#ubuntu-tv 2011-11-28
 * MrChrisDruif is off to bed
<MrChrisDruif> TTYL
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/Will%20Moorhead/ yay, someone used the template
<MrChrisDruif> Good morning everyone
<MrChrisDruif> I'll try to contact Ben or Joey from OMG to update the post about Ubuntu TV, seeing everyone thinks we want to create something new. It's very tiresome to tell every single commenter that we probably be using something existing...
<AlanBell> don't worry about it
<AlanBell> the commenters don't read the article anyway
<AlanBell> they just read the headline, look at the picture and vent their anger in the comments
<AlanBell> "This is purely business from canonicals side. They want to sell movies and music from ubuntu one. That is ok, but don't use the community for such commercial projects. "
<AlanBell> do you feel used?
 * AlanBell suspects the person who left that comment wasn't going to contribute anything of value anyway
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; that latest link doesn't work
<AlanBell> what link?
<MrChrisDruif> For Will Moorhead's storyboard
<AlanBell> where is the link that doesn't work?
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh wait, it's just me =)
<MrChrisDruif> I clicked the link in the mail
<MrChrisDruif> Try added _ or %20 in links so they are continuous
<AlanBell> what mail?
<AlanBell> oooh, you subscribed to the wiki page
<AlanBell> right, the link on the wiki page is fine, but your mail client linkifying it might get confused
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, it did. I changed them by adding a space before the | otherwise the |sometext also gets added to the link, braking it again =)
<MrChrisDruif> Could we have some kind of comment area on the storyboard pages? Then I could write down my thoughts about design decisions on the relevant page =)
<AlanBell> possibly
<MrChrisDruif> Would be awesome =)
<MrChrisDruif> Or at least very handy
<nandersson> Hi, Is this Ubuntu Tv a Canonical sponsored/driven project or is it mainly driven  of non-Canonical developers?
<AlanBell> nandersson: bit of a mix
<AlanBell> why?
<nandersson> Im going to write a thing about it on swedish TechWorld, nothing big, just a small article
<AlanBell> cool
<nandersson> Does the idea originate from Canonical?
<MrChrisDruif> Yup
<AlanBell> nandersson: from Mark Shuttleworth at UDS
<MrChrisDruif> Mark himself told about it in his keynote speech, last UDS
<nandersson> Ok, that is cool. Then it is anchored with Canonical. I read his recent blog post about it.
<nandersson> "his" as in Mark Shuttleworth
<nandersson> I saw that Mark referred to your designs AlanBell
<AlanBell> yeah, which was funny
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, AlanBell is our main designer ;-) JK
<MrChrisDruif> No, but seriously, he just put up a few design template were the rest of us can play with =)
<nandersson> yeah, I understand that
<AlanBell> nandersson: what I was actually doing was developing a framework for doing storyboarding, so making a template on which people could draw designs
<nandersson> btw. Are you going to write this stuff with Qt? Unity is based on gtk+ today right?
<nandersson> I read the thing about QML
<AlanBell> I flung a few simple sketches on it to explain how to use the storyboarding framework, I didn't expect anyone to pay any attention to them as designs :)
<nandersson> AlanBell, well you have to start somewhere :)
<AlanBell> Unity is based on Compiz and the Nux framework which is GTKish and there is also the unity2d implementation which is based on Qt
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
<AlanBell> I am not quite sure how Qt and QML relate
<MrChrisDruif> But we are only in the conceptual fase at the moment
<MrChrisDruif> Thinking about HOW it should LOOK/FEEL, not going into the technical bit of it
<nandersson> Ah, so Unity2d is based on Qt. I didn't knew that. That is cool.
<MrChrisDruif> We haven't decided what software we could build our solution on
<AlanBell> it could be implemented as a Qt thing, or as an xbmc theme, or as an HTML5 page or something completely different
<nandersson> QML is a Javascript markup language for writing GUI quick and easy.
<nandersson> ...with bindings to Qt as I've understood it.
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, great I guess =)
 * AlanBell has a thought on how to add comments to the designs
<MrChrisDruif> Yes?
<AlanBell> link in a pad.ubuntu.com page for each one in an iframe
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh, great =)
<nandersson> Are there any plans to cooperate with existing channels? Like these guys do for example. http://www.livestation.com/
<AlanBell> no plans
<AlanBell> which doesn't mean there are plans not to do so, it means there are no plans
<AlanBell> that we know about
<nandersson> so the TV in Ubuntu TV is more like a media center than a set top box for Television?
<AlanBell> I think set top box, or OEM integrated into a TV are possible scenarios
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed, but we shouldn't rule out media center pc's as well
<AlanBell> what is the difference between a media centre and a set top box?
<MrChrisDruif> Well, a set top box uses hardware mostly not found in standard computer, where a media center is a dedicated computer but with standard computer hardware
<nandersson> well, a set top box you can connect to your cable tv network.
<nandersson> there are Linux-projects targeting that as well. V4L (Video 4 Linux) is (was?) one.
<nandersson> You have (had?) devices you could connect to USB to get your computer to work as a tv, with all your channels. Hauppage was one hw-supplier.
<AlanBell> V4L is a fairly low level spec for video devices
<AlanBell> I don't think there will be much difference between a media centre and what is in a TV by 14.04
<MrChrisDruif> Let's hope so =)
<MrChrisDruif> But I think TV's will sooner go with ARM then with x86/x86_64 processors
 * MrChrisDruif is listening to Karl Jenkins - Hymn Before Action [The Armed Man - A Mass For Peace] (1:30/2:39)
<MrChrisDruif> I think they are already using ARM
<AlanBell> sure, and I think that will be the chip that you would put in a media centre too
<nandersson> Is there a link to the project? Do you host it on Launchpad?
<nandersson> sorry
<nandersson> I see it in the IRC-channel :)
<MrChrisDruif> In the topic, yes =)
<willcooke> Hi guys, AlanBell you're famous! XD
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, he was already =)
 * popey tickles ogra_ 
<ogra_> geez, without sabdfls blogpost i wouldnt have known about this channel
<ogra_> we need to make more noise about this !
<AlanBell> he has his uses :)
<ogra_> (and hi popey :) )
<ogra_> at times, yep :)
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
 * MrChrisDruif will be back in a bit *groceries*
<willcooke> hey ogra_
<ogra_> hey willcooke :)
<willcooke> Good to see more people finding their way here.  ogra_ you're right though, we should make a bit more noise about this - and I'm hatching a plan right now.
<willcooke> Just waiting for DNS to update ;)
<ogra_> :)
<seif> hey guys
<ogra_> good plan
<willcooke> hi seif
<seif> did u have a look at http://media-explorer.org/
<AlanBell> willcooke: see there are two storyboards now https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs
<willcooke> AlanBell, oh wow!
<willcooke> Awesome!
<AlanBell> the second one was from someone via the OMGUbuntu article
<AlanBell> he emailed me the .ep file last night and I put it up
 * willcooke check omg
<willcooke> checks
<MrChrisDruif> willcooke; http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/ubuntu-smart-tv-discussions-begin-to-warm-up/
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha ogra_ , so you found us through Mark?
<MrChrisDruif> willcooke; what is your plan?
<willcooke> otp - brb
<ogra_> MrChrisDruif, yeah :)
<ogra_> and finding the ML wasnt trvial either ... someone should post some additional stuff on the canonical blog or so
<MrChrisDruif> We've got a canonical blog? =P
<MrChrisDruif> I practically only use omgubuntu as a source of information
<MrChrisDruif> They do the scouring(?) for me =)
<popey> http://design.canonical.com/2011/11/ubuntu-phone-tablet-and-tv-discussion-opened/
<popey> thats where it was originally announced.
<AlanBell> plus the keynote at UDS
<Hydrar> Does anyone know what hardware is in current TV's with build-in DVR's though?(I came here from phoronix via Mark's blog)
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<ogra_> Hydrar, usually MIPS based platforms, but i heard that sony also did some arm based ones
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha Hydrar
<Hydrar> Hey MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> How's it going?
<Hydrar> And ogra_: Intersting
<Hydrar> Just came in here to check on if anyone actually *tried* modding in some ubuntu in TV's yet, or if it was just a development for shipping with new ones
<ogra_> http://www.fxitech.com/products/ might be very intresting as a developer platform
<ogra_> but its still in pre-production
<ogra_> (they support ubuntu they claim)
<MrChrisDruif> I think those manufacturers start to realize that using normal computer/tablet hardware in tv might not be stupid
<MrChrisDruif> Seeing that developers don't want to learn something new again, and again...
<ogra_> well, you dont want a fan in your tv
<ogra_> which rules out most intels
 * AlanBell runs atoms fanless
<Hydrar> ARM is the way to go for TV's really
<MrChrisDruif> ogra_; arm doesn't require fans to run afaik
<AlanBell> but yeah, ARM is more likely
<ogra_> MrChrisDruif, yep
<MrChrisDruif> Not on my smartphone at least =P
<ogra_> hehe
<dmj726> not to discourage ARM, since I think it's a good choice, but TVs do produce considerable heat.
<Hydrar> Only downside I see with ARM is the lack of proper open source drivers for driving display
<dmj726> so simple power requirements aren't 100% indicative of non-usability of Intel hardware
<ogra_> well, an intel would add more heat
<Hydrar> What ogra said
<dmj726> That said, ARM would definitely have huge advantage in standby mode
<Hydrar> Power usage is one of the selling points of TV's these days it seems
<ogra_> that and it also has a very good linux standing
<ogra_> if you look at MIPS, you have some embedded distros, debian and no ubuntu support at all yet ... bringing up a full arch port isnt trivial and costly
<ogra_> so for ubuntu there is only PPC, ARM and x86
<dmj726> ARM will also be improving significantly performancewise per core per clock over the next couple years.
<ogra_> it already copes fine with atom
 * ogra_ is currently typing this on an arm netbook
<dmj726> The only cause for concern with ARM *at the present moment* would be for encoding HD content as it's broadcast, which I'm not sure either it or atom can do yet.
<Hydrar> Why encode HD content?
<dmj726> PVR capability
<ogra_> ??
<ogra_> you just compress and store it
<Hydrar> Oh yeah, I mixed it up with old DTV
<ogra_> or do you expect us to broadcast from the PVR
<dmj726> Lots of people like to time shift their TV watching
<Hydrar> HDMI input would be raw, so the ARM would need to recompress it again
<dmj726> ogra_: encoding is the compression process, no?
<ogra_> oh, i forgot about timeshift
<Hydrar> "Traditional" DTV that's builtin to TV's actually gets fed with a precompressed mpeg2 stream, which it can just dump to disk
<Hydrar> At least, the one I have does
<dmj726> Hydrar: That might be okay for broadcast
<AlanBell> much more sensible to store the stream
<dmj726> would be awesome if one could record HDMI input though
<dmj726> would be great for doing with my DSLR
<Hydrar> Yeah
<Hydrar> Still, ARM is a pretty powerful platform as far as I know, doesn't it do more per clock than x86_64 in general anyway?
<ogra_> yep
<MrChrisDruif> Don't forget, the expected time of distribution for this will be around 14.04...TWO years time ;-)
<ogra_> yep, and i know the arm roadmap :)
<MrChrisDruif> I haven't memorized it ;-)
<dmj726> The ARM roadmap is pretty agressive
<ogra_> yep
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, by 14.04
<tgm4883> which probably means 18-24 months from now
<dmj726> Of course for actual devices on the market shave a year off that for processor availability.
<MrChrisDruif> 24 is how many years?
<dmj726> 24 months is 2 years
<tgm4883> sorry I wasn't actually disagreeing with you
<MrChrisDruif> Haha =D
<tgm4883> It was more of a clarification/added data
<MrChrisDruif> For later reading: http://princessleia.com/images/journalpics/012011/samsung_tv_osl.jpg
 * MrChrisDruif is back
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; did you get back to the latest mail on the ubuntu-tv mailing-list?
<AlanBell> have now
<MrChrisDruif> Great =)
<MrChrisDruif> Check
<tgm4883> I am not a fan of the latest idea email
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; you too? =)
<MrChrisDruif> Making things hard when they should be simple?
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, exactly
<tgm4883> overengineering things
<MrChrisDruif> =D
<tgm4883> actually, i'm not even sure that is considered overengineering something. That is just not in the scope
<MrChrisDruif> Well....yes and no. I haven't read it precisely (haha, funny seeing coming release) but it has to do with TV and controlling etc...
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, 2) twice ^_^
<AlanBell> I don't think we should be making decisions yet, just capturing ideas
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, but still we can "discuss" these ideas ;-)
<AlanBell> yes, certainly
<Guus-> AlanBell: i have this cool idea for ubuntu-tv, take nokia n9 meego UI and make the middle screen regular television, one remote button pops up the applications
<AlanBell> awesome, sketch it up for us!
 * AlanBell has no idea what a nokia n9 meego UI looks like
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs
<AlanBell> and how to get pencil all set up for sketching your plans https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs/Pencil
<AlanBell> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/28/ubuntu_tv/ !!!!
<MrChrisDruif> Nice =)
<MrChrisDruif> And again our grant-designer AlanBell in full coverage =P
<MrChrisDruif> A lot of positive feedback news about our little team it seems =)
<AlanBell> scary stuff
<AlanBell> just been leaving a couple of comments on the article
<MrChrisDruif> Seeing we only have been going at it for 2 weeks or something?
<AlanBell> "10 inch" user interface isn't quite right
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, 10 feet
<AlanBell> it is a 3m user interface!!
<AlanBell> silly mericans
<MrChrisDruif> We used the right notation afaik with 10' not 10"
<AlanBell> yeah, that is just almost unknown in the UK
<MrChrisDruif> Even worse in Holland ;-)
<AlanBell> only old people and people who work with Americans know about ' and "
<AlanBell> and I only get them the right way round based on context
<MrChrisDruif> Are you calling me old? =P I'm only 24 =D
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, mailing-list already starts to explode =)
<AlanBell> wow
<imnichol> Hahah
<imnichol> I did my part to spam you all
<imnichol> Although we should all remember to be polite
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, I also do my best to be a catalyst (freenode one)
<imnichol> Wow it's really taking off
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, yes
<MrChrisDruif> I'll have a read again tomorrow afternoon
<MrChrisDruif> I should finish what I'm doing and go to bed
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, off to bed
<imnichol> So, wow, that's a lot of words on the listserv
<dmj726> wrt that Register Article, Linux actually powers dozens of Sony TVs.  The source code for said is published in a corner of their website per GPL requirements.
<dmj726> imnichol: that is a lot
#ubuntu-tv 2011-11-29
<dmj726> I'll have to get on that later with more discussion of networked apps I think
<imnichol> Yeah
<imnichol> I remember a discussion that I think had a collective sort of agreement that just vnc-ing into the tv was a bad idea for bandwidth reasons, but that the option might be useful for other stuff
<dmj726> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone/msg00006.html
<dmj726> that whole thread I think
<dmj726> also some stuff in irc
<imnichol> Yeah the IRC stuff was what I was thinking of
<imnichol> So I don't know about anyone else, but I've kind of been operating on the assumption that Canonical would be very involved in actually bringing UbuntuTV/Tablet/Phones to market.
<imnichol> But from the mailing list, I get the feeling that not everyone agrees
<dmj726> imnichol: I hope they jump in at some point soon
<imnichol> Ok, here's my thing: If we just used Unity, Canonical could create some "official", "supported", "stable" apps to do all the functionality that we've been talking about
<imnichol> And then people could write their own(using quickly or something?) to extend the functionality
<tgm4883> I still don't like Unity for the TV
<tgm4883> maybe a heavily modified Unity, but then whats the point
<imnichol> I think Unity is already a pretty effective interface for a television, so we just need applications that give us the functionality of a tv tuner
<imnichol> tgm4883: I get the feeling that you and I will disagree for eternity about this ;)
<imnichol> After the bomb gets dropped, the only life on earth are the cockroaches, and then you and I sitting at our computers arguing
<tgm4883> imnichol, I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong ;)
<imnichol> Touche
<imnichol> Of course this is my personal opinion, but I think that quickly would be a very effective tool for writing programs for an ubuntu-tv
<tgm4883> so I think the basis of the argument was wasted space right? (asside from Unity being a bit resource intensive)
<imnichol> I think so, but no one has ever exactly explained what space is wasted with unity
<imnichol> (explained to me at least)
<tgm4883> Everything beyond the launcher?
<tgm4883> Everything beyond the lense
<imnichol> What do you mean by beyond?
<imnichol> Because I love Unity since it gives me so much screen realestate when I'm working
<tgm4883> ok, so I hit the super key right now, a lense pops up and uses the top left 25% of my screen
<tgm4883> the other 75% is wasted
<tgm4883> Granted, I've only been using Unity for a few weeks
<imnichol> Oh ok
<imnichol> I suddenly get it
<imnichol> Yeah, I agree to a point
<imnichol> But I think that the ability to continue watching the program that's currently open is a large enough benefit
<tgm4883> I'm not 100% sure why that would happen on a desktop (there has to be a reason right?) but I'm 100% sure that is bad on a TV
<imnichol> I"ll give you an example
<imnichol> I'm using xchat here on my 11.10 laptop
<tgm4883> nobody wants to bring up the unity menu on a tv while watching a show
<tgm4883> ok continue
<imnichol> I want to search for a file, while still watching to see if anyone posts something new
<imnichol> Actually I disagree there with you
<tgm4883> I'll agree for the desktop usage
<tgm4883> show me why I want that on a TV
<tgm4883> also, I get to go home in 2 minutes
<imnichol> Congrats, I got home 2 hours ago thanks to CST
<imnichol> One of the benefits of a fly-over state
<imnichol> I'll be quick then:
<imnichol> You're watching football but you want to do something with the unity menu
<tgm4883> What do I want to do? I mean, I'm watching football, there isn't much else that matters ;)
<imnichol> So you bring up the menu and start doing whatever, and meanwhile your Aaron Rogers brings the Packers to another victory
<imnichol> Thank goodness the menu didn't fill up the entire screen so you got to see the touchdown!
<tgm4883> well, I got to see 75% of it
<tgm4883> although I could just pause it as well
<imnichol> Better than 0%
<tgm4883> or hit rewind
<imnichol> Not all of us subscribe to tvo for whatever reason
<imnichol> Maybe the HDD is full of all the Family Guy that our children recorded
<imnichol> Point being we shouldn't take it for granted
<imnichol> However you could just make the unity menu larger
<tgm4883> imnichol, I should go, but let me leave you with this. If I care about X show that is on, why would I try to do something else when I want to pay attention to the show?
<imnichol> Safe travels
<imnichol> Peace
<tgm4883> So where am I suppose to put this UBuntu.zip pencil files?
<tgm4883> ah there we go
<gdulhr> Hi all
<AlanBell> tgm4883: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/tgm4883/
<AlanBell> tgm4883: when you do the export if you select ubuntu theme in the dropdown you get the sidebar thumbnails
<tgm4883> AlanBell, oddly enough, I thought I had them
<tgm4883> that page seems to show everything twice
<AlanBell> oh maybe something else going on then
<AlanBell> my fault :)
<AlanBell> permissions error on the jquery files
<AlanBell> looks like it didn't export the music picture right, sometimes it does that if you have something selected when you export I think
<AlanBell> fixed and on the wiki
<AlanBell> if you can send me an updated music.png that would be great
<seif> hi AlanBell
<seif> did u look at mex
<AlanBell> no
<seif> AlanBell, its interestng
<seif> AlanBell, https://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/458233:an-early-expedition-with-media-explorer-on-linux
<AlanBell> yeah, I am not too interested in the implementation side of it though
<AlanBell> I just want to help this project use free software UX design tools
<tgm4883> AlanBell, sending music.png now
<AlanBell> updated
<tgm4883> AlanBell, thanks
<AlanBell> really pleased at the use of the template tbh
<MrChrisDruif> Good afternoon, did you all read the email from AndrÃ©?
<tgm4883> Andre?
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, link?
<NCommander> evening all
<NCommander> so I've been looking at packaging xbmc; is there anyone actively working on this?
<NCommander> wb og	
<ogra_> heh
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; was in the mailing-list, I'll look it up
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-tv/msg00076.html
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha NCommander
<MrChrisDruif> Woow, 23 people in here =) A new record, except for the meeting
<ogra_> there are meetings ?
<MrChrisDruif> Well, people. I see two bots
<ogra_> :)
<MrChrisDruif> Well, we had one to prioritize the current feature list we came up with
<ogra_> hmm, that mail clearly came in today, i wonder why i didnt get it
<ogra_> (i'm subscribed since yesterday)
<ogra_> oh, wait ... thats a different list
<ogra_> why do we have two ?
<ogra_> i subscribed (as for all other ubuntu lists) at lists.ubuntu.com
<ogra_> but that mail seems to have gone to some launchpad thing
<ogra_> one of them should be closed
<MrChrisDruif> We have a Ubuntu-tv mailing-list at lists.ubuntu.com? =P
<ogra_> obviously
<ogra_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-tv
<ogra_> thats a tad redundant
<MrChrisDruif> So it seems =) https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-tv
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<MrChrisDruif> Well, let me put it like this: I'm using the launchpad mailing-list, so see if that Ubuntu list will be worthwhile to follow ;-)
<imnichol> So wait, if I'm signed up for the launchpad list, I don't get the ubuntu list automatically?
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; don't sweat it. I didn't even knew about the ubuntu list
<ogra_> usually all "ubuntu-" named lists are managed by mailman
<ogra_> and no, they are not shared with LP
<imnichol> Welp, time to subscribe to another mailing list then
<ogra_> but there might be plans to move everythng to LP or some such
<ogra_> though i havent seen that announced
<MrChrisDruif> have
<MrChrisDruif> *?
<ogra_> haven't
<MrChrisDruif> Ah, read error. My bad =)
<ogra_> :)
<MrChrisDruif> Oh my, that was an explosion in activity yesterday on the mailing-list
<imnichol> Isn't tgm Thomas Mashos?
<imnichol> tgm4883 or whatever the numbers are
<imnichol> Oh hey, he's even in this channel! :)
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; you can auto-complete with tab, even with webchat applications
<imnichol> Oh man
<MrChrisDruif> And I think so imnichol
<imnichol> Awesome
<imnichol> I'm using xchat
<MrChrisDruif> Well, a whole new world unfolds for you then my friend =)
<imnichol> It's like I've crawled out of the Cave and I'm seeing the world instead of its shadows
<imnichol> To be honest, I'm not even sure what Ian, Thomas, and Jo-Erlend are arguing about
<imnichol> I've just been imagining that we'd end up tweaking Unity a bit to make it more TV friendly and then using custom repos to control what people install
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, most responses weren
<MrChrisDruif> t very usefull
<MrChrisDruif> Crappy ' location
<tgm4883> imnichol, I'm here
<tgm4883> NCommander, I've been looking into it
 * imnichol is away: I'm busy
<tgm4883> with any luck we will get it from Debian soon
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; xbmc is packaged in debian already?
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, there is someone working on it
<tgm4883> They've done alot of the work already
<MrChrisDruif> Great, that means it also comes to Ubuntu right?
<tgm4883> exactly
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, alot =')
 * imnichol is back (gone 00:03:16)
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; I don't like your away messages ;-)
<tgm4883> I actually just looked the guy up on IRC, hoping he will respond back. He's actually in the same state as me
<imnichol> Yeah I need to change them
<MrChrisDruif> It gives me false hope of activity in #ubuntu-tablet && #ubuntu-phone
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<imnichol> Oh man, just realized that
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, tgm4883; http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
<imnichol> So has anyone from Canonical weighed in on this at all?
<imnichol> I suffer from not knowing who anyone is
<tgm4883> yea I know, this netbook will be the death of me
<MrChrisDruif> Heh, I think popey & AlanBell both are Canonical, but I can be mistaken (maybe just popey)
<tgm4883> imnichol, I don't believe any canonical people have weighed in on any of the designs nor feature list
<popey> you are MrChrisDruif
<tgm4883> aside from marks post
<popey> AlanBell works for his own company.
<MrChrisDruif> Well, the most important Canonical person has weighed in then ;-)
<popey> i spy a few Canonical people here though
<tgm4883> popey, works for canonical. Formally? of UUPC?
<popey> I do.
<MrChrisDruif> But you are with Canonical right popey ?
<popey> I am.
<MrChrisDruif> =)
<MrChrisDruif> So imnichol , there is your answer =)
<tgm4883> looks like a linaro person is here as well
<tgm4883> there was another that joined from canonical earlier today, but I'd have to look at my join messages on my desktop
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, I hide those. Really annoying =P
<imnichol> I'm really excited for finals to be over next week, so that I can put some time into creating a mockup
<AlanBell> popey: how was the app show thing?
<popey> Bit rubbish
<popey> Great if you wanted a platform to put your apps on
<popey> or if you wanted some apps for your platform
<popey> But not so good if you were (for example) building an entire platform and apps :D
<AlanBell> I see
<AlanBell> so what kind of apps were people wanting to build for TV?
<popey> well there were lots of app development platforms
<tgm4883> NCommander, FWIW, i'm currently using the build scripts for XBMC to try and build it on my PPA for oneiric
<popey> "We can help you get your apps into Samsung/Boxee/Google etc devices"
<popey> "We can provide a white-box video playback platform for your devices"
<popey> etc
<popey> A few nice TV setups it was good to borrow ideas from âº
<AlanBell> are they expecting apps to be java based?
<popey> "they"?
<AlanBell> the "we can help you" people
<popey> didnt get into a lot of specifics, some were java tho
<popey> got a bit of swag too
<AlanBell> what is the swag de jour?
<AlanBell> USB keys?
<popey> yeah, and pads, pens
<popey> and a wooden aeroplane for Sam
<NCommander> tgm4883: I can give you a hand packaging it
<popey> Interesting URLs from leaflets:- http://www.pushbutton.tv/  & http://www.tvappagency.com/
<AlanBell> I think it would be rather fine to be app-compatible with other platforms
<tgm4883> NCommander, like i said, there isn't really any work to be done packaging it, unless you are talking for 12.04. I'm unsure if it will be in debian in time for the cutoff
<tgm4883> i'm still working out some of the kinks on my ppa though
<popey> there's loads of players, being compatible is nice but tricky given how vast the market is
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; have you got a wiki page by any chance?
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, for?
<MrChrisDruif> Well, it's always got to let people know who you are. Just like you can click on AlanBell's name on the /Designs page
<AlanBell> popey: not compatible with everything, perhaps, but it would be good to have a heap of apps from day 1 though
<tgm4883> I don't have a wiki page
<tgm4883> I have a google profile page
<tgm4883> I refuse to keep my contact info on multiple pages
<MrChrisDruif> You can also link to outside sources, just like the storyboards
<popey> AlanBell: I expect things to get worse before any consolidation happens
<popey> where "worse" means, even more proliferation of platforms
<AlanBell> supporting boxee apps looks plausible
<AlanBell> in fact boxee is an xbmc fork and should be more or less app compatible with xbmc
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; they are
<MrChrisDruif> Apparently you can use the "Boxee Remote" from the Android Market to control XBMC as well
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, fixed
<MrChrisDruif> Great
<tgm4883> Is Boxee even open source yet?
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; isn't it?
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, it wasn't last time I looked, but that was a while ago
<tgm4883> before the box was released
<MrChrisDruif> I thought (read: assumed) it was open-source
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, parts of it were open source. The parts that are based on XBMC
<MrChrisDruif> Alright
<MrChrisDruif> I should saddle up my horse and go to music, see ya'll later =)
<AlanBell> http://www.sg.hu/cikkek/86104/korvonalazodik_az_ubuntu_tv
<AlanBell> http://www.hwjournal.net/home-entertainment/ubuntu-vuole-andare-in-tv-9073
#ubuntu-tv 2011-11-30
<MrChrisDruif> Even more mentions of grand-designer AlanBell ? ;-)
<tgm4883> AlanBell, MrChrisDruif thats cause you're at the point where those pages are getting the info off of other blogs, not the Ubuntu TV wiki
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, I was just guessing, I haven
<MrChrisDruif> 't looked at the articles
<AlanBell> tgm4883: yes, I am just ammused by the spread of the story and translations etc
<AlanBell> some of them are taking fresh screenshots as I changed the stand of the TV
<mainerror> Morning.
<manofbronze> Question: What's the current development state for ubuntutv?
<ogra_> wow, he wasnt even here for a munite
<ogra_> *minute
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html
<AlanBell> I like it mhall119
<mhall119> thanks
<mhall119> I need to get the remote into the template
<mhall119> AlanBell: did you see my dash mockup too?
<AlanBell> very nice
<AlanBell> double press, interesting!
<mhall119> yeah, I'm thinking either double-press or press-and-hold actions will let us do more with fewer buttons
<AlanBell> using regular sized icons looks about right on the 1/4 screen
<mhall119> a TV is effectively a small-screen display, because of the distance you will typically be from it
<mhall119> I'm thinking it'll probably need a modified GTK theme to increase padding and spacing, then default to a large font size
<mhall119> no matter what we do, it won't be suitable for reading large amounts of text
<mhall119> not even email, IMO
<AlanBell> tweets probably
<AlanBell> email subjects and notifications maybe
<mhall119> yeah, that would work
<mhall119> notify-osd should work fine on a TV
<AlanBell> yeah, I think that could be an important part of it
<AlanBell> integrated with your other computing stuff
<mhall119> I was reading the ~ubuntu-tv ML archive earlier, there seems to be confustion about what ubuntu on a TV should be
<mhall119> it's my understanding that the whole point of Unity was to provide a common interface across different kinds of devices, which is why my mockups look so much like desktop Unity
<mhall119> is that what you were going with as well?
<mhall119> AlanBell: what are you throughts on working with non-maximized windows?
<mhall119> without a mouse or even a keyboard, it sounds like a pain
<AlanBell> yeah, not sure we should
<AlanBell> unless they are like the non-maximised unity lens/dash
<AlanBell> attached to the launcher
#ubuntu-tv 2011-12-01
<mhall119> that would require a lot of work, and have a distinctly different look and feel from desktop Unity
<mhall119> AlanBell: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html added a Dash with Filter
<AlanBell> nice
<AlanBell> filters might work well for the TV schedule lens
<mhall119> yeah
<mhall119> added search in the dash with onscreen keyboard
<MrChrisDruif> On the etherpad you mean mhall119 ?
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, aloha =)
<AlanBell> mhall119: oooo, I like the on screen keyboard
<AlanBell> and onboard can totally do that
<MrChrisDruif> mhall119; it looks pretty good so far =)
<mhall119> AlanBell: it's a screenshot of Maliit
<mhall119> https://wiki.maliit.org/Screenshots
<mhall119> thanks MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> How did you come to know of Ubuntu TV mhall119 ?
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: I was at UDS-P when Mark announced it, along with tablet, phone and cars
<mhall119> then I saw Mark's blog about what Alan was doing, and thought I'd join in the fun
<MrChrisDruif> IVI, not just cars
<MrChrisDruif> Ah, grand designer AlanBell ;-)
<mhall119> he is
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, don't let him hear it =')
<mhall119> AlanBell: do you have a problem with me putting my remote into the template file in bzr?
<mhall119> AlanBell: MrChrisDruif: What do you guys think of the "Program Info" slide? http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html#
<MrChrisDruif> mhall119; what page?
<MrChrisDruif> nv, page 2
<mhall119> yup
<MrChrisDruif> I like it, but I'd have to think about it. Look good so far =)
<MrChrisDruif> Maybe a bit busy in the top bar?
<mhall119> maybe, that's the Unity top panel though
<MrChrisDruif> I know
<mhall119> implementation will be tricky, since the top panel is Unity, but the progress overlay is whatever playback app is used, and the one button press needs to trigger both
<MrChrisDruif> How do you mean?
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, I'm almost of to hit the sack, 2:32 AM here
<mhall119> 2 apps will need to consume the same keypress event
<MrChrisDruif> That's not very difficult I think
<mhall119> I'm not sure if X (or Wayland) have a way of doing that, of if one of the apps will have to explicitly pass the key event on to the other
<MrChrisDruif> Same are starting to programs in terminal with a single "command"
<MrChrisDruif> But that is a concern for later I think?
<mhall119> a concern for someone else anyway, and that's enough for me :)
<MrChrisDruif> We are now in the "dream" phase as I like to call it. Creating storyboards of what we'd like to see happen and look
<MrChrisDruif> I think I'll add Ubuntu Phone/Tablet to my storyboard =)
<MrChrisDruif> They keep bugging on the mailing-list about a desktop-mode...screw that, we don't need that on the TV
<MrChrisDruif> With my storyboard they'll understand ;-)
<mhall119> I don't understand what they wanted different "modes" for
<mhall119> and the whole "It's just a large-screened PC" bit was just...wrong
<mhall119> a TV on the other side of the room has the same arc width as a small screen netbook
<mhall119> of a phone, if you're like me and still have an old SD-TV
<mhall119> or a phone
<mhall119> the biggest TV that would fit in my entertainment center would, from the distance of my couch, be equivilent to a 7-9 inch screen on my lap
<mhall119> or about the same as a phone in my hand
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, the bigger the better in my opinion, but still that's not to the point
<MrChrisDruif> What I'm thinking about if there really IS the need for making it a second big screen the tablet, then share it from the tablet to the TV instead of making some kind of wacky desktop mode on the tv
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; I should just disregard those early png's you created before Pencil?
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: you sure those aren't PNGs exported from Pencil?  which ones are you referring to?
<MrChrisDruif> I'm sure, I'm referring (among 2 others) to this: http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/progresspanel.png
<mhall119> ew, tubbies
<MrChrisDruif> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/programlens.png && http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/controlsinpanel.png as well
<mhall119> but that looks like it was made in Pencil too
<MrChrisDruif> So yes, I'm pretty sure ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> But at least before the "default template"
<mhall119> yeah
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, I agree, I don't want a full desktop on the TV. Although it would be neat to have an app that either A) acted as an extension of the laptop/tablet/netbook, or B) would display a shared application from the laptop/tablet/netbook
<MrChrisDruif> So yeah, I'll have to get cracking with my storyboard and share it with them. I think they will like it ;-)
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, I disagree. Some may like it, but I'm getting the feeling some people won't accept anything but a full blown desktop replacement
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, true that =')
<MrChrisDruif> But I don't think we should that one let him let his way, it
<MrChrisDruif> 's a TV for crying out loud
<MrChrisDruif> Damn you ' =')
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow...
 * MrChrisDruif is off to bed, but let's his client run. If you got something, just ping me
<dmj726> tgm4883: Yeah, we shouldn't make the TV, just a desktop
<dmj726> That said, we should approach this from a standpoint of changing the UI to be suited to the TV environment rather than limiting what the TV can do.
<imnichol> Hey, is the irclog at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/30/%23ubuntu-tv.txt?
<imnichol> Because the last update to it was at 23:41
<imnichol> How up to date is that?
<dmj726> imnichol: It seems to be about an hour old at most
<imnichol> Ok
<imnichol> Thanks
<dmj726> imnichol: actually no
<dmj726> It looks like it's 3 hours old
<dmj726> which is more than it was the other day for me
<mhall119> after 23:59, it goes to /2011/12/01/
<dmj726> mhall119 is right
<dmj726> so check the next day
<imnichol> Ahah
<dmj726> mhall119: just looked at your mockup
<imnichol> Wow, I'm dumb
<dmj726> mhall119: mostly I like it
<dmj726> Though I'd like to avoid typing when I don't have a good qwerty keyboard around
<imnichol> MrChrisDruif, what did you think of Ian Nicholson's suggestion of allowing the full repos to be enabled?
<imnichol> (I'm Ian Nicholson)
<mhall119> dmj726: I'd agree, but the dash has a search field, so I thought I'd show how it would be used
<mhall119> unfortunately, Unity is very search-driven, which is going to be difficult to use without a keyboard
<dmj726> mhall119: I have a simple mockup of a structure to avoid the need when you haven't already typed stuff
<mhall119> dmj726: did you read the caption below?  it only goes there when you click the search button on the remote, otherwise it's all navigation by arrow buttons
<dmj726> mhall119: yes I read it, but I missed that
<dmj726> imnichol: I'd suggest something different actually
<dmj726> So have the full repos enabled by default, but have some metadata in packages that indicates something is intended for UbuntuTV
<dmj726> And have the software center only list packages that are flagged for UbuntuTV shown by default
<mhall119> I think we should just change the default theme and WM behavior to work better on TVs, and leave the apps and packages as they are
<mhall119> for example, new windows that can be maximized should start maximized
<dmj726> sort of like how software center doesn't show "technical" packages now by default
<imnichol> dmj726, Wouldn't that require that we change the way that apt-get works?
<dmj726> imnichol: How do we determine if a package is "technical" or not?
<imnichol> Seems like it would be easier to just harness the advantages of apt-get(repos) in order to accomplish this
<imnichol> dmj726, Presumably that's what Canonical is going to do
<mhall119> then if people want to add Thunderbird to their TV, we don't try and make it hard for them
<imnichol> mhall119, We're not making it hard, just disabling it by default so someone who doesn't know very much about linux doesn't accidentally install the gimp
<dmj726> Perhaps require the repository be installed but disabled by default?
<imnichol> dmj726, What do you mean by the repo being installed?
<imnichol> Do you mean set up but commented out in sources.list?
<mhall119> why not let them accidentally install the gimp, if we can make the GTK theme and WM behavior turn the gimp into something that's reasonable to interact with on a TV?
<imnichol> mhall119, because that's way more work for like 5% of the people who will want that feature
<imnichol> Make it totally slick and easy and hard-to-mess up by default
<mhall119> I'm not sure it will be, all the work will be done in only a handful of places
<imnichol> Then have a switch for people who want to turn it into a full on computer
<imnichol> There's no way that you can make a program as complex as the gimp easy to use with a remote
<mhall119> no, not with a remote
<imnichol> And that's what I mean, the default repos should be programs you can use with only a remote
<dmj726> I think most of it is setting up the shell
<mhall119> but with a wireless keyboard and mouse, sure
<dmj726> and having the window manager be full screen only
<imnichol> And then if you want to hook up a keyboard, you can do that and then enable the regular repos
<mhall119> dmj726: can't do fullscreen only, not all app windows support it
<mhall119> but like I said, any windows that can be maximized, should be maximized
<dmj726> mhall119: I do mean maximized
<mhall119> I know
<mhall119> but again, I don't think you can do that for all windows
<dmj726> any apps that can't be maximized just sit there as big as they'll go in the middle
<imnichol> And honestly, those should probably be disabled
<imnichol>  It breaks the "sleakness" that we're (presumably) going for
<dmj726> imnichol: I'd rather hide them from being installed than actually disabling them.
<imnichol> dmj726, that's what I meant
<imnichol> Sorry for the confusion
<dmj726> np
<imnichol> When I say "disabled" I mean, put in a repo that's commented out in sources.list
<imnichol> Because after all, this will be a full on linux based system, so we shouldn't prevent people from doing anything if they really want to
<dmj726> http://askubuntu.com/questions/55130/how-does-software-center-determine-what-is-a-technical-item-and-what-isnt
<dmj726> imnichol: is that what the software sources GUI does when you uncheck the box?
<imnichol> dmj726, I don't understand your question
<imnichol> Could you rephrase it?
<dmj726> imnichol: I just wanted to make sure that the Software Sources GUI in software center was doing what you described as "commenting out"
<dmj726> so yeah, I'm fine with that
<dmj726> except...
<imnichol> Oh ok
<dmj726> wouldn't we need to duplicate a huge number of packages to both repositories?
<imnichol> And AFAIK, that's correct
<imnichol> Yes, theres that problem
<imnichol> Hm
<imnichol> How many gigs to the repos take up?
<imnichol> I've never hosted one
<dmj726> Perhaps have software Center only show things from the UbuntuTV repo by default
<dmj726> with a check boxes to show desktop or "technical" stuff.
<imnichol> Ahh
<imnichol> That's what I have been invisioning
<imnichol> *envisioning
<dmj726> This is really more of a search problem than an access problem
<imnichol> Didn't someone on the mailing list say that GNOME3 allowed applications to specify different interfaces based on some criteria?
<imnichol> So that could be another option
<dmj726> Advanced: "Show Applications designed for other flavors of Ubuntu"
<imnichol> yeah
<imnichol> In any case, that can be something we worry about at a later date
<dmj726> So if I want GIMP and don't mind making liberal use of the window switcher and using a mouse and keyboard, I can, but I know it's not made for UbuntuTV
<dmj726> yeah
<imnichol> But I think that a sane group of applications should be presented by default
<imnichol> And then provide a "here be dragons" option for people who want to use Libreoffice/the gimp/whatever
<dmj726> Right, we don't want random desktop apps mixed in unless the user asks for that specifically
<imnichol> Yes
<imnichol> I think that's pretty reasonable
<dmj726> But we should let the user ask for that
<dmj726> yep, we're on the same page
<imnichol> Cool
<imnichol> Is there anyone else paying attention to this that has anything to add?
<imnichol> I feel like mhall dropped out somewhere....
<dmj726> mhall119: http://imagebin.org/185405
<dmj726> This was my quick idea of what the Ubuntu button would bring up menu wise
<dmj726> same launcher design, just a different dash layout
<dmj726> imnichol: I  like Ian Santopietro's idea of a custom DEBIAN/control flag
<imnichol> The more I think about it the more I agree
<dmj726> and we use that as our default filter determinant for software center
<mhall119> imnichol: sorry, getting ready for sleep
<imnichol> Ah.  Catch ya later then
<dmj726> imnichol: I have open office on my phone :P
<imnichol> What kind of phone do you have?
<dmj726> Nokia n900
<imnichol> Ah
<imnichol> I've got a palm pre
<dmj726> It's a debian derivative
<dmj726> I never bothered installing Ubuntu on it though because it won't make phone calls when it's running Ubuntu
<imnichol> I have a touchpad that I'd love to run ubuntu on
<imnichol> Natively
<imnichol> I want ubuntu on my pre as well
<imnichol> You can run it in a vm, but I want it to be my only OS
<dmj726> Well, my n900 was basically me buying the closest thing to an Ubuntu phone I could get
<imnichol> I'd get one and install Ubuntu on it
<dmj726> I've got straight up debian in a chroot
<imnichol> I'm actually trying to get rid of my phone
<imnichol> But if they release one with Ubuntu, I'll be hooked :D
<dmj726> Yeah, All I really want is an Ubuntu phone on quality hardware and either a slideout keyboard or dual screens
<imnichol> I'd take a single keyboard
<imnichol> (A single onscreen keyboard)
<dmj726> (I don't like to have to cover up my window with an onscreen keyboard)
<imnichol> That's a valid complaint
<dmj726> I mean, hardware keyboards aren't hard to type on, but I like to see what I'm doing
<imnichol> Its why I like my Palm Pre, portrait slider ftw
<dmj726> n900 ctrl+c
<dmj726> switch windows
<dmj726> ctrl+v
<imnichol> Is it just me or has everyone(except tgm ;)) sort of agreed with the idea of a unity-based menu?
 * imnichol is away: Away
 * imnichol is back (gone 00:24:23)
<tgm4883> imnichol, about 450GB
<tgm4883> imnichol, also, I think there were more than just me that didn't like Unity as the 10' UI
<imnichol> tgm4883, yeah I know, thus the wink
<imnichol> Sounds to me like we want to keep the number of repos that we need to host down then, that's a lot of space
<imnichol> Although if we create a special repo just for Ubuntutv applications, it probably isn't going to be as big as that
<MrChrisDruif> Intresting discussion. Like the two of you said it should be very *WARNING Will Robinson* kind of decision, but an option I think it should be.
<MrChrisDruif> As far as apps; how we sort it it doesn't matter for now, but either some kind of separate repo or hiding all "desktop" apps from the normal repo would suffice I think
 * MrChrisDruif goes bed to bed. I hope Ian still saw what I said
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: yes, you can discard those early ones, I was just checking pencil out and messing with backgrounds
<AlanBell> mhall119: go ahead and put stuff in bzr, the remote would be great.
<AlanBell> mhall119: oh, but I think you put in the concept1.ep rather than the more useful basedesignframe one which is just slide 1
<AlanBell> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ubuntu-linux-smart-tv-canonical,14096.html
<MrChrisDruif> Luckily those people from Tom's Hardware got the 10 feet interface correct...
<MrChrisDruif> And it feels like everyone thinks Mark thought along with us, while he only agreed with our feature list ^_^
<MrChrisDruif> Btw...why are they still using the old COF?
<mainerror> Not sure but someone should tell them to use the new one instead.
<MrChrisDruif> Good god, that's what you get when people use old blog's etc for their info. A quote from one of the replies "Mandatory Ubuntu One account? Not for me thanks"
<MrChrisDruif> Haha =')
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha mainerror
<mainerror> Hello. :)
<MrChrisDruif> Yes, I was gonna read all them replies and give reply here and there
<MrChrisDruif> mainerror; it seems AlanBell already replied, but I made an additional note pointing towards our wiki page
<mhall119> 17:49 < daker> what are the essentiel features on a TV ?
<mhall119> daker: my essential features are:
<mhall119> 1) Stay as close to desktop Unity as makes sense
<mhall119> 2) Be usable from 10-20 feet away on a reasonable sized screen
<mhall119> 3) Be usable without a mouse or keyboard, only a remote control with a small set of buttons
<mhall119> 4) Optimized so that apps can be mostly used without being customized for TV
<daker> i see
<daker> mhall119, so to play songs you need to use rythmbox ?
<imnichol> mhall119, if youd on't mind me taking this... the idea is that there would be a default, but we've been talking about how to allow people to change the default if they want.
 * imnichol is away: I'm busy
 * imnichol is back (gone 00:00:41)
<mhall119> daker: yes, but maybe with a different interface
<mhall119> like the sound-indicator's controls do
<daker> and why not having some kind of a media center
<mhall119> daker: that's an option too
<mhall119> as long as it can be controlled through the remote, and integrates nicely with Unity
<dmj726> mhall119: http://imagebin.org/185405
<dmj726> Thoughts on something like this layout for dash?
<mhall119> dmj726: are those boxes in the center launchers or lenses?
<dmj726> I guess they would be like lenses
<dmj726> basically pressing "Movies" would show you your movies
<dmj726> which you could then select a movie
<mhall119> ok, I can see that.  It's a good design for desktop Unity's default dash screen too actually
<dmj726> More Apps would show a list of more kinds of apps
<dmj726> mhall119: hmm, yeah I suspect that the exact options given might be different for desktop unity though
<tgm4883> Is there technical merit to patching Unity for use as a 10' UI? Or is everyone just jumping on the Unity bandwagon because it's what Ubuntu already uses and/or they think that is what Canonical probably wants?
<AlanBell> tgm4883: did you watch Mark Shuttleworth's UDS keynote speech?
<tgm4883> AlanBell, yes
<AlanBell> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/820
<AlanBell> and the second paragraph of that blog post
<tgm4883> If that is the case, then we can all stop with our designs
<AlanBell> err, why?
<tgm4883> Community doesn't assist in design
<AlanBell> if you say so
<tgm4883> I don't have to say so, it's been the experience of anyone that has attempted to try and change Unity
<tgm4883> AlanBell, I went to the discussions at UDS. It was very much "this is not designed by committee"
<AlanBell> at UDS-P?
<tgm4883> yea
<AlanBell> ok, so why do you think there is merit in doing design work on a 10' UI that isn't unity focussed?
<AlanBell> because there is no way that is going to be proposed by canonical to OEMs
<tgm4883> Because I think Unity wastes too much space for a TV interface
<tgm4883> As odd as it sounds, you have less space on a TV
<tgm4883> so you need to use it all
<AlanBell> and how will you convince canonical to propose that to OEMs?
<tgm4883> To propose to use something else besides Unity, or to propose to fix Unity so it doesn't waste space on TV's?
<AlanBell> the former
<AlanBell> fixing unity not to waste space on TV is what this is all about really
<tgm4883> AlanBell, Providing that OEMs want to ship a media center, it shouldn't be that difficult to say A) We are putting money behind X software for development and support, and B) We are using X software because it is a tried and true method, we just want to extend it a bit futher to meet our needs
<AlanBell> yeah, that is how to convince OEMs
<AlanBell> not how to convince canonical
<tgm4883> oh
 * tgm4883 needs to learn to read
<tgm4883> yea, I can't convince canonical. They need to try on their own
<tgm4883> AlanBell, so it all boils down to this
<tgm4883> I have zero issue with having the 10' UI codebase be based on Unity code
<AlanBell> canonical want to go to the TV OEMs (probably cheap end of the scale) and propose their awesome new on screen display/media centre/app delivery platform thing that is theirs
<AlanBell> there are some lovely themes for xbmc and it is great
<tgm4883> I do have an issue with how almost every single mockup I've seen is basically just Desktop Unity with some special lenses
<AlanBell> but Canonical won't take that to the OEMs
<tgm4883> AlanBell, I know there are :)
<tgm4883> AlanBell, likely correct, and I think that is an issue
 * tgm4883 goes to heat his lunch
<MrChrisDruif> Good night everyone
#ubuntu-tv 2011-12-02
<mhall119> tgm4883: the whole purpose of Unity was to create a common interface for use on multiple devices
<mhall119> which is why my mockups at least have been focused on how Unity would look and work on a 10' UI
<tgm4883> mhall119, which means we should force something that doesn't work because of policy?
<mhall119> tgm4883: no, it means we should figure out what doesn't work, and fix it
<tgm4883> Which is what I thought this whole discussion was about
<mhall119> Unity's goal is to work on multiple form factors, including 10' displays.  So if it doesn't do that, that's a bug
<tgm4883> then it's a bug
<mhall119> it is, and the mockups are to help us discover those bugs
<tgm4883> not if nobody looks at the usefulness of mockups
<mhall119> so that the design and functionality of Unity can be changed
<tgm4883> or doesn't think about how a mockup on a 4 in screen at a distance of 30 inches translates to a 47 in screen at 10-12 feet
<mhall119> tgm4883: I'm thinking about that, AlanBell is too, I think we're mostly all on the same page with that
<tgm4883> I don't know if we are. Every mockup I've seen has small icons taking 5% of the width of the screen
<mhall119> tgm4883: did you see mine?
<tgm4883> IDK, link?
<mhall119> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html#
<mhall119> if we use the remote control buttons as keyboard input, then we don't need to worry so much about the target size for clicking, we just need to worry about being able to identify items and the current highlighted ones from a distance
<tgm4883> mhall119, your's and mine are kinda similar. I don't like screen 3 (launcher) though
<mhall119> what don't you like about it?
<tgm4883> mhall119, I'm not worried about clicking, I am worried about identification
<tgm4883> identification beyond "that one is blue, that one is red"
<tgm4883> I don't think it translates to a 10' UI
<mhall119> tgm4883: I have a Wii, which has like a 5x4 grid if icons, and I can identify them all fine on my less than 42in display
<tgm4883> I don't think you can tell what those icons will be from 10 feet away
<tgm4883> how large are the icons
<mhall119> on the wii?
<tgm4883> yes
<mhall119> the grid covers probably 90% of my screen
<tgm4883> IIRC, they were like 5 inch squares on my 32-in TV
<mhall119> sounds about right
<tgm4883> right, but your screen 3 doesn't cover 90% of the screen
<tgm4883> it covers 10%
<mhall119> no, that's kind of big, I think they're about 2 inches on the side
<mhall119> right, but it's only 1 column
<tgm4883> i think your column is too small
<tgm4883> I like the rest though
<mhall119> possibly
<tgm4883> I think we could combine ours for something really nice
<mhall119> ditching the colored backlight might help the identification of the icons as well
<mhall119> where is yours?
<tgm4883> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/tgm4883/#
<mhall119> tgm4883: my goal in these mockups was more to imagine how the remote would be used to navigate Unity as it is today, so I didn't give much through about sizes and colors
<tgm4883> mhall119, I'd also like to add a small icon to each of the menu entries (eg. a music note for music, video reel for movies, etc)
<mhall119> tgm4883: but that would seem over-bearing on a desktop or tablet
<tgm4883> mhall119, this isn't for a desktop or a tablet though
<tgm4883> this is for a TV
<mhall119> it's for all of them, that's the goal of Unity
<mhall119> so the question is, can we make a single UI that, with the least amount of changes, will work on all of them?
<mhall119> I think we can
<tgm4883> mhall119, no
<mhall119> I hope we can
<tgm4883> they are fundamentally different
<mhall119> I'm not sure Canonical has the resources to devote to another UI development
<tgm4883> mhall119, so there is two issues with that statement
<tgm4883> 1) You assume that making unity work on a TV would require a complete rewrite
<mhall119> of the code, no.  But of the design and testing, yes
<tgm4883> 2) If it did require a complete rewrite, you assume that there isn't anything already done that would work
<mhall119> let me clarify, I didn't mean specifically programmer resources
<tgm4883> mhall119, again, i disagree. AFAIK, There has been zero testing of the design for UbuntuTV
<mhall119> as you point out, the extra programming would probably be managable
<tgm4883> mostly because it doesn't exist
<mhall119> right, but there was been significant testing for Unity itself
<tgm4883> On the other hand, there has been loads of testing of media center design
<mhall119> I'm not sure that a media center is the target Mark had for Unity on TVs
<tgm4883> I'm about to say something that is probably going to be widely unpopular
<mhall119> moving to Mint?
<tgm4883> I sure hope it is
<tgm4883> Thats what we discussed in the UDS session
<tgm4883> there was zero discussion of writing documents on a TV
<tgm4883> anyway, back to my widely unpopular statement
<mhall119> I don't think anybody would want to
<tgm4883> There is a reason that almost every media center out there follows the same design principles.
<tgm4883> it works
<tgm4883> I think we should be similar to those
<mhall119> a fair statement
<mhall119> but then again, if Apple followed that, we'd all still have crappy portable music players
<mhall119> not that I don't still have a crappy portable music player, but that's beside the point
<tgm4883> mhall119, would you say that apple made that change because it worked better?
<mhall119> yes
<dmj726> We don't want to make a clone of stuff that's already out there
<tgm4883> Then we agree
<dmj726> That's not how you make a leading technology
<tgm4883> dmj726, I have no issue with change
<tgm4883> I have an issue with changing things for the sake of change
<mhall119> tgm4883: we seem to have fundamentally different desires for the end product
<mhall119> I don't want a media center
<mhall119> I already have one, almost every cable and satelite operator ships some kind of media center
<tgm4883> If we are going to change something, it needs to be because A) something wasn't working right, and B) this change was to fix that
<tgm4883> mhall119, what do you want then?
<mhall119> I can use boxee or xbmc or myth or whatever
<dmj726> I want a device that *is* good for recording and consuming media
<dmj726> but it should also do new things
<dmj726> like collaboration and social interaction
<tgm4883> dmj726, boxee already does that
<dmj726> Not like I want.
<tgm4883> how do you want it?
<dmj726> Well, if I'm right about boxee it's basically twitter apps and such on the Boxee, right?
<dmj726> and you control the app via the remote with a built-in keyboard
<tgm4883> dmj726, I believe it has that, but you can also recommend shows to friends and such
<tgm4883> I honestly haven't used it in quite a while
<dmj726> yeah, that's not really what I'm thinking of
<dmj726> So all built-in functionality should be remote friendly.  I'm making this clear.
<tgm4883> ok
<dmj726> However, Ubuntu TV should allow applications to take advantage of different input devices, like tablets, smartphones, and PCs as appropriate for the app.
<tgm4883> Are you talking about having your tablet act as a mouse/keyboard?
<dmj726> Additionally, I want apps that can be seamlessly transparent over the network and use the TVs strengths when used combined with other devices
<dmj726> tgm4883: That's part of it, yes.  But not the whole story
<tgm4883> that would be an OS function it seems, but whats the rest of the story
<dmj726> So, I'm editing an image, animation, video, whatever.  Me and my group are all working on our pieces
<dmj726> The TV is our shared screen.
<tgm4883> oh, your that guy
<dmj726> So I work individually on my task, but we can easily collaborate
<dmj726> THis would also be really nice for games
<tgm4883> I have zero idea how you are going to do that as a function of the OS and not a function of the application
<tgm4883> if you have any insights into that, please share
<dmj726> Well, you need a Shell, and a couple of basic pieces in place in the OS to make this work well.
<dmj726> If your device is just a media center, there's no infrastructure for that, short of hacking the media center out of it
<tgm4883> dmj726, IMHO, you are still going to need the application to support multiple people working on a single project at the same time
<tgm4883> dmj726, and you are thinking media center 1.0, not 2.0
<dmj726> Also, some network friendly hooks into the interface system for pointing devices, basic things like that will be good for tablet control
<tgm4883> that would all be at the OS level though, not part of a 10' UI (other than the portion that would display the image)
<dmj726> tgm4883: I know you do need application support.  I'm developing one such application.
<tgm4883> dmj726, ok, so for future clarification. Don't call that social. Call it collaborative
<imnichol> The thing I see with dropping unity is that there really isn't a point for Canonical to be involved in this project then.  We might as well just be using xbmc
<dmj726> well, social referred more to social gaming and the like
<tgm4883> dmj726, all of which you can do with current media centers
<dmj726> which is social engagement rather than collaboration, but point taken
<tgm4883> imnichol, if we use Unity and that is Canonical's only connection, they shouldn't be included anyway
<tgm4883> That is a weak reason for them to be involved
<imnichol> tgm4883, if we drop unity, then canonical has to spend time/money investing in a new gui
<imnichol> That will only be used for one thing
<dmj726> Yeah, I think we should keep unity, make the window manager maximized/full screen only, tweak unity for 10 foot UI niceness, add proper input/output APIs and call it a day
<dmj726> tgm4883: Who else will push this to OEMs if not Canonical?
<tgm4883> imnichol, I'm not saying drop unity (ok, I am, but only because there is other stuff out there more developered). I'm saying it needs to work for a 10' UI
<imnichol> Adding a new UI will necessitate a bunch of new code
<tgm4883> dmj726, 1) why does this need to be pushed to OEMs 2) Why couldn't Canonical be involved for other reasons that Unity
<tgm4883> imnichol, no it wouldn't
<dmj726> tgm4883: You think this will become popular if it isn't?
<tgm4883> imnichol, well, define "a bunch"
<tgm4883> dmj726, yes
<tgm4883> dmj726, but you're missing my point anyway. I still think Canonical would be involved without Unity
<dmj726> So your mom will install Ubuntu TV on her PC and hook that up to her TV?
 * tgm4883 rolls eyes
<tgm4883> dmj726, no, but my mom isn't going to buy a Ubuntu TV either
<imnichol> Well hold on, it's a valid question
<imnichol> Why wouldn't she if it was in stores as a set top box?
<dmj726> tgm4883: I'm not saying they would take their ball and go home, though they might not let that decision happen with their distro
<dmj726> tgm4883: My mom would if it could record her shows and do other cool things.
<imnichol> I want it on the record that I don't speak for Canonical or the Ubuntu community in any sense
<tgm4883> imnichol, dmj726 so here's the thing. Canonical isn't taking their ball and going home. They said they were doing Ubuntu on TV's, so that is happening. Whether we (you and I and the community) actually have any say in what the UI is remains to be seen
<dmj726> tgm4883: true
<tgm4883> honestly I think popey, willcooke, and the other canonical employees need to take charge of this room a little more and at least give us a little bit of direction
<dmj726> BTW, I like the idea of Unity for consistency's sake across Ubuntu
<imnichol> tgm4883, agreed
<tgm4883> dmj726, I can take a PC, install Unity, and hook that up to my TV. Sit on my couch with my keyboard and mouse (since there is no remote support yet) and wouldn't be able to make Unity functional for a TV
<imnichol> tgm4883, only because there aren't any apps that do TV stuff (afaik, I've never tried)
<dmj726> I really don't see how Unity *wouldn't* be really easy to make functional for a TV
<dmj726> It's just the shell
<dmj726> Now apps is another story
<imnichol> The entire point of unity is that it gets out of your way, which is exactly what you want when you're watching tv
<dmj726> Unity would be really nice for a TV interface
<tgm4883> imnichol, thats a strawman argument
<tgm4883> there isn't a media center in the world that doesn't get out of your way when watching TV
<dmj726> The issue you're talking about is the TV app
<dmj726> granted it's the main app, and it would be started the moment you boot your TV
<tgm4883> You do full screen video, you have an OSD available for info and your done
<imnichol> Well, no, since a strawman requires intent to deceve, I apprently just don't understand the why Unity doesn't work for TVs except for the remote issue, which we've all agreed is going to need to be fixed
<tgm4883> imnichol, I think I've stated multiple times that it's a vision issue in that you have to be able to know what each item on the screen is
<dmj726> so design a great set of core TV, video, music, etc apps, heck use existing media center software for the time being
<imnichol> tgm4883, I guess I haven't been here for that
<tgm4883> imnichol, guess not
<tgm4883> dmj726, and that is my second complaint about what everyone is suggesting
<imnichol> So is it icon size then?  Icon clarity?
<tgm4883> the "lets use unity and have it launch rhythmbox for music"
<imnichol> Oh ok, continue
<tgm4883> imnichol, yes, the wasted space issue
<dmj726> said applications should be designed for TV
<dmj726> Maemo didn't throw rhythmbox on the phone and call it a day
<dmj726> they designed a front end that was very usable on a tiny screen with fat fingers
<tgm4883> dmj726, I disagree a bit (I agree, but with clarification). the music app should be explicitly written to work with the 10' UI
<dmj726> tgm4883: I agree
<dmj726> the use existing meant maybe do use a media center as your media app
<imnichol> dmj726, tgm4883 The issue with interface was discussed on the mailling list
<tgm4883> because A) You don't want a strange transition to a different UI just for music, and B) you will still need a 10' UI for the music
<imnichol> We can use repos in order to resolve that problem
<dmj726> in the long run, writing apps to be consistent and easy to use with the overall scheme should be done
<tgm4883> dmj726, yes
<dmj726> and default apps should fit with the TV setting perfectly
<tgm4883> dmj726, so let me get a little clarification from you then. Are you saying use Unity, then if you want to watch media launch a media center app?
<dmj726> that said, maybe using existing backends and just writing a nice webkit UI (or something) for the front end is a good idea
<dmj726> yes, Unity is just the shell
<tgm4883> hmm
<tgm4883> not sure I really like that either, let me ask this
<dmj726> it lets you find your apps, get to them easily, and it launches any app to either a full screen or maximized view
<tgm4883> The point of Unity is to launch your applications?
<dmj726> Also, important apps would be right in the launcher
<dmj726> tgm4883: also find media
<dmj726> and provide whatever notifications
<dmj726> like new messages or system time
<tgm4883> ok, but all of those things can be done in current media centers
<dmj726> So in a current media center, how do I launch the video editing app that I installed through the software center?
<dmj726> and how would I switch back and forth between the video editor and the TV?
<tgm4883> In a current media center, you would launch it from the menu item that said "video editing app" (or whatever)
<mhall119> hmmm, I wonder if a scrollwheel on a remote would be useable
<dmj726> tgm4883: So current media centers have a window manager?
<tgm4883> mhall119, for what?
<mhall119> tgm4883: for scrolling
<dmj726> Clarification I do not have a media center
<tgm4883> dmj726, what you are asking, can already be done with XBMC
<mhall119> well, for *faster* scrolling than hitting the arrow buttons repeatedly
<dmj726> The hold the mouse like a remote says scroll wheel could work
<dmj726> tgm4883: okay
<imnichol> tgm4883, but it would require some coding, just like if we go with Unity
<mhall119> that method has never felt natural to me
<tgm4883> mhall119, you can hold down on a remote button
<mhall119> I always way over or under shoot
<tgm4883> imnichol, what would require coding? It already does it
<mhall119> it might make for an overall better remote UX
<tgm4883> 'already' implies that the coding part is done
<dmj726> Can I open say Firefox inside XBMC?
<mhall119> anyway, added a Shotwell mockup to http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html#
<tgm4883> dmj726, yes
<tgm4883> dmj726, it will launch applications
<tgm4883> AFAIK anything you say it will launch, providing you can launch it on the underlying OS
<imnichol> tgm4883, If we go with one of the existing media centers, it will require that we modify the code, and if we use unity, we'll have to modify code as well...(continued)
<dmj726> tgm4883: Can you switch between open ones?
 * mhall119 is contemplating a tiling window manager
<tgm4883> dmj726, I would have to check. I'm assuming you can via alt-tab, which you would need with any frontend
<imnichol> tgm4883, the only difference between using an existing media center or unity is which code we have to modify
<dmj726> mhall119: I wouldn't mind a tiling manager being included (might be good for PiP or PoP) but full screen should be the most obvious and default case
<tgm4883> imnichol, not true, there is way more you have to modify for Unity
<mhall119> dmj726: yeah, I'm thinking for multi-windowed apps
<dmj726> tgm4883: So I don't disapprove of XBMC if what you say is true and the firefox window is usable and accessible within XBMC on that ground
<imnichol> tgm4883, I'm not sure that would be true...
<dmj726> However, I still thing Unity might be a good idea for other reasons
<tgm4883> Unity coding: Change unity to accept remote control input, change sizing/layout for inclusion on a TV, create (or modify existing) each type of media app (music, video, picture, etc) so it will work in a 10' and look decent during transitions
<tgm4883> XBMC coding: Theme it to look like unity
<dmj726> mhall119: Might be good if GIMP could use that, though I bet GIMP will be single window friendly by then (note I'm not saying GIMP is a key app on TV)
<tgm4883> Seems like there is less coding on the XBMC side ;)
<imnichol> tgm4883, can XBMC keep a movie/tv playing while you browse the internet?  Also using xbmc means that the codebase gets a lot bigger.
<dmj726> mhall119: nice mockup
<tgm4883> imnichol, yes I believe it can
<dmj726> reminds me of the dmedia browser prototype
<imnichol> tgm4883, how does allowing remote control input require a huge code change?
<tgm4883> imnichol, did you not read the rest of that line?
<tgm4883> imnichol, I'm starting to wonder about your motives here, do you really love Unity this much?
<imnichol> Hm
<imnichol> I'm a secret microsoft plant here to destroy ubuntu by pushing unity ;)
<tgm4883> sweet, are you a Ficus?
<imnichol> Lemme guess, Steve Jobs paid you to do the same thing on belalf of apple?
<imnichol> lol
<dmj726> I'm a secret Novacut plant here to ensure Ubuntu TV is awesome.
<imnichol> My god, how deep does the conspiracy go?
<dmj726> hehe
<imnichol> tgm4883, What's that a reference to?  I feel like it's a book I've read.
<tgm4883> imnichol, IDK, a Ficus is an office plant. I thought it was funny :)
<tgm4883> probably exists in some book though
<imnichol> Oh ok.  I could have sworn that there was some story about people being a ficus.  I think it was Douglas Adams.
<tgm4883> could be
<imnichol> tgm4883, tell you what, put up a unity screenshot with arrows that point out what sizing/layout issues you think there are in unity that won't work for a tv, and you'll convince me that we should use xbmc/whatever
<dmj726> mhall119: you around?
<dmj726> http://imagebin.org/186588
<popey> 03:54:24 < tgm4883> honestly I think popey, willcooke, and the other canonical employees need to take charge of this room a little more and at least give us a little bit of direction
<popey> noted
 * AlanBell agrees
<AlanBell> would be good to get clarity over whether this is an Ubuntu TV or Unity TV project
<AlanBell> what I find interesting about mhall119's mockups is that the thinks like shotwell and the unity launcher look about right on the 1/4 scale screen when they are regular sized
<AlanBell> so desktop things scaled up by a factor of 4 seem to fit the full HD 10 foot UI
<AlanBell> factor of 4 in terms of pixels
<dmj726> AlanBell: I would tend to agree
<dmj726> One might actually argue what the exact scale factor is
<dmj726> Might turn out say 3x or 2x or 6x is really the right size.
<dmj726> but I think it does need scaling up
<dmj726> AlanBell: Unity will need this anyway for tablets and smartphones
<dmj726> AlanBell: hmm...they're not *too* far off, but I do feel the launcher icons are a bit too big
<dmj726> My guess is 2-3x is probably right
<daker> who want to see my mockup ?
<AlanBell> me!, where are they daker?
<daker> i have only one at the moment ã
<AlanBell> dmj726: interestingly 1920x1080 divides by 3 to 640x360
<daker> AlanBell, http://ubuntuone.com/0tZlYZ2bf5WqFyuS6nAcEC
<dmj726> AlanBell: intestestong
<AlanBell> nice looking bottom bar thing
<dmj726> I'd say we should allow enough space for at least 8 icons vertically in the launcher
<AlanBell> dmj726: I think I will add a second slide to the base design frame with the screen at 640x360
<dmj726> gut feeling says that's a good number
<dmj726> 5 seems to limited
<daker> AlanBell, what do you think ?
<AlanBell> daker: the playback controls are nice
<daker> ã
<mhall119> dmj726: were you wanting me to use that image in a mockup?
<daker> mhall119, have you seen my 1st mockup ?
<mhall119> daker: no, the U1 link you posted earlier wasn't working
<daker> mhall119, yes look here http://people.ubuntu.com/~daker/ubuntu-tv/
<mhall119> daker: nice, except I think the text is too small for people to read from a distance
<daker> mhall119, click on the image to see it
<mhall119> daker: I meant that, at 10 feet (3-4 meters) away, that'll be hard to read
<mhall119> even on a large screen tv
<daker> i see
<AlanBell> that isn't 16:9 ratio
<daker> AlanBell, i think you are right
<sladen> http://www.youtube.com/leanback  is quite an interesting, simple TV interface
<sladen> handy to run full-screen on a monitor/TV
<sladen> navigation appears to be all left/right/up/down/enter
<dmj726> mhall119: just noticing some similarities between your shotwell bit and our dmedia browser prototype
<dmj726> if you'd like to use the screenshot, that would be kinda cool though
<tgm4883> dmj726, (off to work), but might be better to have a second info screen with that smaller text a bit larger. eg. hit info once, it pulls up the controls and volume, hit it again pulls up a larger overlay (maybe the bottom half of the screen) for you to tweet, see video info, etc
<mhall119> sladen: nice one
<mhall119> I think once we have a platform like Ubuntu on the TV, there will be more TV-layout webapps like that
<mhall119> just like we have phone-layout webapps now
<mhall119> sladen: I added a screenshot of leanback to my mockups: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html#
<mhall119> I'm beginning to question the need for number buttons on the TV remote.  Besides picking a channel by number for broadcast television, is there any use for them?
<mhall119> none of my mockups have used them so far
<dmj726> mhall119: perhaps picking items from a list?
<dmj726> I'd say we should keep them if we want to interact with TV at all, just so we don't make people with lots of channels surf back and forth all the time
<mhall119> dmj726: ok, maybe they can be smaller and less in the way though, if we're not going to use them much
<dmj726> mhall119: that makes sense, though I'm not sure the remote design is really up to Canonical other than saying what buttons are absolutely necessary
<dmj726> I would think OEMs would design that, perhaps with a little guidance from Canonical.
<popey> sladen: bbc have a similar thing... http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/bigscreen/
<popey> you can click into the browser content and then navigate with arrow keys
<mhall119> I get the feeling webapps like these may be a prime use of UbuntuTV
<mhall119> we should see if anyone is working on a browser optimized for TV use
<MrChrisDruif> mhall119; webapps? Did I miss something?
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: like the BBC's iplayer, or youtube's 'leanback'
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: in much the same way people make mobile phone apps using HTML5, they could make TV apps too
<MrChrisDruif> How did I get this link? http://imagebin.org/185405
#ubuntu-tv 2011-12-03
<mhall119> dmj726: we had talked a couple days ago about using lenses instead of launchers in the Launcher, I made a mockup of that, let me know what you think: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mhall119/utv/index.html#
<mhall119> I think it might be better
<MrChrisDruif> mhall119; where do they start?
<MrChrisDruif> Page 8?
<MrChrisDruif> And I think for a lot of things lenses might indeed be better, as they are temporarily used, contradictory to desktop apps. You search a video, then watch it or add it to a playlist. Same with music.
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, I'm off
<dmj726> mhall119: my team has some experience with HTML5 for apps
<AlanBell> mhall119: that does look better
<AlanBell> mhall119: would make a heap more sense to me on the desktop too quite frankly
<MrChrisDruif> mhall119; where did you get all those icons for use in Pencil or can one import icons from the theme?
<mhall119> AlanBell: I agree
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: the Unity icons I got from /usr/share/unity/4
<AlanBell> I don't really like the way the unity launcher mixes up stuff I am running with stuff I might want to run, but isn't running now
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, could it be possible to have links to the .ep files as well?
<MrChrisDruif> I like a lot of the ideas already posted, but with minor changes
<AlanBell> I posted my ones
<MrChrisDruif> Only the BaseDesignFrame.ep I think?
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/pencilfiles/ nope
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: mine is up there, just no link to it
<MrChrisDruif> Alright =)
 * mhall119 is adding links
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: AlanBell: I added a Download column to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs#preview for linking to our .ep files
<AlanBell> good plan
<MrChrisDruif> I was about to do the same, thanks for the quick action mhall119 =)
<mhall119> np
<MrChrisDruif> mhall119; you're also an Ubuntu Member?
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: yes
<MrChrisDruif> mhall119; you source file isn't correct it seems?
<MrChrisDruif> Anything after Dash w/ Search looks weird
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: hmmm, looks okay to me still....
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: I'm using Pencil 1.2, are you using 1.3?
<MrChrisDruif> Lemme check
<mhall119> I wonder if it's a version imcompatibility
<MrChrisDruif> 1.3.2
<MrChrisDruif> The first pages look good to me so that would be awkward
<mhall119> What does the Shotwell page look like?
<MrChrisDruif> Same as Dash w/ Search, but without the image on the tv
<MrChrisDruif> And two of the buttons swapped the orange glow
<dmj726> MrChrisDruif: http://imagebin.org/185405 was me
<MrChrisDruif> Ah =)
<MrChrisDruif> I had it in one of my open tabs =)
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: hmmm, I wonder if it's not embedding the images properly
<MrChrisDruif> Like I said, the first couple of pages look good mhall119
<MrChrisDruif> dmj726; the BFB is just a place horder for "useful" icons =)
<mhall119> yeah, not much use in having a button for the dash when launching this all from a remote
<dmj726> mhall119: That's an interesting point
<MrChrisDruif> mhall119; how about when you use a wii-mote for instance?
<dmj726> I would think the button is a good idea for similarity with Ubuntu
<dmj726> and for pointy devices
<MrChrisDruif> But the BFB != the Ubuntu button
<imnichol> MrChrisDruif, Presumably you'd press the menu button onthe wimote to bring up the menu?
<MrChrisDruif> That menu on the side?
<MrChrisDruif> You don't mean the Dash?
<imnichol> Oh ok
<imnichol> Sorry, yeah didn't catch what you were saying
<imnichol> My bad
<dmj726> BFB isn't the ubuntu button?
<MrChrisDruif> Nope, it was just a placeholder for other buttons/apps
<MrChrisDruif> You can ask AlanB if you want =)
<dmj726> oh, that BFB in my mockup just means the Ubuntu Button
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, BFB stands for Big Friendly Button ;-)
<dmj726> well, the Ubuntu Button is big and friendly too, ya know!
<dmj726> hehe
<AlanBell> yeah, that it what it is
<AlanBell> BFB==the ubuntu logo button
<dmj726> :)
<imnichol> Is there a reason to *not* use the Ubuntu logo button for the BFB?
<AlanBell> imnichol: I just couldn't be bothered to get it right as I wasn't really doing a mockup
<dmj726> in my mockups it says BFB because AlanBell did that before and it seemed easier than hunting down the logo and adding it
<AlanBell> I was just making an export filter for pencil
<imnichol> Lazyness - the cornerstone of human ingenuity ;)
<dmj726> it's easier to type BFB than make an Ubuntu logo in pencil
<imnichol> W00t first snow of the year!
<imnichol> Gotta go move my car
<imnichol> So MrChrisDruif, do you take issue with the BFB being the Ubuntu Button?
<MrChrisDruif> Meh, not really =)
<mhall119> MrChrisDruif: I'm not planning on having a wiimote or other pointing device for user input
<mhall119> primarily for 2 reasons
<dmj726> mhall119: while we want this to play nicely with just a remote, I think we should keep touch/pointing devices in mind, especially if we end up with people gaming on our platform
<mhall119> 1) It's actually quite hard to accurately point with a wiimote, and you will fatigue quickly holding your arm up
<mhall119> 2) Wiimotes and other continuous input devices will drain batteries quickly, which doesn't make for an ideal user experience
<mhall119> dmj726: I agree, and I'm trying not to come up with any designs that *won't* work with one
<mhall119> but I don't want the basic interactions to depend on one, or even be optimized for one
<mhall119> even with Netflix on my Wii, I end up using the arrow buttons for navigation most often, because using it for pointing is so awkward
<dmj726> mhall119: yeah, all basic functionality should be designed to work well with both pointing and button navigation
<mhall119> which would also make the desktop better, IMO
<dmj726> I could see myself using something equivalent to a graphics slate with a TV for instance and not wanting to have to go grab the remote to switch windows for a moment.
<dmj726> mhall119: yes, more accesibility friendly
<dmj726> mice can be a bit of a problem for visually impaired and blind users
<dmj726> though I did once design a UI for touchscreens that a totally blind person could use
<mhall119> dmj726: interesting, are you involved with the ubuntu accessibility team at all?
<dmj726> mhall119: I've chatted with them a bit
<dmj726> Last year I made an accessibility app for maemo to take pictures and read any text it finds in them aloud.
<mhall119> cool
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-26
<mhall119> bobweaver: can you see https://www.google.com/calendar/b/1/render?tab=oc&gsessionid=25CDYTCg8_M8FL18CCEd4g
<bobweaver> thanks mhall119  I will add things to the agenda once I get home from work. (breaking down Memphis Broadway Musical )
<mhall119> bobweaver: sounds like fun
<bobweaver> yeah it can be at times but it is such " neck down  "  work. but I need the cash so gotta do what you gotta do :) again thanks for setting up the meeting mhall119  you are AWESOME !
<mhall119> bobweaver: no problem, agian I won't be around for that meeting, but if you guys can pick a day of the week and time for recurring meetings, I'll get those setup as well
 * mhall119 has already added that to the agenda
<mhall119> and thanks again for all your work on this
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-28
<bobweaver> we need Netfix lens now that it works
<bobweaver> why wont the lensbar/-> launcher  go on the Left . BARGHHH :)
<bobweaver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb1vMKSIK5c
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-29
<tgm4883> mhall119, do you have any good docs you can point me to regarding using JSON in Python (python 3 if available), specifically with requesting JSON output from a web server and then processing it?
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-30
<mhall119> tgm4883: google simplejson
<mhall119> it's a python lib for reading and writing json
<tgm4883> mhall119, no worky, simplejson is not python 3
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  I do not know python but looks like this will do the trick  well one of them  http://docs.python.org/3.0/library/urllib.request.html
<bobweaver> http://docs.python.org/3/library/json.html
<bobweaver> http://docs.python-requests.org/en/latest/user/quickstart/
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  you have played with the netflix desktop thingy ?
<tgm4883> bobweaver, yea I've been working with that, I finally was able to get it to actually give me json from the server
<tgm4883> I haven't played with the netflix stuff yet. It's though wine, so I'm not sure how well it would even work for us
<bobweaver> Just a friendly reminder that are team meeting is in 50 minutes on #ubuntu-meeting . Hope that I am not the only one that show up :)
<tgm4883> bobweaver, thanks for the reminder :)
<bobweaver> np tgm4883  hope to see you there
<tgm4883> bobweaver, ping me again when it starts
<bobweaver> ok
<tgm4883> mhall119, jhodapp Saviq everyone else, meeting is starting in #ubuntu-meeting
<jhodapp> thanks tgm4883
<Saviq> tgm4883, sorry, I won't be able to join, jhodapp will be our worthy representative
<tgm4883> currently doing Agenda Documentation: The wiki is kinda old and refers to unity 2d a whole lot
<tgm4883> ok
<tgm4883> bobweaver, what info exactly did you want for the ethernet tuners?
<bobweaver> well just need to hear storys about  them like yeah this is buggy or this seems to work better ect
<CrestedNewt> hiya Joseph
<tgm4883> bobweaver, really it depends on what people are trying to record
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  tbh I did not know that it was even a option till today
<tgm4883> http://www.silicondust.com/products/hdhomerun/atsc/
<bobweaver> as you know I am just C{++} guy
<tgm4883> there is also a cable card version
<bobweaver> Hey CrestedNewt
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  the reason I ask is pandaboard
<bobweaver> no pci slots I do not think ?
<tgm4883> http://smolt.mythtv.org/static/stats/stats.html
<tgm4883> that has some pretty good stats on actual hardware being used
<bobweaver> thanks tgm4883
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  it was you that sent me email about documentation ?
<bobweaver> or was that someone else ?
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - yes it was me. You seem to have quite a bit on your plate
 * bobweaver eats of vikings plate 
<bobweaver> :)
<CrestedNewt> careful - he is about to eat his dog :D
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  would you like to set up a google hangout with me in the next coulple of days so we can chat face to face about this
<bobweaver> would be easy way for me
<CrestedNewt> sure - I'm a GoogleHangout virgin but I'll give it a try
<bobweaver> cool try to set up nn the next couple days and I ill put a thing out on the mailing list about it for other to show up also
<bobweaver> figure some time next week
<bobweaver> If that is good for you and anyone else that want s to join that
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - ok - I better get hold of a webcam then :D
<bobweaver> mainly so I can show you and other's how to test the new 3d code
<bobweaver> then put that into wiki on how to contribute
<CrestedNewt> that's great - but I am not a coder,
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  other things are we have to rm all the unity 2d testing stuff and replace with unity 3d stuff
<bobweaver> on the wiki that is
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - thats fine but I think that we will need to talk quite a bit on that so I can get up to speed on the differences
<bobweaver> sure CrestedNewt
<bobweaver> do you all think that we should file bugs against this ?
<bobweaver> or make blueprint ect
<CrestedNewt> This is outside my area of experise
<CrestedNewt> *expertise
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  what is out of bounds to talk about ?  that is something maybe me and you can talk on the phone about ?
<bobweaver> dont know if this is going to go to skunkworks ect
<bobweaver> stuff like that
<CrestedNewt> ~I have no idea's of blueprints etc - other than building plans for a house
<jhodapp> bobweaver, pm me with what you want to talk about that you think might be out of bounds
<bobweaver> like how mark posted about skunkworks and not showing things off to the public
<cm-t_> hi, I had probleme with connexion, wanted to add in the log of the meeting  a "thanks" ubuntu-tv team and you bobweaver
<bobweaver> hey cm-t_  how you been ?
<cm-t_> fine and you ?
<bobweaver> cm-t_,  qu'est-ce que vous voulez ajouter Ã  journaux?
<bobweaver> great thanks for asking
<cm-t_> There is for the moment only 1 video posted about the ubuntu TV but it is so amator that I am not sure the link should be buzz'ed ^^
<bobweaver> again thanks for getting more attention to Ubuntu TV and the france party
<bobweaver> cm-t_,  ok
<bobweaver> lets see link plz
<bobweaver> it is up to youu
<bobweaver> What does frustration look like This is what Frustration looks like
<bobweaver> <bobweaver> no meeting ?
<bobweaver> * Cannot join #ayatana (Channel is invite only).
<bobweaver> <bobweaver> oh it is invite only
<cm-t_> when I say it is amator, it is really; sound like a kids having his first cam, but we might have a French TV things ( channel France 5 if my memory serve me  well )
 * cm-t_ looking for the link
<CrestedNewt> I'm going to have to leave in a few - wife is saying dinner is ready
<cm-t_> bobweaver: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xfon_0ZnRbg#t=42s â 42s !   please don't laff at the guy who filmed me, he was young :)  ( and about the low number of people, it is because it is the opening door)
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - you have my e-mail addr - lets try and hook up over the weekend - gtg
<bobweaver> cool will send email to you CrestedNewt
<CrestedNewt> cheers - good job BTW!! Keep the faith :D
<bobweaver> cm-t_,  this is great thanks a ton
<cm-t_> bobweaver: during the 2 days events, I had only 1 "crash" (layout issu, not "crash", but i restarted the tv)  and it was on this shoot of cam :P
<bobweaver> It is ok it is just MOCKUP code
<cm-t_> yep
<bobweaver> thanks again for passing on video
<bobweaver> nux is worthless
<bobweaver> i hate it and the people that code in  it. wont even talk to me
<bobweaver> I am going to loose it
<bobweaver> I quit
<tgm4883> jhodapp, ^
<jhodapp> tgm4883, uh oh
<jhodapp> tgm4883, sigh, he'll be back
#ubuntu-tv 2012-12-02
<bobweaver> HAHA 18 over 30 I will take those odds
<bobweaver> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cShYbLkhBc
<bobweaver> we all need control
<bobweaver> :)
<bobweaver> er I guess I real feel like orange rinda and ruber bands
<bobweaver> I mean spoted stripers
<bobweaver> but he looks like dave
<bobweaver> http://gamehendge.org/files/The_Man_Who_Stepped_Into_Yesterday.mp3
<bobweaver> tgm4883  I dont know if I  can do this much more (it is driving me to miss daisy) I mean crazy
<bobweaver> I am in tears and there is nothing that I can do abput it
<bobweaver> I am learning this stuff but it is not for me
<bobweaver> Like I think that I am experincing a breakdown because of all this
<bobweaver> I guess I will "buck" up to plate But TBH I am not happy well doing this
<bobweaver> in fact
<bobweaver> I am in tears
<bobweaver> they runied everything with drop of QT
<bobweaver> we are only ones know beacuse of it
<bobweaver> its funny when you think of I my g-friend wated Ubuntu tv be fore eme and asked me about it now ......
<bobweaver> canonical has droped this and are expecting us to do for free
<bobweaver> I am going loopie over project and have to much at stake
<bobweaver> no more for me I day no  more for at leasr 2 months
<bobweaver> I am in tears and going insane because of it
<bobweaver> I M letting it drive me unstead of me driviing any thing
<bobweaver> I am worthless
