo, nice :)
<nomed> i'm just listing all the feedbacks i got ..
<janimo> nomed: thanks
<nomed> that i think could be xubuntu edgy  stuff
<janimo> the menueditor at least should be dapper-updates stuff as well
<crimsun> yeah, that should be highest priority imo
<nomed> janimo, it has to ..
<nomed> what i'd add is:
<nomed> 1) desktop search tool
<nomed> 2) galago +  mail client
<nomed> 3) notification daemon
<nomed> i've been testing sylpheed ..
<nomed> but it needs to improve
<nomed> from the gui to the usability
<nomed> if we want to use it ..
<nomed> we have to contact upstreamers i guess
<ogra> we were discussing balsa for edubuntu recently
<janimo> or just continue using t-bird 
<nomed> ogra, that's something i should test
<nomed> janimo, thunaderbird is not that good for old machines
<janimo> ogra, what's wrong woth t-bird (as it's in main already)
<nomed> if it'll be possible to use
<janimo> nomed, I know, but sylpheed has too many quirks
<nomed> *saemonkey*
<ogra> janimo, tb has tb langpacks
<janimo> and mail clients are not that important imho
<nomed> we'll have all there
<nomed> janimo, i do not think so ..
<nomed> :)
<crimsun> but seamonkey has even heftier system requirements last time I evaluated it
<ogra> janimo, if i look at new stuff for edubuntu, my main concern is to reduce CD size
<nomed> but we have different ideas here :)
<janimo> ogra, I know. t-bird was about 8Meg smaller than evo right?
<nomed> ogra, seamonkey has browser+mail client
<janimo> ogra, the best way for you to get that would be to work on dpkg-7zip :)
<ogra> janimo, including all the langpacks you need on the CD i very much doubt it
<nomed> and it's really faster then firefox ..
<janimo> ogra, w/o langpacks, true
<nomed> i dunno how it's doable to include it in main
<janimo> nomed, seamonlye (mozilla) was just dropped to universe, so I don;t know if it would come back
<ogra> janimo, balsa translations would only grow the gnome langpack in a minimal way and balsa itself is 2.5M
<nomed> ohh ..
<janimo> new ffox/tbird should build on the new seamonkey code and be faster as well
<janimo> in theory
<nomed> janimo, that would be ideal
<crimsun> how much interaction is planned with UbuntuLite?
<janimo> crimsun: I hope they will be interested
<janimo> I'd like to get icewm and/or fluxbox on the CD
<janimo> but I doubt I'll be able to handle upstream interaction/packaging whatever else by myself
<nomed> icewm has better "feedesktop standard" support
<janimo> so I hope either ubuntu lite or existing MOTUs show interest
<crimsun> ok, and just on the CD, or do you envision there being a selector in the installer?
<janimo> nomed: that by itslef is no big deal :) . People need it because it's light
<crimsun> (not sure how this would affect the whole "X" branding...)
<janimo> crimsun: I though of a minimal intervention in the installer (the least minimal being a boot option) to chose from the exiting desktops
<nomed> for fluxbox there are nubuntu guys
<janimo> like feesbie ot some other FreeBDS livecd does with flux/xfce
<nomed> i don't know that much about nubuntu
<crimsun> not familiar w/ nubuntu either
<nomed> but they are active on thei project ..
<nomed> if ubuntulite ppl do not show interest
<nomed> that's a possible alternative
<janimo> right
<nomed> they'll take care for sure of fluxbox ackages
<nomed> +
<nomed> configrations
<janimo> from the nubuntu page
<janimo> we do not think about whether people are using it or not.  We are more concerned about the learning process
<janimo> does not mean it cannot be good though :)
<nomed> ehehe
<crimsun> I'm in favour of including both icewm and fluxbox in addition as an initial step
<janimo> crimsun: including on the CD? or are you thinking of how to present the choice to the user as wlel?
<nomed> i'm not sure that's a good idea ..
<crimsun> janimo: I think if either/both are to be on the CD, prompting needs to stay away from the installer
<nomed> i agree
<janimo> crimsun, so just install them and appearing in GDM menu?
<crimsun> janimo: not even sure I'd have them installed, just on the CD. Conceivably people wanting Xfce wouldn't want either of the others
<janimo> or they could be an explicit boot option since only people who know about them will choose them
<janimo> but we need some way to run them in the desktop CD
<crimsun> right, something at boot time is preferable to an installer prompt or shoehorning either into gdm
<janimo> that'd make the difference of being able to run in 64M live or not
<nomed> janimo, that probably means to patch casper
<janimo> depends also on liveCD improvemts for edgy thiugh
<Mithrandir> janimo: what kind of live CD improvements are you looking for?
<janimo> right now xfce live runs up until the Xfce splash screen in 64M then the wheel stops turning...
<janimo> Mithrandir: make it much faster, and make it use much less ram . Nothing more :)
<Mithrandir> janimo: that's probably more "desktop" and less "live cd", though.
<nomed> Mithrandir, i've never checked it ..
<janimo> Mithrandir: I was just mentioning that our aim of running a live/desktop CD in 64M using fluxbox or icewm may be reached without us doing anything if improvements were don in the liveCD 
<nomed> does casper support swap ?
<Mithrandir> nomed: casper uses and swap which is already set up, so yes.
<Mithrandir> s/and/any
<crimsun> any additional items for Xubuntu discussion? (another meeting offline shortly)
<nomed> Mithrandir, if i'm not wrong livecds as knoppix can use a swap made on a win partition ..
<nomed> but i'm not even sure of that ..
<nomed> crimsun, for me it's over
<nomed> cu 
<Mithrandir> nomed: patches accepted. :-)
<crimsun> janimo: ok, Xubuntu adjourned then?
<nomed> Mithrandir, i'll take a look
<janimo> crimsun: yes
<nomed> i need to go for a while now
<nomed> bye
<crimsun> ok.
<Mithrandir> (as in, I'll accept patches, but it's not near the top of my list, so I probably won't get to do it myself)
<janimo> bye all
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Jun 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Jun 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team
<lucasvo> hi pygi 
<lucasvo> already warming up ?
<pygi> lucasvo, hehe :)
<HedgeMage> hehe
<pygi> Was just watching croatia vs. spain 
<pygi> joy :-P
* lucasvo hasn't got a tv
<neuralis> pygi: how did we do?
<pygi> neuralis, we are winning 1:0
<pygi> spain player gave himself a goal with head :)
<neuralis> awesome.
<lucasvo> wow
<pygi> indeed, but we almost got like 3 goals :-/
<pygi> Defence is not good :-/
<HedgeMage> I'm ssh'ed to an irssi session on my linux box from hubby's windows lappy, so if this borks itself at some point, give me 5 minutes to corral TT and get into the office
<pygi> HedgeMage, no worries ;)
<cbx33> As you are all aware, my laptop is playing up with the keyboard
<HedgeMage> hehe :)
<cbx33> please ignore typos, I'm trying to resolve
<mhz> TT...lol!
<JaneW> hello - sorry I am late
<mhz> JaneW: hey!!
<JaneW> or am I early?
<cbx33> but the bug is very ellusive
<lucasvo> cbx33: just don't mess up with - and +
<cbx33> heheh
<HedgeMage> JaneW: right on time.
<lucasvo> hi JaneW 
<JaneW> yay
<pygi> neuralis, whats new with you? I hear there are still legal things to settle with that python thing of yours :(
<JaneW> sorry I am not completely compus mentus
<pygi> hey JaneW ;)
<Amaranth> 1 minute
<cbx33> Hi Jane
<cbx33> how are you feeling
<cbx33> have we started yet?
<lucasvo> cbx33: not yet
<lucasvo> actually it just turned 22:00
<cbx33> <--------------------------------------------meeting notes start here---------------------------------------------->
<neuralis> pygi: i'm in croatia; ping me outside of the meeting, we'll have a beer.
<JaneW> not great
<pygi> neuralis, nice, great ;)
<ogra> hi all
<cbx33> hey ogra 
* highvoltage beams in
<highvoltage> hi edubuntero's
* cbx33 is wrestling with pygtk treeviews
* Burgwork thinks highvoltage is a crazy trekkie
<lucasvo> hi everybody
<cbx33> Burgwork, he could mean he's smiling
<ogra> i dont think we need to got through the general agenda items today
<ogra> edgy isnt open yet 
* JaneW looks for agenda
<cbx33> Burgwork, having just read #edubuntu I was wrong
<Burgwork> cbx33, no comment
<JaneW> ogra: we got member candidates?
<ogra> yes, two 
<lucasvo> JaneW: yup
<HedgeMage> JaneW: me! :D
<JaneW> HedgeMage: :)
<highvoltage> whohoo!
* jenda waves at HedgeMage
* JaneW prepares the flaming hoops
* cbx33 tries   remember HedgeMage's bribes
* HedgeMage waves back
<ogra> just a short update, i'm working on a fix for dapper-updates for edubuntu-artwork (in case you didnt notice we're missing the cursor theme)
<HedgeMage> rofl cbx33 
<cbx33> cool ogra 
<lucasvo> cbx33: don't you see the tons of chocolate in front of you?
<cbx33> ahhh....that's waht it was
<cbx33> ogra, i see the homies have been making an appearance in a lot of places
<ogra> additionally, thanks to highvoltage LaserJock and cbx33 for adding specs and spec ideas on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuEdgyIdeas
<highvoltage> cool. more specs will populate that space shortly :)
<cbx33> oooh, what  you have up your sleeve?
<lucasvo> what is our agenda today?
* JaneW congratulates all. Edubuntu currently at 25 on DistroWatch last 7 days list http://distrowatch.com/index.php?dataspan=1
<ogra> in case you want to add something still, only things with initial spec attached will be considered
<HedgeMage> :)
<pygi> highvoltage, indeed, along with new S-C-P specc :)
<jsgotangco> morning
<JaneW> is the whole EC here?
<lucasvo> only voting for edubuntu members?
<JaneW> jsgotangco: ?
<JaneW> oh hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> 4am =)
<ogra> JaneW, LaserJock is missing it seems
<JaneW> LaserJock?
<cbx33> pygi, cool
<cbx33> he;s around
<cbx33> but v.busy
<HedgeMage> S-C-P == ?
<ogra> just not here
<jsgotangco> student control panel
<lucasvo> HedgeMage: student control panel
<cbx33> nope
<ogra> HedgeMage, student control panel
<HedgeMage> lucasvo: ahh cool
<ogra> i'm just writing on the spec
<cbx33> cool
<pygi> ogra, oki, tell me so I can see what needs to be done, or add something perhaps ;)
<cbx33> I'd like to see it too
<LaserJock> sorry people
<lucasvo> hi LaserJock 
<JaneW> hi LaserJock 
<cbx33> woh LaserJock fancy meeting you here ;)
<JaneW> ok everyone is here
<ogra> pygi, in principle it will only list the stuff from the TODO and two or three additional features
<Amaranth> so, what spec did you guys want to kidnap me for? :)
<JaneW> so this is my last EC meeting. I will be around for next week's Edubuntu regular meeting.
<ogra> ok, enough edubuntu stuff lets start with the fun :)
<cbx33> :( JaneW 
<HedgeMage> JaneW: we'll be sorry to see you go :(
* mhz hughs JaneW 
<JaneW> I obviously have to step down from the EC...
<mhz> -h
* cbx33 starts the group hug
<JaneW> but am happy to vote tonight - if I may
<JaneW> ?
<mhz> nope :D
<highvoltage> +1
* JaneW *hugs* all
<ogra> Amaranth, willow-ng is enough, really ... if you still have sparetime you can add https filtering :P
* highvoltage *hugs* JaneW 
<Amaranth> hehe
* HedgeMage hugs JaneW 
<JaneW> are you guys happy to remain with an EC of 4 from now on, for the next while?
* LaserJock tries to end his forum posting spree and focus on Edubuntu
<ogra> JaneW, you can evenn stay in the council if you want i see no reason why not
<cbx33> ogra, true
* HedgeMage agrees with ogra 
<cbx33> tut tut LaserJock 
* highvoltage too
<cbx33> +1
<JaneW> ogra: I am not sure I can commit to carrying out responsibilities
<ogra> so we'd at least see you once a month :)
<cbx33> oh wait I already did
<LaserJock> ogra: should the EC vote to keep JaneW in the EC ;-)
<ogra> lol
<cbx33> heheh
<mhz> heheh
<JaneW> ogra: I'd like to remain a member though?
<cbx33> by the looks of things it already has
<ogra> JaneW, sure 
<JaneW> ogra: I shall certainly try to be here though
* cbx33 is going to burn his laptop if this keyboard issue persists
<ogra> JaneW, we want to keep our lara (edubuntu) craft (girl) *g*
<jsgotangco> JaneW: as long as you dont play bliss anymore i'll ack
<LaserJock> hehe
<highvoltage> heh.
<ogra> jsgotangco, well, as long as she doesnt play it in public at least :)
<JaneW> jsgotangco: haha, agreed
<jsgotangco> yes that must have been the cause of the plague
<JaneW> !
<cbx33> awww
<LaserJock> anyway, back on task?
<ogra> soooo
<Amaranth> ogra: lara croft
* Amaranth derails it again...
<ogra> there is this mario danic guy who wants to be a member 
<lucasvo> who is that?
<ogra> anybody know him ? 
<lucasvo> Nick?
* JaneW can;t wait for Dapper CDs to arrive
<cbx33> hmm
<Amaranth> never heard of him
<cbx33> I think I've heard of him
<cbx33> He's helped me out a lot
<ogra> *grin*
<Amaranth> hehe
<cbx33> great guy
<highvoltage> mr pygi
<cbx33> really dedicated
<highvoltage> (some might say too dedicated)
<lucasvo> oh, embarassing, that's pygi
<JaneW> pygi: want to present yourself?
<ogra> pygi, so show us your two line intro :)
<JaneW> highvoltage: :P
<HedgeMage> ogra: I think he's worth keeping around ;)
<Amaranth> lucasvo: we were joking :P
<pygi> ogra, intro? I don't have a intro :P
<lucasvo> Amaranth: I wasn't, *gettingredface*
<jsgotangco> surely you have one, i woke up at 4am just for this =)
<ogra> pygi, its usual to have prepared two lines introducing yourself ...
<pygi> o joy :)
<Amaranth> pygi is my hero
<ogra> you can do that on the fly if you like :)
* cbx33 hopes pygi is a fast typer
* HedgeMage did it
<Amaranth> there is one line ;)
<highvoltage> pygi: you wrote a big part of the cookbook, surely you can come up with two lines :)
* HedgeMage is feeling organized today
<cbx33> by that I assume you have your HedgeMage 
* HedgeMage nods to cbx33 
<JaneW> pygi: you basically need to tell us who you are, what you have done so far, and what you intend to contribute in the future...
<Amaranth> HedgeMage: me too, i'm actually using evolution to keep appointments :)
<pygi> JaneW, I know, sec ;)
<HedgeMage> hehe
<lucasvo> maybe HedgeMage could begin?
<Amaranth> that might be good
<lucasvo> to give pygi a little bit more time?
<jsgotangco> sure
<Amaranth> give pygi some time to prepare
<JaneW> HedgeMage: yes if you are ready now...?
<HedgeMage> sure...
<lucasvo> HedgeMage, go for it!
<HedgeMage> I've been working with computer technology in education since 1992, and with Linux since 1995.  In my 2+ months with Edubuntu, I've become an editor of the Cookbook with pygi (Mario Danic) and general helper on IRC, the mailing lists, and wiki.  I hope to pick up some development tasks in the future, when cookbook feels "finished", FSVT.
* HedgeMage wonders if irssi truncated that
<Amaranth> FSVT?
<HedgeMage> "for some value thereof" 
<Amaranth> ah
<HedgeMage> it's never really finished... heh
<ogra> so shoot then :)
<ogra> haha
<jsgotangco> well HedgeMage wrote much of the release annoucement for edubuntu dapper too if its worth mentioning
<HedgeMage> Yep, thanks jsgotangco :D
<ogra> yes, unless we stop development it will be an all time changer :)
<JaneW> HedgeMage: you have also been a good consistent presence here
<HedgeMage> :) thanks JaneW 
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: have you had much interaction with non-Edubuntu people?
<cbx33> HedgeMage, has been fantastic
* LaserJock puts on his BBQ hat ;-)
<ogra> i like the introduction of your wiki :)
<JaneW> HedgeMage: so you are interested in getting into the dev side too?
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: LOL as in #ubuntu non-edubuntu people, or as in "do you have a life, HedgeMage?"
<highvoltage> link?
* HedgeMage nods to JaneW 
<HedgeMage> ogra: thanks
<JaneW> HedgeMage: excellent
<lucasvo> I think it's depressing, being in school and reading the sentence " The most important things I've learned were never taught.:
<JaneW> HedgeMage: lol
<Amaranth> HedgeMage: You're an IRCOP?
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: as in, interecation with Ubuntu and Kubuntu devs, doc writers, etc.
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: have you been or are you planning on contributing outside of Edubuntu is sort of my question?
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: Not to other ubuntu stuff, no.  I may in the future if an interesting opportunity comes up, but I'm particularly interested in the educational stuff.
<JaneW> LaserJock: oi just rem you have an edubuntu hat on here ;)
* cbx33 pokes LaserJock 
<cbx33> he's poaching
<ogra> HedgeMage, which area would you want to work onin edubuntu  if you'd do development
<ogra> s/onin/on in/
<cbx33> onion?
<LaserJock> JaneW: I do but I think it's important to note that we are a part of a larger community ;-)
<HedgeMage> ogra: haven't decided yet... I'm trying not to get too interested in another project while Cookbook still needs so much attention
<JaneW> HedgeMage: I think it's really helpful here that you have educational knowledge and background, besides your IT skills. :)
<LaserJock> JaneW: it wasn't a negative thing as much as a wondering :-)
<spacey> hi
<HedgeMage> ogra: I'm easily distracted if I'm not careful ;)
<spacey> :o
<HedgeMage> hi spacey 
<JaneW> LaserJock: understood :)
<HedgeMage> JaneW: thanks... I was raised by a teacher, and used to teach disabled kids, so it is very helpful :)
<LaserJock> JaneW: particularly if she wants to work on development she will probably want to be involved with the MOTU
<ogra> HedgeMage, i can totally feel with you here, i have the same prob
<JaneW> HedgeMage: you made an edubuntu cake!?
<LaserJock> \o/
<HedgeMage> JaneW: yes, but I don't have a digital camera so there are no pics until I get film developed
<Amaranth> HedgeMage: would you be able to make sure the accessibility stuff is working right?
* JaneW is impressed
<HedgeMage> :D
<jsgotangco> interesting now we have solid competition of ubuntu food
<Amaranth> or do you mean a different kind of disabled?
* highvoltage waits in anticipation of those pics
<HedgeMage> Amaranth: definitely.
* jenda endulges the Ubuntu diet...
<lucasvo> HedgeMage: you can read braille? 
<JaneW> HedgeMage: if you can help with accessability that's +++ from me :)
<HedgeMage> Amaranth: didn't have any blind kids (by chance, not design) but many deaf kids, and kids with emotional, developmental, and/or physical problems.
<HedgeMage> lucasvo: nope
<HedgeMage> lucasvo: could probably learn, and probably should, I have a blind nephew
<jsgotangco> HedgeMage: we neeeeeed more people with realy life a11y experience
<jsgotangco> s/realy/real
<HedgeMage> I'm often an accessability nag :)
<Amaranth> Score.
<jsgotangco> profit
<ogra> jsgotangco, we (edubuntu) need more people with general dev knowledge :)
<LaserJock> shall we vote? or shall we continue the HedgeMage love fest?
<JaneW> ogra: INDEED
<jsgotangco> well i was talking with m a11y hat on :/
<JaneW> I am ready to vote I think
* jsgotangco sits in a corner
<JaneW> anymore questions anyone?
<cbx33> HedgeMage, where do you think edubuntu needs most improvement?
<ogra> i think we all know HedgeMage good enough :)
<HedgeMage> cbx33: hmmm...
* HedgeMage thinks
* LaserJock thinks cbx33 is running for a EC seat ;-)
<cbx33> who me sir?
<JaneW> heh
<JaneW> ok let's vote.
<jsgotangco> alright
<JaneW> All in favour of HedgeMage as Edubuntu Member?
<HedgeMage> cbx33: I think we need to make sure we have an installer that offers some lighter stuff for more hardware-poor areas as defaults.
<jsgotangco> happy to vote based on merits, but should sign CoC
<HedgeMage> cbx33: that would be #1 on my list.
<highvoltage> +1 for HedgeMage 
<ogra> +1 from me based on good experience with HedgeMage 
<HedgeMage> jsgotangco: ack, I did that right before my lappy died... must not have gotten posted well
<jsgotangco> cheers
<cbx33> +1 from me if I were able to vote :p
<JaneW> +1 definitely (with note to say please strongly consider getting involved in dev side, as it's the biggest single need)
<ogra> +++
<HedgeMage> :)
<ogra> LaserJock, ?
<ogra> jsgotangco, ?
<HedgeMage> I think I bored him to sleep ;)
<LaserJock> doh, sorry, keyboard was acting up
<LaserJock> +1 from me
<ogra> jsgotangco, fallen asleep ?
<JaneW> jsgotangco: yes COC signing would be a prereq anyway
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: you're an awesome part of the Edubuntu community and I wish you luck as you continue your efforts :-)
<jsgotangco> no still here
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: Thanks!
<mhz> heheh
<ogra> indeed, we can approve LP team membershib for non ubunteros
<jsgotangco> ogra: huh?
<ogra> *cant
<mhz> oh
<HedgeMage> I'll re-do and re-upload right now
<ogra> jsgotangco, your vote ? 
<JaneW> jsgotangco: please give a clear vote + or - please
<Amaranth> that reminds me, i need to figure out how to get my key signed
<jsgotangco> +1 sorry
<highvoltage> +ONE!!111!11cos(0)
<JaneW> jsgotangco: thanks
<ogra> or 0
* HedgeMage realizes her private key is only on the dead lappy and in a safe deposit box
<ogra> yay
<JaneW> HedgeMage: it's unanimous then, welcome!
<HedgeMage> grrr
<HedgeMage> JaneW: Thank you!
<mhz> ya! HedgeMage is EC!!!
* HedgeMage does a happy dance
<ogra> HedgeMage, welcome aboard !!!
<highvoltage> HedgeMage: welcome to the team :)
<mhz> duh
<cbx33> congrats HedgeMage 
<ogra> now get your CoC signed :)
<mhz> EM
<highvoltage> mhz: EC? i thought we were voting for member!
<JaneW> mhz: no edubuntu member not EC
* jenda shakes HedgeMage's hand... and then stops getting in the way of the meeting... 
<HedgeMage> ogra: once I visit the bank :/   I could make a new key, I guess.
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: safe deposit box? that should make here geeky enought to work on the dev side, right ;-)
<mhz> highvoltage: sorry guys... one handed at this point
<HedgeMage> LaserJock: heh
<JaneW> jenda: it's ok, we are a bit less formal here :)
<ogra> HedgeMage, well, it needs to be signed
<HedgeMage> thanks, jenda :) and thanks for coming to support me
<highvoltage> mhz: please keep both your hands on keyboard during meetings *ahem*
<cbx33> HedgeMage, you deserve it
<HedgeMage> ogra: I'll make a new one right now
<jenda> support? I was just looking ;)
<Amaranth> *giggle*
<JaneW> highvoltage: !
* HedgeMage closes screen for a sec to do that
<mhz> highvoltage: can't right now, but will in a mins.
<highvoltage> lol!
<Amaranth> pygi: Ready?
<pygi> Amaranth, yup :P
<ogra> then move on :)
<pygi> excuse me for bad writing first :P
<JaneW> ogra: is there any auto checking for COC signed before allowing membership, or do we need to check manually?
<pygi> My name is Mario Danic, and my FOSS life started somewhere
<pygi> around Slackware 2.x. I am contributing to Ubuntu since it's very
<pygi> own starts and first release, and trying to randomly help
<pygi> where I am welcome to do so. For Edubuntu, I've been maintaining
<pygi> and writing the "How to Cook Edubuntu?" stuff with Susan (HedgeMage),
<pygi> which I hope will even improve in the future. For other things, I've made
<pygi> effort with few other people to bring and package n-m 0.6.2 into/for dapper,
<pygi> and fixing all that bunch of bugs. For Edubuntu in general for Edgy,
<pygi> I plan to pursue S-C-P to make it the best tool of it's kind
<pygi> ever, and I hope to even more bug ogra and the rest of folks
<mhz> HedgeMage: cool, women's ideas are always needed
<pygi> at #edubuntu, and will be holding amongst others, presentation
<pygi> about Edubuntu at Hungarian Linux Users Conference.
<pygi> On other thoughts, I plan to contribute to Kubuntu for Edgy
<pygi> in form of KDE UI for bzr, and perhaps, but just perhaps writing
<pygi> a guidance module for  Grub. Also, I am mentoring 3 students
<pygi> for SoC, so perhaps we can have some great stuff for edgy if 
<Amaranth> eek
<pygi> it all turns out good. If I am forced again, I might pursue 
<pygi> membership in MOTU so I wouldn't need to bother ogra for every lill'
<pygi> upload :)
<pygi> o joy :)
<Amaranth> two lines :P
<ogra> JaneW, manually is the safe bet think
<ogra> pygi, wow that were two long sentences :)
<highvoltage> that's a long two lines indeed.
<cbx33> nice pygi 
<JaneW> pygi: thanks
* cbx33 notes pygi has helped out me a lot with learning python to get me started on the dev side
<Amaranth> am i the only one who just started this stuff with ubuntu 4.10? :P
* ogra knocks on the wiki "hello ?"
<ogra> ah, now it loads :)
<highvoltage> Amaranth: i used ubuntu since it was called no-name-yet.com
<JaneW> pygi: generally I think you are very enthusiastic and keen, and are very motivated 
<Amaranth> i meant linux in general
<Amaranth> again, pygi is my hero :)
<ogra> pygi, slack 2.0 ? that was '95 or something ?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<pygi> ogra, :P
<highvoltage> pygi: after the cookbook is complete, do you plan on doing additional modules/writings for it?
<JaneW> pygi: I would just caution you to be aware of not being too demanding at times, and to realise that sometimes there are priorities. So people can't always get to your task immediately. I do think you know this though.
<pygi> highvoltage, yup, ofcourse, improving cookbook is always there :) We even plan on publishing "How to cook Edgy Edubuntu?" :)
<JaneW> pygi: I have been very impressed with you taking the Cookbook on and actually getting something done with that (and many thanks to HedgeMage for that too)
<jsgotangco> pygi: out of curiousity rather than edubuntu related, what's your plan on n-m?
* jsgotangco sorry had to ask that
<pygi> JaneW, ofcourse, no worries :)
<pygi> jsgotangco, Keybuk said we wont provide further integration, and considering I am not any kind of uploader, I cant do much with it currently :(
<LaserJock> pygi: did you start with the EdubuntuCookbook when you started the How to cook Edubuntu doc?
<JaneW> pygi: and thanks for all the help with the SoC application reviewing etc, I know it took a lot of your time, so thanks for being ever willing with that :))
<ogra> LaserJock, the are the same 
<ogra> *they
<ogra> EdubuntuCookbook is just the old name
<pygi> LaserJock, "How To Cook Edubuntu?" = Edubuntu Cookbook ;)
<LaserJock> ogra: umm, you sure? They didn't look the same to me
<pygi> JaneW, thank you ;)
<JaneW> pygi: I think if you can manage to become a MOTU that will help a lot, and you will become that much more useful to ogra
<lucasvo> Amaranth: I started using linux when 4.10 was already released, but I first used Suse then switched to ubuntu in 5.04
* highvoltage thinks the ? at the end of How to cook edubuntu is a bit strane :)
<HedgeMage> umm, what's MOTU ?
<mhz> Amaranth: I did
<LaserJock> HedgeMage: wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<ogra> HedgeMage, masters of the universe
<cbx33> Master of the Universe HedgeMage 
<lucasvo> HedgeMage: master of the universe
<pygi> highvoltage, hehe :)
<HedgeMage> ahh
<ogra> HedgeMage, the universe maintainers
<mhz> Amaranth: I did started ubuntu stuff with warty
<ogra> mhz, he meant linux stuff :)
<ogra> in general
<LaserJock> pygi: have you talked to the doc team about the cookbook?
<Amaranth> before warty i only knew enough about linux to chmod stuff so it would work with CGI :P
<pygi> LaserJock, ofcourse :)
<mhz> ogra: i noticed right after <enter>
<mhz> :(
<ogra> :)
* mhz is also one handed and one-eye it seems :)
<Amaranth> then i started looking for up-to-date gnome packages for debian and saw something about ubuntu (i think on slashdot) :)
<pygi> jsgotangco, perhaps we'll see if we can integrate more n-m if new upstream product is out in edgy timeframe
<ogra> mhz, so do you want to help out the a11y team with testing while youre that handicapped ? 
<pygi> I contacted upstream about it
<mhz> ogra: lol!
<jsgotangco> pygi: cool the current one is amazing already just wanted to give kudos =)
<ogra> pygi, whats your vision beyond s-c-p for edubuntu development ? 
<ogra> any specific direction you'd like to move in development wise ?
<mhz> pygi: I have read some many parts of the cookbook, not all yet, but yeah, great !
<ogra> (or education wise even)
<JaneW> pygi: also will you be advocating edubuntu in your local community?
<pygi> ogra,  I'd like to get more involved in this LTSP stuff so we  could improve it, and working on HUB *which is not just edubuntu related* for backup stuff
<ogra> cool
<pygi> JaneW, ofcourse, see wiki :P
<pygi> ogra, if you agree ofcourse :)
<jsgotangco> ogra: are you still pursuing ltsp-manager?
<lucasvo> pygi: it's free software :)
<pygi> jsgotangco, yup
<ogra> jsgotangco, its a spec now :)
<jsgotangco> cool hoping to merge soon then
<Amaranth> that reminds me, i need to get my local LUG to stop meeting in bars so i can pitch edubuntu to the department of education IT guy :)
<JaneW> pygi: right, doing so
<ogra> pygi, what about diva ? it isnt packaged yet in ubuntu ?
<highvoltage> diva?
<pygi> ogra, no, it isnt packaged because we currently require CVS dependencies
<Amaranth> video editor
<ogra> highvoltage, see his wikipage
<pygi> but that will change in a release that is to happen in like 3 days
<highvoltage> ah
<jsgotangco> l337 mono-based video editor
<Amaranth> was a SoC project last year, it's awesome (or will be)
<pygi> Amaranth, it's is more then awesome ;)
<pygi> 0.0.3 is mini revolution ;)
<ogra> seems liek a good motu entry project then ;)
<ogra> *like
<pygi> ogra, indeed ;)
<LaserJock> yes
<ogra> has anybody additional questions or is anybody missing an answer or shall we vote ?
<HedgeMage> I'm all for voting :)
* highvoltage is good
* jsgotangco gives +1 and second mentions awesome SoC work
<mhz> Can I make a question to pygi ?
<ogra> sure
<HedgeMage> so do I get to vote? or am I too new?
* highvoltage gives +1, and props to good doc work
<ogra> HedgeMage, only the 5 council members may actually vote, but non council members may cheer :)
<LaserJock> doh, I had 1 question left, can I ask it?
<mhz> pygi: how many teachers in your local community may get involvd in Edubuntu?
<HedgeMage> ogra: ahh okay
* HedgeMage cheers
<ogra> LaserJock, sure
* HedgeMage tries to look less clueless
<pygi> mhz, just 2 for now actually :-/ I am talking with other schools tho, and they seem willing to make the switch
<mhz> pygi: i reprhrase.. Have you talked to teachers in your local comm.?
<pygi> mhz, yup
<LaserJock> pygi: why are you seeking membership through Edubuntu as opposed to Ubuntu?
* cbx33 cheers LOUDLY
<mhz> pygi: thx.
<pygi> LaserJock, not sure actually, does it matter anyway? :)
<pygi> I mostly contribute to Edubuntu lately anyway
<mhz> \o/ \o/ \o/ for pygi 
* HedgeMage cheers for pygi 
* JaneW votes +1, thanks for the hard work so far, and keep it up.
<mhz> pygi: I am currently looking for teachers to read CookBook, that's the reason to the question :)
* ogra votes +1 based on well... everything 
<LaserJock> pygi: it does matter in a way, to me anyway
<pygi> LaserJock, hm, well, as I said, was mostly involved in Edubuntu lately except from that network manager stuff
<jsgotangco> yes
<pygi> and was bugging edubuntu people most :)
<JaneW> heh
<jsgotangco> but you made a lot of people happy with n-m
<LaserJock> pygi: ok, fine
<lucasvo> n-m?
<pygi> LaserJock, tell if I should explain more :)
<cbx33> network ager
<cbx33> manager
<lucasvo> ah
<mhz> m+
<Amaranth> is EM status enough to be MOTU?
<mhz> heheh
<HedgeMage> mhz: I already have teachers lined up :D
<Amaranth> or do you need UM too?
<ogra> Amaranth, yep, its enough
<ogra> UM is contained in EM
<ogra> :)
<Amaranth> neat
<highvoltage> Amaranth: you have to either be an EM or UM member to apply for MOTU, but being an EM member != motu member
<mhz> HedgeMage: cool, that is key to Edubuntu real success, computer guys are easier to get happy with Edubuntu
<Amaranth> i'm a signed key away from being an ubuntu member :P
<HedgeMage> mhz: yep
<Amaranth> for about 18 months or so now :/
<LaserJock> +1 from me for sustained and substantial contribution to both Ubuntu and Edubuntu communities
<Amaranth> maybe 12
<HedgeMage> mhz: I recruited my mom and a few of her teacher friends... won't have them until school gets out in the next week or so, though
<ogra> yay
<Amaranth> </random>
<lucasvo> Amaranth: signed key?
<ogra> welcome pygi !
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: that sounded soooo EC-like
<pygi> thanks ogra ;)
<Amaranth> lucasvo: need to get my key signed so i can sign the CoC
<lucasvo> ah
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I try ;-)
<ogra> Amaranth, we'll find someone over time ...
<mhz> HedgeMage: good, there is a mini survey I would like to pass on to them (oops, in spanish but can get it into english soon)
<highvoltage> Amaranth: you don't need your key signed to sign the CoC
<Amaranth> highvoltage: err
<ogra> highvoltage, you do
<HedgeMage> mhz: yeah, I'd need a translation to English first :)
<JaneW> also we need more ppl blogging about edubuntu, reviewing it and getting it mentioned in the press...
* HedgeMage nods
<LaserJock> I don't think you have to have a signed key to sign the CoC
* mhz closes his mouth again until meeting is over
<mhz> (at least about non-meeting stuff
<highvoltage> hmmm... i just used my normal gpg key and it worked (perhaps i'm not understanding properly)
<Amaranth> LaserJock: you do, otherwise I could create a key saying I'm Mark Shuttleworth and sign it
<JaneW> highvoltage: you are right
<pygi> JaneW, slowly things are changing :)
<JaneW> I signed the COC with my brand new key before it was signed (I THINK)
<ogra> highvoltage, in any case you cant upload with an unsigned key, if LP accepts unsigned keys for CoC signing, thats a bug
<LaserJock> Amaranth: and you could sign the CoC with it
<HedgeMage> That's why I wanted to use my regular key (signed by many people) not the new one, but I can always sign again
<highvoltage> ogra: i think that might be the case, hey
<mhz> JaneW: I got my second edubuntu article in 900 print outs :)
<Amaranth> LaserJock: that's what i meant
<JaneW> I actually physically signed the CoC in ink at first!
<JaneW> mhz: well done!!
<Amaranth> LaserJock: I could create a key with sabdfl's name and sign the CoC with it
<mhz> JaneW: well, that would be about 400 schools only
<LaserJock> Amaranth: right, and there is nothing stopping you from doing that
<jenda> whoa... really? I don't have a signed key, and I'm applying for membership...
<Amaranth> LaserJock: but if i have to be in the PGP trusted set to sign the CoC that doesn't work
<ogra> wow, we actually filled 1h i wouldnt have expected that without having our general agenda 
<HedgeMage> lol
<ogra> is there any other business ?
<Amaranth> because before someone signs my sabdfl key they look at my ID card
<JaneW> ogra: we do tend to chat ;)
<HedgeMage> none here
<lucasvo> did you already vote?
<ogra> lucasvo, ages ago :)
* highvoltage is good for bed
<lucasvo> I think I missed that
<lucasvo> :)
<HedgeMage> night night highvoltage 
* JaneW congratulates HedgeMage and pygi again
* jsgotangco is good to go back to bed
<HedgeMage> :D
<HedgeMage> thanks!
<Amaranth> and they say "you're not sabdfl!" and punch me in the face
<cbx33> congrats everyone
<ogra> if nobody has any extra topics, we'll clonse then :)
<lucasvo> at least I have school late tomorrow
<pygi> thanks JaneW ;)
* Amaranth stops talking
<cbx33> <-----------------------meeting notes end here-------------------------------------->
<jsgotangco> mm 5am still have time to sleep
<highvoltage> meeting clonsed then?
<highvoltage> :p
* JaneW goes to watch the end of Team America before bed
<highvoltage> JaneW: it has finished already
<pygi> enjoy JaneW ;)
<HedgeMage> lol have fun
<JaneW> since the meeting is clonse
<mhz> JaneW: then, dont enjoy :)
<ogra> cbx33, wanna draw the line ? 
<JaneW> highvoltage: taped it
<highvoltage> goodnight everyone
<mhz> oh
<jsgotangco> ciao and congrats
<mhz> nn
<jenda> Are you all sure one needs a signed key? please? ;)
<lucasvo> night
<lucasvo> I only tried with a signed key
<pygi> jenda, for CoC, nop, you dont need
<ogra> night all
<pygi> night ogra 
<JaneW> night
<jenda> and for membership?
<jenda> (night to the quitters ;) )
<pygi> jenda, nop
<pygi> but for MOTU you need signed
<pygi> night JaneW ;)
<Amaranth> mako told me i needed a signed key
<jenda> Ok, *whew*
<Amaranth> for CoC
<jenda> Amaranth: perhaps you have special status ;)
<pygi> Amaranth, nop, LP has a bug :P
<mako> Amaranth: that was a very long time ago, the process was a little different then
<ogra> pygi, you need a signed key, if not thats a bug that needs to be fixed in LP
<jsgotangco> mako: congrats dude! nice pics!
<pygi> ogra, well, it is a bug :P
<ogra> yep 
<mako> jsgotangco: thanks :)
<ogra> mako, yeah, congrats !!!
* jsgotangco goes back to sleep
<pygi> ogra, not sure if there is such report tho
<jsgotangco> mako: although seeing you in a white suit is rather new to me, but good nonetheless
<jenda> Ah, mako... the one to ask ;) 1) congrats 2) does one need a signed key to become a member?
<pygi> jenda, NO, but thats a bug
<lucasvo> please carry on in #edubuntu
* jenda is all nervous about that...
<pygi> we told you already :P
<LaserJock> ogra: you sure that's a bug. It isn't easy to get a key properly signed some times
<jenda> pygi: I know you did, but several people have said different things...
<mako> no, you have never *needed* a signed key to become a member
<mako> some people have signed the CoC over FAX
<jenda> Thank you... that's what i needed to hear.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jenda> See you next CC meeting then ;)
<LaserJock> hehe
<ogra> LaserJock, well, i'd consider it a bug, since i see no reason to have something signed with an unsigned key
<lucasvo> LaserJock: a signed key is just a key with several cross signatures?
<Amaranth> lucasvo: a key signed by someone in the PGP trusted set
<mako> right, in the past, i've put people through a bit of work to explain why they couldn't have a signed key
* mhz remembers it took like 3 days to get a key signed
<jenda> ogra: it still guarantees it's the same person who uses the key elsewhere (or group of people)
<lucasvo> Amaranth: hm, and who is in the pgp trusted set?
<mako> i had to take a train out of state to get my first key signed, so i'm not particularly sympathetic
<ogra> how would i know its the same person if the key wasnt signed to approve that its the same person ? 
<Amaranth> lucasvo: people who have had their key signed by someone in the trusted set :P
<mako> jenda: the network of trust is important, if you're going to sit it out, you should at least have a very good reason
<lucasvo> Amaranth: hm, how can one find out?
<lucasvo> if one is in the trusted set?
<Amaranth> http://biglumber.com/ can help you find people to sign your key
<jenda> mako: I'm not saying it isn't - and I'm intending to get it singed, but it wouldn't be easy for me before the next meeting.
<Amaranth> there are tools to see if you can trace a path from your key to, say, ogra's
<mako> jenda: it's only two weeks
<jenda> indeed.
<jenda> I'll try.
<ogra> mako, four for edubuntu :)
* mako nods
<mhz> Amaranth: actually, there is a wiki howto both in spanish and english
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-08
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Jun 08:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<shawarma> @schedule copenhagen
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board
<dragonco> ...
<freeflying|away> @schedule Shanghai
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 08 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 21:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 01:00: Documentation Team | 21 Jun 04:00: Technical Board
<x92> Hello!
<jenda> hello x92
<x92> New project by Ubuntu :)        Xubuntu 6.06 (Dapper Drake)
<jenda> hm?
<x92> http://www.xubuntu.org/
<x92> I want to try it out... maybe THIS works on my server mahine :) because Ubuntu 5.10 and 5.05 doesn't work on it :S only Windows systems are working on my server machine
<jenda> x92: could I ask you to join the channel #xubuntu ?
<x92> okay!
<jenda> They will probably be able to help you better there - I'm in there too, if you need me.
<x92> but can i get support for ubuntu on this channel?
<jenda> Not really - this channel serves for meetings - #ubuntu is the main support channel.
<x92> aha...okay
<x92> when the meeting will come :P
<jenda> The schedule of meetings is here: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 08 Jun 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board
<jenda> x92: there is a VERY important meeting here in 23 minutes.
<x92> Okay I will be here !!
<x92> but...
<x92> (event)
<x92> Ubuntu Development Team Meeting
<x92> Start: 08:00
<x92> End: 09:30
<x92> time is 10:37 here :D
<jenda> where is here?
<x92> estonia
<x92> GMT +2
<jenda> @schedule Tallinn
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Tallinn: 08 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 14 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 20:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 23:00: Technical Board
<x92> aha...okay :D
<jenda> OK, x92, I don't want to sound rude, but the meeting coming up is an Ubuntu development meeting - and since neither of us is a dev - I'd suggest we don't disturb, OK? :)
<x92> shure :) i just watch the smart talking :P
* jenda will too
<dholbach> good morning
<G0SUB> hello, dholbach :)
<dholbach> heya G0SUB
<mvo> hello G0SUB! how is your project going?
<G0SUB> mvo: you know better :)
<mvo> G0SUB: haha :)
<ajmitch> G0SUB: almost finished then? :)
<G0SUB> ajmitch: heh, no. just about to start in fact :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<mdz> good morning folks
<sladen> x92: just  sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop on your server box
<mvo> hello mdz!
<mdz> everyone here?
<ajmitch> hi mdz 
<dholbach> hello
<siretart> hi
<Mithrandir> EHLO
<fabbione> morning
<Kamion> morning
<Fujitsu> -ERR
<pitti> hello
<x92> sladen: okay.. downloading ;)
<mdz> Keybuk,seb128,doko,heno,infinity,sfllaw,BenC,ogra,iwj,Riddell: ping
<iwj> Hello.
<dholbach> mdz: seb128 is on holidays.
<sfllaw> mdz: Pong.
<mdz> dholbach: oh, yes
<doko> mdz: pong
<mdz> JaneW: anyone other than seb128 not expected?
<JaneW> mdz: not afaik
<mdz> dholbach: could you ring ogra?
<dholbach> mdz: i will do that
<mdz> Kamion: could you try riddell and keybuk?
<Kamion> ok
<mdz> SMSed Ben
<mdz> Kamion: oh, heno is in your calling radius as well
<Kamion> Keybuk's phone is ringing ... and ringing ... and ringing
<dholbach> I left a message on ogra's mobile.
<mdz> the UK has one of the most reasonable times for this particular meeting, ironically
<Kamion> I think Keybuk was up late driving edgy
<Mithrandir> Scott logged off at around ~0300 last night, so he could well be sleeping.
<Mithrandir> (0300 his local time)
<infinity> Yeah, Scott was up late wrangling the opening of edgy with me.
<mdz> dholbach: care to start us off?
<dholbach> this week (done): gnome 2.14 updates to dapper-updates, bugtriage, general catching up
<dholbach> this week (todo): gnome 2.15 and merging, more bug triage, writing specs
<dholbach> next week: gnome 2.15 and merging, more bug triage
<mdz> dholbach: how are you doing on your specs for paris?
<Kamion> left messages for Keybuk and Riddell; phoning heno
<dholbach> mdz: starting off and have some plans with Michael - but not much progress yet
<Kamion> heno will be with us shortly
<mdz> everyone should have a substantial number of specs (say 5-8) for Paris by the end of the week (i.e. tomorrow)
<mdz> if you're short of ideas, please talk to me sooner rather than later :-)
<mvo> should we try to limit ourself to 5-8? or is it ok to have ... more :) ?
<mdz> mvo: more is always fine, though it's not clear how many it will be possible to schedule
<Mithrandir> would it be possible to get a bunch of the old spec suggestions removed too?
<mdz> Mithrandir: removed from where?
<Mithrandir> the spec tracker in LP
<Mithrandir> there are some there which are bogus
<mdz> I don't think so
<mdz> the idea is that we should only need to pay attention to specs which are targeted for a release or a meeting
<mdz> and that the list of all specs will be a swamp
<mdz> but feel free to mail launchpad with suggestions
<heno> sorry for being late
<Keybuk> mdz: re e-mail, I had deliberately left one spec not added to the meeting, because I think it's edgy+1
<mdz> dholbach: are you confident about meeting that target?
<dholbach> mdz: I'll get cracking on it with full speed
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks dholbach
<mdz> doko: next?
<doko> - this week (monday bank holidy)
<doko> - toolchain updates for edgy
<doko> - openoffice.org: preparing 2.0.2 l10n packages for dapper, rosetta discussions with carlos, preparing 2.0.3 for edgy, builds for amd64 again (no java, gtk crashes, must be gtk bug).
<doko> - SoC bug
<doko> - need to do: specs, SoC
<mdz> doko: 2.0.2 l10n packages?
<mdz> hmm
<pitti> doko: erm, we don't have bank holidays in .de :) (that was Pentecost)
<fabbione> * doko has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) <-
<mdz> indeed
<mdz> we'll come back to him when he reconnects
<mdz> fabbione: you're up
<fabbione> * sparc: working on t1000. Got it installed yesterday and helping davem to get his box up for full speed d
<fabbione> ebugging. got access to the 4 core Niagara today.
<fabbione> * specs: most of the specs i will be working are leftovers from dapper. Need to remove dust from them. Unl
<fabbione> ikely to have them all ready by deadline.
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: updated ocfs2 and working on GFS2 userland (kernel is already done) while waiting for sp
<fabbione> arcs to reboot or build kernels..
<fabbione> * last week: release, release party, drunk, drunk.. more drunk.. more drunkness.. fun.. profit, sparc, spa
<fabbione> rc64, more profit..
<fabbione> * next week: sparc till dapper release. 
<Kamion> fabbione: hand over some of the profit
<mdz> fabbione: since you'll be working on your specs remotely and not at the meeting, the deadline is not as critical.  the sparc work is more important of course
<fabbione> Kamion: ehehe
<doko> sorry, daily disconnect from my provider
<fabbione> mdz: yeps.. i will still be coordinating with jbailey, neuralis and infinity.
<fabbione> mdz: they will be my gw for some of the specs
<mdz> fabbione: for your specs, just target them to dapper rather than adding to Paris
<mdz> fabbione: unless you really need us to talk about them without you
<Mithrandir> s/dapper/edgy/, I guess?
<infinity> s/dapper/edgy/?
<fabbione> mdz: some of them are shared, like cluster, server and mubuntu
<mdz> yes, edgy
<fabbione> mdz: people can still talk.. i will find a way to be "there"
* Keybuk hands fabbione a headset
<fabbione> Keybuk: i have one ;)
<fabbione> theoretically..
<fabbione> anyway
<fabbione> mdz: will do as much as possible.. sparc first
<mdz> fabbione: if they aren't proposed for Paris by the deadline it will be problematic to schedule them; if they really need to be discussed there then ask the people who will be there to help get them entered so you can continue on sparc
<doko> fabbione: you did mention this week some sparc toolchain issues?
<fabbione> mdz: ok will do.
<mdz> fabbione: thanks
<fabbione> doko: let's take this on -toolchain
<fabbione> mdz: thanks to you
<mdz> doko: now that you're back...you mentioned about 2.0.2 l10n for dapper?  I thought dapper already had 2.0.2 l10n
<mdz> doko: disconnected again?
<doko> mdz; it has, but including the import from rosetta, there are some conversion problems, and currently a build problem, because we do not scale with the number of language packs
<mdz> doko: 2.0.2-2ubuntu5 seemed to build
<doko> mdz: -ubuntu12 not yet
<doko> 2.0.2-2ubuntu5 doesn't have the updates from rosetta
<mdz> doko: is -l10n actually any different between ubuntu5 and ubuntu12?
<mdz> I see
<mdz> doko: what is "SoC bug'?
<doko> mdz: hrm, nothing, just the to do line :-/
<mdz> doko: meaning SoC mentoring?   what is the 'bug'?
<JaneW> doko: you can;t call SoC a bug! :P
<G0SUB> lol
<doko> mdz: sorry, please ignore that line
<mdz> ...ok
<mdz> heno: next?
<heno>  * Websites: gave ubuntu.com a minor facelift and tidying up
<heno>  * Accessibility: working on lots of new specs, SoC, website section, support section in the forums. We are starting to see a trickle of users now trying it out and seeking 
<heno> support
<mdz> heno: are you more or less finished proposing specs for paris, or have more planned?
<heno> all done :)
<mdz> ok, great
<heno> I realise there were quite a few this time
<mdz> heno: did you receive the email I CCed you on regarding the forums (from sounder I think(?
<heno> yes, there are social and technical aspects
<heno> with the technical being fairly easy
<heno> coordinating tabs and such
<mdz> we seem to have one forums person in paris
<mdz> not necessarily someone who deals with the infrastructure, though; they say they are a moderator
<JaneW> yes Roald Hopman
<heno> I have a good communication with the forum staff on the social level as well though, so I can help there
<mdz> we should slot in at least one discussion about how to encourage more crossover between the forums and other parts of the community
<mdz> heno: could you register a spec to ensure that goes on the agenda?
<heno> mdz: yes
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> infinity: next?
<infinity> last week: lots of tete-a-tete with soyuz folk about correctly closing dapper, and getting edgy open.  Also got dapper-updates (soyuz) and dapper-security (dak) live and mostly happy.
<infinity> this week: opening edgy with a full toolchain bootstrap, then letting open the floodgates for building everything else uploaded, then catching up on some less critical security backlog.
<silbs> mdz: one of the reasons to get forum people in Paris was to discuss forums governance. Mark and I have talked about this with Ryan Troy in the past, just tryingt omove things forward. Do you need a spec registered for that?
<mdz> silbs: I suppose we can schedule things manually, but putting in a spec is the best way to ensure that it won't be overlooked (and it'd be a good idea to write up the outcome anyway, provide a means for people to subscribe to participate, etc.)
<mdz> infinity: specs for Paris?
<infinity> mdz: What if there's nothing other than "run the infrastructure nearly full time and maintain my pet packages" that really interests me?
<infinity> mdz: I'll poke neuralis about some ubuntu-server spec stuff, though.
<mdz> infinity: if you'll be around after the meeting, let's talk about it
<infinity> Since I intend to still own that.
* infinity nods.
<infinity> Do let's.
<mdz> ok, thanks
<infinity> I'm here all night making sure edgy opens.
<mdz> iwj: next?
<iwj> last week: release testing.  firefox themes.  chasing ancient dpkg bug with >=2 cargo cult wrong fixes (46530 etc.)
<iwj> this week: firefox 1.5.0.4.  investigating breezy ff security options.  Thinking about edgy; I hadn't realised the target was 5-8 specs; I'll take a more shallow approach.
<iwj> todo: investigate some ff 1.5.0.4 for breezy-security.  Firm up, write up and register some of these spec ideas.  When will the decisions about prioritisation be taken ?
<mdz> infinity: it can't be night for you; it's night for me ;-)
<Kamion> iwj: prioritisation> next week
<infinity> mdz: It'll be night when I'm done. :)
<Kamion> iwj: see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2006-June/000145.html
<mdz> iwj: for the deadline, all you need are abstracts for discussion topics
<iwj> Right.  But if I really want to push something I need to beef up the rationale ASAP.
<mdz> iwj: in edgy, please merge the human firefox theme as default; once it's been tested in edgy, sabdfl wants it backported to dapper
<iwj> mdz: That will mean having a different firefox in dapper-updates and dapper-security.
<mdz> iwj: or merging the change into -security
<iwj> Indeed.
<iwj> I'm not sure how our users would feel about us doing a theme update in -security.
<mdz> I expect that we have few if any desktop users who use -security without -updates, to be honest
<Kamion> by sabdfl's own definitions, doing that in -security would be wrong ;-)
<mdz> and almost as few non-desktop users
<Fujitsu> I'm both a server and desktop user, and I always have both :)
<mdz> Kamion: I did discuss it with him in fact
<Kamion> 18:30 < sabdfl>  - enable -security only (very stable, only security updates)
<mdz> Kamion: what was the context there?
<Kamion> -security vs. -security+-updates vs. -security+-updates+-proposed-updates
<Kamion> #launchpad yesterday
<mdz> we've routinely merged non-security bugfixes into -security to avoid duplicating work
<pitti> not that often, but indeed we did
<pitti> but only for small critical bug fixes without impact on the UI
<mdz> anyway, thanks iwj
<mdz> iwj: you'll be around after the meeting as well, yes?
<iwj> Just to be clear:
<iwj> mdz: yes
<iwj> I don't really think this is a very good idea, but obviously I don't want to argue with sabdfl.  So AIUI I'm instructed to push the theme change into -security ?
<pitti> iwj: but let's do the initial 1.5.0.4 update ASAP, without the theme change for now
<mdz> pitti++
<iwj> pitti: Absolutely.
<iwj> In fact, it was uploaded earlier during the meeting.
<mdz> iwj: you're welcome to roll a security+theme package for -updates, but keeping that up over 5 years sounds uninteresting
<iwj> doorbell
<mdz> ok
<mdz> JaneW: next?
<iwj> back
<infinity> TBH, firefox enjoys a rather lax security policy ANYWAY, so one more change in -security isn't likely to make people take notice in the least.
<JaneW> Did:
<JaneW> -SoC: Admin tasks, final mapping of students to mentors, communicating between students and mentors, and google, looking for a SoC admin replacement, any volunteers??? (doko?)
<JaneW> -Mailing Lists: catching up on back log and unsubscribing from those no longer relevant.
<JaneW> -Edubuntu: Attended last EC meeting, and appointed 2 new Edubuntu Members, Edubuntu 6.06 released and is doing great on the distrowatch charts - thanks to ogra. Have been handing over my Edbuntu Admin tasks as appropriate.
<JaneW> -UDS Paris: Invited sponsored guests. Communicated with all guests to facilitate bookings and preferences, prepared spreadsheets and handed these to clan to take over.
<JaneW> - Have been really knocked by flu and a sinus infection this week.
<JaneW> To Do:
<JaneW> -Finalising everything. This is my last week :(
<JaneW> -Assisting with LP spec registering and Edubuntu as required etc.
<JaneW> Please let me know if I need to do anything for anyone?
<JaneW> mdz: how do you want this meeting recorded for instance?
<JaneW> Finally: Thanks to everyone for the most fantastic opportunity, it has been an honor and privileged to have worked with you all!
<Kamion> thanks for everything
<Keybuk> JaneW: thank you!
* jsgotangco claps for JaneW 
* pitti gives JaneW a big hug and thanks her
<Keybuk> JaneW: for everything you've done
<mdz> JaneW: a brief summary for the weekly newsletter and a link to the log would be great
* Fujitsu applauds JaneW.
<doko> JaneW: thanks!
<Kamion> any volunteers for meeting secretary in the future?
<dholbach> yeah, thank you very much, JaneW
<Fujitsu> Where are you going? :(
<JaneW> mdz: right, thanks
* mvo gives JaneW a big hug and wishes her all the best
<JaneW> thanks everyone.
<doko> JaneW: well, it would be nice to have you as some kind of backup for the SoC work
<JaneW> and drink Amarula in Paris!
<Mithrandir> JaneW: where would we get that from when you're not coming?
<JaneW> doko: I think we can arrange that, I'd like to stay in touch with it anyway
<JaneW> Mithrandir: duty free ;)
<mdz> JaneW: we'll miss you and your Amarula both ;-)
<fabbione> JaneW: take lady.. 
<fabbione> and if you need anything.. you know where the godfather is
<mdz> heno: could you take over summarizing our meetings for the newsletter starting next week?
<heno> mdz: yes, should be fine
<mdz> JaneW: apart from that and SoC, is there anything else on your list which hasn't been handed off yet?
<mdz> heno: great, thanks
<doko> JaneW: as long as nobody volunteers, I'm going to do that (at least you already did start briefing ;-P)
<JaneW> mdz: not really besides some UDS stuff, and the specs etc, the edubuntu team has been great at volunteering
<mdz> JaneW: claire n. should be handling the remainder of the summit planning, yes?
<JaneW> mdz: and the meeting reminders etc... bt it is on the fridge, so it's pretty bot-like
<JaneW> mdz: yes except for the stuff silbs has asked me to do
<mdz> JaneW: the stuff silbs asked you to do, is doable by the end of the week?
<JaneW> mdz: also there's the e-mail I receive I will handle it and/or forward it as appropriate as it comes in
<JaneW> mdz: I did remove my address as the reference on the various wiki pages I had added it to
<mdz> JaneW: are you feeling any better?
<JaneW> mdz: I hope so yes, I just read the message properly this morning, I am not sure I understand the team speak requirement, but am going to try to find out...
<mdz> JaneW: if you could forward me a copy, that'd be appreciated
<JaneW> mdz: I get a bit better during the day, but at night and in the morning I feel really rotten. I really hope the worst is over now . Thanks.
<mdz> I've developed sinus infections as a complication of cold/flu before, no fun
<mdz> thanks JaneW, and all the best
<mdz> Kamion: next?
<Kamion> misc: Huge amounts of bugmail, mostly Ubiquity. Preparing specs for Paris (done five, pondering revive-tasksel); ubiquity-advanced-partitioner prompted by aforementioned flood of bugmail. Various dapper-updates uploads, more to come. Will start on the big d-i merge today, probably (blocked on merging packaging toolchain).
<Kamion> migration-assistance: (This is my student's GSoC project.) I've seen an initial code drop and done a design and minimal code review on it; basic approach is mostly sound and I'm happy with his progress so far.
<Kamion> next-week: On holiday.
<JaneW> Kamion: enjoy your holiday - is it not your anniversary then (or soon?)
<fabbione> Kamion: am i still allowed to SMS you if we get the sparc bugs fixed?
<fabbione> Kamion:  i am sure i can handle up to testing cdimages.. but for final release i think i will need your 31337 sk1775
<Kamion> JaneW: couple of months, this is just a random holidday
<Kamion> fabbione: I will be nowhere near a computer
<fabbione> Kamion: ok.. have fun1
<Mithrandir> fabbione: I can do releases for you.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: on releases.ubuntu.com ?
<Kamion> I can run Mithrandir through what needs to happen; it's a bit weird and will need manual assistance
<Mithrandir> that's just a mirror of lithium.
<Kamion> the scripts will get a few things wrong
<mdz> Kamion: if you can do a dry run with Mithrandir before you go, that'd be good
<fabbione> Kamion, Mithrandir: up to you two.. i can't even be 100% sure evything will be fixed
<Kamion> will do
<Kamion> um, we need to discuss other things, but #ubuntu-devel after the meeting
<mdz> ok, thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: next?
<Kamion> fabbione: (SMS is fine, BTW, as long as you don't demand an answer within the hour :-))
<Keybuk> (this week) MoM: Working on a new source grabbing method for mom, instead of relying on external morgues.  Currently finding all sources that I can for the backlog.
<Keybuk> (this week) edgy: Prepared new udev, module-init-tools and usplash packages.
<Keybuk> (this week) dapper: Fixed the pcmcia-cs utils bug harder *ahem*
<Keybuk> (next week) specs: finish off spec drafts and get them on the wiki
<Keybuk> (next week) edgy: Fix upstream's also-broken udev device enumeration
<fabbione> Kamion: don't worry.. i expect you to have fun :) not to be ready for me :)
<mdz> Keybuk: how much luck are you having finding the missing sources?
<Keybuk> mdz: I'm using several different archives; won't know what the hit/miss rate is until it's finished though
<Keybuk> hopefully it'll be good enough
<mdz> Keybuk: do we have a plan for the future so that we're sure to keep copies of what we need?
<mdz> or is that tbd in paris?
<Keybuk> mdz: my plan for the future is that Launchpad should do it
<infinity> The future plan is to import sid into LP.
<mdz> that's unlikely to start happening before the merge starts
<mdz> unless you know something I don't
<siretart> infinity: do you plan to have chroots on the buildds for sid?
<infinity> siretart: No, we're not BUILDING sid, we'll be importing a read-only copy.
<siretart> I was rather thinking about personal package archives
<Keybuk> mdz: you didn't specify the constraint for "future" :p
<mdz> Keybuk: "edgy"
<Keybuk> mdz: edgy plans are to use the scripts I've written
<Keybuk> they basically keep our own equivalent of snapshot.dn
<Keybuk> but without history we don't need or binaries
<mdz> ok, so once we've filled in the gaps, they should give us what we need going forward
<Keybuk> yeah
<mdz> wfm
<mdz> Keybuk: thanks
<mdz> Mithrandir: next?
<Mithrandir> misc: post-release cleanups, thinking and writing up specs for Eft.  Public holiday, getting started on SoC mentoring
<Mithrandir> next week: more spec preparation, get my space bar fixed so I stop losing spaces, start uploading syncs again, more SoC mentoring
<mdz> Mithrandir: are you confident about getting 5-8 specs in for Paris by the end of the week?
<Mithrandir> yes
<pitti> Mithrandir: HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!
<mdz> OH
<Mithrandir> I'm picking some off your suggestions list as well as drawing from a bunch of my own too.
<Mithrandir> pitti: thanks. :-)
<mdz> happy birthday indeed
* dholbach hugs Mithrandir!
* mvo hugs Mithrandir
* sfllaw hugs Mithrandir.
<mdz> doko just had one as well
* ogra hugs Mithrandir 
<mdz> and elmo!
* ogra hugs as well :)
<dholbach> doko: HAPPY BIRTHDAY - when is the party? :-)
* dholbach hugs doko
<mdz> goodness, we need to get these on the fridge calendar ;-)
<pitti> doko: happy belated birthday!!
<Mithrandir> thanks everybody. 
* mvo hugs doko
<ogra> mdz++ :)
<doko> thank you :)
<sfllaw> mdz: Yes, we should.
* sfllaw hugs doko.
<mdz> Mithrandir: ok, thanks
<mdz> mvo: next?
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> (monday  Pentecost)
<mvo> - some 3rd party packages work/review
<mvo> - SoC/spec work
<mvo> - apt work (ddtp)
<mvo> - smart work (apt-channel-sync)
<mvo> - bug triage
<mvo> Will do:
<mvo> - preparing specs for paris (including resurrecting some dapper ones)
<mvo> - more 3rd party app work
<mdz> mvo: do you have enough spec ideas to occupy you in Paris?
<mdz> if not I have all sorts of ideas for you :-)
<mvo> mdz: yes, I'm confident in this :)
<mvo> (both that you have enough ideas for both of us and that I will be able to have enough specs)
<mdz> mvo: there seem to be at least two things being called 3rd party now
<mvo> ?
<mdz> our vendor-oriented repositories, and the install-packages-via-browser magic
<mvo> oh, ok. "3rd party packages" means for me review/mail for the vendor repository
<mdz> which wasabi has been talking about
<mdz> one of them should be renamed to avoid confusion
<mvo> ok
<mdz> you and he can fight it out ;-)
* mvo wins
<mdz> his is apt-third-party I think
<mdz> mvo: thanks
<mdz> ogra: next?
<ogra> * general: preparing a fix for missing cursors in edubuntu-artwork, discussing specs, preparing the merge of debians ltsp branch, packing g-s-s 2.14.2, SoC (willow spec changes)
<ogra> g
<ogra> * next-week: initial packaging of ltsp manager, more ltsp work (lots of changes in debian), preparing for paris, finishing spec writing and selecting edubuntu and ltsp specs
<mdz> ogra: ltsp manager? is that the gui configurator?
<ogra> yep
<ogra> it has also a spec, so i can work "officially" on it :)
<mdz> ogra: are you going to tackle the dhcp configuration issue and/or local devices for edgy?
<ogra> local dev is my highs priority indeed
<ogra> and the dhcp conf issue is at least solved for new installs in my local branch (in the udeb)
<ogra> *highest
<mdz> ogra: ok, if any further discussion is needed about dhcp, please get it on the agenda for paris.  if you'd like to send me a diff to review, I'll look over it
<ogra> ok, first i need to  get the debian changes in
<mdz> I think the best approach would be for that file to stop being a conffile in dhcp3
<ogra> the branch is pretty mixed up
<ogra> thats the minimal requirement, yes
<mdz> ok, thanks
<iwj> ogra: Have you seen any more reports about that ip address exhaustion problem ?
<mdz> pitti: next?
<ogra> another thing is when and how to generate it in "not new" installs
<pitti> done last week:
<pitti>  * piled up a huge number of security updates; staged since *-security wasn't working until this morning
<pitti>  * fixed a few major bugs in dapper-updates
<pitti>  * set up automatic daily langpack updates for hoary, breezy, and dapper
<pitti>  * initial design discussion with my SoC student
<pitti> plan for remainder of this week/next week:
<pitti>  * finish my amber wrapper to generate USN templates that are actually usable, to greatly reduce the time I spend for creating them (currently in progress)
<pitti>  * release the currently pending security updates
<ogra> iwj, only one
<pitti>  * deal with the next round of security updates (firefox, tbird, mozilla, mysql, kernel), discuss solution for Mozilla&friends with upstream and other vendors
<pitti>  * find some time to think about Edgy specs until tomorrow; most likely I won't find time for 5-8, since security takes a lot of my time, and AutomatedProblemReports is a huge spec that I'd like to concentrate on
<mdz> pitti: dapper-security is working now?
<pitti> mdz: at least jackass uploads; I didn't try to release something
<pitti> mdz: packages with translation tarballs are still broken, though
<mdz> pitti: are we still getting a significant amount of ongoing new translations for hoary and breezy?
<pitti> since katie doesn't eat the raw-translations changes items
<iwj> ogra: Hmm.  I do still think there's something wrong with dhcpd there but at least it's not hugely serious.  Do let me know if it becomes more prominent on your radar.
<pitti> mdz: yes, since all dapper translations which are valid for hoary and breezy will be updated there as well
<mdz> pitti: don't many/most packages have translation tarballs?
<ogra> iwj, will do 
<ogra> iwj, thanks for pointing
<pitti> mdz: acutally not, about 400 in main
<pitti> mdz: and most of the UI stuff is not particularly vulnerability-prone
<mdz> pitti: do you have a tentative date for uploading the first translation updates for dapper?
<pitti> mdz: carlos and I agreed to update translations on first Monday every month
<pitti> mdz: does that sound fine to you?
<pitti> so, July 3
<mdz> pitti: that's fine with me; jordi proposed doing the first update earlier though
<pitti> works for me
<mdz> did you discuss with him?
<Riddell> mdz: I'm awake now, sorry for being late
<pitti> the packages are generated daily, we just need to upload whenever we want
<pitti> mdz: I'll talk with jordi
<ogra> Riddell, seems to be a derivative desease, i was late as well :)
<pitti> mdz: June 14 sounds like a good date then
<mdz> pitti: did we already send something to -announce about translation updates from rosetta?
<pitti> mdz: I will do the announcement once I can do a thorough test of the hoary and breezy updates and have the dates settled
<mdz> pitti: ok
<mdz> silbs: might we want to do a press release about the fact that we will now be doing periodic translation updates for Ubuntu from Rosetta?
<mdz> pitti: we need to keep you busy somehow in Paris; do you need help getting specs registered?
<pitti> mdz: oh, I'll have plenty to do :) I plan to discuss several ffox/oo.o/langpack related things with Carlos, talk with Till Kampetter about printing stuff, and grab some people for AutomatedProblemReports
<mdz> pitti: it's a good idea to register your planned meetings as specs, that way they go on the agenda
<pitti> mdz: but I'll find some time today to review the specs and at least be drafter for some of them
<mdz> pitti: (and you will have time to document the outcome)
<pitti> right
<pitti> mdz: are you fine with me inviting Till Kampetter for a day? he lives in Paris
<pitti> mdz: he's the Mandriva print guru, and he wanted to exchange some ideas with me
<mdz> pitti: I think it's too late to get accomodation, but of course he is welcome to come by for the session itself
<pitti> he doesn't need accomodation
<pitti> he'll just be there for a few hours, I guess
<mdz> that's fine, it's open to the public.  he should register on /Attendees though
<pitti> since our print infrastructure could need a huge hunk of love, I think it's a good idea
<pitti> alright
<mdz> thanks pitti
<mdz> Riddell: next?
<Riddell> done:
<Riddell> - e-mail catchup
<Riddell> - spec writing
<Riddell> - edgy package update preparation http://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuEdgyPackageUpdates
<Riddell> - making sure all SoC students are alive and with specs
<ogra> pitti, i'd like to have kdeedu langpacks (in case we cant drop it from edubuntu) to reduce the cd size, can we discuss that in paris ?
<Riddell> - Discussing Rosetta with KDE translators
<Riddell> - dapper-updates
<Riddell> next week:
<Riddell> - finish off pre-summit specs
<Riddell> - KDE 3.5.3 edgy packaging
<pitti> ogra: sure, should become a small spec
<Riddell> - meeting with KDE reps to discuss summit plans
<mdz> Riddell: you have a bunch of specs registered; do you expect to divide that work between yourself and some KDE folks?
<Riddell> mdz: me, KDE folk and the other kubuntu people who are coming
<mdz> Riddell: I commented on the status whiteboard of one of your proposed specs and asked for it to be reorganized a bit; hopefully launchpad emailed you?
<ogra> pitti, it will be included in the "edubuntu CD diet" spec (which has some other topics as well)
<Riddell> mdz: yes got that, will change that spec around today
<mdz> Riddell: how many SoC projects are you mentoring?
<Riddell> mdz: three
<ogra> phew
<mdz> Riddell: seems like a lot, make sure you budget time to help them
<mdz> in terms of your personal spec workload
<Riddell> sure
<mdz> Riddell: what do you plan for dapper-updates?
<Riddell> mdz: just the ones that have been uploaded, plus the openoffice amd64 stuff with doko 
<mdz> Riddell: ok, I approved qt-x11-free earlier today
<mdz> Riddell: when is the meeting with KDE?
<Riddell> monday (european) evening
<Riddell> I need to warn them about the 9 o'clock starts
* doko remembers that we'll need an ia32-libs-gtk update to include libgail* ...
<mdz> ok, please ping me when it's starting so I can at least listen in
<Riddell> mdz: sure
<mdz> Riddell: thanks
<mdz> sfllaw: next?
<sfllaw> Done: Bug triage, release party, SoC mentoring, setup ability to work in the Montreal office.
<sfllaw> Todo: Bug triage, training people for ubuntu-qa, spec writing, SoC mentoring.
<sfllaw> .
<sfllaw> STATISTICS
<sfllaw> ==========
<sfllaw> Since Dapper's release...
<sfllaw> Unconfirmed and unassigned bugs of severity >= normal: 1581 -> 2086
<sfllaw> Needs Info bugs: 1450 -> 1651
<sfllaw> Dapper bugs: 64 -> 76
<sfllaw> Bugs without packages: 1079 -> 1303
<sfllaw> Bugs closed: 6696 (This number seems wrong, considering what https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs said yesterday, which was about 5000 less.)
<mdz> sfllaw: does that represent a large spike in bug activity, or normal firehose action?
<sfllaw> What do you mean by "that"?
<sfllaw> The numbers overall?
<mdz> sfllaw: the deltas
<Kamion> sfllaw: bugs closed> does that take dups into account?
<sfllaw> Kamion: I'm unsure.  bradb would be the best person to answer that.
<sfllaw> mdz: We have a huge spike in bug activity, caused by Dapper's release.
<mdz> sfllaw: the inconsistency might have something to do with that malone bugfix which went in recently, correcting the numbers vs. query results
<sfllaw> mdz: Fair enough.  Sane numbers should reappear next week, then.
<mdz> bug 33882
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 33882 in malone "Critical bugs are listed as 8 in the side bar, but there actually aren't any" [Medium,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/33882
<sfllaw> In any event, the bug flow seems to have doubled after you made that release announcement.
<mdz> sfllaw: from what you've seen, are there many valid/confirmable bug reports or mostly dupes/noise?
<sfllaw> A lot of both.
<dholbach> from what I've seen, I'd say 60% dupes/noise and 40% valid bugs (desktop-bugs)
<doko> sfllaw: more statistics: ubuntu > 4500 hits on distrowatch, kubuntu and xubuntu on rang 4 and 5 (7 day statistics), edubuntu on rang 23 (ogra, go ;-)
<ogra> YAY !
<sfllaw> dholbach: That sounds about right.
<mdz> doko: indeed, distrowatch is very sensitive to new releases and other big news ;-)
<sfllaw> Lots of people hit bugs in ubiquity, that I've been hesitant to collapse into dupes.
<mdz> qualitative feedback about dapper so far seems to be very positive, though
<sfllaw> I agree.
<mdz> congratulations to all of you on that success
<ogra> mdz, dont take our illusions !
<ogra> (about distrowatch)
<sfllaw> Lots of people have weird configurations which didn't show up in Release Candidate stages.
<mdz> we're getting great press and user feedback
<Kamion> sfllaw: I'm happy to (and indeed prefer) to do most of that, but see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingUbiquity for the easy cases that can be done by others
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<mdz> sfllaw: we need to figure out how to get those folks testing pre-release
<Kamion> sfllaw: ubiquity is about 80% dupes or weird-shit. :-(
<sfllaw> It's psychological, I think.
<sfllaw> Kamion: We need their logs before we can sort into dupes.
<Kamion> sfllaw: right, I have cut-and-paste text for that ...
<sfllaw> Yeah, so do I.  :(
<mdz> anyone heard from BenC?
<mdz> out of time
<mdz> thanks all, and good time-of-day
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<fabbione> mdz: thanks, good night
<sfllaw> Zzz.
<dholbach> thanks - sleep tight
<heno> sfllaw: I think people are more likely to test Live CDs pre-release, so better ways of getting debugging info from those would help
<ogra> heno, but that wont show you the upgrade probs with weird configs ...
<heno> ogra: true
<Kamion> heno: we only really started to get decent ubiquity crash reporting going around beta 2, unfortunately
<Kamion> I regret not doing that earlier
<ogra> i had a guy who obviously had poked around in his /etc/login.defs and couldnt log without getting a ton of errors for example ...
<pitti> bye everyone
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu
<gnomefreak> jenda: ping
<jenda> gnomefreak: pong
<gnomefreak> are we only ones here?
* gnomefreak never did hear back from mez
<ogra> gnomefreak, there is no meeting scheduled atm
<jenda> ogra: wrong... in one hour, there is one.
<gnomefreak> ogra: we tried to for nun to see if we can get it back up
<highvoltage> jenda: there's a difference between 'atm' and 'one hour' ;)
<ogra> not according to the official schedule, please mail the fridge next time to get it on there
<jenda> Is there? hmm... true
<ogra> and what highvoltage says :)
<jenda> ogra: it's there http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event
<ogra> @schedule CET
<Ubugtu> Schedule for CET: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<ogra> Ubugtu disagrees, hmm
<ogra> Seveas, ??
<Seveas> @schedule Amsterdam
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<Seveas> @topic
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Jun 17:00 UTC: New User Network | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<Seveas> probably places on the fridge less than an hour ago
<ogra> ah, ok
<ogra> thanks :)
<Seveas> ubugtu refreshes its webcal feed every hour
<Seveas> "@topic" forces him to do that
<ogra> oki, willl check first next time :)
<Seveas> to see next meeting, use @now <timezone>
<Seveas> @now Amsterdam
<Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Amsterdam: June 08 2006, 18:03:55 - Next meeting: New User Network  in 56 minutes
<ogra> ah, cool
<jenda> Seveas, ogra, must disagree - was there since yesterday.
<Seveas> hmm
<ogra> well, my evo calendar just got it ...
<ogra> so it might be a glitch on the fridge
<Seveas> jenda, maybe not yet in the webcal feed
<ogra> it was surely not in the webcal feed (in my evolution) when we started talking
<jenda> Seveas: no idea what you're talking abotu there.. :)
<gnomefreak> me neither
<Seveas> jenda, you poked me earlier just before I left work
<Seveas> what was that about?
* jenda waves at hybrid
<hybrid> me waves back
<hybrid> heh
<hybrid> brb im gonna get some breakfast before the meeting
<jenda> sure ;)
* hybrid whistles
* jenda slaps hybrid. 9 more minutes.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: New User Network | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<lastnode> jenda, DRP == Dapper Release Party
<jenda> Ah ;)
<lastnode> jenda, http://flickr.com/photos/mahangu/sets/72157594154931177/
<gnomefreak> is there a logger or do i need to take notes?
<jenda> I log
<gnomefreak> ok you log ;)
<jenda> and this channel has it's own logbot, I think... Ubugtu?
<lastnode> yeah Ubugtu logs
<jenda> OK
<jenda> so... what's the agneda?
<gnomefreak> lol
<jenda> a-jenda
<jenda> And where the hell is nalioth and robotgeek...
<gnomefreak> we need ideas to bring back nun and what we can do to imporove it
<gnomefreak> nalmight be sleeping/working
<lastnode> yeah i agree
<lastnode> so are we <meetup> ?
<kingspawn> Is it supposed to be done in the nun-channel? Like, advicing people that want mentoring to go in there?
<gnomefreak> lastnode: yep lets do this
<kingspawn> Or in the regular #ubuntu-channel?
<lastnode> kingspawn, in #ubuntu really
<lastnode> #ubuntu-nun is for us to coordinate
<kingspawn> Hm, okay.
<pppoe_dude> MAke an attreactive website
<lastnode> pppoe_dude, we already have a website/wiki
<jenda> why an attractive website?
<gnomefreak> kingspawn: i talked to naloith about that and he brings them into an offtoic channel either ubuntu or kubuntu but i would like a place (maybe #ubuntu-nun) due to less people
<jenda> What we need first is a mission statement.
<pppoe_dude> coz then more people will think it's user friendly, etc.
<kingspawn> gnomefreak: Yeah, me too. #ubuntu is too crowded for indepth mentoring
<kingspawn> gnomefreak: Nowadays it is more suited for oneline-answers
<kingspawn> (imho)
<gnomefreak> same with offtopic channels for me atleast
<jenda> Is the mission the creation of #ubuntu-sidechannels for more personal handling of newbies?
<jenda> and only that?
<pppoe_dude> maybe put all the standard stuff like a few forums and an irc channel
<lastnode> jenda, that's part of it, i guess
<lastnode> i dont do forums, so it'll be just irc for me
<kingspawn> I think that is a good idea, really.
<kingspawn> Conversation-style help in #ubuntu is impossible
<hybrid> lastnode: +1
<lastnode> hybrid, never been anything but a waste of time
<lastnode> at least on irc, you can kickban the flamers
<jenda> indeed, it's mostly the UBunu IRC team anyway... )
<hybrid> lastnode: i have a bad history with ubuntuforums and some of the leaders
<gnomefreak> jenda: im more of an irc users than forums. forums have a way of going wayyy too off-subject/help
<lastnode> Ubuntu-NUN should be a group of users willing to answer the same questions over, and over, and over agian
<jenda> hybrid: please. not now.
<lastnode> preferebly without too many links
<lastnode> and RTFMS
<jenda> gnomefreak: we are all.
<lastnode> as polite as we say it, sometimes we're just RTFMing
<gnomefreak> lastnode: thats what it was at one point
<lastnode> without saying the word
<hybrid> jenda: i was just stating my reason not trying to start a flamewar
<lastnode> it's like
* jenda would cut teh forums away from the subject now.
<kermitX_> website/wiki/whatever needs a good intro/primer into IRC for these new users.
<lastnode> you have to have the patience to answer "Guys, what's a linix?"
<kingspawn> Well, sometimes a little reading will make it clearer for the questioneer, imho. 
<gnomefreak> im making note to take to mez to see if we cant do something either re do the team (if people are not intersted) take them off?
<lastnode> kingspawn, yeah, there's a fine line there, that we have to be able to draw
<kingspawn> lastnode: Sure, sure, I'm all for helping. I'm actually quite helpful at times :)
<jenda> sending them off to read is usually hard for them.
<kermitX_> ;)
<lastnode> in some cases it IS useful though
<jenda> but that's not the point of the meeting, eh?
<gnomefreak> has anyone looked ar the restricted wiki lately? tell me a new users can understand that now
<lastnode> we dont want to encourage dumb users
<jenda> So, we need side-channels.
<lastnode> we want to help them grow
<jenda> What's next?
<lastnode> but at their one speed
<lastnode> jenda, we _have_ side channels
<lastnode> that was already decided
<lastnode> we didnt need a meeting for that :)
<gnomefreak> lastnode: we dont yet
<lastnode> yeah, what's next
<jenda> we do? For this specific reason?
<kingspawn> What's next is actually an efficient way of tunneling the ones that need to go there there
<kingspawn> (there there...)
<jenda> We don't - but we should.
<lastnode> jenda, i dont think we need for this specific reason
<jenda> lastnode: I'm afraid we do -that's the whole point.
<lastnode> wait, i mean #ubuntu-nun is eniugh, i reckon
<lastnode> *enough
<lastnode> there is a flipside though
<jenda> It is for coordination, not for tutoring.
<lastnode> inviting a user in to #ubuntu-whatever is good
<lastnode> as long as you can finish what you started
<lastnode> if you have to afk
<kingspawn> Can't we have something like #ubuntu-nun-coord for the coordination?
<lastnode> and no one else is around
<jenda> hmm
<kingspawn> I can't, for the sake of my sanity, do things like this in #ubuntu
<lastnode> then he/she is in the lurch
<jenda> no, we need #ubuntu-coupe
<lastnode> at least with #ubuntu, there's always someone else there
<gnomefreak> kingspawn: that will get messy for the nun memebers that dont know
<lastnode> i dont think we need a special channel to coord
<lastnode> all of us are in -offtopic
<jenda> and once that is overcrowded #ubuntu-saloon
<jenda> etc ;)
<kingspawn> gnomefreak: Well, the wiki needs to reflect the changes, I would guess
<pppoe_dude> lol
<gnomefreak> kingspawn: it will
<kingspawn> gnomefreak: If they are active, they will find out
<pppoe_dude> how about #ubuntu-beginners (for the main channel - to keep it simple)
<gnomefreak> i would like to find out who is and who is not active ont he member list
<lastnode> btw, is the IRCteam ok with this?
<jenda> pppoe_dude: +1
<gnomefreak> +1
<pppoe_dude> and #ubuntu-nun for discussions
<jenda> gnomefreak is the IRC team here.
<lastnode> in the end, keeping the peace is going to be their job
<jenda> :)
<lastnode> oh ok :)
<gnomefreak> jenda: what irc team? the ops?
<lastnode> gnomefreak, we will have teh opxors in there?
<jenda> Seveas mainly.
<lastnode> cool
<gnomefreak> lastnode: yes we will
<jenda> of course.
<lastnode> im just saying, do we need another channel to coord
<jenda> lastnode: if we don't we can abandon it later.
<lastnode> ive seen a maximum of 5 people in #ubuntu-nun anyway
<gnomefreak> jenda: ping him hes prolly working on something
<lastnode> (except now ;-))
<jenda> I just did, gnomefreak
<pppoe_dude> then setup a team to cover the channels 24/7
<jenda> :)
<kingspawn> lastnode: Heh, the idea is to increase the pressure, innit?
<lastnode> how about we do this? we _start_ inviting people in to -nun
<lastnode> i mean users
<Seveas> dragging people away from #ubuntu is not-done
<lastnode> and if we get crowded
<jenda> pppoe_dude: that should be the people who help in #ubuntu the most.
<Seveas> sending invites definitely not
<jenda> Seveas: it's not?
<Seveas> no
* jenda stops in his tracks...
<kermitX_> specifically invite beginners to #ubuntu-beginners or whatever in the docs, user guide, wiki, etc.
<kingspawn> So all help should be given in #ubuntu?
<gnomefreak> Seveas: we are not dragging it was meant for like when me or naloith or whoever walk users through compiling
* lastnode _did_ ask what the irc team thinks of it
* pppoe_dude will be back in 2 minutes
<Seveas> gnomefreak, private messages are ok for that too but I see your point
<kermitX_> #ubuntu is too cluttered to have more than a 2 line conversation with someone.
<kingspawn> Yeah. I'm all up for joining a team to help out more people
<kermitX_> beginners will get frustrated with all the irrelevent chatter.
<kingspawn> But not in #ubuntu.
<kingspawn> (If text is more than one line, that is)
<gnomefreak> kermitX_: thats why most of us invite users to an -offtopic channel to walk them through
<Spec> How do you redirect beginners to #ubuntu-beginners?
<gnomefreak> Spec: you cant
<Spec> social engineering?
<dsas> gnomefreak: RestrictedFormats will be reworked a little soon (shockwave and java are planned to be put in their own wiki pages iirc)
<kingspawn> Yeah.
<gnomefreak> it would be more like <user> join me in #blah blah-blah if you want help with this more in depth
<Spec> I think people who IRC from the livecd/install should be redirected to #ubuntu-install
<pppoe_dude> Spec, in the topic
<gnomefreak> dsas: ty
<Spec> who reads the topic?
* gnomefreak read topics
<kingspawn> Not the beginners.
<kingspawn> Heh.
* highvoltage too
<Spec> i mean, yeah, we do
<Seveas> putting things in topic == dragging away
<Spec> but not beginners
* hybrid reads it
<jenda> Spec: I disagree. LiveCD is too general.
<Seveas> I don't think there's a need for a separate fixed channel
<jenda> Anyway - it has always been done. Whenever you need to guide someone through, you need another channel.
<lastnode> Spec, splitting up channels means you hae to find people who are willing to spawn themselves across all of them
<Seveas> I suggest: "Join #yournickname to get in-depth help"
<Seveas> just temporary join quiet channels
<gnomefreak> i can go with that
<kermitX_> preconfigure some of the #ubuntu-xxxx channels in the irc clients in the repos?
<jenda> Seveas: that does make some sense.
<lastnode> yeah that sounds alright
<Seveas> it even makes people feel special
<lastnode> :)
<gnomefreak> ;)
<Seveas> "Hi lastnode come to #lastnode and I'll help" 
<Seveas> but don't do that for all questions
<kingspawn> I've got three real life friends that use ubuntu, and they all detest #ubuntu, haha.
<lastnode> Seveas, you liar! #lastnode is teh empty!
<gnomefreak> lmao
<Seveas> lastnode, :
<Seveas> kingspawn, heh #ubuntu is quite messy at times
<lastnode> kingspawn, it's not perfect at times, but certainly one of the best channels ive seen
<Seveas> I wish I had some more time for it
<Spec> and very fast paced
<lastnode> in terms of promptness
<gnomefreak> the one thing that worried me was #ubuntu is getting very big
<Spec> only because dapper was released
<gnomefreak> new users couldnt keep up with 500 people now theres 900+ at all tiomes
<lastnode> bigger than #gentoo?
<lastnode> nope
<lastnode> then again, vastly diff audiences
<Seveas> lastnode, we're pretty close to #gentoo now
<Seveas> during release we were bigger
<lastnode> Seveas, yeah, i noticed :)
<lastnode> oh right, didnt notice that
<lastnode> :)
<Spec> One thing I'd like to bring up would be standardization on us people getting information from them, there has to be a better way than pastebin/flood....
<hybrid> #gentoo is also older
<ompaul> Spec, #flood is useless
<kingspawn> Hm, so this nun-thing is going to require joining a different channel each time I help someone out?
<kingspawn> That is kind of set in stone now?
<Seveas> kingspawn, no it won't
<Spec> ompaul: #ubuntu-flood
<Spec> but still, the concept of a flood channel is silly
<kermitX_> Spec, topic="troll magnet"
<Seveas> Spec, yeah, pastebin is much better 
<ompaul> Spec, flooding channels are useless, they scoll by too fast
<kingspawn> Seveas: Oh? I misunderstand, then. Heh. I thought it was /j #nameofusertohelp, and then go at it.
<lastnode> guys, i think what Seveas is tring to beat here is recursion. for example, what happens when #ubuntu-nun gets too crowded? do we spawn #ubuntu-nun-nun
<lastnode> i do see his point
<Spec> patebin is better, but it takes 10-15 minutes sometimes for a newbie to patebin
<kingspawn> patbin, hahah.
<Seveas> lastnode, indeed
<kingspawn> French pastebin
<Seveas> Spec, let them use webboard 
<lastnode> hi user, please /j #ubuntu-nun-nun-nun-nn
<kermitX_> need 1.2.3. step by step instructions on pastebin.
<Spec> webboard?
* pppoe_dude back
<Seveas> Spec, apt-get install webboard
<lastnode> SUDO
<billybennett> whats wrong with a new dialog window?
<lastnode> you missed the sudo
* lastnode shoots Seveas 
<lastnode> zomg blasphemy!
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b %*!*@unaffiliated/mahangu]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<Seveas> HAH!
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+o Seveas]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-b %*!*@unaffiliated/mahangu]  by Seveas
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-o Seveas]  by ChanServ
<Spec> hehe
<lastnode> :(
<pppoe_dude> i think that the channel crowdedness issue is no problem
<lastnode> sudo!
<hybrid> lol
* lastnode runs and hides
<pppoe_dude> because their nicknames would be highlighted
<lastnode> pppoe_dude, you havent spent much time in #ubuntu, have you?
<Spec> it scrolls real fast
<lastnode> walk away for some caffeiene
<lastnode> and voila
<pppoe_dude> lastnode, i have
<gnomefreak> pppoe_dude: it can be when trying to walk someone through something (most of us can do it but the new users eh)
<lastnode> you miss it
<kermitX_> how long does it take an irc newbie to include a nick in their messages?
<gnomefreak> ok lets start with wiki re0working everyone up with that?
<lastnode> kermitX_, esp one who doesnt know about tab completition
<pppoe_dude> kermitX_, they dont have to, but we do
<Seveas> kermitX_, weeks 
<kermitX_> lastnode, took me *forever* to figure that out! ;)
<lastnode> so, are we clear then? we just spwn #Seveas and take all our users there? :)
<kingspawn> gnomefreak: I'd like to know how this is going to work first, heh.
<jenda> Well, Seveas, perhaps adding the #username policy to IRC rules?
<Spec> lastnode: it seems so
<Seveas> lastnode, eep :/
<gnomefreak> kingspawn: as in?
<lastnode> is that really policy?
<Spec> users might join #theirownnick and just wait for help though ... :-/
<Seveas> jenda, no it's not policy
<lastnode> i mean if people wanted to /j #zomgitflies, whatever
<lastnode> ?
<Seveas> jenda, it's NuN advise for NuN helpers, not IRC policy
<jenda> OK
* jenda wants to be a nun
<pppoe_dude> how about like 3 channels to spread traffic, #ubuntu-beginner-install #ubuntu-beginner-setup and #ubuntu-beginner-general
<kingspawn> gnomefreak: Well, like if it is going to take me joining new channels every five minutes, etc.
<lastnode> jenda, we should put this on the Nun wiki page i guess
<Spec> Why not just take it to PMs though?
<jenda> lastnode: check.
<pppoe_dude> and we'd direct them from a main channel
<lastnode> pppoe_dude, scroll up, we've been through this
<gnomefreak> lastnode: if i am going to help you i would make channel #lastnode and than as you to join it for help
<jenda> Spec: so that more people can help
<lastnode> pppoe_dude, we're _not_ doing that
<pppoe_dude> lastnode, ok
<lastnode> gnomefreak, yeah cool
<Spec> jenda: join me in #jenda to continue our discussion
<Seveas> pppoe_dude, splitting off many channels is a bad idea
<Spec> jenda: no one else except you and me will be there :p
<Seveas> even #ubuntu+1 took a while to grow
<jenda> * #jenda :You can't join that many channels :(
<Seveas> jenda, haha 
<lastnode> that becomes a problem if a user with nick 'yourmom' joins
<lastnode> 0.o
<gnomefreak> if it comes down to it we will use nun
<hybrid> #ubuntu+1 <3
<ompaul> forget about the spread, lets think about some of our issues, some of this comes from our inability to articulate a set of questions that define users problems, and with some users while being willing to ask for help they ask in a way that is not condusive to getting a resolution
<jenda> Seveas: you're evil. I do'nt have +u because Ubuntu crashes too often :(
<lastnode> ompaul, i think we should invade iraq too!
<lastnode> :)
<jenda> ompaul: true. I blame that on nalioth not being here.
<Spec> I think if we join a #nick it'll be limiting the amount of help that new user could recieve
<jenda> :)
<Seveas> I'm on 27 channels on freenode now 
<highvoltage> geepers
<ompaul> Seveas, you needed to say that on 6.6.6.6.6.6
<lastnode> Spec, this is purely for users who you _know_ you can help
<Seveas> lastnode, indeed
* gnomefreak has seen 1 member of nun say he doesnt walk people through thier issues    that pissed me off bad but im not stating anyones name on this so dont ask
<jenda> Seveas: I was on 29 before it crashed :( </OT>
<pppoe_dude> oh so the idea is to have like "teacher channels" where each helper will have his own channel?
<kingspawn> What I don't like about /j #nick is mainly two things: We must issue the same help even more often than with a sort of beginner-channel, 2) it will have me join new channels all the time, which doesn't float my boat 
<kermitX_> we don't all need to open new channels to help a beginner out one-on-one. a single #ubuntu-beginners should be more than adequate..
<gnomefreak> we cant have that if your name is on mentors list or member list of nun
<lastnode> gnomefreak, if you're not stating names, why did you bring it up? it serves no purpose, and just arouses unnecessary curiosity.
<gnomefreak> lastnode: keep reading
<Seveas> kermitX_, the problem with #ubuntu-beginners is that lots of people will join it
<Seveas> nullifying the solution it gives
<lastnode> gnomefreak, still, it's better to be open about it. but i do get your point
<jenda> pppoe_dude: no... more like each student having a channel with several teachers...
<kermitX_> Seveas, then we just find a little more obsecure name for it.. #ubuntu-nun-help
<ompaul> no 
<ompaul> too long
<Seveas> kermitX_, name is irrelevant
<pppoe_dude> oh ic. i think its at least better the other way around
<ompaul> and trying to get someone to click on a channel name is hard word
<ompaul> s/word/work
<pppoe_dude> although it would be limiting help
<jenda> Nah - I think the channel problem is solved.
<gnomefreak> agreed
<lastnode> kermitX_, <lastnode> guys, i think what Seveas is tring to beat here is recursion. for example, what happens when #ubuntu-nun gets too crowded? do we spawn #ubuntu-nun-nun
<kermitX_> lastnode, number them instead of nun-nun-nun-nun
<lastnode> yeah, we're through with the channel discussion? will someone update teh wiki?
<kingspawn> What became the conclusion?
<gnomefreak> thats why you make temp rooms like #lastnode
<lastnode> gnomefreak, yeah i know, i was trying to explain the reason for our decision to kermitX_ 
<gnomefreak> i say either make a temp channel or use an offtopic channel
<lastnode> conclusion : we create #username channels when necessary
<ompaul> lets examine a case
<lastnode> and rooms?
<lastnode> channels!
<jenda> lastnode: I'll update the wiki.
<lastnode> jenda, cool
<kermitX_> so everybody ends up with their own personal help channel. people would be able to find you again for follow up. i suppose that'll work.
<ompaul> #nun-ompaul
<gnomefreak> hmmmmmm
<ompaul> don't even go there for joking but 
<gnomefreak> lol
<jenda> Wait - the channels are named after the n00b, not the mentor, nein?
<ompaul> so the problem here is that I create that, if I ask a user to go there
<gnomefreak> 30 other follow thinking they are gonna get help
<jenda> gnomefreak: I doubt it.
<kermitX_> jenda, isn't rule #1 don't call the beginners 'n00b' ? ;)
<ompaul> and you end up in a row with them over the help they are giving 
<gnomefreak> jenda: i would go with mentor on that that way it stays open
<jenda> Besides, the channel will have the persons nam...
<jenda> OK
<gnomefreak> kermitX_: yes ;)
<jenda> kermitX_: not in here ;) But sure.
<lastnode> kermitX_, dont call them n00b to their faces! :p
<gnomefreak> never
<jenda> never
* jenda whistles innocently
* lastnode gets ready for an attack
<Spec> #nun-<helper> sounds better
<kermitX_> if a room is created using the ahem, n00b's name, they may expect to find future help there...
<ompaul> there is a problem there, if we have 20 mentors and all the mentors there and they all join each others channels to help/learn then there is a failure
<ompaul> we run out of channels we can be useful in
<ompaul> I have an idea, its short and simple
<Spec> Maybe we should specialize
<ompaul> no 
* gnomefreak trying to cut down on some channels im in lol
<lastnode> Spec, that aint ever gonna work. im a jack of all trades, specialist in none
<jenda> gnomefreak: you'll just add one ;)
<kingspawn> For each user.
<gnomefreak> jenda: yep :) but i can handle it
<lastnode> ompaul, idea?
<jenda> I could, if gdm stopped crashing... but no solutions as yet.
<ompaul> thank you
<kingspawn> Let
<kingspawn> Eh.
<gnomefreak> jenda: we need to get up wityh naloith i think see if we cant weed out some of the un-active members
<kingspawn> Let's hear it, ompaul
<ompaul> the idea is to have channels off #ubuntu-nun #ubuntu-nun-1   2 and 3
<ompaul> we need to own them
<gnomefreak> than we can set "channels/rules for channels" stuff like that
<ompaul> yes
<ompaul> they are like surgeries
<Spec> painful and take a long time to recover from?
<ompaul> you can go into any of them once you are directed there
<ompaul> Spec, please
* gnomefreak already tried emailing mez that failed (hes a dev iirc so i see why)
<jenda> what about #ubuntu-nun-<mentor>?
<kingspawn> ompaul: I agree one hundred percent.
<lastnode> guys, shall we let the man speak?
<gnomefreak> too long
<ompaul> jenda, no 
<jenda> ok
<hybrid> jenda: i like #nun-<mentor>
<jenda> but we don't own #nun-*
<ompaul> hang on a second
<lastnode> urgh
<gnomefreak> jenda: #unu-jenda
<gnomefreak> s/unu/nun
<dsas> Mez is practically impossible to to contact in my experience. I think I read on his blog he's 1000s of emails behind.
<hybrid> jenda: we will only need to own #nun and #nun-* comes with it
<kingspawn> Anyone considered the fact that if we have channels that hold more than one mentor, it doesnt hit the user so hard if you are suddenly called away from the keyboard?
<jenda> hybrid: sure. In that case, shall we let Seveas register #nun?
<jenda> or not?
<gnomefreak> dsas: any other way you know to contact him? or should we talk to naloith on this?
<Seveas> jenda, ubuntu channels should start with #ubuntu-
<pppoe_dude> #ubuntu-beginners
<pppoe_dude> imo
* kermitX_ thinks a couple extra #ubuntu- channels would help a bit with the volume in #ubuntu
<jenda> Seveas: taht's what I suggested...
<dsas> gnomefreak: No idea, I remember trying to contact him several times via email and never getting a reply, never saw him on IRC either.
<jenda> Umm... i think we already discussed #ubuntu-beginners.
<kermitX_> jenda, that could be our 'home base' channel...
<lastnode> defragging #ubuntu is not gonna work imho
<gnomefreak> ok why not do this  use #ubuntu-nun for helping people that will take a while (always start in #ubuntuor #ubuntu+1 if you can) and we will always have info in topic for nun members
<jenda> kermitX_: that's #ubuntu-nun
<lastnode> it's gonna send bucketloads of users in to the new chans
<gnomefreak> dsas: me neither
<lastnode> with not nearly as many support guys
<dsas> I have no idea about IRC, but can you make an IRC channel randomly forward to other channels, so upon joining #ubuntu you get sent on a round robin to #ubuntu-helpX
<kermitX_> jenda, primary support channel...
<hybrid> ubuntutor
<Seveas> dsas, no
<jenda> kermitX_: that's ubuntu. We've discussed that.
<kingspawn> dsas, Can't be done.
<ompaul> folks I want to put out a full idea, so if you let me do it in one block you will see a reasonable suggestion, and then you can think ohh that is bad because or it is good because, first off I am opposed to names because it is not in the spirit of community, second off, it leads to toooooo many channels, if there was #ubuntu-nun1 #ubuntu-nun2 #ubuntu-nun3  they are in essence a temp channel - the person goes there and gets the issue resolved
<ompaul>  it is inhabitied by  several mentors, (Quality Assurance) and then the user is removed when the issue is sorted the only people left in the channel are the mentors, is that too bizarre?
<jenda> and wouldn't solve a thing.
* gnomefreak brb needed
<ompaul> btw that could be #ubuntu1 or #ubuntu2 also 
<ompaul> but they are a constant
<kingspawn> ompaul speaks with a rational voice, imho.
<kermitX_> ompaul, not to be confused with #ubuntu+1, #ubuntu+2
<kingspawn> When the help is done, they can politely be asked to go back to #ubuntu for other questions
<lastnode> kermitX_, #ubuntu+2 ?
<lastnode> :)
<kingspawn> (mind, politely)
<ompaul> kermitX_, #ubuntu-A
<ompaul> I really don't care about the name, internalise the idea
<pppoe_dude> idea is good
<dsas> will people politely go back to #ubuntu, or will they go back to where they got help last time?
<ompaul> in saying that I do care about the name up to the point where people use their own names - we need to be able to sit there
<ompaul> dsas no invite no voice
<ompaul> sorry I forgot to suggest that
<jenda> dsas: people aren't completely dumb - whereever they go they will 1) get help 2) be sent elsewhere 3) find nothing and go to #ubuntu
<lastnode> jenda, i think all of us in here know that sometimes, people _can_ be completely dumb
<ompaul> they are invite channels nun peeps are voiced are as invited users then they loose their voice so there can be "and another thing" unless it get invited a second time
<hybrid> what about if not invited they are forwarded back to #ubuntu?
<ompaul> hybrid, messy 
<kingspawn> hybrid: Difficult 
<jenda> hybrid: I like that.
<jenda> kingspawn: +if #ubuntu
<dsas> Ok, I wasn't thinking of people being dumb, just that people would want to go for the quality help in a quiet channel. If the invite rule is enforced then that's not an issue anywa.
<kingspawn> jenda: Oh, haha, didn't know you could do that. Times they are a'changing
<jenda> nalioth: talking about sidechannels
<ompaul> anyway that is my idea, suggestion whatever
<nalioth> i do not want to fragment off #ubuntu.  I think that if you invite a new user to #ubuntu-offtopic or #kubuntu-offtopic, a) you 'own' the problem until you've solved it and b) there are others in those channels who may be able to contribute
<kingspawn> nalioth: Did you read ompauls idea?
<jenda> nalioth: partly agreed, but it kills those channels.
<ompaul> what I had suggested wa this
<ompaul> ompaul> folks I want to put out a full idea, so if you let me do it in one block you will see a reasonable suggestion, and then you can think ohh that is bad because or it is good because, first off I am opposed to names because it is not in the spirit of community, second off, it leads to toooooo many channels, if there was #ubuntu-nun1 #ubuntu-nun2 #ubuntu-nun3  they are in essence a temp channel - the person goes there and gets the issue 
<ompaul> resolved
<ompaul> <ompaul>  it is inhabitied by  several mentors, (Quality Assurance) and then the user is removed when the issue is sorted the only people left in the channel are the mentors, is that too bizarre?
<nalioth> still reading the backlog
<pppoe_dude> sorry guys but i have to leave... where can i join the mailing list?
<jenda> nalioth: we were thinking of creating special #ubuntu-nun-mentoring channels (no matter the name)
<robotgeek> is the issue with #ubuntu that too many people there?
<jenda> pppoe_dude: I'll ping you once there is one.
<nalioth> pppoe_dude: i'll get the mailing list figured out
<gnomefreak> scrolling
<pppoe_dude> jenda, ok thanks
<ompaul> robotgeek, no it is more that a new user can't cope with the amount of text
<kingspawn> robotgeek: Not exactly. The issue is that helping people with more detail than "DO THIS!" is impossible there
<pppoe_dude> bye :)
<jenda> bye
<ompaul> robotgeek, you can't carry out a conversation with them 
<nalioth> robotgeek: since dapper released, at times #ubuntu is incomprehensible for new users, i'd suspect
<jenda> agreed.
<robotgeek> i am mostly not in there, i only support #kubuntu now. good to know
<nalioth> i don't necessarily agree with having -nun1 -nun2 and having our folks in the channel, since there are folks who are not nun members willing to help also
<G0SUB> nalioth: +1
<jenda> agreed
<gnomefreak> the issue if you start pulling people from #ubuntu is they will not know where to get help after a few times
<kingspawn> gnomefreak: This needs to be explained
<lastnode> defragging the main channel may lead to other problems
<lastnode> that's my main concern
<jenda> gnomefreak: i don't think so. They'll be side channels for single use (+if, IMO)
<lastnode> anyway, i have school tomo
<lastnode> going to bed
<gnomefreak> night lastnode 
<lastnode> 23:30 over here
<lastnode> night guys
<lastnode> let me know what goes down :p
* lastnode stuffs a ballot a box for good measure
<jenda> night
<gnomefreak> nalioth: i would like if we can get up with the members and see who is active and who isnt (this might give us a better idea on how to pull nun back up)
<ompaul> well it was only to assist where a user is in a channel where the questions are as bewildering as they are plentiful
<jenda> Hmm... the problem is overcrowding in #ubuntu. #nick channels seem a viable solution, except they are temporary. #-nun-X channels seem a little messy (perhaps fixable with +if ubuntu)...
<nalioth> gnomefreak: this is another reason for getting the mailing list up
<jenda> #ubuntu-beginners is no solution.
<jenda> Did I sum that up right?
<hybrid> im going to make an account just for mailing list
* ompaul thinks the conversation has just gone full circle and the wagons are now closed
<kingspawn> Heh.
<gnomefreak> ok cool i was looking for it yesterday but couldnt find it if you need help getting it up let me know
<kingspawn> I guess I've stated my take on it enough.
<jenda> thats why I tried to sum it up...
<gnomefreak> answer on that was?
<ompaul> there is none
<gnomefreak> ok
<kingspawn> How about doing a pilot project with ompauls idea?
<kingspawn> If it doesn't work out, back to the drawing boards
* gnomefreak missed that
<ompaul> minute 45
<kermitX_> are we limiting the solution to this part strictly to IRC? or would some sort of web application that spawns one-on-one webchat sessions a viable alternative?
<Seveas> kermitX_, mugshot!
<kingspawn> kermitX_: What the...
<kingspawn> kermitX_: Have you gone raving mad? ;)
<jenda> hmm
<jenda> I think IRC is ideal for this...
<kingspawn> kermitX_: That's my way of saying "Doesn't sound good"
<Seveas> kingspawn, red hat is working on it already ;)
<gnomefreak> ok so make one channel voice all members and voice users that were invited there for help i see one issue with that
<kingspawn> Seveas: Well, we know that _they_ have gone mad haha
<Seveas> hehe
<gnomefreak> only ops can give or take voice are we gonna have 15 ops?
<Seveas> why mess with voice/ops?
<Seveas> that's just terrible
<nalioth> Seveas: +q
<nalioth> oope
<kingspawn> Seveas: To be able to get rid of them again, heh.
<gnomefreak> thats how i read ompaul idea on that
<nalioth> =1
<kingspawn> To perpetuate the idea that they shouldnt outstay their mentoring-welcome
<nalioth> ah, i need to go back to bed
<ompaul> forget the voice idea, but how do you do the you only got one ticket for help
<nalioth> you gently guide them back to #ubuntu 
<kingspawn> Yeah.
<ompaul> Phone Call ! - 
<kermitX_> kingspawn, Seveas: i was thinking something like a pastebin on oneside and a chat window on the other.
<kingspawn> Politely stating that this ends the session, and that #ubuntu is the place for further inquiry shouldn't be impossible
<jenda> gnomefreak: nope... I don't think so...
<kingspawn> Most people would take that alright, I think
<jenda> ompaul, in your proposition, could the channels be +if #ubuntu ?
<jenda> all we need then is the invite command at level 1 and all mentors at that level in the channels.
<kingspawn> jenda: In ircspeak, that is "you get routed to #ubuntu unless you were explicitly invited"?
<jenda> kingspawn: check
<nalioth> kingspawn: that is the point
<kingspawn> That is a nice idea.
<jenda> I think that would work perfectly
<jenda> And we could stick with one such channel and gradually expand if needed.
<kingspawn> Yes.
<sladen> I feel guility everytime I leave #ubuntu, since I frequently find there aren't many other people around and that leaving generally means dumping X number of new users into the pit again to fend for themselves
<kingspawn> I think that would be a good approach.
<gnomefreak> is that possible kingspawn ?
<nalioth> sladen: you don't stay in multiple channels?
<nalioth> how about #ubuntu-classroom   ?
<gnomefreak> to only allow invites?
<gnomefreak> nalioth: +1
<kermitX_> nalioth, works for me.
<kingspawn> gnomefreak: Yeah
<nalioth> gnomefreak: that would keep folks from lurking (which may or may not be a good thing . . . )
<Spec> How does one become a NuN?
<sladen> nalioth: I generally can only cope with an hour or so at a time;  and often within that I'll have several users I've /query'ed and am following up in detail with
<nalioth> sladen: ah
<kermitX_> nalioth, better than #ubuntu-nun-habit
<gnomefreak> what happens if they dont know how to except invite  i just learned the other day :(
<nalioth> gnomefreak: good point
<kingspawn> gnomefreak: Just go like "I am going to invite you to a channel. Type /j #channel to join it"
<jenda> Spec: launchpad and read the wiki
<kingspawn> Well, that doesnt mention the name, heh.
<dsas> If you only allow invites, then is there some difficulty of recruiting new people?
<gnomefreak> kingspawn: thats them trying to join not invite right?
<nalioth> i personally don't see the need to move folks on back to #ubuntu, since the helped of today can be the helpers of tomorrow
<Seveas> #ubuntu-classroom is not a new idea but I love to see it worked out
<jenda> dsas: only stable community members should do this type of work anyway
<Seveas> actually it was #ubuntu-school, but classroom is better
<kingspawn> gnomefreak: Yeah, but you just invite them, and then say that they have been invited, type /j #whatnot to accept the invitation
<jenda> Seveas: check.
<hybrid> Seveas: #ubuntu-school "You've Been Schooled!"
<dsas> jenda: I'm just thinking it'll raise the entry barrier for people becoming community members.
* gnomefreak right clicked link and clicked join after invting myself lol
<nalioth> if you invite someone and they don't know they've been invited, you can tell them in #ubuntu how to join and only they'll be able to join, anyway
<nalioth> dsas: there is that, also
<kingspawn> But remember that these are special cases
<kingspawn> People start helping out in #ubuntu all the time
<gnomefreak> agreed
<jenda> dsas: I don't think so. It will soon be a well known thing in #ubuntu.
<kingspawn> Some of them move to offtopic, where they get in touch with others, and maybe then get into the nun-thing
<kingspawn> They ways of irc are strange and many
<gnomefreak> always start in #ubuntu unless its a colpiling issue or code issue  (this way we can also keep offtopic for offtopic
<gnomefreak> compiling*
<Seveas> To get people enthousiastic about helping, #ubuntu-classroom may be a good idea but we have to invest a lot of time in it
* gnomefreak will stay there most of time atleast my nick will be there
<kingspawn> The -classroom would be what we are talking about now, or something else?
<gnomefreak> if im here im here to help
<hybrid> classroom sounds like a good idea
<nalioth> i am still not sure making it invite-only is a good thing
<hybrid> AND you dont need a degree ;)
<nalioth> people outside of -nun will want to help
<gnomefreak> nalioth: im kind of debating ont hat also
<hybrid> -classroom would need to be more open, like nalioth said
<nalioth> if the folks start getting offtopic in -classroom, well, you have +q and /remove
<Seveas> nalioth, no, only you have them ;)
<kingspawn> Heh
<kingspawn> I have "Hush up now"
<gnomefreak> does locobot do factoids?
<Seveas> no
<nalioth> ok, #ubuntu-classroom is up and has admins
<Seveas> ubotu can join #ubuntu-classroom
<Seveas> I'll be running both ubotu and ubugtu soon and will ask for join-limit exceptions so they can be more useful
<gnomefreak> no you cant :(
* gnomefreak cant get in -classroom 
<nalioth> gry now, gnomefreak 
<jenda> gnomefreak: try again
<nalioth> bleh, i really do need to wake up
<gnomefreak> ty
<Spec> people outside of NuN that want to help can help in #ubuntu
<Spec> people inside of NuN (QualityHelp!) have invites....
<Seveas> NuN people shouldn't see themselves as elite helpers, just hard workers
<nalioth> Spec: i don't personally turn down help anywhere
<jenda> Seveas: check. That's for sure.
<Seveas> just because someone knows some more things, he is not better than others
<jenda> THere is nothing elite about dragging newbies away and having the patience to lead them for hours, if need be.
<gnomefreak> i see what they are saying on that though with the bad advice some people are known to give
<Seveas> I've personally always ignored the "seveas is the best" or "nalioth rocks" kind of comments, they're nice to get but nothing more
<jenda> Seveas: I hardly know more things :) But I can introduce people to Linux as well as most techies out there, or better.
<nalioth> just because we are -nun members does not mean we do not give bad advice at times
<kermitX_> Seveas, i certainly don't know more than most ppl, but i have been through what the newbies have been.
<Seveas> kermitX_, we all have
<jenda> Seveas: don't boast, we all know you never get such comments.
* Seveas was little more than a newbie 2 years ago
<Seveas> jenda, hehe
<gnomefreak> nalioth: i agree but we dont sit there and do it all the time (like setting up su)
<kermitX_> Seveas, but so many of the 'geeks' out there, they forget easily how rough it is at the beginning.
<robotgeek> i gotta run too, later folks
<hybrid> at the begining? its tough in the middle too
<nalioth> robotgeek: take care
<gnomefreak> later robotgeek 
<kermitX_> hybrid, heard that. ;)
<dsas> kermitX_: So will you one day. Probably.
<jenda> robotgeek: later
<jenda> dsas, not within the NUN
<nalioth> ok, channel solved, is there any other business?
<gnomefreak> we happy with new channel for support?
<jenda> soo... one more channel issue:
<jenda> to +if or not to +if?
<Seveas> NOT to +if
<gnomefreak> nalioth: the mailing list but im gathering you got that
<jenda> OK, not to.
<nalioth> i really think +if is a bad idea
<gnomefreak> not to +if
<nalioth> i will look into the mailing list
<gnomefreak> ok
<hybrid> jenda: we should keep the classroom open
<hybrid> free education
<jenda> strong vote ;) and i didn't set my own opinion.
<jenda> indeed. :)
<gnomefreak> lol
<jenda> I'm a little afraid we might need to +m later. But for now, everything is OK
<jenda> Next?
<jenda> :)
<gnomefreak> what about a meeting schedule?
<jenda> two weeks is standard...
<jenda> but perhaps we should meet next week?
<jenda> to see it through the start?
<gnomefreak> jenda: every other thursday at 1700 UTC?
<nalioth> gnomefreak: i think meetings should be 'as needed'
<gnomefreak> k
<jenda> agreed. Next thursday at 17:00?
<gnomefreak> jenda: depends on the agenda i would say
<jenda> OK
* gnomefreak thinks the mailing list and the wiki are 2 things that need att
<jenda> agreed there. 
<jenda> /NewUserNetwork needs some love
<kermitX_> mailing list top priority so i don't forget meetings. ;)
<gnomefreak> lol kermitX_ 
<L1nx> So... Is the classroom exclusive to recieving help, or can I just listen in?
<jenda> I can write it once I get all the ideas in my head :)
<hybrid> ill look into /NewUserNetwork jenda 
<jenda> L1nx: feel free, I guess.
<hybrid> or you can ;)
<kermitX_> mailing list might reduce need for official meetings?
<gnomefreak> L1nx: too hard a questionm lol
<nalioth> i will get the mailing list running (again)
<jenda> hybrid: whoever finds the time first ;)
<hybrid> jenda: sounds good
<nalioth> L1nx: you are welcome to lurk (you might even jump in and help )
<L1nx> Cool
<hybrid> L1nx: only if you are on my side though :p just kidding
<gnomefreak> just keep in mind guys this is not an alternative to #ubuntu
<nalioth> gnomefreak is correct
<gnomefreak> noraml support needs to go to #ubuntu still
<gnomefreak> or however you spell those words ;)
<gnomefreak> nalioth: go to bed your making me tired ;)
<kermitX_> L1nx, think of -classroom like ducking into a quiet corner to actually be able to carry on a conversation at a rave or something.
<kermitX_> will the NUN mailing list be for NUN "personnel" only?
<nalioth> yes, just members afaik
<nalioth> ok, channel sorted, mailing list will be looked at.  any other business?
<kermitX_> when we get done using -channel. what do we do with the "client". ask them to leave or boot 'em?
<gnomefreak> nalioth: not yet really just need to find out whos active nad whos not but we wait on mailing list for that
<kermitX_> *-classroom
<nalioth> gnomefreak: correct.
<gnomefreak> thats it there was something else on angeda but didnt want to get rid of it incase it was important
<nalioth> kermitX_: i'd recommend a gentle reminder that -classroom is for detailed help on one subject (the one you dragged the user in there for) and that #ubuntu would be more overall helpful
<hybrid> kermitX_: /kick is bad
<jenda> nice... so we have something done now.
<nalioth> kermitX_: and then ignore them heh heh
<kingspawn> Haha
<gnomefreak> ignore is worse than kick imho
<nalioth> gnomefreak: will your 'something else' wait or not?
* kermitX_ trying to figure out his way through launchpad.
<gnomefreak> nalioth: i dont know whos it is or what its about its been there as far back as i can remember
<jenda> Ops do NOT /ignore
<jenda> right?
<gnomefreak> right
<jenda> neither should NUNs IMO
<nalioth> jenda: that is for another discussion
<nalioth> ok. Any other business?
<gnomefreak> nope
<gnomefreak> afaik we can call it over
<jenda> OK
<nalioth> i move for meeting adjournment
<kingspawn> Alright.
<hybrid> second
* jenda does too
<jenda> hybrid: 4th
<jenda> hybrid: 5th
<gnomefreak> ok im out of this channel
<jenda> actually :)
<nalioth> y'all take care, we'll see you around the big wide internet
<hybrid> jenda: it's formally a second and then the president takes a vote
<hybrid> out to hit the iron
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 17:00 UTC: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 21 Jun 13:30 UTC: Xubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-09
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
<Klaidas> @schedule vilnius
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vilnius: 14 Jun 15:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 20:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 23:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 16:30: Xubuntu
<jenda> CC meeting still not announced...
<Kamion> oh, huh, I guess it is this week
<Kamion> I'll be on holiday
* Kamion mails community-council@ about that and to remind somebody to book the meeting time
<jenda> thx, Kamion
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-10
* myriams is back.
* myriams is away: Away at the moment
<jenda> Who sets the time for CC meetings?
<Seveas> the CC
<Seveas> myriams_away, please turn off away messages in here
<kermitX_> @schedule Chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 14 Jun 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 12:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 15:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 08:30: Xubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-06-11
<PFA> w00t
<BlueT_> @schedule taipei
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Taipei: 14 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 21:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 01:00: Documentation Team | 21 Jun 04:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 21:30: Xubuntu
<jenda> @schedule Prague
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Prague: 14 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu | 15 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 15 Jun 19:00: Documentation Team | 20 Jun 22:00: Technical Board | 21 Jun 15:30: Xubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-04
<davengames17> Hi everyone
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<Lure> @schedule ljubljana
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 05 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 05 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 06 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-05
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<zarul> smurf
<zarul> u there?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<Keybuk> oops
<Keybuk> bad fingers day
<mdz> no issues have been brought before the technical board today
<Keybuk> joined ubuntu-meeting on the wrong network, then joined utbuntu-meeting on this
<mdz> is there any last-minute business to attend to?
<mdz> good, because my wrists ache
<mdz> mjg59: nothing to do
<mjg59> Ok
<mdz> mjg59: thanks for coming by
<mjg59> No problem
<Seveas> mdz, wow, this is much easier to summariz than the CC meetings :)
<shawarma> win 4
<shawarma> Yeah, that'll work.. doh.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
<effraie> @shedule Paris
<bashelier> effraie: mwahahaha
<effraie> bashelier: a devarit marcher?
<bashelier> effraie: it should, looks like you have broken an other bot ^^"
<effraie> we need effraie-proof bots
<mc44> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 06 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Developers
<bashelier> XD
<mc44> effraie: just need to spell right :)
<effraie> erf
<effraie> ok
<effraie> thanks, mc44
<bashelier> effraie: were you looking for the next CC ? =)
<effraie> yes :)
<bashelier> hehe
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-06
<bashelier> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 06 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Developers
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<juliux> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 06 Jun 20:00: Edubuntu | 07 Jun 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 15:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 12:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00: Xubuntu Developers
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
<LaserJock> time?
* ogra waves
* willvdl waves
<willvdl> LaserJock, 10pm
<ogra> same here :)
<LaserJock> 1pm here
<LaserJock> silly people
<ogra> heh
<ogra> todays meeting would have been a EC meeting
<ogra> whatever that means nowadays ...
<LaserJock> ah, that reminds me
<LaserJock> well, we do have a fairly big pile of applicants
* pips1 waves
<ogra> well, nobody o the agenda
<ogra> i just looked
<LaserJock> I approved stgraber the other day
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure that people know they need to be added
<ogra> i wonder if the procedure is to unclear
<willvdl> I'll look into it
<LaserJock> we can fix that on the team description
<willvdl> if it isn't it probably is my fault :)
<ogra> The Edubuntu council will review membership candidates at every first meeting in a month, please add yourself below and subscribe to [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/people/edubuntu-members. Note that the same membership rules as in Ubuntu apply.
<ogra> from the agenda page ...
<willvdl> we should have it on the wiki
<LaserJock> but the EC *has* technically run out
<ogra> with a bit adjustment it should fit for the team page
<pips1> can we vote on including someone as a member in his/her absence?
<ogra> LaserJock. ?
<LaserJock> yes, people us LP for teams these days, wiki pages don't necessarily get done
<LaserJock> ogra: the EC memberships where for 2 releases, which ended with Feisty's release
<LaserJock> *were
<ogra> oh, we need to refresh then
<ogra> unless someone wants to step back
<LaserJock> well, I somehow feel like we should have some sort of procedure for this
<ogra> well, we should keep such discussions for meetings where the full EC is around
<LaserJock> yes, you're right
<ogra> i'd like to have highvoltage ad RichEd attending for such stuff
<LaserJock> sure
<ogra> anyway, lets get started ...
<pips1> I vote for Gavin MCullagh as edubuntu member, he rocks! :-)
<ogra> i'll try to keep tech as short as possible today, since i'm currently trying to get the liveCD fixed aside here
<ogra> pips1. right, but he needs to attend the meeting at least
<ogra> i'd happily approve him indeed
<ogra> i'll mail him about it
<pips1> good idea
<ogra> ok, anyway, the tribe1 CD is due tomorrow ...
<ogra> https://isotesting.stgraber.org/isotesting/iso/Edubuntu
<ogra> the liveCD is still oversized and due to a bug in the build system it couldnt get fixed until now, i'm working on getting a properly sized iso done tonight though
<ogra> the i386 CD should be fine for use and not be much different to gutsy
<ogra> please test as you can ...
<ogra> ltsp ...
<LaserJock> are there any notes for what to test on the Desktop CDs?
<ogra> one of our biggest bootspeed issues, X detection will be dropped in the next upload
<LaserJock> or is there no link because they aren't built yet
<ogra> LaserJock. live session and ubiquity for now
<ogra> its only the first milestone
<ogra> its fine if it roughly works
<LaserJock> I can do most of i386 tonight I think
<willvdl> ogra, what does it mean to drop X detection?
<ogra> willvdl. 20seconds fsater boots
<ogra> *faster
<willvdl> I mean what does X detect do :)
<LaserJock> willvdl: we were doing autodetection of X on the clients
<willvdl> server checking for X on the clients?
<LaserJock> for automatically setting up X on the clients
<ogra> xorg 7.3 and the new xrandr can detect the X setup at runtime now, so no xorg.conf is needed anymore
<LaserJock> the Xorg "magic"
<willvdl> gotcha
<LaserJock> so are we just not using autodetection?
<ogra> before we had a script that ran dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg on boot which was very time consuming
<willvdl> great, cause xorg.conf is a mystery to me :)
<ogra> LaserJock. right
<LaserJock> ugg, dpkg-reconfigure on every boot?
<LaserJock> that's no fun
<ogra> i will leave the code in but add an option for lts.conf to force its usage, by default we'll use xorg's magic
<ogra> it makes the booting incredibly fast
<ogra> and worked on all clients i tried it on
<ogra> two issues are left with that though
<ogra> funny mouse setups ...
<ogra> (27 button cybermice with 4 scrollwheels and vibrator)
<ogra> they might be problematic t set up in the beginning ...
<ogra> nad keyboards ...
<ogra> *and
<willvdl> four that cousin that looks like your brother?
<ogra> i'm not sure yet how to handle keyboard settings ... there are several options
<ogra> anyway, that will be a major change in tsp and a big step forward technically
<ogra> *ltsp
<willvdl> a post config script perhaps?
<ogra> yes, indeed
<ogra> or simply running xmodmap after x startup
<ogra> thats about all i have to say about tech today ...
<ogra> i sent the priority list for specs to Keybuk, but he didnt assig the prios yet
<LaserJock> I'm a little closer to core-dev
<ogra> due to time costraints RichEd and i didnt have the opportunity to go through approving yet either
<LaserJock> hopefully soonish I'll have a interview with the TB and they'll decide
<ogra> yeah, to bad that didnt happen yesterday
<LaserJock> I'm working on categorization for the add-on CD
<LaserJock> ogra: I've got a tech question for you about that, what do we ship from XFCE4?
<LaserJock> do we ship a complete xfce4 on the add-on CD?
<ogra> its in the ship-addon seeds, let me look
<LaserJock> hmm, from the seed it looks pretty complete
<LaserJock> but it's a bit hazy from the .desktops
<ogra> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/24479/
<LaserJock> because there are only .desktops for like the plugins
<ogra> a xfce-meta.desktop file ?
<ogra> or edubuntu-xfce
<LaserJock> anyway, by looking at the current CD contents I came up with the following categories
<LaserJock> ogra: yeah, that's what I'm thinking we need
<ogra> good, lets have it :)
<LaserJock>  * Young Children
<LaserJock>  * Graphics
<LaserJock>  * Science
<LaserJock>  * Extras
<LaserJock>  * KDE Edutainment
<LaserJock>  * XFCE4
<ogra> i dont like XFCE4
<LaserJock> as a category or period? :-)
<ogra> how bout something like * Light Desktop (xfce)
<LaserJock> ok sure
<ogra> nobody has an idea what XFCE might mean
<ogra> apart from us probably
<willvdl> what does it mean? :)
<LaserJock> so those categories are what would be in the g-a-i menu
<LaserJock> any other suggestions?
<willvdl> LaserJock, what about collaboration stuff? e.g. moodle, other cms's
<ogra> * Games ?
<LaserJock> well, we don't have those yet
<LaserJock> ogra: well, I was thinking that the games would go in "Young Children"
<ogra> ah
<LaserJock> do we have games for older people on there?
<ogra> right
<willvdl> could we pslit the kde-edu stuff into the categories? probably not, it's one package right?
<ogra> ot yet
<ogra> but its surely possible
<LaserJock> well, we can split them up
<LaserJock> in the menu
<LaserJock> but at this point I wonder if people are more thinking "I'm looking for the KDE edu stuff"
<willvdl> cause kde-edu has maths, science, language...
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> what I was planning
<willvdl> LaserJock, except those who have o idea what it is
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> is if we get more apps for other categories we split it up
<LaserJock> but I don't want a category with one item I guess
<LaserJock> or would that be fine?
<willvdl> sounds right
<ogra> well
<willvdl> makes sense.
<ogra> yep
<LaserJock> we have 53 .desktops right now
<LaserJock> 17 of them are xfce
<LaserJock> roughly 15 KDEEdu
<LaserJock> well, the other thing is, what is the best way to get testing of this?
<LaserJock> I could manually adjust the menus and desktops
<LaserJock> and rebuild the .iso
<ogra> add info how to test it to the testing procedures
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure if that's helpful for people to have to download the whole .iso to test
<ogra> oh, you mean during development
<LaserJock> yes
<ogra> well, you should rsync
<ogra> and we should work on the real iso
<ogra> it wont change much so the rsyncs will be very fast
<LaserJock> well, I guess I just need to bug cjwatson and figure out how that app-install directory gets on there
<LaserJock> if it's fairly easy then I can make adjustments and we can see the results in the dailies
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> alright, I think that's enough from me
<ogra> at least if mvo cant help
<LaserJock> I asked mvo and pitti already
<ogra> i always thoght app-install-data was responsible
<LaserJock> well, my question is how it actually ends up on the .iso
<LaserJock> perhaps I'm not clearly stating my question
<LaserJock> I don't think I have access to the build scripts that do that part
<ogra> hmm
<LaserJock> I looked through ubuntu-cdimage and couldn't find anything
<ogra> right
<LaserJock> I mean, the app-install directory is like what app-install-data provides
<ogra> well, colin might be able to help
<LaserJock> but I don't know where to tap into to get my modifications on the add-on CD
<ogra> yep i understand
<ogra> more tech questions ?
<LaserJock> I'm good I think
<willvdl> not here
<ogra> then lets move on
<ogra> docs ?
<willvdl> well, I'd like to do website first if that's OK?
<LaserJock> well, nixternal is scheduling a Doc Team meeting
<ogra> indeed
<LaserJock> I'm listed as required to attend for Edubuntu
<LaserJock> that's all from me
<willvdl> LaserJock, I'll do my bit to be there
<ogra> cool
<LaserJock> willvdl: that would be good
<willvdl> I'm behind on the procedures. the kenya trip threw me a bit
<mvo> ogra, LaserJock: I did some hacking with cjwatson on this, but I can't remember what bzr branch was responsible for this (colin did most of the work on the cdimage front)
<willvdl> but matt east has done good work with the team page
<ogra> mvo. i'll find out, thanks
<willvdl> it's way better than my attempt tod escribe things :)
<LaserJock> mvo: ok, thanks.
<pips1> willvdl: link?
<willvdl> erm, wiki.ubuntu.com/DocTeam or something
<willvdl> I'm a wiki editor for help.u.com now
<willvdl> so I can remove those annoying old and duplicated cookbooks
<ogra> cool
<LaserJock> DocumentationTeam probably
<willvdl> it's good anyway
<willvdl> shall we chat website?
<ogra> shoot
<willvdl> did anyone discuss it last week?
<pips1> well,...
<pips1> I kind of missed my cue last time
* willvdl notices no minutes :(
<LaserJock> I don't remember last week
<pips1> when I started my report, everybody had gone already ;-D
<willvdl> urk
<LaserJock> oh, wait, that would've been 5am, I wasn't here
<willvdl> lazy boy
<LaserJock> blah, I was up til 3am last night with Ubuntu stuff
<willvdl> ok, I checked minutes form previous week
<willvdl> items are:
<willvdl> drupal 5.1
* pips1 pinches willvdl for teasing laser
<willvdl> theme template
<nixternal> willvdl: I will let you know the date and time of the meeting...what is a "best" time for you?
<willvdl> and our own customisation
<pips1> right
<willvdl> nixternal, my evenings. I'm UTC+2
<willvdl> actually, the timezones normally work out OK for me. jsut not a weekend :)
<willvdl> pips1, have you or highvoltage received anything from newz2000?
<pips1> highvoltage volunteered to customise the template, apparently, he got the template from matt nuzum and started working on it. last week, he said he would put up the reworked template for comments... as soon as he is ready
<pips1> haven't spoken to highvoltage since, though
<willvdl> OK good news
<LaserJock> he's probably off starting a new company
<LaserJock> slacker
<LaserJock> ;-)
<pips1> as for me, I have been busy with my day job :-/ nothing to report really :-(
<willvdl> pips1, likewise :(
* nixternal hasn't been busy enough
<pips1> heh
<willvdl> as soon as we have that template, let's setup the proposed edubuntu-website team
<willvdl> and brainstorm our content
<willvdl> wiki vs web etc.
<pips1> well, no need to wait for the template to brainstorm on content, really
<willvdl> meaning, how to fit what into where. but yes, you're right :)
<nixternal> just put a picture of me on there and you sell cds like hotcakes!
<LaserJock> sell like hotcakes where?
<willvdl> nixternal, are you the little girl on the edubuntu cover?
<pips1> nixternal: hehe
<willvdl> hawwtckes
<nixternal> I hope not
<LaserJock> willvdl: lol
<pips1> willvdl: lol
<nixternal> gahaha
<ogra> heh
<LaserJock> well, I think it's a good idea to brainstorm the web content on the wiki
<pips1> ok
<LaserJock> then when it's been tossed around enough, get it cleaned up and put in drupal
<LaserJock> we need to focus people to edubuntu.org
<LaserJock> as the primary starting point
<willvdl> yeah. as much static info on there as possible rather than wiki
<LaserJock> so we need to make sure that the stuff people really need is either on there or linked from there
<LaserJock> it's not bad to have a short bit on something and link to a wiki page for more info
<LaserJock> but things like this silly Desktop CD issue
<willvdl> ok, let's check with highvoltage tomorrow. is he putting up a sandbox?
<pips1> static = proof read, generalised (or at least tagged as 6.06 LTS and 'Latest greatest' release)
<willvdl> LaserJock, exactly what I mean
<LaserJock> we need to have a nice big notice that people shouldn't be installing via the Desktop CD
<LaserJock> we also need to put some dynamic in the frontpage
<LaserJock> people want to see new news and things
<willvdl> static also means links to things that don't change, release notes, news items, team info etc.
<willvdl> alot of our current wiki can go in there
<pips1> right
<LaserJock> well, you want to strike a balance
<LaserJock> between having to maintain a hug pile of static docs
<willvdl> OK, first things first: drupal 5.1?
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> we can start working on content on the wiki right now
<pips1> yep
<LaserJock> we should tag wiki docs we want to go on edubuntu.org
<willvdl> not sure it will be that simple
<pips1> not first things first but things-to-be-done-in-parallel :-)
<willvdl> :)
<willvdl> we should tag info or sections that can go on the web. the wiki pages are quite convoluted
<pips1> (well, best-effort-in-parallel)
<LaserJock> well, it's not like we update to drupal 5.1 and all of a sudden content pops out ;-)
<willvdl> why not? why are we using t drupal then?
<LaserJock> because, it's shiny
<willvdl> drupalAI
<willvdl> just kidding
<pips1> lol
<pips1> you guys are cracking me up
<nixternal> cuz drupal is hawwt
<LaserJock> willvdl: drupalAI that plugs into some Google search API?
<willvdl> so we'll make a website page under edubuntu/devel or something
<willvdl> awesome
<pips1> anyway, I can do a clean install of drupal...
<willvdl> pips1, you've got a sandbox right?
<LaserJock> willvdl: yes, and we can just list candidates there
<pips1> willvdl: yes, I have a sandbox
<LaserJock> willvdl: those are good bite-size tasks for contributors
<LaserJock> "we need these wiki pages cleaned up before going on edubuntu.org"
<willvdl> is it live? i.e. as in on the web?
<willvdl> LaserJock, that reminds me, nearly done with BST structure
<pips1> and I have access to the current .org server, I just haven't had the time to familiarise myself with that box / have a look what is already setup on that box regarding apache/mysql, etc
<pips1> willvdl: yes, my sandbox server can be accessed online, the beta site is running on it too
<willvdl> excellent
<willvdl> so we can devel it parallel
<pips1> yep
<willvdl> I know I'm jumping around but LaserJock, can you repeat what you said to me the other day about MOTU recipes?
<LaserJock> oh, sure
<LaserJock> well we've started this wiki project
<LaserJock> MOTU Recipies
<LaserJock> where people can write sort of HowTo like pages for specific packaging tasks
<LaserJock> like making a debdiff
<LaserJock> or doing a merge
<LaserJock> it's a bit more indepth than just a FAQ
<LaserJock> it's a bit more like topics in the Topic Based Help system
<LaserJock> anyway
<LaserJock> I was thinking this might be cool for Edubuntu
<LaserJock> and in fact, if we got a good collection of Edubuntu Recipes
<LaserJock> then an Edubuntu Cookbook becomes a natural outcome
<pips1> fingers crossed
<pips1> :-)
<willvdl> it could even be like "my edubuntu recipe" or how I installed my lab
<LaserJock> since it's on a wiki people can add/enhance as they come across things
<LaserJock> willvdl: exactly
<ogra> gavin started some nice docs recently
<willvdl> I really think this is the best way to capture contributions
<willvdl> ogra, the FAQ?
<ogra> we need to make sure to get them over to us
<LaserJock> in #ubuntu-motu when people come across something we're asking them if they'd write it up
<ogra> the faq and some debgging docs as well iirc
<ogra> i.e. how to set up bootchart on thin clients to measure bootspeed
<pips1> \o/
<willvdl> ah. the FAQ is now on help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuFAQ. i won't be linked off main page cause of it's structure
<willvdl> ogra, I missed that, but a perfect recipe
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes/PackageUpdate is an example
<LaserJock> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes/Debdiff
<willvdl> this way we can stick to the procedure we decided at UDS: grab contributions and then collate into handbook in timely fashion before release
<LaserJock> we might want to come up with a little list of desired recipes
<LaserJock> just to get some things kicked off
<willvdl> yeah, we can capture the current handbook
<willvdl> a recipe could be *anything*, even what FLOSS means to education...
<LaserJock> well, it will be anything the community is concerned enough to write about ;-)
* pips1 smiles when he reads "For Bonus Points..." on the recipe
<willvdl> we might need to call it the cookbook again :)
<ogra> yay
<LaserJock> well, I can see having both, handbook being a reference doc
<willvdl> just kidding
<LaserJock> and cookbook being, well, a cookbook
<LaserJock> but recipes work well for both
<LaserJock> the basic problem is we need content
<LaserJock> it's really not so important how we get it
<pips1> yeah, think handbook = dusty tome, and cookbook = dogeared and greasy binder
<willvdl> ++
<willvdl> LaserJock, as Scotty so aptly poited out at UDS
<LaserJock> we (edubuntu doc people) can turn content into the desired form
<LaserJock> but we need content first
<LaserJock> and I think it's best if that comes from the community
<willvdl> our procedure then jsut needs to have a recipre freeze with enough time to collate handbook
<LaserJock> yep, or maybe not even that
<LaserJock> we can do a recipe snapshot
<LaserJock> and build static docs out of that
<willvdl> still need to dump into xml
<LaserJock> especially if we end up doing some moin2docbook
<willvdl> LaserJock, are you positive that will work well enough?
<LaserJock> nope
* willvdl hears divided views
<LaserJock> but it's better than nothing
<pips1> I like the idea that people are encourage to write down *their* setup, rather than asking to write only about the "ideal" setup that never gets written...?
<willvdl> there is no "ideal" setup
<LaserJock> in fact, to start with
<pips1> *encouraged
<LaserJock> the "Cookbook" could be a static doc on edubuntu.org that merely links to the wiki pages
<pips1> hmm
<willvdl> hmm, help.u.com?
<LaserJock> and Handbook writers can just look over recipes and copy-n-paste
<LaserJock> well
<willvdl> LaserJock, cookbook may just as well link straight to wiki
<pips1> when you say, "static doc", do you mean "merely a introductory sentence with navigational links"?
<LaserJock> help.u.c doesn't have very good structure for handling Edubuntu
<willvdl> LaserJock, we'll change that in the meeting :)
<willvdl> noone can find kubuntu docs anymore either
<LaserJock> willvdl: why not edubuntu.org?
<LaserJock> I fail to see the point of having a website if we don't put anything on it ;-)
<willvdl> because there is already help.ubuntu.com...
<willvdl> fair enough :)
<willvdl> moot point
<LaserJock> well, if we can have it on help.ubuntu.com that's fine
<willvdl> one thing at a time I guess
<LaserJock> but I think we need to work on HTML and PDF versions of docs as well
<willvdl> ++
<LaserJock> our users are a tad different than the usual Ubuntu user I think in this regard
<willvdl> to summarise:
* pips1 stands back and listens to the doc conversation
<LaserJock> teachers/admins are going to want to go to edubuntu.org and download some PDF docs
<willvdl> it can be shipped in edubuntu-docs package too
<LaserJock> yes, space permitting :-)
<willvdl> 2 cds dude
<willvdl> oh
<willvdl> right
<willvdl> summary: (i want to capture this on paper :)
<willvdl> FAQ on help.u.com/community for capturing FAQ style thingies
<willvdl> recipes on help.ubuntu.com/community for capturing Topics and Setups etc.
<willvdl> LTSP docs also go on wiki presumably in different section as they get linked from SErver section off main page
<willvdl> then just before doc freeze we collate recipes in cookbook
<willvdl> and handbook folks can write handbook off it
<willvdl> we release on edubuntu.org
<willvdl> and package as much as possible
<willvdl> .
<willvdl> sound right?
<LaserJock> pretty much
<pips1> yep
<willvdl> how long do we need to collate?
<LaserJock> well, cookbook = recipe Table of Contents
<LaserJock> so that shouldn't take long
<LaserJock> handbook stuff takes much longer
<willvdl> handbook is differnet yeah.
<willvdl> since we can draw from many sources
<LaserJock> string freeze is Sept. 13th
<willvdl> and has different scope
<willvdl> one week?
<LaserJock> which essentially only valid for the handbook and TBH Topics
<willvdl> we don't have TBH stuff though
<LaserJock> well, some of the recipes could end up being TBH
<willvdl> right. and LTSP definately should too
<nixternal> LaserJock: are we going to convert to TBH?
<LaserJock> I'd like to have a draft Cookbook at Beta Freeze
<LaserJock> nixternal: I don't think really convert
<LaserJock> just provide topics as appropriate
<willvdl> nixternal, we would like to have something in  TBH
<LaserJock> I don't want to force too much work
<LaserJock> so if a recipe or section in Handbook seem like they'd make a good topic, then lets do it
<nixternal> well if you decide on it, I can start the layout changes as necessary
<willvdl> let's not worry about it for gutsy
<nixternal> leave the handbook alone and create a topic based setup then?
<willvdl> let's just get something decent out
<LaserJock> ok, fundamental question
<nixternal> well, most of the topic based stuff can be read from ubuntu docs right?
<LaserJock> do we want to continue the Edubuntu Handbook for gutsy?
<willvdl> the handbook is supposed to be a resource for educators
<LaserJock> ok, so should we ship that in Gnome Help?
<willvdl> the recipes are going to fill that role
<willvdl> perhaps make handbook = recipes and the rest TBH
<LaserJock> ok, I'm a little concerned about resources
<willvdl> my brain hurts
<LaserJock> I was thinking more handbook = reference cookbook and TBH = recipies
<willvdl> ok. then we need to decide on topic categories
<willvdl> which should be easy
<LaserJock> blah, we need a little doc sprint
<LaserJock> this is getting long and a bit OT
<willvdl> yeah. mainly my fault
<LaserJock> nah, I'm not very clear still on what we want to do and if we can pull it off
<nixternal> maybe setup an irc meeting for edubuntu docs sometime soon?
<willvdl> well, we chatted in UDS and the bottom line was "get the info into a wiki"
<LaserJock> yes
<nixternal> probably should be clear prior to having a main doc team meeting
<willvdl> as priority
<willvdl> yes
<LaserJock> I think the idea of Edubuntu Recipes is a good way to get content on the wiki
<LaserJock> we need to promote it and really push it
<willvdl> ++
<LaserJock> then as it gets closer to release the edubuntu-doc team can finalize what we want to ship
<LaserJock> given the amount of content we have
<LaserJock> if it's a flop there's no sense and making plans
<willvdl> we have two scopes and they get confused a bit :)
<LaserJock> willvdl: can you make (if it isn't already) and area on help.u.c/communit for the FAQ and Recipies
<willvdl> FAQ is there
<willvdl> I'll do it for recipes
<LaserJock> when we've got that ready for people to start contributing we'll do a media blitz
<willvdl> I want ot make the FAQ release specific as well
<LaserJock> well, get it set so that people can start editing then email edubuntu-devel
<willvdl> I'll capture tonights discussion into a wiki page on wiki.e.org and then we can mung that around
<willvdl> and edubuntu-users
<LaserJock> then I can blog and fridge it
<LaserJock> ubuntu-education
<willvdl> the whole WORLD!
<willvdl> tatto it on your children's foreheads
<LaserJock> and especially when people come into #edubuntu
<LaserJock> and they figure something out, say "can you add that to ...?"
<LaserJock> or "mind writing up a recipe for that on ...?"
<willvdl> LaserJock, ++ for the recipe idea. so simple and will fix so many problems
* pips1 can be seen smiling faintly about willvdl's kids tatoo comment
<willvdl> much easier than docs + use cases that never appear
<willvdl> pips1, check out the outpost.com commercials. must be on youtube
<LaserJock> I don't have kids, but the cat might not mind ;-)
<pips1> hehe
<willvdl> he
<willvdl> shall we leave it here?
<LaserJock> I think so, for me anyway
<LaserJock> I'm tired
<LaserJock> and it's only 2:30pm
<willvdl> pips1, I've got some stuff to add to community blog
<pips1> great
<willvdl> about eLEarning Africa. jsut need to edit out the canonical stuff
<pips1> ?
<pips1> just go ahead, I'm not going to hold you back
<LaserJock> btw, if anybody has interesting news items about Edubuntu let me know and I'll throw it on Fridge
<willvdl> I wrote a canonical report which won't be of much interest to community.
<pips1> ah
<willvdl> pips1, just remind me in a few days to do it. it's midway on my priorities
* pips1 just wishes he had more time
<willvdl> we'll attract more people. jeust need the tipping point
<pips1> willvdl: don't ask me to remind you, just do it!
<pips1> :-P
<willvdl> I'll forget!
<pips1> pfft
<LaserJock> pips1: just write a cron job that emails and does an IRC poke
<pips1> ok, I'll *encourage* you to contribute
<pips1> LaserJock: hehe
<willvdl> LaserJock, I'll flood ping you you bastard!
<LaserJock> heh
<pips1> tsk
<willvdl> I demand the personal touch!
<willvdl> dudes, as usual, very informative tonight. need to write this up. back to #e
<LaserJock> ok, so a cron job that wake up highvoltage to go ping you
<pips1> poor h.
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily-live/20070606.5/ seems to be good for testing
<LaserJock> ogra: awesome
<willvdl> heh
<ogra> finally they are properly sized, sigh
<pips1> ogra: very timely reminder that we haven't been doing anything but talking, while you were silently ploughing away as always ;-)
<LaserJock> ogra: is an rsync of these from Feisty any good?
<pips1> ohhh, do you have an updated rsync script?
* pips1 wants it
<ogra> LaserJock. it might speed up a bit, yes
<ogra> pips1. nope
<ogra> i'm rsyncing manually ...
<pips1> ic
<LaserJock> that's what I do too
<ogra> feel free to take the old one and fix the paths :)
<LaserJock> since I usually only do like 1 at at time
<LaserJock> *a
<ogra> well, i do 6, but thats a simple for loop :)
* pips1 vaguely remembers fiddling about with the paths in the script
<LaserJock> I usually have to use ogra's rsync script to figure out the rsync commands
<ogra> lol
<pips1> hihi
<pips1> ok, guys, great comedy tonight, I'm off... good night
<ogra> yeah meeting eds here ...
<willvdl> minutes are up
<effraie> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 07 Jun 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Developers
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-07
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 08 Jun 06:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Jun 01:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu | 15 Jun 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 17 Jun 03:00: Xubuntu Developers | 20 Jun 05:00: Technical Board
<evand> @schedule new_york
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 07 Jun 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 11:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 08:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 13:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 15:00: Technical Board
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board
* agoliveira waves all
<dholbach> hiya agoliveira
<Riddell> evening
<pitti> hi
<mathiaz> hello
* ogra waves
<bryyce> hi all
<keescook> hiya
<evand> hello
* bdmurray thinks of something different
<bdmurray> olleh
<cjwatson> good evening all
<dholbach> bdmurray: (-: o
<bdmurray> doh, that didn't render well
<pitti> dholbach: erk
<pitti> here it did
<pitti> but it hurts my eyes :)
<kylem> moo.
<bdmurray> I blame keescook
<pitti> bdmurray: no, its not a 'X rendering fonts upside down' bug :)
<keescook> bdmurray: get yer own colo! ;)
<shawarma> Good evening, all.
<fabbione> evening
<asac> hi all
<dholbach> cjwatson: doko told me he might be 5 minutes late
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> thanks
<cjwatson> asac,rtg__: ping?
<rtg__> dong
<dholbach> wow.... hey mvo
<asac> cjwatson: 5 lines above :)
<mvo> good evening
<mvo> hey dholbach
* Mithrandir pongs
<asac> evening mr. mvo
<cjwatson> asac: err, sorry, didn't mean you :)
<cjwatson> bryyce: ping
<bryyce> heya
<cjwatson> cool
<cjwatson> now where's mdz
<cjwatson> mdz: pingaling
<Keybuk> stuck at the mercy of British Rail I'm afraid
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070607
<Keybuk> let's get started while mdz is delayed
<Keybuk> everybody here?
* ogra waves
<Riddell> I am
<Keybuk> I see everyone from my team, Colin and Heno, everyone from yours?
<agoliveira> The ones absent, please raise your hands!
<heno> Keybuk: yep
<cjwatson> Keybuk: yes
<Keybuk> everyone from mdz's looks to be here too?
<shawarma> Think so.
<mathiaz> yop
<Keybuk> so, we have some new people with us today
<bryyce> yay!
<Keybuk> keescook has returned from the IS team, and will be working on security, and filling in his spare time with some server work
<keescook> \o/
<mvo> welcome back!
<asac> keescook: welcome back!
<shawarma> Yay, keescook!
* dholbach hugs keescook
<keescook> thanks; I missed you guys.  :)
* pitti hugs keescook, welcome back to distro!
* agoliveira is sad for not being the "youngish" anymore :(
* agoliveira just kidding
<Keybuk> and heno has bravely stepped up to lead our QA efforts, and will be reporting to mdz and leading the new QA team; the first member of which is bdmurray
* fabbione grins at new fresh blood in the team...
<cjwatson> QA> there will be more
<heno> indeed
<bdmurray> that'll be nice
<kylem> more quality? :P
* keescook hugs heno, "congratz!"
* dholbach hugs heno and bdmurray :-)
<cjwatson> kylem: maaaaaaaaybe
<pitti> Quality! Quality! Quality!
<heno> I'm assigning bugs to all of you as we speak :)
* keescook hugs bdmurray too
<keescook> :)
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: spare time?  What's that? :-P
<dholbach> heno: python-launchpad-bugs FTW :)
* heno looks ...
<Keybuk> if everyone's read the agenda and reports, any further agenda items before we get started?
<cjwatson> I encourage those of you with ideas or problems related to quality, bugs, etc. to make sure heno is aware of them so that he can include them in plans
<heno> yep, tips and suggestions welcome!
<Keybuk> aha, an mdz!
<Keybuk> no longer at the mercy of SouthEastern trains, eh?
<BenC> heno: please ping me when you have ample time :)
<agoliveira> mdz_: hi boss
<cjwatson> so no more agenda items; let's go on with those we have
<mdz_> Keybuk: south west
<cjwatson> Where is the right place to carry kernel /proc/sys settings? (kees)
<cjwatson> historically this has been in procps, but I agree that the conffile merge is a bit nasty
<Keybuk> keescook: so there's obviously /etc/sysctl.conf, but that's not really great
<kylem> cjwatson, why not have an /etc/sysctl.d? :)
<cjwatson> haha donk
<Keybuk> there's the double-not-great there of also it only gets done once
<cjwatson> nightmare ;-)
<keescook> right, I already did the procps change, but I thought I'd double check
<Keybuk> so if the sysctl is for a module, it won't take effect
<heno> BenC: will do, thanks
<cjwatson> Keybuk: interesting point
<kylem> Keybuk, modules can't register sysctls iirc
<keescook> aaah, yeah
<kylem> it's a static kernel table.
<keescook> so, this is (currently) for core kernel features.
<kylem> i'm 99% sure...
<cjwatson> BenC: are you willing to have your team take such patches?
<keescook> I expect more, though
<BenC> sysctl.d sounds like a good idea
<Keybuk> kylem: /proc/sys/net/ipv6 ? :p
<cjwatson> doko: welcome
<mdz_> keescook: what's the use case you're trying to address?
<BenC> cjwatson: which kind of patches?
<BenC> for procps?
<Keybuk> my thoughts in the past was indded an /etc/sysctl.d that would get re-run on each module load
<kylem> Keybuk, good point.
<doko> sorry, a bit late
<keescook> mdz_: the use-case is me getting controversial security features into mainline kernel.
<kylem> Keybuk, apparently maybe things have changed in the intervening 7 years since i cared about a sysctl :P
<mdz_> keescook: which require boot-time initialization of sysctls?
<keescook> I've been allowed to do it as long as I provide a /proc toggle
<Keybuk> keescook: does the sysctl turn them on or off?
<mdz_> ah
<cjwatson> sysctl.d does sound a bit excessive to me though; .d usually means because multiple packages need to ship configuration
<keescook> Keybuk: right.  for example /proc/sys/kernel/maps_protection (now in gutsy)
<pitti> keescook: ah, such as enabling /tmp race protection and such?
<BenC> I have to step out for 15, but maybe udev could handle the modular sysctl stuff?
<cjwatson> BenC: right, things that we're setting in the default distro anyway in /etc/sysctl.conf at the moment
<keescook> pitti: right, symlink races, and I can imagine there may be others
<cjwatson> since we ship them that way by default, it's arguable that our kernel should just default that way
<Keybuk> BenC: udev can set sysctls quite easily, since it knows when modules are added
<BenC> cjwatson: we can do that, yes
<kylem> are you proposing applying these from initramfs?
<iwj> My autopkgtest-xenlvm needs to mess with sysctl.
<BenC> Keybuk: right, my thoughts exactly
<pitti> keescook: hmm, but sysctl.conf is a conffile, so why is that so painful?
<iwj> That is, maybe people will hate it for doing so but it does anyway :-).
<cjwatson> at present, we appear to set kernel.printk, kernel.maps_protect, and some dev.mac_hid stuff on powerpc
<cjwatson> (the latter of which is mostly superseded by mouseemu now)
<keescook> pitti: well, I just worry about people having to do a sysctl.conf merge on each upgrade
<Keybuk> cjwatson: and all of net.ipv4.conf.*
<iwj> I think a .d is the right answer.
<keescook> and I'd hate to see people ignore the update and leave themselves open
<cjwatson> keescook: even worse, it's a conffile with arch-specific contents
<kylem> kees, why would this change more than once a stable release
<mdz_> cjwatson: eewww
<kylem> surely procps isn't going to have /that/ many bugs. :P
<cjwatson> fortunately work in feisty means that can probably go away in the future, but still
<keescook> kylem: it shouldn't, which is why I put it in currently.  I just thought I'd ask here where everyone can give me some ideas.  :)
<pitti> keescook: hm, but in general that's true for every changed conffile; do you really think that so many people will care?
* kylem thinks sysctl.d is sensible.
<cjwatson> another problem with sysctl.conf or sysctl.d is that if sysctls go away and you don't merge conffile changes you get cryptic warnings on boot which look scary but aren't
<pitti> anyway, I agree that setting those we care about by default in the kernel is a bit cleaner
<cjwatson> what does sysctl.d buy us over sysctl.conf?
<iwj> cjwatson: It lets my package not have to invent an init.d script which doesn't work properly because it runs too early.
<mdz_> if we're changing the default, it should be changed in the kernel
<Keybuk> cjwatson: takes away merge headaches
<keescook> I'd probably like to see two things:  1) sysctl.d (to avoid merge pain)  2) sysctl not die when it tries to set a non-existing file
<mdz_> and so no sysctl.conf modification should be required to stick with the default
<iwj> And keescook's (2) too.
<cjwatson> it sounds like there are a couple of different cases, one set of which (e.g. iwj's) are addressed by sysctl.d and others of which (the stuff procps is shipping by default) should be addressed by kernel patches
<keescook> mdz_: that's was my thinking originally.  it's a 1 line patch to the kernel, and if people don't like it for some reason, they should _disable_ it with procps.
<pitti> keescook: then it should at least cry out very loudly, otherwise you could miss important things
<cjwatson> so I see no reason why we can't do both
<pitti> keescook: I agree to 'disable manually'
<keescook> pitti: right, it already cries loudly, but just bombs out
<iwj> cjwatson: both> Mmm, perhaps.
<mdz_> keescook: that's a bug
<cjwatson> I never knew it bombed out; I thought it was just a warning
<cjwatson> I agree that's a bug
<pitti> keescook: at least initially we probably have to carry the entire patch and not just the 'flip it on' bit, right?
<keescook> mdz_, cjwatson: perhaps I am wrong; I will double check and open a bug if needed
<iwj> We could give it a new flag --don't-mind-unknown-ctls.
<cjwatson> it doesn't currently document that it minds
<cjwatson> oh
<cjwatson>        -e     Use this option to ignore errors about unknown keys.
<mdz_> we could add a --don't-be-stupid
<iwj> I mean, to even suppress the warning.
<keescook> pitti: I have been trying to get stuff into mainline.  the maps protection is in 2.6.22, so we only need to carry the "on by default" patch (1 line)
<iwj> cjwatson: Oh :-).
<Keybuk> sysctl --i-agree-that-this-is-not-a-benchma-oh-wait
<fabbione> ROFL
<shawarma> :)
<mdz_> cjwatson: that should be the default when reading from a file
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: "acknowledge".  Have to weed out the lousy spelers.
<cjwatson> keescook: from the source, I think you are mistaken that it bombs out
<cjwatson> it does exit non-zero, but it keeps going round the loop anyway
<keescook> If I can get enough time, I hope to have ASLR taken upstream, but applied in our kernel (/me begs BenC)
<pitti> keescook: ah, that one, yes; I thought we would finally include the /tmp race protection and so
<keescook> cjwatson: okay, sorry for that bit.  ignore my (2) above.  :)
<iwj> /tmp race protection> What, the thing where creating without O_EXCL in sticky dirs fails ?
<keescook> pitti: yup, I imagine many things
<iwj> Or something else ?
<mdz_> keescook: I think that modifying /etc/sysctl.conf is rare enough, and the consequences of the merge are trivial enough, that we don't need to worry about it
<keescook> iwj: can't follow symlinks not owned by you in a +t dir
<pitti> iwj: following a symlink in world-writable directories fails if it isn't owned by you
<iwj> symlink> Ah, helps a lot.
<keescook> mdz_: meaning these things should stay in procps?
<pitti> simple 10-line patch and very effective
<mdz_> keescook: I don't see a problem
<keescook> mdz_: okay.
<mdz_> keescook: it's not as if something breaks if they miss the merge
<iwj> ln -s /somewhere /tmp/.X11-unix ...
<iwj> Still, we can say "use mount --bind".
<keescook> mdz_: it doesn't break, but it leaves them "open" to this minor issue
<mdz_> keescook: ...which they're already open to and have been for 30 years :-)
<pitti> iwj: lots of daemons and scripts still use things like /tmp/$$ or even static names, right
<keescook> well, it hasn't mattered in 29 of those 30 years because everything was statically located in memory.  :)
<Keybuk> iwj: don't bind-mount anything /ish to /tmp :p
<keescook> so, since stack/heap ASLR, this is an issue.  once text ASLR is done, the maps file becomes very valuable
<Keybuk> the guy who filed *that* bug is still stalking me
<mdz_> keescook: but one is still no worse off than one has been in the paste
<mdz_> past
<mdz_> the worst that happens is that one misses out on a new bit of sticky gooey protective measure
<keescook> anyway, sounds like the norm is to put kernel defaults into procps, which is the answer I was looking for.  :)  right, they're no worse off.
<mdz_> next?
<Keybuk> Where do Ubuntu's non-stock ulimits come from? (kees)
<Keybuk> PAM
<Keybuk> she's an air-hostess who does UNIX security work in her spare time
<keescook> so, pam has compiled defaults?
<Keybuk> yeah
<mdz_> Keybuk: and keeps things from sticking to the skillet
<cjwatson> it does, but they don't match those keescook cites
<Keybuk> I think everything is unlimited
<Keybuk> bar a few things
<cjwatson> nproc is unlimited in pam_limits, for instance
<pitti> right, a longstanding bug
<cjwatson> whereas keescook says it's 2048
<Keybuk> I think kees is advocating a limit, not advocating its removal?
<cjwatson> oh, hang on, you mean it should be 2048
<keescook> well, my list is from what the kernel hands init
<mdz_> there's a very, very old bug about this
<pitti> $ ulimit -u
<pitti> unlimited
<pitti> right, 'provide sane default ulimits' or so
<cjwatson> mdz_: bug#?
<mdz_> looking
<keescook> and I've seen a few places where don't want unlimited signals, locked memory, or user process.  I need to study the POSIX msg queue more
<cjwatson> 14505?
<mdz_> it's something like "ZOMG UBUNTU VULNERABLE TO SHELL SCRIPT FORK BOMB"
* Keybuk checks what limits init gets
<Mithrandir> keescook: locked memory locked to 32kb sounds a bit on the slim side, though
<mdz_> cjwatson: that's the one
<keescook> Mithrandir: according to kernel comments, this is how much gnupg wants.  *shrug*
<Mithrandir> keescook: hm, ok.
* agoliveira wonders what the heck is an "air-hostess". Flight attendent?
<fabbione> we should be careful not to slam them too much down
<keescook> but unlimited is clearly wrong it introduces yet another local DoS
<cjwatson> keescook: feel free to poke pam (note that it uses a debian/patches-applied/ patch scheme)
<cjwatson> agoliveira: yes
<mdz_> Mithrandir: it's enough for a password, which is as much as any typical application wants
<keescook> fabbione: are you aware of other things that lock mem?  I've been told that the binary video drivers need it, but I don't understand why/where
<mdz_> would make a good soft limit at least
<Keybuk> core 0, prio 0, sigpending 3072, memlock 32, nofile 1024, msgqueue 819200, rtprio 0, nproc 3072
<Keybuk> (everything else unlimited)
<fabbione> keescook: no, and since we don't have good samples, that's why i suggest to trigger them down slowly to see where we break
<iwj__> Excuse me, I didn't see anything after    21:21 <Keybuk> the guy who filed *that* bug is still stalking me
<Mithrandir> keescook: binary video drivers run as root anyway, I'd think?  Or do they mean GL memory is locked?
<mdz_> keescook: seems like a good thing to switch early in the release cycle and see what breaks
<cjwatson> iwj__: I'll /msg you the rest
<iwj__> I seem to be having some local dsl difficulty.
<kylem> keescook, if you use binary video drivers, security isn't one of your concerns...
<mdz_> keescook: that's the best way to chase out the unexpected cases
<keescook> Mithrandir: yeah, I'm not sure, I go poke at it with nvidia
<mdz_> keescook: though a grep for mlock over the archive sources wouldn't hurt either
<keescook> kylem: very good point.  :)
<pitti> kylem: no, but if we have too restrictive defualt limits, their double-buffering etc. might break
<kylem> pitti, seriously though, nvidia.ko has a "get root" ioctl...
* BenC is back
<pitti> kylem: yeah, and samsung printer drivers make your openoffice suid root
<keescook> mdz_: so we maintain a set of unpack sources in the DC, or do I need to do a big step/unpack loop?
<pitti> kylem: (no joke)
<Mithrandir> pitti: that's the best thing ever.
<kylem> pitti, ...
<mdz_> keescook: we don't, afaik
* keescook goes to buy some more drives
* mdz_ mumbles about how it isn't even possible to get at unpacked sources in a standard way these days
<fabbione> keescook: i have the space to do that here locally
<cjwatson> kylem: bug 110724
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 110724 in openoffice.org "OpenOffice runs as root for all users" [Undecided,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110724
<mdz_> keescook: do yourself a favour and do it on a DC machine
<keescook> and that bug has _duplicates_
<keescook> fabbione: do I have access to "here"?
<fabbione> keescook: i can provide that...
<keescook> okay, cool
<pitti> keescook: I still have some scripts to grep the sources of the entire archive
<fabbione> keescook: or use the DC.. up to you.. just let me know
<keescook> anyway, what do people think of the 2048 user process limit?
<mdz_> pitti: that should go in a package somewhere
<fabbione> keescook: that will break my builds
<iwj__> ~~
<mdz_> keescook: I think it's perfectly reasonable
<iwj> Excuse me.
<keescook> yeah, i'll raise it for myself, but for an ubuntu default, it seemed better than unlimited.  :)
<mdz_> fabbione: make -j should fail gracefully; if it doesn't, it should be fixed
<pitti> mdz_: well, it only ever makes sense on the DC, and the scripts currently need hand-editing, but I'll look at generalizing them and maybe put them into devscripts or so
<mdz_> not even fail gracefully. cope, rather
<Keybuk> keescook: the default is 3072, why lower it?
<fabbione> mdz_: ehhehe :)
<keescook> Keybuk: your init values differ from mine a bit.  we'll compare notes later?
<pitti> keescook: fabbione's 'make -j 300' is not what I really call 'reasonable default for normal users' anyway :)
<Keybuk> keescook: I'm just reading from gdb before upstart's main loop <g>
<pitti> Keybuk: default is unlimited for nproc
<keescook> neither is my use of LVM.  :)
<fabbione> pitti: nah.. that's history.. i am at an average of -l 4096
<fabbione> -j even
<keescook> Keybuk: ah, I booted with init=/bin/bash and did "ulimit -a"  :P
<cjwatson> fabbione: I think you can raise your ulimits
<Keybuk> keescook: what's the reason for wanting to apply limits anyway?
<Keybuk> for a single-person machine, surely unlimited *is* the right default?
<fabbione> cjwatson: yeah i guess i will have to
<keescook> mostly local DoSs
<Keybuk> why do we want to place limits on what an Ubuntu user can do
<keescook> Keybuk: ^^
<pitti> Keybuk: making processes which are gone wild not block the entire system
<Keybuk> they'll have the same ffect
<keescook> the aim is slightly more towards safer server installs
<Keybuk> process goes wild => machine can't spawn new process to fix it
<Keybuk> process goes wild and hits limit => still can't spawn new process
<mdz_> Keybuk: bulletproof shoes
<keescook> and these were a few things that stood out when comparing ubuntu defaults to other distros
<pitti> Keybuk: they can, on a new console
<Keybuk> mdz: I prefer paper bullets
<pitti> Keybuk: AFAIK, nproc is per console, isn't it?
<Keybuk> pitti: and how do we explain "new console" to non-server users?
<mdz_> pitti: I don't think so
<Keybuk> pitti: no
<Keybuk> nproc is global
<cjwatson> setrlimit(2) says it's per-uid
<keescook> anyway, sounds like "yes, hunt and fix, culprit is PAM".
<Keybuk> (remember, no root password, guys!)
<pitti> ah, 'k; sorry for misremembering then
<Keybuk> no logging in as root and killing the run-away process
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I think they're screwed either way
<Keybuk> cjwatson: exactly, so why limit users from doing legitimate things with no gain here?
<cjwatson> I'm not sure that we gain a whole lot by taking away the lubricant
<cjwatson> er, I mean I'm not sure that we lose a whole lot
<cjwatson> Keybuk: legitimate users who need that can raise the limit, no?
<keescook> I think it marginally helps multiuser systems.
<Keybuk> does nproc cover processes or processes *and* threads?
<pitti> Keybuk: anyway, right now the bash fork bomb instantly freezes the entire system; it can only get better
<keescook> Keybuk: unsure about threads
<cjwatson> I think there are much fewer of them, and that they're much more knowledgeable, than those who get screwed by accidental or malicious forkbombs
<Keybuk> cjwatson: will we provide a gui to increase the limit?
<pitti> gvim limits.conf (SCNR)
<Keybuk> (I'm firmly a "0, 1 or unlimited" kinda man, sorry)
<cjwatson> do you think that users who need several thousand concurrent processes require a gui?
<bryyce> heh
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I think that nprocs includes threads
<pitti> well, '1' is not that bad either; worked fine in DoS :)
<cjwatson> even so
<pitti> erm, DOS
<cjwatson> (yes, threads too)
<mdz_> we do have the option of setting different defaults for server and desktop
<mdz_> and more restrictive limits do make sense for servers
<fabbione> that would be more sensible
<Keybuk> yeah, I agree that this is right for server
<Keybuk> just not desktop
<Keybuk> desktops are by definition hundreds of processes with lots of threads each
<keescook> Keybuk: you're speaking specifically about nproc?
<pitti> but if we use sysctl.conf, we have to agree to a common limit
<cjwatson> $ ps x | wc -l
<cjwatson> 110
<cjwatson> this is a factor of at least 20 or so we're talking about?
<keescook> pitti: I think they'd go in /etc/security/limits.conf in the end
<cjwatson> I'm not convinced, I'm afraid
<Keybuk> cjwatson: i just don't see the gain in changing it
<mdz_> anything less than the maximum pid is an improvement
<Keybuk> you're still screwed by a fork bomb
<Keybuk> so what's the difference?
<mdz_> Keybuk: not on a server
<mdz_> where there are non-admin users
<pitti> for me the gain is that right now you are definitively screwed on a fork bomb; with a limit you at least have a chance to recover
<keescook> pitti: +1
<cjwatson> at least accidental forkbombs may well stop and give you your system back once they hit the limit
<Keybuk> cjwatson: you forgot the "m"
<Keybuk> ps won't show threads by default these days
<mdz_> Keybuk: I don't think nproc applies to threads anyway
<cjwatson> a forkbomb that chews through your pid space will likely cause the OOM killer to kick in and then bits of your desktop start to disappear
<cjwatson> Keybuk: given that most of my processes are non-threaded terminals, that's specious
<Keybuk> cjwatson: more likely the fork bomb will keep pushing against the limit, and you have to reboot
<Lure> mdz_: it does (according to setrlimit(2) manpage)
<mdz_> Lure: is that pre- or post-NPTL?
<Keybuk> nproc is counted for each clone(), no?
<mdz_> date on the man page is 2005
<cjwatson> I have 110 processes and 124 threads
<mdz_> keescook: this is becoming a discussion which needs to be had on the mailing list
<mdz_> we need to move on
<keescook> mdz_: sure thing.  sounds like only nproc is contentious
<mdz_> pitti: release update?
<pitti> mdz_: it's out :)
<mdz_> pitti: wow! way ahead of schedule
<cjwatson> pitti: congratulations on Ubuntu 7.10, then
<pitti> went pretty smooth, although I had to learn and struggle a lot with learning the engineering bits
<mdz_> we were planning on october
<agoliveira> :-D
<mdz_> pitti: you should have a chat with heno about release-relevant bug tracking
<pitti> mdz_: right, that's on the list already
<pitti> so far we have about 5 or 6 for tribe-2
<pitti> and a few for later versions
* iwj double-checks the network connection.
<Keybuk> fabbione: how is the hardware certification proceeding?
<fabbione> Keybuk: started as scheduled.. no bugs so far but it's a bit early to say
<fabbione> we are going to skip sparc for this round
<fabbione> i found a last minute blocker
<fabbione> and agreed with pitti to not release it
<fabbione> but we have fixes on the way already
<fabbione> that's about it from radio hardware-cert
<fabbione> :)
<mdz_> I think it would be good to publicize the test results from tribe-1 sometime before tribe-2
<mdz_> on -devel or -devel-announce
<mdz__> I just got randomly dropped from the wireless network
<mdz__> I think it would be good to publicize the test results from tribe-1 sometime before tribe-2 on -devel or -devel-announce
<cjwatson> merges: we have 30 outstanding, which need to be completed by 21st June
<cjwatson> that's excellent progress for this point in the cycle, but we just need to get through the last few
<fabbione> mdz_: did someboby pasted to you?
<mdz_> fabbione: no
<heno> we need to add a feature to the USO tracker to make such reporting efficient
<heno> Should be fairly easy to do
<heno> *ISO tracker
<bryyce> cjwatson: should the Updated Merges also be completed by the 21st?
<pitti> bryyce: there will constantly be new ones
<mdz_> bryyce: those are packages which have been updated since they were merged
<pitti> those should be picked with some common sense applied, I think
<bryyce> ok
<mdz_> we can't be exactly up to date at the deadline, but we should be close enough
<cjwatson> bryyce: no
<mdz_> everything must be merged at least once
<Keybuk> ish
<Keybuk> those are packages which have been *uploaded* since the start of the release cycle
<Keybuk> they may have never been merged
<Keybuk> check versions
* dholbach will try to keep an eye on universe/multiverse merges and make everybody aware of the deadline, although it generally looks quite good already
<cjwatson> right, I know grub is in that camp
<Keybuk> (it parses the changes file and looks at the intended distribution <g>)
<Keybuk> if the last change was for the current release, it goes in updated rather than new
<cjwatson> to clarify, we can still upload merges after the Debian import freeze, up to upstream version freeze; we just won't automatically sync every day or so
<cjwatson> (if that confused you, ask me out of band and I'll be happy to clarify)
<mdz_> speaking of grub, /me mumbles about bug 21412
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 21412 in grub "Default update-grub behaviour is not intuitive with respect to user modifications" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/21412
<mdz_> that bug needs to die.  who will speak for the trees?
* fabbione checks
<Keybuk> (and I tend to turn a switch at DIF to change the word from "Outstanding" to "New" :p)
<mdz_> it's bitten countless users and sysadmins, and now it's bitten Dell as well
<mdz_> heno: let us make gutsy the release where it finally dies
<Keybuk> is that the "you need to edit the comments?" bug
<cjwatson> please check with me about installer implications; it's fiddly :-/
* iwj waits for the bug to load.
<mdz_> Keybuk: yes
* heno makes a note
<mdz_> cjwatson: might be a good idea to note that in the bug itself
<cjwatson> it is a bug that requires careful design to make sure the result isn't just as bad
<mdz_> in case the bug fairy comes by to fix it and wasn't in this meeting
<mdz_> speaking of meetings, is there any other business for this one?
<cjwatson> done
<ogra> :)
<mdz_> going once
<mdz_> twice
<mdz_> thrice...gone.  good night and good day and back to the battlefield with ye
<bryyce> for those curious, here's some photos of current bulletproof-x status:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/BulletProofX/
<bryyce> night!
<keescook> thanks everyone!
<mdz_> thanks, everyone
<asac> thanks!
<Mithrandir> that leaves me with a whooping three minutes until next meeting. :-P
<bdmurray> bye!
<evand> thanks
<dholbach> thanks
<iwj> Goodnight all.  Hmm, I should sleep on that bug.
* agoliveira is jumping to the next meeting!
<fabbione> night all
<ogra> thanks :)
<mathiaz> thanks. bye.
<mvo> goodnight
<pitti> thanks all
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Chicago: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 12 Jun 10:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 07:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 12:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 14:00: Technical Board
<cjwatson> bryyce: nice start!
<bryyce> thanks :-)
<pitti> bryyce: cool
* evand wonders where he can find the iwantapony driver
<pitti> that, and friendly-recovery as yet another fallback will make it much better
<cjwatson> bryyce: I have various minor quibbles but it sounds like you want to get further before taking those, and I probably shouldn't distract you with irrelevant bits :)
<bryyce> yeah I am going to hammer on it more
<bryyce> btw, I'm thinking the right place for this to live is as a patch on gdm - does that sound reasonable?
<pitti> bryyce: hm, either that or the place which currently produces those broken blue screens?
<pitti> bryyce: with gdm you'd have to do it for all dms
<pitti> like kdm and the XFCE one at least
<bryyce> I'm guessing the blue screens are generated by xorg-server itself
<pitti> right, Xorg should notice if it couldn't start up
<bryyce> yeah, unfortunately this approach relies on a gdm hook that kdm doesn't have (haven't looked at xmms yet)
<pitti> xmms? :)
<bryyce> er
<bryyce> xfce ;-)
<pitti> autofingers
<bryyce> zactly
<pitti> bryyce: why is it significantly easier to hack this into gdm than into X?
<bryyce> I don't have strong feelings either way
<bryyce> I figured gdm since it hooks in via the gdm.conf file
<bryyce> however it isn't really gdm specific other than the hook
<bryyce> so putting it in xorg-server might make sense if/when we can also hook into kdm.  hmm
<pitti> bryyce: I figure eventually it can call kde-guidance on Kubuntu and such?
<bryyce> yup
<pitti> it could just check which is available and pick the first
<shawarma> Well, both zenity and displayconfig-gtk are not going to work all that well on a Kubuntu system anyway?
<pitti> and if nothing's there, just call dpkg-reconfigure -phigh xserver-xorg :)
<bryyce> shawarma: shouldn't matter
<shawarma> bryyce: right, just read the bit about kde-guidance..
<pitti> shawarma: right, but guidance should; after all, displayconfig-gtk was ported from KDE :)
<bryyce> we're not loading the window manager proper at all
<shawarma> pitti: Oh, really? I didn't know.
<bryyce> however, I do like the idea that the dialog used for configuring in failsafe is the same as when they're logged into whatever they normally use
<pitti> shawarma: yeah, it sometimes happens in this direction, too
<bryyce> since things will look the same, etc.
<pitti> bryyce: right, merely checking for which one is available will not be 100% right, but it's a fine start
<bryyce> yeah displayconfig-gtk and kde's displayconfig both use the guidance_backends package
<pitti> the latter was recenlty split out; yay no more code duplication :)
<bryyce> for now I'm just focusing on the gnome/ubuntu, to keep it simple.  I think it should be straightforward to adapt it to other window managers once the basics are proven
<pitti> right, it just needs to be kept in mind
<bryyce> most of the hard work is going to be in getting it to boot up reliably on any random piece of hardware
<bryyce> pitti, yup!  Unfortunately, presently installing guidance_backends pulls in a bunch of Qt libs too
<pitti> bryyce: how good does the 'no xorg.conf' mode work currently?
<bryyce> pitti, works great
<pitti> yuck @ qt libs
<pitti> I was planning to use that for restricted-manager
<bryyce> pitti, a lot of systems I've tested it on came up just fine
<pitti> cool, I gotta try that
<pitti> it'll give me the wrong resolution, but still
<bryyce> but when you want custom stuff - extra font paths, binary drivers, different keyboard layouts, etc. then obviously that's a problem
<pitti> keyboard layout is the worst thing probably
<bryyce> however I understand xserver 1.3 will accept partial xorg.conf's, where you leave display/device/etc. empty and just specify stuff you wish to override
<pitti> but as long as you can drive the recovery with the mouse, its probably ok
<bryyce> but I haven't tested that out
<bryyce> xserver 1.4 is going to have input hotplug as well, so maybe many of these customizations will not be needed either
<Riddell> bryyce: that should be fixed no?
<pitti> Depends: libc6 (>= 2.5-5), libx11-6, libxext6, libxrandr2 (>= 2:1.2.0), libxrender1, libxss1, libxxf86vm1, python (>= 2.5), python-support (>= 0.3.4), python (<< 2.6)
<pitti> looks fine to me
<pitti> (guidance-backends)
<bryyce> ok hmm
<Riddell> it's a recent fix
<cjwatson> partial xorg.conf - it pretty much has to, that's going to be the common case :)
<bryyce> ahh, I must have grabbed before that
<pitti> Riddell: btw, would you mind if I put my spacing fix there?
<bryyce> cjwatson: yup
<pitti> Riddell: it changes the tabs/spacing to be like the one dexconf writes
<Riddell> pitti: what does that do?
<Riddell> pitti: hmm, ask _Sime_ first, he's the upstream
<pitti> but just that, no functional changes
<pitti> Riddell: it's probably not appropriate for upstream, since that's a distro-level custom
<pitti> but sure, I'll ping him
<cjwatson> so if I have xserver 1.3 installed, can I just delete the Device, Monitor, and Screen sections and let it try to guess?
<Riddell> pitti: actually ignore me, we discussed that patch before in #k-d and it's fine to apply
<pitti> Riddell: cool, then I'll do that and throw out the copy from r-m
<bryyce> cjwatson: or delete their contents
<bryyce> cjwatson: ah yeah it looks like you can delete the contents entirely
<bryyce> still need the ServerLayout section though
<bryyce> Section "ServerLayout"
<bryyce>   Identifier "Default Layout"
<bryyce>   InputDevice "Generic Keyboard"
<bryyce>   InputDevice "Configured Mouse"
<bryyce> EndSection
<cjwatson> but delete the Screen line from ServerLayout?
<bryyce> yup
<pitti> good night everyone
<bryyce> cya
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-08
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Jun 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 20 Jun 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<DarkSun88> Hi all
<effraie> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 12 Jun 17:00: Kernel Team | 13 Jun 14:00: Edubuntu | 14 Jun 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 16 Jun 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 19 Jun 21:00: Technical Board | 20 Jun 22:00: Edubuntu
<clyde9> has anyone in this room tried gDesklets in Gusty-Gibbon
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-09
<Raevn> Ponigru:
<Raevn> Thank you; Thank you; Thank you
<Raevn> Thank you; Thank you; Thank you
<Raevn>                     Thank you;
<Raevn> Methinks you're the one with the great advice to rebuild the MBR to be able to boot to XP again. Reloading KUbuntu as 3rd boot. Had trouble discovering what the "device" parameter was but other commands helped.
<Raevn> Again, thanks!
<Raevn> Riishathra on request, if that is your custom. <snicker>
<coreymon77> hello?
<coreymon77> is anyone there?>
<Hobbsee> coreymon77: /topic
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-06-10
<DarkSun88> Hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-02
<emgent> @schedule rome
<emgent> ubot donw.. argh
<persia> ï»¿02 Jun 22:00 CETï»¿: EMEA membership meeting | 04 Jun 18ï»¿:00 CET: LoCo Council | 05ï»¿ Jun 0:00 CETï»¿ Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 22:00 CETï»¿: Security Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Jun 12:00 UTC: Bugs for Hugs Day | 02 Jun 20:00 UTC: EMEA membership meeting | 04 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Jun 12:00 UTC: Bugs for Hugs Day | 02 Jun 20:00 UTC: EMEA membership meeting | 03 Jun 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 04 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Jun 20:00 UTC: EMEA membership meeting | 03 Jun 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 04 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team
<Myrtti> @schedule Helsinki
<ubottu> Myrtti: Schedule for Europe/Helsinki: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 02 Jun 23:00: EMEA membership meeting | 04 Jun 00:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 09:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 19:00: LoCo Council | 05 Jun 00:00:  Server Team
 * Pici hugs a bug
<leoquant> @schedule Amsterdam
<ubottu> leoquant: Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 02 Jun 22:00: EMEA membership meeting | 03 Jun 23:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 08:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 18:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 23:00:  Server Team
<Seveas> ikonia, just a though: isn't there some nice stat on ubuntustats.org that you can link to, to quantify your contribution?
<Seveas> Pici, same for you
<Seveas> I'll leave a shout on your wikipage as well
<Pici> Seveas: Thanks, and good to see you online again. (even though I did see you last week)
<nixternal> @now
<ubottu> nixternal: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 02 2008, 16:04:21 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
<nixternal> @schedule
<ubottu> nixternal: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 02 Jun 20:00: EMEA membership meeting | 03 Jun 21:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 06:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00:  Server Team
<Seveas> glade88, heya
<glade88> hi..
<Seveas> I've read your wikipage, you should try and get some testimonials from forum staff and the wine team
<Seveas> 'cause right now your page is a bit too thin on contributions
<glade88> ok.. i shall try
<nijaba> @schedule paris
<ubottu> nijaba: Schedule for Europe/Paris: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 02 Jun 22:00: EMEA membership meeting | 03 Jun 23:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 08:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 18:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 23:00:  Server Team
<stgraber> nijaba: Hi, I just had a quick look at your wiki page, your contributions look really good. But I think it'd be worth giving more details and also speaking more about you and your experience of Ubuntu.
<stgraber> nijaba: some testimonials would be great too (shouldn't be a problem :))
<Myrtti> @schedule helsinki
<ubottu> Myrtti: Schedule for Europe/Helsinki: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 02 Jun 23:00: EMEA membership meeting | 04 Jun 00:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 09:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 19:00: LoCo Council | 05 Jun 00:00:  Server Team
<nijaba> stgraber: thanks, will update it a bit
<Seveas> ah, nijaba is sneaky and added himself last minute
<nijaba> Seveas: heh, I had been on the old council board since march :)
<Seveas> fair enough :)
<Seveas> but yeah, get a few more colleagues to write nice things on your page
<ke|p> hi Seveas :)
<Seveas> hey ke|p
<Seveas> this time we'll *definitely* reach your application ;)
<ke|p> hahaha yes
<ke|p> I hope nobody has to go today, jeje
<Seveas> well, we have 90 minutes for 11 candidates
<Seveas> of which 2 are instant -1's due to no preparation :)
<Seveas> (and no, those 2 aren't here yet, relax if you thought I meant you :p)
<ke|p> the other day there were too many candidates :)
<stgraber> that's what happens when the procedure is stuck for months :)
<Seveas> stgraber, yup
<Seveas> hey devfil
<devfil> hi to all
<devfil> :)
<ke|p> :)
<Seveas> I lost my irclogs this week, pity
<Seveas> devfil, were you a candidate last week as well?
<devfil> Seveas: yes
<stgraber> Seveas: I follow you on those two -1 (way not enough info provided) so the list gets a bit shorter :)
<Seveas> stgraber, :)
<Syntux> @schedule Amman
<ubottu> Syntux: Schedule for Asia/Amman: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 02 Jun 23:00: EMEA membership meeting | 04 Jun 00:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 09:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 19:00: LoCo Council | 05 Jun 00:00:  Server Team
<Seveas> devfil, ah, I see 2 new cheers on your wikipage, not bad
<Seveas> Need to dig the logs to see if that's all we thought was missing
<Seveas> devfil, or didn't we even reach your application last week?
<Seveas> logs seem not to mention it
<devfil> Seveas: you didn't even reach my application
<Seveas> that explains why I thought "why did we reject this, it looks good!"
<devfil> Seveas: :) thanks
<Seveas> stgraber, actually, I see a 3rd insant -1 for another reason :)
<Seveas> but err, we shouldn't be gossiping in public :)
<Myrtti> bad manners
<Myrtti> tut tut
<Myrtti> you're not getting your chocolate pudding for dessert tonight
<juliux> hey Seveas
<Seveas> Myrtti, well, then you're not getting approved tonight :p
<Seveas> hey juliux
<Myrtti> Seveas: pft.
<Myrtti> wouldn't shatter my world.
<juliux> Seveas: good to see you online again
<Myrtti> I've had worse disappointments ;-)
<juliux> \o/
<Seveas> Myrtti, "pft" is exactly the condescending answer that stament needed :)
<Seveas> juliux, :)
<Myrtti> there's a saying in Wikipedia that being an admin shouldn't be a big deal
<afflux> hi... I'm considerung to go for membership sooner or later. I (usually) do a lot of bug triaging. I also helped at the ubuntu booth in the german LinuxTag 2008 a week ago. Do you think this is sufficient, with some testimonials?
<juliux> afflux: i can give you details about my bank account;9
<Myrtti> lol
<Seveas> afflux, write a wikipage summarizing it and come to the pre-meeting next time (I'll be here a few hours in advance) for a review
<afflux> okay
<afflux> thanks
<juliux> afflux: ping me if you are going to the board;)
<Myrtti> time for procrastinating this process with doing actual work.
<Seveas> juliux, just add your testimonials to his page :)
<juliux> Seveas: i will do that anyway;)
<Syntux> juliux, if some people want to propose for establishing Ubuntu-Arabic team, should they propose it to the Community Council or EMEA LoCo council ?
<juliux> Seveas: but i will see how you broil afflux ;)
<Seveas> Syntux, neither
<Seveas> Syntux, the emea membership board does memberships
<Syntux> Seveas, to Microsoft then?
<Pici> afflux: If you arent sure if you want to apply or not, try watching over one of these membership meetings, it gives you a good idea of whats expected
<Seveas> the loco council (note the absence of emea in that name) does locoteams
<Seveas> Syntux, heh ;)
<afflux> Pici: will do that
<Syntux> Seveas, :-)
<juliux> Syntux: come tot he loco council
<juliux> Syntux: but give us sometime;)
<juliux> the queue of issues is long
<Syntux> juliux, Ok then I'll remove it from the CC and add it to the LCC.
<Seveas> juliux, you're LCC?
<juliux> Syntux: if we think we can't handle it we will give it back to the cc;)
<juliux> Seveas: yes
<Seveas> ah, nice
<nijaba> stgraber: I've updated my page a bit, let me know what you think.
<juliux> Seveas: see https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-lococouncil
<Syntux> juliux, for the sake of time saving, would you please check the /talk of it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda/talk this should give a clear idea if I should propose it to LCC or CC.
<Syntux> Seveas, any comment on my wiki? or you don't comment here?
<Seveas> Syntux, I don't see you on the list for today :)
<juliux> Syntux: mom
<Syntux> Seveas, and probably you wont ever see me on the list :-)
<juliux> Syntux: i think we can handle it on the LCC
<Seveas> Syntux, hm?
<Syntux> juliux, lovely, danke :-)
<juliux> Syntux: you are welcome
<Syntux> Seveas, I'm invisible.
<Seveas> Syntux, can you fly too? ^_^
<Syntux> Seveas, been in two out of body experience.
<Seveas> for your amusement until the meeting:
<Seveas> http://www.spokenring.com/numa-numa-english.php
<devfil> Volans: hi!
<Seveas> hey Volans
<Volans> Hi all, hi devfil :)
<Syntux> Seveas, Ok added myself although I can predict that you wont reach my application today.
<Seveas> Syntux, way too late for adding -- please remove
<Seveas> it's half an hour before the meeting, you're supposed to give us enough time to read the page and prepare :)
<Syntux> owii
<Syntux> can't I keep it to reserve the first seat for the next meeting?
<Seveas> hehe
<Syntux> you know, sitting on the first seat in a bus doesn't mean you will arrive first.
<Seveas> we'll just decline you again
<Seveas> :P
<ompaul> looks like ikiona is in work
<ompaul> ikonia, even
<Seeker`> could he not keep himself on the list with a note saying "not this week"?
<Seeker`> ompaul: when isn't he?
<ompaul> hehe
<Seveas> ikonia told me he'd be there
<Syntux> Seveas, yeah I know it's personal
<Syntux> Seveas, because I can fly ;)
<Seeker`> Syntux: if you are sitting on the front seat of the bus, and you aren't the first one to arrive (other than the driver), then the driver is seriously doin git wrong
<Seveas> Syntux, yes, when you teach me how to do that, I'll approve you :)
<Seveas> Seeker`, busdrivers here in NL are on strike
<Seveas> so sitting in the front seat gets you f*ing nowhere :)
<Schwitzd> Hi all!
<Syntux> Seveas, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience
<Seeker`> Seveas: Still, if anyone sitting behind you on the bus gets there first, there is still something seriously wrong with the way the bus is travelling
<Syntux> Seveas, you have to dislocate your shoulder and then you have to go to an open repair surgery, once you are done they have to give you pethidine and then you can fly.
<ompaul> Seeker`, it could be reversing into the parking lot
<Seeker`> when you are in the car park, I count that as arrived
<Syntux> true
<Seveas> Syntux, I thought the knack was falling and missing the ground
<juliux> hey ompaul
<Seveas> And those of you who did not get that reference don't deserve to be ubuntu members :p
<ompaul> juliux, hi there
<Syntux> Seveas, hehe
<Seveas> come on candidates, what did that refer to?
<Seveas> first one to get it right gets bonus points :)
<ScottK> That one it quite easy.  I even used it at UDS.
<Myrtti> HHGTG
<Seveas> Myrtti gets a cookie!
<Volans> Seveas: how about the procedure? I have only to do a brief presentation linking my wiki page?
<Seveas> noe she needs to learn how to spell hhgttg :)
<Seveas> Volans, a 3-line intro should do
<Myrtti> Seveas: sorry, was typing LaTeX
<Myrtti> now where do I have that threeliner
<Seveas> you should still have it from last week
<Syntux> Seveas, seriously check my wiki and tell me if I have to keep it for the next week or I should forgot about the whole thingy and go get donuts
<Myrtti> yeah, I do
<Seveas> donuts is a good idea anyway
<Seveas> bring me two
<Myrtti> I remember dozing off and saving it just in case I fall asleep and miss my call
<Seveas> Syntux, for the record: I've seen you around before and from the mails from matthew it's become clear to me that you deserve a +1
 * ompaul sends Seveas a towel
<Seveas> it just needs to be documented properly :)
<Seveas> ompaul, soak it in some nutrients will ya
<Seveas> and BBQ sauce
<ompaul> k
<Syntux> Seveas, Ok, I will hire a graphic designer for my wiki
<Seveas> Syntux, haha
<Myrtti> Seveas: teriyaki or sweet and sour
<Syntux> Seeker`, if the chicken were in bus we wouldn't still thinking of which came first.
<Myrtti> Seveas: i've got some great lemon-ginger bbq sauce
<Seveas> Syntux, nice wikipage
<Seveas> +1 from me
<Syntux> Seveas, you love photos, I know it.
<Seveas> and flying
<Seveas> and donuts :)
<Syntux> Seveas, and btw the Americas team did nice thing, they deffer applications for messy wikis and gave them a chance to fix things instead of declining them
<Syntux> Which means, I'm the first today.
<Seveas> Syntux, that's probably fair-er indeed
<Seveas> I think we should do that too, if the candidate actually spent time on his wikipage in the first place
<Seveas> (we have 2 candidates this time with empty pages)
<juliux> \o/
<Syntux> Deal, I'm the first today then.
<Syntux> so relatively speaking I'm a king compared to them.
<Seveas> you're still last
<Seveas> we declined you last time, can't take that back :p
<Syntux> Seveas, you should have deferred it, it wasn't a declination as in "go to hell or get win95 cert and come back!" it was fix your messy wiki.
<Syntux> we need to agree on certain terminology.
<Myrtti> *yawn*
<Seveas> I think I can agree with "go to hell" :)
<Syntux> Seveas, in that bus?
<effie_jayx> @now
<ubottu> effie_jayx: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 02 2008, 19:45:31 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
<Syntux> @yesterday_as_in_tomorrow
<Syntux> sorry but been watching the season four of LOST and I lost the sense of time.
<Styxas> @schedule
<ubottu> Styxas: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 02 Jun 20:00: EMEA membership meeting | 03 Jun 21:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 06:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00:  Server Team
<Seveas> Syntux, check the agenda :)
<Syntux> Seveas, that's Styxas not Syntux
<Seveas> heh
<Seveas> wiki is slow :/
<juliux> is this a new news?
<Syntux> Seveas, I can recommend an ophthalmologist.
<Seveas> juliux, well, it's slower than usual today
<Syntux> The Council don't want to pay for speeding tickets anymore.
<juliux> Seveas: i need 2 days to get the 5-a-day branch;9
<Seveas> juliux, wiki, not code.lp.net :p0
<Syntux> black magic worked! dandy
<Seveas> Syntux, now where are my donuts?
<Myrtti> /me plans to bake oatmeal cookies for Pricey
<Syntux> Seveas, where are you from btw?
<Seveas> Syntux, golgafrincham
<Syntux> Seveas, we are neighbors then
<Seveas> Syntux, you're a telephone sanitizer?
<Syntux> Seveas, I'm a DialWord.
<juliux> Syntux: lol
<Syntux> :D
<Syntux> Seveas, anyway, are you sure you want Middle Eastern donuts?
<Seveas> Syntux, there are too many politically incorrect jokes I can make right now, it just wouldn't be funny
<Seveas> but yeah, I'd like a donut :)
<Syntux> Seveas, I'll laugh anyway.
<Syntux> Seveas, in jokes, it does not matter if it's politically correct or not.
<Seveas> depends on where and when you tell them
<Seveas> I wouldn't tell bad WWII jokes anywhere near a german I like
<Syntux> Seveas, then you don't want to know what I did with my jew friends at the airport LOL
<Seveas> Syntux, well, in pm maybe :(
<Seveas> err, that should be a :) not a :(
<Syntux> :-)
<forumsmatthew> Sorry, Morocco went to daylight savings time for the first time in 30 years and I am a bit confused...am I late?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: EMEA membership meeting | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 Jun 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 04 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, just in tie
<Seveas> time*
<forumsmatthew> woo hoo!
<Seveas> Hello member candidates! The EMEA board meeting will start soon. Please open a text-editor and prepare a 3-line intro about yourself which you can paste when it's your turn. Good luck everyone!
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, PriceChild, popey, stgraber - yell
<nealmcb> Seveas: good job on helping folks prepare!!
<forumsmatthew> aaaaaaaa
 * stgraber waves
<Syntux> Yes, he helped us in warming up.
<Syntux> and stretching.
<Seveas> we seem to be missing phanatic
<Pici> Syntux: I was *just* going to say the stretching bit.
<Myrtti> /me considers yet again to start an editor war to lighten up the atmosphere
<PriceChild> I'm here
<Seveas> markvandenborre unfortunately cannot make it, there were some personal issues getting in the way
 * nijaba waves
<Myrtti> oh dear, I was lost in the backlogland
<Seveas> nealmcb, thanks
<Seveas> anyone here who can send popey a non-maskable interrupt to the butt?
<Seveas> or phanatic for that matter
<Myrtti> /me gives Seveas her pink furry pen for poking
<Seveas> where's Hobbsee when we need her
<popey> moo
<Seveas> hey butt
 * popey thanks Daviey for the NMI
<Daviey> heh
<Seveas> :)
<lukehasnoname> how often are new members approved?
<Seveas> lukehasnoname, each regional board is supposed to meet weekly
<Seveas> we don't guarantee that that will happen, but the frequency should be much higher than when only the CC approved
<juliux> hi Daviey
<Daviey> juliux: hello sir!
<Seveas> popey, forumsmatthew, PriceChild, stgraber: I suggest we wait for phanatic until 22:10 and then just start
<stgraber> works for me
<forumsmatthew> Seveas, , that is fine with me
<Seveas> @now
<ubottu> Seveas: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 02 2008, 20:09:27 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
<Seveas> make that :13, give him a few minutes :)
<Seveas> ubottu and my clock are a bit out of sync
<ubottu> Seveas: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<stgraber> uhm, is ntp installed on this server ? :) it's :08
<Syntux> lol
<Seveas> stgraber, ask jussi01 :)
 * PriceChild blames jussi01 
<Myrtti> Blame Cana... ohnvm
<Seveas> Myrtti, you're looking for the americas board :)
<Seveas> brb, work phone
<Seveas> ok, nagios is silenced and phanatic is officially late.
<Seveas> Let's start
<popey> ok
<forumsmatthew> all set
<Seveas> We made a mistake last time
<Seveas> let me get some scrollback, hang on
<Seveas> <Syntux> Seveas, and btw the Americas team did nice thing, they deffer applications for messy wikis and gave them a chance to fix things instead of declining them
<Seveas> phanatic, !
<phanatic> good evening. sorry, i've just arrived at home...
<phanatic> i'll try to catch up
<forumsmatthew> glad you are here!
<forumsmatthew> we just started
<Seveas> I think the americas board did the right thing and retroactively put Syntux on top of the agenda to the position where he was
<Seveas> does anyone disagree with this way of handling "messy wikis"? It makes sense to me and the CC used to do this as well
<stgraber> makes sense
<Myrtti> hum
<forumsmatthew> I think it sounds like a very good idea and a kind way to deal with the issue
<Seveas> I want to set one condition: the candidate must have spent some time on the wikipage before the first meeting
<Seveas> so it should not look like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Shezif (one of the current candidates)
<forumsmatthew> agreed on that point
<stgraber> +1
<PriceChild> Sounds like a plan.
<nealmcb> You run the risk of folks not putting as much effort in the first time if there is no consequence - I'd suggest putting such apps at the bottom of the list - that's what happened to me :)
<nealmcb> not that that is much of a consequence....
<forumsmatthew> perhaps we can leave ourselves some leeway on that, and let it depend on how much obvious effort has been put into what is there
<Seveas> nealmcb, the preparation meetings I've done the last two weeks really show how much people have been prepared (or not)
<dsas> Is the list of applicants that big that it really matters?
<Syntux> and I suggest voting +1 for me, else you will have to face me every week on the top on your agenda.
<ompaul> forumsmatthew, you really should have it binary, and defer and then reject if not worked on
<Seveas> dsas, sometimes it is
<Daviey> with weekly meetings, it shouldn;t matter if at the top or bottom imo
<Seveas> dsas, but it's more "rejct vs defer"
<nealmcb> the biggest advantage of a top spot is predictability of when you'll come up
<Seveas> as in "no" or "looking good, but needs some work, come back next time"
<Seveas> so, let's start with the candidates. Syntux you're up!
<forumsmatthew> welcome back!
<Seveas> (If anyone objects against me chairing/being secretary, yell!)
<Syntux> Thanks :-)
<popey> deja vu
<popey> OBJECTION!
<forumsmatthew> Seveas, you are doing a good job, and I'm glad to have you do it
<Seveas> popey is now secretary
<popey> eek
<forumsmatthew> lol
<Syntux> Nothing has changed but more photos and certs - enjoy checking my wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Syntux
<popey> objection withdrawn
<Syntux> lol
<forumsmatthew> I have also spent a good amount of time with Syntux this week talking about his accomplishments, etc
<Seveas> I've seen the page already -- it shows more "evidence" than last time and makes me much more comfortable to give a +1
<Syntux> and of course, testimonials (they get free pizza for it)
<Seveas> and matthews mails helped as well
<Seveas> so, +1
<popey> heheh@free pizza
 * Syntux counting the pluses 
<forumsmatthew> +1
<popey> +1
<phanatic> +1
<Syntux> owi
<stgraber> +1
<Syntux> one more?
<Seveas> PriceChild, what's the verdict? Will we see him again next week or is he ok?
 * forumsmatthew nudges PriceChild 
<PriceChild> +1 :D
<forumsmatthew> mabrook!!
<popey> tease
<Syntux> :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
<PriceChild> Sorry, just being nosey looking through the photos
<Seveas> excellent
<Seveas> Volans, you're up now
<Seveas> paste your 3-liner please
<Syntux> Thanks guys :-)
<Volans> Hi all, I'm a 26 years old Italian Ubuntu enthusiast involved in the Ubuntu Italian Community since Dec 2005. (my wiki page here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Volans )
<Volans> Since May 2007 I'm an Admin of the official Ubuntu-it Forum (over 1.2M posts, 1.5K topics and 43K users) (my forum's profile page http://forum.ubuntu-it.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2488 )
<Volans> I have also developed a Firefox Extension (Ubuntu-it Menu) for a quick browse of Ubuntu-it community resources and also of some resources of other Ubuntu communities.
<Volans> This extension is also available as an official Ubuntu package (for Hardy) in the universe repository. (thanks to DktrKranz and asac )
<Volans> sorry 4 lines... :)
<totopalma> I would like to sponsor Volans for his membership, he is a great admin of the Ubuntu Italian Forum. His work on the Italian forum is invaluable.
<Schwitzd> Volans is a great forum admin, he is behind the new layout of the forum, a very active user
<forumsmatthew> I want to approve him just because of his picture on Launchpad
<Seveas> +1 based on long-time loco work and big contributions there
<DktrKranz> Volans is one of our heroic forum administrator, his activities are invaluable for our comminity
<warp10> A big +1 for Volans from me, he is a valuable help for the Italian community and I would be happy to see him as a member!
<forumsmatthew> +1, for better reasons, after reading his wiki and testimonials
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, neh, reminds me of popey too much
<phanatic> +1, very positive (and a lot of) testimonials
<Volans> my image on LP is made from another Ubuntu-it member, see my Italian wiki page: http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/Volans
<popey> Volans: what do you find yourself spending most time on in the forums?
<Volans> popey: what do you mean ? (sorry my english is far from perfect)
<popey> do you spend more time: moderating, asking questions, answering questions...?
<Seveas> popey, PriceChild: can you also please add your availability to the doodle for next meeting?
<Volans> ah ok, at first was answering questions as normal user, after as a moderator answering questions and moderating and doing bash script for people requesting it
<popey> :), what problems do you get on your forums?
<Volans> now as administrator I spent most of the time on the forum code, DB backup and as I can answering questions and moderating
<popey> e.g. do you get people suggesting "sudo rm -rf *" and the like?
<ke|p> xDD
<devfil> lol
<Schwitzd> ahaha
<PriceChild> Volans: What involvement do you have with the LoCo other than the forums/wiki?
<ompaul>  /me bans popey
<Volans> yes of course as all *nix like forums... but we moderate them adding big alerts
<Myrtti> I considered doing !danger
<Myrtti> :-D
<stgraber> popey: don't mention it, it'll be logged and spread all over the internet :) (and you will kill hundreds of systems)
<popey> meh
<popey> Volans: how many moderators/admins do you have?
<Volans> PriceChil:D italian loco?
<PriceChild> ke|p: devfil Schwitzd you laugh... but a couple of determined trolls can cause chaos on ubuntuforums.org in a few minutes with that :)
<Volans> popey: 4 admins and about 16 moderator
<popey> cool
<popey> sounds like you've built a nice community there.
<ke|p> sure
<popey> looks good, +1 from me
<devfil> PrinceChild: this is a serious problem
<stgraber> +1 here too
<PriceChild> I'm +1 too.
<Volans> yes is quite big community in respect of the total population speaking italian (about 70-100 M people)
<Seveas> 6 +'es it is
<Seveas> congratulations Volans!
<popey> well done Volans
<PriceChild> Volans: go find your part in the 'future' part of you wiki ;)
<Seveas> ikonia seems to be late
<devfil> Volans: you rock!
<Hattory> Volans: congrats ;)
<forumsmatthew> congratulations
<Volans> Thenks you very much, I'm embarassed... :D
<Seveas> ke|p, so you're up now -- we'll process ikonia (slice and dice) when he arrives
<ke|p> ok
<warp10> congrats Volans! ;)
<Schwitzd> Volans: :D :D
<ke|p> first of all, sorry about my english, it's a little poor
<forumsmatthew> no hay problema
<ke|p> my tree lines:
<ke|p> My name is Natacha Menjibar, I'm 30 years old. I'm admin of the ubuntu-es LoCo Team for 1 year and 2 months. I contributte to ubuntu setting-up the spanish documentation site http://doc.ubuntu-es.org, improving the Ubuntu Spanish Documentation and also in the cooperation between spanish speaking LoCo Teams, avoid duplicate works.
<ke|p> Also I want to focus my contributions in the user education of the importance of Free Software, not only on the technical aspects of Ubuntu. I think is very important that people know about the importance of the community, the Free Software, licenses, etc.
<RicardoPerez> ke|p: sure better than mine :)
<totopalma> vojtech_t, \o/
<totopalma> ops
<totopalma> Volans, \o/
<ke|p> My wiki page is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kelp
<effie_jayx> I am here to put in a word for Natasha Menjibar (ke|lp). She has been a ver active member of the spanish documentation team, she has been a true leader and has led to the reactivation of an idea that initially had gone astray. She was the motivating force behind doc.ubuntu-es.org and she is pushing forward towards integration of all spanish-speaking LoCo's.
<effie_jayx> i meant ke|p.
<PriceChild> FYI I'm going to use the 'Pricey' nick, lag issues this evening on this one.
<Seveas> what's the cupie project about?
<Seveas> my spanish isn't good enough to read the description
<ke|p> talks on irc about ubuntu and free software
<ke|p> the channel is #cupie
<popey> some good support you have there ke|p
<jpds> I would like to say that ke|p has been great fun to work with on ubuntu-es and I fully support her membership.
<popey> on the strength of that, +1 from me
<jpds> Seveas: it's kind of like #ubuntu-classroom for Spanish speakers
<Seveas> popey, yeah, that's impressed me as well
<popey> especially from people I recognise already
<Seveas> that and the wikipage gets my +1
<phanatic> +1 (very good testimonials)
<forumsmatthew> wow...I just read through the wiki and all the links. A big +1 from me
<stgraber> +1, wikipage + testimonials
<ke|p> :D
<Seveas> Pricey, what's your score?
<ikonia> hello
<ikonia> apologies for being late
<Seveas> hey ikonia
<ikonia> my laptop PSU is dead
<ikonia> I've had to drive back to the office to get a new one
<ikonia> spare one
<Pricey> +1 too, great testimonials, tis all good :)
<ikonia> apologies
<jpds> fecilidades ke|p!
<forumsmatthew> felicitaciones, ke|p
<Seveas> ke|p, congrats!
<Pricey> I've got no excuse for being slow any longer with the alt client...
<effie_jayx> ke|p, Felicitaciones, en hora buena... congrats
<RicardoPerez> ke|p: felicidades!
<popey> congrats ke|p, keep up the great work!
<Seveas> vojtech_t, you're up
<ke|p> thanks! thanks!
<ke|p> i love this project
<vojtech_t> My name is Vojtech Trefny, I'm 20 years old, living in Czech Republic (Prague), ubuntu user since Dapper.
<Volans> congratulations ke|p
<Seveas> ikonia, you're up after vojtech_t, please prepare your 3-line intro
<vojtech_t> I'm LoCo Team Contact for Czech team and majority of my contribution is adherent to our LoCo team - helping users at our forum (admin here), writing documentation, leading the team etc. I'm also active in launchpad answers (about 36k karma here).
<ikonia> thank you
<Pricey> uu a testimonial from the elusive jenda, can't have been easy finding him! :)
<vojtech_t> :-)
<Seveas> 36k karma on answers...
<phanatic> pretty impressive
<Seveas> vojtech_t, how many answers do you provide per week?
<vojtech_t> really don't know
<Seveas> phanatic, well, answer tracker does give generous karma
<Pricey> vojtech_t, do you have a direct link to your forums profile or is access closed for that?
<Seveas> I still don't know how generous
<popey> wiki page url?
<stgraber> vojtech_t: were you at last FOSSCamp/UDS ?
<phanatic> Seveas: yes, we've seen last week how tricky karma can be :)
<Seveas> vojtech_t, 10, 50, 100? just a rough estimate
<vojtech_t> My forum profile:  http://forum.ubuntu.cz/index.php?action=profile;u=1331
<popey> Seveas: you can get that from their lp page
<vojtech_t> Seveas: about 10-30
<phanatic> popey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VojtÄchTrefnÃ½
<popey> thanks
<Pricey> 1331... so close
<Seveas> Pricey, you will be shot for that :0
<Seveas> :p
<stgraber> Pricey: ...
<Pricey> Seveas, what did I do? :O
<popey> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/~vojtech.trefny is impressive
<forumsmatthew> agreed
<Daviey> vojtech_t: were you at this years UDS/Fosscamp?
<vojtech_t> No.
<Seveas> I'm going for +1 based on longevity of forum contributions, amount of answers and a testimonial from Jenga
<popey> based on the body of work in lp answers and testimonials, +1 from me
<forumsmatthew> +1
<phanatic> +1
<stgraber> very active in LP answers and great testimonials, +1 from me too
<Pricey> +1 too, keep it up!
<Seveas> that makes 6 +'es again
<Seveas> we have some excellent meat today
<Seveas> congrats vojtech_t!
<Seveas> ikonia, you're up
<Pricey> maybe we should be tough on the next one?
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!!
<vojtech_t> Thank you!
<Seveas> Pricey, yes, good idea
<forumsmatthew> Pricey, well he was late. :)
<ikonia> Hi, I'm Matt Darcy, I've been working with ubuntu for around 3 years now, but been in the open source arena on multiple projects for 10+ years now (only just worked out how long). I'm trying to diversify the projects I work with and Ubuntu is one that I believe I could benifit from so I feel it appropriate to formalise being a community member. I'm a keen user of the support resouces and attempt to provide as much information to all levels of us
<ikonia> (that looked like 3 lines when I typed it - it looks longer now - sorry)
<Pricey> ikonia, you were cut off at "all levels of u"
<Myrtti> ikonia: and you got cut off
<ikonia> fantastic
<ikonia> user where possible, but I'd like to now start to push forward contributions
<ikonia> to the ubuntu "product" in particular the server group where I feel I could add some
<Seveas> There's one problem with Ikonia's application
<ikonia> real value. I'm keen to participate beyond what I do now, and see being a community
<ikonia> member as the next logical step
<ikonia> </end>
<popey> +1
<Seveas> he's done amazing work in the IRC community (see testimonials from both Pricey and myself on the wikipage)
<Seveas> but it's really hard to quantify and qualify IRC contributions
<Seveas> so please trust me when I say: ikonia rocks!
<popey> (based on being aware of ikonias work)
<Myrtti> â¥
<Myrtti> ikonia does rock
<Seveas> 'cause you can't find proper evidence :)
<forumsmatthew> well, I'm a bit skeptical of the testimonials, but since his name is Matt, +1
<popey> ikonia: you've possibly sold yourself short
<Pici> The Ubuntu Ircstats page is no longer online, sadly.
<jpds> I would like to cheer ikonia, he has done some great work on IRC, and has some interesting ideas for the server team, I support his membership request :)
<Seveas> Does anyone know the status of the ubuntuircstats site?
<forumsmatthew> ;)
 * elky cheers for ikonia
<ikonia> kind words, appriciated
<Seveas> I lost all my irc logs this week in a harddrive crash :(
<Myrtti> recently he went through the whole bot factoid database (too bad we've been a tad busy with the bots)
<Myrtti> ikonia is wonderful.
<Daviey> Seveas: ubuntuircstats == he couldn't afford the hosting IIRC
<phanatic> +1. testimonials from two board members is enough for me :)
<Seeker`> ikonia: has been a great help as far as I can see
<Seeker`> he provides support to a lot of users in #ubuntu
<Seeker`> and has been very useful in pointing out trolls / problem users to thew ops team
<stgraber> +1. based on testimonials too
<Seveas> Pricey, I don't think it's a surprise we both go for +1 as well, is it?
<Pricey> +1 yep :)
<ikonia> I've only just seen the additional testamonials due to being off line, appriciated
<Seveas> excellent, welcome to the dark side ikonia!
<ikonia> thank you
<Seveas> congrats!
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!!
<Seveas> devfil, you're up
<Seeker`> congratumalations ikonia !
<devfil> Hi! My name is Devid Antonio Filoni. I'm a sixteen italian student. I'm an Ubuntu user from December 2006 with Ubuntu 6.10 "The Edgy Eft". I'm helping on italian translations of packages (using Rosetta) or website pages, I write for the Italian Newsletter (Italian UWN) and I do packages, patchs, etc... I will try to become MOTU to helping on packaging activities and I will also work to some packages in Debian (f
<devfil> or example, I want to work at wxwidgets2.8 package) to improve it and so to improve Ubuntu. I will continue to help on improving Ubuntu better as I can.
<Myrtti> grats ikonia
<totopalma> I would like to sponsor Devid for his membership, he is a very hard worker and a good MOTU contributor. I'm on charge of Ubuntu Italian Promoters and [WWW] Italian Newsletter is a project of the team. Devid does a great job as writer for the Newsletter. His work on the Italian Community is invaluable.
<DktrKranz> Recently, Devid started his journey in MOTU Land, he pushed excellent contributions into the archives (including some high-difficult packages such as wxwidgets2.8, which required three MOTUs to be sure everything was OK, and it was!). He is very active in early Intrepid development cycle, and his patches have been top-notch. He really deserves to be Ubuntu Member.
<popey> devfil: what stage are you at with MOTU?
<warp10> devfil has fixed a lot of small bugs and is a great addition to the Italian Loco Team. Definitely a big +1 from me!
<devfil> popey: I'm learning, I requested a mentor and I'm progressing
<popey> devfil: what method did you use to learn?
<Schwitzd> I would like to sponsor Devid for all the work he does for the Italian Newsletter. His work in the Italian Community is simply great!
<Seveas> DktrKranz, how recent is recently
<popey> i.e. how did you improve your knowledge?
<Hattory> I would like to sponsor Devid for his membership, he is a very hard worker and a good MOTU contributor. He's involved in Ubuntu Italian Translator Team too and he's doing a good job. His work on the Italian community is very very good!
<devfil> popey: asking or reading guides, or looking at similar bugs
<Volans> devfil is a great member of the italian developers team helping on packaging
<Pricey> devfil, your motu work seems to dominate your application, is there any reason you've come to us rather than going for the universe contributors route?
<Seveas> hmm, testimonials from both Hattory and DktrKranz on motuness. sounds promising :)
<DktrKranz> Seveas, he was active in hardy, but during last two months was very present and active :)
<popey> based on the testimonials here in channel, +1 from me.
<Seveas> devfil, what do you think you spend most time on? MOTU or the italian team?
<forumsmatthew> popey, I agree. the amount of people speaking on his behalf, and the kind words I am hearing are wonderful. +1
<devfil> Pricey: I don't know, I'm working and I will continue, I don't know where I will come
<devfil> Seveas: MOTU activities
<Seveas> devfil, now you're giving me a hard time
<Seveas> all the loco contributions make me say "+1"
<Seveas> but if you do more MOTU then loco, you should go to the motu council for approval
<Seveas> other board members, what's your take on this?
<nealmcb> I think you should approve him if you think the loco stuff is enough.  he'll have to get motu approval to do that specific thing, but shouldn't be held up if he's done enough already
<popey> i'm not tooooo fussed how someone gets their membership
<devfil> Seveas: I will, sure, but I want to be ready to motu council
<phanatic> i agree with nealmcb here
<forumsmatthew> you know, if we are able to determine a candidate is making a real and sustained contribution, I'm happy to approve
<Daviey> If you ignore the MOTU stuff, has he done enough for the LoCo to justify membership on it'sown grounds?
<Seeker`> For what it is worth, i think that if he has done enough to warrent membership based on loco stuff, then the fact that they also do motu stuff shouldn't be an issue
<popey> agreed Seeker`
<devfil> Seveas: I'm working hard in MOTU and in italian community
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, that's exactly the answer I've been looking for, thanks for being faster than my brain :)
<Seveas> +1
<phanatic> +1
<stgraber> I'd redirect to the MOTU council only when we can't evaluate one's contribution
<stgraber> in this case, it's a +1 from me
<forumsmatthew> stgraber, agreed
<DktrKranz> (and having root access on your machines is really a sustained contribution :P)
<Seveas> Pricey, your call
<nealmcb> DktrKranz: ?
<Myrtti> /me goes to raid the fridge and hopes her turn doesn't come while munching pb'n'jam bread in kitchen
<Pricey> I want to give a 0. I don't want to approve based on the -it work, and feel universe contributors is the way to get recognised from all the motu work you have done.
<Seveas> fair enough
<DktrKranz> nealmcb, when uploading packages on the archives, contributors can change your systems, so... they have root access :)
<Seveas> that's 5 +'es and one 0, devfil still becomes member :)
<Pricey> Regardless, congrats on membership devfil and I want to see you working towards joining the motu owned teams sharpish! :)
<Seveas> Congrats!
<forumsmatthew> congratulations~
<forumsmatthew> !
<devfil> thanks
<Volans> devfil rocks!!! :D
<devfil> Pricey: I will, this is a promise
<Seveas> Pici, you're up
<Pici> I was invited to join the Ubuntu IRC team in October of last year, and although its hectic at times, I enjoy doing it.
<popey> congrats devfil
<Pici> er
<Pici> Hi! My name is Benjamin Rubin (24), although most of you just know me as Pici.  I spend most of my Ubuntu community time doing IRC support.  I also do a bit of bug reporting (and confirming in #u+1) for the in-development releases.
<Hattory> devfil: good job ;)
<Pici> I was invited to join the Ubuntu IRC team in October of last year, and although its hectic at times, I enjoy doing it.
<Seeker`> Pici ftw!
<Pici> there we go.
<devfil> thanks to all, I'm very happy for this
<Pici> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BenjaminRubin
 * jpds cheers for Pici
<Seveas> For Pici i can pretty much repeat my little rant about the lack of irc stats
<totopalma> devfil, \o/ lol
<popey> uh-oh a testimonial from ompaul
 * Pricey prods elky
<Seveas> Pici rocks, gives support, is a good op and helps me code on ubotu
<Seveas> Pici, btw, I may have some good news about that soon-ish
 * ompaul blinks
<Pici> Seveas: When you werent deciding to change the entire framework, that is.
<ompaul> popey, ikonia had one too
<Myrtti> /me notices Pici is up and takes her hand from the pb jar
<Seveas> Pici, the code is still very usable :)
<popey> Pici: what's the status of the bantracker bot?
<ikonia> pici's provided me personally with help as well as the core channels I'm in
<Seveas> popey, hanging in the air since my resignation. But that really cannot be blamed on Pici
<Pici> popey: Its on hold due to the fact that Seveas was working on transitioning off of Supybot and onto a dbus based bot.
<Pici> popey: Much of the code is still viable though.
<popey> Seveas: /me was hoping for an answer from pici, not a board member
<popey> Pici: what do you do to deal with conflict on irc?
<Seveas> popey, sorry. Since I'm the one to blame for it hanging in the air I thought it was fair for me to answer that
<popey> ok
<forumsmatthew> stats don't feel as necessary to me when we have testimonies from people we really trust. I want to see some documentation, as much as possible, but it is not the only deciding factor
<forumsmatthew> these are very strong testimonies
<phanatic> i totally agree with forumsmatthew. based on that, +1
<forumsmatthew> +1
<stgraber> +1
<Pici> popey: We get a fair amount of people who are abusive, intentionally or not, and I try to be fair in light of the CoC when discussing their removal from the channel and their unbanning.
<elky> Pricey?
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, true, but just like karma, forum post count and all numbers: it helps to be able to "see" activity
<Pricey> +1
<forumsmatthew> Seveas, I totally agree...
<popey> Pici: does that cause conflict for you with other irc admins?
<forumsmatthew> but when we can't see, testimonies are invaluable
<Pricey> elky, another of your ops is up for membership if you have anything to say? (go on, be mean :D )
<Myrtti> we luvz Pici
<Myrtti> â¥
<elky> Pricey, oh. YAY PICI!
 * elky runs to the train
<Pici> popey: I don't let things get past friendly debates on issues.  Its not constructive to argue.
<popey> good answer
<popey> based on your testimonials and my own perception of you on irc, +1
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, in light of that: 2 prominent members of the irc op community are part of this council and only one forum admin (unless I'm mistaken). Do you feel that the forums are underrepresented?
<Pricey> I'm a forums mod if that counts?
<forumsmatthew> no
<Seveas> Pricey, why do I keep forgetting that?
<forumsmatthew> he's a double agent
<Seveas> seriously, someone needs to hammer that into me at some point...
<Pricey> you never remembered my birthday either :(
<popey> (because of his hair)
<Seeker`> Pricey: traitor! :P
<Seveas> anyway, Pici has collected 6 +'es
<Seveas> congrats!
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<Pici> Thanks! :)
<Daviey> \o/
<Seveas> Myrtti, you're up now
<popey> well done Pici , keep up the good work
<Myrtti> /me takes a deep breath and looks at the magical black guinea pig
<Seveas> irc people invasion today
<Myrtti> indeed
<Seveas> Myrtti, better paste your intro
<Seeker`> Myrtti: is great! She spends a lot of time helping in a lot of channels, and is quite often a (calm)voice of reason during heated arguments, and I suspect that the ops channel would be a much worse place without her
<Myrtti> just getting it from emacs, thanks.
<Myrtti> I'm Miia Ranta, 28 year old Finn. I've been using Ubuntu since 2005 and since then I've been working with the Finnish LoCo and it's co-operation with Finnish companies and FLUG, also active with the international community, mostly on IRC. I've done a bit of localisation and try to keep the wheels running where ever I'm active.
<Myrtti> My Wikipage is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Myrtti, and my puny Launchpad page is at https://launchpad.net/~myrtti
<popey> uh-oh she said emacs
<PriceChild> So now Pricey has died..
<Pici> woo, Myrtti!
<Myrtti> my team boss was, btw, approved as a member on last meeting
<forumsmatthew> Again, solid testimonials from people we trust...that emacs thing might be a problem, though
<Myrtti> anyway
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, yes
<Myrtti> forumsmatthew: I use nano and vim too
<Myrtti> and editra and gedit and mousepad and and
<jpds> Myrtti does great work on the IRC team - /me cheers
<Seveas> -1 for emacs, -2 for nano but +4 for vim
<Seveas> an even +1 as far as I'm concerned
<forumsmatthew> lol
<forumsmatthew> I think the black guinea pig pushed me over
<forumsmatthew> +1
<Seveas> (as far as 1 can be even)
<Myrtti> for comic relief I added the picture of the aforementioned magical black guinea pig to the wikipage)
<forumsmatthew> Seriously, those testimonials make a difference to me
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, yes, the same would go for me if there were a candidate from the forums with a testimonial from you
<ikonia> Myrtti: is another one who's inspired and provided help and advice to me
 * nealmcb files a CoC complaint related to bashing of the one true religion, emacs :)
<Seveas> I wouldn't look much further before giving a +1
<PriceChi1d> +1!
<forumsmatthew> Seveas, we have one of those on the list
<phanatic> +1
<ompaul> nealmcb,  hahaha
<popey> back on track...
<Seveas> nealmcb, the CoC has an emacs exception
<stgraber> +1
<forumsmatthew> Hey, wait a minute! Her wiki page has a photo of her wearing a Suse shirt!
<Myrtti> oh dear...
<forumsmatthew> http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/2448624368/in/set-72157603254007522/
<forumsmatthew> :)
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, so? suse ain't bad
<Seeker`> forumsmatthew: I have heard her complain about Suse several times :P
<Myrtti> I also bash SuSE and the "Â¤#&)"%/YW=="#Â¤&)="&)= of !Â¤%(%/!=(% yast2 everytime I get a chance
<popey> Myrtti: what do you think we can do to improve the profile of ubuntu-women?
<Myrtti> actually for Ubuntu Women I'm having a mixed feelings. It would be lovely if Ubuntu Women wouldn't have to exist at all
<Seeker`> Myrtti, talking about YasT, "-14:18:32- :Myrtti+: I don't have suitable words for this channel to fully express my feelings for that "#Ãâ¬&/(#%Ãâ¬%& #Ãâ¬%/#(&)# b "&"//I(Ãâ¬()Ãâ¬&#&%""&% 45
<forumsmatthew> Myrtti, I agree. Until that time, though...any plans or thoughts or ideas/
<Myrtti> the profile can be improved only by individuals
<popey> Myrtti: what do you think us simple males could do to help that happen?
<Myrtti> I try to pitch in my own .02â¬ in that
<Myrtti> that's a tough question...
<Myrtti> like I said, the profile can be improved only by individuals
<Myrtti> I've seen plenty of cases with individual acts of stupidity towards women
<Myrtti> but that issue goes far deeper
<popey> ..and not something we can solve in an emea membership board I suspect :)
<Myrtti> that's one of the reasons I think improving the usage of FLOSS in education is a good starting point
<Seveas> popey, since the dawn of time men failed to understand women and vice versa. A few geeks will not solve this in 90 minutes
<popey> indeed
<Seveas> (they can solve it in .0000090 seconds -- lhc gone bad)
<Myrtti> I was recently asked to help a local school with their LTSP installation, too bad I was too busy with my work
<popey> +1 for Myrtti as she clearly has a lot of support and a level head
<Seveas> that means IRC invasion completed
<Seveas> congrats Myrtti !
<Myrtti> oh wow, did I really make it? :-D
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!
<Pici> Yay, congrats :)
<Myrtti> \o/
<ke|p> congrats Myrtti
<Seveas> the next 3 candidates should be rejected. For one, none of them are here. The first two have a wikipage with no content and about Kmos I prepared some lines in a text editor
<Volans> congrats Myrtti :)
<Seveas> I'm going for a strong -1 on kmos. His main contribution according to his wikipage is related to the MOTU with whom he has had a lot of struggles in the past. He may have improved (which I doubt), but I want the *MOTU* to judge that not us. Here's a quote from Scott Kittermann he asked me to echo:
<Seveas> <ScottK> Kmos' work with the Ubuntu MOTU team was so damaging and disruptive that he was asked to stop volunteering work on Ubuntu developement.  He is currently silenced on the #ubuntu-motu channel.
<Seveas> <ScottK> Since being asked to stop developement work, he has attempted to evade the MOTU Council oversight and switch to a new Launchpad account (since merged with his).
<Seveas> <ScottK> Before being considered for Ubuntu member, he really ought to do what he was asked, respect the community's governance structure (MOTU Council in this case), and work to be seen as a positive contributor.
<Seveas> Also note that the only MOTU testimonial predates the actions the MOTU took to avoid more damage from him and can no longer be considered relevant.
<glade88> So its my turn I guess :)
<Seveas> glade88, no
<glade88> :/
<forumsmatthew> hang on, glade88
<Seveas> glade88, we need to hear the vote of the other board members on these 3 candidates
<glade88> Okay..
<PriceChild> I'm agreed on all 3 counts.
<stgraber> so do I
<forumsmatthew> I vote -1 on all. The first two because of severely lacking wiki pages, and the third based on the final testimonial
<phanatic> -1 on all of them for the same reasons
<popey> i say we do the same as we did last week, postpone rather than -1 them
<popey> and tell them why
<Seeker`> phanatic: 1 or 01?
<Daviey> just not being here should mean it is auto deferred ?
<Seeker`> *-1
<popey> if they have the motivation / inclination to fix it, they can
<popey> rather than blackballing them now
<forumsmatthew> popey, that seems fair. Will you contact them?
<popey> sure
<Seveas> popey, I think postponing makes sense if they actually put some effort into it
<Seveas> there's no effort at all
<forumsmatthew> I'm willing to change my vote to a postpone, certainly on the first two
<PriceChild> Daviey: check the wiki pages
<popey> there is no persceveed effort
<popey> perscieved
<popey> perceived
<popey> meh
<Seveas> popey, :)
<forumsmatthew> but not on the third at this time
<forumsmatthew> the strong negative testimonial from one who would know is enough to make me say he needs to deal with the issues he has been told to deal with first
<popey> i would rather tell people to do better, and _how_ to do better than -1 them when they aren't here
<Seveas> popey, if you'll tell them I'll change my vote to 0 -- postpone
<Seveas> (the first two that is)
<jpds> Kmos isn't even here.
<stgraber> they shouldn't have added themselves to the list with an empty wikipage ...
<Seveas> but they should be prepared next time, or if they can't make it nat add them to the list
<Seveas> s/nat/not/
<popey> if they arent ready they can remove themselves
<stgraber> but I'm also ok with changing to 0 for the two first ones if they are contacted and the wiki pages updated by next meeting (or removed from the list)
<popey> I'll contact them
<forumsmatthew> stgraber, I like that addition...
<Seveas> popey, and about kmos?
<nealmcb> I hear the frustration with kmos, and have no reason to disagree, but In general I'd suggest letting people speak for themselves before coming to a judgement.
<nealmcb> he certainly has support from loco members and translators
<nealmcb> so deferring seems most appropriate, for my $0.02
<Seveas> nealmcb, the strong objections from lots of MOTU weigh much heavier to me
<forumsmatthew> my hesitation comes from a perceived inability to work with others, specifically those in authority. That isn't much like the CoC/Ubuntu spirit that I want to see displayed
<nealmcb> I'm just curious what he would say himself
<Seveas> he's really (been) disruptive and counterproductive and needs to sort that out first
<Daviey> chaps, he isn't here - lets wait until he is.
<Pici> Daviey: I agree.
<Seeker`> it would be unfair to automatically -1 without the abilit yto defend himself
<popey> indeed, i recommend we postpone
<Daviey> same as it is unfair to +1 someone when they aren't here IMO.
<jpds> maybe we should move on to the other candidates?
<Seveas> I disagree, I see this as his 3rd attempt at gaining status whilst being disruptive
<forumsmatthew> I would like to hear those in charge of any project he is a part of say they are comfortable with his application, even if they don't support it, before I would approve
<popey> ok, it's been 90 mins
<Seveas> and we have one more candidate
<Seeker`> Can this be put to a vote then, so that tings can move on?
 * Daviey would like to see applications automatically postponed if they don't attend.  In this case we wouldn't have wasted 10 mins, for something that is going to need to happen again soon.
<Seveas> good idea
<popey> indeed
<Seveas> I'm going for -1
<forumsmatthew> I'm still -1
<popey> 0
<popey> i dont believe the cc woudl -1 anyone not in attendance
<popey> IMO
<Seveas> PriceChild, stgraber phanatic ?
<PriceChild> -1
 * nealmcb nods to popey
<Daviey> I've never seen the CC discus someone in regards to membership, in their absense for
<Daviey> s/for//
<Seveas> Daviey, I've seen it :)
<Seveas> stgraber, phanatic: still here?
<stgraber> -1
 * popey boggles
<phanatic> yeah. i'll go for postpone the first two guys, and -1 on Kmos
<Seeker`> stgraber: PriceChild : yopu are approving kmos' membership request, correct?
<PriceChild> What did I do..?
<Pici> They don't sound very approving to me.
<forumsmatthew> we have five -1s and a 0
<Seveas> that's 5 -1's and one 0 on kmos -- I'll contact him and discuss this with him. For now he's declined
<popey> i absolutely don't get why we are voting on anyone who is not here
<Seeker`> PriceChild: and stgraber both said "1", which is a positive vote
<PriceChild> Seeker`: you have a failing script
<Pici> Seeker`: I see a - in front of those 1s.
 * Seeker` doesn't :(
<PriceChild> Seeker`: i assume it is to do with capab identify-msg
<Seveas> glade88, you're up next
<glade88> Okay.
<PriceChild> Seveas: stripping the +s when its not meant to
<glade88> Hi.. I'm Sayak Banerjee, I am a 20 year old Ubuntu enthusiast, working full time with the Forums. (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=480363). Have Ubuntu since Dapper. *Using* Ubuntu since Feisty!! I am a member of the Beginners Team. I hang aroung the ABT and Desktop Effects forums. I am the Moderator of the Delhi LoCo team. The team has just started and we are vigorously working on...
<PriceChild> or -s or w/e
<glade88> ...Ubuntu Artwork. Also working towards promoting Ubuntu at my University and solving local problems.
<glade88> My Wikipage: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Dave701
<forumsmatthew> most of glade88s work is in the forums, which are down at the moment with a database issue that is being corrected as we speak
<glade88> Again? :/
<PriceChild> What do you mean 'again?' ? :O
<PriceChild> :P
<Myrtti> it could be worse
<Pici> irc could be down. :o
<glade88> PriceChild: Twas down around an hour ago..
<forumsmatthew> He is active in assisting new users, both with accurate advice as well as a positive tone and manner
<Myrtti> Pici: :-P
<forumsmatthew> he has a total of 1634 posts in the tech support areas, and an average of more than 10 posts a day in those areas
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, enough to make you give him an instant +1 or are you looking for more to back that up?
<popey> based on testimonials, +1
<forumsmatthew> Seveas, I'm still thinking...
<forumsmatthew> +1
<stgraber> +1, testimonials
<phanatic> +1
<Seveas> ooh, nice testimonials now, good job glade88
<glade88> :)
<Seveas> for the record: the last 3 of those weren't ther before the meeting and i urged him to collect some
 * forumsmatthew nudges PriceChi1d 
<PriceChild> +1, 3 forums admins do you proud. Very shiny wiki page too.. literally.
<Seveas> +1
<Seveas> I count 6 +'es
<Seveas> congrats!
<glade88> "Very shiny wiki page too.. literally" thanks
<forumsmatthew> congratulations
<glade88> Thank you !!
<glade88> \o/
<glade88> :D
<Seveas> nijaba, you're up (and last!)
<nijaba> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NicolasBarcet
<nijaba> I am a 40y old geek that has been digging computers for 30y and earning his life with his supposed skills for the past 25y or so.
<nijaba> I have been on Ubuntu since 6.06, and really enjoyed it as a server and desktop since then.
<nijaba> I am still learning my way aroud, but I feel I am making progress and trying to help at the same time.
<popey> \o/ old school geeks
<nijaba> Since I do Ubuntu product management during the day (which exclude coding), I am glad to have some free time to keep at coding a bit.
<nijaba> I must say that ubuntu-vm-builder and limesurvey have kept me busy in the past months, but that does not prevent helping the french loco and on various chans when I can.
<forumsmatthew> woo hoo! (from another old school geek)
 * nealmcb cheers for nijaba - a great contributor!
<Seveas> PriceChild, popey: doodle.ch is still calling you :)
<kees> nijaba's been doing tons of work, and a serious asset to the ubuntu server team.  props from me.  :)
<kirkland> fyi, guys, nijaba is essential to the Ubuntu Server team, great contributor
<Seveas> woah, kees is awake
<popey> Seveas: prv me the url
<PriceChild> Seveas: could you pm me the link again please?
<Seveas> done (both)
<popey> ta
<nealmcb> ...even if he is still just a kid....
<popey> on the basis of props from kees, +1 from me
<kees> Seveas: middle of my day.  :)
<Seveas> nijaba, when did you join canonical?
<Daviey> well recommends from kees, kirkland and nealmcb is pretty impressive IMO
<Seveas> Daviey, yeah
<nijaba> Seveas: october
<ajmitch> nijaba.. now that's a nick I recognise from the server channel regularly :)
<Seveas> based on testimonials, +1
<nijaba> thanks guys :)
<forumsmatthew> +1 here, because he is older than me... (barely)
<nijaba> forumsmatthew: just turned the counter a month ago
<phanatic> all of today's candidates have great testimonials, +1
<PriceChild> +1 too.
<forumsmatthew> phanatic, agreed
<stgraber> +1
<Seveas> well, 6 +'es again
 * Daviey has just worked out who nijaba is.
<Daviey> well done nijaba
<forumsmatthew> congratulations!!
<Seveas> end of the list!
<kirkland> nijaba: thanks for your work!  congrads.
<nijaba> Thanks so much!
<stgraber> congratz nijaba
 * kees hugs nijaba 
<Myrtti> congrats nijaba!
<glade88> Congrats!
<popey> can I make a proposal?
 * nijaba feels the love.... thanks !
 * nealmcb hugs nijaba
<popey> before we close up
<Seveas> popey, you can
<forumsmatthew> popey, please
<popey> that no members of _this_ membership board should be able to post testimonials on peoples pages
<popey> it's a slippery slope
<forumsmatthew> ??
<Daviey> +1
<popey> we could end up with an old boys club, a clique
<Seveas> I don't agree, same reasoning as last week
<PriceChild> so keep testimonials in here?
<popey> yes PriceChild
<forumsmatthew> I won't post on the page of someone I wouldn't support
<Seeker`> popey: what about give testiminials during meetings?
<popey> if you want to say something say it here
<Daviey> you would hope that there is enough support from non board members to give support to people standing.
<forumsmatthew> okay, now I get you...
<forumsmatthew> what about candidates appearing before other boards?
<Seveas> popey, what's wrong with putting it on the page if it's ok to say it in here?
<nealmcb> popey: I agree for apps before this board, but how about these folks commenting e.g. on a motu application?
 * Daviey thinks that maybe board members should only speak up on support after other members of the community have shown support.
<Seeker`> Daviey: why?
<popey> i just feel uncomfortable having a prospective member page being full of member (board) +1s
<forumsmatthew> I'm still leaning toward preferring to keep the freedom to post a testimonial
<Seveas> I'm with matthew
<Seeker`> popey: If they are going to +1 anyway, why cant they put it on th wikip age
<popey> what if the page _only_ contained testimonals from board members?
<Daviey> well when one candidate had 50% of references coming from board members on his wiki, it looked bad IMO
<forumsmatthew> if you posted on behalf of someone I didn't think was appropriate, I would say so
<PriceChild> I have put testimonials on candidates, because i am in the ubuntu irc council, who manages the team or activity they are a part of.
<forumsmatthew> really
<Seveas> let's post this for discussion to the board lists
<nealmcb> hmm - what if a member of this board won't be at a meeting?
<popey> ok Seveas
<PriceChild> I would like to see that as being different to the opinion I show in a meeting as a member of this board.
<forumsmatthew> I want to hear what the people who know the candidate have to say, though
<popey> I didnt want to get a decision here and now
<Pici> If anyones interested, I would have asked Seveas and PriceChild both for comments whether they were on the emea or not.
<popey> just wanted to bring it up
<popey> Pici: but they are
<Seveas> popey, another thing i want to discuss on the lists is the way we handled kmos' application
<Daviey> i think the CC should be asked for guidance on this issue.
<popey> Seveas: don't worry, that'lll come up
<forumsmatthew> I agree, these are two good topics for the lists
<vorian> a good testimonial is a good testimonial, regardless of who it comes from or how
<Seveas> popey, I figured, but please wait for me to post the results :)
<popey> ok, lets take both these to the lists
<popey> Seveas: i planned to do that
<PriceChild> Have we missed out meisok?
<meisok> hey! :)
 * nealmcb appreciates the work of this board - great to have the logjam cleared!
<Seveas> Daviey, after last emea (and americas) meetings, there were discussions between the CC and the membership boards about things people felt uncomfortable with or wanted guidance on
<Seveas> that worked well
<Daviey> groovy
<Seveas> PriceChild, meisok added himself during the meeting apparently. That's far too late.
<meisok> yes
<Seveas> PriceChild, fill out the doodle so we can see a time for next week!
<Seveas> :)
<PriceChild> Seveas: sorry,... i'm confused, what do mae mean?
<Volans> Hi meisok :)
<meisok> hi Volans  ;)
<Seveas> morning - afternoon - evening
<PriceChild> Seveas: morning afternoon evening? (memberhsip doc says all meetings should be evening to keep them distributed.)
<Seveas> PriceChild, ah, missed that
<Seveas> makes sense actually
<mc44> emea spans a fair few time zones
<mc44> if you count Russia :p
<PriceChild> Seveas: done
<Seveas> proposal: tuesday june 10, 18:00 UTC (a bit earlier is nice for eastern europe and middle east)
<Seveas> PriceChild, popey, phanatic, stgraber, forumsmatthew?
<popey> 18:00UTC is good for me
<PriceChild> tis fine
<stgraber> Seveas: perfect
<popey> 19:00UTC is better, but 18:00 is ok
<phanatic> Seveas: fine
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, ?
<Seveas> too busy fixing the database probably ;)
<Seveas> the silence is deafening, am I disconnected?
<forumsmatthew> sorry guys, my kid is throwing up
<forumsmatthew> gotta run
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, k
<forumsmatthew> whatever you choose is fine
<forumsmatthew> email me
<Seveas> good luck!
<Seveas> I'll send meeting results tomorrow
<Seveas> see you next week everyone
<ikonia> thank you
<glade88> Many thanks :)
<Volans> Seveas: just a question, we have to do something for mail alias etc.?
<ke|p> good night everyone :)
<Seveas> Volans, yes, you have to wait :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 Jun 21:00 UTC: Community Council | 04 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team
<Volans> Many thanks to all board members :)
<Volans> no problem for wait! :)
<stgraber> see you all next week, thanks
<nijaba> cheers and good night
<Myrtti> hyvÃ¤Ã¤ yÃ¶tÃ¤ _o/
<Volans> cheers to all and good night! :)
<meisok> regards and good night for all ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-03
<Hobbsee> Seveas: <#
<Hobbsee> Seveas: <3
<Hobbsee> (@ kmos)
<Syntux> @schedule Amman
<ubottu> Syntux: Schedule for Asia/Amman: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 04 Jun 00:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 09:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 19:00: LoCo Council | 05 Jun 00:00:  Server Team | 05 Jun 01:00: Kubuntu Team
<lukehasnoname> @schedule cdt
<ubottu> lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: cdt - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html
<lukehasnoname> @schedule cst
<ubottu> lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: cst - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html
<lukehasnoname> @schedule Houston
<ubottu> lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: Houston - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html
<lukehasnoname> @schedule CST
<ubottu> lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: CST - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html
<slangasek> @schedule Chicago
<ubottu> slangasek: Schedule for America/Chicago: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 03 Jun 16:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 01:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 11:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 16:00:  Server Team | 04 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu Team
<slangasek> there ;)
<lukehasnoname> ;_;
<lukehasnoname> that was my next try
<slangasek> now, where are the GNOME people when I need to told-you-so them about Americans not commonly referring to their timezones by city name...
<lukehasnoname> @schedule GMT-6
<ubottu> lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: GMT-6 - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html
<lukehasnoname> hahaha
<Syntux> @schedule Mars
<ubottu> Syntux: Error: Unknown timezone: Mars - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html
<lukehasnoname> How are things in Jordan
<Syntux> lukehasnoname, dandy
<Syntux> lukehasnoname, ever been there?
<lukehasnoname> not at all
<lukehasnoname> I've never been more than 1200 miles from home
<lukehasnoname> which means I've never been out of Texas :)
<Syntux> heh
<lukehasnoname> haha, no I've been to tennessee and Colorado and everywhere between and south, if you know the U.S.
<Syntux> lukehasnoname, yeah, aware of states names, my brother been there for long time.
<lukehasnoname> syntux: Is Jordan peaceful compared to the rest of the region?
<Syntux> lukehasnoname, depends how you look at the region, anyway I guess we should take this into PM or #Ubuntu-offtopic
<Seeker`> @schedule
<ubottu> Seeker`: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 03 Jun 21:00: Community Council | 04 Jun 06:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00: Kubuntu Team
<mdz> good evening
<tkamppeter> hi
<Keybuk> evening
<mdz> #startmeeting
<mdz> MootBot: poke
<jdstrand> hi
<Keybuk> mdz: wasn't MootBot one of Dennis's?
<pitti> hi
<mdz> Keybuk: I haven't tried to use it in a while, but was sure it was rescued
<pitti> hi
<mdz> it doesn't seem to be responding. oh, well.
<zul> hello
<mdz> [TOPIC] core developer application from Till Kamppeter
<mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-May/001100.html
<Keybuk> I really only have one question for tkamppeter
<mdz> there looks to have been some controversy in the thread leading up to this application being submitted
<Keybuk> and it's entirely unrelated to his core-dev application
<mdz> I hope it isn't "why doesn't my printer work?"
<\sh> evening
<Keybuk> mdz: yes, it pretty much is ;)
<tkamppeter> Keybuk, are we still waiting for someone?
<\sh> Keybuk, don't buy dell..buy real hardware ,-)
<pitti> Till is the prime example for a "specialist" developer; I hardly look at the debdiffs of system-config-printer or foomatic etc. any more, but I would carefully check a gnome-panel or udev upload from him
<Keybuk> more "hawlp! my printer doesn't work! what can I do to help you fix it?" :)
<mdz> tkamppeter: can you tell us about the concerns which were raised on the list with regard to the Brother driver packages?
<mdz> tkamppeter: no, not waiting, we're just a bit slow tonight
<mdz> Keybuk and I represent a quorum
<tkamppeter> It was that I have uploaded the packages with some quirks in them, like a world-writable directory. I have hurried somewhat to get them in before FF and assuming that there are still 6 weeks in which the very motivated contributors could polish them.
<pitti> (please note that this was merely uploaded to NEW, and rejected there; they never actually landed in the archive)
<mdz> pitti: tkamppeter mentioned that you had reviewed these packages as well, and approved of their upload. any comment?
<Keybuk> tkamppeter: had you taken any steps to motivate the contributors?
<Keybuk> or at least alert them to the problems?
<pitti> it was partly my fault
<pitti> in an effort to process the 23948239432 NEW packages before FF more efficiently, I asked people to just upload, and I'd review them directly in NEW
<tkamppeter> Keybuk, I have forwarded everything which pitti told me about which was wrong to them and I got improved packages a day later or so.
<pitti> instead of getting them reviewed somewhere else by MOTU first
<pitti> mdz: i. e. I said "please upload to NEW, I'll review them", instead of "I review them from <someurl>, then we fix it, then upload" (the standard procedure)
<mdz> tkamppeter: were you aware of any of those problems before pitti reviewed the package?
<mdz> some of them seemed like basic packaging errors
<tkamppeter> The upstream quality of these packages was very bad. They had to do a lot of hacking to get them into a distro-installable form. I have checked the structure and whether they install smoothly on my box and whether they build under pbuilder, but I have really overlooked that there was a world-writable dir in them.
<mdz> tkamppeter: doesn't lintian check that?
<mdz> non-standard-dir-perm I think
<tkamppeter> Probably I have not tried it to drive to complete lintian-cleaniness but looked only on whether it installs and runs.
<mdz> tkamppeter: did you run lintian on the package?
<tkamppeter> I really must look into the thread again about what exactly I have done and what I have asked the contributor to fix in which stage.
<Seeker`> sorry bout the lack of mootbot
<Seeker`> there have been big hosting porblems, and it doesn't seem to be working properly on its current host
<mdz> Seeker`: sorry to hear it; please email me if there is something I can do to help
<Keybuk> tkamppeter: I have a scenario for you.
<Keybuk> It's after Intrepid Beta release, and you're getting a lot of bug reports about printers not working.  One of the bug reports has a patch to HAL that people are enthusiastically reporting fixes it for them, and this is getting wide publicity on forums and blogs.
<Keybuk> What's your next step?
<\sh> tkamppeter, any reasoning to not follow the motu rules for contributed packages from non-motus? I'm curious why you didn't send them to revu/motu with their packages, despite the fact, that motus could upload NEW packages without being reviewed when they were build from themselves
<Seeker`> mdz: sadly, most people wont touch eggdrop. I'll try and get it fixed this evening
<pitti> that has been discussed on the ML already: FF churn
<mdz> pitti: the feedback of yours linked from the council's recommendation seems to pertain specifically to the comments on the brother package.  do you have more general comments as a sponsor other than what you already said about specialization?
<tkamppeter> \sh, pitti has told me to directly upload into NEW, due to the FF. If no one has invited me to do so I had taken the standard procedure-
<pitti> mdz: My feeling is that tkamppeter understands the freeze rules now, and I trust him enough to upload the printer specific packages (like system-config-printer, cups, foomatic, etc.); he's still not a 100% proficient packager, but a great printing package maintainer and upstream developer
<pitti> of course I understand that right now we still don't have this DM-like concept in Ubuntu
<tkamppeter> Keybuk, I would try out the package by myself and run it to see whether it improves the situation and does not break anything (as longs as feasable on my box). I would also check through the changes to see whether there is something broken, or whether an extra library (= new dependency) is needed ...
<pitti> tkamppeter: what's your answer to Keybuk's scenario?
<Keybuk> tkamppeter: ok, so your testing does indeed show that printing works again with the patch, and doesn't introduce any new dependencies
<Keybuk> what's next?
<tkamppeter> I would also try a build with pbuilder if the patch is non-trivial, to catch an FTBFS due to a new dep.
<pitti> tkamppeter: just assume that the package builds, and works now
<tkamppeter> If the patch is not very small I would try a lintian to see whether nothing in the package structure broke (or thingslike world-writale dir)
<Keybuk> tkamppeter: builds fine, lintian shows no new problems
<tkamppeter> If there is enough time and if other users are participating in the bug discussion I would upload the files onto my server (or PPA) and invite the others to test.
<Keybuk> tkamppeter: you get a number of thanks from the reporters, and they say it fixes it
<tkamppeter> (All assumiung that I do not have the printer in question) Then I would have enough confidence to upload it: Package actually improves situation for owners of the hardware in question, package is lintian-OK, package does not FTBFS, then I would sign and upload it.
<tkamppeter> Smaller issued are then hopefully found by the wide Intrepid testing community.
<pitti> tkamppeter: how much do you actually know about the guts of hal?
<tkamppeter> Only more basic stuff, I have done some simple changes in hal-cups-utils, including making it actually working on Ubuntu. I have read through HAL docs for that.
<Keybuk> there are many patches in Launchpad which appear to fix the problem
<Keybuk> but are in fact, somewhat wrong
<Keybuk> they may break something else you weren't testing
<pitti> and create a huge security  hole, or are fundamentally wrong
<Keybuk> or they may be deliberate decisions by upstream or by the person in Ubuntu who cares a lot about that
<Keybuk> especially if you don't know much about the package in question, it's often an idea to talk to other people first
<Keybuk> before applying a patch to HAL, even I generally check with pitti
<Keybuk> if he's not around, others like cjwatson, slangasek or myself may be able to spot the problem you're about to introduce
<pitti> and patches should generally be sent to upstream; after FF they should even be discussed with upstream *before* applying them (unless it's really obvious, like fixing a NULL deref, or so)
<tkamppeter> I am also generally trying to get patches upstream, I akso dislike that the distros deviate too much from upstream as this creates a maintenance nightmare and also a lot of mail about non-upstream problems in upstream forums.
<mdz> tkamppeter: if a mechanism were available for you to gain upload privileges for specific packages, rather than all of main (as ubuntu-core-dev currently implies), would you have opted for that rather than ubuntu-core-dev?
<mdz> tkamppeter: or are you interested in participating more generally in development?
<tkamppeter> For the Common Printing Dialog for example I have informed the relevant upstreams and let my GSoC student make work together with them-
<Seeker`> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:37. The chair is Seeker`.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Seeker`> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:37.
<mdz> Seeker`: thanks
<Seeker`> the logs wont be available immediately, but hopefully in the next 24 hours or so
<tkamppeter> mdz, this mechanism would be enough for me. My plans are simply to continue in the printing area. And on non-printing packages like HAL or so, I would only upload small trivial patches, never a big thing, and I usually ask here on IRC if I am in doubt with a method or idea to get something solved.
<mdz> I am told that Launchpad will provide such a mechanism in the foreseeable future
<mdz> and so I would like to propose the option of applying for core-dev with a commitment to limit uploads to a named set of packages
<mdz> to be transitioned to that new access control mechanism when it becomes available
<sirderigo> hola
<mdz> Keybuk: would you be willing to consider that?
<mdz> iirc we did something similar for rtg
<tkamppeter> mdz, so I agree with that. Can we simply say that the TB agrees on that with me and activate this state as soon as the Launchpad is ready?
<Keybuk> mdz: as in, grant core-dev privileges until such time as we can make better lists?
<mdz> Keybuk: privileges with a social limitation
<Keybuk> that was my feeling of the right course
<mdz> until that social limitation can become a technical one
<Keybuk> tkamppeter: would you be happy limiting yourself to printing packages, and where there are patches to things like HAL, still working with others like pitti to have them upload them?
<tkamppeter> mdz, I will upload only printing stuff directly, for other things I will ask others whether it is OK before uploading.
<mdz> tkamppeter: we will need a list of packages
<mdz> tkamppeter: could you prepare such a list and email it to technical-board? then we can process your application by email
<pitti> the hardy ones on https://edge.launchpad.net/~till-kamppeter/+packages seem like a good start
<mdz> tkamppeter: you don't need to do it right now; we can take this offline
<mdz> tkamppeter: are you there?
<tkamppeter> Yes, I am here, mail sent.
<mdz> tkamppeter: OK, we will move on with the meeting and then review the package list
<tkamppeter> OK.
<mdz> tkamppeter: thanks for talking with us
<mdz> jdstrand: still here?
<jdstrand> mdz: yep
<mdz> [TOPIC] Ubuntu core developer application from Jamie Strandboge
<mdz> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2008-May/001101.html
<mdz> kees: are you here?  you've presumably sponsored more of Jamie's packages than anyone
<kees> hi!
<kees> I'm a huge super-supporter of jamie's work
<Seeker`> mdz: You need to do #startmeeting
<mdz> soren,zul: are you here?
<soren> I am indeed.
<kees> he's been doing extensive uploads to -security for a while now, and I have no reservations at all about his abilities.  any time an update is assigned to him, I know it's getting done very well.
<mdz> Seeker`: I figured an incomplete log would be confusing, and that I should just publish my own copy
<Seeker`> fair enough :)
<soren> I can vouch 100% for Jamie. I have no reservations at all granting him core-dev privileges.
<zul> mdz: I am I have uploaded a couple of Jamie's packages and I have quite happy about his work. I support him 100%
<mdz> soren: what sort of work of his have you reviewed (presumably non-security-related)?
<soren> He's careful and has a keen sense of detail, and most certainly has the techincal skill required.
<mdz> jdstrand: I'm pretty familiar with your extensive work on security updates, but am curious about what you've done with more general packaging, since there's a different set of issues there
<soren> mdz: Hm... All sorts of things really. I can't remember sponsoring a whole lot of uploads for him, but we routinely discuss packaging issues and other techincal stuff.
<kees> I've sponsored uploads of ufw.  while it's not really part of larger existing subsystems yet, it's packaging, I think, is quite good.
<Keybuk> "quite good" ? :-)
<jdstrand> mdz: wrt Ubuntu, I work on ufw, auth-client-config and migrating apparmor profiles to packages. Some of the issues involved with apparmor can be seen in the wiki docoument: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApparmorProfileMigration
<Keybuk> as mdz so wryly observed in Prague, that's British for "OMFG! STAY AWAY!" :p
<kees> Keybuk: ah, oops.  I'm en_US
<kees> I mean it at face value.  :)
<kees> it's good, but not complex, packaging, is perhaps what I mean.
<jdstrand> mdz: I am a big believer in Debian Policy, and while I don't have it memorized, I consult it frequently when packaging
<mdz> jdstrand: you created that document, right?  very nice
<soren> For one thing, he has demonstrated knowledge of many of the not-quite-obvious details of Debian packaging, but more importantly he's never been afraid to ask, and seems to never have to ask the same question twice.
<jdstrand> and if I have a question or idea, I am not hesitant to ask
<jdstrand> mdz: I did-- thank you :)
<pitti> I reviewed auth-client-config back then for MIR, and didn't find packaging issues
<mdz> soren: do you have any examples of not-quite-obvious details in mind?
<mathiaz> I'd like to add that I've worked with jdstrand on Apparmor profile upgrades for hardy - that involved some in-depth discussion about postinst upgrades. This works highlitghts the strength of jdstrand general packaging skill IMO.
<mdz> pitti: thanks for your feedback.  what sort of package features were used in it?
<pitti> mdz: nothing really exciting; standard debhelper and control; pretty much the package you apt-get source, look at, and understand instantly :)
<soren> mdz: I remember discussing maintainer scripts with Jamie on a few occasions, and have been positively surprised at his understanding of them. That seems to be a common stumbling point for lots of people.
<pitti> (which is, well, good?)
<mdz> it's basically debconfiscations + supporting bits, right?
<pitti> auth-client-config uses nothing like that (maintscripts, debconf, etc.)
<pitti> great ++ for running tests during build, and having tests at all
<mdz> pitti: odd, it depends on debconf
<zul> I think it also worth mentioning that jdstrand does alot of work on ubuntu-qa regression testing
<pitti> ah, heh
<mdz> Keybuk: any questions for jdstrand?
<Keybuk> mdz: none, everything's covered
<mdz> ok, that's plenty of feedback for me.  calling for votes then
<Keybuk> +1
<mdz> +1, loads of positive sponsor feedback and a strong track record of good quality work
<mdz> jdstrand: congratulations and welcome
<jdstrand> \o/
<soren> \o/
<kees> \o/ congratz jdstrand !
<mdz> one less thing for kees to do, I hope ;-)
<jdstrand> mdz, Keybuk: thank you :)
<zul> yay!
<mdz> any other business for the meeting?  we haven't had one in a while, and I'm a bit behind on email
<jdstrand> kees, soren, mathiaz, zul: thanks for your support and great feedback all along :)
<mdz> so if there are any pressing issues which I've overlooked, please raise them now
<jdstrand> pitti: oh and that goes for you too! :)
<mathiaz> jdstrand: congratzzzz ! you deserve it :)
<Keybuk> mdz: meeting time!
<soren> jdstrand: You're welcome. Just keep doing what you're doing :)
<pitti> jdstrand: thanks to your good work! welcome to core-dev
<mdz> Keybuk: indeed
<mdz> Keybuk: do you have a proposal in mind?
<Keybuk> mdz: I propose 1400 UTC
<Keybuk> on tuesday
<mdz> difficult for the UTC-7 crowd
<Keybuk> truer
<mdz> but I'm a fan of handling more things by email anyway
<mdz> e.g. pitti's micro version request recently
<Keybuk> but both of our calendars have the "Californian Morning" pretty solid :p
<Keybuk> and I don't think it would be bad to actually make the meeting time more flexible
<Keybuk> e.g. one week we could opt to hold it later, or earlier
<mdz> kees: you're representing the west side...do you think it would be seen as unfortunate if the meeting moved earlier?
<kees> this meeting?
<mdz> kees: yes, the bi-weekly TB meeting
<mathiaz> mdz: FYI, the ubuntu server team considers moving its meeting to tuesday 15:00 UTC
<mdz> not something which anyone from your time zone is required to attend, but something we want to keep open to participation
<kees> that'd be 7am
<kees> I don't think that's unreasonable.
<slangasek> s/Californian/Oregon/, yo ;P
<kees> props++
<mdz> and as Keybuk says, if someone wants to ensure that they can be here to discuss something with us, we can always adjust the time for a particular meeting
<kees> yeah, it's not like it's 3am or anything.  7am is reasonable if some needs to discuss something live
<mdz> if there are no objections, I'm fine with changing it, and if anyone shouts, we can discuss it further by email
<mdz> forgiveness vs. permission and all that
<mdz> ok, 1400 UTC it is
<mdz> I'll notify ubuntu-devel-announce, ubuntu-news-team, etc.
<mdz> ok, thanks everyone for participating
<mdz> adjourned
<lukehasnoname> Canonical should have an America regional office in Houston
<Keybuk> lukehasnoname: it's in Lexington
<lukehasnoname> KENTUCKY?
<nixternal> Massachusetts
<lukehasnoname> the state has a total population of 'hick'
<lukehasnoname> oh
<lukehasnoname> haha
<lukehasnoname> couldn't stray too far from the pond, I guess
<lukehasnoname> :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team
<JanC> @schedule Brussels
<ubottu> JanC: Schedule for Europe/Brussels: Current meeting: Community Council | 04 Jun 08:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 18:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 23:00:  Server Team | 05 Jun 00:00: Kubuntu Team
<lukehasnoname> hm
<ompaul> Seveas, who should be running this one?
<Seveas> ompaul, hm?
<Seveas> (just arrived home)
<ompaul> ahh cc meeting should be in progress afik but ain't
<JanC> according to the Fridge calendar & ubottu there is a meeting going on for 15 minutes now  ã
<Burgundavia> yes, it is just about to start
<mdke> evening, sorry I'm late
<Burgundavia> MikeB said his meeting is running later than he expected
<Burgundavia> so we need elmo, sabdfl and dholbach
<mdke> Burgundavia: difficult for us to have a meeting with just us two. How late is MikeB?
<Burgundavia> he pinged me on gmail chat about 20 minutes and said it would be later than even his email said
<Burgundavia> you were almost alone. The weather prevented me from flying today
<mdke> i had a pretty late one at work, just arrived
<mdke> do you know if the local team item was discussed at the last meeting? I believe it has been on the agenda at least since then
<ompaul> mdke, they are up and running and handling memberships
<mdke> ompaul: that's not the item I mean... i mean the agenda item
<mdke> "LoCo teams as legal entities?"
<sbc> mdke: That was discussed last time.
<mdke> sbc: thanks, I'll have to check the logs then
<Seveas> me too
<sbc> mdke: We (the danish team) hope to show up at a comming meeting with a proposal for the CC, but we are not ready yet.
<mdke> sbc: ok
<sbc> hopefully for next meeting.
<mdke> sbc: I'll take the agenda item off for now then
<sbc> mdke: Feel free to do so. For the record, who is supposed to clear the agenda after a meeting?
<mdke> sbc: we don't have a fixed rule
<mdke> Burgundavia: I suggest we postpone the meeting. I don't have much time left now
<sbc> ok - so I shouldn't feel bad? There is no tradition that it is the person who puts a item up there who is supposed to remove it again?
<mdke> sbc: no, no problem
<sbc> ok :)
<Burgundavia> yep
<mdke> ok. MEETING POSTPONED. Sorry to anyone who turned up hoping for a discussion :(
<mdke> we'll rearrange the meeting as soon as possible
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-04
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 01:00 UTC: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
<Syntux> @schedule Amman
<ubottu> Syntux: Schedule for Asia/Amman: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 04 Jun 09:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 19:00: LoCo Council | 05 Jun 00:00:  Server Team | 05 Jun 01:00: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 04:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
<nickellery> @schedule Vancouver
<ubottu> nickellery: Schedule for America/Vancouver: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 03 Jun 23:00: Platform Team | 04 Jun 09:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 14:00:  Server Team | 04 Jun 15:00: Kubuntu Team | 04 Jun 18:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Platform Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 01:00 UTC: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 01:00 UTC: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team
<paul928> !approval
<ubottu> Factoid approval not found
<paul928> !loco
<ubottu> Information on Ubuntu Local Community Teams is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams
<leoquant> @schedule Amsterdam
<ubottu> leoquant: Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day | 04 Jun 18:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 23:00:  Server Team | 05 Jun 00:00: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 03:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 15:00: Desktop Team
<amachu_> hi
<amachu___> hi
<amachu___> ping
<amachu___> any one from Asia Oceania Membership Council
<TheMuso> Yep.
<persia> SOrry I'm late
<amachu___> hi
<zakame> hi
<amachu___> persia: ?
<persia> amachu___ ?
<zakame> hmm somebody set up squid on mekong?
<amachu___> TheMuso: Hi
<TheMuso> Greetings amachu___ and all.
<amachu___> Welcome
<amachu___> so this time is fine with you..
<amachu___> great..
<persia> For today: Wednesdays are my least good day.
<TheMuso> I can do this time any night of the week except Mondays.
<amachu___> persia: means?
<persia> amachu_: The time is good, but the day is awkward.  I'd prefer Tuesday, Thursday, or Friday (as I don't want to miss TheMuso)
<zakame> hehe
<persia> lifeless? elky? Are you active?
<zakame> I'm ready any day except weekends (we're very irc-centric at work heh)
<elky> yep
<amachu___> persia: Ok
<persia> Belutz seems off IRC now.
<amachu___> zakame: thats great
<amachu___> :-)
<amachu___> i am ok with any day too
<amachu___> so as of now we have tueday, thursday, friday falling common to all of us here :-)
<persia> elky: Which of those is best for you?
<elky> persia, friday sucks for me as it's lug night once a month, thursday sucks for me as i'm usually on a conf call
<elky> so tuesday
<persia> So, from now, Tuesdays at 11:00 (starting next week)?
<amachu___> i am ok
<TheMuso> SOunds good to me.
<persia> Also, we've only two applicants despite being the last regional team to get organised.  Do we want weekly, or fortnightly?
<elky> i think you'll find we only have too applicants *because* we're the last regional team to get organised
<persia> Weekly, then, at least for now.
<amachu___> persia: Ok with me
<elky> yeah. easier to get the evening back than it is to give it away
<persia> OK.  Last item of internal business: how do we want to distribute reporting activities?  Shall we have a single secretary?  Who?  Shall we delegate responsibilities around so nobody has too much?
<elky> i am an utter fail as a secretary for the fact i do too many things at once.
<TheMuso> I won't have the time to do it unfortunately.
<persia> amachu_? zakame?
<amachu___> fine, let me take it up intially
<persia> Hurrah!  We have a secretary!
 * persia presents amachu_ with the box containing a shiny gavel to run the meeting
<zakame> ka-ching!
<amachu___> :D
<amachu___> persia: so let me sum up, we are going to have meeting every tuesday, 11.00 AM UTC
<TheMuso> SOunds good.
 * persia can do that time
<amachu___> zakame: ka-ching?
<elky> yep
<zakame> amachu___: sound effect for the gavel, but probably the wrong one :D
<zakame> tuesdays are good :)
<amachu___> great!
<zakame> its meeting day for me
<amachu___> so let me take up the responsibility of editing the wiki page right now ;-)
<amachu___> So its 10 June 2008, Tuesday, 11.00 AM UTC
<persia> (and 17, 24, July 1, 8, 15, 22, 29...)
<amachu___> persia: :-)
<persia> Our first meeting will be 10th June?  I think we ought hear applicants, if they happen to be here tonight.
<persia> They were sent mail about it a few days ago (although no black marks if they aren't here)
<amachu___> persia: yes. I have updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<persia> Well, not here anyway, so my point is moot.
<amachu___> persia: yes, are they here?
<amachu___> no, i suppose
 * bimberi could pretend.  For practice ;)
<amachu___> what else, whom should we update so that the title of this channel will be updated to reflect our decision?
<persia> Used to be fridge-devel, but there's a new list which name escapes me.
<persia> Ah.  ubuntu-news-team@lists.ubuntu.com
 * persia edits the wiki page again to use the linky widget, and wonders if this meeting is adjourned, or just quiet
<amachu> i was lost, i beleive
<amachu> persia: hi
<persia> amachu: Welcome.  You're looking healthier :)
<amachu> ha..
<amachu> fine, i am in ubuntu-news-team and i will update the list about the next week's meeting
<amachu> any thing else that we need to do?
<persia> I've just noticed that we'll collide with the Community Council meeting on the third Tuesday of each month.  On the other hand, they never schedule in advance, and have at least rescheduled the 17th June meeting.
<bimberi> You should contact people at the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda and ask them if they're still interested in applying
<amachu> persia: are you referring to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<persia> amachu: Indeed.
<amachu> yes it says 11.00 UTC
<persia> The fridge events list looks empty, but...
<lifeless> hi
<lifeless> I am sorry I am late
<lifeless> but as previously indicated, timings are tricky
<persia> lifeless: No worries.  We decided to have meetings on Tuesdays at 11:00, and amachu volunteered to be secretary.
<lifeless> 11UTC ?
<persia> Yes.
<lifeless> thats about the best possible locus for me
<persia> Excellent!
<persia> Of course, there's the possible conflict with the CC on the third Tuesday of each month, but we can deal with that later.
<amachu__> hi
<amachu_> i internet connection is poor, breaking and backing
<amachu_> now
<amachu__> ok
<amachu_> persia:  we will go ahead with next week's plan as decided
<persia> amachu: Sounds perfect to me :)
<amachu_> thanks
 * persia is talkative, but not necessarily authoritative
<amachu_> i will also update the ubuntu-news-team now
<amachu_> will the channel operator get it reflected here then?
<persia> Yep.
<bimberi> amachu_: the topic is updated automatically by ubottu (using data from the Fridge iirc)
<persia> It just needs someone to add the items to the fridge to appear.
<amachu> ??
<amachu> hi
<elkbuntu> you didnt miss anythng
<amachu> elkbuntu: :-)
<amachu> so shall we wind up today's meeting
<amachu> any thing to discuss?
<amachu> i just mailed ubuntu-news-team about the meeting
<amachu> scheduled for next week
<amachu> persia: there?
<persia> Yes
<amachu> shall we depart for now
<zakame> okies
<amachu> i wil mail the list about the decisions and sum up now too
<persia> amachu: Thanks again for taking on the role of secretary
<amachu> 1) Our next meeting on 10 June 08, 11.00 AM UTC
<amachu> persia: hope to do it better. thank you.
<amachu> thank you all for joining today
<amachu> :-)
<amachu> bye
<zakame> bye
<persia> bye
<amachu__> persia: hope to do it better. thank you.
<amachu__> thank you all for joing today
<amachu__> bye for now
<Seeker`> what meeting was that?
<persia> Seeker`: Organisational meeting for the Asia-Oceania Regional Membership Board
<Seeker`> ah, cool
<effie_jayx> @now
<ubottu> effie_jayx: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 04 2008, 13:23:51 - Current meeting: Bugs for Hugs Day
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Jun 16:00 UTC: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 01:00 UTC: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team
<santiago-ve> @time
<ubottu> santiago-ve: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 04 2008, 13:41:56 - Next meeting: LoCo Council in 2 hours 18 minutes
<santiago-ve> @time Caracas
<ubottu> santiago-ve: Current time in America/Caracas: June 04 2008, 09:12:08 - Next meeting: LoCo Council in 2 hours 17 minutes
<hacktick> @time SÃ£o Paulo
<ubottu> hacktick: Error: Unknown timezone: SÃ£o Paulo - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html
<hacktick> @time Sao_Paulo
<ubottu> hacktick: Current time in America/Sao_Paulo: June 04 2008, 10:43:32 - Next meeting: LoCo Council in 2 hours 16 minutes
<lukehasnoname> @time yesterday
<ubottu> lukehasnoname: Error: Unknown timezone: yesterday - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html
<lukehasnoname> @yesterday
 * lukehasnoname laughs
<hacktick> ^^
<hacktick> @time
<ubottu> hacktick: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 04 2008, 13:54:24 - Next meeting: LoCo Council in 2 hours 5 minutes
<persia> Erm.  Please stop abusing the bot.  With too much abuse, it dies, and is hard to get back :(
 * hacktick wonders why that time is different to my system clock
<persia> The bot hosting system has different synchronisation with NTP?
<lukehasnoname> the bot dies? They are immortal! Look at Data. If Shinzon hadn't tried to destroy Earth... maybe.... I DON'T WANT TO TIHNK ABOUT IT
<hacktick> my system time seems to be ok.
<Mau_ec> Buenos DÃ­as
<hacktick> bom dia
<Pretto> hacktick, aqui sÃ³ fala ingles
<hacktick> Mau_ec: comeÃ§ou nÃ£o falar inglÃªs!
<hacktick> Pretto: are you in contact with the brazilian LoCo council?
<Pretto> hacktick, yeap why?
<hacktick> Im frustrated with lots of things wich are not working in brazil. Im preparing an email to the council.
<Syntux> @schedule Amman
<ubottu> Syntux: Schedule for Asia/Amman: 04 Jun 19:00: LoCo Council | 05 Jun 00:00:  Server Team | 05 Jun 01:00: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 04:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 16:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 23:00: Security Team
<Syntux> @schedule utc
<ubottu> Syntux: Schedule for Etc/UTC: 04 Jun 16:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 21:00:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 01:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 13:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00: Security Team
<viperhoot> @schedule lima
<ubottu> viperhoot: Schedule for America/Lima: 04 Jun 11:00: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 16:00:  Server Team | 04 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu Team | 04 Jun 20:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 08:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 15:00: Security Team
<boredandblogging> @now
<ubottu> boredandblogging: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 04 2008, 15:37:27 - Next meeting: LoCo Council in 22 minutes
 * lukehasnoname eats lunch in 22 minutes
<JanC> hm, 2 LoCo-candidates were added yesterday?
<boredandblogging> JanC: looks like it
<nxvl> boredandblogging: :D
<estebandid0> alquien de ecuador??
<eddieftw> hola estebandid0
<viperhoot> nxvl: tu acÃ¡ ?
<alex-ec> hola estebandid0
<alex-ec> yo de Ecuador
<alex-ec> :D
<hubuntu> for what's worth Ubuntu-ec was in the approval process right when they changed the way things are done in the middle of april
<eddieftw> hi effie_jayx
<nxvl> viperhoot: there isn't any security system that can stop me :D
<pedro_> Spanish Mafia?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: LoCo Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 01:00 UTC: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team
<viperhoot> hahha
<nxvl> viperhoot: the proxies are never a solution
<viperhoot> nxvl: quien es el contacto ?
<nxvl> viperhoot: english please, the council
<viperhoot> pedro_: latin mafia :P
<xander21c> Hello :D
<viperhoot> hhha
<word> viperhoot: i think if he told you he'd have to let you sleep with the fishes :P
<pedro_> viperhoot: those ones are worst :-PP
<viperhoot> hahaha
<viperhoot> @schedule lima
<ubottu> viperhoot: Schedule for America/Lima: Current meeting: LoCo Council | 04 Jun 16:00:  Server Team | 04 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu Team | 04 Jun 20:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 08:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 15:00: Security Team
<viperhoot> 10
<alex-ec> sorry people
<alex-ec> only english :)
<word> english ftw
<estebandid0> ok got it
<effie_jayx> popey
<JanC> hm, wiki down ?
<boredandblogging> JanC: seems ok here
<boredandblogging> @now
<ubottu> boredandblogging: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 04 2008, 15:59:21 - Current meeting: LoCo Council
<johnc4510> JanC: wiki ok here
<boredandblogging> popey: ping
<huats> hi everyone
<pedro_> heno: there's a loco meeting going on at 16:00 here, shall we move the qa one to another channel?
<stgraber> pedro_: we really should make sure the QA one is on the fridge as well :)
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx, JanC, popey: how about we go through the LoCos first and then come back to the agenda?
<pedro_> jcastro: ^ ;-)
<heno> pedro_: right, let's use #ubuntu-testing
<cgregan> heno, pedro_: Shall we move over to #ubuntu-testing?
<zkorpio> hi everybody
<effie_jayx> Hello
<pedro_> heno: going now
<alex-ec> hello zkorpio
<heno> cgregan: yep, let's
<JanC> boredandblogging: is okay for me
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx: are you ok with that?
<effie_jayx> Sure
<boredandblogging> juliux said that he might not be able to make it
<boredandblogging> so 3 of 5 members are here, should we start?
<boredandblogging> anyone from Jordan here?
<Syntux> yes
<Syntux> I'm the LoCo contact/leader of Jordan and I was expecting three of the team to be with me but apparently they couldn't make it.
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx, JanC: since we got 3, lets start
<JanC> okay
<boredandblogging> Syntux: you want to give an intro?
<Syntux> boredandblogging, nothing much other than what's in the wiki
<Syntux> but I would like to emphasis that we are not a social group and so we encourage joining if the candid can contribute and only contribute to the team activities.
<boredandblogging> Syntux: most of your focus seems to be at the university level, have you reached out in any other way?
<Syntux> we are not trying to replace the local lug in its social activities and we are trying to build a team of qualified people to spread the word properly.
<popey> sorry guys
<Syntux> boredandblogging, we do have plans for small computer shop https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-jo/2008-June/000147.html
<JanC> Syntux: you participate with the LUGs though?
<Syntux> unfortunately most of computer shops install FreeDOS if the customer decline paying for MS and that's either because they don;'t know about Linux or they don't know that there is a local group that can provide help
<JanC> damn, why can't I get on the wiki  :-(
<Syntux> JanC, I'm a core member of Jolug.
<Syntux> JanC, and of course as a team we do participate in Jolug social activities although it's not that much
<Syntux> one of our plans is to do things slowly, we are not planning to have more than one activity per month which can include lecture, course and install fest
<boredandblogging> from the lectures and workshops you have done, have you gotten people interested or using Ubuntu?
<Syntux> we are also trying to reach other universities out of the city but yet we don't have good contacts there.
<Syntux> boredandblogging, yes we even got some active members out of the lectures
<popey> Syntux: do you have any way of "measuing" your membership? do you use mailing list stats, forum stats or launchpad team members?
<Syntux> namely Ramy Eid, he's IEEE member in Jordan university and he did all the logistic for us when we head there.
<boredandblogging> Syntux: the Ubuntu Lab, did you approach the university to do that?
<Syntux> popey, I don't have access to the mailing list stats yet and my team is relatively inactive on forums and launchpad but seriously active on the floor
<Syntux> most of them are fresh university students and they do WoW and online gaming rather than IRC, forums and mailing lists.
<popey> :)
<JanC> Syntux: when did you start with the LoCoTeam (I didn't find anything before March on the application-page that I had open in my browser?)
<Syntux> boredandblogging, not as Ubuntu LoCo because of bureaucracy so we had to push some student to ask for it and then they invited us to do it
<Syntux> JanC, the first serious activity as a loco team was in March and before I was head hunting and inviting joluggers to join me
<boredandblogging> Syntux: will the LoCo be involved in maintenance of the lab or will the university do that?
<Syntux> boredandblogging, two university students will handle that plus we gave the lab coordinator a crash course in ubuntu
<Syntux> and if thing went out of control we don't mind going to fix it
<Syntux> we actually had a plan to sign a contract with the JU so we give them free maintenance if they let us use the lab as our primary lab for the LocO
<Syntux> but couple of weeks later we got a better offer from the Royal Scientific Society which include an office, lab and library space
<JanC> that's a lot you get  ã
<Syntux> and we still negotiating it with them http://temp.syntux.net/Concept_Letter.pdf as we don't want to sign on something way bigger than our capabilities
<Syntux> JanC, we made a good reputation out of the first course and lecture so people started to call asking for the same in their university
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  sorry I was on my cellphone. i was following. are you guys documenting your efforts anywhere?
<Syntux> we even got some calls from companies who wants to shift their IT infrastructure to Ubuntu
<Syntux> but our answer was no, yet we cannot help in that
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  sounds like a very interesting project and t would be a wonderful thing t share amonts LoCo teams
<Syntux> effie_jayx, other than the two links mentioned in the wiki?, no :-0
<Syntux> effie_jayx, already did in the LoCo contact mailing list :D
<Syntux> once we agreed with the RSS regarding the National Open Source office thingy we are planning to do some partnership or mediation between Canonical and local companies
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  great. sorry my bad, cellphone navigation not as cool
<boredandblogging> seems like Jordan is making good progress, but I think a couple more months of this good work is needed
<Syntux> surprisingly many companies want to shift (especially after activating copyrights laws in Jordan with MS squad hunting after pirates) but they don't know how or where to get the "Enterprise" support
<Syntux> effie_jayx, oh then here you go https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanTeam/ApprovalApplication https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JordanTeam
<popey> I am inclined to agree boredandblogging, it's dificult going on the say of one person, rather than a body of evidence (forums, launchpad, mailing lists etc), and this is obviously hard for Syntux, but a good goal to reach for.
<JanC> the fact that the first (public) activity was only in March means that the LoCoTeam doesn't exist for at least 4 months yet...
<Syntux> JanC, we applied when the condition was three months :-)
<Syntux> anyway I do understand that we are relatively new team and we still have long way
<popey> that's a minimum, not a maximum
<Syntux> I know :D
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx: thoughts?
<effie_jayx> I think a bit of sharing of projects in the mailing list is healthy
<Syntux> and by the way, I have sent an email to almost all of you guys asking you about the Concept letter regarding using RSS as our legal umbrella but never heard from you guys
<effie_jayx> however i do agree with JanC in the fact that the team should be a bit more of a team effort
<Syntux> effie_jayx, can we define "sharing of projects in the mailing lists"
<Syntux> we don't want to go in that agreement before we hear from the LCC or CC
<boredandblogging> what is RSS?
<Syntux> It is a team effort, I'm just a leader or more of coordinator with charisma to get people moving ;)
<Syntux> boredandblogging, Royal Scientific Society
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  right, then
<Syntux> boredandblogging, http://temp.syntux.net/Concept_Letter.pdf
<Pretto> hacktick, like what ???
<boredandblogging> Syntux: Jordan is starting out well, just keep going
<Syntux> the thing about LoCo team or any social activity in Jordan that people are not into such activities
<Syntux> so someone has to show them the how-to and give them the directions to do it
<Syntux> and this is what I do basically with them, but they do most of the tasks, not me.
<boredandblogging> Syntux: keep leading them
<boredandblogging> JanC, effie_jayx, popey: do we have consensus? Jordan should come back in a couple of months?
<Syntux> especially when it comes to getting inside universities which is something seriously hard in Jordan
<popey> boredandblogging: yes
<popey> with some more evidence of work done
<JanC> boredandblogging: I think that's better yes
<Syntux> popey, I have a link with photos and cert regarding every and each task we did
<Syntux> or I'm missing something here?
<popey> that's great, keep going
<JanC> they seem to do great things, just not for long enough
<Syntux> or what kind of evidences LCC is looking to see more than photos and certs?
<boredandblogging> Syntux: you just need more
<Syntux> yeah sure :-)
<boredandblogging> and at the rate you are doing them, we want you to come back soon
<JanC> Syntux: it should be okay to use an existing legal entity as a proxy for activities (many LoCoTeams already do that occasionally, when they have release parties and such)
<Syntux> of course we will
<Syntux> JanC, yeah of course but I really would appreciate it if you guys could have a look at the concept letter and give me a feedback on it, just in case.
<Syntux> another thing, can we have access to ubuntu-jo.com and mailing list before we become official team?
<boredandblogging> canonical probably own ubuntu-jo.org, don't know about .com
<Syntux> sorry, .org
<boredandblogging> but yes, once approved, you can use the domain
<Syntux> so we cannot get it before that?
<JanC> a mailing list you can already get IIRC?
<popey> yes JanC
<Syntux> JanC, yes but I do not have access to it as admin, I don't know how many or who's in it
<popey> Syntux: who is the admin?
<Syntux> popey, admin of the mailing list
<boredandblogging> Syntux: unfortunately, unapproved locos would spend too much time on the website than doing other things like install fests and workshops
<boredandblogging> shall we move on El Salvador?
<popey> Syntux: can you contact rmyeid+ubuntu@gmail.com?
<popey> they are the admin of the ubuntu-jo mailing list
<Syntux> well, then we will have to go with our second option which is Nashmi.org which means Ubuntu in Jordanian dialect.
<Syntux> popey, I can, but what for?
<popey> boredandblogging: surely they can get dns pointing to their own hosting
<popey> Syntux: to assist in administering the list
<Syntux> popey, ah ok.
<boredandblogging> popey: no, not before being approved
<boredandblogging> i went through this with Jono last year :-)
<popey> boredandblogging: is that a new rule? other non-approved teams do
<popey> ok
<boredandblogging> some locos got grandfathered in
<Syntux> it's ok we will go with nashmi.org on our prints.
<boredandblogging> before any decision was made
<boredandblogging> Syntux: good luck and come back soon
<Syntux> sure, thank you for your time.
<boredandblogging> anyone from El Salvador here?
<effie> el salvador?
<JanC> Syntux: you should be able to get ubuntu-jo.org within 2 months  ã
<hubuntu> celvin...
<nizarus> Hi Syntux jordan loco team is approved ?
<mantiena> helo all
<Pretto> hubuntu, the meeting for approval will be today huh?
<hubuntu> it's on right now
<boredandblogging> El Salvador?
<Pretto> hubuntu, but it says 9:00 pm here in Brazil
<hubuntu> don't ask me...
<JanC> celvin: ping
<celvin> good mornig
<RoAkSoAx> el tal celvin no ta kreo
<RoAkSoAx> tamare ya hablo
<celvin> sorrri
<RoAkSoAx> ups corry
<Pretto> The next meeting is scheduled for [WWW] 5-Jun-2008, 01:00 UTC (9pm Eastern Daylight Time on the 4th of June)
<RoAkSoAx> wrong channel
<celvin> XD
<boredandblogging> celvin: are you representing El Salvador?
<JanC> boredandblogging: he is
<boredandblogging> ah, ok, good
<celvin> boredandblogging, yes i am
<celvin> my english is not good
<celvin> but I understand XD
<Pretto> is there anyone from Americas RegionBoard?
<boredandblogging> celvin: are you doing Edubuntu for schools?
<Petrux> In Ecuador we're using edubuntu in too pooor schools
<celvin> boredandblogging, yes we are using it with LTSP
<RoAkSoAx> Pretto: the meeting for membership approval is tomorrow...
<hubuntu> Petrux not yet..
<Pretto> RoAkSoAx, ok... but today here in Brazil as i can see in the wiki
<JanC> folks, please chat elsewhere  ã
<JanC> celvin: what activities did you do and do you have planned for 2008 ?
<leogg> I want to cheer for El Salvador... they're an awesome team, very active and a great partner for the other teams in the area
<boredandblogging> will the team continue its involvement in FLISOL?
<celvin> Yes
 * hubuntu cheers for El Salvador too!
<celvin> and we are calling all linux communities to organize the SFD
<boredandblogging> like JanC, I would like to know what the plans are for 2008
<popey> celvin: what are you planning to do for SFD?
<boredandblogging> is there any timetable on the project with the Ministry of Education?
<leogg> we (.ni) are working together with.sv for the SFD
<leogg> we have plans to stream a couple of video conferences from .sv to .ni
<JanC> leogg: you are planning to do this for SFD 2008 together again?
<celvin> In El Salvador all the communities are dispersed
<celvin> and the Sfd will be an big event
<leogg> JanC, yes
<celvin> in wich every communitie will work togetther
<leogg> JanC, hopefully together with the rest of the central american communities
<boredandblogging> with the work El Salvador has done so far and with roadmap, +1 from me
<celvin> we are plannig put it in a Big virtual SF day
<celvin> FS day
<celvin> using video streamming
<JanC> nice
<celvin> http://softwarefreedomday.org/teams/ElSalvador
<leogg> we want also to share resources, have a common template for artwork
<leogg> the idea is to not reinvent the wheel :)
<JanC> +1 from me too
<celvin> XD
<boredandblogging> popey, effie_jayx: vote?
<popey> looks good to me
<popey> +1
<boredandblogging> congrats El Salvador
<effie_jayx> +
<effie_jayx> 1
<leogg> thank you guys!
<leogg> congrats celvin
<celvin> XD
<huats> good job El Salvador !
 * hubuntu dice: Que viva EL Salvador!
<boredandblogging> anyone from Peru here?
<effie_jayx> felicidades al salvador
<xander21c> congrats El Salvador :)
<viperhoot> felicidades !
<huats> nxvl ?
<nxvl> here
<huats> boredandblogging: nxvl is from Peru I think
<huats> :)
<viperhoot> here :D
<nxvl> :D
<johnc4510> congrats to El Salvador
<celvin> we are uniting and creating more and bigs communities
<nxvl> we are here, me, RoAkSoAx, xander21c  and viperhoot
<xander21c> here :)
<nxvl> we all are from the Peruvian Council
<Petrux> Felicidades compaÃ±eros del Salvador
<popey> having heard ALL about this from nxvl at UDS, it's a +1 for peru from me
<RoAkSoAx> i'm here
<boredandblogging> popey: lol
<RoAkSoAx> < Petrux> Felicidades compaÃ±eros del Salvador
<RoAkSoAx> 18:56 < popey> having heard ALL about this from nxvl at UDS, it's a +1 for peru from me
<RoAkSoAx> upsy sorry again... :(
<huats> popey: how many beer did he pay you ?
<huats> ;)
<popey> heh
<viperhoot> thanks popey :D
<boredandblogging> we can bribed cheaply :-P
<popey> speak for yourself!
<popey> I'm expensive ;)
<effie_jayx> lol
<RoAkSoAx> lol
<celvin> this 28, 29 and 30 of May, we was organized a bug event
<celvin> http://www.gnusal.org/galeria.htm
<celvin> around 600 peoples
<JanC> celvin: wow
<boredandblogging> how is the Peru LoCo outside of Lima?
 * nxvl HUGS popey 
<celvin> Thanks for all
<nxvl> really the LoCo is not all from lima
<celvin> I will go to sleep
<celvin> XD
<nxvl> on the council we are 5 persons
<RoAkSoAx> boredandblogging: very well. we have been present in Arequipa on teh FLISOL, viperhoot just added a link with a pic of me
<nxvl> only 2 of them from lima
<nxvl> we have RoAkSoAx on arequipa
<nxvl> also viperhoot in cajamarca
<RoAkSoAx> and we are planing on a series of events that i'll publish soon
<xander21c> also have some very volunteers outside Lima
<nxvl> and P3L|C4N0 on chiclayo
<JanC> nxvl & co.: I saw your list of CD distribution points, have you ever thought about using a Google maps-based website for that?
<boredandblogging> ok, I was asking because most of the team events listed on the applicaiton are in Lima
<boredandblogging> maybe I'm mistaken?
<nxvl> JanC: not really, but thanks for the idea!
<nxvl> JanC: we will try to :D
<JanC> nxvl: we have a web app for that with the Belgian Team  ;)
<JanC> (ask me after the meeting)
<xander21c> ï»¿boredandblogging: yes , but ww are looking forward to change that
<nxvl> boredandblogging: well, most of the events are in Lima in general, but for example i'm going next week to chibote to give a talk representing the ubuntu-pe team
<huats> JanC and nxvl we have one too in the French one...
 * hubuntu asks JanC to tell him all about that after the meeting too
<nxvl> and also will ping some people from there to have a stand
<huats> i'll be happy to help out
<boredandblogging> nxvl: ok, sounds good
<boredandblogging> peru gets +1 from me
<nxvl> also RoAkSoAx and viperhoot have participate on some events in his towns
<RoAkSoAx> boredandblogging: yes, most events are in Lima, but we have had participation on 1 event in Arequipa, which was INtroducing Hardy Heron done by me, and it is on the Approval Application
<xander21c> also Cusco ubuntu users are getting organize
<nxvl> and tumbes
<JanC> nxvl: how is the Quechua translations going?
<viperhoot> in Cajamarca too
<nxvl> there are photos somewhere i think
<JanC> I just saw the Ecuador team works on that too  ã
<viperhoot> JanC: in cajamarca, the most people speak quechua, I am learning to begin with the translations
<JanC> are you cooperating?
<nxvl> JanC: quechua is only speeked by non tecnological people, so it won't we (at least for now) a really productive effort
<nxvl> also we have 24 dialects of quechua
<nxvl> that are like 24 different laguages
<nxvl> languages
<RoAkSoAx> si pe
<JanC> I think non-technical people are the people that need native language software the most
<JanC> ?
<nxvl> JanC: non technical people as in non computer users people
<JanC> but of course, it might be difficult to translate everything with a small number of people...
<nxvl> not even cellphone users
<nxvl> that's what i tried to express, sorry
<xander21c> also their geographic location not and easy one
<nxvl> quechua speakers, most of them live in little far away places where there is in some cases not even electricity
<JanC> well, they aren't contaminated with MS then  ;)
<boredandblogging> lol
<RoAkSoAx> JanC: most people in Peru who have access to computers speak spanish, or i should say... everyone...
<nxvl> heh
<nxvl> yes
<JanC> make sure you are first to get them onto a computer  ;)
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx, JanC: vote?
<JanC> anyway, +1 from me
<nxvl> we will try!
<hubuntu> If you guys want to work on on the Quechua translation see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuQuechuaTranslators
<viperhoot> six million people speak quechua in Latin american :P
<effie_jayx> +1
<boredandblogging> congrats Peru
<xander21c> Peru is part of OLPC, that will hellp to get them into free software
<nxvl> thanx!
 * nxvl HUGS everyone
<effie_jayx> great work peru
<xander21c> Thanks  a lot :)
 * hubuntu felicita a PerÃº! Muy bien hermanos!
<boredandblogging> anyone from Arizona here?
<viperhoot> thanks !!
 * johnc4510 is here for the AZ Team!!
 * xander21c Beer for everyone
 * johnc4510 greets the council and offers this introduction to our team
<johnc4510> ...
<johnc4510> w00t!! We are the Ubuntu Arizona LoCo - The "Hottest" LoCo on Earth
<johnc4510> ...
<johnc4510> Our Application for Approval: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArizonaTeam/ApprovalApplication
 * br24 here for the AZ team
<nxvl> well se you later, need to go back to work
<FranciscoR> Congrats Peru!
<johnc4510> Our Team Wiki Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArizonaTeam
<JanC> hubuntu: yeah, -pe & -ec should work together on Quechua translations
<johnc4510> Our Team Launchpad Page: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-arizona
<nxvl> thanks for the proval!
<kjnelan> felicidades Peru
<johnc4510> ...
<johnc4510> Our most recent events were the Hardy release and Hardy installfest
<viperhoot> :D
<johnc4510> ...
<johnc4510> Upcoming events already in the planning stages include the Intrepid release and installfest and a statewide open source conference.
<johnc4510> ...
 * RoAkSoAx HUGS and THANKS everyone of you :D
<johnc4510> We hope you will find our team deserving of being an offical Ubuntu team, and we thank you for your consideration.
<boredandblogging> johnc4510: slow down there, lol
<tyche> YAY!!!  Arizona LoCo.  Go TEAM!
<slofgren> I'm here to cheer on the AZ team
<johnc4510> k
<kjnelan> Here for AZ Team!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<jsonder> go AZ
<gunxfight> woot
<DesertPenquin> woot Arizona
<gunxfight> az
<br24> yes for AZ!!
<paul928> ./me is here from the Arizona LoCo
<Syntux> HAHAHAH
<johnc4510> lol
<word> WOOT
<boredandblogging> wow
<Syntux> +10 for Arizona
<kjnelan> YEAH!!!!!!!!!
<johnc4510> boredandblogging: you want me to do that again  lol
<johnc4510> :)
<JanC> okay, I read about this on your mailing list  :P
<eddieftw> hey all, im here to cheer for the AZ team ;p
<eddieftw> see also my testimonial on the application page
<johnc4510> JanC: we have a great team
<slofgren> w00t for the Arizona team
<jsonder> we have fun
<johnc4510> :)
<br24> AZ team is awesome
<word> (mind-controlled voice) we...have...fun...
<soldats> another w00t for the AZ team couldnt live without it
<effie_jayx> how does trhe Arizona team contribute to the US loCo team project?
<JanC> johnc4510: it seems like you use the mailing list only for announcements, why?
<johnc4510> effie_jayx: we help any team who asks for our help
<johnc4510> JanC: most of our stuff is done in channel
<johnc4510> we have a very active channel
<effie_jayx> johnc4510,  any cshared projects with other loCo's in the country?
<johnc4510> not yet
<soldats> effie_jayx: also if we are able to meet people in other states we can introduce them to irc and LoCo teams and prepare them for distributing Ubuntu
<JanC> yeah, I saw the IRC meeting logs had a lot of people participating
<johnc4510> we are thinking about a co project with new mexico maybe
<boredandblogging> with some exceptions, the US Teams haven't been good at colloboration
<johnc4510> agreed
<johnc4510> we need more interaction between teams
<boredandblogging> johnc4510: is BarCamp the big event for 2008?
<johnc4510> boredandblogging: yes
<effie_jayx> soldats, right
<johnc4510> it is going to be the biggest thing we've done
<johnc4510> and we are trying to include the state lugs
<JanC> how is cooperation with LUGs going until now?
<johnc4510> we believe coordination with the lugs is a big deal
<johnc4510> good so far, we don't have a lot of active lugs but
<johnc4510> the ones out there are excited about co hosting events
<jsonder> I'm conducting a Linux ;sig in Green Valley AZ right now!
<johnc4510> they see the good things that might come of it
<boredandblogging> the ASU college lug is mentioned, have you been in touch with other schools?
<boredandblogging> johnc4510: ^^
<johnc4510> i've sent email to U of A   but no response yet
<johnc4510> boredandblogging: ^^
<johnc4510> we do have one member in touch with the U of A linux forum at this point
<boredandblogging> johnc4510: is AZ going to have a course for teaching the server?
<darkbalder> saludos
<johnc4510> we have one member who is an IT specialists and we hope to have intructions on server during meetings
<johnc4510> like a mysqal, or file server instructional
<JanC> johnc4510: do you have other plans with the new server?  (I mean, it has more power than you need for the current LoCoTeam sites I think ;) )
<boredandblogging> lol
<johnc4510> JanC: agreed, my plan is to implement as we go, web blogs, email hosting  etc
<johnc4510> and then explain as we go to the loco
<johnc4510> sort of a do it one step at a time and instruct as we go
<johnc4510> it was a great donation to the team
<boredandblogging> think the LUG cooperation is great and AZ should keep pushing that
<johnc4510> kk
<johnc4510> we like that too
<boredandblogging> +1 from me
<JanC> it might be a way to help/cooperate with another LoCoTeam that isn't as "rich" as you  ;)
<johnc4510> JanC: agreed, i had even thought of offering space to the lugs if they need it
<boredandblogging> JanC: great point
<JanC> +1 too btw
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx, popey: vote?
<effie_jayx> +1
<effie_jayx> sounds ike they have been working hard
<popey> easy +1
<boredandblogging> congrats Arizona
<kjnelan> WOOOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<tyche> Yeeeeeeeee-Haaaaaaaw!!!!!
<slofgren> w00t for the Arizona team
<johnc4510> w00t   thx council
<gunxfight> ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<slofgren> thx guys
<effie_jayx> though it would be cool to have al 4 state loco's working on a project :
<FrankJSrC> Congrats Arizona
<br24> oh yeah!!!!!
<johnc4510> effie_jayx: it would
<paul928> thx council
<eddieftw> congrats arizona
<popey> I'd like to hear more about the lug cooperation on the locoteams list
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx, JanC, popey you guys want to keep going? our hour is long over
<br24> thx to the council
<johnc4510> thx eddieftw
<boredandblogging> don't think there is anything else scheduled for a while
<popey> boredandblogging: i can't, I need to bath my daughter
 * word does a backflip...in his computer chair..
<JanC> boredandblogging: I can go on
<effie_jayx> hehe keep on rocking arizona
 * br24 is dancing with himself
<jsonder> why alone?
<br24> had Billy Idol in my dream last night
<word> jsonder: maybe it falls under the "sometimes you have to talk to yourself to have an intelligent conversation" rule :P
<jsonder> hahahaha
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx: can you go on longer?
<johnc4510> jsonder: thx
<effie_jayx> boredandblogging,  syre
<boredandblogging> Lithuania here?
<Styxas> Lithuania is here! me, mantiena and sirex`
<sirex`> one here
<mantiena> yea
<boredandblogging> the experience section on the Lithuania application lacks detail
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 01:00 UTC: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team
<Styxas> maybe we can provide them now :)
<sirex`> Hm, whot details is needed more?
<boredandblogging> there is only one event listed, no specific press
<JanC> yeah, and I don't understand the native language site  ;)
<boredandblogging> links or references to newspapers
<JanC> so can't find anything there
<sirex`> ubucon website: ubucon.lt
<boredandblogging> sirex`: I can't read that, can you provide more information on the approval application?
<JanC> sirex`: what other events did you do ?
<Styxas> not long ago there was another installfest in Kaunas. Ubucon was the bigges so we mentioned it on Applications others are usually small - max 10-15 attendants
<boredandblogging> i'd recommend taking a look at other approval applications
<boredandblogging> and providing more information
<JanC> what we want to see is that you have been doing things for some time, not only 1 big event
<JanC> although having such a big event is nice of course
<sirex`> First registered user in ubuntu.lt: http://www.ubuntu.lt/render/User;e,about;uid,1
<sirex`> Date is: 2005.07.12 13:36
<JanC> do you have announcement/reports for past events on your site?
<JanC> maybe a search term we can use to find them?  ã
<sirex`> JanC: you can try to enter 'meet' in our ubuntu.lt web site search box at the top.
<sirex`> Most of the events are announced and organized there.
<sirex`> Maybe Styxas knows better how to filter all list of our meeting in ubuntu.lt, becous he is admin of that site.
<Styxas> http://www.ubuntu.lt/render/News;nid,345 announcement for installfest in Kaunas
<sirex`> One good photo form 2006 meeting: http://www.ubuntu.lt/meet-07-22/img_7370.jpg
<Styxas> there was a site crash an posts about ubuntu.lt community were gone. just some of them are still there: http://www.ubuntu.lt/render/News;category,7
<JanC> I hope you make backups now?  ;)
<mantiena> ;)
<mantiena> we follow Linus' guidelines
<Styxas> JanC,  oh yes we do :)
<boredandblogging> think Lithuania should come back to the next meeting with more filled out approval application
<Styxas> boredandblogging, understood... we will fix it :)
<mantiena> Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror itÂ ;)  Torvalds, Linus (1996-07-20). Post to linux.dev.kernel newsgroup. Retrieved on 2006-08-28.
<boredandblogging> Styxas: it makes it easier for us to approve you :-)
<boredandblogging> JanC, effie_jayx what do you guys think?
<JanC> boredandblogging: it would make it easier indeed
<effie_jayx> boredandblogging,  I think they have lot's to tell us good projects
<effie_jayx> but I also agree on geting stuff ready will defnetely help us get the idea on what the loco has done
<Styxas> boredandblogging, i understand you. I just started filling the application after last EMEA meeting and maybe had too little time to prepare it well. if you want - we can wait for the next meeting, or answer all your questions now
<effie_jayx> boredandblogging,  does that make sence?
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx: yes
<effie_jayx> sense
<boredandblogging> Styxas: I'll remove Lithuania from the LoCoCouncilAgenda, please add yourself back when ready
<sirex`> Most of the things are added to the application, bet maybe links to all sources are missing.
<Styxas> boredandblogging, ok
<boredandblogging> at this point, I have to leave
<hubuntu> noooooooooooooooo
 * hubuntu says: sorry...
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx, JanC shall we end today's meeting?
<leogg> boredandblogging, please don't go :)
<leogg> ecuador is up next
<Syntux> what are the chances to discuss ubuntu-arabic proposal ?
<JanC> boredandblogging: we'll have to, if you can't stay...
<effie_jayx> boredandblogging,  I am cool with one more
<JanC> Syntux: I think it's a great idea
<virgiman> yay
<boredandblogging> lol, ok, one more
<hubuntu> good...
<palichis> jaYU
<Syntux> JanC, lovely
<boredandblogging> Ecuador?
<alex-ec> cool people
<virgiman> here!!!
<celvin> Ecuador
<hubuntu> here!
<alex-ec> present
<estebandid0> ywa
<FrankJSrC> Ecuador is here... Arriba Ecuador!!!
<estebandid0> yes
<palichis> HERE
<virgiman> here again
<hubuntu> ok
<palichis> arriba
<boredandblogging> lol, its like Arizona all over again
<estebandid0> we can do it
<hubuntu> ;)
 * ecubuntu here Ecuador
<celvin> Ecuador rules!
<leogg> Ecuador rulez!
<Petrux> Arriba EC
<hubuntu> well the Application is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EcuadorTeam/ApprovalApplication
<celvin> XD
<FrankJSrC> Vamos Ecuador!!! Si se puede!
<hacktick> somewone from brazil here? this LoCo is so chaotic...
<hacktick> -w
<hubuntu> for events info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EcuadorTeam/ConferenceAppearances
<effie_jayx> boredandblogging,  jejejejeje
 * magicfab wanted to cheer for Ecuador too but the crowd wouldn't let him
<effie_jayx> magicfab,  jeje
<boredandblogging> hehe
<boredandblogging> another FLISOL participant, excellent
<MagicFab> boredandblogging, if you go you will miss the chaos :)
<virgiman> chaos is good
<boredandblogging> MagicFab: lol, don't want to miss all the fun!
<hubuntu> yes, the country organizer is here. He's part of the team
<effie_jayx> hubuntu, what has been the element that can describe Ubuntu Ecuador as a active participant in the project?
<hubuntu> you will have to rephrase that one
<hubuntu> effie_jayx,
<hubuntu> of the Ubuntu Project?
<boredandblogging> Ecuador does a lot of big events, has there been smaller local events?
<JanC> hubuntu: yes
<hacktick> virgiman: definetly not.
<hubuntu> well, we have concentrated in been visible in the big events
<hubuntu> and act locally with LUG and throug CD distribution points
<hubuntu> the big events do happen in many places, not just in the main cities
<hubuntu> and we have mentored the organization of these big events in new locations, like the FLISOL in Zamora-Chinchipe
<Petrux> and Quito
<hubuntu> so in a way, we have ahd small events as part of the big event umbrella
<MagicFab> If I may.. the advocacy content and translations the team has produced (and keeps leading) are a huge step ahead and fills a big gap other latin teams had missed, while cooperating. Ubuntu-ec rocks!
<effie_jayx> MagicFab, righ on
<effie_jayx> hubuntu,  I do think your flisol was amonts the best
<hubuntu> thanks Petrux
<effie_jayx> s/amonts/amongst
<hubuntu> he organized the event nationally
 * effie_jayx has duffy fingers today
<hubuntu> I just did some Ubuntu marketing in the dark (live in oslo, so I was not there, as in person)
<leogg> I agree with MagicFab, the translation work of the ubuntu-ec team is awesome!
<hubuntu> we work with the Ubuntu Weekly News translation every week
 * ecubuntu me to on lugradio usa (marketing in the dark)
<JanC> MagicFab: why isn't the documentation stuff listed on the approval page ?  ã
<boredandblogging> hubuntu: I definitely appreciate the UWN work
<hubuntu> I appreciate your boredandblogging
<hubuntu> you do it, we just translate it ;)
<hubuntu> not only you, but you get the idea...
<effie_jayx> hubuntu,  what are you planning for reaching ut to school?
<Belutz> sorry to interrupt, what meeting is it right now?
<boredandblogging> JanC: think it falls under the 2nd bullet point in experience summary
<hubuntu> We are planning on organized ubuntec
<MagicFab> JanC, it is -> http://www.ubuntu.ec/ is what I was referring to.
<hubuntu> which will be reaching out to schools
<hubuntu> showing Ubuntu goodness
<effie_jayx> hubuntu, ubuntec being an event? sounds interesting
<hubuntu> and presenting Ubuntu in the server, the LoCo  among other things
<estebandid0> effie_jayx: we work very close with the government in Ecuador, because we have now a decree NO. 1014 that declares a state policy the use of Free Software
<MagicFab> JanC, the ubuntu.ec site has many pieces that the very beginners (in spanish) could not get in their language. Lots of that will be reused.
<effie_jayx> estebandid0, pretty much like decree 3390 in venezuela
<hubuntu> estebandid0, is the IT advisor of the president, and an early member of the team
<Petrux> In educations. werw planning a Congres of SL and edubuntu
<boredandblogging> hubuntu: very nice!
<estebandid0> so the universities right now have received a notification that they have to teach on their courses Free Software
<effie_jayx> hubuntu, wow, very good
<boredandblogging> Ecuador, +1 from me
<estebandid0> effie_jayx: yeah it is something similiar to the venezuela
<effie_jayx> the efforst seem great.. lot's of advocacy and lot's to show and tell
<hubuntu> and lots more to come
<effie_jayx> Ecuador has been an examplo of what a great latin american LoCo should be
<estebandid0> effie_jayx:  but we have all the support from the president of ecuadro
<hubuntu> we have just organized the team in 5 different working groups
<estebandid0> ecuador
<palichis> In Cuenca to give training in schools with eduubuntu
<effie_jayx> estebandid0,  that's fantastic
<hubuntu> each with their own responsability areas and tasks
<Petrux> In Quito we have a new propjects to use edubuntu in the Educations Minitery and Universities
<hubuntu> virgiman, something going on in Guayaquil as well?
<Invitado> Hola
<hubuntu> HOla Invitado, solo InglÃ©s ;)
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx, JanC: think we can vote on Ecuador
<estebandid0> effie_jayx: our president believes in free software, now we have the decree and the undersecretary of informatics that their main objective is to promote free software to the state
<Invitado> vaya.. que excluyente
<Invitado> !!!!!
<boredandblogging> estebandid0: thats superb
<hubuntu> no Invitado estÃ¡ redirigido a otro canal... regresa en 15 minutos, disculpa la molestia
<MagicFab> Invitado, es una reuniÃ³n - si necesita ayuda en espaÃ±ol por favor vaya a #ubuntu-ec, #ubuntu-co o #ubuntu-es
<JanC> yes, +1 from me
<estebandid0> rafael-ec: is the national director of free software in Ecuador he is around here
<hubuntu> MagicFab, you were right about the irc thing...
<hubuntu> something to say about our work rafael-ec ?
<effie_jayx> +1 from me
<MagicFab> hubuntu, told you :)
<effie_jayx> good work Ecuadro ...
<boredandblogging> Ecuador, amazing work!
<boredandblogging> congrats
<hubuntu> :)
<estebandid0> tks boredandblogging
<palichis> ;)
<FrankJSrC> Thanks!!!! :)
<JanC> heh, when will the president of Ecuador show up to cheer?  :-P
<hubuntu> thx
 * MagicFab pour Aguardiente to all - fuerza LatAm :)
<leogg> felicidades Ecuador!!!
<MagicFab> pours*
 * hubuntu bebe!
<effie_jayx> popey, ?
<estebandid0> JanC: i dont understand ur question
<effie_jayx> anyone else not votes?
<effie_jayx> my fingers are terrible tday
<JanC> estebandid0: well, you are 2 peopel who work for the government here?  ã
<rafael-ec> here is the video where the presidnete invites to use free software
<rafael-ec> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy5yAk4dYOk
<ecubuntu> i see effie_jayx
<hubuntu> ok.. now I have to get my daughter into bed and drink beer with my giorlfriend afterwards! LET'S CEÃLEBRATE
<boredandblogging> popey is away, but we have 3 +1, so Ecuador is good
<estebandid0> yes me and rafael-ec
<rafael-ec> here the translation to several languages
<rafael-ec> http://www.asle.ec/wiki/doku.php/saludo_correa
<estebandid0> JanC: yes rafael-ec and me
<estebandid0> JanC: I am the IT Advisor from the President and rafael-ec is the National DIrector of Free SOftware
<rafael-ec> I am Rafael Bonifaz free software director
<MagicFab> Ubuntu-Ec ROCKS :) if anyone thinks -ec has banded with the rest of latin teams... it's because they have :D
<JanC> estebandid0: I was just joking, like, will the rest of the government show up too  ;-)
<hubuntu> 'ok... Thanks everyone
<hubuntu> MIL GRACIAS UBUNTER@S
<FrankJSrC> Thanks to you hubuntu
<estebandid0> JanC: rafael-ec and me did the meeting between our president and Stallman
<effie_jayx> MagicFab,  agree hubuntu  has been a great motivator and iuntegrator... great catalist
<alex-ec> thanks a bunch people
<Petrux> Some Ministeries are using ubuntu in their desktops like Min of Deportes and Culture
<JanC> nice
<hubuntu> Ubuntu is eating uip market share in Ecuador.. And we are just getting started :)
<hubuntu> Let's meet on one year to see our progress ;)
<effie_jayx> have all voted then?
<hubuntu> I really have to go... Thanks for staying boredandblogging
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx: yep
<effie_jayx> have we all voted, then?
<JanC> effie_jayx: we're only three left
<effie_jayx> cool
<boredandblogging> hubuntu: no problem
<MagicFab> effie_jayx, yes
<effie_jayx> congrats hubuntu and extend those to the whole team for such great work
 * ecubuntu ecuador we can do it :P
<hubuntu> It's the group who deserve congrats, I'm just sitting in Oslo editing some wiki pages ;)
<ecubuntu> thank you effie_jayx
<hubuntu> THEY do the work
<hubuntu> I'm just the contact
<FrankJSrC> Thank you hubuntu and council
<Syntux> lovely, can we discuss the agenda now ? :D
<effie_jayx> boredandblogging, shall we?
<boredandblogging> sure, I have about 15 minutes
<effie_jayx> ok
<effie_jayx> Syntux, let's do it
<JanC> Syntux: about the Arabic thing, did you also contact the other Arabic speaking LoCoTeams yet?
<Syntux> JanC, yes and as documented in the /talk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncilAgenda/talk
<Syntux> through their forums and mailing lists
<JanC> that's not all of them, right?
<Syntux> JanC, that's all of them or at least those with forums and/or mailing list
<JanC> well, at least tehre are other countries where people speak Arabic?
<huayra> ahora si me voy dew acÃ¡ tb
<Syntux> JanC, yeah we are talking about 23 country with around 250million human being
<udienz-> wew
<Syntux> yes
<JanC> like Morocco, Algeria, Tunesia, ... don't they have LoCoTeams ?
<Syntux> Tunesia do have one but not Algeria and Morocco
<Petrux> Ese es mi Pais, mi Pais Ecuador del Alma
<Syntux> nizarus, is the team leader of Tunisia and he's here now
<Invitado> ?
<Syntux> alsadi, is one of the most active translators, developers in the region and he's here now too
<alsadi> Hi
<effie_jayx> Syntux, I think the idea makes sense
<Syntux> effie_jayx, I guess so, having one interface for Arabic users is good.
<boredandblogging> yeah, I agree
<Syntux> LoCo teams cannot solve the problem because not all arab locos prefer to use arabic, like Jordan team prefer English and the Lebanese prefer French
<alsadi> yes, we (Arabic speaking people) have same interests, and having a common group will make things easier
<Syntux> on the other side there are plenty of LoCo members interested in supporting people in Arabic
<Syntux> so having arabic team would solve the problem.
<alsadi> I agree
<JanC> FWIW: as all languages spoken in Belgium (Dutch, French & German) are also spoken in other countries, we already point users to those respective forums
<JanC> so this is quite similar
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  do you have an estimate of users you'll be helping?
<effie_jayx> just vague numbers
<Syntux> true but since the Ubuntu Arabic community is small having one interface would be for its own good
<Syntux> and it will help in increasing the number of people in the community
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  right, true... That would realy help boost adoption
<Syntux> for example, if someone asked in Arabic in Jordan or lebanese or loco mailing list, we might not answer to be honest
<Syntux> but having one place for people interested in helping in that language would make it easier to Arabic community and hopefully increase it
<JanC> Syntux: like, I'm a member of both the Belgian (country) & Dutch (language) team -- you would be members of both Jordanian (country) & Arabic (language) team
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  I like the idea, however it would be god to have commitment from all teams involved so that it is not your team and alsadi 's and other listed. since it has to be a structure that can be sustainable long after you and him are gone
<alsadi> ubuntu says Linux for humans not for hackers (who know three of more human languages), we need to speak  to people in their native language
<Syntux> JanC, yeah and this is why I'm proposing for this team, the other arabic teams that exists in the community focus on translation not support.
<effie_jayx> alsadi,  it is one of the ubuntu promises yes...
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  but they will offer a heloping hand in your initiative riught?
<Syntux> effie_jayx, of course, we have received some good feedback from all arabic LoCo members else we wouldn't bothering you guys in this proposal
<effie_jayx> Syntux, perfect
<Syntux> effie_jayx, yes.
<boredandblogging> Syntux: whats the next step to take?
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  I say the proposal needs a bit of shaping up. but the idea makes perfect sense. and it is clear that your intentions is to integrate support work
<Syntux> boredandblogging, establishing forum, mailing list and ubuntu-arabic.org and spread the word about it
<Syntux> boredandblogging, and we already talked with some of the large arabic linux communities to work with them
<boredandblogging> Syntux: maybe also contact some other similar teams and see what they would recommend?
<Syntux> boredandblogging, that would be an idea
<udienz-> Syntux: what's difference between Ubuntume community and ubuntu-arabic
<JanC> I guess a forum would be good to start with giving support?
<persia> udienz-: language and religion tend not to map well
<Syntux> udienz-, UbuntuME is the Muslims Edition of Ubuntu and it has nothing to do with the language
<Syntux> udienz-, they do have packages for religious human beings ;)
<JanC> not all muslims speak Arabic, e.g. some speak Persian  ;)
<persia> Some speak Flemish
<Syntux> true, and UbuntuME main focus is on packing religious apps not support or anything
<Syntux> our main focus is support not apps nor translation
<boredandblogging> Syntux: so maybe come up with a formal document stating purpose, and what needs to be done?
<JanC> persia: yes, I know several who do (although they also speak Arabic mostly)
<udienz-> hmm... ic... many member at ubuntume speak using arabic but not all member using arabic (me too)
<alsadi> as a member of UbuntuME, it's multi lingual which ranges from English (main), German (DE), ..., and even ordo
<Syntux> boredandblogging, I don't mind working more on the proposal if we have definition of "formal document" :D
<udienz-> sorry anot all using arabic
<Syntux> actually I'm not that good at paper work hehe
<JanC> and some people speaking arabic might not be muslims either
<Syntux> right
<udienz-> JanC: perfect
<boredandblogging> Syntux: yes, whatever you want to call it, to make sure everyone is discussing the same thing
<alsadi> let the numbers speacks, 20% of Muslism speacks Arabic, 96%  of arabs are Muslims
<effie_jayx> ok
<Syntux> there is already some ubuntu arabic sites http://www.arubuntu.org/ http://ubuntu.byethost13.com/ http://ubuntustory.com/ar and we just want to make it one work under Ubuntu Community umbrella  for better reach
<udienz-> yup. indonesian have 200Million pepple and 80% Muslim but 10 % speak arabic
<Syntux> boredandblogging, yeah sure, I was able to get alsadi and nizarus but nizarus (Tunisian LoCo leader) seems to be sleeping now hehe
<Syntux> so basically we just need the permission to use ubuntu-arabic.org, a mailing list and a forum.
<alsadi> yes ï»¿indonesia is not an arabic country,
<Syntux> and then we can start reporting our activities on monthly basis
<udienz-> right
<alsadi> I must leave, excuse me
<Syntux> alsadi, thanks for coming.
<Syntux> ex-squeezed :D
<Syntux> so that's it guys
<Syntux> if forumMathew was here he would be able to verify the links of discussion about it, provided in the /talk
<effie_jayx> ok
<effie_jayx> ok
<Syntux> ok
<Syntux> hehe
<effie_jayx> I say we have the document down and teams participating? we can have a final quick look
<boredandblogging> agreed
<effie_jayx> and then we cwill have the final say about the team
<effie_jayx> It all looks resonable
<Syntux> wait wait
<Syntux> Teams will NOT participate
<Syntux> but individual members of the teams
<JanC> Syntux: I think teams should participate
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  so do i
<Syntux> but not all teams interested in supporting people in aRabic
<Syntux> Arabic*
<JanC> as in providing links to the site etc.
<boredandblogging> this is why we should have a doc ;-)
<Syntux> well, that's easy but first they have to have a website for themselves :D
<effie_jayx> Syntux, right, but  think teams should be able to be a apart of it
<Syntux> effie_jayx, of course, they are able but it's up to them
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  exactly
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  i would expect a bit more depth on the kind of support and the resources needed
<Syntux> yet we don't have any approved LoCo team btw
<JanC> Syntux: participate also means that teams won't duplicate efforts, etc.
<Syntux> of course\
<Syntux> Ok, can we have a mailing list so we can start discussing the project instead of using google groups.
<effie_jayx> Syntux, i think all you need is to ptresent this document and then we can approve resources ;)
<Syntux> effie_jayx, I agree but presenting an official document would require interacting with all those interested to work on it
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  you are free to contact Loco contact in the loco-contact maling list to gather more work
<Syntux> and having an ubuntu mailing list would encourage many people to join us
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  right but it wouldrequiere usto have you already considered a team :S
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  to give you a cliue the conucil did not havea mailing list long after it had it's first meeting
<Syntux> yeah but that means having to send the email to like 6 mailing lists and then come up with an artificial way to sync the discussion.
<JanC> effie_jayx: teams don't have to be approved to get a list
<JanC> Syntux: you have Google Groups set up already though?
<effie_jayx> JanC, true, but it does help if we put in a word for the list to happen
<JanC> with 8 members?
<Syntux> JanC, yup created it two days ago.  http://groups.google.com/group/ubuntu-arabic
<Syntux> yes
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  do you think itwould help having a new list (considering you have to settle and all ) and then presenting this dc?
<Syntux> definitely  it will help
<Syntux> and anyway, we are not asking to get approved now or in the coming six months
<effie_jayx> ok
<boredandblogging> we have not finished figuring out the process of getting resources yet
<Syntux> all we are asking for is to get a mailing list and permission to use ubuntu domain as in wiki, irc channel and stuff like that
<effie_jayx> boredandblogging,  thatis also true
<boredandblogging> so the mailing list may take some time
<effie_jayx> popey was in charge of that
<effie_jayx> boredandblogging, we can find outad get in touch then with Syntux
<boredandblogging> yeah
<Syntux> sorry, didn't get it ?
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  do you agree with this?
<JanC> Syntux: using the domain is okay as long as you follow this policy: http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
<Syntux> JanC, great.
<Syntux> effie_jayx, I didn't get it
<Syntux> <effie_jayx> boredandblogging, we can find outad get in touch then with Syntux
<Syntux> find out about what ?
<boredandblogging> Syntux: we'll try to figure out how to get the mailing list, but it may take some time
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  we will get in touch twith the man that helps us with the mailing lists and we wil find out the resource request and we shall get in touch with you through email
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  about setting up the mailing list
<effie_jayx> Syntux,  does that make sense?
<Syntux> lovely
<juliux> hi
 * juliux is still at work
<effie_jayx> my keyboard abilities suck today
<Syntux> hi juliux
<juliux> topic atm?
<effie_jayx> well
<effie_jayx> gotta get going
<Syntux> juliux, Ubuntu-Arabic team proposal.
<effie_jayx> boredandblogging,  you do the minute
<effie_jayx> or i do?
<boredandblogging> umm, don't remember
<Syntux> and btw I have already contact Jorge for the mailing list, not sure if that would cause any of diplomatic conflict :D
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx: I can do this one
<boredandblogging> Syntux: we'll figure it out
 * juliux has no rt account
<Syntux> splendid :-)
<JanC> juliux: you don't?
<boredandblogging> ok, so we are done with ubuntu-arabic for now?
<juliux> JanC: i am still waiting for one
<JanC> juliux: I got one recently
<Syntux> I guess so.
<juliux> JanC: ok then i will ping elmo agian
<juliux> again
<JanC> juliux: although I had to ask them to send again (they used the wrong OpenPGP key to send me the info first time ;) )
<boredandblogging> no doctormo? think he wanted to discuss ccHost
<Invitado> Hola disculpen, como puedo regresar al chat ubunto ecuador?
<juliux> Invitado: english pls;)
<boredandblogging> ok, does that cover everything for the meeting?
<JanC> Invitado: /join #ubuntu-ec
<JanC> (if that's what you were asking ;) )
<boredandblogging> nothing like a 3 hour meeting!
<juliux> long time meeting;)
<Syntux> yeah it was long one
<JanC> btw: I think ccHost sucks  ;)
<juliux> boredandblogging: next meeting in two weeks? or 4 weeks?
<Syntux> long and useful
<JanC> or to be more precise: it's user interface is bad IMHO
<boredandblogging> should we try 2 weeks? I don't want to be in another 3 hour meeting
<JanC> boredandblogging: sounds like a good idea  ã
<juliux> boredandblogging: sounds good for me
<boredandblogging> let me look at the fridge calendar
<juliux> yeah
<Syntux> JanC, how do print this ã? enlighten me please
<boredandblogging> effie_jayx, JanC, juliux, popey June 18th, 16:00 UTC?
<JanC> Syntux: it's a Japanese character, just look through the Character table application in Ubuntu ã
<JanC> boredandblogging: a bit later than 16:00 UTC is easier for me, but maybe not for other people...
<boredandblogging> we don't have to decide right now
<Syntux> I see ã
<JanC> but I should be able to get home in time or shortly after 16:00 UTC
<juliux> lets discuss the next meeting time at the mailinglist
<boredandblogging> juliux: agreed
<juliux> so popey can also submit his time;9
<JanC> I guess it's no problem if I arrive 10-15 minutes late  ;-)
<boredandblogging> with that, I really have to go, great meeting everyone!
<JanC> hehe, bye
<Syntux> me 2, take me with you boredandblogging
<juliux> thanks for the meeting
 * juliux hope he has time next meeting
<popey> hmm?
<popey> boredandblogging: ok
<udienz-> what meeting is it right now?
<kirkland> @now
<ubottu> kirkland: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 04 2008, 20:00:01 - Next meeting: Server Team in 59 minutes
<zul> thats a bit wacky
 * nijaba waves
<nijaba> @schedule
<ubottu> nijaba: Schedule for Etc/UTC: 04 Jun 21:00:  Server Team | 04 Jun 22:00: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 01:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 13:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00: Marketing Team
<lukehasnoname> @schedule chicago
<ubottu> lukehasnoname: Schedule for America/Chicago: 04 Jun 16:00:  Server Team | 04 Jun 17:00: Kubuntu Team | 04 Jun 20:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 08:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 15:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 16:00: Marketing Team
<lukehasnoname> @now
<ubottu> lukehasnoname: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 04 2008, 20:33:58 - Next meeting: Server Team in 26 minutes
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 04 Jun 22:00 UTC: Kubuntu Team | 05 Jun 01:00 UTC: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team
<lukehasnoname> the meeting's about to start! omgomgomgomgomgomgomg
<Pretto> lukehasnoname, meeting for what?
<lukehasnoname> server
<owh> lukehasnoname: What if you had a meeting an no-one came :)
<lukehasnoname> <wit>
<kirkland> hello all
<jdstrand> o/
 * lukehasnoname waves
<sommer> yo
<mathiaz> hello folks !
<owh> Salutations
<zul> jambo
<soren> o/
<owh> kirkland: Thanks for adding the patch to that bug.
<Koon> \o/
 * nealmcb has even seen mootbot working recently
<kirkland> owh: no problem.  i merged lsb for intrepid...  it should be uploaded by a sponsor today/tomorrow
<soren> mathiaz: Mootbot is back, by the way.
<mathiaz> all right - let's get started
<mathiaz> soren: yeah - I noticed - but it may not work
<nijaba> o/
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:02. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * nealmcb cheers
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting#preview
<mathiaz> Last meeting notes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080528
<soren> mathiaz: Er, yeah, that's what I meant. It now works. It's been around for a few weeks, but they fixed it during last night's TB meeting.
<mathiaz> I don't see any outstanding action points from last meeting
 * nealmcb cheers for Seeker`
<Seeker`> nijaba: :)
<Seeker`> sorry, nealmcb :D
<Seeker`> Mootbot logs wont be instantly accessible due to webhost problems
<nealmcb> Seeker`: nijaba deserves some smiles also
<Seeker`> heh
<mathiaz> So let's move on to the next topic
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] #
<MootBot> New Topic:  #
<mathiaz> State of the specifications.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] State of the specifications.
<MootBot> New Topic:  State of the specifications.
<lukehasnoname> haha
<Seeker`> if you send an email to scribes@cjo20.net after the meeting with the contact details of someone, I'll try to get the logs to you
<soren> :)
<mathiaz> so the deadline for specification writing is tomorrow
<mathiaz> Spec approver should be set to dendrobates
<mathiaz> and if ubuntu-server could be subscribed, it will also help.
<ScottK> Is there a handy public list of what's already written?
<mathiaz> Once they're approved we can put them on the ServerTeam Roadmap
<mathiaz> ScottK: not really - the closest would be https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/
 * soren sneaks onto launchpad and registers at least one spec which he forgot.. :(
<mathiaz> this is why subscribing ubuntu-server to the blueprint would help
 * soren hopes noone will notice
<mathiaz> but it's still a bit of a mess
<kirkland> mathiaz: ScottK: perhaps those involving dendrobates?  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/~dendrobates
<dendrobates> don't worry it will be all cleaned up.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: any opinion on this ? as you're the approver
 * ScottK wants to make sure he can check and see if his pet project is missing/needing more work.
<mathiaz> ScottK: have you written up about the mail changes you'd talked about at UDS ?
<ScottK> No.
<dendrobates> we will have a final list of things that we are targeting for intrepid next week.
 * ScottK was hoping someone else had.
<mathiaz> ScottK: I remember talking with ivoks about some changes we'd like to make
<dendrobates> also the specs do not have to be perfect we can fix them.
<mathiaz> ScottK: and it seems that you had the same ideas
<ScottK> And siretart had some excellent suggestions on mechanizing the process.
<dendrobates> And there will be a few that magically apear at the last minute after some internal discussions.
<nealmcb> dendrobates: will we be able to see blueprints for server for each release (e.g. review hardy server-related specs, and also see intrepid), or only some notion of "current" ones?
<Koon> mathiaz: since I don't have one to write, I'll proofread the already published tomorrow morning
<mathiaz> Koon: aren't you supposed to be on the J2EE spec ?
 * nealmcb still wants to be able to see intreped blueprints on the intrepid page, as well as server-related blueprints
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I'm not sure that LP can do that
<dendrobates> I am not a master at launchpad, for it's ways are mysterious.
<Koon> mathiaz: dendrobates said he would handle this one... and we don't really have a solution to propose at that point ?
<Koon> dendrobates: or did I miss something ?
 * nealmcb looks at an empty page at https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-intrepid - sigh
<mathiaz> nealmcb: that's over IIRC
<dendrobates> nealmcb: you don't have the magic glasses that make text appear?
<nealmcb> I'm just suggesting that having easier collaboration based on being able to track specs in different ways would be to our benefit....
<mathiaz> anyway - once we have a list of spec, I'll add them to the ServerTeam Roadmap so that we can discuss the progress during the ServerTeam meeting
<mathiaz> Let's move to the next topic
<dendrobates> nealmcb: agreed
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] #
<mathiaz> Discussion about openldap 2.4.9 for 8.04.1.
<MootBot> New Topic:  #
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Discussion about openldap 2.4.9 for 8.04.1.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discussion about openldap 2.4.9 for 8.04.1.
<nealmcb> and cross-team fertilization and publication of spec ideas would be helpful
<ScottK> For the mail server stuff I've started an exploration of FAI and the bits we'd need to get it moving.  Just need to find time to invest in it.
<zul> hello, so I propose that we stick openldap 2.4.9 into 8.04.1
<danshearer> does spec == blueprint?
<zul> The reasons are simple:
<ScottK> danshearer: Yes.
<zul> - Already merged openldap for intrepid.
<zul> - Been testing it for the past couple of days havent seen a regression.
<zul> - Ran the ubuntu-qa testsuite against it.
<zul> - Fixes a number of bugs after 2.4.7 released (113 Fixed upstream bugs between 2.4.7 to 2.4.9) - http://www.pastebin.ca/1038577
<zul> - Launchpad bugs fixed #218734, #227187
<zul> - However, still needs patches backported from HEAD.
<zul> - syncrepl not usuable in 2.4.7
<zul> - Upstream recommended us not to use 2.4.7 at UDS.
<mathiaz> zul: any point to wait for 2.4.10 ?
<jdstrand> zul: how many patches from HEAD remain?
<zul> mathiaz: they are still testing it so I dont know if it will get into intrepid in time for 8.04.1
<zul> jdstrand: 4 small patches
<jdstrand> mathiaz: I think .10 will be too close to 8.04.1 for adequate testing, but I could be wrong
<danshearer> zul: ran the OL testsuite too? (excuse me Chuck, I don't know you, this is probably old hat...)
<slangasek> you're already on borrowed time for getting 2.4.9 into 8.04.1
<zul> danshearer: no the ubuntu-qa test suite
<zul> hi slangasek
<slangasek> so if you decide you want this, the upload needs to be happening this week
<kirkland> danshearer: subtle difference, blueprint = status tracking mechanism in Launchpad, which corresponds to a spec = detailed design document in the wiki
<danshearer> syncrepl is a big deal
<zul> slangasek: Im already sitting on the upload I wanted a general consensus first
<jdstrand> zul: see build_testing/openldap/README.make_test in qa-regression-testing for using openldap's internal build suite
<mathiaz> slangasek: would the changelog fit the SRU critiria ?
<zul> jdstrand: ah ok I can try that as well thanks
<danshearer> jdstrand: right. if we ask upstream for something that'll be the first question back.
<slangasek> mathiaz: are you asking about the upstream changelog?  I haven't seen it myself yet, got a handy link?
<zul> I have already seen complaints about syncrepl in bug reports at least
<mathiaz> slangasek: http://www.pastebin.ca/1038577
<danshearer> with syncrepl, that gives one more service where Ubuntu can say "we have active-active failover".
<jdstrand> I think it would be fantastic if some people in #ubuntu-server could test .9 as soon as possible
<sommer> is there a list of things to test?
<sommer> or is that explained in the make file you mentioned
<zul> sommer: Launchpad bugs  #218734, #227187 for one
<jdstrand> sommer: I was talking about just using zul's packages
<sommer> jdstrand: ah, okay
<jdstrand> in production if possible
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 218734 in openldap2.3 "(ITS#5527) slapd segfaults when using dynlist" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218734
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 227187 in ubuntu "Hardy nags" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/227187
<jdstrand> sommer: zul can handle the build tests
<dendrobates> danshearer: I don't care about new features.  I care about the 100 or so bug fixess that Howard said would be diffucult or impossible to back port.
<sommer> cool, I'll take a look at the bugs this evening
<zul> dendrobates: and I looked at that route and my jaw dropped as well :)
<mathiaz> zul: have you 2.4.9 package for hardy in your ppa (or somewhere else) ?
<slangasek> mathiaz: with suitable testing it looks like it may be acceptable.  Are there a subset of these fixes that have been identified as critical for 8.04.1?
<zul> mathiaz: I have it locally I just had to make one change to the build-deps for hardy
<zul> slangasek: I would say the syncrepl issues
<slangasek> zul: so everything prefixed as "syncrepl"? :)
<zul> mathiaz: but I can upload to my ppa first
<zul> slangasek: pretty much :)
<mathiaz> zul: yeah - that would help in testing
<slangasek> I would like to be able to weigh how many of these changes are critical, user-affecting bugs vs. fixes we could live without that may carry regressions
<zul> mathiaz: ok
<zul> slangasek: so go through the bug tracker and evaluate them?
<slangasek> zul: well, I mean identifying which of the many bugs in this changelog are the ones driving this SRU request
<mathiaz> how could the bug be classified ?
<jdstrand> slangasek: is your thinking that maybe there are only 10 of the 100 that we really need for hardy, and those 10 may not be hard to backport to .7?
<slangasek> rather than a global "look, they're all bugfixes", which doesn't give me a good way to weigh the risk against the benefit
<slangasek> jdstrand: that's an option that should be kept on the table, yes
<zul> slangasek: I would say the ones that the dynlist one and the syncrepl I havent checked the forums though
<mathiaz> It seems that there is a whole set of bugs about syncrep
<mathiaz> which is broken in 2.4.7 according to upstream
<slangasek> and if it's a bad idea to do backporting, then someone can smack me and say that :)
<mathiaz> and then there are some crashed
<mathiaz> crashers
<slangasek> right
<mathiaz> so if we could classify which bugs are syncrepl related, which once are crashers
<mathiaz> and document that in a bug, would that help in the SRU process ?
<slangasek> yes
<zul> I can do that
<mathiaz> zul: ok - could you also check that tests are working correctly ?
<zul> mathiaz: sure
<mathiaz> zul: the current build process doesn't run make test
<zul> mathiaz: correct
<mathiaz> zul: but making sure it doesn't break would also help in the SRU process IMO
<zul> mathiaz: gotcha, as a side note 2.4.9 has already been uploaded to my ppa
<slangasek> I think we have some XFAILs with the current make test, which prevented it from being enabled
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul to break down the list of bugs fixed in 2.4.9 by categories (syncrepl, crashers, etc...)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to break down the list of bugs fixed in 2.4.9 by categories (syncrepl, crashers, etc...)
<jdstrand> zul: it would be useful to compare the build tests of .7 and .9
<zul> jdstrand: ok will do
<jdstrand> zul: like slangasek said, hardy has some known failures, so we are most interested in not introducing more
<mathiaz> slangasek: and the deadline for getting it included in 8.04.1 is friday ?
<ogra> it was last friday actually :)
<lukehasnoname> rofl
<ogra> it is extended already
<soren> Er... So why is the point release scheduled for July 10th on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule ?
<jdstrand> sommer: openssl
<jdstrand> soren: ^
<soren> i thought the deadline this week was for targeting stuff for the point release, and then the actual deadline for getting it in was significantly later?
<Keybuk> soren: it's proposed, reather than scheduled?
<soren> Keybuk: Point.
<lukehasnoname> HardyReleaseSchedule says July 3rd
<lukehasnoname> er, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
<soren> Keybuk: I'm not sure what you're implying, though (if anything)?
<Keybuk> soren: I'm not implying anything
<soren> That it might be even later? Or that it could be any time at all, including July 10th?
<Keybuk> I have no idea when 8.04.1 is ;)
<soren> Keybuk: Ok :)
<Keybuk> I've just seen three different dates
<Keybuk> so don't necessarily believe that one
<Keybuk> slangasek will _definitely_ know when 8.04.1 is :)
<soren> Maybe iz sekrit?
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on as zul has taken up the task of providing more information about this.
<dendrobates> here here,
<owh> dendrobates: Where?
<Koon> there.
<jdstrand> there -->
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Blog
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server Blog
<kirkland> we're now a Dr. Suess poem
<sommer> heh
<mathiaz> As discussed during last UDS, soren dendrobates and I promised to blog more often
<mathiaz> so I've created an Ubuntu Server Blog - http://ubuntuserver.wordpress.com/
<soren> You lucky people!
<slangasek> soren: if you're talking about getting things included in the point release, those need to land in -updates well before the July 10 deadline, because we have to roll & validate CD images
<soren> slangasek: Sure, sure.
<mathiaz> I still need to fix planet.ubuntu.com to show it
<slangasek> s/deadline/release date/
<ScottK> mathiaz: Are other developers able to contribute to the blog?
<mathiaz> ScottK: in the mid term, I hope to
<slangasek> now OTOH, if you don't need it to be part of .1, then you don't have a deadline either :)
<mathiaz> ScottK: but first, I'd like to figure out the editorial policy
<mathiaz> What kind of content will go there
<mathiaz> I'm planning to publish the minutes of the meeting there
<zul> obviously not pictures of monkeys...*cough* soren *cough*
<ScottK> mathiaz: OK, but I think limiting an Ubuntu server blog to Canonical employees is not a good message.
<owh> mathiaz: That policy will depend on what you want it to do and whom you want the audience to be I suspect.
<soren> slangasek: The main question was whether the deadline this week was for targeting things for a release that would happen much later or for actually getting the stuff into said release.
<nijaba> mathiaz: aren't the minutes publically avail on the wiki already??
<mathiaz> owh: exactly - this still needs to be figured out
<slangasek> soren: for getting stuff into that release
<mathiaz> nijaba: yes they are - just another channel to push them
<soren> slangasek: Oh. Ok.
<mathiaz> ScottK: I really hope that every one in the Ubuntu Server team will be able to blog there
<nijaba> mathiaz: I don't see any gain in duplication.  I'd think that having a pointer to them would be enough
<nealmcb> does planet ubuntu have ways of marking sub-channels?
<lukehasnoname> Do Canonical employees have an official blog link?
 * ScottK \o/ - The missing 'J' key is back on his laptop.
<mathiaz> ScottK: We'd just have to figure out what type of content goes there
<owh> mathiaz: I agree with nijaba on the duplication side of things.
<nealmcb> I'd probably prefer to blog from my own site, but would like to see appropriate posts available via e.g. tags at planet.ubuntu
<mathiaz> nijaba: yes - I'll link there -  I only write stuff once
<mathiaz> nijaba: but publish it in different channels
<ScottK> mathiaz: I think if you write a 2 sentence mission statement and then give developers access it'll be fine (plus select others).
<owh> ScottK: How do you plan to "select others"?
<nealmcb> maybe like a "planet ubuntu server" to go with the others there
<nijaba> mathiaz: I would think it is a great place for dev to comment their advance on their tasks
<mathiaz> nijaba: correct - that's what I'd like to see as the content
<owh> Even for those who have meeting action points to put updates forward.
<mathiaz> I don't think post about how-tos would be acceptable.
<nealmcb> ... but  I don't know if those show up in planet.ubuntu.com also, or what - I'll look more into it
<dendrobates> mathiaz: I am not sure I see the reasoning for separating out the server blogs from the Planet.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: I haven't suggested - nealmcb is
<nealmcb> "others" could just be like with planet.ubuntu - all "members"
<owh> Under blogger anyone can send an email to a 'sekrit' address which a moderator can choose to publish. Perhaps any member of the ubuntu-server team should be able to submit a post.
<dendrobates> why not just have individual server team members blog to the planet?  Or are you just trying to make it easier for them to do so?
<ogra> just set up planet.server.ubuntu.com :) and devs can add their feeds to both if you want specific server blogs in one space
<mathiaz> owh: that's another option - may be I'll refine the policy once submitted content is available
<Koon> dendrobates: a common blog is ncie for those who can't commit to one article per week
<Koon> nice, even.
<nijaba> ogra; isn't that what tagging is for?
<owh> ogra: I think the idea is "the voice of ubuntu-server", rather than the voice of John Bob.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: I'm more thinking about the google team blogs
<mathiaz> dendrobates: that's a useful place to go to if you wanna follow the hapenings of a specific google product
 * nealmcb needs to figure out why pidgin is hanging and crashing - related to pulse-audio and remote sound servers?
<ogra> nijaba, not sure how well planet handles that
<ScottK> owh: I think it's pretty clear who is contributing.
<nealmcb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntu
<ogra> bu you need a separate aggregarot in any case i think
<nealmcb> permission via launchpad and bzr...
<ogra> *aggregator
<owh> I agree, the blog could "demistify" discussions that we all understand but leave our user-base with questions. Like, why kvm and not Xen, and another webmin vs ebox, etc.
<lukehasnoname> Yes, why not Xen? >_>
<mathiaz> so it seems that a editirial policy needs to be figured out before other post can be published
<lukehasnoname> *answer me later on that, seriously*
<nijaba> owh: see, you already have a couple blog entry to write ;)
<soren> lukehasnoname: Don't get me started... :)
<ScottK> mathiaz: I think the most critical policy decision that will need to be made is if it's permissable to mention related commercial services.
<owh> nijaba: ROTFL
<owh> ScottK: What kind of services were you thinking of?
<mathiaz> So for now on, I'll be the only one to post there - once I've figured out what type of post goes there, I'll open up the blog to others
<owh> mathiaz: Perhaps you could open that up to include posts submitted to you via email.
<mathiaz> If someone has suggestion wrt to the policy or an idea for a post, contact me
<danshearer> lukehasnoname: pls excuse me, but I'm not sure how serious that question actually was. Within the server team is this settled?
<mathiaz> we'll figure out if it's worth putting there
<nijaba> danshearer: I confirm that IT IS
<lukehasnoname> I do believe we need some sort of blog or forum for "pop" discussion, recurring topics like popular software, GUI discussions, high level stuff
<mathiaz> I'll probably have a better idea of the issues once contributions arrive.
<zul> lukehasnoname: ubuntuforums
<lukehasnoname> danshearer: It is serious, I got your earlier msg, but let's not discuss it right now, here. I have to leave work soon anyway. Email me if you wish.
<owh> mathiaz: Yeah, I don't think there is any point in having posts about the weather and pizza, but more "meta" submissions.
<soren> danshearer: What is? That KVM is the good stuff and Xen not so much?
<ScottK> owh: Any.  Ubuntu Server is a FOSS product, not a commercial one.
<lukehasnoname> zul: Ya, uf, but how many people in the real dev team/Canonical acutally browse that? they stick to the mailing list
<owh> ScottK: Sure, but people have to eat as well.
<mathiaz> Ok - so let's move on
<danshearer> I'm more asking to what extent the pros and cons of this have been aired.
<ogra> ScottK, and ?
<ScottK> Personally, I think it's OK, but it should be decided.  I'd be against Canonical gets to announce their commercial stuff and others don't.
<danshearer> Within the Server team, and what forum would be best for trying to summarise these issues.
<ogra> ScottK, why shouldnt people blog about cool new commercial services ... as long as they tell its commercial
<ScottK> ogra: I believe they should.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Webmin and ebox discussion on ubuntu-user
<MootBot> New Topic:  Webmin and ebox discussion on ubuntu-user
<danshearer> Don't want to distract the meeting. But if gobby.ubuntu worked I'd start one now. It certainly isn't a simple question.
<mathiaz> owh ?
<owh> Yeah
<ogra> ScottK, ah, then i misunderstood
<owh> A question was asked in ubuntu-users@ about ebox vs. webmin: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2008-May/147651.html
<slangasek> ogra: I believe he said that it shouldn't be a channel that's exclusively for Canonical's use, not that people shouldn't blog
<owh> I towed the "company line" as I understand it and indicated that webmin was removed from Ubuntu and Debian because it does not handle configuration files as we do.
<ScottK> ogra: I just want a clear policy up front.
<owh> There was comment that ebox stores all configuration files inside its own directory and also that a new version of webmin was available - including Debian packages.
<ogra> right
<owh> The discussions I've looked at since indicate a genuine confusion and many are still recommending webmin over ebox.
<owh> Thus I committed to asking here in the meeting for further comment and enlightenment - herewith.
<ScottK> Webmin has always built .deb packages you could get off their web site.
<owh> Our blog could help here :)
<soren> danshearer: gobby.ubuntu.com works fine.. And there's already a document about it from UDS in Boston. Anyhow, let's discuss this elsewhere.
<dendrobates> this meeting is falling apart.  What is our current topic.
<ScottK> [TOPIC] Webmin and ebox discussion on ubuntu-user
<lukehasnoname> I believe that whatever we do, there needs to be SOME sort of remote, all-in-one, graphical admin tool
<nealmcb> owh: good summary.  mathiaz and I have yet to find a good current "smoking gun" indicating a problem with config files and webmin
<ScottK> I think that's agreed.
<owh> And I believe I have the floor.
<ScottK> nealmcb: I've seen it break postfix configs.  I think I pointed that example out to you before.
<dendrobates> mathiaz: move on please!
<lukehasnoname> ESPECIALLY one that can be installed from tasksel, like LAMP, Mail, SSH, etc. This is where Ubuntu is one step above the rest.
<owh> The issue in debian appears to be this: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=343897
<ubottu> Debian bug 343897 in ftp.debian.org "ftp.debian.org: Please remove all webmin related packages" [Wishlist,Closed]
<nealmcb> ScottK: is that a current problem, or something from a while ago?
<owh> Which indicates that the maintainer has been struggling a long time to package webmin sensibly.
<ScottK> nealmcb: Within the last year IIRC.
<nealmcb> see also https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/2873
<owh> The debian bug I showed was posted on Sunday, 18 December 2005
<mathiaz> owh: so nealmcb and I looked into that a couple of week ago
<owh> Excellent, what was the outcome?
<mathiaz> owh: from my point of view, webmin gives to much power to the target users
<mathiaz> owh: they can easily shoot themselves and break their configuration
<nealmcb> ScottK: was that a bug in webmin, or a problem that is fundamental to webmin but not ebox, or a difficulty with any config system?
<mathiaz> owh: and then unable to repair their configuration
<ScottK> nealmcb: I've got no idea.
<mathiaz> owh: webmin is a web front end to edit configuration files
<owh> mathiaz: But couldn't you say the same for ssh and vi?
<mathiaz> owh: if you've figured out every option in webmin you can use ssh and vi
<owh> mathiaz: What I mean is that if you break it, you get to keep both parts.
<nealmcb> one thing we generally like about ebox is that it has a higher-level notion of what the user is probably trying to do, rather than being closely tied to config file syntax
<ogra> owh, thats not really ubuntu
<mathiaz> owh: exactly - the issue IMO is with the target audience
<owh> nealmcb: But feedback seems to be that ebox stores stuff in its own structure and doesn't use or reuse the configurations.
<owh> mathiaz: Excellent, now we're getting somewhere.
<nealmcb> but I think it would help to have more folks review ebox carefully and help keep it on track.  I think functional, safe gui management is very important to ubuntu server
<mathiaz> owh: yes - ebox has the same problem
 * lukehasnoname will install Ubuntu server on a spare box and try out ebox asap
<mathiaz> owh: but it gives less power to the end user
<ogra> it provides lead socks for the feet :)
<owh> So, let me get this straight. Webmin works, but it can bork stuff seriously. Ebox has a meta-view of the GUI and it's not yet finished.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Kubuntu Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Jun 01:00 UTC: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team
<lukehasnoname> ubottu: no sir
<owh> So as ubuntu-server we decided that we need to help our users - isn't that a slippy-slope to "bob" the paperclip?
<ubottu> Factoid no sir not found
<mathiaz> Riddell: is the Kubuntu meeting now ?
<ScottK> Looks like our time is about expired and there is another meeting.
<nealmcb> owh: I'd like more folks to try both of them and document what they see.  I see this fitting back into our "strategy" discussion also
<owh> nealmcb: I agree.
<ogra> owh, i think the better term is "do it right"
<owh> ogra: That is a helpful way of looking at it, thanks.
 * owh is done with topic.
<ogra> which webmin surely doesnt and ebox isnt doing *yet*
<mathiaz> owh: great - thanks for the question
<owh> ogra: Ah, but there are developers for that :)
<lukehasnoname> Gentlemen, I must go home from work now, but I'll be continuing some of these topics on the ubuntu-server mailing list.
<ogra> owh, indeed :)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Limesurvey
<MootBot> New Topic:  Limesurvey
<lukehasnoname> lively discussion
<nijaba> Kees verified the new version of Limesurvey: unfortunately not all issues that he reported have been solved (or correctly solved) in the latest version...
<mathiaz> nijaba: ^^ ?
<nijaba> As we are clearly running out of time, here are a few possibilities:
<nijaba> 1/ run it on proprietary software Canonical has paid for (would not be running on ubuntu.com, has a limited feature set compared to limesurvey)
<Riddell> mathiaz: yes
<nijaba> 2/ run it on survey monkey (would not be on ubuntu.com, not fully evaluated)
 * nealmcb looks forward to at least learning lukehasnoname's email addr :)
<ScottK> mathiaz: How about move to #ubuntu-server
<mathiaz> ScottK: right - let's move to #ubuntu-server
<lukehasnoname> lukehasnoname@gmail.com
<mathiaz> nijaba: and all -> #ubuntu-server
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:03.
<Riddell> -- MARK --
<nealmcb> lukehasnoname: :)
<Riddell> anyone here for a Kubuntu meeting?
<ScottK> Riddell: Here
 * Nightrose waves
<nosrednaekim> yep
<yuriy> here :)
<mobiusNZ> Riddell: yep
 * a|wen waves
<mhb> we are!
<Arby> yep
<a|wen> mhb: how many are you today?
 * apachelogger_ waves
 * seele waves
<mhb> a|wen: 5-10
<Riddell> nixternal: ?
<a|wen> cool ;)
<nosrednaekim> mhb: those drugs aren't good for you... I assure you :P
<Riddell> well good evening Friends
<Riddell> agenda is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> first item is our annual council reshuffle
<Riddell> hobbsee, kwwii and lure have all said they're happy to step down
<Riddell> so I suggest we swap those three for three brand new members
<Riddell> does that seem sensible?
<seele> yes
<apachelogger_> totally
 * a|wen nods
<Riddell> groovy
<Riddell> so now we're looking for names for three active kubuntu folks who would like to serve on the council
<Riddell> preferably a good spread of talents and areas of interest
<Riddell> any volunteers or nominees?
<mhb> seele, ScottK
<seele> mhb, ScottK!
<nosrednaekim> apachelogger (or is he already on it?)
<Riddell> remaining members are me, tonio and nixternal
<yuriy> apachelogger_, ScottK
 * mhb votes for apachelogger_ , too
<seele> oh yeah.. apachelogger_!
<apachelogger_> uha
<apachelogger_> :)
<seele> how about everyone on the list from UDS?
<a|wen> apachelogger_, ScottK, yuriy
<seele> who is on the council now?
<Riddell> seele: see above
<seele> Riddell, nixternal, and i forget the third
<apachelogger_> uha
<seele> oh, tonio
<apachelogger_> hm
 * apachelogger_ is clearly in a loop
 * Nightrose pokes apachelogger_ out of the loop :P
<apachelogger_> thank you honey
<Nightrose> yw ;-)
<Riddell> the list at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuIntrepidCouncil which is mostly that first names that came to me, included mhb, Nightrose, yuriy as well as names that have been suggested
<seele> kill -9 apachelogger_
<seele> ouch
<apachelogger_> omg
<seele> lol
<apachelogger_> Riddell: that list looks very sane to me
<Riddell> apachelogger_: but the trouble is getting it down to three :)
<seele> is nixternal and tonio here?
<ScottK> Did we find someone who is active in user support?
<nosrednaekim> make a slashdot poll! problem solved
<Riddell> seele: don't seem to be
<apachelogger_> oh
<yuriy> nosrednaekim: lol
<apachelogger_> I have an idea
<apachelogger_> letz use a random number generator :D
<nosrednaekim> I'm active in User support
<nosrednaekim> but not much else :P
<mhb> I'm fine with not being in the council.
<Riddell> mhb, seele, Nightrose, apachelogger_, ScottK, yuriy: would you be willing and able to be on the council?
<apachelogger_> sure
<seele> sure
<apachelogger_> everything for the project :)
 * Nightrose would be willing and able :)
<seele> POPJINX!
<Nightrose> right ;-)
<ScottK> Yes.
 * yuriy looks into #kubuntu and sees coreymon77 as the only familiar name
 * seele coughs.
<mhb> I'm fine with being in the council, too.
<yuriy> and nosrednaekim in #kubuntu-kde4
<nosrednaekim> yuriy: i'm in #kubuntu as well :P
<yuriy> willing and able
<apachelogger_> nosrednaekim: you certainly don't look familiar then
<yuriy> nosrednaekim: i was looking at who spoke in the last 3 pages or so
<nosrednaekim> ^_^
<Riddell> all good names
<Riddell> I'd rather avoid voting since then things get personal, and the council is just a way of sampling the community's feeling when we need it
<mhb> right
<ScottK> Riddell: I like voting.
<mhb> like I said, I'm fine not being in the list.
<mhb> I have trust in all the other candidates.
<ScottK> Riddell: Voting has a downside, but it's also the most valid source of legitimacy in a volunteer project.
 * yuriy is fine either way as well and thinks others are better candidates but appreciates being nominated
<yuriy> what way other than voting?
<ScottK> Riddell picks is another viable approach.
<seele> or Riddell just picks
<ScottK> He's got enough community support that that would work too.
<Riddell> the trick is to find the right way forward
<yuriy> vote on whether to vote :P
<apachelogger_> yuriy: that is going to loop at some point as well
<ScottK> Riddell: I could help someone not involved in the election set up a proper condorcet (modulo the spelling) ballot.
<Riddell> looking at the balance of talents, keenness and timezones I'm drawn to the names of seele, Nightrose and ScottK
 * yuriy pokes apachelogger_ further out of the loop
 * a|wen would be confident in Riddell picking
<apachelogger_> yuriy: at some point that is going to lead to a crash :P
<mhb> why not.
<nosrednaekim> Riddell: your judgement is cool with me :)
 * ScottK looks for an escape.
<yuriy> an escape?
<Riddell> other suggestions for groups of three would be welcome :)
<apachelogger_> hm
<apachelogger_> ScottK: say something bad about KDE
<ScottK> Heh.
<yuriy> not able/willing?
<apachelogger_> Riddell: just use some random number generator
<ScottK> If picked I'll do it, but I'm not actively seeking it.
<ScottK> I'm good with Riddell choosing.
<Riddell> that is a sign of a good candidate :)
<nosrednaekim> ScottK: you can't win :P
 * yuriy wonders where nixternal is
<ScottK> Riddell: I don't do much of anything in terms of user work or bug triage.  Are people who do those things represented.
<ScottK> ?
<seele> besides voting members, what all do council do?
<seele> *does
<seele> most important decisions get made at uds
<Riddell> seele: occationally vote on minutae when there's no clear decision, I think we had a vote on dolphin vs konqueror once
<yuriy> hmm seele Nightrose and ScottK  sounds like a nicely balance group
 * ScottK would have liked to have voted on that one.
<nosrednaekim> haha, me too
<Riddell> any other suggestions for groups of three names that would work?
<mhb> let's get it over with
<neversfelde> can't we use launchpad for a secret vote, should not be to personal?
<mhb> we've got more interesting things on the agenda
<a|wen> Nightrose, ScottK ...  yuriy | nosrednaekim
 * nosrednaekim gasps
 * a|wen knows that is two suggestions
 * ScottK gets a lot of bugmail from yuriy.  He'd be good.
 * apachelogger_ agrees with ScottK
<nixternal> woo
 * apachelogger_ gives nixternal a cookie
<Nightrose> ohhh the nixternal ;-)
 * claydoh is sorry for being late :(
<nixternal> I can't believe I missed this working on the release notes
<a|wen> Nightrose: welcome :)
<a|wen> nixternal**
<Nightrose> heh
<nosrednaekim> definately yuriy over myself...
<nixternal> Riddell: http://www.nixternal.com/~rj/kde-4.1beta1.tar.gz <- for the website - you can post it in about an hour or so
<Riddell> thanks nixternal
<nixternal> alrighty, we still working on the council topic?
<Nightrose> yes
<nixternal> k, who are the candidates thus far?
<apachelogger_> you can stick with it for a bit, I didn't finish that merge yet
<Riddell> mhb, seele, Nightrose, apachelogger_, ScottK, yuriy, nosrednaekim I think
<Riddell> find the three out of that who offer the best balance
<nixternal> and I take it we will let the community sort that out to 3 and we can approve, or do we have to vote on each member? or....why not setup a poll on LP
<ScottK> nixternal: If we are going to have an election, we ought to do a proper one and not the half baked thing LP calls an election.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Jun 01:00 UTC: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30 UTC: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
<Riddell> polls take time, get personal and at the end of it you might end up with three people without a spread of talents
<nixternal> Riddell: does the current council have to select 3 then?
<ScottK> We've got a rough consensus around the process being "Riddell picks".
<mhb> Riddell: you can't make it not personal at this point
<nixternal> cuz this is super tuff, every candidate is freakin' perfect imho
<Riddell> nixternal: ideally the community would
<nixternal> whew
<coreymon77> im here, just came back from dinner
<mhb> Riddell: someone won't get there and that someone won't be happy about it
<nixternal> or we could do a rock-scissors-paper tournament
<Riddell> mhb: sure we can, they're all great names, it's just a case of the most balanced people
<apachelogger_> nixternal: uhh, I'd like that
<nixternal> hehe
<coreymon77> huh?
<coreymon77> what are we voting on?
<coreymon77> somebody fill me in if you dont mind
<yuriy> coreymon77: trying to select three new people for community council
<apachelogger_> CC
<mhb> I'd just let Riddell pick three and move on
<nixternal> so, out of the candidates, who really wants to be on the KC, why do you want to be on the KC, and what will you bring to the KC?
<nixternal> and who would be interested in being the REVU coordinator :P
<Riddell> they're all too shy
<apachelogger_> nah
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> apachelogger_ is far from shy, a little weird ya
<apachelogger_> because community is the most important part of shaping kubuntu to a 1st class citizen
<apachelogger_> and
<nixternal> :P
<nosrednaekim> just pick riddel and nixternal.... we'll agree with wahetever
<yuriy> well that eliminates those of us who don't know what a review coordinator is :D
<apachelogger_> we need to get there :D
<ScottK> nixternal: If selected I will serve, but I"m not campaigning.
 * Nightrose would like to be on the KC to help grow the Kubuntu community - what I would bring is a talent for exactly that
<apachelogger_> soon
<apachelogger_> sooner
<yuriy> *REVU
<apachelogger_> the soonest
<apachelogger_> and I say yuriy is a good revu coordiantor
<ScottK> nixternal: No.  I won't be the REVU coordination.
<nixternal> ScottK: who do you think you are? Barack Obama? :P
<ScottK> nixternal: Most definitely not.
<nixternal> haha
<apachelogger_> lol
<Nightrose> and sorry no interest in becomming the revu coordinator since you nixternal are doing a great job there :P
<coreymon77> YES WE CAN! YES WE CAN! :p
<coreymon77> you gotta wonder
<coreymon77> yes we can what?
<seele> uhm.. hmm.  i guess i lose points.  i dont know what REVU is?
<nixternal> lol
<Riddell> I'm pondering seele, Nightrose and yuriy
<nosrednaekim> I'd like to -- becuase I can bring a sense of what the users want from doing support.
<apachelogger_> coreymon77: ah, tell us, cmon
<nixternal> oh man, that took guts....I am having a really hard time picking 3..
<nosrednaekim> but I'm don't know how busy I will be in the fall with college
<coreymon77> apachelogger_: it was a joke
 * apachelogger_ almost suggested nosrednaekim
<Riddell> for good upstream connections, good community love and user and bug handling (plus people in US timezones)
<coreymon77> apachelogger_: im canadian anyways
<seele> hmm.. council.  i have a good (usually) relationship with upstream kde dev and usually work between kde and kubuntu anyway
<apachelogger_> makes it even more confusing
 * apachelogger_ continues merging
<seele> i can help with the smashing of heads bit
<nixternal> ahhh!
<yuriy> as far as US timezones, I think every USian here except nixternal is E{S,D}T
<seele> yeah, but nixternal is only 1 more behind and doesnt matter for evening meetings
<seele> none of use easterners make the early meetings anyway
<coreymon77> i canadian, but i am in eastern time zone too
<coreymon77> oh ya, no way in heck can i make those 7 am meetings
<coreymon77> sorry, but i just cant do it
<coreymon77> even this starts right when i start dinner
<coreymon77> so im usually 30 mins late
<seele> i thought they were at 10UTC 6EST?
<apachelogger_> ok, krecipes merged
<seele> er, whatever 6am is.  maybe i counted wrong
<nosrednaekim> yeah... 6
<nosrednaekim> 7 I could do
<nixternal> whoa!
<nixternal> I just drew names from an Ubuntu hat of all things, and here is what I drew in order:
<nixternal> Nightrose, ScottK, and seele
<nosrednaekim> the first three.
<nixternal> now that is nuts
<Nightrose> which was Riddell's first lineup ;-)
<nixternal> what are the odds of picking 2 that Riddell chose
<Nightrose> 3!
<Riddell> nixternal: is that a serious suggestion though?
<yuriy> hmm.. i think i'm a good candidate because i'm currently enrolled in a whole 3 classes next year
<apachelogger_> like nixternal ever is serious
<nixternal> Riddell: I could pick any combination of 3 and they would rock, but like you I do like the upstream connections with seele and Nightrose
 * apachelogger_ notes that he has an never ending amount of time next year ;-)
<nixternal> wait a second!!!
<ScottK> Riddell: My suggestion is put the whole list out for comment to you for a week.  You take comments in private and then announce your decision.
<yuriy> seele, Nightrose,  apachelogger_|ScottK
<nixternal> I would like to take a good community vote myself on who they would helping to head up Kubuntu
<nixternal> this almost feels like way to much pressure for me and I don't want to pick 3 and upset the others either....
<Riddell> that's what this meeting is for
<ScottK> nixternal: Since Riddell doesn't want a vote, he can get a sense of that from people who send him comments.
<nixternal> I like every candidate a ton
<nixternal> Riddell: as it stands, the 2 sticking out for me right now are: seele and ScottK as they both have way to much experience, and are proven leaders already
<apachelogger_> can we settle these two?
<nixternal> i am at a toss between Nightrose and apachelogger_ because they are 2 hardcore community people
<nixternal> and I like the fresh blood that yuriy, nosrednaekim, and mhb bring
 * ScottK likes any of them better than me.
<apachelogger_> 45 minutes passed
<Nightrose> awww ScottK  - come on ;-)
 * apachelogger_ makes it easier by denominating himself
<apachelogger_> GNOME > KDE
<nixternal> jeesh
<nixternal> hahaha, jerk
<apachelogger_> :P
<Nightrose> *lol*
<nickellery> @schedule Vancouver
<ubottu> nickellery: Schedule for America/Vancouver: 04 Jun 18:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 06:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 13:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 14:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 03:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 04:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
<nixternal> umm, that Americas Ubuntu Membership meeting isn't supposed to be until tomorrow
<nixternal> anyways
<nickellery> really?
<nickellery> thats what i thought
<nickellery> then i saw that
<nixternal> according to the mailing list they said June 5
<nickellery> yea, that's what I assumed
 * ScottK smacks nixternal back on topic
<nickellery> I'll check Fridge
<Riddell> pondering the names I'm still thinking seele, nixternal, yuriy offer the best ballance
<nixternal> haha
<nosrednaekim> nightrose?
<apachelogger_> yeah
<apachelogger_> I'd go with nixternal
<nixternal> Riddell: I have to agree on balance
<apachelogger_> he has a bit of an alter ego anyway :D
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> Riddell: seele, Nightrose, and yuriy for me then
<ScottK> Vote nixternal in twice and make him do twice the work.
<nosrednaekim> heh
<Riddell> err yes, I ment to say Nightrose
<Nightrose> hehe
<nixternal> NOOOOOOOO!
<a|wen> ha :)
<nosrednaekim> he already does twice the work :P
<apachelogger_> hm
<ScottK> Twice again then.
<apachelogger_> more work for nixternal
<apachelogger_> sounds reasonable
<nickellery> The Fridge says its tomorrow http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1497 .... who can be contacted to fix this?
<coreymon77> nixternal seems good
<nixternal> nickellery: me
<a|wen> back to topic ... nixternal's suggestion sound very reasonable
<coreymon77> hes always been helpful
<nosrednaekim> coreymon77: he's already on it :P
<Riddell> so let's do an irc vote on seele, Nightrose, and yuriy
<Riddell> +1 from me
<nosrednaekim> +1
<nixternal> +1
<apachelogger_> +1
<a|wen> +1 (if my vote counts)
<Riddell> all votes count
<nixternal> -2
<nixternal> :P
<a|wen> :)
<mhb> +1 so we can move on
<Riddell> seele, Nightrose, yuriy: do you accept?
<apachelogger_> oh, moving on
<apachelogger_> -1
 * Nightrose accepts
<nixternal> strange :)
<seele> yes
<nixternal> we have 1
 * apachelogger_ has another merge to do
 * yuriy wonders what the minuses are about
<nixternal> 2
<nixternal> and .....
<nosrednaekim> ctrl+alt+del -> click on nixternal->kill process
<yuriy> i accept
<nixternal> yuriy: jokes of course
<nixternal> 3
<Riddell> one caveat with Nightrose, you're not yet a member as I can see
<nixternal> d'oh
<Nightrose> true
<nosrednaekim> uhh oh! :)
<seele> ah, well let's vote on that right now
<nixternal> hahahahahahaha
<apachelogger_> lol
<yuriy> hahaha
<nosrednaekim> seele: we can't.... its a membership board now.
<apachelogger_> that technically would make the voting illegal
<apachelogger_> yay
<apachelogger_> we just voted outsiders in the circle of power
<ScottK> +1 from me
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: we can, it's one of the main functions of kubuntu council
<nosrednaekim> Riddell: oh....so kubuntu membership is different from the ubuntu membership process?
<seele> can she be on council without being a member?
<Riddell> nope
<Riddell> Nightrose: want us to consider your membership now or at a following meeting (i.e. do you have a few keen words to say and a wiki page)
<ScottK> Nightrose: Have you accepted the Ubuntu Code of Conduct?
<Nightrose> i have a wiki page - give me a second
<Nightrose> ScottK: i have
 * yuriy wonders how you can be on council and need to prove yourself as a member
<Nightrose> my wikipage is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Nightrose
<Riddell> do we have anyone else going for membership at this meeting?
<Pretto> America membership?
<nixternal> Pretto: tomorrow night
<Riddell> Nightrose: why would you like to be a kubuntu member?
<Pretto> nixternal, but in wiki it says today night for Brazil
<Nightrose> well first of all i think i can help make kubuntu rock by growing its community
<yuriy> Nightrose: remember you only get one vote, so if you -1 yourself we'll still vote you in
<apachelogger_> Nightrose: future plans?
<Nightrose> second I am doing a lot of advocacy for kubuntu at various events
<Nightrose> yuriy: ;-)
<nixternal> yay \o/
<Nightrose> apachelogger_: more bugfixing and community work
<apachelogger_> Nightrose: do you think it is important for kubuntu to support kubuntu focused LoCos better? or is it just as good to have them as part of an ubuntu LoCo?
 * emonkey can prove that, Nightrose was great at least at the last LinuxTag
<nixternal> slow down apachelogger_, you are taking some of my questions :)
<apachelogger_> sorry :(
<ScottK> The hour is about up.
<Nightrose> apachelogger_: hmmm I would love to see them work together better but seeing that this does not work very well for the german team...
 * ScottK votes +1 and suggest we move on ...
<apachelogger_> Oo
<apachelogger_> Nightrose: it does not?
<nixternal> we have a 2 hour time slot
<apachelogger_> emonkey: it does not?
<Nightrose> apachelogger_: not as good as it could
<ScottK> Ah.  Nevermind then.
<emonkey> It always could better, but there is potential for more, that's true
<nixternal> argh, brb....I have to help the neighbor really quick...5 minutes
<nixternal> +1 from me btw
<apachelogger_> +1
<apachelogger_> everyone just write some +1
<yuriy> +1
<Nightrose> thank you :)
<apachelogger_> I need to go to bed at some point :P
<Nightrose> heh
<nosrednaekim> +1 * inf
<Riddell> +1 from me for fosscamp contributions, linuxtag and lots more
<seele> +1
<a|wen> +1
<Riddell> congratulations and welcome to membership Nightrose
<Nightrose> \o/
<Nightrose> thanks
 * Nightrose grouphugs
<yuriy> \_o_/
<Serega> Nightrose: congratulations!
<Riddell> so if we're sure there's no other meeting happening here just now we can carry on with the agenda
<yuriy> Nightrose: congratulations
<yuriy> and thank you all
<Nightrose> thanks Serega and yuriy
<nosrednaekim> someone going to blog this? I'll volunteer...
<a|wen> Riddell: according to topic, we have another two hours
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-05
<nixternal> k, I am back
<apachelogger_> nosrednaekim: go ahead
<apachelogger_> wb nixternal
 * nixternal got an irn bru
<apachelogger_> hrrhrr
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: fridge it better
<Riddell> Tutorials Day
<Riddell> should we have another one?
<nosrednaekim> Riddell: ok, I'll give you something tommorow
<nosrednaekim> Riddell: yes!
<nixternal> Riddell: yes
<apachelogger_> yes
<Riddell> any suggestions for topics?
<Nightrose> +1 for another tutorial day - the last one seemed to have been a success
<Serega> yes
<Riddell> seele said she'd do a talk on usability
<nixternal> Basics and Getting Involved
<nosrednaekim> python plasma widget....
<JontheEchidna> I'd like a python plasma widget tutorial...
<Serega> merging!
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: is that you volunteering?
<nixternal> Getting Involved would cover: artwork?, documentation, packaging, programming, and more
<apachelogger_> Riddell: btw, I think we should do a packaging day once per cycle to get the latest and greatest software in, and to get more motus, faster
<nosrednaekim> Riddell: depends when the session is, but If I can make it, sure
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: on python plasma widgets (I've no idea how to make them)
<seele> Riddell: is this a user or developer tutorial day?
<Serega> +1 to apachelogger_
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: oh, when
<Riddell> seele: newer developers mostly
<nixternal> Riddell: python plasma widgets are easy :)
<Riddell> nosrednaekim: we can decide that when we know who's speaking, but soon
 * JontheEchidna can't seem to figure out how to install the python example widget
<seele> ok
<Nightrose> txwikinger or yuriy could do a bug traige tutorial
<Nightrose> *triage
<nosrednaekim> Riddell: it would have to be on a weekend for me
<yuriy> yeah, i'll do one
<Nightrose> yuriy++
<a|wen> yuriy: cool :)
<nixternal> I say we poll the community on what they would like to see (ie. email kubuntu-users and kubuntu-devel for ideas) maybe/
<seele> Riddell: when is the date for this (or is that tba?)
<Riddell> seele: to be decided
<nixternal> tba
<Riddell> nixternal: want to send that e-mail?
<nixternal> Riddell: will do
<nixternal> shoot, there is an America's meeting tonight
<Riddell> ok, I'll talk to people and we'll work out a date and timetable
<Riddell> nixternal your item next
<nixternal> Riddell: any updates? ie. wiki page with everything pooled?
<nixternal> from UDS that is
<nixternal> we covered my * Days topic with the Tutorial's Day
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuUDSPragueSpecs has them all
<nixternal> rock on, so on to Kubuntu 8.10
<nixternal> plans and ideas are covered
<nixternal> what is the status of KDE 3? universe or gone for good?
<nixternal> I keep hearing differently
<Riddell> they aren't approved yet, so it's possible the specs will get split or wee bits changed, but not much
<yuriy> about UDS specs, i was wondering about packagekit, because it's mentioned in one of the specs
<yuriy> to be used for the notifier
<nosrednaekim> yes, I'd like to know about packagekit too
<ScottK> nixternal: I vote removal.
<Riddell> nixternal: the desktop is gone, the libs will remain for where there's no kde 4 app yet
<nixternal> then we need to stop merging/syncing kde 3 apps if we do decide on removing
<nixternal> or are we keeping those
<Riddell> it'll go to universe if there's no kde 3 apps needed in main, but I don't know if that'll happen (amarok, k3b, digikam all unknown)
<nixternal> digikam will be ready by 8.10 release
<nixternal> Nightrose or apachelogger_? amarok?
<Serega> konversation :(
<nixternal> haven't heard much about k3b
<JontheEchidna> :( ++
<nixternal> ahh ya, konversation as well
<Riddell> if there's a stable kde 4 version (or one known to be stable before 8.10) we should go with that now
<Riddell> else merge the kde 3 version
<nixternal> I think most of my apps have kde4 releases soon
<nosrednaekim> nixternal: I just saw a screenshot of kde4 k3b
<nixternal> smb4k, krename, and I just forgot the others
<Nightrose> october? I really hope we have something usable by then
<apachelogger_> no
<apachelogger_> not possible
<nixternal> what?
<apachelogger_> we would have to lock everything down
<apachelogger_> get everyone to fix bugs and implement missing features
<nixternal> wow, OK, so keep amarok kde3 in
<yuriy> amarok 2 is decently usable already, is it really not feasible to have a usable version by october?
<apachelogger_> yuriy: no
<apachelogger_> gsoc code gets in
<apachelogger_> and there is a lot of minor issues
<Serega> +1, amarok is very good already
<apachelogger_> and with a lot I mean tons of them
<Nightrose> hmmm soc - good point
<Riddell> or we could go with juk again
 * Nightrose checks when soc pens down date is
<Riddell> but that sort of thing we said we'd look at around 4.1 release time
<yuriy> if somehow it comes down to amarok being the only kde3 app, should we go to juk by default?
<nixternal> I wouldn't do that, we would be cussed to death
<a|wen> yuriy: i would say no
<nosrednaekim> I need my amarok by default... *hugs*
<nixternal> ok, so this is something we can look at again in 2 months?
<Nightrose> apachelogger_: pencils down for gsoc is in mid august
<nixternal> err, less than 2 months
<nixternal> next month
<Riddell> nixternal: end of next month
<nixternal> Riddell: my birthday
<ScottK> nixternal: But if something is going to die in Intrepid (and we know it) let's kill it now so people don't waste time messing with it.
<Riddell> I'm afaid we're still blocked on main inclusion reports for kde 4 in intrepid, hopefully pitti or doko will look at those soon
<nixternal> ScottK: +1
<Riddell> incidently the KubuntuIntrepidKDE4Porting has plenty of work for keen coders
<nosrednaekim> yep... I was wondering if mountconfig needs porting?
<nosrednaekim> I'd hate to see that not be in there
<nixternal> Riddell: I am down for some coding!
<Riddell> packagekit doesn't seem to be ready for bigtime from our discussions at fosscamp and uds
<apachelogger_> Nightrose: as said, impossible
<ScottK> Riddell: For packages that are in KDE3/KDE4 and we know they will go KDE4, why not just reuse the same package name an no MIR needed.
<Riddell> I'd like to see it replace adept_batch, but for the rest adept 3 seems our best way
<Riddell> ScottK: we do
<ScottK> OK
<Riddell> ScottK: the current block is just that kde 4 has a number of new dependencies
<yuriy> Riddell: why have it replace adept_batch?
<yuriy> and still have the adept notifier?
<nixternal> there are new packages that need MIR (akonadi)
<nixternal> libkthis and libkthat :)
<ScottK> Why do we need akonadi in Main for this release?
<nixternal> KDE PIM
<Riddell> yuriy: notifier I don't think can ever use packagekit, and I believe packagekit isn't ready yet for upgrader
<ScottK> Is it a build-dep?
<nixternal> and there may be another app or 2 that utilized akonadi
<nixternal> ScottK: yes
<ScottK> I thought Kmail wouldn't use akonadi until 4.2
<ScottK> OK.
<Riddell> ScottK: kdepimlibs depends on it
 * ScottK shudders
<ScottK> OK.
<nixternal> it actually works well
<nixternal> at this current time
<apachelogger_> I luv my akonadi
 * ScottK loves his maildir
<Riddell> but kdepim itself doesn't use it yet
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> mailody does
<nixternal> ;)
<apachelogger_> right
<Riddell> shall we move on?
<ScottK> Sure
<nixternal> ya, skip the website updates, ryan isn't around
<nixternal> we are still awaiting canonical on that I take it?
<Riddell> Developer Days, Q&A Days, and more... -- nixternal ?
<nixternal> Riddell: re: Tutorial's Day
<Riddell> website is indeed still waiting on sysadmin to fix dripal
<nixternal> we can tie those in
<Riddell> drupal
<ScottK> nixternal: I really don't like the idea of dumping all my mail into another opaque data structure.
<Riddell> so Subteams nixternal??
<nixternal> what do people think on having some structure like that?
<Riddell> like what?
<nixternal> it is something I am implementing with my new job and has people buzzing already
<nixternal> a QA team, Packaging team, doc team, and so on...defined teams that is
<nixternal> that way there we can create defined structure easily for future contributors to get involved in
<yuriy> like this spec for support? https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuSupportTeam
<ScottK> Are we big enough to need the bureacracy?
<nixternal> just an idea, no need to yay or nay it right now
<Riddell> what would the teams do?
<Nightrose> ScottK: i don't think it is about need but about giving new contributors a clear point of contact
<nixternal> work specifically and be point of contacts within each team
<Nightrose> which i think is a very good thing
<nixternal> right now, it is hard to see who is doing what and where
<ScottK> We can make points of contact per function without having formal teams.
<nixternal> true
<ScottK> If you want to get involved in docs, bug nixternal for example.
<nixternal> NOOO!
<ScottK> I'm not sure what more we reallly need right now.
<nosrednaekim> uhhg dinner... later
<nixternal> later nosrednaekim
<ScottK> If you want to get invovled in QA, contact nixternal
<ScottK> You get the idea.
<nixternal> hahahaha
<nixternal> I knew you would go there
<nosrednaekim> oh, and if you want to get involved in user support, please do contact me :)
<yuriy> nosrednaekim: you're nixternal now?
<nosrednaekim> nixternal? heck no
<nosrednaekim> XD
<Nightrose> nosrednaekim: noooo - it is "if you wnat to get involved in * contact nixternal" ;-)
<ScottK> Functional contacts make a lot of sense, but I don't see a need for formal teams.
<nosrednaekim> dang... I haven't been listening
<nosrednaekim> :(
<nixternal> oh, forgot to add...team reports
<nixternal> ours suck
<yuriy> do we do them?
<ScottK> Splitting things up more than they need to be divides us and we're small enough that we ought to work really hard to avoid it.
<nixternal> yuriy: I throw up sucky stuff once a month just so we don't get yelled at
 * yuriy 's LoCo doesn't on some sort of principle
<nixternal> I have no idea who is doing what
<ScottK> nixternal: Explain to me why I should invest my volunteer time in report writing?
<nixternal> you don't, we will just continue to suck in our report
<nixternal> s
<ScottK> Great.  I don't mind that a bit personally.  Is it a problem?
 * a|wen agrees with ScottK ... but clear points of contact would be good
<Nightrose> nixternal: what about you make a list of "teams" you think are useful and name people who could be points of contact
<yuriy> i think a couple "hey guys, fill out the report!" on the 20th will do
<Nightrose> and if they agree they could be responsible for the team reports as well
<yuriy> for those that aren't opposed to it on principle
 * ScottK likes a word like 'areas' or something rather than teams.
<nixternal> ScottK: yes it is actually, because members within Canonical actually do read them and see where the worth in the projects are (at least according to other Canonical employees)
<nixternal> well, there is a page on the wiki for Kubuntu contributors to put what they have worked on for the time period
<ScottK> It's not clear to me how much Kubuntu needs to care about Canonical emplyees beyond the one.
<Nightrose> ScottK: we should care if we want to change that number ;-)
<nixternal> there is potential for that, but if our reports say "merging, updating, fixing bugs", then where is the worth in that? we can't go by the to prove we are worthy of being a valid project
<ScottK> Nightrose: I think that'll change based on support contracts sold, not report writing.
<nixternal> plus, I use those reports for the release notes
<nixternal> it makes hunting on my part much easier
<santiago-ve> @now
<ubottu> santiago-ve: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 04 2008, 23:30:33 - Next meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board in 1 hour 29 minutes
<nixternal> but if I am the only one that really cares about them, then let it rest
<Riddell> I'd like to see us have reports
 * Nightrose cares about them as well - at least a little
<yuriy> nixternal: i think prodding people a little a couple days before they are due will be enough
<nixternal> yuriy: it isn't, been trying that for 3 months now
<nixternal> you work on something the 1st, come the 20th you already forgot
<Riddell> but it is another bit of administrata that is hard to find enthusiasm for when the time comes
<yuriy> i wasn't aware the kubuntu team does reports other than release notes until i went poking through your revamped wiki
<nixternal> and then after the release notes are out and the reports are complete, people are like "hey what about this.'
<Riddell> but I think other teams are in a similar situation
<nixternal> Riddell: I have no problem managing the reports, I have been doing it since we started pretty much
<santiago-ve> sorry for being late guys...
<nixternal> Riddell: also another thing I thought of, was Hobbsee was our community manager, and since she has gone to the dark side, were there any plans on keeping that open for someone, or just letting it go
<hacktick> @time
<ubottu> hacktick: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 04 2008, 23:34:25 - Next meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board in 1 hour 25 minutes
<Riddell> if someone wants it, sure
<nixternal> Riddell: and yes, other teams are in that same situation in regards to the reports, but we don't want to be like those teams, we want to be #1
<nixternal> what were the exact roles as a community manager?
<Riddell> you'd need to ask Hobbsee
<Riddell> point of contact mostly
<nixternal> anyone you would like to appoint or just toss it out there for anybody?
<Riddell> I don't think there's any answer to the report issue, unless someone is keen to do it, it's just a case of poking harder at the end of the month
<Riddell> nixternal: I'm not all that fussed
<nixternal> k
<nixternal> any other points/
<Riddell> I'm thinking we're done for this meeting
<santiago-ve> Hey
<nixternal> woo
<nixternal> @now
<ubottu> nixternal: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 04 2008, 23:39:10 - Next meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board in 1 hour 20 minutes
<Riddell> santiago-ve: hey?
<nixternal> OK, that Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board is tonight for those of you wondering!!!
<n0rman> :)
<ScottK> seele: Is the MD meeting still on tonight?
<santiago-ve> Riddell, meanwhile i learn how to package and stuff... i would like to contribute to the kubuntu website~
<a|wen> nixternal: someone has to excercise ubottu ;)
<santiago-ve> i've talked about that with nixternal before~
<Riddell> santiago-ve: still waiting on sysadmin for the new website to be launched
 * Riddell will poke about that tomorrow
<yuriy> nixternal: for teams, you made the wiki page https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Teams and I think it would be helpful for people to add themselves to it as contacts
<Riddell> santiago-ve: seen https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuIntrepidWebsite ?
<seele> ScottK: yes at 8
<yuriy> but don't see a  need to formalize it
<ScottK> seele: OK.  I'm still the only one in the channel, so I wondered.
<Riddell> yuriy: that sounds good
<santiago-ve> Riddell, aye...
<a|wen> Riddell: what about adding the teams wiki-page to topic in #kubuntu-devel ?
<seele> ScottK: yeah, md peeps dont tend to sit on irc
<Riddell> a|wen: go for it
<a|wen> Riddell: it should be done through ubottu right?
<Riddell> a|wen: no, it's a free topic
<Riddell> meeting over, thanks all, let's move to #kubuntu-devel for anything more
<nixternal> Pretto, n0rman, LaRoza, brandonperry, hacktick: MEMBERSHIP MEETING IN 1 HOUR AND 15 MINUTES!
<Pretto> nixternal, thanks
<n0rman> nixternal: thnx :)
<nixternal> if you know anyone else I didn't just highlight, let them know
<nixternal> I made an error earlier by thinking it wasn't tonight
<n0rman> ok :) ehehehe
<n0rman> np
<Pretto> nixternal, hehhe.. as i said to you earlier :)
<nixternal> don't know what I was thinking
<nixternal> I saw June 5 and thought tomorrow
<Pretto> nixternal, that ETC/UTC is a bit confusing
<Pretto> nixternal, i lost the last meeting this way too
<nixternal> make sure your wiki's are rockin' !
<n0rman> i supposed that mine is rockin :P i hope :P
<Pretto> n0rman, if i change something now i can mess it all :)
<n0rman> :S
<n0rman> :P
<Andre_Gondim> @now
<ubottu> Andre_Gondim: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 05 2008, 00:01:02 - Next meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board in 58 minutes
<Pretto> @now
<ubottu> Pretto: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 05 2008, 00:14:38 - Next meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board in 45 minutes
<leogg> @schedule managua
<ubottu> leogg: Schedule for America/Managua: 04 Jun 19:00: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 07:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 14:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 15:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 04:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 05:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
<n0rman> ?
<Pretto> 07:00? changed again?
<Pretto> @now
<ubottu> Pretto: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 05 2008, 00:18:15 - Next meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board in 41 minutes
<Pretto> no :)
<n0rman> nop
<Pretto> 07:00 is for Desktop Team
<leogg> Pretto, it's GMT-6 time
<Pretto> leogg, ok.. here is GMT-3
<LaRoza> Why can't times be all the same?
<LaRoza> I'd glady take the month to get used to it...
<nickellery> so that people with different schedules or are busy at a certain time have a chance to come to the meeting
<LaRoza> I mean around the world
<nickellery> ooh
<nickellery> sorry
<LaRoza> Its alright
<nickellery> so that we can see in the afternoon :D
<LaRoza> Misunderstandings are common in text only environments
<Pretto> i lost last meeting due to etc/utc misunderstood
<nickellery> im terrible at that
<nickellery> And I always have trouble trusting www.timeanddate.com
<LaRoza> I came on this channel 4 hours early I think to avoid missing it
<nickellery> Don't know why...
<LaRoza> There might be a storm coming, if my internet goes out I'm sorry
<hacktick> :)
<Pretto> LaRoza, here is running now
<Pretto> ops
<Pretto> raining
<LaRoza> Where is "here" for you?
<LaRoza> I live in USA, Pennsylvania
<n0rman> :P
<jacob> LaRoza: same here. rain coming *and* my radio receiver box is failing. perfect combination!
<Pretto> Laney, Brazil, Alagoas
<vorian> LaRoza: Pennsylvania? awesome
<LaRoza> vorian: Awesome for a particular reason?
<LaRoza> Call of nature...brb
<jacob> LaRoza: means you live next to the greatest state in the US! :D (awaits state-based flamewar)
<LaRoza> Hopefully, you are not referring to New Jersey!
<jacob> LaRoza: oh, no.
<LaRoza> PA isn't a state, it is a commonwealth by the way
<LaRoza> (Ohio, I know)
<nosrednaekim> NJ! yes!
<jacob> think southwest
 * nosrednaekim is a proud member of that  wonderful loco team :)
<jacob> ohio loco ftw.. though our team has been pretty quiet lately.
<LaRoza> The storm is coming...
<LaRoza> I hope I can stay, internet already is slowing down for me
<Pretto> LaRoza, i hope that i don't loose the power force
<nickellery> 20 more minutes~
<nickellery> !
<Pretto> @now
<ubottu> Pretto: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 05 2008, 00:49:29 - Next meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board in 10 minutes
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30 UTC: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
<cody-somerville> wee!
<jacob> ubottu is excited, changing the topic early and all
<ubottu> jacob: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<OgMaciel> hey there effie_jayx
<nixternal> OK, if you are going for membership tonight, make sure you wiki pages are rockin' and get your supporters ready :)
<nixternal> oh no
<nixternal> OgMaciel: what are you doing here?
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<OgMaciel> nixternal: making sure YOU stay out of trouble
<nixternal> this is an Ubuntu Membership deal, not a rPath/Foresight Membership :)
<Pretto> nixternal, OgMaciel is my support :)
<nixternal> Pretto: -1
<n0rman> :)
<Pretto> nixternal, hahhahha
<nixternal> OgMaciel: he thinks I am joking :P
<OgMaciel> :P
 * OgMaciel knows nixternal has got his green shirt underneath
<nixternal> OgMaciel: I am wearing an rPath shirt actually :)
<Pretto> nixternal, hey... don't let me down before start :(
<OgMaciel> hehe
<fitoria> welcome alexio44
<nixternal> hey man, I am an appliance dev now, and seeing I haven't gotten a Cleversafe t-shirt, gotta wear the next best thing
<OgMaciel> nixternal: good choice
<alexio44> hi fitoria ;)
<nixternal> OgMaciel: speaking of Cleversafe and rPath, I am gonna be talking to you guys more than likely one day soon on some rBuilder and rMirror lovin'
<OgMaciel> nixternal: we missed you here in Raleigh last month
<OgMaciel> cool
<nixternal> I will make the next one indeed
 * OgMaciel is neck deep in rBuilder land
<OgMaciel> QA
<mneptok> RDU + summer = pain
<nickellery> hey all
<OgMaciel> yup
<OgMaciel> 90++ today
<nixternal> rBuilder, even though propriecrap, is the way to go
<jkeyes0> yeah, F20/20 was a lot of fun, OgMaciel
<OgMaciel> 98+ tomorrow
<vorian> hello world!
<nixternal> oh man, jkeyes0 is even in here
<OgMaciel> jkeyes0: you said it man
 * brandonperry is here
<nixternal> wth, you all are spying
<mneptok> OgMaciel: it's the "relative heat index" that'll kill ya
<OgMaciel> etank: is here too
<jkeyes0> :) I'm here to support awalton__
<awalton__> \o/ supporters!
<nixternal> etank is running Kubuntu, don't let him full you
<alexio44> o.O
<nixternal> fool too
<hacktick> Il sopport everyone, although Im not a member :)
<OgMaciel> mneptok: good thing we have good AC
<etank> sup all
<Rocket2DMn> we got some supporters for bodhi_zazen and LaRoza here
<etank> nixternal: blasphemy
<nixternal> boo on you
<mneptok> OgMaciel: "alternative condo?"
<nickellery> @now
<ubottu> nickellery: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 05 2008, 00:57:17 - Current meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
<etank> hehe
<awalton__> I've seen it in person!
<LaRoza> Rocket2DMn: Thanks
<awalton__> nice foresight desktop.
<OgMaciel> mneptok: huh?
<hacktick> ubottus time is wrong...
<nixternal> awalton__: you goin' for Ubuntu Membership? :P
<OgMaciel> it is 88 degrees now
<awalton__> nixternal, indeed
<mneptok> OgMaciel: joking. "another place to live until RDU is restored to non-Venus-like conditions."
<nixternal> don't make me send ya packin' to #foresight :P
<etank> awalton__: you can't say the f******** word in this chan
<OgMaciel> mneptok: hahahaha
<awalton__> nixternal, hah, I don't use foresight ;)
<nosrednaekim> haha
<alexio44> !suse
<etank> aahh nixternal idd it too
<ubottu> Other !Linux distributions besides !Ubuntu include: Debian, Mepis (using !APT); RedHat, Fedora, SUSE, Mandriva (using !RPM); Gentoo, Slackware (using other packaging systems)
<nixternal> hehe, awalton__ I do :)
 * OgMaciel shows his 2 crutches to nixternal
<nixternal> wasabi Technoviking
<effie_jayx> Hello everyone
<nixternal> oh no, kung-fu crutches!
<Technoviking> wasabi!!!!! nixternal
<OgMaciel> waaaaapow
<mneptok> OgMaciel: stop that. we all know you're faking. ;)
<nixternal> mmm wasabi
<Technoviking> true true
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<awalton__> everybody was kung-fu fighting..
 * cody-somerville prances around.
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> wth cody
<OgMaciel> those cats were... errr
<mneptok> tasty?
<nixternal> eww
<nixternal> hahahaha
 * OgMaciel drools
 * vorian peers at vor-ubuntu 
<mneptok> so, before things get started, can i suggest that a commitment is made to handle $NUMBER of applications, and anyone below the cut-off can leave? keeps people from sitting through a whole meeting for nothing.
<nixternal> vorian: I did the same
<mneptok> not that i'm bitter, mind you. >:P
<vorian> :)
<nixternal> mneptok: I want them all cleared tonight!
<Andre_Gondim> @now
<ubottu> Andre_Gondim: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 05 2008, 01:00:46 - Current meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
<nixternal> no more leftovers
 * vorian hugs mneptok 
 * vor-ubuntu apologizes to vorian
<OgMaciel> Andre_Gondim: get a watch  :P
<vorian> vor-ubuntu: no need :)
 * Joeb454 notices the tension between vorian and vor-ubuntu :)
<effie_jayx> So do i
<cody-somerville> hmm?
<vorian> hehe
<Pretto> Andre_Gondim, look at the top right corner of your screen :)
<nixternal> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:01. The chair is nixternal.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nixternal> whoa
<nixternal> it worked
<vorian> yays
<OgMaciel> niiice
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Nick Ellery for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Nick Ellery for Ubuntu Member
<nixternal> nickellery: you up first to get you on your way
<nickellery> alright!
<nickellery> Hi all, my name is Nick Ellery, and I am a resident of Vancouver, Canada.
 * chuckf is here too
<nickellery> I currently contribute to Ubuntu as an en_CA translator, answer tracker, laptop tester, and as a member of the Ubuntu Documentation Team.
 * n0rman here 2
<nickellery> Recently, I began working on Launchpad documentation too.
<nickellery> I also participated in Tuesdayâs Hugs for Bugs day here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20080603
<nickellery> For the Documentation Team, I currently work as a technical reviewer.
<nickellery> My job is to review the system documentation currently in development, review it, and submit patches to be committed.
<nickellery> A full list of every page Iâve reviewed can be view here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/TechReviewStatus
<nickellery> My plans for the future include getting more involved in bug triaging and joining the ubuntu-bugcontrol team, becoming a member of the ubuntu-doc-core team which has commit rights, and increasing activity on the forums.
<nickellery> My wiki page:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Cloudfx
<nickellery> My Launchpad page:  https://launchpad.net/~nick.ellery
<nickellery> Links for examples of my various contributions can be found on my Wiki page.
<nickellery> Thanks!
<nixternal> I can vouge for nickellery's doc work as he has been one of the few students to join up, contribute, not get bored, and stick around
<nickellery> thanks nixternal :)
<Technoviking> good karma
<cody-somerville> I can vouch that my inbox gets filled up with bug mail from nickellery :P
<nixternal> what is wrong with <xref linkend="foo-is-bar" /> when foo-is-bar is located outside of a book and in its own article?
<effie_jayx> You seem pretty active in bugs. Congrats
<nixternal> just kiddin' :)
<OgMaciel> :P
<nickellery> nixternal, -_- you scared me for a second
<nixternal> On Deck: n0rman, awalton__, and then mneptok as they were bumped last week...get ready :)
 * Pretto is waiting too
<nixternal> Pretto: ya, sorry, you and cgregan to be exact
<Technoviking> Looks like afine body of work to me, anyone else have any questions?
<cody-somerville> nickellery, What was your biggest challenge yet?
<nickellery> I would say that would be learning about the Documentation Repository.
<nickellery> I'm not involved in any programming, and therefore it was something quite new to me
<nixternal> haha, mine too (/me isn't the biggest bzr fan yet)
<nixternal> our repos can definitely be tricky since we have switched from svn a while back
<nixternal> [VOTE]
<MootBot> Please vote on: .
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cody-somerville> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<_MMA_> +1 Solid contributions all around.
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<effie_jayx> +1 for his work :-)
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<nixternal> Rocket2DMn: can you please do a -1 since you can't vote
<Rocket2DMn> yessir, it said public votes
<vorian> (please don't vote if you aren't on the membership board)  :)
<Rocket2DMn> -1
 * cody-somerville giggles.
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 7
<cody-somerville> W O O T!
<nixternal> congrats nickellery! and welcome!
<nickellery> awesome!
<vorian> welcome nickellery :)
<nickellery> thanks to everyone!!!
<nickellery> :)
<alexio44> congrats nickellery :)
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Norman Garcia for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Norman Garcia for Ubuntu Member
<nixternal> n0rman: please introduce yourself
<n0rman> Hi, im norman, 23 years old, actually im the main coordinator of the ubuntu-ni loco team, i was in this team since the beginning. Im a active person in my country, always organizing events and giving conferences like the linxutour, flisol 2007 and 2008, dfd 2008, sfd07.
<n0rman>    	 	 	 	 	 	   Participating in these events give me the opportunity to talk to people about FOSS and let them know about the benefits of using it, also talk with enterprises, NGO and help them to migrate to linux.
<n0rman>   
<n0rman> I know that my particpation on LP.net is vbery low, thats because all my particpation inot the commiunity its physical uin my country.
<leogg> I want to cheer for n0rman... he is a great leader and an inspiration for us all in ubuntu-ni
<n0rman> Wiki page : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/norm
<nixternal> definitely have some really nice feedback
<jwendell> don't we have an order?
<n0rman> LP.net page: https://launchpad.net/~naguilarg
<nixternal> <start south/central american invasion>
<nixternal> :)
<Technoviking> jwendell: we are getting the people that we could not finish last week first
 * OgMaciel gets nakesd
<effie_jayx> I can attest n0rman's great work in the nicaragua team. The marketing and promoting in event is awesome
<jwendell> Technoviking, Pretto is the first one
<nixternal> wow, totally digging the radio, tv, and newspaper stuff....nice!
<_MMA_> Yeah. That's rad.
<Pretto> jwendell, at least in wiki page :p
<effie_jayx> Nicaragua won sfd prize last year :-)
<mneptok> jwendell: Pretto was not on last week's agenda
<Pretto> mneptok, yes, i was
<leogg> effie_jayx, yes!! and n0rman is the one to blame :)
<jwendell> mneptok, he was
<nixternal> Technoviking: ya, we are getting those that were bumped last week
<mneptok> Pretto: were you present?
<n0rman> and i was one of the main coordinator for the SFD 07 xD
<Technoviking> please keep on topic or it will take longer
<Technoviking> :)
<nixternal> n0rman: is on right now
<Pretto> mneptok, no, i was traveling without net connection
<mneptok> Pretto: hence you not being first in line :)
<OgMaciel> focus
<Pretto> mneptok, as i said, i am the first in wiki page :) hehehhe
<nixternal> I am definitely digging n0rman's contribus, future plans, and his community support
<Technoviking> me too looks like a good body of work
<nixternal> I am digging the fact I can't spell
<OgMaciel> like that is news
<OgMaciel> :P
<nixternal> hah
<OgMaciel> couldn't help it
<OgMaciel> it's the Latin blood
<alexio44> op 4 n0rman >> 120% on Logistics and Support for all the linux events / projects
<nixternal> [VOTE] Norman Garcia for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Norman Garcia for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<_MMA_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<effie_jayx> +1 viva nicaragua
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cody-somerville> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<leogg> felicidades n0rman!!
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<nixternal> congrats n0rman and welcome!!!
<leogg> .ni kicks butt!!!
<mneptok> viva Somoza! oh .... uhhh ... oops.
<nickellery> congrats!!!
<doctormo> only 7 minutes late ;-)
<alexio44> congrats n0rman ..... cheers !!!!! :D
<viperhoot> congrats n0rman !!!
<Technoviking> congrats
<n0rman> thanks!! xD
<vorian> welcome n0rman :)
<Pretto> n0rman, \o/
<Technoviking> who's next
<n0rman> :)
<n0rman> thnsk
<fitoria> congratulations n0rman
<nixternal> [TOPIC] A. Walton for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  A. Walton for Ubuntu Member
<awalton__> hurray
<nixternal> awalton__: introduce yourself :)
<ZehRique> congrats norman
<awalton__> Please try to bear with me, I've been down with the flu for almost a week now and I'm not quite back to 100%. URIs: https://edge.launchpad.net/~awalton https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Awalton
<awalton__> My name is Andrew Walton, as stated on my wiki page I go online as awalton and in real life mostly by my last name. I am 21 years old, and a resident of Central Kentucky and FreeNode IRC. If you have a question about anything, feel free to ask. Odds are good I'll get back to you immediately. ;)
<awalton__> I have been a Debian-derivative user since Corel Linux, worked for a bit on the failed UserLinux project and now an Ubuntu user and evangelist since Warty. In the past six months I have been involved in Ubuntu development, working on the GNOME desktop, most specifically the Nautilus file manager, GVFS and GLib, and I do bug triage and patching on these components both upstream and downstream for Ubuntu. My real talent is i
<awalton__> n writing code, but I try my best to be active in many other areas as well (occasionally in the Ubuntu forums where I try to get users to file bugs so we can track them, and often answering questions on IRC). I am also an active member of my local community group, the Ubuntu Kentucky LoCo, and the Bluegrass Linux User Group.
<vorian> yikes :)
<nixternal> rock on!
<awalton__> My future plans for Ubuntu include joining the Ubuntu Desktop team and working on the future direction of the desktop, with issues such as FreeDesktop.org integration/migration and fixing long-standing user interface bugs being my immediate highest priorities. Maybe in a not-so-far-off future joining an Open Source company so that I can work on the software I love full-time.
<nixternal> old school :)
<awalton__> I had asked Sebastien Bacher to be here, but it's late in his timezone I believe. As such, I know at least a couple of members of my LoCo are here to cheer me on and mneptok can speak to my UbuntuGNOME-love if he wishes. Thank you for your time!
<nixternal> ya, seb can't be here
<nixternal> GNOME developer ey?
 * mneptok is happy to confirm awalton__'s sustained contributions to GNOME
<nixternal> chill vorian!
<awalton__> there we so.. sorry about the chan-spam.
<Technoviking> awalton__: looks like most of your work is upstream in Gnome?
<nixternal> hehe
<Technoviking> awalton__: Upstreams rock!!!!
<mneptok> in fact, awalton__ was one of the first Ubuntu devs to get his ssh key replaced. or, rather, try to have it replaced. ;)
<awalton__> Technoviking, somewhat so, but I fix a lot of problems that only come to my attention through Ubuntu.
<nixternal> haha
<cody-somerville> awalton__, what do you think of ref counting mechanism in glib?
<awalton__> hehe, I try to be on the ball.
<jcastro> gnomers rock!
<jkeyes0> awalton__ would be an amazing addition to the ubuntu members. he has made some great contributions to Nautilus and GVFS, and is a valued member of BGLUG and the Kentucky ubuntu LoCo team
<nixternal> jcastro: watch it!
<vorian> hehe
<mneptok> awalton__: like a trained chihuahua?
<OgMaciel> oh noes! jcastro is not watching the game? :)
<awalton__> cody-somerville, pretty happy with it. I've been a fan of generic reference counting over garbage collection for a long time though.
<awalton__> mneptok, ;)
<nixternal> OgMaciel: cuz he knows the Pengs are gonna win
<awalton__> cody-somerville, my biggest problem with glib is the underabuse of properties in the code above it.
<nixternal> PENGUINS ALWAYS WIN!
<OgMaciel> nixternal: word!
 * etank cheers for awalton__ 
<etank> he is an active member in the KY LoCo team always available to help users
<nosrednaekim> nixternal: are you always this disruptive in your own meetings?:P
<OgMaciel> game 7 baby
<nixternal> nosrednaekim: yes
<awalton__> gobject has a lot of really interesting facilities that people won't exploit for some reason...
<nixternal> wow, awalton__ you have some impressive pimps....I mean supporters
 * Technoviking points and commands focus :)
<mneptok> awalton__: "inertia"
<nixternal> haha
<doctormo> awalton__: except in python :-P
<cody-somerville> awalton__, Do you feel there is a good landscape of static analysis tools available to developers to automatically detect unsinked refs?
<nixternal> I don't
<awalton__> cody-somerville, unfortunately I don't think there are.
<nixternal> cody-somerville: was that a trick question btw? :)
<awalton__> cody-somerville, I also dislike the floating-ref thing, but that's a whole other issue ;)
<nixternal> awalton__: any plans on getting into packaging?
<awalton__> nixternal, I do, I'm just not sure how to get started. I've been reading up on how to do it though, and I would love to become an active packager during the Intrepid cycle.
<nixternal> rock!
<cody-somerville> awalton__, Have you thought about getting involved with Xubuntu? :)
<nixternal> how about your 5-a-day? (jcastro there you go with some pimpage, make sure you tell daniel :))
<etank> nixternal: but he is a GNOME guy so dont hold that against him
<nixternal> etank: to late
<etank> dang
<awalton__> cody-somerville, I use a lot of your guys code in some of my private work, so I very well might. I think what's good for XUbuntu is also good for Ubuntu and GNOME, so anywhere I can lend a hand, I will try.
<nixternal> [VOTE] A. Walton for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  A. Walton for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<_MMA_> +1
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cody-somerville> +1 (+2 if he'll contribute to Xubuntu ;])
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<nixternal> congrats and welcome awalton__ !!!
<awalton__> \o/ rock!
<etank> +1 (prolly dont count though)
<jkeyes0> congrats awalton__!
<Technoviking> congrats awalton__
<etank> woot awalton__
<awalton__> thanks everyone!!!
<vorian> welcome awalton__ :)
<ZehRique> Wow! awalton__ !
<doctormo> I wonder who does count... tribe
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Kurt von Finck for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kurt von Finck for Ubuntu Member
<cody-somerville> +1
<nixternal> mneptok: introduce yourself please
<cody-somerville> oops.
<_MMA_> -1
<mneptok> My name is Kurt and I'm a Gemini. I like long walks on the beach, snuggling, and sacrificing the unworthy to Cthulu, my dark master of the many tentacles. My hands are bloody, but my conscience is clean. They all deserved it.
<_MMA_> :P
<mneptok> I'm old and bitter, but I clean up nicely. I'm active in a lot of different aspects of the FLOSS world in general and Ubuntu specifically. Mostly because it does not require daily showering or pants.
<nixternal> gahaha, I knew that was bound to happen!
<ajmitch> oh no, not mneptok
<mneptok> Most people around here know enough about me to know I have made significant contributions to Ubuntu and its community. These same people are familiar enough with me to want this all to be over quickly so they can drink enough to avoid the nightmares. With that, I place myself at your mercies ...
<mneptok> In seriousness, I don't think I'm a stranger to most people here. And I expend no small amount of effort making that the case. I try to be a friendly, approachable face for Canonical on IRC and elsewhere in the community. I'm certainly a "people person," and getting me to stop working on free software is more a challenge than getting me to start.
<mneptok> I also want to emphasize, in the strongest possible terms, that I base my candidacy entirely upon my contributions to the FLOSS community in general, and Ubuntu in particular. If my Canonical employee status is to factor into any decisions, I would prefer to withdraw my candidacy. This point is of paramount importance to me.
<alexio44> o.O
<ajmitch> not a stranger, just strange :)
<jrib> understatement...
<nixternal> I have know mneptok for to long, err for a while :)  nothing bad I can say at all and he has been a tremendous help in a ton of places
 * mneptok presents a freshly polished halo
 * ajmitch would certainly vouch for mneptok's longstanding contributions
<nixternal> any nay sayers for mneptok?
<nixternal> ;)
<cody-somerville> mneptok,  What. is. love?
<mneptok> cody-somerville: baby, don't hurt me ....
 * awalton__ hugs mneptok, the mind taker.
<nixternal> ajmitch: ya right, over 2 years and he is just now going for membership
 * _MMA_ has know him since UDS-MTV and thinks he's a fine fellow. :P
<_MMA_> nixternal: Seriously. :)
<nixternal> [VOTE] Kurt von Finck for Ubuntu Member
 * mneptok procrastinates sometimes.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Kurt von Finck for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cody-somerville> +1 (Love is like racing across the frozen tundra on a snowmobile which flips over, trapping you underneath. At night, the ice-weasels come.)
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<mneptok> cody-somerville: you assume i escaped the grue.
<_MMA_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<nixternal> congrats and welcome mneptok!!!
<vorian> congrats mneptok! :)
<nixternal> about darn time honestly!
<doctormo> nixternal: not biased then?
<Technoviking> boo!!! and I mean congrats
<nixternal> doctormo: not at all :)
<mneptok> \o/
 * mneptok feels the love
<bimberi> gah, missed the chance to cheer mneptok (well... pre-vote)
<_MMA_> Its because of mneptok I can say "quebecois" correctly. :P
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Laudeci Oliveira for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Laudeci Oliveira for Ubuntu Member
<OgMaciel> mneptok was a big help getting into buses at UDS-MTV  :)
<nixternal> Pretto: please introduce yourself?
 * MagicFab just got here too late to prevent mneptok's membership to happen...
<Pretto> Hi friends. I have been involved with Open Source and with the Ubuntu Brazilian community since May 2005, I am using my free time to help people that is starting using Ubuntu in #ubuntu-br IRC from freenode
<mneptok> OgMaciel: hurry up, you FAKER!
<nixternal> MagicFab: hahahaha
<mneptok> >:P
<OgMaciel> hehehe
<Pretto> also I am helping to make brazilian users have Ubuntu in their native language translating packages in launchpad as you can see in my launchpad https://translations.launchpad.net/~laudeci/ my work in translation could be noticed here https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+topcontributors, making me the second better scored brazilian guy in translation, I hope I could beat Andre_Gondim soon ;).
<effie_jayx> mneptok, i always thought you were a member :p
<Pretto> I also work with python trying to make applications that could improve Ubuntu usability and easyness, I am actualy working with two projects, APTonCD https://launchpad.net/aptoncd as main developer, and IUG https://edge.launchpad.net/iug and helping ogmaciel in billreminder project http://billreminder.sf.net/.
<Pretto> Also, IÂ´m Brazilian Planeta Member http://planeta.ubuntu-br.org and very active member in the Brazilian LocoTeam. I want to continue contributing to Ubuntu for a long time, not only translating, but making use of my knowledge to help new users on how to get the best from Ubuntu and making applications that could be incorporated  in it.
<Andre_Gondim> Pretto, you will ;)
<Pretto> My UbuntuÂ´s wiki is http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Pretto my Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~laudeci
<OgMaciel> Pretto: http://code.google.com/p/billreminder actually :P
<nixternal> any supporters for Pretto except for OgMaciel
<OgMaciel> haha
<ZehRique> me
<ZehRique> lol
<Andre_Gondim> Pretto, has my suport
<Pretto> hehhehehhe
<effie_jayx> Pretto, your contributions with splications is quite impressive.
<nixternal> Pretto: what are your plans for making a NON-GTK backend for BillReminder so I can go ahead and do the Qt4 frontend for it?
<cropalato> me
<OgMaciel> nixternal: :P
<nixternal> OgMaciel: you knew that one was comin' :)
<_MMA_> Yeah. Og dont count. Darn Foresight user. :P
<Pretto> nixternal, this is up to OgMaciel
<jwendell> I fully second Pretto on his candidacy
<Technoviking> how come no package love for billminder
<nixternal> Technoviking: cuz you haven't packaged it yet? :)
<OgMaciel> Technoviking: there's a deb available
<nixternal> actually, there is a deb available
<OgMaciel> focus
<nixternal> haha
<OgMaciel> hehe
<effie_jayx> Pretto, do you do any motu work atm?
 * OgMaciel basques in the pimping
<Pretto> :)
<OgMaciel> effie_jayx: he should
<Technoviking> nixternal: stop using logic againist me :)
<nixternal> hahahahahahha
<Pretto> effie_jayx, no, i was just coding and packaging was the Rafael ProenÃ§a work
<ajmitch> no matter where I go, nixternal is stirring up trouble
<nixternal> Pretto: are you and OgMaciel roommates? I just noticed you and him working on APTonCD as well
<Pretto> effie_jayx, but i expect to become a MOTU one day
<OgMaciel> nixternal: Pretto is my twin brother
<nixternal> OgMaciel can't be that good to work with :)
<Pretto> nixternal, hahahhha
<nixternal> OgMaciel: huh?
<OgMaciel> hehe
<_MMA_> Pretto: Has the grey text issue been fixed in AptOnCD?
<effie_jayx> Pretto, any immediate plans?
<nixternal> nice try
<OgMaciel> nixternal: you forgot you're my evil brother
<nixternal> OgMaciel: he looks way better than you in that one pic I saw, but he is missing the kung-fu crutches
<OgMaciel> hahaha
<Pretto> _MMA_, yes.. actualy we just need that Rafael ProenÃ§a merge the code solving it
<nixternal> Pretto: nice karma!
<_MMA_> Nice
<OgMaciel> seriously though, Pretto is a great developer
<OgMaciel> he *should* get more involved with MOTU stuff
<nixternal> [VOTE] Laudeci Oliveira for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Laudeci Oliveira for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<OgMaciel> enough translations... who speaks Portuguese any way?
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<jwendell> actually development != packaging...
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<_MMA_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<OgMaciel> I know jwendell
<hacktick> OgMaciel: I speak portuguese :)
<jwendell> packaging is a quite harder :)
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
 * OgMaciel needs someone to get BillReminder into Ubuntu land
<OgMaciel> hacktick: hehehe
<nixternal> cody-somerville?
<cody-somerville> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<nixternal> congrats and welcome Pretto!!!
<hacktick> gratz
<jwendell> Pretto, wowowowowow
<vorian> congras Pretto :)
<cropalato> Pretto, congrats. Where is the beer?
<Andre_Gondim> Pretto, congrats ;)
<n0rman> congrats Pretto!!!!
<n0rman> :P
<ZehRique> Congrats Pretto !
<Pretto> thank you guys.. i am very very happy to be one of you
<emma> Congratulations Pretto :) â¥
<hacktick> paranbens!
<effie_jayx> Congrats
<hacktick> -n
<Andre_Gondim> Pretto, this bill it's your
<n0rman> good work!
<Pretto> emma, thank you
<ZehRique> Good guy!
<Technoviking> congrats
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Chris Gregan for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Chris Gregan for Ubuntu Member
<_MMA_> \m/
<cropalato> mandou bem negÃ£o
<nixternal> cgregan: please introduce yourself?
<ZehRique> hehe
 * OgMaciel goes back to his hockey gane
<OgMaciel> game too
<OgMaciel> night all
<cgregan> Hello folks....I'm a QA Engineer for Ubuntu Mobile Edition
<nixternal> cgregan: where at in Maryland are you?
<cgregan> Although my experience with FLOSS started as a Open source consultant
<cgregan> Frederick MD
<nixternal> nice, I lived in southern Maryland, St. Mary's County and DC
<nixternal> another one with a sick amount of karma
<cgregan> I was promoting Open source in schools, and non-profits for a few years before landing a job with Canonical
 * _MMA_ moved from P.G. County to Raleigh N.C. and misses D.C. every day. :(
<cgregan> I am the owner of several projects
<nixternal> cgregan: how is the mobile community (ie. non-Canonical) side of Ubuntu?
<Technoviking> cgregan: sounds like Ibex will be exciting for Ubuntu Mobile
<nixternal> Technoviking: you saw those screenshots? mmmm hawt!
<cgregan> nixternal: No mobile outside of Canonical since my positions in proprietary comapnies on the west coast
<Technoviking> nixternal: I want it now:)
<nixternal> cgregan: any plans for a Mobile Kubuntu Edition? If not, what do I need to do in order to start something like that?
<cgregan> I was a user and promoter of Ubuntu through my consulting...and it seemed like a good move
<nixternal> I should have just asked the latter part of that question
<cgregan> nixternal: Your best bet is to wait for our first release...we have plans to make it more community oriented after that
<Technoviking> great karma
<cgregan> right now it is a bit scattered
<cgregan> Which is why I am here
<cgregan> I need to keep better information out there
<cgregan> blogging on planet..etc.
<nixternal> rock on
<nixternal> anyone here to support cgregan?
<cgregan> I set up public testing on the wiki to help and I manage the bugs for UME as well...but the information is still limited
<chuckf> I can say that he's been a help at events for the MD Loco team
<nixternal> w00t MD LOCO!!!
<nixternal> speaking of MD LoCo, are you guys at the meeting right now?
<cgregan> Last hour
<HardDisk> evening, or should I say good morning (4:45am my time)
<nixternal> hehe
<chuckf> you missed it
<brandonperry> good morning HardDisk
<nixternal> alrighty, voting time!
<HardDisk> hehe brandonperry you here too :)
<brandonperry> yeah, I am appying today
<nixternal> [VOTE] Chris Gregan for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Chris Gregan for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<brandonperry> :-)
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<_MMA_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<nixternal> cody-somerville?
<mdz> hmm, MootBot's example of private voting does not match the preceding text
<HardDisk> I'm just here to vote for someone here then I'm off to bed.
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> congrats and welcome cgregan!!!
<vorian> welcome cgregan :)
<effie_jayx> cgregan,  congrats
<nixternal> mdz: it seems a bit off
<ZehRique> Congrats cgregan!
<cgregan> Thanks! I look forward to sharing a ton of info with the community in the future!
<Pretto> congrats cgregan
<Technoviking> congrats
<doctormo> cgregan: you needed membership to do that?
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Henrique Machado for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Henrique Machado for Ubuntu Member
<cgregan> Doctormo: no...but it is an excellent way
<nixternal> ZehRique: please introduce yourself
<ZehRique> Thanks.
<ZehRique> Hi all. My name is Henrique Paulino Machado, and I live in Jaboticabal, Sao Paulo, Brazil.
<ZehRique> My wiki page is: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HenriquePMachado
<ZehRique> My profile on launchpad is at: https://edge.launchpad.net/~zehrique
<ZehRique> I am contributor to the Brazilian Porguese Translation of Ubuntu's Gnome version and I'm talking with Marco Ferragina about his cGMail applet, to help him with some code. (His applet is excellent for me).
<ZehRique> In my city, as I said on the wiki, I'm planning to attend to local Demo Days and InstallFests to help promoting Ubuntu and the free software.
<ZehRique> When I have free time, I use to give support on the #ubuntu-br channel, here on freenode.
<nixternal> chuckf: you are next, sorry I skipped you
<chuckf> np
<ZehRique> I was recently approved as a GNOME translator into the pt_BR branch too.
<ZehRique> I am planning a small software with a friend, written in Python, to interact with some models of the DLINK ADSL modems, for helping users configure and get info on their device within the Gnome environment.
<nixternal> anyone here to pimp ZehRique?
 * Andre_Gondim suports ZehRique 
 * Pretto too
<Technoviking> nixternal: that sounds wrong
<nixternal> hehe
<HardDisk> Technoviking disapproves!
<HardDisk> don't hurt him now :)
<nixternal> gahahahahaha, I just now looked at what I said...I meant support, honestly I did
<hacktick> ^^
<RoAkSoAx> lol
<nixternal> ZehRique: are you guys involved with the 5-a-day stuff down there Brazil?
<_MMA_> ZehRique: How much have you translated for GNOME? And how long have you been a part of that team?
<ZehRique> nixternal, yes.
<cody-somerville> ZehRique, So it appears that your translation efforts are rather recent
<HardDisk> ZehRique, what exactly are you planning for the DLINK project?
<ZehRique> _MMA_, i approval is recent on the GNOME team.
<vorian> ZehRique: what are you doing for the gnome team?
<ZehRique> HardDisk, I intend to do a sotware to control the modem from the GNOME Environment. Without using the browser.
<HardDisk> ZehRique, how will that be better than using webui?
<ZehRique> vorian, I am helping translating it into Brazilian Portuguese yet.
<mneptok> ZehRique: you have not been approved for GNOME SVN access, though. or do you have a ticket waiting?
<Andre_Gondim> ZehRique does good translations
<ZehRique> HardDisk, well. I think if i put an icon on GNOME systray we could give instant access to some status.
<HardDisk> ok thank you.
<ZehRique> mneptok, I currently have no work at SVN.
<mneptok> ZehRique: OK, just wanted to make sure you weren't waiting on a GNOME RT approval.
<mneptok> ZehRique: in most cases you won;t get one. we try to keep a single maintainer per language
<ZehRique> mneptok, I will be more active after the 2.24.0 startup
 * mneptok nods
<cody-somerville> ZehRique, it seems like you're off to a good start but I think we're looking for applicants to be more well rounded and have a longer period of sustained contribution.
<ZehRique> cody-somerville, ok.
<cody-somerville> If you'd like any help on further directions on how to do just that, feel free to contact any member of the board and we'll be sure to point you in the right direction.
<nixternal> ZehRique: would you mind if we asked you to come back at a later time and give membership a shot again once you have a bit more contributions under your belt?
<effie_jayx> ZehRique,  we think your inittial contributions are leading you to where its at, but we feel we need to see more sustanable contributions
<vorian> ZehRique: yes, please continue with the great translation work
<nixternal> ie. you are on the bug squad with a low bug karma, work that up and you will be good
<nixternal> more translations would be wonderful as well
<ZehRique> OK,1
<ZehRique> ok!
<effie_jayx> ZehRique,  a bit of more bug tackling ... should you need any help ping me :D
<Technoviking> ZehRique: Please come back after you get some more work under your belt, it is a great start
<mneptok> ZehRique: be sure to introduce yourself (if you haven't already) to OgMaciel and fatalerror on GIMPnet
<cody-somerville> woot!
<ZehRique> Technoviking, no problem. :)
<Pretto> ZehRique, keep on working, you will get there
<nixternal> [VOTE] Request that Henrique Machado revisit the board for membership in the future
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Request that Henrique Machado revisit the board for membership in the future.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cody-somerville> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cody-somerville. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<HardDisk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from HardDisk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<_MMA_> +1 For now. It's a great start but like others I'd like to see a more ï»¿sustained contribution.
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<HardDisk> Good luck ZehRique
<Technoviking> ZehRique: I look forward to seeing you again for membership
<cody-somerville> And I think that wraps up this meeting!
<ZehRique> Thanks, guys!
<doctormo> Interesting negative vote avoidance... curious, the social aspects must be studied.
<Andre_Gondim> ZehRique, congrats
<nixternal> ZehRique: we really appreciate how you have started and I would say you continue and within a month of more contributions we would definitely welcome you back!
<leftyb> uh
<brandonperry> yeah
<HardDisk> Next on the list
<bimberi> doctormo: +1 :)
<leftyb> did we run out of time?
<nixternal> leftyb: not yet :)
<nixternal> one second
<brandonperry> hrm
<Pretto> hacktick, i think
<nixternal> HardDisk: could you please refrain from voting
<HardDisk> sorry.
<Joeb454> leftyb, it's been 1 hour, I know that much
<nixternal> no prob
<HardDisk> Didn't know non-members couldn't vote, my fault.
<leftyb> not sure how long these usually go
<Joeb454> me either :)
<xander21c> who's next guys??
<doctormo> nixternal: you might want to fix the bot
<nixternal> [TOPIC] LaRoza for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  LaRoza for Ubuntu Member
<nixternal> LaRoza: you around?
<LaRoza> Yes
<LaRoza> Hello. You may remember from the last meeting. I would like to apologize for my conduct at that time. I was very tired and distracted and wasn't feeling well, and I shouldn't have gone to the meeting knowing I was not in the right frame of mind. My wiki page is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LaRoza and my launchpd page is: https://launchpad.net/~laroza
<nixternal> groovy, we really appreciate you coming back and taking care of that!
<vorian> w00t LaRoza!
<effie_jayx> LaRoza,  we are glad to have you here today
<LaRoza> I myself wasn't happy when I read the transcript, and am not pleased with my conduct
<nixternal> LaRoza: we pretty much got everything, so I am going to propose we go ahead and call a vote...board?
 * jacob cheers for LaRoza: very helpful member of the forum community, always willing to dedicate time towards helping someone in the late hours at night when no one else wants to
<Technoviking> anymore support for LaRoza
<effie_jayx> LaRoza,  I would ask only about thse extra things you just documented, I notices de testimonials have gone up
 * LaRoza thanks jacob 
 * _MMA_ looks back at the logs from last meeting.
<bodhi_zazen> +1 Laroza
<effie_jayx> very significant words from very respectable people
<Technoviking> once again my strong support for Laroza
<nixternal> effie_jayx: ditto
<Joeb454> Not a member, but I can't say much more than jacob has already said
<LaRoza> What do you want to know? Some of them are here
 * Old_Soldier thanks Laroza for his contributions on the UCF
<Alan_M> +1 LaRoza
<nixternal> hehe, LaRoza if you only had all of this last week...feel the love! feel the love!
 * LaRoza thanks all that showed their support 
<nixternal> no doubt!
<nixternal> [VOTE] LaRoza for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  LaRoza for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<effie_jayx> LaRoza,  I do have one questio
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<LaRoza> effie_jayx: Yes?
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<effie_jayx> or vote :D
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<nixternal> congrats and welcome LaRoza!!! \o/
<overdrank> congrats LaRoza
<jacob> whooooo! congrats LaRoza!!!
<LaRoza> Thanks, I appreciate it.
<Rocket2DMn> congrats LaRoza !
<Technoviking> congrats LaRoza
<Joeb454> congrats LaRoza :)
<LaRoza> effie_jayx: Is your question still wanting to be asked?
<vorian> CONGRATS LAROZA!!!!
<Old_Soldier> congrats laroza :0
<LaRoza> Thanks vorian
<bodhi_zazen> wOOt
<effie_jayx> LaRoza,  nah ;)
<LaRoza> Good luck bodhi_zazen
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Bodhi.zazen for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bodhi.zazen for Ubuntu Member
<nixternal> bodhi_zazen: your turn :)
<vorian> w00t bodhi_zazen!!!!!
<bodhi_zazen> Permission to flood ?
<effie_jayx> LaRoza,  keep holding the fort over at the forums... :D
<Old_Soldier> go Bodhi :)
<LaRoza> effie_jayx: Why? I got it and I don't need to do anything now
<Pretto> LaRoza, welcome :)
<LaRoza> (joking...)
<Rocket2DMn> * UF Beginners Team cheers *
<nixternal> bodhi_zazen: permission denied :) keep it simple, give us the hot stuff :)
<Alan_M> go bodhi_zazen ! :)
<bodhi_zazen> Bodhi.zazen here, thanks everyone.
<bodhi_zazen> As many here may know I am active on the forums, not so much on IRC.
<bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bodhi6   http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=89054
<bodhi_zazen> Sigbar : http://ubuntuforums.org/signaturepics/sigpic89054_9.gif
<bodhi_zazen> I would like a set of those orange ubuntu member rings please, my daughters favorite color is orange you see ... lol
<bodhi_zazen> Seriously though, I can see now my application is overdue and I apologize. I think of myself as low key (although not in a sig bar kind of way) and although I do promote Ubuntu I do not like to self promote (any way to hide post count? :lolflag:)
<bodhi_zazen> It has been an honor to help with the forums, and before I forget, the Beginner Team ROCKS (you know who you are).
<bodhi_zazen> So why now ? I started a LUG and would like to hand out bodhi.zazen Ubuntu cards ? More important, I hope any semblance of âleadershipâ I may carry can be used to encourage new (and not so new) users to become more involved with the community.
<bodhi_zazen> I use an alias as I am a professional, and although it is not a secret, I do not want to advertise it either (nor allow the profession to divide the community).
<nixternal> bodhi_zazen: you have awesome support! great documentation! and a sweet picture on your wiki :)
<nixternal> bodhi_zazen: you aren't the only one using an alias and it is totally understandable
<nixternal> bodhi_zazen: what do you do for the Hardened team?
<Andre_Gondim> netsplit
<nixternal> there we go
<nixternal> holy smokes, we lost everyone
<leftyb> ooo .. bad timing for a split
<the-stace> woops server down
<bodhi_zazen> so limited travel that way
<leftyb> there we go :)
<Alan_M> wow, there we go
<jacob> great timing, eh?
<effie_jayx> bodhi_zazen, ahhh I see, but not you personally the teams in you are involved with?
<bodhi_zazen> I have Ubuntu CD's from Launchpad
<bodhi_zazen> Give 'em out to prfessional contacts
<bodhi_zazen> Give professional talks, 100 % Ubuntu (GO Open Office)
<nixternal> oi
<nixternal> that sucked
<nixternal> what did I miss?
<bodhi_zazen> effie_jayx, come again
<vorian> I have to say that the work you do with the Beginners on Ubuntu Forums is FANTASTIC!
<nixternal> bodhi_zazen: what do you do for the Hardened team?
<vorian> nixternal: nothing
<nixternal> bodhi_zazen: you have awesome support! great documentation! and a sweet picture on your wiki :)
<bodhi_zazen> for the hardening team, nothing
<nixternal> just in case none of my stuff made it
<bodhi_zazen> I would like to raise the awareness of secuity
<bodhi_zazen> so I joined the team is all
<Rocket2DMn> he's been preaching security to us for quite awhile
<vorian> bodhi_zazen: do you have the link handy on your server security info?
<nixternal> bodhi_zazen: hrmm, UDSF huh? how come not Ubuntu Documentation? do you write for UDSF?
<bodhi_zazen> yes
<bodhi_zazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=510812
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=510812
<nixternal> whoa
<bodhi_zazen> I started learning to wiki on the UDSF
<bodhi_zazen> Now I wiki with Ubuntu
<nixternal> ahh, well we could use on the documentation team
<bodhi_zazen> I also promote the ubutnu wiki with the team
<nixternal> you obviously have the doc experience and I really like what I have seen doc wise from you
<bodhi_zazen> I am on the wiki mailing list
<bodhi_zazen> and I refer Beginner team members to the wiki team
<nixternal> rock on!
<HardDisk> I don't think bod even needs a vote :)
<bodhi_zazen> I listed a few wiki pages I feel I made significant contributions to
<nixternal> ya, looked at those and they are all good, all of your doc links are good
<doctormo> now now, everyone, even god needs a vote to become a member ;-)
<HardDisk> lol
<bodhi_zazen> Well, to be honest, that is what I like to do
<nixternal> [VOTE] Bodhi.zazen for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Bodhi.zazen for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<bodhi_zazen> and I like to see people grow into Ubuntu
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<HardDisk> he documents like Michelangelo
<_MMA_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<nixternal> congrats and welcome bodhi_zazen!!!
<LaRoza> Congrat bodhi_zazen!
<overdrank> w00t bodhi_zazen
<vorian> Congrats and welcome bodhi_zazen !!!!!!
<the-stace> wooooooohoooooooooo!!!!!!!!!
<jacob> congrats bodhi_zazen!!!! :D
<HardDisk> def deserves it
<Old_Soldier> Grats Bodhi :) !!
<the-stace> Congrats bodhi_zazen!!!!!!
<Technoviking> congrats bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you everyone
<Rocket2DMn> congrats bodhi_zazen
<ZehRique> congrats bodhi_zazen
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Mike Rushton for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mike Rushton for Ubuntu Member
<nixternal> xander21c: your turn :)
<doctormo> woot
<xander21c> Hi :)
<xander21c> Hello my name is Michael Garrido Saucedo (aka xander21c, I live in Lima - Peru Also part of Ubuntu Peru LoCO as event cordinator.
<xander21c> Ubuntu user since Dapper, currently using Ubuntu at work and Xubuntu at home.
<doctormo> leftyb's turn
<leftyb> which one?
<leftyb> I can wait if need be
<nixternal> solid damnit!
<xander21c> My contributions are mostly advocacy at our own events and other LUGs events
<xander21c> also going around malls leaving brochoures about ubuntu next to ubuntu installed pc. Really active at Ubuntu Peru web site as co-administrator and mailing list moderator
<nixternal> xander21c: one sec, it is leftyb's turn
<xander21c> ok
<nixternal> I made a typo there
<xander21c> sorry :)
<nixternal> you are next
<nixternal> no problem :) sorry
<viperhoot> hmmm :s
<leftyb> :)
<nixternal> to many Mike/Michaels in a row for me, I can only count to 1
<nixternal> leftyb: your turn, sorry
<leftyb> i'll try and be quick :)
<doctormo> After this I can play Savage2!
<leftyb> My name is Mike Rushton, also know as leftyfb. I reside in North Eastern Massachusetts and help run the MA LoCo team. I have been using an promoting linux and FOSS since the mid 90's. I have spent a lot of time and effort planning and making sure our installfests are fun and educational and go off without a hitch. I have made many contributions to our teams wiki, keeping the events and meetings in order as well as a few outsid
<leftyb> e wiki pages here and there. I helped take orders and keep organized the ubuntu case badge project our team, let by Martin Owens(doctormo) initiated last year. I have also done up tshirts for our team and to be sold at the installfests.
<RoAkSoAx> nixternal, according to the wiki it's xander21c's turn xD
<nixternal> leftyb: umm, where is your wiki page?
<nixternal> RoAkSoAx: ya, but I typoed the topic
<HardDisk> I know leftyb (Mike Rushton) from his unofficial support channel #ubuntu on efnet.  Being from Egypt, I have to say he has allowed me the opportunity to be part of his unofficial team and wish him a great future but hopefully as an official ubuntu member this time.
<leftyb> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/leftyfb
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/leftyfb
<nixternal> hah, I was at LeftyB
<nixternal> sorry
<leftyb> I keep ubuntu cd's on me at all times and take opportunities to explain ubuntu and how it can make people's computing lives easier and more enjoyable. Every Tuesday night I volunteer at the South End Technology Center teaching ubuntu to the general public along with other Ubuntu MA LoCo members. Most of my contributions revolve around spreading the word in my professional home consulting and through the teachings at the tech c
<leftyb> enter. I'm very passionate about sharing ubuntu with the rest of the world and have many ideas and plans to promote it as much as possible.
<leftyb> I don't actually have much else put into words ... i'm not the best with putting things down on paper as most others
<jrib> I know leftyb from the MA loco.  He's one of the most active members.  Always keeps things together and is very helpful and friendly.
<doctormo> I'd also like to say that leftyb helps me debug and test networking aspects of some of the projects I code.
<nixternal> nice tattoo :)
<leftyb> ;)
<_MMA_> I'd *almost* give a +1 just for the tattoo. :P
<nixternal> wow, good comments and supporters!
<nixternal> you are the 2nd person I know with that tattoo
<effie_jayx> nixternal,  indeed
<doctormo> He's one of the most dedicated and passionate ubuntu supporters we have, who is fair and balanced as they come.
<HardDisk> In addition to what I wrote, we've not just become good ubuntu colleagues, but friends, he's shown me some nice tips and tricks over the time I had known him.
<leftyb> I help with projects here and there as much as I can even though i'm not a developer. Right now i'm helping with the carrier project (pidgin fork)
<HardDisk> and I hope he comes visit me in Egypt one day :)
<turk_Max> i have met leftyb a couple of times and found him to be a passionate ubuntu user, happy to discuss and help out
<nixternal> so you are a LoCo freak I take it
<yuriy> leftyb has been one of the most contributing members of the MA LoCo
<nixternal> leftyb: if you get RMS on the team, definitely +1 :)
<doctormo> Now I think he under plays his role at SETC, we go there, we teach but he also looks after all the refurbished computers, installing ubuntu and setting up peoples computers. they are then given to the poor through their scheme.
<nixternal> oh man, you have yuriy on your side
<_MMA_> leftyb: How long have you been part of the Mass LoCo? (sorry if I missed that)
<leftyb> nixternal: verymuch so ... i'm actually interested in and have brought up bringing together our LoCo team, the NH team, local LUGs and other local FOSS groups to start a Boston open source conference ... it's a lot of work but I think we can pull it off :)
<leftyb> _MMA_: since the release of Feisty .. so April of last year
<_MMA_> k
<leftyb> i've been using ubuntu since Dapper, Debian for 5 years and linux for 14
<nixternal> [VOTE] Mike Rushton for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Mike Rushton for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<_MMA_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<vorian> yeah, the tatt is major bonus points
<Technoviking> +1
<HardDisk> haha
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<HardDisk> congrats man :)
<nixternal> congrats and welcome leftyb!!!
<leftyb> :)
<jrib> congrats leftyb
<maccam94> congratulations leftyb!
<HardDisk> I knew you'd make it
<Deviousdragen> congrats leftyfb
<turk_Max> leftyb: congrats
<maccam94> sorry i was too late to vouch for you
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Michael Garrido for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Michael Garrido for Ubuntu Member
<HardDisk> leftyb, you owe me a beer
<nixternal> xander21c: now its your turn :) thanks for being patient with my booboo
<xander21c> ok :) thats me
<xander21c>       Hello my name is Michael Garrido Saucedo (aka xander21c, I live in Lima - Peru Also part of Ubuntu Peru LoCO as event cordinator.
<xander21c> Ubuntu user since Dapper, currently using Ubuntu at work and Xubuntu at home.
<_MMA_> vorian: A "Circle of friends" would show more dedication though. ;)
<xander21c> My contributions are mostly advocacy at our own events and other LUGs events *http://picasaweb.google.com/xander21c/InstallPartyLima
<xander21c> *http://picasaweb.google.com/xander21c/UbuntuPeruEnElFesoli *http://picasaweb.google.com/xander21c/4HorasDeSoftwareLibreLinurp
<xander21c> *http://picasaweb.google.com/xander21c/PrimerFestivalDeSoftwareLibreUNACINUX *http://picasaweb.google.com/xander21c/UbuntuHardyReleasePartyLima also going around malls leaving brochoures about ubuntu next to ubuntu installed pc. Really active at Ubuntu Peru web site as co-administrator and mailing list moderator
<nixternal> rockin'!
<xander21c> Here is my wiki https://wiki.ubuntu.com/xander21c
<nixternal> nice testimonials!
<xander21c> and my LP https://edge.launchpad.net/~xander21c
<viperhoot> i can certify xander21c's great work, specilly planning and participating in events representing to Ubuntu PerÃº , thanks to him we have organized local talks and Installfests in Lima.
<nixternal> ooh, you even helped Ubuntu Docs :)
<RoAkSoAx> I support xander21c for his great contributions to the LoCo Team.. Thanks to him is that we've had such many events... he is the guy who goes around the city making the preparations for the events
<nixternal> viperhoot: rock on! you guys totally freakin' rock down there...I am so envious
<vorian> wow, some impressive goals :)
<nixternal> no doubt
<xander21c> thanks,
<nixternal> I just have one problem
<nixternal> I didn't get an Ubuntu Peru t-shirt :)
<nixternal> hahaha
<xander21c> jaj :)
<effie_jayx> nixternal,  I can attest his work. the ubuntu peru community can definetelly rely on his work and dedication, he is a very all aorund guy doing good avocacy and trying to bridge the ubuntu spanish teams to follow and feel the ubuntu spirit
<vorian> xander21c: how do you work with Retailers?
<RoAkSoAx> nixternal, xander21c is your guy.. he is in charge of them :P
<doctormo> nixternal: I got one :-P
<xander21c> I made friend of some clearks
<nixternal> man, seems you are in charge of *printing* in general...you have a connection down there?
<viperhoot> nixternal: haha yes
<RoAkSoAx> nixternal, leave him your address so that he can send you one :P
<vorian> xander21c: so, what do they do?
<xander21c> throught them i contact their boss , still on conversation
 * Pretto wants a tshirt from Peru too..
<vorian> xander21c: what is your plan with them? seeing as they are open?
<xander21c> but sound interrested
<vorian> good good
<viperhoot> ubuntu-pe t-shirts for all! .D
<xander21c> they also let me install a couple of pcs and Laptops
<xander21c> of the exhibitors section
<Pretto> _MMA_, do you have a second?
<nixternal> very impressive xander21c
<vorian> That's wonderful.  Not many retailers are open to such things
<vorian> good work
<xander21c> vorian: of course, that why i trying to put up the e-learning fase
<nixternal> [VOTE] Michael Garrido for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Michael Garrido for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nixternal> _MMA_?
<xander21c> picture of a PC installed in Saga Fallabella mall http://picasaweb.google.com/xander21c/InstallPartyLimaOrganizacion/photo#5125768455019892274
<_MMA_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<_MMA_> (sorry)
<nixternal> congrats and welcome xander21c!!!
<Pretto> xander21c, welcome :)
<viperhoot> wuuhuuuu
<vorian> Welcome xander21c!
<nixternal> is Alan Munson around?
<RoAkSoAx> congrats xander21c !!!!
<Alan_M> yes i am
<viperhoot> congrats xander21c
<xander21c> Thanks a lot  :)
<nixternal> k, one sec Alan_M
<Alan_M> sure :)
<nosrednaekim> aaaaahhhh.... /me drools over all the new slaves we are recruiting
<Rocket2DMn> go Alan_M :)
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Alan Munson for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alan Munson for Ubuntu Member
<nixternal> Alan_M: introduce yourself please :)
<Alan_M> Hello everyone my name is Alan Munson.
<Alan_M> I am a resident of Denham Springs, Louisiana and have been using Linux for the last few years spradically.
 * xander21c my brother i kicking of the PC
<xander21c> bye
<Alan_M> I am a member of the Ubuntu Forums beginner team, have been for about 1 year or so under bodhi_zazen's guidance.
<Alan_M> My launchpad profile can be located at https://launchpad.net/~speeddemon8803 and my Wiki page can be found at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Speeddemon8803.
<nixternal> nice testimonials! I really like Old_Soldier's words!
<jacob> Alan_M is an excellent candidate for membership. he's an excellent helper with bodhi.zazen on both irc and the forums.
<nixternal> hehe, like how you got your nickname :)
<bodhi_zazen> I support Alan_M 's membership
<Alan_M> thanks :)
<Old_Soldier> Alan is a solid member of out UCF team :)
<Rocket2DMn> I didn't have a chance to write on Alan_M 's wiki.  I can vouch for his continued support in the UF community
<bodhi_zazen> He has been an enormous asset to the team
<nixternal> rock on!
<Alan_M> I have helped users from all areas of the spectrum with aspects of Ubuntu, some major contributions, some just minor things.
<nixternal> Alan_M: what do you think your future with Ubuntu and the community looks like? Any specific interests?
 * pleia2 arrives
<nixternal> \o/ pleia2 !!! :)
 * nosrednaekim cheers for pleia2
<nosrednaekim> !
<Alan_M> Well, because I am a paraplegic, i really wish to get Ubuntu's accessability more noted, help out our physically impaired users :)
<nixternal> rock on! that is something that needs some help definitely and any help you have to offer would be greatly appreciated!
<Alan_M> I just love helping out, its what ive done for a long time, if im not here helping, im helping elsewhere spreading the love and joys of Linux.
<Alan_M> Getting the misinformed a little more educated and stuff.
<the-stace> Alan has helped tons of times and he's still helping when I need a hand or 2
<Alan_M> I have helped with a script for Amarok called Sabre, it allows you to control your laptop/desktop's access with a bluetooth enabled device such as a cell phone.
<vorian> Alan_M: what involement have you had with the LA LoCo team?
<nixternal> haha, my buddy loves that script by the way, assuming it is the same script
<Alan_M> vorian, well i attempted to be active in it, yet i had surgery and didnt get a chance to email anybody about that, so it was given to someone else (im really not too upset now about it though.)
<Alan_M> nixternal, thats great! :D
<effie_jayx> Alan_M, are you working in any accesibility projects upstream? gnome or kde accesibility teams?
<vorian> Alan_M: what do you mean by "given" to someone else?
<Technoviking> Alan_M: Looks like your still new to the beginneers team
<Alan_M> well, vorian, i wasnt able to check my emails and stuff....inactivity made the team unstable, i wasnt around to adminstrate and do those kinds of duties.
<Old_Soldier> Technoviking:   alan is a new user account he had it reset by the forum admins
<_MMA_> Old_Soldier: That's odd. I didnt think that happened. Why the reset?
<Technoviking> Old_Soldier: so he has more than 84 posts
<Rocket2DMn> i think Alan_M was one of the early members of the beginners team
<Alan_M> Technoviking, not much more, but just a little over this.
<Rocket2DMn> bodhi_zazen, if you are around, can you please comment?
<vorian> Alan_M: so naturally, you have been working with the LA team then, considering your interest in the team?
<effie_jayx> Alan_M, are you working in any accesibility projects upstream? gnome or kde accesibility teams?
<Alan_M> effie_jayx, no
<bodhi_zazen> Alan_M, has been with the beginner team for just under a year
 * vorian talks to himself
<Alan_M> vorian, the beginners-team has been taking up a lot of my time.
<nixternal> nothing new with that :)
<bodhi_zazen> Keep in mind he has a medical condition
<vorian> alrighty then
<Alan_M> im sorry vorian, i didnt mean to look like i was ignoring you sir.
<vorian> Alan_M: no need to call me sir :)
<Alan_M> vorian, ok :)
<nixternal> yes sir!
<vorian> >.>
<Alan_M> I am constantly trying to contribute more and more, but due to my medical condition, it becomes hard sometimes as i am constantly in and out of the hospitals.
<vorian> Alan_M: link to your current forum nick again please?  :)
<nixternal> speeddemon8803
<Alan_M> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=127564
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=127564
<vorian> ah, ok
<vorian> Alan_M: I think you are well on your way to membership.
<Technoviking> Alan_M: Alan you have a great start, and we understand your medical condition, but I feel you still need some more work under your belt
<vorian> keep working with bodhi_zazen, and you'll get there in no time!  :)
<Alan_M> Ok, :)
<Alan_M> thanks for your time guys :)
<Technoviking> Alan_M: I would be glad to help you in anyway on the forums
<Alan_M> Technoviking, thanks! :)
<nixternal> Alan_M: I am on the fence with this honestly as I really like everything you have done and would like to see a bit more...my recommendation is come back soon with a bit more contribs and I would be so happy to give you my +1
<effie_jayx> Alan_M,  please do come back soon :D
<nixternal> Alan_M: talk to TheMuso on IRC, he is in charge of accessibility in Ubuntu iirc
<effie_jayx> Alan_M,  please do consider helping out gnome and kde make accessibility rock in the "FREE" world
<Alan_M> Ok guys :)
<_MMA_> Alan_M: If you would like to help with accessibility issues please talk to TheMuso. He has a vision impairment and works to improve ï»¿accessibility.
<nixternal> [VOTE] Request that Alan Munson returns soon for Ubuntu Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Request that Alan Munson returns soon for Ubuntu Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<effie_jayx> Alan_M,  there is an open invitation to participation and YOU can make a difference
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<_MMA_> gah. Damn. I type slow.
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<_MMA_> +1
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> +1 received from _MMA_. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<nixternal> doh
<nixternal> haha, sorry _MMA_ :)
<_MMA_> ;)
<Pretto> Alan_M, keep the good work... i will wait to see you here again
<Alan_M> Pretto, thanks :)
<nixternal> Alan_M: definitely though, please do not let this get you down, I want you to come back in a month and do this again...I think you are very well on your way
<Technoviking> Alan_M: I look forward to seeing you again soon.
<nixternal> please get in touch with TheMuso if you are seriously interested in accessibility
<_MMA_> Alan_M: I would also say work on the wiki page a bit.
<nixternal> ditto
<Alan_M> MMA,, nixternal thanks, i will.
<nixternal> Alan_M: if you do a wheelchair in linux, let me know so I can get one for my cousin too! that would rock!
<cody-somerville> nixternal, ditto means right back at you :P
<nixternal> ditto means "the same" :)
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Brandon Perry for Ubuntu Member
<Alan_M> nixternal, yeah, im trying lol
<MootBot> New Topic:  Brandon Perry for Ubuntu Member
<brandonperry> cool
<nixternal> brandonperry: your turn :)
<brandonperry> Alright, my name is Brandon Perry (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BrandonPerry), I am 19, and I have been the Dallas/Fort Worth LoCo Team Leader since mid-2007.
<brandonperry> I am active on the Banshee, ClamAV, gbrainy, and Mono mailing lists and have written puzzles and translated for gbrainy. I also maintain a couple small projects, most notably the ClamAV LiveCD (based on Hardy, was Edgy).
<brandonperry> Late last year, I started a project called OCAM, or One Computer A Month, where I donated at least one computer running Ubuntu to families who couldn't afford a new computer. It was powered purely by donations, which dried up after about 3 months, but during those months, I was able to donate 8 PC's. I still donate when I can.
<brandonperry> I am the webmaster for http://www.texas-ubuntu.org, which is a site trying to bring together all other LoCo's in Texas, and has proved to be a bit more difficult than we imagined.
<brandonperry> I am trying to introduce Edubuntu into the school systems around Dallas\Fort Worth and have donated a couple computers to teachers, whom love what it has to offer.
<brandonperry> Like n0rman, my LP.net participation isn't high, but most of my time is spent on mailing lists, IRC, or IRL ;-).
<brandonperry> Hopefully, next year, the D/FW Team will have a small booth at QuakeCon, giving out Ubuntu CD's and swag to computer geeks from around the world. I also hope that as we grow, or outreach to schools will grow as well.
<brandonperry> that's it :-)
<nixternal> brandonperry: will you do me a favor at QuakeCon?
<brandonperry> maybe ? ;-)
<mneptok> whoa! Brendan Perry! I LOVE DEAD CAN DANCE!
<nixternal> smakc Kyle Bennet for me and tell him he still owes me big time!
<brandonperry> haha, ok
<nixternal> hey, with clamav, have you worked with Scott Kitterman (ScottK) at all?
<brandonperry> no, I haven't
<pleia2> how about sgran over in Debian?
<brandonperry> a little with sgran
 * pleia2 nods
<brandonperry> ScottK isn't in IRC much
<_MMA_> brandonperry: He sure is. ;)
<nixternal> brandonperry: scottk lives on irc, I work with him for about 12 hours a day :)
<effie_jayx> brandonperry,  he is a regular in #ubuntu-motu
<_MMA_> And #ubuntu-devel
<brandonperry> I haven't seen in him in #clamav
<nixternal> and #kubuntu-devel :)
<brandonperry> I don't frequent those channels :-)
<nixternal> I believe scott maintains clamav in both Ubuntu and Debian
<nixternal> anyone here to support brandonperry's application this evening?
<ScottK> nixternal: I maintain it in Ubuntu and help out the Debian maintainer
<brandonperry> haha, hello ScottK
<nxvl> @schedule Lima
<ubottu> nxvl: Schedule for America/Lima: Current meeting: Americas Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 05 Jun 08:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 15:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 16:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 05:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 06:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board
<ScottK> hello brandonperry
<pleia2> nixternal: sgran maintains debian
<ScottK> He's looking for more help though.
<nixternal> brandonperry: what exactly do you do for Ubuntu at this point in time?
<brandonperry> Right now, I am the Ubuntu DFW team leader (not ubuntu software specfic)
<nixternal> ahh, you are the leader
<nixternal> that's right, I remember you now
<nixternal> what is the current status of the LoCo team? been active much?
<brandonperry> we have a meeting once a month
<ScottK> brandonperry: Are you interested at all in helping out with clamav maintenance in Ubuntu or Debian?
<vorian> brandonperry: how's the uniting of Texas going?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Jun 13:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30 UTC: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team
<brandonperry> me, my brother, and another guy are passing out CD's at all the high schools since it is the last week
<pleia2> cool
<brandonperry> ScottK: I would love too, I didn't know it was a problem
<nixternal> ahh, here we go, the Ubuntu Texas website...that's where you update everything :)
<ScottK> brandonperry: There's a lot to do.
<brandonperry> vorian: right now, the dallas and the houston teams are the really active ones
<brandonperry> el paso is getting there
<brandonperry> but with the size of texas, it is really difficult to cooridinate things
<brandonperry> ScottK: definitely, should I talk to sgran?
<vorian> yeah, very difficult it would seem
<brandonperry> or you, even ?
<nixternal> brandonperry: from the Texas website I see from you, "We try to get people to join the site, post on the blogs, etc... It is just difficult to get people to stay. :-/" - what do you find the most difficult with keeping people around?
<ScottK> brandonperry: See https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-clamav and ping me on IRC if you can help.  New clamav release on Monday will no doubt bring us another wave of security patches to deal with.
<nixternal> I founded the Ubuntu Chicago team, and our original 25 members are still super active, with about 100 coming and going due to being students
<brandonperry> nixternal: people join the site from all over texas, but there aren't that many locos, so that just kind of join, then they have nothing to post about, no meetings or installfests to join in on
<nixternal> ahh, ya I totally know what you are talking about
<brandonperry> ScottK: will do ;-)
<pleia2> brandonperry: you say education is an interest but you don't have time right now - do you anticipate having time in the future? perhaps working with the edubuntu team directly until you can get to a point were working with schools is feasible?
<brandonperry> pleia2: now that it is summer, I can start talking to IT from the schools about maybe giving lectures or installing Ubuntu on some computers in the labs
<brandonperry> during the school year, you are on the school's time, which doesn't work
<brandonperry> but during the summer, the IT guys are pretty much free since they are setting things up for next year
 * pleia2 nods
<brandonperry> nixternal: Zelut and encryptz can vouch for me
<brandonperry> they just couldn't make it tonight
<ScottK> nixternal: BTW, it's Klamav that I maintain in both Ubuntu and Debian.
<brandonperry> pleia2: in working with the edubuntu team, I have definitely thought about it
<nixternal> clam, klam, its all the same to me these days :)
<effie_jayx> nixternal, shhhh qt boy :D
<nixternal> muhahaha
<brandonperry> it is just finding the time with all the other stuff, again, now that it is summer, I might be able to join in on some projects
<nixternal> [VOTE] Brandon Perry for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Brandon Perry for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<_MMA_> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from _MMA_. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Technoviking> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Technoviking. 4 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 4
<nixternal> congrats and welcome brandonperry!
<Pretto> brandonperry, welcome  :)
<pleia2> welcome brandonperry!
<brandonperry> thanks :-)
<nixternal> hey, I know it is hard to get the LoCo stuff rockin' espeically in your case, but don't give up man
<Andre_Gondim> brandonperry, congrats ;)
<vorian> congrats brandonperry :)
<brandonperry> nah, it can only get more fun nixternal
<nixternal> rock on, love that tude!
<brandonperry> thanks a lot everyone
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Martin Kossick for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> New Topic:  Martin Kossick for Ubuntu Member
<nixternal> hacktick: your turn :)
<effie_jayx> brandonperry,  get hacking :D
<hacktick> hey, I'll make this short :) My Name is Martin Kossick, I'm german and 20 years old
<_MMA_> brandonperry: Please work with ScottK on some ClamAv love. :)
<hacktick> my wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Mkossick my launchpad account: https://launchpad.net/~hacktick
<hacktick> "my" comunity was in Berlin, I organized lots of meetings and events there.
<Technoviking> hacktick: you live in Germany?
<hacktick> since august I'm in brazil, where it's harder for me to organize meetings (I prefer reallife for talking with other ubuntu users) I'm looking forwards to get back to Berlin, although I like brazilian beaches ;)
<nixternal> oh man, Daniel Holbach testified :)
<nixternal> great testimonials
<nixternal> oh man, Ubuntu Deutschland
<nixternal> is there anything you all haven't done or don't do?
<hacktick> he was the first other ubuntu user I got to know in real life
<nixternal> and you are on the e.V., that says a lot
<vorian> nifty wiki page
<hacktick> no it doesnt
<nixternal> hehe
<hacktick> you have to pay 12 e, thats all :)
<nixternal> how much did you pay then to join it :)
<nixternal> hahahaha
<hacktick> â¬
<_MMA_> hacktick: How long have you been a moderator on the mailing list?
<hacktick> hm
<hacktick> i think sinc we moved from google groups. that was last summer
<nixternal> hacktick: considering you know dholbach personally and he recommends you for membership, I would have expected major 5-a-day abuse from ya :)
<effie_jayx> hacktick,  you have a quite balanced initial groundings... what do you hope to focus more in the future?
<hacktick> sorry :)
<hacktick> 5-a-day started after I left Berlin :)
<effie_jayx> hacktick,  you have initial worki in bug nad translations
<effie_jayx> hacktick,  no need to be in berlin to have dholbach on your case boy ;)
<nixternal> ahh, you aren't in Berlin anymore...k, I was wondering the drastic change between ubuntu-de and ubuntu-brazil :)
<hacktick> effie_jayx: i think will concetrate more on the official german LoCo
<effie_jayx> hacktick, right. are you planing to go back to germany soon?
<hacktick> effie_jayx: I just did these translation in free time, never have been in a team
<effie_jayx> hacktick,  cool
<hacktick> effie_jayx: august 9th
<hacktick> but at the moment I think I have to fix some things here in brazil
<Pretto> effie_jayx, he is just enjoying the beache's hot water
<hacktick> lots of servers are offline dowwn here
<Pretto> :)
<pleia2> hacktick: you mention programming and development in the last of your future goals - any specific areas in mind? or timeframe?
<hacktick> I dont have specifiics in mind, sorry
<hacktick> I hope I find something :)
<hacktick> I like gnome, maybe i could start with some bugfixing, i have no idea :)
<hacktick> first things first...
<effie_jayx> hacktick,  good
<pleia2> the bug team always needs help
<nixternal> hacktick: What do you really want to contribute to in Ubuntu in the near future?
<effie_jayx> I see some great initial work
<effie_jayx> nice bug work, you got some translations going
<effie_jayx> excellent advocacy in LoCo work
<hacktick> nixternal: I want definetly get back to Berlin and continue my work there
<effie_jayx> hacktick,  I am not sure how much the board of the americas can help
<effie_jayx> since most of your work has been for the belrin team
<hacktick> sure
<effie_jayx> and it is where your heart it is at
<effie_jayx> Berlin
<hacktick> but I have testimonial that prove that work effie_jayx
<effie_jayx> hacktick,  I have seen it
<effie_jayx> hacktick,  but since you are not staying in the Americas side
<hacktick> ?
<hacktick> I am stayingg in SÃ£o Paulo
<effie_jayx> hacktick,  you are headed back home soon aren't you?
<hacktick> -g
<effie_jayx> 2 months?
<hacktick> yes.
<nixternal> [VOTE] Martin Kossick for Ubuntu Member
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Martin Kossick for Ubuntu Member.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<vorian> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vorian. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<effie_jayx> hacktick,  I was going to suggest you try for the meeting in for the European board
<effie_jayx> but the board seems to think your work in Europe is cool
<hacktick> effie_jayx: I missed the last european meeting
<_MMA_> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from _MMA_. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<effie_jayx> and we like European work :D
 * effie_jayx will remember getting a beer out of Seveas for approving a member for the European Board
<effie_jayx> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from effie_jayx. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 5
<pleia2> congrats hacktick!
<hacktick> thanks
<nixternal> congrats and welcome hacktick!!!
<vorian> Thanks Everyone!
<Pretto> hey hacktick welcome :)
<hacktick> long night :)
<nixternal> we cleared the candidates right?
<hacktick> obrigado Pretto
<Pretto> nixternal, yes
<vorian> YES!
<nixternal> [ENDMEETING]
<vorian> \O/
<nixternal> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 22:26.
<pleia2> :)
<nixternal> yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhooooooooooooooooooooo
<Pretto> nixternal, i have just only one question if you dont mind
<dinda> great job folks!
<vorian> Congrats to all the New Members!
<nixternal> congrats everyone! and for those of you who didn't get it tonight, please come back soon!!!
<vorian> NOW GET TO WORK!
<nixternal> Pretto: what's up?
<Technoviking> later all
<nixternal> hahaha, GET TO WORK NOW!!!
<nixternal> g'nite Technoviking, thanks!
<ajmitch> nixternal: yessir!
<vorian> nn Technoviking :)
<Pretto> i still dont know how to proceed to get email alias working
<vorian> Pretto: it will be a few days
<nixternal> Pretto: that will all kick in automatically within the next few days
<Pretto> nixternal, good, :)
<nixternal> <lpid>@ubuntu.com will be forwarded to your email account you login to LP with
<Pretto> thank you guys
<nixternal> so in say a couple of days, test it out by sending an email to yourself and see if you get it
<nixternal> no prob Pretto! congrats and keep up the awesome work!
<Pretto> thank you nixternal i will not be a ghost member
<effie_jayx> thank you all
<jcastro> congrats everyone!
<jcastro> new members, a stanley cup ... an awesome night!
<ajmitch> jcastro: dude!
<jcastro> ajmitch: dude!
<nxvl> are the log uploaded somewhere
<Seeker`> nxvl: Eventually
<Seeker`> nxvl: Hopefully in the next day or so, the person hosting the bot is having problems with their webhost atm
<nxvl> cause i wanted to read the log from last meeting
<nxvl> (and these one too)
<Seeker`> which is the "last meeting"?
<Seeker`> nxvl: There are logs for the meetings elsewhere
<Seeker`> !logs
<ubottu> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<Seeker`> I think they are updated at 1 minute past the hour
<persia> Rather, they are updated somewhere between 5 minutes before and 12 minutes after (that I've seen) depending on the vagaries of cron, server load, etc.
<hacktick> good night
 * nxvl HUGS Seeker` 
<nxvl> thnx for the info
<nxvl> :D
<ccm> lastlog MMA
<Zic> @schedule
<ubottu> Zic: Schedule for Etc/UTC: 05 Jun 13:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 06:00: Platform Team
<Zic> @schedule Paris
<ubottu> Zic: Schedule for Europe/Paris: 05 Jun 15:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 22:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 23:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 12:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 13:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 08:00: Platform Team
<Alan_M> Zic, ubottu's based on UTC right? (I mean its times its listing.)
<Zic> Yes, but I have some troubles to remember the number of your to add to have the french clock :)
<Zic> (+0200, +2h so)
<Zic> troubles because of the GMT based clock
<Alan_M> zic, yeah utc used to get me as well :D
<Zic> s/your/hours/ sorry
<Alan_M> yeah
<Seveas> Alan_M, you can ask for a localized schedule
<Seveas> '@scedule paris' gives paris times :)
<Alan_M> yeah, i figured :)
<Alan_M> well, now that my day has gone totally insane, i might go to bed.
 * Alan_M will be back in here im sure for the next Membership approval board meeting for Americas.
<Alan_M> nice talking to you again Seveas
<Alan_M> if not talking, seeing :)
<Seveas> :)
<jsgotangco> @schedule manila
<ubottu> jsgotangco: Schedule for Asia/Manila: 05 Jun 21:00: Desktop Team | 06 Jun 04:00: Security Team | 08 Jun 05:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 18:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 19:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 14:00: Platform Team
<sbc> What is the procedure for reserving this channel for a meeting? More specifically the Marketing Team would like to use this channel on June 7 21.00 UTC
<persia> sbc: The bot sets the topic based on the events listed on the fridge
<bimberi> @schedule utc
<ubottu> bimberi: Schedule for Etc/UTC: 05 Jun 13:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 20:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 06:00: Platform Team
<bimberi> sbc: Looks like it's been done :)
<sbc> bimberi: Nice :)
<sbc> thank you both.
<persia> sbc just be sure to always get it on the fridge.  Sometimes people forget, and there is a conflict.
<sbc> persia: This should be enough, right: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1503 ?
<persia> sbc: That's exactly what you need.  Many teams have rotating meetings, at different times of day so everyone on the planet can meet.  To make this work, someone on the team needs to be sure to keep the fridge updated with the time for the next meetings.
<persia> As some meetings are weekly, some fortnightly, and some monthly, there can be conflicts if people aren't careful.
<sbc> ok - got that. Thanks again.
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubottu> emgent: Schedule for Europe/Rome: 05 Jun 15:00: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 22:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 23:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 12:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 13:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 08:00: Platform Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Desktop Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30 UTC: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team
<kwwii> moin
<\sh> moins kwwii :)
<mvo> hi
<pitti> hi
<seb128> hey pitti
<MacSlow> hi there folks
<Keybuk> good afternoon
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I hope it was the right spot on the wiki to put agenda items (GTK+-issue) to discuss (first time I ever did that)
<Keybuk> as good as any other ;)
<Keybuk> MacSlow: I also look for them in activity summaries
<Keybuk> ok, I think we have everyone :p
<ted2> I think we shouldn't let the platform team beat us, so we should spend the entire meeting discussing luggage ;)
<MacSlow> ted2, oh :)
<Keybuk> ted2: heh, well, when teacher's away - the boys play
<ogra> :P
<seb128> MacSlow: listing agenda items in your activity mail is usually better so people can reply or comment on the list too
 * pitti confesses that he didn't manage to write up all specs, one is still left (guest account)
<pitti> hardy kept me way too busy :/
 * seb128 didn't write specs yet
<pitti> well, today is the deadline
<MacSlow> seb128, ah ok.. well I'll stick to that in the future
 * MacSlow still has much spec write-up pending
<seb128> pitti: ETOOMUCH, maintaining a stable and a unstable GNOME is just too much apparently :--
<MacSlow> too
<seb128> :-(
<pitti> we clearly need seb256!
<Keybuk> pitti: is it?
 * MacSlow blames gtk+-widgets
<pitti> Keybuk: that's what Steve's shiny release calendar says, anyway
<Keybuk> ah, I hadn't even started reviewing them yet ;)  with mdz and Colin both away, I suspect it's a dead deadline
<pitti> coincides with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule
<Keybuk> I was planning on suggesting specs should be reviewed next week
<pitti> ok, *phew*; I'm relieved :)
<seb128> GOOD ;-)
<seb128> ups
<seb128> good ;-)
<pitti> so we have time until Tuesday or so to write them?
<Keybuk> though I was going to quickly run down everyone's list today to make sure everyone knows which ones they're doing
<pitti> right, that would be good
<Keybuk> pitti: time until Thursday :)
<MacSlow> *phewÂ²*
<seb128> good idea indeed
<mvo> ++
<Keybuk> ok, I didn't see any agenda items other than Mirco's, so let's cover his first
<MacSlow> Ok
<Keybuk> MacSlow: freeze of GTK+ 2.14 at end of june, GtkStatusIcon and RGBA-issues need to be addressed, otherwise new RGBA-theme for intrepid might not make it
<MacSlow> so the issue is that for intrepid we would like to have a new GTK+-theme hopefully using RGBA-colormaps by default (e.g. murrine)... well as far as I know... but kwwii could probably give a more precise view on that
<kwwii> yes, that is exactly what we planned
<MacSlow> but before a GTK+-theme like that can be put in there are crashes with GtkStatusIcon to be fixed.
<kwwii> the main problem seems to be with the status icon/system-tray
<seb128> what is the issue there?
<kwwii> I do not understand the technical issues with that, I just know that there are some :-)
<MacSlow> seb128, BadMatch errors for system-tray because of the spec for embedding widget/windows in the panel
<seb128> well, that seems to simply be code bugs no?
<seb128> you have a whole cycle to write patches and get those accepted upstream ;-)
<seb128> or is there a particular issue?
<MacSlow> Ryan "desrt" Lortie wrote up an updated spec-proposal for exactely this issue to the xdg-list
<seb128> that's a design issue then?
<MacSlow> but there's no one implementing that patch right now
<seb128> if you are looking for somebody to do the work I've way too much to do already
<seb128> not sure what the question is actually
<MacSlow> and gtk+-upstream is mainly ok with Ryan's proposal and just waiting for a patch against gtk+-upstream
<MacSlow> since Ryan has not time (and gtk+-upstream is busy elsewhere) that leaves only one person "stupid" enough to volunteer for this
 * MacSlow <-
<seb128> ok, good, problem solved then? ;-)
<seb128> or you wanted the team opinion on something there?
<MacSlow> but this is not on my list of high-prio tasks and I'm not very experienced with that intrinsic gtk+-hacking... so I feel it'll be very difficult for me to do this.
<kwwii> I brought it up because we need to decide whether we can do this or not for 8.10
<MacSlow> I still have much to do for the face-browser considereing the wanted changes from UDS-Prague.
<seb128> Keybuk: hey boss, we need to hire desrt ;-)
<Keybuk> sounds to me like if we want to do an RGBA theme, we need this patch
<MacSlow> on the other hand I know we want that new theme and Cimi can't do it either afaik
<Keybuk> seb128: he's not hireable until September AIUI?
<MacSlow> seb128, oh yes... Keybuk Ryan would be a wickedly cool hire!
<kwwii> Keybuk: right, he is finishing his studies
<Keybuk> which would be too late for intrepid anyway
<Nafallo> sounds like prioritys needs to be set :-)
<kwwii> right
 * Nafallo lurks :-P
<Keybuk> MacSlow: it sounds like you're the best person to own the patch
<Keybuk> either you can do it
<seb128> Keybuk: I think he said he could hurry if he had some motivation to do so, but probably yes
<Keybuk> or you know who can - and can suggest them to me for a short term contract
<Keybuk> :p
<MacSlow> Keybuk, it's you're call... I'm sorry I cannot give any estimates how long that gtk+-stuff is going to take me.
<kwwii> MacSlow: do you know anyone else who could work on this?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I only know Ryan as a perfect match... otherwise people like Owen Tayler (RedHat) :) or one of the folks from Imendio
<Keybuk> MacSlow: could you talk to Ryan?
<seb128> I doubt owen is looking for something to do ;-)
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I can try to ask around my contacts at Imendio to see if they have some short-term hireable man-power left over, ok?
<Keybuk> sure
<Keybuk> you can have an ACTION for that then :p
<MacSlow> Keybuk, but can talk to Ryan again.
<MacSlow> Keybuk, sure go ahead
<Keybuk> in terms of priorities, did anyone talk to Mark about the RGBA theme? :p
<MacSlow> Keybuk, not yet :/
<kwwii> Keybuk: no, I was planning on showing him two screenshots
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I can do that too
<MacSlow> Keybuk, after all I'm the "bling guy"
<kwwii> that should make the decision easier
<Keybuk> indeed
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> let's move on them
<Keybuk> Specs!
<kwwii> MacSlow: if you need help with any pics for that let me know
<Keybuk> I'm going to run down the list of discussions at UDS, person-by-person
<MacSlow> kwwii, Keybuk: I'll CC you tow for those emails so you know what's going on, alright?
<Keybuk> this is the list of people I think are going to write up the discussion in one or more specs
<Keybuk> (split up as you feel necessary)
<Keybuk> if you didn't think you were going to write it up, or someone else thinks they are, please shout
<Keybuk> and if you've already got a spec drafted (or at least a spec registered), let me know what the name is
<Keybuk> by next week, I'd like to have them proposed for the intrepid release, and in the Review state (assumedly with me as the approver)
<Keybuk> pitti:
<Keybuk> 	PolicyKit and ConsoleKit (plan/roadmap?)
<Keybuk>  System-wide Preferences
<pitti> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/intrepid-device-permissions -> PK/CK
<pitti> Keybuk: I don't have notes for the system prefs
<pitti> (dev-perms is in review0
<Keybuk> ok, did anyone get notes for that one? (mpt I guess?)
<MacSlow> don't have those
<Keybuk> pitti: also for you I have
<pitti> hm, I'm pretty sure that we appointed a note taker for all the sessions
<Keybuk> 	gdm-guest-login
<Keybuk> 	intrepid-device-permissions
<Keybuk> 	consolidate-spell-checkers (assigned to: seb128)
<Keybuk> 	kernel-abi-package-handling (assigned to: ?, no approver)
<pitti> Keybuk: the latter three are in review, gdm-guest-login needs to be written (ENOTIME)
<Keybuk> ok great
<pitti> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/printerdriverautodownload will be 50% mine as well, since it need sjockey support
 * pitti kicks the space one step to the right
<Keybuk> pitti: I don't suppose it's possible to extract the "jockey support" bit of that spec out into a separate spec?
<pitti> Keybuk: oh, it is possible; can do
<Keybuk> makes it easier to track
<pitti> I'll name it jockey-printerdriver-support
<pitti> added to TODO list
<Keybuk> thanks
<Keybuk> mvo: were you going to write up the notes for the PackageKit sessions?
<mvo> Keybuk: yes, I can do that, also glatzor and james_w have started that already
<Keybuk> ok, great
<mvo> but I will ensure it gets done by next week
<Keybuk> MacSlow: for you I have
<Keybuk> 	Spit and Polish
<Keybuk> 	Client Drawn Decorations
<MacSlow> correct
<MacSlow> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/ClientDrawnDecorations https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/SpitAndPolish
<pitti> Keybuk: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/jockey-printer-driver-support
<Keybuk> MacSlow: are they registered in Launchpad?
<mvo> MacSlow: what is client-drawn-decorations? the window manager thing?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, ClientDrawnDecorations is a more general thing _not_ intended to land for Intrepid... very much upstream stuff, but the whole issue needs exposure therefore a spec on its own
<MacSlow> mvo, yes
<MacSlow> Keybuk, yes... by next week they'll be ready... since UDS I was busy trying to beat GtkEntry, GtkComboBoxEntry and GtkSpinButton to play nice with RGBA-murrine... that's where the lag in spec-writing came in
<Keybuk> tsk, implementation before specification
<MacSlow> Keybuk, SpitAndPolish is to some extend touching the RGBA-theme for Intrepid
<Keybuk> you're fitting right in already <g>
<MacSlow> Keybuk, not really... it was needed to better understand the involved issues in order to provide better information for the spec
<Keybuk> I'm only teasing ;)
<Keybuk> seb128:
<MacSlow> ah ok :)
<Keybuk>     UI Cleanup
<Keybuk>     Login Performance
<MacSlow> Keybuk, seb128: I've to gobby-notes for ui-cleanup btw
<seb128> I've note for those that's alright but thanks
<seb128> Keybuk: should the audio and photo reviews be drafted too?
<seb128> Keybuk: or should I open bugs for everything we listed upstream and in launchpad and tag those or something?
<pitti> ^ more sensible IMHO, and then maybe just tag them with photo-usability?
<MacSlow> Keybuk, seb128: for "photo experience" and "single sign-on" I've the notes too... just in case.
<seb128> pitti: that was my idea yes
<seb128> MacSlow: the photo notes should be on gobby but I'll ping you if they vanished
<Keybuk> seb128: I think they should be drafted in the form of a list of notes, necessary changes and bugs
<Keybuk> with not necessarily any assignee
<seb128> alright
<Keybuk> if the bugs are filed, and that can be linked to with a launchpad URL, so much the better :p
<Keybuk> ie:
<Keybuk>   [Launchpad URL Bugs]
<Keybuk>   * other changes that didn't get registered as bugs
<Keybuk> if everything can be a bug, I'm fine with that and no spec :
<seb128> well, if we don't need a list using tags I'll directly open those upstream rather
<Keybuk> that'd work too :)
<seb128> ok, good
<Keybuk> ted2:
<Keybuk> lots of Single Sign On for you
<Keybuk> and you're going to draft the Suspend/Resume session as well?
<ted2> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/network-account-profiles
<ted2> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/power-management-settings
<Keybuk> ted2: just the one spec for SSO, or are you could to split that up?
<ted2> I was going to do one, it seemed like everything was pretty interrelated.
<ted2> I guess we could split up things like the backend and the UIs.
<Keybuk> ted2: ok, my only real concern there is that it might end up quite a big spec, and it makes it harder to hand pieces to other people
<ted2> Or perhaps the application modifications into another spec.
<Keybuk> I think it'd be better as a handful of very closely related spec
<ted2> Okay, I'll break it up.
<ted2> Right now I'm thinking, backend, management, launchpad and apps.
<ted2> Seem reasonable?
<Keybuk> ok, the top-level one can then link to them all and explain the overview
<ted2> How do I link them?
<pitti> ted2: you can make them dependencies of each other
<pitti> well, not circular, of course
<ted2> Ah, okay, there we go.
<ted2> pitti: Thanks.
<Keybuk> kwwii: no specs for you! :p
<ted2> This will help my Launchpad Karma ;)
<pitti> we want new and fresh pr0n for the background!
<Nafallo> hrm. another warty? ;-)
<Keybuk> Riddell:
<Keybuk> 	Kubuntu Release Schedule
<Keybuk> 	Kubuntu Version
<Keybuk> 	Kubuntu File Sharing
<Keybuk> 	Kubuntu KDE4 Porting
<Keybuk> 	Kubuntu Configuration Tools
<Keybuk> 	Kubuntu Website
<Keybuk> 	Kubuntu Defaults
<Keybuk> did I miss any?
<pitti> argh MIR argh /me hides
<Riddell> Council
<Riddell> but that's informational and we implemented it last night
<Riddell> pitti: pretty please
<pitti> Riddell: sorry for dragging this, last week was just too stuffed
<Riddell> can't we make one of our security people as a main inclusion reviewer?
<Keybuk> they're both core-dev now
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> so which sessions or specs did I miss?
<pitti> if they want to, that'd be great; I'll also talk to doko about joining forces for MIR processing for KDE4
<Keybuk> any other business for today?
<seele> oh, me!
<seele> if given a choice, what would you rather have feedback on.. music experience or photo experience?
<Keybuk> seele: both? :p
<seele> i'm trying to organize usability testing through my loco
<ted2> I'm a little concerned that mpt isn't going to have time for the UI stuff we've planned for Intrepid.
<seele> Keybuk: both are too many.. we would need 16-20 people to test :)
<Keybuk> seele: I think that Photos is probably the best, we know Music pretty well
<ted2> What's the requirements there, do we need him to sign off on stuff?
<Riddell> hmm, I can't change the priority of my own specs
<seele> Keybuk: ok thanks.  just what i needed to know
<Keybuk> ted2: no requirements yet, he doesn't join the team until after 2.0 so we can't include him in the critical path :p
<seele> if this goes well, we can always do music at a later date
<Keybuk> Music is solved by using Banshee ;)
 * Keybuk likes to say that, just on the off-chance Seb is drinking
<mvo> ++
<ted2> Keybuk: Okay, I'll design ugly enough UIs that he'll want to leave early ;)
<seb128> (no comment)
<seb128> but I agree that doing photo is probably better
<kwwii> lol, some banshee guy filed a bug against the theme because their custom widget doesn't work right
<seele> is there a particular work flow you are concerned with (besides "everything"?)
<Keybuk> kwwii: file the bug back telling them to use the theme engine properly
<ted2> kwwii: Yeah, he's got a blog post about it.  It does make some sense his complaint.
<Keybuk> seele: what you think would be the normal user's flow
<ted2> kwwii: But, it does seem like they're avoiding doing anything normal and then complaining about it.
<seele> hah.. so everything
<seele> ok.. we'll see what we can fit in to 1 hour then
<seb128> I guess users mainly download photos from a camera and browse the photos they have downloaded
<mvo> + videos
<seb128> and maybe try to print, publish and mail some of those
<kwwii> ted2: yeah, that was my point
<seele> hmm.. print could be interesting.  we could test configuring a color printer maybe
<kwwii> ted2: in the end, we will have to work around their stuff
<ted2> kwwii: http://abock.org/2008/06/04/favorite-bug-of-the-day/
<ted2> kwwii: He does make the point that this is more of a GTK+ problem than an Ubuntu problem.
<kwwii> ted2: yeah, but he filed a bug against the theme saying that we are messing up the look of his widget
<seele> Keybuk: so in terms of maybe getting free swag for participants, would that be something to talk to you about or Jono since it is a Loco activity?
<Keybuk> Jono
<seele> ok cool
<Keybuk> right, out of time, adjourned
<Keybuk> thanks all
<seb128> thanks
<pitti> thanks all
<mvo> thanks
<pitti> see you next Monday
<MacSlow> so long folks
<seb128> pitti: enjoy your weekend ;-)
<mvo> have fun pitti
<pitti> thanks! Looking forward to seeing Zuerich again
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubottu> emgent: Schedule for Europe/Rome: Current meeting: Desktop Team | 05 Jun 22:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 23:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 12:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 13:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 08:00: Platform Team
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: speaking of which, where *is* jono?
<Keybuk> Hobbsee: who knows
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: oh, i thought you canonical people were supposed to know better than the general public
<Keybuk> we usually know less ;)
<\sh> resting? :)
<Keybuk> \sh: from what?! :p
<Nafallo> he didn't sound good during the last LR :-P
<Nafallo> catched a cold
<ogra> Keybuk, from drinking with the community indeed
<Keybuk> Nafallo: I seem to have that one this week
<\sh> Keybuk, Oh...as far as I understood, he told me during Ubuntu BBQ at LT: "you are a typical german, you drink and you are fit early in the morning" I thought he meant, that when uk people drink a lot, as we did altogether, they are not fit the next morning ;)
<Keybuk> lost my voice yesterday, and still have a very sore throat today :(
<Nafallo> Keybuk: ugh. same thing?
 * Hobbsee removes all your alcohol, and declares all ubuntu events as sober-only.
<ogra> \sh, known fact
<Seeker`> mdz: it was you that pointed out the inconsistency with mootbots voting message last night?
<\sh> Hobbsee, you didn't see the video where jono danced with aseigo ;) very nice ;)
<Keybuk> Hobbsee: I don't drink anyway ;)
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: shameful.  i didn't realise there was another one.
<\sh> Hobbsee, but right, we had far too many drinks during the event...
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Jun 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30 UTC: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team
<mdz> Seeker`: yes; it said <channel> <vote> in one place, and <vote> <channel> in another
<Seeker`> mdz: ok, I'll try to fix that when I have access to the bots server again
<udienz-> @now
<ubottu> udienz-: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 05 2008, 18:59:38 - Next meeting: Security Team in 1 hour 0 minutes
<udienz-> @schedule asia
<ubottu> udienz-: Error: Unknown timezone: asia - Full list: http://jussi01.com/web/timezones.html
<udienz-> @meeting asia
<slangasek> udienz-: um, Asia spans more than one timezone, you'd need to pick one to get a schedule :)
<udienz-> ï»¿slangasek: okay..
<RoAkSoAx> @schedule lima
<ubottu> RoAkSoAx: Schedule for America/Lima: 05 Jun 15:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 16:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 05:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 06:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 01:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 12:00: QA Team
<udienz-> @schedule Jakarta
<ubottu> udienz-: Schedule for Asia/Jakarta: 06 Jun 03:00: Security Team | 08 Jun 04:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 17:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 18:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 13:00: Platform Team | 12 Jun 00:00: QA Team
<udienz-> ï»¿slangasek: thanks
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubottu> emgent: Schedule for Europe/Rome: 05 Jun 22:00: Security Team | 07 Jun 23:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 12:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 13:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 08:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 19:00: QA Team
<emgent> heya kees :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Security Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30 UTC: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team
<emgent> we can start ?
<emgent> kees jdstrand wgrant ?
<kees> emgent: we should wait for the actual time.  :)
<slangasek> right, kinda defeats the purpose of publically scheduling the meetings otherwise..
<emgent> oh true,
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubottu> emgent: Schedule for Europe/Rome: Current meeting: Security Team | 07 Jun 23:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 12:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 13:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 08:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 19:00: QA Team
 * wgrant appears.
<emgent> heya wgrant :)
<wgrant> TOo-early morning, emgent.
<kees> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:01. The chair is kees.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kees> [TOPIC] intros, if needed
<MootBot> New Topic:  intros, if needed
<kees> hello everyone!
<kees> who's here for the Security Team Meeting?
<CaseySchaufler> Casey Schaufler
<emgent> me
<kees> hiya CaseySchaufler, nice to meet you on IRC.  :)
<CaseySchaufler> A pleasure
<jdstrand> hi!
<wgrant> Me!
<wgrant> Hi CaseySchaufler.
<CaseySchaufler> Hello wgrant
<kees> since CaseySchaufler is new to this meeting, I thought we'd go around quickly and say who we all are and what we do on the security team at large
<wgrant> \
<wgrant> Oops.
<kees> I'm Kees Cook, technical lead of the Ubuntu Security Team, and I do stable package updates and try to work on proactive security in development releases.
<kees> I work at Canonical with jdstrand, and that's it for me.  :)
<jdstrand> I'm Jamie Strandboge, Canonical employee, and work on the security with Kees
<wgrant> I'm William Grant, a MOTU. I pretend to do universe security updates and try to keep ubuntu-cve-tracker, when uni doesn't waste so much time.
<CaseySchaufler> I'm Casey Schaufler, and I wrote Smack, a really simple MAC scheme based on 20 years experiance with MLS Unix systems.
<wgrant> *ubuntu-cve-tracker updated
<wgrant> It is too early.
<kees> wgrant: heh
<kees> emgent: you're up.
<emgent> I'm Emanuele Gentili, part of Security Team (community): Ubuntu Whitehat Leader and Motu Swat member. I work on auditing/pentest and I work in universe security updates.
<kees> (wasn't ajmitch going to come this morning?)
<kees> CaseySchaufler: for some background where it relates to MAC systems, I did the initial integration work for AppArmor (along with mathiaz (server team)) and jdstrand did many profiles that went into main packages.
<kees> okay, our agenda for this meeting:
<kees> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<kees> if anyone has stuff to add, please add it to the wiki and let us know that we need to reload the page.  :)
<emgent> ok cool :)
<kees> I've got another thing I've got to leave for at about :40 after, so if things are still rolling, jdstrand is going to take over for me as chair.  (Though I have no idea how mootboot will deal with that...)
<kees> [TOPIC] CVE review
<MootBot> New Topic:  CVE review
<jdstrand> we should go quickly though-- I don't have much time after that :)
<kees> I was hoping we'd have ajmitch here since he was interested in the ubuntu-cve-tracker work
<kees> anything you need merged for the tracker, wgrant?
<kees> anything people are working on that they need help/direction on?
<kees> (I'm personally testing stable kernel updates at the moment, which is a mess of outstanding CVEs...)
<wgrant> kees: I've got a couple of smallish changes in my branch, but I've got a big exam in a little over a week so won't be doing much for a while.
<emgent> for me not now
<kees> wgrant: okay, no problem.  I'll pull the changes and just ping me when you've got more.  :)
<kees> I was thinking about adding either per-release or per-package RSS feeds to the CVE tracker's HTML output directories.
<kees> that way people interested in a specific package (like the partner repo folks) could track individual package's CVEs
<emgent> sounds good
<emgent> now i use RSS to for manage CVEs
<kees> should be an easy addition to the "make" process.
<emgent> s/to/too/
<kees> emgent: cool, which RSS feed do you pull from now?
<emgent> just a moment
<emgent> [LINK] http://nvd.nist.gov/download/nvd-rss.xml
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://nvd.nist.gov/download/nvd-rss.xml
<emgent> and..
<emgent> [LINK] http://nvd.nist.gov/download/nvd-rss-analyzed.xml
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://nvd.nist.gov/download/nvd-rss-analyzed.xml
<kees> cool, I wonder if we can build that into the check-cves process.  it's kind of pain to pull down so much XML each day.  :)
<kees> okay, well, in the interests of time, let's forge ahead
<kees> [TOPIC] UDS review
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS review
<kees> sounds like every one had a good time at the conference -- anything outstanding people want to discuss?
<kees> I was happy with how things worked out, but we're still a bit behind on the compiler hardening bits... it's coming though
<emgent> soyuz for manage universe-update is in progress true?
<kees> either doko or I need to fix a few toolchain tests, but the patches are now in a form that doko is happy with.
<kees> emgent: right, it's coming along.  "private" PPAs are being developed now to support it.
<emgent> ok cool.
<kees> I don't have an ETA from them -- wish I did, so I could track the progress a little better.
<kees> okay, moving on quickly...
<jdstrand> I haven't done anything yet with ufw, other than upload a small bug fix in hardy-proposed
<kees> [TOPIC] Smack
<MootBot> New Topic:  Smack
<kees> CaseySchaufler: what do we need to do to get Smack working happily in Ubuntu?
<CaseySchaufler> Turn off SELinux. ...
<emgent> lol :)
<kees> I read http://schaufler-ca.com/ briefly, and was hoping to have something like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AppArmor to follow
<kees> CaseySchaufler: hah.  well, the MAC system is selectable at boot time.
<emgent> [link] (22:15) ( CaseySchaufler) Turn off SELinux. ...
<MootBot> LINK received:  (22:15) ( CaseySchaufler) Turn off SELinux. ...
<kees> by default AppArmor is in used, but the SELinux integration work was done so that installing "selinux" would do all the magic needed to make it the default, set up policies, etc.
<emgent> opss..
<kees> having something like that for Smack would be great for people that wanted to use it.
<CaseySchaufler> Really, there are a few things to do, sshd, login, cron, but the changes are much less than SELinux of AppArmor requires.
<CaseySchaufler> There are no "application profiles" required.
<CaseySchaufler> Smack looks at processes, not programs.
<emgent> uhm..
<kees> CaseySchaufler: well, step 1 is to make it usable.  step 2 would be to make all the profiles (what's Smack's term for this?) on par with the existing AppArmor ones.  steps after that would be evaluating our MACs to decide if we should switch our default.
<kees> CaseySchaufler: what would be the steps as you see them to get Smack on par with the existing AppArmor protections?
<CaseySchaufler> Step 1 is easy because of the Smack mindset that if the labels match, you're golden,
<kees> how does Smack store its labels?
 * wgrant saw something about xattrs.
<CaseySchaufler> Step 2 is tough, the process label determines the access, not an attribute of the program.
<CaseySchaufler> Labels are xattrs.
<CaseySchaufler> So a profile is a user thing, not a program thing.
<wgrant> To me, a combination of AppArmor and Smack sounds optimal, but I suppose that doesn't work.
<kees> but there must be a way to define and write out the xattrs from some text file?
<kees> wgrant: unfortunately, stacked LSM isn't very happy
<emgent> gobby ?
<CaseySchaufler> Smack supports file system default labels.
<CaseySchaufler> Unless the xattr (SMACK64) is there, the fs default is used.
<kees> do you mean DAC, or do you mean SELinux labels?
<CaseySchaufler> This makes it easy to support xattr-less fs
<kees> was Smack in 2.6.24 ?
<CaseySchaufler> Smack in new to 2.6.25
<kees> okay, dang.  so we'll have to wait for the first intrepid kernel upload before anyone can really play with it.
<emgent> true
<kees> well, I'm all for seeing something similar to what the SELinux folks did.  would you be interested in getting packages prepared to configure a Smack environment?
<CaseySchaufler> SELinux uses labels of its own name, Smack uses labels too, but different ones
<CaseySchaufler> There is no need to pre-label the file system.
<kees> that's a plus.  :)
<CaseySchaufler> If you want to, it's easy enough, but all files that come with the distro ought to be labeled with the floor label ("_").
<CaseySchaufler> And because that's the default default, it's simple.
<CaseySchaufler> Home directories and user files should get labeled.
<kees> CaseySchaufler: for the next security meeting, could you prepare an example set of labels for replicating the cupsys AppArmor protections?
<CaseySchaufler> I'm working on a busybox adduser to do that.
<kees> that would let us compare things more easily
<kees> also, I note that Smack doesn't hook file_mmap.  any reason for that?
<CaseySchaufler> cupsys. Ok, I can do that .
<CaseySchaufler> wrt file_mmap - you need to open the file to mmap it, so the MAC check is done.
<kees> [ACTION] CaseySchaufler to write up example labels for cupsys + Smack
<MootBot> ACTION received:  CaseySchaufler to write up example labels for cupsys + Smack
<CaseySchaufler> Unlike SELinux, Smack processes rarely change their labels.
<kees> what about MAP_FIXED handling, where no fd is involved?
<CaseySchaufler> No quick answer to MAP_FIXED.
<kees> okay, cool.   I'm mostly fishing due to a hiccup we encountered late in the release with AppArmor which used file_mmap, but didn't implement the default kernel's mmap_min_addr check (selinux had duplicated it, but our version of AppArmor didn't have it yet)
<kees> anyway, I'm very interested in getting another MAC available, so I'm very happy you came to our meeting.
<jdstrand> yes, thanks CaseySchaufler :)
<CaseySchaufler> Because Smack uses simple interfaces and textstrings there are few ...
<CaseySchaufler> libraries and helper apps required.
<kees> yeah, it sounds very small :)
<emgent> :)
<CaseySchaufler> So it can fit in my brain.
<kees> hheheh
<emgent> lol
<kees> alright, well, we're a little blocked waiting for the intrepid kernel, but after that, for next meeting maybe, we can start playing with it.
<CaseySchaufler> Really, with SELinux or even AppArmor, it's very hard to tell if an access will succeed in advance and if not, why.
<kees> CaseySchaufler: generally we meet every two weeks.  (UDS moved things a bit recently, though)
<CaseySchaufler> OK. 2 weeks then?
<kees> well, AIUI, that's not true with SELinux, which has extensive analysis tools, but I've never used them.
<emgent> me too :\
<kees> CaseySchaufler: I say "generally" because we schedule it at the end of the meeting, but we've got another topic coming.  stick around?
<CaseySchaufler> Yes, it is true. The proof is that you need those extensive tools!
<CaseySchaufler> Sure.
<kees> CaseySchaufler: sure -- I'm a fan of "KISS"
<kees> but my primary goal is to have admins able to make their own choices about the MAC they want.
<CaseySchaufler> Didn't they break up?
<wgrant> It's a lot harder to leave a gaping hole if you follow KISS.
<CaseySchaufler> I agree.
<kees> heh.  this KISS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle
<CaseySchaufler> Yes, I just couldn't resist.
<kees> I couldn't tell -- don't know your sarcasm style yet.  :)
<kees> moving forward...
<emgent> :)
<kees> [TOPIC] White hat group Schedule Penetration Test date and packages to Auditing
<MootBot> New Topic:  White hat group Schedule Penetration Test date and packages to Auditing
<emgent> so, anteater (report tool) beta is out
<emgent> [link] https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-whitehat/ubuntu-whitehat-project/uwht
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-whitehat/ubuntu-whitehat-project/uwht
<emgent> i think that next week we can start to work
<emgent> kees: do you know in what infra we can start security tests ?
<kees> cool, hooked up to the python-launchpad-bugs
<emgent> heya python-launchpad-bugs now is supported
<emgent> s/heay/yeah/
<kees> emgent: before anything happens they want a specific test plan -- what ports, services, etc.
<kees> emgent: so, probably best to discuss that on the -hardened mailing list.
<kees> can you do that this week?
<emgent> sure, i will do
<kees> [ACTION] emgent to discuss whitehat testing plans on -hardened mailing list
<MootBot> ACTION received:  emgent to discuss whitehat testing plans on -hardened mailing list
<emgent> anyway for example for test launchpad i talked with stevea
<emgent> and him say to me to work on staging.launchpad.net
<emgent> so, i will send mail for define method and infra to test.
<kees> emgent: right.  that, for example, would be part of the tesing plan.  "Test LP for .... NOTE: use staging.lp..." etc
<kees> emgent: what you want is input on the plan, ideas, etc.
<emgent> yep
<kees> emgent: get it narrowed down to specific things that infra can look at and say "yeah, we're comfortable with those tests"
<emgent> i think so
<kees> emgent: and for non-LP things, giving some idea of the methods and tests is a start.
<kees> emgent: once that's documented, we'll have plan we can work from.
 * kees looks around for crimsun.... he wanted to do this for software too.
<emgent> ok i understand, i will draft it
<emgent> hehehe :)
<kees> great.
<kees> okay...
<emgent> about auditing, I'm thinking to write a list of packages (CMS) used by loco
<kees> good idea.  a lot of this can be discussed on the mailing list too.  (no need to wait 2 weeks between reports...)
<emgent> ok cool. :)
<kees> [TOPIC] next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
<kees> 2 weeks, same time?
<emgent> +1 for me
<CaseySchaufler> OK by me.
<kees> wgrant: did this work out for you, other than being brutally early?
<emgent> thanks kees :)
<kees> I'll try to get crimsun and ajmitch to come to the next meeting (\sh too, but he usually tries to make it)
<jdstrand> thanks kees!
<emgent> \sh: will read the logs
<kees> cool, 2 weeks it is.  :)  thanks everyone, and thanks CaseySchaufler for coming -- glad to have you helping us with Smack.  :)
<kees> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:45.
<emgent> (20:52) ( \sh) emgent, I'm sorry I can't attend the meeting..reading tomorrow the logs...
<emgent> hehehe :)
<emgent> (20:52)  * \sh has some things to do with his wife
 * kees runs off to the next appointment
<CaseySchaufler> My pleasure. Hey - y'all still looking for an OS manager?
 * persia remains impressed with the security team.  As well as tracking all that, only one meeting every two weeks, and finished with 17 minutes to spare.
<wgrant> kees: /me mumbles agreement.
<kees> persia: hehe
<kees> CaseySchaufler: http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/ <- that's all I know about
<CaseySchaufler> I saw. Could be pretty cool.
<CaseySchaufler> Especially if meetings run short!
<CaseySchaufler> (wrong)
<CaseySchaufler> Thank you all. Ta.
<jdstrand> bye CaseySchaufler
<emgent> see you later people
<emgent> :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30 UTC: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 11 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team
<candt> testing testing
<candtalan> leaving  - 'bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-06
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubottu> emgent: Schedule for Europe/Rome: 07 Jun 23:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 12:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 13:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 11 Jun 08:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 19:00: QA Team | 11 Jun 23:00:  Server Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-07
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Jun 21:00 UTC: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30 UTC: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 15:00 UTC: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team
<owh> @now
<ubottu> owh: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 07 2008, 18:20:07 - Next meeting: Marketing Team in 2 hours 39 minutes
<owh> @now
<ubottu> owh: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 07 2008, 20:14:45 - Next meeting: Marketing Team in 45 minutes
<okko7> 44 minutes
<okko7> 43 minutes ...
<Pretto> @now
<ubottu> Pretto: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 07 2008, 20:17:22 - Next meeting: Marketing Team in 42 minutes
<Pretto> nixternal, monday i will put the source for the card in GPL and i will send you
<leoquant> @schedule amsterdam
<ubottu> leoquant: Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 07 Jun 23:00: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 12:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 13:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 17:00: Server Team | 11 Jun 08:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 19:00: QA Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Marketing Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jun 10:30 UTC: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 15:00 UTC: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team
<candtalan> Hi  is anything going on here?
<owh> @schedule
<ubottu> owh: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 15:00: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00: QA Team
<owh> @now
<ubottu> owh: Current time in Etc/UTC: June 07 2008, 20:51:46 - Current meeting: Marketing Team
<John_B> imeeting starts in a few minutes
<owh> candtalan: Well, in 8 minutes from now anyway :)
<John_B> I'm new to all this so I figured I'd get here early in case of probs :-)
<owh> John_B: That is a good policy. I wondered if I'd wake up with an Internet connection :)
<owh> John_B: My satellite provider is upgrading firmware on the network :-|
<John_B> why did your comment show up in a different color, can't read it
<owh> Hmm. Let me look at that.
<John_B> that one was fine maybe I need to play with the settings???
<owh> John_B: How is this comment?
<owh> And what about the second one?
<John_B> the lastt 2 were fine
<owh> All good then :)
<John_B> let's hope so LOL
<John_B> with my screqy vision I have enuf probs as it is. let's not complicate things LOL
<John_B> that helpes
<owh> So, are people around for our ubuntu-marketing meeting?
<johnc4510> +1
<Flannel> yep
<John_B> what is CTCP VERSION??????
<hubuntu> +1
<sbc> o/
<candtalan> yep
<owh> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:03. The chair is owh.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<owh> Welcome to the Ubuntu-Marketing Team meeting.
<owh> [LINK] The agenda for today's meeting is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  The agenda for today's meeting is: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Agenda
<owh> Given that agenda, we have our work cut out for us. There are two hours set aside for this meeting.
<owh> Lets start with introductions, as we're all probably wondering who does what and why?
<owh> [TOPIC] Introductions and Role Call
<owh> I'm Onno Benschop. I'm a self-employed developer and troubleshooter. I'm a member of the ubuntu-server team and came to ubuntu-marketing because our team needed marketing resources for a survey we're about to launch. I volunteered to chair this meeting.
<owh> Note to self: Waking up at 2am to prepare for a meeting at 5am is bad timing or poor volunteering :-)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Introductions and Role Call
<owh> Introduce yourselves...
<hubuntu> alphabetical order?
<candtalan> hi I am in uk and am active at local computer fairs and exhibitions near me
<sbc> Hi everyone. I'm SÃ¸ren, student and teacher from Copenhagen. I'm involved in the Dansih Team, and only joined the marketing mailing list a few days ago.
<owh> hubuntu: Just send it down the line :)
<John_B> John Botscharow from USA former marketing consultant online, now writer and blogger
<okko7> Simon here. Civil engineer and MBA student.
<Flannel> Neal Bussett, LoCo leader for Ubuntu California
 * johnc4510 is John, ubuntu arizona team leader, uwn co-editor, fridge editor, ubuntu member
<owh> 5
<owh> 4
<owh> 3
<owh> 2
<pep> Pierre, student and member of ubuntu-be... probably just listening/reading :)
<owh> 1
<owh> Last chance...
<owh> I would like to take this opportunity to thank those existing team members - old and new - who have put many hours of labour into this team already so we may ride on their coat tails into our future.
<hubuntu> Hello. My name is RubÃ©n Romero, I'm a student and work as a Project manager and IT consultant. I live in Norway, but I'm from Ecuador. I am the contact member for the Ubuntu Ecuador LoCo and participate in the Norwegian LoCo as well. Work on the Spanish LoCo cooperation team. I have worked with sales (as salesman and couch), manager.
<owh> Our major discussion point today is the "Mission Statement".
<owh> I've taken the agenda and broken it down into little baby steps so we can have a chance to get through it :-)
<owh> [TOPIC] Define what we want to accomplish in the long term - goals
<MootBot> New Topic:  Define what we want to accomplish in the long term - goals
<owh> The mailing list is full of comments and discussion on this topic so I'm guessing none of you is shy about expressing their notions.
<owh> Comments...
<John_B> Has everyone read John V's proposal????
<owh> Hmm, mootbot isn't playing.
<candtalan> can someone start with basic goals?
<BHSPitLappy> It begins... :(
<hubuntu> wow...
<okko7> Goal proposal: ï»¿Coordination among all the marketing efforts that are going on
<John_B> what was that
<BHSPitLappy> Netsplit.  Freenode has the flu.
<hubuntu> just a mini-earthquake.. don't worry
<John_B> U'm not sure how to do this but I think the best way for us to accomplish everything we need to do toay is to accept that proposal as our stating point
<bbyever> sorry im late
<Flannel> John_B: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2008-June/003149.html that proposal, correct?
<John_B> but first we need to set the rule for a quorum
<okko7> I think this proposal is a good start. So I would - except if there are major problems with it, accept it, but just for intermediate periode of time.
<okko7> In the same time I'd propose to elect an intermediate team who's task it is to finalise this.
<okko7> (among other tasks...)
<hubuntu> Honestly I agree with VidAs comment on the proposition being too far away from the rest of the community in term of titles. It just does not work that way and it seems to me to be far away for what the CoC represnent within the Ubuntu Community
<owh> Well, that's nice, you chair a meeting and the server goes away :)
<owh> So, what did I miss :)
<hubuntu> besides that, the proposal is a good starting point
<pep> (how about all connecting to a same server, to prevent the meeting being interrupted? kornbluth.freenode.net for example...)
<hubuntu> ok
<hubuntu> what server?
<owh> Excellent suggestion pep.
<pep> I suggest kornbluth....
<hubuntu> what if wre use: /server irc.ubuntu.com
<hubuntu> it's kubrick I think
<owh> Ok, we'll follow hubuntu's suggestion.
<pep> no... it is still using the network i think... better connect directly to a server.. kubrick is fine for me just make one out :) owh?
<pep> ok kubrick
<owh> Crap, pidgin doesn't support swapping servers.
<John_B> how do I do that? Remember I am a newbie LOL
<owh> John_B: When you choose an irc server, set it's name in your account.
<owh> BRB
<okko7> John: are you using Pidgin?
<John_B> XChat
<hubuntu> good
<hubuntu> then just use
<pep> (ok, back on kubrick...)
<hubuntu> this commando john: /server irc.ubuntu.com
<hubuntu> after that
<hubuntu> use: /join #ubuntu-meeting
<hubuntu> and you'll be back
<John_B> but where do I put the commant??????
<hubuntu> in the text line :)
<owh> Right, my last contribution to this meeting was this: The mailing list is full of comments and discussion on this topic so I'm guessing none of you is shy about expressing their notions.
<pep> I don't want to cut you.. but irc.ubuntu.com does not forward to kubrick, it is just a general network host... jsut like irc.freenode;net... better type in kubrick.freenode.net if we ant to be on kubrick...
<pep> but nevermind :)
<hubuntu> really pep? DIdn't know that...
<hubuntu> owh, go on please
<owh> Lets move on.
<pep> hubuntu: well, here (belgium) it forwards me to kornbluth... but let's go on...
<owh> So, what notions do people have for the goals for this team?
<John_B> irc.ubuntu.com
<John_B> join #ubuntu-meeting
<owh> There was no shortage of comment on the list, why is everyone now so shy?
<John_B> not sure i did that right
<owh> John_B: IRC commands start with a '/'
<candtalan> not shy here just unfamiliar with the technology!
<pep> nevermind :) as long as you're here ;)
<owh> candtalan: Nothing wrong with that :)
<John_B> same here LOL
<owh> Right, well, I'll start the ball rolling then...
<John_B> the proposal is the best starting point anyone has offered
<owh> Some suggestions were to act as a team that does marketing for Ubuntu, other suggestions were to act as a resource point for other Ubuntu community members.
<John_B> as far as titles go, they are only titles. we can change them
<owh> John_B: We're not anywhere near "titles" at this point, just the goals.
<owh> [TOPIC] Define what we want to accomplish in the long term - goals
<MootBot> New Topic:  Define what we want to accomplish in the long term - goals
<hubuntu> some suggestions involve both approaches
<owh> So, are there any views on this?
<John_B> did you all see the FWD I sent to the list about the Damish team
<John_B> If enough teams go legal entity, that changes everything
<candtalan> goal to include overview discussion an dstrategy
<okko7> It's not just about the title, I think that the approach, the structure, the goals and so on need to be reworked so that people can really identify with it. That's why I'd suggest to adopt the proposal but just for a limited time.
<John_B> we then have all kinds of marketing optiona
<okko7> One point a new team could then work on would also be to think about the question of the legal entity.
<hubuntu> John_B, really that is something that is at a discussion level in the loco list
<Flannel> John_B: The marketing options don't really change based on the incorporation of LoCo teams
<hubuntu> not something we should take into account right now
<pep> regarding the decentralised organisation of our community, it does not have much point to centralise the marketing in my opinion... but make sure all efforts are going the same way, and no efforts are made twice... so centralise information, ideas, and guidelines, more than actually leading global marketing projects...
<hubuntu> +1 on pep
<hubuntu> and adding:
<owh> I have to strongly agree with pep, as I've said in the list.
<hubuntu> centralise our effort in order to serve the decentralized efforts of the Global community as in LoCo Teams
<owh> hubuntu: You're beginning to draft the mission statement I see :)
<owh> Ok, so we have three proposals here as I see it:
<owh> 1. Act as a marketing arm for Ubuntu
<candtalan> a central list can be an information exchange it does not have to be a control mechanism
<Flannel> Marketing really will be most effective if done through the LoCo team (people more receptive to locals rather than big far away orgs), the Marketing Team should be assisting and in a small part, offering coordination for LoCo teams if desired
<owh> 2. Act as a repository for Ubuntu Teams
<owh> 3. Combination of both.
<candtalan> 2a an inffformation exchange
<okko7> Vote for 3.
<owh> candtalan: Yes
<John_B> A question: how "cetralized is a Loco?
<Flannel> John_B: depends a lot on the LoCo, and depends on your definition of centralized
<owh> okko7: I'm worried that if you try to be everything for everyone, you loose focus as has happened in the past.
<pep> I go tend more to 2 ....
<John_B> or the Developers team>
<hubuntu> LoCos are people acting locally representing the community
<pep> yes, maybe incoporate in the loco team a "marketing contact" role... as you have a leader, you have a marketing contact... just make marketing more important and automatically merge marketing with the loco teams... through: one contact per team. it wouldn't be "necessary" to form a team... but strongly recommended...
<hubuntu> once again +1 on pep
<bbyever> +1 pep
<owh> Ok, are there additions to this list?
<hubuntu> many teams have working groups within them as of today, and in many they ALREADY have a marketing working group
<pep> yes, but not necessaril in close relation to the marketing team..
<owh> hubuntu: Right, so we can assist them with central resources.
<hubuntu> then we come in, don't we?
<pep> yes
<candtalan> close relationship need not be mandatory
<owh> Do I need to put this to a vote, or is there agreement?
<Flannel> owh: We're still having a healthy discussion
<candtalan> please summarise the suggested agreement?
<hubuntu> no mandatory in LoCo teams... they organize as they see fit. But maybe recommend the crewation of such a group
<okko7> I'm not sure about the "mandatory" either.
<hubuntu> jono, any thought in this part?
<owh> Mandatory has never worked in teams I've been part of.
<candtalan> mandatory would kill many motives
<Flannel> Mandatory will not work, because this is a volunteer based org
<Flannel> both on a LoCo level and the entire community
<owh> Ok, so the proposal is for he marketing team to: Act as a central marketing resource for the Ubuntu Community.
<pep> you can see the marketing team as a team of it's own, but more importantly having a contact in every loco... (I'm not sure about the sense of mandatory... :/)
<candtalan> If th eresources are not good enough to be used, it i sno good to force things
<pep> yes owh, I agree on that...
<owh> Any alterations?
<Flannel> owh: I think it'll be modified through usage as time goes on, but for now, looks good.
<candtalan> resource includes ideas sharing
<owh> candtalan: Yup.
<candtalan> ok ffor me
<hubuntu> +1 for 3.
<John_B> I can live with it
<candtalan> +1 ffor 3
<owh> [IDEA] The Ubuntu Marketing Team will act as a central marketing resource for the Ubuntu Community.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  The Ubuntu Marketing Team will act as a central marketing resource for the Ubuntu Community.
<pep> a ressource is something you can use or not... maybe, making the importance to have a marketing contact per loco higher would benefit to solve bug #1 as it would centralize efforts... ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<owh> That then covers the next topic, our target market, so unless there are objections, I'll skip that.
<pep> this is maybe a detail, but I think relatively important... get the marketing team and efforts more involved in the locos..
<John_B> works for me
<pep> fine
<owh> Onto the next item.
<owh> [TOPIC] Define the steps needed to achieve each goal - objectives
<MootBot> New Topic:  Define the steps needed to achieve each goal - objectives
<owh> Given our goals and our target market, what needs to be done?
<owh> pep: Your point is what exactly?
<Flannel> Re-establish contact with the LoCo teams/community at large
<John_B> work out the terms of relationship with Canoncial
<pep> to get the marketing team efforts more involved with loco teams... it joins the idea of a marketing contact per loco team...
<owh> John_B: I've got Canonical on the list as a separate topic.
<candtalan> marketing team members may each be themselves in a particular loco(?)
<John_B> that way we know what we can do for the LoCos
<pep> just raise general interaction between loco team and amrketing team..
<owh> So far I've heard lots about LoCo's, but what about other teams, such as for example ubuntu-server?
<pep> yes candtalan but not every loco has a marketing team member...
<okko7> IMPORTANT: Focus seams until now to be only towards existing ubuntu users, and not the "outside world", that is Windows users.
<Flannel> owh: LoCo teams would be the people who do a lot of the marketing (downstream) the other teams are more who we're marketing for (upstream)
<owh> okko7: Who's focus?
<okko7> General efforts of loco teams but also  - as it seams - the ubuntu marketing teams focus.
<owh> Flannel: Well U-S is planning a survey which is going to end users, so they're marketing downstream.
<John_B> and they would be more likely to have contact with Windows users on a larger scale than say the developers
<pep> yes Flannel, these are indeed different questions I think...
<candtalan> In principle th eloco teams would do on the ground marketing.
<owh> okko7: Well as we've defined it, we are not catering to the outside world at present. We are catering to Ubuntu so they can cater to the outside with our help.
<ompaul>                                                                       
<Flannel> owh: Yes, but they could just as easily ask -marketing to do it for them, or whatever.
<okko7> Hm. I dare challenging this.
<okko7> Marketing resources should also be available towards the outside.
<Flannel> owh: We're not marketing *to* the LoCos, the proposal was to give the LoCos stuff to marketing to the outside world with.
<bbyever> but they are, through the locos
<owh> I understand the thrust of what you are both saying however...
<pep> this joins the spreadubuntu idea....
<owh> There are few of us and many LoCo and team members. If we can assist locally, then we can affect globally.
<hubuntu> once more +1 on pep. Spreadubuntu, Brainstorm... a  marketing cooperation framework need definition and work
<okko7> I have the impression that many locos are focused mostly towards the inside and only exceptionnally towards the outside.
<candtalan> being in the marketing team would not stop me doing stuff locally as an individual
<owh> Flannel: I understand your point, but okko7 is saying we should market outside Ubuntu.
<owh> candtalan: Exactly.
<Flannel> okko7: What do you mean mostly towards the inside?
<candtalan> okko: yes loco are often inward looking
<okko7> Example: A release party is a party organised by geeks for geeks. Newbees will very easily feel lost.
<hubuntu> okko7 I can't agree on that.. It may be the case in some places, but not in the global community as a whole
<pep> yes. that is why I think my idea of "strongly suggesting" each loco to have a marketing contact, would help this cooperation and centralising work... without taking the loco's fredom or doing something for them...
<pep> freedom*
<owh> okko7: If that is the case, then we as a team can provide resources to help change that.
<bbyever> ï»¿okko7: i have to disagree as well
<Flannel> owh: I don't think that's a bad idea, no.  But it shouldn't be over the heads of the LoCos, since thats really what they're there for, and you don't want to insult them
<okko7> My opinion is just that there needs to be an equilibrium between outside and inside marketing.
<John_B> if we don't market outside, we are not really working on Bug 1
<hubuntu> a installfest is geeks installing ubuntu for 10 times as many non-geeks
<hubuntu> given the marketing of the event is right
<okko7> As for now I have the impression that the outside marketing is not enough to deal with bug 1.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<John_B> besides marketing inside is like kissing your sister LOL
<hubuntu> what's the point on selling ubuntu to a geek that has already bought it?
<candtalan> in loco that I know ther iare a few who are keen on marketing only, these would focus with this team
<pep> I disagree also... but maybe the marketing team should enlighten ubunteros on how to speak to specific categories of people about ubuntu.. (the student, the litteral, the elder, the kids...)
<okko7> Good point, pep.
<hubuntu> pep you hit everytime... +1
<pep> a sort of "what do I say facing a person that is X"
<pep> thank you
<john-vilsack> Hello all!  Apologies for my tardiness, but I did make it after all ;)
<pep> but this is admitting that we are a tool for the locos and ubunteros of course...
<candtalan> Hi John
<pep> welcome
<owh> So, one of our objectives would be to provide resources to assist LoCo's in marketing their release parties to the wider community.
<dsas> pep: Being a loco tool and doing central campaigns aren't mutually exclusive.
<pep> no of course...
<bbyever> +1 owh
<pep> you're right
<candtalan> one of our objectives would be to provide resources to assist LoCo's -----  and encouraage?
<owh> [IDEA] Provide resources to assist LoCo's in marketing their release parties to the wider community.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Provide resources to assist LoCo's in marketing their release parties to the wider community.
<owh> Other objectives?
<okko7> Not just release parties...
<candtalan> can we add 'encourage'?
<pep> owh: yes..; and maybe provide a sort of guide explaining which arguments fit which type of public... I don't know...
<pep> what do  you think people?
<Flannel> pep: I like the "how to talk to people" idea
<bbyever> i saw one of those, in ubuntuforums.org
<hubuntu> yes a how-to defining best practices for an installfest
<nhaines> Good suggestions on effective advocacy are always in order.
<candtalan> explaining - will be one resource
<John_B> like it
<owh> [IDEA] Provide resources to assist and encourage LoCo's in marketing their release parties to the wider community.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Provide resources to assist and encourage LoCo's in marketing their release parties to the wider community.
<hubuntu> I made one for the Ecuador LoCo and the FLISOL
<pep> it should push aimed-marketing...
<owh> pep, can you phrase your suggestion as a single sentence?
<okko7> Why limit on "release parties"? Maybe help then in generally marketing ubuntu
<pep> I'll try ;)
<candtalan> just limted to release parties? What about in their marketing activities or whatever?
<hubuntu> okko7, the objectives have to be define into concrete tasks
<nhaines> I'd like to see the Marketing Team as a place we can to go find marketing (literature) ideas and designs and templates.
<owh> okko7: We're trying to create a list of objectives, not cover the world in one hit.
<nhaines> For example, I just did a presentation with slides, and I intend to publish those slides.  It would be nice if I could submit the presentation to the Marketing Team for others to use.
<John_B> leave it as general as possible - open to any opportunity
<Flannel> owh: but still, "release parties" is a narrow aspect of the LoCos
<hubuntu> installfest are important in the difussion of ubuntu, as many other activities are (expositions at schools, talks, etc...)
<pep> Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, to reach different types of public... so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...
<candtalan> I display at computer fairs, talk at clubs
<owh> Flannel: Yes, that is true, but release parties are already a "known" thing, they come around every six months and are plan-able.
<pep> I think you see waht I mean...
<hubuntu> nhaines, you hit the spot: Stablish an organized repository of material that is both manageable and understandable
<nhaines> hubuntu: exactly.  Gather the hard work that LoCo teams are already doing.
<pep> yes
<owh> Right, so there is another objective.
<john-vilsack> This is in line with what I was envisioning: a central repo of materials that could be easily referenced by any aspect of the community.
<candtalan> If it needs to be specific then no problem with release parties from me
<owh> [IDEA] Gather the hard work that LoCo teams are already doing.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Gather the hard work that LoCo teams are already doing.
<Flannel> owh: So is everything else.  We tend to have installfests as our "parties", using that specific term is overly restrictive under some intrepretations
<owh> Flannel: Have you got a better wording?
<pep> yes, a big gathering work will have to be done.. and sorting, classifying in a clearly structured website...
<pep> so that it is easily re-usable
<Flannel> owh: s/release parties/activities/
<hubuntu> again pep we are heading towards spreadubuntu
<owh> [IDEA] Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, to reach different types of public... so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, to reach different types of public... so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...
<pep> hubuntu: yes... =-)
<hubuntu> I always thought it was a good plan.,. just like spreadfirefox is
<owh> [IDEA] Provide resources to assist and encourage LoCo's in marketing their activities to the wider community.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Provide resources to assist and encourage LoCo's in marketing their activities to the wider community.
<owh> Right, so by my count we have three ideas, any other objectives?
<candtalan> reach different types of publi - nice one yes
<nhaines> I think a Marketing Team focusing on resources for LoCos and other individuals to reuse and build off of is going to have the quickest payoff while other objectives are in the works.
<pep> I strongly agree with hubuntu, the spreadubuntu project should be taken up again... it should be this repository of tools that we talk of...
<john-vilsack> I guess I should ask:  Has anyone brought up the proposal I posted to the mailing list last night?  I thought it was a fairly comprehensive direction.
<hubuntu> yes john, we are woirking on it right nowe ;)
<candtalan> which one please?
<owh> john-vilsack: Yes, but we're currently going through the agenda.
<john-vilsack> ok, just trying to catch up, thanks :)
<owh> So, nhaines, does what we have so far cover what you expect?
<John_B> I did
<owh> I think we have our objectives for the moment?
<candtalan> ok fo rme
<nhaines> I feared that the idea was being dismissed, but yes, the last idea received was what I expect.
<Flannel> owh: Perhaps it'd be best to summarize what we have so far
<owh> Fair enough.
<John_B> ok
<owh> Provide resources to assist and encourage LoCo's in marketing their activities to the wider community.
<owh> Gather the hard work that LoCo teams are already doing.
<owh> Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, to reach different types of public... so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...
 * owh had to do some fancy copy/paste :)
<owh> Any other objectives?
<pep> this can be framed in the spreadubuntu project no?
<owh> pep Yup
<owh> pep: It's on the list...
<pep> okok.. just checking if I got it right :)
<okko7> Perfect for me.
<owh> Right onto the next topic.
<owh> [TOPIC] Define a concrete mission statement for the team that reflects the goals and objectives of the team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Define a concrete mission statement for the team that reflects the goals and objectives of the team
<pep> yes...
<owh> Anyone wish to take a stab at a first draft statement, no more than 25 words?
<candtalan> so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...  restate as inappropriate person inapropriately ?
<candtalan> ( I am elder and I woiul dlove to have xorg explained to me....)
<owh> candtalan: Reads a bit strange, we'll work on it. Leave it for now.
<pep> yes it was not very intelligently formed...
<owh> candtalan: man xorg :)
<pep> ^^
<candtalan> :-)
<john-vilsack> cantalan: How about "learning to speak at the technical level appropriate to the audience"?
<pep> yes!
<owh> Yup
<pep> that was it, I am not a native english speaker :)
<hubuntu> nice
<hubuntu> but make it more people refering maybe?
<owh> john-vilsack: So, how did you want to change this: Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, to reach different types of public... so that nobody ends up talking about xorg possibities to an elder person...
<john-vilsack> Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, Preparing the community to speak speak the tehcnical level appropriate to the audience when talking about Ubuntu
<candtalan> so that the audience is informed appropriate to their experience
<pep> even if it sounds rather discriminating.... I'm afraid marketing *is* discriminating... my point was to specify clear arguments and "what to talk about" and "what to force on" depending of you audience...
<john-vilsack> how's that?
<John_B> elderly
<pep> yes, I like john-vilsacks formulation..
<candtalan> point accepted, it just needs  wording
<owh> candtalan: So, are you happy with john-vilsack's wording?
<John_B> I can do that once its on the wiki
<john-vilsack> My little brother is 20 and can't check his email without throwing a keyboard...its not an aptitude limiting by age... :)
<candtalan> john-vilsack: yes
<pep> sure :)
<owh> [IDEA] Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, Preparing the community to speak speak the technical level appropriate to the audience when talking about Ubuntu.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Proposing a guide, regrouping different techniques of marketing and arguments, Preparing the community to speak speak the technical level appropriate to the audience when talking about Ubuntu.
<owh> Right, now that you've all had time to draft a mission statement, where are the proposals :)
<John_B> thats good
<john-vilsack> rofl give me a moment ;)
<owh> Type faster will ya, we're wasting air :)
<pep> regarding the second point, I think it important to place the sense of "interactive" nexy to "marketing ressource"... it must be clear that the goal and functioning strongly depends on the actions and feedback of the marketeers in my opinion...
<John_B> slower is better
<John_B> some of us have handicaps LOL
<owh> pep: Do you mind if we leave that alone for the moment, we are an hour in and we have lots to get to.
<pep> not at all.... I thought this was waht the seconde point was about no? o.O mission statement..
<john-vilsack> ok, i have two.
<owh> Bring it on.
<john-vilsack> These are a bit wordy and rough, but you get the idea :)
<john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team seeks to unify the voice in which our community speaks to the world about the benefits of the Ubuntu Operating Experience.
<john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team's goal is to prepare the community with the materials and information needed to spread the word of Ubuntu to the world.
<owh> +1 for the second one.
<owh> -1 for the first.
<pep> to prepare and to propose an interactive exchange point...
<owh> IMHO :)
<hubuntu> +1 for #2
<owh> pep: Don't you think that just makes it overly complex?
<hubuntu> +peps input, as usual :)
<candtalan> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team's goal is to prepare  ----an dencourage
<owh> +1 candtalan
<pep> maybe... but I think it is existential... as in, without marketeers, no marketing...
<pep> yes +1 candtalan
<john-vilsack> I'm trying to play off the past line of my project plan, "Ubuntu by itself can sell itself to millions. Ubuntu with a unified voice can sell itself to the world."
<john-vilsack> pep: how about "bridge the divide between---"?
<owh> pep: If you can find a better way of wording what you mean, perhaps it would change my view.
<candtalan> the unify has to be a voluntary accept from the lider locos though
<candtalan> typo from the wider locos
<owh> john-vilsack: So, what would it become?
<john-vilsack> I don't think that's going to be a problem.  Once we start producing relevant materials, the LoCos at the very least will reference it if nothing else
<owh> john-vilsack: Assuming you include candtalan's suggestion as well.
<pep> i'm a little lost to tell the truth^^ i have difficulties wording this, but nevermind, it was just to get the idea of strong interaction between marketing team and other teams into the statement... but it must not be necessary...
<candtalan> our actions will hope to get unify by  the good ideas and resources
<john-vilsack> trying to reform it, one second
<owh> +1 candtalan
<hubuntu> yes, true, but take into account that the material have to be hosted in a way that makes it easy to use them, change them and make them available to others as well (like in translating material to other languages)
<pep> hubuntu: where we rejoin the spreadubuntu ... :)
<hubuntu> I know is not relevant now, but it has to be thought of, BEFORE implementing it
<hubuntu> I know pep...
<owh> hubuntu: So, we start with a marketing project, add it to rosetta, bob's you're uncle :)
<john-vilsack> hubuntu: absolutely.  This is the most essential thing.
<john-vilsack> hrmm.
<owh> john-vilsack: How's the statement coming along?
<john-vilsack> all these good ideas keep throwing me for a loop ;)  I'm back to the drawing board for a moment
<hubuntu> yeah, something like that owh. But it has also to count regarding images and other resources as well that rosetta just won't be a good tool
<pep> I spreadubuntu.com site, a changing, organised and clear repository of all marketing ressources provided and created by Locos over the years, as well as a clear guide is what I have in mind on a long term basis...
<candtalan>  The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team's goal is to prepare and encourage the community with the materials and information needed to spread the word of Ubuntu to the world.
<owh> WFM
<candtalan> The 'encouragement' would lead hopefully to a unification too
<owh> candtalan: You probably want to change community to 'Ubuntu Communuty'
<candtalan> ok
<John_B> add :with one voice" at the end
<owh> John_B: Not needed, the LoCo's will still speak with their own voice.
<owh> As they should!
<owh> We're a resource, not a dictator.
<candtalan> that sounds a bit ambitious. Who has the voice, who decides?
<john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team serves to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to help unify the voice of Ubuntu from the enterprise to the single user.
<owh> Indeed.
<john-vilsack> *still massaging*
<owh> Hmm.
<Flannel> john-vilsack: strives instead of serves?
<john-vilsack> I actually like putting us in a service based role :)
<owh> Better
<john-vilsack> but that's personal preference.
 * owh still likes candtalan's better.
<pep> The Ubuntu Marketing Team's goal is to provide the Ubuntu Community with a place to exchange marketing projects and tools, as well as clear guidelines to spread Ubuntu in the most effective way. (badly put... I know.. it's my problem^^)
<John_B> with one voice means a unified marketing campaign irregardless of language
<Flannel> john-vilsack: As long as that overtone was conscious, yep.
<owh> The problem I have with john-vilsack's last one is that we're now speaking of external audiences, which we had already decided were not our target.
<john-vilsack> oh ok
 * owh doesn't really want to revisit that :)
<hubuntu> yeah, let's go onb
<owh> Are there other views on the matter?
<candtalan> my suggestion was a slightly modified one from john-vilsack
<hubuntu> I believe a refernece to the spreadubuntu project should be made
<John_B> when did we dedice THAT???? I got the impression of the opposite
<john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
<pep> concise... but true...
<john-vilsack> There's a whole lotta Ubuntu in that statement
<candtalan> spreadubuntu would be included in the resources and encouragement surely?
<john-vilsack> candtalan: absolutely.
<pep> I think spreadubuntu.com will be the actual base, we're building on...
<owh> So, everyone happy with that? Mission statement: The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
<candtalan> +1
<pep> maybe drop the second Ubuntu ? :/
<hubuntu> yes, it makes it a BIG challenge, but yes +1
<pep> I don't know, my ears are maybe not them of a native english seaker^^but else, I agree
<Flannel> I think "Ubuntu Community" is redundant, "community" is sufficient
<pep> yes
<owh> We could do s/Ubuntu Community Marketing Team/Marketing Team/
<Flannel> owh: I was talking about "by the community to"
<pep> Flannel: +1
<john-vilsack> pep: agreed.  Lots of Ubuntu...I think people will get it ;)
<John_B> BIG challenges are the only ones worth tsking on LOL
<owh> Flannel: Yes, I realise that, but we are specifically catering to the Ubuntu Community, not to the wider community directly.
<candtalan> with great regret - I have to leave now - best wishes to all
<pep> good bye
<owh> candtalan: Thanks for your input.
<john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
<john-vilsack> ooh
<Flannel> owh: If someone is taking something from the Ubuntu community, and using it to spread Ubuntu, they are part of the Ubuntu community
<pep> heh
<john-vilsack> Target specific:
<john-vilsack> The Ubuntu Community Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by our community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
<hubuntu> I have calculated with 3-4 hours for this meeting...
<owh> I'm suggesting: The Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
<pep> the "ubuntu marketing team"? :)
<owh> hubuntu: We've got the room booked for another 40 minutes :)
<pep> ok, agreed with owh
<john-vilsack> We have to set ourselves apart from Canonical though.
<hubuntu> @schedule
<ubottu> hubuntu: Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Marketing Team | 09 Jun 10:30: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 15:00: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00: QA Team
<owh> john-vilsack: Our team name already does that.
<pep> sorry^^
<john-vilsack> so long as we are conscious of that, then I accept OWH's version
<owh> hubuntu: Ah, we can talk for another 48 hours or so then :)
<owh> Right, so, final go: Mission Statement: The Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
<owh> Any objections?
<hubuntu> no
<hubuntu> ;)
<john-vilsack> I like it, but does everyone think that it will translate well?  I'm trying to keep it simple.
<owh> [IDEA] Mission Statement: The Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Mission Statement: The Marketing Team strives to create the building blocks needed by the Ubuntu Community to spread Ubuntu throughout the world.
<John_B> RODLMAO on the 48 hours
<owh> Moving on...
<owh> [TOPIC] Define our relationship to the Canonical marketing department
<MootBot> New Topic:  Define our relationship to the Canonical marketing department
<owh> Given that we're two seperate entities, what relationship should we have with Canonical?
<hubuntu> that's the translation teams work.. they now how to do that :)
<John_B> I don't see how we can do that without talking to Canonical
<pep> merely point out that there is professional support... but not do their work...
<pep> we re promoting ubuntu... not the support for it
<pep> well the ciommunity support, yes^^
<owh> John_B: Well, technically, we could, but we can get a lot of leverage and support from Canonical, so we'd be foolish to not talk to them.
<john-vilsack> What I propose is informational only.  Some collaboration will exist, but by and large I believe that we will be seperate yet united in our cause.
<Flannel> pep: I think this is asking a separate question.  Specific to collaboration
<owh> +1 john-vilsack
<pep> exactly, +1 john-vilsack
<hubuntu> see this  as an example: http://blog.laptopmag.com/ubuntu-netbook-remix-qa-with-canonical
<owh> So, do we have any existing ties with Canonical?
<Flannel> pep: Since, when dealing with large corporations and stuff, they are looking for commercial support
<pep> Flannel: yes, I agree...
<john-vilsack> In my doc: http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dg523cct_41d8t388r5 I think we should invite a member of Canonical to sit in on Core-Marketing discussions, and have a channel open directly with them...but I wouldn't expect much more than that.
<pep> it should be informational...
<hubuntu> so: community based activities: Marketing Team. Commercial stuff: Canonical Marketing department?
<john-vilsack> Exactly
<hubuntu> give Gerry Carr, marketing manager at Canonica a call
<john-vilsack> But at the same time, I think we can prepare information that they would use.
<owh> Well, that implies that there will be grey areas. I think that is going to be a challenge.
<pep> but, spreadubuntu can benefit of canonical's marketing and vice versa of course!
<hubuntu> but wait.. I have something to add
<owh> hubuntu: Any steak knives with that?
<john-vilsack> I've correspnded with Gerry about this whole thing and (he?) has been following our progress.
<hubuntu> aren't we also trying to make this a commercial ecosystem as well as a non-commercial one?
<john-vilsack> There are some things from Canonical coming down the pipe that will be of interest to us, but nothing they could share as of yet.
<pep> I don't think we should stay too long on this matter tonight....
<pep> (today)
<hubuntu> good pep, let's go on :)
<john-vilsack> I think once we have a stable workflow in place to support the community experience we will be able to work on comparison papers, etc. to help the enterprise level.  That's where we will end up working with Canonical alot more.
<owh> So, in answer to my question, yes, there are existing relationships with Canonical, in the form of john-vilsack.
<hubuntu> john-vilsack, you are really doing your homework ;)
<john-vilsack> I'm trying :)
<owh> Any further points about this topic?
<pep> not for me.
<owh> [TOPIC] Develop a better system of internal communications
<MootBot> New Topic:  Develop a better system of internal communications
<owh> At the moment we have several locations where sometimes incomplete or out of date information lives. Some of the URLs I have are incomplete.
<owh> [LINK] Launchpad page: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-marketing
<owh> [LINK] Wiki pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam
<MootBot> LINK received:  Launchpad page: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-marketing
<MootBot> LINK received:  Wiki pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam
<owh> [LINK] Mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
<owh> [LINK] IRC: irc://freenode.net/ubuntu-marketing
<owh> [LINK] Forum: http://ubuntuforums.org/
<MootBot> LINK received:  Mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
<MootBot> LINK received:  IRC: irc://freenode.net/ubuntu-marketing
<MootBot> LINK received:  Forum: http://ubuntuforums.org/
<owh> Are there any other places where we have information that we "own".
<pep> this will be centralised with spreadubuntu.com I hope...
<owh> pep: Well, at the moment spreadubuntu.com just goes to the ubuntu home page.
<john-vilsack> +1 pep  If we can use spreadubuntu for the "final products", this would be the best place to do it.
<pep> yes, sure.. but that's just a matter of redirecting a URL ...
<Flannel> owh: The wiki.
<Flannel> Oh, you have that.
<owh> Are there any other resources I didn't list?
<john-vilsack> Do we have access to web design and developers that would be able to help us build out spreadubuntu?
<pep> we could I think...
<owh> john-vilsack: Look around you :)
<john-vilsack> rofl  touche. :)
<owh> pep: ?
<Flannel> john-vilsack: Wiki may be a better place, it's more accessible for a lot of people
<pep> should not be too great problem in my opinion... the problem is to have a clear view of HWO this should present... topic of a future meeting I suggest...
<John_B> depends on what you need, I can do some
<owh> Yeah, I'm personally in favour of using a Wiki. It will allow editing by the users which is our aim.
<pep> HOW
<pep> sorry...
<owh> Ok, moving on.
<john-vilsack> I think the wiki would be easier for internal discussion/task management.  But I see spreadubuntu as a "Download Ubuntu" "Find Local Fans" "Start a Local Club" "Get More Information" type of deal...
<nhaines> +1 john-vilsack
<okko7> It will also be necessary to collect existing documents from loco webpages.
<owh> The list of resources is what we have today, the next topic goes to the heart of how we use them.
<John_B> you are assuming they will know how to use a wqiki BAD assume
<Flannel> john-vilsack: SU is where you go for a website, not for LoCo content stuffs
<hubuntu> wiki + spreadubuntu download site +1
<pep> I don't know... I think a website, but editable, in wiki theory, would be of greater advantage... something that gives a clear overview, enabling to browse through our ressource archive...
<pep> dynamically
<pep> okko7: yes, collecting and filing all information will be a big work...
<pep> +1 on john-vilsack
<owh> John_B: The point of a Wiki is that the entry level required is low, that is, it's simple to learn if you have a need.
<john-vilsack> Flannel:  but hopefully we can take the good work the LoCos have done and spread it around to the other LoCos and the rest of the Ubuntu Community.  They may have done alot of what we want already.  We just have to help centralize it.
<hubuntu> okko7, that means collaboration with existing marketing groups among the LoCos and recopilation from ramdomd wikis of groups not having a marketing contact/group
<owh> Let me start the next topic to get some structure here :)
<Flannel> john-vilsack: Right, but there's no reason to take that content (which is already on places like /DIYMarketing) and move a particular version to a separate site which is difficult for most to update/append/etc
<john-vilsack> owh: exactly.  SU will be for final, polished product....call it "Our Distribution" so to speak of final products.  The Wiki is great for getting it to that point.
<hubuntu> john-vilsack, you are right. We are working on that within the SPanish community right now
<John_B> there are a number of php scripts like Drupal that would work very nicely and do not regquire much technical knowleged
<owh> [TOPIC] Discuss possible guideline for the mailing list to better organize the threads
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss possible guideline for the mailing list to better organize the threads
<owh> I think this is more to do with how we harness our ideas, than "better organising the threads".
<john-vilsack> Flannel: Right, but we can link to it or offer to have them "merge" it into the....don't laugh... "Marketing Kernel"
<hubuntu> regarding marketing material as well as other material (documentation, translations, etc..)
<owh> As I see it, the mailing list, irc and any forums are means to communicate, not to store information. The Wiki should be for that.
<pep> Flannel: the "site" idea is to present something else, more dynamic.. but nothing keeps this site from being as editable and accessible as a wiki would be imo...
<John_B> I can set it up. My own site is Drupal
<pep> ok, next point.
<owh> I don't want to get into hosting issues today.
<owh> So, the topic infers that we need to be a little more disciplined in our information management.
<hubuntu> you can have both: http://www.spreadfirefox.com/
<pep> (I agree on john-vilsack idea of the roles of wiki and SU)
<pep> but we are not talking of the current topic I think :)
<owh> The list as I see it is a dynamic discussion to formulate ideas. We then have distribution outlets of some type to spread those resources.
<okko7> Along with the question on how we organise ourselves (structuring the team eventually with sub-groups) it might be better to do the same with the mailinglists (or other communication channels).
<owh> okko7: Too much decentralisation leads to communication issues.
<owh> The agenda point was really to do with how we contribute to the mailing list.
<pep> owh: to be honest, I often don't read most of the lists mails... it is very disorganised and difficult to follow a particular subject when people modifiy the email subject...
<owh> I expanded it to include information sharing.
<nhaines> Usually, people modify the subject line only when the topic changes.
<okko7> owh: Of course. We need to find the right equilibrium. To much centralisation is not perfect either.
<pep> :/
<Flannel> pep: Most clients can thread stuff, and even if the subject changes, there are internal IDs that'll keep threads together
<hubuntu> probably everyone on the list should have the emails sent right away and no option to have digests
<hubuntu> that really helps a lot
<owh> I agree with pep. Most of that has to do with people writing big screeds of text, rather than posting a URL and a summary.
<pep> yes, true...
<pep> maybe this will set itself once clear objectives for the team are defined, and we get working on spreadubuntu...
<pep> actively...
<nhaines> That's what mailing lists are for: discussion.  For a list of links you want RSS and Blueprints.
<owh> I'd have to hope so pep.
<John_B> but the posts on a lot of threads go off subject but don;t modify the subject line to reflect that
<okko7> It's not just a users question. It's just that one single mailinglist where EVERYTHING linked to marketing is discussed leads to an overflow of information that is difficult to follow up completly.
<owh> nhaines: The lists that I am part of that are most successful are succinct, rather than verbose.
<nhaines> owh: The trouble is that URLs disappear but ML archives are forever.
<pep> that is why we are now excluding concrete actions, and porting them to active/local level... and setting more importance on centralisation of tools and these concrete projects to use on local levels.. no?
<owh> nhaines: Right, but if the point was worth making, then it would create a resource that ended up in the published information.
<owh> +1 pep
<nhaines> owh: I disagree.  Discussion and metainformation is more important than just having a shiny product.
<nhaines> We transmit cultural knowledge by remembering why decisions were made and others dropped.
<john-vilsack> I think if we go with the idea of a multiple leaders championing all the different aspects we have to be worried about, I don't see why we can't use the wiki to keep current events summarized...
<Flannel> owh: Except in a year URLs get broken and you lose that information
<pep> yes... the problem lies in WHAT we talk about I think... which will solve itself once new objectives will be clearly stated and reminded I think...
<owh> Ok, so what proposal do you have nhaines and Flannel?
<owh> +1 pep
<nhaines> Proposal: the mailing list should be used to discuss new marketing ideas as well as current projects, and to collaborate with others on the Marketing Team goals.
<owh> WFM
<owh> Other views?
<pep> yes..
<pep> "discuss new marketing ideas as well as current projects" ? would this lead to "sorting" the projects on SU?
<hubuntu> should the loco marketing contacts put their input into the list?
<hubuntu> or formally become part of this group?
<nhaines> pep: The mailing list should be used for all discussion.
<pep> mh.. this is where I think the fragility lies...
<nhaines> Anything that then needs more real-time discussion can be put on the next IRC meeting agenda.
<owh> hubuntu: I think they should be able to contribute, just like they can in any other team.
<pep> it should be used merely for achieving the objectives we fixed ourselves for the moment I think...
<nhaines> I'm not big on the idea of formal LoCo marketing contacts.  I think it's better to be more open than that.
<owh> I'm wondering which issue in particular pep is concerned about with respect to nhaines's proposal.
<john-vilsack> I think its a good place for people to share what they think too.  Its always easy to filter a subject out that doesn't concern you.
<pep> once, SU and the organisational and exchange instance is set up and runnning it can turn more to concrete marketing discussions I think...
<pep> I fear of loosing of sight our primary goals we set ourselves on short term basis owh
<hubuntu> LoCo marketing groups is better nhaines... A specialized group of people within the LoCo gathering the information and resources we are working on to local ground level
<nhaines> hubuntu: yes, but that should be a LoCo matter and not of any direct concern for the Marketing Team.
<owh> pep: Isn't that what our regular IRC meeting will be there for?
<pep> that is: SU, the exchange platform.... the building blocks organisation..
<nhaines> hubuntu: I agree with you in principal, though.  :)
<pep> owh: yes you are righ tI suppose, that is a way of organising..
<hubuntu> yes nhaines, this would obviously apply to locos which have such a contact/team, no inforcement of any kind by the LoCo council or any other instance
<owh> Ok, so, the proposal is: the mailing list should be used to discuss new marketing ideas as well as current projects, and to collaborate with others on the Marketing Team goals.
<nhaines> +1
<john-vilsack> +1
<pep> yes.
<Flannel> owh: mailing lists used as a mailing list, yep.  +1
<pep> +A
<pep> +1
<owh> [IDEA] The mailing list should be used to discuss new marketing ideas as well as current projects, and to collaborate with others on the Marketing Team goals.
<MootBot> IDEA received:  The mailing list should be used to discuss new marketing ideas as well as current projects, and to collaborate with others on the Marketing Team goals.
<hubuntu> I believe other LoCos will, eventually, see this works and implement it, just like my LoCo has done ;)
<owh> Next topic.
<nhaines> hubuntu: doubtless.  ;)
<hubuntu> +1
<owh> [TOPIC] Discuss setting up a team forum for discussion of topics that need a more structured record of the conversation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss setting up a team forum for discussion of topics that need a more structured record of the conversation
<owh> There was some discussion about forum vs. email and I think that both have their proponents. Is there any strong feeling about this?
<nhaines> I find that I really don't follow forums, but that mailing lists are more concrete for me.
<owh> Personally, I don't like a forum and too many places for discussion causes communication issues.
<hubuntu> forums -1
<John_B> we discussed this on the list and the consensus was no forum
<nhaines> Too redundant with the ML.  -1
<dsas> forums are more structured?
<Flannel> owh: mailing list tends to work better for people, can download all messages and read them offline, etc.
<hubuntu> one place to rule them all: list for discusion, wiki for action [PERIOD]
<owh> Flannel: I agree.
<john-vilsack> Even though I think forums are more structured for threading, easier to search, and easier for others to participate in, it seemed like it was shot down in the mailing list.
<pep> I prefer email... but that would mean a sub-list linked specifically to spreadubuntu project for example.... as our list aprticipants are very numerous...
<pep> or not?
<owh> I spent a few hours trying to come up with a search tool for the list, so far I cannot embed a form into a wiki. I'll keep at it.
<Flannel> pep: No, just decent subjects
<nhaines> With all due respect, I think spreadubuntu can be something that is considered in detail once the core team objectives are decided upon.
<hubuntu> yes pep, SpreadUbuntu is a project of itself with its own structure
<pep> +1 hubuntu, adding: IRC for re-setting the aim on the correct line/not losing our objective of sight...
<owh> pep: We'll get to the IRC meeting very shortly :)
<owh> [TOPIC] Discuss ways to improve the team wiki
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss ways to improve the team wiki
<owh> Comments?
<owh> I'm looking for specific simple ideas here.
<Flannel> owh: There are some list mirrors out there that support searching and stuff, gmane actually already has it: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.marketing
<hubuntu> whatever you do, do either: use the ubuntu wiki
<pep> keep team wiki for the team manly... spreadubuntu for marketeers...
<hubuntu> or implement openID using launchpad as provider
<hubuntu> I just can't stand registering myself in many places
<owh> Flannel: Excellent, I'll update the wiki.
<pep> mainly*
<John_B> There are a lot of resources out in Ubuntu land that need to be linked to the wiki
<nhaines> Wiki is better.  LP's OpenID support still needs some refinement.
<hubuntu> I believe EVERY SINGLE part of the ubuntu community should implement that
<owh> [ACTION] owh to update wiki to include gmain search link.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  owh to update wiki to include gmain search link.
<pep> +1 hubuntu
<nhaines> Ooh, that's good.
<owh> There is a project underway in ubuntu-server to unify search as well.
<hubuntu> pep +1 spreadubuntu for marketers, wiki for the team
<John_B> about time LOL
<owh> So, we cannot ourselves update the wiki software to implement OpenID, but we can add it as a todo.
<john-vilsack> I think having leaders with ownership in specific areas will dramatically increase the quality of the wiki as a whole.
<dsas> the wiki is being upgraded shortly
<pep> it would be a general ubuntu-todo
<owh> Who wants to take that in hand?
<nhaines> john-vilsack: +1
<hubuntu> if spreadubuntu uses drupal, for instance, openID is easy to implement
<Flannel> owh: offtopic, but -server is on gmane as well: http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.server
<dsas> A newer version of moinmoin is being tested now.
<hubuntu> launchpad.net login to login everywhere should be the goal
<pep> +1 hubuntu
<nhaines> hubuntu: +1 there as well.
<owh> Flannel: Yeah, the search is ubuntu-wide.
<hubuntu> moinmoins new version support it too
<owh> So, any other ideas to improve the wiki?
<owh> [IDEA] Implement LP OpenID on the wiki
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Implement LP OpenID on the wiki
<john-vilsack> 5 minutes left.
<pep> :)
<hubuntu> we should go on till it's over
<owh> Next topic:
<owh> [TOPIC] Establish guideline for new content
<MootBot> New Topic:  Establish guideline for new content
<hubuntu> the channel is not to be used by anyone else
<john-vilsack> ok good.  I was getting worried there!
<owh> I agree with hubuntu, but I'm mindful that not all will be able to.
<pep> Establish guideline for new content? you mean focusing content of discussions on our previsouly redefined goals?
<owh> This topic to me is a little premature.
<john-vilsack> Agreed.  We gotta set the table before we can start to eat :)
<owh> Objections?
<hubuntu> owh can you extend the time for activity by mootbot or is it not necessary?
<owh> [TOPIC] Discuss better integration of marketing related content that already exists on the Ubuntu wiki from other teams
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss better integration of marketing related content that already exists on the Ubuntu wiki from other teams
<owh> hubuntu: Dunno
<owh> I think this topic has the same problem.
<pep> this topic will be looked on after having the infrastructure to implement the existing content in imo...
<dsas> guys openid is already implemented for the wiki
<hubuntu> wait this topic is more relevant than the previous one
<dsas> it's just being tested now.
<dsas> https://testwiki.ubuntu.com/
<hubuntu> dsas given we use some other wiki or drupal or whatever
<owh> dsas: Excellent, can you report to us next meeting?
<dsas> owh: It's only by fluke I'm here now.
<dsas> owh: So maybe, depends when it is.
<owh> dsas: You'll use the list then :)
<pep> wow looks good
<dsas> (it has been in testing for a while)
<john-vilsack> I think its tough to talk about merging content from the other groups until we have envoys from those groups and we have a place to merge them to :)
<hubuntu> in the wiki it's not an issue as thelaunchpad login ID is the same as  wiki login ID
<owh> [ACTION] dsas to report on LP OpenID for the wiki using appropriate method.
<pep> +1 john-vilsack, it is what I meant
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dsas to report on LP OpenID for the wiki using appropriate method.
<dsas> hubuntu: check the link I pasted, press login.
<owh> hubuntu: So, what did you mean?
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-06-08
<hubuntu> wholly cow dsas
<hubuntu> that I had not seen
<Flannel> john-vilsack: content should probably be volunteered (or at least asked permission of), even with liberal licensing.
<hubuntu> *holly
<owh> hubuntu: You objected to moving past this topic, do you still object?
<hubuntu> wonderful!
<Flannel> john-vilsack: and perhaps just forwarded to on the wiki, in case of updates/changes/etc instead of mirrored
<john-vilsack> Flannel: Agreed, but we are no where near ready to begin getting those I think.
<hubuntu> keep on
<hubuntu> my point is not too rlevant as of yet
<Flannel> john-vilsack: No, I agree with that as well.
<pep> Flannel: if we count on loco team action to upload it to us... we do not have tha t problem... but SU has to be on foot before that to happen anyway...
<owh> Flannel: Or, just include the text from their page.
<pep> I think we are all agreeing on this point.
<owh> Right, moving on.
<owh> [TOPIC] Discuss and possibly revise the team meeting schedule
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss and possibly revise the team meeting schedule
<hubuntu> we need the basic structure (SU) first
<owh> As I've been up since 2am to prepare, this item is of particular interest to me. However, if I'm not chairing the meeting, being here at 5am to attend is fine - ie. keep the meeting to 21:00 UTC.
<pep> +1 hubuntu ;)
<owh> We'll also need to discuss frequency.
<Flannel> pep: No, SU is auxiliary to this.  We don't need a separate website, and again, we can go in search of content and then inquire about it.
<owh> +1 Flannel
<hubuntu> Flannel, I do not agree there
<pep> Flannel: I'm not sure it has much sense jsut searching for content, if you don't know where to go and what to do with it...
<hubuntu> SU is important as of now to see short time result
<hubuntu> s
<owh> May I observe that we cannot solve all our issues today, we can flag them and deal with them one at a time.
<hubuntu> I have collected lots of content in Spanish and have a wiki page for that
<pep> of course..
<owh> hubuntu: Is there an action point you want to add?
<hubuntu> I have announced it to the Spanish LoCo contacts
<hubuntu> but its visibility its doubtful
<Flannel> pep: I meant the marketing team finds content, asks about collecting, cataloging, promoting, and so forth.  not some search form.
<john-vilsack> I think the meeting time today was fine.
<hubuntu> SU would make it a one stop shop
<hubuntu> and we need to start that ASAP
<pep> Flannel: I see, yes...
<owh> hubuntu: Yes, initially our wiki will do that while we find our feet.
<hubuntu> I for one am willing to dedicate a lot of time on it if necessary
<Flannel> hubuntu: There's no reason it can't be on the Wiki, and you can start today with that.
<pep> (our team's aim number one on short term basis should be SU, so +1 on hubuntu
<hubuntu> Flannel, as I said I have, theres no point on waiting
<hubuntu> we should ask for Su right away
<pep> me too am willing to involve in this... but after my exams :D
<hubuntu> why wait?
<pep> we will ahve to structure our ideas around this in a future meeting
<Flannel> hubuntu: You can ask and wait yes, and while doing that, can get started with the wiki
<owh> +1 Flannel
<Flannel> hubuntu: The wiki has no lead time required, SU has an unknown amount.  Don't need to wait
<hubuntu> +1 Flannel
<owh> hubuntu: We're not saying that you cannot have SU, just that it will take time.
<hubuntu> ask for SU and start collecting material right away
<pep> wiki for marketeer usage? or for team usage.
<pep> ?
<owh> Right, can we get back to our topic please?
<hubuntu> SU for marketers, wiki for the team
<pep> ok
<hubuntu> the time is fine
<owh> Is that so for all (still) here?
<hubuntu> for me...
<owh> What about frequency?
<John_B> yes
<hubuntu> once a month to make a report
 * owh suspects initially once a week, then later spread to once a month.
<hubuntu> every 2 weeks to check the pulse
<John_B> monthly at lEAST
<owh> Keep the meetings short to get stuff going before burn out occurs.
<hubuntu> so 3 meetings monthly
<pep> I would say once a month.. we have the list the rest of the time...
<pep> ah ok, short meetings then :)
<pep> and maybe a bigger one once a month
<pep> ?
<owh> pep: Yeah, not mammoth ones like this one.
<pep> ^^
<john-vilsack> It all depends.  If we move to make a core marketing team, then they would be having meetings more often to report activity levels.  I think monthly marketing meetings would be fine on top of that, especially considering all groups would be showing activity on the wiki as well.
<pep> +1! john-vilsack
<owh> john-vilsack: Well we don't yet have agreement on your statement, that's the next topic.
<Flannel> owh: If you keep information flowing on the ML, you don't need meetings so frequently.  Especially because once a week is a bit difficult for everyone to make all the time, while mailing list is all inclusive
<pep> +1 Flannel too
<owh> So there are proposals for Weekly, Fortnightly and Monthly.
<pep> I'm not sure it will be very efective more than once a month...
<hubuntu> true. +1 Flannel..
<owh> Proposal: Meet once a month at 21:00 UTC on Saturday.
<hubuntu> owh
<pep> good.
<john-vilsack> agreed!
<John_B> yes
<hubuntu> I know this time suits us, but maybe we should give next meeting a shot another time
<hubuntu> just the next one, so more people can come
<owh> I think that would create confusion.
<pep> why? maybe make a poll on a wiki or poll-site and propose it to the list...
<hubuntu> another hour.. I'm thinking of VidA
<owh> If people want to make a point, they could do that by proxy.
<hubuntu> ok...
<hubuntu> fair enough
<John_B> first Sat of every month 2100 UTC
<owh> I suspect that until there are objections we should leave it as is for the moment.
<pep> so we agree on the time? it is fine for me, but we could vote if really there are people not able to come...
<pep> ok, fine, +1 owh
<John_B> keep it regular so people can make adjustments
<pep> yes
<Flannel> pep: polling can be done on Launchpad, by the way.
<john-vilsack> In honor of the Olympics in August, we can move the meeting after next to Bejing time ;)
<pep> Flannel: ah yes, true :)
<owh> Yuk
<owh> So, are we agreed on John_B's definition?
<john-vilsack> +1 John_B
<owh> Who can schedule the room for that and update the wiki?
<John_B> you pay my air fare???LOL
<hubuntu> just post the summary in the list and ask people at the frdige to help us with that trick
<john-vilsack> If you're comfortable continuing to chair them OWH, why not you?
<owh> [ACTION] Schedule the ubuntu-meeting room for the first Saturday of the month at 21:00 UTC - hubuntu
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Schedule the ubuntu-meeting room for the first Saturday of the month at 21:00 UTC - hubuntu
<hubuntu> I have no idea who fixed this one, but I just did as I just said
<owh> john-vilsack: We'll get to that shortly :)
<owh> hubuntu: You can do it again :)
<owh> Right, next point.
<owh> [TOPIC] Team Structure
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team Structure
<hubuntu> I'm on vacation in july, but doing it now for the rest of the year should do ;)
<pep> critical...
<owh> Onto the Team Structure. This item is quite large and I've left it until now because we needed to understand a little about who we are and what we do.
<owh> In order to determine the structure, we have several proposals that include a number of roles and titles.
<owh> While for some that provides a handy reference, others feel that such things impose too much of a Chiefs and Indians division.
<owh> Comments?
<hubuntu> egalitarian levels no matter what we do
<hubuntu> as in reflecting in the denomination of the people on board the team
<pep> yes... but democratically chosen people to frame it all, like owh does here...
<owh> My observation is that consensus works better than hierarchy as well.
<pep> yes
<john-vilsack> In order to have direction, we have to have leadership.  In order to have accountability, we have to have hierarchy.  In order to have balance, we have to have more than one.
<Flannel> I propose deferring structure decision until the entire team has a chance to look over the goals/objectives/etc, as that may influence their opinion on adequate structuring.
<hubuntu> john-vilsack, most other community teams have a board
<hubuntu> countign from 5- up to 8 people (I think)
<pep> working on equal basis does not exclude having somebody who can be chairman, etc.... and decisions will be taken by voting...
<owh> john-vilsack: Well, yes and no. I am providing leadership by chairing this meeting. I'm accountable because people will notice that I didn't turn up. Hierarchy is not involved.
<pep> +1 Flannel
<hubuntu> we should go with that I think
<Flannel> (although I think 1 month is a long time to deferr initially)
<pep> it can be discussed (and will...) on the list I suppose...
<hubuntu> and let people vote on posible members of it
<john-vilsack> My proposal calls for ten members leading the core-marketing team.  Two would be envoys from other areas, the rest would be volunteers from this group
<owh> Well, my next topic was elections and I don't think it would be appropriate to elect anyone today for a number of reasons.
<hubuntu> through LP
<john-vilsack> owh:  Yes, but it IS a position of responsibility.
<owh> john-vilsack: I read that and it concerned me greatly.
<hubuntu> agree with owh
<john-vilsack> owh: How so?  Its very similar to other projects and not-for profit groups I've worked on.  I'm interested to hear thoughts.
<owh> You have to realise that this is a voluntary effort. I got up at 2am to prepare for this meeting. I did it not because anyone told me to, but because I decided to be there.
<dsas> I think the team likely needs a short while to see what sticks and mature a little before forming councils and things.
<pep> john-vilsack's proposal is good... but might lead to dissapointement and rivality amongst team members... but i join him in thinking that it is necessary...
<pep> but it needs time yes!! definitely
<Flannel> dsas +1
<hubuntu>  dsas +1
<pep> +1
<owh> dsas: I agree with you also.
<hubuntu> it will hapen by itself and leading figures will emerge by naturally
<owh> So, let me see if I can come up with something that works here.
<john-vilsack> dsas: How can you make things stick if there is no delineated area of responsibility?
<dsas> hubuntu: I was about to say that that might happen of its own accord.
<pep> owh: the volunteer decision does not dissapear with a strcturing, framing group of people who make sure things don't go out of hand and goal..
<dsas> john-vilsack: People will assume responsibility for things they care about.
<owh> dsas: +1
<owh> I understand that there is a perceived need to have "a board" of some sort. I've just found that it isn't necessary to get stuff done.
<hubuntu> john-vilsack, think of the CoC
<hubuntu> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
<Flannel> john-vilsack: I think the operative term was "short while"
<hubuntu> we are really serious about what we do
<dsas> The ubuntu-documentation group has no elected leader, no council.
<john-vilsack> As a volunteer effort, you have to be aware that people who do not wish responsibility will do things voluntary.  There are those that would be willing to step up and have themselves held accountable for their responsibilities amongst their peers.  It would be these people who sacrifice the freedom to just walk away in an effort to champion the areas that they are responsible for.
<owh> And it works really well.
<owh> john-vilsack: Sure, but they don't need to be elected for that to happen
<pep> no
<dsas> what it does have is people who have been working long and hard and have just assumed it in specific areas.
<pep> +1 owh
<hubuntu> and remeber that even though Mark is sabdfl, we are all here voluntary working on a project he started, but has become ours
<Flannel> again, I propose we take this topic to the mailing lists until the next meeting, as our previous decisions today can affect the opinions of those who aren't here, and those who are here as well, once time has passed for it to sink and people to get aquainted.
<dsas> (because everyone else assumes t of them)
<pep> but if there is no election whatsoever, there is a risk of branches of the team going in diferent directions...
<hubuntu> sabdfl as in self appointed benevolent dictator for life
<john-vilsack> owh: Documentation has finite boundaries.  What we've discussed here is developing a new, front facing website dedicated to spreading the word of Ubuntu, aggregating existing documentation, forming the basis of relationships between Canonical and through us the LoCos....its a big workload.
<pep> +1 Flannel
<owh> pep: There is nothing wrong with that.
<owh> +1 Flannel
<owh> Right, is that done then?
<john-vilsack> Not yet.
<owh> Sure, what have you got for us?
<john-vilsack> Personally, I think we should move to review the different plans and vote to adopt one.  Without it, I feel we are listlessly moving forward no matter how much we think we are accomplishing.
<john-vilsack> That can be on the mailing list, but it should be on some agenda somewhere.
<owh> john-vilsack: Uhm, I strongly disagree with your assessment.
<john-vilsack> even if one of those plans is "the plan to adopt no plan"
<Flannel> john-vilsack: We've deferred it until the next meeting, as far as I'm aware (or at least, if my proposal is accepted)
<pep> I think it is premature to adopt a plan today.
<owh> john-vilsack: This meeting has created a specific list of goals and objectives, agreed to by the people who turned up.
<hubuntu> the plan to wait and see what plan comes up and gets endorsement by the group as a whole
<hubuntu> +1 Flannel
<pep> again, +1 ....
<owh> Flannel: You're just talking about the structure right, not goals and objectives.
<john-vilsack> So we have a plan to come up with a plan? Or a plan to look at a plan to discuss planning of the plan?
<pep> yes
<pep> plan to come up with a plan
<hubuntu> something like that john-vilsack, yes
<Flannel> owh: I'm saying that the goals/objectives we already decided on will shape some peoples ideas of what sort of structure we ought to have.  So yes, the stuff we've decided, has been decided.
 * owh is unsure of what is being said here.
<hubuntu> I'm not sure which one though...
<owh> Flannel: Right, but does john-vilsack understand that to be the case?
<pep> is being said: we have said a lot, too much to decide which structure to take on today...
<Flannel> owh: Basically, the "how do we want to organize this puppy" is being discussed further, and we'll pick it up (and hopefully decide) next meeting.
<owh> I agree
<pep> yes
<owh> So, let me phrase this then.
<john-vilsack> Since we plan on not planning to plan our plan today, I propose that we call for requests from the mailing list to have plans submitted over the course of the next month to be voted on by this group as a whole at the next meeting.
<Flannel> john-vilsack: We're discussing on mailing lists for 1 month (until next meeting), at next meeting, it's "already" on the agenda, to decide
<hubuntu> john-vilsack, that is just what Flannel proposed
<owh> Proposal: Further discussion to the appropriate structure of this team is to be had on the list and to be discussed and decided upon in the next meeting.
<pep> +1
<hubuntu> lag...
<owh> I'm not yet sure that we're talking about the same thing.
<john-vilsack> Ok, but just to be clear, hasn't the past month been a discussion of that plan already?  I thought my plan aggregated what I read to an extent.
<hubuntu> could maybe add a poll on LP for that to get votes by poeople not making it to the next meeting?
<John_B> that's too long of a time frame. we should have the structure in place by next meeting
<dsas> The ubuntu community generally works by consensus rather than straight up democracy.
<hubuntu> which would be like get a list one week before the meting so we can think and vote
<owh> I'm concerned that john-vilsack is talking about more than just the structure of the group.
<hubuntu> as we did with the agenda today
<Flannel> john-vilsack: We had no well defined goals in that month, now we know what the marketing team is all about.
<pep> John_B: I disagree... I join Flannel in thinknig that what has been said should be presented to the rest of the team
<pep> and more generally... why are we only like 8 people?
<owh> John_B: Decisions are made by those who show up. You were here, you participated.
<pep> shouldn't we be more to discuss this important decision? that is why i preconise not deciding today...
<Flannel> John_B: I agree that 1 month is a long time, and two weeks would probably be adequate, but we have a meeting in one month, so that makes a convienent place.
<owh> pep: Well, the rest had different priorities, there is nothing wrong with that.
<hubuntu> a lot of people is watching I believe pep
<john-vilsack> owh: The point in contention in my plan that I am concerned with is the development of the core-markters group.
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Jun 10:30 UTC: Michigan LoCo Bug Jam | 10 Jun 11:00 UTC: Asia and Oceania Ubuntu Membership Approval Board | 10 Jun 15:00 UTC: Server Team | 11 Jun 06:00 UTC: Platform Team | 11 Jun 17:00 UTC: QA Team | 11 Jun 21:00 UTC:  Server Team
<pep> fine.
<hubuntu> we need not be more than 8 at this stage anyway... people will adhere to our activities if not formally to the team anyway
<Flannel> hubuntu: Generally (the way its handled in other teams) ispeople who can't make the meeting can just indicate their votes ahead of time, and they'll be echoed at the meeting (of course, then they don't get to hear what is discussed at meetings, but it cant be perfct)
<John_B> maybe because only 8 people cared enough about the team to make the effort
<owh> john-vilsack: Yes, and we're saying that this is a contentious issue that cannot be resolved simply by your proposal.
<hubuntu> yes, but the votes on what. and that what must be defined in advance
<pep> John_B: I only partially agree..
<Flannel> John_B: Or because its odd timing for some people.  Not everyone is in the western hemisphere.
<owh> John_B: Well, that's a little harsh. There is a log, there are 121 people in the room, more than 8 people will see our discussion.
<pep> dine, so as I see this, we are *not* going to take a decision today about team structure... right?
<pep> fine*
<owh> +1 pep
<john-vilsack> So then let's make it an agenda item for the next meeting:  Vote on and choose a proposed structure for the core-marketing team (if any).
<Flannel> hubuntu: Well, the MeetingAgenda should have the different proposals well ahead of time
<hubuntu> right pep
<pep> it must ne yes, john-vilsack
<pep> be*
<owh> john-vilsack: We'll get to that in a moment, but yet.
<hubuntu> then I agree with Flannel
<hubuntu> :)
<owh> s/yet/yes/
<Flannel> john-vilsack: The "deciding on structure" is already nthe agenda.  Whether that includes a "core marketing team" is eyt to be decided.
<pep> (sorry it's 1.33am ^^)
<owh> Right, Flannel, can you please state your proposal one last time?
<Flannel> I propose we deferr this topic (that of structure and governance) to the mailing lists until the next meeting.
<owh> Objections?
<Flannel> or sorry.
<pep> no
<Flannel> I propose that we deferr discussion to the mailing lists, and deferr the topic itself to the next meeting.
<owh> +1
<pep> correct :)
<Flannel> darn those extra 'r's
<hubuntu> +1
<owh> Flannel: Can you send a message regarding that to the list?
<john-vilsack> I disagree.
<john-vilsack> I think we need to have something more actionable in place for the next meeting.
<Flannel> owh: Someone is already writing a summary of this meeting to the list, correct?
<pep> that is why the discussion is being deferred to the list directly
<hubuntu> and we do, because the agenda will summarize the discussed points in the list
<hubuntu> right?
<john-vilsack> By that language, we are deferring only the discussion of the plan to create the structure, not the plan to vote on the structure proposals in the first place.
<owh> Flannel: Well, yes, there was a scribe, but they seemed to have vanished, so I'll be taking volunteers shortly.
<Flannel> john-vilsack: the voting will take place at the meeting.
<hubuntu> the scribe can still do the job with a log file
<pep> well, then set an ultimatum.... deferring discussion and concrete proposals on the agenda for next meeting...
<owh> Proposal: I propose that we defer discussion to the mailing lists, and defer the topic and vote itself to the next meeting.
<pep> decision wil be taken
<hubuntu> +1 owh
<Flannel> john-vilsack: instead of "discuss here, vote now", discuss on ML, vote at next meeting.
<john-vilsack> +1 owh
<pep> +1
<Flannel> +1
<John_B> 0
<owh> Flannel: Happy with that?
<owh> John_B: Comments?
<pep> slow writer? :)
<owh> While John_B is formulating his thoughts, Flannel, can I ask you to write that separately to the list?
<hubuntu> sleeping
<hubuntu> ;)
<Flannel> owh: No problem
<owh> [ACTION] Flannel to send message to the list to announce that we will defer discussion to the mailing lists, and defer the topic and vote itself to the next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Flannel to send message to the list to announce that we will defer discussion to the mailing lists, and defer the topic and vote itself to the next meeting
<owh> Right, John_B were you going to comment?
<pep> I think he is afk...
<owh> Ok, we'll move on.
<owh> So, that concludes the agenda. Are there any other items remaining for discussion?
<owh> Excellent :)
<hubuntu> anyone has an idea on how to ask for Spread Ubuntu?
<pep> ask?
<hubuntu> Launchpad with Canonical SYsadmins or what?
<pep> what for?
<pep> what do you want them to give you?
<hubuntu> start collecting material AND ask for SU
<hubuntu> was the agreement if I'm not wrong
<owh> hubuntu: Initially I would contact elmo.
<hubuntu> elmo, ok
<owh> hubuntu: Do you want me to make you an action point for that?
<pep> well SU should be developed, thought and discussed of, and created, before redirecting the URL anyway...
<john-vilsack> We would probably want to have some proof of concept online for them to see, or at least ask for how we can repoint it once we have something.
<owh> Personally, I think we should focus on getting our wiki content in order first.
<pep> yes... we should start a ML thread and set a team up around SU ...
<owh> Ok, any final comments before I close the meeting?
<pep> we can do both.. setting up a team for SU does not exclude the wiki work and progress...
<John_B> no
<pep> no other comments...
<john-vilsack> No, thanks for taking care of it owh.  I'm just happy to be here and be a part of this!
<hubuntu> sorry
<hubuntu> compiz killed me'
<owh> hubuntu: Do you want me to make you an action point to investigate SU?
<pep> hubuntu: <pep> yes... we should start a ML thread and set a team up around SU ... <owh> Personally, I think we should focus on getting our wiki content in order first. <pep> we can do both.. setting up a team for SU does not exclude the wiki work and progress...
<pep> hubuntu: <john-vilsack> We would probably want to have some proof of concept online for them to see, or at least ask for how we can repoint it once we have something.
<hubuntu> I believe pep and I will do it and report to the list,m right pep?
<pep> that's about it :)
<owh> [ACTION] hubuntu and pep to investigate spreadubuntu.com and report to the list.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  hubuntu and pep to investigate spreadubuntu.com and report to the list.
 * hubuntu gives high five to pep!
<owh> Thank you all for your attendance and again for your hard work. There is more to come.
<pep> yes, fine... I am in exams very actively until the 23rd though, I took tonight off and should go to sleep, it is already almost 2am^^ so I'll be active from then on mostly...
<hubuntu> hei owh thanks for your wonderful work and commitment
 * pep gives high five back!
<pep> and thanks owh...
<owh> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:48.
<hubuntu> really.. 2 am that's just remarkably good
<pep> good work
<john-vilsack> Thanks all.  Take care and I'll see you on the ML
<owh> Can someone please mail me their log, so I can reconstruct the netsplit part?
<owh> s/someone/a few of you/
<hubuntu> I am going to take a look at the SU stuff right now
<hubuntu> my log got truncated by compiz...
<hubuntu> sorry :(
<pep> owh: my log is small actually :/
<pep> I'll check
<hubuntu> the bot must have it
<hubuntu> some bot at least
<pep> I'm afraid I have lost it
<owh> hubuntu: Well there was a time when the bot wasn't in the room
<hubuntu> there are several bots here
<hubuntu> :)
<Flannel> owh: Whats your email?
<owh> onno@itmaze.com.au
<owh> Flannel: Tah.
<owh> Thanks all, later...
<hubuntu> peace
<pep> see you
<pep> I'm off also.. get some sleep...
<hubuntu> how long have we been here?
<pep> bye hubuntu, we'll keep in touch
<hubuntu> almost 3 hours...
<hubuntu> yes pep, your email?
<pep> pvorhagen@gmail.com
<hubuntu> or name on the ML?
<pep> I am often on IRC
<pep> Pierre Vorhagen, I never wrote to the u-marketing ML to tell the truth :)
<hubuntu> I'll see yupou around in this channel then
<pep> I never found a topic very interesting, a lot of blah...
<hubuntu> what can I say... I like blah
<pep> hubuntu: I am in #ubuntu-marketing
<hubuntu> pep: so am I
<pep> see you later guys, bb
<hubuntu> bb
<hubuntu> ok people, thanks for showing up
<hubuntu> get some rest
<Flannel> .
<hubuntu> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-02
<mdz> Keybuk: hi
<cody-somerville> :)
<Keybuk> mdz: sorry, major technical failure
<Keybuk> mouse just froze
<mdz> Keybuk: will you be able to chair the meeting or do you need to hand it off?
<Keybuk> I shall chair
<Keybuk> I've just recovered it
<Keybuk> hardware failure
<mdz> ok
<cjwatson> hello
<Keybuk> cjwatson:
<Keybuk> ah, there you are
<Keybuk> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:03. The chair is Keybuk.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] # IRC Council ops privileges in #ubuntu-devel (Jussi Schultink)
<MootBot> New Topic:  # IRC Council ops privileges in #ubuntu-devel (Jussi Schultink)
<Keybuk> Jussi Schultink requested that the IRC Council operators be added to the Access Control List for #ubuntu-devel
<Keybuk> which is currently the TB members
<Keybuk> is Jussi here?
<mdz> randa said that Jussi would be here
<sabdfl> i'm +1 that the irc council governance should include #ubuntu-devel
<randa> jussi01 ^^
<jussi01> Oh, sorry, Im here
<sabdfl> happy for TB to have additional privileges there, as we have in other channels that are mainly driven by a particular team
<cjwatson> I have to say I tended to agree with Scott's e-mail response; #ubuntu-devel's governance has traditionally been separate and AFAICS this has actually been healthy
<cjwatson> it wasn't clear to me what problem we were trying to solve
<Keybuk> as should be clear from my mail, I'm -1
<mdz> I am neutral on this so far; I don't have much experience with the IRC council, nor am I informed about the problem that needs solving here (if there is one)
<mdz> Keybuk: I think your mail only went to t-b@, so perhaps you'd like to summarize here?
<Keybuk> mdz:  my mail was deliberately private
<jussi01> Yeah, was just going to comment I didnt see any additional mail
<Keybuk> in summary: I do not trust the IRC Council, I think they create more problems, and I don't think we have a problem that needs solving
<jono> Keybuk, have you shared your concerns with the IRC Council?
<Keybuk> jono: yes, repeatedly
<cjwatson> I don't see a problem with granting individuals additional access; the current list is certainly not just the technical board
<Keybuk> my concerns include the fact that the IRC Council are currently ignoring a recommendation by the CC and SABDFL over their policing of channels
<cody-somerville> Didn't the IRC Council use to have access to #ubuntu-devel but it got intentionally revoked due to a particular incident or something?
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: not in my memory
<Keybuk> cody-somerville: no, they have never had access
<sabdfl> having the IRC council exercise their authority in #ubuntu-devel would give us a better sense of how they handle IRC elsewhere
<Keybuk> #ubuntu-devel (obviously) predates its formation
<cody-somerville> Or sorry, not the IRC Council but members from the IRC op team
<sabdfl> i strongly dislike carving out "special" territory as a workaround to a lack of trust
<cjwatson> I'm concerned that any time we do see policing from non-developers on #ubuntu-devel, it seems to simply make the situation worse
<mdz> jussi01: when you originally raised this, you mentioned that there had been some problems which had come to the attention of -ops, which you couldn't respond to due to lack of privileges
<jussi01> The original reason I borught the up was we had a few ops calls that were not dealt with, and I wanted to make sure they were being dealt with.
<mdz> jussi01: can you tell us about those problems?
<cjwatson> I feel that the people who moderate a channel ought to be participants in that channels
<cjwatson> channel
<jono> is it necessary to have further ops in #ubuntu-devel?
<mdz> jono: if the ops = TB, then we are all in the same time zone most of the time, which is not ideal
<cjwatson> my observation *has* been that our timezone coverage in #ubuntu-devel has not always been as good as it ought to be
<sabdfl> cjwatson: is that different for #ubuntu-devel, or does it mean we should rethink the IRC council? (speaking with my CC hat on)
<Keybuk> jono: I am not aware of any ops-level problem that was not solved by those we do have
<cody-somerville> I'm in #ubuntu-devel every day almost 24/7. There is rarely an issue that doesn't get immediately resolved.
<jussi01> mdz: I havent the issues right at hand atm, but they were not overly serious, mainly just a nuisance from memory.
<Keybuk> jono: indeed, I can think of at least two incidents when ubuntu developers have been accused of being offtopic
<jono> mdz, agreed, but I thought other people were ops too
 * ogra thought that too
<sabdfl> cody-somerville: nevertheless, in Ubuntu we have setup the IRC council to lead IRC infrastructure, and I think it's destructive to carve out areas from that leadership
<Keybuk> jono: they are
<cjwatson> sabdfl: #ubuntu-devel is maybe more ... concentrated? ... than some, but I do think it's a general issue
<mdz> Keybuk: you said earlier that it was just TB members
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, I'm not disagreeing. I just want to point out that #ubuntu-devel is generally well kept.
<Keybuk> mdz: the ownership is TB members
<Keybuk> the access list is a bunch of developers
<Keybuk> including a couple of irc council people
<mdz> Keybuk: oh, I see
<cjwatson> I would be happy for the IRC council to have access if we had a commitment from the IRC council to not institute radically different channel policies from those that exist right now without developer consensus
<Keybuk> -ChanServ- Entry Nickname/Host          Flags
<Keybuk>  ----- ---------------------- -----
<Keybuk>  1     *!*@freenode/staff/*   +votiA [modified ? ago]
<Keybuk>  2     mneptok                +votriRA [modified 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 19:04:08 ago]
<Keybuk>  3     cjwatson               +votsriRfAF [modified 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 19:05:26 ago]
<Keybuk>  4     Mithrandir             +votsriRA [modified ? ago]
<Keybuk>  5     infinity               +votsriRA [modified ? ago]
<cjwatson> (which IMO ought to be general practice anyway, with s/developer/general channel population/)
<Keybuk>  6     Hobbsee                +votriRA [modified 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 19:03:56 ago]
<Keybuk>  7     thom                   +votsriRfA [modified ? ago]
<Keybuk>  8     mdz                    +votsriRfAF [modified 1 year, 0 weeks, 0 days, 19:05:18 ago]
<Keybuk>  9     lamont                 +votriRA [modified ? ago]
<Keybuk>  10    Keybuk                 +votsriRfAF [modified ? ago]
<Keybuk>  ----- ---------------------- -----#
<jussi01> none of those are on the IRC council
<sabdfl> thombot!
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I have an objection to the IRC Council's current policies
<jussi01> with the exception we have 2 freenode staff on the council
<mdz> it sounds to me like #ubuntu-devel might not have a problem which needs solving at the moment
<Keybuk> jussi01: mneptok used to be, no?
<Pici> Keybuk: no
<jussi01> Keybuk: no
<jono> one solution would be to identify the key concerns from the CC with the IRC Council and then provide ops access to #ubuntu-devel when those concerns have been tended to
 * sabdfl thinks to nominate keybuk to the IRC council
<jono> heh
<mdz> for reference, the IRC council is:
<cody-somerville> Is the IRC Council looking to staff the op list in #ubuntu-devel or just add that special nick that is shared between members of the IRC Council?
<mdz> [LINK] https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-council
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: the request was for the latter
<mdz>  Benjamin Rubin
<mdz> Joseph Price
<mdz> Jussi Schultink
<mdz> Marek Spruell
<mdz> Melissa Draper
<mdz> Nick Ali
<cody-somerville> Are they looking for just op access or founder access? (ie. ownership of the channel)
<mdz> cody-somerville: +votriRA
<jussi01> cody-somerville: just op access
<cody-somerville> Doesn't the IRC Council generally seek founder access for Ubuntu channels? Why not in this case?
<cjwatson> I do tend to agree with sabdfl that it's bad to work around broken processes in one place in the project in another place, rather than fixing the process; I find the comment that the existing governance chain (i.e. a CC recommendation) is not working in this case to be disturbing, though, and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with "experimenting" on #ubuntu-devel
<cjwatson> I'd like to have a reference for the recommendation that's currently unimplemented
<jono> cjwatson, agreed
<mdz> any matter of general concern with regard to the IRC council should go to the CC
<mdz> and this discussion should be limited to the matter of #ubuntu-devel
<cjwatson> indeed, but it is germane
<mdz> consensus would appear to be that the situation in #ubuntu-devel is stable
<mdz> I'm inclined to leave it alone if it is working fine, and thus to redirect to the CC
<sabdfl> i don't think of it as experimentation - the IRC council are trusted in the project, just as the TB council are
<jono> if the situation is stable right now, why don't we focus on fixing the IRC Council problems and then review the request again later?
<jono> maybe in 2 months
<sabdfl> it would be better to invite them into this house to see how they do, than to judge them prematurely
<sabdfl> issues can be addressed if they arise, and that would be improving ubuntu as a whole
<sabdfl> i think it's very bad form for one part of the project - especially the development team in a floss project - to carve out its own turf
<cody-somerville> If the IRC Council is going to get ops in #ubuntu-devel, they should probably get ownership as well like they do normally.
<sabdfl> jono: hard to work with an IRC council while we are saying they are not trusted. better to demonstrate faith, and hold those in charge accountable to a high standard
<sabdfl> cody-somerville: what's the difference between ops and ownership?
<cjwatson> what is our fallback option if the situation in #ubuntu-devel starts deteriorating noticeably?
<sabdfl> cjwatson: replace the IRC council
<nalioth> cody-somerville: the main goal is to have more ops available.  this is why we strongly suggest to all the *buntu* channels to add freenode staff to the ACL
<jussi01> Which #ubuntu-devel has
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, They can manage channel options and administravia and what not with the founder flag.
<jono> sabdfl, I agree, but the impression I get is that there are enough concerns being raised to focus on fixing these issues before their mandate is expanded
<Keybuk> we have two suggestions
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, For example, for #xubuntu, the resolution was to give ubuntuirccounci1 +fF
<nalioth> i'm not sure i'm on the same sheet of music as you guys, but what "issues" involving the ircc are we discussing?
<Keybuk> 1. replace #ubuntu-devel ownership with the IRC Council now
<cody-somerville> Keybuk, Multiple people can have ownership of a channel
<Keybuk> 2. examine and resolve current issues with the IRC Council and review afterwards
<cjwatson> sabdfl: if it were merely "we disagree", I'd be with you; I am specifically concerned by the comment that there are *already* CC recommendations being ignored, which if true means that the governance process is ineffective
<Keybuk> cody-somerville: Mark's opinion seems to be strongly that IRC Council should have absolute rule, with no special cases
<cjwatson> which is why I'd like to see a reference for that
<sabdfl> Keybuk: don't put words in my mouth
<cody-somerville> Keybuk, sabdfl: For #xubuntu, the irccouncil isn't the only person with founder access. I also have founder access.
<sabdfl> having ops is not "absolute rule", it's permission to collaborate with the other people who have ops in that channel
<Keybuk> sabdfl: sorry, I was merely trying to summarise your opinion?
<sabdfl> we've established that most channels do, and should, have domain-specific owners / ops
<sabdfl> and i think that's a good pattern
<jono> another option is to provide access for the IRCC and then review their work there in a month?
<sabdfl> i think the people driving a particular thread (kubuntu, xubuntu, tb, core dev, desktop team) should be able to put ops up
<cjwatson> does op access include the ability (technically or socially) to establish on-join messages, change policies, etc.?
<jono> that might be a more appropriate position to take
<sabdfl> but i think the irc council should be able to manage a team of ops across the whole project too
<nalioth> cjwatson: no
<sabdfl> jono: +1
<jussi01> sabdfl: the thing that Im trying to get across is that the IRC council should be on that access list, as a safety net, similar to the freenode staff on there.
<sabdfl> i'd like to draw this ops work into a very visible space, and see how it goes
<sabdfl> jussi01: agreed
<persia> For most channels, IRC Council has shared ownership, but may not have ops, depending on the activity of the existing ops in the channel, and their ability to cover any outstanding issues.
<jussi01> We dont want to come in and change the dynamic of a channel, nor change anything really, just have the ability to deal with a situation if it arises
<cjwatson> what do the +r and +R modes do? those are differences between what freenode staff have and what's being asked for for the ircc
<\sh> TBH..i never saw a situation inside #ubuntu-devel or #ubuntu-motu which was similar to other *ubuntu-* mass channels...i could be wrong...and other things freenode staff was very fast in reacting (regarding to irc spam)
<nalioth> we get requests in #ubuntu-ops and #freenode that "trolls are in #ubuntu-whatever" and would like the ability to respond, is all this is about.  we're not wanting to get involved in the daily operation of any groups channel(s)
<jono> can I recommend taking a temperature vote so the TB can move on to the other agenda items?
<Keybuk> jono: we don't have a yes/no to vote on
<Keybuk> except for the original question
<Keybuk> would the TB members be happy to vote on that at this point?
<sabdfl> i would suggest i'm +1 on giving ops to the irc council nick
<sabdfl> erk
<sabdfl> that was two different sentences
<jono> oh I thought it was a vote on whether the TB approved operator access for the IRCC
<Keybuk> [VOTE] give ops to the IRC Council nickname
<MootBot> Please vote on:  give ops to the IRC Council nickname.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<sabdfl> I'm definitely +1 on giving ops to the irc council nick
<sabdfl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Keybuk> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from Keybuk. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<mdz> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from mdz. 1 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<cjwatson> +0 - I'm still uncomfortable with the governance claims that have been made but will not oppose if we can review in a month
<MootBot> Abstention received from cjwatson. 1 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<Keybuk> how do you end a vote? :p
<cjwatson> #endvote
<sabdfl> we should review in a month and escalate to CC if we feel the permissions are not being well handled
<Keybuk> #endvote
<jono> sabdfl, agreed
<dholbach> [endvote] I think
<mdz> Keybuk: [ENDVOTE] I think
<Keybuk> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 1 against. 2 abstained. Total: 0
<cjwatson> huh, it used to be #endvote
<sabdfl> how do I tell mootbot about a casting vote? ;-)
<mdz> cjwatson: yes, it changed
<Keybuk> [VOTE] review the IRC ops situation in a month
<MootBot> Please vote on:  review the IRC ops situation in a month.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<sabdfl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Keybuk> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from mdz. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Keybuk> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 3
<Keybuk> ok, carried
<sabdfl> to be clear, that was "grant ops now, review in a month"?
<Keybuk> [AGREED] we shall review the situation with the IRC Council in one month's time and take it up with the CC if we are not happy
<MootBot> AGREED received:  we shall review the situation with the IRC Council in one month's time and take it up with the CC if we are not happy
<mdz> sabdfl: I think Keybuk was attempting to emulate a  multiple choice vote
<Keybuk> sabdfl: not that I could tell, there was no vote for granting ops now
 * Keybuk wonders how you do un-AGREED with mootbot
<sabdfl> frankly, wearing my CC hat, i think it's inappropriate for a group to carve itself out
<persia> Keybuk, no such feature, unfortunately.
<Keybuk> sabdfl: you are privy to the concerns I raised with the CC over the IRC Council
<Keybuk> and you, as well as other CC members, recommended a course of action that the IRC Council has thus far refused to follow
<Keybuk> so you can probably see why I'm against this ;)
<sabdfl> i do see that
<cjwatson> in the case of #ubuntu-devel I think it's more un-grandfathering that carving itself out, but sure, I'd prefer uniformity if we can get there
<sabdfl> but i think this just makes the problem worse
<cjwatson> s/that/than/ # sorry my typing sucks today
<Keybuk> for the TB record, this is over a blanket ban on discussion about "sexuality" in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
<Keybuk> (as well as religion, race, etc.)
<sabdfl> it's not the irc council you are critiquing, it's the CC
<sabdfl> Keybuk: in which you are personally involved
<mdz> folks, we are more than halfway through our time and have not wrapped the first agenda item yet
<sabdfl> I didn't realise the IRC council had not adapted their position, i will take care of that now
<Keybuk> my concern is the fact that the IRC Council are not allowing themselves to be governed by the CC
<sabdfl> however, i think it's inappropriate for you to translate that concern, about #ubuntu-offtopic, into a secession in #ubuntu-devel
<mdz> if there are outstanding concerns from the developer community regarding the IRC council, it seems reasonable to assess those and respond before we make a decision on #ubuntu-devel ops
<sabdfl> Keybuk: the CC will replace them if they don't sort that out
<sabdfl> now, i'd like to put it to the TB that we either add the IRC council to the ops in #ubuntu-devel, or escalate it to the CC, where I will argue that we should do just that
<sabdfl> deferring for a month, and doing nothing, isn't an option
<mdz> I thought the latter was exactly what we had agreed
<cjwatson> I thought that's what we just voted on, and got a tie which I assumed you were going to break with your casting vote
<Keybuk> we agreed that, no?
<cjwatson> the exact wording was "give ops to the IRC Council nickname"
<Keybuk> sorry, with all the back and forth, the log is a bit confusing
<Keybuk> but we tied on adding them immediately
<Keybuk> so then agreed to add them for a month and review
<Keybuk> taking it up with the CC after
<cjwatson> that matches my understanding
<sabdfl> ok, i misunderstood the fallout
<sabdfl> i didn't want to use a casting vote
<sabdfl> thought the latter vote was +1 for adding now, reviewing in a month and escalating to the CC if unsatisfactory then
<sabdfl> in which case i'm happy
<Keybuk> it was :D
<sabdfl> i asked to confirm that, and it got complicated
<sabdfl> i was confused by:
<cjwatson> regardless of the exact voting mechanics, I think that seems to be more or less what we're agreed on
<sabdfl> (04:30:43 PM) Keybuk: sabdfl: not that I could tell, there was no vote for granting ops now
<mdz> it was 0 on adding the irc council as ops, and +3 on reviewing the situation later (which I thought implied working to address Keybuk and cjwatson's concerns in the interim)
<Keybuk> sabdfl: ohh, that was on the casting vote bit
<Keybuk> ie. mootbot has no facility for it
<sabdfl> so thought that you were voting for NOT granting ops now, and just waiting to see if the IRC council went away :-)
<cody-somerville> lol
<sabdfl> ok, so we were all voting for different things. lucky we all agreed then ;-)
<Keybuk> the second vote was your suggestion
<ogra> heh
<jono> anyone need a coffee?
<jono> :)
 * ogra looks at the wallclock
<Keybuk> anyyyyway
<mdz> sounds like we need a re-vote on a clearer proposition
<Keybuk> next agenda item
<sabdfl> can we agree to add them now, and review in a month, escalating if they have not done a job we are satisfied with?
<pan1nx> what meeting am I in now? CC or Kernel-Team?
<cjwatson> sabdfl: yes
<sabdfl> Keybuk: can we vote on that if needed?
 * pan1nx confussed...
<Keybuk> sabdfl: I agree with that
<ogra> pan1nx, TB
<mdz> pan1nx: technical board
<jono> pan1nx, TB
<Keybuk> mdz: I think we all agreed with that while trying to figure out what we agreed
<Keybuk> let's be clear
<Keybuk> [VOTE] give the IRC Council ops now, review in one month, raising any concerns with the CC
<MootBot> Please vote on:  give the IRC Council ops now, review in one month, raising any concerns with the CC.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Keybuk> +1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
 * pan1nx slaps himself...total ahead of time...
<cjwatson> *headdesk*
<sabdfl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sabdfl. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<sabdfl> \o/ democracy is complicated
<mdz> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from mdz. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Keybuk> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 1 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
<Keybuk> sabdfl: condorcet TB voting?
<Keybuk> [AGREED] give the IRC Council ops now, review in one month, raising any concerns with the CC
<MootBot> AGREED received:  give the IRC Council ops now, review in one month, raising any concerns with the CC
<sabdfl> none of the above
<Keybuk> moving on
<Keybuk> QUICKLY!
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] Codecs in ffmpeg
<MootBot> New Topic:  Codecs in ffmpeg
<Keybuk> siretart: ?
<cjwatson> siretart said he couldn't be here
<cjwatson> there was a discussion in #ubuntu-devel earlier today
<Keybuk> should this be carried over to the next meeting or deferred until he re-proposes it?
<cjwatson> 13:36 <mdz> siretart`: I haven't spoken to him about it recently, but he is here and will be at the meeting
<cjwatson> 13:37 <mdz> siretart`: if there's nothing to discuss, we can skip it.  is it resolved?
<cjwatson> 13:37 <siretart`> mdz: IIRC, you wanted to check with sabdfl if what we discussed (not munging the ffmpeg source anymore) was OK and if yes, to proceed so in karmic
<cjwatson> 13:38 <siretart`> I'm unsure if we discussed enabling the encoders, but TBH, the more interesting ones are in the multiverse package anyways..
<cjwatson> 13:38 <mdz> siretart`: I was pretty sure we resolved that in a meeting, that munging the source was unnecessary
<cjwatson> 13:38 <siretart`> though h263 would certainly be interesting to users of ekiga
<cjwatson> I think it's only being carried over on the agenda because nobody has removed it, and the chair should probably remove it after this meeting until there is a new concrete question
<Keybuk> ok, sounds like it's resolved unless sabdfl has anything to add?
<sabdfl> nothing further from me
<mdz> nor me
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] The ubuntu-drivers team - document, restructure or retire? (MattZimmerman)
<MootBot> New Topic:  The ubuntu-drivers team - document, restructure or retire? (MattZimmerman)
<Keybuk> sabdfl: I sent you and Kiko a mail after the last TB meeting
<Keybuk> At the Technical Board meeting this week, the purpose of the Ubuntu
<Keybuk> Drivers team was raised.
<Keybuk>  - What privileges are granted by membership of this team?
<Keybuk>  - Can we split those privileges out and grant them to more specific
<Keybuk>    teams?
<Keybuk> I guess this agenda item consists of a chase for that information ;)
<mdz> recap from the previous meeting:
<mdz> == ubuntu-drivers ==
<mdz> The ubuntu-drivers team exists with various people and other teams
<mdz> attached to it, and itself is used as the driver of the Ubuntu
<mdz> distribution and the current development release.  However it's not
<mdz> clear what this is actually used for, and whether there are better
<mdz> alternatives to using this team.
<mdz> We agreed that Mark should investigate, Scott will begin the process by
<mdz> mailing him and the LP lead.
<Keybuk> sabdfl: ? :)
<sabdfl> reading
<sabdfl> the original intent was for drivers to be the folsk who make commitments regarding release goals and blockers
<sabdfl> i.e., the folks who separate the list of bugs into "things we are tracking closely" and "things that would be nice to have"
<sabdfl> it's clear that for something as complex as ubuntu, having one set of folks for both blueprints and bugs was a mistake
<sabdfl> that's the extent of my knowledge on the subject
<cjwatson> we've found in Ubuntu that this tends to precipitate itself out into those two separate functions, indeed
<cjwatson> high-level vs. nuts-and-bolts
<sabdfl> one thing i've noticed is that the team is more interested now in having "release goals" as a managed list, separate from everything else
<sabdfl> so there's value in the nomination-and-decision cycle, even if there are flaws in the implementation
<sabdfl> i'm open to proposals on how we could re-architect the permissions and processes
<cjwatson> one thing which has been resolved recently is that per-package uploaders are at least able to accept nominations, which takes a bit of the immediate pressure off
<mdz> sabdfl: how can we find out exactly what privileges the ubuntu-drivers team currently has?
<mdz> we need more information in order to be able to make a decision on this
<sabdfl> ideally, a proposal which starts out well for a tiny project and scales well to a very large one
<sabdfl> use the source, luke ;-)
<sabdfl> cjwatson: nominations for bugs, you mean?
<cjwatson> (but the per-package uploaders bit only affects stable releases; for the development release, accepting nominations is currently reserved only to drivers, not to developers too)
<cjwatson> sabdfl: yes
<sabdfl> are those bugs being used to track SRU fixes in queue?
<cjwatson> i.e. /ubuntu's driver is ~ubuntu-drivers, while /ubuntu/{dapper,hardy,intrepid,jaunty} have developers as an additional driver
<cjwatson> at least IIRC
<sabdfl> at least originally, you could have a core team on /ubuntu, and supplemental folks in additional teams on each of the releases
<cjwatson> yes, they are, and it's part of the SRU process to get the bugs targeted, which is why this has been an issue chiefly for the kernel team who have a very high throughput there
<cjwatson> yes, that's what we're doing
<mdz> sabdfl: the source, even if I had the gumption to search through the whole thing, is not sufficient
<mdz> sabdfl: I can't tell from the source where "ubuntu-drivers" has been granted privileges in the production instance of LP
<cjwatson> but it's still pretty unclear what's going on for karmic
<mdz> it's potentially more than just the driver slot on /ubuntu
<sabdfl> mdz: iirc it's programmatic - if you are in the set of drivers for a series (combination of project drivers and series drivers) you get The Powers
<sabdfl> and the powers are mainly, iirc, accepting nominations of blueprints and bugs as release-targets
<mdz> it would be nice if /~ubuntu-drivers showed where it was being used
<wgrant> cjwatson: There's nothing special about the development series - it seems anybody with upload rights to a package can approve release nominations throughout the distro.
<sabdfl> yes, LP should tell this more explicitly
<wgrant> cjwatson: Throughout all distroseries, that is.
<cjwatson> wgrant: there is, in that NewReleaseCycleProcess involves setting ~ubuntu-core-dev as a series driver for the series that just went stable
 * cody-somerville nods.
<mdz> could someone from LP give us a few paragraphs explaining how it works, and then we can review the way it's set up and make adjustments if necessary?
<cody-somerville> A distroseries can have a driver similar to project series can have a driver.
<cjwatson> I mean, yes there's nothing special about the development series per code but there is per the policy that we're currently applying (constructed largely by accretion)
<Keybuk> sabdfl: could you follow up with kiko to find the most appropraite LP person to give us an answer to mdz's question?
<cjwatson> we'd like to actually understand our policy so that we can fix it when it seems broken
<sabdfl> bjornt is that person
<wgrant> cjwatson: That's not used in most cases.
<cjwatson> hence this agenda item
<Keybuk> mdz: would you be happy to talk to bjornt directly?
<sabdfl> all the developers have been pulled off blueprints in order to accelerate codehosting and bugs development
<mdz> sabdfl: the drivers slot is only used for bugs?
<sabdfl> i think the permissions system in LP needs a rethink, but that will require kiko's leadership
<sabdfl> drivers used to be used for bugs and blueprints targeting
<mdz> Keybuk: ok, I will take the action to chase it
<Keybuk> great
<mdz> I have a call with kiko in 5 minutes anyway
<sabdfl> both bugs and blueprints had the same principle - you could nominate it to a release, and the drivers would say yay or nay
<Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz to talk to kiko/bjornt to investigate drivers powers
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to talk to kiko/bjornt to investigate drivers powers
<mdz> in practice, bug targeting has turned out NOT to be a centralized function
<Keybuk> we're running very low on time
<sabdfl> unless you were actually a driver, in which case you were deemed to ack your own nomination, which turned out to be a problem
<Keybuk> Corey is not here, and did not mail the TB list with what he wanted to discuss, so we can skip that item
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] Archive Reorg
<MootBot> New Topic:  Archive Reorg
<cjwatson> the specific items here should have been removed after the last meeting; they were covered last time. I do have one specific plea to make
<cjwatson> I sent a mail "Subject: Archive reorganisation: announcement of pending work" on 29 April, which nobody else from the TB has yet replied to
<cjwatson> we need to get an announcement out to developers about what we're doing, and it's getting increasingly urgent
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I had no comments ;)
<cjwatson> could each of the other TB members please take ten minutes to read and at least +1/-1 this mail?
<Keybuk> so +1
<cjwatson> Keybuk: thanks
<cjwatson> (dholbach has pinged twice after my original mail with no response)
<Keybuk> you technically called for comments, not replies <g>
<mdz> there are a lot of mails I haven't replied to since 29 April
<mdz> even my inbox is only up to about 17 april at the moment
<Keybuk> I propose we defer the Mono discussion until a later date, as I believe this room is booked
<cjwatson> consider this a request to move this one up the queue a bit, if you can ...
<Keybuk> alternatively we could begin it on the ML
<cjwatson> let's do that
<Keybuk> cjwatson: do you want to kick it off?
<cjwatson> suckered
<Keybuk> [ACTION] cjwatson to begin mono discussion on ML
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to begin mono discussion on ML
<Keybuk> [ACTION] mdz and sabdfl to review archive reorg mail sent on 29 April
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz and sabdfl to review archive reorg mail sent on 29 April
<Keybuk> AOB?
<mdz> cjwatson: is my response to that email blocking anyone's work?
<mdz> if so, I will prioritize it, otherwise it will come around as I work through my backlog
<cjwatson> mdz: yes, we can't meaningfully start interviewing developers whose permissions ought to change without telling them what's going on
<Keybuk> one AOB item from me: this will be my last TB meeting, my membership expires this week.  If there is desire for me to do so, I'd like to stand alongside other developers for renomination as part of an effort to increase the size of the group as we discussed last week - rather than just being added back in directly
<cjwatson> unless you simply want to tell me to go ahead of course
<mdz> cjwatson: ok, I'll have a look
<cjwatson> thanks
<sabdfl> cjwatson: +1 on that email
<cjwatson> sabdfl: thank you
<cjwatson> Keybuk: personally I'd like to see you stand for renomination
<sabdfl> me too
<cjwatson> (though I'd also have no objection to you being added straight back in, but that isn't my call :-) )
<cjwatson> I suggest that perhaps Keybuk's term should be extended until the election?
 * mdz wonders if anyone else is expiring soon
<mdz> mine is up in August
<cjwatson> mdz: well, it *is* kind of hot here
<mdz> cjwatson: har
<mdz> cjwatson: you're due in 2011
<persia> Based on recent experience from MOTU Council, it is *very* useful to extend memberships through to elections.
<mdz> sabdfl: your membership has no expiry at all, which seems odd
<sabdfl> on that note, i'm off to the design team
<sabdfl> ;-)
<Keybuk> thanks all
<Keybuk> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:04.
<sabdfl> thanks all
<Keybuk> and apologies to the server team ;)
<ttx> Keybuk: :)
<cjwatson> sorry, whose action is the decision on whether to extend Keybuk's membership?
<cjwatson> shall I take that to mail?
<ttx> Ok, who is here for the server team meeting ?
<ivoks> o/
<nealmcb> o/
<zul> o/
<ivoks> standard crew ;)
<MenZa> oh dear.
<alex_muntada> o/
<aruetten> o/
<sommer> o//
 * \sh is lurking ;)
<artir> \o/
<thewrath>  o/
<ttx> lots of new heads
<ivoks> lots of new people...
 * MenZa will be idling, although not *present*
<ttx> ok, let's get started, then
<ttx> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is ttx.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ttx> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ttx> last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090512
<ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<ttx> Hm, not so much action points from the rpevious meeting... Did anyone manage to find dendrobates at UDS and have him buy you a beer ?
<kirkland> ttx: ack
<kirkland> dendrobates: thanks!
<sommer> <- this guy :-)
<ttx> Lucky you :)
<ivoks> hehe
<ttx> which brings us to...
<ttx> [TOPIC] UDS local/remote participation feedback
<MootBot> New Topic:  UDS local/remote participation feedback
<ttx> Is there any feedback from local and remote participants to the Server track at UDS ?
<ivoks> RoAkSoAx: ?
<ttx> Did anyone here try to participate remotely ? How did it go ?
<RoAkSoAx> I did
<artir> The gobby server sucked
<artir> big time
<artir> 1/3 of the time it was down :(
<ttx> artir: yes, we mentioned that during the local feedback session. The end result is that the notes taken during the sessions are less useful than usual
<artir> ok
<jbianquetti> dual gobby servers (gobby.conference and gobby.ubuntu.com) was a pain
<RoAkSoAx> Listening to the meetings: They had a pretty good sound quality. Good use of #uds-server channel. Gobby was not the best thing though
<ivoks> right, couple of people reported great sound quality
<ttx> yes, that's positive, usually you couldn't really hear anything
<ttx> that said, it's a little scary, given the jokes and private talks near the mikes :)
<ttx> ok, anyone else has UDS feedback ? Were the sessions interesting / boring ?
<alex_muntada> i for one learnt a lot, it was my first uds
<ivoks> very interesting :)
<ivoks> except the cloud spam :)
<nealmcb> was there any audio or video recording?
<ttx> nealmcb: yes, several sessions were videotaped
<nealmcb> :)
<artir> icecast servers for audio
<ttx> nealmcb: videos need to be synced/uploaded, should be ready in a couple weeks
<artir> I want to see those vids :)
 * zul needs to learn not to get sick before a uds
<cody-somerville> zul, You're the one that infected me with this!
<ttx> OK, anything else on the UDS topic ?
<ttx> cody-somerville: hug culture has some drawbacks
<artir> lol hug culture
<cody-somerville> I made a point of not hugging anyone
<cody-somerville> Or wait, thats not true :(
<ttx> ok, moving on to...
<ttx> [TOPIC] Review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap
<ttx> Anyone has any progress to report ? Or new items they want added to that page ?
<ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<ttx> I saw that merging was under way for several packages
<ttx> RoAkSoAx: you need a main sponsor for your openvpn merge, right
<RoAkSoAx> ttx, i do
<ttx> ok, someone might hear you. I already reviewed the merge so it's more a second review + upload, for anyone interested
<ivoks> any main sponsors here?
<ttx> mathiaz reviewed the merge very early in the process, he will probably sponsor it when he'll be back to work
<ttx> I guess we'll have more on the Roadmap once we'll have digested UDS and started pumping out specs !
<ivoks> right
<ttx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<ttx> Anyone / Anything ?
<ivoks> it was nice seeing you all again at uds
<zul> ditto
<sommer> yes very good times :)
<ttx> For the newcomers to the server team meeting, could you describe your areas of interest ?
<ttx> alex_muntada, artir: ^
<alex_muntada> i'm a sysadmin in an university in barcelona, and i'm quite interested in config management right now
<snth> By new comers .. do you mean people that want to join .. or people that have mentors and all?
<ivoks> snth: all
<ttx> I mean, people I don't know that fallow this meeting :) So basically, anyone
<alex_muntada> but i'm also interested in cloud stuff since we have a couple of clusters and a new one is on the way
<ttx> alex_muntada: you were present at UDS last week, I gather
<alex_muntada> yes, i was one of the local team guys
<alex_muntada> i was wearing that perl mongers t-shirt on thursday ;-)
<ttx> cool :)
 * artir lurks everywhere :)
<snth> I work as a software developer and interested in config management .. and the little things that make the user experience much cooler. If this makes any sense.
<alex_muntada> i'd like to join the ubuntu-server team, since servers are mostly my everyday work
<ivoks> nice... new people
<ttx> alex_muntada: well, the team is very open :)
<snth> So, how do we join? what's the process?
<ttx> See at the end of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved
<ttx> Don't hesitate to talk to us to see where you prefer to fit in the big family picture
<jbianquetti> Hello, I'm newbie to ubuntu-server too.
<alex_muntada> i'm already on the list since uds and just requested membership
<ivoks> if you want to work on packaging, you should check out motu mentoring process
<ivoks> you could also help us triage bugs
<asanchez> jbianquetti and me both work for the Advanced Center for ICT Schools Management in Andalusia, Spain and we mantain all the servers of schools (that currently are running Debian). We are highly interested in all the things that Ubuntu server could offer to us.
<ttx> the GettingInvolved page I mentioned details all the kinds of contribution
<snth> ttx: I signed up for launchpad and found some bugs that I think I can help with. Should I just go ahead and make a patch and send it to the assignee?
<ivoks> asanchez: and we are interested in your experience and knowledge; so that toghether we can bring peace to the world...
<ivoks> er... wrong line
<jbianquetti> or what can we offer to Ubuntu...
<ttx> snth: yes, working on pathes would be great
<ttx> patches, even
<asanchez> We'll be very proud to collaborate with ubuntu-server
<ivoks> snth: add it to the bug
<ivoks> ok, idea
<snth> Oh OK .. If I have questions, do I ask the assignee or in #ubuntu-devel or here? or I should try everywhere :)?
<ttx> so please have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved and see where you can help. For the next meeting I'll add an item to the agenda so that we can discuss your interest more
<ivoks> we should have a defined path on bug triaging
<ttx> snth: I'd try #ubuntu-server first
<snth> ttx: Cool .. thanks man
<ttx> this brings us to...
<ttx> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<nealmcb> Sorry to miss uds.  But I had a great time at Google I/O (where they gave us free android phones :) and should soon get an account on their internal alpha of Google Wave.  I expect wave to be a big deal - combination of mail, wiki, chat, gobby and other forms of collaboration with a cool new open federation algorithm.   See e.g. http://wave.google.com/ and  http://mashable.com/2009/05/28/google-wave-guide/
<ttx> same time, same channel, next week ?
<ivoks> sure
<sommer> works for me :)
<nealmcb> but I don't expect wave to be ready for karmic.....
<alex_muntada> it's ok for me too
<ttx> I hope to see all those new members of the team again next week !
<ttx> mathiaz will have processed your applications to the ~ubuntu-server Launchpad team
<ttx> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:38.
<sommer> thanks ttx
<ttx> more ubuntu-server discussion on #ubuntu-server
<ttx> sommer: \o/
<snth> ttx: What applications?
<ttx> snth: applications for ubuntu-server team membership on Lunchpad
<ttx> as described on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/GettingInvolved#becomemember
<snth> Thanks
<ivoks> ttx rulez
<pochu> popey, Pricey, Seveas, stgraber: I don't think I'll be able to attend tonight's meeting, so just in case, I want you to know I completely support stani's application; he's doing (for a long time already) a great work as an upstream and also in Ubuntu and Debian by taking care of his packages. He also once told me if I ever went to the Netherlands he would host me :-) so a big +1 from me! go stani!
<stgraber> pochu: noted
<pochu> thanks :) feel free to quote that during his application :)
<popey> thanks pochu
<pochu> thanks to you guys
<pochu> popey: I didn't see you at UDS
<popey> pochu: i wasnt there :)
<bjf> rollcall!
 * apw fades in ...
<pochu> that explains it :)
 * cking is here
 * apw fades in ...
 * amitk is here
 * smb arrives
 * ogasawara waves
 * jjohansen1 here
 * ogra lurks
 * lieb looks about
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "ogasawara smb_tp apw to discuss regression lists"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "ogasawara smb_tp apw to discuss regression lists"
<apw> that discussion got side tracked onto bug process
<apw> and i think we'll be using some magic from bryce in here
<apw> but that does leave the disucssion on what our bug list should contain which we still need
<apw> and now need to re-discuss
<smb> Saw you where starting generically. Guess in generall this sounded reasonable
<ogasawara> I'm going to write up a wiki etc outlining the new process/policy
<apw> ogasawara, smb, we do still need to get together on the phone perhaps and discuss how the new stuff affects us
<smb> ogasawara, apw Should we get together on skype somewhen this week
<apw> ogasawara, soundslike a good starting point to me
<ogasawara> smb: works for me
<apw> smb, ack
<bjf> [ACTION] apw, smb, ogasawara to phone conference about regression lists
<MootBot> ACTION received:  apw, smb, ogasawara to phone conference about regression lists
<apw> ack
<bjf> [ACTION] remove this item from the next agenda
<MootBot> ACTION received:  remove this item from the next agenda
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "manjo to formulate mail on HW list"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "manjo to formulate mail on HW list"
<bjf> is manjo even here?
<apw> i believe that action was done, so drop it
<amitk> doesn't look like it
<cking> probably moving house
<smb> maybe moving his house
<jjohansen1> IIRC he took today as a swap day
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Items: "apw, update the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KermicKoala/TechnicalOverview page with our bits?"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Items: "apw, update the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KermicKoala/TechnicalOverview page with our bits?"
<smb> (or better the contents)
<apw> that one was completed
<apw> updated in time for alpha-1 announcement
<apw> you can drop that too
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels: Jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels: Jaunty
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels: Intrepid
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels: Intrepid
<apw> smb, ?
<smb> pulling text
<smb> Dapper:   idle
<smb> Hardy:    In preparation of proposed upload
<smb> Intrepid: linux-2.6.27-14.34 and lrm have been uploaded but not yet accepted.
<smb>           Those will be the last updates to Intrepid, except for OMG and CVE
<smb>           updates.
<smb> Jaunty:   Uploaded linux-2.6.28-13.44, lbm-2.6.28-13.14 and
<smb>           lrm-2.6.28-13.17. Those are intended to move to updates
<smb>           soon to allow the next proposed kernel which includes the
<smb>           stable updates.
<bjf> [TOPIC] Karmic Status: Alpha-2 June 11th
<MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Status: Alpha-2 June 11th
<apw> (we should consider having one item for 'Stable Kernels' for you to report gainst
<apw> we have just uploaded an 2.6.30-rc7 based kernel
<apw> we are working on vfs union-mount as an option for live cd's too
<bjf> [ACTION] Add single item for 'Stable Kernels' for smb to report against
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Add single item for 'Stable Kernels' for smb to report against
<apw> otherwise ticking along nicely expecting a real 2.6.30 next week
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Tree: status
<apw> as the kernel plan is officially 2.6.31 we will track the linus' head onto 2.6.31-rc1 as it comes out
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Tree: status
<apw> bjf ?  :)
 * ogra listens up
<apw> amitk, ?
<bjf> I'm off to visit folks next week with davidm
<apw> sounds promising
<ogra> is there a chance we'll see the babbage2 imx51 kernel for A2 ?
<bjf> I also have a bunch of new imx51 patches to incorporate into the karmic kernel tree
<bjf> ogra, no
<ogra> :(
<bjf> the babbage2 patches are to be available for A3
<amitk> ogra: what are the differences from babbage 1? are the mem addresses different?
<ogra> amitk, no idea, the babbage1 kernel doesnt boot on the 2 hardware is all i know
<bjf> amitk, you have any status?
<ogra> if we keep the babbage1 stuff in until A3 i can test on the B1 though
<apw> yay for compatibility
<amitk> bjf: just working on rewriteing some bits for upstream
<amitk> *rewriting, even
<bjf> [TOPIC] LPIA Tree: status
<MootBot> New Topic:  LPIA Tree: status
<sconklin> I'm continuing to review the patches we took as the delta to hardy distro
<sconklin> Have reviewed about 2/3 of the 150 or so patches that aren't just touching changelog, etc
<apw> i hope we are planning on only pulling them forward when they are clearly needed
<sconklin> The vast majority were backported from later kernels, so no actions required. I've only found a handful of ata wuirky things to be pushed upstream
<apw> excellent news
<smb> indeed
 * cking is pleased t hear that
<sconklin> apw: yes. So far the only thing to be pulled forward are the things not yet upstrem
 * apw smiles
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions / Bug day report
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions / Bug day report
<ogasawara> I emailed you guys a new bug list this week, no new regressions.
<ogasawara> stats from last bug day is at http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20090512.html
<smb> \o/
<ogasawara> I'd also like to hold the next bug day next Tuesday June 9 since we missed having one during AllHands/UDS.  I'll send email later this week.
<ogasawara> bjf: that's it
<bjf> TOPIC] Summary of Kernel decisions made at UDS
<bjf> [TOPIC] Summary of Kernel decisions made at UDS
<MootBot> New Topic:  Summary of Kernel decisions made at UDS
<bjf> that's me, give me a sec
<bjf> Karmic Kernel SRU discussion
<bjf>         The major change here is that we will not be picking up as many patches from the stable tree.
<bjf>         Mostly Stefan has been given authority to rule as he sees fit.
 * amitk bows to smb 
<smb> Actually we will no more picking up patches from the stable tree by default
<apw> we should likely review the policy docs in this area and ensure they match the updated reality
 * smb blushes
<bjf> "Remove Ubuntu Drivers" Evaluate Ubuntu Drivers
<bjf>         aufs                     - DISABLE/DROP
<bjf>         compcache                - UPSTREAM direct
<bjf>         dm-loop                  - DISABLE/DROP
<bjf>         dm-raid4-5               - STAGING? REFRESH?
<bjf>         drbd                     - looks to be going upstream
<bjf>         gfs                      - DISABLE
<bjf>         iscsitarget              - RESEARCH
<bjf>         lenovo-sl-laptop         - DISABLE
<bjf>         ndiswrapper              - REFRESH
<bjf>         rfkill/av5100            - STAGING pronto
<bjf>         rfkill/pbe5              - STAGING pronto
<smb> bjf, Can you make that review a task
<bjf>         tlsup                    - DISABLE/DROP
<bjf>         appleir.c                - REFRESH/RESEARCH removal
<bjf>         fsam7400.c               - STAGING pronto
<bjf>         lmpcm_usb.c              - REFRESH
<bjf>         thinkpad_ec.c,tp_smapi.c - Legal issues
<bjf>         misc/media/ov511         - * RESEARCH: is this covered by the video framwork already??
<bjf>         misc/media/snd-bt-sco.c  - DISABLE/DROP
<bjf>         misc/wireless/acx        - DISABLE/DROP
<bjf> [ACTION] Review the policy docs w.r.t. SRU and ensure they matche the updated reality
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Review the policy docs w.r.t. SRU and ensure they matche the updated reality
<bjf> KMS
<bjf>         Already available for Intel graphics. ATI and Nvidia open source drivers will support it.
<bjf>         Make a testing distro each release to help with calls for testing
<ogra> "compcache                - UPSTREAM direct" can you elaborate what that means ?
<apw> ogra, that driver is not staging material really and was recommended for direct merge
<ogra> ah
<bjf> Suspend / Resume testing
<bjf>         ACTIONS
<bjf>          * produce a proceedure for handling
<bjf>          * look at a targetted calls for testing
<bjf>          * current debuging page needs updates
<bjf>          * suspend/resume failure debug should report on suspend inhibit triggering
<bjf>          * get with the hardware labs for testing here
<bjf>          * detection of cirtain failures may be pertinant always
<bjf> Kernel Flavours
<bjf>         x86/x86_64
<bjf>          * 64 bit space pretty much unchanged (generic and server)
<bjf>          * Drop 32-bit server flavour
<bjf>          * Add 32-bit pae flavour
<bjf>         Ports
<bjf>          * There is desire to pull back ports kernels into the main kernel.
<bjf>          
<bjf>         ARM
<bjf>          * all ARM will move to armv6, imx51 will be the only flavour
<bjf>         ACTIONS
<bjf>          * look at pulling back the ports kernel, how big is the delta
<bjf>          * evaluate NUMA for desktop for 64 in general
<bjf>          * confirm EC2 can use our kernels
<bjf> Kernel Wifi Goodness
<bjf>         Discussion centered around better debugging of wifi issues. Possibly add a wifi wiki page similar to Bryce's X11 page.
 * ogra doesnt think that ARM assumption is right ... there is another non imx51 board we'll support 
<amitk> ogra: for now
<ogra> right
<bjf> Android
<bjf>         targetting Karmic with 2.6.29 android trees
<apw> so thats us testing an essentially virgin tree with karmic right?
<bjf> The session on "Kernel SSD" and Using new kernels with old userspace I have not dug through yet so there is no summary
<bjf> apw, I'm not exactly sure what that means
<apw> we are going to look at common block alignments for all devices
<apw> at the installer level
<cking> as a speed optimisation
<apw> bjf is that all the sessions ?
<bjf> apw, yup
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<apw> take that as a no
<bjf> guess not
<bjf> [TOPIC] Next Meeting Chair Selection
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next Meeting Chair Selection
<apw> i can take it
<bjf> I can't do next Tues. as I'll be traveling
<bjf> apw, it's yours
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:28.
<apw> bjf send me on the moot bot output
<bjf> thanks everyone
<apw> bjf, thanks
<bjf> apw, be just a sec
<smb> bjf, bye
<bjf> smb, bye
<Frippe> exit
<zaafouri> hi all
<Lathund> hi
<markvandenborre> hi
<bencrisford> Hey
<sakjur> Hi
<bcurtiswx> hi
<Frippe> hi
<forumsmatthew> hello
<stani> hi
<juanje> hi
<MaWaLe> hi filks
<MaWaLe> s/filks/folks
<czajkowski> aloha
<simosx> Î·Î¹
<simosx> hi ;-)
<zaafouri> salam =)
<phanatic> hello
<popey> o/
<forumsmatthew> Ø§ÙØ³ÙØ§Ù Ø¹ÙÙÙÙ
<popey> ooo get you
 * popey pokes Seveas 
<Phantomas> Î³ÎµÎ¹Î± ÏÎ±Ï
<Seveas> hey
<zaafouri> Ù Ø¹ÙÙÙÙ Ø§ÙØ³ÙØ§Ù
<forumsmatthew> :)
<Seveas> who's missing?
<Seveas> Pricey, prod!
<MaWaLe> Ù Ø¹ÙÙÙ Ø§ÙØ³ÙØ§Ù Ù Ø±Ø­ÙØ© Ø§ÙÙÙ Ù Ø¨Ø±ÙØ§ØªÙ
<markvandenborre> Seveas: me here
<Seveas> markvandenborre, it's been a long time :)
<markvandenborre> yeah
<Seveas> stgraber, prod
<zaafouri> ALAYA,
<forumsmatthew> I noticed we aren't listed on the fridge, and there is a meeting in an hour, so we'll have to keep it moving once we get going.
<zaafouri> salam =)
<ALAYA> salam zaafouri
<zaafouri> MaWaLe,  Ø§ÙØ³ÙØ§Ù
<MaWaLe> hi ALAYA
<MaWaLe> hi zaafouri
<MaWaLe> hi nizarus
<ALAYA> hanen: thx for the wiki eg
<popey> good to see you markvandenborre
<MaWaLe> hi hanen
<Seveas> please be quiet, there's a meeting in progress starting *now*
<hanen> hey MaWaLe
<Seveas> Frippe, you're first on the list, please introduce yourself to us
<hanen> MaWaLe seems u liked him ;)
<Seveas> other candidates: please prepare a 3-line introduction in a text editor ready to paste when it's your turn
 * stgraber waves
<popey> \o/
<Frippe> Well, i am 17 yearsm, soon 18. I study at IT-Gymnasiet SÃ¶dertÃ¶rn in Sweden. I have use linux for while. about 2-3 years. I have programming skils in C# and python and some more.
<hanen> ALAYA everyone is taking advantage of it, ill ask for percentage per usage ;)
<Seveas> hanen, be quiet.
<hanen> Seveas ok :'(
<forumsmatthew> Okay, I'll say it. Frippe, there isn't much on your wiki page for us to use to determine your qualifications for membership.
<Seveas> I'm going for a -1 due to no preparation. Wiki shows no info, launchpad no info of contributions
<forumsmatthew> Sorry. -1 here as well.
<markvandenborre> -1, same reasons
<Seveas> Frippe, please read http://blogs.ubuntu-nl.org/dennis/2009/05/13/how-to-become-an-ubuntu-member-the-easy-way/ -- it is vital that you prepare for these meetings
<markvandenborre> but please don't let that discourage you!
<popey> I see some translations which is great, but they're over a very short period, and kinda stop around the time you went for membership. I'd like to see a more sustained effort. -1
<forumsmatthew> We would welcome your return when you are better prepared!
<stgraber> -1 for the already stated reasons
<Frippe> Okey :)
<Seveas> Lathund, you're up next!
<Lathund> My name is Johan Eriksson and I live in Sweden, I'm 25 years old. I started using Linux in January 2007 and has since then been using Ubuntu. I'm currently a very active member at our swedish LoCo.
<Seveas> any live cheers for Lathund today?
<sakjur> Yeah
<sakjur> :D
<Seveas> sakjur, tell us something about Lathund
<phanatic> Lathund: you have mentioned on your wikipage that you're a moderator of the swedish ubuntu forums. do you have a link to your profile page there?
<sakjur> He've been an active administrator whom have taken care of the swedish Ubuntu LoCo forums well
<popey> I see a cheer from Lars who is also an Ubuntu member
<Seveas> and from yaeger
<popey> would have been useful if we had links to the home pages of the people who cheered
<Lathund> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/larslj theres Lars
<popey> yeah, I found him :)
<Seveas> Lathund, why xbmc and not elisa (Just curious, I'm trying out media centers)
<popey> its the others I was looking for
<sakjur> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/yeager Yeager
<Lathund> Seveas: The functions, like VDPAU, a lot of plugins like streaming TV etc. And I like the look of it. :)
<Seveas> k
<maco> Seveas, LOL you're looking for setup advice during membership vetting?
<Seveas> maco, it's a thinly disguised plot to see how people interact with competition :)
<forumsmatthew> Um, he's testing the applicant's knowledge...yeah, that's it...
<Seveas> Anyway i'm going for +1 based on testimonials from .se members and knowing that Lathund has been around for a while
<sakjur> At a quick glance at his latest post i can see that he takes well care of beginners, often
<forumsmatthew> I agree. +1
<markvandenborre> +1
<stgraber> +1 too
<phanatic> lot of testimonials, +1
<Seveas> popey, ?
<popey> Yes, I agree, a few good testimonials from ubuntu members means +1 from me too
<Seveas> cool
<Seveas> +6 it is, welcome aboard the Ubuntu boat
<forumsmatthew> congratulations
<Lathund> Thank you very much!
 * bencrisford congratulates Lathund
<bcurtiswx> congrats
<Lathund> Thx all! :)
<Seveas> czajkowski, you're up next. Haven't we seen you before?
<MaWaLe> congrats Lathund
<czajkowski> Seveas: coudknt make it to the other meeting]
<Mean-Machine> czajkowski, yay!
<Mean-Machine> rock on!
<Mean-Machine> \o/
<czajkowski> Aloha, I'm Laura Czajkowski, and I'm involved in the running and helping to organise events for the ubuntu-ie LoCo here in Dublin with the rest of the community. I've been involed with the LoCo since I moved to Dublin in January 2008, taking part in face to face meets up and giving a hand at the drop in centre.  I'd been involved in my computer society back home in the university of limerick with Skynet and been running events there for a whil
<popey> -1
<popey> KIDDING!
<popey> +1 from me.
<Mean-Machine> rofl
<czajkowski> popey: thansk for the heart attack there.
<maco> popey, you confused me!
<Seveas> popey, care to elaborate on that +1? (still reading wikipage...)
 * maco guesses it's something to do with him hanging out in #ubuntu-women and getting to know her through there
 * bencrisford giggles at maco's sugestion :P
<phanatic> outstanding wiki page imho, this is how it should look like. +1
<markvandenborre> +1
<popey> she does good work for her loco, is enthusiastic and always eager to help, and knows her limits when she is stuck
<forumsmatthew> I am very pleased by the testimonials
<forumsmatthew> +1
<Seveas> I'm impressed with the amount of work and the testimonials
<Seveas> +2
<czajkowski> thanks :) folks
<maco> czajkowski, dont need your cheering section after all?
<Mean-Machine> czajkowski, you go girl!
<Seveas> stgraber, ?
<stgraber> +1 based on the testimonials and popey's comment
<forumsmatthew> I wish every applicant made it this easy
<Seveas> forumsmatthew, indeed!
<bencrisford> lol, forumsmatthew feel free to treat me like that ;)
<Seveas> czajkowski, welcome aboard, please continue the good work!
<czajkowski> aww ye just made my evening
<forumsmatthew> congratulations
<markvandenborre> without a single drop of doubt
<markvandenborre> congratulations
<maco> congrats czajkowski!
 * bencrisford congratulates
<Mean-Machine> czajkowski 'our man in Barcelona' ;-]
<popey> czajkowski: party in moderation ;)
<bcurtiswx> congrats czajkowski!
<Mean-Machine> czajkowski, congrats!
<zaafouri> congrats czajkowski
<maco> Mean-Machine, our man in barcelona?
<MaWaLe> congrats czajkowski
<Seveas> bencrisford, you're next
<Mamarok> congrats czajkowski :)
<maco> she was one of the handful of us ladyfolk there
<Mean-Machine> wooooooo man ;-]
<Seveas> if we keep up the pace we can actually finish this meeting in time!
<bencrisford> Hey!  My name is Ben.  I have been using and contributing to ubuntu for a while now in *many* different areas, mainly bug triaging and marketing.  I feel that membership is the next, appropriate stage in my ubuntu adventure, as I feel it would be a nice recognition to what I have put into ubuntu.  My wiki page is mostly up to date, there is a couple of testimonials there too :D.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BenCrisford  ht
<bcurtiswx> czajkowski, putting the pressure on us other applicants :D
<maco> bencrisford, you cut off just after the url
<maco> er, the first url (looks like another http:// was coming)
<bencrisford> maco: Theres nothing after the url, dont worry ;)
<maco> oh ok
<bencrisford> its just wiki page links
<Seveas> bencrisford, it looks like you're doing work all over the place. Wouldn't it be better to focus a bit more on a specific area?
<bencrisford> Seveas: Perhaps, its just I like doing a bit of everything, but im planning to settle more in one area
<bencrisford> ill try and keep up my other contributions though
<Seveas> bencrisford, which area will that be?
<bencrisford> Well, im still pondering ;), perhaps bug triage, it is afterall where i started
<maco> aw nothing wrong in my mind with a Renaissance Man...
<markvandenborre> bencrisford: you seem to speak a little dutch, and even made a translation... have you worked with the dutch translation team?
<bencrisford> Not much im afraid
<bencrisford> but id certainly like to!
<forumsmatthew> https://translations.launchpad.net/~bencrisford
<bencrisford> I know it looks a bit lonely at the moment
<Seveas> I see you joined the forums and launchpad in february. That, combined with the jumping all over the place makes me a bit nervous
<popey> http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/files/ubuntu-poster.jpg like the poster :)
<bencrisford> Seveas: I am a jumpy person, but im certainly sticking with ubuntu
<bencrisford> popey: Thank you :)
<Seveas> I'd like to see you focus on one area and deliver a significant and sustained contribution in it
<bencrisford> Seveas: Ok...  Well, ill keep that in mind
<bencrisford> that is one of my better qualities
<Seveas> Not saying that your work is bad, but I find it hard to judge the quality if your work is spread out all over the place
<Seveas> so +0 from me
<popey> agreed
<forumsmatthew> I'm okay with participation in multiple areas, but I would like to see some sustained presence and participation in at least one area combined with evidence in the form of multiple testimonials from others involved in that area
<bencrisford> forumsmatthew: Understood :/ :)
<markvandenborre> same thing here, I can't really say + or -
<popey> yes, I'm inclined to agree. Your wiki page shows a very short history, and there's little evidence in launchpad. You're _clearly_ keen, and we'd like to encourage you to continue to contribute, but it's a +0 from me.
<forumsmatthew> I'm not going to say "no," but I do think a "not yet" is in order. I'll +0 for now and hope to see you again later.
<popey> yes, +0 in my mind is "come back in 3 months"
<bencrisford> ok, fair enough ;)
<Seveas> ok, see you then!
<Seveas> stani, you're up
<stani> I've been using Ubuntu since Hoary Hedgehog. I'm a bit active on various spots in the Ubuntu eco system, both downstream, upstream, launchpad and on the ubuntu forums. I'm active in the Dutch/Belgian loco (cd distribution, release parties, forums, ...) I also work within the Debian PAPT team in order that the packages get properly synced to Ubuntu.
<stani> Not much of my cheers could attend this meeting, but left a testimonial on my wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Stani.
<stgraber> I agree with what was said earlier, I like you involvment especially in edubuntu but would like to wait for a bit first to see how things goes.
<stgraber> (that was for bencrisford of course)
<bencrisford> stgraber: Yeah, ok thats cool :)
<stgraber> < pochu> popey, Pricey, Seveas, stgraber: I don't think I'll be able to attend tonight's meeting, so just in case, I want you to know I completely support stani's application; he's doing (for a long  time already) a great work as an upstream and also in Ubuntu and Debian by taking care of his packages. He also once told me if I ever went to the Netherlands he would host me :-) so a big +1
<stgraber>  frm me!i go stani!
<markvandenborre> do notice my +1 on his wiki page
<Seveas> I didn't get around to adding my +1 on his page
<Seveas> I've known him for a while and he does Good Things, as you can read there
<stgraber> I personaly met him at LGM2009 and discussed a bit on IRC, I like what he did and his relationship with Ubuntu, so a big +1 from me
<forumsmatthew> I"m only halfway through the page, but I've seen enough to give a +1 (and now I'm reading for pleasure)
<persia> While development is only a very small part of what stani does, I can't say enough about how much he does in that area.
<phanatic> a very impressive wiki page (both contributions and testimonials) again, +1
<markvandenborre> he presented some of his graph dev work at a release party here in Belgium... nice!
<Seveas> popey, ?
<JanC> Stani has been doing great things
<popey> +1
<Seveas> excellent!
<sakjur> Be right back
<Seveas> stani, welcome aboard!
<bcurtiswx> congrats stani!
<Seveas> ALAYA, you're next
<stani> Thank you all very much!
 * stani goes on working on phatch ;-)
<Seveas> sakjur, pm me when you're back please
<forumsmatthew> congratulations
<JanC> \o/ stani
<ALAYA> hello every body
<ALAYA> I'm Â« Zied ALAYA Â» from Tunisia.
<ALAYA> I'm a teacher: C and C++ programming courses and some time Linux courses.
<ALAYA> I really like Ubuntu and most students in the school know that.
<ALAYA> I m an active member in the Tunisian LoCo team.
<ALAYA> I partcipate in most discussion in our mailing list and in ubuntu-tn events when I have time.
<ALAYA> I'm a member in the Management Committee of our LoCo team (secretary group). My job is to preparate our irc meetings and propably the Management Committee election for this month.
<sakjur> back
<Seveas> the wiki is being a pain again today
<ALAYA> Seveas: I wanna to thx hanen for that
<ALAYA> she give me an example
<Seveas> ALAYA, well, if it's not loading I can't see it :)
<zaafouri> I'm ubuntu member & I support membership of ALAYA
<Seveas> zaafouri, tell us something about his contribution to the team
<zaafouri> he help us for many events
<zaafouri> ALAYA is an active member in our locoteam
<ALAYA> Seveas: i can give you the old one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Zied_ALAYA/old_main but it's not well finished
<nizarus> hello, im the tunisian loco team contact and i support ALAYA membership
<zaafouri> ALAYA contribute with us to extend ubuntu community in univesities too
<Seveas> ALAYA, that's not it, firefox just keeps telling me it's loading the page :S
<Seveas> can anyone pastebin a copy of the contents for me?
<nizarus> Seveas, i'm ok with the wiki page
<sakjur> certainly
<Seveas> ooh, wiki is behind apache mod_proxy :)
<Seveas> I just got a shiny error
<sakjur> http://pastebin.com/db8cf115
<forumsmatthew> There is a lot on the wiki page that shows solid and consistent involvement in the loco and with other events. The testimonials are good. I'm happy to +1.
<nizarus> Seveas, http://paste.ubuntu.com/186929/
<phanatic> based on the wikipage, the contributions and the cheers here, i'd give a +1
<forumsmatthew> Seveas, weird, the wiki is loading great for me
<Seveas> yeah, working for me again too now. Flaky crappy Ubuntu :-)
<ALAYA> Seveas: http://paste.ubuntu.com/186931/
<ALAYA> thx forumsmatthew
<ALAYA> thx phanatic
<Seveas> +1 from me
<ALAYA> thx Seveas
 * ALAYA is counting :)
<Seveas> I count 3
<Seveas> popey, markvandenborre, stgraber ?
<stgraber> +1 for loco involvement
<zaafouri> ALAYA, congrats "ÙØ¨Ø±ÙÙ" =)))
<markvandenborre> +1
<MaWaLe> congrats ALAYA
<bcurtiswx> congrats ALAYA!
<ALAYA> thx stgraber
<ALAYA> thx markvandenborre
<Seveas> one to go
<popey> Agreed, +1 :)
<nizarus> ALAYA, mabrouk
<forumsmatthew> marhaba wa mabrook!
<Seveas> :)
<ALAYA> thx every body thx a lot :)
<Seveas> congrats!
<Seveas> sakjur, you're next
<hanen> mabroul ALAYA :)
<ALAYA> thx popey zaafouri nizarus
<Seveas> hmm
<hanen> mabrouk*
<sakjur> Hello, my name's Emil Tullstedt and I'm 15 years old
<sakjur> I'm a student at Kunskapsskolan VÃ¤sterÃ¥s in Sweden and I've used Ubuntu since March 2007.
<sakjur> I'm a member of the Server Team and have a focus on deploying Ubuntu in production enviorments ( http://duds.asci.se/coconut ).
<sakjur> This week I'm working at http://www.truesec.com/en/ as a part of my education.
<ALAYA> thx hanen
<sakjur> (Congrats ALAYA)
<Seveas> As with Frippe I'm going for an immediate -1 due to lack of preparation. Wiki contains practically no info
 * ALAYA thx sakjur
<Seveas> please read http://blogs.ubuntu-nl.org/dennis/2009/05/13/how-to-become-an-ubuntu-member-the-easy-way/ -- it is vital that you prepare for these meetings
<forumsmatthew> I agree. Please come back when you are better prepared.
<forumsmatthew> -1
<sakjur> Seveas: I didn't have enough time to prepare so I'll prepare the wikipage and come back next month :D
<markvandenborre> perfect
<sakjur> I thought that was the way it was going to be
<popey> -1 also
<stgraber> not enough information on the wiki page, please complete it, get some testimonials and come back. -1
<markvandenborre> sakjur: if you thought so, it might have been a good idea to put it off to next month yourself too
<Seveas> MaWaLe, you're up next
<MaWaLe> I'm Wajih from tunisia
<sakjur> markvandenborre: well, i thought i was going to make it this week...
<sakjur> xD
<MaWaLe> I'm an IT manager in a governmental Organism and SENIOR consultant.
<MaWaLe> I am working hardly to promote and maintain Ubuntu in Tunisia.
<MaWaLe> Member of the Web&Tech sub-team which is in charge of developping, administrating the official site and forum of the community.
<MaWaLe> In this team I actively participate in configuring and maintaining the server and in the redaction of the content of the site and its implementation.
<MaWaLe> At the 4th meeting of the Management committee, I was elected as a coordinator of the Redaction Group. Since then i supervised all the LoCo Team events and also particpated in most of them with presentations, animations and intall-parties. In all the event, I promote Ubuntu and hold a conference about Ubuntu and his use.
<MaWaLe> The ENIS EVENT 9.01 leads to migrate over than 1000 PCs and Laptops to Ubuntu and to provide assistance to the technical staff of the Tunisian National School of Engineers.
<MaWaLe> I actively participate in the other activities of the tunisian team.
<MaWaLe> I actively participate to promote Ubuntu in the professional sector.
<MaWaLe> I try to be present as more as possible in ubuntu-tn irc channel and on the ML, to assist or help Tunisian users
<MaWaLe> I contribute in writing documents and some WiKi pages
<MaWaLe> I collaborate closely to the creation of the Drafting Team which is a sub-team of the redaction group. I also participate to draft the guidelines of the job description and the rules specifications of this sub-team.
<zaafouri> Me again, I am here to FULLY support the membership of MaWaLe
<Seveas> MaWaLe, please, a *short* intro
<nizarus> hello again, im the tunisian loco team contact and i support MaWaLe membership
<zaafouri> Mawale is leader in our Locoteam. He help many people and he answer to many request on ML and IRC. Mawale is an UBUNTERO and he's the example to follow.
<Seveas> MaWaLe, I heard that you went to the AsiaOceania board a few times before and were not approved but refered to the CC. Why did you decide to come to us instead?
<Mez> what's the current meeting?
<MaWaLe> i decide to come here after consulting with members of my community
<stgraber> Mez: EMEA membership board
<MaWaLe> because my membership takes too long in the other RB
<Mez> stgraber: ah, ok, it's not on the fridge! :D I was here ready for CC meeting :D
<MaWaLe> so i wait until some times and then i'm back for the first meeting
<nizarus> Seveas, we got an advice to be here ase we are close to the EMEA borad
<MaWaLe> i'm also marked on the Asian Board and i applied for the first one
<Seveas> well, if other boards have not accepted you as member but refered you to the CC, I'm very hesitant to give a +1
 * ALAYA is supporting MaWaLe, he is the most active member in our LoCo team events (more then 10 events): his the men
<Seveas> What was the reason your application was not accepted at the time?
<zaafouri> Seveas, MaWaLe is a best tunisian ubuntu member and really he help ubuntu to grow in Tunisia
<MaWaLe> Seveas : because we had a former member who is accusing some members of our community with unfounded allegations
<Seveas> zaafouri, ALAYA: plaease. We know your opinions but I am trying to get some questions answered
<MaWaLe> there was a meeting with popey where our loco contact explain the misunderstanding and we think that the problem is closed
<popey> Yes, the loco council got involved
<forumsmatthew> popey, comments?
<popey> There should be no further issues regarding that conflict
<popey> it was dealt with semi-amicably on both sides as I recall
<Seveas> popey, ok. That was the only thing holding me back. The wikipage looks good so +1 from me
<popey> I dont think it has a bearing on ALAYAs membership application which should stand on its own merit
<forumsmatthew> thanks, popey
<popey> np
<Seveas> popey, MaWaLe's application :)
<popey> duh
<forumsmatthew> After that, I'm +1 for the wiki and the testimonials
<popey> sorry,
<popey> yes, +1 from me also
<stgraber> +1
<phanatic> +1
<zaafouri> MaWaLe, congrats " alf ÙØ¨Ø±ÙÙ" =)))
<MaWaLe> thanks all
<nizarus> alf alf mabrouk MaWaLe
<bcurtiswx> congrats MaWaLe!
<ALAYA> congrats MaWaLe :)
<Seveas> markvandenborre, ?
<zaafouri> =)
<MaWaLe> hope to continue with my team :)
<markvandenborre> +1
<MaWaLe> and hope to be a MOTU someday :)
<popey> good luck MaWaLe, keep up the good work!
<Seveas> good, that's +6
<Seveas> welcome aboard
<forumsmatthew> mabrook
<zaafouri> MaWaLe, together forever
<stgraber> I think we have to leave the room for the CC
<nizarus> gooooooooooooood job MaWaLe
<hanen> alf marbouk MaWaLe wel 3al9ba lma aham sidi :)
<Seveas> let's move to #ubuntu-membership-board emea for the last 3 candidates
<Seveas> the CC will want this room in a minute
<Seveas>  #ubuntu-membership-board-emea that is
<markvandenborre> ok
<stgraber> I also have to leave, sorry for that but i stop working in 4 minutes.
<jono> hi all
<stgraber> (and have to pack all my stuff ;))
<Mez> stgraber: overtime ? :P
 * Mez waves @ jono
<jono> hey Mean-Machine
<jono> Mez,
<stgraber> Mez: not that easy (unless I want to walk back home ;))
<forumsmatthew> welcome, CC. We will give you the room now.
<forumsmatthew> :)
<Mez> stgraber: I know that feeling
<Mean-Machine> jono, hiya
<jono> hey elmo
<MaWaLe> popey : special thank for you for the clarification
<nhandler> Hi jono and elmo
<nhandler> Before the CC meeting starts, elmo, do you have any more info on people.ubuntu.com ?
 * mako waves
<Mez> nhandler: people.ubuntu.com = canonical employees only, IIRC
<elmo> nhandler: we're making slow progress; running into fun corner cases around renaming accounts in LP, quotas inside of chroots, libnss-db and multiple dbs etc.
<elmo> Mez: no, that's being fixed
<Mez> elmo: ah, cool...
 * Mez just uses people.debian.org - more exclusive :D
<elmo> nhandler: it's getting there.  much more slowly than I would hope, but it is progressing
<nhandler> Sounds lots of fun elmo
<jono> heya mako dholbach
<Mez> anyone have a link for the CC agenda?
<Technoviking> hi
<dholbach> Mez: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<dholbach> hi mdke, hi Technoviking
<Mez> dholbach: cheers :D
<mdke> hi everyone
<Technoviking> only got an half an hour, sorry about that
<jono> hi mdke
<mdke> hi dholbach, jono
 * nhandler waves to everyone
<Mez> hmm, agenda is asking for 23:00 UTC? isn't that when the meeting ends?
<popey> it's 21:00 UTC now
<popey> ish
<Mez> yeah, but look at the first 2 agenda items...
<Mez> BodhiZazen & Learning Team - June 2nd - 23:00 UTC thank you =)
<Vantrax> lol
<bodhi_zazen> oops :)
<elmo> well, I'm afraid I can't make it to a 23:00 meeting... :-P
<Mez> bodhi_zazen: ah, you're hear now ?
<Mez> here *
<bodhi_zazen> yes Mez
<sladen> bodhi_zazen: and is 21:00 UTC (now) going to be okay for you?
<bodhi_zazen> yes, thank you
<bodhi_zazen> sorry I appear to be UTC impaired
<Mez> bodhi_zazen: date --utc :D
<bodhi_zazen> I would like to introduce the Ubuntu Community Learning Project
<bodhi_zazen> =)
<mdke> I'm having some initial signs of internet issues, so fingers crossed
<jono> so is the meeting happening now?
<bodhi_zazen> when the CC is ready
<jono> mdke, pull the yoghurt put and string a little tighter, my friend :)
<nhandler> Looks like it jono
<Mez> mdke: I should switch off the DDoS then ?
<Mez> :P
<mdke> heh
<mdke> do we have sabdfl or mako?
<elmo> mako's here
<elmo> sabdfl's client here, but I don't think he is
<elmo> did anyone remind clan?
<jono> elmo, not sure
<mako> yep, i'm here
<jono> it's in his calendar
<dholbach> I talked to clan today
<elmo> his laptop's on his desk
<elmo> so I think we can assume he won't be here; but I'll SMS him anyway
<sladen> echo 'CC @ #ubuntu-meeting' | sms +44...388
<Mez> sladen: E_INVALID_NUMBER for me :D
<Mez> (but then I can't expect my script to work properly!)
<elmo> done - shall we carry on in the meantime?
 * cprofitt nods
<sladen> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:11. The chair is sladen.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<elmo> ok, bodhi_zazen , I guess you're up?
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you
<mdke> thanks elmo
<bodhi_zazen> We would like to introduce a new project to the community
<bodhi_zazen> The UCLP
<sladen> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Community Learning Project
<bodhi_zazen> Home page ; https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Community Learning Project
<cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/
<bodhi_zazen> The goals of the project are to provide and educational venue for people to teach and learn Ubuntu
<bodhi_zazen> Outlined here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/StrategyDocument
<cprofitt> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/StrategyDocument
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/StrategyDocument
<bodhi_zazen> We have established a server here : http://learn.ufbt.net/
<cprofitt> [LINK] http://learn.ufbt.net/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://learn.ufbt.net/
<bodhi_zazen> The idea seems to have taken off a bit faster then I had anticipated and we are collaborating with many of the other community groups / projects
<dholbach> bodhi_zazen: maybe you can explain a bit what the members of your team are doing at the moment and what kind of help you require
<bodhi_zazen> We are just starting so we are in the process of establishing the team structure
<dholbach> bodhi_zazen: what will your team members be working on soon?
<bodhi_zazen> working though administrative issues 9establishing and testing the server, licensing) etc
<Vantrax> If i can jump in bodhi?
<bodhi_zazen> pleas Vantrax
<Vantrax> Shortly after this we will be requesting feedback from the community on what they would like to see covered to augment the list of topics that have been building off the bottom of the wiki page linked earlier
<Vantrax> we are busy getting a propper theme together for our moodle installation in the ubuntu colors and style.
<dholbach> so once you got feedback you'll be writing the content for proper courses based on the feedback?
<Vantrax> correct
<bodhi_zazen> The team is fairly large and we are colaborating with other efforts, such as development
<Vantrax> we have already had feedback from many different teams including doc, bugsquad, motu, edubuntu etc
<cprofitt> dholbach, there are some courses which will not be based on feedback... the courses on how to use Moodle to deliver content for example.
<dholbach> does that also mean you'll improve documentation that we already have?
<bodhi_zazen> We have proposed content listed here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning
<Vantrax> they will also be helping to develop courses, supplying the material to build it with to start, then helping develop as time goes on
<bodhi_zazen> on the links , such as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/UbuntuDesktopTopics
<Vantrax> We plan to release new version for each LTS, with minor updates noted for changes in other releases
<bodhi_zazen> We will be using available content, such as wiki, forums posts, etc as much as possible
<dholbach> great
<bodhi_zazen> and we will contribute to content as well
<cprofitt> dholbach, the 'vision' that we have is to use and improve existing material as a 'brick and mortar' classroom would use a book. The beauty of the on-line world is that it will result in 'review' of existing material and hopefully improvements to it
<Vantrax> Canonical has allowed us to use the Desktop Training course materials as well
<bodhi_zazen> but out intent is also to present the content, not merely write it
<bodhi_zazen> So, for example, the wiki would be the textbook
<dholbach> what kind of help do you need?
<bodhi_zazen> we are providing a classroom and teachers
<dholbach> mdke: did the learning team get in touch with the doc team already?
<elmo> the CC-BY-NC-SA thing worries me a little bit; could someone explain the rationale behind that?
<mdke> yes
<cprofitt> The courses would organize the existing material, created a 'lesson plan' (rubric) for students to follow so that their learning is 'guided'
<Vantrax> at the moment a mailing list at list.ubuntu.com would be nice:P
<bodhi_zazen> We could use some help with liscencing
<cprofitt> elmo, we are intending CC-BY-SA
<cprofitt> not NC
<Vantrax> elmo most of the materials, including canonical ones are release under that license
<bodhi_zazen> and in time I was hoping we could use learn.ubuntu.com
<mdke> I had quite a long chat with bodhi_zazen in #ubuntu-doc a few weeks back, and raised some concerns about how to handle potential overlap with the documentation team
<cprofitt> but we are still working through the details of that with some legal folks
<Vantrax> there is some items that will be relesed under that license regardless because of that issue
<cprofitt> +1 Vantrax
<elmo> cprofitt: ok, I thought the wiki page said NC
<cprofitt> elmo, we are still working through that... our 'desire' is to drop the NC
<elmo> cprofitt: ok
<Vantrax> It does say both elmo, because we have to use both as some source materials are NC, such as the Desktop Training course
<elmo> +, great
<mdke> to be honest, I have been quite concerned about that since the idea was announced. I think that on the basis of the wish to reuse and collaborate in terms of content with other teams, they have the right approach
<bodhi_zazen> We would like to coordinate efforts within the community, so establising contacts with interested parties in the Ubuntu community would also help
<pleia2> mdke: we've been working with teams (we have a rep from the doc team) so we don't duplicate effort
<sladen> cprofitt: it would be highly-preference, -NC is vague, causes issues and effectively makes things non-free
<mdke> pleia2: right, that's what I mean
<Vantrax> mdke DougieRichardson has offered to help with working with the doc team
<cprofitt> sladen, agreed
<mdke> Vantrax: that's great
<mdke> I'm happy with the way the project is shaping up on the basis of my conversations with bodhi_zazen and what has been said this evening
<cprofitt> mdke, the real difference is we are not looking to 'create' documentation in places it exists. We want to make courses that guide people through the process of learning.
<Vantrax> So, as you may or may not know, we have already had approval from Canonical to use  the ubuntu name as well as learn.ubuntu.com
<bodhi_zazen> thank you mdke =)
<elmo> Vantrax: hmm
<elmo> Vantrax: I'd like to talk to someone about that, without my CC hat on
<mdke> I think focus on collaboration and avoiding overlap should be a key future goal, and something to keep an eye on
<Mez> elmo: which hat will you be wearing? your pimp hat?
<elmo> Vantrax: (not in 'not doing it' sense, more in  a 'logistics of how we do it' sense)
<cprofitt> mdke, if there are 'holes' in the documentation we would want to work with the doc team to create it... if there are inaccuracies we would want to work with the doc team to correct them... but I the vision is to have courses that guide users on where all the knowledge is.
<bodhi_zazen> elmo: I could use help with logistics
<Vantrax> elmo, we have been working with dinda so far
<mdke> the licensing obviously raises big issues, as the documentation is licensed under cc-by-sa, and the training project material is -nc, so it will be difficult for the project to use those materials in the same place
<sladen> elmo: is the non-CC hat concern, about naming, or server issues, or domain names, or something else?
<cprofitt> mdke, the license we want to use on courses is cc-by-sa - but if material references included the -nc we need to note that
<Vantrax> We have had a couple meetings with Billy and Belinda to sort things out early on
<elmo> sladen: hosting issues
<cprofitt> there should not be any conflict of license
<Vantrax> elmo, we have our own dedicated server
<Vantrax> we just need a subdomain redirection
<bodhi_zazen> elmo: I have provided a server + hosting
<Mez> mdke: isn't BY-SA non-free ?
<bodhi_zazen> I have an IP
<elmo> Mez: no
<mdke> cprofitt: you can't use material with incompatible licenses in a single document, but no doubt you can find a way around it
<mako> Mez: no
<bodhi_zazen> need to direct learn.ubuntu.com to my server
<Vantrax> Mex BY-SA is the free license
<bodhi_zazen> and discuss if we wish to make it ssl (https) as is the wiki
<cprofitt> mdke we would not use the -NC material in a single document...
<mako> Vantrax: BY-SA, BY, and now CC0
<pleia2> luckily we've had greg-g around to help us out with licensing, and it will continue to be something we pay close attention to
<Mez> elmo/mdke: http://wiki.debian.org/DFSGLicenses#CreativeCommonsAttributionLicense.28CC-by.29.2Cv1.0
<mdke> the team wiki still remains unlicensed
 * greg-g waves
<cprofitt> again... the courses reference the material but do not use it.
<mdke> Mez: this isn't Debian
<greg-g> Mez: see http://freedomdefined.org/Licenses
<mdke> so we will probably have to address the licensing of the team wiki at some stage :) yay!
<cprofitt> yes, greg-g is helping us through all that.
<Vantrax> We have been having headaches over the licencing already
<elmo> so, Mark is having some "key issues"
<elmo> he should be with us shortly
<Mez> mdke: I tought they were the definition of "free" though
<elmo> Mez: it's free for Ubuntu
<mdke> nope
<greg-g> Mez: also, the 3.0 version of the CC licenses fix those concerns, see http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Version_3
<elmo> Mez: we differ from Debian on some points about what constitutes 'free', especially around documentation, images, firmware and the like
<mdke> I don't think we need to question cc-by-sa, most Ubuntu documentation and artwork uses it
<elmo> what mdke said
<cprofitt> mdke, think of the courses in the same manner a high school course is taught... the book is copyright material, but the course need not be.
<mako> greg-g: i was just going to paste that :)
<greg-g> mako: :)
<cprofitt> +1 greg-g
<elmo> vantrax/bodhi: I'll take up the learn.u.c thing out of band, it's really not a CC concern, or a blocker
<Technoviking> Sorry I have to go folk, have a "real life" meeting I could not schedule. I think there is still a quoram.
<dholbach> Vantrax, cprofitt, bodhi_zazen: what kind of help do you need from the CC?
<bodhi_zazen> OK elmo
<elmo> Technoviking: thanks
<dholbach> Technoviking: thanks for attending
<mdke> cprofitt: well, you need to make sure you have permission to reuse material, that's all it is
<bodhi_zazen> dholbach: at the moment we can not think of any direct assistance we need
<cprofitt> dholbach, we are looking for approval from the community to continue... to make sure that we have your blessing...
<mdke> and it's a good excuse to resolve the issue of the licensing of wiki.ubuntu.com
<Vantrax> at the moment its just about letting you know what we are up to, and getting some sort of approval
 * cprofitt smiles
<mdke> which remains unresolved
<bodhi_zazen> we merely wanted to bring the project to your attention
<Technoviking> I will review the logs and give any feedback if needed:)
<cprofitt> we are kind of asking to marry your daughter by using the Ubuntu name...
<bodhi_zazen> and give you all some contact information
<pleia2> and we need a mailing ilst :)
<Vantrax> also we would like a list at lists.ubuntu.com too
<mdke> have you applied for one?
<sladen> [ACTION] elmo to take up learn.ubuntu.com thing out of band
<Vantrax> goest to rt@ubuntu right?
<MootBot> ACTION received:  elmo to take up learn.ubuntu.com thing out of band
<elmo> wow, that bot thing is nosiy
<elmo> Vantrax: right
<Mez>  elmo /mode #ubuntu-meeting +q MootBot
<Mez> :P
<bodhi_zazen> They should call it interruptbot :)
<Vantrax> sent an email asking about it on the 30th of April
<Vantrax> to rt, cced to belinda lopez
<mdke> I think strictly speaking it's mailman@lists.ubuntu.com
<Vantrax> i sent mail to there before that
<mdke> that way it goes to jorge for approval, is that correct elmo?
<Vantrax> then asked belinda, and she said try rt
<elmo> Vantrax: I'll dig up the email and find out where it is the pipeline
<Vantrax> thank you elmo
<mdke> ok, great
<jono> sorry, network troubles here
<mdke> thanks guys for turning up here with the project, I'm very pleased to see that happening and I think more teams should do it
<Mez> jono: screen + irssi :D
<mdke> you definitely did the right thing
<sladen> must say, it has a very impressive list of recognisable names involved, so I hope it successfully goes places
<Vantrax> We are hoping more teams will, and we hope that this setup will become a platform for other teams to use to run training
<cprofitt> mdke, you are most welcome... if we want it to grow we must educate it
<bodhi_zazen> mdke: Thank you for the wiki =)
<jono> Mez, :)
<bodhi_zazen> we certainly could not educate without it
<mdke> well, you can thank the whole community for that :) and elmo, ultimately, as with all things :D
<sladen> the secret is not to educate people, but inspire them to investigate and experiment for themselves...
<mdke> ok, shall we move on?
<sladen> [TOPIC] The Ubuntu Forums Beginner's Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  The Ubuntu Forums Beginner's Team
<bodhi_zazen> On a similar note ...
<bodhi_zazen> The NUN has disbanded
<bodhi_zazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu#New%20User%20Network
<sladen> NUN == New Users Network
<dholbach> do we have anybody from the new users network here?
<mdke> Mez was involved with it, iirc
<Mez> yep, that's why I'm here.
<bodhi_zazen> The Ubuntu Fourms Beginners Team would like to take on their role with new users =)
<dholbach> Mez: what's the state of things there?
<Mez> myself and nalioth formed the NUN. As far as I'm aware, the project is now defunct. Nothing's happened with it for a long time - apart from some arguing over -classroom
<bodhi_zazen> Or at least it is my understanding the NUN is no longer active ?
<pleia2> classroom is now working pretty closely with UFBT (rather than NUN)
<Mez> pleia2: it changed hands a few times
<pleia2> Mez: yep, classroom is in my court these days
<dholbach> JanC: still something going on in the NuN project?
 * dholbach just checked https://launchpad.net/~newusernetwork/+members to see who's still in the team
<Mez> I'm personally happy for the NUN to be disbanded, though I would suggest that the Forums Beginner team maybe make some move towards something outside of the forums
<bodhi_zazen> So, if the NUN is no longer functioning the UFBT would like to take it's place here : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
<Vantrax> Mez the learing project just reviewed came out of the UFBT
<Vantrax> They also have Launchpad and IRC teams
<Mez> dholbach: JanC is just a member IIRC.
<elmo> bodhi_zazen: do you have a link to UFBT?
<bodhi_zazen> Mez: The UFBT is fairly active outsdie the fourms
<Mez> Vantrax: yes, but NuN was also trying to focus on stuff like an IRC presence, etc etc
<nhandler> [LINK] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam
<bodhi_zazen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Team/FocusGroups/Launchpad
<dholbach> Mez: you said "move outside of the forums" - how do you mean that?
<mdke> Vantrax: he's not saying that the UFBT isn't doing awesome work; it clearly is. The point is that if a project is spawning some community wide projects, then maybe it should think about a rebrand as a community wide project itself.
<nhandler> bodhi_zazen: That link is outdated
<mdke> just to make it clear that the projects are open to those outside of the forums as well as inside
<Mez> dholbach: I'm not aware of the UFBT's presence, but limiting a "new user" support group to one medium is fruitless, IMHO
<nhandler> mdke: We have been discussing the possibility of renaming the team for a while now
<bodhi_zazen> The UFBT has members who contribute to wiki, MOTU, irc, to name a few
<sabdfl1> hello all. that was an adventure, sorry for being late
<bodhi_zazen> and we have been working with classroom :)
 * nhandler waves to sabdfl1
<Vantrax> There was a push to rename recently, we might revisit that again
<mdke> I've also come across the UFBT doing good work in the docteam
<pleia2> yeah, they've done some great classroom sessions over the past few months :)
<JanC> FWIW: I try to be helpful to new users, but don't want to pull a complete project about that...
<mdke> so I think there is a clear influence outside the forums, along with the Learning project and the Classroom work
<Mez> bodhi_zazen: as I said, I'm not aware of what it does, but the "F" makes me think of it as forums ... a name change maybe?
<mdke> so maybe it's time to talk about a rebrand :)
<mdke> evening sabdfl1
<Mez> mdke: I agree, my research purely consisted of reading the name :D
<bodhi_zazen> Mez: we have discussed a name change before
 * Vantrax waves to the big cheese
<Joeb454> Mez: I think ufbt keeps the roots of the team though
<bodhi_zazen> but that involved changing wiki pages, mailing lists, LP pages, etc
<Joeb454> ubt doesn't roll off the tongue as well ;)
<bodhi_zazen> and well the team likes the forums :)
<dholbach> do you think it'd make sense to make a list of all the documentation that needs changing, get in touch with former members of the NUN and see if some of them would like to help out outside of the UBFT?
<dholbach> maybe even ask on ubuntu-users@?
<Mez> dholbach: I'm quite happy with that ... and if someone wants to delete the -nun mailing list :d it'll make my inbox nicer
<dholbach> then see what the feedback is like and then change the documentation / name?
<ibuclaw> Joeb454, or perhaps just a generic sounding "BT" ?
<mdke> I think the ubuntu beginners team would sound great
<bodhi_zazen> Well we should change to ET
<Joeb454> ibuclaw: I'm sure as most seem to know, BT is a british ISP
<Vantrax> me too
<Mez> mdke +1
<bodhi_zazen> Education Team
<mdke> i understand it' sometimes difficult to make changes to one's roots like that
<sladen> [IDED] Forums' New User Network disbanded;  delete -nun mailing list
<dholbach> it'd just be nice to pull all the threads together
<sladen> [IDEA] Forums' New User Network disbanded;  delete -nun mailing list
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Forums' New User Network disbanded;  delete -nun mailing list
<Mez> Joeb454: not just an ISP
<mdke> so I'd just suggest maybe that the team discusses it in the future, nothing decided now
<Mez> +1 for the idea :D
<Joeb454> Mez: well yeah, I know :P
<Mez> +1 for less administrivia mails :D
<mdke> anyway, +1 for the agenda item, and for dholbach' suggestion about how to effect it
<bodhi_zazen> I will bring the question of a name change to the UFBT again ;)
<Vantrax> We have a meeting after this one
<sabdfl> great to see such positive work around new users; the onramp to Ubuntu just got smoother and broader
<mdke> are you guys happy to follow dholbach' suggested process?
<bodhi_zazen> any suggestions on a name change from the CC ?
<Mez> [ACTION] Discuss UBFT rename to UBT
<nhandler> bodhi_zazen: mdke said he liked Ubuntu Beginners Team
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: mine is Ubuntu Beginners Team
<Mez> ah, not chair :D
<dholbach> I'd strongly encourage to reach out and define the scope before naming, renaming and replacing
<mdke> +1
<JanC> BTW: I'm happy to moderate any mailing list related to new users if other people don't like to do it
<sladen> [ACTION] Discuss UBFT rename to UBT
<bodhi_zazen> +1 dholbach
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Discuss UBFT rename to UBT
<bodhi_zazen> that is why I suggest ET
<bodhi_zazen> Education Team ?
<Joeb454> at the end of the day, I'm not fussed. However UBT encompasses the fact that the team is no longer forums only
<nhandler> JanC: The BT mailing list is currently on LP and does not really get a lot of mail to moderate. But thanks for the offer
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: the renaming issue is separate to the question of whether the NUN can be replaced
<Joeb454> though I still like UFBT, perhaps that's just familiarity though...
<bodhi_zazen> yes
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: if you can follow dholbach's suggestion for the latter, that would be a greaet start
<bodhi_zazen> indeed
<Mez> JanC: wanna take over -backports ML admin ? :P
<sladen> Ubuntu Wecome Team?
<Vantrax> education is already largely wrapped up by edubuntu, hence why its the ubuntu community learning project
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: then you can think about the name of your team in due course, without rushing it
<sladen> *Welcome*
<bodhi_zazen> Well, the team is not just about beginners either :)
 * cprofitt waves to sabdfl1 
<Vantrax> not wtih st33meds python training
<JanC> Mez: depends on what that means...
<ibuclaw> Vantrax++
<bodhi_zazen> OK, well the UFBT, as we now call ourselves, would like to take the place of the NUN ;)
<Mez> JanC: about 4000 in moderation ?
<mdke> ok, so the real action point for you is to follow up dholbach' suggestion as follows:
<ibuclaw> Vantrax, also, I like to see ourselves as a team who helps push people who want to contribute to Ubuntu in the right direction too.
<mdke> 22:42:44 < dholbach> do you think it'd make sense to make a list of all the documentation that needs changing, get in touch with former members of the NUN and see if  some of them would like to help out outside of the UBFT?
<bodhi_zazen> I will discuss name change with forums staff and the UFBT , see what we come up with
<mdke> is that ok in terms of resolving the agenda item?
 * Joeb454 is interested on what sabdfl thinks of this too, as the team has the potential of becoming very large
<Mez> mdke: sounds good to me :D
<JanC> Mez: if it's spam, that's no problem, if I have to do technical approvals, that's omething entirely else ;)
<Mez> Joeb454: I think sabdfl probably thinks "Error: Connection reset by peer"
<sabdfl> Joeb454: large is OK, if it's well run, and this group seems energetic and directed
<Joeb454> Mez: I know, and here's me thinking that be* are a good ISP
<bodhi_zazen> mdke: that works for me, is there a way of getting a lilsting of the documentation that need updating easily ?
<sabdfl> Mez: first i left my keys at the office, then i hit "restart now" after an upgrade
 * cprofitt smiles at sabdfl we are well run... bodhi_zazen deserves credit for that
<sabdfl> sigh, not my night
<Vantrax> it happens sabdfl
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: not that I'm aware of, except for wiki and google searching
<Mez> Joeb454: I did poke one of be's sysadmins to "set traffic shaping to uber" for sabdfl's connection :D
<bodhi_zazen> OK
<Joeb454> sabdfl: bodhi_zazen is a good leader, and the team is very dedicated, not to mention energetic
<bodhi_zazen> we can discuss the technical details later ?
<sabdfl> it comes in 3's, so there's another one out there waiting ;-)
<mdke> bodhi_zazen: yes
<bodhi_zazen> kk :)
 * bodhi_zazen waves at sabdfl 
<sladen> sabdfl: you need to get the in-wall star trek computer system upgraded with iris recognition
<mdke> good job
<Vantrax> if you do I demand pictures:P
<bodhi_zazen> you are too kind in your complements Joeb454 and cprofitt ;)
<mdke> I won't be able to hang around much longer, shall we try the next agenda item?
<mako> ditto
<Joeb454> bodhi_zazen: I tried lying and saying you were rubbish, but as it was sabdfl I thought I'd better be truthful :)
<bodhi_zazen> thank you mdke =)
<bodhi_zazen> LOL Joeb454
<Mez> sabdfl: I suggest you "accidentally" smash a vase :D get #3 out of the way :D
<sladen> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One.  Brand issues - followup.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One.  Brand issues - followup.
<ibuclaw> Joeb454, truthful is a very vague word in Leicester ...
<Vantrax> oh boy >.<
<sladen> mako: did have an email reply;  did you get some notes/summry together?
<mdke> let's try and keep the discussion limited to agenda items guys, we don't have much time
<Joeb454> ibuclaw: I like to keep my presence low ;)
<sabdfl> mako: did you gather your thoughts on this?
<sabdfl> i saw sladen's commentary mdke moved to the /talk page
<jono> btw folks, sketchy net here, I might drop out
<Mez> jono: screen + irssi :D :P
<jono> Mez, yeah yeah :)
<ibuclaw> Mez, and that will help how ? ;)
<Mez> ibuclaw: he'll be able to read backlog
<ibuclaw> ah, forgot about that.
<sladen> interestingly the bug report has been quiet in the week since, which could indicate that the issue has died down---or that people are content that it is being looked at
<mdke> a bit of both, I suspect
<mako> sabdfl: so i've not written anything up. i think my general position is a little half baked
<sabdfl> i have meant to reply to mdke's response, and one other set of questions that i thought was illuminating (forget the nick of the commenter)
<mako> in general, i think i agree completely with mdke's objection as written in the bug
<sladen> mako: what would it be if it was fully cooked?
<mako> but with a different justification that i think he is working from
<mako> which stems from empirical social science work that i've been doing on large free software projects
<Mez> mako: link to mdke's objections?
<mako> Mez: they are on the bug
<sabdfl> since we last discussed this, i've been thinking more about whether we can articulate a set of guidelines on tastefulness / appropriateness
 * Mez read "blog"
<sladen> sabdfl: I found  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubunet/+bug/375345/comments/71  illuminating, is that the same set of questions that you had in mind?
<sabdfl> franklin street won't work, i'm afraid, since i don't have confidence we could make a commercial success of it
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 375345 in ubunet ""Ubuntu One" name creates confusion" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<Mez> [LINK] http://launchpad.net/bugs/375345
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/bugs/375345
<sabdfl> and as crass as it may sound, that's important to the sustainability of ubuntu
<mako> so my concerns are, one level, orthogonal to issues of freedom (although obviously, i care a lot about this)
<mdke> sabdfl: I completely agree that Canonical's success is important to the sustainability of Ubuntu, I think everyone sensible realises that.
<nixternal> sabdfl: I don't think that sounds crass at all, and actually I think that is a very valid point, probably something many could really stand to know...
<cprofitt> not to interject, but Microsoft called their disk space 'SkyDrive'
<mako> i'm increasingly confident saying that simples of centralized ownership over a project result in an increased concentration of contributions from the firm
<sladen> sabdfl: is this related to the sync app, or the app-store/online brand in general?
<sabdfl> i don't agree with the sentiment that this is a major issue - there are already so many cases of linkage between free software on the desktop / server and semi/completely proprietary cloud services, that i don't accept that canonical should be held to a different standard
<mako> basically, if a project seems owned by a firm, volunteers ar eless likely to contribute (i think this makes intuitive sense)
<cprofitt> and hardly anyone knows about it... so picking a name is important... and 'brand' ID is important as well.
<mako> things like trademarks, control over trademarks, copyright assignments, and more all might be important indicators
<sabdfl> on the trademark issue, i also have firmed up in resolve that "ubuntu" can't be redefined to mean "free only" (we started out with restricted too, remember); we want it to stand for the best possible sustainable experience that can be delivered on a free platform
<mako> as i said last time, i think the fact that canonical is not called ubuntu ltd remains the smartest move in this regard to that canonical made, and i think that protecting this division is important to the health of our volunteer community
<sabdfl> we also want it to be a "force for good", which means pushing the envelope
<sabdfl> but it would be irresponsible to push it beyond where we have confidence it can survive
<sladen> sabdfl: 'restricted' exists to enable areas where a Free equivalent does not (yet) exist.
<sabdfl> mako: i agree, but it also makes it easier for folks to oversimplify the case, because it's easier to forget the symbiosis
<sladen> sabdfl: which is a Good Thing(tm) because it enables more people to use Ubuntu
<sabdfl> sladen: define enable ;-)
<mdke> sabdfl: the point that Ubuntu isn't wholly free just doesn't fly, for me
<sladen> sabdfl: ...this is the choice that the user _chooses_ to accept
<mdke> in the past, when ubuntu has decided to go with non-free things, it's always been a carefully discussed issue, that was justified according to Ubuntu's other aims and principal goals
<mako> sabdfl: so i'm talking about perceptions here
<sabdfl> anyhow, i was wanting to see if there were more useful boundaries or guidelines that would help us shape the relationship between the desktop and U1
<sladen> sabdfl: more crashes, and there's nothing that can be done about it, because it's in restrictied
<mdke> UbuntuOne hasn't been like that at all, it's a project that is not produced by or open to the Ubuntu community
<mdke> and I can't really see how Canonical couldn't make money out of it with a name that doesn't blur the distinction between it, and Ubuntu as a project
<sabdfl> mdke: it's been discussed at two UDS's in succession, albeit under a different working title
<mako> i still think it's worth dealing with the smaller subset of issues that mdke and i are raising first
<sabdfl> mdke: as i said previously, a seamless experience is a plus, not a minus
<mdke> sabdfl: right, as I hope I made clear in the bug, I think the idea is very exciting, and the implementation (except for the name) good
<mdke> sabdfl: I don't understand that statement
<sabdfl> we modelled out the experience with "Canonical One", and it felt jarring to the user
<mdke> where did the "One" come from?
<Mez> sabdfl: "Canonical One" just sounds like a space shuttle
<nixternal> Mez: airplane
<sabdfl> mdke: a long list of options :-)
<cprofitt> sabdfl, sorry if I am talking out of turn, but will Ubuntu One be something that non-Ubuntu users will be able to make use of as well?
<mdke> sabdfl: but it doesn't mean anything
<Mez> nixternal: hush :D
<mako> i'm not happy trading "jarring for the user" for "sense of institutional independence of the community"
<sladen> sabdfl: hypothetical question;  should a Free (but costing $20/month) alternative to CanonicalSync come along;  are you happy if (hypothetically) the CC choose to ship the Free one as part of UbuntuOne?
<mako> i understand that it's a trade-off we may need to make
<sabdfl> cprofitt: there are web-based interfaces to the current set of services, yes
<mdke> I'm pretty sure that all these clever guys can think of a name that tells the user what the product is effectively, and doesn't blur it with the Ubuntu project itself
<nixternal> would something like Ubu One still be an issue? mdke | mako?
<mako> and i understand that people in canonical (who stand to benefit in ways that i and others in the community do not) might feel different about this
<mako> that's not to say that community people won't benefit
<mako> but they clearly won't benefit in the same way
<sabdfl> mako: it's also not useful to create a false sense of independence. that symbiosis is real, but for many people it's not obvious, and that hurts
<cprofitt> sabdfl, I would be concerned that Ubuntu One may confuse those from other distros then...
<cody-somerville> I think whats most confusing is that a product using Ubuntu One and that actual platform Ubuntu one have the same name.
<mdke> nixternal: I would like something that actually describes what the product is, because it would clearly differentiate the project from Ubuntu.
<mako> i'm not suggesting creating a false sense of independence! i am suggesting reinforcing a real sense of independence!
<sabdfl> mako: i think it's difficult to say that Ubuntu One's success would benefit folks at Canonical more than folks who are not at Canonical
<sabdfl> for example, if Canonical is not a success, a lot of the fun of Ubuntu goes away
<elmo> mdke: ubuntu one is a platform as well as a product; a name describing the platform is not particularly easy to find
<mako> i wouldn't support renaming canonical ubuntu ltd for the same reasons. they're not the same organization
<gregknicholson> If Ubuntu One is so well integrated, does it need its own branding? Can it not just be âthe Ubuntu sync serviceâ?
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, When Canonical develops other products using the Ubuntu One platform, will they be called Ubuntu One as well or will they have their own distinct name?
<sabdfl> gregknicholson: i think we end up there, indeed
<gregknicholson> For example, Nautilus is usually just âthe Ubuntu file browserâ. The code itself could still have a separate codename.
<mdke> elmo: this is probably a rather uninformed question, but what is the difference, from a branding perspective?
<mako> sabdfl: sure, and i really want canonical to be a success for that and for other reasons
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, And what will the trademark policy be for third parties developing a product leveraging Ubuntu One? Will they be able to use the Ubuntu One trademark as a part of their product's branding?
<mako> but i think that canonical's success is dependent on an empowered, distinct, community around ubuntu
<mako> i believe that deeply, as i always have :)
<sabdfl> cody-somerville: yes, in the same way that you can say your product uses libnotify
<mdke> elmo: I mean, a good name is a good name, I would have thought
<nixternal> sabdfl: was it ever discussed about possibly opening up a service like this to more than just Ubuntu?
<mdke> ubunet is a good name, for example
<sabdfl> nixternal: yes, and that remains a possibility. all the client code is open source, hard (and silly) for us to stop it being used in interesting ways
 * nixternal likes Us, like you and I us, as in Ubuntu Syncro or something
<mako> so if pressed, yes, i also think the name is ultimately bad for canonical. but it's not my business to make business decisions for canonical. my job here on this council is to represent what i think is best for the ubuntu community
<nixternal> sabdfl: right, just asked from a naming perspective really, as what I remember you talking about at the last UDS in Mt. View would be super cool to have in the Linux world
<sladen> sabdfl: I'm assuming that in a case of Canonical being laid down, and because of the integration, Ubuntu One would be carried on by the same (your) insurance policy that would allow (the) Ubuntu (Project) to continue in some manner.  If that's not the case, perhaps it should not be so closely integrated and named as such   [nb. I would like it to be tightly integrated, because otherwise there is potential being missed out on]
<sabdfl> sladen: for clarity, continue == meet maintenance commitments for existing releases
<sabdfl> not "stay as much fun" ;-)
<sabdfl> but yes, that raises the key point that a failure would actually affect people's daily experience
<sabdfl> in the same way that Google shutting down a service does
<jono> I am wondering whether we are going in circles with the discussion
<sladen> sabdfl: same as my definition.  [If] Ubuntu One is integrated to the potential it can be;  it will need to be [for existing commitments]
<elmo> mdke: (think it's drifting off topic, but the platform will run a huge range of services eventually, the initial service is simple to describe.  I personally find it harder to name the platform, maybe that's just me.  (And in case it wasn't obvious I wasn't involved in branding of U1))
<nixternal> how about a naming contest :)
 * mdke nods at elmo
<sabdfl> there's no upside to a naming contest - the name is settled. what would be useful is a broader discussion of boundaries in the area of services rendered from the cloud to the desktop
<gregknicholson> I think the community would be happier with a code/product naming split; like identi.ca vs. laconi.ca and Chromium vs. Google Chrome (and a bit like Gecko/Firefox, or historically Mozilla/Netscape).
<sladen> elmo: so it's this Product != Platform != OS confusion
<sabdfl> it's a complicated topic, but this is a smart group, ideas would be welcome
<jono> I think what we need is a clarification of what U1 means to the ubuntu ethos
<sabdfl> i want us to be in the lead on this. if I thought that could include Franklin Street, we'd be there
<cody-somerville> Do people object to the open source platform thats been developed as being called Ubuntu One or the new file syncing service that Canonical has built on top of it?
 * popey quite likes "U1" as a name, without alluding to what it previously/actually stands/stood for
<sabdfl> popey: noted :-)
<Mez> popey: you try buying u1.com
<jono> sabdfl, maybe we could better document this on ubuntu.com
<persia> cody-somerville, I don't think that at the time the bug was filed it was clear to most that there was a distinction between the platform and the file sharing service.
<sladen> cody-somerville: Ubuntu One is a great name.  Everyone can upload (high quality) packages to Ubuntu.  The same should be true of Ubuntu One
<popey> Mez: u1.ubuntu.com :)
<sabdfl> Mez: bono still can't afford it ;-)
<Mez> sabdfl: *groans*
 * Mez wonders who's higher up the "rich list" - sabdfl or bono :D
<mdke> what concerns me most is sabdfl's "the name is settled" statement
<sladen> and Ubuntu One should be moved under the .ubuntu.com domainname (IMHO).  At the moment, ubuntuone.com doesn't even bother to link to ubuntu.com   [*except in a legal notice]
<mako> ok, so it is worth clarifying what exactly we're talking about
<mdke> it kind of makes me feel like I've been putting effort into a useless discussion
 * mako nods to mdke
<mdke> and it identifies what bothers me the most about this whole affair
<mdke> which is that everything was settled well before the Ubuntu community as a community had a look in
<popey> one.ubuntu.com is nice
<sabdfl> mdke: we've had several weeks of discussions on the bugtracker, and a CC meeting on the topic, and there hasn't been an argument that I warrant sufficiently compelling to change course on
<mdke> and that the branding of the project will be changed as a result
<sladen> [IDEA] move Ubuntu One to  one.ubuntu.com
<MootBot> IDEA received:  move Ubuntu One to  one.ubuntu.com
<mako> if the name is settled, than canonical is basically saying that the community council's potential disapporval doesn't matter to how canonical is going to use the mark
<greg-g> if anything, it should be ubuntuone.canonical.com, for the reasons outlined above regarding the community's representation
<sabdfl> sladen: i agree - one.ubuntu.com is how i imagined it
<mako> which makes me feel like (as mdke says) we've been wasting our time and energy
<mdke> sabdfl: sorry, it's just how I feel, and I can see that mako feels the same
<sladen> sabdfl: excellent.  So I'm not completely 180^ from other people!
<Mez> I agree with mako and mdke :D
<sabdfl> mako, mdke, i understand that you feel this way. it was an open question when we started the discussion, there are no new arguments today
<mdke> well
<cody-somerville> Why isn't there a website or anything for the platform?
<sabdfl> cody-somerville: good idea, pitch in and make one!
<mdke> the main reason I wanted to comment on this meeting was the make the point I have made in response to Mark's "Ubuntu is already non-free" point
<mako> sabdfl: the argument is that, at the very least, that decisions to license the ubuntu brand in ways that will affect the community (for better or for use) should be up for review by the community
<cody-somerville> I'd be happy to assist.
<sladen> sabdfl: now, it being at one.ubuntu.com;  what expectation are now expected about its freeness, and openness to contribution by other Ubuntu contributors
<mdke> I haven't seen that point made in the past
<mako> and, "we get to tell canonical how we feel" is a little hollow
<sabdfl> mako: "should be"? i think it would be good not to have massive dissonance, and we clearly have some dissonance here, but creating a false expectation is a recipe for unhappiness later
<sladen> sabdfl: I'd like to work on the right integration of services and Ubuntu.  Would the only way for me to do that, be to go and work for Canonical?
<mdke> I do accept that Mark gets the final say on stuff, because independently, on Canonical's role in the community, he is the sabdfl
<mdke> but I don't feel like the arguments on the brand point have been compelling, to say the least
<cody-somerville> Will the Ubuntu One platform be a product that is owned, managed, and developed by the distribution?
<sabdfl> sladen: no, contributing to the discussions at UDS and on lists on the subject would work. as would contributing to the code where it actually gets integrated
<mako> going with the community governance bodies when everyone agrees is easy
<Mez> sabdfl: A thought: If Dell were the people behind ubuntu one instead of canonical, would you be happy for them to use the name (assuming that it was exactly the same services etc etc)
<mdke> not going to them at all when you know there might be disagreement is also easy
<mako> going with them with everyone in the community disagrees
<mdke> but it's wrong
<sladen> sabdfl: is the code going to be open enough to effectively contribute to?
<jono> what I find a bit disappointing about this issue is that the name has received criticism purely because Ubuntu is used with a commercial affiliation from a single company, without actually assessing the risk associated
<mako> we see an (imperfect) but pretty real split between the canonical and non-canonical members on the cc
<sabdfl> mdke: +1
<jono> I would say the last four years of Canonical has proven Canonical to be trustworthy, and to provide a commercial service with Ubuntu in the name seems reasonable to me
<sabdfl> i think the traffic on the bug has died down because people have assessed the lay of the land and are now waiting to see how it actually works out
<Mez> sabdfl: and if not, why, with respects to the brand, why should canonical be able to do that becase of their affilliation?
<jono> whereas it seems this issue is the black/white discussion of 'Ubuntu' attached to a commercial offering
<mako> sabdfl: i have told people as much
<sladen> sabdfl: (the protocols and local cleints are already---which to me is probably enough)
<sabdfl> and how it works out has a LOT more to do with the tastefulness and boundaries of what gets integrated, where, and how, than it does the name
<mako> sabdfl: i have told upset people on non-ubuntu lists to write down new arguments and to let the cc discuss this
<mdke> jono: I'm surprised by that too. I thought the response to my post on the bug would be "no, you're wrong that the brand will be affected by this, people won't notice". Instead, it's been "Ubuntu being branded as non-free and closed for participation doesn't matter, because it already has that in some areas"
<dinda> jono:  true we already offer Canonical's training under the Ubuntu Training brand
<jono> in my mind, the actions of the commercial entity should be a huge signifier when it comes to their trust in the brand
<sabdfl> so i feel this group could help shape the future interplay of services and software, or it could spend hours arguing about the name
<cody-somerville> mako, mdke: If the file sync service was named "FileSync powered by UbuntuOne", would you still be unhappy?
 * mako nods to mdke 
<sabdfl> clearly, you can see where I think this group's energy would be serve the interests of freedom and beauty :-)
<jono> dinda, exactly
<Mez> cody-somerville: I would be.
<mako> i think it's clear that nobody here wants to argue about the name
<Technoviking> back:)
<sabdfl> mdke: it's not true to phrase this as "branded non-free and closed for participation"
<Mez> sabdfl: did you spot my question scrolling by in the mass debate?
<jono> mdke, indeed
<mako> dinda: if it is an exclusive deal (i.e., nobody else can offer u ubntu training) i think i would objec
<sabdfl> we just had our biggest-ever UDS, where more upstreams flew in at their own expense to participate than ever before
<ibuclaw> o/ Technoviking
<sabdfl> Mez: missed it
<Mez> sabdfl: A thought: If Dell were the people behind ubuntu one instead of canonical, would you be happy for them to use the name (assuming that it was exactly the same services etc etc)
<dinda> mako: it is exclusive to us and partners
<mako> and i agree with mdke. we've probably made mistakes and been sloppy before. which is not a reason to contineu :)
<mako> dinda: which partners get to run ubuntuone?
<mdke> sabdfl: I was rather crudely summarising my concern, rather than saying that this is an actual perception of Ubuntu here and now
<Mez> (Dell is just an example)
<dinda> mako: sorry, training partners
<sabdfl> Mez: we do already outsource services, i.e. brand other people's services "Ubuntu"
<mako> and in general, i'm great with that statement with "us" == ubuntu community
<Mez> sabdfl: any examples that you can share ?
<mako> it's worth distinguishing between projects which are using the name largely descriptively and those that are claiming to actually be ubuntu
<mako> i want to the trademark to be licensed as widely as possible in the first sense
<mako> i want to see lots of people building businesses on ubuntu
<sladen> mez: probably the swag store.  Ubuntu name, but out-sourced
<JanC> I think all this is mostly perception, not in the least because no other company has done an "Ubuntu branded" service... (or at least not a very public one)
<sabdfl> Mez: training - as per the thread between dinda and mako
<mako> but we need to be able to disentangle their business from the ubuntu project proper
<mako> that really is the beginning and end of my litmus test
<cody-somerville> What I find confusing is that the platform and the first ever service built on top of it have the same name.
<sabdfl> the ubuntu magazine.
<jono> mako, do we?
<JanC> the ubuntu-user magazine is brand new, and almost nobody saw it  ;)
<Mez> JanC: if it wasn't for Technoviking twittering it :D
<greg-g> jono: I think we should, but that is just me.
<Mez> :D
<sabdfl> as a thought experiment, imagine the name was FooNet
<mdke> sabdfl: as far as I can see, all existing uses of the brand have a clear description that doesn't cause me to worry that it might be confused with Ubuntu
 * ibuclaw saw it in WHSmith, and read Technoviking 's "answer man" section with glee :P
<JanC> almost nobody uses twitter (relatively speaking compared to Ubuntu users)
<mdke> the Ubuntu Magazine, I'm guessing, must be a magazine
 * Technoviking blushes
<elmo> mdke: good guess
<mdke> Ubuntu Training, ditto, etc etc
<sabdfl> for people who have the view that *any* linking or association with non-free (where the goalposts of "free" move regularly), Ubuntu would still be tainted if it integrated FooNet
<Mez> mdke: Ubuntu Store could be confused :D (oscommerce anyone?)
<mako> jono: if we belonging to our community feel like working for canonical for free, we are in trouble. this is an issue we already struggle with. a clear distinction between ubuntu and the firms that work on it (and canonical in particular) is essential to that
<sabdfl> mortally tainted
<mdke> elmo: whoops, that came across a bit silly
<sabdfl> so, renaming will not address that potential problem
<jono> mako, I am not suggesting that, I am suggesting we need to clearly define the commercial line sand community lines
<Mez> sabdfl: Depends on your definition of free. By the same concensus, any twitter client is non-free
<sabdfl> we are in that world, boots and all
<jono> mako, and I think Ubuntu One is clear in that regard
<persia> I don't think it's about freeness, but about identity by participants.
<mako> jono: oh, that was my point
<sabdfl> now, how do we provide leadership?
<greg-g> however, if the server code were AGPL (or GPL) the naming issue wouldn't be as big an issue, if any.
 * jono high fives mako 
<sabdfl> and how do we do that, grounded in commercial reality?
<mdke> persia: that's also a concern for me
<mako> jono: really? you think ubuntu one is clearly not a product of the ubuntu community?
<sladen> sabdfl: mentioning Foo Net is good;  helps to start separating out what is what
<sabdfl> i'm delighted for others to address this problem in theory - but i want to address it in practice
<jono> mako, I think Ubuntu One from my perspective is a Canonical product made available to the Ubuntu community and customers
<mako> jono: i mean, demonstrably, it is not a product of the ubuntu community. it is a for-profit non-free service of canonical
<Technoviking> mako: but people in the community with be able to contribute plugin to U1 with the api
<RoAkSoAx> jono, +1
<Mez> jono: "from my perspective" being the key words... you are, after all, a canonical employee!
<JanC> mako: I think you have point there, several people feel the tension between working for the community and working for Canonical for free
<sabdfl> as far as I know, none of the critique has come from people who are in the position of building sustainable operations
<sladen> jono: the platform, or the sync service?
<jono> mako, and I think as a heavy commercial invester in Ubuntu, Canonical have a reasonable right to provide a service, under the premise it does not force the community into it
<mako> Technoviking: sure, call the client ubuntu
<JanC> of course, Canonical employs peopel t owork for the community too  ;)
<greg-g> sabdfl: except Evan P.
<jono> Mez, that doesnt matter, that doesnt make me a drone
<sladen> this is as bad as the mess that started with all the papers thinking that UNR was called simply "Remix"
<mako> Technoviking: the parts that are free and institutional indepdent can be called ubuntu. the parts that are a proprietary canonical service are not (and should not be called it)
<mdke> jono: it's not at all clear - I think my first thought as an Ubuntu user hitting the website or reading about the service would be that this is a product of the Ubuntu community
<gregknicholson> sabdfl, you said âi want us to be in the lead on this. if I thought that could include Franklin Street, we'd be thereâ. In your opinion, is it commercially not viable to make Ubuntu One Franklin Street Free?
<cody-somerville> I thought Ubuntu One wasn't a service but a platform.
<Mez> jono, ok, think the same thing. KDE One... would you think that was a service provided by Nokia?
<mako> jono: i think that's all right. but i do not believe that it is in the best interest of the community to call it ubuntu, even if it may be in the best interest of canonical
<jono> mdke, you could argue that in many places Official Ubuntu Book, Ubuntu Training...
<sabdfl> gregknicholson: yes. that's purely a judgement call, i have no evidence to back it up other than i can't think of anyone doing it in practice
<sladen> (bad int he sense that it is hard to discuss an issue where a name is being used in a vague/blurry fashion---simply because it's hard to pin-point what exactly is being talked about)
<popey> jono: both of those _were_ made by community members though
<popey> jono: u1 wasnt
<sabdfl> i think there will be SOME things that work that way (the business lies elsewhere from the service, the server code is an enabler to the network which drives the business)
<mdke> jono: those are all descriptive names (and have community member participation, and are at least *nearly* free)
<mako> jono: we said the (as you'll recall) that the book coulnd't be official unless it was free
<greg-g> well see how status.net goes (the laconi.ca based for-fee service). Evan surely believes he'll be able to be sustainable for a FNS
<Mez> jono: or would you think of it as something by KDE e.V
<Mez> (or the KDE project, whatever you want to call it)
<nixternal> Cohesive FT makes a great living by leveraging the power of Ubuntu and delivering open source solutions
<jono> mako, entirely agree
<sabdfl> but i don't see it being viable to make a blanket up-front commitment to the franklin street code, and still be confident of a reasonable chance of success
<mdke> UbuntuOne doesn't have a descriptive name, isn't free and doesn't have community participation
<jono> mdke, neither is Ubuntu User magazine
<mako> jono: and even if they were exactly the same in type, that doesn't they were necessary the right choice then or that they make this the right choice now
<nixternal> if I didn't get laid off at Cleversafe, we would have leveraged Ubuntu while creating revenue with an open source solution
<sladen> mdke: and doesn't even bother to link to Ubuntu  (unlike every other training company/magazine etc)
<gregknicholson> sabdfl, thanks.
<jono> so, I think everyone has valid points, but we are spinning in circles
<mdke> jono: it's clear to me that that isn't part of Ubuntu as a product though, because it's got "Magazine" in the brand
<mako> jono: you helped write the forward that explained the way that the book had earned its name because it was in fact a product of the community and ownable by it
<jono> we need to think of a way forward on the issue
<Technoviking> mdke: I disagree, the UbuntuOne team is asking for community feedback, I don't view the process as closed
<mako> jono: that's my test, and i don't see ubuntu one passing it
<persia> For the avoidance of confusion, could we separate freeness from the other aspects?  Regardless of anything else, I think most of us could agree that Canonical has the right to make a business decision as to whether an offered service happens to be free (whether Franklin Street Free or otherwise).
<sladen> Technoviking: +1
<cody-somerville> jono, I think the biggest problem is that the platform, which is open source and open to contribution, has the same name as the first service built on top of that platform which happens to be proprietary.
<mako> persia: yes
<sladen> cody-somerville: +1 well summarised
<JanC> does the magazine release its articles under a "free" (CC?) license?
<sabdfl> not AFAIK
<mdke> Technoviking: it has a bug tracker, yeah. But that doesn't take things very far
<mdke> Technoviking: it's not in any way a product that can be considered as produced by the Community
<Mez_> damned netsplit
<Technoviking> I don't see anything the UbuntuOne has planned as hurting the reputation that Ubuntu has built up, but folk we are playing with the big boys now.
<jono> so as this was raised at a CC meeting, are we expecting the CC to vote on this topic?
<mako> JanC: if it doesn't, i'd support the cc making doing so a requirement for using the name going forward
<nixternal> sabdfl: Cleversafe, a storage solutions company, leverages GPL, and they have somewhat been successful even though they are still young...the entire system is open source, except for some of the storage type algorithms they use...it can be done
<Mez_> was there an answer to my question about KDE One?
<mdke> jono: there's nothing to vote about, really
<jono> I am just concious that it is late in Europe and this meeting might go on until 6am
<sabdfl> nixternal: ...except for some of the storage type algorithms they use...
<jono> :)
<elmo> thank you freenode
<nixternal> with Ubuntu one, right now it is Storage as a service, but that will grow, and charging a membership fee could very well work....
<nixternal> sabdfl: right, and the only reason for that is silly patents
<mako> jono: sabdfl has already said (AIUI) it isn't up for discussion
<Mez_> jono, ok, think the same thing. KDE One... would you think that was a service provided by Nokia?
<Mez_> jono: or would you think of it as something by KDE?
<JanC> mako: I can see why they would want "NC", but otherwise i see no point in hiding their content   ã
<mdke> one thing the CC might be able to have a productive discussion about is whether and how it could be possible to avoid things like this happening in the future
<dholbach> jono: as far as I recall the only ideas that came up until now were "rename Ubuntu One" and "involve the CC in trademarks decisions"
<sabdfl> mako: it was up for discussion, we've had extensive public conversations, i'm now of the view that it's a settled matter
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, Are you open to the idea of rebranding the file sync service so that there isn't any confusion as to what Ubuntu One actually is?
<mdke> we've voiced our discontent and sabdfl has made the call, as is his right
<sladen> jono: probably had to vote as the questions are unclear.  "Something" is topical (otherwise people woudn't be here at this hour).  But it's unclear what's actually at issue (one of the contributing factors (probably) being the vagueness of platform/product/OS)
<Technoviking> jono: no vote, the community express a concern and the CC does need to keep an eye on UbuntuOne as it develops and make sure to does not do anything that would harm the community
<sladen> hard
<mako> so it's not an CC issue
<mdke> but I'd still like to figure out how to fix things like this going forward
<mdke> I'm astonished if Canonical didn't foresee some protestation about this, and very disappointed that we weren't involved in the discussion about the use of the mark
<sabdfl> welcome back other half :-)
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, It seems evident that folks keep confusing the Ubuntu One Platform with the filesync service that is built on top of it by Canonical.
 * Mez_ can only assume his question has been missed... again
<JanC> mdke: I would be surprised if they didn't foresee this
<ajmitch> cody-somerville: probably because it's not clear what the platform is
<mdke> JanC: sure, they have a whole community team :)
<mako> if the role of the CC is to act as the sounding board for decisions that canonical (and sabdfl in particular) will make about the mark, i think i was operating under the impression that the community (and CC in particular) was more empowered than it is
<mako> at least in this particular regard
 * Mez decides to goto bed. This is turning into a circular conversation.
<sabdfl> the CC and TB have certainly changed the course of Ubuntu, in several cases where I and others at canonical wanted a particular outcome
<Mez> and I have to be in work early in the morning and hope I don't get made redundant !
<sabdfl> in this case, i think we are missing the opportunity to figure out a richer set of guidelines for online services integration
<JanC> Mez: slaapwel  ã
<sabdfl> we are arguing about the colour of the nuke power station, rather than the elements of its design
<sabdfl> but, that's nature
<mako> except that nobody on the cc has objected to the product or its functionality
<sladen> sabdfl: bingo;  this is what I tried to explore at  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda/talk#Ubuntu%20One
<RoAkSoAx> In the way how i see things (and how many other ppl see it around me) U1 is only a Storage Service rather than a platform, and a service for Ubuntu Users. In my opinion is a good name because it familiarize users and let them know that there are services (or advantages for some) if they use Ubuntu
<sabdfl> we are set on an interesting path, and i intend to try and walk a balanced line, and would appreciate support from community leaders on that
<Technoviking> I'm think maybe the CC needs a clear policy from Canonical on Ubuntu One, certain gurentees for the community
<sabdfl> Technoviking: the shape of that code of conduct, effectively, is what i think would be interesting to discuss
<sladen> Technoviking: I'm not sure that gaurantees would help;  but out of interest, what would you (specfically) have in mind?
<sabdfl> at the moment, we're stuck on two things that aren't that productive for discussion:
<mdke> sabdfl: I don't object to the idea of guidelines for online services integration, but find it difficult to understand what it might look like in the absence of a specific proposal
<Technoviking> 1. The client is free and open. 2. The API is open, no special hooks for vendors who pay, etc...
<sabdfl>  - can Canonical commit to open source all the code it ever produces (no)
<sabdfl>  - should this be renamed to avoid the Ubuntu name (at this point, the decision is that would provide no real benefit)
<sabdfl> but there's surely more to discuss
<sladen> sabdfl: yet again, is "this" the platform, or the sync?
<sabdfl> 2 is interesting, what if there's real cost to providing the hooks?
<JanC> I think nobody complains about U1 functionality, but many complain about the use of "Ubuntu" by Canonical without clear guidelines for (other) companies to use that name too
 * pygi thinks that the server side could always be re-implemented in open-source manner 
<mdke> I've been talking about that second question because I feel strongly about it, but I agree that the discussion has been taken about as far as it can be, and will move on
<dholbach> Technoviking: it's interesting that you're mentioning guarantees right now - I just got the feeling that for me it was easier to trust the Ubuntu One team at Canonical and see how (in a commercial sense) it's in line with the Ubuntu Ethos, because I talked to these people already
<silner> Why isn't it called Canonical One? I suppose it's just not a very catchy name?
<JanC> and I don't say clear guidelines are eay  ;)
<JanC> easy
<mako> sabdfl: and that's a decision you've made that 1/2 of the CC (before Corey left at least, not 2/5 now assuming dholbach is in support) seems to disagree with
<mako> s/not/now/
<elmo> mako: why 1/2 ?
<Technoviking> sabdfl: I'm not much of a programmer, I'm sure I don't understand all the innards of a api set
<persia> I think there are two interesting components.  One is the platform.  The implementation may be closed, but if access is open, I don't imagine an issue with using "Ubuntu": consider shipit, or Soyuz.  The other is particular services: I'd suggest that if a given service is both commercial and closed, that such a service not carry the name "Ubuntu".
<JanC> silner: "Canonical One" is the nickname of sabdfl's plane  ;)
<elmo> mako: by my count it's 4/2 who don't have a problem
<mdke> mako: 3/7 anyway :)
<mako> whoops, i was looking at the list of recently added rather than current
<Technoviking> But I think the API should be a level playing field between community  plugins and commerical
<elmo> or 4 to 2, to be less confusing
<sladen> silner: Fippant: "Canonical One" is aready spoken for.  Longer answer: Ubuntu has the brand value here.  Ubuntu has the potential for integriation of the {platform,app} (See IRC logs from last week)
<mako> elmo: for some reason, youre the only person not on that list
<elmo> mako: oh, I just expired
<mdke> heh, back to 1/2 then :p
<mdke> oh no, that doesn't work either
<mdke> anyway, the numbers aren't important
<silner> sladen, fair enough.
<elmo> mako: but when we had the first meeting, my understanding was: neutral or positive: sabdfl, dholbach, elmo, technoviking.  negative: mako, mdke
<mako> and with the exception of Technoviking, it was a perfect canonical/non-canonical split
<elmo> fwiw
<mdke> I'm not at all surprised at the canonical/non-canonical split
<Technoviking> dholbach: I definite think Canonical has earned the trust to do Ubuntu One'
<elmo> mako/mdke: I think it'd be nice to assume us Canonical folks know how to wear hats
<mdke> I don't think it's a negative thing
<popey> Technoviking: +1
<mako> elmo: corey filed the bug, so i'm assuming he was against it. he was on the cc when he raised the issue
<sladen> Technoviking: same question, the platform or the sync app?
<silner> At the risk of ordinary user naivety, why is this such a big issue?
<sabdfl> neither am i. but i had hoped to make more progress last time, and this time, on the areas which are less well defined
<mdke> elmo: I don't believe in hats, and actually, this isn't about hats
<Technoviking> I'm only trying to find a middle ground so we can move on
<elmo> mako/mdke: I'm not neutral/positive because I'm employed by Canonical; even if Mark were to fire me tomorrow, it wouldn't change my vote
 * mako nods to elmo 
<elmo> (not that we're voting, per se)
<sabdfl> elmo: it's very nearly tomorrow!
<sabdfl> ;-)
<elmo> sabdfl: awesome, shall I torch the office on my way out? ;-P
<Technoviking> I hope that is clearer
<sabdfl> elmo: no, just change the hand-scanner details ;-)
<mdke> elmo: no, but there are all sorts of much more subtle reasons that you might form that view; better knowledge/trust of the individuals taking the decisions, on our side, more (healthy) distrust, etc
<JanC> I think it would be useful if there were guidelines for ubuntu-branded services
<mdke> that's why we have a split membership of the CC
<mako> i'm actually pretty bothered by the way this process has gone on. i didn't realize this wasn't part of the cc's purview until mark mentioned it in this meeting
<sabdfl> we don't have consensus, which is a pity
<sabdfl> it's also a pity that the split is largely along canonical / non-canonical lines
<sabdfl> but i'm proud of the fact that we have this forum, and this discussion is being held here
<jono> ditto
<sladen> sabdfl: can I pin you down on this platform/applications-built-on issue.  To what extent is the blurring intentional
<mdke> it's a shame it is being held now though
<jono> sorry folks, I need to get onto a call in a few mins
<sabdfl> i don't feel we're generating great ideas and suggestions, because i think we're stuck on the name, which is imo a false issue
<RoAkSoAx> why don't you just set up a survey for all the Ubuntu Community and see if they agree/disagree with the name.. and other possible Ubuntu Branded services, rather than just keeping this issue between the CC? This way, you'll have the opinion of pretty much all the community.
<sabdfl> because solving it won't change the sense of "this is dangerous territory indeed"
<jono> RoAkSoAx, that turns it into a popularity contest, which is not the best determining factor
<mdke> I think you could easily solve both those issues
<popey> i think it's fair to say that if the cc was comprised of 10x the number it currently is, the split between canonical/non-canonical would be considerably less apparent. I'm sure there's many community folk out there who trust Canonical to "Do the right thing", and that it will pan out well, whether they contribute to the discussion or not.
<sabdfl> we are better off acknowledging that we are on dangerous and uncharted territory, and finding our footing, caregfully
<JanC> sabdfl: why not set a minimal set of rules for companies to use the Ubuntu brand for services?
<sabdfl> RoAkSoAx: because this is not a democracy, and allowing things to turn into herd affairs and flamewars is not constructive
<silner> popey, that's my feeling as normal user. Canonical have done enough to deserve my trust.
<jono> ok folks, heading to this call, ping me if I can help with anything
<RoAkSoAx> jono, right, but that will point out if the name Ubuntu One has affected users or community members. Since many people here say that's a fact that using Ubuntu Branded names for services will affect the community
<mako> popey: for god sakes man, i trust canonical
<JanC> if that's public, it would be much easier for Canonical...
<popey> oh, I'm not implying you dont mako, sorry if that's how it came across.
<mdke> popey: just to be clear, I have a good deal of trust for Canonical too; I just think this was a (rare) wrong decision
<mako> for me, this is about the effect on voluntary contributions of visible symbols of single-firm ownership
<sabdfl> JanC: we do have criteria, and we have the flexibility to decide how they are applied, and so far i think we've done a good job of building the brand accordingly
<mako> and there's empirical work to back me up here (in the the general sense, at least)
<sabdfl> mdke: i accept that it may be a wrong decision, and if so, that we have the savvy to correct it graciously
<sabdfl> it wouldn't be the first time. nekkid people, anyone?
<sladen> sabdfl: platform vs. app?  It will make this easier to discuss
<popey> :)
<mdke> hah
<silner> I can also see that Canonical need a way of making money.
<JanC> sabdfl: but currently those rules are set by canonical (which is your legal right), but they aren't really public IMHO
<sabdfl> anyhow, i think we are out of time. i need more beauty sleep than this council allows
<dholbach> just to clarify my position a bit: I personally feel that Ubuntu One follows a lot of ideals that we have in the Ubuntu community: stuff-made-to-just-work, being pragmatic, being transparent (open protocol), being useful (2G free for everybody) and being inviting (API, etc.) - all of that in a commercial setting that works a bit differently
<Technoviking> sabdfl: :)
<mdke> sabdfl: thanks for that statement. However, this *will* be a big project and a successful one, so if it starts on the wrong foot in terms of brand, that won't be reversible
<RoAkSoAx> sabdfl, off course. Though since many people say the name affects the community, it would be nice to to see if they actually are affected by the use of UBuntu Branded services.. and In my opinion... it just doesn't affect us (the entire Ubuntu community) at all
<mako> dholbach: so i agree with that statement
<silner> So I'm prepared to cut them some slack on this. I think many ordinary users feel the same.
<sabdfl> mdke: we are already on that foot, and the starting gun is echoing from the walls of the stadium
<mdke> sabdfl: what do you mean?
<sabdfl> if it's a horrible misjudgement, then we have paid the price for it already
<mdke> I don't think so
<stani> sabdfl: would you be willing to provide Ubuntu One free as beer (more than 2G) for open source projects?
<sabdfl> (i had an image of an athlete launching themselves from the starting blocks, on that "wrong foot")
<sladen> stani: the service or the app?
<sabdfl> stani: we certainly have that option, we do that sort of thing in LP too
<sladen> stani: the platform or the app?
<sabdfl> and for ubuntumembers, for example
<silner> sabdfl, Nor me. I don't think it's serious enough to harm the wider community at all.
<sabdfl> but that blurs the line between principle and "club", right
<stani> sladen: whatever an open source project needs
<mdke> I definitely see this as being very successful, and welcome that. What I'm concerned about is its effect by association on Ubuntu; and the way that it has been handled
 * mako nods to mdke 
<sabdfl> silner: it's certainly a significant issue, and could well have a major negative impact, so we have to watch it closely
<mdke> in the round, the name will play a very small part in the success of the project
<JanC> well, Ubuntu One also involves Amazon AFAIK...
<sladen> stani: right, the question is vague, I think you need to define it, otherwise we're all being vague and going around in circles
<mdke> I feel passionately that it would have made Canonical a lot of money with a name that would have satisfied me
<sladen> mdke: focus less on money, and more on the global success of Ubuntu.  One leads to the other.
<mako> yes, i agree
<sabdfl> mdke: i can only say that i reviewed a lot of names, some with and some without "Ubuntu" in them, and I think the team picked the best one
<mdke> sladen: I'm fully aware of that
<sabdfl> it was suggested, in fact, by one of the biggest project contributors of all
<mdke> sabdfl: to be honest, I am ok with names with "Ubuntu" in them (see the magazine).
<sabdfl> but to name them would be to draw them into this debate
<mdke> heh
<mdke> ok, I need to go to bed
<popey> i wont be able to sleep now!
<Technoviking> Getting the name Ubuntu out more I feel will only benefit Ubuntu as a whole
 * popey prints out the ubuntumembers page
 * popey gets a pin
<mako> sabdfl: and i think if that if an empowered community is a goal, the decision to choose that name should be one that is ultimately up to the community
<mdke> thanks everyone for the discussion; feel free to carry on without me
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-03
<popey> Technoviking: only if it's associated with positive things
<dholbach> thanks mdke and good night
 * mdke hugs dholbach 
<JanC> sabdfl: I think you should have created a more public & clear explanation about how other service providers could use the "Ubuntu" brand before launching this
<sabdfl> thanks all
 * dholbach hugs mdke back
<sabdfl> JanC: have you read the trademark guidelines?
<Technoviking> popey: I believe it will be, and willing to take the chance
<sladen> shall we put this off until next fortnight, see what has happened, see whether the situation has defined/refined itself for ease of clarity of knowing which bits we're trying to discuss?
<popey> Technoviking: ditto
<sabdfl> hugs all round folks. sorry we have to go to bed on an argument ;-)
<sabdfl> night
<JanC> sabdfl: the trademark guidelines are clear for locoteams
<sladen> [ACTION] Raise+review at next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Raise+review at next meeting
<nhandler> Will the Team Report issue be deferred as well?
<JanC> but not really for commercial use IMHO
<elmo> nhandler: I think it'll have to be, sorry
<dholbach> nhandler: can you bring it up on the CC mailing list?
<elmo> nhandler: we're going on two hours now
<JanC> except for "contact Canonical"
<sladen> nhandler: make sure it comes up earlier next time
<sladen> nhandler: sorry
<elmo> and personally, I'd kind of like to go home, especially if this is my last day ;-)
<nhandler> dholbach: Sure ting
<popey> hah
 * dholbach hugs elmo
<mako> i'm pretty bothered by the way this all happened. more so than i am bothered with the outcome, actually
<dholbach> nhandler: thanks - I'll take a look at it tomorrow
<nhandler> dholbach: As a note, I already made the changes for the MC
<boredandblogging>  /msg nhandler can you cc me on that email
<boredandblogging> bah
<nhandler> Yes boredandblogging ;)
<nixternal> hahaha
<sladen> mako: it is still "happen_ing_" (one hopes)
<elmo> mako: in what sense?
<JanC> it's not only about companies wanting to provide services, but also about users wanting to know what they can expect!
<ibuclaw> /msg boredandblogging !fail
<boredandblogging> major fail on my part
<Technoviking> later all have to get my son from school
<mako> elmo: i feel less a community governance board than a community "tell us what you think we and we'll consider it" board than i did a few hours ago
<sladen> mako: Community Focus Group.
<mako> which, honestly, makes me feel a little bit like a tool ;)
<elmo> mako: for the specific issue of trademarks?
<mako> elmo: yes
<elmo> mako: honestly, I'm surprised that you're surprised, considering what you did @ Canonical?
<mako> elmo: i always thought canonical acted in accordance to its idea of the community and would answer to them
<mako> elmo: if they ever diverged
<elmo> I think we've always been pretty upfront about the fact that Canonical owns the trademark, and also that we've been using it for commercial services (ours and other peoples) since almost the beginning
<gregknicholson> Up 'til now, development by the community has been an important part of the Ubuntu brand (to me). It seems that Ubuntu One doesn't follow this brand value, and so âUbuntuâ no longer signifies âcommunity-developedâ.
<mako> elmo: i would have been MUCH happier to be outvoted than to be told that it wasn't even something we could vote on
<elmo> mako: I don't think it's at all clear that the majority of this council, never mind the community agree with you
<mako> elmo: that's plausible. but like i said. i would have been much happier to have been outvoted
<sladen> elmo: no, it's surprised me too.  (That the CC appears to have less signficance that presumed, or indeed that the paperwork suggests that it has as the last-point-of-decision)
<mako> elmo: i'd rather be on the loosing side of a democratic decision than to be told there's no democracy in a place i thought there was
<elmo> sladen: which part are you "no-ing"?
<silner> mako, I think Trademark is a very difficult area for Canonical. I can see that very clearly from the outside.
<elmo> mako: well, a) this isn't technically a democracy, the whole 'sabdfl' thing, b) let's be careful to frame this in the  context of the trademark specifically
<mako> silner: i understand. i helped craft the trademark guidelines and answered trademark@canonical.com for a job for a while
<JanC> mako: sabdfl's nickname already says that there is no democracy  ;)
<elmo> mako: nothing's changed outside of that, I hope you'll agree?
<elmo> (I'd argue nothing's change with the trademark, but I understand that this may be new information to some people)
<mako> JanC: sabdfl gets to veto all cc members
<JanC> (which doesn't mean I agree with and/or follow all decisions made ;) )
<mako> elmo: sure, i think that's right
<sladen> elmo: can you prhase the question more specifically?
<elmo> sladen: "< sladen> elmo: no, it's surprised me too."
<elmo> sladen: what's the "no" refer to?
<silner> I had always assumed, again from the outsider viewpoint, that the Trademark was the company's, not the community's?
<mako> elmo: but if the ubuntu communit governance system doesn't even get to decide what ubuntu is and isn't....
<mako> elmo: even if it's "just the trademark" it's a pretty big deal IMHO
<sladen> elmo: the percieved irrelevance of the CC on this issue
<elmo> nobody's said the CC is irrelevant
<mako> silner: legally, it always has been
<elmo> there's a huge difference between 'not having total control' and 'being irrelevant'
<dholbach> and it doesn't do all the things the CC did justice
<mako> silner: but canonical could take a position that it's going to put decisoins about the ubuntu mark ultimately in the community's domain
<elmo> the CC is hugely important; and FWIW I agree, it would have been nice to bring this to the CC first
<mako> it's like fedora early on. the fedora governance would get overruled by red hat over issues (often legal issues)
<elmo> people were saying earlier, they were surprised people didn't predict this
<JanC> like I said, it would have been much easier if there were guidelines about what is an appropriate ubuntu-branded service
<mako> and it basically left a real sour taste in people's moth
<mako> mouth even :)
<elmo> FWIW, (although I'm not involved in U1), I was honestly surprised by the reaction
<JanC> and we can still define such guidelines...
<mako> JanC: so i think this should and will happen in any case
<elmo> so although it's easy to say in retrospect, "the CC should have been consulted", I can also honestly say that I think us (CC) not having been consulted was a genunine mistake rather than deliberate
<mako> elmo: sure, but the cc being told that their opinion ultimately didn't matter was a bigger one
<silner> mako, it's odd in one way cos I would have thought, commercially, Canonical would have wanted to push the company name, rather than the Ubuntu Brand?
<Vantrax> elmo Sabdfl admitted that last CC meeting when I raised that
<JanC> elmo: I can see how that could be a mistake  ;)
<sladen> elmo: interesting.  I could see it was going to be a hot potatoe (perhaps the first LWN comments that appeared immediatley).  I avoided forming an opinion until after the previous CC meeting had finished
<elmo> mako: it's not that it doesn't matter
<elmo> mako: it's that the CC doesn't own the trademark
<elmo> mako: that doesn't mean Canonical doesn't value the CC's opinion
<mako> elmo: i'm not happy with "we listen to the you when we either don't care or you agree with us"
<mako> that's simply not governance
<elmo> mako: and if everyone on the CC was saying 'this is a terrible idea', I'm absolutely sure it would have an effect
<sladen> elmo: I see the platform being clearly good.  A confusion comes from the infrastructure authority (railway parlance) also running the train services built on it.
<mako> elmo: we didn't even have an option of voting
<elmo> but the reality is, when this first started it was 2 saying that, vs. 4 not
<sladen> elmo: the platform should be for the clear benefit of Ubuntu, and have a name that matches
<mako> elmo: sabdfl said he had made up his mind
<JanC> let's say it like this: if anybody would have asked me, I would have warned about the problems people have with this...
<JanC> and I'm sure several other people here knew that
<sladen> elmo: for the services running running on the platform, it shoulld be open to all, and they're shouldn't all also be called Network Rail
<bodhi_zazen> The UFBT meeting is moving to #ubutnuforums-beginners :)
<mako> elmo: like i said, i would be much happier now if we had had a vote and i'd be outnumbered
<mako> elmo: feeling in the minority, i'm used to :)
<elmo> mako: but Mark _can do that about any decision_
<elmo> mako: that's what his nick is all about
<JanC> bodhi_zazen: you mean #ubuntuforums-beginners ?
<elmo> mako: so, umm, honestly I'm confused
<nhandler> Yes he did JanC
<JanC> ;)
<silner> I can't form an opinion on whether there should have been a vote. I hate to sit on the fence but I going to have to say here for now :)
<silner> elmo, what does his nick stand for? I should know really.
<mako> elmo: i guess you're right. but it's the first time it's happened (at least IIRC)
<sladen> silner: and what would the/a vote have been?  (What question /if/?)
<elmo> silner: self appointed benevolent dictator for life
<sladen> silner: the 'd' is the dictator bit
<nixternal> elmo: I think the reason for the stink, is that some of the Ubuntu volunteer contributors feel they are now contributing to the pockets of Canonical, more so than they did 2 years ago
<silner> Ah thanks
<elmo> nixternal: well
<elmo> nixternal: maybe they do feel that way, but I'm not sure we can fix that.  I mean, in some respects, any contributor to Ubuntu (or upstream open source) has been doing that to one degree or another?
<JanC> I think both are contributing to each other, to some degree
<elmo> nixternal: would renaming U1 really change that?
<sladen> nixternal: okay, the "pockets" is not and issue for me.  For every 100 quid I've spent on Ubuntu promotion, Canonical have probably about matched that.  And in return I've made income from that
<mako> elmo: a statement that something can happen but that is different than it actually happening.
<nixternal> elmo: nope, but all U1 did was act as the straw that broke the camel's back, imho
<JanC> sladen: that's not true for everybody though  ;)
<elmo> mako: sure
<greg-g> elmo: except Canonical hasn't been competing with the community before, really. Selling support is one thing, but competing with another floss project (specifically iFolder, which Canonical could have picked up and made into the base of what is UbuntuOne)
<elmo> greg-g: I honestly don't think iFolder is in the same space as U1?
 * popey stifles a giggle about ifolder
<nixternal> sladen: as have I, but not everyone sees it that clearly I guess
<elmo> greg-g: and certainly not in the same space as U1 the platform
<greg-g> elmo: file sync with the ability to add in services that U1 is thinking of adding
<popey> greg-g: its the other way round, services, of which file sync is one
<greg-g> can U1 people explain what those services are?
<elmo> (full disclosure: I've not run ifolder (nobody will bloody package it), just listened to jcastro rant about it)
<popey> many have tried elmo, many have failed
<sladen> see at the moment, I can write a piece of software and upload it to the Ubuntu archive.  I can't do that for ubuntu One
<dholbach> greg-g: don't you think "competing with the community" is a bit drastic there for deciding to not reuse a piece of code that exists somewhere?
<nixternal> I also feel that if U1 came out with a "First to market" product instead of a blatent Dropbox clone, it might be a bit different...and I do understand this is just the beginning and I have an idea of what is to come because of the previous UDS discussions..that's why I didn't flip out about it :)
<elmo> it's also more than just file sync, it's also about sharing
<greg-g> dholbach: a little yes, but I couldn't think of a better word to use.
<gregknicholson> dholbach: closed-source code will *always* be competing with the FOSS community
<sladen> and if I did, I perceieve, that my BetterSync(tm) it would not be on equal footing to CanonicalSync(tm)
<greg-g> elmo: which iflder does
<silner> At the risk of being a Luddite I can't see myself every really trusting cloud services.
<sladen> and more likely (just as Apple do), Canonical would not allow BetterSync(tm) to be included on ubuntu One
<elmo> greg-g: not integrated with SSO and teams like U1 will do
<sladen> elmo: SSO?
<mako> ok, i'm going to need to think about this more. but i'm pretty upset about the way this all happened. even if i shoulnd't have been suprirsed
<greg-g> elmo: it is the things that can't be annouced right now due to business contracts that worry me
<elmo> sladen: single sign on
<dholbach> ok guys... it's 1:22 over here and I'm really really tired
<elmo> greg-g: blink, like what?
<dholbach> good night and thanks everyone
 * nixternal hugs dholbach 
<ajmitch> dholbach: sleep well :)
<sladen> mako: well if you get a chance, do email/IRC...
 * popey hugs dholbach 
 * dholbach hugs y'all back
<emmajane> mako, you around for a bit?
<greg-g> elmo: things that shouldn't be discussed in any public channel, I would suggest asking the U1 people about it
<mako> sladen: i've been traveling
<elmo> mako: I'm sorry your upset, and like sladen, I'd encourage you to write it up in email
<mako> elmo: i will
 * tonyyarusso is mostly just upset about the choice of name
<silner> I have to sleep now. Interesting reading though!
<nixternal> make that email public mako :)
<elmo> mako: I don't think irc has proved the best forum for this, as a lot of the issues require more thought than a time limited IRC meeting allows
<greg-g> g'night dholbach
<mako> elmo: sure, my own thinking has improved over the last week
<greg-g> the issue is that more and more services that will be seen to be a part of Ubuntu will be dependent on a proprietary backend
<elmo> dude
<elmo> that's so already happening
<greg-g> that is it. just saying.
<elmo> with or without U1
<greg-g> I know
<greg-g> but people see that expansion and think "when will it stop?"
<nixternal> right, I think the whole "when will it stop?" is what sent quite a few into a feeding frenzy
<greg-g> my personal view is not set in stone yet, either.
<elmo> part of my frustration with this whole situation is that I think the name's a lot less interesting than what's included by default in Ubuntu
<elmo> and right now, Ubuntu already includes clients, by default, for a whole bunch of non-free, non-FSS services
<elmo> the most obvious of which being the search in firefox
<nixternal> mine isn't, as I could almost not really care anymore, I just don't like seeing a tarnish on the community and people continually bad mouthing us either...plus it wasn't named Kubuntu One so I am cool :p
<greg-g> right, but they weren't developed by Canonical, and I think people see Canonical as having a higher standard.
<elmo> I see users seeing _that_ as Ubuntu, and _that_ causing confusion WRT what's "free" or not, much more so than whether or not U1 has 'Ubuntu' in the name
<tonyyarusso> I don't even care if they were developed by Canonical.  They aren't saying "hey looky, we're Ubuntu too!" when they're blatently not.  They're called things like "Google", not "Ubuntu Search".
<elmo> greg-g: higher standard> is both flattering and frustrating, from my POV ;-)
<greg-g> elmo: indeed. :)
<nixternal> I think another reason people targetd U1 for the trademark/naming is because any other argument against it doesn't hold water as easily maybe?
<elmo> tonyyarusso: users don't care about names.  they care about what they get by default
<elmo> tonyyarusso: I know way too may technical users who call firefox and/or the internet 'google'
<greg-g> elmo: thats not really true, otherwise all marketing campaings are for naught
<sladen> elmo: none of those clients included with ubuntu use the ubuntu name
<tonyyarusso> elmo: Even if users don't care, *contributors* do.  As someone who provides IRC support and does promotion for Ubuntu, not having a clear demarcation point is very bothersome.
<greg-g> I think I'm going to stop, since elmo seems to be getting a barage of comments thrown at him right now
<sladen> elmo: they are each an application that has proved itself and established its *own* brand (and even changed it successfully over time;  Firefox, Pidgin)
<tonyyarusso> This isn't about the user experience, but whether Canonical has any right to disregard the feelings of the Ubuntu community.
<elmo> tonyyarusso: I don't believe Canonical is disregarding them
<gregknicholson> tonyyarusso +1 and +1 â¦and +1 again.
<JanC> elmo: making Ubuntu *more* dependent on proprietary backends isn't going to make it more popular...
<JanC> even if it only looks like it's more dependent
<elmo> tonyyarusso: and I take exception to your implicit claim to speak for the entire Ubuntu community
<elmo> JanC: I'm nore sure I claimed it was?
<sladen> elmo: the (ssemingly intentional) conflating of services, platforms and integration bugs me;  not because it's not a good thing, but it's *really hard to discuss* when it's all called ".NET framework"  (CLI? CLR? C#? Classlibraries? JIT?)
<tonyyarusso> elmo: If the exact same functionality was included, with the backend remaining proprietary and the client open, and it was included by default, but with a name that conveyed its true relationship, I would be perfectly fine with that.  I would *prefer* a FLOSS backend, but I wouldn't be angry about it.
<elmo> tonyyarusso: ok, and on the flip side, there's demonstrably a large chunk of the community (including it's highest governance board) who are not angry, and sometimes even happy about the name
<elmo> tonyyarusso: I'm not dismissing your concerns, but they need to be balanced with other peoples positions
<tonyyarusso> elmo: Okay, I don't speak for the whole community.  If you want a reliable measurement of that, put the name of the service up for a vote among all Ubuntu Members, and then we can both accept the outcome of that as being representative.
<JanC> elmo: you said that there is no problem because Ubuntu is already dependent on such backends
<popey> popularity contests rarely resolve these questions tonyyarusso
<greg-g> take care all, thanks for the discussion. time to head out for a beer.
<elmo> tonyyarusso: I refer you to popey and sabdfl's response to 'popular vote' suggestions
<JanC> that doesn't mean people like it, and/or want more of it  ;)
<elmo> JanC: I didn't say that dude
<gregknicholson> Freedom-hating and community-hating aside, âUbuntu Oneâ sounds very much like âWindow Liveâ, which was a *rubbish* brand. Everyone still calls Windows Live Messenger MSN, and the web search offering is now named after a character from Friends.
<sladen> gregknicholson: bing bing!!
<JanC> <elmo> part of my frustration with this whole situation is that I think the name's a lot less interesting than what's included by default in Ubuntu
<JanC> <elmo> and right now, Ubuntu already includes clients, by default, for a whole bunch of non-free, non-FSS services
<JanC> <elmo> the most obvious of which being the search in firefox
<sladen> gregknicholson: if it deserves the name, it really needs integrating totally.  That means making last.fm etc "just work"
<elmo> JanC: which part of that is "there is no problem"?
 * JanC doesn't use default search in firefox  :P
<tonyyarusso> If the name's "a lot less interesting", then just change it and we can focus on the interesting parts instead.
<elmo> sladen: conflation> is this not orthogonal to 'ubuntu in the name or not'?
 * nixternal either :)
<sladen> elmo: platform != applications
<sladen> elmo: to me, the platform belongs to ubuntu (tell me if I'm wrong here)
<gregknicholson> sladen: and therefore having no branding of its own. Just âUbuntu's sync serviceâ. Much like how Gedit and Nautilus are âUbuntu's text editorâ and âthe file browserâ. The code/project should have its own (largely internal) name though (think Chromium and laconica).
<popey> JanC: you are the exception rather than the rule
<sladen> elmo: the applications dsitributed by it belong to Canonical (tell me if I'm wrong here)
<elmo> sladen: err, I can't speak to that
<elmo> sladen: with either hat on
<elmo> not authoritatively anyway
<sladen> elmo: and (the between the lines bit), is that am beginning to come to the conlusion that that likely _should_ be the distrinction
<JanC> popey: maybe true, but people don't use "firfox google search" because they like it more than any other search (google-provided or not)
<elmo> sladen: but the applications are open source, so I'm not sure how they belong to Canonical, except in the way bzr does
<sladen> elmo: and which therefore leads to no probably with the Ubuntu One name (since it's somebeing infrastructure wise, that's neutral, and for the good of ubuntu generally)
<elmo> if by applications, we mean the client side part
<popey> JanC: no, they use it because they're lazy and it works
<sladen> by applications I mean "CanonicalSync"
<elmo> anyway.  it's like past midnight, and I last ate 12 hours ago, and I'm still in the office
<sladen> and "CanonicalCloudService"
<popey> JanC: evidenced by the number of people who dont change their browser home page in IE from msn
<elmo> so my answers and discussion is probably becoming increasingly incoherent
<elmo> so I'm going to have to call it a night
<sladen> but it's hard to discuss this, because the distinction is not being made
<elmo> I'd encourage folks still concerned to followup in email prior to the next meeting
<sladen> elmo: thank you for staying up so late
<popey> thanks for taking the extended time to talk about it elmo, it's appreciated
<JanC> popey: most search engines (including live search) aren't worse than google search these days
<tonyyarusso> Imagine how silly it would be if it were called "Ubuntu Messenger" instead of Pidgin just because it was the default application.
<popey> JanC: i never said they were :)
<elmo> good night all
<dinda> elmo: please go eat and go home!
<sladen> night all.  Probably see you in a fortnight
<sladen> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:40.
<greg-g> oh, this was all still considered a part of the meeting?
<JanC> :P
<nhandler> greg-g: I thought the official meeting ended around the time sabdfl left
<JanC> who cares, logs are public
<pace_t_zulu> everyone here for the Tennessee Team meeting?
<pace_t_zulu> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:00. The chair is pace_t_zulu.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * galant14b raises his hand
 * mac9416 <
<wrst> present
 * w4ett here
<linuxman410> here
<pace_t_zulu> so we've got our agenda on the wiki
<pace_t_zulu> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TennesseeTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TennesseeTeam/Meeting
<pace_t_zulu> first topic is OPs and founder-ship on #ubuntu-us-tn
<pace_t_zulu> [TOPIC] OPs and founder-ship on #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> New Topic:  OPs and founder-ship on #ubuntu-us-tn
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: what's the status on foundership? I know it was up in the air last week
<pace_t_zulu> currently we only have one active member who has OP privileges
 * w4ett raises hand
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, Matthew Craig never responded to my request to transfer foundership
<pace_t_zulu> pleia2 has assured us that we will be able to transfer foundership provided the team agrees on it
<pleia2> it's a process :) but can be done for all resources when the team leaders are MIA
<pace_t_zulu> so i think we should transfer founder-ship to an active team member and get OP privileges to at least a couple active team members
<pace_t_zulu> anyone else want to contribute their thoughts on the matter?
<w4ett> It is a logical course to follow
<pace_t_zulu> fyi commands for MootBot can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<pace_t_zulu> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] transfer founder-ship to an active team member and get OP privileges to at least a couple active team members
<MootBot> IDEA received:  transfer founder-ship to an active team member and get OP privileges to at least a couple active team members
<mac9416> I think it is fair to say that pace_t_zulu is a very active member, so I believe he would be a logical choice for founder or OP.
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: let me look at that link really quick.
<galant14b> mac9416: agreed
<wrst> i agree mac9416
<pace_t_zulu> thanks guys... i am humbled
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: you're consistently around, helpful and never anyone incite any sort of temper. All good qualities we should want for founder/OP
<mac9416> So, is pace_t_zulu willing?
<pace_t_zulu> so should we take a vote regarding whether our current founder is uncooperative and we should thus pursue the process of transferring founder-ship?
<galant14b> wow i need to proofread what i write...."never let anyone incite any sort of temper"
<pace_t_zulu> mac9416, i am willing if the team decides it
<galant14b> I say put it to a vote
<w4ett> pace_t_zulu:  a vote is in order
<mac9416> "whether our current founder is uncooperative" I'm not sure that's necessary ;-)
<galant14b> current founder has proven he's not willing to be cooperative
<pace_t_zulu> [VOTE]  our current founder is uncooperative and we should thus pursue the process of transferring founder-ship
<MootBot> Please vote on:   our current founder is uncooperative and we should thus pursue the process of transferring founder-ship.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mac9416> Ah, Ok
<pace_t_zulu> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pace_t_zulu. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<galant14b> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from galant14b. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mac9416> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mac9416. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<w4ett> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from w4ett. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<wrst> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from wrst. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<linuxman410> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from linuxman410. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<pace_t_zulu> wrst LibertyTiger  ?
<galant14b> wrst voted
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, sorry, missed that
<pace_t_zulu> looks like this is unanimous...
<pace_t_zulu> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<pace_t_zulu> [AGREED] our current founder is uncooperative and we should thus pursue the process of transferring founder-ship
<MootBot> AGREED received:  our current founder is uncooperative and we should thus pursue the process of transferring founder-ship
<galant14b> even given the couple of active members we have missing today, i think this is the general consensus i've felt in the channel over the last couple weeks
<MTecknology> pace_t_zulu: #ubuntu-irc can help you with that
<pace_t_zulu> ok so now it seems we should decide on who will receive foundership ... lets do nominations
<pace_t_zulu> i'd like to nominate w4ett ...
<pace_t_zulu> MTecknology, thank you
<pace_t_zulu> or do you guys think we should hold off to decide who should receive foundership?
<wrst> i like your idea pace_t_zulu especially considering the dedication w4ett had even when he was in the hospital
<mac9416> From Star Wars I: "Vote now!" ;-)
<pleia2> FWIW w4ett is currently the successor for the channel, so it probably be easiest to promote him to channel founder
<w4ett> pace_t_zulu: I think we need to resolve to make the changes before we select replacements
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, i thought we just resolved to change foundership... can you clarify?
<pace_t_zulu> pleia2 +1
<mac9416> w4ett, so you suggest only appointing OPs today?
<w4ett> Oh.......thought it was ops at this point
<pace_t_zulu> should we conduct a quick vote to establish that w4ett is our pick for founder since his is the successor
<galant14b> i tend to agree with what wrst and pleia2 have said though. w4ett has been here a while, he is the natural choice if he would accept/desires the position
<w4ett> but at pleia2  says I have the successorship, but that does not mean I need to get the foundership of the channel
<pace_t_zulu> i don't hear any dissenting w4ett receiving founder
<pleia2> w4ett: currently you have the power to add other ops :)
<w4ett> If appointed I will server
<w4ett> yep
<pleia2> you only lack the founder mode, which isn't a huge deal logistics-wise
 * mac9416 is prepared to vote for w4ett, since there appears to be no dissent.
<pace_t_zulu> i motion that we vote regarding w4ett being the channel founder of #ubuntu-us-tn
 * galant14b nods
<mac9416> second.
<pace_t_zulu> [VOTE] w4ett to be appointed founder of #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> Please vote on:  w4ett to be appointed founder of #ubuntu-us-tn.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pace_t_zulu> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pace_t_zulu. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mac9416> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mac9416. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<galant14b> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from galant14b. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<linuxman410> +1
<wrst> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from linuxman410. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from wrst. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<w4ett> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from w4ett. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pace_t_zulu> i reckon that vote is conclusive
<pace_t_zulu> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 5
<popey> :)
<pace_t_zulu> [AGREED] w4ett to be appointed founder of #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> AGREED received:  w4ett to be appointed founder of #ubuntu-us-tn
<pace_t_zulu> [ACTION] w4ett to be appointed founder of #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> ACTION received:  w4ett to be appointed founder of #ubuntu-us-tn
<pace_t_zulu> so should we turn our attention to OPs in #ubuntu-us-tn?
<galant14b> sounds reasonable
<mac9416> agreed
<pace_t_zulu> shall we decide on how many new OPs we need?
<pace_t_zulu> previously it has been suggested that we should have 2 OPs in addition to the founder
<mac9416> Sounds reasonable.
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: that sounds like a reasonable number
<pace_t_zulu> [TOPIC] OPs in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> New Topic:  OPs in #ubuntu-us-tn
<popey> you already have that
 * w4ett sounds good
<popey> pleia2, nealmcb and w4ett
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] 2 OPs in addition to founder
<MootBot> IDEA received:  2 OPs in addition to founder
 * galant14b has never seen nealmcb in #ubuntu-us-tn
<wrst> me either galant14b
<popey>  /msg chanserv flags #ubuntu-us-tn
<popey> ^^ that tells you who is
<pace_t_zulu> popey, pleia2 is not a member of the Tennessee team... thanks you
<pleia2> popey: neither nealmcb nor I are not part of -tn, we're mentors from the USTeams, we were added to help them out
<popey> of course.. sorry, my bad
<galant14b> pleia2: ahh
<popey>  /ignore popey
<w4ett> neal and pleia are mentors from the us team
<pleia2> popey :)
<pace_t_zulu> ok... moving on
<pace_t_zulu> let's take ideas on how to decide who our OPs should be...
<MTecknology> I vote for removing the ability for any ubuntu member to become op
<pace_t_zulu> anyone disagree with the idea of 2 OPs in addition to w4ett?
<mac9416> agreed
<wrst> sounds good
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: negative
<w4ett> disagree
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, clarify?
<MTecknology> also - w/ your access list - anyone change change their nick to w4ett and become op - any random person at all
<w4ett> ubuntu membership should not disqualify one from serving
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, +1
<wrst> oh yeah i agree with that w4ett
<wrst> i was agreeing with pace_t_zulu
<pace_t_zulu> anyone who abuses their ubuntu membership is subject to the Code of Conduct
<w4ett> just "one bad apple" you understand
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, have you registered your nick with freenode?
<w4ett> yes...my nick is registered
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] vote on 2 OPs in addition to w4ett
<MootBot> IDEA received:  vote on 2 OPs in addition to w4ett
<mac9416> second
 * galant14b nominates pace_t_zulu if he's willing
<pace_t_zulu> i think we can do this quickly
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, we'll move on to nominations next... thank ;)
 * wrst agrees with galant14b
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: sorry. i love getting ahead of the game =0P
<wrst> sorry jumped the gun with galant14b
<pace_t_zulu> [VOTE] 2 OPs in addition to w4ett in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> Please vote on:  2 OPs in addition to w4ett in #ubuntu-us-tn.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pace_t_zulu> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pace_t_zulu. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mac9416> +1
<galant14b> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mac9416. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from galant14b. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<wrst> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from wrst. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<w4ett> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from w4ett. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<linuxman410> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from linuxman410. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<pace_t_zulu> i reckon that is conclusive
<pace_t_zulu> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
 * w4ett moves we nominate at this time
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] nominations for first op
<MootBot> IDEA received:  nominations for first op
<w4ett> nominate pace_t_zulu
 * galant14b agrees. again. ;)
<pace_t_zulu> i nominate infocop411 ... he is not present right now but has usually in the channel ... he has not abused OP privileges in the past
 * wrst agree on both 
 * w4ett infocop is a good choice
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: this is true. infocop411 is a good guy
<pace_t_zulu> mac9416? linuxman410?
<pace_t_zulu> do you have any nominations?
<linuxman410> i agree on the two
<mac9416> agree on both
<pace_t_zulu> if we have only two nominations i reckon we can vote on both at once
<w4ett> ?me agrees
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu:
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] vote on pace_t_zulu and infocop411 receiving OP privileges in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> IDEA received:  vote on pace_t_zulu and infocop411 receiving OP privileges in #ubuntu-us-tn
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: if we're going to do it in all one shot, i'd also like to mention binarymutant. again, not here tonite, but i think he's just as deserving
<pace_t_zulu> ok we have a nomination for binarymutant
<pace_t_zulu> with 3 nominations i suppose this becomes a bit more complicated
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: i'll shutup now ;)
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, do you have any suggestions on how we decide this?
<mac9416> I don't know enough of any of them to have an opinion.
 * w4ett can we nominate in abstentia?
 * pace_t_zulu thinks w4ett raises a good point
<galant14b> w4ett: good point...but that knocks out two of the nominees
<wrst> w4ett: that's a good point doesn't someone have to agree to the nomination?
<pace_t_zulu> i can speak for myself here
<pace_t_zulu> if selected, i am willing to serve
<w4ett> I belive infocop agreed to op earlier in the team channel
<mac9416> I nominate pace_t_zulu, if there is a second.
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, i have no doubts that infocop has expressed desire to become op
<galant14b> well then i would suggest that we vote on pace_t_zulu and infocop for OP then
 * w4ett thinks that will count as a proxy "Yes"
<galant14b> if infocop ends up not wanting OP, we can always vote again
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, +1
<galant14b> but like pace_t_zulu said...i doubt it
<mac9416> galant14b, agreed.
<wrst> galant14b: i think that sounds good
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] vote on pace_t_zulu and infocop411 receiving OP privileges in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> IDEA received:  vote on pace_t_zulu and infocop411 receiving OP privileges in #ubuntu-us-tn
<mac9416> _1
<mac9416> +1 :-P
<pace_t_zulu> mac9416, save your vote for a moment
<pace_t_zulu> [VOTE] vote on pace_t_zulu and infocop411 receiving OP privileges in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> Please vote on:  vote on pace_t_zulu and infocop411 receiving OP privileges in #ubuntu-us-tn.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pace_t_zulu> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from pace_t_zulu. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<mac9416> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mac9416. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<galant14b> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from galant14b. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<wrst> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from wrst. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<linuxman410> +1
<w4ett> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from linuxman410. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from w4ett. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pace_t_zulu> i reckon that is conclusive
<pace_t_zulu> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 5
<pace_t_zulu> [AGREED] pace_t_zulu and infocop411 receiving OP privileges in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> AGREED received:  pace_t_zulu and infocop411 receiving OP privileges in #ubuntu-us-tn
<w4ett> That will be fixed this evening
<pace_t_zulu> [ACTION] pace_t_zulu and infocop411 receiving OP privileges in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pace_t_zulu and infocop411 receiving OP privileges in #ubuntu-us-tn
<pace_t_zulu> so i think that concludes #ubuntu-us-tn
<pace_t_zulu> i think we can turn our attention to Launchpad admin privileges
<pace_t_zulu> [TOPIC] Launchpad Adminstrators for /~tennessee.team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Launchpad Adminstrators for /~tennessee.team
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: what do Launchpad admins do exactly in this situation? I know it involves accepting new members and such, but beyond that?...
<pace_t_zulu> we already have w4ett as an administrator
<galant14b> or w4ett might be better to answer that ;)
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, could you please answer galant14b question?
<w4ett> Basically the approval of new members and copy on the launchpad page
<galant14b> w4ett: thanks. just curious.
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, so modifications to the page etc.?
<w4ett> exactly pace_t_zulu
<pace_t_zulu> so does anyone have any proposals of how we should handle this issue?
<w4ett> until the question of ownership of the team is addressed, this might be a moot point
 * galant14b points to w4ett. Do we need more than one admin?
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, can we not appoint admins without ownership
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] select new owner of /~tennessee.team on Launchpad
<MootBot> IDEA received:  select new owner of /~tennessee.team on Launchpad
<w4ett> Jono can add admins
<w4ett> I was selected that way
<pace_t_zulu> MichaelBerger has been missing for a while
<w4ett> 10 months now
<galant14b> It seems logical to me that if w4ett is founder of #ubuntu-us-tn he is also owner of the Launchpad team
<pace_t_zulu> i propose we select a new owner of the LP team
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, +1
<pace_t_zulu> i nominate w4ett as new owner of the launchpad team
 * wrst agrees with pace_t_zulu
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, would you accept ownership if selected?
<galant14b> there is no sense in spreading out "the power" as it were in such a small LoCo. given 50+ active members that might be another story
 * w4ett will serve if selected
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] vote on w4ett assuming ownership of /~tennessee.team on Launchpad
<MootBot> IDEA received:  vote on w4ett assuming ownership of /~tennessee.team on Launchpad
 * galant14b agrees
 * mac9416 agrees.
<pace_t_zulu> [VOTE] w4ett assuming ownership of /~tennessee.team on Launchpad
<MootBot> Please vote on:  w4ett assuming ownership of /~tennessee.team on Launchpad.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pace_t_zulu> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pace_t_zulu. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<mac9416> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mac9416. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<galant14b> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from galant14b. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<linuxman410> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from linuxman410. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<wrst> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from wrst. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<w4ett> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from w4ett. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pace_t_zulu> conclusive
<pace_t_zulu> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 5
<pace_t_zulu> [AGREED] w4ett assumes ownership of /~tennessee.team on Launchpad
<MootBot> AGREED received:  w4ett assumes ownership of /~tennessee.team on Launchpad
<pace_t_zulu> [ACTION] w4ett assumes ownership of /~tennessee.team on Launchpad
<MootBot> ACTION received:  w4ett assumes ownership of /~tennessee.team on Launchpad
<pace_t_zulu> ok.. those were our main topics
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] select additional admins for Launchpad /~tennessee.team at next meeting
<MootBot> IDEA received:  select additional admins for Launchpad /~tennessee.team at next meeting
<w4ett> pleia2: question
<mac9416> Someone spoke of the forums, mailing list?
<pleia2> w4ett: sure
<w4ett> mac9416: I believe the LP owner does the forum stuff too...pleia2 correct me please
<pleia2> w4ett: tideline?
<w4ett> isn't that the way it's set up?
<w4ett> yep
<pace_t_zulu> i reckon the mailing list and forums are running smoothly
<pleia2> they aren't actually linked, but yes he is an admin on both
<mac9416> OK
<pace_t_zulu> we're nearly at the hour mark here...
<pleia2> yeah, having a forums admin isn't a huge deal, LP is only important because as it stands you only have one active admin, and can't add more
<w4ett> pleia2:  very true
<mac9416> Were we to speak on events?
<pace_t_zulu> I propose we postpone the forums and mailing list for a later meeting
<w4ett> pace_t_zulu:  agreed
 * mac9416 agrees
<lifeless> pleia2: huh?
<pace_t_zulu> I think we should discuss a regular meeting time for the team
<lifeless> pleia2: lp can have a team of admins
<pleia2> lifeless: their founder is gone, only the founder can add more
<mac9416> pace_t_zulu, agreed.
<lifeless> pleia2: take a decision, ask the contact in #launchpad to change things
<pace_t_zulu> if it's ok with everyone else i propose that we establish a regular meeting time and postpone all other issues till then
<lifeless> pleia2: and you *can* in lp have multiple admins for a team or project; the former you assign permissiosn to, the latter you use a team as owner/driver
<pleia2> lifeless: that's what this whole discussion is about :)
<pleia2> yes, I know
<pace_t_zulu> [TOPIC] Regular meeting time for Tennessee LoCo
<MootBot> New Topic:  Regular meeting time for Tennessee LoCo
<lifeless> ok cool
<mac9416> What was the consensus on the forum? Bi-weekly?
<pace_t_zulu> ok so we had a poll and it seems as if there is a consensus on monthly meetings
<mac9416> OK
<pace_t_zulu> [LINK] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1145150
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1145150
<galant14b> on the topic of meeting times : is 8pm/7pm not a good time? while we have a few of us here, we're missing a few active members
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, i think it is suitable to meet outside of ordinary working hours
<wrst> galant14b: think it might be good to ask those that couldn't make it?
 * wrst agrees with pace_t_zulu
<pace_t_zulu> ie no meetings 9am-5pm on weekedays
<mac9416> I should always be good with 8/7
<wrst> but might be a day/time that works better?
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: oh i agree it needs to be outside of normal work hours for sure
<pace_t_zulu> i would say that weekends can be dodgy too
<pace_t_zulu> i for one am less able to meet on weekends...
<mac9416> Weekends are tough for me.
<mac9416> Very.
<w4ett> remember that the Real Killer is the 2 time zones we cover
<pace_t_zulu> yes
<wrst> yes
 * galant14b is flexible.
<linuxman410> i can meet any day after 6pm
<pace_t_zulu> i feel like 8pm EDT/ 7 pm CDT works well
<galant14b> I'd be happier letting you guys figure that particular detail out and i'll go with whatever you decide.
<mac9416> I'm in Central, and 7 is perfect for me.
<w4ett> 8East/7Central seems to be sufficient to let folks get home in Central time and not too late the those in the East
<pace_t_zulu> should we take a quick vote on the hours of the meeting (8/7)?
<w4ett> yes
<pace_t_zulu> then we can discuss a monthly basis on which to overlay that time...
<mac9416> I'm game
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] vote on meetings occurring at 8pm EDT / 7pm CDT on a weekday to be selected
<MootBot> IDEA received:  vote on meetings occurring at 8pm EDT / 7pm CDT on a weekday to be selected
<pace_t_zulu> sound good?
 * galant14b agrees
 * mac9416 agrees.
<wrst> yes
 * w4ett day to be determined
<pace_t_zulu> ok
<pace_t_zulu> [VOTE] Meetings will be at  8pm EDT / 7pm CDT on a weekday to be determined
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Meetings will be at  8pm EDT / 7pm CDT on a weekday to be determined.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pace_t_zulu> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pace_t_zulu. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<galant14b> +!
<linuxman410> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from linuxman410. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mac9416> +1
<galant14b> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mac9416. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from galant14b. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<w4ett> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from w4ett. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pace_t_zulu> that appears to be conclusive... wrst?
<pace_t_zulu> wrst, will you be voting on this?
<pace_t_zulu> guys, wrst went MIA in 60 seconds...
<pace_t_zulu> this vote is conclusive
<pace_t_zulu> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<w4ett> still majority
<pace_t_zulu> [AGREED] Meetings will be at  8pm EDT / 7pm CDT on a weekday to be determined
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Meetings will be at  8pm EDT / 7pm CDT on a weekday to be determined
<pace_t_zulu> [ACTION] Meetings will be at  8pm EDT / 7pm CDT on a weekday to be determined
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Meetings will be at  8pm EDT / 7pm CDT on a weekday to be determined
<pace_t_zulu> ok.. so now lets establish when in the month is suitable
<pace_t_zulu> does anyone have specific days of the week that don't work?
<mac9416> Wednesdays
<pace_t_zulu> i'd like to motion against meetings on friday
<pace_t_zulu> wednesdays don't work for mac9416
<w4ett> Tues....first week of the month
<pace_t_zulu> so we've got Mon, Tues, or Thurs
<pace_t_zulu> i'm inclined to go with w4ett on this one
<wrst> woops sorry guys i agree :) on thevote that i missed
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, do you know anything about the klug schedule? why did it the meeting fall on today?
<pace_t_zulu> wrst, no worries
<w4ett> No church activities or bowling :P
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: i'm sorry i do not. I wasn't even aware the klug existed before infocop mentioned it. I apologize
<pace_t_zulu> i know NLUG is second tuesday on each month.. so there is no conflict there
<galant14b> if you give me a second i'll google and see if i can come up with anything
<pace_t_zulu> one point i'd like to add is that someone mentioned that some members receive a monthly digest
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu:
<galant14b> When:
<galant14b> 1st Tuesday (formal) at 6:30 PM Eastern Time.
<pace_t_zulu> i'd like to point out that the first week of each month is a good idea with regards to that
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: ^^ KLUG
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, thank you
<wrst> sorry guys gotta go i shall be here whenever catch you later
<galant14b> wrst: take care
<pace_t_zulu> wrst, thanks for being here
<wrst> no prob sorry i can't stick around catch you later
 * w4ett os 8pm EDT will be ok on Tues?
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, i think so
<w4ett> *so
<galant14b> w4ett: 8pm will interfere w/ the end of the KLUG meeting most likely. that is the rason infocop is not here tonight
<galant14b> reason*
 * w4ett so moved......1st Tues of the month
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, did you attend the KLUG tonight?
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: i did not
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, but infocop did?
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, i think we need to discuss this a bit further
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: i was merely saying that for the benefit of others in the area who might want to participate in both
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, agreed
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, i'm trying to establish how long that goes
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: when we left Panera, he said he was headed to KLUG
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: infocop said it usually runs til ~8:30pm
<galant14b> EST of course
 * w4ett I need to leave for about 15 Min.
<pace_t_zulu> ok we need to move this along to come to a vote
<pace_t_zulu> i think it would be poor form to schedule on top of the KLUG meeting
<w4ett> 9/8 central then?
<galant14b> or perhaps another tuesday of the month? 3rd perhaps?
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, what about 8/7 on a thursday?
<w4ett> can do
<mac9416> pace_t_zulu, good here.
<w4ett> usually
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, what do you think about 8/7 on a thursday?
<galant14b> 1st thurs of every month is what you are proposing?
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, yes
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: fine with me
<mac9416> here too.
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] Meet at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT on the first Thursday of the month
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Meet at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT on the first Thursday of the month
<pace_t_zulu> we ready to vote on this?
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: that does not interfere with any KLUG meetings listed on their info page
 * galant14b agrees
<pace_t_zulu> works with NLUG
<pace_t_zulu> let's vote then
<pace_t_zulu> [VOTE] Meet at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT on the first Thursday of the month
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Meet at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT on the first Thursday of the month.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<galant14b> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from galant14b. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<w4ett> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from w4ett. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pace_t_zulu> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pace_t_zulu. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<linuxman410> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from linuxman410. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<mac9416> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mac9416. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<pace_t_zulu> conclusive
<pace_t_zulu> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<pace_t_zulu> [AGREED] Meet at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT on the first Thursday of the month
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Meet at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT on the first Thursday of the month
<pace_t_zulu> [ACTION] Meet at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT on the first Thursday of the month
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Meet at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT on the first Thursday of the month
<pace_t_zulu> great!
 * w4ett moves we table the social event to this Thursday's meeting
<pace_t_zulu> i think that establishes formally establishes the main issues that we needed
<pace_t_zulu> w4ett, +1
<galant14b> works for me
 * w4ett the discussion anyway :P
<pace_t_zulu> so we will be meeting Thursday in #ubuntu-us-tn
<pace_t_zulu> shall we have a quick vote on that?
<w4ett> +1
<galant14b> +1
<infocop411> hiya
<galant14b> infocop411: hey hey
 * w4ett speak of the devil
<pace_t_zulu> [IDEA] Table all outstanding items on agenda for meeting Thursday, June 4 at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Table all outstanding items on agenda for meeting Thursday, June 4 at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT in #ubuntu-us-tn
<infocop411> forgot we were in here
 * galant14b agrees
 * mac9416 agrees
<pace_t_zulu> shall we have a quick vote and conclude this meeting
<infocop411> pace_t_zulu: on what
<w4ett> second
<infocop411> ?
<pace_t_zulu> [VOTE] Table all outstanding items on agenda for meeting Thursday, June 4 at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Table all outstanding items on agenda for meeting Thursday, June 4 at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT in #ubuntu-us-tn.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 * mac9416 agrees
<pace_t_zulu> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pace_t_zulu. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<galant14b> +1
<w4ett> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from galant14b. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from w4ett. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mac9416> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mac9416. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<linuxman410> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from linuxman410. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<infocop411> +1
<pace_t_zulu> that is conclusive
<MootBot> +1 received from infocop411. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<pace_t_zulu> infocop411, we will fill you in
<infocop411> thnx
<pace_t_zulu> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<galant14b> pace_t_zulu: thanks for chairing tonight.
<pace_t_zulu> [ACTION] Table all outstanding items on agenda for meeting Thursday, June 4 at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Table all outstanding items on agenda for meeting Thursday, June 4 at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT in #ubuntu-us-tn
<pace_t_zulu> [AGREED] Table all outstanding items on agenda for meeting Thursday, June 4 at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT in #ubuntu-us-tn
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Table all outstanding items on agenda for meeting Thursday, June 4 at 8pm EDT/7pm CDT in #ubuntu-us-tn
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, you are very welcome
<pace_t_zulu> thank you everyone for atteding
<galant14b> i think we made some good progress =0]
<pace_t_zulu> galant14b, agreed
<w4ett> CU in the team channel
<pace_t_zulu> let's end this
 * galant14b out
<infocop411> galant14b: I can't get down here less than 1, 40 min it seems
<pace_t_zulu> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:19.
<galant14b> infocop411: =0\
<infocop411> traffic & construction, I'll take it to ubuntu-us-tn
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<\sh> siretart: ping fai ubuntu aufs...is the lp:~fai/fai/fai.hardy branch with the change of unionfs to aufs?
<Daviey> aufs \o/
<siretart> \sh: sorry, but I don't remember
<\sh> siretart: looks like you didn't ;)
<\sh> siretart: I'm just swearing about kernel + initramfs + udev
 * persia looks confusedly at the channel name, and wonders about -devel and -motu
<\sh> grmpf
<\sh> why is -meeting on win 1
<persia> heh :)
<ara> hola!
<heno> hey everyone!
<bittin`> Hello
<ogasawara> hi
<schwuk> hi
<schwuk> How's everyone's ubuflu?
<heno> on a slow simmer
<ogasawara> schwuk: slowly getting better
<heno> Pedro is still out with full blown Ubuflu though :(
<schwuk> ogasawara: gald to hear it :)
<schwuk> heno: :(
<Ursinha> mine is slowly getting better as well :)
<schwuk> Maybe we should have UDS branded facemasks next time :)
<fader_> Howdy
<bdmurray> Hi
<heno> hey Ursinha, welcome to our little meeting
<sbeattie> hey
 * fader_ thinks that 100L of orange juice should come standard with a UDS registration.
<sbeattie> still trying to shake mine, the plane ride home didn't help.
<Ursinha> hey heno, I didn't mean to disrupt you all :)
<sbeattie> fader_: vitamin C drinks.
<heno> no worries, we are just starting
<fader_> sbeattie: Maybe OJ with vitamin C pills ground in :)
<heno> I think cr3 might be out as well
<schwuk> heno: he's around, but was getting food
<schwuk> So might be late
<heno> ok, let's start
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:03. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<schwuk> heno: I have to duck out at around 18:40 if the meeting is still running then.
<heno> UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro
<heno> schwuk: I think it will be short
<schwuk> heno: ok
<heno> anyone else wan to comment on bug days?
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: ^?
<ogasawara> the kernel team will have another one next tues
<ogasawara> stats from the last one are at http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kernel-bugday/20090512.html
<bdmurray> There was an idea of having ones for empathy and banshee which sounded good to me
<heno> bdmurray: tomorrow or next week?
<bdmurray> They've been added to the planning list
<heno> ok
<bdmurray> I think it was the 18th and 25th
<heno> sounds good
<heno> [TOPIC] New bug control members! -- bdmurray
<MootBot> New Topic:  New bug control members! -- bdmurray
<bdmurray> We've had some upstream developers added to the bug control team recently. Some members for the DX team and a Debian developer.
<bdmurray> from the DX team
<heno> that's excellent
 * schwuk reminds bdmurray that he wanted to join bugcontrol
<bdmurray> Yes, ara reviewed the relevant documentation with the DX team
<heno> presumably they intend to focus on DX / Debian upstream bugs
<ara> yes, the dx team just want to be more responsive when triaging their own bugs
<bdmurray> That's correct
<heno> schwuk: did you apply in the standard way?
<schwuk> heno: no - I asked him at UDS.
<schwuk> I'll do it properly this time.
<bdmurray> schwuk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl
<heno> ara: I see you're having a good influence on them :)
<heno> How is plars' temporary membership working out? plars: are you re-applying for bug-control?
<bdmurray> Just including checkbox bugs would be fine
<ara> schwuk: do you promise to be polite to bug reporters? :-P
<bdmurray> plars has sent an application in and I temporarily extended his membership
<schwuk> ara: Of course!
<heno> ok, cool
<heno> [TOPIC] Fridge Calendar Entry - wrong time -- schwuk
<MootBot> New Topic:  Fridge Calendar Entry - wrong time -- schwuk
<schwuk> I was hoping jcastro or pedro would be around to help with this, but I'll take an action to get it fixed.
<heno> schwuk: thank you
<heno> [TOPIC] Specs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specs
<heno> I've started reviewing specs
<cr3> heno: I've completed about 3 specs but I have about 4 more :(
<heno> I'll go though them with people and teams on the phone first, before doing status checks in this meeting
<heno> cr3: completed drafting or implementing? :)
<cr3> heno: heh, that's flattering :) just drafting
<ara> cr3: or in production?
<heno> Some of the topics can be merged IMO
<fader_> I thought the way it worked was you write the code, then write the spec to match
<schwuk> heno: we talked about having them all complete (I assumed that meant drafted, no idea about reviewed) by the end of this week. Is that still the case?
<heno> schwuk: that's a good target, yes. I want to cut down the numbers a bit though and only draft the ones that we are likely to do
<heno> after last UDS we agreed we had done too many specs and should cut down -- this time we did about 50% more ...
<heno> simply from having two rooms
<heno> some are informational, some can be merged, some can be dropped though
<cr3> heno: we need to have a cloning session at the next uds to attend more sessions
 * cr3 volunteers to be the sheep
<ara> how many people think that there were too many sessions?
<ara> o/
<ara> mmm, just me, apparently :)
<heno> I would have liked to attend a greater variety
<fader_> ara: It was overwhelming but I have no basis for comparison as this was my first UDS
<cr3> ara: I found that the number of sessions was quite reflective of the intensity of the distribution. I missed a few sessions I wanted to attend but I listened to the audio recording
<heno> but that's the curse of being a track lead
<schwuk> ara: +1
<heno> other questions about specs or UDS?
<bdmurray> I've one about a specific spec - the increase apport coverage one
<heno> bdmurray: ok, go
 * ara added a hook to notify-osd that landed today in karmic
 * bdmurray claps
<sbeattie> ara: woo!
<bdmurray> So I believe mdz was interested in finding out what packages the most recent 1000 bugs were filed about and then what the top 80% in terms of volume was.  Does that sound right?
<heno> notes say both 80% and 50%
<ara> bdmurray: I would add: and they have more than x bugs
<heno> but it's not quite clear to me how those are used differently
<bdmurray> Okay, the point being the numbers are rather surprising - http://pastebin.osuosl.org/26627
 * ara looks
<bdmurray> The packages are all over the place and the volume per package is quite low
<heno> bdmurray: I would suggest you just start poking at the data and put together a review that seems sensible to you
<bdmurray> Right sbeattie mentioned trying it with main only which is interesting too, but things still drop off rapidly.
<heno> wow, I didn't expect it to be that broad
<bdmurray> So I was wondering if there were any other bright ideas.
<bdmurray> main at http://pastebin.osuosl.org/26636
<sbeattie> how deep would we have to go to cover say 50% of the bugs filed in that list?
<heno> look at the bugs (from the 1000) with the highest gravity and take packages from those?
<bdmurray> deep in terms of number of packages?
<sbeattie> yes, deep into the list in terms of number of packages.
<bdmurray> heno: like an average bug gravity for a package?  I'd thought about finding that out a wee bit ago
<heno> thinking that an X bug might have greater impact and attract more activity than a LyX bug, say
<heno> bdmurray: that would be cool, yes
<cr3> from looking at the list of packages, it seems that the bugs for the packages at the bottom of the list seem easier to address than those at the top
<cr3> are we mostly looking to address the most number of bugs or the ones with the most impact?
<heno> cr3: address as in fix or write apport hooks for?
<bdmurray> The goal is to find which packages an apport-hook would benefit us the most
<cr3> heno: fix bugs. as for apport hooks, my observation is the opposite and I think the ones at the top would actually be easier to add apport hooks and would seem to have the most impact
<ara> bdmurray: incomplete bugs per package
<ara> bdmurray: if a package has a lot of incomplete bugs, it is maybe the same information is always needed by devs
<cr3> bdmurray: sorry, my observation was a bit off topic but I found it interesting enough to share :)
<bdmurray> ara: that's a great idea!
<bdmurray> Okay, I think I've a couple of different things to investigate
<heno> that's a good idea, ara
<heno> any other meeting topics?
<sbeattie> BTW, one minor thing, I'm going to make the apport-in-server spec a dependency of the broader wider-apport-coverage spec.
<sbeattie> since it seems to me to be a subtopic.
<sbeattie> unless anyone objects, that is.
<cr3> sbeattie: how do you run apport on server since it doesn't have a browser?
<bdmurray> There was some discussion on the bugsquad mailing list regarding 'regression-potential' and 'default-application' bug tags for the chaning of a default application for a task.
<cr3> sbeattie: err, or is that what the apport-in-server spec is for? :)
<sbeattie> cr3: w3m is quite an effective browser, thank you very much. and you can save the report and file it from another machine.
<sbeattie> :-)
<heno> sbeattie: could just as well depend on the extend apport adoption spec
<sbeattie> heno: err, yes, that's what I meant.
<cr3> sbeattie: thanks, I need to have a look at LP with w3m
<heno> sbeattie: ok, I'm happy then :)
<sbeattie> cr3: make sure to use w3m-img as well. :-)
<heno> bdmurray: can you expand on that?
<heno> as in is there a question we should address in the meeting?
<bdmurray> heno: If banshee is missing a feature that rhythmbox is one would tag the bug regression-potential and default-application.
<bdmurray> Nope, no question just an announcement.
<heno> bdmurray: ok, thanks. so agreement was reached on the list?
<cr3> sbeattie: strange how I see this comment in the apport source: w3m, lynx: do not work
 * schwuk ducks out
<bdmurray> heno: oh, looking at the latest mail in the thread maybe not
<sbeattie> cr3: interesting. I'm pretty certain I've filed a bug with w3m, but it bears revisiting.
<cr3> sbeattie: it might be already fixed in karmic, don't take my word for it, I'm just being overly curious
<heno> we may end up very many regression-tagged bugs
<heno> would this be a topic for a bugsquad meeting
<heno> or is it best settled on the ML?
<bdmurray> Yes, there is debate about whether or not switching the default application could really cause a regression.
<bdmurray> Or whether the regression is of the same importance as regression-regression. ;-)
<heno> indeed
<heno> let's let the ML thread decide
<heno> and let's wrap up here
<sbeattie> I think we wanted to capture those in the regression-* tags so that they could be included for release-note nominations.
 * sbeattie will comment on the thread.
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:42.
<ara> thanks everybody!
<bdmurray> sbeattie: negated tag searching should be available real soon now as I understand it
<bdmurray> at least via the API which I thought might help
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-04
 * MaWaLe is away: brb
 * MaWaLe is back (gone 00:01:34)
<pan1nx> wasn't there supposed to be ubuntu-mobile meeting?
<pan1nx> hu, June 4, 12:00 â 13:00
<pan1nx> Description * Location: IRC channel #ubuntu-meeting * Agenda: None listed as of publication
<ogra> wrong timing :)
<ogra> 21:00 UTC
<pan1nx> But the fridge sais something else
<pan1nx> ogra: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar
<ogra> so the fridge is obviously wrong
<pan1nx> m'key...so we/someone should change that?
<pan1nx> persia?
<persia> Someone should definitely change that.
<cody-somerville> What should it be?
<ogra> 21:00 UTC
<cody-somerville> Is it correct now?
<ogra> yep, thanks cody-somerville
<persia> cody-somerville, That looks great.  Thanks.
<cody-somerville> I've updated all the events in the series so it should be fixed retroactively as well as for all future occurrences.
<persia> cody-somerville, Is that on the base calendar, or from an invite?
<cody-somerville> Its actually on the fridge calendar.
<persia> Also, "fixed" retroactively might be a bit misleading.  For a long time, 12:00 UTC was the correct time.
<persia> (not that it ought matter for the future)
<cody-somerville> oops
<cody-somerville> persia, Do you want me to transfer ownership of the event series to yourself?
<persia> Um, no.  While I know a bunch about it, I'm unsure I understand how to maintain it.
<persia> 21:00 UTC should be stable for at least several months to come (12:00 UTC lasted about 16 months).
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> argh, wrong time
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:00.
<davidm> hi ogra
<ogra> hey
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090604
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090604
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<NCommander> alright, who's here?
<plars> o/
<davidm> I am
 * ogra waves
<lool> I'm here too; albeit I found my desktop crashed again
<ogra> same here
 * ogra is working from an old celeron cmpc 
 * NCommander notes his laptop been unstable, so if I go silent, it usually means my laptop is rebooting
<NCommander> I'm going to reinstall it tonight; I just finished backing up everything important :-)
<ogra> semms i was to brave with the new intel driver :)
 * NCommander will be setting his laptop to use the NVIDIA one until he's sure the intel one is more stable :-)
<ogra> you should work from your babbage ;) its stable
<NCommander> paulliu is MIA
<ogra> bad time for him
<NCommander> ogra, I don't have an external monitor or keyboard here
<NCommander> ogra, so is persia and StevenK, should I proceed or wait?
<NCommander> (and dyfet)
<dyfet> here :)
<NCommander> Never mind on that last bit :-)
<davidm> it's an ugly time in Taiwan right now.
<NCommander> hi StevenK
<NCommander> davidm, indeed, and I suspect chaos would ensure if we attempted to float the IRC meeting
<ogra> davidm, well, .au or .jp isnt much better
<davidm> just slightly I agree
 * StevenK looks for the matchsticks to hold his eyes open
 * NCommander hooks a coffee IV into StevenK's arm
<StevenK> Ewww, coffee
<NCommander> StevenK, how about caffienated vegemite :-)
<davidm> StevenK, just stick them under your fingernails you'll stay away then with NP
<ogra> hey you dont have to drink it that way :)
<StevenK> NCommander: I don't think I want my Vegemite tainted with additives
<NCommander> StevenK, meh. I still can't find it in NYC, although I did find a store that sells Marmite, but anyway, I think we need to start now
<StevenK> That doesn't sound right.
<StevenK> NYC is well, New York. *Somewhere* has to
<NCommander> StevenK, the person I talked to said he knew a place in NJ that has it
<ogra> NCommander, can you put the regular babbage update back on the roadmap ?
<NCommander> ogra, oh, sure
<ogra> i think its worth having it
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] #
<NCommander> NCommander to investigate https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vnc4/+bug/338148 (co)
<MootBot> New Topic:  #
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 338148 in vnc4 "Needs new version from Debian: fails to build with removal of mesa-swx11-source" [High,Triaged]
 * NCommander sighs
<NCommander> Still c/o
<ogra> well, probably karmic helps :)
<ogra> (if the buildds work again)
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander and GrueMaster to debug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander and GrueMaster to debug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/337809
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 337809 in linux "APIC error on CPU 0" [Medium,Triaged]
<NCommander> THat's still a c/o
<GrueMaster> rgr that
<NCommander> and I don't think we need to care about the lpia configuration item
<NCommander> [topic] Roadmap Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Roadmap Review
<NCommander> [topic] Babbage Status for Karmic (ogra)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Babbage Status for Karmic (ogra)
<ogra> no kernel before A3 i was told
<NCommander> ogra, do we at least have kernel sources this time around?
<ogra> beyond that i have a karmic rootfs running on my B2
<ogra> according to amit we do
<ogra> but same issue as last time
<ogra> 30M tarball and he has to cherrypick
<NCommander> ow
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> brb, something is burning
<ogra> there goes the fireman ...
<st33med> The roof is on fire!
<st33med> The roof is on fire!
<st33med> Raise the roof!
<st33med> Raise the roof!
<st33med> :)
<dyfet> hopefully not his babbage bd...
<lool> dyfet: Mind picking up the chair?
<ogra> well, he wont need the B1 anymore ... apart from possible jaunty stuff
<NCommander> back
<NCommander> I'm just going to hope that smell is from outside.
<dyfet> okay....
<NCommander> ogra, my B1s are in Rochester ATM actually :-/
<ogra> ok, re-> B2 ... i tested the audio bits with the 2.6.26 kernel
<ogra> there seems to be a HW issue when playing back music ...
<ogra> not sure its caused by the driver so i'll wait for our own kernel, but playback only works for a certain amount of time until odd sounds come up
<NCommander> ogra, with raw ALSA or pulse running?
<ogra> we also have no driver for the DVI port
<ogra> with either
<ogra> there is a GL driver thats supposed to work which i couldnt test yet
<ogra> we'll also need to repackage that, its not poroperly packaged (GL libs replacing mesa etc)
<plars> ogra: is that related to bug #358851
<ubottu> Bug 358851 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/358851 is private
<ogra> nspoluginwrapper ?
<ogra> no, i was using rhytmbox and totem ...
<NCommander> plars, nspluginwrapper won't work on ARM unless they hooked up an extreme scary QEMU hack
<plars> sorry, bug #358831
<NCommander> *extremely
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 358831 in pulseaudio "[ARM] Pulse Audio eating up to much CPU" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/358831
<GrueMaster> wow. I can't even access that bug.
 * plars can't type today :)
<NCommander> GrueMaster, you aren't in ubuntu-bugsquad?
<ogra> if you play back any audio file after about a munite a tick sound appears
<NCommander> ogra, were you using pulse?
<ogra> the ticking frequency raises over time
<GrueMaster> I thought I was.
<ogra> both, with gstreamer wset to alsa or pulse
<ogra> mist be a codec, driver or hardware issue
<ogra> it sounds like a scratched CD
<ogra> just that the frequency raises ... after some mins its not bearable anymore
<ogra> and its reliably reproducable
<NCommander> That sounds like a Babbage 2 issue. I don't remember encountering that on the B1, but I can retest that once I go home
<NCommander> (hopefully this weekend)
<ogra> lets wait for our own kernel, it might be the alsa driver in the 2.6.26 kernel
<NCommander> So what action items do we want to take from this?
<GrueMaster> 2.6.26 has a really old alsa.  Could be the issue.
<ogra> its just something i tested this week, no need to discuss it in depth
<ogra> i'm happy to report that we have images btw :)
<NCommander> ogra, the live images work?
<NCommander> woo!
<GrueMaster> yea.
<ogra> they might take 1h to boot but we have some
<NCommander> ogra, is there an open bug on the boot time?
<ogra> unionfs/fuse is extremely slow in karmic
<NCommander> s/in karmic//g
<NCommander> Fixed that for you :-P
<ogra> cjwatson knows about it and i think the general plan is to wait for mount --union instead of fixing unionfs-fuse
<ogra> NCommander, it was ok speedwise in jaunty
<ogra> (not great but ok)
<ogra> now its really really slow
<ogra> well, thats about the babbage status ...
<ogra> feel free to move on :)
<NCommander> [topic] Specification Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Specification Review
<NCommander> I think we should save drafting the new roadmap until next week incase we still have unwritten specifications.
<StevenK> Agreed
 * ogra has still a lot
<StevenK> Naughty ogra
<StevenK> But I can't talk
<ogra> :0
<ogra> :)
 * NCommander grumbles
<NCommander> Oh well
<davidm> Need to crank on the spec 's
<NCommander> "All specifications from UDS to be considered for karmic must be drafted for next meeting to be included on the roadmap" - does that sound about right?
<ogra> yup
<davidm> yup
<NCommander> [action] All specifications from UDS to be considered for karmic must be drafted for next meeting to be included on the roadmap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  All specifications from UDS to be considered for karmic must be drafted for next meeting to be included on the roadmap
<NCommander> There :-)
<NCommander> There been no status changes in any bugs we are tracking, I don't think we need to go over them
<NCommander> Anyone have any bugs we want to add to the roadmap?
<lool> There are a couple from ARM
<lool> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gcc-4.3/+bug/347864
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 347864 in gcc-4.4 "GCC generates invalid instructions when building for Thumb-2 on armel" [Undecided,Fix released]
<lool> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/ffmpeg/+bug/383240
<ogra> yeah loic spammed my inbox yesterday :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 383240 in ffmpeg "Integrate and enable ARMv5TE/v6/VFP and NEON optimisations from ffmpeg trunk for armel" [Undecided,New]
 * NCommander hasn't even dealt with the backup of LP spam :-/
<lool> In general, there are other interesting bugs to work on
 * ogra has inbox zero at least once a day 
<NCommander> lool, are we tagging bugs from ARM?
<lool> The thunderbird crash 340595
<ogra> yeah
<lool> And gnome-keyring's -O1 has been dropped, so it should bug again
<ogra> davidm bumped the retracer RT for that
<NCommander> ogra, my inbox broke 2000 emails during the last two days of UDS, its down to about 400 now.
<NCommander> ogra, I can retrace it manually if its not been resolved by weeks end, I don't want that to be a blocker
<ogra> so we should get proper arm retracers soon i hope
<NCommander> ogra, well, the ARM retracer is setup on rimu, the problem just a firewall issue; I had pitti setup the retracers on all architectures awhile ago
<ogra> NCommander, its more important that apport works imho, butr feel free to attack the TB bug
<NCommander> TB?
<StevenK> Thunderbird
<ogra> thunderbird
<NCommander> Bug #340595
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 340595 in thunderbird "thunderbird-bin failed to start: burned lots of CPU crashed with SIGSEGV" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340595
<StevenK> Not tuberculosis
<ogra> *grin*
<NCommander> StevenK, actually, I was thinking technical board :-P
<StevenK> TB is also 'Terabyte'
<ogra> *not* tebibyte :P
<NCommander> We had thunderbird issues in jaunty with just getting that beast to compile
<NCommander> :-/
<ogra> (one of the maikl threads i really dont need)
<ogra> well, involve asac, he might be able to help
<ogra> or anyone else from the mizilla team
<NCommander> ogra, we still need decent backtraces first :-)
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> I don't think I saw an answer; is there a tag we want to be tracking beside the normal arm/armel ones?
<ogra> no, the two suffice imho
<NCommander> Ok
<ogra> bad enough that we have two
<lool> I think it's nice to tag, but what matters is who is subscribed/assigned
<davidm> We need to document the tag on the wiki
<lool> We should be in charge of the @canonical-mobile bugs
<NCommander> lool, if we have a consistant tag, I'll make a note to check it when I make new meeting pages.
<davidm> s/tag/tags/
<ogra> we really should unify on one
<NCommander> lool, or should I say a high-priority tag
<plars> we just need to agree on which it should be, if we pick arm over armel though, apport will have to be fixed to deal with it
<lool> We have priorities on the bugs
<lool> I like the way the desktop team handles bugs
<NCommander> I think we need to go with armel, its the actual architecture flag
<ogra> right, i'm all for armel
<lool> They use priorities, milestones, and assignments
<ogra> lool, dont we too ?
<NCommander> And if we ever need to target big-endian arm hardware, then we'll have armeb
<lool> I don't mind tagging bugs related to arm "arm" or "armel", but that doesn't commit us from dealing with them
<plars> I can convert all the arm to armel if needed
<lool> armel might be a better choice then; it's what apport adds by default
<ogra> lool, i'd personally like to have only one tag
<NCommander> Is there a way we could get some sorta armel report on people?
<lool> ogra: I agree
<lool> There are TWO discussions going on here
<plars> NCommander: such as?
<lool> One about looking for work items, which shouldn't be tracked by tags
<lool> And another about how to tag arm specific issues
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> Ok
<NCommander> [topic] How to tag arm specific issues
<MootBot> New Topic:  How to tag arm specific issues
<lool> I think everybody agrees with tagging ARM issues "armel" and only that; not "arm"
<ogra> NCommander, please sort :)
<NCommander> Lets take care of this one first, I think its the easier one :-)
<plars> I can generate reports based on tags if that's what you're looking for
<lool> plars: Not really
<ogra> ++ for armel only
<NCommander> +1 on armel as well
<plars> +1 armel
<lool> plars: It's just an interesting piece of info which we should try to keep, but what matters to us is not the fact that it's ARM specific or not, just whether it's important, and on our plate
<ogra> sounds like we all agree on armel ...
<ogra> or most of us at least
<davidm> +1 from me too
<lool> So the other topic is gathering bugs which should be on our radar
<ogra> NCommander, ?
<NCommander> Who wants the action item on this? (which I'm not 100% sure it should be)
<lool> I don't know whether people are aware of the nice tool which rickspencer3 wrote for the desktop team's bugs
 * ogra is i was in the talk :)
<NCommander> I wasn't, is there a link on what this tool was?
<ogra> we should use it
<lool> NCommander: He said he'd publish it, but I don't know whether he did and am not aware where it is publicly available
<ogra> it is on LP
<ogra> i'll ask him about it if he's back from holiday
<ogra> action that for me
<NCommander> Ah, its pm-dashboard
<NCommander> [action] ogra to investigate pm-dashboard
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to investigate pm-dashboard
<ogra> thanks
<plars> https://launchpad.net/pm-dashboard
<StevenK> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~rick-rickspencer3/pm-dashboard/trunk
<NCommander> [topic] Looking for Work items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Looking for Work items
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> Ok, so on this topic now
<lool> ( https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~rick-rickspencer3/pm-dashboard/trunk )
<NCommander> lool, you were saying?
<StevenK> I beat lool finding something on LP? O.o
<NCommander> [link] https://launchpad.net/pm-dashboard
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/pm-dashboard
<lool> I was saying that I prefer using some team to put bugs on our radar
<NCommander> [link] https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~rick-rickspencer3/pm-dashboard/trunk
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~rick-rickspencer3/pm-dashboard/trunk
<lool> StevenK: Actually I got it from rick :)
<cjwatson> ogra: actually the speed was fine once I remembered to allocate 256MB of memory rather than kvm's default 128MB
<lool> see #ubuntu-desktop
<cjwatson> (unionfs-fuse live CDs)
<ogra> cjwatson, my ltsp tests today got me 4minute boots for just bringing up X
<NCommander> BTW, screenshot of pm-dashboard https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RickSpencer?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=pm-dashboard.png
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RickSpencer?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=pm-dashboard.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RickSpencer?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=pm-dashboard.png
<ogra> cjwatson, vs 30sec boots to login window in jaunty
<lool> plars: Did you have any QA specific conversations around best usage?
<cjwatson> ogra: ah, you have a worse problem than I do then. Anyway, didn't mean to interrupt ...
<plars> lool: best usage of?
<lool> I would say: subscribe canonical-mobile to get it on the radar of people in the canonical mobile team and assign it when it's in their reponsability to fix
<ogra> lool, canoical-mobile or ubuntu-mobile ?
<NCommander> lool, only partner's will likely do that; any bug reports from our user base will either put ubuntu-mobile, or not put it at all.
<lool> plars: We want a good bug workflow; so far, it has wild and handled differently from person to person
<plars> lool: ah, qa process stuff, yes
<NCommander> I think we should discuss lool's idea on assigning this task
<lool> ogra: I think ~ubuntu-mobile is conflated and canonical-mobile is clearly defined; I've seen some canonical teams use canonical-$team
<NCommander> lool, I think using canonical-mobile is the wrong thing to do, since it suggests removing non-canonical involvement in the ARM port
<lool> Why so?
<ogra> NCommander, pretty moot point with the set of HW we'll support in karmic
<NCommander> ogra, I'm worried on setting a president
<ogra> there is no community to test the arm fixes we do
<lool> NCommander: I think it's fine if other people join and help; they can assign themselves to bugs or subscribe themselves too
<NCommander> lool, I get a bad feeling by using canonical-mobile vs. a non-canonical team. It basically says the ARM port will only be handled by Canonical folks.
<StevenK> No it doesn't.
<StevenK> It says this bug will
<ogra> well, we will only support HW nobody else has
<ogra> where should a community come from to help or test
<NCommander> I'll give the point, but I think this is an issue we may want to rediscuss in the future.
<lool> I don't think it's exclusive to say canonical-mobile has interest in a bug when the team is subscribed to it; the only thing which might be exclusive is the assignee
<plars> why not canonical-arm?
 * NCommander forgot we had canonical-arm
<plars> for just the arm specific ones
<lool> plars: canonical-$team matches real canonical teams rather than people working on specific projects
<ogra> feel free to subscribe both teams
<NCommander> ogra, I think this is for bug assignments, not subscription.
<lool> There were arguments against creating an ubuntu-arm in the past (ML and team); I personally wouldn't object to that in general, but I would like to stop proliferation
<ogra> NCommander, subscription
<ogra> assignment should still be to specific people
 * NCommander notes the kernel team uses assignments
<NCommander> We're running out of time, do we want to save this issue for next meeting?
<lool> So we have this mass of bugs from which we're going to extract a subset where a) canonical is genuinously interested in fixing for business reasons b) canonical is interested because of general maintenance of the port
<plars> assignment implies that the individual is actively working on the bug
<NCommander> I think having a clear policy on handling ARM bugs is a good idea
<lool> plars: Or has responsability to fix it
<NCommander> I'm going to call time on this issue, and put it in the agenda for next week.
<NCommander> [action] Management of ARM bugs to continue next week
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Management of ARM bugs to continue next week
<NCommander> [topic] Any other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
<plars> NCommander: I'd like to not limit it to just arm bugs, but all bugs we care about
<NCommander> [action] Management of Mobile Team Bugs to continue next week
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Management of Mobile Team Bugs to continue next week
<NCommander> plars, good idea.
<plars> thanks :)
<NCommander> actually
<NCommander> If anyone has a good proposal for how to handle this, please send it to my canonical email address, and we'll iterate in turn on each one, as well as keep discussion open
<plars> doh... only I won't be able to make the meeting next week
<lool> plars: I agree, I don't think the discussion needs to be ARM specific
<NCommander> plars, see above :-)
<plars> ok
<NCommander> I just have concerns on cramming everything in especially with roadmap construction next session.
<ogra> plars, what, no multitasking ? :)
<plars> ogra: only if I can connect to irc from a plane
<ogra> heh
 * ogra wasnt serious
<plars> :)
<NCommander> plars, Delta been rolling out wifi on their flights :-)
<ogra> though lufthansa has wlan in their first vclass since years
<NCommander> [action] Any member who would like to make a proposal for handling of bugs, please send it to NCommander's email, to be discussed and summarized during the next IRC meeting.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Any member who would like to make a proposal for handling of bugs, please send it to NCommander's email, to be discussed and summarized during the next IRC meeting.
<ogra> 3mins ...
<NCommander> actually
<NCommander> Who's going to be here next week?
 * NCommander wonders if there are enough people to warrant a meeting and roadmap construction
 * ogra is
 * NCommander is
<davidm> I might be depending on connectivity
<NCommander> davidm, do you want me to proceed with roadmap construction (pending your final approval) if your not?
 * StevenK is
<dyfet> what happens next week? :)
<davidm> HAve meetings next week however and they could overrun this timeslot
<ogra> on site visit
<davidm> NCommander, sure
<dyfet> ogra: ah...
<NCommander> davidm, *nods*
<ogra> yeah, we need to get the rodmap together
<NCommander> Ok, so we'll have our meeting as planned. Hopefully with everyone here :-)
<GrueMaster> I will depending on how my desktop rebuild goes.
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:00.
<NCommander> Cya next week :-)
<ogra> bye
<lool> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-06-05
<gnomefreak> does PPA use the same buildds that ubuntu archives use?
<persia> gnomefreak, I think not from https://launchpad.net/builders/ but you can get a more detailed answer in #launchpad.
<gnomefreak> damn wwring channel
<gnomefreak> thanks persia
<gavin___> hi, is this the place to complain about code of conduct on planetubuntu?
<cody-somerville> gavin___, Probably not.
<cody-somerville> gavin___, Whats your issue?
<gavin___> Guy Van Sanden's recent blog posts attacking mono have all been aimed at hurting the reputation of mono and it's developers
<gavin___> his most recent claims that mono developers are attacking him
<gavin___> but in reality, it's him attacking mono devs
<gavin___> I believe this goes against your code of conduct
<gavin___> I ask that some authority speak with him and ask that he stop
<gavin___> or, if worst comes to worst, remove him from the rss feed
<cody-somerville> gavin___, It doesn't appear that he is doing anything wrong.
<gavin___> he is making false accusations
<gavin___> that is pretty uncool
<cody-somerville> I don't see where he is making false accusations.
<gavin___> "each and every time the mono camp has responded with screaming and insults"
<gavin___> that is a bold faced lie
<gavin___> the "mono camp" has never responded to him
<cody-somerville> This sounds like a personal issue.
<cody-somerville> If you're not happy with something he has said, I would recommend you approach himself yourself via e-mail or some other means and express your opinion.
<gavin___> I doubt he would be willing to discuss this rationally, it's obvious from his posts that he is out to hurt our reputations
<gavin___> he wants mono out of ubuntu and he has made it abundantly clear that he is willing to stoop to any level to hurt mono in any way that he can
<gavin___> I am not opposed to rational debate, but these attacks are not rational
<Hobbsee> that would be something you'd need to take up with the CC, to get him removed from planet, but it woudl be advised you take it up with him first.
<gavin___> all I'm asking is that someone ask him to tone it down/stop/whatever.
<gavin___> I'm not necessarily asking that he get removed from the planet
 * elky checks the meeting timetable...
<gavin___> I'm sure he's there because he's a contributor
<cody-somerville> gavin___, That someone would need to be you.
<gavin___> cody: I would if I suspected there was any chance at all that he'd even listen to me
 * ziroday remembers something about you don't know if you don't try
<gavin___> I've tried talking sense to people like him in the past, and all it got me was personal attacks
<cody-somerville> gavin___, People "like" him?
<gavin___> yea, the Roy Schestowitz Brigade
<cody-somerville> gavin___, If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the issue isn't one sided.
<gavin___> I have not made any eprsonal attacks nor have I plastered anything across the internet
<gavin___> so while our opinions do differ, I have not tried to ruin his projects reputations or anything else
 * popey tires of the mono argument :(
<gavin___> in any case, I respect your suggestions but I think if that's all you can offer I'll just continue ignoring the trolls
<gavin___> and hope they eventually go away
<gavin___> popey: as do I :(
<popey> gavin___: I'd honestly bring this up with the cc
<popey> get clarification
<gavin___> how do I contact the cc?
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil
<popey> either mail them direct, or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda add an item for the next meeting, and attend and put your case
<gavin___> oh, heh, that's the page that sent me here :p
<cody-somerville> I think you have the wrong attitude gavin___. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone a troll.
<gavin___> cody: no, you misunderstand me
<gavin___> disagreeing is fine
<gavin___> badmouthing mono over misinformation and then saying the mono project devs/contribs are attacking him is just an outright lie
<gavin___> aimed at hurting our reputations
<gavin___> this is unfair
<gavin___> and that is what I'm here about, not a disagreement of opinion
<popey> here isnt the right place I'm afraid gavin___
<james_w> well, it isn't when there isn't a CC meeting in progress at least
<popey> here is where we have meetings, nothing much else happens outside those hours, and no real note will be taken of what you've said here now because a meeting isnt in progress
<gavin___> popey, nod, understood - I misunderstood the wiki page (which I thought said to come here)
<popey> gavin___: easily done
<popey> james_w: too quick for me ;)
<james_w> gavin___: I didn't read the posts as saying the "mono project devs/contribs are attacking him"
<cody-somerville> Neither did I
<gavin___> james_w, well, if he didn't mean us, then I don't know who he's talking about
<james_w> for instance he said "the Mono camp"
<james_w> anyone "pro-mono", whether you want them on your side or not
<gavin___> who does that refer to if not us?
<gavin___> ok, well, then he needs to change his language because it seems to me an attempt to attack Mono's reputation
<james_w> in a similar vein to the way you just said "like" Roy, even though someone can have an unfavourable opinion of mono and still think that particular project is outrageous
<popey> unfortunately people feel very passionately about this
<gavin___> james_w, touche
<james_w> I agree that he could be more clear that he is being attacked by just some crazy internet people who argue for mono, rather than by the mono project and its useful contributors
<cody-somerville> gavin___, I don't think he needs to change his language. He disagrees/has concerns with the licensing of the Mono technology. He is welcome to express that regardless if it puts Mono in a poor light or not.
<james_w> but it's not just mono that suffers from that particular issue
<cody-somerville> gavin___, Ubuntu is a great OS but it has its dark spots too. If someone were to choose to discuss them, I couldn't claim they were trying to ruin the reputation of Ubuntu if they were simply being truthful.
<gavin___> cody-somerville, note that I am not here about the licensing concerns, but about his language
<gavin___> and his approach (which is very flametastic)
<popey> arguably it's just opinionated
<cody-somerville> gavin___, Its inflaming for you because *you* disagree with his opinion.
<gavin___> not at all
<gavin___> for example, there was an article a while back by I think ti was Bruce Byfield, who criticized Mono's licensing
<gavin___> but did it in such as it was not offending
<gavin___> nor flamey
<bazhang> is this on topic here?
<cody-somerville> Absolutely.
<bazhang> no scheduled meeting even
<cody-somerville> That isn't a prerequisite to have a discussion in this channel when it isn't being used by a party that has scheduled it
<cody-somerville> gavin___, I think thats dangerous grounds to try and get into - moderating content based on the possibility it might upset someone.
<gavin___> if this was the first flametastic post by him, I wouldn't be here :)
<gavin___> but it's the 4th or 5th
<cody-somerville> gavin___, I think you just need to get some thicker skin. :)
<cody-somerville> gavin___, Stop reading his posts if need be
<gavin___> in any case, like you or james stated, perhaps I am reading too much into it because I am a mono contributor
<elky> this is not a productive discussion, and would be better served by an email to the Community Council.
<popey> gavin___: or write opposing coherent blog posts?
<pitti> hello
<cody-somerville> Good idea popey
<heno> hey
<gavin___> popey: I'm not an ubuntu contributor and even if I were, I'd rather not turn planet ubuntu into a flamefest
<james_w> gavin___: there's a scheduled meeting starting now, I suggest that you email the CC if you still feel you want to raise the issue
<gavin___> ok, well thanks for your time
<popey> gavin___: "Community Council List" <community-council@lists.ubuntu.com>,
<cody-somerville> gavin___, Don't let people get to you if you think what you're doing is right ;)
<gavin___> cody: thanks :)
 * slangasek waves
 * rickspencer3 wave
 * robbiew gives a fist-to-chest pound :P
<slangasek> pgraner, pitti, Riddell, heno, sbeattie, Hobbsee, ScottK: ping
 * pitti says "hello" again
<cjwatson> hi
<pgraner> slangasek: here
<heno> hi slangasek
<slangasek> pitti: oh, yes - sorry, lost you amid another meeting :)
<slangasek> ok, as this was short notice anyway, let's not idle too long waiting for others to show up; if folks aren't here, we'll fill in the missing pieces later
<Riddell> hello
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-05 agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-06-05 agenda
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
<heno> Hi
<heno> We have laid out our Karmic road map from the UDS talks
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RoadMap
<slangasek> great :)
<heno> Some cert test are running http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current
<heno> but I don't have a detailed report as fader is on leave today
<slangasek> [LINK] http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current cert tests for karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~fader/hw-testing/current cert tests for karmic
<heno> sbeattie: can you comment on the state of regressions?
<slangasek> that they're happening at all this early is welcome news, IMHO
<heno> right, we'll just keep the running from here on is the plan
<slangasek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential lists only a few bugs filed so far as karmic regressions
<slangasek> half of them by me, I think :)
<slangasek> not too early in the cycle for using that tag...
<heno> and will expand cover to Live CDs, upgrades and more VMs this cycle
<slangasek> (and LP's new UI changes make it easier than ever, yay!)
<slangasek> is everyone over jet lag and ready for alpha-2 candidate testing next week?
<pitti> yay!
<ttx> \o/
<pitti> especially since cjwatson heroically fixed the desktop CDs
<rickspencer3> yes!
<pitti> this morning I did some downsizing of the Ubuntu CDs
<slangasek> heno: anything else that needs discussing?
<pitti> now if only the buildds would work :)
<heno> slangasek: no, that's it thanks
<slangasek> ok, thank you :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop
<slangasek> pitti, rickspencer3: how goes it?
<pitti> I summarized the current karmic plan on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<rickspencer3> of course pitti has crafted a great overview of our plans post-UDS
<pitti> we have one a2 RC bug, which has a workaround and Riddell will work on it
<pitti> karmic will be a fun cycle, desktop-wise
<pitti> changing half of the system
<pitti> specs are still drafting, so some bits might get dropped
<slangasek> wow, banshee by default?  doesn't that bring in half of mono again?
<pitti> that's one of the less firm changes yet :)
<slangasek> (we can take that offline, anyway :)
<pitti> (pending drafting, approval, etc.)
<pitti> there's also concerns about memory usage
<slangasek> heh, "Halsectomy"
<pitti> my current main activity, yes
<pitti> making good progress, and earning some credits upstream ;)
<slangasek> where do acpi events land on that roadmap?
<slangasek> (hint killing acpi-support hint)
<pitti> "input events FTW"
<pitti> i. e. they should all be converted to proper input events in the kernel
<pitti> and I guess most of them are now
<slangasek> ah, yes
<pitti> it's just tricky to verify without the hw
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> no other questions from me at this point; anyone else have questions about the Desktop roadmap?
<slangasek> pitti: or any other concerns you want to highlight?
<pitti> not right now
<pitti> once we flip on KMS by default, we need lots of testing
<pitti> but that will be properly announced
<rickspencer3> in terms of bluetooth ...
<rickspencer3> there's kind of split non-ownership of the whole space right now
 * robbiew runs away
<rickspencer3> neither the desktop team or the foundations team has the resources to fully drive it
<slangasek> ah; asac is drafting the spec though?
<rickspencer3> I think he's set as drafter now, yes
<rickspencer3> but I don't think he has the time to fully own it
<robbiew> slangasek: but there are clearly non-desktop components to bluetooth
<slangasek> do we have someone in the community who could own it instead?  superm1 has been very good about bluetooth fixes generally
<robbiew> superm1 was willing to help
<slangasek> robbiew: sure, the kernel bits ;)
<robbiew> heh
<rickspencer3> yes, I think he is interested in doing that
 * slangasek passes that buck right on down
<robbiew> foundations = the bridge between desktop and kernel..where the bucks pass by :P
<rickspencer3> slangasek: no action needed right now, but I thought you should be aware of the status
<rickspencer3> (and everybody else too)
<slangasek> rickspencer3: perhaps you could talk to him about taking over the spec formally, then, while keeping it on the desktop roadmap?
<robbiew> slangasek: i can do tat
<robbiew> that
<rickspencer3> I think robbiew already has
<slangasek> ok
 * robbiew adds to his ToDo list ;)
<slangasek> [ACTION] robbiew to discuss with superm1 about blueprint:desktop-karmic-bluetooth-stack
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to discuss with superm1 about blueprint:desktop-karmic-bluetooth-stack
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> pitti, rickspencer3: thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile
<slangasek> oh, er
<slangasek> backing up
<robbiew> slangasek: no mobile ;)
<slangasek> the desktop roadmap doesn't make any mention of any UI plans from the DX team this cycle
<slangasek> ah, he dodged that one, didn't he ;)
<pitti> oops
<rickspencer3> slangasek: okay, I'll talk to dbarth about that
<pitti> can they set up their own roadmap?
<rickspencer3> they should own their own roadmap this time, I think
<robbiew> +1
<rickspencer3> but if it's better for them, we can do it
<pitti> I know about the U1 integration, and some packaging issues around that
<slangasek> well, DX isn't an Ubuntu team, it's a Canonical team
<pitti> slangasek: will include a report next time
<slangasek> while I'm happy to have them maintaining their own roadmap, I want to make sure the changes are also in the *Ubuntu* roadmap
<slangasek> which I guess means desktop :)
<rickspencer3> slangasek: let me know how you best like to see it handled
<robbiew> sure
<rickspencer3> we can discuss it offline though, and have it ready for next release meeting
<slangasek> sounds good, thanks
<slangasek> anyway, mobile - I do have some notes from LoÃ¯c, which I'll dump quickly
<slangasek> * MID image moving to community maintenance; Emmet and people from the Mer project will coordinate the move; cdimage folks in mobile team will help with the technical changes
<slangasek> * UNR: karmic: no large update, still 1.0 stuff; jaunty: some SRUs are needed but a couple happened so far
<slangasek> * ARM: need to move from Babbage 1 (TO1) to Babbage 2 (TO2) -- newer hardware -- implies patching some places simultaneously (kernel, redboot, cdimage); kernel changes expected to land for A3
<slangasek> * specs: some drafted, most still drafting
<slangasek> any concerns about any of that?
<slangasek> pgraner: your guys are in the loop on the ARM kernel changes needed, I assume?
<pgraner> slangasek: yep, A3 is the target for the initial FreeScale patches
<slangasek> ok, good
<pgraner> slangasek: mobile does the redboot changes
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel
 * ogra is playing with that, might be ready before A2 but without kernel ...
<slangasek> segging right in, then :)
<pgraner> slangasek: yea
<pgraner> 2.6.31 is the kernel target
<slangasek> how solid is that target at this point?
<slangasek> hearsay at UDS was varied :)
<pgraner> No expected issues, 30 will be closing soon and we have an number of patches we are pushing into the .31 merge window
<pgraner> i.e. AppArmor
<slangasek> whee
<slangasek> what was the liveCD benefit that .31 was going to bring us?
<slangasek> cjwatson: ?
<pgraner> yes it was...
<pitti> the mount --union one?
<slangasek> probably
<ogra> \o/
<cjwatson> right
<cjwatson> although there was talk of backporting that
<slangasek> cjwatson: is what we have with 2.6.30 right now viable for release, or is it all rickety and only serving until .31 is in?
<slangasek> i.e., if the kernel roadmap changes and we don't go with .31 for some reason, what are the implications?
<cjwatson> jury's still out, I think. It's working OK for me in KVM but I haven't heard reports on real hw yet, and I know ogra said unionfs-fuse is pretty slow for him
<cjwatson> TBH I would rather we backported mount --union in that event
<ogra> on ltsp though
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> I'm not hugely happy with doing it in userspace and regard it as a stopgap
<ogra> might be the nbd/unionfs combo
<slangasek> pgraner: is that on your guys' radar then, for any .30/.31 decision yet to be made?
<slangasek> or are you confident at this point that .31 is it?
<pgraner> we are putting all of our resource into getting .31 into shape.
<slangasek> ok
<pgraner> if it starts to become unstable, we are prepared to do what is necessary to make .30 work
<slangasek> good-o
<slangasek> are there any major changes in .31 that you think we should get a heads-up on?  (or if you don't have them to hand now, perhaps a report on that at a later meeting?)
<pgraner> we are still churning thru UDS specs once we get done we will have a "plan b" for the kernel
 * slangasek nods
<pitti> from the desktop team's perspective, .31 would certainly be a win
<pitti> wrt. GEM/KMS improvements, etc.
<pgraner> we will give you a report, I will be doing a release status wiki for the kernel for this cycle
<slangasek> excellent :)
<slangasek> pgraner: thanks much!
<pgraner> The only other big thing right now is ext4 by default
<pitti> with karmic being the Fedora of Ubuntu releases anyway, it might be a good time?
<pgraner> We talked with Ted upstream and he will be assisting on any issues found
<slangasek> is that looking good for making the switch in karmic, then?
<slangasek> have we tested ext4+grub2, btw?
<pgraner> from the kernel teams perspective ... yes
<pgraner> Yes but not as much as we would like
<cjwatson> you'll get plenty of testing with a2 ;-)
<slangasek> cjwatson: is ext4 the default in a2?
<pgraner> cking is putting together a better testing plan complete with image
<cjwatson> slangasek: yes
<slangasek> wow, awesome :)
<ttx> cjwatson: including for server ?
<pitti> cjwatson: grub2 in a2 as well?
<cjwatson> ttx: yes, currently; it's much harder to make that vary than to make it the same
<cjwatson> pitti: let's wait 'til we get to the foundations slot ;-)
<ttx> cjwatson: wfm
<pitti> (sorry)
<slangasek> shall we move on to foundations now? :)
 * pitti is in "bring on the crack" mood
<pgraner> I'm good
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations
<robbiew> we're done :P
<cjwatson> I think we're a bit behind on spec drafting, although there's been a reasonable amount of activity there; should be in a better position next time to give a more complete report
<robbiew> agreed
 * robbiew needs to pull together the "list" and then sort it out
<cjwatson> the big things are bzr development, boot speed, KMS support
<robbiew> grub2 by default
<robbiew> i586 switch
<slangasek> in the short term, are there any potentially hairy issues for alpha-2?  We have working liveCDs now (thanks, cjwatson!) and need to beat them down to size
<cjwatson> so, for alpha 2, we'll have ext4 by default and will also switch to grub2 (hi, pitti)
<pitti> \o/
<cjwatson> grub2 isn't entirely where we want it to be, but might as well get started
<cjwatson> (we won't be upgrading existing systems to it)
<pitti> we need to do _some_ breakage, karmic is way too stable still
<slangasek> who wants the action item to document grub2 and ext4 for the a2 tech overview?
<cjwatson> I'll take that
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to draft a2 tech overview items on grub2 and ext4 by default
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to draft a2 tech overview items on grub2 and ext4 by default
<cjwatson> when a2 lands, we need to do matching rebuilds with i486 vs. i586
<cjwatson> which I'll coordinate with Adam
<slangasek> cjwatson: is "not doing upgrades" the only thing with grub2 that's lagging?
<cjwatson> that will support the i586 switch decision
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> slangasek: various things like DX team support (a "boot this OS next time" selector)
<slangasek> ah, yes
<cjwatson> I don't think there's anything critical missing, or I wouldn't be suggesting switching
<slangasek> is password support still outstanding upstream?
<cjwatson> yes, I believe so
<slangasek> something we should escalate with them?  That's the one major feature regression I'm aware of still with grub2 vs. grub1
<calc> cjwatson: will the results of the i386 vs i586 testing be posted somewhere?
<cjwatson> so not production-ready yet, but we need to start shaking out boot issues
<slangasek> indeed
<cjwatson> slangasek: I'll do that
<cjwatson> calc: "somewhere", yes
<cjwatson> not much point otherwise :)
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to escalate grub2 password support regression with upstream
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to escalate grub2 password support regression with upstream
<ogra> its i486 vs 586, no ?
<cjwatson> I'm not aware of anything else landing for a2, unless we get enthusiastic and shove in rsyslog too
<cjwatson> half the team has been on holiday anyway :)
<cjwatson> robbiew: anything else you know of?
<robbiew> no, not really
<robbiew> will be better prepared next week....wiki page and everything!
<slangasek> looking forward to it :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server
<slangasek> ttx: hi
<ttx> hey :)
<ttx> Standing in for dendrobates.
<ttx> So we are currently drafting our server-karmic-* specs, then dendrobates will prioritize/assign based on https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Roadmaps/9.10/ServerEdition, because we probably won't be able to do everything
<ttx> The big thing is Eucalyptus (again) with new version, extra power management features, move to main along with hundreds of deps, fit on CD
<ttx> Other cloudy stuff should make it as well, like virtual appliance.
<ttx> However we still hope to be able to do some other things as well, like more directory integration.
<slangasek> ttx: it will be nice to have a public wiki roadmap page at some point too, fwiw
<ttx> slangasek: sure, once we have wed out what we won't do.
<slangasek> yep, that's fair
<ttx> On the a2 side of things, the upgrade to Kerberos 1.7 should have broken likewise-open, as planned. It will stay broken until we move to 5.2 (unreleased yet).
<ttx> slangasek: I can confirm breakage on Monday if you want to list it in the known issues.
<slangasek> [ACTION] ttx to confirm whether likewise-open is broken with krb5 1.7, for documentation in the a2 tech overview
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to confirm whether likewise-open is broken with krb5 1.7, for documentation in the a2 tech overview
<slangasek> ttx: appreciated :)
<ttx> We don't expect Likewise to release 5.2 until July at best
<slangasek> ok
<ttx> so I'll make sure to pressure them to avoid Junty-like delays and exceptions
<pitti> ttx: anything wrong with packaging a git head snapshot? that'll also help them with testing?
<ttx> pitti: the kerberos 1.7 part isn't even written yet, but yes, I'll start with early snapshots
<pitti> ttx: ah, I misunderstood then
<pitti> sorry guys, I need to run; rickspencer3 will stay around
<slangasek> ttx: anything else we need to know about?
<slangasek> pitti: thanks
<ttx> slangasek: no. We don't have any a2 bugs
<slangasek> I saw a couple of specs had been targeted to alpha2 by kirkland
<ttx> slangasek: interesting. Checking...
<ogra> wow, brave :)
<kirkland> slangasek: yeah, daily builds of kvm, qemu/kvm repackaging
<slangasek> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-karmic-kvm-qemu-packaging, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-karmic-pristine-daily-virt-builds
<slangasek> kirkland: on track? :)
 * heno needs to run too; sbeattie will cover QA 
<slangasek> heno: thanks!
<kirkland> slangasek: heh, this week was less productive than I previously planned :-)
<kirkland> slangasek: too much time spec-writing, catching up on 2 weeks of email/bugs :-)
<ttx> kirkland: retarget for alpha3 ?
<kirkland> slangasek: i'm goign to bump those to a-3
<slangasek> sounds good
<slangasek> (I know the feeling...)
<slangasek> ttx: thanks for standing in
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<ttx> slangasek: np
<slangasek> not sure we have a motu-release representative here today
<slangasek> ScottK: around?
<ogra> bad time for him
<ogra> and i didnt hear about election of the karmic representatives yet ... that usually happens at some point
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to touch base with ScottK about universe plans
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to touch base with ScottK about universe plans
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Known regressions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Known regressions
<rickspencer3> slangasek: pitti asked me to pass on some info about the desktop CD size, is this the time to mention?
<slangasek> rickspencer3: few more minutes
<rickspencer3> k
<slangasek> [LINK] http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha1#Known issues
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/karmic/alpha1#Known issues
<slangasek> one relevant issue there, "English language support is not installed by default"
<slangasek> cjwatson: I assume this is fixed for a2, do you happen to know for sure?
<cjwatson> pretty sure that's fixed, I ripped out the workaround over two weeks ago
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> and openoffice.org-l10n no longer shows up as uninstallable
<cjwatson> so I think we're good there
<slangasek> other than that then, we just have the usual regression-potential queue; be sure to tag your bugs, etc., etc.
<slangasek> desktop team is doing quite well at fielding mine :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] ISO size
<MootBot> New Topic:  ISO size
<slangasek> rickspencer3: now :)
<rickspencer3> (08:43:56 AM) pitti: for CD size, I dropped all langpacks and unseeded ekiga
 * rickspencer3 can copy and paste!
<slangasek> oh, interesting
<slangasek> poor ekiga
<cjwatson> slangasek: I just upgraded your cd-size-analysis script on antimony to be able to fish out sizes from isoinfo output, which should decrease its false negative rate quite a bit
<slangasek> cjwatson: oh, rockin'
<rickspencer3> ekiga is being replaced by sip support in empathy
<rickspencer3> (we hope)
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> slangasek: though it's still a right pain to read due to package renames
<slangasek> which is only one of the protocols supported by ekiga, but if that's our preferred target, so be it :)
<slangasek> cjwatson: <nod>
<cjwatson> I think maybe sorting the whole thing would help
<cjwatson> libraries in particular aren't likely to change their sort order much across a rename
 * slangasek is reminded of the samba bloat that needs pruned upstream; grr
<slangasek> so, more progress to be made on CD size so we can re-add langpacks, but sounds like we're on track for a2
<slangasek> I've been working on NBSing out libkrb53, which will save a little but requires half a dozen more rebuilds yet
<rickspencer3> we need to get couchdb in there asap as well, but pitti wants to do some surgery on it to slim it down
<cjwatson> desktops are still oversized
<slangasek> not a huge benefit but needs to be done anyway
<slangasek> cjwatson: after pitti's seed changes?
<cjwatson> couchdb => erlang, IIRC?
<cjwatson> slangasek: today's live build, dunno
<slangasek> I guess we need tomorrow's live build to know for sure
<rickspencer3> we're also working with the soyuz team to enable delivering gnome help files with lang packs
<slangasek> thanks to coreutils
<rickspencer3> that should save us some space
<slangasek> indeed
<cjwatson> slangasek: oh, yeah, that change was today
<cjwatson> so probably no immediate cause for panic
<slangasek> anyone have other brilliant ideas for shrinking CDs that need some manpower thrown at them? :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<cjwatson> xulrunner-1.9 seems to have grown by a full megabyte
<slangasek> oops, didn't mean to cut you off
<cjwatson> across a mere two upstream point releases; I wonder if anything's up there
<cjwatson> nah, just stream-of-consciousness now, can move to #ubuntu-devel
<slangasek> one quick note here, 8.04.3 is creeping up on us
<cjwatson> oh, yes, I DID mean to mention that
<cjwatson> I sent mail yesterday suggesting that we push it back a week
 * robbiew forgot to respond...but agrees
<cjwatson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.04.3
<slangasek> I should have a mail out later today to the folks whose involvement is critical, with a list of bugs we need to get sorted
<cjwatson> I spent much of yesterday pushing my own SRUs up the hill, would definitely appreciate if others could do the same
<slangasek> but yes, picking off entries from the milestone list certainly won't hurt
<slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.04.3
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.04.3
<slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs?field.milestone=2132
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs?field.milestone=2132
<slangasek> pgraner: I see a number of 'triaged' kernel bugs on the list; can someone from your team look at those?
<pgraner> slangasek: yep, smb will get on it
<slangasek> [ACTION] smb to follow up on 8.04.3-targeted kernel bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smb to follow up on 8.04.3-targeted kernel bugs
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> that's all I have, then
<slangasek> anything else?
<rickspencer3> thanks slangasek!
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:13.
<slangasek> there's the gavel
<slangasek> thanks, folks
<stgraber> heya
<highvoltage> sorry, I thought I was here already
 * highvoltage hits the meeting gong
<highvoltage> *gong*
<LaserJock> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:03. The chair is LaserJock.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<stgraber> where's the agenda ? it wasn't mentioned in the mail.
<highvoltage> Meeting agenda:
<highvoltage> - Edubuntu Strategy Document
<highvoltage> - Community Council Compliance
<highvoltage> - nubae membership
<highvoltage> stgraber: sorry, I thought I did: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Community/MeetingAgenda
<stgraber> thanks
<LaserJock> ok, shall we just take them down the line?
<highvoltage> yep
<LaserJock> TOPIC Edubuntu Strategy Document
<LaserJock> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Strategy Document
<MootBot> New Topic:  Edubuntu Strategy Document
<sbalneav> Afternoon all
<highvoltage> Here's the link to the current draft: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument
<LaserJock> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/StrategyDocument
<BenoitStandre> hi everyone
<highvoltage> hi BenoitStandre
<highvoltage> and sbalneav
<LaserJock> ok, so highvoltage and I worked a little on the Development section today
 * stgraber looks
<LaserJock> the other sections should be pretty feature-complete
<highvoltage> stgraber: it's under the development section
<highvoltage> (the part that's been added today)
<LaserJock> but IMO we're still needing to get down to the dirt of how we're going to get things done
<LaserJock> we've figured out our goals, and how we're arranging the community
<stgraber> highvoltage: yeah, noticed that. That's really good thanks both of you
<LaserJock> but I think the most important part is the actual "strategy"
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I think there are some parts that we will have to accept as question marks initially
<stgraber> highvoltage: is that roadmap for karmic available somewhere (the document we worked on during UDS) ?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: some things that we won't be able to answer from the start, like how to get more maintainers
<LaserJock> let's not worry about that for the moment
<highvoltage> ok
<LaserJock> let's focus on how we can achieve our goals/objectives
<highvoltage> stgraber: I checked on gobby but I see it's not all there, I think gobby went down not long after we started, I blogged my notes, will get them for you just now
<stgraber> highvoltage: http://paste.ubuntu.com/189148/ ?
<LaserJock> what elements do you guys feel are critical to get to our goals of Education, Integration, and Usability?
<stgraber> highvoltage: just found this one on my netbook
<highvoltage> LaserJock: well, expanding the edubuntu team would be a good start imho
<stgraber> LaserJock: more hands ? ;)
<highvoltage> stgraber: ah! now I remember, we gobbied to your notebook!
<LaserJock> ok, more hands doing what?
<highvoltage> [LINK] http://paste.ubuntu.com/189148/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/189148/
<stgraber> well, we have some developement to do for Karmic (see above) and could probably use some people working on generally updating Edubuntu's documentation and doing some IRC support.
<highvoltage> LaserJock: getting software that's out there into edubuntu. then maintaining it and other packages
<stgraber> the website would also need to be updated
<BenoitStandre> IMHO we need more hands making everything usable , and that's tricky
<highvoltage> can the bot log stuff that needs to be done? like action items?
<stgraber> I guess a start for the packaging part would be to move the packaging branch of what we maintain into edubuntu-dev so we can do team maintenance
<LaserJock> highvoltage: yep
<stgraber> then we can have people who aren't MOTU or Coredev to contribute to the packaging
<BenoitStandre> because people that focus on usability might not be necessarily people that focus on integration and packaging
<LaserJock> ok, so how should be break up or categorize Edubuntu Development
<highvoltage> just for clarity, when we talk about Edubuntu Development, we mean more than just software development right?
<LaserJock> *we
<LaserJock> yep
<highvoltage> so that would include documentation, etc as well?
<LaserJock> yes
<BenoitStandre> highvoltage : we must :-)
<highvoltage> ok so development (just to through it out there) could be categorised as:
<highvoltage>  * developing upstream software
<highvoltage>  * maintaining packages in ubuntu
<stgraber> documentation (wiki and website), packaging (new stuff, maintaining others, fixing upgrade path), dev (implementing the menu stuff), qa (bug triaging and testing) and local participation / promotion (basically giving us feedback and speaking about Edubuntu)
<highvoltage>  * documentation
<stgraber> (sorry took me a while to write this one)
<highvoltage> ok stgraber has it nicely
<highvoltage> QA is probably the area we have neglected the most
<BenoitStandre> I mean, looking at the section "Reaching goals" sums it all I think
<LaserJock> artwork? support?
<highvoltage> that will be critical if we want to release a full distro again and something we'll have to get right for this release
<highvoltage> artwork, yes. I'm not sure if support would count as development
<highvoltage> but support would obviously be an important component of edubuntu
<LaserJock> advocacy/marketing?
<bencrisford> Thats very important IMO
<bencrisford> everyones heard of edubuntu
<bencrisford> but we need to get them to want it
<BenoitStandre> advocacy and marketing are important
<highvoltage> that's also important but would also fall outside of development. I wonder how we can group together advocacy, marketing and support
<stgraber> advocacy being part of local participation / promotion in what I pasted before
<LaserJock> right
<stgraber> and yes it's really important but something we're actually already quite good at (but unfortunately without something real behind it)
<bencrisford> LaserJock: We could make a SprEdubuntu project :P
<highvoltage> maybe just list them as non-development focus areas. or be over-inclusive and just list it as development areas even if they're nog (which would be a bit iffy imho)
<highvoltage> LaserJock's question was how we would categorize edubuntu development
<highvoltage> as far as i can think the above mentioned categories covers what edubuntu should be doing quite well
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> so we can do those development categories
<LaserJock> I really want to talk about what each of those categories should do, but I'm not sure we have time
<LaserJock> the thing is, I still feel like this strategy doc is not really giving us much to go on
<bencrisford> guys in my opinion, we're spending far too much time fussing over this strategy document
<LaserJock> it's very high level, somewhat abstract, managerial type stuff
<bencrisford> making strategy docs isnt gonna get edubuntu done!
<bencrisford> sure itll help
<highvoltage> LaserJock: isn't that all we need in such a document though?
<bencrisford> but not if we spend all our time on it!
<LaserJock> highvoltage: well, we have a doc with no strategy
<highvoltage> you're right
<BenoitStandre> I think the document is essential like it is, it is a strategy, and it shows essential things
<BenoitStandre> that were maybe hidden or underestimated before
<highvoltage> does it have to be a strategy doc per se though?
<BenoitStandre> so now, we can move forward with how to do it :-)
<LaserJock> ok, well maybe it's just me
<bencrisford> the document is very essential, but if we're gonna spend weeks making the strategy rather than actually working on edubuntu in more direct ways then it'll never get done
<LaserJock> but if I were a new contributor I wouldn't get much of anything out of the doc
<LaserJock> I'd read it and say "that's very nice, but I have  no clue what to do now"
<bencrisford> new contributors might not want to read a long document
<bencrisford> we should have a summary
<LaserJock> what is there is great
<LaserJock> but I feel like it doesn't move us forward
<bencrisford> just what we're gonna do, and what how we're gonna do it
<LaserJock> it's more like a mission statement
<highvoltage> LaserJock: well, I think a new contributor should get a good idea of what edubuntu does and why it does so, and how edubuntu fits into the bigger picture
<LaserJock> I agree with the why
<LaserJock> I'm not sure about the "does"
<BenoitStandre> Being a new contributor that wants to contribute, I feel that I could step in and say "I'd like to help on usability and integration, what are the tasks I could start with ?"
<stgraber> I think the current document is good for what it's, it's not a quick start guide for contributors but it was never supposed to be that
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I just don't think we're capable of having a grand big strategy that's going to lay out exactly how we're going to do things over the next months/years/etc
<LaserJock> highvoltage: why not?
<stgraber> for that we used to have some kind of contacts on the website/wiki that would act as mentors and help the new contributor join the project
<LaserJock> we don't know what we're doing?
<LaserJock> the big problem for me is that very little actual work has been done over the last year
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I don't think we have enough information or time. we could end up spending another 6 months on the thing :/
<LaserJock> if people can't figure out how to move our strategies forward we're not going to get much of anywhere
<bencrisford> highvoltage: *exactly* we should be working on edubuntu in more direct ways now, we've spent weeks on this document
<bencrisford> it wont get much done if we go on like this
<LaserJock> bencrisford: and yet, the fact that we've spent weeks indicates to me that we have no clue what we're doing
<bencrisford> exactly
<bencrisford> but more meetings wont solve this
<bencrisford> everyones ideas are clear now IMO
<LaserJock> are they?
<bencrisford> i think so
<highvoltage> I thought so too but it seems that I was wrong :)
<LaserJock> then why can't we get a strategy together?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: let's step back a bit
<BenoitStandre> just not to undermine the document, I think it is essential to have a strategy
<bencrisford> because we're trying to hard LaserJock
<LaserJock> if everybody know how to do this then it would take 1 day to write this thing
<bencrisford> we just need to put peoples feelings and ideas
<BenoitStandre> and that the document like it is sums it all very well
<bencrisford> clearly and simply
<highvoltage> LaserJock: we know more or less what we want to do for karmic, and we'd like to get ready for karmic+1 as a full distro release
<LaserJock> what are we doing for karmic?
<LaserJock> gimme the task list
<highvoltage> ok
<stgraber> LaserJock: saw that URL that I pasted a bit before ?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: it's on http://paste.ubuntu.com/189148/ as well but I'll paste some of it here for your convenienve
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> that's not much of a task list
<highvoltage>  * Enabling universe for Edubuntu builds
<LaserJock> I mean what's there is good for sure
<sbalneav> Karmic goals for sbalneav: fix sabayon, bring handbook up to date, close crasher bugs @ edubuntu-bugsquad
<highvoltage>  * Sugar integration
<highvoltage>  * Sorting our community out
<highvoltage> well, before I go on...
<highvoltage> LaserJock: would you specifically like Edubuntu to do more for the next release?
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> 1) somebody needs to learn the seeds
<LaserJock> 2) ubuntu-edu-* and universe metapackages need to be reviewed
<LaserJock> 3) packages updated
<LaserJock> 4) MIRs filed
<LaserJock> 5) website needs updated and cleaned up
<LaserJock> 6) wiki needs major work
<LaserJock> 7) we need to get our bugs < 100
<LaserJock> 8) official statement from Canonical
<highvoltage> imho 2-7 needs to happen for every release? that means that it shouldn't be in a strategy doc, should it?
<LaserJock> 9) promote the great new Edubuntu
<LaserJock> if it happens every release it *should* be in the doc
<highvoltage> LaserJock: ok, so how about listing the plans for Karmic and karmic+1 as part of the strategy doc?
<stgraber> 1, I know how that works but I don't have access, 4) did that for a few already
<LaserJock> 10) figure out to do the documentation
<highvoltage> then you could have that level of detail in the document and have a real strategy
<LaserJock> *what to do
<LaserJock> highvoltage: let's make separate wiki pages for each release
<LaserJock> and then once we've filed them in add the common stuff to the doc
<bencrisford> LaserJock: Re:  No.8, want me to see if i can drag some canonical peeps on here?
<LaserJock> no
<bencrisford> ok
<LaserJock> we just need to pester Mark/mdz
<bencrisford> mark?
<LaserJock> Shuttleworth
<highvoltage> sabdfl
<bencrisford> oh
<LaserJock> we need that statement by Karmic's release
<highvoltage> LaserJock: btw, mdz did email me and ask me if he still needs to follow up
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I think that was yesterday or so
<bencrisford> he seems to be around on #launchpad :P, lol, but we probably shouldnt bother out self appointed benevolent dictator for life
<LaserJock> 11) release announcements/notes
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I said that we're going to continue taking it via the CC and TB
<LaserJock> 12) menus
<LaserJock> 13) more age-appropriate work (artwork/themes, even docs)
 * LaserJock can think of a pretty big list given a few minutes :-0
<bencrisford> In the current task list, it says we need to maintain packages in time for teaching in schools and stuff
<highvoltage> well, we don't have to fix/do *everything* in one release
<stgraber> usually 11 is some kind of team effort and we agreed with highvoltage that it should be the work of the edubuntu council (I think we documented that as part of the strategy at some point)
<highvoltage> but all of those areas do desperately need work nad revival, yes
<highvoltage> yes that's if the EC also acts as a type of TB, although I think that anyone who is willing to contribute that should be able to
<highvoltage> so it shouldn't be limited to the EC, but the EC must make sure that it happens
<stgraber> indeed
<stgraber> similar to what's done with Ubuntu
<stgraber> basically the release team takes care of it but it's done on a wikipage with external contributors
<highvoltage> LaserJock: ok so there will be wiki pages listing those items for karmic and karmic+1
<highvoltage> LaserJock: what type of actions would you still want to see in the strategy doc?
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> so yeah
<stgraber> well, let's move on, it's only the first item on the agenda ;)
<LaserJock> let's make wiki.u.com/Edubuntu/9.10/Tasks
<highvoltage> LaserJock: what do you think of having the karmic and karmic+1 pages the strategies for those releases
<LaserJock> and /10.04/Taks
<stgraber> so basically what we need is someone to write the roadmap on the wiki based on the gobby and the IRC notes
<highvoltage> LaserJock: and then make the strategy doc more of a mission statement document?
<LaserJock> highvoltage: I still think we need more specfics
<LaserJock> but I think we should let those grow from our tasks lists
<highvoltage> LaserJock: mind giving some examples?
<LaserJock> perhaps we're approaching from the wrong direction
<LaserJock> instead of having a strategy and then creating tasks
<LaserJock> perhaps we need to just write down what we want to do, and figure out the common themes and methods
<highvoltage> I think what's currently in that doc has it down quite good imo
<sbalneav> Karmic goals for sbalneav: fix sabayon, bring handbook up to date, close crasher bugs @ edubuntu-bugsquad
<stgraber> I see the strategy as some kind of introduction to the project, technical stuff and roadmaps should be separate and be decided either late in the previous release cycle or very early in the current
<highvoltage> sbalneav: great, at least that takes care of the documentation burden somewhat!
<LaserJock> stgraber: right, but I think the strategy doc does need some "how" in it
<highvoltage> I agree with stgraber, because the technical stuff and roadmaps tend to change
<highvoltage> I think that strategy doc needs to be something that's more static
<LaserJock> enough "how" that people can read it and get an idea of what they can contribute to
<highvoltage> something that should stay true for many releases
<LaserJock> well, ideally the technical stuff will remain largely the same
<highvoltage> true
<LaserJock> i.e. we should have development policies and procedures in place
<LaserJock> that's what I'm getting at
<LaserJock> how do we do what we do
<LaserJock> I don't need specific tasks
<highvoltage> LaserJock: but shouldn't they be able to see how they could contribute by looking at the release plans as well?
<LaserJock> but how do we as a community want to develop Edubuntu
<LaserJock> sure
<highvoltage> in my opinion that doc already gives people a good idea of what they can do to improve edubuntu
<LaserJock> the release plans should be "ok, here's how we're gonna do it this release and the specific tasks that are going to happen"
<stgraber> I think for the "how do we do it?" the current team descriptions answer quite a lot already
<LaserJock> ok
<stgraber> though what would be interesting would be to add links to additional documentation at the end of the strategy doc
<stgraber> like to a guide for newcomers and useful ressources to get started but that shouldn't be part of the strategy
<LaserJock> yep
<stgraber> should we take some actions there and move on ?
<highvoltage> yes
<highvoltage> stgraber: would you be willing to look at the seeds and find out what we need to do to get you the required access to change things?
<LaserJock> it takes a core dev
<LaserJock> but I'm more than happy to "sponsor" changes
<highvoltage> stgraber is one of those shiny new partial-core-devs
<stgraber> indeed, and I already started to poke to get "full core dev"
<stgraber> the "upgrade" from limited to full coredev isn't clear in the documentation so I'll probably need to ping the TB at the next meeting or something similar
<highvoltage> and I think we have some good motivation to add to his existing reasons for becomming a full one
<stgraber> yeah and I'm already familiar with how seeds work, I just don't have commit access to them
<highvoltage> stgraber: we've already added edubuntu for the next TB meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<stgraber> highvoltage: cool, then you'll already be there ;)
<LaserJock> ok, so but to finish off the agenda item
<highvoltage> stgraber: perhaps you could make a note of that there as well, also feel free to add your name to myself and LaserJock's, I can't quite remember why I didn't add yours before
<LaserJock> we're going to 1) finish off the doc this week and send it to relevant places 2) create a Karmic task list 3) create a Karmic+1 task list
<LaserJock> ?
<highvoltage> +1
<stgraber> sounds good, +1
<sbalneav> +1
<LaserJock> [ACTION] finalize strategy document and send to relevant mailing lists/news sources
<MootBot> ACTION received:  finalize strategy document and send to relevant mailing lists/news sources
<highvoltage> ok, shall we move on to the CC stuff?
<highvoltage> ok I'll give LaserJock a minute to add the actions first
<LaserJock> [ACTION] Create Karmic and Karmic+1 task list wiki pages
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Create Karmic and Karmic+1 task list wiki pages
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> CC stuff
<highvoltage> The CC noticed the changes in the Edubuntu team and it raised a flag
<highvoltage> they had some questions about the changes and why there were so many changes in such a short amount of time
<bencrisford> what did you tell them? :P
<highvoltage> we explained that we had a long membership queue and that we had long-standing contributors that we reviewed and approved
<highvoltage> we also explained that we removed RichEd's EC status since we haven't been able to contact him since he left canonical
<highvoltage> (and even some time before that)
<highvoltage> we were down to only 2 EC members before that, which isn't optimal at all and makes it hard to set/reach any kind of quorum
<highvoltage> EC quorum is supposed to be 3
<stgraber> (we actually discussed it face to face with dholbach ;))
<highvoltage> so we voted in stgraber as an EC member
<highvoltage> but since it's such a relatively big change to such a small team at that stage, the CC would like to review it
<LaserJock> so my questions are is there something the CC wants us to do and what about the LP changes we wanted?
<highvoltage> so we just need to write some introduction and motivation for stgraber's inclusion so that they can review it
<bencrisford> stgraber owns!
<stgraber> we also need the CC to change team ownership I guess
<highvoltage> LaserJock: dholbach re-iterated much of what he said in his e-mails
<highvoltage> LaserJock: he said that he's happy with the renewed energy but that he would like to see more communication with the CC
<stgraber> basically having edubuntu-members owned by the edubuntu-council and the edubuntu-council owned by the CC
<highvoltage> LaserJock: he said that the CC would also like to see more of our plans and what we intend to do before we do it
<stgraber> when is the next CC meeting ?
<stgraber> Tue, June 16, 10am â 12pm
<stgraber> same day as the TB
<stgraber> so we'll need to be around on that day it seems ;)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I told him that we're busy getting a strategy doc in place and that we'd have our plans and intentions clear before the end of june
<bencrisford> well i think stgraber owns :)
<stgraber> hmm, 10am GMT is going to be a problem ... (for me)
<highvoltage> (I know we'll get it way before that but I just wanted to play it safe)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: yes, so they agreed with the LP changes
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure I understand what exactly they want from us
<highvoltage> LaserJock: we just need to go through the process of presenting it to them so that they can officially rubberstamp it
<bencrisford> i have to go, ill be back later
<LaserJock> I see
<bencrisford> ill read the logs
<highvoltage> LaserJock: dholbach also said that we should get our meetings in the ubuntu calender, and submit team reports
<LaserJock> right
<highvoltage> LaserJock: I explained our situation of the past year and he said that he understands
<highvoltage> LaserJock: so they're really not asking much of us, nothing more than we already want to do
<LaserJock> alrighty
<highvoltage> LaserJock: we just need to communicate more of it formally
<highvoltage> I just wanted to bring those details into this meeting so that it's out in the open
<highvoltage> stgraber: was there something I left out?
<highvoltage> oh yes, there was
<highvoltage> dholbach said in one of the e-mails to the EC that the CC would be willing to help us get the EC numbers up if we need help with that
<highvoltage> or if we need guidance
<LaserJock> k
<highvoltage> so we do have some actions:
<highvoltage> 1. introduce stgraber to the CC for EC approval (just as a formality)
<highvoltage> 2. figure out how we'll do team reporting (maybe something we can do on #edubuntu or the next edubuntu meeting)
<highvoltage> 3. present our plans, changes in lp, etc to the CC
<highvoltage> what did I leave out...
<stgraber> the items for the TB (4 hours after the CC) ;)
<stgraber> but for the CC that should be about it
<highvoltage> ok
<highvoltage> hmm, I see on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda that we don't have a slot there yet
<highvoltage> 11:00 UTC isn't always easy for me, but it shouldn't be a problem, at least I know in advance
<stgraber> can you add us there ? I'll do my best to be there but that'll be 6am for me and we're not speaking of LaserJock's timezone ;)
<stgraber> 11 UTC ? thought I saw 10 UTC
<stgraber> ah, ok that's on the wiki. maybe it's the fridge that's broken somewho
<stgraber> *somehow
<LaserJock> let's see 11 UTC is 4am here
<stgraber> 11 UTC is 7am here so a bit easier than 10 UTC, though I'll have to leave to go to the office at 11:30 and will be back online at 11:50 or so
<highvoltage> it's a weird time for such a meeting, maybe it's one of those timeslots chosen to be convenient for the asians
<highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<stgraber> so if we're at least two around, we should be able to cover the whole meeting :)
<highvoltage> we're Item #3 on general. please check.
<highvoltage> stgraber: yes, although I think myself and LaserJock (and other edubuntu'ers) should be there to introduce you properly
<highvoltage> although I think most people in the CC are already familiar with at least some of your work
<LaserJock> as much as possible anyway
<stgraber> yeah ;)
<LaserJock> we should maybe send out an email to edubuntu-devel or something for both CC and TB so Edubuntu'ers can cheer
<highvoltage> inedeed
<LaserJock> moving on?
<highvoltage> right, we're happy with the CC and TB actions and agendas?
<stgraber> [ACTION] send out an email to edubuntu-devel or something for both CC and TB so Edubuntu'ers can cheer
<highvoltage> I take the silence as a yes
<stgraber> LaserJock: I guess [ACTION] is only available for you :(
<LaserJock> [ACTION] send out an email to edubuntu-devel or something for both CC and TB so Edubuntu'ers can cheer
<MootBot> ACTION received:  send out an email to edubuntu-devel or something for both CC and TB so Edubuntu'ers can cheer
<LaserJock> mwuahahahaha
 * LaserJock has the powa!
<highvoltage> heh, probably because he initiated the meeting
<highvoltage> I think nubae said he couldn't make this meeting
<highvoltage> I can't find the mail so he might have said so on IRC
<LaserJock> alrighty
<highvoltage> anything else?
<LaserJock> I'm a tad concerned about getting things moving
<LaserJock> so far for Karmic the only thing that I've gotten is a gcompris bug fix from bencrisford
<highvoltage> well, we're not moving for technical stuff yet, but I do feel that we are moving in the sense of getting things back together again
<highvoltage> the fact that we got a bug fix from bencrisford is great imho
<LaserJock> so I think we need to make sure to encourage people to get things moving here
<LaserJock> totally
<highvoltage> not so much in the bug fix itself, but that we actually have someone new that's contributed
<highvoltage> LaserJock: well, we don't have to wait for the strat doc or TB or CC meetings to get moving
<LaserJock> exactly
<highvoltage> but those things really have to happen
<LaserJock> we need that task list things
<stgraber> currently I'm mainly focused on fixing LTSP and getting a new version in (quite a lot of upload this week actually) but should then have some time to play with edubuntu
<highvoltage> and with my EC hat on those are big prioroties
<highvoltage> LaserJock: getting stgraber write access to the seeds would also be good progress imho
<highvoltage> LaserJock: it could potentially take lots of load off from you
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> I just need people working on things
<LaserJock> I don't have to much of a problem sponsoring things
<LaserJock> but I haven't gotten much
<sbalneav> Apart from what I outlined earlier, what would you like me to work on?
<LaserJock> sbalneav: that sounded like a handful to me
<stgraber> I can still work on the changes and branch or propose patches, that's not so hard though it adds someone to the process
<sbalneav> Has anyone tried the newer sabayon in my ppa?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: understood, I'll have something after monday that I'd like you to sponsor, so you'll have at least some pesting for that
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> I'm more concerned about docs/wiki/website
<LaserJock> there's not a ton of packaging work to at least keep us afloat
<highvoltage> shall we talk about that briefly before ending the meeting?
<LaserJock> but the wiki is in real bad shape in terms of it being so outdated and huge (200+ pages)
<stgraber> I can probably have a look at the website as I've done quite a lot of Drupal in the past, we'd just need a todo list for it too and give me access to it
<stgraber> so we can at least change what really needs to be changed then find someone else to maintain it
<highvoltage> stgraber: ok, will do
<LaserJock> what I'd like to see is somebody for each "area" or "domain" to take on a little leadership in terms of defining the needs
<stgraber> I won't be able to take care of it all myself but can probably give a hand at improving things until we have someone who really take care of it
<highvoltage> I agree with LaserJock about the wiki, that monstrosity of old pages does us more harm than good
<stgraber> agreed
<LaserJock> maybe we should split stuff up, add our items to the Karmic / Karmic+1 wiki pages and then next meeting we can review them as a group?
<stgraber> sounds good
<LaserJock> that way no single person has to do everything but *somebody* has a clue what's going on in every area
<stgraber> yeah, just having the list would help a lot
<highvoltage> ok, so another action is assigning people to areas
<stgraber> because otherwise it's things "we know about" but never written down on a wiki page
<highvoltage> even if it's just temporary
<LaserJock> documentation (wiki and website), packaging (new stuff, maintaining others, fixing upgrade path), dev (implementing the menu stuff), qa (bug triaging and testing) and local participation / promotion (basically giving us feedback and speaking about Edubuntu)
<LaserJock> ^^ is what stgraber had
<LaserJock> who wants to take what for now?
<stgraber> I could work on the dev part (probably with some help from Revolution Linux), testing and the website
<LaserJock> i can do packaging
<stgraber> and the seeds if you need some help
<highvoltage> I could spend some time on QA
<stgraber> (working on finding how to upgrade to full-coredev at the moment)
<LaserJock> well, let's just start with a temporary thing to define what needs to be done
<LaserJock> so we don't commit to a bunch of stuff right this second
<LaserJock> highvoltage: you feel like working on promotion/marketing/advocacy?
<highvoltage> LaserJock: always \o/
<LaserJock> sbalneav: can you do some definition of what needs to be done on documentation?
<LaserJock> I can do packaging
<highvoltage> stgraber: your drupal user on edubuntu.org now has all admin rights
<stgraber> thanks
<LaserJock> ok, how about this:
<LaserJock> stgraber == qa
<LaserJock> LaserJock == packaging
<LaserJock> highvoltage == advocacy/marketing
<LaserJock> sbalneav == documentation
<LaserJock> and then we all work on dev as I think that will require input from a lot of different areas and will be the hardest to define
<highvoltage> that can work
<stgraber> LaserJock: you can also add the website to my list for now
<LaserJock> I don't want to force any commitments or exclude people
<LaserJock> I just think it'd be useful for trying to move forward if we have a point-person
<highvoltage> yeah I'll still get involved on the QA side
<LaserJock> we can rearrange things later as well
<LaserJock> I just think we need to really get on the ball for what needs to happen in the next 2 releases, especially Karmic
<highvoltage> LaserJock: just keep in mind that the community stuff and sorting ourselves out is also part of getting the ball rolling
<LaserJock> I agree
<highvoltage> imho we're starting to get good momentum, we just have to channel it into the right places
<LaserJock> I just want to get contributors going while the EC is sorting high level things out
<highvoltage> *nod*
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> when's the next meeting?
<highvoltage> how does this time work for most people?
<highvoltage> nubae couldn't make this one, I don't know if it was a set thing or if it was just today
<LaserJock> I think we might need to do some sort of rotation
<stgraber> I'd go with one next week so we can make sure everything's ready for the CC and TB meetings
<highvoltage> yes
<highvoltage> thursday?
<highvoltage> (or any other suggestions?)
<stgraber> thursday is good, I have something in the evening though but that's hyper late in europe so ...
<highvoltage> 15:00 UTC?
<LaserJock> looking at the calendar Tuesday is the bad day
<LaserJock> Monday and Friday are generally the best
<stgraber> 15:00 UTC is fine if it's not more than an hour
<highvoltage> monday is a bit soon
<LaserJock> looking at the Ubuntu calendar
<highvoltage> good idea.
<LaserJock> Thursday 15:00UTC
<LaserJock> ?
<bencrisford> Weekdays im home by at leat 5
<bencrisford> lest*
<bencrisford> thursday id miss the first  > 45 minutes
<bencrisford> is 16:00 UTC not possible?
<stgraber> lunch break for me
<stgraber> 17:00 UTC would be good though
<highvoltage> yes 17:00 UTC is fine for me too
<bencrisford> i can do 12:00 UTC, 16:00 UTC, and most times after that
<LaserJock> so 17:00 UTC it is
<bencrisford> i might miss bits of it
<bencrisford> but i can read the logs :)
<highvoltage> bencrisford: we'll recap when you join
<bencrisford> what did i miss when i was gone just now btw?
<bencrisford> highvoltage: ty :)
<highvoltage> bencrisford: a lot! for that you'll have to scroll up :)
<highvoltage> can we adjourn this meeting?
<LaserJock> yes please!
<bencrisford> highvoltage: hehe, i came back to find my pidgin icon with a great big 136 by it
<stgraber> so that's thursday 17:00 UTC ?
<highvoltage> stgraber: yes
<stgraber> ok
<highvoltage> who will add it to the ubuntu calender?
<highvoltage> I don't really dig the whole google calender thing
<LaserJock> oh, I can do it
<highvoltage> thanks
<highvoltage> ok we have +2 for ending the meeting
<stgraber> +1
<stgraber> sorry ;)
<highvoltage> heh, that's a wrap.
<highvoltage> *gong*
<bencrisford> hehe, action item: end the meeting
<LaserJock> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:46.
<highvoltage> MootBot is not using UTC :/
<LaserJock> does anybody feel like doing the meeting minutes?
<bencrisford> LaserJock: I will
<bencrisford> it will give me a chance to catch up with what i missed
<highvoltage> anyway, thanks LaserJock, bencrisford, sbalneav, stgraber and BenoitStandre for attending and contributing
<stgraber> bencrisford: do you have the backlog ? otherwise MootBot put all the somewhere on the web with a quick summary of the actions taken during the meeting
<stgraber> LaserJock should have received the link when ending the meeting
<LaserJock> bencrisford: http://www.novarata.net/mootbot/
<stgraber> thanks everyone
<LaserJock> hmm, that's not the full log though
<highvoltage> in my opinion this was the best edubuntu meeting we had in a very long time, let's keep the momentum up and give LaserJock lots of stuff to sponsor :)
<LaserJock> bencrisford: do you have a log of this?
<bencrisford> LaserJock: I cant find it
<LaserJock> bencrisford: I can send you mine if you like
<highvoltage> I have the full irssi log that I can post?
<LaserJock> highvoltage: email it to bencrisford ;-)
<stgraber> !logs
<LaserJock> I really need to get back to the dissertation
<ubottu> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<highvoltage> ok
<stgraber> lacking a few minutes though, should be there soon
<bencrisford> stgraber: Oooh, thanks, found em
<highvoltage> bencrisford: http://jonathancarter.co.za/files/temp/ubuntu-meeting.log.bz2
<bencrisford> highvoltage: You don't have permission to access /files/temp/ubuntu-meeting.log.bz2 on this server.
<bencrisford> :(
<highvoltage> bencrisford: should be fine now
<bencrisford> highvoltage: Thanks :D, it worked :)
<highvoltage> ok on to #edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-07
<huats> BlackZ, I should attend the meeting, but I might be a little late (like 20 minutes)
<BlackZ> huats: so should we start without you?
<huats> sure
<BlackZ> OK, thanks for the info
<huats> or you can wait for me if you want
<huats> but not necessary !
<huats> :)
<huats> ttl
<BlackZ> RoAkSoAx, statik, showard, it's the time to start
<showard> ok
<BlackZ> RoAkSoAx: are you there? statik ?
<BlackZ> ok, no problem we can start BTW
<BlackZ> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is BlackZ.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<BlackZ> huats will be late, he said to start without him
<showard> ok
<BlackZ> [TOPIC] Developer mentoring reception meeting - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentoring/Reception/Meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Developer mentoring reception meeting - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentoring/Reception/Meeting
<BlackZ> showard: do you want to start?
<showard> sure, loading up the agenda
<BlackZ> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous sessions.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous sessions.
<BlackZ> that's the first item
<showard> the action points were to make the documentation on the wiki
<BlackZ> OK, so we can go with the second item instead
<BlackZ> can't we?
<showard> trying to find the link
<showard> yes
<BlackZ> [TOPIC] Discuss and approve proposed mentoring program documentation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss and approve proposed mentoring program documentation
<showard> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/MentoringReception/MentoringProposal
<showard> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/MentoringReception/MentoringProposal
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/MentoringReception/MentoringProposal
<BlackZ> well, I have reviewed that, seems OK
<showard> OK, we can start floating it once we get an ok from hauts as well
<BlackZ> any objection against it?
<showard> I think it's just the two of us
<BlackZ> OK, so we need almost huats for discuss of that and start the vote
<BlackZ> showard: in the meanwhile we can talk about an interesting point and let that to discuss later
<showard> ok
<BlackZ> [TOPIC] Discuss with the packaging training coordinators the membership approval for our team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss with the packaging training coordinators the membership approval for our team
<BlackZ> showard: what do you think about that?
<BlackZ> according to https://lists.launchpad.net/packaging-training-coordinators/msg00095.html
<showard> It's interesting, but I think it might be good to have two seperate teams still and have us individually apply (if interested). Kind of like how MOTUs still have to apply for bug-control
<showard> mostly because they have their own system and I want us to be a part of that (especially since there are only 4 or so of us)
<BlackZ> showard: we have to talk with huats and the others about that
<BlackZ> (too)
<showard> yes
<BlackZ> yeah, but that would give a lot of benefits for the mentors
<BlackZ> and the contributors
<BlackZ> dholbach: are you there?
<dholbach> yes
<BlackZ> dholbach: can you start to say what do you think about that proposal?
<showard> I'm not familiar with it, how to do you see our relationship with the training coordinators team working? could you guive some examples
<BlackZ> showard: have you read the e-mail?
<dholbach> showard: as far as I understand it, BlackZ wants to suggest to mentors to give sessions regularly or make their training activities with their mentees in a more public forum and ask them to run packaging training sessions
<dholbach> I think it's a wonderful idea - we always need more packaging training sessions
<BlackZ> yeah, that's what I want to say
<BlackZ> showard: so are you +0 ?
<dholbach> I think it should be good to include it in the documentation and in the initial mails you send mentors
<BlackZ> dholbach: we have to wait huats, he will be late :(
<BlackZ> <huats> BlackZ, I should attend the meeting, but I might be a little late (like 20 minutes)
<showard> Ok, I thought you wanted something else
<dholbach> showard: what were you thinking of?
<BlackZ> showard: what's your vote then?
<showard> Yes, mentors should be able to help give sessions and coordinate - I thought you wanted the reception team to coordinate what training sessions were giving
<showard> *given
<dholbach> ah ok
<showard> +1 for mentors being in the team
<BlackZ> +1 from me too
<showard> so BlackZ - we'd have a "Developerment Mentors" team which would be a member of Packaging Train. coordinatorS?
<BlackZ> showard: yeah
<showard> that sounds good
<BlackZ> persia suggested something of that
<BlackZ> and huats and others was agree
<BlackZ> were*
<showard> We should add that to our proposal page, could you do that after the meeting? under Mentor Workflow and Reception Workflow?
<BlackZ> sure
<BlackZ> [ACTION] BlackZ to set up this idea in the mentoring propostal page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  BlackZ to set up this idea in the mentoring propostal page
<BlackZ> proposal, argh
<BlackZ> [ACTION] BlackZ to set up this idea in the mentoring proposal page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  BlackZ to set up this idea in the mentoring proposal page
<BlackZ> showard: can you send an e-mail to our mailing list for the absent people?
<showard> yes, with the minutes
<BlackZ> [ACTION] showard to send an e-mail of this meeting to the developer mentoring reception mailing list for the absent people
<MootBot> ACTION received:  showard to send an e-mail of this meeting to the developer mentoring reception mailing list for the absent people
<showard> so we need an email vote on the proposal
<showard> then send the proposal to relevant lists for feedback?
<BlackZ> showard: I'd say yes if huats will not be here
<BlackZ> we can wait until 16:00 UTC
<showard> lists: DMB, devel-discuss, MOTU, and the teams lists?
<BlackZ> BTW I'd send it for the vote from absent people
<BlackZ> yes
<BlackZ> can you do that?
<showard> Yes
<BlackZ> [ACTION] showard to send an e-mail to (MOTU, Ubuntu core development team and delegated teams) for get feedback about our documentation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  showard to send an e-mail to (MOTU, Ubuntu core development team and delegated teams) for get feedback about our documentation
<BlackZ> [TOPIC] Discuss about the completely rename of the team and the mailing list
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss about the completely rename of the team and the mailing list
<BlackZ> well, I have said huats to rename the old LP team and he did but we still have ~motu-mentoring-reception as ID
<BlackZ> it should be ~developer-mentoring-reception
<BlackZ> and.. we should rename the mailing list
<showard> We'd need a new team, I believe. We also need a team for ~developer-mentor, and a project "Ubuntu Developer Mentoring Project"
<BlackZ> showard: I don't understand, can you be more clear?
<BlackZ> a new team for what?
<showard> sure, the Project is for the bug report applications
<showard> the new team would be ~developer-mentoring-reception (I don't think you can rename LP teams)
<BlackZ> yeah, it could be possible
<BlackZ> AFAIK
<showard> and we need a team for the mentors so they can be added to the Packaging Training Coordinators team
<showard> or we could just manually add them
<showard> although they might like having the icon for being a mentor
<BlackZ> OK, so:
<BlackZ> ~packaging-training-coordinators will add the ~motu-mentoring-reception team as a member
<BlackZ> do we need a new team for the bug report? I'm still +0 about that
<showard> the ~developer-mentoring-reception team would be the owner of "Ubuntu Developer Mentoring Project" so we are the only ones that can assign/triage bug reports
<BlackZ> ah, hmm
<showard> no to: ~packaging-training-coordinators will add the ~motu-mentoring-reception team as a member
<showard> I thought we decided that the mentors get added, not the reception team
<BlackZ> why that?
<BlackZ> I think we could have the membership automatically, dholbach ?
<dholbach> if you want to, you'd get on the mailing list then
<dholbach> maybe you can talk to nhandler about it
<BlackZ> dholbach: yeah, we have to
<dholbach> great
<BlackZ> isn't he here?
<BlackZ> showard: so are you still +1 about that?
<showard> so we're adding outhe reception team and the mentor team to the mailing list?
<showard> mailing list= packaging training coordinators?
<BlackZ> showard: no, they will add us as member and the mentors will get the membership automatically
<BlackZ> if somebody is in the team that means he's good with the packaging-related tasks
<BlackZ> am I wrong?
<showard> I'm just thinking about implimentation, you're right about having them join  -- I was thinking that you have a mentor team, and the mentor team is a member of the packaging training coordinating team
<BlackZ> clarified that point
<showard> and we add people to the mentor team
<BlackZ> they will get the packaging training coordinators membership automatically
<BlackZ> according to my e-mail
<showard> I'm trying to minimize work so that they don't have to be manually added to multiple teams, but that the mentoring team would do it automatically
<BlackZ> once somebody is added to our team
<showard> ahh that's the problem, I don't think new mentors are added to the reception team
<showard> they are two seperate teams
<showard> reception = coordination (don't even have to be MOTU), mentoring = actual mentoring
<BlackZ> showard: yeah, they're: LP account -> our team -> membership in our team -> membership in the packaging training coordinators team
<showard> but new mentors won't be on our team, I don't think
<showard> I don't think all mentors should be in -reception
<BlackZ> mentors are encouraged to join
<BlackZ> and they should
<BlackZ> we don't want what you said
<BlackZ> *ALL* mentors should join the team
<BlackZ> but that doesn't mean: "join the team or we will kill you"
<showard> In the past that wasn't the case, but I think you're right - we could encourage it
<showard> and those that want to join reception would be interested in packaging training - so that makes sense
<showard> kill my "mentors" team idea
<showard> and just have one team
<BlackZ> showard: are you +1 then?
<showard> the reception team
<showard> another problem: if everyone is in the reception team, who assigns mentors?
<huats> hello everyone
<huats> siorry I am late
<BlackZ> huats: \o
<showard> it was seperate in the past to prevent self selection of mentors
<showard> hey hauts
<BlackZ> showard: mentors?
<BlackZ> the people who wants to take part should send their application
<showard> (*mentees) our current discussion is whether all mentors should be members of -reception or not
<BlackZ> ah
<BlackZ> I think they have to
<huats> oh ok
<BlackZ> huats: for you?
<huats> I don't think so
<showard> The pro side: encourages participation
<huats> the reception is the team who is handling the mentors/mentee couples
<showard> the con side: who chooses mentors/mentee pairs if everyone is a reception?
<huats> I like to consider the reception like a desk where people go asn ask for something
<BlackZ> OK huats
<BlackZ> so we should do another team
<huats> why do you think it will encourage participation ?
<showard> huats has a point just because they are there doesn't mean that they will participate
<BlackZ> the reception will take all decisions and assign mentee to mentors, but the mentors are BTW encouraged to talk with us
<BlackZ> and take part of the decisions
<huats> BlackZ, I think mentors are highly encouraged to talk to us
<huats> and to take part of the decisions regarding thei (potential) mentee
<BlackZ> huats: so we need another team
<showard> Back to the original question: I think both teams should be members of packaging training coordinators (or have -reception be a member of mentors, and have mentors be a member of  PTC)
<showard> The only reason why we need a mentors team is so that mentors can get on the PTC mailing list
<showard> (I believe)
<BlackZ> yeah showard
<BlackZ> then we will approve the other team in our team
<BlackZ> and they will be BTW members of packaging training coordinators
<BlackZ> but I'm still confused on that, it's a chain
<BlackZ> huats: according to https://lists.launchpad.net/packaging-training-coordinators/msg00095.html what do you think about that?
<huats> BlackZ,  I have seen this email indeed
<BlackZ> huats: what's your vote?
<huats> hum honnestly I don't know
<BlackZ> so are you +0 ?
<huats> I haven't figured out all the pro and cons
<huats> :)
<BlackZ> we had a discussion with dholbach
<huats> right now I would +0 but I might be convinced :)
<showard> The pros: we and the mentors know what's being planned and can request specific topics (general training)
<showard> the cons: more mail for us
<BlackZ> huats: what's the balance for pass an idea? 5+ or 4+ ?
<showard> the pros for them: some mentors (and us) might sign up for teaching some sessions
<showard> there are 3 of us, so I'd like us to all agree if possible - if not we can shelve it until more people show up
<BlackZ> showard: I was talking about the vote
<BlackZ> surely according to first you will send an e-mail
<BlackZ> and we will hear the feedback from other members
<huats> showard, if it is only a few more mails... then go for it
<huats> then  +1 for me
<showard> yes for both mentors and us, but if mentors complain for some reason we can make it just -reception
<huats> showard, sure
<BlackZ> huats: another thing: we should decide how an idea can pass, with balance?
<BlackZ> 4+ or 5+ seems enough
<huats> showard, I think only reception might be better
<huats> and if any mentors want to be part of that he can subscribe to  PTC
<BlackZ> that will help in our next ideas
<BlackZ> I think 4+ would be sufficient
<BlackZ> showard, huats for you?
<showard> How many "members" do we have?
<BlackZ> 7
<showard> we could do what other teams do: to vote you need 1/2+1 present, and to pass you need 1/2+1 of the vote
<showard> so we'd need 4 present to vote
<huats> I agree with showard
<BlackZ> showard: send the e-mail then
<BlackZ> write who's agree and that we want to hear a feedback from them
<BlackZ> huats: last thing and we will close the today's meeting: what about the LP team rename and the documentation rename?
<showard> so two topics to vote on: approval of the proposal before getting feedback from other teams and membership in PTC
<huats> BlackZ, I have tried many times the LP team rename
<BlackZ> also the mailing list, forgot
<huats> without succes
<huats> (I will try again tonigh)
<BlackZ> huats: I will ping the guys in #launchpad
<huats> BlackZ, I'll do that, it'll be easier
<BlackZ> huats: for the mailing list?
<BlackZ> I think we will need to do that as last point
<huats> regarding the mailing list, I'll do that this week or the next one, since it is on my server and I am currently reorganising my email infrastucture
<huats> I haven't worked on renaming the documentation yet
<BlackZ> yeah huats, for the documentation after the feedback could we rename the pages?
<huats> I think so
<BlackZ> (if the feedback is positive)
<BlackZ> OK, for me the meeting is over
<BlackZ> any objections? ideas?
<BlackZ> I will talk with the packaging training coordinators about us after we get 4+ votes
<BlackZ> are you agree huats, showard ?
<huats> +1 for me
<BlackZ> OK, let's discuss about that in our ML
<BlackZ> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
<BlackZ> thanks all
<showard> thanks, good job blackz
<BlackZ> showard: ^
<BlackZ> have a nice day
<kees> jdstrand, sbeattie, jjohansen: security team meeting?
<jdstrand> yep
<jdstrand> o/
<sbeattie> Hey
<kees> \o
<mdeslaur> hello
 * jjohansen \o
<kees> mdeslaur: oh... were you hiding? my tab-complete didn't find you.
<kees> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:01. The chair is kees.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kees> [topic] stand-up report
<MootBot> New Topic:  stand-up report
<kees> last week the kernel security updates were published.  besides the handled glitch with kvm in lucid, it seemed okay
<kees> today i'll be publishing OOo, since that unembargoed on saturday
<kees> spent some time last week looking at apparmor bugs, fixed one.
<kees> this week I might start looking at packaging fixes
<jjohansen> yeah I saw that thanks kees
<kees> for a later topic: we should schedule a AA upstream meeting
<kees> that's it from me.  jdstrand is up.
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> would it be worthwhile to have aa commits go to apparmor-dev automatically?
<kees> not sure.
<sbeattie> jdstrand: I dunno, you can subscribe to them.
<jdstrand> granted, it is a bit after the fact as we menioned before that non-distro specific stuff should get an ACK
<jdstrand> yes, I am subscribed. it just occurred to me
<jdstrand> anyway, we can discuss that in the apparmor upstream meeting
<jjohansen> right
<jdstrand> so
<jdstrand> this week I am focusing on testing/publishing the firefox 3.6.4 update for hardy
<jdstrand> jaunty and karmic will most likely be in a week or so more
<jdstrand> last week I uncovered several issues and brought them up to the ubuntu-mozillateam, and they are addressing them
<kees> is there a master checklist or something for all the steps/packages needed for the transition?
<jdstrand> the most disconcerting is that I discovered that epiphany/webkit does not provide adequate feedback of certificate validation
<kees> *facepalm*
<jdstrand> upstream gnome has noticed and seem to be working to fix that
<jdstrand> yeah. pretty bad
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: did the non webkit version work properly?
<jdstrand> it affects all versions of Ubuntu
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: yes, gecko webkit gave a popup/confirmation type thingie
<jdstrand> err
<mdeslaur> d'oh
<jdstrand> gecko epiphany
<jdstrand> kees: the qa team has setup something for firefox, plugins and addons in the qa tracker
<jdstrand> and there are wiki pages
 * jdstrand goes to get it
<sbeattie> http://mozilla.qa.ubuntu.com/ is the tracker
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://mozilla.qa.ubuntu.com/ is the tracker
<kees> jdstrand: I've seen the giant wiki page, but it didn't seem organized (at the time) like a "here are all the steps we need to do" page
<jdstrand> there is one that I believe ara setup that is more clear
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Firefox3.6.4Upgrade
<jdstrand> firefox is in pretty good shape
<jdstrand> with the exception of openjdk and the sun-java5 plugin, it worked fine
<jdstrand> (in my testing)
<kees> that's more of a test-plan than a list of what actions need to happen.  is it maybe just "flush the entire mozilla PPA to hardy" ?  that works, if it's true.
<jdstrand> kees: oh, I have a personal list for the publication. is that what you mean?
<nxvl> jdstrand: can i get that list?
<kees> jdstrand: yeah, like "here are all the things we need to get into the archive", "here are all the current known caveats" etc
<jdstrand> kees: ie, I have a list of packages that are arch 'any' and 'all'
<nxvl> kees: http://paste.ubuntu.com/440456/ <- firefox rdepends
<nxvl> Xulrunner rdepends: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Lucid/FirefoxNewSupportModel/xulrunner-list
<jdstrand> nxvl: yes I can get that to you
<jdstrand> kees: well, it is basically just everything that is in mozilla ppa for hardy, yes (minus a couple of things)
<kees> jdstrand: okay
<kees> nxvl: thanks
<jdstrand> I have also grouped things by USN
<jdstrand> eg, firefox will have -1, it's extensions, etc will have -2
<jdstrand> nss will have a different USN
<jdstrand> and epiphany I am not publishing until there is a patch for the cert verification
<nxvl> so it's not just 930-1?
<jdstrand> (and by extension, webkit)
<jdstrand> nxvl: 930-1 is for firefox
<jdstrand> nxvl: that will be for hardy and lucid
<kees> jdstrand: it sounds like you're in fine shape.  for us following along (at least me), I'd like to see some kind of list of tasks (publish all of mozilla ppa, fix epiphany, etc)
<jdstrand> nxvl: 930-2 will be for all the rdepends
<kees> jdstrand: but if it'll all be over sooner than such a list could be created, skip it
<jdstrand> nxvl: 930-3 will likely be jaunty and karmic's 3.6.4
<jdstrand> nxvl: though, if there are regressions, it might be higher
<jdstrand> kees: I can write a quick page explaining it
<nxvl> kees: i've been asking for that list since i jumped into the loop, still haven't got it
<jdstrand> I also talked to them about publishing 24 later than upstream releases
<nxvl> chrisccoulson told me he was going to make one, but still no luck
<jdstrand> this is pretty normal for us (unless there is an earth shattering vuln)
<jdstrand> upstream is still iterating on some stuff
<kees> nxvl: it sounds like it's a large and complex set of things, which defies documentation.  :)
<nxvl> kees: yup
<jdstrand> so the ff build that is in the mozilla ppa is likely to change
<jdstrand> I'll write it from my perspective and ask them to review it
<nxvl> kees: but i kinda need it, i need to reproduce the entire update, but i'm specting to use the USNs to do so
<jdstrand> nxvl: we can talk after the meeting
<nxvl> jdstrand: :D
<jdstrand> beyond the ff and friends update
<jdstrand> I'm on community this week, and am following up on several embargoed issues
<jdstrand> I have several items to bring up after mdeslaur and sbeattie
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're next
<mdeslaur> hello
<mdeslaur> So, I'm still hacking away at mysql updates
<mdeslaur> I'll be publishing them this week
<mdeslaur> and I am on triage
<mdeslaur> and will take a look at php5 next to see if there are patches available for the month of php bugs yet
<mdeslaur> if that doesn't pan out, I might start trying to backport the maverick's webkit to earlier releases to fix all the CVEs
<mdeslaur> that's it for me
<sbeattie> I don't have much, I'm still in transition from QA
<sbeattie> I set up what I think is a working sbuild/schroot environment (great docs, jdstrand)
<jdstrand> \o/
<sbeattie> This week I should probably test it out :-), start looking at cve triage, and generate a new gpg key to replace my current nearly expired one
<sbeattie> (interviews for my QA replacement should start this week \o/)
<kees> sbeattie: are you going to go the SHA2 route?
<sbeattie> kees: I might as well, unless you guys think otherwise.
<kees> sbeattie: I think it's a great opportunity to test it.  :)
<sbeattie> kees: that was my thought as well. :)
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: there's a blueprint to test the SHA2 keys with different email clients
<jdstrand> yeah, we are each assigned one
<jdstrand> I have kmail, but have not tested it yet
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: right, poking at firegpg after I gen'ed a new key was on my todo list.
<mdeslaur> cool
<sbeattie> anyway, that's all I have that's relevant here.
<kees> okay
<kees> [topic] aa upstream meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  aa upstream meeting
<kees> so, I'll propose a meeting on the aa mailing list.  any starting preferences?
<sbeattie> Not particularly, +1 to having one.
<sbeattie> Holding it at a time that's convenient to arekm on oftc would be helpful, IMO.
<kees> IRC, likely early in the US day to get anyone from EU TZs in too.
<jjohansen> no preferences from me either
<kees> oh, where is arekm?
<jjohansen> russia
<kees> okay, noted.
<jjohansen> or at least that is what I remember it as
<kees> [topic] jdstrand topic #1 of "several"  ;)
<MootBot> New Topic:  jdstrand topic #1 of "several"  ;)
<ScottK> IIRC "Russia" only narrows it down to about 8 time zones.
<kees> heh
<jjohansen> :)
<kees> jdstrand: whatcha got for us?
<jdstrand> 1. usn publication
<jdstrand> we need to either poke newz2000 about getting this to work like before, or define the interim procedues
<jdstrand> procedures
<jdstrand> we are behind a few atm
<kees> I have now poked newz2000
<jdstrand> oh heh
<jdstrand> ok
<kees> I have 3 different screen scrapers at this point ...
<jdstrand> yeah, we have published 946-1, 947-1, 948-1 and 947-2
<kees> and I built a new template for doing refreshes
<kees> yeah
<jdstrand> ETOOMANYSCREENSCRAPES
<jdstrand> ok
<kees> well, "different" is really just a few lines different, but yeah.
<jdstrand> 2. I'd also like to discuss rotation duties
<jdstrand> it came up this morning that mdeslaur set the topic to me as triager again. he did the right thing by looking at the scedule
<jdstrand> but, because of vacation, I was triager last week, so it seemed odd
<kees> the schedule was just a tool to help us plan into the future.  it should serve reality, rather than the other way around.
<jdstrand> I'm not totally sure what the best solution is, and if it is 'honor thy schedule' then fine
<jdstrand> but, I thought we could perhaps be more flexible with this, and always do a certain order
<kees> i.e., I'm fine to ditch the schedule if it's a hassle to keep in sync with reality
<jdstrand> kees: yes, but I didn't want to have to adjust the schedule after each vacation
<jdstrand> ok cool
<mdeslaur> so, how do we determine who does what?
<mdeslaur> a rotation?
<mdeslaur> monday morning, I'm pretty groggy, so it's got to be simple :)
<jdstrand> so what if we did a rotation like: k:triager, j: community, m:happy, s:happy followed by k:community, j:happy, m:happy, s:tirager, ...
<kees> mdeslaur: yeah, our standing rotation seems to be working, but if we want to keep the schedule, we just need to adjust it when vacations happen
<jdstrand> ie, we always have the same 'ordering' of people
<jdstrand> but on vacations we deviate and have flexibility to adjust
<mdeslaur> ok
<jdstrand> this is basically our current schedule, without actually maintaining it
<sbeattie> that seems okay from here
<jdstrand> (it is what I do when chaning the topic-- I never look at the schedule)
<jdstrand> I can update the wiki to put this in terms that is easy to understand if we are all agreed
<mdeslaur> fine with me
<jdstrand> kees: ^
<kees> jdstrand: +1
<jdstrand> cool
<kees> okay, sounds like we have a stable USN publication procedure now, though it requires a webadmin push a button each time.
<jdstrand> 2.5. is it worth changing the /topic each week in #ubuntu-hardened for the above? at least for triager and community
<kees> jdstrand: perhaps only for the community role?  kind of like IS's "vangaurd" role.
<kees> who is on triage doesn't seem entirely interesting for #u-h audience.
<jdstrand> kees: re usn pub> that is not totally satisfactory, since we publish at non-webadmin-available times. that said, if it has changed, can you update UpdateProcedures or somewhere else?
<jdstrand> kees: re community> sure, that makes sense
<kees> jdstrand: yup, I will.  gonna get the correct scraper ready and publish the missing ones, update docs, etc.
<jdstrand> thanks
<jdstrand> kees: is this an interim thing or what we can expect going forward?
<jdstrand> kees: (usn)
<kees> jdstrand: sounds like it's a going-forward thing.  which just means we get to push for an automatic USN-db-reading module, IMO.
<jdstrand> agreed
<kees> okay, other stuff, anyone?
<jdstrand> I still have more
 * kees notes that several != 2.5.  ;)
<jdstrand> 3. we need to talk about task rotations at some point (ie security-m-task-rotation)
<jdstrand> this is different than weekly duty rotations
<jdstrand> this is rotating who does kernel, firefox, etc, etc
<mdeslaur> why don't we talk about this now?
<jdstrand> if we even want to do the rotation
<jdstrand> (and I have two more related items)
<jdstrand> well, related to each other, not this
<kees> what are our areas of biggest need here?  kernel and firefox, yes?
<kees> we have other stuff like moodle, php, but they're less common still
<sbeattie> will chromium issues be growing to match?
<jdstrand> those are the biggest, but others like webkit and poppler might be worth including
<kees> sbeattie: probably, though both ff and chromium are changing shape, so no real idea
<jdstrand> sbeattie: I imagine 'firefox' really means 'browser - webkit'
<kees> jdstrand: ah yeah, webkit and poppler.
<kees> so, I think there are two ways we could go: mentoring and rotation.
<kees> rotation requires mentoring.
<jdstrand> oo.o is also a big one, but happens infrequently and isn't that hard to get into if one follows the QRT docs
<kees> the question would be "do we just train up the other people, or do we train them and start a full-blown rotation of publication duties" ?
<jdstrand> kees: hold on. I'm not sure we are in agreement on whether task rotation is beneficial. mdeslaur?
<kees> jdstrand: good point.
<jdstrand> I for one, am in favor
<jdstrand> (but still have an open mind)
<mdeslaur> I think training is beneficial, I think rotation is detrimental
<kees> I'm in favor of the procedures not being a dark art.  I'm not sure if rotation would reduce efficiency, though.
<jdstrand> I don't think it would reduce efficiency either
<jdstrand> but, it might reduce burnout, which could be a real concern
<kees> well, let's start with cross-training first, since it's required.  and we can go from there?
<jdstrand> and, I don't think a 'quick' training is really all that helpful
<sbeattie> jdstrand: more like "pair usn publishing"?
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: I'm all for task rotation if burnout is a problem
<jdstrand> eg, kees showed me the kernel stuff a couple of times, but I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it except in an extreme emergnecy
<kees> right, we'd need to have someone fully shadowing the lead.
<kees> sbeattie: yeah
<jdstrand> pair usn publishing would be a part of the training, certainly
<jdstrand> but how long does that go on for?
<jdstrand> ie, during training, we expect inefficiency since two people are doing it
<jdstrand> if there is a rotation, then that iniefficiency is minimized, since it gets down to one person again
<kees> maybe the output should be documentation?
<jdstrand> kees: yes
<mdeslaur> definitely
<jdstrand> absolutely
<kees> i.e. the shadow writes up documentation about that specific update methodology.
<jdstrand> in fact, I think that is probably the most important aspect
<jdstrand> we will get good docs out of the trainer, and the trainee
<jdstrand> or the trainie/shadow writes it, sure
<kees> and once that's "done", the shadow is done, and maybe someone else steps up to shadow, following the docs, and if they're happy with it, then 3 people know the routine, and we can talk about rotation at that point.
<jdstrand> I still think that people doing it for a period of time is worthwhile... to internalize it
 * kees nods
<jdstrand> but sure
<jdstrand> docs with shadowing first
<jdstrand> as such, I don't think that poppler/webkit should be involved
<kees> sounds good.
<jdstrand> it is really just kernel/browsers that need docs, since the publication is only different for them
<kees> so, given ff's transition, that should probably wait a bit?
<jdstrand> certainly not this week ;)
<kees> heh
<jdstrand> but, soon is fine
<kees> let's start with kernel then?
<jdstrand> the whole rdepends fiasco is a one time deal
 * kees nods
<jdstrand> after that it is back to the old publication methods
<jdstrand> and it isn't nearly as different as the kernel, so yes, I think the kernel first
<kees> okay.  who wants to shadow first?  :)
<jdstrand> well, actually, it is quite different in the publication parts... but the building is similar
<jdstrand> kees: when is the next kernel update? next month?
<kees> jdstrand: yeah, next month.
<jdstrand> well, since I don't mind documenting, I can do it
<jdstrand> I've also seen it a bit already...
<jdstrand> unless someone else want it?
<mdeslaur> oh god no :)
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie: ^
<kees> cool.  Is another group waiting for this channel, or can we continue to go over our hour?
<jdstrand> hehe
<jdstrand> what I have left can go off this channel
<kees> okay, let's switch to #u-h then.  anything else quickly?
<jdstrand> not from me
<kees> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:04.
<kees> ok thanks!
<czajkowski> robbiew: you rock!
<robbiew> heh...I try ;)
<Pendulum> robbiew: I'm just +1 what czajkowski said :)
<robbiew> Pendulum: thnx....hopefully we can start nailing down locations much earlier too
<robbiew> that's the next step
<czajkowski> robbiew: finally, makes so much sense for community people to be able to plan and book annual leave or save up cash! thanks
<robbiew> see...we hear you ;)
<czajkowski> robbiew: we'll keep you!
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-08
<happyaron> Will Asia Oceania board meeting start in 10 minutes?
<Vantrax> yes
<happyaron> thx
<ZachK_> good morning all
<BasicXP> morning
<ZachK_> BasicXP: ah hello
<Vantrax> who do we have from the board here?
<malamut> me I think)
<Vantrax> not for the board to evaluate, members of the board
<malamut> o! Then like previos meeting - nobody))
<malamut> I hope it isn't so...
<Vantrax> me too malamut
 * ZachK_ hopes the board will show
<happyaron> how many board member is required?
<happyaron> freeflying: ping, needs board member to start meeting, :)
<Vantrax> not so much to start, just need a few more to vote on anythin
 * elky looks at the page and tilts head
<elky> Am I reading that right?
<Vantrax> readin what right?
<elky> looked at the applicant list?
<Vantrax> yer
<freeflying> hi
<Vantrax> we have a few
<ajmitch> elky: there aren't that many :)
<elky> Recognise any names?
<Vantrax> we may as well get started
<Vantrax> I do
<Vantrax>  one BIG name
<ajmitch> not at all...
<Vantrax> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 05:01. The chair is Vantrax.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<freeflying> elky: can we do vote today?
<Vantrax> sound off for the board, who do we have?
<elky> o/
<freeflying> I saw a lot applicants on the list
<ZachK_> four of the applicants don't seem to be here.....yet
<malamut> hmm, sorry, I have some problems with english, but I'm here))
<happyaron> ZachK_: well, Destine and you are here, :)
<ZachK_> check that...only three arn't
<Destine> I amï½
<elky> one can probably be summoned by twitter...
<ZachK_> ah Destine you are indeed...missed you entirely
<Vantrax> lets give it a few more minutes for a few more to come in
<Vantrax> amachu is away today
<elky> do we have quorum though?
<Vantrax> not yet
<ajmitch> lifeless may be lurking around still
<Vantrax> im pretty sure its still 4 for quorum
<elky> lifeless: hello?
<Vantrax> can other board memebers count for quorum?
<elky> yes
<elky> we've done it numerous times
<Vantrax> good paultag gives us one more
 * ZachK_ hands paultag a cup o' java
<paultag> Are we talking about ZachK_'s membership?
<Vantrax> okies then
<Vantrax> paultag: were still making quorum, now that your here too we have enough
<Vantrax> i think...
<elky> paultag, I dunno, is he being bribed with that cuppa? ;)
<paultag> elky, >:D
 * ZachK_ doesn't bribe.....ever
 * ZachK_ was just being a good friend....
<paultag> Hey, I'll take a coffee bribe any day
<ZachK_> :D
<Vantrax> ajmitch: your on one of the other boards arent you?
<ajmitch> Vantrax: no
<elky> Vantrax, he's a professional lurk.
<ajmitch> used to be on motu council way back, but no longer :)
<Vantrax> yeah, i thought that was the case
<Vantrax> boo:P
<ajmitch> sorry
<Vantrax> still one short then
 * ajmitch just looked at IRC at the wrong time
<elky> Vantrax, eh? you, me, freeflying, paultag?
<Vantrax> oh yeah, freeflying >.<
<Vantrax> my bad
<paultag> :)
<Vantrax> okies who was first Nasir Khan Saikat you around
<elky> not in the channel according to the nick he registered
<Vantrax> nope
<Vantrax> I know malamut is here
<elky> malamut is though
<malamut> yes
<elky> and we're already 10 mins in
<ZachK_> all hail malamut!
<Vantrax> Malamut your up, give us your intro
<malamut> well, at fist sorry for my english...
<Vantrax> long as we can understand the english, its all fine. If not we can always ask for clarification. Give us a short intro on what you do in the Ubuntu community and why we should approve you for membership
<malamut> I'm a one of active members of Russian Ubuntu Community. I live in Saint-Petersburg, Russia, work system administrator. I've helped users with Ubuntu since 7.10, now I try to garthe russian dokumentation on single site - help.ubuntu.ru
<malamut> I'm an author of Russian Ubuntu Guide also
<jdub> (hello, apologies for almost missing the meeting -- thanks to elky for poking me)
<malamut> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-russian-guide
<Vantrax> You run that whole site malamut?
<Vantrax> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-russian-guide
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-russian-guide
<malamut> Well, I'm a leder of Wiki team. And also help with DokuWiki and some technical questions
<malamut> and I've made all structure, rules etc for this resource
<malamut> help.ubuntu.ru
<ZachK_> very nice work my man
<Vantrax> Questions anyone? Still working out google translate:P?
<ZachK_> I'm reading the lp page right now translated to english via google chrome's translator
<Vantrax> Happy to vote?
<elky> Vantrax, not yet
<malamut> there is on-line version of guide at http://help.ubuntu.ru/manual
<elky> malamut, do you have much to do with the IRC channel for the team?
<malamut> no, I don't use IRC, I only helps peoples at russian ubuntu forum
<elky> malamut, ah ok then. No further question from me.
<elky> Vantrax, ready when you are.
<wzssyqa> malamut: no more works to show us>
<elky> Is anyone here to cheer for malamut?
<malamut> well, all is on my wiki page. I think, I've said about major
<Vantrax> everyone happy to vote?
<freeflying> +1
<elky> Yep. Want to prod the bot?
<Vantrax> [VOTE]
<MootBot> Please vote on: .
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Vantrax> bah
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Vantrax> <make that vote on malamut for membership>
 * Vantrax prods people to vote
<BasicXP> should I vote?
<Vantrax> only if your on an RMB
<freeflying> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from freeflying. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<freeflying> again
<BasicXP> oh ok, not me :)
<freeflying> :)
<elky> paultag?
<paultag> Howdy
<paultag> Oh
<paultag> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<elky> malamut, congratulations.
<Vantrax> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<freeflying> MootBot: congrats
<malamut> thank you!
<paultag> malamut, well done :)
<happyaron> malamut: congrats!
<paultag> malamut, 'grats
<Agafonov> malamut: \o/
<Destine> malamut, congrats
<Vantrax> Okies jdub... give us the short version:P
<jdub> good morning
<takdir> sorry i'm late :(
<jdub> i'm renewing, so not sure how detailed this needs to be :-)
<jdub> salient details on the wiki page of course
<elky> jdub, aww... only "good morning" now?
<ajmitch> no freedom lovers here?
 * elky ^5's ajmitch
<ZachK_> lol
<Vantrax> personally im ready to vote, but...
<jdub> i'm mostly renewing because i started a new blog about the devel branch
<elky> jdub, we can just turn this in to a pick on jdub meeting if you like :D
<freeflying> its remind us maybe we shall have a renew process
<ajmitch> jdub: it's a nice summary of changes you're doing there :)
<jdub> and have been enjoying my ppa enough that i should really start pushing those somewhere more useful ;-)
<jdub> am i missing anything that should be covered?
<elky> You still haven't finished your greeting.
<Vantrax> unless someone has an objection... ill start the vote, paultag has a time constraint
<elky> Vantrax, go for it.
<Vantrax> [VOTE] jdub for membership renewal
<MootBot> Please vote on:  jdub for membership renewal.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<freeflying> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from freeflying. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<takdir> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from takdir. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<freeflying> jdub: welcome back :)
<jdub> thanks everyone :-)
<elky> oh, we have a 5th here now, we don't need paultag anymore.
<happyaron> jdub: :)
<Vantrax> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<elky> jdub, welcome back dude.
<Vantrax> Woo, thanks for staying paultag
<Vantrax> welcome back jdub
<Vantrax> Destine you still idling here?
<ajmitch> jdub: welcome back
<Destine> yes
<Destine> Hi, good evening from China.
<Destine> I am Eleanor Chen, and I am one of the leading members in Ubuntu China LoCo
<Destine> Most of my contributions are in the field of l10n and loco event.
<Destine> please refer to my wiki:https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EleanorChen
<Vantrax> Great testimonials btw
<Destine> i hosted the Ubuntu 10.04 LTS Release Party in Beijing China few weeks ago
<Destine> Vantrax, thx.
<Destine> also, i translated and rewrote the Ubuntu Desktop Course's Chinese Edition
<Destine> I have done a lot of promotions since i was in senior high.
<Vantrax> Questions?
<elky> None from me.
<Vantrax> What do you plan on doing after getting Ubuntu membership, what do you want your future involvment in Ubuntu to be?
<Destine> Vantrax, since i am a girl, my first concern would be try to promote it among women.
<Vantrax> are you a member of Ubuntu Women?
<Destine> Vantrax, in Launchpad, yes.
<elky> Destine, \o/
<Vantrax> involved with them at all? or still getting started
<Destine> Vantrax, getting started, i need sometime to do prepare work for starting it in China.
<Vantrax> We can point you in the right direction
<Vantrax> Unless there are any other questions, lets vote
<Destine> Vantrax, thx.
<Destine> :)
<Vantrax> imo elky and pleia2 are good places to start talking about that, elky would have a better idea:P
<Vantrax> [VOTE] Destine for Ubuntu Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Destine for Ubuntu Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<ZachK_> Vantrax: dont' forget akgraner as she's part of that too
<takdir> Destine have a good wiki and testimonial too
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<freeflying> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from freeflying. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<takdir> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from takdir. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Vantrax> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<freeflying> Destine: congrats
<Vantrax> Well done Destine
<happyaron> Destine: congrat!
<ZachK_> congrats Destine
<wzssyqa> congrat!
<Destine> Thank you.
<Destine> Thank you all.
<Vantrax> Ok, ZachK_ thanks for waiting patiently. Your up
<ZachK_> Vantrax: thanks
<ZachK_> Ok Zach is the name...started using Ubuntu when 8.04 was still Beta...had no idea what to do or where to get started so I looked into the Ubuntu Beginners Team
<ZachK_> I've now been part of that team for almost a year and since that time I've become a mentor for that team, I lead a Wiki Team, and I have been working with the Ubuntu Weekly News project
<ZachK_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZachK_ is my wiki page which will list more of what i do...
<ZachK_> I also do a lot of IRC...helping in the #Ubuntu channel as well as the BT channels, and i try to hit the forums as much as possible
 * ZachK_ is open to any and all questions
<Vantrax> Whats next for you?
<ZachK_> Well my future goals are to continue helping the new users to linux...I also want to learn how to code using Python/Java and I aim to learn how to Triage Bugs on Launchapd
<ZachK_> "Launchpad
<ZachK_> Figured if I am really good at the Wiki/Doc markup python is a logical step forward...plus python is just cool
<Vantrax> Anyone here to cheer for ZachK_
 * kermiac cheers for ZachK_
<kermiac> he does some awesome work in the UB Team
<Vantrax> paultag was unable to stay but he sent this to me earlier: <paultag> Vantrax, I endorse ZachK_'s work on the UBT ( Ubuntu Beginners Team ) totally. He has shown real drive and motivation with regards to leading our Wiki team. I thought for sure that ZachK_ would have quit the team in the first month. I tend to see a lot of people who are "over-motivated", and they don't last long. ZachK_ proved me wrong. I was 100% off
<Vantrax> base, and I had no idea that drive was just they way ZachK_ works.
<Vantrax> Ill add my own endorsement to that from watchin him grow as part of the team over the last eyar
<ZachK_> thanks Vantrax
<ZachK_> my wiki page also lists testimonials from the likes of akgraner and joeb454 also swoody
<Vantrax> Anyone else have a question for ZachK_ or ready to vote
<elky> bring on the votes
<Vantrax> [VOTE] ZachK_ for Ubuntu Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  ZachK_ for Ubuntu Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Vantrax> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Vantrax. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<freeflying> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from freeflying. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<takdir> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from takdir. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Vantrax> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<Vantrax> Well done ZachK_
<kermiac> congratulations ZachK_!!
<ZachK_> thanks very much all
<Destine> ZachK_, congrats
<Vantrax> congrats to everyone
<ZachK_> thanks very much and congrats to the other new members
<Vantrax> Email will go out to the news team tonight or tomorrow to let everyone know
 * ejat sorry late join ... 
<elky> Vantrax, thanks for chairing
<Vantrax> Okies last call for nasirkhan
<ZachK_> he's not here
<Vantrax> One last time, Amachu no longer has the time/will to be the Secretary for the board
<elky> nickserv doesn't even know the nick, so...
<Vantrax> er item not time
<ZachK_> elky: sounds like he gave up maybe?
<elky> ZachK_, it's not registered
<ZachK_> elky: hmm
<ZachK_> weird
<Vantrax> I volunteered to take over, unless anyone has any objection or would like to do it?
<ZachK_> Vantrax: what's the Secretarial duties?
<Vantrax> you have to be on the board ZachK_:P
<elky> Vantrax, you did a good job tonight, no objection here
<ZachK_> oh
<ibuclaw> o/ Vantrax
<elky> Vantrax, you also have better connectivity than amachu :)
<Vantrax> You add the new members, chair the meeting, and send out the emails
 * ejat also no objection 
 * ZachK_ thinks Vantrax would be a great secretary
<takdir> +1 for secretary :)
<Destine> +1
<freeflying> +1
<Vantrax> okies, ill update the wiki page and get that email out.
<ejat> +1
<ZachK_> +1 for Vantrax secretary
<freeflying> Vantrax: thx
<Vantrax> thanks for coming everyone, grats again to all the new members
<ejat> !ping jdub ..
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<Vantrax> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 05:58.
<ZachK_> I do have a question...what about the factoid thing?
<ZachK_> I mean hostname
<elky> cloaks? you ask in #ubuntu-irc
<ZachK_> ok
<BasicXP> you guys reminded me to ask for a cloak too :) thx!
<ZachK_> thanks elky...do i just say i'm now an ubuntu member? that seems kinda easy to claim
<Vantrax> your email will take a little while
<ZachK_> ok
<Vantrax> ZachK_: your added to the group on launchpad, thats harder to fake
<ZachK_> Vantrax: i got the Launchpad one so true
<elky> ZachK_, launchpad will confirm for you, so show them your launchpad url
<ejat> welcome back to jdub
<Vantrax> your email will be whatever the launchpad login is
<ZachK_> thanks again all
<freeflying> Vantrax: so we done today?
<Vantrax> yep, thats it
<ZachK_> thanks all..
 * ZachK_ out to do more wiki stuff
<Vantrax> you are released to your beds, dinner, family, gaming... whatever:P
<ZachK_> lol
<jdub> thanks ejat
<jdub> bye all
<ejat> hmm .. jdub leave already .. still remember jdub bad experience when come to MY :( ..
<elky> ejat, he's most responsive on twitter these days
<ejat> yeah ...
<lifeless> hi
<lifeless> bah sorry guys, getting adjusted to the right sTZ :(
<elky> lifeless, that's ok, we managed
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> ping ogra, dyfet, GrueMaster,
<mpoirier> o/ good morning.
<NCommander> morning!
<NCommander> morning GrueMaster
<dyfet> morning
<GrueMaster> meh
<ogra> moo
<ogra> hey mpoirier
<mpoirier> hey ogra.
 * NCommander suspects this is going tobe a short meeting
 * ogra wonders if we get a link from NCommander 
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100608
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100608
<ogra> sweet
<NCommander> [topic] Action Items from June 1th, 2010
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items from June 1th, 2010
<ogra> heh
<NCommander> [topic]GrueMaster to assemble list on what SRU is going on with kernel team
<MootBot> New Topic: GrueMaster to assemble list on what SRU is going on with kernel team
<ogra> poor GrueMaster
<ogra> werent there c/o's from the former meeting too ?
<NCommander> yup
 * ogra doesnt see them
<GrueMaster> Just a sec.  Still loading my brain.
<NCommander> ugh, we'll be here for awhile then  :-/
<GrueMaster> Ok, on dove we have bug 509006.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 509006 in linux-mvl-dove (Ubuntu Lucid) "[dove] hibernation failed to resume" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/509006
<GrueMaster> On imx51 we have bug 559065 and bug 571192.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 559065 in linux-fsl-imx51 (Ubuntu Lucid) "ifconfig eth0 down will cause system hang after fec.c driver update" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/559065
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 571192 in linux-fsl-imx51 (Ubuntu Lucid) "suspend/resume is currently broken on imx51" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/571192
<ogra> NCommander, i see build-timeout discussion, and the linbnih/upstart issues on the c/o list but not on this weeks actions
<NCommander> argh oops
<ogra> (and response to davidms mail, but he's not here anyway)
<ogra> i expect c/o's anyway for everything, but we should not lose them
<ogra> GrueMaster, was the dsecond bug not depending on the first one ?
<NCommander> ogra: fixed
<ogra> thanks
<NCommander> c/o on all three for me
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> no complaints
<ogra> GrueMaster, were there no dove bugs ?
<NCommander> [topic]  * NCommander to discuss build timeout with lamont
<NCommander>  * NCommander to poke Keybuk on libnih
<NCommander>  * Entire team to respond to davidm's email on meeting times
<MootBot> New Topic:   * NCommander to discuss build timeout with lamont
<GrueMaster> Not sure.  I do know that both bug 509006 and bug 559065 have tested patches that have not been released.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 509006 in linux-mvl-dove (Ubuntu Lucid) "[dove] hibernation failed to resume" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/509006
<NCommander> oops
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 559065 in linux-fsl-imx51 (Ubuntu Lucid) "ifconfig eth0 down will cause system hang after fec.c driver update" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/559065
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile.html
<ogra> we're above trend
<ogra> we should do something about it :)
<ogra> preferably before friday (release meeting)
<ogra> we need to get 6-10 items done before that
<NCommander> I'm blocked on cjwatson on subarch detection, but thats relatively quick to implement once he can review my design
<ogra> to get below trend again
<NCommander> ARM softbootloader remains the same as usual
<ogra> NCommander, but you made a lot progress on image building
<ogra> we should be able to close two to three items there
<ogra> dyfet, how about you ? you have some very simple items on the imagebuilds without root spec
<NCommander> ogra: not quite yet. post-boot-* stuff still isn't fully done.
<ogra> NCommander, the missing bits are really trivial
<ogra> should be doable before fri.
<NCommander> ogra: ah, yes
<GrueMaster> I'll see if I can't get a test plan into iso.tracker for the preinstalled-sd-card-images-for-omap bp this week.
<ogra> i should be ready to provide a locally built image with jasper today or tomorrow
<NCommander> GrueMaster: excellent
<ogra> so you can play with something
<GrueMaster> cool
<ogra> the bad stuff about these images is that you have to dd them newly for each test
<ogra> thats a bit time consuming
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier)
<mpoirier> omap4 kernel ?
<ogra> nah
<ogra> we're waiting for TI on that one
<ogra> ndec isnt here though
<mpoirier> yes indeed.
<NCommander> ogra: I pinged him on it
<ogra> i know cooloney is working to integrate the panda patches into his PPA omap4 build
<mpoirier> correct.
<ogra> NCommander, did you mail him as requested (right after last meeting)
<ogra> so he actually knows about the meeting
<NCommander> ogra: I don't remember, although I remember talking to him on IRC
<ogra> NCommander, please mail him *NOW*
<ogra> so he can adjust for next week at least
<ogra> mpoirier, we have one XM bug with the omap3 kernel
<mpoirier> I'm currently fighting an SD card bug.
<ogra> do you know who in the omap team on kernel side has an XM ?
 * ogra thinks he remembers lag
<ogra> and there are bugs with the metapackage
<mpoirier> nop, no XM to the extent of my knowledge.
<mpoirier> I'll double check though.
<ogra> it still pulls in the lucid kernel
<ogra> i need to file them :P
<mpoirier> yes please.
 * ogra thinks thats all for kernel given cooloney isnt here 
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<ogra> i'll test our maverick omap3 kernel on the touchbook soon, but i dont expect it to actually work
<ogra> i think we had QA above somehow :)
<ogra> anything additionally GrueMaster ?
<GrueMaster> Nothing to report here.  No new bugs that I have seen in the packages.
<ogra> did you test maverick already ?
<GrueMaster> Same old bugs still exist though.
<ogra> i bet there are a ton :)
<GrueMaster> Somewhat.  I am doing daily package updates.
<ogra> wow, and nothing serious ?
<GrueMaster> f-spot still crashes the same way, even though it has a new release.
<ogra> pfft f-spot
<ogra> afaik the desktop team plans to replace it ?
<GrueMaster> I did not know that.
 * ogra isnt sure thats a roumor though
<ogra> ask them :)
<ogra> -> #ubuntu-desktop is that way :)
<GrueMaster> later, when I've had more caffeine.
<ogra> not that we should stop caring about f-spot, but if they replace it i wont cry :)
<ogra> NCommander, move ?
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<NCommander> (sorry, got a phone call I had to answer)
<ogra> dyfet, any news ?
<ogra> anything for us to sponsor
<NCommander> (sorry, back, had to take this case)
<NCommander> er
<NCommander> call
<ogra> thats fine
<ogra> seems we lost dyfet
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra> looks good :)
<ogra> jasper doesnt though
<NCommander> (sorry, back fully now, that was my vet)
<ogra> but i think we should have images ready real soon
 * ogra is trying to debug jasper atm, it does resize the partitions but not the filesystems for some reason
<ogra> once thats done and once NCommander has finished the debian-cd scripts we should be good
<ogra> there is a minor change to livecd-rootfs pending
<ogra> thats all from me for images
<ogra> NCommander, anything from you ?
<NCommander> w.r.t. to d-cd code, its most there, with some last odds and evens, but its coming together
<ogra> right
<NCommander> and I'm going to turn my phone off whenever we have a meeting
<ogra> we should have images by end of the week, latest start of next week
 * NCommander knocks on wood
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
<ogra> i'll be at LT from thu to sat so i probably cant merge the bits to make it this week
<ogra> depends if we manage to land all pieces tomorrow
<ogra> i have one organisational AOB for NCommander
 * NCommander hides
<ogra> the release meeting preparation meeting was somehow set to the same time we have a call on fridays
<ogra> are you ok with moving it before that call ?
 * NCommander looks at google cal
<ogra> i dont want to prepare release reports during a customer call :)
<NCommander> yeah, we can move that an hour back
<ogra> great
 * NCommander isn't thrilled at getting up early, but not a lot we can do
<ogra> yeah, during call is surely bad
<ogra> and the meeting is directly after the call
<NCommander> ogra: ndec just got emailed
<ogra> perfect
<ogra> oh
<NCommander> can I close it out?
<ogra> one announcement !
<NCommander> guess not
<ogra> we are being renamed !
<ogra> we're the "arm" team now
<ogra> not mobile anymore
<NCommander> Great. Now I just sent an email with the wrong team name in it
 * NCommander headthunks
<ogra> i'll walk through launchpad groups etc once david is back
<ogra> lets keep mobile until david is back
<ogra> it needs a lot organizational changes i suspect
<NCommander> works for me.
<ogra> also what do we do with #ubuntu-mobile ?
<ogra> redirect it ?
<ogra> leave it idling ?
 * ogra wishes persia was here 
<NCommander> ogra: we won't have persia for another two weeks
<ogra> he loves such restructuring stuff
<ogra> yeah
<NCommander> (aren't Japanese holidays great?)
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> didnt you think about moving out of the US ?
<ogra> seems a good place to live
<NCommander> I got blocked by familial requirements
<ogra> ah
<NCommander> Very expensive place to live
<NCommander> Still looking to move to Europe in due time though
<ogra> anyway, lets close the meeting
<NCommander> anyway
<NCommander> I think we can close it out
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:34.
<ogra> ++
<NCommander> wow
<NCommander> two weeks of fast meetings
<NCommander> I can get used to this
<ogra> well, the team got a lot smaller
<micahg> is there a DMB meeting?
<barry> should be i think
<BlackZ> micahg: yeah, it should
<BlackZ> but still not started
<stgraber> cjwatson and soren both said they won't be able to attend
<stgraber> I don't see cody or persia around on the channel
<stgraber> nixternal: ping
<stgraber> geser: ping
<BlackZ> stgraber: cody is crashed - ping timeout
<micahg> persia is on vacation I think
<barry> guess it's not happening then :/
<stgraber> (I'll only be able to attend until :30 as I mentioned on our mailing list, after that I may try on a 3G connection but it didn't work that well last time)
<stgraber> yeah, we won't have quorum it seems ...
<stgraber> IIRC we need 4 to have quorum in the DMB
<stgraber> and so far I'm the only one around ;)
<menesis> :(
<stgraber> I'll be staying around on IRC in case 3 others show up at the last minute but I wouldn't be too optimistic, sorry
<barry> i'm only available until :50, but i guess if they don't show up fairly soon, it's not happening
 * micahg just wanted to follow up about package set
<nixternal> stgraber: hola
 * geser is here
<BlackZ> so the DMB meeting will not start?
<geser> without quorum that doesn't make much sense as we would need to defer any votings
<BlackZ> <stgraber> I'll be staying around on IRC in case 3 others show up at the last minute but I wouldn't be too optimistic, sorry
<stgraber> got to go
<geser> I count current 3 DMB members and with 3 others definitely not being here the chances to reach quorum aren't that big
<BlackZ> geser: why 3?
<geser> BlackZ: nixternal, stgraber and geser
<BlackZ> I thought cody-somerville was around, so I'm wrong, sorry
<geser> at least his client is here
<BlackZ> heh
<geser> Cody can't attend either
<geser> so it definitely no quorum today, sorry
<barry> oh well, i guess we'll see you in 2 weeks ;)
<micahg> thanks anyways geser
<vish> @now
<ubottu> Current time in Etc/UTC: June 08 2010, 16:43:52
<JFo> \o/
 * jjohansen fades in
 * manjo zooms in
 * JFo adjusts jjohansen's levels :)
 * apw drops in with a thunmp
 * cking arrives \o/
<cnd>  /o\
<kamal> o/
 * ogasawara waves
 * cnd is cowering in fear
<JFo> I wondered
<lag>   ___ ___         .__  .__
<lag>  /   |   \   ____ |  | |  |   ____
<lag> \    Y    /\  ___/|  |_|  |_(  <_> )
<lag>  \___|_  /  \___  >____/____/\____/
<lag>        \/       \/
<cnd> uhhh
 * manjo sips coffee
 * apw slaps lag
<JFo> heh
 * lag giggles
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * manjo sips coffee
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics: (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics: (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (0 bugs, 13 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 2 Milestoned Bugs (5) ====
<JFo>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (50 across all packages (up 10)) ====
<JFo>  * 3 linux kernel bugs (down 2)
<JFo> === Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 14 blueprints
<JFo> *** NOTE: This listing includes HWE Blueprints***
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:122 (down 6 from last week) ====
<JFo>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on
<JFo>  * Breakdown by status:
<JFo>    http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-apparmor (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-apparmor
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-apparmor (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-apparmor
<jjohansen> started cross testing of compatibility patch and found some errors that need to fixed before it can be pulled in.  Will try to get that cleaned up today so we can pull in the latest version, and send it upstream.
<jjohansen> Caching patch fix - no progress still sitting on the back burner behind cold, compatibility patch, and EC2.
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-firewire-stack (manjo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-firewire-stack
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-firewire-stack (manjo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-firewire-stack
<manjo> nothing to report at this time
<manjo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-misc (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-misc
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-misc (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-misc
<apw> The two items slipped out of Alpha-1 are still outstanding, though neither is a release task.  The debian commonisation is currently progressing with Karmic master being retrofitted currently.  We expect to have Karmic and Lucid master both complete by Wednesday, ready for test uploads.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts (tgardner)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts (tgardner)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts
<tgardner> The Lucid LTS backport kernel is tracking Maverick at http://ppa.launchpad.net/kernel-ppa/ppa/ubuntu.
<tgardner> The current kernel and meta versions are linux-maverick-2.6.35-1.1~lucid1 and linux-meta-lts-backport-maverick-2.6.35.1.6.
<tgardner> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel
<jjohansen> pv-ops kernel has so far not been working out, and I am following up with Amazon.
<jjohansen> Started looking at fallback plan 1 of pv-on-HVM driver but I haven't been able to successfully build them yet (failing in the ballon driver atm).  I need to test building them on an older stock kernel yet.
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-tracing-support (cnd)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-tracing-support
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-tracing-support (cnd)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-tracing-support
<cnd> I sent a patch upstream for relative source paths for perf probe, waiting on feedback
<cnd> I took a closer look at trace-cmd and kernelshark
<cnd> I'm not convinced quite yet that we really need kernelshark
<cnd> so I may just package up trace-cmd when I get the chance
<cnd> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review (ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-ubuntu-delta-review
<ogasawara> I own the majority of the Alpha2 work items so will start closing those out shortly.
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-union-mounts (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-union-mounts
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-union-mounts (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-union-mounts
<apw> Waiting on testing from Foundations from updated kernels.  As part of the roll forward to v2.6.35-rc1 we have had to update AUFS2 as it no longer built.  We expect to have to update it again before v2.6.35 final regardless of whether union-mounts make it.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bug-handling (jfo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bug-handling (jfo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bug-handling
<JFo> Good progress on the wiki. There is now a Todo located at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/WikiToDo and a wiki gardening guide at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/WikiGardening Please use these references when working on the wiki pages.
<JFo> Thanks to apw for getting those up and going
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-upstart (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-upstart
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-upstart (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-upstart
<apw> We have patches pending for the remaining Alpha-1 deliverable, waiting on testing from Foundations.  We have also pulled forward the 'readahead was used' patches from Lucid testing to Maverick and pushed those to a further PPA for testing.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-reducing-dkms-packages-required-for-hardware-enablement (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-reducing-dkms-packages-required-for-hardware-enablement
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-reducing-dkms-packages-required-for-hardware-enablement (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-reducing-dkms-packages-required-for-hardware-enablement
<cking> Outcome was that "Tiger team" to discuss this to be set up by awe
<cking> Blueprint probably should be closed
<cking> ..
<apw> lets close it off and get it off the meeting
<cking> yep
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation (cking)
<cking> ..
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation
<cking> Added the following functionality to the firmware test suite:
<cking>   ACPI MCFG table test
<cking>   MTRR tests
<cking>   HPET sanity checks
<cking>   Simple Fan tests
<cking>   ACPI FADT table checks
<cking>   Simple Battery tests
<cking>   PCI Max Read Req sanity check
<cking>   BIOS EBDA check
<cking> Misc:
<cking>   Add in e820 region checking
<cking>   Generalised list handling
<cking>   Fix iasl + pipe I/O bug
<cking>   Re-organise lib headers
<cking> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Maverick (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Maverick (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We uploaded the 2.6.35-1.1 kernel which rebased us to 2.6.35-rc1.  I'll be uploading 2.6.35-2.2 within the hour.  This will rebase us to 2.6.35-rc2.  Please test if you are able to.
<ogasawara> Also, just a general reminder that Alpha 2 is Thurs July 1 (ie ~3weeks from today) so make sure you're on track with any work items that need doing.
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<bjf> Dapper:      2.6.15-55.84  (security)
<bjf> Hardy:       2.6.24-28.70  (security)
<bjf> Jaunty:      2.6.28-19.61  (security)
<bjf> Karmic:      2.6.31-22.60  (security)
<bjf>  - mvl-dove  2.6.31-214.28 (security)
<bjf>  - fsl-imx51 2.6.31-112.28 (security)
<bjf>  - ec2       2.6.31-307.15 (security)
<bjf> Lucid:       2.6.32-22.36  (security)
<bjf>  - mvl-dove  2.6.32-205.18 (security)
<bjf>  - fsl-imx51 2.6.31-608.14 (security)
<bjf>  - ti-omap   2.6.33-501.7  (security)
<bjf>  - qcm-msm   2.6.31-802.4  (security)
<bjf>  - ec2       2.6.32-306.11 (security)
<bjf>  - LBM       2.6.32-22.15  (waiting for acceptance to proposed)
<bjf> The initial security release for Lucid caused a regression for KVM. Though
<bjf> the same patch is in Karmic and Jaunty without problems. It has been reverted
<bjf> for Lucid and an additional upload was made (thanks apw).
<bjf> The current update to Lucid qcm-msm will be the last one as we lack testing
<bjf> hardware.
<bjf> Currently preparing proposed uploads to Lucid and Karmic and while being on
<bjf> those, updating the abstracted debian implementation (apw).
<bjf> Lucid proposed will contain upstream stable 2.6.32.11-15 and 2.6.33.3-5 for
<bjf> DRM (amongst a lot of other changes). Target for upload to proposed for the
<bjf> master branch is Wednesday.
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo> 15 Maverick Bugs (up 10)
<JFo> 946 Lucid Bugs (down 59)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-potential ====
<JFo>   * 7 maverick bugs (up 2)
<JFo>   * 234 lucid bugs (down 28; to be converted to regression-release)
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 25 lucid bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 9 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 5 jaunty bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 hardy bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 128 lucid bugs (down 18)
<JFo>   * 50 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 20 jaunty bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 3 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 1 lucid bug (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> please note that we are at a downward slope for Lucid bugs
<JFo> this makes me happy.
<JFo> ..
<apw> o/
<bjf> apw, ?
<apw> are those lucid bugs going away as fixed or as timed out
<apw> expired whatever thats called ?
<JFo> mostly timed out
<apw> k thanks ..
<JFo> np
<bjf> 5[TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> The next bug day will be next Tuesday. We will be focusing on working Confirmed bugs and getting them to either Incomplete, by waay of testing or information requests, or Triaged based on the completeness of the bug. My goal is to work through all of the Confirmed bugs to get them in the correct state and work out the best method for addressing them based on conversation with Andy yesterday. I also want to have a Team bug day much like we did this
<JFo>  week to work the Top 50 list. I am open to having be two half days on Friday and Monday again if that worked out for everyone last time.
<JFo> any suggestions/objections?
<JFo> was the two half days more useful than one whole one?
<ogasawara> I like the half days
<JFo> cool
<JFo> anyone else?
<apw> i think half is better over all as its easier to do one or the other
<apw> but i didn't manage to do either ..
<JFo> heh
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<apw> o/
<bjf> apw, go
<apw> just a reminder that the wiki update is a team task, please do look over the ToDo and see if there are things you know about and can help clean up
<apw> ..
<JFo> o/
<bjf> JFo, go
<manjo> apw, is there a pointer to the todo ?
<JFo> just wanted to mention that I have been invited to the QA meeting tomorrow to discuss the Triage Summit
<manjo> ie link
<apw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/WikiToDo
<manjo> thanks
<JFo> so I suspect there will be some more chat on it and I will be sending out an e-mail this week to kick things off
<JFo> ..
<ogasawara> hrm, looks like the WikiTodo is empty?
<manjo> yeah
<apw> ogasawara, not on my screen
<manjo> apw, its blank ofr me too
<apw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/WikiToDo
<cking> looks fine to me
<bjf> not on my screen
<ogasawara> hrm, mine just shows the letter "a"
<JFo> I see tons of outstanding items
<apw> thats the wrong todo ogasawara
<apw> thats the whole wiki one
<ogasawara> ah, oops, helps if i open the right link
<apw> :)
<JFo> heh
<bjf> last call for open items
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:20.
<JFo> thanks bjf
<kamal> bjf: thanks
<apw> thanks
<cking> bjf, ta
<lag> \o/
<zul> hi
<smoser> o/
<Daviey> \o
<jjohansen> \o
<mathiaz> o/
<alexm> o/
<hggdh> ~o~
<SpamapS> \o/
<ttx> \o
 * sommer probably won't be available
<jiboumans> o/
<smoser> hggdh, does the butterfly
<jiboumans> morning folks
<jiboumans> smoser: hi, didn't expect you today
<jiboumans> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:00. The chair is jiboumans.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jiboumans> let's get rolling
<hggdh> smoser: freestyle...
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Review action points
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review action points
<jiboumans> all to run ISO testing coverage on alpha1
<jiboumans> i didn't see any big smoke, so i trust all went well?
<ttx> yes, relatively
<mathiaz> jiboumans: that's because the wind was blowing in the *other* direction
<ttx> for alpha2 we'll coordinate and share the load better
<Daviey> hmm.. UEC doesn't work with the current Maverick kernel
<SpamapS> Nothing horribly broken, but I found a few things.. lamp-server doesn't install /usr/bin/mysql for instance.
<zul> besides its only alpha :)
<ttx> we had ~50% tset coverage which is good for alpha1 but not enough for alpha2
<jiboumans> it does seem a little spotty this way
<jiboumans> ttx, can you take it upon you to coordinate this for alpha2?
<ttx> yes.
<jiboumans> [ACTION] ttx to coordinate iso testing for alpha2
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to coordinate iso testing for alpha2
<jiboumans> ok, next
<jiboumans> ACTION: smoser to ensure cloud images make it to the alpha1 iso tracker
<ttx> that was done.
<smoser> done. there, tested, pure perfection
<jiboumans> smoser++
<ttx> smoser: now that slangasek doesn't do release mgt anymore, you need contacts in the release team
<jiboumans> ACTION: smoser to coordinate with jjohansen and ttx to provide a more detailed work item overview for server-maverick-cloud-kernel-upgrades
<ttx> that could do it as well
<smoser> ttx, yes, i need to train someone there. cjwatson just poked me and had me do it. which was fine.
<smoser> training is pretty easy, but we should set up someone with an account on the machine and such.
<ttx> jiboumans: please action smoser on training someone else in the release team on cloud image release
<jiboumans> [ACTION] smoser on training someone else in the release team on cloud image release
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser on training someone else in the release team on cloud image release
<ttx> jiboumans: that someone can be me if need be
<smoser> jiboumans, i'll have more detain on server-maverick-cloud-kernel-upgrades sometime soon.  recent events have somewhat changed the plan there. (server-maverick-cloud-kernel-upgrades)
<smoser> detail even
<jiboumans> smoser: anything worth updating us on?
<smoser> no
<jiboumans> ok, carrying over then
<jiboumans> [ACTION] smoser to coordinate with jjohansen and ttx to provide a more detailed work item overview for server-maverick-cloud-kernel-upgrades
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to coordinate with jjohansen and ttx to provide a more detailed work item overview for server-maverick-cloud-kernel-upgrades
<jiboumans> ACTION: sommer to present list of sections that need input from server team
<jiboumans> sommer: i saw updates to the blueprint. anything to fill us in on during the doc section later or should we postpone till next week?
<jiboumans> guess we missed that window
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Maverick development (jib)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick development (jib)
<jiboumans> First up: Alpha2 subcycle status (ttx)
<ttx> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ttx> The biurndown chart is a little twisted due to sudden appartition of UEC blueprints and more
<ttx> All High specs should be at 25% completion right now and this isn't the case
<zul> working on it..
<ttx> zul:  yours is at 44%, not bad
<jiboumans> worrying that at least 3 of the high spcs have 0/1 items done and no status update
<SpamapS> cloud-datastores has been in flux due to upstream's odd position
<ttx> SpamapS: and we'll discuss that later today
<jiboumans> friendly but final reminder: update the status on monday EOB, keep track of your work items
<Daviey> ttx: My % will be a little odd this cycle as 4 out of 7 are related to the weekly update
<smoser> i'm making some progress on the ebsmount ones, getting help from Alon of turnkey. we have a reasonable plan there.
<ttx> Daviey: did you merge eucalyptus yet ?
<jiboumans> all: i want to see these updates reflected in workitems AND your blueprints tatus
<ttx> all: if you are under 25% the status line should explain why
<Daviey> ttx: Sort of.. i need to borrow you (hopefully tommorrow), to do a team review.. delta is LARGE.
<jiboumans> [ACTION] all to keep their specs uptodate with workitems (4-16 hours each) and update their status monday EOB
<MootBot> ACTION received:  all to keep their specs uptodate with workitems (4-16 hours each) and update their status monday EOB
<ttx> in the same vein, your personal completion rate should be ~25% now
<Daviey> ttx: If you are happy, then i'd like to upload it tommorrow.
<ttx> Daviey: ping me tomorrow so that we spend time on it
<Daviey> ttx: Great!
<ttx> smoser: are you fully back ?
<jiboumans> hggdh, smoser: you both have a large amount of WI but 0/1 completion. do we need to cull specs?
<smoser> i'm planning on some half days this week
<smoser> as i said above, i'm making reasonableprogress on the ebsmount portions of cloud-init spec.
<smoser> the cloud-init portions, i haven't begun.
<hggdh> jiboumans: right now, no. I am going thru them and jaguar
<smoser> it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to adjust some of those... but i really do want to get them in.
<jiboumans> hggdh, smoser: then please update your blueprints accordingly. 0% progress after 2 weeks of dev is not acceptable.
<smoser> fwiw, i'm not at 0%
<smoser> 6%
<ttx> as a rule of thumb, if the work items do not reflect work that you've done... then you should rewrite the work items
<ttx> those are work units, not milestones.
<jiboumans> smoser: you're not focussing on the essential part of my message
<jiboumans> moving on
<jiboumans> UEC related specs (jib)
<hallyn> (is this a bad time to ask a pragmatic q?)
<ttx> hallyn: never
<ttx> (never a bad time to ask a q)
<hallyn> ok i'm testing an updated qemu-kvm in my personal ppa.  I obv don't have write access to real ppas yet.  How should I (a) go about working it up into maverick archive, and (b) account for 'done' in blueprint?
<jiboumans> daviey, ccheney, hallyn, hggdh: please review the blueprints. A split has been made for the work between alpha2/3 and onwards and we'd like to make sure this reflects reality
<jiboumans> as dustin is on leave this week, we rely on you to make sure it's accurate
<ttx> feel free to ping me if you need help in that exercise
<hallyn> ok thx
<ttx> hallyn: you need to ask for sponsoring
<jiboumans> ttx, all, anything else on the maverick alpha2 work?
<ttx> hallyn: ping me or mathiaz off-meeting and we'll explain that to you.
<mathiaz> hallyn: right - I can help you out
<hallyn> ttx: ok
<ttx> jiboumans: no
<jiboumans> alright, next topic:
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<mathiaz> hallyn: it will be easier than ttx as we're in the same timezone
<hggdh> 1. UEC test rig is ready to test the new SRUs
<hggdh> 2. I cannot put Maverick in right now due to bug #588861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu) "Instances block in pending state, and don't start" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<hggdh> 3. I am indeed a bit behind, but should catch up fast
<mathiaz> hggdh: great
<mathiaz> hggdh: the 30.2 eucalytpus sru has been accepted earlier today
<SpamapS> A user asked to have bug #589566 SRU'd into lucid as the mongodb people have suggested that 1.2 is not really fit for usage anymore. Do we do that for universe packages?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 589566 in mongodb (Ubuntu) "Please merge mongodb 1.4.3-1 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589566
<mathiaz> hggdh: so helping out in verifiying eucalyptus in -proposed would be helpful
<hggdh> mathiaz: indeed, and this is my intention
<mathiaz> hggdh: great - thanks
<ttx> SpamapS: no we don't
<mathiaz> SpamapS: probably not
<SpamapS> what about backports?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: yes - that would be the best option
<jiboumans> hggdh, Daviey : i see that bug is currently unassigned; do you need help in getting it assigned or is it on track?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: unless mongodb is *completly* broken in the lucid
<SpamapS> Also I need to have my merge/sync bugs for alpha2 set to a higher importance I think.. have not gotten any attention from sponsors, I'm guessing because the importance is undecided.
<Daviey> jiboumans: Hmm.. it's really a kernel issue.. i spoke with them yesterday, and they pretty much said await rc2
<ttx> SpamapS: no, importance should be wishlist for those
<hggdh> jiboumans: Daviey is better poised to answer
<jiboumans> Daviey: you mean alpha2's kernel?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: hm - I'd rather say it's a lack of sponsorship manpower
<ttx> SpamapS: sync processing is a little slow these days
<Daviey> jiboumans: although, some recent updates have asked for triaging information.. but i'll be fixing the underlying issue - so it's not assigned
<ttx> SpamapS: for merge sponsoring, don't hesitate to ping one of us
<mathiaz> ttx: I think SpamapS is blocked on getting *sponsored*
<Daviey> jiboumans: no, upstream kernel.org rc2
<jiboumans> Daviey: ah, thanks for clarifying
<ttx> mathiaz: ah, sync acking, yes
<SpamapS> I've not really done all the steps for getting developer status yet, but I have it on my personal todo list for the week.
<mathiaz> SpamapS: hm - we should probably talk about that after the meeting
<SpamapS> agreed.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to sync up with SpamapS about sponsorship
<mathiaz> jiboumans: ^^
<jiboumans> hggdh: thanks for that update. any questions for QA?
<jiboumans> [ACTION] mathiaz to sync up with SpamapS about sponsorship
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to sync up with SpamapS about sponsorship
<ttx> maybe keep random questions for "open discussion" at the end
<jiboumans> moving on:
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<ttx> so that we don't mix discussions.
<ttx> jjohansen: got two for you :)
<jjohansen> well I took a look at the atop patches, how important are they
<ttx> bug 587893 was fixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 587893 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "linux-image-2.6.34-5-virtual is oversized, results in oversized server ISO" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/587893
<ttx> jjohansen: as in: "how bady do we want them ?"
<mathiaz> jjohansen: is there a ppa to run the maverick-backport to lucid?
<jjohansen> yes
<ttx> badly
<ttx> jjohansen: how disruptive are the patches ?
<jjohansen> mathiaz: yes to how badly, not ppa
<mathiaz> jjohansen: :)
<ttx> jjohansen: I think atop is a matter of "if we can do it, we should"
<ttx> jjohansen: jib would confirm
 * jiboumans confirms
<ttx> I wouldn't risk anything for it.
<Daviey> jjohansen: Any news on 2.6.35-rc2? :)
<jjohansen> okay, I'll present them to the kernel team as such
<jiboumans> jjohansen: you said you took a look at the patchset; what's your opinion on it?
<jjohansen> Daviey: rc2 rebase should be uploaded today, so kernels should be out by the end of the week
<Daviey> jjohansen: That is great news, thanks.
<jjohansen> jiboumans: not a fan but it isn't horrible
<ttx> jiboumans: we shoudl assess how much usable atop is without that patch
<jjohansen> ttx: what about bug #587893
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 587893 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "linux-image-2.6.34-5-virtual is oversized, results in oversized server ISO" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/587893
<ttx> jjohansen: I think it's fixed now
<jiboumans> jjohansen: specifically concerned about possible breakage or performance degradation
 * ttx checks the daily
<ttx> yesterdays daily is below limits so I suspect the fix landed
<jjohansen> ttx: yes it should be "fixed", there are plans to further trim the virtual kernel so that it is only what is needed by kvm/ec2 so it should be getting smaller
<ttx> jjohansen: ok, kudos to the kernel team
<jiboumans> jjohansen++, kernel team++
<ttx> that's all from me
<jiboumans> any other questions for the kernel team?
<jiboumans> as sommer's not available, we'll skip this weeks Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<mathiaz> jjohansen: maverick-backport PPA?
<smoser> jjohansen, i'm for being careful on shrinking -virtual
<smoser> there are already lots of things missing that people legitimately want in "virtual" machines.
<smoser> from fuzzy memory, i think ipv6 is missing
<jjohansen> mathiaz: sorry I'm not sure on the status of that I will have to check and get back to you
<mathiaz> jjohansen: ok - thanks
<jiboumans> [ACTION] jjohansen to check on status of backported kernel for lucid
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jjohansen to check on status of backported kernel for lucid
<jjohansen> smoser: yes we need to be careful, but there are certainly drivers that can be disabled
<smoser> yes.
<smoser> drivers definitely
<jiboumans> alright, moving on:
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Papercuts Alpha2 subcycle status (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Papercuts Alpha2 subcycle status (ttx)
<ttx> https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+milestone/maverick-alpha-2
<mathiaz> smoser: is there a specific tag/package name that is used to track virtual bugs?
<ttx> 4 fixed / 14 targets
<smoser> not that im aware of, but i think, correctly, they owould hyave the binary package hint  set, is that correct ?
<ttx> Remember everyone should take 1-3 bugs in that list. That includes you, mathiaz :P
<mathiaz> ttx: :)
 * smoser is fuzzy on how all that works in launchpad
<ttx> mathiaz: and now the choice is limited :P
<jiboumans> ttx: i trust you'll assign if necessary?
<mathiaz> ttx: well - that's my fault then
<SpamapS> ttx: I have patched 2, but again, awaiting sponsorship
<ttx> yes, I'll soon start being nasty
<ttx> SpamapS: ack, I think  chuck was looking into some of those
<ttx> that's all, we are on track.
<jiboumans> thanks ttx
<SpamapS> ttx: I'll cover it w/ mathiaz in our post meeting talk about sponsorship.
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly SRU review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#SRU%20weekly%20review (mathiaz)
 * mathiaz opens the links
<zul> for the curious: v2 http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/
 * SpamapS misses the red
<zul> dates are not calculated yet
<mathiaz> http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server-team/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<zul> the minicom one should be nominated
<mathiaz> ^^ anything worth SRUing in the bugs fixed last week?
<zul> who the hell still uses minicom btw ;)
<ttx> bug 585911 !
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 585911 in installation-guide (Ubuntu) "preseed documentation: partman/confirm_write_new_label now named partman-partitioning/confirm_write_new_label" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/585911
<mathiaz> zul: it already is nominated
<ttx> beh
<zul> mathiaz: ah ok
<ttx> bug 585911
<mathiaz> hm  - anything else SRU worth?
<SpamapS> 280421 seems like it would be hard to work around if you need ethtool
<SpamapS> bug 280421 I mean
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 280421 in Ubuntu Server papercuts "ethtool not available in post-ifup script" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/280421
<ttx> I wouldn't move it around in a SRU
<SpamapS> symlink to preserve previous location?
<zul> i wouldnt SRU that one
<mathiaz> would that fit in a criteria outlined in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates?
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#When
<mathiaz> ^^ is the list of critiria
<SpamapS> ty.. no its not high impact, just annoying. :)
<hggdh> I have one question on SRU
<mathiaz> hggdh: shoot
<hggdh> the samba apport hook to disable reporting if smb.conf is missing -- is it worthy of a SRU?
<mathiaz> would that fit in a criteria outlined in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#When?
<hggdh> mathiaz: no, not at all. But it may inhibit born-invalid bugs
<mathiaz> hggdh: no, not at all -> not SRU worthy
<hggdh> mathiaz: K, good enough
<Daviey> (although, something needs fixing on samba.. it has a massive share of the server bug count)
<mathiaz> that's all for the SRU review from me - anything else to add?
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<jiboumans> thanks mathiaz
<mathiaz> Daviey: we've discussed that at UDS
<ttx> Daviey: what need to be fixed is documentation, and users. Most of the bugs are invalid, they just take time to debunk
<mathiaz> Daviey: IIRC the decision was that the server team would keep triaging them
<mathiaz> ttx: are you suggesting a user SRU?
<jiboumans> could we? :)
<Daviey> ^^ Which could mean making sure our apport support is kept awesome.  It could be worth passing by the SRU team for comment.
<ttx> mathiaz: the long-term fix is to have a simpler software to handle SMB folder sharing and SMB client
<ttx> samba is a complex beast, an users have all sorts of wrong expectations about it
<mathiaz> ttx: right - it may worth having a session with the desktop team about that issue at the next UDS
<jiboumans> agreed
<mathiaz> ttx: for the time being we're kind of stuck :/
<Daviey> But if we have great apport hooks on the bugs, we can quickly triage them as not bugs.
<jiboumans> it's firmly on my radar though
<ttx> mathiaz: yep
<hggdh> Daviey: +1
<jiboumans> mathiaz: you reckon there'd be mileage in that?
<mathiaz> Daviey: right - and we're doing that for maverick
<jiboumans> i do like the idea of having that in the LTS most people run
<mathiaz> jiboumans: oh yes - I think so
<ttx> Daviey: if you look at bug 566560
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 566560 in samba (Ubuntu) "samba server requires smbpasswd -a user constantly" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/566560
<ttx> Daviey: apport hooks won't help debunking it
<SpamapS> Point of order.. I've seen a lot of questions on ubuntu-server go unanswered ... not even a "can you file a bug report for that" response or "did you search for a bug report?" type of response. Should we be going out of our way to answer questions on the list?
<mathiaz> jiboumans: you mean what - apport hooks backported to LTS?
<Daviey> mathiaz: I'm refering to the "not quite" SRU for the LTS.
<SpamapS> (I mean the mailing list not #ubuntu-server)
<ttx> Daviey: it just takes time to understand wtf the user has put himself into
<SpamapS> and by a lot I mean 2.. :P
<ttx> Daviey: in order to dismiss it as 'not a bug'
<hggdh> still. Apport hooks should be a special case on SRUs
<jiboumans> mathiaz: i mean specifically the apport hook for samba in this case
<mathiaz> hggdh: well - IIRC apport is disable on stable releases
 * hggdh facepalms
<jiboumans> interesting..
<Daviey> mathiaz: "ubuntu-bug samba" etc should still catch it?
<jiboumans> mathiaz, can i ask you to check up on this ?
<mathiaz> Daviey: yes - ubuntu-bug is working
<Daviey> So i can still see merit. :)
<mathiaz> it's the automation part that is disabled
<mathiaz> by default on releases apport won't automatically pop-up IIRC
<jiboumans> [ACTION] mathiaz to check if providing an updated apport hook to samba in lucid is useful and possible to keep the invalid bug reports down
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to check if providing an updated apport hook to samba in lucid is useful and possible to keep the invalid bug reports down
<mathiaz> it's one of the last thing done in the release cycle
<jiboumans> SpamapS: you mean the mailinglist right?
<mathiaz> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apport/1.13.3-0ubuntu2
<jiboumans> SpamapS: if you have an answer, responding is definitely encouraged. even if that answer is 'please file a bug'
<mathiaz>   * etc/default/apport: Disable Apport for the final release.
<SpamapS> jiboumans: yes I do. I'm just not sure of what is expected on the list.
<ttx> SpamapS: some people have a history of being difficult so people just avoid answering them.
<SpamapS> just today somebody had a failed install onto software RAID.. I didn't see any responses.
<ttx> SpamapS: doesn't mean we shouldn't :)
<jiboumans> in fact, we should
<SpamapS> I figured the best response would be to suggest they file a bug but I'm not sure against what or what link to feed them to do that.
<ttx> Could someone point me to the right direction? > File a bug ?
<SpamapS> Figure you guys know more than I.
<jiboumans> 'file a bug, heres the type of info we would need [LINK]'
<jiboumans> alterantely, if you know about software raids, ask for the diagnostics and give an answer on list. it's a community help channel so there's more people reading than just the canonical employees
<ttx> If the system is running, run ubuntu-bug FOO
<SpamapS> Is it acceptable to file a bug for them and respond with a link to it suggesting they add themselves?
<ttx> If not (like in this case: use this link: ...
<mathiaz> SpamapS: that's another option
<jiboumans> any other topics to discuss?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: for that specific use case I'd reply on the ml
<ttx> SpamapS: that confuses the "original reporter"
<Daviey> mathiaz: Any news on the packageset archive access?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: asking for more information about the failure
<mathiaz> SpamapS: I wouldn't open a bug right away
<ttx> SpamapS: who is used to determine "incomplete with a response" type of status
<ttx> and other things
<jjohansen> the current Lucid backport kernel PPA is at  http://ppa.launchpad.net/kernel-ppa/ppa/ubuntu/
<ttx> SpamapS: so I wouldn't file a bug on behalf of someone else
<mathiaz> Daviey: need to create a team - and populate it with relevant people
<mathiaz> jjohansen: thanks
<Daviey> mathiaz: Yup.. Is that on your todo?
<mathiaz> Daviey: yes :)
<Daviey> \o/
<jiboumans> mathiaz++
<jiboumans> any final topic?
<jiboumans> going once...
<Daviey>  /gone
<SpamapS> I like cheese...
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<jiboumans> Tuesday 2010-06-15 at 1800 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<jiboumans> there you have it folks, thanks all for attending!
<jiboumans> #endmeeting
<Daviey> Booo!
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:57.
<paultag> UBT Meeting in T-Minus 1 Minute :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-09
<paultag> OK. Well it's 7:00
<paultag> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:00. The chair is paultag.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Vantrax> o7
<ibuclaw> o/
<paultag> Howdy, ya'll. The wedding is down two doors
<cjohnston> o/
<Chesamo> \o
<Vantrax> awww, but this looked like a lovely spot
<paultag> :)
<paultag> Well, our agenda is quite thin this month. Any items that need to be brought up?
<paultag> ( team-wide, before we poke FG teams )
<paultag> Going once!
<paultag> Twice!
<paultag> Thrice!
<paultag> Mmmkay. On to FGs
<paultag> duanedesign, poke. Any LP updates?
<paultag> I'm guessing he is AFK :)
<ddecator> forgot the meeting was in here :p
<paultag> stlsaint, ddecator, welcome. Any team biz to discuss before moving on?
<ddecator> not that i know of
<stlsaint> no sire
<paultag> Righto. Let's wait a few minutes. This is not a great turnout
<DarkwingDuck> I'm here
<paultag> [IDEA] Start emailing the Mailing List more often
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Start emailing the Mailing List more often
<paultag> DarkwingDuck, getting to membership soon :)
<ddecator> paultag: +1
<paultag> DarkwingDuck, we need to make sure we have enough UBT members around
<DarkwingDuck> paultag: not worried about it.
<DarkwingDuck> I waited this long, what's a few more minutes. ;)
<paultag> wojox is not here
<ddecator> tenach should be here too..
<paultag> tenach is not here :/
<paultag> nor shredder12
<ddecator> hopefully people are just running late :\
<paultag> ddecator, yeah, that's almost half no-show for their membership
<paultag> Which UBT members are here?
<cjohnston> o/
<paultag> OK. I don't think we have enough members to go on.
<Chesamo> :(
<ddecator> :(
 * DarkwingDuck sighs
<paultag> Humm
<paultag> ibuclaw, are you here?
<paultag> duanedesign, what do you think about moving membership to the mailing lists for this one month?
<paultag> Well. Seeing as I am the only UBT council member here, I'm going to have to make a gut call
<paultag> [VOTE] End the meeting early and move membership votes to the Mailing List
<MootBot> Please vote on:  End the meeting early and move membership votes to the Mailing List.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<paultag> UBT members are free to vote
<cjohnston> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjohnston. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<paultag> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from paultag. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ddecator> heh, so just you two..
<paultag> Damn shame.
<paultag> [AGREED] End the meeting early and move membership votes to the Mailing List
<MootBot> AGREED received:  End the meeting early and move membership votes to the Mailing List
<paultag> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 2
<cjohnston> do we ahve enough people to vote to end the meeting?
<paultag> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:09.
<paultag> Thanks for showing up guys
<ddecator> 9 minutes, new record
<cjohnston> I think we had one shroter
<paultag> O
<paultag> I'll write an email to the team
<paultag> sorry to our new guys, ddecator and DarkwingDuck
<ddecator> sounds god
<ddecator> good*
<ddecator> not your fault paultag
 * DarkwingDuck chuckles 
<DarkwingDuck> paultag: New guy?
<DarkwingDuck> :P:P
<paultag> DarkwingDuck, fair enough :)
<paultag> DarkwingDuck, prospective members :D
<ddecator> heh
<DarkwingDuck> LOL paultag, not offended... Just finding humor
<DarkwingDuck> After that LoCo email I needed to ;)
<phillw> paultag: would PM be okay when you get chance?
<paultag> of course phillw
<phillw> pm me when you are free
<stlsaint> paultag: i gotta go in about ten
<paultag> stlsaint, meeting is over. You can leave :)
<stlsaint> oh sorry..i missed that log entry :D
<DarkwingDuck> Guess I'll read about it on the ML :P
<cprofitt> sorry I am late UBT
<ddecator> cprofitt: meeting ended a while ago :p
<cprofitt> it took less than 30 minutes... wow
<ddecator> 9 minutes. not enough people to vote on new members
<cprofitt> ah...
<cprofitt> yeah 7pm is a bit rough for some folks in the US
<cprofitt> I normally can make 7pm, but tonight I was at another meeting
<ddecator> 6pm for some of us :p
<cprofitt> true...
<cprofitt> I should have said 23:00 UTC
<cprofitt> because that is 7pm -> 3pm depending on where you are in the states
<cprofitt> I guess... 1pm if we throw in Hawaii
<cprofitt> sorry you did not get votd on ddecator
<cprofitt> Hopefully we can get this done the next meeting
<ddecator> cprofitt: nah, it's fine, it's being brought to the ML (paul just sent an email)
<paultag> aye.
<cprofitt> nice
<cprofitt> good way to do it
<paultag> thanks. These guys have been waiting for a long while. No need to punish them on account of idle members
 * cprofitt nods and agrees with paultag 
 * pleia2 nods
<mvo> hello!
<barry> hello!
 * xnox 0/
<cjwatson> hi
<psurbhi> o/
<mvo> so the order today is:
<mvo> surbhi, ev, doko, barry, mvo, Keybuk, cjwatson
<mvo> for the lighting round
<mvo> I did not get any agenda additions by mail, anything somebody wants to add now?
<psurbhi> not much from my end.. could not do much, sorry about it :( ..set up qemu and still testing btrfs.. went through btrfs code.. thats it.. i really hope by next meeting i have something
<barry> not from me
 * psurbhi thought the round began
<mvo> thanks psurbhi :)
<mvo> the round has began
<doko> online, but still in cambridge
<mvo> so your lighting round item is "sprinting" :)
<maco> lightning round?
<mvo> "2-4 sentences on current work/roadblocks "
<barry> is ev here?
<mvo> no ev today?
<cjwatson> doesn't look like it ...
<mvo> so its barry
<xnox> ev on vacation?!
<barry> bug 589227 (2.6.32-22.35 breaks kvm); virtual machine hacking (vmbuilder, kvm, libvirt); foundations-m-python-versions (building the py27 ppa stack); foundations-m-continuous-integration (emails, and package tests). done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 589227 in linux (Ubuntu) "booting to 2.6.32-22-generic prevents kvm machines from starting (dup-of: 589163)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589227
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 589163 in linux (Ubuntu) "Cannot start kvm guest" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589163
<mvo> apt: improve mirror method; move stuff to aptdaemon backend (gnome-codec-instal\
<mvo> l, update-manager), some merges, work on software-center launchpad integration,\
<mvo>  buy-stuff work
<mvo> (eof)
<mvo> actually, the mirror:// method is something I would like to briefly talk about, it looks like the launchpad side of things is working well, so we may consider it for maverick, at least get feedback on it
<mvo> (after the lighting round of course)
<barry> mvo: need more context :)
 * cjwatson first remembers that coming up in UDS Mountain View (the first one)
<cjwatson> no Keybuk?
 * cjwatson checks the holiday system
<cjwatson> ah yes, ev and Keybuk are both on holiday today
<cjwatson> done: more grub2 bug-fixing, somewhat desperately trying to get a new version into Debian testing and maverick; Linaro infrastructure sprint; initial work on foundations-m-uefi-support, got a test CD out and do
<cjwatson> ne some early experimentation with grub-efi
<mvo> the idea is that mirrors.ubuntu.com hands out a list of mirrors via geoip to apt and that picks one and one 404,403 etc it can retry the next. there are more fancy plans, but that is the basic feature
<cjwatson> todo: fix grub-efi (or my sample EFI implementation) to the point where I can make serious progress on installer side of foundations-m-uefi-support; likely to spend most of Friday at Linaro infrastructure sprint, but available tomorrow; finish sorting out team work items
<cjwatson> --
<cjwatson> (and speaking of team work items, I have an agenda item to slot in later)
<cjwatson> xnox: do you want to slot anything into the lightning round?
<xnox> sure. =)
<xnox> wiped my harddrive parition table & restored. Got grub-efi to chainboot another grub, boot kernel/initrtd from iso.
<xnox> got grub-pc to boot on macs as well to boot iso from usb
<xnox> it's impossible to compile grub2 on a mac. Figuring out how to do usb-creator backend on macs....
<xnox> eof
<cjwatson> definitely need to talk with you once I'm a little further along with uefi-support and am doing better than guesswork
<xnox> cjwatson: openSUSE are doing geolocation mirrors (not sure if they use geoIP)
<cjwatson> that's -> mvo
<doko> binutils cross build fix integration, gcc upstream cross build fix, sprinting
<doko> done
<cjwatson> that's all for the lightning round?
<cjwatson> our lightning is slow today :)
<mvo> do we have any outstanding actions from the last meeting?
 * mvo can not see any
<xnox> doko: will gnat-4.5 be uploaded to maverick? (and debian experimental)
<doko> xnox: yes, if you port it from 4.4
<xnox> doko: =) gotcha
<mvo> the alpha2 buglist looks pretty small currently
<doko> xnox: you might want to get in touch with lbrenta
<mvo> (buglist is at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+bugs?field.milestone:list=27560 - just fyi)
<mvo> if there are no further comments from the buglist, then I think its best to let cjwatson talk about work items
<cjwatson> well, I was going to nag people about the work items mail I sent, but I think the only people I need to nag are actually ev (who has a fairly decent set of work items already) and doko (whom I nagged in person earlier today) :)
<cjwatson> so I think it would be best if people went to look at http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> barry, mvo, you two want to check back in an hour or two, since I just accepted a bunch of your specs for maverick and fixed up work item formatting etc.
<barry> cjwatson: sure :)
<cjwatson> everybody else, please check that this list is representative of what you'll be doing this cycle by way of feature work
<mvo> ohoh
<mvo> :)
<cjwatson> we need to adjust things so that there's slightly less stuff creeping in from people who've moved teams, but ignore that
<cjwatson> if it's *not* complete, please mail me a list of the specs that should be on there
<cjwatson> and write up work items for them if they aren't there already, please
<cjwatson> here endeth the nag
<mvo> thanks cjwatson
<mvo> my bit is really only
<mvo> please try: "deb mirror://mirrors.ubuntu.com/mirrors.txt maverick main restricted" (or lucid) in your sources.list
<mvo> and let me know if you experience any issues, it should be working well now
<mvo> in both maverick and lucid
<mvo> once there is more confidence in it (there is a update for maverick pending) we can talk about making it default
<mvo> or at least expose it better in software-properties
<mvo> (thats it from on the mirror method)
<cjwatson> cool, I'll give that a go
<mvo> next item is "Any business from activity reports " - please add your activity reports to the wiki page
<mvo> so far only barry did â¦
 * mvo blushes because his is missing too
<cjwatson> mine is also missing, sorry - will do before EOD
 * psurbhi notes
<psurbhi> where is the foundations wiki?
<psurbhi> i mean where do i put them up?
<mvo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2010/0609
<psurbhi> mvo, thanks
<mvo> I did send out a mail about it, did I accidently forgot to include you psurbhi ? if so, I'm  sorry
<psurbhi> mvo, np
<mvo> "Good news " anyone?
 * psurbhi checks email as well
<cjwatson> at least some level of graphics support appears to Just Work Already in grub-efi
<barry> don't forget there's a private mailing list we can use so you don't have to remember everyone's email.  i'm not sure if psurbhi's on it, but i'll double check the membership
<cjwatson> (except for the fact that my EFI implementation only has a 256-colour emulated video card, so the Ubuntu background colour gets smashed to some kind of dark red, which confused me until I did the maths and confirmed that it was correct)
<mvo> barry: could oyu please mail that list and remind about it?
<barry> mvo: will do
<mvo> my SoC student is working on apt multiarch rocks
<cjwatson> I gave psurbhi access the other day, though I think she'd have had to press a button in LP to actually subscribe
<mvo> that should read "and he rocks"
<mvo> breaks the ABI all over the place too :P
<cjwatson> apt ABI in "breaking" shocker ;-)
 * psurbhi eww.. notes
<barry> cjwatson: right.  we can't subscribe someone else to a list
<cjwatson> ironically, at that point I noticed that I was not subscribed to that list either
<barry> cjwatson: can you emulate efi for a vm?
<cjwatson> (and fixed it)
<xnox> cjwatson: =)))) blindly including all grub-efi modules boot lucid with wobly windows and compiz for me without fakebios & without efiframebuffer with nice plymouth and kms =)
<cjwatson> barry: yep - grab OVMF from http://sourceforge.net/projects/edk2/, unpack in a directory, kvm -L .
<cjwatson> xnox: oh, I meant graphics in grub itself
 * psurbhi subscribed now
<barry> cjwatson: cool
<cjwatson> (though glad to hear it)
<barry> cjwatson: i'll remove the members who have moved on
<cjwatson> something's a bit wrong at the moment and grub can't load the kernel from OVMF, I'll investigate that
<cjwatson> also the acronym is nearly impossible to remember
<xnox> cjwatson: =))) well i played around with just regular grub menu
<mvo> ok, moving on to "AOB"
<mvo> AOB?
<mvo> 3
<mvo> 2
<mvo> 1
<mvo> "# Next week's chair "
<mvo> anybody who wants to do it? otherwise its going to be (in the just started tradition) the first one from the shuffle script
<barry> mvo: that's a great way to do it :)
<doko> I think I am next
<mvo> aha, a volunteer, even better. thanks doko
<psurbhi> doko, thanks, i think i was first otherwise..
<doko> I was volunteered ...
<psurbhi> :)
<mvo> EOM - thanks everyone :)
<psurbhi> mvo, thanks!
<xnox> thanks =)
<psurbhi> o/ bbye!
<barry> mvo: thanks!
<highvoltage> good evening
<bencrisford> evening :)
<highvoltage> apologies if I seem somewhat aloof tonight, I've had some stomach bug the past few days and have mostly been sleeping due to pills I've taken
<highvoltage> RubÃ©n Romero
<highvoltage> oops, premature paste :)
<highvoltage> RubÃ©n Romero e-mailed me today about collaboration between debian-edu and edubuntu
<mhall119> yay, meeting time
 * stgraber waves
<highvoltage> he's willing to facilitate that, he has some good ideas, he'll share with the list too
<mhall119> highvoltage: cool, I wanted to collaborate with them on QImo
 * alkisg waves too
<highvoltage> I suggested that he also look at Utnubu (Ubuntu backwards, a collaboration link between Debian-Ubuntu - http://wiki.debian.org/Utnubu)
<highvoltage> so perhaps some of it might happen under the Utnubu umbrella as well
<highvoltage> mhall119: great
<highvoltage> I was busy speaking to Hedgemage until the meeting started about the Edubuntu site, she'll be getting some things ready and I'll possibly have it after the meeting
<highvoltage> I told her that we might have to move on without her work for now since we really need a site, and that she shouldn't be offended if we do. She's ok with it and if we have to do that we'll just retro-fit some of her work again. She had lots of unexpected work coming up this month so that kind of messed with the planning for it
<highvoltage> I haven't had a chance to look at vikram's documentation spec yet, have anyone else? any thoughts?
<highvoltage> (https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-documentation-build)
<highvoltage> ah, there's some ideas in there but it's not a plan per se
<mhall119> I know we've talked about moin->docbook before, that would be really nice to have
<highvoltage> I like the sidewiki idea, but I'm not sure how many educators/end-users typically use that. easy feedback would be great though
<highvoltage> (sorry got a bit distracted)
<highvoltage> alkisg: did you want to talk about copying that package to the stable ppa from yours?
<alkisg> Sure.
<alkisg> Tuxpaint got demoted to universe in the Lucid cycle
<alkisg> That resulted in the translations missing in the lucid package (it should have had been reuploaded for the translations to not be stripped)
<alkisg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tuxpaint/+bug/572994
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 572994 in tuxpaint (Ubuntu) "Unable to change the language in Tuxpaint" [Undecided,New]
<alkisg> I don't know if there's going to be an update to lucid-updates or lucid-proposed, but in the meantime we could upload it to the edubuntu stable ppa
<alkisg> I already uploaded it to my ppa, so a "copy packages" is all that's needed
<alkisg> If anyone agrees, I could copy it right now and send an email to the mailing list + mention it on the bug report...
 * highvoltage +1
<mhall119> oh, so that's why Qimo doesn't translate tuxpaint...
<drubin> 4
<drubin> In my opinion, the best Web 2.0 development system out there is Google's GWT. There are many frameworks, such as YUI and jQuery that provide exceptional features, however they require you to code in JavaScript and whilst these libraries themselves offer tested and debugged code that is highly portable across browsers, hand-coding JavaScript yourself quickly becomes a quagmire of browser
<drubin> compatibility issues and arcane debugging techniques.
<highvoltage> alkisg: is it an update to the package, or is it a new package that has to be included?
<alkisg> highvoltage: just a reuploading was needed
<drubin> wow sorry for that copy/paste fail!
<alkisg> Nothing was modified except for a version bump
<highvoltage> alkisg: hmm, ok, then we could possibly get a SRU for it
<alkisg> That'd be best
<highvoltage> alkisg: for some reason I thought there was an additional package, but I was probably thinking of another discussion earler
<mhall119> why was it dropped to universe?
<highvoltage> mhall119: at a guess there probably isn't any dedicated person to maintain it
 * mhall119 makes a note to check maintainers for all Qimo's packages
<highvoltage> dedicated person / dedicated core-dev :)
<ScottK> Things only stay in Main for a specific reason.  In this case it was dropped from the default intall, aiui, and so it would be natural for it to go to Universe.
<highvoltage> ScottK: which default install? it wasn't ever in the Ubuntu one, I'm quite sure that it's still in the default Edubuntu
<ScottK> highvoltage: I'm not sure then.
<ScottK> It may be just a fallout of the fact that Edubuntu used to all be in Main and isn't anymore.
 * ScottK looks.
<highvoltage> yep, that makes sense
<highvoltage> hi dhillonv10
<dhillonv10> highvoltage: hi :) sorry I am a little late, is the meeting over?
<highvoltage> nope, but probably close
<highvoltage> dhillonv10: I looked at your blueprint, will respond on the list later, I meant to do so sooner but it just didn't work out
<highvoltage> I think the sidewiki idea is great, not sure how many educators use it though
<dhillonv10> highvoltage: that alright :) so anything else for me?
<dhillonv10> highvoltage: its quite easy to use you see, I can do a screencast like 2 mins. long which can explain all its goodness :)
<highvoltage> dhillonv10: I talked to Hedgemage before the meeting as well, she'll tar up the parts we need for the site, so if you'd like to do a screencast, then we can include a video on the site
<highvoltage> dhillonv10: we could do with plenty of other screencasts as well :)
<dhillonv10> highvoltage: sure :) that would be great
<dhillonv10> highvoltage: I'll try but my video skills aren't that good :)
<highvoltage> dhillonv10: that study on finding out what people often asks about also sounds great
<highvoltage> dhillonv10: it could also be useful for knowing what kind of screencasts are required
<dhillonv10> highvoltage: yeah like I said in the blueprint, I have the code and its in one of the branches but its not efficient, it just searches "some" common phrases and I may have to write a lot of it over to make it more useful
<highvoltage> yep, we also only get a few common questions on IRC, I guess we could do some of it manually on the forums/bug reports/lists as well
<ScottK> highvoltage: In karmic it was in main due to being in ubuntu-edu-preschool.
<highvoltage> ScottK: it still is
<ScottK> highvoltage: Yes, but an Edubuntu seed no longer forces it into Main.
<ScottK> So it's as I thought.
<highvoltage> ScottK: *nod*
<dhillonv10> highvoltage: that also links with something else I am working on, you know how launchpad has an answers service where you can ask question about ubuntu and other softwares, now we can use google to search the terms in the question and get more information then in the template of the answer we can send those links back, like the top 5 or something
<highvoltage> I'll try to put together some summary of our UDS work items and what needs attention and get it out to the list and make sure everyone knows what they need to do
<dhillonv10> highvoltage: with what I have currently it can find some common terms but attaching them back to the email template is not working good
<highvoltage> personally I haven't been giving Edubuntu as much attention recently as I'd like to, but I'll get back on track soon :)
<dhillonv10> same here :)
<mhall119> me too
<highvoltage> I think the most important thing on my list is probably getting the installer stuff going, also an improved ltsp-live, although  I'll probably do the edubuntu-artwork package split over the next week
<dhillonv10> mhall119: hiiiiiiiiii :)
<mhall119> highvoltage: will you be able to help me get started on an alternative installer for Qimo 2?
<mhall119> hi dhillonv10
<highvoltage> mhall119: yep
<mhall119> cool
<highvoltage> mhall119: you know what would be cool? (at least imho) a text-based front-end for ubiquity
<mhall119> yes
<mhall119> but you'd still need RAM enough to expand the squashfs
<dhillonv10> true :)
<highvoltage> that doesn't take much
<highvoltage> the image is only read as needed, it doesn't all get stored into RAM
<mhall119> well something causes Qimo to need 192 MB to install, even running just ubiquity
<highvoltage> mhall119: is that with the ubiquity-only session? because that's supposed to work on 128MB afaik
<mhall119> sometimes, if you dont' have onboard video, it'll work on 128
<mhall119> but rarely
<mhall119> sometimes with onboard video, even 256 isn't enough
<highvoltage> yeah that's just a case of ubiquity needing lots of memory, would've been the same even if you didn't use squashfs.
<mhall119> oh, I didn't know it needed that much
<highvoltage> not sure where all the memory is going to, and if a text-based front-end would help
<highvoltage> I imagine not running GDM or X would already help at least
<mhall119> probably
<mhall119> but I've run desktops on 128MB after installing with an alternate CD
<highvoltage> I can't even survive on 1GB these days :)
 * highvoltage blames firefox (for one)
<highvoltage> I guess it's time to move back to  #edubuntu :)
<dhillonv10> highvoltage: yeah firefox takes a lot of memory :)
<mhall119> I have 4GB now, I'm happy
<alkisg> Well even if the installer worked with 128 RAM, the installed system would be unusable with anything below 512, so it doesn't really matter...
<mhall119> I've had Qimo running on 128MB
<mhall119> it's not great
<mhall119> but 256 runs it just fine
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-10
<mpt> hi aday
<aday> mpt: hey
<aday> how's it going?
<mpt> It looks like the Fridge Calendar lost the meeting
<mpt> hello godbyk-sagan
<godbyk-sagan> morning
<thorwil> hi mpt, aday, godbyk-sagan
<mpt> hi thorwil
<aday> thorwil: hi
<mpt> And I spy vish and wers here too
<wers> oh it's 8 already i didnt notice
<thorwil> so my first ever Evolution alarm worked out
<wers> hello everyone
<thorwil> hi wers
<wers> hi thorwil :)
<vish> hey mpt  , happy b'day :)
<mpt> thanks vish
<aday> oh yeah, happy birthday mpt! :)
<wers> vish, it really is his birthday? Happy birthday mpt ! :)
<thorwil> happy birthday, mpt!
<vish> wers: well , > http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/d0od/~3/nAbzk6XC7dI/how-shy-blueberry-crusher-stumbled-upon.html
<aday> vish: ha ha
<aday> lovely!
<mpt> Soooooo, I don't have anything on the agenda for today
<mpt> I was hoping ivanka would talk about the heuristic bug tagging, but she's off at LinuxTag
<mpt> djsiegel is busy writing a post for design.canonical.com about the UX advocates project
<mpt> That should be up sometime today.
<mpt> Does anyone else have a project they'd like to propose, or anything they'd like to discuss?
<wers> if it's okay to raise this, i'd like to talk about Murrine...
<thorwil> well, i still wonder how to put ayatana on rails (no ruby)
<wers> there are new stuff lately, but too few people are aware of them and are using them. i asked cimi if there's a theme that showcases that new stuff, but he said there's non. i believe that the gtk+ theme is a big enough part of the whole UX
<wers> just tell me if it's offtopic :)
<mpt> wers, do you mean more people should be testing theme changes in Maverick? Or something else?
<wers> that one too. people aren't utilizing the engine we have
<wers> i want to see the nice new stuff in Light
<mpt> wers, so what do you mean by "there's new stuff lately"?
<wers> There are new engine options that significantly (IMHO) change the look of widgets
<vish> wers: kwwii is actually supposed to be posting shortly more in detail about the new changes > http://design.canonical.com/2010/05/last-week-in-london-and-brussels/
<wers> vish, thanks. will look at it
<vish> and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/Murrine
<mpt> Once there's a PPA or something to test, we could crank up the publicity machine
<wers> vish, cool. i hope, it's update though
<mpt> for testers
<vish> not up-to-date , but should be updated ;)
<aday> we could talk about the next version of the hig...
<mpt> indeed we could
<wers> aday, what's going on there lately?
<aday> wers: not much ;) calum's been doing some work reviewing existing material - seeing what can be reused
<vish> aday: mpt: i ran across an interesting bug , interesting in the sense a user experience > https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bug/587896
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 587896 in One Hundred Paper Cuts "Can't copy and paste images from website to nautilus" [Low,Incomplete]
<aday> we'd like to have a substantial portion of the hig done before the big 3.0
<vish> the user  has been trying to use the option "Copy image" in firefox/chrome and imagining it to work the same way as a "Copy" from nautilus
<mpt> aday, so I need to stop procrastinating and start writing? :-)
<aday> mpt: we're having a session at guadec where we're hopefully going to get some writing done, and the documentation team have offered to help out
<aday> the problem is that most usability types don't have the time or inclination to work on it in their own time
<aday> mpt: some input would be great! :)
<mpt> okay
<aday> mpt: perhaps we could try and recruit some others? once the process is going that could be easier
<mpt> aday, good idea, but I don't know how we'd do that
<aday> the problem is that it is quite specialised work
<thorwil> which tends to be a full time job for few people, if it is meant to happen efficiently
<mpt> yes, you need to be good at writing *and* at thinking of things that programmers get wrong
<mpt> Maybe one way to distribute it would be to find people who have done design evaluations of bits of Gnome stuff
<mpt> And see if their specific points are generalizable. Then they could be written up by someone who's good at writing even if they're not necessarily good at design themselves.
<mpt> Maybe that's a wacky idea, I don't know
<wers> how about using other HIGs floating around online as pegs? hmmm
<thorwil> the big topic for the next version are patterns, right?
<aday> thorwil: right
<thorwil> should we dare to bring that to the ayatana ml?
<mpt> It's worth a try :-)
<aday> my concern would be the quality of the contributions... but something is better than nothing :)
<thorwil> mpt: then lets's talk about the best angle of attack
<mpt> thorwil, maybe ask specifically for people to brainstorm patterns -- e.g. in a pad.ubuntu-uk.org document
<aday> this is our existing list of patterns: http://live.gnome.org/UsabilityProject/HIG/ThreeZero/LondonHackfestNotes
<mpt> thorwil, would you like to take care of that?
<thorwil> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/ui-patterns
<aday> this could be a good task for those studying usability stuff
<thorwil> mpt: initial push, yes, at least
<mpt> ok, thanks
<mpt> I think this is something godbyk-sagan is interested in, too
<mpt> particularly the overall structure of the guidelines
<mpt> Anything else about the HIG?
<mpt> thorwil, you said something about Ayatana on rails?
<godbyk-sagan> Yeah, I would love to help out with the HIG, if I can carve out some time to do so.
<thorwil> mpt: i feel it's still a lot of hot air, not enough structure/guidance
<mpt> thorwil, you mean the mailing list is?
<thorwil> yes
<mpt> That's true
<thorwil> mpt: apparently there's not even a clear idea of a design/artwork separation
<mpt> That's maybe not so much of a problem. There'll always be overlap between them.
<mpt> I think ayatana@ is a bundle of energy that just needs more things to do. :-)
<thorwil> perhaps. but look at the double-click thing
<vish> !test
<ubottu> hrm?
<aday> got to run, i'm afraid. see you all next week :)
<godbyk-sagan> See you later, aday.
<thorwil> just a tiny bit of structuring from my side and we got an overview and mockups and best of all: some consensus. but what is happening now with it?
<mpt> thorwil, I haven't caught up to that thread, so I don't know
<mpt> I'll try to go through it today.
<thorwil> cool
<mpt> ok, if we have nothing else for this week, I have another meeting to get ready for :-)
<mpt> thank you all
<thorwil> cya!
<godbyk-sagan> See you next week.
<vish> bye , /me catches up with logs , seems i was disconneted for a bit in the middle ;p
<wers> see you next week :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-11
<Claudinux> night night
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> ...and so it begins
 * fader_ is filling in for marjo for QA today.
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Ubuntu 10.10 Release
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu 10.10 Release
<robbiew> fader_: ack
<robbiew> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-06-11
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2010-06-11
<ttx> o/
 * robbiew waits for others
 * ogasawara waves
<robbiew> cjwatson?
<Riddell> hola
<cjwatson> here
<jdstrand> o/
 * robbiew wonders why he spends time putting bugs into the agenda...since the list is constantly changing
 * robbiew will rethink that approach :/
<robbiew> okey dokey...so I'm "acting" release manager, until we settle on a more permanent one
<cjwatson> it's useful later in the cycle
<robbiew> which should be REALLY soon
<cjwatson> (bugs)
 * ogra waves from linuxtag
<robbiew> cjwatson: ack
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Alpha 2
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 2
<robbiew> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/all-maverick-alpha-2.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/all-maverick-alpha-2.svg
<robbiew> this is a bit scary :/
<ogra> geez
<cjwatson> spot the specs being written late
<robbiew> ack
<robbiew> but I suspect I will see some more yellow there soon
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> though more green is preferred
<cjwatson> yeah - green is growing more than it looks from a glance at the graph, but not fast enough
<robbiew> so...let's get to it
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Foundations
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations
<cjwatson> (I asked to go first since I have to leave early)
<cjwatson> I literally *just* put together https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick, but there's only automated information on there right now
<cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-foundations.html is a bit scary
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-foundations.html is a bit scary
<cjwatson> HOWEVER
<cjwatson> this is full of ARM stuff since it still thinks that james_w and lool are in foundations
<cjwatson> so the graph will drop a bit once I fix that
<robbiew> ah..didn't think of that
<cjwatson> I think we're still slow-starting though
 * ogra fixed it for mobile already ... right before we were renamed :P
<cjwatson> so, as far as the agenda goes:
<cjwatson> btrfs-support has the one essential item done upstream, awaiting a merge (which in turn is pending an MIR review).  there's a bunch of optional stuff none of which is a2-critical, but it's being worked on.
<cjwatson> buy-something, no idea
<cjwatson> 686-compile, toolchain switch is done but had slightly more of an impact on geode than we hoped; being debugged
<cjwatson> cd-boot, I think I might switch this to a3 in favour of uefi-support since there's a plugfest in July which will benefit from having the latter done early
<cjwatson> I don't have enough information to report on the other blueprints at this time, sorry :(
<cjwatson> the locale-gen bug was something that came up as an optimisation in a conversation between me and pitti, and should be well in hand
<cjwatson> otherwise, I'll try to get us more organised on the work item lists for next week
<robbiew> heh..np
<robbiew> anything for Foundations?
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel
<robbiew> ogasawara: welcome to the party
 * cjwatson has been buried alternately in Linaro sprinting and in the internals of grub/efi for the last week ...
<robbiew> :P
<ogasawara> woot!
<ogasawara> Overall Kernel Team status is summarised at the first URL below,
<ogasawara> including the item(s) called out in the agenda.  Our burndown chart for
<ogasawara> Alpha2 is at the third URL, and our overall burndown chart is at the fourth:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone maverick-alpha-2
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone maverick-alpha-2
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<ogasawara> On the item noted in the agenda, the status is as follows:
<ogasawara>  * Bug 591707 - Tim is currently assigned to and investigating this bug.
<ogasawara> The issue has been tested and confirmed against the latest 2.6.35-rc2
<ogasawara> upstream kernel.  Tim has contacted the upstream e1000e Intel driver
<ogasawara> developers.  The current suggestion so far is to try updating the BIOS.
<ogasawara> We're awaiting feedback from the bug reporter.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 591707 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "After upgrade lucid -> maverick eth0 interface is gone" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/591707
<cjwatson> damn, ogasawara is making me look bad.
<cjwatson> :-)
<ogasawara> :)
<ogasawara> As a general status, we have rebased with the upstream 2.6.35-rc2
<ogasawara> kernel.  This is available for testing in the latest linux 2.6.35-2.3
<ogasawara> maverick upload.  We are also below the burdown chart overall but are
<ogasawara> above the Alpha2 burdown chart with 25% work items complete.
<ogasawara> Questions?
<robbiew> bug 553498
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 553498 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "Intel Core i3/i5/i7 hang on resume from suspend (SCI_EN)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553498
<robbiew> any status on that one...just came on the radar...so "no" is acceptable
<robbiew> ;)
<ogasawara> robbiew: I'll get with kamal and get an update
<robbiew> thank you ma'am ;)
<robbiew> that's all from me
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Security
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security
<jdstrand> o/
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> Not a lot to report. Our team has been swamped with security updates lately and we've not been able to do any significant development work, which is why our burndown is so scary.
<jdstrand> I said this during the Lucid cycle, but will repeat it here for Maverick: due to development work being secondary to security updates, we only commit to completing essential blueprints. As such, the burndown chart doesn't work super well for our team, but I don't really know how to fix it either...
 * robbiew considers security updates **significant** ;)
<jdstrand> heh
<jdstrand> yes!
<jdstrand> most definitely, but we consider them non-devel work :)
<jdstrand> This time we don't have many essential bps, and the only one that is left to complete is security-m-tls-renegotiation-updates. That has one maverick specific item, which is to merge openssl. This should be done by sometime next week.
<robbiew> jdstrand: perhaps we need a way to show progress of security updates
<robbiew> completed vs ToDos
<robbiew> or something
<robbiew> you should probably have your manager figure that out
<jdstrand> well, we have www.ubuntu.com/usn
<robbiew> :P
<jdstrand> but that doesn't tell the whole story :)
<jdstrand> eg, there has been no update for firefox this week, but I have been working almost extensively on firefox 3.6.4 testing on hardy this week
<jdstrand> heh
<jdstrand> s/almost//
<robbiew> ack
 * jdstrand changed from typing exclusively to extensively mid thought :)
<robbiew> any questions for Security?
<jdstrand> robbiew: but yes, this could be brought up with our team's manager
<robbiew> yeah yeah
<robbiew> it's on my ToDo list ;)
<jdstrand> :)
<jdstrand> (that's it from me)
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> [TOPIC] QA
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA
 * robbiew braces for impact
<fader_> Yo
<fader_> Hardware testing:
<fader_> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<fader_> Laptops/Netbooks:
<fader_>    passed:   26 (46%)   failed:    6 (11%)   untested: 24 (43%)
<fader_> Servers:
<fader_>    passed:   53 (78%)   failed:    0 ( 0%)   untested: 15 (22%)
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<fader_> Desktops:
<fader_>    passed:    9 (90%)   failed:    0 ( 0%)   untested:  1 (10%)
<fader_> We had some issues getting the desktop images installing on the laptops in the lab but I think they are all resolved now
<fader_> The installs are going on as we speak so we should have some more results soon
<fader_> (in fact I'm seeing results come in now)
<fader_> The big issue on the servers is bug 589304 (which is now fixed so again we should see more results soon)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 589304 in linux (Ubuntu) "Maverick: bnx2 udeb firmware missing" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589304
<fader_> Maverick Alpha 1 Test Report:
<fader_> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/MaverickAlpha1TestReport
<fader_> == Test Coverage ==
<fader_> Image Coverage: 100%
<fader_> Mandatory Testcase Coverage: 114/171 = 66.67
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/MaverickAlpha1TestReport
<fader_> Optional Testcase Coverage: 5/18 = 27.78
<fader_> === Test Failure Analysis ===
<fader_> 15 Test Failures
<fader_> Failure Rate 15/119 = 12.61
<fader_> == Bugs summary, As of 4 June 2010 ==
<fader_> === Summary of Unfixed Issues ===
<fader_> 39 bugs unfixed
<fader_> High - 4
<fader_> Medium - 7
<fader_> Low - 2
<fader_> Undecided - 26
<fader_> === Summary of Fixed Issues ===
<fader_> 8 bugs fixed
<fader_> High - 2
<fader_> Medium - 1
<fader_> Low - 1
<fader_> Undecided - 4
<fader_> Maverick Blueprints Status:
<fader_> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-platform-qa-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-platform-qa-maverick-alpha-2.html
<fader_> All work items are on track.
<fader_> (END OF LINE)
<fader_> Any questions?
 * robbiew is digesting
<robbiew> nope...i'm good.....for now ;)
<fader_> \o/
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Server
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server
<ttx> o/
<ttx> Our updated release status is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus
<ttx> Only 2 bugs alpha2-milestoned, we probably didn't break enough stuff yet.
<ttx> Both are about UEC, one is a needed change in maverick, the other is a regression caught in alpha1 testing. Both are taken care of by Daviey.
<ttx> The regression doesn't happen with Lucid kernels, so it might be in fact a kernel regression... More on that next week.
<ttx> On the specs side, here is the alpha2 status: http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ttx> Everything was under control until we added the work items from the UEC specs :)  Then we got hit by a few medical leaves, but everything should be back to fullspeed next week.
<ttx> Looking at Critical/High specs < 40% completion:
<ttx> server-maverick-cloud-init (6%): stalled by smoser in paternity leave, will throw more resources at it
<ttx> server-maverick-hypervisor (31%): slow start (is assigned to a new hire), now on track
<ttx> server-maverick-uec-eucalyptus-next (11%): Slow start (assigned to new hire, large initial merge), but under control
<ttx> server-maverick-uec-testing (10%): hggdh impacted by UEC projects, should be OK , will refine Monday
<ttx> server-maverick-qa-workflow (10%): hggdh impacted by UEC projects, might move to A3 and Medium prio
<ttx> Medium/Low Specs < 20% completion:
<ttx> server-maverick-cloud-utils (0%) On standby due to prio 1 assignment
<ttx> server-maverick-uds-seed-review (0%) Only a couple work items, on standby due to prio 1 assignment
<ttx> sae for server-maverick-upstart-conversion
<ttx> same
<ttx> server-maverick-uec-provisioning (0%) Dustin was on leave, should be picked up next week
<ttx> server-maverick-uec-liveusb (0%) Might have to be postponed due to Dustin medical leave
<ttx> All other specs are on track and showing good progress.
<ttx> Questions ?
<robbiew> hmm...somehow I missed some of the specs in my alpha2 milestoned search
<robbiew> sorry about that
<ttx> robbiew: I edited based on those with A2 work items
<ttx> most of our specs are targeted to A3 with some work items on A2
<robbiew> ah
<robbiew> okay
<robbiew> whew!
<robbiew> thnx ttx
 * ttx bows
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Desktop
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop
<seb128> hey
<seb128> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team.html
<seb128> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<seb128> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<seb128> (I didn't have time to update the wiki one for maverick yet)
<seb128> things worth noting:
<seb128> * we are mostly on track for alpha2
<seb128> * unity landed to maverick this week and UNE brings it in now (should work out of the box on new install and upgades)
<seb128> * the xorg transition in maverick is done, we should be back to installability (out of some nvidia drivers rebuild required it seems)
<seb128> * our web-browsers maintainer has been busy with the firefox 3.6.4 security updates so we didn't have much work done on chromium for UNE yet
<seb128> * we will likely stay on the lucid version of GNOME
<seb128> (new GNOME going toward GNOME3 this cycle will require gtk3 which is lot of work, gtk soname change)
<seb128>  
<seb128> (that's it)
 * robbiew noticed the Unity into UNE this week
<ScottK> Kubuntu status is also on the ReleaseStatus page.  We are in good shape, but blocked on MIRs in a number of cases.
 * robbiew apologizes for listing non-targeted bugs for Desktop :/
<robbiew> doh!
<robbiew> ScottK: ack
<seb128> oh, we did quite some SRUs for lucid .1 as well
<seb128> and still plan to get GNOME 2.30.2 there
<seb128> it's schedule for end of june
<ScottK> For Lucid, I should mention that I raised Bug #586497 to the tech board last night as a probable post-release regression.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 586497 in packagekit (Ubuntu Lucid) "kpackagekit install security update in automatic mode without authorization" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/586497
<robbiew> ok, thanks ScottK
<robbiew> seb128: when I initially upgraded my netbook, I had a weird combination of old UNE and new Unity UNE....until I ran 'apt-get autoremove'
<seb128> kenvandine, want to add an update for dx or ols?
<robbiew> is that expected?
<kenvandine> ok
<kenvandine> big thing for dx right now is appmenus, we are getting that stuff into maverick now and will do MIRs for them next week
<seb128> robbiew, no, maybe you did catch it during the transition? it worked fine there... could you open a bug and we will check
<kenvandine> and along with that comes a number of library updates, which have been trickling in
<kenvandine> indicator-network will go into maverick next week, but not seeded
<robbiew> seb128: ah...I think that was it...no need for a bug
<robbiew> kenvandine: anything else?
<kenvandine> davidbarth, anything else?
<davidbarth> kenvandine: yep
<robbiew> [TOPIC] DX
<MootBot> New Topic:  DX
<davidbarth> hiya
<davidbarth> so for the dx specific bits, you can see the report (hot of the press ;) at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus#preview
<davidbarth> (well remove the #preview)
<davidbarth> a few words on alpha-1 first
<davidbarth> as we were targetting it spefically for appmenu
<davidbarth> so that part of the plan went well ;) http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-dx-team-maverick-alpha-1.html
<ogra> A2 you mean ? (A1 is over)
<davidbarth> now we're in alpha-2, it's a bit more tough:
<davidbarth> our main focus is on:
<davidbarth> dx-m-app-menubar
<davidbarth> app. switching available; no other major feature released this week; and a big call for testing!
<davidbarth> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationMenu for how you can help
<davidbarth> dx-m-gtk-enhancements
<davidbarth> argb released in maverick
<davidbarth> blacklist support added
<davidbarth> csd currently on hold, reviewing feedback and plans with stakeholders and community
<davidbarth> dx-m-sound-menu-v2
<davidbarth> registration API released; mpris test harness
<davidbarth> work this week on the new menu elements
<davidbarth> no release this week
<davidbarth> all other blueprints, not started:
<davidbarth> dx-m-indicator-clock
<davidbarth> dx-m-indicator-messages (will be descoped and managed at the bug fix level directly)
<davidbarth> dx-m-indicator-me - bug fixes too at this stage, not started either
<davidbarth> sor for the DX/desktop part, we're still all on appmenubar now, making sure it's baked for a2, so we can switch to something else after that
<davidbarth> Netbook rocks: there's been a new Unity release this week again:
<davidbarth> dx-m-unity-une-integration
<davidbarth> New release this week: 0.2.8
<davidbarth> Single menubar support, and tons of goodness internally
<davidbarth> Also works with the new bamf system now
<davidbarth> Lucid PPA also available at: http://launchpad.net/~canonical-dx-team/+archive/une
<davidbarth> and on the network front (for the netbook target):
<davidbarth> dx-m-indicator-network
<davidbarth> backend bugfixes, all of them upstreamed in connman and ofono
<davidbarth> Builds available in a dedicated ppa (lucid): see https://launchpad.net/~indicator-network-developers/+archive/ppa
<davidbarth> On its way to Maverick as an installable option, ie /not by default, not even on UNE yet/
<davidbarth> the backend work goes well, but we're currently on hold for the UI/setttings bits
<davidbarth> no particular bugs on our radar, either desktop or unity
<davidbarth> but we're keeping a list of weekly bugs/tasks at:
<davidbarth> https://launchpad.net/ayatana/+milestone/maverick-alpha-2
<davidbarth> and
<davidbarth> https://edge.launchpad.net/unity/+milestone/0.2.10
<davidbarth> and that's it for me!
<davidbarth> questions?
<robbiew> davidbarth: so some of the a2 blueprints you just mentioned still have a1 targets
<davidbarth> i assume the silence is due to people digesting my irc'reah
<robbiew> can you make sure those are corrected?
<davidbarth> right, i will move then to a2 so they can show up properly on the lists
<robbiew> thanks!
<robbiew> okay...thnx davidbarth
<robbiew> [TOPIC] ARM
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM
 * ogra waves ... sitting in an exciting talk about linaro at LinuxTag
<robbiew> formerly known as Ubuntu Mobile :)
<ogra> :)
<ogra> Detailed status at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Short summary:
<ogra> * Focusing on map3/4 images, we're waiting for teh kernel team for an omap4 tree (ubuntu based branch recieved today from TI)
<ogra> * Some omap3 bugs
<ogra> * Not much work on FTBFS list yet, will start to rock and roll as soon as the image stuff landed
<ogra> ..
<ogra> A2 status:
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-2.html
<ogra> (only one spec we're all focusing on, the chart should look good by end of next week)
<ogra> ..
<ogra> A2 targeted specs:
<ogra> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/preinstalled-sd-card-images-for-omap
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Current Bugs:
<ogra> bug 592688
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 592688 in linux-ti-omap (Ubuntu Maverick) "Timing issues with certain SD cards on beagleboard" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/592688
<ogra> bug 592045
<ogra> bug 586386
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 592045 in x-loader-omap4 (Ubuntu Maverick) "[MIR] x-loader/x-loader-omap4/u-boot-omap3/u-boot-omap4" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/592045
<ogra> bug 589624
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 586386 in linux-ti-omap (Ubuntu Maverick) "omap3 kernel should hand over all comdline args to the init environment" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/586386
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 589624 in linux (Ubuntu) "[Maverick] omap flavour does not work on beagle XM board" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/589624
<ogra> ..
<ogra> * We couldnt do much omap specific testing yet due to lacking images, so bug amount is still low, will rise towards A2 if people have images to test
<ogra> * There are intrusive changes to the build infrastructure ahead pre-A2 !
<ogra> we're not fully through the reanming process yet, (david is on vacation, we'll start to address that next week)
<ogra> questions ?
<robbiew> thnx ogra
<robbiew> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<robbiew> I don't think there's anything for this week...but just in case
<robbiew> awlrighty then...moving on
<ScottK> No, nothing here
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Downstream Derivatives
<MootBot> New Topic:  Downstream Derivatives
<robbiew> new topic added
<robbiew> as I had a feature milestoned
<robbiew> from Linaro
 * JamieBennett waves
<JamieBennett> Overall cycle specs done; spliting up into milestone chunks will be done for next meeting.
<JamieBennett> New people coming on board and a bit of spec/work item modifying but good progress.
<JamieBennett> Foundations
<JamieBennett> Toolchain selection spec is worth mentioning. Basically, it had a slow start but we worked with Code Sourcery, who just joined our effort, and they provided doko with an initial patch; we have a first pass on the toolchain source and we need to finish the packaging.
<JamieBennett> We also need to refactor the work items after the sprint held this week but good progress is being made.
<JamieBennett> User Platforms
<JamieBennett> Changes planned with archive impact planned for alpha-2 by user-platform:
<JamieBennett> Get mesa/clutter/unity packaging for gles/egl in archive
<JamieBennett> Start on getting qt-on-embedded packaged and in the archive
<JamieBennett> Packaging up easy gps stuff like the gps widget and gypsy
<JamieBennett> If time allows a few meego components may be added to the archive that we currently dont have ... but those wouldnt touch package currently used in the ubuntu seeds
<JamieBennett> Some telephony packages may need adding
<JamieBennett> Infrastructure
<JamieBennett> Everything on track, work is ongoing, nothing to report atm.
<JamieBennett> that is all
<robbiew> Thanks JamieBennett.  FWIW, other derivatives are welcomed/encouraged to get their features in Ubuntu...if they make sense and we agree to them ;)
<JamieBennett> sure
<robbiew> and if so...we can cover them in this section
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Known Regressions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Known Regressions
<robbiew> for Maverick, only see bug 588861
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 588861 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "Instances block in pending state, and don't start" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/588861
<robbiew> and bug 560717
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 560717 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "ports kernel lacks device-mapper as built-in (causes LVM not to activate)" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/560717
<robbiew> both well in hand
<Daviey> first one makes me sad :(
<robbiew> all regressions make me sad
<robbiew> :*(
<robbiew> [TOPIC] 10.04.1 LTS
<MootBot> New Topic:  10.04.1 LTS
<robbiew> Just need to keep folks aware
<robbiew> not expecting reports on milestoned bugs...just yet ;)
 * jdstrand can report on his
<robbiew> for those wanting some cozy night reading: http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+bugs?field.milestone=27560
<robbiew> jdstrand: sure
<robbiew> bah.../me put the wrong link in
<robbiew> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone=27565
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone=27565
<jdstrand> bug #545795 got a patch submitted today
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 545795 in libvirt (Ubuntu Maverick) "apparmor driver blocks access to hostdev and pcidev devices" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/545795
<robbiew> nice!
<jdstrand> happily, it is very small and sane
<jdstrand> :)
<ScottK> I guess my comment on Bug #586497 fits better here.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 586497 in packagekit (Ubuntu Lucid) "kpackagekit install security update in automatic mode without authorization" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/586497
<jdstrand> so I'll work on that next week probably, when I do my libvirt merge for maverick
<jdstrand> (assuming I can get to it... I keep trying)
<robbiew> ScottK: ack
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<robbiew> any other business?
<robbiew> questions...comments...rants...compliments...etc
<ScottK> robbiew: Your script put quassel bugs in Universe, but it's in Main.
<ScottK> (for the 10.04.1 stuff)
<ScottK> (one more SRU I need to do ....)
<robbiew> doh!
<robbiew> ScottK: noted...sorry and thnx
<robbiew> heh...my script
<ScottK> No problem.
<robbiew> no script...just my brain :/
<robbiew> okay folks...guess that's it...
<ogra> :)
<robbiew> oh...and Go USA! Whoop those Brits tomorrow!
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:58.
<ogra> thanks :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-12
<IdleOne> meeting in 1 hour?
<nhandler> IdleOne: Yes
<IdleOne> nhandler: thank you
<ubuntujenkins> the manual meeting is in #ubuntu-manual in ten minutes not here
<nhandler> Looks like meeting time
<nhandler> jussi, topyli, Pici, tsimpson: Who is here?
<topyli> o/
<godbyk> For any Ubuntu Manual folks in here, we'll be meeting in #ubuntu-manual.
<Pici> â«
<tsimpson|n800> o/
<topyli> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:03. The chair is topyli.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<topyli> so we have a nice short agenda
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<topyli> [TOPIC] Official Adoption of the operatorguide
<MootBot> New Topic:  Official Adoption of the operatorguide
<nhandler> I can talk about it since jussi appears not to be here
<topyli> ok
<Pici> ok
<nhandler> A few meetings ago, we decided to work on creating an operator guide. Thanks to some help from the community, the guide is basically complete
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/nhandler/OperatorGuide
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/nhandler/OperatorGuide
<nhandler> I still want to add a section about when/how to escalate certain issues to the IRCC/freenode staff, but the guide is probably complete enough to officially adopt
<topyli> it's certainly useful already
<Pici> It looks good to me :)
<tsimpson|n800> it should be quite useful, especially for newer ops
<nhandler> Can anyone think of a reason not to officially adopt it and move it to the team's namespace ?
<Pici> I cannot.
<jussi> o/
<jussi> sorry im late
<tsimpson|n800> i'm happy enough with it to recommend adopting it
<nhandler> jussi: Anything you want to add about this item?
<jussi> I think it should be adopted, with the caveat that its organic and will grow as we think of stuff
<nhandler> Agreed. It is just a guide, not policy, so I think changing it is fine
<topyli> yes
<jussi> you want to have a vote?
<nhandler> If we adopt it, it might be useful to add a factoid or 2 linking to it, update some of our other wiki pages to link to it, and link to it when helping people with IRC issues
<topyli> maybe a vote is not needed, we seem to have agreement, no?
<jussi> yes, there should be an !opguide factoid
<nhandler> If nobody disagrees with my above suggestion, I can take that action
<jussi> topyli: vote makes it easier on the minutes writer ;)
<jussi> nhandler: +1
<topyli> we can [agree] :)
<Pici> [agreed]
<tsimpson|n800> it's not policy, so i guess a vote is not strictly needed
<Pici> Argh, do we have to have a vote to see whether we should vote on the document?
<topyli> hehehe
<topyli> alright then.
<jussi> whatever
<nhandler> Either way, topyli, can you give me the action?
<topyli> [VOTE] adopt the operator guide
<MootBot> Please vote on:  adopt the operator guide.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<jussi> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nhandler> +1
<Pici> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<tsimpson|n800> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tsimpson|n800. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<topyli> #endvote
<topyli> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<topyli> yay
<jussi> so, anything else?
<Pici> Anything else on the agenda?
<topyli> nhandler: you will add the factoid?
<nhandler> We need an [AGREED] and [ACTION] for that vote still topyli
<nhandler> topyli: Yeah, and update the wiki
<tsimpson|n800> let's [agreed] and [action]... what nhandler said
<topyli> [AGREED] adopt the operator guide
<MootBot> AGREED received:  adopt the operator guide
<nhandler> Did the LoCo Council have their meeting yet? I haven't seen an email to the list about the channel logging yet
<topyli> [ACTION] nhandler to update wiki and add a !opguide factoid
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to update wiki and add a !opguide factoid
<topyli> nhandler: nor i
<jussi> right, so anything else?
<jussi> any new bugs?
<nhandler> Not that I've seen. I think we got a reply on the bug we discussed at the last meeting though
<tsimpson|n800> we got a reply, but the bug is still open
<topyli> anything we can do about it? all i can think about is nag
<IdleOne> Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what is the bug in question?
<nhandler> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/guadalinex/+bug/513915
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/guadalinex/+bug/513915
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 513915 in Guadalinex "IRC Clients join Ubuntu channels by default" [Low,New]
<topyli> oh fast
<IdleOne> I see
<tsimpson|n800> they said the would be able to close the bug last week (?)
<tsimpson|n800> just haven't got the final "ok, fixed" yet
<nhandler> I think we can just wait. Not much more we need to do with that
<topyli> are we actually seeing lots of those users these days?
<tsimpson|n800> not that i can see
<topyli> yeah
<IdleOne> not as many
<IdleOne> as we used to
<jussi> Ok, not much we can do there, so anything else?
<nhandler> I don't have anything else to discuss.
<IdleOne> the bug page says fix released
<nhandler> IdleOne: Only for one of the tasks
<topyli> ok, let's wrap it up then
<tsimpson|n800> IdleOne: there are 2 tasks
<Pici> they are two different distros apparently, or something
<nhandler> topyli: You will take care of the fixed agenda items, correct?
<topyli> nhandler: yes
<topyli> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:24.
<topyli> almost forgot :)
<topyli> maybe i should actually learn to chair before chairing :)
<topyli> thanks everyone
<Pici> have a good day everyon :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-06-13
<thelinuxer> hi everyone, my name is Ahmed Toulan, the official ubuntu-eg team contact
<thelinuxer> i found out that Hardisk was applying for membership here
<thelinuxer> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/06/01/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<thelinuxer> and he was claiming that he is the team leader
<thelinuxer> I am afraid this is not correct, and the only thing he really did for the team was revamping our wiki
<thelinuxer> he only participated in a single meeting
<thelinuxer> he didn't plan our last event
<thelinuxer> can anyone tell me what should I do about it ?
<elky> thelinuxer, you should discuss this with the LoCo Council I believe
<thelinuxer> elky: can u please give the name of the loco council channel or mailing list?
<elky> I'd imagine the list would be loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com
<thelinuxer> elky: thanx
<BlackZ> thelinuxer: don't worry too much about that ... that's a reason why he hasn't the ubuntu membership, don't you think so? also, the membership board looks for testimonials :)
<thelinuxer> BlackZ: yeah I know, but I feel so #$#$%
<thelinuxer> that's not good for the team moral
<BlackZ> TheHorse: you're in the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList page for the "ubuntu-eg" team, the membership board can check that, so don't worry :)
<BlackZ> ops, thelinuxer
<BlackZ> sorry TheHorse, tab mistake
<thelinuxer> BlackZ: thanx for trying to calm me down :)
<BlackZ> thelinuxer: however I think that email doesn't exist
<BlackZ> ah no, it does :)
<thelinuxer> BlackZ: which email?
<BlackZ> thelinuxer: so send an e-mail to loco-council@lists.ubuntu.com explaining the problem
<BlackZ> as elky said
<thelinuxer> BlackZ: i am doing that right now :D
<thelinuxer> hi EgyParadox
<EgyParadox> hi thelinuxe
<EgyParadox> thelinuxer*
<wii552> um...hi?
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-06
<maco> meeting?
<stgraber> bdrung, cody-somerville, persia, Laney: ping
<Laney> \o
<stgraber> hmm, let's hope someone else shows up
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<stgraber> hey RoAkSoAx. Waiting for another DMB member to show up so we have quorum.
<RoAkSoAx> stgraber: alright!
<RoAkSoAx> thanks
<stgraber> (as we don't have any non-voting agenda item to discuss)
<Laney> I'd like to annihilate all mention of universe-contributor and call it 'contributing developer' everywhere :-)
<Laney> that is my one non-agenda wish
<stgraber> Laney: about that, would there be any (known) problem with renaming the team?
<Laney> not sure anything would depend on it
<Laney> besides potentially documentation
<ScottK> I'm not sure it's universally appropriate.
<ScottK> For Kubuntu, Kubuntu Council will process people for Kubuntu (and transitively Ubuntu) membership based on packaging work.
<Laney> people are still encouraged to approach the most specific council
<Laney> universe contributor is misleading as that is not what we are looking for really
<ScottK> As long as it's clear about most specific council, I think that's fine.
<stgraber> hey geser!
 * geser waves
<stgraber> ok, we have quorum now, let's start
<RoAkSoAx> YaY!!
<stgraber> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:31. The chair is stgraber.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<stgraber> [TOPIC] PerPackageUploader Applications: Rosen Diankov
<MootBot> New Topic:  PerPackageUploader Applications: Rosen Diankov
<rdiankov> present!
<stgraber> hi rdiankov
<stgraber> can you introduce yourself quickly?
<rdiankov> sure
<rdiankov> i'm roboticist
<rdiankov> in other words, working on AI problems involving perception and motion of machines
<rdiankov> i'm also the developer of a openrave: the open robotics automation virtual environment
<rdiankov> which is becoming very popular in the robotics community
<rdiankov> because i'm primarily using ubuntu
<rdiankov> and a lot of robotics guys are starting to use ubuntu
<rdiankov> we would like to start offering these types of robotics packages
<rdiankov> through the official venues
<rdiankov> hence my application
<rdiankov> there are also file format libraries like collada and assimp
<rdiankov> which would be also great to get into ubuntu
<geser> do any packages for openrave exist already?
<stgraber> doh, geser was faster ;)
<rdiankov> yes
<rdiankov> https://launchpad.net/~openrave/+archive/release
<rdiankov> i started a ppa
<rdiankov> basically every ubuntu release cycle
<stgraber> are any of these already in Ubuntu or Debian?
<rdiankov> no
<rdiankov> every ubuntu release cycle, it would be great if these packages are copied
<rdiankov> and put into universe
<rdiankov> or multiverse
<rdiankov> because there are no dependencies on these packages
<rdiankov> it shouldn't affect anything
<stgraber> ok, the main problem here is that we can't give upload rights to packages that don't exist in Ubuntu. Once they are in the repository (through sponsoring by an existing ubuntu developer), we can then process applications for upload rights.
<rdiankov> ok, how can we fine someone to sponsor them?
<rdiankov> find*
<stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages is the process for new packages
<stgraber> #ubuntu-motu usually has people around to help review the packages and once they are happy with them, upload them for you
<rdiankov> file a bug report in launchpad?
<stgraber> they then will be reviewed by the archive admins and once they are happy with them, they'll be in Ubuntu. When that's done, you can then request Per-Package-Upload rights to them.
<stgraber> yep, you'll need a needs-packaging bug per package, your changelog entry will need to close that bug (LP:#xxxxxx)
<rdiankov> ok, got it guys
<rdiankov> thanks!
<stgraber> no problem!
<stgraber> hope to see you apply again soon!
<stgraber> [TOPIC]
<MootBot> New Topic:
<rdiankov> of course!
<stgraber> oops (copy/paste issue)
<geser> and don't forget your sponsor to add endorsements to your application
<stgraber> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications: Ricardo Salveti
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications: Ricardo Salveti
<stgraber> hey rsalveti
<rsalveti> hey!
<rsalveti> I'm here today :-)
<stgraber> hehe
<stgraber> can you introduce yourself quickly?
<rsalveti> Hi, I'm Ricardo Salveti, currently working mostly with Ubuntu on ARM. I'm deeply involved with Ubuntu development for about one year now, working helping maintaining x-loader, u-boot, omap kernel and some other cool packages for ARM :-)
<rsalveti> I've being working with OSS for quite a while now, doing contributions in a large set of software, and as a distro developer I also worked for a while with OpenEmbedded and the debian based distro called Mamona (now basically dead).
<rsalveti> Usually around #ubuntu-arm, trying to help people getting the most we can from our ARM images, by helping with bugfixing and adding hw support (kernel, x-loader, etc).
<rsalveti> I applied for universe contributor but soon should also be applying for a dev role, like core-dev, just need to find time to prepare my application :-)
<ScottK> rsalveti: How is your script for automatic FTBFS bug filing going?  I'm sure you recall our discussion on it?
<Laney> oh, whoops, didn't noticed we'd started :P
<rsalveti> ScottK: sure, I'm currently improving svammel to have a interactive step, so I can go over the FTBFS first before opening a bug
<ScottK> That's good to hear.
<rsalveti> I should be helping going over at least the FTBFS list for arm
<rsalveti> only interested at the moment in arm specific build failures, as we can use more workforce from Linaro to help us fixing them
<stgraber> in your "What I like least in Ubuntu", you mention our SRU process. I understand that the kernel team has a different SRU process (with a release every 3 weeks IIRC) but do you see a similar issue with non-kernel packages?
<stgraber> In my experience, the SRU process improved a lot lately and I can usually get something fixed into -updates in a week (from getting the fix, uploading to -proposed, get it accepted, get it tested and then copied to -updates)
<rsalveti> Yes, my feeling is that in general once a release is out, nobody actually cares a lot about them
<rsalveti> so SRU ends up taking a lot of time
<rsalveti> in the past (maverick) I had some issues with the kernel SRU in specific
<rsalveti> that took almost 2 months to deliver the fix
<rsalveti> and asking testing for more than one time, when they released another version that contained the fix
<stgraber> was your (non-kernel) experience with a bug having a patch applied, taking long to get uploaded or in a case where the package got uploaded to -proposed and took a long time to get to -updates ?
<rsalveti> my complain was both the time to get sponsored and also to hit -updates
<rsalveti> I know it's a lot of work to keep the SRU in places, but sometimes we have issues that really affects the user
<stgraber> was that before the patch pilot program got introduced?
<stgraber> (trying to see if we're missing something on the sponsorship lists)
<rsalveti> for bug 707794 (my latest work with an SRU) it took 10 days to get sponsored
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 707794 in clementine (Ubuntu Natty) "libqt4-opengl on armel should be compiled with OpenGL ES 2.x support" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/707794
<rsalveti> against the pyside package
<rsalveti> I belive this case is enough
<rsalveti> I mean, the time it took
<ScottK> Unfortunately that package takes forever to build on armel and not many potential sponsors have the hardware to test.
<rsalveti> yeah, hopefully to get sorted with the panda build cluster
<rsalveti> now one kernel example
<rsalveti> bug 770679
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 770679 in u-boot-linaro (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Missing proper support for Beagle XM rev B and C" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/770679
<rsalveti> pull request, and SRU request sent at May 18
<rsalveti> it's fixed commited already
<rsalveti> and it basically breaks support for beagle rev C
<rsalveti> so at least for people using that hardware it's somehow critical
<rsalveti> and the fix will only hits update in probably one month from now
<rsalveti> but maybe something to bring directly with the kernel team :-)
<stgraber> yeah, kernel SRUs tend to take a lot longer, not sure what can be done to improve the delay and still keep the same QA standards
<stgraber> yep, if you have an idea of how to improve the delay, you probably should start a discussion on their ML or at next UDS
<stgraber> anyway, any other question for rsalveti?
<rsalveti> yup, will think better
<Laney> none here
<stgraber> maco, geser, Laney: ?
<maco> no
<geser> no
<stgraber> [VOTE] Ubuntu Contributing Developer membership for Ricardo Salveti
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Ubuntu Contributing Developer membership for Ricardo Salveti.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Laney> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Laney. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<maco> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<stgraber> #endvote
<stgraber> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
 * stgraber just found MootBot's man page again :)
<stgraber> congrats rsalveti!
<Laney> \o/
<rsalveti> thanks! should be back in some weeks for a dev role ;-)
<rsalveti> we'll see :-)
<stgraber> geser, maco, Laney: still going to be around for a few more minutes (so we can process RoAkSoAx's coredev application)?
<maco> sure
<Laney> yep if there's no conflict for the room
<stgraber> according to the fridge, the room isn't used
<stgraber> geser: also fine with you?
<geser> yes, I've around 30 min
<stgraber> cool
<RoAkSoAx> YaY!
<stgraber> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Core Developer Applications: RoAkSoAx
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Core Developer Applications: RoAkSoAx
<RoAkSoAx> Hi All!
<stgraber> hey RoAkSoAx!
<RoAkSoAx> My name is Andres Rodriguez, I've been involved with the community for quite a while now. I started as a translator then moved to development. I've been a MOTU for almost two years now. Throughout my work as a MOTU I've done things from simple syncs/merges all the way to package/library splits (I've done MIR reports, SRU's, packaged from scratch, bug fixing, python transitions, FTBFS, etc, etc).
<RoAkSoAx> Within packaging, python packaging is what I enjoy the most, though I don't really have any problems with working with any type of packages. There's always something new to learn.
<RoAkSoAx> I'm also the upstream maintainer of PowerNap (in main) and TestDrive. I  also currently maintain the Ubuntu HA Cluster Stack which include several packages currently in Main, which I got into Main last release cycle after various attempts of doing so. Currently I also work (mainly) on server related stuff that has spawned doing some work accross varios Ubuntu Server packages, both as a community member, as lately for work.
<RoAkSoAx> and that's pretty much about it
<RoAkSoAx> s/as/and/
<Laney> So you say that you dislike delays in sponsorship... do you plan on making this situation better by devoting some of your time to doing sponsoring? :-)
<RoAkSoAx> Laney: sure! it is not that I dislike delays in sponsoring, but rather I believe we need to improve it
<RoAkSoAx> (myself included)
<RoAkSoAx> as sometimes I've found myself having packages sitting there for days
<RoAkSoAx> sometimes resulting on some other developer doing the merge for e.g., not noticing there was a merge report already filed in
<RoAkSoAx> so that's work lost
<RoAkSoAx> but yes, I do believe we need to improve
<RoAkSoAx> it has been hugelyu improved with patch pilot but sometimes some types of packages are not touched
<RoAkSoAx> and I can't have my co-workers sponsor for me all the time
<RoAkSoAx> as they also have other stuff to work on
<RoAkSoAx> and yes, It is something that I also blame myself as I havent done much sponsoring in Universe
<RoAkSoAx> which I'd like to change
<Laney> urgh, my internet just froze â sorry
<Laney> the patch pilot process was designed to avoid certain patches being repeatedly ignored
<Laney> so if you're finding that happening then I suggest you speak to dholbach and/or rickspencer3 and try to get it sorted
<RoAkSoAx> Laney: will do ;)
<stgraber> also, were you aware of the ubuntu server packageset?
<RoAkSoAx> stgraber: yes I am, though I know nonone's in it yet
<stgraber> Dave Walker and Mathias Gug are in it
<RoAkSoAx> stgraber: AFAIK I though Dave was core dev rather than in the server package set
<RoAkSoAx> dunno about mathiaz
<RoAkSoAx> but anyways, the reason why I went to core dev directly is that I'd also like to do some greater good than just ubuntu server packages
<stgraber> yep, both of them also happen to be coredev ;)
<RoAkSoAx> i know :)
<RoAkSoAx> though, last time I spoke about it, no-one was in it yet :(
<stgraber> yeah, helping with sponsoring/merging in main is definitely a good reason to apply for core-dev :) I was just wondering if that packageset was known at all and if we should try to get more people to apply for upload rights to it.
<geser> a list of the available package set for which applicants can apply would probably help
<RoAkSoAx> i think we do, though, IMHO we don't have as many contributors as other teams do, and that's probably why the packageset is not yet well known out there
<RoAkSoAx> geser: indeed!
<stgraber> http://paste.ubuntu.com/619968/ apparently
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/619968/ apparently
<stgraber> ok, any other question for RoAkSoAx?
<geser> no
<stgraber> [VOTE] Ubuntu Core Developer membership for Andres Rodriguez
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Ubuntu Core Developer membership for Andres Rodriguez.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 * maco reads scrollback (sorry, was in bathroom)
<stgraber> maco: ok, if you have any question before voting, just go ahead and ask
<Laney> RoAkSoAx: Do you agree with your endorsers that there are no areas in which you could improve? ;-)
<RoAkSoAx> Laney: I believe there's always area of improvement, as I said earlier, you never finish learning
<RoAkSoAx> Laney: though I guess they referred to the technical skills required to be a core dev
<maco> wow very thorough application
<RoAkSoAx> but yeah, we wouldn't be in this if we wouldn't improve ourselves eventually
<Laney> anyway
<Laney> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Laney. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<maco> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<stgraber> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<stgraber> and one more core-dev!
<stgraber> congrats RoAkSoAx!
<RoAkSoAx> YaY!!!
<RoAkSoAx> stgraber: thank you!
<RoAkSoAx> Laney: geser maco thank you too guys!
<RoAkSoAx> and thank you for taking the time to process this today
<stgraber> [TOPIC] Chair for next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Chair for next meeting
<stgraber> volunteers?
<stgraber> apparently not :)
<stgraber> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<stgraber> anything else?
<maco> i suppose i could chair the next meeting, but ive never done it before
<maco> there's a bot and it does some stuff....this much ive got
<stgraber> I already added RoAkSoAx to core-dev and rsalveti to universe-contributors. Will quickly write the minutes now and figure out who I'm supposed to e-mail them too again :)
<stgraber> [ACTION] maco to chair the next DMB meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  maco to chair the next DMB meeting
<stgraber> maco: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<stgraber> maco: that's for the bot. Other than that, it's the usual, go through the agenda, copy/paste the notes in the team reports (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports) and probably e-mail it to some list (not sure which one, will figure it out after the meeting and update our wiki page)
<stgraber> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:31.
<stgraber> thanks everyone for attending!
<maco> stgraber: kk thanks
<geser> stgraber: I usually look at the last minutes to see where to mail them :)
<stgraber> geser: yep, sounds good. I'm probably going to put the post-meeting TODO at the end of the agenda so whoever chairs the meeting can just follow that.
 * skaet waves
<martins-gss> hi
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet> SRU/LTS bi-weekly synch meeting.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Reminder, please follow the convention  of using ".." on a separate line when you've finished typing.    Also, If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Release overview - skaet
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release overview - skaet
<skaet> Dapper Drake (6.06) Server EOL on June 1.   OEM is ok with cleanup of archive,  so will be working with teams to clean up the old packages and PPAs over next few weeks (and get back some space).
<skaet> .
<skaet> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
<skaet> .
<skaet> 10.04.3 - July 21 - no negative feedback so moved.
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
<skaet> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidReleaseSchedule
<skaet> ..
<ara> o/
<skaet> go ara
<ara> I have a question related to EOL
 * vanhoof looks in
<ara> we had set the date of EOL for Dapper
<ara> for the end of June
<ara> and we needed to change it last week to avoid certificates for 6.06 appearing in the site
<skaet> EOL for Dapper was June 1
<ara> I know
<ara> my question is:
<ara> are EOLs normally going to be at the beginning of the month?
<ara> (rather the end of the month=
<ScottK> It should relate to the release date.
<skaet> EOLs are a fixed period of time after the release
<skaet> date
<skaet> I'm not sure where EOL for Dapper at end of June came from as a notion.
<skaet> I'll look into it a bit offline
<ara> OK, thanks
 * skaet looks around for any other questions?
<skaet> heh,  and since I just saw sconkin join...   will move on.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kernel SRU status - sconklin
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel SRU status - sconklin
<sconklin> we just published new kernels to -proposed for the major series (and to other pockets, but that's bee resolved I think)
<sconklin> ec2 and backports for LTS will follow today or tomorrow
<sconklin> and evrification will begin, a week later than we had hoped it would
<sconklin> ..
<skaet> Thanks sconklin.
<skaet> What is the story with lucid kernel,  is that resolved and published to -proposed now?
 * skaet may have missed something in her inbox....
<pitti> the issue of having natty kernels in lucid/maverick-proposed should all be resolved now
<pitti> see u-d-a@
<sconklin> not sure what you're referrign too, but yes, there's a new Lucid that resolved past issues
<pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2011-June/000854.html
<skaet> thanks sconklin,   thats what I was wondering.
<pitti> ah, that's something else then, sorry
<skaet> thanks pitti,  yup, read that this morning.  :)
<skaet> anyone else have questions for sconklin?
<skaet> [TOPIC] General SRU status - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  General SRU status - pitti
<pitti> I'm currently wondering about the linux-lts-backport-natty in the PPA
<pitti> sec, door bell
<pitti> other than that, it's pretty much business as usual
<sconklin> pitti, first, ignore it, it will be replaced by another today
<pitti> we have some backlog in natty queue processing, I need some more hands with that
<pitti> people are uploading SRUs like crazy :)
<pitti> sconklin: ack
<sconklin> second, tose build failures are for arch's which were being tested during development and not released for stable, so they can be ignored. I'm told that they should stop happening, i.e. the natty backport is not supposed to try to build for those archs
<sconklin> ..
<pitti> the non-usual SRU thing that will happen soon is the switch from firefox 4 to 5 in natty, which will require some coordination with a full language pack refresh
<pitti> but that's pretty much understood
<pitti> ..
<skaet> thanks pitti.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] QA status - jibel
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA status - jibel
<jibel> Packages published to -proposed, -updates and -security since last week
<jibel> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sru/latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sru/latest.html
<jibel> Pending Ubuntu stable release updates
<jibel> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<jibel> There are currently 19 SRUs with Critical or High importance in -proposed waiting for verification
<jibel> 2 Critical SRUs in Natty:
<jibel>  * bug 778026 in Natty requires an Infra-red Remote Control
<jibel>  * bug 778520
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 778026 in lirc (Ubuntu Natty) "lirc-modules-source breaks in-kernel lirc support" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/778026
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 778520 in mdadm (Ubuntu Natty) "install on degraded raid1 does not boot, drops to initramfs shell" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/778520
<jibel> A couple of SRUs are targeted to 10.04.3
<jibel>  * bug 777759 : See comment #1 for verification
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 777759 in casper (Ubuntu Natty) "10.10 live CD prompts to upgrade to 11.04" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/777759
<jibel>  * bug 695842 : Requires specific Hardware (two CCISS disks and doing a RAID install on it)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 695842 in grub-installer (Ubuntu Maverick) "Cannot install on HP Proliant DL385 G7 - dual RAID controllers" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/695842
<jibel>  * 2 Wubi bugs: bug 610898, bug 742967 : Not sure of the status based on the comment in the report and I am not able to reproduce the original issue.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 610898 in lupin (Ubuntu Maverick) "grub-pc upgrade renders computer unbootable when Wubi is installed to partition other than Windows" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/610898
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 742967 in Wubi "Wubi grub prompt on install" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/742967
<jibel>  * bug 687501 : Not sure of the status and if it can be promoted to lucid-updates
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 687501 in OEM Priority Project "when installer is multipath aware, grub fails to install" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/687501
<jibel>  * bug 783836 : requires a re-producable test case
<jibel>  * bug 561750
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 783836 in openldap (Ubuntu Maverick) "slapd syncrepl failing using SASL" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/783836
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 561750 in squid (Ubuntu Maverick) "squid starts and stops immediately (after upgrade from karmic to lucid)" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/561750
<jibel> ..
<skaet> Thanks jibel,  :)
<skaet> Will work with you offline to get a summary of the 10.04.3 targetted bugs, and get it circulated.
<jibel> thanks
<skaet> On that note of 10.04.3 - Does freeze a month before make sense,  or can we make it 3 weeks?  (am thinking we want to interlock with the new SRU cycle a bit better this time?)
<skaet> sconklin, pitti,  ^^
<pitti> my gut feeling is that 3 weeks are enough; didn't we do 3 weeks for .2 as well?
<sconklin> this might be a good time to note that the kernel SRU calendar we have in google calendars all needs to be shifted a week later
<skaet> pitti,  we did a month, but I think that 3 weeks is worth trying too.
<skaet> sconklin,  ack.
<sconklin> I don't know. The kernel generally freezes a week before everything else
<bjf> skaet, we should talk to pgraner to see how he's going to be setup for supporting sru kernels
<skaet> sconklin,  ok,  I'll be working on the interlock this week, and we can see how it all lines up.
<sconklin> but generally the less freeze time the better
<bjf> skaet, i'd like to see us decouple as soon as possible for him
<sconklin> +1
<skaet> bjf,  yes,  will do.
<skaet> [TOPIC] HW certification - brendand
<MootBot> New Topic:  HW certification - brendand
<bjf> skaet, however, i recognize he has quite a load on his plate this dev cycle and not sure he'll have the resources
<brendand> Not much from our side. We are preparing to start testing Lucid, Maverick and Natty kernels once the verification phase is done.
<bjf> ..
<brendand> sconklin, any reasons why the start of the testing phase could be later than next Monday?
<brendand> ..
<skaet> thanks brendand.  :)
<skaet> sconklin?
<sconklin> brendand: we are not expecting any delays. But our tracking bug dashboard is totally unusable this morning due to the problems this morning, and I don't know how many bugs require verification
<sconklin> But I don't expect delays
<sconklin> ..
<brendand> thanks
<skaet> brendand,  are there reports from the last cycle we can look at now?
<brendand> skaet - http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/sru-testing/current
<brendand> skaet - but my understanding was these kernels were not getting published?
<skaet> Thanks brendand.
 * skaet will look at them, and do some cross correlation later. 
<skaet> any other questions for brendand?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Support priorities - martins-gss
<MootBot> New Topic:  Support priorities - martins-gss
<martins-gss> great
<martins-gss> http://people.canonical.com/~pmatulis/martin/Support-status-june-6.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pmatulis/martin/Support-status-june-6.html
<martins-gss> this is the current support escalations that we have
<martins-gss> the top three are the highest in priority at the moment
<martins-gss> http://launchpad.net/bugs/695842
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/bugs/695842
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 695842 in grub-installer (Ubuntu Maverick) "Cannot install on HP Proliant DL385 G7 - dual RAID controllers" [High,Fix committed]
<martins-gss> ubottu
<martins-gss> ubottu yes correct, next three, sorry
<ubottu> martins-gss: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<martins-gss> rails (Ubuntu)
<martins-gss> skate this is a long list, what do you want covered for this meeting?
<skaet> just the top 3 please,  so they're on the log
<martins-gss> ok
<martins-gss> http://launchpad.net/bugs/670571
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/bugs/670571
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 670571 in rails (Ubuntu) "Segmentation fault in Marshal.load" [High,Fix released]
<martins-gss> open, we have difficulty reproducing, this status shows as fixed, but is not
<martins-gss> http://launchpad.net/bugs/688703
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpad.net/bugs/688703
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 688703 in linux (Ubuntu) "[lucid] netxen_nic driver and ethernet bonding broken at boot time" [Medium,Triaged]
<martins-gss> open, high priority, need to work with developers and see if we can get hw vendor to provide equipment
<martins-gss> those are the three that I have on high status
<skaet> thanks martins-gss.    I'll work with you offline to figure out if we can get the statuses to match what you expect them to be.
<martins-gss> ok great thanks
<skaet> any one have questions for martins-gss ?
<ScottK> Might be the other way around.
<skaet> :)
<martins-gss> I am good for now
<skaet> [TOPIC] OEM priorities - vanhoof
<MootBot> New Topic:  OEM priorities - vanhoof
<vanhoof> skaet: two bugs: bug 790754 & bug 741825
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 790754 in Linux "[NATTY] RICOH [1180:e823] unable to read MMC cards" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/790754
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 741825 in alsa-driver (Ubuntu) "ATI controllers [1002:4383] and [1002:4383] (rev 40): Intermittent record and jack sense failure" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/741825
<vanhoof> skaet: both are posted, and awaiting review/ack
<vanhoof> hopefully will make next natty SRU cycle
<vanhoof> ..
<skaet> thanks vanhoof.  :)
<skaet> where are they posted
<vanhoof> for kernel team review
<skaet> coolio,  will leave it to sconklin and bjf then.  :)
<vanhoof> cool
<vanhoof> nothing else from me presently
<skaet> any questions for vanhoof?
<skaet> [TOPIC] New business, last chance for general questions? - all
<MootBot> New Topic:  New business, last chance for general questions? - all
<skaet> going once...
<skaet> twice...
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:37.
<skaet> thanks all.
<jibel> Thanks for chairing skaet !
<pitti> thanks skaet
<jdstrand> hi!
<kees> \o
 * sbeattie waves
<micahg> o/
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:16. The chair is jdstrand.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of any previous action items
<jdstrand> we actually don't have any. that is not an indication of a lack of work done :P
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<mdeslaur> hello
<jdstrand> I was on triager last week, and am on community this week
<jdstrand> I've got a qemu-kvm update I am working on
<jdstrand> (which has involved writing test-qemu.py for qrt)
<jdstrand> I hope to have that published by tomorrow
<jdstrand> the server team has been waiting on me for the final libvirt merge (they did it, but there were various reviews/issues that I am looking at (not related to the work already done-- related to some upstream changes/bugs)
<jdstrand> )
<jdstrand> jjohansen and I plan to get together on dbus/apparmor (finally) and I hope to work on that a bit this week
<jdstrand> finally, I have a pile of email I need to get through
<jjohansen> yeah we are crazy
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> kees, you're up
<kees> this week I'm in the happy place!
<mdeslaur> \o/ :)
<kees> I've got a double-patch pilot on thursday
<jdstrand> eek
<kees> (I skipped a patch pilot during uds, so I'm going to pull 8 hours thursday)
<jdstrand> well, that day is gone :P
<kees> I'm on vacation for a week starting friday
<kees> yeah
<sbeattie> (is that the not-so-happy place?)
<kees> heheh
<jdstrand> hehe
<kees> I'm getting familiar with the new bug-based workflow for kernel SRU validation
<kees> and will be continuing to work on USN correctly/building tools and LP/uct sync tools
<kees> that's it from me
<jdstrand> kees: if you have time, would you mind looking at the accountsservice and apg mirs (#785680, #785682)
<jdstrand> kees: I think it is blocking the new gnome-control-center
<jdstrand> kees: if not, we can have someone else do it
<kees> okay
<jdstrand> (seb128 requested it today)
<jdstrand> I think apg will be pretty quick, fwiw
<jdstrand> I don't know what accountservice is
<jdstrand> kees: anyhoo, if you can't get to it, feel free to handoff to someone else
 * kees nods
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> So, I just released subversion, and have a surprise flashplugin-nonfree update to do today
<jdstrand> kees: oh, and thank you for looking at those :)
<mdeslaur> after that, I'll be going down the list, and maybe doing some work items
<mdeslaur> that's it from me!
<mdeslaur> oh, I may look at nagios3
<jdstrand> sbeattie: you're next
<sbeattie> cool.
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week.
<sbeattie> I have an embargoed update on my plate.
<sbeattie> I'm also poking a bit at the dovecot qrt script after last weeks update; oneiric has dovecot 2.0.x which introduces some changes.
<sbeattie> and am investigating a related issue with dovecot.
<sbeattie> beyond that, I have some apparmor things I need to work on.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me.
<jdstrand> micahg: you're up
<micahg> still trying to figure out while I can't get the thunderbird regression to reliably fail, by EOD should know more
<micahg> there's a chrome update for the new flash that we don't need
<micahg> there should be a new chromium stable update this week or next based on the 6 week timeline
<micahg> chrisccoulson proposed a plan for the natty update to Firefox 5, I will need to discuss that with him, that will be taking my time over the weekend and next week
<micahg> Firefox 3.6.19 builds should be ready towards the end of the week, I'll get those uploaded when they're release to the beta channel
<micahg> Thunderbird 3.1.11 same as Firefox 3.6.19
<jdstrand> micahg: the tbird regression is the global menu thing?
<micahg> jdstrand: yeah, that I can verify, I just have other problems with thunderbird in the VM which my be related to my "server" vm
<micahg> but I don't remember having these issues when originally testing 3.1.10
<chrisccoulson> one person has already reported the menu bug upstream to mozilla now btw
<jdstrand> micahg: what do you think about just pushing that fix to the archive?
<jdstrand> (istr that the fix was very small and easy to verify)
<chrisccoulson> it's 1 line ;)
<micahg> jdstrand: and just blame my vm setup for the test issues?
<jdstrand> micahg: have you compared the test output from the previous builds to the current?
<micahg> jdstrand: not yet, was going to do that today and if they matched, just push it out
<jdstrand> sounds like a plan
<jdstrand> micahg: anything else?
<micahg> well, I have a short week this week, off wed/thu
<jdstrand> ok
<jdstrand> micahg: thanks
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Miscellaneous and Questions
<micahg> o/
<micahg> not done...
<jdstrand> ah
<jdstrand> micahg: please go ahead
<micahg> also, would like to get webkit 1.2.7 out before I get bogged down in the Firefox 5 migration, but have been having trouble getting through the CVEs, I think only a limited number were fixed in 1.2.6 and 1.2.7, so I'm going to look at the Debian CVE tracker today and see what they marked as fixed by these updates, and if it looks sane, upload based on that and try to push that out thursday night
<micahg> ok, that's it :)
 * jdstrand nods
<jdstrand> I will not be taking off all of next week after all. but likely take of just monday
<jdstrand> does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:44.
<jdstrand> kees, mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg: thanks!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thank you!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<kees> thanks jdstrand!
<jdstrand> sure thing!
<total08> cxz
<total08> ÃÃ°Ã¨Ã¢Ã¥Ã²
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-07
<BigMac> i just installed ubuntu 11.04, but near the end of the installation i got the message "unable to install bootloader" so i chose to proceed without installing the bootloader, and when the install process was finished, i was prompted to reboot, only to find that i got booted into windows, how do i solve this?
<highvoltage> BigMac: hi! this channel is for Ubuntu meetings, and you'll probably not find much help here. Try #ubuntu instead.
<BigMac> ok, thanks
<zul> JAMES PAGE!
<MooDoo> huh?
<sommer> o//
<Daviey> Hello Hello!
<nijaba> \o
<adam_g> o/
<Daviey> zul: It appears to be you chairing.
<smb> \o
<zul> nope i did it last week i just havent gotten the chance to update it
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<Daviey> zul: Okay
<Daviey> Daviey: It appears to be your chairing.
<Daviey> #startmeeting
<RoAkSoAx> lol
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:02. The chair is Daviey.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Daviey> which were...?
<Daviey> None, by the seems of it..
<Daviey> Okay.. moving on.
<zul> nod
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Oneiric Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric Development
<Daviey> Okay, we are exactly 1 month away from Alpha 2.
<Daviey> (scary uh?)
<hallyn> yeah it's flying
<Daviey> We need to make sure that we have set correct expectations for work we are undertaking for this subscycle.
<Daviey> Therefore, if anyone doesn't have 'enough' to keep them busy.. please resolve this...
<Daviey> ... and equally, if you have too much and suspect it will not be met by A2... also please resolve it.
<Daviey> resolve either means invent the 25th hour in a day, or speak with myself or robbiew
<Daviey> So anyone that wants to sign up to more fun stuff... please shout :-)
 * zul watches tumbleweeds go by
<Daviey> Situation where Debian has a newer version than us for packages we track is getting smaller by the day.
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> Incoming bug tracking still needs some love.
<Daviey> rocking.
<Daviey> EOF.
<NCommander> I have some things for this :-)
<Daviey> NCommander: no you don't :)  You have your OWN section :P
<NCommander> I do?
<NCommander> Excellent
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Server Team Events
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Daviey> Where will we all be?
<Daviey> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-o-ensemble-conference-talks <-- is tracking some releavnt events.
<Daviey> Anybody else going anywhere fun?
<Daviey> Ok... moving on.
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<Daviey> hggdh: around?
<nijaba> Daviey: on the previous topic, we will be at Structure in a couple weeks
<Daviey> nijaba: Oh, interesting.. who will be there?
<Daviey> (/me is convinced nijaba just wants to make the minutes harder to create afterwards)
<nijaba> Daviey: Benjamin, Juan, Mark Baker, me....
<Daviey> okay, perhaps hggdh will join us shortly
<Daviey> nijaba: thanks.
 * nijaba is just slow to react :P
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<Daviey> smb: o/
<smb> \o
<smb> Err well...
<smb> So mostly dabbling around some xen patches
<Daviey> smb: how is our lovely kernel?
<smb> Sometimes they break sometimes they work... :)
<Daviey> smb: DomU ?
<smb> Up to now yeah
<Daviey> How is Dom0 looking?
<smb> Still need to go and check dom0 usage
<Daviey> okay..
<smb> I had the feeling beside of the blkback, all config options already are set right
<hggdh> I am in, Daviey
<Daviey> smb: jjohansen was collecting some data for a matrix a while ago, did that get completed do you know?
<Daviey> hggdh: o/
<smb> There is also the iscsitarget thing, where I need to find out how best handle a need of version higher than a deb package
<smb> Daviey, He was collecting mostly for normal kernels.
<Daviey> smb: bug associated with that?
<smb> AFAIK they will work on that in Dublin
<Daviey> okay..
<Daviey> smb: Do i need to be concerned with iscsitarget?
<smb> Daviey, iscsitarget, no. I don't even know whether this is done with a bug
<smb> Daviey, Not that much it more a question of procedure
<smb> Which I need to bug some people on ubuntu devel
<RoAkSoAx> .win 3
<RoAkSoAx> argh sry :(
<Daviey> RoAkSoAx: boring you? :)
<Daviey> smb: Hmm. okay, will hold out for your mail then. :)
<smb> yup
<Daviey> smoser: Anything for smb ?
<RoAkSoAx> Daviey: no :) just checking who's making noise :P
<smb> RoAkSoAx, In doubt my neigbours
<Daviey> smb: Okay, super! Thanks
<Daviey> Happy to move on?
<smoser> i do not have naything for mr smb
<RoAkSoAx> smb: hehe
<Daviey> wow, that is a first.
<smb> smoser, You are too kind to me master
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<Daviey> NCommander: The mic is yours.
<NCommander> So work on UbuntU Server on ARM is starting in full now that we're over the A1 hump
<NCommander> (sorry, laptop is really lagging out ATM)
<NCommander> I've started work on implementing netboot images for OMAP3/4 so that we'll be able to test and use ensemble/orchastria on ARM, and shake bugs out of the alternate installer which is not regularly used on ARM images
<Daviey> NCommander: this is great, where can work be tracked?
<Daviey> NCommander: I assume you are in communication with foundations, specifically cjwatson - regarding d-i?
<NCommander> the ubuntu-armel workitem tracker and our blueprints would be the canonical place
<NCommander> Daviey: I'll kick a branch up for him to review but I generally do most of the installer work on ARM with ogra
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<Daviey> NCommander: yeah.. if you have a unoffical netboot image you want us to smoke, can you provide a url we can grab?
<ogra_> Daviey, http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> Daviey: official oneiric daily ones should pop up when all is done, I'll drop a link your way when I get that far. A large hurdle dealing with OMAP partitioning was resolved today
<NCommander> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dosfstools/+bug/794043
<ogra_> bah, NCommander was faster
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 794043 in dosfstools (Ubuntu) "mkdosfs incorrectly calculates sector total" [High,Triaged]
<Daviey> ogra_: I think the WI trackr for -armel needs refreshing :)
<Daviey> i almost had a heart attack :P
<NCommander> it does sadly :-(
<ogra_> Daviey, yeah, NCommander's specs are still missing :P
<Daviey> Looks like it's making great progress... anything else you wanted to mention?
 * ogra_ ducks 
<NCommander> More of a general announcement
<Daviey> Go ahead
<NCommander> As OMAP3/4 can't handle the alternate installer, we'll be building preinstall images, so for anyone who is interested in testing them, please be advised that they are different installation than the current server ones
<Daviey> Interesting.. what is the reasoning for OMAP3/4 not working?
<zul> besides being arm ;)
<NCommander> Daviey: limitations in the bootloader. It can only boot from SD, and the installer can not override itself
<NCommander> pandas are really meant just for dev work for the time being as they're the most common hardware. They're not ideal server hardware by any strech of the imagination
<Daviey> NCommander: I think the installer CAN overwrite itself.. if you are using mini.iso equivilant.
<NCommander> Daviey: that's the netboot/netinstall
<Daviey> yah
<Daviey> netinstall NOT netboot.
<NCommander> as another aside, PXE support has landed in the OMAP4 u-boot
<zul> \o/
<NCommander> Its not currently in archive but should land with the next u-boot update
<NCommander> (there's a PPA with it, I can find a link if anyone interested)
<Daviey> NCommander: I look forward to reading the blog post all about it.
<Daviey> The detail of the blog post will really excite me. :)
<NCommander> :-)
<Daviey> Okay.. happy to move on?
<NCommander> Anyway, does anyone have any questions about Ubuntu Server on ARM, or ARM in general?
<ogra_> when can we read that blog post ?
<Daviey> not from me... really blocked on having a server image to test. :)
<NCommander> ogra_: between now and release
<NCommander> (ideally, sometime in the next week or so)
<ogra_> NCommander, between now and release is nothing my browser takes as URL :P
<ogra_> when and where ? :)
<Daviey> Okay, moving on.. NCommander, can you ping -server when you have an image we can try :)
 * ogra_ didnt know you have a blog
<NCommander> Sure, I'll keep you apprised
<Daviey> \o/
<NCommander> ogra_: I'm on planet. My last blog post was in 2009
<NCommander> I might post in 2011
<ogra_> wow
 * Daviey jumps back
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hggdh> OK
<hggdh> two bugs of interest:
 * Daviey hopes it is the one he is thinking.
<hggdh> bug 791607 <- from A1, Euca does not start
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791607 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "Oneiric Eucalyptus fails to start up" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791607
<hggdh> and bug 790712 <- kernel OOPS on i386. I am getting this one sporadically, about 1 in 5 runs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 790712 in linux (Ubuntu) "20110531 i386 server ISO: kernel OOPS during install" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/790712
<Daviey> Okay..The packaging for euca is likely to be changing soon.. So it hasn't recieved much attention until we know how to proceed
<Daviey> smb: Seen that bug?
<hggdh> Daviey: one other thing, I thought we had NTP as a depends/recommends on current euca, could not see it
<smb> Daviey, not before now and then only what ubotu said
<Daviey> hggdh: You are correct..
<Daviey> smb: have you fixed it yet? :)
<hggdh> also, adam_g is getting his hands wet on the UEC test rig ;-)
<Daviey> smb: Okay, just wanted to make it known..
<smb> wonders take a bit of time
<adam_g> hopefully soon. :)
<Daviey> smb: On the 8th day.
<Daviey> adam_g: exciting.
 * smb goes inventing the time machine
<Daviey> hggdh / jamespage : Any news on jenkins throwing out failure emails? :)
<hggdh> Daviey: we should be looking at it next week, on the QA sprint/rally/roomba/whatchamacallit
<hggdh> Daviey: together with a potential relocation of the Jenkins server
<Daviey> hggdh: super, i think Mr Page might be joining you for a few days.
<Daviey> hggdh: anything else?
<hggdh> Daviey: no, I am done
<Daviey> hggdh: thank you sir!
<hggdh> my unending pleasure, sir
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<RoAkSoAx> sommer was back into action for ISO testing I believe
<Daviey> I saw!
<sommer> :-) hi ho
<RoAkSoAx> sommer: \o/
<Daviey> hey sommer..
<Daviey> sommer / j1mc: Do we need to re-add the docs section to the meeting?
<sommer> Daviey: maybe, I was able to add another section to the server guide before vacation.
<Daviey> sommer: I missed that, what did you do?
<sommer> I guess I'm a little unclear on the direction the server documentation should go
<sommer> Daviey: added a iscsi initiator section
<Daviey> useful++
<Daviey> sommer: Yeah.. direction is bit of an issue.. Specific ideas?
<sommer> Daviey: I kind of like j1mc's idea about looking at the Open Stack docs, and emulating their layout
<Daviey> Yeah.. I buy into that... I wanted to hear your views first tho.
<sommer> I think that's a good idea, but if I remember correctly the Open Stack docs use DocBook as well.  And I think there is still an issue in translating the DocBook format.
<sommer> I'd really like to see the server docs translated as much as possible
<Daviey> sommer: Are you happy to drive looking into it with j1mc, and report back next week with issues?
<sommer> Daviey: sure thing
<Daviey> [ACTION] sommer and j1mc to look at doc presentation.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer and j1mc to look at doc presentation.
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<Daviey> Anything from anyone else?
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> Tuesday, 14th June 2011 16:00 UTC
<Daviey> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:44.
<Daviey> Thanks all!
<Daviey> o/
<nijaba> bye
<nijaba> thanks Daviey
<sommer> thank you :-)
<NCommander> Thanks
<j1mc> Daviey: I met anne gentle a few days ago, and we went through some of how to build things out in their layout. i should have a test build available within the next few days.
<Daviey> j1mc: *rocking*
<ppisati> o/
<cking> \o
<sforshee> o/
<herton> \o
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> ##
<bjf> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<bjf> ##
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<bjf> # Meeting Etiquette
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #       'o/' indicates you have something you'd like to add (wait until you are recognized)
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Kernel news/SRU: mainly CVEs for imx51 and omap4, a small config change to avoid a kernel panic on imx51, and another config change to get lxc on omap4.
<ppisati> New 4.6 cross toolchain: lp791552 ("No USB support on beagle/beagleXM") seems it has uncovered a problem with the new 4.6 toolchain, reproduced the issue with a linaro kernel and forwarded to linaro mailing list.
<ppisati> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> == Release Metrics ==
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kt-meeting.txt
<ogasawara> === oneiric nominated bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 22 linux kernel bugs (up 2)
<ogasawara> === Ubuntu oneiric-alpha-2 bugs ===
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/kt-meeting.txt
<ogasawara>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara> === oneiric-updates bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === natty-updates bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 26 linux kernel bugs (down 1)
<ogasawara> === maverick-updates bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 3 linux kernel bugs (down 2)
<ogasawara> === lucid-updates bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 8 linux kernel bugs (down 9)
<ogasawara> === hardy-updates bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 0 linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> == Incoming Bugs ==
<ogasawara>  * 15 oneiric bugs (up 3)
<ogasawara>  * 1254 natty bugs (up 35)
<ogasawara>  * 1126 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 1034 lucid bugs (up 5)
<ogasawara>  * 38 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> == Regressions ==
<ogasawara> === regression-update bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 41 maverick bugs (down 1)
<ogasawara>  * 75 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === regression-release bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 456 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 247 maverick bugs (up 3)
<ogasawara>  * 224 lucid bugs (up 2)
<ogasawara>  * 2 hardy bugs (up 2)
<ogasawara> === regression-proposed bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 1 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ..
<ogasawara> note, I've checked in the script which generates the above into kteam-tools
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Oneiric Delta Review (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Oneiric Delta Review (ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review
<ogasawara> apw, jjohansen, lag, manjo, ralveti, rtg: you have work items to review your set of Ubuntu patches which I've postponed to Alpha-2 for you.  Please take a moment to review when you have a chance. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/KernelOneiricUbuntuDeltaReview for your specific set of patches.
<ogasawara> ..
<apw> ogasawara, thanks
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Oneiric Server Requirements (smb)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-server-requirements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Oneiric Server Requirements (smb)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-server-requirements
<smb> If jj has not started, there is no change (from not started) since last week. (which was effectively 3 days)
<smb> ..
<bjf> is there a reason to keep this on the agenda? there's been no activity since UDS
<smb> bjf, yes, I hope there will be soon
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We've almost resolved all the issues from the v3.0 fallout.  We're just wrestling with module-init-tools to get depmod sorted out.  We've rebased to v3.0-rc2 and pushed to master-next.  With v3.0-rc2, there's an issue on boot (black screen of death) when the i915 driver is loaded.  This can be worked around using i915.modeset=0 at the moment.  There's also reported boot issues on some system's with atom processors on at le
<ogasawara> ast v3.0-rc1.  So, I'm a bit hesitant to upload at the moment knowing we'll break some common hardware use cases.
<ogasawara> ..
<apw> ogasawara, ack, module init tools are very very nearly there, last reviews going on now
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Stable Kernel Team (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Stable Kernel Team (bjf)
<bjf> .
<bjf> Hardy - no bugs needing verification, moving right into QA.
<bjf> .
<bjf> Lucid and Maverick - Dealing with USB regressions. New kernels are being packaged and will be uploaded today.
<bjf> .
<bjf> Natty - A possible regression was reported, herton is investigating.
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf)
<bjf> || Package                                    || Upd/Sec              || Proposed             ||  TiP || Verified ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || hardy    linux                             || 2.6.24-29.89         || 2.6.24-29.90         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || lucid    linux-ec2                         || 2.6.32-316.31        || 2.6.32-317.33        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.32.32.24         || 2.6.32.33.25         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-lts-backport-maverick  || 2.6.35.25.36         || 2.6.35.28.37         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-lts-backport-maverick       || 2.6.35-25.44~lucid1  || 2.6.35-28.50~lucid1  ||   13 ||       13 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.32    || 2.6.32-32.32         || 2.6.32-33.33         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.34.7               || 1.34.10              ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.32-32.62         || 2.6.32-33.65         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.32.32.38         || 2.6.32.33.39         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-ec2                    || 2.6.32.316.17        || 2.6.32.317.18        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || maverick linux-ports-meta                  || 2.6.35.28.21         || 2.6.35.30.23         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.35    || 2.6.35-28.20         || 2.6.35-30.22         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta                        || 2.6.35.28.36         || 2.6.35.30.38         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-firmware                    || 1.38.6               || 1.38.8               ||    1 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.35-28.50         || 2.6.35-30.53         ||   11 ||        9 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> || natty    linux-ti-omap4                    ||                      || 2.6.38-1209.13       ||   10 ||       10 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-backports-modules-2.6.38    ||                      || 2.6.38-10.4          ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta-ti-omap4               ||                      || 2.6.38.1209.7        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux-meta                        ||                      || 2.6.38.10.24         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<bjf> || ---      linux                             ||                      || 2.6.38-10.44         ||   15 ||       11 ||
<bjf> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<bjf> first item is what to do with the Oneiric Bug Handling blueprint
<ogasawara> The majority of remaining work items center around our bug tooling and are not release critical.  IMO we don't really want/need this to be on the agenda each week.  Thoughts?
 * apw agrees
<bjf> agree
<apw> we are going to be doing what we can using tooling and the rest add hock
<apw> ..
<bjf> i'll look over the blueprint and see where i can help out
<bjf> ..
<bjf> anything else?
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:11.
<smb> thanks bjf /me runs
<MichealH> Meeting in ~5 mins, right?
<simosx> MichealH: which meeting are you looking for?
<czajkowski> MichealH: nope 9pm
<MichealH> czajkowski: The Membership one is at 9PM BST
<MichealH> ?
<czajkowski> MichealH: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=7&month=6&year=2011&hour=20&min=0&sec=0&p1=0
<czajkowski> MichealH: as per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<MichealH> Oh heh, Wiki does it in UTC, My mistake...
<simosx> MichealH: it's in an hour.
<akshatj> MichealH, you are applying again
<akshatj> ?
<Daniel0108> hi akshatj
<akshatj> hi Daniel0108
<MichealH> akshatj: Yup... I beleive everything is in ship shape for it :)
<akshatj> MichealH, Good luck then
<MichealH> akshatj: Thanks :)
<Daniel0108> hi UndiFineD
<highvoltage> do we have quorum for this afternoon's meeting?
<czajkowski> I hope so
<czajkowski> I didnt go out to be here :)
<drubin> I am here
 * nhandler is around if necessary
<czajkowski> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA tonights candidates
<czajkowski> 7 mins to go
<czajkowski> nhandler: thanks
<highvoltage> great
<Daniel0108> I am here :)
 * Daniel0108 is applying for membership :)
<Epirotes> Good evening, everybody!
<Daniel0108> hey Epirotes :)
<highvoltage> czajkowski: did we decide on a chair last time?
<czajkowski> highvoltage: dont think so
<czajkowski> I can if you want chair
<czajkowski> as long as we have quorum
<czajkowski> you me, drubin stgraber ? ogra_
<MichealH> Good Evening All
<MichealH> :)
<stgraber> I'm around (though multi-tasking)
<Daniel0108> Good evening, MichealH  :)
<czajkowski> stgraber: I'm eating so does that count
<highvoltage> czajkowski: great, fire away :)
<stgraber> czajkowski: unless you have > 2 arms, it does :)
<czajkowski> 2 more mins
<czajkowski> we need ogra_ and drubin
<nhandler> czajkowski: So do you not need me?
<czajkowski> ogra_: PING!
<czajkowski> nhandler: I think we do
 * drubin is here
<czajkowski> if you can stay
<highvoltage> nhandler: seems like we'll need you on stand-by. if you have to time it would be nice if you could join anyway
<Daniel0108> hi phillw
<nhandler> czajkowski, highvoltage: Yeah, I can stay :)
<phillw> hiyas Dan
<MichealH> hey phillw
<czajkowski> thanks
<czajkowski> gimmie 1 tic
<czajkowski> trying to find the hash hey on the keyboard
<czajkowski> *mutters*
<MichealH> czajkowski: Next to enter? :P
<czajkowski> MichealH: no
<czajkowski> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:02. The chair is czajkowski.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * njin is fabiomarconi
<czajkowski> aloha and welcome to the EMEA meeting
<czajkowski> tonights list is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
 * ogra_ shades his ears 
<czajkowski> we will work in order of the list there
<ogra_> (sorry for being late)
<czajkowski> dario cavedon are you here?>
 * ic3d is Dario Cavedon
<ic3d> hello everybody!
<czajkowski> #topic ic3d
<highvoltage> [topic] ic3d
<Daniel0108> czajkowski: It's [TOPIC]
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DarioCavedon
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DarioCavedon
<highvoltage> ah right. capitals.
<Daniel0108> highvoltage: are you a chair?
<czajkowski> [TOPIC] ic3d
<MootBot> New Topic:  ic3d
<czajkowski> ic3d: welcome
<czajkowski> ic3d: so tell us about yourself ?
<ic3d> czajkowski: thanks!
<ic3d> Hello, I'm Dario Cavedon from Ubuntu Italy
 * Daniel0108 is preparing for his introduction ;)
<ic3d> I joined Ubuntu in 2006, as a translator
<czajkowski> Daniel0108: you'll get your turn.
<czajkowski> the italian loco is very active alright
<ic3d> then became ubuntu-it member since Oct 2007
<ic3d> since there I joined other groups
<ic3d> and now I'm one of the admins of Ubuntu Italian Web Team
<highvoltage> ic3d: what has been your biggest stumbling block in the ubuntu community, or what would you change if you could change any one thing?
<Azzurrio> Menopia,
<czajkowski> you have given a lot of talks as well
<ic3d> highvoltage: stumbling block? mmm... I don't think we have a big block!
<czajkowski> ic3d: what issues have you found
<czajkowski> getting people involved in translations is a good thing
<ic3d> czajkowski: that's my favourite game!
<nhandler> ic3d: Very nice work. Your wiki page is also very nice.
 * highvoltage has no other questions
<czajkowski> ic3d: what does becoming an Ubuntu member mean for you?
<ic3d> czajkowski: the biggest issue is having a continuity in contributions
 * nhandler is ready to vote
<phillw> I also love those who do 'back off ice stuff'
<phillw> ditto
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on ic3d application. ONLY BOARD MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on ic3d application. ONLY BOARD MEMBERS VOTE PLEASE..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<highvoltage> +1 [ lots of advocacy, great community and translations involvement ]
<phillw> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from phillw. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<czajkowski> phillw: STOP IT PLEASE
<ic3d> czajkowski: it means being part of a bigger family (bigger than italian one! :-)
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<phillw> czajkowski: ?
<czajkowski> phillw: you're not a board member. please do not vote.
<ogra_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra_. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<phillw> sorry, I tought it was open to ubuntu members.
<czajkowski> phillw: no i even said board members.
<drubin> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<czajkowski> #endvote
<ogra_> czajkowski, but you used caps ... thats easily overseen
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 7 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 7
<nhandler> Congratulations and welcome ic3d
<czajkowski> ogra_: clearly!
<ic3d> nhandler: thanks!
<czajkowski> cna someone update the members please to lp
<highvoltage> ic3d: congratulations and welcome!
<nhandler> I can do LP if needed
<czajkowski> nhandler: that would be great
<highvoltage> that would be great
<czajkowski> thank you
<drubin> nhandler: doing it already
<nhandler> drubin: That works :)
<ic3d> thanks to everybody!
<drubin> nhandler: ;)
<czajkowski> [TOPIC] Daniel0108
<MootBot> New Topic:  Daniel0108
<czajkowski> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Daniel0108
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Daniel0108
<czajkowski> Daniel0108: Welcome
<Daniel0108> czajkowski: thanks :)
<highvoltage> what's pubsim?
<Daniel0108> highvoltage: it's a browsergame I'm writing in my free time :)
<Daniel0108> highvoltage: and to practice PHP
<czajkowski> Daniel0108: Can you tell me a bit how you've helped to re start the loco team
<ogra_> geez, thats not a wikipage, thats a thesis !
<Daniel0108> czajkowski: okay, I revived it, after the council kicked the old admin out
<ogra_> awesome !
<Daniel0108> ogra_: thank you :)
<Daniel0108> czajkowski: I created some flyers, handed out ubuntu cds, got my friends into the team
<Daniel0108> I chaired some meetings and tried to notify the old members :)
<nhandler> Daniel0108: Out of all of your Ubuntu contributions, which type of contribution would you say you are the most proud of?
<czajkowski> Daniel0108: to be fair we didn;t just kick them out there was good reason :)
<Daniel0108> czajkowski: okay, but I don't know what the reason was, nobody wanted to tell me the reason.
<Daniel0108> nhandler: the accessibility team :)
<Daniel0108> I have many accessibility projects, for example, speechcontrol and TouchLay
<czajkowski> Daniel0108: so how do you get people involved now? do you see yourself as the team leader or do you help get people motivated ?
<Daniel0108> czajkowski: I tell people about ubuntu and tell them to try it out :)
<Daniel0108> czajkowski: and I definitely want to get people motivated
 * highvoltage is ready
 * drubin as well
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on the membership of Daniel0108 . EMEA members only vote PLEASE!
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the membership of Daniel0108 . EMEA members only vote PLEASE!.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<highvoltage> +1 [ good mentorship efforts and loco team involvement ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ogra_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra_. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nhandler> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<czajkowski> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from czajkowski. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
<drubin> +0 [Good effort but would like to see it sustained for a while first]
<MootBot> Abstention received from drubin. 2 for, 0 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now 2
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 4 abstained. Total: 2
<czajkowski> Daniel0108: I'm afraid at this time you haven't been sucessful, please don;t take it as a negative thing
<czajkowski> you are doing great work
<highvoltage> Daniel0108: yep, I think you're on the right track, please apply again in a few months!
<czajkowski> [TOPIC] MichealH
<MootBot> New Topic:  MichealH
<Daniel0108> czajkowski: okay, thank you, what was the problem?
<MichealH> Hey
<drubin> Daniel0108: Good luck hope to see you back here with the loco back up and running :)
<czajkowski> [LINK[ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichealH
<highvoltage> MichealH is pretty much part of the furniture in the emea rmb meetings already
<czajkowski> heh
<MichealH> highvoltage: Yeah lol
<MichealH> I think I know what to say next ;)
<czajkowski> MichealH: you know the drill, how are you doing in the land of Ubuntu
<highvoltage> MichealH: do you remember how many times you applied before?
<MichealH> Hello there... I am Micheal Harker! And today I am applying for Ubuntu Membership because I know I have what it takes to be one! I am a Administrator for Daniel0108's refounded loco - Ubuntu Austria and I am doing lots of Ubuntu work and external work for Ubuntu. Please look at my wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MichealH/) and I will answer any questions you may have.
<MichealH> highvoltage: 6 or 7 :P
<MichealH> But I did as everyone saked and updated my wiki
<MichealH> *asked
<MichealH> I am in full contact with my apprentice, I only contacted him yesterday (But I do not update my wiki, I really should get into the habit)
<highvoltage> MichealH: Alan Bell commented on your involvement in classroom sessions, but you don't seem to mention that anywhere on your wiki page
<czajkowski> MichealH: ok so you're in Ubuntu uk how do you help administor another teams loco with a language barrier?
<highvoltage> MichealH: could you tell us a bit more about that?
<MichealH> highvoltage: I have only done 1 session currently, but hope o do many more in the future as my first one was a success
 * charlie-tca will put in a good word for MichealH today. He is doing quite well these days. He is very helpful in those channels I am in on IRC.
<MichealH> czajkowski: I help Daniel0108 With mainly admin tasks and providing him with his own meeting bot... I am learning German too so it is a great oppertunity to put my practise into good use, while being his Admin guy!
<czajkowski> MichealH: can you tell us about your work in accessibilty ?
<highvoltage> MichealH: is there a demo site of Opunity up somewhere?
<highvoltage> (unrelated to your membership, but it just sounds interesting)
<highvoltage> other than that, nothing else from me
<MichealH> czajkowski: Sure, I get involved in The SII, which is a team now upstream from Ubuntu. They do Artifitial Intellegence and do mainly Wintermute stuff, I am not a dev so I do not know alot, But as I am a reserve trustee I get the need-to-know stuff to help manage the team
<MichealH> highvoltage: Lemme see, I have a link somewhere
<MichealH> Or the Core, running a webpage
<MichealH> *Of
<MichealH> http://u.touchlay.com/coalwater/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://u.touchlay.com/coalwater/
<MichealH> There we go!
 * phillw will quietly state that MichealH is a really good admin guy to have around.
<MichealH> Its pretty simple at the moment, But it is running the Core (It is module based, so people can develop their own plugins!
<czajkowski> we ready to vote folks ?
<MichealH> We still have the Design to do on the UI! :D
<czajkowski> [VOTE] please vote on MichealH membership. EMEA members only vote PLEASE.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on MichealH membership. EMEA members only vote PLEASE..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<MichealH> Also, coalwater is our 2nd Head of Dev, we also collaborate, but he is inactive at the moment, I think it is Real Life issues
<czajkowski> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from czajkowski. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<ogra_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra_. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<highvoltage> +1 [ contributions to forums, loco teams, helpfulness on irc channels, and general determination to become an Ubuntu member ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nhandler> +0
<drubin> +1
<MootBot> Abstention received from nhandler. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 3 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
<stgraber> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 3
<czajkowski> hmm
<czajkowski> we have a tie
<czajkowski> and we don't have a 7th person around to vote
<phillw> czajkowski: can ubuntu members vote on this one?
<nhandler> phillw: No
<czajkowski> phillw: no, it's an EMEA board meeting
<phillw> okies.
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 3
<czajkowski> it's a tie so we can either take it to the mailing list
<victorp> I think the chair should decide
<popey> That's 3+
<MichealH> czajkowski: So, what happens now?
<popey> o/ btw
<ogra_> popey, !
<highvoltage> czajkowski: didn't we decide at somepoint that someone needs +4 for membership?
<MichealH> popey: You are +1?
<popey> just arrived
<czajkowski> highvoltage: we did as there are 7 of us on the board
<czajkowski> MichealH: please dont put votes into people minds
<czajkowski> please
<MichealH> Okies
<popey> I haven't read anything, have just arrived
<czajkowski> ok so we have to move on
<czajkowski> as we're over the half way mark
<czajkowski> [TOPIC] victorp
<MootBot> New Topic:  victorp
<highvoltage> MichealH: You'll have to work a bit more at it! Good luck for next time!
<victorp> o?
<victorp> I am here
<czajkowski> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VictorPalau
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VictorPalau
<czajkowski> victorp: welcome
<victorp> I contribute on the are of Hardware Certification and Enablement. Here is a list of a few things that I have been working on in natty:
<victorp> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~vtuson/+karmaA
<victorp>     Ubuntu Certification answers - this is taken off quite well and has allowed us to rollout improvements to our websites
<victorp>     Ubuntu Component Catalog - probably a first on the linux world?
<victorp>     Listing components within the certification website
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~vtuson/+karmaA
<victorp>     Hit list of key bugs hardware support bugs - Managing these bugs on a weekly basis
<victorp>     Regular Testing for Lucid and Natty SRUs
<victorp>     frequently blogging about Ubuntu
<victorp>     [LINK] http://victorpalau.net
<victorp>  
<victorp> I am also cheerleading Ubuntu Friendly in Oneiric
<victorp> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly
<MichealH> highvoltage: Does it go to the Mailing List? Or I need to re-apply later?
<victorp> and that is me :)
<czajkowski> victorp: thank you :D
<czajkowski> nice wiki page and you're doing a great job
<czajkowski> was interesting listing to you on @uupc
<victorp> thanks , doing my best
<highvoltage> MichealH: you need to re-apply later
<MichealH> highvoltage: Okay
<victorp> oh yes thank to popey for organising that
<highvoltage> victorp: some strong testimonials there, and nice wiki page!
<drubin> victorp: getting some last minute translations in there while the meeting was going on.
<victorp> ah yes, I realise that we need cehckbox translated
<czajkowski> victorp: so how would you like to see more community people get involved? spreading the word?
<victorp> for Ubuntu friendly
 * ogra_ would have put up a testimonial too, but i can +1 here instead :)
<czajkowski> yes
<victorp> yes, but also helping us shape the programme
 * highvoltage has no questions
<victorp> it is hard to decide if we should make it a black and white decision or have more of level for hardware
 * czajkowski has no further questions 
 * stgraber is ready to vote
<nhandler> victorp: Out of curiosity, how much of your contributions fall outside of your job at canonical?
 * drubin too
<victorp> difficult to say, but I tell you one thing mdz didn't ask me to do Ubuntu Friendly
<victorp> ;
<czajkowski> [VOTE] please vote on the victorp membership. EMEA members only vote, PLEASE
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the victorp membership. EMEA members only vote, PLEASE.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<drubin> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ogra_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra_. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<stgraber> +1
<czajkowski> well done and keep up the work
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<highvoltage> +1 [ great work on certification / friendly / SRUs / etc ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<nhandler> Congratulations victorp
<victorp> \o/
<czajkowski> sweet welcome victorp
<highvoltage> congratulations and welcome, victorp
<victorp> thanks! very happy here!
<ogra_> congrats, yeah :)
<drubin> added to ~ubuntumembers
<drubin> victorp: congrats!
<victorp> 2nd time lucky
<czajkowski> [TOPIC} savvas
<MootBot> New Topic: [TOPIC} savvas
<czajkowski> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/medigeek
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/medigeek
<savvas> finally :)
<czajkowski> wow what a wiki
<czajkowski> detailed
<czajkowski> :)
<savvas> Well I hope it has enough heh
<highvoltage> savvas: how long ago was IRC still popular?
<ogra_> heh, a testimonial from alkis
<czajkowski> savvas: so how do you see Ubutnu has grown in the past few years since you've gotten involved and how can we do better?
<ogra_> nice
<highvoltage> if they're from greece they better have one from alkis! :p
<savvas> highvoltage: I thought of removing that line :) it was popular in Cyprus until 5 years ago
<ogra_> highvoltage, true dat !
<savvas> czajkowski: hm, well ubuntu on the aspect of software and community has grown, that's a fact. desktop and server editions look beautiful as far I'm concerned...
<savvas> I can't think of anything bad right now, but we always have bug reports on launchpad :)
<highvoltage> savvas: I notice you've done some uploads in the past, but not much recently (https://launchpad.net/~medigeek/+related-software), what changed?
 * czajkowski has no more questions
 * drubin is ready to vote
<savvas> highvoltage: time was something I didn't have at the moment. I thought of focusing my efforts at the forums, with real people and real problems, rather than uploading packages on ppas that few will use
<czajkowski> [VOTE] please vote on savvas membership. EMEA members only vote PLEASE
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on savvas membership. EMEA members only vote PLEASE.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<drubin> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<czajkowski> massive work well done
<highvoltage> +1 [ great bug fixing efforts,  forum work, great localised documentation, and other loco work ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<ogra_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra_. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<alkisg> Congrats savvas :)
<czajkowski> w00t well done and welcome
<savvas> thank you :)
<ogra_> congrats
<czajkowski> [TOPIC} njin
<MootBot> New Topic: [TOPIC} njin
<pc_magas> Hello what I missed
<highvoltage> congratulations and welcome!
<czajkowski> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabioMarconi
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FabioMarconi
<njin> hello everybody
<pc_magas> I have just see about the meeting
<czajkowski> njin: your wiki page is a bit bare
<njin> yes, i prefere triage bugs
<highvoltage> njin: you have lots of karma in launchpad, where does that come from? bug triaging?
<njin> only from
<njin> bugtriaging
<highvoltage> I hope you don't use ubuntu while driving :)
<njin> LOL
<njin> but i really want to..
<njin> but i can't
<pc_magas> <njin>If you have a deathwish....
<pc_magas> Guys what is bug triaging?
<czajkowski> pc_magas: there is a meeting going on
<nhandler> njin: Any plans to get involved with the bug control team?
<czajkowski> we can talk afterwards if you want
<pc_magas> ok
 * ogra_ just checked his bug mailbox 
<highvoltage> njin: I'll be honest with you, I doubt you'll get membership today. it's usually when someone can show that they've done significant and sustained contributions to ubuntu when they get membership. It would be great if your wiki page could have more examples of your work and testimonials from people you've worked with
<ogra_> 462 mails from njin
<njin> tes, but on first I've to learn very well kernal
<ogra_> wow
<czajkowski> njin: tbh I feel the same as highvoltage
<njin> well, thats only a wiki page
<czajkowski> isn't there anyone who could have left testimonal for you?
<ogra_> njin, you really need to do something with the wiki ... your contribution is awesome but needs to be put on it
<nhandler> Yep. Your contributions look great so far (based on your Launchpad profile), but a more detailed wiki would be nice
<czajkowski> njin: which is what we look at
<njin> I start my work with the com munity on ityalian forum
<njin> in the 2008
<highvoltage> njin: indeed, although it's the content of the wiki page we're more interested in than the page itself
<njin> then I join iso-testing team
<nhandler> The testimonials are also rather important, as they come from people you have worked with. As a result, those people tend to know you better than we do
<czajkowski> njin: the italian loco does great work surely somone on the iso team there could have left a comment.
<njin> a nd i've translated kvm and arm for the doc team, but bugsquad really catch all of my time
<highvoltage> njin: those are great things! it would be incredibly useful if you could list that on your wiki page along with the work that you have done on those teams
<czajkowski> we're going to have to move on we;re nearly out of time
<czajkowski> [vote] please vote on njin membership. EMEA members only PLEASE
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on njin membership. EMEA members only PLEASE.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<highvoltage> ah that's where your translation karma came from then
 * highvoltage is really tempted to give njin the benefit of the doubt
<ogra_> njin, ping me next week, i'll happily write a testimonial for the bugwork
<nhandler> -1 (Great contributions, but please update your wiki page and add some testimonials. Then, come back next time.)
<MootBot> -1 received from nhandler. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<njin> I think from rosetta, i don't remember, karma go up and down
<czajkowski> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from czajkowski. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<stgraber> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from stgraber. 0 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -3
<highvoltage> +1 [ great work so far, but would like to see more documentation ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 1 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<highvoltage> no no no
<highvoltage> -1
<ogra_> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from ogra_. 1 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -2
<drubin> -1 [For now would like to see you back really soon]
<MootBot> -1 received from drubin. 1 for, 4 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -3
<highvoltage> not sure what mootbot did with mine, but it was meant to be a -1
<highvoltage> (sorry)
<czajkowski> nhandler: ??
<nhandler> czajkowski: I voted
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 4 against. 1 abstained. Total: -3
<czajkowski> blind
<highvoltage> (-4 just for the record)
<czajkowski> oh he;s gone
<czajkowski> :(
<czajkowski> [TOPIC] Epirotes
<MootBot> New Topic:  Epirotes
<czajkowski> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/epirotes
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/epirotes
<czajkowski> Epirotes: last but not least :)
<czajkowski> welcome
<highvoltage> 16:57 < czajkowski> [TOPIC] Epirotes
<highvoltage> 16:57 < MootBot> New Topic:  Epirotes
<Epirotes> Thank you!
<highvoltage> (sorry again, *bashes keyboard into submission*)
<Epirotes> My name is Elias Epirotes.
<Epirotes> I was introduced to ubuntu by a friend in 2007 who insisted that I try it out.
<Epirotes> In November 2008 I joined the forum of the Greek community where I eventually became a moderator last summer.
<czajkowski> highvoltage: gesh you'd swear you werent paying attention :p
<Epirotes> Since 2009, I also participate in translations in lauchpad.
<czajkowski> nicely laid out wiki , thank you . makes our life a lot easier
<Epirotes> thanks
<czajkowski> Epirotes: so how would you like to get more people involved in Ubuntu ?
 * highvoltage is ready to vote
<Epirotes> I would really love that and I'm already doing the best I can.
<Epirotes> I believe that open source software in general is way to go in future, especially here in Greece.
<czajkowski> "D
<czajkowski> :D
<czajkowski> [VOTE] please vote on the membership of Epirotes . EMEA members only, PLEASE
<MootBot> Please vote on:  please vote on the membership of Epirotes . EMEA members only, PLEASE.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ogra_> alkisg, you have been busy writing testimonials recently :)
<ogra_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra_. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pc_magas> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pc_magas. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<drubin> +1 [Good continued forum contributions]
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<highvoltage> +1 [ great loco work and translations and good testimonials from prominent members ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<czajkowski> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<drubin> pc_magas: you aren't allowed to vote
<czajkowski> welcome abord
<alkisg> ogra_: it was completely random that I saw their applications 30 minutes ago :D
<alkisg> Congrats Elias
<czajkowski> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:03.
<Epirotes> Thank you very much; it is an honor.
<czajkowski> thank you all for coming
<savvas> woohoo! :)
<highvoltage> congratulations and welcome, Epirotes
<ogra_> alkisg, heh
<czajkowski> more new Ubuntu members :D
<Daniel0108> czajkowski: when do you suggest me to re-apply? :)
<nhandler> Congratulations to all of the new members
<Epirotes> highvoltage: thank you
<drubin> added to ~ubuntumebmers Epirotes welcome :)
<czajkowski> Daniel0108: I think you need some more time and to get invovled in projects in Ubutnu and not upstream and work on getting more people here to cheer you on
<czajkowski> give it a few months
<czajkowski> nhandler: thanks for your help
<Epirotes> drubin: thank you
<Daniel0108> czajkowski: thank you very much :)
<czajkowski> highvoltage: drubin stgraber ogra_ as always it's been fun :)
<ogra_> thanks for chairing
<ogra_> :)
<czajkowski> ogra_: one of these days you're chairing :)
<highvoltage> yep, thanks to all and thanks to czajkowski for chairing
<drubin> czajkowski: ^5 thanks for chairing
<ogra_> and for the wakeup ping
<pleia2> just waiting to get quorum for the CC meeting
<czajkowski> right now to go and break my other machine as it wont work
<czajkowski> toodles
 * pleia2 waves to mdke 
<mdke> evenin
<czajkowski> pleia2: sorry we went a bit over
<nhandler> czajkowski: You are welcome
 * mdke waves back
 * Technoviking is here
<highvoltage> eek, I forgot to add my CC agenda item (the sabdfl process I mentioned during the Ask Mark session at UDS), but I haven't really prepared so I can add that for next time
<pleia2> ok :)
 * jono waves
<mdke> highvoltage: sounds good. Could you add a link to some context for those who missed that?
<mdke> (on the agenda)
<highvoltage> mdke: will do, that's pretty much the main thing I need to do in preperation
<mdke> coolio
<mdke> how many do we need for quorum?
<Technoviking> 4
<mdke> maybe popey will make it
<jono> I believe Mark is traveling right now
<mdke> yeah, he said that he can't make it
<jono> np
<pleia2> well, we can probably start the meeting even without quorum
<pleia2> we can take things to the list if we need to vote or anything
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:12. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Governance Boards (staffing, feedback/reports)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Governance Boards (staffing, feedback/reports)
<mako> greetings
<pleia2> I added this before UDS, but I think we've got it sorted
<mdke> hey mako
<pleia2> so unless anyone has comments, I'm just going to pull it from the agenda
<Technoviking> walking back my office, wireless will disappear for a sec, will red buffer
<mdke> pleia2: none from me
<pleia2> is
<pleia2> is nathan-bahn here?
<pleia2> I think this sounder agenda item may be leftover, and I think that issue is closed anyway
<mdke> I recall that this was already discussed a second time at a recent meeting
<pleia2> yeah
<pleia2> [TOPIC] General
<MootBot> New Topic:  General
<pleia2> anything anyone wants to bring up which isn't on the agenda?
<Technoviking> back
<mdke> if nathan-bahn is reading and has something to add, perhaps he could email us with context on any additional issues that he would like to raise that wasn't covered in the previous discussion
<jono> nothing to add to the agenda from me
<highvoltage> mdke: added it to the talk page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda/talk (will link to there)
<mdke> highvoltage: thanks
<mdke> highvoltage: will read with interest, although I guess we should deal with it in a meeting when Mark is present
<highvoltage> mdke: indeed
<pleia2> ok, anything else?
<mako> i am happy to speak to my understanding of the sabdfl-veto stuff
<czajkowski> I'd be interested to hear more on it
<mako> from a communitygovernance perspective (AIUI) there is no such thing
<highvoltage> indeed, I looked very hard for it :)
<mako> according to my memory (and, fwiw, http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/governance as well) mark has a *casting* vote
<mako> on both the CC and the TB
<mako> that essentially only comes into play in the context of deadlocks
<mako> i've been on the CC since the beginning and i am pretty sure it has never been used on the cc. not sure about the tb
<mdke> I think that in practice that doesn't reflect reality though
<mako> now, mark plays another role in the process
<mdke> ah sorry, carry on
<mako> which is that he funds development and indirectly pays everyone who works on canonical
<mako> and, in that capacity, also controls several resources like the ubuntu trademark
<mako> and although the community and community governance may be consulted (perhaps even asked in decide with votes?, although i can't remember any examples)
<mako> its essentially his decision. i think you can think of that like a sabdfl veto
<mako> although i don't think that's a particularly useful or accurate way of describing the political structure
<highvoltage> people do often say that something has been "sabdfl'd" though. I guess it's probably something that happens more within Canonical than in the Ubuntu community directly
<highvoltage> in that case it might not be as relevant
<mako> there certainly have been examples of decisions that mark, as head of canonical, decided not to have the CC decide
<mako> highvoltage: i think people are using terms that are somewhere between vague and incorrect. you should correct them or ask them to be more clear :)
<czajkowski> highvoltage: can you give an example of something being sabdfl'd ??
<mdke> I think we should distinguish between two types of "sabdflication"
<mdke> (good word, btw)
<mdke> the first is the type mako is talking about
<czajkowski> I'd hate for the word to become like googled :)
<highvoltage> czajkowski: not off the top of my head, but I can get some for the next meeting, it should be quite easy
<mdke> the second is where Mark just makes a proposal for a new feature or a change in the distribution; and that is taken as law because of his position
<mdke> and that is the type that highvoltage seems to be talking about. It seems useful to me to clarify that such proposals really should have discussion in the project
<highvoltage> yep
<mdke> as for the first type, I don't think there is anything we can do about it
<mako> sure. i also think that there are people who think becaues mark has suggested something, nobody else can disagree with it.
<mdke> as mako said, it's just a factor of Mark's roll as bankroll of the project :)
<mako> i understand that. but i would encourage people to step up and let their opinion be known if they disagree. mark has suggested a number of features which, due to reactions by others, have not worked out.. quite a few actually :)
<mdke> yep. highvoltage's proposal seems to be a way of making that process more explicit
<mdke> particularly if Mark himself is amenable to the idea
<mdke> and we might be able to clarify the role of the sabdfl in the process, to clear up some of the confusion that mako has mentioned
<pleia2> so do we want to pick this up at the next meeting with mark?
<mako> i tend to think we have more than enough sabdfl-specific infrastructure (governance and otherwise) but am generally interested in thing that will increase dialog and remove social barrirers to more meaningful participation :)
<mdke> pleia2: I'm in favour of doing that, yes
<mako> my guess is that, in general, people are reticent to publically disagree with other people who have lots of respect/authority within the project
<pleia2> highvoltage: some examples would be great for the next meeting, thanks for putting together some details :)
<mako> clearly, sabdfl is going to be top of that list. but i imagine it's a more general problem
<mdke> mako: yeah, with some exceptions :)
<highvoltage> pleia2: ok, will do. I already remembered two good ones
<mdke> mako: I think that with Mark, it is more pronounced not only because of his actual role in the project, but also because of the concept of the sabdfl that maybe portrays something slightly different from the reality
<mdke> mako: but I take your point that this phenomenon is not necessarily limited to Mark
<mako> mdke: totally :)
<pleia2> ok, we can probably wrap up then, thanks everyone
 * mdke nods, thanksall
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:35.
<mako> ciao!
 * popey arrives fashionably late
 * phillw wonders if popey would actually be on time for his own funeral :P
 * phillw runs ------>
<popey> :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-08
<highvoltage> oh man I'd so love to be late for my own funeral one day
<highvoltage> they could put it on my gravestone "He was even late for his own funeral"
<highvoltage> (bit too morbid?)
<charlie-tca> not me, I plan to be early!
<benonsoftware> Question: When is the next Asia Oceania meeting?
* benonsoftware changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Gdfrounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
* benonsoftware changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<elky> o.O
<davidcalle> Morning all
<MooDoo> davidcalle: morning
 * mvo waves
<jhunt> o/
<bdmurray> \o
 * slangasek waves
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<hannie_> Hi, I'm here for the first time and I am going to "listen"
<slangasek> hannie_: welcome :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
<MootBot> New Topic:  lightning round
<hannie_> thanks
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko csurbhi stgraber jhunt mvo ev vorlon bdmurray)
<slangasek> stgraber doko cjwatson ev vorlon csurbhi bdmurray jhunt mvo barry
<slangasek> stgraber: start the ball rolling :)
<stgraber> Fixed and released Edubuntu.
<stgraber> Worked on Arkose, blog post to come soon. I basically did a complete rewrite to python and porting to LXC.
<stgraber> Spent a bit of yesterday working on bug 482419.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 482419 in ifenslave-2.6 (Ubuntu Lucid) "802.3ad interface bonding fails if started too early" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/482419
<stgraber> Rest of the week will most likely be spent working on Arkose, getting it in shape for an upload and blogging about it as soon as possible (code is in lp:~arkose-dev/arkose/trunk)
<stgraber> Will review and upload a new sssd later this week too now that ding-libs go accepted in the archive (missing build-dep for the new sssd).
<stgraber> (done)
<stgraber> (as in, release alpha-1 of Edubuntu, obviously ;))
<barry> stgraber: is arkose compatible w/python3? :)
<stgraber> barry: not yet, but converting should be really easy :) I have a few print that python3 won't like.
<slangasek> sru for 482419 accepted into -proposed, thanks :)
<barry> stgraber: it would be fun to try.  i'd be happy to help!
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - various GCC/gnat/gcj multiarch packaging fixes
<doko> - track down unity-2d-places crash to qt4-x11 violating strict aliasing rules (with didrocks)
<doko> - track down autogen build failure
<doko> - track down binutils regressions
<doko> - update GCC packages
<doko> - syncs and merges
<stgraber> barry: ported ;) was just 7 lines to change
<doko> and multiarch enabled packages building now for unstable
<barry> stgraber: you rock!
<slangasek> yay for multiarch :)  will be flushing patches to Debian soon...
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> then maybe we can have one or two base libraries back in sync
<cjwatson> any more word on the dpkg patch review?
<slangasek> none
<slangasek> it's not critical-path for getting other packages back in sync, but it's obviously not good for Debian to not have the feature :/
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjwatson> On holiday Wed-Fri, so not much activity this week.  (I did a fun d-i port to the Yeeloong mipsel netbook in my vacation, among other things ...)
<cjwatson> Got back to live-build.  As I get into more detail the list of work items has been growing, but I think it's now complete and the remaining items are fairly easy.  I should finish this later this week.
<cjwatson> Belatedly pushed lupin changes for bug 610898 to lucid/maverick.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 610898 in Wubi "grub-pc upgrade renders computer unbootable when Wubi is installed to partition other than Windows" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/610898
<cjwatson> Moved Kubuntu seeds to ~kubuntu-dev branches.
<cjwatson> --
<cjwatson> Last week, finally managed to fix iSCSI boot (bug 728088).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 728088 in open-iscsi (Ubuntu Natty) "iscsi root with or without auth fails to boot" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/728088
<cjwatson> Continuing to help out with GHC transition.
<psurbhi> cjwatson, cool! that must have been nasty!
<psurbhi> the iscsi boot bug
<cjwatson> yes, as ever having direct access to an affected machine helped enormously
<cjwatson> I don't know how much your code does with networking as yet, but you might like to have a look at the fix
<psurbhi> ok
<psurbhi> thanks! i will do that
<cjwatson> the configure_networking interface right now is *nasty*
<cjwatson> definitely needs redesigning rather than emulating
<slangasek> cjwatson: glad that live-build porting is reaching a conclusion.  Do you know where the ARM team sits with porting their images over?
<cjwatson> I've done testing on x86 builds that are more or less equivalent from the build-script point of view to ARM images
<cjwatson> I have no remaining compatibility items that are specific to ARM
<slangasek> ok, great
<cjwatson> (fixes were: making '--initramfs none' actually work, for jasper; using mkfs.ext2/ext3 rather than genext2fs; creating swap file in ext2/ext3 images)
<cjwatson> so I intend to big-bang all flavours and architectures at once
<slangasek> \o/
<slangasek> do the release team get a training session on live-build before alpha-2? :)
<slangasek> ev:
<ev> - Spent the vast majority of the week fighting PyGI.  Got fairly fair in the
<ev>   ubiquity conversation, but hit a bit of a wall trying to port a custom
<ev>   widget (timezone map).  Putting down for the moment so as to not waste too
<ev>   much time on one workitem.
<ev> - Worked on re-proposal email for measuring installation failure and success.
<ev>   I'm going to suggest that we dive straight in to the full implementation,
<ev>   putting a checkbox on the slideshow and crash dialog for "send data to help
<ev>   improve experience."  Leaving this checked, as will be the default, will
<ev>   collect data on installation failure and success, but also the installer
<ev>   version, CD data, and some additional information that would provide a
<ev>   better picture around the failing installs.
<ev> - Read Microsoft's paper on the design of Windows Error Reporting, and replied
<ev>   to the Ubuntu Metrics team with my thoughts on how we can feed this into the
<ev>   design of the automatic crash reporting.  They've largely automated the
<ev>   traditional bug feedback loop.  Instead of the user having to file a bug,
<ev>   the developer looking it over and asking the user for more information, or
<ev>   providing an instrumented build for the user to try, both with a very long
<ev>   feedback loop, if a developer sees crashes coming through that require more
<ev>   information, they hit a flag in WER that tells subsequent clients to
<ev>   automatically collect the additional required data, or even provide a stack
<ev>   trace against every malloc call with a garbage collection done at the end to
<ev>   provide verbose information on the leak, all happening with the users only
<ev>   pressing "yes, I'd like to help Microsoft fix this."  And of course, they
<ev>   have a means of feeding updates back to the system if the bug is already
<ev>   fixed.
<ev> - Met with Christian to discuss the design work needed on Wubi this cycle.  I
<ev>   need to provide him with a screencast of the install process.
<ev> - Fairly long call with Rick, Allison, and others to discuss the state of
<ev>   Platform Futures.
<ev> (done)
<slangasek> ev: documentation of pygi still a problem?
<cjwatson> did my mail about EU privacy law concerns reach you?  I haven't seen any replies to it, and am not sure if that's due to delivery problems or because everyone's blowing me off as a loon :)
<ev> it's a ghetto.
<ev> cjwatson: they did and I was reading it over this morning
<ev> I suspect the opt-out nature of the re-proposal addresses that point, but I'm happy to run things by Amanda
<cjwatson> a checkbox (as opposed to hiding it in preseeding) would satisfy my concerns there, I think
<cjwatson> I don't recall its position on opt-in vs. opt-out
<cjwatson> but not hiding it is the main thing
<ev> indeed
<ev> I will fight hard on it being checked by default though
<ev> I don't think we're going to get good data with opt-in
<cjwatson> I don't think I personally feel strongly on that at any rate
<ev> and then there's the whole publishing battle, but I had a good chat with mdz on that
<cjwatson> we should think about Wubi though, it will need the same checkbox (since its second stage is noninteractive)
<ev> indeed, there's already a workitem for it
<ev> way ahead of you ;)
<cjwatson> heh, ok :)
<psurbhi> did vorlon, get dc?
<cjwatson> looks like it
<psurbhi> ok
<cjwatson> psurbhi: want to go ahead?
<psurbhi> i will paste in my status
<psurbhi> yeah
<psurbhi> *) short week - thursday, friday - off.
<psurbhi> *) working on writing the initctl command for changing the root filesystem
<psurbhi> *) done.
<cjwatson> heh, short and sweet :)
 * slangasek shakes his fist at freenode
<slangasek> what'd I miss? :)
<cjwatson> will paste
<slangasek> (did my own report make it through?)
<barry> slangasek: nope
<cjwatson> nope
<slangasek> k, repasting
<slangasek> * merged new pam upstream version, sweeping up the CVEs for oneiric
<slangasek> * moving some of our patches a little closer to upstream
<slangasek> * coordinating multiarch fixes into Debian
<slangasek> * various other syncs/merges (most .la files dropped last cycle for multiarch are now syncs again)
<slangasek> * will look at nfs-utils, rpcbind this week
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> questions?
<slangasek> psurbhi: initctl command for changing root filesystem> is this the same thing as serializing state to let upstart re-exec itself, or are you doing it a different way?
<psurbhi> slangasek, its achieving what run-init does in initramfs through upstart
<psurbhi> so actually it could let any init be execed (could be upstart or /bin/sh etc)
<cjwatson> no state passing
<slangasek> ah, ok
<psurbhi> yeah, no state passing yet
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> bug stats for foundations-bugs with arsenal work, push changes to collect-team-bugtotals in arsenal to gather bug stats about packages the team is    subscribed to, updating collect-team-bugtotals to get bugs tagged apport- or regression-
<bdmurray> added bug reported acknowledgement for update-manager (telling people to tag bugs distribution-upgrade)
<bdmurray> updated apt's apport package installation failure routine to include /var/log/apt/history.log and not report ENOENT bug
<bdmurray> wrote an update-manager apport hook, proposed branch for merging and had it merged / sponsored
<mvo> bdmurray:  \o/
<bdmurray> update packages-with-most-bugs-recently.py mailing list parsing script which returns most recent packages with bugs counts
<bdmurray> patch pilot
<bdmurray> wrote some apport bug patterns for foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> phone call with allison regarding bug workflow / lifecycle survey
<bdmurray> done
<jhunt> Lots of Upstart merging again. All natty feature code sent as individual
<jhunt> patches to upstart-devel and now applied to lp:upstart. Cookbook update
<jhunt> (lots more in progress due to merging). Ubuntu merge still TODO -
<jhunt> somewhat of a conflict extravaganza! :) Mailed Coverity re scanning
<jhunt> Upstart+libnih codebases - no response yet... Now starting to discuss
<jhunt> Oneiric plans on MLs. Experimentation with Abstract Jobs.  Ongoing
<jhunt> investigations into chkconfig-like tool for Upstart.
<jhunt> â
<slangasek> so as of this week, that means apport will only be sending us useful bug reports ;)
<jhunt> psurbhi: do we have a list of jobs that need to pass state btw?
<psurbhi> i thought that was plymouth and something else
<psurbhi> mentioned on the blueprint
<mvo> Short week, last thursday public holiday, friday vacation
<mvo> squid-deb-proxy: merge/cleanup debconf support, add pkgblacklist, add .d directories for destination/source/pkgblacklist, add udeb
<mvo> apt: work on abi-break branch that merges the various abi-break branches together, add distro as query string to the mirror method, make mirror ignore "#" lines, SoC work
<mvo> update-notifier: honor global disabled apport properly
<mvo> software-center: branch review/merges, make qml branch pyflakes clean, adds model tests for the qml branch, merge basic qml UI to trunk, work on improved "enum-style-idea" branch and merge to trunk, upload new version
<mvo> (done)
<barry> python3.1 rdeps eradicated (bug 791423 still outstanding); bug 634387 and bug 659738 (double motd banner); foundations-o-dhpython-transition (should have wiki page and status email rsn); foundations-o-python-versions (working on py3-on-cd data); released python 2.6.7; patch pilot; platform futures meeting; udd stakeholders meeting; done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791423 in python3.1 (Ubuntu) "python3.1 removal in oneiric, superseded by python3.2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791423
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 634387 in sysvinit (Ubuntu) "creates motd.tail on postinst, which could mean duplicate entries in /etc/motd (dup-of: 659738)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/634387
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 659738 in sysvinit (Ubuntu Lucid) "Duplicate welcome message in motd (caused by postinst script creating motd.tail file)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/659738
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 659738 in sysvinit (Ubuntu Lucid) "Duplicate welcome message in motd (caused by postinst script creating motd.tail file)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/659738
<slangasek> will be nice to finally put that motd bug to rest
<barry> slangasek: indeed.  do you have any thoughts on which patch to accept for lucid?
<slangasek> incidentally, I was going to pull lp:ubuntu/sysvinit to look at some of the history of the maintainer script, and bzr tells me it's no longer there :P
<psurbhi> jhunt, i dont really recollect which one it was.. but its some process that needs to be stoped just for the switch..! cjwatson, do you happen to know this?
<slangasek> (it used to be, because I have a branch of it locally!)
<barry> slangasek: sadly, i did not have a branch of it and had to use apt-get source.  don't know what happened to it :(
<psurbhi> jhunt, i will find this out and let you know!
<slangasek> barry: are there competing options now?  I thought the '&& ! [ -L ... ]' was the only proposal on the table
<cjwatson> psurbhi: udev?
<jhunt> psurbhi: thanks
<cjwatson> but that needs to be stopped to move it to the new root
<slangasek> barry: I guess I should raise a udd bug on that; losing the existing branch is rather an unpleasant failure mode
<psurbhi> yes, i thought it was udev, but we could just restart it without the state, it will just be slower without the state maybe..?
 * cjwatson tries to grep
<barry> slangasek: i thought there was another option (backporting oneiric's full change to lucid), but i like the !-L option a lot.  maybe i should just upload that and be done with it :)
<cjwatson> $ grep -r '/dev/\.initramfs/.*pid' /usr/share/initramfs-tools/
<cjwatson> /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-top/plymouth:/sbin/plymouthd --mode=boot --attach-to-session --pid-file=/dev/.initramfs/plymouth.pid
<psurbhi> i did remember discussing udev as that process at the UDS
<cjwatson> /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-top/bootchart:echo $! > /dev/.initramfs/bootchart.pid
<barry> slangasek: bzr bug, yes definitely!
<cjwatson> /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-bottom/plymouth:if [ -f ${rootmnt}/dev/.initramfs/plymouth.pid ]
<cjwatson> so I think NOT udev but plymouth and bootchart
<psurbhi> yes! thats it .. bootchart! :) thanks a lot!
<slangasek> barry: having looked at the differences, backporting the full change makes me nervous.  I might be less nervous if I had VCS history to look at ;P
<psurbhi> jhunt ^ so thats it - plymouth and bootchart :)
<jhunt> slangasek: lp:~jamesodhunt/sysvinit/for-slangasek
<barry> slangasek: agreed and agreed!
<jhunt> psurbhi: thanks. state saving does seem like an awful lot of work for just two jobs though :)
<slangasek> jhunt: I think that's about the same as what I have here, and predates all the interesting changes... :)
<cjwatson> state saving is more useful for upgrades
<barry> slangasek: okay, i'll upload the !-L patch to lucid-proposed
<slangasek> jhunt: thanks anyway though :)
<barry> slangasek: and there's always `bzr import-dsc`
<slangasek> yeah...
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> anything else today?
<cjwatson> not urgent right now, but we should probably start planning for the rally soon
<slangasek> yes
<ev> the idea of installing updates after downloading them in ubiquity came back up today
<ev> I'm inclined to do it
<slangasek> there's a wiki page seeded where you can post your agenda items for the rally; one sec
<cjwatson> slangasek: ah, good
<cjwatson> ev: how would we get over the problems raised last tme (essentially, what to do if you finish installation before you're finished upgrading)?
<ev> cjwatson: let it keep going until it's done, presumably with a cancel button if it hasn't started installing packages yet
<mvo> could we use unattended-upgrades in minimal-steps mode for this? it will still have a delay, but smaller
<cjwatson> or minimal-chunks mode perhaps?
<cjwatson> snap
<mvo> :)
<slangasek> https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Rally/Oneiric/Foundations
<ev> I am unfamiliar with this. Can you please point me at your manifesto? ;)
<cjwatson> /usr/bin/unattended-upgrade:upgrade_in_minimal_steps()
<mvo> ev: /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/50unattended-upgrades has some text, look for minimal seps
<mvo> steps even
<ev> thanks to the both of you
<cjwatson> remind me to spend some time optimising man-db, I bet I could speed up minimal-steps mode some
<mvo> that would be great!
<cjwatson> (though actually I don't know how much of the slowness there is per-run and how much is per-file)
<mvo> the code in u-n is currently pretty simple (== navie) there is lots of room for improvement there as well
<cjwatson> alternatively buxy's work on reorganising triggers would help too
<slangasek> anything else before we adjourn?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:59.
<slangasek> thanks, all
<stgraber> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<mvo> thanks
<psurbhi> thanks
<slangasek> please start plugging your rally agenda items into the wiki as you think of them
<jhunt> thx
<ev> thanks
<pc_magas> Kalispera
<pc_magas> Twn euxaristiwn einai simera?
<pc_magas> xaxaxaxa
<pc_magas> Sorry
<pedro_> hello
<patrickmw> hey
<bdmurray> hey
<patrickmw> jinx
<jibel> hello
<bdmurray> lets get going then
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is bdmurray.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bdmurray> the agenda is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Previous Actions
<bdmurray> bdmurray working on bugs with WORKAROUNDS
<bdmurray> So I queried the Launchpad database for ubuntu bug tasks with the word WORKAROUND in the description and found there are about 700
<bdmurray> Our guidelines say to use all caps but I might expand the query to not be case sensitive and also check comments just to see if maybe more are hiding
 * charlie-tca made it, too
<bdmurray> But regardless we have a starting number so that we can try and get workarounds used more and see what happens
<charlie-tca> I think that would be a good idea. Not everybody follows the example so closely.
<bdmurray> right and we'd also talked about adding a tag to bugs with workarounds so I could rerun the query and automatically update bugs which are following it closely and produce a list to manually review for the others
<bdmurray> [ACTION] bdmurray to query more liberally for workaround usage
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bdmurray to query more liberally for workaround usage
<bdmurray> next then
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Community Efforts/Testing
<bdmurray> jibel: ?
<jibel> I'm here
<jibel> Last week was alpha1 iso testing.
<jibel> You'll find results on the wiki:
<jibel> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/OneiricAlpha1TestReport
<jibel> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/OneiricAlpha1TestReport
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/OneiricAlpha1TestReport
<jibel> The major issues discovered are:
<jibel>  * unity-2d crashes which is a problem between gcc 4.6 and qt4-x11 violating strict aliasing rules. doko and didrocks are on it. Fix uploaded 1.5 hour ago.
<jibel>  * gnome-user-share crash: need porting to gtk3: Fixed
<jibel>  * nautlius background not redrawing: Fixed
<jibel>  * missing windows buttons: Fixed
<jibel>  * No USB support on beagle/beagleXM
<jibel>  * RAID1 Test Failed on server. Need someone to confirm.
<jibel>  * Ubiquity on Kubuntu failed
<jibel> Very few installer and Unity bugs. But since most of us are testing in VMs unity received little testing compared to unity-2d.
<jibel> The laptop tracker for Oneiric is opened.
<jibel> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-qa/2011-June/001615.html
<jibel> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-qa/2011-June/001615.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-qa/2011-June/001615.html
<jibel> Time to test alpha 1 on real iron.
<jibel> Thanks to primes2h for coordinating this effort.
<jibel> Alpha 2 testing will start on July 5th (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule)
<jibel> Followed by a week of ATI/nVidia proprietary driver testing
<jibel> and 10.04.3 the week after.
<jibel> that's all from me
<charlie-tca> o/
<jibel> any question ?
<jibel> charlie-tca, i'm all ears
<charlie-tca> general information under community testing.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu seeded lightdm as default on the cd today
<charlie-tca> We will be giving a pretty good test
<patrickmw> woot!
<charlie-tca> ..
<bdmurray> thanks jibel
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Automated/Systems Testing
<patrickmw> hello
<patrickmw> Kernel SRU:
<patrickmw> - dbench ready in kernel sru ppa
<patrickmw> - ltp in progress
<patrickmw> - yet to be completed: tbench, signaltest, tiobench, qrt
<patrickmw> - initial process defined for daily sru kernel testing vs release testing
<patrickmw> * Started reviewing ubuntu-server-iso-test project to locate
<patrickmw>  entry points for implementing kernel sru testing reqs
<patrickmw> Package testing:
<patrickmw> - collected ~60 packages from engineering teams
<patrickmw> - started adding active development branches to daily builds.  premliminary results are showing no successful test executions (for package containing tests).  after digging a bit, some of the 'test' dirs have updated timestamps that several years back.
<patrickmw> questions?
<bdmurray> thanks patrickmw
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Engineering Team Bug Status
<bdmurray> pedro_: how are things?
<pedro_> hola bdmurray, things are going good here
<pedro_> i don't have much to share except for
<pedro_> the bug day we're running tomorrow: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20110609
<pedro_> Nautilus is our next target and we already have a person smashing bugs like crazy (thanks brendan)
<pedro_> so please join us if you wanna learn a bit more about nautilus and how to perform bug triage , as always we'll be at #ubuntu-bugs
<bdmurray> wow, that's great!
<pedro_> ..
<bdmurray> This past week I wrote an update-manager apport hook which has landed in Oneiric
<bdmurray> I also got some fixes in apt which will prevent some apport-package bug reports from being filed and add in /var/log/apt/history.log to the apport-package bug reports which will provide some more context for what the user was doing
<bdmurray> Depending on how both of those work out in Oneiric I plan on SRU'ing them to previous releases
<jibel> bdmurray, yay
<charlie-tca> Thank you, that always helps!
<pedro_> nice :-)
<bdmurray> I've also been working with arsenal to gather bug stats for packages related to foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> ..
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Other Topics
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Topics
<bdmurray> are there are other topics to discuss today?
<bdmurray> okay then on to the last item
<bdmurray> [TOPIC] Next Chair
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next Chair
<bdmurray> patrickmw: perhaps you'd be interested?
<patrickmw> some of us will be in London next week and might be available
<patrickmw> including me
<patrickmw> I will accept the following week :)
<bdmurray> pedro_: then maybe you? ;-)
<pedro_> sure :-)
<patrickmw> thanks, pedro_
<pedro_> no problem
<bdmurray> pedro_: and let's not let patrickmw off the hook next week!
<patrickmw> lol
<bdmurray> [ACTION] pedro to chair next meeting on 2011-06-15
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pedro to chair next meeting on 2011-06-15
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:27.
<bdmurray> Thanks everyone
<pedro_> heh
<jibel> thanks bdmurray
<pedro_> thanks bdmurray
<patrickmw> you rock, bdmurray
<charlie-tca> thank for chairing, bdmurray
<apachelogger> good morning everyone
<apachelogger> who's here for the kubuntu meeting?
<DarkwingDuck> o/
<ulysses> \o
<yofel_> o/
<fabo> o/
<apachelogger> ScottK, neversfelde: council ping :P
<ScottK> Hello
<neversfelde> Hi
<apachelogger> I think we should be starting with the new council, DarkwingDuck is going to join us as a new member and "replacing" (for lack of a better word) rgreening.
 * DarkwingDuck waves
<apachelogger> I'd like to take the opportunity and thank Rod for his work on the Kubuntu Council over the past 2 years :)
<ScottK> +1
<neversfelde> +1
<ScottK> apachelogger: They are about the same size, so I think replacing is fine.
<apachelogger> lol
<DarkwingDuck> +1
<DarkwingDuck> :P
<apachelogger> moving on to memberships... as I cannot get hold of rbelem and c2tarun, perhaps fabo wants to start
<fabo> sure
<fabo> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/FathiBoudra
<fabo> https://launchpad.net/~fboudra
<fabo> I had previously Kubuntu membership (expired now)
<apachelogger> fabo: I suppose it only expired recently?
<fabo> mostly active these days on Debian side as Qt/KDE maintainer
<fabo> apachelogger: no, it's been since several months
<fabo> but I wasn't much active on Ubuntu side
<fabo> I'm going back to be active again
<fabo> merging and helping on Qt/KDE issues
 * ScottK can confirm that.  fabo was active in helping review proposed Qt changes today and recently.
<apachelogger> fabo: how do you like the debian <-> kubuntu relationship, anything that could be improved there?
<fabo> it's also motivated by the fact that I'm working for Linaro and have interest to make KDE rocks on ARM
 * apachelogger likes KDE on ArrM
<fabo> apachelogger: we know each other definitely and IMO have a good collaboration
<fabo> Debian Qt/KDE team doesn't move from his territory (channel) but the most impportant is here: communication, sharing work
<apachelogger> fabo: what do you think sets Kubuntu apart from other KDE software using distributions?
<fabo> apachelogger: innovation. Kubuntu takes some risk by sometime changing KDE defaults.
<fabo> e.g rekonq
<fabo> and other piece of software previously in kubuntu history
<DarkwingDuck> fabo: you think that is good or indifferent?
<ScottK> Well we're still holding onto userconfig and bambee is going to get it into kdeadmin.
<fabo> deb packages too :) .oO(after being MeeGo packager for 1 year)
<fabo> DarkwingDuck: it's good but as I said sometime risky (unity?)
<DarkwingDuck> :) thankfully unity wasn't a risk *we* took.
<fabo> it helps to differentiate from others
 * DarkwingDuck nods
<apachelogger> any more questions?
 * ScottK votes +1.
<DarkwingDuck> +1
<apachelogger> +1
<neversfelde> +1
<apachelogger> fabo: congrats, welcome back :)
<fabo> thanks for your support!
<neversfelde> fabo: wb
<DarkwingDuck> welcome back fabo
<ScottK> What's next?
 * ScottK needs to switch use his phone for a bit.
<apachelogger> making every council member an admin of the team as to not depend on JR so much
<apachelogger> currently he is the only admin
<apachelogger> advantages: other council members can add new members after election, other council members can accept team memberships
<apachelogger> I feel latter is a frequent enough use case
<apachelogger> thoughts?
 * ScottK-droid waves.
<apachelogger> ScottK-droid: did you get that last bit?
<DarkwingDuck> i think its a good failsafe if anything else
<ScottK-droid> Yes. Sounds good.
<ulysses> valami bÅrfejÅ±
<apachelogger> neversfelde: objections?
<neversfelde> apachelogger: sounds good
<apachelogger> ok, let's get Riddell_ to implement that then :)
<DarkwingDuck> +1
<apachelogger> staying ont he topic of team memberships: I propose making the kubuntu-members team invite only
<apachelogger> currently the membership application process requires one to apply for membership there *and* add oneself to a meeting for membership grilling
<apachelogger> while this makes it generally easy to make someone member (as we just need to accept the request on the team) it also enables people to apply without merit
 * Quintasan is late
<apachelogger> ever so often I clean out such pointless applications to the launchpad team, pointing people to the wiki page that describes the application process
<apachelogger> which is quite the waste of time
<apachelogger> if we made the team invite only, we could get rid of that while not really loosing anything
<ScottK-droid> Ok
 * Quintasan is not council but +1
<DarkwingDuck> +1
<neversfelde> +1
<apachelogger> changed
<apachelogger> Quintasan: perhaps you want to bring up your neon stuff before we dive into UDS?
 * ScottK-droid suggests Rodrigo is probably pulling a Rodrigo and we should make him a member anyway.
<DarkwingDuck> +1
<apachelogger> +1
<apachelogger> then again
<apachelogger> ...
<apachelogger> no grilling would be a bit unfair to others
<maco> pulling a rodrigo?
<DarkwingDuck> we know what he has done/is doing consistently
<apachelogger> how about we just grill him randomly?
<DarkwingDuck> ++
<maco> apachelogger: im not sure id call what you lot gave me a "grilling" ... maybe toasting
<ScottK-droid> Napping during sessions ..
<apachelogger> some sort of applying heat anyway :P
<Quintasan> uhhh
<Quintasan> okay, so here is a quick idea, can we get Project Neon featured on kubuntu.org in some way?
<apachelogger> DarkwingDuck, ScottK-droid, neversfelde: lets just try to get a quorum at a time where he is not pulling a rodrigo and vote then
<DarkwingDuck> apachelogger: +1
<Quintasan> apachelogger: I can try calling him :P
<apachelogger> Quintasan: if you could define the way you imagine it woudl be more discussable
<ScottK-droid> Ok
<DarkwingDuck> Quintasan: you mean a writeup/news blurb? or, a what is/how to?
<Quintasan> DarkwingDuck: yofel is already doing a monthly write up on what have we done in PN
<Quintasan> maybe we can somehow pull it into Feature Tour?
 * Quintasan thinks it is somehow risky
<Quintasan> or under the community tab
<ScottK-droid> Not feature tour.
<ScottK-droid> Community sounds good.
 * apachelogger notes that the new site will have a section for development related stuff, perhaps it might be suitable there
<Quintasan> or just stick "Adventurous users might want to try Project Neon to experience the bleeding edge features that KDE has to offer" to the end on new KDE packages announcement
<Quintasan> apachelogger: Oh, cool, if we ever get a new site ;)
<DarkwingDuck> we will. :) its on my todo from UDS
<Quintasan> cool
<yofel> yay
<apachelogger> I think community should be good for now
<neversfelde> Quintasan: what's the advantage featuring neon on kubuntu.org?
<ScottK-droid> I like community for now and devel on the new site.
<apachelogger> AS LONG AS we make it very clear that it might be breaking stuff
<neversfelde> apachelogger: ++1
<ScottK-droid> Definitely
<Quintasan> neversfelde: We can attract people who want to work on KDE (and Kubuntu therefore)
<DarkwingDuck> so, build it into the new site.
<neversfelde> our target audience are beginners and every developer should be able to find neon without having it on the website?
<ScottK-droid> When we have on.
<ScottK-droid> One
<apachelogger> neversfelde: that requires the developer to actually think of the possibility of having a thing like neon
<Quintasan> I was about to write that
<apachelogger> Also, if you look for kubuntu nightly you will find the old neon stuff
<claydoh> sorry I'm late
<Quintasan> and, we do not have anything else apart from ProjectNeon on w.k.o
<neversfelde> apachelogger, Quintasan: it was mentioned at least on prolinux
<Quintasan> What is that?
<apachelogger> german linux news website
<DarkwingDuck> ill do a writeup on it as well
<Quintasan> :O
<apachelogger> neversfelde: yet that did not help anything recent get on the first page of google search for kubuntu nightly kde
<Quintasan> Where, where, I want to see :P
<apachelogger> http://www.pro-linux.de/news/1/16807/kde-sc-taeglich-aktuell-mit-projekt-neon.html
<claydoh> is it easy to test out individual neon bits while in a normal desktop?
<yofel> :O
<Quintasan> claydoh: nope, we install everything in /opt and have a separate X session entry
<claydoh> i.e kmail2
<Quintasan> so we don't break your stable KDE settings
<neversfelde> users do not read warnings :) never
<claydoh> no, they do not. I sure don't
<ScottK> Well, after a certain point that's on them.
<Quintasan> claydoh: That's why we separated neon from normal kde install :P
<ScottK> I'd say let's wrap this up.
 * ScottK says +1 for including and leaving it up to the appropriate web minion to figure out exactly where.
<DarkwingDuck> +1
<Quintasan> +1
<apachelogger> +1 iff implications are made clear
<neversfelde> 0
<apachelogger> even though users will not read them :P
<claydoh> +1 for whatever it is that i missed :)
<apachelogger> next up: UDS results, is anyone prepared for that?
<DarkwingDuck> good, im glad you volunteered claydoh
<apachelogger> cause I fell asleep while working on it on the train home from kde sprint ^^
<DarkwingDuck> i *was* then my hdd failed
<apachelogger> right, let's make something up then ^^
<claydoh> DarkwingDuck: what did i get volunteered for? does it involve cookies?
<ScottK> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
<ScottK> It's pretty much all there.
<apachelogger> right
<DarkwingDuck> claydoh: yup. :P:P
<apachelogger> accessibiity IMHO is very doable, very important, very nice and very important, also it is important
<claydoh> I can't eat cookies anymore :( or not many
<ScottK> So if anyone doesn't like what's there, now is the time to speak up.
<DarkwingDuck> cept the wiki/h.k.o stuff. need to put that up there
<ScottK> True.
<ScottK> DarkwingDuck can fix that later though.
<DarkwingDuck> ill get that up when my lappy works
 * Quintasan got his share of workload and has no complaints
<apachelogger> community is all very awesome and we need to blog, blog and also blog, eventually blogging might also be a good thing
<ScottK> apachelogger: Our accessibility dev has been slightly distracted this week with making it so ubiquity-kde can actually install stuff.
<Quintasan> apachelogger: tomorrow, I'm having last two tests, so I can do some bloggin about uds and stuff
<maco> howdy
<claydoh> we need to put topics into a hat, so that everyone can draw one and blog on it
<apachelogger> so we should find someone to take care of ubiquity-kde so that our accessibility dev can work on important things :)
 * Quintasan hands cookies to maco
<apachelogger> Quintasan: uds is yesterday's news unless you have something terribly awesome :P
<ScottK> apachelogger: You scared the pythonic people so badly with your bashing they've all gone but maco.
<maco> apachelogger: eh im going to be having my hands in ubiquity *anyway* since part of the a11y stuff is making ubiquity setup a11y tools by default if theyre used during install
<maco> i cant really make ubiquity install and setup that stuff at the end if i cant get to the end of ubiquity
<JontheEchidna> Hey guys, sorry I'm late. Was playing videogames in Windows, so nobody was able to tell me that my in-my-head UTC conversion was off. :(
<apachelogger> ScottK: time to port ubiquity to a sane language then :P
<Quintasan> apachelogger: yeah, really, I should have written something while I was on a plane :P
<Quintasan> JontheEchidna: sup, I was late due to that as well :P
 * apachelogger files a bug
<apachelogger> so
<ScottK> apachelogger: python3 port is planned.
<apachelogger> council is all green, which is awesome
<Quintasan> Oh God.
<JontheEchidna> and also I am being told that my sister has a piano recital that I have to go to in a few minutes
<apachelogger> Thanks to ScottK for handling the elections so smoothly!
<Quintasan> yeah, good job
<ScottK> Let's have a quick +1 from the council on specs then.
<ScottK> Thanks.
<JontheEchidna> +1 on specs, no objections here
<apachelogger> +1
<DarkwingDuck> +1
<ScottK> neversfelde: ?
<ScottK> Riddell_: ?
<neversfelde> +1
<neversfelde> sorry, still working
<ScottK> No problem.
<apachelogger> jr does not seem to be around
<JontheEchidna> 4 is a majority though
<ScottK> Nope.  Just thought I'd try again.
<ScottK> Yep.
<Quintasan> apachelogger: another idea, do we want plasma-active in neon?
<apachelogger> Quintasan: lets talk about this later
<apachelogger> for now let's move to a related topic
<ScottK> Quintasan: I think up to the Neon devs.  Not a matter for Kubuntu meeting.
<apachelogger> burndown charts!
<ScottK> No
<apachelogger> like: http://status.chrisjohnston.org/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-edubuntu.html
<apachelogger> I, as chart fanboi, find them awesome
<ScottK> Pointless bureacracy that don't measure anything useful.
<apachelogger> ScottK: bureacracy?
<ScottK> paperwork
<Quintasan> PROTIP: We would have someone actually make that work
<apachelogger> ScottK: as far as I know the only thing we'd have to change is use the spec whiteboards for TODO tracking
<apachelogger> rather than the wiki page
<JontheEchidna> As long as it's just generating graph porn, then I am ok with that
<apachelogger> which quite frankly might not be a bad idea, as the todo is getting longer and longer and longer every time
<apachelogger> combined with the crappyness of the wiki it makes editing that page a bit of an adventure IMO
 * Quintasan wonders how are those graphs actually beneficial
 * ScottK needs to go.
<DarkwingDuck> im +1 using spec whitboards vice wiki todo
<DarkwingDuck> then again, im a fanboi like apachelogger
<Quintasan> Hmmm, true, while they may have no benefits at all they would be faster than w.k.o for sure
<Quintasan> Gotta love 500 erros on wiki
<DarkwingDuck> uggh
<DarkwingDuck> plus moin moin == -1
 * apachelogger notes that there is implicit advantage from them charts, which is you can point people there and go "uhhh, we are so awesome and efficient and get work done so quickly"
<JontheEchidna> If somebody is willing to make pretty graphs and policy will not be driven by them, I'd say go ahead
<Quintasan> or people can go there and go "wtf, those derps at #kubuntu-devel are doing nothing"
<DarkwingDuck> tracking progress, tasks, its so much more efficent
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: I reckon there is a script for the graph creation
<Quintasan> if the work is not progressing as smoothly as expected
<apachelogger> also it ought to be possible to do it by parsing the wiki page: BUT the slowness of the wiki gets in the way there too
<maco> Quintasan: or "woah, they're getting behind, i'd better be helpful!"  (...probably not)
<apachelogger> ^^
 * Quintasan thinks that never happens
<Quintasan> and unfortunately never will
<maco> yes, graph creation from wiki page TODOs is automated
<maco> no no bad brain
<DarkwingDuck> or, "how does a dozen people produce such quality work?"
<maco> from *launchpad* is automated
 * Quintasan is opposed to using wiki to generate this stuff
<Quintasan> If we want it to show something at all then no wiki :P
<apachelogger> is anyone strongly opposing the idea of using the lp spec whiteboards for todo tracking rather than the monolithic wiki page?
<JontheEchidna> I sometimes browse the monolith looking for things to do
<JontheEchidna> I would not like to see that go away
 * maco is asking jono/jcastro how to make burndown charts from blueprints
<Quintasan> not really, I don't care how the work list is stored as long as we get stuff done
 * Quintasan could even use Etherpad if we really had to
<DarkwingDuck> lol
<Quintasan> s/we/he
<apachelogger> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WorkItemsHowto#Generator scripts
<JontheEchidna> I would be willing to maintain the monolithic wiki todo if nobody wants to
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: better idea
<apachelogger> ....
<apachelogger> since we can probably access the whiteboards using lp api
<maco> if you look at http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-community.html you'll see that it does list what specs need work
<apachelogger> we could just have a cron job run a script that gets the data and puts it in a monolithic html page
<apachelogger> oh
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: perhaps html-report mentioned on the link I pasted is doing just that
<apachelogger> "html-report generates a HTML report with a by-blueprint, by-assignee, and by-workitem list."
<JontheEchidna> cool
<Quintasan> brb
<DarkwingDuck> i like that better then the wiki
<apachelogger> +1
<DarkwingDuck> +1
<JontheEchidna> shiny
<apachelogger> neversfelde opinions on this?
<apachelogger> one question that remains: do we want to switch now (as in for oneiric already) or for oneiric+1
<JontheEchidna> if somebody wanted to, they could use this cycle as a test, and have the new stuff concurrent with the current stuff, then switch in +1
<JontheEchidna> imo
<DarkwingDuck> +1
<Quintasan> rbelem: \o/
<DarkwingDuck> rbelem: welcome
<rbelem> :-D
<apachelogger> sounds good to me, let's do that, given I find someone to do the sync ^^
<DarkwingDuck> :D
<Quintasan> apachelogger: Grill a Rodrigo
<rbelem> hahah :-D
<neversfelde> apachelogger: no :) because I could not dollow the discussion in the last minutes
<apachelogger> now that rbelem is here, let's continue with his membership app before he falls asleep :P
<DarkwingDuck> lol
<apachelogger> neversfelde: you'll like it :P
<DarkwingDuck> i think we lost ScottK though
<rbelem> sorry for being so late
<rbelem> :-(
<apachelogger> DarkwingDuck: I might be mistaken but for membership we only need 3 acks
<neversfelde> apachelogger: kk
<DarkwingDuck> apachelogger: well, scott already voted
<apachelogger> ah, true
<apachelogger> + JontheEchidna is still here :P
<apachelogger> so
<apachelogger> ...
<apachelogger> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RodrigoBelem https://launchpad.net/~rbelem
<DarkwingDuck> lets do it!
<apachelogger> rbelem: can you tell us a bit about yourself and your work on kubuntu
<rbelem> oki
<rbelem> I'm founding member of ubuntu brasil
<rbelem> i done lot's of loco team stuff in the begining
<rbelem> *did
<JontheEchidna> gotta go, but +1 pre-emptively
<rbelem> two years ago i started writing the ubuntu mobile book
 * ScottK-droid is +1 on rbelem
<rbelem> and end up here :-D
<DarkwingDuck> rbelem: still working on kubuntu-mobile?
<rbelem> DarkwingDuck, yup
<apachelogger> rbelem: what are you future plans for kubuntu?
<rbelem> my main goal is to have kubuntu running on mobile phones and tablets
<rbelem> and contribute to kde as an ubuntu member
<apachelogger> are we going to achieve world domination with it?
<apachelogger> mobile and tablet stuff that is
<rbelem> yup :-D
<apachelogger> awesome :D
<DarkwingDuck> rbelem: do you have it running on yourmilestone yet?
<DarkwingDuck> *your milestone
<rbelem> and i want to write a second edition of the book
<neversfelde> +1 on rbelem
<neversfelde> sorry, have to leave
<apachelogger> rbelem: what qualifies you best for becoming a kubuntu member?
<rbelem> the work i've been doing with filesharing
<Quintasan> Yeah, thumbs up for that
<rbelem> and now the first stable release that we will do
 * Quintasan hands rbelem cookies
<rbelem> :-D
<DarkwingDuck> I'm +1
<apachelogger> you have been around for ages it seems, my final question is: what took you so long to consider membership? :P
<Riddell_> good evening
<DarkwingDuck> Hey JR
<Quintasan> \o
<rbelem> apachelogger, i already was a member some time ago
<apachelogger> rbelem: so you expired?
<rbelem> apachelogger, nope, i had i fight with another brazilian ubuntu member
<rbelem> he said that i was doing nothing
<rbelem> so i decided that i would apply again when i have some relevant contributions
<apachelogger> I see
<apachelogger> well
 * Quintasan thinks filesharing is relevant enough
<DarkwingDuck> and the work on Mobile
<apachelogger> I for one do not only believe that there are plenty of contributions but they are also incredibly awesome and important and relevant \o/
<apachelogger> +1 for being awesome
<rbelem> :-D
<DarkwingDuck> +1 for membership
<Quintasan> rbelem: Looks like you're in :P
<DarkwingDuck> :)
<apachelogger> Riddell_: you might want to throw in a +1 at this point
<Quintasan> +1 from ScottK and JontheEchidna as well
<DarkwingDuck> :D
<Riddell_> rbelem for membership?
<Riddell_> +1 from me
<apachelogger> yes
<Quintasan> :D
<apachelogger> 6/6 votes in favor of membership :D
<neversfelde> +1
<apachelogger> rbelem: welcome
<DarkwingDuck> There we go.
<DarkwingDuck> Welcome rbelem
<neversfelde> welcome rbelem
<rbelem> thank you very much guys
<rbelem> :-D
 * Quintasan throws confetti at rbelem
<rbelem> that's really important to me :-)
<DarkwingDuck> apachelogger: I have to run... Don't forget about tasking Riddell_ with the LP Stuff. :P:P
<ScottK-droid> Are we done?
<apachelogger> yes, I am too tired to do UDS-post discussion stuff, we can do that on the ML
<apachelogger> thank you everyone for attending!
<rbelem> :-D
<apachelogger> Riddell_: please make every kubuntu council member an admin of kubuntu council as per voting earlier
<Riddell_> ok
<apachelogger> Riddell_: no rush though, whenever you find the time :)
 * Quintasan goes back to books
<valorie> eek, did I miss the meeting?
<valorie> damn it
<valorie> ah, my phone is dead, thus no alarm for it
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-09
<ogra_> plop
<ppisati> o/
<NCommander> ##startmeeting
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> I'm lagging hidiously
<ogra_> NCommander, did someone tell infinity ?
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110609
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110609
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to trim down desktop seed on ARM
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to trim down desktop seed on ARM
<ogra_> infinity !!! welcome to the team !!! (officially now)
<ogra_> NCommander, sigh, c/o
<infinity> It wasn't official before?
<ogra_> working on it right now
<ogra_> infinity, we didnt tell the community yet :)
<NCommander> [topic]  * ogra to follow up with Linaro on binutils segfault
<MootBot> New Topic:   * ogra to follow up with Linaro on binutils segfault
<ogra_> co as well
<ogra_> (yes i suck)
 * janimo got internet connection fixed just in time for meeting
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
 * GrueMaster refrains from comment.
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-2.html
 * NCommander just closed three work items today
<janimo> some powerful cdimage dev please review my SD alignment branch kthxby
<ogra_> NCommander, can you please get the doc spec approved so i can finally reset the trendline ?
<NCommander> [action] NCommander/ogra to review janimo SD alignment branch
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander/ogra to review janimo SD alignment branch
<ogra_> i think we both did, no ?
<NCommander> ogra_: davidm on VAC so I don't know who can set it
<NCommander> I haven't had time to review
<ogra_> i said its fine to merge
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to get Documentation spec merged
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to get Documentation spec merged
<ogra_> NCommander, once again ... slangasek owns that spec
<ogra_> ;)
<NCommander> ogra_: er, no, I do.
<ogra_> approver ...
<NCommander> k
<ogra_> not david
<ogra_> i just want to get the tracjker stuff done
<NCommander> anyway, netboot images are on track to be implemented next week (mostly) I hope
<NCommander> ogra_: how are we towards starting to build server images on OMAP?
<ogra_> well, the rest of my week will be dedicated to the PPA clusetr initrd scripts ... for the headless server image infinity took over the pool spec
<ogra_> apart from that we only need some preseeding
<infinity> Is any other server-image-related stuff basically blocking on that?
<ogra_> could we please have a server topic instead ?
<ogra_> doesnt really seem appropriate for WI review
<ogra_> infinity, no, only the perinstalled headless images
<ogra_> *pre
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<infinity> Either way, quick hack for pool stuff should land soon, and then I'll work later on a less hackish live-build implementation, so we transition smoothly when that switch happens.
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<NCommander> There :-)
<ogra_> awesome !
 * ogra_ doesnt have anything else for server atm :)
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti, ppisati)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti, ppisati)
<NCommander> I'm sorry, I'm lagging badly today
<ppisati> again nothing new except for a load of CVE fixes
<ppisati> and a couple of config changes
<ppisati> one related to lxc on omap4
<ppisati> and another one about a kernel panic on imx51
 * ogra_ hasnt uploaded the ac100 kernel to oneiric yet ... just FTR
<ppisati> btw, i saw a patch flying around that would fix one of the memory pressure problem we have on omap4
<rsalveti> ppisati: what problem exactly?
<ppisati> ah yes, and the usb omap3 problem perhaps is a toolchain issue (but i haven't investigated yet)
<ppisati> rsalveti: i saw a patch from... hold on...
<rsalveti> if you have the link, even better
<ppisati> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-ti-omap4/+bug/690370
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 690370 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu) "Strange out of memory on pandaboard" [Undecided,New]
<ppisati> Ming Lei
<rsalveti> hm, ok, would be good to try and also publish it at l-o
<ppisati> yep
<rsalveti> as he's touching the usbnet code, not just the smsc one
<ppisati> btwm do we have an ETA for .39 omap4?
<ogra_> we had no call last week
<ppisati> yep
<ogra_> lets ask tomorrow
<ppisati> oooooook
<NCommander> can I move on?
<ppisati> yes
<ogra_> try it :)
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<janimo> no progress on my side
<janimo> BP work
<infinity> I'm no expert in build failures, but when I'm taking sanity breaks from specs, I could have a look.
<infinity> (Note: the opening statement was ironic sarcasm)
<ogra_> upstart really needs someones attention i think
<janimo> FTBFS are not good for sanity either
<ogra_> infinity, http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/
 * janimo plans to check GL/Qt type FTBFSes
<infinity> janimo: They were my life for almost a decade.  Explains a lot about me, doesn't it?
<ogra_> only 7 armel only packages in main
<ogra_> that fail
<janimo> infinity, I also like it sometimes but when the same bugs keep recurring it can get disappointing
<ogra_> telepathy-glib will get in our way at some point
<ogra_> and dbus too
<infinity> ogra_: I'm happy to look at tp-glib, I'm an upstream committer.
<janimo> isn;t that also a ld segfault one?
<janimo> I think some of these are blocked on ld being borken in some way, so many test cases fail
<infinity> ogra_: Err, unless it's a toolchain issue we're waiting on. :P
<ogra_> yes, that was the original cause for the shrink warp stuff in natty
<ogra_> but i thought the gcc change was supposed to fix it
<janimo> if it were contained to upstream packages fixes would be nice and actually fulfilling as you'd send patches upstream
 * ogra_ doesnt really get why it returned
<infinity> janimo: No workarounds for the ld segv (like, is it choking on specific output from gcc, or literally everything?)
<janimo> when is's a ld gcc regression it is painful
<janimo> infinity, did not investigage further
<infinity> Kay.
<janimo> chromium is affected too
<ogra_> the workaround was -O0
<ogra_> for telepathy-glib specifically
<janimo> ogra_, this may be something else though
<ogra_> it solved the linker issue
<janimo> more packagesa are affected an I don;t think shrinkwrap was reenabled
<infinity> Well, if it's not a 100% segv, changing optimisation will often fix your issue, yes.
<infinity> Cause it's choking on (probably) bad output from gcc.
<ogra_> yep
<ogra_> well, telepathy-glib, dbus, libnih and upstart are critical on the list
<infinity> Granted, I'd give large bags of money to fix the segfaults in binutils so it can usefully error on bad input intead of exploding.
<ogra_> so anyone who feels like it, please pick one of these four first :)
<infinity> Well, I may be panda-fied sometime today.  If so, I'll happy to locally grind and get workarounds uploaded until the toolchain's fixed.
<infinity> s/I'll happy/I'll be happy/
<ogra_> note that the desktop team will drop the telepathy fix next release again
<infinity> They don't believe in merges?
<infinity> Or just to keep us on our toes? :P
<ogra_> until we have a proper upstream fix
<infinity> I can just push the fix upstream instead.  *cough*
<infinity> Anyhow.
<ogra_> iirc we -O0'ed that package twice already
<infinity> We'll see if I find a fix first.
<ogra_> NCommander, move ?
 * ogra_ jumps up and down waving an NCommander flag
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
 * NCommander kicks the nternet
<ogra_> well, i just started a testbuild with the desktop seed
<ogra_> if that survives (which it seems to unless antimony hangs) i'll change the crontab entries
<NCommander> yay
<ogra_> so we should have desktop images from tomorrow on ... what we need to do is to go through the set of installed packages and see what we want to keep on armel
<NCommander> netboot images should exist today, though they'll probably be another week or so before they'll work on omap4
<ogra_> i.e. do we want to have evo etc
<ogra_> (or TB, since i think there was a decision to switch)
<GrueMaster> We should match the desktop image.
<ogra_> ac100 images seem to work for everybody but NCommander and GrueMaster ... i still try to find the reason for that before adding it to oneiric
<GrueMaster> Unless we continue to use arm specifics.  Which means webmail.
<ogra_> GrueMaster, so you want to test heavyweight mail clients ?
<ogra_> we can use overrides in the seed file
<ogra_> so we can make our pick if we want to go with the x86 one or want to replace packages
<GrueMaster> What I'm saying is that the current armel images use web apps for email & office.
<ogra_> yes
<infinity> And if we move from that, we should use what everyone else is using.
<ogra_> we need to make a decision if we want to keep it that way or not
<infinity> For our own sanity. :P
<ogra_> but that should be decided with david available :)
<GrueMaster> So c/o.
<ogra_> for now i'll build what we get
<ogra_> without touching the seeds
 * ogra_ has nothing else
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Trying to get filesystem benchmarks running.  So far phoronix-test-suite has been running filesystem tests on one panda w/ 16G class 10 since Tuesday.
<GrueMaster> Very slow.
<ogra_> what fs are you testing there atm ?
<GrueMaster> Baseline.
<ogra_> baseline ?
<GrueMaster> I am running the natty image to establish a baseline.
<ogra_> ah
<ogra_> so ext2 updated ...
<GrueMaster> Ext3,
<ogra_> its ext2 updated with tune2fs
<GrueMaster> Next will be backup/reformat/restore.
<GrueMaster> Well, the only difference between ext2 & ext3 is the added journal.
<ogra_> nope
<ppisati> actually it's not a surprise, arnd bergmann ha d a couple of talks @ UDS about what linux do right WRT to flash: almost nothing
<ogra_> there is versioning etc in the signature it doesnt get recognized the same
<ppisati> it's more than jyst the filesystem
<ogra_> yes
<janimo> we should switch to ext4  soon
<ogra_> we had his talks at the last rally too :)
<ppisati> http://lwn.net/Articles/428584/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://lwn.net/Articles/428584/
<GrueMaster> Fedora announced that hey are switching to btrfs.
<ogra_> he spent a lot of time in the arm room :)
<ppisati> ah ok, then nevermind
<ogra_> GrueMaster, yeah, lol
<GrueMaster> Having issues with today's netbook image.  oem-config seems to crash before removing packages.
<GrueMaster> On second attempt now.  Still fails.
<ogra_> bugs :)
<GrueMaster> Testing will be severely limited next week while I am in London.
<ogra_> what do you mean by "todays" btw
<GrueMaster> 20110609.
<ogra_> i think the last two builds failed
<ogra_> hmm
<ogra_> oh, that was yesterday
<ogra_> nevermind
<GrueMaster> AC100 is currently hosed.  No proper backup to revert to.
<GrueMaster> Have been unsuccessful in recovery efforts.
<ogra_> hmpf
<ogra_> what model was that ?
<GrueMaster> And without published images from the manufacturer, it will be hard to fix.
<GrueMaster> 10Z
<ogra_> k
<GrueMaster> If there are still units in London, I will try to recover next week while I am there.
<NCommander> I thought there was a master recovery from tobisha
<ogra_> that sounds like a plan
<ogra_> NCommander, there isnt
<ogra_> there is exactly *nothing* from toshiba for the ac100
<GrueMaster> There is, but our image appears to have blasted it.
<GrueMaster> It is on a separate partition.
<ogra_> the image doesnt touch recovery
<GrueMaster> Hold home while powering up.
<ogra_> you blasted it with your android upgrade
<GrueMaster> Well, then that is on Toshiba.
<ogra_> the 2.2 android doesnt use the backup partition at all anymore
<ogra_> anyway, lets talk after the meeting
<GrueMaster> I have nothing else.
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
 * ogra_ has nothing
<NCommander> ok, then closing the meeting in 3
<NCommander> 2
<NCommander> 1
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:50.
<pedro_> hello
<njin> hello pedro_
<njin> hello everybody
<RedSingularity> :)
<pedro_> hola njin :-)
<pedro_> ok time for the meeting
<pedro_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is pedro_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * charlie-tca waves, late again
<pedro_> As always the agenda is at : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Meeting
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Updates of action items from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Updates of action items from previous meeting
<pedro_> hggdh, you around? :-)
<pedro_> first item there is yours
<hggdh> yes
<hggdh> darn, still pending, will do now
<hggdh> and announce the others
<pedro_> ok so i'll leave it for the next meeting
<hggdh> please
<pedro_> other action items:
<pedro_> bdmurray to draft a spec regarding criteria for (team) membership in ubuntu bug control: DONE
<pedro_> bdmurray to email bug control about spec regarding bug control membership: DONE
<pedro_> bdmurray to subscribe ScottK to said specification: DONE
<hggdh> eeek
<hggdh> also pending
<pedro_> so check your email because bdmurray sent a few emails regarding that
<pedro_> he's not here today though, if you have comments please reply to those emails or ping him trough IRC
 * hggdh is already at the end of the list, so the above is preempting pedro_ 's question
<pedro_> hggdh, your last item you mean?
<hggdh> yes
<pedro_> hggdh to review all bug workflows that result with an "Invalid" status and see if using "Incomplete" makes more sense and email bugsquad regarding results  <- that one
<hggdh> yes
<pedro_> ok will leave it as open too
<pedro_> any other pending item from last meeting?
<pedro_> seems not ok lets go for the next on the agenda
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Mentorship program discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mentorship program discussion
<pedro_> the item there : Make sure folks are aware that vish isn't the only Admin.
<vish> o/
<pedro_> vish, please go ahead
<vish> hey.. so regarding the mentoring team, not many seem aware that there are other admins in for that apart from me :)
<vish> like every mentor there is an admin..
<vish> and I'm not sure how i became the main admin either :p
<vish> Sense started that team and when he left he just made me admin
 * charlie-tca thinks vish is very good as the main admin
<vish> [he dint ask me either.. ;) ]
<pedro_> charlie-tca, oh yes he's doing an excellent work
<pedro_> vish, do you want to send a reminder with that to the list?
<pedro_> so the others mentors/admins can see it
<hggdh> and list *all* other admins
<vish> yea, i dont mind helping it.. but somehow people seem to think I'm the driving force, it just happens that I'm a good work horse :p
<pedro_> and also the new folks who want to join our mentorship program
<pedro_> hggdh, that's actually a good idea :-P
<charlie-tca> I didn't even realize all mentors in the group were also admin
<vish> sure, i can take that as an action item.. :)
<vish> pedro_: ^
<vish> pedro_: ^ for the action item
<pedro_> [ACTION] vish to send an email to the lists re mentoring team admins
<MootBot> ACTION received:  vish to send an email to the lists re mentoring team admins
<pedro_> done
<pedro_> vish, anything else on that topic?
<vish> thx :)
<pedro_> any question from anybody?
<vish> nope..  :)
<vish> pedro_: i answered for everyone; noone is allowed to ask questions ;p
<pedro_> ok, thanks vish :-)
<pedro_> heh
<pedro_> [TOPIC] New bug control members
<MootBot> New Topic:  New bug control members
 * charlie-tca thinks that's why vish is THE admin, too
<pedro_> I see that Bjoern Michaelsen is a new member, welcome aboard!
<pedro_> and also the  canonical-hw-cert
<charlie-tca> Yay!
<pedro_> which plenty of members, that are rocking in the Bug Days
<pedro_> s/which/with
<pedro_> brendand and roadmr are doing an *excellent* work
<pedro_> RedSingularity is also a new member ? :-)
<pedro_> if we didn't said welcome last time, welcome abord RedSingularity!
<RedSingularity> For a few weeks now
<brendand> pedro_ - thanks
<RedSingularity> Thanks!  Great to be a part of it!!
<pedro_> hggdh, charlie-tca, vish do you guys remember any other new member?
<hggdh> for -control?
<pedro_> Yes Sir
<charlie-tca> can't remember the names, but there was another one
<charlie-tca> crap
<vish> nope, those are the two..
<charlie-tca> or I imagined it
<hggdh> Bjorn
<pedro_> he was mentioned already
<njin> I will apply soon, promise
<hggdh> yes, typed it and immediately saw his name in the backlog
<pedro_> Ok remember guys that if you're part of the Bug Control team you can also help to review the new members applications
<hggdh> Ricardo Salveti
<pedro_> so pretty please with sugar and all, if you have some time please review some and give the +1 or -1
<hggdh> and, of course, the Hardware Cert Team :-)
<pedro_> it shouldn't take more than 10 minutes
<charlie-tca> So, I didn't imagine another one :-)
<pedro_> hggdh, ah yes Ricardo :-)
 * hggdh had to look at the emails to find the correct spelling of Ricardo's name
<pedro_> ok next item
<njin> Riccardo Salvetti ?
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Open Discussions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussions
<vish> in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/Organizing#Announcement%20E-mail  can we add the mentoring team to the regular team cc list?
<pedro_> anything else to raise, announce, etc ?
<pedro_> vish, sure! i'll add it
<hggdh> hey
<vish> pedro_: thx :)
<hggdh> the mentoring team _should_ be subscribed to bugsquad, right?
<vish> not necessarily.  do we have that in the requisites?
 * vish checks
<charlie-tca> it seems like mentees should be part of bugsquad
<pedro_> vish, done, the mentoring team was added to the cc list
<vish> thx..
<pedro_> the wiki page doesn't say anything about mentees being part of the bugsquad
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Mentors
<pedro_> i don't see much diff on being part of it or not though
<pedro_> diff as in benefit
<pedro_> folks anything else you want to raise at the meeting?
<pedro_> Today we're celebrating a bug day, so if you have time : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20110609 ; help us to squash some bugs there
<charlie-tca> pedro_: I disagree on the mentee/bugsqad member
<charlie-tca> Being a mentee says "I want to be in bugsqad and eventually bug control"
<charlie-tca> Then they should be part of the mailing list that keeps them informed of important things concerning that bugsquad
<pedro_> so shall we put that as a requirement? subscribe to the bugsquad mailing list
<vish> but how do we make sure they are subscribed?
<pedro_> we ask them to send an email saying hello?
<vish> k..
<charlie-tca> Don't they have specific things we check already before letting them into the group?
<vish> charlie-tca: we check the CoC , but for this mailiman Bugsquad list  it is not easy, for the LP team it is easy to compare numbers
<vish> the group is smaller, but bugsquad list is huge and has others as well..
<pedro_> right, only the admins can check the members of a list
<charlie-tca> Oh, then make it a suggestion, maybe?>
<vish> pedro_: actually others can check too, but it is not easy to keep track.
<pedro_> charlie-tca, and put a 'hey if you want to keep informed of important things concerning to the bugsquad make sure to join our mailing list'
<vish> the list will show the email ids, we wont know if who is who
<vish> s/if//
<pedro_> then we as mentors can check again if they came up with a question in the mentoring team
<pedro_> that as a reminder to join the list
<pedro_> so what do you guys think, shall we go for the suggestion and then the double check when they start working in the mentoring team?
<vish> pedro_: we would then be asking them to join two mailing lists, not sure it is the ideal way to make people know info.. we can suggest but we can not be sure they are subscribed..
<pedro_> right
<hggdh> don't we require the mentees to join bugsquad?
<hggdh> (and the ML)
<pedro_> nope
<vish> hggdh: nope not right now, but iirc we had that removed , i think bdmurray might know about that, if it was removed
<hggdh> OK. I think we should ;-)
<pedro_> ok shall we discuss this at the bugsquad ML ?
<vish> sounds good..
<pedro_> ok lets do that
<pedro_> alright folks anything else to discuss?
<pedro_> otherwise we'll go for the last item on the agenda
<pedro_> [TOPIC] Chair for next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Chair for next meeting
<pedro_> any volunteer?
 * pedro_ looks at the channel
<pedro_> oh well i'm sure bdmurray we'll be glad to chair it :-P
<pedro_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:42.
<pedro_> thanks for attending!
<njin> thanks pedro_
<vish> thx pedro_
<RedSingularity> pedro_: yeah thanks :)
<pedro_> you're welcome folks :-)
<pedro_> now lets go back to the bug day!!
<charlie-tca> Thanks for chairing, ped
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-10
<pitti> skaet: hi
<pitti> skaet: would you mind if I go after QA today?
<skaet> pitti,  sure.
<pitti> skaet: silly me, I forgot to take my AC adapter with me, and I'm low on battery
<skaet> on that note then...
<Daviey> o/
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet> [Topic] Oneiric Release Meeting overview - skaet_
<skaet> .
<skaet> Agenda is at:
<skaet> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-06-09
<skaet> The new agenda order we'll be trying out this week is in the meeting invite and in the team agenda.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric Release Meeting overview - skaet_
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-06-09
<skaet> .
<skaet> Thank you to all who helped get Alpha 1 tested and published!
<skaet> Release notes are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/TechnicalOverview/Alpha1
<skaet> Testing report can be found at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/OneiricAlpha1TestReport
<skaet> .
<skaet> Bugs targetted for this release can be found:
<skaet> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs
<skaet> Bugs milestoned for oneiric alpha 2 are at:
<skaet> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/oneiric-alpha-2
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/oneiric-alpha-2
<skaet> .
<skaet> Events Approaching:
<skaet> - Debian Import Freeze: June 30, 2011
<skaet> - Oneiric Alpha 2: July 7, 2011
<skaet> .
<skaet> New site will be rolling out next week via email to ubuntu-devel to help with tracking topic areas in addition to teams (a bit more documentation is still needed)
<skaet> Some of you may have seen the prototype over the last couple of weeks in prototype mode, and thank you for your help setting up topics and debugging.
<skaet> [LINK]http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/
<skaet> There's more info on it in the agenda, but I just wanted to say a big thank you to cjohnston!!
<skaet> He's put in alot of hard work on putting the site together and getting the themes all in place, and the mechanisms debugged to make it possible.
<MootBot> LINK received: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/
<skaet> .
<skaet> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<skaet> questions?
<skaet> ..
<charlie-tca> o/
<skaet> go charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Is the status wiki going to stay in java script? To see the charts, javascript must be enabled at this time.
<charlie-tca> ..
<skaet> charlie-tca, good question,  probably until we get it all debugged, then looking at moving may be an option.
<pitti> also note that status.u.c. hasn't been officially annouced yet
<pitti> it will be soon, when we have full confidence in it
<skaet> yup,  you saw it here first folks.  :)
<cjohnston> :-)
<Daviey> (Some teams are already using it as their primary interface :/ )
<skaet> Daviey,  yup and we appreciate those teams helping us debug it.  :)
<charlie-tca> apparently, I don't have the right java in my browser, since I get all blank pages
<Daviey> pitti: Are permissions going to be copied over, allowing people to edit the cfg's and run the commands you commented on?
<skaet> charlie-tca, can you work with cjohnston off-line so he can see if he can reproduce what you're seeing?
<pitti> Daviey: that's still TBH
<pitti> TBD
<charlie-tca> sure
<Daviey> ok
<pitti> Daviey: we quickly talked with jpds, but we'll probably use a ~platform bzr branch which they pull in
<Daviey> Ok, groovy.
 * skaet looks around for other questions?
<skaet> ok, heading into the round table then.
<ScottK> o/
<ScottK> More of a comment.
<skaet> ok ScottK
<ScottK> I think Kubuntu will be moving to using work items like other teams do.
<ScottK> Personally, I liked the wiki, but i got outvoted.
<ScottK> You might chat with apachelogger about helping get Kubuntu stuff properly sync'ed.
<ScottK> ..
<skaet> Thanks ScottK,  will do my best to help make the transition smooth.
<skaet> and will talk to apachelogger.  :)
<ScottK> He's rushing to catch a train ATM, but later I'm sure he'll be glad to help.
<ScottK> (best time to volunteer people for stuff)
<skaet> :)  Any other teams interested in setting up topics for tracking things,  just let me, cjohnston or wendar know, and we'll try to help.
<skaet> back to the round table...
<skaet> [Topic] Toolchain update - doko
<MootBot> New Topic:  Toolchain update - doko
 * skaet looks around for doko_ 
<skaet> if folks could look at the links on the agenda,  the Failures to Build are still pretty high for main.
<skaet> [Topic] QA team update -  jibel
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update -  jibel
<cjwatson> 15:49 <doko_> cjwatson: re-uploaded, now afk
<cjwatson> I guess he's not around
<skaet> thanks cjwatson
<jibel> hi all!
<skaet> :)
<jibel> * Bootchart Metrics and desktop testing not started. It will be discussed at the automation testing sprint next week.
<jibel>  * Automatic Upgrade Testing:
<jibel> http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/automatic-upgrade-testing/current/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mvo/automatic-upgrade-testing/current/
<jibel>  * ubuntu and xubuntu failed: bug 781076
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 781076 in doc-base (Ubuntu Oneiric) "package doc-base 0.9.5ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: Byte order is not compatible at ../../lib/Storable.pm" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/781076
<jibel>  * kubuntu fails: conflict file between plasma-dataengines-workspace 4:4.6.2a-0ubuntu5.1 and kdebase-workspace-bin 4:4.6.3-1ubuntu3
<jibel> * Top 5 packages with most bugs reported during last week:
<jibel> unity-2d: mostly crashers fixed with qt4-x11 update.
<jibel> lightdm
<jibel> doc-base: see bug above
<jibel> gnome-user-share: bug 788714
<jibel> unity
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788714 in gnome-user-share (Ubuntu Oneiric) "gnome-user-share crashed with SIGABRT in g_option_context_parse() - needs porting to GTK3" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788714
<jibel> == Results of Alpha 1 ISO Testing ==
<jibel> The main issues found are:
<jibel>  * unity-2d crashes which is a problem between gcc 4.6 and qt4-x11 violating strict aliasing rules.
<jibel>  * gnome-user-share crash: need porting to gtk3: fixed
<jibel>  * nautlius background not redrawing
<jibel>  * missing windows buttons: Fixed
<jibel>  * No USB support on beagle/beagleXM
<jibel>  * Oneiric Alpha1 Server x86 and x86_64 RAID1 Test Failed
<jibel>  * Ubiquity on Kubuntu failed to run
<jibel> Very few installer and Unity bugs. But since most testers are running VMs, unity received little testing compared to unity-2d.
<seb128> ("  * nautlius background not redrawing" should be fixed as well)
<pitti> unity-2d crash should also be fixed now with latest qt?
<seb128> (we have the key correctly set to get nautilus displaying the background by default and the url has been fixed as well)
<ScottK> pitti: Yes.
<jibel> pitti, right. the qt4-x11 updated fixed most of unity-2d crashers
<jibel> seb128, right. must be fixed, but didn't verified yet
<jibel> There are still 10 bugs marked as new to triage:  http://tinyurl.com/63wkemt
<jibel> so please pick yours.
<ScottK> jibel: On Kubuntu ubiquity would run a live session fine, just not do an installation.
<cjwatson> maco posted a branch for half of the problem which is pending review.  I've been having ADSL line rate issues so haven't managed to pull down a test image yet
<jibel> this is bug 791446
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791446 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "kubuntu installer crashes daily-live 6-1-11: AttributeError: 'QCheckBox' object has no attribute 'set_sensitive'" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791446
<jibel> The laptop tracker for Oneiric is opened. Time to test alpha 1 on real iron.
<jibel> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-qa/2011-June/001615.html
<jibel> Next community testing milestones:
<jibel> Alpha 2 testing will start on July 5th
<jibel> Followed by a week of ATI/nVidia proprietary driver testing
<jibel> and 10.04.3 the week after.
<jibel> ..
<skaet> Thanks jibel!  :)
<skaet> Some very good data in there,  will digest the detail after the meeting.
<skaet> anyone else have specific questions right now?
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop team update - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team update - pitti
<pitti> GNOME 3 is mostly in oneiric now, with the exception of smaller things like the system monitor; we still lack an Ubuntu-ish theme, but that's being developed by DX; some of it is also blocked by some MIRs like accountsservice
<pitti> Default login manager now switched to lightdm
<pitti> Alpha-2 work items: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/canonical-desktop-team-oneiric-alpha-2.html â we are behind the trend line, but we expect some faster progress soon; not too much of a concern just yet
<pitti> CD space situation: We worked hard on downsizing, and cut off 30 MB, so that most of the daily images are now within limits, except i386 alternate (705 MB); we expect 4.5 MB growth from new X.org gallium drivers with new LLVM, and potential growth of ~ 6 to 10 MB for thunderbird (not firmly decided yet)
<pitti> RC bugs: we do have a few well-known problems from the GNOME 3 transition, but nothing earth shattering right now; details are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus#rcbugs
<pitti> ..
<pitti> oh, breaking news: latest lsb upload pulls in python 3 (another +6 MB)
<pitti> so it's really high time to drop python 2.6 now
<pitti> to make up for the space, and not ship 3 python versions
<ScottK> o/
<pitti> ..
<skaet> go ScottK
<ScottK> I think lsb pulling in python3 should be investigated.  That sounds wrong.
<pitti> it might have been ported?
<seb128> doko just switched it to python3
<pitti> but anyway, even if it's wrong, there'll be sooner or later a package which uses py3
<ScottK> Given the number of 2.7 related issues we're still digging through in Debian, I think dropping 2.6 is premature.
<ScottK> ..
<ScottK> Sure.
<pitti> I really really object to 3 python versions on the CD
<ScottK> I agree.
<seb128> pitti, wasn't there some discussion about keeping python3 out of the CD for this cycle?
<ScottK> The issue is which two.
<ogra_> python1 !
<ScottK> (for the moment)
<pitti> if we really need 2.6 (I don't think we do, though), can we postpone py3 for the next release?
<ogra_> surely the smallest ;)
<cjwatson> I don't think we need to panic about lsb; it doesn't merit immediate reversion or anything
<pitti> seb128:  it was proposed
<ScottK> I think we'll drop 2.6 before FF.
<ScottK> I'd be suprised if we don't.
<cjwatson> I don't mind oversizedness that's projected to go away by FF
<pitti> I thought the main issue here was to help Debian to switch to 2.7, right?
<cjwatson> as long as we know how
<pitti> I also have a few projects which could also use py3
<ScottK> pitti: Yes.
<pitti> I just didn't want to be the one to introduce the dependency first, but now that we have it, a more firm plan would be good
<pitti> i. e. if we want to do some more py3 porting in oneiric, it would certainly be better than starting with it in the lts?
<ScottK> That's the intent.
<pitti> *nod* thanks
<pitti> sounds like a plan then
<pitti> thanks for letting me go first today; I need to go offline now, running out of battery :/
<skaet> Thanks pitti! :)  any other questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Hardware Certification team update
<skaet> team will be restarting certification runs in next couple of weeks.  No data yet.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update
 * pitti waves
 * skaet waves back - thanks again.
<skaet> [Topic] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi
<skaet> :)
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> We are currently on track for blueprints, and thanks to mdeslaur apparmor no longer requires perl on the install images.
<jdstrand> Our team is mostly concentrating on updates atm, and getting to work items as we can fit them in.
<jdstrand> Looking at the (rather long) list of oneiric bugs, I don't see anything worth highlighting here.
<jdstrand> I've heard that unity-2d doesn't work too well in oneiric with any of the video drivers. unity doesn't run in kvm (our standardized virtualization technology, with a ton of scripting and tools around it).
<jdstrand> (kvm video drivers)
<jdstrand> This is a major concern for the security team as without good VM support for unity-2d, we can't test applications in a default install. In natty 'vmvga' seems to work ok. This is bug 759803 and bug 792075.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 759803 in unity-2d "Unity-2d not working on KVM with xen and cirrus video devices" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/759803
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 792075 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu) "oneiric live-cd does not work with qemu-kvm" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/792075
<skaet> dbarth, ^^
<jdstrand> I've just commented in 792075 about some findings from our team, but I wanted to highlight this
<jdstrand> (things may be more positive now)
<jdstrand> I've added these to our list of bugs we're interested in from other teams
<jdstrand> ..
<skaet> Thanks jdstrand!  :)
<jdstrand> oh, also 792075 is in a weird state wrt subscribers (there are none)
<jdstrand> (besides the reporter and out team, who I just added)
<skaet> hmm...
<seb128> jdstrand, wasn't the kvm issue the qt bug that got fixes this week?
<skaet> jibel, bdmurray,  ^^  can you look into the bug state of 792075 after the meeting with me?
<jdstrand> seb128: mdeslaur indicated upgrading seems to make things work again. he (or me) will test the daily and see if things are better there
 * dbarth is checking
<skaet> ok,  if no more questions,  we'll let the investigation happen asynch and move on.
<dbarth> skaet: a qt issue as indicated in the comments
<skaet> dbarth, thanks.
<skaet> [Topic] Kernel team update - ogasawara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - ogasawara
<ogasawara> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<ogasawara> The biggest news recently is that Linus has decided to bump the upstream kernel version to v3.0.  This means that instead of Oneiric targetting a v2.6.40 kernel, we will use v3.0.  The move from a 3 digit version (eg 2.6.y) to a 2 digit version (eg 3.x) did cause breakage for scripts and packages expecting a 3 digit version.  We fixed what was known and uploaded an Oneiric kernel based on the latest v3.0-rc2 upstream relea
<ogasawara> se.  We took extra care for how we versioned our package should we choose to move back to a 3 digit version scheme.  We've unfortunatley however just discovered that libc6 is having issues installing with the newer 2 digit version.  We're actively investigating.  Subsequently we're holding off on uploading linux-meta-3.0 until the libc6 install issue is resolved.
<ogasawara> Of the bugs called out in the agenda, status is as follows:
<NCommander> o/
<ogasawara> 754744 - Assigned to kernel dev and under investigation.  Also forwarded to upstream but no response yet.
<ogasawara> 542660 - Assigned to kernel dev.  Recent comments indicate possible workaround.  Confirmation is still needed against Oneiric.
<ogasawara> 760131 - A patch has landed in 2.6.39.1 upstream stable which has been applied to and tested with a 2.6.38 Natty test kernel.  It has been confirmed that power consumption is indeed lower than what was released in 2.6.38.  It is not clear however if this is an actual fix for the noted regression or just an overall power management improvement which has landed.  Regardless we'll work to get this patch pushed through as an S
<ogasawara> RU.  Unfortunately it appears the bug is starting to get dog piled with drive by commenters. :(
<ogasawara> Questions?
<ogasawara> ..
<cjwatson> eglibc should be easy to sort out ...
<skaet> Thanks ogasawara!  :)
<cjwatson> is there a bug number for that?
<skaet> go NCommander
<ogasawara> cjohnston: no bug number, apw was digging into it
<NCommander> Since several ARM kernels are still 2.6.3x for now and the probably for quite awhile, will there be ongoing care to make sure the scripts can handle 2.6 or 3.0?
<ogasawara> bah, cjwatson ^^
<ogra_> NCommander, several ?
<ogra_> only omap4
<ogasawara> NCommander: we'll make a note to check
<cjwatson> NCommander: everything I've seen so far has been fixed to handle both
<NCommander> ogra_: Linaro's kernel package is still 2.6 last I checked.
<NCommander> cjwatson: just making sure. didn't want to have an oh **** issue down the line
<NCommander> ..
<ogra_> NCommander, linaros kernel packages dont get updates per policy
<cjwatson> the installer will need some changes for 3.0 too; I'll be working on those now I have test packages
<ogra_> (no security, no SRUs)
<apw> cjwatson, if i am honest i wouldn't start too soon on changes for the new kernel
<ScottK> ogra_: Don't get updated by the security/kernel teams, but someone could prepare updates if they were motivated.
<ogra_> ScottK, suuure :)
<apw> cjwatson, it is not at all clear linus won't throw in the towel and call it 3.0.0 cause of other userspace interactions
<apw> cjwatson, i am trying to get a definative answer before doing much more
<cjwatson> heh, eglibc build kind of breaks too
<apw> cjwatson, yeah i notived, and actually so does the install of it ... my test box is a heap as a result
<apw> cjwatson, so far i have held off on the meta package as a result
<cjwatson> eglibc build should only break if your build system is actually running 3.0 though, which the buildds won't for a while
 * skaet thinks the questions have stopped,   so moving on.  :)
<skaet> [Topic] Foundations team update - cjwatson
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> Feature progress this week:
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-application-sandboxing underway: Arkose rewritten in Python and converted to LXC
<cjwatson>  * multiarch bootstrapped in Debian to the point where libraries can be converted to it, which should start reducing our patch stack soon (full dpkg support is still pending review though)
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-live-build down to the last handful of small work items
<cjwatson>  * desktop-o-gtk3-gnome3: ubiquity mostly converted to PyGI, though blocked on porting a custom widget (timezone map)
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-ubiquity: design work on installation failure metrics; seems rather closer to a consensus now
<cjwatson>  * packageselection-foundations-n-event-based-initramfs: working on upstartified way to switch root filesystem; most review comments addressed
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-better-apport-package-bugs: prevented reporting of bugs due to missing packages in apt cache; wrote some apport bug patterns for foundations-bugs
<cjwatson>  * upstart: lots of upstream merging, with lp:upstart getting back into a properly synchronised state again; discussing oneiric plans on mailing lists
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-apt-mirror-method: initial progress on required apt changes
<cjwatson>  * software-center: merged basic QML UI
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-python-versions: 3.1 reverse-dependencies eradicated; working on Python 3 disk usage data for CDs
<cjwatson>  * python: released 2.6.7
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> (I didn't comment on bugs, there aren't many on our agenda at the moment and we're well off alpha 2, so happy to let those run for a while)
<cjwatson> (so ask if there are any you particularly care about)
<skaet> thanks cjwatson.  :)
<skaet> will follow up on the bugs then offline.
<skaet> looks like a pretty productive week.  :)
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Server team update - Daviey
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - Daviey
<Daviey> Hello!
<skaet> :)
<Daviey> Another short one this week.
<Daviey> Alpha 1 incoming bug count is low (as expected due to low exposure).  ISO testing didn't raise anything unexpected.
<Daviey> Current burn down charts are looking on target (both full cycle and A2).  Not all deliverables that will be completed for A2 are yet marked such).
<Daviey> No current wider concerns.
<Daviey> I do need to talk to foundations (probably cjwatson) early next week about some of our ISO changes planned.
<Daviey> We have a mountain of MIR's we need to undertake this subcycle.  So i suspect ~ubuntu-server need to buy ~ubuntu-mir plenty of beer.
<Daviey> We are currently working with Canonical SI team for many of the Orchestra deliverables.
<Daviey> I do have concerns that the decision to use ~ubuntu-server is attaching some WI's to our team view that should not belong there, for example: other-n-security-kernel
<Daviey> ...
<skaet> Thanks Daviey!  :)
<Daviey> no, thank you :)
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] ARM team update - ogra_
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - ogra_
<ogra_> yay, thats me :)
<skaet> :)
<ogra_> Full status is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<ogra_> -
<ogra_> Summary:
<ogra_>  * More work on preparing the tegra ac100 port was done (thanks to GrueMaster for hours of debugging).
<ogra_>  * Netinstall images for omap3 and 4 were created (as part of the server implementation)
<ogra_>  * The netbook images were dropped in favour of preinstalled desktop images.
<ogra_>  * We welcome infinity as a new team member !
<ogra_>  * The first patches for performance optimization of our SD card images have been produced and will land in the image build system soon.
<ogra_> -
<ogra_> Images:
<ogra_>  * Desktop images surprisingly seem to build out of the box
<ogra_>  * Headless/serial images build fine.
<ogra_> -
<ogra_> Spec work:
<ogra_>  * Entire http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<ogra_>  * A2 http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-alpha-2.html
<ogra_>  (how do we get our team onto status.ubuntu.com ?)
<ogra_> -
<ogra_> Serious Bugs:
<ogra_>  * bug 794938 [oneiric] lightdm crashes on armel
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 794938 in lightdm (Ubuntu Oneiric) "lightdm dies with "Failed to fork: Cannot allocate memory" on login" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/794938
<ogra_>  * bug 791552 [oneiric] USB support broken on omap3
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 791552 in linux (Ubuntu) "No USB support on beagle/beagleXM" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/791552
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> Thanks ogra_ !  :)   (and welcome infinity )
<skaet> can someone get 791552 prioritized so it shows up as a serious bug,  looks like its undefined right now...
<ogra_> will do
<ScottK> o/
<skaet> thanks ogra_ ! :)
<skaet> ScottK go
<ScottK> Any word on if we'll have an armhf port this cycle?
<ScottK> ..
<ogra_> linaro stuff ...
<ogra_> not sure where we stand yet
<ScottK> OK.
<ogra_> but i can find out and report next week :)
<skaet> ogra_, can you work fabo to figure it out?
<Daviey>  
<skaet> lol
<ogra_> snap :)
<skaet> thanks ogra_ :)
<skaet> Daviey, you have a comment/questions?
<skaet> hmm... guess not.  ok,  moving on.
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<dbarth> hiya
<skaet> :)
<dbarth> i have prepared notes for the meeting at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/OneiricReleaseStatus
<dbarth> essentially, we have a couple of sru fixes ready and delivered between this week and next monday
<dbarth> incl. the display garbled problem
<dbarth> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/OneiricReleaseStatus#preview
<dbarth> for oneiric, we're reaching the end of the 1st iteration of development
<dbarth> with unity updates (see notes, compiz mostly for the moment, but there should be a new shared lib by next week)
<dbarth> a new appindicator module for qt, along with unity-2d updates (gap reduction with the GL version)
<dbarth> a few indicators and theme related progresses; the rest is mostly infrastructure that will bear fruit next iteration
<dbarth> and a batch of touch updates
<ScottK> o/
<dbarth> that will let eog/evince and qt apps work with the touch stack that went into natty
<dbarth> ...
<skaet> Thanks dbarth! :)   Will be plotting your revised landings dates against the interlock schedule and let you know offline if I see issues.
<skaet> any questions for dbarth ?
<dbarth> skaet: right, forgot that, but that was in the notes
<dbarth> yup? ScottK?
<ScottK> It's not clear how well synchronized the appindicator module for Qt is with upstream plans.  We need to make sure we allow time in the schedule to get that part sorted correctly.
<ScottK> ..
<dbarth> yeah, they were interested, but not ready to take that in their own roadmap
<ScottK> So much like the appmenu work we need to build a bridge that will get us there.
<dbarth> the module agateau prepared is a plugin that is independant of the qt code base; just plugs into known interfaces
<dbarth> agreed
<ScottK> There's a core Qt patch to make the plugin work.
<ScottK> That's the part I'm most worried about.
<dbarth> ah, that part was not sold to me yet ;)
<dbarth> i'll double check with you and agateau
<ScottK> Thanks.
<skaet> any other questions?
<ScottK> We discussed it yesterday or the day before.
<dbarth> ok
<skaet> [Topic] Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
<ScottK>  * Alpha 1 live CD runs a session, but won't install (already discussed)
<ScottK>  * ISO size issues resolved after Alpha 1
<ScottK>  * Component mismatches all worked out too
<ScottK>  * Coordinating Qt updates with Desktop team
<ScottK>    - Need to make sure things (like touch patches) land with enough time for upstream review
<ScottK>  * KDE merges from Debian are ~done, starting to work on KDE 4.7.
<ScottK>  * KDE upstream issues with tarball splits (following move from svn to git) seem largely resolved for this cycle
<ScottK> ..
<seb128> ScottK, didrocks said he would try to get the qt appindicator thing sorted next week during the qt contributor summit
<ScottK> seb128: Yes.  That's what we discussed.
<ScottK> (I recall now that you remind me)
<ScottK> ..
<skaet> Thanks ScottK!  :)
<skaet> we've talked about one of the bugs on the agenda,  but is there any update on bug:794320?
<ScottK> Which one is that?
<skaet> .desktop files not being translated
<ScottK> Being worked.
<ScottK> I think it's close.  Should be no problem for Alpha 2.
<skaet> coolio.  thanks.
<skaet> any other questions?
<debfx> most .desktop files are translated, it only affects for example notifications
<skaet> ok,  thanks.  :)
<skaet> [Topic] Linaro update - fado
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - fado
<ScottK> skaet: fabo?
<skaet> sigh,  ... sorry,  fabo
<skaet> yup
<skaet> is fabo around?   its getting late for him...
<fabo> yes, I'm around
<skaet> :)
<skaet> any updates from Linaro?  (toolchains,  kernel versions,  etc.  ;) )
<fabo> we're working on our monthly release
<fabo> a toolchain update is planned with a release ever 3rd thursday of the month
<fabo> linaro-2.6.39 kernel repository opened
<fabo> john rigby is working on the packaging
<fabo> our platform team will release the last thursday of each month, including all goodies from our WGs (toolchain kernel)
<fabo> they'll release on latest stable Ubuntu (natty)
<fabo> in parallel, we planned to provide developers build for oneiric
<fabo> ..
<skaet> Thanks fabo! :)
<fabo> questions? :)
<skaet> When do you plan on forking the stable toolchain branch?
<james_w> it's not confirmed to be happening yet, but I would imagine soon if it does happen
<fabo> it's under discussion. Michael Hope has send a mail about it. The plan will be clear on next week.
<skaet> thanks james_w, fabo - will follow up on the thread then.
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> do we have anyone here from Edubuntu, Xubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Mythbuntu, that has questions?
<skaet> or status to share?
<skaet> [Topic] MOTU team update - tumbleweed
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update - tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> hi
<skaet> :)
<tumbleweed> not too much to report:
<tumbleweed> GHC transition almost done, many of the others still have some way to go.
<tumbleweed> fair number of merges outstanding (and thus missing RC fixes), more than this point last cycle according to the graphs
<tumbleweed> *lots* of FTBFS, far more than I'd like.
 * skaet nods
<tumbleweed> nigelb has someone preparing a list of toolchain related ones to request help for
<tumbleweed> the bugs mentioned on the agenda are mostly milestoned FTBFSs, won't repeat them here
<tumbleweed> ..
<skaet> Thanks tumbleweed!  :)
<skaet> There's a fair number of FTBFS marked as New against A2 in the A2 milestone bug list.   Should they be considered confirmed at this point?
 * tumbleweed hadn't seen those until I looked at the agenda
<tumbleweed> I assume doko is doing some (semi-?)automated filing
<skaet> yes,  but doesn't seem to be automated fixing going on ;)
<skaet> they've been lingering
<tumbleweed> yeah
<skaet> can we get together offline and see if we can figure out a way to track them better, and see if we can get help lined up.
<skaet> ??
<tumbleweed> I'm not too concerned about tiher status, new vs confirmed. Looking at the bug log is half the way to fixing most of them
<tumbleweed> sure
<tumbleweed> err build log
<skaet> thanks.
<skaet> :)
<skaet> any other questions for tumbleweed?
<skaet> [Topic]  any other questions,  comments?
<MootBot> New Topic:   any other questions,  comments?
 * skaet notes that Ubuntu One is at a sprint this week,  and their status will be updated early next week.
<skaet> ok,  looks like that's it then for this week.
<Daviey> \o/
<skaet> Thank you all.
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:20.
<charlie-tca> Thanks, skaet
<ScottK> tumbleweed: I think FTBFS bugs are generally just noise and we should avoid them unless they add particular value (e.g. some hint about how to fix it).
<skaet> thank you  jibel, jdstrand, ogasawara, cjwatson, Daviey, ogra_,  dbarth, charlie_tca,  ScottK,  fabo, seb128, pitti, tumbleweed
<ogra_> thanks skaet
<seb128> thanks skaet
<jibel> Thanks skaet
<jdstrand> thanks skaet
<fabo> thanks skaet
<tumbleweed> ScottK: I tend to agree. I test-build the package before trying to fix it
<chattr> clipit
<chattr> sorry, wrong channel
<apachelogger> skaet, ScottK: the only missing thing for topics should be a spec for left-overs, syncing wiki progress to specs and setting kubuntu-members as assignee for unassigned items
<skaet> apachelogger, :)  excellent.
<cjohnston> apachelogger: if you need help with any of that, let me know
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-11
<elky> o/
<mobyli> o/
<jussi> o/
<jussi> tsimpson: about?
<mobyli> Warning : I may be slow and terse
<Tm_T> chomp
<elky> shall i give ts2 / tsimpson a few mins or just start?
<jussi> give him till 5 pawsst or so
<jussi> past even
<IdleOne> morning!
<jussi> morns IdleOne
<elky> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:05. The chair is elky.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<elky> [topic] Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<jussi> so we just have bug 788503
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788503
<jussi> I think this is pretty well in progress.
<elky> anything that needs to be said here?
<jussi> not really imho
<jussi> Move on.  :)
<IdleOne> maybe change the bug to in progress?
<elky> [topic] Review last meetings action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review last meetings action items
<jussi> IdleOne: done
<IdleOne> jussi :)
<mobyli> Mine is done
 * elky tries to find the list of items
<elky> the wiki is being its normal efficient self again, of course.
<jussi> tsimpson's is done
<jussi> elky: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRCCouncil/TeamReports
<jussi> (if you didnt get there already)
<elky> yeah, it wasn't loading
<jussi> ahh
<jussi> anyway, thats all of them
<jussi> both done
<elky> [topic] Review #ubuntu-ops-team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review #ubuntu-ops-team
<elky> plz to explain?
<jussi> We agreed at previous meetings that we would review if it was being abused or used well, ie. should it continue to exist
<elky> I think it's being used well. It's getting elephants out of rooms, etc.
<mobyli> I think we can drop this item from future agenda
<Tm_T> I have nothing to complain about it, serves us well
<IdleOne> agreed
<jussi> I think reviews are good, but maybe once every few months.
<elky> jussi, quarterly?
<jussi> elky: yeah, sounds good
<elky> mobyli?
<mobyli> Works for me
<elky> [agreed] move review of #ubuntu-ops-team to quarterly
<MootBot> AGREED received:  move review of #ubuntu-ops-team to quarterly
<jussi> I can take an action to add it to the calendar :)
<elky> [topic] reports
<MootBot> New Topic:  reports
<jussi> reports?
<elky> jussi, also if you want to play with the agenda while i'm chairing
<elky> Keep IRCCouncil/TeamReports updated.
<mobyli> What is this?
<elky> it's listed as an agenda item
<jussi> elky: thats just something we have to do, not discuss
<mobyli> Ah
<elky> i'm pasting from the agenda list
<jussi> elky: skip to the no fixed parts now
<elky> if it's in the agenda list, i'll make a topic of it
<elky> :P
<jussi> the rest are actions.
<elky> jussi, is nhandler awake?
<Tm_T> won't hurt mentioning if it's done or under works
<mobyli> True
<elky> Tm_T, we do reports. it's a continual work in progress. anything specific? :P
<mobyli> nhandler is busy today
<Tm_T> nah, just commenting
<elky> mobyli, then i'll skip his agenda item
<jussi> genii doesnt seem to be around either.
<jussi> nhandler: is likely sleeping.
<elky> woo, short meetings ftw
<jussi> elky: I fixored the agenda page
<mobyli> Hehe
<elky> [topic] general business
<MootBot> New Topic:  general business
<elky> jussi, thanks
<elky> anything else?
<IdleOne> have any of the "older" core ops clicked the join team link for -ops?
<IdleOne> just curious
<jussi> IdleOne: not as far as I have seen, but you can look yourself
<IdleOne> true
<elky> no takers?
<jussi> elky: I think we are grand. Lucky you. :)
<elky> awesome
<elky> [endmeeting]
<elky> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:24.
<elky> failbot
<elky> surely enough people do that it should be a feature :P
<mobyli> Sorry. Are we done?
<elky> jussi, want to text him to stop panicking?
<jussi> elky: he will be fine ;)
<IdleOne> haha
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-06-12
<j1mc> hey there :)
<Rocket2DMn> hey guys
<j1mc> hi connor
<vtanthropologist> hi all
<j1mc> hi vtanthropologist
<j1mc> thanks for joining
<j1mc> shall we get started? i'm not sure if as many people are going to join this time.
<vtanthropologist> sure
<j1mc> i'm ok with waiting a few more minutes, too.
<Rocket2DMn> are we expecting anybody else?
<j1mc> phil bull joined #ubuntu-docs not too long ago... he isn't normally on irc, so ...
<j1mc> i'm hopeful that he'll join
<vtanthropologist> so who are all those people in the sidebar?  do they just stay logged on to this channel permanently?
<j1mc> mostly, yes
<j1mc> ok, i guess we'll get started.
<j1mc> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:03. The chair is j1mc.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<j1mc> we have an agenda up here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<j1mc> with oneiric planning... i think maybe we should take that to the list.
<j1mc> i think we'll get better discussion from everyone that way.
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Oneiric planning
<MootBot> New Topic:  Oneiric planning
<j1mc> what do you both think?
<vtanthropologist> I haven't been involved enough to know what's needed
<vtanthropologist> except ... a lot more
<j1mc> heya philbull
<vtanthropologist> hi philbull
<philbull> hey, sorry, got the wrong channel
<j1mc> vtanthropologist: fair enough
<philbull> hi guys
<Rocket2DMn> hey philbull
<j1mc> let me see if i can find the link to the wiki page for oneiric planning
<vtanthropologist> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, are there any particular items for oneiric planning we want to discuss right now?
<vtanthropologist> is that it?
<j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks/Oneiric
<jbicha> hi
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: well, we have the wiki topic listed for later
<j1mc> and we also are going to touch on gnome doc plans
<j1mc> jbicha: howdy
<j1mc> i think we can move on for now. we'll touch on the important parts as we progress through other topics.
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Gnome app doc plans
<MootBot> New Topic:  Gnome app doc plans
<j1mc> there's actually some news to report on this
<j1mc> philbull: would you want to talk about what happened in the past week on this?
<philbull> Sure
<philbull> From the GNOME perspective?
<j1mc> that's fine... just the progress that was made
<j1mc> the work that was done to generate topics for apps
<philbull> Well, the GNOME docs team held a hackfest at the OpenHelp conference in Cincinnati this past week
<philbull> The idea is to get as many GNOME applications' help converted over to Mallard/topic-based help as possible for GNOME 3.2
<philbull> To that end, we stubbed-out a load of topics for a number of GNOME applications
<philbull> (I'll be releasing a set of stubs some time this week, hopefully)
<philbull> People can then take those stub topics, one at a time if they like, and write the content
<philbull> Given enough people working on them, we can have a lot of the help converted over in very little time
<philbull> (We managed to do this during the Toronto docs hackfest in March, but for the GNOME desktop help)
<philbull> I think that's about it - we need to convert lots of apps over, and we will have a basic structure prepared very soon
<philbull> Ubuntu should help out with this
<j1mc> Cool.  Yes, I think we'll get some help from Ubuntu...
<Rocket2DMn> Will we be using Gnome version 3.2 in Oneiric?
<j1mc> ... but we can also get help from Fedora and OpenSUSE, too.
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: good question. i would think so... the apps that we have oneiric right now are gtk3 apps.
<j1mc> we can follow-up, though.
<j1mc> [ACTION] Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Check to see if we'll have gnome 3.2 apps or gnome 3.0 apps in oneiric.
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i'm looking at the alpha1 tech overview wiki page, i see that we have switched to gnome 3 which is good news
<Rocket2DMn> not sure what trouble they will have transitioning Unity, but that's not really our problem except for any changes the user sees
<j1mc> just one last point on this... i think it will make it easier for new contributors to help with writing docs. the topics will be stubbed-out, so all of the boilerplate will be taken care of.
<j1mc> that should make things easier for anyone who wants to help.
<j1mc> but... more info on that later, i guess.
<j1mc> anything else on this for now?
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Team strategy document
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team strategy document
<j1mc> I don't really have an update on this. :) my last commit was a week or so ago
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Ubuntu help website
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu help website
<j1mc> this is kinda interesting.
<vtanthropologist> I haven't spent much time looking at the content to think about how it could be improved, but I've had to spend a bit of time on converting xml for a browser for another project
<j1mc> i had a talk with jono late last week, and there seems to be more of a drive to improve help.ubuntu.com, but i'm not sure if they are eager to provide additional help, or what.
<vtanthropologist> I feel more comfortable about the idea of helping build the site now - if you still need it
<j1mc> at the close of our talk, he said he was going to send a note to the docs team ML, but maybe he hasn't had a chance to yet.
<j1mc> vtanthropologist: cool
<j1mc> for me, the big question is, are we at a point where we can mostly assume that people have access to the web?
<j1mc> what do you think?
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, in most cases people do, but are we planning on adding documentation there that we won't ship as a package?
<vtanthropologist> Having lived in a developing country and seen anyone with access to a pc having access to the web, I'd say yes
<philbull> j1mc: In most cases, apart from the very important case where someone can't get their wireless drivers working
<j1mc> jbicha: what do you think?
<philbull> I guess people can ask to use a friend's internet connection
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, what are we getting at?
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: yeah, i think that would be a possibility.
<vtanthropologist> I agree with philbull that we need to cater for wireless outages, but in that case most people still have windows as a fallback
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: i was thinking of something like http://support.mozilla.com
<j1mc> and having a subset of those docs on-disk
<philbull> Another issue is translation
<j1mc> there is also http://support.mozilla.com/es/home
<j1mc> i don't know about this, either ... i'm not sure if this is the right way to go, and i don't want people to be driven into anything.
<Rocket2DMn> It would be nice to have a portal like that to different documentation sources
<Rocket2DMn> i'm not sure we can get away from shipping docs at this time, we don't even have a framework for posting translated docs online yet
 * j1mc nods
<Rocket2DMn> it was brought up in earlier discussions about doing that though, which i think would be great
<Rocket2DMn> if that proves to be effective and maintainable, we might be able to look at moving away from shipping docs in 12.04
<j1mc> i'm not sure what else to say on it for now... i think that having a stronger, more interactive web presence for help would be good, and it sounds like people are agreeable to it
<j1mc> it's just a matter of criteria and resources
<j1mc> other thoughts on this for now?
<philbull> The Mozilla offering looks good (SuMo)
<philbull> and it would be nice to have the community wiki docs and official docs available from the same interface
<j1mc> one thing about SuMo is that they release weekly
<j1mc> so it's a bit of a moving target. although it's open source, i don't know of any other groups that are using it.
<j1mc> i wish we could have a hackfest to work together on this.
<j1mc> philbull: i'll put our notes together and get them out on the mailing list.
<philbull> great, thanks j1mc
<j1mc> ok... next topic
<j1mc> [TOPIC] server docs
<MootBot> New Topic:  server docs
<j1mc> the server team had a meeting where they asked about the update to the server docs
<j1mc> adam sommer and the server group are interested in the format similar to docs.openstack.org
<j1mc> and i'm going to get a test build together this week.
<j1mc> aside from getting confirmation from the server group, nothing too knew to report on that for now, though.
<j1mc> s/knew/new
<j1mc> [TOPIC] docs team blog
<MootBot> New Topic:  docs team blog
<vtanthropologist> are you talking about having two different sites?  a SuMo-like help site and a openstack-like docs site?  isn't that overkill?
<vtanthropologist> sorry. I missed the topic change
<j1mc> vtanthropologist: good point. as a short-term thing, i think having the server docs in a nicer format would be good.
<j1mc> if we have the build tools available, and we don't have to change the server docs too much, i think it's ok to go ahead with at least a draft attempt at the new layout.
<vtanthropologist> so SuMo is a long-term vision?  but you're talking about 12.04
<j1mc> i think so
<j1mc> right now, we don't have much in the line of support for web resources, so ... that will take more time to sort out, i think.
<vtanthropologist> it seems like too many conflicting focuses to me
<j1mc> it's a lot of work, yes
<j1mc> what do others think?
<charlie-tca> Can I throw my two cents in?
<Rocket2DMn> i think i got confused on our topics - are we talking about the blog or about a new web interface to the docs?
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: we went back to the web-talk, sorry about that
<j1mc> charlie-tca: sure
<charlie-tca> I have been using Ubuntu/Xubuntu for about 6 years now.
<charlie-tca> I have been helping with support in IRC for about three
<charlie-tca> I do think having the docs on the web would be at least as helpful as on the CD, since most people will not look for docs anywhere but online
<charlie-tca> The first thought in today's world is "google"
<charlie-tca> and google seldom says "look at your computer"
<j1mc> :)
<charlie-tca> Even when wireless fails, people do not look at their installed system for docs.
<charlie-tca> Thanks for letting me say it.
<j1mc> thanks, charlie-tca
<j1mc> do other people think the short-term look at redoing server-docs, but progressing toward long-term getting the web-help in shape would be a good direction to go?
<j1mc> or is it a conflict of sorts?
<j1mc> i know it's a lot of work.
<Rocket2DMn> i dont thikn that conflicts, the serverguide is already online-only
<Rocket2DMn> but i think we need to continue shipping desktop docs for now
<Rocket2DMn> people still report bugs about using the desktop help, so people are definitely using it
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> others?
<Rocket2DMn> (on their systems that is)
<vtanthropologist> if the server docs will be minimal effort, it's probably ok, but I thought it would make more sense to put effort into one site and build it out for the other components as we can
 * j1mc nods... 
<j1mc> i'll get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.
<j1mc> i think this level of agreement is ok for this meeting though.
<j1mc> [AGREED] jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  jim to get to work on the server docs, and we'll start considering options for web help.
<ScottK> Please don't break the existing server guide.  It's pretty good.
<j1mc> [TOPIC] docs team blog - for real
<MootBot> New Topic:  docs team blog - for real
<j1mc> ScottK: it'll stay in the same format. same docbook.
<j1mc> ScottK: we'll talk more later
<j1mc> mdke emailed canonical RT about docs.ubuntu.com
<j1mc> but we haven't heard back
<j1mc> any comments on the emails that went out about this?
<Rocket2DMn> do other teams have a dedicated blog?
<j1mc> i know that the server team does, and i think a11y does, too.
<j1mc> there might be more
<j1mc> design team...
<j1mc> perhaps talk on this more once we hear back from RT?
<stgraber> edubuntu does as well. QA too, release team too, ...
<j1mc> ok... we'll wait on this a bit.
<j1mc> i know we're just over our hour, but can we still talk about the wiki?
<Rocket2DMn> i'm available if other teams dont have this time slot reserved
<j1mc> ok - we'll try here...
<j1mc> [TOPIC] Wiki cleanup
<MootBot> New Topic:  Wiki cleanup
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: you had some good comments on the ML about this.
<j1mc> have you had additional thoughts about it? anything you'd like to add?
<Rocket2DMn> i've spent some time over the last couple of weeks deleting a lot of old wiki pages
<Rocket2DMn> we could use help updating pages and/or tagging pages that need work or just need to be outright removed
<j1mc> i think that would be a good start
<Rocket2DMn> I have a question though
<j1mc> would anyone be available to get the word out about this request?
<j1mc> sure
<Rocket2DMn> some pages that are translated into other languages are marked for deletion
<Rocket2DMn> Do we support translated pages on the community docs?
<Rocket2DMn> I don't think it's the correct place for them, but I've never gone out of my way to manage them
<j1mc> good question... i would guess that the language coverage is pretty spotty, too.
<Rocket2DMn> it is, I'm not sure how well the pages are maintained either
<j1mc> is there an example page that you could point to?
<j1mc> how do you know if a page is translated?
<Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NlBluetooth
<Rocket2DMn> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RussianDocumentation
<Rocket2DMn> etc
<j1mc> thanks, Rocket2DMn.
<j1mc> should we bring these up on the ML?
<j1mc> i would feel bad about just deleting them, but we have no idea what they say, and i doubt they receive much of a review.
<j1mc> or i have no way of knowing if they are reviewed
<Rocket2DMn> ML is fine with me
<vtanthropologist> can a deleted page be restored or do you delete the history too?
<Rocket2DMn> they can be restored
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: do you have a blog on the planet? can you post about how to tag pages as outdated / needing review / recommended for deletion, or just point people to those pages on the wiki that describe how to do it?
<Rocket2DMn> j1mc, i don't keep a blog
<vtanthropologist> ok, so worst case if you don't get a response on the ML, deleting it should bring anyone that's been using it out of the woodwork
<j1mc> ok... i can blog about it.
<Rocket2DMn> vtanthropologist, if they are subscribed to the page, they should get an email
<j1mc> Rocket2DMn: could you send a note out to the ML about the translations?
<j1mc> (the wiki pages that have been translated)
<Rocket2DMn> yeah
<j1mc> ok. :)
<j1mc> [ACTION] connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages
<MootBot> ACTION received:  connor to send note to the ML about translated wiki pages
<j1mc> [ACTION] jim to blog about tagging wiki pages
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jim to blog about tagging wiki pages
<j1mc> anything else for today?
<Rocket2DMn> i dont have anything
<vtanthropologist> nor me
<j1mc> okies... thanks for joining all.  :)
<j1mc> enjoy the rest of your sunday, wherever that may be.
<j1mc> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:18.
<vtanthropologist> Sunday finished 7 hours ago, but there's lots of Monday left to enjoy
<vtanthropologist> :)
<j1mc> i'll send the minutes and log to the ML
<j1mc> vtanthropologist: i forget that you're in Australia. what part?
<Rocket2DMn> thanks j1mc
<vtanthropologist> Sydney
<j1mc> cool. :)
<vtanthropologist> I take it you're in the US
<vtanthropologist> ?
<j1mc> i just met someone from red hat in brisbane last week.
<j1mc> but i heard brisbane is kind of a smaller city
<j1mc> yes, i'm in the states
<vtanthropologist> yep.  we call it Brisvagas
<vtanthropologist> which part of the US?
<j1mc> central... chicago area.
<vtanthropologist> I liked Chicago.  I didn't get out of the city though
<j1mc> vtanthropologist: are there certain doc areas where you might want to write some docs? any certain apps or topics areas?
<vtanthropologist> I'd like to give it a go.  I was working with philbull on writing a better installation guide as pdf, but that lost momentum
<vtanthropologist> I find it difficult to know where things are up to in the docs systems and I wonder if I know the apps well enough to write docs
<j1mc> ok. we will have a better list of apps that need help soon.
<vtanthropologist> I use the basics a lot, but the basic docs already seem to be covered
<vtanthropologist> that's why I thought I could help with building the web site
<j1mc> yeah, when we were brainstorming docs for seahorse... we were asking lots of questions like, "what is this?" "what does this do?"
<j1mc> editing and review can be a good place to get situated, too.
<j1mc> if you aren't sure where things are in the "docs ecosystem"
<vtanthropologist> again, I can't find what needs reviewing.
<vtanthropologist> exactly
<j1mc> ok - i can write up something about that, too. that is good to know.
<j1mc> i'm going to head-out... thanks for your input, vtanthropologist
<vtanthropologist> I think there needs to be a much better onboarding process for interested newbies
<vtanthropologist> yep.  have a good day
<j1mc> thanks again.  ttyl
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-04
<tumbleweed> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
 * barry pongs
<Laney> WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 * stgraber waves
<Laney> alright?
 * jbicha waves
 * Laney wonders where in the world tumbleweed is now
<tumbleweed> aha, so I am chairing
<tumbleweed> Laney: london!
<Laney> joy of joys
<tumbleweed> that's 3 so far
 * micahg is here :)
<tumbleweed> oh 4
<tumbleweed> 5 even
<micahg> I think bdrung and cody-somerville both said they'd be unavailable, so that's probably as good as we'll get
<tumbleweed> sorry, bunch of stuff going on aronud me right now
<tumbleweed> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  4 14:09:03 2012 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<tumbleweed> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<tumbleweed> stgraber to give cfalco PPU for btpd and mame
<micahg> that's done
<tumbleweed> micahg to add cfalco to ubuntu-dev
<micahg> done
<tumbleweed> micahg to create LP team related to the new packageset
<micahg> done
<tumbleweed> stgraber to create the packageset and make the new team the uploader of it
<micahg> done
<tumbleweed> micahg to document the packageset
<micahg> not yet
<tumbleweed> stgraber to review the freeze process with bencer
<stgraber> poked highvoltage about it, not sure of exact status
<tumbleweed> micahg to add bencer to zentyal packageset
<tumbleweed> tumbleweed to chair the next meeting <- doing
<tumbleweed> tumbleweed to fix membership monitoring script <- done
<stgraber> bencer has been added to the zentyal packageset
<micahg> added to packageset (done)
<tumbleweed> cody-somerville and bdrung to vote in early meeting poll
 * tumbleweed doesn't have the link for that to hand
<Laney> they aren't here, so it probably doesn't matter to much :P
<Laney> too
<tumbleweed> aha, bt appears only cody-somerville still needs to
<tumbleweed> ok, on to applications
<tumbleweed> #chair stgraber
<meetingology> Current chairs: stgraber tumbleweed
 * tumbleweed hands the chari to stgraber while I run down the road to a pub. will pick up from there
<stgraber> right, so applications (/me loads the agenda)
<stgraber> #topic Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications - Juan Negron
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Contributing Developer Applications - Juan Negron
<tumbleweed> jbicha first, I think
<tumbleweed> oh, too late :)
<stgraber> negronjl: around?
 * stgraber gives negronjl a minute, then will go with jbicha 
<stgraber> #topic MOTU Applications - Jeremy Bicha
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Applications - Jeremy Bicha
<stgraber> jbicha: around?
<jbicha> hi!
<stgraber> hey, can you introduce yourself quickly? (I think we all know you, but still ... :))
<jbicha> I help package GNOME with the Ubuntu Desktop Team and I maintain ubuntu-docs.
<jbicha> I'm applying for MOTU because some GNOME-related stuff is in universe & not really suitable for the desktop-extra packageset
<jbicha> MOTU also is nice for getting new stuff into Ubuntu, and for the other interesting universe packages
<Laney> hrm, unofficial stuff I guess?
<Laney> Nothing you'd need for the new flavour, for example/
<jbicha> yes
<jbicha> the new GNOME flavor if approved would probably overlap with the desktop-extra set
<Laney> I hope we can keep it contained within main + desktop-extra
<jbicha> but there will still be universe stuff I'm interested in that won't be in either of those two sets
<Laney> sure
<micahg> jbicha: how much experience have you had with non-GNOME related packaging
<jbicha> what I mean is that I'm not sure we need the desktop-extra set if we have a "gnomebuntu" set
<micahg> well, also, if there's a new flavor, there's a new seed metapackage (and desktop-extra might disappear)
<Laney> if it comes with a fancy auto generated package set, that is very possible
<jbicha> micahg: most of what I've worked on has been GNOME, but I've occasionally worked with other things
<jbicha> my first Ubuntu upload was for moodle for instance & I worked with the kabikaboo maintainer to get that into Debian & then Ubuntu
<jbicha> kabikaboo is a python app for writing novels and such
<jbicha> the GNOME stuff usually uses cdbs but I'm fairly comfortable with dh7 as well
<micahg> jbicha: is there any reason why you only have one endorsement?
<jbicha> micahg: I didn't do a good job of finding endorsements
<jbicha> for universe stuff, it looks like dholbach did most of the sponsoring
 * dholbach hugs jbicha :)
<dholbach> as long as i can remember I never had to ask jbicha to re-do any of his work
<dholbach> it was AFAICR tip top work
<Laney> jbicha: Do you think you'll get involved with other stuff MOTU does?
<dholbach> and he has had upload rights for desktop related stuff for quite a while
 * ScottK feels comfortable with jbicha as MOTU as well.
<jbicha> Laney: what other stuff?
<Laney> mentoring initiatives, sponsoring and stuff like that
<Laney> QA activities especially nearer the release
 * tumbleweed returns
<jbicha> yes I'd like to sponsor more stuff, getting new contributors included is important
<jbicha> I look at the nbs and ftbfs trackers and try to fix things where I can
<Laney> the active team is pretty small these days, so people are always needed to pitch in with the leg work
<barry> jbicha: what's the best python build helper to use these days?
<jbicha> barry: dh_python2 :)
<barry> jbicha: good answer :)  from a technical (not process) point of view, how would you convert from say py_support or py_central to dh_py2?
<jbicha> I basically follow the checklist at http://wiki.debian.org/Python/TransitionToDHPython2
<jbicha> remove pycentral and pysupport from debian/control and fix debian/rules
<barry> jbicha: two-for-two :)  from a process point of view, how would you handle cases where the debian package uses pysupport or pycentral, but the ubuntu version wants to use dhpy2?
<jbicha> generally I'd try to get the change into Debian first
<barry> jbicha: what if the debian maintainer doesn't want to use dhpy2, or doesn't respond after a reasonable amount of time?
<jbicha> well python-support and pycentral are deprecated so the Debian maintainer ought to consider switching
<jbicha> unless the package is shipped on a CD, I don't think dhpy2 alone is worth having a diff from Debian
<micahg> jbicha: do you know how to tell if images are affected by your uploads?  (MOTU can break everything except for Desktop and Kubuntu ATM)
<barry> jbicha: you're applying for motu, but do you think main v universe influences that decision?
<jbicha> I've just learned to use seeded-in-ubuntu for that
<jbicha> barry: yes, I don't think we want pysupport or pycentral in main at all and we would diverge from Debian to make that happen
<stgraber> jbicha: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce and reading it at least daily?
<barry> jbicha: thanks for your answers
<jbicha> stgraber: yes, I'm on too many mailing lists :)
 * barry thinks you can never be on too many mailing lists :)
 * micahg subscribes barry to lkml
<stgraber> jbicha: good. Also, would you be allowed to upload non-critical changes to a seeded package in quantal today?
<jbicha> stgraber: it's probably a bad idea since we're trying to get Alpha 1 out the door this week
<stgraber> good :)
<Laney> vote?
<stgraber> sounds good
<Laney> go go co-chair
<stgraber> #vote MOTU for jbicha
<meetingology> Please vote on: MOTU for jbicha
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<micahg> +0, would've liked to have seen more endorsements and more non-GNOME related work
<meetingology> +0, would've liked to have seen more endorsements and more non-GNOME related work received from micahg
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<stgraber> waiting a bit longer for tumbleweed to reappear
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: MOTU for jbicha
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Laney> \o
<jbicha> thank you!
<barry> jbicha: congrats!
<stgraber> added to the team
<Laney> dholbach: get the publicity out!
<tumbleweed> #topic Any other Business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other Business?
<tumbleweed> negronjl still appears to be missing
<dholbach> yeehaw
<dholbach> congratulations
<tumbleweed> ~rodrigo-moya appears to have expired from ubuntu-dev
<xnox> well there isn't much time left anyway =)
<tumbleweed> stgraber: can you remove his PPU rights?
<tumbleweed> xnox: we have a nasty habit of running over
 * Laney warms the fire for xnox next time
<stgraber> tumbleweed: yep
<tumbleweed> (by an hour or so)
<tumbleweed> next chair: stgraber?
 * xnox notes down to bring olive oil and herbs for Laney 
<Laney> sounds good
<stgraber> tumbleweed: sure
<tumbleweed> anything else?
<barry> xnox: are you cooking for us?  maybe we should make that a requirement for all applicants
<xnox> barry: I believe Laney is setting me on fire, during the next meeting....
<stgraber> tumbleweed: maybe I'm blind but I'm not seeing any PPU for jbicha, only membership in -desktop and -desktop-extra-dev
<tumbleweed> stgraber: rodrigo-moya
<stgraber> tumbleweed: ah!
 * stgraber should read more than just the hilights
 * tumbleweed mailed the list, abou tit
<stgraber> tumbleweed: rodrigo is also still in ubuntu-desktop
<tumbleweed> right. but he was in ubuntu-dev for PPU, so either we re-instate him into ubuntu-dev or remove the PPU rights
<stgraber> ok, removed
<stgraber> he just had two, couchdb-glib and evolution-couchdb
<tumbleweed> great, thanks
<tumbleweed> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  4 15:07:16 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-04-14.09.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-04-14.09.html
<barry> thanks tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> thanks stgraber :)
<tumbleweed> welcome jbicha
<ScottK> congratulations jbicha.
<negronjl> apologies for the "no show", I read 19:00 UTC instead of 14:00 UTC ... I'll add myself to the next meeting ... I'll make sure to read the correct time this time around :/
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  4 18:00:52 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mdeslaur> hello
<tyhicks> hello
<sbeattie> o/
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of any previous action items
<jdstrand> ACTION: desktop team requested that our regular mozilla testing happen by a certain date
<jjohansen> \o
<jdstrand> micahg: can you explain what came of this? ^
<jdstrand> s/explain/describe/
<micahg> sure, we decided that we will do partial testing on weeks 4 and 5 of the 6 week mozilla cycle (ending up in full coverage) in order to catch any show stoppers before release week
<jdstrand> micahg: the sum of the partial testing is such that it is not more than 1 full test run. correct?
<micahg> correct
<jdstrand> that's great. it is consistent with what we wanted in terms of testing and also gives everyone more confidence all along
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> micahg: thanks
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week. I am focussing on updates and embargoed issues
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> I just finished publishing update-manager
<mdeslaur> and am currently working on bind9
<mdeslaur> I also have an embargoed issue to continue massive testing
<mdeslaur> and have postgresql and mysql updates to publish too
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I have an embargoed issue on my plate.
<sbeattie> I also need to start on the openjdk-6 backport to older releases
<sbeattie> I'll try to pick up another update as well.
<sbeattie> that's it for me.
<sbeattie> micahg: you're up
<micahg> Mozilla release week (Firefox/Thunderbird), still working on Chromium, then webkit
<mdeslaur> micahg: what's the status with webkit?
<micahg> umm...precise is ready, just waiting for me to grab the CVEs associated and upload
<micahg> anything else for me?
<mdeslaur> who's next? tyhicks?
<tyhicks> yep
<tyhicks> I'm in the community role this week
<tyhicks> Due to my shortened work week last week, I wasn't able to put the 'done' stamp on some of the things I was working on, so I need to put finishing touches on a few things still
<tyhicks> The eCryptfs zero-length file patches is one of those things
<tyhicks> I'm in the process of reviewing a big eCryptfs patch that cking forward ported which really gives eCryptfs performance a huge boost
<tyhicks> He did just an awesome job of performance testing the patch on several different machines so I'm trying to get a quick response back to him
<tyhicks> The pidgin update is still pending
<tyhicks> and I plan on starting the LUKS work item
<tyhicks> that's it
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I have an embargo issue I am working on
<jjohansen> I need to wrap up my kernel team base wi so I can mark them done
<jjohansen> I will get back to finishing up the userspace policy matching wi
<jjohansen> I think that is for /me jdstrand back to you
<jdstrand> sbeattie: the last coupel weeks you had apparmor sru listed, but I didn't see it this week. does that mean it is done?
<sbeattie> jdstrand: no, I need to work on that, too.
<jjohansen> jdstrand: though if we are just pulling in patches, there may not be much to do
 * jjohansen should have added he needs to rewrite the apparmor release process notes before he forgets how, after the lp + bzr fun of the 2.8 release
<mdeslaur> who's going to push AA 2.8 to quantal?
<sbeattie> jjohansen: do you have any more patches for the SRU?
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: I can work on it.
<jjohansen> sbeattie: no not at this time, I have some regression test additions that aren't quite done etc, but nothing critical
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: cool
<sbeattie> jjohansen: okay
<jjohansen> sbeattie: just stick with 2.8, and we can update with 2.8.1 later
<sbeattie> jjohansen: sure
<sbeattie> (for the SRU, I'm cherry-picking anyway)
<jdstrand> ok, shall we move on?
<jjohansen> yes
<mdeslaur> yes, thanks
<sbeattie> yes
<jdstrand> thanks
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ziproxy.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/fusionforge.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/aria2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mosh.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/torcs.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> There are a lot of merge opportunities for packages listed in http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/. Performing these updates is a great way to help Ubuntu and bolster your developer application.
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  4 18:38:42 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-04-18.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-04-18.00.html
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> thanks jdstrand!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-05
<gipsypyaesone> is there anymeeting? i can't access wiki.ubuntu.com :-)
<astraljava> gipsypyaesone: Meeting schedule can be found on fridge.ubuntu.com, but could be down if wiki is, too.
<gipsypyaesone> meeting not started yet?
<hallyn> o/
<adam_g> o/
<arosales> hello
<jimbaker> hi
<roaksoax> o/
<smoser> o./
<smb> o/
<zul> hello
<smoser> oh fun
<smoser> so... Chair candidates: Daviey SpamapS jamespage smoser
<arosales> daviey and james are out at the jubilee
<smoser> yeah, joy
<smoser> so, i win!
<arosales> smoser: I can also host if you wish
<smoser> hm..
<arosales> but feel free to proceede
<smoser> arosales, since you're not on the list, you can take a turn, and add yourself to the end.
<smoser> make sense?
<arosales> smoser: ok, its all yours
<smoser> list: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<smoser> k.
<smoser> #startmeeting Ubuntu Server Team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  5 16:05:38 2012 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser>  * zul to sync up with arosales and jamespage.
<zul> done
<smoser>  what'd we find ? i think that was wrt blueprint maintenance, right?
<zul> we have a list of sru bugs to track now again
<arosales> zul made the SRU tracker filter by release
<arosales> which james page is using in the SRU meetings
<smoser>  ah. oh yeah.
<smoser> k.
<arosales> zul can you give that link to smoser
<smoser>  http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/reports/precise.html ?
<smoser> zul, ^ is that right?
<zul> arosales: sure gimme a sec http://people.canonical.com/~jamespage/server-sru/precise-sru.html
<smoser> k.
<smoser>  * email arosales/Daviey if interested in ubuntu-mir membership
<smoser> anyone email you, arosales ?
<smoser>  hm... i'll assume no
<smoser> moving on.
<arosales> yes hallyn was interested and we are discussing logistics
<smoser> ah. cool.
<smoser> awesome even.
<smoser> thanks hallyn
<smoser>  * rbasak to drive migration to ubuntuserver.org
<arosales> that was all the interest I received though
<smoser> rbasak is out, we'll put that back on the list and bother him next week.
<smoser> #action  rbasak to drive migration to ubuntuserver.org
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to drive migration to ubuntuserver.org
<smoser>  * To finish BP documentation and mark them Review ASAP!
<smoser> i believe that was largely done.  There are a few blueprints still not approved, though.  roaksoax had some that he was asking about.
<smoser>  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-openstack-ha
<smoser> and
<smoser>  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-powernap-opencompute-integration
<smoser> if you have others, please ping arosales or Daviey email or IRC.
<smoser>  * Anyone interested in taking care of bug #972077 to ping smoser
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 972077 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt repository disk format has race conditions" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/972077
<smoser> no one pinged me. :-(. but again, rbasak was hoping to have some time on that. so i'll follow up with him manana
<smoser> #action smoser follow up with rbasak re bug 972077
<meetingology> ACTION: smoser follow up with rbasak re bug 972077
<smoser> #topic Quantal Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Quantal Development
<smoser>  * Release Bugs: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<smoser> so thats a nice bug list, it'd be good to for anyone/eveyrone to take alook over it and see if there is anything you can hlpe with.
<smoser> then.... quantal development
<smoser> in case you didn't know. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule
<arosales> Work items looked to be getting fleshed out, but if you have any remaining please be sure to document those.
<smoser> There is apparently an alpha coming up (Thursday).
<arosales> A1, whoo hoo
<arosales> :-)
<smoser> so, we will need to be testing.
<arosales> Also if folks could take a look at integrating https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BlueprintSpec into the white board for their blueprints, that would be much appreciated :-)
<smoser> i'm gonna move on  if no one has anythign specific here.
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> lets see...
<smoser>  * theres an alpha coming up.
<smoser> anything else?
<m_3> home for a while... whew
<m_3> puppetconf submissions are soon tho
<smoser> bummer, m_3. i always look forward to notes on the m_3 juju world tour
<m_3> ha
<jimbaker> i'm going to be at usenix config mgmt summit next tues
<jimbaker> spreading some of the good juju
<jimbaker> (in boston)
<smoser> presentations deadline for http://reinvent.awsevents.com/ was extended to June 8
<smoser> if you're interested.
<smoser> next.
<smoser> #topic
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<smoser> hggdh, how do you do ?
<smoser> hm.. we'll assume that means nothing.
<smoser> and go on.
<smoser> i know that our good friend smb is here though
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> I am
<smoser> anything interesting?
<smb> But have not much to say today...
<smoser> k. anyone have anything kernel releated.
<smoser> ?
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<smoser>  * rbasak is away. tune in next week.
<smoser> #topic open discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  open discussion
<smoser> anyone?
<m_3> upvote the scaling article please http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4069164
<jimbaker> m_3, nice article!
<m_3> thanks... we'll see if it'll make it on the boards :)
<smoser> ok then, if nothing else, then that brings us to the end of our meeting.
<smoser> please, try to hold back your tears. we'll be back next week.
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Server Team Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<m_3> o/
<smoser> next meeting: Tuesday 2012-06-12 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<smoser> see you all then.
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  5 16:22:57 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-05-16.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-05-16.05.html
<arosales> thanks for chairing smoser :-)
<Daviey> looks like a tantalising meeting.
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  5 16:59:12 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<bjf> \o/
<ogasawara> o/
<smb> \o
 * smb notes all of UK is not there
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> o/
<herton> o/
<ogra_> smb ... slacky monarchists
<sforshee> o/
<sconklin> o/
<ppisati> Q/omap4: Ubuntu-3.4.0-201.6 is out, restoring linux-tools package.
<ppisati> Q/master: omap3 support from master branch was restored (boards can boot and i/o works fine). Unfortunately, framebuffer support is still broken (if we compile it in, we got a WARN() dur
<smb> ogra_, We do not mention Thursday :-P
<ppisati> ing boot and no output).
<ppisati> ..
<ogra_> :)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/canonical-kernel-distro-team-quantal-alpha-1.html
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 5 work item   ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 3 work items  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-versions-and-flavors || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || cking       || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 4 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || cooloney    || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || jjohansen   || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || jk-         || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati     || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 1 work item   ||
<ogasawara> || tgardner    || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 2 work items  ||
<ogasawara> || kernel-team || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-versions-and-flavors || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Alpha-1 work
<ogasawara> items.  I'll retarget any open work items to Alpha-2.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Quantal Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Quantal Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have recently uploaded the 3.4.0-4.10 Quantal kernel.  This most
<ogasawara> notable enables the new highbank kernel flavor.  We also did extensive
<ogasawara> rework to the kernel configs in this upload.  We are currently prepping
<ogasawara> a last minute upload for fixes to bugs 1008905 and 1009061.  After that
<ogasawara> we are entering a soft freeze for the Alpha-1 release on Thursday.  Only
<ogasawara> critical bug fixes for the release will warrant another upload.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1008905 in linux (Ubuntu Quantal) "Quantal Desktop AMD64+Mac on MacMini: BUG: unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference at 00000000000000a0" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1008905
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1009061 in linux (Ubuntu) "Beagleboard doesn't boot" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1009061
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Jun 7 - Alpha 1 (~2 days)
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Jun 28 - Alpha 2 (~3 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (sconklin)
<sconklin> == 2012-06-05 (weekly) ==
<sconklin> Currently we have 89 CVEs on our radar, with 1 new CVEs added this week.
<sconklin> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<sconklin> Overall the backlog has increased slightly slightly this week:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<sconklin> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Oneiric/Natty/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Oneiric/Natty/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<bjf> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (June  05):
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Hardy    - 2.6.24-31.101 - No change this cycle
<bjf>  * Lucid    - 2.6.32-41.90  - Ready for -updates; Single CVE
<bjf>  * Natty    - 2.6.38-15.60  - In -updates: 7 CVEs
<bjf>  * Oneiric  - 3.0.0-21.35   - In Testing; 2 stable upstream releases (approx. 111 commits)
<bjf>  * Precise  - 3.2.0-25.40   - In Testing; 2 stable upstream releases (approx. 271 commits)
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  5 17:04:01 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-05-16.59.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-05-16.59.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-06
<MohamedAlaa98> hello guys :)
<MohamedAlaa98> When will be the next meeting?
<phillw> qa meeting due nowish :)
<MohamedAlaa98> sorry?
<MohamedAlaa98> I mean the ubuntu membership meeting>
<phillw> MohamedAlaa98: I know they recently changed the structure. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership has the full details.
<balloons> aloha everyone!
<phillw> hi balloons
<balloons> let's have at it
<balloons> #startmeeting ubuntu qa community
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun  6 14:03:27 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu qa community Meeting | Current topic:
<balloons> Ok, let's do a quick role call and see who's around
<phillw> o/
<MohamedAlaa98> me :)
<balloons> excellent :-)
<balloons> I can only assume everyone else is iso testing :-)
<balloons> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu qa community Meeting | Current topic:  Previous Actions
<balloons> I don't believe we have any
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu qa community Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Updates
<balloons> So, I wonder if gema is around
<balloons> the UK has had a bit of a holiday and long weekend
<phillw> we're all supposed to be back today :)
<pitti> in general she is
<balloons> that's right.. everyone is back today :-)
<balloons> We'll move on for the moment to the flavors I think
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Flavor Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu qa community Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Flavor Updates
<balloons> phillw, why don't you start us off -- and is your successor around?
<phillw> my successor has not agreed to the role - so you're stuck with me :P
<balloons> :p
<phillw> testing seems okay. a few minor niggles. One thing that is causing concern is that there does not appear to be a browser for ppc builds in 12.10 (they used Ffox in 12.04).
<MohamedAlaa98> I'm still here :)
<balloons> phillw, what do you mean no browser?
<phillw> no Chromium (never was ppc) but no Ffox either this time.
<balloons> aka, there's no ppc build for ffox..
<phillw> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1008975
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1008975 in lubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Firefox and Chromium missing from powerpc live cd image" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<balloons> did they drop support on ff's end?
<MohamedAlaa98> quit
<phillw> idk, I was made aware of it a couple of days ago. The lubuntu-qa team is in discussion with Julien, but I guess it would affect all of the ppc builds?
<balloons> seems like it does https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=691898
<ubottu> Mozilla bug 691898 in JavaScript Engine "Use YARR interpreter instead of PCRE on platforms where YARR JIT is not supported, since PCRE doesnt build" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<balloons> anyways, it looks like they fixed the issue, so it should be possible to build on ppc again with there code changes
<phillw> excellent news, i will communicate it to the testers :)
<balloons> well, julien linked to the ubuntu bug, which is still pending
<phillw> how do we go about getting it into 12.10?
<balloons> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/987421
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 987421 in thunderbird (Ubuntu Quantal) "Firefox/Thunderbird 12 FTBFS on powerpc" [Medium,Triaged]
<phillw> okies, I'll leave it in Juliens' capable hands :)
<balloons> :-)
<balloons> the good news is it CAN be fixed, how's that?
<balloons> anything else to report?
<phillw> nope. I'm done :)
<balloons> thanks phillw
<balloons> and as always, thanks to all the lubuntu QA team -- you guys are doing good work again on alpha one :-)
<balloons> alright, do we have someone from xubuntu?
<balloons> astraljava, you about?
<balloons> how about ubuntu studio?
<balloons> Well I can give the update for both that they are not participating in alpha 1..
<balloons> anyone around for kubuntu?
<balloons> They too are not issuing iso's for alpha 1
<Riddell> mm?
<Riddell> I'm testing alpha 1 right now
<balloons> err.. sorry Riddell
<balloons> yes, not the full suite of images.. just the desktop for alpha 1
<balloons> correct?
<Riddell> right, which will probably become the full suite of images
<balloons> great, anything else to report -- how's the testing going?
<Riddell> pleasingly well
<balloons> anything else to add?
<Riddell> not just now
<balloons> that's great news.. I hope it's smooth sailing for you :-)
<balloons> Alright, finally mythbuntu, which isn't pushing out a DVD for alpha 1
<balloons> [TOPIC] Other Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu qa community Meeting | Current topic:  Other Updates
<balloons> I suppose I shall fill in then for updates for ubuntu
<balloons> As everyone knows, it's alpha 1 testing time
<balloons> we've had a few respins already, fixing some kernel bugs and other issues
<balloons> the following caused respins:
<balloons> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-base/+bug/1006717
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1006717 in The Eilt project "[MIR] linux-base" [High,New]
<balloons> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1008898
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1008898 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Quantal) "crash after inserting wireless password" [High,Fix released]
<balloons> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1008905
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1008905 in linux (Ubuntu Quantal) "Quantal Desktop AMD64+Mac on MacMini: BUG: unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference at 00000000000000a0" [High,Fix released]
<balloons> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/isc-dhcp/+bug/1006937
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1006937 in isc-dhcp (Ubuntu) "dhclient does not send hostname to dhcp-server" [Undecided,Fix released]
<balloons> thanks to everyone testing on alpha 1 and helping find and sort out these issues
<balloons> Updates from me:
<balloons> working on the first call for testing to be announced tomorrow -- we'll be testing the 12.10 kernel on 12.04 and using the qatracker to do it :-)
<balloons> working with popey to understand how unity testing will happen this cycle
<balloons> and meeting with the hexr team to understand how we can roll out a community hardware database using HEXR
<balloons> Anyone else have a question or update they'd like to share?
<phillw> o/
<balloons> go ahead
<phillw> do you have the link to the area where the devs flag up what is being considered to cause a respin. It was an excellent resource last time :)
<balloons> phillw, sure
<phillw> afaik, no one dared edit anything on it last cycle from lubuntu-qa :)
<balloons> hehe :-)
<balloons> yes, also I was just checking, but the build notes for the iso's should contain the same information
<balloons> I'm not sure I'm seeing such things, so that's something for me to follow-up with
<balloons> alright, anything else?
<balloons> if not, we're finishing up early :-)
<jibel> o/
<balloons> jibel, go ahead
<jibel> about quantal alpha 1 testing
<jibel> as you said we've had a few respins already
<jibel> I'd just like to mention that there is a build in progress of ubuntu desktop
<jibel> and new images will be published in 1h or so
<balloons> jibel, ohh really? ahh
<jibel> so stay tuned on #ubuntu-testing to help us review these images
<balloons> I just synced and was surprised nothing new came in overnight
<jibel> balloons, really
<jibel> we need tests on HW with wireless and Macs
<jibel> but review on VM won't hurt :)
<balloons> your bugfix is landing for the mac mini?
<jibel> yep, new kernel to fix a bug with B43 wireless cards
<jibel> and fix in Ubiquity to workaround a bug in python3
<jibel> that's all from me
<jibel> ..
<balloons> thanks jibel !
<balloons> ok, everyone thanks for coming out.. happy testing
<balloons> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun  6 14:44:02 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-06-14.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-06-14.03.html
<infinity> o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun  6 15:01:44 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
 * stgraber waves
<ogra_> moop
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
 * xnox turns off countdown theme tune
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra infinity cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> ogra ev stokachu stgraber slangasek xnox cjwatson bdmurray infinity doko barry jodh
<highvoltage> nice
<ogra_> geez, i'm first !
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_> * flash-kernel fixes and merges and more findings for more fixes and merges next
<ogra_>  week
<ogra_> * image tests ... and more image tests.. and even more ahead
<ogra_> * researching image build issues
<ogra_> * discovered a bunch of bugs with the recent panda kernels and worked with paolo on them
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_> * corpus christi tomorrow in my state (not all of germany has it as a bank holiday, my state does though)
<ogra_> * fix live-build to actually produce ac100 images with the new flash-kernel
<ogra_> * finally switch to live arm images now that A1 is done
<ogra_> * look into how to integrate flash-kernel into debian-cd to make images bootable
<ogra_> * upload pending merges
<ogra_> ..
<ev> pass (still typing)
<xnox> stokachu: has been working hard this week as well?!
<slangasek> stokachu: hiya :) anything you'd like to share re: this week's activity?  (autofs, autofs, and more autofs)
<xnox> slangasek: there was dpatch envolved as well =)
<slangasek> stgraber: go ahead
<stgraber> - SRU
<stgraber>  - Went through the list of pending SRUs for Precise and helped verify these that didn't need any weird setup
<stgraber>  - First 12.04.1 team meeting, worked on team wiki page, announced team on mailing-lists
<stgraber>  - While testing LXC nesting, found a pretty nasty bug in euca2ools (making /etc/ssl/certs a static file if installed before openssl), fixed and SRUed
<stgraber> - Release
<stgraber>  - Quick training on cdimage handling and alpha-1 preparing with Kate
<stgraber>  - Alpha-1 preparation
<stgraber>  - Tracked down a python3-dbus bug making the installer crash when connecting to wifi, worked around for alpha-1, fix is now upstream
<stgraber> - Containers
<stgraber>  - Added LXC backend to auto-upgrade-testing
<stgraber>  - Implemented early version of the python module, currently wrapping the C commands, will be ported to liblxc soon
<stgraber>  - Started testing LXC's SRU, found a bug, fixed in quantal and SRUed the fix
<stgraber> - ISO tracker
<stgraber>  - New roles for product management and testcase management
<stgraber>  - Add a new buginstruction text field to products
<stgraber>  - Improve ACL checking
<stgraber>  - Some more work on testsuites management, moving columns between tables, updating UI
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>  - Booked flights to Plumbers
<stgraber> - TODO this week
<stgraber>  - More alpha-1 fun
<stgraber>  - Continue with ISO tracker changes based on the list from QA and work items
<stgraber>  - Continue going through the pending-sru and help for these that are stuck on verification-needed
<stgraber>  - Look at the isc-dhcp SRU for Oneiric (asked for some information in the bug)
<stgraber> (DONE)
<slangasek> ev: ready yet?
<ev> yes
<ev> - Very short week. Packing Millbank desk for Blue Fin move on Thursday, party
<ev>   on Sunday, public holiday Monday and Tuesday.
<ev> - Mail to Andy, Martin, and James Westby on a plan for how we can get the
<ev>   kernel crash collecting work finished and reporting to errors.ubuntu.com.
<ev> - Wrote debugging guide for whoopsie-daisy:
<ev>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker/Debugging
<ev> - Uploaded a new Wubi for 12.10.
<ev> - Worked in some performance improvements to errors.ubuntu.com requested by
<ev>   webops. We've been seeing some timeouts getting hit by some of the
<ev>   components talking to Cassandra. As we don't have statsd and Graphite up yet
<ev>   (RT awaiting action from webops), I can only pick at low hanging fruit. This
<ev>   change moves from getting a column count from several wide rows (which reads
<ev>   the entire row into memory) for the "average crashes per user" graph to
<ev>   using counters.
<ev> - Added txstatsd and Graphite code to lp:errors and lp:daisy. Added JMX to
<ev>   Graphite via JMXTrans. The latter gives us Cassandra operational stats in
<ev>   Graphite. None of this is deployed yet as we need a new Graphite server
<ev>   (RT #53325).
<ev> - Some clean up of the tastypie branch of lp:errors on advice from James
<ev>   Westby. Now implements the list protocol to provide lazy evalution of the
<ev>   query, emulating behavior found in evil ORMs.
<ev> - More discussion with Martin around uniting the Launchpad and crashdb
<ev>   retracers.
<ev> (done)
<slangasek> good thing it's a short week ;)
<ev> heh
<ev> - Read on Wandsworth Common
<ev> - Played catch with the dog
<ev> - Watched pretty much the entire running of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia on Netflix
<ev> (done)
<ogra_> legally ?
<ev> ogra_: it is not yet illegal to play catch on the common
<infinity> How do you illegally play catch with a dog?
<ogra_> ha
<slangasek>  * lining up the python3 sprint
<slangasek>  * DebConf planning
<slangasek>  * discovered a lingering startup issue with rpcbind/statd/nis; fix in progress (bug #1007293)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1007293 in rpcbind (Ubuntu Precise) "nis doesn't work anymore after upgrade to 12.04" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1007293
<slangasek>  * SRU processing, and some verification (update-notifier, rpcbind)
<slangasek> (done)
<njin> who win, the dog ?
<slangasek>  * helping here and there with A1 release this week
<ev> njin: always
<njin> Hurra for the dog
<slangasek> xnox:
<xnox> * autofs merge is in progress, some patches accepted into debian
<xnox> * applied for core-dev, due on 18th of June
<xnox> * working on foundations-q-ubiquity-lvm-luks, attempting to pre-seed now
<xnox> * mpt is working on the luks design (no mockups yet)
<xnox> * got quad hdd usb3.0 dock, helping kernel team to bisect when we lost
<xnox> 3.0 support in kernel cause I have the
<xnox> hardware. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/966248
<xnox> * short week due to queen's diamond jubilee
<xnox> * this week: ubiquity, ubiquity, ubiquity...
<xnox> * during other days did boost1.49, offlineimap, usb-creator for
<xnox> debian work, visited canonical offices.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 966248 in linux (Ubuntu) "USB3.0 Ports Not Working" [Medium,Confirmed]
<slangasek> xnox: do you know an eta from mpt for the mockups?
<xnox> slangasek: no.
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> Three-day week due to public holidays.  (Hid up north and pretended not to be British.)
<cjwatson> Wrote an API client for removing packages and killed off the old shell-access-only script.
<cjwatson> Landed PaS parsing fix for any-arm.
<cjwatson> Fixed ubiquity bug 1003443 which was breaking automatic tests.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1003443 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Quantal) "Ubuntu Quantal Desktop 20120523 failed to install: ubi-timezone failed with exit code 2" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1003443
<cjwatson> Added syslinux-themes-ubuntu-quantal package to fix Chinese edition image builds.
<cjwatson> Attempted to fix up update-manager following work on relative imports; unfortunately I ran out of time and Michael had to clean up after me.
<cjwatson> *Just* managed to get https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/queue-api/+merge/108967 in for review, which should be enough to allow moving queue to an API client.
<cjwatson> ..
<bdmurray> investigation into the fix for bug 346386 not working in Precise
<bdmurray> queried for foundations bugs with the most duplicates that are actively receiving dupes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 346386 in apt (Ubuntu Natty) "[MASTER] Update fails with invalid package files with "Encountered a section with no Package: header"" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346386
<bdmurray> review of foundations team bugs with the most duplicates
<bdmurray> wrote json reader / alerter for spikes in bug volume e.g. recent-package-bugs
<bdmurray> modified bug bot not to modify precise bugs saying they need a new update-initramfs
<bdmurray> modified search-bugs in ubuntu-bugpatterns to copy tags from duplicate to the master bug
<bdmurray> wrote lp-bug-dupe-props in lptools to prevent working on bugs with duplicates with the same reporter
<bdmurray> modified lp-bug-dupe-props to check description for apport key / value pairs
<bdmurray> reported bug 1007637 regarding preventing reporting multiple package install failures
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1007637 in apport (Ubuntu) "ubuntu general hook should check to see if package install failure has already happened" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1007637
<bdmurray> apport modification to ensure that package_hook tags update-manager dist-upgrade bugs dist-upgrade
<bdmurray> investigation into apport-package failures not being sent to the error tracker
<bdmurray> launchpad dev environment setup
<bdmurray> â done
<infinity> * Last week:
<infinity>   - Did some SRU stuff and other random AA faff while in HK
<infinity>   - Worked on non-public *mumble*mumble* stuff with jk
<infinity>   - Reviewed and sponsored some simple uploads for xnox
<infinity> * Linaro Connect last week:
<infinity>   - Good discussions around v8 progress in ARM and with upstreams
<infinity>   - ARM will be backporting their GCC patches to 4.7 for us
<infinity>   - Binutils should be out "soon", but still ARM-internal for now
<infinity>   - Need to chase up Linaro to get qemu-user-aarch64 working
<infinity>   - Lots of other good discussions around big.LITTLE, v7 server
<infinity>     concerns, single zImage (almost there!), and other fun bits
<infinity> * PlusOneMaint, starting this week
<infinity>   - Cleaned up quantal_probs on Monday, leading to my first +1 beer
<infinity>   - Training up Andy for PlusOneMinion tasks, currently teaching him
<infinity>     the joys and pain of hunting build failures
<infinity>   - Setting up my new laptop, as the old one's display unceremoniously
<infinity>     died the day after I got home from Hong Kong
<infinity> (done)
<barry> py3 porting: lazr.authorization, wsgi_intercept, oauth, httplib2 (issue 210), lazr.restfulclient.  this did not go well (details available on request), so i explored alternatives w/pitti who made me very happy.  apport's dependency on launchpadlib is server side only, so he's going to juggle the packages/deps to remove the ubuntu-desktop task dep.  \o/
<barry> python issue 14673 and pep 421 implementation (review, sponsor).
<barry> provided some consulting for bug 1008898 (upstream dbus-python py3 bug).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1008898 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Quantal) "crash after inserting wireless password" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1008898
<barry> worked a bit on my dd application + debian uploads
<barry> todo: re-chase some dependencies and update the spreadsheet.  prep for next week's sprint
<barry> done.
<njin> translating debugging central for italian reporters, hardware testing A1 - in progress
<njin> done
<ogra_> no jodh today ?
<infinity> Not in the channel, at any rate.
<ogra_> yep
<slangasek> right
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything new? :)
<bdmurray> I mentioned bug 346386 being unfixed in precise
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 346386 in apt (Ubuntu Natty) "[MASTER] Update fails with invalid package files with "Encountered a section with no Package: header"" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346386
<slangasek> yep
<ogra_> from natty ?
<ogra_> wow
<slangasek> did you find the reason for its unfixedness?
<bdmurray> I found the relevant bit I think
<bdmurray> in acquire-item.cc there is now a if (Verify == true) check
<bdmurray> which didn't exist in oneiric
<slangasek> should the bug be reopened?
<bdmurray> yes probably
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> next steps?  will you follow up with the apt maintainers (David/mvo)?
<bdmurray> yes, I've talked to mvo about it briefly
<slangasek> ok cool
<slangasek> anything else on the "actively receiving dupes" list that we should be aware of?
<bdmurray> as I was looking at bugs w/ the most duplicates I ran across bug 529714
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 529714 in eglibc (Ubuntu) "rhythmbox crashed with SIGSEGV in _nss_wins_gethostbyname_r()" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/529714
<slangasek> hmm, are there new dupes coming in?
<bdmurray> which times out
<bdmurray> no, but it clutters the most duplicates list
<slangasek> right
<bdmurray> and I thought breaking out the 'suggesting use of RTLD_DEEPBIND when
<bdmurray> opening nss modules from eglibc' task might be a good idea
<slangasek> sounds good to me
<bdmurray> okay
<bdmurray> then infinity and I were looking at bug 1001904 yesterday evening
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1001904 in sysvinit (Ubuntu) "package sysvutils (not installed) failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/share/man/man1/mesg.1.gz', which is also in package sysvinit-utils 2.88dsf-13.10ubuntu11" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1001904
<bdmurray> the users had added hardy to their sources
<slangasek> and people are doing this because there's a java package still in the hardy archive?
<slangasek> we removed it from partner for all releases... I guess we overlooked hardy because it was in the main archive, not in partner?
<slangasek> cjwatson: ^^ do we want to remove sun-java from the hardy release pocket?
<cjwatson> We've never regenerated a release pocket Packages so far
<cjwatson> In the past I've said we'd only do it given a CnD
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> any other action to take here, then?  I'm not sure it makes sense to worry about the missing replaces per se
<cjwatson> So, well, it's possible, but it would have to be a tremendously compelling reason
<xnox> do we have permission to continue to distribute sun-java though? I thought there was termination.
<cjwatson> xnox: Only for later versions
<xnox> ok
<infinity> We could fix the replaces, but really, pulling in Essential packages from a 4 year old release is sort of a "you get to keep both pieces" scenario.
<slangasek> agreed
<infinity> If we fix the replaces, would it completely disappear the old package?
<infinity> Cause that's vaguely elegant, at least.
<infinity> Or... Maybe that would be hilariously bad.
<bdmurray> well is there something better we can do to detect people in this scenario?
<infinity> It's pretty clearly unsupported-but-allowed use of the tools.  I dunno how much hand-holding we can do.
<slangasek> infinity: right - so what about detecting that this is what a user has done, so we can disregard the bug reports (or block them beforehand)?
<slangasek> I'm not interested in us spending effort making this work for users
<infinity> Disregarding is a bit harsh without feedback telling them why.
<slangasek> there are many bug reports that go disregarded
<infinity> And the effort spent on making fancy hooks for that sounds like more than just doing the replaces and papering over it.
<slangasek> so we think this is a one-off circumstance, and we won't see other bug reports?
<infinity> There are two dupes.
<infinity> Not sure how many others haven't been found.
<bdmurray> I'll try and search for more 3 isn't really a large quantity
<slangasek> by "other" I mean "other kinds of bugs caused by trying to travel back in time 4 years"
<infinity> Oh.
<slangasek> if it's going to be a general class of issue, better to suppress bug reporting
<infinity> Nothing that I've seen.  But bdmurray's the one who knows all. :P
<cjwatson> I can imagine some, but auto-installation of Essential seems like the hardest to avoid.
<slangasek> if we really think this is the only bug of its kind, then that's easily done
 * slangasek assigns the bug to infinity 
<infinity> Just what I always wanted.
<slangasek> bdmurray: others?
 * ogra_ has an errors.u.c question ... does that fit in this topic ?
<bdmurray> slangasek: nope
<slangasek> bdmurray: ok, thanks
<slangasek> ogra_: let's say yes
<ogra_> k
<ogra_> so if distros like mint supress updates and security fixes ... bugs will re-occur over and over on the list ...
<ogra_> can erros be taught to hide bugs once a newer version was uploaded ?
<ogra_> *errors
<ogra_> thats an ev question i guess ...
<ogra_> that came up recently in a discussion i had and i promised to ask here :(
<ogra_> err
<ogra_> :)
<slangasek> well, errors is meant to know if a crash occurs with the current package or only with the older ones... at one point the headline graph showed "# of crashes" vs. "# of crashes we'd have if people were up to date"?
<slangasek> and the current display shows the first and last known package versions for a crash
<slangasek> I think hiding the bugs entirely might be too much at this point, though, since there might be other reasons people aren't getting the update that are in our control?
<cjwatson> We also want to know about unexpected regressions
<ogra_> which wouldn happen with a newer version
<ogra_> *would
<cjwatson> And about whether lots of our users are seeing bugs because for some reason they aren't up to date; I think to some extent this is a different-audiences question
 * slangasek nods
<ogra_> k
<cjwatson> Many developers would only care about newest-version, but (say) release management might care about everything; I think I'd like to see it be controllable ...
<slangasek> ev: ^^ so what's the right answer for ogra_'s concern?  do we track these by sending you mail? :)
<bdmurray> I seem to recall a filter by release / distro feature coming to errors which may help
<ogra_> haha, sorry, i only channeled the question, i didnt mean to do anything evil to ev
<slangasek> well, I think it's a legitimate request for errors.u.c functionality
<infinity> I think ev died.
<ogra_> indeed, but i dont want him to drown in mail caused by mint users :)
<slangasek> oh, I wasn't suggesting having mint users email ev, I was suggesting *you* mail him ;P
<ogra_> oh, ok
<slangasek> anyway, ev seems idle, so best to take this offline from here
<ogra_> yeah, i can do that
<ogra_> right
<bdmurray> you can also report bugs a launchpad.net/errors
<slangasek> heh, namespace
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Python3 vsprint
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Python3 vsprint
<slangasek> hopefully everyone got the mail about the porting sprint next week
<slangasek> any questions about the plan there?
<slangasek> everyone know whether they're in an American or European timezone?
<infinity> Do I have to abandon my +1 minions to come be sprinty?
<infinity> (And I have no idea what timezone I'm in...)
<infinity> (ever)
<ogra_> cmon .... we know where to look that up !
<ogra_> just do a A1 test install, ubiquity will tell you !
<slangasek> infinity: yes - you can tell them you're "on call" available for those days if things come up?
<infinity> slangasek: Check.  Can do.
<infinity> ogra_: I do all my test installs on stgraber's server, that doesn't help.
<slangasek> hah
<ogra_> heh
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<ev> sorry, got pulled into a side conversation
<ev> I have AOB
<infinity> Not just OB?
<ev> and then I'm happy to loop back and talk with ogra_
<ev> infinity: :)
<ogra_> ev not urgent, we can do it another time
<ev> so pitti and I were talking about having references to the error tracker in uploads
<slangasek> infinity: he has Astounding Oratorial Bacon
<ev> much like we do with LP bugs
<infinity> That seems messy.
<cjwatson> I'm going to have to go to catch a bus, I'm afraid - need to leave sharp today
<infinity> Given that error reports should align with bugs anyway, no?
 * slangasek waves to cjwatson 
<ev> what do people think of a full SHA-1 hash of a crash signature (the things you see in the function column on errors.ubuntu.com) for this, or the first half of the SHA-1 hash
<bdmurray> I thought bugs were going to contain information about errors?
<slangasek> ev: wouldn't we want any error we care about fixing to have a corresponding bug report?
<ogra_> ++
 * infinity notes we all seem to be on the same page here. :P
<infinity> errors -> bug -> fix bug.
<infinity> Underpants, etc.
<slangasek> if nothing else, an error tracker ref doesn't give us anything to hang the developer's thoughts on
<xnox> statistically ev, you can trim it down to first 7 characters. But, I'd rather see lp: bug references only.
<ev> something needs to refer back to the error tracker
<infinity> ev: The bug can.
<xnox> ev: add errors as a bug tracker on launchpad.
<ogra_> and the bug cant ?
<cjwatson> We need a tool to promote error-tracker entries to bugs, I think
<xnox> ev: link to 'distributions errors.ubuntu.com' as a bug watch
<cjwatson> To make it easy and make it more likely that it's done in a vaguely standard way
<infinity> That would actually kinda work.
<infinity> (The external tracker link)
<infinity> But just a simple tag works too.
<ev> tag is probably easlier
<ev> easier even
<xnox> infinity: sha1 tag?
<xnox> or url tag?
<infinity> Don't care.  Just "a bug tag".
<infinity> errors:sha1 or something would work.
<ev> I just need to give that one some though, as I really don't want to involve a cron job on this
<slangasek> you want a separate bug tag for each error entry?
<slangasek> my understanding is that launchpad does not like scaling tags
 * cjwatson suggests checking with the LP team in case a bazillion different tags would cause some kind of problem
<ev> oh no, it wouldn't be lots of tags
<infinity> Oh, right, tags are actually hashed as keys.
<infinity> Nevermind.
<ev> it would be the needs-dupcheck tag
<ev> or whatever it is
<cjwatson> Right, gone
<ev> which would then cause the LP retracer to pick it up
<ev> but that adds the latency of waiting for the LP retracer
<ev> hmm
<ev> we could just have the errors.ubuntu.com backend create the bug when you click on a "create bug" link and immediately write it in to the bug field in the BucketMetadata column family
<ev> the "create bug" link only being present when one doesn't exist in the bug column
<slangasek> any other acl on that?
<ev> this would mean any linked bugs would be created by a bot
<ev> well, the standard canonical+bugsquad or whatever it is
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> sounds reasonable enough to me
<ev> okay, I'll confirm with martin and hopefully go with that
<ev> thanks
<slangasek> cool
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun  6 16:03:23 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-06-15.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-06-15.01.html
<slangasek> thanks all
<xnox> thanks
<barry> thanks
<ogra_> thanks
<ev> thanks
<infinity> \o
<stgraber> thanks
<jmarsden|work> #startmeeting Lubuntu Weekly Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun  6 20:03:33 2012 UTC.  The chair is jmarsden|work. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Weekly Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<jmarsden|work> o/
<phillw> o/
<will_> \o
<jmarsden|work> Only 3 people?  Hmmm. OK.
<jmarsden|work> OK, agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/IRC%20Meetings/Agenda as usual
<jmarsden|work> #topic actions items from last week
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Weekly Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  actions items from last week
<jmarsden|work> I don't think a meeting was held last week... if it was, I have not seen minutes...
<jmarsden|work> So, we'll assume there was no meeting last week.
<will_> I don't think there was one
<jmarsden|work> #topic lubuntu-qa co-ordinator needed
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Weekly Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  lubuntu-qa co-ordinator needed
<jmarsden|work> phillw, can you bring us up to date on this one?
<phillw> well, as wxl is here, he can let us know if he wants that role. As I stated, until a replacement is found I will continue in that task.
<wxl> i don't *WANT* it, but i will do it if no one takes it on
<wxl> honestly, i'd love to do it. i just find it hard to commit the time. my available time shrinks every day, i swear.
<phillw> that is a curse of QA, especially as release date gets closer.
<jmarsden|work> OK... then let's leave it with Phillw for now; phillw can you post something outlining what the role requires to the lubuntu mailing list, and we'll see if anyone else feels inspired to do it?
<wxl> can i just vote to keep you, phillw? ;)
<phillw> jmarsden|work: I've written up a critique
<jmarsden|work> Great, thanks.
<phillw> but, the job is more than just 'the job'... that is hard to put into writing,.
<phillw> I'll continue for 12.10 unless something unforseen happens, such as me getting a job in Singapore etc :)
<jmarsden|work> Understood... but we need something to try to explain it to potential volunteers, at least.  I wonder what the other flavours do wrt filling this role -- do they have descriptions of it we can use??
<phillw> but, I will put it to th eML. Having someone join now would be excellent
<jmarsden|work> OK, sounds settled for now then. Thanks!
<phillw> ermmm... what other flavours?
<jmarsden|work> QA for Kubuntum QA for Xubuntu, etc.
<phillw> the last QA guy I knew of (Xubuntu) resigned last cycle. They're struggling
<jmarsden|work> Ah!
<phillw> kubuntu is held by one of their devs.
<wxl> i DON'T want that to happen to us.
<phillw> he was, and now is sponsored
<wxl> so when you can't take it any more, i'll struggle with it in your absence, phillw.
<Unit193> Xubuntu has astraljava, IIRC.
<phillw> wxl: hence my remaining here. it is too important.
<phillw> Unit193: who are not doing A1's......
<wxl> yikes
<phillw> lost Mac & ppc last cycle.....
<wxl> :(
<will_> Is there a full QA team, and just looking for a coordinator?
<wxl> there are always qa members
<phillw> There is a full QA team, just someone to attend the meetings and liase across several teams.
<phillw> I'll write it up better & post it.
<wxl> i thought you did this already?
<phillw> that was a scribbled email to someone who already knows QA....
<wxl> ok
<jmarsden|work> Alright...
<jmarsden|work> #topic Alpha 1 Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Weekly Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Alpha 1 Status
<jmarsden|work> Quick update from me... I spoke with Julien
<phillw> shall I do the honours?
<jmarsden|work> OK... sure :)
 * skaet perks up and pays attention now.... ;)
 * stgraber looks
<phillw> The respins have been done again. a few 'major' bugs squished
<phillw> the call has gone out, as the A1 goes 'live' tomorrow. There do not seem to be any show-stopping bugs for an A1 release.
<jmarsden|work> Right.  Basically Lubuntu is on track and has an Alpha1, which we can now encourage lots of testers to test.
<phillw> one minor (ish :P) bug for ppc is there is no borwser
<phillw> *browser*
<jmarsden|work> But that's not ours to fix, really... and presumable all flavours have that same issue.
<wxl> yikes
<phillw> jmarsden|work: indeed, and it is fixable.
<phillw> hopefully before beta 1 :D
<jmarsden|work> chromium and firefox both do not currently build for PPC, is basically the problem... so it is fortheir teams to fix.
<jmarsden|work> OK...
<wxl> i need to make a proper install out of it. i kind of cheated my way to quantal. there seems to be a known bug with update-manager that seems to have been squished because i don't see the symptoms anymore.
<jmarsden|work> Basically, let's call get testing :)
<jmarsden|work> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Weekly Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<jmarsden|work> *let's all get testing
<jmarsden|work> ANyone have anything else we need to address today?
<phillw> skaet: is the current respin "THE" A1, or is there a chance of another respin?
<skaet> phillw,  we're likely to go with it,  but results still coming in...
<skaet> Have not spotted gilir on line,  could one of the members of the lubuntu community go in and update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/TechnicalOverview with the main changes that have occured,  and any significant bugs (I've added the browser one already).
<phillw> as in, when do you expect to say "this is it!"
<jmarsden|work> #action phillw to write up lubuntu-qa coordinator job description and ask for volunteers on lubuntu-users list
<meetingology> ACTION: phillw to write up lubuntu-qa coordinator job description and ask for volunteers on lubuntu-users list
<phillw> jmarsden|work: can you do that, as a dev?
<jmarsden|work> Yes.
<skaet> phillw,  tomorrow morning after I get the results from QA.  :)
<jmarsden|work> #action jmarsden to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/TechnicalOverview with the main changes that have occured,  and any significant bugs
<meetingology> ACTION: jmarsden to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/TechnicalOverview with the main changes that have occured,  and any significant bugs
<skaet> Thanks jmarsden :)
<wxl> i'd also say this is a great time to encourage new testers. the update to apport is niiiice.
<jmarsden|work> You're welcome.
<jmarsden|work> OK... I think we're done?
<phillw> jmarsden|work: as Julien is real busy, is there a chance you could re-start
<phillw> the weekly digest on the testing page, as we had for 12.04?
<phillw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<jmarsden|work> Maybe... I often don't know week by week what Julien has done... so it would be real work for me to do that.  I'll think about it.
<phillw> there is nothing for Q :(
<phillw> okies, I'll ask Julien if he can squeeze it back into his workload
<jmarsden|work> That would be better, I think, if he is willing
<jmarsden|work> OK... any other business?
<phillw> He may simply have forgotten about it :)
<jmarsden|work> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun  6 20:25:33 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-06-20.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-06-20.03.html
<jmarsden|work> OK, thanks everyone :)
<phillw> thanks for chairing jmarsden|work
<jmarsden|work> No problem... now I can go to a real world meeting here at work!
<wxl> thank you everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-06-07
<dholbach> o/
<beuno> o/
<czajkowski> o/
<Gwaihir> o/
<pleia2> o/
<dholbach> shall we start while we see if we have sabdfl and YokoZar today as well?
<dholbach> (we could still pass on the logs if they join later)
<czajkowski> nods
<beuno> yeap yeap
<dholbach> alrightie
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  7 17:03:03 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<dholbach> according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda we catch up with the Edubuntu Council today
<dholbach> do we have anybody from the Edubuntu Council here?
<dholbach> highvoltage, stgraber: are you around?
<highvoltage> hi dholbach
<dholbach> no alkisg, sbalneav or mgariepy here
<dholbach> hey highvoltage
<dholbach> #topic catch-up with the Edubuntu Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: catch-up with the Edubuntu Council
<dholbach> how are you doing?
<highvoltage> we spoke with pleia2 just a little earlier, the date kind of crept on us so we didn't have anything prepared
<dholbach> I think we can just chat, if you don't mind - personally I didn't expect a huge team report :)
<highvoltage> dholbach: doing good. the project is doing ok, from a technical perspective 12.04 was a great release for us
<dholbach> that's great to hear :)
<dholbach> I remember your presentation from UDS - did you get feedback from Edubuntu contributors or possible future contributors? :)
<highvoltage> we've been extending the edubuntu community a bit too with active contributors. something that's really hard.
<highvoltage> yes, we have 2 people from zentyal doing some work for edubuntu server
<dholbach> nice
<czajkowski> highvoltage: great stuff!
<highvoltage> specifically, they're doing integration between zentyal and schooltool
<highvoltage> so if you create a user in schooltool, they'll be able to log in on a service that authenticates against the samba4 domain set up on there
<highvoltage> it will be very nice
<dholbach> wow, that sounds like advanced rocket science
<highvoltage> we have some collaboration with the kubuntu folks too, on the zatab that we'd like to support: http://zareason.com/shop/zatab.html
<pleia2> great
<highvoltage> except we're going with unity instead of plasma active. they're at least doing a lot of the heavy lifting for us
<highvoltage> we have around a dozen interview lined up for the website to showcase what schools and organisations are doing with edubuntu
<highvoltage> currently it's a bit on hold since we're upgrading the website to drupal 7
<dholbach> wow, nice - that will hopefully bring in another bunch of new contributors
<dholbach> In which areas of Edubuntu do you feel are contributors mostly interested in working on?
<highvoltage> so the current drupal 6 instance is frozen until version 7 goes live (we were originally hoping for this week, but it will probably be up next week instead)
<highvoltage> dholbach: it varies greatly from person to person. on average, currently, in edubuntu... I'd say it's LTSP. which doesn't really have anything to do with education specifically
<highvoltage> (but it just happens to be that way)
<highvoltage> on that note though, there's some nice school features being worked on by alkis
<highvoltage> we have lots of request for things like an imaging solution for classrooms (like fog, clonezilla, etc)
<highvoltage> so alkisg is working on getting something like that built right into ltsp.
<highvoltage> our long-term aim for 14.04 is having a complete school solution, technology wise. Thin clients, work stations, tablets and servers.
<highvoltage> take an Edubuntu DVD and set up your entire infrastructure
<highvoltage> on the server side we'll be using LXC to containerize everything
<dholbach> sweet :)
<highvoltage> one day we'll be able to tackle content and educational specific stuff better
<highvoltage> but for now we want to make the entire technology layer really simple and easy to use
<dholbach> I remember when we last talked, you mentioned that the Edubuntu Council did not have too much to do governance-wise. Is this still the case? Did you get to approve a few Edubuntu members since last time?
<highvoltage> we re-approved ogra_, who just expired before and we didn't notice. besides that, the Edubuntu Council doesn't have much work.
<highvoltage> the goals and plans for 14.04 is something I'd like documented and put together in some form of a document
<highvoltage> almost like xubuntu did with their strategy document
<highvoltage> so the EC will have some work to do soon, at least
<dholbach> that sounds good - if there's a coherent vision, that might also attract new people
<dholbach> czajkowski, pleia2, beuno, Gwaihir: do you have any more questions?
<highvoltage> most of the Edubuntu work actually happens through the edubuntu-dev group. it's pretty much the same people but I like to make the destiction
<highvoltage> *destinction
<pleia2> no, I'm good
<highvoltage> dholbach: we get a *lot* of feedback from the edubuntu contact form on the website
<highvoltage> (around 5-10 emails a week)
<dholbach> wow, is it contributors? folks interested in using Edubuntu?
<highvoltage> we want to figure out how to get those people involved. I have a bunch of tags labeled for them in my inbox and I hope that we could get them to do some work too and eventually get them to be edubuntu members
<dholbach> you could try to invite them to public hangouts
<highvoltage> dholbach: it's a big mixed back of people using edubuntu already, educators, people who want to sell edubuntu DVDs in their country, random support questions, people who wrote a howto or blog entry...
<dholbach> (as mailing lists are not for everybody)
<highvoltage> yes! hangouts is definitely something I want to try
<dholbach> cool
<dholbach> is there anything the CC could do for you?
 * beuno is impresses
<beuno> *impressed
 * dholbach too
<highvoltage> I wish I had more time to think about that :)
 * highvoltage can't say no to someone offering any kind of help to the Edubuntu project
<beuno> highvoltage, door is always open
<dholbach> just get back to us if you come up with something :)
<beuno> take it as an invitation to email us back!
<dholbach> :-)
<highvoltage> actually there is one thing, but we need to discuss it internally first. expect some email from us :)
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> if beuno, Gwaihir and czajkowski don't have any more questions, I'd like to thank highvoltage
<dholbach> keep up the good work and keep the world informed of new stuff in Edubuntu land
<Gwaihir> I'm good
<dholbach> are the Edubuntu news on Planet?
<highvoltage> thanks!
<highvoltage> yep
<dholbach> awesome
 * dholbach hugs highvoltage
<dholbach> thanks again :)
<highvoltage> I want to do more regular reports on what's happening
<dholbach> great
<highvoltage> if it's been too long since a last update, anyone is free to poke me any time about that
<highvoltage> (well, at least once the new site is up)
<dholbach> :-)
<highvoltage> dholbach: *hug*
<dholbach> alright, let's move on then :)
<dholbach> we have the following item on our agenda: JC Hulce -- Defining support -- TBD
<dholbach> is anybody here to discuss it?
<pleia2> we might want to drop them an email to see if they are interested in coming to our next meeting
<dholbach> yes, that might make sense - do we have contact details?
<dholbach> yes, we do
<pleia2> yeah
<dholbach> #action dholbach to mail ~soaringsky about Defining support
<meetingology> ACTION: dholbach to mail ~soaringsky about Defining support
<dholbach> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<dholbach> Does anybody have any other business?
<dholbach> in terms of our TODO, I'll take another action
<dholbach> #action dholbach to talk to sabdfl about the CoC update
<meetingology> ACTION: dholbach to talk to sabdfl about the CoC update
<dholbach> (we still have some modifications to squeeze in since UDS)
 * pleia2 nods
<pleia2> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> anything else which is currently stuck or needs to be discussed?
<Gwaihir> nothing that comes to my mind
<beuno> nope
<dholbach> ok, then we just need to figure out who wants to do the minutes/wiki dance :)
<dholbach> I'd appreciate if somebody else could do it - if I do it, it'll at least take until the next CC meeting
 * beuno is jumping off to a pair-programming session
<dholbach> ok, shall we do it collaboratively in a pad after the meeting?
<Gwaihir> dholbach, sounds better
<dholbach> ok, great
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone
<pleia2> can someone email the forums council to remind them of the next meeting?
<dholbach> ah, good point
<Gwaihir> I can do that
<pleia2> thanks Gwaihir
<dholbach> #action Gwaihir to mail Forums Council about next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: Gwaihir to mail Forums Council about next meeting
<dholbach> thanks a bunch
<dholbach> alrightie - have a great rest of your day
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  7 17:29:24 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-07-17.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-06-07-17.03.html
<Gwaihir> thanks everyone! thanks dholbach!
<Iowan> FC meeting is on the 20'th: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-03
<bdrung> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<bdrung> reminder: meeting in one hour
<Laney> hahaha
<Laney> thanks â¥
<tumbleweed> we haven't fixed our calendar yet?
<Laney> looks right to me
<tumbleweed> it says we're having one now
<tumbleweed> oh, no that's the one in my calendar
<tumbleweed> grr
 * tumbleweed re-copies to my calendar
<bdrung> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<mfisch> morning
<Laney> O HAI
<Laney> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  3 15:01:16 2013 UTC.  The chair is Laney. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
 * stgraber waves
<tumbleweed> o/
<mitya57> evening
<mfisch> morning
<mitya57> :)
 * Laney waits for one more dmber to come out of the woodwork
<Laney> oh, I guess bdrung already did
<Laney> ok
<Laney> someone remind me if the previous action items is current please
 * barry waves
<bdrung> o/
<bdrung> we are quorate
<Laney> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<Laney> ok, since nobody wants to tell me :P
<Laney> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<bdrung> Laney: yes, i did write a short summary. so this action item is done.
<Laney> #subtopic bdrung to write up a short summary of sweetshark's recent sponsorship
<Laney> ^
<Laney> #subtopic barry to conduct sweetshark ppu vote on ubuntu-dmb list
<Laney> done also
<Laney> barry: did you send feedback on the outcome?
<barry> Laney: i did not, but i will do that
<Laney> merci
<Laney> #action barry to send outcome of sweetshark ppu vote
<meetingology> ACTION: barry to send outcome of sweetshark ppu vote
<Laney> #subtopic all: review separation of ppu from membership
<Laney> You probably saw that I sent this to the list and put it on http://pad.ubuntu.com/dmb-ppu-membership-proposal
<stgraber> I saw it, I even think I read it, but I don't remember it and forgot to comment, so I guess I'll have to go through it again... sorry
<Laney> please make some time to consider it and the questions I posed there
<Laney> I'd like to get it voted on at the next meeting
<Laney> the main thing is that I find the discinction between PPU with and without membership and packagesets to be confusing
<Laney> so I'd appreciate everyone thinking about how that should look
<Laney> #action everyone read and amend http://pad.ubuntu.com/dmb-ppu-membership-proposal, and sign up for the implementation tasks
<meetingology> ACTION: everyone read and amend http://pad.ubuntu.com/dmb-ppu-membership-proposal, and sign up for the implementation tasks
<Laney> #topic Adjusting dynamic PPU to make being a DD and an Ubuntu Developer of any kind the prerequisite, instead of PPU.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Adjusting dynamic PPU to make being a DD and an Ubuntu Developer of any kind the prerequisite, instead of PPU.
 * Laney finds the mail
<barry> Laney: i vaguely recall responding to that particular issue ;)
<Laney> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2013-May/000483.html
<Laney> barry: you did!
<Laney> so this is an issue that the DD-PPU thing we approved a while back is maybe too restrictive
<Laney> it says that people have to be PPU already, but it seems eminently sensible to me that it should just be updated to say that you must be an Ubuntu Developer of any kind
<Laney> yes?
<tumbleweed> +1
<micahg-work> +1
<bdrung> +1
<barry> +1
<stgraber> I believe we already abused that part of the process in the past, can't remember the specific case, but I do remember us granting extra upload rights to a non-PPU member who was in ubuntu-dev for other reasons
<stgraber> so yeah, +1
<micahg-work> there are already safeguards in the document about expanding permissions, so I think we're good in that regard
<Laney> ok
<micahg-work> hrm
<micahg-work> Uploading Ubuntu Developer
<Laney> #action laney to update DD-PPU process to say that any ubuntu-dev is eligible
<meetingology> ACTION: laney to update DD-PPU process to say that any ubuntu-dev is eligible
<micahg-work> we can still special case non-uploading if we'd want, but I'd rather have the doc say uploading
<micahg-work> or something to that extent
<Laney> I'll let you know when I've changed it so you can review
<Laney> let's do some applications
 * Laney checks who was first
<Laney> ok, that's ...
<bdrung> Laney: could the dynamic-ppu-procedure moved to a wiki page (to be more prominent)?
<Laney> bdrung: it is already
<Laney> that's just the "law", but the end-user part is on ApplicationProcess iirc
<bdrung> Laney: where?
<Laney> moving on
<Laney> #topic MOTU Application - Matt Fischer
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU Application - Matt Fischer
 * mfisch waves
<Laney> hi mfisch!
<Laney> care to give us a quick introduction?
<mfisch> Sure
<mfisch> My name is Matt Fischer, I've been working on Ubuntu now for about 18 months in my free time
<mfisch> My day job is at Canonical, where we work on contracted work for Ubuntu
<mfisch> like Ubuntu for Android
<mfisch> but most of my contribs are in my free time
<mfisch> I mainly work on desktop packages
<mfisch> since I'm most familiar with them
<mfisch> I didn't review what other intros were, so I'm out of stuff to say, but I can answer questions ;)
<Laney> seems fine :P
<Laney> how comfortable would you say you are with ubuntu development (packaging and process) at this point?
<Laney> and/or do you know how & where to get help if you need it?
<mfisch> I'm very comfortable with packaging, that is what I do lots of in my free time and my work time. I am also comfortable with process
<mfisch> I usually work with a mentor (Robert Ancell) or get help from #ubuntu-desktop on desktop stuff
<mfisch> more general stuff, I go to #ubuntu-motu
<mfisch> As for updates and syncs, I'm familiar with the old way (debdiff), the UDD way, and the Ubuntu Desktop way
<Laney> so as you said, you like to work on desktop stuff - will you be applying to join the ubuntu desktop team any time soon? :-)
<Laney> MOTU doesn't let you upload a lot of that stuff so you might still need quite a bit of sponsorship
<mfisch> Laney: yes, I will be applying
<mfisch> I've spoken to seb about it
<mfisch> my work tends to be bursty, as I have kids and time is scarce some evenings, but I
<micahg-work> mfisch, do you have an interest in general universe packages, I see you're mostly doing desktop + gnome
<Laney> yeah I see on http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=*&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=Matthew+Fischer&sponsoree_search=name  that he's sponsored you a bit
<mfisch> sorry, I'm trying to work on more desktop stuffd
 * Laney hands the floor over
<mfisch> micahg-work: yes, but desktop has been a focus because its been easy for me to work with people there
<mfisch> I have a new universe package and one more on the way from debian
<mfisch> (dateutils)
<mfisch> and ubuntu-accomps and friends are universe I think
<barry> mfisch: just to follow that thread a bit, do you think motu will actually be useful for you right now, assuming you do join the desktop team?  i mean, would desktop + ppu on a handful of additional packages be enough?
<mfisch> barry: thinking, one sec
<mfisch> barry: Its true that I've not done many MOTU updates recently, but I still think it would be useful to me. However, my ultimate goal is probably Ubuntu desktop
<mfisch> I saw MOTU as part of the path to that
<barry> mfisch: i don't mean to be discouraging in any way, i'm just trying to tease out what your goals are
<mfisch> barry: Eventually I'd like both. My plan was to apply for desktop in a couple months
<mfisch> barry: Is experience in desktop packages not applicable for motu?
<Laney> we certainly want people who want to help out with universe
<barry> mfisch: oh, i do think it is definitely.  i'm just curious mostly as to why you chose the path you did (emphatically *not* implying you did anything wrong or out of order)
<mfisch> Ideally these rights can help me at my day job, but mainly I enjoy contributing
<barry> mfisch: thanks.  i yield the floor to bdrung
<bdrung> mfisch: do you collaborate with Debian developers?
<mfisch> bdrung: yes, I've been working with a mentor there to do some new packaging
<mfisch> bdrung: I could certainly do more
<Laney> the gnome team is cool ;-)
<Laney> (if you like svn)
<Laney> (hahaha)
<tumbleweed> if you like svn, join the python teams too :P
<bdrung> mfisch: it's good to see new packages come through Debian.  do you plan do join the Debian gnome team?
<bdrung> besides svn, it's a pleasure to work with them. :)
<barry> tumbleweed: well, maybe s/like/tolerate/ :)
<mfisch> bdrung: to be honest I've not thought about it. I probably should
<mfisch> I've used svn before, it's not that bad ;)
<Laney> especially now that we're more synced on GNOME versions there are more opportunities to collaborate with them
<mfisch> coming from Clearcase it was refreshing
<mfisch> being synced is a big win
<bdrung> it reduces maintenance overhead when the package can be kept in sync.
<mfisch> yes, and makes our lives easier
 * bdrung yield the floor for stgraber.
<mfisch> and the users lives really
<stgraber> mfisch: One quick (possibly tricky) question for you. So, let's say we are on the 16th of July and you wish to upload a new version of seahorse. Should you just go ahead and do it or is there a reason why you should refrain?
<bdrung> mfisch: i encourage you to get more involved in Debian (and to try to reduce diffs)! :)
<mfisch> stgraber: hmm, I'd check the release schedule first
<mfisch> looks like a2 is on July 18 (I dont have the schedule memorized), so maybe wait until July 19?
<mfisch> or not at all, depending on the changes
<mfisch> or better yet, discuss it in #ubuntu-desktop
<mfisch> bdrung: I think thats a good idea
<stgraber> mfisch: right, July 16th is during alpha2. Now, how would you know whether the package will impact anything that's part of that milestone?
<mfisch> stgraber: I'm not sure if I fully understand your question, but I know what seahorse does and how it's used and can gauge the impact of a change from that
<mfisch> you can gauge some impact by looking at dependencies if thats what you are asking
<stgraber> mfisch: so those early milestones are opt-in, which means that depending on who participates in it, you may be clear to upload.
<stgraber> mfisch: I was wondering how you'd check who's participating in the milestone and how to check whether the package is on their image
<mfisch> stgraber: I don't know a good way to check that actually
<mfisch> an easy way I mean
<stgraber> ok. The tool is seeded-in-ubuntu
<stgraber> seahorse (from seahorse) is seeded in:
<stgraber>   edubuntu: dvd
<stgraber>   ubuntu-gnome: daily-live
<stgraber>   ubuntu: daily-live, daily-preinstalled
<stgraber>   ubuntukylin: daily-live
<stgraber> the above output shows you that you'd be fine to upload if none of those flavours take part in the milestone
<stgraber> otherwise, you should get in touch with the appropriate flavour leads or just through #ubuntu-release
<mfisch> yeah
<mfisch> I was just looking at that
<mfisch> seeded-in-ubuntu seahorse
<mfisch> I figured ubuntu-dev-tools would have a useful solution
<stgraber> note that we now tend to add britney (proposed-migration) blocks to prevent most packages from moving from -proposed to -release, so it's likely that the upload wouldn't affect anything, however it's always better to just wait before uploading :)
<stgraber> Laney: I'm done
<Laney> merci!
<Laney> #vote should mfisch join ~motu?
<meetingology> Please vote on: should mfisch join ~motu?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<Laney> tumbleweed: ?
<tumbleweed> +1 [ I'd really have prefered to see more endorsements but I have a fair confidence in mfisch from IRC interaction ]
<meetingology> +1 [ I'd really have prefered to see more endorsements but I have a fair confidence in mfisch from IRC interaction ] received from tumbleweed
<micahg-work> +1 [very impressed with no FTBFS on uploads, would have liked more endorsements as well]
<meetingology> +1 [very impressed with no FTBFS on uploads, would have liked more endorsements as well] received from micahg-work
<Laney> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: should mfisch join ~motu?
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Laney> mfisch: congrats, welcome to MOTU :-)
<mfisch> thanks, next time I'll get more endorsements!
<Laney> look forward to seeing you on #-motu
<stgraber> mfisch: congrats!
<Laney> for desktop you don't have to come back to us anyway :P
<Laney> moving on
<mfisch> hah, true
<Laney> #topic MOTU application - Dmitry Shachnev
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU application - Dmitry Shachnev
<mitya57> o/
<Laney> mitya57: it's a you
<Laney> can you give us a quick introduction?
<mitya57> All of you should already know me (and, in fact, have sponsored something for me :P)
<mitya57> So I'll start with what I achieved recently (i.e. in spring)
<Laney> for the historical record, if nothing else :-)
<mitya57> Well, one line ftr: I'm student of Moscow University, upstream for some python apps like ReText and interested in various random packages in Debuntu
<mitya57> (continuing copy-pasting now)
<mitya57> In this spring I did:
<mitya57> - lots of python packages updates (docutils/sphinx, nose, pyxdg)
<mitya57> - helped with preparing qt5 (mostly qtbase and qttranslations)
<mitya57> - broke qt4 and fixed it
<mitya57> - new mathjax 2.2 and woff-tools
<mitya57> - ubuntu-packaging-guide updates
<mitya57> - helped with (breaking the archive by) uploading the new poppler
<mitya57> My short-term plans include:
<mitya57> - major python-keyring update, with switching to secretstorage for secret-service backend and pygi for gnomekeyring backend
<mitya57> - fixing the broken texlive in precise
<mitya57> - finishing pyqt5 packaging
<mitya57> - maybe some qt merges
<mitya57> ^D
<stgraber> thanks for the introduction
<stgraber> I'll start with a quick question because I've got to leave for another meeting in 5min, will keep reading this one though so should be able to vote (but not interact much)
<stgraber> So similar question to that I asked mfisch earlier on. Let's say we are on the 16th of July and you wish to upload a new version of vlc. Should you just go ahead and do it or is there a reason why you should refrain?
 * mitya57 checks the schedule
 * mitya57 checks seeded-in-ubuntu vlc
<mitya57> it's mythbuntu only, so if the RT sets proper britney hints, I'll go ahead
<tumbleweed> somebody's been paying attention...
<stgraber> mitya57: haha, you went right into the trap ;)
<mitya57> (well, I am not interested in vlc, but if I were I would start by talking with bdrung)
<stgraber> mitya57: it's correct that it's only seeded by mythbuntu, however do you know how often mythbuntu is actually released?
<mitya57> I think one can't predict which flavors will participate in which milestone
<stgraber> you can for mythbuntu ;)
<mitya57> bad /me
<mitya57> I now remember that it has only LTS releases...
<stgraber> correct :)
<stgraber> so a package seeded only by mythbuntu is always fine to upload during a non-LTS cycle
<mitya57> yeah
<Laney> anyone else?
<micahg-work> o/
<Laney> go
<micahg-work> mitya57, so, you mention that there are issues with collaboration with upstreams, do you have any proposals on what MOTU could do to improve on this?
<mitya57> that was mostly related to gnome, which is for desktop team, not for motu...
<mitya57> but Ubuntu GNOME devs (jbicha & darkxst) have been doing nice work with collaborating recently
<mitya57> Myself I'm planning to contribute to https://live.gnome.org/GnomeFlashback packaging
<mitya57> (some bits already done like recent metacity upload with my patch)
<Laney> I imagine the GNOME situation will calm itself down as Ubuntu moves on more
<mitya57> let's hope
<mitya57> But I think our recent decision to ship 3.6 in R and 3.8 in S was a step back
<Laney> in terms of finding bugs early?
<mitya57> In terms of collaborating, and finding bugs too
<Laney> ah, well as I mentioned earlier it does mean that we can collaborate with the Debian GNOME team more
<Laney> so that's an upside from my pov
<mitya57> that's a definite upside, yes
<micahg-work> mitya57, are you involved with Ubuntu GNOME?
<mitya57> micahg-work: not so much
<mitya57> (but I use GNOME, not Unity)
<mitya57> and sometimes fix bugs when I find them
<linuxCool> x
<linuxCool> hello to all
<linuxCool> when will be start     Ubuntu Security?
<micahg-work> linuxCool, 20 minutes (we're still in the DMB meeting)
<Laney> anyone else?
<demonoid_me> aaa ok sorry :)
<bdrung> mitya57: are you involved in the Debian GNOME team?
 * Laney takes that as a no
<Laney> blast
<mitya57> bdrung: already asked by micahg-work (in short: no)
<bdrung> he asked for the Ubuntu team.
<bdrung> i recommend to get more involved in the GNOME teams, as you already collaborate nicely with Debian.
<mitya57> bdrung: also no more than sending some patches
<mitya57> In Debian, I'm member of two python teams, javascript team and fonts team
<Laney> thanks
<Laney> & now we will vote!
<Laney> #vote should mitya57 join ~motu?
<meetingology> Please vote on: should mitya57 join ~motu?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Laney> +1 yay
<meetingology> +1 yay received from Laney
<barry> +1 happily
<meetingology> +1 happily received from barry
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<micahg-work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg-work
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<Laney> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: should mitya57 join ~motu?
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Laney> congrats!
<mitya57> Thanks! \o/
<Laney> #action laney to add mfisch and mitya57 to motu
<dholbach> congratulations mitya57!
<meetingology> ACTION: laney to add mfisch and mitya57 to motu
<Laney> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<mitya57> hi dholbach, and thank you!
<Laney> can someone reply to Daniel Pocock on devel-permissions please?
<bdrung> mitya57: congrats. one question: do you want to join the ubuntu sponsors team?
<mitya57> bdrung: yes, I want :)
<bdrung> nice :)
<Laney> aaaaaanyone?
<bdrung> Laney: i can do that if no-one else will want it
<Laney> doesn't seem like anyone is scrambling
<Laney> thanks
<Laney> #action bdrung to reply to Daniel Pocock on devel-permissions
<meetingology> ACTION: bdrung to reply to Daniel Pocock on devel-permissions
<Laney> be nice :P
<bdrung> i will point to my language barrier if i am not :p
<Laney> wiki says next chair is ScottK
<Laney> anything else?
 * barry must have missed daniel's message :/
<tumbleweed> hrm, daniel has 0 uploads in Ubuntu
<tumbleweed> that makes the reply fairly easy
<Laney> right
<bdrung> barry: sent today a few hours ago
<Laney> but if all of his stuff is in sync and in great condition, ...
<Laney> anyway
<Laney> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  3 16:21:51 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-03-15.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-03-15.01.html
<tumbleweed> Laney: then he doesn't need upload rights :P
<barry> Laney: thanks!
<mdeslaur> \o
<sarnold> o/
<tyhicks> hello
 * sbeattie waves
<jjohansen> \o
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  3 16:33:08 2013 UTC.  The chair is mdeslaur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: wake up
<chrisccoulson> hi :)
<mdeslaur> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<mdeslaur> Thanks to Christian Kuersteiner (ckuerste) who provided debdiffs for precise-raring for xmp (LP: #1182769)
<mdeslaur> Thanks to Christian Kuersteiner (ckuerste) who provided debdiffs for quantal for tomcat6 (LP: #1166649)
<mdeslaur> Thanks to Thomas Ward (teward) who provided debdiffs for precise-raring for nginx (LP: #1182586)
<mdeslaur> Thanks to Rohan Garg (rohangarg) who provided debdiffs for precise-raring for kde4libs (LP: #1178286)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1182769 in xmp (Ubuntu) "Buffer Overflow in MASI loader" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1182769
<mdeslaur> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1166649 in tomcat6 (Ubuntu Saucy) "Multiple open vulnerabilities in tomcat6 in quantal" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1166649
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1182586 in nginx (Ubuntu Raring) "CVE-2013-2070: nginx proxy_pass buffer overflow vulnerability" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1182586
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1178286 in kdelibs "Security advisory from KDE upstream" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1178286
 * mdeslaur slaps ubotty
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<mdeslaur> I'll go first
<mdeslaur> I'll be testing the zillion X updates this week
<mdeslaur> and that's about it
<mdeslaur> I'm on community too
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm focusing on apparmor stuff again this week
<sbeattie> Specifically https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-s-appisolation-sdk
<sbeattie> I'm currently hacking on the aa-easyprof bits
<sbeattie> that's pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm working on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/security-s-appisolation-dbus
<tyhicks> This week, I plan on having all of the work items done except for the items related to pushing everything to the archive
<tyhicks> There's also some minor cleanup and finishing touch type stuff that I'll end up doing to the dbus and apparmor patches
<tyhicks> That's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I'm focused on apparmor stuff as well
<jjohansen> I'm still poking around for the correct bp so I'll just skip pasting that and say, its the continuation of the ipc work
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: I have "signals and bits for IPC" and "extended conditionals" in last weeks meeting log
<mdeslaur> jjohansen: is it a continuation of that?
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: yep
<mdeslaur> cool
<jjohansen> that and I'll get the latest patchset out for more review
<jjohansen> sarnold: your up
<sarnold> I'm on triage on this week
<sarnold> I'll also be poking at trying to unbreak the boucycastle test suite, or steal portions of it, for QRT
<mdeslaur> sarnold: what's the status of your openssl updates?
<sarnold> I'm not sure why I've been met with such failure trying to use the test suite, but I presume it's partly my fault for not 100% grokking modern java
<sarnold> mdeslaur: at least saucy will need re-doing, I think there's a new version pushed into the archive in the meantime; I also need to ask your help in preparing updates for security-proposed or something to get testers first..
<sarnold> .. at least, I think I'd really rather have feedback from users before pushing it to everyone
<sarnold> granted, fedora's been using it for a few months, but perhaps their knowledge of hwat broke isn't logged in their bug report. :)
<mdeslaur> sarnold: is it in the PPA yet?
<sarnold> mdeslaur: no
<mdeslaur> sarnold: ok, please create a tracking bug, and make sure the bug # is in the changelog before uploading
<sarnold> mdeslaur: okay
<mdeslaur> sarnold: so people know where to go if there's an issue in -proposed
<sarnold> mdeslaur: do I then just upload to the usual ppa once that's done?
<mdeslaur> sarnold: yes, as -security, and then we'll get an AA to pocket-copy it to -proposed
<mdeslaur> (perhaps I can already do that, need to check)
<sarnold> mdeslaur: cool, thanks :)
<mdeslaur> sarnold: you done?
<sarnold> mdeslaur: how much time do you think I should spend on trying to revive the bouncy castle tests before writing a handful of much less comprehensive tests myself?
<mdeslaur> sarnold: half a day?
 * mdeslaur shrugs
<sarnold> mdeslaur: cool, thanks. now done :)
<sarnold> chrisccoulson: you're up :)
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: dude, wake up
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: he's gotta finish his beer first.
<mdeslaur> ok, I'll mark down "web-y browser thingies"
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<mdeslaur> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/bip.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/openswan.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/exif.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ibm-3270.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/php-mail.html
<chrisccoulson> oops, sorry, was just finishing up dinner ;)
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: hrm, sorry about the meeting being so late for you
<chrisccoulson> that's ok
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: maybe we should get you to go first next time
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: what are you working on this week?
<chrisccoulson> this week, i'm still working on client-1303-webkit-maintenance. i've been fleshing out architecture diagrams for the last few days. hopefully they'll be in a good enough state for me to make public on google docs this week
<mdeslaur> cool
<chrisccoulson> and then we'll have a good idea of what work needs to happen :)
<mdeslaur> awesome
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: done?
<chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, yeah. there aren't any updates planned this week :)
<mdeslaur> oh, good
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Thanks everyone!
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  3 16:53:17 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-03-16.33.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-03-16.33.html
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks mdeslaur :)
<jjohansen> thank mdeslaur
<tyhicks> thanks!
<demonoid_me> I wanna create ubuntu LoCo Team but for my country !how can i do thath?
<genii> demonoid_me: #ubuntu-locoteams is probably the better place to enquire
<demonoid_me> genii: 10x :)
<genii> np
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-04
<smoser> o/
<smoser> gah.
<hallyn> o/
<hallyn> ?
 * smoser gets to chair. 
<hallyn> \o/
<arosales> hello
<smoser> ok. lets start
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  4 16:01:38 2013 UTC.  The chair is smoser. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<adam_g> o/
<arosales> smoser, I ~still~ need to contact norvald
<arosales> :-/
<arosales> sorry
<arosales> I _will_ send an email today
<smoser> ACTION: carried foward.     (carried forward)
<smoser> #ACTION arosales [carried forward] to follow up with Norvald regarding SRU
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales [carried forward] to follow up with Norvald regarding SRU
<smoser> there.
 * smoser thanks arosales for the cut and paste commands at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting/IRCCommands
<hallyn> +1
<smoser> #topic Raring Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Raring Development
<smoser> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
<smoser> hm..
<smoser> where is our url for pretty graphs like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
<smoser> gah
<smoser> like
<roaksoax> o/
<smoser>  http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/
<smb> Sounds a tad outdated?
<arosales> I just updated them, I think another kind person originally made it.
<arosales> smoser, I think I need to make a topic url
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule
<arosales> sorry a topic blueprint
<smoser> can i action you for that ?
<arosales> #action arosales create a overview topic bp for servercloud
<meetingology> ACTION: arosales create a overview topic bp for servercloud
<smoser> good.
 * arosales think I also volunteered for that last week, running behind on my todos :-(
<smoser> #subtopic Release Bugs
<smoser> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<smoser> i dont know how relevant that url is at this point in the cycle.
<smoser> (in addition to the fact that i posted a -r- url again)
<smoser> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-s-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<smoser> #topic Blueprints
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Blueprints
<smoser> we need some help from here from arosales, so next week we'll have a pretty graph.
 * arosales will work on that _today_
<smoser> ok. so 2 things here.
<smoser> a.) if you have expected work for 13.04 that is not covered by a blueprint starting with 'servercloud-s-' at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~davewalker/+specs?role=approver
<smoser>   then please contact myself or jamespage to help you get on that list.
<smoser> b.) if you have something on that list in some state other than 'Approved', then you should make some effort to change that.
<smoser>  (smoser looks in a mirror and says "I'm talking to you")
<smoser> other blueprints in such a state are:
<smoser> servercloud-s-cloud-kvm-on-arm: hallyn
<smoser> servercloud-s-enterprise-testing: jamespage
<smoser> servercloud-s-fastpath-install: smoser
 * hallyn not sure what that means. 
<smoser> servercloud-s-interlock: Daviey
<smoser> servercloud-s-maas-next-steps: roaksoax
<smoser> servercloud-s-openstack-hypervisor: zul
<smoser> servercloud-s-openstack-pkg: zul
<hallyn> smoser: can you please drop servercloud-s-cloud-kvm-on-arm ?
<smoser> one other one for zul and one for smoser.
<hallyn> or cani do that, hm
<zul> can you drop servercloud-s-oepnstack-pkg: its going to be folded into the main openstck blueprint
<smoser> hm..
<smoser> ok. we'll figure out what to do on those.
<hallyn> thx
<hallyn> i marked it deferred for now.
<smoser> just put both of them as 'definition: obsolete'
<smoser> zul, ^
<hallyn> ok
<zul> ok cool
<smoser> anyone have anything else here?
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> anyone have events coming up ?
<smoser> ok. i dont. so moving on.
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
<psivaa> i am in for plars today
<psivaa> nothing much from our side
<smoser> anyone have questions for psivaa ?
<smoser> k. moving on. thanks for coming p
<smoser> k. moving on. thanks for coming psivaa
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> No kernel specific things to report (some user-space issues, though). Maybe I should remind anybody having kernel problems which I should (or am supposed to) be looking at, to remind me (again) if I have not been active on reports. Are there questions?
<smb> smoser, And I likely will try to talk to you about Xen stable (micro) updates and tech-board at some point later...
<smb> ...
<smoser> i dont have anything for you, smb.
<smoser> sometime, sooner than later, daviey or i or someone needs to look at "medium" sized kernel for server
<hallyn> smb: do you know if there are any overlayfs work items for kernel?
<smoser> (ie, one block net and other important-to-server modules, but not "desktop" like drivers)
<smb> hallyn, I thought apw was doing something
<hallyn> (there are some (well at least one) open bugs, wondering if fixing them is going to be actively done, or passively waited for)
<hallyn> if anyone was i assumed it was him :)
<hallyn> just wondering, i can looka round later
<smoser> hallyn, you have a list of said bugs ? it would be good to have them collected if nothing else.
<smoser> i'd be interested in seeing it.
 * smoser has been bit by no inotify support
<smoser> bug 882147
<ubottu> bug 882147 in coreutils (Ubuntu) "overlayfs does not implement inotify interfaces correctly" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/882147
<smb> smoser, The medium size package thing, you probably may be successful in replacing current virtual, but there was not much rejoice for having yet another type
<hallyn> no not really. and i just deleted the emails
<smoser> good thinking on deleting stuff, hallyn :)
<smb> never leave paper trail. :)
<smoser> smoser, on medium sized, the goal woudl be replace -virtual, but i could see me asking for small medium an large for 13.10, one of which to be dropped for 14.04
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<smoser> rbasak, howdy
<rbasak> Hi
<rbasak> Nothing to report. Any questions for me?
<rbasak> I'm looking at a golang FTBFS that affects saucy but not sid
<smoser> nice.
<rbasak> That's about all in the ARM world right now.
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
<hallyn> smoser: smb: bug 1098378
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<ubottu> bug 1098378 in linux (Ubuntu Raring) "chroot+overlayfs seems to cause umount mis-behavior" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1098378
<hallyn> (and bug 1007089)
<ubottu> bug 1007089 in linux (Ubuntu) "overlayfs alters /proc/self/exe link(s), making result a dead link." [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1007089
<rbasak> I've applied for Ubuntu server dev upload rights.
<rbasak> Comments and/or endorsements appreciated: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobieBasak/ServerDeveloperApplication
<smoser> hallyn, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=overlayfs
<smb> hallyn, I will fwd them
<smoser> i just tagged those 3 bugs with 'overlayfs'
<hallyn> smoser: cool, thanks
<smoser> oh.. as far as endorsements go...
 * xnox wishes for 882147 (inotify) to be fixed =))))
<smoser> caribou, is also seeking contributing developer
<caribou> smoser: indeed I am
<smoser> so anyone who's seen his good work (myself included) should feel free/priviledge/expected to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LouisBouchard
 * caribou would be honoured :-)
<smoser> anything else ?
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<smoser> this concludes our regularly scheduled program
<smoser> tune in next week for more exciting server team development
<rbasak> Thanks for chairing, smoser!
<smoser> next meeting Tuesday 2013-06-11 at 1600 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<smoser> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  4 16:26:58 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-04-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-04-16.01.html
<arosales> smoser, thanks for chairing
<jamespage> o/
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  4 17:00:18 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Saucy
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
 * smb here
<henrix> o/
<cking> o/
<kamal> o/
<apw> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Q/master: lp1176977 ("XFS instability on armhf under load") - cherry picked
<ppisati> more fixes for the preallocation code, rerun the swift benchmark with different
<ppisati> fs sizes but unfortunately some xfs tests failed, under investigation.
<ppisati> */highbank: lp1182637("cpu_offlining fails to run on ARM") - little progress on
<ppisati> this one, but i'm still working on it.
<ppisati> ..
<ogasawara> quick question...
<ppisati> yep
<ogasawara> have we helped test the Nexus 7 kernel for phonedations?
<ogasawara> I recall they said they didn't have the hw
<ogasawara> and that was the only blocker from it landing in the touch images
<apw> i believe rtg was doing so
<ogasawara> ah, I'll sync with him upon his return then
<ogasawara> ..
<apw> failing that i have h/w as well
<bjf[afk]> i as well
 * ppisati too
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || foundations-1305-kernel || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> ||           || mobile-power-management || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || rtg       || foundations-1303-phablet-kernel-maintenance || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || sforshee  || foundations-1303-phablet-kernel-maintenance || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || servercloud-s-virtstack || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> It appears not all the blueprints are setting the series properly and thus we may be missing some
<ogasawara>  work items for our team.  I'll review any oversights and update the table next week.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Saucy Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Saucy Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Our Saucy unstable branch has been rebased to the latest v3.10-rc4
<ogasawara> upstream kernel.  Saucy master-next is currently at v3.9.4.  We are
<ogasawara> debugging some boot issues with the v3.10-rc4 rebase, so will hold off
<ogasawara> on uploading a v3.10 based kernel until those are resolved.
<ogasawara> We still anticipate an AppArmor pull request this week from the security
<ogasawara> team to get the latest AppArmor patches into our phablet kernels.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> Thurs June 20 - Alpha 1 (opt in)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (sconklin)
<bjf> Currently we have 71 CVEs on our radar, with 2 CVEs added and 0 CVEs retired in the last week.
<bjf> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<bjf> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<bjf> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<bjf> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<bjf> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Jun. 04):
<bjf> *   Lucid - In Verification;
<bjf> * Precise - In Verification;
<bjf> * Quantal - In Verification;
<bjf> * Raring  - In Verification;
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf> * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf> * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf> * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  4 17:06:47 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-04-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-04-17.00.html
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<apw> byee
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
<linuxCool> startmeeting samba
<linuxCool> :)
<linuxCool> #startmeeting samba
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  4 19:47:26 2013 UTC.  The chair is linuxCool. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | samba Meeting | Current topic:
<linuxCool> Lets talk about samba
<linuxCool> #meetingtopic samba share
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | samba share Meeting | Current topic:
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  4 19:53:39 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-04-19.47.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-04-19.47.html
<linuxCool> stgraber:why?
<linuxCool> stgraber: i need talk about samba
<stgraber> linuxCool: I'm not seeing any scheduled samba meetin on the fridge and this isn't an Ubuntu team meeting, so if you just have questions about samba in Ubuntu, I'd suggest asking them in #ubuntu-server instead of using #ubuntu-meeting which is reserved for team meetings
<linuxCool> stgraber: ok  how can I join the team?
<linuxCool> stgraber: ???
<stgraber> linuxCool: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam is probably a good start
<linuxCool> stgraber: 10x
<linuxCool> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-05
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun  5 15:03:37 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> cjwatson xnox barry stokachu jodh doko ev stgraber slangasek bdmurray
 * slangasek waves the starting flag
<ev> phew
<cjwatson> Investigation of delta updates for click packages.  Playing with debdelta, which looks promising, including working on a Python 3 port.
<cjwatson> Refactored click-package into the pattern of a single master command with subcommands (will land shortly).
<cjwatson> Lots of merges/syncs, including giant debhelper merge.  automake1.13 was some fun due to a buildd still running ext3.  Helped to fix firefox on powerpc.
<cjwatson> Finished several transitions (ghc, libgd, net-snmp, bits of ocaml).
<cjwatson> Sorted out some confusion with ubuntu-touch-meta.
<cjwatson> Several Debian NMUs / QA uploads to try to reduce deltas when I'm bored of merging things.
<cjwatson> Proposed Debconf BOF on Ubuntu daily quality and how it overlaps with Debian's CUT project.
<cjwatson> Next week: really, really get autopkgtest/proposed-migration integration going.
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> (and by "promising" I think I mean "makes my eyes bleed but seems to fill the right slot")
<xnox> please skip me. not ready yet.
<barry> LP: #1185170, python-gnupg 0.3.3-0ubuntu1 and 0.3.4-0ubuntu1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1185170 in python-json-pointer (Ubuntu) "setup.py stumbles about an umlaut in jsonpointer.py when running under Python 3" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1185170
<barry> dmb meeting
<barry> emacs 24.3 upgrade (yay! but it broke a few minor things that had to be tracked down)
<barry> image based upgrades: gpg regime (blacklists, api refactoring, keyring download/verification/unpacking)  lp:~barry/+junk/gpg for now
<barry> todo: continue working on the gpg spec
<barry> done
<xnox> barry: sorry barry about emacs =)
<barry> xnox: no, no, no... *thank* you.  the upgrade fixed more bugs than it caused :)
<slangasek> no stokachu today (at a sprint AIUI)
<slangasek> jodh:
<jodh> * foundations-1305-upstart-app-launching
<jodh>   - Reworked lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/libupstart to use an unpacked
<jodh>     ABI dump.
<jodh>   - Lots of rework on lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/allow-multiple-cmdline-confdirs
<jodh>     to improve test code-sharing and make writing new functional tests easier.
<jodh>   - Raised MP for lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/bug-1159895.
<jodh> * misc:
<jodh>   - LPC13 planning.
<jodh> * TODO:
<jodh>   - Ideally get lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/serialise-remaining-objects merged
<jodh>     upstream today.
<jodh>   - Go on holiday (from tomorrow, back on 20th).
<jodh> Ê
<doko> - android cross toolchain uploaded to PPA
<doko> - GCC 4.8.1 update, now updating cross compilers
<doko> - Mon and Tue two days off
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> ev:
<ev> drats
<ev> - https://wiki.canonical.com/Cassandra
<ev> - Rewrote and sent the announce email for the errors.ubuntu.com NDA:
<ev>   https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2013-May/001039.html
<ev> - Processing quite a few NDA signatures :).
<ev> - Investigated and resolved a problem where the NDA signature team couldn't
<ev>   access errors.ubuntu.com - we accidentally dropped a cowboy.
<ev> - Attended a Cassandra meetup. Trip report here:
<ev>   https://lists.launchpad.net/canonical-tech/msg06936.html
<slangasek> doko: do you know if ogra (or anyone) has started using the cross-toolchain yet?  I think he might be busy still with other pieces of the puzzle
<ev> - Worked with webops to get OOPS reporting to oops.canonical.com after many
<ev>   configuration headaches:
<ev>   https://oops.canonical.com/reports/WHOOPSIE-PROD/
<ev>   This means we no longer get 404s on some reports, and can scale to N wsgi
<ev>   workers without having OOPS reports in N places.
<ev> - Debugging why we were getting authentication failures to Swift when
<ev>   submitting core dumps with the webops team. It looks like RED kicked in
<ev>   because we are so behind on processing retraces (it fires on high disk usage)
<ev>   and that somehow caused the auth failures further down the chain. Still
<ev>   looking into this one.
<ev> - Code review for Brian.
<ev> - Got webops to start graphing the time to process HTTP requests on
<ev>   daisy.ubuntu.com after discussions with Tom. We want to be able to measure
<ev>   the performance impact with the move to Ceph, which this should let us do
<ev>   quite well.
<ogra> slangasek, i'm to busy with the container flip still
<ev> - Debugging why the back population jobs were falling over. This turns out to
<ev>   be HAProxy being a very bad idea when using pycassa:
<ev>   https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=62023
<ev> - Working with webops to get a test Cassandra node provisioned to try
<ev>   compression again, given learnings from the Cassandra meetup:
<ev>   https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=61877
<ev> - Added code to provide OOPS reports on javascript exceptions in
<ev>   errors.ubuntu.com.
<slangasek> ogra: ok :)
<ev> - Improved our OOPS reporting on errors in JSON API calls. We now include the
<ev>   traceback for those.
<ev> - Discussion with Katherine on how we can provide people like Kees access to
<ev>   the error data for investigating security vulnerabilities.
<ev> - Added RED support to the prodstack version of lp:daisy. Broken and in turn
<ev>   preventing merges from landing; investigating.
<ev> - Working with Ted to get them using recoverable problems for glib critical
<ev>   errors.
<ogra> slangasek, i plan to try it out for the updater-binary (most important bit for zip creation) before end of the week
<ev> - More chatting with the server team on getting error reporting up and running.
<ev>   Sounds like a d-i module for automatic error reporting and something in motd
<ev>   to point at outstanding reports are good places to start, and I think we have
<ev>   consensus. Next step will be talking with the juju team to see how we can
<ev>   make it easy to enable from there.
<ev> - Added metrics to support monitoring usage of errors.ubuntu.com, as laid out
<ev>   in the NDA.
<slangasek> ogra: great!
<ev> More, I'm sure, but I ran out of time typing :)
<ev> (done!)
<doko> slangasek, no, will ask
<doko> ahh ...
<slangasek> ev: getting any NDA requests from people who shouldn't be given access to the data? :P
<ev> slangasek: there's been at least two people who tried to provide an incomplete or nonexistent address. Just a reminder folks, "The Internet" is not a place we can send snail mail to.
<ev> I've followed up and convinced them to do the right thing.
<slangasek> pff, snail mail
<ev> but there haven't been people who claimed to be part of some nonexistent project yet
<ev> it's mostly been names I recognise
<ev> and some Canonical people (I'm adding them in, in case they ever jump ship and still want access)
<stgraber> Blueprint-related work:
<stgraber>  - Image based updates (BLUEPRINT: foundations-1305-image-based-updates)
<stgraber>   - Waiting on review of the GPG implementation plan, need to get the keys generated and signed after that.
<stgraber>   - Waiting for IS to setup the image based update server.
<stgraber>   - Update the differ to be pure python. We no longer need to unpack the tarballs for the checksuming part.
<stgraber>   - Rebuild the test server (http://phablet.stgraber.org) to match the current version of the spec. Includes all the needed keyrings and real test tarballs.
<stgraber>   - Added a new function, generate_version_tarball, which generates our version tarball (containing /etc/ubuntu-build)
<stgraber>   - The testsuite now covers all the server side code.
<stgraber> Other work:
<stgraber>  - release/cdimage
<stgraber>   - Quick production update of the QATracker (css update by knome)
<stgraber>   - Wrote a script to extract flavours participating in the current milestone (to be integrated in seeded-in-ubuntu)
<stgraber>   - Fixed broken (outdated) invoked-rc.d in ubuntu-release-upgrader
<stgraber>  - Ubuntu touch
<stgraber>   - Tweaked adbd to use nss to find what shell to use
<ev> slangasek: I'm going to do a few drives for people to fill it out though. This isn't going to be a throw the mail over the wall and be done with it thing.
<stgraber>   - Discussed the partitioning plan and fs layout for touch devices.
<stgraber>  - Upstart
<stgraber>   - Looked at and commented on a few merge proposals.
<stgraber>   - Discussed SRU plan for the serialization work.
<stgraber>   - Wrote upstart user session jobs for startkde, xfce4-session and startlxde
<stgraber>   - Tested upstart user session on Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, Ubuntu GNOME and Edubuntu
<stgraber>   - The plan is to switch all those sessions to run under upstart in a couple of weeks
<slangasek> ev: ah, cool
<stgraber>  - LXC
<stgraber>   - Answered some questions from the QA/desktop team on using LXC for their desktop tests
<stgraber>   - Some more autostart discussions upstream, I think we have a plan now, just need to implement it
<stgraber>   - Some code reviews
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> TODO:
<stgraber>  - Finish self-rebuilds feature implementation on nusakan
<stgraber>  - Implement some of the remaining bits for the image based update server tools
<slangasek> ev: if you're doing drives for legal documents, you could get them to sign the CLA too while they're at it ;)
<stgraber>  - Process some pending merges (ifupdown and resolvconf)
<stgraber> (DONE)
<slangasek> stgraber: image-based update server - AIUI from the ticket (and my sync call with IS), this ticket has been dispatched to the DC engineer and we should see some movement soon
<ev> slangasek: how far up the hill do you want me to push that boulder then?
<stgraber> slangasek: yep, I got pinged by deej yesterday, looks like we've got hardware, just need to have it setup
<slangasek> ev: :)
<ev> :D
<slangasek>  * in a long-running battle with bug #1152736
<slangasek>  * worked with stgraber to validate, upload nfs-utils merge; seem to have gotten myself comaintainer status in Debian as an unfortunate side-effect
<ubottu> bug 1152736 in linux (Ubuntu Saucy) "system swapping itself to death in raring for no good reason" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1152736
<slangasek>  * working with the phonedations team on the ubuntu-touch container flip:
<slangasek>   * current model is using chrooting under userdata partition, not the read-only system partiton; would like to fix this, aiming to have the system as pure Ubuntu as possible
<slangasek>   * questions about whether udev or ueventd should own the firmware loading
<slangasek>  * Code review of lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/serialise-remaining-objects
<slangasek>  * discussions with PES about arm64 bring-up; we should be close now to being able to bring the emulated buildds online
<slangasek>  * LPC travel sorted out
<slangasek> (done)
<cjwatson> slangasek: [fx: anxious noises wanting to play with the emulator]
<slangasek> cjwatson: heh
<doko> phonedation?
<bdmurray> submitted apport bug LP: #1185515 regaring duplicate signature for apport-package bugs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1185515 in apport (Ubuntu Raring) "SRU of updated apport-package duplicate signature calculation" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1185515
<bdmurray> uploaded P, Q and R SRUs for bug 1185515
<bdmurray> P, Q, R SRU verification of bug 1185515
<bdmurray> created a tool for checking for error buckets for duplicates of a launchpad bug
<bdmurray> investigation into errors bug 1186215
<ubottu> bug 1186215 in Errors "Timed out while loading subscriptions for most-common-problems" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1186215
<slangasek> doko: the Phone Foundations team, AKA fÅndations
<bdmurray> review of phased-updates report
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposal for errors version table sorting issue
<bdmurray> reported bug 1186376 regarding software-properties UI for phased updates options
<ubottu> bug 1186376 in software-properties (Ubuntu) "should support setting of whether or not to include phased updates" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1186376
<bdmurray> searched for pyc corruption bugs with error message in DpkgTerminalLog (e.g. apport-package crashes)
<xnox> doko: ogra's team.
<bdmurray> research into bug LP: #1175637
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1175637 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "Kernel updates are being marked as manually installed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1175637
<bdmurray> tested ubuntu-release-upgrader bug LP: #1181470
<bdmurray> modified sru-review to reject packages too
<bdmurray> emailed xubuntu-devel regarding update-notifier and auto-launch
<bdmurray> removed update-notifier's support for choosing not to auto-launch applications
<cjwatson> f
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1181470 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "deb-src repositories are not disabled for unknown distributions" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1181470
<cjwatson> oops
<bdmurray> merge, uploaded my changes to update-notifier that create and use upstart user sessions
<infinity> slangasek: ditto on emulator anxiety. :P
<bdmurray> patch piloting
<cjwatson> was attempting to type fÃ³ndations to see if I prefer that spelling
<bdmurray> â done
<xnox> * progressed with most merges (btrfs-tools left from important ones in
<xnox>   main, atm updating to merged btrfs-tools fails to boot)
<xnox> * demoed U1 plugin ubiquity to design/U1 teams over google hangout a
<xnox>   few issues got raised that I'm filing bugs/fixing. Also
<xnox>   incompatability between sso/u1 was discovered, thus still no go
<xnox>   ahead to enable the plugin by default.
<xnox> * helping out with automatic-raid preseeding case for UA/PES
<xnox> * implemented ubiquity autopilot proof of concept, for QA team source
<xnox>   writing tests.
<xnox> * reviewing upstart serialisation branch, raised a couple of questions
<xnox> * boost1.49 demoted to universe & synced (thanks infinity)
<xnox> * started looking into trimming gcc-android cross-toolchain (got rid
<xnox>   of java dependancy already, still to trim more & proposed patches to
<xnox>   doko)
<xnox> * Generated PDFs of some raring sources & binaries, apparently a few
<xnox>   more needed.
<xnox> done
<slangasek> infinity, cjwatson: so last I saw, vanhoof was having problems with the git checkout because he couldn't make git ignore ssl certificate verification hard enough.  If either of you have access to calabash, maybe you could help
<slangasek> cjwatson: "fÃ³ndations": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhR4RZMWbxw
<cjwatson> I tried, can't get to calabash
<ev> hahahahaha. Susan.
<cjwatson> slangasek: ha
<infinity> I, apparently, have access to calabash.
<infinity> slangasek: You have more info on that you want to pass me out of band, or should I just poke vanhoof with "Steve said something cryptic involving calabash and WTFery"?
<slangasek> infinity: mail bounced
<infinity> Ta.
<slangasek> any questions over the above statuseses?
<ev> infinity: do you happen to know if we've flipped that magic switch on ddebs?
<ev> I'm kind of on the wrong timezone to have regular chats with the launchpad folk
<jodh> slangasek: my favourite so far http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzt2NLU3uSo&list=PLB4CCD4AB5BCBF4E3
<slangasek> ddeb magic switch == powerpc cross-retracers
<slangasek> you know you want them
<slangasek> jodh: :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: any course corrections for us?
<jodh> slangasek: oops should have been http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6usx5vS238Y
<slangasek> jodh: oh, heh
<bdmurray> I could use some help investigating bug 1175637
<ubottu> bug 1175637 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "Kernel updates are being marked as manually installed" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1175637
<slangasek> bdmurray: you did that on a precise system with all package-manager-related SRUs up to date?
<slangasek> (does unattended-upgrade use aptdaemon or not?)
<slangasek> hmm, it doesn't
<infinity> ev: Not flipped yet, no.
<slangasek> but it is written to python-apt directly
<ev> rubbish
<bdmurray> slangasek: yes regarding package manager SRUs
<ev> thanks though
<infinity> ev: Don't make me get elmo in here to dude you.
<slangasek> bdmurray: so I think it's probably a straightforward matter of unattended-upgrades not calling the right api to mark packages as auto when pulling them in as new deps
<slangasek> not that I know what that api actually is
<ev> infinity: I'm so not complaining.
<bdmurray> slangasek: okay
<cjwatson> mark_install(from_user=False) I think?  But check ...
<slangasek> ah, there's a single call to mark_install() in u-a, so that would be nice and convenient if so
<slangasek> bdmurray: is that enough to be going on with?
<bdmurray> slangasek: yep, just need some more kernel updates ;-)
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> or test in a chroot!
<cjwatson> you can mark_auto() on single packages too but you probably don't want to
<slangasek> right
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything else?
<bdmurray> slangasek: nope
<slangasek> okie
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Touch saucy dogfooding
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Touch saucy dogfooding
<slangasek> so the Phonedations Team and Desktop Team are at the point where they're ready to finally flip all the Touch development to target saucy exclusively
<slangasek> (up to this point, some things have been stuck on raring ppas for $reasons)
<slangasek> please take some time to test those images out when they become available and help iterate them, so that we can assist in nailing down any regressions as quickly as possible
<slangasek> there are several more major shifts in the pipeline, of which this is only the first
<cjwatson> I gather this morning's images were busted?
<slangasek> I haven't seen
<xnox> cjwatson: well, there is a .1 as well already for today.
<xnox> http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-touch/daily-preinstalled/20130605.1/
<slangasek> not ubuntu-touch, though
<slangasek> I'm talking about http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-touch-preview/daily-preinstalled
<cjwatson> ah, yes, the jenkins images
<slangasek> the /next/ major shift is to get our actual images really and truly built via cdimage infrastructure
<slangasek> which I believe will also come with the container flip (to boot to Ubuntu first and run Android in a container, instead of the other way around)
<xnox> ok.
<slangasek> if you want to help with this, there's ongoing discussion in #ubuntu-touch about how to make this happen
<slangasek> </PSA>
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<ev> are the containers flipped?
<ev> the spec looks like that's sort of happened, but I haven't updated yet
<stgraber> they are in the saucy images, when they boot
<slangasek> no
<ev> conflict!
<slangasek> stgraber: no, the container flip is separate from the move to saucy
<slangasek> there will be saucy images, still built in jenkins, ASAP
<slangasek> then on top of that, we still need to get the container flip done
<cjwatson> I think stgraber means the ubuntu-touch/saucy images
<slangasek> yes - the images in /ubuntu-touch/ are still a work in progress; help is welcome, but those are separate from the daily images that everyone will be dogfooding right now
<stgraber> ah yeah, sorry for the confusion, I'm only looking at those from /ubuntu-touch
<ev> aren't the ubuntu-touch ones the ones I want?
<slangasek> this is confusing - I'm hoping we will be able to clearcut this confusion soon :)
<slangasek> ev: you probably want the ones that have been on the floor since their creation
<slangasek> er, /don't/ :)
<ev> ah, probably not :)
<slangasek> ev: ubuntu-touch-preview - these are the ones that are built in jenkins, are moving to saucy imminently, still have Android as the root, and phablet-tools will install them
<ev> ahhhh
<slangasek> ev: ubuntu-touch - these are still a work in progress, built on the livefs builders, will have Ubuntu as the root, and have bugs to be hammered out
<ev> right
<ev> thanks, that makes much more sense to me now
<slangasek> ok :)
 * xnox vaguely wants to upgrade util-linux & include more namespace patches against shadow
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun  5 15:52:28 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-05-15.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-05-15.03.html
<slangasek> that's a wrap
<slangasek> thanks :)
<stgraber> thanks!
<xnox> any reasonable now-how at testing those?
<xnox> thanks.
<jodh> thanks!
<barry_> slangasek: looks like i got disconnected.  i'm guessing the meeting ended just after your aob topic? ;)
<xnox> barry_: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-05-15.03.html
<xnox> barry_: full log: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-05-15.03.log.html
<barry_> xnox: cheers!
* hobana.freenode.net changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-06
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  6 17:00:30 2013 UTC.  The chair is pleia2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pleia2> Hi everyone :) welcome to the Community Council meeting
<pleia2> #chairs czajkowski YokoZar beuno
<pleia2> #chair czajkowski YokoZar beuno
<meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar beuno czajkowski pleia2
<czajkowski> aloha \o/
<YokoZar> Greetings
<pleia2> (now not to get my meeting channels mixed up)
 * cprofitt waives hello
<pleia2> our plan today is to meet with some representatives of the Lubuntu project and the Edubuntu council
<pleia2> #chair cprofitt
<meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar beuno cprofitt czajkowski pleia2
<pleia2> do we have anyone from either team here with us to get started?
 * phillw waves :)
<YokoZar> Hello phillw
<cprofitt> hello phillw
<phillw> pleia2: I'm the lubuntu person :)
<pleia2> phillw: great, we'll start with you then!
<pleia2> #topic Lubuntu check-in
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lubuntu check-in
<pleia2> this is a pretty casual check-in, how the team is doing, any challenges, any ways we can help
<phillw> hi, I'm the Team Lead foe lubuntu quality / testing team.
<czajkowski> phillw: hey there
<czajkowski> thanks for coming
<YokoZar> How big is the Lubuntu team would you say, very roughly
<phillw> So far, things are going well, we're just deciding on which of the alphas to test (possibly drop a2)
 * pleia2 nods
<phillw> we have approx 10 active testers and 4 devs, 6 people for docs / wiki, a comms team and a small artwork team
<pleia2> that's great
<czajkowski> phillw: impressively orgnised
<phillw> that's down to the various Team Leads, they do outstanding work
<czajkowski> phillw: has it been easy to get volunteers to lead your teams?
<phillw> I'm not familiar with the translators as they tend to work directly on lxde things and with ubuntu-translators.
<phillw> oh, and an irc-ops team!
<phillw> it was not too easy at 1st, it was sort of who squealed the least when approached :P
<pleia2> hehe
<cprofitt> phillw: is there any area that you think the CC could help youre team?
<phillw> Nothing springs to mind, the guys & gals are pretty good at sorting out things. We're a mix of democratic and technocratic, as I think all teams are.
<czajkowski> phillw: have ye had any issues to deal with ?
<pleia2> that's always good to hear :)
<YokoZar> Are we doing the "distribution as a whole" thing right in general, or are there systematic things we do that sort of break things for Lubuntu that you have to fix?
<phillw> not really, people on the teams understand eachother and don't mind explaining things to other teams
<czajkowski> phillw: that is great to hear
<phillw> YokoZar: there was the un annnounced (to us) change in the release that drives the artwork and icons a couple of releases ago. But, as the teams have their leaders who keep in touch with those relevant parts we have not had any 'surprises' last two cycles :)
<pleia2> sounds like you guys are doing great the, thanks for joining us phillw :)
<pleia2> s/the/then
<cprofitt> thanks phillw
<phillw> 13.10 is actually our stable beta for our 1st LTS, it should be released as full release, but we reserve the right to call it stable beta.
<phillw> you're very welcome!
<czajkowski> phillw: thank you for the updates today
<pleia2> I think we meet at a bad timezone for the edubuntu folks, and they've been pretty focused on LTS lately as far as I can tell, we can follow up at another meeting or over email
<czajkowski> phillw: if you ever need to contact the CC please feel free to do so
<phillw> thanks
<pleia2> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<pleia2> anyone else have anything to bring up?
<cprofitt> I was wondering if anyone had thried Discourse yet?
<cprofitt> tried rather?
<czajkowski> I need some free time to try new things :)
<pleia2> yep (and it runs on hpcloud!)
<pleia2> but I don't really do those web things
<czajkowski> I just wonder is another place to put information out there going to dilute the information further
<cprofitt> czajkowski: that I think is a concern.
<pleia2> I think it's going to be a tough sell to get developers who are comfortable on mailing lists to use it
<czajkowski> pleia2: +1
<cprofitt> I was thinking we may want to discuss that in an open public session; as part of a larger Ubuntu Community communications
<YokoZar> I don't like discourse
<czajkowski> me personally nothing will ever replace mailing lists and irc. but who knows.
<YokoZar> I don't think it properly replaces forums
<YokoZar> cause of all the gamificationy nonsense
<YokoZar> at least in terms of forming personal relationships
<cprofitt> Having G+, Facebook, Forums, Discourse, Ask Ubuntu, Mailing Lists and IRC is an overload of options
<czajkowski> and having to spend more time on other places following the information to make sure it's correct is just another place to watch
<pleia2> forums have almost 2 million members (with over 13k online now), I think ever moving that will be impossible
<cprofitt> I am sure I forgot identi.ca, Twitter and others too
<YokoZar> I don't mean to be a curmudgeon or whatever but I actually use "social" web forums and just about everything the discourse folk wanted to do was deliberately not done for important reasons on that medium.
<cprofitt> +1 czajkowski
<pleia2> it's by far our biggest support outlet, and seems to be effective for those who use it :)
<YokoZar> Although I'll note that we do some of the "don't do this" stuff on the Ubuntu forums, like enable postcounts
<czajkowski> pleia2: indeed
<cprofitt> pleia2: I agree it works very well for a large group of people
<czajkowski> and many people do and will continute to use forums. But equally many will use IRC or Ask Ubuntu over another option
<cprofitt> while I am open to trying new things, I think we need to define the problem
<czajkowski> but not sure introducingt another "offical" avenue is a good thing imo
<cprofitt> right now it seems like a solution seeking a problem to solve
<YokoZar> perhaps "monitoring all sources" is not a job meant for us to do ;)
<czajkowski> cprofitt: or just cause some new tool is out there we should jump on it and try it
<cprofitt> YokoZar: I agree.
<czajkowski> YokoZar: I agree but it does fall down to someone to look after and follow up on items
<pleia2> I think it's healthy for people to "just do it" as jcastro has, so I don't mind that it exists
<czajkowski> YokoZar: do we need another council to look after another tool :)
<cprofitt> I do worry about the increasing difficulty of communication between elements of our community though
<czajkowski> Such as ?
<cprofitt> +1 pleia2
<pleia2> at least it's open source thsi time :)
<cprofitt> czajkowski: the difficulty I am speaking of is the large number of potential places information is placed...
<czajkowski> cprofitt: ah yes I agree there.
<cprofitt> though Ubuntu News helps to collect that in a nice package
<YokoZar> Personally I think people will discuss Ubuntu wherever they want, and the more we're discussed in places people want to talk the more people will step up there
<cprofitt> I would like to invite some community feedback on the issue of communication via different mediums... to find out if others in the community feel it is an issue that we should look at or not.
<cprofitt> I tend to agree with that YokoZar
<pleia2> sounds good
<pleia2> anyone else have anything before we wrap-up?
<czajkowski> nope thanks pleia2
<cprofitt> yes, thanks pleia2
<pleia2> ok, thanks everyone :)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  6 17:27:13 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-06-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-06-06-17.00.html
* Topic unset by of1967 on #ubuntu-meeting
<of1967> HI
<tcarrondo> of1967, viva Orlando!
<of1967> ah
<of1967> ok
<of1967> olÃ¡
<of1967> estava Ã  procura de carrondo
<tcarrondo> the meeting should be starting any time..
<tcarrondo> AndChat|96921, Mr Coxo?
<AndChat|96921> It's me bb
<AndChat|96921> Coxo aqui
<AndChat|96921> Sim?
<tcarrondo> AndChat|96921, I'm waiting for the meeting to start
<AndChat|96921> So am I
<AndChat|96921> Better?
<AndChat|96921> Can't change the nick
<AndChat|96921> But I'
<AndChat|96921> I'm proud of you
<tcarrondo> hehe
<AndChat|96921> 10 years since fmh
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<tcarrondo> pleia2, anything's wrong with today's meeting?
<pleia2> the topic got out of sync, I was just fixing it (no meeting is happening at the moment)
<tcarrondo> but is it going to start?
<pleia2> what meeting are you looking for?
<pleia2> ah, membership board?
<tcarrondo> yep :)
<pleia2> cjohnston: membership board meeting happening today?
<tcarrondo> cjohnston's not here :(
<AndChat|96921> Evil power
<tcarrondo> hi bkerensa !
<bkerensa> tcarrondo: We don't have a quorom could you please come back at our next meeting?
<tcarrondo> bkerensa: I'm not sure but I can try
<bkerensa> tcarrondo: My apologies that today did not work out but we would definitely like to hear your application at the next meeting that is convenient for you
<AndChat|96921> So
<AndChat|96921> .
<of1967> no meeting?
<tcarrondo> AndChat|96921, of1967, afigueiras, fmartins : meeting is off
<of1967> :(
<carlos_abundis> Have a nice day everyone =D
<AndChat|96921> Sorry man
<AndChat|96921> You'll get there
<AndChat|96921> ...
<AndChat|96921> U deserve it
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-06-07
<winnycarreno> hoola
<winnycarreno> hay alguien alli?
<Encrypt> Hi everybody!
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-02
<Laney> ok
<Laney> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<bdrung_work> o/
<Laney> we have one vote via email already so need three people
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> so looks like we've got quorum for shadeslayer (if only barely)
<shadeslayer> hey ho :)
<stgraber> hey there
<Laney> cool
<Laney> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  2 15:04:18 2014 UTC.  The chair is Laney. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<Laney> #topic Action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Action items
<ScottK> Sorta here. In transit.
<Laney> Hrm, they were cleared or never added to gthe agenda
<Laney> Anyway, AFAIK it was just creating the virt set which xnox did
<Laney> with stgraber's help
<Laney> stgraber: want to run your eagle eye over the team's configuration?
<stgraber> Laney: yep, doing that now
<Laney> cheers
<Laney> let's do this application thing
<stgraber> there are problems, fixing
<Laney> #topic MOTU application: Rohan Garg
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: MOTU application: Rohan Garg
<Laney> hi shadeslayer
<shadeslayer> hi everyone! :)
<Laney> could you introuce yourself?
<stgraber> Laney: for the record, the DMB should never be a member of a packaging team, core-dev should always be a member (without an expiry) and existing members should have a two years expiry (instead of 1)
<Laney> xnox: ^^^^^
<stgraber> also, members should be allowed to self-renew after 730 (instead of re-apply after 365)
<shadeslayer> Sure, I'm Rohan Garg, I've been contributing to Kubuntu for nearly 4 years now ( launchpad indicates that my first upload was in earl 2010 ), mostly involved in the packaging side, though I occassionaly also contribute bug fixes to KDE
<stgraber> Laney: all fixed
<shadeslayer> I'm currently a member of Kubuntu Dev, which allows me upload rights to most of KDE SC, however, I'd also like to contribute to the wider array of KDE packages and libraries that KDE builds upon in the ubuntu universe
<Laney> stgraber: thanks
<shadeslayer> wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/shadeslayer
<shadeslayer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/shadeslayer/MOTUDeveloperApplication
<Riddell> I support rohan, he's a top notch contributor and it would be great to have him easily able to help throughout universe land
<Laney> but if it's not going to happen (if 4 people won't be there) I'd appreciate someone letting shadeslayer know and SMSing me
<Laney> ffs sorry
<stgraber> :)
<Laney> I'm suffering from extreme latency
<Laney> currently in a cafe
<Laney> okay seems a bit better now
<Laney> shadeslayer: thanks for the intro, good to see nice endorsements
<Laney> do you plan on working on anything outside of non-seeded KDE stuff? :)
<Laney> like sponsoring ;-)
<shadeslayer> if it's within my domain, I can lend a hand sure
<Riddell> he's also a merging master
<stgraber> I guess that's the main point of that application right since you're already a member of kubuntu-dev and ubuntu-qt5-dev which I guess cover most of the existing kde packages
<Laney> much stuff in the queue is fairly general
<shadeslayer> for eg. I can understand basic autotools as well
<shadeslayer> and moderately complex cmake things
<Laney> exactly, like merges (although they are tiresome to review)
<shadeslayer> true ^_^
<Laney> (since you end up redoing the work)
<shadeslayer> so sure, I can help with the sponsoring as when I have time :) , though I'll probably need some reminding every now and then ;)
<Laney> do you work directly in debian-qt-kde?
<shadeslayer> when the occassion calls for it, I've sent bug reports upstream, these days I'm working with maxy ( a debian DD ) to get delta reduced between debian and ubuntu KDE packages
<stgraber> shadeslayer: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<shadeslayer> I think so
<shadeslayer> FWIW some examples of my work done in Debian https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?archive=both;dist=unstable;submitter=rohangarg%40kubuntu.org
<stgraber> shadeslayer: do you know how to check if a given package affects a particular Ubuntu image?
<shadeslayer> stgraber: you mean if it's seeded? seeded-in-ubuntu packagename
<stgraber> shadeslayer: yep, good answer :)
<shadeslayer> :)
<Laney> anyone got any more questions?
 * Laney is done
<Laney> bdrung_work: ScottK:
<stgraber> shadeslayer: so say we are Tuesday of alpha-2 week, you want to sponsor a vlc merge, can you do it without any worries or should you refrain?
<bdrung_work> finally seeded-in-ubuntu is talked of :)
<stgraber> shadeslayer: consider that this is for the 14.10 cycle
<shadeslayer> stgraber: if it's a bug fix release, I don't see a issue ( though maybe inform the Mythbuntu folks )
<stgraber> shadeslayer: ok. Asking is always the safe way to go about this kind of things :)
<shadeslayer> if it's a release with features, that /might/ cause potential bugs for Mythbuntu ISO's
<shadeslayer> then collaborate with mythbuntu, get it tested in a PPA, and then land
<stgraber> this was a trick question though as Mythbuntu is LTS-only and so doesn't really care about 14.10. For any other seeded package during a milestone week, it's usually expected to either refrain or talk to the affected flavors.
<stgraber> Laney: no further question
<Laney> thanks
<Laney> bdrung_work: anything?
<shadeslayer> you trickster you :P , but yeah, I'd just poke the relevant Mythbuntu folks
<bdrung_work> Laney, yes, one
<ScottK> No questions
<Laney> go go go
<bdrung_work> shadeslayer, do you plan to become a DD or to join the Debian KDE team to directly commit your changes to their git repositories?
<bdrung_work> IMO that's the simplest way to keep the diff between Debian and Ubuntu small
 * apachelogger puts cookies that might be considered bribe cookies in the channel
<shadeslayer> I honestly don't know, usually I apply for upload permissions when I get annoyed that I can't fix stuff that annoys me or users, so far nothing like that has happened, when that happens, I'll probably apply :P
<Laney> you can usually get team membership without upload rights
<Laney> it lets you stage things directly in the vcs
<Laney> (referring to alioth teams)
<Laney> bdrung_work: anything more?
<bdrung_work> no
<bdrung_work> everything else was covered
<Laney> thanks
<shadeslayer> well, usually there's very little friction when I send a patch to a DD in the debian qt kde team, so haven't been frustrated enough to apply for the team
 * Laney nods
<Laney> It just turns "send a patch" into "commit a patch" :)
<apachelogger> (random note regarding debian cooperation: there has been ongoing discussion about actually putting kubuntu package maintenance into the debian repos as to reduce merge overhead to somewhere close to nil)
<Laney> #vote Should shadeslayer join ~motu?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Should shadeslayer join ~motu?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<bdrung_work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung_work
<Laney> +1 good endorsements, good work, good answers - thanks!
<meetingology> +1 good endorsements, good work, good answers - thanks! received from Laney
<Laney> ScottK: want to vote for realz?
<Laney> well anwyay, he already voted +1 in an email
<Laney> so...
<Laney> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Should shadeslayer join ~motu?
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Laney> well done ;)
<Laney> #action Laney to add shadeslayer to ~motu
<meetingology> ACTION: Laney to add shadeslayer to ~motu
<Laney> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<Laney> going
<Laney> going
<shadeslayer> thanks!
<bdrung_work> shadeslayer, congrats!
<Laney> gone
<Laney> thanks all!
<stgraber> shadeslayer: congrats!
<Laney> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  2 15:40:13 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-02-15.04.moin.txt
<stgraber> Laney: thanks!
<Laney> shadeslayer: I added you
<shadeslayer> thanks!
<shadeslayer> yay
<Laney> happy uploading
<ScottK> Congrats shadeslayer.
<shadeslayer> thx ScottK
<xnox> stgraber: ack, I did 1 year, was going to remove DMB - but forgot (it gets auto-added when becomming an owner), didn't know about core-dev. Also did i correctly make ~ubuntu-virt-dev a member of ~ubuntu-dev ?
<xnox> stgraber: thanks for fix ups.
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-03
<coreycb> o/
<smoser> o/
<gnuoy> o/
<beisner> o/
<coreycb> Hey all, I'll be chairing the ubuntu-server meeting today.  First timer!
<matsubara> o/
<coreycb> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  3 16:02:19 2014 UTC.  The chair is coreycb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<lutostag> o/
<coreycb> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<coreycb> There were no action items from last week's meeting
<coreycb> #topic Utopic Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Utopic Development
<coreycb> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseSchedule
<rharper> o/
<coreycb> vUDS is next week
<gnuoy> hi kickinz1
<kickinz1> Hi gnuoy!
<coreycb> schedule says June 12th (Monday - Wednesday) - so I'm not exactly sure what days it is
<coreycb> probably mon-wed, and completed by thurs June 12th
<gaughen> o/
<coreycb> gaughen, can you confirm my statement? :)
<gaughen> coreycb, it's June 10-12
<gaughen> which is Tue-Thu
<coreycb> Ok thanks.  So mark your calendars!
<gaughen> I'm still working on topics, so if someone has a suggestion for something fabulous - I'm all ears!
<coreycb> Does anyone have anything else to metion regarding vUDS?
<beisner> is that the virtual Unicorn Developer Summit?
<coreycb> lol, sounds close enough
<coreycb> alright, moving on
<gaughen> beisner, GENIUS!
<coreycb> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-u-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<beisner> that was for you, gaughen
<coreycb> let me try that again
<coreycb> #subtopic Release Bugs
<coreycb> topic is not changing
<coreycb> I think we're good
<coreycb> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-u-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<coreycb> we have 3 high importance bugs
<coreycb> bug 1319555
<ubottu> bug 1319555 in ec2-api-tools (Ubuntu Utopic) "update out-dated ec2-api-tools for 12.04" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1319555
<coreycb> That bug is fix released for utopic.  It looks like Precise and trusty are still in the works?
<gaughen> hrmm, utlemming isn't in the meeting
<coreycb> smoser, maybe you know
<smoser> checking. i think its fixed.
<smoser> or they said not important.
<smoser> yeah, he marked it invalid
<smoser> why would it still be on a list ?
<smoser> odd.
<smoser> that list seems out of date then.
<coreycb> ah yes it says invalid for precise and trusty
<coreycb> #action refresh bug list
<meetingology> ACTION: refresh bug list
<gaughen> ooh I've never done an action, coreycb
<gaughen> you are fancy
<coreycb> I'm pretty fancy
<coreycb> bug 1315052
<ubottu> bug 1315052 in lxc (Ubuntu Trusty) "lxc-attach from a different login session fails" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1315052
 * rharper copies coreycb as QOTD 
<coreycb> hallyn_, anything new there?  Looks to be fixed everywhere but trusty.
<smoser> coreycb and his hashtags.
<hallyn_> i think that may actually be fixed, but not sure
<hallyn_> fix committed upstream anyway
<coreycb> hallyn_, Sounds good
<coreycb> and last but not least
<coreycb> bug 1317587
<ubottu> bug 1317587 in clamav (Ubuntu Utopic) "ClamAV 0.98.1 is Outdated" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1317587
<coreycb> That's in progress.  Do we need to follow up with Scott Kitterman on that?
<coreycb> gaughen, jamespage, smoser, anyone?
 * coreycb insert Ferris Bueller quote
 * gaughen avoids eye contact
<rharper> those are nice shoes
<coreycb> ok moving on
<coreycb> heh
<coreycb> #subtopic Blueprints
<gaughen> :-)
<coreycb> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-u/group/topic-u-server.html
<coreycb> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-u-server
<coreycb> We're making progress on some of these
<gaughen> coreycb, the team is working on getting the blueprints filled out completley
<gaughen> I'm expecting we'll get them solidified around vUDS
<coreycb> gaughen, Great, sounds good
<gaughen> overall, I'm very pleased with where we are in the cycle blueprint wise - YEAH TEAM!!!!!!
<coreycb> great, moving on
<coreycb> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> well, follow-up on blueprint topic
<caribou> I created this one : https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-u-networked-kdump
<gaughen> caribou, ah, I should link that in... although it's rather blank ;-)
<caribou> pls confirm that it is no longer required
<caribou> as I'm doing the work on debian first
<caribou> so it will be merged in from debian
<caribou> so no need for a blueprint then, right ?
<caribou> aside from that, I'm good, nothing else to bring up coreycb
<coreycb> I'm not sure.  Maybe jamespage or smoser knows.
<gaughen> caribou, I would say we'd want one if there is anything we need to make sure to do in the release
<smoser> reading
<smoser> caribou, theres never actually any *need* for a blueprint :)
<smoser> it wouldnt hurt to have a blueprint, it cna still trak items that are done in debian.
<smoser> [caribou] get stuff into debian
<smoser> [caribou] make sure stuff works in ubuntu
<smoser> ...
<caribou> smoser: ok, will do that & get it approved
<smoser> obviously better tasks than that are allowed :)
<coreycb> ok thanks
<coreycb> next topic
<coreycb> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<coreycb> It looks like psivaa is not around
<coreycb> next topic
<coreycb> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smb> Hi there. And sorry not really much to say.
<coreycb> Ok smb, thanks for the update :)
<coreycb> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<coreycb> well, as we mentioned earlier vUDS is next week.  Anything else going on?
<gaughen> caribou, do we want to discuss kdump at vuds?
<caribou> gaughen: sure we could schedule something
<caribou> gaughen: if there is any interest
<gaughen> caribou, my goal would be to have the blueprint all sorted by the end of next week.
<gaughen> and if we need a vUDS session to help do that, so be it
<gaughen> coreycb, there's an Openstack meetup in London on Thursday.
<gaughen> it's open to the community. gnuoy and jamespage are going
<gaughen> that is all I can think of
<coreycb> Great, thanks gaughen
<coreycb> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<coreycb> Does anyone have anything else they'd like to cover?
<gaughen> here's the info on the event - http://www.eventbooking.uk.com/openstack/home.html
<coreycb> alrighty, thanks everyone
<coreycb> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<coreycb> +7 days
<coreycb> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  3 16:30:18 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-03-16.02.moin.txt
<gaughen> thanks Coreycb!
<gnuoy> thanks coreycb
<caribou> thanks coreycb
<rharper> thanks
<coreycb> gaughen, gnuoy, caribou, rharper: thanks for the thanks! :)
<gaughen> lol
<gaughen> coreycb, thanks for the thanks for the thanks
<coreycb> oh boy..
<gaughen> ha!
<gaughen> coreycb, I blame beisner. he mentioned unicorn and then I got all amped up
<beisner> ;)
<coreycb> gaughen, hehe
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  3 17:00:19 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Utopic
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<smb> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<rtg> o/
<henrix> o/
<apw> o/
<bjf> o/
<sconklin_> o/ :-)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<jsalisbury> No new update this week.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-u/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || core-1405-kernel || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara || core-1405-kernel || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Utopic Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Utopic Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have most recently rebased our Utopic kernel to v3.15-rc8 and
<ogasawara> uploaded (3.15.0-5.10).  We are planning on converging on the v3.16
<ogasawara> kernel for Utopic.  It also appears that the Utopic release date has
<ogasawara> been pushed out a week to Thurs Oct 23 in order to not conflict with
<ogasawara> the Linux Plumbers Conference.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Mon-Wed June 10 - 12, UOS - Ubuntu Online Summit (~1 week away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Jun 26 - Alpha 1 (~3 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Fri Jun 27 - Kernel Freeze for 12.04.5 and 14.04.1 (~3 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Trusty/Saucy/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Trusty/Saucy/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<henrix> Status for the main kernels, until today (June 3):
<henrix>   *   Lucid - Verification and Testing
<henrix>   * Precise - Verification and Testing
<henrix>   * Quantal - No changes this cycle
<henrix>   *   Saucy - Verification and Testing
<henrix>   *  Trusty - Verification and Testing
<henrix>  
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<henrix>  
<henrix> Schedule:
<henrix>  
<henrix> cycle: 18-May through 07-Jun
<henrix> ====================================================================
<henrix>          16-May   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<henrix> 18-May - 24-May   Kernel prep week.
<henrix> 25-May - 31-May   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<henrix> 01-Jun - 07-Jun   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  3 17:06:31 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-03-17.00.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-06-05
 * barry waves
 * slangasek waves
<doko> hi
<mvo> hi
<jodh> yo
 * stgraber waves
 * xnox o/
<sil2100> o/
<caribou> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  5 15:05:17 2014 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<xnox> doko: we were discussing the sprint on mumble, the one on the slopes ;-)
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox caribou infinity mvo bhuey sil2100 robru)
<slangasek> robru sil2100 mvo bdmurray bhuey doko cjwatson caribou barry xnox slangasek stgraber infinity jodh
<slangasek> hmm, no, let me reshuffle
<xnox> slangasek: that's not random at all =)
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox caribou infinity mvo bhuey sil2100 robru)
<slangasek> doko cjwatson caribou bdmurray sil2100 bhuey mvo slangasek infinity barry robru xnox jodh stgraber
 * barry takes a 15m nap
<slangasek> better ;)
<xnox> yeah =)
<bhuey> folks
<doko> - client sprint
<doko> - mentoring for openjdk-7 builds
<doko> - openjdk-8 packaging, now building everywhere except on armhf
<doko> - GCC 4.7.4 updates
<doko> - preparing GCC updates for trusty
<doko> - python 2.7.7 release
<doko> - python 3.4.1 uploads, ensurepip fixes
<doko> - fix the last (?) python autopkg test failures
<doko> (done)
<cjwatson> Starting in on phone RTM archive preparations:
<cjwatson>  - Discussion of plans with ubuntu-release/ubuntu-phone/launchpad-dev.
<cjwatson>  - Started writing sketch derive-distribution script; not got very far yet.
<cjwatson>  - Working on generalising proposed-migration a little to be able to handle multiple series, which will be immediately useful as a dry-run for stable releases and will be needed for RTM.
<cjwatson>  - To do next: move cron.germinate out of Launchpad into ubuntu-archive-publishing to remove one more piece of Ubuntu-specific hardcoding; possibly pick up one or two other small LP tasks; make further progress on derive-distribution script.
<cjwatson> Click:
<cjwatson>  - Fixed broken getpwnam caching.
<cjwatson>  - QA call.
<cjwatson>  - Handled renaming of upstart-app-launch to ubuntu-app-launch.
<cjwatson> Bootstrapped opencolorio/openimageio on armhf.
<cjwatson> Fixed up samba build failures that were indirectly blocking many other builds in -proposed (notably unity8).
<cjwatson> Sponsored biosdevname fixes (bug 1324558).
<ubottu> bug 1324558 in biosdevname (Ubuntu Saucy) "[SRU] biosdevname returns identical names for two different devices." [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324558
<cjwatson> Sent MP fixing mir/arm64 build.
<cjwatson> Scalingstack/buildd-manager call with IS and William.
<cjwatson> Started on my backlog of ppc64el boot loader bugs in response to some PM nagging.
<cjwatson> ..
<doko> you're on vacation, go away ;-P
<cjwatson> doko: who is?
<doko> cjwatson, I thought you ...
<cjwatson> nope
<cjwatson> I took a swap day on Tuesday
 * xnox has no idea when/who is on vacations after the new hr system got introduced
<ogra_> you could use that to your advantage ;)
<slangasek> the HR system has been fixed and no longer tells me I have the entire month of June approved as swap time ;-(
<bdmurray> caribou: ?
<caribou> oh, sorry
<caribou> * Qemu/KVM crash analysis : many difficulties
<caribou> * Custom preseed for HP soft RAID controller
<caribou> (done)
<bdmurray> client sprint
<bdmurray> tested errors with django 1.5 (different fail)
<bdmurray> modified daisy to log date and time in errors log
<bdmurray> modified daisy to return OOPS ID when a crash is reported (bug 1326000)
<bdmurray> modified whoopsie to log OOPS ID when a crash is reported (bug 1326000)
<ubottu> bug 1326000 in whoopsie (Ubuntu) "whoopsie should record OOPS ID for an uploaded crash" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1326000
<bdmurray> commited a fix for errors bug 1324924
<bdmurray> fixed error with errors charm not restarting gunicorn
<bdmurray> discussed https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-1308-click-error-reporting with cjwatson
<ubottu> bug 1324924 in Errors "create bug link should not appear if the package is unknown" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324924
<bdmurray> fixed LP: #1324589 regarding xdiagnose
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1324589 in xdiagnose (Ubuntu) "crashes reported by apport-gpu-error-intel.py are missing the package version" [Undecided,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324589
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposal fixing bug 1324833
<bdmurray> ubuntu-release-upgrader bug triage
<bdmurray> research into duplicates of upgrade bug 1324196 regarding python from PPA
<ubottu> bug 1324833 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu) "crash handler does not include package version" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324833
<ubottu> bug 1324196 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "upgrade from 12.04 or 13.10 to 14.04 not possible due to python3 from blender PPA" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324196
<bdmurray> ubuntu-release-upgrader SRU verification
<bdmurray> â done
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> So, this week I've been mostly busy with CI Train landing coordination and fighting with various issues we had from the landings we made
<sil2100> On Friday we landed a big feature, the split-out greeter from unity8, which generally caused many issues arising in our test infrastructure and image quality
<sil2100> Long story short, this got fixed, but now we're still battling the results of another buggy landing - the upstart-app-launch rename to ubuntu-app-launch, which seems to have caused some issues
<sil2100> In the meantime I also fixed some of the minor bugs in citrain code that we had and worked on some new features, like auto-updating changelog messages if there are dependency changes present
<sil2100> This can be disabled and tries to be smart
<sil2100> There were some more minor things going on, but probably got lost in my mind in-between the big firefighting we've been doing
<sil2100> Just as a final note:
<sil2100> We will be entering the so called TRAINCON-0 mode today again because there has been no promotions lately
<robru> ooooh
<sil2100> So this will mean that landings will be slowed down a bit
<sil2100> Ok, I think that's all o/
<slangasek> cool
<slangasek> bhuey: care to say a few words about what you're working on?
<mvo> shall I go?
<slangasek> mvo: go ahead
<mvo> hwe-eol:
<mvo> - work on update-motd
<mvo> system-image:
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/ubuntu-system-image/lp1271684
<mvo> click:
<mvo> - code review
<mvo> - meeting with QA
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/click/coverage: enable coverage reporting (pretty tricky due
<mvo>   to the nature of the gimock.py/LD_PRELOAD tests)
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/click/integration-tests: wrote some high level
<mvo>   integration tests
<mvo> apt:
<mvo> - by-hash discussion
<mvo> - debug/fix lp #1274466 (cachedb corruption)
<mvo> - debug/hopefully-fix lp #1324399 (dpkg pty stdin handling, tricky)
<mvo> - backport https range-request handling to 12.04 (#1157943)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1274466 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt-ftparchive on-disk cache format changed between lucid and precise, results in Packages files with silently corrupted checksums fields" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1274466
<mvo> - check scope for SRU of #1324646 (reenable InRelease)
<mvo> merges/syncs:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1324399 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt-get failing to show progress with yes command" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324399
<mvo> - pyrex, apt-xapian-index, newt, checksecurity, librest, etckeeper,
<mvo>   celery, mutt
<mvo> misc:
<mvo> - sprint Malta
<mvo> - lp:~mvo/update-notifier/use-apt-helper - use apt-helper
<mvo>   download-file to ensure apt proxy settings are used
<mvo> Next:
<mvo> - HWE-EOL work
<mvo> - new apt (if I get feedback from debian)
<mvo> EOF
<mvo> slangasek: you are next I believe :)
<slangasek> correct!
<slangasek> but I'm still reading yours :)
<mvo> *weh* so I need to write less next time :)
<robru> mvo, yes, please write less, you make us all look bad ;-)
<sil2100> Reading is sooo last year
<slangasek>  * sprinting in malta last week
<slangasek>  * onboarding of the Landing Team
<slangasek>  * discussions around plans for go (golang porting resourcing etc)
<slangasek>  * discussions around juju in LTS
<slangasek>  * discussions around system-image for !phones
<slangasek>  * next things:
<slangasek>   * UOS next week, please submit your blueprints
<slangasek>   * more conversations about landing team in foundations
<slangasek>   * trying to do the console-setup merge from Debian, to unblock initramfs-tools; this merge is slightly non-trivial
<slangasek>   * starting the annual 360 review cycle
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> no infinity today
<barry> is infinity here?
<slangasek> barry's turn
<barry> system-image: LP: #1262256; LP: #1286542; LP: #1301995; LP: #1251291; LP: #1279028; LP: #1294273; LP: #1207860; LP: #1324241 (ongoing); LP: #1249347; LP: #1271684; fixes for new psutils & tox; general bug triaging and debugging.  dialer-app py3 branch updating.  will probably be making a new release soon-ish.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1262256 in Ubuntu system image "Pass hashes to u-d-m where available" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1262256
<barry> debuntu: six 1.6.1-2 (for wheels); LP: #1323328; virtualenv 1.11.6 (ongoing); pip 1.5.6-1; ensurepip testing and patch updates; debian bug #744145; requests 2.3.0-1; planning for SRU'ing the pyvenv/ensurepip fixes into trusty.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1286542 in Ubuntu system image "keyring DuplicateDestinationError when updating from custom s-i server" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1286542
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1301995 in Ubuntu system image "system-image can't open its log file if not run as root" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1301995
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1251291 in Ubuntu system image "cli switch to list available channels" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1251291
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1279028 in Ubuntu system image "For debugging purposes, add a --no-reboot option to s-i-cli" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1279028
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1323328 in wheel (Ubuntu) "[MIR] wheel, build dependency for packages providing -whl packages" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1323328
<ubottu> Debian bug 744145 in python-pip "pip crashes on "import requests"" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/744145
<barry> other: building click packages meeting.  system-image on desktop meeting.  new hr system login problems and conference call.  concurrent.futures discussion with didrock; planning call w/doko
<barry> done
<robru> * been evaluating JS frameworks for a web UI I volunteered to build in Malta for the CI team
<robru> * decided on nvd3 for charting, experimented with it by adding a chart to my CItrain backend page
<robru> * http://people.canonical.com/~rbpark/citrain/ go here and hover over "x silos in use" to see it
<robru> * CI train landings, breaking everything as fast and as often as possible ;-)
<robru> â done
<xnox> * reviewing & merging upstart code:
<xnox>  - cgroups to merge next (should be all ready, with all runtime asserts resolved)
<xnox>  - umask fix generates test-suite regressions
<xnox>  - all tests pass & builds pass on nonvirt builders
<xnox> * startpar still hangs even with tasks patches (and on shut-down as well)
<xnox>  - current plan to fix all tasks in the archive first and go from there
<xnox> * malta sprint:
<xnox>  - emulator reboot protocol with ubuntu-emulator (working with serguisens on this)
<xnox>  - vte/gnome-terminal discussions around vte.sh (summary to send to laney/doko/mdslaur)
<xnox> done
<jodh> * foundations-1305-upstart-work-items:
<jodh>   - cgroup+async support: Working with xnox to shake out final test bugs
<jodh>     and get cgroup support landed.
<jodh>   - Working on simplifying JobProcessData to remove nasty valid flag.
<jodh> * upstart
<jodh>   - Implemented lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/bug-1324096
<jodh>   - Trying to squish odd test failure on lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/bug-1302117.
<jodh> * misc
<jodh>   - Released procenv 0.35 to fix FTBFS LP: #1324256 and associated tweaks:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1324256 in procenv (Ubuntu) "FTBFS in utopic: error: 'IFF_802_1Q_VLAN' undeclared here (not in a function)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324256
<jodh>     - lp:~jamesodhunt/ubuntu/utopic/pbuilder/dep8-fix
<jodh>     - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sbuild/+bug/1325896
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1325896 in sbuild (Ubuntu) "dep8 fix" [Undecided,Fix released]
<jodh>     - Discovered that "WARNING:" kernel oops's are ignored by apport
<jodh>       (due to bug #346303). Seems surprising and the Kernel team didn't
<ubottu> bug 346303 in kerneloops (Ubuntu Lucid) "do not generate apport reports for non-critical kernel messages" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346303
<jodh>       seem to be aware that this was still true.
<jodh> ð§
<stgraber> LXC:
<stgraber>  - Processed all outstanding pull requests and patches on the ML
<stgraber>  - Wrote a bunch of patches for python3 binding issues and some longstanding usability issues
<stgraber>  - Cherry-picked all the bugfixes into the stable branch in preparation for the 1.0.4 stable release
<stgraber>  - Attempted to reproduce some kernel crashes related to netfilter & netns, sadly unsuccesfuly
<stgraber>  - Fixed some LXC CI environment issue (including backport of a cgmanager bugfix)
<stgraber>  - Worked on getting unity8+mir working under LXC, made some progress (lightdm spawns u-s-c in the container but unity8 then fails to start)
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> System image:
<stgraber>  - Discussed system-image on server a bit (there will be a session on it next week)
<stgraber>  - Dropped some compatibility code from the server which was causing broken upgrade paths when doing two reverts in a row.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Other:
<stgraber>  - Went through all the SRU and NEW queues, spent a bit of time trying to get oepn-vm-tools-lts-trusty to land, currently stuck on cunit getting accepted in precise-proposed (can someone please do that?)
<stgraber>  - Fixed some ISO tracker build request hang (mix of bad DB state and leftover processes on nusakan)
<stgraber>  - HR stuff
<stgraber> (DONE)
<slangasek> bhuey: your turn
<bhuey> here it goes
<bhuey> Last week, Malta...
<bhuey> -Merge new icedtea sources
<bhuey> -Learned about LP source uploads and building
<bhuey> -Set up crypto keys for signing packages
<bhuey> -Set up and compiled the AMD64 changes on my local machine.
<bhuey> -Fixed patch rejects involving the Sparc architecture zerovm
<bhuey> -Looked at the bug tracker on LP and reviewed a few bugs to get a feel of what's going on
<bhuey> This week...
<bhuey> -Compiled just updated icedtea2.5/openjdk7 sources on a ppc64el porter machine
<bhuey> -Created an account and uploaded all of the build files from that porter to lillypilly.canonical.com
<bhuey> -Examine various revision control systems compatible with debian patching.
<bhuey> -Looked at a build failure on LP regarding some no-execute bit logical in OpenJDK
<bhuey> -Looks trivial to fix but I'm looking around the OpenJDK/IcedTea sources still.
<bhuey> Next week...
<bhuey> -Reviewing the TCK set up
<bhuey> -Push for getting access to the internal VNP for a QA machine involved in TCK certification
<bhuey> -Merge out local changed of IcedTea2.5 and OpenJDK to a new version of IcedTea
<bhuey> -Upload packages to LP, resolve all build problems
<bhuey> -Look at the Makefile and build system more. It's a monster
<doko> I hope you don't fear monsters =)
<bhuey> like you ? :)
<slangasek> bhuey: is that the end?  (Convention is to say '(done)' or such at the end)
<bhuey> done
<slangasek> cool, thanks
<slangasek> anyone have any questions over status?
<bhuey> Sorry yeah, still learning
<slangasek> no worries
<slangasek> [TOPIC] UOS
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: UOS
<slangasek> next week is the Ubuntu Online Summit (formerly vUDS)
<slangasek> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406
<slangasek> everyone, please:
<slangasek> a) make sure you're registered for it
<slangasek> b) figure out if there are any sessions you want to propose for the week
<slangasek> the format is being changed somewhat this time; you're encouraged to use it not just for discussion sessions, but for also presenting things that may already be decided but haven't been communicated out to the community
 * jodh wonders if someone should change the registration default from attending physically :)
<cjwatson> this is guiding towards registering in summit rather than in LP as before; is that right?
<slangasek> (so e.g., things from Malta that we're definitely doing the work on and don't need discussion on because everything's clear, but we should let the community know we're doing)
<slangasek> cjwatson: uh, not sure, sorry
<xnox> cjwatson: i had to register twice.
<xnox> once in launchpad and once in the "summit django"
<cjwatson> joy, ok
<xnox> i'm not sure if the two are linked anymore.
<slangasek> I seem to remember having to register twice in the past
<xnox> was summit rewritten again or something?!
<slangasek> not that I've seen :)
<slangasek> (if it has, I guess I'll get a rude awakening when I try to merge upstream for DebConf)
<slangasek> so currently, sessions proposed for UOS are going into some kind of limbo that I can't schedule from
<slangasek> I'll work with mhall119 to get that figured out today
<slangasek> in the meantime, aside from http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/track/development/, the only session I know about that's pending is "system-images on !phone"
<slangasek> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/development-1406-server-system-images
<slangasek> maybe that gives y'all ideas of other things that need scheduled
<slangasek> (or if not, I'll come around and let you know what you should talk about instead ;)
<slangasek> questions?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else? :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  5 15:43:16 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-05-15.05.moin.txt
<mvo> thanks
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<barry> thanks!
<bhuey> Sausage McMuffin with cheese
<sil2100> Thanks!
<bhuey> later
<stgraber> thanks!
<slangasek> heresy
<slangasek> bacon egg and cheese biscuit
<jodh> thanks
<bhuey> my 2 for 1 beats your bacon
<caribou> thanks
<mhall119> slangasek: you still can't schedule anything?
<slangasek> mhall119: no, I don't have any of the links to do so
<slangasek> I was looking at http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/review/
<mhall119> slangasek: are you logged in?  Does it display the correct username in the top of the page?
<slangasek> which I can load but am also not given a link to anywhere
<slangasek> yes
<mhall119> slangasek: it's not in /review/ because it's already approved
<slangasek> ok, fine
<slangasek> but I still don't have any links for scheduling
<mhall119> what links do you have in the "Quick Links" box?
<slangasek> I don't have that box ;)
<mhall119> but you're logged in?
<slangasek> yes
<mhall119> what username does it display?
<slangasek> 'vorlon'
<mhall119> slangasek: can you take a screenshot of http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1406/ for me?
<slangasek> mhall119: hmm, need to figure out how to do that without PrintScreen
<slangasek> (since I have a goofy Lenovo keyboard and have summarily remapped that key)
<mhall119> slangasek: alt+F2: gnome-screenshot
<slangasek> gnome-screenshot -i, methinks
<mhall119> if you want interactive, sure :-P
<slangasek> mhall119: http://people.canonical.com/~vorlon/no-really-im-logged-in.png
<cjwatson> ok, for a change that ADSL outage was because somebody knocked a cable loose
<cjwatson> sigh
<mhall119> slangasek: you are somehow getting a mobile-friendly version of the site, no menu items and no Quick Links
<mhall119> but that shouldn't happen when there's still space on the sites like your screenshot shows
<mhall119> slangasek: in the short term can you increase the width of your browser window?
<mhall119> anything above 960px should bring that box back
<slangasek> mhall119: hahahathat's horrible
<slangasek> ok
<mhall119> slangasek: yeah, I don't remember who did that code,I think it was aquarius
<slangasek> right, have the quicklinks now, thanks
<mhall119> I can blame him anyway
<mhall119> np
<dholbach> hiya
<pleia2> o/
<elfy> o/
<dholbach> how are you all doing?
<elfy> pretty good thanks dholbach
<YokoZar> Good day folks
<dholbach> Who do we have here from the Ubuntu GNOME team and from the Ubuntu Core Apps/Phone folks?
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  5 17:02:11 2014 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<amjjawad> Hi, I'm here :)
<dholbach> #chairs pleia2 elfy YokoZar czajkowski
<dholbach> ok, let's start with the Ubuntu GNOME team then :)
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Ubuntu GNOME team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Catching up with the Ubuntu GNOME team
<dholbach> amjjawad, how are you doing?
<dholbach> #chair pleia2 elfy YokoZar czajkowski
<meetingology> Current chairs: YokoZar czajkowski dholbach elfy pleia2
<amjjawad> dholbach, hi, thanks for asking I'm trying to be in good shape ... hope all is okay at your end :)
<dholbach> amjjawad, yep, all's good - thanks... did you bring anyone else from the Ubuntu GNOME team? :)
<dholbach> how are things going with Ubuntu GNOME? how was the 14.04 release?
<amjjawad> Sadly, I did not. Tim is our head of developers but he is +10 GMT so he is sleeping right now
<dholbach> ah yes, that makes a lot of sense :)
<amjjawad> Ubuntu GNOME 14.04 LTS was a huge success. At first, it was not yet confirmed whether we should go for an LTS release or not. But we didn't give up and we have done all what we could to gain the title.
<elfy> well done :)
<amjjawad> Ubuntu GNOME was showing a huge improvement lately. I joined the team in July 2013 coming from 2-years with Lubuntu Team.
<dholbach> Brilliant... did that leave you with any work for 14.10 or are things nice and easy now? :-)
<amjjawad> My first challenge was to create a Wiki Area for Ubuntu GNOME which wasn't there. There was only one page. Now, we do have a full Wiki System.
<amjjawad> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/OneStopPage
<amjjawad> elfy, thanks :)
<YokoZar> I just wanted to say that there's been a bit of a rift between upstream Gnome and Ubuntu since Unity, and you are one of our best hopes for bridging that and bringing the best software to users.  Thank you.
<amjjawad> dholbach, we have put so much effort into 14.10 and I'm planning now as the other leader of Ubuntu GNOME to focus on the look and feel this cycle.
<amjjawad> YokoZar, thanks :)
<amjjawad> by the way, we do have a bit of problem with our users. Not all are happy :(
<amjjawad> it is due to the fact that Ubuntu and Ubuntu GNOME can't use the latest GNOME version by default. It seems most of the users are looking for the latest release.
<dholbach> amjjawad, I noticed for example that gnome-settings-daemon could now be updated again since many unity-related changes could be dropped (standard Ubuntu uses a forked version now)
<amjjawad> I wrote this to clear things up: http://ubuntugnome.org/gnome-3-12/
<dholbach> amjjawad, do you know of any other modules which can't be updated?
<amjjawad> dholbach, if truth to be told, I handle everything within Ubuntu GNOME team except Artwork and Technical stuff
<amjjawad> so I can't state anything unless I'm 100% sure
<dholbach> amjjawad, ok... I was just wondering if these are issues which are worked out with the Desktop team
<dholbach> sure, I didn't want you to start speculating :)
<YokoZar> Yes, I'm particularly interested in cases where we basically forked gnome but still kept the package as "gnome-whatever" rather than splitting it off into a separate unity-specific one, as such things basically aren't Gnome but are blocking us from having a newer Gnome :)
<amjjawad> Tim is the best one to answer this and sadly, he's not here
<dholbach> in any case, I'm sure Tim knows the relevant desktop team members, but I'm happy to liaise if necessary
<YokoZar> We don't need to discuss technical details too much, but it's a sort of thing that happened mainly because we as a distro were being a bit careless
<amjjawad> Yes, I'll send him the log so if there is anything, he will contact the correct team for that :) thanks a lot for offering your help and support
<dholbach> YokoZar, well... things like that happen if you have tight deadlines, etc.
<amjjawad> dholbach, I agree
<amjjawad> the 6-month cycle is a burden if truth to be told.
<amjjawad> at first, you think you have the whole time and suddenly, you find out that you don't have enough time so things at the last month will be really crazy
<amjjawad> but I guess that is the fun part of it :)
<dholbach> I merely asked the question to see if there are known problems and if the CC can help with anything
<dholbach> yeah, that's right :)
<amjjawad> what also worth to mention that a year ago, Ubuntu GNOME had no sub-teams but now, we have full set of sub-teams :)
<dholbach> amjjawad, did you see any enthusiasts in your user community who were interested in helping out in any way?
<cprofitt> amjjawad: I enjoy Ubuntu gnome and want to that you and your team for putting the flavor together
<amjjawad> dholbach, the CC people are doing an outstanding job so I'm 100& sure if there is anything, you won't be late :D
<amjjawad> dholbach, one of my tasks is recruiting :D just like I did with Lubuntu
<amjjawad> please see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGNOME/GettingInvolved
<YokoZar> Has Ubuntu's (or Gnome's) release cadence crept slightly to make basing off newest Gnome in the future too difficult?
<amjjawad> I keep this area as simple as possible and I always invite people to join and we're having many interested people to join and help :D
<amjjawad> cprofitt, thanks a lot :) glad you like our system :D
<dholbach> that looks very nice
<dholbach> are you going to have a session at Ubuntu Open Summit next week? :)
<amjjawad> by the way, I also applied for GNOME membership and got it :D
 * mhall119 hugs dholbach for asking that :)
<dholbach> mhall119, ^ I thought you'd plug this much earlier :-)
<amjjawad> Sure, that would be a pleasure. Is this going to be on Google hangout?
<mhall119> dholbach: I was being patient ;)
<dholbach> haha
<dholbach> mhall119, that'd be a first
<mhall119> amjjawad: yes, Google+ on-air hangout with questions over IRC
<amjjawad> Nice :D
<amjjawad> I always enjoy that with balloons
<mhall119> amjjawad: there are 3 tracks that might be of interest to you guys:
<dholbach> amjjawad, yes, all sessions are hangouts and you can either (or both) do a demo session or a planning session - as you like it - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2014/05/28/calling-for-ubuntu-online-summit-sessions/ has all the details
<amjjawad> and it's been awhile since I have done one
<mhall119> 1) Ubuntu Development: where you can talk about how Ubuntu GNOME is put together, make plans for the 14.10 release, etc
<mhall119> 2) Community: Where you can tell people how and where to get involved
<amjjawad> I've been sick lately and so weak so didn't catch up with all my emails. However, I'm charing now so should be back to my full power again hopefully soon :D
<pleia2> amjjawad: glad you're on the mend
<mhall119> 3) Users: Where you can show off your work, tell people the benefits of it, share tips and tricks to make using it easier/more productive, etc
<mhall119> we would very much like to get more Users track sessions in
<amjjawad> pleia2, hi and thanks :) I'm trying to be back to action asap :D
<dholbach> amjjawad, excellent - good to hear your well again
<dholbach> maybe a demo session and some public planning at UOS will attract some more helpers to the team :)
<amjjawad> mhall119, I'm not 100% sure about #1 but #2 and #3 look very interesting :)
<amjjawad> dholbach, thanks a lot :) you have been a great help before with something related to Lubuntu
<amjjawad> and all of you are great people if truth to be told
<mhall119> amjjawad: we would love to have them, UOS is next week though so we'll need to get them confirmed quickly, do you think you can pull some strings within the Ubuntu GNOME developers and community to see who could run them?
<amjjawad> dholbach, yes, we're planning to change our website, and focus on the look and feel this release and also carry on with inviting more people to join us
<mhall119> amjjawad: http://uds.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/propose-a-session/ has instructions for proposing the session, or you can ask dholbach, pleia2 or myself for help if you need it
<amjjawad> mhall119, sure thing, how much time do I have? 2-3 days?
<mhall119> amjjawad: first day is June 10, next Tuesday
<mhall119> sessions are 1 hour long, you can have as many as you need
<amjjawad> I'm sorry, I mean when should I get back to you about who will be in beside me
<mhall119> amjjawad: today or tomorrow if at all possible, so we can get the schedule finished
<amjjawad> I'll make sure to confirm with my team and get back to you but where should I send the email? or just contact anyone of you?
<amjjawad> Okay, I will set my turbo mode then :D
<mhall119> amjjawad: if you follow the instructions I linked to above we'll see it when it comes into summit.ubuntu.com
<mhall119> thanks amjjawad :)
<amjjawad> mhall119, I will bookmark the link and you're more than welcome :D
<dholbach> amjjawad, do you have regular meetings within the team?
<amjjawad> dholbach, I just sent today a proposal to have weekly meeting. This is the only thing that we so far failed to do :(
<amjjawad> mainly, because Tim's time zone.
<dholbach> of course, that makes sense
<amjjawad> While I handle the non-dev stuff, it is highly important for him to cover the dev stuff
<amjjawad> so, we mainly focus on the mailing list
<dholbach> I hope you get around to organising it still, somehow
<amjjawad> Yes, I'll put so much effort into this until I find a way to have a weekly meetings
<amjjawad> this will reduce the time of waiting for a reply.
<dholbach> Does anyone still have questions for Ali?
<amjjawad> But I must say that Tim is the best developer that I have ever worked with for my 3-4 years within Ubuntu Communities
<YokoZar> Speaking from a weekly meeter, I will definitely say it helps
<amjjawad> He is always there when I need anything from him
<dholbach> thanks a lot for putting Ubuntu GNOME together, so thanks a bunch for your hard work on it
<amjjawad> YokoZar, big time yes
<amjjawad> I'm also trying to get Ubuntu GNOME involves more with StartUbuntu
<elfy> dholbach: not from me - I'm fine
<amjjawad> dholbach, thanks a lot for all your support
<mhall119> amjjawad: you guys are doing great work, I'm so glad to see GNOME getting this much attention and support again
<amjjawad> all in all, Ubuntu GNOME is doing great but we need a lot more ... I can't stay still :D
<pleia2> glad to hear it
<amjjawad> mhall119, thanks a lot, appreciate that. We have small but active and great community
<amjjawad> pleia2, thanks a lot and you have been a great support for StartUbuntu too
<amjjawad> we hope to carry on with the good work
<amjjawad> and above all, make our users as happy as possible
<pleia2> indeed!
<amjjawad> we can't make them all happy :D that's not possible as you know but if we could make the most of them happy, that is the target.
<dholbach> amjjawad, all right... thanks a lot for coming to the meeting - keep up the good work! :)
<amjjawad> I also enjoyed now and in the past to work with some of you and it is all great experience. Such experience is doing wonders in real life and with different other projects related to FOSS
 * balloons waves to amjjawad 
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Ubuntu Phone and Ubuntu Core Apps folks
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Catching up with the Ubuntu Phone and Ubuntu Core Apps folks
<amjjawad> dholbach, thanks a million for you and everyone else for reading and for your time - much appreciated
<dholbach> mhall119, do you have a list of people we could ping? :-)
<mhall119> popey
<mhall119> :)
<amjjawad> balloons, hey, will catch up with you very soon hopefully
<popey> oh hai
<pleia2> hey popey
<mhall119> popey: CC meeting to check in on the new app dev community and see how things are going
<balloons> amjjawad, I've been following along.. Stay focused on yourself.. get healthy!
<YokoZar> Hello popey
<popey> Hi all.
<elfy> hi popey
<amjjawad> balloons, will sure do, thanks a lot
<popey> How much pre-amble do you want? â»
<mhall119> popey: do you want to invite anybody in #ubuntu-app-devel in to this channel?
<dholbach> I'm sure there's a lot of other phone/*-apps folks in here who are currently lurking and who have an opinion
<mhall119> s/anybody/everybody/
<dholbach> what is everyone's feeling about how things are going for a community which doesn't have an official device out there yet? :)
<popey> We certainly can. I didn't put a call out because I didn't realise it was open to all.
<popey> Wow, there's a setup.
<pleia2> hehe
<popey> Ok, so we started with zero developers and a call for people to contribute to core apps
<popey> Core apps being some of the things we ship on the developer phone image, but which may or may not end up on a "real" phone image later in the year
<popey> nik90: is one of our developers, welcome nik90
<popey> We put a call out and lots of people replied
<nik90> popey: hi everyone
<elfy> hi nik90
<popey> We have a small but focussed team working on the core apps
<mhall119> hi nik90
<popey> some of them were recently invited to a canonical sprint in malta
<popey> which went very well, for numerous reasons. They all got to meet eachother, us, other teams (sdk, design, online services) etc
<popey> And really sparked memories of UDS of yore.
<popey> Everyone in a room together collaborating on getting stuff done.
<popey> I think it helped to bring everyone together like that.
<mhall119> so the Core Apps project is a new kind of collaboration between Canonical and Community, it's very much directed and integrated with the internal teams and objectives, but it's also entirely done in the open and almost entirely by community contributors
<nik90> The malta sprint was amazing. Got to meet all the people you have been working with for more than a year.
<popey> Indeed, it's very different from anything we've done before.
<popey> Previously Ubuntu would pull together apps from the free software world and package it together.
<pleia2> it's great to see that some community members were able to make it to a sprint, I know a lot of folks are really missing that face time
<popey> Now we're making our own apps
<mhall119> I think we (Canonical's Community team here) have learned a lot from the Core Apps, that we can apply to future collaborations with the community
<popey> The only negative thing I have to say (which could be spun positively if I were that way inclined) would be that I wish we had more people like nik90 â»
<nik90> lol
<popey> We just don't have enough resources. Finding great self-directed qml / js developers and designers is _hard_
<dholbach> mhall119, popey, nik90: do you see things which could have gone better? ie being aware of upcoming design / platform changes or stuff like that?
<mhall119> who wasn't even one of the original core apps devs, if I recall, he picked up the Clock when it didn't have any active developers anymore and then become one of the top leaders of the Core Apps project itself
<YokoZar> I'm particularly interested in things we might be able to fix due to communication
<mhall119> dholbach: recruitment was hard, and still is, we've had a lot of the initial developers leave before the apps were done and have had to keep recruiting more
<popey> The top 3 things on my wishlist are:- More (excellent) designers to design beautiful apps. More developers to implement the apps. Improvements to the SDK to make the previous one easier to do.
<mhall119> I'd +1 that
<popey> YokoZar: In terms of communication...
<nik90> YokoZar: I think the recent engineering ubuntu-on-air hangouts really help the community members know what's going on. Thats quite a improvement from before
<popey> We have weekly IRC meetings with the team, although more recently we switched to hangouts.
<mhall119> having a bigger/stronger/active-er(?) design community would have helped many times over the past year
<popey> and as nik90 says we have also a cross-app hangout on air regularly to collaborate, sync up, announce, call for help etc
<dholbach> nice... the cross-app hangout sounds like a good idea
<popey> Yeah, nik90 was mainly behind that and has been driving it.
<mhall119> having the core apps devs in Malta to sit down at the same table as the Canonical designers seemed to really help open up that communication channel too
<popey> Same with SDK!
<nik90> mhall119: +1
<popey> nik90 brought a list of topics to discuss with the SDK guys.
<mhall119> well, we won't mention "The List"
<mhall119> or, maybe we will....
<popey> The core apps developers are really the first users of the SDK
<nik90> I think all the members who attended the sprint can now comfortably ping the SDK, platform canonical employees on IRC and discuss stuff freely.
<popey> They are finding all kinds of issues, and reporting them professionally to the SDk team.
<mhall119> at any rate, I think the communication channels there will remain much improved because of that face time
<popey> without them using the SDK on a daily basis we wouldn't be where we are. That feedback has been invaluable.
<mhall119> +1000 on that
<popey> Also welcome ahayzen_ who is one of the developer on our awesome Music app.
<ahayzen_> o/
<nik90> hey andrew
<popey> ahayzen_: I realise you've only just arrived, we're just saying how awesome you are, no biggie ã
<dholbach> and in general... what do you feel are the things which could be improved from an organisational point of view? where do you feel it's still hard for somebody to join the community?
<ahayzen_> popey, heh thanks you guys are more awesome though :)
<popey> One thing we have tried to do is increase the velocity of getting merges landed in trunk
<cprofitt> all sounds very good popey
<popey> We have had some lounge around for weeks, and not get landed. That is being addressed. We're constantly on top of them to make sure blockers are unblocked, and fixes land in the phone image
<mhall119> dholbach: I think it's just a general case now of motivating people do contribute to these projects, maybe focusing on providing some low-hanging fruit for the casual contributor to get started on
<popey> We have also had some drive-by contributions
<popey> It's great to see new people come by and fix bitesize bugs
<ahayzen_> the hardest thing for somebody joining is trying to find where to start within a coreapp
<popey> and we try to encourage them to continue to contribute
<popey> but it's difficult to do that without pouncing on them and scaring them away
<popey> (we have done that)
<dholbach> do we have drive-by contributions to Ubuntu phone (apart from the core apps) as well?
<popey> I don't know the answer to that.
<popey> I did a drive by contribution to the SDK recently after someone mentioned to me on irc that something was broken, if that counts ã
<popey> We also lose some people.
<popey> We don't do "exit interviews" so it's hard to know exactly why people leave
<mhall119> dholbach: getting things into the SDK proper is more challenging, because any additions need to go through design and approval
<mhall119> specifically any new APIs
<popey> Sometimes it's the usual family reasons, people getting busy with real life, which is of course perfectly acceptable.
<popey> Other times it's more serious - one of the core apps developers is in Ukraine, where things are "tense" right now.
<dholbach> oh... not only into the SDK - I was more wondering about other parts of what "make the phone"
<popey> I honestly don't know. I don't look at the merges for parts of the stack I am not responsible for really.
<mhall119> dholbach: I think those are just more technically challenging, there's a lot of pieces that all have to work together
<popey> What I have encouraged people to do is just test the apps out and email me directly when they have a problem
<YokoZar> drive-by contributions are fantastic, yet surprisingly rare in a lot of open source
<popey> to overcome the friction barrier of bug filing
<mhall119> dholbach: I'd like to improve the onramp to contributing to Unity 8,but that's out of scope for this topic
<popey> Sometimes people don't know if a problem is a bug or a design feature.
<nik90> The hackathons were awesome in getting drive-by contributions
<popey> Yes!
<nik90> we should keep continuing that tradition
<popey> Hackathons were good for identifying and fixing bitesize bugs
<popey> I'd like us to have an in-person hackathon at some point too, maybe in London.
<nik90> the thing with contributing to unity 8 or other "system apps" is that the designs are not out there like the core apps designs for instance
<popey> True.
<popey> They are there if you ask.
<popey> But you have to go and ask for them.
<ahayzen_> nik90, i started contributing the music-app from one of those hackweeks ... otherwise i wouldn't be here
<nik90> ahayzen_: ooh I didnt know that..I believe riccardo also started like that
<ahayzen_> +1 to hackathons
<popey> Ok, thats good feedback, I'll get another one organised!
<mhall119> nik90: I think it more a case of the designs not existing at all, not just not being public
<popey> We also want to reach out at other non-ubuntu events to try and recruit people to help on core apps.
<nik90> mhall119: true
<popey> Thing is, design are very approachable, and if they have stuff they share it.
<popey> But because they work differently from the rest of ubuntu (mostly in one office) their work patterns differ from ours
<mhall119> yeah, we just need more of them
<popey> Where we share stuff over bzr with our friends in the community, they get up from their desk and walk over to another designer.
<dholbach> do you have people helping out with testing of system and core apps regularly?
<popey> We did find our regular hangouts with design team people were very helpful for the core apps developers
<popey> dholbach: not formally.
<popey> Well, that's not true
<popey> We have a small team of "dogfooders"
<popey> That's mostly me, davmor2 and toykeeper
<popey> We test a bunch of the apps every day.
<mhall119> dholbach: by "testing" do you mean using, or running autopilot tests?
<dholbach> I just thought that if I was interested, and had no idea what to do, I would probably say "I can test stuff and file bugs"
<popey> But we don't cover every use case, we don't have people being monkeys, smacking things with hammers.
<popey> One of the problems is that of hardware
<popey> Testing Ubuntu desktop is easy, you can find a pc (or vm) to install it on
<popey> With Ubuntu for phones, we really need on-device testing
<nik90> actually popey I am sure there are people out there who might not be able to code but might be interested in just testing stuff. We could help get started with the emulator and test core apps on that.
<dholbach> so testing on an emulator is not much help?
<popey> real world stuff like walking down the street picking up a call while listening to music and taking notes â»
<popey> dholbach: not really.
<popey> I mean, there's some testing you can do.
<popey> But the real world stuff really needs a device
<popey> and we are short on those internally, let alone externally
<mhall119> dholbach: I think that for the things we can write down for people to do, we can write an autopilot test to do automatically
<popey> I frequently take my phone to the pub and hand it to people and ask them to play with it
<popey> I also take a notebook and later file bugs on their behalf
<mhall119> I give it to kids :)
<popey> some would say I do the same ã
<mhall119> heh
<dholbach> haha, great :-)
<popey> But again it's hard if I have a phone logged in as me
<popey> I dont want to hand a phone to someone which is signed into fb / twitter / gmail on my accounts
<popey> so there's a bit of preparation required to anonymise the phone first
<dholbach> sounds like we need a guest session for the phone ;-)
<popey> so it's quite a bit of effort.
<popey> haha!
<mhall119> having that Guest session on the phone would be helpful
<nik90> I thought u had more than 1 device popey
<popey> i do
<nik90> among the lucky ones
<popey> and thats still not enough! :D
<nik90> :)
<dholbach> good work everyone :-)
<popey> Any other questions from the cc?
<dholbach> is there anything you feel the CC could generally help with?
<popey> help us get more developers â»
<dholbach> does anybody else still have any more questions? I'm all set
<popey> Oh, another thing I didn't make clear...
<dholbach> popey, do you have enough sessions at UOS which might attract new team members? :)
<mhall119> none from me
<mhall119> dholbach: he just got another email about that :)
<popey> oh, nvm actually.
<elfy> I'm good - was nice to be reading all that - thanks popey nik90 ahayzen_
<popey> dholbach: good idea.
 * dholbach hugs you all
<mhall119> or is about to, I havne't hit "send" yet
<popey> Thanks â»
<dholbach> excellent! thanks a lot everyone :-)
<popey> Thanks.
<dholbach> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business
<dholbach> looks like we don't have anything else on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<dholbach> does anyone else have a topic to discuss?
<pleia2> we're putting out a renewed call for membership board members who can attend meetings at 12:00 for nominees in APAC (and Europe)
<pleia2> will publish on fridge soon :)
<pleia2> we're pretty Americas heavy, so if you're in other regions, please consider it :)
 * mhall119 will re-post on social media
<elfy> +1 to that :)
<dholbach> yeah, if you're living in any other timezone which can easily make meetings at 12 UTC, consider and/or mail your loco team :)
<pleia2> I think that's all I had
<dholbach> Anyone else? :)
<mhall119> nope
<elfy> nope
<pleia2> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  5 18:04:43 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-05-17.02.moin.txt
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone!
<elfy> ty dholbach
<mhall119> thanks everyone
<AlbertoSN> Today I am applying!
<AlbertoSN> :o
<s-fox> who is here for the meeting?
<spineau> o/
<AlbertoSN> Me, for example
<s-fox> Okay, great. Just give us a few minutes please. sorry for the wait :)
<s-fox> can the  board members here for the meeting please let their presence known. thank you
<PabloRubianes> o/
<Pendulum> hiya
<s-fox> cjohnston ?
<cjohnston> hi
<s-fox> okay, great. i shall start :)
<s-fox> #startmeeting 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  5 22:06:26 2014 UTC.  The chair is s-fox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<s-fox> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 2200 UTC meeting for June 5, 2014.
<s-fox> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<s-fox> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<s-fox> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<s-fox> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<s-fox> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<s-fox> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<s-fox> #voters s-fox PabloRubianes Pendulum cjohnston
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes Pendulum cjohnston s-fox
<s-fox> Alright, first up is spineau. Please introduce yourself :)
<spineau> Hello, I'm Sylvain Pineau (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SylvainPineau). I live in France. I'm a perl/python developer and Ubuntu addict since 2006
<spineau> My contributions to the Ubuntu Community:
<spineau> I'm one of the main developers of CheckBox (the System Testing application of Ubuntu)
<spineau> I wrote several tests that have been used by the Ubuntu Friendly community project (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly)
<spineau> I led a session during vUDS 1311 detailing the plan to use a new core (http://plainbox.readthedocs.org) and a new UI built using the Ubuntu SDK (QML) for 14.04
<spineau> I also contributed to various test frameworks over the past years (Mago, Xpresser) to enhance the overall quality of Ubuntu releases
<spineau> I'm a 10k+ user on Ask Ubuntu (http://askubuntu.com/users/32239/sylvain-pineau) where I (amongst other things) try to help people creating Ubuntu Touch applications using the SDK
<spineau> I'm (so far :)) the top answerer in both QML and ubuntu-sdk tags (see http://askubuntu.com/tags/qml/topusers and http://askubuntu.com/tags/ubuntu-sdk/topusers)
<spineau> 4 Ubuntu members left their testimonials (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SylvainPineau#Testimonials) but are not able to join us (different timezones, it's midnight here in CEST)
<s-fox> #voters iulian
<meetingology> Current voters: PabloRubianes Pendulum cjohnston iulian s-fox
<s-fox> Thank you for the intro :)
<s-fox> The board is just having a quick char spineau , please do not be alarmed - Nothing bad :)
<spineau> ok
<s-fox> Alright, I think we're good to go straight to a vote
<s-fox> #vote spineau for ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: spineau for ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<iulian> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from iulian
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<s-fox> ^ PabloRubianes
<s-fox> sorry PabloRubianes
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: spineau for ubuntu membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<s-fox> Congratulations :D
<spineau> Thanks A LOT
<iulian> Congrats spineau and welcome aboard.
<iulian> (Added to ~ubuntumembers.)
<spineau> I can't believe it
<PabloRubianes> +!
<s-fox> Yes, welcome indeed :)
<s-fox> thanks iulian
<s-fox> next up is AlbertoSN
<s-fox> Please introduce yourself
<AlbertoSN> Good night everybody
<AlbertoSN> My name is Alberto Salvia Novella
<AlbertoSN> I'm currently coordinating the One Hundred Papercuts project
<AlbertoSN> Which is a project that gathers bitesize bugs and makes them easily fixable by anyone
<AlbertoSN> I think the best is you just read my wikipage and ask me any doubts you'll have, as there're links to each contribution I have done
<AlbertoSN> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/es20490446e
<AlbertoSN> Thank you!
<s-fox> Is anyone here to support AlbertoSN ?
<AlbertoSN> No, there isn't:  nick-athens30 was to attend, but he finally preferend just to leave a comment
<s-fox> Okay, no worries
<s-fox> sorry for the wait AlbertoSN , just a little discussion going on. again as before - nothing bad or to be alarmed by
<s-fox> we're good now.
<AlbertoSN> :)
<s-fox> #vote AlbertoSN for memebship
<meetingology> Please vote on: AlbertoSN for memebship
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<cjohnston> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjohnston
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<PabloRubianes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from PabloRubianes
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<iulian> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from iulian
<s-fox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: AlbertoSN for memebship
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<s-fox> congratulations AlbertoSN
<AlbertoSN> Thank you very much
<spineau> congrats AlbertoSN
<cjohnston> congrats to both of you. Thanks for chairing s-fox
<Pendulum> congrats AlbertoSN :)
<iulian> I've just added him to ~ubuntumembers as well.
<iulian> Thanks for chairing Foxy.
<AlbertoSN> Hughs for everyone!
<s-fox> THank you iulian , saves me a job
<pleia2> btw in case you haven't seen, we put out a further call for 12:00 board nominees, so hopefully you'll be restaffed soon :) http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2014/06/05/renewed-call-for-1200-utc-membership-board-nominees/
<iulian> ... and my cuppa tea got cold now.
<pleia2> so please feel free to share this link far and wide so we can get there
<s-fox> I'll send out the meeting summary in the morning, unless someone wants to beat me to it
<s-fox> pleia2,  +1 , although this might be the wrong audience since the people here are around at 22:00 :)
<s-fox> Anyway, thanks for coming all :)  Have a great day
<s-fox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  5 22:27:45 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-06-05-22.06.moin.txt
<AlbertoSN> Well, here it's midnight
<AlbertoSN> So I can go to spleep now :)
<spineau> indeed, bye everyone
<AlbertoSN> Bye bye
<pleia2> s-fox: not the wrong audience, a few of you folks are expiring too and we temporarily extended memberships until we finish this
<s-fox> It is nearly midnight here too for me AlbertoSN . Time for me to go and get some sleep :)
<pleia2> so I wanted to let you know, and ask if you could help :)
<AlbertoSN> Who are you asking to?
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-01
<mdeslaur> \o
<jjohansen> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  1 16:33:48 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<chrisccoulson> o/
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> hi
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> We had a number of contributions over the last two weeks
<tyhicks> Stefan Bader (smb) provided debdiffs for trusty-vivid for xen
<tyhicks> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen (otto) provided debdiffs for trusty-utopic for mariadb-5.5 (LP: #1451677)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1451677 in mariadb-5.5 (Ubuntu) "USN-2575-1: MySQL vulnerabilities partially also applies to MariaDB" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1451677
<tyhicks> Gianfranco Costamagna (LocutusOfBorg) provided debdiffs for precise-utopic for virtualbox (LP: #1456553)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1456553 in virtualbox (Ubuntu) "CVE-2015-3456" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1456553
<tyhicks> Andreas Cadhalpun (andreas-cadhalpun) provided a debdiff for vivid for ffmpeg (LP: #1458171)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1458171 in ffmpeg (Ubuntu) "FFmpeg security fixes May 2015" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1458171
<tyhicks> Felipe Reyes (freyes) provided debdiffs for precise-vivid for openldap (LP: #1446809)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1446809 in openldap (Ubuntu Precise) "[SRU] denial of service via an LDAP search query (CVE-2012-1164, CVE-2013-4449, CVE-2015-1545)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1446809
<tyhicks> Thanks to you all for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hopefully today I will finish the big review tools update that will make the store and packages work as well for snappy apps and frameworks as for clicks
<jdstrand> that got delayed a bit last week due to store api changes and LP being down (I wanted to pull down everything from the store and compare existing tools with trunk)
<jdstrand> that's all resolved, just need to go through the output now
<jdstrand> I've been working quite a bit on processes surrounding security support for system-image variants of Ubuntu (eg, touch and core)
<jdstrand> that will continue
<jdstrand> there is work planning with tyhicks
<jdstrand> and I hope to at least start if not finish (for wily) handling seccomp policy upgrades on snappy
<jdstrand> which will then need an SRU, at which point I will also do an SRU for ubuntu-core-security. that SRU work is likely next week
<jdstrand> I have two embargoed items
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> I guess I'm up
<mdeslaur> I'm about to publish an ipsec-tools update for precise
<mdeslaur> and I have some openssl updates that will be going out today that disable export ciphers
<mdeslaur> after that, I'll be working on testing an apache2 update for precise that backports ecc support and better dh handling
<mdeslaur> I also have some qt updates to test
<mdeslaur> I am also looking into a glibc tzdata regression that is causing mercurial to FTBFS on 32 bit platforms
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week
<sbeattie> I'm working through the backlog of outstanding apparmor patch reviews.
<sbeattie> I'm also working on testing for the apparmor trusty SRU
<sbeattie> I still have the gcc pie work on my plate.
<mdeslaur> mmm....pie
<mdeslaur> (that joke never gets old)
<sbeattie> and I have an nbd updtae simmering on the back burner.
 * sbeattie takes a note to use cooking analogies for all his future status reports)
<sbeattie> that's it for me. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> sbeattie: is it still possible to land the PIE change for wily?
<sbeattie> I think so, yes.
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> I'm handling bug triage this week
<mdeslaur> oh, I have something else I forgot to mention
<tyhicks> go for it
<mdeslaur> I plan on uploading bash to wily today with the setuid privilege dropping re-enabled, and I plan on looking at taviso's patch for dash to do the same
<tyhicks> oh cool
<sbeattie> \o/
<sarnold> yay :)
<tyhicks> I plan on helping out with security updates this week
<tyhicks> I will return to working on adding kernel keyring mediation support to AppArmor parser
<tyhicks> hopefully wrap up work planning tasks
<tyhicks> and I have a few embargoed items
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen>  I need to finish up dealing with 2.10 patch review and replies, so we can get 2.10 out the door.
<jjohansen> Finish up with the kernel security sign-offs
<jjohansen> Figure out what we are doing for LSS (if anything)
<jjohansen> Sync up on dconf mediation
<jjohansen> Continue with the kernel patch cleanup
<jjohansen> and I have an embargoed item or two
<tyhicks> jjohansen: can you send your fix for bug #1430546 to the kteam this week? (I'm assuming it is just a git send-email away)
<ubottu> bug 1430546 in linux (Ubuntu) "apparmor kernel BUG kills firefox" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1430546
<jjohansen> tyhicks: yes
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm on cve triage this week; I'm also going to continue going through open openstack issues and figuring out which ones are still needing attention; I'll also try to handle a few apparmor patch reviews.
<sarnold> I think that's it for me
<sarnold> chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I'm hoping for chromium updates this week
<chrisccoulson> Also, I need to spend some time on Firefox - a recent change upstream has broken the way we handle localized search plugins in our packaging
<chrisccoulson> I got an email last week (I think it got sent to everyone with an account on addons.mozilla.org) with details of addon signing in Firefox
<chrisccoulson> It had a link to https://wiki.mozilla.org/Addons/Extension_Signing
<tyhicks> I was about to ask if you have heard anything about that :)
<chrisccoulson> (the tl;dr version - we need to get our addons reviewed and signed)
<chrisccoulson> In Firefox 40, unsigned addons will be disabled (but there'll be a pref to override)
<chrisccoulson> in Firefox 41, there'll be no override
<chrisccoulson> I tried getting ubufox reviewed, but the automatic part of the process compains that we override the startpage (something which is prohibited in addons, but is the whole point of our customizations)
<chrisccoulson> So I'm not confident we'll get that through a manual review
<chrisccoulson> and then, webapps.....
<chrisccoulson> Anyway
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'll be working on stuff from https://launchpad.net/oxide/+milestone/branch-1.9
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: dbarth's team will handle the webapps reviews?
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: who should handle the "Ubuntu Online Accounts" review?
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, I'm not sure. The experience with that addon is so bad currently, I wonder whether it's worth the effort (but I guess that's up to dbarth's team)
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, that would be dbarth too
<tyhicks> ok
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: lets make sure they're aware of the newly released details in tomorrow's oxide meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gajim.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/nginx.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pyfribidi.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gcc-4.4-armel-cross.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/shaarli.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  1 17:06:07 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-01-16.33.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-02
<elacheche> Is there any running meeting right now?
<beisner> o/
<Kilos> nope
<beisner> server team meeting is in ~+1 min here
<Kilos> dont think so
<Kilos> oh yes sorry
<elacheche> Was about to make some tests :D x) I'll do that after the server team meeting than :D thanks beisner for the info :)
<beisner> will wait a min for folks to collect
<jamespage> o/
<beisner> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  2 16:01:41 2015 UTC.  The chair is beisner. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<smb> o/
<beisner> greetings!
<caribou> o/
<coreycb> o/
<beisner> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<beisner> no action items found.  i suspect we'll have a "check your blueprints" action out of today.
<beisner> #topic Wily Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Wily Development
<beisner> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<beisner> we just passed feature def freeze
<beisner> #subtopic Release Bugs
<beisner> hrm.  report is awol.
<beisner> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<beisner> if there were one, it would be there ^
<beisner> i'll take an action item to check into that
<beisner> #action beisner to check into W qa report automation
<meetingology> ACTION: beisner to check into W qa report automation
<beisner> does anyone have any W bugs that we should point out?
<jamespage> not yet
<beisner> if not, onward
<beisner> #subtopic Blueprints
<beisner> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<beisner> er um...
<beisner> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-w-server.html
<beisner> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-w/group/topic-w-server.html
<beisner> ^ is still not a thing fyi.
<coreycb> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-w-server
<coreycb> maybe?
<beisner> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-w-server
<beisner> thanks coreycb
<beisner> ok so here we are, blueprinting, right?  ;-)
<jamespage> we do need to get ontop of blueprints - I'd like to review openstack ones on Friday if possible
<beisner> a reminder to be working on and linking blueprints
<beisner> so there is a separate openstack blueprint tree from the server team blueprints now, fyi
<beisner> ok cruising on
<beisner> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<beisner> hi caribou
<caribou> Hi, yes for once I have something :
<beisner> woot
<caribou> two actually
<caribou> I need some help with CEPH upstart jobs
<caribou> and curtin - disk partitioning
<caribou> who should i ping for those ?
<rbasak> Try jamespage for ceph+upstart, and smoser for curtin maybe?
<beisner> perhaps smoser re: curtin
<jamespage> caribou, I can help with ceph
<caribou> jamespage: ok, I'll ping you sometime in the coming days
<jamespage> ok
<jamespage> any bugs?
<caribou> & already bugged smoser a bit about curtin, will do again
<caribou> jamespage: not sure I created one for that
<caribou> jamespage: I'll email it if I find it
<caribou> beisner: that's all I had
<beisner> thanks caribou - so you'll find or file corresponding bugs and work with jamespage and smoser on those.
<caribou> beisner: yep
<beisner> ack
<beisner> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<beisner> hi matsubara
<matsubara> Nothing new to report
<beisner> alright thanks
<beisner> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> Hi, nothing to bring up right now (again). If there are no questions for us we can move along.
<beisner> any questions for kernel?
<beisner> ...
<beisner> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<beisner> any fun things we need to let people know about?
<beisner> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<beisner> or anything at all?
<beisner> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<beisner> same time, same place, +1 week.
<beisner> and a happy tuesday, all!  i'll see about those reports.
<matsubara> thanks beisner
<beisner> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  2 16:18:13 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-02-16.01.moin.txt
<gaughen> thanks beisner !
<jamespage> ta beisner
<beisner> yw all, now a coffee refill
<caribou> ta beisner
<elacheche> beisner, am from the Memebership board, do yu think that there is any problem if I try some meetingology commands to make sure that I have the good rights to chair the next meeting?
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  2 17:00:05 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Wily
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
<smb> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<sforshee> o/
<henrix> o/
<apw> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We are still tracking the 4.0.x stable series on wily master-next.
<ogasawara> We remain rebased to 4.0.4 and still sorting DKMS testing.  We
<ogasawara> will continue to shoot for an official upload to Wily in the next few
<ogasawara> weeks.  Tracking of the 4.1 series is taking place in our unstable git
<ogasawara> repo on kernel.ubuntu.com.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs June 25 - Alpha 1 (~3 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs July 30 - Alpha 2 (~8 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-cves.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/Utopic/Vivid (bjf)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/Utopic/Vivid (bjf)
<bjf> tatus for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   * Precise - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Vivid  - Verification & Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 23-May through 13-Jun
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          22-May   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 24-May - 30-May   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 31-May - 13-Jun   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  2 17:03:09 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-02-17.00.moin.txt
<ubuntiste-msakni> #startmeeting Testing
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  2 20:42:46 2015 UTC.  The chair is ubuntiste-msakni. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Testing Meeting | Current topic:
<ubuntiste-msakni> #endmeeting Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  2 20:43:09 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-02-20.42.moin.txt
<ubuntiste-msakni> Good! I have permissions on meetingology..
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-03
<MooDoo> hello all
<Kilos> hello MooDoo
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-04
<xnox> pleia2: heya, i will not be able to make a catchup.
<xnox> pleia2: w.r.t. to current developers there are no active developers that i know off, that have upload rights, yet would somehow fail dmb (... or at least fail to get +1 from) requirements for their upload rights.
<xnox> pleia2: there has been little applications lately, but i guess it's because we were frozen.
<MooDoo> xnox: oh let it go will you ;)
 * MooDoo must trying to stop being funny
<barry> o/
<caribou> o/
<jodh> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<infinity> \o
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> hello hello
<bdmurray> \o
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  4 15:05:07 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru cyphermox)
<slangasek> mvo bdmurray infinity stgraber jodh doko sil2100 barry slangasek cyphermox robru caribou
<slangasek> mvo not here? bdmurray
<bdmurray> continued to work on improvements to apport-retrace to check launchpad for packages not available in archive or on ddebs.u.c
<bdmurray> tested issue with apport-retrace and StacktraceSource being inadequate
<bdmurray> wrote a job to backfill system image counters for systems without an alias
<bdmurray> tested backfill system image counters for systems without an alias
<bdmurray> investigation into error tracker oops reports for webops
<bdmurray> checked on error tracker status because of PS4 issues
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have errors_static_url updated
<bdmurray> updated error tracker assets with Wily Werewolf milestones
<bdmurray> foundations bug triage
<bdmurray> â done
<infinity> - Kernel SRU wrangling
<infinity> - Dealt with maas SRUs
<infinity> - General SRU and AA work
<infinity> - Worked on lts-vivid debian-installer upload, and other HWE bits
<infinity> - Validating lts-vivid d-i on 6 architectures
<infinity> - Start on reinstalling arm64 buildds with distro kernels
<infinity> - Got Mir building on ppc/ppc64el
<infinity> (done)
<stgraber> LXC, LXD and other container stuff. Working on features for LXD 0.11 to be released next Tuesday.
<stgraber> 3 of the 4 LXD/container talks we submitted to LinuxCon/ContainerCon were accepted, so dealing with the logistic of all that a bit.
<stgraber> I'm also off tomorrow, then working from Europe next week but only on Monday, Tuesday and Thursday, taking the rest of the week off.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<jodh> * snappy
<jodh>   - selftests
<jodh>     - working on failure scenario tests
<jodh>     - debugging /boot/grub corruption issue.
<jodh> ????
<slangasek> ah, doko is off today
<slangasek> as is sil2100
<slangasek> barry:
<barry> si: LP: #1444347; reviewed lp:~caio1982/ubuntu-system-image/remote-sis-generator-skips-metadata
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1444347 in Ubuntu system image "A file with link count 2 doesn't get both links updated" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1444347
<barry> snappy: several discussions & gdoc reviews
<barry> debuntu: zope.interface 4.1.2-1 (investigating); python-cachecontrol 0.11.5-1; python-persistent 4.1.0-1 and 4.1.1-1; pip 7 dependencies; python-chameleon-2.22-1 (and debian bug #770136 debian bug #752293); enum34 1.0.4-1; python-pex 1.0.0-1; flufl.password 1.3-2
<ubottu> Debian bug 770136 in python3-chameleon "python3-chameleon: unowned files after purge (policy 6.8, 10.8): /usr/lib/python3/dist-packages/chameleon/tests/inputs/__pycache__/*.cpython-34.pyc" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/770136
<ubottu> Debian bug 752293 in src:python-chameleon "src:python-chameleon: missing license information (Python License)" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/752293
<barry> also: chasing weird python3.4 and python3.5 wily promotion failures
<barry> other: python issue 23968 (platform triplets in sys.path)
<barry> --done--
<slangasek>  * worked through autopilot SRU, and the issues with it being built by the train
<slangasek>  * ongoing discussions around go, go shared library support landing upstream
<slangasek>  * triaging new list of incoming requests for ppc64el in 15.10
<slangasek>  * with barry, landed fix to hardlink delta handling in s-i server
<slangasek>  * dropped a transitional channel from the system-image server, because it was moving users from the BQ custom tarball to the community custom tarball with ill effect
<slangasek>  * updated update-notifier to use python3 instead of python2 now that its dependencies are in place
<slangasek>  * tracking of shim signing request to Microsoft
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<cyphermox>  * grub2 OsIndicationsSupported fwsetup entry fix for OVMF_1f. (bug 1456911)
<cyphermox>  * completing the localechooser merge.
<cyphermox>  * UEFI Capsule support
<ubottu> bug 1456911 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu installation/update-grub fail on specific BIOS" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1456911
<cyphermox>  * re-enable audit support for shadow (bug 1414817)
<cyphermox>  * update casper and system-config-kickstart for localechooser.
<cyphermox>  * debugging mark-pending-current with plars
<ubottu> bug 1414817 in shadow (Ubuntu) "[Ubuntu 15.04] Ubuntu should audit account modification events" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1414817
<cyphermox>  * ubiquity update for wily and new installer bits
<cyphermox>  * merge multipath-tools (started)
<cyphermox> (done)
<robru> * Bileto
<robru>  - Implemented disk-backed session store so that more than one worker process function correctly
<robru>  - Added lplib support
<robru>  - Collected all 6 packages that needed to be backported to trusty in a single PPA.
<robru>  - Successful local charm deployment
<robru>  - New test suite with 93% coverage
<robru>  - improved spreadsheet data import on first run
<robru> * cu2d
<robru>  - Improved error message when user tries to build trunk against an older ubuntu series
<robru>  - fixed bug in handling of manual source packages
<robru> (done)
<slangasek> caribou:
<caribou> slangasek: didn't you get what I just pasted ?
<caribou> Bugfix :
<caribou>  - Squid deb proxy startup race condition (Bug: 1456662)
<slangasek> in this channel? no
<ubottu> bug 1456662 in squid-deb-proxy (Ubuntu Trusty) "squid-deb-proxy fails to resolve dns entry : needs to be restarted" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1456662
<caribou>    * Completed SRU
<caribou>  - Ceph interference during kdump-tools execution (Bug: 1461429)
<ubottu> bug 1461429 in ceph (Ubuntu Trusty) "ceph-osd early start interferes with kdump-tools during kernel dump" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1461429
<caribou>    * Identified udev rule as part of the OSD startup problem
<caribou>  - Internal wiki cleanup
<caribou> (done)
<slangasek> cool, thanks
<slangasek> any questions?
<slangasek> barry: what are the snappy discussions you're in right now?  python-related, or something else?
<barry> slangasek: mostly python related
 * slangasek nods
<barry> i.e. next step in python snaps
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> you might all be interested to know that multiple architecture support in scalingstack is coming along
<slangasek> I understand we're able to deploy ppc64el compute nodes in the stack, even if they're not allowed to talk to the network afterwards ;)
<infinity> That bit's a problem with the openstack setup in Boston in general, not ppc.
<infinity> FWIW.
<slangasek> so that's exciting and hopefully we'll see more efficient use of our ppc64el hardware soon... as well as our new arm64 hardware coming online for use
<infinity> (amd64 instances also can't talk to the world)
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> infinity: any new updates on that today, or is that the current state?
<infinity> Nothing new from me.
<slangasek> also, once we have this working on scalingstack, the next step is to do the same in canonistack so that anyone can request a power or arm64 VM when they need it \o/
<barry> nice
<cyphermox> yay
<slangasek> (not in prodstack though, because none of us needs to run our production services on anything but the default architecture in prodstack :)
<infinity> Bah.  prodstack will be 100% POWER by the end of 2017.
<slangasek> ok, but you still won't get to /request/ a POWER compute node in prodstack ;)
<infinity> (Dear irresponsible Linux "journalists", please take the above out of context without noting the sarcasm)
<slangasek> it's actually just going to be the result of linguistic drift
<slangasek> prodstack -> pordstack -> powrdstack
<infinity> porkstack seems a more likely destination.
<slangasek> will our DCEs be responsible for basting it as it slowly rotates?
<slangasek> anyway
<slangasek> anything else? :)
<cyphermox> slangasek: one turn cold side, one turn hot side. you need large pork.
<cyphermox> nothing else for the meeting ;)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  4 15:24:56 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-04-15.05.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<barry> thanks!
<caribou> slangasek: thank!
<jodh> thanks!
<cprofitt> hello everyone
<seb128> hey
<willcooke> o/
<mhall119> CC catchup with the desktop team and DMB starting now
<dholbach> hey hey
<mhall119> dholbach: pleia2 czajkowski elfy
<mhall119> meeting time
<dholbach> yep, pinged the other folks as well
<pleia2> o/
<mhall119> #startmeeting CC catchup with the desktop team and DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  4 17:01:00 2015 UTC.  The chair is mhall119. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC catchup with the desktop team and DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<mhall119> #chair cprofitt dholbach pleia2
<meetingology> Current chairs: cprofitt dholbach mhall119 pleia2
<sabdfl> hello all
<dholbach> #topic Catch up with the Desktop Team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC catchup with the desktop team and DMB Meeting | Current topic: Catch up with the Desktop Team
<willcooke> hi sabdfl
<mhall119> hi willcooke and seb128, anyone else here for the desktop team?
<dholbach> hey seb128 and willcooke - how are things?
<willcooke> mhall119, dholbach - just us I think
<seb128> hey there! things are good :-)
<mhall119> right, so it's exciting times for the desktop team isn't it? :)
<sabdfl> loving the steady stream of news
<seb128> mhall119, it's always exciting time in some ways ;-)
<dholbach> How was the feedback from the last release? Did you get many bug reports?
<willcooke> Release was solid
<willcooke> Really impressive considering the under-the-hood changes
<cprofitt> how is the convergence going? What exciting things should we expect on 15.10 and 16.04?
<mhall119> willcooke: you mean systemd?
<seb128> feedback was mostly good, we got reports, as always, but not too many
<willcooke> mhall119, ya
<mhall119> willcooke: I didn't notice any difference, so very well done to all on that
<willcooke> kudos to pitti and didrocks
<willcooke> cprofitt, 15.10 will see a Snappy based Desktop Next
<willcooke> ready for testing and playing
<willcooke> Good news is that the image is now booting :)
<cprofitt> The only issue I have had so far is the trash launcher opening up an extra file window. More annoying than anything critical. I would agree it was a good launch.
<mhall119> willcooke: what is the play for making that available to people?
<mhall119> will it be an ISO, a disk image, a VM image?
<willcooke> mhall119, it'll be an "image" to start with but there is installer work currently being looked at by the Snappy team
<mhall119> awesome
<dholbach> Did you get offers of help for the brave new desktop world? Or new folks who hangout in the channel?
<mhall119> so everyone knows, I'll be working with will's team this cycle in my capacity on the Community Team to get more information out to users who wants to try out, test, and contribute to Unity 8 and snappy desktop
<seb128> dholbach, not really no
<seb128> I think it's a bit too new still
<dholbach> do you think there's enough contributors could do to help out?
<seb128> we are likely to get more people once things get going
<cprofitt> mhall119: just to be clear is there 'normal' desktop and 'snappy' desktop?
<dholbach> ok..... still a bit too bleeding edge?
<mhall119> cprofitt: there will be both yes
<mhall119> IIRC, the "snappy" desktop will only be Mir and Unity 8
<willcooke> correct
<willcooke> But there are also interesting things going on in the "normal" desktop for U8 and Mir too...
<seb128> dholbach, yeah, I guess so
<mhall119> cprofitt: though don't get too used to calling the previous way of doing things "normal" :)
<willcooke> You can run a U8 session on your desktop
<mhall119> willcooke: you mean the LXC packages?
<willcooke> and also there is work going on to allow Mir to run in a special way on top of X org,
<willcooke> so for example
<dholbach> seb128, let us know when you feel it's the right time to reach out to people - I know that many are waiting for the cool new thing - it'd be great if we could involve some of them :)
<willcooke> If you're developing an app with Mir, you'll be able to test it our there on your U7/Xorg desktop with out changing sessions
<cprofitt> +1 dholbach yes, the desktop side of the house is waiting for the next cool thing.
<seb128> dholbach, yeah
<cprofitt> Not many of us have devices to help with 'touch'.
<dholbach> cool
<mhall119> willcooke: so once people have a running instance of Mir/Unity8 from whatever way they get it running, what can they do to help make the snappy desktop better for 15.10?
<willcooke> mhall119, besides testing and bug reports - I'd like to see folk using the new Snappy tools and starting to get a good catalogue of apps going
<sabdfl> touch devices are rare now, but will become more widespread with win8 / win10
<sabdfl> has there been any discussion of installing snappy apps on a deb system?
<willcooke> some, but not loads yet.  We need to sort out the confinement story, and X org makes that hard.
<willcooke> We could get a container working for that though I expect
<mhall119> willcooke: so far all of our snappy packaging docs have been around cloud/IoT apps, what do we have for packaging apps written with the Ubuntu SDK, and is it ready to publish on developer.u.c?
<willcooke> mhall119, didrocks is working on that this cycle.  If he hasn't already contacted you about it, he will be soon
<mhall119> perfect, thanks
<dholbach> nice :-)
<willcooke> He was at the SDK sprint this week, so he's full of good ideas :)
<dholbach> cool, we should have a chat next week :)
<mhall119> willcooke: do you have a short list of apps targeted for default inclusion in snappy desktop? I know we brainstormed a big list in London
<willcooke> At the moment it looks like:
<mhall119> and is that something community folks can get involved in helping with now, or are there things blocking that work currently?
<willcooke> Gedit, Chromium, Libreoffice, Gimp, xchat
<willcooke> plus all the default apps from the phone
<willcooke> for the first release they will be part of the image
<willcooke> but we want to start moving them out in to snaps asap
<dholbach> good timing that the core apps folks are working on convergence features now :-)
<willcooke> so once the docs are there, and Xmir is in the archive for legacy apps - have at it
<mhall119> dholbach: almost like it was planned that way :)
<willcooke> dholbach, how about that!  It's almost like we planned it ;)
<willcooke> ha
<dholbach> :)
<mhall119> right, switching gears a bit and going back to Unity 7, I saw that Wily has started syncing with Debian and getting the new Gnome stuff, what's the workload expected there and how can people help?
<willcooke> oh, @ default apps - plus the SDK of course
<willcooke> mhall119, good question, so...
<willcooke> we are working on ways to reduce our maintenance overhead every time we sync with upstream Gnome
<willcooke> because it is a fair whack of work
<dholbach> I saw a couple of folks helping out with merges and uploads of new versions from gnome
<willcooke> yeah, we've got a some really excellent help there, especially from the Ubuntu Gnome team
<dholbach> which version of gnome are we going to use this cycle? are we still blocked where some gnome modules can't be updated?
<mhall119> I was just going to ask if they were able to help
<mhall119> how about the MATE team?
<willcooke> dholbach, 3.16
<willcooke> dont think we're blocked, seb128?
<seb128> we are not
<mhall119> always good news to hear
<dholbach> one thing which came up in the past was how things worked with other flavours such as xubuntu and ubuntu gnome - are you aware of any current blockers for them?
<willcooke> mhall119, @ MATE, I think they are using a much earlier version
<seb128> dholbach, no, I don't think so
<willcooke> Shouldnt be any blockers for xubuntu
<seb128> we just updated gtk to 3.16 today
<mhall119> pleia2: ^^
<willcooke> and we're working closely with U.Gnome
<dholbach> cool... I'm happy that this is largely untangled <3
<willcooke> so should be smoothish sailing there
<willcooke> plus we've been doing this for a while now, so the guys have got a good process in place
<dholbach> is there anything where the desktop team could need some help with?
<sabdfl> how are we doing w.r.t. collaboration and coordination around Qt needs for KDE and U8?
<sabdfl> pitchforks and torches aside :)
 * sabdfl updates to gtk 3.16...
<seb128> Qt coordination has been good so far, everybody benefits from getting newer versions and understands that we need to do proper testing and ensure there are no regressions before updating
<seb128> so there are been not many frictions so far
<pleia2> mhall119: I don't know about any of that
<willcooke> dholbach, there might be some interesting work to do with us on the Gtk Mir backend and the Chromium Mir backend
<sabdfl> ok
<willcooke> we're working on it, but it's a big and interesting problem to solve
<sabdfl> glad to hear that
<mhall119> seb128: I recall Kubuntu doing a lot of work to get Qt packages building and CI processes in place for Debian, are we taking advantage of that?
<dholbach> seb128, do you know if the KDE folks also have some regression tests in the archive?
<seb128> mhall119, the more testing is done the better
<seb128> so yeah, them doing extra CI/testing is welcome and useful
<seb128> dholbach, unsure how much they have
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> Mirv would probably know
<mhall119> seb128: I mean are we running the same tests after we import to our archives?
<seb128> I guess so
<mhall119> and contributing fixes or additional tests back to the debian setup
<seb128> mhall119, autopkg tests shipped with the package yes
<mhall119> alright, we're halfway through our hour, are there any other questions for the Desktop team?
<pleia2> I'm enjoying the new weekly meeting summary emails :)
<pleia2> so thanks for doing those now
<dholbach> I think I'm done - thanks a lot Desktop Team! :-)
<seb128> thanks!
<cprofitt> yes, thank you desktop team.
<mhall119> yes, it's great to see those on the mailing lists
<willcooke> pleia2, welcome, and I'll cc the news team too
<pleia2> willcooke: appreciated
<mhall119> #topic Catch up with the Developer Membership Board
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC catchup with the desktop team and DMB Meeting | Current topic: Catch up with the Developer Membership Board
<cyphermox> o/
<pleia2> 06:01:30 < xnox> pleia2: heya, i will not be able to make a catchup.
<pleia2> 06:02:40 < xnox> pleia2: w.r.t. to current developers there are no active developers that i know off, that have upload rights, yet would somehow fail dmb (... or at least fail to get +1 from) requirements for their upload rights.
<pleia2> 06:03:04 < xnox> pleia2: there has been little applications lately, but i guess it's because we were frozen.
<pleia2> ^^ got that earlier
<micahg> o/
<mhall119> bdmurray: Laney micahg ScottK stgraber anyone here for the CC catchup?
<mhall119> hey micahg
<dholbach> hey hey
<micahg> hi mhall119
<dholbach> how are yo all doing?
<cyphermox> yep, I'm here too
<cyphermox> dholbach: doing alright!
<mhall119> cyphermox: ah,sorry, I knew I forgot someone
<cyphermox> no worries.
<mhall119> so how many developer applications have you had over the last cycle?
<mhall119> rough estimate is fine
<micahg> not too many
<cyphermox> oh my. micahg, do you know of a number? there weren't any since I got on the DMB
<micahg> less than a dozen I think
<micahg> probably much less...
<mhall119> micahg: and what areas of the project have those been coming from?
<micahg> well, Xubuntu has had some interest
<micahg> oh, hrm, that might have been before this last cycle
<mhall119> still good to know :)
<dholbach> I could imagine that people in smaller communities have a bit more of encouraging each other to apply for upload rights.
<dholbach> To some I guess it's still somewhat daunting... or just don't think of applying and always ask for sponsorship of their uploads.
<micahg> a little interest from cloud team and one for Firefox as well apparently...
<mhall119> micahg: how about from Ubuntu Gnome or MATE flavors?
<micahg> Ubuntu GNOME has at least one uploader from several cycles back, no one from MATE has applied yet
<mhall119> is anyone asking people who frequently ask for and get sponsorships to apply?
<mhall119> dholbach: do we have any metrics that will show which people we should reach out to?
<dholbach> the developer advisory team unfortunately had to close down because everyone was busy with other things
<cyphermox> I've recommended Martin Wimpress to apply from the MATE team, since I've sponsored a few uploads for him
<mhall119> cyphermox: what was his reaction to that?
<dholbach> but maybe we could generally just ask on the mailing list and see who feels like they got a lot sponsored and have a (maybe private?) chat with them...
<cyphermox> as I recall (it was before christmas), he was interested but wanted to wait to get the flavor built with official isos, I should reach out again and possibly mentor
<cyphermox> that's a fair idea
<dholbach> cyphermox, I'll note it down as something we could maybe plan together :)
<cyphermox> sure
<dholbach> excellent :)
<mhall119> dholbach: thanks for taking that work item
<dholbach> I'm not quite sure... was the question about quorum/voting process sufficiently cleared?
<mhall119> cyphermox: any other plans for this next cycle to try and boost the number of applicants?
<dholbach> it coming up surprised me a bit since I couldn't remember any cases of governance boards running into the issue
<seb128> not sure if that's the right meeting to raise that, but the DMB hasn't reviewed Bjoern's application for libreoffice despite several requests/emails to review that again, it's blocked for over a year and not sure what's the way out
<micahg> the DMB has always had a different standard for votes, most probably due to the seriousness and impact  of rights being granted
<dholbach> could seb128's request be added to the DMB's agenda again?
<cyphermox> boosting the number of applicants> it's not exactly something we've discussed so much, aside from how recent changes in the project may have affected people's motivation to apply. for instance, when you can get things in through the CI train, you don't think as much of applying to get upload rights
<dholbach> micahg, you had a different voting process for different kinds of upload rights?
<mhall119> seb128: IIRC, he was rejected and hasn't officially re-applied, at least that was the conclusion at our last catchup
<mhall119> seb128: has he officially re-applied?
<seb128> mhall119, define "officially"
<seb128> we emailed the DMB asking for application to be re-reviewed
<seb128> the email got ignored
<micahg> dholbach: no, the standard was +4 instead of just a simple majority with quorum present
<mhall119> seb128: whatever the DMB's process is for applications
<micahg> seb128: the process is that he should reapply
<cyphermox> seb128: I haven't seen a new application from Bjoern since I've been on the DMB, he probably should send an email to the board?
<dholbach> micahg, ok, then I misunderstood
<micahg> that's the easiest way for it to be reconsidered
<seb128> micahg, he's not interested to re-apply due to the way he was treated last time
<cyphermox> ah :(
<seb128> so I sent an email asking for his application to be re-reviewed
<seb128> would have been nice to consider it/respond
<mhall119> seb128: so what would you like the DMB to do?
<dholbach> could the DMB still go and check the current state of things for his application and move on?
<dholbach> and give him a headsup?
<seb128> mhall119, re-review his applications without asking him to do whoknowswhatisneeded
<dholbach> as an act of courtesy and in the interest of moving on?
<mhall119> seb128: I'm unclear what you're asking, and perhaps the DMB is too, areyou asking them to review his application as if he has re-applied? Or just give feedback to him on it so that he can decide to reapply or not?
<seb128> mhall119, last time nobody told him clearly what needed to be worked on
<seb128> or changed
<seb128> so we asked for clarification/re-review his application
<seb128> not sure why we just can't get those details
<mhall119> ok, so he needs feedback so he can fix his application before re-applying, is that the case?
<seb128> yes
<seb128> he's not wanting to re-apply without being told what was the issue/wrong with the previous application
<cyphermox> seb128: I'll happily look over his application and work it out with him
<mhall119> micahg: cyphermox: can you guys try and get that feedback to bjorn in the next week or so?
<seb128> cyphermox, thanks
<mhall119> thanks cyphermox
<dholbach> thanks a lot... I'm superhappy if we can figure this out
<cyphermox> ah, I'll try to get that done today or tomorrow, otherwise I'm on vacation for two weeks
<pleia2> thanks cyphermox
<seb128> cyphermox, enjoy the vac ;-)
<mhall119> seb128: if this is still blocked in a month, please let us know so we can followup on it, we don't want this to wait for the next round of catchups
<dholbach> yes, have a good time
<seb128> mhall119, k
<dholbach> is there anything you feel the CC could help the DMB with?
<dholbach> sounds like not :)
<micahg> well, there's one issue we wanted to bring up, with the recent brouhaha with the CC and the KC, it's resulted in at least one developer no longer working on new releases (http://scarlettgatelyclark.com/2015/kubuntu-statement-from-a-not-so-important-kubuntu-developer), who happened to have been the most active uploader for vivid (http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~stefanor/ubuntu-activity/)
<micahg> developer motivation seems to be an issue
<dholbach> micahg, we are working with the KC on resolving this
<mhall119> micahg: yes, we were all very sad to see that happen, we are trying to work on mending the relationship with the KC and moving forward
<micahg> the MOTU channel is hardly active anymore, it seems most of the development focus is in the flavors
<dholbach> micahg, that's true - but I think the decline happened much earlier than the recent developments
<cyphermox> yes, but we do need people to look after $everything_else
<micahg> dholbach: indeed, it's been happening for a while now
<micahg> but I'd figure I'd highlight the recent big blow
<dholbach> for example: we didn't have anyone organising another "learn packaging" event or somebody who said "let's fix some bugs together - here's a list of stuff"
<mhall119> micahg: understood, thanks for bring that up
<dholbach> and I think it's understandable if people work on flavours
<mhall119> micahg: cyphermox: other than mending fences, do you have any recommendations or ideas for boosting motivation?
<dholbach> where the focus is smaller and the set of problems to work on is much more targetted
<dholbach> I think that might be a contributing factor as well
<micahg> yes, but it also has the unfortunate side effect of siloing things sometiems
<mhall119> that might not be a bad thing, of some people focus on their silo, as long as there is another (smaller) group working across those silos
<micahg> mhall119: well, I know that dholbach used to do a lot of activities to help spurn developer interest back in the day, I'm not sure anyones is doing that anymore
<cprofitt> micahg: do you think some of the steam has to do with the recent focus on clound and touch?
<pleia2> micahg: I hope you meant spur :)
<micahg> pleia2: yes, spur
<mhall119> pleia2: he's *very* persuasive :)
<pleia2> hehe
<mhall119> micahg: can the DMB pick up some of those activities?
<mhall119> or give it to one specific person in the DMB
<mhall119> maybe cycling it through each month?
<dholbach> and/or we could bring it up on the mailing list and see who would be willing to organise a small thing soon
<cyphermox> it's something to discuss, we can add it to the agenda
<mhall119> I know that's not really in the DMB's mandate, but if it helps motivate people it's certainly something within your wheelhouse
<micahg> well, another problem is that the word developer in Ubuntu is overloaded, see http://developer.ubuntu.com/en/
<pleia2> indeed, it is confusing
<mhall119> micahg: yeah, this is true
<mhall119> what are our options for clearing that up?
<micahg> there's nothing there's nothing really on that side about the archive I believe which is the purview of the DMB
<micahg> wow, :9
<micahg> ugh
<dholbach> I think on the pages where we introduce people to our community, we do a passable job of explaining that developing can be everything including writing an app or integrating a patch or working on CI infrastructure or anything else
<dholbach> and if not, we should fix it :)
<mhall119> is there a similar site for distro-development?
<dholbach> packaging.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> it's for documentation about ubuntu development
<dholbach> and they're both linked from community.ubuntu.com
<dholbach> maybe we can all (later on) have a look at the pages in question and see if we explain the different routes of development well enough
<pleia2> sounds good
<mhall119> dholbach: we can maybe put something up under https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/community/ as well
<mhall119> that way it would turn up in searches on developer.u.c too
<dholbach> ah yes
<dholbach> I'll file a bug
<mhall119> dholbach: can you and I work together on that?
<dholbach> sure
<dholbach> bug 1462049 :)
<ubottu> bug 1462049 in Ubuntu Developer Portal "Add a "maybe you're looking for" section" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1462049
<mhall119> alright, we're over time, any other questions for or from the DMB?
<dholbach> I think I'm done
<micahg> I think that's it, thanks
<dholbach> excellent - thanks a lot everyone!
<elfy> thanks DMB - I turned up late but managed to catch up a short while ago :)
<mhall119> oh, one last thing, do we still do Developer Week online classes?
<cyphermox> thanks!
<cyphermox> mhall119: I think we should
<dholbach> I don't think we did ubuntu app developer week or developer week in a while
<dholbach> we could have added a couple of classes to the last UOS
<mhall119> cyphermox: it would need some folks to step up and organize it
<cyphermox> but as I recall seeing developer week got kind of merged in open week or whatever it was called last time
<dholbach> especially once git fully lands on LP, it'll be good to have a session about the workflow and everything
<mhall119> cyphermox: right, and I think we tried to run it like UOS
<cyphermox> possibly
<dholbach> let's chat about it when we're going to talk about the other idea :)
<cyphermox> it's one more thing that needs reaching out on -devel@ perhaps, and see who's interested.
<dholbach> yes
<cyphermox> sure
<mhall119> cool, if we can get volunteers we can make that happen again
<mhall119> alright, thanks micahg and cyphermox
<dholbach> yes, thanks a bunch!
<mhall119> #topic Any other business
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<mhall119> we're already over-time, but is there any other topic anybody wanted to bring up?
 * mhall119 hopes no other team is waiting on this channel
<dholbach> nothing on the agenda page at least
<mhall119> alright, thanks everyone!
<dholbach> all right my friends - I'll start into the evening activities! have a good one!
<mhall119> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  4 18:13:06 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-04-17.01.moin.txt
<micahg> thanks
<olive> hello
<olive> maybe I'll be late
<sarnold> olive: looking for this? http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-04-17.01.moin.txt
<toddy> olive: you are looking for this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards#A20:00 ?
<toddy> that is in an hour
<toddy> other timezone
<Kilos> yip first meeting is in an hour with 4 applicants
<Kilos> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards#A22:00
<sarnold> ah :D
<Kilos> that shows them all
<Kilos> the 20.00 timeslot will still be added to the fridge
<cm-t> yes, in 55min !
<cm-t> You can come say hi if you want ;)  visio there, we are in ubuntu hour for the application
<cm-t> https://meet.jit.si/UbuntuMember
<cm-t> (work with chromium)
<Kilos> aw i cant do live
<Kilos> visio
<ahoneybun> I'll be around for the 22 UTC meeting
<Kilos> ty ahoneybun
<ahoneybun> np
<Kilos> cm-t  please make my apologies, my mobile connection cant do visio
<cm-t> Kilos: no problem ;)
<cm-t> maybe you had enought connection to see my face ;)
<Kilos> let me just get more data and ill try
<cm-t> olive has arrived !!!
<winael> there's visio in irc ??? Oo
<cm-t> winael: as we are in an ubuntu hour in Paris to celebrate explain how ububuntu member work, we dicided to open a visio for those who want to see our face
<cm-t> https://meet.jit.si/UbuntuMember
<cm-t> you can join ;)
<cm-t> we have beers
<Kilos> hehe
<cm-t> work with chromium
<cm-t> ,)
<cm-t> if you don't see my face winael , means you need to try with chromium, not firefox
<cm-t> also, accept the cam/micro
<olive> _o/
<cm-t>       \o_
<winael> I was with my baby sorry
<winael> I'll try
<winael> ok I'm connected to the others french members \o/
<olive> Camille is with us http://www.commentcamarche.net/news/5859144-ubuntu-beaucoup-plus-intuitif-que-windows
<YoBoY> Hi
<Kilos> hi YoBoY
<winael> Hum meet.jit.si doesn't work with oxyde on the phone, maybe due to the apparmor restriction
<Kilos> eats mobile data too
<winael> I'll try later to build a webapp and add the profile mic and cam to try
<winael> Kilos, in France we have mobile carrier that offer lot's of data (3 Go) and it could be great when you are closed to an open WiFi connexion
<Kilos> ah , its expensive in south africa
<elacheche_anis> ki7mt, a chage in the last minute ;)
<cm-t> I think winael is talking about mobile.free.fr which offer a 20â¬ (or 15â¬ if you have the box) monthly fees
<cm-t> with 4G
<cm-t> for 20 Go
<Kilos> nice
<cm-t> or 3G with 3Go
<cm-t> I think so ;)
<winael> cm-t, but there's no 4G ubuntuphone for now :'(
<ki7mt> elacheche_anis, Yes, apologies, was to accommodate my package sponsor attending, as he is in California
<cm-t> winael: worng !! Meizu MX4 !
<winael> now MX4 in europe woill arrive in few weeks.
<winael> and the time to receive it... so no Ubuntuphone with 4G in France before July
<elacheche_anis> ki7mt, I have no problem with that.. I need to apologize because I missed the other meeting..
<cm-t> 3 minutes !
<cm-t> olive: get ready
<ki7mt> elacheche_anis, If I have a pence for every meeting I missed, well, lets just say I could give allot of dosh to charity :-)
<elacheche_anis> :D
<Kilos> :)
<olive> hmmm what is happening her ? :)
<elacheche_anis> This will be my first time chairing a meeting with the membership board, so please take it easy on me :D
<olive> here*
<elacheche_anis> olive, will review you're membership application in minutes dude :D
<elacheche_anis> Bonsoir :)
<cm-t> olive: https://meet.jit.si/UbuntuMember !
<toddy> elacheche: \o/
<toddy> elacheche_anis: \o/
<Kilos> o/
<Kilos> evening all , and hi to the new aplicants
<cm-t> hi !
<olive> hello my name is olive and I don't speak english. ;)
<Kilos> lol
<olive> my wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OlivierFraysse
<elacheche_anis> olive, I can translate for you, let's just start
<cm-t> i will help him, we are sit close to him (ubuntu hour, we are ~10 there )
<elacheche_anis> Quite please :D We are starting the meeting :D
<elacheche_anis> Un instant olive on a pas encore commencÃ© :D
<olive> Ã§a fait 11 ans que je fais partie de l'asso ubuntu francophone
<Kilos> elacheche_anis  start the bot
<quesh> :)
<olive> ah ok
<elacheche_anis> #startmeeting 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  4 20:02:01 2015 UTC.  The chair is elacheche_anis. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<elacheche_anis> Ok, who is here for the meeting?
<idrogn> hi
<Kilos> o/
<olive> ok. hello :)
<toddy> o/
<YoBoY> o/
<winael> o/
 * cm-t I will be after olive , then karum_ , then winael 
<popey> o/
<olive> c'est cm-t qui m'a obligÃ© Ã  candidater ici
<olive> Ã§a sert Ã  quoi ? ;)
<elacheche_anis> Hello and welcome to the Membership Board meeting! The wiki page for
<elacheche_anis> the Review Board is available here:
<elacheche_anis> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards. We will attempt to get
<elacheche_anis> through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list
<elacheche_anis> before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire
<elacheche_anis> list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up
<elacheche_anis> where we left off. The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go
<elacheche_anis> through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application
<elacheche_anis> (FIFO). Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and
<elacheche_anis> provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the
<elacheche_anis> members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if
<olive> I'm joking
<elacheche_anis> needed, ask the applicant further questions. During this time it is
<elacheche_anis> encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for
<elacheche_anis> the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review
<elacheche_anis> Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading
<elacheche_anis> wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to
<elacheche_anis> vote.
<elacheche_anis> Let's start
<elacheche_anis> #topic olive
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: olive
<olive> Ok. so my name is olive
<elacheche_anis> olive, introduce yourself please, and give as a link for wiki and LP
<olive> I'm french, I don't speak english
<olive> my wiki is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OlivierFraysse
<olive> and I love you
<Kilos> ty
<elacheche_anis> #voters hggdh wxl toddy belkinsa elacheche_anis popey PabloRubianes mapreri Kilos
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: belkinsa
<meetingology> Current voters: Kilos PabloRubianes belkinsa elacheche_anis hggdh mapreri popey toddy wxl
<olive> (I know some words in english. yeah)
<olive> my LP : https://launchpad.net/people/olivier.fraysse
<elacheche_anis> olive, prÃ©sent toi en FranÃ§ais, je vais essayer de traduire :)
 * cm-t olive have also a french wiki, with more detailled actions https://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/utilisateurs/olive
<olive> bah heu, je suis je crois le plus ancien des membres de l'asso ubuntu francophone
<toddy> nice event: https://2015.rmll.info/?lang=fr
<olive> et donc un des plus anciens de la communautÃ© que j'ai vu naitre
<cm-t> he say: he think he is the most ancient member of our loco right now
<Kilos> lol
<cm-t> (ubuntu-fr)
<Kilos> age?
<cm-t> ancient not in age, ancient as he was in the first there
<Kilos> aha
<olive> j'ai aidÃ© l'asso Ã  Ãªtre prÃ©sent dans des Ã©vÃ©nements de promotion du Libre et d'Ubuntu, essentiellement Ã  Paris (France)
<cm-t> (sorry my english is not perfect too ;) )
<winael> he saw us born
<Kilos> np
<olive> :)
<winael> he helped the Loco to be present in FLOSS events
<olive> et j'ai mangÃ© des croissants avec Mark Shuttleworth un jour
<cm-t> he says: I've help ubuntu-fr to be on event of freesoftware advocating and ubuntu  mostly in Paris
<winael> essentialy based in Paris
<olive> enfin, devant lui. (lui il buvait de l'eau)
<elacheche_anis> OK than, anyone have questions for olive
<toddy> yes, there are many events on your wikipage you have supported. nice.
<popey> Some good testimonials there
<cm-t> he said: we took a croissant and pain aux chocolat with sabdfl in 2014
<Kilos> olive  can you keep up the good work till you are ancient in age too?
<cm-t> popey: he is the historic member of ubuntu-fr
<elacheche_anis> OK.. Merci olive et les gars pour la traduction :D On passe aux questions :)
<cm-t> Kilos: I didnt mean he is ancient in age !! but in the team, sorry for the wrong wording
<winael> he is not ancient in age :) but he help to create the LoCo
<Kilos> nono thats cool, i asked will he keep up the good work till he is old too
<elacheche_anis> olive, Kilos veux savoir si tu pense que tu restras active lorsque tu sera plus agÃ© (comme lui) x)
<toddy> olive: do you have a blog on ths planet? http://planet.ubuntu-fr.org/
<olive> Yes I do
<olive> I'm 32 years old
<Kilos> good then 30 more to go
<Kilos> keep it up
<olive> no I don't
<wxl> ok what did i miss?
<elacheche_anis> ochosi, Kilos dit qu'il te reste encore 30 :D
<olive> but I write articles in ubuntu-party.org
<elacheche_anis> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<popey> +1
<Kilos> +1
<popey> uh
<popey> is the bot working?
<toddy> ah, cool, olive
<elacheche_anis> toddy,
<popey> oh, you haevn't called a vote
<toddy> +1 good work
<cm-t> he also post on twitter with @ubuntuparty
<elacheche_anis> popey, we didn't start the vote yet, am just configuring the bot
<elacheche_anis> OK.. Anyone here to support olive?
<cm-t> i do !!
<elacheche_anis> Anyo,e else have questions or we vote?
<winael> Yeah I'm I
<olive> I do !!
<olive> :p
<idrogn> I do
<quesh> i do
<elacheche_anis> Nice support squad :)
<toddy> lets vote :)
<YoBoY> I do !
<cm-t> mafia-fr
<wxl> vote!
<YoBoY> in the place :D
<elacheche_anis> #startvote For olive Membership?
 * cwayne1 is around if we need more voters btw
<elacheche_anis> +1
<Kilos> +1
<popey> that didnt start the vote did it?
<wxl> no
<elacheche_anis> don't think so :/
<Kilos> ai!
<olive> lol
<Kilos> ty cwayne
<elacheche_anis> #vote For olive Membership?
<meetingology> Please vote on: For olive Membership?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<elacheche_anis> Here we go :D
<elacheche_anis> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elacheche_anis
<toddy> :D
<Kilos> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Kilos
<toddy> +1 good work olive. thanks for the good Ubuntu Support
<meetingology> +1 good work olive. thanks for the good Ubuntu Support received from toddy
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<wxl> +1 for acting as a member without being one!
<meetingology> +1 for acting as a member without being one! received from wxl
<elacheche_anis> Anyone else?
<elacheche_anis> And there is +2 from belkinsa & PabloRubianes (ML)
<elacheche_anis> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: For olive Membership?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elacheche_anis> Congrats olive
<popey> \o/
<cm-t> \o/
<quesh> :)
<YoBoY> Good work olive, FINALY After sooooooo long time :D
<winael> congrats olive \o/
<olive> thanks !
<Kilos> olive  welcome to the team
<idrogn> :)
<cm-t> Bien jouÃ© !
<olive> See you at the next ubuntu party ;)
<quesh> \o/
<cm-t> yeah, everybody is welcome at our french ubucon !
<YoBoY> +42
<elacheche_anis> Will discuss that later :D
<elacheche_anis> cm-t, is next
<wxl> congrats olive!!!
<elacheche_anis> #topic cm-t
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: cm-t
<winael> \o/ cm-t \o_
<cm-t> hi
<olive> hihi
<elacheche_anis> cm-t, introduce yourself, and paste LP & wiki link please :)
<toddy> hi cm-t
<cm-t> Hi, My name is Rudy also knowd as cm-t, Im 27 and live in Paris. I'm with ubuntu since 2008 !
<cm-t> this is my wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/~cm-t
<cm-t> and my lp is https://launchpad.net/~cm-t
<elacheche_anis> Any questions for cm-t ?
<elacheche_anis> Meanwhile let the guys checkout the links :)
<wxl> holy contributions batman O_O
<cm-t> Ive opened my page for years I think, it help to gather informations, even small one
<toddy> you have a good google+ page: https://plus.google.com/+cmtarudy/posts
<wxl> i love how involved you are in marketing ubuntu, yet also working hard on solid contributions to improving it
<cm-t> toddy: thank !
<cm-t> wxl: thank !
<wxl> as a loco council member, i'm excited to hear more about ubuntu-party
<cm-t> yes, I think we lack of online presence, so I started my g+ for that
<wxl> (meaningm, in the future, at least) :)
<cm-t> As I said in my wiki, I should open my blog
<toddy> cm-t: how many school projects do you have made?
<cm-t> toddy: All my school project I did were made on ubuntu, even for .NET and all
<elacheche_anis> Il veut savoir combien de projets?
<toddy> cm-t: and was it a success?
<cm-t> but there is only 1 project that was for ubuntu, the oneconf in ubiquity
<cm-t> toddy: yeah !
<cm-t> toddy: I forgot to mention, I was in the ubuntu club I created at my school
<cm-t> 5 people went on ubuntu in my classroom
<toddy> cool
<cm-t> I hope they are still using it !
<elacheche_anis> That's nice :)
<elacheche_anis> Any other questions?? People here to support cm-t ?
<idrogn> I do
<winael> I do
<quesh> i do
<olive> I do !
<elacheche_anis> All The ubuntu-fr squad is here tonight :D
<toddy> :D http://spreadubuntu.org/fr/material/unusual/ubuntu-robots nice work
<YoBoY> I support cm-t
<olive> as a ubuntu member, I really do.
<cm-t> toddy: thank again !
<quesh> no, only a few ones
<elacheche_anis> Time to vote then..
<elacheche_anis> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<cyphermox> fwiw, I'm here to cheer for cm-t as well :)
<cm-t> we are only 10 there
<cm-t> indeed we are more than 10 ;)
<elacheche_anis> #vote For cm-t Membership?
<meetingology> Please vote on: For cm-t Membership?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<cm-t> hey cyphermox !
<cm-t> nice to meet you there :D
<elacheche_anis> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elacheche_anis
<Kilos> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Kilos
<toddy> +1 good work. that is very nice to see: http://spreadubuntu.org/fr/material/unusual/ubuntu-robots <- I have bookmarked it.
<meetingology> +1 good work. that is very nice to see: http://spreadubuntu.org/fr/material/unusual/ubuntu-robots <- I have bookmarked it. received from toddy
<elacheche_anis> popey, wxl !
<popey> Easy...
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<popey> :)
<elacheche_anis> Let's don't forget about PabloRubianes & belkinsa votes â +2 :D
<elacheche_anis> No more votes?
<Kilos> wxl  ?
<wxl> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from wxl
<wxl> sorry
<wxl> lunch
<elacheche_anis> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: For cm-t Membership?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cm-t> bon apÃ©tit wxl
<elacheche_anis> Welcome aboard cm-t :)
<cm-t> \o/
<cm-t> thank you all !!
<YoBoY> Congrats cm-t :D
<idrogn> :)
<winael> sahtein wxl
<quesh> \o/
<popey> \o/
<olive> woot
<Kilos> congrats cm-t  welcome
<toddy> Congrats cm-t!
<wxl> congrats you deserve it cm-t!
<winael> \o/ cm-t \o-
<cm-t> drinking my beer then ! https://meet.jit.si/UbuntuMember
<elacheche_anis> #voters marcoceppi
<meetingology> Current voters: Kilos PabloRubianes belkinsa elacheche_anis hggdh mapreri marcoceppi popey toddy wxl
<elacheche_anis> The next one is karum_
<elacheche_anis> Are you here?
<marcoceppi> o/
<karum_> yes
<karum_> hi
<elacheche_anis> #topic karum
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: karum
<karum_> my english is so bad so i'll speak french
<elacheche_anis> Welcome karum_ , please introduce yourself and paste a link for LP & Wiki, I'll translate
<cm-t> I ll traduct!
<karum_> https://launchpad.net/~thomas-joossen-gmail
<cm-t> translateâ¦
<karum_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/~karum
<karum_> je m'appelle thomasj'ai48 ans,
<karum_> j'utilise ubuntu depuis 2006, mais linux depuis 18 ans
<cm-t> Hi, my name is thomas and I'm 48 !
<cm-t> he says: I use ubuntu since 2006 but Linux for 18years
<Kilos> nice
<elacheche_anis> Any questions for karum_ ?
<olive> Are you developper ?
<quesh> :)
<toddy> karum_: what do you have made on the Ubuntu Partys? what activities?
<mapreri> umh
<karum_> non, je ne suis pas developeur,
<cm-t> no, i'm not a developer
<mapreri> does every ubuntu member have voting rights by default?
<elfy> mapreri: no - just the board
<popey> well, depends what for
<elacheche_anis> mapreri, no only the membership board can vote
<popey> every ubuntu member gets to vote for members on the community council
<mapreri> elfy: then i'm wondering why i ended up in the list of #voters above :)
<Kilos> hi elfy
<karum_> je me suis ocuupÃ© de la sonorisation des confÃ©rences
<popey> hah
<popey> elacheche_anis: ^
<cm-t> he says: I manage the sound for conferences
<cm-t> during ubuntu parties
<karum_> et depuis 2 ans je m'occupe de la restauration des bÃ©nÃ©voles
<elacheche_anis> myfault.. :(
<cm-t> he says: and since 2 years I manage the meals for our volounteers
<wxl> karum_: outside of helping to support ubuntu-fr events, what other contributions have you made/plan to do?
<cm-t> ( 2 years = 4 ubuntu party)
<cm-t> ( 1 ubuntu party = ~100 volounteers)
<mapreri> elacheche_anis: the fact is: i can't see where you told meetingology to add me, that is
<mapreri> anyway, /me vanishes again o/
<elacheche_anis> #voters all
<meetingology> Everyone can now vote
<toddy> karum_: which distribution do you use before Ubuntu?
<olive> karum is a very good cooker !
<karum_> je parle d'ubuntu dans mon entourage, au travaille
<elacheche_anis> #voters Kilos PabloRubianes belkinsa elacheche_anis hggdh marcoceppi popey toddy wxl
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: belkinsa
<meetingology> Current voters: Kilos PabloRubianes belkinsa elacheche_anis hggdh marcoceppi popey toddy wxl
<olive> (for the ubuntu party)
<mapreri> :)
 * elacheche_anis didn't add mapreri :D meetingology is bugging
<karum_> toddy: j'utilisais mandriva
<cm-t> he says : I talk about ubuntu to the people I meant in my life, at workâ¦
<cm-t> he says: I sued to run Mandriva before ubuntu
<Kilos> word of mouth is where i learned about ubuntu
<elacheche_anis> So.. Any other questions for karum_ ?
 * cm-t I add: he saved at least 1 webcafÃ© by joinning the team 
<elacheche_anis> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<wxl> karum_: outside of helping to support ubuntu-fr events, what other contributions have you made/plan to do?
<karum_> je participe aux autres Ã©vÃªnements publics d'ubuntu: festivals par exemple
<elacheche_anis> #chair elacheche_anis
<meetingology> Current chairs: elacheche_anis
<cm-t> he says: I join other event of ubuntu-fr like the webcafÃ© in music festival
<cm-t> he says (typing)
<karum_> j'ai fait quelques propositions de traduction sur launchpad
<cm-t> he says: I've made some translate on lauchpad
<cm-t> launchpad
<wxl> translations are super important
<Kilos> very
<idrogn> I may add that we (as french Loco council) want him to join our board
<wxl> i think that's one of the best thing you can do as a non-english-speaking contributor
<Kilos> i agree, we will need fench translations for africa soon
<Kilos> french
<YoBoY> Translator teams always need help, so many packages descriptions to do yetâ¦ :D
<elacheche_anis> Nice work karum_
<toddy> YoBoY: Yes, I know
<wxl> k well i for one am satisified and ready to vote
<popey> same
<Kilos> same
<elacheche_anis> Good
<elacheche_anis> #vote For karum_  Membership?
<meetingology> Please vote on: For karum_  Membership?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<popey> Excellent!
<elacheche_anis> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elacheche_anis
<wxl> +1 keep up the good work
<meetingology> +1 keep up the good work received from wxl
<Kilos> +1keep it up
<meetingology> +1keep it up received from Kilos
<cm-t> NB; idrogn is talking as our president
<popey> Really great to see all these long standing contributions
<popey> \o/
<toddy> +1 next time, when I am in french I hope I am on an ubuntu party and you cook something :)
<meetingology> +1 next time, when I am in french I hope I am on an ubuntu party and you cook something :) received from toddy
<cm-t> \o/
<cm-t> Bienvenue !!!
<wxl> hahah i concur toddy :)
<elacheche_anis> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: For karum_  Membership?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elacheche_anis> Welcome aboard karum_ :)
<karum_> Hi hi hi
<YoBoY> Congrats karum_ :D
<winael> \o/ karum_ \o<
<Kilos> welcome to the team karum_
<idrogn> :)
<wxl> congrats karum_ !
<elacheche_anis> winael is next, you're here?
<quesh> \o/
<winael> Yeah I'm
<karum_> thanks a lot
<olive> woooot !
<elacheche_anis> ping winael
<winael> I'm here
<winael> don't you see me ?
<Kilos> yes
<marcoceppi> winael: we see you!
<elacheche_anis> Now I do :F
<elacheche_anis> :F
<elacheche_anis> :D
<wxl> holy ubuntu uniform winael :)
<popey> hah
<wxl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Winael?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=image20150422_132607648.png
<elacheche_anis> #topic winael
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: winael
<winael> yeah it was a normal working day
<elacheche_anis> winael, introduce yourself please, and paste a link of your LP & Wiki page :)
<winael> I'm almost always dressed like that
<wxl> what about like this? https://launchpadlibrarian.net/101499863/photo_64x64.jpg
<wxl> hahahah
<winael> So I'm Winael, a 33 years old of French LoCo
<winael> I join the team in 2008 contributing on the Ubuntu Party
<winael> Since then I still on the Ubuntu Party team, to promote Ubutu to visitor, demo Unity (I kind of the expert) and demystify smart scope services
<wxl> ahhh unity expert, nice
<winael> I interview Mark Shuttleworth in 2009 for Oxyradio during the UP
<wxl> you've done things with juju and the phone, too, no, winael ?
<winael> this is my LP and wiki page : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Winael
<winael> https://launchpad.net/~vinzjobard
<winael> https://plus.google.com/+VincentJOBARD/posts
<winael> I transcript and translate the video what is Juju and what is Maas
<wxl> very nice!
<elacheche_anis> Awesome :)
<Kilos> well done
<elacheche_anis> Any questions?
<winael> I promote Ubuntu on other events like Solutions Linux, Openworld Forum
<popey> How are you not already a mamber winael â½
<winael> no popey
<elfy> popey: I was convinced he was
<popey> Madness :)
<winael> I begin my application last year but finished it this week
<winael> I'm a lucky Ubuntuphone Insider as well
<Kilos> rahter late than never
<marcoceppi> better now than never, too ;)
<popey> Yes indeed.
<winael> I had the chance to visit Canonical office with a gret guide in february
<wxl> popey: that seems to be the problem with a lot of the major players in ubuntu-fr which is why we have such a rash of them today
<wxl> yep
<winael> And now I'm trying to promote Snappy
<wxl> winael: on IoT devices?
<winael> I made a presentation during the Ubuntu Party and I'll do an other during an hacker showroom Passageenseine
<elacheche_anis> Nice work winael :)
<wxl> agree
<winael> I'm trying to present the convergence part, that it will link the phone the desktop the cloud and the IoT
<elacheche_anis> Any other questions? Or we can vote?
<wxl> winael: very cool! i have snappy on my raspberry pi 2 :)
<wxl> ready to vote
<Kilos> vote
<elacheche_anis> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<elacheche_anis> #vote For winael Membership?
<meetingology> Please vote on: For winael Membership?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<winael> I have to develop some skills to animate workshop on snappy
<marcoceppi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from marcoceppi
<wxl> +1 fantastic work! keep it up!!!!
<meetingology> +1 fantastic work! keep it up!!!! received from wxl
<toddy> +1 nice work and sympathetic photos
<meetingology> +1 nice work and sympathetic photos received from toddy
<elacheche_anis> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elacheche_anis
<Kilos> +1 keep it up
<meetingology> +1 keep it up received from Kilos
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<winael> and I try to prmote the professional part of Ubuntu (cloud technology like Ubuntu Openstack, Juju, LXC/LXD)
<elacheche_anis> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: For winael Membership?
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<elacheche_anis> Congrats winael :)
<cm-t> bien jouÃ© !
<idrogn> :)
<wxl> congrats winael and ubuntu-fr team!!!!!!!!
<winael> Thx :)
<marcoceppi> \o/
<Kilos> congrats winael  and welcome
<quesh> \o/
<elacheche_anis> ki7mt, is the last one for this time slot board :D You still here dude?
<ki7mt> I am indeed
<YoBoY> congrats winael :D
<Kilos> nice to see a team pulling together like this
<popey> \o/
<elacheche_anis> #topic ki7mt
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: ki7mt
<elacheche_anis> So, ki7mt welcome, please introduce yourself, and share your lp & wiki links please :)
<ki7mt> Hi, my name is Greg, 48 in yrs past, 18 in mind, body and spirit ;-)  WIKI: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KI7MT, LP: https://launchpad.net/~ki7mt
<idrogn> we are very happy together at karum home
<marcoceppi> ki7mt: arent' we all ;)
<idrogn> thanks for your time
<kamal> o/   hi, I have an endorsement for ki7mt
<wxl> hey ki7mt is on our team (lubuntu)
<ki7mt> Yes
<popey> thanks kamal
<cyphermox> wow, strong applicants today :)
<kamal> I'm Kamal Mostafa, a member of the the Ubuntu and Debian Hams (amateur radio)
<kamal> groups and of the Canonical kernel team.
<elacheche_anis> So, any questions for ki7mt ?
<kamal> I have worked with Greg Beam (ki7mt) for a couple of years on various ham radio
<kamal> software issues, and have reviewed (and will sponsor) several ham radio
<kamal> packages that he publishes as Launchpad PPA's and will soon be maintaining in
<kamal> Debian.
<kamal> His work is high quality, and more importantly, he is friendly and easy to work
<kamal> with.  His efforts triaging the ham radio software bugs in Launchpad have also
<kamal> been much appreciated.
<toddy> you use blueprints in launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~ki7mt/+specs?role=assignee
<kamal> I am happy to offer my endorsement of Greg (ki7mt) for Ubuntu Membership.  :-)
<kamal> ..
<elfy> I totally forgot to do a wiki testimonial as I'd promised - so have hung about here  to say I am here for him
<wxl> yay for amateur radio develepment!!!
<elacheche_anis> 2 endorsements :) that's nice :)
<toddy> a lot of karma: https://launchpad.net/~ki7mt/+karma
<ki7mt> thank elfy I see allot of you all in the various IRC rooms.
<wxl> a wide variety of contributions
<wxl> generalists are good :)
<elacheche_anis> Too many endorsements :) No questions?
<toddy> ki7mt: ah, you want to be a Regional Board Member. than we are colleague in the future. :)
<ki7mt> I hope so, that's the goal :-)
<elacheche_anis> Any thing else?
<elacheche_anis> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<elacheche_anis> I see that everyone are excited about ki7mt application, shall we vote?
<Kilos> yes
<wxl> ready to vote
<elacheche_anis> #vote For ki7mt Membership?
<meetingology> Please vote on: For ki7mt Membership?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<wxl> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from wxl
<elacheche_anis> +1 Keep the good work all Ubuntu-fr :)
<meetingology> +1 Keep the good work all Ubuntu-fr :) received from elacheche_anis
<Kilos> +1 wonderful job, keep going
<meetingology> +1 wonderful job, keep going received from Kilos
<kamal> +1
<toddy> +1 very much contributions
<meetingology> +1 very much contributions received from toddy
<elacheche_anis> we wait for popey voting :)
<Kilos> lol
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<elacheche_anis> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: For ki7mt Membership?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<popey> (sorry, was pinged in another channel)
<popey> \o/
<elacheche_anis> Congrats ki7mt :)
<ki7mt> Thank you all for the support over the years, this means allot to me personally.
<wxl> congrats!
<elacheche_anis> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  4 21:06:49 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-04-20.02.moin.txt
<elfy> congrats ki7mt - sorry for forgetting the wiki
<kamal> congrats everyone, and welcome!
<wxl> good meeting all
<Kilos> greta job ki7mt  welcome to the team
<wxl> see you in an hour XD
<Kilos> great
<elacheche_anis> Congrats @All :)
<wxl> DS-McGuire: you aren't ready now are you??
<Kilos> thanks for attending everyone
<elfy> night all - great job :)
<Kilos> night elfy
<Kilos> DS-McGuire  ping
<Kilos> na well be back later
<Kilos> ha
<daniel_> Sorry my internet went down
<Kilos> np
<Kilos> i think the guys wanted to know if you are ready or do you want the next timeslot reather
<Kilos> rather
<daniel__> I am DS-McGuire, I don't know why my name is wrong
<Kilos> because you reconnecting
<Kilos> bad connection somewhere
<wxl> daniel_: you could try changing your nick
<DS-McGuire> I guess.
<DS-McGuire> fixed it
<wxl> there you go
<DS-McGuire> \o/
<wxl> i was thinking we might get you in on the tail end of the 2000 meeting. would you prefer to wait, DS-McGuire ?
<DS-McGuire> I don't mind. I am ready now if everyone else is
<Kilos> elacheche_anis  carry on
 * Kilos ready
<wxl> who's still around?
<wxl> do we have a quorum ?
<wxl> can't we un-end the last meeting? XD
<Kilos> elacheche  is worrying about mails and stuff, give him 5
<elacheche_anis> wxl, the next guy is for the next meeting!
<elacheche_anis> about 45 minutes later :)
<wxl> ko
<wxl> i'm got code to compile anyways :)
<Kilos> whats wrong with now if we are all ready
<wxl> thanks for including the news team on that email elacheche_anis
<elacheche_anis> wxl, we should include them to announce that for everybody :)
<wxl> elacheche_anis: agree. that's what i meant :)
 * wxl moves to our regular challnnel while we wait
<Kilos> DS-McGuire  relax for 40 mins, get some coffee
<DS-McGuire> Kilos, Will do :)
<ki7mt> wxl, where is the lubuntu meeting being held ?
<Kilos> pity we missed you before closing
<wxl> ki7mt: we haven't had meetings in a long time. sometime when i get a chance to breathe more, i'll get them started again.
<wxl> ki7mt: feel free to send me a reminder!
 * ahoneybun will send a reminder to everyone he can
<ki7mt> Ok, will do. There's a few things another project Im helping out with has input on. Will save that for the next one.
<elacheche_anis> ping YoBoY,
<elacheche_anis> is karum still online in other channel?
<cm-t> we are all here together
<cm-t> in his garden
<cm-t> elacheche_anis: â
<cm-t> he closed his laptop now, but he is close to me
<wxl> cm-t: he needs to sign the CoC before we can make him a member. that's one of the required steps of the application process. we don't need to go through everything all over again, but his membership on launchpad is waiting on that.
<YoBoY> pong elacheche_anis
<Kilos> cm-t  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/NewMember#Code_of_Conduct
<cm-t> true,
<elacheche_anis> cm-t, there is a problem :)
<cm-t> we help him sign it right now !
<YoBoY> OK de are explaining hum how to do that
<Kilos> cool
<elacheche_anis> tell him to check his inbox right now :)
<cm-t> if it is ok
<cm-t> good !
<elacheche_anis> cm-t, you should help him dude :) That what family members do :D
<Kilos> lol
<ahoneybun> T-Minus 20mn
<elacheche_anis> m-15
 * ahoneybun looks at elacheche_anis with a face
<Kilos> lol
 * elacheche_anis seeing that face o_O 
<ahoneybun> T-Minus 10mins
<cm-t> elacheche_anis: yes, we are working on it ;)
<cm-t> lucky him we decided to make an IRL event !
<Kilos> yeah
<elacheche_anis> Yep cm-t :) so lucky :D
<cm-t> steps too hard after beers and it's late (00h00) here, installed the great assistant, now on step 4/8
<cm-t> 3/8
<ahoneybun> T-Minus 5mins
<Kilos> haha cmt
<elacheche_anis> Take your time cm-t when you finish just let him answer back that email or ping someone from the board in irc :)
<Kilos> cm-t
<Kilos> midnight here too
<elacheche_anis> DS-McGuire, ready? :D
<DS-McGuire> elacheche, Yep!
<elacheche_anis> Good :) m-4 :)
<ahoneybun> DS-McGuire, why are you not in #ubuntu-doc?
<ahoneybun> I'm pretty such it will be a 100% +1 hoping DS-McGuire signed the CoC lol
<ahoneybun> *sure
<DS-McGuire> ahoneybun, I don't consider myself a part of that team anymore. Haven't for a long time.
<ahoneybun> oh ok
<Kilos> DS-McGuire  lp link please
<DS-McGuire> I still listening and read anything that comes through
<ahoneybun> T-Minus 2mins
<DS-McGuire> https://launchpad.net/~daniel-mcguire351
<Kilos> i read slow
<Kilos> ty
<ahoneybun> wiki please DS-McGuire  as well
<DS-McGuire> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/daniel-mcguire351
<elacheche_anis> ahoneybun, :D we didn't start yet! :p
<Kilos> yes coc signed
<DS-McGuire> signed a long time ago :D
<ahoneybun> elacheche_anis, getting ready
<ahoneybun> :D
<elacheche_anis> :D
<Kilos> just checking
<DS-McGuire> np :)
<Kilos> i read your wiki page the day you applied
<DS-McGuire> Awesome :)
<ahoneybun> TIME!
<elacheche_anis> It's almost time to start the 22UTC meeting, who's here from the Memebership board?
<ahoneybun> o/
 * Kilos here
<elacheche_anis> o/
<toddy> o/
<cwayne> o/
<elacheche_anis> popey, wxl still AFK
<wxl> oops
<wxl> was in the wrong channel
<Kilos> lol
<elacheche_anis> cwayne, you're not a board member dude :)
<cwayne> elacheche_anis: ... yes i am
<Kilos> from the cc?
<cwayne> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board/+members
 * cm-t # karum just signed the CoC \o/ 
<elacheche_anis> cwayne, nice to meet you :D from CC?
<Kilos> well done karum
<hggdh> \o
<Kilos> big job that
<cwayne> elacheche_anis: nope, just membership board :)  https://launchpad.net/~cwayne18 if you're curious
<hggdh> or, even better \Ã´
<cm-t> thant to the assistant great tool !
<elacheche_anis> cwayne, so sorry dude :) I just seen that :D
<cwayne> elacheche_anis: no worries :)
<Kilos> elacheche_anis  GO
<elacheche_anis> Shall we start?
<ahoneybun> yep
<elacheche_anis> #startmeeting 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  4 22:04:42 2015 UTC.  The chair is elacheche_anis. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<elacheche_anis> Hello and welcome to the Membership Board meeting! The wiki page for
<elacheche_anis> the Review Board is available here:
<elacheche_anis> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards. We will attempt to get
<elacheche_anis> through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list
<elacheche_anis> before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire
<elacheche_anis> list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up
<elacheche_anis> where we left off. The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go
<elacheche_anis> through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application
<elacheche_anis> (FIFO). Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and
<elacheche_anis> provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the
<elacheche_anis> members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if
<elacheche_anis> needed, ask the applicant further questions. During this time it is
<elacheche_anis> encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for
<elacheche_anis> the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review
<elacheche_anis> Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading
<elacheche_anis> wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to
<elacheche_anis> vote
<elacheche_anis> #topic DS-McGuire
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 22 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: DS-McGuire
<elacheche_anis> DS-McGuire, please introduce yourself to the board, and share a link to your LP and wiki
<DS-McGuire> My name is Daniel McGuire, I am 20 years old and I study software engineering at Cardiff Metropolitan University in Wales. I have tried to become a major player in the Ubuntu community over past last year and I see myself in the future using the skills I learn both in and out of Uni to help develop the Ubuntu operating system. My main focuses are design and development of software, at the moment since I am not the best with
<DS-McGuire> programming, I am sticking mostly to design until I can get better skills.
<DS-McGuire> Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~daniel-mcguire351 Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/daniel-mcguire351
 * ahoneybun is 22
<elacheche_anis> Any questions for DS-McGuire? Any supporters here?
<ahoneybun> o/
 * cm-t I have to d/c because mÃ©tro will close, But I will just say DS-McGuire is very friendly guy, I just opened a group on telegram with the topic of ubuntu/apps and he already launched a topic for a design icon
<DS-McGuire> :)
<elacheche_anis> Good cm-t :) ahoneybun if you have a question go ahead and ask it :)
<ahoneybun> supporter
<toddy> DS-McGuire: Do you has contact (real-life) to your loco group in wales?
<cm-t> gn8 guys thank you
<ahoneybun> DS-McGuire, do you see yourself helping other devs with UI and icon designs?
<Kilos> TY cm-t
<Kilos> eish caps lock
<elacheche_anis> #voters Kilos elacheche_anis toddy ahoneybun wxl cwayne popey
<meetingology> Current voters: Kilos ahoneybun cwayne elacheche_anis popey toddy wxl
<cwayne> DS-McGuire: do you anticipate becoming more active in the development side as well? (as you get better skills)
<DS-McGuire> toddy, I have yet to meet with the loco group in my area, this is because of traveling to and from the place they meet since I cannot afford it. I am planning on going to the next Ubuntu-fr meeting if I can afford that.
<cwayne> and if so, what type of development?  specifically apps? or other parts of the OS too?
<DS-McGuire> ahoneybun, Yes. That is one area I want to be a major player in.
<Kilos> DS-McGuire  is there a loco in wales?
<DS-McGuire> cwayne, Yes, albeit I find the community very intimidating because of its professionalism however I do see myself contributing directly to Ubuntu/Unity 8 in the next few years.
<Kilos> ah
<hggdh> elacheche_anis: can I be a voter as well?
<DS-McGuire> apps are focus for me since I do plan to make a living from them and the Ubuntu 8 operating system gives me an amazing platform to develop on.
<cwayne> hm, that sounds like something we need to fix, we dont want anyone to ever be intimidated to contribute
<elacheche_anis> #voters hggdh
<meetingology> Current voters: Kilos ahoneybun cwayne elacheche_anis hggdh popey toddy wxl
<hggdh> \o/
<elacheche_anis> my fault hggdh :)
<wxl> indeed cwayne
<wxl> DS-McGuire: you find the ubuntu community intimidating?
<DS-McGuire> cwayne, Oh not in a bad way. And not by anyone being an a**. It's just looks it when you're a novice hahah!
<Kilos> yes we can speak to them, everyone should feel welcome in their own loco as well
<hggdh> DS-McGuire: heh. It helps to keep in mind that we all started as novices
<DS-McGuire> hggdh, I understand that. :)
<wxl> i have found the ubuntu community totally welcoming. even the most "professional" folks are just as willing to help as the most "amateur"
<cwayne> yeah, well I'm glad its not people being jerks at least :)
<Kilos> yeah
<wxl> esp. in dev
<ahoneybun> agreed
<DS-McGuire> It's not the fact people are not welcoming, it's quite the opposite, I assure you. However I don't want to look like I don't know what I am doing haha!
<cwayne> DS-McGuire: I totally get what you're saying (I felt the same at first), but that's the beauty of this community, everyone's there to help, not criticize :)
<wxl> exactly
<DS-McGuire> cwayne, Definitely :)
<wxl> not knowing things is an opportunity to get to know
<cwayne> DS-McGuire: ha, I still don't know what Im doing :P
<wxl> heh
<wxl> ditto!
<elacheche_anis> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<DS-McGuire> cwayne, I have heard that from a number of people./
<Kilos> ditto too
<elacheche_anis> I confirm that DS-McGuire :)
<DS-McGuire> haha!
<elacheche_anis> So.. Is there any other questions to DS-McGuire or we can vote :D
<wxl> vote
<hggdh> I am OK
<toddy> vote
<elacheche_anis> #vote for DS-McGuire Membership!
<meetingology> Please vote on: for DS-McGuire Membership!
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<ahoneybun> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ahoneybun
<toddy> +1 nice to meet you DS-McGuire â I think you make a great job
<meetingology> +1 nice to meet you DS-McGuire â I think you make a great job received from toddy
<elacheche_anis> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elacheche_anis
<hggdh> +1 thank you, and keep calm ;-)
<meetingology> +1 thank you, and keep calm ;-) received from hggdh
<cwayne> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cwayne
<Kilos> +1 have faith in your abilities and everything else falls into place automatically
<meetingology> +1 have faith in your abilities and everything else falls into place automatically received from Kilos
<wxl> +1 reach out to the communityâ they need you as much as you need them!
<meetingology> +1 reach out to the communityâ they need you as much as you need them! received from wxl
<elacheche_anis> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for DS-McGuire Membership!
<meetingology> Votes for:7 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<wxl> yay congrats DS-McGuire
<hggdh> DS-McGuire: welcome in!
<elacheche_anis> Congratulations DS-McGuire :)
<DS-McGuire> \o/ Thank you everyone!!
<Kilos> DS-McGuire  congrats and welcome
<wxl> i look forward to further lubuntu contributions DS-McGuire :)
<ahoneybun> welcome to the fold DS-McGuire
<elacheche_anis> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  4 22:17:44 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-06-04-22.04.moin.txt
<toddy> Congrats DS-McGuire
 * ahoneybun needs to leave now
<Kilos> ty ahoneybun
<DS-McGuire> Thanks a lot :D
<elacheche_anis> As we don't have more condidate for tonight the meeting is over :) I'll finish the rest in minutes :)
<Kilos> DS-McGuire  keep up the good work lad
<ahoneybun> DS-McGuire, I'll be talking to you about design later
<ahoneybun> np Kilos
<DS-McGuire> ahoneybun, I look forward to it! :D
<DS-McGuire> Kilos, Thank you :)
<Kilos> nice to have you on board
<cwayne> welcome aboard :)
 * cwayne goes afk
<Kilos> night all
<DS-McGuire> night!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-06-05
<Kilos> evening all, can someone please tell me, the COC one signs is from that specific pc right?
<Kilos> oops can i ask that here?
<Kilos> hi elfy  ?
<pleia2> Kilos: probably better in #ubuntu-community-team, but no, it has nothing to do with the computer you sign it on, it's all about the gpg key you sign it with
<pleia2> you can move your gpg key to other systems :)
<Kilos> ty so much
<pleia2> you should make sure you back up your key, if you lose it there's no way to recover it, I suggest reading this: https://www.gnupg.org/gph/en/manual/c481.html
<Kilos> ty will do
<pleia2> especially "Protecting your private key"
<pleia2> sure
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-06
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Who's here?
<bdmurray> \o
<micahg> o/ sort of, otp
<BenC> o/
<BenC> Agenda looks a little light this meeting
<cyphermox> I'm there too
<cyphermox> my action item would be a carry-over; it's not done but given the reminder I'll sort it out today
<cyphermox> bdmurray: what about yours?
<cyphermox> rbasak: same question?
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> Apologies, I'm in the middle of migrating all my files from my downed laptop to a reserve one
<rbasak> I'd like some feedback on my question to devel-permissions please. My action is blocked on that.
<cyphermox> #startmeeting DMB meeting 2016-06-06
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  6 15:08:17 2016 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting 2016-06-06 | Current topic:
<bdmurray> mine is done
<cyphermox> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting 2016-06-06 | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<cyphermox> alright, so my action item is a carry-over; I'll sort it today
<rbasak> I'd like some feedback on my question to devel-permissions please. My action is blocked on that.
<cyphermox> bdmurray's is done (check other PPU devs)
<cyphermox> rbasak: ack
<cyphermox> sil2100: what about your action item (check state of utouch uploaders and other teams that might be non-existant) ?
<cyphermox> [ACTION] everyone to give feedback on devel-permissions to rbasak's question
<meetingology> ACTION: everyone to give feedback on devel-permissions to rbasak's question
<rbasak> Or alternatively, if nobody provides feedback, I will JFDI.
<rbasak> (though that means asking infinity since it needs a TB member)
<rbasak> Any objections?
<cyphermox> well, I'll answer right after the meeting :)
 * bdmurray is reading
<sil2100> cyphermox: oh, yeah, not done yet, will do it ASAP today once I have a working system again or tomorrow at latest
<sil2100> Sorry...
<cyphermox> ok, not a problem
<cyphermox> that's it for the action items review I guess?
<cyphermox> #topic Selection of next meeting chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting 2016-06-06 | Current topic: Selection of next meeting chair
<cyphermox> we usually just go through the alphabetical list, but considering this very short meeting, I can do it again
<bdmurray> +1
<micahg> I was wondering if we can do a poll for meeting times
<cyphermox> alrighty then ;)
<cyphermox> micahg: in aob?
<micahg> ah
<cyphermox> #topic AOB?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting 2016-06-06 | Current topic: AOB?
<micahg> iok
<micahg> I was wondering if we can do a poll for meeting times
<cyphermox> how do you want to proceed for that, do you have meeting times suggested?
<micahg> doodle poll I think
<bdmurray> are you unhappy with both times or just one of them?
<micahg> well, I have meetings during both at the moment
<micahg> but if these are the best times, that's fine
<micahg> I don't think we've done a time poll in about 3 years though
<rbasak> I have no objection to doing a poll. Presumably we need to also consider potential availability of applicants though?
<micahg> yeah, so one earlier in the UTC day and one later
<cyphermox> wfm
<BenC> Iâm good with the current times, but if they change, itâs better for me if they were 6 hours later (anything between now and 6 hours from now is booked up for me)
<cyphermox> micahg: want to setup a doodle or framadate poll?
<BenC> Any earleir, and it conflicts with my sleep :)
<BenC> But I realize later may not work for everyone.
<sil2100> BenC: 6 hours from now is like almost-midnight here ;)
<BenC> micahg: Are you looking for a different day, same times, or a different times same day?
<micahg> yeah, I can set up a doodle poll
<micahg> any of the above
<cyphermox> well, we'll definitely need to do polling, everyone will have different preferences
<micahg> well
<rbasak> Applicants individually shouldn't need to conflict with their sleep too often, but the DMB would have to do it all the time. So I think it's OK to aim to not interfere with DMB members' sleep :)
<micahg> same time doesn't work most days (15:00 UTC during DST in America)
<BenC> These times work for me on Thursday, if thatâs an option for anyone
<BenC> rbasak: I agree with that logic
<cyphermox> micahg: if you do a poll, I suggest using a FOSS tool for the polling ;)
<micahg> wasn't aware we had one
<cyphermox> https://framadate.org/
<micahg> sure, that works
<cyphermox> alright, so let's make this an action?
<micahg> sure
<cyphermox> [ACTION] micahg to set up a poll to get better meeting times for everyone
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to set up a poll to get better meeting times for everyone
<cyphermox> anything else?
<bdmurray> nope
<micahg> I"m good
<cyphermox> that's all folks!
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  6 15:25:33 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-06-15.08.moin.txt
<cyphermox> thanks everyone
<micahg> thanks cyphermox
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<chrisccoulson> o/
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  6 16:31:44 2016 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> I've got an announcement but will wait til the end
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I've got a number of snappy PRs to followup on (gsettings, input methods, etc)
<jdstrand> I also have a couple snapd interface reviews (modem-manager and ppp, but expect more)
<jdstrand> I have some more to look at with seccomp arg filtering
<jdstrand> I also have various snapd interface policy updates and investigations
<jdstrand> I also have some review tools updates for snap.yaml changes and a few small bug fixes
<jdstrand> if I have time, I'll get started on the docker snappy interface
<jdstrand> I think that's it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage and community duties this week
<mdeslaur> I'm about to publish a libxml2 update in a few minutes
<mdeslaur> and I'm off wednesday afternoon
<mdeslaur> I'll be going down the cve list, as usual after that
<mdeslaur> that's it for me, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I've got a short week this week, will be off starting wednesday.
<sbeattie> I'm on bug triage while I'm here.
<sbeattie> I'm also prepping for the sprint next week
<sbeattie> I need to spend some time poking at the kernel cve->lp bugs sync script
<sbeattie> I'm continuing to look for build failures in yakkety due to gcc pie
<sbeattie> and I'll take a peek at the cve list to see if there's something I can pick up there.
<sbeattie> that's probably it for me.
<sbeattie> oh right, tyhicks is not here... is jjohansen back yet?
<sbeattie> Or maybe we should jump to sarnold.
<sarnold> I think I'm in the happy place this week
<sarnold> it's a very short week for me, monday and tuesday only
<sarnold> I'll be working on some sprint prep and backporting imagemagick patches
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I've got Firefox updates this week, and I'm hoping Chromium will be ready to sponsor. I've just finished Oxide
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'll be working through oxide bugs as usual
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: 'just finished oxide'-- you mean for USN?
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, yeah
<jdstrand> thanks
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> I'd like to announce a couple of changes to the structure of the security team.
<jdstrand> After almost 5.5 years as the manager of the security team, I decided it was time for a change. The security team is too awesome to leave so I'm not going far: I will stay on the security team as a generalist focusing on snappy initially and getting back to generalist duties in due course. :)
<jdstrand> The other change is that I'd like to extend a warm welcome to Emily Ratliff (ratliff) for joining the Ubuntu Security team as manager and I'll be working with her to ensure a smooth transition. If you don't know Emily already, google her ;) She is very talented and accomplished and we are super-excited to have her join Canonical and the Ubuntu Security team. :)
<jdstrand> ratliff: hi! not sure if you have anything to report for this week, but welcome! :)
<sbeattie> woot! welcome ratliff!
<ratliff> Thank you, jdstrand! I am very excited to be here and looking forward to the sprint next week.
<sarnold> welcome aboard ratliff :)
<mdeslaur> ratliff: welcome!
<ratliff> As my first accomplishment, I have broken SSO. Once IS and I work things out, I will be easier to find, meanwhile I'm here on freenode
<jdstrand> hehe
<sarnold> excellent :)
<ratliff> :-)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/batmand.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/node-semver.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pinpoint.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mod-gnutls.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gnugk.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<teward> Just want to thank mdeslaur for ACKing the nginx debdiffs, helping get the nginx vulnerability patched rapidly :)
<jdstrand> oh
<teward> :)
<jdstrand> teward: I forgot to put that in the announcement
<teward> and to thank the Security Team for a continued job well done :)
<jdstrand> Thomas Ward (teward) provided debdiffs for trusty-xenial for nginx (LP: #1587577)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1587577 in nginx (Ubuntu Yakkety) "[CVE-2016-4450] NULL pointer dereference while writing client request body" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1587577
<teward> jdstrand: not a problem :)
<jdstrand> :)
<mdeslaur> teward: thanks for the debdiffs!
<jdstrand> teward: thank you for the debdiffs and continuing to care for nginx :)
<teward> my pleasure :)
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold, chrisccoulson, ratliff, teward: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  6 16:53:36 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-06-16.31.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<teward> jdstrand: just keep the constant supply of coffee coming, it's what helped me churn out the debdiffs and the Yakkety upload to fix in a single day :)
<chrisccoulson> oh, hi ratliff :)
<teward> also, greetings to the new security team member/manager :)
<jdstrand> teward: hehe :)
<mdeslaur> teward: wait, who told you about my secret to productivity? :)
<teward> heheh
<teward> mdeslaur: self-discovered, 2009, Carnegie Mellon University
<teward> you'd be amazed how helpful a constant supply of coffee is :D
<teward> mdeslaur: not uncommon though for coffee to be the secret to productivity... I just consume ungodly amounts :)
<teward> thanks again to all
<teward> and welcome, ratliff, to the Canonical and Ubuntu Security Teams.
 * genii makes another pot
<teward> heh
<ratliff> thank you, teward!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-07
<gnuoy> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  7 16:00:08 2016 UTC.  The chair is gnuoy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<gnuoy> Thanks to cpaelzer for covering for me last week. Let's get cracking...
<jgrimm> o/
<nacc> o/
<cpaelzer> o/ , your welcome
<gnuoy> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<gnuoy> I see no actions from the lastn meeting, so onwards and upwards unless anyone knows any different?
<caribou> o/
<cpaelzer> gnuoy: I forgot to put me at the end of the list - move me with you afterwards as "payment" :-)
<rbasak> o/
<gnuoy> cpaelzer, wil do!
<gnuoy> #topic Yakkety Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Yakkety Development
<gnuoy> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseSchedule
<gnuoy> Anyone got anything to highlight vis-Ã -vis Yakkety Development?
<jgrimm> ah, nacc any movement on php cleanup?
<nacc> jgrimm: still working on it, refocusing on that this week
<jgrimm> great! steve brought that up to me in 1x1 yesterday
<nacc> got a few packages fixed in debian, but then the debian maintainers also said they'd rather delete a package then get an NMU fix
<nacc> so... we'll see where that goes
<jgrimm> no worries, just wanted to poke it forward a bit
<gnuoy> thanks nacc, jgrimm
<nacc> jgrimm: ack
<gnuoy> #subtopic Release Bugs
<gnuoy> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-y-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<gnuoy> I believe rbasak will go over current assigned bugs at the end, anything for now?
<jgrimm> looks good
<gnuoy> ta
<gnuoy> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> been working on a few merges :
<caribou> corosync that turns out to be a sync
<gnuoy> \o/
<caribou> clamav & kexec-tools
<jgrimm> nice
<caribou> & a few sponsored uploads
<gnuoy> thanks caribou
<gnuoy> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team
<gnuoy> Not sure who to prod for this, jgrimm ?
<jgrimm> gnuoy, I have a new QA person starting at beginning of July
<jgrimm> so nothing else to report there
<gnuoy> tip top!
<gnuoy> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> nothing new here
<gnuoy> any q's for smb et al?
<gnuoy> I shall take silence as consent to move on...
<jgrimm> all good
<gnuoy> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
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<gnuoy> Ok, moving on
<gnuoy> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
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<gnuoy> jgrimm: anything coming up?
<jgrimm> no sir
<gnuoy> #topic Open Discussion
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<teward> o/ (late, sorry)
<teward> situational awareness wrt nginx:
<teward> security fix released last week, uploaded to Yakkety
<teward> merge is on hold because I observed Debian indicating they're still 'testing' dynamic module support
<teward> makes me think it's not entirely stable yet
<teward> so i'll keep an eye on that, but that todo on the blueprint'll remain BLOCKED or TODO unâtil it looks OK
<jgrimm> thanks teward! on top of things as always
<gnuoy> would anyone like to get anything else off their chest?
<cpaelzer> gnuoy: before you close, you might want to pass chair to rbasak for bug discussion
<gnuoy> yep, one step ahead of you
<cpaelzer> :-)
<gnuoy> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
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<gnuoy> next meeting will be in a week date 14th of june, same time
<gnuoy> #topic Assigned merges/bugwork (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Assigned merges/bugwork (rbasak)
<gnuoy> #chair rbasak
<meetingology> Current chairs: gnuoy rbasak
<rbasak> Thankg gnuoy!
<rbasak> Thanks!
<gnuoy> my pleasure!
<rbasak> Can I have status first please?
<rbasak> cpaelzer: bug 1507681, bug 1495988
<ubottu> bug 1507681 in psmisc (Ubuntu Precise) "killall with 65 arguments kills more than expected" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1507681
 * jgrimm hangs head in shame
<ubottu> bug 1495988 in apache2 (Ubuntu) "ProxyErrorOverride leads to slow 404 responses" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1495988
<rbasak> jgrimm: bug 1397250
<ubottu> bug 1397250 in libnss-ldap (Ubuntu) "SIGPIPE not caught in do_atfork_child()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1397250
<jgrimm> rbasak, no progress, please keep with me tho (as discussed, low priority)
<cpaelzer> 1507681 waiting for sponsoring (as last week), 1495988 just subscribed sponsors a few minutes ago
<rbasak> cpaelzer: sorry, I did say I'd review that. I will make a note.
<rbasak> nacc: bug 1423498, bug 1524635, bug 1570472, bug 1553563, bug 1570923
<ubottu> bug 1423498 in squid3 (Ubuntu Trusty) "FTP upload causes squid hang" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1423498
<ubottu> bug 1524635 in haproxy (Ubuntu) "haproxy syslog configuration causes double logging" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1524635
<ubottu> bug 1570472 in puppet (Ubuntu) "Set systemd as default service provider" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570472
<ubottu> bug 1553563 in bacula (Ubuntu) "bconsole to Bacula Director fails with authorization problem message" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1553563
<ubottu> bug 1570923 in bacula (Ubuntu Xenial) "bacula-dir won't start with "undefined symbol: mysql_init"" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1570923
<rbasak> rharper: bug 1384503, bug 1457957, bug 1511735, bug 1491406
<ubottu> bug 1384503 in rsync (Ubuntu Trusty) "rsync fails on large files with compression" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1384503
<ubottu> bug 1457957 in puppet (Ubuntu Vivid) "puppet uses upstart for service status checks in vivid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1457957
<ubottu> bug 1511735 in libnl3 (Ubuntu Trusty) "libnl: fail to bind() netlink sockets" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511735
<ubottu> bug 1491406 in augeas (Ubuntu) "augeas-lenses-1.2.0 - NagiosCfg lens broken for /etc/nagios.cfg due to spaces" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1491406
<rbasak> I don't see magicalChicken here so I'll ask him in #ubuntu-server after this meeting.
<cpaelzer> rbasak: as I "only" wait for sponsoreing review - you may pass me another one - might find no time but better I know one if time suddenly shows up
<rbasak> cpaelzer: that's a good point, thank you,.
<nacc> rbasak: nothing on the bacula bugs (although they are moving to the top of my list today). 1524635 submitted a fix, but it didn't quite work (I believe i made a mistake, testing a fix now). I would think 1570472 and 1457957 are the same, possibly?
<nacc> (the latter being assigned to rharper)
<caribou> cpaelzer: 1495988 only have a task for the dev release. What series do you need to SRU to ?
<cpaelzer> trusty
<caribou> cpaelzer: ok, will take care of that
<cpaelzer> caribou: +1 karma
<nacc> rbasak: 1423498, waiting for user testing
<rbasak> Thanks caribou!
<cpaelzer> caribou: let me know if there is anything not as it should be
 * rbasak is catching up on nacc's responses
<caribou> cpaelzer: sure
<nacc> rbasak: 1570472, gave feedback to sdeziel, waiting on a new patch to review
<rbasak> nacc: OK so bug 1524635 is making progress, but I think you need a bug task for Trusty? Shall I create that?
<ubottu> bug 1524635 in haproxy (Ubuntu) "haproxy syslog configuration causes double logging" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1524635
<nacc> rbasak: yes, please (was going to ask for it once i had filled out the SRU template, as that's the order on the wiki page)
<rharper> sorry, here now
<rharper> rbasak: on the augeas bug, I'm working on a reproducer; should have that today with a suggestion from someone
<rbasak> Ah, OK. I presume the SRU page has that order to prevent needless bug tasks, but I think for our team here it's fine to create them in advance if we reasonably think that an SRU will be needed.
<nacc> rbasak: ack, will update my mental model :)
<rharper> rbasak: for libnl3, that's all fixed released at this point; I don't think there is anything left to do in that bug.
<jgrimm> \o/
<rharper> rbasak: rsync, I don't know what else to do with it, we're stuck without a reproducable data, someone hits it but never shares their datafile;  I tried the simple Xenial rsync to Trusty but wasn't that trivial to hit (as we've said multiple times)
<rharper> will poke at the puppet bug today as well;
<rbasak> nacc: for bug 1423498, I think it's OK to mark it cleared for now. Please follow up if it makes any progress.
<ubottu> bug 1423498 in squid3 (Ubuntu Trusty) "FTP upload causes squid hang" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1423498
<nacc> rbasak: yep, agreed
<nacc> rharper: you may want to look at 1570472, and your puppet bug may be a dupe
<rharper> nacc: thanks for the heads up;
<rharper> ISTR that someone else was looking at a similar issue before X released
<rbasak> nacc: puppet dupes> yeah, seems likely. Please can you or rharper agree, dupe and assign to just one of you as necessary?
<rharper> rbasak: ack
<nacc> rbasak: ack
<rharper> nacc: you're bug looks nicer (see debdiff attached) =)
<nacc> rharper: i spent some time on my puppet bug this week, i can look at yours and decide
<nacc> rharper: also true :)
<rharper> cool
<rharper> also sdeziel is on yours which helps move things along =)
<nacc> yep
<rbasak> OK so I'll mark rharper's 957 as cleared in my tracking spreadsheet, but please do mark the dupe in LP too. Thanks!
<rharper> np
<nacc> yep
<rharper> rbasak: any other thoughts on the rsync bug ... I mean, we can only say so many times that we need a dataset that reproduces it to fully understand the fix and regression potential
<rbasak> rharper: agreed but I'm still catching up, sorry. I'll get there in a moment.
<rharper> rbasak: np
<rbasak> nacc: I think I'm done with your progress updates - thank you.
<nacc> rbasak: np, thanks -- feel free to add more bugs to my plate as you go
<nacc> i may start a pad or something to help track my own status on them, fwiw
<rbasak> I've got some new bugs to assign lined up. I'll cover them after I catch up on progress.
<rbasak> Sorry this is taking a while - I'm juggling a ton of bug numbers :)
<rbasak> rharper: OK so bug 1384503 next. I agree with you. I would update the bug description with a "[Status]" section right at the top with basically what you just said, and then we can leave it Incomplete and consider it cleared from a tracking perspective. If you could stay subscribed or assigned please, then if it does make any progress we can track it again.
<ubottu> bug 1384503 in rsync (Ubuntu Trusty) "rsync fails on large files with compression" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1384503
<rbasak> rharper: I find that updating the status right at the top makes it really clear for those who comment and complain etc without actually reading all the comments.
<rharper> rbasak: OK ,will do
<rbasak> rharper: marking bug 1511735 as cleared - thank you for driving and suffering all that pain!
<ubottu> bug 1511735 in libnl3 (Ubuntu Trusty) "libnl: fail to bind() netlink sockets" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511735
<rharper> rbasak: sure
<rbasak> Noting bug 1491406 as making progress, thank you.
<ubottu> bug 1491406 in augeas (Ubuntu) "augeas-lenses-1.2.0 - NagiosCfg lens broken for /etc/nagios.cfg due to spaces" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1491406
<rharper> rbasak: yep, I should have the reproducer done today, and iwth that I can create a debdiff with the fix pulled from upstream/current-release
<rbasak> Sounds good!
<rbasak> OK I'm done with progress updates I think. Did I miss anything?
<jgrimm> nicely done. thanks
<rbasak> I have four bugs lined up to assign, mainly for continued ramp up.
<rbasak> If anyone has any others that may be more important to point out, please do.
<rbasak> Bug 1581839 is a good one for packaging practice.
<ubottu> bug 1581839 in clamav (Ubuntu Xenial) "package clamdscan 0.98.7+dfsg-0ubuntu4 failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/share/man/man1/clamdscan.1.gz', which is also in package clamav-daemon 0.98.7+dfsg-0ubuntu0.14.04.1" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1581839
<rbasak> Also I have bug 1524526, bug 1544400 and bug 1472639. I don't know if are valid and need an actual upload but it would be good to get these off the list.
<ubottu> bug 1524526 in dovecot (Ubuntu Xenial) "Crashes with undefined symbol" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1524526
<ubottu> bug 1544400 in squid3 (Ubuntu) "squid3: systemctl reports squid is running when there is a bungled squid.conf and it has exited." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1544400
<ubottu> bug 1472639 in openldap (Ubuntu) "apparmor profile denied for kerberos: /run/.heim_org.h5l.kcm-socket" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472639
<rbasak> That will do for now I think, unless anyone has any others that need attention?
<rbasak> nacc, I would definitely put your bacula bugs above all of these.
<nacc> rbasak: ack
<rbasak> Any takers?
<rbasak> Well, cpaelzer already volunteered, so I'm going to give him bug 1581839 and bug 1524526.
<ubottu> bug 1581839 in clamav (Ubuntu Xenial) "package clamdscan 0.98.7+dfsg-0ubuntu4 failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/share/man/man1/clamdscan.1.gz', which is also in package clamav-daemon 0.98.7+dfsg-0ubuntu0.14.04.1" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1581839
<ubottu> bug 1524526 in dovecot (Ubuntu Xenial) "Crashes with undefined symbol" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1524526
<rbasak> nacc's plate is full I think.
<cpaelzer> rbasak: thanks
<rbasak> rharper, shall I give you bug 1472639 so you don't end up empty?
<ubottu> bug 1472639 in openldap (Ubuntu) "apparmor profile denied for kerberos: /run/.heim_org.h5l.kcm-socket" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472639
<rharper> rbasak: sure
<cpaelzer> rbasak: as I said this time it might take more time as I'm also a day off, but I'll look into them as soon as I can
<rbasak> cpaelzer: sure, that's absolutely fine.
<rbasak> We're still on fairly low priority bugs at the moment, but I think things are ramping up well.
<rbasak> Please do make a note of anything you think needs more attention and we can assign them next week.
<rbasak> Thanks all!
<jgrimm> thanks rbasak
<rbasak> Any comments or questions before I close?
<rbasak> #endmeeting
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<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  7 16:39:13 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-07-16.00.moin.txt
<cpaelzer> thanks rbasak for controlling the hoarde of bug numbers
<cpaelzer> thanks gnuoy for the meeting
<cpaelzer> o/ everybody
<caribou> thanks everyone !
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-08
<thedac> o/
<gnuoy> o/
<jamespage> o/
<icey> op/
<cargonza> o/
<gnuoy> tinwood, beisner, coreycb, ddellav today?
<gnuoy> #startmeeting openstack-charms-meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jun  8 17:00:48 2016 UTC.  The chair is gnuoy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
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<beisner> o/
<gnuoy> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<ddellav> o/
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<gnuoy> #subtopic gnuoy Talk to stub about moving his leadership layer into core
<tinwood> o/
<gnuoy> This is less relevant as I went a different path
<gnuoy> I ended up gating things like db_sync on leadership down in the layer itself rather than in the top handler
<gnuoy> I'll close that action
<gnuoy> #subtopic gnuoy review 16.07 deliverables
<gnuoy> I'll defer this again until we're closer to the date
<gnuoy> #subtopic jamespage update on relicensing of charms
<gnuoy> He is going to contact people outside of Canonical who have contributed to the charms and ask if they are happy if the licensing of the charm moves from GPL v3 to Apache-2.0. This is so that our charms comply with the licensing policy for OpenStack big-tent projects
<gnuoy> #link http://governance.openstack.org/reference/licensing.html
<jamespage> ok
<jamespage> I've sent email to openstack-dev with intent; and emailed contributors outside of canonical directly to ask them to respond on the ML thread
<gnuoy> excellent, thank you
<gnuoy> #topic Moving communication Upstream
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<gnuoy> We're currently pushing communication to upstream channels. So, we'll be creating a new openstack-charms IRC channel on freenode and moving email discussions about charm operation and charm development to the OpenStack mailing lists.
<gnuoy> In addition we'll be pushing to update our documentation, both in the charms and various web pages.
<jamespage> we should probably move this meeting to an openstack-meeting channel as well?
<gnuoy> Emails the OpenStack mailing lists should have [charm] at the start of their subject line
<gnuoy> jamespage, +1
<jamespage> gnuoy, are you ok to take an action to make that happen?
<beisner> #link http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
<gnuoy> #action gnuoy move meeting to openstack-meeting channel
<meetingology> ACTION: gnuoy move meeting to openstack-meeting channel
<tinwood> We tend to have most conversations on irc.  When do they/should they move to he ML?
<beisner> jamespage, gnuoy - meeting time slots on the 2 (or 3) openstack-meeting channels is pretty tight.   some projects use their own channel, and that can be an ok option i think.
<gnuoy> tinwood, I don't think we should move conversations to a mailing list
<jamespage> that's a good question - I think when its something design oriented or significant
<jamespage> ML
<jamespage> otherwise general chat still in irc imhp
<gnuoy> +1
<tinwood> sounds good
<gnuoy> beisner, ok, thanks for the heads up
<beisner> +1 irc for day to day convos
<jamespage> I proposed a rename of the openvswitch-odl charm - that's probably a good example
<beisner> indeed
 * gnuoy needs to fiddle with email filters
<tinwood> So things that have knock on effects, etc.
<gnuoy> #topic State of Development for next Charm Release
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<gnuoy> Most of the HA code in the OpenStack layers has now landed, so OpenstackCharms built on top of the Openstack Layers should be able to easily enable service HA. Work continues on DNS HA, Barbican and workload status management in the OpenStack layers. anyone, want to add anything?
<jamespage> how are we with CI progress beisner?
<beisner> we're now adding a repo-info on the fly just ahead of push and publish to the charmstore
<beisner> that will allow users / triagers to determine exactly where a cs: revno came from
<jamespage> \o/
<beisner> those files should never live in the charm source repos - only ever in a built/published artifact
<beisner> example:  https://jujucharms.com/tempest/
<gnuoy> thanks beisner
<beisner> next up is injecting the build step into the existing CI, which I plan to have tactically in place this week.
<gnuoy> tip top
<thedac> nice
<beisner> we'll have some things to adjust i'm sure, but the basic commit -> build -> test -> publish flow should be good
<gnuoy> #topic Release Bugs
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<gnuoy> #link https://goo.gl/HJjORI
<gnuoy> I haven't gone through them in the last week but will be looking through again tomorrow. If anyone has anytime to look as well that would be great.
<gnuoy> We're one up on last week I think, so not exactly an avalanche, although I think jamespage has done some work
<gnuoy> #topic Open Discussion
<gnuoy> Anyone got anything OpenStack charm related to get off their chests?
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<gnuoy> anyone got anything on their mind?
<beisner> src dirs are still on my mind
<gnuoy> in a good way?
<beisner> ;-)
<tinwood> Like or dislike
<beisner> i may have waffled on ya
<beisner> let's discuss in more detail in day 2 day though.  proceeding to support both methods (vanilla layers, and the proposed src charm model)
<thedac> ha!
<gnuoy> kk
<thedac> FWIW I lean toward no src dir
<tinwood> splitter
<beisner> i'd like to see us list the distinct benefits of doing it really
 * tinwood is sorry
<beisner> other than it feels/looks better, naturally :)
<gnuoy> yes, it does
<tinwood> I'll add to the design doc on CI some points.
<gnuoy> feels/looks better, I mean
<beisner> from a devex perspective, having another method could be confusing
<beisner> take the cephs
<beisner> ceph-osd and ceph-mon are to be vanilla layers.  buildable as a charm and consumable as a layer.
<beisner> but the ceph layer would be  src charm, with a diff dir structure
<beisner> ie ceph layer not intended to be reconsumed as a layer
<tinwood> Should the ceph-osd/ceph-mon be layers AND charms?
<beisner> that's a good question.  the *can* be.   should they?
<tinwood> i.e. another 'thing' that trivally consumes the ceph-osd layer to be the charm.
<beisner> so charm-layer-ceph-osd with the guts, and a thin wrapper in charm-ceph-osd?
<tinwood> possibly, although even that feels like a hack.
<beisner> with the latter being a src charm
<beisner> i think it's one or the other isn't it?
<tinwood> yes
<gnuoy> I don't feel that strongly tbh. I like the src dir because it means that files which are only used to build the charm do not pollute the built charm but *shrug*
<thedac> My arguments against src dir are 1) We are artificially introducing the concept of "top layer"  2) Theoretical future need to consume "top layer" as a middle layer (cephs good example) 3) The developers of reactive and the first reactive charms don't use a src dir
<beisner> i agree with that aesthetic benefit entirely
<thedac> But I am certainly open to debate
<gnuoy> I think point 2 could be argued both ways tbh
<thedac> I am just publicly committing to my argument :)
<gnuoy> If we don't want a top layer to be consuable the src dir is a good way to distinguish it.
<gnuoy> I find the argument that the src charm is a layer a bit force tbh
<beisner> it feels a bit like building a thing but then saying:  you can't extend or re-use it for some other currently unimagined purpose.
<thedac> And my point is how can we know for certain now that some point in the future we will not want/have to consume a "top" layer again the cephs are good examples
<tinwood> I'm not overly attached either way.
<jamespage> I don't think using the src directory now precludes us from moving a charm to be a layer later...
<beisner> true, git mv ftw
<jamespage> at least that way we are making a explicit decision that a charm is now consumable as a layer...
<thedac> That is the strongest point for src dir. That we are explicitly stating it is NOT supported as a layer
<gnuoy> jamespage, please review the etiquette guidelines (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/OpenStackCharmsMeeting)
<beisner> lolz
<jamespage> ..
<jamespage> oops lol
<beisner> roflcopters
<thedac> heh
<gnuoy> Ok, I think we should plough on with the src dir but retain the right to change our minds
 * tinwood lol
<jamespage> +1
 * thedac falls in line
<jamespage> can we have a official vote on that?
<tinwood> how do we vote?
<gnuoy> we can but I don't know the meeting bot commans
<gnuoy> * commands
<jamespage> #vote
<jamespage> #vote <subject>
<coreycb> o/
<jamespage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<gnuoy> #vote Having a src dir in top layer charms
<meetingology> Please vote on: Having a src dir in top layer charms
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<jamespage> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jamespage
<icey> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from icey
<thedac> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from thedac
<gnuoy> #voters all
<meetingology> Everyone can now vote
<tinwood> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tinwood
<coreycb> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from coreycb
<beisner> yes, happy to pave the ci for both to 'just work' -- i only hold back for the future questions: "you did what?"
<gnuoy> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from gnuoy
<beisner> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from beisner
<gnuoy> #votesrequired 3
<meetingology> votes now need 3 to be passed
<gnuoy> argh, I think we're done
<gnuoy> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Having a src dir in top layer charms
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:4
<meetingology> Motion carried
<jamespage> \o/
<tinwood> \o/
<thedac> :)
<gnuoy> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | openstack-charms-meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<gnuoy> jamespage, you#re down for next week, can you managed that, I know its late in the UK?
<gnuoy> if not you can always swap I guess
<gnuoy> Date 2016-06-15, same time, same place
<beisner> comedians here today, jeez!
<jamespage> I can
<gnuoy> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jun  8 17:29:24 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-08-17.00.moin.txt
<beisner> thx gnuoy & thx all
<coreycb> thanks gnuoy
<icey> thanks!
<thedac> thanks gnuoy
<gnuoy> np
<tinwood> thanks gnuoy
<jamespage> thanks gnuoy
<jamespage> ttfn
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-06-09
<pitti> o/
 * slangasek waves
<robru> \o
<xnox> yo
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  9 15:02:53 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
<slangasek> robru doko sil2100 infinity chiluk slangasek bdmurray xnox caribou pitti tdaitx cyphermox barry
<slangasek> robru: tag
<robru> I win!
<cyphermox> boo, I keep losing
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * various iterations & fixes on audit log reporting of new parallel build/diff job
<robru> * various debian/changelog generation fixes
<robru> * resurrect 0replaceme version-munging feature in debian/ dir.
<robru> * move "show/hide audit log" button to a more usable location
<robru> * halve disk space usage by not unpacking DSCs twice while diffing
<robru> * cleanup redundant gpgv noise in build logs
<robru> * prevent old xenial+vivid silos from building (must migrate to trio)
<robru> * implement locking to prevent concurrent job runs
<robru> * notify user when ticket is "queued" for britney but first run hasn't started yet
<robru> * added chronological list of all job logs: https://requests.ci-train.ubuntu.com/log/
<robru> * stop running britney on silos already approved by britney or qa (speeds britney runs from 80 minutes to 20 minutes)
<doko> - last week at PyCon, came back yesterday, catching up with things, and will summarize PyCon later this week
<doko> (done)
<pitti> robru: you aren't using debdiff? or did you optimize that?
<slangasek> sil2100 says he'll be a little late for the meeting
<robru> pitti: yes, what happened is that dget and debdiff both 'dpkg-source -x' the dsc into different places. I suppressed dget's unpacking.
<slangasek> hmm no infinity
<slangasek> chiluk:
<pitti> robru: oh, nice idea, so once britney is content you don't re-run her to have second thoughts? :-)
<robru> pitti: yeah, lots of redundant britney runs on silos already-approved. and bileto is already smart enough to clear all the signoffs when a silo is rebuilt so I think this is a safe change
<pitti> robru: yes, I agree, should be safe (unless the silo actually changes)
<robru> pitti: even a manual upload, while 'Currently building' will clear all the signoffs and force a fresh britney run
<pitti> nice
<slangasek>  * working on SRU queue
<slangasek>  * continuing to work through the libpoppler transition, which keeps getting bigger each time I look at it; now only 2 blocking packages out of 160
<slangasek>  * snapd accepted into Debian unstable
<slangasek>  * sprint planning
<slangasek>  * taking tomorrow off for travel swap
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<slangasek> (done)
<bdmurray> short week w/ Friday holiday
<bdmurray> discussed retracing arm64 and ppc64el with pitti
<bdmurray> review of the retracer statuses (looks good after 711 roll-out)
<bdmurray> worked w/ webops about RT 91903 (gunicorn timeout) being not resolved
<bdmurray> updated my apport retracer branch w/ upstream changes
<bdmurray> backported gdb version 7.11 for Error Tracker
<bdmurray> added some people to Error Tracker access group
<bdmurray> redeployment of devops / staging Error Tracker setup
<bdmurray> reported bug 1588479 re: dkms kernel check
<bdmurray> submitted MP re sru tools adding release tasks
<ubottu> bug 1588479 in dkms (Ubuntu) "dkms_packages.py supported kernel check seems wrong" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1588479
<bdmurray> investigation into trevino being emailed multiple times about regressions
<bdmurray> fixed phased updater issue with unicode and uploader names
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> SRU review of xenial / kpatch for arges
<bdmurray> updated snapd SRU wiki page
<bdmurray> updated teams for rls mgr reports
<cyphermox> am I getting the messages out of order or were they pasted that way?
<cyphermox> (ie. done earlier, etc..)
<caribou> UDP pasting
<xnox> lol
<bdmurray> I was well done, not pre done
<robru> cyphermox: bdmurray I also see three lines after done
<cyphermox> ok :)
<xnox> me?
<xnox> progress on ubuntu advantage
<xnox> progress on test images for L1CC
<xnox> s390-tools fixes with an SRU bug #1567473, bug #1580226, bug #1582728
<xnox> libseccomp merge #1580558 and oprofile merge #1581540
<xnox> debconf & anthens organisation
<xnox> done
<ubottu> bug 1567473 in s390-tools (Ubuntu Xenial) "s390-tools: missing ts-shell" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1567473
<ubottu> bug 1580226 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "Please install the iucvtty-login@.service instance service unit" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1580226
<ubottu> bug 1582728 in s390-tools (Ubuntu Xenial) "DASDFMT fails with a buffer overflow error" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1582728
<caribou>  Bugfix :
<caribou>  - multipathd double-free coredump LP: #1535898
<caribou>    Identified missed patch proposed by cyphermox.
<caribou>    Testing on system that can easily reproduce the core
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1535898 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Precise) "Trusty & Vivid multipath-tools (multipathd) seg-fault core dump" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1535898
<caribou>  Development work:
<caribou>  - Various merges :
<caribou>    corosync : reviewing upstream changes before syncing
<caribou>    kexec-tools
<caribou>    clamav
<caribou>  - Investigate crashdump charm enablement of remote dumps
<caribou>    Misc sponsor : isc-dhcp, swauth, multipath-tools
<caribou>  - Interviews
<caribou>  â Done
<slangasek> xnox: so you're our designated translator in Athens, right? :)
<slangasek> (you pasted one word in Greek into a team meeting months ago; this makes you an expert)
<caribou> then anyone talking about alpha & beta would become experts
<xnox> slangasek, no thanks.... however do note that intercity bus information for KTEL busses is only provided in Greek, via local greek telephone line, with no bus numbers / route maps / bus stops / or timetables and one should just "hail" it.
<cyphermox> caribou: that's two letters < one word
<pitti> network YAML config:
<pitti>  - several looong meetings about the design, bringing snappy into the picture
<pitti>  - rewrote spec accordingly, the format starts looking and working well
<pitti>  - started implementation of this in https://git.launchpad.net/~pitti/+git/ubuntu-network-config/
<pitti> autopkgtest: Reorganize storage on debci which was utterly slow and getting out of space
<pitti> meeting: upower vs. unity-settings-daemon vs. powerd
<pitti> merges: cdebconf, ifupdown, resolvconf
<pitti> python-dbusmock: Review/land Pete's branch, new upstream release, backport to overlay PPA
<pitti> Revisit what /etc/init.d/ondemand should do, and provide replacement unit (#1579278, #1584124)
<pitti> some more work on dropping initscripts dependencies
<pitti> usual archive admin/proposed-migration/SRU chores
<pitti> (done)
<sil2100> o/
<slangasek> xnox: surely google maps tracks the buses in realtime with or without their cooperation
<slangasek> tdaitx is out this week
<slangasek> sil2100: hi, your turn :)
<sil2100> Oooo
<sil2100> Ok
<sil2100> (sorry for being late)
<sil2100> - Recovering from a laptop hardware failure, trying to retreive all data
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM status meetings
<sil2100> - Xenial touch transition:
<sil2100>   * Building initramfs-tools-ubuntu-touch dependencies for arm64
<sil2100>   * Working on getting initramfs-tools-ubuntu-touch buildable on arm64
<sil2100> - Adding channels.json re-signing to the re-sign-indexes script on system-image
<sil2100> - Looking into necessary changes to landing-team scripts
<sil2100> - Fixing yakkety touch builds
<sil2100> - Testing and landing the lxc and ltt-control silos for vivid
<sil2100> - DMB meeting
<sil2100> - Flight preparatinon for nearing sprint
<sil2100> (done)
<xnox> slangasek, they were pissed off at one website that did the screen scrapping and they pulled the info off the web and changed the timetables to screw with everybody. So even google maps doesn't know. I might need to try openstreetmap or something.
<cyphermox> precise:
<cyphermox> - debugging sbsigntool cert expiry error (bug LP: #1234649)
<cyphermox> - sbsigntool SRUs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1234649 in sbsigntool (Ubuntu Precise) "UEFI shim verification against microsoft-uefica-public.pem fails with 20131003 saucy images" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1234649
<cyphermox> xenial:
<cyphermox> - libdebian-installer SRU EFI detection (bug LP: #1582320)
<cyphermox> - upload grub2/shim-signed/dkms SRU for SB
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1582320 in libdebian-installer (Ubuntu Xenial) "libdebian-installer uses a different detection method for EFI than efivar" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1582320
<cyphermox> yakkety:
<cyphermox> - aptdaemon port to packagekit 1.1.1 (bug LP: #1496292)
<cyphermox> - debugging timezone crash in ubiquity (bug LP: #1587555)
<cyphermox> - fix console-setup install in ubiquity (bug LP: #1578285)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1496292 in packagekit (Ubuntu) "Needs to be ported to packagekit 1" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1496292
<slangasek> xnox: I assumed google knew by crowdsourcing pictures of buses in the background of photos in realtime
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1587555 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Installer crashed during installation" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1587555
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1578285 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity 16.10.1 fails at keyboard setup page" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1578285
<cyphermox>  - fix from Dan Watkins for apt-setup notice for universe packages (bug LP: #1590358)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1590358 in apt-setup (Ubuntu Xenial) "universe description incorrectly suggests software may be non-free" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1590358
<cyphermox>   - + SRU to xenial
<cyphermox> - libdebian-installer efi detection fix (bug LP: #1582320)
<xnox> slangasek, lol
<cyphermox> - shim-signed re-enable and dkms check
<cyphermox> - tracking down missing /etc/default/rcS
<cyphermox>   - missing because procps no longer Depends on initscripts; needs fixing in clock-setup/ubiquity to guard against ENOENT
<cyphermox>  - ubiquity update (d-i packages) and pyflakes fixes
<cyphermox> - upload shim-signed minor fixes for update-secureboot-policy
<cyphermox> Â±other stuff:
<cyphermox> - SecureBoot testing
<cyphermox> - various meetings about networking
<cyphermox> (done â)
<cyphermox> want to hear an UDP joke?
<xnox> go on
<cyphermox> you won't get it, and I really don't care.
 * xnox LOL
<slangasek> two packets went into a tunnel
<slangasek> and no barry this morning, per his email (status on the list)
<slangasek> any questions?
<robru> heh
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Sprint prep
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Sprint prep
<slangasek> only two more days, hopefully you all have your tickets booked ;P
<slangasek> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rdiLICseBxX6Gml586DR1YDaFmbYuGEUcayFKdYAWRY/edit
 * ogra_ has :)
<slangasek> get your topics on the agenda, please
<caribou> slangasek: yes, on Air France which will be on strike on sunday :-/
<slangasek> cross-team topics, I'm planning on scheduling on the Client Track calendar
<cyphermox> caribou: you'll be walking?!
<ogra_> there might be ferries too
<caribou> cyphermox: yes, I'm leaving right after the meeting
<cyphermox> caribou: cool ;)
<slangasek> internal topics, I was not planning on scheduling on the calendar; if anyone has a topic that they think needs an explicit meeting scheduled, feel free to put it on the Foundations calendar or just ask me to schedule it
<pitti> cyphermox: aptdaemon port> nice! so aptdaemon is still a thing, even with gnome-software?
<slangasek> ogra_, caribou: yes, I hear a lot of people take the boat to Greece nowadays
<cyphermox> pitti: there are things using it; it seemed less involved / less work to just fix it enough for it to work
<ogra_> ow
<cyphermox> pitti: so; aptdaemon but no pkcompat.
<cyphermox> that means there is still some work necessary to make sure all is well and that packagekit will finally transition.
<sil2100> ogra_: oh my, you'll be on the sprint as well?
<ogra_> sil2100, yeah, there was beer left and they needed someone to drink it all up
<ogra_> so i volunteered
<sil2100> ogra_: like good old times then
<sil2100> ;)
<ogra_> yeah :D
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else today?
<cyphermox> fyi, I'll be out for the afternoon
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  9 15:27:25 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-06-09-15.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> Thanks!
<pitti> Î²Î»Î­ÏÎµÎ¹Ï ÏÏÎ·Î½ ÎÎ»Î»Î¬Î´Î±!
<caribou> thanks!
<cyphermox> pitti takes the expert flag!
<cyphermox> thanks!
<pitti> the "expert on using translate.google.com" flag? :-)
<pitti> "see you in Greece!"
<cyphermox>  ;)
<sil2100> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-06-05
<cyphermox> anyone here for the DMB meeting?
<jbicha> o/
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  5 16:31:00 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Roger A. Light (ral) provided debdiffs for trusty-artful for mosquitto (LP: #1692818)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1692818 in mosquitto (Ubuntu) "Mosquitto pattern ACLs can be circumvented with special client ids or usernames" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1692818
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on bug triage this week
<mdeslaur> and I'm currently publishing puppet and libtasn updates
<mdeslaur> I have a couple more to test, then I'll be picking something else off the list
<mdeslaur> that's it, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm on cve triage this week
<sbeattie> I have an embargoed issue on my plate
<sbeattie> I'm working on a sudo update
<sbeattie> and I'll have some kernel triage bits to handle, too
<sbeattie> That's probably my week.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: over to you
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I have eCryptfs patch review to do (kernel and userspace patches)
<tyhicks> they've been piling up
<tyhicks> I'd like to make progress on the seccomp kernel patches but I think I need to catch up with kees first on a remaining design issue
<tyhicks> would be nice to finish my elfutils updates
<tyhicks> additional security updates as time allows
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I have and LSS talk/discussion proposal to get together
<jjohansen> and I will have LSS program committee duties/voting todo this week too
<jjohansen> I need to finish up the merge against the security tree, which finally merged again 4.12
<jjohansen> and then I have a little more patch work to finish up to get a pull request out
<jjohansen> After that I will need to look at a few bugs, update suse on the 4.13 kernel for the Fate request around snappy
<jjohansen> and hopefully get a start on the 4.14 upstreaming
<jjohansen> thats about it for me, sarnold you're up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place; I have two more sponsored updates from last week to finish off if no one has said they broke anything important, finish the xdelta3 mir, and review whatever patches jjohansen feels would be worth reviewing
<sarnold> I think that covers it; is chrisccoulson around or is uk on holiday?
<chrisccoulson> I'm here
<chrisccoulson> I've got firefox updates to prepare this week. Also, I think it's chrome release week (although I've not been tracking that closely anymore), which means chromium updates too
<chrisccoulson> Also working on an embargoed issue
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<tyhicks> ratliff: you're up
<ratliff> I'm on community this week.
<ratliff> I will spend most of my week focused on internal duties.
<ratliff> The rest I will spend on technical communication and updates to Ubuntu Core 15
<ratliff> back to you, tyhicks
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/hexchat.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/yodl.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/snort.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/davfs2.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ironic.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  5 16:48:03 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-06-05-16.31.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks1
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-06-06
<teward> *coughs*
<slashd> o/ is there a server meeting today ?
<nacc> slashd: yeah, we're organizing now
<cpaelzer> o/
<nacc> sorry rbasak is out and supposed to chair
<slashd> nacc, was just wondering cause I know there is a few sprint ongoing this week
<teward> riight, wasn't the release notes sprint one of them I don't remember...
<teward> :P
<nacc> slashd: yeah, most of us are the sprint :)
<teward> also TOTALLY unrelated, what does one need to know to chair a meeting :P
<nacc> teward: basically, this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<teward> and bot commands of course :p
<nacc> teward: there's a a link at hte bottom for c&p commands
<nacc> teward: and then at the end, we try to send the log to ubuntu-server@ and ubuntu-devel@
<powersj> o/
<teward> but basically anyone could technically do it lol
<nacc> teward: yes
<teward> powersj: \o
<nacc> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  6 16:04:57 2017 UTC.  The chair is nacc. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<nacc> I'll chair for rbasak this week
<nacc> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<nacc> we haven't quite gotten to those items for this week
<teward> carry all of them over :P
<nacc> #info carry all items over to next week
<nacc> we do have it as an action this week for the sprint to try and get them done
<nacc> oh there is one done one
<nacc> #done dpb to look into a few open issues around automatic updates that were pointed out by the doc team (carried over)
<nacc> turned out to be a known issue, and resolve already in 16.04.2
<nacc> moving on
<nacc> #topic Artful Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Artful Development
<nacc> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseSchedule
<nacc> anything anyone want to highlight/bring up?
<nacc> i think we are in pretty good shape for merges
<cpaelzer> we lack release notes atm
<teward> well except for nginx merges
<nacc> (debian freeze is helping)
<cpaelzer> I wanted to add something but the skeleton isn#t there yet
<nacc> teward: yeah, but you're *always* good :)
<teward> cpaelzer: i think that's on the list for one of the sprints?
<cpaelzer> to create the initial template?
<teward> nacc: eh, well, in this case, stress and T-Storms didn't help my task list for friday evening.
<cpaelzer> I'd think that is on foundations
<teward> cpaelzer: oh the TEMPLATE, right.  My bad :)
<nacc> teward: not a problem! you've got a while :)
<teward> *needs more coffee*
<cpaelzer> the actions for the sprint is to complete all sorts of release notes things - yes
<nacc> #subtopic blueprints
<nacc> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-aa-server-core
<nacc> we are moving from the blueprint this cycle to a public trello board
<cpaelzer> https://trello.com/b/U9HhWyT0/ubuntu-server-daily
<nacc> #link https://trello.com/b/U9HhWyT0/ubuntu-server-daily
<nacc> #subtopic Release Bugs
<nacc> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<nacc> not too much there still
<nacc> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd)
<nacc> slashd: go ahead :)
<slashd> Here's the report : http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/24794797/ , you'll notice that we have a couple SRU verifications needed. I know most of the SRU folks are sprinting, but if one of you can unblock us for this week It'll be appreciated. Otherwise, we will wait next week.
<slashd> #info SRU pending for : sssd, nfs-utils, keystone, neutron, openssl, ebtables isc-dhcp, vlan, percona-xtradb-cluster-5.5
<nacc> slashd: i'll put it on the list for this week
<nacc> slashd: or do those need SRU team processing?
<slashd> nacc, It required SRU member for most of them I think, minus the upload of 'isc-dhcp' in artful, which could be done by someone with the proper upload right
<nacc> slashd: ok, thanks
<slashd> nacc, I'll take care of the stable release, but I don't have upload right on devel release yet
<nacc> slashd: got it
<slashd> it's all for me
<nacc> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<nacc> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<nacc> slashd: thanks!
<nacc> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<powersj> #info last week server ISOs are back and working and KPI dashboard work
<nacc> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<powersj> #info this week attending server sprint, working on cloud-init CI pipeline, and resolving lxd 2.14 + pylxd issues
<powersj> questions?
<nacc> powersj: thanks!
<nacc> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<slashd> nacc, I forgot to mention that ddstreet will be my STS backup for this meeting, when I'm out
<nacc> slashd: thanks!
<smb> I got nothing
<nacc> smb: ok, thanks!
<nacc> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<nacc> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<nacc> nothing too important upcoming
<nacc> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<nacc> nothing upcoming
<nacc> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<nacc> anything anyone would like to bring up?
<nacc> silence == endmeeting
<nacc> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<nacc> rbasak is still up, same time & place
<nacc> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  6 16:18:48 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-06-06-16.04.moin.txt
<nacc> thanks everyone!
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-06-04
<slashd> o/
<sil2100> o/
<rbasak> o/
<sil2100> Not much on the agenda I guess, I removed the item regarding TB actions for the new DMB members
<rbasak> I'd like comment on https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2018-April/001275.html please
<sil2100> I guess we also have all the ML and IRC permissions set up?
<rbasak> I started writing up https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Checklist_after_a_DMB_election
<sil2100> Good idea!
<slashd> rbasak, good idea indeed
<sil2100> rbasak: are you still editing it or can I add something?
<rbasak> I'm not editing it. Please take the lock.
<micahg> o/
<sil2100> Does it make sense to start a formal meeting if there's no actions for the meeting?
<micahg> rbasak: you want feedback on the ML?
<micahg> not realy
<rbasak> micahg: I like to reach consensus on landing the changes, or a modified version of it. I think we have quorum here now so we could just do it here perhaps?
<rbasak> Or the ML is also fine.
<rbasak> I don't mind if we use meetingology or not
<sil2100> Feedback on what?
<rbasak> My ML archive URL above
<sil2100> Ah, missed that one
<sil2100> Thanks
<micahg> rbasak: we've generally avoided checklists, I'm wondering if people will glance at the bullet points and think those are the only reasons for applying
<sil2100> Let me see how the template looks now, since I last looked at it quite some time ago
<sil2100> I guess there is risk that would happen - maybe we should put those bullet-points as examples in the template, not as finished points?
<sil2100> Sure, some might copy-paste those as well, but yeah
<sil2100> It's the same when we ask them the same thing on meetings
<micahg> right, but there isn't not a guide for new applicants :)
<micahg> s/isn't/it's/
<rbasak> I tried to keep it clear that it isn't rigid
<rbasak> micahg: I don't see anything I've proposed as a checklist. Which part in particular do you think is one?
<micahg> reasons for applying
<micahg> I have to run, I'll check the backlog when I get home
<slashd> I don't see it as a checklist too, it's just guidelines to help evaluate when one should apply and to also show what are DMB expectations when applying.
<rbasak> It's why I said "Remove any reasons that don't apply, add any extra reasons and edit as
<rbasak> needed"
<rbasak> I wanted it to be clear that they can change it.
<rbasak> micahg: how about I add a sentence to that, saying "These examples are the common and expected case, but are not a hard requirement for applications" or similar?
<slashd> rbasak, that might be a good idea in case others see it as a checklist too.
<sil2100> I'm fine with both versions - the one proposed now or the first one
<slashd> same here
<rbasak> Thanks. I'll see what micahg says when he gets back.
<mdeslaur> \o
<ratliff> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  4 16:31:59 2018 UTC.  The chair is ratliff. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ratliff> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<ratliff> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<ratliff> There are no announcements this week.
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<ratliff> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> This week I plan to:
<jdstrand> - hopefully turn on resquashfs tests. electron upstream is now fixed. A bit of review-tools work is needed to add an override mechanism
<jdstrand> - iterate on various PRs I submitted last week related to udev
<jdstrand> - adjust snap-confine to always use a device cgroup
<jdstrand> - work through design considerations with niemeyer wrt update-alternatives (or something similar) snapd interface
<jdstrand> - go through the anbox design and think through what proper confinment might look like
<jdstrand> - pick up review-tools snap USNs phase1/part ii work as have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm still in the happy place
<mdeslaur> I published exempi updates this morning
<mdeslaur> and am in the process of publishing an apport update for 14.04
<mdeslaur> after that, I'll work on more updates
<mdeslaur> that's about it, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I'm working on the git update, it's kind of gnarly.
<sbeattie> I have some internal things to look at
<sbeattie> I have the usual kernel cve triage bits to work on
<sbeattie> That's probably it for me. jjohansen, over to you
<jjohansen> I am working on finishing getting together the apparmor pull request for 4.18.
<jjohansen> kernel ompatibility networking patches for the apparmor 2.x series
<jjohansen> reviewing mjg's networking patches
<jjohansen> and also working on the apparmor 3.0 release
<jjohansen> we still have some caching bugs to working out, subset of features support, and uhmm something else that is slipping my mind atm
<jjohansen> sarnold: you are up
<sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> happy to review any apparmor patches that fall out of ^^
<sarnold> and will finish the google gce .. something .. MIR this week
<sarnold> hopefully make good progress on the next one on the list, bug triage is usually not terrible
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I'm expecting a chromium update this week. I'm still expecting thunderbird too
<chrisccoulson> I also need to spend some time getting ready for the next thunderbird update (from 52.x to 60.x)
<chrisccoulson> I'm not expecting to have to spend time on rust, so other than that I'll be free to work on other things :)
<chrisccoulson> that's me done
<ratliff> I'm on community this week.
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: re rust> yay!
<ratliff> I have internal work relating to https://grnh.se/b2d0bf371 (Ubuntu Security Engineer job posting) and other internal tasks.
<ratliff> leosilva: on to you
<leosilva> I'm on CVE-triage this week
<leosilva> I have procps update to USN for precise-esm
<leosilva> and I'm working on liblouis update
<leosilva> I also plan to get other updates to do.
<leosilva> that's it from me.
<leosilva> ratliff: it's back to you
<ratliff> thanks, leosilva
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<ratliff> The Ubuntu Security team suggests that contributors look into merging Debian security updates in community-supported packages. If you would like to help Ubuntu but are not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<ratliff> See http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/ for available merges and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details on preparing Ubuntu security updates. If you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-hardened. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<ratliff> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<ratliff> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, chrisccoulson, leosilva: Thanks!
<ratliff> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  4 16:46:03 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-06-04-16.31.moin.txt
<leosilva> thanks ratliff!
<jdstrand> thanks ratliff :)
<mdeslaur> thanks ratliff!
<sarnold> thanks ratliff!
<jjohansen> thanks ratliff
<sbeattie> ratliff: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks ratliff!
<mdeslaur> ratliff: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-06-05
* crazyhacker changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: #hackerspace-silesia
* crazyhacker changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: #hackerspace-silesia
* cjwatson changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<Breder> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
<Breder> !ops
<tsimonq2> Breder: Please stop calling the OPs.
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-06-09
<ruller43> TESTING TESTING
<ruller43> TESTING TESTING
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-06-03
<sil2100> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<tribaal> o/
<sil2100> hm, so it's just the 3 of us? (hi tribaal!)
<cyphermox> sil2100: #notquorate
 * tribaal was just lurking and so decided to say hi.
<sil2100> teward: hey! I guess we don't have quorum once again, would it be ok for your application to be moved for the next meeting?
<sil2100> cyphermox: just a heads up about the ongoing e-mail vote for Dan
<sil2100> I need to vote as well myself, but just making sure it's not forgotten
<cyphermox> yup
<teward> sil2100: yes, but it'd need to be moved such that it's at around the same hour
<teward> the problem i had today was work internet went down so I couldn't get here sooner sorry
 * teward blames the other IT guy breaking routing on the network
<teward> i'll CC the list with the statement.
<sil2100> teward: thanks! And sorry about that, we just today got notice that 3 of our members couldn't appear
<teward> sil2100: actually the June 17th meeting is sufficient, we can move it to there.
<teward> I'll CC the list anyways
<teward> and if there's any need to move the vote/consideration to email that's also acceptable ;P
<teward> MOST of the DMB probably recognizes my name xD
<sil2100> ;)
<teward> sil2100: updated agenda to show 17th as next date, and logged June 3 as "Lack of Quorum".  Probably futzed the structure of the thing, but you'll get the idea.  Unrelated, formatting in the wiki is a pain >.>
<teward> sil2100: also sent to the permissions list as well indicating the consideration was moved, so if anyone needs to weigh in that way they can.
<sil2100> teward: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-06-06
<sil2100> o/
<juliank> o//
<waveform> o/
<tdaitx> o~
 * vorlon waves
<juliank> \o\|o|/o/
 * mwhudson appears in a puff of smoke
<juliank> you are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike
 * mwhudson picks up a d-i component
<waveform> go north
<cyphermox> mwhudson: chair?
<juliank> mwhudson realizes the d-i component he picked up is a chair
<mwhudson> cyphermox: please not
<cyphermox> XD
<gaughen> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  6 15:06:02 2019 UTC.  The chair is gaughen. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<gaughen> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<gaughen> xnox bdmurray vorlon tdaitx mwhudson infinity juliank rbalint sil2100 waveform doko cyphermox
<gaughen> xnox, you won!
<gaughen> or did cyphermox win?
<bdmurray> worked with webops regarding retracers unable to connect to cassandra
<bdmurray> reported bug regarding tar extract xattrs only doing user.* (LP: #1831150)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1831150 in tar (Ubuntu) "only user.* extended attributes restored upon extraction" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831150
<rbalint> (headlight) xnox enabled lz4
<bdmurray> also reported it upstream to the GNU bug tracker
<gaughen> bdmurray, go while xnox is away
<bdmurray> research into history of the addition of xattrs support into tar
<bdmurray> sent an email to the bug-tar mailing list regarding extract and xattrs
<bdmurray> reviewed mlocate thread, sent summary to foundations mailing list
<bdmurray> looked into how Fedora, CentOS install and configure mlocate
<bdmurray> commented on snapcraft forum post re: offline do-release-upgrade and snap transition
<bdmurray> meetings regarding rls- tagged bug backlog and review of bugs
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * laying out specs for the cycle roadmap
<vorlon>  * reviewing specs
<vorlon>  * discussions around architectures
<vorlon>  * SRU reviews
<vorlon>  * livecd-rootfs SRUs for minimal images; and another one in the pipe to fix snap seeding on bionic
<vorlon> (done)
<tdaitx> Out on most of Tuesday because I enjoy waiting in lines for appointments.
<tdaitx> * report on removed debian packages that might be blocking proposed-migration
<tdaitx>   - based on code from process-removals (probably should be extracted as a lib later on)
<tdaitx>   - looking at other scripts that generate reports (isn't there a way other than mixing python and html?)
<tdaitx> * looking over improving openjdk autopkgtests
<tdaitx>   - fetching buildlogs and autopkgtest results to filter out unstable tests from the openjdk testsuite
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - keeping track of the openjdk pre-releases
<tdaitx> (done)
<mwhudson> got reusing-partitions into review
<mwhudson> looked at finalrd-related autopkgtest failures
<mwhudson> thinking about unattended server installs
<mwhudson> (fin)
<mwhudson> oh yeah and flew to europe with small children
<vorlon> bdmurray: do you have a link to the offline do-release-upgrade question?
<bdmurray> vorlon: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/offline-do-release-upgrades-from-xenial-to-bionic-introducing-snap-pkgs/11327/5
<mwhudson> tdaitx: well the report i added uses jinja2
<sil2100> No infinity?
<sil2100> juliank
<juliank>  * (was out last week Wed, Thu, and Fri)
<juliank>  * Uploaded apport/xenial that fixes its linux vs. linux-signed autopkgtest failure
<juliank>  * SRUed lvm2 fix for path of systemd-run in 69-lvm-metad.rules (LP: #1830169)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1830169 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "lvm udev rule fails to call systemd-run" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1830169
<juliank>  * Analysed other apport/xenial autopkgtest failures re launchpad interaction
<juliank>  * Investigating autopkgtest failures for my pending SRUs
<juliank> (done I think)
<rbalint> (two weeks with ~one on vacation)
<rbalint> * proposed patch for qemu LP: #1823872 to let other security updates installed when the installed unattended-upgrades is not fixed, released throught -security* proposed patch for qemu LP: #1823872 to let other security updates installed when the installed unattended-upgrades is not fixed, released throught -security
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1823872 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Trusty) "Fixing fsfreeze-hook can break unattended upgrades" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1823872
<rbalint> * fixed LP: #1830427
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1830427 in ec2-hibinit-agent (Ubuntu Disco) "Instance may loose network connectivity after resuming the 2nd time" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1830427
<rbalint> * unattended-upgrades fixes
<rbalint> * Fixed 16.04 WSL app that installed 18.04 accidentally
<rbalint> * updated wireshark through Debian to 2.6.9
<rbalint> * updated gce-compute-image-packages to 20190522 including preparing SRUs
<rbalint> * uploaded updated waylandpp to unstable then synced it to eoan
<rbalint> * partner work
<rbalint> (done)
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Ouchy on Friday, had PM off
<sil2100> - Kernel SRU releases - phasing out the releases this time
<sil2100> - Short DMB meeting (no quorum)
<sil2100> - Preparing two solution-propositions for the classic preinstalled image /boot/grub upgrade problem
<sil2100>   * One in livecd-rootfs and one in ubuntu-image - not sure which is the best way
<sil2100> - Modifying kernel-sru-release to support releasing kernels to -updates and then -security only
<sil2100> - Poking people for testing the -security updated toolchain packages
<sil2100> - Copying the toolchain packages to -proposed, making sure they look good
<sil2100> - NEW reviews:
<sil2100>   * BinNEW review of ubuntustudio-look
<sil2100>   * A NEW review of lsp-plugins, iterating on the package some more, finally approved - still waiting for fixes for all arches
<sil2100> - Reviewing and releasing of Dave's new u-boot merge
<sil2100> - Melting, too hot here
<sil2100> (done)
<waveform> * Responded to comments on Pi Amazing spec
<waveform> * Validated Pi3 armhf images work on Pi2 under all circumstances (including kernel upgrades, flash-kernel upgrades, switching cards between machines); prepped branch removing all the pi2 hacks and uboot.env stuff from flash-kernel
<waveform> * Spent Wednesday feeling horrid :(
<waveform> * Digging into Bluetooth on Pi under Ubuntu Core (needs firmware for 3B+, apparmor profiles for raw sockets, and a mechanism to disable UART and kernel serial console to avoid boot cycles)
<waveform> * Proposed livecd-rootfs change to seed cloud-init from boot partition on Pi (changes to pi3-gadget are already committed)
<waveform> (done)
<gaughen> doko,
<doko> - OpenJDK fun ...  Had a phone call with AdoptJDK and some Debian maintainers about the current versioning rants/issues. Up
<doko> dated OpenJDK 8, LTS and 13 packages.
<doko> - Python 3.8 beta1
<doko> - GCC clash protection and cet updates, together with amurray
<doko> (done)
<tdaitx> mwhudson: nice! thanks for the pointer
<gaughen> cyphermox,
<cyphermox> - shim review: Endless, Newstart, Hiddn Security
<cyphermox> - coordinating work for shim update / planning for signing artifact changes for shim 16 (reproducible builds)
<cyphermox> - networkmanager autopkgtests / handoff to desktop team
<cyphermox> - re-started grub2 merge + grub-initrd-fallback.service changes / bootctl support
<cyphermox> - more on 'netplan info' spec / proof of concept
<cyphermox> - walinuxagent update (bug LP: #1827995)
<cyphermox> - consulting on some NAC questions
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1827995 in walinuxagent (Ubuntu) "Request to integrate Microsoft's new Azure Linux Agent 2.2.40" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1827995
<cyphermox> (done)
<gaughen> #topic Release incoming bugs (bionic)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs (bionic)
<gaughen> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1831252
<ubottu> bug 1831252 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu Bionic) "panic=-1 is completely ignored by the initrd causing unexpected behaviour" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831252
<bdmurray> that's an ee bug I guess I jumped the gun
<juliank> No foundations bugs in bb-incoming
<rbalint> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<gaughen> #topic Release incoming bugs (eoan)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs (eoan)
<gaughen> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1831252
<ubottu> bug 1831252 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu Bionic) "panic=-1 is completely ignored by the initrd causing unexpected behaviour" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831252
<bdmurray> ogra: Are you planning on working on that bug?
<ogra> bdmurray, i discussed it with xnox and thought this is foundations land
<ogra> we have fixed it downstream for the specific customer that had issues with it though (by simply setting panic=30)
<ogra> so i wasnt actually planning to ...
<vorlon> I don't understand how the initramfs handling of the panic argument on the kernel commandline in any way impacts the kernel's behavior
<ogra> it doesnt
<vorlon> I expect that to be handled in kernel
<vorlon> I agree it's foundations' responsibility if there's a bug in initramfs-tools
<vorlon> I just don't yet understand the stated bug
<vorlon> I guess we should take it for investigation
<cyphermox> otoh later you'll have a mangled kernel cmdline in userspace; is that an issue? why are we even mucking with panic= in initramfs?
<ogra> panic=-1 is a kernel option to force immediate reboot (vs using a positive value for delay)
<vorlon> cyphermox: the kernel commandline is not writable by init
<cyphermox> vorlon: no, but things in initramfs may want it for some reason
<cyphermox> and it would be in some environment, even if it's not modified in /proc/cmdline
<ogra> and in the initrd script there is no handling of negative values so it drops you to a shell instead of rebooting
<vorlon> right, so if the kernel panics, it itself should see the panic=-1 on the (immutable) commandline
<vorlon> and reboot
<cyphermox> yup
<vorlon> and bugger userspace
<ogra> except that its not the kernel that panics but an initrd script that fails
<vorlon> you're saying the initramfs script fails because the option is set?
<ogra> then the panic() function kicks in ... fails and drops to a shell
<ogra> yes
<vorlon> ok
<ogra> it has no handling for panic=-1
<vorlon> so yes, let's dig into that
<gaughen> vorlon, thoughts on the importance?
<vorlon> gaughen: medium, really
<ogra> if you use secureboot you probably dont want the system to drop you into a shell at any time ... in case an admin has set panic=-1
<gaughen> should we shove this discussion in the bug?
<ogra> s/shell/root shell/
<xnox> bah
<xnox> bah
<xnox> bah
<vorlon> black sheep
<bdmurray> have you any wool?
<gaughen> xnox!
<gaughen> welcome
<gaughen> missed you
<gaughen> xnox, don't worry rbalint gave your status
<xnox> status report no ready: openssl, zecureboot, subiquity, systemd, kernel =)
<bdmurray> bug 1823434 came out of rls-dd review
<ubottu> bug 1823434 in pkg-config (Ubuntu) "pkg-config ftbfs in disco" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1823434
<gaughen> xnox, we've moved on
<vorlon> I've confirmed the build failure
<vorlon> in ee
<vorlon> I'm surprised it's not also reported in Debian, but it looks like we have a newer version than they do
<gaughen> I think we should handle this one. Will card it
<vorlon> I think we should (auto-)commit to all ftbfs fixes of our packages in main
<gaughen> I'm okay with us quickly going through these, just quick.
<gaughen> next one bdmurray!
<bdmurray> bug 1798369
<ubottu> bug 1798369 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Reinstall Ubuntu (with preserving existing data) shows error message due to "Could not get lock /target/var/cache/apt/archives/lock"" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798369
<bdmurray> I tested this the other day and while I didn't get the same error message I did still get an error
<vorlon> did this one come up in a different context last meeting?
<vorlon> the bug is familiar
<bdmurray> Yes, does that option still exist was the question so I tested it
<cyphermox> we did bring up other ubiqutiy bugs last meeting
<vorlon> ok
<xnox> vorlon:  panic is also used by initramfs, and drops to shell with '-1' setting instead of actually panicing kernel, for it to read panic= and do the instant reboot.
<xnox> vorlon:  the panic() function of initramfs.
<gaughen> xnox, you're living in the past!
<gaughen> we've moved on
<vorlon> xnox: so there's only impact if something else in the initramfs is broken
<xnox> vorlon:  yes.
<vorlon> hence, medium
<bdmurray> That's it for high bugs
<vorlon> I notice this is in the list https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/1825001
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1825001 in apt (Ubuntu) "Allow archives to send a 4xx response to tell apt to try again later" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<vorlon> triaged as wishlist
<vorlon> but it's a request from Canonical IS
<gaughen> bdmurray and cyphermox are going to meet offline and burn through the whole ee list
<vorlon> because they want to mitigate the impact of apt client requests when the pipe is over capacity
<juliank> oh, god I was scrolled up in the buffer
<juliank> So the main issue I think is that systemd does not give us an option to do retries on timers
<xnox> vorlon:  do they want to return that to _all_ clients or _some_ clients?
<vorlon> juliank: added a comment to clarify: I think what we actually care about is a user agent in the apt requests
<vorlon> xnox: ^^ that
<juliank> vorlon: There's a different bug for interactive user agent
<vorlon> ah
<vorlon> then maybe this bug should be wontfix
<juliank> vorlon: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt/+bug/1825000
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1825000 in apt (Ubuntu) "Add ability for mirrors to distinguish interactive and non-interactive apt runs" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<vorlon> or fix released
<vorlon> ok then I think the latter (with the lower bug number) is the actually interesting one
<juliank> vorlon: I want to have real retrying if something failed temporarily, but it's blocked on systemd
<juliank> Or writing a daemon or something
<vorlon> juliank: ok, well I think /that/ is truly wishlist
<juliank> Yes, that's what I discussed w/ someone on IRC, and hence the reason why I marked it as wishlist
<vorlon> whereas injecting a different user agent for u-u so that the archive can selectively shed requests when under load is more important
<juliank> But that's not entirely clear
<juliank> We should inject a user agent when running from timers I guess
<vorlon> juliank: what do you think about bumping priority of LP: #1825000 and putting it in the queue?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1825000 in apt (Ubuntu) "Add ability for mirrors to distinguish interactive and non-interactive apt runs" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825000
<vorlon> yeah
<gaughen> vorlon, juliank you two done?
<juliank> Like, also for apt-get update which runs by apt-daily.timer
<gaughen> nope
<vorlon> (do the json hooks give us enough now to inject a U-A header?)
<juliank> Let's bump it to something useful
<juliank> vorlon: No
<vorlon> ok
<gaughen> juliank, vorlon shall I card this?
<vorlon> gaughen: yes please
<bdmurray> Oh, there was one more bug a friend brought up.
<gaughen> moving on
<gaughen> oooh
<bdmurray> bug 1831453 ;-)
<ubottu> bug 1831453 in subiquity (Ubuntu) "[Hyper-V] Install issue for Ubuntu 19.04" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831453
<gaughen> oh me!
<gaughen> I thought that would come up at the end in other topics
<gaughen> thank you bdmurray
<bdmurray> What can I say except "you're welcome"
<gaughen> bdmurray, did you see my eye rolling unicorn gif?
<gaughen> I figured you'd see it since it involved a unicorn and I know how you feel about unicorns
<gaughen> ALTHOUGH, we still don't know who is responsible for the unicorn
 * gaughen is singing "let it go"
<vorlon> I don't understand, what is the reason for this bug being brought in?
<vorlon> who is running subiquity in hyper-v?
<vorlon> and why
<gaughen> the bug submitter
<vorlon> I don't think it's a priority for us to support subiquity under hyper-v
<vorlon> we provide cloud images for hyper-v
<vorlon> and if the submitter is doing this for installer testing, any bugs found on hyper-v only are not a priority
<gaughen> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<gaughen> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<gaughen> lxml
<mwhudson> pandas on ppc64el
<mwhudson> that screams "i want to look at that"
<juliank> who names a package pandas?
<sil2100> mwhudson: that's mine
<gaughen> sil2100, you'll look at lxml/pandas?
<sil2100> I mean, I have it my look-at-list
<vorlon> juliank: scientists
<sil2100> Yep o/
<gaughen> sil2100, okay it's yours!
<mwhudson> ../../../usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/pandas/tests/series/test_analytics.py::TestSeriesAnalytics::test_isin Killed
<gaughen> sil2100, want me to card it?
<sil2100> gaughen: I made a card
<gaughen> sil2100, will you add it to big packages
<gaughen> or whatever steve said
<sil2100> I can confirm and add it if needed
<gaughen> thank you sil2100
<gaughen> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<bdmurray> I'm out this afternoon and tomorrow
<gaughen> bdmurray, have fun up there!
<gaughen> bdmurray, I hear there are 8 kegs of beer being carted up for the event
<gaughen> anything else?
<vorlon> nothing here
<gaughen> oooh!
<gaughen> new chair
<gaughen> juliank!
<gaughen> next chair is juliank
<juliank> ack
<gaughen> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  6 16:02:14 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-06-06-15.06.moin.txt
<sil2100> gaughen: thank you for chairing o/
<gaughen> sil2100, thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-06-01
<tsimonq2> o/
<sil2100> o/
<rbasak> o/
<ddstreet> o/
 * ddstreet coffee while others arrive
<sil2100> I see we don't have any applicants today, right? Though the list of action items seems to be quite big
<rbasak> AFAICS yes
<ddstreet> if rafaeldtinoco chairing today?
<ddstreet> s/if/is
<rafaeldtinoco> am I ?
<rafaeldtinoco> no applicants
<rafaeldtinoco> o/
<ddstreet> no, just the action items to review
<rafaeldtinoco> can someone chair ? we have a concurrent
<rafaeldtinoco> meeting happening
<ddstreet> rbasak you're next on the chairing list, but i assume you are also in that concurrent mtg
<ddstreet> so i can chair as i'm next in the list
<rafaeldtinoco> alright, Ill get the next one
<rafaeldtinoco> thanks dan
<rbasak> Thanks
<ddstreet> ok let me bring up the bot instructions then, one sec
<ddstreet> #startmeeting DMB meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jun  1 15:08:08 2020 UTC.  The chair is ddstreet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic:
<ddstreet> #chair ddstreet
<meetingology> Current chairs: ddstreet
<ddstreet> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<ddstreet> tsimonq2 to better document what we expect applicants to know (carried over)
<rbasak> teward: around?
<ddstreet> i assume this continues to be carried over?  we could change it to (will be carried until mentioned) if so
<teward> hey headbashing atm
<teward> here but i am playing catchup on 2 things
<teward> :)
<ddstreet> tsimonq2 should we carry that item over until mentioned in a future mtg?
<tsimonq2> ddstreet: Sure.
<ddstreet> ack thnx
<tsimonq2> Before that happens...
<ddstreet> #action tsimonq2 to better document what we expect applicants to know (will be carried until mentioned)
<meetingology> ACTION: tsimonq2 to better document what we expect applicants to know (will be carried until mentioned)
<tsimonq2> I'd like to mention I have something started.
<ddstreet> ah ok sorry
<tsimonq2> There are some Lubuntuisms in there, but it's the base for what I'm going to write.
<tsimonq2> It's all good, it's not fully done yet.
<tsimonq2> https://phab.lubuntu.me/w/lubuntu-dev/
<tsimonq2> That's actually based off of the Kubuntu Developers page.
<tsimonq2> Anyway, I thought I'd mention it. We can move on from her.e
<ddstreet> thanks, looks good!
<ddstreet> ok next item
<ddstreet> teward follow up on packageset owning team for ubuntu-mate (carried over)
<teward> still haven't had a chance to, anyone else on the DMB want to take it?
<teward> (one of the billion things that I think I handed to ddstreet I thought)
<ddstreet> yep i can take this, unless anyone else wants to grab it
<ddstreet> #action ddstreet follow up on packageset owning team for ubuntu-mate (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet follow up on packageset owning team for ubuntu-mate (carried over)
<teward> (FWIW: lots of IT Security issues in my main job so that has hampered my efforts on things)
<ddstreet> rafaeldtinoco i'm going to defer your items until the end of the list if that's ok with you, try to keep actions grouped by owner
<rafaeldtinoco> es
<rafaeldtinoco> its a good practice
<ddstreet> teward to handle PPU rights of tux{math,paint,type},x11vnc for alkisg ahead of edubuntu packageset removal in the future
<ddstreet> teward i looked at this a bit, i don't think it's done yet right?
<sil2100> If someone has any action items that they'd like to pass to someone else, feel free to assign me then
<teward> no it's not, I think we need to JFDI.
<ddstreet> my main q was if we are dropping edubuntu just for groovy and later, or for focal and earlier too?
<teward> ddstreet: i think that was a separate discussion
<teward> because that task was specifically getting the PPU rights applied
<teward> we have yet to have a full discussion over the edubuntu packageset removal
<ddstreet> ok so just to be safe we should ask for PPU rights for all releases for him then
<teward> correct.
<ddstreet> ack, i can do this, i was already looking at it earlier today
<ddstreet> #action ddstreet to handle PPU rights of tux{math,paint,type},x11vnc for alkisg ahead of edubuntu packageset removal in the future
<meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet to handle PPU rights of tux{math,paint,type},x11vnc for alkisg ahead of edubuntu packageset removal in the future
<ddstreet> teward to apply permissions changes for oSoMoN to mozilla packageset and send out announcement (rolled over)
<ddstreet> teward this is done, just needs the announcement sent out; i can do that
<teward> yep
<ddstreet> #action ddstreet send out announcement for oSoMoN addition to mozilla packageset (rolled over)
<meetingology> ACTION: ddstreet send out announcement for oSoMoN addition to mozilla packageset (rolled over)
<ddstreet> teward to handle Erich Eickmeyer permissions changes for access to Ubuntu Studio packageset and send out announcement (half-done, rolled over)
<ddstreet> this is done
<ddstreet> sil2100 to add kanashiro coredev permissions and send announcement
<ddstreet> i think you did that right sil2100?
<sil2100> Yes, this is done
<ddstreet> ok we're on to rafaeldtinoco items :)
<ddstreet> rafaeldtinoco to follow up with TB / packageset tooling on ubuntu-studio-uploaders being added to ubuntustudio packageset for upload rights (carried over)
<tsimonq2> I did process some minor packageset additions for Erich over the past few weeks.
<tsimonq2> calamares-settings-ubuntu comes to mind. ;)
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: Ill have PTO on wednesday and will work all my items during my PTO basically.
<rafaeldtinoco> so the gnome-shell item was discussed broadly
<rafaeldtinoco> in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-May/001501.html
<rafaeldtinoco> and Im considering to be together with "refresh packagesets"
<rafaeldtinoco> and, like tsimonq2 said, we are doing all packageset changes additions/removals by hand here and ther
<rafaeldtinoco> but we still need the full refresh
<ddstreet> so should we carry over all items for you then?
<rafaeldtinoco> nope
<ddstreet> or are some already done, by hand
<rafaeldtinoco> there were 2 you did
<ddstreet> i did? ;-)
<rafaeldtinoco> yaru-theme
<rafaeldtinoco> and fprintf
<rafaeldtinoco> for ubuntu-desktop
<rafaeldtinoco> didnt u ?
<rafaeldtinoco> i mean, like gnome-shell, they are connected as well
<rafaeldtinoco> from Laney "I know this isn't finalised yet. It works for the yaru-theme case, but
<rafaeldtinoco> there are also some others which are IMO still incorrect, like mozjs68."
<ddstreet> i dont think i did, but let me put the action on me to check that, maybe i did
<rafaeldtinoco> nope you replied to the thread
<rafaeldtinoco> and there is some work from Iain
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: carry all my items over please
<ddstreet> right i replied basically saying i don't understand what the desktop packageset split is intended to do
<rafaeldtinoco> i think they will all be sorted
<ddstreet> ok
<rafaeldtinoco> with me catching up with what Iain did
<rafaeldtinoco> and updating all packagesets
<rafaeldtinoco> this will be done by next meeting
<ddstreet> #action rafaeldtinoco to follow up with TB / packageset tooling on ubuntu-studio-uploaders being added to ubuntustudio packageset for upload rights (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to follow up with TB / packageset tooling on ubuntu-studio-uploaders being added to ubuntustudio packageset for upload rights (carried over)
<ddstreet> #action rafaeldtinoco to handle request "Adding lubuntu-update-notifier to the Lubuntu package set" (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to handle request "Adding lubuntu-update-notifier to the Lubuntu package set" (carried over)
<ddstreet> #action rafaeldtinoco to complete documentation on existing packageset tooling, and discuss the current (large) delta in the packagesets that need adjusted (rolled over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to complete documentation on existing packageset tooling, and discuss the current (large) delta in the packagesets that need adjusted (rolled over)
<ddstreet> #action rafaeldtinoco to handle getting gnome-shell into ubuntu desktop exceptions list
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to handle getting gnome-shell into ubuntu desktop exceptions list
<ddstreet> #action rafaeldtinoco to handle "Refresh the packagesets" mailing list item (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-April/001486.html)
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to handle "Refresh the packagesets" mailing list item (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-April/001486.html)
<ddstreet> #action rafaeldtinoco to look into mailing list item "Including yaru-theme in the ubuntu-desktop set" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-April/001487.html)
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to look into mailing list item "Including yaru-theme in the ubuntu-desktop set" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-April/001487.html)
<ddstreet> #action rafaeldtinoco to look into mailing list item "Include fprint packages in the ubuntu-desktop set" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-April/001488.html)
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to look into mailing list item "Include fprint packages in the ubuntu-desktop set" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-April/001488.html)
<ddstreet> ok and rafaeldtinoco if i can help with anything do let me know
<sil2100> Same
<rafaeldtinoco> tks
<rafaeldtinoco> i think Ill got it all cleared up
<rafaeldtinoco> PTO is for that, isnt it ?
<ddstreet> lol only if you're doing it at the beach :)
<rafaeldtinoco> sgtm
<ddstreet> ok that's all the previous action items, no applications on the agenda for today
<ddstreet> 2 mailing list items i think
<ddstreet> Packages to Remove from ubuntustudio packageset (Erich Eickmeyer) https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-May/001497.html
<rafaeldtinoco> they are related
<rafaeldtinoco> to all my actions
<ddstreet> yep unfortunately i think you're getting this one too :)
<rafaeldtinoco> cleaning up for ubuntustudio
<ddstreet> but it should come 'for free' with the tooling updates
<rafaeldtinoco> and packageset exceptions <- this feature is *needed* to make sure we can cover it all
<ddstreet> #action rafaeldtinoco to handle "Packages to Remove from ubuntustudio packageset" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-May/001497.html)
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to handle "Packages to Remove from ubuntustudio packageset" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-May/001497.html)
<rafaeldtinoco> #)
<ddstreet> rafaeldtinoco unfortunately i think the next one is yours too, iain's email
<ddstreet> Applying packageset exceptions transitively (Iain Lane)
<rafaeldtinoco> yep
<rafaeldtinoco> its the exception to solve the gnome-shell case
<Laney> The core split is basically the expansion of the desktop-common platform seed
<Laney> sorry, I got highlighted :-)
<rafaeldtinoco> that was the idea =)
<rafaeldtinoco> and thanks for the packegeset scripts updates
<ddstreet> #action rafaeldtinoco to handle "Applying packageset exceptions transitively" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-May/001501.html)
<meetingology> ACTION: rafaeldtinoco to handle "Applying packageset exceptions transitively" (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2020-May/001501.html)
<rafaeldtinoco> ill get into it this week
<Laney> right, ok
<ddstreet> ah oops, i forgot to change topic
<ddstreet> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: AOB
<Laney> I think it's risky updating thoes sets manually, because then the next time you go to run the script things will drop out 'mysteriously'
<rafaeldtinoco> Laney: ill mark all requests in the last months
<rafaeldtinoco> and verify one by one
<Laney> it should at least be paired with adding exceptions
<rafaeldtinoco> Laney: yep
<Laney> well, actually, you'd expect that normally just re-running the script would get new seeded stuff
<Laney> ok, i'll stop talking now
<Laney> :p
<rafaeldtinoco> Laney: can I ping you
<rafaeldtinoco> after I sort out your changes ?
<rafaeldtinoco> #)
<ddstreet> ok any other business to discuss?
<ddstreet> or did i miss anything?
<ddstreet> i think we're done then, in 5...
<ddstreet> 4
<rafaeldtinoco> i think youve missed
<rafaeldtinoco> a few topic changes
<rafaeldtinoco> #)
<ddstreet> lol yes i did :)
<rafaeldtinoco> like select chair for next meeting
<ddstreet> ah ok
<ddstreet> #topic Chair and Time for Next Meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | DMB meeting | Current topic: Chair and Time for Next Meeting
<rafaeldtinoco> ill be the next chair, then robie
<ddstreet> next mtg is Monday 2020-06-15 19:00 UTC
<rafaeldtinoco> perhaps dan can go to the end of the line
<sil2100> I think I also haven't chaired for a while
<ddstreet> sounds good, i'll move myself down
<sil2100> Probably missed those meetings on which I was to chair
<ddstreet> ok anythign else i missed?
<sil2100> So if anyone feels like they'd like a break, feel free to select me as the chair
<rafaeldtinoco> thats ok
<rafaeldtinoco> next meeting I have so many items
<rafaeldtinoco> being the chair will make things quicker
<rafaeldtinoco> #)
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: thanks for being the chair today
<rafaeldtinoco> nothing else
<sil2100> ;)
<sil2100> Nothing here
<ddstreet> np, ok ending in 3...
<ddstreet> 2
<ddstreet> 1
<ddstreet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jun  1 15:36:10 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-06-01-15.08.moin.txt
<sil2100> o/
<ddstreet> thanks all o/
<rafaeldtinoco> o/ cheers!
<rafaeldtinoco> ddstreet: are i updating agenda ?
<rafaeldtinoco> are i / are u
<ddstreet> rafaeldtinoco i got it, i figure the chair should update it
<rafaeldtinoco> yep, i think so
<rafaeldtinoco> ok then. tks
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-06-02
<cpaelzer> hiho
<didrocks> hey
<cpaelzer> I was too early joinign the wrong call :-)
<didrocks> heh, you made me wondering if this was now or in 25 min :)
<cpaelzer> jamespage: didrocks: sarnold: doko: ddstreet: let's get this started
<cpaelzer> didrocks: at the right time
<ddstreet> o/
<didrocks> hey ;)
<cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jun  2 14:31:14 2020 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic:
<cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
<meetingology> cpaelzer: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
<cpaelzer> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<cpaelzer> I wanted to look at the false-positives in component mismatches
<cpaelzer> but someone beat me to it
<sarnold> hmm, the old meeting is still going..
<cpaelzer> so it is done without me doing anything
<sarnold> ooh never min dme
<cpaelzer> :-)
<cpaelzer> you fell into my copy&paste error trap sarnold :-)
<cpaelzer> no other actions left
<sarnold> indeed :)
<cpaelzer> #topic current component mismatches
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: current component mismatches
<cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
<cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg
<didrocks> nice graph on supported-desktop-extra :)
<cpaelzer> IIRC didrocks said appstream is on him, was that correct?
<sarnold> node-jdquery self-cycle? that's curious..
<didrocks> weird that appstream is still there, I demoted -doc, Iâll check again
<didrocks> cpaelzer: yeah, I thought that was handled but it seems it needs a little bit more, will do it
<cpaelzer> sarnold: I'd leave that to itslef for now (node-jd)
<cpaelzer> thanks didrocks for looking again after it
<cpaelzer> the rest is mostly known and not worth a look
<cpaelzer> the one thing I fail to remember is, have we talked about "kazoo"
<cpaelzer> oh yeah that was openstack related and on jamespage
<cpaelzer> ok nothing left here to assign
<doko> I'm handling the new lintian deps
<cpaelzer> let us move on
<cpaelzer> thanks doko!
<cpaelzer> #topic New MIRs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: New MIRs
<cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> two in here
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-secretstorage/+bug/1861268 which is already in progress
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1861268 in jeepney (Ubuntu) "[MIR] jeepney" [Medium,New]
<cpaelzer> just affetcs more packages now
<cpaelzer> really new is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openscap/+bug/1877696
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1877696 in openscap (Ubuntu) "[MIR] openscap" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> I can do a MIR review on it tomorrow if that is ok
<cpaelzer> We can skip incomplete bugs, there was no change in that list
<cpaelzer> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Any other business?
<cpaelzer> as usual in this part of the cycle it was ncie and fast
<cpaelzer> anything else worth to bring up
<cpaelzer> maybe sarnold want to talk about the special bit in openscap?
<cpaelzer> which is promoting it in old releases as well
<cpaelzer> doko: ^^ in case this happened prior, let us know how it was handled
<sarnold> cpaelzer: it is indeed a bit special, and perhaps still under discussion, we're using this for compliance against benchmarks and cvescan; the cvescan use is being replaced with something NIH, but the compliance use we're going to keep..
<sarnold> and I'm not entirely sure if we'd rather keep using as-packaged version for our older releases or if we'd like to snap the thing, or live with status quo for old releases where it's used but not in main
<doko> please make sure that it at least builds ...
<cpaelzer> I'm not opposed to it, I'll check the dependencies throughout all releases on the review
<sarnold> good idea, it's not fun to find out FTBFS when doing a security update
<cpaelzer> from there we will see sarnold is that ok for you ?
<sarnold> yes
<cpaelzer> ok then
<doko> we cannot promote it in the release pocket, only in updates, so it requires a new upload
<cpaelzer> that was the "other topics" topic
<cpaelzer> anything else?
<cpaelzer> let's count out with reverse fibonacci then for today
<cpaelzer> 8
<cpaelzer> 5
<cpaelzer> 3
<cpaelzer> 2
<cpaelzer> 1
<cpaelzer> 1
<cpaelzer> 0
<cpaelzer> nothing, cu next week
<sarnold> :)
<sarnold> thanks
<cpaelzer> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jun  2 14:41:02 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-06-02-14.31.moin.txt
<didrocks> thx!
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-06-04
<luna_> Are there any IRC Meeting today? for translators?
<luna_> seems to be in it now
<sil2100> o/
<juliank> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jun  4 15:01:29 2020 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity mwhudson juliank waveform slyon)
<mclemenceau> o/
<bdmurray> bdmurray vorlon sil2100 tdaitx mwhudson rbalint waveform slyon xnox doko juliank infinity
<slyon> o/
<bdmurray> +1 maintenance
<bdmurray> updated update-notifier to depend on pyflakes3 not pyflakes
<bdmurray> reviewed and merge changes to update-manager fixing LP: #1880987
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1880987 in update-manager (Ubuntu Focal) "[SRU] /usr/bin/update-manager:TypeError:_on_finished:_action_done:get_deb2snap_dups:_on_finished:_action_done:get_deb2snap_dups" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1880987
<bdmurray> tested and wrote a 20.04 LTS test case for LP: #1774843
<bdmurray> uploaded F SRU for the above
<bdmurray> really fixed apport bug LP: #1427600, uploaded F SRU for it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1774843 in apport (Ubuntu Focal) "apport python exception for python versions which python-apt is not built on" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1774843
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1427600 in apport (Ubuntu Focal) "apport-unpack: ValueError: ['UserGroups'] has no binary content" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1427600
<bdmurray> uploaded update-manager SRUs for B,E,F for LP: #1826213
<bdmurray> reviewed FF release noted bugs, targetted some to 20.04.1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1826213 in update-manager (Ubuntu Focal) "/usr/bin/update-manager:AttributeError:/usr/bin/update-manager@118:start_update:start_available:refresh_cache:update" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1826213
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> vorlon is off
<bdmurray> sil2100:
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases, though not as many as usual
<sil2100> - +1 maintenance on Monday and Tuesday
<sil2100> - DMB meeting
<sil2100> - HWE team sync-up
<sil2100> - UC20 beta preparation
<sil2100>   * Iteration on image status
<sil2100>   * Discussions regarding what to do once beta is released, some propositions stated
<sil2100> - netplan:
<sil2100>   * Reviewing the bonds PR, now merged
<sil2100>   * Merging bonds to the OVS bridges in-progress code
<sil2100>   * Looking into ways of generating some basic networkd config to OVS interfaces
<sil2100>   * Finishing basic OVS bridges support, submitting PR
<sil2100> - Preparing very simple scripting for generating simplestreams for released images
<sil2100> - Further iteration on the ActivationMode systemd-networkd PR
<sil2100> - Preparing some new model assertions for images
<sil2100> - Image stuff, lots
<sil2100> (done)
<tdaitx> * Mixed services dependency + setup for jck snap (some installed on host, some as stage packages)
<tdaitx> * Rebuild scilab + dependencies to fix LP: #1877234 and LP:  #1870813
<tdaitx> * Other: setup openjdk account
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1877234 in scilab (Ubuntu) "Scilab 6.0.2 crashes on startup" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1877234
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1870813 in scilab (Ubuntu) "Scilab does not start on focal" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1870813
<bdmurray> rbalint is out
<bdmurray> waveform:
<waveform> * Cleared all (important) lintian warnings for raspberrypi-userland package for camera support; one last fix required for dtoverlay overlay/param-help option
<waveform> * Investigated pi bootloader partition redirection (unsuccessfully), but...
<waveform> * Documented everything (I know?) about the Pi's bootloader for kernel team's help
<waveform> * Setting up a test NOOBS image for kernel team to play with
<waveform> (done)
<bdmurray> slyon:
<slyon> - Had a short week
<slyon> - Prepared MP for apport, to improve handling of snap bug reports
<slyon>   * Needs review, bug #1861082
<slyon> - Tried to setup arm64 autopkgtest, I probably need some help there
<slyon>   * Will get back to you about that later
<slyon> == Netplan ==
<ubottu> bug 1861082 in snapd "ubuntu-bug doesn't know how to file bugs against snaps" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1861082
<slyon> - Finalized OpenVSwitch Bonds PR#142, Merged
<slyon> - Closed bug #1872966 SMB1 problem, Invalid
<slyon> - Debugged memory corruption with NetworkManager netplan plugin
<slyon>   * sent new nm-snap patch to field engineering team for testing
<ubottu> bug 1872966 in netplan "unable to connect to NAS, other devices fine" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872966
<slyon> - Reviewing OpenVSwitch Bridges PR#144
<slyon> (done)
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> fixed-up interactive netmount bug reports & polish as reported by frank, he is happy, time to sru this
<xnox> Worked on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/glibc/+bug/1880853
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1880853 in cloud-images "libc6-lse lets update-initramfs fail on AWS m6g instances" [Undecided,New]
<xnox> Worked on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lvm2/+bug/1871154
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1871154 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu Focal) "Error message displayed during boot (mountroot hook, premount)" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<xnox> Worked on riscv64 golang/snapd/lxd bootstrap with snapd team, wgrant, jsing, stgraber - the last one has a build of working lxd now, so we might get livefs capable builders in launchpad next, unlocking building binary livefs & snaps
<xnox> Continuing work on unwinding d-i from all the things, with focus on ubiquity de-vendorasation
<xnox> Kicked off SRUs for a few things for .1 release
<xnox> Stepped in doing +1 maintenance today & tomorrow, will report on that separately
<xnox> done
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko> - three days off
<doko> - two days +1 maintenance
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> * short week, long weekend (off Fri & Mon)
<juliank> * update-excuses:
<juliank>   - apt-clone needed s/pyflakes/pyflakes3/ and s/python-apt//
<juliank>   - retried still failing tests (apt, sugar) against new update-notifier
<juliank>   - analysed autopkgtest, noting new fixed version could be synced, but then realized it already was :/
<juliank>   - [make] retried flatpak-builder on s390x for make-dfsg => did not help
<juliank>   - retried apt-clone failures w/ new apt-clone :)
<juliank>   - [make] fixed cross-toolchain-base (43ubuntu4) to correctly build its "space" variable with new make;
<juliank>            same for -mipsen and -ports per doko
<juliank>   - [make] fixed dpkg man/Makefile.am to not add requisites on suffix targets
<juliank> * followed up on some maas grub bugs, asking for smaller maas-less reproducers
<juliank> * released apt 2.1.6
<juliank> * followed up on a previous upstream aptitude merge request, making sure it was fully merged
<juliank> (done)
<bdmurray> any questions about lightning?
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-gg-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-gg-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> dbus timeout is still with desktop
<bdmurray> the vim one had a stale tag, its already been carded
<bdmurray> bug 1870189
<ubottu> bug 1870189 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "initramfs does not get loaded" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1870189
<xnox> punt it to the cpc-help team?
<bdmurray> sounds good
<bdmurray> bug 1880260
<ubottu> bug 1880260 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "please build monolithic eltorito image" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1880260
<bdmurray> bug 1876286
<ubottu> bug 1876286 in gnutls28 (Ubuntu) "Evolution reports "Error performing TLS handshake: Internal error in memory allocation."" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1876286
<juliank> oh nice
<bdmurray> let's card, target and SRU that
<bdmurray> bug 1881632
<ubottu> bug 1881632 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "esm security updates not reported by apt update-notifier" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1881632
<juliank> not for us, i assume
<bdmurray> Let's just do a review of it
<bdmurray> juliank: Can you review it?
<juliank> yeah
<bdmurray> thanks
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> let's sort by date created
<bdmurray> so bug 1880193
<ubottu> bug 1880193 in autofs (Ubuntu) "autofs: Assertion 'set_remove(iterator->links, link) == link' failed at src/shared/userdb.c:314, function userdb_on_query_reply(). Aborting." [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1880193
<bdmurray> lets pass on that for now
<bdmurray> bug 1879708
<ubottu> Error: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1879708 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1879708). The error has been logged
<bdmurray> bug 1879708
<bdmurray> lets card the 3 bugs that are assigned to Canonical Foundations
<bdmurray> bug 1879592
<ubottu> bug 1879592 in netplan.io (Ubuntu) "Netplan does not apply at boot after upgrade to 20.04" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1879592
<slyon> seems to be a duplicate #1860926
<bdmurray> let's remove the tag
<bdmurray> bug 1875918
<ubottu> bug 1875918 in openjdk-lts (Ubuntu) "openjdk crash: jdk11+eclipse+jformdesigner" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1875918
<bdmurray> i have a note that tdaitx was looking at this
<bdmurray> bug 1875918
<ubottu> bug 1875918 in openjdk-lts (Ubuntu) "openjdk crash: jdk11+eclipse+jformdesigner" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1875918
<bdmurray> sorry typo
<bdmurray> bug 1875760
<ubottu> bug 1875760 in command-not-found (Ubuntu) "/usr/lib/cnf-update-db:sqlite3.OperationalError:/usr/lib/cnf-update-db@26:create" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1875760
<juliank> sounds reasonable
<bdmurray> sounds reasonable to fix?
<juliank> I'm tryint to open error tracker to get more info
<bdmurray> sqlite3.OperationalError: database is locked
<juliank> ah
<juliank> hmm, this might be complicated, but needs to be investigated
<bdmurray> lets target, card and backlog it
<mclemenceau> Ok
<bdmurray> at a minimum we shouldn't be generating a crash report here
<bdmurray> bug 1875523
<ubottu> bug 1875523 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "I can't upgrade the ubuntu to 20.04 by terminal. Everytime I do it, a message appear saying that it is not possible do the upgrade." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1875523
<bdmurray> juliank I think we talked about this before and something about the ordering of python during the upgrade
<juliank> maybe
<juliank> chrome translated the whole bug report to german
<bdmurray> it was some time ago
<bdmurray> let's target, card it and also set a milestone for the point release
<bdmurray> since its upgrades from B
<bdmurray> bug 1874953
<ubottu> bug 1874953 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "dpkg: conffile difference visualizer subprocess returned error exit status 127" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1874953
 * juliank will try a mark_delete("python-minimal"); mark_install("python2-minimal") and see if that helps the upgrade issue
<bdmurray> lets target and card that too
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
 * juliank is still working on the make-dfsg block
<bdmurray> balint took python-tz but is out
<bdmurray> I'll go ahead and take that
<juliank> probably just needs a retry, maybe one is already queued
<bdmurray> Is there a way to query the queue?
<bdmurray> steve said golang-defaults was probably a false positive
<juliank> curl /running and  grep?
<bdmurray> is running things that are waiting to run though?
<juliank> yeah
<juliank> it lists all running stuff + queues
<bdmurray> util-linux is still on me
<bdmurray> python-secretstorage vs python3-jeepney, that's an MIR that was deferred last cycle
<bdmurray> from steve last week
<bdmurray> vim was with tdaitx
<bdmurray> git vorlon was chaning
<bdmurray> chasing
<xnox> cross-toolchain-base dpkg make-dfsg => all juliank?
<xnox> flatpak-builder on me
<xnox> fonts-dejavu was mine
<bdmurray> bzip2 is new
<bdmurray> xnox will take all of that
<xnox> bzip2 => and blocking friends on xnox
<bdmurray> okay
<bdmurray> #AOB
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<slyon> I will be out next week Thu & Fri, due to my wedding.
<bdmurray> thanks everybody
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jun  4 15:57:38 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-06-04-15.01.moin.txt
<chiluk> UMB Meeting today?
