#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-11
<paul_h1> TheMuso: any idea of the timescales we're talking about? I mean in terms of getting everything ready for binux to be proposed as an official variant of ubuntu and then using it to pilot changes that could then be incorporated into the main ubuntu cd?
<TheMuso> paul_h1: It will never be an official variant of Ubuntu as such, its going to be a testing ground for Ubuntu accessibility. We will use the Ubuntu archive + a PPA to build disks.
<dutchie> ping AlanBell and Pendulum re: persona
<paul_h1> TheMuso: oh okay. so same question really. any idea as to when we can start doing this?  I do realise it's something you do when you've got time :) just wondering if you have any idea on roughly how long it's gonna take :)
<TheMuso> paul_h1: No ETA, its done when its done.
<Pendulum> dutchie: heya
<dutchie> Pendulum: any news on them?
<Pendulum> dutchie: I failed to get anything done :-/
<dutchie> :(
<dutchie> i did mine
<Pendulum> I'm aiming for by the end of this week
<Pendulum> and I think AlanBell did his
<Pendulum> I've got 2 long carrides in the next 3 days so I'm going to try to work on them from the car and then stick them in the etherpad docs when I'm online
<dutchie> cool#
<AlanBell> Pendulum: no, I started it, but didn't get far
<AlanBell> will be doing more work on it over the next week or so
<AlanBell> 12:10 < gord> there is no accessibility stuff in unity for this release, it sucks, we know :( just didn't have anyone on staff to do it. we are hiring people to take  care of that for 11.04 i think though
<Pendulum> missing in more than just Unity. I'm really not thrilled about the whole "can't use Orca to install Maverick" thing
<Pendulum> :-/
<AlanBell> yeah, but I don't know who to poke about that one!
<Pendulum> no idea
<Pendulum> I'm not even sure if there's been a bug filed on it yet
<AlanBell> well I guess I should do another blog post comparing the Lucid install (which sucks) to the Maverick install (which is basically impossible)
<Pendulum> go for it :-)
<Pendulum> I suppose the good news is that it's better on the LTS?
<AlanBell> kind of
<Pendulum> s/better/not completely broken
<AlanBell> guess it needs an accessible webkit
<AlanBell> although I can see an argument for a whole separate installer for audio
<AlanBell> must try vinux too
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> what I think would be nice is if you start the live CD without a monitor plugged in it just does an audio install
<AlanBell> which would work well for the headless server in a rack scenario
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> okay, I'm out until probably Wednesday night or Thursday. I hope everyone has a good week!
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-12
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Problem with that is X. I have heard of many reports where people try to boot headless/no monitor connected, and X refuses to load due to no monitor.
<JanC> X should start if you make it use the 'dummy' video driver I assume
<paul_h1> hard to make it do that if you've got no monitor
<JanC> I guess it could be a fallback option if X refuses to start?  although, that would probably not be a good idea for most use cases...  ;)
<JanC> maybe a boot option
<paul_h1> I don't know the origin of this thread. my point is that as someone who can't see: it's hard to know when to specify boot options when the CD is booting
<TheMuso> paul_h1: AlanBell suggested that if you start the live CD without a monitor, an audio/screen reader instal is run by default...
<paul_h1> TheMuso: what? since when?
<TheMuso> AlanBell: It was just a suggestion.
<TheMuso> paul_h1: ^^ sorry meant you
<paul_h1> TheMuso: oh with you...
<Pendulum> AlanBell: poke
<AlanBell> hi Pendulum 
<Pendulum> you haven't done your Maverick attempt, right?
<AlanBell> no, not yet
<Pendulum> Fudge: AlanBell is the person who wrote the wonderful ranty Lucid install guide ;-)
<nigelb> haha
<AlanBell> ranty!!
<Pendulum> AlanBell: It was a polite rant
<AlanBell> I expect the Maverick one will be tbh
<AlanBell> hi Fudge o/
<Fudge> hi AlanBell  it was a good read mate, nice post
<Fudge> im trying to do the accessible install now but the steps have changed
<Fudge> well, i think they have
<AlanBell> yes, I think the installer has changed quite a bit
<AlanBell> I was planning to do a keystroke by keystroke guide to the installer sometime soon
<Fudge> any idea where i could find out whats changed?
<AlanBell> didn't want to start it until the final CD was released
<Fudge> you are sighted?
<AlanBell> yes, I am
<Fudge> ah that would be very helpful
<Fudge> uve grabbed the iso already>
<AlanBell> I have the final ISO
<AlanBell> I will probably go through it tomorrow evening I think
<Fudge> dont guess u have some time now to take a squiz at it
<Fudge> ah, understood
<Fudge> its approaching 0pm here 
<Fudge> 9
<AlanBell> I need to rearrange some hard disks in computers first
<AlanBell> actually I will have a runthrough in a virtual machine before I try it on real hardware
<AlanBell> oh wow, that is rubbish
<AlanBell> I will have to rethink how to do this blog post
<Pendulum> AlanBell: that bad?
<AlanBell> yeah
<Pendulum> :(
<AlanBell> I think I may do a video of it with audio if I can
<AlanBell> do a screencast of the install in a vm
<Pendulum> :)
<AlanBell> and do the same with Lucid to compare the two
<Pendulum> let me know if you want me to do captions. I should be typing-good soonish
<AlanBell> getting some silver rings?
<Pendulum> I get fitted on Friday!
<AlanBell> yay
<AlanBell> pics plz :)
<Pendulum> then it depends on the insurance fight for how quickly it happens
<AlanBell> I am working on getting http://moinmo.in/ThemeMarket/SimpleMente installed on wiki.ubuntu.com
<AlanBell> it is a moin wiki theme with improved support for screenreaders
<AlanBell> might not be perfect, but it seems to be a sound base for improving upon
<charlie-tca> :-)
<AlanBell> good luck with the openweek session charlie-tca, I will miss it live, but will catch the logs
<charlie-tca> Thanks. I will do my best
<Fudge> hi all
<Fudge> AlanBell  how bad is it loL
<AlanBell> hi Fudge, it is totally silent :(
<AlanBell> absolutely no way I could figure it out without seeing it
<Fudge> are the accessibility steps still in the installer?
<AlanBell> kind of
<Fudge> i tried to boot it normally last night by just letting it load and it still didnt come to the party
<Fudge> as when you setup orca i assume tha tyou can still restart gnome to enable the accessibility profile
<AlanBell> you press space after a bit, then F5 then down 3 times (I think it is 3)
<Fudge> so u dont have to choose a language now?
<AlanBell> then it boots with orca, but orca can't see the installer dialog or any contents
<AlanBell> oh, sorry, yes the language question first
<Fudge> so i was trying to push the number 3 and enter
<AlanBell> one sec, let me fire up the VM again
<Fudge> no worries
<Fudge> i wish i could just ssh -X to the box once installing ssh to the live cd and install over an X session 
<Fudge> but when ever ive tried things like that orca says inaccessible
<AlanBell> ok, turn on, hit space
<AlanBell> asking me for language so I hit return to select English
<AlanBell> F5 for accessibility menu
<AlanBell> down 3 times for Screen Reader
<AlanBell> enter again to try Ubuntu without installing (it would be down+enter to go to the installer rather than to the desktop)
<AlanBell> jungle drums
<AlanBell> welcome to Orca
<Fudge> ok im at that step
<AlanBell> (which I think should be welcome to Ubuntu)
<Fudge> yes true
<Fudge> your post was interesting from a headless install
<AlanBell> one thing I want to do is show how accessible technology is dead handy for everyone
<Fudge> i think orca at gdm login is really good for small children
<AlanBell> and get more people interested in it, and fixing bugs with it
<paul_h1> AlanBell: Orca is saying that it is starting. it isn't just Ubuntu's screen reader
<AlanBell> excellent point
<Fudge> see my cd has stopped spinning now with no desktop
<AlanBell> paul_h1: yes, I understand that, I just think on first boot of the live CD it should read out some useful text, starting with welcome to Ubuntu
<AlanBell> then explain what Orca is
<AlanBell> Fudge: you have a monitor plugged in?
<Fudge> you said arrow down three times, as in to the fourth option?
<Fudge> yes
<AlanBell> correct
<Fudge> although this box works headless with no X issues anyhow
<AlanBell> the options are: None, High Contrast, Magnifier, Screen Reader, Braille Terminal, Keyboard Modifiers, On-Screen Keyboard
<Fudge> i dont understand why none needs to be there
<AlanBell> quite how you are supposed to select the On-Screen Keyboard option without actually having a real keyboard is a mystery
<Fudge> loL
<Fudge> mouse?
<AlanBell> no, you can't use a mouse at this point of the installer
<Fudge> once hitting space i see a bright screen with a light coloured background
<AlanBell> is that right at the start of the process?
<Fudge> yes
<AlanBell> you might be looking at the list of languages then
<AlanBell> it is getting late here, I am going to have to leave it for tonight
<AlanBell> night all o/
<Fudge> thanks mate
<Fudge> its morning here lol
<AlanBell> Fudge: what country are you in?
<Fudge> australia
<Fudge> state of tasmania
<AlanBell> nice
<dutchie> i know people from tasmania!
 * AlanBell is in the UK
<Fudge> mm i seem to be stuck in some prompt where arrowing around produces a pc speaker beep
<Fudge> ah 10 hours ahead
<Fudge> blind ppl dutchie ?
<dutchie> Fudge: no, rowing people
<Fudge> an X of mine used to row
<Fudge> alot of nice ppl in volved in the sport
<dutchie> (not that the things are mutually exclusive)
 * dutchie goes back to calculus
<Fudge> joy :p
<AlanBell> Fudge: you could ask in #ubuntu-au for someone to walk through the install with you
<dutchie> well, i did ask for it by studying maths at university
<Fudge> wow dutchie 
<Fudge> AlanBell  ill prob wait for a mate to come round but thanks for suggestion
<paul_h1> Fudge: which version of ubuntu are you trying to install? if it's Maverick you have no chance if you rely on Orca speech. I recommend you install Lucid then do a distro upgrade to Maverick
<Fudge> i did try that nad it failed miserably lol
<Fudge> its no biggy im just trying to take a peak at the new changes in it since alpha3 when i used it for a bit on my cli box
<TheMuso> I don't think "welcome to..." is what should be said. "Orca is ready" is beter.
<TheMuso> better
<Fudge> howdy
<paul_h1> TheMuso: probably, but it's splitting hairs a bit...
<TheMuso> How so?
<paul_h1> well I just mean that 'orca is ready' or 'welcome to orca' ... doesn't really matter. so long as you know it's running
<Fudge> i think orca shoudl automatically unmute volume control if its muted
<TheMuso> Fudge: No, orca should not touch volume at all, period.
<TheMuso> paul_h1: Right, but welcome to orca sounds weird, contextually.
<TheMuso> To me anyway.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: sure, I agree. just saying it's not that important + agree totally on volume issue
<TheMuso> Yeah I see your point.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-13
<paul_h1> TheMuso: does the accessibility profile do anything essential to enable orca to read apps that are running as root?
<TheMuso> paul_h1: It does as much as can be done yes. It adds some variables to sudoers that need to be passed through to the root session to enable orca/at-spi to listen to application activity as the root user.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: thought it might. I did an install but didn't manage to get the a11y profile activated on the CD so I can't access root apps on the installed system. could you tell me what the additional lines to sudoers are please?
<TheMuso> paul_h1: You running lucid or maverick?
<TheMuso> If so, then you want to add the following lines to /etc/sudoers.d/a11y-sudo
<paul_h1> TheMuso: just upgraded to Maverick
<TheMuso> # TO allow accessibility in GTK to work with sudo.
<TheMuso> Defaults        env_keep = "ORBIT_SOCKETDIR XDG_SESSION_COOKIE GTK_MODULES"
<TheMuso> The file needs to be set with permissions 0440
<TheMuso> I suggest using "sudo -i" to get to a root shell, and working in the root shell, so you don't break anything during the process.
<TheMuso> paul_h1: Hope all that makes sense.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: giving it a go now
<TheMuso> You need to make sure you create the file and set permissions on the file in one sudo session, otherwise sudo will break and you won't be able to use it. You will have to reboot in recovery mode to fix it.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: thank you :) working now
<TheMuso> Great.
<paul_h1> TheMuso: nice to see that update-manager isn't using gksu anymore
<TheMuso> Yeah.
<Fudge> alot of ppl failing upgrades to maverick
<davidb_> monkeygoat
<davidb_> err wrong number
<nigelb> that was interesting
<nigelb> Heya folks, charlie-tca is talking about accessiblity in Ubuntu in #ubuntu-classroom as part of UOW.  Those interested can join #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-14
<nigelb> charlie-tca: ping ping, all set for second session? :)
<charlie-tca> heh, sure
<charlie-tca> I think it went pretty good, myself
<nigelb> heh 
<nigelb> I was happy to see lots of curiosity
<charlie-tca> yes, we need that to get people thinking about accessibility
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: so it went well?
<charlie-tca> Yes, I believe it did
<Pendulum> sorry I couldn't be there, I was in a car in the middle of a 6 hr drive :(
<charlie-tca> No problem
<Pendulum> once I'm a bit more settled back here, I do plan on reading the logs :)
<charlie-tca> We had a lot of people, and a few questions
<Pendulum> awesome :)
<charlie-tca> I mostly used your session from userdays, with a few things of my own thrown in
<Pendulum> cool
<Pendulum> and I'm glad my session was useful
<Pendulum> I may have erm, possible, maybe, definitely, written it on the day ;-)
<charlie-tca> It is always helpful to have some material to work with.
<charlie-tca> Today is more difficult. It is the first session I will do as xubuntu project lead
<Pendulum> *nods*
<nigelb> charlie-tca: oh, you're xubuntu lead? I didn't know!
<charlie-tca> heh, just as an interim lead, probably for two years
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: that doesn't sound very interim to me
<charlie-tca> We have different definitions ?
<Pendulum> fair enough :)
<charlie-tca> I have to figure out how to get myself approved, since we kind of left that out when we re-organized three years ago
<charlie-tca> We wrote out everything except how to approve the new project lead every two years
<Pendulum> oh dear
<charlie-tca> A small mistake? and I was involved in that, too. We did realize it, neither did CC
<charlie-tca> Rather, did not realize
<nigelb> heh
<Pendulum> video on website accessibility: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awldEoQ-aNQ
<Pendulum> UK-based, but still kinda cool
 * AlanBell ponders what Pendulum just said
<Pendulum> AlanBell: just meaning that everyone in it is British and some of the discussion may only really apply in places in the UK
<Pendulum> although it's generally decent
<AlanBell> watching it now
 * AlanBell <- UK based, but still kinda cool
<Pendulum> AlanBell: you're generally cool :P
<Pendulum> now if only I could convince Flash that she wants to help us ;-)
<Pendulum> ooh, there's also a video on accessible transport/travel :)
<charlie-tca> that is a really good video
<AlanBell> Pendulum: you know her?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: yep :)
<Pendulum> AlanBell: she's the small world-story with keybuk and sladen :)
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: did you blog about world accessibility day today?
<Pendulum> today is world accessibility today?
<charlie-tca> Um, I think so
<charlie-tca> I caught a reference to it yesterday. 
<Pendulum> ah, that seems to be what World Standards Day is
<Pendulum> I hadn't put together that it was specific to accessibility standards
<charlie-tca> I think it is very confusing for everybody
<Pendulum> I'd kinda worry that I'd end up ranting
<charlie-tca> How do you publicize a day that is made confusing?
<Pendulum> i dunno
<Pendulum> but, yeah
<Pendulum> my concern is that I'd end up talking about the fact that Ubuntu/Canonical seem to ignore things like web standards
<AlanBell> The 41st World Standard Day on Oct. 14, 2010 will be celebrated under the theme: âStandards make the world accessible for all.
<AlanBell> so there have been 40 previous days we never heard of either
<charlie-tca> Maybe we did not really care about them?
<Pendulum> heh
<Pendulum> I only heard about this because of Flash
<charlie-tca> I know. I tried not to say that yesterday
<Pendulum> heh
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> it would be bad of me to do a question in ask sabdfl about "Today is World Standards Day with a focus this year on Accessibility, are there any plans to improve accessibility in Ubuntu and related things such as the website up to accessibility standards?"
<AlanBell> nope, perfectly good question
<charlie-tca> I think that would be a great question
<Pendulum> nigelb: ^^
<Pendulum> yeah, but I don't want to piss people off
<nigelb> go for it
<Pendulum> that's kinda a leading question
<AlanBell> Pendulum: do it
<charlie-tca> I will ask it, if you want
<nigelb> Just do it (TM)
<Pendulum> and I'm worried it'd reflect badly on me
<AlanBell> it won't
<AlanBell> perfectly good question, and one that should be asked by you as a leader of the team
<charlie-tca> +1
<charlie-tca> Team lead sometimes has to ask the difficult questions
<charlie-tca> And, it is a question all of us would like to know the answer to. It is not like it is a one person desire
<charlie-tca> or wish or "lets raise some hell" type question
<AlanBell> I have to go out now to get the kids from school, Pendulum, please ask that question o/
<Pendulum> okay, okay :P
<charlie-tca> I'll be waiting for it. 
<nigelb> ok, it has started
<Pendulum> question has been asked, we'll see if it gets answered
<Pendulum> I kinda had to dump the question now because i have to leave soon
<charlie-tca> That's the only way to get them in anyway.
<nigelb> that's good news, from mark
<Pendulum> well, it's kinda required
<Pendulum> unity doesn't work with Orca
<charlie-tca> What? it is touchpad, not accessibility
<nigelb> oh, yuck
<charlie-tca> It's just more rhetoric
<charlie-tca> "we support it, as long as it doesn't get in the way"
<Pendulum> webkit problem, i think
<charlie-tca> But if we could get mark pushing it as hard as unity or ayatana, we would have it working
 * charlie-tca shuts up and hides again
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: what do you think I'm hoping for? ;-)
<charlie-tca> I know, just frustrated, I guess.
<charlie-tca> they will push touchpad, and if it happens to help with accessibility, it's called "We did IT! everyone can use this, regardless of disablitiy"
<nigelb> charlie-tca: heh
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: how'd it go?
<charlie-tca> not bad. Not as good as I hoped, though. 
<charlie-tca> audience doesn't seem to be there, maybe? Or I was not getting their interest this time.
<nigelb> dang, I stepped out from work -> home just when you started
<nigelb> need to look at logs
<charlie-tca> I think I was boring today
<AlanBell> evening
<AlanBell> so not a spectacular answer from Mark, but not a disaster either
<dutchie> AlanBell: eh?
<AlanBell> dutchie: in the openweek session
<dutchie> yeah, just read back
<Pendulum> it felt a bit PR-y to me, but was honestly more involved than I expected
<AlanBell> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/10/14/%23ubuntu-classroom.html#t15:10
<AlanBell> it would be good to get more bugs filed against the website for accessibility
<AlanBell> not sure there are enough against the new design
<AlanBell> rant posted, off to bed now o/
<AlanBell> if any web designers turn up, do be nice to them :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-15
<charlie-tca> If that link in the emails is real for a new wiki design, it really falls flat on accessibility for the visually impaired. If this an example of Canonical helping us, we better run fast!
<nigelb> AlanBell: neat rant
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: maybe e-mail back and then start filing bugs?
<nigelb> clearly you're fighting with a designer "I don't like fluid layouts" he says
<charlie-tca> What about text that is visible. Does he hate that too?
<charlie-tca> I could not read more than half a page a day with that layout
<charlie-tca> It makes my eyes burn
<charlie-tca> and the text does not grow nicely at all. It distorts instead
<charlie-tca> Do we really want an accessibility wiki that visually impaired uses will find really hard to read?
<Pendulum> nope
<nigelb> Pendulum: I wonder if we should mail Jane about it.
<AlanBell> Pendulum: filing bugs is the place to start, as per sabdfl's response to your question
<AlanBell> I have filed bug 654643
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 654643 in ubuntu-website "low contrast text bad for low vision users (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/654643
<AlanBell> and bug 654625
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 654625 in ubuntu-website "Width is not fluid (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/654625
<AlanBell> maybe if someone could go through https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs and tag things with accessability as appropriate that would be useful
<AlanBell> and file any new bugs you think of
<AlanBell> then we can write the code and do the merge requests
<AlanBell> which will either be accepted, which is great, or not, which means we escallate the issue
<AlanBell> hmm, I can't tag things on launchpad at the moment
<AlanBell> nigelb: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/654643 trying to add an accessibility tag to this bug
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 654643 in ubuntu-website "low contrast text bad for low vision users (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,In progress]
<nigelb> AlanBell: I just added the tag
<nigelb> AlanBell: I don't have any more rights on that project than you do, so you sohuld be able to do it (is javascript enabled?)
<AlanBell> how odd, doesn't work for me in firefox or chromium
<AlanBell> on bugs.edge.launchpad.net or bugs.launchpad.net
<nigelb> that's strange.
<nigelb> are you clickin on the yellow button and waiting?
<AlanBell> click yellow button, turns instantly to an input field with light-wiki in it
<AlanBell> I add ", Accessibility" to the end of the field
<nigelb> AlanBell: then click the tick mark 
<AlanBell> click the green tick, both ticks vanish, it stays an input field
<AlanBell> doesn't go back to the blue links
<nigelb> AlanBell: hrm, strange
<nigelb> I tagged it like 4 times 
<nigelb> thansk to my very poor spelling
<nigelb> as evidenced ^^
<nigelb> :p
<AlanBell> :)
<AlanBell> I can tag other bugs
<nigelb> LOL
<AlanBell> I just tagged bug 537408
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 537408 in ubuntu-community "Ubuntu Community Support is patchy and has no recommended guidelines (affects: 1) (heat: 16)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/537408
<nigelb> that one's going to be fun
<AlanBell> ah, got it working now
<nigelb> strangely not, I wonder why it hasn't caught the eye of *cough* tabloids *cough*
<AlanBell> tags are space separated not comma separated
<nigelb> AlanBell: aha, you didn'te tell me you used comma
<AlanBell> 07:53 < AlanBell> I add ", Accessibility" to the end of the field
<AlanBell> did too!
<nigelb> Right, I should learn to read then.
<nigelb> I missed that bit.
<AlanBell> doesn't like capitals in tags either
<AlanBell> ok, been through all the bugs
<AlanBell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs?field.tag=accessibility
<AlanBell> please file new ones
<Pendulum> AlanBell: charlie is our official bug person
<AlanBell> yup
<AlanBell> and Mark Shuttleworth told us to file bugs, so it is only fair that we do so :)
<AlanBell> lots of bugs
<nigelb> yes, load 'em up
<Pendulum> should I file some bugs about the fact that there's no in-built accessibility features on the main site (no way to change contrast, etc.) and no page explaining what their accessibility options for the website are?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: has anyone responded to your e-mail?
<AlanBell> no
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I assume that was to my 2nd question?
<AlanBell> of course :)
<AlanBell> yes is the answer to your first question
<AlanBell> https://lists.canonical.com/archives/ubuntu-website/2010-October/thread.html
<AlanBell> it isn't a very active list
<Pendulum> the real question is do I file the bug as the website not complying to W3C Accessibility standards, or do I file bugs as multiple issues
<AlanBell> do both
<AlanBell> one referencing the standard, then file a separate bug for each thing that could be fixed as a unit of work
<Pendulum> of course, now this means I really need to read all the details of the standard ;-)
<AlanBell> and get Flash to help point out missing bits
<Pendulum> without charging me a consultant's fee :P
<Pendulum> (since accessible webdesign and evaluations are what she does as her job)
<AlanBell> and a career direction that would be interesting for you to explore :)
<Pendulum> well, I'd need to learn design first :P
<Pendulum> and I'm not sure it actually pays that well. I think she mostly does it because it's flexible (Flash also has EDS)
<vish> PendulumÂ¦ have you seen Â» http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lqfQi7146U ?
<Pendulum> I don't think I'm going to click that link...
<vish> hehe ;p
<vish> just not to seem out of context :
<vish>  * Pendulum is still avoiding the cake song :)
<vish> so /me tried to trick her :(
<Pendulum> vish: I'm well aware you hang out in -community-team so it was hard to not notice the timing ;)
<vish> PendulumÂ¦ yea, bad move on my part, i should have waited a day :(
<AlanBell> nigelb: how do I find out who should review this? https://code.launchpad.net/~alanbell/dasher/bugfix-lp-579181/+merge/37528
<AlanBell> the dasher conversation is going in interesting directions
<AlanBell> the dasher setup in launchpad is a bit of a mess, it imports from an obsolete SVN gnome repository, but Ubuntu gets packages from Debian
<AlanBell> nobody is looking after the bugs reported, nobody is merging stuff
<AlanBell> so we are going to discuss the adopt an upstream stuff with jcastro in -motu shortly
<Pendulum> AlanBell: has discoussion started yet?
<AlanBell> oh yes
<AlanBell> gnome bug 632226
<ubot2> Gnome bug 632226 in core "Dasher is hard to use to operate IRC clients such as irssi" [Normal,Unconfirmed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=632226
<Pendulum> AlanBell: yeah, I joined channel so I feel like I'm sorta figuring out what's happening
<charlie-tca> You will have to let me know what happened. I got too many things going on at once again
<AlanBell> the conversation is continuing upstream with the core developers from Cambridge who develop on the gnome code for Dasher
<charlie-tca> Then there is hope!
<AlanBell> yes, and hope for the wider collection of bugs, not just this one
<AlanBell> the developers there actually appear to be fairly active
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs?field.tag=accessibility
<charlie-tca> Wow
<AlanBell> can you have a flick through that lot at some point and file bugs for any other stuff you encounter on the websites
<charlie-tca> I will look them over and add any others I fine?
<dutchie> that is fairly impressive
<charlie-tca> s/fine/find
<AlanBell> I went through the existing bugs and tagged stuff with accessibility if it looked like an issue (contrast, size etc)
<charlie-tca> Oh, the right answer is yes
<AlanBell> nice stuff about website bugs is fixing them is within my capability, I can code it, do merge requests then get cross if they are rejected :)
<AlanBell> with applications written in C that are segfaulting I get stuck quickly!
<charlie-tca> Great! I'll have a close look today. thank you
<charlie-tca> I did hold off cussing them out for the new website design.
<charlie-tca> Not sure I can word it effectively yet
<Pendulum> maco: you and I really need to start doing that dasher patching we talked about doing at some point ;-)
<AlanBell> totally agree, but the bugs need to be filed before we can get cross about them
<Pendulum> yeah
 * Pendulum goes off to get something that will pull her head off her neck ;-)
<Pendulum> catch y'all later!
<AlanBell> charlie-tca: if you see any bugs in the list marked new please feel free to confirm them
<charlie-tca> I will. I will go through each one to try and confirm as many as possible.
<AlanBell> also have a look at http://ubuntu-news.org/
<AlanBell> http://www.ubuntu.com/
<AlanBell> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/
<AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/
<AlanBell> http://summit.ubuntu.com/ (although I fully expect the schedule to be a disaster, the new ical feeds are a good thing)
<Pendulum> yeah
<Pendulum> brb. upgrading :)
<charlie-tca> At least the text shows up on those. On that new wiki template from yesterday, it didn't
<charlie-tca> Is http://www.ubuntu.com/ using iframes? The text in the three boxes across the page does not increase with the rest
<charlie-tca> or maybe it just starts really small?
<AlanBell> works for me in firefox and chromium
<AlanBell> and no, not iframes
<charlie-tca> Whatever they used, the text stays small
<charlie-tca> The rest work, except the map grows really big and wide. But, overall, the design works okay
<charlie-tca> They took the attachments down that were in yesterdays message
<AlanBell> oh, yes, there was a mail about that
<AlanBell> "Hi, there has been a mis-understanding. I was under the impression that this guideline was finalized but I have just been told it is not ready for you to implement."
<AlanBell> bit of an oops there!
<charlie-tca> thank goodness. It doesn't really seem usable to me.
<charlie-tca> Hoping it was an old draft, and not really the new design
<AlanBell> well I am glad I got my rant in at that point, maybe it will come back better
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-10-16
<nigelb> AlanBell: I liked the other nick better :p
<AlanBell> is there a bug filed for the accessible installer in Maverick?
 * AlanBell is finding out about packaging recipes and daily builds https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~alanbell/+recipe/daily-dash-of-dasher
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-10
<charlie-tca> Anyone want to do an UbuntuOpenWeek session on accessibility? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<AlanBell> I would like there to be one!
<maco> the thing where it repeats itself might be fixed now
<maco> i didnt get a chance to test this weekend
<maco> but cjwatson and i hunted a bit on friday, and the result was "oh hey ev may have fixed this yesterday"
<maco> vmware on this machine is cranky about doing sound though, so if either of you get through a screenreader install, lemme know if it does the right thing on radio buttons
<maco> it was doing "replace ubuntu with ubuntu. replace windows with ubuntu. checkbox not checked" for example. shouldve only said the first sentence
<AlanBell> nice, I will test this later
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-11
<charlie-tca> Any one volunteer to lead an accessibility session for Open Week yet?
<maco> which one is open week again?
<apinheiro> charlie-tca, where is UDS this year?
<apinheiro> Florida?
<maco> yes
<maco> orlando, same hotel as last year
<charlie-tca> Orlando
<charlie-tca> OpenWeek is next week, for users.
<charlie-tca> maco: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<maco> im not sure what one would say in an open week session
<maco> a newbie-developer one sure... "fill in the stuff in glade, gosh darnit"
<Pendulum> it seems those people UDSing will now have to put up with me as well ;-)
<charlie-tca> You coming to Orlando?
<Pendulum> yes
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> :)
<charlie-tca> I think they are really tired of hearing me complain about the a11y stuff now 
<Pendulum> haha
<charlie-tca> You haven't complained in a bit, so there's hope again!
<Pendulum> btw, I'm having an a11y call with jono next week
<Pendulum> (Can you tell I'm feeling better now? ;-) )
<charlie-tca> good. I am really frustrated that we can not have a11y working completely in Oneiric, but there is ppa that has it all working
<charlie-tca> maco: I think for users it should be more about what is available, what works, what we want to have working
<charlie-tca> and a bit of what we want to see for the next release is always good :)
<charlie-tca> I am going to grab the Friday at 15:00 UTC slot for us, and I will lead the session. Anyone want to help/co-lead/assist?
<AlanBell> yeah
<charlie-tca> Great!
<AlanBell> just done a screencast of the installer, encoding now
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-12
<AlanBell> http://blip.tv/alan-bells-ubuntu-stuff/ubuntu-11-10-eyes-free-install-5636087
<AlanBell> does that look OK?
<AlanBell> and sound OK more importantly
<frafu> TheMuso: Hi, Could you please help with this? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/onboard/+bug/872374/comments/1
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 872374 in onboard "Feature Freeze exception request: new version with GI, gsettings,..." [High,New]
<AlanBell> frafu: is that to land on the disk tomorrow?
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: we would prefer it be a 0day SRU
<AlanBell> never mind, reading the comments now
<charlie-tca> That way, it will go in as soon as installs are finished, when updates are run
<AlanBell> yeah, I am just concerned about the release note article
<frafu> AlanBell: According to the reply by Kate Stewart in the thread, I think not; if I get it right. 
<AlanBell> well not "concerned" in a bad way, just want to know whether to mention it
<charlie-tca> If we can't make it a 0day, I would think mentioning it is a good thing, since it will get in, and it does fix several bugs
<frafu> Should I change the title of the bug to Oneiric-Proposed? If so, should I also delete the debian source I attached to the thread as it has the feature freeze sentence next to the bug number in the debian/changelog?
<AlanBell> skaet: ^^
<charlie-tca> Isn't magnify broken in Unity now?
<maco> the dock doesnt zoom, is all ive seen said on the ml
<charlie-tca> Oh, not so bad then
<AlanBell> compiz zoom works on the non-unity bits
<AlanBell> I think some of the other zoom/mag things might be broken
<AlanBell> going to get the release notes blog post pretty much done in the next 4 hours or so
<charlie-tca> Great. Also got accessibility mentioned in the final release notes...
<charlie-tca> Kate is taking care of us
<skaet> AlanBell,  release notes should now be pointing to where your blog is. 
<skaet> (or will be rather ;) ) let me know if the location changes.
<AlanBell> thanks skaet, the location will be right
<TheMuso> smspillaz knows what needs fixing in COmpiz/Unity to make sure the launcher and panel get included in magnification, so we need to make sure it happens for P.
<TheMuso> I'll put it in my P notes.
<AlanBell> great
<AlanBell> I think the trick will be to do that, whilst not also including the launcher in the zoom out for the workspace switcher
<TheMuso> Yeah.
<AlanBell> just done a longer video on using Unity with orca
<AlanBell> with quite a few fails in it
<TheMuso> Unity 2d or 3d?
<AlanBell> 2d
<AlanBell> it stopped reading application button names for a bit
<AlanBell> the panel indicators are mostly broken
<TheMuso> How so?
<AlanBell> doesn't read out the indicator name for everything but the messaging indicator
<AlanBell> calendar traps you in the indicator
<AlanBell> menu items are all read out as tickboxes when they are not
<AlanBell> volume control isn't keyboard adjustable even though it can get focus (and doesn't tell you that you are on it)
<AlanBell> http://blip.tv/alan-bells-ubuntu-stuff/using-ubuntu-11-10-with-orca-5638054
<AlanBell> oh, video isn't ready yet, blip is still encoding it
<AlanBell> just done a video of onboard and found a massive fail in the scanning layout
<AlanBell> the return key just presses "e"
<TheMuso> Oh yeah the indicator stuff is known, and I plan to fix that for P.
<TheMuso> Same with the menus all being check items, even though they aren't.
<TheMuso> And yeah, the volume control used to be changeable with arrow keybs, but it seems this was broken.
<AlanBell> banshee does some horrible lockups
<AlanBell> if you use the sound indicator to do left or right track on a clean install when there are no tracks then it goes into a 100% processor hog mode which throws my laptop into thermal shutdown
<AlanBell> right, I think that is all the videos done, and screenshots taken
<AlanBell> will make http://pad.ubuntu.com/oneirica11y into a wordpress page with links and embedded stuff tomorrow
<AlanBell> feel free to add/remove/edit stuff on there
<AlanBell> I am going to add a bit on the themes and the accessibilty settings dialog with large fonts, dwell click etc
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-13
<TheMuso> Yeah mono and a11y do not mix too well.
<TheMuso> I wish we didn't rely on mono at all.
<AlanBell> I don't think that had anything to do with mono+a11y as a combination, banshee just crashes hard when it crashes
<AlanBell> release notes article pretty much done
<AlanBell> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/?p=128&shareadraft=4e96a83139805
<AlanBell> Pendulum: published and on the planet
<Pendulum> :)
<Pendulum> should e-mail to our list and probably post to forums, too
<Pendulum> do you want to do one and I'll do the other
<Pendulum> ?
<AlanBell> I have to pop out now
<AlanBell> you get to claim the credit for all of it :)
<Pendulum> hah
 * Pendulum copies Ubuntu News on the e-mail
<Pendulum> If anyone wants to RT http://twitter.com/#!/colona13/status/124485268643381250
<webczat> Hello.
<webczat> Are there many serious bugs I could find in the new ubuntu 11.10 regarding accessibility?
<webczat> I mean I heart about some thunderbird crashing bugs, some gedit/etc bugs...
<maco> webczat: the release notes are on ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com
 * webczat sees
<webczat> Why unyty3d is not accessible?
<webczat> s/unity
<webczat> Also, the inaccessibility of lightdm is a problem...
<webczat> Is this a big problem if you have multiple accounts?
<apinheiro> webczat, unity3d accessibility support for orca is work in progress
<apinheiro> I was not able to finish the work before feature freeze
<apinheiro> so it was not included
<apinheiro> I created a ppa that include those branches:
<apinheiro> https://launchpad.net/~apinheiro/+archive/unity-extra-a11y
<webczat> yeah. what about the login manager?
<apinheiro> webczat, sorry, I'm not a lightdm developer,  but I think that TheMuso were talking with them
<apinheiro> not sure if gdm is an option anyway
<webczat> the main problem is that if someone begins with linux, it'll seem somewhat strange that the login manager and unity 3d doesn't talk. is it required that we wait for all of this until ubuntu 12.04?
<apinheiro> webczat, afaik, gdm is accessible
<apinheiro> or was accessible at least, if it is not accessible now it is a regression
<webczat> gdm is. but it isn't the default, unless I saw something wrong...
<apinheiro> webczat, as I said, AFAIK, lightdm developers were working on a11y
<apinheiro> so try to ask them
<webczat> hmm where?
<webczat> I mean is there any irc method of asking them?
<webczat> also, which is the default? unity 2d or unity 3d? I mean when my graphic card supports 3d but i've enabled orca.
<SeaJay> According to Alan's release notes, if you enable Orca during the install then the default desktop will be Unity 2D.
<webczat> mhm
<SeaJay> Well, that's how I read http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/10/13/oneiric-ocelot/.
<webczat> Give me the exact part of the documnent that says this. I have problems with reading this, I go down using down arrows, then I hear "grayed" and it jumps to the top, so I probably missed some parts
<webczat> SeaJay: ?
<SeaJay> Ah, OK, let me see if I can cut it and paste it in here.
<SeaJay> I saw the following on that page:
<SeaJay>  This is the first release where the default desktop environment for the accessibility install profiles is Unity 2D, this does change the screen layout for everyone, including screen reader users, ....
<SeaJay> I think there's more elsewhere on the page, so let me keep looking.
<webczat> oh. but what do you do if someone installed the system without an accessibility profile? I heart the login screen is not accessible yet/orca doesn't start.
<webczat> and if unity3d is the default for standard profiles...
<maco> you might need help getting it setup then :-/
<SeaJay> I found more on this, but I'm having trouble cutting and pasting it. Give me a second.
<maco> AlanBell: did you see the email on the list a moment ago?
<webczat> maco: yeah, I know. but does this orca not starting thing mean that it doesn't start when it's directed to start, or it doesn't have some options set that I can set?
<webczat> I mean this at lightdm screen
<webczat> I'm asking so many questions because I'm currently somewhat... afraid of installing 11.10.
<maco> im not sure. i havent tried using it yet :-/
<maco> TheMuso: you around?
<maco> well and also i dont normally use a screen reader. i could try an install in a vm...
<webczat> mhm
<maco> AlanBell & TheMuso seem most likely to know the answer, webczat
 * webczat should wait for them
<webczat> but it's 20:36 here
<webczat> so it depends on their timezone/worktime/etc
<maco> AlanBell is a brit. TheMuso is an aussie
<webczat> Yeah.
<SeaJay> Sorry, it took so long. Here's what else it says on that article:
<SeaJay> Orca canât read what is going on with Unity3d. By  default if you install using the screen reader you will boot into the  2d desktop. At present the 3d desktop is not accessible, however there  is code to make this work and we expect this to be made available in a  PPA for 11.10 and be in by default in 12.04 LTS. Orca does not run during the lightdm window  manager right now, this will be fixed in an update, but as of release  the log
<SeaJay> BTW, I've tried to install this once into VMware Player, but no sound at all yet, but I need to spend a bit more time with it.
<maco> the ppa is here: <apinheiro> https://launchpad.net/~apinheiro/+archive/unity-extra-a11y
<webczat> apinheiro told me about the ppa.
 * AlanBell is in a pub
<webczat> AlanBell: I need some info about lightdm accessibility.
<SeaJay> Hmm, I'm trying to install 11.10 into a VMware Player virtual machine, but it looks like VMware Player is using Easy Install, so I'm wondering if I'm missing the opportunity to install with the accessibility profile.
<SeaJay> I don't see how to install Ubuntu without using Easy Install.
<SeaJay> Hmm, I guess I need to scrounge around the VMware Player documentation a bit.
<webczat> SeaJay: you need to virtually insert the iso image.
<SeaJay> webczat: In the first screen of the new VM wizzard, I select install from ISO and then point it at the Ubuntu 11.10 ISO file I've downloaded.
<SeaJay> webczat: Are you saying I should select install later or install from CD and then somehow point the virtual CD to the ISO image?
<webczat> SeaJay: yeah, install later
<TheMuso> Thanks for the wonderful release notes guys.
<SeaJay> webczat: Thanks for the tip! I've got Oneric installing now in my VM. I had to do the install later option, make sure the sound card was powered up at start up and then raise the volume of the virtual machine. Once I did that Orca came right up and I had no problems with Ubiquity, at least not so far!
<Pendulum> TheMuso: thank you for being awesome about getting stuff in to the release!
<TheMuso> Pendulum: No problem, I already have a list of things that need doing for Precise.
<TheMuso> That are screen reader related anyways.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: cool. It turns out I will be at UDS after all, btw
<Pendulum> maybe we can sit down and chat about stuff?
<maco> TheMuso: one time, agateau gave a "how to use git" lesson at uds. could you maybe give a "how to be more accessible" session at uds this time? skaet and cjwatson have both told me they want to help but dont know how any of it works. i told them i attempt to flounder through ubiquity's a11y but am also pretty clueless 
<TheMuso> Sweeet!
<Pendulum> I think AlanBell had talked to someone about having a "this is how Orca works" thing at UDS
<Pendulum> but I don't know if anything actually started to get worked on
<TheMuso> maco: I guess, I don't quite know the finer details myself, but I guess I could give an overview, because documentatino is rather scarce.
<Pendulum> (it was one of the Canonical folks who goes to some of the London LoCo things)
<maco> TheMuso: scarce and crappy :P
<TheMuso> Yeah.
<TheMuso> If most people use glade, glade has a11y options. I'll need to see what options it offers.
<maco> is replacing chunks of a UI with webkit still bad?
<maco> that might be a thing to mention if so
<maco> also how to make things tabbable, since you cant tab to the release notes on ubiquity's first page
<maco> well glade does offer that, but maybe hinting that it might be important for links to be able to have focus so people can do that...
<Pendulum> does anyone know if there is a general bug about the Compiz issues with the launcher?
<Pendulum> I know we've had people talk about it with regards to the magnifier
<Pendulum> but talking to joanie last week, she said they'd established that it was all compiz plug-ins, not specific to a11y plug-ins
<TheMuso> Ah I don't know how to do that.
<TheMuso> the tab stuff
<Pendulum> and I'm planning on taking that one up with the Unity team this cycle ;-)
<TheMuso> As for Webkit, well webkit is getting more accessible all the time, to the point where if the webkit widget has caret browsing enabled, you should be able to cursor through the text like any text document. This was enabled for the ubiquity slide show, but doesn't work for some reason. Its on my list for P.
<maco> TheMuso: i think just being able to have focus on the label is all thats needed. its just some people decide that ALL labels should lack focus because nobody ever tabs to labels only to buttons
<TheMuso> maco: Interesting thought. A lot of GNOME dialogs that I've seen have focusable labels, so that makes sense.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-14
<TheMuso> maco: There is also making sure labels are correctly associated with text entry boxes etc .
<TheMuso> I believe glade can help with that if thats the gool in use.
<maco> yes it does
<maco> it has a "labelled by:" property for radio button and probably text boxes
<TheMuso> Ok thats good.
<maco> also probably checkboxes
<TheMuso> And hopefully also has a "label for" box for labels.
<maco> im not sure if you need to inform both widgets...
<TheMuso> In atk, I believe you can have either or, and the code I've seen checks for both.
<maco> ah ok
<maco> i was pretty sure you didnt need to do both though
<TheMuso> I am pretty sure too.
<maco> anyway, ive just been informed that there are fresh brownies across the street
<maco> i have told the brownie-baker's wife to get herself into this channel so her python skills can be put to work
<TheMuso> Pitty I am not feeling hungry, only has breakfast a couple of hours ago.
<TheMuso> s/has/had/
<SeaJay> Brownies? what street?
<SeaJay> Well, the two single guys across the street don't know anything about brownies!
<TheMuso> lol
<annalee> oh yay I spelt it right!
<maco> TheMuso: please meet annalee, my friend who knows some python and wants to help
<TheMuso> Awesome!
<annalee> hi!
<annalee> I also have brownies.
<maco> she says the word "accessibility" is not accessible to dyslexics
<maco> annalee: squishiest keyboard ever
<TheMuso> lol
<TheMuso> annalee: How familiar are you with python?
<maco> she started in may, but its her ferrealz job
<annalee> I'm a developer for a django webapp.
<TheMuso> Ok cool.
<annalee> the sum of my gui experience is identifying a bug a gui problem and running screaming, but I'm happy to learn.
<TheMuso> heh ok.
<TheMuso> Learning is good, but there is a fair amount to learn when it comes to GUI and accessibility, and I am not sure where to point you to start that process...
<TheMuso> Since documentation is lacking.
<maco> guess i could start showing her glade
<TheMuso> Yep I guess thats a start. The other area is probably how python works with GTK these days, via GObject introspection.
<maco> like me, she's a kde user though, so probably both of us should bug fregl about how to make qt do stuff
<maco> i havent tried pygi yet :-/
<TheMuso> ...which likely requires an understanding of GObject as well.
<TheMuso> But yes, glade is a start.
<maco> you have no idea how much i miss gobject when told to do normal C
<TheMuso> GObject is a minefield to learn, but once known, its great to work with.
<maco> just told annalee about "press any key when you see the accessibility icon to turn on the screenreader"
<TheMuso> Thats no longer needed.
<maco> yeah i was saying "it used to be"
<TheMuso> Not for screen reader or high contrast profiles anyway.
<maco> is there a beep now? i know theres a ctrl+s thing
<TheMuso> Yes, Control + S at the ubiquity screen.
<maco> how do you know if youre at the ubiquity screen?
<TheMuso> You should hear the drums sound.
<maco> ok
<TheMuso> bbs out for a bit.
<lea_> hello, please could you help me setup zoom working again?
<lea_> After update to 11.10 I can no longer have compiz Ezoom working
<lea_> I am visually impaired and it is very very hard to read without it
<Pendulum> unfortunately, the way Unity 3D is written, compiz plugins don't work on things like the launcher, but they should work on applications. (I'm really going to be bugging the Unity developers about this one this cycle)
<lea_> Pendulum, I tryed Ubuntu Classic desktop but it has reset everything. 
<lea_> I launched ccsm tryed redefining mouse control but it does not work
<AlanBell> hi lea_ 
<lea_> Hey Alan, nice to read you
<AlanBell> in ccsm I turned on enhanced zoom desktop
<AlanBell> and super+mousebutton4 to zoom in and button5 to zoom out
<lea_> It is checked on here
<lea_> as well Ã  the super+mouse4-5
<lea_> as
<lea_> I even tryed other shortcuts but it does not want to zoom 
<lea_> To take the figure I am now so close the screen as 2 inches
<lea_> erf
<lea_> found out compiz was not launched
<lea_> I manually launched compiz --replace
<lea_> but now the mouse pointer is gone
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/ezoom.png
<AlanBell> my ezoom page looks like that
<leagris> back
<leagris> I had to repair the following for compiz ezoom working
<leagris> reconfigure gdm as the default was reset to lightdm not working properly. Reverted to gdm
<leagris> Had to add compiz --replace to session start (was removed and not launched)
<leagris> Had to reconfigure eZoom shortcuts as it was reset to disabled and none
<leagris> Had to reconfigure mouse polling to 10ms as it was reset to 40ms and causing clunky zoom movments
<leagris> Please, tell me how/why the ubuntu accessibility team appear to have no voice in ubuntu releases to fix these real stong flaws?
<leagris> Please, tell me how these huge accessibility issues continue from versions to versions?
<leagris> Please, is the accessibility team really listening and understanding the issues raised by disabled people?
<Pendulum> leagris, unfortunately we're trying (the accessibility team), but there are issues with Canonical in terms of being able to have the resources and use them to get accessibility things fixed
<Pendulum> part of it is the 6 month release cycle
<Pendulum> and part of it is other issues
<Pendulum> unfortunately most of the people in this channel aren't developers and don't have access (or ability) to really work on these things. We're working hard to get people who can involved and working, but it's an uphill battle
<leagris> Pendulum I really touch this close and concrete
<leagris> during the years I took care of filling descriptive bug reports and providing hints
<Pendulum> leagris: I'm talking to someone at Canonical about accessibility issues next week, may I reference your problems and your comments about how you feel about the problems you're coming across?
<leagris> You'r welcome doing so Pendulum
<Pendulum> thanks
<leagris> I regularly meet a french Braille linux user group by mailinglist. They report some progress in accessibility to the install progress though
<AlanBell> leagris: I was talking to the canonical senior management team last night about accessibility and making it a priority
<leagris> Very active and helping group there CBLX
<AlanBell> there have just been so many huge changes this cycle and things were so broken through most of it
<leagris> By the way, the know little about low sight issues (mostly Braille device users)
<leagris> My needs as is, compiz eZoom does it all well to help plenty, depending it is configured and proprely setup to be fully mouse driven and having smooth mouve
<leagris> It needs <super> mouse4/5 for zoom change
<leagris> It needs 10ms mouse pollings as the default 40ms is too clunky and render things hard to follow on screen
<AlanBell> the huge problems have been getting in the way of fixing the smaller issues
<AlanBell> I think the 40ms was set up because 10ms was making it unusable on low powered netbooks
<AlanBell> I want there to be a general review of the compiz settings, so much of it just isn't set up right
<AlanBell> useful things just turned off
<leagris> AlanBell, I'm still motivated on helping sustaining you with eZoom enhancments :)
<AlanBell> yes, I have a dev box running now, compiz has been too crashy to work on!
<AlanBell> I really want to get text tracking zoom done for the LTS
<leagris> Tryed Unity
<leagris> The Unity icon ribon does not zoom or move with the whole screen
<AlanBell> yes, there is a bug about that
<AlanBell> they intend to get that working, the problem is getting zoom in to include the launcher, but not zooming out with the workplace switcher
<leagris> At least a fix was fond for the <super> modifier
<AlanBell> oh, I turned off super as the unity shortcut
<AlanBell> because I was using unity in a VM I didn't want super being grabbed by the host
<AlanBell> that might be why I didn't have much trouble setting the ezoom shortcuts
<leagris> Pendulum, would you agree sharing my email or send me a talkback about the upcoming meeting? lea dot gris at noiraude dot net
<Pendulum> leagris: I'll try. I'm not sure how much it'll be a meeting and how much it'll be my listing the current issues so that things are definitely communicated to Canonical. I asked if I could reference you because I need to get them to understand that not only are they losing users over the issue, but people are feeling like they're being led on by promises that aren't be fulfilled
<Fudge> AlanBell  new tracking added to ezoom i hear
<leagris> Pendulum, my guesses are the Accessibility team shall have a stronger voice in the release work-flow. The key question is, how?
<AlanBell> Fudge: really? where?
<leagris> There are Ubuntu variants all around. One possible solution would be an accessibility release son the Ubuntu trunk would not interfere. Healthy users hopefully for the most significant part shall not encounter problems with usability things.
<AlanBell> leagris: in the next cycle they are going to have more quality checks on stuff *before* it goes in and breaks everything
<Fudge> not sure ive got the mail now but i can hunt it up, Bill Cox mailed vinux-dev about it in the git repo for ezoom by memory
<AlanBell> and there will generally have less "breaking everything" this cycle
<AlanBell> Fudge: ok, interesting, I can't see mcuh in the git repo
<Fudge> get back to you mate
<leagris> Thinks like customized settings could be included as an option on accessibility. And current user settings shall net be reset at each release as it is now. Evry time I do a release upgrade, my settings are reset to inappropriate defaults.
<leagris> Well, geko applications like Firefox still get menu bars with black text over dark grey background. Even healthy sighted people may have trouble reading this ;D
<leagris> (Firefox, Thunderbird)
<Fudge> AlanBell  got an emai li can forward this to you m8
<Fudge> email even
<TheMuso> Oo good point. I'll add to my notes about testing that settings from Lucid are properly transfered as much as possible to Precise on upgrade.
<AlanBell> Fudge: great, alanbell@ubuntu.com
<webczat> hi
<webczat> AlanBell: ping
<AlanBell> hi webczat 
<Fudge> hi webczat , sent AlanBell 
<webczat> AlanBell: What's the status of lightdm accessibility yet?
<AlanBell> webczat: poor right now, TheMuso was looking into why orca doesn't start
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Right, and a bug has been filed.
<webczat> Is there any chance that when it will be able to start, then the livecd will be updated too?
<AlanBell> in the point release 11.10.1
<AlanBell> if one gets made
<webczat> yeah.
<TheMuso> They never do point releases for non-LTSs.
<TheMuso> As for fixing the greeter, Orca *could* be hard-coded, however thats not a clean solution.
<webczat> actually this one bug could really hurt, because you can have problems if you install ubuntu with a login screen displayed
<TheMuso> The proper solution is to start any app that has a .desktop file in /etc/xdg/autostart, once the org.gnome.desktop.a11y.applications screen-reader-enabled gsettings key is enabled.
<TheMuso> webczat: I know, but I don't know the greeter code well enough yet to patch this myself. Maybe I should make time for that next week. Hrm.
 * TheMuso digs for a bug number.
<webczat> oh yeah, but if you'll path it, then after the installation, it probably still won't go until update
<AlanBell> webczat: after installing it will boot up and will have selected the primary user
<AlanBell> so type the password and you get to the desktop
<AlanBell> then do an update and when the bug is fixed, the greeter will be accessible
<webczat> hmm, the userlist is displayed only when multiple users are in place?
<TheMuso> bug 850554
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 850554 in unity-greeter "Enabling screen reader and on-screen keyboard options from the a11y indicator do not start the application in question." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850554
<AlanBell> webczat: user list is displayed, but primary user is selected, it is up and down to select different users
<webczat> ahh, so enter, password, enter?
<AlanBell> just "password, enter"
<webczat> yeah
<webczat> also, what do you do if you have 3d drivers, you have installed ubuntu without an accessibility profile, and then you want to work with accessibility and a screenreader? I think 3d is the default.
<AlanBell> then you install the ppa with the fixes for Unity 3d
<AlanBell> applications will be accessible, just the unity dash and launcher will be silent
<apinheiro> <AlanBell> I really want to get text tracking zoom done for the LTS
<AlanBell> apinheiro has the ppa
<apinheiro> about that, some people are working on adding focus tracking on eZoom plugin
<AlanBell> apinheiro: yes, I just found out about that
<apinheiro> AFAIK, it is on alpha status right now
<AlanBell> I have the code from the git tree, just installing the dependencies to build and test
<webczat> AlanBell: I actually meant how to use unity2d then? I may not have admin on the computer at the time
<apinheiro> webczat, afaik, unity2d is also installed by default
<apinheiro> and at login
<apinheiro> you can choose which one you want to use
<apinheiro> although of course, this leads to that lightdm issue
<TheMuso> Unity-2d is pretty much the same accessibility wise, as Unity 3D with apinheiro's PPA.
<TheMuso> Although parts of the dash behave slightly differently with keyboard navigation, somethign that needs to be unified for P.
<TheMuso> I.e tab and shift tab move between apps/music etc in 3D, but you need to use the arrow keys and press enter to change between apps/music in unity 2D.
<AlanBell> webczat: tab, enter, down, down, enter, tab, password, enter
<webczat> yeah
<AlanBell> will get you in to unity 2d if default is 3d
<webczat> When this bug will be fixed, are you able to start orca yourself quickly?
<webczat> I mean starting the accessibility dialog using a keyboard without relying on your actual focus position
<AlanBell> there is a menu of things in the top panel, I don't know if there will be a shortcut, like ctrl+s to start it in the installer
<TheMuso> I think enabling the screen reader with Control + S in the greeter makes sense.
<TheMuso> As for accessing indicators, I'd like to get F10 to access that menu, just like in Unity.
<webczat> it's very bad that I need sighted assistance to run a screenreader. on unity, I can at least alt+f2 and type orca
<TheMuso> It would be good to eventually allow accessibility profiles to be turned on/off in the desktop, but working out keyboard shortcut commands that don't conflict with app shortcuts is difficult.
<Fudge> design an ubuntu keyboard
<Fudge> loL
<Fudge> would be neet
<Fudge> have a kill button for htop, a restart orca key, loL
<Fudge> how does one turn volume up or unmute in unity 
<Fudge> im gettin ready to install but usually i get muted sound first out or when a new kernel gets installed
<TheMuso> What about multimedia keys.
<TheMuso> Or go into the sound menu, and go to the preferences and do it in there.
<Fudge> TheMuso  it didnt actually boot for me so ill try again tomorrow on a decent computer
<Fudge> grub did then another screen but no further
<Fudge> this kb doesnt have multimedia keys and not  being familiar with unity i wouldnt know how to get to sound menu to unmute
<Fudge> does alt f2 run gnome-volume.control still work
<TheMuso> No.
<TheMuso> Use F10 to get to the menu bar, then arrow over to the sound menu.
<Fudge> how many times
<Fudge> guessing to the right also
<TheMuso> Depends on what gets focus first, so I can't answer that questino I'm affraid.
<TheMuso> questino
<TheMuso> question
<TheMuso> Fudge: You could also do it from the command line like so: pacmd set-sink-volume 0 100%
<TheMuso> Or 90/80% to be safe.
<Fudge> ah thanks heaps
<paul_h1> Hi, I just did a fresh install of Ubuntu 11.10 with the blindness profile. it went fine but now I've rebooted Orca isn't reading the launcher. something is happening because when I press alt+f1 I can no longer tab round the application I'm in and then I can again after pressing escape.  can this be fixed? do I need to switch to a different version of unity? thanks.
<Fudge> wel i failed on this box, its a p4. gave the cd over ten minutes, it booted on another quad core but i couldnt get sound
<TheMuso> Fudge: If you are trying this at the ubiquity screen, i.e to get speech, press COntrol Alt F1, then run the pacmd command I gave you.
<Fudge> TheMuso  i did try that but at a console
<Fudge> for some reason it didnt want to boot on this hardware though, is there a vesa option still, thought maybe 2nd option in boot menu
<TheMuso> I don't know about the vesa options etc.
<TheMuso> I don't have a CD handy to boot and check sorry.
<Fudge> thats ok
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-15
<webczat> Hey, what's the general status of kde accessibility?
<AlanBell> maco: my upgraded machine can't pronounce oneiric, but a fresh install on a virtual machine can. Any idea what is going on?
<AlanBell> never mind maco, I think I broke it
<webczat> Again, is kde accessible?
<AlanBell> maco: ^^
<AlanBell> or valorie 
<valorie> webczat: we're working on it
<valorie> the folks in #kde-accessibility might be more specific
<valorie> :-)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-10-16
<Fudge> b00
<TheMuso> Unfortunately #kde-accessibility is rather low traffic.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-10-08
<Fudge> lmao
<Fudge> AlanBell  it is a work in progress after all
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-10-09
 * Dave_Hunt wonders if the insaller for the daily build of the GNOME Shell remix will be accessible as of Oct 10?  
<Dave_Hunt> installer.
<TheMuso> Dave_Hunt: The Oct 10 build should work properly, the problem was found, and a work-around was uploaded.
<Dave_Hunt> Glad to hear that, TheMuso Are GNOME Remix and standard built by same process?  
<TheMuso> Dave_Hunt: I believe so, yes.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-10-11
<antdillon> Hello, could someone let me know who to talk to about reviewing the accessibility of part of the ubuntu website. Thank you in advance.
<AlanBell> antdillon: hello, what did you have in mind?
<antdillon> AlanBell, As a member of the webteam here at Canonical I would like to check with someone in the know if the new contribution page is completely assessable and if there are any improvements. We don't want to block to download process for anyone
<AlanBell> oh right, cool
<AlanBell> have you tried it with orca?
<AlanBell> antdillon: yeah, seems OK to me in orca (just turn on the screen reader from the universal access settings then put your mouse away and use the keyboard)
<AlanBell> I can't operate the sliders, but changing values is fine and reading the headings works
<AlanBell> the total seems readable but isn't in the tab order so you have to go back and find it
<AlanBell> dunno if the paypal route is accessible, but finding and using the not now link works fine
<AlanBell> it is a bunch of stuff to read before you get to the download itself, but that is kind of the point for everyone
<AlanBell> I am sighted, and I did have the monitor on when reviewing it, I was just checking that all the bits were navigable and readable, someone else might have a more informed opinion on the structure of the page
<antdillon> AlanBell, Thanks a lot for doing the tests. Can we confirm that it is accessible to the point were not stopping anyone from downloading Ubuntu
<AlanBell> sure, I could tab to the download link and activate it.
<AlanBell> antdillon: you might want to think about allowing focus on the total box
<antdillon> AlanBell, The total box is not a box but a div to display the total. It's not editable
<AlanBell> yeah, doesn't have to be editable
<AlanBell> just you tab right past it
<AlanBell> antdillon: how would I contribute financially to making Ubuntu more accessible?
<antdillon> AlanBell, There isn't a specific topic for accessibility but I would suggest it would be "Make the desktop more amazing" and "Community participation in Ubuntu development"
<AlanBell> how set in stone is the list?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-10-12
<DomasoFan> hi all. hope you are doing well today.
<DomasoFan> amyone know if ubuntu 12.10 will be fully accessible again until the release date?
<AlanBell> bug 1056300 is marked as fix released
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 1056300 in ubiquity "If a GTK application quits the main loop and restarts it again, accessibility is lost." [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1056300
<AlanBell> and xnox tested it a couple of days ago, I am downloading todays image now
 * AlanBell boots it in a VM
 * AlanBell hears the drums
<AlanBell> it speaks the first few pages of the installer at least, I am just pausing to file a visual bug
<AlanBell> lightdm seems OK, doesn't read the password, scrolling up and down reads user names
<AlanBell> buttons in the dash don't speak :(
<AlanBell> I think they do on my laptop though
 * genii-around pops in to watch AlanBell not press the button
<AlanBell> ok, so if you close any camera web windows you might have open and start VLC
<AlanBell> and then open network stream http://ubingo.libertus.co.uk:9090/videostream.asf?user=guest&pwd=guest
<AlanBell> you should get sound as well as vision
<AlanBell> ok, so on page 2 of the installer it doesn't read the stuff at the top, or the Fluendo bit at the botom
<DomasoFan> so. back. currently the cd also seems to be still big. guess they will fix that at the last day or so.
<DomasoFan> currently downloading the iso. seeing how it will do on virtualbox 4.2.
<JanC> DomasoFan: I'm not sure the ISO will fit on a CD, this time around?
<DomasoFan> no its 753 mb in size or so.
<DomasoFan> now something very ot: i love my new raspberry pi. having fun with midi playback now.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-10-14
<TheMuso> DomasoFan: That won't be changed, teh image size limit has been increased, so one needs to use a USB drive, or a DVD from now on.
