#ubuntu-meeting 2005-08-08
<adkinsj>      /msg nickserv set hide email on  
<adkinsj> hello?
<crimsun> hi?
<adkinsj> talkative bunch :)
<crimsun> this is the meeting room; see the topic for the next meeting
<crimsun> you probably want to be in #ubuntu
<adkinsj> ahh hehe ty
<crimsun> yw
<adkinsj> leaving
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:JaneW] : Calendar -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ || 3 Aug 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu Update Meeting ||3 Aug 22:00 UTC: MOTU http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting || 5 Aug 20:00 UTC: NUN http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda || 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda || 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda || 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: Community Co
<robitaille> JaneW: your new topic is too long; the end part is truncated...
<JaneW> robitaille: hmmm... I just added our meeting, which will be removed after 13:00 UTC.... 
<JaneW> robitaille: should I put it back to the way it was?
<robitaille> JaneW: leave it that way for now.  I'm sure someone will think to add back the end part of the CC meeting info after the Edubutu meeting
<robitaille> too many meeting in this place....  :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:JaneW] : Calendar - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar || Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ || 12:00 UTC Edubuntu ||3 Aug 22:00 UTC: MOTU http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting || 5 Aug 20:00 UTC: NUN http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda || 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda || 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda || 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: CC http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Community
<JaneW> yes, funny that hey
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:JaneW] : Calendar - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar|| Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/|| 12:00 UTC Edubuntu|| 3 Aug 22:00 UTC: MOTU http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting|| 5 Aug 20:00 UTC: NUN http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda|| 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda|| 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda|| 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: CC http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCounci
<JaneW> ok that's it for now...
<\sh> two meetings in two days...
<\sh> I must be lonely
<JaneW> hi john
<JaneW> you are a little early though
<JaneW> it's 12:00 UTC, so 14:00 our time 
<JaneW> JOhn you are UK time though right?
<JaneW> I think that's 13:00 your time
<Treenaks> "2 hours from now"
<Treenaks> - 9 minutes
<jingl3> Yes, I was just thinking... never know when to add or subtract! See you later!
<JaneW> Treenaks, that's a much better way of putting it, thank-you :)
<Treenaks> JaneW: np :)
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> zelazny.freenode.net
<jelkner> JaneW: good moring! this is the place for the edubuntu meeting, yes?
<JaneW> jelkner: morning :) yes, 27 minutes and counting
<JaneW> jelkner: you're early
<jelkner> i just didn't want to be late ;-)
<JaneW> :)
<JaneW> is 8am early in the states?
<jelkner> in the summer time it is
<JaneW> or just for flint?
<jelkner> for me too
<jelkner> not durning the school year
<JaneW> I guess on vaccation it would be...
<jelkner> indeed, those three months when teachers sleep in
<jelkner> our first agenda item is the timeline, yes?
<jelkner> i read the minutes from the last meeting, and i'm eager to know if we are still on target for those dates
<JaneW> indeed so am I
<jelkner> it's now or never time for planning free software day activities
<jelkner> we wanted to do several edubuntu related events
<jelkner> but i've been stalling to see if it would be possible
<JaneW> we have some issues though which I need to discuss
<JaneW> MEETING NOTICE: 15 minutes to our Edubuntu meeting in #ubuntu-devel
<JaneW> correction #ubuntu-meeting
<jelkner> opps, i thought i had to move
<jelkner> JaneW: question - flint is trying to join us, but he says the name "flint" is banned.
<jelkner> how can he fix this?
<JaneW> dunno
<JaneW> use another nick?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> jelkner: hey long time no see/chat even
<jelkner> jsgotango: and you would be whom?
<highvoltage> ah yes, let's do the intro thing.
* highvoltage is Jonathan Carter
<jelkner> jelkner is Jeff Elkner
<jingl3> jingl3 is John Ingleby
* jsgotangco is Jerome Gotangco jelkner doesn't remember :(
<ogra> <--- Oliver Grawert
<knuty> knuty <--- Knut Yrvin
* JaneW is 
* JaneW .
<JaneW> ;)
<highvoltage> hi knuty. saw you on the debconf video of mark's talk :)
<ogra> highvoltage, you did ? 
<JaneW> Hi all. Let's get started.
<knuty> highvoltage: Yes
<bskahan> Hi everyone
<JaneW> Edubuntu Meeting starting,
<ogra> knuty, oh i thought you were going for miss norway
<highvoltage> ogra: yes, i did.
<knuty> highvoltage: well I saw the video ;-)
<jsgotangco> heh
<JaneW> lol
* JaneW votes knut as miss norway
* ogra too
<knuty> JaneW: 8-)
<JaneW> ok back on topic
<jsgotangco> agenda?
<ogra> jsgotangco, mail !
<jsgotangco> gyah
* jsgotangco grumbles "we have a wiki"
<JaneW> * Current status of the edubuntu distro - and a review of Oliver's  Development Roadmap (Milestones, ctivities and requirements  going forward to the release date). This could include requests for assistance from Oliver.
<JaneW> jsgotangco: edit it!:P
<ogra> http://edubuntu.org/EdubuntuOneDotZeroRoadmap
<JaneW> oli can we point everyone to your wiki pages?
<ogra> sure
<ogra> they are a bit draftish, but surely for the public
<JaneW> ok if you care to take a look at that it's a highlevel roadmap from here to the release date
<jsgotangco> ahh august 11
<jelkner> milestone one says aug. 11
<JaneW> that's next FRIDAY
<jelkner> are we still on for that?
<JaneW> yes
<ogra> i hope we have a working install CD by aug 11
<jsgotangco> nice
* jsgotangco cracks whip
<ogra> ubuntus X is still not installable
<JaneW> ogra: can you give us a few sentences of where you are at with the development please?
<jelkner> i thought breezy was still broken?
<JaneW> jsgotangco: oi that's my job!
<ogra> i have made an upgrade yesterday and it took me half the day to get a working X agaiun... :(
<ogra> JaneW, sure
<JaneW> how is Breezy looking atm, ito build status?
<ogra> the server package is nearly done, all seeds are sorted (seeds are the base for metapackages like edubuntu-server/-desktop)
<sivang> hi ogra 
<ogra> i'm lagging with the main inclusion reports... (i suck at buerocracy)
<JaneW> ogra: can someone help you with that?
<ogra> the edubuntu-desktop package sits still in universe as long as mnot all reports are approved... 
<ogra> JaneW, sure... Burgundavia already wanted to do them.... 
<ogra> but we still have a lot of them...
<JaneW> cool, let him!
<ogra> another odd thing is the mediawiki package....
<JaneW> he;s not here now... too early for him I think
<JaneW> yes
<jsgotangco> thats strange her barely sleeps :)
<ogra> debian asked me to not include my quick made hackish package but to use theirs... the problem is that not much development is going on there
<ogra> they are still discussing basics and i fear thy wont have it ready in time
<ogra> a third thing is that gcompris obviously doesnt compile with our compiler... gcompris is a hell of a package and takes time to fix (43MB source)
<ogra> now to the positive stuff
<jsgotangco> it even has svgalib
<ogra> we have a classroom control tool now... its over 60% done....
<JaneW> wait
<JaneW> how serious are these issues?
<JaneW> can we live with them being broken and not included (worst case scenario?)
<ogra> i had the choice to either rewrite the backend for TeacherTool to work with our LTSPO implementation or to do something from scratch
<ogra> i decided for the latter...
<ogra> JaneW, gcompris is essential ...
<ogra> mediawiki *can* be replaced by moin, but we committed otherwise....
<highvoltage> LTSPO?
<JaneW> nod
<ogra> my package would work, but i doubt its upgradeable wit the otally differen built debian package we'll have in the next release
<ogra> highvoltage, -O indeed
* ogra wants a new keyboard *cry*
<ogra> so i'd like to see these two packages in....
<jsgotangco> gcompris not in edubuntu would be a shame since a lot of people like it
<ogra> another thing is that pitti doesnt want to support php4 
<jsgotangco> especially for early education
<ogra> in no case...
<highvoltage> geez
<ogra> all the packages we use are built for php4, but breezy is planned to have php5 (wich entered the disto yesterday or so)
<ogra> so i have to rebuild all php based packages and test them again php5... mediawiki is known to have issues...
<jelkner> and moodle?
<ogra> (besides the two weekly securiy updates you need anyway to keep it half way secure)
<flint> orga, one way to keep it secure is to front end it with a secure web application
<ogra> moodle *should* work with php5 i havent seen negative reports yet, but as i said, php5 wasnt available before beginning of the week)
<ogra> flint, haha....
<flint> sorry ogra not orga can't type
<ogra> flint, you mean a frontend to the frontend ?
<flint> No, (as they say) seriously folks why not put schootool in front of it?
<flint> The only way to get to moodle is through schooltool (in this fantasy)
<ogra> flint, we have schooltool in parallel
<ogra> (the only server app tha doesnt cause headaches for me currently)
<flint> how hard would series be?  (just asking)
<flint> I know, I like schooltool!
<ogra> and i'd like to keep moodle open for custiomization by the teacher
<ogra> as well as mdiawiki...
<ogra> media even
<flint> gotcha.
<highvoltage> ogra: is that the same keyboard you use for coding?
<ogra> highvoltage, mostly, yes... but vim has a great highlighting ;)
<jelkner> the big question for me is: can we go ahead with our free software day plans?
<ogra> jelkner, free software day plans ??
<jelkner> in other words, will it be possible to install a usable edubuntu server by sept 10
<flint> or... to put it another way, how do I get my own ubuntu toaster?
<jelkner> we have a few projects in the works waiting for edubuntu
<ogra> jelkner, see the roadmap... i'm plannung to match the milestones ;)
<flint> my question is what happened to Johnathan and Hilton's iso...
<jelkner> then it looks good
<jelkner> ogra: but you are depending on breezy work
<highvoltage> flint: our iso's aren't usable
<ogra> the essential part where i need most help will be the testing over the next month
<jelkner> which isn't even usable yet
<highvoltage> or let me put it this way, it's really not ready for wide-spread use.
<jelkner> we are ready willing and eager to test
<ogra> jelkner, yes, thats the prob... the X transition took extensively longer then planned
<JaneW> lagging, but hangon guys, let's finish getting thing developed first...
<highvoltage> flint: and it's Jonathan, not Johnathan, btw ;)
<jsgotangco> heh
<flint> to quote the man "release early and often" Jonathan
<JaneW> ogra: where you finished with your update?
<ogra> jelkner, the php5 decision is still pending and php5 isnt widely tested yet...
<JaneW> I was trying to distill the salient part out to record
<ogra> JaneW, i think so
<JaneW> ogra: do you need any further help right now?
<flint> sorry about the misspellings, it is a gift part of FITS
<JaneW> ogra: and will you contact Corey for your inclusion reports?
<ogra> JaneW, the report stuff would be a good candidate
<JaneW> flint: I am typo queen!
<JaneW> ogra: will you speak to corey or should I?
<ogra> as you like... i'm around anyway... so who sees him first :)
<JaneW> ogra: does the php thing cause you a lot of extra work?
<JaneW> ogra: ok, let;s both nag him, I seem to be good at annoying ppl today....
<ogra> JaneW, sure... but keeping both would be the oddest we could do...
<ogra> there has to be a decision... php is the worst stuff we have... and we need the most appropriate solution to be able to support it
<JaneW> ogra: what are you going to do about gcompris?
<flint> Jeff is concerned because our targets in DC are the Regional Public School Libraries 
<ogra> JaneW, contacting upstream...
<ogra> flint, can you elaborate... 
<JaneW> ogra: what would happen if it can;t get fixed? Do we still have a product?
<ogra> JaneW, seed change (rip out gcompris) ....
<ogra> JaneW, but gcompris is essential, we cant drop it...
<JaneW> ogra: so this is a biggie, by when must it be fixed, at the latest?
<JaneW> ogra: and is there anyone I can nag?
<flint> ogra, It has to do with proxying moodle through the Zope3 schooltool application.  It is just an idea at this time...
<jelkner> ogra: what is the status of child's play?
<ogra> it should be ready for M1 but during M1-2 shoudl also be sufficient
<ogra> jelkner, is that a complete replacemet ? i would rather see it as add on
<ogra> flint, that doesnt solve my php problem... its just another webserver in fron then
<jelkner> they are different, so it is an add-on, but they are aimed at similar target users
<ogra> jelkner, so you mean childsplay as a fallback for the worst case scenarion ?
<jelkner> gcompris is more mature, but child's play is written in Python
<ogra> -n
<flint> you are correct.  it merely "solves" the issues of security...
<ogra> flint, my current problem is to find out if it works with php5 at all... we had no php5 packages until beginning of this week... and we wont support 4 and 5
<JaneW> jelkner: do you think it's a feasible plan b?
* mhz (sorry he's late but glad he could make it)
<jelkner> i'm not in a position to know
<jelkner> i could use either, but i'm starting with new installations
<ogra> JaneW, feasable no, but calming down the rage of our users :)
<jelkner> we may have folks who already use gcompris
<jelkner> and who would be upset without it
<ogra> there are a lot shool projects that write extensions for gcompris....
<JaneW> ogra: ok worst case scenario, but certainly not preferable
<ogra> they wouldnt have a base... i think dropping gcompris is out of discussion
<highvoltage> ogra: we use mediawiki and moodle with php5 in tuxlabs at the moment
<ogra> highvoltage, but not the debian packages... i'm bound to them :(
<highvoltage> ah, of course.
<JaneW> ogra: do we have to escalate this issue to mdz?
<flint> ogra, I see the problem now as a functional issue, beyond security.
<JaneW> ogra: seem to be jeopardising us quite heavily
<ogra> JaneW, gcompris ? he knows about it
<flint> got my vote!
<JaneW> ok shall we move on, that was item 1 - 40 minutes
<JaneW> or is there more to discuss?
<ogra> yep
<ogra> we have a mailing list ... and we'll have more meetings
<JaneW> ogra: wise words
<JaneW> * Testing requirements, as per Olivers testing Plan.
<ogra> (nothing more to discuss now imho)
<JaneW> http://edubuntu.org/EdubuntuTestingPlan
<ogra> thats a draft, i'll drop it into the ML tfor further discussion
<JaneW> oliver will call for testers when the time comes
<ogra> after aug 11th ;)
<jelkner> but not long after, i hope ;-)
<JaneW> ok
<ogra> or better: testig can start from aug 11th
<JaneW> * Documentation current status, and requirements to completion by release date, wrt ubuntu documentation and the cookbook.
<jelkner> that sounds good
<JaneW> jsgotangco: you're up
<jsgotangco> oh
<jsgotangco> what is there to write when there is no working system heh
<jsgotangco> seriously though, tuxlabs cookbook
<JaneW> *sulk*
<flint> harsh jane, very harsh...
<jsgotangco> JaneW: source?
<JaneW> highvoltage: did you get anything from Jean yet?
<highvoltage> JaneW: no, he's in a part of Nairobi now where he doesn't have e-mail access.
<JaneW> jsgotangco: yes, waiting on that
<jsgotangco> if there is none, i might decide on writing one from scratch *doh*
<JaneW> highvoltage: does someone else have a copy of it?
<JaneW> jsgotangco: can it not be scrapped?
<jsgotangco> no way
<jsgotangco> we'll find a way
<JaneW> sigh
<highvoltage> JaneW: i think we might have sent the publishers the source, i'll find out. i think they might have gotten it directly from jean, but they might have it still...
<jsgotangco> i want the cookbook
<ogra> grep the online version
<ogra> grab
<jsgotangco> yeah
<JaneW> I can cut and paste into a doc for you ;P
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> sure that would work short term
* jsgotangco prefers source doc
<mhz> ogra, Will TuxLabs be the 1st version of Edubuntu Documentation?
<JaneW> ok, let's just focus on short term for now?
<jsgotangco> JaneW: sure that's workable
<flint> where is the online tuxlab cookbook?  (for the record...) 
<ogra> mhz, it will be a add on... but we'll need specific docs too...
<JaneW> any progress is good right now IMO
<jsgotangco> i'll start just to keep things rolling and not to make it to complicated to lessen the barrier for volunteers
<mhz> ogra, but if translations are done... will we take Cookbook?
<JaneW> jsgotangco: just keep nagging highvoltage to get the source though, he likes that ;)
<mhz> ogra, (tuxlabs, I meant)
<jsgotangco> JaneW: i have chains if you have your whip, i'll try that thanks
<knuty> flint: http://learnlinux.tsf.org.za/courses/web-tuxlabs.html
<JaneW> http://www.upfrontsystems.co.za/Members/jean/cookbook/docbook/cookbook.html
<flint> sweet!!!
<ogra> mhz, the cookbook is very coommon and a great source for the basice... but the specifics have to be adressed elsewhere
<ogra> basics
<mhz> ogra, ok
<ogra> mhz, i.e. our LTSP works quite different...
<JaneW> jsgotangco: so is that it for now, ITO documentation?
<jsgotangco> JaneW: yup guess so, no usable system, no reason to discuss further
<mhz> ogra, I'll be working on a MoinMoin wiki CookBook, so I can start from TuxLabs and then??
<JaneW> ok agreed
<ogra> mhz, we committed to mediawiki...
<mhz> oh
<JaneW>  * Art work, what's done, what still needs to be done, and by  whom. 
<ogra> as per user requirement
<JaneW> last time we discussed the following:
<JaneW> 1. the folder icon, 
<JaneW>  2. wallpaper, 
<JaneW>  3. splash screen...
<JaneW>  4. gdm theme
<JaneW>  5. Jonathan to create a flying penguins edubuntu 'please wait' screen.
<JaneW>  6. CD Cover & CD label
<JaneW>  7. Edubuntu web site artwork
<flint> orga makes a crucial point.  The mdz version LTSP will not match the docs 
<JaneW> highvoltage: did the first verions of item 5.
<highvoltage> on #1, ogra and i looked at some folder icons.
<ogra> highvoltage and me talked about the icon theme stuff...
<knuty> ogra: cookbook ... specifics elsewhere: That's why we made this book: http://developer.skolelinux.no/dokumentasjon/newdriftbok/
<highvoltage> there's a bit too much to replace, so we'll defer it to the next version.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> tons of folder icons to redraw... so too much for now
<JaneW> highvoltage: you mean the folder icon stays?
<highvoltage> who's tasked to do #2, #3 and #4?
<highvoltage> JaneW: yep. is that a problem for you?
<ogra> knuty, 80% of the stuff covered there i'd love to have automated and not to poke the user with it :)
<ogra> knuty, but its a great source ... we'll include a package as add on if you have one...
<JaneW> highvoltage: no, I was just clarifying, making notes.
<ogra> knuty, err, whats coyote linux ?
<highvoltage> ok
<flint> coyote linux is a router, nat firewall on a floppy disk
<JaneW> items 2, 3,4,6,7 still need owners...
<JaneW> the next person to comment gets them!
<ogra> ah
<JaneW> not YOU!
<JaneW> :P
<ogra> :p
<highvoltage> blah
<JaneW> lol
<highvoltage> i like doing theming.
<knuty> ogra: You cant automate the flash installation ... or handling the LDAP.diff-s in a sane way ... Because thats the only thing people do after installing the system :-)
<JaneW> ogra really wants to do everything
<ogra> JaneW, naaah
<highvoltage> ah yes, it's a curse.
<ogra> knuty, no LDAP in our first release
<highvoltage> i think ogra and i suffer it both.
<JaneW> so who has artistic flair, apptitude and wants to do some cool stuff for us?
<teolemon> i can do some translations and websitework if you need some
<ogra> knuty, a standalone server doesnt need one :)
<knuty> orga: coyote is firewall. There are a lot of different networks out there.
<teolemon> an very basic graphic work
<teolemon> and
<highvoltage> i have aptitude, it doesn't have super cow powers though :(
<flint> I volunteer elkner to do #4, the theme!
<ogra> knuty, right...
<knuty> orga: I know that you dont have LDAP. Our book deskribes the things you have to do when operating and upkeeping the system
<knuty> orga: after the installation
<mhz> JaneW, why not asking for volunteers in the ML ?
<JaneW> pok we need to work on getting artwork drummed up
<ogra> knuty, i'd like to have that automated for our next version... just asking 1-2 questions
<JaneW> who ever can do something please try, and we'll take it from there
<JaneW> mhz: yes I think so
<flint> part of the linux router project (www.coyotelinux.com/)
<highvoltage> good suggestion.
<jsgotangco> erm
<JaneW> highvoltage: any chance you can out a nice upbeat soliciting message together?
<knuty> orga: to make a debconf-net-install-solution is good
<JaneW> s/out/put
<highvoltage> JaneW: task me on it
<JaneW> cool thanks
<JaneW> we have an issue re CDs and printed material
<mhz> what issue?
<JaneW> on Fri I said it was happening and now it may not be.
<mhz> oh
<JaneW> I am still trying to get clarity though...
<flint> jane, what format does te CD and printed material need to arrive in?
<ogra> knuty, i thin about some kind of automated clustering of the servers to work together and share free ressources, but thats all breezy+1 and i have to focus on breezy
<mhz> ogra, I'd love to see that clustering working !
<ogra> :)
* ogra would love to have a base to put it on top first ;)
<mhz> lol
<knuty> orga: I know :-). That's why i pointed out what we have to do to maintain the system after the installation - and this experiences could be taken into consideraton on 1.0+1
* mhz is convincing a chool here in Chile that has lots of PC's and are testing clustering methods
<ogra> knuty, yep... but i dont even demote any brain cells to brezy+1 yet ;)
<flint> ogra...the ibm Z-900 version would be nice :^)
<ogra> flint, send me one for testing *g*
<JaneW> our time is almost up, any final issues/comments?
<flint> note that I have patience and will wait for the fulfillment of a single box versioin...
<jsgotangco> hey guys, i have to go, its already 9pm and i still have some issues to settle here at home seems like a nice meeting though
<teolemon> Jane,why don't you like the current folder icon ?
<ogra> teolemon, it doesnt look lke folder
<ogra> else its fine...
<jelkner> jsgotangco: see you later, Jerome!
<ogra> (colors lining etc)
<flint> jane still has numbers without names next to them,  I know how much she likes these columns of numbers and names.....
<teolemon> ah ok
<JaneW> teolemon: I haven;t even seen it...
<JaneW> bye jsgotangco 
<highvoltage> ogra: perhaps it looks like a folder to kids?
<teolemon> i'm a 18 year ol
<ogra> highvoltage, thats my big hope ;)
<highvoltage> ogra: i think you're just to old to appreciate it :)
* highvoltage ducks
<teolemon> not a kid anymore :-(
<JaneW> if I have no volunteers I select names at random
<ogra> highvoltage, no need to duck, youre right, i'm an old fart :)
<teolemon> highvoltage yes that's it :-P
<JaneW> highvoltage: hey watch out!
<teolemon> you need someone to try to do some new icons ?
* highvoltage ducks from JaneW 
<teolemon> may i give it a try ?
<highvoltage> teolemon: by all means.
<JaneW> ok let's leave ogra to get on with it
<JaneW> ogra: please shout if you need ANYTHING
<ogra> absolutely
<JaneW> else keep the discussion going in #edubuntu and on the ML... the countdown has begun.
<mhz> JaneW, my only flairs so far are related to documenting and Translating, as well as admining MoinMoin and testing apps for education
<JaneW> thanks everyone
<ogra> and you all please kick my butt if yu miss anything ;)
<highvoltage> teolemon: add your icons here: http://www.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuIcons
<teolemon> ok
<JaneW> mhz: great, chat to jsgotangco, he will co-ordinate that side
<mhz> okidoki
<ogra> mhz, we might fall back to moin if mediawiki turns out to not work as we need...
<mhz> you will get back, I know
<ogra> mhz, but the target is to make it work...
<teolemon> http://art.gnome.org/images/thumbnails/icon/ICON-dlg-etiquette-Shot.png
<mhz> please do because Mediawiki will not do for an international syncronization of servers
<teolemon> is that the kind of thing you're looking for ?
<JaneW> just changing the topic back... 
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:JaneW] : Calendar - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar|| Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/|| 3 Aug 22:00 UTC: MOTU http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting|| 5 Aug 20:00 UTC: NUN http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda|| 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda|| 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda|| 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: CC http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<teolemon> Gartoonish and more folder like
<ogra> JaneW, any date fo next meeting ? 
<JaneW> ogra: what do you think? Friday?
<mhz> what if they were every wenesday?
<ogra> all 3 days ? 
<JaneW> I am away Mon & Tues, so alternately next wed
<JaneW> ?
<ogra> thats heavy
<JaneW> wed is good
<ogra> yes
<jelkner> wed is good
<mhz> but could it be Every Wednesday? (default)
<jelkner> regular time and day is easier to plan for
<ogra> once a week... and going down to two weeks if thigs are more settled
<JaneW> ok, wed 10th same time?
<mhz> cool
<jelkner> great
<JaneW> ack, I thought 11 Aug was a Fri, it's Thurs!!!
<highvoltage> great
<ogra> probably rotating the time for other timezones
<mhz> LOL
<jelkner> so, next wed at 12 UTC?
<mhz> but I can suffer from less sleeping once a week
<flint> no, keep it in the early morning edt...i love getting up early!
<JaneW> yes, it's on the wiki
<jelkner> flint: that *is* early, paul
<highvoltage> flint: you are a morning person!? I would have never guessed :)
<jelkner> 8 am our time
<ogra> highvoltage, lol
<mhz> JaneW, Moin has a plugin called Calendar :)
<JaneW> it's 9pm for jerome, so we can;t shift it much firther that way...
<ogra> highvoltage, he works in serious offices... that requires ealry birds ;)
<highvoltage> ah
<JaneW> ok I must go, I will try to get a summary out later.
<jelkner> bye jane
<flint> i lie 
<teolemon> bye
<highvoltage> JaneW: i'm quite reliant on that, i haven't made notes for myself
<ogra> JaneW, Burgundavia will never be able to attend... and we'd have to get mdz out of bed early if we dont rotate...
<JaneW> tut tut
<philipp> bye
<ogra> (assuming he wants to attend)
<highvoltage> philipp: bye
<JaneW> ogra: hmm, we'll have to do something with them. 
<philipp> highvoltage: hi!
<philipp> :-P
<JaneW> hi and bye phillip
<highvoltage> hi philipp 
<ogra> JaneW, yep... if the want to attend ...
* mhz gets back to battle with Edubuntu release being tested but not 100% wiorking :D
<ogra> mhz, X is uninstallable currently... its a PITA
<philipp> highvoltage: sorry I missed the start of the meeting, what's the situation with the website?
<mhz> ogra, yes, I thought so
<ogra> jbailey, hey... [linesca]  already asked me about you
<philipp> highvoltage: are we sticking with the wiki for now?
<highvoltage> philipp: JaneW and I are going to make an alternative plan with the hosting.
<philipp> ok...
<jbailey> ogra: Did I miss him? =(
<jelkner> cya next week everyone...
<ogra> jbailey, nope... he hangs around in #edubuntu
<jbailey> Ah, I had missed the [] 's n the /whois.  Thanks!
<ogra> :)
<knuty> ogra: What's about the LTSP-issue?
<ogra> jbailey, he has new HW to test ;)
<ogra> knuty, ?? what should be about it ...
<teolemon> just a question: are there any plans to recreate the ubuntu logo with children
<mhz> ogra, When I meant my vote is for MoinMoin is basically because I have been working for 1 month on project (LatinAmerican) called WikiLearn (soon to be released next 2 weeks). So far, the only wiki that has proved to be the right one, is MoinMoin
<jbailey> ogra: Cool. =)
<knuty> ogra: It says:  Fix LTSP login manager at the OneDotZeroRoadmap
<ogra> mhz, nearly all teachers we had at the summit were only familiar with mediawiki...
<mhz> yes
<teolemon> DokuWiki?
<teolemon> that's the one we use on the French community
<ogra> knuty, yes, ldm currently looks quite odd... i have the new design ready, but didnt wave it in the code yet
<teolemon> wiki.ubuntu-fr.org
<mhz> ogra, but that doesn mean is the right one for educational purposes. Nearly ALL Chilean teachers are only familiar with Microsoft products :)
<knuty> ogra: ok :-)
<ogra> mhz, but they shouted they want it includd, so we folowed the demand
<mhz> ok, I understand that.
<ogra> hmm... add some l's and e' at appropriate places
<mhz> :)
<philipp> highvoltage: feel free to ping me for help with the website anytime, once you got the server sorted out...
<highvoltage> philipp: thanks
<ogra> the applist is not very much arguable at the moment, we can change everything for breezy+1 but for now the target is rather sabilization of the current selection
<highvoltage> philipp: i haven't forgotten about you :)
<mhz> then, I will have to prove WikiLearn needs Edubuntu and Edubuntu will benifit from WikiLearn. It's a pity Moin is not GUI flavoured yet.
<philipp> highvoltage: glad your short term memory is intact! :-)
<ogra> mhz, moin is available, as all the other 17000 ubuntu packages... its just not in the default install
<ogra> its only one apt-get away :)
<teolemon> i second that,a good explanation on the doc with the main pros and cons for each
<teolemon> in
<teolemon> the doc
<mhz> ogra, unfortunatelly... last time I checked, APT was not as good as untaring
<mhz> (the moin.deb I mean)
<ogra> mhz, from the debian or ubuntu repository ? or a foreign packaged ne ?
<ogra> one even
<mhz> from Debian reps.
<ogra> what was the problem ?
<mhz> and from Ubuntu one (1.5 months ago)
<ogra> it normally should leave you with a basic default setup that you can easily customize 
<mhz> official installation instructions were not 100% applicable for .deb
<ogra> at least thats what debian packages normally do
<mhz> so users tend to get lost
<mhz> and some of them who were clever enough, step by #moin (where we helped them)
<mhz> ogra, one thing I am getting lost now here is: Mediawiki will be included in Edubuntu, but will that mean Ubuntu websites will no longer be Moin, too?
<ogra> nah
<ogra> we love moin....
<mdke> moin <3
<ogra> i wouldnt even go near mediawiki if there were no user demand.... i *hate* php and its insecuritys
<mhz> :D
<Seveas> and mediawiki is quite a terrible wiki too :)
<mhz> too? LOL
<ogra> but the base for wikipedia...
<mhz> ogra, have you ever tested MoinPedia?
<ogra> which was the main concern....
<Treenaks> Seveas: it's better than it used to be
<ogra> mhz, nope
<mhz> Alexander (#moin) did that just for fun
<mhz> took all DB from Wikipedia and used it as MoinMoin /data
<ogra> grea
<ogra> t
<teolemon> i'd be temptated to say that php security on school networks isn't that important.You would need really gifted students or really twisted people wanting to target schools
<ogra> but lets rather move tha conversation to #edubuntu adn make the channel free for other meetings
<teolemon> but i'm perhaps heavily mistaking
<mhz> anyways, I need Ubuntu (at leat Edubuntu site) to stay with Moin because, WikiLearn will only be opossible to exist with MoinMoin (so far). And so, after people (users of WikiLearn) get used to Moin, they will also be ready to contribute to Edubuntu
<teolemon> ok
<mhz> ok
<mhz> see you there
<ogra> teolemon, some write their tests online.... dont underestimate the hacker skills of teenagers
<flint> I am trying to work up a plan for 10 September with elkner... I am going to go bother him about it.  
<ogra> flint, /join #edubuntu ;)
<flint> ok, I have caused enough trouble here...
<sivang> it is going to be a MOTU meeting soon?
<carlos> pitti, doko: Hi
<doko> hi
<robitaille> sivang:  22:00 UTC
<pitti> hi
<pitti> carlos: so you wnat to talk about OO.o l10n?
<carlos> so, Firefox and OO.org integration...
<carlos> doko, pitti, Mark wants those language packs as a priority now
<carlos> so I we are defining an spec of all steps we should follow to get it done
<carlos> a kind of step by step guide
<pitti> carlos: you mean updating oo.o/ffox langpacks with rosetta data?
<carlos> with the name who will do it 
<carlos> pitti, importing it into Rosetta and then update them from Rosetta, yes
<pitti> (I hope you don't mean changing ffox/oo.o to use gettext)
<carlos> pitti, no way ;-)
<pitti> so 1) we should package the tools to convert oo.o/ffox translations to gettext and 2) call them in debian/rules?
<carlos> Mark wants that the import into Rosetta and the export from Rosetta is done the same way we do it for the other language packs
<carlos> pitti, right
<carlos> I think there are already .deb packages available from Debian, doko?
<pitti> well, the import side is possible with that
<pitti> but not the export
<pitti> since langpack-o-matic can't build ffox locale packs
<doko> carlos: yes, pootle is in the archive
<carlos> pitti, well, the idea is to extend it so you can generate .mo files, firefox's language packs or oo.org language packs
<pitti> instead, there should be a new debian/rules target to pull updates from rosetta (in the locale packs for ffox/ooo)
<carlos> doko, cool
<doko> carlos: still the problem how to split/concatenate these into manageable chunkgs
<pitti> carlos: *cough*
<carlos> doko, Mark said that the idea of having one .pot file per directory is good. He agrees that 250 files are too much and only one is too big
<carlos> doko, it's a problem to solve as part of our step by step guide
<carlos> pitti, so you want that the deb build fetches files from Rosetta?
<doko> ok, then I'll patch the translate-toolkit and write these files to somewhere
<pitti> carlos: not always, but if you call "debian/rules rosetta-update" or whatever
<carlos> doko, the idea is to create, for instance, a po/ directory and store there the .pot and .po files, martin's script will take care to move them into Rosetta
<carlos> doko, like the other packages do it
<pitti> ^ yes, that's what I tought for import
<pitti> in principle, this should be possible for both ooo and ffox
<doko> carlos: you need to keep the sdf file
<carlos> pitti, hmm, we don't have a direct download features, so that would be a problem
<carlos> doko, yeah, that's another thing to talk about
<carlos> doko, we are not going to store that .sdf file into rosetta so we should decide a place that will be available on build time
<pitti> carlos: where's the difference whether debian/rules or langpack-o-matic grabs the translations?
<doko> it's fine for me to generate these directories
<carlos> pitti, well, atm we will send you an email with a link to the language pack
<carlos> pitti, so it depends on the way you want to implement it
<carlos> pitti, I'm not 100% sure Mark will be happy to handle that in a different way, but If you think it's too hard to do it, I think we could convince him
<carlos> ok, lets write a list of steps to follow that we need to do to get language packs done
<pitti> carlos: sure, and I can just take the ffox translations out of it and feed it to debian/rules somehow
<pitti> carlos: alternatively, I can create a "wrapper" that apt-get sources the locale packs, and updates them from the rosetta tarball
<pitti> carlos: it just doesn't fit into the current langpack-o-matic
<carlos> ok
<pitti> carlos: but of course I can write a mozlangpack-o-matic and an ooolangpack-o-matic :-)
<doko> pitti: yes please :-)
<pitti> just not throw it all into one huge script
<carlos> First the easier one, Firefox (feel free to add any extra step I'm missing):
<pitti> doko: erm, s/I can/can be done/ :-)
<doko> :-(
<carlos> 1.- Add an extra rule on build time to generate a .pot file and a set of .po files per language pack
<pitti> ATM I don't even know how to translate back and forth mozilla stuff, but it seems to be possible
<carlos> 2.- Current process will send them to Rosetta, Rosetta will import them and people will translate them
<carlos> pitti, there are scripts that do that
<pitti> carlos: s/language pack/mozilla-firefox-locale-all/?
<carlos> what ever it's called, yes
<pitti> erm, rather from firefox itself, not the locale packs
<carlos> 3. Once per month, an email will be sent to martin? with the link to a tarball with all updates done to firefox (a set of .po files)
<pitti> so far that's clear
<pitti> carlos: btw, I tried "that script" the other day, and it plainly refused to work, but oh well...
<doko> /usr/bin/moz2po
<doko> /usr/bin/po2moz
<doko> from pootle
<pitti> doko: oh, cool
<pitti> will try that
<carlos> 4. an script will download that tarball and will regenerate a new mozilla-firefox-locale-all
<carlos> Am I missing anything?
<carlos> I think that's all needed for firefox, right?
<carlos> doko, do we need anything other than the .po files to create the firefox language pack?
<pitti> carlos: the trouble lies in details, but in general that's the plan, yes
<doko> carlos: I don't know, never did look at the firefox translation stuff
<carlos> pitti, we should have those details clear after this meeting
* pitti has no idea either
<carlos> doko, ok
<carlos> lets assume for now that the .po file is the only needed thing
<carlos> I will try to investigate it a bit
<carlos> pitti, which details do you think we should take into account?
<doko> carlos, could you spec that a bit out? how the target is named, where the files should go, and so on
<pitti> carlos: I mean all the crappy little bugs you encounter when actually doing this, nothing that would influence the general strategy
<carlos> pitti, oh, so you talk about the usual problems will be raised while implementing it?
<carlos> ok
<carlos> doko, sure, that's the idea
<carlos> doko, after the meeting I will write a spec with a step by step guide so we know everthing needed to do the implementation
<carlos> if anything is missing, the spec should be updated
<carlos> So I suppose we will need an extra meeting after that spec is ready
<carlos> to add extra information to it
<carlos> pitti, anyway, from the process I just talked about, I assume that the email with hte link to the language pack will be enough for your, right?
<pitti> Yes, I guess so
<carlos> s/language pack/firefox language pack/
<carlos> ok
<pitti> I actually have to try that out before I can talk about some details
<carlos> pitti, the email will be quite similar to the one you get when you request an export from rosetta
<carlos> pitti, and the content will be also similar, or do you want soemthing as complex as current language packs?
<pitti> same structure woudl be fine for me
<pitti> to tell apart ffox, tbird, moztilla, etc.
<carlos> pitti, do all language packs for ffox, tbird and mozilla come from the same .deb source package?
<pitti> carlos: no, in fact not, lemme explain:
<pitti> carlos: in general, each translation for each package has _its own_ source package and deb
<pitti> then, half a year ago most ffox translations were collected in mozilla-firefox-locale-all
<pitti> but there are still some language-specific mozilla-firefox-locale-<lang> source packages
<pitti> and all tbird/moz locale packages have their own source 
<carlos> hmmm
<carlos> that would be a problem
<carlos> but the priority is firefox
<carlos> and they seem to be doing the right thing (more or less)
<carlos> so tbird and mozilla should be supported specially, just like KDE
<carlos> pitti, the question is... do you prefer the same layout like current language packs where you have a directory per language and a .po file with the translation domain?
<carlos> in this case the translation domain will be a name that will let you know if it's firefox, tbird or mozilla
<carlos> as they don't use gettext and that name will not be used
<carlos> pitti, the other option is a tarball with a file per language with the language code
<pitti> carlos: yes, that will be fine
<carlos> as the name
<pitti> carlos: if you do separate tarballs anyway, then I don't mind the internal format 
<pitti> carlos: OTOH, if you stuff ffox etc. translations into the main big rosetta output tarballs, then jsut stick to the format, so langpack-o-matic can sort them out easily
<carlos> pitti, is up to you, if you say that using the big language pack tarball is ok for you
<carlos> I prefer to do it that way
<pitti> carlos: actually I don't see a reason why rosetta should generate a special tarball for mozilla stuff
<carlos> so I don't need to implement an specific script to send you the firefox and oo.org translations
<pitti> carlos: this keeps consistency in all levels but langpack-o-matic itself
<pitti> carlos: yes, we just need to agree to special "fake" domains, like "mozilla-firefox", "mozilla-thunderbird", "mozilla"
<carlos> ok, so they will be part of the main language pack tarball
<pitti> carlos: in fact, these domains should be determined by the POT file name that is created by the respective source package
<carlos> pitti, right
<carlos> pitti, just tell me them now and I will add them to the spec
<pitti> carlos: I'm fine with the proposals above
<carlos> ok
<doko> carlos: if you send pitti the translations, who does convert the translations back to sdf files?
<pitti> oh, and "openoffice.org", and "openoffice.org2"?
<doko> pitti: no OOo1
<pitti> WFM
<carlos> doko, talking about OO?
<doko> yes
<carlos> doko, we will cover them now, just a second to finish with Firefox
<carlos> pitti, we should decide who will work on which parts of the process
<pitti> first I'll try to export PO files in mozilla packages
<pitti> but I have a huge pile of other stuff to do, so please don't expect it to be ready tomorrow :-/
<carlos> pitti, doko, how is your agenda?
<carlos> what would you do and what should I do or look for someone else to do?
<pitti> carlos: crowded and a temporarily disabled right hand
<carlos> ok
<carlos> doko, and you?
<pitti> carlos: if you have the time to actually write some small script which extracts ffox translations, I can easily incorporate it into the packages
<pitti> if not, I'll find some time 
<doko> carlos: ohh, low on time as well, but ... I can generate the sdf files, and then the po files. need to look at the concatenating of the files
<doko> at merge time, I would expect a complete set of po files, and the old sdf files
<carlos> pitti, doko all us are busy but I think I can rearrange my tasks a bit as my last release date just happened so I don't have the timeline you have
<carlos> pitti, so I will take care of firefox conversion
<pitti> cool
<carlos> doko, if you would do that for oo that would be perfect
<carlos> it's a bit more complex than firefox and I'm not sure I can catch with all your investigations
<carlos> doko, anyway if you think you will not have time, tell me and I will try to manage that with daf
<carlos> about the OO language packs
<carlos> the procedure should be exactly the same as with firefox
<carlos> doko, are all language packs inside the same source package?
<doko> ok, if daf can work on the file splitting/merging, that would be nice. I'm away tomorrow, and Friday half day
<carlos> doko, daf feels sick this week and I'm on a non coding week writting specs
<doko> carlos: we will duplicate the OOo2 source, build the binaries from one copy, and the language packs form the other copy
<carlos> so we don't think anything will be done until next week
<carlos> ok
<doko> ok, I'll see, what I can do. I'm working on the weekend however
<carlos> in that case, for the imports is the same as firefox
<carlos> doko, ok
<carlos> the problem comes from the file we should generate on build time
<carlos> pitti, any suggestion?
<pitti> doko: why the split?
<carlos> pitti, so we don't need to rebuild the whole oo.org when a language pack is updated
<pitti> carlos: "the file" == this magical sdf thingy? I don't know what it is for...
<pitti> carlos: ah, I see
<doko> we should not build new binaries, just when we build new language packs
<carlos> pitti, yeah, is a file needed to rebuild the oo language pack, a kind of mapping file
<carlos> pitti, it's a file that your current .po extract script should take care about
<pitti> carlos: well, that file can be taken right out of the source pacake, right?
<carlos> pitti, it's autogenerated when we create the .pot and .po file
<pitti> well, right before we update the source package with rosetta data, we could just call the po/pot extraction process to get the file
<pitti> so,
<pitti> debian/rules extractpo
<pitti> update the po files
<pitti> convert back
<doko> pitti: are you talking about OOo?
<carlos> doko, yeah, talking about OO.org
<pitti> but will that existing sdf file work for completely new languages?
<doko> pitti: not, if OOo isn't prepared for that language. i.e. valencian is not supported
<pitti> doko: ah, so for now we can only update, but not add languages?
<pitti> well, but that is already a huge improvement
<carlos> pitti, the idea is that oo.org will not get new languages after the final release
<pitti> right
<carlos> doko, would pitti's suggestion work?
<doko> pitti: yes, but OOo is already prepared for most languages, even, if there's not yet any translation
<pitti> oh, cool
<carlos> doko, to get the .sdf file on build time again
<carlos> doko, Rosetta will know the sourcepackage version from where the .pot and .po files come
<carlos> so we can provide that information just in case you need exactly that version to refresh the language packs
<carlos> althought anyway, it should not change as the distribution will be frozen, right?
<doko> carlos: ok, if I do have that information, then I need a location, where to for the sdf file
<pitti> doko: I meant, why can't you regenerate the sdf right before updating the po files in the packagea?
<carlos> doko, lets say: $root/po/
<carlos> doko, so we execute the rule to create the .sdf and .po/.pot files again when creating a new language pack version and the files will be stored there (at $root/po/)
<carlos> then we will need to put there the updated .po files
<doko> pitti: where is the old sdf file then?
<doko> I'm unsure, if I do understand you
<carlos> doko, pitti suggest to create it again before doing the po>oo-langpack conversion
<pitti> ok, let's do an example
<pitti> ooo version 1 creates po files
<pitti> rosetta imports them
<pitti> some time advances
<pitti> ooo version 2 wants to update translations
<pitti> (btw, I don't mean oo.o2, just two microreleases)
<doko> pitti: let's start with 1.9.121, assume, that 1.9.123 is going into breezy, and 2.0 into breezy+1 
<pitti> so to update translatiosn in ooo2, do we need the sdf from version 1 or 2?
<doko> don't play around with OOo1
<pitti> no, that's not what I mean, just two different versions
<pitti> ok, so with your numbers
<pitti> to update the translatiosn in 1.9.123, do we need the sdf from 1.9.121 or 1.9.123?
<pitti> if the imported pot file in rosetta came from 1.9.121?
* pitti defines 1:=1.9.121 and 2:=1.9.123
<pitti> (which was my actual idea for abstraction)
<doko> we need the version, that was used for generating the po export
<pitti> ah, ok
<pitti> and that will work with the newer one?
<carlos> doko, ok, lets say that I get the new .pot file from 1.9.123 and merge the .po files with that file, shouldn't that be enough?
<carlos> the .po files merged were from 1.9.121
<carlos> the metadata information should be updated
<pitti> ah, I see
<pitti> that should even be cleaner
<pitti> yes, and we don't need to store the sdf for that
<doko> hmm, I think, rosetta will import a new pot file, and then be able to update the po files?
<pitti> and would ensure 100% compatibility
<carlos> doko, that way, I would be able to use the sdf from 1.9.123 
<carlos> doko, Rosetta will update all .po files every time a new .pot file is uploaded
<carlos> automatically
<pitti> so, it is:
<pitti> - fetch new po files from rosetta
<pitti> debian/rules extractpo
<pitti> (will generate sdf, pot, po)
<pitti> msgmerge the po files with new rosetta data
<pitti> and convert back to ooo format
<pitti> all in one shot
<doko> ok, so why do I need to cope with merging back po files (from an old version) into a new version, if rosetta can do that?
<pitti> just for safety, I guess
<pitti> doko: msgmerge is trivially easy to call
<carlos> doko, just in case the new language pack from oo.org
<carlos> is the first time that is uploaded
<carlos> Rosetta will not get the new .pot file unless the oo.org language pack is imported into Ubuntu's archive
<carlos> so lets say that 1.9.121 is in the archive
<carlos> and you prepare 1.9.123
<carlos> Rosetta will not have that .pot file until you upload it with latest translations from Rosetta (from 1.9.121)
<doko> wait, it does have the 121 pot file, right?
<pitti> yes
<pitti> so msgmerge will filter out obsolete stuff
<doko> ok, we generate the new pot file during the 123 build
<carlos> doko, right
<carlos> and that's why you should merge the .po files from rosetta
<doko> wait, why can't rosetta do that?
<carlos> doko, again, Rosetta will do that when you upload again 123
<doko> what about new translations which come from the new 123 OOo?
<carlos> but Rosetta will not have the 123 .pot file yet
<carlos> only 121
<carlos> doko well, that's a good question, the system will upload them to Rosetta
<doko> carlos: and rosetta cannot generate these during the build?
<pitti> doko: msgmerge will ensure that new translations from upstream aren't lost
<carlos> doko, only if the .pot file is uploaded first into Rosetta
<carlos> pitti, well, it's not so simple
<pitti> but this scenario is a corner case anyway
<carlos> pitti, we are talking about two .po files changed in different places
<pitti> usually we will have more than just one upload of a given upstream version
<pitti> so if that is difficult, we just make it a policy: we don't update translations from rosetta the first time we upload ooo.o
<pitti> that's not a big restriction AFAICS
<carlos> pitti, doko: Ok, lets see it this way...
<doko> pitti: define "first time", is it per version?
<pitti> doko: yes
<pitti> and it is even less a restriction, because:
<carlos> the sourcepackage that will generate the binaries will not generate any .po/.pot files
<pitti> 1) doko uploads ooo_n+1
<pitti> 2) rosetta merges
<doko> pitti: and when a new language is added in an -2 upload?
<pitti> 3) doko uploads ooo-langpacks_n+1
<carlos> pitti, I like that
<pitti> we have split packages anyway, right?
<doko> yes
<carlos> doko, is it doable?
<pitti> so the split package allows us to put rosetta "in between" the new upstream version and the new langpack deb generation
<doko> ok, sounds doable, but a hell of syncing those two
<pitti> doko: well, the sync task remains anyway, right?
<doko> yes
<carlos> doko, that way you don't need to take care about merging anythin
<carlos> doko, and Rosetta will get always the updates from upstream
<carlos> without needing to care about conflicts
* pitti would suggest to switch to abiword and use gettext, but is afraid to be beaten up horribly
<carlos> pitti, abiword does not uses gettext...
<carlos> pitti, they just have the .po generation process integrated into their source packages
<pitti> dudes, that was a mere joke
<pitti> carlos: hm, is there anything in gettext which makes it unusable for office suites?
<pitti> well, nevermind, back to topic
<pitti> so we settled the ooo rosetta update?
<carlos> pitti, portability was an issue. New abiword versions will use it directly
<carlos> pitti, I think so, I will write down all this so you can read it later and improve it until all people is happy
<carlos> doko, ?
<doko> carlos: ?
<doko> ok, about the spec. yes, that sounds good.
<carlos> doko, do you agree? do you have any doubt/question?
<carlos> I know you don't have yet all information, but I will try to give you it with the spec
<doko> I currently cannot see any problems.
<carlos> ok
<doko> I won't export anything for en-us and de
<doko> these are the message-id's, and both languages are normally handled well upstream
<carlos> doko, hmm, that would mean to filter them out on .po export time
<carlos> I will note that on pending things
<carlos> to the spec so we look for a way to do it
<doko> we can add it to the todo list, if the other things work
<carlos> doko, pitti when would you have a new meeting with the spec ready so we can comment it?
<carlos> I think I would have it ready for tomorrow
<carlos> Will send you it by email
<pitti> would be fine for me
<carlos> and after you read it, we would have another meeting (tomorrow or on Friday)
<doko> I'm away until Friday afternoon, no email in this time
<carlos> I will try to get some input from Mark also
<pitti> let's comment with email replies
<carlos> ok
<carlos> then
<pitti> the next meeting should happen if we actually tried out the po extraction in packages
<pitti> s/if/after/
<doko> so, is the next meeting on Monday too late
<doko> ?
<carlos> will open a thread and if we see it needed we try a meeting on Friday afternoon or next week
<carlos> doko, I suppose it's not a big problem as we are not in the same place anyway
<doko> carlos: I can read the spec on Friday, but won't have much done until then
<carlos> so it's a "virtual" meeting
<carlos> doko, don't worry, that would be enough
<pitti> ok, great
<carlos> I will be travelling on Monday
<carlos> not sure if I will have network connection
<carlos> so we are not in a hurry
<carlos> doko, pitti what's our timeline for breezy?
<carlos> so we have this sorted out on time?
<pitti> carlos: I hope you won't get stuck at an airport for 4 hours again :-)
<pitti> carlos: feature freeze is next wednesday
<carlos> pitti, not 4 hours but about 10 hours or so
<carlos> pitti, London link is slow :-(
<pitti> carlos: but breezy goals can be fixed even after that
<carlos> ok, I will try to accelerate all next week
<carlos> so we get languagepacks 100% functional
<pitti> carlos: what about fixing the export in general?
<doko> carlos: hmm, let's see, what we can work out until Tuesday
<carlos> pitti, btw breezy imports are running again
<pitti> the hoary tarball was unusable
<carlos> pitti, that's what I'm talking about
<pitti> ah, cool
<carlos> cool
<carlos> doko, pitti anything else?
<pitti> carlos: was that "space" thingy a bug in rosetta, or a "bug" in a translator? :-)
<carlos> pitti, need to debug, It does not look like a bug in Rosetta, but I need to check it
<pitti> ok, great
<carlos> doko, pitti ok, so if you don't have any other thing....
<carlos> doko, pitti thank you very much for the meeting
<pitti> thank you too
<pitti> have a nice evening then!
<doko> fine, thanks
<carlos> doko, how will be called the source package for the oo language packs?
<doko> hmm, openoffice.org2-l10n ?
<carlos> doko, ok, it's to reference it from the spec
<siretart> motu meeting now?
<dholbach> nope
<dholbach> 22:00 UTC
<siretart> aargl. 
<dholbach> come back in 2 hours *whine*
<siretart> and /me wanted to be in bed in 2h :/
<siretart> ;)
<dholbach> poor you
<dholbach> we're 8 minutes before the meeting
* ajmitch cheers
* dholbach cheerleads
* siretart claps his hands to dholbachs rhythm
<\sh> that's DF ,-) bush drums ,-)
* ogra yawns -ETOOMANYMEETINGS
* Riddell needs to go to bed
<Riddell> shame, could do with a stoodshie with dholbach about modifying .orig tars :)
<dholbach> Riddell: could you lighten me up on stoodshies? :)
<ajmitch> Riddell: we can't just agree now that it should only very rarely be done? :)
<dholbach> Riddell: is there any mudwrestling involved there?
<\sh> hey bddebian seb128 
<bddebian> Howdy \sh
<dholbach> whiprush: !
<whiprush> hey daniel!
<\sh> jorge :)
<ajmitch> whiprush!
<dholbach> :)
<ajmitch> good to see you finally joining in the motu madness ;)
<ajmitch> I'm hungry, need to get some food out of the fridge ;)
<\sh> TheFridge oh no
<\sh> neverending story
<whiprush> heh
<ajmitch> hi azeem 
* \sh is singing limahls song ,-)
<bddebian> Wow, yeah, hi azeem  :-)
<dholbach> you all might want to have a look at the agenda on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting
<dholbach> anybody who wants to chair the meeting?
<\sh> dholbach: u r welcome ,-)
<dholbach> i see :)
<ogra> dholbach, go ahead
<dholbach> hi everybody
<dholbach> we have quite a full agenda
<ogra> <-- Oliver Grawert
* \sh <-- Stephan Hermann
<dholbach> so please try not to flame :-)
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach
* sistpoty is Stefan Potyra
* robitaille is Daniel Robitaille
<bddebian> <-- Barry deFreese
* comadreja is Jorge Daza
<mbreit> \me is Moritz Breit
* whiprush is jorge castro
* ajmitch is AndrewMitchell
* siretart is Reinhard Tartler
* Seveas = dennis kaarsemaker - motu wannabe soon
* janimonoses is selfexplaining
<ogra> Seveas, finally !!
<Seveas> :)
<dholbach> ok is that everybody? :)
<Seveas> i've found a great game i want to package ogra :)
<bddebian> heh
<ogra> hehe
<\sh> dholbach: let's rock :)
<dholbach> our beloved breezy-changes hero stephan \sh hermann wants us to think about the concept of MOTU Taskforces
* Riddell Jonathan Riddell
<dholbach> \sh: do you want to tell us about about the problems that make this necessary
<\sh> sure..but it's not a problem...:)
<siretart> Seveas: talk to me in #ubuntu-motu later about your game package
<\sh> ok...as u all know, we as team have several tasks to do..like those funny transitions, reviews, training of new motus etc.
<\sh> but in times like nowadays, we can't accomplish all tasks with the same team strength, so I was thinking about some type of "load balancing"
<\sh> some members are working on the transitions, some on the reviews, and some others are doing NewMotuTrainings...something like that
<ogra> a MOTULoadBalance team :)
<siretart> ogra: well, MOTU is supposed to do some kind of load balancing anyway ;)
<Seveas> ogra, that would be bureaucracy and work counterproductive
<ogra> (kidding)
<ogra> hey regard the :)
<ogra> ;)
<\sh> all work has always priority 1 as u know ;) and this is a real challenge sometimes
<dholbach> what opinions do you all have on this?
<siretart> \sh: what problem do you want to solve with the creation of teams?
<ogra> \sh, in my eyes the stability of the distro has prio 1 for me... i.e. merges and transitions > reviews
<ajmitch> do you think that having people just working on things isn't enough?
<\sh> siretart: that all work is done in a good timeframe..
<ajmitch> or do you feel that some parts (reviews, etc) get less love?
<\sh> I don't want to have packages waiting for reviews months and months, but if there are some other real work to be done, we need some more hands sometimes
<dholbach> i have one objection: people will always do things they like best - whatever those things are - some are even interested in doing a bit of everything
<ogra> ajmitch, the latter... but i dont cry a tear about it, we can approve them later still
<siretart> well, I don't think the creation of teams itself will give us more manpower..
<\sh> dholbach: yes right...
<\sh> siretart: it's not a team ... 
<\sh> in this case...
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-08-09
<dholbach> that's why i'd like to introduce another idea for solving this: in my opinion what makes a transition a good one, is a good plan
<dholbach> so having somebody responsible for a task who keeps an eye on it, is more important
<\sh> when there are more work then in normal times (breezy is not really normal)
<dholbach> a aalib transition manager or something
<dholbach> for example
<\sh> s/are/is/
<siretart> dholbach: this would my my suggestion/expectations from the teams
<dholbach> the c++ transition was a good example for this - our beloved doko did an awesome job in planning this
<bddebian> dholbach: That's mor along the lines of what I was thinking
<\sh> then we should split up our strength, and say ok, 5 members here, 5 members there and 5 members are doing something else also important
<siretart> dholbach: having a lead and interested people for a specific topic which need to get done
<siretart> the lead should have an overview and be able to explain what is going on
<dholbach> absolutely
<dholbach> write a nice wiki page, with notes about the transition and a list to tick things off - and pushes people into it, creates some party atmosphere behind it all :)
<Seveas> this sounds just like the way tasks are planned already in ubuntu: One lead, perhaps a second and a bunch of worker drones
<ajmitch> dholbach: sounds good, just like what you did for hoary ;)
<bddebian> Seveas: Where is this happening?
<dholbach> ajmitch: thanks for the flowers :-p
<Seveas> bddebian, http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BreezyGoals
<ajmitch> bddebian: breezy goals, lead & seconds were assigned at the kickoff meeting
<\sh> actually, I don't like the lead stuff for those works
<bddebian> Seveas: Ah, nice
<dholbach> \sh: they're not supposed to do the work all themselves
<\sh> dholbach: right..but this I don't mean...
<dholbach> ah ok... maybe i got you wrong
<ogra> \sh, you need a point of contact... someone who is responsible and trys to coordinate a bit
<ajmitch> you want more of a coordinator
<\sh> ok, we have some good members working on sources..the others are working as good reviewers..so everybody has their own field, right?
<dholbach> i'm not quite sure, if all the stuff doesnt really go hand in hand
<dholbach> i mean reviewing and fixing is all about fixing source packages :)
<\sh> so if there is a lot of "source" work to do, those members will help in the transitions, while the others are doing review or new motu trainings etc.
<ogra> yes, both teaches you a lot... you shouldnt do one without the other
<\sh> the rest of the time, it will stay like normal work...merges, new uploads, sourcework, review, training at the same time and everybody is helping
<siretart> \sh: hm. so you want to make people concentrating on one specific topic?
<siretart> I just try to understand you
<\sh> siretart: yes...in busy times like these days e.g.
<ogra> siretart, that would be desirable, but happens anyway imho
<bddebian> Please don't take this the wrong way but are there people concentrating on training new MOTU's?
<\sh> ogra: but u have to see, like those merges now, if we would have this work in our eyes, we wouldn't be in a hurry and we wouldn't be in this situation far away from the timetable
<crimsun> bddebian: we should all be assisting each other.
<siretart> bddebian: let's discuss this later, ok?
<ogra> bddebian, depending on your questions, yes
<bddebian> siretart: ok
<ogra> hey tseng 
<tseng> hi
<\sh> tseng: welcome
<bddebian> welcome tseng 
<dholbach> hey tseng :)
<siretart> hey tseng, how are you?
<ajmitch> morning tseng 
<tseng> i will be just watching I think
<dholbach> tseng: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting - first point
<ogra> \hif everybody had looked at the merge stuff first, we wouldnt have had 250 pkgs there
<dholbach> bddebian: i hope i'll be able to do more on this front in 4 weeks
<ogra> \sh, even
<dholbach> ogra: yes, that's why i suggest some leads organizing the different motu actions
<bddebian> Like I said, don't take that the wrong way.  Everyone has been very helpful, I just don't see a specific "direction" so to speak.
<\sh> ogra: that's what I meant...we had our eyes on something else as prio 1, and forget about those merges
<ogra> dholbach, nope, its a process we must establish... 
<ajmitch> ogra: yeah, I started doing some merges right at the beginning of the breezy cycle with my list
<ajmitch> ogra: but quickly ran out of spare time
<dholbach> ogra: a process like what?
<\sh> ajmitch: so did I during the cxx trans
<ogra> if you touch a package with -ubuntuX version you should always look for mergers first
<comadreja> what about this as a middle point. Somebody dispatching tasks on a "do-it-if-you-can" way ?
<siretart> \sh: the problem I have with this suggestion is, that I have different interests for breezy, and I try to accomplish them all. So focusing on one topic would mean choosing one topic I'd like to accomplish
<ajmitch> ogra: that will reduce forking from debian
<dholbach> ogra: ah ok yes
<comadreja> like writing a wiki page 
<ogra> dholbach, if we do the merges constantly, we dont have this many
<dholbach> ogra: absolutely
<dholbach> comadreja: you mean as in assigning jobs?
<\sh> siretart: actually we all have "different" interessts ... I'm far from being finished with my projects I wanted to accomplish
<ogra> ajmitch, yes, exactly... it will still be a fork, but the changes are smaller
<crimsun> To be fair, though, several MOTUs have been busy otherwise (tritium, dholbach, and myself at least). As I see it, the problem isn't so much one of "we spent too much time doing non-merge stuff" but "we didn't have time at all".
<comadreja> dholbach : like in writing in a wiki page a priority list
<dholbach> comadreja: ah ok, i see
<ajmitch> ogra: well we have to try & keep as close to debian as possible to avoid work for us
<ajmitch> we have to be naturally lazy! ;)
<\sh> crimsun: this is something u will always have for volunteer work
<ogra> crimsun, did you look for every -ubuntuX package you touched at MOM first ? 
<comadreja> that way, every single motu can use their time on that...
<tseng> i dont like MOM
<\sh> crimsun: even ogra is too busy to deal with motu stuff right now...
<dholbach> \sh: do you think planning will be easier, if somebody signs up for such a task force?
<crimsun> ogra: yep, that's how I've been getting back into the MOTU swing of things.
<\sh> dholbach: I think it could help...some things are really showstopping us, right, and other things are just slipped out of our hands
<ogra> crimsun, ah, great ten... i didnt and was hit by it...
<ogra> s/ten/then
<ogra> and many others of us too...
<dholbach> who else thinks that a recruited taskforce will make planning easier?
<bddebian> tseng: Agreed, it does have it's limitations
<ogra> some packages from MOM were already touched in the Cxx transition for example
<comadreja> dholbach : we first need a scheduler :)
<dholbach> comadreja: of course, we need the plan first
<comadreja> I'll join \sh
<\sh> dholbach: if we have a fighting plan (for breezy+1), we know what transitions have to be done, on what we have to have a closer look (MoMs) etc. then we don't need a taskforce for those things
<dholbach> to cap it up a bit: we agreed that we need more planning and maybe guys responsible for that, we too agreed, that we rely on volunteers work
<dholbach> \sh: some things just happend and you can't foresee them, because you're not involved with libxyz's upstream
<ogra> \sh, note, there will be no X and no Cxx transition...
<siretart> \sh: Can you describe what you expect a taskforce to look like? what would be expected from ppl joining a taskforce? give an example
<\sh> dholbach: things like Xorg yes..but this is ok..this will halt everything
<ogra> breezy+1 will be an awesome development cycle
<dholbach> yeah... let's get back to the TASK FORCE concept planning
<\sh> ogra: we will have many bugs for breezy+1
<ajmitch> breezy+1 is going to be different, in that main will be supported by the ubuntu foundation for *5* years
<ajmitch> we need to try & get quality up
<ogra> \sh, yes, but a lot less mass transitions and thus a lot more time to play and develop
<ajmitch> ogra: more recruiting! :)
<ogra> yay !
<\sh> ogra: breezy+1 will be polishing our work now...breezy will  be a desert safari ,-)
<\sh> ok...long story short...
<dholbach> ok, who wants to make a suggestion that goes  beyond  "more organization"
<bddebian> Then you need to either recruit folks that are familiar with hacking/Debian packaging or get some better direction for the NewMOTU process
* bddebian ducks
<ajmitch> bddebian: fine, put your suggestions down somewhere :)
<siretart> ajmitch: I think I have an suggestion for NewMOTU process, more on this later..
<dholbach> ok, as i see it there are 2 options
<ajmitch> siretart: great
<dholbach> 1) just try it out, whatever happens
<\sh> ogra: u r involved in all that main stuff...I would like to take u as a "gateway" with main...to plan some important stuff to accomplish for breezy+1 so we can create something like a  "MOTU project plan"
<dholbach> 2) flesh out the process for such a task forces with all it's implications and go from there again
<crimsun> We could try each having a primary and a secondary "role", if you will. For instance, my primary role would be Mentoring new MOTUs, and my secondary would be Review work (aside from that done as part of mentoring). We could put this on our wiki pages.
<\sh> ogra: just because u guys have a better overview what will come...and even 5 mins before it happens ,-)
<ogra> \sh, sure, lets d that
* siretart likes that role concept
<ogra> do even
<dholbach> ok... shall we put up wiki pages up for those ideas and decide over them again?
<dholbach> this to me sounds like the best plan, since it is more detailed and more goal focused
<siretart> dholbach: I second this suggestion. let's move on
<ajmitch> yep
<\sh> let's do it like that...
<dholbach> \sh: thanks for bringing the point up - as you see - there are lot of opinions on that
<dholbach> point two
<siretart> but may I suggest some procedure for new MOTU's?
<\sh> dholbach: yes...likley :) 
<siretart> it is somehow related to that Team concept
<dholbach> siretart: fire away
<siretart> I propose a mentoring concept for newMOTU's
<ogra> dholbach, why do we need to feed them, they give a grown up impression... they can gra it themselves
<ogra> grab even
<siretart> a bit similar to debian, but not quite. Each new candidate is assigned to one specific motu he uses as mentor
<dholbach> ogra: siretart wanted to add a new team idea in between
<tseng> eh
<ogra> ah,oh, ok
<tseng> people move really fast in motu right now
<tseng> because they can get help from everyone
<siretart> the apprentice and the motu aggree on a workflow how to get packages from the apprentice into universe
<\sh> siretart: gentoo has this concept
<siretart> this may or may not be using revu
<ajmitch> tseng: they wouldn't be limited to this one person, but they'd be their primary contact
* ogra doesnt like the mentor concept at all
<ajmitch> ogra: what's wrong with it?
<siretart> \sh: I don't know how gentoo works, can you elaborate?
<ajmitch> too much workload on existing motus?
<dholbach> siretart: what i like about the current process is it's openness
<ogra> it drags people more away into a secret corner... i see this with my google students, they arenot very active in the motu world, even if there are often people that could help them better then me
<\sh> siretart: as u explained...when u want to get the dev status quo for gentoo, u need to have a mentor, which guides u through the whole infra structure and things like that, explains what is important in building ebuilds (in our case debian/*) etc.
<dholbach> siretart: so more people have a good image of how a motu hopeful proceeds
<tseng> ogra: right.
<ogra> it tears down the amount of work done with the whole tem
<ogra> team
<siretart> ok. I see the point raised by dholbach and ogra.
* tseng still thinks gentoo is broken
<dholbach> siretart: but this is a point we will have to discuss soon
<dholbach> siretart: you were right in bringing this up
<\sh> siretart: but the other devs don't know the "apprentice" at this time...and most of the times, the new devs will do whatever they want...
<ajmitch> right, you don't want the big happy family to be dysfunctional
<siretart> I don't want to take the newbees into secret corners. they should work with the community
<siretart> the problem I want to solve is another one:
* ogra guesses after breezy+1, when we have lots and lots more people to manage
<ajmitch> as the team grows, we don't want new MOTUs to get lost in the cracks
<\sh> tseng: it's broken yes
<siretart> having a mentor, an apprentice has a an advocate, which really know about the packaging skills of his apprentice
<\sh> tseng: but it's not against gentoo..it's against their governance :(
<dholbach> what do you think about this: shall a motu-process2 team sit together and throw some ideas together and form a "spec"?
<siretart> so this mentoring concept is rather a more formal process of having packages sponsored
<dholbach> over which we can decide more formally?
<siretart> dholbach: perhaps this would be an idea.
<dholbach> any other opinions?
<ajmitch> dholbach: we might need to schedule another meeting soon then 
<dholbach> yes
<siretart> I'll try to write up my ideas on a wiki page and present them the next meeting
<ajmitch> unless we do our debating on the wiki
<dholbach> super, thanks siretart 
<dholbach> it think it's better to have ideas more fleshed out, before we decide
<siretart> this won't be before next week ;)
<dholbach> may we get to point 2 now?
<\sh> yes
<ogra> siretart, we meet once a month ;)
<ajmitch> please do..
<ogra> take your time
<dholbach> i proposed this one: "Proceedings of feeding UniverseNewPackages (and Andrew's RFP list) to utnubu-discuss."
<dholbach> because i found that most of our NEW packages are not announced anywhere and just "end up in the archive"
<dholbach> don't you think we should push them more into the debian direction?
<ajmitch> dholbach: agreed, very important
<ogra> why do we need to feed them, they give a grown up impression... they can grab it themselves lets just point them there
<ajmitch> at the last meeting we resolved to file these RFPS
<dholbach> there were only SOME reactions RFP/ITP-wise from our side
<dholbach> ogra: yeah, but *nearly* nobody does it at the moment
<ogra> ajmitch, now there is an active group in debian....
<dholbach> so i think this should be more of a policy
<ogra> dholbach, what ? 
<ajmitch> ogra: I know, I see you're in the group
<siretart> well, I don't think that it would be very much efford announcing new addition to universe to the utnubu mailing list
<dholbach> that the package needs to be announced
<\sh> ogra: u r involved in that utnubu thing
<dholbach> siretart: ++
<ajmitch> I've got to get involved there too
<siretart> and I think nometa and other debian developers would really appreciate it
<dholbach> \sh, ogra: yes?
* ajmitch has been saying that for awhile though
<\sh> ogra: how is the mood towards ubuntu patches and new packages at all?
<ogra> dholbach, they have browsers eyes and are able to read... lets point them to the page and they can care themselves
<luis_> could you create an rss feed from your current tools, and ask them to subscribe to that for timely/reliable info?
<ogra> \sh, its ok... the tone is rougher...
<ogra> luis_, sure
<\sh> ogra: rougher? 
<Seveas> luis_, there are RSS feeds for Ubuntu uploads
<\sh> ogra: in what way?
<siretart> \sh: I think it is generally very mixed and depends whom you ask. the utnubu guys seem to be very colaborative.
<ogra> but my opinion is that we have enough work to do here... putting this stuff on a wiki page for them is already nice and makes their job easier
<dholbach> i think it's no problem for anybody to write a mail: "hey, this is my package, it's in the archive, if you have questions, feel free to ask me"
<ogra> but in the end its *their* job
<dholbach> ogra: nobody does that either
<\sh> actually, I can tell only about my experiences with some maintainers...
<dholbach> an RSS feed in my opinion is not much of a "relationship", although it's convenient
<\sh> and these exp. are really mixed
<ogra> dholbach, i dont know since when youre subscribed to -utnubu-devel, but they already have tools to produce theur lists
<siretart> dholbach: this could be the last step of work of the reviewing team, if a package is accepted into universe, write a small mail for that. I think I could hack something up like that for revu2..
<dholbach> ogra: i read all the threads
<dholbach> who is opposed to add "announce it on utnubu" to our MOTUNewPackagesPolicy?
<ogra> dholbach, its their job as import team... its nice of us to offer them something, but i refuse to do their job
<dholbach> ogra: we're not going to make them debian compliant or uploading or do whatever to the debian archive
<comadreja> dholbach : I also think it's their job
<dholbach> ok... any other opinions?
<ogra> dholbach, if there are problems with a particular package i'm happy to help if they ask... but still they want to be the ubuntu import team...
<dholbach> i never thought we'd have that response to writing a mail
<\sh> ogra: can u give me the subscription address for this utnubu-devel ML? i only see -discuss and -maintainers
<comadreja> dholbach : that mail could be automated
<ogra> \sh, its on alioth.debian.org
<ogra> \sh, search for utnubu
<ogra> \sh, i meant -discuss above, sorry
<\sh> ogra: ah ok :)
<seb128> dholbach: don't annonce stuff on utnubu 
<ajmitch> ogra: perhaps I should try & make it more part of my MOTU responsibilites then?
<dholbach> ok... we seem to cannot agree here and will rely on volunteer action
<dholbach> seb128: it think it's ok to announce a new package there - do you think that's a problem or might make us run into problems?
<seb128> it's not ok
<CarlFK> I didn't see anyone opposed to the rss feed idea
<ogra> ajmitch, i dont see it as a motu responsibility... i see itas a responsibility to make the info public available, but thats all
<seb128> this project is not fine
<\sh> dholbach: I think with new packages not in debian they will come with RFP/ITP process...
<dholbach> i think we can just offer
<siretart> seb128: what are your objections to utnubu?
<dholbach> ogra: i was talking about making info public available, nothing else :)
<seb128> ie: I don't want somebody to just take GNOME stuff from Ubuntu, to put them on the utnubu SVN and non maintain them from here
<seb128> Debian expects some quality
<dholbach> but it might be a start of working together on stuff
<seb128> if somebody wants to maintain a GNOME stuff with Debian he should rather work with pkg-gnome
<ogra> dholbach, you were talking about announcing it to utnubu, which may end in endless discussions... i dont like to waste my time with that
<siretart> seb128: I think that was not nometa's intention
<seb128> ie: with people interesting on that
<dholbach> ogra: announcing, not discussing details :)
<seb128> s/interesting/interested/
<ogra> dholbach, you end up with this... see gparted... i dont see the last word spoken there
<seb128> dholbach: that's not the place to announce, stuff
<seb128> they will grab them
<dholbach> ogra: that's one case - you can't judge a project after 3-4 weeks
<seb128> upload them here rather than at the right place
<ogra> dholbach, nope, i know...
<seb128> and non-maintain them
<dholbach> ok, we had quite some interesting points here... :)
<dholbach> ok, looking at the time, we might hop over to point 3 - is that ok for you?  
<siretart> please
<seb128> if somebody is interested to do the job for Debian he can do it correctly and join the appropriate team and working with thel
<seb128> them
<seb128> dholbach: go :)
<dholbach> Trashing of MOTUNewPackages and MOTUToReview in favour of REVU
<dholbach> the pages are momentarily just lying around
<\sh> dholbach: when it's in the proper place on an own linode
<dholbach> and nobody cares after them, some packages already got uploaded to REVU
<dholbach> \sh: i'm solely talking about the wiki pages mentioned
<\sh> I will clean them up...on sunday
<\sh> dholbach: yes...
<dholbach> \sh: we are discussing the point now :)
<dholbach> does anybody feel we should keep them for a bit of time?
<siretart> \sh: have you heard any news about the linode server?
<\sh> siretart: no ... I will poke mdz or mako 
<\sh> or jane?
<dholbach> or elmo?
<ogra> \sh, rather elmo
<\sh> someone :)
<\sh> or elmo
<siretart> \sh: great. I haven't had time the last weeks. next week I think I will have more time to work on revu
<dholbach> ok? anybody who wants to keep them to not annoy people who mentioned their package there?
<siretart> I think I read that the common lisp team has packages for review there..
<siretart> what about packages which are on the package, but not uploaded yet to revu?
<\sh> what about this: <h1>THESE PAGES WILL BE REMOVED IN THE NEAR FUTURE</h1> <h2>Please upload your packages to REVU</h2> on the first two lines?
<ogra> yep, thats there since a month
<tseng> and email -devel
<\sh> yep
<dholbach> yeah, we maybe should do that
<dholbach> keep them for a brief period of time
<dholbach> and announce their disposal
<dholbach> agreed
<dholbach> robitaille: are you there? point 4 is your point :)
<robitaille> yes I'm here.  
<ajmitch> bug squashing!
<dholbach> introduce us into the delights of malone assigning :)
<robitaille> Should Malone bugs on Universe packages be assigned to MOTU members, or leave them unassigned?
<ajmitch> as an aside, we should have a bug squashing party ;)
<ajmitch> robitaille: assign them
<robitaille> I have seen 2 positive feedback and one negative to the few I did recently
<ajmitch> otherwise we don't see them
<siretart> ++
<tseng> i have no attention in even looking at bugs that are mass assigned to me
<tseng> just one opinion
<ogra> ajmitch, we have bugday every wednesday, since 2 months
<dholbach> robitaille: i'm for it as well
<tseng> i have my own bugs
<ajmitch> tseng: you're different, in that you mainly focus on mono
<tseng> yes.
<ogra> ajmitch, tseng is on the teamlist
<ajmitch> ogra: sure, but how often do people hear about that?
<ogra> so he gets the bugmails
<ajmitch> ogra: I know
<\sh> well...we can assign them to the team and then can somebody pick up his favorite
<ogra> ajmitch, you dont need to tell me that i suck as bugmaster ;)
<dholbach> ok, how shall we deal with this?
<robitaille> and there are maybe 250-300 bugs on universe packages.  THat's could be a lot of traffic
<ajmitch> ogra: haha, I didn't mean that ;)
<ogra> ajmitch, but i... i'd love to get rid of that job :)
<ajmitch> ogra: search for willing victims :)
<dholbach> ogra: can we add a mailing list for assigned bugs?
<dholbach> ogra: so we don't annoy people with millions of bug mails
* ajmitch spots luis_ hiding in the crowd
<dholbach> ogra: i don't remember the last state
<ogra> dholbach, why dilys is posting every new bug in #ubuntu-bugs
<ogra> ajmitch, yes, i saw him too :)
<dholbach> ogra: but i'm not on irc 24h
<ajmitch> ogra: irc isn't the best place for bug notification
<dholbach> ajmitch: ++
<ajmitch> it's useful, for sure
<ogra> ajmitch, dholbach dilys can be easily modified to feed to rss i guess
<ajmitch> I've spotted bugs there & started on the fixing because of dilys
<robitaille> I like the dilys announcements...a good way to do quick bug triage on the spot
<dholbach> ok, how can we have MOTUs in the MOTU team (for visibility), but not annoy them with sometimes useless bug mails
<ogra> since she already entertains us with her prose :)
<dholbach> ok, don't we have a solution for that yet?
<ogra> dholbach, thats a question  to the launchpad team
<dholbach> a mailing list for motu bug mails would be cool
<\sh> ogra: how fast can dilys be changed for feeding rss?
<dholbach> ogra: i recall to already have asked the question - or maybe you did it
<ogra> \sh, no idea... its not my baby
* ajmitch will have to find a decent rss reader then
<\sh> ajmitch: akregator ;)
<ogra> dholbach, i think kiko said its trivial iirc
<dholbach> ok
<ajmitch> \sh: I said *decent* :)
<dholbach> so we defer this question until we have a launchpad answer
<\sh> ajmitch: ffox ;)
<siretart> sistpoty: we need rss feeds for revu2 ;)
<ajmitch> \sh: besides, I do a fair bit of work remotely
<dholbach> is that ok with you?
<\sh> sistpoty: rss2 please with full comments ;)
<sistpoty> siretart: ack ;)
<ogra> dholbach, yep... o with me...
<ogra> ok
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> common REVU practices - there are two topics I can think of, which got discussed on REVU - maybe we should have a bit of bendable policy and an agreement here
<dholbach> 1)  config.{guess,sub} in the diff (relying on build hosts' build system vs. clean diff)
<dholbach> 2)  changing .ORIG.tar.gz (sorry, I'm a bit biased)
<dholbach> :)
<\sh> aehm
<dholbach> opinions on how to deal with that kind of stuff :)
<\sh> 1) i don't like copies of config.{guess,sub} in the clean targets of the rules...
<ogra> i thinkwe should hear a very experienced package for 1)
<ogra> packager even
<siretart> ajmitch: how do you think about this topic, with your DD hat on ;)
* ajmitch hates having a messy diff
<\sh> they're messing sometimes the who diff.gz so I put them in the configure target before ./configure
<bddebian> heh
<Riddell> \sh: you mean removing copies in the clear targets?
<ajmitch> siretart: I've been a MOTU longer than a DD ;)
<\sh> Riddell: yep
<siretart> hehe
<\sh> or the build management is so intelligent to remove those diffs from diff.gz
<ajmitch> but I don't like having a diff with that mess
<\sh> Riddell: and putting them in the configure target or config.sub
<dholbach> i think there is clearly clearability of the diff  versus  relying on build systems' config.{guess,sub}
<dholbach> (and we're talking about two files)
<Riddell> \sh: what's wrong with removing it in debian/rules clean?
<siretart> I see general agreement leaving config.{guess,sub} out for nicer .diff.gz (and therefore, better reviewability)
<ogra> Riddell, its about *adding* it there
<tseng> thats a pet peeve of mine
<tseng> i cant stand that stuff in the diff
<\sh> Riddell: dh_make templates is not removing them in debian/rules clean, they're copying it from build system
<\sh> Riddell: so the diff.gz or debdiffs are getting messy with this crap
<tseng> hi mdz :)
<\sh> Riddell: it you move it from clean target to configure target u won't see them in the diff.gz or debdiff
<mdz> I can't be fully attentive but if you have specific questions I can try to answer
<dholbach> we're trying to arrange a bendable agreement on point 5 of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting
<dholbach>  config.{guess,sub} in the diff (relying on build hosts' build system vs. clean diff)     and      changing .ORIG.tar.gz
<siretart> mdz: the current topic is if config.{guess,sub} should be deleted in debian/rules clean target
<dholbach> because the reviewers suggested different "solutions"
<mdz> I am not a fan of updating those files during the build in the first place
<ogra> by default dh_make places the copying of these files in the clean target, that means i clutter my diff.gz totally... whats the rationale for that
<dholbach> be back in a minute
<Riddell> \sh: so move the  rm -f config.{guess,sub} from debian/rules clean to debian/rules configure?  how it that more elegant?
<\sh> Riddell: it's not about rm -f config.{guess,sub} it's about cp -f /usr/share/misc/config.{guess,sub} $(CURDIR) in clean target
<ogra> Riddell, its the cp that puts them into your sourcetree, not the rm....
<seb128> just use cdbs :p
<ajmitch> seb128: sadly we can't convert the world to cdbs :)
<bddebian> Why not? ;-)
<mdz> doing a build and then cleaning the tree should give you back the same tree you started with
<ogra> it is done in the clean target by default, while it could be done with a build-dep on autotools-dev which makes sure the fils are the most recent and saves space in the diff
<ajmitch> mdz: isn't that part of the automated testing spec?
<dholbach> the readability isnt such a big point when you're talking about two files, is it?
<mdz> ajmitch: possibly?
<mdz> so if 1) you are updating config.* during the build, and 2) the build is being done in-tree, then you need to restore the files, not delete them
<ogra> dholbach, if you make only a dependency change the difference is *huge*
<ajmitch> I think pitti was talking about that, but that's another matter
<mdz> that is what cdbs does, I believe
<dholbach> ogra: and you rely on the build system's config.{sub,guess}, which is the whole point of copying them in before, NOT relying on the build system, but on your patch
<siretart> so the approach dh_make uses is broken?
<mdz> dh_make is broken in all sorts of ways
<sistpoty> siretart: i think so... at least the templates that come from it (iirc)
<\sh> ok...
<\sh> this is an example
<ogra> dholbach, but since they carry the descriptions of supported arches etc, i dont see the point not to take them from the build system... they'll match the build system... and in my eyes they are part of the tools, not of the source
<\sh>         -test -r /usr/share/misc/config.sub && \
<\sh>           cp -f /usr/share/misc/config.sub config.sub
<\sh>         -test -r /usr/share/misc/config.guess && \
<\sh>           cp -f /usr/share/misc/config.guess config.guess
<\sh> in clean target before dh_clean
<dholbach> shall we take this question to the mailing list and proceed to the next one? :)
<\sh> so debuild is calling debian/rules clean first, copies the build systems config.{guess,sub} to the $(CURDIR) and messes the diff..this is what dh_make gives u as template...and many packages are using it
<dholbach> oh sorry, \sh wanted to say something
<\sh> example: atlas-cpp
<dholbach> \sh: it doesnt "mess" for the sake of it
<siretart> from the discussions we had, I'd consider that pattern in debian/rules broken
<ajmitch> \sh: right, cdbs has a fair bit of stuff in /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/buildcore.mk & other files for handling this
<ogra> me too
<dholbach> \sh: it's there for a good reason - even lintian complains about too old config.{guess,sub} for a reason
<siretart> it fails to restore the package state
<ogra> dholbach, but it describes the capabilitys of the build tools, so why not use the ones from the actual build system
<\sh> dholbach: i don't mind to copy that stuff..but not in the clean target, cause the diff is generated after debian/rules clean 
<dholbach> \sh: if you copy it in, it will always be in the diff
<ogra> dholbach, it will be always new in every diff...
<\sh> dholbach: not if the tree is cleaned correctly...it copies the stuff only, when config.{guess,sub} is not in place
<ogra> dholbach, which is a total waste
<seb128> these file are updated because that's required to build on some archs
<\sh> but it's build time..not cleaning time...
<dholbach> (especially for all those packages in debian that weren't touched for like two decades.... :))
<\sh> so it should be in those parts where the build is done..and not where the build stuff is cleaned up
<dholbach> but then you don't have control over what you upload, you rely on the build hosts config.{sub,guess}
<ogra> seb128, yes, but why not updating them on the actual build system they use... i.e. at buildtime...
<seb128> that's what cdbs does
<seb128> dholbach: you don't want to use your version, autotools-dev has the reference versions known to work
<\sh> seb128: that's what I said...put this piece of code in debian/rules configure target before the ./configure call...
<ogra> ah, so my doing isnt wrong then :)
<ajmitch> ogra: no, that's what we're arguing about ;)
<mdz> the best solution would be to modify autoconf, upstream, to use the newer of the installed file and the one shipped with the package
<dholbach> seb128: i want to use the version, i have locally on my disk, which procudes my diff :)
<mdz> then this problem goes away entirely
<seb128> dholbach: why? 
<mdz> it's the way it should have worked in the first place
<ogra> dholbach, that might be outdated at buildtime...
<mdz> I suggest proposing that to the upstream maintainer with a description of our situation
<ogra> ok...
<dholbach> mdz: which upstream?
<dholbach> mdz: every single one of each package?
<ogra> any objections when we go on to use the ones on the buildd until thats fixed ?
<mdz> dholbach: autoconf upstream, as I said
<dholbach> mdz: ah ok
<dholbach> mdz: thanks
<dholbach> ok, seems like we should proceed to the next time :)
<bddebian> Are we making any decisions? ;-)
<dholbach> what do you all think about chaging orig.tar.gz?
<ogra> bddebian, thats rare in motu meetings... 
<ajmitch> dholbach: I don't like it
<ogra> ;)
<ogra> me neither
<\sh> bddebian: yes we're contacting the autotools (god) upstream maintainer ;)
<ajmitch> dholbach: and it should only be done where really really necessary
<seb128> don't touch the orig.tar.gz
<dholbach> i know cases of packaging cvs exported stuff, where a ./autogen.sh && make dist is in order
<ajmitch> exceptions are license issues, where you have to cut out undistributable source
<dholbach> but that's all i'd allow policy-wise
<ogra> seb128, what do you do with cvs checked out stuff... dont you remove the CVS dirs ?
<\sh> dholbach: why don't u call ./autogen during build time? ,-)
<dholbach> ogra: cvs export
<ajmitch> ogra: do that in debian/rules
<dholbach> \sh: you don't do that :)
<seb128> ogra: I use "make dist" which makes a proper tarball
<Riddell> changing .orig.tar.gz is fine for removing upstream debian/ directories
<seb128> no
<\sh> dholbach: for cvs stuff of course...cause the original tarball is cvs exported...
<siretart> debian policy suggests the target get-orig-source
<siretart> This target fetches the most recent version of the original source package from a canonical archive site (via FTP or WWW, for example), does any necessary rearrangement to turn it into the original source tar file format described below, and leaves it in the current directory.
<seb128> replacing the debian/ dir can go to the diff.gz
<dholbach> seb128: ++ even if it looks ugly
<seb128> it's not ugly
<dholbach> seb128: in the diff - and i don't care about that :)
<dholbach> seb128: i'm not opposing
<seb128> k :)
<seb128> -- other way :p
<dholbach> but it's very hard to check hwo the source was altered
<dholbach> and i ALWAYS do that when reviewing packages
<dholbach> and you should imho do that too
<ajmitch> my debian sponsor told me off for repacking the orig tarball :)
* siretart would rather prefer the wig and pen format, I how this will be allowed soon in the archive
<ogra> dholbach, please... indeed everybody does that :)
<dholbach> in that perspective chainging orig.tar.gz is not very nice
<dholbach> ogra: yes?
<ogra> dholbach, sure... at least every reviewer i know around here
<Riddell> I've also had tar files which are badly made upstream and arn't distcleaned, that should be tidied for .orig.tar.gz in my opinion
<dholbach> ogra: i never did see such a comment on REVU expept my own :)
<ogra> dholbach, you need to be more around on IRC ;-p
<ajmitch> there is the other exception - cdbs & tarball.mk
<seb128> if upstream tarball is not nice speak with upstream to get that fixed
<dholbach> Riddell: i think it's more important to lart upstream and get it fixed in the diff :)
<\sh> the question is, when you generate a CVS/SVN snapshot..is it a real orig.tar.gz or should we handle it in some other way
<tseng> \sh: look at evolution-sharp
<seb128> dholbach: exactly :)
<tseng> evolution-sharp_0.6.99+0.7.orig.tar.gz
<\sh> tseng: u made a diff from 0.699 to 0.7...
<dholbach> siretart: i never heard of that target before - i'll have a look into it, thanks for the pointer
<\sh> ?
<tseng> no, i made a snapshot of the 0.7 branch
<siretart> dholbach: it is an optinal target, though. But mentioned in debian policy, so I'd consider that as semi official target
<\sh> tseng: and u called autogen.sh and created your own tarball?
<dholbach> siretart: i'll look into it :)
<tseng> autogen and make dist
<ajmitch> \sh: that's a standard way to do it
<ajmitch> \sh: since there is no existing tarball
<siretart> dholbach: section 4.8
<dholbach> cvs exports are an exceptional case i think
<ogra> dholbach, isnt that what the debian/watch file is for ?
<Riddell> I also change .orig from tar when using unsermake but upstream has made the tar for automake
<seb128> all the changes can go to the diff.gz
<Riddell> seb128: that makes for a muckle .diff.gz
<ogra> seb128, s/can/should
<dholbach> who took notes for PackagingTips?
<ajmitch> ok, so do we have any agreement here?
<Riddell> and some changes can't go in .diff e.g. removing files
<ogra> Riddell, sure they can
* ajmitch wants to get this meeting wrapped up :)
<\sh> too many ways are leading to mekkah
<Riddell> ogra: removing files can't, means you need to add explicit rm -f  lines to debian/rules
<bddebian> heh
<ogra> ajmitch, bah, youre just volunteering for a review day master job and cant wait... be patient !
<dholbach> i think it's crucial, to encourage new motus to work tidily, to just grab upstream's tarball, apply their changes to it and not let them rip out what they want to make something "easier"
<ogra> Riddell, and ? 
<Riddell> tidier and less error prone to just fix the upstream tar for the .orig
<siretart> sorry folks, I need to leave now. See you tomorrow
<\sh> cu siretart 
<bddebian> Later siretart 
<sistpoty> gn8 siretart
<ajmitch> ogra: oh sure, it's my wildest dream ;)
<ogra> ;)
<dholbach> the problem as i see it, is: it's harder to track what people did to the code, people from other distributions/other developers have no clue, what they did to upstreams code, in my eyes it might even lead to security - imagine a new motu uploading a "modified" upstream source - you'd just read .diff.gz and not recognize what happened
<ogra> Riddell, but breaking a holy rule :)
<\sh> dholbach: changing upstreams code only via patch in debian/rules patch 
<dholbach> bye siretart 
<seb128> dholbach: md5sum should match upstream one
<ajmitch> dholbach: I agree, someone reviewing should ideally be able to grab the tarball off upstream's site, confirm md5sum is what you have, and use it
<dholbach> \sh: that's what we're talking about
<tseng> im not sure why we even need to talk about this :)
<dholbach> seb128: that's what i'm saying: never change the upstream orig.tar.gz :)
<tseng> it seems obvious.
<dholbach> ajmitch: that's what i do
<ajmitch> tseng: it is obvious, but not everyone does it
<\sh> dholbach: but this is the rule ;) 
<dholbach> ok, then we can all agree on pushing people to lart upstream, if the code/buildsystem is buggy and fix it in .diff.gz, right?
<seb128> yep
<dholbach> super
<tseng> ++
<dholbach> i love you guys
<dholbach> last point on the agenda
* seb128 hugs dholbach
<dholbach> ajmitch: do it! :)
<dholbach> seb128: :))))
<\sh> dholbach: this is what we're doing all the time..fixing stuff from upstream via patch/dpatc
<\sh> h
<ajmitch> dholbach: why me? ;)
<ogra> yeah, ajmitch for REVIEW MASTER !!
<dholbach> ajmitch: it's your point
<bddebian> ++
<ajmitch> ok, I'm not applying for ReviewMaster, but we need to review *more*! :)
<Riddell> dholbach: I trust you'll inform debian's ftpmasters of that policy then
<\sh> ajmitch: come on...push us ,-) 
<ogra> ajmitch, to late... you got the job now :)
<ajmitch> dholbach's enthusiasm for review days is great
<ajmitch> so I think they need to be a regular part of our calendar
<ajmitch> and we need to keep the list as short as possible
<ajmitch> of course, feel free to do reviewing at anytime you can
<ogra> ajmitch, dholbach will soon have a new job that draws his time.... dont expect him to be much more active then me
<ogra> (in motu land)
<dholbach> Riddell: i think we established reasons for doing it that way
<ajmitch> ogra: yeah, don't expect anyone here to have lots of free time
<ogra> ajmitch, and since you brought it up .... :)
<ogra> ajmitch, i dont ...
<ajmitch> looks like I've got another cap then?
<dholbach> ogra: you seem to know more than i do
<ajmitch> dholbach: sure, you'll probably find out about your job responsibilities the day you start (or later) :)
<dholbach> i always had review days in mind like a measure to catch up on the always growing lists
<\sh> ok...last point now...last cigarette
<ogra> dholbach, just guessing from experience
<ogra> ;)
<dholbach> \sh: i have no papers left
<ogra> dholbach, next meeting date and time
<ajmitch> review days are a good time to make sure that the new guys are around to talk to
<dholbach> i hope we'll find a way to get them sorted soon
<dholbach> ajmitch: yeah that's true
<ajmitch> ogra: 2 weeks or 4?
<dholbach> ok... when will be next 1) review day 2) motu meeting?
<ogra> we had said 4 once
<\sh> ogra: between the last one and now were only 2 ;)
<ogra> but if itsrewuired, we should change it
<ajmitch> dholbach: next review day in 2 weeks
<\sh> as I remember
<ogra> \sh, the last one was postponed 2 weeks
<ogra> so it were actually 6
<ajmitch> by 'day' we mean a 48-hour period or more :)
<dholbach> ajmitch: ok, i'll do an announce - august 18th?
<\sh> ogra: oh yes
<ajmitch> dholbach: sounds good
<dholbach> ok, next review day august 18th
<\sh> 2.9 + 14 days?
<ogra> dholbach, calendar ? 
<dholbach> next motu meeting when?
<\sh> 16
<\sh> fits
<dholbach> ogra: i'll do it
<ogra> great...
<dholbach> so when will it be?
<dholbach> which time?
<dholbach> the motu meeting
<ogra> this current meeting isnt mentioned... we are lost without your care dholbach 
<ajmitch> dholbach: 3 weeks? :)
<ajmitch> does this time of day suit people?
<dholbach> a bit earlier :)
<ajmitch> ok
<dholbach> ogra: it is
<ogra> iwouldnt say it suits, but better then 6:00 UTC 
<ajmitch> 20:00 UTC?
<bddebian> Aye
<bddebian> ajmitch: 20:00 is good
<dholbach> yeah
<ajmitch> great
<comadreja> ++
<dholbach> which date?
<ajmitch> 8am for me, not too hard :)
<ogra> dholbach, since when, i imported the calendar yesterday 
* \sh is not available from 29th august to 12th septembre
<ajmitch> dholbach: 3 weeks from now is the 24th
<ajmitch> if you want it that soon
<ajmitch> we've got a few things for the agenda already
<dholbach> ok
<ogra> dholbach, haha... 4th 00:00 *g* its there since ~2h it seems, sorry for the noise
<dholbach> ogra: 3rd 22:00 utc
<ogra> dholbach, my evo translates the TZ to localtime :)
<dholbach> ah ok
<dholbach> ok
<ogra> so it shows up for the 4th
<dholbach> one last thing: who will do a quick wrap up for the mailing lists?
<dholbach> a quick one
<ogra> i already missed the last one...
<dholbach> i won't have the time this time
* bddebian needs to check out some mailing lists apparently
<ogra> me neither 11th is feature freeze
<\sh> bddebian will do it ,-)
* ajmitch won't have time until saturday for summaries
<dholbach> i'll do the announces of the next meetings/review days - thanks everybody - you guys rock! :)
<ajmitch> dholbach: great, thanks
<bddebian> \sh: Sure pretty easy.  "No decisions were made"
* bddebian hides
<ogra> bddebian, volunteering to write a wrap up ? 
<ajmitch> so who will summarise? bddebian, or shall I volunteer? :)
* dholbach hugs bddebian 
<\sh> bddebian: ;) http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/
<ogra> bddebian, thanks :)
<dholbach> just describe the points on the agenda and 2 sentences on what we decided/discussed :)
<ajmitch> looks like it's been decided for poor bddebian 
<bddebian> Aye, wtf? :-)
<ajmitch> bddebian: I can do it if you prefer
<ajmitch> but it will take a couple of days for me to get to
<\sh> bddebian: actually u r a native speaker...so when I will write all this...damn my english teacher will kill me ,-)
<dholbach> good night :)
<ajmitch> night dholbach 
<\sh> ajmitch: let bddebian do it ;)
<bddebian> ajmitch: I wouldn't mind but between not being an MOTU nor being on the ML, maybe you should?
<bddebian> gnight dholbach 
<sistpoty> night dholbach
<\sh> bddebian: u will write...and I will post
<comadreja> nite
<\sh> cu guys...
<ogra> ciao dholbach 
<\sh> good night even :)
<mbreit> good night...
<\sh> bddebian: deal?
<bddebian> \sh: deal
<\sh> bddebian: ok :)
<ajmitch> alright..
<ogra> bddebian, http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-March/005093.html
<bddebian> Can I hit it tomorrow morning, my time?
<\sh> bddebian: and u'll find the logs of this meeting on http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ so u know what to summarize
* sistpoty is bigger than bed now
<\sh> bddebian: yes
<ogra> bddebian, you can hit it every time you like...
<bddebian> heh
<sistpoty> gn8 everybody
<bddebian> gnight sistpoty 
<ajmitch> night sistpoty 
* \sh has only 4 hours left to sleep :(
<bddebian> Go to bed :-)
<\sh> will do right now :)
* ajmitch still has an afternoon & more of work to get through
<bddebian> I gotta go play with the kids, catch you all later
<bddebian> ajmitch: Have fun :-)
<ogra> ciao bddebian and thanks :)
<\sh> bddebian: play soccer ;)
<bddebian> ogra: np
<\sh> ok...good night gentlemen :) cu later this morning ;)
<bddebian> \sh: Aye :)
<bddebian> gnight \sh
<ogra> \sh, sleep well
<\sh> trying to :)
<ajmitch> someone can put the next meeting & review days on the calendar?
* ajmitch does it..
<janimonoses> good night all
<ajmitch> hmm, will do after lunch, someone remind me then :)
<robitaille> ajmitch: I can do it a bit later when I update my ics file
<ogra> ajmitch, dholbach said he would 
<ajmitch> robitaille: dholbach has it open for editing
<ajmitch> so I'll leave that to him
<robitaille> these daniels are so good at updates... :)
<ogra> heh
<ogra> what would we dou without you :)
<ogra> s/dou/so
<ogra> do
<ogra> grrrr
<cyphase> hey everyon
<cyphase> everyone*
<ajmitch> hello
<ajmitch> bye all
<robitaille> cyphase:  looking for a meeting?
<Seveas> robitaille, this isn't a dating channel ;)
<tseng> its not?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Calendar - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 5 Aug 20:00 UTC: NUN http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda | 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda | 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda | 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: CC http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda | 24 Aug 20:00 UTC: MOTU http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUMeeting
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:JaneW] : Calendar - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ |5 Aug 19:00 UTC BreezyGoals Update | 5 Aug 20:00 UTC: NUN http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda | 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda | 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda | 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: CC http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda | 24 Aug 20:00 UTC: MOTU http://wiki
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:JaneW] : Calendar - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ |5 Aug 15:00 UTC BreezyGoals Update | 5 Aug 20:00 UTC: NUN http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda | 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda | 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda | 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: CC http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda | 24 Aug 20:00 UTC: MOTU http://wiki
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-08-10
<Kamion> aargh, I have an urgent thing I've just remembered about that I need to buy today before the shops close; I'm going to be a little late for the goals update, sorry
<Kamion> hopefully ~10 minutes
<JaneW> ok
<JaneW>  *** Reminder: Special BreezyGoals Update Meeting in 5 mins time  ***
<pitti> Hi
<Nafallo> hi pitti :-)
<baggins> can i say hello too?
* baggins is just here to watch really.
<dholbach> JaneW: daniel elstner won't make it, but he'll write a detailed mail to everybody involved in GraphicalPartitioningTool asap - i can give details, when we're at it
<JaneW> dholbach: ok thanks
<JaneW> are all BreezyGoals updates done yet?
<JaneW> we will no doubt be doing some during and after the meeting too...
* fabbione waves
<Nafallo> fabbione: aren't you on VAC? ;-)
<JaneW> hi fabbione!
<fabbione> JaneW: thanks for updating LinuxroadMap
<JaneW> how's the semi-holiday
<Nafallo> fabbione: hi anyway! :-)
<fabbione> Nafallo: yes.. but JaneW did call :)
<JaneW> fabbione: np
<fabbione> JaneW: progressing :)
<Nafallo> fabbione: hehe, and the kernel upload? ;-)
<JaneW> fabbione: we can do yours first so you can go...
<fabbione> JaneW: we will get the garden room done by thursday i think
<fabbione> Nafallo: well.. i had to wait for the shower to be free :)
<ogra> fabbione, please update the goals page if its done :p
<fabbione> Nafallo: so i kept myself busy
<Nafallo> fabbione: lol
<JaneW> is mdz in the house?
<mdz> yep
<JaneW> hi
<fabbione> JaneW: thanks, that would be nice
<mdz> 10 seconsd by my clock ;-)
<ogra> oh, we have time
<jbailey> Woot ntp
<mdz> good morning, everyone
<JaneW> any obkection to starting with fabbione ? so we don;t take up any more of his vac than neccesary?
<fabbione> ogra: my stuff is all green.. almost like the grass i was smoking today ;)
<mdz> JaneW: was already planning to
<highvoltage> good morning.
<ogra> fabbione, lol :)
<JaneW> after that we'll run down the list from top to bottom
<baggins> heheh
* Nafallo has seen mdz sing atlast ;-)
<jbailey> Great way to throw off all of our meetings, someone needs to root ntp.ubuntulinux.org =)
<mdz> thanks everyone for attending
<JaneW> fabbione: !
<fabbione> JaneW: !
<mdz> Nafallo: no, the singing happened earlier in the evening.  at that point I was croaking ;-)
<mdz> as JaneW says, we're going to run down the list and get goal updates from everyone
<Nafallo> mdz: hehe, oki :-)
<mdz> if there's a blocking issue or something further to discuss, we'll take it to another time and forum
<mdz> so we won't keep everyone here for very long
<JaneW> one note
<mdz> fabbione: you're up
* fabbione rolls the drums
<fabbione> ok for Breezy i had 3 goals..
<mdz> JaneW: yes?
<fabbione> let's start in order
<fabbione> ClusterFilesystem
<JaneW> if there's an item in the goal which is deferred, but otheriwse the goal is complete, that item must be listed in the deferred goals table at the bottom of the page
<JaneW> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BreezyGoals
<fabbione> it's Completed. I am regularly importing bug fixes from upstream and push stuff back. Both upstreams are really good and cooperation is great.
<fabbione> there are no deferred issues at them moment
<fabbione> any questions about ClusterFS?
<JaneW> fabbione: so there's nothing more to be done -other than bug fixes that come up from time to time?
<JaneW> signed and sealed...
<fabbione> JaneW: correct... that's just what i would consider normal package maintainance.
<fabbione> Next one is InstallerVolumeManager
<pitti> sorry for being late, network trouble
<fabbione> it has been implemented on top of a prototype.
<fabbione> it is working on amd64/i386 and all the arches that have LVM support on parted (if i remember the name right)
<fabbione> it is offered as an installation option because ppc lacks it
<fabbione> and can't be default
<fabbione> this will be done for breezy+1
<fabbione> also a major redesign of a few installer bits are required for a better implementation.
<mdz> I don't think we want it to be the default; most users don't need that complexity
<fabbione> anyway it works and it has been uploaded
<fabbione> mdz: we discussed it in the specs iirc and we wanted to have it as default for server install
<JaneW> fabbione: it says it still need testing?
<fabbione> and we lack a GUI
<hunger> fabbione: Cool, I need to test that once I find a computer to do that on!
<fabbione> JaneW: that is right.. I did test it on my machines and it did work fine...
<JaneW> ok, so who can drive it through to completed?
<fabbione> hadn't hear any report of "It did kill my Terabyte of warez" yet
<fabbione> I need somebody to test on amd64
<JaneW> BTW I swaped Implemented and Completed around....
<fabbione> i don't have one ...
<ogra> i have o amd64 to install on :(
<fabbione> JaneW: ah ok.. yeah we need an extra test on amd64
<ogra> no
<fabbione> and for breezy + 1 to review the overall
<JaneW> ogra: no volunteering!
<mdz> FYI, the target status for goals at FeatureFreeze is Implemented
<ogra> JaneW, woud be easy to test during a edubuntu install ;)
<JaneW> ogra: oic, ok then ;)
<mdz> for goals which are not implemented by feature freeze, we'll need to take a decision on whether to drop them (according to priority, etc.)
<JaneW> mdz: ok
<fabbione> ok.. there is nothing more for InstallerVolumeManager
<JaneW> mdz: so we don't need to push the implmented ones too hard right now?
<fabbione> any questions? and no.. there is no GUI yet for it.. 
<mdz> JaneW: better to have more implemented goals than a few completed ones, yes
<fabbione> (the one shipped by Fedora crashes)
<fabbione> (and it's very buggy atm)
<JaneW> fabbione: can you make a note of the revision requirements in the deferred table is necessary?
<mdz> testing naturally occurs post-featurefreeze
<JaneW> s/is/if
<fabbione> JaneW: yes i will, if you don't mind when i am back :)
<JaneW> fabbione: np
<fabbione> JaneW: perfect.
<fabbione> the last one is LinuxKernelRoadmap
<fabbione> we did manage to do most of the specs
<fabbione> but:
<fabbione> 1) we did specs too much
<fabbione> 2) the team has been reduced in numbers so 1 did grow a bit
<fabbione> generally the situation is looking good
<fabbione> 2.6.12 seems a farly stable kernel
<fabbione> and the normal process of bug fixing is taking place on a regular base
<JaneW> ;)
<JaneW> which one is that? (name?)
<fabbione> there should be a bit of movement in a week when i will be back
<fabbione> (have to sync a few things around)
<fabbione> JaneW: name of what?
<JaneW> fabbione: again, when you are back please add deferred bits to table, or send to me and I'll do it...
<mdz> fabbione: regarding the new features in the spec, which ones have been implemented (or will be by feature freeze) and which are deferred?
<JaneW> fabbione: I meant the kernel - never mind
<fabbione> JaneW: yeps.. absolutely
<JaneW> fabbione: your goals are looking great.
<fabbione> mdz: it's all listed in the specs. I did update the specs on a regular base.
<JaneW> fabbione: are you able to comment on the status of the goals/bounties your students are working on?
<fabbione> mdz: do you want a summary here?
<Kamion> back
<fabbione> (but it will take a bit of time)
<JaneW> fabbione: will any of them be ready/usable for breezy?
<mdz> fabbione: yes, and the status should be recorded on breezygoals via janew, rather than changing the spec itself (so that we can see at a glance)
<fabbione> JaneW: no more than you atm.
<mdz> fabbione: just a very quick yes/no for each point
<fabbione> JaneW: because they didn't ship any code and you should have received the last status report from them ( i didn't)
<JaneW> fabbione: ok
<fabbione> mdz: ok.. one second..
<fabbione> mdz: we will stay with gcc-3.4 for breezy. 4.0 isn't ready yet and viceversa
<mdz> we need to go much faster than this in order to get to everyone; 15 minutes per person will become a >2 hour meeting
<mdz> everyone should have summaries prepared in advance\
<fabbione> we are stabilizing via 2.6.12.X
<fabbione> we are monitoring 3rd part drivers automatically
<fabbione> we switched to HIGHMEM on i386 (no breakage reported)
<fabbione> SMP/UP costs and different flavours reduction is deferred for several tech reasons.
<fabbione> linux-non-supported-modules has been deferred for now
<fabbione> new abichecker has been deferred. the actual one is still holding fine without major headackes.
<fabbione> -dbg kernels has been implemented as "we ship debugging configs". we can't ship the binaries
<fabbione> (150MB for each image is plain too much)
<fabbione> we implemented the "linux" package for the arches where it can be done
<fabbione> we deferred Debian <-> Ubuntu build system. Debian arrived a bit too late for breezy.
<fabbione> We deferred the build of daily git snapshots. It was a low priority in any case
<fabbione> we deferred the automatic build of 3rd part modules on abi changes. (still low priority)
<fabbione> we implemented the notification applet on upgrades
<fabbione> oh clearly.. new upstreams for everything has been done...
<mdz> ok, that's everything from LKR right?
<fabbione> and for some subsystems like alsa and acpi we are ahead of linus' tree
<fabbione> yes
<JaneW> shew, that's only 3 goals done
<mdz> ok, great, thanks for the update
<fabbione> i think you should skip goals details :)
<mdz> fabbione: if a goal is only partially complete, we need the details
<JaneW> fabbione: you are second on a few goals too, are the leads for those here?
<mdz> but as I asked on the mailing list, everyone should be ready with an update so that we can go quickly
<fabbione> JaneW: dunno..
* fabbione checks
<JaneW> i.e. pitti, jbailey, daniels
* pitti listens
<jbailey> I'm here for NFSRoot
<mdz> they should all be here
<mdz> let's move on
<fabbione> i think daniels is missing
<JaneW> just daniels away I think
<ogra> yup
<mdz> JaneW: hmm?  did daniels say he would not be here?
<baggins> daniels was around a few minutes ago. i just spoke to him
<fabbione> yes only daniels
<ogra> (without fixing X for amd64 *whine*)
<JaneW> XRoadmap
<mdz> we'll have daniels give us that update
<JaneW> ok
<JaneW> thanks fabbione.
<fabbione> JaneW: no problem :)
<JaneW> ok Edubuntu - ogra
<mdz> ogra: ready to go next?
<ogra> yup
<fabbione> i am back to do some cement :)
<fabbione> cya guys
<dholbach> fabbione: have fun :)
<jsgotangco> hi all (arrived on time i guess)
<ogra> edubuntu is WIP currently, a roadmap is here: http://edubuntu.org/EdubuntuOneDotZeroRoadmap
<ogra> it will be ready for breezy...
<pitti> well, I have serious issues with accepting MoinMoin and similar stuff to main...
<mdz> what is done, and what remains to be done?
<ogra> pitti, mediawiki
<pitti> erm, mediawiki, right
<mdz> the packages are not in main yet, and that is a major issue
<pitti> I would *like* to see MoinMoin instead, sorry :-)
<pitti> gcompris still needs some work
<ogra> pitti its my fallback, but mark and we all commited o mediawiki
<mdz> pitti: let's have that discussion at an edubuntu meeting
<ogra> yup
<pitti> sure
<mdz> ogra: so what is complete so far with edubuntu?
<JaneW> ogra: how sure are you that we'll have an installable CD by 11/08?
<Kamion> note that cdimage only builds from main
<ogra> JaneW, we already have a installable CD ...
<ogra> yes i noted that :)
<JaneW> ok... thought it was still broken
<ogra> it is, but its installable
<mdz> is it?  xlibs was broken until today
<ogra> and all isuus can be worked around as soon as the latest X is on the CD
<mdz> X wasn't installable for me
<ogra> mdz, yes
<ogra> but i can install a system 
<JaneW> ok s/installable/fixed
<mdz> installable = installable
<mdz> if the installation fails, it isn't installable
<ogra> it wont be fixed before the packages are all in main..
<ogra> but it will be easy to work around that...
<mdz> ogra: what we need is a very brief summary of what is done, and what remains to be done
<ogra> since with the exeption of mediawiki all packages are there and instalable
<mdz> we are not going into detail here; there is no time
<mdz> we're trying to get an overview of all feature development
<ogra> moving the packages to main, add the blacklist package, fix ldm, package the new teachertool.... build the custom config on top of the CD
<ogra> ^^^  remains to be done
<ogra> most of this i will have done before 11th
<mdz> ogra: ok, and what has already been done over the past 3 months?
<ogra> test the server setup collect the packages prepare custom ui changes for kde packages in gnome, build the seeds 
<ogra> build a CD
<ogra> thats all... + a lot of discussions ...
<mdz> the server setup and the ui changes are in breezy today?
<ogra> moodle changes just uploaded....
<ogra> schooltool doesnt ned changes, on the mediawiki packages i'm currently working 
<mdz> so only part of the changes then
<ogra> and you know the ltsp status 
<mdz> ltsp is ThinClientIntegration, not edubuntu
<ogra> yup... but a essential part of the server install 
<mdz> ok, anything else you would like to add about Edubuntu?
<ogra> nope...
<ogra> next topic ? 
<mdz> it sounds like most of the work still remains
<JaneW> ok, are we moving down or doing all ogras goals?
<mdz> JaneW: ogra
<JaneW> ok
<JaneW> edubuntu has been a lot of discussing and trying different things
<ogra> audio CD burning... ?
<JaneW> yes
<ogra> serpentine is in main and used by gnome volume manager, upstream is QA contactfor all bugs, it is tested and implemented
<mdz> AudioCDBurning is done, move on
<mdz> ContentFiltering
<mdz> ogra: ContentFiltering?
<ogra> is a part of edubuntu.... squidguard moves to main, squid already is and i'll make a default blacklist package this weekend from the default blacklists squidguard upstream offers
<ogra> there is no gui or something to change the blacklists ...
<mdz> none of those have been done yet
<ogra> squidguard is on the main inclusion list for edubuntu
<mdz> and the issues with configuring squidguard to integrate with squid are unresolved
<mdz> this is not going to make feature freeze
<ogra> err, why ? is moving a package to main a feature ? 
<mdz> JaneW: please keep a list of items where we need to take a decision on whether to continue development past feature freeze or defer it to breezy+1
<ogra> its only the moiving of squidguard
<mdz> ogra`there is a lot more to this feature than putting a package in main, and you nkow that
<mdz> this is documented in the spec
<mdz> ogra: PowerManagementConfiguration?
<ogra> mdz, you mean transparent proxying ? 
<ogra> power management is WIP
<JaneW> mdz: ok...
<JaneW> mdz: is edubuntu included there..?
<ogra> gnome-power is packaged in a version we wont use, upstream worked a lot for us to prepare the packages for ubuntu
<mdz> JaneW: yes, though we have no choice in the matter (but it should get further attention)
<JaneW> ok
<ogra> the new packages are prepared but need essential functions from the new dbus we dont have yet
<mdz> we took a decision two weeks ago to bring in the new dbus; what happened?
<ogra> nothing yet... daniels was busy with X 
<mdz> ogra: daniels is not the only one who can update the package; if you are blocked on something for two weeks then we need to consider alternatives
<ogra> ok
<mdz> JaneW: add PowerManagementConfiguration to the review list
<ogra> my fault then... i thought we'd wait for the maintainer....
<mdz> ogra: GraphicalConfigTools?
<ogra> is done by my SoC student, he wrote a little tool for ndiswrapper to select .inf files and has a scheduler frontend as WIP that he didnt show me yet
<JaneW> done
<ogra> the ndis tool needs some package corrections... but can be uploaded soon
<mdz> there is much more in the spec, and there was more in his SoC proposal
<mdz> are those the only pieces he has worked on?
<ogra> yup
<mdz> password changing?
<ogra> is upstream in gnome now
<seb128> g-c-c has the "about-me" capplet
<ogra> as well as the services editor
<mdz> ok
<ogra> so there was not much left 
<ogra> he tried to make te best out of it :)
<mdz> ok, I think that's all for ogra
<JaneW> will it be done in time?
<mdz> JaneW: it seems clear that it won't make feature freeze
<ogra> JaneW, nope...
<mdz> mjg59: are you here?
<ogra> JaneW, both are good candidates to move from universe to main in breezy+1
<JaneW> :(
<ogra> but they'll be available in universe at least
<mdz> LaptopMission is primarily a testing/bugfixing target, but according to the information I have seen the laptops will be in the hands of testers close to feature freeze
<ogra> JaneW, the important stuff we wanted happened upstream anyway
<mdz> so we should get a full test cycle out of them
<mdz> Kamion: you're up, starting with OEMInstaller
<Kamion> OEMInstaller needs a few important bug fixes (locale/keyboard configuration mostly), and a bunch of UI fixes (primarily making it all a single window rather than a bunch of dialogs that bounce around your screen)
<Kamion> and we need to get test CDs going for it to test the base-config integration properly
<Kamion> but the guts of it are done
<mdz> at feature freeze, will we have something we can ask OEMs to test?
<Kamion> I think so, yes
<mdz> Kamion: what are the remaining blockers for installable CDs now that X should be fixed?
<mjg59> mdz: Hello
<mdz> we should get a Colony release together as close to feature freeze as we can
<Kamion> language-support-en is uninstallable
<Kamion> which is bad
<Kamion> apart from that, basically anything on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/report.html is an issue
<mdz> pitti: ?
<Kamion> today's i386 CD is in reasonable shape as far as the first stage goes
<pitti> I wasn't aware of that, I'll look into it ASAP
<seb128> Kamion, mdz: the GNOME stuff on this list are waiting on a buildd guy to push a retry
<Kamion> I would like everyone to keep an eye on http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/testing/breezy_probs.html and http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/current/report.html on a fairly regular basis
<mdz> aren't things retried after several hours anyway?
<Kamion> my busyness levels are too high at the moment for me to be able to monitor it and prod everyone
<mdz> ok
<mdz> we need someone to take ownership of getting these issues solved, then
<seb128> mdz: dunno, I've uploaded gimp yesterday and there is no sign of a build try ... since the previous version was FTFBSing on aalib name change I guess the buildds are waiting for something
<Kamion> language-support-* is in pretty bad shape apparently, in fact
<seb128> and other builds need a retry for libgphoto2
<mdz> seb128: will you chase down the uninstallables and report back to me?
<mdz> you seem to have investigated many of them already
<Kamion> breezy.all.i386:graphics/gimp_2.2.8-2ubuntu3: Dep-Wait by buildd+terranova [optional:out-of-date] 
<seb128> mdz: yep, I'm tracking them
<pitti> Kamion: ok, I'll fix it soon
<Kamion> it's dep-wait on aalib1-dev, probably needs a buildd maintainer to clear it
<mdz> Kamion,jbailey: BrandingForDerivatives
<JaneW> mdz: mvo...
<Kamion> d-i build time lsb-release done, many debconf templates in the installer done (and more done upstream that aren't merged yet), more still to do
<mdz> JaneW: he's next once Kamion is finished
<jbailey> mdz: gconf maintainer has accepted my patch, gnome will come easily after this.
<Kamion> cleaning that up is pretty much my top or second-top priority for the next week
<JaneW> oh sorry I mis-read
<Kamion> I don't think we're going to get all of the branding removed by feature freeze; I'm concentrating on templates in the default install path
<Kamion> but, it's not in too bad shape I think
<mdz> template changes are fairly non-intrusive, they can continue past feature freeze if necessary
<mdz> what about the artwork/defaults/etc. non-installer stuff?
<Kamion> I also have to get choose-mirror selecting the default suite using lsb-release
<Kamion> that's on the list for early next week
<jbailey> I've uploaded the gconf change now to Ubuntu, which lets me do all of gnome.
<mdz> the spec includes GDM theme, gnome splash, wallpaper, browser homepage,, browser bookmarks, gnome theme...
<mdz> "About Ubuntu"
<dholbach> xscreensaver, update-manager?
<seb128> dholbach: gnome-screensaver you mean? :p
<Kamion> as long as all those are in the *-artwork package, it's fine
<ogra> dholbach, gnome-screensaver
<mdz> Kamion: they aren't
<dholbach> seb128, ogra: ok
<Kamion> right, some of them are though
<mdz> jbailey: how many of those things can I re-brand easily in breezy today?
<Kamion> the spec is not as clearly laid out as it might have been :(
<jbailey> mdz: Not many, the gconf change was uploaded this morning.
<mdz> JaneW: ->review list, we need to keep moving
<seb128> with the gconf that's just a matter to make a branding package writting gconf default values
<JaneW> mdz: ok
<seb128> s/the gconf/the gconf changes/
<ogra> edubuntu can be a good test candidate here
<jbailey> mdz: Replacing ubuntu-artwork is doable now, but it doesn't make it easy to change theming and such.  The gconf change allows you to select a theme other than 'Human' and such.
<mdz> Kamion: GraphicalInstaller, insofar as it has technical requirements, seems to be completed; is there anything remaining to be done?
<Kamion> mdz: GraphicalInstaller evolved into a spec saying "put the base system on the live CD"
<Kamion> mdz: I've done the cdimage changes required to do that, but the last time I mentioned it to you you said there wouldn't be space
<mdz> JaneW: please move GraphicalInstaller to low priority; it's always been amorphous
<JaneW> mdz: ok
<mdz> Kamion: MountingHDDFilesystems?
<Kamion> I think if UbuntuExpress arrives we can experiment with flipping that switch, otherwise we can ignore it
<Kamion> MountingHDDFilesystems install side done; as for the live side we can either do it the quick way or the right way
<mdz> JaneW: ->review list, Kamion and I need to talk about this more
<Kamion> I have the supporting code for it, but mdz asked me to move some of the code into os-prober
<mdz> Kamion: InstallerSimpleResize?
<Kamion> which I haven't had time to do; we'll talk about this later I think
<Kamion> InstallerSimpleResize done except for corner cases, namely large mostly-empty partitions and weird PC partition table handling (primary/logical partitions)
<Kamion> I haven't looked at those since the initial implementation
<mdz> so for the common case of one large Windows partition, it works?
<mdz> that's 98% of what we need from it
<Kamion> right ...
<Kamion> needs more testing of course, resizing partitions is always hairy
<mdz> yes, that works?
<Kamion> last time I tried it, that worked
<mdz> Kamion: InstallerStage2Progress: I uploaded the necessary apt changes yesterday, and I think mvo has made further fixes since then
<Kamion> yes, that's just waiting for everything to trickle through the archive to my test system so that I can test base-config before upload
<mvo> mdz: yes, uploaded apt, aptitude and python-apt this morning. should work fine now
<mdz> iirc, it was working for you with local builds containing the patches
<mdz> ok
<Kamion> it's done bar the shouting
<mdz> the best bits of PackageSelection are done, the rest is deferred
<mdz> I think that's all for Kamion
<Kamion> livecdprompts and oemrescue have been deferred
<mdz> we'll be skipping most low priority stuff for this meeting
<Kamion> what's the state of apt automark?
<mdz> otherwise we'll be here all day and all night
<Kamion> I saw some of that in changelogs
<mdz> Kamion: mvo has a branch; I don't think it would be wise to land it in breezy
<mdz> and mvo is up next
<Kamion> ok
<dholbach> if you're talking about automatic removal - it works nicely for me...
<mvo> Kamion: I have a implementation based on aptitudes mark-n-sweep but it got very little testing so far
<JaneW> Kamion: please send deferred bits to me, for recording
<Kamion> dholbach: no, different thing
<dholbach> Kamion: ok, thanks
<mdz> mvo: FindingPackages
<mvo> Niran (SoC student) is working on it, improved gnome-app-install nearly ready
<mvo> (goal 1 of the spec), depends on python-apt 0.6.13 (uploaded today)
<mvo> No launchpad/mozilla integration yet (goal2)
<mvo> No mime-type information yet (goal3)
<JaneW> are we there yet?
<mdz> mvo: how does it look?  is it going to make feature freeze?
<mvo> mdz: goal1 yes. it's mostly done, I will upload it ASAP
<mdz> is the launchpad portion blocked on launchpad or blocked on the student?
<mvo> mdz: on the student 
<mdz> ok
<mdz> JaneW: ->review list, please
<JaneW> ok
<mvo> but he said he'll move to launchpad now and send a mail to the launchpad list 
<mvo> pt support for translated package descriptions is needed to have a 100% localizable interface. Support for that is in my apt--ddtp tree (and the package descriptions are in rosetta). apt--ddtp needs to be merged into apt and it needs a lot of testing.
<mdz> mvo: NetworkWideUpdates seems problematic; there are some tricky packaging/policy issues to solve
<mvo> s/pt/apt
<mdz> I think it would be best if we defer it
<mvo> mdz: I uploaded a 0.1.1 in the archive. it shifts all dirty stuff to the "apu-data" package that the admin has to build himself (with a command)
<mvo> my vote would be to move it to universe and see what people think about it
<mdz> it would be better to take our time and consider and discuss these issues than to rush something in
<mvo> mdz: ok
<JaneW> should I move it to deferred?
<mdz> mvo: LanguageSelector?
<mdz> JaneW: yes
<mvo> LanguageSelector:
<mvo> In the archive, but needs to be ported to the new langpack structure
<mvo> that entered the archive today
<mdz> mvo: what is the name of the package?  it doesn't seem to be in desktop yet
<mvo> language-selector
<ogra> looks good :)
<mdz> mvo: please seed it, get it in front of users for testing
* pitti tested langpack selector, too
* dholbach too
<mvo> mdz: ok
<mdz> you have a good start on PackageDependencyManagement, but I think we need to more thoroughly consider the interactions with frontends, etc.
<mdz> e.g., gnome-app-install
<dholbach> doesnt that use synaptic as a back-end anyways?
<mdz> it used apt-get the last time I looked at it
<ogra> dholbach, thats a big overhead
<mvo> g-a-i uses synaptic as backend
<mdz> JaneW: ->review list, mvo and I need to discuss whether this can land for breezy
<mvo> and synaptic supports automatic dependency managment (if apt supports it)
<JaneW> ok
<mdz> I'll go next
<mvo> mdz: I think testing is the critical bit here 
<mdz> ThinClientIntegration needs to be brought back into line after some bitrot; unionfs broke it, have a patch, will get it in today
<mvo> translated package descriptions are somewhat releated to FindingPackages. without them we'll not have translated long descriptions
<mdz> need to upload the server-side configuration infrastructure which I have locall,y to provide a default dhcp config
<ogra> yay
<mdz> should have everything bu tNAT landed by feature freeze
<mdz> and the issues there are starting to come together
<mdz> LTSPXorgConfiguration covers the common cases; not all of the overrides work yet but that's mostly bugs
<JaneW> mdz: do we need more text in the notes section there?
<mdz> UbuntuExpress should have juanje as lead now; I couldn't keep on it
<ogra> :(
<mdz> JaneW: basically what I said above should go there
<JaneW> mdz: must I change ubuntu express to Juanje?
<JaneW> mdz: ok
<mdz> the only part of LiveCDFeatures likely to land is adding unionfs as an option for COW
<mdz> which would be a nice performance boost, and would allow us to take a decision later about which one to use as default
<mdz> I hope to push that in over the weekend
<mdz> the rest is deferred
<mdz> ReleaseCycle is done, but we'll see at the end what the issues are
<mdz> that's it for me
<mdz> seb128: you're next, starting with LaunchpadIntegration
<seb128> jamesh has written launchpad-integration library/tools. The lib is used by apps with GtkUIManager or custom menus and most of those have been packaged. Some apps use libbonobo, sivang is working on that and said he will have this ready for tomorrow. I'll keep patching other apps for the freeze.
<mdz> seb128: do you have a count of the number of apps which need patching?
<seb128> there is ~30 packages to patch, ~10 have been uploaded, I've some patches on my disk and sivang is working on some others
<mdz> from here, the status of LI should be N/M packages done
<mdz> since the infrastructure seems to work well
<mdz> ok, thanks
<mdz> seb128: VideoPlaybackRoadmap, your portion of this was killed by upstream right?
<seb128> patches are quite easy to do, the desktop should be patched for feature freeze
<seb128> GNOME 2.12 will still use gstreamer0.8 and not 0.9, the packages are update. The A/V issues are due to esdsink but we are stucked with that (cf AudioInfrastructure). Ask daniels for xine
<seb128> yep
<mdz> JaneW: ->review list, need to talk to daniels
<JaneW> ok
<mdz> panel enhancements?
<seb128> google bounty. Emmanuel has made patches for gnome-menus/"RootRequired" (mask entries to non authorized users) and for the "add to panel" new design. These can/will be pushed before feature freeze.
<mdz> MenuEditor?
<seb128> gnome-menus has one but too simple so we are switching to smeg. It's packaged and quite used since hoary. I've modified gnome-panel to use it before the gnome-menus one if available and Amaranth has made a wiki page to move the package to main. 
<seb128> just pending the main approval
<mdz> seb128: you seeded it already?
<mdz> if not, please seed it
<seb128> nop, should that be done before the approval?
<seb128> k
<mdz> seb128: yes, I look for the reports when moving the packages to main
<mdz> (which I only do if they are seeded)
<mdz> ToggleDesktopModes?
<seb128> sabayon packaged and working fine ... when it's not borked by Xnest which is the case atm
<mdz> is it something we should install by default?
<seb128> daniels said he'll fix Xnest with next xorg update
<seb128> no
<mdz> seb128: the one which went in today, or the next one?
<seb128> next one, he forgot for this one
<mdz> ogra: sabayon by default for edubuntu perhaps?  let's discuss later
<ogra> mdz, yes !
<seb128> that's not really an user tool, so not really useful for a desktop installation
<ogra> seb128, ltsp classroom install
<mdz> seb128: that's all for you, right?
<ogra> seb128, its perfect ;)
<seb128> FileManagerImprovement: spec quite "light", some of the changes have been made upstream. The set of desktop folders is still on the list of stuff to do.
<seb128> too
<mdz> seb128: oh, sabdfl gave me some items related to that which we need to discuss
<seb128> ok
<mdz> JaneW: please make a note for me/seb128 to discuss
<mdz> seb128: thanks for the fast updates :-)
<mdz> pitti: ready?
<JaneW> ok
<seb128> np :)
<pitti> mdz: yes
<pitti> AudioInfrastructure?
<pitti> the goals page is quite verbose, but I'll summarize here:
<pitti> dmix, esd tweaks, default card selector are done
<pitti> according to fabbione, the OSS kernel hack is impossible, but we don't really need that anyway
<mdz> pitti: so we must still use esd even though we have dmix?  dmix allows video playback to work much better
<pitti> I did quite some hackign on polypaudio, but it's still too buggy, so we'll stay with esd for Breezy
<pitti> mdz: the problem is in the driver, dmix doesn't work for too many sound cards
<seb128> pitti: you ruin my VideoPlayback with esd :p
<mdz> hm, ok
<pitti> for those it does work with, direct gstreamer -> alsa output works fine
<pitti> so people that dmix works for can just switch
<mdz> JaneW: BluetoothSupport is chmj's now
<mdz> pitti: langpacks?
<pitti> but we shouldn't break aaudio completely for the cards it doesn'T work
<JaneW> yes
<pitti> the only blocker for audio is the inotify break on powerpc to get the hoplug response, but I'm sure we can settle that in the next week.
<pitti> and I need to do some backend cleanup with jdthood, but no major issues 
<pitti> above issues will be ready by next week
<pitti> langpacks:
<pitti> new set of kde/gnome/other split langpacks were uploaded today, kde/gnome are in the NEW queue. Most pacakges now generate a POT file, some of them still need to be fixed, but that's easy (just takes some work). The
<mdz> pitti: still no rosetta exports?
<pitti> one outstanding thing is the OO.o/Ffox integration; I think we can manage to export PO files from moz/tbird/ffox for rosetta import for feature freeze, but I doubt
<pitti> that I can manage to get the rosetta->langpack direction working in one week
<pitti> mdz: no, I got some broken breezy and hoary tarballs for testing, but they were all unusable
<mdz> pitti: rosetta problems, or langpack problems?
<mdz> rosett problems, then
<pitti> I sent carlos and daf some information about the bugs
<pitti> mdz: yes, rosetta output is flawed
<pitti> mdz: so by now I'm using my own scripts
<mdz> JaneW: ->I need to liaise with launchpad on this
<pitti> (I'm glad that I have them :-/ )
<JaneW> ok
<mdz> pitti: printingroadmap seems to need to be deferred
<pitti> moz/ooo integration is primarily a time issue
<mdz> the one piece of that which I think we should attempt is hplip support out of the box
<pitti> mdz: yes, there was a guy who wanted to work on it, but he's quiet
<mdz> now that it is derooted we should be able to add it to desktop
<pitti> I thought it doesn't work for many printers?
<mdz> it works great for me
<mdz> let's discuss it later
<pitti> yes
<mdz> automatedproblemreports -> deferred, yes?
<pitti> yes, ENOTIME
<pitti> sorry, but I ahve to do so many security updates recently that I couln't catch up
<mdz> ProactiveSecurityRoadmap is not going to be fully completed, but a lot of good things from it landed already
<pitti> there is some toy package, but nothing we can actually use
<pitti> derooting stuff, and inetd killing is done the kernel enhancements are bountied to trulux, but that will make it at most to universe for breezy, he is on vac right now
<doko> pitti: only scanning doesn't work for me
<mdz> ok
<pitti>  SSP has finally be accepted upstream, so we should attempt to use it in Breezy+1; it was never attempted to be used in breezy anyway, it was only mentioned in "things we would like in the future"
<mdz> jbailey: ready?
<mdz> pitti: thanks for the updates
<jbailey> mdz: Yup
<doko> mdz: about printingroadmap: gs-esp was 8.15 was released last week (we still have 7.07)
<jbailey> EarlyUserspace:
<jbailey> Building the new DSDT patch for the kernel as we speak.  Once this is done, will ask Fabio to make this the default.  Have only had 2 responses to the call for testers, time for tough love.
<doko> pitti: that would require gcc-4.1 to be the standard compiler?
<mdz> please don't wait for DSDT; make it the default now
<pitti> doko: I guess so, let's talk about it later
<jbailey> the DSDT patch right now works for initramfs, but doesn't work for the old initrd cases (segfault at startup)
<mdz> that's a corner case
<jbailey> Okay.
<mdz> get that in today if at all possible
<jbailey> 'k
<jbailey> FormalTestPlans:
<jbailey> Nothing written down yet =(  Will need to just lock myself away from IRC for 3 or 4 hours to do a brain dump and then post a public call for feedback.
<mdz> jbailey: please put together a timeline for it; we have time since it isn't freeze-relevant, but we should definitely do something for breezy
<ogra> jbailey, i still have the drafts from amu's gnoppix testplans anywhere around
<mdz> we should have a plan to do a large formal test cycle with the community based on a test plan
<mdz> JaneW: ->review, jbailey and I should discuss
<JaneW> ok
<jbailey> NFSRoot:
<jbailey> Done, just waiting on EarlyUserspace to become default before it's marked as such.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> calendaringsync?
<jbailey> Calendaring Synchronisation:
<jbailey> There have been lots of pings on the upstream evolution ical/HTML upload bounty from others with no real response.  Need to verify that multisync works with the latest evolutions.  As it says in the spec, this is mostly a post-breezy item.
<mdz> looks deferable
<mdz> JaneW: ->deferred
<JaneW> ok
<mdz> we already covered branding
<jbailey> I have toolchainroadmap notes when doko's up
<mdz> ok
<mdz> dholbach: ready?
<dholbach> yes
<dholbach> ExpadingUniverse was accelerated a bit by REVU, we're reviewing now at a faster pace and there are a lot of interesting packages out there that will soon make it in
<dholbach> we also established review days where we need more helpers - apart from me there are only a few reviewers who think of this as a worthwhile thing
<dholbach> apt-get.org review/import hasn't started yet, but as i suggested in a mail, we should start on it in 4 weeks, because packages maintained directly in ubuntu matter to a higher extent
<jbailey> And myubuntu is deferred, but I have a pile of notes for it for later. =)
<mdz> dholbach: where does it stand with respect to feature freeze?
<ogra> mdz, bad....
<mdz> jbailey: thanks, let's talk soon
<dholbach> as i'm stilly busy with my thesis i can't do as much as i liked
<dholbach> i'll be finished in 3-4 weeks :(
<mdz> ok
<dholbach> but i will do everything i can afterwards
<mdz> we can continue to bring new packages into universe well past feature freeze
<dholbach> thanks
<ogra> mdz, we have still many items on te lists... the different transitions costed more time this time
<mdz> but things should be in motion with tools, processes, etc. before feature freeze
<mdz> we should have a list of packages to review
<mdz> dholbach: is that achievable?
<dholbach> are you talking about apt-get.org?
<mdz> yes
<dholbach> i'll work on it
<dholbach> so yes
<mdz> ok
<dholbach> on graphicalpartitioing tool
<dholbach> GraphicalPartitioningTool: daniel elstner implemented all the items on the spec but struggles with mount points and the actually allocated device names after the partitioning 
<dholbach> he got ill in between, but he just wrote a mail to jane, mattand the ubuntu-express guys
<dholbach> i talked to Kamion and he signaled, he'd be alright with cooking a plan up together with him
<mdz> I just sa his status update today
<dholbach> alright
<mdz> apparently he was sick for three weeks??
<dholbach> yes :(
<dholbach> but he wants to make it all happen
<mdz> well, he has 6 days to make it happen :-)
<dholbach> as i said the montpoint issue is just missing
<mdz> dholbach: anything else?
<Kamion> dholbach's going to get him to mail me, I'm out this evening and Saturday and possibly Sunday but will reply ASAP next week
<dholbach> he had a solution in place which didnt cover corner cases, so he'll discuss with kamion
<dholbach> mdz: that's it
<mdz> dholbach: thanks
<mdz> doko: ready?
<doko> yes
<mdz> openofficelocalisation?
<doko> OO localization
<doko> - Milestone 121 is uploaded, existing Ubuntu xhosa translation is integrated in OOo2. Extraction and Update of language data technically works.
<doko> - Duplication of package source (one source to build the binaries from (including en-US), one package to build all other ooo2-l10n packages from) is WIP. Adds the size of the OOo2 source package to the archives, no new binary packages.
<doko> - Clarifying the rosetta interface with carlos, implementation plan is currently beeing worked on.
<doko> - Putting/getting the localization data in chunks handable by Rosetta is WIP.
<doko> - I expect to have the WIP done until Tuesday.
<doko> - Testing the Rosetta interfacing needs to be defined/done.
<mdz> doko: so which parts will make feature freeze?
<doko> The package split, and the import export bits.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> toolchain?
<doko> - Mostly done.
<doko> - Biarch support is currently done by jbailey.
<doko> - TODO: on i386 build lib64 packages for ncurses, zlib to remove amd64-libs
<doko> - TODO: on amd64, reduce ia32-libs (who, Mithrandir?)
<doko> - C++ ABI change: Resyncing library packages back from unstable, at least in
<doko>   those cases, where Debian did choose another package name, is WIP.
<jbailey> ToolchainRoadmap:
<jbailey> Solved the biarch blocker this morning.  Doing test builds now.  If it works, will hand to lamfinity for the usually binary upload dance for i386/amd64 and amd64/i386 right after that.
<doko> last point is ongoing work
<doko> jbailey: nice
<mdz> anything to be deferred to breezy+1?
<doko> no, Java is another topic
<mdz> so all TODOs will be completed by the 11th?
<doko> don't know about th ia32-libs. I won't have much time
<mdz> Mithrandir will be working on it for oo.o2-amd64
<jbailey> ia32-libs is hard because it cotains a pile of stuff like egcs
<doko> but that should not be critical
<mdz> so you can hand off that piece to him perhaps
<mdz> doko: NetworkAuthentication?
<doko> yes, everything else should be done, if jbailey confirms biarch
<mdz> it says the work will go into breezy, but it is still pending (i.e., no work in progress?)
<doko> mdz: waiting on feedback from my second. I currently doubt, that the basic support does make sense on its own. will update, when I get feedback
<mdz> ok
<mdz> JaneW: ->review, please
<JaneW> ok
<mdz> doko: oo.o2?
<doko> - working m121 packages for i386 and powerpc.
<doko> - OpenOffice2: upstream did announce beta 2 for August
<doko> - currently very experimental amd64 packages, based on m121, don't build directly from source.
<doko> - Compilation of java code to native code works, but not usable (startup errors). Supposed to work on RH4.
<mdz> are there any specific featurefreeze items besides amd64 support, which Mithrandir said he will complete?
<doko> for OOo2? not that I know of
<mdz> ok, so it's completed pending tollef's work
<mdz> doko: anything else?
<doko> the Java thing should not be considered for FeatureFreeze, it's an optimization
<doko> yes, SoC
<doko> Zope: latest date for bringing Zope/Plone into main?
<doko> Python: I don't have an status update for the last two weeks
<mdz> doko: python = pythonmodulepackaging, yes?
<doko> mdz: yes, the PyPi bits.
<mdz> doko: what are the blockers for zope/plone?  can it be done for featurefreeze?
<doko> mdz: packages can be done for FeatureFreeze, we can consider the remaining things as testing and adding more package (to universe only)
<mdz> doko: ok, make sure you seed early to allow time for any new main inclusion reports for dependencies, etc.
<doko> mdz: ok
<mdz> doko: thanks for the updates
<mdz> chmj is not here?
<ogra> doesnt look like
<mdz> JaneW: do you know his situation?
<JaneW> he sent an e-mail the other day
<JaneW> checking...
<JaneW> smae one he sent you mdz
<JaneW> same
<mdz> yes, there were some deliverables on that which haven't happened yet
<mdz> JaneW: ->review, we need to find some time to talk "live"
<JaneW> ok
<mdz> infinity is not here
<mdz> JaneW: did you hear anything from him?
<mdz> Riddell: ready?
<JaneW> no haven;t heard from him for a while
<Riddell> hi
<mdz> JaneW: sounds like we need to schedule a second meeting for .au
<Riddell> KDE 3.4.2 mostly in but kdebase and dependencies awaiting xmkmf
* pitti is in daily contact with infinity, but doesn't know about his goals
<Riddell> Working with upstream on guidance configuration tools, libpythonise issues mean not quite working
<Kamion> it's sucky-time in Australia, and they didn't find out that they needed to cancel things they were doing on Friday night until Friday morning
<JaneW> mdz: yes
<jsgotangco> sure its 3am heh
<Riddell> KubuntuPackageManger, Ept Package manager underway, working with Peter Rockai 
<mdz> JaneW: can you arrange it?  I'm flexible
<Riddell> first screenshot from a few hours ago http://beleriand.mornfall.net/~mornfall/ept-testing-ui-2.png
<JaneW> ok
<Riddell> Simplified Konqueror and Control Centre in (konqueror bug waiting on kdebase updates)
<mdz> Riddell: kiosk mode?
<Riddell> Need to update kde-style-lipstik to fix toolbar issue, need to get approval for upload
<mdz> Riddell: is there any clarity on the KDE release schedule wrt breezy?
<Riddell> mdz: kiosktool is in but needs fixes for not having a root password
<Riddell> mdz: KDE 3.4.3 expected to come out but no schedule yet.  3.5 too late for breezy
<mdz> ok
<Riddell> Documentation under way but slowly due to no installable CDs
<mdz> Riddell: are you tracking installation issues for the kubuntu CDs?
<Riddell> mostly it's X
<mdz> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/daily/current/report.html
<mdz> looks like mostly overlap with ubuntu
<pitti> Hi Kronoss 
<Riddell> and openoffice as well last I tried (late last week)
<Kronoss> hi
<mdz> Riddell: please work with seb128 to review the installability issues
<Riddell> ok
<mdz> installable CDs are a must for feature freeze
<mdz> Riddell: anything else?
<Riddell> Language packs, pitti has uploaded
<Riddell> various packages due to be main approved
<mdz> Riddell: are you keeping the kubuntu seeds in sync with the ubuntu seeds where they overlap?  I had been merging them from time to time ,but haven't done it in a while and it makes more sense for you to handle it
<doko> Riddell: openoffice, not openoffice2?
<mdz> I just baz merge it, and then read through the changes and edit as appropriate
<Riddell> doko: openoffice2
<Riddell> mdz: I have done syncing but havn't look at it in a while, I'll mind and do that
<mdz> ok
<mdz> have we missed anyone?
<ogra> mono ? 
<pitti> Kronoss maybe?
<JaneW> mjg59 was here earlier...
<Kronoss> what?
<JaneW> Mithrandir: ?
<Kamion> mdz: I've generally been merging changes from Ubuntu to Kubuntu and Edubuntu where they're critical for CDs to work (i.e. kernel ABI changes, pretty much)
<pitti> Kronoss: can you please give us a short status report about your bounty?
<Kamion> that happens sufficiently often that it's provided reasonable coverage
<pitti> Kronoss: will anything be ready by the feature freeze next thursday?
<Kronoss> i have done the fstab interface and some of the libs, ihave to connecto this
<mdz> ogra: you should be merging edubuntu regularly as well
<mdz> the more often it is done, the easier the merges (especially when they block CD builds)
<ogra> mdz, i did some hours ago...
<Kronoss> i think no, becouse i have to see teh udev
<pitti> Kronoss: udev?
<mdz> JaneW: ->StorageDeviceManager deferred to post-Breezy
<Kronoss> udev rules configuration
<JaneW> ok
<pitti> ah
<pitti> for Paolo (BlueTooth bounty) that's likely the same
<Kronoss> the fstab manager i think that can be ccompleted for the next week
<pitti> he did some work, but didn't show me/chmj any code yet
<pitti> JaneW: so that bounty will be post-Breezy as well
<mdz> ok
<mdz> are there any other updates that anyone present would like to provide?
<mdz> especially anything relevant to next week's feature freeze
<Kronoss> Paolo is also working with udev?
<JaneW> ok
<pitti> Kronoss: well, not directly I guess, more with hal
<Kronoss> ok
<mdz> sounds like we can wrap up
<mdz> thanks to everyone for making it on short notice
<ogra> Kamion, did vedran come back to you with the ubuntu-lite seeds ?
<fabbione> thanks to you mdz :)
<_mvo_> thanks mdz 
<mdz> the feature selection process for breezy has been chaotic, but things are starting to come together
<pitti> thanks guys, mdz
<dholbach> thanks mdz and JaneW 
<fabbione> may i add just one note?
<ogra> thanls mdz
<mdz> we're learning a lot from this cycle about how we can organize our development, and we should be able to nail things down much earlier for breezy+1
<mdz> as well as refine the specification process for the Oct/Nov summit
<pitti> ack, we should change a few things at the next conf
<Kronoss> is finished the feature selection proccess?
<mdz> Kronoss: we selected features in April
<ogra> mdz, the big transitions this time were very special, next time should be a lot smoother
<fabbione> mdz: mind if i add a footnote?
<mdz> fabbione: go ahead
<jbailey> ogra++
<mdz> Kronoss: since then we have been refining what we can implement on schedule
<JaneW> fabbione: I thought you were cementing something...
<Kronoss> ah ok
<fabbione> I forgot to mention that our kernel had the super review of a very special person.. and i would like to thanks JaneW for her partecipation in the kernel team as Release Name Manager :)
<JaneW> lol
<ogra> yay
<pitti> thanks, Jane!!!
<Kronoss> i have to get a bus
<fabbione> :)
<ogra> a lot of nuts
<mdz> fabbione: super review?
<Kronoss> see you later
<fabbione> mdz: meh.. supervision ;)
<Kamion> ogra: yes, but I have not had time to review in great detail; please don't wait for me
<ogra> mdz, she added the names for our nuts kernel
<mdz> ah
<JaneW> it was nothing *really*
<JaneW> fun though
<mdz> ok, meeting adjourned
<JaneW> YAY
<mdz> enjoy the weekend, everyone
<ogra> you too
<dholbach> mdz: you too
<pitti> JaneW: with kernels it's like with ships: no proper name - no luck :-)
* mdz goes to get some breakfast and start the day ;-)
* pitti goes to grab a pizza and a beer
<pitti> nice weekend everybody!
<JaneW> mdz thanks, I'll send you a spreadsheet shortly
<jsgotangco> well good night all its 1am
<jsgotangco> :)
<highvoltage> pitti: you too
<seb128> you too pitti :)
<JaneW> bye jsgotangco 
<JaneW> I am away for a long w/e, please update your goals if anything changes
<fabbione> JaneW: btw.. it doesn't take ages to make cement ;)
<JaneW> mdz will be very happy ;)
<fabbione> JaneW: have fun in the nature :)
<highvoltage> JaneW: enjoy your weekend too then.
<dholbach> bye everybody - have a good time
<ogra> JaneW, mind the wild animals ;) we need you here
<JaneW> thanks :))
<fabbione> ogra: she survived me!
<JaneW> ogra: lol, I am used to them
<fabbione> wild animals will run away ;)
<seb128> dholbach: later daniel :))
<ogra> heh
<highvoltage> JaneW: I resent that!
* _mvo_ is leaving now too
<JaneW> highvoltage: touche
<jsgotangco> JaneW: one word: whip
<dholbach> bye seb :)
<JaneW> heh
* JaneW will be bringing  a whip to the next summit
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:JaneW] : Calendar - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 5 Aug 20:00 UTC: NUN http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda | 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda | 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda | 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: CC http://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda | 24 Aug 20:00 UTC: MOTU http://wiki
<Seveas> hmm
<Seveas> topic too short
<Seveas> JaneW, you meesed up the MOTU part :)
<JaneW> no I didn;t I made space for it again...
<JaneW> I deleted my meeting.
<Seveas> It's still gone. I think I'll remove all agendas and create a wikipage with links to all agendas
<jbailey> I keep meaning to put together a bot that will watch an ical file and announce in each channel the start of official meetings.
<Seveas> :)
* Seveas too
<Seveas> maybe it's easy to add to ubotu/ubuntulog/locobot
<jbailey> I think supybot might also have hooks for something like that.
<jbailey> s/also/already/
<JaneW> Seveas, is it not possible to have shorter names for the agenda pages?
<JaneW> jbailey: that would be cool
<Seveas> JaneW, Good URLs Don't Change. If we change the pagenames, people get confused :)
<ogra> Seveas, a centralized wikipage that links to the differentz agendas ;)
<ogra> -z
<Seveas> ogra, almost finished already
<ogra> heh
<JaneW> ok
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Calendar - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Agendas: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 5 Aug 20:00 UTC: NUN | 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board | 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team | 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 24 Aug 20:00 UTC: MOTU
<Seveas> There :)
<ogra> yeah :)
<JaneW> much better :)
<Seveas> Might remove the calendar as well
<Seveas> all datetimes are in the topic
<ogra> link it from the agenda page
<Seveas> it's there already
<ogra> then bin it here
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Agendas: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 5 Aug 20:00 UTC: NUN | 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board | 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team | 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 24 Aug 20:00 UTC: MOTU
<Mez> anyone here?
<crimsun> (all dead)
<Mez> gonna be a fun meeting
<Mez> Fri Aug  5 20:00:02 UTC 2005
<Mez> Can everyone state their name for the record
* Mez == Martin Meredith
<JanC> I'm Jan Claeys  :)
<Mez> Item 1 on the agenda:  Report from JanClaeys regarding Support Guide
<Mez> so, JanC, lets hear your report ;) if you have it
<JanC> that was about an irc guide for new users
<JanC> http://users.telenet.be/janc/new_user_irc_guide.txt
<JanC> this is what I have
<Mez> anything else?
<JanC> that's what I talked about previous meeting ?
<Mez> yes, and you was asked to deliver a report about your research into it and what your plans were to implement it in this meeting
<Mez> I assume you dont have that
<JanC> what do you mean by "research" & "implement" ?
<Mez> research   Audio pronunciation of "research" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (r-srch, rsrch)
<Mez> n.
<Mez>    1. Scholarly or scientific investigation or inquiry. See Synonyms at inquiry.
<Mez>    2. Close, careful study.
<Mez> tr.v. implemented, implementing, implements (-mnt)
<Mez>    1. To put into practical effect; carry out: implement the new procedures.
<Mez>    2. To supply with implements.
<dholbach> i'm just a spectator - but is this about goals to accomplish to a specific date?
<Mez> dholbach, no, I asked JanC to look into the idea more and think about how they'd like to implement it within NUN, as it was a foundation of an idea last meeting
<dholbach> i see
<Mez> so, JanC any progress?
<Mez> well, if you have poke me, for now, I'll carry on with the rest of the agenda
<JanC> Mez : sorry, but I don't understand what you want
<Mez> JanC, we'll delay till next meeting then
<Mez> and i'll explain some other time
<Mez> next item is " Review of Guidelines Policy"
<JanC> that's about: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewUsersNetworkGuidelines ?
<Mez> Basically, the concept of signing the guidelines seems to have caused more hassle than anything, so I suggest a modification of them so that by being part of the NUN, you agree to abide by the guidelines, 
<Mez> instead of having to sign them, by applying, you agree to abide by them
<Mez> It makes life easier really.
<Mez> Any thoughts on that
<JanC> I think that's no problem...
<Mez> fair enough, then if noone's got a problem with that, it's the end of the meeting
<Mez> night everyone
<Mez> and thanks for turning up
<JanC> btw: I have a remark about point 5 of those guidelines
<JanC> IMHO point 5 should be more generic, more something like: "5. NEVER advise to use repositories that contain packages compiled for debian (e.g. marrillat), there are significant differences between ubuntu and debian, which will often result in problems.  This also causes problems for the developers when they investigate bug reports."
<Mez> I'll email out the time for the next meeting when we work out when we need a meeting
<Mez> JanC - make up an agenda for the next meerting and add it to that, I dont want to pass any changes to the guidelines without other people here
<JanC> okay, and let me know what exactly you want from me  :-)
<dholbach> dont you want to discuss it at least together?
<JanC> added: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NUNAgenda
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-08-12
<fabbione> doko: i solved the gettext problem....
<fabbione> it was gcc-4.0 not updated...
<fabbione> in the chroot
<fabbione> thanks a lot for the hint
<doko> one problem less :-)
<fabbione> we really need to get binutils fixed on sparc :(
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-08-14
<Mez> WANTED: very brave user with Ubuntu hoary who doesnt mind reinstalling
<jbailey> Mez: Reinstalling because it might break?
<Mez> yeah
<jbailey> Mez: I'm a bit busy atm, but if you can't find anyone else, ping me. 
<Mez> we have someone I think
<Mez> but, if it works, I may poke you for more testing
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:dholbach] : Agendas: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board | 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team | 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 24 Aug 20:00 UTC: MOTU
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:dholbach] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 9 Aug 20:00 UTC: Tech Board | 11 Aug 22:00 UTC: Doc Team | 16 Aug 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 24 Aug 20:00 UTC: MOTU
<dholbach> sorry for the noise
<bddebian> Welcome Mez
<Mez> ty
<bddebian> Welcome tseng
<tseng> hi.
<pitti> Hi
<bddebian> Welcome pitti, seb128
<seb128> hi
<mdz> pitti: only if Keybuk appears...
<mdz> sabdfl is not available
<mdz> there is nothing on the agenda but MaintainerCandidates, and we can't process those without a quorum
<bddebian> Not much on the agenda today :-)
<pitti> if that becomes another 8 minute meeting, so much the better :-)
<Mez> mdz: If you gave me his address I could driver over there and pole him
<Mez> s/driver/drive
<mdz> Mez: you are in birmingham?
<bddebian> Hello ogra
<Mez> mdz: Sort of :D
<Mez> lol
<Mez> but I guess keybuk sint
<Mez> (as usual)
<ogra> hey
<mdz> are the maintainer candidates present?
<mdz> at least BenC is
<sistpoty> sorry for being late
<bddebian> Dunno, I guess maybe I'm not supposed to be one?
<Mez> bddebian, = Barry De Freeze
* sistpoty is Stefan Potyra
<mdz> got an SMS back from Scott; he is also unavailable
<ogra> hmm
<Mez> meeting adjourned ? :P
<mdz> so I'm afraid we won't be able to deal with any agenda items which require a vote
<mdz> which includes maintainers
<mdz> any other business?
<Mez> backports?
<Mez> (j/k_
<bddebian> Some "quantified" MOTU process?
* bddebian hides
<ogra> "quantified" ?
<Mez> I think he means "docvumented"
<Mez> s/v//
<mdz> sounds like not ;-)
<mdz> we'll adjourn, then
<dholbach> have a nice evening
<mdz> we may try to schedule an ad hoc meeting later this week
<bddebian> Heya dholbach
<mdz> will mail ubuntu-devel in that case
<dholbach> thanks
<mdz> apologies to those who were here to be processed
<mdz> we'll get to you as soon as we can
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<bddebian> No worries, thanks mdz
<dholbach> hi bddebian :)
<pitti> have a nice evening, guys
<bddebian> I guess I should quit doing anything until I have someone to vouch for me then eh? ;-)
<sistpoty> lol 
<Mez> bddebian, no, cause your work vouches for you too... 
<ogra> bddebian, i'd have vouched for you today :)
<ogra> lets see about next time :-P
<bddebian> Mez: How if no one looks at it? ;-P
<bddebian> ogra: I'm being a little bit of a smart-ass, please ignore me :)
<Mez> bddebian, lol - I had the same thing, just wait for review day
<ogra> bddebian, i was serious :)
<Mez> bddebian, I woulda vouched for you aswell.... as long as you agreed to help on the KDE stuff :P
<bddebian> Mez: I'll help on anything as long as someone gives me a better idea of what needs to be done
<Mez> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUTodo
<bddebian> Uhm
<bddebian> I don't see anything on there about KDE stuff?  Am I missing it?
<shawarma> MOTUTodo is the up-to-date place to look for stuff to do, is it? I've quit my job, last day of work is this friday, so I'll be having quite a bit more time available to hack on ubuntu..
<bddebian> shawarma: The UniverseUnmetDeps is a huge list and needs love :-)
<allee> bddebian: pinging Riddell for KDE todos is a good (best) idea 
<bddebian> Mez: See 40+ packages from MoM means nothing.. ;-P
<Mez> bddebian, :P
<shawarma> bddebian: I'll take a look at it. Oh, from this friday on, it's freedom all the way.
<bddebian> shawarma: Great, thanks
* bddebian is now MOTU Cheerleader :-)
<shawarma> bddebian: Hehe..
<Riddell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KubuntuSuggestedPackages  check it's not already in revu or breezy
<sistpoty> ping elmo
<bddebian> Heya madduck
<madduck> there's a meeting in progress, right?
<ogra> nope
<bddebian> nope
<ogra> its already over
<madduck> ah, ok.
<ogra> (lasted only 10 mins or so)
<bddebian> And you have been volunteered ;-P
<madduck> i just got home.
<madduck> anyway, hi all.
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-08-07
<digitalmouse> greetings programs!
<ompaul> hello world?
* Fujitsu greets ompaul.
<ompaul> hi there
<rodarvus> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: August 07 2006, 10:47:49 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 2 days
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-08-08
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 09 Aug 07:00: Edubuntu | 10 Aug 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 16:00: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 15:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-08-09
<freeflying> @schedule shanghai
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Asia/Shanghai: 09 Aug 20:00: Edubuntu | 10 Aug 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 Aug 05:00: Kubuntu | 16 Aug 04:00: Technical Board | 17 Aug 04:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* MasterM snickers
<MarcelDel> ello*
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 09 Aug 07:00: Edubuntu | 10 Aug 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 16:00: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 15:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<nixternal> oh good n early \o/
<Ekushey> anyone knows when is the next community committee meeting?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<ogra> hey
<ogra> sorry for forgetting about it
<ogra> but i'm very busy with implementing local device support
<cbx33> np ogra 
<ogra> ah
<ogra> ok, quick tech update: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ltsp-tarballs/ has a recent ppc tarball from last night
<ogra> i'll trigger i386 afetr the meeting
<Petaris> cool
<ogra> local device support should be implemented by end of the week, i'm making good progress here
<ogra> cdroms are a but tricky...
<ogra> but i'm getting there
<ogra> oh, and the dapper pointrelease CD is done ...
<Petaris> Will this be backported to dapper?
<ogra> should be published the next days
<jsgotangco_> hey
<jsgotangco_> sorry about that
<ogra> lets see if i can ... depends on the dependencys ... the prob with backporting is that ltsp made a quantum jump in its code between dapper and edgy
<Petaris> ok
<ogra> i.e. everything is modular and plugin based now ... that wasnt the case in dapper
<Petaris> How goes local apps for ltsp?
<ogra> so thats it from the tech side
<ogra> not specced for edgy
<Petaris> ahh, ok
<ogra> edgy will have automatic swap support, an automatic dhcp configuration in the edubuntu installer and local devices and some minor improvements
<ogra> that are the biggest changes
<Petaris> End of meeting?
<irvin> :)
<ogra> grmpf
<Petaris> grmpf?
<ogra> yes, xchat seems to have lost its auto-rejoin capabilities
<Petaris> ahh
<jsgotangco> heh
<ogra> ok, thats all from the tech side ... anyone from the doc side here ?
<ogra> any news ? 
<ogra> hmm, doesnt look like
<ogra> art ?
<ogra> cbx33, any news from AliasVegas ?
<cbx33> yes
<ogra> tell us :)
<cbx33> she is working with Jane on creating the 3 new wallapers
<ogra> cool
<cbx33> and I think she is currently working usplash
<cbx33> and gnome splash
<cbx33> jane has done some nice icon designs
<ogra> even cooler !
<jsgotangco> usplash WOW
<cbx33> we're getting there ogra 
<ogra> yeah, looks like
<cbx33> I know it seems like not a lots happeneing :p
<cbx33> but it is
<cbx33> :D
<ogra> well, silent crativity ;)
<cbx33> yes
<ogra> *creativity
* cbx33 is also still working on startup sounds
<jsgotangco> it'll pick up halfway when edgy is quite usable
<cbx33> any ideas or suggestions to try please do so
<ogra> edgy is quite usable :)
<ogra> jsgotangco, dont be a coward :)
<jsgotangco> ogra: dude it doesn't even work on my rig :/
<jsgotangco> it doesn't see my interfaces at all
<cbx33> heh
<ogra> bah ... thats evil
<jsgotangco> anyways
<jsgotangco> i got to talk to someone today
<jsgotangco> we're going to do a test pilot of implementing edubuntu 1:1
<ogra> 1:1 ?
<cbx33> :)
<jsgotangco> pc/student ratio
<Petaris> ogra: will a dist-upgrade from dapper bring me to edgy without borkign the system?
<jsgotangco> non-ltsp
<Petaris> er, borking
<ogra> Petaris, it *could* ... no promises 
<ogra> dont do it in production :)
<Petaris> ok
<Petaris> this is a production server
<ogra> any other artwork stuff ? 
<ogra> any management or community related news ? 
<cbx33> nope
<ogra> hmm, no RichEd
<ogra> rodarvus, anything additionally from your side ? 
<rodarvus> oh, sorry
<rodarvus> I was concentrated working and totally forgot meeting
<ogra> (i forgot about it as well)
<cbx33> so did everyone else :p
<ogra> we just started 
<rodarvus> let me read the backlog before mentioning anything else :)
<cbx33> I thought you guys had changed it without telling me
<cbx33> :p
<cbx33> thought you didn't want me
<ogra> cbx33, !!
<cbx33> heheh
<rodarvus> so, yes, my comments on technical side
<rodarvus> ogra and I decided ogra will take over my LTSP specs for Edgy
<cbx33> oh, not strictly edubuntu related....I'm going to be making some video tutorials
<ogra> oh, right, i totally forgot to mention that
<rodarvus> because I have to start working RSN on Ubuntu OLPC effort
<cbx33> :)
<rodarvus> so, its quite likely that you'll hear something about Ubuntu OLPC on the next few weeks
<ogra> with some very tight deadlines :)
<rodarvus> indeed
<rodarvus> really really tight deadlines :)
<rodarvus> isn't ubuntu always like that? :)
<ogra> well, if you wouldnt have X alongside that would be fine :)
<ogra> but i assume X will eat a lot of bughunting time
<rodarvus> actually I plan to partly give up on X soon
<cbx33> rodarvus, i tried to get a board
<rodarvus> it *has* to be a team effort
<cbx33> but my reaons were not good enough
<rodarvus> you can't work on both X and OLPC
<rodarvus> both are rather full time jobs
<rodarvus> cbx33, and did you get an answer from them?
<cbx33> yes
<ajmitch> rodarvus: good idea, I'll talk to you later about X stuff :)
<ogra> i'd really really love to rewrite dexconf ... but not with that mount of specs
<rodarvus> ajmitch, sure, nice
<ogra> *amount
<rodarvus> ogra, yup, that was one of my plans for X on edgy+1
<cbx33> they said that helpnig with edubuntu on olpc development didn't benefit them much
<ogra> and we'll need a gui for dualhead cofiguration
<ogra> but thats also edgy+1
<ogra> final call, any management or community related news ? 
<ogra> or anything else from anybody ? 
<cbx33> oh
<cbx33> one more thing
<ogra> right
<cbx33> it was declined to take edubuntu to the BETTShow2007
<jsgotangco> oh well
<cbx33> just thought I'd mention that as there was some interest
<ogra> any reason why ? 
<rodarvus> declined by who, RichEd?
<cbx33> ask RichEd
<cbx33> no
<ogra> i guess RichEd is to busy 
<cbx33> by canonical
<rodarvus> oh
<cbx33> it was basically that edubuntu isn't making enough 
<cbx33> to be able to fund a venture like that
<ogra> hmm, i thought exactly that would be RichEds job
<jsgotangco> we're getting there
* jsgotangco is trying hard
<ogra> but i might be wrong
<jsgotangco> we're going to do a 3 month study over here
<jsgotangco> using most of the Edubuntu standard apps with a school's curriculum for group dynamics
<ogra> nice !
<jsgotangco> yep i'll definitely have concrete stuff before this month ends
<cbx33> nice
<cbx33> ogra, I was as supprised
<cbx33> but nevermind
<jsgotangco> don't be
<jsgotangco> cbx33: you're in a school right? no plans inside there?
<cbx33> I'm implementing an edubuntu server as we speak
<cbx33> well, tomorrow I'll be continuing anyway :p
* Petaris is in a school two, and has two ltsp labs
<Petaris> s/two/to
<jsgotangco> what we're doing is using edubuntu to complement the curriculum
<jsgotangco> even if its a small deployment, we will get metrics on student improvements
<jsgotangco> the project does benefit edubuntu, but generally, it gives a good impression on the state of free software in my place
<jsgotangco> if you have performance metrics, it gives value added to edubuntu imho
<ogra> absolutely
<jsgotangco> this will be entirely new for me so i will pick RichEd's brains for this
<cbx33> well we ran a trial edubuntu server last year
<cbx33> and the kids loved it
<cbx33> so I'm implementing a more solid solution this time
<cbx33> 9 clients off a laptop isn't ideal
<ogra> heh
<ogra> depends on the memory
<ogra> i'm running 3 clients on my lappie currently
<ogra> which works fine with 1gig
<ogra> ok, if there is nothing additionally, i'd say lets close 
<ogra> going once
<ogra> going twice
<ogra> sold :)
<rodarvus> :)
<ogra> all chatting moves to #edubuntu :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<dholbach> night guys
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-08-10
* #ubuntu-meeting  [freenode-info]  if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<mvo> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 10 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 23:00: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu
<RichEd> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: August 10 2006, 12:22:13 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 2 hours 37 minutes
<RichEd> @now johannesbugr
<RichEd> @now johannesburg
<Ubugtu> Current time in Africa/Johannesburg: August 10 2006, 14:22:28 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 2 hours 37 minutes
<RichEd> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 10 Aug 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 21:00: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 20:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 12:00: Edubuntu
<RichEd> @schedule Johannesburg
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Africa/Johannesburg: 10 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 23:00: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu
<digitalmouse> @now Berlin
<Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Berlin: August 10 2006, 14:46:41 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 2 hours 13 minutes
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 11 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 Aug 07:00: Kubuntu | 16 Aug 06:00: Technical Board | 17 Aug 06:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<imbrandon> @schedule us/central
<Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Central: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 16:00: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 15:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 07:00: Edubuntu
* BenC pings
<pitti> hi everyone
* ogra pongs
<pitti> Hey BenC 
<ogra> heya
* imbrandon yawns 
<BenC> mdz: can you drop me a few slots on the list?
<BenC> pitti: hey
* pitti hugs Keybuk 
<BenC> pitti: hey, kernel upload got delayed, getting an upload ready now though
<fschoep> Good evening everyone.
<pitti> BenC: did you see my latest mail?
<pitti> BenC: current state should work reasonably, but could use a small improvement
<BenC> pitti: #u-k, let me know what you need and I can try to get it in
<pitti> BenC: it's in the mail
<pitti> BenC: but no hurry, it can be added later
<Riddell> hi all
<mvo> isn't it meeting time now?
<iwj> I thought so.
<pitti> yep, should
<fschoep> I think so.
<seb128> yep
<pitti> mdz?
<iwj> mdz, sfllaw ?
<sfllaw> iwj: Yup.
<sfllaw> iwj: It is.
<sfllaw> I suppose if mdz doesn't show up, we can hold this meeting ourselves.
<sfllaw> And just send him the log.
<Riddell> I volunteer sfllaw to be our mdz
<sfllaw> Oh great.
<Keybuk> Riddell++
<infinity> sfllaw: I suggest you chair the meeting and begin nowish.
<BenC> pitti: I replied, the filename already gets passed
<sfllaw> First mdz suckers me into sending out announcements...
<sfllaw> Right.
<iwj> sfllaw: You have a list of people ? :-)
<sfllaw> Yeah.  Lemme look into this.
<Riddell> list is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20060810
<sfllaw> Has anyone seen jono?
<BenC_mdz> I'll do it
<Keybuk> is jono expected at these?
<sfllaw> I suppose not.  But I think he was invited specifically to this one.
<seb128> he has not started yet, so I would say he's not
<sfllaw> Ah.  He asked about it in some e-mails.
<sfllaw> infinity: Ping
<Keybuk> I've text him just in case
<sfllaw> Kamion: ping
<Riddell> Kamion's on holiday
<Riddell> infinity is here
<infinity> sfllaw: Err, yes?  I just spoke to you. :)
<sfllaw> fabbione: Ping.
<rodarvus> is someone able to sms/phone mdz?
<sfllaw> infinity: Sorry.
<fschoep> kwwii (Kenneth Wimer) is on a holiday as well I think
<fabbione> sfllaw: i am on paternity leave
<sfllaw> Is dholbach on holiday too?
<fabbione> sfllaw: i have been for the last almost 2 weeks
<sfllaw> fabbione: Oh yeah.  Go back to being a father.
<fabbione> sfllaw: thanks :)
<sfllaw> heno: Ping.
<seb128> sfllaw: dholbach is on holidays since today
<Riddell> dholbach did depart saying he'd see us in Weisbiden
<heno> sfllaw: pong
<sfllaw> mvo: Ping.
<mvo> hello sff
<seb128> mvo should be around :)
<mvo> hello sfllaw
<doko> fabbione: don't play with your sun, it's your son :)
<sfllaw> Any Mithrandir?
<fabbione> doko: ..|.. ;)
<mvo> have fun fabbione
<fabbione> Mith is in honeymoon
<Riddell> he's honeymooning
<pitti> sfllaw: Mithrandir is on honeymoon
<sfllaw> Man, all these people enjoying summer.
<fabbione> sfllaw: today sucks to be you
<seb128> sfllaw: holidays until sprint
<ogra> if that calendar in th ecompany tool would be usable, we'd know ;)
<sfllaw> Let's begin, shall we?
<Riddell> welcome jono 
<pitti> hi jono
<jono> hi folks
<sfllaw> jono: Hi.  I'd thought I'd invite you so you can see what we do.
<Riddell> we're about to begin
<seb128> sfllaw: do you sometime look on your mails? people usually send a mail saying they are on holidays and when they come back ;)
<jono> sounds good, I will need to dip in and out thought
<sfllaw> seb128: It drops out of my brain because I see too many bugs.
<sfllaw> My attention span is now very small.
<sfllaw> So let's do this in boring order.
<sfllaw> infinity, you start first.
<infinity> Last week:
<infinity> - Discussions with pitti about .ddeb support on the buildds
<infinity> - Work on new LRM (which will be a 2-part upload, after discussion with BenC, he'll do half, and I'll get the other half in shortly after him)
* mvo wonders how much attention span seb128 has left then 
<infinity> - Work on keeping the buildds limping along, with several measured and mass give-backs, and some by-hand bootstrapping of snags
<infinity> - Violently mangle the livecd generation scripts and wrapper to allow building dapper livefses for Colin
<infinity> - Start work and testing of the stacked filesystem infrastructure, almost complete, but rollout blocked on getting kernel support on the buildds
<infinity> Next week:
* seb128 hugs mvo
<infinity> - Finish stacked filesystem work, and bug elmo again about kernel support
<infinity> - Sort out the changes required for debian-maintainer-field, and roll out to the buildds
<infinity> - Continue to mangle buildds and build failures, as per usual
<infinity> - Watch for fallout from impending LRM changes
<ogra> mvo, enough for hugging :)
<infinity> - Work on .ddeb support, as specced with pitti last week
<Riddell> infinity: LRM?
* mvo hugs ogra
<infinity> *cough*
<infinity> Riddell: linux-restricted-modules, sorry.  I'm a TLA whore.
<iwj> infinity: What's a .ddeb ?
<infinity> (Three Letter Acronym)
* ogra hugs mvo and seb128 
<pitti> iwj: detached debug symbols
<ogra> iwj, debugging deb
<iwj> Oh, right, those things.
<pitti> iwj: to be named .ddeb to get a different namespace
<Keybuk> infinity: s/Acryonym/Abbreviation/
<sfllaw> infinity: Are the buildds going to give us long-term trouble?  Could they hold up the release?
<Keybuk> neither LRM or TLA are acronyms </pedant> :p
<infinity> sfllaw: The buildds always give us trouble, that's why I have a job. :P
<infinity> sfllaw: But they never seem to stop us from releasing, no.
<sfllaw> Anyone else have questions?
<sfllaw> OK.
<sfllaw> BenC?
<Riddell> thanks for the mass give backs infinity 
<Keybuk> sfllaw: Soyuz automatically breaks whenever we have anything critical happening
<imbrandon> heh
<Riddell> BenC asked to be delayed i think
<sfllaw> I must have missed that.
<sfllaw> Kamion?
<Riddell> holiday
<sfllaw> fschoep?
<rodarvus> sfllaw, you seem to have a very little attention span today :)
<fschoep> Ongoing:
<fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-login-manager, ubuntu-art-login-splash, ubuntu-art-usplash, ubuntu-art-wallpaper: cull proposals, choose direction
<fschoep>  * art-polish-human-gtk-theme: identify areas for improvement, now with community backing till 10th of August
<fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-complete-highcontrast-icons, : find and document icons which need work
<fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-cd-dvd-artwork: communication with Jane / Kenneth on improving media package artwork
<fschoep>  * starting up / assisting sound engineering
<fschoep> To-do:
<fschoep>  * finish submission of GTK theme tweaks, start coding good ideas
<fschoep>  * approve artwork production directions, then kick off production phase for community artwork
<fschoep>  * update the Human icon priority list with the contents of the PDF to-do list
<fschoep> It was quite a slow week regarding artwork, but it's getting more interesting now.
<Riddell> I think fschoep's report should include screenshots :)
<sfllaw> That's mean.
<ogra> asciiart !!!
<cbx33> Riddell, and sound bytes :p
<pitti> in ascii art? :)
<fschoep> Riddell: I had some last time, this time it's kinda hard to do :)
<cbx33> I'll start drawing ascii waveforms :p
<iwj> fschoep: Did you know that firefox-themes-ubuntu doesn't work with ff 2.0 beta ?
<fschoep> iwj: yes
<ogra> iwj, btw, you didnt answer my ff theme question
<iwj> ogra: Which one ?
<ogra> iwj, cant we just replace the icons with different ones and keep the names ? would ff pick them up ?
<ogra> s/names/names and paths/
<iwj> ogra: I don't think that's a very good idea.  It would make the ff package build-depend on the artwork.
<ogra> nd make the packages conflict
<fschoep> ogra: iwj: maybe discuss this via e-mail?
<ogra> yep
<fschoep> CC me and I'll shine my light over it
<sfllaw> Thanks.  Any other questions?
<fschoep> I wasn't aware of any active problems right now, so I'm interested.
<ogra> thats why i answered ... to the one on -devel ... just wanted to draw some attention :)
<sfllaw> OK.
<sfllaw> heno?
<heno> Done:
<heno>  * Attended the OATS project launch in London. Blog entry here: http://blog.omma.net/?p=7
<heno>  * Further work on SOK (now called onBoard). A basic scanning feature and better layout customisation implemented. 
<heno>  * Testing Orca/gnome-speech on Edgy. There are some problems with various applications still.
<heno> Todo:
<heno>  * Write a script for performing some AT setup tasks. Could possibly be a GUI as well. I can do the Glade work but I'll need help with the python (or whatever) back-end.
<heno>  * livecd-access - no change - are there any gfxboot/LiveCD people who are not on holiday?
<fschoep> heno: do you still need work on those keyboard layouts?
<heno> fschoep: We have a fair number now, but I'm sure the design and colour choices could be better :)
<fschoep> heno: OK, shall we e-mail on that to get you something beautiful then ?
<heno> see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Projects/SOK/layouts
<heno> yes please :)
<fschoep> OK, noted.
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<sfllaw> iwj?
<iwj> automated-testing-deployment: Snapshot resumption works.  Just need to glue it into autopkgtest now.  Currently on hold due to firefox 2 beta merge.
<iwj> xen-edgy: No significant change since last week.  Chuck has included some shell script patches from me to improve virtual machine resumption time.
<iwj> package-dependency-field-breaks: No activity this week.
<iwj> suggest-packages-for-filetypes: Not started.
<iwj> firefox 2.0 beta merge: Ug.  Currently testing/bugfixing.  There seems to be an incompatibility with the themes.  And other problems.
<fschoep> iwj: I think I can help you majorly with the themes.
<iwj> fschoep: Right.  When I get it working apart from that I'll get back to you.
<fschoep> iwj: OK, thanks.
<heno> me again: when does the gfxboot stuff freeze? How worried should I be about those changes not being implemented yet?
<iwj> I'll upload it anyway and that way we can fix what's there.
<iwj> fschoep: Thanks for the offer of help, though, I expect to need it.
<fschoep> iwj: No problem, I got you into the theme things to begin with, so I'd better help you out.
<iwj> :-)
<fschoep> heno: is gfxboot about GRUB artwork?
* rodarvus_ sighs
<rodarvus_> if someone said anything to me, please repeat - I lost my connection :/
<heno> fschoep: no, about a large-icon menu in gfxboot
<heno> with sounds
<sfllaw> iwj: Do we expect Firefox to ship by September?  And if not, is the beta Good Enough?
<Riddell> gfxboot is used for the CDs
<pitti> rodarvus: nothing directly to you so far
<fschoep> heno: OK, just checking, since it's not on my radar I'm afraid.
<iwj> sfllaw: I have no idea.  Mozilla expect it to ship by then but I wouldn't trust them.
<rodarvus> pitti, thanks
<iwj> mdz tells me the request for the 2.0 beta comes from Mark and realistically we don't have a plan B once we put the 2.0 in edgy.
<sfllaw> Ugh.
<ogra> fschoep, it was a usplash ripoff in deapper ... might be we'll do the same in edgy
<sfllaw> QA hat on: I don't like the sound of that.
<heno> perhaps I should just mail -devel with the current status and questions
<ogra> fun :)
<ogra> its edgy, isnt it :)
<sfllaw> Anyway, no more questions.
<iwj> sfllaw: If you want the decision changed you have about a day.
<sfllaw> iwj: Nope.  I'll deal with it when it hits the fan.
<iwj> If nothing horrid happens I'll probably upload, committing us, tomorrow.
<fschoep> ogra: I see, it's just never gotten onto the work list for the artwork team
<iwj> OK.
<sfllaw> You can still browse the web, right?
<iwj> At the moment just barely :-).
<rodarvus> in a desperate situation firefox could be reversed to 1.5, couldn't it?
<rodarvus> (at least I can't see why not)
<pitti> iwj: 1.5+2.0beta+reverted-to-1.5-1, we had this exercise already :)
<iwj> rodarvus: In theory but it would be a real PITA.
<ogra> heh
<iwj> pitti: Quite :-/.
<sfllaw> Riddell?
<Riddell> hi, I have an update from kwwii
<Riddell> 1) worked on window deco graphics (buttons and colors)
<Riddell> 2) worked more on the wallpaper ideas used in knot2 (matching the colors
<Riddell> used in the window deco, etc.), and creating variants of those.
<Riddell> 3) hacking HTML/CSS and making images for the KDE app start pages still,
<Riddell> trying to find some community help on this
<Riddell> 4) finishing up BZR-NG GUI icons (summer of code project)
<Riddell> we have a nice new purple feel to kubuntu now thanks to kwwii
<Riddell> and from me:
<Riddell> done:
<Riddell>     kubuntu-laptop-buttons: working fully for me, further testing needed (thanks to Lure)
<Riddell>     kubuntu-power-management: new HAL frontend written, working fully for me, further testing needed (thanks to sebas)
<Riddell>     kubuntu-system-settings-usability: new layout implemented, some tweaks needed (thanks to Sime)
<seb128> iwj: does 2.0 will break apps using gecko?
<Riddell>     also dapper point release testing
<Riddell>     soc: working with abattoir on kubuntu oem-installer
<Riddell> blocked:
<Riddell>     ruby1.8
<Riddell>     backports
<Riddell> todo:
<Riddell>     kubuntu-accessibility (get kdeaccessibilty into main)
<iwj> seb128: very probably.
<Riddell>     kubuntu-hwdb
<iwj> I haven't got that far.
<iwj> yet
<seb128> iwj: do you have public packages I could play with before you break GNOME by uploading? :)
<ogra> time for xulrunner :)
* ogra hides
<iwj> seb128: Not yet but I can give you a sneak preview if you want.
<sfllaw> Riddell: Can anyone help with your blocked items?
<iwj> ATM they're too broken to give to you, really, but some time tomorrow and I could delay the actual upload until Monday ?
<Riddell> sfllaw: dunno, I don't think we have any ruby experts with a powerpc
<mvo> iwj: I would be interessted as well
<iwj> mvo: OK, I'll post to ubuntu-devel :-).
<Riddell> sfllaw: and Kamion said he had a plan for backports, but presumably it's ultimately a soyuz team issue
<seb128> iwj: no hurry but you start having packages ready to use that would be nice, so I can prepare GNOME updates that need to be uploaded when the new firefox is uploaded
<iwj> seb128: Right, quite so.
<mvo> thanks iwj
<seb128> thank you
<seb128> s/you start/when you start/
<sfllaw> Riddell: OK.  Give us a shout if the situation changes for that.
<sfllaw> Any more questions?
<iwj> seb128: I don't plan to have two uploads unless I can help it, so I'm going to try to fix all of the showstoppers now and leave anything else to fester until shortly before release.
<seb128> ok
<sfllaw> Right.
<sfllaw> pitti?
<pitti> Done:
<pitti>  * auto-unmount-notifications: First implementation uploaded, announced, waiting for test results
<pitti>  * automated-problem-reports:
<pitti>    - discussed update-notifier fixes with mvo, everything should be fixed in the very latest uplaod
<pitti>    - discussed KDE frontend with Riddell (not for edgy, KDE's crash handler is deemed good enough)
<pitti>    - discussed required kernel changes with BenC, next kernel will bring full backtrace and core dump love
<pitti>    - polished UI, core dump shrinking, fixed some bugs, adapted to new (future) kernel behaviour
<pitti>    - started writing a tool to produce symbolic stacktraces from a crash report and ddebs
<pitti>  * pkg-create-dbgsym: discussion with infinity about cowboying .ddebs to a public inofficial place; we agreed to the process and structure, needs implementation on buildds and on rookery now
<pitti>  * dapper point release CD testing
<pitti>  * security update: libwmf (quiet week, *happy*)
<pitti>  * thoughts about new sponsoring process, wrote tool, created teams, announced to u-devel for testing; seems to work pretty well
<pitti>  * misc: various bug fixes (pmount, hal, langpacks), locales updates
<pitti> Todo:
<pitti>  * automated-problem-reports: new kernel should be uploaded RSN; test with new kernel, make final adoptions to apport, coordinate required bug-buddy/gnome changes with seb128, stick into ubuntu-desktop, announce for testing
<pitti>  * security updates
<pitti>  * catch up with bug triage
<pitti> [end]  sorry, long vehicle
<sfllaw> pitti: Do you need help with CD testing?
<sfllaw> I think some people in #ubuntu-bugs might be interested.
<pitti> sfllaw: too late, dapper point release is out :)
<sfllaw> As well as the Laptop Testing team.
<sfllaw> Well then.
<sfllaw> Never mind.
<sfllaw> Any other questions?
* pitti hugs the people who helped him with apport stuff
* seb128 hugs pitti
<sfllaw> doko?
<doko> - this week
<doko>   - openoffice.org 2.0.3: decided against 2.0.3 for dapper-updates, two regressions in -calc with auto filters. started 2.0.4 builds for edgy.
<doko>   - edgy-toolchain: benchmarking the biarch compiler and a biarch-disabled compiler (checking for compile time regressions after a discussion with Maxim), sparc and powerpc still needed.
<doko>   - FC backport of classpath-0.92 to gcj-4.1; uploaded; shiny new things, including new gcjwebplugin
<doko>   - python2.5: update to beta3 (final release delayed to Sept 12).
<doko>   - fastjar security updates (partly done)
<doko> - next week
<doko>   - looking at gcc build failures on powerpc
<doko>   - openoffice.org: upload of 2.0.4 milestone
<doko>   - catch up / update status on all specs before the sprint
<pitti> doko: oh, nice to know that you are doing fastjar
<pitti> doko: the directory traversal?
<doko> yes
<sfllaw> Questions?
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<sfllaw> mvo?
<mvo> Did:
<mvo> * 3rd party software work (pandasoft)
<mvo> * apt:
<mvo>   - ddtp support added to python-apt, synaptic, pending inclusion into lp-production 
<mvo>   - ddtp synces with debian and improved the tools
<mvo>   - added --{no-}install-recommends and implemented
<mvo>     install-new-recommends-on-upgrade logic, uploaded, install-recommends by default not yet enabled by default (announcement pending)
<mvo>   - implmented/tested a 90% complete sha256 (apt-get source and .dsc file support missing) branch (md5 replaced as standard hash)
<mvo> * command-not-found-magic initial version uploaded (in NEW)
<mvo> * update-notifier improvments to notify about crash-reports
<mvo> * misc (python-vte, system-tools-backends, gdebi, gksu,libgksu, language-selector, update-manager)
<mvo> Blocked:
<mvo> * review of the "AlwaysEnableUniverseMultiverse" spec
<mvo> Will do:
<mvo> * merge ddtp into apt, python-apt, synaptic (if it enters launchpad this week)
<mvo> * announce that "recommends" will be installed shortly by default
<mvo> * start with the cdrom-based dist-upgrade support
<mvo> * look into what aptitudes needs to natively work with the new apt auto-remove
<sfllaw> The recommends behaviour for apt-get?
<Keybuk> mvo: aptitude is VERY slow for me since the upgrade ... is that known bug?
<Keybuk> it can sit for up to an hour in "blah blah package states"
<Keybuk> (upgrade to edgy)
<mvo> Keybuk: it was reported, but I have not yet investigated it
<Riddell> mvo: what is software-properties?
<rodarvus> mvo, I wonder if apt-get can somehow force update of dpkg  before an upgrade from dapper to edgy
<mvo> Keybuk: bug 51893
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 51893 in aptitude "aptitude pegs cpu for extended period of time on startup" [Untriaged,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/51893
<Riddell> looking at AlwaysEnableUniverseMultiverse
<mvo> Riddell: the sources.list editor in gtk
<rodarvus> (necessary for new Breaks: field)
<seb128> mvo: would have be nice to announce "install Recommends by default" some time before implementing it to let time to fix packages abusing from Recommends atm ...
<mvo> rodarvus: no, but the dist-upgrade tool can do this - and we need to put it into the release notes
<Riddell> mvo: right
<rodarvus> mvo, right
<mvo> seb128: it is implemented :) its just not enabled yet
<rodarvus> this is quite important, then
<mvo> rodarvus: yes
<mvo> indeed
<seb128> mvo: yeah, what I said, would have been nice to announce it before implementing :p
<seb128> mvo: we need a "clean Recommends usage" spec ;)
<rodarvus> users might end up with a broken X if they upgrade from dapper to edgy and don't have the 'xorg' metapackage (and newer dpkg is not installed yet)
<mvo> seb128: yeah!
<mvo> rodarvus: ok
<Riddell> mvo: install recommends is an apt thing?  (rather than a synaptic thing?)
<iwj> rodarvus: Breaks> There's a bug against the dist upgrade tool about that.
<mvo> Riddell: sure, almost all work I do currently is apt :)
<rodarvus> iwj, nice
<mvo> Riddell: it will automatically picked up by the frontends
<Riddell> mvo: cool, that'll be fun
<mvo> Riddell: its a config option - but it is going to be fun :)
<sfllaw> It'll just be like the good old days and dselect!
<sfllaw> Anyway.
<seb128> some people still use dselect :p
<sfllaw> Let's move on, shall we?
* mvo would like to point to his DselectToUniverse spec
<sfllaw> ogra?
<ogra> * this-week:
<ogra>  - point release testing etc.
<ogra>  - thinclient-local-devices, running smoothly over here, waits for ltspfs{,d} main inclusion (took most of this week)
<ogra>  - student-control-panel-completion some bugfixes
<ogra>  - re-assigned all ltsp specs from rodrigo back to me, he'll work fulltime on olpc soon
<ogra> * next-week:
<ogra>  - finish thinclient-local-devices
<ogra>  - more serious work on student-control-panel-completion
<ogra>  - checking which bits from my (unused) dapper code fit for ltsp-dhcpd-autogeneration
<ogra> * specs: 
<ogra>  - ltsp-dhcpd-autogeneration (started/suspended, resume planned before knot-3 to have it in there for testing)
<ogra>  - student-control-panel-completion: (waiting for approval, started)
<ogra>  - ltsp-daily-image-tarballs: (in progress, scripts and tarballs available at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ltsp-tarballs/)
<ogra>  - ltsp-convergence: (no progress, hack-meeting planned for sept. 14th-19th, in michigan)
<ogra>  - ltsp-netboot-enhancement: (no progress, reviewed some debian patches for that)
<ogra>  - thinclient-local-devices (good progress (nearly done in fact, waiting for bits to move to main) scripts in review by sbalneav)
<ogra>  - fully-automatic-swap-server (no idea about progress, reassigned, need to talk to rodrigo)
<ogra>  - ltsp-login-and-session-handling (no progress yet, reassigned to me)
<ogra>  - edubuntu-xfce-desktop (no progress yet, reassigned)
<sfllaw> Questions?
<Riddell> how's the new office?
<ogra> nice !
<sfllaw> Yay!
<ogra> i have a big window and loooots of space :)
<ogra> 20sqm 
<sfllaw> rodarvus?
<rodarvus> Done:
<rodarvus>   * X.Org triaging, bug fixing
<rodarvus>   * Much Edubuntu administrativia (worth a few days of work)
<rodarvus>   * miscelaneous X.Org package upgrades
<rodarvus> Todo:
<rodarvus>   * libdrm,mesa update for new i810 driver (pending approval by mdz)
<rodarvus>   * more X.org bug triaging, bug fixing
<rodarvus>   * More Edubuntu Administrativia
<rodarvus>   * Start OLPC Edubuntu effort (first Thailand Beta due Jan 1th 2007)
<rodarvus> Issues:
<rodarvus>   * Due to OLPC, I won't be able to dedicate so much time to X.Org - help is *really* appreciated
<rodarvus>   * After talk with ogra and RichEd, we agreed ogra will take over my LTSP specs, so I can concentrate on OLPC (thanks ogra!)
<ogra> welcome :)
<rodarvus> :)
<sfllaw> rodarvus: But, but, we didn't have time to work on X.org before you came onboard!
<sfllaw> ;)
<rodarvus> sfllaw, yeah, this is my biggest fear :)
<ogra> dont worry, we'll take your OLPC work and you have time ;)
<pitti> rodarvus: you have a big X chained to your legs now ;)
<rodarvus> we are looking for an upstream X.Org developer to maintain X for Ubuntu, btw
<Riddell> rodarvus: what's the administrativia? (wondering how it compares to kubuntu administrativia)
<Keybuk> rodarvus: what's KP doing these days? <g>
<ogra> hehe
<rodarvus> Riddell, not really comparable, I fear
<ogra> Keybuk, want to switch us to 100% kdrive ?
<rodarvus> mostly Canonical internal stuff
<Keybuk> ogra: if it supports my Nvidia cards and SLI, sure <g>
<ogra> hehe
<Keybuk> it'll save infinity some repeated pain
<ogra> kdrivexgl :)
<rodarvus> Riddell, I can explain to you in privmsg if you want :) (not really the most appropriate place here)
<Riddell> rodarvus: sure
<sfllaw> Keybuk: Keith made a press release a few days ago.
<sfllaw> A press release!
<ogra> with text ? 
<sfllaw> Hmm.
<sfllaw> I think he's done.
<sfllaw> :)
<sfllaw> Keybuk?
<Keybuk> Done:
<Keybuk> - holiday, left me feeling very relaxed
<Keybuk> - ReplacementInit: made some big advancements, this should be ready before distro sprint so slightly ahead of schedule!
<Keybuk> To Do:
<Keybuk> - more of the same, hopefully get a package put together for other people to test
<Keybuk> - may write BootMessageLogging in my CST (it's needed for upstart anyway)
<Riddell> rodarvus needs to learn about screen
<ogra> Riddell, xchat doesnt run in screen :)
<pitti> Keybuk: CST?
<ogra> (note the X in xchat)
<pitti> another TLA *sigh*
<Keybuk> pitti: Copious Spare Time
<pitti> lol
<Keybuk> ogra: oddly enough, that's why I wrote dircproxy
<sfllaw> Keybuk: You'll have to give us a ReplacementInit demo during the sprint.
<rodarvus_> ahn, the joys of packaging X - it just exploded my computer :)
<sfllaw> It sounds like something edgy.
<Keybuk> sfllaw: my current goal is that I'll casually mention that you've all been running it for a week by then <g>
<ogra> Keybuk, make it a company policy that we all use it then ;)
<Keybuk> oh, random Q
<pitti> policy? for my part, I'm looking forward to try it without any force :)
<Keybuk> unsurprisingly, I haven't implemented it as specified
<ogra> i was talking about dircproxy :P
<sfllaw> Any other questions?
<pitti> ah
<Keybuk> should I update the spec?  or just accept it as a failure of intelligent design
<pitti> Keybuk: I usually retroactively change specs for the matter of having an uptodate documentation
<pitti> for small bits at least
<ogra> Keybuk, the latter ... that gives us others more freedom to say .. but Keybuk did that as well ;)
<Riddell> Keybuk: I don't tend to touch specs after approvial, I add notes at the end
<sfllaw> Keybuk: Or at least note where you deviated in a comment below.
<sfllaw> Don't feel too bad.  Upfront design almost never works.
<Keybuk> heh, you're telling me!
<Keybuk> I've decided I really can't do it
<Keybuk> this time, I had it all planned in little multi-hour chunks
<Keybuk> and I just sat there not knowing what to do
<Keybuk> so I threw it all in the bin, and just started coding without any plan
<Keybuk> much easier <g>
<sfllaw> There are ways to do this sanely, but this is probably not the place to discuss it.
<sfllaw> So, let's move on to seb128.
<sfllaw> seb128?
<seb128> This week:
<seb128> - GNOME 2.15.91 for edgy
<seb128> - backported some desktop fixes to dapper-updates
<seb128> - war against desktop bugs: load and load of bugs triaged, but there is simply too many of them for the number of people working on it, we barely keep up with new and high priority bugs at the moment (not speaking of catching with the lag)
<seb128> . 
<seb128> Next week:
<seb128> - really catch up with mails and SoC lag
<seb128> - keep triaging bugs, load and load of them still to work on
<seb128> - backporting some other desktop fixes to dapper
<sfllaw> Thanks for the bug triaging work.
<seb128> np ;)
<ogra> Keybuk, and usually *much* better results ... ;)
<seb128> have you planned to give an hand on desktop bugs btw?
<sfllaw> Yes.
<seb128> we could use some extra hands for it :)
<sfllaw> I'm going to spend some of my weekend on it too.
<seb128> I don't ask for that much
<sfllaw> That's OK.
<seb128> some week time would be a good start ;)
<sfllaw> Hey!
<sfllaw> Any other questions?
<sfllaw> All right.
<sfllaw> sfllaw?
<sfllaw> Oh wait, that's me.
* sfllaw is going senile.
<sfllaw> Done
<sfllaw>  * UbuntuMotuSchool session
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw>  * Testing various specs
<sfllaw> To do
<sfllaw>  * Aggressive bug triage
<sfllaw>  * Organizing next week's UbuntuBugDay
<sfllaw>  * Poke SoC student some more
<rodarvus> sfllaw, I'd like to know if you could give us a hand triaging some X.Org bugs?
<sfllaw> Any particular packages?
<seb128> rodarvus: desktop asked first :p
<sfllaw> A URL of a Malone query would be excellent.
<rodarvus> starting with the unconfirmed bugs for 'xorg' would be a great start
<rodarvus> seb128, oh :/
<rodarvus> haha
<sfllaw> I'll just switch over when I get bored.
<sfllaw> Or my eyes glaze over.
<sfllaw> Doing on bug triaging makes me attention span last about 60 seconds.
<rodarvus> 'xorg' is a meta-package, ideally it should have 0 bugs :)
<rodarvus> so, overal a great place to start
<seb128> GNOME is perfect, so it should have 0 bugs too :p
<rodarvus> :)
<pitti> *cough*
<ogra> just delete them :)
<pitti> seb128: apart from that icky terminal resizing bug :)
<rodarvus> yeah, all wanna-be X bugs are actually kernel, gnome or kde bugs!
<seb128> pitti: ah right, I'm not bothered about it because I don't use tabs ;)
<imbrandon> rodarvus: no kde ones !!??!!
<rodarvus> or something wrong on the users side
<imbrandon> ;)
<ogra> as long as they dont turn into ltsp bugs :)
<sfllaw> Any general issues people want to bring up?
<sfllaw> Is everyone booked for the summit?
<Riddell> I presume we won't have a Knot 2 without Kamion and Mithrandir?
<ogra> unlikely
<infinity> sfllaw: Are you ready to declare this one done, Mr. Chair?
<rodarvus> I see there are a few of us which aren't booked yet (or haven't updated the wiki page)
<infinity> Riddell: I wasn't planning on one.
<ogra> Riddell, we *could* do it on our own though ... infinity is here 
<ogra> thats all we need ;)
<sfllaw> If you haven't updated the wiki, please do so.
<rodarvus> fuJNesp3
<fschoep> rodarvus: are you talking about the "confirmed" column?
<sfllaw> That will make cvd happy.
<ogra> rodarvus, thanks :)
<rodarvus> oh
<infinity> Riddell: It could be done, but there are enough weird breakages right now, it's probably best to roll one at the end of the sprint.
<rodarvus> that was unexpected
<sfllaw> Right.  I think this meeting's done.
<infinity> rodarvus: And which machine is that password for?
<ogra> rodarvus, file a GNOME bug ;) it shouldnt steal focus
<Riddell> thanks sfllaw 
<rodarvus> fschoep, yes, and some of us also haven't filled general information
<infinity> rodarvus: And have you already changed it? :)
<rodarvus> infinity, my laptop :)
<sfllaw> Thanks all.
<pitti> general issue: how does everyone feel about their SoC students?
<sfllaw> 60 minutes.
<fschoep> Should I update "confirmed" myself, then?
<sfllaw> We did good.
<sfllaw> :)
<pitti> my SoC student is performing terribly :(
<ogra> pitti, totally good 
<rodarvus> fschoep, yup
<fschoep> OK, will do.
<sfllaw> pitti: So's mine.
<seb128> pitti: my student it barely doing anything :/
<ogra> pitti, sudo apt-get install willowng willowng-config :)
<Riddell> pitti: mostly below expectations
<sfllaw> This is pretty typical of students, though.
<sfllaw> :/
<pitti> it doesn't seem to work very well in the majority of cases
<seb128> nop
* mvo nods
* ogra is totlly happy about Amaranths work
<pitti> it was even better last year
<seb128> I've to admit I've not a lot of time to push him though
<rodarvus> ogra, actually, I have two keyboards in front of me now
<rodarvus> just typed in the wrong one
<pitti> seb128: $6000 should be push enough, I had thought...
<rodarvus> (while also looking at the wrong screen)
<seb128> pitti: yeah me too
<pitti> and I regularly stab mine, too
<ogra> rodarvus, aww, i know how that feels (i have 5 here for the thin clients)
<Keybuk> seb128: mine has vanished off the face of the earth entirely
<rodarvus> :)
<sfllaw> pitti: Money is actually a poor motivator.
<ogra> did you guys tell our SoC leader ? 
<sfllaw> It's extrinsic, instead of intrinsic.
<ogra> (doko)
<fschoep> sfllaw: interesting, is there more info on that subject?
<pitti> sfllaw: right
<Keybuk> ogra: no, because I suck more than my student
<ogra> haha
<sfllaw> fschoep: I'll dig up some links on psychology and organizational behaviour for you.
<fschoep> Great, I'd enjoy reading that.
* Keybuk tells Jane to take away sfllaw's pay cheques
<fschoep> Thanks for being ehre everyone
<rodarvus> thanks all
<rodarvus> I'll brb
<pitti> thanks everyone
<sfllaw> Keybuk: Then I wouldn't be able to eat.
<sfllaw> And would be sad.
<seb128> sfllaw: I'm sure they can send you some food instead of money :p
<sfllaw> seb128: If all my needs were met without money, I would totally work for those instead.
<sfllaw> Food, books, a bit of travel, tons of free time.
<sfllaw> I'd probably be happier too.
<seb128> right ;)
<sfllaw> Money's just convenient.
<sfllaw> Currency was a pretty useful invention.
<sfllaw> That way, Jane doesn't have to figure out what I want.
<seb128> yeah
<mdz> argh
<mdz> sfllaw: thanks for moderating
<sfllaw> mdz: No worries.
<mdz> I had the meeting marked for evening UTC
<mdz> if that ever happens again, please call me
<sfllaw> Roger that.
<sfllaw> mdz: Well, you now know that if you get hit by a bus, life will go on.
<sfllaw> :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 10 Aug 16:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 11:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 15:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 07:00: Edubuntu
<gnomefreak> i think thats wrong
<gnomefreak> kubuntu meeting is at 2100
<gnomefreak> oh nvm chicago :(
<Lure> @schedule ljubljana
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Ljubljana: 10 Aug 23:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 18:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu
<nixternal> lol @ gnomefreak ;)
<gnomefreak> ;)
<Meyer> @schedule Brazil/East
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Brazil/East: 10 Aug 18:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 13:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 17:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 17:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 09:00: Edubuntu
<imbrandon> @schedule us/central
<Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Central: 10 Aug 16:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 11:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 15:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 07:00: Edubuntu
<toma> pompompom
<toma> pompompo
<fdoving> @schedule europe/oslo
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Oslo: 10 Aug 23:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 18:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu
<toma> pompomp
<ryanakca> @schedule ottawa
<ryanakca> @schedule Toronto
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 10 Aug 17:00: Kubuntu | 14 Aug 12:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 16:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 16:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 08:00: Edubuntu
<toma> pompom
<ryanakca> hmmm.... 5pm... that's why it's so silent :)
<toma> pompo
<toma> pomp
<toma> pom
<imbrandon> ?
<toma> po
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Kubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Aug 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<toma> p
<toma> hey allee
<Sime> hey
<allee> toma: heh, just in time:)
<allee> hi Sime 
<toma> allee: busy with work or @ home?
<imbrandon> moins all
<Sime> allee: hi
<allee> toma: just arrived. And Jule made trouble.  Now she's in bed.  Puh 
<toma> allee: nice job ;-)
* allee should better send time with a familie-meeting instead of chatting ;)
<allee> eh, spend that is
<toma> sebas/sime: should we move the media item to the top of the agenda for you?
<allee> toma: ask me when you need assistance in the future ;)
<Lure> agenda is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Sime> toma: please
<nixternal> good mornin' Hobbsee!
<Hobbsee> hi all
<Lure> hi Hobbsee
<sebas> I've no problem with moving items.
<gnomefreak> hi
<allee> ho Hobbsee 
<imbrandon> wakie wakie corn flakie
<Riddell> hi all
<Hobbsee> hehe
* Hobbsee is sure it *isnt* the 10 oclock news :P
<seaLne> few minutes late for that
<imbrandon> ok everyone here ?
<sebas> Hobbsee: Depends on where you are, and what (tv / radio) channel you're on.
* Hobbsee declares it to be cold in here.
<Hobbsee> can i go back to bed?
<Hobbsee> sebas: tru
<Hobbsee> e
<sebas> Yeah, beds are good.
<Riddell> so, anyone here for membership?
* allee nods
* gnomefreak almost but ill wait til next meeting 
* DaSkreech votes for kdefreak :)
<gnomefreak> ;)
<imbrandon> Riddell: dont see anyone on the agenda , LP list ?
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: ifyou're  a ubuntu member, you dont need to get voted on being a kubuntu member too
<gnomefreak> oh i dont?
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: nope
<Riddell> doesn't need to, but can if he wants to be aligned to kubuntu too
<imbrandon> gnomefreak: no they are one in the same 
<gnomefreak> :)
<Riddell> AlejandroLeon here?
* DaSkreech peers at EdgyEft
<Riddell> ryanakca: ping
<imbrandon> yea wasent ryanakca gonna into himself ;P
<imbrandon> intro*
<seaLne> hmm :)
<Riddell> guess he's away
<Riddell> so, onto agenda
<Riddell> toma: your item
<toma> Riddell: if ok,  iwant to start with item 3 first
<toma> Sime's blog gives an interesting new perspective to KDE's file dialog. Frustrated by the media:/ I once wrote a medialib, which was meant to tackle some of the problems. But it never got in workable state. 
<toma> The basic idea of Simon is to hide all not-for-user-eyes-meant folders like (/dev, /etc, /initrd, /bin, etc). File dialogs only show /home and /media by default. 
<toma> Under /media are all devices normally visible under media:/
<toma> I fully support the idea, and I would like to know what you think about it.
* allee too  media: and system: home: made too much trouble
<Riddell> I think it sounds very interesting
<imbrandon> yea i'm +1 too for what its worth
<Lure> toma: I like Sime's work a lot and looks promising
<allee> Sime: did you get any response from other kde core members about your idea
<seaLne> toma: is it easy to get to / ?
<ryanakca> Riddell: pong
<Riddell> it might be a disaster with some unforseen circunstances, but we need to try it to find out
<Lure> and if we need something Edgy, this could be it ;-)
<Sime> I've been emailed by ervin.
<seaLne> yeah no files would be edgy
<Hobbsee> Lure: i think that for edgy we should just make kde not start.
<Hobbsee> Lure: that would be edgy enough :P
<gnomefreak> lol
<toma> Sime: what did he say?
<Sime> allee: he is interested in working together, but...
<Riddell> Sime: how close are your patches to being ready to upload?
<Sime> I'm not sure if ervin has much time for KDE 3 though. ( he is busy with KDE 4) 
<seaLne> what about just adding media:/ to the icons on the left that you can add locations to but by default?
<Riddell> I wouldn't want to distract ervin from kde 4 :)
<Sime> Riddell: the notification dialog still opens stuff in media:/, and there are some issue with refreshing the file list, and...
<Sime> Riddell: udev needs to provide better mount point names.
<sebas> That's HAL :)
<Lure> Sime: this is dapper bug and should be fixed
<Sime> I only got that email from ervin tonight.
<Riddell> Sime: mount point names in KDE 3.4 are handled by HAL, and I believe they're intentially human readable
<Lure> Sime: it works in GNOME (somehow)... 
<mjg59> udev doesn't generate mountpoint names, surely?
<toma> Sime: do you have the time to fix those / are you willing to fix those issues?
<Riddell> Sime: presumably we'd need to patch the system menu on kicker as well as the popup
<sebas> I can imagine that it's not going into KDE3, it has to be widely tested first, and be without problems (proven!)
<sebas> So the way it *might* go into KDE3 would be first via Edgy so bugs are shaken out
<Sime> sebas: no, it won't come into kde 3. no time.
<Sime> sebas: perhaps for edgy.
<ompaul> I was under an assumption that there was a proposal floating in the gnome household that was saying hide all that material also .. might be worth investigating
<sebas> Yeah, probably not.
<toma> ompaul: i thought nautilus did that laready
<allee> Sime: media dialog has also the problem what it pop up in every session (:0, :1 etc) and does not close if device is unpluged
<sebas> I suggest having someone with inside knowledge of kdelibs review it, and have someone from OpenUsability review it.
<Sime> toma: I'm willing to put some time into it (some how).
<Riddell> allee: we need to get JRe to fix that :)
<Sime> The patches need to be tested first by us.
<ompaul> toma, my understanding is there is something else for more hiding
<Sime> this stuff is really alpha/beta quality now.
<allee> Riddell: JRe or ervin told me that it's not easy :(
<Sime> until they get tested first.
<imbrandon> Sime i dont mind guine pigging catch me in #kubuntu-devel anytime
<Riddell> imbrandon: patches are on his blog, go ahead and try them
<imbrandon> k
<toma> ok, so in current state it is not ready for edgy
<Sime> what I'm saying is that I don't know what else is borken and needs to be fixed.
<Sime> that is our first task.
<Riddell> it sounds like they are ready for edgy given edgy's current state
<Riddell> although some testing first would be a good idea
<toma> hmm
<Lure> Riddell: I would agree - we can drop them anytime
<imbrandon> exactly better to get them in soonish and work out bugs now
<imbrandon> then knot 7 or soem such
<toma> good, we can pull them out at any time of course
* gnomefreak will test anything you have ready
<allee> Will media:, system: go away in KDE4? 
<Riddell> allee: undecided
<Riddell> imbrandon: fancy making us some .debs with those patches so we can test?
<Sime> ervin is still working that stuff from what I understand.
<imbrandon> Riddell: sure thing
<bipolar> allee: I hope so....
<toma> imbrandon: great
<allee> if not we have the problem that we now start some sort of fork that needs maintaining ...
<allee> bipolar: me too
<Sime> a wiki page for this would be useful too. ;-)
<Riddell> allee: it shouldn't be hard to maintain them in KDE 3, and KDE 4 will be sufficiently different that they'll need re-written anyway
<Lure> Sime: can we make this behaviour optional and not dependant on other features (View Hidden files)?
<imbrandon> Sime: yea when i "debianize" it i'll wiki it
<toma> allee: let's first see how the results are while we test it
<Hobbsee> +1 Lure 
<Lure> then we could easily turn it of for people complaining
<gnomefreak> i thought i read somewhere today that kde4 wouldnt be that different
<toma> allee: if we need to patch every corner of kde, i might agree
<Sime> Lure: not easily.
<Sime> imbrandon: cool
<Hobbsee> personally, i think we need to take Lure's suggestion for all the konqi defaults we change.  there are people who like standard kde, but want the otherwise ease of use of kubuntu
<Sime> if these changes work out well in edgy, then there is a good chance that they will appear in some form in KDE4.
<Riddell> Hobbsee: all the konqui changes are easily revertable
<Hobbsee> Riddell: true, if you play with config files.  i was thinking more a menu option
* Hobbsee is still quite asleep here.
<Sime> kubuntu has a good track record for changes in kde.
<imbrandon> Sime: hehehe
<allee> I'm somehow not completely happy with the 'hidden file' feature.  somehow this diverts for unix.  But I would be happy to hide files via .hidden if dot-files and hidden files can be set independently
<Riddell> allee: kioslaves can now set arbitrary files as "hidden"
<Sime> allee: in which directory?
<bipolar> What media playing backend is edgy going to use? Is it going to go back to gstreamer?
<imbrandon> allee: yea but userfriendly isnt unix, also there could be a "godmode" that ignores it 
<Sime> allee: root uses .hidden, /home doesn't though
<Lure> allee: +1
<bipolar> gstreamer worked well for breezy. using xine or mplayer doesn't seem to be as stable or easy to use.
<allee> Sime: ah, I thought .hidden can be placed everywhere is is hounred
<Riddell> bipolar: stick to the agenda
<imbrandon> please
<Sime> allee: that is true.
<Lure> Sime: and for /home suggestion in blog comments about showing the one's user has access would be nice
<Sime> allee: there is extra code for /home.
<bipolar> Riddell: oh, I'm sorry. I thought all things edgy were the agenda.
<Sime> Lure: true, it is an interesting idea.
<allee> Sime:  I would 'show hidden files and 'show dot' files.  so expert and newbies can feel at home
<Hobbsee> bipolar: feel free to add it to the end of the agenda
<imbrandon> bipolar: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<bipolar> thanks imbrandon 
<Sime> allee: that would be a much bigger change though (-> time)
<Riddell> allee: that's too complex if you ask me, and I don't see the advant1age
<allee> Sime: oh,  so it 'breaks' with /home/<chr>/<user>  or homes NFS or AFS that does start /home/*?
<Hobbsee> allee: first reponse:  "what on earth are dot files?"
<toma> allee: if a user want to see /initrd, he can cope with some dot files ;-)
<allee> Hobbsee: files starting with a '.'
<Hobbsee> allee: arent they hidden files?
<Sime> allee: probably.
<allee> Hobbsee: Sime just redefined the term hidden ;)
<Hobbsee> allee: right...
<Hobbsee> which now means hiding arbitarily
* Hobbsee rereads the log.
<allee> Hobbsee: hidden is just a feature of shell and ls
<allee> Hobbsee: rest of unix does not know about hidden files
<Sime> allee: exactly
<allee> almost ;)
<Riddell> we should move on
<sebas> The "breaks "/home/<chr>/<users>" problem can be solved by dynamically deciding what /home is, from /etc userconf.
<Lure> allee: it should not break /home/<char>/<name>/ if access() check is used for hiding...
<Riddell> plan is for imbrandon to compile us some packages, and if they're sane we'll throw it into edgy and see what breaks
<Hobbsee> ok, cool
<sebas> That's where guidance decides where to put new homedirs.
<Sime> ok, once a wiki page is up, I'll add my list of known problems.
* Hobbsee watches all of edgy kde break. 
<Hobbsee> :P
<toma> summary: test imbrandon's package, if generally ok upload to edgy
* ryanakca gulps
<Riddell> next item: welcome ryanakca 
<Hobbsee> yay, a membership!
<imbrandon> welcome ryanakca ;)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: not membership yet
<nixternal> hehe
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: not yet
<ryanakca> membership?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: oh?  okay then.
<ryanakca> Hello all...
* Hobbsee assumed wrong.  bad hobbsee.
* toma is lost
<Riddell> ryanakca: what's your name and what are you interested in?
<imbrandon> hey is just joing us and saying "hi" as the wiki said ;)
<Hobbsee> toma: sorry for confusion
<ryanakca> I'm Ryan Kavanagh, and I'm interested in helping out kubuntu... I'm not really a programmer... but I am learning C...
<nixternal> he is one of my bosses as well ;)
<imbrandon> toma: the wiki stats to get involved in kubuntu development intro yourself to the developers before anything else, this is the stage he is at
<ryanakca> ummm... I've packaged a few things... and that's about it...
<toma> imbrandon: thanks
<ryanakca> I'm interested in helping out wherever possible :)
<nixternal> he is one of the New User Mentors who created the Classroom!!!
* Hobbsee waves to ryanakca 
<ryanakca> yes, that too
* ryanakca waves to Hobbsee
<Riddell> ryanakca: great to have you
<nixternal> he makes me do way to much work thats for sure
<gnomefreak> lol
<ryanakca> lol
<Riddell> back to the agenda, toma..
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: really now?  cool.  /me thought that was called lurking in #kubuntu-devel then randomly having Riddell ask you to fix something
* ryanakca gives nixternal a cookie... keep his mouth full
<toma> item 1 rosetta!
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: LOL
<toma> Starting from KDE 3.5.4, the Kubuntu version op KDE contains a link to help translating the application in the help menu.
<toma> The link points to Rosetta. The KDE-translators have expressed their concerns about this. 
<toma> The last week I've taken the time to list all the concerns ans some possible solutions. 
<toma> http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDERosettaCollaboration
<toma> I think it is important that we - as in kubuntu - pass on the concerns to the rosetta developers.
<toma> I would like to know how you think about this situation and would like advice about how to proceed with this document.
<toma> too much coffee when i wrote that
<imbrandon> toma, Hobbsee: second line on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu FYI
<Riddell> I do see and agree with most of the concerns of the KDE translators, but I also see the advantage of a rosetta system
<nixternal> hehe
<Riddell> I'm also pretty confident that the rosetta developers are working on fixing most of the problems KDE has with rosetta
<imbrandon> yea the main thing is making our case to the KDE team about the advantages of rosetta and maybe finding a way it can sync both ways 
<toma> Riddell: are they aware of them?
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: oh nice.
<Riddell> toma: I've spoken to them on IRC throughout the KDE thread (which they've also read)
<Riddell> toma: but I think I should ask them to respond directly to the points on the wiki page
<allee> Riddell: problem is that no rosetta devel search an dialog with the translators
<toma> Riddell: can you do that, that would be a great start.
<allee> yes
<bipolar> hmmm.... I hope I can make it home and back on before the agenda item I just added comes up. be back in 15min.
<Riddell> toma: and as I said on the list we'll have a kubuntu bof with sabdfl at Akademy where we can bring up these points
<toma> allright.
<Riddell> allee: you mean the rosetta developers should respond directory on the upstream translators lists?
<allee> yeap. 
<toma> oh, that would be great, make sure they wear bullutproof jackets
<allee> but the wiki page is fine too.
<Riddell> allee: I can ask them to do that too
<imbrandon> lol toma
<toma> okay, next item?
<allee> when there's resetta thread activity again in kde-i18n then it may help if the rosetta devel answer directly
<Riddell> allee: yep
<toma> yes
<Riddell> toma: please
<toma> A lot of KDE packages are packed on Debian within the KDE-extra's team.
<toma> Achim and me maintain packages for both distributions. If the Kubuntu version diverts from the debian one that causes a lot of duplicate work, which can be prevented.
<toma> Everyone is capable of requesting an account on the server where those packages are maintained. Achim and me will support the request and get you up-to-speed. 
<toma> Via a svn-repository you can prepare the package and then ask a sponsor to upload (regulary that happens in a matter of hours).
<toma> It saves ugly merges and needless requests of syncs.
<toma> links to the packages involved are on the agenda
<Hobbsee> we certainly need an updated list of what is in there, so we know not to touch it in ubuntu
<toma> http://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=pkg-kde-extras@lists.alioth.debian.org
<allee> Hobbsee: the svn URL gives you a the list
<Hobbsee> oh yeah, right, i see :P
<Riddell> toma: are you saying more software should be maintained in kde-extras or that we should make better use of the current packages in kde-extras?
<allee> Riddell: both does not hurt ;)
<toma> Riddell: the packages in debians kde-extra's shpould be maintained there, as long as possible
<Hobbsee> it has to be better maintaining them there than getting the programs off kdeapps.org and then finding that debian has packaged it later.
<allee> Riddell: and every kde pkg in kubuntu but not debian can be added there
<Riddell> allee: if someone want to do that, it would be cool :)
<Riddell> I'm all for more use of kde-extras, especially if the package is already there I guess we should have a policy of it being the first resort
<allee> Riddell: biggest problem up to know was 'not time to create an alioth account" ;)
<Riddell> allee: who controls permissions on the pkg-kde svn?
<allee> Riddell: the KDE core pkgs.  
<Riddell> soon to include fabo I note
<allee> permissions are set seperately for kde-extras.  
<Riddell> allee: but kde-extras is also under pkg-kde yes?
<allee> Riddell: yeah, fabo is amazing
<allee> yes
<allee> in the subdir kde-extras
<seaLne> can you give an example of workflow using this?
<Hobbsee> argh!  
<imbrandon> yea exactly , thats what i'm wondering
<imbrandon> the workflow
* Hobbsee glares at whoever made that mouse over turns tab into close button in konqi.
<Riddell> it's also worth noting that ubuntu shouldn't depend on debian packaging infrastructure, nobody should feel they have to use kde-extras
<toma> Hobbsee: my idea, tonio's execution
<Hobbsee> right, yep.  it probably makes sense though
<Lure> Hobbsee: talk with Tonio
<allee> seaLne: I build digikam* form svn on kubuntu.  When I'm happy I ask on pkg-kde-extras ml for an upload.  Usually 24h later it's in debian and a bit later in kubuntu
* Hobbsee will.  actually, i thought it was reverted.  anyway
<allee> seaLne: Now when ready for an upload I ask for upload.  Rebuild a *~ach0dapper1 pkg and upload to my repo (until backports gets active)
<imbrandon> allee: so in other words your saying we should just maintain the packages in debain and then sync them , isnt this the case 90% of the time already ?
<Riddell> allee: where your repo?
<allee> Riddell: http://www.mpe.mpg.de/~ach/kubuntu
<toma> imbrandon: yes, but we see you break it now and then and make small changes to the ubuntu packages
<toma> imbrandon: that means, we copy it in debian
<allee> toma: post you repo too.  Your have more recent pkgs ;)
<toma> imbrandon: and after that, we request a sync at kubuntu's side again
<Hobbsee> you both have repos?
<seaLne> how would that work for kubuntu specific stuff?
<Hobbsee> it's probably important to avoid more duplication than absolutely necessary
<toma> http://kubuntu.omat.nl
<allee> Hobbsee: we all wait for -backports :(
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: i do too, makes for good testing ;)
<Hobbsee> allee: true
<toma> (including kscope 1.4)
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: konversation packages.
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: you were *asking* for that, werent you.
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: building now , even for edgy ;)
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: sure sure, you said that last time :P
* nixternal wishes he was building them with "tree view"
<Hobbsee> sorry for the digression
<Hobbsee> nixternal: now that's *definetly* a digression
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: the ftb got fixed today
<nixternal> ;(
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: yay :)
<allee> seaLne: If there's really kubuntu specific stuff that can not merged.  we can use a branch/kubuntu
<toma> allright, so does anyone object?
<allee> seaLne: but for apps most if this stuff is of systematic nature and better fixed in kde.mk of cdbs
<Riddell> toma: no objections, but just as I say that nobody should feel they have to go through debian if they feel it adds more hassle
<imbrandon> Riddell: yea , i wanna "test" the workflow a bit, i got no objection to the theory but ..... well yea
<Lure> allee: can you put this on wiki?
<allee> seaLne: Main point is you one has a fix directly checkin in kde-extras svn repo saves sending patches merging later etc.
<Lure> (how to for the people that would like to use debian svn)
<allee> Lure: you have a existing page in mind or a new one?
<imbrandon> allee: whom do I^W we poke for svn commit access then ?
<Hobbsee> Lure: that'd be useful
<Lure> allee: probably new one...
<allee> imbrandon: ask on #qt-kde-debian on oftc
<allee> or send an sign mail (as used for you alioth account) to pkg-kde-talk@alioth.debian.net (<- hope that correct)
<imbrandon> hrm ok , hopefully its not pulling teeth like getting a DD is to upload a pkg
<toma> imbrandon: not at all
<Riddell> that's #debian-qt-kde  :)
<Lure> allee: problem is that it is hard to get though ubuntu policies and then having to go through debian might be seen as additional complexity - I understand the end result is better, but getting ther is critical - this is where wiki helps
<allee> imbrandon: no.  That it works so good is the reason I never felt motivated to apply for debian new maint process ;)
<toma> imbrandon: dus to svn, it is pretty clear wat you do, so no need for long delays
<toma> due
<toma> you can create an account at http://alioth.debian.org/
<allee> Lure: the pkg policies/requirements are the same.  I e.g. never test my pkgs on debian.  That's their task. I only promise works in kubuntu
<Hobbsee> allee: ahh..interesting
<Riddell> the policies are the same, it's mostly individual developers who have different standards, e.g. I'll approve stuff that isaac won't and the other way around
<Riddell> we should move on
<allee> Hobbsee: for 'normal' KDE apps this okay on kubuntu implies okay in debian
<Hobbsee> yep
<imbrandon> hrm ok, i'll for one look into it but i dont think it should be *required* yet, just my 0.2c
<Riddell> imbrandon: it's not, and never will be
<allee> imbrandon: agreed. *required* is bad.
<Riddell> imbrandon: but it could well be a good idea in a lot of cases
<imbrandon> yea
<imbrandon> save alot of merges
<Riddell> Hobbsee is next on the agenda
<Hobbsee> oh am i?
<Hobbsee> what do i get to be discussed about?
* toma relaxes now
<allee> imbrandon: if it works as good for others as it works for me. it will be used automaticly (let's them do some merges first ;)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: amarok 1.4.2
<Hobbsee> #
<Hobbsee> Anyone got any patches they want to add into amarok 1.4.2? I'm planning to package it when it comes out, along with a few bugfixes.
<Hobbsee> #
<Hobbsee> Who wants to write the upstream version freeze exception report for amarok 1.4.2?
<Hobbsee>     *
<Hobbsee>       well IMO the person that packages it /should/ do this heheh but if you dont fell like it I can, let me know -- imbrandon 2006-08-10 17:43:31
<DaSkreech> !paste
<Riddell> Hobbsee: when is it out again?
<imbrandon> *cough* i was inbetween there, but i'll go after Hobbsee ;)
<Hobbsee> amarok 1.4.2 is due out on sunday, iv'e already started doing fixes for it
<Riddell> imbrandon: appologies, missed that
<imbrandon> hehe np
<Hobbsee> if anyone else really wants to package it, feel free, just take my changes :P
<Hobbsee> DaSkreech: nyah.  devel meetings allow pastes
<DaSkreech> Sorry knee jerk :)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: please do package it, I have no paticular requests to be added
<toma> Hobbsee: do you get a pre-release version, so we release on the same time?
<imbrandon> all yours Hobbsee 
<Riddell> Hobbsee: if you fancy doing dapper builds too I'm sure plenty of people would like that
<Hobbsee> cool.  anyone else got requests?  if they do, can they file a bug on it under amarok, and assign it to me?
* Hobbsee gets all that bugmail anyway.
* sebas 'd love to see Dapper pkgs for Amarok. That whole thing is darn popular.
<allee> Hobbsee: hint amorak is also in alioth ;) In people/dato not kde-extras
<imbrandon> make sure it uses the new libvis 0.4 is all i request
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah, was planning to.  and whatever else needs building on that.  host on kde?
<Hobbsee> allee: ahhh...right...
<danimo> g'evening
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: yeah, i fixed that.
<allee> danimo: hi
<Riddell> Hobbsee: on kubuntu.org (amarok doesn't release on ftp.kde.org)
<Hobbsee> toma: nope, i have the beta1 working nicely here though
<DaSkreech> Anything dependencies that would prevent a dapper release?
<sebas> In fact, I think Amarok devs asked for a KDE account to put their stuff on.
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: you could probably talk to the amarok devs and get one though
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah.  of course.  i *meant* kubuntu.org.  i know that wasnt what i said :P
<danimo> hi allee
<Hobbsee> DaSkreech: libvisual stuff, xinelib, iirc
<Hobbsee> i'll get it running and into edgy first
<Riddell> apachelogger will say when builds are available
<gnomefreak> Hobbsee: you have a deb posted for it yet? (for beta)
<Hobbsee> yeah
<imbrandon> DaSkreech: xcalibur and libvis iirc
<bipolar> Amarok needs video support. I wish the amarok devs didn't have such an adversion to that.
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: er, yeah, i did...i386.  check in buntudot.org/packages/~hobbsee/
<DaSkreech> Whats Xcalibur for?
<sebas> bipolar: Offtopic.
<gnomefreak> Hobbsee: ty
<Hobbsee> DaSkreech: it got axed.
<DaSkreech> bipolar: Yse kaffine :)
<toma> Hobbsee: would be nice to get kubuntu in the announcement
<bipolar> Hobbsee: you havn't seen any patches for that, have you?
<toma> Hobbsee: should i talk to them?
<Hobbsee> bipolar: no, i just package it, and fix bugs
<Hobbsee> toma: please do :)
* Hobbsee isnt connected with most upstream people.
<bipolar> Hobbsee: ok. maybe I could do something... maybe...
<toma> Hobbsee:how soon can you have thos packages after their release?
<Hobbsee> DaSkreech: they axed excalliber upstream
<DaSkreech> Ok
<Hobbsee> toma: depends if i'm home on sunday. you talking about in edgy, or at all?
* allee thinks we need a wiki page where each devel lists her/his private repos
<imbrandon> allee: +1
<Riddell> toma: depends if apachelogger gives us pre-notice of the build
<Hobbsee> toma: in edgy, it'll have to go thru a upstream version exception report process
<sebas> If they should add it to their announcement, you need packages for Dapper as well, I guess few people follow Edgy.
<Riddell> Hobbsee: there's also a developers channel for amarok that can be useful around release time
<imbrandon> allee: infact i'll make that right after this meeting
<Hobbsee> allee: mine's not a repo.  it's just a random place i chuck stuff, and may or may not be able to date.
* allee hugs imbrandon 
<toma> dapper rebuild is not really a problem
<toma> unless deps..
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: as are most of ours , still
* Hobbsee didnt do the 1.4.1 packages.
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: right
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: did you want to go?
<allee> Hobbsee: so it's even more interesting that just a repo (for developers)
<Hobbsee> then i'll keep going with my stuff?
<Riddell> yes, imbrandon's item
<toma> ok, i'll talk with them about a pre-notice, maybe to short term for this release
<imbrandon> disscuss [WWW]  Wishlist Bug 49774 I think it makes a very valid point that is attainable by edgy release , if so deemed after the meeting I can create a spec -- imbrandon\
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 49774 in kubuntu-meta "(WISH) Reduce the number of dependences in kubuntu-desktop" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/49774
<Riddell> imbrandon: answer is talk to mvo about recommends support
<imbrandon> i dont think that the exact implmentation he said
<imbrandon> will work BUT
<imbrandon> i was thinking kubuntu-base and kubuntu-{desktop,laptop}
<Riddell> imbrandon: installing recommends by default will soon be turns on in apt, and then the kubuntu-desktop and other meta packages will move to Recommends so you can remove software
<imbrandon> would work
<Hobbsee> oh that...
* Hobbsee has been watching that.
<imbrandon> Riddell: ouch that leaves alot of cleaning up in recomends for stuff in universe
<Riddell> imbrandon: splitting up the meta package is never going to work, you'll always have people who want to uninstall something
<imbrandon> *ALOT*
<Riddell> imbrandon: it'll be interesting yes
<seaLne> i'm not convinced your avaerage user would ever remove software
<Hobbsee> in one sense, that's the purpose of a metapackage.  to install all needed stuff - and it can be removed
<Hobbsee> but it does make it painful for upgrading
<toma> seaLne: indeed, i still have cups at home ;-)
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: yea but everywhere you look someone says DONT REMOVE IT or it will break
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: true..
<seaLne> it dose break some stuff like newly added stuff you wouldn't get
<Hobbsee> ther'es a lot of....ah...shall we say...interesting help that seems to go on in #kubuntu.  or #ubuntu for that matter
<Hobbsee> yeah
<imbrandon> yea
<imbrandon> Riddell: so whens the move to recomends ?
<ryanakca> seaLne: most don't... well... from what I've seen from windows users (who refuse to even try the live cd) in my family...
<Riddell> imbrandon: soon, mvo will make an announcement
<imbrandon> and coudl we look at a kubuntu-base and kubunut-{desktop,laptop} as a fallback if recomnds fails horribly heh
<Riddell> imbrandon: splitting wouldn't help matters
<Riddell> and there's not much wrong with uninstalling kubuntu-desktop anyway, you can always reinstall it again on the upgrade
<imbrandon> hrm it would help not having lappy tools on my desktop like bluetooth stuff
<toma> imbrandon: kubuntu-base equals kdebase ?
<imbrandon> true, i'm not thinking about me specificly though mostly users
<nixternal> +1
<Riddell> I've never noticed bluetooth tools getting in my way
<Hobbsee> ah yes, why *do* we ship bluetooth stuff with k-d
<Hobbsee> ?
<imbrandon> toma: yea
<sebas> George did, I think.
<DaSkreech> What's the purpose of kubuntu-live?
* Hobbsee was going to whine about that earlier
<ryanakca> I've uninstalled kubuntu-desktop in the past... forget why... 
<Riddell> Hobbsee: for people who need bluetooth support (especially important if you have a bluetooth keyboard)
<ryanakca> DaSkreech: this is just a guess... but for the live cd?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: ahh...so you need it for install.
<Riddell> DaSkreech: it's the extra packages on the live CD (mostly language packs)
<allee> Hobbsee: why not? ;)
<DaSkreech> Why would someone ever want to install that?
<imbrandon> ryanakca: i do too after each install most of the time, but i can deal with breakage, i'm thinking most users
* Hobbsee wonders why there isnt a bluetooth detection package, like the laptop detect one.
<Riddell> Hobbsee: bluez does detect if it's needed or not
<DaSkreech> Or a wacom detection one >_>
<Hobbsee> allee: because it adds yet more stuff tothe repos that i never use, which i cant get rid of.
<toma> printer-detection
<toma> modem detection for kppp
<Hobbsee> hmmm.  
<allee> Hobbsee: ah
* allee has bt on laptop and desktop
<Riddell> linux also comes with 500 drivers you'll never use
<Hobbsee> true
<DaSkreech> :-)
<imbrandon> drivers dont show up on the kmenu though
<Hobbsee> it's more the menu options that i never use that annoy me
<imbrandon> heh
<Hobbsee> as i cant remove the buggers.
<Riddell> Hobbsee: well you will when Recommends comes along!
<ryanakca> yeah... thank god we at least have wacom built in... in debian (don't know if you still have to), you have to compile your own kernel to use graphic tablets
<imbrandon> heheh ok i think that settles that then, we wait and see how recomeds works out
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yay
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-08-11
<DaSkreech> ryanakca: Well at least a script that comments out wacom stuff if not detetected
<imbrandon> man thats gonna require an audit of nearly every univserse package though
<ryanakca> yeah
<imbrandon> heh
<Riddell> Hobbsee: amarok upstream version freeze request is just an e-mail to mdz and kamion with changelog and confirmation that it's been tested and works well
<Riddell> Hobbsee: CC me so I can confirm too
<allee> Hobbsee, imbrandon IMHO kdebluetooth should not start when not available and menues can be rearranged ;)  Maybe file bugs so it get's not forgotten?
<imbrandon> allee: yea it dosent start just gets in my way on the kmenu
<imbrandon> i will 
<Hobbsee> Riddell: cool, thanks
<Hobbsee> allee: yeah.  point.
* Hobbsee filed enough bugs last night :P
<toma> universe upload team?
<Riddell> tell us more Hobbsee 
<imbrandon> ok i'm done , i see it as wait and see how recomends works out
<Hobbsee> Riddell: about?  what bugs i filed?  one heck of a lot of syncs.  i went from the unvierse "p
<Hobbsee> 's" to partway thru the "s'"
<Riddell> Hobbsee: about universe upload team
<imbrandon> [17:11]  <toma> universe upload team?  < about that
<toma> ;-)
* toma gives Hobbsee coffee
<Hobbsee> oh right
<Hobbsee> it's part of my plan to take over the world.
<Hobbsee> There now exists a universe uploads team: [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-universe-sponsors You can use this if there's no one around to upload, or you prefer to do it via LP, etc. Please attach a debdiff between current debian, and your version (for merges, at least). Syncs too.
<Hobbsee> toma: i dont drink the stuff :P
<danimo> Hobbsee: naughty girl.. ;)
<seaLne> that'll be the problem
<imbrandon> looks kinda like a "mentors" type project from debian , witch i think ubuntu needs
<toma> i know, but how to ping those people properly?
<DaSkreech> 1) Take over the World
<DaSkreech> 2)......
<DaSkreech> 3) Profit!!
<Hobbsee> rationalle:  it's quite hard to get stuff uploaded to universe, if you dotn konw the people
<seaLne> debian-mentors is a good way to get ignored
<Hobbsee> toma: how to ping which people?
<Hobbsee> toma: irc, usually
<Riddell> pitti announced it here https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-August/019922.html
<danimo> Hobbsee: yes, that's true. however it's significantly more easy than with debian
<Hobbsee> Riddell: ahh.  missed that, something screwed up my ubuntu-devel mailing list subscription
<imbrandon> seaLne: ??
<Riddell> my worry is that if I subscribe to that I'll be flodded with upload requests for stuff I don't care or know about
<seaLne> imbrandon: just bitching
<Hobbsee> Riddell: that's why you're not on the team?
<ryanakca> bbiab, supper
<Hobbsee> Riddell: :P
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I'm not on the team because I only just read pitti's e-mail :)
<ryanakca> Riddell: you allready get flooded with wiki updates, don't you?
<imbrandon> heh you can always un-join ;)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: it's not kubuntu specific, i havent seen you listed on there.  oh, and if you try to, i'll just kick you off, because i can!  :D
<Riddell> ryanakca: naw, I filter out all but *kubuntu*
<ryanakca> nice :)
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: it's *far* more fun to kick the leading kubuntu dev off though
<imbrandon> lol
* Riddell wonders who's on the main team
<Riddell> a fair number https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-main-sponsors
<imbrandon> brb mt dew refill ( btw takin collections for a fast food resturant soda fountain for my computer lab here at home , lol just kidding )
<Riddell> but I should probably subscribe incase kde stuff comes onto it
<imbrandon> yea good idea /me looks at allee and toma too
<Hobbsee> Riddell: sounds sane.  or someone could just poke you for kde based stuff
<Riddell> poking usually works best with me
* Hobbsee pokes Riddell with her long pointy stick. you did ask for it :P
<toma> imbrandon: well, i like the idea, but talking to Hobbsee and Riddell works ok too. I was wondering what they prefer
<Hobbsee> toma: pokes are good
<Hobbsee> next?
<Hobbsee> #
<Hobbsee> Point people towards: Do the merges *before* the rebuilds - we can upload rebuilds after universe freeze a lot easier than new versions
<Hobbsee>     *
<Hobbsee>       [WWW]  http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html [WWW]  http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe-manual.html [WWW]  https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuEdgyPackageUpdates - gamin rebuilds. [WWW]  https://launchpad.net/people/kubuntu-team/+packagebugs
<allee> imbrandon: mhmm?
<Hobbsee> toma: you've got imbrandon too
<Riddell> how are merges looking?
<Hobbsee> ouch, that pasted badly
<Hobbsee> Riddell: a lot better when we get the next round of syncs done.
<Riddell> 0 outstanding merges   ooh, nice
<toma> Hobbsee: true.
<Hobbsee> Riddell: it's always said that :P
<Hobbsee> we're below 200, which is good.
<Hobbsee> Lure's to deal with kpowersave stuff.
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: not always there was a few on there a few days ago
<gnomefreak> wish i knew how
<Hobbsee> although it looks like we wont need to again
<Lure> Hobbsee: confirmed!
<Hobbsee> seeing as the g-p-m looks good
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: crimsun ran a session on it in motu school.
<gnomefreak> i missed it
<Hobbsee> gnomefreak: there should be logs
<imbrandon> there is a log ( OT )
<Hobbsee> Riddell: were you going to request testing for g-p-m?
<Hobbsee> uh oh, glad i looked down
<Riddell> Hobbsee: yes, although I already have a bunch of fixes that need doing
<Riddell> where is motu school announced?  I always seem to miss it
<Hobbsee> *hits the power button* laptops like juice
<toma> me too
<Hobbsee> Riddell: either motu mailing list, or ubuntu-devel?
<imbrandon> fridge -devel -announce and the fridge cal
<Hobbsee> ah, is that it.
<toma> oki
<Hobbsee> Riddell: i'll whine at people to cross post that
<Hobbsee> seeing as i have trouble posting to the lists.
* Hobbsee glares at her isp.
<imbrandon> it will always be in the fridge cal 
<Riddell> next item?
<toma> so when i'm bored, i just pick on of the merges list and do it?
* allee wishes (k)ubuntu meetings/school etc would be available via ldap to get them into kontact
<Hobbsee> oops, sorry
<Hobbsee> toma: yep!
<Riddell> allee: fridge calendar should have ical
<seaLne> allee: add remote ical?
<Riddell> toma: please!
<Hobbsee> toma: there are a few things not to touch, but otherwise, yep!
<toma> well the page states that the owner should do it first
<Hobbsee> toma: dholbach's got a whole stack of merges that he needs done too.  
<toma> how do i know what to touch and what not
<Hobbsee> toma: owner should have done it a while ago if they particularly cared about it
<Hobbsee> toma: dont touch zope and beagle.
<Hobbsee> next item:  Are there any performance patches in other distros for KDE that we should be including? Make KDE faster at all?
<Riddell> toma: at this stage it's the last uploader's problem if they havn't touched it
<Hobbsee> toma: i think that's all
<Riddell> Hobbsee: none that I know of
<Hobbsee> right
<allee> Riddell: oh, better than nothing ;)
<Riddell> although it's always worth keeping an eye on http://ktown.kde.org/~binner/distributor-patches/
* Hobbsee heard talk of suse and something or other else having a faster kde.
<toma> Hobbsee: there is a url ..
<toma> nm
<imbrandon> allee: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/ical
<Riddell> Hobbsee: the patches from suse have been put into mainline KDE
<Hobbsee> Riddell: cool :)
<Hobbsee> right, cool
<allee> imbrandon: thx
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: someone will always say something else is faster ;)
<Hobbsee> also, are we supposed to be testing anything specific in edgy at the moment?
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: heh, true
<Riddell> testing: kubuntu-laptop-buttons, and the new power management applet
* imbrandon heard someone ranting about kde with a build flag of -0s was faster than -02 , just have to ignore it sometimes
<Hobbsee> Riddell: gotchat.  k-l-b in repos?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: yes, it's kmilo, and it should "just work"
<Hobbsee> cool
<Riddell> also testing of this is welcome www.micoulou.info/kformat
* Hobbsee hands the "i have a bit on the agenda that i'll talk about now" bar to nixternal 
<Riddell> it's a summer of code project
<nixternal> ummm
<Riddell> and if someone wants to package it for the guy he'd welcome that
<Hobbsee> nice...
<Riddell> note that it hasn't worked for me
<Hobbsee> right
<Riddell> also that with an incorrect click it may well format your hard drive
<imbrandon> is that that floppy thing ?
<toma> imbrandon: there was a thread on kde-core-devel a while back about build flags. did not follow it
<Hobbsee> Riddell: hah.  just imagine me yelling at you if it did that :P
<Riddell> imbrandon: floppy and usb key formatter
<seaLne> Hobbsee: you wouldn't be able to :)
<imbrandon> toma yea i might read the archives the next days and see if there is anything we can use
<imbrandon> Riddell: ahh i have neither so i wouldent be able to test
<toma> imbrandon: maybe poke on #kde-devel
<Hobbsee> seaLne: live cd.
<seaLne> bah
<Riddell> Hobbsee: any other plans to take over the world?
<nixternal> hehe
<imbrandon> ;)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: not today, i have a system to clean up.
<Hobbsee> Riddell: do we have any closer location/plans/etc for edgy+1 dev summit?
* Hobbsee would like to get to that.
* Hobbsee would like to meet some of you :)
<imbrandon> kansas city if it was upto me ;)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: yes, although I don't think I'm allowed to say yet (it's not been finally decided)
<imbrandon> but its not ;(
<Hobbsee> Riddell: cool, okay
<Riddell> but /msg me if you want to find out
<Hobbsee> Riddell: do tell, when you're allowed to :P
* Hobbsee /msg's
<Riddell> nixternal had an item
<nixternal> yup
<nixternal> Edgy Eft Knot Releases....
<Hobbsee> indeed.  nixternal shoot
<nixternal> here we go
<nixternal> * Good job Riddell on posting the 6.06.1 LTS Released on Kubuntu.org as we are the only group out of all the *ubuntu's that let people know it is out, besides the Announcement ML.
<nixternal> i just realised this!
<Riddell> maybe I should post to kubuntu-devel and kubuntu-users too
<nixternal> so...
<toma> yes please
<nixternal> * OK, now where are the list of changes from 6.06 to 6.06.1?  If I am Joe Shmoe, the typical user, why should I download this and install it?  Why is it better then 6.06?
<imbrandon> yea , maybe even dot.kde ?
<seaLne> torrents downloads have been less than for 6.06 up till now
<Hobbsee> oh man, i'm trying to recursively backup.  that wont work.
<nixternal> i can create a "Release" with that information if needed
<Riddell> nixternal: on the whole you shouldn't download it
<Riddell> only download if you can't get to dapper-updates for some reason
<Riddell> the list of changes is in kamion's announcement
<nixternal> true...you and i know that, but joe shmoe doesn't
<Riddell> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-August/000088.html
<nixternal> the typical user just sees it as something else to download because there isn't any more info about it, other than locations to download it
<seaLne> so effectivly all that should be happening is that people trying to download dapper you get .1?
<Riddell> seaLne: yes
<Riddell> so the 6.06 on the mirrors is now a link to 6.06.1
<seaLne> so it shouldn't really be big news
<Riddell> it's not
<seaLne> ah
<nixternal> i think there needs to be a write up for the public to view that tells them about the release, why it was released, and what was fixed and what not
* toma is confused about this. I thought backports were not possible yet?
<Riddell> toma: there's no backports in this
<seaLne> backports is different from updates/security
<imbrandon> toma its not backports its a security rollup and new cd images
<nixternal> if that isn't what we want to do, then maybe we should pull the release announcement from the site?  
<Riddell> only dapper-updates, which is very small bugfixes
<Riddell> and -security yes
<toma> okay
<nixternal> ok..besides that...i wanted to get edgy here
<nixternal> this will be brief and painful
<nixternal> i mean painless
<toma> but someone at the office told me he got a new gnome from updates, that does not sound minor
<nixternal> * Time to get Edgy!
<nixternal> First things first. The codename of Dapper+1 will be:   The Edgy Eft
<nixternal> And here's why. Edgy is all about cutting edge, perhaps bleeding edge,
<nixternal> brand new code and infrastructure. It will be the right time to bring in
<nixternal> some seriously interesting but definitely edgy new technologies which
<nixternal> lay the groundwork for the next wave of Ubuntu development.
<nixternal> that is what sabdfl said in his announcement concerning edgy eft
<nixternal> we all know that, and more and more people are reading it, and wondering what the KDE guys are doing to make this stand true
<nixternal> like you, i get tired of the AIX/GLX/Compiz stuff at times...but they want to know
<nixternal> so on i go
<nixternal> * OK, some common gripes and questions towards the release notes for Edgy Knot2, and probably the same for future releases:
<nixternal> 1.)  What is bleeding edge about KDE 3.5.4?   KDE 4 is bleeding edge for us, and there is nothing we can do until Edgy+1. People are starting to understand that.
<imbrandon> ...
<nixternal> ...
<nixternal> you are good imbrandon ;)
<toma> well, 1 is true ;-)
<toma> next?
<nixternal> 2.) OK, KDE 3.5.4 is signifagant for Edgy Knot 2 w/o a doubt, but what else is "edgy" in the release?
<nixternal>     * This is the one that keeps getting asked towards the Kubuntu release for Knot 2.
<nixternal>     * Ubuntu & Gnome have some new cool toys that I have observed (thats about all I know of them though)
<nixternal> 3.) I think you see where I am going with those, anyways, we need to start selling these releases, and the coolness factor will definitely help.
<Hobbsee> nixternal: g-p-m and k-l-b stuff.
<Hobbsee> nixternal: and updated packages
<Hobbsee> like kopete, amarok, etc
<Riddell> nixternal: have you ready sabdfl's blog on this?
<Riddell> s/y//
<nixternal> yes Riddell, and I have been pulling inspiration from it as well
<unix_infidel> .
<sebas> KDE is frozen, that's true, but we have cool new stuff in amarok, for example.
<imbrandon> ... /me looks confused like he steped into a marketing meeting ;)
<Riddell> I've always said that edgy won't be a major change for kubuntu, since kde 4 isn't happening yet at the distro level
<sebas> Digikam is also rocking, in general: we could concentrate more on apps than on infrastructure.
<nixternal> I hope you guys understand, KDE is me, I want Kubuntu to be the baddest release and have the most rockin' following, and kick arse release stuff..we need to sell it in a way..get people excited
<sebas> Not that GNOME has too much staggering stuff to offer
<nixternal> sebas: +1 if it is rockin' and jammin ;)
<Riddell> nixternal: what have you observed in gnome?
<toma> nixternal: digikam 0.9 is experimental, we can add that ;-)
<sebas> If KDE is finished by then :)
<Lure> btw, should we move digikam to main and in kubuntu-desktop?
<sebas> KDE4 that is.
<nixternal> the telepathy stuff off hand
<nixternal> im trying to remember the others, as I don't play iwth gnome ;)
<nixternal> only kde and kde edu
<Lure> toma: +1
<nixternal> cool toma, it will get added
<seaLne> digikam would be good in main
<Riddell> I don't want to put digikam in main until it automatically detects my camera
<toma> Riddell: which one?
<nixternal> everyone one of you have provided to the release notes, and it kicks arse in my view, but we need some killer stuff to spark excitement..that is about it ;)
<sebas> Riddell: What camera is it?
<Lure> Riddell: buy new camera ;-)
<nixternal> hehe
<sebas> And it's a gphoto problem, most probably.
<seaLne> from the kubuntu supported list :)
<nixternal> it detects my c700 ultra zoom ;)
<seaLne> my 350d is occasionally detected
<Riddell> it's a Kodak thingy, works great with gphoto2, but digikam needed me to add it manually, I want digikam to pop up and say "let me download from this camera you just plugged in"
<toma> Riddell: try digikam 0.9 or the latest from the 0.8 series, it should work
* Lure uses card reader for photo download
<Riddell> toma: got packages of 0.9?
<DaSkreech> nixternal: Is telepathy KDE based? I doubt it
<nixternal> you guys have anything you think/want added to the releases that are, in Riddell's words, "Rocking" or "Groovy", message me the information, poke me, add a == Header == on the wiki and i will get on it
<toma> Riddell: debian experimental, or for dapper from my repository
<nixternal> no DaSkreech, i believe it is ubuntu only
<Riddell> toma: I'll give it a shot
<Riddell> DaSkreech: decebel is the equivalent thing in kde 4
<nixternal> i can put my kflickr package on there ;)
<DaSkreech> Riddell: URL?
<imbrandon> hahah Riddell yea i have the same camera i bet, i have to do the same thing and its a kodac something
<Riddell> DaSkreech: http://decibel.kde.org/
<Riddell> I think it's equivalent anyway
<toma> some of the problems in digikam are caused by the media:/ and by gphoto
<DaSkreech> Well are there any good packages that will miss the Kubuntu ship date?
<toma> dont blame that on digikam ;-)
<nixternal> hehe
<Hobbsee> DaSkreech: arent there always?
<toma> sime's patches will help here as well
<DaSkreech> Perhaps we could ship stable(ized) SVN Builds of them
<seaLne> just means more time to get them ready for +1
<Riddell> DaSkreech: none that I know of assuming we get 3.5.5 in
<Hobbsee> Riddell: there are plans for a 3.5.5?
<Riddell> I don't know the release date for kdevelop 3.4
<Riddell> Hobbsee: there are, sometime next month
<Hobbsee> nice
<gnomefreak> Riddell: make it to edgy?
<Riddell> gnomefreak: I hope so
<gnomefreak> :)
<DaSkreech> Offtopic but is Xen getting in?
<imbrandon> DaSkreech: xen is in 
<imbrandon> already
<Hobbsee> DaSkreech: yes
<DaSkreech> Default?
<imbrandon> no
<toma> xen rocks
<DaSkreech> damn
<Riddell> zul is working on xen as I remember
<Riddell> DaSkreech: it's not default, it even has a separate linux source package
<imbrandon> zul just uploaded updates to it yesterday
<Riddell> anyway, next item
<Riddell> seaLne...
* Hobbsee may get disconnected here
<seaLne> k3b and cdrecording is currently broken in edgy
<DaSkreech> Bye Hobbsee
<seaLne> i think bug #54828 is the problem
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 54828 in cdrtools "cdrecord fails to burn cd's" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/54828
<imbrandon> yea it has to do the the recorder perm;s in /dev
<imbrandon> it works if you kdesu it
<seaLne> no it dosen't
<seaLne> it seems to be kernel permissions not file permissions
<sebas> Aye, again kernel and cdrecord devs fighting each other, it seems?
<Lure> seaLne: I have seen a story on LWN that Linus have put some SCSI command filtering in...
<seaLne> cdrom members can erase cds quite happily from cdrecord can't burn
<Hobbsee> that was relatively painless.
<sebas> What kernel will edgy ship with?
<sebas> .18?
<Hobbsee> sebas: no
<Hobbsee> .17
<seaLne> sebas: possibly google seems to suggest that it requires special permissions which presumably were available previously
<Lure> seaLne: might be this: http://lwn.net/Articles/193516
<allee> Lure: yes
* sebas reads.
<Riddell> I wonder if gnome is affected, I assume it must be
<sebas> But I guess that's Ben's business.
<seaLne> yep scsi_ioctl was what i had narrowed it down to
<seaLne> anything using cdrecord is broken
<seaLne> and possibly any other way of writing cds
<toma> i assume that will be fixed before release
<Lure> seaLne: but probably just for specific writers...
<seaLne> i have tried on different writers and so have the various bug reporters
<Hobbsee> uh oh, breakage
<Riddell> I'm sure I didn't have a problem burning CDs with knot 1
<Lure> btw, is k3b 1.0 planned to be released before edgy release? 
* Hobbsee had to run as root to make it work
<seaLne> no plans afaik
<imbrandon> yea i had to kdesu it to make it work
<imbrandon> but it worked
<seaLne> i have done some packaging of 1.0pre1
<seaLne> had to remove a few patches as they are now fixed
<Lure> seaLne: you have repo of pre1?
* Hobbsee is afk
<seaLne> http://geeksoc.org/~kd/k3b/ i'm having some problems with compiling on my machine but Hobbsee says she managed it
<nixternal_> yay
<seaLne> so if anyone could build that for i386 i'd like a copy :)
<seaLne> if not let me know if it dosen't build
<imbrandon> if Hobbsee built it its likely in my /var/cache/pbuilder/result as she builds on my machines alot
<Hobbsee> i've got copies of it on voyager, imbrandon 
<Hobbsee> yeah
* Hobbsee has been giving it a good workout lately :P
<Hobbsee> beats the uni connection for getting build deps
<seaLne> i'm not suggesting 1.0pre1 should go into edgy tho as there is not plan as yet for release of 1.0
<imbrandon> seaLne: i'll upload it a bit later and shott you a link if its in my ..../result dir
<toma> why not?
<imbrandon> s/shott/shoot
<seaLne> "This preview is not intended for daily use but for testing and bug hunting"
<Riddell> I'll upgrade to edgy tomorrow on my CD burning machine and give it a shot, if it breaks I'll be poking benc lots until it's fixed
<imbrandon> hehhe
* DaSkreech hands Riddell a long pointy stick
<seaLne> right, that was sort of what i was wanting to sort out at the meeting, what would happen now
<toma> seaLne: i expect a bit more from a preview release
<seaLne> toma: well as i haven't actually managed to run it yet i'm not in a situation to even guess yet and not being able to write cds anyway dosen't help
<Riddell> seaLne: I can make noises about it at the next distro meeting
<seaLne> thanks
<Riddell>  Day changed to 11 Aug 2006
<Riddell> good time to close the meeting :)
<Riddell> any other business
<toma> 1am here
<Riddell> bipolar?
<toma> media backend?
<Riddell> xine
<Riddell> since there's no signs of kaffeine and/or amaork getting gstreamer usable
<toma> anything else?
<DaSkreech> Edgy will be purple?
<sebas> Hasn't gstreamer been removed from upstream amarok?
<Riddell> sebas: yes
<imbrandon> DaSkreech: yes
<Riddell> which doesn't stop red hat from using it :)
<sebas> Anyway, no way gstreamer will be usable for most stuff before edgy becomes an eft.
<DaSkreech> As long as it gets in before the feature freeze?
<Riddell> DaSkreech: purple seems to be the way we're going
<Riddell> I like purple
<DaSkreech> Yeah I like the uber sexy logout buttons
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: no k3b in edgy result, did you build it for dapper ?
<sebas> Yeah, but now amarok people hate redhat, we don't want that since amarok people are mostly really nice folks.
<Riddell> DaSkreech: that's just a mockup
<DaSkreech> I know 
<DaSkreech> Doesn't stop it being uber sexy :)
<Riddell> any volunteers to clean up the Meetings wiki page?
* sebas volunteers to join Kim in bed.
<sebas> Riddell: I might clean up the PM stuff and separate GUI from functionality code, I assume that's OK with you?
<Riddell> next meeting will be after distro sprint (anyone near Weisbaden?)
<Riddell> sebas: sure, see also el's comments on the spec wiki page
<sebas> Wiesbaden is 3 hours from here, when's the sprint?
<Hobbsee> hold the meeting, it cqant yet end!
<sebas> Yup, read them.
<Hobbsee> er, end yet
<Riddell> sebas: week after next
* toma pokes allee
<allee> toma: mhmm?
<toma> allee: wiesbaden!
<sebas> Week after next what? :D
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: no, only in edgy
<Riddell> sebas: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/UbuntuDeveloperSprintWiesbaden
<Hobbsee> Riddell: dont stop the meeting yet!!!
<sebas> I'm pretty  busy travelling in sept already.
<allee> toma: yeah, I know.  Unfortunately I don't know if I'll have free time :(
* Hobbsee has two more bits.  
<Hobbsee> Riddell: /query?
<Riddell> Monday 21st 
<allee> toma: you plan to go?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I did ask if you had any other plans to take over the world :)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah, i know, but i'v ejust remembered a couple while i was afk
<Riddell> Hobbsee: let's hear them
<imbrandon> ...
<Hobbsee>  a)  Riddell: were you going to announce my title, seeing as it hasnt been announced anywhere else?
<toma> allee: did not think about it 
<Riddell> Hobbsee: I was going to propse it
<Riddell> is there a b)?
<Hobbsee> b)  can i get everyone to give me a list of packages that they particularly want to maintain in edgy+1?  ie, you dotn *have* to, but it'll be known that you're the person who usually does the fixes
<Hobbsee> sure, just typing nwo
<Hobbsee> :P
<Hobbsee> like me and kopete/amarok
<DaSkreech> :-)
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: that would be good for a wiki probably
<seaLne> Hobbsee: i'd like to keep working on k3b
<Hobbsee> seeing as that cuts down on crazy duplication
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: yeah, definetly
<Hobbsee> seaLne: yep
<Riddell> I'd like all of KDE please
<toma> Hobbsee: can you send a mail to -devel ?
<DaSkreech> Hmm there was BEats of Rage But looking at it it doesn't really need a maintainer
<imbrandon> heheh
<Hobbsee> Riddell: haha.  sure :)
<toma> or to me personally ?
<Hobbsee> toma: yeah, you may need to poke me
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: make a /KubuntuMaintainers and poke it on the next agenda for everyone to fill in
<Hobbsee> yay, more breakage :)
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: cool, okay
<Hobbsee> Riddell: that was all, so far.
<Hobbsee> Riddell: do your proposal :P
<Hobbsee> better still, let me restart x, then do your proposal
<Riddell> so the title thing was that back when MOTU started we were going to have team leaders
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: get some milk lol
<seaLne> and use irssi+screen :)
<Riddell> irssi+screen rocks
<allee> Hobbsee: people specially interested in a given pkg should subscribe to it in lauchpad
<imbrandon> hehe yea
<toma> so we all need to wait for hobbsee's restart?
<Riddell> we should hold one of those classes for irssi+screen
<Riddell> toma: seems so
* toma is sleepy and has to work soon
<sebas> Hehe, right, Riddell.
<Hobbsee> oh crap.
<Hobbsee> sorry, what'd i miss?
<Riddell> 00:10 < Riddell> so the title thing was that back when MOTU started we were going to have team leaders
<allee> [01:11]  <allee> Hobbsee: people specially interested in a given pkg should subscribe to it in lauchpad
<Hobbsee> allee: true, i was more meaning in terms of asking for upgrades
<Hobbsee> oh dear...major breakage :(
<imbrandon> allee: +1 but a wiki for the kubuntu ppl that want to be resp would be nice too
<seaLne> allee: then we'd get 2 mails about it
<Riddell> and since Hobbsee recons she can do a good job of organising people we thought we could make her kubuntu community manager and see what she does with it
<Hobbsee> :)
<bipolar> Riddell: I'll look into amarok-gstreamer for 0.10
<toma> what does that mean?
<allee> seaLne: I filter them seperately
<seaLne> so do i
<imbrandon> bipolar: gstreamer was droped in amarok 
<sebas> bipolar: You'll piss off amarok upstream then.
<Hobbsee> and debian
<sebas> They don't want the bugreports of an engine that's removed on purpose.
<Hobbsee> Riddell: i'll take over the world with it, of course
<toma> Hobbsee: congrats!
<Hobbsee> toma: :)
<toma> Hobbsee: i'm sure you'll do a nice job, poking as usual ;-)
<imbrandon> congrats Hobbsee ( although i dunno what will change much heheh )
<Hobbsee> toma: hehe!  of course!
<Hobbsee> imbrandon: it's an official title, which is nice :)
<toma> ah, so it is official poking now
<Hobbsee> means i can officially boss you all around :P
<toma> wonder how that feels ;-)
<Hobbsee> heh
<seaLne> Hobbsee: we even had to change the threat level in the UK to stop you sneaking in inside someone book or bottle of juice
<allee> Hobbsee: oh, official?  then I congrat you officially :)
<Hobbsee> seaLne: hahaha
<seaLne> your plans are foiled :)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: how official is it?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: since the meeting seems to generally be happy with it, totally
* DaSkreech hands Hobbsee a stick sharpener
* allee +1
<imbrandon> well you all are the KCC you decide how "offical" it is hehe
* sebas congrats Hobbsee.
<toma> Hobbsee: are there any targets, like 600 pokes a year?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: i meant with sabdfl, and all that.
<Hobbsee> and the CC
<Hobbsee> hehe
<Riddell> Hobbsee: CC meeting has been scheduled, we'll take it to them then
<Hobbsee> Riddell: nice :)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: when is it?
<sebas> What is CC?
<imbrandon> community council
<sebas> Aye, thx.
<DaSkreech> Canonical Control
<DaSkreech> *cough*
<toma> ;-)
<imbrandon> ok we done ?
<imbrandon> heh
<sebas> Cooler Cubuntu
<seaLne> DaSkreech: thats called marketing
<Hobbsee> next meeting?
<toma> three weeks?
<Riddell> monday 14th at 16:00utc
<Hobbsee> what the hell?
<imbrandon> Riddell: kk adding to fridge now
<imbrandon> lol
<Riddell> imbrandon: that's where I got it from
<Hobbsee> what's 1600UTC in aest?
<Hobbsee> 2100 is 7am
<sebas> 2am
<Hobbsee> oh holy crud.
* Hobbsee likely wont make that meeting then.
<Hobbsee> i migth, we'll see
<sebas> AEST is Australia?
<DaSkreech> Hobbsee:  We could poke you :)
<Hobbsee> sebas: yes.  aus eastern standard time
<Hobbsee> DaSkreech: yeah. Riddell woudl get an earful over it.
<imbrandon> Hobbsee: we'll all skype your phone
<sebas> Ah, where are you located?
<Hobbsee> sebas: sydney
<imbrandon> sydney
<sebas> Ok!
<toma> nite all
* sebas installed basket, wondering what it does.
<Riddell> I'm about to collapse too, end of meeting, thanks all
<Hobbsee> no time for breakfast :(
<Hobbsee> night all
<Hobbsee> night Riddell, thanks for the call
<imbrandon> gnight Riddell
<allee> toma: nite
<allee> nite all too
<sebas> -------------------------------
<sebas> (end)
<seaLne> sebas: the dev version of basket is v nice
<sebas> seaLne: I've installed a package, it has a nice icon. :-)
<DaSkreech> sebas: I installed it. It's a basket 
<DaSkreech> Don't put all your python eggs into it
<seaLne> think one note etc
<seaLne> a way to organise stuff
<seaLne> anyway bed
<sebas> Ah, first thing it did is crashing.
<DaSkreech> It lost a whole set of notes I made :-(
<DaSkreech> Course that was in the Great Power comany fiasco
<sebas> I'll have to keep using subversion then ;-)
<sebas> gnight all, I'm on CEST and becoming tired.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Aug 16:00 UTC: Community Council | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 23:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<rexbron> seft36yu
<rexbron> asdjfze;f
<rexbron> god damn cat
<Hawkwind> rexbron: Easy on the language please
<rexbron> sorry
<rexbron> its my sisters cat
<DaSkreech> lol
<DaSkreech> I was trying to figure out which file you ran the cat command on
<digitalmouse> cat | grep seft36yu
<digitalmouse> my ferret has the same problem :-p
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 14 Aug 18:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 22:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Aug 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<jecuendet> help
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-08-12
<nixternal> sorry for the floods earlier, as it seems my router was nailed...
<UpMarc> 	Hello... can someone tell me where to find "printer device"?
<Burgundavia> UpMarc: printer device?
<UpMarc> yes...
<UpMarc> installed my printer... jobs in line and no printing...
<UpMarc> not even a test page
<Burgundavia> did you get my PM?
<UpMarc> and got a clue that the problem could be in the printer device settings
<Hawkwind> UpMarc: Probably better channels than this one to ask in.  Like #Ubuntu or #Ubuntu-Classroom 
<UpMarc> will try Classroom... ty
<Hawkwind> Best to ask in #Ubuntu to be honest
<UpMarc> got no answer over there...
<UpMarc> :-(
<Burgundavia> it can be very busy
<Hawkwind> Patience is a wonderful thing :)
<Burgundavia> lets move to #ubuntu-classroom
<Hawkwind> This channel is for IRC meetings
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 14 Aug 11:00: Community Council | 15 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 16 Aug 15:00: Edubuntu | 17 Aug 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 23 Aug 07:00: Edubuntu | 24 Aug 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-08-06
<bashelier> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 07 Aug 17:00: Kernel Team | 08 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu | 09 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 06:00: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-08-07
<kraut> moin
<bashelier> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 07 Aug 17:00: Kernel Team | 08 Aug 14:00: Edubuntu | 09 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 06:00: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting
<fernando> @schedule Sao_Paulo
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Sao_Paulo: 07 Aug 12:00: Kernel Team | 08 Aug 09:00: Edubuntu | 09 Aug 12:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 01:00: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 14:00: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 12:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Kernel Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 09 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 04:00 UTC: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Server Team meeting
<BenC> hello everyone
<BenC> So this is the kernel team meeting
<BenC> Information on the Ubuntu kernel team can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam, and the agenda (needs updating) is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<BenC> We'll use last meeting as a template
<BenC> amitk__, rtg_, pkl_: ping
<rtg_> pong
<pkl_> pong
<amitk__> pong
<pkl_> kyle not around?
<BenC> Checking on that
<BenC> So we'll just go down the list for now
<BenC> amitk__: So what's on your plate?
<amitk__> 2d DRM drivers for UME
<amitk__> thermal optimsation patches from Intel - again for UME
<amitk__> THE END.
<BenC> Are you ok with the changes needed to get DRM in lum and disabled in linux-source?
<BenC> for lpia that is
<amitk__> BenC: yes i am. I will submit a patch for review
<amitk__> are we switching MIDs to the lpia arch rightaway?
<BenC> Might be a better question for ubuntu-mobile :)
<amitk__> I though we were still sticking with the UME flavour of i386 for the time-being
<amitk__> ok
<BenC> amitk__: Any progress or updates for laptop testing?
<amitk__> unfortunately not. I have updated some of the tests. I hope to find some time towards the end of the week
<BenC> Ok, definitely want to get that moving with tribe-4 coming out Thu
<BenC> let me know if we need to offset some of this effort
<amitk__> ok
<BenC> amitk__: thanks for the updates
<BenC> pkl_: how's things coming along with you?
<pkl_> Very slow.  Still stuck doing the writeSupportForNTFS stuff
<pkl_> Mainly all packaging based, which means it's taking me a long time because I'm completely unfamiliar with it.
<pkl_> Hoped to have had it finished last week.  I currently anticipate today.
<BenC> pkl_: do you have a packaging mentor?
<pkl_> No.
<BenC> cjwatson: ah, perfect timing...do you know who would be best to contact about mentoring pkl for packaging ntfs-write stuff?
<pkl_> It should be mainly finished now.
<cjwatson> BenC: probably me TBH
<cjwatson> I've already done some bits around the side there
<BenC> ok
<cjwatson> I extend a standing offer to anyone on the kernel team to review and sponsor userspace bits for them, if you can't find anyone else
<kylem> i can help...
<BenC> I'm more than willing myself, just depends on the TZ overlap, or just waiting
<BenC> pkl_: so probably just an email to kernel-team@ once the packages are ready, and we'll definitely check it over
<cjwatson> cc me if you want me to look at it, as I don't read kernel-team@ regularly
<BenC> pkl_: How goes things with virtualization? Any time to test xen yet?
<pkl_> Not yet.
<BenC> zul_: anything to add on xen?
<BenC> so far, I've yet to hear of a real live test
<zul_> BenC: yeah I have an update this week, seems to work fine for me
<BenC> so you're running dom0 and domU from our image with no problems?
<zul_> yep
<zul_> no problems now at least
<BenC> any chance you've checked on the amd64 build failure?
<zul_> from today?
<zul_> oh the kernel side, not yet
<zul_> will do so tonight
<zul_> but Im pretty sure my new patch will fix it
<BenC> zul_: from when we tried a week or so ago
<BenC> ok
<BenC> pkl_, zul_: thanks
<BenC> rtg_: So how's your work load going, or should I just call you dell-man? :)
<rtg_> dell-man is fine with me :)
<rtg_> I'm working on the Dell recovery stuff http://linux.dell.com/dru/index.php a little bit.
<rtg_> Also working through the list of Dell related bugs.
<rtg_> Its ever so much easier when you have the hardware.
<rtg_> I need to start working on Gutsy wireless bugs  pretty soon.
<BenC> ok, that last response answered my question :)
<rtg_> So, my plate is full for the foreseeable future.
<BenC> Any bugs you're aware of with wireless?
<rtg_> I've seen several, but have not looked closely at any yet.
<rtg_> Some of them are probably unfixable, like bcm43xx  stuff.
<rtg_> There is a lot of churn in the wireless-dev tree.
<BenC> Anything we might want to pull in for gutsy?
<rtg_> Linville has made some interesting decisions w/regard to soft mac.
<BenC> One thing we may want to consider now is that we may want a newer mac80211 than what's in our stock 2.6.22 kernel
<rtg_> I couldn't say for sure how it might affect Gutsy.
<zul_> BenC: I have some santa rosa ids sitting in my git tree that ill push soon
<rtg_> It will take some research.
<BenC> zul_: pass those through kyle, please
<zul_> ok
<rtg_> Thats it from me.
<BenC> rtg_: Ok, definitely check into mac80211 from wireless-dev and possibly some of the wireless-dev mac80211 converted drivers for lum
<rtg_> Will do.
<BenC> there are some other drivers that we may need newer mac80211 for, specifically iwlwifi
<BenC> rtg_: ok, thanks
<BenC> kylem: so finally back from your forced extended trip to ubuntulive? :)
<kylem> heh.
<kylem> getting home was expensive. :/
<BenC> kylem: so how's things with your work load?
<kylem> anyway, i've been trying to plough through some of the untriaged bugs reported by the intel qa people.
<BenC> right, that looked like a pretty tedious list
<kylem> other than that, i've been getting a bugfix xf86-video-intel release ready for gutsy.
<BenC> kylem: what about general Intel enablement...are we good with that for gutsy, and just need to address bugs?
<kylem> because the current git head has a pile of changes we don't want, but also a lot of bugfixes we need
<BenC> other than the iwlwifi bug fixes that is
<kylem> there's two patches coming this week for iwlwifi that will bring our 0.0.42 to 1.0.0, which should be good to go for gutsy for 4965.
<kylem> their focus has been enabling 4965, so we're going to need to stick with ipw3945 for gutsy.
<BenC> kylem: I assume 1.0.0 means they will have certified it?
<kylem> BenC, indeed.
<BenC> excellent
<kylem> lastly i've been picking through some alsa patches from 2.6.23-rc2 to see what is relevant for enablement on gutsy.
<kylem> er, second to lastly
<kylem> there's also a bit more stuff going on with the e1000 drivers that i've been picking at but haven't had time to sit down and beat at yet
<BenC> kylem: Oh, TheMuso is only handling alsa userspace, so you're still the go-to-guy for kernel side :)
<kylem> it seems intel has released some new e100 chipsets which are a e1000 mac, with a 10/100 phy, so we need the new driver for them (even though they're really only 10/100.)
<BenC> kylem: Ok..perhaps look into updating feisty lbm too then
<kylem> yes, it will likely become relevant to tim at some point in the near future.
<BenC> kylem: great, thanks
<rtg_> kylem: everything I have from Dell works over ethernet.
<kylem> rtg_, for now...
<BenC> hopefully those new macs wont become relevant till gutsy is viable as an option
<BenC> but we can update lbm in feisty without too much worry, restricting to just the PCI ids needed
<kylem> dell is already shipping a laptop with it, i imagine it's only a matter of time until they want linux on it.
<rtg_> kylem: which one ? Maybe I can get them to send it to me.
<kylem> dunno, i'll dig out the pci id later.
<kylem> it's in one of the models of dell vostro.
<kylem> the last thing i've been mucking with is hrtimers for x86-64 which we probably can't ship in gutsy; kind of a shame but c'est la vie.
<BenC> Any points from community folks?
<zul> no for me
<kylem> fedora is going to be shipping it though, so we'll be behind them on power saving on amd64 :\
<BenC> kylem: fortunately, most people who want decent desktop on x86_64 use 32-bit anyway, it seems
<BenC> at least I do
<kylem> feh.
<BenC> Can't have my youtube on 64-bit without jumping through hurdles
<kylem> gnash does youtube quite nicely these days.
<kylem> ;-)
<BenC> ah, haven't tested that yet :)
<zul> slacker :)
<BenC> but then there's wine and win32 codecs
<rtg_> BenC: whats going on with the Turion boot problem?
<BenC> rtg_: I didn't get CPU ids in time for an upload by kyle
<BenC> but "nolapic_timer nohz=off" is a decent work around
<BenC> we should get that added to the tribe-4 release notes
<BenC> So, we're starting to get down to the crunch in our cycle...less development and more bug work
<BenC> feature freeze approaches, kernel freeze shortly after
<BenC> When that starts to settle, it's a good time to start thinking about next UDS and gutsy+1
<cjwatson> I don't know if it came up before I joined, but has work for 6.06.2 been parcelled out?
<BenC> Ah, right, was on my mind earlier, but forgot to add it to the agenda
<cjwatson> a bunch of stuff is still just assigned to the team
<BenC> I've got the list of drivers to work on, and most likely I'll be handling most of it
<BenC> cjwatson: I suspect I should contact heno to get testing prior to upload?
<cjwatson> yes, we'll need to organise something based on what hardware is available
<BenC> Hopefully I can get Montreal support and elmo to help with the testing
<BenC> Get a modified CD image up
<cjwatson> heno is a good contact to start with, and if anyone else has hardware related to any of those bugs I recommend making sure that you have a 6.06.1 install on it somewhere if possible
<cjwatson> yep, I'll be preparing proposed CD images
<BenC> I'll get you the kernel images then
<BenC> Any last comments?
<kylem> moo.
<zul> baaah
<Hobbsee> BenC: ni!
<BenC> Alright then, thanks everyone
<BenC> meeting adjourned
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 09 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 04:00 UTC: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 19:00 UTC: Technical Board
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-08-08
<Fujitsu> 4
<Fujitsu> Oops.
<viperio> hi
<viperio> any administrator for the LoCo Webpages here ?
<kraut> moin
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 04:00 UTC: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 19:00 UTC: Technical Board
<stgraber> argh, I won't be at this meeting either, gotta go install some computers ... :(
<kraut> !help
<ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
<kraut> how was this function called, to see the dates in another timezone?
<kraut> !time cet
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about time cet - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<kraut> .time cet
<kraut> @time cet
<ubotu> Current time in CET: August 08 2007, 13:53:06 - Current meeting: Edubuntu
<kraut> @time Berlin
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/Berlin: August 08 2007, 13:53:17 - Current meeting: Edubuntu
<kraut> oO
* ogra waves
* highvoltage waves back to ogra over the continent
* RichEd waves back to all
<RichEd> and ogra kicks off with TECH
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> i'll try to keep it as shoprt as possible
<ogra> mostly we had ltsp code merges last week ...
<ogra> new ldm is in since 5.0.22
<ogra> i'm preparing tribe4 since monday ....
<ogra> sadly there is a bug (apparently in apt) that prevents ltsp clients from building on the server CD
<ogra> beyond that the liveCD is heavily oversized ... sadly digging for the server CD breakage didnt leave me time to investigate that yet
<ogra> so i'm not sure we'll make tribe4 at all
<ogra> thats it ...
<RichEd> ogra: what are the consequencesof missing tribe 4 ?
<ogra> less testing
<ogra> less feedback
<ogra> i'll try to make it happen, but currently its not clear what the exact bug is
<highvoltage> so if the tribe 4 deadline is missed, there won't be a tribe 4 for edubuntu?
<ogra> without knowing we cant fix ...
<RichEd> and will you be able to get it right for tribe 5 ?
<ogra> sure
<RichEd> okay ... good :)
<ogra> but i wouldnt like o go without tribe4
<ogra> deadline is tomorrow ...
<pips1> what's the status with the moodle packaging ?
<ogra> so there is still hope :)
<ogra> pips1, moquist knows about freeze dates and works on it
<pips1> ic
<ogra> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=6347
<ogra> hrm
<ogra> revu seems down
<Riddell> it is
<ogra> on a side note i discovered this horrible doc: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP/TroubleShooting
<highvoltage> ogra: I think it's down along with the other community sites (like the loco teams)
<ogra> which shocked me quite a bit ...
<ogra> especially:
<ogra> We've found some bugs in a number of components in the Ubuntu LTSP kit, hopefully some of the developers will take a look at this page at some point and possibly integrate some of our fixes back into the mix. Until then however, below we detail how we got around some of the more interesting issues.
<ogra> most of these "helpful" things are just using the defaults we use anyway ...
<ogra> others like the sound hack are just utterly wrong
<highvoltage> how did that get into help.ubuntu.com? and who wrote it?
<ogra> it has a history
<ogra> what worries me most about it is that it exists since 2006
<ogra> created under the assumption "some developer will see it"
<cliebow_> hmmm
<highvoltage> heh, so they basically filed 'bugs' on help.ubuntu.com. how bizzarre.
<ogra> which i didnt until someone asked me about it in support this week
<ogra> a) they filed bugs in the wiki
<ogra> b) they gave wronmg solutions
<ogra> (which is not remarkable since no dev ever saw that page :P)
<ogra> i'm not sure what top do with that page now ... i dont want to wipe others work ... in bug reports i would have responded to tehm properly ...
<cliebow_> perhaps a disclaimer??
<ogra> yeah
<highvoltage> ogra: well, it's clearly not of much use, shouldn't it just be deleted with a reference to the correct documentation?
<ogra> hmm, probably
<ogra> but i'd also like to prevent such stuff from happening somehow
<highvoltage> I thought there was some kind of process for moving pages to help.ubuntu.com from the wiki
<ogra> we need to make launchpad more prominent in the community somehow
<highvoltage> ogra: for support?
<highvoltage> oh, and for bugs, of course
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> bugs mostly
* RichEd thinks that a clear way of moving / guiding and advising what can be found where will be useful
<ogra> all ltsp devs are autosubscribed to the ltsp bugs now ... so proper bugfiling gains better answers indeed
<RichEd> (which sites) it is a bit confusing for some people
<cliebow_> be nice to make an obvious index
<ogra> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ltsp/+filebug is the general ltsp bug url ...
<pips1> yes, and the wikis are open... for wikipedia, I think there is always at least one person who "claims" a topic, but in technical documentation, people don't feel attached / "own" an article. at best, the write it down and forget it... :-/
<ogra> well, i'm subscribed to UbuntuLTSP on help.ubunru.com
<ogra> but that page wasnt added to the index ever
<pips1> wiki = low barrier for entry, but no real quality control either..
<ogra> (index being https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuLTSP in that case)
<pips1> i.e. you can't guarantee that someone applies the proper tag (UbuntuLTSP)
<ogra> pips1, well, h.u.c is just a wiki as well
<pips1> doesn't h.u.c have locked pages... erm, no, different altogehter... i thought it was static html pages created from versioned docbook files?
<ogra> might be, but apparently every ubuntu member can edit it ...
<ogra> it == content
<pips1> ah
<ogra> for me it doesnt behave differently than the wiki while using it
<highvoltage> that's interesting, I thought only docteam members could. I just logged in to doc.ubuntu.com for the first time and noticed I can edit. that's quite cool.
<pips1> right, you are talking about the 'community' part of help.ubuntu.com...
<pips1> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<ogra> rigth
<pips1> oh, they must have changed that?
<pips1> I didn't know that any person can edit h.u.c/community ... I only thought that only doc.u.c is editable by anyone
<ogra> i wonder what makes it different to wiki.u.c then ...
<ogra> its the same but different url ... so we have two places for docs
<pips1> doc.u.c is supposed to be the drafting place for documentation and help.u.c the "approved" documentation...?!
<ogra> well
<ogra> h.u.c/comminty == second wiki.u.c
<ogra> *community
<ogra> thats just scattering info over various places ...
<ogra> anyway, lets not hold up the meeting with that now
<ogra> tech done (in case nobody has questions)
<RichEd> artwork ... any progress with our new volunteer ?
<ogra> she seems not here
<RichEd> she's based in the US ... so I think the other meeting time is better for her
<RichEd> we'll check next week ...
<RichEd> documentation ?
<RichEd> anyone ?
<highvoltage> nothing I can think of
<RichEd> okay ... pips1 any web site / community items for today ?
<RichEd> from my side, on a bizarre community related note ... Bill Hilf (head of Open Source at MSFT) has mailed me after meeting (bumping into) Mark Shuttleworth at OSCON in Portland.
<pips1> RichEd nothing except for the update i told you about already
<RichEd> he wants a call & a chat to see how we can collaborate ...
* RichEd will chat to him, but will be very wary ... and cautious 
<cliebow_> MSFT:that what i think it might be?
<pips1> what is the FT part?
<RichEd> indeed mr cliebow_
<cliebow_> 8~)
<RichEd> that's the stock exchange abbreviation ...
<pips1> oh ic
<RichEd> so I use it as better than quoting the full name ... and not as emotiona as all the M$ approach
<RichEd> *emotional
<RichEd> ---
<RichEd> On a final note from my side:
<RichEd> to fill the others in on the discussion last week:
<RichEd> We're more or less agreed to separate the original 2 hour meeting as per the mail lists:
<RichEd> into edubuntu-devel and edubuntu-users ...
<RichEd> LaserJock has been making good suggestions ...
<RichEd> we're still haggling about
<RichEd> * how long each meeting needs to be
<RichEd> * the exact agenda points
<highvoltage> RichEd: I've been wondering, have you ever considered an education meeting too?
<RichEd> highvoltage: the users will be education
<highvoltage> ok
<RichEd> it will have "using Edubuntu" topics
<RichEd> as well as "teaching / content" etc
* RichEd needs to get a wiki page up for discussion ... but I missed that for this week
<RichEd> will try to get it up over the weekend
<RichEd> (for the new agenda ... with items to prompt discussion)
<RichEd> we'll try out the new structure next week ... i'll separate the meetings on the fridge schedule along with new agenda page
<RichEd> we'll also announce each meeting each week, and call for discussion topics
<RichEd> especially the user meeting
<RichEd> LaserJock suggests we have a weekly problems and suggestions slot in the user-meeting to get feedback and direction
<RichEd> and get the user community to feel that we care about their issues, and listen
<RichEd> and also encourage schools / teachers to create shared projects ...
<RichEd> and help with our communit needs
<RichEd> *community
<RichEd> ^ comments
<RichEd> ^ suggestions ?
<cliebow_> moodle support is a big step that way
<RichEd> I'm happy to put this into a mail and send to the two mailing lists
<RichEd> ---
<RichEd> that's all from me for today
<RichEd> anyone else with topics ? or agenda items ?
<RichEd> if not we can wrap and allow ogra to get back to his tribe issue
<highvoltage> nope, except that if anyone needs me for anything, please send me a message, and I'll try to help.
<ogra> help testing ! (in case i ever get the iso working proper)
<pips1> RichEd: nothing for the meeting, note, I'll send you that email about the update in a sec
<highvoltage> ogra: righto
<highvoltage> ogra: if an iso works, please ping me, I have good bandwidth now and can sync quite easily
<RichEd> ogra: I'm busy setting up that test notebook next to me now ... so I can help
<ogra> cool !
* RichEd is having screen issues :(
<RichEd> old mecer
<ogra> i'll send a ping to #edubuntu if i have something working
<RichEd> --- going once then
<RichEd> --- going twice then
<highvoltage> *BONG*
<RichEd> thrice ...
<RichEd> thanks all
<ogra> RichEd, i bet gutsy would solve the screen issues ... new intel drivers all over there
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 04:00 UTC: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-08-09
<coNP> @now Budapest
<ubotu> Current time in Europe/Budapest: August 09 2007, 02:17:15 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 14 hours 42 minutes
<kraut> moin
<stgraber> @schedule Zurich
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 09 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 06:00: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 21:00: Technical Board | 15 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 09 Aug 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 00:00: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 13:00: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 11:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 15 Aug 16:00: Edubuntu
<dendrobates> @schedule New York
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 09 Aug 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 00:00: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 13:00: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 11:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 15 Aug 16:00: Edubuntu
<DarkRaven_> .
<mvo> @schule berlin
<mvo> @schedule berlin
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 09 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 06:00: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 21:00: Technical Board | 15 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu
<juliux> schule?
<Hobbsee> german school, probably
<juliux> Hobbsee, i know;)
<evand> @schedule New_York
<ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 09 Aug 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 00:00: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 13:00: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 11:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 15:00: Technical Board | 15 Aug 16:00: Edubuntu
<kraut> @schedule berlin
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 09 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 10 Aug 06:00: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 21:00: Technical Board | 15 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu
<jono> IMPORTANT NOTICE: if people are waiting for the training meeting - it will take place in #ubuntu-training instead
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Aug 04:00 UTC: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* bdmurray waves to kwwii
<kwwii> hi bdmurray
<pitti> hello
<kwwii> congrats on winning that geek contest thing again
<calc> hdllo
<kwwii> :p
<bdmurray> heh
<calc> erm hello
<bdmurray> "geek contest thing"
<bryce> morning
* LongPointyStick gives up on this assignment completely.
<agoliveira> Hi all!
<Skiessi> hi
<ArneGoetje> Good Evening!
<evand> hi
<fabbione> yo
<BenC> fabbione: hey
<fabbione> hey Ben
<fabbione> still 4 minutes.. just the right time for a quick one.. brb
* BenC smokes in the house now
<mdz> howdy all
<dendrobates> \o/
<BenC> hey mdz
* mvo waves
<amitk_> hey all
<Mithrandir> afternoon
<Hobbsee> greetings all, greetings mdz
<pitti> fabbione: almost as quick as Al Bundy :-D
* keescook waves "hi"
<Skiessi> what happens after 2 minutes?
<cjwatson> hello
<BenC> pitti: lol
<Klaidas> universe implodes :)
<keescook> "don't cross the streams"
<rodserling> Oh my!
<Hobbsee> the sky falls in
<mdz> mathiaz: ping
<Klaidas> linux becomes ready for the corporate desktop :-D
<seb128> hi
<asac> ola
<BenC> rtg_: I see you've just gotten some toys
<mathiaz> mdz: pong
<rtg_> yep
<tkamppeter_> hi
<Skiessi> hi
<Riddell> hi all
<fabbione> pitti: ehehe
<jono> IMPORTANT NOTICE: if people are here for the training meeting - it will take place in #ubuntu-training instead
<zul> just lurking
<mdz> week's activity and agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070809
<Hobbsee> zul: we need to enlarge the lurkers cupboard, so more of us can lurk
<mdz> first order of business is to welcome jono (who is participating in the parallel training meeting) to the team
<mdz> he will be continuing in his role as community manager, but will be working much more closely with the canonical ubuntu team going forward
<jono> mdz: :)
* keescook hugs jono
<BenC> jono: welcome aboard
<jono> keescook: :)
<Mithrandir> oh, I was so looking forward to breaking him in on crazy packaging. :-)
<jono> BenC: :)
<jono> heh
* asac hugs jono 
<mdz> in particular, he will be focusing on the developer community, helping to support MOTU and refine processes around it
<jono> asac: :)
<Hobbsee> oh neat, welcome, jono
<Hobbsee> (and good luck)
* mvo hugs jono
* agoliveira hugs jono
<mdz> so please feel free to share your thoughts about community with him, and welcome him if he comes to you to talk about any of this
<jono> wow, such nice peple :)
* ogra hugs jono 
<Hobbsee> jono: will you be at the MOTU meeting tomorrow night, incidently?  (if it exists?)
<kwwii> one week in a hotel room together and he changes teams
<jono> Hobbsee: I will check with my schedule if I can get along
<Hobbsee> Friday, August 10,
<Hobbsee> 2007, at 04:00 UTC.
<asac> lol
<Hobbsee> cool
<ogra> kwwii, he was sharing with the distro team ?
<Skiessi> What's MOTU?
<Hobbsee> !motu | Skiessi
<ubotu> Skiessi: motu is short for Masters of the Universe. The brave souls who maintain the packages in the Universe section of Ubuntu. See  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<mdz> Skiessi: wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<kwwii> ogra: yepp
<Skiessi> ...sure
<mdz> ok, further hugs for jono can be directed to him after the meeting ;-)
<Skiessi> thanks
<jono> :)
<mdz> pitti: would you like to give a brief release update to go with tribe 4?
<pitti> I will probably write a post-mortem
<ogra> heh
<pitti> it was a mess, so we need to change the release policy slightly to improve that in the future
<Hobbsee> ...with a stiff drink in one hand, to cope with the mess, yes
<pitti> right now I moved most of the tribe-4 bugs to tribe-5
<pitti> so we have more serious bugs than ever
<mdz> is that due to folks working to finish off features for feature freeze?
<pitti> not that I blame you for it, we have features, those nasty bugs, and dapper.2 on top of it, but we have to balance it better
<mdz> or because the bugs are particularly tricky?
<pitti> partly because there is very little work in between the tribes on those bugs
<pitti> and partly we got stuff like tracker, deskbar-applet, fusa, and new OO.o in two days before the tribe release
<pitti> that happened in the previous tribes, too
<Hobbsee> yes, it seems as if everyone goes "ooh, drat, we've gotten the announcement about a few days before the freeze.  quick, fix everything!"
* Hobbsee noticed that for t3 as well
<mdz> fusa? oh, fast user switching
<iwj> mdz: The applet.
<pitti> so I plan to freeze gutsy a lot longer in the future and do a mini feature-freeze
<pitti> I see the point of getting new features tested
<iwj> pitti: Sounds sensible.
<mdz> Hobbsee: well, that is part of why we do milestones, to remind everyone to keep up ;-)
<Hobbsee> mdz: this is true :)
<pitti> but rushing them in and shipping them half-broken won't do us nor our users any good
<seb128> pitti: longer freeze doesn't sound good :/
<Hobbsee> mdz: but they dont - the bugs keep getting delayed, as they didnt get in in time
<pitti> seb128: we tried with the short ones, and it spectacularly failed
<seb128> pitti: well, if those were not going to land now they were not going to be before feature freeze and I prefer to have those desktop changes tested this cycle than just before a LTS
<pitti> and spending two days just firefighting two or three grave problems instead of preparing a good release doesn't help much either
<pitti> seb128: right, I agree
<pitti> but my point is:
<Hobbsee> seb128: part of the problem with the long freeze is that people are still having large, major uploads in after the freeze.
<pitti> features shuold be uploaded right after a test release and in between, not rushed right at the freeze time
* ogra would vote for one milestone less in the schedule as well ...
<pitti> OO.o was a particular beast, and largely due to a misunderstanding
<pitti> I won't generalize that to policy changes
<mdz> the current release cycle is roughly 1 month planning, 3 months feature development, 2 months stabilization
<mdz> do you think we need to adjust that balance?
<pitti> mdz: no, I don't think so
<seb128> pitti: right, I agree, I have responsabilities in there but desktop is way too much for 1 people nowadays and I do what I can :/
<pitti> mdz: we need to adjust the micro-schedule, not the one for the entire release
<mdz> oh, I meant to try MootBot for this meeting, but forgot
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:06. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] 
<Hobbsee> mdz: it'd be nice if we could get it off the LP release cycle too, if possible.
<pitti> seb128: I appreciate that
<Hobbsee> mdz: so that LP doesnt break when trying to release
<iwj> Having a mini _feature_ freeze in addition to the archive freeze, before the milestone, seems eminently sensible.
<pitti> seb128: just discussing alternatives
<mdz> MootBot: sorry for not telling you at the beginning of the meeting
<doko> rushing in OO.o at this point wasn't necessary, the release stopper bug which was present in 2.2 wasn't fixed in 2.3
<pitti> if we introduce a new feature, it shuold work well and make us proud
<mdz> [TOPIC]  release management and  tribe-4
<MootBot> New Topic:  release management and  tribe-4
<pitti> announcing something that barely works is bad IMHO
<pitti> MootBot? that's new
<calc> doko: we finally have a firm grasp on what the bug is however and that was within the past couple days
<pitti> doko: right
<cjwatson> doko: the rationale was that it needed to land before UVF anyway and OOo needs as much testing as we can give it
<mdz> MootBot is a tool that the Ubuntu Scribes team created
<Hobbsee> pitti: it's from the scribes team
<pitti> doko: but we only knew that *after* it was uploaded
<mdz> to track meeting activity so they can summarize it
<pitti> doko: before we assumed that it would fix the eternal hang
<pitti> that was due to a bad misunderstanding
<seb128> pitti: the goal is to get those working nicely for gutsy, not to be perfect for whatever tribe they land to imo
<calc> apparently depending on which libraries you have installed (not just -gtk) it may happen to work for a user, or not
<cjwatson> I think we focus too much on having no major problems in a milestone, sometimes
<pitti> seb128: maybe not perfect, but it should reasonably work at least
<cjwatson> the goal is for major problems from one milestone to be fixed in the next
<mdz> [LINK]  week's activity and agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070809
<doko> pitti: well, in the past we did prepare new OOo versions in ppa archives first, and only did upload when it was working on all release archs.
<MootBot> LINK received:  week's activity and agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070809
<mvo> I agree with seb128 here (also the banlance needs to be maintained, we can not release too broken tribes)
<cjwatson> not for no new ones to turn up
<cjwatson> and I think it's inevitable that we only notice certain problems when people focus on testing
<pitti> cjwatson:  "focus too much on having no major problems in a milestone" -> TBH I think we have too many
<pitti> cjwatson: I agree
<pitti> so this time I *did* some early testing last week
<pitti> and CDs looked quite good
<calc> gtk changed something that causes partial initialization of it to fail horribly instead of just happening to still work
<seb128> pitti: well, we either should perhaps target less features then and focus on bug fixing
<iwj> cjwatson: Having a slightly longer period for people who've just rushed in an upload to say `oh wait no that's horridly broken let me fix it' might help a bit.
<pitti> but then we rushed a few new features in
<calc> which bit several programs including OOo, some OOo libraries probably do full init which causes it to work if they are around
<pitti> seb128: well, then we'll slip on features, not good either
<pitti> we just need to land them a little earlier
<seb128> right, easy to say
<cjwatson> iwj: that's true. though it is the zeno's tortoise development model to some extent :-)
<fabbione> pitti: isn't this why we have a release manager to blame? :P
<pitti> seb128: I know :/
<seb128> I know I've landed some things late but that was not bad willing
<pitti> seb128: I'm not blaming you for anything
<seb128> that's the best I could manage without dholbach there to give an hand
<mdz> pitti: perhaps it would help to send out an early "start getting things in now" before the "freeze is imminent" reminder?
<pitti> the tribe's done, it reasonably works, but I think we can improve
<pitti> and I'd like to discuss that with you isntead of deciding on my own
<seb128> pitti: right, but most of the late changes there are desktop things I've landed, so I feel it's part of my fault
<Keybuk> mdz: what would be the timescale for that mail?
<seb128> but that was either that or not landing things this cycle
<pitti> mdz: that might help, yes, together with a mini feature-freeze on Thursday before maybe
<mvo> seb128: I think a lot of people had their share this time (my apt change included)
<iwj> You could have a soft freeze "please try to avoid uploading your new feature after <x> if possible and consider whether the next milestone might not be a better target" ?
<mdz> Keybuk: pitti's decision, I think
<pitti> some ten days before release, I think
<pitti> Monday the week before
<mdz> pitti: perhaps some tools would help as well
<pitti> we'll find out
<mdz> perhaps if every time one ran dput, it would print the next week or so of the release schedule :-)
<pitti> heh
<mdz> to remind folks to plan ahead
<seb128> pitti: with a feature freeze 10 days ago I would never have managed to land the desktop changes and they would have been delayed to next cycle maybe
<Keybuk> pitti: in the latter half of the release cycle, that's almost the day after the previous tribe :p
<pitti> seb128: no, not feature freeze, announcement
<pitti> seb128: mini-FF on Friday evening before tribe
<cjwatson> iwj: I think we'd have to space milestones out more in order to have finer granularity
<cjwatson> (which would not *necessarily* be a bad thing)
<seb128> pitti: k
<mdz> pitti: if the problem was with the new features that seb landed, it doesn't sound like awareness is the problem, but simply too much work to be done in too little time
<doko> and more freezes don't help for features which are unrelated to milestones
<pitti> yeah, ten days advance announcement for new features works for three weeks
<pitti> two weeks is very tight on its own
<iwj> pitti: I see people working weekends to fix their Friday rush jobs :-).
* mvo is sure that will happen
<cjwatson> iwj: *cough*
<pitti> doko: things like lpia don't really affect the CDs, so those are fine
<cjwatson> pitti: but longer freezes do adversely affect bootstrapping jobs like that
<doko> pitti: besides hold of single long building packages, so these affect lpia as well
<pitti> mdz: right, in the end it simply boils down to lack of manpower
<pitti> doko: s/long building packages/major packages that affect the CDs/
<pitti> maybe we should first define what we expect from a Tribe CD
<mdz> pitti: blame france ;-)
<doko> pitti: a library yes, more? didn't even change something for the milestone architectures ;-)
<pitti> either 'something that you can use to show off Ubuntu' or 'something that (mostly) installs and is used to find bugs'
<mdz> pitti: I consider the latter to be more appropriate
<ogra> ++
<Hobbsee> and also being a reasonable time to dist-upgrade, without your system falling to pieces
<mdz> installs/upgrades
<pitti> mdz: but then we shouldn't make such a fuss about it with wiki pages and www.ubuntu.com announcements
<mdz> pitti: we do want to communicate about it, so that it gets testing
<pitti> and change the tone of announcements to be more developer-oriented
<mdz> and previews of new features are a good reason for people to test it
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: it's a very constrained point in time, though. about an hour after the release, all the frozen uploads land and it destabilises again
<mdz> but they can expect things to be broken
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: so by the time most people read the announcement, it's already unstable again
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: this is true - hence it's more in the leadup to the tribe, i guess.
<pitti> mdz: right, but if even we already know that your desktop doesn't even start often, or that feature X is broken or makes no sense (fusa on edubuntu etc.), what's the point in more testing?
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: that depends on how long it takes to build everything, too ;)
<Keybuk> pitti: finding other things that are wrong
<pitti> mdz: (slightly exaggerating, of course)
<pitti> Keybuk: right
<mdz> pitti: we should advertise a feature iff it's able to be tested
<pitti> Keybuk: that would be with the 'developer-oriented releases'
<pitti> ok
<mdz> pitti: I don't consider testing to be exclusively developer-oriented
<mdz> many people in the user community do useful testing who are not  developers
<Keybuk> indeed; some of the best feedback I've had this cycle is from getting some pure users to test a Tribe Live CD
<pitti> mdz: well, it may simply be that my quality expectations of an announced test CD are too high then :)
<dendrobates> mdz: mathiaz and I were just discussing the need for uat,
<bryce> Keybuk: same here
<pitti> ok, thanks all, no need to block the entire meeting with that
<pitti> I think I'll write some ideas and a summary to distro-team@
<mdz> dendrobates: uat?
<mdz> pitti: ok
<dendrobates> user acceptance testing.
<pitti> oh, and most of all:
<Hobbsee> pitti: could you CC me on that, if appropriate, as i'm interested in it as well
<mdz> [ACTION]  pitti to summarize and discuss release management questions by mail
<pitti> thanks to the entire team for your great work and the night shifts!
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to summarize and discuss release management questions by mail
* pitti hugs the team
<mdz> pitti: I think ubuntu-devel would be more appropriate
<ogra> pitti, i really think mvo deserves an extra hug from us all ;)
* seb128 hugs pitti, sorry for the hard time, you are doing a rocking work ;)
<pitti> and calc, too!
<ogra> yeah
* pitti gives an extra hug to mvo, calc, and seb128
<BenC> team hug!
* Hobbsee hugs all of those who *didnt* break compiz this release.
* mvo hugs pitti calc seb128 ogra
<mdz> [TOPIC]  (pitti) progress discussion for Ubuntu 6.06.2 point release
<MootBot> New Topic:  (pitti) progress discussion for Ubuntu 6.06.2 point release
<pitti> mvo: yeah, indeed, no OMGnodesktop!! things this time
<mvo> Hobbsee: that would be me! *yyyuuuahhhh*
<Hobbsee> mvo: :D
<asac> pitti: yes ... many thanks!
<Keybuk> mvo: well done!
<pitti> (oh god, I 0wn the schedule, it seems)
<Keybuk> (for compiz in general)
<mvo> we even fixed the nasty --replace issue
<bryce> :-)
<pitti> so, apart from all the fuss about new features and getting gutsy fixed, etc., we still need to get dapper.2 out
* mvo sends kudos to upstream
<pitti> since we are falling behind on the dapper.2 schedule due to ENOTIME, I have a question, mostly to mdz
* calc hugs everyone, sorry for the mess :\
<cjwatson> two out of three of the installer fixes are in -proposed; the other is in my editor
<pitti> should we rather cut down on the dapper.2 goals, or give this more time to solve them all and slip the end-august release?
<mdz> pitti: what kind of tasks need to be done?
<pitti> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-6.06.2 (sort by status preferably)
<mdz> pitti: making a good point release is more important than the tentative schedule
<mdz> pitti: but the reason it was set was to avoid clashing with the beta
<pitti> the kernel team is much over-represented in the assignee list, due to dapper.2 mostly being a 'get it working wiht new hw' thing
<cjwatson> also two point releases are harder than one longer one
<cjwatson> (oo-er)
<mdz> pitti: looks like mostly kernel work?
<BenC> Yeah, kernel work is in progress
<pitti> mdz: I just didn't know how firm the date is wrt. business partners etc.
<BenC> I expect to have a kernel to cjwatson by tomorrow to roll an ISO for testing
<mdz> pitti: we haven't announced the date yet, so if you want to propose a more realistic one, pleas edo
<pitti> mdz: many bugs are even simple things like loading a module in initramfs
<cjwatson> BenC: note that I'm on holiday all next week
<cjwatson> (and nowhere near a computer)
<BenC> cjwatson: so am I
<mdz> pitti: I explicitly didn't announce it at ubuntu live for this reason
<pitti> some are quite tricky kernel fixes, and we have a couple of needsinfo bugs which still need judgement from kernel guys
<pitti> mdz: good to know then
<BenC> pitti: ah, I didn't realize there were any kernel bugs that weren't confirmed in the list
<pitti> some changes in mysql, too
<pitti> BenC: not many, I think #26940 only ATM
<BenC> pitti: I'll review the bugs today
<mdz> pitti: can you take some time to estimate an achievable schedule, and we'll discuss that?
<pitti> those are the things were I'm not qualified to judge eligibility (or even feasibility) for dapper.2
<mdz> (probably based on Ben's review)
<pitti> yes, can do
<mdz> [ACTION]  pitti to draft revised schedule for 6.06.2
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to draft revised schedule for 6.06.2
<pitti> BenC: can we meet at some time to go over the list and write down some estimations?
<BenC> pitti: tomorrow, my morning, sound ok?
<pitti> BenC: good for me
<pitti> then we should also fine-tune assignees
<BenC> [ACTION]  BenC to review kernel realted 6.06.2 bugs
<mdz> [TOPIC]  pitti is going on holiday and needs people to fill in on some tasks while he is away
<MootBot> New Topic:  pitti is going on holiday and needs people to fill in on some tasks while he is away
* BenC wonders if that will work
<mdz> [ACTION]  BenC to review kernel realted 6.06.2 bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  BenC to review kernel realted 6.06.2 bugs
<BenC> bot ACLs suck :)
<mdz> BenC: no, according to the web page it's only the chair for that command
<pitti> BenC: /nick privilege escalation \o/
<BenC> ah
<mdz> I think that in general, MootBot should listen to actions from everyone, but automatically assign the action to the person ;-)
<pitti> so, we need an experienced RM to take over tribe 5&6 and dapper.2 (cjwatson or Mithrandir?)
<BenC> hehe, that will reduce the abuse
<mdz> Mithrandir is going to be flat out on mobile during that time
<pitti> not sure if Hobbsee has some time to assist?
<mdz> I think he is already oversubscribed
<Mithrandir> mdz: I am already fully booked, yes.
<Hobbsee> pitti: maybe.  it will depend on how much people want to work as a team, etc, and how much time i have
<Hobbsee> looks like cjwatson just got voluntold to do it :P
<pitti> I also expect tribe 6 to be much calmer, with FF and UVF being in place then
<pitti> tribe 5 is probably tough again, with lots of features getting rushed in (necessarily)
<cjwatson> cjwatson is not exactly undersubscribed either
<Hobbsee> pitti: obviously, i'm not in a position to take control of it, unfortunately
<pitti> Hobbsee: right
<cjwatson> I can help, but not take full responsibility
<Hobbsee> although i'd sure like to
<mdz> pitti: we need someone who is a cdimage admin?
<pitti> mdz: and an archive admin, and some soyuz knowledge
<Keybuk> Riddell: would you be interested?  you have the above and experience getting releases out
<pitti> although I don't expect every tribe to take as much soyuz h4ck1ng as I had to do in the past two days :)
<cjwatson> cdimage admin nature is easier, it's just the end-stage
<mdz> [LINK]  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-6.06.2
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-6.06.2
<pitti> yeah, building CDs is simple
<cjwatson> soyuz prodding is more frequently needed really
<pitti> steering soyuz is more difficult
<Hobbsee> pitti: presumably you're doing the release, afterwards?
<Mithrandir> pitti: fwiw, I've yet to hack soyuz, ever.
<pitti> and having some archive admin experience
<Riddell> Keybuk: possibly, of course I'm busy with other things but then so is everyone else
<mdz> pitti: could adam help with soyuz steering?
<pitti> Hobbsee: I don't think so
<pitti> mdz: absolutely, if he can make room for that
<Hobbsee> pitti: oh, so that's going to fall to the person who will be selected too.  big call, then
<pitti> having our archive team and infinity assisting the RM with the soyuz guts will work
<mdz> pitti: check with elmo, but he's qualified
<mdz> pitti: is that satisfactory then?
<mdz> Riddell(?) + archive team + infinity(or someone else who can drive soyuz)
<pitti> Riddell: if you are ok with it, I would be happy with that
<pitti> and spreading the archive/soyuz work out will help a lot, too
<Hobbsee> that'll certainly be interesting
<Riddell> I'm no soyuz expert, but other than than I can
<pitti> so RM: please push that package into the archive -- archive/soyuz guys steer publisher/queue-builder/queue etc.
<mdz> it will be a challenge to fill his shoes, but Martin deserves a honeymoon :-)
<pitti> Riddell: infinity is, and he generally works on insane (IOW European) hours anyway
<pitti> \o/
<Riddell> :)
<cjwatson> Riddell: I think we have enough people with the necessary combination of domain knowledge and outright bravery for that
<Hobbsee> pitti: all australians seem to work on european hours.  australian hours suck!
<pitti> I am allowed to take the laptop with me, but I'll be a divorced man if I'll sit at it all day :)
<cjwatson> advice from a married man: DO NOT TAKE THE LAPTOP ON YOUR HONEYMOON
* agoliveira never had a honeymoon in 12 years of marriage :(
<mdz> pitti: [ACTION]  pitti to follow up with Riddell, archive team regarding release management during his holiday?
<pitti> cjwatson: maybe that's a good piece of advice
<fabbione> cjwatson: ++
<BenC> cjwatson: but if you have to, don't take it to bed
<mdz> [ACTION]  pitti to follow up with Riddell, archive team regarding release management during his holiday
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to follow up with Riddell, archive team regarding release management during his holiday
<BenC> it's not an enhancement to the mood for sure
<calc> cjwatson: hehe, i did but had very sporadic internet access so it was ok ;)
<mdz> Handholding the apport retracers; I filed RT#28728 to make this possible, and I will write some documentation about it; seb128 offered to help out here already
<pitti> yeah, I still need to get that solved before other people can drive it
<pitti> (nothing to discuss here, though)
<mdz> ok
<pitti> now with the tribe behind me I'll continue documentation writing
<mdz> SRU bug handling and archive processing
<asac> pitti: i have no experience with those so far, but would volunteer as well ... if there is documentation and a short introduction
<pitti> mdz: oh, could you bump the priority of that RT perhaps?
<seb128> I'm happy to deal with the retracer
<pitti> asac: appreciated
<pitti> once the RT is solved, I'll give you a tutorial
<pitti> and a howto for the occasional hiccups
<asac> right ;)
<mdz> pitti: will do
<pitti> mdz: thank you
<mdz> [ACTION]  mdz to learn about the RT priority scheme and set an appropriate one for #28728
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to learn about the RT priority scheme and set an appropriate one for #28728
<pitti> seb128: we need an apport deskbar plugin!
<pitti> btw, are those action points published somewhere by this cute little MootBot?
<seb128> pitti: to do what?
<pitti> seb128: let's find out :)
<seb128> pitti: if you have a quick web browser bookmark you can already use it from deskbar ;)
<pitti> seb128: find dups or so :)
<pitti> seb128: (just kidding anyway)
<Hobbsee> pitti: yes, they get published.  somewhere.
<mdz> (maybe) language pack building; this should not take any manual intervention actually, so it's not that crucial.
<pitti> (nothing to discuss, will take that up with Arne)
<mdz> ok
<mdz> [TOPIC]  Other business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other business
<mdz> anything else for the meeting?
<Riddell> was I being volunteered for dapper or next tribe release management?
* fabbione wishes to say goodbye for his last distro team meeting
<pitti> Riddell: you are now
* mvo waves to fabbione
<doko> Riddell: soyzuz work without having access to the machines is limited
<pitti> fabbione: *sheding a tear*
<BenC> fabbione: you will be missed
<Keybuk> Riddell: yes :-)
<ogra> ciao fabbione
* dendrobates waves goodbye to fabbione
<Hobbsee> Riddell: both, it seems
<fabbione> :)
* bdmurray waves
<tkamppeter> What about CUPS? Should we stay with 1.2.12 or move to 1.3?
<bryce> cya fabbione!
<kwwii> bye fabbione
<pitti> tkamppeter: oh, good question; and s-c-p
* evand waves
<amitk> bye fabbione
<mdz> fabbione will not be going too far
<pitti> tkamppeter: what kind of feedback did you get so far?
<mathiaz> bye fabbione
<ogra> pitti, student-control-panel ?
<mdz> but perhaps not staying into the evening for distro meetings if he doesn't have to ;-)
<pitti> ogra: system-config-printer
<pitti> ogra: yay TLAs :)
<fabbione> mdz: yeah... just the next room :)
<asac> bye fabbione
<ogra> pitti, ouch ... evil
<pitti> TBH it's much less evil now
<tkamppeter> pitti, unfortunately no feedback at all, and I have posted on the devel-discuass list, no answer.
<ogra> pitti, luckily we renamed to thin-client-manager :)
<pitti> we recently discussed some UI enhancements in #u-devel
<ogra> pitti, i only meant the naming :P
<pitti> tkamppeter: hm
<Skiessi> why gutsy has still SDL 1.2.11? why not 1.2.12?
<cjwatson> Skiessi: -> #ubuntu-devel
<Skiessi> okay
<mdz> pitti: perhaps you and tkamppeter can discuss on #-devel after the meeting?
<tkamppeter> pitti, for the s-c-p I think we should take it, g-c-m shows also a driver4 selection screen and it also shows the USB backend entries for printers which are supported by HPLIP. So the add printer wizard is not much better.
<tkamppeter> OK, mdz.
<pitti> ok
<mdz> [ACTION]  tkamppeter and pitti to discuss CUPS version, etc.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  tkamppeter and pitti to discuss CUPS version, etc.
<mdz> that's a wrap, folks
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<pitti> MootBot: --help
<fabbione> bye bye
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:49.
<BenC> bye everyone
<BenC> thanks mdz
<pitti> thanks everyone
<mvo> thanks
<kwwii> thanks all
<evand> thanks
<mdz> MootBot: your watch is slow
<mathiaz> thanks all.
<amitk> thanks & bye
<ArneGoetje> Good night everyone...
<pitti> mdz: how do we get the action items from that thing now?
<ogra> thanks
<agoliveira> Bye all. Now for the embedded meeting :)
<pitti> mdz: I guess /lastlog will work :)
<seb128> thanks
<ArneGoetje> pitti: when do you have time to fill me into the Language Pack thingy?
<asac> bye
<Keybuk> MootBot: aren't you supposed to do the "the summary is available at" thing?
<Keybuk> YOUR MANUAL SAYS YOU DO!!!
<ogra> *grin*
<pitti> ArneGoetje: not before next week, I'm afraid; I still need to write some documentation before
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: second sign of insanity:  yelling at a bot.
<pitti> MootBot: *bark*
<ArneGoetje> pitti: ok. but maybe we should arrange some time for live chat, in case I have some questions :)
<Keybuk> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20070809_1506.html
* Keybuk found it
<pitti> ArneGoetje: yes, absolutely
<pitti> shiny
<ArneGoetje> pitti: good. please assing some time then, you are busier than me. ;)
<pitti> ArneGoetje: wait until you have worked in the distro team for half a year :-P
<ArneGoetje> pitti: yeah...
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: since I'm going on holiday next week, please remind me tomorrow to have a call with you, seeing as we haven't actually spoken since you started ;)
<ArneGoetje> pitti: anyways, for me any time is fine as long as it is scheduled in advance. If necessary, I'll also do a night shift.
<mdz> cjwatson: hmm, and henrik isn't back until 22 Aug
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: ok, I will be available any time before 15:00 UTC.
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: BTW: do you have skype? should be cheaper and better quality to call. ;)
<cjwatson> mdz: ouch
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: I don't, I'm afraid
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: we'll just keep the call short and shout :-)
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: :D ok, then...  maybe it's better to call landline.
<cjwatson> /init: /init: 1: cannot open /dev/fd0: No such device or address
* cjwatson peers at caspe
<cjwatson> r
<ogra> oh, wow, running the live system from multiple floppies ?
<Amaranth> it'd only take 500 of them, no big deal
<pitti> cjwatson: oh, you see that? I have that on my gf's computer, but I blamed the broken floppy in it
<ArneGoetje> ok, if tehre is nothing else to discuss with me, I'm going to bed now. :)
<bryce> cya
<cjwatson> pitti: happens in vmware with no floppy attached
<cjwatson> just wondering what the heck is looking at floppies in the first place
<pitti> wow
<pitti> cjwatson: maybe it's initramfs looking for an UUID of its root fs, and just happening to probe it or so?
* ArneGoetje yawns and waves good bye
<cjwatson> could be
<pitti> cjwatson: oh, wait, that's booting the live cd, right? no UUID there
<cjwatson> live CD, yes
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Aug 04:00 UTC: MOTU Team | 11 Aug 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-08-10
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: MOTU Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Aug 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Aug 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Aug 22:00 UTC: Forum Council meeting
<kraut> moin
<ds500ss> /reg
<ds500ss> /disconnect
* tck pokes boredandblogging
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-08-11
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Aug 22:00 UTC: Forum Council meeting
<Evergete> is there anyone?
<vidd> sorry im late
<vidd> is it over already?
<gpocentek> looks like it didn't start
<BFTD> someone start it
* Jester45 starts it
<Jester45> i dont think it started because the log isnt there
<BFTD> who is supposed to start it?
<vidd> no idea
<BFTD> ok then
<BFTD> um
<BFTD> alright, who's all here?
<vidd> i dont think any of the key developers are here
<Jester45> maybe they decided to change it
<BFTD> well
<BFTD> there is no other meetings today
<BFTD> so we should just wait
<vidd> the meeting website says the 14th is the next meeting....1700 UTC ....
<vidd> maybe ubotu got the date wrong?
<kraut> @schedule berlin
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | 14 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 21:00: Technical Board | 15 Aug 22:00: Edubuntu | 16 Aug 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 21 Aug 00:00: Forum Council meeting
<TheSheep> fridge says 11
<BFTD> yeah
<vidd> well...lets start the meeting then
<vidd> who has the agenda?
<fijam>  /Xubuntu/Meetings does not though
<vidd> was anyone here at the start of the hour?
<Evergete> yes i was
<vidd> did anything happen?
<Evergete> but the first signal of life in the meeting was yours, vidd
<vidd> did anything get said about the meeting at all?
<Evergete> no, anything
<vidd> graet!
<BFTD> hehe
<fijam> and there's no agenda I'm afraid.
<BFTD> you're the boss, take it away
<BFTD> ok
<BFTD> so is chad here?
<BFTD> or does anyone have an update on that?
<BFTD> on the protocol web site
<vidd> then the first item i would like to bring up is meeting anouncement
<vidd> there should be a meeting anouncement e-mail sent to the devel mailing list
<BFTD> agreed
<fijam> I'd also suggest to keep /Xubuntu/Meetings up to date :)
<BFTD> yes
<BFTD> its terrible behind
<vidd> here here!!
<vidd> so with that...is there anyone here with any real authority with the devel team?
<Jester45> i wish i did but i would get kicked out
<BFTD> ?
<BFTD> I don't know enough Code to become a devel yet
<BFTD> Oh, yeah, and the adding games to Xubuntu...failed
<TheSheep> good :)
<vidd> adding games got shot down?
<BFTD> no
<BFTD> there was no room left :P
<vidd> no ROOM?!?!?!?
<BFTD> that's what I was told
<TheSheep> vidd: the cd has to fit on 700MB, you know
<BFTD> actually
<BFTD> there was like 3mb of space
<vidd> yeah....and the games are ALREADY in the reposes
<BFTD> but they said it was reserved
<Jester45> they could get xoids on there
<BFTD> hehe
<BFTD> I was only gonna add like 300 kb of games :P
<BFTD> but they said no
<vidd> 3 lines of code...bang...games installed
<BFTD> hehe
<vidd> the alt cd needs to be promoted as the default installer....the live versions have been trash since they started with breezey
<BFTD> true
<Jester45> i agree
<BFTD> seperate the live cd from the install cd
<Jester45> something like "if you want to test try the live if your wanting to install try the alternative"
<BFTD> yeah
<Jester45> i wouldnt do that BFTD some people have slow internet and dont want to dl 2cds
<BFTD> but rename the alt to install
<vidd> dont even BOTHER with putting an installer on the live cd,... that will free up all kinds of room!
<Jester45> the first to see if it works and they like it and the 2nd to install
<BFTD> that's what i siad
<vidd> rename the "alt" cd to the "install" cd
<BFTD> is vidd repeating everything I'm saying?
<vidd> and move the "installer" cd to the TOP of the "get Xubuntu" page
<BFTD> yeah
<vidd> we should also promote the "net-installer" cd
<Jester45> at least make its easy to find
<Jester45> i havent used it but does it have an gui type like debian's advance option
<Jester45> that is a very nice feature
<colossus73> hi there
<Jester45> hi
<colossus73> is there a xubuntu meeting today?
<vidd> sorry...
<BFTD> its going on
<colossus73> vidd: welcome
<Jester45> i think its an unoffical one though
<Jester45> i havnet been reading it all
<fijam> right, so if anyone cares I can say how is the documentation stuff going
<BFTD> ok
<BFTD> I guess
<fijam> so it is going _slowly_
<BFTD> its slowed down lately
<BFTD> yeah
<fijam> the progress can be tracked here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Documentation/Assignments
<fijam> we have some troubles with libs/entities and this is a showstopper
<fijam> otherwise it is quite easy to adapt ubuntu's documentation
<gpocentek> what should go in lib/entities?
<BFTD> assin me something
<BFTD> I'll work on desktopeffects
<BFTD> there's nothing in there!!
<fijam> yes. I've told Freddy and Jim there's nothing to be taken and that I see no point in working on several in parallel
<fijam> as for the entities Freddy is taking care of this
<fijam> he should've sorted it out already, though
<fijam> however, I suppose the documentation will be done on time.
<BFTD> yeah
<BFTD> we have what...7 weeks?
<fijam> more or less
<fijam> doable.
<BFTD> How does one add stuff to the documentation?
<fijam> well, you make a patch and send the commit to ubuntu-doc
<BFTD> ah
<fijam> you just might want to contact the person who is currently modifying the given section in order not to duplicate the work.
<BFTD> ok
<BFTD> who's freddy?
<fijam> Admiral_Chicago
<BFTD> ah
<BFTD> haha
<BFTD> ok
<BFTD> that makes it so much easier
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 15 Aug 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 16 Aug 20:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Aug 22:00 UTC: Forum Council meeting | 21 Aug 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-08-12
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
* johnc4510 we having a meeting?  LoCo teams?
<elkbuntu> Ok, who is here for the loco teams meeting?
<johnc4510> +1
<elkbuntu> anyone else?
<doctormo> hi
<elkbuntu> hi
<johnc4510> howdy
<BFTD> hi
<elkbuntu> BFTD, here for the loco meeting?
<boredandblogging> hello
<BFTD> oh no mine is later today
<BFTD> at 7
<elkbuntu> BFTD, this is for the general loco project, not team-specific
<BFTD> oh
<BFTD> well
<BFTD> no
<BFTD> I gotta go then
<elkbuntu> Ok then, any general issues (except the servers)?
<elkbuntu> hi effie_jayx
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  ;)
<effie_jayx> hi all
<elkbuntu> we only just started with: any general issues (except the servers)?
<elkbuntu> but nothing has been said yet, so you havent missed anything
<effie_jayx> great.. I am here for SFD mentoring :D
<johnc4510> i might note that US teams now has a forum page   http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=284
<elkbuntu> hi yann2
<yann2> hi - agenda?
<elkbuntu> yann2, so far only: any general issues (except the servers)?
<yann2> fr/de and a couple others are on their own, so np for now (finger crossed) :P
<elkbuntu> yep. you guys were fortunat
<yann2> else mmmmh let me think
<yann2> mmh nope, no big issues :)
<yann2> a couple of ideas maybe?
<elkbuntu> yann2, sure?
<yann2> we plan to do a "we advertise for you for free" for pc vendors who decide to sell ubuntu boxes
<yann2> so during the next 6 months every pc seller that agrees to certificate some of his pcs for ubuntu will get a huge ad on our website
<elkbuntu> yann2, we = ubuntu-fr?
<yann2> yup
<yann2> on a longer term, we hope to have a separate section on our website, linking all these sellers
<johnc4510> nice
<yann2> and maybe more, who know what can be possible - so to encourage them to help us
<yann2> like "we offer advertising, for you it costs nearly nothing - so.."
<yann2> we'll see if it works :] 
<elkbuntu> yep, sounds like a good idea
<effie_jayx> yann2,  I have a question
<yann2> yup?
<effie_jayx> do stores have the human resource to go ubuntu?
<yann2> yeah :)
<yann2> basically it means - put ubuntu on the box and test if everything works out of the box
<effie_jayx> yann2,  in my city. there are plenty of stores that are just not interested cuz they say they have no linux guru. and I have tried to convince on particular store to sell it and they say. they can suport it for lack of knowledge :S
<yann2> dell doesn't do any support afaik :)
<effie_jayx> yann2,  they don't?
<yann2> I don't think they do?
<effie_jayx> yann2,  it is a great initiative, and good that you have stores with you :D
<yann2> as far as i understood they propose an optional canonical support fee
<elkbuntu> nope, they resell canonical support ;)
<yann2> effie_jayx > we don't have any yet.. well maybe one
<yann2> we'll see
<yann2> if it does not work, too bad :P
<effie_jayx> yann2,  exactly
<elkbuntu> there's little harm in trying
<yann2> we may need to do a list of supported material to help them
<yann2> like pick among these, and its fine
<yann2> that would help some sellers i think
<yann2> eeeelse... well, our tshirts operation is going well... it was hell /o\ i am happy it is nearly done ^^
<elkbuntu> :)
<elkbuntu> was that the only idea yann2? should we move on now?
<yann2> do other locos have something to report? I would be happy to hear about it :)
<yann2> elkbuntu , yup, if there is an agenda, please, do :)
<elkbuntu> yann2, i think they just want us to entertain them ;)
<elkbuntu> yann2, the only other agenda is SFD discussion
<yann2> sfd?
<elkbuntu> yann2, software freedom day
<yann2> oh - i think we've always been quite bad with this one :)
<elkbuntu> hehe. no -fr participation in any french teams this year?
<yann2> we have a lot of events, but i can't remember of any action during the sfd
<yann2> but wait for november, i think olive is organising a huuuuuge ubuntu party in paris :P
<elkbuntu> yann2, softwarefreedomday.org (should be back up and ok, it was in the servers with the loco sites)
<yann2> btw i have a stupid question but... on the compromised servers, what about the usernames passwords? :S
<elkbuntu> my team still doesnt have a venue yet :-/ im not lucky like effie_jayx to have a university to use
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  :D
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  I am not getting goodies it seems...
<elkbuntu> :(
<effie_jayx> I did register before cutoff date
<yann2> I hope that in 2008 ubuntu-eu will have some money for goodies
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, yes, but the limit was 200 teams, which means some still missed out before the cutoff date
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  I thought that was for open cd's and extra tshirts
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  but heck . I am in it for more than a t-shirt ... right :D
<elkbuntu> yep :)
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  are talking SFD?
<effie_jayx> then...
<yann2> weird how quiet ubuntu loco meetings have become :)
<effie_jayx> I have som very specific questions... you might have answers for
<yann2> 2 years ago.. \o/ :D
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, sure
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  In my country... certificates are what people are after... can the team issue  certificates or a letter of attnedance?
<yann2> i wonder if no locoteam attending the loco meetings means, all the teams are happy, or nobody cares... the loco mailing list is a bit quiet too :(
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, i suppose so
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu, do you know of any other teams that have done so?... how does certificates by request sound.
* greg-g is kind of here.  I'm the leader of the Michigan Team (US).  No issues/questions right now.
* effie_jayx hates dealing with certificates...
<effie_jayx> hello greg-g
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, if you are holding 'intro to linux' classes on the day, it would work
<greg-g> hello effie_jayx
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu, you mean more academic like talks?
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, i mean like tutorials
<effie_jayx> there will be developer talks on a separate rooms... not to scare away the new people...
<effie_jayx> next question then...
<effie_jayx> food? finger food, sponsored ... is it ok to sell
<effie_jayx> ?
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, that kind of thing is different in each country
<effie_jayx> ok
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  and on the subject of talks I read . not too much filosophy involved. are there any presentations online that offer just enough where we can build upon?
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, um, dont know
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  but you know what I mean... ?
<effie_jayx> :S
* effie_jayx is kinda jerky asking the q's
<elkbuntu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Presentations?action=show&redirect=UbuntuPresentations
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  thanks
* nixternal wipes eyes and sees something loco going on
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu, once we are done with SFD i'll bring up another issue
* effie_jayx hopes he isn't naggin too much with q's
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, not at all
<elkbuntu> nixternal, any issues to raise or questions to ask?
<nixternal> not off hand...just woke up sorry :)
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  It turns out you registered _just_ after the registrations for schwag
<effie_jayx> closed, but before the notice went out. I will include you for shipping of
<effie_jayx> goods due as you were so close :)
<effie_jayx> :D
<effie_jayx> cool
<effie_jayx> then on to the issue I thought..
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, excellent luck
* effie_jayx looks for email
<highvoltage> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 14 Aug 15:00: Ubuntu Server Team meeting | 14 Aug 19:00: Technical Board | 15 Aug 20:00: Edubuntu | 16 Aug 20:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Aug 22:00: Forum Council meeting | 21 Aug 15:00: Kernel Team
<elkbuntu> Well, if nobody has any further issues or questions, i believe we shall call this a done deal and i can go sleeep :)
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  nevermind
<effie_jayx> can't find the email.
<elkbuntu> effie_jayx, thats ok. did you have anything else?
* effie_jayx hugs elkbuntu  for the great effort in putting together the meeting considering her local time
* elkbuntu hugs effie_jayx back.
<effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  gracias
<elkbuntu> everyone else seems to have gone anyway
<elkbuntu> no problemo, hermano
<effie_jayx> thanks everyone for listening
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-08-04
<kane> hi
<kane> Any support here
<kane> Is there a easier way to find the Ubuntu room
<Hobbsee> wow.
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> why would you go to a chan called -meeting and expect people?
<Hobbsee> or -devel....
<Hobbsee> in fact, he's gone to -devel first, has been told to read the topic, presumably has done so, then has tried here.
<Hobbsee> like i say...wow.
<Burgundavia> and he ain't in #ubuntu yet
<dthacker> @Chicago
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<ubottu> nixternal: Schedule for America/Chicago: 05 Aug 17:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 15:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 07 Aug 19:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 23:00: Ubuntu MOTU
<nixternal> ;)
<Raas|wtf> morning...
<Raas|wtf> im a windows user.. looking at kubuntu; any recommendations for/against?
<emgent> Raas|wtf: join #kubuntu
<emgent> ubuntu-meeting is not the right room. :)
<Raas|wtf> ah.. didn't see the -meeting my room list :)
<Hobbsee> neither is +1.
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-08-05
<Pretto> @now
<ubottu> Pretto: Current time in Etc/UTC: August 05 2008, 00:18:16 - Next meeting: Community Council in 21 hours 41 minutes
<pwnguin> @now Chicago
<pwnguin> @now CST
 * pwnguin reads harder
<bazhang> @schedule
<bazhang> ubottu is gone
<amachu> TheMuso, persia, elky , hi
<persia> amachu: Good afternoon
<TheMuso> amachu: Hey.
<elky> evening
<elky> who are we missing?
<persia> lifeless: zakame, Belutz
<elky> amachu, your internet was fine until you spoke!
<TheMuso> lol
<lifeless> hi
<amachu> lifeless, hi
<elky> right, is our contestant here? :Ã
<amachu> mdamt, hi
<mdamt> Hello all.
<amachu> welcome everyone!
<persia> mdamt: Good nick construction technique :)
<mdamt> persia: :-)
<amachu> so we have lifeless, elky, persia , TheMuso and amachu here?
<amachu> Belutz?
 * TheMuso is here.
<amachu> zakame?
<elky> he's not in the channel
<lifeless> sorry for missing last week
<lifeless> was jetlagged; week before was on a plane
<elky> he  is online though
<amachu> good, we have five among us
<amachu> we will start
<elky> mdamt, do you want to introduce yourself and what you do for Ubuntu? we can fill zakame in later if he comes
<amachu> elky, indeed
<amachu> mdamt, thats was a nice snap with babies :-)
<amachu> mdamt, there?
<mdamt> Right, so I am an Indonesian currently living in Helsinki Finland. Been in FOSS world since 1997. Been doing some work for Ubuntu Indonesia, administring the mailing list, also involved in BlankOn project as one of Ubuntu Indonesia project.
<elky> possibly typing
<mdamt> Mainly I work for upstream: GNOME and MAEMO which are used in Ubuntu and Ubuntu Mobile.
<mdamt> So I guess that's all.
<elky> mdamt, what ubuntu-specific stuff do you do?
<persia> For Ubuntu Membership, we tend to look at contributions specifically to Ubuntu.
<elky> zakame, will pastebin, second
<zakame> cool
<mdamt> For direcly Ubuntu project I also involved in Indonesian L10n in LP.
<elky> zakame, http://pastebin.com/mdf5e41d
<elky> mdamt, cool, how many strings have you translated (i hope this is correct translation terminology)
<zakame> got it, thanks elky
<mdamt> elky: I've never counted it. As many of the translations in LP also came from GNOME which I did with others.
<persia> LP claims 381 for 7 Karma points, but it may not be complete.
<elky> mdamt, so do you do all the admin for the mailing list?
<mdamt> Yes, I do the id-ubuntu mailing list administration (also with others).
<persia> mdamt: In your testimonials, I see comments about you being the driver behind BlankOn, and possibly planning work with Ubuntu Packaging: have you submitted any packaging work to Ubuntu so far?
<mdamt> Not yet. But I have some on my list already. Probably after my vacation ends.
<persia> mdamt: Did you bring a fan club to cheer for you at this meeting?
<mdamt> All of them are missing :-)
 * persia is done with questions
<amachu> Belutz had earlier recognized mdamt contributions, couple of weeks back when iang and mdamt were present
<elky> same. mdamt, i see you've done some good work, but im not personally seeing a substantial ubuntu-specific contribution yet. i'm giving a -1 here, and recommending you return after you've done some motu work
<amachu> on 22-July-08
<TheMuso> I agree with elky, but a +0 from me. You seem to be on the right track, but I think we need to see more from you in terms of sustained contributions.
<mdamt> Right.
<amachu> mdamt, remember I felt the same that day.
<elky> amachu, the key is ubuntu-specific. im not comfortable on making someone a member of ubuntu because of their work on a derivative, any more than a debian person would want me a member of debian for my ubuntu work.
<lifeless> +0, I concur with elky and themuso
<e-jat> +1 for mdamt
<lifeless> I think both upstream and downstream work are important - at at the project level we acknowledge that work
<persia> mdamt: I'm also going to vote +0.  Positive points for what looks like good work with Inonesian localisation, and previous comments from Belutz.  Negative points for not getting more upstream, and not having lots of Ubuntu-specific stuff.
<amachu> mdamt, would like to see more details in your wiki page, that shows references to contributions to Ubutu
<lifeless> but for individual ubuntu membership it needs to be ubuntu-specfic stuff that we are acknowledging
<zakame> +0: I see translations going way back to 2005, but I think mdamt can do more :)
<amachu> elky, I agree
<mdamt> Ok.
<amachu> mdamt, +0 from me too
<amachu> great to see your contributions upstreams.
<elky> consider this an encouragement to do more for ubuntu! :)
<amachu> please continue your good work, and hoping to see you back with a bang
<mdamt> :-) Thanks all.
<elky> we know you do good things!
<e-jat> good luck mdamt !
<elky> i think he's all we had, no?
<amachu> elky, ?
<elky> amachu, agenda-wise
<amachu> yes
<amachu> any thing to be shared
<amachu> from anyone?
<amachu> elky, persia, TheMuso, lifeless : ?
<TheMuso> Not from me.
<elky> probably encourage any countries not yet registered for Software Freedom Day to get registered and spread ubuntu on the most important free/libre open source software event of the year
<persia> I've a vague sense that we ought somehow be coordinating with LoCos to drive more agenda items, but am unlikely to actually do anything about it personally.
<elky> softwarefreedomday.org
<elky> persia, i just make up my own ;)
<amachu> elky, We plan to publish rms - Free Software Free Society on SFD
<amachu> elky, I will do it, thanks for citing
<amachu> persia, that gives me a vague idea too
<elky> amachu, cool. try not to scare the little kids with that ;)
<amachu> :-)
<amachu> they have Big Buck Bunny to watch
<amachu> ;)
<amachu> persia, but we need to..
<amachu> persia, but for that we have to be more than Membership Board. Isn't it?
<techno_freak> amachu, ta_IN("Free Software Free Society") ?
<persia> amachu: Certainly.  I've just been operating in two-weeks-behind mode for long enough that I'm getting leery of taking new tasks, even when I have an idea that makes me want to do something.
<elky> amachu, BBB is sooooo funny
<amachu> techno_freak, yes
<amachu> techno_freak, in Tamil
<elky> we had it playing rotation at an expo here in sydney, and half of us kept getting distracted watching it instead of talking to people
<techno_freak> amachu, kewl
<persia> I'm not sure it's "More than membership board" to occasionally bug the LoCos to try to get people to do more and become members.  If any of us individually go beyond that, that's the individual's decision.
<elky> persia, agree. we should keep an eye out for regionally-relevent things though
<elky> i should have been bugging people to submit for Linux Conf Au more, but I've been slack
<elky> CFP closes in 3 days
<amachu> persia, personally we are doing that. hoping to see atleast two in months to come
<persia> elky: Regionally relevant events, etc?
<elky> persia, conferences in the region
<elky> specifically ones which may have CFP where people can apply to talk about F/LOSS
<persia> elky: That makes sense.  I'm not sure it's strictly RMB, but there ought be some wiki pages towards which interested parties can point.  The presentations can then go on their wiki pages, and we can review them when the presenters apply for membership.
<elky> persia, i was thinking more for content sake. i'd love to hear more about the events that happen in the asia/oceania region. i generally only hear about them after they've happened, rarely before
<amachu> persia, that would be a good idea
<persia> elky: That too.  I'm just trying to stretch it to be RMB related :)
<elky> persia, it's giving people ideas to help them, so sort of what you were saying
 * elky thinks through the local-ish events happening/cfp'ing ...
<persia> elky: That makes sense.  Want to put up the Events wiki pages, broken regionally?
<elky> foss.in doesnt seem to have the 2009 page going yet
<techno_freak> elky, they are still planning the event, will be out soon
<elky> techno_freak, excellent
<techno_freak> s/they/we/
<elky> techno_freak, good to know :)
<techno_freak> :)
<techno_freak> elky, hope we can have you this year, we missed you last time :)
<elky> techno_freak, it's so close to another event for me, which is sad :(
<techno_freak> elky, ohh :(
<elky> which i've already been accepted to talk at too
<elky> we will see though, when the dates come out
<techno_freak> :)
<elky> do you know the dates?
<techno_freak> elky, sometime around end of Nov or early December, depends upon availability of venue
<elky> that part i knew. the conf i speak at is dec 3-5
<techno_freak> elky, oh, will ask and confirm you :)
<elky> persia, sorry missed your suggestion. a noticeboard wikipage would be good
<persia> elky: Thanks :)
<elky> people can add something they want us to mention
<amachu> elky, persia, is that all?
<elky> i believe so
<persia> I'm done.
<amachu> fine then, thank you every one for participating
<elky> i think TheMuso and lifeless have been stolen by shinier stuff already
<elky> +1 amachu :)
<amachu> mdamt, hoping to see you back
<elky> i trust we will
<amachu> thank you and this time i have got an un-interrupted connectivity after a long time :-)
<e-jat> long time ?
<persia> Well, at least the entire length of a meeting: first time I've seen that :)
<amachu> persia, yes.
<elky> amachu, lets hope you did not just jinx yourself!
<amachu> elky, ;)
<amachu> am leaving now, bye
<zakame> thanks ll
<zakame> *all
<MianoSM9> .
<kirkland> [o]
<Koon> o/
<sommer> hey all
<Koon> hey sommer !
<Koon> who else is here for the server team meeting ?
<pschulz01_> ping!
 * kirkland <---------  that guy
<Koon> OK, I'll do my best to replace the incredible mathiaz, who left for a hazardous trip accross Canada
<zul> hello
<Koon> ok, let's start !
<Koon> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:06. The chair is Koon.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jdstrand_> o/
<Koon> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<Koon> Previous meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080729
<Koon> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Koon> We have two recorded ACTIONs in last meeting
<Koon> kirkland to write a blog post about testing booting from a degraded raid array
<kirkland> Koon: I have a draft, I'll publish today
<Koon> kirkland: great !
<kirkland> Koon: I set up my own wordpress account, and linked it to planet.ubuntu, so i'll just push it there myself
<Koon> more server blogging, nice
<Koon> the second action is nijaba's, not sure he is around
<kirkland> Koon: I also have an Encrypted Private Dir blog post draft too
<kirkland> Koon: I was waiting for the latest merge to make it into the archive, as a couple of scripts changed names
<Koon> kirkland: ok.
<kirkland> Koon: that happened overnight
 * nijaba waves
<Koon> nijaba to write up a question related to hw and submit it for review to the rest of the server team
<Koon> nijaba: did you have the time to progress on that ?
<nijaba> Koon: I am still waiting for the input from Intel on the subject
<Koon> nijaba: ok
<Koon> nijaba: keep us posted !
<nijaba> I will :)
<Koon> Let's review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap...
<Koon> [TOPIC] Ubuntu VM builder
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu VM builder
<Koon> soren: around ?
<soren> Yes, I am now. Sorry.
<soren> I've stumbled a bit on a parted issue that I'm trying to get sorted out.
<soren> When that's fixed, I shall be very close indeed to having Xen support in VMBuilder as well as KVM.
<soren> Er..
<soren> I mean, KVM as well as Xen support in VMBuilder. Not Xen support in KVM.
<Koon> I seem to remember you wanted to write some very basic doc on how to get it / test it / run it
<soren> Yes, that stalled a bit since there were a few things that were a bit in flux. Those should be sorted out very shortly after I get the parted bug sorted out.
<Koon> OK, great!  We'll skip the specs assigned to mathiaz and go directly to...
<Koon> [TOPIC] Mail server improvements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mail server improvements
<Koon> ScottK is unfortunately not available but asked me to ask again for help on the MIRs
<Koon> If anyone is interested in seeing ClamAV and Spamassassin in main, it's a good time to step up
<jdstrand_> it occurred to me the other day that it would be really great if we could have a clamd and freshclam enforcing apparmor profile
<mianosm1> That would be in the main repository (suggested/requested at the moment)?
<Koon> jdstrand_: that sounds like a nice idea indeed
<jdstrand_> with clamav's security history, this would go quite a ways to mitigating its security concerns
<jdstrand_> as I may be one of the people reveiwing that bit, I may even require it :)
<Koon> mianosm1: yes, see https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/clamav-spamassassin-in-main
<jdstrand_> I just wrote one for myself the other day, so I'd be happy to help ScottK or whoever in that regard
<kirkland> I believe that we need an AV in Main
<Koon> jdstrand_: ok great.
<Koon> [TOPIC] Boot Support for Degraded RAID
<MootBot> New Topic:  Boot Support for Degraded RAID
<Koon> kirkland: we already talked a bit about it in the actions
<Koon> anything more ?
<kirkland> Koon: no additional progress....  I'm going to work on a grub patch this week
<Koon> kirkland: ok.
<Koon> [TOPIC] Encrypted ~/Private Directory in Each User's Home
<MootBot> New Topic:  Encrypted ~/Private Directory in Each User's Home
<kirkland> Koon: I will be publishing a blog post today calling for testers
<Koon> ok.
<kirkland> Koon: this item is ready for heavy duty testing
<kirkland> Koon: it has been promoted to main
<kirkland> Koon: and kees sponsored a merge yesterday, where I added a bunch of manpages
<kirkland> Koon: I'm ready for testers!
<Koon> me too, but we'll come to that in a moment ;)
<Koon> [TOPIC] Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS
<MootBot> New Topic:  Migrate new installs and upgrades of client and server packages to use SSL v3 or TLS
<Koon> is my favorite Ante here ?
<Koon> apparently not, let's move on
<Koon> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Manpage Repository
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Manpage Repository
<Koon> Dustin strikes again
<kirkland> Koon: good news on that front too...  Kees re-reviewed it again, and it fully passed his audit, full support from him on it.
<kirkland> Koon: I have an open RT with Canonical IS to take over hosting it
<kirkland> Koon: I set a loose deadline of end-of-month
<kirkland> Koon: elmo is on it.
<Koon> sounds great !
 * nijaba hopes elmo is quicker on this one than on the survey server...
<kirkland> :-/
<Koon> [TOPIC] Review ServerGuide for Intrepid
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ServerGuide for Intrepid
<Koon> sommer: ?
<sommer> finished the Kerberos section, and it's ready for review: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/kerberos.html
<sommer> I think that's the last of the big updates for intrepid :)
<Koon> ok, so you welcome reviewers now (as always)
<sommer> absolutely, the more the merrier
<Koon> that reminds me... I've a couple of likewise-open fixes to push to you
 * nealmcb suddenly remembers what time zone he's in....
<sommer> Koon: cool, just let me know
<Koon> nealmcb: \o/
<Koon> sommer: on the AD part. I will
<Koon> ok, that's all for the specs, I think, let me know if I forgot something
<Koon> [TOPIC] Call for likewise-open update testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Call for likewise-open update testing
<Koon> OK, so I've been working on likewise-open updates for Intrepid
<Koon> there is test branch up at Likewise with what should become the next version
<Koon> (>4.1.0)
<Koon> I've been packaging that, there is a lot of nice fixes
<Koon> but also potential for nice regressions ;)
<Koon> so we'll need some widespread testing before I can push that new version anywhere near main
<Koon> A very fresh version is currently building on my PPA
<nijaba> Koon: EtienneG is working on a WP on the subject, please feel free to feed him news and I am sure he would be a good tester :)
<Koon> https://launchpad.net/~tcarrez/+archive
<Koon> likewise-open - 4.1.0.2956-0ubuntu1~ppa2
<Koon> ivoks :o/
<ivoks> hi
<Koon> I've tested that domain join, leave, authentication works correctly, and I already patched two regressions
<Koon> I'm especially interested in regressions, since that version won't solve all existing bugs (even if it solves most of them)
<Koon> Anyone having been in contact with likewise-open in hardy and wanting to test in intrepid ?
<sommer> Koon: I should be able to give it a test this weekend
<sommer> if not sooner
<Koon> sommer: that's great !
<Koon> I'll do some more thorough testing on the very fresh ppa2 version tomorrow. Just take whatever is the freshest in my PPA at that time
<Koon> let's move on
<sommer> Koon: do you need the gui part tested as well as the cli?
<Koon> sommer: yes
<Koon> I found one regression on the GUI (a missing icon)
<jdstrand_> a
<Koon> not sure there is much more regression potential there... but one never knows
<Koon> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<Koon> macd sent an email to ubuntu-server ML asking for one more MOTU ack for NeilW's passenger package to progress onthe RubyOnRails spec
<Koon> whoever is MOTU, has some free time and interest in Ruby call help him
<Koon> s/call/can
<Koon> anyone else has a subject / item / beer to share with the group ?
<pschulz01> I would just like to thank you guys for all your efforts...
<sommer> Koon: have you tried creating a samba share after joining a domain with likewise?
<sommer> Koon: just wondering if we need a AD integration section in the samba chapter when likewise does such a good job?
<nealmcb> soren: At OSCON I went to a talk by nat friedmanon that demo'd SUSE's appliance building web site - very impressive....  but it was still in a closed alpha or beta   http://en.oreilly.com/oscon2008/public/schedule/detail/4727
<Koon> sommer: yes, with mixed results (I seem to remeber a superfluous password query)
<nijaba> nealmcb: yeah, I chatted with him and Guy Lunardi on the same subject. We are doing very similar stuff, except that they are not planning to release their web based source code AFAIK
<sommer> Koon: mmm... I was just wanting to make sure that permissions and stuff worked using AD users
<sommer> Koon: I'll do some more testing with your new package version, thanks
<Koon> sommer: there are a few important fixes, one of them is being able to remove likewise-open while a domain is joined without nuking your system
<Koon> one other is the service not starting after a reboot issue
<nijaba> nealmcb: moreover, their supported juice (not the openSuse one) requires an activation code on a per parter basis
<Koon> and the last one being a conflict with the current samba in intrepid
<nealmcb> nijaba: too bad.  mainly I was thinking the slides would be of interest and the feature set they target is worth considering
<nijaba> nealmcb: sure, they are. I did not get their slides, did you?
<nealmcb> they're liking kvm more and more also
<Koon> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<Koon> same place, same time, next week ?
<Koon> (mathiaz should be back!)
<ivoks> sure
<nealmcb> nijaba: I haven't seen them yet
 * nijaba will be in vacation next week
 * ivoks is at the vacation right now :)
<nealmcb> the slides should have been up on the web last week as I understand it
 * nealmcb is also vacationing
<Koon> my vacation starts next Wednesday so I should be there
<sommer> no fair :(
<nijaba> ivoks: I'll be in the mountains with no laptop/network access, not even gsm :(
<nealmcb> Irvine - classic sunny california
<Koon> Cassis - classic sunny French Riviera
<ivoks> nijaba: uff... french alps?
<nealmcb> and next week in Flagstaff AZ - and I'll be here....
 * nijaba will be in Yosemite if it has not burned before...
<Koon> Thanks all for coming !
<nealmcb> hmmm - oops - maybe not - somewhere in New Mexico....
<nijaba> ivoks: yosemite: california
 * nealmcb will ping nat for the slides
<nijaba> thanks nealmcb
<nijaba> thanks for hosting the meeting Koon
<nealmcb> nice job
<sommer> thanks Koon, later on all
<kirkland> thanks Koon
<ivoks> later all
<Koon> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:49.
<nealmcb> quick meeting!
<Koon> nealmcb: I like it quick ;)
<Koon> ...
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubottu> emgent: Schedule for Europe/Rome: 06 Aug 00:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 22:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 16:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 02:00: Americas Board | 08 Aug 06:00: Ubuntu MOTU
<Myrtti> @now Helsinki
<ubottu> Myrtti: Current time in Europe/Helsinki: August 05 2008, 21:52:25 - Next meeting: Community Council in 3 hours 7 minutes
<Seveas> @hug Myrtti
<Myrtti> meh.
<Myrtti> I got UTC and BST mixed up
<bazhang> @now Taipei
<ubottu> bazhang: Current time in Asia/Taipei: August 06 2008, 03:03:04 - Next meeting: Community Council in 2 hours 56 minutes
<Myrtti> bazhang: GO TO SLEEP
 * Myrtti pats bazhang's tush and points bed
<bazhang> too late Myrtti :)
<Myrtti> rockabye baaaby on a tree tooooopp
<bazhang> :)
<bazhang> oh wait is that sev?
<Seveas> Rinchen-sprint, "Sprintchen"?
<Rinchen-sprint> hehe that's me
 * bazhang waves to Seveas 
<nellery> @schedule Vancouver
<ubottu> nellery: Schedule for America/Vancouver: 05 Aug 15:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 13:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 05:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 07 Aug 17:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 21:00: Ubuntu MOTU
<Myrtti> meh.
<dennda> @schedule berlin
<ubottu> dennda: Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 06 Aug 00:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 22:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 16:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 02:00: Americas Board | 08 Aug 06:00: Ubuntu MOTU
<pwnguin> @schedule chicago
<ubottu> pwnguin: Schedule for America/Chicago: 05 Aug 17:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 15:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 07 Aug 19:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 23:00: Ubuntu MOTU
<Burgundavia> @schedule vancouver
<ubottu> Burgundavia: Schedule for America/Vancouver: 05 Aug 15:00: Community Council | 06 Aug 13:00: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 05:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 07 Aug 17:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 21:00: Ubuntu MOTU
<popey> moo
<Technoviking> super-moo
<Seveas> mootastic
<Technoviking> doing two meetings at once (one in RL, one in irc), may be distracted
<Seveas> @now
<ubottu> Seveas: Current time in Etc/UTC: August 05 2008, 21:04:00 - Next meeting: Community Council in 55 minutes
<Seveas> meeting is in an hour :)
<mdke> evening
<Technoviking> doh
<mdke> eh?
<sabdfl> evening all
<popey> it says 21:00 UTC on the wiki
<mdke> meeting is now
<mdke> popey: right
<Seveas> ah, fridge is off
<mdke> Seveas: when I looked at the fridge calendar earlier today, it was right
<sabdfl> who's present, do we have quorum?
<mdke> yeah, it's right - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1550
<Technoviking> here, kinda:)
<Seveas> bot's broken then
<mdke> elmo and Burgundavia are due, I think
<Technoviking> elmo just popped in and out
 * Burgundavia is here
<sabdfl> ok, then let's begin, elmo will have scrollback
<sabdfl> mdke: you're up
<mdke> sabdfl: I believe that the first two items were discussed at a past meeting, although i wasn't around
<sabdfl> ok, we're all agreed on your LP lists item
<sabdfl> i can raise the matter again with the LP developers
<mdke> I'm happy that doesn't need further discussion
<sabdfl> have you noticed an improvement since this was discussed publicly?
<sabdfl> i think encouraging unofficial lists to be on LP is sensible, because it will make it easier to migrate them to being "official" later
<mdke> sabdfl: I haven't been paying close attention; but I saw that LP lists are still being recommended around the place. I have been meaning for some time to followup on your email and discuss it with jorge/jono
<mdke> yes, agreed on the unofficial bit
<sabdfl> ok, i'll start a new thread
<sabdfl> could you turn this text into a more official statement from the CC, and put it on the mailing lists page?
<mdke> sabdfl: sure, let me follow up on your last email and we'll take it forward from there
<sabdfl> i'll start a new thread to shotgun and make sure we've got coverage of LP senior devs as well as ops
<mdke> :)
<mdke> what is the status of item 2 (Danish Team as legal entity)?
<mdke> that was also discussed in the past, I think
<sabdfl> it's waiting from a response from me
<sabdfl> i can't think of a good specific reason to say no, other than that it's not worked well in the past, elsewhere
<sabdfl> or rather, it has caused problems elsewhere, for Jane and others at Canonical
<sabdfl> because, when things go wrong, we feel obliged to step in and help
<Mez> just a quick interruption, the bot has been advertising the time of this for 11pm BST for some reason....
<mdke> I'm pretty sceptical about legal entities as well, myself. Probably comes of being a lawyer, but I think the variety of legal systems is always going to cause issues
<sabdfl> but, in this case, the guys seem to have worked through many of the issues
<sabdfl> indeed
<Myrtti> merh, where are we on the agenda?
<mdke> having said that, I think that without a strong central foundation for raising or distributing funds within the community, this sort of need will keep arising within local teams, it's going to be difficult to stop that
<popey> Myrtti: dk legal entity
<sabdfl> fundraising isn't the driver in this particular case
<Myrtti> mailing list issue went already?
<sabdfl> we do have the Ubuntu Foundation
<sabdfl> Myrtti: yes
<Burgundavia> does it exist as a legal entity?
<pwnguin> do we have the ubuntu foundation?
<Burgundavia> and is it a registered charity?
<Seveas> sabdfl, the fr/de verein is working well, isn't it?
<sabdfl> yes, in the Isle of Man
<sabdfl> Seveas: see my clarification
<mdke> sabdfl: but as I understand it, only as a trust, and not an active foundation in the same way as the Gnome foundation
<sabdfl> mdke: yes
<Burgundavia> what is the Wikimedia foundation doing for stuff like this? I know they have worked through a bunch of the cross border stuff
<Myrtti> hm, I seem to have bumped into at appropriate time
<sabdfl> what sorts of things would be handled in a foundation, that aren't handled by Canonical?
<Myrtti> we in Finland are having same thoughts
<pwnguin> sabdfl: nouveau?
<sabdfl> pwnguin: what about it, specifically?
<Myrtti> as a legal entity we'd be entitled to receive donations tax free
<sabdfl> Myrtti: yes, but it can also create as much in the way of trouble as opportunity
<Seveas> sabdfl, fundraising, sponsoring for hosting, sponsoring for releaseparties (in the ubuntu-nl case)
<Myrtti> sabdfl: I'm very aware of it - very, very very aware
<mdke> sabdfl: it would provide a way for non-Canonical provided funds to be allocated and distributed in a transparent way, and specific teams (local teams) might be able to fund raise for their own activities
<pwnguin> i spoke with a nouveau pledge drive guy, and he suggested that the money could have been useful but none of the non profits were able to help them for various reasons; this has changed some
<sabdfl> mdke: it's not transparent by legal registration
<popey> pwnguin: last i heard nouveau were awash with cash and needed developers more than money
<mdke> sabdfl: I know
<sabdfl> the transparency is a function of how well the specific individuals run the org
<pwnguin> popey: from who?
<sabdfl> and history suggests there's quite a wide std deviation in that regard!
<popey> i dont recall, sorry
<pwnguin> i spoke with marcheu in writing an article on the subject, and they seem to get by mainly without money
<ompaul> sabdfl, a set of guidelines on what is required to maintain the backing for the use of the name, something almost that would have an audit trail and be open to audit?
<sabdfl> nouveau is not really related to this discussion
<pwnguin> true
<sabdfl> ompaul: yes, i think that's what we concluded last time
<mdke> anyway, I don't really have a feel for whether if there was an active central foundation, that would solve the local teams' needs; we should probably start by asking them, if it's a genuine option
<sabdfl> that we would let this group use the ubuntu name if they reported regularly and transparently on their status
<sabdfl> and if they remained receptive to the CC
<Myrtti> luckily in Finland we already have Finnish Linux User Group as registered nonprofit
<Burgundavia> so should we encourage the loco teams to piggyback on other non-profits if possible?
<Myrtti> don't need to create a new one and also allows natural coworking with the people from other distro communities
<sabdfl> indeed
<mdke> Burgundavia: definitely, if that can solve the problem.
<sabdfl> i would be delighted to have a well-run org registered, with public accounts, AGM's, and diligent reporting
<mdke> possibly certain local teams feel that they can't get away without a locally registered entity. If that happens, and if we are clear that the reasons are right, and it's been done correctly, it's difficult to object
<Myrtti> we did a great project again last weekend at Assembly demoparty, though this year there wasn't that many people from other distros helping with helpdesking the Linux users among the 5000+ visitors
<sabdfl> Myrtti: cool - i've wanted to go to Assembly for a couple of years!
<Burgundavia> so if they want to use the name, they have to a be a registered charity? (strawman for discussion)
<sabdfl> anyhow - here's the guidance
<Myrtti> sabdfl: was planning to invite you to speak next year
<Myrtti> :-P
<sabdfl> if we have confidence in a loco team's standing, and they make a case for a legal entity, and we know who is on the hook, and they commit to regular transparent accounting and reporting to the CC, then +1
<Myrtti> (as you'd prolly bring cd's [we ran out of them on Thursday])
<sabdfl> i will ask Jono to maintain a list of the approved ones, and a schedule for their reporting
<sabdfl> and we will recall the right to the name if the reporting falls behind
<sabdfl> this has to stay rigorous, or we *know* it will turn into a mess
<Burgundavia> by reporting, we mean the legal reporting any charity has to do?
<mdke> I agree 100%
<mdke> sabdfl: checking the case for each team and so on is going to be time intensive; there are often teams which will think they need it, but actually don't. Perhaps the loco council can help us with those tasks
<mdke> maybe by providing an initial filter for applications
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> does jono run the loco council?
<popey> define run
<Burgundavia> should be document these bits anywhere so that we don't get spurious requests?
<sabdfl> popey: chairwoman?
<mdke> sabdfl: jono isn't on the loco council, afaik
<popey> he isn't
<sabdfl> ah
<sabdfl> then a second mail will be required, rather than tacking this onto the one i am already writing to jono :-)
<popey> we do seek advice from him on matters, he does give us some direction
<sabdfl> popey: ok, ok, i can take a hint
<sabdfl> i'll mail you then ;-)
<popey> bugger
<mdke> I think that Jono and the loco council can definitely provide a useful filter for such applications, if they are willing, and have the capacity
<sabdfl> popey: keeping track of the reporting is something that will be important to Canonical, because it's a trademark matter, i'm happy to delegate it to the Loco council if they are happy to commit to doing as rigorous a job there as they do elsewhere when firing on all cylinders
<sabdfl> fairy nuff?
<popey> feel free to fire it our way, but the other guys need to speak up too
<sabdfl> ok. will mail, let's mosey on in the agenda
<mdke> we'll see how it goes; if it is becoming a problem then we can easily modify the procedure
<popey> i have concerns, but I'll attack that via mail
<mdke> ok
<mdke> is cody here?
<boredandblogging> he is in -news, but not in here, I pinged him
<mdke> fabian?thanks
 * Mez pinged him too
<mdke> whoops
<mdke> hi cody-somerville, you're up
<cody-somerville> Hello
 * cody-somerville smiles.
<sabdfl> roll on cody-somerville
<sabdfl> sec
<sabdfl> is Acelin here for the interface item?
 * cody-somerville blames the bot for being late. (;] Mez)
<sabdfl> Salane?
<mdke> damn, sorry I didn't spot the interface item
<sabdfl> ok, w.r.t. the UI
<sabdfl> i've encouraged salane to work with kwwii
<sabdfl> who has a mandate to lead the artwork and styling
<sabdfl> we are building a usability and design team at Canonical
<sabdfl> and anybody who has a professional interest in this should definitely apply there
<sabdfl> as always, we will try to engage with the community as effectively as possible
<mdke> ok. it's not an issue for us, I don't think. If there are issues with the art team's procedures as suggested we need a bit more detail about it
<sabdfl> there was a discussion the other day about ensuring that there's at least one community-generated theme
<sabdfl> however
<sabdfl> historically, art collaboration has been near zero
<sabdfl> we see a lot of folks showing up with no context, and insisting that there will be no progress unless *their* theme ships
<pwnguin> the heron background was a collaboration, no?
<Mez> sabdfl, you should speak to seele about HCI/usability stuff - she does a great job in KDEland
<sabdfl> i don't know about heron, i think kwwii lead that
<sabdfl> Mez: that's quite different to art, though related of course
<pwnguin> a rather vocal critic of the art team direction gave a history of the backgroud; I can't say how accurate it is
<sabdfl> pwnguin: there are only vocal critics of the art team
<pwnguin> he
<Mez> I was referring to <sabdfl> we are building a usability and design team at Canonical
<sabdfl> ah, thanks Mez
<Mez> (slow at typing on here)
<sabdfl> i live in hope of a good leader emerging there, but have been unable to engineer that myself
<sabdfl> i think we will have to have a strong leader who is full time, and open to contributions
<sabdfl> so, for example, if we do 80% of the icons, be open to contributions of another 20%
<sabdfl> but having lots of people submit their own 10% just ain't progress
<sabdfl> any other commentary from the CC?
<mdke> not here
<sabdfl> going, going...
<Burgundavia> sounds good to me
<sabdfl> gone. Xubuntu, you're up
<cody-somerville> Back in March, we held the first of a series of meetings that have involved a wide diversity of interested parties from many different backgrounds and group.
<cody-somerville> The goal of these meetings have been to ultimately develop a document that describes a strategy for the Xubuntu project.
<cody-somerville> It was felt that such a document would enable Xubuntu to become a sustainable and healthy project.
<sabdfl> hmm... less preamble, sooner content for the win
<cody-somerville> I'm proud to say that I'm ready to share the fruit of that labour and ask for official recognition and ratification of the document by the Community Council.
<sabdfl> cody-somerville: what does Xfce4 upstream think of this?
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, They're very encouraged.
<sabdfl> i ask because it's very important to have the support of upstream, and preferably, have them actively participating
<sabdfl> even if compromises sometimes need to be made
<sabdfl> "Xubuntu is not specifically targeted to Xfce4 enthusiasts, as projects/software being hosted by the Xfce4 project or associating (officially or unofficially) with Xfce4 are not guaranteed inclusion in Xubuntu over other applications which may be a better fit for Xubuntu."
<sabdfl> this could put you at odds with them
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, We had several developers join us at our meetings.
<sabdfl> like, for example, shipping FF instead of epiphany gives some folks heartburn, which we actively work to alleviate
 * cody-somerville nods.
<sabdfl> i think being willing to compromise some if useful, but it's really important to have some buy-in upstream for that
<cody-somerville> At https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Intrepid/StrategyDocument#head-c7fb09a1a0ff5ac3d53e1f64a1bbd51aad7e20c1 we identify the core components that are considered the identity of Xubuntu
<cody-somerville> Those components are also the core components of the Xfce4 project.
<sabdfl> foci, there's a one-word contradiction for you ;-)
 * Myrtti shudders at seeing xfce4-terminal
<mdke> it's a long document, I don't feel able to fully do it justice now, but there are some big picture things we can talk about
<mdke> i think a close analysis will need a few days digesting it
 * cody-somerville nods.
<sabdfl> the profiles idea is nice, as a formal testing goal during the cycle
<mdke> I'm interested mainly in the governance aspect, given that we're the CC and the Xubuntu community needs to have some scope for determining its own goals
<mdke> I'd really like to see a Council evolving sooner rather than later
<sabdfl> agreed
<mdke> and I'd like to see its relationship with the CC more clearly defined, as we discussed privately cody-somerville
<sabdfl> also, we had a bad start with the irc council and xubuntu leaders apparently in conflict unnecessarily
<cody-somerville> Yes.
<sabdfl> i'd like some reassurance that sort of thing won't recur
<mdke> cody-somerville: do you envisage that the project leader would continue to exist as a role even after a Council is in place?
<mdke> deal with one topic at a time, sorry to cross over with sabdfl's question
<cody-somerville> I'd like to hear from the CC how they'd like to see the Xubuntu leadership interact with other governance bodies.
<sabdfl> imo, it does help to have a designated chair, or other sort of arbiter, in a project like this
<sabdfl> so i'm not opposed to that role, as long as it's part of the council
 * cody-somerville nods.
<mdke> sabdfl: it would be unique, I think - or do other Council's have such a role?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Community Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Aug 20:00 UTC: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU
<sabdfl> the CC would typically nominate folks to the project council
<sabdfl> Ryan Troy was the first chair of the Forums Council, Seveas the first of the IRC council, iirc
 * cody-somerville nods.
<Seveas> (IRC council is currently without chair afaik)
<Mez> sabdfl, though the IRCC has no lead atm)
<sabdfl> yes
<Mez> (though we are sorting out nominations for new people on the IRCC to fill up now-vacant spots)
<mdke> cody-somerville: well, from my point of view, the Xubuntu Council would be treated the same way as other team councils that exist, described on CommunityCouncil/Delegation
<sabdfl> i see no reason for it to be done differently
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, mdke: Agreed.
<mdke> if issues cannot be resolved by the team council, they can be delegated to us as usual
<sabdfl> i think the doc is well constructed, though it needs a bit of an editorial pass for style
<mdke> ditto if an inter-team issue arises, as with the recent irc issue (although as sabdfl said, better if such issues don't arise at all)
<mdke> s/delegated/escalated
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> Thus far Xubuntu has been more autonomous then say Kubuntu. Is it preferred for Xubuntu to be more closely tied in?
<mdke> Kubuntu is pretty autonomous
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> Okay.
<mdke> from a governance point of view, anyway, we haven't really intervened at all
<mdke> at least since I've been on the CC
<sabdfl> it's nice to see the proposed community structure
<sabdfl> good work, cody-somerville
<sabdfl> and team
<mdke> yes, good job
<mdke> if the document can be made a bit shorter, that would be good
<sabdfl> says very clearly how things are to be organised
<cody-somerville> :]
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, thank you
<mdke> a small point, when you say "this team is owned by the Xubuntu Council", you might say "this team reports to the Xubuntu Council" (i understand that you're referring to the LP team structure, but it sounds a little autocratic)
<cody-somerville> <g>
<mdke> where do we go from here? can we deal with the detail of the document and/or points of style by email?
<sabdfl> some of the code of conduct stuff isn't needed, it's inherited from Ubuntu
<cody-somerville> Okay.
<mdke> any questions from Burgundavia, Technoviking and elmo?
<Technoviking> mdke none here, look good to me with the comments made
<sabdfl> cody-somerville: this is a very good start. i would strip out pieces that are inherited from Ubuntu, like the CoC guidance (you can say that this project is as much subject to the CoC as any other in ubuntu)
 * cody-somerville nods.
<sabdfl> i would also reiterate the importance of upstream support
 * cody-somerville nods.
<sabdfl> would be disappointed to hear that upstream wasn't consulted on a major component decision, for example, and was upset
<cody-somerville> sabdfl, Agreed.
<sabdfl> the pieces that talk about upstream relations, bug tracking etc are excellent
<Burgundavia> not from me
<sabdfl> +1 from me
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: not? or none?
<Burgundavia> +1 from me
<Technoviking> +1 here
<elmo> sorry, I came in late due to /topic ambush, I'll have to abstain till I can catch up
<sabdfl> ok, Planet
<Burgundavia> ah, Planet
 * cody-somerville has a question.
<sabdfl> are magicfab and/or \sh here?
<sabdfl> cody-somerville: go ahead?
<Mez> \sh doesnt seem to be
<mdke> before we start planet I should point out that as far as policy questions go we have an approved policy document, so probably we can leave big picture issues about "what is planet for?" aside and concentrate on the specific issue
<cody-somerville> Just to clarify, the CC would like me to bring the document back for a second confirmation after making edits based on the suggestions given above?
<mdke> (ref - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntuEditorialPolicy)
<mdke> cody-somerville: I think we can do it by email, that gives us more time to digest it carefully; subject to what others think
<LaserJock> mdke: just a quick question, that text is not on Planet Ubuntu, is that spec not implemented?
<pwnguin> I believe magicfab is at a conference and cannot make it today
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, that's correct. I have an rt open about it though so it will be implemented in due course
<LaserJock> mdke: ah, ok. thanks for that clarification
<Mez> to me it seems like the original issue was over the "wtf" in the title?
<mdke> Mez: I think it is the reference to masturbation in the blog text
<mdke> although I'm not 100% sure about what that actually means
<pwnguin> from what ive gathered its about both
<Mez> mdke, me either re-reading it...
<mdke> in the absence of Fabian / Stephan, should we discuss the specific complaint or postpone that until they can attend?
<Mez> I didnt sot that before
<mdke> there is a general issue we could discuss - to whom should complaints about specific posts on Planet be directed?
<mdke> they are rare enough that I'd say the CC is probably the appropriate place, what do others think?
<pwnguin> i think if CC is willing to play dispute resolution we'll be better off for it
<Technoviking> mdke: I say the CC, this is only the second time in over a year
<Burgundavia> I don't see the need for anything else at the current moment
<sabdfl> i'm trying to decide if my dislike of the post is personal, or professional
<mdke> sabdfl: rofl
<mdke> Technoviking: nod
<pwnguin> but there's some sort of failure here if neither party attends
<mdke> pwnguin: complaints can be discussed by email if necessary
<Mez> The thing is here, is that I personally hear a lot of complaints regarding the "family friendly" part of the IRC Guidelines.
<Technoviking> sabdfl: agree, I'm not offend by it personally, but it is not the image of Ubuntu I want to project
<popey> maybe the planet should have digg-style buttons so people can voice their opinion easily without typing reply blogs fully of vitriol :)
<Mez> This is the same thing really.. and a judgement here... sets a precedent
<Technoviking> popey: Digg = Fail
<LaserJock> would it help if the CC did ratify a Planet Code of Conduct?
<popey> Technoviking: it was a joke :)
<LaserJock> the CoC is helpful in general, but perhaps a version specifically targeted to Planet would be useful
<pwnguin> what would it say?
<mdke> LaserJock: I think the regular code of conduct deals with it ok; I'm reluctant to have too many documents like that around
<Burgundavia> much like the forums specific one?
<mdke> the CoC's power is in its simplicity
<Mez> mdke, there is a LOT of wiggle room in the CoC though
<pwnguin> good
<Flannel> Mez: that's not necessarily a bad thing.
<mdke> Mez: that's intentional
<Technoviking> popey: I know:)
<popey> ah, thought the humor sensor was on the blink :)
<LaserJock> sure, but in areas where there are particular issues, perhaps the wriggle room needs clarity
<mdke> but the planet policy document kinda deals with these issues, I think
<LaserJock> mdke: indeed
<mdke> like the bit which sabdfl wrote about "By and large, we take a "liberal Western" view of matters moral. That means we don't blush too much when sex is discussed, though we prefer to keep it practical, to keep personal preferences private, and never to criticize or belittle others on gender or sexuality grounds."
<Mez> mdke, except when it comes down to making a judgement in respect to something like this... if you're in the wiggle room, then any judgement is going to cause issues with people disagreeing...
<LaserJock> it seems to me that the problem is generally people having different expectations of Planet
<Mez> but then, I guess this is where ompaul comes in and tells me I think too black and white
<popey> LaserJock: and different uses for it
<popey> "I use it for news gathering". "I use it to see behind the developers", "I use it to waste 10 mins at work"
<Myrtti> "you're too pin
<Mez> LaserJock, indeed... I see the planet as an insight to the developers, they have interesting blogs... If I want news, I use the fridge.
<Flannel> Mez: those people would already be up in arms if it were laid out in writing.  And each 'wiggle room' incident's verdict depends a lot on the specifics of the situation.
<mdke> LaserJock: the policy document deals with that; but I think Fabian and /sh just have a different view on appropriate content, rather than topic
<Myrtti> ^H^H^H^Hblack and white"
<LaserJock> I've generally been lately encouraging people to use Fridge for news and Planet for "the window into Ubuntu member's world" which you may occasionally be offended by
<sabdfl> \sh was clearly talking about masturbation, and not in a particularly practical sense either
<sabdfl> then, he insisted not to be
<sabdfl> but the inference is clear
<Mez> LaserJock, that leaves something out...
<Mez> LaserJock, the documentation of progress, status updates etc.
<sabdfl> i think that's unacceptable
<LaserJock> Mez: I think those are included
<Mez> It's not news, it's not "personal"...
<pwnguin> my only complaint is this interpretation that "WTF" in text and urls is disrespectful. the content part only arose after I asked about it =/
<persia> Only about a quarter of those eligible to post on planet are developers: having too much of a development-centric view may be misleading anyway, regardless of public perception.
<LaserJock> Mez: if it's personal stuff = Planet, if it's team/announcement stuff = Fridge
<emmajane> mdke I've been trying to find the planet guidelines but have failed. URL, please?
<popey> if WTF is complaint-worthy then so is RTFM
<Mez> LaserJock, I thik that theres a lot of people who want to see the technical side and none of the "personal" stuff... and some who want to see it the other way
<LaserJock> Mez: by personal I'm not saying non-technical
<mdke> emmajane: i think you came in after I posted it - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlanetUbuntuEditorialPolicy
<Myrtti> RTFM is even more complaint-worthy
<sabdfl> i have no problem with WTF, it's a pretty standard interjection, as is RTFM
<LaserJock> Mez: I'm saying, non-official statements, etc. Just individual Ubuntu people talking about what they're doing
<mdke> yes, I agree with sabdfl about the specific post
<popey> exactly, neither is particularly offensive if not directed at the individual
<sabdfl> LaserJock: i agree, Planet is informal
<pwnguin> well, RTFM is a bit disrespectful to the person presumably asking a question
<mdke> the second post is not particularly constructive either
<boredandblogging> the planet still isn't a good place to post about updates, it rolls off in a day
<Myrtti> I've got personal issues with RTFM - RTFM is the thing that drove me away from Linux for three years before I found Ubuntu
<Flannel> pwnguin: We don't allow RTFM in IRC because of it.
<sabdfl> pwnguin: except that it's become standard... Read the Fine Manual ;-)
<Mez> LaserJock, I know - but - theres also people who see planet as "what the peope behind ubuntu are doing for ubuntu" kinda thing... an "ubuntu planet" rather than a "ubuntu members planet" - does that make sense?
<pwnguin> sabdfl: apparently the IRC council disagrees ;=)
<popey> gah, i meant RTFM as in used as a piece of text, not as in "directed at someone"
<LaserJock> Mez: and that's ok, if it's personal
<Flannel> pwnguin: but, RTFM is directly insulting to the questioner, "WTF" or other things like that aren't insults usually.
<mdke> Mez: and that is fine
<Myrtti> everyone using that acronym on my watch is seriously in danger of being poked with a Pink Fluffy Pen of Pokingâ¢
<ompaul> normally use of rtfm would get you  ubottu> Acronyms or statements like  noob, jfgi, stfu or rtfm are not welcome in this channel. Period.
<LaserJock> but if people want to know about official announcements, team-related material, I think Fridge is more appropriate
<mdke> LaserJock: there is no rule that news cannot be posted to Planet; it's a resource that people read. However people shouldn't expect it to be a news resource only; it's a big pot of what Ubuntu members want to blog about
<sabdfl> Myrtti: he, i need a ï»¿Pink Fluffy Pen of Pokingâ¢
<LaserJock> which takes away some of the expectation that Planet should be "professional"
<Technoviking> I feel people need to consider two things when feeding blogs post to the Planet 1. Does it interest the audience who read the Planet. 2. Does it represent Ubuntu/Ubuntu Community in a positive (even when it is a negative comment)
<sabdfl> LaserJock: +1 that Planet is informal by design, and should stay that way
<pwnguin> professional means "do not read". look how many people read "Risks Digest" versus "DailyWTF"
<sabdfl> but i think it's also reasonable to filter things that are totally unrelated to Ubuntu or FLOSS
<popey> ompaul: i mentioned RTFM _not_ directed at the individual, merely as an example of another acronym which as FSCK in it, and it is used often - often _NOT_ directed at people
<Technoviking> s/positive/positive way
<Mez> sabdfl, really?
<mdke> Technoviking: I think that is a little bit too restrictive. People should be able to blog about whatever they wish, as long as it is compatible with the guidelines and common sense
<ompaul> popey, yeap, I understood
<ompaul> popey, I did prefix my comment, it is always about context
<mdke> sabdfl: I disagree
<mdke> (with the last bit)
<Mez> sabdfl, to me, seeing <forgotten names> posts about how he's been fighting his illness etc etc...
<Mez> that wouldnt be FLOSS/Ubuntu related.
<Mez> but I want to see that...
<sabdfl> i would say that the majority of a contributors posts should be Ubuntu or aligned, and the exceptions should not be offensive
<emmajane> I think it might be nice to have more on what is appropriate in teh guidelines. I quite like the Flickr guidelines where people are encouraged to self-moderate. http://flickr.com/guidelines.gne
<mdke> I tend to read with interest posts about member's non-Ubuntu related activities
<mdke> sabdfl: nothing should be offensive, sure
<pwnguin> mdke: given the number of people aggregated in planet ubuntu, its a bit nessecary to filter somewhere =(
<popey> agreed mdke
<popey> pwnguin: in the head of the reader?
<pwnguin> or with a grep filter
<mdke> emmajane: those are interesting, thanks
<popey> nobody is forcing anyone to read it
<sabdfl> mdke: what do you think about a case where a good contributor (say, a translator) never blogs about his ubuntu work, but blogs about stuff he writing on Windows?
<sabdfl> i.e. where the majority of his posts would be jarring
<Mez> mdke, same here... I think that they break it up nicely... having just tech etc is annoying, i want to know more about what makes these people who they are. Not just what they're woring on...
<LaserJock> popey: that's not exactly true
<Burgundavia> sabdfl: I think stuff like that really depends on volume
<mdke> sabdfl: I think that's acceptable, and personally would find it interesting. I don't think it jars at all. Planet is a blog aggregator, not a community news or discussion site
<popey> LaserJock: a bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver
<Burgundavia> if they are posting every day about that, then a friendly email/comment asking them to slow them down would be nice
<LaserJock> people are somewhat "forced" to read material on Planet
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: i agree, and the volume is more acceptable if it's a small portion of a larger flow of aligned material
<popey> LaserJock: gun to head?
<mdke> when we start regulating topic on planet, it's a slippery slope, I fear
<elmo> popey: I think that might be against the CoC
<LaserJock> popey: no, but content *is* right there
<sabdfl> mdke: i think blog aggregator is a term lost on most of the people who read planet :-)
<sabdfl> i think most people just think it's a news site
<popey> elmo: you'd love it tho :)
<pwnguin> do we have any stats on rss versus page views?
<Mez> sabdfl, and if it was floss related/ubutu related only, you'd have to delete half of Jono's blogs (which are normally a darn fine read!)
<mdke> I prefer to see planet as a place where Ubuntu members share their blogs, and only intervene where content is inconsistent with the code of conduct
<LaserJock> popey: if I'm scanning Planet and somebody has some grossly offensive picture for instance, I'm not sure you can claim that the reader isn't being forced to see that
<mdke> rather than try and guide its subject matter
<Burgundavia> does our planet support what planet gnome does, where you can use css to turn off spefici people?
<popey> LaserJock: sure, but that's already covered by the planet guidelines
<popey> Burgundavia: do you get to turn people on too?
<popey> sorry
<LaserJock> popey: well, only somewhat
<Myrtti> LOL
<elmo> page views appear to be ~3%
<emmajane> Burgundavia: nicer to encourage good behaviour rather than to have to know fancy things to mod "bad" behaviour out...
<Burgundavia> popey: really popey, I thought we were keeping that private
<sabdfl> easy in CSS, popey ;-)
<elmo> vs. RSS
<elmo> (emphasis on the ~)
<Myrtti> "whisper SQL to me, baby" *cough*
<LaserJock> elmo: wow, that's quite a bit smaller than I would have thought
 * Myrtti hides under her bed
<sabdfl> SELECT leather FROM wardrobe ;-)
<Flannel> Burgundavia: No, It doesn't appear that's possible currently.  No unique classes in the posts.
<emmajane> ahem.
<popey> hehe
<sabdfl> we're drifting, here
<mdke> alright, I'm going to have to retire shortly
<Burgundavia> might that be possible to turn on?
<Flannel> Burgundavia: It sounds like a good idea.
<Flannel> And certainly would allow people to ignore certain posters
<popey> someone needs to write a meta-planet which frontends the rss feed and allows you to tick/untick people
<mdke> to be honest, it's so easy to skip over posts that don't interest you that it's not a massively important feature, I think
<pwnguin> i kinda did
<elmo> popey: people have for Debian/gnome
<popey> ooo
<elmo> but I don't think that helps the 'bad reflection' on Ubuntu aspect
<Myrtti> I don't even read planet from planet.ubuntu.com
<Flannel> pwnguin: It'll be easy enough (I think, I haven't seen the planet code) to just add a class to the posts, unique to each poster.
<emmajane> Would it also be possible to put a link to the guidelines directly from planet.ubuntu.com?
<Flannel> er, popey ^
<elmo> anyway, what, if anything do we want to do about this specific incident
<elmo> emmajane: yes, we're going to do that
<mdke> emmajane: yes, that's part of the spec
<Myrtti> I've grabbed the OPML to my rssowl
<sabdfl> elmo: who can edit the Planet page?
<pwnguin> elmo: move the conflict resolution to email I say. the affected parties need to at least know whats going on
<sabdfl> we need to add the editorial policy there, which says we can remove content
<mdke> elmo: let's raise it with \sh. It's difficult to discuss without reference to him
<mdke> or rather, in his absence
<sabdfl> i would personally like to see a guideline that says that posts should predominantly be about ubuntu
<sabdfl> but i don't hear resounding support for that
<emmajane> +1 for outlining what is desired content.
<elmo> sabdfl: right now SAs, I'm working with mdke to expand that (with suitable oversight/review)
<popey> so long is it is "predominantly" or "mostly" and not "entirely" I agree
<Burgundavia> I would agree with that
<LaserJock> me too
<Flannel> I could support that in a guideline
<mdke> that would be too limiting for me
<Mez> mdke, myself also
<sabdfl> CC, how do you feel about a "general emphasis on Ubuntu and FLOSS related content", with an explicit permission about life stuff to quell the regular "off topic" accusations
<Myrtti> ubuntu? what about FLOSS in general?
<popey> and as you say, _all_ posts (whether ubuntu centric or not) should comply with the planet guidelines
<Daviey> I would hate to see people slated for not posting about Ubuntu.. if I can see that their content is otherwise interesting - and they are a known perosn - which by definition of membership they should be
<elmo> sabdfl: do we have a regular off topic problem?
<sabdfl> folks, i'm trying to narrow down to hear the views of the CC, we've had an open discussion already, now we need to get a decision
<popey> can you add an extra clause "no posts about deal metal"?
<popey> gah
<popey> s/deal/death
<sabdfl> elmo: i think we have consensus that *some* offtopic material is acceptable, even encouraged
<Mez> popey, noel edmunds has a band?
<Myrtti> popey: naughty
<sabdfl> and often we have folks asking why a post was offtopic
<mdke> -1 from me. It's inconsistent with my view of what a planet should be, and I see it as causing a slippery slope towards complaints of "off-topic" on particular blogs
<elmo> we already have "Subscribed feeds ought to be at least occasionally relevant to Ubuntu", in PlanetUbuntu, FWIW
<sabdfl> mdke: by my way of thinking, no single post would be offtopic
<Mez> elmo, that sounds fine to em ;)
<LaserJock> I kinda hate to say it, but with the exception of \sh have we even had other problems like this?
<sabdfl> but a feed which contains a generally low ubuntu signal to other material, would raise questions
<Mez> sabdfl, freedom of speech?
 * nealmcb likes "FLOSS in general" - encouraging cross-fertilization 
<Mez> sabdfl, is there actually a problem about off-topicness in general?
<Burgundavia> Mez: ENOTDEMOCRACY
<pwnguin> LaserJock: there was the time fabian leaked canonical secrets, but not really related
<sabdfl> Mez: it's a big web, you don't need to write everywhere to have freedom
<Mez> sabdfl, but if my blog is aggregated, It restricts what I can write on my blog...
<mdke> Burgundavia: you can have freedom of speech in non-democracies :p
<mdke> sabdfl: yeah, I understand, I just think that going down that route would cause more complaints about off topic than we get now, and the current ones would be addressed by the spec anyway.
<elmo> Mez: that's not true, any decent blog has tags
<popey> Mez: categorise it
<Technoviking> Mez: only feed part of your blog,
<mdke> sabdfl: but my main objection is that I don't think a planet should be restricted except by the CoC and general common sense
<mdke> anyway, I'm happy to be overruled :)
<Flannel> Technoviking: That's not feasible for all blog software apparently.
<Burgundavia> mdke: yes, but the compliant would be about censoring
<Mez> that would depend on my writing it if I was using my own blog software ;) (and screws over livejournal I believe!)
<Burgundavia> and advogato
<pwnguin> livejournal has tagging filters
<pwnguin> i use it
<Mez> pwnguin, ah, well, It didnt when I used to use it ;)
<elmo> anyway, I'm +0 on sabdfl's proposed 'ubuntu, floss + life'.  I'm not sure it would solve any of the actual escalated problems, or that it wouldn't make off-topic discussions more frequent
<elmo> but like mdke, happy to be overruled
<sabdfl> mdke: can you give me an example where general common sense would suggest lifting an article?
 * Mez can
<ogra> LaserJock, and in \sh's case i wouldnt even say the blog posts are the actual prob but hs kind of overreacting to critics and then misbehaving way worse that the actual thing deserves ... i personally dont see a big prob in the first article
<mdke> sabdfl: yes, an article which is personally offensive, deals with unacceptable subject matter or is unnecessarily provocative; or otherwise offends the CoC :)
<ogra> but the second is definately bad
<LaserJock> ogra: mhm
<LaserJock> the problem is that common sense isn't universal sense :-)
<ogra> heh, yeah
 * sabdfl worries about scaling planet, as ubuntumembers grows, and as more people blog about more stuff
<sabdfl> ogra: good point
 * Myrtti points at nicu's post on fedora planet
<popey> are there many larger planets out there? how do they do it?
<mdke> sabdfl: I see that, but we can perhaps deal with a problem if it arises
<Flannel> sabdfl: We'll deal with that when we get there.  Right now its still managable
<pwnguin> Myrtti: but that's already disrespectful
<LaserJock> sabdfl: it is getting more difficult, stuff scrolls of pretty fast
<LaserJock> one distinguishing factor I've seen, in general
<sabdfl> ok. does any other member of the CC feel that \sh's initial post was outside the boundaries of acceptability for planet?
<popey> I'm pretty sure \sh's post would have disappeared and been forgotten if it hadn't been for fab bring it up in quite such a public way
<LaserJock> is that Planet Ubuntu is a lot more non-developer
<LaserJock> which may lead to more posts and perhaps more non-technical post
<sabdfl> popey: but i suspect it did detract from the vibe many have
<mdke> sabdfl: yes, a bit outside the boundaries for me
<Technoviking> I feel it not it was out of bounds
<popey> sabdfl: agreed, for a very short time
<elmo> Technoviking: -eparse
<Mez> developers.planet.ubuntu.com and members.planet.ubuntu.com?
<Technoviking> ack it was out of bounds
<mdke> LaserJock: I don't think Planet Gnome is less technical, or less frequently posted to
<popey> mez.mars.planet.ubuntu.com
<mdke> Mez: ugh
<sabdfl> elmo?
<emgent> hahha
<emgent> :)
<Mez> tech bit in one, personal in other... conglomerate in p.u.c :P
<LaserJock> mdke: no? I do, but maybe it's just me
<Technoviking> sorry about that
<elmo> hmm, I don't like the posting
<Mez> mdke, the subdomain acts as a a filter to p.u.c, rather than a seperate planet if you get my drift?
<Myrtti> I'd settle for an asteroid
 * elmo runs to read the CoC quickly
<mdke> LaserJock: (that should have read "more technical, or less frequently")
<ogra> i dont like it either but i dont think it was actually out of bounds ...
<elmo> sabdfl: yeah, ok, out of bounds for me
<ogra> it was a bad sense of humor
<sabdfl> put it this way. i would love people to feel that all things ubuntu are well articulated, and respectfully done, even when they are satirical
<sabdfl> this was not
<Flannel> Mez: I'd rather just see the ability to filter clientside with CSS as per Burgundavia
<mdke> sabdfl: *nod*
<ogra> sabdfl, ++
<sabdfl> i feel let down when i see this sort of thing, and i think it's quite ok for us to say so
<sabdfl> i don't see how we could expect it to improve, if we said nothing
<ogra> definately true
<LaserJock> sabdfl: but what "teeth" does the CC have?
<Burgundavia> we can remove somebody from planet
<sabdfl> LaserJock: we have them, all the better to smile with
<mdke> LaserJock: a full set!
<ogra> Burgundavia, which would get people into cheering "censorship !!!"
<Burgundavia> we could also talk about doing suspensions
<LaserJock> well, but what I'm saying is, is this a "technical solutions to social issues" problem?
<sabdfl> but this would not be so much about biting, as inspiring
<popey> or "hurrah!" ogra
 * ogra would hope we can do better than just flipping a switch
<Burgundavia> essentially: removed for a certain amount of time until you have shown you can post and follow the CC
<Burgundavia> CoC rather
<sabdfl> elmo?
<mdke> LaserJock: to be honest, I'd be disappointed if teeth were necessary, I suspect that talking to \sh will resolve the issue
<LaserJock> does the CC actually have to take action, or can it just say that it's unhappy with posts
<ogra> mdke, ++
<LaserJock> mdke: me too
<sabdfl> LaserJock: the latter, in this case, would i think be sufficient
<Flannel> \sh thinks this is an overrreaction by magicfab, and seems to believe he is in line with the CoC, a simple mention that that's not true may suffice.
<mdke> sanctions are very rarely imposed in this community, happily
<LaserJock> agreed
<pwnguin> if the CC were to remove or suspend sh, I'd hope it would be for his reply rather than the initial post. the CoC is nothing if it doesn't guide us on our worst days
<sabdfl> Flannel: he also felt it necessary to be quite dishonest about what he was saying, in order to try to be inside the line, when challenged
<sabdfl> he said he wasn't talking about masturbation, when clearly he was
<Flannel> sabdfl: Thats true, and in some regards I think his response was a lot more telling than anything else.
<ogra> Flannel, but he also has to learn that overreactions shouldnt be answered with even worse overreactions
<sabdfl> so i think he knows he was out of line
<elmo>  sabdfl: err, I'm +1 on what you're saying - or are you asking me something more specific? :)
<sabdfl> elmo: just wondered if you found what you were looking for in the CoC ;-)
<mdke> do you guys not have it on the wall above your computers?
<elmo> 23:46 < elmo> sabdfl: yeah, ok, out of bounds for me
<sabdfl> ah, you said above, i missed it
<sabdfl> sorry
<sabdfl> ok
<elmo> mdke: yeah, but only at work
 * mdke hurriedly takes his down
<sabdfl> that's a consensus, as i see it
<pwnguin> heh, maybe the canonical store can sell framed versions
<sabdfl> separately, i think ogra has a very good point
<mdke> yes
<elmo> pwnguin: or signed ones.  we could get sabdfl a signing machine like POTUS has!
<elmo> *ahem*
 * LaserJock thinks everybody just needs a hug ;-)
<LaserJock> where's dholbach?
<ogra> \sh has a sad history of that kind of overreaction and he knows about it
<ogra> so pointing him t that will surely move more than shutting him down (temporary or longterm)
<popey> (again)
<elmo> ogra: eh, so what do you suggest?
<sabdfl> when critiqued, is almost the most important time to raise the quality of discourse
<ogra> talk to him about the second post, he knows the first wasnt right, but he also knows he tends to overreact
<sabdfl> LaserJock: nobody is trying to hurt or cause offense, and we find the whole community gets stronger when we figure out what we won't accept
<mdke> I have to go now, thanks for the very productive meeting everyone
<pwnguin> an alternative might be to offer some editorial advice prior to posting. kuro5hin had a neat collaborative editing feature
<sabdfl> and we all think the folks concerned here are good members of the community
<sabdfl> hmm...
<sabdfl> we are out of time, i think
<Burgundavia> another option would be supervision
<Burgundavia> essentially, ask a poster to get somebody else to look over any post before it goes live
<sabdfl> given that we have consensus on the first post, i'll write to \sh
<sabdfl> privately, cc the CC
<sabdfl> Burgundavia: "knowing that you don't intend to cause offense, it might be worth..."
<sabdfl> yes, can do that
<sabdfl> let's wrap it up now, unless there are any emergencies
<sabdfl> we're through the agenda
<sabdfl> any other business?
<sabdfl> going... going...
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> oh wait, there is no food in my house. Does that count?
<sabdfl> :-)
 * popey scps Burgundavia a donut
<sabdfl> gone
<sabdfl> did i mention how much i enjoy working with you all?
<popey> heh
 * ogra plays MIM between popey and Burgundavia and has a bite
<sabdfl> thank you everyone
<popey> hang on, mdke has a copy of the CoC printed out
<sabdfl> sigh. ogra. QUOTES PAGE
<ogra> :)
<popey> heh
<Technoviking> thanks all
<sabdfl> night all
<ogra> night
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-08-06
<ompaul> ogra, night ;-)
<ogra> :)
<stgraber> ompaul: ogra is a bot, he doesn't need to sleep.
<ogra> haha
<ompaul> stgraber, he just needs to smoke and organise flash hugs ;-)
<ogra> no i pushed my cmpc release candidate yesterday ... i feel useless now
<stgraber> ompaul: yeah :)
<stgraber> ogra: go to #ltsp, lots of work there :)
<ogra> yeah, on my list :)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Aug 20:00 UTC: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 06 Aug 20:00 UTC: Maryland LoCo IRC | 07 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release
<pedro_> hello everybody!
<heno> hey!
<sbeattie> hey!
<ara> hey!
 * pedro_ hugs nxvl
<pedro_> nxvl: nice MOTU video ;-)
<nxvl> pedro_: thanks
<heno> welcome everyone!
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:04. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> [TOPIC]: Post Hardy.1 SRU verifications - help needed
<MootBot> New Topic: : Post Hardy.1 SRU verifications - help needed
<heno> There are quite a few SRUs in need of verification in both main and universe
<heno> http://people.ubuntu.com/~sbeattie/sru_todo.html and http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~sbeattie/sru_todo.html and http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<sbeattie> and that's after a number have already gone through.
<heno> I actually think we should question whether all these are SRU-worthy
<heno> whether they really meet the serious breakage or regression criteria
<LaserJock> well, it's not really the QA teams decision exactly
<LaserJock> but perhaps we can do some sort analysis to help the SRU teams decide better
<heno> But we have a voice in that
<LaserJock> sure
<DktrKranz> heno, SRU policy changed a bit, even small patches can become a SRU nowadays (as per wiki.u.c/SRU page)
<heno> we should encourage thouse guidelines to be followed
<LaserJock> I personally think QA efforts might be most useful in poking people in these situations
<LaserJock> getting 2 + votes should not be difficult
<heno> right. I'll ask around a bit and report back
<heno> in the meantime it would be great to have help in checking these
<sbeattie> Some of the ones, particularly update-manager, have ppc specific issues (the move from being a supported platform to ports)
<LaserJock> you should have at least the original reporter and sponsor
<persia> I think that a QA voice in SRU would certainly help: both SRU teams seem overburdened by the current processes (from an external perspective)
<heno> I suspect it mostly comes from work that just missed the Hardy.1 deadline
<pedro_> sbeattie: is that bug marked as hw specific ?
<persia> Maybe, but lots of people doing SRU weren't paying attention to Hardy.1
<ScottK> Hardy.1 is not relevant to Universe.
<sbeattie> pedro_: they're not, I was wondering actually whether to.
<ScottK> persia: I agree about overburdening.  I was not able to keep good situational awareness on what I should pay attention to and be effective.  One reason why I quit motu-sru.
<heno> ScottK: true, and many of them pre-date .1
<LaserJock> I'll blog a "QA wants you!" today for the SRU verifications
<sbeattie> pedro_: or to have a specific ppc tag.
<heno> LaserJock: great!
<heno> LaserJock: could you mail the devel list as well?
<LaserJock> heno: will do
<heno> moving on
<DktrKranz> in the past, MOTUs wrote mails on ubuntu-motu about -proposed updates to be tested, I don't think they were useful, but gave a little more attention to the SRU process.
<heno> I'm going to switch topics 2 and 3, which seems to make sense here
<heno> [TOPIC]: Introducing Tom Berger (intellectronica) - Launchpad Bugs contact
<MootBot> New Topic: : Introducing Tom Berger (intellectronica) - Launchpad Bugs contact
<intellectronica> hi everyone
<heno> intellectronica: are you here?
<ara> hey intellectronica
<tuxmaniac> intellectronica: nice nick :-)
<davmor2> hello :)
<LaserJock> intellectronica: hi
<cr3> intellectronica: hey dude! welcome to our world :)
<heno> Tom accepted my invitation on short notice, thanks!
<sbeattie> intellectronica: welcome!
<intellectronica> tuxmaniac: cheers. bonus points if you know where it's from ;)
<pedro_> hey intellectronica welcome ;-)
<heno> He's a developer on the LP bugs team
<intellectronica> thanks, everyone, for the warm welcome
<heno> intellectronica: care to expand a bit on that?
<cr3> He's also worked on Blueprints which are really cool!
<intellectronica> starting this month, a major part of my role as part of the launchpad team, and in particular as part of the malone team, would be to work with ubuntu and the qa team to make sure that launchpad serves their needs and that questions and requests are easy to communicate
<heno> great, which brings us to:
<persia> Wonderful news indeed!
<intellectronica> that means that in many cases i will be working directly on parts of launchpad that concern your work, but more importantly, it means that i am always available for you
<heno> [TOPIC]: LaunchpadBugsFeaturePriorities - call for input.
<MootBot> New Topic: : LaunchpadBugsFeaturePriorities - call for input.
<heno> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/LaunchpadBugsFeaturePriorities
<heno> thanks to everyone who has provided feedback so far
<heno> intellectronica: note the two additional items
<heno> we also separated out the HWDB stuff as there is a dedicated person working on that
<LaserJock> intellectronica: awesome! thanks
<intellectronica> heno: noted, though both are quite general, and are indeed on the general list of things we want to achieve in the coming period
<heno> intellectronica: have the general lists been published?
<ScottK> intellectronica: Current performance is a real killer.
<heno> or are there plans to?
<cr3> the hwdb stuff is being worked on with abel and I understand that bjorn is open to discussions on this topic
<intellectronica> specifically, regarding speed, please feel free to bug me if you feel that something isn't fast enough. more often than not we wouldn't notice until it actually times out
<ScottK> intellectronica: Generally LP web U/I is so slow it's practically unusable.
<heno> we probably work with bugs differently than most projects, often opening hundreds in a day
<heno> which is why performance is such an issue
<intellectronica> ScottK: i guess that's more true for ubuntu, which has very big sets of bugs to work with
<LaserJock> intellectronica: more true for Ubuntu than for what?
<intellectronica> ScottK: again, the best way for you to help us remedy this is by pointing out specific cases (even if there are many of them)
<intellectronica> LaserJock: more true for ubuntu than for smaller projects
<heno> LaserJock: smaller projects that use LP
<LaserJock> oh, I see
 * LaserJock was confused for a sec
<pedro_> intellectronica: there's an always reproducible timeout when you select "Show bugs that are not known to affect upstream" is that known?
<ScottK> intellectronica: I don't know of any cases that aren't. When it takes the database 4 seconds just to find the data for a single page, it's far to slow.
<heno> and for people who look at few bugs, whereas QA people tend to look at lots
<intellectronica> pedro_: it is known and a fix is being worked on
<pedro_> intellectronica: great, thanks!
 * ScottK decides to go back to $WORK before he gets some momentum on the topic and makes intellectronica feel unwelcom.
<heno> heh
<pedro_> regarding the speed i don't have issues with that
<heno> It may be that APIs+Leonov will help many people here
<pedro_> bugzilla takes more time to load anyways
<pedro_> and lp its way better to show pages with hundreds of bugs on it than bugzilla
<pedro_> but that's just me maybe
<heno> a web app will always be slower than a real one
<pedro_> yes yes yes
<pedro_> but indeed having some more tweaks there would be great
<heno> any other comments on the list other than speed?
<intellectronica> actually, i think that in this cases the slowness usually comes from the database. there are efforts to move to a better scalable architecture, but in the meantime, the best we can do is look at specific cases under the microscope and try to optimize them
<davmor2> Work fine for me :)
<ara> I think that the tag policy should be prioritize
<ara> right now it is only pri 13 of the list
<ScottK> Tags are a lost cause.
<cr3> intellectronica: I really like how landscape designed their backend to scale across multiple databases instead of relying on one single database
<ara> but they are extremely helpful when used correctly
<ara> (or sort of)
<LaserJock> broadly, I think it's valuable to try to help people to create/make higher quality bug reports
<heno> ara: ok, noted
<intellectronica> cr3: yes, we're learning and adopting a lot from how landscape is doing things
<heno> oh ara: you also have to suggest something that should have its priority decreased ;)
<LaserJock> lol
<heno> are complete activity logs really a #4 when we get the APIs?
<cr3> intellectronica: I want to bear gustavo's children :)
<LaserJock> I think so, personally
<LaserJock> I was tempted to put it #1
<heno> I assume the item here is about the web version
<LaserJock> but it's more for me than for general users
<LaserJock> heno: I think it would apply for both actually
<bdmurray> Having package assignment in the activity log would be useful
<sbeattie> intellectronica: was wondering if there's any support amongst the user base for additional first class elements; for example the elements in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Description
<LaserJock> the API may not give all the activity log either, I'm not sure
<heno> ok
<LaserJock> I've just seen a number of bugs that clearly had a history, but the activity log is blank
<sbeattie> having the activity log be useful as an audit log of operations performed would be very useful.
<intellectronica> sbeattie: not that i know, but if there's a need we should discuss it
<LaserJock> and that's very frustrating when trying to put the history together or trying to see who did what
<intellectronica> LaserJock: the api currently doesn't expose bug activity log (or bug searching, or bug filing). but it will very soon
<ScottK> I don't understand why not losing history is a "feature".  It's a bug and they should fix it.
<ara> i am back
<ara> sorry
<LaserJock> for instance, for SRU tracking, we'd like to know who approves the SRU or changes the status
<LaserJock> having a good ways of getting complete history is important
<sbeattie> intellectronica: in particular, I'd like to see testcase as a first class element, perhaps as an attachment type, to make automatically pulling them out easier.
<intellectronica> as you can see, fixing the activity log is something we worked on speccing and estimating. it's quite expensive in terms of effort, but i personally am very much in favour of prioritizing it high
<intellectronica> sbeattie: that's an interesting idea (extending the list of attachment types). maybe that's the way to do that
<heno> ok, there seems to be consensus around that
<intellectronica> sbeattie: for other types of metadata attachments would be less aprropriate, though
<heno> in fact, let's go through the top 5 from 'my version' of the list and get views
<cr3> intellectronica: extending it to what types exactly?
<heno> #1 Package-specific reporting guidelines
<intellectronica> cr3: test case, for example
<cr3> sbeattie: test cases as bug attachments would be awesome. would you distinguish test steps from test scripts?
<heno> My aim there is to improve new reports being filed
<cr3> heno: do you think reporting test cases would help improve that?
<ara> I think that improving new reports is the key point, the welcome email to new reporters is a great idea
<ara> and easy to implement
<ScottK> I don't understand why that isn't just part of the signup process.
<LaserJock> I don't get the point of th email to new reporters
<heno> cr3: it may be a bit advanced for filers
<LaserJock> Launchpad *should* be self-descriptive
<cr3> hm, so I think that test cases would be an awesome idea but I think it would only be interesting to a minority of people out there, so perhaps concentrating on the welcome email to reach the larger masses would be time better spent
<intellectronica> LaserJock: i think it's a good way to get the attention of new bug reporters and introduce them to the process
<LaserJock> intellectronica: I would submit that if that's needed something else is wrong
<heno> The idea is that you would get an email the first time you file on a given package with info on how to better file bugs on it
<heno> and info about what will happen next
<LaserJock> oh good lord, on every package?
<ScottK> heno: Why isn't that in the U/I?
<cr3> heno: oh, a different email on a per package basis!? interesting...
<intellectronica> i'm not sure doing this for every package makes sense. i would do this for ubuntu globally
<heno> ScottK: because people don't read web pages ;)
<ara> and maybe for some packages like firefox
<LaserJock> people don't read email either
<ScottK> heno: They aren't going to read the mail either
<cr3> intellectronica: I think heno would have a few key packages in mind
<heno> that could be
<persia> I think a per-package thing is more interesting in the UI.  A per-project thing might be interesting in email.
<persia> I certainly don't want to get a new email for every bug I file (I very rarely file two bugs in the same package)
<intellectronica> cr3: right, as long as we restrain ourselves so that we don't become abusive to our users
<cr3> persia: you would only get an email the first time you report a bug against a specific package
<LaserJock> I could see giving an email with useful wiki pages (we have quite useful documentation in the BugSquad) on first filing
<heno> so if we keep guided filing at #1 we should demote the email one which is similar?
<persia> cr3: Which for me, is likely to be every bug I file.
<persia> I much prefer guided bug filing as a solution to that problem.
<LaserJock> persia: yeah, that would be big-time spam
<ScottK> Personally I think sending mail to tell me something you could have put on the web page I was at when I didn't ask for the mail borders on abusive.
<heno> OK, I'll demote that as I seem to be the only supporter of it :)
<heno> #2 Duplicate-detection inside launchpad
<heno> that should make triage easier
<LaserJock> I like it, but think other things should be higher than it
<heno> this is basically using the new-bug-filing dupe-finder on exisiting bugs
<LaserJock> it sort of depends on how well the dup detection works
<ara> LaserJock:  it works pretty well
<LaserJock> well
<heno> what do triagers think?
<sbeattie> One of the use cases which makes ubuntu a different user of launchpad than most projects hosted on it, is that it is an aggregation of packages, and subgroups of those packages could/would be useful (weather report, per package bug filing info)
<ara> I use a fake new report sometimes to look after dups
<ScottK> I guess I don't understand why if the dupe finder could find it, it isn't already found.
<pedro_> could it be also look into the summary and not only in the title? (which is what's currently the dup-finder is doing)
<LaserJock> one of the things I'm concerned about with it what is done once a dup is detected?
<LaserJock> if we have to go back and retriage dups then I'm not sure how much we save
<intellectronica> ScottK: the only case is where the bug reporter ignored it
<persia> Perhaps if the UI offered a clickable list of possible dupes when selecting a duplicate, rather than just asking for entry?
<heno> ScottK: because the bug you are looking for may have been filed afterwards, it's description changed, etc
<persia> That might be helpful without being disruptive.
<LaserJock> so how would this be implemented?
<ScottK> intellectronica: In that case I think it's actively harmful.
<LaserJock> would it be flagged somehow as "possible dup"?
<heno> or the filer may not have wanted to dupe it for some reason
<intellectronica> LaserJock: yes, that's the idea. to make it easier to search for 'maybe dupes'
<LaserJock> persia: ohhhh, I l ike that
<ScottK> And I'd prefer not to have some automagic over-ride what the reporter decided.
<pedro_> persia: that would be good, it's what the GNOME Bugzilla does
<heno> it's not an automatic thing, just a search feature
<LaserJock> ok, that's cool
<LaserJock> I like persia's idea of it
<heno> me too
<LaserJock> though I think it's more of a "handy for us" than a "helps make reports higher quality" which I sort of perfer in generall
<heno> indeed
<ScottK> As a search feature, I think it might be useful, but not high priority.
<heno> ok, that can be lowered a bit too it seems
<heno> 3 and 4 we covered
<sbeattie> ScottK: we were thinking/hoping that it would be relatively easy to implement, given that the dupe detection capability alreayd exists.
<heno> #5 Bugtask forwarding relationships
<LaserJock> hmm, I didn't quite get that one
<LaserJock> intellectronica: can you explain that one more?
<ScottK> What were 3 and 4?
<sbeattie> 3: email to new reporters 4: full activity log
<heno> #3 Email first-time bug-reporters  #4 activity log
<ScottK> OK.
<persia> ScottK: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/LaunchpadBugsFeaturePriorities has the order
<intellectronica> LaserJock: basically, it's a way to refine the way bug tasks are raised
<intellectronica> LaserJock: the suggestion is to have 'phantom' bug tasks on some bugs, which you can confirm or deny
<heno> IMO it's important to be able to say 'this bug does not need upstreaming'
<LaserJock> hmm, that sounds initially easy to abuse
<ScottK> What's the use case for this?
<heno> or 'for this one we don't know yet'
<LaserJock> I see
<heno> For people who specialise in working with upstream, forwarding issues
<LaserJock> so we're trying to figure out how to sort packages into "Ubuntu specific", "May affect upstream", and "Affects Upstream" ?
<heno> yes
<intellectronica> LaserJock: exactly.
<pedro_> i like that idea ;-)
<LaserJock> hmm
<ScottK> I think being able to remove ones that shouldn't be there is far more important.
<persia> Is this just a UI change for "Also Affects..." ?
<LaserJock> well I would initially say that that could be done via tags
<intellectronica> ScottK: with this feature implemented, you'll be able to remove them before they are even created! :)
<LaserJock> the number of ubuntu-specific bugs is generally quite low
<LaserJock> so if you were to tag those
<LaserJock> and have negative tag searches
<heno> right, it shpuld be possible to change it between any of those 3 states
<LaserJock> you'd have "ubuntu specific" and "non-ubuntu specific"
<persia> Having a list of Ubuntu-specific bugs would likely be interesting to some subset of developers
<ScottK> LaserJock: It's not so easy.  Just because it's not a packaging bug, doens't mean I won't patch it if I can.
<ScottK> We already have a tag for 'packaging' bugs.
<LaserJock> ScottK: why is it not that easy
<intellectronica> LaserJock: sure, but you won't have to connection to upstream proejcts in cases where an upstream task is due
<LaserJock> we're just talking about tagging here
<heno> it could also be a code bug we introduced
<LaserJock> I never said anything about what kind of bug it is
<persia> heno: Those tend to fall under "packaging" as well, as in "some patch oughtn't be applied"
<LaserJock> I just said we can tag ubuntu vs. non-ubuntu bugs
<intellectronica> for many packages we know what the relevant upstream project is, so it would be nice to be able to use that relation effectively
<LaserJock> intellectronica: I don't get how this spec would improve that?
<persia> That reminds me, I don't see "Inheriting upstream links between releases" on the list.  Is that an option?
<LaserJock> does it make it easier to file a bug upstream?
<ScottK> Personally, I'd like clearer disambiguation between upstream and Ubuntu tasks when upstream uses LP.
<ScottK> I find the an upstream that uses LP makes life much more confusing for me.
<intellectronica> LaserJock: when a bug is filed on an ubuntu package, you will get a suggestion for where it should be reported upstream, and you'll be able to decided whether to file it, or indicate that it's ubuntu-specific
<heno> it makes it easier to triage the bugs that _may need filing upstream_
<persia> Or even when someone randomly registered the upstream project in LP and didn't set a foreign bug tracker.
<intellectronica> ScottK: how so?
<LaserJock> intellectronica: oh, and how would that look in the UI?
<heno> because you start with a big unknown pile and put bugs in two other piles
<ScottK> First, is upstream is external, I just get status changes.  If they use LP, I get every single effing piece of bugmail and no way to turn it off.
<ScottK> And the difference between that and Ubuntu related comments is very small.
<intellectronica> LaserJock: using 'phantom tasks'. lines in the bug task table that are clearly indicative of their requiring confirmation. also in search
<heno> where as now it's 'upstream' and 'ubuntu spec + don't know'
<ScottK> Also, I think most triager's don' t know enough to know what should go upstream.
<LaserJock> intellectronica: we've had a lot of people who abuse the upstream stuff already, who can confirm these?
<ScottK> Even more specifically what should go to Debian and what should go to the eventual upstream.
<intellectronica> LaserJock: the same people who can set Triaged (though of course we can discuss that when implementing)
<ScottK> Making this to easy is a recipe for disaster.
<persia> Well, making this easy may impose a large training burden.
<ScottK> No.
<ScottK> Making it easy invites abuse.
<ScottK> If people were sufficiently trained, they could handle it anyway.
<intellectronica> ScottK: well, i believe that real access control is much better than obscurity. if too easy means that you get lots of junk it means that we didn't get the permissions right
<LaserJock> so is this just making "Also affects project/distribution" easier to use by assuming we want the tasks and letting us confirm or not?
<intellectronica> LaserJock: sort of. it also helps marking bugs as ubuntu-specific
<ScottK> Fundamentally I think this entire U/I piece is pretty broken anyway.
<LaserJock> intellectronica: how so?
<intellectronica> LaserJock: if you mark a bug as not affecting upstream, launchpad will remember it
<persia> intellectronica: There aren't so many of those: it's typically only for ubuntu-local packages or when we broke something.  I wouldn't like to assume that's the general case.
<LaserJock> basically I think the assumption is that *everything* is assumed to be Ubuntu-specific until somebody explicitly finds that it's not
<intellectronica> but hey, it could be that the best thing to do is de-prioritize this feature. there are definitely many other features we could consider instead
<LaserJock> ideally we indicate that by filing the bug upstream and opening a task for it
<persia> (Mind you, I think "Also Affects..." could use work, I just don't want to optimise for the "Ubuntu-only" case, as I think it's rare)
<heno> It's seems we need more details on the implementation before taking a clear view on it
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm still not sure what it's going to do
<heno> ok, any other items on the list we should cover?
<ScottK> I'd love a feature where I don't have to go through the useful project registration stuff to link a bug.
<heno> higher or lower priority
<intellectronica> heno: ok. shall we make it an action for me to upload a spec so that we have something more concrete to discuss?
<ScottK> usful/useless
<heno> intellectronica: yes please
<intellectronica> cool
<LaserJock> in general I think tags are a pain point
<heno> ScottK: get jcastro to do it for you ;)
<ScottK> heno: It's a useless barrier
<ScottK> I'd like to discuss the qualifying bug reporters one.
<ScottK> I think it should be removed.
<heno> LaserJock: and is official tags the right answer
<ScottK> It's very un-Ubuntu to tell people the don't know enough to report bugs.
<LaserJock> I think it's also actively harmful to register projects in Launchpad just for bug tracking
<LaserJock> heno: part of it
<ScottK> Agreed.
<LaserJock> we've also discussed better viewing of tags
<ScottK> If I put my upstream hat on for a moment, I find them very troublesome
<LaserJock> i.e. sorting by number of bugs tagged rather than alphabetical
<LaserJock> and having a threshold number
<heno> right qualifying bug reporters will clearly be controvertial
<ScottK> They show up in google searches and look like the upstream home when they aren't.
<bdmurray> LaserJock: by the way there is a greasemonkey script for that now
<LaserJock> bdmurray: cool, we just need to get that into LP proper :-)
<persia> bdmurray: Sure, but isn't this the opportunity to not need that anymore ? :)
<heno> I don't feel strongly about it, but assumed it would raise the quality of bugs on average, though at a cost
<bdmurray> persia: that's why I qualified it with by the way
<LaserJock> henkjan: what would?
<LaserJock> bah
<persia> Oh.  I thought you were just passing FYI.  Sorry for confusion.
<LaserJock> heno: ^^
<heno> 'qualifying bug reporters'
<LaserJock> oh right
<LaserJock> yeah, I think that's a terrible idea
<LaserJock> and really hope it never sees the light of day ;-)
<heno> ScottK wants it removed, as does LaserJock
<heno> any other views?
<LaserJock> I can't imagine what upstream's would think
<LaserJock> "I can't file bugs on my own software???"
<pedro_> I'm with ScottK on this too, it's going to be very controversial for upstream people
<heno> ok, I'll set that to '-' then
<pedro_> thanks
<LaserJock> I mean, it's an interesting idea
<heno> anything else on the list?
<ScottK> I'd also think U/I for submitting to upstream is not a good idea.
<LaserJock> but I don't think there's any real metric that will work to figure out what "qualified" is
<persia> Perhaps the redirection can be part of the guided-bug-filing process, so it is noted but not enforced.
<heno> it's meant to give you a template basically hat you can paste upstream, not fully automatic
<JonPackard> I like the idea of an e-mail after the first time a user reports a bug with Ubuntu, but I think we should take it a step further. Would it be possible to add some sort of HELP button to the "Report a bug" page? Perhaps something like https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs would be very helpful to first time bug reporters.
<ScottK> JonPackard: Link on a web page or "Click here if you want us to mail you more information", but not automatic.
<persia> I'd be a fan of search filtering.  Sometimes someone asks me about classes of bugs that keep popping up in their searches, and I have to read a bit to understand how to suggest they search differently to find what they seek.
<heno> JonPackard: that could be worked into 'guided filing'
<ScottK> heno: I guess I have a hard time envisioning a template that would work for more than one upstream.
<heno> ScottK: it needs to be tailored for each, indeed
<LaserJock> I put "Capture Distro Series When Filing Bugs" and "Better package name UI guidance" on my list
<LaserJock> I think it would be good to help reporters get good information the first time
<LaserJock> how often do we see triagers asking "what version of Ubuntu and package are you using?"
<ScottK> heno: Seems to me like a huge amount of work for little to no payoff (generally the same people that are qualified to upstream bugs know how to use the upstream bug tracker)
<heno> persia: you want "Explicit Search Filtering" raised a bit?
<ScottK> LaserJock: Agreed.
<LaserJock> and then we have quite a few reports with no package associated that I think we can get rid of
<heno> we don't do enough upstreaming today though
<heno> many bugs are just lingering with us
<persia> heno: I don't help in #ubuntu-bugs as much as I'd like, but it's certainly something that would make helping some of the triagers easier for me.
<heno> persia: ok, thanks
<persia> On the other hand, it doesn't affect me personally, and I'm happy that it got a number if everyone else feels it's not so important.
<ScottK> heno: I think not sending everything upstream is better than sending them lots of junk that leads to Ubuntu bugs getting ignored.
<LaserJock> heno: I believe the lack of upstreaming is mostly a cultural/social issue
<heno> LaserJock: right, there should be room for those now that we have demoted a few
<heno> btw, LaserJock's prioritised list was helpful - it'd be great if a few more people did that
<LaserJock> the problem is that upstreaming is almost by definition a pretty hard thing to do
<heno> that way I can try to reconcile the different lists
<heno> it is, but we should try to make it easier where we can
<LaserJock> agreed
<heno> let's try to wrap up the meeting
<heno> keep using the mailing list
<heno> it's all good stuff!
<LaserJock> yes, productive meeting for sure
<heno> any other business?
<LaserJock> poor intellectronica  ;-)
<heno> (quickly)
<heno> ok, thanks all!
<cr3> err
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:17.
<heno> we can continue in #ubuntu-quality
<cr3> crap, I wanted to mention that daily builds are being tested now :)
<intellectronica> thanks, heno (and everyone)
<ScottK> heno: The hard part with upstreaming isn't the filing, but the knowing if and when to do so and what to say.
<ara> thanks intellectronica and everyone!
<pedro_> thanks all
<LaserJock> ScottK: and followup, IMO
<heno> ScottK: agreed, you need to spend some time learning about that upstream
<LaserJock> when you file a bug upstream you become the new bug reporter
<heno> cr3: ROCK!
<LaserJock> cr3: where will the results be?
<sbeattie> cr3: woot!
<heno> look forward to seeing the results from that for Alpha 4
<cr3> LaserJock: currently, they are only accessed on a private site but we are working towards opening up the site in the near future
<heno> Oh, btw, I'm away next week
<LaserJock> cr3: what kind of tests are being done?
<heno> but I'll log on for this meeting
<cr3> sbeattie: we're already seeing tangible results from this testing: cjwatson has modified the cd image building process to fail if the kernel image in the debian-installer is different from the kernel packages on the images
<cr3> LaserJock: for now, very simple tests. the objective at this point is simply to determine whether each image installs. we'll be adding tests gradually
<cr3> sbeattie: we need to hug cjwatson for this next time we see him :)
<tuxmaniac> LaserJock: avogadro is in Intrepid :-) Can you please subscribe that package to MOTU-Science team?
<LaserJock> cr3: please do make all that available to the Ubuntu community as soon as you can
<cr3> LaserJock: you bet, I'm as anxious to make this data available as you are :)
<heno> LaserJock: simple pre-seeds of d-i and some post-install data collection with hwtest
<LaserJock> heno: ah, cool
<heno> I think the source and tests is already on the hwtest LP project
<LaserJock> it'd be good to get other people helping
<cr3> heno: confirmed
<heno> s/is/are/
<sbeattie> cr3: that's awesome!
<heno> but running them still requires some setting up
<heno> not sure how easy that would be on a home box, say
<LaserJock> it'd be nice to get some docs on the wiki (under /Testing )
<heno> cr3: ^ :)
<heno> I believe that is already on your todo list
<cr3> heno: there's far more to it, we currently don't support submissions from the public so there are far more pressing matters than documenting what doesn't exist
<LaserJock> well
<LaserJock> we don't necessarily need  a place to submit stuff
<LaserJock> the important thing is to get people testing
<heno> in any case, cr3, schwuk and stgraber are working on extending and opening this up
<persia> cr3: The value of documentation is that others can provide input (note that documentation can be working code)
<cr3> heno: I had a long discussion with schwuk this morning about the roadmap for making this possible within the scope of the message queue task. the specific steps will be documented shortly within the wiki page we've been working on together.
<heno> cr3: excellent, thanks
<heno> I'll wander off for a bit
<cr3> LaserJock: err, you need a way to determine which tests passed or failed. there is no interface for this in the testing tool because there is tremendous value in historical test results for detecting regressions for example, hence the incentive to submit this information in some central database
<LaserJock> cr3: there's no way to tell the outcome outside the website?
<cr3> LaserJock: unless you feel like reading xml
<LaserJock> well, that's not bad
<LaserJock> we could write a quick xml parser
<cr3> LaserJock: it's just a matter of weeks before it is possible to submit results to the website, so I wouldn't worry about this problem
<LaserJock> ok
<schwuk> cr3: Perhaps we should include a summary in the tool, or similar to LaserJock suggested (I've already had some thoughts along those lines)
<LaserJock> I'm just getting antsy as we're running out of time for Intrepid
<cr3> LaserJock: if we were talking about months, I'd definately agree with you and spend appropriate time for an interim solution
<LaserJock> if we want to test stuff out and build a community effort we need some time
<LaserJock> I'd like to have an Ubuntu Testing Jam for a late Alpha and/or  Beta
<cr3> LaserJock: time will be tight for intrepid so, realistically speaking, I expect this release to be a beta testing phase for how testing could become. then, we'd start our ideal way of testing from day one for intrepid+1
<LaserJock> cr3: ok, but if you want people to test it then Intrepid Beta is a good time to do it
<cr3> LaserJock: this is a very important phase though, we need to learn as much from the process as possible during intrepid, so we need to make the tools available ideally before your jam
<cr3> LaserJock: absolutely
<LaserJock> I mean, I have no idea right now how many people would be interested in hwtest
 * persia notes that it's 18:30, and that #ubuntu-quality is a nice channel for this type of discussion.
<LaserJock> but I'd really love to see Ubuntu QA present a suite of testing tools
<cr3> schwuk: I'd learn towards dumping html and letting firefox display elaborate test results, I'd hate to implement this in gtk
<LaserJock> persia: yes, you're right
<cr3> schwuk: s/learn/lean
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Maryland LoCo IRC | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 07 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC
<calc> hi
<asac> hi
<james_w> morning TheMuso
<james_w> hi all
<bryce> hi all
<liw> hey
<evand> hello
<cjwatson> evenin' all
<TheMuso> Hi
 * ArneGoetje rubs his eyes
 * slangasek waves
<cjwatson> doko,ogra: ping?
<doko> good evening
<cjwatson> ok, there were no explicit outstanding actions, though I wanted to check in on the items people promised for "after alpha 3" or similar
<cjwatson> ogra expected to be able to finish off compcache for alpha 4, but doesn't seem to be here, so we'll skip that for now
<cjwatson> asac: how goes NM 0.7?
<cjwatson> I assume you hit a roadblock of some kind today ...
<asac> it worked for you ;)
<cjwatson> yes, it did :)
<asac> so yes. i got trapped by some intermediate mozilla work, doing the final cleanup now
<cjwatson> ok, fair enough, thanks
<asac> its basically not stopping NetworkManager during shutdown and upgrade
<asac> but displaying "restart system" ... i know this sucks
<cjwatson> my upgrade seemed to be subtly less painful than the previous tries
<asac> but thats the only way upstream supports upgrades without tearing down the connection
<asac> still it tears down interfaces on upgrade and upstream says: restart required.
<cjwatson> beforehand, nm-applet crashed and burned; this time it kept the connection up and a logout/login largely seemed to sort things out
<asac> well. at least that takes care for restarting the applet too
<cjwatson> but if a restart is going to be required, I guess we'll have to cope; the hardy->intrepid kernel upgrade will require one anyway
<asac> true. i think thats ok for now. 0.8 will have something to deal with keeping interfaces up according to upstream
<asac> but lest first get NM out
<cjwatson> we'll see :)
<cjwatson>  * Team name
<asac> s/NM/NM 0.7/
<cjwatson> so, as I mentioned at the sprint, Mark has asked for the Canonical distro team to be renamed to the Ubuntu Platform Team
<slangasek> the Ubuntu Trellis
 * liw votes for the Ubuntu Bananenkartoffeln Team
<cjwatson> it's worth noting that "platform" means different things in different organisations, and I think Mark thinks of it more widely than I do
<cjwatson> anyway, the upshot is we lost the name game and get to rename ourselves
<doko> liw: it's Bratkartoffel
<calc> super core dev ;-)
 * TheMuso still has no new ideas.
<liw> (iow, I don't care about the name :)
<cjwatson> I talked with mdz and sabdfl, juggled a lot of ideas, most of which suck; as an executive decision I have agreed with mdz to call ourselves the Ubuntu Foundations Team, by analogy with the Launchpad Foundations Team that occupies a rather similar position over that way
<calc> so we have desktop, desktop experience, qa, any others i forget inside of ubuntu platform?
<cjwatson> yes, I know this clashes with the Ubuntu Foundation
<slangasek> as long as it doesn't clash with the Ubuntu Mascara, that should be ok
<asac> Foundations Team really remembers me of a charity
<cjwatson> but since that's dormant until it's needed (with any luck never), I don't think this is a serious problem
<cjwatson> I will wander round and rename wiki pages and such in due course
<cjwatson> calc: mobile, server, kernel, community; desktop experience is external
<TheMuso> Sounds reasonable.
<calc> oh yea those teams are important too, esp the kernel one ;-)
<cjwatson>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/ClientToolsDiscussion
<cjwatson>    (James)
<cjwatson> james_w: would you introduce this?
<james_w> so, I'm starting to look at the parts of my work that affect people more clearly, rather than just trying to get good history for the branches.
<james_w> this means that I'm looking to receive input on various things, and so I'm starting to draft some wiki documents for comment by others, so that I know which direction to go in
<james_w> one of these is the document above, looking at some high level tool questions
<james_w> we need some way to access and work with the branches, and this document is about getting answers to a couple of questions about how this tools should look in the abstract.
<james_w> There are two questions discussed on there currently, and I'm happy to add more, and I would like input to make sure that I haven't missed any arguments either way, or mis-evaluated things
<james_w> or indeed if I'm barking up completely the wrong tree, or just barking
<james_w> the first question there is whether we should have a new tool/suite of tools for working with these branches, or make the existing tools we have for dealing with packaging branches do out bidding
<cjwatson> it occurred to me that it would be worth considering tools separately
<cjwatson> debcheckout is much more complicated (for this purpose) than debcommit
<james_w> yes, I think debcommit may still be encouraged
<james_w> debcheckout is the harder one to thing about
<cjwatson> debcheckout and debrelease are also used much less often, and so easier to swap out
<james_w> I'd appreciate any comments people have on the page, either now, or at a later date after you have had more time to digest it
 * TheMuso is still reading.
<cjwatson> I have to say the structured workflow bit of it doesn't really appeal to me
<liw> james_w, I haven't digested that yet, but I'm curious about whether you think unperish might fit into that picture in some way?
<cjwatson> although if it just amounts to "sensible defaults, which you can override", that would be no bad thing
<james_w> liw: that's interesting, I'd not considered it
<james_w> yeah, I realise the second may well be more controversial
<james_w> so I'm kind of asking, how much would you hate it if the tool layed things out for you so that it worked well?
<cjwatson> I can't say that I would be terribly upset if we ended up with ubuntu-checkout and ubuntu-release tools in ubuntu-dev-tools, or similar
<james_w> there will be the bzr interface to get full control, but you would want to be somewhere in the middle, where you have some help, but some control?
<james_w> I haven't worked out yet if I can organise it in a way such that you get "sensible defaults, which you can override" without making the interface unwieldy
<liw> james_w, an additional random thought: the mr package may provide some inspiration, too, although it's not directly related
<asac> i can not yet estimate how much those tools would constraint me, but having some sane best-practices scripts sounds reasonable imo.
<james_w> liw: yes, I've never looked at in detail
<james_w> does anyone think that two tools would be good, an easy one, and a more complex one, where they could be interchangeable and not cause problems if used together would work?
<cjwatson> it's possibly worth considering that if you start out a developer tool with a very restrictive design, it tends to accumulate wishlist bugs to make it less restrictive :)
<cjwatson> sometimes it's better to make the design flexible from the start, and then you end up with something more coherent
<liw> james_w, I think you may want to consider a heavily plugin based design to allow flexibility
<cjwatson> plugins seem like overkill for a "checkout Ubuntu source package" tool. What were you thinking of?
<james_w> cjwatson: that is true, two tools could make it hard to know where to draw the line
<slangasek> james_w: I don't think we want two separate tools; IME that tends to cause gulfs between the hard-core users and the novices
<asac> good point
<james_w> liw: it will at least be a library, so you can script specific operations that you like
<cjwatson> bzr ubuntu-root ~/src/ubuntu
<cjwatson> bzr ubuntu-checkout man-db
<cjwatson> # checks out to ~/src/ubuntu/man-db/intrepid
<cjwatson> something like that?
<james_w> slangasek: good point, would two command sets in one tool lead to the same thing?
<cjwatson> and ultimately it just maps to mkdir; cd; bzr checkout lp:ubuntu/intrepid/man-db anyway
<slangasek> james_w: if they're two completely disparate sets, then possibly, to a lesser degree?
<liw> git has that
<james_w> cjwatson: that would be the idea
<cjwatson> I have a feeling that making the whole thing be a bzr command set might be no bad thing, and then we can reuse bzr's configuration infrastructure
<james_w> cjwatson: with a shared repo thrown in
<liw> if it's just for checking code out with bzr, then a bzr plugin seems the most logical choice
<cjwatson> debcommit is sort of different because its primary job is parsing debian/changelog to figure out the commit message (as well as VCS independence)
<cjwatson> bzr ubuntu-release would amount to debcommit -r and (for the time being) upload?
<james_w> yeah, you'll be able to "bzr branch lp:ubuntu/hardy/gcc" or similar
<cjwatson> ubuntu-release would have to deal with alternative upload locations, e.g. PPAs
<james_w> it would be easy to add things as bzr commands, and then have a separate tool which has just those commands, so that new users can find the commands for Ubuntu stuff more easily
<cjwatson> perhaps just arbitrary dupload/dput arguments
<liw> in unperish I have "unperish dput --dput-host=foo", which seems to work well for me (but the userbase is limited :)
<james_w> cjwatson: my thought earlier was perhaps to switch to "mark-uploaded" or something, where you do the upload, and then tell the tool to do it's thing
<james_w> it would leave plenty room for transitioning to another system later
<cjwatson> maybe people here could volunteer to basically instrument their workflow for a day, logging each time you do a checkout, commit, or tag/upload operation
<cjwatson> regardless of current tool
<james_w> that would be an interesting idea
<james_w> would a package that diverted a load of packaging tools and just logged their use before invoking them be a bad idea?
<cjwatson> in my case, many of the operations are sftp and dpkg-source
<cjwatson> you might find it tricky :)
<liw> studying history files might be enough?
<james_w> maybe
<cjwatson> (I haven't got round to writing a tool to forcibly fetch from my local mirror or fetch alternative versions, so often just use lftp directly)
 * TheMuso is usually using dpkg-source/dput/dpkg, except cases where I need to use bzr.
<cjwatson> james_w: I wondered also whether it was worthwhile to "hide bzr, so that you don't have to know you are using it"
<james_w> I think everyone needs something more concrete to discuss. My aim today was to get first reactions to the idea really.
<james_w> cjwatson: I think there is some value to it
 * TheMuso is happy to go with the flow, as he doesn't have any concrete ideas either way yet.
<james_w> cjwatson: it's possible to have a very thin wrapper if we decide to stuff most things in to bzr
<slangasek> is the argument there that people will resist if they see that it's built on bzr?
<slangasek> because I hope you're delivering us something that works so awesome that everyone will want to use it :-)
<cjwatson> ISTM that only extremely naive use would avoid needing to use more sophisticated bzr commands (even things like log, viz, etc.) and that people would outgrow a thin wrapper very quickly
<asac> i dont understand that argument too. if its easy to use then we dont need to hide it I hope.
<james_w> slangasek: partly, and partly that many people won't need to see most of what bzr does, so "ubuntu-bzr commands" lists only ubuntu related stuff
<james_w> true
<cjwatson> I can see the help-guidance argument, although perhaps there are other ways to achieve that
<james_w> yes, there are I think
<slangasek> I guess I would expect that we would be /encouraging/ people to use bzr's full range of features, particularly branching/merging to allow parallel development
<cjwatson> when we finally get round to an Ubuntu Developer's Reference for instance ...
<james_w> I would like to make it a gradual transition to the more advanced features though
<slangasek> absolutely
<james_w> putting everything in bzr does remove some bumps from that though, even if it doesn't sheild the user from the features immediately
<james_w> and there are other ways to provide the transition
<james_w> so it sounds like I should go for using bzr to start with, especially as for this release it will be people that are interested that will try it out
<james_w> I'll put this discussion in to the document.
<james_w> Thanks all for your input, it was very valuable.
<james_w> There's one more thing I would like to mention.
<james_w> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/
<lifeless> hi
<james_w> is the home that I am making on the wiki for all of the design stuff
<lifeless> hating my isp right now :P
<james_w> hey lifeless
<james_w> and one thing I am doing is looking at the processes we have and seeing what the requirements of the tool would be for each of them.
<james_w> if you'd like to help, or have an area which you would like to make sure is covered please ping me
<bryce> james_w, for X one workflow consideration is interop with git (which I know probably won't be there for some time).
<james_w> e.g. slangasek and SRUs
<james_w> bryce: yeah, it's not at the top of my list right now, but it is something that I want to make work well.
<james_w> bryce: perhaps we should talk about what you would like out of my work in the short/medium term so that I know where to focus
<james_w> I saw you fighting with git earlier, so I understand if you want to switch :-)
<bryce> james_w, :-)
 * cjwatson wonders how hard adding git support to cscvs would really be
<lifeless> bzr can import from git already
<james_w> cjwatson: jelmer is working on bzr-git at the moment, so hopefully we won't need to
<lifeless> fastexport | fastimport
<lifeless> I wouldn't add it to cscvs
<james_w> cjwatson: I believe the other day he said he was working on "bzr branch git://..."
<cjwatson> I was thinking of it in the light of getting it into the code import infrastructure in the most expedient way
<lifeless> git doesn't need all of cscvs's machinery because its not as brain damaged
<lifeless> cjwatson: sure; I doubt that that is it; :P
<cjwatson> lifeless: heh, ok
<lifeless> anyhow, as the phase 1 branches have no upstream links; it doesn't really help to have a import in bzr
<bryce> james_w, lifeless: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/GitUsage documents our git workflow pretty well
<lifeless> because you still can't merge-to-update
<james_w> thanks bryce
<cjwatson> lifeless: thinking ahead
<lifeless> cjwatson: fair enough
<bryce> basically it involves merging from debian's git repo.  Also we occasionally pull git straight from fdo upstream for testing (I'm currently trying to put together packages from the drm-gem branches of things for BenC)
<bryce> being able to do that through bzr would be sweet
<cjwatson> ok, sounds like the end of that topic; any other business? (thanks, James)
<james_w> thanks everyone, that was very useful to me
 * slangasek raises his hand
<cjwatson> slangasek: go
<slangasek> CDs are oversized again; they were missing the matching kernel for a few days, during which some packages snuck some more bloat in :)
<cjwatson> BTW I arranged that kernel skew will cause a build failure rather than just spitting out a busted CD, in future
 * TheMuso should really get to downsizing sounds. WIll look into that today.
<slangasek> I'm trying to trim it back today so that we can get a good ISO to use for testing NM 0.7 when it lands, but if anybody spots anything, help is appreciated
<cjwatson> slangasek: just alternates, or desktops too?
<slangasek> cjwatson: great, that should help us be more proactive
<slangasek> cjwatson: oh, the desktops aren't oversized; is the build from this morning intact?
<slangasek> or are they going to get bigger on the next run?
<cjwatson> it may be a bit screwed (the kernel image is still taken from d-i), but not in a way that affects size significantly
<slangasek> currently alternate is the only oversized, so that decreases the urgency some - makes it only an issue of getting down to size for alpha-4 :)
<slangasek> fwiw, a new enchant sync has pulled all of voikko (the Finnish spellchecker) onto the CDs
<slangasek> I'm kicking that back out into a separate binary now
<calc> if only alternate is oversized just rebuild something with lzma ;-)
<cjwatson> I'll test the removal of the uncompressed Packages files nowish and commit that if it works
<slangasek> calc: we have some candidates for that, as well, still; samba would be a good one, new upstream version bloated quite a bit and smbclient was already on the watch list
<asac> one thing: could someone please check that running /usr/share/update-notifier/notify-reboot-required brings up the "restart" notification? for me it doesnt work.
<slangasek> touch: cannot touch `/var/run/reboot-required': Permission denied
<slangasek> ? :)
<asac> sudo
<slangasek> oh, I already have the 'reboot required' icon glaring at me, so - no effect ;)
<asac> too bad ;)
<asac> anyone else?
 * TheMuso is not running intrepid.
<cjwatson> well, all the kernel packages do is simply run that without arguments
<james_w> asac: nothing yet, is it polled for?
<liw> asac, on hardy, no effect
<cjwatson> so if you do that, you'll be in good company
<asac> still it doesnt work
<asac> not on hardy, nor on intrepid
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-08-07
<cjwatson> we need to get round to transferring mvo from desktop so that he can answer this sort of question. :)
<slangasek> :-)
<cjwatson> asac: I suggest mailing Michael and/or ubuntu-devel
<cjwatson> ok, we're at time
<cjwatson> only thing I forgot is to remind folks that I'll be away next week on a music course
<james_w> have fun cjwatson
<james_w> asac: I've got it now, I killed update-notifier and restarted then waited a while
<cjwatson> have fun releasing alpha 4 without me :)
<slangasek> and I'm at DebConf, so pitti is the designated release nagger^W manager for alpha-4
<james_w> I'm away for a long weekend, back on Wednesday
 * evand notes that he will be away from tonight until next sunday
<slangasek> at DebConf next week, that is; I'll still be around to nag people this week :)
<asac> oops. noone left for alpha 4 ;)
<cjwatson> yes, we'll be very lightly staffed in general next week
 * asac runs ;)
<james_w> slangasek: I'm sure you could manage to nag remotely as well
<cjwatson> there's aKademy too
<slangasek> james_w: from experience, I don't expect to have the spare attention circuits :)
<james_w> slangasek: just nagging in spirit then?
<bryce> slangasek needs a nagbot
<TheMuso> heh
<calc> will be bumping all the OOo a4 bugs back a bit unless OOo 3.0rc1 is released magically on Aug 8
<slangasek> james_w: yes :-)
<bryce> maybe we could make slangasek obsolete with a tiny bash script?
<cjwatson> oh, adjourned, in case it wasn't obvious
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<james_w> thanks all
<evand> thanks!
<ArneGoetje> thanks
<TheMuso> heh thanks all.
<calc> thanks
<liw> thanks
<bryce> thanks
<james_w> though I think we should continue mocking slangasek unofficially
 * TheMuso heads to the store to get some more milk...
<bryce> james_w, agreed
<cjwatson> surely slangasek would need to be replaced with a POSIX sh script rather than bash
<cjwatson> wouldn't do to be standards-uncompliant
<asac> thanks!
<slangasek> heh
<doko> so I never will replace slangasek =)
<liw> hmm, my 121 line nagger script is written for bash, so it's not useful for this, too bad :)
 * liw nags himself to bed, good night
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC
<cody-somerville> Mobile Team Meeting time?
<persia> In about 10 minutes.
<davidm> Indeed, about 3 minutes now :-)
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:04. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> Hello everyone
<persia> Good morning
<davidm> The ubuntu mobile meeting is started
<lool> Hey
<davidm> We have no action items listed from last week, persia since you chaired the meeting is there anything I'm not aware of?
 * ogra waves
<persia> davidm: Oughtn't be.  The only big item on the agenda was moving the meeting time.
<davidm> OK, just checking
<davidm> I just pinged StevenK to join us.
<davidm> There is no new business on the wiki but I had a heck of a time getting the pages up they switched the wiki over to openid yesterday
<davidm> So I'm not surprised that there is nothing there.
<davidm> persia, StevenK lool any issues we should talk about?
<davidm> ogra, ^^
<lool> Not that I'm aware of
<lool> (yet :-)
<persia> One thing that came up a couple days ago was perhaps doing a review of the seeds to see if we have the right package mix for intrepid.
<lool> I'm happy to report I'll be attending the Maemo Summit in Berlin, mid-September
<StevenK> Oh yes. Are people happy with my seed changes?
<davidm> lool, great
<persia> I fiddled with a chroot, and things seem to be good, but it might need some hints to determine if that's what we want to be testing against come FeatureFreeze at the end of the month.
 * ogra left his atom classmate idling the last two days ... by the looks of it in idle state generic is taking similar amounts of battery than lpia both survive about 6h
<ogra> just fyi
<davidm> ogra, thanks for that info.
<lool> persia: The mobile or the mid seed?
<ogra> not sure what happens during actual usage
<persia> lool: Yes.
<lool> persia: So both, ok
<lool> Since we have some time in this meeting, I'd love it if we could take some minutes to check progress of intrepid tasks: merge of ppa, installer, images etc.
<persia> ogra: "generic" == i386?
<ogra> no -generic
<ogra> == 586
<persia> Yeah, but dpkg-arch-wise
<davidm> lool, good idea
<persia> Unless I've missed something (entirely possible), the non-hildon stuff should all be merged from the PPA.
<davidm> [topic] status of  intrepid tasks: merge of ppa, installer, images etc.
<MootBot> New Topic:  status of  intrepid tasks: merge of ppa, installer, images etc.
<lool> persia: Could you list what remains to be done on the merge front?
 * ogra would like to actualy get some assigned beyond "jump in where gaps are" :)
<lool> I understand MIC, perhaps xulrunner ?
<lool> ogra: Oh you're bored?  *cliketeeclick* I'll find you something   :-P
<persia> Ah, well, there's the ones I didn't touch: xulrunner, libdrm, and similar.  I don't currently have access to the tracking data I was using for merges previously, but may be able to recover it if a full list is desired.
<ogra> classmate has the release candidate out and i only have compcache left to implementation in the platform team ... so unless any weird additional classmate stuff comes u i'm free
<ogra> *to implement
<persia> ogra: Can you make -mobile not be a copy of -desktop, look nice, and work?
<lool> persia: Could we go into more details?  I'm pretty sure we wont merge psb and libdrm: psb needs the special libdrm and intel needs to provide updated drivers first
<ogra> persia, sure :) if someone dfines the corner points of "look nice"
<lool> We need updated drivers for the kernel, an update on upstream libdrm status as to rebase needed libdrm patches, and then we can push -psb to intrepid
<lool> persia: Concerning xulrunner, we should discuss this with asac
<lool> If necessary, we should drop the gconf backend if that can't be merged
<persia> lool: Erm.  Has TTM or GEM landed in upstream libdrm?  I hadn't heard of any clear plans to do so within the intrepid timeframe.
<StevenK> bryce would know.
<lool> persia: I don't know what the plans are either; I don't think psb is using any of the two though
<persia> I thought psb was using HEAD, which was TTM in late May/early June.
 * persia looks through old mail
<lool> I think it's using HEAD too, but I don't know whether it's relying on any memory manager stuff or doing modesettings
<lool> Anyway, not our problem; Intel needs to rebase on upstream and tell us what they rely upon for 2.6.26 stuff IMO; the ball is on their side for psb driver support AIUI
<persia> If it's using HEAD, it would be using the new memory manager stuff, as I understand it, the old way and the new way of handling VRAM are different semantics.
<lool> Ok; well, in both cases it's to Intel to tell us what they are using; we don't have to sort out what their upstream drivers should be or were or will be using
<persia> So, that leaves in the NOT MERGING status language-pack-gnome-* which ought be useless and derive from rosetta, grub, which patch is reported as "unsafe".
<persia> moko, which is obsolete, and keyring, which doesn't mean anything without a special archive.
<lool> The grub patch I'm afraid we will drop; it will remain in the librarian for posterity, but it's unlikely to be merged in the current grub upstream and it wont work with grub2
<ogra> lool, the prob is that pulling in an uncommon drm module will break all other drm drivers
<lool> Concerning the langpacks, I'm not sure these are obsolete; I suspect we need some integration work to get them integrated in intrepid
<lool> ogra: We wont be pulling the psb drm anymore
<ogra> so we should be intrested what they base on indeed :)
<ogra> ah, k
<persia> Note that nouveau waits on HEAD as well.  It's just a matter of porting all the rest of the drivers
<lool> Until they rebase it
 * ogra missed that
<lool> ogra: I mean, as long as we don't get any drivers information from intel, we will remain with the upstream kernel bits
<ogra> good
<ogra> well, basing everything on HEAD would indeed be preferable ...
<lool> I'll doublecheck with ChickenCutClass
<ogra> but i guess that extends the intrepid tieframe if we have to do it ourselves
<ogra> *time
<lool> persia: So on the merge front status is: xulrunner gconf backend needs merging (lool to discuss with asac); langpacks (lool to discuss with asac); MIC (may I assign this to you?)
<lool> moko, keyring, grub, to be dropped
<persia> lool: MIC was uploaded 80 minutes ago.  langpacks should be useless if there's not a separate PPA: the standard infrastructure should handle them.
<lool> As well as psb/libdrm/kernel bits
<lool> persia: I'm not sure the standard infrastructure currently ships the midbrowser bits
<persia> I'm not sure about xulrunner, and I'll try to get my melting system up to see if there's anything else interesting not merged.
<lool> The /usr/lib/midbrowser xulrunner extension
<lool> Ok; anything else on the topic of merging ppa to intrepid?
<persia> lool: In the langpacks?
<lool> persia: In the langpacks
<persia> I'll look again.  It ought.
<lool> Ok; let's move to kernel, I see amitk joined us
<persia> Note that langpacks only work for main: we may need a few MIRs if something is missing.
<lool> amitk: I understand linux-lpia is now in the hands of Michael
<amitk> lool: that's right
<lool> I'm not sure whether the Ubuntu kernel team worked on armel support already; I don't think we have any requirement to do so yet, so it might be a task with a lesser priority?
<davidm> lool, no requirement as yet.
<amitk> lool: I will have a armel git tree available in the next 2 weeks. I am about to use debian bootstraps to see if it works.
<lool> amitk: Great
<lool> amitk: I'm not sure whether there's anything else on the pure-kernel topics, I know I wanted to support lpia udebs and that required kernel udebs, but I don't think this was on your plate
<lool> amitk: Perhaps we shoudl discuss drivers shortly
<lool> amitk: Any drivers you're working on for mid/mobile devices for intrepid or hardy?
<amitk> lool: I have added support in the intrepid tree for udebs before I passed it on to Michael
<ogra> cool
<lool> amitk: Excellen
<lool> t
<amitk> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=amitk/ubuntu-intrepid-lpia.git;a=summary
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=amitk/ubuntu-intrepid-lpia.git;a=summary
<amitk> ^ for anyone interest in playing with intrepid lpia
<persia> amitk: Cool!
<lool> amitk: Thanks for the updates
<amitk> I'll publish the armel tree as soon as I have it booting on NSLU
<lool> StevenK: How are images going?  Did infinity help setup dailies for intrepid?
<cjwatson> oh, are lpia udebs in the archive yet?
<lool> cjwatson: Geez I can't believe you beep on "udeb"
<lool> :-P
<cjwatson> I don't :-)
<StevenK> lool: I'm working on it, I keep getting distracted by Hardy
 * persia is looking forward to udebs: current work to make an installer is happening on i386, which isn't ideal from the stanpoint of seeing the end results.
<lool> StevenK: What's the current status?  Do you think it will require a lot of work to get dailies for intrepid?
<cjwatson> oh, yes, they seem to be in the archive
<cjwatson> I'll build debian-installer for lpia once I get half a chance then
<amitk> cjwatson: they built -> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-lpia/2.6.26-1.1/+build/669803, not sure if they are in the archive though
<persia> cjwatson: Thank you.
<amitk> aah good
<StevenK> lool: Not a great deal, no. Just requires I have some time :-)
<lool> StevenK: Okay
<lool> persia: Would you be tempted to talk about installer work?
<persia> lool: I've been fiddling with glade to get the desktop installer to work at 640x480 (just in case anyone wants to install on a very small screen).
<lool> Great!  Scalable UI is a hot topic on Gtk+ channels these days :-)
<persia> That's nearly done, and I ought have something for evan to review shortly (although I'll not block on review).
<persia> Err, not exactly scalable, just smaller :)
<lool> Okay; anything else on installer?
<ogra> a different UI or just the existing one adjusted ?
<persia> I've put off looking at the 2G/squashfs use case for now: I want to get something working for the larger class of devices first.
<ogra> i could look into producing a udeb
<persia> For 2G/squashfs/reset capability there is a need for an additional d-i module, and I'm still wrapping my head around the d-i code.
<ogra> for the size detection etc
<persia> ogra: If you want to chase that, it would be a great help.  Thanks.
<ogra> ok, on my TODO then
<persia> Once it exists, we can just feed it as part of the ubiquity preseed, and we ought be OK.
<lool> Ok; I'm sceptical on the time it would take on such devices to build the squashfs at install time, but that's not the place or time to discuss this
<ogra> i did some udeb stuff before with ltsp, so shouldnt be a biggie ... and cjwatson didnt seem reluctant to the idea anymore :)
<persia> lool: Not build the squashfs at install time.  I looked at that, but it's just infeasible.
<lool> Last topic which comes to my mind ATM would be on ogra's activities for intrepid: what are you up to?  :-)
<persia> It's a matter of using the existing squashfs.
<cjwatson> what would this new udeb do?
<cjwatson> and it's unlikely that you'd want to use that udeb in ubiquity
<ogra> if content > capacity -> copy squashfs, set up aufs and warn the user about upgradeability
<ogra> if content < capacity -> copy content in place and configure
<cjwatson> it already has its own perfectly good squashfs handling code
<cjwatson> this is all in ubiquity?
<persia> In the case where we detected larger devices, we would have to remove the squashfs hints from the CD suashfs.
<ogra> this was supposed to be a udeb
<cjwatson> if d-i isn't involved, you should just do this in ubiquity/scripts/install.py, not a udeb
<ogra> ubiquity would need a variable to skip the content copying i can preseed for that
<cjwatson> or it could figure it out for itself ...
<ogra> or that
<lool> ogra: Why not copy only the differing contents after setting up the unionfs on the target?
<ogra> but that smells like more code changes to ubiquity
<persia> cjwatson: Evan advised me that ubiquity worked cleanest as a d-i front-end, and that we ought think of it as an advanced preseeding system, plus the possible facility to copy a livefs to reduce installation effort.
<cjwatson> ogra: smells better, though
<cjwatson> persia: this is true, but the copying part of ubiquity is very much not geared around using a udeb
<ogra> i was planning to change ubiquity itself to the least amount i can ... but if you think thats better i can do it
<lool> :c
<cjwatson> we use d-i components for all the configuration parts where possible
<persia> cjwatson: Ah, so if the copying was to be replaced, it shouldn't be done with a udeb, right?
<cjwatson> the copying stage, though, is just done inline
<cjwatson> persia: that would certainly not be my inclination
<ogra> lool, copy content above would mean standard ubiquity
<persia> OK.  That's easier then :)
<ogra> lool, only in case where the content doesnt fit it shuld do a different setup
<lool> ogra: Ok; didn't know it could copy contents after setting up an unionfs on the target
<persia> lool: You can't.
<ogra> no that must hapen before
<cjwatson> I don't think you can support the 2G/squashfs case particularly sanely in d-i
<persia> lool: I'll explain the theoretical mechanism in #ubuntu-mobile after the meeting.
<cjwatson> I mean, I know people have tried, but it's really geared towards building up the system from scratch
<ogra> cjwatson, the advantage of a udeb is that oem's could just use it with d-i
<lool> persia: Ok, let's do this
<ogra> where ubiquity might not be wanted
<ogra> i.e. mass installs etc
<cjwatson> ogra: but it would be much, much, much harder than just creating a udeb to make d-i work in this type of scenario
<cjwatson> trust me, I've tried
 * lool <15 minutes EOM warning>
<ogra> ok
<cjwatson> lots of bits of d-i would become essentially non-functional; for instance how do you do package selection when you have a squashfs?
<cjwatson> there's really not a lot of point
<persia> Right, so anyway, with the udebs in place, and cjwatson's generous offer to do an lpia d-i build, I should have a working installer for -mid next week, for the >4G case.
<ogra> right, no package selection in that case indeed
<persia> For the smaller case, we'll have to fiddle more, but at least there will be something to test (assuming we can build images)
<cjwatson> and FWIW OEMs are already using ubiquity for mass installations
<ogra> ok
<cjwatson> hardy has a noninteractive mode
<ogra> i always hought d-i would be easier for that :)
<persia> ubiquity noninteractive seems a lot easier than d-i+preseed for OEM use.
<ogra> (i would take d-i if i were OEM ... :) )
<ogra> yeah, squashfs is likely faster than having package selection being installed
<ogra> indeed
<cjwatson> yeah, d-i just doesn't really work with a pre-existing filesystem
<persia> ogra: That makes it just a file copy, rather than repeating all the postinsts, etc.
<cjwatson> so easier or not, ubiquity is what you've got ;-)
<ogra> ok
<ogra> sad :) i like shell more than python ... but will find my way around :)
<davidm> [action] lool the investigation of xulrunner, langpacks and linux-lpia bits
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool the investigation of xulrunner, langpacks and linux-lpia bits
<lool> Thanks davidm
<davidm> lool happy to do so.
<lool> If we are done with the installer, I'd love to use the remaining time to discuss ogra's work in intrepid
<davidm> 10 minute warning
 * ogra listens up 
 * persia also, especially any ideas for the -mobile seed
<lool> ogra: Well actually I was expecting you would give us (mostly me) an update on what your plans are, what you're currently working on for intrepid etc.
<lool> I don't have anything to throw at you at this minute, but I've noted that you have free cycles and will come up with tasks for you later on  ;-)
<ogra> well, i was tied in by classmate work and as i said have one task left for platform (compcache) which should be done mid next week
<lool> Okay; thanks for the update
<lool> Are you also merging classmate stuff into intrepid?
<cjwatson> s/platform/foundations/ ;-)
<lool> I know you had an issue with merging the last kernel patches
<ogra> as i understood persia he wants me to clean up the -mobile seed ... if that isnt supposed to be a copy of -desktop with different themeing for smaller sizes i need input on the apps that differ
<ogra> cjwatson, oh, right :)
<ogra> lool, the kernel team agreed to make my patches SRUable for the standard hardy kernel which should take the load off my sholders
<ogra> intrepid has all these fixes in already
<lool> ogra: I think describing the new use of the mobile seed as "different theming for smaller sizes" is quite a good target; I guess we can remove applications which aren't useful in the subnotebook case or replace them with more netbook-friendly apps
<persia> ogra: Most of the apps seem to work with -desktop on my Kohjinsha, but menus are awkward, and some stuff doesn't work at 600 veritical pixels.
<lool> (no particular example in mind, but I thought we should go through the seed line by line with these criterions)
<ogra> lool, well, ther are patches for apps that dont work (i.e. i'd like to look at evo and gdm patches)
<lool> Ok
 * lool <5 minutes til EOM>
<ogra> the question is if we can get them in in a sane way to not affect normal desktop usage
<ogra> that will need some review
<persia> ogra: Probably the scalable UI stuff, really.
<ogra> you mean the panning modes ?
<ogra> that requires special X setup ... not sure i like to have it in a general setup
<lool> Ok; thanks everybody for the heads up on your work -- did I miss anybody, anything?
<persia> Either that, or something that doesn't assume 96 DPI and >10" screen so that one could use the information one has from the X server to drive app behaviour.
<ogra> and also not sure how it will work with the new Xorg ... thats moving away from virtual desktops to be used for panning upstream
<lool> persia: You want to read the discussions on Gtk+'s em support
<pitti> hi
<persia> lool: Yes I do: thanks for mentioning it earlier.
<lool> Ok; any other last minute topic?
<MacSlow> hey pitti
<MacSlow> hey seb128, mpt, ogra, lool
<seb128> hello
<davidm> looks like it's about time to end the meeting going once.......................
<davidm> looks like it's about time to end the meeting going twice..........
<mpt> ooh, GTK em support?
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:04.
<lool> Thanks everybody!  Also thanks davidm for chairing!
<mpt> lool, where could I find those discussions?
<davidm> I like this time better :-)
<lool> mpt: Mentionned on Planet GNOME; grabbing the mail.gnome.org URL
<Keybuk> davidm: you have to finish on time though ;)
<lool> http://mid.gmane.org/1218056830.3623.64.camel@x61.fubar.dk
<persia> Keybuk: Mootbot is 4 minutes ahead!
<lool> mpt, persia ^
<pedro_> hello everybody
<davidm> Keybuk, yes, I have to see why my time and MootBot differ
<MacSlow> hey pedro_
 * mvo waves
<mpt> thanks lool
<davidm> I thought I was using ntp on my laptop :-/
 * lool wishes next meeting attendees a good meeting and leaves the stage
<pedro_> hi MacSlow, mvo
<Keybuk> davidm: I read it as 1301Z
<Keybuk> bwahaha
<Keybuk> I can so ensure you finish your meeting on time ;)
<Keybuk> annnnyway
<Riddell> hi
<MacSlow> hey Riddell
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-08-07
<Keybuk> after much battling with the wiki, I almost have an agenda
<tedg1> mpt: Did you see the em video in that message?  Very cool.
<Keybuk> so first thing on the agenda
<Keybuk> mpt: Welcome Aboard!
<Keybuk> mpt is now a full-time member of the team as our UI designer
<mpt> \o/
<mvo> mpt++
<mvo> welcome!
 * pitti hugs mpt
<Keybuk> he is available for all of your UI needs
<MacSlow> what video?
<pedro_> welcome mpt!
<Keybuk> and will no doubt be coming to you with sketches and ideas
<tedg1> MacSlow: http://people.freedesktop.org/~david/gtk-resolution-indepence.ogg
<seb128> mpt: welcome!
<Keybuk> tedg1: that's doing scaling of controls by point size?
<seb128> and we already are off-topic ;-)
<tedg1> Keybuk: Yes, and scaling of spacing.
<Keybuk> shiny
<tedg1> Keybuk: Basically all "values" become EMs -- which covert to pixels based on point size.
<Keybuk> pitti: thanks for doing last week's meeting while I was down with Turkish bugs
<Keybuk> I see one action outstanding:
<Keybuk>  * Mirko to clarify gdm goals for face browser for Intrepid/Intrepid+1.
<Keybuk> (I assume MacSlow? :p)
<MacSlow> tedg1, very nice
<pitti> Keybuk: you're welcome
<pitti> Keybuk: I tend to use real names on !IRC...
<Keybuk> pitti: no matter how badly spelled? :)
<pitti> oh, it's Mirco?
 * pitti hugs MacSlow, sorry
<Keybuk> MacSlow: any update on the gdm goals?
<MacSlow> Mirco is correct
<MacSlow> Well, I don't think I can meet the feature-freeze deadline for the login-experience.
<Keybuk> I saw your mail this morning
<Keybuk> and I saw your mail last week outlining the missing bits
<Keybuk> so I think we can consider that done?
<MacSlow> The amount of "boiler-plate" code for a graphical-greeter is far more than I anticipated... partly also due to the lack of experience with GObject... never was forced to seriously use it before.
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> mpt: also you were attempting to get in touch with the user admin people, any joy there so far?
<MacSlow> no... it's not done
<seb128> Keybuk: user admin?
<mvo> who are the "user admin" people?
<mpt> Keybuk, yes, they'd like my input. So it's up to you to put that it in the appropriate position on my priority list. :-)
<Keybuk> MacSlow: I mean is the goals being clarified done?  It looks to me like they are
<mpt> mvo, Fedora developers at the moment
<seb128> context?
 * mvo nods
<seb128> users-admin in something fedora doesn't use
<seb128> s/in/is
<mvo> so a modern replacement for the one that gnome-system-tools is providing now?
<pitti> my +1 for getting a replacement for users-admin soon :)
<MacSlow> Keybuk, you mean with upstream?
<mpt> specifically Jon McCann and Matthias Clasen
<seele> mpt: you have design changes for the fedora ui?  are they on the wiki somewhere?
<seb128> mpt: can we get some context about what tool you are speaking about?
<mpt> seele, seb128: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-desktop-list/2008-May/msg00006.html
<seb128> mpt: ah, thanks!
<seb128> ok, that's something new, didn't know about that
<seele> mpt: right, i've seen that.  it sounded like you had changes
<seb128> pitti reviewed their tool some weeks ago and that was not something to use
<pitti> seb128: oh, that was system-config-user
<pitti> seb128: but they are planning a new one
<mpt> seb128, James Westby raised it at this meeting three weeks ago.
<seb128> pitti: right, I didn't know that ;-)
<Keybuk> mpt: I think at this point new user admin is jazzy jaguar, so something to work on in the background
<MacSlow> Keybuk, ah... ok read my report from last week again... now I know what you refered to... yes I know what's needed. The amount of work needed is not doable until feature-freeze.
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> other agenda items
<Keybuk> Riddell: libzip MIR
<Keybuk> I saw a nag in your activity report
<mpt> seele, not yet. :-)
<Keybuk> slangasek: around? is there much of a backlog in MIRs at the moment?
<Riddell> I keep trying to nag jdstrand and kees, no result so far
<seele> mpt: right on, let me know if youre looking for feedback.  i was thinking of doing the same for KDE once akademy is over
<seb128> Keybuk: MIR are pitti and doko
<seb128> no?
<pitti> Riddell: if it's otherwise ok, we can turn it upside down, promote it now, and turn the bug into an intrepid milestoned bug for security
<pitti> seb128: it is marked as 'needs security review'
<seb128> what is the issue? duplication and having yet another code to do that?
<jdstrand> it's on our list of things todo-- we've had some rather high priority stuff come up lately
<pitti> that's of course always a general issue
<pitti> unzip itself has had a number of issues, and it's certainly much better reviewed than libzip
<Keybuk> ok, as long as it's not been dropped
<Riddell> pitti: that would help me
<Keybuk> it sounds like this is on the TODO and will be done as soon as it can be
<Riddell> Keybuk: has been for two months..
<pitti> Riddell: can you please follow up on the MIR bug, or send mail?
<Keybuk> pitti: if you have no objection to that fast track with your RM hat on, go for it
<pitti> (just as a reminder)
<Riddell> pitti: ok
<pitti> I tend to forget IRC pings, but I'm eager to get inbox zero and thus have to do stuff for that :)
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> pitti: Team structure, member shuffling
<pitti> that's actually a question
 * tedg suffered atheros based netsplit, sorry
<pitti> a while ago it was announced that some people will change teams
<pitti> so I'm just curious about that, since it partly affects me as well (whom to ping for reports, which specs to watch, etc.)
<Keybuk> ah, ok
<Keybuk> it's probably been bounced around in various forums
<pitti> I haven't seen any official announcement so far, I think
<Keybuk> I'll attempt to outline the changes as best I can ;)
<Keybuk> The first change is that Colin and I are stepping down as team managers
<Keybuk> Colin will be taking the role of Technical Lead for the platform team
<Keybuk> while I will be taking some currently untitled role in the platform team (proposed titles include Senior Engineer, Lead Developer, etc.) - basically a technical lead level position without the specific responsbility
<Keybuk> we will be adding Technical Leads to the other teams
<Keybuk> as of the sprint a few weeks back, the Desktop Team Technical Lead is Martin Pitt
<Keybuk> we're hiring for both the new desktop and platform team managers
<Keybuk> so that's the top shuffle
<Keybuk> since everybody will end up changing line managers anyway, we figured it was a good opportunity to fix some of the strange historical reporting
<Keybuk> so moving from the desktop to the platform team will be mvo
<pitti> so that will not happen until we actually get new managers?
<pitti> mvo: bye bye compiz? :)
<Keybuk> and moving from the platform to the desktop team will be asac, ArneGoetje, bryce, calc and maybe TheMuso
<Keybuk> right, the plan is not to make this change until the new managers are hired
<Keybuk> since it saves having too much upheaval across too long a time
<pitti> ok, that was my primary concern
<Keybuk> makes more sense to have a musical chairs flag day
<mvo> pitti: not necessarily, but it will probably be less
<pitti> I never quite knew which people to ask for activity reports, etc.
<Keybuk> so today, the teams are as they were
<Keybuk> desktop experience:
<Keybuk> a new desktop experience team is being created, and a manager hired who will report to Mark (I think, it also may be ChrisKenyon)
<Keybuk> until that manager is hired, Mark is directly leading the effort
<Keybuk> and MacSlow and tedg are seconded to that team, whilst remaining reporting to the desktop team
<Keybuk> (so they still attend this meeting and send me or you activity reports, but Mark manages their priority list)
<MacSlow> until the new manager for that is in place I assume
<Keybuk> right, once the new manager for that team is hired, we'll make some reporting changes
<Keybuk> marketing:
<Keybuk> the marketing team is growing a director, a manager, a visual designer, etc.
<Keybuk> it may or may not be that artwork will report to that team
<Keybuk> or it may remain reporting to the desktop team
<Keybuk> that is not quite clear
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 07 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<tedg> Or Desktop Experience... kwwii isn't here, so I think we should tell him to report to all three ;)
<MacSlow> :)
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> the reason it's not clear, is that kwwii has been asked what he wants to do and given some options
<Keybuk> and he hid :p
<Keybuk> key points are that nothing changes until managers are hired for any of these teams
<Keybuk> and that at that point, there will be formal announcements
<Keybuk> only changes so far:
<Keybuk>  - mpt joining the distro team \o/
<pitti> ok, thank you for the summary
<Keybuk>  - pitti promoted to technical lead
<tedg> Do you know how the progress on hiring those managers is going?  Is it something likely to be this week, this month, this year?
<Keybuk> tedg: for the desktop experience team, Mark has somebody in mind, but he plans to blog about the team for a month or so, and see if he can get interesting replies from interesting people that may be more suited
<Keybuk> for the distro team managers, a few candidates have been interviewed so far, and some show promise
<Keybuk> I don't know much about the marketing team's hiring
<Keybuk> good time for questions if anyone's got any :-)
<Riddell> when you say moving to platform team, that should presumably now read moving to foundations team
<Keybuk> err?
<Keybuk> no?
<pitti> will take a while for us to adapt :)
<Keybuk> did that get renamed?
<pitti> Keybuk: yes, I think
<Riddell> it seems to be renamed
<Keybuk> when did that happen?  I missed a mail
<Riddell> we're all platform now
<mvo> oh? name change?
<MacSlow> I thought that discussion form the sprint was more of a joke
<pitti> Keybuk: this week's pla^foundation team report
<pitti> Riddell: oh, platform has a new meaning now?
<Keybuk> ahhh
<mpt> Not to be confused with Launchpad's Foundations team
<Keybuk> mpt: I suspect the naming is intended to match
<Keybuk> so the distro team is now the ubuntu platform team?
<Keybuk> and the ubuntu platform team is now the ubuntu foundations team?
<Riddell> Canonical Distro team now Ubuntu Platform team I believe
<pitti> argh
<pitti> that could just be "ubuntu" team
<Keybuk> shouldn't the desktop team now be the ubuntu architecture team? :)
 * pitti ponders introducing SQL-like ID numbers, should they change again in 3 months
<tedg> Desktop Experience is going to be Ubuntu Facade Team ;)
<seb128> could we get moving, there is quite some points still on the agenda ;-)
<MacSlow> tedg, I prefer "Bling Brigade" ;)
<Keybuk> tedg: see, people read suggestions like that, and run with them
<seb128> (and I might add some if we don't overrun)
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> let's get moving
<Keybuk> sorry, slightly distracted by things moving under me
<Keybuk> mvo raised a concern about the length of his own activity report
<Keybuk> which seemed to be a good item, how long to people think they should be?
<mvo> well, that was not really meant as a agenda item
<Keybuk> what content do you like to read in them?
<Keybuk> (do you read other people's? :p)
<mvo> but I'm curious what people think, I noticed that my reports are kind of verbose
<seb128> mvo: they are nice to read ;-)
<pitti> mvo: I read them, too, but I think you should drop some details, about every bug and so
<MacSlow> mvo, is avoids to have to ask questions :)
<pitti> spec progress is great, and I'd keep that
<pitti> mvo: btw, I have packagekit commit access, so I can rely some commits, especially if they are specific to apt
<pitti> s/rely/relay/
<Keybuk> from my POV. I find single paragraph summaries for each major item (spec or ongoing responsibility) works quite well
<pitti> hm, I specifically don't mention ongoing responsibility
<mvo> pitti: I have access too, I just need to get around commiting it and making git happy (that is in itself a challange)
<mvo> but thanks :)
<pitti> since it would be quite dull for writing/reading "email, archive maintenance, MIR, SRU" every week?
<Keybuk> pitti: by that, I mean things like jockey
<pitti> mvo: good luck, haven't fought with branches yet, just checked them out
<Keybuk> where you may not have a spec, but you might do some large improvement
<pitti> Keybuk: ah, ok
<Keybuk> for mvo it'd be things like synaptic
<mvo> pitti: thanks, I will need it :)
<pitti> Keybuk: I usually mention that, yes
<pitti> since it's non-"chores"
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> roadmap update
<mvo> Keybuk: interessting point, I will consider that
<Keybuk> https://wiki.canonical.com/DistroTeam/Desktop/8.10
<Keybuk> could everybody over the next day or so add a paragraph or so to each of their items there with an update on progress
<Keybuk> and in particular, what's done and not done from a Feature Freeze point of view
<Keybuk> err
<Keybuk> paragraph _in_the_spec_ :p
<MacSlow> Keybuk, I assume I should add a section about the state of the login-experience there?!
<pitti> so, not on the /8.10 wiki page
<pitti> IMHO current status belongs into the whiteboard
<Keybuk> MacSlow: no, it's not on my roadmap - it's on Mark's ;)
<seb128> pitti: I do nothing out of bugs, updating GNOME and archive admin tasks, do I still need to write activity reports? ;-)
<Keybuk> pitti: whiteboard is fine too, not on the /8.10 wiki page
<MacSlow> Keybuk, does that have a page?
<Keybuk> seb128: interesting things in new GNOME releases, interesting bugs
<pitti> MacSlow: it should have a blueprint?
<MacSlow> pitti, it has nad a spec
<Keybuk> MacSlow: no, but update the blueprint
<MacSlow> ok
<pitti> MacSlow: "nad" == "had" or "not"?
<Keybuk> seb128: you had some additional items?
<MacSlow> pitti, it has a blueprint and spec
<pitti> ahm, "nad" == "and"
<seb128> Keybuk: some topics to raise for discussion
 * pitti shuold train more letter shuffling
<MacSlow> :)
<Keybuk> seb128: go for it
<Keybuk> we have 13 minutes
<seb128> one being empathy against pidgin
<seb128> since GNOME accepted empathy in their desktop seed, should we give it a try?
<seb128> we are not in feature freeze yet
<seb128> maybe everybody could give it a try this week and comment next week on it?
<Keybuk> seb128: with which set of telepathy backends?
<Keybuk> I use empathy for day-to-day jabber and salut, but not MSN
<seb128> Keybuk: what is recommended, gabble and salut
<seb128> we should test msn too if possible, I expect that's what users run the most nowadays
<mvo> so empathy would only replace parts of pidgin? some protocols?
<seb128> mvo: it can use libpurple so do everything pidgin is doing
<seb128> jabber should be better, it does video for example
<Keybuk> seb128: I think we should try it - maybe post instructions to ubuntu-devel calling for a trial?
<mpt> Should I write up a usability comparison?
<seb128> Keybuk: alright
<seb128> mpt: yes please
<pitti> seb128: I'll test ICQ and jabber, sure; apt-get install empathy?
<seb128> pitti: yes
<pitti> seb128: does empathy have video chat capabilities already?
<pitti> IOW, could it already replace ekiga?
<pitti> well, I'll find out
<seb128> pitti: yes, the jabber provider should do that
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<seb128> ok, next questions is gnome-session
<pitti> seb128: no ICQ in the protocol list...
<pitti> telepathy-haze - A telepathy connection manager that use libpurple
<Keybuk> seb128: yup?
<pitti> ah
<seb128> pitti: no, you need to use the libpurple integration for that, let's discuss this out of the meeting
<seb128> new gnome-session sucks at the moment
<seb128> and doesn't seem to be moving fast
<seb128> I'm pondering if we should revert to 2.20, though that's still a bit early
<pitti> indeed, totally broken session management, etc.
<pitti> (or, rather, absent)
<seb128> one thing is that we need to decide what to do for the logout dialog
<pitti> and still no compiz by default, right?
<pitti> oh
<pitti> mpt: designing a logout dialog that doesn't suck is a huge UI task, I believe
<seb128> if we keep the new version we need to take a decision, because the old patch doesn't apply and the dialog needs to be rewritten
<seb128> and with all I've to do I doubt I'll be able to do that soon
<tedg> I think with the "new" FUSA applet we'll have a set of menu items for the various logouts.
<mpt> pitti, I completed that a couple of years ago. The hard part is implementing it. :-)
<tedg> So we shouldn't need a dialog per se.
<Keybuk> tedg: what is the status of that wrt FF?
<pitti> tedg: we shouldn't make fusa mandatory, though
<seb128> new fusa applet?
<tedg> Keybuk: My plan is to have it done.
<tedg> seb128: Patch to to IM status and session management into the applet.
<tedg> Not "new", really "patched".
<Keybuk> seb128: I guess we need a list of items we consider essential for session
<seb128> ah, I don't use the applet and I expect quite some users don't
<Keybuk> to compare new/old gnome session against
<Keybuk> I know that Matt keeps asking where the old logout dialog went, and when is it coming back?
<seb128> Keybuk: well, the real question is "do we want one dialog having all the actions, or should we consider the 2 dialogs upstream way"
<seb128> if we want one dialog, do we want the old one we had or something based on what upstream will get (what opensuse has now)
<mvo> what is that?
<seb128> and then, who would be available to write the dialog ;-)
<mvo> two dialog? so first logout, then shutdown?
<seb128> mvo: no, what you are in intrepid now
<seb128> s/are/have
<Keybuk> we've had one dialog with all of the options until now
<seb128> mvo: system, logout and system, shutdown
<Keybuk> we should keep that one dialog until we make a decision not to
<Keybuk> and that decision should be on usability, etc. grounds
<pitti> Keybuk: TBH, the old dialog sucked as much as the two dull current ones, it just looked a little better
 * Keybuk looks at mpt
 * pitti votes for two dialog
<seb128> Keybuk: there is nothing to keep, the code which was patched doesn't exist in the rewrite
<pitti> I never quite liked the "Do something to my computer" with 7 options thingy
<seb128> so we need to rewrite a dialog
<seb128> I don't fancy to rewrite the old one first, then think and decide to drop what we should rewrotte
<tedg> I guess, are we going to have two ways to logout?  If we assume that some people aren't running the FUSA applet.
<mpt> Keybuk, I've done the spec for this. If anyone comes to me and says "We can't do part X because of Y", then I can revise it.
<seb128> s/should/just
<Keybuk> sounds like we should take that to the mailing list
<Keybuk> since there's lots of pieces of decision
<seb128> tedg: I don't use fusa, I'm the only user on this laptop
<seb128> Keybuk: ubuntu-devel or ubuntu-desktop list?
<Keybuk> seb128: ubuntu-devel has more subscribers
<tedg> seb128: Would you if it was your IM status also?
 * pitti doesn't use fusa either, waste of precious panel space
<seb128> tedg: I know my IM status, it's in the notification area, I don't need an applet for that ;-)
<tedg> Keybuk: It might be a good discussion to make -desktop more relevant though :)
<Keybuk> tedg: also true
<tedg> seb128: Good point, need to patch that notification mess out ;)
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> we're out of time now
 * persia knows the meeting started a bit late, but hopes it doesn't run over too much
<Keybuk> anybody have any last minute urgent items?
<seb128> persia: it's done
<seb128> persia: and we still have 1 minute ;-)
<persia> seb128: You've at least a minute left
<Keybuk> no? good! ok, thanks everyone!
<seb128> thanks
<mvo> thanks
<tedg> thanks
<pitti> thanks everyone
<persia> OK.  Who's here for the Java meeting today?
<MacSlow> thanks
<robilad> me!
<persia> Hurrah!
<persia> Koon: ?  slytherin?  doko?
<Koon> o/
<persia> OK.  We've a *very* short agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
<persia> Basically, just a rundown of the Roadmap.
<persia> So, first up: robilad: How goes the effort to breakdown the tasks involved in integrating Java into the server stack?
<robilad> i didn't get much done on that, unfortunately, after we agreed that maven is a req
<persia> robilad: Is there anything other than maven that you want?
<persia> application servers, specific tools, missing libraries, etc?
<Koon> robilad: one other area of concern is headless running, so that we can have Java server programs that do not pull all of X in
<robilad> i think maven is the largest hurdle atm - regardless of the app server.
<Koon> we need to fix the depends of most java libraries
<robilad> yeah, that's something koon's started poking at in the bug database
<persia> maven feels like a tool to build stuff, but I think we want to get a list of what gets built with maven so we can begin to prioritise.
<Koon> robilad: is there a definitive way of saying a library doesn't require a full JRE ?
<robilad> i'll poke the glassfish team for their own dep list -
<persia> There's not much time until FeatureFreeze, and we don't want to have a delay in moving forward once we have maven.
<robilad> though if you read their dev list, they are stuggling with maven daily, too. :/
<robilad> feature freeze is on?
<persia> 28th August.
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule
<robilad> ok - i'll dig into analyzing some deps, then.
<persia> robilad: Cool.  Do you think you'll have time to craft a task list for the next meeting?
<robilad> there is no definitive way of pinning down libratry deps
<robilad> since trhrough reflection any java code could in theory call any other code
<persia> (or at least a draft task list)
<slytherin> Can anyone give tell us in brief what is current state of either tomcat or glassfish?
<robilad> if the code doesn't use reflection, you can run if through javap, dump it, and scan it for references to class it uses, though, and build a transitive closure that way.
<robilad> persia: yes.
<persia> That's probably a good start, and enough to let us make a guess as to whether we can reach intrepid.
<persia> Thanks.
<robilad> i'm back in hamburg after two weeks of travel, so ... phew. ;)
<persia> OK.  Next up: slytherin: how is the progress of getting more of the stack into universe?
<robilad> Koon: but for code that does not use reflection (java.lang.reflect & Class.forName, etc.): yes.
<slytherin> persia: jboss had kept me busy. But I guess I will move on to 'MoveToUniverse' task over weekend.
<persia> slytherin: jboss is in, or still FTBFS?
<slytherin> persia: still FTBFS. Haven't got time for last 2-3 days to debug.
<slytherin> I think I will upload libjboss-cache1-java to latest upstream version sometime next week and see if it builds.
<persia> slytherin: OK.  For the MoveToUniverse, even if you can't make much progress, if you could get together a task list, maybe some of the rest of us could help as well.
<slytherin> persia: Sure. That will be done by tomorrow.
<persia> (I'd at least like to see us catch up to Debian)
<persia> Excellent.
<Koon> what version of jboss is that ?
<slytherin> persia: I will add the packages  that I think should be evaluated on the MoveToUniverse page.
<persia> slytherin: OK.  I'll take a look at that page on Saturday and see what I can push.
<persia> Moving on unless there is more JBoss discussion (as there seems to be no response).
<persia> Koon: Where are we with maven?  Still with the draft implementation needing review and assistance with the .pom files?
<Koon> I drafted most of the spec, it's waiting for comments
<persia> robilad: Now that you're back from your travel marathon, would you have time to review/comment the spec?
<Koon> on the subject of implementation, unfortunately I cannot commit any more time at that atm, so we might need someone to pick it up
<Koon> I still have to write the email to ubuntu-java to explain the work done so far
<robilad> persia: yeah, looked over it, like it
<Koon> it's mostly the jpp implementation + a few things to improve to be more Debian-like
<persia> OK.  Does anyone have any issues with the spec, or shall we go ahead with it, pending availablility of someone to implement?
<Koon> The patched maven2 is ready for someone to test it and bring it to the next step :)
<robilad> nice - ppa?
<Koon> yep - https://launchpad.net/~tcarrez/+archive
<persia> Koon: Is there a bug against maven, or does it need REVU?
<Koon> persia: it's not complete yet -- still has those funnt looking Fedira directories
<Koon> Fedora
<persia> Ah.  Still needs cleanup then :(
<Koon> it's ready for some fake testing
<Koon> set up the directories, populate them with artificial POMs
<Koon> get a basic maven project and try to have it build from source
<persia> OK, so at this point we mostly need some maven users to check it out and make sure it mostly works?
<Koon> yes, to validate that the patches are even working.. because the only thing I did is to integrate them in a package
<Koon> it's clearly not ready for any REVU :)
<Koon> it would be nice to have some maven guy to set up the basic helloworld project
<robilad> any simple maven project we could try it with?
<Koon> I don't know so much about maven
<slytherin> how about testing it with struts 1.3
<persia> slytherin: Does that use maven?
<Koon> just remember that you should artificially deploy the poms and depmap fragments that would have been installed with your JARs
<slytherin> Koon: Ubuntu doesn't have jpp right? So how does your patched maven work exactly?
<slytherin> persia: yes, the main reason why it has not landed in Debian/Ubuntu
<Koon> slytherin: it integrates the jpp patchset, which is just telling maven to llok into specific directories and depmap on your system, if called with a specific -D arg
<robilad> Koon: i poked paulcager about pinging you on #ubuntu.java about it
<slytherin> Koon: so it means it will simply look in /usr/share/java and if jar files are not found then exit with error right?
<robilad> he's the debian maven2 guy, afaict.
<Koon> so you can install it from the PPA, create by hand the expected directories (like the dirty /etc/maven/depmap-fragment) and put into it what would have been installed by the library if it was maven2-jpp-compliant
<Koon> slytherin: it's a bit more complicated than that
<Koon> slytherin: did you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec ?
<slytherin> Koon: yes, but didn't fully understand it.
<Koon> slytherin: I don't explain it so well. Deepak explanation was way better, if you can retrieve it from the logs
<slytherin> Koon: Ok. I will check again.
<Koon> it sounds complicated (and it is) but it's probably the only way around the maven problem
<Koon> looks like a pile of hack-ish workarounds to make maven2 behave
<persia> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/07/24/%23ubuntu-meeting.html has the discussion from dbhole
<robilad> something we have to go through, I am afraid.
<Koon> robilad: or convince all maven-using upstream to drop it :)
<Koon> robilad: so far almost everyone I contacted in large Java projects seem to question the use of it
<slytherin> Koon: so does your package works in complete offline mode? I mean 'new-go-online-no-matter-what'? And can you paste your patch for review somewhere?
<robilad> aeh - an FSF campaign about the maven trap? ;)
<robilad> i'd be happier with convicing the maven upstream to get such patches in and improve their tool.
<lenards> amen
<robilad> i haven't spoken with brettporter in a while, though.
<Koon> slytherin: yes. As for the patch, it's just the Fedora patches, fixed to apply on our maven2. You can review it in aforementioned PPA
<robilad> and i'm kind of hopiing that jvanzyl's move to eclipse with his company around maven will give the project a bit more ... focus.
<Koon> I repeat, the package in that PPA is not a good package, it's a PoC
<Koon> just to help someone getting started with testing
<Koon> I could not find time so far to bring it to the next necessary step
<robilad> there's even been talk about maving getting signatures for jars recently on the maven lists. ;)
<robilad> and security, and waht not.
<persia> While that's a nifty idea, it makes it even harder to properly support using maven as a build tool within a distribution.
<robilad> anyway - my experience is similar to Koon's, talking about maven is a bonding experience of rants ;)
 * lenards chortles
<robilad> persia: i know - i keep telling them that security and recycling their current archive don't mix, but I don't think I'm getting through. anyway.
<persia> Right.  On that note, let's move on.
<persia> robilad: It's an education process :)
<robilad> been at is since 2003 ;)
<persia> So, anyone have any other items they want to add to the agenda at the last moment?
<persia> No?  OK.  We've had poor luck with this recently, but who would be willing to write up the minutes?
<robilad> me
<robilad> now that I'm back here again. ;)
<persia> robilad: Thank you :)  We've missed your excellence in that regard.
<persia> OK.  See you all next week.  Quick action item review:
<persia> robilad will prepare some information on next steps post-maven for the next meeting
<persia> slytherin will update the MoveToUniverse page tomorrow with current candidates
<persia> persia will push MoveToUniverse candidates on Saturday
<persia> Koon will post a summary of the PoC maven-jpp stuff to the mailing list this week
<persia> DId I miss anything?
<robilad> i don't think so  - thanks for leading the meeting, persia.
<persia> Thanks for attending.
<Koon> Thanks persia !
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 00:00 UTC: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubottu> emgent: Schedule for Europe/Rome: 08 Aug 02:00: Americas Board | 08 Aug 06:00: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 06:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 16:00: Ubuntu Java Team
<slangasek> Keybuk: I'm not on the MIR team, but I'm not aware of a backlog?
<VdA> hi
<Mez> @now
<ubottu> Mez: Current time in Etc/UTC: August 07 2008, 19:10:57 - Next meeting: Americas Board in 4 hours 49 minutes
<nellery> @schedule Vancouver
<ubottu> nellery: Schedule for America/Vancouver: 07 Aug 17:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 21:00: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 08:00: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 21:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 05:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Java Team
<nizarus> @schedule
<ubottu> nizarus: Schedule for Etc/UTC: 08 Aug 00:00: Americas Board | 08 Aug 04:00: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Java Team
<pwnguin> @schedule Chicago
<ubottu> pwnguin: Schedule for America/Chicago: 07 Aug 19:00: Americas Board | 07 Aug 23:00: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 10:00: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 23:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 07:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 09:00: Ubuntu Java Team
<pwnguin> is that right?
<nellery> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1614
<nellery> if my conversions are correct, it should be
<pwnguin> it want last time =/
<keffie_jayx> @schedule caracas
<ubottu> keffie_jayx: Schedule for America/Caracas: 07 Aug 19:30: Americas Board | 07 Aug 23:30: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 10:30: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 23:30: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 07:30: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 09:30: Ubuntu Java Team
<nizarus> @schedule Loco
<ubottu> nizarus: Error: Unknown timezone: Loco - Full list: http://tinyurl.com/4vyvp8
<nizarus> @schedule Tunis
<ubottu> nizarus: Schedule for Africa/Tunis: 08 Aug 02:00: Americas Board | 08 Aug 06:00: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 06:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 16:00: Ubuntu Java Team
<j_ack> @schedule Berlin
<ubottu> j_ack: Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 08 Aug 02:00: Americas Board | 08 Aug 06:00: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 17:00: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 06:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 16:00: Ubuntu Java Team
<nizarus> hi boredandblogging, can i ask for an advice ?
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-08-08
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Americas Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team
<mrooney> Well hello, then.
<nellery> so I'm guessing ubottu is correct today?
<Joeb454> lol well I thought it was tomorrow...
<pedro_> yeah the 00:00 UTC tends to confuse people
<nellery> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1614
<Joeb454> well given I'm from the UK, it's even more confusing
<effie_jayx> 5 minutes
<nellery> good luck to all applicants!
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<effie_jayx> vorian,  ping
<Joeb454> ty
<Old_Soldier> thanks nick :)
<vorian> ahoy!
<effie_jayx> vorian,  ready for meeting time
<pedro_> ahoj !
<gQuigs> ty
<mrooney> nellery: thanks :)
<jacob> hallo all
<effie_jayx> hey all
<mrooney> hello
 * emmajane waves
<gQuigs> hi
<Joeb454> o/
<tedg> hello
<pedro_> Welcome to the Americas Board meeting everybody!
<vorian> it may be a min or two while we round up a couple more people :)
 * nellery says hi
<pedro_> in the meantime, the list of applicants can be found here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
 * Joeb454 says hi to all
<pedro_> so yeah let's wait a bit
<pedro_> is Caesar around?
<vorian> hi _MMA_
<_MMA_> yo
<vorian> ok, while we wait, applicants please prep an intro, so we can speed things up a bit :)
<_MMA_> So who's chairing this thing?
<vorian> you!
<pedro_> exactly
<pedro_> ;-)
<_MMA_> nope.
<pleia2> hello
<vorian> heya pleia2 :)
<vorian> i'll do it then
<vorian> shall we start?
<effie_jayx> vorian,  yep
<effie_jayx> let's get this one going
<vorian> great!
<vorian> paultag: looks like you're up (unless Caesar goes by a new nick now)
<paultag> mkay
<paultag> Hey all, I am PaulTag ( Paul Tagliamotne ), and I am a Linux user since 2003, have dabbled in Linux Programming since 2004.
<paultag> I have been employed as a Software Engineer, working with Linux since 2007. I have switched to Ubuntu circa 7.10, and have been in the Beginners Team since September. I would love to become MOTU, and feel like Ubuntu is the Distro for me, and I would love to do anything I can.
<paultag> my wiki is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Paultag#preview
<paultag> ( heh, minus #preview )
<paultag> also, Tagliamonte, sorry, I am typing too fast :)
<vorian> :)
<vorian> paultag: tell me a bit about what you are doing on the MOTU track
<paultag> vorian: I have been working with application design, and working on actually writing software for Linux, but as of yet, I do not have the resouces to take it further
<paultag> vorian: I can package as well as code in several languages, and I am a CS major currently in college
<vorian> great :)
<vorian> i noticed you are a DD
<paultag> vorian: I am not
<paultag> vorian: this was for our internal OS
<paultag> vorian: it was based off of Debian
<vorian> might want to change that line on your wiki page then :)
<pleia2> paultag: I see your general foss work is very strong (bravo!), can you explain more about what you do specifically for ubuntu, I see your testimonials are primarily from your work with the beginners forum
<pwnguin> vorian: are you looking at the right wiki?
<effie_jayx> paultag, to add to pleia2's Q, please do elaborate in the projects (Sabre and Qube)
<paultag> pleia2: indeed -- I really love the Distro that is Ubuntu, and I really would love to further the Distro, as well as contribute upstream
<vorian> pwnguin: ah, no
<paultag> Sabre and Qube:
<paultag> Sabre was a plugin that I decided to write for amaroK
<paultag> it watches for a Bluetooth enabled device, then the computer reacts ( i.e. Music Stops, Marked away on IRC, as well as custom commands ) and is supported across all DEs
<Joeb454> :)
<paultag> Joeb454: was active on Sabre as well :)
<pedro_> paultag: may you tell us a bit about your work with the Ubuntu Beginners team and what are your future plans for it?
<paultag> pedro_: I have been active in the team, and plan to continue my work as long as I can, the Team leader bodhi_zazen is here, as well as some of the team mates
<paultag> as well
<effie_jayx> paultag,  apart from the work in the forums have you had any contact with other ubunteros in your are... (LoCo work?)
<paultag> effie_jayx: yes, but I am at college -- I plan to get active after I move back to MA
<paultag> RE: Beginners Team:
<bodhi_zazen> paultag, is quite active and respected in the BT, he has assisted with education, of us all in fact, particularly with coding and packaging
<effie_jayx> paultag,  great
<pleia2> paultag: link to your forum user page?
<paultag> I am heading the Education group, to help members, if they need it within the group
<paultag> pleia2: its not very active, hold on
<paultag> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=500613
<pleia2> paultag: 64 posts?
<paultag> pleia2: yes, most of my work is helping the team behind the scene
<SEJeff> Sorry am I late? I thought the meeting was tomorrow for ubuntu membership
<paultag> pleia2: i.e. issues that are not a quick hit this button
<pwnguin> SEJeff: it's tomorrow in UTC =/
<pleia2> paultag: gotcha, can you explain some of the work you've been doing behind the scenes?
<SEJeff> pwnguin, Ok just making sure
<pwnguin> menaing, right now
<SEJeff> Gotcha
<paultag> pleia2: sure, the Education group that I am heading allows our team mates to get and further their education across almost all the OS, we have a few mentors that help with anyone who requests it
<paultag> pleia2: as well, we are working on a new structure for the team that I am working on
<paultag> pleia2: organization, that is
<pleia2> paultag: any kind of wiki/documentation you can point us to of this project in progress?
<paultag> pleia2: sure, hold on a second
<paultag> pleia2: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Beginners/Team/Structure
<paultag> pleia2: I have worked closely with Rocket2DMn on this
<Rocket2DMn> o/ hi
<effie_jayx> paultag,  I feel your FOSS work is great
<vorian> anyone here to cheer for paultag?
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<Rocket2DMn> WOOT WOOT paultag !
 * Old_Soldier cheers for paul
<bodhi_zazen> even if he is a geek, LOL
<paultag> hahah, thanks bodhi_zazen :)
 * Joeb454 cheers
<Joeb454> I did on the wiki though
<effie_jayx> paultag,  I do believe the beginner's team is a very important Ubuntu work...
<paultag> effie_jayx: as do I :)
<vorian> I'm happy to give my +1
<effie_jayx> +1
<pleia2> +1
<vorian> (and encourage some /join #kubuntu-devel action)
<pedro_> a +1 from me also
<_MMA_> +1
<paultag> vorian: noted
<vorian> great :)
<vorian> welcome aboard
<paultag> :) Thank You all!
<bodhi_zazen> WooT
<pleia2> congrats paultag :)
<nellery> congrats paultag!!!
<Rocket2DMn> congrats paultag !
<jacob> congrats paultag!
<Old_Soldier> Woot! Gratz paultag
<pedro_> congratulations paultag, welcome ;-)
<Joeb454> congrats paultag
<SEJeff> Nice work paultag !
<emmajane> congrats paultag
<paultag> ty all!
<vorian> SEJeff: you're up!
<nekohayo> +1
<SEJeff> Ok well my name is Jeff
<effie_jayx> paultag,  congratulations and may this also be a commitment to more work with that very importan team..
<SEJeff> I'm a Systems Administrator by trade, geek by choice
<ds305> way to go paultabg
<SEJeff> Ubuntu fits my philosophy of making Linux appeal to the masses
<SEJeff> Not everyone in the world can afford to Pay for windows or OS X. They should have something just as good or better
<SEJeff> That is why I contribute to Ubuntu
<SEJeff> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JeffSchroeder/Contributions
<SEJeff> Most of my contributions are more towards what I do as a job
 * Maddeth is here to cheer but was afk when asked
<SEJeff> Like the recent patches for getting ovirt (http://ovirt.org) to work on Ubuntu or the really exciting new filesystem btrfs
<SEJeff> It had issues with apparmor that have now been fixed
<SEJeff> And I've worked on security in Ubuntu a bit with kees, trulux
<SEJeff> ANd I have a company meeting :-/
<SEJeff> Have an emergency and have to run
<SEJeff> sorry
<vorian> SEJeff: ok, we may be here for a while
<pedro_> no worries
<vorian> good luck
<pedro_> take your time
<SEJeff> maybe 20 minutes?
<SEJeff> brb
<pleia2> sure
<nekohayo> SEJeff has my vote, he's an awesome sysadmin and teacher :)
<pleia2> mine too
<pleia2> hehe
<pleia2> mrooney?
<vorian> we'll postpone him for now ...
<mrooney> Okay, hello everyone!
<mrooney> I'm Michael Rooney (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikeRooney). I have been a bugsquad member for about a year, and a bugcontrol member for 6 months or so (https://launchpad.net/~michael).
<mrooney> I triage incoming bugs in Ubuntu every day, as well attempt to push progress forward in areas I find important (typically from a QA/Usability standpoint).
<mrooney> I would like to improve the "out of the box" experience of Ubuntu for beginners and advanced users alike, and plan to get into packaging/development soon!
<mrooney> So that I can extend my triaging work into directly fixing issues :)
<pleia2> excellent work, mrooney
<pedro_> yay!
<mrooney> I also wrote and maintain EeeBotu, the bug announcing bot in #ubuntu-bugs-announce, which has been going steady for over 2 months.
<vorian> yes, much love
 * pedro_ hugs mrooney for that
<pleia2> (also, RIT - w00t!_
<pwnguin> is the source and config available for that bot?
<nellery> I support mrooney 100% for membership... I often run into him while triaging, and he deserves membership very much!
<mrooney> pwnguin: I have yet to license it, but I plan to make an EeeBotu wiki page
<mrooney> which would have the source, status, and other useful information
<pleia2> looking forward to that :)
<vorian> wow, your work speaks for itself. awesome work
<mrooney> thanks!
<pedro_> i don't need to ask anything, seriously
<vorian> I'm more than happy to give my +1
<pwnguin> mrooney: i almost wonder if perhaps a bzr branch would help keep bot infrastructure in the hands of the community rather than individuals. but thats not an issue for membership, clearly ;)
<effie_jayx> I don't either
<effie_jayx> +1
<pleia2> me too +1
<pedro_> a big +1 from me !
<mrooney> pwnguin: I considered a launchpad project but it seems overkill, though it would be nice to allow others to commit, it is probably a wise idea
<mrooney> No questions, anyone? Haha
<effie_jayx> I am happy with your work :D
<effie_jayx> mr_pouit,  it is unanimous :D
<nellery> congrats mrooney!!
<effie_jayx> mrooney,  welcome aboard
<pleia2> congrats mrooney :)
<mrooney> thanks so much everyone!
<vorian> welcome aboard mrooney :)
<bodhi_zazen> congrats mr_pouit
<pedro_> yeah congrats mrooney keep up the awesome work ;-)
 * Old_Soldier cheers for mrooney 
<bodhi_zazen> oops, lol
<emmajane> congrats mrooney
<_MMA_> +1
<effie_jayx> mrooney,  keep up the great work
<bodhi_zazen> congrats mrooney
<_MMA_> Sorry
<pleia2> Old_Soldier: you're up!
<vorian> oh noes, it's Old_Soldier!
<_MMA_> (getting kids ready for bed)
 * Old_Soldier grins
 * bodhi_zazen hides
<Old_Soldier> Greetings everyone, my real name is Charles Davis. I'm 42 years old and I live in Oklahoma.
<Old_Soldier>  I am a member of the Ubuntu Forums Staff and part of the Beginner Team. My major focus as a staff member is to give friendly helpful support while maintaining the peace on the forums. I'm also active in the Ubuntu Documentation Students team and The Ubuntu Wiki Team on LP.
<Old_Soldier> My future goals are to become a Documentation committer and eventually become a MOTU contributer.
<Old_Soldier> wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Old_soldier  lp:https://launchpad.net/~oldsoldier-gmail forum profile:http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=487991
<jacob> bug cheers for Old_Soldier. he's obviously been a major help to the Beginners team, and definitely a welcome addition to the forum staff. :)
 * vor1 gives Old_Soldier 800% support
<jacob> s/bug/big/. >.<
 * paultag cheers for Old_Soldier
<paultag> one of the few on the team everyone respects
 * nellery cheers for Old_Soldier for his work towards the Doc Team!
<effie_jayx> Old_Soldier,  you have quite a fan base...
<bodhi_zazen> Old_Soldier is wise and respected by the entire team
<effie_jayx> Old_Soldier,  what has taken you so long to get membership?
<bodhi_zazen> He brings maturity and wisdom, he has my full support
<Joeb454> I give my +1 for Old_Soldier, he's helpful with both Ubuntu & otherwise
<Rocket2DMn> A big +1 for Old_Soldier 's expansion into other areas of Ubuntu
<pleia2> Old_Soldier: thank you for providing such an extensive wiki page, this is fantastic :)
<vorian> Old_Soldier: been very busy with bugs i see
<effie_jayx> ok
<Old_Soldier> effie_jayx: I felt i wasn't prepared but bodhi_zazen convinced us to apply
<effie_jayx> Old_Soldier,  why not prepared? what work do you think is needed to be a member?
<effie_jayx> and what have you done for the Ubuntu project as a whole?
<Old_Soldier> effie_jayx: I felt that I wanted to participate more with the doc team before I applied.
<Old_Soldier> I have contributed some patches in the documents and have been working with other BT members on the Wiki
<Old_Soldier> I've also started an experimental project to put Ubuntu forums tutorial in yelp format for offline use
<effie_jayx> Old_Soldier,  right...
<effie_jayx> Old_Soldier,  would you consider your work with other people in hte ubuntu prject not enough then ;) ?
<pedro_> Old_Soldier: that's nice, do you have some code around for doing that?
<vorian> btw, the BT documentation is the best (unexpected) side effect of the BT
<vorian> i am really happy to see how much documentation comes from the BT
<bodhi_zazen> thanks vorian
<Old_Soldier> pedro_: i have a bzr branch for the docbooks
<Old_Soldier> it's similar to the ubuntu-doc branch I also have the binaries and source available in PPA
<pedro_> Old_Soldier: cool! do you have it hosted at lp or just in your disk?
<pedro_> niiice, what's the name?
 * pedro_ excited
<Old_Soldier> boucft. a moment and i'll linky you
<vorian> I'm happy to give my +1
<pleia2> +1 from me too
<vorian> well done Old_Soldier
<pedro_> woohoo
<pleia2> very good work Old_Soldier :)
<pedro_> yes a +1 from me, thanks for the contributions Old_Soldier
<effie_jayx> +1 from me Old_Soldier
<Old_Soldier> https://launchpad.net/boucft
<pedro_> and thanks for the link ;-)
<_MMA_> +1
<pedro_> great, welcome aboard Old_Soldier!
<vorian> welcome aboard Old_Soldier :)
<jacob> congratulations Old_Soldier!!!
<paultag> Old_Soldier: Congrats!!! You Deserve it!
<bodhi_zazen> Woot
<emmajane> congrats Old_Soldier
<nellery> congrats Old_Soldier!
<Old_Soldier> :) thanks everyone I appreciate the support
<Rocket2DMn> congrats Old_Soldier , much deserved!
<vor1> Old_Soldier does indeed deserve it
<pedro_> is Hellow around?
<pedro_> tick tack tick tack
<Rocket2DMn> no hes not, sorry
<effie_jayx> Hello Hellow?
<pedro_> ok no worries
<pleia2> Joeb454: you're up!
<vorian> Joeb454: you're up
<vorian> :)
<Joeb454> oh no :P
<effie_jayx> Joeb454: you are up
<pedro_> no? let's skip him then!
<Joeb454> OK my wiki page, LP page & Forums profile
<pedro_> just kidding
<Joeb454> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Joeb454
<Joeb454> https://edge.launchpad.net/~joeb454
<Joeb454> http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=373057
<Joeb454> and I'm Joeb454. 19 & from the UK - I don't sleep - clearly. And I'm one of the new forum staff members, I enjoying helping the new people feel welcomed into Ubuntu & it's community. The forums are - in my opinion - a fantastic resource for newcomers and veterans to Ubuntu, and I try and help wherever possible
<bodhi_zazen> Joeb454, is a machine
<bodhi_zazen> He is going to wear out LaRoza, lol
<Joeb454> lol, let me finish pasting bodhi_zazen, though thanks :)
<Joeb454> Currently, my main area of contribution is the Ubuntu Forums, though I also promote Ubuntu within my local community whenever I can - I've assisted a few of people from University to switch. As well as this, I've recently been trying to get more involved with Launchpad Answers as well as the Forums.
<Joeb454> In future I hope to be able to contribute more directly to Open-Source and the software it spawns - i.e. by programming and patching bugs etc, though that will likely come after University, when I should hopefully have a little more time.
<jacob> bodhi_zazen: he is ;)
<Joeb454> ty jacob
<jacob> Joeb454 is another awesome addition to the forum staff. always willing to go out there and help out. big props.
 * vor1 thinks Joeb454 is trying to supplant LaRoza as Head Borg.
<Old_Soldier> he will!
<Joeb454> shh!!
 * st33med duct tapes Old_Soldier's mouth to stop secret
<vorian> Joeb454: so, what is the best part of contributing for you?
<Joeb454> personally, i love contributing on the forums, because I get that sense of knowing I've helped somebody
<paultag> side note: <plug> Joeb454: stops at nothing to contribute to a project -- he worked on Sabre with me, and he really pushed the project to where it is today </plug>
<Joeb454> though as I enjoy programming, I'd like to do more devel stuff, my experience with paultag working on sabre only strengthened my desire to contribute that way
<Joeb454> I just don't have enough time currently (or programming skill, I'm working on both though)
<pleia2> Joeb454: development looks to be a more long term goal - goals for the short term? continued work in the forums I'd hope :) anything else?
<Joeb454> yes definitely forums
<Joeb454> I'm keeping a keen eye on the Beginners Team as it goes from strength to strength
<Joeb454> I feel it's a great part of the community, working to help newcomers feel welcomed into it
<vorian> awesome
<Joeb454> i think it is :)
 * pleia2 makes note to talk to the Beginners Team about Ubuntu Classroom
<pleia2> does the beginners team have a mailing list?
<bodhi_zazen> BT want classroom
<Joeb454> +1 bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> we are starting with an internal education program
<Joeb454> and pleia2 I don't think it worked out when we tried it
<pedro_> Joeb454: regarding your work within your loco team, may you tell us a bit of it? what do you consider your top contribution to the team?
<bodhi_zazen> as it comes on line we want to contribute to classroom too
<pleia2> bodhi_zazen: Ubuntu Classroom is a more centralized program for all teams, we'll have to talk :)
<bodhi_zazen> :)
<Joeb454> pedro_, I'm not currently active in it, though I'm looking into it
<bodhi_zazen> BT is not ready ... yet, but interested
<pwnguin> Joeb454: there was a recent debacle about certain motherboards, that got way out of hand; how might we better educate new Ubuntu users about the Code of Conduct?
<Joeb454> I do however recommend Ubuntu to a lot of people when I think it would suite their needs
<pedro_> Joeb454: can i ask why not? not enough time?
<Joeb454> pedro_, yes mainly
<pedro_> alright
<Joeb454> pwnguin, get them to read it, and gently remind them about it via some sort of PM
<Joeb454> pedro_, I do help people with Ubuntu whenever I get the time, I guided a friend through the entire install via PM the other week :P
<vorian> that sounds like a treat, very impressive
<Joeb454> lol, he thought it was awesome
<pleia2> +1 from me - keep up the great work Joeb454 :)
<vorian> my vote is the same as _MMA_'s
<vorian> +1
<pedro_> haha
<vorian> :)
<Joeb454> pleia2, I'll try
<pedro_> +1 from here
<pleia2> (oh, and you're allowed to sleep sometimes ;))
<Joeb454> thanks :)
<Joeb454> pleia2, I call it "recharging" though
<vorian> (mma did give his +1, but had to leave)
<Joeb454> oh ok cool
<effie_jayx> +1 from me too
<Joeb454> \o/
<vorian> welcome aboard Joeb454 :)
<jacob> congrats Joeb454! :)
<paultag> Joeb454: Congrats!!!!
 * Old_Soldier thumps Joeb454 on the back Grats Joe!
<Rocket2DMn> congratulations Joeb454 !
<Joeb454> thanks a lot :)
<pleia2> welcome Joeb454!
<emmajane> congrats Joeb454
<Joeb454> except Old_Soldier, that hurt
<nellery> congrats Joeb454!
<Joeb454> ty :)
<pleia2> gQuigs: you now! :)
<gQuigs> My names is Bryan Quigley, and I have been active in the NJ Loco Team since 2006, volunteering at practically every event.
 * yoda_van cheers for gQuigs 
<harding> I cheer for gQuigs.  He's made significant contributions to the NJ Ubuntu LoCo; he's been a member of the team longer than anyone else and we'd be much less of a team, or maybe not a team at all, without him.
<vorian> Joeb454: nice user title btw
<bodhi_zazen> wOOt
<Joeb454> I may disappear soon, UK time etc.
<Joeb454> and ty vorian
<gQuigs> I mainly try to bring Ubuntu and FLOSS in general to the local community as best I can, with a side of triaging and lot's of ideas.
<gQuigs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gquigs
<gQuigs> https://launchpad.net/~gquigs
<pleia2> gQuigs volunteered at the Trenton Computer Festival Ubuntu table while I just wandered around and spent all my money :) he does great
<vorian> gQuigs: farmers market? what was that like?
<yoda_van> haha
<harding> :)
<paultag> haha
<gQuigs> that was interesting
<pleia2> there are pictures!
<vorian> i'm sure it was :)
<pedro_> gQuigs: do you have some photos we can see from the last event?
<gQuigs> sure
<mrooney> I just want to add that I really appreciate many of gQuigs brainstorm ideas!
<gQuigs> pedro_: define last event?
<harding> Farmer's Market: http://www.joeterranova.net/photos/September_Columbus/index.html
<harding> Last event, a LAN Party: http://www.joeterranova.net/2008/04/14/15_hours_in_my_basement/
<pedro_> gQuigs: last event you participate in with your loco team
<pedro_> ah nice, looking
 * vorian wishes irssi was playing nice atm
<pwnguin> gQuigs: do you feel that defectivebydesign's approach is in keeping with the code of conduct?
<gQuigs> that may have been TCF 08
<gQuigs> but gQuigs has a very bad memory
<effie_jayx> I find this participation very interesting... good LoCo work
<gQuigs> pwnguin: interesting question, which part of the CoC do you think it violates
<pwnguin> well, lets take the specific example of booking genius bar time
<pwnguin> http://www.defectivebydesign.org/apple-challenge
<effie_jayx> pwnguin,  could you discuss this out of a meeting ;)
<pwnguin> sure.
<effie_jayx> pwnguin,  thanks ;)
<vorian> gQuigs: i'm happy to give you my +1
<effie_jayx> gQuigs,  for your LoCo involvement and brave work at the Farm Expo ;D
<gQuigs> pwnguin:  I think it is fully covered under the CoC
<effie_jayx> +1
<pleia2> +1 from me, excellent loco work gQuigs :)
<pedro_> yeah a +1 here also, keep the loco work rocking
<vorian> welcome aboard gQuigs :)
<gQuigs> Thank You!
 * yoda_van cheers for gQuigs and jersey farmers makets ;)
<pedro_> congrats and welcome gQuigs
<harding> Congratulations, gQuigs!
<pleia2> congrats gQuigs!
<gQuigs> ty all
<Joeb454> congrats gQuigs
<emgent> congrats gQuigs and welcome.
<emmajane> congrats gQuigs
<paultag> gQuigs: congrats!
<Old_Soldier> congrats gQuigs
<emgent> but please fix your nick typo :)
<pedro_> tedg1: you're up
<tedg1> Howdy all.
<tedg1> I'm Ted Gould, and I mostly contribute to Ubuntu by being on the Desktop Team.
<tedg1> I've done most of the packaging and maintenance of the gnome-power-manager and gnome-screensaver packages for Hardy.
<tedg1> And continued on for Intrepid.
<tedg1> I've also done a few presentations promoting Ubuntu, and trying to get more people involved.
<tedg1> Wiki: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TedGould
<tedg1> LP: http://launchpad.net/~ted-gould
<emgent> The best question is: why dont wait and apply directly to ubuntu universe contributors ?
<tedg1> Well, I thought I needed membership first :)
<Hobbsee> u-u-c does membership too.
<Hobbsee> OTOH, you could get membership here, then apply directly for MOTU?
<emgent> nods.
<emgent> uhm.. i dont understand..
<emgent> Email:    ted.gould@ubuntu.com  ?
<pedro_> tedg1: are you a member of a loco team?
<emgent> why you set this mail ?
<tedg1> pedro_: Not really, I have participated in a few California meetings, etc.  But I wouldn't call myself a member.  And I just moved to Texas and haven't had a chance to hook up with those folks.
<tedg1> emgent: Yes, that address was created as a mistake, which I'm trying to fix :)
<emgent> oh ok :)
<emgent> tedg1: anyway Hobbsee suggest is good for me.
<vorian> tedg1: so are you going to apply to the u-u-c?
<tedg1> Yeah, I'm not sure whether uuc or motu makes the most sense next.  I'm not sure if I have enough packages for MOTU yet.
<tedg1> Also, most of my packages have gone into main, not universe.  I'm not sure if that's an issue.
<emgent> ok understand.
<tedg1> I imagine one can't do core-dev before motu though ;)
<emgent> tedg1: anyway i think that its appropriate ask u-u-c or motu :)
<effie_jayx> ok
<vorian> tedg1: might be best to email the motu council to clarify
<effie_jayx> this is great work tedg1
<vorian> i don't think you'll have a problem though
<vorian> :)
<tedg1> Yeah, I was going to ask Daniel and clarify all that, he should know.
<vorian> yep
<effie_jayx> +1 from me
<emgent> nice :)
<pleia2> tedg1: very nice work, some impressive presentations - well done :)
<tedg1> effie_jayx: Thanks.
<emgent> congrats tedg1 and welcome :)
<tedg1> pleia2: Thank you.
<paultag> congrats tedg1
<pleia2> +1 from me
<vorian> +1 from me too
<pedro_> totally +1, nice work indeed ;-)
<emgent> tedg1: are you DD or DM ?
<tedg1> Thank you all!
<vorian> tedg1: good luck with the MC as well
<tedg1> emgent: No, but I was talking about doing the Inkscape packages for Debian with that.
<pleia2> congrats tedg1! good luck on your way to motu :)
<emgent> tedg1: ok nice
<pedro_> he's an Inkscape developer, that's a lot
<vorian> emmajane: you are up!
<pedro_> ;-(
<emmajane> w00t
<pedro_> ;-)
<vorian> :)
<pedro_> grgrg damn keyboard
<emgent> emmajane: heya :)
<dinda> go emmajane!
 * emmajane pastes her intro:
<emmajane> Hello! An intro, eh? Well. I'm EmmaJane Hogbin, a Canadian nerd who earns a living from many things related to FOSS, and I am here today to apply to be an Ubuntu Member. To date my greatest contribution to Ubuntu is advocacy within my physical community and also within the Ubuntu Women project. I've put together my Wiki page to highlight some of my work: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmmaJane
<effie_jayx> emmajane,  I have to say on thing
<effie_jayx> +1 from me
<pedro_> haha
<effie_jayx> straight out... YOU ROCK
<pedro_> how come?
 * emmajane grins. Thank you, effie_jayx.
<emgent> emmajane: launchpad page?
<pleia2> emmajane has done tons of work with ubuntu-women, including writing a whole series of articles this year for full circle magazine for the team, writing our roadmap, and in general working to get the team into Action :)
<effie_jayx> pedro_,  have you seen her presentations of inkscape...
<emgent> ok found.
<pedro_> effie_jayx: oh not yet, where can i find them?
<effie_jayx> pedro_,  wiki page ;)
<emmajane> https://launchpad.net/~emmajane
<pedro_> effie_jayx: great, thanks
<dinda> ditto what pleia2 said plus I've met emmajane and heard her speak at LugRadio US
<effie_jayx> emmajane,  sorry If I cut you off
<emmajane> effie_jayx: no worries. :)
<Hobbsee> yay, emmajane!
<emmajane> thanks, Hobbsee :)
<pleia2> easy +1 from me, fantastic work emmajane!
<vorian> +1 :)
<effie_jayx> vorian,  and pedro_ ?
<vorian> fulfilling a planet request to boot
<vorian> :)
<pedro_> +1 from here too ;-)
<pleia2> woohoo, congrats emmajane!!
<pedro_> emmajane: please add your blog to the planet ;-)
<pleia2> yes, add your blog :)
 * emmajane claps with delight.
<emmajane> Thanks. :)
<vorian> SEJeff: are you back by chance?
<vorian> welcome emmajane :)
<dinda> congrats emmajane!  now you have to buy us all a drink
<nellery> congrats emmajane!!
<pedro_> drinks? where?
 * emmajane grins atta dinda. Virtual drinks on me back in #ubuntu-women ;)
<pleia2> w00t!
<pedro_> yay!
<vorian> congrats to all the new members, and thanks for stopping in tonight!
<paultag> :) ty vorian
<gQuigs> thank you
<vorian> see ya next time!
<emmajane> thanks. :)
<Old_Soldier> :) thanks
<nellery> grats to all new members :)
<pedro_> yes congratulations guys and let's keep Ubuntu rocking the house!
<pleia2> congrats everyone :)
<tedg1> Thank you.
<effie_jayx> thank you all
<effie_jayx> keep up the great work
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 10 Aug 21:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 04:00: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 04:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 04:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu MOTU Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 04:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<persia> Who's here for the MOTU Meeting?
 * ScottK is sort of half here.
<nxvl> o/
<NCommander> I'm here
<NCommander> But I'm sorta braindamaged
<NCommander> I've been debugging dak
 * NCommander hides from dak
<persia> OK.  While we gather, any volunteers to chair the meeting?
 * NCommander raises hand if non-MOTUs can chair
<persia> NCommander: Certainly.  You know how to use MootBot?
<NCommander> Not a clue
<NCommander> and I doubt it has a man page
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
 * NCommander blinks
<NCommander> WOw
<NCommander> Documentation
<NCommander> WTF?
<LaserJock> woah, watch the CoC there ;-)
<NCommander> Worse than failure is a bad word ;-)?
<persia> NCommander: You may also find https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings useful as input to guiding the meeting.
<NCommander> MootBot, #startmeeting
<NCommander> ...
 * Hobbsee is a little bit here
<persia> Don't prefix the command with anything.
<NCommander> #startmeeting?
<Hobbsee> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 23:07. The chair is Hobbsee.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> NCommander, There is already a meeting in progress.
<Hobbsee> drat.
<NCommander> Bah
<NCommander> THe bot is lagging
<persia> Hobbsee is chair!
<Hobbsee> i am!
 * Hobbsee MUHAHAHAHA
<NCommander> I typed it in first >.<;
<NCommander> argh
<NCommander> oh well
<Hobbsee> NCommander: you needed to lose the ?
<persia> NCommander: You added a '?' so it didn't work.
 * NCommander passes the chair, and thus the responsibilities of the meeting to Hobbsee 
<Hobbsee> so...
<NCommander> Hobbsee, no, I typed it again just before Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> #topic MOTU Key Team Selection
<NCommander> but it lagged getting to the IRC server
<Hobbsee> [topic] MOTU Key Team Selection
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Key Team Selection
<Hobbsee> persia: you're up!
<persia> OK.  We've been discussing how to select members for key teams for 6 weeks now.
<Hobbsee> please actually decide.  watching it is painful.
<persia> The ML thread seems to have died, and NCommander, who was appointed shepherd hasn't sent anything.
<NCommander> I was susposed to send something?
<persia> Also, we're running out of members on key teams, and desperately need to have a means to get new ones.
<persia> So, what needs doing to have a policy?
 * ScottK ponders RFC 3933 and gets back to $WORK.
<NCommander> persia, someone probably just needs to write it, and say "We're doing this"
<NCommander> We could draft it now, or two proposals, and put it to a vote tonight
<persia> NCommander: and as shepherd from the last meeting, I'd expect you'd want to do that, no?
<nxvl> persia: but how can we select for candidates? in a time basis?
<persia> The other option is admitting that we can't come to a conclusion, and pushing to MOTU Council, but I don't like doing that.
<NCommander> That was the idea. I wasn't aware that I was susposed to actually start the conversation on the list, I thought I just gathered what was posted to put to a vote for this meeting ...
<nxvl> being it: "it need to be a motu for X time"
<NCommander> so I dropped the ball :-/
<NCommander> I say we do extactly what we do for regular MOTU membership
<NCommander> You put forth a nomination
<persia> nxvl: I don't think that should be a requirement, as long as someone is currently MOTU and has sufficient respect by everyone else.
<NCommander> People can sponsor you for the position
<NCommander> And if there is any objections, have a window where they can publically be posted
<NCommander> ratification needs to be by majority vote
<persia> NCommander: You say, or you believe this to be consensus?
<nxvl> persia: that's where i wanted to come
<NCommander> persia, I was putting it forth as an idea
<ScottK> I didn't say so on the ML, but I liked the proposal.
<nxvl> persia: how can you meassure the "respect" of developers
<ScottK> nxvl: When it's been absent in the past, there hasn't been any confusion about it.
<NCommander> [IDEA] Possible method on choosing people for the conciel/sru positions via ratification and sponsorship
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Possible method on choosing people for the conciel/sru positions via ratification and sponsorship
<persia> nxvl: I tend to think that it is best selected by nobody saying "they don't know what they are talking about", and voting in the rare occasion we have too many people who want to be on the team, but that's my viewpoint.
<Hobbsee> NCommander: i'll make this easy:  the chair of the meeting won't let this meeting finish, until there's a definite policy :P
<NCommander> Hobbsee, that's what I was going to do as chair
<NCommander> [IDEA] Allowing anyone to join teams if there is an opening based for any team
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Allowing anyone to join teams if there is an opening based for any team
<Hobbsee> good idea ;)
<persia> Err, council is appointed by TB, although they tend to take our recommendations.  We can't adjust that.  This is for -sru and -release, and maybe other types of MOTU/Leaders
<ScottK> And it's mid day in .au, so she'll likely be awake for long time
<Hobbsee> ScottK: well, i'll have to go to wokr eventually.  but yeah :D
 * persia cheers the idea of filibusters
<NCommander> well, we have two ideas on the table
<Hobbsee> is this anyone who's a MOTU, or anyone at all?
<LaserJock> can I interject just for a second?
<NCommander> Hobbsee, MOTU is a requirement
<Hobbsee> oh good
<NCommander> I think that's always been clear
<NCommander> LaserJock, shoot
<Hobbsee> just checking
<persia> For some roles, MOTU is optional (e.g. LP Liaison, MOTU School Dean, etc.), for others, I think it's a requirement (e.g. -sru, -release)
<LaserJock> did anybody *not* approve of persia's proposal to ubuntu-motu?
<NCommander> (I should say MOTU or better, but you catch my drift)
<persia> LaserJock: That's a good place to start :)
<NCommander> LaserJock, refresh the proposal for me
<persia> NCommander: There is no *better*
<ScottK> NCommander: core-dev are also MOTU, so there is no better.
 * ScottK high fives persia
 * NCommander inserts foot in mouth
<persia> Well, most core-dev are also MOTU.  The rest don't tend to play in universe
<NCommander> Ok
<LaserJock> MOTU trinity perhaps? ;-)
<NCommander> Let me be more clear
<NCommander> We're all agreed that -sru/-release must be an MOTU
<persia> LaserJock: MOTU trinity appoints everyone
<NCommander> Right?
 * persia thinks none of MOTU trinity has time just now.
<StevenK> ScottK: Only by team membership.
<ScottK> True.
<persia> Anyway, my proposal was https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-motu/2008-July/004275.html
<ScottK> NCommander: Yes.
<NCommander> MOTU trinity?
<StevenK> Some core-dev aren't in the team. Like our esteamed chair.
<StevenK> esteemed? Sigh. Spelling
<persia> NCommander: historical group who led MOTU prior to the foundation of MOTU Council
<ScottK> Not sure you got it wrong.
<NCommander> persia, ah
<nxvl> NCommander: is anyone in doubt that motuship is a requirement?
<NCommander> nxvl, Hobbsee was
<persia> I am, for some roles.
<Hobbsee> which team, sorry?
<LaserJock> I would think UUC for some roles
<NCommander> Hobbsee, -sru/-release
<Hobbsee> oh, right.
<StevenK> -{sru,release} is so MOTU only
<NCommander> LaserJock, UUC is acceptable for all others (essentially anything you need to upload)
<NCommander> er
<LaserJock> ?
<NCommander> ^upload requires MOTU
<NCommander> if the nature of the position requires you to upload to the archive
<persia> Yes.  {-sru,-release} is very MOTU-only
<NCommander> Then you need to be an MOTU
<LaserJock> *anyway*, why don't we quickly have a look at persia's proposal ^^ and see if there are any objections
<NCommander> Ok, so that's clear
<NCommander> I have one problem with persia's proposal
<persia> What's that?
<NCommander> We could get stuck with someone in sru/release for a very long time who is .... shall we say uncooperative at times
<persia> NCommander: Not likely: some MOTU would call for resignation, no?
 * StevenK beats NCommander with a Debian stick
<NCommander> I mean, go back 10 years, and you still had mostly the same ftpmasters on debian, and the release team.
 * NCommander is immune to StevenK's stick due his dak braindamage
<Hobbsee> persia: not if they wanted their stuff approved.
<LaserJock> we have a pretty good history of people stepping down when they don't have time/interest
<NCommander> I'm just saying that power can corrupt
<StevenK> NCommander: You're just bitter. Wait, we're both bitter.
<nxvl> what we did on ubuntu-pe on the council foundation was:
<LaserJock> NCommander: there's not a lot of power here
<persia> Hobbsee: See, that's why we try to have multiple members.
<nxvl> the one interested on the position sends a mail to the list, if he get's 2 ACK's it's an elegible candidate
<StevenK> And usually -{sru,release} is commenting on bugs saying "Oh, fine, upload your damn package"
<persia> Anyway, if a current team is completely broken, we can always look to MC for dispute resolution, or in the worst case, go to TB.
<Hobbsee> i agree with NCommander's thought, though - for whatever reason, the person themselves might want to keep serving, but the general team might not want them to, and a method of asking them to step aside might be a good one.
<NCommander> The problem with asking people for a resignation is it creates a lot of bad tension, and will turn u-motu into u-drama
<Hobbsee> power to the head, and all that.
<StevenK> Actual wording may be different.
<nxvl> so any candidature must need at least 2 people supporting it
<nxvl> before the poll
<persia> NCommander: I'm fine with drama if someone is misbehaving: it's far better than apathy, bitterness, and attrition.
<NCommander> I'd go also as far as every $X months, a vote is required for that person to keep the position, but no overall term limit
<StevenK> Personally, I'd like the team to be able to say +1, and others in the team to say -1. If n >= 2, it's okay. If it's not, fix it.
<NCommander> Well, if its a closed ballot vote, and the person is voted out, no drama
<Hobbsee> StevenK: ++
<persia> StevenK: I'm generally uncomfortable confirming someone when there is any negative vote, but I can see that viewpoint.
<LaserJock> ok, I have to say I find it slightly ironic that we're debating over how to kick people of the teams when we're here because we can't get them filled :-)
<NCommander> rofl
<Hobbsee> haha
<StevenK> persia: Well, we can make a policy. n >= 2 and no negatives
<NCommander> StevenK, that can backfire if someone holds a gruge
<persia> StevenK: That works for me: two in support.
<persia> NCommander: In that case, there is a disagreement, which ought be sorted if we are to work effectively as a team.
<StevenK> NCommander: It's supposed to -{sru,release} not -primary-school
<NCommander> StevenK, obviously I've been tainted by two years on d-devel
<StevenK> NCommander: Unsubscribe, it worked for me.
<persia> d-devel is different, in several ways.
<NCommander> I tried
 * StevenK used to read d-devel
<NCommander> d-devel won't remove me from the list
 * StevenK still has the scars
<NCommander> StevenK, they have abuse groups for that
<StevenK> NCommander: Mail the listmasters
<persia> Umm.  Aren't we drifting?
<StevenK> They have this lovely command vi
<StevenK> persia: Just a little
<Hobbsee> yes, yes, we're drifting.  this is ubuntu here.
<NCommander> Ok, back on topic
 * persia wants more SRU team members
<LaserJock> persia: I have a question about your proposal
<LaserJock> specifically, I don't quite understand the paragraph starting with "If the acceptance of a candidate would push the team oversize"
<StevenK> persia: So, we clone you a few times, and there's our -{sru,release}.
 * persia fails to type !ask, but only barely
<NCommander> Actually, I have one thing I'd like to amend
<persia> StevenK: I'm in neither team, which is probably a good thing :p
<NCommander> And that is to loose the -sru max team size
<NCommander> I can't think of a great reason why it should be there
<persia> LaserJock: Basically, if more people want to join than there are slots, we vote, and someone steps down.
<NCommander> Since there is always a good backup of sru requests, make it so anyone who's qualified could work towards resolving them
<LaserJock> we vote on the whole team?
<persia> If there are a lot of pending applications, the election may be delayed.
<persia> LaserJock: Yes, with e.g. 5 winners out of 7.
<LaserJock> why would the election be delated?
<LaserJock> *delayed
<NCommander> Again, why are we capping the team size?
<StevenK> Because we're apparently Debian and can't agree.
<persia> In the case that say three people applied to fill one position on the team, we'd wait for the one-week discussion period to pass for each of the three before holding the vote.  Saves having three votes in a couple weeks.
<NCommander> StevenK, I suddenly flashed back to when Ian brought up the triggers stink on d-devel
<LaserJock> persia: oh, I see
<persia> NCommander: Because both teams exist from TB requests to get a collection of people with expertise to rule on these matters.
<StevenK> NCommander: That is because most Developers saw the U-word and charged.
<LaserJock> persia: could we instead have a "call for nominations" so that the times aren't staggered?
<persia> IT doesn't make sense to have the collection of expertise be everyone.
<LaserJock> exactly
<NCommander> If the MOTU community feels someone is suited for a job, and they want to do it, why bar them?
<persia> LaserJock: I guess.  I'm only imagining a delay of at most three or four days.  Given how likely it is that I'm supposed to set up the election, and by supply of tuits, I suspect we'd have such a delay anyway.
<persia> s/by/my/
<LaserJock> NCommander: again, the irony
<LaserJock> I think the problem is filling, not limiting
<ScottK> NCommander: What have an SRU team if it can just be everyone (hint: We tried that.  Didn't work so good).
<NCommander> ScottK, and there's a reason why not ;-)
<StevenK> LaserJock: You need to turn off your iron detector
<LaserJock> persia: ok, fine. that paragraph was just a bit confusing to me. I got it know
<NCommander> LaserJock, that thing is licensed under the GPL license, its got no warrenty it works right
 * ScottK declares it bed time.
<persia> ScottK: before you go
<ScottK> Yes?
<NCommander> I'd like to call for a vote, just to see where people are standing: The vote should be "Are we all more or less leaning towards persia's proposal"
<persia> As you've yet to update w.u.c/MOTU/Meetings with instructions for the decision process, what needs doing to confirm this?
<nxvl> also everyone can do the job
<ScottK> Rates.
<nxvl> no one say you can't
<ScottK> Rats
<Hobbsee> [vote] Are we all more or less leaning towards persia's proposal
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Are we all more or less leaning towards persia's proposal.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nxvl> but some people (group of) need to take the lead on the topic
 * persia probably should have put the agenda items in opposite order
<NCommander> +
<ScottK> persia: NCommander makes a summary and asks for comment on the ML.  If he judges that the rough consensus is in favor, it's in.
<persia> +0 because it's my proposal
<MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<NCommander> er +1
<NCommander> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ScottK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ScottK. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Hobbsee> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Hobbsee. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<LaserJock> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from LaserJock. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<StevenK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<LaserJock> \0/
<nxvl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nxvl. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
<persia> ScottK: If I judge?  NCommander was appointed shepherd: is it not if Ncommander judges?
<NCommander> Ok, now we're getting somewhere
<ScottK> Anyone who violently objects to NCommander's consensus call can appeal to MC.
<Hobbsee> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 6
<NCommander> huh, what?
<Hobbsee> right.
<persia> Never mind: I misread that.
<NCommander> Look, we're all leaning towards persia's proposal
<persia> NCommander: It's all up to you.
<ScottK> persia: If NCommander judges.
<ScottK> Right.
<NCommander> Now we just need to refine it, and post it to the list
<Hobbsee> right, so what bits of persia's proposal needs refining.
<ScottK> Good night and good luck.
<Hobbsee> [agreed] We're going with persia's proposal to the list
<MootBot> AGREED received:  We're going with persia's proposal to the list
<NCommander> I'll open the floor for anyone to [IDEA]
<NCommander> ;-)
<persia> There were a few issues mentioned in followup email on the thread: those ought be incorporated.
<LaserJock> well, I for one would like the get the cliff notes/bullet point version :-)
<persia> bullet points:
<NCommander> I've got six hours
<StevenK> Damn university people wanting cliff notes
<NCommander> I can hammer this thing out, and make it done and stick
<persia> * Team sizes are limited
<persia> * Anyone can apply at any time
<persia> * An application needs 2 supporters within a week to be successful, and no (unretracted) criticism
<NCommander> I
<persia> * If an application is successful, but puts the team oversize, we vote on who drops out
<NCommander> That rubs me the wrong way on that last bit
<persia> * Any MOTU can call for resignation of any team member at any time, which generates discussion, and one of retraction of the call for resignation, a resignation, or dispute resolution by MC.
<persia> bullet points done.
<NCommander> The second to last one rubs me the wrong way
<StevenK> NCommander: Only because you want no limit on the team size
<NCommander> I'm willing to conceed on that point
<StevenK> Having fifteen people on the team and only needing +2 is ... pointless
<persia> TB has specifically asked that we provide a small team to do these things.  As ScottK noted, we used to have an open team, and that annoyed the archive-admins
<LaserJock> well, the only thing I'd say would be that we should vote on who *stays* not who goes, but that's sort of semantics
<NCommander> But the problem is if you have five people doing it who are doing it without issue, I'm not going to be the one who votes who leaves the island
<NCommander> What is this, MOTU survivor?
<LaserJock> yes
 * StevenK votes off NCommander 
 * NCommander declares StevenK the weakest link
<StevenK> Ha!
<NCommander> StevenK, beside, you can't vote me off, I'm not an MOTU ;-)
<persia> NCommander: If we have five people doing the job well, it's unlikely someone else will want to join the team.
<LaserJock> and if it really comes to it, we can bump the max size
<persia> RIght, although we'd want to confirm that with TB
<LaserJock> but just because people are good at what they do doesn't mean they necessarily should be doing it
<nxvl> i don't really think we will get to the point where we have a overlanded team
<nxvl> i find it to difficult
<LaserJock> I think rotations are nice, giving people a break
 * persia notes that policy isn't etched in stone or anything: having no policy is bad: having a policy that needs fixing is a soluable issue
<NCommander> nxvl, well, the churn rate is kinda high
<NCommander> ;-)
<LaserJock> it also sort of solves the "what if there's a crusty old bugger that nobody likes" issue ;-)
<NCommander> I agree with LaserJock
<NCommander> Maybe we could have a reserve that anyone with two sponsors can join, and the actual team
<persia> Right.  One can call for resignation, or one can apply as a replacement.
<NCommander> And every release, people get shuffled in and out
<nxvl> since everyone knows he can do the job without having the diploma saying he's able to do it
<LaserJock> gosh, we don't want *that* much churn
<persia> I don't like shuffling people every release.  We tried that, and the learning curve bit us.
<NCommander> I still think rotations are a good thing personally
 * ajmitch has already shuffled off long ago
<LaserJock> rotation is good
<NCommander> Lets put it to a vote
<LaserJock> rotating constantly is not
<NCommander> SHould the sru/release team have rotations?
<LaserJock> -1, it should be as needed
<StevenK> Not every release
<NCommander> Once a year ;-)
<NCommander> Once ever LTS?
<StevenK> If someone wants to keep doing it, let them
<persia> We already killed that a long time ago.
<nxvl> we can suggest people to go trought a selection process again every 6 months on a volunteer basis
<NCommander> so no rotations?
<nxvl> but we can't do more
 * NCommander pokes Hobbsee 
<ajmitch> NCommander: careful
 * Hobbsee pokes back
<NCommander> Oh good, she's alive
<Hobbsee> sorry, are we voting again, or?
<NCommander> LaserJock, well, how would you handle rotations
<StevenK> Non-automatically
<LaserJock> people come and go as time and interest permits
<NCommander> Hobbsee, I'm not sure anymore, I wanted to see where people sat on having rotations (of a term length to be decided)
<persia> NCommander: Generally people stop after a year or so: that provides openings for new people.
<persia> As long as not everyone stops at once, the team can maintain culture and shared expertise.
<Hobbsee> NCommander: oh.  rotations can be good
<NCommander> I'm just worried we get stuck in the Debian solution
<NCommander> er, problem
<LaserJock> NCommander: we are *not* Debian
<ajmitch> NCommander: bitterness & disillusionment?
<persia> We won't.  Ubuntu is culturally far too distinct from Debian
<NCommander> Yeah
<NCommander> I'm learning that
<NCommander> Ok
<ajmitch> excellent
<ajmitch> you're well on your way
<NCommander> DO we need rotations actually written in the policy
<StevenK> No
<NCommander> Or can it be sorta an ad-hoc thing
<LaserJock> as long as there are people who come forward to replace it really won't be a problem
<nxvl> yeah
<NCommander> OK
<nxvl> ubuntu is really different
<NCommander> I assume the five team limit is something thats already in place
<NCommander> or does that require discussion
<nxvl> people (like we have seen some days ago) step down for responsabilities when they can't handle it
<NCommander> (I'm going to say it doesn't, but I just want to make sure we can kill this off the meeting list for good)
<persia> We had an exception once and went to six, but one of the members was on vacation, and we were back to five before he returned.
<LaserJock> I tend to think it may need to be a per-team thing
<NCommander> So the leader of the team chooses, or?
<LaserJock> some teams just don't need to be that big
<persia> Let's go with "five" for now, and allow exceptions if we want.
<LaserJock> k, sounds good
<NCommander> Ok
<NCommander> Works for me
<persia> (the facility for exceptions doesn't need to be in policy: it's implied by the way we do things)
 * NCommander perfers to cover his bases
<NCommander> Is there any outstanding issues with persia's that haven't been covered
<NCommander> Going once
<nxvl> persia: would you present the New Decision Process now or will wait a bit more
<nxvl> ?
<NCommander> nxvl, we need to run it through a final vote just to make it offical ;-)
<NCommander> To recap
<persia> nxvl: When the chair asks, once this topic is complete.
<st33med> night
<NCommander> * -sru/-release are five man teams who are all MOTUs. More people can be added if needed
<NCommander> * - Anyone can leave the teams at any time by posting to u-motu with their resignation
<LaserJock> *cough* women are allowed *cough*
<Hobbsee> [vote] Agree with NCommander's summary above?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Agree with NCommander's summary above?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<NCommander> Hobbsee, I'm not done typing it!
<StevenK> Hah
<StevenK> LaserJock: Dear me
<Hobbsee> NCommander: sorry, i wasn't sure if you were
 * persia stuffs LaserJock for irrelevancy and redundant restatement of base assumptions
<StevenK> LaserJock: That's a little unecessary
<NCommander> * - To join the team, you nomination yourself, and need two sponsorship requests. the floor is opened to -motu for anyone to post criticisms. Any valid criticisms that are not retracted or resolved invalidates that member from joining the team
<NCommander> * - Any MOTU can request the resignination of someone on -sru/-release, which is handled via a vote at the next meeting
<persia> Note that non-motu may comment, but their complaints may not be honoured.
<NCommander> persia, That's why its "Any valid criticism"
<NCommander> ;-)
<LaserJock> StevenK: sorry, been living in a PC world too long I guess :-)
<persia> What?  Why vote on calls for resignation?
<nxvl> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nxvl. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<NCommander> If the member chooses not to step down
<NCommander> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from NCommander. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<NCommander> actually
<persia> If there is a call, and it is not withdrawn I'd rather push to MC for dispute resolution than have a vote.
<Hobbsee> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Hobbsee. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
 * persia is not a fan of democracy
<NCommander> +0
<LaserJock> woah, woah
<ajmitch> LaserJock: what a shocking thought :)
<LaserJock> let's figure out this last issue before we go voting
<nxvl> persia: me neither, but if don't you have anarchy
<NCommander> Hobbsee, cancel the vote
<nxvl> persia: so it's a needed virus
<NCommander> Ok
<LaserJock> nxvl: no, we have mechanisms in place
<Hobbsee> how?
<persia> nxvl: There are other functional governance structures: it's all about balancing entitlement and corruption.
<NCommander> Hobbsee, file a feature request against MootBoo, and wait on the developers ;-)
<persia> You can't cancel a vote, but you can end a vote.
<persia> Alternately, we can discuss, and those that wish may change their votes.
<NCommander> Ok, lets discuss
<Hobbsee> persia: +1 for the second option
<NCommander> What's the current method of bringing up a problem MOTU/core-dev
<persia> So, my feeling is that if any MOTU is unhappy with a member of a key team, we have a problem.
<NCommander> (lets just get it out in the open and on e-paper)
<LaserJock> because we have a MOTU Council who's specifically designed for dispute resolution I don't think voting on resignations needs to be addressed here
<persia> The first way to solve that is for the complainant (or a proxy) to send an email noting the reasons why that key team member may not be suitable.
<NCommander> Ok
<persia> As a result, the team member may resign, or there may be discussion, and the call for resignation may be wihdrawn.
<persia> If we can't reach a decision, we tell MC they need to resolve the dispute.
<NCommander> Lets simply note that if a team member chooses not to resign, and the resignation is not recalled, MC has to handle it
<nxvl> need to go
<nxvl> read you later
<persia> That way nobody can complain that they didn't win a vote, or something was a popularity contest.
<NCommander> Simple, and clean,
<persia> We resolve the root issues, and move on.
<persia> NCommander: Right, which is what was in my proposal.
<NCommander> With that as our resignation policy, are there any objections
<NCommander> If there are none, please vote now
<LaserJock> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from LaserJock. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
 * NCommander plays the jeopardy music
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<NCommander> I think everyone who's going to vote has voted, Hobbsee care to close the vote?
<StevenK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from StevenK. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<StevenK> So nyah
<NCommander> bah, StevenK messing up my plans for vote domination
<Hobbsee> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<Hobbsee> sorry
<LaserJock> \o/
<NCommander> W00
<NCommander> It's resolved
<LaserJock> we made a real decision!
<Hobbsee> yay!
<NCommander> Thanks to persia (and no thanks to me)
<Hobbsee> okay, so...
<persia> NCommander: Just for reference, voting doesn't matter much: it's up to you to post an accurate summary of input to the list, call for discussion, and indicate when consensus is reached.
<LaserJock> ... or did we?
 * ajmitch curses dsl & ssh a few more times 
<persia> We didn't. which brings me to the next agenda item :)
<NCommander> persia, bah, you just undermined the happy thoughts
<Hobbsee> drat.  i closed teh agenda tab.
<ajmitch> unclose it
<Hobbsee> [topic] [14:43] <emma> Having done that, then does that qualify as having 'triaged' this bug?
<MootBot> New Topic:  [14:43] <emma> Having done that, then does that qualify as having 'triaged' this bug?
<NCommander> Review of the "New Decision Process"
<Hobbsee> oops
 * persia enrolls Hobbsee in the chairing meetings for geeks course
<NCommander> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<Hobbsee> [topic Review of the "New Decision Process" ]
<StevenK> Haha
<Hobbsee> [topic] Review of the "New Decision Process"
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of the "New Decision Process"
<Hobbsee> FAIL!
<Hobbsee> bad copy key!
<NCommander> Anyone got the bullet points version, I have no idea what this is about from the summary
<persia> There's nothing out there.
<ajmitch> persia does, I hope
<LaserJock> hmm
<persia> About a month ago, or maybe six weeks, we agreed to trial the new decision process, and review it later.
<NCommander> Then uh ... what are we discussing?
<NCommander> Oh
<NCommander> What was the old one?
<persia> So, who likes/dislikes the new process vs. the old one, and why?
<StevenK> Using Launchpad?
<LaserJock> I don't much care for any of them
<ajmitch> persia: the fact that noone can remember what it is says a lot
<persia> The old one was that we made decisions in the MOTU Meetings, and where we weren't certain about consensus, we sent mail to the ML and revisited in the next MOTU Meeting.
<NCommander> What was the new one?
<LaserJock> either they take too long, or the don't include enough people
<NCommander> (that sounds like the current one)
<persia> The new one says we send mail to the ML, discuss it, discuss it in a MOTU Meeting, appoint a shepherd, and discuss more on the ML.
<StevenK> I don't want to use Condorect. We aren't Debian, and devotee makes me cry.
<NCommander> I hate to say this, but since I failed as the shepard the last time around, maybe we should table this, and bring it up in a month?
<LaserJock> what if we did similar to the leadership process
<persia> Erm. NO.
<StevenK> Mainly because Manoj writes software like it's going to be installed on the space shuttle
<NCommander> THere's only been one meeting since the new process went in, isn't it?
<NCommander> StevenK, I packaged devotee
<NCommander> StevenK, that was *fun*
<LaserJock> i.e. somebody proposes something, wait a week, if 2 supports and no objections it stands
<StevenK> NCommander: You poor guy
<slangasek> StevenK: Bruce set a bad example, obviously ;P
<NCommander> The hardest part was using baz
<persia> This is a discussion item only: no decision need be made.  If there is strong enough support for reverting, someone can propose a reversion item (using the new process) to return to the old process.
<StevenK> slangasek: Haha
<slangasek> StevenK: there are other condorcet implementations besides devotee, though
<slangasek> (hi, folks)
<persia> LaserJock: I like MOTU Meetings, rather than the ML.  I have time to prepare for the discussion, and I focus my attention.
<NCommander> hello Mr. Langasek
<persia> ML threads seem a poor way to resolve disputes.
 * NCommander agrees with persia
<LaserJock> persia: well, that could be used
 * persia fails to specifically point out any other distributions for comparison
<LaserJock> i.e. if there are objections after a week it goes to a MOTU Meeting where a vote resolves the dispute
<persia> I'd rather just discuss in a MOTU Meeting.
 * NCommander again agrees with persia 
<persia> For the vast majority of items, there is consensus in the Meeting, and no need for a vote.
<LaserJock> I don't like that though
<persia> That said, my personal opinon isn't sufficient to change, and if others like the new process better, I'm not going to propose we revert
<LaserJock> because you can get vastly different input depending on which meeting you propose at
<NCommander> Well, there is one thing, is it seems the old method failed on the teams issue, and the new one worked
<LaserJock> seems apt to gaming and doesn't give a chance for everybody to participate
<NCommander> That probably says a lot right there
<persia> NCommander: We didn't try the old one on the teams, and the new one also hasn't rendered a decision.  I'm not sure that's a fair comparison.
<NCommander> oh
<NCommander> *ahem*
 * NCommander shuts up
<LaserJock> IRC meetings would be great if it wasn't just 3-5 deciding for 80+
<persia> LaserJock: We only had a few cases where a decision in a MOTU Meeting was overruled in later discussion.  That's part of why minutes go to the ML.
<NCommander> Maybe make X amount of meetings mandatory for MOTUs :-P
<NCommander> That would solve that issue
<LaserJock> persia: true
<persia> The thing is, even on the ML, it's the same people who attend the meetings who comment on policy stuff.
<NCommander> Well, looking around
<LaserJock> persia: but I still feel like it's more of a "take ownership of your team thing" than a "we don't trust people" thing
<persia> I'm all for transparency, but I'm not happy about delays, nor using a process which remains undocumented after six weeks of use.
<NCommander> We have four motus, Hobbsee who is kinda here, and myself as the only non-motu
<slangasek> NCommander: I'm pretty sure that "we have too many MOTU and want a reason to expel some" is not the problem
<NCommander> slangasek, it was more motivation to get them in teams ;-)
 * NCommander wasn't serious
<LaserJock> I'm not happy with the delays either
<NCommander> OTOH, that was the only way we got people to show up at company meetings at my fire company
<LaserJock> which make mailing lists difficult
<persia> Many MOTU are doing things other than coordinating policy or participating in governance teams.  That is a good thing, as otherwise we wouldn't be getting work done.
<ajmitch> I suspect that many MOTUs just don't care about such things
<NCommander> Most probably want to package/patch/do MOTU things then deal with the ugly necessity of politics
<persia> Right, which is understandable, fair, and probably a good thing.
 * LaserJock is stabbed in the heart by ajmitch ;-)
<LaserJock> so we're down to a "rule by the interested"? :-)
<NCommander> Well, meetings are always open to all, and the list can always be used to respond, so it may not be the biggest issue that only a handful of people attend the meetings
<ajmitch> LaserJock: isn't that usually the way?
<persia> The worry is about a tyranny of the minority, which strikes me as less bad than a tyranny of the majority, as long as the minority is both interested and there is sufficient transparency that anyone who is affected by a given issue can address it.
<NCommander> THat being said, I wouldn't have been aware of a meeting tonight if persia didn't say anything
<ajmitch> people don't care until the rules get in the way
<persia> ajmitch: Which is part of why we don't have that many rules
<persia> NCommander: Which is why I send announcements and poke people about meetings
<LaserJock> persia: if we had a culture where it was an OK thing to question the voting results and possibly escalate to the MC then I'm pretty happy with MOTU Meetings
<NCommander> persia, you sent an annoucement to the list?
 * ajmitch couldn't bring himself to read through those long posts on the list about voting systems
<persia> LaserJock: I'd be happy to see such a culture.
<StevenK> ajmitch: Smack a little of -project
<persia> Mind you, I think most things don't require escalation to MC, but just review by MOTU generally.
<LaserJock> persia: granted
<NCommander> It would be easy to just attach a stinky signature at the end of each minutes that ("If you have issues or concerns about this, please feel free to post, we're not set in stone, etc.)
 * persia has an agenda to reduce the MC role in MOTU affairs, just for disclosure
<NCommander> By explicately opening the floor to comments, and critisms, it does wonders for moral
<persia> NCommander: perhaps, but that ought be implied, no?
 * persia wants to avoid disclaimers, weaseling, etc.
<NCommander> persia, I would have never questioned the minutes as posted
<NCommander> It goes against everything else I've done, both in real life, and in Debian
<LaserJock> NCommander: that's ok, you come from Debian ;-)
<NCommander> By having a reminder, it lowers the bar significantly
<NCommander> But its the same way for me in the fire service
<NCommander> I personally don't see the harm in having something like "As always, comments, or concerns can be freely discussed on the list"
<persia> I guess, I just think that any responsible party with interest ought state their views.
<NCommander> I'm no MOTU, and I don't always feel right posting on the list despite being experienced (IMHO), in working on these things
<persia> I'd rather that everyone always felt free to question things, rather than needing to have any disclaimers on *every* email to ubuntu-motu@
<LaserJock> NCommander: we'll tell you when to shut up ;-)
<persia> (or likely won't)
<NCommander> persia, a lot of people will allow minor things to slide, so when a major issue that finally causes a stink, you also have any lingering resentment from previous issues that weren't brought up
 * NCommander again points to dpkg on d-devel
<StevenK> ubuntu-motu is NOT debian-devel
<NCommander> I'm aware of that
<persia> NCommander: Indeed, but that's part of why we don't have that many rules, and it's also one of the ways in which we're different than Debian: most of the minor things are discussed on IRC and resolved.
<StevenK> Please stop comparing the two :-)
<NCommander> diff doesn't work on mailing lists :-/
<StevenK> If Mark Ray subscribes to -motu, I'm unsubscribing
 * NCommander runs
<StevenK> Hopefully, NCommander gets the joke.
<slangasek> ..twitch
 * NCommander watches it fly over his head, and land in LaserJock's eye]
<StevenK> Bwahaha
<persia> Anyway, back on topic.
<ajmitch> StevenK: Debian builds character :)
<persia> So, Do people like the new process?  Did they prefer the old process?
<StevenK> Or leads to insanity
<NCommander> ajmitch, they used to say that about child beatings too
<LaserJock> persia: old process is MOTU Meetings?
<persia> LaserJock: Yes, what we did before the shepherding guidelines.
<slangasek> StevenK: you're not fooling us, we know you were like that before you were a DD
<StevenK> persia: We got sidetracked, put sticky on old and new?
<StevenK> slangasek: Uh huh :-P
<StevenK> Then I blame #linux/IRCNet
<persia> Bah.
<NCommander> I personally think the new process needs documentation
<persia> OK.  Old process was to make decisions in MOTU Meetings.
<LaserJock> well, I like the old process better, but wasn't there a reason to to try the new one first?
<NCommander> LaserJock, I think it was the low turnout for meetings
<persia> New process is undocumented, but involves sending mail to the ML, discussing in a MOTU Meeting and appointing a shepherd, and discussing in the ML again until the shepherd believes there is consensus.
<LaserJock> as I recall the new process came out of concerns about the legitimacy of the the results of the old process
<NCommander> Well
<persia> The reason to try the new process was that it was presented, and nobody disagreed with trying it.
<LaserJock> i.e. 3 people deciding for the whole team
<NCommander> Why don't we simply change it that issues was coming in the meeting are put to a vote
<NCommander> It goes to the list
<NCommander> If there are no objections, when the next meeting comes around, its made offical
<persia> NCommander: Because voting is bad.
<NCommander> persia, normally I'd agree
 * persia much prefers compromise and consensus to voting on which is the least worst of two proposals
 * NCommander would point out the best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter
<NCommander> That arguement falls apart on MOTU :-)
<LaserJock> persia: true
<persia> That said, I'm not sure we need such a complex method to establish consensus, but I'm not hearing that others share my view.
<NCommander> What happens if something gets deadlocked
<NCommander> As a programmer, I want to avoid race conditions at all cost ;-)
<LaserJock> in almost all cases where I've disputed a proposal with somebody the end result of consensus and compromise was better
<persia> NCommander: If it's truly deadlocked, it gets escalated to MC.
<persia> (with either the NEW or the OLD process)
<NCommander> THe shepard I assume can call the issue deadlocked
<LaserJock> i.e. 2 heads are better than picking 1 ;-)
<persia> Maybe: there isn't any documentation of the new process beyond the initial proposal.
<NCommander> I personally like the new purposal
<NCommander> I say stay with it for now, properly document
<NCommander> And bring it up in a month for another review
<persia> So, who is going to document it?  The last assigned party (ScottK) didn't.
<LaserJock> has the new process given us a single result so far?
<persia> LaserJock: No.
<NCommander> I have an allergic reaction to wikis (I was scared by wikipedia)
<NCommander> LaserJock, I'm not saying we stay with it, but lets document it, and try it at least until the resolution of the MOTU team issue
<persia> NCommander: That will be resolved before the next meeting anyway, right?
<LaserJock> NCommander: and I say ditch as soon as we can ;-)
<StevenK> NCommander: You sound like my manager.
<NCommander> I'm waiting for the end of the meeting to fire off the u-motu email
<ajmitch> aha, dholbach arrives
<NCommander> StevenK, is that a good or bad thing
<LaserJock> everybody run!
<NCommander> I'm a firefighter, I'm used to taking charge, and working under pressure
 * ajmitch hides behind Hobbsee 
<dholbach> hi ajmitch :)
<ScottK> I'll document it.
 * ScottK couldn't sleep.
<StevenK> NCommander: Neither, I'm just commenting "I have an allergic reaction to wikis" sounds like him
<LaserJock> I just think we're way over engineering this thing
<StevenK> ScottK: You were so worried we were going to approve something you didn't like, weren't you?
<NCommander> StevenK, well, the one that powers wiki.ubuntu|debain.org
<NCommander> I love mediawiki
<LaserJock> the vast majority of "decisions" are non-controversial and easy to do
<ScottK> StevenK: No.  I'll just ignore it if I dno't like it.
<StevenK> NCommander: That's MoinMoin
<NCommander> StevenK, I loath it, its slow and bloated
<NCommander> mediawiki FTW
<StevenK> NCommander: Why, because it has more security issues than sendmail and firefox combined?
<LaserJock> ....wandering
<StevenK> And isn't it *choke* PHP?
<ScottK> I was gonna say ...
<ScottK> Even less secure than the PHP it's built on and that's an achievement.
<StevenK> Sorry, NCommander made me charge
<LaserJock> well, I'm going to bed
<ScottK> Good night.
<ScottK> Fundamentally we had the problem of time zone spread.
<ScottK> It isn't feasible to get everyone at every meeting.
<NCommander> I dunno, it always seems to be the same set of faces
<ScottK> So you either have to do two meetings, exclude people, or take it to the ML.
<LaserJock> my summary: voting stinks, be collaborative, be respectful, work out a rough consensus and go for it
<NCommander> And isn't being an insommic or having a sleep disorder a requirement to being an MOTU? ;-)
<NCommander> ...
<LaserJock> gnight
 * NCommander breaks free of his Debian programming and agrees with LaserJock 
<ScottK> I don't normally make this one but due to me not being able to sleep ...
<LaserJock> NCommander: we're called MOTUHolics
<persia> Right.  So, getting back to the topic.
 * ScottK smacks NCommander in the head so he feels at home.
<persia> What I see is 1) ScottK will document the new process
<persia> 2) We'll review again in a month
<NCommander> ScottK, that's nothing. I'm used to being **** raped by people on Debian
<persia> Has anyone said anything else of interst?
<persia> Hobbsee: Can you [ACTION] ScottK on that?
<ScottK> persia: Where am I supposed to document this?
 * NCommander resists the urge to make a joke at persia's expense
<StevenK> NCommander: Geez
<Hobbsee> [action] ScottK will document the new process
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK will document the new process
<persia> ScottK: MOTU/Meetings would be a good place: as part of the instructions on adding something to the agenda.
<Hobbsee> [action] We'll review again in a month
<MootBot> ACTION received:  We'll review again in a month
<ScottK> Hobbsee: And action persia to remind me again on Wednesday next week when I've forgotten again.
<NCommander> StevenK, what? I run dak, I like pain. Normal abuse doesn't work on me
<persia> Maybe have the full process on the wiki somewhere, and a link.;
<NCommander> My first real programming language was COBOL
<NCommander> And not just cobol, but Cobol on win32 ;-)
<ScottK> Bah.  Win32 didn't exist when I was doing COBOL.
<persia> So, unless there's something else relevant, I'm done with my topic, and hand control back to the chair.
<StevenK> ScottK: Neither did LCDs
<NCommander> I'd like to bring up something
<StevenK> Or the bible
<ScottK> StevenK: Not even CDs.
<Hobbsee> [action] persia to remind ScottK  again on Wednesday next week when I've forgotten again.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to remind ScottK  again on Wednesday next week when I've forgotten again.
<NCommander> The wiki says I should bring up any nominations for UUC here
<persia> Erm, where?
<ScottK> NCommander: That's MOTU Council, not here.
<NCommander> oh
<persia> Wait, where on the wiki does it say this?
<StevenK> MOTU Meeting != MOTU Council
<NCommander> SO no [vote] NCommander for UUC? ;-)
<NCommander> persia, I misread
<persia> No, no such vote.
<StevenK> -1
<StevenK> Aww
<NCommander> ack
 * StevenK hides
<NCommander> .... COBOL for .Net
 * NCommander stabs StevenK 
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Aug 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Release | 11 Aug 04:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 21 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team
 * StevenK resists
<NCommander> THE POWER OF COBOL COMPELS YOU
<persia> Erm, this is the official meeting log, and will be reviewed by many...
<Hobbsee> [topic] next meeting time
<MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting time
<NCommander> ahem
 * NCommander hides
<ajmitch> persia: best that they see the true side of the UUC candidate
<StevenK> Haha
<NCommander> I'm screwed
<ScottK> NCommander: No.  That's Debian.  You already explained that to us.
<persia> Next meeting time is 22nd, 12:00 UTC right?
<ScottK> Sounds right.
<NCommander> ScottK, well, my NM application moved again, so I dunno
<Hobbsee> [agreed] Next meeting time is 22nd, 12:00 UTC
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Next meeting time is 22nd, 12:00 UTC
 * ajmitch should prepare himself mentally for RMS' visit in a week or so
<Hobbsee> [topic] any other business
<persia> NCommander: Please take to #ubuntu-motu or elsewhere
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other business
<NCommander> Next REVU day?
<NCommander> THere hasn't been one in awhile
<persia> That's up to nixternal
 * ajmitch must leave now, farewell all
<NCommander> Ok
<persia> Mind you, someone else could volunteer to be REVU Coordinator: as nixternal did call for help.
 * NCommander would voluteer
<ScottK> NCommander: Go see nixternal.
<NCommander> nixternal, ping
<persia> NCommander: Try #ubuntu-MOTU at UTC-6 friendly times
<NCommander> Yeah
<NCommander> Ok, I've got nothing I can think of offhand
 * NCommander flips through the list to see if there was anything recently
<nxvl> i'm also interested on revu coordination
<nxvl> :D
<persia> Right, people should go poke nixternal.
<persia> Is there anything else?  We're already well overtime.
<dholbach> more REVU Coordinators! :)
<StevenK> So an [action] people poke nixternal  ?
<nxvl> StevenK: nah
<NCommander> Yeah, sounds right
<Hobbsee> [action] people poke nixternal
<MootBot> ACTION received:  people poke nixternal
<NCommander> Actually
<nxvl> dholbach: hi!
<StevenK> Haha
<persia> Well, there's only one REVU Coordinator, but no reason not to have a REVU team.
<Hobbsee> [action] make nixternal stop using vista in the process
<MootBot> ACTION received:  make nixternal stop using vista in the process
<NCommander> ds
<NCommander> *ew
<NCommander> Coding on REVU from Vista should be against ubuntuwire TOS
<NCommander> But for another time
<NCommander> But I'd like the notion of a REVU team
<NCommander> Or more like absorbing revu-admins as an offical ubuntu-revu-team
<StevenK> Maybe that can be expressed as something else
<StevenK> Like admins of the UUC team
<StevenK> (Just an idea)
<persia> REVU hacking and REVU Coordination are very distinct, and for a reason.
<NCommander> Well, define REVU coordination
<persia> It's usually not the same people who want to make REVU better as push more applications through REVU (although there is overlap)
<persia> NCommander: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Leaders
 * NCommander snaps fingers
<NCommander> There is something I'd like to bring up for discussion, which is something ScottK's talked about for awhile, and that is packages are not getting back to Debian, and the MOTU's load on supporting keeps going up constantly
<NCommander> If packages go upstream to debian, we can at least get some help from debian-qa, as well as their porting teams
<ScottK> Personally I think we ought to be more aggressive about pitching out unmaintained cruft.
<NCommander> Very few people run ubuntu popcon (I didn't even know it existed), so we don't have a great measure on package usage unless I'm mistaken
<StevenK> ScottK: ++
<NCommander> And there are packages, like my nrss one which hasn't any upstream releses because the author considers it feature complete, and there are no (known) lingering bugs
<ScottK> If it's not broken, I don't care if it's old.
<NCommander> define broken
<persia> NCommander: If you'd like to revive DCT, it would be greatly appreciated.
<NCommander> DCT?
<slangasek> NCommander: er, we have half a million hits
<NCommander> (or utubtu)
<persia> ScottK: Mostly that needs some way of identifying which packages meet those criteria: if a list could be made public, we'd be in a much better position to chase them.
<ScottK> I think Utunbu largely achieved it's goals.
 * Hobbsee goes afk for a while
<NCommander> Why was it disbanded, if Utunbu was still around, I'd had someone in that group assist me getting my packages into the debian archives
<ScottK> persia: One think I think we need to do is look at Main --> Universe transitions and work on finishing the job in the next release.
<persia> NCommander: DCT is the companion group within Ubuntu that matches Utnubu within Debian.  Utnubu has done most of it's work, but DCT still needs to work on pushing stuff back cleanly.
<persia> ScottK: Makes sense.
<ScottK> NCommander: IIRC it was more about tool integration than moving packages.
 * ScottK notes, for example, that we still have slpheed-gtk1 and sylpheed packages.
<NCommander> Well, I think talking about the increasing number of ubuntu packages warrents a chat
<NCommander> Maybe during archive freezes is a good time to nominate packages for removal; and if no one steps up to update them, they go at the next release
<NCommander> AFAIK, there is no policy like that in place
<ScottK> I also think we ought to be able to come up with a metric for one time only upload, buggy and so we get rid of it.
<ScottK> NCommander: The policy now is more like if you're motivated you file a bug and convince an archive admin.
<NCommander> SOme packages maybe one time only, nrss over three years has gotten two releases
<ScottK> Right, but not buggy.
<persia> OK.  We're now 45 minutes over.  Does this need to be discussed as MOTU Meeting, or can it be addressed in #ubuntu-motu later?
<NCommander> ScottK, that's rather ad-hoc, but if was a goal for things to be done during a freeze, (like form a team of people who review a block of universe), and nominate for removes
<ScottK> Actually, as a matter of policy I'd prefer that individual maintainers be required for packages not in Debian.
<NCommander> persia, its called progress, is there really much reason to stop chatting if things are getting done
<ScottK> Chair could endmeeting.
<persia> Except that others may want to have a meeting, and we shouldn't do it here.
<NCommander> And Hobbsee's is AFK, we can't end the meeting :-)
<NCommander> The point is mute until Hobbsee comes back
<ScottK> persia: What do you think about individual maintainers for packages not in Debian.
<persia> ScottK: I'm very strongly against the idea.
<ScottK> Why?
<persia> But I think we should have this discussion in #ubuntu-motu
<ScottK> OK.
<persia> Ask me there, and I'll explain.
<NCommander> Hobbsee, when you get this, please closemeeting
<Hobbsee> [closemeeting]
<Hobbsee> [close meeting]
<Hobbsee> [endmeeting]
<persia> #ndmeeting
<Hobbsee> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 00:53.
<Hobbsee> there we are!
<StevenK> Heh
<steve555> Hi everyone.
<nizarus> boredandblogging: here ?
<boredandblogging> nizarus: hi
<nizarus> hi boredandblogging
<nizarus> i need an advice if you a are free
<boredandblogging> nizarus: lets do it in #ubuntu-tn
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Release Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Aug 04:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 21 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team
<pitti> hi
 * slangasek waves
<cjwatson> good afternoon
<cjwatson> slangasek: I'm fighting (non-intrepid-relevant) fires at the moment, will mostly be lurking
<slangasek> understood
<dendrobates> o/
<slangasek> 'morning :)
<pgraner> slangasek: morning
<slangasek> ok, doesn't appear that davidm is around; let's go ahead and get started without him then
<slangasek> lool: (are you here, by chance?)
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:08. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * ScottK is here for motu-release (if needed).
<slangasek> [TOPIC] outstanding items from last week
<MootBot> New Topic:  outstanding items from last week
<cjwatson> davidm sent me mail not that long ago
<slangasek> I know the status of most of what was on that list, because they were assigned to me ;)
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2008-07-31
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2008-07-31
<slangasek> there's the list of action items from last week
<slangasek> dendrobates: do you know the status of openldap 2.4.11?
<slangasek> I had spoken with mathiaz about it and encouraged him to go ahead, but I don't know where he is with that
<dendrobates> slangasek: mathiaz is working on it, I am not sure if it will make it though.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> I've spoken with pgraner about the kernel package split; cjwatson, I can brain dump to you later, see if there are any outstanding concerns, but the archive uninstallability list is certainly a lot cleaner now
<cjwatson> it is indeed, thanks
<slangasek> and I talked to Riddell about Kubuntu bugs - we still have one outstanding for alpha-4 which he's working on
<pitti> I worked hard on archive maintenance today, I think I'll get the list close to 0 for a4
<pitti> at least the bits which affect the CDs
<cjwatson> how is component-mismatches doing? (maybe later)
<pitti> in fact, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/intrepid_probs.html already looks good enough for a4
<slangasek> pgraner sent me some kernel blurbs for the technical overview, which I haven't committed yet - I have several technical overview items that I still need to follow through on, but overall we seem to be making progress there compared with previous milestones
<pitti> cjwatson: I sorted out binary de/promotions and source/binary demotions, and some 10 source promotions, but it's a loooong list
<slangasek> dendrobates: mathiaz hasn't given me anything to use as a blurb for samba 3.2; can you follow up with him?
<dendrobates> yes, he is on holiday, but I will ask him asap.
<slangasek> "before Wednesday" is probably sufficient :)
<slangasek> [ACTION] dendrobates to follow up with mathiaz about a samba 3.2 blurb for the Technical Overview
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dendrobates to follow up with mathiaz about a samba 3.2 blurb for the Technical Overview
<slangasek> we've made some progress on CD sizing, although entirely not in the area we were originally expecting to
 * bryce waves
<slangasek> my thanks to seb128, for uploading a new libgweather upstream that stuck out like a sore thumb :-)
<cjwatson> the uncompressed Packages file bit got blocked by bug 255545
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255545 in apt "requires uncompressed Packages files on CDs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255545
<pitti> the recent seed cleanup was apparently completely eaten up by other noise :(
<mvo> I can have a look at this bug today
<mvo> (not promising to fix it today ;)
<cjwatson> mvo: yeah, it didn't look trivial
<cjwatson> or I might have just fixed it myself ...
 * mvo nods
<cjwatson> I think Luke looked into sound downsizing for himself, from what I saw in scrollback
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> that would still be a nice-to-have for alpha-4, but not critical
<seb128> slangasek: thanks for doing the change to use gettext ;-)
<slangasek> we definitely don't want to get too close to the crunch time before landing the sound changes, since we're not sure that all the users of the sounds will handle different formats well
<cjwatson> just pinged him on #ubuntu-devel
<slangasek> that's it for outstanding items; let's go around and see what everyone has cooking this week
<seb128> GNOME sound effects are broken in ubuntu at the moment
<slangasek> (mixing up the order a bit, based on external time constraints)
<seb128> ah, it's about downsizing those, ignore me ;-)
<slangasek> and btw, mdz sends his apologies for this week, he's traveling today
<slangasek> [TOPIC] desktop team
<MootBot> New Topic:  desktop team
<slangasek> seb128: but that sounds like an appropriate point to start on anyway :)
<slangasek> pitti, seb128: anything that /should/ be regarded as a blocker for alpha-4 from your side, but isn't?
<pitti> not from my side, AFAICS
<slangasek> note that the list of blockers is currently not very list-like: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1322
<slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1322
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1322
<pitti> the gnome-keyring ssh bug is fixed (that was on last meeting's list)
<slangasek> saw that, thanks :)
<seb128> the "reboot and halt doesn't work" is annoying but out of that no
<pitti> and the shutdown/reboot failure is a more tricky thing
<pitti> but since you can do it from gdm, it shouldn't be much of a problem
<pitti> and suspend to disk/ram works, too :)
<slangasek> yes, I believe the reboot/halt bug has been retargetted to alpha-5
<pitti> camera handling is back to sanity, and mounting of usb disks as well
<pitti> so, I think we are ready for a4
<pitti> apport has been re-enabled by default, that might be something for the release notes
<seb128> we have no sounds events as said before but I don't think that's a blocker
<pitti> still no langpacks, but nothing we can do about it on our side :(
<slangasek> pitti: tkamppeter has a pair of blueprints targetted for alpha-4; do you know if there's more work pending on those which may be disruptive between now and Thursday?
<pitti> seb128: I consider that a bug fix ... :-P
<seb128> ;-)
<pitti> slangasek: the pdf printing workflow?
<pitti> slangasek: I talked about that with him, and it needs some packaging fixes
<pitti> slangasek: but whether it lands or not, it won't be disruptive
<slangasek> printerdriverautodownload, and pdf-as-standard-print-job-format
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> slangasek: ah, p-d-a-d won't make it
<slangasek> hmm, I mean to nominate bug #255485
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255485 in ghostscript "ghostscript has a 300% size increase" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255485
<pitti> pdf-print-format might land on Monday, dpeending on his progress of cleaning up the packaging
<pitti> sounds like spam email :)
<slangasek> there, now it's a bit more list-like :-)
<slangasek> 255485 is that ghostscript has now superseded gsfonts, but still depends on it, so now we have two copies of the fonts on the CD
<pitti> does tkamppeter know? sounds like his area
<slangasek> yes, he's followed up to the bug
<slangasek> pitti: can you coordinate with him to try to get that fixed for alpha-4?
<slangasek> (or to postpone it, if we need to)
<pitti> slangasek: will do, assigning to him and will talk to him
<slangasek> anything else on the desktop side?
 * pitti is fine
<pitti> seb128: ?
 * seb128 is fine too
<slangasek> [TOPIC] kernel team
<MootBot> New Topic:  kernel team
<slangasek> pgraner: how are things in kernel space?
<pgraner> BenC: has been working it this week, I'll let him respond, Ben?
<BenC> kernel space is good
<BenC> I plan an upload later tonight
<slangasek> any ABI changes between now and Thursday?
<BenC> slangasek: doesn't look like it at this point
<pitti> BenC: do we already have 2.6.26.1, btw?
<BenC> we are pretty stable, and mainly in bug fix mode only now
<BenC> pitti: .2 will be coming tonight
<slangasek> cool
<pitti> I guess nobody has a clue about that usplash mess, so we'll postpone that?
<SEJeff> BenC, Will the intel gem kernel based mode setting be backported from .27?
<BenC> I've been looking into the gfx weirdness with uvesafb, if that's what you mean
<BenC> SEJeff: I'm looking into it (and I don't think it's in .27 anyway)
<slangasek> pitti: it's aesthetically nasty, but doesn't need to block the alpha; we of course should have it fixed before beta...
<SEJeff> Actually you're right, but it will be in f10. Thanks
<BenC> atleast not in -rc2
<slangasek> [TOPIC] foundations team
<MootBot> New Topic:  foundations team
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjwatson> X input hotplugging is in, though the introduction was a little rough, breaking cursor key mappings in particular
<cjwatson> network-manager 0.7 is in and working for me ;-)
<cjwatson> (I think Timo has fixed the input hotplugging bug, BTW)
<slangasek> we should have viable desktop CDs now with NM 0.7 on them; time to get some coordinated testing of that?
<cjwatson> asac: could you mail ubuntu-devel-announce with directions for testing, please?
<pitti> n-m 0.7 WFM, too, although it breaks the RF kill switch
<cjwatson> compcache is unlikely to make alpha 4 at this point; Oliver is off sick
<pitti> very smooth upgrade, congrats asac! not a sigle network outage during upgrade, and proper conffile handling, too
<cjwatson> I would try to rescue it, but I'm looking at some of the more urgent irons Oliver had in the fire at the moment instead
<cjwatson> so I think we should defer that to alpha 5
<cjwatson> otherwise nothing major, most of the big installer things are waiting for Evan to get back from vacation
<cjwatson> note that neither Evan nor I will be available next week, so please try not to have any installer bugs kthxbye
<slangasek> :-)
<cjwatson> I'm just shoving ubiquity 1.9.8 up the pipe now
<slangasek> I would offer to stand in, but I'm not available either... :)
<cjwatson> nothing huge there, though
<cjwatson> that's all from me
<slangasek> the milestoned-not-targetted bugs for alpha-4 seem to be mostly OOo, which calc has mentioned he expects to slip to alpha-5
<pitti> seems I'm the last man standing next week, with everyone else being at debconf? :-)
<cjwatson> oh, I'm not at debconf, I'm just away :)
<seb128> pitti: I'll be here too
<slangasek> pitti: not all at DebConf, but spread pretty thin :)
 * pitti hugs seb128
 * seb128 hugs pitti ;-)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] server team
<MootBot> New Topic:  server team
<slangasek> dendrobates: hi
<dendrobates> slangasek: we have no blockers.
<slangasek> any exciting non-blockers that are being worked on between now and alpha-4?
<dendrobates> yes
<dendrobates> landscape-client
<dendrobates> new likewise-open
<dendrobates> tomcat6.x
<pitti> slangasek: do we still do long wiki pages for annoucing alphas, with the new features? (I need to collect those in this case)
<pitti> dendrobates: time to announce ecryptfs-utils as well, now that it's in main?
<slangasek> dendrobates: are any of these landing before the alpha, and if so, what day?
<pitti> kirkland's pride
<cjwatson> dendrobates: there's Dustin's boot-degraded-raid work, too? partly landed
<dendrobates> pitti: yes. good idea.
<slangasek> pitti: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidIbex/TechnicalOverview; I owe some content there :)
<dendrobates> cjwatson: yes moslty done.
<slangasek> dendrobates: speaking of ecryptfs-utils - is that still blocking on me on the PAM side?  I'm making good progress on PAM and expect to have that land late next week, where pam module packages can start using the new framework
<kirkland> slangasek: cjwatson: I'm hoping to have all of the degraded raid stuff in alpha4 for some real installation testing
<slangasek> kirkland: nice :)
<cjwatson> kirkland: that's just blocking on this grub patch I need to review, right?
<slangasek> that's the patch for 33649?
<kirkland> cjwatson: plus on more tiny debconf patch.... i'd like the installer to ask the user if they want to boot degraded, or not (with the default remaining NOT)
<cjwatson> slangasek: yeah
<kirkland> cjwatson: i'm hoping you can identify someone that can review/sponsor that bit in your absence next week?
<cjwatson> kirkland: hmm, that sounds more delicate and might have to wait
<cjwatson> all the people I'd normally ask are away
 * kirkland yields
<slangasek> I had some feedback on the 33649 patch, myself
<slangasek> so I'll follow up with kirkland today
<pitti> slangasek: intrepid-device-permissions is also blocking on the PAM stuff, for the record
<cjwatson> slangasek: oh, thanks
<slangasek> pitti: right
<cjwatson> kirkland: maybe we can sort that out face-to-face week-after-next
<asac> cjwatson: sure. i wanted to wait for initial "hard-regression" reports before calling for testing.
<slangasek> asac: well, if we don't test it /before/ alpha-4, we're sure to get more reports than we want /from/ alpha-4 :)
<asac> slangasek: thats not what i ment
<asac> slangasek: i wanted to wait a day. announcement will go out at end of work day ;)
<slangasek> asac: ok :)
<slangasek> dendrobates: anything else we need to cover with you?
<dendrobates> slangasek: I think we are done,
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
<heno> Nothing major on our radar
<slangasek> heno: it looks like there's been some activity around the smoke testing, in spite of our image size problems?
<heno> we have been smoketesting ISOs indeed
<heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/DailySmoke
<heno> they now seem to work :)
<slangasek> :)
<heno> davmor2 uses dvd images I believe
<heno> dvd medium rather
<slangasek> you highlighted bug #253686 last week; davmor2 told me the other day that all of his regressions were now fixed, so maybe this needs followed up
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 253686 in linux "Intrepid: Alternative cd fails to detect network regression" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/253686
<slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs
<heno> I'll look at that with him
<slangasek> as a general QA note (but not directed solely at heno :), the number of bugs targetted to intrepid as a whole seems to be going up... so anyone with time to kill... :)
<slangasek> heno: anything else you can think of?
<heno> no. I have comments about the number of SRUs we are sing in Hardy still, but that's OT :)
<heno> *seeing
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> mobile team not here; I assume that means we're happy with whatever we do for alpha-4 :-)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] motu-release
<MootBot> New Topic:  motu-release
<slangasek> ScottK: hi, what's new in the universe?
<ScottK> It's pretty quiet.
<ScottK> The big topic recently has been cruft removal
 * slangasek nods
<ScottK> Or: How do we keep Universe maintainable when it grows and we don't have more MOTU.
<pitti> I saw some transitional uploads for NBS packages, thanks
<ScottK> I think there is probably some process work around hinting to us that X is dropped to Universe, you may want to look at pushing it on out.
<slangasek> sure
<ScottK> REVU of new packages is very slow this cycle, so it'll probably be not a huge number of new packages for Intrepid.
<ScottK> That's a good way to get new contributors involved, so I have mixed feelings.
<ScottK> That's it really.
<slangasek> pitti mentioned transitional rebuilds for NBS; is that going well generally, and is there coordination being done?
<slangasek> (or does coordination need to be done?)
<ScottK> I think so far it's been interested individuals.
<slangasek> do you think we would benefit from a concerted effort?
<ScottK> I think we should do it earlier.
<slangasek> (I think the answer is yes because I have to look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/ once a week :)
<slangasek> (or more often)
 * pitti works on that every Friday
<persia> Historically universe NBS has been a post FF thing, although there are persistent efforts to make it a post DIF thing.
<pitti> but I don't do many transitional uploads, I mainly look for stuff to kill
<ScottK> Perhaps we should talk with ubuntu-qa about tools to expose the work needing done better.
<ScottK> We have many energetic young contributors that we need to point in a useful direction.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> we can probably discuss that further off-line?
<ScottK> Sure
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek and ScottK to discuss with ubuntu-qa about tools for identifying work needing done (e.g., NBS rebuilds)
 * pitti has to leave now, sorry; I'll read scrollback
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek and ScottK to discuss with ubuntu-qa about tools for identifying work needing done (e.g., NBS rebuilds)
<slangasek> pitti: thanks :)
<slangasek> ok, I think we've covered most of the agenda already
<slangasek> we did have one carry-over from last week that didn't fit in time, and hasn't been dealt with out-of-band
<slangasek> [TOPIC] scheduling 8.04.2
<MootBot> New Topic:  scheduling 8.04.2
<slangasek> cjwatson: do you have time to talk about this right now and any issues you see with scheduling, or should we defer this to when you're tending fewer irons?
<cjwatson> the general idea has been to do 8.04 point releases about once every six months, time-based
<cjwatson> however, I recognise that 8.04.1 + six months is right after Christmas, which may be a little awkward
<cjwatson> so my suggestion would be to aim for late January, and start paying attention to preparation around mid-November
<slangasek> yes, I agree
<cjwatson> I don't expect the goals to be as ambitious as 8.04.1
<cjwatson> mostly a roll-up, perhaps a few bits and pieces of hardware enablement, that kind of thing
<cjwatson> but enough to keep it fresh
<cjwatson> hoovering up whatever bugs have been legitimately targeted to hardy in the meantime
<cjwatson> (I phrased that very carefully ...)
<slangasek> do you think the 22nd or 29th would be the better target date?
<heno> we've had quite a few SRUs come in after .1 http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<slangasek> I lean towards the 22nd, I think 3 weeks after New Years should be long enough to ramp back up
<heno> so unless we get that amount again I guess most of the work is being done now in fact
<cjwatson> I have a to-do item to send out a note to folks that .1 was a special case, and they don't need to upload quite everything they do to hardy now thank-you-very-much
<cjwatson> 22nd is fine by me
<heno> 22nd wfm as well
<cjwatson> but heno should definitely sign off since he has most of the late-stage work
<cjwatson> ok
<sbeattie> 22nd should be fine by me as well
<slangasek> sold then
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to add 8.04.2 release date (Jan 22) to calendar
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to add 8.04.2 release date (Jan 22) to calendar
<slangasek> anything else for the meeting?
<slangasek> ("AOB"?)
<persia> I'm curious if universe flavours should send members to represent here, or do so through motu-release.
<slangasek> I'm happy to have universe flavors represented directly
<lool> slangasek: Hmm sorry, I was told the meeting was at 16 UTC, not 15
<persia> OK.  I'll poke folk about that.  Presumably they should wave at the beginning of the meeting?
<slangasek> I've unfortunately found it difficult sometimes to get in touch with xubuntu/ubuntustudio/mythbuntu folks in a timely manner in the run-up to milestones
<lool> Glad persia was around
<persia> lool: I didn't represent mobile though.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] mobile team
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile team
<slangasek> lool: we're not over time ye, go ahead :)
<lool> Nothing new ot report :-)
<slangasek> s/ye/yet/
<lool> I just came back from paternity leave
<ScottK> Then I imagine there's something new.
<lool> We discussed today the possibility to replace the hildon stack entirely for intrepid, but this seemed very risky
<slangasek> persia: yes, having them wave at the beginning of the meeting would be helpful
<lool> So the preferred plan is to stick to hildon stuff until it's complete then prepare a replacement
<lool> So we shouldn't have to request particular exceptions like we did in the previous cycles; we should honor all freezes hopefully this time around :-)
<lool> That's about all I can think of concerning release matters
<slangasek> \o/
<slangasek> ok, thanks for the update
<slangasek> any /other/ other business, then?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:17.
<slangasek> thanks, folks!
<lool> Thanks!
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Aug 04:00 UTC: Arizona LoCo IRC | 14 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 14 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 21 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 21 Aug 14:00 UTC: Ubuntu Java Team | 22 Aug 12:00 UTC: Ubuntu MOTU
<effie_jayx> boredandblogging, ping
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-08-04
<Sam-I-Am> mathiaz: howdy
<Sam-I-Am> mathiaz: wondering if you got my last email regarding getting involved in debian/ubuntu slapd
 * mathiaz waves
<Daviey> o/
<Sam-I-Am> howdy
<jmdault> hello
<nijaba> o/
<Sam-I-Am> <- new to these meetings
<mathiaz> let's get this started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nealmcb> o/
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090728
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] SRU tracking on server-related packages
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU tracking on server-related packages
<Daviey> \o/
<mathiaz> so I talked to bdmurray
<mathiaz> and I've got the script to generate a list of bugs that have been fixed
<Daviey> This was a point i raised a few meetings ago.. where certain SRU releases that were reasonably crucial were taking possibly too long to hit the mirrors..  The idea was, should -server team either help or chase
<mathiaz> Daviey: I don't remember exactly what your proposal was. However this topic was about making sure that bug fixed in the development version that are worthy are updated in stable releases
<mathiaz> Daviey: the issue of doing the actual testing is another matter
<mathiaz> I'll publish a weekly updated list of bugs that we can start reviewing in this weekly meeting
<Daviey> ok
<mathiaz> anything else on this topic?
<mathiaz> nope - let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Mysql 5.1 in karmic main
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mysql 5.1 in karmic main
<Daviey> mathiaz: Well the actual script, does it just show packages the -server team care about.. or all SRU releases?
<mathiaz> Daviey: only package relevant to -server
<mathiaz> Daviey: these bugs are not yet on the SRU list
<Daviey> great
<mathiaz> so I've been working on getting MySQL 5.1 in main
<mathiaz> zul filed the MIR
<zul> indeed
<mathiaz> the MIR team is working on the request
<mathiaz> and I've been working on updating the package
<mathiaz> so I expect Mysql 5.1 to be moved to main by this end of the week
<mathiaz> anything else on this topic?
<mathiaz> let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Asterisk
<MootBot> New Topic:  Asterisk
<mathiaz> jmdault: ^^?
<jmdault> Debian put net packages last week
<mathiaz> jmdault: any news?
<jmdault> asterisk-1.6.2.0~dfsg~beta3
<jmdault> this replaces the previous 1.6.0 version
<mathiaz> jmdault: is it in a good state for karmic?
<Daviey> I've sucessfully built asterisk-1.6.2 on karmic with not too much difficulty
<jmdault> It looks good
<mathiaz> Daviey: using the new debian packages?
<Daviey> yah
<Daviey> Well debian svn
<Daviey> which is equal
<jmdault> I had some problems with dahdi 2.0-rc versions, some kernel panics
<mathiaz> Could you remind me why 1.6.2 should be used instead of the current version in karmic?
<jmdault> I tried dahdi 2.0 final, and it fixes all problems
<jmdault> mathiaz: current version in Karmic is 1.4.21
<jmdault> works with the old zaptel drivers, which are obsolete
<jmdault> the current 1.4 series is 1.4.26
<Daviey> Whilst 1.4 is still stable and maintained upstream, we really should look to get onto the 1.6 release prior next LTS IMO
<Sam-I-Am> i'd agree in seeing 1.6 in the next LTS... so its not really old when they deprecate 1.4
<jmdault> We have to switch to dahdi drivers
<jmdault> That's the important thing
<jmdault> =)
<mathiaz> so IIUC the main argument is that we should have 1.6 in the next LTS and it already is available from debian unstable
<Daviey> Now dahdi has been out a while.. i can't see too many issues.  Third party FXO cards drivers seem to work nicely now.
<jmdault> Only problem with 1.6 is that Debian haven't packaged the addons yet
<Daviey> Is it a concern having a zaptel to dahdi migration script as part of upgrade?  It not too much to do it manually, but inversely - should we try and automate it
<Daviey> perhaps too much work.
<jmdault> so no mysql or mp3 support
<jmdault> but it's in svn
<jmdault> so packageable
<jmdault> Daviey: migration from 1.4 to 1.6 is not straightforward, as the syntax has changed a lot
<mathiaz> jmdault: right - let's focus first on merging the pacakge from debian
<Daviey> jmdault: "a lot".. not sure that i fully agree there.. 1.2 -> 1.4 was lots
<jmdault> Daviey: do you think you could come up with migration scripts?
<jmdault> and support them? ;-)
<Daviey> jmdault: The migration aspect i was talking about was zaptel to dahdi
<Daviey> nah :)
<mathiaz> ok - so to summarize:
<mathiaz> astersik 1.6 should be merged from unstable into karmic
<mathiaz> the diff doesn't seem to big
<mathiaz> the diff doesn't seem too big
<Daviey> There is one issue..  we will need to merge pwlib aswell
<mathiaz> Daviey: pwlib? I don't see it as a package in debian
<jmdault> there's a whole stack we should merge
 * nealmcb wishes projects didn't change syntax without easy migration strategies in place
<mathiaz> Daviey: what's the actual name?
<mathiaz> jmdault: do you have a list of packages that should be merged?
<jmdault> Here is a list for 1.4:
<jmdault> https://launchpad.net/~revolution-linux/+archive/asterisk
<jmdault> I don't know yet which ones will work on 1.6
<Daviey> openh323 won't build on karmic unless pwlib is is merged
<Daviey> openh323 is a build dep (of choice) of asterisk
<Daviey> other than that.. it's out of the box rebuild
<mathiaz> ok - so to move on it seems that we first need to come up with a list of all the packages that need to be updated/merged from debian
<mathiaz> could someone generate such a list and put it a wiki page?
<Daviey> I'm happy to, unless jmdault wants to :)
<jmdault> Daviey: go ahead =)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] Daviey to generate a list of packages to be updated for the asterisk stack
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Daviey to generate a list of packages to be updated for the asterisk stack
<mathiaz> anything else on this topic?
<Daviey> slight other note.. i did speak with debian-voip about dkms.. they are not against the idea.. but tbh, they weren't overally familair with the pros/cons
<jmdault> Daviey: I've spent the last week with dahdi issues.
<Daviey> jmdault: :(
<jmdault> Daviey: but dahdi issues have been resolved with the 2.0 final
<Daviey> handy.
<jmdault> Daviey: Debian has 2.0 rc3 or rc5
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on
<Daviey> jmdault: They are aware of the new release.
<mathiaz> is there anything else related to last week minutes?
<jmdault> Daviey: who did you talk to?
<Daviey> jmdault: I'll grab you during the week.
<Daviey>  / after meeting
<jmdault> ok
<mathiaz> that's all I had from last week minutes
<mathiaz> Let's move on to the next point in the agenda:
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server tips - How to implement?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server tips - How to implement?
<mathiaz> nijaba: ^^?
<nijaba> so we now have a list of potential tips
<nijaba> I am thinking into turning them into a fortune file
<Sam-I-Am> do you have a link to them?
<nijaba> package them
<Daviey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/server-tips
<nijaba> and then change motd so that it call "fortune /path/to/the/file"
<kirkland> nijaba: excuse my ignorance...  pam already supports a fortune file?
<kirkland> nijaba: or where would you put this fortune call?
<kirkland> nijaba: i was going to suggest putting it in /etc/update-motd.d ;-)
<Sam-I-Am> since tips would likely get added/updated on an ongoing basis between releases, would newer versions of the package get distributed with usual updates?
<nijaba> kirkland: well, it is really to bring up this kind of question that I wanted to have this topic here
<kirkland> nijaba: fair enough
<jpds> kirkland: ~/.bashrc ?
<Daviey> would it be out of bounds, to have it retrieve a list via http?
<nijaba> kirkland: kirkland: update-motd.d sound good to me
<kirkland> jpds: not bashrc
<kirkland> jpds: too many other shells in use
<mathiaz> Daviey: some systems don't have access to the internet
<nijaba> Daviey: yes, lots of servers do not have http access
<Daviey> jpds: if anywhere, surely /etc/bash.bashrc for systemwide?
<mathiaz> Daviey: and it would slow down the login process
<kirkland> Daviey: that would have to be configurable, at the very least
<Sam-I-Am> Daviey: thats why i was thinking during updates... the machine would have internet access for that usually... or access to an internal mirror.
<Daviey> mathiaz: cached.. not retrieve on login
<kirkland> i think we just merge and release the tips like any other package
<Daviey> ok
<kirkland> we should be very aggressive about gathering tips up to beta
<kirkland> and very agressive about reviewing them thereafter
<Sam-I-Am> what kind of submission/review process would we have?
<Sam-I-Am> suggestion box + commit by ubuntu-server folks?
<nijaba> Sam-I-Am: published and reviewed on the mentioned wiki page
<nijaba> Sam-I-Am: a basic set of rules are availabel at the top
<kirkland> it would help if the sponsor/upload would happen in a large batch
<kirkland> with the submission/review being handled more atomically, more frequently than the upload to the archive
<nijaba> kirkland: not sure I understand your point
<nijaba> kirkland: ah, ok
<kirkland> nijaba: such that we don't upload one new package, version bump, per fortune added
<nijaba> right
<kirkland> nijaba: we add 50 at a time or something
<Sam-I-Am> maybe a monthly package version roll?
<Daviey> sounds sensible
<kirkland> nijaba: say once or twice per week, up to beta
<nijaba> kirkland: I would be surprised if we reach 50 soon
<Daviey> well we could all certainly throw 5 in a week, i imagine.
<kirkland> nijaba: what's the submission process currently?
<kirkland> nijaba: and what's your target number of fortunes?
<nijaba> publish it on the wiki, collective review just before string freeze here
<Sam-I-Am> would this be a default package?  like... what happens if someone decides to replace the motd/fortune with their own.
<nijaba> Sam-I-Am: they can modify the update-motd.d script to tehir leisure
<Daviey> nijaba: Then we really should hammer for translations..
<nijaba> Daviey: right
<nijaba> any volunteer to create the base package?
<Daviey> nijaba: it's your pet project, don't you want it? :)
<nijaba> kirkland: once the base package is done, can you do the motd?
<kirkland> nijaba: try using "quickly"
<kirkland> nijaba: rickspencer just demo'd it to me, it's awesome :-)
<kirkland> nijaba: to create the packaging, i thought that's what he just showed me....
<nijaba> Daviey: yes, but (a) I am not a good packager (b) have no upload rights (c) is an easy one for anyone that want's to have a first package
 * kirkland might be confused
<Sam-I-Am> couldnt you more or less take the existing fortune package and change the fortune contents?
<nijaba> Sam-I-Am: well, no, I want a separate package for the ubuntu specific tips
<nijaba> Sam-I-Am: so that it is more granular to update
<kirkland> nijaba: fortunes-ubuntu ?
<Daviey> fortunes-ubuntu-en
<kirkland> nijaba: i like Sam-I-Am's ide
<kirkland> idea
<Sam-I-Am> or alternatively just add a server tips option to the package
<nijaba> kirkland: of modifying the existing fortune package?
<Daviey> well if nobody else wants to do it, /me throws his hand in the air o/
<kirkland> nijaba: clone something like fortunes-debian-hints
<Sam-I-Am> yeah
 * kirkland high fives Daviey 
<nijaba> kirkland: ah, yes, that's exactly what i think needs to be done
<nijaba> Daviey: great!
<Daviey> it would be  /nice/ to improve the submisson process
<Sam-I-Am> would there be a script to convert approved hints into the package file format?
<Daviey> i mean, anyone can add one right now
<Sam-I-Am> or just commit a text file...
<mathiaz> ok - sounds like we have  a plan
<Daviey> perhaps a submission is a LP bug?
<nijaba> kirkland: would you be willing to help for the update-motd.d part?
<kirkland> nijaba: sure
<nijaba> kirkland: thanks :)
<kirkland> nijaba: it's a one liner in the packaging
<nijaba> kirkland: I bet
<kirkland> we should discuss, though, where in the motd it should go
<kirkland> 00-header  50-landscape-sysinfo  90-updates-available  91-release_upgrade  99-reboot-required
<kirkland> those are ordered
<mathiaz> [ACTION] Daviey to take a look at creating a package base on the fortune* package to include server tips.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Daviey to take a look at creating a package base on the fortune* package to include server tips.
<mathiaz> anything else to add on this topic?
<kirkland> i suggest somewhere before 90
<kirkland> ie, leave the updates available, release upgrade available, and reboot required at the very end
 * nijaba votes for 60-fortunes-ubuntu
<Daviey> mathiaz: streamlining submisson process.. currently adding to the wiki won't scale to a few hundred tips
<Daviey> IMO
<Daviey> and approval etc.
<mathiaz> Daviey: sure. We'll discuss that issue once the problem will arise
<kirkland> Daviey: somewhere after landscape seems reasonable
<nijaba> Daviey: once we have a package/project on lp, we can certainly use bugs
<mathiaz> Daviey: but yes. The current process may not scale.
<Sam-I-Am> i'd say closer to the bottom so it doesnt disappear with the normal stuff
<Daviey> ok
 * Daviey satisfied
<mathiaz> anything else to add on this topic?
<mathiaz> nope - let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<mathiaz> anything else to add/discuss/propose/comment on?
<Sam-I-Am> mathiaz: got a question about involvement with slapd
<Sam-I-Am> mathiaz: i'm the one who's bugging you on email about getting involved... and the process for packaging/merging
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: I've received your message
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: right now in the ball is in the Debian maintainer camp
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: I'll be talking to slangasek tomorrow about the work on cn=config and slapd-cfg
<Sam-I-Am> ok
<Sam-I-Am> so the ubuntu specific patches are maintained on LP?
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: the code is on LP and there is a TODO file in the src tre
<mathiaz> tree
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: Server tips - How to implement?
<Sam-I-Am> ok... trying to make sense of it all.
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: https://code.launchpad.net/~mathiaz/+junk/slapd-scripts-upstream
<Sam-I-Am> i read through your stuff on there
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: you mean ubuntu patches to slapd?
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: they're not maintained in LP - they're part of the ubuntu package
<Sam-I-Am> oh yeah... that part... how the whole debian->merge->ubuntu->add ubuntu patches->release bit works
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: that may take some time to explain
<Sam-I-Am> ha, figured :)
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: but I basically work from the pkg-openldap-maintainer svn tree
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: and merge stuff from there
<Sam-I-Am> thats the alioth svn?
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: yes
<Sam-I-Am> where are the patches specific to ubuntu stored?
<Sam-I-Am> like... cn=config
<Sam-I-Am> and nssov
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: in the ubuntu packages itself
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: there isn't a public branch for it
<Sam-I-Am> ahh ok, that explains the missing piece
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: locally I'm using a bzr loom to handle the different patches
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: however I need to check if I could push the bzr looms to LP
<Sam-I-Am> ok
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: I don't think it works yet
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: if you wanna contribute patches to ubuntu, I'd suggest to branch lp:ubuntu/karmic/openldap
<mathiaz> and then submit the branch for review in LP
<Sam-I-Am> ok
<mathiaz> anything else to add?
<Sam-I-Am> although some of this stuff needs to get tossed into debian...
<Sam-I-Am> its different for me dealing with two slightly different distros
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: yes - development in ubuntu will continue
<Daviey> next?
<mathiaz> Sam-I-Am: right - but I'm working closely with the debian maitnainer
<mathiaz> Daviey: sure
<Daviey> Default Apache homepage.. Does anyone else think the default we are shipping, "It Works!" isn't as slick as some other distros which have pretty defaults?
<Sam-I-Am> cool, thanks
<mathiaz> Daviey: this has been discussed multiple times so far
<Daviey> i must have missed this :)
<kirkland> mathiaz: https://launchpad.net/bugs/89364
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 89364 in apache2 "Apache2 default site contains only the words "It works!"" [Medium,Fix released]
<mathiaz> Daviey: see the bug above for the whole discussion
<mathiaz> we're almost out of time for this meeting
<mathiaz> Daviey: so I'd rather not start a discussion on this now
<Daviey> ok
<mathiaz> Daviey: if you have new arguments - add them to the bug.
<mathiaz> anything else to add before we wrap up?
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> next week, same time, same place?
<Sam-I-Am> sounds good
<jmdault> great
<mathiaz> great then
<mathiaz> see you all next week, same time, same place
<mathiaz> thanks
<Sam-I-Am> seeya
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:00.
<Daviey> thanks
<nealmcb> tips
<nealmcb> ... I just edited https://wiki.ubuntu.com/server-tips to try to clarify some of them and link to launchpad rather than the wiki
<flint_> Does anyone know when the Edubuntu meeting is scheduled for? This information is not apparent on the fridge...
<Pricey> Anyone else around?
<bernard-opic> Yes
<Pricey> (For hte EMEA membership meeting)
<bernard-opic> that's it
<Pricey> will ping everyone in a sec
<Sarvatt> I'm here as well, just barely made it home in time.
<Pricey> Seveas: markvandenborre stgraber phanatic PING
<markvandenborre> pong
<phanatic> pong
<Seveas> pang
<Pricey> Don't think Matthew is online.
<Seveas> is it that time of the month again? :)
<Pricey> Sorted, that's 4!
<Seveas> so, who are todays victims?
<Pricey> So bernard-opic is first. Would you like to introduce yourself?
<bernard-opic> well, first good evening all
<bernard-opic> you may have read a bit about me at Launchpad and the wiki, so I can just explain what makes me ask to be a member
<bernard-opic> as you probably noticed, I switched from Windows to Ubuntu halh and a year ago, and I'm still here
<Seveas> I'm going for -1 based on no documentation of contributions. Bernard, please make sure you come to these meetings well prepared with documented contributions and testimonials from other people in the community
<bernard-opic> well, contribution were correctly listed on the Wiki and Launchpad, as required, would you like details then? I'm a novice here
<bernard-opic> my last one has just been added to Ubuntu Wiki today by Marc -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/KnowledgeBase
<bernard-opic> so, I can rewrite here part of if
<bernard-opic> Spreading Ubuntu: Since I like that distribution I use everyday, I help spreading Ubuntu, mainly trough my personal blog, and more recently via Ubuntu & Co, my new blog at ZDNet France.
<bernard-opic> http://www.zdnet.fr/blogs/ubuntu-co/
<bernard-opic> Helping Ubuntu users: From time to time, I write some tutorials like this one about Ubuntu Netbook Remix install with ImageWriter or this one explaining how to solve sound issues with Intrepid.
<Seveas> your wikipage only links to your blogs, does not mention any contributions to Ubuntu or cooperation with other members. You also have no testimonials from other members of teams you work with, which definitely is a requirement if most of your contributions are in the advocacy area
<bernard-opic> http://blogs.media-tips.com/bernard.opic/2009/04/23/installer-ubuntu-netbook-remix-avec-imagewriter/
<bernard-opic> http://blogs.media-tips.com/bernard.opic/2008/11/19/retablir-le-son-sous-ubuntu-810-intrepid-ibex/
<bernard-opic> News translation: Sometime, I also translate in French some posts from Mark Shuttleworth blog, and more regularly, the Ubuntu Security News.
<bernard-opic> http://blogs.media-tips.com/bernard.opic/category/mark-shuttleworth/
<bernard-opic> http://blogs.media-tips.com/bernard.opic/category/ubuntu-security-notices/
<bernard-opic> here it is
<bernard-opic> does that help?
<bernard-opic> ok Seveas
<markvandenborre> if you're doing quite some ubuntu related promotion work, how do you relate to ubuntu-fr.org?
<Seveas> no. How are we supposed to know these blogposts are even read for instance? Or even what they say (not all of us speak french)
<bernard-opic> Marc Deslauriers adding my translation of the USN is somewhere a kind of recommendation, no?
<bernard-opic> Claire Newman also approved my translation of Mark Shuttleworth blog
<stgraber> Pricey: pong (sort of, quite busy here, sorry)
<bernard-opic> I just considered that is was some usefull cnotribution, at least for spreading Ubuntu
<Pricey> stgraber: emea meeting right now :)
<Seveas> Depends on how long you've been doing that and the quality of the translations. And the value of the contribution depends on whether the articles are read. That's something you should detail on your wikipage *beforehand* and not during a meeting
<stgraber> Pricey: yeah, my cell told me so :)
<bernard-opic> ok Seveas
<bernard-opic> as you want
<bernard-opic> :-)
<bernard-opic> I'm here to help
<bernard-opic> just
<Pricey> bernard-opic: Get people to write on your wiki page, I'm not sure where this approval is from Claire for example.
<bernard-opic> @Pricey, I can forward you her mail :-)
<czajkowski> bernard-opic: see pm
<Pricey> bernard-opic: Its best to get people to write testimonials on your wiki page to vouch for your work.
<bernard-opic> regarding the success of that translations, for example, ubuntu-fr.org frives me hundreds of visitors each days,
<bernard-opic> spreading Ubuntu at my new blog at ZDNet France goes fine too
<Pricey> bernard-opic: Including people from the ubuntu-fr loco :) Even better, they could vouch for you during a meeting.
<Pricey> I'm afraid I am also going to go -1.
<bernard-opic> ok then, we could see that later may be
<Seveas> markvandenborre, phanatic, stgraber?
 * BUGabundo waves
<bernard-opic> vouching for me :-) I asked support but it's holliday time
<phanatic> some testimonials would really help you, so please come back for the next meeting: +0
<stgraber> looking at the wiki now, hang on a sec
<bernard-opic> ok, thanks for your comments, I'll try again may be
<markvandenborre> 0 from me, I'd rather see more explicit testimonials (cooperation with/members of ubuntu-fr.org), and more work within wiki.ubuntu.com for example as opposed to personal site
<stgraber> hmm, all that was said above makes sense for me. I'd also like to see more testimonials and well described contributions (like what you said on IRC and these e-mails), then come back at a later meeting. -1
<markvandenborre> that's not -1, mind you, and I would really encourage you to take this up again soon
<markvandenborre> I do have a feeling that you are doing valuable work!
<bernard-opic> thanks mark, that's nice from you
<Seveas> That's 5 votes, I'm afraid you'll have to try again later bernard-opic. I agree with mark that you could be doing valuable work, but we really need to be sure before we can grant Ubuntu membership. Hope to see you soon
<Seveas> Sarvatt, you're up next, please introduce yourself
<bernard-opic> Thanks for your attention, bye for now
<Sarvatt> Nice to meet you all! I've been involved in ubuntu development since april and have been running the xorg-edgers PPA as well as contributing xorg packages to ubuntu for the past few months. Outside of packaging, I spend a lot of time helping out with bug fixes and helping people in irc (#ubuntu-x and #ubuntu+1 channels usually). Mostly trying to help with problems people have with things such as intel KMS.
<Sarvatt> I realize I haven't been active in the community for very long but I hope my contributions can make up for that in the consideration of my membership. My launchpad profile is here- https://edge.launchpad.net/~sarvatt and my wiki page is here- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Sarvatt
<Seveas> Your contributions look very nice, and it's always good to see someone doing the scary stuff that X provides
<Seveas> But (there's always a but), I'd really like to see someone like Bryce say "Yeah, he's doing a good job" on your wikipage, since I cannot really judge the quality of your contribution
<Sarvatt> he was the one that suggested I go through this process and looked over my wiki page before I did it, I made a mistake not asking him to say something on there :(
<Seveas> heh
<BUGabundo> I would like to say that Sarvatt has been doing a great job on #ubuntu+1, provide *huge* support, debug, and intel on video area.
<BUGabundo> we all in there have learned a lot from him!
<Pricey> Sarvatt: Are you aware of the process of becoming an "Ubuntu Contributing Developer"? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
<stgraber> I have been around on ubuntu-x for a while for various reasons and Sarvatt is clearly active there and helps quite a lot with package testing and bugfixing for Karmic, +1
<stgraber> though it'd have been great to have a comment from Bryce on the wiki page
<Seveas> Sarvatt, did he suggest that in a public irc channel/mailing list? If so, the logs of that will do for me :)
<Sarvatt> Pricey: Yes I am, I want to give it some more time before I apply for MOTU but I am very interested in being a member. Mostly I am not very interested in universe packages, everything I help out with is in main besides intel-gpu-tools.
<Sarvatt> Yes, one moment let me dig up a log for #ubuntu-x
<Seveas> Sarvatt, just the timestamp please. I'll check irclogs.ubuntu.com :)
<Sarvatt> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/07/09/%23ubuntu-x.html
<Sarvatt> 19:19
<Seveas> ok, +1
<Seveas> (not just based on that, also on the comments from BUGabundo and stgraber)
<Seveas> (and the documented work)
<BUGabundo> nods
<Pricey> Sarvatt: I see him suggesting you try to become a Developer!
<Pricey> 19:28 <bryce> you've done considerably more than the typical motu applicant, you're definitely well qualified.
<BUGabundo> I was trying to ping cwillu, but is away
<Sarvatt> Yes, but he also mentions that I should work on having more people sponsor my uploads because I only have him and tjaalton
<BUGabundo> cwillu also has large experience on X packages, and has worked with Sarvatt
<Seveas> Pricey, so that should qualfiy for a membership testimonial :)
<Pricey> Seveas: hmm?
<markvandenborre> +1
<phanatic> +1, great to have people here who can comment on your work
<Seveas> Pricey, if a core developer likes Bryce thinks Sarvatt is ready to become a motu, with that extra compliment attached, I'd say Bryce vouches for Sarvatt for membership as well.
<nealmcb> http://www.zigbee.org/
<BUGabundo> not trying to put Sarvatt work down, but I would like to add, that AFAIR he started his participation on #ubuntu+1 just this cycle
<Seveas> nealmcb, there's a meeting here now. Please take random chatter elsewhere
<BUGabundo> nealmcb: ?
<nealmcb> sorry about that....
<Sarvatt> Yes, I joined the community in april like I said
<Pricey> BUGabundo: My logs show it starting in June for #ubuntu+1, yes.
<Seveas> BUGabundo, yes, since april. That's 4 months now, with impressive contributions.
<Pricey> Yep I think with that little gem from bryce and the other testimonials I'm happy to give a +1 too.
<Seveas> ok, that's +5. Welcome aboard!
<BUGabundo> I can't vote, but if I could, he would get my +1 :)
<Sarvatt> #intel-gfx is where I did most of my support, then I moved on to #ubuntu-x and try to help out in #ubuntu+1 now as well
<Sarvatt> thank you everyone!
<BUGabundo> congrats Sarvatt
<Seveas> "Robert Hooker (sarvatt) has been added as a member of this team."
<bernard-opic> Congratulations!
<Seveas> so launchpad now agrees with the meeting. Meeting ends :)
<Seveas> I probably won't be here sept. 1st, so I'll see you all in October :)
<gQuigs> Congrats!
<BUGabundo> enjoy your vacations Seveas
<Seveas> hah, vacations
<Seveas> I wish :)
<Seveas> I'll be painting and wallpapering and laying floors in my new house :)
<BUGabundo> me too
<BUGabundo> no vacations for me, this year :(
<gQuigs> Community Council meeting up next?
<Technoviking> gQuigs: should be
<Technoviking> Anyone else here for the CC meeting? elmo?
<elmo> Technoviking: hi
<elmo> sabdfl should be coming
<Technoviking> elmo: greets
<elmo> I've been exchanging SMSes with him about it
<Technoviking> Think Daniel is still on vacation, have not heard from mako.
<elmo> that's going to make quorum hard
<Technoviking> yup, we need some new blood:)
<sabdfl> evening all
<Technoviking> sabdfl: evening
<BUGabundo> hey sabdfl
<elmo> sabdfl: hey, technoviking and I are here, but that's it so far
<sabdfl> dholbach's on holiday
<sabdfl> mdke?
<elmo> he's been idle a while, not sure he's around, but I've pinged him
<elmo> we've not heard from mako either
<sabdfl> well, we have agenda items from mdke that we'll have to carry over
<sabdfl> sladen: ?
<sabdfl> ok, current status of the election, we have many nominations
<sabdfl> currently discussing on CC list how to whittle down to roughly 12-15 candidates that I'll nominate
<sabdfl> i believe the election will start in a week or so
<sabdfl> elmo: i believe you're the only person who unsubscribed from the list on time
<sabdfl> very good of you, but we're grandfathered till the election
<sabdfl> that's all from me on the election front
<sabdfl> any other thoughts on the process?
<sabdfl> ok
<gQuigs> just curious, how many nominations total?
<sabdfl> stgraber: around?
<sabdfl> gQuigs: including existing CC members, perhaps 17
<sabdfl> which is *great*
<elmo> sabdfl: (I'm just speed-catching up on archvies)
<sabdfl> i'm seeking comments and confirmations on them and will make nominations
<sabdfl> elmo: welcome back ;-)
<sabdfl> hi matthew
<mdke> sorry I'm late
<mdke> thanks for the reminder :)
<Technoviking> no problem
<mdke> I think sabdfl just tried to apste me too much log :)
<elmo> haha
<sabdfl> oops, got kicked off for flodding mdke with scrollback
<mdke> *paste
<sabdfl> right, now mdke is up to speed...
<mdke> I didn't get much, if there is anything vitally important, perhaps a pastebin; otherwise, just crack on :)
<sabdfl> mdke: just sent key bit
<elmo> process looks fine to me, FWIW
<sabdfl> update on election s tatus for those not on the list
<sabdfl> hey mako
<elmo> sabdfl: how long will the election run, and any thoughts on where to announce it?
<sabdfl> cool! i think we can now actually get stuff done :-)
<mdke> thanks sabdfl
<sabdfl> elmo: i think dholbach had suggestions along the lines of ubuntu-announce
<sabdfl> it's a big election, biggest we've had by far
<sabdfl> hmm... now that i think of it, we still have a big gap in terms of election technology
<mdke> if there is a choice between candidates, Launchpad may not be the right way to achieve that
<mdke> (and it looks like there will be a choice)
<Daviey> mako was working on an independant election platform a few years ago i seem to remember.
<sabdfl> i'd like to do STC or Condorset
<sabdfl> hmm... we'd need some sort of openid+LP-teams
<mako> sure, there are a few options
<mako> i've build something, but it certainly doesn't integrate with LP and it does not do openid
<mako> wikimedia uses a wiki-based plugin which SPI runs for them as outsiders
<mako> both do preferential voting (schulz method) which debian also uses
<sabdfl> python?
<sabdfl> i think openid+teams is easy to add to something in Python
<sabdfl> as a fallback, it will be straight vote-for-the-guys-you-want and those who garner the most votes win
<sabdfl> which is very average, as these things go
<sabdfl> any offers of a better solution?
<sabdfl> anyone want to add preferential voting to LP?
<sabdfl> it's open source now ;-)
<mako> sabdfl: my stuff is in ruby, and i'm sure the mediawiki stuff is in php since it's a mediawiki extension
<sabdfl> :-/
<sabdfl> ok, we fall back to LP then, and max-votes
<sabdfl> i think that's a wrap on the election
<mdke> the question is whether we ask people to try and only vote for the right number of candidates or just let them run riot and vote as many "yes" as they like
<sabdfl> mdke: want to bring us up to speed on the wiki question?
<sabdfl> mdke: hard to enforce
<Daviey> Would that be one poll per candidate, or one poll for all.. I seem to remember from the poll system, you could only have one vote per poll.. Or is that resolved?
<mdke> yeah, so asking in the first place might distort the vote
<sabdfl> Daviey: good question
<sabdfl> could be complicated - for example, what if someone gets a lot of no votes?
<Daviey> Well the question can be posed, "Which candidate?" and you can't vote no, positve only.  But if one poll, you can only vote A, B or C.. Not A & B
<Daviey> I may be mistaken, to be fair.
<mako> why wouldn't we allow people to vote for all candidates they approve of
<mdke> we'll have to do that, IMO
<mako> ok then :)
<nellery> will it be yes/no or just yes?
<mdke> I've never liked competition between candidates :(
<mdke> nellery: I think Launchpad is basically a yes/no system at the moment
<czajkowski> mdke: then list the candidates, have a tick box/radio button beside then select say a max of say 4 (or how ever many psoitons there are ) out of how ever many and click submit, final
<mdke> czajkowski: right but Launchpad doesn't give us that technology
<Technoviking> We also have the problem if all CC members terms ending at once
<sabdfl> that's by design now
<czajkowski> mdke: it does do tick boxes, like on translations?
<czajkowski> click and submit
<sabdfl> i think we have to go with what we have, i'll ask dholbach to look into it
<mdke> czajkowski: I don't think the poll feature does it
<mdke> anyway, we'll look into it and announce in due course
<mdke> on the wiki issue, there isn't much to add to the agenda description at the moment. Daniel and I thought that we should write a similar spec to the way it was done for the help wiki, but wanted to raise it here first to identify some of the key issues
<mdke> I recall that when we discussed this before, there was a concern about licensing code/artwork
<mdke> and similar things that regularly appear on the team wiki
<mdke> those things weren't an issue with the help wiki when we decided on the licensing scheme
<mdke> my initial feeling is that the amount and variety of content on the team wiki is so vast
<sabdfl> the agenda says this was catalysed by fedora blogs?
<mdke> that we'd need to give the option to users to specify individual licenses
<mdke> sabdfl: yes, correct
<sabdfl> is this just a knee-jerk response or is there a real issue?
<mdke> I'll dig the link out
<mdke> personally, I think that as a matter of principle it would be better if the wiki was licensed. I don't know whether it's actually a huge deal, i.e. if people are actually trying to use content, and failing because of the copyright
<mdke> here is a blog post that raised the issue - http://www.stefanoforenza.com/ubuntu-wiki-lock-in/
<mdke> another - http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/06/25/ubuntu-wiki-not-shareable/
<mdke> ok, so there is an example of someone wanted to use content and failing :)
<mako> that seems strange
<mdke> I remember when we licensed the help wiki, we did discuss the team wiki issue, but I didn't really want to take it on because it raised a number of different issues which would have slowed down the process of licensing the help wiki. but now may be a good time to sort it out
<Technoviking> Should we requite all new material to be CC licensed?
<mako> so, with wikimedia's migration to CC BY-SA, many other wikis have switched
<sabdfl> i have no issue with CC-BY-SA
<mako> i don't see why we wouldn't move everything we can to by-sa
<sabdfl> with the ability to do other licenses for code etc
<mdke> should we prescribe a license for code?
<mako> when we talked about this early on, there wasn't a clear winner in the space but things have basically settled out at this point
<sabdfl> agree with mdke, will need to allow for some flexibility on a per-object basis, with guidelines for free-over-non-free
<sabdfl> so let's do it
<sabdfl> can we have a vote on the following proposal:
<sabdfl>  - mdke and dholbach to investigate broadly licensing team wiki as CC-BY-SA (c) Canonical, with the ability to create exceptions as needed for certain content types
<sabdfl>  - if no blockers, mdke and dholbach empowered to make the change real
<sabdfl> ?
<mdke> sounds fine
<Technoviking> +1
<mdke> it will be another mass email job
 * sabdfl can't work mootbot
<mdke> just one point, while we're here
<elmo> err, not to be the wanna-be lawyer kill joy, but are we talking about copyright assignment here?
<elmo> (I notice you say (c) Canonical is why I ask)
<mdke> that's what I was going to come on to
<mdke> I've been thinking about this in relation to ubuntu-docs, which also says (c) Canonical
<mdke> it's actually wrong
<mdke> the copyright is of the author
<sabdfl> any other way is madness
<mdke> I don't mean it's wrong morally
<sabdfl> we can't relicense if we can't reach people
<mdke> I mean it's incorrect
<mdke> the material isn't copyright of canonical
<mdke> without copyright assignment, as elmo says
<sabdfl> can we address that?
<mako> well, we change the license for any future content added and deal with the rest later
<mako> by talking to a lawyer for example
<mdke> we need to make a distinction between copyright and license
<mdke> the license can be changed by agreement, and I think it's reasonable to adopt the approach we did last time - i.e. email everyone and ask for objections
<elmo> mdke: I'm not a lawyer, but I think there's some serious and vigourous handwaving involved there
<mdke> the copyright can only be reassigned by a written document signed by each author
 * mdke nods
<elmo> I think if we can find a light weight process to do copyrigt assignment, we should do that
<elmo> if only to make the relicensing process more legitmate
<mdke> yeah, there is definitely handwaving
<elmo> since, is the 2nd time in 5 years we've wanted to do it
<mdke> well, we could get a copyright expert to give an opinion on whether there is anyway to get around the "signature" requirement
<mdke> but lawyers are naturally cautious creatures, I'm not hopeful
<elmo> mdke: even if we used something weaker than a signature, it would imply a level of consent for future reassignment that I think beats are current "mail and pray" approach
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> we should definitely put it in place for any future edits
<sabdfl> and we can include the proposal in the mass mail and call for discussion
<sabdfl> deciding where we stand after that
<mako> yeah, that sounds good
<mdke> elmo: I'm not sure, the mail and pray approach worked before, because if a person doesn't act on the email, they are unlikely to act later; and I would argue that in the event that anyone later tries to enforce copyright, we can immediately remove the relevant content
<mdke> elmo: but this is definitely worth some further thought
<elmo> mdke: (not if it gets copied onto the CD we can't) - but sorry, we don't need to continue this here + now
<elmo> sabdfl: +1
<mdke> ok, good point, I'll shut up
<mdke> +1 on sabdfl's proposal
<sabdfl> mako?
<mako> +1 from me
<mako> still sounds good :)
<sabdfl> ok
<elmo> Technoviking: ?
<sabdfl> ...said +1 immediately
<sabdfl> so that's a mandate for mdke and dholbach, modulo gotchas they uncover
<sabdfl> stgraber: around?
<mdke> chaps I'm going to have to duck out I'm afraid, sorry for leaving before the end
<mdke> you know my views on both Ubuntu One agenda items from email :p
<sabdfl> we're wrapping
<sladen> groovy
<sabdfl> i've no stomach for those now!
<mdke> heh
<mdke> ok, fine
<sabdfl> thanks all
<sabdfl> hi sladen
<sabdfl> were you waiting?
<sladen> sabdfl: nope.
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> phew
<sabdfl> felt briefly bad :-)
<sabdfl> thanks all and good night
<mdke> night
<Technoviking> night
<mako> later everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-08-05
<statik> !
<flint_> ogra, what of edubuntu?
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-08-06
 * persia peers about
 * geser is also here
<persia> Ah good.  I was getting worried I had the wrong day, as I'm rarely about at this time.
<geser> let's see if we get a quorum: jpds, soren, nixternal, nhandler are you around?
<persia> Hrm.  That doesn't look promising.
<geser> I find it a little bit shameful for the MC to not reach quorum again after asking the applicants for a reschedule :(
<cody-somerville> :-(
<persia> I have to agree with that, all the more so since I didn't expect to be able to make this meeting due to the timing.
<cody-somerville> If the meeting isn't going to happen, I'm going to go run an errand - kay? :]
<geser> cody-somerville: sorry, it doesn't look to happen again unless two more MC members appear spontaneously
<geser> persia: I'd suggest that we handle both applicants per mail as we don't seem to reach quorum. perhaps even pass cody-somerville's applicantion directly to TB/DMB
<persia> I don't think that will work at all.
<persia> We've changed how we do things enough that we ask useful questions, etc.
<persia> I like the asking of questions, but we no longer have a body of developers that all feel involved in the process, and state their support and criticisms.
<persia> (and help us devise questions and tasks)
<persia> Plus, we tend to be bad about email anyway.
<persia> I'm not opposed to the use of email, just have little confidence that it would work better.
<geser> persia: true, but currently aren't any better on IRC either
<persia> True.
<persia> This week is awkward, as two of us are on a trip, but that doesn't explain why the other three are missing.
<geser> I've the feeling that we are doing lously without dholbach :(
<persia> Perhaps.  I think it's also that ArchiveReorg has taken so long, that there are many uncertainties, and similar things.
<geser> so how do we handle this now?
<persia> My best suggestion is to talk about it Wednesday.  At least we usually get quorum then.
<geser> asking the applicants for an other reschedule without knowing that we will reach quorum the next time doesn't sound good
<geser> the last meeting didn't happen, the meeting before was delayed by 4 hours (till we reached quorum)
<geser> and when looking at the participation at our private meetings doesn't look promising to reach qourum the next time either
<geirha> MC = Media Center?
<persia> geirha, MOTU Council.
<geirha> Ah
<persia> geser, I thought we often hit quorum there, but maybe I'm counting wrong.
<persia> But many of us are not here, and we'll not address that now.  Let us retire in shame, and work with the rest to try to avoid this in the future, while doing our best to process our pending applications.
<geser> we reach quorum there but the other half of the team is still missing regularly, but let's move this to mail
<persia> Yeah.
<geser> gilir: sorry, the MC meeting is not happening again :( the MC will discuss it and let you and cody-somerville know how we proceed with your applications
<gilir> geser: ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-08-07
<lool> Hi there
<ogra> where ?
 * pgraner waves
<heno> hey
 * fader_ waves.
<ttx> o/
<slangasek> hello
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> [LINK] Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-08-07
<MootBot> LINK received:  Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-08-07
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Team
<slangasek> so, let's dive right in :)
 * ogra puts on the snorkel
<fader_> Hardware testing:
<fader_> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<fader_> We're not seeing any major issues on desktops or servers at the moment -- there are some 'fail's that are nautilus crashing on startup, which is bug 403549
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 403549 in nautilus "nautilus crashed with SIGSEGV immediately after start up" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403549
<fader_> (One server was not being tested but that was due to a DHCP configuration issue which is now resolved)
<fader_> A couple of laptops are not able to PXE boot as the install environment does not recognize their ethernet hardware -- bug 404264
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 404264 in linux "karmic installer fails to detect Intel 82567 network card" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/404264
<fader_> mathben, the intern who is helping us test laptops, is in the Montreal office today and gathering the information about requested by the kernel team, so this is in progress
<fader_> Finally, checkbox now contains a suite to run mago.  What this means is that we will get (GTK) application tests along with the current hardware tests, greatly increasing our automated test coverage.
<heno> spec update:
<heno> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-increase-apport-adoption - Blocked on the LP team
<heno> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-metrics-based-testing - In progress, on track for alpha 4
<heno> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-daily-desktop-testing - Implemented
<heno> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-extended-audio-testing - moved to alpha 5
<heno> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-package-testing - Implemented
<pitti> sorry, forgot about the time change
<heno> any questions for QA?
<slangasek> fader_: does 403549 break the test completely?
<slangasek> i.e., should those be considered failures as opposed to successes
<slangasek> ?
<fader_> slangasek: No, nautilus restarts itself immediately.  The reason it is a 'fail' is that one of the tests is ~'make sure /var/crash is empty after install'
<slangasek> ok
<fader_> Nautilus crashes and leaves a file there, so the above test reports a fail
 * slangasek bumps that bug up, then
<fader_> FYI, for those who have not seen it, mago is the desktop application testing framework that is being headed up by ara
<slangasek> Blocked on the LP team - do we need to try to escalate something to get that unblocked, or are we better off continuing to defer the spec...?
<fader_> It allows us to automatically test clicks, menus, text entry, etc.
<heno> http://mago.ubuntu.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://mago.ubuntu.com/
<pgraner> slangasek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<slangasek> no other questions from here
<heno> slangasek, I've escalated to Kiko today
<slangasek> heno: alright
<pgraner> slangasek: -EWRONGPASTE
<slangasek> anyone else have questions for QA?
<heno> QA team done
<slangasek> pgraner: ok :)
 * slangasek escalates bug #404264 as well
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 404264 in linux "karmic installer fails to detect Intel 82567 network card" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/404264
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team
<slangasek> pitti: hello
<pitti> as usual, our current status is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> Since the last meeting we landed a lot of features and structural changes (see "Changes since alpha-3").
<pitti> We still need to land the gnome-bluetooth change and the new xsplash, but the integration of the latter will not be done for alpha-4.
<pitti> not much progress on the bug front, though, we are still running full steam on landing new features
<slangasek> what's "the" gnome-bluetooth change?  I thought gnome-bluetooth is already being pulled in now?  (It was for me on upgrade)
<pitti> the only really nasty issue is the KDE network manager issue
<pitti> slangasek: I was told it'd happen "RSN", so maybe that was done now
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> I don't see it on ubuntu-desktop yet, though
<slangasek> fwiw, gnome-bluetooth's applet UI includes a laundry list of regressions for me, which I'll be filing soon
<slangasek> so the fusa fix-up is landing for alpha-4?
<pitti> right
<pitti> Ted said "it will be done this afternoon unless people keep asking" :)
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> NM 0.8 breaking Kubuntu NM support again... is there some way we can get ahead of this problem?
<Riddell> On the Kubuntu side plasma-netbook has just arrived in universe and I want to get that on kubuntu-netbook image for the alpha
<Riddell> slangasek: asac and awe are looking at NM 0.8 and KDE now, we need to keep them supplied with coffee until they fix it
<slangasek> pitti: on bug #386699, is are #397288 and #398685 really duplicates of it?  They seem to describe an inverse problem
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 386699 in gvfs "Mistakes external USB flash disk for system-internal disk" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/386699
<slangasek> Riddell: is plasma-netbook related to NM, or is it something else entirely?
<Riddell> slangasek: that's unrelated
<slangasek> ok
<Riddell> also the DX team gave me message indicator for Kubuntu this week which needs some MIR changes but I hope to get that into the alpha too
<slangasek> sounds good
<pitti> slangasek: I fixed the dup link of 397288
<pitti> slangasek: the other seems like a real duplicate to me
<slangasek> pitti: it's not
<slangasek> 398685 is the same bug as 397288
<pitti> 398685 is a dupe of bug 386699 (just fixed)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 386699 in gvfs "Mistakes external USB flash disk for system-internal disk" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/386699
<pitti> oops, I meant "that was already correct"
<pitti> bug 397288 was a false dupe of that, it's really a dupe of bug 396448
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 397288 in gvfs "karmic auto-mounts non-removable drives (dup-of: 396448)" [Low,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/397288
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 396448 in gvfs "inconsistent automounting on startup" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/396448
<pitti> oh, and Seb just tells me that new gnome is scheduled for Monday; I'll ask him to be extra-careful to not break anything
<slangasek> pitti: when you say "not a release blocker" in the report for bug #396448, do you mean the milestone or the karmic release as a whole?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 396448 in gvfs "inconsistent automounting on startup" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/396448
<slangasek> because I beg to differ for the latter - having a pop-up on every login if the user has partitions not in the fstab should be considered a release blocker
<pitti> slangasek: oh, it definitively needs fixing for karmic, but it shuldn't block Alpha-4
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> slangasek: full ack
 * slangasek finishes digesting the report
<slangasek> no more questions here
<slangasek> anyone else?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile Team
<slangasek> pitti: thanks
<lool> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<lool> Lotsof updates but nothing much to talk about
<lool> Just want to highlight that we're not releasing mx51 images for A4
<lool> These are postponed to A5
<slangasek> yes, due to delays in the kernel availability that we've discussed
<slangasek> unfortunate, but we'll roll with it
<pgraner> lool: I thought the reason we busted ass to get you a kernel today was so you could make A4
<pgraner> lool: wtf?
<lool> pgraner: We need udebs
<pgraner> lool: we asked that and the answer was no
<lool> We could have a non-installable image but it's not very useful
<pgraner> lool: we will take this offline
<slangasek> kernel without udebs gives a target that can be upgraded to and used for testing, but not for installation
<lool> It's better than no kernels but we wont have an unseful image
<lool> We will have something useful in the archive which is good
<cjwatson> Tim came to me with a concern about kernel-wedge, which I'm hoping to deal with before I finish today (or at worst while travelling home this weekend); that would make life easier I understand
<lool> pgraner: It is useful though
<lool> pgraner: lets bring it offline indeed
<lool> Questions?
<cjwatson> actually, if I could get a sample image, it would help me in improving kernel-wedge
<slangasek> lool: anything to add regarding the buildd roll-out?
<lool> slangasek: I evaluated hardware and will have a call with elmo after this meeting
<slangasek> ok
<lool> We're sending all the boards we can spare to IS to act as buildds
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> no other questions here
<slangasek> others?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Team
<slangasek> lool: thanks
<slangasek> pgraner, rtg: hello
<pgraner> slangasek: Hello
<pgraner> slangasek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic is for the bulk of our status
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<pgraner> slangasek: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/384579  is still on the list and we are waiting for input from testers
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 384579 in linux "Linux thinks thereâs a floppy drive when thereâs not. Probing slows down bootup by almost a minute." [Unknown,Confirmed]
<slangasek> right
<slangasek> looks like we've been waiting already for a while; maybe the submitters need prodded?
<pgraner> slangasek: ogasawara is doing that as we type
<slangasek> the status listed for the AppArmor bug says "will be enabled in the next upload", but it already is
<slangasek> ok, cool
<slangasek> and jjohansen appears to be working on that bug as we speak, so that tells me the status :)
<pgraner> slangasek: yep, its being moved out of the kernel moving to userspace
<slangasek> ok, sounds good
<slangasek> any specs in particular that you think need discussion?
<pgraner> slangasek: not at this point, next week will be a more interesting meeting after the work this week
<slangasek> and does anyone else have questions on the kernel team?
<slangasek> pgraner: indeed :)
<pgraner> s/work/work we did/
<pgraner> Any other questions?
<slangasek> seems not
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
<slangasek> pgraner: thanks
<pgraner> slangasek: np
<cjwatson> silly network
<cjwatson> 408901 is in progress (liw); 402850 is done according to evand
<cjwatson>  * foundations-karmic-apturl-policy: mostly done, last pieces blocked on LP bug 118870 and bug 385129
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 118870 in soyuz "$sourcepackage/+changelog only shows one entry per distrorelease pocket" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/118870
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 385129 in soyuz "add PPA dependencies information to the api" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/385129
<cjwatson>  * foundations-karmic-robust-python-packaging: mvo has a branch for that but is on leave
<cjwatson>  * foundations-karmic-upgrade-support-in-landscape: platform side of this believed to be done, Landscape team to confirm that it actually works for them
<cjwatson>  * foundations-karmic-cloud-setup-in-server-installer: implementation not started, but this is top-priority and we thrashed out a step-by-step plan at the platform sprint this week; may slip Alpha 4 slightly (a week at most)
<cjwatson>  * foundations-karmic-grub2: running behind, but cjwatson has WIP to address the immediate UI concerns, and upstream is keen to hoover up the major remaining missing features
<cjwatson>  * foundations-karmic-power-management: I believe this is well underway; RM? ;-)
<cjwatson>  * foundations-karmic-iscsi-installer-support: installer side done (uploads underway), boot side pending fighting with kvm to get a test environment
<cjwatson> I don't think those LP pieces desperately need escalation; while they're ugly, they're not critical
<cjwatson> ... 408901 apparently not so in progress after all
<cjwatson> so we'll need to work more on that
<slangasek> cjwatson: who needs to follow up with the landscape team on upgrade-support-in-landscape?
<cjwatson> I'll go and grab Gustavo after this and see if he knows anything about it
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to follow up with Gustavo on foundations-karmic-upgrade-support-in-landscape:
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to follow up with Gustavo on foundations-karmic-upgrade-support-in-landscape:
<cjwatson> robust-python-packaging: doko said that you (slangasek) had concerns about defaulting python-central to include-links
<cjwatson> those concerns are not expressed in the spec AFAICS. Could you elaborate?
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to look at 408901
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to look at 408901
<slangasek> foundations-karmic-power-management: yes, this is underway :)
<cjwatson> WRT robust-python-packaging, given that mvo is on leave, I am wondering whether it would make sense to defer this and apply case-by-case workarounds to packages of priority >= standard or in the middle of complex dep chains that are affected by the problem in question
<slangasek> certainly the pulling bits out of acpi-support that are redundant is well on its way; the reimplementing of bits we don't have elsewhere, not sure how complete that'll be for karmic
<slangasek> (considering devicekit upstream still doesn't provide all the interfaces hal did - so this is probably blocked on Halsectomy, somewhat)
<pitti> like, converting remaining ACPI keycodes to input events? (that needs to happen in the kernel, not userspace)
<slangasek> cjwatson: robust-python-packaging: will have to follow up out-of-band, I don't have any of that state where I can reach it in my brain right now.  I probably assumed any objections I raised at UDS were being recorded by someone else in the session...
<cjwatson> the spec is basically a mess, it has lots of items that haven't been followed up on
<slangasek> but case-by-case in the relevant dep chains would seem to be better than nothing?
<cjwatson> yes, definitely
<cjwatson> in particular lsb-release keeps rearing its ugly head
<slangasek> pitti: like replacing hal-addon-input
<slangasek> +d
<cjwatson> fixing that will require converting it to python-central, unfortunately (from the POV of amount of work required)
<cjwatson> apparently there's been discussion of the python-support changes but it's currently stalled on Joss
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek, cjwaston, doko to discuss robust-python-packaging further
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek, cjwaston, doko to discuss robust-python-packaging further
<pitti> slangasek: sorry, seems I keep forgetting what this does, except for propagating power/lid changes, etc.
<slangasek> let's move that out-of-band from here, then
<cjwatson> ok
<slangasek> pitti: ISTR the issue is that it /doesn't/ do more, and we didn't fix it to do more because devicekit was The Answer, so there are bits still handled only by acpi-support with nowhere to move them
<slangasek> hmm, I may mean hald-addon-acpi rather than hald-addon-input
<slangasek> but anyway
<slangasek> any other questions for Foundations team (that we shouldn't take out-of-band)?
<pitti> slangasek: I'll TTYL about that (out of band)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team
<slangasek> cjwatson: thanks
<slangasek> ttx: hi
<ttx> hey
<ttx> So the current status is now aavilable at
<ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<lool> Nice!
<lool> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<ttx> On the bugs list, there is the Likewise-Open5 (universe) issue
<ttx> Basically we were waiting for a code drop from upstream to solve krb-1.7 compatibility
<ttx> Now it appears they won't deliver anything in time, so the backup plan is...
<ttx> to use the Likewise private kerberos library instead.
 * slangasek nods
<ttx> That makes it a non-main target
<ttx> but should fix the issue for our users
<ttx> On the alpha4 radar now...
<slangasek> right
<slangasek> (ideally we wouldn't have to do this in universe either, but obviously we have few choices here)
<ttx> The big thing is that we'll try to release an EC2 Alpha4 release
<ttx> at the same time as the regular alpha4, obviously
<ttx> that still needs some sync with the release team, but that's being worked out
<slangasek> yes, I spoke with dendrobates a little earlier about what he would need to give us to have that included; sounds like things are on track
<ttx> yes.
<ttx> Other progress/alpha4 targets are described on the report...
 * slangasek nods
<ttx> let me know if you have any questions about that.
<slangasek> looks straightforward - no questions from me
<slangasek> anyone else?
<slangasek> ttx: btw, if you mark the specs as 'UbuntuSpec:name' in your report, the wiki will give you links :)
<ttx> slangasek: sorry, this is brand-new, and finished liek 2 minutes before the meeting :)
<slangasek> sure, no problem
<ttx> thx for the tip though :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> ttx: thanks
<slangasek> ScottK: you don't happen to be around this morning?
<lool> slangasek, ttx: done (spec links_
<slangasek> short notice, so if we don't have anyone to speak on behalf of ubuntu-motu I'll follow up off-line
<ttx> lool: hey, cool :)
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to follow up with ScottK off-line
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to follow up with ScottK off-line
<slangasek> [TOPIC] ISO size
<MootBot> New Topic:  ISO size
<slangasek> seems that we have some images just above size, and most are under size
<slangasek> but we also have had to remove all langpacks to get them to that level in the first place
<slangasek> pitti: anything you want to add on this topic?  I know you guys have some more help translation stripping in the works
<slangasek> actually, today's alternate images seem to be larger than yesterday's
<pitti> right, but I still need to write hte langpack-o-matic mechanics for this
<pitti> for alpha-4 we probably need to kick out a langpack
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> there are some that we can kick out again?
<slangasek> I thought we were down to 0
<pitti> the tarball collection seems to work fine now \o/
<pitti> slangasek: I added three or so, to preempt people wanting to add other crack :)
<slangasek> ah, good call :)
<slangasek> thanks. :)
<pitti> well, we'll still get some DX packages
<pitti> OLS, I mean
<pitti> slangasek: the amd64 one doesn't seem to build right now, haven't looked into that yet
<slangasek> so it sounds like we don't have to worry too much for alpha-4, and have some more work in progress that will help between now and final
<slangasek> anyone want to throw out ideas on shrinking the CDs further?
<slangasek> (shrink rays!)
<pitti> I talked to seb128, gtkhtml is very sticky unfortunately
<slangasek> oh?
<pitti> I don't think we can kick it out for karmic
<pitti> it's not that big, though
<slangasek> drat
 * slangasek nods
<pitti> and I'm afraid we are finally nailed to webkit
<slangasek> so clearly we should kick out xulrunner :)
<slangasek> ok, so we'll continue to keep watch on ISO sizes as usual
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<slangasek> anything else before we wrap?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:02.
<slangasek> thanks, all
<pitti> thanks all
<lool> cheers
<mac9416> Hey, y'all, is there to be some sort of a "LoCo tools" meeting in here at in 30min.?
<popey> so my calendar tells me, yes mac9416
<popey> but bed for me..
<mac9416> OK, thanks. Take it easy, popey :-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-08-09
<jussi01> Good morning all!
 * Pici yawns
<nalioth> if you say so :)
<Pricey> Allo
<jussi01> ooh, we are all here! :D excellent!
<nalioth> can someone start up mootbot?
<Pricey> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 02:02. The chair is Pricey.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * Hobbsee waves
<Pricey> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<Pricey> I guess we'll start at the start?
<jussi01> why not?
<jussi01> :D
<Pici> Sounds logical
<Pricey> [topic
<Pricey> [topic] Criteria for +v in #ubuntu-ops and the future and function of the IRC team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Criteria for +v in #ubuntu-ops and the future and function of the IRC team
<jussi01> Currently there is a rather haphazard way of adding people to the voiced (+v) operator list in #ubuntu-ops. We need to have a uniform and standardized proceedure for eligibility for +v in #ubuntu-ops. The purpose of +v is to show users who are operators in the channels that #ubuntu-ops covers, to understand who can deal with their query.
<jussi01> Therefore, in my understanding, an operator in one of the core channels, that are managed by the ubuntu-irc team and come under the scope of #ubuntu-ops, should have +v in that channel. All others should not be permitted under the no idle rule.
<jussi01> Thoughts?
<jussi01> To slightly add to that, myrtt asked about how that works for freenode staff.
<jussi01> myrtti
<Pricey> Do we have a list of 'core channels' anywhere?
<Pici> I was just going to ask that as well.
<tsimpson> staff have access in our "core channels", so get +v (IMO)
<jussi01> Pricey: I dont beleive so. perhaps that needs to be defined?
<Pricey> I think it would help.
<tsimpson> most/all the channels under "Support and talk channels" (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat) should be "core", right?
<tsimpson> there are others though, like -devel channels
<Pici> I think the -team channel should be core as well though.
<Pricey> I don't agree with all.
<tsimpson> how does #ubuntustudio-* incorporate? (or does it at all?)
<jussi01> nalioth: whats your opinion?
<elky> i'm here!
<jussi01> elky: great.
<nalioth> i thought the loco teams were not considered "core channels"
<jussi01> nalioth: +1
<elky> nalioth, they never have been. unless extenuating circumstances such as becoming havens for misbehaviour, they've always been left to their own devices.
<Pici> We have #ubuntu-irc for loco channels, would anything else fall under -core channels or are we just going to have to cherrypick from what we currently have access to?
<nalioth> #ubuntustudio has a forward from #ubuntu-studio, but is not "officially" supported by Canonical
<elky> i think if we overcatagorise, it's only going to become more confusing and less useful
<jussi01> nalioth: as I understand it, Ubuntu studio has similar if not same status as xubuntu.
<elky> i see -irc as being "team channels" rather than "core channels", so not even limited to "loco"
<jussi01> elky: I had the same feeling.
<elky> main derivative channels though, are something beyond "team" though, imho.
<tsimpson> I guess "core" should be (official)-variant support/devel/offtopic
<jussi01> tsimpson: that sounds sane. however, define official.
<nalioth> tsimpson: aside from (official)-[country code]*
<tsimpson> canonical official
<Pricey> -devel ?
<tsimpson> "(official)-[country code]*" is loco, which we all seem to agree is -irc
<nalioth> Pricey: yes
<jussi01> So something along the lines of http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/derivatives - officially supported + recognized?
<Pricey> Are they not looking after themseles?
<Pici> which?
<Pricey> -devel
 * Hobbsee wonders how ubuntu netbook remix fits into all of this
<nalioth> Pricey: we're not here to decide who "looks after themselves", but which channels are 'core channels' for the purposes of having an op presence in -ops
<Hobbsee> -devel tends to look after itself (please poke myself or others on the ops list around and we'll drop into -ops)
<Pricey> oh but they can 'stay' in -ops...
<Pricey> okies
<Pici> UNR doesn't have its own support channel afaik.
<jussi01> or, alternately, the "canonical sponsored" list here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DerivativeTeam/Derivatives
<tsimpson> Pici: does for Kubuntu
<Pici> Oh?
<tsimpson> or is that just devel..
<jussi01> tsimpson: just devel afaik
<tsimpson> yes, the wiki agrees :)
<jussi01> ok, so lets try get a resolution here? are we using the list here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DerivativeTeam/Derivatives (sponsored) or here http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/derivatives (supported + recognized) ?
<Pici> so.. $officiallysupported-[devel|offtopic] and #ubuntu+1?
<elky> is the /Derivatives list current... i mean, are all those still active derivs?
<jussi01> elky: gobuntu an jeos are the only 2 Im not certain about
<elky> Pici, what about if derivs want us to manage more than just that for them, though?
<elky> jussi01, which is why it's worth clarifying
<Pricey> or not do anything at all
<Pici> elky: Sounds like they should be in -irc then
<jussi01> Ok, my proposal is to go with the list on http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/derivatives - thoughts?
<tsimpson> I would side with the officially supported and recognize
<Pricey> Could we write down our own separate list.
<nalioth> i agree with jussi01
<Pricey> copying that one if necessary
<jussi01> Pricey: do you feel something is missing from that list?
<Pricey> jussi01: no no, just we are in control of a list we write ourselves.
<tsimpson> "core" should be clearly defined under the team wiki somewhere, if only for reference
<jussi01> tsimpson: agreed.
<Pricey> Can we get something written down and then we can all agree on it at some point? But for now move on as we have a general idea of what we want?
<jussi01> I think maybe if we say something like: the list on http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/derivatives + others under the IRCC discretion.
<nalioth> Pricey: that list jussi01 linked to is 'what we want'.  we are not responsible for non-official *buntu deriviatives
<jussi01> Pricey: can we at least agree on the concept that +v is given to core channels ops, (in -ops), with a core channel list to be defined?
<tsimpson> hmm, what will happen to those ops that now have +v, but aren't ops in core channels?
<nalioth> we'll move them to -irc
<Pricey> [VOTE] +v is given to core channels ops, (in -ops), with a core channel list to be defined, those with +v now but that don't match will be moved to -irc
<MootBot> Please vote on:  +v is given to core channels ops, (in -ops), with a core channel list to be defined, those with +v now but that don't match will be moved to -irc.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Pricey> council please
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Pricey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Pricey. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<jussi01> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from jussi01. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nalioth> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nalioth. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Pricey> Pici?
<Pici> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Pricey> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<Pricey> funky stuff
<Pricey> Anything else or shall we move onto the next one?
<jussi01> Pricey: 1 min
<jussi01> Pricey: I kinda included this under the same subject on the agenda, but I wanted to talk about implementing a simialr system in -irc.
<jussi01> Currently there is an issue with finding operators from the loco channels when a problem arises, and is asked about in #ubuntu-irc. I propose we implement a similar system in #ubuntu-irc, so as operators from the loco channels are easily recognized and able to be found in a simple and timely manner.
<jussi01> maybe make it a new topic?
<elky> sounds sensible
<jussi01> Only thing is, again, how do we define the chans for -irc?
<Pricey> [topic] issue with finding operators from the loco channels when a problem arises
<MootBot> New Topic:  issue with finding operators from the loco channels when a problem arises
<Pricey> Yeah I think that's too complicated and overreaching. You can ask for general help there, there's still /msg chanserv help access
<nalioth> jussi01: [officially supported channel] - [country code] is gonna be the majority membership.  Any channel not falling under the [core *buntu* channels] banner would also fall under -irc
<Pici> I think the main problem is going to be figuring out who has access in the channels that -irc is supposed to be for and having someone maintain that list for +v
<tsimpson> I'm not sure how +v would help when looking for, eg, an -es op
<jussi01> this is true
<nalioth> tsimpson: #ubuntu-es ops might wish to add a highlight for "#ubuntu-es" in -irc
<jussi01> perhaps we should be encouraging that on the wiki also
<tsimpson> nalioth: sure, but them having +v in -irc or not, won't help much
<nalioth> and then the requesting user can be assured (seeing the +v) that it is an operator they're speaking with
<Pici> My concern still stands.
<Pricey> They should be able to find that out from /msg chanserv access
<jussi01> its going to be quite a huge list also.
<jussi01> I think we need something, but maybe +v isnt it. perhaps one to go think on?
<Pici> Unless we have some automated way of maintaning that, I don't want to be the one to have to go through and add/remove access for it.
<tsimpson> looking at an access list doesn't necessarily show all ops, what if an op is using a grouped nick?
<tsimpson> (eg: me)
<Pricey> -irc isn't really used that much anyway, and was created for the loco ops to mingle rather than user queries?
<Pricey> We'll think about that a bit more and get back to it unless anyone has anything to add quickly.
<Pici> Agreed.
<Pricey> [topic] Modes in/proper usage of the #ubuntu-irc-council channel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Modes in/proper usage of the #ubuntu-irc-council channel
<jussi01> The IRCC has a dispute resolution channel called #ubuntu-irc-council. The proposal is that this is a moderated channel, with the IRCC voiced, as well as any relevant parties to the dispute resolution process. If a person needs voice, this will be actioned by a council member. It will be an idle-able channel, with logbots for transparency.
<Pricey> I'm not sure if moderation is needed all the time?
<Pricey> or needed
<Pici> If its +m how do we know who needs voice?
<nalioth> Pici: +z
<elky> they let us know in -ops
<jussi01> or pm
<Pricey> Keep council +v if necessary to distinguish us.
<jussi01> Pricey: that sounds like a good solution to me
<Pricey> Doesn't seem right to stop people speaking to us until we're ready.
<jussi01> Pricey: so your proposal is have is in sleeping state similar to -ops and +m when needed, like described above?
<Pricey> Sure.
<Pricey> If there's someone we don't want part of some procedure, we get rid of them.
<elky> it imght be an idleable channel, but it's not a chatter channel.
<Pricey> idleable?
<nalioth> if it's 'idleable', it's gonna gain chatterboxes
<jussi01> Yes, it needs not have a no idle policy
<Hobbsee> idleable and unmoderated, tha tis
<elky> nalioth, then we're no better off than we are with just -m
<jussi01> we need to have the process transparent and see-able
<elky> it just adds another level of complication and another channel I have to watch
<nalioth> i personally think that it should be idleable but +m
<Pici> No idle unless theres something being discussed.
<tsimpson> -ops is transparent, with the log bot, but we don't allow idlers
<elky> tsimpson, yes, to avoid audience trolling
<Pricey> What are the benefits f +m?
<Pici> Although if someone wants to get in touch with the IRCC, currently they need to go to the mailing list.
<tsimpson> surely if irc-c is idleable, you'll get the same
<nalioth> tsimpson: not if it's +m
<jussi01> Pricey: as elky mentioned, avoid audience trolling.
<tsimpson> or am I being overly paranoid
<elky> Pici, that's so that it's archived in a manner that doesnt involve searching through irc logs, and that frankly sucks badly
<Pricey> jussi01: can we not just +m when necessary?
<nalioth> oh, pricey, did you see that new Aston Martin on High street today?   oops this isn't a chat channel
<Pricey> nalioth: no idle policy means they shouldn't be idling in there anyway
<jussi01> Pricey: the thing is the shouldnt be a no idle policy
<nalioth> we have a 'no idle' channel now
<Pricey> i would like 'drive by' comments
<Hobbsee> if you have an unmoderated channel that's just for irc council people, and the person with the issue, and will silence anyone else from talking, what does that actually gain you from the current situation, where you can silence those who you don't want talking anyway?
<elky> what concerns me is the possibility of trolls idling there for the purpose of making the resolution process hard.
<jussi01> Hobbsee: the point is then there can be  observers, in real time to the process
<Pricey> elky: there's n idle policy, so get rid of them
<Mamarok> sorry :(
<elky> Pricey, i thought #u-irc-c was idleable though
<jussi01> Pricey: but thats the verything thats proposed, to remove the no idle policy
<nalioth> Pricey: #ubuntu-irc-council was supposed to be idleable
<Pricey> oh right k
<Hobbsee> jussi01: but they can be in -ops anyway.  It appears to be so close in function that you gain very little?
<elky> Hobbsee, i agree, it seems like bureaucracy for bureaucracy sake
<Pricey> Yep I'm not sure about it then.
<Hobbsee> it would make sense to have a channel like the original proposal, to mirror the mailing list procedures
<jussi01> ok, if I can re outline the idea. the -irc-council channel is supposed to be for dispute resolution, not just between ops/users, but ops/ops also.
<tsimpson> how would the person with the issue react to having an audience?
<Hobbsee> as in, moderate the lot.  I can see how that hjas gain
<Hobbsee> -j
<tsimpson> as they are likely in a "heated" state to start with
<Hobbsee> tsimpson: the same as if they knew the logs were publically viewable, i expect.
<Hobbsee> tsimpson: if the audience was not able to talk
<elky> Hobbsee, the logs would be publicly viewable
<Hobbsee> elky: precisely
<elky> the logs for -ops are already publicly viewable
<Hobbsee> indeed
<tsimpson> is the council mailing list publicly viewable?
<Pricey> no
<Pricey> or i hope not
<bazhang> ops/ops?
<elky> tsimpson, no, people make confidential accusations
<tsimpson> Pricey: is that used to resolve issues with 3rd parties though?
<jussi01> the idea of the proposal, is to gain a space where the resolution can take place, that has no "audience troll" and is separate from -ops. the need for this separateness is for the person to feel that  they are getting to the right people, and moving up the line.
<Hobbsee> tsimpson: no.  i'd imagine that would be where people would go for a completely private discussion, if they felt so strongly
<tsimpson> if so, then I suspect there would be some who would rather use a "closed" system
<jussi01> The thing is, this need to be a transparent process, hence the proposal of idleable.
<elky> jussi01, that last sentance is why i feel it's bureaucracy for bureaucracy sake. we already have an ircc stop in the line in the form of the mailing list. why do we need two ircc stops?
<Pricey> IS dispute resolution over the council ML not acceptable?
<ikonia> apologies for the tardy arrival, just returned from hostpital
<jussi01> Because the ML is not open, therefore we need to have a open place also
<tsimpson> that's up to the council as far as I'm concerned
<elky> jussi01, we need to have one, or the other. both is just stupid.
<jussi01> Pricey: there is also the fact of real time. sometimes its better to do things in real time, we are the IRC council after all...
<jussi01> elky: no, we need to have both! one open, one confidential.
<Pici> More channels, more more more!
<bazhang> could someone clarify the point of ops/ops
<tsimpson> maybe it should be an option for the person with the issue
<Pici> bazhang: in what context?
<elky> bazhang, where i can take you to scold you for a bad decision.
<nalioth> elky: this is irc.  I'd personally prefer an 'on irc' dispute resolution process
<bazhang> elky, rather than PM? seems excessive
<elky> nalioth, and i prefer an independant dispute resolution step. one where we are not "supreme rulers"
<Mamarok> nalioth: +1, as it is about IRC, so the resolution should take place here too
<elky> bazhang, yes, well apparently people need to see us fighting. or something.
<nalioth> elky: who said anything about "supreme rulers"?  think of it as "supreme court"
<bazhang> Pici, what jussi01 said above about user/ops and ops/ops resolution
<jussi01> bazhang: if it cant be resoved in pm, then it escalates...
<Pici> bazhang: I realize that now, thanks ;)
<elky> nalioth, i'm talking about a resolution process where we cannot ban them from, as such.
<nalioth> elky: i would assume -irc-council would not be used unless dispute resolution failed at a lower level
<jussi01> bazhang: We have that mandate on our wiki page
<elky> nalioth, i'm talking about the people who refuse to talk to us on our turf because they're convinced by our lack of public fighting that we're going to bully them
<Hobbsee> elky: that makes sense
<bazhang> jussi01, I tend to stay shushed when shushed :)
<Pici> elky: They should look at the -meeting logs then ;)
<elky> Pici, if only.
<jussi01> ok, back to the subjuect on hand.
<elky> i just think that channel to ops to ircc to ircc to ircc to cc is obfuscation by red tape.
<Mamarok> that seems like a lot of steps
<elky> and no matter how much you dont want people to treat the ML and the irc channel seperately, they *will*
<jussi01> Imho, we need to have a channel for ircc operations where people can come talk to the ircc be it about dispute resolution or other ircc matters. how are we going to implement that? same as we have now?
<Mamarok> irccc aka irc council court?
<Mamarok> I don't like the court part though
<Mamarok> or m like mediation
<Pici> Maybe we should come back to this at a later date, as we're brainstorming here.
<elky> yes, and people are up at wee hours.
<Pricey> [topic] Removal of inactive operators from channel lists controlled by the IRC council
<MootBot> New Topic:  Removal of inactive operators from channel lists controlled by the IRC council
<jussi01> Lately we have noticed we have large operator lists but have operators that have not been active on IRC for long periods. The idea is that if an operator has not been active in the said channel for a long period of time that he/she will be removed from the list.
<Mamarok> goode idea
<Pricey> Mamarok: why?
<Mamarok> as they never show up anyway when called
<elky> it also makes it more possible for people to find real active ops when they /cs access #channel list
<jussi01> +1 to both of those
<Pricey> I suggested this a long while ago and it didn't go well. iirc there were arguments such as "if they were useful then, they should be able to rejoin with little disruption, they should still be trusted" etc.
<Pricey> Do we keep developers on there etc. ?
<Mamarok> well, they can be added easily if they come back and are willing to join in again
<Pricey> Mamarok: Nope, they think their not wanted anymore, annoyed, they don't come back.
<Mamarok> as those people are already known, aren't they?
<Hobbsee> oh dear, this topic
<Pricey> I think this would be best handled on a case by case basis, and any suggested changes suggested individually.
<elky> how about we *gasp* contact them. and ask.
<Pricey> That's also a very good idea
<Pici> elky: I was *just* typing that
<Hobbsee> elky: gasp!  surely not!
<elky> Hobbsee, communication? the audacity
<Hobbsee> indeed
<Pricey> That's not what we're about though!
<tsimpson> the access lists are a bit off a mess, those who have left the irc-ops team should not still have access IMHO
<Hobbsee> personally, i've found it useful to be able to keep ops everywhere even though i haven't been active in most channels for a while - means cross channel trolls can be booted out in most of their channels.
<elky> we can always put people back on if they become useful
<Hobbsee> so avoiding losing that would be good
<elky> if people on a list have not been into a channel in the past two years, then, well...
<Hobbsee> (for everyone, not just for me
<Hobbsee> )
<Pricey> Sounds good. So someone interested can look through a list and decide what should be changed, then the council will contact those involved?
<Mamarok> Hobbsee: for me it doesn't make sens to be ops in #u for example, as I never join there
<jussi01> Hobbsee: yes, but you are actually in those chans,even if you dont say anything
<Mamarok> sense*
<Hobbsee> Mamarok: however, you will if you get !ops calls in -ops for there, and no one else is around, surely?
<Hobbsee> jussi01: er, some of them, anyway ;)
<bazhang> Hobbsee, depends; I am on #ubuntu-offtopic list but have no access there
<Hobbsee> bazhang: that sounds like a bug
<Mamarok> Hobbsee: well, I didn't even know I was supposed to :) do I have ops rights there too or only in #k?
<Pricey> bazhang: /msg chanserv list?
<Hobbsee> i sympathise with the idea of culling down the lists, but to remove ops from people active on irc, even if not in that particular channel, can be problematic
<jussi01> Pricey: he means on the ops call list from ubottu i think
<bazhang> Pricey, sorry? I definitely dont have access there
<Pricey> I can imagine some people would not want to be contact people for #ubuntu
<Hobbsee> Mamarok: not sure, i've not looked it up
<Pricey> and i think that's the argument i've seen so far
<elky> Hobbsee, we're talking about removing the ones that are not useful, not 'every slightly inactive op'
<Hobbsee> elky: ok, good
<Mamarok> jussi01: can you answer my question?
<Pricey> Mamarok: /msg nickserv listchans
<Hobbsee> elky: wasn't sure if that was per channel, or over freenode - the original proposal wasn't clear.  Now that it is :)
<elky> Hobbsee, i'm pretty sure 'over freenode' is not within our scope.
<ikonia> would it not be a good start to clear up the !ops factoids in each channel, then filter down from there ?
<Hobbsee> elky: er, over freenode in ubuntu channels
<Hobbsee> was what i meant (but not what i said, alas)
<elky> Hobbsee, it's just housecleaning on a per-case basis. hoarding is silly.
<Hobbsee> right :)
<Pricey> So to sum up, someone will look at an access list and suggest changes to the council. If we agree, we'll attempt to contact that person before any changes.
<Pricey> Moving on if nothing else on this?
<Pricey> [agreed] So to sum up, someone will look at an access list and suggest changes to the council. If we agree, we'll attempt to contact that person  before any changes.
<MootBot> AGREED received:  So to sum up, someone will look at an access list and suggest changes to the council. If we agree, we'll attempt to contact that person  before any changes.
<Mamarok> Pricey: and that someone would be?
 * Pricey learnt a new button
<jussi01> Mamarok: you :P
<Pricey> Mamarok: i'm sure we'll have volunteers, ops or cuncil.
<Pricey> council too
<tsimpson> whoever looks at the list at any given time
<Pricey> Mamarok: doesn't matter who it is though, council will enact it
<Mamarok> I can for #k and #k-ot
<Pricey> [topic]
<MootBot> New Topic:
<Pici> We're not going to disregard it if its someone we didn't ask
<Pricey> [topic] #ubuntu proxy policy. Specifically, LjL plans to remove the +e feature of his FloodBots in support of mibbit.
<MootBot> New Topic:  #ubuntu proxy policy. Specifically, LjL plans to remove the +e feature of his FloodBots in support of mibbit.
<Mamarok> :)
<Pici> This topic...
<Pricey> I assume LjL isn't able to attend so I'm happy to start this off.
<Pici> Hes not online now so.... go ahead
<Pricey> I would like us to make policy. I don't want us to allow the Floodbots to make policy for us.
<elky> agreed
<Pricey> Currently, we ban all web/gateway from #ubuntu and allow freenode's webchat in using the floodbots.
<tsimpson> on this, for what it's worth. I added the webchat support to the bots. first, I was working with the bots for #k, so had familiarised myself with them. I *added* webchat to the (currently 3) gateways the bots look for, mibbit was never removed
<tsimpson> I added webchat because mibbit was no longer available for users and they were advised to use webchat
<Pici> tsimpson: And we never condicered making a policy change for gateways at that time.
<tsimpson> there was a 1 line edit, which I thought LjL would not have issue with, he was not around to check with at the time
<Pricey> Do we still want web/gateway blanket banned?
<Pricey> (forwarded to -proxy-users rather)
<tsimpson> (though I admit, I should have checked with LjL)
<elky> help me understand this correctly... LjL is wanting to use the floodbots to protest the mibbit banning?
<Pricey> elky: tsimpson: Pici: Please can we decide what we want first.
<Pici> elky: Unfortunately, yes.
<elky> Pricey, i'm not making decisions until i know the whole situation.
<Pici> ditto.
<Pricey> 00:31:29 < LjL> I intended to remove gateway-exemption support from the floodbots. This is because, while that feature initially applied  to Mibbit, Freenode  unilaterally stopped Mibbit from accessing the network, and concomitantly created its own web gateway.
<Pricey> 00:31:34 < LjL> I consider this an unexplained abuse of a privileged position, and I do not think we should support it by explicitly  supporting their  gateway in #ubuntu by means of the bots.
<Pricey> 00:31:39 < LjL> I am not concerned about whether this should result in all gateways being disallowed, or all gateways being unbanned and  allowed without any  restrictions.
<jussi01> So LjL has an issue ith freenode and takes it out on us, because we adapt to freenodes policy?
<elky> i'm not comfortable with our channels being used as pawns in a protest.
<Pricey> 00:35:13 <+Pricey> LjL: and to clarify. Is this 'intention' going to happen, whatever we decide about our policy?
<Pricey> 00:35:33 < LjL> Pricey: yes
<Pricey> < LjL> Pricey: unless of course you convince me i shouldn't
<nalioth> well, since ljl isn't here . . .
<tsimpson> there is, as far as I can see, no technical reason to remove webchat support from the floodbot's. so it's purely a politically motivated reason
<Pricey> Agreed. And I do not want a statement from 'Ubuntu' being made like this.
<Pici> And theres no freenode supported way of banning people from a channel and also banning them from using gateways all in one shot.
<elky> i am really not comfortable with being put into a position where ubuntu irc users being messed around by a single person to protest a freenode decision
<Mamarok> isn't the basic problem that the floodbots are not open source?
<elky> Mamarok, yes.
<jussi01> Mamarok: pretty much.
<Mamarok> which to me seems doesn't give us much choice
<ikonia> would it be possible to approach LJL to buy the bots ?
<Pricey> buy?!
<jussi01> How complex are the flood bots? do we have resources/expertise to write our own?
<Mamarok> ikonia: how?
<Pici> ikonia: Using our canonical funds, great idea
<Flannel> Mamarok: Money is usually how that's done ;)
<Pici> /sarcasm
<ikonia> Mamarok: ask him if he'd consider selling them as a comercial product
<ikonia> Pici: depending on the price it may be achievable from other methods
<Pricey> I would rather remove them than pay for them.
<ikonia> Pici: in my view it's worth asking
<ikonia> Pricey: they add a valuable function, asking a price is not unreasonable, I suspect the price will be, but asking should not a problem
<Mamarok> we might also explore how difficult it is to write or have our own bots written, as an open source app
<elky> ikonia, and given he's using the power they give him to make our namespace say something we dont particuarlly agree with, i'm doubting he'd take it.
<Flannel> He's objecting to this for political reasons, money likely won't be worth anything
<ikonia> elky: I agree, however asking, ticking the box as "not an option" and binning it should be done
<tsimpson> we could create our own, but I feel like we're being extorted
<elky> tsimpson, we are being extorted.
<joaopinto> what is so special about those floodbots that devers to be paid unlike some hundred open source flood protection bot scripts  ?
<Pricey> Not that you're aware of the situation, can we go back to the start and decide what we want?
<ikonia> elky: depending on the price I would use my company to sponsor it - thus problem solved, keep it closed source and just allow the trusted people to modify as required
<ikonia> it could be a quick short / sharp resolution
<Mamarok> the problem is that we depend on his grace to be able to use the floodbots, not only in this istuation but in all other upcoming situations too
<Pricey> ikonia: I would not like that.
<ikonia> fair enough
<Mamarok> situation*
<elky> Mamarok, it's an entirely hypocritical situation.
<Pricey> ikonia: I'm only one member of the council, but I am very against approaching LjL to buy them.
<Pici> I've never been happy that the floodbots were not open source, and I dont like the idea of keeping them that way forever by paying for them.
<ikonia> Mamarok: that was why I suggested purchasing them and taking control
<Mamarok> so we really should have our own bots eg. open source ones
<ikonia> Pici: no problem then,
<Pricey> 08:33:25 < Pricey> I would like us to make policy. I don't want us to allow the Floodbots to make policy for us.
<nalioth> the floodbots theotetically could be made open source at a new revision
<Mamarok> ikonia: that will not solve the problem, he will not sell them because he uses it for political statements
<tsimpson> it seems we will have 3 options, 1) accept LjL's rule over the bots and go with it, 2) accept LjL's rule over the bots an remove the ban on gateways, 3) reject the bots and make our own
<Pricey> Can we please go back to the start and decide what we want with proxy users, moving on to what we want the floodbots to do, rather than the other way around?
<elky> Pricey, and you're letting us have our say on 'whether the floodbots will dictate policy'
<elky> and i think it's pretty comprehensively 'no, floodbots will not dictate us'
<Pricey> tsimpson: 4) keep the ban on gateways
<Pricey> tsimpson: 4) keep the ban on gateways, exempting others as a whole
<tsimpson> yes, that's an option too
<Pricey> elky: But we're still talking about what to do about the floodbots.
<nalioth> we originally banned gatteways because there was no way to ban users from them
<Pici> nalioth: Has that changed?
<elky> Pricey, you cannot entirely seperate the issues.
<Pricey> elky: not forever
<elky> Pricey, the policy should always be "allow proxies that are deemed acceptably safe"
<Pricey> Pici: 'most' add identifiable information to users
<nalioth> we can open up for gateways that pass the user's IP address as a hex, and continue banning non-hex-passing gateways
<Pricey> elky: I would definitely like to move to that.
<Flannel> Pici: You can ban some of them by realname (which some gateways set to their IP) but that doesn't prevent them from coming back in the channel without the gateway (and vice versa)
<Pricey> well i say 'most', that's got no backing
<Pricey> Flannel: sure, its a little more work, unless someone makes something that detects ident bans and bans a matching hostname one.
<Pici> Pricey: Like a floodbot? Great idea.
<Flannel> Pricey: Floodbots do... yeah.
<Pricey> :)
<Pici> So....
<tsimpson> are we reaching a consensus on which option to take? (I'm siding with 3 or 4)
<tsimpson> 4 would be easier to begin with
<Mamarok> proposition: we keep the floodbots for now and hurry to get our own ones
<Mamarok> to solve this matter once and for all
<Pricey> Mamarok: ljl seems in a hurry to change unless we convince him otherwise.
<Pricey> I don't think we have any further arguments than the ones put to him in -ops
<Mamarok> and how would we convince them?
<Hobbsee> Mamarok: that's the only sustainable solution, really
<tsimpson> I don't like that they/the author has leverage over our policy, so I would like to see them gone
<Hobbsee> if you guys want complete control
<Mamarok> either way it will add more work to all of us
<Mamarok> at least for some time
<popey> Would it be prudent to announce somewhere public that the irc council is looking for bot developers to help them?
<tsimpson> Mamarok: we don't have much choice here
<Pricey> [vote] Remove reliance on current floodbots. Add exempts to trustable gateways/remove gateway ban and ban individual problem gateways.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Remove reliance on current floodbots. Add exempts to trustable gateways/remove gateway ban and ban individual problem gateways..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<popey> rather than keep the issue under wraps and have the workload entirely within the irc ops?
<Mamarok> tsimpson: that's why it is urgent to have our own bots
<elky> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from elky. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Pricey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Pricey. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Pricey> I don't think its urgent.
<tsimpson> Mamarok: they can come later
<nalioth> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nalioth. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Mamarok> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Mamarok. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Pricey> bah :)
<Pricey> Mamarok: council please
<elky> it's not urgent, but people who rely on the proxy will be rather inconvenienced
<Mamarok> oops :)
<jussi01> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from jussi01. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<bazhang> heh
<Pricey> Pici: Please vote on:  Remove reliance on current floodbots. Add exempts to trustable gateways/remove gateway ban and ban individual problem  gateways..
<Pici> My dungeon collapsed :(
<Pici> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from Pici. 4 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Flannel> (really 2)
<bazhang> yep
<Pricey> #endvote
<jussi01> I count Pricey, nalioth and elky all +1...
<Pricey> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 3
<Pricey> That means 3 for, 1 against, one abstaining. Carried?
<elky> 3 is carried afaik
<jussi01> sounds correct to me.
<tsimpson> the same is true for the bots in #k I assume?
<Pricey> They are hte same bots.
<tsimpson> so yes
<jussi01> ok, so is that it?
<Pici> Thats it/
<Flannel> er, should we officially decide thta we want new bots?
<Flannel> s/that/if/ even
<Pricey> Flannel: If someone has a proposal of new code to bring to us, that's good.
<nalioth> Flannel: it's covered under "remove reliance on curent floodbots"
<popey> Pricey: as I asked earlier..
<jussi01> Pricey: you want to end the meeting then?
<Pricey> Flannel: Until that point, we'll get along.
<tsimpson> I think that if someone makes useful bots, the council with then decide on the use
<popey> 09:52:38 < popey> Would it be prudent to announce somewhere public that the irc council is looking for bot developers to help them?
<Flannel> nalioth: Not necessarily.  That previous vote was to change (remove) blanket ban
<Flannel> Pricey: right, but it'd be nice to officially state that we're looking for a new bot
<Mamarok> provided the bot is open source, else we will face the same problem one day again
<nalioth> Flannel: i'm sorry, but the vote was for TWO items, one of which was for the ban removal
<Pricey> We didn't agree we want to replace the floodbots, just to remove our reliance on them.
<tsimpson> open source, or explicitly owned by the IRCC
<tsimpson> but that's another issue I guess
<jussi01> Lads and ladies, I have things to do, if there is no more that cant wait till next time...
<Pricey> We should respond to LjL also.
<Pici> I'd like to get some more sleep as well, so if theres nothing else I bid farewell for a few hours.
<elky> Pricey, we should. i think said reply should echo the sentiments expressed here today.
<elky> cya pici
<Pici> if reply by mail, please CC the IRCC
<Mamarok> sleep well, Pici
<Pici> goodnight/morning/whatever
<bazhang> bye
<Mamarok> have a nice day/night all
<tsimpson> Pricey: remember to end the meeting (MootBot)
<Pricey> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 04:05.
<Pricey> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-08-09
<c7p> Hello all if there are any ubuntu manual members here join us in #ubuntu-manual
<dutchie> ubuntu manual meeting in #ubuntu-manual
<mdeslaur> kees, sbeattie, jdstrand: meeting?
<jdstrand> ah right
<jdstrand> o/
 * sbeattie waves
<jdstrand> let's give kees a few minutes-- he is out of town and may not be able to attend
 * kees can't, listening to spender
<jdstrand> there we go
<jdstrand> kees: would you prefer to reschedule or go ahead?
<kees> go ahead, my week consists of linuxcon, and I'll try to publish openjdk-6 asap
<jdstrand> kees: cool thanks. have fun :)
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: do you know off-hand the ircbot goo to lead this meeting
<jdstrand> ?
 * jdstrand can never remember
<jdstrand> though, i can find it
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: yeah, hold on
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: cool, thanks
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:08. The chair is mdeslaur.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jdstrand> nice
<jdstrand> from kees:
<jdstrand> 12:05 < jdstrand> kees: would you prefer to reschedule or go ahead?
<jdstrand> 12:07 < kees> go ahead, my week consists of linuxcon, and I'll try to publish  openjdk-6 asap
<jdstrand> shall I go?
<mdeslaur> sure
<jdstrand> ok. I hope to push out koffice for jaunty. as discussed I am just disabling pdf import
<jdstrand> karmic did it already
<jdstrand> the embedded xpdf is ancient, not supported by xpdf people or upstream KDE
<jdstrand> I plan to do the libvirt merge, which will both check something of my blueprints as well as do a security update for it
<jdstrand> (yeah for win/win)
<jdstrand> I'll push that to maverick with my migration bits, and see how that goes while I finish karmic and earlier (lucid is mostly done)
<jdstrand> oh, and I am on community this week
<jdstrand> that's it from me. sbeattie-- you're up
<sbeattie> I've been working on w3m and openldap updates and in the process working out the kinks in my build setup environment.
<sbeattie> hoping to push those out today.
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: sweet
<sbeattie> w3m is ready to go; need to finish writing the openldap advisory
<jdstrand> sbeattie: nice. if those kinks are a result of poor documentation in the wiki, please feel free to update the wiki
<jdstrand> sbeattie: feel free to ask me or mdeslaur for anything you need regarding the publication
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: please close bug #610561 once it's published
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 610561 in openldap (Ubuntu) "OpenLDAP Security Fixes?" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/610561
<sbeattie> jdstrand: I've made some minor code fixes that I've pushed
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: will do.
<jdstrand> awesome thanks
<jdstrand> if appropriate, feel free to add an LP: #.... reference to the changelog
<jdstrand> if the packages are ready and just need to be tested, don't worry about it
<sbeattie> jdstrand: packages already built, am halfway testing the security ppa built packages.
<sbeattie> halfway through, that is.
<jdstrand> sounds fine
<sbeattie> that's it for me.
<jdstrand> oh heh, I just caught why you corrected yourself :)
 * sbeattie grins
<sbeattie> mdeslaur, you're up.
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> I need to write my trip report, and will pick something to fix in the CVE list
<mdeslaur> also, I will test my http/openssl packages and will probably push them to -proposed this week
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<jdstrand> oooohh
<jdstrand> nifty
<jdstrand> (also a blueprint/update win/win :)
<mdeslaur> hehe
<mdeslaur> we done? does anything have anything for the security team?
<mdeslaur> d'uh
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have any questions for the security team?
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:21.
<mdeslaur> that's it!
<jdstrand> \o/
<jdstrand> thanks mdeslaur! :)
<sbeattie> thanks!
 * sbeattie hopes kees and jjohansen have fum at the linux security summit.
<sbeattie> fun, even. Mondays.
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-08-10
<huats> morning
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> Morning all
<mpoirier> o/
 * NCommander pokes ogra, and dyfet, rsalveti
<dyfet> yawn
<NCommander> (seems a bunch of people aren't online this morning
 * rsalveti waves
 * ogra falls over
<NCommander> GrueMaster said he'd be back in a moment
<GrueMaster> yep
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to unbreak apport retracer (c/o)
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to unbreak apport retracer (c/o)
<ogra> where is the wiki link ??
<NCommander> Still c/o. I need to rebuild it
<NCommander> Oops
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100810
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2010/20100810
 * NCommander is still not awake
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to re-enable the lucid efl session (c/o)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to re-enable the lucid efl session (c/o)
<ogra> done
 * rsalveti needs caffeine
<ogra> still needs adjustment and given the uninstallability we have atm i cant make these
<NCommander> ogra: so c/o or?
<ogra> no, its done
<ogra> the package is in and is installed by default
<ogra> just needs adjustments
<NCommander> ah
<NCommander> [topic] mpoirer to coordinate with sarkoman or TI internal sources to get branch with "factory" bootloader source (c/o - hold)
<MootBot> New Topic:  mpoirer to coordinate with sarkoman or TI internal sources to get branch with "factory" bootloader source (c/o - hold)
<mpoirier> That was abandoned
<mpoirier> the tree was located but impossible to reproduce factory image.
<NCommander> oh,oops
<mpoirier> despite, the rogue patch was identify.  Kernel team is not convinced the best way to address the problem is to revert patch.  Further discussion will take place today.
<ogra> strike it theb
<ogra> *then
<NCommander> k
<NCommander> [topic] cooloney to work with robclark and sebjan to merge HDMI patches (c/o)
<MootBot> New Topic:  cooloney to work with robclark and sebjan to merge HDMI patches (c/o)
<ogra> mpoirier, for which bug was that originally btw ?
<ogra> the MMC issues ?
 * ogra forgot 
<mpoirier> /bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/591941 - yes, mmc
<ogra> great, k, seems we have other patches that just got into linux-omap at least
<rsalveti> mpoirier: were you able to get in contact with the  patch owner? maybe he can help you on this
<mpoirier> Nope, didn't contact anyone yet.
<mpoirier> we still have to see how we'll proceed.
<ogra> NCommander, sebjan is on vacation this week and ndec is working on the tree merge, i dont think we need the tiem for cooloney anymore, robs patches will be in the next TI tree
<ogra> s/tiem/item/
<rsalveti> yep, I'm testing a couple of patches from rob
<rsalveti> still not fully working with hdmi and dvi yet
<ogra> as long as you dont break my working monitor :P
<rsalveti> there's one patch that breaks the screen for hdmi, rob said he's going to work on this during this week
<rsalveti> currently I'm using some patches that will be inside the latest TI release plus some more rob's patches
<rsalveti> the question is, are we expecting to merge any other kernel patch until we get the official release from TI?
<ogra> i dont think so
<ogra> afaik the next merge will be the .35 kernel
<rsalveti> ogra: but the other problem is that we still don't know when we're going to get it :-)
<ogra> this week, ask ndec
<ogra> or cooloney
<rsalveti> the patches will be inside the new release, so the only problem is that in the future we should look at the release carefully to skip those patches
<rsalveti> but, cooloney or lag can say more about it
<rsalveti> I'm afraid of getting this patch into our tree just by the end of the month
<rsalveti> and until we get it, at least the LG monitors will be broken :-)
<NCommander> can I move on?
<rsalveti> NCommander: sure
<NCommander> [topic] standing items
<MootBot> New Topic:  standing items
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-maverick-alpha-3.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<ogra> NCommander, wrong chart :P
<ogra> oh, heh
<ogra> you already corrected yourself
<NCommander> ogra: figure I should post both since we just concluded A3 and started beta
<ogra> right, everyone who still has A3 items open, please move them to beta in the spec pages
<ogra> dyfet, ^^^
<dyfet> ok
<ogra> do we know when persia will be done moving ?
<ogra> NCommander, any idea ?
<NCommander> ogra: he's done moving.
<NCommander> I honestly don't know why he's not here, he was supposed to have internet restored yesterday
<ogra> he has a lot of items for beta
<NCommander> ogra: I'll call him after I call davidm later today
<ogra> well, three of ten :)
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier, lag)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier, lag)
 * NCommander should add ericm to that
<ogra> NCommander, do you have any testplan for the "test unsupported hardware" item ?
<ogra> i.e. something you can give to GrueMaster
<ogra> (i know the upgrade tests failed miserably)
<mpoirier> /bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/591941: mmc -110 error - Rogue patch was identify.  Kernel team is not convinced the best way to address the problem is to revert patch.  Further discussion will take place today.
<mpoirier> /bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/608266: no more /dev/mtdblock - the driver is compiled in but the base address is not properly set.  Init of mtd device changed between Lucid and Maverick.  Base address seem to have been left out.
<mpoirier> ...
<ogra> mpoirier, there were new patches added today
<NCommander> ogra: using a Dove AVD1 board mostly. The flash-kernel changes work properly at this point if you trick the installer to install -dove kernel
<NCommander> ogra: I'm just working on the installer bits now
<ogra> mpoirier, weird, i thought the base address needs to come from userspace tools
<mpoirier> no, not for the initial scan.
<ogra> ah, k
<ogra> lag, anything to add to the above ?
<NCommander> I'm guessingnot
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Alpha 3 testing was rather rushed.
<ogra> omap4 was really good though
<ogra> i stopwatched the resizing today ;)
<GrueMaster> Last minute churn in the pool cause the images to be delayed until Wednesday.
<ogra> 2:30 for the whole resizing from plugging in power to seeing the oem-config wallpaper
<GrueMaster> Most of the image testing was done on omap4 as it was faster, and both images are the same but for the kernel & boot loader bits.
<ogra> right, and we have the MMC errors in omap3
<ogra> which kind of block the whol installation
<lag> Sorry
<lag>  * Marvel (mvl-dove)
<lag>    * Nothing new this week
<lag>  * Freescale (fsl-imx51)
<lag>    * MISC     : Prepared a kernel package for Freescale to verify fix for the board bricking issue
<lag>  * Texas Instruments (ti-omap)
<lag>    * GIT PULL : ti-omap4 branch is now at 903.7 which contains latest 2.6.34 TI kernel release.
<lag>    * ON GOING : B591941 found issue using bisect. In discussions to decide on a solution
<lag>    * PATCH    : B592295 this should have been fixed in the latest TI release
<lag>    * PATCH    : B605832 as above
<lag>    * PATCH    : B612895 as above
<lag>    * ON GOING : B605488 no one has seen this since it was reported
<lag> ..
<lag> Was practising my presentation for UHS *embarrassed smiley*
<lag> ..
<ogra> UHS ?
<ogra> ubuntu hardware shop ?
<lag> Summit
<ogra> ah
<GrueMaster> Are we done with kernel updates?
<lag> Yep
<ogra> other QA topics ?
<GrueMaster> Current images fail to run oem-config.  Churn in the X drivers is holdig back image builds today.
<ogra> i still dont get why oem-config fails though
<ogra> it seems to detect an already running X server
<ogra> and then X refuses to start
<GrueMaster> Updates from A3 to current now make Unity run as default on Beagle.  Performance REAL slow now.
<ogra> additionally we seem to have an issue with console switching, the X session stays up even though oem-config died
<ogra> you need to hit enter to actually see the console thats already up on that tty
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: probably will be better with the sgx driver
<rsalveti> but still no support for it
<ogra> rsalveti, we wont have the SGX driver in our images
<rsalveti> ogra: I know, but won't we have the option to install it later on?
<rsalveti> last step on oem-config, for example?
<NCommander> rsalveti: bit hard to install it without X in the first place
<GrueMaster> Issue I reported at Sprint about Unity and bleed through was clearly visible on beagle.
 * rsalveti heard something like that
<ogra> GrueMaster, file a bug for the upgrade issue please, seems didrocks enforces unity somehow in his settings package
<ogra> NCommander, we have X and should provide the 2D session by default
<rsalveti> yep
<ogra> the breakage is that unity enforces the switch during an upgrade
<GrueMaster> ok
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<NCommander> Nothing new to report expect I need to fix KDE sometime soon.
 * NCommander is finally done travelling constantly thus might have a chance to do so
 * ogra sees a ton of new packages
<dyfet> and I will have a patch for mutter
<Riddell> KDE SC 4.5 just got uploaded last night
<ogra> NCommander, are you on top of the dh-shlibs thing ?
<Riddell> only kdebindings is broken on ARM, everything else is fine I think
<ogra> NCommander, still blocks libgd2
<NCommander> ogra: no.
<NCommander> ogra: *sigh*, I'll get right on that.
<ogra> NCommander, thanks
<dyfet> I had a temporary patch for libgd2 itself
<ogra> NCommander, i think there is a libc fix in debian we just need to pull
<ogra> dyfet, that makes it not use libc ?
<NCommander> ogra: I talked to doko about that awhile ago, he wasn't sure what the cause is
<NCommander> I'm not inclined to spend a lot of time trying to properly fix it for maverick TBH
<dyfet> yes, but i wanted to see what happens with the other changes
<ogra> NCommander, well, worst case just pull the old fix back into dh-shlibs
<NCommander> ogra: that was the plan
<ogra> it worked for two reelases already ...
<ogra> i dont see a reason to not use the same until upstream is actually fixed
 * ogra sees clutk on the ftbfs list
<ogra> thats critical for TI work, please priorize
<NCommander> sure, no problem
<ogra> dyfet, how about telepathy-glib ?
<ogra> you said last wee you wanted to take a look
<dyfet> yes this was a dbus test failure
<ogra> any fix in sight ?
<ogra> did you talk to seb128 ?
<dyfet> yes, but mostly what I had tested in it looks too ugly for a fix yet
<NCommander> can I move on?
<ogra> NCommander, move ?
<ogra> hsnap
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<NCommander> They exist :-)
<ogra> weel, mostly covered above already :)
<ogra> they built until the X team broke them ...
<NCommander> Dove images are buildable, but still in manual mode
<ogra> and the last build has oem-config issues
<ogra> nothing to see here, move on :)
<NCommander> [topic] Any Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
 * NCommander has none
 * ogra neither
<NCommander> ok
<NCommander> I'm going to close the meeting unless anyone objects
<NCommander> 5
<NCommander> 4
<NCommander> 3
<NCommander> 2
<NCommander> 1
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:47.
<ogra> booo
<NCommander> ogra: :-P
<ogra> :)
<pitti> kees, Keybuk, cjwatson: meeting in 5?
<pitti> is "chair: Keybuk" still correct on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda ?
<pitti> (we skipped the previous meeting, so the date is obviously wrong)
<Keybuk> pitti: I'm at Linuxcon, hard to chair from here
<pitti> ok, can do today
<Keybuk> I'll take the next one though, since the big item in that meeting will be mine
<pitti> Keybuk: ok, I'll put you down as chair in two weeks then
 * pitti pung sabdfl
<pitti> mdz: will you join the TB meeting?
<Keybuk> not sure where he is; he's either here, or in Lexington
<pitti> SMSed mdz, cjwatson, and kees
<pitti> Keybuk: did you follow the post app release process discussion on the ML?
<Keybuk> pitti: I haven't had working e-mail for over a week
<Keybuk> by this point, mailman has almost certainly unsubscribed me from the ML
<pitti> Keybuk: we got votes from sabdfl, cjwatson, kees, and me, but your's is still msssing
<pitti> Keybuk: oh, this was July 23
<Keybuk> I don't remember seeing it, sorry
<pitti> np
<pitti> Keybuk: do you have something to discuss for the meeting?
<pitti> if nobody else turns up, I'll ask the "kill sparc/ia64" topic on the ML
 * ScottK thought it was just kill sparc this cycle?
<Keybuk> pitti: that's the big topic for the next meeting
<Keybuk> we said we'd give until feature freeze
<pitti> there was an announcement/question some weeks ago, and I thought it included both
<Keybuk> it's _not_quite_ feature freeze yet
<pitti> Keybuk: ah, understood
<pitti> Keybuk: so, I'll just leave it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda then
<Keybuk> it does include both
<Keybuk> both ia64 and sparc will be dropped after thursday
<Keybuk> we'll do that formally at the next meeting I think
<Keybuk> or maybe just in the ML in the meantime
<sabdfl> hello all, sorry i'm late
<Keybuk> pitti: yes please
<pitti> hey Mark
<sabdfl> howdy
<pitti> still no quorum yet
<pitti> I pinged/SMSed cjwatson/mdz/kees 8 mins ago, let's see whether someone else turns up
<pitti> sabdfl: do you have anything to discuss?
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda is the current topic list; ports already got moved to next meeting
<sabdfl> nothing from me to add to the agenda
<pitti> ok, timing out I'd say; we don't have quorum, and the two topics are from absent members
<pitti> next meeting on 2010-08-24, Keybuk agreed to chair
<kees> timezone failure. I'm at LinuxCon (I think mdz is here too), but there are sessions running
<sabdfl> ok, cheers all, hope you are all well
<manjo> \o
<lag> o/
<lag> manjo: Dude!
<cking_> \o
<manjo> lag, dude
<lag> "My eyes dude!"
<manjo> heh
<kamal> o/
<lag> ;)
<JFo> o/
<smb> \o
<manjo> lag, currently its my throat... lost my voice
<JFo> dood
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<lag> JFo: :D
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<JFo> :)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (lag)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (lag)
<lag>  * Marvel (mvl-dove)
<lag>    * Nothing new this week
<lag>  * Freescale (fsl-imx51)
<lag>    * MISC     : Prepared a kernel package for Freescale to verify
<lag>  * Texas Instruments (ti-omap)
<lag>    * GIT PULL : ti-omap4 branch is now at 903.7 which contains latest 2.6.34 TI kernel release.
<lag>    * ON GOING : B591941 found issue using bisect. In discussions to decide on a solution
<lag>    * PATCH    : B592295 this should have been fixed in the latest TI release
<lag>    * PATCH    : B605832 as above
<lag>    * PATCH    : B612895 as above
<lag>    * ON GOING : B605488 no one has seen this since it was reported
<lag> ..
<tgardner> lag, any feedback on the freescale board killer?
<lag> tgardner: * MISC     : Prepared a kernel package for Freescale to verify
<tgardner> lag, so, no feedback then?
<lag> tgardner: I was told off for mentioning it in the ARM status meeting earlier today so I took it off the end of the disc
<lag> tgardner: Not that I know of, no
<tgardner> lag, ack
<tgardner> ..
<lag> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics: (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics: (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (3 bugs, 9 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Beta Milestoned Bugs (35 across all packages (up 14)) ====
<JFo>  * 2 linux kernel bugs (up 1)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (down 1)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (121 across all packages (down 8)) ====
<JFo>  * 25 linux kernel bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (down 2)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 2 linux-mvl-dove bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 2 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (down 1)
<JFo> === Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 14 blueprints
<JFo> *** NOTE: This listing includes HWE Blueprints***
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:126 (down 2) ====
<JFo>  * https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on
<JFo>  * Breakdown by status:
<JFo>    http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-apparmor (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-apparmor
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-apparmor (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-apparmor
<bjf> Bug 615947 - Fixed and updated regression test suites.  Will get a patch
<bjf> out to kernel list tonight.
<bjf> User side updates to log parsing should be commited today or tomorrow.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 615947 in linux (Ubuntu) "AppArmor: kernel module fails to handle namespace removal correctly" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/615947
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts (tgardner)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts (tgardner)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-new-kernel-on-lts
<tgardner> LTS backports are tracking Maverick at 2.6.35-14.20
<tgardner> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel (jjohansen)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel (jjohansen)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel
<bjf> Bug #612875 virtual kernel in EC2 only boots from pv-grub.  This is
<bjf> going to require user image creation work on packaging up an aki.
<bjf> Basically we need to strip the bzImage header off leaving only the
<bjf> gzipped vmlinux.  This is low priority and probably won't be done.
<bjf> Bug # 574910 High load averages on Lucid while idling.  This is in
<bjf> the Xen patchset, and I have a new kernel being built to test later today.
<bjf> I have 4 bugs that I haven't really gotten a chance to look at yet,
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 612875 in linux (Ubuntu) "-virtual kernel in EC2 only boots from pv-grub " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/612875
<bjf> and anyone who wants is more than welcome to them.
<bjf> Bug #606373 cloud-init output does not get to console when booted with and
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 606373 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "cloud-init output does not get to console when booted with pv-grub and ramdisk" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/606373
<bjf> ramdisk.  This looks like it is a variation on Bug #431103, except with
<bjf> the pv-ops hvc console instead of xvc0.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 431103 in linux-ec2 (Ubuntu Karmic) "ssh host key fingerprint no longer available in the console log" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/431103
<bjf> Bug #613083 user-data is corrupted inside metadata service
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 613083 in linux (Ubuntu) "user-data is corrupted inside metadata service" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/613083
<bjf> Bug #613022 ssh daemon hangs after publickey packet sent
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 613022 in openssh (Ubuntu) "ssh daemon hangs after publickey packet sent" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/613022
<bjf> Bug # 613273 kernel panic on ec2 in system_call_fastpath
<bjf> ..
 * smb blinks
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bug-handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bug-handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bug-handling
<JFo> Nothing to report
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-upstart (apw)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-upstart
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-upstart (apw)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-upstart
<apw> Looking into an issue wherein console opens are being failed.  Believe we have the issue diagnosed, a solution is in progress.
<apw> Nothing else to report.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation
<cking_> Changes since last week:
<cking_> * update fwts from 0.17.2 to 0.17.9 in maverick universe
<cking_> * USB key images at http://kernel.ubuntu.com/~kernel-ppa/testing (with help from bjf)
<cking_> * --P, --power-states category for S3 S4 tests
<cking_> * better AML parsing for hpet_check test
<cking_> * nx test: print out model number as integer (fixes segfault)
<cking_> * fix typos in man page
<cking_> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Maverick (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Maverick (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Since our Maverick kernel is now rebased on v2.6.35, we've started applying 2.6.35.y pre-stable patches.  We'll keep Maverick in sync with the 2.6.35.y releases as they become available.
<ogasawara> Maverick Beta is Thurs Sept 2nd, ie ~3weeks away.  Also keep in mind that Kernel Freeze is Thurs Sept 16th, ie ~5weeks away.  We are above our Beta burn down chart's trend line but I'm not too worried as most of the open tasks are investigative in nature and not release critical.
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone ubuntu-10.10-beta
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone ubuntu-10.10-beta
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<smb> ||                   || Upd./Sec.     || Proposed      || TiP || Verified    ||
<smb> || Dapper: Kernel    || 2.6.15-55.86  ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || Hardy:  Kernel    || 2.6.24-28.73  ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || Jaunty: Kernel    || 2.6.28-19.62  ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || Karmic: Kernel    || 2.6.31-22.61  ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       mvl-dove  || 2.6.31-214.29 ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       fsl-imx51 || 2.6.31-112.28 ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       ec2       || 2.6.31-307.16 ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || Lucid:  Kernel    || 2.6.32-24.39  ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       mvl-dove  || 2.6.32-207.21 ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       fsl-imx51 || 2.6.31-608.15 ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       ti-omap   || 2.6.33-502.9  ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       ec2       || 2.6.32-308.14 ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> fsl-imx51 has not been released in security this time as there had been
<smb> problems with certain board revisions. We need to add one more SRU patch
<smb> before next upload.
<smb> For Lucid a new proposed kernel which addresses a few priority issues has been
<smb> uploaded and will get accepted into proposed as soon as the CD images for the
<smb> point release are settled.
<smb> tgardner, Re: fsl board killer
<smb> I think I got a rough idea. There seem to be v2.5 and v3 boards. Claims are that there is something with an acronym I  don't know
<smb> which can get destroyed by apparently all older kernels. Bryan just made a SRU reguest for a patch that fsl claims prevents this
<smb> How we could have ended up with testing only on v3 boards before is a bit of a miracle.
<smb> ..
<tgardner> smb, but with no feedback from FSL that it actually fixes the problem.
<smb> I have not heard anything direct
<tgardner> I'd wait to apply until we know for sure
<tgardner> ..
<smb> I think Bryan had build a kernel with it and sent it to them
<smb> We need to get out of him what they said to it
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> 233 Maverick Bugs (up 32)
<JFo> 1132 Lucid Bugs (up 8)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-potential ====
<JFo>   * 118 maverick bugs (up 7)
<JFo>   * 226 lucid bugs (no change: to be converted to regression-release)
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 42 lucid bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 4 jaunty bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 hardy bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 181 lucid bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 44 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 19 jaunty bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 3 lucid bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> Today is the Bug Day. We are focusing on bugs incorrectly listed as new. These will be put in the correct state and their subsystem tag will be added. I'll update next week with the result. We will continue to have the Team Bug Day to address the Top 50 list as half days on Friday and Monday, as these seem to be working out very well. Reviewers, please take a look at your needs-review lists and help us keep the process moving. I will be in Oxford,
<JFo>  UK next week, so I'll send my metrics update to bjf via e-mail.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> Great work is being done daily in our bugs due to many folks from other userspace systems helping to triage as well as providing numerous nuggets of wisdom to the bug reporters themselves. We met simar during last weeks meeting. simar is workin on expanding multitouch knowledge and looking over those bugs. holstein has been looking at kernel bugs and is currently undergoing bug mentorship with hggdh. I have been mentoring chazn85 also, focusing on
<JFo>  tagging and requests for information. chazn85 has also been looking through our wiki documentation to bring inconsistencies to my attention.
<JFo> I'd also like to thank charlie-tca for all of the work he has been doing ion kernel bugs as well.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<JFo> o/
<bjf> JFo, go
<JFo> I'm having an intermittent issue with my e-mail as far as sending goes
<JFo> if I ask you about something I sent you that you don't remember or didn't get
<JFo> I apologize in advance :)
<JFo> ..
<JFo> oh
<JFo> one other think
<JFo> thing*
<bjf> JFo, keep going :-)
<JFo> we will be having our Monday bug chat on Friday since I will be in Oxford and unavailable next week
<JFo> just FYI
<JFo> ..
<ogasawara> JFo: same time?
<JFo> :-)
<JFo> ogasawara, yes indeed
<JFo> I'll put a calendar item up
<tgardner> JFo, update the calendar?
<JFo> tgardner, ;)
<JFo> doing it now
<bjf> going ..
<bjf> going ..
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:18.
<smb> thanks bjf
<kamal> thanks bjf
<JFo> thanks bjf
<cking_> ta bjf
<jiboumans> o/
<ttx> ~o~
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<Daviey> o/
<mathiaz> O:P
<ttx> let's get started !
<ttx> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:00. The chair is ttx.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ttx> Incredible agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<ttx> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<ttx> * SpamapS to send ruby gems proposel to ubuntu-devel
<ttx> * zul to clean up the SRU assigne list by prodding people on status
<ttx> (maybe we are missing spamaps)
<ttx> (maybe we are missing zul)
<ttx> * everyone to pick 1 or 2 papercuts for the beta cycle
<hggdh> isn't zul on LinuxConf?
<ttx> ^that one is incomplete, looking at https://launchpad.net/server-papercuts/+milestone/maverick-beta
<jiboumans> we are missing zul afaik, but spamaps should be around
 * kim0 is not able to attend this meeting (have to run). But you all know the maps app made its splash. Nothing else to discuss
<ttx> kim0: ack
<smoser> o/
<Daviey> kim0: top work on that :)
<kim0> thanks folks
<ttx> so I'll action you all again... please do it by next week
<ttx> [ACTION] everyone to pick 1 or 2 papercuts for the beta cycle
<MootBot> ACTION received:  everyone to pick 1 or 2 papercuts for the beta cycle
<jiboumans> kim0++ # nice job on the maps
 * hggdh is already geo-located there...
<ttx> Looking at http://people.canonical.com/~chucks/SRUTracker/sru-tracker-bugs.html the list could use more cleaning
<ttx> so I'll action zul again :)
<ttx> [ACTION] zul to continue clean up the SRU assigne list by prodding people on status
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to continue clean up the SRU assigne list by prodding people on status
<ttx> mathiaz: did we have the rubygems proposal posted to ubuntu-devel ?
<jiboumans> spamaps is waiting on the thumbs up afaik
<mathiaz> ttx: not yet - we're currenlty reviewingit
<ttx> ok
<mathiaz> ttx: it should go out in the next week
<ttx> [ACTION] SpamapS to finalize and send ruby gems proposel to ubuntu-devel
<MootBot> ACTION received:  SpamapS to finalize and send ruby gems proposel to ubuntu-devel
<jiboumans> mathiaz: fix still viable for maverick right?
<mathiaz> jiboumans: I don't think so
<mathiaz> jiboumans: was the goal to get it fixed in maverick?
<jiboumans> mathiaz: the hope
<mathiaz> jiboumans: I think it will take more time
<jiboumans> mathiaz: i know maverick+1 is more realistic
<mathiaz> jiboumans: ah - hope
<ttx> I remember hope, it was good.
<mathiaz> jiboumans: agreed - maverick+1 is more realistic
<jiboumans> heh ttx
<ttx> ok, moving on then :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Maverick development (jib)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick development (jib)
<jiboumans> alpha3 delivered last week
<jiboumans> beta started with this list: http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<jiboumans> should be vetted by everyone, so that's the deliverable as far as i'm concerned
<jiboumans> not much more to say to that ;)
<ttx> ok, comments ?
<jiboumans> i think it's a bit early to check on progress as we just started
<ttx> ok, moving on then
<ttx> [TOPIC] 10.04.1 release (ttx)
<MootBot> New Topic:  10.04.1 release (ttx)
<ttx> so this Thursday we have yet another milestone, with 10.04.1
<smoser> or next tuesday
<ttx> smoser: ?
<hggdh> yes, robbiew just postponed it
<jiboumans> it just got postponed
<ttx> robbiew: damn you !
<ttx> all my effects are gone
<hggdh> :-)
 * ttx thinks the server team will have to release it without him
<smoser> the stare of death works on triceritops, but not on robbiew
<ttx> ok, so...
 * jiboumans would rather have a scuff with a triceratops
 * SpamapS wonders who would win that epic battle.. robbiew vs. triceratops
<jiboumans> spamaps: judging by museums world-wide, my money is on robbiew
<Daviey> ttx: Should we be spending time testing Hardy -> 10.04.1 upgrades?
<ttx> Daviey: yes, and some ISO should be spun early next week (or late this week)
<ttx> in both cases I won't be around, so I'll brief someone (Daviey ?) to replace me
<Daviey> ttx: OK.. will you be tracking that?
<Daviey> ttx: I'm /away next week aswell :/
<ttx> or a Daviey-mathiaz team, maybe
<ttx> Daviey: and that got approved ? Let me fix that.
<Daviey> hah
<ttx> any volunteer ?
<smoser> hm... I half raise a hand.
<ttx> I could nominate zul, since he is having fun at Linuxcon
<jiboumans> ttx: we'll sort it between me and mathiaz
<smoser> and zul just dropped.
<ttx> right, we'll sort it off-meeting
<ttx> and I'll send out an email
<ttx> Our last minte thing is Last-minute merge/reupload for bug 571057
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 571057 in openldap (Ubuntu Lucid) "slapd 2.4.21-0ubuntu5 corrupts olcDatabase={-1}frontend.ldif with duplicate olcAccess lines (again)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/571057
<ttx> which was handled succesfully by mathiaz
<ttx> and in verification-needed
<mathiaz> I'll do the verification later today
<mathiaz> once the package has built
<ttx> great, thanks for taking care of that
<ttx> mvo might do some upgrade testing, I'll check that with him
<ttx> any questions before we move on ?
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<ttx> hggdh: floor is yours
<hggdh> nothing new, except having lots of fun with eucalyptus
<ttx> "fun" as in regressions ?
<hggdh> er, yes, I would say so. Very much fun
<jiboumans> hggdh: what's the state on the blocking issues found last week(s)?
<Daviey> jiboumans: I have pushed to a PPA, which should fix the major issues we were concerned about
<Daviey> ie, registration and topology
<hggdh> jiboumans: Daviey just built a new revision, and I just installed it. Will begin to test ASAP
<hggdh> jiboumans: OTOH, we cannot use volumes anymore...
<jiboumans> hggdh, daviey: excellent. let us know how it goes
<hggdh> which I will also test on this revision
<Daviey> If that works out well, i'll get it uploaded loater tonight / tomorrow morning
<ttx> Daviey: so we should have an ISO tomorrow morning to test topology2 ?
<Daviey> ttx: Hmm.. that means uploading it tonight then
<Daviey> which i can prepare..
<hggdh> Daviey: I would get it done no matter what
<hggdh> so, early tomorrow morning (early for me) I can hit topo2
<ttx> Daviey: we can do tomorrow morning
<smoser> is it appropriate for me to ask if anyone is [successfully] using uec-provisioning  ? or should that wait till "open discussion"
<hggdh> Daviey: reasoning is it is difficult to get worse than what we have now
<ttx> smoser: go ahead
<smoser> anyone ? ccheney  ?
<ttx> smoser: haven't used it yet
<hggdh> I have not, not prepared for it
<smoser> i'm wanting to give it a try, but my last attempts ran into all sorts of archive problems that generally blocked me.
<ttx> smoser: might play with it tomorrow
<Daviey> ttx: I'm guessing you'll be around in a few hours.. fancy sponsoring that please?
<Daviey> ttx; Assuming you are on US timezone still
<ttx> I can sponsor in the next 2 hours if needed
<ttx> any other question to hggdh / topic for QA ?
<SpamapS> I had added one
<Daviey> smoser: I'm using uec-provisioning
<ttx> Bug rate extremely high last few weeks -- Triaging getting behind (SpamapS)
<smoser> Daviey, sweet.
<SpamapS> about bug triaging.. I just noticed that it has been spiking a lot the last 3 weeks
<ttx> SpamapS: http://webnumbr.com/ubuntu-server-triage shows a good current status...
<SpamapS> It was at 16 this morning...
<ttx> I'm not sure it's highly unusual
<mathiaz> SpamapS: I went through them today
<SpamapS> I've been triaging one every day..
<SpamapS> but, n/m .. I guess its normal ;)
<SpamapS> I'd love to see the *rate* graphed, not just the state.
<ttx> ok, mocing on then :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<ttx> I don't think we have John
<ttx> I wanted to raise the EC2 kernel issues, I guess that will wait a few
<jiboumans> pinging him now
<jiboumans> take the next topic, we'll revisit
<smoser> jjohansen is in boston linuxcon
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<jiboumans> smoser: aye, but not idle on irc... so if he's around, we'll do the topic.. if not, later
<ttx> we don't have sommer either :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Community Team (kim0)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Community Team (kim0)
<jiboumans> .. nor kim0 ;)
<Daviey> heh, not here either :)
<jiboumans> jjohansen is here though
<ttx> So we had the update at the beginning of the meeting
<jiboumans> wee
<ttx> back to kernel, I guess
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> hey \o
<ttx> jjohansen: quick update on bug 597387 and Bug 574910: ?
<jiboumans> hey jjohansen. thanks for making time during linuxcon
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 597387 in Ubuntu Maverick "pv-ops kernel only works in 3 of 4 zones in EC2" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/597387
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 574910 in linux-ec2 (Ubuntu) "High load averages on Lucid while idling" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/574910
<jjohansen> alright 597387 - is a couple issues it will need some user side support in stripping and packaging a kernel special as it is built different
<jjohansen> erg no disregard wrong bug
<jjohansen> 597387 - we are working in all zones
<smoser> 597387 should probably be closed.
<jjohansen> yeah
<ttx> ah, good news
<jiboumans> jjohansen++ smoser++ # awesome
 * ttx closes
<jjohansen> 574910 - I have a test kernel building, and I should have an update for that tonight
<smoser> there are open issues though.
<jjohansen> yes lots of bugs
<smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/476072/ is the list i had from alpha-3
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://paste.ubuntu.com/476072/ is the list i had from alpha-3
<ttx> jjohansen: ok, so it sounds like you're on top on this one
<jiboumans> jjohansen: i care very strongly about 574910 - is there anything we can do to expedite a fix?
<jjohansen> well, the problem is the bug is in the large xen patchset, and its not bisectable so it is slow going
<jjohansen> The 3 points I have is karmic version of it and Lucid, and future point
<jiboumans> jjohansen: understood.. can we help testing? or ask pete nicely to give you more time? :)
<jjohansen> and working through the thousands of changes is slow
<jjohansen> jiboumans: basically I have been on it full time for the last few days
<jjohansen> testing will help, I am going to publish a kernel tonight and get results back would be helpful
<jiboumans> jjohansen: ttx and smoser should be able to coordinate testing help - don't hesitate to ask
<jjohansen> jibousmans, right I will be bugging smoser
<ttx> ok, moving on then
<jjohansen> the other bugs I have poked at a bit, but no real results yet
<jjohansen> ..
<ttx> anything else for John ?
<jiboumans> a beer next time i see him :)
<jjohansen> hehe :)
<ttx> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Community Team (kim0)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Community Team (kim0)
<ttx> pasting for reference:
<ttx> * kim0 is not able to attend this meeting (have to run). But you all know the maps app made its splash. Nothing else to discuss
<ttx> comments ?
<jiboumans> tweet/blog it
<jiboumans> see here:  http://foss-boss.blogspot.com/2010/08/ubuntu-server-10041-virtual-release.html
<jiboumans> and here:  http://maps.ubuntu.com/
<ttx> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<ttx> ...
<Daviey> We need to get some movement on, Bug #613463 . I had hoped to have a discussion between cjwatson, smoser and myself.  However, cjwatson is on holiday at the moment; so we need to grab someone else suitable from foundations.  Scott?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 613463 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "[10.10 - Alpha 3 (candidate)] Prompts misleading grub dialogs during UEC Node installation." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/613463
<smoser> i can really only think of the 2 ways to solve it.
<ttx> Daviey: looks like not depending on grub would fix that, no ?
<smoser> a.) cut up grub more
<smoser> b.) do not list a dependency
<ttx> I'd go for (b) for the time being
<ttx> and ask Colin when he gets back
<smoser> yeah. its definitely easy short term.
<Daviey> Okay.. i'll push a fix for that.. easy nuff.
 * Daviey done.
<smoser> Daviey, i can push that
<smoser> if you'd like
<smoser> i'm touching it right now
<Daviey> smoser: go for it.
<ttx> ok, anything else ?
<SpamapS> CEPH is in Maverick now! :)
 * SpamapS ^5's mathiaz
<ttx> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<ttx> Tuesday 2010-08-17 at 1800 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<ttx> I won't be there, but have fun
<ttx> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:51.
<jiboumans> thanks all!
<nhandler> Meeting time
<PabloRubianes> yes meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-08-11
<duanedesign> woot
<dvz-> w00t w00t..mtg
<duanedesign> well we have given a minute or two for stragglers
<duanedesign> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:02. The chair is duanedesign.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<duanedesign> [TOPIC] Review List Of Prospective Members In Need Of Mentor.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review List Of Prospective Members In Need Of Mentor.
<duanedesign> we have 6 people on the prospective list looking for mentors
<duanedesign> i cleaned this out recently... there are still a couple i have not seen in awhile
<nhandler> duanedesign: You are skipping your agenda item? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<duanedesign> nhandler: i was going to do it last
<nhandler> Ok
<duanedesign> or at least  after a few items. In hopes some peps might show up
<duanedesign> peeps*
<duanedesign> :P
<duanedesign> Nu2boonage is one on the list i have seenn around a lot
<duanedesign> so we should at least try and make a point to get them a mentor
<PabloRubianes> I think I can have on Prospect
<PabloRubianes> as mine is having some pesonal issues with life and little time, I can help other
<nhandler> Great PabloRubianes.
<duanedesign> sounds good.
<duanedesign> We also need to clean up that master list
<nhandler> PabloRubianes: Can you inform him about this and update the wiki list?
<PabloRubianes> I will talk to him, if he wants me as tutor :P
<duanedesign> [ACTION] pablorubianes to mentor nUboon2Age
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pablorubianes to mentor nUboon2Age
<duanedesign> we should make an attempt to see if those people on the list are still around
<duanedesign> if you see any of them around please make note of it so we can determine who is still around and in need of a mentor
<duanedesign> doews anyone here have a prospect?
<duanedesign> PabloRubianes: you already told us yours was having an issue
<duanedesign> i do :)
<PabloRubianes> not an issue, more like wife pregnant and little time
<duanedesign> malev and km0r3 are doing great
<duanedesign> PabloRubianes: that will do it
<duanedesign> :)
<duanedesign> i would love to try and get km0r3 and malev to be voted on soon
<PabloRubianes> they are cool people!
<duanedesign> they have shown great commitment over the last several months
<duanedesign> shredder12 is another prospect i have. He has also been a prospect for awhile
<duanedesign> so if you have a chance get to know  them as I would like to vote on them soon
<nhandler> I have been doing some work with phillw for a while now.
<duanedesign> phillw does ggreat work in #ubuntu-beginners
<nhandler> He has also been doing some good work in the greater community
<duanedesign> thats great
<duanedesign> hello nUboon2Age
<nUboon2Age> phillw: lots of work on promoting lubuntu
<nUboon2Age> duanedesign: hey duanedesign
<duanedesign> we were just talking about you :) all good of course
<nUboon2Age> :)
<duanedesign> nUboon2Age: i think PabloRubianes is going to talk to you after the meeting about being your mentor
<nUboon2Age> PabloRubianes just came and 'got' me. :)
<PabloRubianes> I already did
<duanedesign> well great!
<duanedesign> ok
<duanedesign> [TOPIC] Focus Group wiki pages
<MootBot> New Topic:  Focus Group wiki pages
<duanedesign> i sent an email out last month outlining some focus group goals, Tasks and trying to get the mission of the Focus groups figured out
<duanedesign> or at least get the mission in writing so everyone understands what it is we are doing in each group
<duanedesign> the Tasks are to be items people can reference when they want to do something for that Focus Ggroup
<duanedesign> i get asked a lot I am interested in * FG what cann I do
<duanedesign> so we have a list, and that list will also be a roadmap for that person to become better educated about that area of the community
<duanedesign> also our Focus Groups need to work harder at getting our members establisheed in the broader community
<duanedesign> if you are in the wikiFG you should be working towards 'wiki admin group'
<duanedesign> launchpadFG --> Bug Control
<duanedesign> Dev --> MOTU
<duanedesign> etc, etc
<nhandler> Well, working towards those teams is less important than working with them imo
<duanedesign> so we have a rough outline in the email i sent out. We need to take that and  put it into our Focus Group wiki pages
<duanedesign> nhandler: that is a valid point
<duanedesign> if you work with them the other will come as a natural progression
<duanedesign> i think the Focus Group pages should follow a more uniform outline
<duanedesign> they should all generally want to convey the same information. There willl be variation, but for the most part they should be similar
<duanedesign> i think this will help make info easier to find and help insure each FG covers all its bases on their wiki page
<nhandler> duanedesign: Do you think it would help if we made a generic template?
<duanedesign> nhandler: that is a good idea.
<PabloRubianes> they (pages) should have info in order people get into the FGs in the propper way...
<nhandler> Might be a good task for the wiki fg
<duanedesign> the wiki FG page is pretty good
<duanedesign> i added a little 'header' at the top of each page. With info about each team. Email, IRC channel, etc.
<duanedesign> someone suggesed having the lead in that group of info...
<duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Wiki
<duanedesign> example^
<nUboon2Age> note: i didn't even know about the idea of FG's until Zach explained it to me.  there was little information about it on the wikis.  i like the idea of creating more obvious paths for people to move through to become more involved with the community.
<duanedesign> nUboon2Age: that is a good point.
<PabloRubianes> one thing is not importan the email, as we only have one ML
<PabloRubianes> important*
<PabloRubianes> and the Wiki FG wiki is really helpfull
<duanedesign> we have this page   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups
<duanedesign> maybe incorporate some of that into the main page?
<duanedesign> the little table with the 'if you are interested in X see Y'
<duanedesign> PabloRubianes: good point about  email
<duanedesign> I will email the list and try and get some volunteers to work on the wiki
<duanedesign> and talk with swoody about the wiki FG helping
<duanedesign> [ACTION] duanedesign email BTML about focus group wiki page reworking
<MootBot> ACTION received:  duanedesign email BTML about focus group wiki page reworking
<duanedesign> [IDEA] make a template for focus group pages to follow
<MootBot> IDEA received:  make a template for focus group pages to follow
<duanedesign> i dont think we have anyone to vote on?
<nUboon2Age> to amend what i said before about having more obvious paths to move through to get more involved w/ community, i agree with nhandler that it seems to me more important to work with a team rather than be a part of one.
<PabloRubianes> i don't think so
<duanedesign> nUboon2Age: do you think adding the table that is on the Focus Group page to the mainpage would help?
<nUboon2Age> since people's participation waxes and wanes, and not everyone is a 'joiner', but everyone can appreciate having some structured paths, and expectation setting.
<duanedesign> definetly.
<duanedesign> I think getting the 'structured path' a little more organized for each Focus group would help alot
<nUboon2Age> duanedesign: adding it to which main page?
<nUboon2Age> oh probably you mean the BT main page.
<duanedesign> the beginners team main page
<duanedesign> :)
<duanedesign> there was talk of redoing this page at UDS and the BT possibly helping with that. http://www.ubuntu.com/community
<nhandler> duanedesign: cjohnston was working on that iirc
<duanedesign> however that currently IMHO is beyond our resources at the moment. Would be nice to work towards having the momentum and manpower to do something like that
<duanedesign> nhandler: yes, he was.
<duanedesign> ok
<duanedesign> any volunteers to do post meeting tasks?
<nUboon2Age> duanedesign: looking at the main bt page again for the first time in a bit its definately shaping up.  I like the friendly focus group buttons from the other page, so that might work.  having just seen them for the first time i don't have a definite response. ;)
 * nhandler would prefer not to do them again
<duanedesign> nUboon2Age: it is definetly good to get a perspective from a new eye
<duanedesign> Update Next meeting time on the wiki
<duanedesign> Keep BeginnersTeam/TeamReports updated.
<nhandler> Don't forget Send meeting minutes to ubuntu-beginners mailing list
<duanedesign> put the logs on the wiki
<duanedesign> and send to ML
<duanedesign> ok anything else?
<duanedesign> anyone?
<duanedesign> <.<  >.>
<nhandler> PabloRubianes or nUboon2Age: Either of you up for it?
<duanedesign> i can do one of them
<PabloRubianes> yes
<nUboon2Age> duanedesign: i didn't catch the whole meeting and would prefer to observe for now. thanks.
<duanedesign> ok then
<duanedesign> oh one more thing
<duanedesign> Diego is starting to organize classes that are Development related
<duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Development/Academy
<duanedesign> right now there is a C++ class that is taking shape
<nhandler> Hmm...I should talk to him with my classroom hat on
<duanedesign> should start in about a week
<duanedesign> nhandler: would your idea be that it should be in #ubuntu-classroom
<duanedesign> and open/advertised to the broader community?
<nhandler> duanedesign: Probably. But I'd need to look into the nature of the classes a bit more
<duanedesign> ok
<duanedesign> if anyone has an idea for a class or wants to participate see the wiki page
<duanedesign> or talk to Diego. I have also been trying to get mohi to join in this effort
<duanedesign> he has done a good job organizing classes in ##learners
<duanedesign> ok i think that is it :)
<duanedesign> one more time anyone have anything to add
<duanedesign> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:51.
<duanedesign> 9 minutes to spare :)
<duanedesign> thank you all
<nhandler> Thanks for chairing duanedesign
<nUboon2Age> duanedesign: :-)
<km0r3> where can i get the logs?
<PabloRubianes> log done, what else?
<PabloRubianes> km0r3: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings/20100810
<km0r3> PabloRubianes: thanks :)
<PabloRubianes> duanedesign: what else I have to do?
<cjohnston> duanedesign: nhandler I have kind-of hit stops of people not following through even with polite harassment..
<duanedesign> cjohnston: thanks for the update
<mvo> hello
<psurbhi> o/
<robbiew> hi
<mvo> it looks like we are not that many people for todays meeting, is it just the three of us?
 * robbiew votes to cancel
<highvoltage> good afternoon/evening!
<highvoltage> it's edubuntu meeting time, agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Meetings/Agenda
<highvoltage> Maverick release schedule is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickReleaseSchedule
 * bencrisford waves hello
<highvoltage> I'm kind of tired this afternoon so please bear with me :)
<highvoltage> who do we have present? bencrisford, dgroos? anyone else? :)
<dgroos> hi-yes, I'm here!
<highvoltage> well, some quick notes on technical updates
<highvoltage> feature freeze is on Thursday
<bencrisford> thursday?! woah, ive been absent for longer than i thought :S
<highvoltage> we're going to drop the qimo option, since there's not going to be enough time to do it properly
<mhall119> I'm not even sure i'm going to get anything done on Qimo for 10.10, other than maybe some bug fixes
<highvoltage> currently the edubuntu-artwork package doesn't run the gconf configuration, so the current edubuntu daily buidls look exactly the same as ubuntu
<highvoltage> it should be fine now, I'll test after the meeting and then upload
<highvoltage> mhall119: bug fixes are always cool :)
<highvoltage> I have the ubiquity plugins included in our livecd package
<highvoltage> it doesn't work at all though :)
<highvoltage> but at least it's in for feature freeze
<dgroos> livecd or livedvd?
<highvoltage> so in short, a bunch of stuff isn't working but we're actually looking quite good at this stage despite it
<highvoltage> dgroos: it's for the live dvd, but the package is called edubuntu-livecd (or something like that) :)
<dgroos> right.
<highvoltage> can't think of anything else technical-wise, but I'm sure there is :)
<highvoltage> dgroos: let's move on to setup instructions!
<dgroos> Sure
<dgroos> We often talk about how to support teachers
<dgroos> and I think that's also saying how to support 'novice' users of edubuntu/ubuntu in any role in education.
<dgroos> Well, last summer a gent helped me out.  He was quite adept at Ubuntu but...
<highvoltage> (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdubuntuDocumentation/EdubuntuCookbook/BasicSetup for otherse who might not have seen it)
<dgroos> ...setting up LTSP brought him to a near beginner level again.
<dgroos> yes thanks...
<dgroos> so what I'm advocating is to have a central page with a connection to the essential setup how-tos
<dgroos> and highvoltage just sent a link to the page.
<highvoltage> we really needed that for 10.04 already, it's great that you're taking this on, many people will appreciate it
<dgroos> One person sent some feedback and based on that I moved some of the "mandatory tasks" to the "optional tasks" list.
<dgroos> What do people think?
<highvoltage> I guess not even "Install LTSP" is really a mandatory task
<highvoltage> some people install edubuntu for a home machine as well
<dgroos> As you can see it is in the initial stage.  I've been creating them as I do them but that's slow--need more writers, esp. those in the know.
<highvoltage> that mandatory list looks quite typical for an ltsp lab though
<highvoltage> dgroos: how about blogging about it and getting some people involved who read planet ubuntu?
<highvoltage> dgroos: hmm, just realised you're not on planet ubuntu, do you have a blog?
<dgroos> highvoltage: true, one of the givens at the top of the page is that it's for an LTSP Lab--maybe I should add some astrixs if an item is not needed for non LTSP setup--sure, I'll do that.
<dgroos> I've got a blog but not with the readership that would make a difference :-) http://groosd.blogspot.com
<dgroos> How about if I blog about it, then you make a short blog and refer to it?  Or, you copy it to your blog?
<highvoltage> dgroos: yep, we can do so
<dgroos> Right, I'll get something to you.  Thanks!
<highvoltage> oh! that reminds me of some website news, canonical IS fixed my rights on the web server, so I can upload the new theming, etc for our website!
<highvoltage> and we can finally fix a whole bunch of long-standing issues there as well
<bencrisford> highvoltage, :D!
<highvoltage> dgroos: so we can actually have an edubuntu blog or something that gets agregated to planet ubuntu
<highvoltage> dgroos: that might be kind of useful for announcing these kind of things
<dgroos> That is a cool idea--a kind of group blog?
<highvoltage> dgroos: something like that, yes
<dgroos> Interesting--keep sending e-mails to the lists for example with this info--we need some chatter!
<highvoltage> I'll send the meeting notes to the list, and then some seperate updates on the website as it progresses
<dgroos> OK that's all I wanted to put out there.  Any feedback is always useful.  I'll make a post and send the link out to our list serve as well!
<dgroos> highvoltage: which website do you mean?
<highvoltage> dgroos: edubuntu website. I meant, post updates about the website to the list as the website progresses
<dgroos> ah, right.
<highvoltage> dgroos: are you fine with leading up the documentation?
<dgroos> As a blind man is describing the surface of the moon, but yes.
<highvoltage> dgroos: I'd like to make you the contact person for people who'd like to contribute to documentation, there's often people who want to help but we don't really have nice structure, so we end up losing them
<highvoltage> dgroos: in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king ;)
<dgroos> ;)
<highvoltage> we need to come up with some low-maintenance ideas for using the website to engage with teachers
<dgroos> would you link to the site here...
<highvoltage> dgroos: well, it's edubuntu.org, but the new stuff isn't up yet, and still in progress :)
<dgroos> cool.
<highvoltage> I think having stories of schools and users who use edubuntu in any capacity would be nice. a showcase that shows what works and what doesn't work yet with existing users
<highvoltage> we've received stories before but they got lost in people's mailboxes and list archives, which is pretty sad really
<rockstar> Why don't we just mine the list archives for them?
<rockstar> Isn't that what archives are for?
<highvoltage> rockstar: yep, that's the plan! I have most of them flagged, it's just that keeping them there and not exposing them more is a bit boring
<rockstar> highvoltage, mining in general is boring.  :)
<dgroos> To get more utility/followership, I'd suggest that we not focus *just* on using edubuntu in education (though that would be the backbone of it all).
<highvoltage> dgroos: indeed. it would be a start, at least
<highvoltage> dgroos: I'd also be glad to even include news of what might be viewed as 'our competition'. like k12-ltsp, debian-edu, etc
<highvoltage> oh and Qimo :)
<dgroos> This is because, edubuntu is just a piece of the puzzle to the teacher, but for example, how does one go about crafting assignments that use computers in a classroom when there is only 4 computers in the room?
<dgroos> I'm talking about that practical stuff, practical for the teacher anyway.
<highvoltage> dgroos: articles that give tips on that, would be absolutely amazing. if we could get to the point where we had resources like that, I'd consider it a very important milestone for the project
<dgroos> cool.
<dgroos> I didn't know that.  I wonder if other teachers didn't as well?
<highvoltage> dgroos: I guess there's lots of things and improvisations that teachers do with computers that we don't know about, which is also why I'm so anxious to get them to share ideas
<highvoltage> dgroos: hopefully we'll soon have some more platform and a bigger voice to get the word out there
<dgroos> As I've said, I can't imagine that the knowledge base required to teach effectively is any smaller than the knowledge base required to program effectively.
<dgroos> making space on the website for those different knowledge domains would be useful...
<highvoltage> I think with 10.10 edubuntu will probably be where I wanted it to be 3 years ago already. it is getting a lot easier to use and install, and there's some great admin tools emerging
<highvoltage> ah, also on the technical front, I forgot to mention that nanny is now uploaded in the archive, I uploaded it last friday and we'll be able to include it in Edubuntu for maverick
<dgroos> I'm very happy with 10.04!  Can't wait to see about 10.10.
<dgroos> Good for home users--I'll need it as my son gets a bit older :)
<highvoltage> if we can get edubuntu to the point where it's a great platform to create lessons and give classes, along with good documentation and examples of how to do that by other teachers, then I think it could help a really huge amount of people out there
<highvoltage> anyway, sorry if I babble too much about this, I just think it's really important
<dgroos> Yes, and what people are doing is laying important groundwork for this.  THANKS!
<dgroos> babbling isn't done just by brooks, you know :)
<highvoltage> brooks?
<dgroos> hmmm... babbling brooks, hmmm... trying to explain it shows me I'm being a bit too stream-of-conscious...
<highvoltage> heh, I looked on the urban dictionary but couldn't see anything relevant :)
<highvoltage> I need to leave in a minute or so, anything else we need to cover?
<bencrisford> highvoltage, i was going to mention marketing materials, but I guess it isnt urgent
<dgroos> i'll expound further in #edubuntu :)
<highvoltage> bencrisford: ok, make noise about it in the channel and lists so long, let's discuss it in the meantime and also in next week's meeting!
<highvoltage> I'll fix our artwork package a bit later today at least
<bencrisford> ill email the list in a min :)
<highvoltage> but I guess this is the end of our meeting, next one is same time next week!
<highvoltage> *GONG*
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-08-12
<aday> meeting time?
<wers> Hi aday
<aday> wers, JanCBorchardt_: hey
<JanCBorchardt_> hey everyone
<aday> andreasn: hola
<andreasn> hey
<JanCBorchardt_> andreasn, here ;)
<aday> no mpt.. i can't stay that long today. anything in particular that people want to talk about?
<wers> mpt's on #ayatana, though
 * aday fetches mpt
<mpt> hi
<aday> mpt: hey
<wers> brb
<mpt> Sorry, I was so engrossed in specification writing that I forgot what time it was
<mpt> Who's here?
<aday> mpt: me, andreasn, wers, JanCBorchardt...
<aday> vish: you here?
<vish> yup , sorta
<mpt> Anyone seen mgunes? He sent a proposed agenda
<aday> nope
<aday> is there anything on the agenda that people want to talk about?
<mpt> mgunes mentioned the Update Manager redesign
<mpt> I didn't know that blueprint existed, but I've been working on a specification <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareUpdateHandling>
<mpt> and devildante has implemented a couple of parts of it
<mpt> He also mentioned the Firefox 4 "Firefox" button
<mpt> Anyone want to say anything about that? :-)
 * vish remembers wers' call for help! ;)
<andreasn> I spoke with Faaborg a bit about the Firefox button at the Mozilla Summit. He said he wanted to do what made most sense for the platform
<mpt> The problem being multiple platforms
<mpt> Gnome Shell and Unity taking quite different approaches to this
<andreasn> yeah, he was really concerned about that specifically.
<aday> i'm not that familiar with the workings of gtk-application...
<vish> mpt: chrome doesnt have a menubar either..
<andreasn> maybe a config key, and then the netbooks variant can set "traditional-menu-whatever" to true and it would get a global menu thing
 * thorwil says hi and skims log
<mpt> vish, it does on Mac OS X. At UDS we talked about using the same menus when the global menu bar is available
<andreasn> as it's currently possible to set to "old regular menu" or "new one-button menu" on windows
<vish> mpt: yes , in OSX , but in gnome , it doesnt right now , and it seems to work pretty well.
<mpt> So, I guess there needs to be an easy way to tell "what environment am I in? is it Gnome Shell, or Unity, or something else?"
<andreasn> I have no idea how to solve that
<aday> seems like this is a conversation that needs to happen between the shell and unity people
<andreasn> indeed
<vish> aday: why mention it as " shell and unity people " !  :s
<aday> vish: eh?
 * vish not really liking that there are two groups.. 
<vish>  <aday> seems like this is a conversation that needs to happen between the shell and unity people
<thorwil> current gnome, shell, unity ... makes me want to lean back, wait and see what happens
<aday> vish: i don't like it either :) but that's the situation
<vish> might be fun for the concerned parties to fight it out and come out victors but this is getting sorta ridiculous
<aday> vish: do you know anybody working on both projects?! :)
<andreasn> and neither of those are actually out, so what makes most sense to do _today_?
<mpt> Unity will be released in UNE 10.10
<andreasn> October?
<vish> yup
<mpt> I mean, it will be shipped by default in UNE 10.10
<andreasn> and the desktop variant of both Suse, Fedora and Ubuntu will have the regular old panel and stuff when FF comes out in December-January
<andreasn> and Shell is early March
<andreasn> I like the button approach since it gives more space to actual web content, but I could live with a traditional menu for Firefox 4.0 too
<andreasn> hey mgunes
<mpt> hi mgunes :-)
<mpt> The other thing mgunes raised was heuristic bug tagging
<mpt> In <https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/design-m-heuristics-and-bugs> I see a bunch of TODOs assigned to Canonical people
<aday> andreasn: i couldn't, but i don't see what good us talking about this will do
<mgunes> hi all; I'll be catching up. I have a flaky connection.
<andreasn> I've been using heuristic bug tagging for Thunderbird a bit (on mozilla bugzilla). Working pretty good so far
<andreasn> even though it takes a bit of time to get used to at first
<mgunes> andreasn, is the use of it widespread on bugzilla? how many people actively tag bugs?
<andreasn> right now it's me and Ludovic (the Thunderbird QA person) who are most active doing it
<andreasn> and the Firefox UX people are starting to use it more and more
<thorwil> what is the desired result, once those tags are in wide use?
<andreasn> to be able to put more reason behind bug decisions and be able to establish a common vocabulary in bug reports
<andreasn> and to be able to prioritize bugs, similar to what we do to, say, crashers
<thorwil> ^^seems all that should be in the blueprint
<aday> andreasn: do you have definitions or guidance that go along with each tag?
<mgunes> and create some mindshare for design, since these would be among the official tags (there's a distinction in LP between a project's official bug tags and other arbitrary tags)
<vish> actually it was mentioned somewhere..
<andreasn> http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2010/04/22/dont-talk-about-users/
<mgunes> http://uxmag.com/strategy/quantifying-usability
<andreasn> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tJxF8zTuLdEj9pUcxnLAemA&output=html
<andreasn> I used it on a bug where someone was complaining about the dropdown buttons having an ugly color in the Windows theme
<andreasn> but it was the same as all other similar controls in windows
<andreasn> so I felt it was a case of ux-consistency, and made the bug WONTFIX
<andreasn> then the reporter told me to fuck off, but that's a different story
<thorwil> heh
<mgunes> It should be relatively easier to apply it to an upstream project, since it has a narrower focus
<andreasn> and everyone else subscribed to the bug agreed that this was indeed the sane outcome and that it should be consistent
<andreasn> I was hoping for Ubuntu to try it out in action before I suggest applying it to GNOME
<mgunes> since we have a large selection of packages, it might be a good idea to confine it to a specific set (desktop defaults? ayatana?), and to incoming bugs only.
<andreasn> we ran it on uxprio-bugs on Thunderbird first
<mgunes> hmm
<andreasn> so yeah, start small
<andreasn> just to learn your way around and to teach others
<aday> gotta run, i'm afraid - see you all around
<andreasn> because the most important part of it is to establish a way of talking in a common matter on UX issues
<andreasn> and get away from "I think that..." or "My grandmother couldn't use that (I think)"
<mgunes> andreasn, agreed; less bikeshedding, more common ground, hopefully
<thorwil> i allowed myself to edit https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/design-m-heuristics-and-bugs
<mgunes> mpt: do you know if ivanka considers the list of tags on the spec final, or can we add others? and can we help michael forrest with the HIG examples?
<mgunes> I'd appreciate a log, by the way
<andreasn> I think she wanted to start with just a couple of them, and then add the rest later
<mpt> I just asked Michael about it, and he mumbled vaguely about getting around to it sometime. :-) I think he'd be happy if anyone took on the task themselves
<andreasn> but it probably makes sense to end up with the same list as Faaborg in the end
<mpt> Ivanka is away until the week after next.
<mgunes> hmm, noted; thanks.
<wers> back. look like I missed some stuff
 * wers reads log
 * mgunes needs log
<andreasn> here is the bug btw https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=577032
<ubottu> Mozilla bug 577032 in Message Compose Window "A horrible turquoise hover color appears." [Trivial,Resolved: wontfix]
<JanCBorchardt_> what about those bugs tagged Â»usabilityÂ« (most often by the reporters themselves): https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=usability
<mgunes> I guess the examples would have to be based on the "old" HIG for now?
<mpt> JanCBorchardt_, that's not really a useful tag, because it can apply to so many different types of bug
<andreasn> JanCBorchardt_, maybe they can be converted to more specific heuristic keywords. "Usability" is so broad
<mgunes> I think those bugs might mostly be good candidates for initial evaluation beyond incoming bugs
<JanCBorchardt_> mpt: yep, exactly. I meant in a way of re-tagging
<JanCBorchardt_> or many times it may not be usability-related at all
<mpt> ah right
<mpt> So, are we done?
<thorwil> "Should we push towards making more active use of the mailing list, or other resources such as the wiki or an IRC channel?"
<mgunes> mpt, I guess I can find michael on #dx, if I am to take up the HIG examples part?
<mpt> mgunes, he's michaelforrest, online but not in any channels at the moment.
<JanCBorchardt_> if any IRC channel, just #ayatana?
<mpt> #ayatana suits me
<JanCBorchardt_> if we need any feedback from developers, they are there
<mgunes> mpt, thanks
<JanCBorchardt_> or what are other IRC channels to join that are similar?
<thorwil> ok, gone -> coffee :)
<wers> I hope, there's a publicly accessible Google Wave
<wers> stuff are much easier to track and organize there
<mgunes> on the topic of resources, I think I can do an initial wiki home page similar to..
<mgunes> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<wers> I hope aday's still here. he's good at wikis
<wers> have you heard of Novell Pulse? is it going to be like an open source Google Wave?
<mgunes> does anyone use Delicious or some other public bookmarking service? It might be a good idea to gather links of interest that we come across, both among ourselves and with the broader community
<mgunes> wers, sounds similar to Etherpad
<wers> mgunes, hmm yep
<wers> I dunno.. there's just something about etherpad that doesnt make me so comfortable
 * mgunes skims log
<wers> who's gonna be in GNOME.Asia this weekend?
<wers> I'm flying to Taiwan tomorrow
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-08-13
<huats> morning
<seb128> hey
<robbiew> 0/
 * marjo waves
 * robbiew settles in
<robbiew> for the ride...yeehaw!
<Daviey>  o/
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jdstrand> o/
<ogra> moo
 * mathiaz waves
 * robbiew will officially start meeting in 4min
<robbiew> 3min
<robbiew> 2min
<robbiew> 1min
 * jdstrand wonders if there will be a 10 second countdown
<robbiew> lol
<ogasawara> the suspense is killing me
<ScottK> \o
 * jdstrand is ready to jump out of the gate
<robbiew> [TOPIC] 10.10
<MootBot> New Topic:  10.10
<jdstrand> \o/
<robbiew> I'm not going to paste the usual links...they are in the agenda
<robbiew> so let's jump in
<robbiew> [TOPIC] QA Team Report
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Team Report
<marjo> # Hardware testing
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Laptops
<marjo>     passed   43 (91%)    failed    0 ( 0%)    untested  4 ( 9%)
<marjo> Servers
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo>     passed   56 (86%)    failed    0 ( 0%)    untested  9 (14%)
<marjo> Netbooks
<marjo>     passed   14 (93%)    failed    0 ( 0%)    untested  1 ( 7%)
<marjo> Desktops
<marjo>     passed    9 (60%)    failed    0 ( 0%)    untested  4 (40%)
<marjo> results are looking good, except for desktops blocked on resources; been escalated
<marjo> Boot Performance Week of 5/08/2010-12/08/2010
<marjo> ---------------------------------------------
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/daily-bootcharts/averages.html
<marjo> Total number of systems with regressions: 1 out of 49 systems
<marjo> Specific System(s):
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/daily-bootcharts/averages.html
<marjo> Asus Eee PC 900 (Laptop)[1]     Desktop regressed: 10.39s
 * slangasek sneaks into the back
<robbiew> do we do any bluetooth testing as part of the hardware tests?
<marjo> robbiew: manual testing only
 * jdstrand nods to slangasek 
<robbiew> how recently have we tested it...because it appears to be broken currently :/
<robbiew> though I know it WAS working
<marjo> robbiew: we're going to do manual testing based on alpha3, so we'll report again later
<robbiew> ok...I think I already know the results :P
<robbiew> one more question
<robbiew> are all the machines in the daily-bootcharts running Ubuntu Desktop?
<robbiew> or are some running UNE
<fader_> robbiew: We do bluetooth as part of the manual tests
<robbiew> is there an echo in here?
<robbiew> lol
<fader_> Heh, sorry, missed marjo's answer :)
<marjo> robbiew: per earlier agreement, we run desktop edition on desktops & UNE on netbooks
<ameetp> robbiew:  daily-bootcharts some run UNE
<robbiew> okay, perfect
<marjo> robbiew: is this report format ok with you?
<robbiew> could we somehow note the ones running UNE...doesn't need to be fancy
<robbiew> a simple "*" by the name would work for me
<ameetp> robbiew: ack.  I will make that edit
<robbiew> thnx
<marjo> robbiew: we'll do for next report
<marjo> Spec Status
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-platform-qa-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<marjo> qa-maverick-mago-daily, 17% complete
<marjo> qa-maverick-automated-server-testing, 0% complete, Stalled due to UEC testing.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-platform-qa-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<robbiew> marjo: yeah...looking good
<marjo> robbiew: that's it for 10.10
<robbiew> ameetp: would also be good if we could have separate averages for machines running Ubuntu Desktop and those running UNE
<robbiew> marjo: thnx
<robbiew> ameetp: asking so that we can catch any regressions that affect UNE or Desktop *only*...helps in chasing down the problem
<robbiew> any questions for QA?
<ameetp> robbiew: sure
<ScottK> There was some discussion about getting some Kubuntu boot charts in there a few weeks ago.
<ScottK> That'd still be nice.
<robbiew> there was?.../me must have been out
<marjo> ScottK: agree, still investigating
<ScottK> OK.
<robbiew> ScottK: sorry...or I would have made a note of it
<ScottK> No problem.  marjo's on it.
<robbiew> and by marjo...that means ameetp :P
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Security team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update
<marjo> robbiew: of course, everyone knew that!
<robbiew> heh
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> No milestoned bugs. As I've mentioned before, blueprints for the cycle are generally slipping due to high/complicated security update load. That said, we pushed before FF for several time-sensitive work items and got them in. For what remains we will continue to get to what we can while postponing others.
<jdstrand> Next week, mdeslaur will be uploading -proposed packages for security-m-tls-renegotiation-updates, our last remaining essential blueprint.
<jdstrand> As for milestoned blueprints, I finished the libvirt 0.8.3 merge this week and kees is continuing to work on his 4 remaining work items for the arm security blueprints. It is slow going without physical access to hardware though.
<jdstrand> We have one release-targeted bug: bug #545795. There is a patch for pci devices, but it needs upstream review, which I hope to push upstream today or early next week. I just need to find the time to work on the hostdev part.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 545795 in libvirt (Ubuntu Maverick) "apparmor driver blocks access to some hostdev and pcidev devices" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/545795
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<robbiew> thnx jdstrand
<robbiew> questions for security?
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Kernel team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update
<ogasawara> Overall Kernel Team status is summarised at the first URL below, including the item(s) called out in the agenda.  Our burndown chart for Beta is at the third URL, and our overall burndown chart is at the fourth:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone ubuntu-10.10-beta
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone ubuntu-10.10-beta
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<ogasawara> On the specs noted in the agenda, status is as follows:
<ogasawara> * kernel-maverick-apparmor: 83% complete.  The remaining userspace log parsing bits are progressing nicely and should be compelted by Beta.
<ogasawara> * kernel-maverick-pv-ops-ec2-kernel: 75% complete.  The -virtual kernel has been enabled as a pv-ops kernel on EC2.  This does not include the pv-on-HVM drivers which are required for Amazon's Compute Cloud.  pv-on-HVM is currently being evaluated and we expect this to be completed in time for Beta.
<ogasawara> On the bugs noted in the agenda, status is as follows:
<ogasawara> Bug 591941 - mpoirier is discussing a resolution with the upstream developers.  It appears this issue was the result of a separate upstream fix.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 591941 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "SDHC card not recognized" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/591941
<ogasawara> Bug 595489 - A patch has been accepted upstream and expected to land in upstream stable v2.6.35.2. We'll rebase Maverick to v2.6.35.2 which will subsequently resolve this issue.  I expect this to be resolved prior to Beta.  For Lucid, the patch is already Fix Committed and undergoing the SRU process.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 595489 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "lvm snapshot causes deadlock in 2.6.35" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/595489
<ogasawara> Bug 605488 - Currently assigned to lag and under investigation.  It's proving difficult to reproduce at the moment.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 605488 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Maverick) "BUG: scheduling while atomic: mmcqd/46/0x00000002" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/605488
<ogasawara> Bug 605739 - Believed to be resolved in the latest linux-ti-omap4-2.6.34-903.7 kernel. Just awaiting verification before closing.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 605739 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Maverick) "BUG: Bad page state in process swapper pfn:94d23" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/605739
<ogasawara> Bug 554569 - The patch in question is already included in the latest Maverick kernel. I've posted a comment to the bug and marked it Fix Released.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 554569 in OEM Priority Project "[lucid] Blank screen with KMS on Thinkpad X201 with Arrandale (i915)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/554569
<ogasawara> As a general status, we've stabilized on upstream v2.6.35 final and will pull 2.6.35.y stable updates from here on out.  We've already rebased to upstream stable v2.6.35.1, ie linux-2.6.35-15.21, and I expect upstream stable v2.6.35.2 to land relatively soon.  We are above the trend line for our Beta release burndown chart but below the trend line overall.  The remaining Beta release work items are not release critical.
<ogasawara> Questions?
<robbiew> and we are waiting for the TB's decision on dropping SPARC and IA64?
<ogasawara> robbiew: yes, per ScottK's request.
<ScottK> It's on their agenda, so it seemed reasonable.
<ogasawara> robbiew: but I'm ready to pull the trigger :)
 * robbiew thought they already decided this via a vote on the mailing list...but maybe that was a vote to start the process
<robbiew> ScottK: ack...no worries
<robbiew> any questions for kernel?
<robbiew> thanks ogasawara
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Foundations
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations
<robbiew> cjwatson is out
<robbiew> and I don't think there's a fill-in
<robbiew> luckily I know the team lead VERY well...;)
<Daviey> O_o
<ScottK> Issue for foundations.  I think Bug #617359 needs cjwatson to have a look.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 617359 in gparted (Ubuntu) "Update gparted to 0.6 in ubuntu 10.10" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/617359
<robbiew> noted
<robbiew> [ACTION] Foundations needs to review bug #617359
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Foundations needs to review bug #617359
<jdstrand> I actually have something for foundations
<robbiew> go ahead...I'll try to cover
<jdstrand> I was going to ask the server team, but foundations is probably who will fix it
<jdstrand> basically, bug #563916 and the related bug #613562 are *really painful* for servers on lucid and presumably maverick
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 563916 in plymouth (Ubuntu Maverick) "[details.so] No prompt for [S]kip or [M]anual recovery on server boot" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/563916
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 613562 in upstart (Ubuntu) "various problems with fsck feedback and maintenance shell" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/613562
<Daviey> jdstrand, Thanks.. I'll make a note to track them.
<robbiew> jdstrand: thnx...I'll chase them down
<jdstrand> I really just wanted to bring those up since it affects server systems primarily, but also others where you can't use plymouth themes
<jdstrand> (well)
<jdstrand> robbiew: thanks
<jdstrand> it is kinda important to be able to interact with fsck, whether one uses plymouth themes or not
<robbiew> [ACTION] Foundations needs to follow-up on bug #563916 and #613562
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Foundations needs to follow-up on bug #563916 and #613562
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 563916 in plymouth (Ubuntu Maverick) "[details.so] No prompt for [S]kip or [M]anual recovery on server boot" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/563916
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 613562 in upstart (Ubuntu) "various problems with fsck feedback and maintenance shell" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/613562
<robbiew> any other work you folks want to assign me?
<robbiew> :P
 * jdstrand looks around
<robbiew> heh
<ScottK> We need to talk about Python too.
<robbiew> okay
<robbiew> talk away
<robbiew> :)
<ScottK> doko and barry want 2.7 as a supported (but not default) version in Maverick.
<ScottK> I agreed not to curl up in a ball and scream over it since barry promised to fix stuff.
<slangasek> jdstrand: AFAIK there's no situation in which you can't use a plymouth theme that will let you interact with fsck; this is entirely an artifact of the choice to disable 'splash' at boot time (and even then, hitting 'esc' is enough to pull up the regular theme)
<ScottK> We're now past FFe and it didn't get enabled as a supported version.
<slangasek> jdstrand: (I absolutely agree with you that this is a problematic bug, I just disagree with your characterization of it, which is a common one :)
<robbiew> hmm...fair point
<ScottK> So that needs to get decided and decided soon.
<robbiew> agreed
 * ScottK isn't screaming NO, but isn't so enamored of the idea that he's going to be the one to do the upload.
<ScottK> That's all I have on that.
<jdstrand> slangasek: if you see my comments in the second bug, I came across some situations that were a problem. but ultimately, I have no fsck output. it could be sitting there waiting for me to interact with it. I can't. Maybe I'll remember 'Esc' or 'M' or whatever, maybe not. it is a poor user experience
<robbiew> well...having shared the pain of past Python transitions....I understand ;)
<seb128> seems we should delay that to next cycle, will create lot of rebuilds, extra CD uses, etc
<robbiew> ack
<jdstrand> slangasek: the first time someone hits it, they are really mad, and probably will remember for next time. I thnk we can do better
<slangasek> jdstrand: yep, it is :(
<seb128> we seems to be running behind already and some teams lack staff to fill in gaps
<seb128> we should really focus on stabilizing now
<robbiew> [ACTION] robbiew to discuss postponing Python 2.7 as supported with barry and doko
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to discuss postponing Python 2.7 as supported with barry and doko
<ScottK> Note the lack of pushing back from me on seb128's points.
<slangasek> :-)
 * robbiew isn't pushing back either ;)
<robbiew> ANY thing else?
<robbiew> no?
<robbiew> good
<robbiew> :)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Server team status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team status
<Daviey> Hello o/
<Daviey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus
<Daviey> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<Daviey> The above two URL's describe the situation pretty well.  We are generally on track.  We have had 3 engineers at a conference in the last week (and we are now one extra down). We've made some excellent leaps forward in UEC, particualry with the help from upstream Eucalytpus.  The major bugs that were concerning us, seem to be fixed - pending further testing (QA & Daviey).
<Daviey> server-maverick-community - 0% complete - Might be a small blueprint, some progress - i believe waiting on a discussion with IS for feasibility.   Jorge to update some wiki/docs.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-server-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<Daviey> Bug 572317 - image-store does not support images without a ramdisk (niemeyer): might use a workaround instead, discussions ongoing.  Requires some input from Gustavo.
<Daviey> Bug 313812 - umount of ecryptfs does not automatically clear the keyring (can be mounted by root later) - currently stalled (https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ecryptfs-utils/+bug/313812/comments/24)
<Daviey> Bug 570870 - pxe boot doesn't work with kvm (Serge), Fix proposed - requires decision and testing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 572317 in image-store-proxy (Ubuntu Maverick) "image-store does not support images without a ramdisk" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/572317
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 313812 in eCryptfs "umount of ecryptfs does not automatically clear the keyring (can be mounted by root later)" [Medium,Triaged]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 313812 in eCryptfs "umount of ecryptfs does not automatically clear the keyring (can be mounted by root later)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/313812
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570870 in etherboot (Ubuntu Maverick) "pxe boot doesn't work with kvm" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570870
<Daviey> Those seem to be the crucial, and input from other team points.. The other items are pretty well covered on the MaverickReleaseStatus page.
<Daviey> Questions?
<robbiew> thanks Daviey
<Daviey> Some of the team have also been split between some out of platform work, and research.
<robbiew> ack
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Desktop team status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team status
<seb128> hey
<seb128> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<seb128> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<seb128> our beta trend is a bit behind on the graph but it's not true
<seb128> we have some server team items on there
<seb128> otherwise we got quite a lot done this week
<seb128> xorg transitioned to the new 1.9
<seb128> GNOME has been updated
<seb128> (now that GNOME decided to pull a stable 2.32)
<seb128> the gobject introspection stack has been updated
<seb128> didrocks put lot of efforts to get openoffice updated in maverick as well
<seb128>  
<seb128> specs are on shape
<seb128> we postpone the language selector changes to next cycle
<seb128> and the empathy ones
<seb128> software-center ui is feature complete for maverick
<seb128>  
<seb128> that's it
<seb128> questions?
<seb128> (I guess Riddell or ScottK will do a Kubuntu update)
 * ScottK looks at Riddell.
 * ScottK imagines Riddell went for a coffee and starts.
<ScottK> Got KDE 4.5.0 final in now.
<ScottK> Still blocked on armel by kdebindings.
<ScottK> We have yet to have an armel image this cycle, so this is getting to be a really big deal.
<ScottK> Riddell is working on updating the KDE Ubiquity front end to match the new design.
<ScottK> That's all.
<ogra> ScottK, hmm, i thought qt was fixed to not expose the qreal issues anymore
<ScottK> ogra: I don't think we can do that without breaking ABI.
<ogra> which is what upstream requested from us, but NCommander was blocking it
<ogra> and since he is the QT/KDE expert in our team ...
<ScottK> I don't have a strong opinion on how to solve it.  It's getting critical to get it solved one way or the other.
<ScottK> If we're going to have to rebuild all the Qt reverse build depends, we need to get started ...
<ScottK> robbiew: Could we have an action assigned with a deadline to someone who can solve this?
<Riddell> doh, missed my slot, sorry
<ogra> well, there are just two options, a) update QT as upstream asked for b) update *all* the kde patches we carry to work again
<ogra> NCommander, wanted to go for b) but then got some additional work to do that requires a lot of travelling
<ScottK> OK.  Pick one and let's move forward.
<ogra> i cant really judge how much time he will have for it but would actually like to leave it in his hands
<Riddell> why do KDE patches need to be updated?  rather I think b) is keep writing patches as problems occur
<Riddell> (we don't carry much in the way of patches, they go upstream)
<ScottK> So far kdebindings is the only known issue in Main.
<ogra> Riddell, afaik we have all these patches for qlist/qreal vs double already
<ScottK> ogra: Most of them have gone upstream.
<ogra> but since kdebindings ftbfs on such an issue something seems wrong with the patches
<ScottK> kdebindings is specially full of fail.
<ScottK> It's just a tough one.
<ogra> well, NCommander wrote the patches initially, no matter where they live, he is surely the best to update them
<ScottK> Right so it would be nice if his work prioritization was such that he could do that.
<ogra> i cant move any of his new items atm and he doesnt seem to be here to talk for himself
<ogra> lets take it to a mail discussion
<ogra> so we can move on
<slangasek> is there a summary of this issue written down somewhere?  We might find someone among the Linaro folks who would be willing to help work through it
<ScottK> Nothing to discuss.
<slangasek> but I wouldn't like to point them at "Qt+KDE" without an explanation of what needs solving
<ogra> slangasek, well, it was always in NCommanders hands and i doubt he wroite down what he did
<ogra> slangasek, asac has had lots of discussions witrh QT upstream though, he can give you some insight on the linaro side
<slangasek> ok
<ScottK> dyfet has also looked at it some.
<ogra> dyfet, couls you take that task and fix kdebindings ?
<ogra> *could even
<ScottK> The actual build failure in kdebindings seems a knock on effect of problems in sip4, but I don't know details.
<dyfet> ogra: yes, I recall it was a sip related/prototype issue
<ogra> dyfet, awesome
<ogra> ScottK, so dyfet is your man ;)
<ScottK> ogra: I don't control anyone's work schedule that can fix it.  I just want it done.
<ogra> ScottK, indeed
<robbiew> so what's the plan here
<ogra> robbiew, dyfet takes care
<robbiew> dyfet: is that correct?
<dyfet> yes
<ogra> probably together with someone from linaro if slangasek agrees
<slangasek> I don't control the work schedule of most of the people who would work on Qt, either :)
<slangasek> but if someone can define the problem for me, I can poke around
<ogra> right, asac can define the problem and both solutions, he knows even more details than me
<ogra> but in any case we have an owner of the task now, so i think we're good to move on
<robbiew> [ACTION] dyfet to solve all ScottK's problems :)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dyfet to solve all ScottK's problems :)
<ogra> lol
<ScottK> Ooh.
 * ScottK starts a list.
<dyfet> all??! ;)
<robbiew> anything else for Kubuntu?
<ScottK> Not from me.
<robbiew> questions for Desktop?
<seb128> I guess that's a no ;-)
<robbiew> seb128: btw, I mentioned the bluetooth issue to superm1...he noted that the plumbing stuff 18hrs ago
<robbiew> :/
<seb128> what 18 hours ago?
<seb128> you mean it's due to yesterday's update?
<seb128> we need somebody to maintain the bt userland stack
<seb128> I was talked to rickspencer3 earlier about that
<robbiew> agreed
<robbiew> neither Foundations nor Desktop has anyone to do it
<seb128> if you have a bug due to the update please assign to the desktop team
<seb128> we will deal with it
<robbiew> rickspencer3 and I know we need to sort this out
<seb128> ok, thanks
<robbiew> between the hiring we both have...there's no reason why we can't
<robbiew> [TOPIC] DX team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  DX team update
<tedg> Ah, that's me I guess :)
<seb128> hey tedg ;-)
<seb128> tedg, that's where you do a summary of what dx did this week and where your specs stand
<tedg> So there's this Unity thing you guys may have heard about, yeah, so we're doing that ;)
<robbiew> heh
<seb128> tedg, usually status is similar to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus
<seb128> not sure there is one this week
<seb128> dbarth has been sprinting and is travelling now
<tedg> I think overall we're in good shape.  Sound has started to work with MPRIS v2 which is probably going to need a feature freeze exception.
<tedg> But, the MPRIS v1 stuff is in good shape overall now.  Even if v2 is better.
<tedg> We've also update indicator-application to add some oft requested features, which required an lib bump, shouldn't be a big deal, but might require some rebuilds.
<tedg> I imagine most things will get rebuild by themselves in time anyway, but we should watch to make sure the old lib leaves.
<slangasek> (.oO "message passing really ionizes sound"?)
<tedg> On the appmenu front we've been working on performance and other clean up issues.
<tedg> The big bug there is the desktop menu which will require a patch to nautilus.
<tedg> I think we're at the point of determining whether indicator-datetime is in desktop, and I'm guessing that decision is a no?
<tedg> As we weren't able to complete the Evolution integration needed for the desktop release.
<robbiew> is there a blueprint for indicator-datetime?
<seb128> yeah, that's a "no"
<tedg> robbiew, Yeah, let me look for it.
<seb128> robbiew, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/dx-m-indicator-clock
<seb128> tedg, ^
<tedg> But, I think that's everything that's RT related.  Any questions.
<tedg> Thanks seb128
<robbiew> seb128: thnx
<robbiew> no questions?....moving along
 * robbiew skips UX as they don't send folks...but I've followed up via email on some 0% complete items
<robbiew> [TOPIC] ARM team status
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team status
<ogra> \o/
<ogra> Detailed status at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<ogra> ...
<ogra> Short summary:
<ogra>  * omap3/4 images for alpha 3 were released last week
<ogra>  * ubuntu-netbook-efl-default-settings is pending fixes to the default 2D session
<ogra>  * ongoing "normal" work on main ftbfs
<ogra>  * apparently a security kernel upgrade killed babbage boards, the issue was researched together with freescale and a fix was found which is about to be applied to a lucid SRU
<ogra>  * work on images is blocked due to Bug #616581 (oem-config does not start), research for the cause of the breakage is still going on
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 616581 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "oem-config fails to run" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/616581
<ogra>  * the resizing process of the preinstalled images was reworked and we gained a massive speedup of the resizing procedure (from 10-15min per 4G to about 2.5min overall)
<ogra> ...
<ogra> Beta status:
<ogra> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.10-beta.html
<ogra> ...
<ogra> Beta targeted specs:
<ogra> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-m-omap-edid-autodetection
<ogra> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-maverick-arm-improved-subarch-detection
<ogra> ...
<ogra> There are 10 Beta targeted bugs
<ogra> ...
<ogra> 2 Blocker Bugs:
<ogra> bug 605739
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 605739 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Maverick) "BUG: Bad page state in process swapper pfn:94d23" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/605739
<ogra> bug 616581
<ogra> any questions ?
<robbiew> I think ScottK already had his...heh
<robbiew> thnx ogra
<ogra> heh
<robbiew> [TOPIC] MOTU update
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU update
<ScottK> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ and http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/ have me slightly concerned.  It gets more sporting if we throw Python 2.7 in the mix.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ and http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/NBS/ have me slightly concerned.  It gets more sporting if we throw Python 2.7 in the mix.
<robbiew> heh...okay okay
<robbiew> we get it
<ScottK> There's a lot to do.  We'll see how it goes.
<robbiew> Python 2.7 will be postponed ;)
<ScottK> So far the community members of the release team are keeping up with the flow of FFe's OK.
<sistpoty|work> o/
<ScottK> Help is, of course, appreciated from other release team members as they are available.
<ScottK> sistpoty|work: Did you have anything else?
 * robbiew isn't officially part of the release team....but can help
<sistpoty|work> nah, just trying to get an overview after some ubuntu hiatus
<ScottK> WIth pitti and slangasek focused on other things, we might consider adding someone more.
<sistpoty|work> robbiew: that'd be excellent, I think we'll soonish be stuffed with workload on the FFe side
<slangasek> I have a few FFes to request on behalf of linaro, so I'll at least be putting in my share of work to be FFe-neutral :P
<sistpoty|work> heh
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> [ACTION] robbiew to work on growing the release team
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to work on growing the release team
 * ScottK waves to skat__.
<ScottK> I think that's it.
<ogra> she carries a long tail aroung it seems :)
<robbiew> heh...she will be helping for sure
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Derivatives
<MootBot> New Topic:  Derivatives
<robbiew> I got tired of tracking Linaro items...plus they do it themselves anyway :)
<robbiew> so just linked to their status in the agenda
<robbiew> [TOPIC] 10.04.1
<MootBot> New Topic:  10.04.1
<ScottK> robbiew: If we are going to keep a derivatives section, you might want to advertise it more widely.
<robbiew> WILL IT EVER COME!!!!! <sigh>
<slangasek> robbiew: oh, I didn't see any link to Linaro status in the email :)
<slangasek> (and therefore didn't know what page to update this week while JamieBennett was off, doh)
<robbiew> slangasek: as usual...t's in the wiki ;)
<ScottK> robbiew: You need to send slangasek on vacation without internet so he stops adding stuff.
<skat__> ScottK_: waves back... :)
<robbiew> ScottK: heh..I can't...doesn't work for me anymore ;)
<slangasek> "what do you mean you don't see it, it's right there in the fridg^Wwiki"
<robbiew> plus I need him to help with 10.04.1
<robbiew> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+bugs?field.milestone=27565
<slangasek> I'm working on getting right-sized live images today
<robbiew> \o/
<slangasek> required some seed->task changes, which I had to work out how to make happen
<slangasek> apparently by hacking cron.germinate to manually point it at lucid
<mathiaz> slangasek: so you'll be responsible for spinning isos?
<slangasek> the need for seed changes is because firefox, xulrunner, linux, and linux-firmware have all gotten bigger since 10.04
<slangasek> this is not a good trend
<ogra> only the right sized ones, not the left sized ones :P
<slangasek> mathiaz: yessir
<ScottK> Do we need to add a space reservation for respins in future LTS releases?
<slangasek> I think our SRU tracker should spit out a warning about significant size increases in packages in main
<ScottK> If so, someone should write that down so we remember in a year and a half.
<slangasek> so that we can figure out what the deal is /before/ we get to a week before point release
<jdstrand> unfortunately, the firefox ones were security updates
<slangasek> ScottK: IMHO the size increases are too unpredictable to make it worthwhile to reserve space
<robbiew> slangasek: who maintains the SRU tracker?
<slangasek> robbiew: "the release team" (primarily pitti in the past)
<jdstrand> (don't know if the SRU tracker would pick them up, presumably not)
<slangasek> sorry, "the SRU team" :)
<slangasek> jdstrand: dunno if it does
<ScottK> OK.
<slangasek> jdstrand: security updates> obviously - but why do security updates have to be bloated :)
<ScottK> Because it's Firefox.
<jdstrand> talk to mozilla
 * slangasek nods
<robbiew> [ACTION] robbiew to talk to pitti about if the SRU tracker can "spit out a warning about significant size increases in packages in main"
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to talk to pitti about if the SRU tracker can "spit out a warning about significant size increases in packages in main"
<jdstrand> it is going to be the same with chromium too, fwiw
<slangasek> anyway, I should get candidate images out by end of day today
<robbiew> slangasek: when's the last time we audited the packages in main?
<robbiew> are we still sure we NEED them all there?
<ScottK> robbiew: We did an audit of minimal/standard at the last UDS.
<slangasek> robbiew: not so long ago - and this isn't even about all packages in main, this is the stuff in the default install, which does get a good deal of regular scrutiny
<robbiew> ack
<jdstrand> the server team reviewed their bits at UDS too
<robbiew> can we make CDs just hold more data?
<robbiew> lol
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> but cjwatson didn't want to go that route ;)
<robbiew> heh
<slangasek> (the sizing we use for our CDs is for least-common-denominator CDs; most CDs and CD drives handle a good 4MB more, IIRC)
<robbiew> well..once Google and Verizon spread tiered internet around the world and we pay for Faster speeds...we can move to just DVDs
<slangasek> so, we'll have images, and I'll post them to the tracker, but I guess we won't really have anybody available for testing until Monday?
 * jdstrand chuckles thikning about firefox gobbling that up immediately
<marjo> slangasek: ack
<robbiew> marjo: come on...weekend work is fun! :)
<robbiew> okay..running over
<robbiew> anything else for 10.04.1
<marjo> robbiew: will test ISOs on the plane to oxford
<robbiew> marjo: thnx!
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:37.
<robbiew> whew!
<robbiew> thanks all
<slangasek> marjo: let us know how the wifi onboard handles the torrent
<slangasek> :-)
<robbiew> slangasek: I thought Till saved us some space with his compression work
<czajkowski> long meeting.
<slangasek> robbiew: for 10.10 only, yes?
<robbiew> bah!
<slangasek> regardless, we're still about 10MB oversized from where we really want to be
<slangasek> (i.e., we'd like to have a good set of langpacks present on the CD)
<robbiew> understand
 * ScottK wonders how much switching from firefox to abrowser would save.
<slangasek> abrowser is free as in free space
<sistpoty|work> the release name indicates yet a different browser though, that would save even more space :P
<barry> doko: hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-08-14
<Pici> hi
<nhandler> jussi, tsimpson, Pici, topyli:  Who is here for the meeting?
<topyli> o/
<nhandler> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 15:01. The chair is nhandler.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * Pici sits on nhandler 
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Support channel bug parsing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Support channel bug parsing
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/IRCteamproposal
<nhandler> Pici: Care to briefly summarize this item?
<Pici> I added this to the agenda firstly because kangaroo was so adamant about getting it enabled in #xubuntu
<Pici> Secondly because we had it disabled because the host that ubottu was on originally wasn't that powerful, which was the reason *I* thought that bug parsing was disabled. Now, we're on a beefier host.
<Pici> Feel free to correct me if I'm mistating things.
<nhandler> So is there currently any technical reason for having it disabled?
<topyli> i have no idea
<Pici> I can't really think of a good non-technical reason for keeping it disabled either.
<topyli> jussi called me earlier because he was uncertain if he can make the meeting and he definitely doesn't want it enabled
<nhandler> topyli: Did he give a reason for not wanting it enabled?
<Pici> Did he give a reason?
<jussi> IM here for like 2 seconds
<topyli> he doesn't think it's useful
<topyli> jussi: oh, just in time. why don't you want the bot parsing bugs?
<jussi> And the reason is that bugs in support channels add noise where there doesnt need to be noise.
<nhandler> jussi: and do you know if there are any technical reasons not to have the bug links enabled?
<jussi> nhandler: no technical reason, it waspart of the ubuntu is too noisy to be useful bug iirc.
<jussi> there isnt a really good reason to have them on in a support channel
<Pici> What about in #k and #x?
<Pici> They aren't as busy and I know that #k gets a little bit of bug related issues, due to backports and people trying to install new kde ppas.
<jussi> again, noise where no noise is really needed
<nhandler> I would be interested in seeing how many times in a day and how often they would get used if enabled
<nhandler> I find it hard to believe they would create more noise than say some of the more useless factoids we have
<topyli> kangaroo predicts 0 to 2 times a day in #xubuntu
<jussi> I dont think they are useful, but if you want them enabled then do so. I strongly suggest against it in #u.
<Pici> I'm a bit iffy on it getting enabled in #u as well.
<jussi> I need to go, but my vote is no to all core support chans
<nhandler> I personally would be interested in enabling them for a trial run and just seeing how much noise they actually create
<jussi> bye
<nhandler> Bye jussi
<topyli> jussi: have fun
<Pici> byas
<nhandler> Many times, if a bot doesn't respond with a link, I see other users simply go and copy/paste the link to the channel (creating the same amount of "noise")
<topyli> well users referring to a bug probably have the bug report open in their browser and might as well paste the link in the first place
<topyli> however, we're not changing users
<nhandler> topyli: Well, the bot also includes some additional useful info in the message (status, package, etc)
<nhandler> It would be a pain for a user to copy/paste all of that info
<topyli> yeah
<topyli> i liked the feature myself when it was still there
<Pici> I'm willing to give it a trial run in #x and #k
<nhandler> I also feel that the noise bug is less related to join/part messages and bot messages and more to the large number of users that are sending a large number of messages.
<guntbert> I advocate against bug reports in pure support channels - they are noisy by themselves and generate addittional noise/discussions
<nhandler> They generate noise, but what is the ratio of the bot's bug messages to the number of messages sent by normal users? My guess is a very small percent (and definitely less than the percent of messages made up by factoids)
<nhandler> Alright, let's take this one step at a time. Are there any objections to trialing it in #k and #x for a few weeks?
<topyli> i've been failing to form an opinion. maybe a trial period would be smart
<guntbert> nhandler: its hard even now to prevent the start of off topic discussions - with those bug messages there might be still more effort needed to prevent needless dicussions
<topyli> guntbert: sure, they can bring up discussions like "why is this bug still not fixed? developers suck"
<Pici> argh. I keep typing my command to get to this channel in other ones.
<guntbert> topyli: exactly
<topyli> nhandler: how do we determine success and failure in the trial, if taken?
<nhandler> Well, right now, this is just pure speculation. Until we actually trial it, there is no way to know what type of discussion the bug links will cause. But I find it hard to believe that the discussion will be much different than people who simply post bug numbers
<Pici> I don't think that the bot parsing the bug is going to encourage people to do that any more than they already do.
<guntbert> Pici: :) it seems you have a lot of channels open
<nhandler> topyli: Well, the "noise" complaint can be looked at based on the numbers that we can pull from the logs
<nhandler> The "off topic discussion" issue will be harder, but we can still look through the logs for the types of discussions that took place around the time a bug link was posted
<topyli> that will tell us noise directly from the bot. would have to check how much offtopic discussion it generates
<topyli> yeah
<guntbert> nhandler: right now nearly nobody posts bug numbers in #ubuntu - I don't know about #xu and #ku though
<nhandler> If the results look promising, we could expand the trial to #u. If not, we can disable it in #k and #x
<nhandler> guntbert: Well, if not many people post them, then having it enabled wouldn't do much harm ;)
<guntbert> nhandler: as there are several people who jump on anything - I expect that number to increase ...
<topyli> i can agree to the trial. if it seems harmful, we'll just disable it again and try to keep the press out
<Pici> Shall we vote?
<Pici> On it being enabled for a trail run in #xubuntu and #kubuntu ?
<nhandler> [vote] Enable bug info retrieval in #xubuntu and #kubuntu for a trial period and re-evaluate the issue at our next meeting. If sucessful, expand trial to #ubuntu. If not, disable feature in #k and #x.
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Enable bug info retrieval in #xubuntu and #kubuntu for a trial period and re-evaluate the issue at our next meeting. If sucessful, expand trial to #ubuntu. If not, disable feature in #k and #x..
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nhandler> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nhandler. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<topyli> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from topyli. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Pici> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Pici. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<nhandler> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<nhandler> [AGREED] Enable bug info retrieval in #xubuntu and #kubuntu for a trial period and re-evaluate the issue at our next meeting. If sucessful, expand
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Enable bug info retrieval in #xubuntu and #kubuntu for a trial period and re-evaluate the issue at our next meeting. If sucessful, expand
<nhandler>                                trial to #ubuntu. If not, disable feature in #k and #x.
<nhandler> Does someone want to take the action to look through the logs (at least for the noise) item and try to analyze it a bit?
<topyli> if two weeks is enough, we can check on this  in the next meeting
<Pici> I think it will be.
<Pici> Especially because we're getting 10.04.1 this week.
<nhandler> And does someone want to take the [ACTION] to actually enable the bug info in those channels?
<Pici> I'm not sure if my bot access is working enough to do that
<topyli> i could try grepping the logs before the next meeting
<nhandler> Pici: I thought tsimpson gave us access. But if not, you could poke people with access (who know more about the bots than me) to get it enabled
<Pici> I have a feeling our regulars will give us enough feedback.
<nhandler> [ACTION] topyli to grep the logs of #k and #x before the next meeting to try and analyze the effect of having the bug info enabled
<MootBot> ACTION received:  topyli to grep the logs of #k and #x before the next meeting to try and analyze the effect of having the bug info enabled
<nhandler> Pici: Probably
<nhandler> Pici: But can you take the action to either directly or indirectly get the bug info enabled?
<Pici> nhandler: Sure thing.
<nhandler> Thanks a lot
<nhandler> [ACTION] Pici to get bug info enabled in #kubuntu and #xubuntu
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Pici to get bug info enabled in #kubuntu and #xubuntu
<nhandler> Anything more for this item?
<Pici> I'd also like to bring up another issue that I didn't put on the agenda.
<nhandler> Pici: What is the issue?
<Pici> About enabling bot features without discussion.
<nhandler> [TOPIC] Enabling Bot Features without discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Enabling Bot Features without discussion
<nhandler> Pici: Go ahead
<Pici> I think that this recent 'announce floodbot bans' thing in #ubuntu-ops should have been discussed on at least the mailing list, and possibly during an IRCC meeting.
<Pici> s/the mailing list/on the mailing list/
<nhandler> Well, I think certain things are safe to enable/implement without discussion, noisy channel notifications like that should have been brought up
<topyli> this one has been annoying some ops
<Pici> I think that any new features should be announced on the mailing list.
<Pici> (it has been annoying me)
<nhandler> I don't know about "any", but any visible/big changes or changes that will affect the workflow of OPs should probably be announced there
<topyli> not a lot of work to do that
<topyli> well that probably doesn't make sense. read: doing that is not a lot of work :)
<nhandler> But I guess the question is, if someone voices an objection on the ML, should that mean that they don't go ahead with the feature?
<Pici> I think it warrants discussion.
<nhandler> Agreed. Since ubottu has been granted an exception to our no-bot policy, it should at least behave in a way we find acceptable.
<Flannel> The current feature in question, can it simply be changed to normal channel messages in -ops-monitor instead?  That'd keep the utility of the feature, without the pings
<nhandler> Flannel: From a technical point of view, I would think that would be trivial to do
<topyli> maybe it would be useful for the bot devel team to communicate more on the ML, tell us what's cooking
<Flannel> nhandler: From a non-technical standpoint, would it diminish the feature in any way?
<Pici> Thats a reasonable expectation
<nhandler> Flannel: It would make it less noticable (which can be seen as a bad ting)
<Flannel> topyli: Personally, I'd love to hear more about what awesome features are being added and I can look forward to.
<topyli> likewise
<rww> or help implement, even
<Pici> I think it would also encourage people to suggest new ideas.
<nhandler> Does someone want to take the action of contacting the bot devs about this? I think we are all in agreement that a bit more communication would be nice.
<topyli> do they have a mailing list?
<nhandler> topyli: You could use the 'Contact this Team' feature on LP. I'm not sure if they have a ML
<Pici> They have a channel
<Pici> More than one.
<topyli> yep
<nhandler> So any volunteers for the action?
<topyli> i can do it
<nhandler> [ACTION] topyli to contact the bot devel team about better communication
<MootBot> ACTION received:  topyli to contact the bot devel team about better communication
<nhandler> Any more topics to discuss?
<topyli> bshellz maybe
<topyli> they have a blanket ban on #ubuntu, #x, #k at least, it's used for ban evasion regularly
<topyli> or so i've been told
<nhandler> [TOPIC] bshellz
<MootBot> New Topic:  bshellz
<Pici> I think ikonia knows the most about that
<topyli> recently a blanket ban has been requested for -server as well
<topyli> ikonia yes
<nhandler> I haven't been that on-top-of this issue. Any estimates on the number of legit users that use bshellz vs. the number of evaders?
<rww> I think a lot of the legit users moved off it when it was k-lined completely for a while. I know I did.
<nhandler> I don't like blanket bans in general, but I would be interested in knowing if it would be easier to blacklist evaders or to whitelist legit users (+e)
<topyli> i'm under the impression that their admins are not keen on "policing" their users
<nhandler> Well, it loos like ikonia is /away right now. Do you think this might be a good topic for the ML? That way, we could get info from other OPs and users before making a decision
<Pici> I think so.
<topyli> discussing on ML might be a good idea, blanket bans are not to my liking either really
<topyli> we could poke ikonia to start the discussion maybe?
<nhandler> If it turns out that most bshellz users are problem makers, we could look into setting up a process to grant +e to legit users (we could always revoke that if they misbehave and need to be banned)
<nhandler> topyli: Probably best. That way, the initial message will contain some real/useful info
<topyli> yes
<nhandler> Someone want to poke him? If not, I could
<nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to poke ikonia about sending an email to the ML about the bshellz issue
<Pici> I could poke him, but probably not until monday morning.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to poke ikonia about sending an email to the ML about the bshellz issue
<nhandler> Pici: That is ok. I'll take care of it (I realized I didn't take any actions yet)
<nhandler> Any more items?
<Pici> Not from me.
<nhandler> topyli: ?
<topyli> nope
<nhandler> Alright, anyone want to take care of the post-meeting tasks? If not, I'll get those too.
<Pici> Thanks for volunteering ;)
<topyli> :)
<nhandler> [ACTION] nhandler to do post-meeting tasks
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nhandler to do post-meeting tasks
<nhandler> Thanks for coming everyone
<nhandler> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:00.
<Pici> Have a good weekend everyone :)
<topyli> midnight!
<topyli> thanks guys, good meeting
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-08-08
<kees> \o
<micahg> o/
<mdeslaur> hello!
 * sbeattie waves
<jjohansen> \o
<kees> okay, who's running this? :)
<mdeslaur> kees: I thought you were :)
<kees> i am now!
<kees> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:16. The chair is kees.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<kees> [topic] prior action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  prior action review
<kees> doesn't seem like there were any
<kees> [topic] Weekly stand-up report
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly stand-up report
<kees> I was at blackhat/defcon last week. I'll be writing up my notes. this week I'm going to try to catch up on email and see what time is left for work items. *sob*
<kees> mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I still need to test the foomatic packages I built last week
<mdeslaur> and I'm working on an embargoed issue for tomorrow
<mdeslaur> and want to update virtinst and virt-manager in oneiric before FF
<mdeslaur> I've pretty much caught up the dev release CVEs out-of-syncs
<mdeslaur> and besides that, I'll be going down the list.
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<kees> mdeslaur: nice, I saw the email about the dev CVE syncs.
<mdeslaur> kees: email?
<mdeslaur> kees: oh, right
<kees> mdeslaur: the one asking for clarification on one of them
<kees> yeah
<sbeattie> I'm on holiday for the rest of the week starting tomorrow.
<sbeattie> I'll be spending today sorting out stuff before I go.
<sbeattie> I'm supposedly on triage this week, can someone cover that for me?
<sbeattie> Otherwise, that's it for me.
<kees> sbeattie: yeah, if mdeslaur doesn't keep stealing the cve runs, I can do some too this week :)
<sbeattie> heh
<kees> micahg: you're up :)
<micahg> chromium update going out today, I'll be preparing Mozilla updates to go out next week and webkit to fill in the free time
<micahg> that's it for me
<kees> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
<MootBot> New Topic:  Highlighted packages
<kees> one moment...
<kees> libsmi: CVE-2010-2891
<kees> udev: CVE-2011-0640
<kees> wbxml2: CVE-2009-3560 CVE-2009-3720
<kees> tsclient: CVE-2011-0900 CVE-2011-0901
<kees> aircrack-ng: CVE-2010-1159
<kees> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Miscellaneous and Questions
<kees> I have a list of things to build with PIE... *cough*
 * kees stares at nelhage :)
<bliss> good thing there's no such thing as a VM escape
 * nelhage looks innocent
<kees> anything else people want to bring up?
<micahg> I forgot to mention that I'm off tomorrow
<kees> micahg: cool
<kees> okay, that's a wrap then. thanks everyone!
<jjohansen> heh I am off today - wednesday
<kees> jjohansen: heh :)
<mdeslaur> thanks kees
<kees> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:32.
<micahg> thanks kees
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-08-09
<robbiew> are we meeting?
<zul> i thought we canceled it
 * Daviey thought this aswell
<SpamapS> the nay's have it. :)
<zul> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:39. The chair is zul.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<zul> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:39.
<zul> there you go
<bjf> ##
<bjf> ## Kernel team meeting in 10 minutes
<bjf> ##
 * Chipaca sends big hugs to the kernel team, because it's been awesome, always
<apw> o/
<herton> \o
<sforshee> o/
<bjf> #
<bjf> # lets "get 'er done"!
<bjf> #
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bjf> ##
<bjf> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<bjf> ##
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<bjf> # Meeting Etiquette
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #       'o/' indicates you have something you'd like to add (wait until you are recognized)
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> === Release Metrics ===
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<ogasawara> ==== oneiric nominated bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 30 linux kernel bugs (up 10)
<ogasawara> ==== Ubuntu ubuntu-11.10-beta-1 bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 2 linux kernel bugs (up 2)
<ogasawara> ==== <series>-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 19 natty linux kernel bugs (down 2)
<ogasawara>  * 3 maverick linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 7 lucid linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === Incoming Bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 89 oneiric bugs (up 14)
<ogasawara>  * 1492 natty bugs (up 26)
<ogasawara>  * 1089 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 941 lucid bugs (up 8)
<ogasawara>  * 31 hardy bugs (down 1)
<ogasawara> === Regressions ===
<ogasawara> ==== regression-update bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 13 natty bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 41 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 75 lucid bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-release bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 1 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 439 natty bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 240 maverick bugs (down 1)
<ogasawara>  * 214 lucid bugs (up 3)
<ogasawara>  * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-proposed bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 natty bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 1 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Oneiric Delta Review (ogasawara)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Oneiric Delta Review (ogasawara)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review
<ogasawara> lag, rsalveti: you have work items to review your set of Ubuntu patches.  See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Specs/KernelOneiricUbuntuDeltaReview .  Note, these are the only remaining work items for this blueprint.
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Last week we uploaded the 3.0.0-8.10 Ubuntu kernel.  This was rebased onto upstream stable v3.0.1.  We'll continue to follow upstream stable v3.0.x as we move towards release.  I'd also like to note that v3.1-rc1 came out yesterday.  As such, I'm going to begin opening the P-series repo.  Lastly, some upcoming dates to keep in mind are:
<ogasawara>  * Aug 11 - Feature Freeze (tomorrow)
<ogasawara>  * Sept 1 - Beta 1 (~3 weeks)
<ogasawara>  * Sept 15 - Kernel Freeze (~5 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw> == 2011-08-09 (weekly) ==
<apw> === CVE Metrics ===
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~apw/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~apw/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||    6 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||    3 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||    3 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||    3 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    2      ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    3 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||    3 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    3 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    3 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||    3 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||    3 (-2) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    2      ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||    3 (-1) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||    3 (-2) ||
<apw> ..
<bjf> apw, the link you give is no longer correct?
<apw> poop thanks ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Stable Kernel Team (sconklin)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Stable Kernel Team (sconklin)
<sconklin> ||== Status of kernels ==
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || This is kernel prep week. Kernel prep will probably slip for any kernels which
<sconklin> || do not complete testing and make release this week. I have requested estimates for testing
<sconklin> || completion but have not received them, so I can't make any predictions about when
<sconklin> || we will begin verification for most of the kernels for the next cycle.
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || We have had problems with innacurate updates to tracking bugs. In one case a comment
<sconklin> || was added stating that certification testing had begun when it had not. It was only
<sconklin> || determined six days later that testing had not begun.
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Kernel status for each series is as follows:
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || * Released
<sconklin> ||   We're working through issues around pre-mature publishing of hardy kernel to -updates
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ||=== Hardy ===
<sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/812360|Hardy Tracking Bug]]
<sconklin> || * Was released in error after my status mail incorrectly said it was ready for release.
<sconklin> ||
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 812360 in linux (Ubuntu) "linux: 2.6.24-29.92 -proposed tracker" [Medium,Fix released]
<sconklin> ||=== Lucid ===
<sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/818196|Lucid Tracking Bug]]
<sconklin> || * Awaiting regression testing
<sconklin> ||
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 818196 in linux (Ubuntu Lucid) "linux: 2.6.32-33.72 -proposed tracker" [Medium,In progress]
<sconklin> ||=== Maverick ===
<sconklin> || * Previous version was published, prep has begun for next cycle
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ||=== Natty ===
<sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/818175|Natty Tracking Bug]]
<sconklin> || * Awaiting regression and certification testing
<sconklin> ||
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 818175 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "linux: 2.6.38-11.48 -proposed tracker" [Medium,In progress]
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Current Kernel versions are available here: http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/versions.html
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:05.
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-08-10
* jussi changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Mootbot is currently broken :(
<IdleOne> :(
<IdleOne> jussi is to fast for me
* AlanBell changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology is the new Mootbot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
<AlanBell> so we have meetingology as an emergency replacement mootbot
<IdleOne> thanks AlanBell
<AlanBell> it is running on a server on a slightly dodgy connection and it has some bugs still, but does have some awesome new commands
<AlanBell> you can do [topic] or #topic for all commands, they are aliases
<AlanBell> you can specify voters, so "#voters nick1 nick2 nick3"
<AlanBell> for council meetings etc
<AlanBell> you can make a second chair with #chair otherperson
<AlanBell> private votes don't work
<IdleOne> all documented in the link in topic no doubt
<AlanBell> you can't put other stuff after a vote, so you can do "+1" but not "+1 awesome!! woot!"
<AlanBell> IdleOne: most of it is, just thought I would leave some notes in channel for the benefit of the chair of the next meeting
<AlanBell> and feel free to ping me if it breaks
<IdleOne> AlanBell: you rock dude :)
<AlanBell> oh, and patches welcome :)
<AlanBell> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bots/ubuntu-bots/meetingology
 * stgraber waves
 * slangasek waves
<mvo> hello
<barry> howdy
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Aug 10 15:02:44 2011 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<meetingology> TOPIC: lightning round
<slangasek> ... meetingology? that's new
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jhunt mvo ev bdmurray slangasek)
<slangasek> mvo stgraber bdmurray barry cjwatson doko ev slangasek jhunt
<barry> did mootbot get a name change?
<mvo> meeeh, plese reshuffle, not ready yet
 * mvo types like crazy
<bdmurray> I can go
<slangasek> bdmurray: go for it
<bdmurray> email to the kernel team mailing list regarding the apport-kerneloops work I've done for them, kerneloops update to prevent reporting of NETDEV WATCHDOG errors
<bdmurray> ubiquity installer-crash tagging script changes to catch python: and not just plugininstall.py:, bug triage of ubiquity installer-crash bug reports, bug triage of iso-testing bug reports about foundations packages
<bdmurray> wrote a ubiquity bug pattern for bug 743359 regarding apt locking, bug pattern writing for package installation bug 545790, investigation into aptdaemon bug    659438, email to the foundations team regarding our bugs with patches, modifications to package bugs most recently mailing list query to clarify period
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 743359 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Installer: LockFailedException: Failed to lock /target/var/cache/apt/archives/lock" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/743359
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 545790 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "package PACKAGE failed to install/upgrade: error writing to '<standard output>': Success" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/545790
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 659438 in apt (Ubuntu) "Installation/Removal fails because of package which could not be located (failure in apt.Cache.required_download)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/659438
<bdmurray> cron job email setup of recent foundations package bugs to myself, investigation into a structural subscribers report in Launchpad - can't find one, writing    bug report for team structurally subscribed bug tasks matching a criteria
<bdmurray> bzr branch modifying ubiquity's +filebug info to be ubuntu-bug ubiquity, aptdaemon SRU for bug 797847 regarding checking if apport is disabled on natty
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 797847 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Natty) "aptdaemon doesn't check if apport is enabled" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/797847
<bdmurray> testing code to create a duplicatesignature tag for package installation failures, testing duplicatesignature tag with apport and search existing terminallog   files for duplicates, reviewing of duplicate signatures and triaging of bugs
<bdmurray> team membership querying for jcastro and the community team
 * mvo is ready now
 * bdmurray is done now
<mvo> apt: SoC, work on apt-chris, trying to gather more info about ssl connection failure https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/software-center/+question/166914, debug/fix performance regression due to cache loader, upload new 0.8.16~exp5ubuntu1 and its reverse dependencies (ABI break), add hashsum regression test, ensure that the hashes are checked for unsinged release files too (debian Bug#636314), work on debdelta integration (lp:~mvo/a
<mvo> pt/apt-ishan )
<mvo> update-notifier: work on synpatic-less version, uploaded
<mvo> command-not-found: merge fixes from the new version and upload, thanks to zyga
<mvo> update-manager: review/merge lp:~evfool/update-manager/fix817785, debug/fix #808738 crash in u-m
<mvo> software-center: add show-exhibit functionatlity and add featured exhibit, review/merge lp:~mmcg069/software-center/back-forward-nav-button-fix, work on lp:~mvo/software-center/sortable-app-tree-view, lp:~mmcg069/software-center/themeable-globalpane, review/merge lp:~gary-lasker/software-center/list-view-stars-gtk3, phonecall about exhibits/html, create a bunch of tracking bugs for python3 packages that are missing for s-c, py3 compat fixes
<mvo> pango: debug/fix pango annotation issue, push upstream, cherry pick git, upload new version, review/merge/fix lp:~mmcg069/software-center/top-rated-subcats, add LocaleAwareWebview that sends language-header info, pyflakes fixes, improve testrunner, fix crash in channels changed code, code cleanup, hunt 100% cpu usage issue (spawn helper bug)
<mvo> app-install-data: work on reducing the icon data size (rally good results)
<mvo> EOF
<stgraber> sorry, I still need a minute to finish mine :(
<jp_Hranice> Whot is wrong Ubuntu ISO testing tracker ? Some ISOs are not longer avaible. :-(
<slangasek> mvo: what's "apt-chris"?
<mvo> its a summer of code branch that contains improvements to the ordering code
<cjwatson> jp_Hranice: this is a meeting channel with a team meeting in progress; please try #ubuntu-testing
<mvo> its looks really good, but that is a delicate part of the code, so I'm working on some tests with the new code (i.e. lucid->maverick, lucid->oneiric etc) to ensure there are no regressions
<jp_Hranice> cjwatson: Thank you
<slangasek> mvo: aha, ok
<barry> stgraber: do you want me to go next?
<stgraber> barry: please
<barry> was on vacation last week; this week: bug 788514 (pyicu, pycurl, liblouis, python-inotify, pywebkitgtk, ibus-anthy, python-smbc sponsored, python-magic sponsored, pyxdg sponsored, vte merge proposed), bug 822844 (review python-keyring sync request); argparse sync advice. todo: complete 788514 work, look at sphinx sync, lucid ppa.  done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 788514 in Ubuntu Oneiric "python packages on the CDs not using dh_python2" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788514
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 822844 in python-keyring (Ubuntu) "Sync python-keyring 0.6.2-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/822844
<stgraber> ok, I'm ready now :)
<stgraber> Last week:
<stgraber>  - Did some multipath install testing on Oneiric
<stgraber>  - Got tpm-tools to build on Oneiric
<stgraber> Working on Arkose and LXC this week:
<stgraber>  - Got everything to use gettext
<stgraber>  - Dropped old socket proxy and replaced by new dbus proxy
<stgraber>  - Switched to a generic device node passthrough (instead of video only)
<stgraber>  - Got LXC upstream to fix some console initialization issues affecting arkose
<stgraber>  - Dropped a lot of unused device access rights given by default by arkose
<stgraber>  - Improved the command line interface a bit
<stgraber> Remaining (before feature freeze):
<stgraber>  - Update packaging and build process to support gettext and the dbus code
<stgraber>  - UI rewrite
<stgraber>  - Network access restriction (firewalling)
<stgraber>  - Get DBUS filtering in the wrapper
<stgraber>  - Extend arkose-cli (merge a patch from a contributor)
<stgraber>  - Write some missing manpages
<stgraber> Other stuff:
<stgraber>  - Got edubuntu-live to finally show a translated installer
<stgraber>  - Trying to fix weblive in software-center (broken at the moment)
<stgraber> (done)
<stgraber> oh, and I'll be in Vancouver next week for Linuxcon
<bdmurray> oh right I'll be in London next week for a defect analyst sprint
<cjwatson> ah yes, it's my turn
<cjwatson> Last two weeks were DebConf (excellent!) then holiday, so I'm rather behind generally and have been trying to catch up.
<cjwatson> This week:
<cjwatson>  * Converted all my mail to offlineimap+notmuch.  The initial sync has eaten virtually all my laptop's I/O for several days straight and notmuch hasn't quite finished yet, but I should be able to keep up with e-mail much better at conferences now.  offlineimap is *really* nice.
<cjwatson>  * Lots of archive admin trying to clear queues in time for feature freeze: syncs, MIRs, etc.
<cjwatson>  * Landed IPv6 support in d-i.  As a bonus, Gaudenz got WPA support done at DebConf, so I got to land that too.
<cjwatson>  * Landed USB seeds for Allison; should be able to work on converting the DVD images over to those later this week.
<cjwatson>  * Merged new version of ntfs-3g to try to keep down the size of the lynch mob come Oneiric.
<cjwatson>  * About to start putting a syslinux-themes-ubuntu package together, which is blocking the language-specific image work.  I think this is my last urgent thing for feature freeze. *cough*
<cjwatson> --
<slangasek> wpa - whoo
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - Linaro Connect last week
<doko> - one last round of toolchain updates
<doko> - some bug triage for GCC and binutils
<doko> - merged a finally working-on-multiarch eglibc version, after *some* testing
<doko> - JamVM updates for OpenJDK 6 and 7
<doko> - Once these updates are in the archive, I'll start a test rebuild.
<slangasek> cjwatson: is notmuch making you super-productive?
<doko> --
<cjwatson> slangasek: I'm just using it for cross-mailbox search, not in the ueber james_w mode
<ev> - Trying to get a build of ubiquity out. Was originally blocked by pbuilder
<ev>   issues, now am in a mess of silly build-dependencies for the unit tests.
<ev> - Fixed Glade not including its pythonglade module.
<ev> - Fixed some more issues around Wubi firstboot.
<ev> - Wrote a webcam module in C, binding to gstreamer and udev, after my
<ev>   adventures in PyGI drove me to madness. Was originally going to use Cheese,
<ev>   but they're all about the GNOME Shell now.
<ev> - Integrated the wireless networking module into the installer.
<mvo> should I ditch mutt in favor of notmutch?
<cjwatson> right now it's killing my I/O so no :-)
<ev> - Finally landed the ubiquity PyGI branch.
<ev> - Gtk3 CSS hell.
<ev> - Trying to get mkswap in Windows without a cygwin dependency nightmare.
<ev> - Investigated doing Wubi migration from the Windows side. Need to user test
<ev>   to find out whether doing the migration from Windows or a Live CD provides
<ev>   the most benefit.
<ev> - Merged some ubiquity branches.
<ev> TODO:
<ev> - libtimezonemap MIR.
<ev> - Split camerabin2 into its own package and write a MIR.
<ev> (done)
<cjwatson> mvo: I'm continuing to use mutt, and just using notmuch for search; Stefano Zacchiroli's blog has some tidbits on using them in tandem
<barry> cjwatson: that's one thing that mail.app has that i've not seen anywhere else (cross mailbox search)
<mvo> thanks cjwatson, I give it a go
<cjwatson> barry: there are several command-line indexers around that provide it - notmuch is just the current leader
<cjwatson> webcam/cheese> ah yes, I saw that you'd dropped the cheese module, glad to see you found a small replacement
<cjwatson> well found/wrote :-)
<ev> :)
<slangasek> "dropped the cheese module" - wait, there was a webcam in ubiquity?
<barry> ev: i can probably fire up a windows vm if you need some additional testing
<ev> slangasek: we'd like to be able to take a user photo
<cjwatson> the cheese module was built but not actually glued in
<slangasek> ev: ah
<ev> indeed
<barry> cjwatson: cool, gotta put that on the list!
<ev> barry: thanks, but with the MSDN license I've got more copies of windows than I'll ever know what to do with
<ev> yay
<barry> ev: just be sure it works on win95
<ev> barry: I'm half-tempted to throw XP to the wolves
<cjwatson> ubiquity/pygi> excellent, I know that's been a long road
<slangasek> so it's not a case of ev trying to be that guy in Florida who was helping college girls with their laptops and causing their cameras to mysteriously drain their batteries ;)
<ev> one covered in broken glass and rusty nails, eys
<ev> yes*
<ev> wait what?
<ev> ohhh
<ev> a bit slow on the uptake, I am
<slangasek> ah, seems to be my go
<slangasek> DebConf, upstart sprint, and sick last week; now playing catch-up
<slangasek> took lots of drugs in order to help with a3 crank-turning last week
<slangasek> have a new plan of attack on upstart in Debian that avoids the all-or-nothing trap
<slangasek> need to do some work on multiarch in Debian; eglibc is in an unhappy state... fortunately (or unfortunately) got myself added as an eglibc package committer during DebConf
<slangasek> helped with dh_python2 migration
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> fixed bug #816740 in libpeas so totem runs on amd64
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 816740 in Totem "totem crashed with SIGSEGV in g_type_name()" [Critical,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/816740
<doko> -16 looks almost ine
<barry> slangasek: what got decided for upstart? (is there a link or mlist thread i can catch up on?)
<slangasek> barry: no mlist discussion about the Debian strategy, the critical path there is single-threaded still unfortunately
<slangasek> I need to hack startpar to understand upstart jobs :P
 * barry nods
<slangasek> doko: yep, though we still need the multiarch-compat package
<doko> ahh, yes
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<meetingology> TOPIC: AOB
<slangasek> everyone nervous about Feature Freeze?
<cjwatson> yes
<bdmurray> no talking about bugs?
<barry> always :)
<ev> feature what now? I've just been running on the assumption that I can keep uploading whatever I want until release day.
<cjwatson> but then I always am :)
<ev> Is that not the case?
 * cjwatson aims a loaded trout at ev
<ev> :)
<slangasek> bdmurray: whoops, sorry, I'm out of practice
<mvo> feature freeze> YES
<slangasek> ev: hmm, we may need to revisit this working-from-the-office situation with you... picking up some habits? :)
<mvo> lol
<slangasek> any other other business... or shall we move on (back) to bugs? :)
<ev> slangasek: lol
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<meetingology> TOPIC: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: over to you!
<bdmurray> right so a few bugs I ran across in the past week are bug 386763
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 386763 in defoma (Ubuntu) "[Master] font package failed to install/upgrade: post-installation exit status 1 - /var/lib/defoma/locked exists." [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/386763
<bdmurray> I was finding a few duplicates of that yesterday and there may be more hiding
<slangasek> hnngh defoma
<bdmurray> It only has about 40 though so perhaps that should be a someday later bug
<slangasek> are those being reported against recent releases?
<slangasek> the longterm plan here is to shoot defoma in the head
<slangasek> and there was work at DebCamp on getting the last font packages migrated away from it
<bdmurray> DistroRelease [5] Ubuntu 8.10: 352328, 362808, 370130, 371811, 376776 [5] Ubuntu 9.10: 463024, 537437, 549173, 549778, 560156 [2] Ubuntu 11.04: 772701, 795360 [12] Ubuntu 10.04: 544359, 651175, 654259, 738708, 769872, 780796, 789639, 789699, 790299, 796504, 796505, 796506
<bdmurray> so a couple of 11.04 duplicates
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> gah, it looks like the ubuntu font packages are using defoma even
<bdmurray> heh
<cjwatson> defoma> iirc slows down dvd installation by not being triggerised ...
<slangasek> right, so I'm pretty sure no one's going to work on fixing defoma, but maybe we can speed up its demise
<bdmurray> I'll see if I find any more duplicates but imagine the defoma bug isn't that important
<bdmurray> bug 545790 has nearly 300 duplicates
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 545790 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "package PACKAGE failed to install/upgrade: error writing to '<standard output>': Success" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/545790
<mvo> bdmurray: hm, any clues on what is running dpkg when this is happening? aptdaemon? packagekit?
<bdmurray> mvo: oh we can look into the history log attachment now right?
<mvo> bdmurray: yeah
 * mvo looks at a recent one
<bdmurray> mvo: hrm neither of the 11.10 dupilcates have the history log
<bdmurray> duplicates 789291 and 793795 are from oneiric
<bdmurray> mvo: so I guess we should ask for people to provide the history.log from when the experienced the error?
<mvo> yeah, that would be good to get additional clues whats going on there
<bdmurray> okay got it
<bdmurray> bug 702283 turned up during iso testing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 702283 in usb-creator (Ubuntu) "usb-creator doesn't create EFI-bootable USB sticks" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/702283
<bdmurray> ev: do you have any thoughts about that one?
<slangasek> do we have full-on hybrid ISOs these days?  Does the amd64+mac image work as a hybrid?
<ev> unless we went with something like mjg59's super hybrid beast, that wouldn't buy us EFI, no?
<cjwatson> I think we *need* to go with something like mjg59's super hybrid beast
<cjwatson> but he's doing the work in isohybrid and we'll need it in xorriso
<cjwatson> amd64+mac ought to work as hybrid but that's EFI-less
<cjwatson> mjg59's work should let us get rid of amd64+mac, I believe
<cjwatson> ... "as long as you're willing to put up with three partition tables and an x86 boot sector that doubles as an APM header"
 * slangasek grins
<ev> heh and a billion boot options to choose from on recent Mac hardware
<stgraber> can't see anything wrong with that ;)
<cjwatson> haven't got round to talking with xorriso upstream yet though
<bdmurray> so it sounds like there is a lot of work needed there
<slangasek> yep
<cjwatson> it's certainly not trivial, though there is also a lot of reason to do the wowrk
<cjwatson> *work
<bdmurray> slangasek: regarding bug 822542 I thought there was a plymouth bug regarding nothing being displayed?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 822542 in casper (Ubuntu) "Oneiric A3: In "Check disc for defects", splash screen continues to show progress indefinitely, even after disk check is complete." [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/822542
<slangasek> there are many plymouth bugs about varying degrees of nothing being displayed :/
<slangasek> there's one open about text failing to display
<bdmurray> and the disk check is text right?
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> ah, yeah, reading the bug description, looks like the same issue
<slangasek> bugf #812022
<slangasek> bug #812022
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 812022 in plymouth (Ubuntu Oneiric) "plymouth regression: text missing in initramfs (again)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/812022
<bdmurray> slangasek: great, thanks!
<bdmurray> that's all I had for this week
<slangasek> I haven't debugged that yet because plymouth:debug boot options don't seem to be working right
<slangasek> bdmurray: cool, thank you
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology is the new Mootbot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Aug 10 15:48:22 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-08-10-15.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> and thanks, everyone!
<barry> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<ev> thanks!
<mvo> thanks
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu QA meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 25 minutes. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
 * charlie-tca waves
<patrickmw> hello charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Hello, patrickmw
<charlie-tca> Anyone else here for today's meeting?
<Ursinha> o/
<charlie-tca> Hello, Ursinha
<Ursinha> hi charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Great! Let's get started then?
<patrickmw> charlie-tca, they're here
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Aug 10 17:01:22 2011 UTC.  The chair is charlie-tca. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<charlie-tca> Welcome to the weekly QA meeting
<charlie-tca> The agenda is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<komputes> o/
<charlie-tca> Previous Actions (all)
<charlie-tca> Community Efforts/Testing
<charlie-tca> Automated/Systems Testing
<charlie-tca> Engineering Team Bug Status
<charlie-tca> Other Topics
<charlie-tca> Chair Selection
<charlie-tca> komputes: question?
<komputes> no, just marking that I'm present
<charlie-tca> I know we are trying to get everyone to use .. in meetings now, so please try to remember that means you are done speaking.
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<meetingology> TOPIC: Previous Actions
<charlie-tca> I can't think of anything, can anyone else?
<hggdh> no from here
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community Efforts/Testing
<meetingology> TOPIC: Community Efforts/Testing
<charlie-tca> pedro?
<jibel> I'm here
<jibel> Hey all!
<charlie-tca> anyone?
<charlie-tca> Hello, jibel
<jibel> Main activity was A3 testing
<charlie-tca> Who has community Efforts today?
<jibel> Testing report available at
<jibel> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/OneiricAlpha3TestReport
<jibel> The following bugs have been identified from the A3 testing:
<jibel> [LINK] http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/report
<jibel> the bot doesn't understand [LINK] anymore ?
<jibel> #link http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/report
<jibel> :(
<charlie-tca> um, it might be broken, but that's okay, use it
<jibel> I won't fight against that thing
<jibel> so back to A3
<jibel> The expectation is that the bugs will reviewed by the proper team before the end of this week and worked as appropriate.
<jibel> thanks for everyone who help with testing !
<jibel> ..
<charlie-tca> This is a different bot than normal, since mootbot quit working
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much, jibel
<charlie-tca> Any questions ?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Automated/Systems Testing
<meetingology> TOPIC: Automated/Systems Testing
<patrickmw> = QA Lab =
<patrickmw> â¢ public jenkins still in progress. working through technical issues with IS
<patrickmw> = DX Testing =
<patrickmw> â¢ Creating isolated VM environment for DX to run tests
<patrickmw> â Env has been tested locally, currently migrating images to lab
<patrickmw> â¢ DX team expected to have the ability to add projects this week
<patrickmw> ..
<charlie-tca> Thank you, patrickmw
<charlie-tca> Questions on automated testing?
<charlie-tca> or comments
<komputes> Yes indeed
<charlie-tca> go ahead, please
<komputes> I was wondering if there was any advancement on building a database of users with hardware who are willing to preform hw specific tests.
<komputes> ..
<hggdh> I am not aware of any advances in this area, currently
<komputes> moving on then ..
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status
<meetingology> TOPIC: Engineering Team Bug Status
<charlie-tca> Ursinha: update?
<Ursinha> charlie-tca: yes yes
<Ursinha> I've been working on triaging bugs for the server team, to improve the process
<Ursinha> and I've added another report to our list: http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Ursinha> this is based on a report Daviey created for the release meetings, there's also a wiki output version
<Ursinha> I'm compiling all reports in lp:~ubuntu-defect-analysts/+junk
<Ursinha> and looking forward to meet all the other defect analysts next week in our sprint :)
<Ursinha> ..
<charlie-tca> That's a nice tracking chart.
<charlie-tca> bdmurray: any updates today?
<bdmurray> charlie-tca: Hi, sorry just a sec
<charlie-tca> no problem
<bdmurray> I've modified ubiquity to recommend people use ubuntu-bug instead of going to +filebug and adding log files manually
<bdmurray> I'm actively working on a duplicate signature for package installation failures to reduce the number of duplicates we get of those
<bdmurray> I've also updated kerneloops to prevent reporting of NETDEV WATCHDOG errors
<bdmurray> that's about it
<charlie-tca> Thank you!
<bdmurray> well, that's the most intersting bits ;-)
<charlie-tca> I hate having to attach those logs
<charlie-tca> hm, I don't we have a bug day tomorrow, due to the desktop summit
<charlie-tca> at least I can use that excuse
<charlie-tca> any questions/comments?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any Other Business?
<meetingology> TOPIC: Any Other Business?
<charlie-tca> open floor for anything to be discussed
<hggdh> <- not here
<charlie-tca> heh
<hggdh> :-)
<charlie-tca> hggdh: did you have anything today?
<hggdh> no, I am cool
<charlie-tca> You been kind of quiet
<hggdh> sort of busy, unfortunately
<pgraner> charlie-tca, o/
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Chair Selection
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Chair Selection
<meetingology> TOPIC: Chair Selection
<charlie-tca> go ahead, pgraner
<charlie-tca> or are you next chair?
<pgraner> charlie-tca, just wanted to welcome a new canonical QA team member gema
<pgraner> she started monday and will be coming up to speed
<pgraner> ..
<charlie-tca> Welcome to QA
<hggdh> gema!
<Ursinha> pgraner: she's not here?
<charlie-tca> Always to good to have more people!
<pgraner> Ursinha, yep, wanted to make the community aware tho
<Ursinha> pgraner: just wanted to greet her :)
<charlie-tca> Well, then, as you come across gema, welcome her to the group
<pgraner> charlie-tca, thanks
<Ursinha> (just did on #ubuntu-server)
<charlie-tca> and now, back to that most wonderful moment of all, a new chair?
<charlie-tca> any volunteers?
<charlie-tca> $ shuf -e hggdh, patrickmw pedro_ bdmurray jibel Ursinha|head -1
<Ursinha> ah the winner is....
<Ursinha> s/ah/and/
<charlie-tca> I have no idea how to work this
<charlie-tca> lol
<charlie-tca> maybe it don't work too?
<pgraner> charlie-tca, many of us will be away a a sprint next week
<Ursinha> ursula@galactica: ~ $ shuf -e hggdh, patrickmw pedro_ bdmurray jibel Ursinha|head -1
<Ursinha> pedro_
<Ursinha> I will, and pedro_, bdmurray
<charlie-tca> Okay, bdmurray was going to have this one. Maybe he would be so kind as to take next week?
<Ursinha> charlie-tca: we're going to be sprinting next week
<Ursinha> me, pedro, bdmurray and pgraner
<charlie-tca> oh
<charlie-tca> well, then
<charlie-tca> hggdh: you want a turn?
<hggdh> aye :-)
<charlie-tca> Thank you!
<charlie-tca> next meeting chair will be hggdh
<hggdh> charlie-tca: you are always welcome, sir
<charlie-tca> If there is no other business, thank all of you for participating in the meeting.
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology is the new Mootbot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Aug 10 17:27:36 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-08-10-17.01.moin.txt
<hggdh> thank you for chairing, charlie-tca
<Ursinha> thanks charlie-tca!
<hggdh> cd /var/log/installer
<charlie-tca> you are most welcome, of course
<hggdh> ugh, worng channel, sorry
<charlie-tca> That works in a channel?
<Ursinha> hggdh: command not found
<Ursinha> :P
<hggdh> heh
<AlanBell> I will be moving meetingology between hosts and probably changing the name and registering it later
<AlanBell> I will try not to do so when active meetings are running
<Mkaysi> Are you going to also update it? Ubuntu repository version is old, but everything happens in git. Actually in forks git.
<AlanBell> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Aug 10 19:31:04 2011 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<AlanBell> #topic lets talk about something
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lets talk about something
<meetingology> TOPIC: lets talk about something
<AlanBell> anyone here want to help test the new mootbot?
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology is the new Mootbot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Aug 10 19:32:02 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-08-10-19.31.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-08-11
<ogra_> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug 11 15:08:36 2011 UTC.  The chair is ogra_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<ogra_> hmm, i dont have the urls handy, gimme a sec
<ogra_> grmbl
<ogra_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110811 doesnt exist
<ogra_> so i only have action items from a week ago
<ogra_> i'll skip these for now ...
<ogra_> [topic] standing items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: standing items
<meetingology> TOPIC: standing items
<ogra_> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<ogra_> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-oneiric-beta-1.html
<GrueMaster> try http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-arm-ubuntu-11.10-beta-1.html
<infinity> The first graph seems more broken than I remember it.
<ogra_> hmm, i still have to update the WI tracker code to pick up the new name
 * NCommander coughs a lng up
<NCommander> *lung
<ogra_> i guess that causes the weird graphs ... bear with me, its on my todo for after mx5 and ac100 have landed
<ogra_> NCommander, do you remember any action items from last week ? (there was no wikipage and i dont remember them)
<NCommander> ogra_: there's a wikipage, I sent the link out in the reminder email
<ogra_> anyway....
<ogra_> [action] ogra to update WI tracker with new team name
<meetingology> ACTION: ogra to update WI tracker with new team name
<ogra_> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<meetingology> TOPIC: ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<NCommander> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2011/20110811
<ogra_> oh whay is that arm now
<ogra_> the others are all at /MobileTeam/Meeting/
<NCommander> Because all the wiki pages were rearranged
<ogra_> up to last week
<ogra_> k
<ogra_> anyway, how is the server looking ?
<NCommander> Server images themselves work pretty well, though I found a bug  that occurs duringnetwork setup if you don't have internet access
<infinity> That's unique to ARM?
<ogra_> how was the LCX summit wrt arm stuff ?
<ogra_> *LXC
<NCommander> LXC is semi-foobared on omap4 due to kernel configuration issues, but a new kernel was uploaded yesterday to help to resolve it
<NCommander> I'll be confirming LXC works out of the box when I can stop hacking up a lung
<ogra_> funny that these werent taken over from .38
<ogra_> iirc all these options were enabled in .38 already
<infinity> ogra_: .38 had the same missing bits.
<ogra_> ah, k
<ogra_> just because the USER_NS bug was fix released already
<ogra_> anything else for server ?
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> moving on
<ogra_> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<meetingology> TOPIC: Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<ogra_> neither is here
<ogra_> anyone else got something for kernel (apart from the above wrt server)
<janimo> should upload the linaro mx kernel today
<janimo> sponsor it for linaro
<ogra_> mahmoh is constantly cpmplaining that we have no omap4 srever flavour
<GrueMaster> I ran into a snag with ipsec because of missing kernel bits.
<GrueMaster> Should be fixed with latest kernel upload.
<ogra_> yeah
<infinity> I'm not convinced we need a -server kernel for a product that's essential a proof-of-concept, but...
<ogra_> davidm, do we have any plans to make kernel teams life harder this release with an -omap4-server kernel ?
<GrueMaster> If omap4 were a server product, I would see where having a server kernel would be nice.
<ogra_> infinity, i agree
<davidm> ogra_, I do not have any such plans
<ogra_> good :)
<ogra_> anything else for kernel ?
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> moving on
<davidm> yep
<ogra_> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<meetingology> TOPIC: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra_> the ftbfs list looks awful
<janimo> nothing to report aside from the occasional givebacks to LP
<ogra_> i nearly fell off my chair today when i checked it
<janimo> ogra_, hmm it seemed to me it was usual
 * janimo checks again
<infinity> Yeah, now that we're (well, sometime today) in FeatureFreeze, I'm jumping into FTBFS head-first.
<ogra_> wasnt someone looking into ocaml three weeks ago ?
<janimo> more than one person. NCommander and linaro gcc folk
<infinity> NCommander was poking ocaml with a pointy stick.
<infinity> And if/when that gets fixed, we can clean up a lot of our mess.
<ogra_> might have left some holes ... but no fix :)
<ogra_> right
<janimo> emacs is not ARM specific but just happened to be a timing issue, likewise is server team. libvirt is new FTBFS
<NCommander> I made some progress with ocaml but no fix
<ogra_> yeah, and libvirt is weird
<janimo> any progress with the panda cluster? That would also clean up the list quite a bit
<ogra_> cjwatson came by in #ubuntu-arm asking about it ... i tried a local build and that fails in even earlier tests
<ogra_> so another pair of eyes on libvirt would be appreciated
<janimo> ogra_, I'll take a look at libvirt if noone else got it
<ogra_> and probably a build with the last change rolled back to see if its introduced through that (which i think is unlikely)
<ogra_> [action] janimo to look at libvirt after FF
<meetingology> ACTION: janimo to look at libvirt after FF
<ogra_> anything else ?
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> moving on
 * janimo bets on gcc
<ogra_> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<meetingology> TOPIC: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_> awful !
<ogra_> the livefs builders committed suicide, x86 had livecd-rootfs removed and the archive is totally out of sync
<davidm> Ouch
<infinity> Yeah, the word of the day is "special".
<ogra_> i was (trying to) working on the ac100 iamges ssince monday but instead of coding i'm actiually fighting the archive churn
<infinity> But none of the special is ARM-specific.
<NCommander> least A3 was last week
<ogra_> infinity, the chrun is ports specific as usual
<cjwatson> livecd-rootfs has been put back, FWIW, and measures taken to stop that happening again
<ogra_> and it gets really annoying that i have to spend three days on the archive to actually be able to produce 1-2h of code work
<GrueMaster> That might explain why my mirror decided to puke.
<infinity> ogra_: Well, the unity churn was an issue (and I smacked that until it got fixed), but the ubuntu-one screwup was out of our hands, for instance.  And the livecd-rootfs thing.
<cjwatson> I'm afraid to say that *somebody* has to spend that time on the archive at some point or stuff doesn't get fixed, in aggregate ...
<ogra_> infinity, well, the ubuntuone breakage was fixed with a seed change and meta upload
<ogra_> i was just to frustrated yesterday to actually do it, but it should be solved now
<infinity> ogra_: Oh, they don't intend to reintroduce the gnome client?  The changelog seemed to indicate differently.
<infinity> Grr.
<ogra_> i dont care
<infinity> cjwatson: *nod*
<ogra_> if it comes back i'll happily seed it again
<cjwatson> FWIW you didn't actually have to change the seeds - rebuilding ubuntu-meta would have sufficed
<ogra_> but really, we need to get that archive skew thing fixed, thats why i'm moaning
<cjwatson> and that would mean it would automatically revert if the package is reintroduced
<infinity> cjwatson: Rebuilding meta would have dropped ubuntuone entirely, if it was being pulled in by the non-existant package.
<ogra_> indeed
<cjwatson> true
<cjwatson> but ogra's seed change was *only* to comment out ubuntuone-client-gnome
<infinity> Oh. :)
<ogra_> anyway, i think we are burning lots of manhours fighting the archive issues every release ... just felt like mentioning it once again
<infinity> Yeah, I didn't look.
<cjwatson> for future reference rebuilding ubuntu-meta would've been enough
<infinity> ogra_: Now that we're past FF, I'll be keeping a closer eye on archive stuff for us.
<infinity> Well, almost past.  Whatever.
<ogra_> infinity, and how would that help ?
 * infinity looks at a clock.
<ogra_> you cant remove the sync issues
<infinity> ogra_: Because catching things as they're a problem is much better than letting them stack up for two days and become an unresolvable mess?
<ogra_> sure, but thats just curing the symptoms (as we do since 3 years)
<ogra_> anyway
<ogra_> lets move
<ogra_> unless anyone else has something for image
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> moving on
<ogra_> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Status (GrueMaster)
<meetingology> TOPIC: QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Landscape testing works well.  Running the qa entropy script now, expect results in two weeks.
<ogra_> heh
<infinity> Plug in a keyboard and hire a cat to walk on it.
<GrueMaster> My mirror is slowly being rebuilt, so until it finishes I can't do much automation.
<janimo> so much entropy from that rsync activity going to waste
<GrueMaster> The entropy test is a server workitem.
<GrueMaster> Will look into iSCSI or LAVA today.  Haven't decided which will be more exciting.
<GrueMaster> Especially given that I can't reimage with netinstall atm.
<GrueMaster> Nothing else to report.
<ogra_> any questions ? else i'll move to AOB
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> moving on
<ogra_> [topic] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<meetingology> TOPIC: AOB
<ogra_> so seeing #linaro there are some changes ahead for us
<ogra_> seems x-loader gets dropped
<janimo> from where?
<ogra_> which means we need to adjust the image builders
<ogra_> janimo, by linaro
<janimo> can omap boot without it?
<GrueMaster> What are they replacing it with?
<ogra_> they roll a u-boot that can run without x-loader
<GrueMaster> ah
<ogra_> see #linaro for further info ...
<janimo> getting rid of software wothout losing features is good
<ogra_> i just felt that fits into AOB :)
<janimo> first time I hear about it
<ogra_> me too
<ogra_> just wanted to mention that debian-cd will need adjustment
<ogra_> and jasper probably too
<GrueMaster> It will be interesting to see if it works.
<ogra_> thats all from my side
<janimo> ah getting rid of the debian package for xloader
<janimo> but still need MLO on the disk
<GrueMaster> Considering the 2nd stage needs to fit in 64k and u-boot is 227k.
<janimo> I was hoping they found a way to not use a bootloader to load a bootloader to load a bootloader as now
<ogra_> there is a solution
<ogra_> you can add a binary header to the u-boot binary
<GrueMaster> Oh.  They're combining x-loader & u-boot into one package with 2 binaries?  Make sense.
<ogra_> there are some docs on omappedia about that
<ogra_> anyway, no need to discuss details in the meeting, we just need to make the builder changes at the same time the package change
<ogra_> and it looks like that will happen after FF
<janimo> are they planning it in the oneiric timeframe?
<janimo> ok
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> there was talk about an FFe
<ogra_> anything else ?
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<ogra_> .
<janimo> interesting conqequences of having 6 months vs 1 month release cycles project working on similar things :)
<ogra_> heh, yeah
<ogra_> going once
<ogra_> twice ....
<ogra_> ... sold to the dogowning QA guy in portland
<ogra_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology is the new Mootbot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug 11 15:45:53 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-08-11-15.08.moin.txt
<AlanBell> ogra_: are those minutes in a useful format for you?
<ogra_> AlanBell, let me see
<ogra_> AlanBell, awesome !
<AlanBell> the theory is that it should be copy-paste-done to the wiki
<ogra_> yeah, looks great
<czajkowski> ogra_: less work for you :)
<ogra_> yep :)
<ogra_> well, i normally dont run this meeting, but NCommander fell over in a fever ...
<charlie-tca> Sure NCommander didn't just want a break from running the meeting? ;)
 * NCommander smacks charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> ouch!
<czajkowski> ogra_: good practice for next months meeting and gimmie a break :)
<ogra_> yeah, and the CC meeting is right afterwards
<ogra_> ah, no there is one before
<czajkowski> ogra_: better make it finish on time so
<ogra_> well, the one i mean is actually coming thu.
<ogra_> err
<ogra_> tue.
<ogra_> (these T days ... always confusing)
<charlie-tca> See, even coughing up the lung doesn't slow NCommander down :)
<ogra_> but it quietens him a bit (its hard to speak witgh your lung between your lips)
<czajkowski> ogra_: you're so caring
<ogra_> thats what team mates are for, no *g*
<AlanBell> czajkowski: seen the new #voters command?
<czajkowski> AlanBell: i can barely see in front of me, so not atm. will scroll logs in a wee bit
<czajkowski> once i find food and get out of suit into jeans and hoodie
<AlanBell> it isn't in the logs
<AlanBell> go have yummy food
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: are the commands someplace?
<AlanBell> yeah, they are as they always were, with a couple of extras
<AlanBell> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
<AlanBell> I will move that page to /meetingology or something I think, and take my name out of the links the bot gives at the start and end of the meeting
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<kees> o/
<nijaba> wendar and nijaba are available if any questions arrises on the proposed policy
<nijaba> o/
<cjwatson> o/
<cjwatson> do we have quorum?
<cjwatson> pitti sent apologies
<cjwatson> mdz: around?
<mdz> cjwatson, yes
<cjwatson> hi Keybuk
<cjwatson> we have kees and mdz too
<cjwatson> pitti is at the desktop summit and sent apologies; I believe sabdfl is at the summit too so maybe he won't be around
<kees> it's all you Keybuk :)
<Keybuk> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug 11 18:05:49 2011 UTC.  The chair is Keybuk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<Keybuk> #topic Action Rview
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Action Rview
<meetingology> TOPIC: Action Rview
<Keybuk> Set series RM to ubuntu-release (cjwatson)
<Keybuk> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/174375
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 174375 in Launchpad itself "Distribution drivers permissions may need redesign" [Low,Triaged]
<Keybuk> done?
<cjwatson> yes!
<cjwatson> at long last
<Keybuk> Brainstorm review update (cjwatson)
<cjwatson> not done :-(
<Keybuk> Send notes on the Extension Repository Policy proposal (everyone)
<Keybuk> did this mean the Partner repository?
<Keybuk> or something else/
<kees> i failed at this, but mdz had good things to say
<kees> it's the merged partner and extras policy
<Keybuk> I don't think I've seen that
<wendar> I've updated the proposal to the latest from the technical-board mailing list thread.
<mdz> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-August/001007.html
<kees> there has been a thread about it on the tb list
<mdz> all of the issues I raised have been addressed
<Keybuk> mdz: right, that's the thread I meant by "the Partner repository"
<Keybuk> we have a separate agenda item for that
<Keybuk> so
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] Policy proposal for extensions repository
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Policy proposal for extensions repository
<meetingology> TOPIC: Policy proposal for extensions repository
<mdz> Keybuk, extension = partner + ARB + ...?
<Keybuk> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PartnerRepositoryPolicy
<Keybuk> so all of mdz'
<Keybuk> s issues have been addressed
<mdz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PartnerRepositoryPolicy
<Keybuk> did anyone else have issues with the policy?
<mdz> it was just updated today with the changes discussed
<cjwatson> some of the rules are unnecessary (we already have transitive closure rules for the components of the Ubuntu archive proper), but no matter
<mdz> is anyone NOT prepared to vote on it today?
<cjwatson> I'm happy that the set of differences are proportionate to what these repositories need, and that they aren't unreasonably hard for archive admins to enforce
<cjwatson> if approved, it should be linked from the archive admin docs and archive admins should be made aware of it
<kees> I'm happy with it. I'd love to see a "nice to have" area (e.g. "built with ubuntu's compiler"), but I don't think there is really a place for that
<Keybuk> I think, given the resounding silence, and given the healthy ML thread, we should go ahead and vote
<mdz> I'm conscious that this was first proposed in May
<Keybuk> [VOTE] Policy proposal for extensions repository
<meetingology> Please vote on: Policy proposal for extensions repository
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<mdz> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from mdz
<cjwatson> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cjwatson
<Keybuk> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Keybuk
<kees> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kees
<Keybuk> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Policy proposal for extensions repository
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
 * nijaba thanks the board
 * wendar too
<kees> thanks nijaba and wendar !
<mdz> nijaba, wendar, sorry it took so long to get here
<Keybuk> nijaba: thank you for your work on this
<nijaba> Keybuk: wendar did help a lot too :)
<Keybuk> ok,
<Keybuk> [TOPIC] AOB?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB?
<meetingology> TOPIC: AOB?
<cjwatson> I have one small item
<Keybuk> cjwatson: go for it
<cjwatson> I'm also checking with Mark in his capacity as my employer, but figured I'd ask the board as well
<cjwatson> at DebConf, Stefano and Bdale asked if I'd like to serve on the Debian Technical Committee
<cjwatson> I'm minded to accept, but would like to check that nobody on the TB feels this is any kind of conflict
<mdz> do you anticipate the tech-ctte becoming more active?
<mdz> hmm, looking at the archives, maybe it already is
<kees> I have trouble imagining a direct conflict. seems like it would be bebficial. might be more work than expected since we sometimes move items from here to tech-ctte
<cjwatson> it's active in the sense that it responds in a reasonably timely fashion nowadays
<kees> *beneficial
<mdz> I could imagine situations where you would want to abstain from certain decisions in either role
<cjwatson> there are limits to how active it can be in some senses since its role is laid down in the Debian constitution; for example the constitution says that it does not do technical design
<mdz> but no conflict of interest in occpying it
<Keybuk> speaking as somebody who serves in a technical capacity on two competing Linux distributions already, I don't see a conflict
<kees> true, but I think that almost stems more from being a dev than a board member
<cjwatson> but Bdale did say he was looking for somebody who would be able to help drive discussions forward, and a wider range of experience
<cjwatson> I think the activity level of the TC is such that I can manage that
<cjwatson> there was some discussion at DebConf, so interested people may like to review the video of that session
<Keybuk> cjwatson: though I do worry that when you do burnout from taking on too much, the resulting explosion could end all life on this planet
<cjwatson> I agree that there are cases where abstentions would be needed, although I haven't seen any such in recent activity
<kees> how do people get onto the TC? appointment?
<cjwatson> appointment by DPL + existing TC
<kees> yeah, I'd say go for it as long as you don't think you'll be spread too thin
<cjwatson> at the very least I must admit it's gratifying to be asked :)
<mdz> +1
<cjwatson> so ok, thanks for the feedback folks, I'll try to get hold of Mark once he's back from his travels
<Keybuk> great
<Keybuk> mdz: I believe you're next chair in alphabetical rotation?
 * mdz nods
<Keybuk> great
<Keybuk> then if there's nothing else ...
<mdz> Keybuk, agenda will be empty following this meeting, yes?
<Keybuk> mdz: it will, but I still can't edit the wiki, so if you could clear it ...
<mdz> I think that's our first "zero moment" in a while
<mdz> so, yay
<mdz> cjwatson, do you need help with the brainstorm review?
<mdz> unfortunately I can't offer myself at present
<cjwatson> no, I just had to put a lot of stuff on hold while away in the Balkans
<Keybuk> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology is the new Mootbot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug 11 18:25:44 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-08-11-18.05.moin.txt
<cjwatson> and then there was feature freeze
<cjwatson> I'll be able to take care of this early next week
<cjwatson> I realise I'm late, sorry
<mdz> cool
<mdz> thanks Keybuk
<kees> thanks!
<Keybuk> oh, wow, I can login to the wiki now - it just took 7 minutes to complete the login
<Keybuk> agenda updated :)
<duanedesign> hello all
<duanedesign> PabloRubianes: meeting know?
<PabloRubianes> hi duanedesign
<PabloRubianes> I think it's in 45 min
<duanedesign> when of
<PabloRubianes> right? or my date -u is lying
<duanedesign> whew of
<jledbetter> PabloRubianes, I think so
<duanedesign> thanks you jledbetter
 * jledbetter checks fridge cal
<jledbetter> Yep!
<duanedesign> mw goes to get rfamiliar with the bots commands
<jledbetter> heh
<PabloRubianes> hehe
<duanedesign> amyone have alink lol
<duanedesign> nigelb: maybe :)
<duanedesign> ok i got it :)
<jledbetter> duanedesign, One in topic
<jledbetter> oh ok :)
<duanedesign> lol that is prbabaly it :)
<duanedesign> has any of the BEginners Team had a chance to look though the proposat Crales made
<PabloRubianes> duanedesign, are you sober?
<jledbetter> lol
<PabloRubianes> :P
<charlie-tca> duanedesign: bot stuff - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
<AlanBell> that is just the new commands really
<AlanBell> it is #startmeeting and #endmeeting at either end
<AlanBell> and #topic foo to change topics
<jledbetter> duanedesign, Yes. Read the sandbox link from cprofitt
<AlanBell>  and #action nick stuff to do to give someone an action
<duanedesign> PabloRubianes: i wonder. I had a glass a wine at dinner which I do not do. Fortunately it only degrades my typing skills :)
<jledbetter> Hehe
<duanedesign> my typing skills are my achellis heel antway
<duanedesign> see!  anyway*
<charlie-tca> You need one of the "spelling knowing" apps.
<PabloRubianes> duanedesign, ahhahaha
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-08-12
<charlie-tca> duanedesign: you ready?
<PabloRubianes> duanedesign,
<duanedesign> yes
<duanedesign> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Aug 12 00:05:04 2011 UTC.  The chair is duanedesign. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<IAmNotThatGuy> o/
<PabloRubianes> hello
<duanedesign> raise hand ih here o/
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> o/
<jledbetter> o/
<charlie-tca> at least in spirit
<PabloRubianes> o/
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha
<MrChrisDruif> Sorry I'm late
<duanedesign> ok i will start charles proposal
<duanedesign> i hope some you had time to read it
<bodhi_zazen> read what (I just joined)
<duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<jledbetter> #link will add it to the log pretty like I think
<MrChrisDruif> I had my personal live intervene
<duanedesign> thanks led
<bodhi_zazen> duanedesign: who is here from the bt council ?
<phillw> late, but here
<duanedesign> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<bodhi_zazen> I think that link is mute ^^
<charlie-tca> it just doesn't repeat them here anymore
<DarkwingDuck> Sorry I'm late
<IAmNotThatGuy> DarkwingDuck, we are just starting =]
<DarkwingDuck> Outstanding
<bodhi_zazen> I think the BT is all but dead, if people want to support new users, let them support new users on the forums or irc or LP or what have you
<duanedesign> i dont know about that
<bodhi_zazen> If the BT wants to morph itself into an ambassador role, new to Ubuntu, and helping people integrate into the community, we need buy in from other teams
<duanedesign> i think te team has a lot to offer.
<bodhi_zazen> Which we clearly do not have
<bodhi_zazen> so I suggest we discuss the BT with the CC
<bodhi_zazen> We have a lot to offer, but why do we need the BT to make the offering ?
<phillw> bodhi_zazen: whilst me and UBT had issues, that news is devarsting to me
<duanedesign> bodhi_zazen: I have contagted the MOTE Mentoring Program and the bugs Mentoring Program and they were interested in woring with us
<bodhi_zazen> Well, that is what needs to be discussed, not the link from cprofit
<bodhi_zazen> IMO
<DarkwingDuck> What UBT needs is a core of people with TONs of time to drive it.
<duanedesign> i think thr issue is we, the BT, put to many obstacles in the way for someone who just wants to learn Documentation
<DarkwingDuck> I don't have the time at the moment to be a driving force.
<charlie-tca> I think the link was one of the subjects of the meeting
<jledbetter> DarkwingDuck, I thought that's part of what council was? People that were committed and had the time.
<bodhi_zazen> We need to map out how we are going to integrate the BT into the community
<jledbetter> charlie-tca, +1
<bodhi_zazen> charlie-tca: it is , but it is sort of irrelevant, IMO
<PabloRubianes> I think we are missing the point
<phillw> DarkwingDuck: we gave the coucil those ruights?
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, there seems to be at least one person here who refuses such a meeting to even take place
 * bkerensa can help with UBT
<PabloRubianes> if we want to be a team or just pointers to upstream
<DarkwingDuck> Yes, but the Council can't even get on the same page.
<PabloRubianes> as I see it
<DarkwingDuck> and I'm saying that as a Jr member on the council.
<JasonO> Hi
<jledbetter> Hi JasonO
<bkerensa> Hi
<JasonO> Hi jledbetter
<JasonO> Hi bkerensa
<DarkwingDuck> That's the issue... we have no "roadmap"
<duanedesign> the mentoring programs that exist in different areas of the community are struggking, as i understand, The beginners Team has much knowkedge in this area we can bring ti the table
<bkerensa> This is Ubuntu Beginners Team Meeting correct?
<jledbetter> bkerensa, Yes :)
 * bkerensa is in the right place then
<PabloRubianes> duanedesign, yes but I see that the original BT way was the best
<jledbetter> I see the BT as feeding the other projects. a place people can go and ask (and get help with) "I want to help. Where/How can I?"
<PabloRubianes> where you have a guide (human) to interact
<IAmNotThatGuy> Its not just the core team to spend time. We ned contribution from each memeber, atleast for an hour each day
<duanedesign> We need to work with Doc Team, Bug Squad, MOTE wcwtera to best determin how to get people interested in their team. At the sametime encourage their mentoring program to join ours,So we can share best practices and resources
<bodhi_zazen> The future of the BT is what needs to be discussed, there is no consensus on the council or within the team , there is no mission
<PabloRubianes> bodhi_zazen, true
<duanedesign> jledbetter: i agree, er nned to push people to these other teams
<jledbetter> Oh no... she's going to be one of *those* people....
<phillw> duanedesign: indeed, as of my "leaving" UBT, is also seems that things like MOTU, have failed... miserably
<jledbetter> "The Ubuntu Beginners Team exists to enhance the initial experience of new Ubuntu users and to guide existing Ubuntu users to become part of the global Ubuntu community. " https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/
<PabloRubianes> but if we are just pointer to other places, none stays and knowledge get lost
<DarkwingDuck> I'm still here.
<bodhi_zazen> jledbetter: that definition is depreciated
<DarkwingDuck> and I went from BT to Doc team and Kubuntu Council
<jledbetter> PabloRubianes, I would think folks would be happy to be helped and emaybe stick around to help others.
<bodhi_zazen> And can be better served in other ways
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, Oh? Documentation?
<duanedesign> PabloRubianes: good point. I would work to integrate the other teams mentoring processes into the beginnersteam
<bodhi_zazen> You do not need a BT to help on LP, forums, irc ....
<MrChrisDruif> PabloRubianes; I think you have it wrong, at least in my eyes
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, Nope. Anyone can. :)
<bodhi_zazen> jledbetter: Documentation of what ?
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, Why it's deprecated.
<PabloRubianes> MrChrisDruif, what do you think?
<MrChrisDruif> It would be *awesome* is "we" would become the mentoring area
<bodhi_zazen> jledbetter: did you not read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, That's what we're discussing. It's not in place :)
 * phillw to be suspended for a sense of humour.... What rules where there for that?
<bodhi_zazen> It has not been fully adopted
<MrChrisDruif> That way we wouldn't loose any knowledge
<duanedesign> bodhi_zazen: i agree we need no team buti can not imagine I would have ever been so active had I not belong to a team than containeed so many knowledgable people in different areas of the community
<PabloRubianes> MrChrisDruif, I mean in the new model proposed
<bkerensa> I think BT should have a person who handles each aspect of contribution: bugs, doc, locos, dev, marketing etc and should act as a beginner mentor in each area
<bodhi_zazen> What we need to do is have a discussion with the CC and other community leaders
<bodhi_zazen> and build a role for the BT
<duanedesign> i agree bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> support will be a part of what we do
<bkerensa> bodhi_zazen: +1
<PabloRubianes> I think becoming a mentorship area is the ideal, but first we have to have a strong team behind with sense of pretence
<duanedesign> bodhi_zazen: preliminary talks have happened with Joeb454
<bodhi_zazen> and half the team can not grasp that concept
<jledbetter> PabloRubianes, +1
<duanedesign> err, jono
<bodhi_zazen> like jledbetter , and others
<jledbetter> Wow.
<bodhi_zazen> which results in chaos
<PabloRubianes> sense of you belong there
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, and I think there should be a -team where we had all fun and more than that
<bodhi_zazen> IAmNotThatGuy: I agree, but that is not the future of theBT
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, What can't I grasp, exactly?
<PabloRubianes> IAmNotThatGuy, +1
<DarkwingDuck> What does the UBT think they are?
<DarkwingDuck> the council has been debating this for ever now...
<DarkwingDuck> What does the rest of the UBT see the UBT being?
<duanedesign> bodhi_zazen:  i think i agree that input from thecommunity is essentkial. What do they want, what will help most. From who i talked to a Mentor program woould help most. AS lot of teams have troublemaintaining them. hving a team that is all they do increases chances for succes IMHO
<bodhi_zazen> I do not know jledbetter , you are citing the old mission statement and wondering what happened
<bodhi_zazen> duanedesign: well, that is haelpful
<charlie-tca> apparently, if the team consists of bodhi_zazen, it is what ever he decides
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, Because that's what is on our wiki page and what brings people to us and why we get emails of people wanting to join. Right?
<bodhi_zazen> can you lay that out on a wiki page ?
<jledbetter> duanedesign, Yes, mentoring is what I keep hearing too.
<MrChrisDruif> DarkwingDuck; I would see it as it is; which would be support for beginning ubunteros and help in the transition from ubuntero to active ubuntero
<PabloRubianes> I think we need to try not to be a mess in here
 * phillw can I state how totally wrong the lp emails are?
<duanedesign> The current mission is: The Ubuntu Beginners Team exists to enhance the initial experience of new Ubuntu users and to guide existing Ubuntu users to become part of the global Ubuntu community.
<duanedesign> DarkwingDuck: ^
<bodhi_zazen> PabloRubianes: the Bt is in shambles, from top to bottom, from bottom to top
<phillw> if yoiu wish to be professionall, then gewt them sorted
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, I love UBT for the helpp and the team channel rather than FGs. And thats why I am not ready to leave the -team channel. It gives me some sort of energy to proceed forward. Kinda a force to run
<PabloRubianes> bodhi_zazen, yes
<DarkwingDuck> Yes, I know the mission statement.. I'm looking at what the members within the team view the team as.
<bodhi_zazen> Even within this meeting there is no agreement as to what the BT is any longer
<MrChrisDruif> With that in mind; that would mean that we should be mentoring people to becoming members in their prospected area
<bodhi_zazen> Same for the mailing list
<DarkwingDuck> That's my point bodhi_zazen
<bodhi_zazen> same for the council
<MrChrisDruif> Those areas would have people coming back to us to let the knowledge remain
<PabloRubianes> MrChrisDruif, I think there is where you get it wrong,
<PabloRubianes> new members should be first members of the team and then go upstream
<duanedesign> i would like to thing if you go through the Beginners team and lear Documentation, you will come back and repay that favor mentoring someone else
<bodhi_zazen> The greater community is asking the BT to morph from what is is/was into something else and most of the council see the team going in that direction
<jledbetter> duanedesign, What I was thinking too
<PabloRubianes> if we only help to evolve people to other teams in a few time none will remain in the bt
<bodhi_zazen> If not all of the council
<bodhi_zazen> The BT membership seems split 50/50
<duanedesign> one idea was to have an open team of eople looking for help
<bodhi_zazen> PabloRubianes: that may be the future of the BT
<duanedesign> and another team of mentors
<bodhi_zazen> if there is no mission / purpose
<PabloRubianes> bodhi_zazen, but I don't think that is right...
<bodhi_zazen> What is not right ? The UDS request ? the team forking ?
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, you know that this is our home. People who are loving it hard are still there. And how can we break it? We can do help in all FG, but lets also have #UB and -team
<PabloRubianes> bodhi_zazen, let out team future on other decision
<phillw> bodhi_zazen: My Lord and Master, I really feel to see a sense of humour. It has really troubled me as I so, so strongly belive in UBT.... where did they & I go wrong?
<bodhi_zazen> The team needs to decide what it wants to be
<jledbetter> lord and master?
 * DarkwingDuck sighs
 * MrChrisDruif joins DarkwingDuck in sighs
<bodhi_zazen> Are we going to answer the request from the community ?
<bodhi_zazen> Or be a support team ?
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, why cant we do both?
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, You would prefer support? As in "how to do I make X work in Ubuntu"?
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, I think duanedesign and I pretty much are on the same page, but just rephrasing it differently
<IAmNotThatGuy> Lets not break what we are till now and lets work on the request from the community
<bodhi_zazen> IAmNotThatGuy: because half the team does not want to do both, half the team wants to be support only
<jledbetter> Then they can be support. Those that don't can mentor ;)
<MrChrisDruif> jledbetter; +1
<phillw> DarkwingDuck: and MrChrisDruif you do not see our nick names, fior some this is a 'problem' but for those who know, this a statememnt of authourity
<DarkwingDuck> phillw: What are you smoking and where can I get some? :P
<jledbetter> lol
<MrChrisDruif> =D
<bodhi_zazen> So put that for a vote, both, then change the various wiki pages, and mov eforward
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, Or lets m,ake it like to be an UBT member, they should provide help in any one FG(If thats the case) but not breaking the -team :[
<bodhi_zazen> We should seriously do away with "membership"
<bodhi_zazen> We should either :
<DarkwingDuck> bodhi_zazen: +1
<bodhi_zazen> 1. Be an open team - probably best, anyone can join
<DarkwingDuck> I'm going to be brutally honest for a moment...
<bodhi_zazen> 2. Write out specific expectations for membership
<bkerensa> DarkwingDuck: Sure
<DarkwingDuck> and if you all want to fire me as a council member after, that's fine.
<DarkwingDuck> UBT is too full of egos and "look at what I can do" people
<bodhi_zazen> +1 DarkwingDuck
<phillw> DarkwingDuck: I have a guy who states "Hello Master" - I have been hi master, he inseests upon it because of it being barred
<bodhi_zazen> We seriously need to bleed off the disruptive members
<DarkwingDuck> It's turned into a group where people point at themselves and yell at what they do/have done.
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<DarkwingDuck> Ubuntu is not for people like that...
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<bkerensa> bodhi_zazen: and replenish with valuable ones?
<DarkwingDuck> If you want to brag about how great you are... go to Fedora or Arch
<jledbetter> lol
<bodhi_zazen> replenish what
<phillw> council seem to be closed qligue
<jledbetter> I thought folks were in UBT to help others.
<bkerensa> bodhi_zazen: members
<DarkwingDuck> jledbetter: in theory. In reality it's the inflated ego club of the month
<bodhi_zazen> I say we do not need "membership"
<phillw> I was astounded to realise tat council only vote on new mwmbwrs
<bodhi_zazen> should be an open team
<PabloRubianes> DarkwingDuck, great I think you are showing your ego
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, I agree with you: open
<DarkwingDuck> How is that?
<DarkwingDuck> PabloRubianes: ^^
<bodhi_zazen> At one time we sort of needed a membership process, but that was long ago and we have outgrown that need
<PabloRubianes> the first thing we should do is not to say... if you want that go to arch or fedora...
<bodhi_zazen> The idea of membership is dragging the team down and interfering with integration into the community
<phillw> bodhi_zazen: started UBT.... those who fail to listen to his advice, are fools.
<PabloRubianes> bodhi_zazen, the community don't even know we exist until they need a team to get people in
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, Agreed. Can we vote on that?
<DarkwingDuck> phillw: Can you please kindly stop trolling?
 * jledbetter would love to see a positive outcome from our first meeting in a while :)
<bodhi_zazen> What the BT needs is
<bodhi_zazen> 1. to define a mission statement
<bodhi_zazen> 2. We could use a few leaders please. Leaders have tended to go MIA
<duanedesign> i agree with ann open Beginners Team, But a closed Council Team
<bodhi_zazen> 3. We need some people who are willing to put some serious time into productive projects
<DarkwingDuck> Council conversations and decitions need to be open.
<bodhi_zazen> s/council/bt channel ops
<duanedesign> i agree, i think the monthly Council meetings will quickly bleed off the inactives
<bodhi_zazen> That is all we really need, channel ops to rid the channel of the occasional troll
<duanedesign> I do not want to see this team implode. We worked to hard to get hear an a lot of the community is starting to take notice of us
<bodhi_zazen> We still need leaders
<jledbetter> We do have an opening, I think.
<duanedesign> so let us ne civilized in handling this dierty laundry
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, Running?
<bodhi_zazen> Who is going to work with other community teams ?
<bodhi_zazen> Who is going to provide support ? Where ? IRC ? Forums " LP ?
<MrChrisDruif> Not me for a while, personal life issues
<DarkwingDuck> I'm hunting for a job, trying to stay in my apt and at this point in the release cycle my Ubuntu time is tied up in Kubuntu...
<bodhi_zazen> Don't all step forward at once =)
<duanedesign> bodhi_zazen: the support will be prvided not by BT
<bodhi_zazen> You see, all this team does any more is debate, no workers
<IAmNotThatGuy> bodhi_zazen, I am always in. But Promise me that  a -tem channel exists
<IAmNotThatGuy> -team*
<duanedesign> bodhi_zazen: the spport will be provided by the teams we mentor users for
<bodhi_zazen> duanedesign: I thought we agreed to split the team into two roles - support AND working with other teams
 * MrChrisDruif is off, bicker among yourselves. I think the document Charles put up is the direction we should try to go for.
<bodhi_zazen> we should first start by defining the BT mission
<bodhi_zazen> duanedesign: I agree with your definition "the spport will be provided by the teams we mentor users for"
<duanedesign> bodhi_zazen: at its most simp[le. Help users get involved in the community
<bodhi_zazen> I agree, drop support form BT, support goes to IRC, forms, LP, etc
<bodhi_zazen> I would agree with that definition, and I think the entire council would as well
<jledbetter> I agree with that mission, duanedesign, for what it's worth.
<bodhi_zazen> The rest of the team, however, is not willing to do that
<DarkwingDuck> +1 the statement
<bodhi_zazen> Which would mean forking the team
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, Am I in the "rest of the team" statement still?
<DarkwingDuck> Why not?
<bodhi_zazen> One team for community involvement and one for support
<phillw> bodhi_zazen: does that mean dropping MOTU training? As they understood it was going to be UBT?
<bodhi_zazen> phillw: depends on who you ask
<jledbetter> I thought MOTU had a mentoring project?
<phillw> bodhi_zazen: indeed, so a meeting like this is good :)
<phillw> jledbetter: not really, they were heading to UBT
<bodhi_zazen> Personally I would drop the support role from the BT and change to getting people involved in the community
<bodhi_zazen> I think the entire council wants that
<duanedesign> a lot of active users like to give supprt. So i think we politely nudge then to #ubuntu
<bodhi_zazen> move support to the appropriate, already existing community infrastructure - forums, LP, IRC, wiki
<bodhi_zazen> The BT is for"Help users get involved in the community"
<phillw> bodhi_zazen: you know through ~lubuntu, I do want at least one of our devs to become MOTU, He is capabble, but the the teams do not sema to be able to decide who says 'yes'
<bodhi_zazen> so this may mean directing them to forums, IRC, LP wiki
<DarkwingDuck> This is what I am looking for. 1) I don't like duplicated efforts. 2) I believe in helping new contributers make the transition into a team that works on a 6 month cycle with hardcore deadlines. 3) I believe in helping new people to Ubuntu.
<bodhi_zazen> or MOTU or what have you
<DarkwingDuck> 4) I dislike people who try to use teams to inflate egos.
<bodhi_zazen> The actual "work" gets done by the wiki team, or on #ubuntu, or on the fourms
<PabloRubianes> One moment!
<bkerensa> DarkwingDuck: +1
<PabloRubianes> I think we vote for a council... so this is just input
<bodhi_zazen> So again, back to square one, mission statement please =)
<bodhi_zazen> Probably need to stage the transition to be honest
<bodhi_zazen> Change mission statement to support and Help users get involved in the community
<bodhi_zazen> nudge members to #ubuntu or LP or MOTU
<bodhi_zazen> In 6-12 months re-define the mission statement to only "Help users get involved in the community"
<PabloRubianes> what's wrong to give support? waste of time? or something?
<PabloRubianes> you are not oblide to do it
<bodhi_zazen> Nothing is wrong with it
<bodhi_zazen> In the past support was the core of the mission statement, and we are changing
<phillw> PabloRubianes: some we win, some we lose - that should not stop us trying
<bodhi_zazen> so support will be provided not by the BT, but by existing teams / venues == less duplication of effort, etc
<DarkwingDuck> Okay sorry gang.. Kids are yelling and I need to support the wife.
<jledbetter> DarkwingDuck, See you later. Thank you for coming:)
<phillw> bodhi_zazen: I'd give a +1 for that :)
<bodhi_zazen> My proposal would be - Change the mission statement to include BOTH support AND Help users get involved in the community
<bodhi_zazen> Expect those who want to do #2 , Help users get involved in the community, build the bridges over the next 6 months
<bodhi_zazen> then re-evaluate
<phillw> bodhi_zazen: how many coucil members are here?
<bodhi_zazen> Depending on what progress is made we can morph to Help users get involved in the community or support ONLY, or continue on the dual path
<bodhi_zazen> seem like that would make the most people happy
<bodhi_zazen> poke Calling all FC council members
 * bodhi_zazen is here
<bodhi_zazen> The team also has to find a more effective method of communication, not everyone can make IRC meetings
<phillw> as do rioters, if you would propose your motion.
<bodhi_zazen> phillw: you willing to post that on the BT mailing list ?
<bodhi_zazen> Ask people to vote on the mailing list ?
<bodhi_zazen> Or set up some other voting method ?
<bodhi_zazen> We could take a straw poll here now
<bodhi_zazen> Please vote , Dual mission (+1) ?
<phillw> bodhi_zazen: with the greatest of pleasure, but there is a PM for you :)
<jledbetter> duanedesign, You can do #vote and I think it'll tally up votes for you
<PabloRubianes> we are voting now?
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen put a vote to the floor
<bodhi_zazen> jledbetter: I do not think I can do that
<jledbetter> Why not, bodhi_zazen?
<bodhi_zazen> My point is, I do not think there are enough people here now to vote, we should up it up on the mailing list
<jledbetter> Alright. Sounds good. I second that motion.
<jledbetter> duanedesign, Still with us?
<DarkwingDuck> I'm back
<bodhi_zazen> welcome back DarkwingDuck
<DarkwingDuck> Are we done here?
<bkerensa> Mmm
<bkerensa> Done are we?
<DarkwingDuck> Dunno, I came back and nothing.
<jledbetter> bodhi_zazen, I think, was making a motion to vote on the mission on the mailing list.
<DarkwingDuck> +1
<jledbetter> We seem to have lost duanedesign to the RL monster so can't #vote or #endmeeting :)
<jledbetter> DarkwingDuck, Since you're our other leader here. Feel free to stick a fork in it :)
<DarkwingDuck> Anything else anyone else wants to bring up?
<JasonO> What about the people who want to be mentored? Just received an email from a new person.
<JasonO> Or was that previously mentioned?
<JasonO> :/
<IAmNotThatGuy> JasonO, Mentoring will happen (According to the FGs)
<JasonO> Okey. FGs?
<IAmNotThatGuy> but I am still not sure whether #ubuntu-beginners-team will exist or not
<IAmNotThatGuy> Focus Group
<JasonO> Oh.
<DarkwingDuck> Why wouldn't it exist?
<jledbetter> Well, I need to get back to work :) See y'all later!
<DarkwingDuck> #endmeeting
<DarkwingDuck> duanedesign: ping
<duanedesign> +
<seb128> hey
<jibel> o/
 * wendar = pseudoskaet waves
 * joshuahoover waves
 * charlie-tca waves
<wendar> hi all, let's get started
<wendar> #startmeeting
<wendar> #topic Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar
<wendar> .
<wendar> Agenda is at:
<meetingology> wendar: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
<wendar> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-08-12
<wendar> .
<slangasek> duanedesign: could you end your meeting? :)
<slangasek> pseudoskaet... sounds clinical
<cjwatson> hi
<wendar> slangasek: I don't see duanedesign, can we force an old meeting to end?
<highvoltage> did this meeting move to an hour earlier? usually I can't make it but this is nice :)
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: is there any way to end an old meeting now?
<slangasek> wendar: only if we have someone ( AlanBell ?) who can kick it on the server
<apw> last time this occured, someone just /nick'd to the person who should have closed their meeting and #endmeeting'd
<slangasek> ah, but duanedesign is still on the channel :/
<apw> poop
<slangasek> I think we've no choice but to move ahead without the bot to back us?
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
<wendar> thanks, AlanBell
<AlanBell> it didn't do it
<AlanBell> I will try and do it another way
<AlanBell> #startmeeting
<AlanBell> nope . . .
<wendar> let's carry on, then
<Mkaysi> Is there some file which can be edited for meeting to stop?
<wendar> thanks for trying
<Mkaysi> @help config reload
<meetingology> Mkaysi: (config reload takes no arguments) -- Reloads the various configuration files (user database, channel database, registry, etc.).
<Mkaysi> Could do it after editing config
 * AlanBell restarts the bot
<AlanBell> I was going to code something up to automatically end a meeting after an hour of inactivity or something
<AlanBell> try now
<wendar> #startmeeting
<AlanBell> and again
<wendar> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Aug 12 15:10:33 2011 UTC.  The chair is wendar. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<AlanBell> yay
<wendar> yay!
<wendar> onward...
<wendar> #topic Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar
<wendar> .
<wendar> Agenda is at:
<wendar> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-08-12
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar
<meetingology> TOPIC: Oneiric Release Meeting overview - wendar
<wendar> .
<AlanBell> interestingly enough, unloading a plugin isn't case sensitive, but loading it again is!
<wendar> 11.10 FeatureFreeze : August 11, 2011 at 2100 UTC
<wendar> If new features still need to be uploaded,  please follow:
<wendar> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
<AlanBell> and the plugin is "MeetBot"
<wendar> .
<wendar> Upcoming events:
<wendar> - 11.10 BetaFreeze: Aug 25, 2011 at 2100 UTC.
<wendar> - 11.10 UserInterfaceFreeze: August 25, 2011 at 2100 UTC.
<wendar> - 11.10 Beta 1: Sept 1, 2011.
<wendar> .
<slangasek> AlanBell: yay posix semantics :)
<wendar> Bugs targetted for this release can be found:
<wendar> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs
<wendar> Bugs milestoned for oneiric beta-1 are at:
<wendar> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs?field.milestone%
<wendar> 3Alist=39143
<wendar> .
<wendar> Other news:
<wendar> Please take a moment to complete the bug life cycle survey,
<wendar> #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dGZqcm9YS083V19XT1RSMmV1RFJ2U3c6MQ
<wendar> your input on helping us improve our workflow would be much appreciated. The survey closes next Friday.
<wendar> .
<wendar> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished
<wendar> typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/",
<wendar> so we know to wait.
<wendar> questions?
<wendar> ..
<wendar> #topic QA team update -  jibel or pgraner
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA team update -  jibel or pgraner
<meetingology> TOPIC: QA team update -  jibel or pgraner
<jibel> Hey all
<jibel> * Automated Testing progress
<jibel>   * public jenkins is available: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/
<jibel> Test from the private instance will be added to the public instance in the coming weeks
<jibel>   * Created isolated VM environment for DX to run tests
<jibel>   * New tests added to daily run for alternate and desktop OEM install
<jibel> * Follow up on A3 ISO Testing
<jibel>   * bugs from Alpha 3 ISO Testing have been affected to the engineering team or defect analysts for review.
<jibel> * Bug activity
<jibel>  * Top 5 packages with most opened bugs reported during last week (over a total of 471 unique reports (no dups))
<jibel> unity: 50 reports (10.62%)
<jibel> compiz: 26 reports (5.52%)
<jibel> linux: 20 reports (4.25%)
<jibel> software-center: 19 reports (4.03%)
<jibel> nautilus: 17 reports (3.61%)
<jibel>  * 33 reports are regression (7% of the bugs reported over last week)
<jibel>  unity/compiz, ati and intel video driver and various gnome applications
<jibel> ..
<jibel> any questions ?
<jibel> or comment
<charlie-tca> o/
<jibel> charlie-tca, please ask
<charlie-tca> Does jenkins being public mean we can now get Xubuntu images tested automatically?
<charlie-tca> or is that not an appropriate question here and I will discuss later?
<jibel> it is not ready yet, we'll first publish what we are currently running on the private instance.
<charlie-tca> Okay, thanks
<charlie-tca> ..
<jibel> we can talk about it during next qa meeting, please add an item to the agenda
<wendar> Any more questions for jibel?
<wendar> #topic Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
<meetingology> TOPIC: Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
<mlegris> Hi all o/
<mlegris> [Week 32 Testing Report]
<mlegris> A3 Testing this week, ~200 systems being manually tested
<mlegris> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/oneiric-testing/oneiric_alpha3.html
<mlegris> ~100 tested so far, about halfway through the laptop/desktop pile :)
<mlegris> .
<mlegris> Bugs:
<mlegris> ~20 HW specific bugs reported against Oneiric
<mlegris> ..
<wendar> any questions?
<wendar> #topic Security team update - micahg or mdeslaur
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Security team update - micahg or mdeslaur
<meetingology> TOPIC: Security team update - micahg or mdeslaur
<micahg> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<micahg> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/canonical-security.html
<micahg> We are on the trend line for our assigned work items in our blueprints. We are trying to balance reactive security with work items at this time, and are getting to our remaining work items as time allows.
<micahg> A new apparmor snapshot landed before Feature Freeze, there might be a need for an FFe for the dbus mediation, but we'll know more next week.
<micahg> Looking at the list of oneiric bugs, I don't see anything else worth highlighting.
<micahg> ..
<wendar> Any other FFe's likely from security?
<micahg> Depending on if I have time, I might need some for apparmor browser profiles
<micahg> but it's already getting late for that
<mdeslaur> possibly a couple of FFe's to continue migrating away from gksu to pkexec
<wendar> ok, thanks
<wendar> other questions for micahg?
<wendar> #topic Kernel team update - ogasawara
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel team update - ogasawara
<meetingology> TOPIC: Kernel team update - ogasawara
<ogasawara> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for Oneiric Beta-1 is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-11.10-beta-1.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<ogasawara> Last week we uploaded the Ubuntu 3.0.0-8.10 kernel.  This was rebased onto upstream stable v3.0.1.  We've queued some security and bug fixes recently and plan to upload soon.  We are currently trending above our burn down chats and will begin raising any outstanding work items that need finishing with the team.  They are not release critical.
<ogasawara> Of the bugs called out on the agenda against the kernel, status is as follows:
<ogasawara> #542660: looks to be related to EFI boot not loading the video bios into ram.
<ogasawara> #557261: awaiting updated dmesg output.
<ogasawara> #708286: assigned to kernel dev and actively being investigated.
<ogasawara> #754711: on a 3.0 oneiric kernel, system now suspends but doesn't resume.  systemtap debug scripts to help investigate are being worked on for Oneiric, see 815944 (systemtap fix recently posted upstream).
<ogasawara> #758486: updated debug information attached, investigation ongoing.
<ogasawara> #760131: partly fixed in Oneiric and soon natty, more analysis ongoing upstream.
<ogasawara> #784937: investigation by kernel dev still ongoing as well as discussion with upstream.
<ogasawara> #790712: the order 5 allocation seems to be bogus and non-fatal; further investigation ongoing.
<ogasawara> #791850: kernel dev able to reproduce on a CentOS test system.  appears to have isolated the bad commit.  investigation remains ongoing.
<ogasawara> #793486: the requested debug info has been attached, investigation ongoing.
<ogasawara> Questions?
<ogasawara> ..
<wendar> #topic Foundations team update - cjwatson
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Foundations team update - cjwatson
<meetingology> TOPIC: Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> Feature progress this week:
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-ipv6-healthcheck: d-i now supports IPv6.
<cjwatson>  * desktop-o-gtk3-gnome3: Completed Ubiquity port to PyGI.  (This is blocked on resolving webcam-related dependencies before upload, but that should be finished ASAP; Evan is going to write an FFe request.)
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-great-cd-debate: Allison's USB seeds landed (and decrufted).  After discussion with Kate et al, we'll finish converting the DVD images to these next week.
<cjwatson>  * desktop-o-cd-localization: syslinux-theme-ubuntu uploaded, and fixed some associated live-build issues.  The generated images are still somewhat broken, but should be easily fixable at this point.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-ubiquity: Wireless networking page merged.
<cjwatson>  * Upstart: Sprint held last week: see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/upstart-devel/2011-August/001707.html for a summary.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-dhpython-transition: python-support and python-central removed from all Ubuntu CDs by FF.
<cjwatson>  * foundations-o-multiarch-next-steps: skype installable from the archive via multiarch (modulo a Qt fix).
<cjwatson> I don't have a bug update right now, just working our way through them ...
<cjwatson> Also part of the multiarch spec is still pending an LP rollout
<cjwatson> ..
<wendar> Questions for cjwatson?
<wendar> Any FFe's anticipated from Foundations?
<cjwatson> ubiquity as mentioned above
<cjwatson> it's possible we'll need something for the tail-end of localised image building
<cjwatson> I think the apt mirror method is probably shelved for this cycle due to being blocked on IS, but if IS come through on that it's possible we might consider that since the code is mostly done on our side
<cjwatson> aside from that I'm not aware of anything but I will keep the release team informed if anything else does come to my attention
<wendar> great
<cjwatson> (this may reflect my lack of knowledge as much as anything else though ;-) )
<wendar> (skaet asked me to pester everyone about FFe's, so she can look over the logs later)
<cjwatson> yeah
<wendar> Daviey and most of the server team are traveling after the sprint, so we'll skip them.
<wendar> But, I hear great progress was made this week.
<wendar> #topic ARM team update - ogra
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM team update - ogra
<meetingology> TOPIC: ARM team update - ogra
<ogra_> oops
<ogra_> = Full Status is at: =
<ogra_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> = Summary =
<ogra_>  - Parts of the ARM team attended the LXC/server meeting this week.
<ogra_>  - TI/linaro reworked u-boot to not need a separate x-loader package anymore, this will require some changes
<ogra_>    to build system and bootloader tools which will likely need freeze exceptions (the change sadly was only announced yesterday)
<ogra_>  - Cleanup of jasper is ongoing
<ogra_>  - AC100 image is in progess, ac100-tarball installer sits in NEW awaiting review, debian-cd changes are pending
<ogra_>  - mx5 images are in progress, kernel sits in NEW, awaiting review
<ogra_>  - server QA testing is ongoing
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> = Image Status =
<ogra_>  - Desktop images don't build due to archive skew
<ogra_>  - Server images build and install fine
<ogra_>  - Netboot images work fine
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> = Specs =
<ogra_>  - Entire http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel.html
<ogra_>  - B1 http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-armel-ubuntu-11.10-beta-1.html
<ogra_>    (the tracker has only been adjusted today for the new launchpad team name, WI tracker should pick up tomorrow)
<ogra_> ..
<wendar> Questions for ogra?
<dbarth> o/
<ogra_> shoot
<dbarth> GL-ES patches for compiz / nux
<dbarth> do you have the "bandwidth" to take that at this stage?
<dbarth> (there should be a discussion on monday about that in the team as well)
<ogra_> afaik the patches exiswt and are on their way upstrream
<dbarth> right, but i want to get a feel of who's onboard to have that change go
<dbarth> we can take that offline or on monday
<ogra_> ok
<ogra_> it is expected that we ship GLES support in unity in oneiric
<ogra_> so we better find out who adds them ;)
<dbarth> the branch arrived a few days ago, right, we need to find out
<ogra_> afaik it shouldnt be much effort though given they were all written in an upstreamable way for natty
<ogra_> anything else ?
<dbarth> nope
<ogra_> :)
<ogra_> ..
<wendar> #topic Linaro update - fabo or rsalveti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro update - fabo or rsalveti
<meetingology> TOPIC: Linaro update - fabo or rsalveti
<fabo> o/
<fabo> Linaro update - courtesy of rsalveti
<fabo>  * Cross toolchain based on 4.6 for armel/armhf updated against latest gcc update
<fabo>  * linux-linaro-lt-mx5 (freescale landing team tree, based on .38 with Natty's sauce on top) pushed to the archive, janimo will be creating ubuntu images with it for imx53
<fabo>  * Good discussions at Connect about continuous integration and validation for the Linaro components. Upstream and Linaro kernel validation should be the first steps.
<fabo>  * May need a FFe if the x-loader replacement with U-Boot SPL goes fine with Linaro 11.08 release (require image changes for at least omap 4)
<fabo>  * Good progress at bug 810402 by Dave Martin, seems we have at least a valid workaround, what should help with tons of ARM FTBFS
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 810402 in ocaml (Ubuntu Oneiric) "all native ocaml programs segfault on armel" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/810402
<fabo>  * Seems no progress with bug 775849, we had a conversation with Michael Hope and doko, but it seems this bug is still not at the TWG radar
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 775849 in eglibc (Ubuntu) "[armel] eglibc test regressions on armel in oneiric" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/775849
<fabo> ..
<wendar> Any questions for fabo?
<doko> fabo: the TWG doesn't seem to be responsible for it
<fabo> doko: the bug is assigned to the TWG. If they aren't responsible, we should find the right assignee
<wendar> doko: any suggestions on who should take it on?
<doko> ubuntu-arm?
<wendar> sounds like there may be a little bug handoff needed, we can find out if they're willing to adopt it this week
<fabo> well, please re-assign to ubuntu-arm. we'll follow with the TWG in case they find time to look at it.
<wendar> will add it to the action items so kate remembers to check up on it next week
<wendar> ogra: ^
<wendar> other questions for fabo?
<wendar> #topic Desktop Team update - kenvandine or seb128 or pitti
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Team update - kenvandine or seb128 or pitti
<meetingology> TOPIC: Desktop Team update - kenvandine or seb128 or pitti
<seb128> hey wendar
<wendar> hi
<seb128> pitti is travelling back so it's me
<seb128> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<seb128> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/canonical-desktop-team-ubuntu-11.10-beta-1.html
<seb128> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/canonical-desktop-team.html
<seb128> * Reduced activity during a part of the week due the desktop summit participation and holidays
<seb128> * We got most of the feature landed before the feature freeze though
<seb128> * New unity and indicator stack got uploaded on time for the freeze (with quite some bugs though)
<seb128> * Compiz still pending from dx, will likely need a ffe
<seb128> * GNOME 3.1.5 coming next week
<seb128>  
<seb128> * pitti pinged me just an hour before the meeting so I didn't manage to review the bug list, we will do that next week now that the ff is over
<seb128> * the retracers are down, not sure when they will be sorted
<seb128> * we will like have a ffe requests (lightdm, gwibber, telepathy-indicator, thunderbird u1 contacts syncing, ...)
<seb128> ..
<wendar> Questions for seb128?
<wendar> #topic Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth or njpatel
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth or njpatel
<meetingology> TOPIC: Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth or njpatel
<dbarth> hi
<dbarth> full report at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/OneiricReleaseStatus
<dbarth> to add to what seb128 just said
<dbarth> unity 4.8 released on time, along with unity-2d
<dbarth> we have bugs but we're there
<dbarth> the compiz release was scattered later this week: we have test package ready, we're assessing the quality of the latest changes to request an FFE or fallback to an earlier version
<dbarth> indicators got a nice update with the rest of the peripherals support we had planned for O
<dbarth> the touch team has hit 100% on the work items board, with eog / evince support now in 11.10
<dbarth> and we're on top of the upper half of the CJK issue, knowing that the bottom half is now fixed
<dbarth> i take this occasion to remind people about the CJK call for testing sent o u-devel this week
<dbarth> status for the bugs on the radar:
<dbarth> [805063]: on the work list, will start fixing those regressions next week
<dbarth> [806358]: probably a driver issue, passed to Jay for further investigation with the xorg team
<dbarth> [809378]: didrocks on top of it, was fixed but there is a further regression elsewhere
<dbarth> [814065]: invalid, design guidance sought
<dbarth> [810145]: incomplete, investigating to get a reproducible test case
<dbarth> ..
<wendar> Any other FFE's anticipated beyond what you and seb already mentioned?
<dbarth> an update to the music lens maybe
<dbarth> but that's still discussed closely with desktop and the release team
<wendar> a delightfully short list, thanks
<wendar> other questions for dbarth?
<dbarth> hpopefully yes ;)
<wendar> #topic Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
<meetingology> TOPIC: Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
<doko> seb128: when will gnome updates start next week?
<seb128> doko, today, I'm going to upload a few, continued on monday and tuesday next week
<doko> gah ...
<wendar> doko: want to elaborate before we go on to Edubuntu? or, just a passing comment?
<doko> no, just did hope for some stability for a test rebuild
<ScottK> wendar: I'm here now.
<wendar> seb128/doko: sounds like it would be helpful to coordinate a time of relative stability
<ScottK> For Kubuntu we are in good shape for base KDE/distro packages.  We didn't get all the feature work done we wanted due to less manpower this cycle.
<ScottK> I anticipate a standing FFe for additional (tech preview) work on plasma-mobile/active work.
<ScottK> slangasek multiarch'ed qt4-x11 yesterday, so waiting to see how that works out.
<ScottK> ...
<wendar> Questions for ScottK?
<wendar> #topic Xubuntu Team update - charlie-tca
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Team update - charlie-tca
<meetingology> TOPIC: Xubuntu Team update - charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> There were no desktop images all week. We have gotten fresh desktop images today. Don't know if they work yet because the syncs are taking a long time due to the massive changes.
<charlie-tca> * #789333: "users-admin crashes on start because of mixed GTK2 and 3 symbols" - derivatives are working on this, hopefully will have a fix for beta1.
<charlie-tca> * #799238: "Xubuntu i386 and amd64 20110618 xserver abort" - resolved with current xorg
<charlie-tca> * #820731: "Oneiric Ocelot Xubuntu Desktop images fail to install" - Don't know which casper upload fixed it, there were two. One of them did fix the issues.
<charlie-tca> * #820460: "User not created with encrypted home partition: user-setup exit code 32" - fixed
<charlie-tca> Don't really know what the status of lightdm is now for derivatives. Not having valid images made testing difficult.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu will ask for FFe's as they come up. We are waiting for things to settle down now after FeatureFreeze to see how good  everything is. :)
<charlie-tca> Any questions?
<charlie-tca> ..
<wendar> #topic Edubuntu Team update - highvoltage
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu Team update - highvoltage
<meetingology> TOPIC: Edubuntu Team update - highvoltage
<stgraber> highvoltage: around? or should I do the Edubuntu update?
<stgraber> hmm, guess I'll go ahead (quite likely highvoltage is out for lunch at this time)
<stgraber> so not much on Edubuntu's side. alpha-3 went quite well and we didn't have anything big to push by feature freeze
<stgraber> the biggest news is that our installer is now fully translated (took a long time to get it working)
<stgraber> I fixed LTSP to actually install and work but we'll still need to rewrite the current LTSP live plugin as it doesn't work with NM 0.9
<stgraber> we'll file a FFe for the LTSP live work (as it's going to be a full rewrite to use the NM API instead of ignoring it)
<stgraber> I saw that lightdm is now apparently fixed to work for derivatives so that's still on our todo list (as we offer two choices of desktop environment)
<stgraber> other than that, I think that's it for Edubuntu
<stgraber> any questions?
<stgraber> ..
<wendar> gilir is on holiday, so we'll skip Lubuntu
<wendar> #topic Toolchain update - slangasek or doko
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Toolchain update - slangasek or doko
<meetingology> TOPIC: Toolchain update - slangasek or doko
<wendar> they were both around earlier, perhaps they'll pop back on in a minute
<wendar> #topic MOTU team update - tumbleweed
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU team update - tumbleweed
<meetingology> TOPIC: MOTU team update - tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> The usual, lots of FTBFS packages:
<tumbleweed> http://corelli.tumbleweed.org.za/ubuntu-qa/qa-ftbfs/oneiric-historical.html
<tumbleweed> a handful of RC Bugs to look at merging/picking:
<tumbleweed> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/bugs/rcbugs/oneiric/
<tumbleweed> a good number of unfinished transitions:
<tumbleweed> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/
<tumbleweed> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/nbs.html
<tumbleweed> I saw a few new releases and dh_python2 transitions without FFes, this morning. I assume we're giving them some slack for a day or so?
<slangasek> (sorry, I'm here, was just checking with doko which of us should give the update)
<tumbleweed> anyway, that's me
<tumbleweed> ..
<wendar> they should have FFE's, feel free to remind folks who missed
<wendar> questions for tumbleweed?
<tumbleweed> oh, micahg reminds me that he intends to FFe eclipse (if it's possible without breaking the universe)
<wendar> fortunately, eclipse is more of a "leaf" package than a "root node" package
<wendar> but, I imagine skaet will want to do some dependency checking
<wendar> back to...
<wendar> #topic Toolchain update - slangasek or doko
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Toolchain update - slangasek or doko
<meetingology> TOPIC: Toolchain update - slangasek or doko
<micahg> wendar: it is, but its deps aren't necessarily :)
<slangasek> the last toolchain updates anticipated for the cycle have been done
<wendar> micahg: indeed
<slangasek> the latest eglibc from unstable has also been merged up - regressing multiarch support temporarily, but that's worked on
<slangasek> now just waiting for the archive to be in a buildable state generally in order to start test rebuilds
<slangasek> ..
<wendar> questions for slangasek?
<wendar> That brings us to the end of reports. Any other questions?
<seb128> doko, wendar: I don't expect disturbances due to the GNOME updates
<seb128> they are mostly standalone components if they fail to build they should not break other things
<charlie-tca> sure, xubuntu will need ffe's for dh_python2 and libssl1.0.0 transitions needed for xubuntu still
<tumbleweed> surely libssl1.0.0 transitions are RC bugs, and won't require FFe? (they will be packages that can't currently be rebuilt)
<micahg> tumbleweed: yeah, that was a C/P error :)
<micahg> err...C&P
<charlie-tca> ..
<wendar> sounds like that's a wrap
<wendar> Thanks jibel, mlegris, michahg, ogaswara, cjwatson, ogra, fabo, seb128, dbarth, ScottK, charlie-tca, stgraber, tumbleweed, slangasek and all!
<slangasek> thanks, wendar!
<charlie-tca> Thank you, wendar, for chairing!
<seb128> thanks wendar
<wendar> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology is the new Mootbot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Aug 12 16:34:31 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-08-12-15.10.moin.txt
<stgraber> thanks wendar! see you at LinuxCon
<jibel> thanks for chairing wendar
<wendar> see you there!
<micahg> thanks wendar
<highvoltage> (thanks stgraber)
<stgraber> highvoltage: np. I really should add the release meeting to my calendar so I make sure I'm around
<stgraber> (I just happened to look at -meeting at the right time)
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-08-13
<topyli> ircc meeting. jussi nhandler tsimpson elky?
<elky> \o
<tsimpson> o/
<jussi> o/
<topyli> it's probably not nhandler's best hour
<jussi> He said he wouldnt be here
<elky> He already notified he'd be asleep
<topyli> aye
<topyli> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Sat Aug 13 11:03:18 2011 UTC.  The chair is topyli. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<topyli> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<jussi> Remeber this is a different bot
<topyli> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<topyli> grr. i blame the bot
<topyli> did we have any actions from last time?
<topyli> we didn't
<jussi> not that I see
<tsimpson> we do have the previous-previous actions
<jussi> still have this bug open: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/788503
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 788503 in ubuntu-community "IRC Guidelines too #ubuntu centric" [Undecided,In progress]
<jussi> tsimpson: which were?
<tsimpson> that bug :)
<topyli> is it still in progress?
<tsimpson> it stalled
<elky> howso?
<tsimpson> in that all activity on it seems to have stopped
<elky> you volunteering to chase up on those who were contributing?
<tsimpson> m4v posted an sample draft, but that's about it
<tsimpson> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/72478406/guidelines_example_m4v.txt
<jussi> So any ideas on making this go forward? is it just someone needs to go do the work? or?
<topyli> oh i meant to study that but i forgot all about it. bad topyli
<elky> i volunteer topyli then :P
<topyli> i could see what m4v's draft changes and if it's good. i can action that and report in the next meeting
<topyli> does that sound sane?
<jussi> Ill work with you on that if you like
<topyli> i would. won't hurt to have more eyeballs, it's a rather important document
<topyli> #action topyli and jussi to review m4v's guidelines draft
<meetingology> ACTION: topyli and jussi to review m4v's guidelines draft
<topyli> #topic Add eir to #ubuntu
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Add eir to #ubuntu
<meetingology> TOPIC: Add eir to #ubuntu
<topyli> tsimpson: you know how this is going :)
<jussi> Peoples, Im real sorry, I need to run. Something has just come up.
<elky> whaaa...
<tsimpson> it's basically ready
 * elky points at the topic vandalism. bad bot, bad
<topyli> elky: oh good point, need to change that before ending the meeting
<topyli> tsimpson: i haven't been following this very well either. is it in testing as planned?
<tsimpson> looks like it changes it back at the end of the meeting
<topyli> ah
<elky> it probably shouldnt' change at all in this channel...
<tsimpson> topyli: nhandler and I have tested it, the worst way it can fail is that comments aren't added to the BT
<tsimpson> we were hoping for more people to test it out, but testers didn't materialize
<tsimpson> still, I think it's generally usable
<topyli> maybe just go ahead and put it to real life testing in #ubuntu, monitor it and see whether or not it works?
<topyli> if it fails dramatically, we should notice it in a matter of hours
<tsimpson> that's the plan
<tsimpson> as I say though, it really can't disrupt anything
<topyli> yeah, but not having BT comments would be a regression. which we'll notice
<topyli> it's not hard to pull it back if necessary, is it?
<tsimpson> no, only the comments directed to eir would not be added
<jussi> right, Im back
<tsimpson> people can still use @comment or the web interface
<topyli> ahh
<topyli> jussi: quick work, whatever it was :)
<jussi> the emeergency that wasnt
<elky> the best kind of emergency
<jussi> anyway, I say we make the announcement and put eir in.
<tsimpson> we already announced that it was planned, we just need to pick a date and announce that
<jussi> Monday :) then most people are around.
<topyli> yes. how soon can you manage it?
<tsimpson> whenever, I just need to change some @config values
<tsimpson> (it's already in ubottu, just not enabled in #ubuntu etc)
<tsimpson> and we'd need to actually get eir in #ubuntu and -ops-team
<jussi> So any probs then with  monday morning, tsimpson time?
<topyli> monday would give us time to announce it, i'm for it
<tsimpson> we need to actually teach people how to use eir too
<jussi> Maybe we could run a session or 2 on that
<tsimpson> and probably explain exactly what we want to use it for
<jussi> put the logs somewhere
<tsimpson> I think some people think it's replacing the ban tracker
<topyli> i've noticed that too
<topyli> so maybe monday is too soon? should we give it a week still?
<tsimpson> I think the opposite ;)
<elky> i'd give it until the docs are done.
<jussi> mind, this could be explained in the announcement
<topyli> jussi: true
<tsimpson> put eir in there, so people can play with it
<jussi> docs are done already
<tsimpson> docs are available on http://freenode.net/eir.shtml
<tsimpson> it just takes a little getting used to
<jussi> Im still well in favour of monday, if tsimpson can get the announcement written by then
<tsimpson> I'd like to collaborate with nhandler on it too, he's the resident eir guru
<topyli> the confidence level here suggests i should agree :)
<elky> i'm more interested in everyone being prepared for it.
<elky> rather than how fast we can get the shiny toy
<tsimpson> there's not a lot to prepare for, all the eir commands are post-action
<tsimpson> so ops can still act as before, eir is just an add-on
<topyli> people can work as they always have, as i understand this eir doesn't take anything away
<IdleOne> add the bot to the channel and let's get to it.
<IdleOne> we can learn on our feet
<IdleOne> MHO
<elky> then can we vote or whatever rather than this
<tsimpson> all ops need to remember, is to communicate with eir in #ubuntu-ops-team rather than in private (so ubottu can pick up the comments)
<topyli> "MHCO, my humble but corrrect opinion"
<jussi> IdleOne: I agree. it isnt going to affect much if people dont know it yet, they will learn on the fly.
<IdleOne> +1
<topyli> elky: object to tsimpson making the announcement and going ahead with on monday?
<elky> nope
<topyli> alright, no vote
<tsimpson> we already voted for it anyway, this is just the implementation
<elky> any other business?
<topyli> #action tsimpson to announce and enable eir in #ubuntu
<meetingology> ACTION: tsimpson to announce and enable eir in #ubuntu
<topyli> looks like we're done then
<topyli> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology is the new Mootbot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sat Aug 13 11:35:05 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-08-13-11.03.moin.txt
<elky> excellent
<topyli> oh look, it did the change the topic
<elky> can someone see if that topic changey business can be stopped for this channel?
<topyli> i'll do the post-meeting stuff as per custom :)
<elky> i suppose i should ping AlanBell for it.
<elky> anyway, ciao
<topyli> i don't know how bad that is anyway. the topic being discussion might as well be in the topic. why not?
<tsimpson> I tend to agree
<jussi> Its designed like that, and I kinda like it. It outs the old toopic back after the meeting
<elky> i don't think it's quite appropriate for /this/ channel.
<topyli> i also gasped a little at first, but since it does the right thing after the meeting...
<jussi> If anything, it should prefix with which meeting is going on.
<topyli> oh yes
<topyli> anyway, got to go and finance wallet-losing wife's affairs, and mock her
<tsimpson> topyli: and do the post-meeting tasks ;)
<topyli> i'll get them done today :)
<AlanBell> the idea with the topic is it should attempt to change the /topic and if that doesn't work it should speak in the channel
<AlanBell> at the moment it does both
<AlanBell> so both is redundant and is a bug, I can stop it doing the /topic, but personally I would rather stop it talking
<Mkaysi> AlanBell: Are there any channel for meetingology (development) ? :)
<AlanBell> in general it should not say anything, unless it has something useful to say
<AlanBell> #ubuntu-bots probably
<AlanBell> or find me somewhere
<Mkaysi> Ok
<Mkaysi> But you aren't at #ubuntu-bots
<AlanBell> I have a bad connection at the moment so culled my channel list to prevent annoying people
<Mkaysi> Ok
<AlanBell> elky: clearly opinion is divided on the /topic changing feature, would that be an IRC council agenda topic to decide?
<AlanBell> and yes, it should prefix the meeting title, I think there might be some not-quite-implemented code to do exactly that
<AlanBell> the code is all designed and debugged, all I have to do is type it in
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-08-06
<smartboyhw> balloons: http://sdrv.ms/ROS6Cz
<s9iper1> beuno: hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<jjohansen> o/
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Aug  6 18:13:28 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thanks to the following individuals:
<jdstrand> Felix Geyer (debfx) provided debdiffs for oneiric-precise for ruby-actionpack-2.3 (LP: #1030984)
<jdstrand> Mike !McClurg (mike-mcclurg) provided a debdiff for precise for xen-api (LP: #1031375)
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> so, I spent a *lot* of time on webkit and kde/archive admin stuff last week
<jdstrand> the former is mostly done, but I need to follow up with some discussions, etc
<jdstrand> the latter is done for now. There is more that can be done, but I don't have the stamina to do it atm
<ScottK> :-)
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place
<jdstrand> I have a couple of MIR audits left, then after that, recruiting and back to pending updates
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> just published the nvidia driver updates
<mdeslaur> and now I'm looking at koffice and uhm...
<mdeslaur> what's it called
<mdeslaur> calligra?
<mdeslaur> tomorrow, I'll be working on openoffice and libreoffice
<mdeslaur> and will try and get to libxml too
<mdeslaur> that's it for me
<mdeslaur> tyhicks: you're up
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: thanks again for working on that mvidia issue
<jdstrand> nvidia
 * micahg wonders where he went
<mdeslaur> np
<tyhicks> micahg: go ahead
<mdeslaur> hehe, I wasn't sure who was usually after steve
<mdeslaur> sorry for aggravating your OCD :)
 * jdstrand allows goes with longevity on team
<micahg> I'm still working on webkit, hopefully will see the light at the end of the tunnel soon, I'm also SRUing a regression fix from the icedtea-web in natty/oneiric for sbeattie
<jdstrand> that is the only way I can keep it straight :)
<micahg> as well as the standard mozilla pretesting of the week
<micahg> I think that's it for me
<tyhicks> I'm covering triage this week for steve
<tyhicks> My focus will be on updates and working a new eCryptfs data corruption bug
<jdstrand> :\ how widespread is that?
<tyhicks> It is intermittent and only happens when downloading really large files, so it will be a fun one :/
<ScottK> How large is really large?
<tyhicks> ScottK: I've only reproduced it with > 3G files
<ScottK> OK.
<tyhicks> jdstrand: Not too widespread. I've only seen one report on it.
<ScottK> The concerned eCryptfs user sits back down.
<tyhicks> It is very subtle, too. Only one or two bytes changed in the corrupted file.
<tyhicks> (at least in the couple times that I was able to reproduce it)
<kirkland> tyhicks: what bug # is that?
 * tyhicks looks
<jdstrand> tyhicks: let's talk outside of the meeting on how you are reproducing
<tyhicks> bug 1027450
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1027450 in eCryptfs "File corruption in ecryptfs folder" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1027450
<tyhicks> jdstrand: ack
<tyhicks> That's it for me
<jdstrand> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I guess I'm up
<jjohansen> I've got a couple of apparmor bugs to look into, cboltz's profile cache failing reported on the ml, and a no new privs issue from hallyn,
<jjohansen> While I am at the no new privs issue, I'll also look into how to deal with that in stacking, it may require us to carry some information in the stack
<jjohansen> I've got a qrt kernel security failure to finishing looking into
<jjohansen> beyond that I'll be pushing out the 3rd iteration of the current patchset with the locking rework, and might include some of the perm remapping, profile hashing and stacking patches with it
<jjohansen> jdstrand: back to you
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/syscp.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libhtml-template-pro-perl.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/network-manager-openvpn.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gridengine.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ncpfs.html
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> I pasted the highlighted packages above
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> There are a lot of merge opportunities for packages listed in http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/. Performing these updates is a great way to help Ubuntu and bolster your developer application.
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<ScottK> \o
<jdstrand> ScottK: go ahead
<ScottK> The Calligra/KOffice issue is in an embedded copy of wv2.
<ScottK> We also have a packaged wv2 that's significantly older.
<ScottK> The code in the area of the fix is superficially similar, but the package doesn't build with the patch.
<ScottK> I was wondering if when you're looking at Calligra/KOffice you might have a glance at wv2 and see if you think it's also relevant to it.
<ScottK> ..
<mdeslaur> it did look relevant at first glance
<ScottK> (I was in a rush on saturday and heaved an updated wv2 at quantal.
<ScottK> It FTBFS.
<micahg> scottK: that looks like a gcc-4.7 failure
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> Thanks.
<ScottK> I'll see if I can find someone to help me with it.
<ScottK> (that or remove the package, there aren't any users for the lib and it's dead upstream other than the embedded on in Calligra.
<jdstrand> ScottK: thanks
<jdstrand> any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen, ScottK: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Aug  6 18:38:06 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-06-18.13.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-06-18.13.html
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<kees> \o
 * stgraber waves
<soren> o/
<soren> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Aug  6 21:00:27 2012 UTC.  The chair is soren. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<soren> Short agenda today:
<soren> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<soren> pitti seems to be on holiday
<cjwatson> here
<cjwatson> boring agenda
<soren> I haven't seen apologies from anyone else.
<soren> #topic Action review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Action review
<soren> Soren: Brainstorm review
<soren> No progress. Vacation and conferences and whatnot. :(
<soren> #action Soren to finish brainstorm review
<meetingology> ACTION: Soren to finish brainstorm review
<soren> Anything else? Meetbot isn't very helpful from last meeting.
<soren> Guess not.
<soren> Gah, laggy connection. Crappy timing.
<cjwatson> anything in IRC logs?
<soren> Sorry guys.
 * cjwatson has a quick look
<soren> There's the thing abut gut 252368
<soren> gut? bug!
<soren> bug 252368
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 252368 in Launchpad itself "Automatically associate DD and DM accounts with GPG keys in keyring packages to allow DDs to use the Launchpad Email interface" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/252368
<soren> It seems mdz was to follow up to the mailing list.
<cjwatson> IMO this is low priority and we should stop caring
<mdz> I didn't
<mdz> OK with me
<cjwatson> I can't understand why we're continuing to worry about it; there are many other more important things to do on LP
<soren> Alright. Officially intentionally not going to carry this over.
<cjwatson> I know we've been asked about it and there is some social importance to it
<cjwatson> But there are lots of other things in a similar position
 * cjwatson skim-reading last fortnight's logs
<soren> I see no other action items
<soren> Moving on
<cjwatson> I don't see anything else carried over either
<soren> #topic MRE for point release mythtv in LTS
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MRE for point release mythtv in LTS
<soren> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2012-August/001357.html
<soren> It wasn't added to the agenda, but I guess we can still discuss it.
<soren> Is anyone here to represent this topic?
<kees> I've been pretty happy with the process (I use MythTV myself).
<stgraber> yeah, would be good to have this approved or rejected soon as they want to update mythtv for the 12.04.1 point release which is getting really close
<kees> I've found upstream to be good about doing fixes only.
<kees> I would be happy to approve a provisional MRE; though it would be nice if they had some kind of test suite.
<soren> superm1: Just in time :)
<stgraber> hey superm1
<superm1> hi folks
<stgraber> superm1: we're discussing your MRE request at the moment
<stgraber> do you know what kind of testing is done upstream for their stable release? do they have any kind of automated testing or strong manual testing prior to release?
<soren> (/msg'ed relevant scrollback)
<superm1> stgraber: yeah soren just shared with the scrollback, thanks soren
<soren> np
<superm1> stgraber: they have automated build testing, but other than that it's strong manual testing prior to point releases
<superm1> they heavily push the community to use their stable branch at all times when a problem comes up
<soren> Do they have multiple branches, so this is a maintenance branch while there's another one where the dev focus is?
<superm1> yes
<superm1> they have a fixes branch for every major release
<superm1> and a master branch for development
<superm1> no new features come to the fixes branch for any of the releases for any reason, it's solely bug fixes
<soren> How long are these branches usually maintained?
<superm1> up until the next major release
<soren> Is that time-based?
<superm1> they're moving to time based now i believe
<superm1> they were previously feature based (it'll be done when it's done)
<superm1> but they're pushing features out for later releases if they're not going to be ready in time, and doing development in topic branches to merge
<soren> Cool.
<soren> I don't have any other questions.
<soren> Anyone else?
<superm1> and to be clear, this is just for asking for the micro releases of the 0.25 release (which only one is expected), i don't think it will be appropriate to push to 0.26 ever to -updates, only maybe -backports
<soren> Oh, one more thing:
<soren> Is this just a single source package or do we need a list somewhere?
<cjwatson> It sounds reasonable enough to me
<superm1> single source package
<superm1> it used to be multiple source packages, but was a mess to sync up with archive skew
<soren> Cool.
<soren> Alright.
<soren> #vote Approve MRE for MythTV
<meetingology> Please vote on: Approve MRE for MythTV
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<soren> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from soren
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<soren> mdz, kees:
<mdz> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from mdz
<soren> Going once..
<soren> Going twice
<soren> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Approve MRE for MythTV
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<superm1> great, thanks guys
<stgraber> superm1: FWIW I'm also granting you a 12.04.1 exception, so if you want it in the point release, please make sure it's uploaded ASAP
<superm1> stgraber: it's in the queue, just needs accepting
<soren> Lovely.
<soren> Moving on.
<soren> #topic check up on community bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: check up on community bugs
<soren> So, given our discussion earlier, I'm going to go ahead an unassing us from https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/252368
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 252368 in Launchpad itself "Automatically associate DD and DM accounts with GPG keys in keyring packages to allow DDs to use the Launchpad Email interface" [Low,Triaged]
<soren> As for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/174375
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 174375 in Launchpad itself "Distribution drivers permissions may need redesign" [Low,Triaged]
<mdz> I'm having network issues right now
<mdz> lagging a lot
<soren> I'm not sure what we need to discuss here still.
<soren> I guess I'm not the only one.
<cjwatson> We still need to get ubuntu-release-nominators out of ubuntu-release somehow; that team is a hack
<cjwatson> To some extent we've just moved the problem (albeit to somewhere less damaging)
<soren> I guess I'm not actually clear on what *we* are meant to do here.
<cjwatson> Specify what should be done on behalf of Ubuntu
<cjwatson> I think I might be able to take an action to progress this
<cjwatson> Since I think I understand both the security model we want and the relevant bits of LP code
<soren> Perfect!
<soren> Given that the individual stakeholders are who they are, it seems a bit awkward for us to have to drive it.
<cjwatson> But I currently have a toddler sitting on my lap so not so much right now
<soren> Well, this too has been sitting in LP for years.
<soren> Another day won't matter much.
<soren> Great.
<soren> #action cjwatson to look into https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/174375
<meetingology> ACTION: cjwatson to look into https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/174375
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 174375 in Launchpad itself "Distribution drivers permissions may need redesign" [Low,Triaged]
<cjwatson> We can't in general assume that the LP team understands what Ubuntu wants to get out of their security model - we have to tell them
<cjwatson> And the TB is the owner of the Ubuntu object in LP
<soren> cjwatson: Understood. I was rather thinking it would be delegated to the stakeholders on the Ubuntu side.
<cjwatson> Please no
<soren> ..but if you're doing it, we're covered for sure.
<cjwatson> We understand it better :)
<soren> Very well.
<cjwatson> The stakeholders are liaisons, not necessarily decision-makers
<cjwatson> (With that hat on, anyway)
<cjwatson> (Or at least that's how I understand it)
<soren> Well, we'd certainly have final say in it, but it's hard for us as a group to actually drive this issue forward.
<soren> But this is all academic since you've accepted the action item :)
<cjwatson> Yes; but nobody else really can either :)
<cjwatson> Yeah
<soren> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business?
<cjwatson> We made excellent progress on it a while back in an in-person TB meeting, actually - we just haven't finished the job
<cjwatson> Nothing else from me
<mdz> none here
<soren> Who's the next chair? stgraber?
<stgraber> sounds right
<soren> #info Next meeting is set for Aug 20th, 2100 UTC. Chair is stgraber
<soren> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Aug  6 21:34:04 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-06-21.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-06-21.00.html
<soren> Thanks everyone.
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-08-07
<smartboyhw> What meetings are here today? The calendar's changed to pm. s, so I now were confused.
<jamespage> o/
<hallyn> \o
 * hallyn waits for a few more waves before starting
<adam_g> o/
<jimbaker> hi everyone
<hallyn> good morning :)
<hallyn> ooh we have utlemming too
<hallyn> all right then i'll start
<hallyn> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Aug  7 16:01:55 2012 UTC.  The chair is hallyn. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<hallyn> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<hallyn> none
<hallyn> #topic Quantal Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Quantal Development
<hallyn> jamespage: over to you :)
<jamespage> ta
<jamespage> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/ubuntu-server.html
<jamespage> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/ubuntu-server.html
<hallyn> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/ubuntu-server.html
<hallyn> hm
<jamespage> I had a review earlier today - a few to focus in on
<jamespage> utlemming,
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-cloud-images
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-awstools
<jamespage> just a checkin to make sure you are comfortable/on track with those two
<utlemming> yeah, one of the first, the motu's don'
<jamespage> smoser, utlemming:
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-cloud-init-utils
<utlemming> want everything in debian, and there is a freeze in place
<jamespage> utlemming, I'm sure kamal can get some new packages into unstable for you :-)
<utlemming> on the cloud-image roundtable, that should be okay
<smoser> jamespage, well, they're clearly behind and i'm sure some things will be postponed.
<jamespage> Ursinha:
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-bug-triage-review
<jamespage> we still need to catchup on that one - are you going to have some time for report updates etc?
<jamespage> m_3, jimbaker:
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-juju-charm-unit-tests
<jamespage> lots of stuff in progress - all OK?
<jimbaker> jamespage, yes, we should be getting this connected up this week
<Ursinha> jamespage, I've been working on reports, I need to catch up with you later
<jamespage> jimbaker, great!
<jamespage> Ursinha, fantastic
<jamespage> sounds like things are moving along
<jimbaker> i have the first goaround in terms of running manually with a nice DSL in bash
<jimbaker> then hook up to m_3's charmtester charm
<jamespage> remember feature freeze is on the 23 august (~2 weeks) - so any new stuff targetting main ideally needs to be in archive by then
<jamespage> otherwise you have to beg for feature freeze exceptions....
<jimbaker> jamespage, that's been my fate in the past on the juju project :)
<jimbaker> but time to squeeze it all in!
<jamespage> \o/ - great
<jamespage> so keep on updating blueprints as you complete stuff - helps keep overall track on progress
<jamespage> so - http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<jamespage> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<jamespage> hallyn, bot does not like me for some reason
<jimbaker> jamespage, cool, m_3 and i were discussing this very stuff yesterday re blueprint updating
<hallyn> jamespage: link didn't work for me either
<hallyn> #LINK http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<hallyn> [LINK] http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<hallyn> <shrug>
<jamespage> OK - so zul and adam_g have a few bugs in quantum and horizon in hand
<zul> to say the least
<hallyn> uh, MIR for netcf is not on the list
<jamespage> we still need a volunteer to look at bug 844995
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 844995 in python-couchdb (Ubuntu) "Drop support for couchdb related packages" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/844995
<jamespage> any takers?
<jamespage> (I'll sponsor it if someone wanted to have a first stab at some packaging updates...)
<jamespage> hallyn, netcf - I'll need to subscribe ubuntu-server to the package for bugs - then it will appear
<jamespage> looks like we have *alot* of MIR's in flight
<hallyn> jamespage: great, thanks
<jamespage> hallyn, done
<hallyn> \o/  we'll wnat that anyway
<jamespage> if you are raising MIR's please can you set a priority on the bug reports; at a minimum it helps prioritize focus for the MIR team
<jamespage> should probably reflect the priority of the associated blueprint - remember you can link bugs to blueprints as well so they can be tracked on status.ubuntu.com
<jamespage> any other quantal dev stuff anyone wants to raise?
<hallyn> (i'll wait until smb's section :)
<jamespage> hallyn, I think thats me done then
<hallyn> thanks!
 * smb shudders
<hallyn> #topic 12.04.1 Development (jamespage & smoser)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: 12.04.1 Development (jamespage & smoser)
<hallyn> uh, and straight back to you? :)
<jamespage> unless smoser wants the spot :-)
<hallyn> smoser: \o
<smoser> hey
<smoser> so. basically the target for 12.04.1 is thursday
<rbasak> o/
<smoser> if you're not going to have something in by then, then you should really consider it not in for 12.04.1 and retarget anything to -updates.
<smoser> thats my general comment
<hallyn> and http://people.canonical.com/~jamespage/server-sru/precise-sru.html is the definitive list?
<jamespage> yeah - thats a good source
 * jamespage must get the integrated somewhere more formal
<smoser> do you have anything specific, jamespage ?
<jamespage> we need to nudge walinuxagent forwards but aside from that I think we are in an OK place
<hallyn> moving along then,
<hallyn> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<hallyn> i assume quite a few people going to plumber's and associated events?
<hallyn> or not :)
<hallyn> any other events to mention?
<hallyn> moving along,
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hallyn> hey hggdh
<smoser> hallyn, are you going to plumbers?
<hallyn> smoser: i am not :(
 * smb is
<hallyn> no hggdh , moving along
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<hallyn> hey smb
<smb> hey hallyn
<smb> So wassup?
<jimbaker> i am presenting juju at 3 separate events around boulder in the next 3 months: boulder lug, big data meetup (focused on zookeeper and how we use it, along w/ hadoop, etc), and the national center for atmospheric research
<hallyn> my q was on bug 1031090
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1031090 in linux (Ubuntu) "kvm_intel not loadable in a quantal guest" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1031090
<smb> Not much to bring up specifically. The failure to load the kvm intel module is in progress. The upstream discussion is/was mostly on how/where to fix it (the right way). But rather will need to go into precise.
<hallyn> is the fix for that known, or are you just saying "when someone whips up a fix we'll take it"?
<hallyn> but precise is on 3.2 i thought?
 * smb notes he was about to say something about tit
<smb> hallyn, Right, the problem is that loading the modules checks a msr for a feature which any real cpu would have
<hallyn> (jimbaker is a travelin' fool)
<hallyn> smb: right but i thought one comment said it was introduced in 3.3
<smb> but the older kvm modules did not set it for the nested case
<smb> hallyn, Introduced yes as in adding the support for that feature
<smb> but upstream thinks rather than handling the non-presence (which should not happen) in newer coder
<smb> *code
<hallyn> ah
<smb> the old code should add it
<smb> And I think 3.2 is about the only kernel that supports nesting and misses it
<hallyn> we were never at war with eurasia, and that bug was never there
<smb> Could be wrong though, then it needs backport to before
<hallyn> smb: if we were to add itot the old code, is it simple to do?  should we just do it to hit 12.04.1?
<hallyn> eh, let's discuss in -server after the meeting?
<smb> hallyn, ok, it would be simplish (hopefully safe)
<hallyn> great, thanks
<smb> hallyn, but yeah, lets move this on
<hallyn> any other questions for smb?
<hallyn> from smb? :)
<smb> nothing mmore
<hallyn> thanks smb.  moving on,
<hallyn> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Nothing to report. Any questions for me?
<jimbaker> rbasak, i assume good outcome of the java mtg i missed when i was on vac?
<rbasak> Yeah I think so
 * rbasak tries to remember
<rbasak> I think jamespage was more involved in that than I was
<jamespage> jimbaker, ok-ish
<jimbaker> no worries, i *might* have some insight on any java issues
<jamespage> still no java 7 JVM implementation - soon!
<hallyn> moving on?
<jimbaker> so there are good results posted on the openjdk for java 7 on arm. anyway, i'll need to get onto arm hw soon enough for the testing doing w/ m_3
<jimbaker> so look then too
<hallyn> any bounds on 'soon enough'?
<jamespage> hallyn, not really - it has focus upstream but the invoke-dynamic stuff is proving complex to implement
<hallyn> ok
<hallyn> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<jamespage> I have one for next week - I invited gema from the QA team to come and give us an overview of whats happing in QA this cycle
<hallyn> cool
<jamespage> specifically the new testing framework (UTAH) and how we can get more involved with test cases etc...
<hallyn> yup, i still need to do that for lxc testcases
<hallyn> (this might nudge me along)
<hallyn> anything else?
<hallyn> going twice,
<hallyn> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<hallyn> Tuesday Aug 14, same time as always
<hallyn> thanks everyone
<hallyn> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Aug  7 16:37:24 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-07-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-07-16.01.html
<jamespage> thanks hallyn
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Aug  7 17:00:11 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Quantal
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<henrix> o/
<kamal> o/
<herton> o/
<sforshee> o/
<smb> \o
<apw> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<sconklin> \o
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Q/omap4: porting of tilt-3.4 [1] on top of Q 3.5 master continues.
<ppisati> The resulting kernel is available here: http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git?p=ppisati/ubuntu-quantal.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/ti-omap4-tilt-34-on-35
<ppisati> The entire patchset is available at http://people.canonical.com/~ppisati/ti-omap4-tilt-34-on-35/tilt-3.4/
<ppisati> The "done" directory contains the patches i already ported(1054), "skipped" contains the patches left for later evaluation(29) and "already" contains the patches found upstream(59) - so far 1142 out of 1708 patches were handled, work is progressing nicely.
<ppisati> [1]: http://git.linaro.org/gitweb?p=people/andygreen/kernel-tilt.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/tilt-3.4
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> ..
<ogasawara> ogra_: ^^ just fyi, see ppisati's status
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
 * ogra_ hugs ppisati 
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/canonical-kernel-distro-team-ubuntu-12.10-beta-1.html
<ogra_> (and ogasawara )
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 3 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-misc          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-q-kernel-versions-and-flavors || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> ||             || desktop-q-clean-old-kernels     || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || bjf         || hardware-q-kernel-misc          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || cking       || hardware-q-kernel-misc          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || ogasawara   || hardware-q-kernel-misc          || 4 work items ||
<ogasawara> || tgardner    || hardware-q-kernel-misc          || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the above table, please review your Beta-1 work items.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Quantal Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Quantal Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We've recently uploaded the 3.5.0-8.8 Quantal kernel to the release
<ogasawara> pocket. This upload includes misc bug fixes, upstream feature enablement
<ogasawara> for Intel HW, and a sync of AUFS (even though we plan to keep it
<ogasawara> disabled atm).  This was also uploaded to the q-lts-backport [1] PPA to
<ogasawara> help facilitate testing of the 12.10 kernel in 12.04.  We welcome anyone
<ogasawara> to please install, test, and let us know your feedback.
<ogasawara> [1] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+archive/q-lts-backport
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Thurs Aug 30 - Beta 1 (~3 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (sconklin)
<sconklin> == 2012-08-07 (weekly) ==
<sconklin> Currently we have 96 CVEs on our radar, with one CVE retired this week.
<sconklin> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<sconklin> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<sconklin> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Oneiric/Natty/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Oneiric/Natty/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<henrix> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (August 07):
<henrix>  
<henrix>  * Hardy - Nothing in this cycle
<henrix>  * Lucid - In Testing; 2 CVEs; (16 commits)
<henrix>  * Natty - In Testing; 3 CVEs; (6 commits)
<henrix>  * Oneiric - In Testing; 2 CVEs; 2 upstream stable release(s); (101 commits)
<henrix>  * Precise - In Testing; 3 CVEs; 3 upstream stable release(s); (212 commits)
<henrix>  
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix>  
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<henrix>  
<henrix> Future stable cadence cycles:
<henrix>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseInterlock
<henrix>  
<henrix> The week of Sept. 6 is the week the last Natty kernel will be built.
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Aug  7 17:05:25 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-07-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-07-17.00.html
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-08-08
<stgraber> f/win 39
<stgraber> sorry
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Aug  8 12:01:41 2012 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<IdleOne> o/
<Pendulum> Welcome to the 8 August 1200 Membership board meeting.
<Pendulum> We will go through applicants in chronological order. When we call your name, please link us to your wiki and launchpad pages and give us a brief introduction.
<Pendulum> #voters IdleOne head_victim Destine Pendulum
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine IdleOne Pendulum head_victim
<head_victim> Good evening all
<Destine> Good evening
<IdleOne> Good Morning here
<Pendulum> Ravi325, are you here?
<smartboyhw> I don't see him on the user list...
<head_victim> Just gotta check in case they're aliasing.
<smartboyhw> Sounds like he's not here...
<Pendulum> Okay, it looks like Ravi325 isn't here. As he's the only applicant, I guess we can put this down as a very short meeting. Thank you to all the board members who showed up.
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Aug  8 12:09:45 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-08-12.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-08-12.01.html
<smartboyhw> ...
<smartboyhw> That's quick.
<IdleOne> happens sometimes
<smartboyhw> Oh man, I will cmoe back in September or October or se.
<smartboyhw> Next meeting: QA!
<smartboyhw> Guys, QA meeting coming in 15 minutes!
<smartboyhw> QA meeting coming 6 minutes.
<phillw> #startmeeting Ubuntu QA Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Aug  8 14:00:14 2012 UTC.  The chair is phillw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
 * smartboyhw waves
<phillw> hi, can those present please say o/
<smartboyhw> o/
<jdl> o/
<phillw> should be a short meeting!
<smartboyhw> OK!
<jdl> just like last time
<smartboyhw> The 1st August meeting
<smartboyhw> is short.
<jokerdino> this shouldn't be!
<phillw> there are no previous actions outstanding
<phillw> #topic Ubuntu update
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu update
<smartboyhw> Ha!
<phillw> is anyone in from Ubuntu to give an update?
<smartboyhw> Hmm...Any +1 (12.10) team members here?
<jokerdino> hi!
<jokerdino> me is on quantal
<jdl> nice
<phillw> balloons: do you know of any breaking news?
<smartboyhw> balloons: Give us an update
<balloons> breaking news?
<phillw> as far as I can see, things are going very well.
<smartboyhw> We are just doing the ISO Testing Cadence.
<phillw> A critical bug on upgrade has been squished
<smartboyhw> YEAH!
<jokerdino> when is the lo-menubar becoming default?
<phillw> #topic other flavours
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  other flavours
<phillw> I'll start with Lubutu
<smartboyhw> OK, thanks, phillw
<phillw> As pretty much seems the case with Ubuntu, the silence on our mailing list can only mean that things are going well. I see no bugs being raised.
<smartboyhw> Great week, then.
<phillw> The devs have closed a couple of niggling bugs and the artwork is under test - no problems reported.
<phillw> That's all from Lubuntu
<smartboyhw> Thanks.
<phillw> Any other flavours present to report in how they're getting on?
<smartboyhw> Anyone from edubuntu, Xubuntu....etc?
<smartboyhw> blank silence...:)
<jdl> (crickets chirping)
<jocarter> well, we usually only do our status updates at the release team meetings anyway :)
<jocarter> (for edubuntu)
<smartboyhw> YEAH!
<jokerdino> i personally have no idea what's going in this meeting. so keeping quiet..
<jocarter> not really sure if it's useful doing the flavour updates here because then they have to do it twice and on differenc cycles
<balloons> phillw, can we discuss the idea?
<phillw> jocarter: this is the meeting of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam
<phillw> #topic Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Other Topics
<jocarter> phillw: ah, ok :)
<phillw> balloons: sure :)
<smartboyhw> That's quick.
<smartboyhw> I added two things to the agenda, where ARE they?
<balloons> jocarter, phillw I can see jocarter's point
<phillw> balloons: indeed, at this stage of testing, things are quiet.
<smartboyhw> o/
<balloons> perhaps we can alter the agenda to not specifically ask for updates from the flavors. We could handle that during the open 'other topics' portion if we wished
<phillw> smartboyhw: feel free to speak :)
<smartboyhw> Ack, where are the two agenda items I added?
<phillw> balloons: sure.
<jdl> i agree with ballons
<phillw> smartboyhw: sorry, I had a cached copy of the aganda. I'll get to them next :)
<smartboyhw> ...
<smartboyhw> balloons, any updates on the testing cadences for today?
<phillw> #topic blueprint updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  blueprint updates
<phillw> has anyone got anything to say on this topic?
<balloons> o/
<phillw> balloons: go ahead :)
<balloons> Let me find the page that lists the details of the blueprints from last cycle
<smartboyhw> Give me the link, balloons.
<phillw> no worries, we are not up against the clock like at some meetings :)
<balloons> In theory, we should be having a look at them as we go through the cycle. I just posted a mid-cycle review yesterday on the work items for the cycle
<balloons> for instance, here's me: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/u/nskaggs.html
<balloons> but as a community we don't have a burndown chart per say.. I know some folks did get items on some of the blueprints
<smartboyhw> Wow, dude, can I get one of these pages!
<balloons> phillw, ..
<smartboyhw> balloons: Receive my PM?
<phillw> balloons: I'm just looking at the link
<smartboyhw> Well, phillw, you'd better move on.
<phillw> it's a little confusing to me :/ The amount of things TODO does not appear to go down as things 'DONE' are flagged?
<smartboyhw> ..
<balloons> phillw, I added to my TODO
<phillw> balloons: ah, okay!
<balloons> it should all burn down... mine isn't a good example persay, heh.. but it works
<phillw> okay :)
<phillw> #topic New Test Case
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  New Test Case
<smartboyhw> My turn.
<smartboyhw> Anyone here please read: http://sdrv.ms/ROS6Cz
<smartboyhw> This is a very mere draft of a new UEFi testcase.
<phillw> smartboyhw: I have to set some time with you when you are available to go through your new test case
<smartboyhw> OK.
<smartboyhw> I need someone to help writing it better.
<smartboyhw> Anyone volunteer?
<phillw> smartboyhw: we'll chat after the meeting and arrange some time when you are available.
<smartboyhw> OK.
<smartboyhw> ..
<phillw> #action phillw to arrange time with smartboyhw to liase on new testcase.
<meetingology> ACTION: phillw to arrange time with smartboyhw to liase on new testcase.
<smartboyhw> ...
<smartboyhw> ..
<phillw> #topic Other Items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Other Items
<phillw> balloons: can I pop something else onto your TODO list?
<smartboyhw> As it turns out, this meeting's long.
<balloons> phillw, heh.. don't worry that stuff isn't all I work on
<astraljava> o/
<phillw> astraljava: yes?
<skaet> balloons,   the burn down chart for community testing is at: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/group/topic-quantal-quality-community-testing.html
<astraljava> Just a heads-up, nothing big to report on Xubuntu (nor Studio), we're testing 12.04.1 images, no huge issues has come to my knowledge.
<phillw> astraljava: thanks :)
<astraljava> Same can be said on quantal.
<smartboyhw> astraljava: You're late!
<astraljava> ..
<skaet> o/
<game2> astraljava: does this have a new lowlatency kernel built?
<smartboyhw> o/
<phillw> thanks skaet
<astraljava> game2: This refers to?
<smartboyhw> o/
<game2> there were no ll kernels built after precise was released
<game2> refers to US 12.04.1
<astraljava> game2: Ahh... precise. Yes, there seems to be some confusion about -lowlatency. I'll try to sort it out.
<astraljava> ..
<smartboyhw> o/
<phillw> skaet: do you have something to add?
<skaet> yup,   just a reminder of the upcoming milestones
<skaet> 12.04.1 will be switching from being built from precise to -updates after this week,  so any testing to make sure there are no surprises would be very welcome around now.
<skaet> 12.04.1 will be released on 8/23
<skaet> 12.10 Beta 1 will be on 9/6
<phillw> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule
<smartboyhw> 12.10 Beta 2 on 27/6
<smartboyhw> Final release on 18/10
<smartboyhw> Coming up: FeatureFreeze on 23/30.
<smartboyhw> 23/8, sorry.
<skaet> remaining features for quantal will be landing by 8/23 (feature freeze).
<skaet> ..
<smartboyhw> UserInterfaceFreeze and Beta 1 Freeze on 30/8.
<phillw> thanks skaet
<smartboyhw> o/
<phillw> smartboyhw: I have posted the link to the meeting for anyone who does not have it as a favourite on their browser :)
<smartboyhw> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseSchedule
<phillw> smartboyhw: go ahead
<smartboyhw> OK.
<smartboyhw> I have a question for balloons: Any updates on the participation for the ISO Testing Cadence?
<balloons> smartboyhw, sure
<balloons> We have had 10 people test now this week
<balloons> something like ~30 results have been reported
<balloons> I am working on trying to be able to show the status of cadence testing and to better explain it since there seems to be confusion
<balloons> I can do that on the mailing list however, in reply to phillw
<phillw> balloons: thanks
<smartboyhw> thanks balloons
<balloons> in short however, the goal is to test each mandatory testcase at least once during the week.. it differs from milestones in that we are not concerned about respins, etc
<balloons> ..
<smartboyhw> balloons: Every once a day is the goal
<smartboyhw> The ultimate one.
<smartboyhw> o/ We need people to test daily images EVERYDAY.
<smartboyhw> ..
<phillw> smartboyhw: that is a goal, but there are insufficient testers. Better that we use our scarce resources wisely :)
<smartboyhw> Well, give me the task to find daily testers, is that OK?
<smartboyhw> I sure I'm find somebody...:)
<phillw> smartboyhw: for all flavours? It will be more than somebody! It would be several hundred each day. This is why the project of automatic testing is important.
<smartboyhw> Only for Ubuntu.
<phillw> but we can discuss that on the -testing channel :)
<smartboyhw> I won't do the lubuntu and xubuntu part.
<smartboyhw> ..
<smartboyhw> Anyway.
<smartboyhw> ..
<phillw> balloons: has any progress been made so that the daily builds do not wipe out what has been tested on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/219/builds
<phillw> #action phillw amend agenda to remove weekly report of flavours.
<meetingology> ACTION: phillw amend agenda to remove weekly report of flavours.
<smartboyhw> !?!?!!?!!?
<smartboyhw> o/
<phillw> smartboyhw: yes?
<smartboyhw> Why did you remove the weekly report of flavours?
<smartboyhw> ..
<phillw> smartboyhw: it was chatted about earlier in the meeting, it will fall under 'other topics' if people from the flavours are present.
<balloons> phillw, you mean in the same way as during a milestone?
<smartboyhw> OK, thanks. But you should put it in the Updates section.
<balloons> this week, although it's harder for you to see the previous results, they are not lost or wiped
<balloons> I am counting and attempting to track them.
<phillw> balloons: yes. otherwise no one knows what has been tested :)
<balloons> phillw, yes, I know.. that is definitely an issue.. But we don't have a good tech solution atm to the problem
<phillw> the only way I can track is by turning on the history which makes for a very long list!
<balloons> if we did a traditional milestone, we'd lose results on the new iso releases
<balloons> let's chat after in #testing
<phillw> okies
<smartboyhw> Ok.
<balloons> tldr, it's a problem, and I want to solve it.. longterm the tracker will get changes to do so. short-term, we need a soltion
<smartboyhw> ..
<balloons> ..
<phillw> anyone else got anything to add for the meeting that cannot be carried over to #ubuntu-testing?
<smartboyhw> No.
<smartboyhw> ..
<phillw> ah, balloons I'm just going to sneak in a quick action for you :)
<smartboyhw> ...
<phillw> #action balloons edit http://qa.ubuntu.com/ to reflect correct time of weekly meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: balloons edit http://qa.ubuntu.com/ to reflect correct time of weekly meeting
<phillw> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Aug  8 14:57:40 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-08-14.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-08-14.00.html
<smartboyhw> phillw: I don't understand the last part
<game2> astraljava: thanks
<phillw> hmmm....
<smartboyhw> The weekly meeting has a correct time...
<skaet> thanks for hosting phillw
<smartboyhw> Thanks phillw
<smartboyhw> Next week chair will be me AGAIN!
<phillw> np. I'll get the wiki updated shortly.
 * slangasek waves
 * stgraber waves
<jodh> o/
<doko> hi
<slangasek> #startmeeting
 * ogra_ yawns 
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Aug  8 15:04:46 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> #topic lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<smartboyhw> Wow, what's this meeting?
<ogra_> (still fighting the last remains of jetlag)
<slangasek> smartboyhw: Ubuntu Foundations meeting, same one that it was last week. :)
<ogra_> smartboyhw, fridge.ubuntu.com has the calendar
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra infinity cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> stgraber ev cjwatson jodh barry bdmurray doko xnox infinity stokachu ogra slangasek
<slangasek> whoo I win
<ogra_> heh
<stgraber> nope, I do :)
 * ogra_ has silver :)
<stgraber> for some value of win ;)
<doko> at least the monologue near the beginning ...
<slangasek> haha
<stgraber> - 12.04.1
<stgraber>  - 12.04.1 team meeting and minutes
<stgraber>  - Went through all the targeted/milestoned bugs for 12.04.1, updated status based on comments and queue status.
<stgraber>  - Verified a bunch of SRUs.
<stgraber>  - Followed wiki page on for release - 1 month and release - 3 weeks, uploading base-files.
<stgraber>  - Worked on getting the images to fit on a 703MB media again, still need to fix i386.
<stgraber>  - Fixed fglrx/fglrx-updates purge bug and uploaded by tseliot.
<stgraber>  - Now digging into bug 1029531
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1029531 in update-manager (Ubuntu Precise) "cdromupgrade from Lucid to Precise failed with unmet dependencies without network connection" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1029531
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>  - Some ARB app review, the app showdown made the ARB New queue reach 140 packages... Still 50 to review...
<stgraber> - TODO this week
<stgraber>  - Continue the work on 12.04.1.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<ev> - Short week; holiday until Monday.
<ev> - Got caught up on email.
<ev> - Got involved in Seb's thread on ubuntu-release about removing the error
<ev>   tracker from Ubuntu 12.04.1.
<ev> - Started implementing Matthew's design for the multiple errors dialog:
<ev>   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker#When_there_are_multiple_simultaneous_errors
<ev>   I've taught apport to export a small dbus service to ensure only one
<ev>   instance of apport runs *until* the user presses the report button and the
<ev>   application window disappears, chugging away adding the gdb information to
<ev>   the report. GtkApplication didn't seem to make room for this concept of
<ev>   releasing the singleton, but if anyone thinks DBus is too heavy/racy for
<ev>   this and can come up with a better approach, I'm all ears.
<ev> - Wrote a tool to calculate the 90 day moving count of unique users. Modified
<ev>   it to allow Ubuntu release specificity. This requires having a mapping of
<ev>   crash ID back to the system which reported it. As we only have data in the
<ev>   opposite direction, I've had to write a tool to create the needed mapping.
<ev>   This has been running in the background for a few hours. Once that's done, I
<ev>   should be able to reply to Steve's request for the day's crashes / 90 day
<ev>   unique user count calculation.
<ev> - Helped webops land the new errors.ubuntu.com \o/. There was some fallout
<ev>   from me running a newer version of Django for development than what we have
<ev>   in production, but we have a deployment in progress to fix that.
<ev> (done)
<cjwatson> Working on a Python rewrite of cdimage, with unit tests.  Once I have it approved for release, it's reasonably far along: e.g. I have publish-daily rewritten.
<cjwatson> Deployed ubuntu-archive-tools client code to automatically approve copies, saving extra error-prone manual approval steps.
<cjwatson> Finished shifting security->updates auto-copies away from lp_archive@cocoplum and into ubuntu-archive@lillypilly (over the API).  We no longer have any cron jobs running as lp_archive.
<cjwatson> Trying to comprehend new image build options in xorriso 1.2.4 - got advice from upstream which I've yet to digest.
<cjwatson> Worked on showing LP UI audit trail for copies (bug 1032857).
<cjwatson> Home internet still busted.  I'm on a mobile hotspot. :-/
<cjwatson> done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1032857 in Launchpad itself "DistributionSourcePackage:+publishinghistory should show the audit trail of copies" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1032857
<cjwatson> Belatedly working on aptdaemon bug 926340.  Almost done - just took a while to remind myself of how to reproduce it reliably.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 926340 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Precise) "aptd crashed with UnicodeDecodeError in _set_error(): 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 9: ordinal not in range(128)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/926340
<jodh> * boot/upstart:
<jodh>   - slanagasek and I worked on a number of branches for the best fix for
<jodh>     bug 980917.
<jodh>   - lots of testing for final branch for bug 980917 (including LXC).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 980917 in upstart (Ubuntu Precise) "Failed to create pty - disabling logging for job [SRU]" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/980917
<jodh>   - my first archive upload for Upstart (for bug 980917).
<jodh>   - working on SRU-ifying bug 980917 and associated precise-proposed upload.
<jodh>   - stateful re-exec: ConfSource/ConfFiles/inotify watches handling.
<jodh>     Discussion with cjwatson. Work still ongoing.
<ev> cdimage unit tests> wow, that will be awesome
<jodh>   - discussions with diwic and TheMuso re updated libjson0 package.
<jodh>   - raised debian bug 684058 on getting libjson0 version 0.10 added to
<ubottu> Debian bug 684058 in libjson0 "libjson0: json-c version 0.10 is now available." [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/684058
<jodh>     Debian (and started looking at how to package that).
<jodh> ð
<jodh>  
<cjwatson> ev: nusakan:~cjwatson/python/ if you want a previous
<cjwatson> er, a preview
<ev> will have a look, thanks!
<ev> oh man, I totes should've used an emoji character to end my report
<ogra_> no barry ?
<stokachu> try xbarry :P
<slangasek> jodh: first archive upload> ah, congrats :)
<jodh> slangasek: thanks very much!
<slangasek> barry's on vac
<slangasek> bdrung:
<slangasek> sorry
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> vacation (two days)
<bdmurray> test case creation for bug 818760 regarding update-manager
<bdmurray> investigation into pkg origins being Ubuntu and reported apport bug 1031978
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 818760 in update-manager (Ubuntu Precise) "update-manager crashed with timeout in readline(): timed out" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/818760
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1031978 in apport (Ubuntu) "indicates a package origin of Ubuntu for Ubuntu systems" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1031978
<bdmurray> testing of bug 1017001
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1017001 in apt (Ubuntu Quantal) "package resolvconf 1.63ubuntu14 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: pre-dependency problem - not installing resolvconf" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1017001
<bdmurray> fixed xulid of firefox-lp-improvements as it was identified as malware
<bdmurray> resolved an issue with arsenal not loading launchpad_config information from json files
<bdmurray> reported daisy bug 1032398
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1032398 in Daisy "oops ids aren't very unique" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1032398
<bdmurray> reported bug 1032822 regarding json formatting at errors.ubuntu.com
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1032822 in Errors "json data returned by API could be more readable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1032822
<bdmurray> investigation into oops reports without a DistroRelease
<bdmurray> investigation into dist-upgrader-all and precise not being up to date
<bdmurray> wrote code to get errors about a package from errors.ubuntu.com and present bug data about them
<slangasek> malware?
<bdmurray> â done â
<bdmurray> the extension was using the xulid of firefox and so was a piece of malware
<slangasek> heh
<cjwatson> which had it first?
<bdmurray> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=779014
<ubottu> Mozilla bug 779014 in Blocklisting "Blocklist malicious "Adobe Flash Player 12.4.0" extension" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<ev> bdmurray: massive thanks for the errors.ubuntu.com stuff!
<bdmurray> the firefox-lp-improvements extension should have had a unique id I just didn't realize that...
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - the 'I hate multiarch' week
<doko> - got feedback for the gcc-multiarch patch from a fourth reviewer after pinging, having two valid
<doko>  points, and contrary points to the other reviewers. fun ...
<doko> - looked at the upstream python3.3 build issue, which didn't have to do anything with the cross p
<doko> atches, but with an incomplete multiarch patch.
<doko> - binutils updates
<doko> - openjdk updates still pending
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> doko: put the reviewers in a room together, and whichever ones survive, implement their recommendation? :)
<doko> I would like to ...
<slangasek> xnox: still here?
<xnox> Bits I did today:
<xnox> * did an upload of ubiquity and partman-crypto to land automatic
<xnox>   recipe for full-disk encrypted installation.
<xnox> * confirmed removal from quantal of:
<xnox>   - ichtux (meta-packages / derivative)
<xnox>   - boost1.46
<xnox> (done)
<infinity> Apparently yes.
<stokachu> xnox: hows that rdepends test suit coming
<ogra_> quite a lot for a vacation day
<infinity> - worked on SRU and AA tasks
<infinity> - worked with lamont on new Panda buildds some more
<infinity> - helped look into CD size issues for 12.04.1
<infinity> - did a couple of merges, and a bit of +1 fixing
<infinity> - worked on eglibc updates for both quantal and precise
<infinity> - possibly other stuff I've forgotten in my old age
<infinity> [...]
<doko> 2.16 for q?
<slangasek> stokachu: are you blocked on that?  I thought we managed to manual rebuilds of the revdeps for our multiarch libs?
<stokachu> Customer cases took priority this week, still running rdepends on a few packages (libgnomevfs rdeps on libreoffice wtf..)
<infinity> doko: That's still a maybe, but for now, just mirroring some SRU backporting.
<stokachu> slangasek: yea im doing it manually
<slangasek> stokachu: ah, is it still ongoing?
<infinity> doko: I need to look at what aurel's done for 2.16 in Debian.
<stokachu> slangasek: yea gnome-vfs takes foreverrrrr
<slangasek> stokachu: note that for this purpose we *only* need test rebuilds of the direct reverse-dependencies
<slangasek> so none of the level2 and above stuff identified in xnox's report...
 * xnox hides
<stokachu> slangasek: im using a script stgraber sent me
<slangasek> ok
<stokachu> so stgraber does that script show only direct rdeps?
<stokachu> i would love to trim this testing down
<slangasek> infinity: 2.16 in Debian> you mentioned something about experimental staging... I guess any of that is still in the VCS?
<stgraber> yeah, it's only direct rdeps for all binary packages built by the source
<stokachu> ok cool
<stgraber> you may be able to trim it down a bit by limiting the list of binary packages to only these that you care about
<stokachu> slangasek: so yea libreoffice is part of the direct rdeps which takes forever
<infinity> slangasek: Right, aurel committed some bits to Debian SVN, haven't had a chance to see how far he got.
<slangasek> stokachu, stgraber: we only care about the ones that build-depend on libgnomevfs2-dev
<stokachu> slangasek: is that for all packages i want to test?
<slangasek> seems to be a much shorter list
<stokachu> just -dev?
<stgraber> infinity: ETA on eglibc in -proposed?
<slangasek> stokachu: yeah
<infinity> stgraber: "real soon".
<stokachu> slangasek: awesome ill do that then... will trim the testing down big time
<stgraber> infinity: before tomorrow 21:00 UTC?
<infinity> stgraber: I'll try my best to hit that for you.
<stokachu> lastly, doing another month of +1
<stokachu> (done)
<slangasek> stokachu: revised list: http://paste.ubuntu.com/1136312/
<stokachu> slangasek: that is a much better list
<slangasek> stokachu: sorry, didn't realize you were wasting time on other kinds of revdeps :/
<stokachu> slangasek: thats cool i was merely just taking the script and running the tests didn't really dig into it
<stokachu> i should have those rdeps tested today then
<slangasek> stokachu: anything else from you for the lightning round?
 * xnox off to volleyball =) bye
 * slangasek waves to xnox 
<stokachu> slangasek: im done
<ev> xnox: enjoy
 * ogra_ fires up the livestream ... to make sure xnox is on time at the game :)
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_> * QA sprint http://ograblog.wordpress.com/2012/08/06/the-bamboo-feeder-automating-continuous-arm-image-tests/ (lots of positive feedback)
<ogra_> * started on flash-kernel vs live-installer fixes
<ogra_> * work started on transitioning all of flash-kernel bootloader handling to use /etc/default/flash-kernel as a source for the bootloader cmdline
<ogra_> * lots of jetlag
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_> * finish live-installer vs flash-kernel fixing
<ogra_> * finish /etc/default/flash-kernel work
<ogra_> * set up a bamboo feeder locally (i brought a bunch of pandas home) to move on with script development
<ogra_> * make flash-kernel upgrades work with the new bootloader handling
<ogra_> * clean up spec items that wont make FF, work on the ones that will
<ogra_> EOF
<slangasek> bamboo feeder> heh
<ogra_> :)
<slangasek>  * SRU processing, focused on 12.04.1 preparation
<slangasek>  * reviewing upstart bugfix branches - now landed in quantal!
<slangasek>  * discussions around how to improve the crashdb client behavior for 12.04
<slangasek>  * investigating EFI netboot support
<slangasek>  * managing secureboot insecurities
<slangasek>  * upcoming:
<slangasek>   * more helping with 12.04.1
<slangasek>   * doc appt. this afternoon
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> any questions?
<slangasek> #topic á¸Å³Çµá¹¡
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: á¸Å³Çµá¹¡
 * xnox there is a bug with slangasek irc client, or so it appears to
<stokachu> http://pad.lv/977964 - if someone has time to provide feedback to my latest comment i'd appreciate it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 977964 in libart-lgpl (Ubuntu Precise) "Please transition libart-lgpl to multi-arch" [Medium,In progress]
<slangasek> hmph, frail bot
<slangasek> #topic Bugs
<slangasek> right, whatever :)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: what's defective?
<bdmurray> slangasek: I don't have anything specific today
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> stokachu: I think ScottK is saying (and I'm inclined to agree) that any changes to precise should be based on the package in precise, not based on the package in quantal - you need to extract the necessary changes rather than just backporting the quantal package
<cjwatson> s/that/is that/
<stokachu> cjwatson: ok
 * slangasek has a peek at http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<stokachu> or should i target quantal and create a new precise bug
<cjwatson> well, the changes need to go into quantal if they haven't already
<cjwatson> but there's no need for a separate bug, since this one is already targeted to precise (and apparently fix-released in quantal ...)
<stokachu> ok ill fix the patch and re-submit for approval
<stokachu> thanks for the help
<cjwatson> bearing in mind I don't know much about this package, this is just generalised sru advice
<stokachu> cjwatson: understood, i think this debdiff was originally done by another team member and i never did any proper inspection on it
<slangasek> hmm, bug #892370 continues to linger
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 892370 in OEM Priority Project quantal "The time zone for China should default to Beijing not Shanghai (when offline)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/892370
<stokachu> cjwatson: i believe its already in quantal
<stokachu> just need to specifics for precise and it'd be good to go
<smartboyhw> Good bug, that 892370!
<slangasek> cjwatson, stgraber, ev: any of you willing to take jmleddy's patch to tzdata and run with it?
<ev> -ENOTIME
<slangasek> maybe that bug is too much to digest in an IRC meeting :)
<cjwatson> Even additions to tzdata should go upstream, IMO
<slangasek> should we ask jmleddy to do that, then?
<cjwatson> Otherwise TZ is incompatible with other systems (e.g. chroots, ssh env forwarding, etc.)
 * cjwatson tries to remember where the translations live
<cjwatson> tzsetup maybe?
<cjwatson> I'm honestly not sure at this point where that lives, and I'm not sure I can promise time to figure it out
<cjwatson> Forwarding the tzdata patch upstream would be an easy way for jmleddy to move forward if he thinks that's correct
<ogra_> or convince china to just flip the names of the cities ?
<cjwatson> Ah, Shanghai isn't translated in tzsetup because we force CN to Shanghai rather than offering all the possible choices there
<slangasek> ogra_: but then the etymology of Beijing would make no sense :)
<cjwatson> So it'd have to be done in ubiquity if we were doing a translation hack
<smartboyhw> But Beijing is the capital
<ogra_> details :P
<cjwatson> Which then wouldn't help the other affected applications, which IIRC there are some
<cjwatson> smartboyhw: we weren't being serious
<slangasek> cjwatson: can you follow up to the bug (or on IRC) to ask jmleddy to get this upstreamed?
<smartboyhw> If you don't fix it, the Chinesee authorities won't allow Ubuntu to go into China.
<cjwatson> slangasek: Done
<cjwatson> smartboyhw: Please don't exaggerate
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> cjwatson: thanks :)
<slangasek> #topic Blueprints
<ogra_> since we are at bugs ...
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprints
<slangasek> ogra_: too late!
<slangasek> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/canonical-foundations.html
<slangasek> burndown's looking a bit rough :P
<ogra_> i'll try to move along with bug 1028905 myself, but i fear i'll need some cjwatson help at some point
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1028905 in cdrom-detect (Ubuntu Quantal) "cdrom-detect in quantal omap4 hangs trying to look for install media on an extended partition" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1028905
<slangasek> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/all-quantal-alpha-3.html shows some 80 WIs targeted to alpha-3 that didn't get in
<slangasek> I know 12.04.1 has pulled a lot of effort away from quantal development for this first part of the cycle, but please make it a focus for the next couple of weeks to get these back on track
<slangasek> and we'll discuss one-on-one if there are things that need cutting
<slangasek> questions/concerns?
<slangasek> oh... 80 WIs is across all teams, our outstanding count is < 10 ;)
<cjwatson> I marked my one of those done earlier
<slangasek> cjwatson: groovy, thanks
<slangasek> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<infinity> I could use a snack.
<infinity> Does that count?
 * ogra_ hands infinity a snickers
<slangasek> only if it's a business snack
 * cjwatson uploads the aptdaemon SRU candidate - can that still make it?
<slangasek> I think it should
<stgraber> cjwatson: yes
<cjwatson> (should be in the queue in ~5 mins)
<cjwatson> ~3 actually
<slangasek> \o/
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Aug  8 15:58:16 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-08-15.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-08-15.04.html
<slangasek> thanks all
<ogra_> thanks slangasek
<jodh> thanks!
<infinity> o/
<ev> thanks
<brendand> skaet, which daily can we use for 12.04.1 smoke testing?
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-08-09
<stgraber> NCommander, stokachu, arges, jibel, skaet, smoser, jamespage: ping
<arges> o/
<jamespage> o/
<stgraber> #startmeeting 12.04.1 team meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  9 14:02:28 2012 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<seb128> hey
<stgraber> hey seb128
<jibel> hi
<stgraber> #topic Action items review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Action items review
<skaet> hi
<stgraber> xnox to liase with ballons, gema and jibel w.r.t. fs/storage testing
<stgraber> xnox: there by any chance?
<jibel> no news from xnox
<xnox> nope
<xnox> but there is progress in utah development, such that this testing can be now feasible
<xnox> will do this next week.
<xnox> ..
<stgraber> ok, cool
<stgraber> Flavor leads participating, please verify that the images are as you
<stgraber> expect, and start smoke testing tomorrow to make sure all the right
<stgraber> 12.04.1 bits are in place.
<stgraber> skaet: did you get any feedback on that?
<skaet> yup,  flavors started testing last Friday,  results coming in
<skaet> not heard of any nasty surprises from them.
<skaet> ..
<stgraber> good to hear
<stgraber> #topic Review of upcoming deadlines
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review of upcoming deadlines
<stgraber>   - today 21:00 UTC: KernelFreeze, LanguageTranslationDeadline, SRU Fix Validation Testing
<stgraber>   - 2012/08/16: FinalFreeze, ReleaseNoteFreeze
<stgraber>   - 2012/08/23: Ubuntu 12.04.1
<stgraber> The plan is to switch images to building from -updates today, though we'll need quite a few more tricks to have them really usable, so it might have to wait till tomorrow or we'll be building an oversized batch with broken upgrade path
<stgraber> #topic Quick look through the current bug lists, checking for progress.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Quick look through the current bug lists, checking for progress.
<stgraber> Not going to paste stats this time as it's not as relevant at this stage.
<stgraber> Verification and fixes of any detected regression should be the main focus at this point.
<stgraber> We're at least still waiting on maas and eglibc at this point, these need to be in -proposed by 21:00 UTC today at the latest and might still be getting their exception declined if it's considered too dangerous at this point.
<stgraber> I'm currently trying to get our alternate image to allow for internet-less upgrades from 10.04 to 12.04, this might require some extra shuffling and uploading later today
<stgraber> as a general rule, if you want something in 12.04.1, upload it to the queue. It's easier for us to then review it here and grant or decline the exception. Poking #ubuntu-release might also make things go a bit faster (if we missed an upload)
<stgraber> any critical bugs that need some hilighting?
<stgraber> taking that as a no
<stgraber> #topic Media oversizedness
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Media oversizedness
<stgraber> The recent live-build fixes have made both amd64 and amd64+mac fit again
<smartboyhw> Yeah!
<stgraber> i386 will need some fixing as it's including an extra langpack making it oversized at the moment
<stgraber> a simple seed change didn't do the trick, so we'll likely need to hack it around in live-build
<stgraber> I'll be looking into that once I'm done fixing the upgrade bug
<skaet> :)
<stgraber> As far as I know, all the other images currently fit, so unless some packages in -proposed got a big size increase, we should be fine
<stgraber> #topic Round table
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Round table
<stgraber> stgraber@castiana:~$ echo $(shuf -e NCommander seb128 stgraber stokachu arges jibel skaet smoser jamespage)
<stgraber> stokachu NCommander seb128 skaet stgraber arges jamespage smoser jibel
<stgraber> stokachu:
<stgraber> NCommander: then
<smoser> o/
<stgraber> seb128:
<seb128> hey
<seb128> nothing special, we are hard frozen
<seb128> a compiz SRU was uploaded to fix the arm* build issue from the one currently in proposed
<seb128> discussion is ongoing on the release list about whoopsie on or off
<seb128> otherwise we pushing some fixes to .2
<seb128> we are mostly good at this point I think
<seb128> ..
<stgraber> ok. I guess you'll want to do some poking in #ubuntu-release to get that compiz upload in
<stgraber> skaet:
<skaet> Daily images will be switching from being built based on  -proposed to being built based on -updates after 2100 today.
<skaet> Release Note framework and initial edit for 12.04.1 set up was done.
<skaet> Release Notes are available for updates now.   Fixed bugs have been pruned out and the original 12.04 versions have been archived off.   Plan this time around is to make the release notes reflective of the 12.04.1 image, and include changelogs.   To make edits (adding bugs, documenting new features added since 12.04),  please edit the appropriate wiki linked to from: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseN
<skaet> otes
<skaet> For example: if there is a new server feature for 12.04.1,  a note should go into: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuServer  (the original version for 12.04 is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuServer/UbuntuServer-12.04)
<skaet> ..
<stgraber> stokachu:
<stgraber> oops
<stgraber> stgraber:
<skaet> :)
<stgraber> right, so I've been working on that upgrade bug with slangasek yesterday. I managed to get it working locally but now we need to achieve the same miracle with the alternate media.
<stgraber> Will continue on that today, then look at fixing the langpack list on the i386 daily-live
<stgraber> I also have a bunch more verification to do as the list is kind of long at this point
<stgraber> then maybe I'll even find the time to look at the usb-creator verification failure, though I don't consider this 12.04.1 critical at this point, so if it's easy to fix, good, otherwise, will just postpone
<stgraber> arges:
<arges> I setup the cronjob to upload the point release page
<arges> http://people.canonical.com/~arges/point-release/milestone-12.04.1.html
<arges> Submitted code to arsenal, hope to get things on cranberry and also start putting up pages for 12.04.2
<arges> ..
<arges> oh
<arges> still waiting on http://launchpad.net/bugs/979003
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 979003 in eglibc (Ubuntu Quantal) "libc incorrectly detects AVX support" [High,In progress]
<arges> ..
<stgraber> yeah... infinity said we'd get it uploaded today...
<stgraber> jamespage:
<jamespage> so most server stuff is looking ok; the only straggler being walinuxagent which is currently stuck in the precise-propsed NEW queue
<jamespage> this is required for enablement of the azure IaaS platform
<jamespage> other than that I've been repointing stuff that won't make it to -updates
<jamespage> I'll let smoser cover maas
<jamespage> ..
<smoser> there are not going to be any updates to maas for 12.04.1
<stgraber> good to hear ;)
<stgraber> smoser:
<smoser> i have nothing else really.
<smoser> i woudl say ther eis an outside chance at having a cloud-init change in today
<smoser> but that is low likelyhood.
<stgraber> ok
<stgraber> jibel:
<jibel> Focus on upgrade testing:
<jibel> * defects found with automated tests are mostly obsolete configuration files. I don't know if they are all harmless so I reported a few for desktop and server:
<jibel> bug 1034824 bug 1034829 bug 1034830 bug 1034832
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1034824 in bind9 (Ubuntu) "oneiric to precise upgrade leaves obsolete configuration file: /etc/bind/named.conf.options " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1034824
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1034829 in libcanberra (Ubuntu) "Oneiric to Precise upgrade leaves obsolete configuration file: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/52libcanberra-gtk-module_add-to-gtk-modules" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1034829
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1034830 in libcanberra (Ubuntu) " Oneiric to Precise upgrade leaves obsolete configuration file: /etc/X11/Xsession.d/52libcanberra-gtk3-module_add-to-gtk-modules" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1034830
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1034832 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) " Oneiric to Precise upgrade leaves obsolete configuration file: /etc/lightdm/unity-greeter.conf " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1034832
<jibel> You can have a look to the artefact obsolete_conffiles.log attached to the jobs at https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise/view/Upgrade%20Testing%20Dashboard/ and if you want more, tell me and I'll file more
<jibel> * bug 1034889
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1034889 in sudo (Ubuntu) "Oneiric to Precise upgrade: debconf prompt to update unmodified configuration file: /etc/sudoers" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1034889
<jibel> * I've been hit by bug 979661 during an upgrade from Oneiric (debconf failed to load GTK). It seems to occur rather frequently. but need latest update-manager to verify the workaround really works
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 979661 in update-manager (Ubuntu Quantal) "oneiric to precise: debconf: unable to initialize frontend: Gnome and falls back to Dialog" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/979661
<jibel> * Community bugs:
<jibel>     bug 1034794: if someone from foundations could have a look
<jibel>     bug 1034668: for the desktop team
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1034794 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "10.04 -> 12.04 upgrade should remove live-initramfs" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1034794
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1034668 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Upgrade from Lucid to Precise does not install packages for Global Menu: indicator-appmenu" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1034668
<jibel> todo:
<jibel> * verification of bug 1029531 in progress but failing at the moment, waiting for openoffice to be accepted and seeded.
<jibel> furthermore the CD contains update-manager 0.156.14 instead of 0.156.14.8 (-proposed) or .6 (-updates)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1029531 in update-manager (Ubuntu Precise) "cdromupgrade from Lucid to Precise failed with unmet dependencies without network connection" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1029531
<jibel> One request:
<jibel> Would it be possible to update UpgraderTool in http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/meta-release-development to point to the version in precise-updates (or better precise-proposed) if that makes sense ?
<jibel> It currently points to the version from the release pocket and makes testing versions from proposed and updates a bit harder, and people who are currently upgrading to precise with -d doesn't use the latest version.
<jibel> Installation smoke testing;
<jibel> Nothing found for the moment.
<jibel> ..
<skaet> jibel,  we'll be switching the builds to be from -updates later today,  so probably not make sense to switch now.
<skaet> however,  something to note for 12.04.2
<stgraber> mvo: ^
<skaet> ..
<jibel> skaet, will that pull the release-upgrader from -updates too ? because currently for example alternate is built with packages from -proposed but the upgrader is from -release
<slangasek> switching to -updates today?  I thought the switch wasn't meant to be until we're farther along with the SRU promotion?
<skaet> slangasek,  schedule discussed was we'd be switching the dailies to be built from -updates today,  rather than -proposed,  to ready for final freeze.
<slangasek> hmm
<slangasek> except that means no more image-based testing of the stuff that's currently in -proposed and not ready for promotion
<slangasek> and since we're iterating CD upgrade fixes, that's rather significant
<skaet> hmm..
<slangasek> perhaps we should push back the switch?
<stgraber> yeah, that's why I said earlier that I'm not going to do the switch until we have a test image that upgrades fine and isn't oversized
<slangasek> ok
<skaet> lets discuss further in #ubuntu-release then after the meeting.
<stgraber> I don't necessarily mind regressing with the switch to -updates as long as I know that the fixes in -proposed are correct and will indeed fix the image when they land (or the SRU team can decide to let them through to -updates before the 7 days)
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 12.04.1 team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<stgraber> ok, let's get back to work :)
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  9 14:38:21 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-09-14.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-09-14.02.html
<mvo> jibel: sure I can update meta-release-development
<seb128> thanks
<skaet> thanks stgraber
<jibel> thanks stgraber
<mvo> jibel: meta-release-development and/or meta-release-lts-development?
<jibel> mvo, well, skaet wants to wait until builds are from -updates
<mvo> jibel: ok, just shout and I update it immediately
<jibel> mvo, ok, thank you
<micahg> anyone here for the MOTU meeting?
 * dholbach is here, but will have to run for 3-4 minutes
 * iulian waves.
 * iulian is here on and off.
<micahg> let's wait a couple minutes to see if anyone else shows up
<jtaylor> <
<dholbach> micahg: shall we just start and see who joins in? :)
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  9 16:03:34 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<dholbach> welcome everybody to the MOTU meeting
<dholbach> we have our agenda over here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<dholbach> #topic Killing off sqlite 2 (src:sqlite)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Killing off sqlite 2 (src:sqlite)
<dholbach> anyone here to discuss the topic? :)
<micahg> o/
<dholbach> awesome
<jtaylor> I can probably help out to but I'm not familiar with the situation
<dholbach> micahg: can you enlighten us about what's planned?
<micahg> So, this is something I wanted to do for precise, but ran out of time, I've repeatedly requested for the removal from Debian without success, so I figure we can push things forward by JFDI in Ubuntu and pushing up patches
<micahg> we have to fix up the remaining reverse dependencies to drop sqlite 2 support as was done for applications in main for precise
<dholbach> micahg: does this involve major porting work or is it something we could make part of our bug fixing initiatives?
<micahg> sometimes it's a flag, there might be a little porting work, I'd be fine with dropping anything that requires porting until it's done upstream (I would venture that most upstreams probably have already done this, it might not be packaged yet though)
<jtaylor> how many packages are affected?
<Laney> can we get a tracker?
<micahg> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1138024/
<micahg> Laney: sure, sounds like a good idea
<Laney> nice
<micahg> the list is much smaller than it was in precise FWIR
<dholbach> the python-sqlite rdeps would likely need to go too?
<dholbach> or rather be updated
 * xnox is testing ben tracker file locally
<Laney> good old xnox
<micahg> yeah, updated to use python-pysqlite2
<dholbach> old?
<dholbach> :-P
<Laney> who still doesn't love motu enough to hang around in our channel :(
<dholbach> good old public shaming
<micahg> only about 10 rdepends on python-sqlite
<Laney> now that /is/ old
<dholbach> micahg: I'm happy to advertise the initiative as part of the bug fixing initiatives - maybe not for new contributors, but still it'd be good to get some eyeballs on it - maybe we should talk after the meeting about what we need to do for this
<micahg> ok
<dholbach> it doesn't look like anybody has major objections to getting this done :)
 * xnox rumbles something about DD and motu
<dholbach> micahg: do you feel we have a good enough way forward to getting sqlite out of the archive?
<micahg> dholbach: I think so
<dholbach> fantastic
<dholbach> moving on then
<dholbach> #topic update from Developer Advisory Team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: update from Developer Advisory Team
<dholbach> I don't have much to report, as I was on holidays
<dholbach> but I'm happy to report that we have a bunch of new contributors in quantal already who we're reaching out to
<dholbach> we are still looking for new contributors to the DAT, so if you're interested in the social aspects of Ubuntu Development just ping me
<dholbach> any questions about the DAT?
<dholbach> ok, moving on :)
<dholbach> #topic review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/BugFixingInitiative
<dholbach> it looks like it hasn't been updated in a while, so it'd be good to review it and see what we might want to add or replace on there
<dholbach> micahg and I will add something about the sqlite situation - anyone else who would like to advertise some necessary work in the archive?
<micahg> well, I've got something else, but not for the list
 * xnox boost1.50 transition quantal or R-series?
<dholbach> now is a probably a good time to get new or reemerging contributors involved as quantal is likely less daunting to run on a regular basis :)
<dholbach> micahg: an initiative you'd like to propose or a new/separate topic?
<micahg> dholbach: initiative, but only for existing MOTUs
<micahg> not to be exclusive
<dholbach> which one is that?
<micahg> ghc rebuilds :)
<dholbach> xnox, I can't give you a proper answer on this, but I could imagine that ScottK might know more - wasn't this discussed at some stage on the ubuntu-devel@ list already?
<dholbach> micahg: I'll do the minutes later on and am happy to mention it in there if that suits you
<ScottK> xnox: R.
<micahg> xnox: I think we have enough cleanup for quantal without starting another boost transition
<xnox> ScottK: micahg: agreed.
<dholbach> ok, that's settled then :)
<ScottK> Pick your boost at release open and don't change without a very good reason.
<micahg> dholbach: yeah, if anyone wants to help, just link to the tracker: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/ghc.html , I think we're coordinating in -motu for it
<xnox> ScottK: micahg: where/how do we add tasks for R archive opening? it would help to have boost-defaults uploaded at archive opening, same as it was done for Q
<dholbach> thanks a lot micahg
<ScottK> In fact, I'd be inclined to stick with 1.49 until after Wheezy releases and Debian changes.
<ScottK> xnox: You have to remember to do it and talk to doko/cjwatson to coordinate.
<ScottK> We should discuss it though.
<micahg> there's a wiki page for archive opening tasks
<xnox> ok. I'll take it to mailing list closer to R opening.
<dholbach> ok - anything else we should be pointing new (or other work-seeking) contributors towards?
<ScottK> Sounds good.
<micahg> fix Debian RC bugs so wheezy can release :)
<dholbach> alright, I guess we can move on then - I'll have a look over it tomorrow again and blog about it
<dholbach> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business?
<dholbach> I'm not sure why "Update MOTU/FAQ" is still on the agenda
<dholbach> I'll remove it - it seems like Bhavani already updated it
<micahg> o/
<dholbach> micahg: go
<cjwatson> xnox: Feel free to add stuff to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewReleaseCycleProcess if it's been discussed.
<cjwatson> (Or is obviously sensible.)
<micahg> just a reminder that backports is a great way to get newer software into old releases without having to fiddle with PPAs, get the version you want into the dev release and run the requestbackport script from ubuntu-dev-tools (12.04+), the script will let you know what testing needs to be done
<micahg> oh, also, did we get anywhere with -backports open at feature freeze yet?
<dholbach> maybe a blog post about this would be good to have too?
<micahg> dholbach: yeah, I've been meaning to set up a blog
<dholbach> fantastic
<micahg> cjwatson: can we do backports open at feature freeze yet?
<cjwatson> I don't recall.  Wasn't there a work item or a bug or something?
<Laney> there was some launchpad change but I always forget what it is
<Laney> pretty sure ajmitch got the work item though :-)
<micahg> sleeptold, I think that's a new one...
<dholbach> ok, any other other business? :)
<dholbach> perfect - I'll get out the minutes tomorrow
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone! :)
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  9 16:32:41 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-09-16.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-09-16.03.html
<Laney> hang on
<Laney> oh, nm
<micahg> thanks dholbach
<Laney> I felt a thought formulating
<dholbach> Laney, sorry - what did you want to talk about?
<Laney> I was thinking the other day about the plusonemaint team
<Laney> and how the people there tend to come up with little projects to get done
<Laney> it just occurs to me that there could be some sharing to be done there
<Laney> that is all, it's quite a nebulous thought
<dholbach> Laney, do you think it could help to bring up the idea in a mailing list conversion so we could all expand on it?
<Laney> i'm not even sure what to suggest :P
<dholbach> ok, I'll try to mention it accurately in the minutes ;-)
<Laney> anyway, carry on
<dholbach> and hope you'll have some free time to find out how we could do something about it
<dholbach> maybe it'd already help to mention a few of those little projects to give everyone some ideas
<Laney> just, we could encourage them to send out "this is what we're going to work on this week" updates or something
<dholbach> yes, that'd very likely help
<Laney> not sure how organised it all is though really
<dholbach> maybe bring it up on the ML to remind everyone to mention their projects, if suitable? *shrugs*
 * Laney goes to #ubuntu+1-maint
<dholbach> sweet
<dholbach> adjourned :)
<jono> alrighty!
 * cielak waves
<jono> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  9 18:00:30 2012 UTC.  The chair is jono. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mfisch> hi
<jono> welcome everyone to the Ubuntu Accomplishments meeting!
<jono> who is here for the meeting today?
<cielak> o/
<mfisch> me!
<jono> alrighty :-)
 * janos too
<jono> woo!
<jono> so before we start, a quick update on the Canonical IS RT ticket
<jono> I had a response from Canonical IS about us deploying our service there and they are currently evaluating hardware and resource needs
<jono> one thing they made clear is that it is unlikely to be deployed before late Aug due to a data center move]
<cielak> I have a question in this matter
<jono> the good news is that this looks this is going to go ahead
<jono> sure cielak
<janos> nice nice
<cielak> are they going to migrate the server including the U1 setup?
<jono> cielak, yeah
<cielak> I mean - after they deploy the validation server on their machines, will shares keep being active?
<jono> cielak, yes, they should be
<cielak> alright! I was worried if we'll need to somehow recreate them all...
<jono> we are just deploying the same U1 user on a different machine
<cielak> hm, that makes sense
<jono> the sharecheck script int he validation server should reload them all and resubscribe them
<cielak> yeah :)
<cielak> thanks :)
<jono> and the good news is that while we set this up our existing server can still be serving requests
<cielak> won't they collide?
<jono> cielak, they wont collide so long as only one server is processing the jobs
<jono> having the multiple shares set up should be fine
<jono> so we can get the shares working on the IS server while the current server processes jobs
<cielak> aah, so only one signs the trophies, but all can browse then?
<cielak> them*
<jono> right
<cielak> that's cool!
<jono> and then we switch over the signing to the new server
<jono> any more questions about the move?
<cielak> not from me
<jono> cool
<jono> alrighty, so onto 0.3 planning
<jono> so we have a few outstanding MPs to review
<jono> cielak, did you get a chance to look at the big rename branch?
<cielak> not yet, I gave only a brief look ;)
<jono> I know mfisch took a look
<jono> cool, I think should an invasive change will want a look from each of us
<mfisch> yeah I did a couple looks
<jono> and then we will need to port the viewer and lens, which shouldnt be much work
<cielak> although it seems to me that ideally we would merge it together with a similar branch for the viewer
<mfisch> it is invasive but using grep and vi it's easy to follow
<mfisch> yeah the viewer merge should be ready to go
<jono> mfisch, oh did you work on the change to the viewer?
<mfisch> no
<mfisch> sorry I mean should be ready to go before we merge the daemon
<jono> oh I see
<jono> yeah, I agree
<jono> one other point
<jono> we should also fix https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1026749 while we are doing this
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1026749 in Ubuntu Accomplishments Daemon "private class names variables should be preceded by _" [Low,Confirmed]
<jono> mfisch, would you be happy to work on this?
<jono> actually that bug is not critical
<jono> I forgot it is about vars as opposed to functions
<mfisch> hold on 1 sec
<jono> sure
<mfisch> yeah I can do that, but it will not affect the API
<jono> yeah, no worrieds
<jono> if you can assign it to yourself that would be cool
<jono> ooh
<jono> we should also fix https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1024085
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1024085 in Ubuntu Accomplishments Daemon "trophy files use date-accomplished, API uses date-completed" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<jono> I am just trying to ensure we focus on API related changes
<jono> anyone want to take this one?
<jono> cielak, which bugs would you like to focus on in 0.3 as we move forward?
<jono> I am wondering if it is possible for us to get some assignments on these bugs
<jono> I would like to open up further testing in a few weeks if poss
<cielak> well, the point is that in 2 days I'll be offline for 2 weeks, so I would rather not assign myself to anything greater to avoid blocking anything
<mfisch> I thought that one was fixed with the big API change?
<jono> cielak, ahhh of course
<jono> good point
<jono> mfisch, oh it is?
<cielak> by the way, I am delighted to see Brian working extensively on some bugs out there :)
<mfisch> jono: looking
<jono> cielak, totally!
<jono> so maybe while cielak is away, mfisch would you be happy to look at the daemon bugs and I will look at viewer bugs?
<cielak> hm, I can take #1033773, this shouldn't take time ;)
<mfisch> jono: unfortately I'm also off and on next week
<mfisch> week after is fine
<jono> mfisch, no worries, so I will try and nail some viewer bugs next week
<jono> and then we can reconvene around the daemon bugs the week after
<jono> and obviously other folks are welcome to contribute fixes too!
<mfisch> ok
<mfisch> are we holding this API change until then?
<jono> cielak, that would be awesome
<mfisch> if it gets stale due to other commits the merge will suck
<jono> mfisch, I would like to get the API change done before cielak leaves if possible
<jono> cielak, any chance you can review the API change today?
<mfisch> agreed
<jono> and then I will take a look and we can commit
<cielak> jono: I'll do my best to
<jono> thanks cie
<jono> thanks cielak
<cielak> I agree this MP has to be merged soon to avoid conflicts
<jono> yeah, so if we all focus on this first I think this makes sense
<mfisch> I'm flying out on Saturday and have a lot of stuff to do here, so I'll be limited availability this week too :(
<jono> I want to dive deep on the viewer over the next week
<jono> mfisch, np
<mfisch> jono: the date-completed stuff is not in this merge
<jono> if we can get these API changes finalized before you guys leave, I can focus on the viewer fine
<jono> mfisch, ok
<jono> we can change that later
<jono> ok so I have one topic to discuss
<jono> I would like to add some debugging tools in the daemon/client
<jono> so when someone experiences a problem (e.g. the trophy not getting validated) we can ask them to run a command and it gives us all the data we need
<mfisch> like an apport script?
<jono> that kind of thing
<jono> right now we often ask people to run through various steps
<cielak> apport integration sounds quite cool
<jono> I would just like to make the debugging experience easier for everyone involved
<jono> any thoughts on how we do this?
<jono> I have never written an apport script before
<jono> would that mean someone can use: ubuntu-bug accomplishments-viewer ?
<cielak> examining apport docs might be helpful to recognise what possibilities do we have
<cielak> but   ubuntu-bug   would probably work
<cielak> although
<jono> that would be cool
<cielak> I expect it would report bug in Ubuntu package, instead of our project :)
<cielak> maybe this can be tuned up
<jono> particularly someone can select the issue in the debug window
<jono> e.g. my trophies were not validated
<cielak> yay, that would provide an awesome experience
<jono> indeed :-)
<jono> what would be cool is if the following happens:
<jono>  * someone files a bug that their trophies were not validated
<jono>  * a script checks if they have an account on LP, checks the remove share, and posts the report to the bug
<jono> so the entire debugging process is automated
<cielak> hang on a second
<cielak> why would it check for a LP account?
<cielak> to see if the trophy should be awarded?
<jono> I was presuming if the trophy that did not validate was an LP one
<jono> yeah, so imagine this:
<jono>  * the user expects his ubuntu-member trophy to be valdiated
<cielak> oh, then this is very wrong
<cielak> that means we include trophy scripts logic in our apport script
<jono>  * it isnt, so he files a bug, and the apport script would check the remove share to see if the trophies are there, and check LP to see if he has an account
<jono> cielak, no no
<jono> I am just suggesting we explore methods of automating the debugging
<jono> this is just an idea off the top of my head :-)
<cielak> alright ;)
<jono> I am just trying to think of areas in which we can avoid the IRC debugging sessions we sometimes need to have
<jono> I dont think we should include trophy scripts in our debugging support :-)
<cielak> yet the script could simply   ls   the trophies directory to give us an idea of what the user expects and what's not signed ;)
<cielak> yeah ;)
<jono> indeed
<jono> cielak, I just wanted to present the mindset here of what we can do to make things easier for debugging
<jono> we can maybe discuss this more when you guys return from your trips
<cielak> okay ;)
<jono> ok, so this is the plan so far:
<jono>  * cielak is going to work on https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1033773 and try and review the API change MP before he heads out
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1033773 in Ubuntu Accomplishments Daemon "Repeated syncing of unvalidated trophies causes confusing behavior" [High,Confirmed]
<jono>  * I will focus on viewer-related bugs while you guys are away and keep on top of MPs
<jono>  * we will discuss the debugging approach when you guys get back
<jono> sounds like a good plan :-)
<cielak> yeah :)
<jono> cool
<jono> any other topics?
 * cielak has one more
<jono> \sure
<cielak> something about the daemon again, but this time more like the UI design
<cielak> one of the things we postponed for 0.3
<cielak> what I mean is the main notification bubble
<cielak> which says 'You have accomplished something!'
<jono> right
<cielak> I guess we may need to reword it
<jono> oh yes
<jono> what did we discuss last time?
<cielak> not only it looks inconsistent with Ubuntu desktop, but it appears we're dealing with the syndrome of 'talking computer'
<jono> yes
<jono> any thoughts on a better string to use?
<cielak> we discussed that since there is quite a lot of options available, we'll do it for 0.3 so that translators will have time to update their work
<cielak> yeah, quite a lot
<cielak> obviously this has to be an affirmative statement, with a feel of 'notification'
<jono> maybe we can collate ideas on a wiki page
<jono> to choose the best one
<cielak> alright, I can put my thoughts together on a wiki page
<jono> cool
<jono> and maybe mail the list and we can review the options
 * janos don't really see what's so wrong with 'You have accomplished something!' ...
<cielak> alright!
<jono> cielak, did you want to explain to janos your concerns here?
<janos> jono cielak you can do later, that was just me wondering out loud
<cielak> well, since I'll do it in the e-mail anyway, maybe you'll read them there ;)
<jono> ok cool
<janos> yup, no prob
<jono> alrighty
<jono> btw, janos, the web viewer seems to be working great for me
<jono> has imbrandon contributed the new CSS yet?
<janos> btw i noticed meetingology has a command # - action, maybe we could tag some actionable stuff from the above?
<janos> good question, wondering if imbrandon is around...
<jono> he might not be online now
<jono> yeah, I need to learn meetingology more :-)
<jono> ok cool, I guess we will wrap it
<jono> thanks for joining the meeting folks!
<jono> the road to 0.3 continues!
<jono> thanks for all of your wonderful efforts!
<cielak> thanks everyone :)
<jono> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  9 18:42:35 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-09-18.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-09-18.00.html
<janos> see ya, i'll be on the other chan
<imbrandon> jono: i am
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-08-10
 * skaet waves
<roadmr> hello!
<sil2100> Hello!
 * smartboyhw waves
<skaet> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Aug 10 15:00:37 2012 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<Riddell> hi
 * stgraber waves
 * smartboyhw waves
<sil2100> Hi everyone
<skaet> Agenda (and minute location):
<skaet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2012-08-10
<skaet> .
<skaet> Upcoming dates:
<skaet> 12.10
<phillw> o/
<skaet>     2012/08/23: Quantal FeatureFreeze
<gema> o/
<skaet>     2012/09/06: 12.10 Beta 1
<skaet> 12.04.1
<skaet>     2012/08/16: FinalFreeze, ReleaseNoteFreeze
<skaet>     2012/08/23: Ubuntu 12.04.1
<skaet> .
<skaet> Work Items:
<skaet> 2012/08/10 -  3010 (was 3001  (last  week):   Weâve gotten behind the trendline for some of the projects.    There are only 2 weeks left until FeatureFreeze, so getting us back on track would be appreciated.
<skaet> Please help get us back where we should be by making sure https://launchpad.net/~/+upcomingwork is up to date for your tasks.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Bugs:
<skaet> Quantal: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<skaet> 12.04.1: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/milestone-12.04.1.html
<skaet> 12.04.1: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=49926
<skaet> .
<skaet> Weekly Status Received:
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001712.html - PS(Unity) - sil2001
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001713.html - Security - mdeslaur
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001714.html - Community Testing - balloons
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001715.html - Ubuntu One - joshuahoover
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001716.html - Kernel - ogasawara
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001717.html - Desktop - seb128
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001720.html - Edubuntu - stgraber
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001721.html - QA - gema
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001722.html - Linaro - fabo
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001723.html - Xubuntu - astraljava
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001724.html - Kubuntu - Riddell
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001725.html - Foundations - ogra_
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001727.html - Server - arosales
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-August/001729.html - HW Cert - roadmr
<skaet> ?? - Ubuntu Studio - ScottL
<skaet> ?? - Lubuntu - gilir
<skaet> ..
<skaet> #Questions and Comments
<skaet> #topic Questions and Comments
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Questions and Comments
<phillw> o/
<mdeslaur> o/
<skaet> hello everyone.  :)
<skaet> phillw do you have a question,  or just waving hello?
<smartboyhw> He meant a question, he o/ed before.
<phillw> skaet: a Question
<skaet> go ahead phillw
<phillw> what do you need from Lubuntu, you state no update.
<phillw> If Julien is busy (and I know he is), I can possibly furnish it
<skaet> phillw,  email status update to ubuntu-release mail list.
<Riddell> phillw: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/Agenda/TeamTemplate
<skaet> look at the format of the other ones,   just want to know what work has been happening, and if there are blockers/dependencies you're waiting on from other teams (or if you're landing something that other teams may care about)
<phillw> skaet: okies, he does fill one in each week at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/ReleaseStatus/Quantal i
<phillw> I'll have a look at the format and have a chat with Julien to ensure it gets filed.
<skaet> phillw,  thanks.   Please mail a copy to the list though so others can look at it before meeting,  without having to remember separate paths.
<skaet> ..
<phillw> no worries, I will get it added to your template so you all have it.
<skaet> goodness.  thanks!   ..?
<skaet> phillw,  done?  ..?
 * slangasek has a comment
<phillw> done :)
<skaet> coolio
<skaet> go mdeslaur
 * skaet will ask slangasek after
<mdeslaur> hrm?
<mdeslaur> oh, sorry, I was just waving hello
<mdeslaur> ..
<skaet> mdeslaur,  ah,  just a hello after the Q&C part started then...   ok,  skipping.
<skaet> go slangasek
<slangasek> skaet: I'm very concerned about bug #1017001
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1017001 in apt (Ubuntu Quantal) "package resolvconf 1.63ubuntu14 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: pre-dependency problem - not installing resolvconf" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1017001
<slangasek> for 12.04.1
<slangasek> we have not been able to reproduce this bug under lab conditions, so although it's still milestoned, there's been no forward progress on resolution, and it's a quite bad LTS->LTS upgrade bug
<slangasek> with bdmurray's help there've been some fixes to the apport handling that *should* let us capture better info the next time the issue hits a user
<seb128> hey
<slangasek> but we don't know how widespread it is going to turn out to be once we turn on LTS->LTS upgrades by default - it could be very spectacularly bad, or it could be a non-event
<seb128> sorry, calendar integration is broken on my quantal, I missed the reminder
<slangasek> skaet: so I would like to propose that, at the 12.04.1 release time, we *tentatively* turn on the LTS upgrades in meta-release, watch for new incoming traffic for a bit, and be prepared to revert meta-release if it turns out to be a problem... and only announce the point release after we've done this test
<skaet> slangasek,  thanks for flagging.     Would it be possible to do this test when we hit final freeze?   since we shouldn't be changing after that,  and that would give us a window to react before the point release is announced?
<gema>  since we
<gema>                           shouldn't be changing after that,  and that would give us
<gema> sorry, hit the wront button
<slangasek> skaet: well, it's possible, but that means some random selection of our users will get a surprise update to 12.04 a week before the announced milestone release
<skaet> slangasek,  we could announce it as a candidate?   and make it visible to minimize surprises?
<slangasek> personally I think it would be better to wait until the scheduled date to flip the switch
<stgraber> the alternative would be to release the point release at the announced date but saying that 12.04.1 upgrades will be made available to users over the coming days
<slangasek> I don't see any way to actually message it as a candidate... the users are going to find out about it when their computer suddenly tells them a new version is available
<stgraber> where we set the flag, wait a few hours, revert and then look for what bug traffic we got during the interval
<gema> shouldn't we be warning them that they may hit problems?
<skaet> slangasek,  stgraber,   ok,  that will be the plan then.   (was thinking an email to ubuntu-announce, but probably will cause more confusion than solve issue)
<stgraber> gema: we certainly need to have the bug in the release notes, though as we were never able to reproduce it, we don't know exactly in what state the system is, so we don't know how to recover from it
<slangasek> gema: it's a tradeoff.  We have a total of 6 reports of this upgrade failure, from an unknown number of early-adopter upgraders from lucid; we have no idea if they're representative of the larger userbase or even how the error happened, as we've tried and failed to reproduce the failure using apt-clone data
<gema> stgraber:
<gema> slangasek: ack
<stgraber> I'm still hoping to hit that bug during my manual upgrades test, but out of the 20 or so I've done this week, it hasn't happened to me yet
<slangasek> skaet: sorry, to be clear, which will be the plan?
<stgraber> though I'm using clean and up to date 10.04.4 systems
<skaet> slangasek,  we'll go with what you and stgraber recommend,   put a release note in place,  and make sure we have active monitoring after we flip the switch on release day.
<slangasek> gema: the other issue is that thanks to the previous security issues that led to us scrubbing apt-clone attachments, there's a good chance we'll never be able to reproduce the bug until we get another report of it :/
<slangasek> skaet: and hold off on the announcement until we've gathered the data?
<slangasek> (which is what I'm recommending, but I don't think that's the same thing stgraber recommended :)
<skaet> slangasek,  not sure I see the benefit of holding off on the announcement,  but let me review the notes and talk to you about it next week.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> yeah, we can iron out the details outside the meeting :)
<stgraber> right, my recommendation was to publish the announcement for 12.04.1 as the media will be good but stating that upgrades will be progressively rolled out over the coming days. Letting us turn them on for a few hours, then off if we notice bug trafic
<skaet> also want to make sure we have a good monitoring plan in place.   :)
<gema> skaet: I will ask someone in the team to try to reproduce next week
<gema> QA team, that is
<skaet> #action skaet, slangasek, stgraber - determine announcement and monitoring plan for https://launchpad.net/bugs/1017001
<meetingology> ACTION: skaet, slangasek, stgraber - determine announcement and monitoring plan for https://launchpad.net/bugs/1017001
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1017001 in apt (Ubuntu Quantal) "package resolvconf 1.63ubuntu14 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: pre-dependency problem - not installing resolvconf" [Critical,Confirmed]
<skaet> thanks gema.   would appreciate that.
<slangasek> gema: any help reproducing it is certainly appreciated, but I don't have high hopes that you'll succeed in reproducing it
<gema> slangasek: we will at least try
<skaet> ..
<skaet> and since I don't see any more queued up o/,  will go into some of mine,  first of which is related ;)
<skaet> gema,  is there anything showing up from the daily automated testing from precise that should be considered a blocker at this point,  and canât be release noted?   (I agree that the left over files should be cleaned up,  but figure that they can be release noted).
 * skaet didn't see anything in the report from this week, but wants to double check since we're getting close now.
<ogra_> o/ ... /me has the general unpleasant compiz question for seb128 :)
<gema> skaet: nothing so far
<gema> skaet: will let you know as soon as we hit something like that
<skaet> thanks gema.  :)
<seb128> ogra_, lol, I've the usual reply for you :p
<ogra_> :)
<ogra_> ..
<gema> skaet: just for the record, we are working on verifying 1029531, but I believe it is already fixed
<gema> ..
<stgraber> bug 1029531
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1029531 in update-manager (Ubuntu Precise) "cdromupgrade from Lucid to Precise failed with unmet dependencies without network connection" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1029531
<skaet> based on discussion with stgraber this morning,  we'll switch to build from -updates on monday,  rather than today,  so if there's any surprises on the monday night runs,  please flag soonest.
<skaet> ..
 * skaet sees that ogra_ and seb128 have handled ogra_'s question out of band,  so....  continuing on.  ;)
<seb128> he
<seb128> heh
<ogra_> *g*
<seb128> ogra_, to give a more complete reply
<seb128> they finally put the merge request for merging in trunk up today
<seb128> so I hope it's really close
<seb128> they consider it ready to be merged at least
<seb128> so if no surprise next week...
<seb128> ..
<skaet> seb128,  The g-c-c patches are still blocked on taking a decision about llvmpipe.    where are you waiting on a decision about llvmpipe from - upstream?   likely to make before feature freeze?
<ogra_> yay
<seb128> that got decided
<seb128> basically llvmpipe is the answer they hopped it to be
<sil2100> From what I know we'll be trying to get the gsettings patches released tomorrow
<seb128> so we are dropping unity-2d
<seb128> and claiming that we stop supporting low end hardware
<sil2100> s/tomorrow/next week
<seb128> we will redirect those users to 12.04LTS probably
<seb128> that's still being discussed
<seb128> since that's quite a big shift
<seb128> ..
<ogra_> seb128, how much has that llvmpipe stuff been tested on arm ?
<ogra_> (or on anything we ship)
<seb128> ogra_, it doesn't work on arm
<seb128> as said it's not a reply
<ogra_> so whats my fallback on the arm images then ?
<seb128> it's 3d driver or use 12.04LTS
<seb128> ogra_, I though gles was working on the pandaboard?
<ogra_> so i should ship 120.04 alongside on  arm ?
<ogra_> no, it doesnt
<seb128> :-(
<ogra_> we cant ship the dirver
<ogra_> it does once you have (like on an nvidia PC) installed the third party driver
<ogra_> but there is only framebuffer X on first boot
<seb128> "great"
<balloons> There *was* a project that seems to have dried up to create an OSS driver for it
<seb128> well, those questions are actively discussed between PS, Jason, Rick, etc atm
<ogra_> thats the same for all arm platforms btw, all are like nvidia (even worse most of the time) wrt licensing
<seb128> so I've no reply yet on what we will suggest for you
<ogra_> would have been good to have an arm person involved ;)
<ogra_> anyway, not your prob ..
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> seb128,  where will this end up getting documented,  since its going to be pretty visible?   (am thinking that the beta release notes at a minimum, but probably want something wider)
<seb128> skaet, I will have responses to that we will have decisions on what we do exactly
<seb128> it's an hot topic and still being actively discussed
<seb128> I will let the release list and people know when we have a decision
<skaet> seb128, fair enough.   :)   Thanks.
<seb128> then we can figure where to announce it
<seb128> yw
<skaet> ..
<skaet> balloons,  you asked are we tracking things that failed to make it into the previous milestone and marking them for the next milestone?   yes,  its one of the checklist steps for a release to work through all the milestoned bugs and retarget them to the next milestone.   A3 pass is still needs to be finished,  A1/A2 have been done.
<balloons> skaet, thank you. I assumed so, I just hadn't seen it happen for a3 yet, so :-)
<skaet> balloons,  :)  will be finished this afternoon.   Was working on 12.04.1 stuff.  ;)
<skaet> ..
<skaet> astraljava,  any smoke testing of 12.04.1 images been done?   if so,  any issues/concerns showing up?
<astraljava> skaet: Some testing has happened, but I haven't compiled results thus far.
<astraljava> I'll try to do so over the weekend, and report back.
<astraljava> ..
<skaet> Thanks astraljava :)
<skaet> ..
 * skaet looks around if anyone else has questions (o/)?
<skaet> If not,   last comment is that some teams have burn down charts that are starting to look seriously behind.
<skaet> Please mark the features that are clearly not going to make it in by feature freeze in 2 weeks.
<seb128> skaet, stop looking at the foundation team :p
<skaet> lol
<seb128> joke aside I'm concerned that the upstart improvements we were said would land this cycle will not
 * skaet was trying to be tactful,  but there are a few others as well...
<seb128> it's somewhat a concern for desktop
 * sil2100 hides
<skaet> slangasek, ogra_ ^
 * ogra_ thoght jodh just landed a bunch
<ogra_> seb128, which are missing ?
<seb128> ogra_, things discussed at UDS I didn't see yet
<seb128> XDG_RUNTIME_SUPPORT
<seb128> logind support
<seb128> user session jobs
<ogra_> oh
<seb128> I guess some of those will not land this cycle
<seb128> but having a status update would be good, we have work blocked on those
<seb128> the XDG_RUNTIME_SUPPORT one is important
<ogra_> ok if i get you one next meeting ?
<seb128> dconf segfaults on NFS and ecryptfs regularly without it
<ogra_> i need to collect info on that
<seb128> it's one of the most common errors on e.u.c
<seb128> ogra_, sure
<seb128> ogra_, thanks
<ogra_> thx, will update you as soon as i have it
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> seb128:  any update on http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/group/topic-quantal-desktop-greeter-lockscreen.html  ?
<skaet> since we're going into specifics... ;)
<seb128> skaet, I postponed it to next cycle
<skaet> seb128, can you update the blueprints to reflect that.
<seb128> yes
<skaet> Thanks!
<seb128> I updated https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-q-system-compositor
<seb128> but forgot about the topic one
<skaet> thanks seb128   :)
<skaet> anyone else?
<skaet> ..
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Aug 10 15:50:03 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-10-15.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-08-10-15.00.html
<arosales> thanks for chairing skaet
<seb128> thanks skaet
<mdeslaur> thanks skaet
<sil2100> Thank you skaet
<seb128> btw new unity stack just got uploaded for quantal
<balloons> thanks skaet
<seb128> it might be good to keep it in proposed for the W.E
<seb128> to avoid any issue
 * sil2100 agrees
<skaet> Thanks seb128, ogra_, sil2000, roadmr, astraljava, arosales, balloons, gema, slangasek, stgraber, mdeslaur, phillw,  Riddell
<stgraber> thanks!
<skaet> seb128, sil2000  - agreed.
<roadmr> thanks!
<gema> thanks skaet for chairing
<ogra_> thanks skaet
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-08-05
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Aug  5 16:36:34 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Benjamin Drung (bdrung) provided updates for precise-raring for vlc (LP: 1186780) Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1186780 in vlc (Ubuntu Raring) "Please update VLC (for security issues)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1186780
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> I have some embargoed updates
<jdstrand> patch piloting for august
<jdstrand> and various audits
<jdstrand> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'll have a little sync up with jj, when he returns, and then I'll upload apparmor and dbus with DBus mediation support
<tyhicks> there's one known bug in dbus mediation and eavesdropping
<tyhicks> I'll fix that this week
<tyhicks> (but it isn't a blocker for uploading)
<tyhicks> I'll focus on my content hub work items this week
<tyhicks> I think that's it
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week, so it'll be more MIR audits and apparmor patch reviews (thanks tyhicks :)
<tyhicks> Oh yeah, I think there's a couple remaining (small) patches that need to be forwarded to the list
<tyhicks> I'll dig those out
<sarnold> I'm also likely to spend more time on the dnsmasq-resolvconf-confetti bomb, that hting makes such a mess over all my VMs.
<sarnold> currently, hard-coded IPs in /etc/hosts are mostly serving, but after the -27 kernel ate some of my VM images, I had to bring up some of the VMs again multiple times to get different IPs for them. what a pain.
<jdstrand> sarnold: I think some of that may be a one time sorta thing
<sarnold> jdstrand: yeah, I'm hopeful to keep it that way. :)
<sarnold> I think that's me, chrisccoulson, your turn :)
<chrisccoulson> hi
<jdstrand> sarnold: eg, maybe just start over-- clean our /etc/hosts of the static ones, then start each vm, one at a time, and ssh-keygen -R as needed until at the end you have all of them with new ip addresses
<jdstrand> sarnold: we can talk more elasewhere if you want
<jdstrand> s/elasewhere/elsewhere/
<chrisccoulson> so, this week is going to be a fun week. it's firefox and thunderbird release day tomorrow, so i'm currently working on that
<sarnold> \o/
<chrisccoulson> i've also been working on adding greasemonkey style user script support to oxide, which i plan to use for the unit tests (and which will probably form the basis of webapps)
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: was there anything for them coming out of blackhat/defcon?
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, not that i'm aware of
<jdstrand> good for them :)
<chrisccoulson> i shall get chromium out this week as well
<chrisccoulson> and i've got a meeting about the UA string for the mobile browser
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<sarnold> jdstrand: the only thing I saw come out of blackhat for the browsers was "hey javascript lets you do a lot of amazing things, and advertising networks make it easy to rent time in a few million browsers..."
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: there may be some more oxide discussions too-- I plan on poking at the thread
<jdstrand> sarnold: neat. I look forward to hearing from mdeslaur and sbeattie when they get back :)
<sarnold> jdstrand: me too :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/batmand.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/aria2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/unbound.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/squidclamav.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/policycoreutils.html
<jdstrand> The highlighted packages for this week are ^
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Securi
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> tyhicks, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Aug  5 16:55:16 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-08-05-16.36.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-08-05-16.36.html
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<tyhicks> thanks
<soren> o/
<cjwatson> hi
<cjwatson> Do we have quorum?  kees, stgraber?
<cjwatson> (And whose turn is it to chair anyway?)
 * ScottK hopes so.
<ScottK> With the email votes there may be a quorum on the extending PPU question even if there generally isn't for other business.
<soren> Don't know whose turn it is to chair.
<soren> I guess I can do it.
<soren> #startmeeting Technical Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Aug  5 20:10:35 2013 UTC.  The chair is soren. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic:
<soren> pitti and mdz sent apologies, IIRC.
<soren> #topic Action review.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic: Action review.
 * soren reviews log
<soren> Kees to review outstanding provisional MREs -- carried over
<cjwatson> FYI, I've implemented the "devel" series alias, pending review: https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/series-alias/+merge/178103
<soren> Ah, lovely.
<cjwatson> The details of how PPAs are handled turned out to require a fair amount of debate over beer between wgrant and me, but I think we got it worked out.
<soren> I don't see other action items.
<soren> #topic extending PPU rights to non-members
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic: extending PPU rights to non-members
<soren> Does anyone want to discuss this further?
<cjwatson> I just +1ed it by mail
<soren> I noticed. Does that mean the motion is carried? I've not counted the votes.
<cjwatson> kees didn't explicitly say +1 but seemed positive.
<cjwatson> pitti voted +1.
<cjwatson> No other TB votes
<soren> I'd be happy to +1 it, even though it seems a little backwards to me.
<cjwatson> Can you elaborate on that?
<soren> I never really looked at PPU rights as something that would be further gated on having a sustained, significant contribution.
<ScottK> It's already gated that way.
<ScottK> We're trying to relax the gate.
<soren> In other words, I didn't think people needed to qualify for membership to get PPU rights.
<soren> I thought getting PPU rights would grant you membership.
<ScottK> Not if you don't qualify for membership.
<soren> ScottK: I realise. My point is that I never thought that was the intent to begin with. So I'm happy to approve it, since I thought this was the intent all along.
<ScottK> PPU doesn't change the membership requiremnts.
<cjwatson> Or to put it another way: It does grant membership, which is why you need to qualify for it as part of PPU membership.
<cjwatson> *PPU rights
<ScottK> Yes
<soren> Right, and I thought having PPU rights was the qualification.
<soren> In itself.
<soren> But that discussion is rather pointless now, I guess.
<soren> At least it's irrelevant to the issue at hand.
<stgraber> sorry wasn't paying very close attention to IRC (on vacation), +1 on the PPU proposal (my concerns were addressed while we were discussing this within the DMB)
<ScottK> Mark also gave it a +1 https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2013-July/001688.html
<soren> What's the protocol here? Do we wait for kees to formally vote?
<cjwatson> soren: You, me, pitti, and stgraber makes 4/6, so carried.
<soren> Cool.
<soren> Er..
<soren> What's the meetbot magic to record that?
<cjwatson> "#agreed", I think
<soren> #agreed Extending PPU rights to non-members approved by cjwatson, pitti, soren and stgraber
<soren> #accepted Extending PPU rights to non-members approved by cjwatson, pitti, soren and stgraber
<soren> #halp
<cjwatson> Meh, we can work it out without the metadata, I'm sure :)
<soren> True :)
<soren> #topic Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic: Scan the mailing list archive for anything we missed (standing item)
<soren> Nothing, afaics.
<soren> #topic Check up on community bugs (standing item)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic: Check up on community bugs (standing item)
<soren> Nothing
<cjwatson> Cool.
<soren> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic: Select a chair for the next meeting
<soren> cjwatson: I think it's your turn.
<soren> stgraber did it recently.
<cjwatson> I'll be on holiday, I'm afraid
<cjwatson> In the middle of the Alps hopefully nowhere near a network connection
<soren> Lovely.
<soren> kees it is.
<soren> #agreed Kees to chair next meeting
<soren> #topic AOB?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Technical Board Meeting | Current topic: AOB?
<cjwatson> Nowt from me
<soren> #endmeeting adjourned
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Aug  5 20:28:28 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-08-05-20.10.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-08-05-20.10.html
<soren> Thanks all.
<cjwatson> Thanks
<stgraber> cjwatson: we actually have very good 3G/LTE up there ;) though you clearly should enjoy your vacation and skip on IRC for a bit!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-08-06
<cjwatson> stgraber: I didn't mean far away from the *possibility* of a network connection :)
<lool> Hey there
<lool> I might be alone with myself today
<lool> which is the best type of being alone
<lool> right, StÃ©phane and Barry not joining today, so best to cancel today's weekly; thanks all for a super efficient meeting!
<lool> lool: no problem
 * beuno slowly steps away from lool 
 * ogra_ feels left out by lool
<lool> ogra_: eh  :-)  actually I wanted to catchup with you on the partition table mangling plans
<lool> ogra_: do we have plans written up for this somewhere?
<ogra_> thats all slangasek land
<ogra_> i only know that we can only change the part tables on a fraction of devices
<ogra_> how he plans to do that ... i dont know ... i guess from the zip installer in recovery
<lool> ogra_: ok; I guess the other things impacting images are: a) move away from PPA(s) (super-urgent) and b) move of android bits to a pkg; am I missing anything?
<lool> recovery is actually an initrd loaded in memory, so we can do crazy things from there, but better to stage things as to not "brick" the device
<lool> nexuses are relatively hard to brick since I guess you may still recover with fastboot, but it's kind of tricky for random users (recovery rom is a nicer option for, well, recovery  :-)
<lool> maybe on a), would you know status of lightdm?  this would allow dropping a bunch of PK related patches
<ogra_> a) is done for my team ... i think bfillers team still needs to work on stuff
<lool> ogra_: ok; thanks for the updates; is there anything _I_ may update you on?
<ogra_> not really ...
<ogra_> we're waiting for click to eventually switch our images ... i guess we cant move forward until then
<lool> ogra_: actually I think clicks are mostly there now; appstore beta is meant to be announced tomorrow, apps in the image were switched to click, it should be all good
<ogra_> no, they were reverted
<lool> ogra_: maybe the last remaining thing is QA status; we have an update meeting later today, feel free to join if you like
<ogra_> and click cant enter until all tests are moved to use click
<ogra_> nah, i dont need details ... as long as we all are aware :)
<Daviey> zul: are you chair?
<Daviey> (seems you are)
<zul> Daviey:  no i just didnt update it last week
<Daviey> zul: rbasak proposed the new policy that if someone doesn't update the wiki, they need to keep doing it :)
<zul> Daviey:  hah
<Daviey> I am supportive of this polcy :)
<Daviey> zul: Thanks for chairing again :)
<hallyn> \o
<zul> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Aug  6 16:03:30 2013 UTC.  The chair is zul. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<zul> #topic
* Topic unset by meetingology on #ubuntu-meeting
<zul> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<zul> arosales to review Juju blueprints with owners after OSCON.  and rbasak to land delta report to lp:ubuntu-reports, Daviey to deploy.
<zul> is that been done?
<Daviey> i suspect arosales is afk
<Daviey> delta report is deployed, url to follow
<zul> okies
<Daviey> i will check with arosales after this for juju stuff
<zul> #topic Saucy Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Saucy Development
<zul> Daviey:  do you want to take this one?
<Daviey> We are well into Debian Import Freeze now, right?
<zul> i believe so
<Daviey> Once the delta report is clear, we need to start tracking that closer
<Daviey> Next development deadline is Aug 29th, Feature Freeze
<Daviey> Are there any features known to not be ready by then
<Daviey> ?
<zul> im good
<Daviey> If so, please raise now - or disucss with me later on.
<zul> next?
<Daviey> Lets look at..
<Daviey> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/group/topic-s-servercloud-overview.html
<Daviey> ACTION: arosales please amend the trend line
<Daviey> #CTION: arosales please amend the trend line
<Daviey> #ACTION: arosales please amend the trend line
<meetingology> ACTION: : arosales please amend the trend line
<zul> anything else?
<Daviey> simplestreams and mongo seem to be concerning, but i know jamespage and smoser are tracking those closely
<jamespage> o/
<jamespage> certainly am
<Daviey> We need to watch out for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-s-openstack-qa
<Daviey> seems to be slipping behind
<Daviey> That needs adams input i think
<Daviey> rbasak: I know you were tracking https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ruby-safe-yaml/+bug/1197896
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1197896 in ruby-safe-yaml (Ubuntu) "[MIR] ruby-safe-yaml, ruby-hashie, ruby-indentation" [Undecided,New]
<Daviey> Seems last updtaed yesterday
<Daviey> zul: I think we can move on.. thanks
<zul> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<zul> any events coming up?
<rbasak> Yeah looks like the security team will review it soon
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
<Daviey> zul: None are jumping out at me...
<plars> zul: nothing from me today
<zul> any questions for plars?
<Daviey> None, thanks plars
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<zul> hi smb
<rbasak> smb was at the Canonical kernel sprint, and I know they've finished for the day.
<rbasak> So he may not be around.
<zul> ok moving on them
<zul> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> Nothing new to report from me. Any questions?
<zul> i guess not
<zul> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<zul> anyone have anything ro raise?
<zul> if not
<zul> same time next week...thanks for comming
<zul> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Aug  6 16:20:22 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-08-06-16.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-08-06-16.03.html
<rbasak> Thanks zul!
<Daviey> thanks zul !
<roaksoax> zul: speedy zul :P
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-08-07
<ev> \o
<jodh> o/
<xnox> \o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Aug  7 15:01:19 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> bdmurray slangasek ev xnox barry jodh stokachu stgraber doko cjwatson
<slangasek> (and barry and stgraber are off today)
<bdmurray> this covers some of the stuff I did before my vacation
<bdmurray> updated errors not to return failed buckets (LP: #1202416)
<bdmurray> updated daisy branch to cache packages for more teams
<bdmurray> various package to team mapping work
<bdmurray> set up mailing lists for new package to team mapping teams
<bdmurray> arsenal modifications for package to team mapping work
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1202416 in Errors "package-version-new-buckets should not return failed retraces" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1202416
<bdmurray> modified arsenal to better handle the search criteria with negated tags
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposal for unsubbed-packages to ubuntu-archive-tools
<bdmurray> updated sru-release to set phased_update_percentage to 10 and submitted merge proposal for it
<bdmurray> tested the phased-updater on lillypilly
<bdmurray> worked on SRU verification of bug 1205374
<bdmurray> upload of ubuntu-release-upgrader to saucy fixing a test failure
<bdmurray> testing of ubuntu-release-upgrader unsupported release dialog
<ubottu> bug 1205374 in whoopsie (Ubuntu Raring) "Only attempts to retry the existing crash reports once, after two hours." [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1205374
<bdmurray> â done
<slangasek>  * client sprint on the IoM; it was nice to be in everyone's timezone last week :)
<slangasek>  * prepping for DebConf next week
<slangasek>  * prepping for 12.04.3, the week after DebConf
<slangasek> (done)
<ev> - Discussions with pitti and the QA team on automatically uploading to whoopsie
<ev>   when there are crashes in jenkins:
<ev>   http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~apport-hackers/apport/trunk/view/head:/data/whoopsie-upload-all
<ev> - Discussions with the MIR team on reporting errors for hanging applications in
<ev>   Touch. Some investigation of Android's ANR (application not responding) and
<ev>   the Mir architecture. Blocked on waiting for a Nexus 4 (nvidia on the 7 makes
<ev>   running Mir a difficult task).
<ev> - Created and tested an upstart job for automatic error reporting. Updated the
<ev>   Touch seeds to use this new package.
<ev> - Built out some functional tests for the whoopsie-preferences daemon, after
<ev>   the MIR requested (but didn't block on) them:
<ev>   https://code.launchpad.net/~ev/whoopsie-preferences/functional-tests
<ev> - Work on generating a unique system identifier on touch devices. Blocked on
<ev>   waiting for the Nexus 4 (need a SIM for getting an IMEI):
<ev>   https://code.launchpad.net/~ev/whoopsie/android-serial/+merge/178306
<ev> - Fighting errors that have cropped up in recent revisions of the charms
<ev>   (haproxy, cassandra, etc). With these fixes in place, we're now running the
<ev>   entire infrastructure (on canonistack) with gojuju. This should hopefully
<ev>   speed up RT 58019 and was necessary to test running the retracers with the
<ev>   latest and greatest apport:
<ev>   - https://code.launchpad.net/~ev/canonical-marshal/cassandra-dont-assume-bzr/+merge/178520
<ev>   - https://code.launchpad.net/~ev/canonical-marshal/haproxy-write-listen-stanza/+merge/178569
<ev> - Meeting with Katherine to discuss automatic error reporting on Touch.
<ev>   Followed up with Cimi and Katie Taylor on getting a bit of text added to the
<ev>   first use experience. Katie will get the exact text from Katherine, but I
<ev>   think we're safe to enable this.
<ev> - Fixing kernel OOPS reporting to daisy.ubuntu.com by testing and updating
<ev>   our version of apport.
<ev>   http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~daisy-pluckers/daisy/trunk/revision/387
<ev> Updates from webops:
<ev> - The backup of the Cassandra DC cluster and initial Cassandra prodstack
<ev>   cluster (etstack - what we built to migrate away from the ENOSPC disaster,
<ev>   not to be confused with the production prodstack cluster) is now complete. We
<ev>   have a meeting with Acunu in the office on Monday to have a little cry and
<ev>   maybe fix some things.
<ev> - Moving the retracers on prodstack is still waiting for action by the webops
<ev>   team (https://portal.admin.canonical.com/58019). Tom suggested it was a
<ev>   resource problem on their end. I'll keep prodding.
<ev> Random:
<ev> - I'm going to start subscribing the team to merge proposals for projects I've
<ev>   written in C. I'll do my best to get involved in upstart MPs in return.
<ev> (done!)
<jodh> ev: you rock! :)
<slangasek> ev: N4> is the PO raised?
<ev> slangasek: it is - should be here by the end of the week
<slangasek> huzzah
<xnox> * catched up on some merges/syncs, i TIL.
<xnox> * finished multiarch of tk/tcl 8.6.
<xnox> * multiarched boost-dev for cross-building (for doko)
<xnox> * fixed privileges dropping in ubiquity since migration to pkexec
<xnox>   ( thus fixing U1 page )
<xnox> * Fighting the emulator for Ubuntu touch (legacy, unflipped, arm at
<xnox>   the moment):
<xnox>   - so far the emulator is winning
<xnox>   - it boots and mounts filesystems, but linker gets unresolved
<xnox>     symbols when trying to run ubuntuappmanager. (from AOSP build)
<xnox>   - or fails to mount filesystems. (from phablet build)
<xnox>   - trying to mix & match until in works
<xnox> ..
<jodh> * foundations-1305-upstart-work-items:
<jodh>   - upstart dep-8 integration tests:
<jodh>     - Reworked MP for lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/python-upstart-module
<jodh>     - DEP-8 test code now finished, but not fully tested (read on).
<jodh>       Has to perform some interesting setup:
<jodh>       - Start a nested VM and timeout-wait for it to boot.
<jodh>       - Configure nested VM:
<jodh>         - Copy the source tree to the VM.
<jodh>         - Enable Upstart debug mode by updating grub config.
<jodh>         - Manually install test dependencies.
<jodh>         - Create a test job to check for a successful boot (yes,
<jodh>           cloud-init does this too, but just in case... :)
<jodh>         - Create a chroot environment.
<jodh>         - Reboot the VM and timeout-wait for it to boot.
<jodh>       - Run the tests via ssh in the background to avoid hanging
<jodh>         indefinately should the nested VMs kernel panic.
<jodh>       - Timeout if the test takes too long to run or the VM dies/cannot
<jodh>         be connected to.
<jodh>       - Handle the scenarios where the test *does* kill the nested VM:
<jodh>         - Reboot it, forcing an fsck and wait for it to come back up.
<jodh>       - Copy the test results data from the nested VM back into the
<jodh>         autopkg VM for collection and presentation via Jenkins.
<jodh>     - Some of the above setup will hopefully be added to autopkgtest
<jodh>       when we have this working well.
<jodh>     - However, this work item is blocked on bug 1208455:
<ubottu> bug 1208455 in linux (Ubuntu) "general protection fault running apt-get inside double nested kvm VM" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1208455
<jodh>       - Discussions with kernel and QA teams.
<jodh>       - Tried forcing nested mode for all *three* environments (host,
<jodh>         autopkgtest vm and pristine "nested" (actually double-nested))
<jodh>         vm, but still get kernel panic.
<jodh>       - Test code now updated to force nested mode in the 2 environments
<jodh>         it can configure now, just as a precaution.
<jodh>       - Part of the explanation for the double-nested vm running at 200%
<jodh>         cpu in OpenStack turned out to be bug 1208853.
<jodh>       - Currently trying with linux-image-3.11.0-0-generic from
<ubottu> bug 1208853 in byobu (Ubuntu) "dozens of byobu-status processes running on ubuntu server" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1208853
<slangasek> jodh: heard anything back from the kernel team yet wrt the nested kvm horrors?
<jodh>         '-proposed' as recommended by the kernel team.
<jodh> * other:
<jodh>   - Reviewed lp:~ev/whoopsie/be-more-verbose.
<jodh>   - Worked on DebConf presentation.
<jodh> Ê¡
<ev> (oh and thanks xnox for the code review on the android system identifier stuff!)
<slangasek> jodh: also, do you have console output from the nested VM?  I'm inclined to think this would be more reliable than just driving it over ssh
<jodh> been chatting in #ubuntu-kernel about it most of today.
<jodh> my "best hope" seems to be a 3.11 kernel (testing currently in progress), else ....?
<stokachu> bug 1121874 and bug 1207123 are uploaded and just need sru approval
<ubottu> bug 1121874 in mysql-5.5 (Ubuntu Raring) "MySQL launch fails silently if < 4MB of disk space is available" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1121874
<stokachu> done
<ubottu> bug 1207123 in gnutls26 (Ubuntu Precise) "Key usage violation in certificate has been detected" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1207123
<xnox> ev: C merge proposal reviews is nice =) i <3 C
<slangasek> jodh: ok
<ev> don't we all
<slangasek> stokachu: ok, noted :)
<jodh> we have the console log on the bug.
<slangasek> doko: your turn
<stokachu> thanks!
<xnox> ev: i've been reading up on "The C++ programming language" (4th edition, updated with C++'11) and i'm starting to drink the kool-aid =) ps. i can share the book, if anyone else is interested.
<jodh> slangasek: we capture the console output as a "test artifact"
<doko> - AArch64 bringup (now normal and buildd chroots can be, and finally are built natively)
<doko> - Test two Linaro changes to fix two regressions.
<doko> - Try to cross-build unity8, first getting b-d's all installed.
<doko> (done)
<jodh> slangasek: I did think about running the tests directly as upstart jobs. we could explore that if required.
<cjwatson> xnox: C++> I'm so sorry
<ev> xnox: I'm very tempted to give it another try, mostly because we're building our SDK on top of it. Also because I'm curious about RAII.
<cjwatson> foundations-1305-click-package:
<cjwatson>  - File format tweak to support MIME type detection.
<cjwatson>  - Move MIME type declaration from shared-mime-info to click, per shared-mime-info upstream.
<cjwatson>  - Scary scary improvement in handling of removal of old links for single-version hooks.  (Nobody seems to have noticed the previous bug yet ...)
<cjwatson>  - Add a sort of virtual hook facility (Hook-Name in .hook files), which should support Ted's Upstart-based desktop hook.
<cjwatson> foundations-1305-arm64-bringup:
<cjwatson>  - Finally sorted out the auto-cross-builder again.
<jodh> xnox: I'm interested :)
<cjwatson>  - Diagnosed and fixed http://bugs.debian.org/718482.
<ev> cjwatson: lol
<ubottu> Debian bug 718482 in apt "apt: CompareProviders ranks Priority above native architecture" [Normal,Open]
<cjwatson> Prepared https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/series-alias/+merge/178103 to make "devel" symlinks work.
<cjwatson> Review-induced tweaks to https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/buildstatus-aborted/+merge/176990.
<slangasek> jodh: I'm arguing that the console output should be used to detect VM crashes, and possibly even for driving the tests themselves
<cjwatson> Tested bug 1205407 for raring.
<ubottu> bug 1205407 in shadow (Debian) "su: kill child process group on signal, not just immediate child" [Unknown,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1205407
<cjwatson> foundations-r-phased-updates: Helped to deploy the phased updater.
<cjwatson> PuTTY security update.
<cjwatson> Fighting qemu to get 4K/4K disk tests working again.  So far, failed.
<cjwatson> Preparing daily quality talk for DebConf.
<cjwatson> ..
<slangasek> jodh: because using anything other than the console makes detection more heuristic
<slangasek> jodh: if you could configure everything to run noninteractively within the VM, and capture all the needed results from the VM console output, I think that's going to be most reliable *and* most efficient
<xnox> ev: RAII is quite intersting, given that it's scope save without requiring to wrap your code in a try/with block with a "finally:" as one does in python. There is no finally. And things like initialisations and "auto" types are all very nice.
<jodh> slangasek: maybe we should discuss after the meeting? I'm not clear how we'd drive tests via the console but in the background. I know there are socket options on qemu but would need to dig into the manual.
<slangasek> (no races with ssh startup, for one thing)
<stokachu> ev: re: gojuju are you still writing all hooks in bash?
<slangasek> jodh: well, I'm perhaps assuming you aren't so much driving the tests via console as you are consuming the results
<xnox> cjwatson: i started with a rather large article published by microsoft "why one shall not use c++ for drivers/kernel mode" and that set quite a few things straight to start with.
<ev> stokachu: for the moment, though I'd like to move to the new python libraries
<ev> it's just a matter of time
<ev> this is already working
<stokachu> ev: cool just curious what everyone is using
<ev> sure
<slangasek> jodh: yes, it should be possible to wire the VM's console up to a pty and drive it interactively, but I don't think that should actually be necessary - anyway, sure, we can talk more after the meeting
<ev> I think python is the way to go for future charms
<ev> stokachu: the u1 charms are worth looking at for best practices
<jodh> slangasek: so I guess you're implying we do run the tests via an upstart job. I can look at doing that, but if this needs to happen fast, I guess we can use what we have as long as we can overcome this kernel issue?
<slangasek> doko: chroots built natively - huzzah!
<stokachu> ev: definately, we just got done writing our cts app deployment in bash
<stokachu> ev: cool ill take a look at those
<xnox> stokachu: i have some in python and some in shell. anything beyond package installation & relationships, I preffer the python modules.
<doko> slangasek, well, last two or three packages still building ...
<ev> stokachu: sidnei is the guy to talk to for pointers on their codebase / access
<jodh> slangasek: ok, note that I'm essentially emulating some of what the autopkg test infrastructure does atm.
<ev> and sure thing
<stokachu> thanks :D
<slangasek> ev: new python libraries for use with gojuju? curious
<cjwatson> All my charms are still in shell, largely because I haven't written anything new since switching to Go Juju
<xnox> slangasek: yeah somebody did a mini python module, with useful hooks / functions which has been cargo culted for a while.
<ev> slangasek: weird, right? :)
 * xnox doesn't want to come anywhere near the "official" nginx charm. it's written in php.
<ev> ha!
<slangasek> jodh: yes, tests via upstart job; yes, what you currently have is enough to be getting on with - I just think you will find that moving it to be more noninteractive and capturing from the console will significantly simplify things and make it more robust, so we don't have to worry about false test failures
<slangasek> Any other questions wrt lightning round?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<ev> php, because, well: https://github.com/search?p=1&q=extension%3Aphp+mysql_query+%24_GET&ref=searchresults&type=Code
<slangasek> wat
<slangasek> that's not a charm, that's a hex
<stokachu> LOL
<ev> :D
<slangasek> though I guess since it's php, it will be implicitly *cast* from hex to charm
<slangasek> half the time
<slangasek> ANYWAY
<slangasek> so I had one thing for AOB
<stgraber> ev: scary ;)
<slangasek> half the team is at DebConf next week
<stokachu> i sense dissatisfaction
<ev> wooooo party for the rest of us
<ev> I'm buying a hammock
<slangasek> that leaves just ev, bdmurray, barry, and stokachu here
<slangasek> if you guys want to have a meeting next week, feel free?
<slangasek> but don't expect the rest of us to show :)
<cjwatson> they get to do everyone else's work then
<cjwatson> eeeeexcellent
<stokachu> if bdmurray doesnt mind ill just ping him directly next week on any bugs
<bdmurray> stokachu: that'd be fine
<stokachu> thanks man
<ev> cjwatson: I'm going to subcontract your work to the sales team.
<slangasek> any other Any Other Business?
<ev> nope
<stokachu> no topic this week?
<xnox> ev: i have flashbacks....
<slangasek> stokachu: shortly :)
<stokachu> ah ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Phased updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Phased updates
 * slangasek turns the floor over to bdmurray 
<slangasek> who can tell us all about the awesome results of integrating errors.u.c with our SRU process!
<bdmurray> For a while now we've wanted to gradually roll out packages in -updates to users.
<bdmurray> update-manager has had this support for a while but until recently we were lacking server side support for this
<bdmurray> Thanks to some help from cjwatson and ev this now done.
<ev> WOOHOOO!
<bdmurray> Starting right now (for raring) when a SRU is released it will have the phased-update-percentage set to 10%.
<bdmurray> Every 6 hours there is a job that checks for regressions in that version of the package and if there are none the p-u-p is incremented by 10%.
<doko> how are these users choosen?
<bdmurray> If a user uses update-manager to install updates, update-manager chooses for them.
<bdmurray> It's possible to choose to install all updates being phased or none.
<bdmurray> doko: does that answer your question?
<doko> yes, thanks
<bdmurray> so what are the regression checks?
<doko> so 10% of the phased ones
<cjwatson> detail: update-manager generates a random number which is consistent across runs for each machine and package
<cjwatson> So if the p-u-p is 10% then that random number [0,1] must be <=0.1
<cjwatson> Or something along those lines
<bdmurray> Thanks cjwatson
<bdmurray> So we use errors.ubuntu.com to see if there are any crashes reported about the new version of the package (the one in -updates) that were not reported about the previous version of the package.
<jodh> bdmurray: how was the value 6 hours chosen?
<bdmurray> jodh: I just picked something that didn't seem too fast
<slangasek> yeah, it's a pretty arbitrary value; we may have to tune it later
<jodh> bdmurray: I just wondered if it should be >24 hours to allow for those systems that are only updated daily?
<slangasek> but it's intended to ensure the roll-out is slow enough that we can collect meaningful data on errors.u.c in each interval
<slangasek> jodh: all systems are only updated daily, but there are a lot of systems
<bdmurray> jodh: then it would take about 9 days for everybody to get an update, which seems really long
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> anyway, not everybody applies the updates as soon as they're visible... some users let updates linger for days or weeks before applying them
<bdmurray> In addition to checking for new crashes, the error tracker is also queried to see if there is an increased rate of crashes about the package.
<slangasek> so we know there's a lag time between the update being published and reports of regressions coming in, though we don't know exactly how long that lag is
<cjwatson> The initial run took about 10 minutes, so every six hours is probably reasonable enough load
<bdmurray> If either type of regression is detected then the phasing of the update is stopped by setting it to 0.
<bdmurray> This will prevent other users from receiving the updated version of the package.
<bdmurray> The job also generates an html report of packages currently undergoing phasing which displays the p-u-p and any detected regressions.
<bdmurray> Addiitionally, an email is sent to the signer of the package (uploader) and its creator (either the uploader or sponsee).
<bdmurray> The email notifies them of the problem and that the phasing has been stopped.
<slangasek> bdmurray: do you have the link to that html report?
<bdmurray> Yes, but its empty right now.
<bdmurray> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/phased-updates.html
<xnox> cjwatson: "intial run took about 10 minutes" what does that run mean? to generate report, or for a a first regression to be filed in errors since first phased publishing?
<bdmurray> An example of its content can be found here
<bdmurray> http://people.canonical.com/~brian/tmp/phased-updates.html
<bdmurray> xnox: to generate the report and review the updates
<xnox> ack.
<bdmurray> There is also support in the phased-updater to override specific problems, if a crash is determined not to be a regression.
<bdmurray> So once the SRU team starts releasing packages to raring-updates we'll see some activity.
<bdmurray> I think that covers it.
<slangasek> congrats to bdmurray, ev, cjwatson for getting this landed
<slangasek> very exciting to see us leveraging errors.u.c in this way
<ev> thanks for all the heavy lifting, guys!
<ev> me too! :D
<slangasek> any more audience questions? :)
<jodh> bdmurray: is there a plan for handling phased updates to server systems?
<bdmurray> I'm not aware of one and I believe ev is just working on error reporting for servers.
<doko> FLAGRANT SYSTEM ERROR
<doko> Computer over.
<doko> Virus = Very Yes.
<doko> very yes?
<ev> it's a joke (that's sadly going away)
<ev> you've encountered a bug in the code
<stokachu> strOngBaD
 * ev looks it up
<ev> doko: appears to be a bug in django_openid_auth (https://oops.canonical.com/oops/?oopsid=OOPS-180ace38c5a200b3c30ff08a1f98505c for those in ~daisy-pluckers). I'll see what I can do.
<xnox> ?!
<slangasek> ok, sounds like that's it for the meeting
<slangasek> y'all can dissect django on another channel :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Aug  7 15:49:08 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-08-07-15.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-08-07-15.01.html
<slangasek> thanks!
<ev> ha!
<ev> thanks
<stokachu> does ubottu.com not like chromium?
<jodh> thanks
<xnox> cheers!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-08-10
<GTEKY> howdy
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-08-11
<ivarela> hi all, anyone has problems with latest translations in Firefox for Ubuntu?
<ivarela> I've updated it, and Firefox appears in English, not in my language..
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-08-04
<jdstrand> hi!
<mdeslaur> hi!
<chrisccoulson> hi
<jjohansen> \o
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Aug  4 16:45:21 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thanks to the following people for their help on security updates for these community supported packages last week:
<jdstrand> Mike Heald (jedimike) provided a debdiff for precise for nss-pam-ldapd (LP: #1347614)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1347614 in nss-pam-ldapd (Ubuntu) "Fix for CVE-2013-0288 in precise package" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347614
<jdstrand> Julian Taylor (jtaylor) provided a debdiff for precise for ipython (LP: #1344854)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1344854 in ipython (Ubuntu Precise) "CVE-2014-3429: remote execution via cross origin websocket" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1344854
<jdstrand> Stefan Bader (smb) provided a precise package for xen
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> this morning I finally managed to have no open items in the hr system (ie, perf reviews are done)
<jdstrand> so this week I'll help with apparmor testing and landing
<jdstrand> I'm on triage
<jdstrand> and I have a bunch of pending updates (openjdk, openstack)
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm currently publishing some updates
<mdeslaur> and have more pending
<mdeslaur> and will be going down the list some more...I want to clear out the list as much as possible before I go on vacation on the 20th
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> am currently sponsoring an update for Riddell
<mdeslaur> that's about it
<mdeslaur> sbeattie isn't here...who's after him? tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I think so
<jdstrand> yes
<tyhicks> I'm still plugging away at the versioned parser patches
<tyhicks> after thinking about what will be needed to do it from kernel postinst, I realized that I need to make some changes
<tyhicks> however, I'm about to put that aside and do a few updates to the apparmor Ubuntu package in prep for landing the abstract socket changes
<mdeslaur> \o/
<tyhicks> (we've gathered a few small changes, in addition to abstract socket mediation, that we wanted to lump into the same update)
<tyhicks> if I have any extra time, there have been a few ecryptfs-utils bugs that should get some attention
 * jdstrand wouldn't count on extra time this particular week
<jdstrand> :)
<tyhicks> agreed :)
<jdstrand> maybe friday :)
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I will be pulling my hair out,^W^W^W^W err working on apparmor abstract socket mediation this week
<jjohansen> the latest iteration of the kernel is in the usual place, http://people.canonical.com/~jj/linux-image-3.15.0-6-generic_3.15.0-6.95+jj_amd64.deb
<jjohansen> and another iteration is building
<jjohansen> I still have a few changes to the parser to finish up to match the latest kernel as out of band transitions will not land with this
<jjohansen> I expect to be iterating, this stuff and testing and helping with policy until we land this mess
 * jjohansen is in the process of getting the kernel patch together for sarnold, and anyone else who wants to gouge their eyes out
<jjohansen> and the parser patches will follow later today
 * sarnold passes around the mellon ballers
<jjohansen> that is it for me, sarnold your up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week, I've got some outstanding MIR reviews and another merge from tvoss for trust store to review -- presumably some apparmor patches to review too :) I suspect the apparmor patches alone would be enough to fill the week
<jjohansen> sarnold: I'm glab you can call this your happy place ;)
<sarnold> jjohansen: heh, compared to 70-odd CVEs to triage, it feels pretty happy :)
<sarnold> tvoss's C++ is like reading urdu poetry -- I know it's beautiful but I just can't understand the language :D
<sarnold> anyway, that's me, chrisccoulson?
<jdstrand> sarnold: hehe
<chrisccoulson> so, good news! I tested chromium 36 this morning
<chrisccoulson> the bad news is that it crashes at startup on precise
<mdeslaur> \o/...oh wait, /o\
<chrisccoulson> so, at some point, that will be going out (once chad has fixed it)
<chrisccoulson> I've also got some reviews to do for oxide
<chrisccoulson> other than that, I'll be working through my RTM bugs
<chrisccoulson> that's me done :)
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: anything big for rtm?
<jdstrand> re 36> \o/
<jdstrand> :P
<chrisccoulson> mdeslaur, https://bugs.launchpad.net/oxide/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.tag=rtm14
<chrisccoulson> some of those need dropping off there actually
<mdeslaur> ah, so just a couple of minor things I see :)
<mdeslaur> </j>
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: feel free to remove the rtm14 tag from the medium ones
<chrisccoulson> sure, will do
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: the way that critical and high are being handled is critical means we can't ship without it, high is we really want to ship with it but can provide an ota update
<chrisccoulson> yeah, that makes sense
<jdstrand> not sure the current priorities match that. might be worth discussing in the next oxide meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/fwsnort.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/php-sabredav.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/bip.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gamera.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-net-ldap.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tangim> is there any kdeconnect allernative for unity??
<jdstrand> tangim: I think you might want #ubuntu-user
<tangim> umm...i don't know diffrence between ubuntu-meeting, ubuntu-on-air and ubuntu-user :(
<jdstrand> tangim: see the /topic for each. this is a place where teams have meetings, not a general support forum
<tangim> oh...thanks :)
<jdstrand> np
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Aug  4 17:17:24 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-08-04-16.45.moin.txt
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<tyhicks> thanks
<tangim> jdstrand: only me in #ubuntu-user :o
<jdstrand> tangim: sorry, #ubuntu-users
<tangim> oh
<tangim> thanks :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-08-05
<matsubara> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Aug  5 16:00:32 2014 UTC.  The chair is matsubara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<matsubara> Hello, who's here today?
<coreycb> o/
<beisner> o/
<serue> o/
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Though partly over in the TB meeting for Juju questions, if they have any for the SRU exception request.
<rcj> o/
<lutostag> o/
<matsubara> Let's give some time to people to join in. Apologies from smoser, gaughen, jamespage who are sprinting in Germany. gnuoy and rharper who are out on holidays
<matsubara> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<gaughen> o/
<gaughen> yo yo, matsubara I'm here!
<smb>  \o
<matsubara> Hi gaughen, welcome!
<matsubara> guten tag/abend!
<gaughen> bon jour!
<gaughen> oh wait, umm... guten tag
<smb> abend works
<smb> Its about beer time too... errm
<gaughen> smb, ah they can tell I'm american from a mile away. they always just say hello
<matsubara> No action points from the previous meeting
<matsubara> #topic Utopic Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Utopic Development
<matsubara> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseSchedule
<matsubara> So, important dates to keep in mind. DebianImportFreeze in 2 days (the 7th) and FeatureFreeze in Aug 21st
<matsubara> so everyone is welcome to land those merge request from the Friday sprints rbasak has been running
<matsubara> requests even
<matsubara> #subtopic Release Bugs
<matsubara> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-u-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<matsubara> There's one critical bug in the list which is assigned to kirkland
<matsubara> also bug 1347567, filed by jamespage with no assignee yet.
<ubottu> bug 1347567 in openstack-trove (Ubuntu Utopic) "trove unit tests disabled" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347567
<jamespage> matsubara, I think that might be quite and easy fix
<jamespage> but I've not had time to look at it yet
<matsubara> Should we have takers for high bugs during this meeting?
<jamespage> matsubara, not essential
<coreycb> jamespage, do the tests need to be disabled for that one?
<matsubara> coreycb, beisner: want to take a stab at it since you guys are directly involved with openstack stuff?
<jamespage> coreycb, they are right now - we just ignore the result
<coreycb> matsubara, I'll take that one
<jamespage> but I've tried to raise bugs for when we have todo that
<matsubara> thanks coreycb!
<matsubara> #action coreycb to take on bug 1347567
<meetingology> ACTION: coreycb to take on bug 1347567
<ubottu> bug 1347567 in openstack-trove (Ubuntu Utopic) "trove unit tests disabled" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347567
<matsubara> #subtopic Blueprints
<matsubara> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-u/group/topic-u-server.html
<matsubara> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-u-server
<matsubara> Usual reminder to keep your BP up to date.
<matsubara> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<matsubara> caribou is not around, so let's move on
<matsubara> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<jamespage> that coreycb
<jamespage> ta coreycb - sorry long day
<psivaa> matsubara: not much of updates from us except
<matsubara> psivaa, Anything from the QA team?
<coreycb> jamespage, np :)
<psivaa> the utopic installation jobs are broken at the moment due to a parted job if in case you'd like to know
<psivaa> s/job/bug
<matsubara> psivaa, thanks for the update. Any action from server team members to have that fixed? Or is the QA team taking care of it?
<psivaa> matsubara: the foundations team is fixing it. thanks :)
<matsubara> Great. Thank you psivaa!
<matsubara> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<smb> Nothing too exiting. Somehow users of EC2 seem to have collaborated and last week saw several unrelated bugs being reported there. I have nothing otherwise. Any questions for me?
<matsubara> smb, nothing from me. Thanks for the update!
<matsubara> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<matsubara> Calendar says Linuxcon in the 20th. Not sure who in the server team is attending, but that's about it. There's the TL sprint currently going which should be bring lots of news next week when gaughen, jamespage and smoser are back home.
<matsubara> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<matsubara> Anything else?
<matsubara> 5
<matsubara> 4
<matsubara> 3
<matsubara> 2
<matsubara> 1
<lutostag> voting for ODS sessions is about to close, vote for the ones you want to see
<matsubara> oh, good reminder lutostag!
<matsubara> here's a handy linkg for the sessions: http://insights.ubuntu.com/2014/07/31/voting-begins-for-openstack-summit-sessions-in-paris/
<matsubara> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<matsubara> Same bat-time, bat-channel but not the same bat-chair. That will be gaughen
 * gaughen high fives matsubara 
<matsubara> Thank you all for attending.
<matsubara> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Aug  5 16:20:41 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-08-05-16.00.moin.txt
<lutostag> thanks matsubara!
<coreycb> thanks matsubara
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-08-07
<robru> slangasek, https://github.com/juju/juju/pull/286
 * slangasek waves
<robru> #start meeting Foundations Team Meeting
<slangasek> robru: '#startmeeting'
<sil2100> o/
<robru> #startmeeting Foundations Team Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  7 15:03:10 2014 UTC.  The chair is robru. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Foundations Team Meeting | Current topic:
 * xnox o/
<robru> #topic Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Foundations Team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning round
<robru> ok who is actually here for the meeting?
<cjwatson> o/
<barry> o/
<xnox> o/
 * stgraber waves
<bdmurray> \o
<sil2100> We can always shuffle from the whole list and just skip people that are not around
<robru> ok who has the whole list? ;-)
<sil2100> Not super optimal, but it worked ;)
 * sil2100 looks at slangasek 
<xnox> and doko
<slangasek> echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox caribou infinity mvo bhuey sil2100 robru)
<slangasek> caribou sil2100 doko infinity jodh bhuey bdmurray mvo xnox slangasek cjwatson robru stgraber barry
<slangasek> there :)
<barry> win!
<robru> slangasek, thanks, I need to make an alias for that ;-)
<robru> i guess no caribou then, so sil2100 starts?
<sil2100> One moment!
<robru> sil2100, sil2100, sil2100, sil2100!! go go go!
<sil2100> - Helping out with C++ debian packaging symbols handling
<sil2100> - Landing team work, landing e-mails, landing coordination - standard stuff
<sil2100> - Double trainguard shift on Monday
<sil2100> - CI Train maintenance and features:
<sil2100>   * More work on enabling for RTM
<sil2100>   * Adding many workarounds to the RTM branch to enable working with both LP and DF at once (no code-hosting on DF)
<sil2100>   * More testing of a complete landing to ubuntu-rtm
<sil2100>   * Enabling copy2distro to temporarily support the testing preprod RTM features
<sil2100>   * Work on the twin package upload checks better
<sil2100>   * Switching to proper distro-based silo names (e.g. ubuntu-rtm/landing-001)
<sil2100> - Packaging advice and support for some upstreams
<sil2100> - Discussions related to RTM support in the CI Train
<sil2100> - Discussions regarding beta testing readiness with QA
<sil2100> - Discussions on QA rules for ubuntu-rtm
<sil2100> - Announcing TRAINCON-0 due to the image situation
<sil2100> - Dealing with TRAINCON-0: pushing upstreams, information flow, decision-making etc.
<sil2100>   * Also helping out with some of the fixes for blockers
<sil2100> - Started review of a ubuntu-keyboard branch
<sil2100> - Many many other things that got lost in the chaos
<sil2100> (done)
<robru> doko, you're up
<xnox> what's "copy2distro" ?
<doko> not soo fast
<doko> - three days of main merges
<doko> - various Debian NMUs to be able to drop the delta
<doko> - more pestering about component mismatches
<doko> - MIR's
<doko> - working on the aarch64 multilib toolchain
<doko> - finally finished the openmpi transition (which was started in April ...)
<doko> - more openjdk-6 / openjdk-7 patches, mentoring
<doko> - packaging review of some third party software
<doko> (done)
<sil2100> xnox: it's the CI Train side that runs on snakefruit, that actually pushes the packages to the archive
<cjwatson> xnox: from lp:cupstream2distro - it's the privileged component that CI Train talks to in order to copy stuff into Ubuntu
<xnox> right. thanks.
<cjwatson> I believe infinity and jodh are both off today
<cjwatson> Is bhuey around?
<robru> bhuey, around?
<sil2100> Most of my knowledge about copy2distro actually comes from this week, never saw it before as this part was a bit archive-admin specific ;)
<bdmurray> and I heard bhuey was out from slangasek
<bdmurray> so I'll start
<cjwatson> OK
<bdmurray> requested saved .crash files from a retracer for manual retracing
<bdmurray> research into armhf retracing failures on precise
<bdmurray> reported gdb bug 1351018 regarding threads on precise
<bdmurray> discovered an issue with the retracers trying to write CoreDump to the stacktrace column family (fixed in r507)
<ubottu> bug 1352591 in apport (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1351018 apport-retrace does not update libraries in a sandbox" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1352591
<bdmurray> submitted RT to update retracers to r507
<bdmurray> updated and tested daisy using counters for "rootfs build" and "device image"
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have daisy updated to r508 (counters for images)
<bdmurray> verified new counters exist in DayBucketsCount
<bdmurray> pushed errors updates to be able to query for rootfs_build_version and device_image_version using the API on errors
<bdmurray> pinged webops about the retracers being stuck (lost cassandra connection on the 3rd)
<bdmurray> debugging apport-retrace / gdb issue on retracers with armhf crashes (LP: #1351018)
<bdmurray> reported apport bug 1352591 (sandbox libs not updated) source of bug gdb issue
<ubottu> bug 1352591 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport-retrace does not update libraries in a sandbox" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1352591
<bdmurray> reported apport bug 1352450 regarding apport-retrace options
<ubottu> bug 1352450 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport-retrace should indicate that -s and -o don't work together" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1352450
<bdmurray> pinged webops about updating ubuntu_assets_url to 492 (package version selection filtering)
<bdmurray> updated daisy's submit.py code to only retry retracing crashes without third-party-packages
<bdmurray> updated and tested creation of SystemImages column family in daisy (r511, r512)
<bdmurray> confirmed that SystemImage column family exists and is populated
<bdmurray> rewriting errors frontends to allow for selecction of rootfs build or device image
<bdmurray> â done
<xnox> mvo is out.
<xnox> me.
<xnox> * split upstart package bug #1351306
<xnox> * merge proposals to stabilise whoopsie ids on ubuntu-touch & more
<xnox> * fixed bug #1326327
<xnox> * fixed bug #1351295
<xnox> * emailed outstanding systemd units (mostly cloud)
<ubottu> bug 1351306 in upstart (Ubuntu) "Cannot uninstall upstart and install systemd-sysv" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1351306
<xnox> * looking into 12.04.5 picked up ubiquity issue:
<xnox>   self.controller.get_string does not work at import time, hence this
<ubottu> bug 1326327 in debhelper (Ubuntu) "dh_installinit should generated update-rc.d remove to remove rc*.d symlinks" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1326327
<ubottu> bug 1351295 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu) "Boot fails if /sbin/init (or init= arg) is an absolute symlink" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1351295
<xnox>   broke OEM installation on 2.1 QEMU which returns a too long
<xnox>   autogenerated hostname.
<xnox> * today mostly coordinating EOE & fixing other spotted ubiquity UX
<xnox>   bugs
<xnox> * Todo for tomorrow:
<xnox>   lvm2 merge, btrfs-tools update, mdadm update, ubiquity UX, and then
<xnox>   EOE. :`(
<xnox> ..
<robru> xnox, EOE but not EOL!
<xnox> =) yeap End Of Employment
<cjwatson> last team meeting!  good luck at the next gig ...
<slangasek> indeed, good luck :)
<slangasek> we'll have to have the good-bye drinks in Portland :P
<slangasek>  * work to make sure all the packages on the phone have debugging symbols
<xnox> =)
<robru> slangasek, so I know you said you wouldn't be here for this meeting, but since you're here.... ;-)
<slangasek>  * removed Qt4 from the phone
<sil2100> ;)
<slangasek>  * mid-cycle cloud sprint in Nuremberg
<slangasek>   * demo of a transactionally-updated server image
<slangasek>   * lots of good conversations around go, POWER, testing, image matrices, etc
<slangasek>  * next week:
<slangasek> robru: yeah, a meeting disappeared from my schedule at the last minute :)
<slangasek>   * on vacation Mon-Thu
<slangasek> (done)
<cjwatson> Cloud sprint.  Lots of discussions, some highlights:
<cjwatson>  - Worked around the sides of the ubuntu-core system-image build project.
<cjwatson>  - Discussed some image consolidation possibilities.
<cjwatson>  - Various things about containerising apps.
<cjwatson>  - Helped to generate click store keys.
<cjwatson>  - Taught Ben about Launchpad livefs image building so that he can move cloud images into that system.
<cjwatson> Organised launchpad-buildd 125 deployment.  You now have more verbose build logs. \o/
<cjwatson> Spent about a day fixing parted bug 1352252.
<ubottu> bug 1352252 in parted (Ubuntu) "Exception during partitioning whilst utopic server installations" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1352252
<cjwatson> Fixed systemd dependency problem that broke a bunch of build-dep installation.
<cjwatson> Released click 0.4.30.
<cjwatson> ..
<cjwatson> Even more RTM discussion.
<cjwatson> Next week: on holiday Wed-(next)Mon.
<xnox> cjwatson: \o/ cloud images on real livefs builders would be awesome
<cjwatson> Yeah, it looks quite tractable and Ben's keen
<xnox> and verbose build logs \o/
<robru> * wrote graph definitions for NFSS data
<robru>   - Long-Running-Test for Chris Gagnon
<robru>   - memevent tests for Chris Lee
<robru>   - fixed app-startup-benchmark for Max Brustkern
<robru>   - which means NFSS will shortly have support for 4 data sets once this lands.
<robru>   - landed massive refactoring that included Jasmine unit tests for NFSS code.
<robru> * landings, landings, landings
<robru> * various bugfixes and tweaks for citrain dashboard:
<robru>   - stop displaying stale spreadsheet data when backend indicates silo is empty
<robru>   - stop linkifying parentheses around URLs
<robru>   - sort the SVG status bubbles by size
<robru>   - when packages are in proposed, linkify them directly to the excuses permalink
<robru> (done)
<stgraber> Various RTM related discussions wrt system-image.
<stgraber> Worked on getting a basic ubuntu-core system-image.
<stgraber> Various LXC patches review and some fixes for the CI environment.
<stgraber> Preparation and work on Ubuntu 12.04.5 LTS.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<barry> phone: s-i getprop test suite fix.  LP: #1349478.  system-image 2.3.2.  discussing additional improvements for various other mobile toys.  LP: #1324241
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1349478 in Ubuntu system image "/usr/sbin/system-image-dbus:sqlite3.OperationalError:_check_for_update:emit_signal:UpdateAvailableStatus:__init__:__enter__:_cursor" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1349478
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1324241 in Ubuntu system image "Collect code coverage" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1324241
<barry> other: looked a bit at LP: #1351018.  more dialer-app py3 ap merges.  reviewed xnox's lazr.authentication branch.  patch pilot.  pytest-instafail 0.2.0-2.  Python issue 21539 (Path.mkdirs() exist_ok argument).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1352591 in apport (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1351018 apport-retrace does not update libraries in a sandbox" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1352591
<barry> done
<robru> yaaaay that's everybody
<sil2100> \o/
<xnox> oh. Who do i talk to to (a) make lazr.authentication project owned by lazr developers (b) make upstream release ?
<xnox> ~leonardr registered it, but ~benji is listed as maintainer.
<cjwatson> xnox: I'd suggest making it William's problem :)
<xnox> cjwatson: =)))))))))))
<cjwatson> We can probably track down people to reassign things to an appropriate current team
<xnox> cjwatson: excellent.
<cjwatson> inc. pypi
<barry> xnox: i think i have perms on the pypi project
<xnox> i feel like i want to finish the port up, so i'll ping wgrant/barry about things i don't have access to. =) sounds good.
<barry> xnox: yep.  i can admin a ton of lazr.* stuff
<robru> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Foundations Team Meeting | Current topic: Any Other Business
<xnox> Thanks everyone, it was a blast =) my last meeting for a while ;-)
<slangasek> does xnox get to tell us what he's working on?
<robru> xnox, you'll be back!
<xnox> robru: we'll see.
<sil2100> xnox: :<
<xnox> slangasek: which bits you'd want me to talk about? systemd? whoopsie ids? python port? rumors from the office?
<slangasek> xnox: the last!
<slangasek> or, I don't know
<slangasek> the whoopsie ids? :)
<xnox> slangasek: well, i emailed you brian and ev about whoopsie ids already =)
<xnox> slangasek: so in the office there are approximately 20 or so small boxes with bq written on them. I don't have a big enough bag to carry them all, what should I do?
 * xnox ponders about the post-room in the building.
<slangasek> yes, but you haven't shared with the whole team about whoopsie ids
<xnox> ok.
<xnox> #topic Whoopsie IDs
<xnox> So whoopsie when it generates crashes and submits them to error tracker uses a SHA512 hash of a "unique id" for a given machine.
<xnox> Typically, we want to gather sets of errors comming from the same machine, but we don't really care how it's identified (hence the SHA512)
<xnox> and we'd want to be able to track crashes from same machine across reinstalls.
<xnox> for that we need to create unique ids. There are a few strategies implemented at the moment.
<xnox> on i386/amd64 product_uuid is used.
<xnox> however id generation is now a library which is used by other projects as well.
<xnox> for example post-office service on ubuntu-touch uses those ids.
<xnox> (post-office is something like push notifications to the devices I believe)
<xnox> so product_uuid is ./sys/devices/virtual/dmi/id/product_uuid
<xnox> do check yours to see what it's like =) on some of my hardware it's a generic 1234567890, but generally it's unique enough.
<xnox> For virtual machines, one can pass --uuid flag to specify a product_uuid.
<slangasek> mine says "44444444444444"
<xnox> On armhf, product_uuid does not exist hence other bits of uniqueness are used - MAC address and IMEI (unique symcard modem id on GSM phones)
<robru> mine looks mostly unique but it has a couple 'FFFF' clauses in it
<xnox> slangasek: hm, we should probably black list it.
<cjwatson> slangasek: chosen by fair dice roll
<slangasek> :-)
<xnox> =)))))))))))
<stgraber> root@sateda:~# cat /sys/devices/virtual/dmi/id/product_uuid
<stgraber> cat: /sys/devices/virtual/dmi/id/product_uuid: No such file or directory
<xnox> .....
<xnox> in cases where id cannot be determined whoopsie falls back through each one. However, one can also override the ID by supplying environment variable
<cjwatson> Basically sensible on the systems I can readily get at
<xnox> CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER
<xnox> so all of above is good, however it's quite unstable ids through the lifetime of a single boot and/or other operating modes.
<stgraber> (that system ithout product_uuid is nothing fancy, it's a 1U supermicro server I use here as a router, it's got all the other product_* files, just not _uuid)
<slangasek> oh, see, it's a whitebox server, that's why
<slangasek> it's not unique
<xnox> For example: product_uuid is root owned file, thus regular userss for libwhoopsie cannot get the same id as whoopsie itself.
<xnox> also, if network interfaces are added or removed, and/or ofono (GSM/modem provider) is started or stopped ----- the unique id changes again.
<xnox> and lastly if CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER was used it's also unexposed to libwhoopsie users.
<xnox> I've come up with a three step plan to address above issues in the context of rtm and ubuntu touch platform.
<xnox> Firstly for the ubuntu-emulator, i've implemented generating uuid per instance at create time and passing --uuid option to qemu such that product_uuid exists on ubuntu-touch emulator i386
<xnox> Secondly for ubuntu-touch armhf, I drop whoopsie.override to export and set CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER cause armhf doesn't have product_uuid
<xnox> next, I propose changes to whoopsie to export a world readable /run/whoopsie-id with the ID it chose to use, with a matching change to libwhoopsie0 to read that "cache" file at top priority
<xnox> this way all root and non-root users are aligned on the same machine id through the lifetime of boot, irrespective of ofono starting/stopping and networking interfaces changing on the fly.
<slangasek> xnox: "export and set" - where does it get the value?
<xnox> and lastly, in addition to checking product_uuid, I propose to also check for /sys/class/android_usb/android0/iSerial which is Android specific serial number present on most recent devices.
<slangasek> xnox: oh - why in /run/whoopsie-id, instead of /var/lib so it doesn't have to write it each boot?
<xnox> slangasek: so $ ubuntu-emulator create -> uses libuuid to create ~/.local/share/ubuntu-emulator/$NAME/.uuid & .whoopsie-id (sha512 hash of .uuid)
<xnox> for i386 --uuid is passed from .uuid by ubuntu-emulator run.
<slangasek> yep - but you said armhf doesn't have uuid, so how do you inject it there?
<xnox> for armhf "env CRASH_DB_IDENTIFIER=sha512-from-whoopsie-id" is written into /etc/init/whoopsie.override as passing it as a kernel cmdline arg looked very ugly.
<slangasek> ah, so it's actually written by ubuntu-emulator into the filesystem
<slangasek> gotcha
<xnox> (so at create base image instance construction time)
<slangasek> nice
<slangasek> sounds pretty slick to me
<xnox> slangasek: re: /var/lib vs /run/ -> I am undecided. With all of the above fixes I believe ids are stable across reinstalls and hence stable on each boot, hence it can live in /run. I am open to writting ot /var/lib as well.
<xnox> which is similar to dbus/machine-id.
<slangasek> xnox: /var/lib guarantees its presence before whoopsie has started, or if whoopsie fails to start on a reboot for some reason
<xnox> slangasek: true. And e.g. installers could write that file out as well.
<slangasek> could still be a race if you needed it on first boot, but, well, you don't have much opportunity to crash things on first boot
<xnox> ..
<slangasek> xnox: thanks for pulling this together
<xnox> for an epilogue, I'd like to mention other machine IDs used on our systems.
<slangasek> and I think it's useful to have this explained before you go, as I imagine we'll be using it for some time to come
<slangasek> other machine IDs> uhoh :)
<bdmurray> xnox: so will you switch the merge proposal to use /var/lib?
<xnox> dbus uses /dev/urandom to essentially generate /var/lib/dbus/machine-id. All I know dbus system daemon does not start without it. But not much else about it.
<xnox> bdmurray: yeap.
<xnox> and there is a newish systemdish proposal for /etc/machine-id, which by default is generated by systemd first-boot system unit, and is /var/lib/dbus/machine-id compatible. In the future I can see it used more universally to identify "install id" (as it's persistant for a lifetime of a single installation)
<xnox> and systemd also offers "boot-id" to identify an individual boot. (helpful to sort out logs/events as to wether they belong to current or subsequent boot, when e.g. time jitters as well)
<xnox> /etc/machine-id is a bit broken at the moment as our livefs builders spit it out on disk image =) something to fix in the future.
<xnox> And that's it.
<xnox> More Q&A?!
<bdmurray> xnox: why don't you useâ½
<xnox> bdmurray: Ð° Ð·Ð°ÑÐµÐ¼? =)
<xnox> oh, there is whoopsie preferences dbus interface through which one can query their id.
<xnox> it's useful to browse your own crashes on errors.u.c when authenticated.
<slangasek> would be good to have that on the commandline
<xnox> dbus-send --system --print-reply --type=method_call --dest=com.ubuntu.WhoopsiePreferences /com/ubuntu/WhoopsiePreferences com.ubuntu.WhoopsiePreferences.GetIdentifier
<slangasek> fwiw I'm hearing reports from ogra_ + ev that the errors.u.c interface may not actually work
<xnox> slangasek: commandline just for you ^
<bdmurray> won't that be the identifier in /var/lib?
<slangasek> I don't want a commandline just for me
<slangasek> I want a commandline for the rest of us
<slangasek> ;)
<slangasek> bdmurray: yes
<xnox> bdmurray: once above is merged, it indeed will be =)
<xnox> all of my branches are not merged yet. I'll be sheparding for them to be merged.
 * slangasek nods
<ogra_> the ID seems to be changed regulary on the device or some such
<slangasek> which I believe means that you'll be nagging me after you've left the company and while I'm on vacation, if I'm not mistaken
<ogra_> (someone pointed me to a bug, got to dig it up)
<slangasek> ogra_: that part is known and is the bit we're already fixing
<ogra_> ah, k
<bdmurray> slangasek: hmm? it might not work because the system identifier has changed on the device
<ogra_> well then it should just work, no ?
<slangasek> ogra_: I thought you were asserting that crashes from a *current* run were not findable on errors.ubuntu.com.  If it's just the other thing, then yeah, it's well in hand
<xnox> ogra_: well, i have 3 merge proposals to address whoopsie id stability as explained above =)
<slangasek> awesomesauce
<slangasek> ok, so, I need to run here
<ogra_> slangasek, well, i didnt kill any apps, so i only referred to the crashes that i saw with .uploaded suffix
<ogra_> for these i wasnt able to find anything
<slangasek> ogra_: yes, so it's an open question whether they happened during the current boot or not
<ogra_> right
<slangasek> anyway - thanks for the meeting all
<bdmurray> ogra_: did you check /var/log/upstart/whoopsie.log for the OOPS ID?
<slangasek> keep up the great work
<bdmurray> ogra_: then look up the corresponding oops?
<slangasek> robru: don't forget to #endmeeting on your way out :)
<robru> is it over? ;-)
<xnox> dunno, do we have AOB people?
<xnox> (.... before we jump)
<ogra_> bdmurray, nope, i only checked the return value from the debus call
<ogra_> *dbus
<xnox> http://goo.gl/ncjXiY
<xnox> ogra_: check that ofono is running; check id from the dbus call; stop ofono, check id again.
<bdmurray> ogra_: so the unique identifier for the crash, the OOPS ID, gets storted in the whoopsie log file. from that oops page there will be a link to the problem bucekt
<xnox> ogra_: i believe at the moment they will be different, but with my proposed patches it will stay the same.
<ogra_> will chefck both (once i have the time ... meetings ... )
<robru> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  7 15:57:57 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-08-07-15.03.moin.txt
<xnox> cheers o/
<barry> thanks!
<robru> xnox, best of luck!
<sil2100> o/
<xnox> Danke Schon =)
<dholbach> hello hello
<knome> ola
<cub> Hi all
<elfy> hi knome cub
<dholbach> do we have anyone here from the Xubuntu and Ubuntu Studio teams?
<mhall119> hello
<knome> yep
<cub> <- Ubuntu Studio (though been away for quite some time)
<zequence> Hi
<zequence> <- Ubuntu Studio, as well
<zequence> Just wrapping up ISO testing for 12.04.5
<dholbach> all rightie...
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  7 17:05:11 2014 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<dholbach> #chair elfy mhall119
<meetingology> Current chairs: dholbach elfy mhall119
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Xubuntu team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Catching up with the Xubuntu team
<dholbach> knome, how's life? how's Xubuntu? how was the last release? :)
<knome> life is good but busy, xubuntu is good even if i'm not leading anymore ;)
<elfy> lol
<knome> so yeah, as some of you might know, we have a new project lead since the 14.04 release
<dholbach> knome, did you bring anyone else from the team? :)
<knome> 14.04 was great, got a lot of long-planned stuff in
<knome> well, elfy is kind of here...;)
<mhall119> knome: who is the new lead?
<knome> mhall119, Simon SteinbeiÃ (ochosi)
<knome> i guess we could have announced that in the CC list
<dholbach> ah, brilliant
<knome> i can get him send a mail to the list.
<mhall119> I recall seeing an announcement, just couldn't remember who
<dholbach> sure, a quick intro should be nice :)
<dholbach> elfy, so about the hats you're wearing today? :)
<knome> yep, i'll pass on the message
<elfy> dholbach: heh
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> do you feel you got everything done for the last release as you expected?
<elfy> QA for xubuntu during the last cycle was awesome
<knome> fwiw, from my point of view, everything is going well with simon leading, but there are maybe a few things here and there to pass on :)
<dholbach> what do you feel could work even better? :)
<knome> i'll be around, and we're documenting our process in the wiki, so pretty much *anybody* could take the leader hat in the future
<dholbach> that's brilliant
<dholbach> nothing better than having it all documented
<knome> it's mostly that simon leads in a different way and some minor details just need to be iron out
<knome> and he isn't on top of all the bureaucratic things he needs to handle
<dholbach> ah ok, so nothing in terms of the xubuntu project itself?
<knome> no, nothing is *wrong* :)
<mhall119> elfy: knome: who is this dev cycle going?
<mhall119> s/who/how/
<knome> mhall119, you mean "how"? :)
<knome> hehe, yeah
<knome> a bit slow, as always after an LTS release
<knome> we have a developer with uploader rights to the xubuntu package set now (Sean Davis aka bluesabre), so in that respect, we're much better!
<knome> dholbach, thanks for the help on that btw :)
<dholbach> anytime :)
<dholbach> I hope other folks will follow Sean :)
<elfy> so do I :)
<knome> me too
<dholbach> were you able to recruit some new folks as well in the last time?
<knome> sean was also nominated the xubuntu technical lead, so some sustainability is expected
<dholbach> wow, nice
<knome> during the whole LTS cycle (2 years), we got some new contributors, but (i think) also were able to get other people commit more
<knome> so while the numbers aren't up by dozens, the team feels more solid and has learned how to work together
<elfy> knome: I'd agree with that :)
<knome> i've no reason to expect a change in this movement.
<mhall119> knome: Global Jam is coming up again in September, that might be an opportunity to get some people involved if xubuntu has any specific tasks that need to be done and can be done at that point in time
<knome> mhall119, mmh, maybe... though as i said, things are relatively quiet this cycle
<dholbach> elfy, you mentioned QA - did you make any changes to the processes there for things to turn awesome, or how would you describe what changed?
<knome> it's summer, and everybody has given all they have to finalize the LTS release :)
<elfy> dholbach: I think mostly it was having someone just tracking that and pushing it - constantly
<elfy> I probably got a bit boring ;)
<knome> yep, elfy has done fantastic job ;)
<knome> it's unfortunately too easy to forget QA
<elfy> dholbach: the best bit was "found and reported 50 bugs during the cycle, that is more than for Ubuntu Desktop, Kylin Desktop, Lubuntu Desktop, Ubuntu Gnome and Common Desktop combined"
<elfy> http://xubuntu.org/news/xubuntu-14-04-qa-recap/
<elfy> I was really pleased with the response
<knome> getting the ISO/package tests in good shape has helped a lot!
<dholbach> wow, nice
<knome> now we have something concrete we can point people at when they ask how they can help with xubuntu QA
<elfy> yea - we did an awful lot of work getting the package tracker working
<elfy> well worth it in the end
<knome> definitely
<elfy> we made a new LP team so that people just doing QA for us had a concrete route into the Xubuntu team
<knome> i guess getting them done is just another sign that the team is wroking well together...
<elfy> :)
<knome> ^ yep, in addition to xubuntu-testers which is an open team which membership list isn't very accurate/up-to-date
<dholbach> is there anything you took on for this cycle which might interest new contributors?
<knome> even if xubuntu-qa doesn't come with any (technical) privilege/access, i think it's proven to be an important social team
<dholbach> yeah
<elfy> dholbach: it's mostly a cycle of consolidation and experimentation with apps I'd say
<dholbach> what's going to change?
<knome> and slowly continuing to improve stuff
<knome> we're dropping xchat
<knome> since it's unmaintained and all
<dholbach> and replace it with what?
<knome> nothing.
<knome> we have pidgin for people who need to join IRC occasionally
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> right
<knome> and xubuntu.org/irc/
<knome> which is also linked from our installation slideshow
<knome> we want to see what kind of feedback we get with this experiment
<dholbach> how is the feedback generally? how do people let you know about their experience? (apart from filing bugs ... :-))
<elfy> we get people in the support channel and on the mailing lists, social media (which pleia2 looks after)
<knome> dholbach, nothing specific has been planned yet, but we have active social media outlets, so probably at least the feedback from there
<knome> i'd imagine we're going to talk about more applications to drop/change in the future, so let's see how this goes ;)
<dholbach> yeah, that's always an interesting subject :)
<elfy> :)
<dholbach> is there anything you're concerned or worried about? anything the CC could help with?
<knome> to sum it up, i think we're doing pretty good
<knome> if there's something the CC thinks the xubuntu team can help with (like describing our processes or sth), you can always ask
<dholbach> sure
<dholbach> and the other way around :)
<knome> yep
<knome> #nick ochosi
<dholbach> thanks a lot for your hard work - it's great to hear that you're all happy in the team and happy with the results of your work
<dholbach> and thanks a bunch for making time today!
<knome> #action ochosi to send an imtroducing mail to the CC list
<meetingology> ACTION: ochosi to send an imtroducing mail to the CC list
<dholbach> mhall119, elfy: any more questions?
<knome> introducing, but whatever ;)
<elfy> not from me dholbach
<dholbach> elfy, I realise that last question was sort of assuming you were schizophrenic, but I thought it'd be polite to ask anyway ;-)
<elfy> ha ha ha
<mhall119> knome: elfy: you guys are doing a fantastic job, I love seeing the xubuntu project so energized
<elfy> it feels good to be part of it mhall119 :)
<dholbach> rock and roll! :)
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Ubuntu Studio team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Catching up with the Ubuntu Studio team
<dholbach> hello cub, zequence and everyone else who made it here today :)
<dholbach> how are you all doing? :)
<knome> mhall119, thanks *bows*
<elfy> hi zequence cub
<zequence> Hi
<cub> Hello
<dholbach> how are things in the Ubuntu Studio project?
<zequence> Stable, I would say :)
<dholbach> so the last cycle was more about maintenance rather than developing new things?
<dholbach> or could you maybe explain a bit?
<zequence> Well, development hasn't always hit the releases
<dholbach> meaning that some bits came in too late?
<zequence> was having a bit of a slow connection there
<zequence> ok, better
<zequence> We are few, so naturally, things go slowly
<zequence> And not all the work we do is for the actual ISO
<zequence> I've been studying the process of developing an Ubuntu flavor, and done some documentation on that
<dholbach> awesome - were you in touch with other flavour developers as well?
<zequence> We get a lot of help from the Xubuntu guys
<dholbach> that's great :)
<zequence> Right now, I'm mostly working on rewriting ubuntustudio-controls, while keeping the boat afloat
<zequence> Our desktop is to be fully synced with Xubuntus, just adding our multimedia packages on top of it, and in the future we will support the installation of more DEs
<dholbach> wow
<dholbach> this should make the maintenance a lot easier for you, I guess
<zequence> I would say we are about 3 guys now who can do some packaging work, though we don't do much of it
<zequence> None of us have much time, sadly
<zequence> Yes, since we don't really worry too much about the desktop, it makes sense to not focus too much on that
<cub> yes, that's a bit hard to get time, and with few people
<dholbach> do you have a list of things you would like to do, if there were more packaging folks around?
<zequence> I did get upload rights to the set of packages that we maintain, directly (not the package set)
<zequence> I guess we don't really need to do a lot of packaging
<zequence> We could however help shape the whole landscape of multimedia in some respects, audio especially
<dholbach> ok, sorry... I read the above as if you have more packaging tasks than hands on deck :)
<zequence> I'm sure there are plenty of bugs to fix, but we don't do a lot of testing
<zequence> elfy has helped us a bit on that
<elfy> or tried to at least :)
<zequence> and, the plan is we get more people helping out with QA
<elfy> early days
<zequence> The big goal now is 16.04. I feel farily confident that we can achieve everything we want by then
<dholbach> are there other things in the plans apart from making maintenance easier and add the ability to install different DEs?
<zequence> We're working on freedesktop and debtag categories, to make it easier to find and sort applications
<dholbach> nice
<zequence> The way we achieve realtime privilege for jack needs to change, so that its the same way on all Debian derived
<zequence> And, that will mean we need to sort it out in Debian as well
<zequence> That would make audio production on other UBuntu flavors much less painful to set up
<mhall119> have you spoken with the jack maintainer in debian?
<zequence> mhall119: not for a while
<zequence> It's been something I've been putting off for a long time, but I will absolutely have it done before 16.04
<dholbach> is there a bug tracking this work or something?
<zequence> Not directly. But, the issue with using audio group has been discussed
<dholbach> ok
<zequence> ubuntustudio-controls, when finished with all the features we have planned, would possibly become a preffered tool for audio newbies who want to use all the different audio servers that Debian derived has
<zequence> A first version will only administer realtime, and I will soon be SRUing it to trusty
<zequence> That will greatly simplify audio setup for newbies
<zequence> (who don't use Ubuntu Studio, that is)
<mhall119> zequence: will this work impact any other DEs or flavors?
<dholbach> oh yeah, that sounds like it
<zequence> mhall119: It will mostly be helpful on other flavors than Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> On Ubuntu Studio, the first user is in audio group, and thus gets realtime
<mhall119> zequence: but it won't break anything or cause them to need to change anything?
<zequence> No
<mhall119> ok
<dholbach> are you in touch with ubuntu studio users? do you have meetings?
<zequence> We haven'd had meeting for a long while. We don't have much user interaction, other than on our G+, fb, mail list, and so on
<zequence> Would be great if we had someone who only did that part
<zequence> I think I will want to do that, if we have more to offer, trying to shine a light on the distro
<dholbach> mhall119, ^ are you thinking what I'm thinking?
<dholbach> since we're doing these community q&a hangouts every week, I thought it might be a good idea to invite you folks to one, so you can show off some of the good work you've been doing
<dholbach> and maybe give a list of things to think about and see if they'd be willing to help out in the team
<cub> I have had hopes to get more involved in the community work, but time has been short.
<dholbach> sure
<cub> I had some contact with Jono before, but have not attended the Q&A for months
 * dholbach nods
<mhall119> dholbach: I think so brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?
<elfy> zequence: cub I've unfortunately gtg - good to see you both, look forward to seeing what comes of it all
<dholbach> mhall119, narf!
<elfy> and keep in touch re QA :)
<zequence> elfy: alright
<mhall119> dholbach: do we have anybody for next week's Q&A?
<dholbach> yeah, let's have a chat and see when we can get together and bring some ubuntu studio action to the airwaves
<cub> just to add to the contact with users, there are some activity on the ubuntu forum as well
<dholbach> mhall119, I don't know
<mhall119> cub: who had access to the social media accounts/pages for ubuntu studio?
<cub> Is that only you now zequence?
<zequence> me, and a couple of other people.
<zequence> madeinkobaia, so he can do the artwork himself
<zequence> holstein, I think
<mhall119> ok, as long as it's not just one person, that can often cause a bottleneck
<zequence> I could give you the rights, cub
<cub> sure
<dholbach> awesome :-D
<zequence> Oh, yeah, we had plans on doing youtube videos, tutorials on how to do different type of multimedia production
<zequence> cub has been involved in that as well
<dholbach> that sounds like a great people could get involved with
<dholbach> sounds like there's no shortage of good ideas :)
<cub> nope, mostly just time. :)
<dholbach> that's all the questions I had - anyone else? mhall119, elfy?
<mhall119> nothing else from me, but anything the CC or Community Team can do to help you promote your work we'll be happy to do
<zequence> That's usually not the big problem :)
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> thanks a lot making time
<dholbach> and thanks for your hard work!
<zequence> Thanks
<dholbach> :)
<dholbach> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business?
<dholbach> does anyone have any other business?
<cub> thanks
<dholbach> looks like that's it
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone!
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  7 18:07:21 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-08-07-17.05.moin.txt
<belkinsa> Woot!  The meetingology bot is back.
<phillw> belkinsa: it better be, or it's reserve is used :)
<belkinsa> Well, it was gone for some time from this channel.
<belkinsa> #startmeeting Membership Board 22 UTC Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  7 22:00:39 2014 UTC.  The chair is belkinsa. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Membership Board 22 UTC Meeting | Current topic:
<belkinsa> Who is all here for the Membership Board meeting
<silverlion> o/
<wxl> o/
<belkinsa> #chair chilicuil
<meetingology> Current chairs: belkinsa chilicuil
<belkinsa> Any of the members of the board and the other two applicants?
<belkinsa> We will wait a few more minutes.
<belkinsa> It seem that we will not have a quorum.
<belkinsa> Well, I will end the meeting and hope for the next time.
<belkinsa> Sorry everyone.
<belkinsa> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  7 22:04:02 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-08-07-22.00.moin.txt
<wxl> noooo :(
<belkinsa> Stay though.
<belkinsa> I am waiting for a response from #ubuntu-rmb
<belkinsa> chilicuil said that we will vote via ML.
<PabloRubianes> so in a few days you will get the results
<PabloRubianes> wxl: we will procede to vote your application by email
<wxl> thank you PabloRubianes
<belkinsa> silverlion ^^^
<PabloRubianes> is there other applicant but wxl here?
<chilicuil> PabloRubianes: don't forget silverlion
<belkinsa> silverlion is.
<PabloRubianes> ok sorry,,, the flu is killing me
<wxl> so sorry to hear PabloRubianes
<PabloRubianes> so you too will get the results soon
<wxl> vote by email works for me
<silverlion> one question if I may?
<PabloRubianes> silverlion: yes
<silverlion> PabloRubianes, from what I understood about the procedure of obtaining the membership here it was part of it to have the opportunity to speak in front of you folks
<silverlion> I mean how do we aka the applicants do have a chance to interact with you to clearify things and answer questions if any?
<PabloRubianes> silverlion: yes but as we did not get quorum to get the meeting we give you the oportunity to get the process via email
<PabloRubianes> so you don't have to wait another month
<belkinsa> PabloRubianes, does that mean that we can ask questions via e-mail to the applicant?
<belkinsa> we = as in the board
<chilicuil> silverlion: if any of the rmb members have questions they'll ask them by email, and you'll be able to answer them there
<belkinsa> Ah, I see.
<wxl> that's rather lovely actually
<silverlion> kk thank you
<PabloRubianes> belkinsa: yes
<wxl> thanks all for being willing to work outside your regularly scheduled program :)
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<chilicuil> your best bet is to review yet another time your wiki so you can include as much information as possible =)
<wxl> chilicuil: mine's already too long; don't tempt me. XD
<silverlion> chilicuil, honestly I'd much rather convince you with my contributions than with my wiki which could be words only
<silverlion> ;)
<chilicuil> silverlion: I understand, I didn't meant to write a tesis but to make sure you include as much links as possible to your contributions ;)
<wxl> ok thanks again folks
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<wxl> i'm going to depart
<belkinsa> Sorry for this.
<belkinsa> See ya wxl
<wxl> really no worries belkinsa
<wxl> considering my other RL responsibilities it's probably a good thing :)
<wxl> \o
<silverlion> lucky me that I am off-duty tomorrow
<silverlion> chilicuil, you challenged me ;) challenge accepted :P
 * belkinsa hides in the shadows
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-08-08
<renebarbosa> hello folks
<renebarbosa> somebody here can help me with the membership meeting?
<sarnold> renebarbosa: was that 2.5 hours ago?
<renebarbosa> yep :(
<sarnold> renebarbosa: http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-08-07-22.00.moin.txt
<renebarbosa> had issues with my car
<renebarbosa> i saw that log
<sarnold> did you see the chat after the meeting?
<renebarbosa> yep
<sarnold> okay good good :)
<renebarbosa> the votting will be done by e-mail
<renebarbosa> my doubt is
<renebarbosa> can I participate?
<sarnold> I can't speak for them but if you were on today's agenda, probably missing a meeting that didn't happen is no big ding :)
<renebarbosa> hmm
<renebarbosa> Who I Can talk to?
<pleia2> renebarbosa: you can email ubuntu-membership-boards@lists.ubuntu.com
<renebarbosa> thank you pleia2, I'll do it
<renebarbosa> =)
<pleia2> you're welcome :)
<renebarbosa> =D
<renebarbosa> pleia2, i did it. My message is awaiting moderator approval
<renebarbosa> are you a moderator? =)
<pleia2> renebarbosa: I'm not, but someone will let it through, no worries
<renebarbosa> okay
<renebarbosa> thank you again
<renebarbosa> you saved my night :P
<pleia2> happy to help
<hggdh> renebarbosa: just approved your email
<renebarbosa> hggdh, thanks
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-08-03
<bdmurray> !dmb ping
<bdmurray> micahg_work: Is there a command to ping the whole DMB?
<micahg_work> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> cyphermox, infinity, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<cyphermox> o/
<bdmurray> o/
<xnox> o/
<stgraber> sprinting this week here, so I'm only vaguely kinda around, hopefully you guys can do the meeting without me
<bdmurray> stgraber: it doesn't look like there is anything to vote on, unless Unit193 shows up.
<Laney> hello
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Aug  3 15:06:00 2015 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<bdmurray> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of previous action items
<bdmurray> micahg_work: How is getting Noskcaj feeback going?
<micahg_work> not great, I haven't had time to compile, if someone else has time, I'd be willing to hand that off, otherwise, I will try again to get it done over the next 2 weeks
<bdmurray> micahg_work: Could you elaborate on what is required so people know what they are getting into?
<micahg_work> basically a summary of what the reasons were why the DMB wasn't in favor of granting Xubuntu packageset and MOTU status as well as requesting and compiling any additional information from DMB members on the subject
<bdmurray> okay, is there anybody else who could take that on?
<micahg_work> *in favor at this time
<micahg_work> bdmurray, you suggested starting a pad where can can collaborate on a response, would you be up for doing that and DMB members can add things at their leisure
<micahg_work> *where we cab
<micahg_work> *can
<bdmurray> sure
<Laney> you'll have to chivvy people along
<micahg_work> then, I or someone else can compile the responses from the ML as well and hopefully once the ball is rolling, we'll be able to take care of this quickly
<bdmurray> #action bdmurray to setup a pad for the dmb to collaborate on response for noskcaj
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray to setup a pad for the dmb to collaborate on response for noskcaj
<micahg_work> yes, I know, but if the pad is there, it's easier to do that
<Laney> I can almost guarantee nobody will do anything proactively
<Laney> :( :( :(
<Laney> ): ): ):
<bdmurray> Laney: Do you think that is something we should discuss?
<Laney> not really
<bdmurray> okay, moving on then
<bdmurray> micahg_work: What about the election results, is that taken care of?
<micahg_work> #link https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2015-July/002132.html
<micahg_work> only thing I think is left is team changes, TB seems not to have responded
<Laney> I think JFDI
<micahg_work> sure, you poked stgraber already :)
<Laney> sure did
<Laney> one thing that comes to mind is...
<Laney> we have 0 onboarding process
<Laney> I wonder if we could do something there
<Laney> or should..?
<micahg_work> well, there are the DMB wiki pages, we try to document the processes
<cyphermox> depends, approvals don't typically span multiple weeks
<micahg_work> were you referring to DMB members of developers?
<cyphermox> ie. I like to believe getting Noskca feedback is an exception rather than the rule
<micahg_work> s/of/or/
<Laney> DMB
<cyphermox> I read this as onboarding a new member in the DMB
<Laney> sure we could say "go away and read all of the public documentation"
<Laney> but there are some things which might not be in there
<Laney> like... useful resources to check on someone's history (sponsorship tracker thing)
<Laney> how to manipulate packagesets (edit-acl)
<Laney> where the code to update the auto-packagesets is
<cyphermox> yes, that could certainly help
<Laney> umm, how we vote to +4 and if it doesn't reach that then defer to email
<Laney> when you can JFDI a packageset change (if it matches the description)
<bdmurray> and last week or so there was discussion about which team to add a per package uploader to so they could target bugs to a release and vote for the dmb
<Laney> which teams to add new devs to
<Laney> exactly
<micahg_work> managing seed based packagesets and what constitutes a reason not to update
<Laney> plenty of stuff
<Laney> how to do a vote for a new member
<micahg_work> maybe we should create a wiki page of wishlist wiki pages
<Laney> I was just thinking DMB/New unless it becomes too mad
<bdmurray> Laney: that sounds good to me
<Laney> the DD-PPU thing
<Laney> I think we've grown a lot of mostly opaque process
<Laney> anyway, action me to start it
<bdmurray> #action Laney to start an onboarding page for new dmb members
<meetingology> ACTION: Laney to start an onboarding page for new dmb members
<bdmurray> it looked like the dmb-ping was already updated, correct?
<Laney> /query ubottu !dmb-ping
<micahg_work> yes, Unit193 took care of that for us
<Laney> FFS
<Laney> dell guy is here, sorry
<bdmurray> and corey bryant is in the ubuntu-server-dev team now, so that's done.
<Laney> I'll be back in however long it takes to change a keyboard
<Laney> please discuss the thing, I think it's quite clear but I'll help later if I can
<Laney> ttyl
<micahg_work> I think I missed an action item which Laney took care of, updating the input-methods packageset, I'm not sure if mozc made it in, I saw the l-s upload
<micahg_work> I'll take care of that later if it hasn't been
<bdmurray> #action micahg_work to confim if mozc packageset change happened.
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg_work to confim if mozc packageset change happened.
<bdmurray> #topic PPU/Packageset uploader applications and membership by default
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: PPU/Packageset uploader applications and membership by default
<bdmurray> What's this about?
<cyphermox> what teams we put people into in the PPU case, I believe
<bdmurray> micahg_work: So I'd added teward to ubuntu-dev and you indicated that wasn't what we should do?
<micahg_work> so, I'm not sure how it started, there was a question about teward not being in ubuntu-dev, in previous cases where people had ubuntu membership + PPU, we've added them to ubuntu-dev, I'm not sure if that was the impetus for the discussion or something else, I called this practice into question as it didn't seem appropriate as dev membership grants voting rights for dev related things which should require some level of active involvement
<micahg_work>  in the Ubuntu dev community
<micahg_work> *which IMHO
<teward> micahg_work: this was started by bdmurray's bot tagging a debdiff as 'patch' and subscribing sponsors for an nginx bug
<teward> i have PPU rights for nginx, so sponsorship subscription was irrelevant and unnecessary at the time
<teward> i pinged bdmurray to request removal of sponsors on that bug as it wasn't one that needed the sponsors' attention
<micahg_work> also, the only time there's a difference is PPU for individual packages as packagesets and other dev group membership implicitly grant ubuntu-dev membership
<teward> that's the beginning of the case in question.
<bdmurray> teward: thanks for the reminder. micahg_work did you have more to add?
<teward> I didn't bother tracking much of the specifics after that time.
<teward> bdmurray: you're welcome.  *returns to lurk mode*
<micahg_work> ah, then this is my fault, I never made an icon for ubuntu-uploaders
<micahg_work> that would have solved that particular issue
<bdmurray> ?
<bdmurray> how's that?
<micahg_work> oh, wait
<micahg_work> well, it would help anyone who's using that LP addon
<bdmurray> micahg_work: this is a launchpadlib script
<micahg_work> I'm not sure if the sponsoring page actually needs to be updated to recognize ubuntu-uploaders or if it just uses the archive ACLs
<micahg_work> I think the point or order on which team by default should be discussed still regardless
<micahg_work> s/or/of/
<bdmurray> agreed
<bdmurray> micahg_work: so this person is an ubuntu-member and has PPU - should they be added to ubuntu-dev?
<micahg_work> that's another point of contention I suppose, we've done it in the past, I don't personally agree with it
<micahg_work> I think the bar of significant and sustained dev contribution makes sense for having dev voting rights vs significant and sustained Ubuntu contribution
<bdmurray> And somebody with PPU doesn't have significant and sustained dev contribution?
<micahg_work> not necessarily, that's why we split out uploaders from dev, I thought the idea was the lower that bar (not the technical bar of understanding packaging) to make package maintenance more accessible for people that care about specific packages that might not need to be updated frequently
<micahg_work> well, that's how I remember it at lesat
<micahg_work> s/lesat/least/
<micahg_work> if people were contributing significantly, they were welcome to apply for dev membership at the same time, but I was under the impression that it was not the default for PPU (only)
<bdmurray> okay, is this something we can work on as a part of the onboarding documentation?
<bdmurray> micahg_work: do you recall about what year these discussions took place?
<micahg_work> I think it was within the last 2 years, I can find the references a bit later
<micahg_work> actually, uploaders team was created 2014-01-13 (thank you Launchpad)
<micahg_work> so, would be right around then
<bdmurray> Okay, I'll look into the discussion around that then and send an email to the team. Does that sound good?
<micahg_work> yep, we should probably clarify (and maybe re-announce) the policy once we decide on it, I think we were expecting many more people applying for PPU
<bdmurray> #action bdmurray to find discussion about PPU and ubuntu-dev membership
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray to find discussion about PPU and ubuntu-dev membership
<xnox> my understanding that PPU does imply ubuntu membership.
<xnox> one has to sign the code of conduct to be part of ubuntu-dev, and that's by default expected.
<micahg_work> I think the same should be required of uploaders
<xnox> and i don't want to underestimate the PPU contributions. PPU libreoffice, or PPU upstart, or PPU systemd are huge amounts of work and complexity.
<xnox> micahg_work: and that is the case today.
<micahg_work> it's not necessarily exclusive, just not the default IMHO
<xnox> micahg_work: you can dig up the threads way back, when DMB chased up, pinged and kicked out everyone out of the ubuntu membership (via ubuntu-dev) that didn't satify requires (e.g. code of conduct signed etc.) and from then on it became the default.
<xnox> do you remember that process way back then?
<xnox> (before my time, as far as i recall correctly, or maybe not)
<micahg_work> the applicant is welcome to apply for membership when applying for PPU if they feel they've made significant and sustained dev contributions, the idea was to allow those who have the technical know-how but don't necessarily have the time to commit for significant and sustained contribution to be able to contribute as well
<micahg_work> xnox, hrm, that's quite a while back, I can dig a bit, sure
<xnox> my understanding of status quo, was that all PPUs are applying for membership, and can choose for membership requirements to be lifted if they so request (and thus ask for PPU-sans-memberhip) Granted that's not obvious on the application page.
<xnox> however, i wonder if that became obsolete.
<xnox> most PPU-sans-membership no longer apply, and instead use CI train/airline/silo stuff.
<xnox> thus imho, it's a historical artifact we should forget about =)
<micahg_work> that's for Canonical people, the policy was meant for the community at large
<bdmurray> we are running a bit short on time, how about we dig a bit and take it to email?
<micahg_work> I can think that one appropriate application is DMs in Debian, PPU w/out membership would be a natural extension if they care about their packages, but don't do much in Ubuntu
<micahg_work> bdmurray, yes, that sounds good
<bdmurray> I think somebody should follow up with Unit193 regarding their application. Any volunteers?
<micahg_work> bdmurray, yes, I can
<bdmurray> #action micahg_work to follow up with Unit193 about their application
<micahg_work> I know the timing of our meetings was a bit hard
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg_work to follow up with Unit193 about their application
<bdmurray> #topic any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: any other business
<bdmurray> Anything else?
<bdmurray> Alright, thanks for everyone.
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Aug  3 16:00:05 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-08-03-15.06.moin.txt
<Laney> bah
<Laney> I thought it was quite clear, I'm susprised that this is causing problems
<Laney> did nobody read my devel-permissions mail?
<micahg_work> I did read the mail, I thought we were going to discuss, we did to some extent, people wanted more source material I guess
<Laney> like what?
<Laney> this is not going to get resolved
<Laney> ffs
<micahg_work> people wanted to read the original discussions from when we decided about PPU, there wasn't much time for people to read up as this was a late breaking agenda item and I believe the people that attended the meeting save for me and you were not on the board at the time the policy was implemented
<Laney> meh
<Laney> if we randomly decide to change what was previously agreed I'm going to be pissed off
<micahg_work> I don't think that's the goal, I think you and I recall differently what was agreed upon, and people want to check the archives, I'll do that as well, I don't think we want to change anything that was agreed upon
<Laney> OK, hope so
<jjohansen> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Aug  3 16:31:45 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Seyeong Kim (xtrusia) provided debdiffs for trusty-wily for pcre3 (LP: #1396768)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1396768 in pcre3 (Ubuntu Vivid) "pcre3 vulnerability CVE-2014, 2015" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1396768
<tyhicks> Your contributions are greatly appreciated! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm out all week as I'm going to a conference
<mdeslaur> today I'm preparing my travel laptop
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm taking cve triage for mdeslaur this week, since he's gone and I'll be at a conference next week, when it would be my turn.
<sbeattie> I'm testing my fix to the apparmor 2.10 regression that prevented it from migrating to wily from proposed
<sbeattie> I've also got openjdk-6 on my plate this week
<sbeattie> That's pretty much my priorities for this week. tyhicks, you're up.
<tyhicks> I'm on community this week
<tyhicks> I have a couple designs to work on
<tyhicks> I have an embargoed issue
<tyhicks> I need to drum up someone to verify the fix for bug #1473584
<ubottu> bug 1473584 in linux-manta (Ubuntu Vivid) "AUDIT_USER_AVC messages are not printk'ed when auditd is not running" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1473584
<tyhicks> I think jjohansen is going to help me there if he has a chance
<jjohansen> sure
<tyhicks> and I need to finish the fix for a stale dcache issue in eCryptfs reported on Friday
<tyhicks> shouldn't be much work left there
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I need to finish investigating bind mount issue with apparmor lxd in snappy
<jjohansen> look into secure exec around the 4.2 rebase of apparmor
<jjohansen> send some apparmor patches upstream for 4.3
<jjohansen> still need to finish reviewing the dconf userspace patches
<jjohansen> continue working on the fix for bug #1448912
<ubottu> bug 1448912 in AppArmor "BUG: unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference (aa_label_merge)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1448912
<jjohansen> thats it for me sarnold you're up
<sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> I need to have a conversation with till about testing ippusbxd, when doing the mir I wondered if it was working as advertised, and realized that we can't really test this thing end-to-end like we do with most packages
<sarnold> most of the work with the mir is done, it'd just be useful to have an irc chat with till, rather than back-and-forth over bugmail. oh well, it'll work either way..
<sarnold> I suspect I'll pick up more MIRs this week, though may do reactive work if needed
<tyhicks> sarnold: he should be catchable over irc
<sarnold> and might do an apparmor review or two for a change of pace
<sarnold> tyhicks: yeah, I suspect summertime has just made it less likely for us to see each other
 * tyhicks nods
<tyhicks> sarnold: would you be able to publish the openstack updates today?
<sarnold> tyhicks: sure
<tyhicks> sarnold: that'll be a huge help - thanks!
<tyhicks> sarnold: we can sync up afterwards
<sarnold> it'll feel great have those moving :)
<tyhicks> Chris is likely having connectivity issues
<tyhicks> yes
<tyhicks> I think we're done with stand-up reports
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xorg-server-lts-utopic.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lft.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libspoon-perl.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libdancer-perl.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lwipv6.html
<tyhicks> mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Aug  3 16:48:03 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-08-03-16.31.moin.txt
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks :)
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-08-04
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Aug  4 17:00:02 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Wily
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
<bjf> o/
<sforshee> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<ppisati> o/
<smb> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have rebased our Wily master-next branch to the latest upstream
<ogasawara> v4.2-rc5 and uploaded to our ~canonical-kernel-team PPA.  We are
<ogasawara> resolving fallout from DKMS packages at this time before we proceed
<ogasawara> uploading to the archive.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Aug 6 - 14.04.3 (~2 days away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Aug 20 - Feature Freeze (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Aug 27 - Beta 1 (~3 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Sep 24 - Fina Beta (~7 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-cves.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/Utopic/Vivid (bjf)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/Utopic/Vivid (bjf)
<bjf> tatus for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *     Precise - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *      Trusty - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  lts-Utopic - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *      Vivid  - Verification & Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 26-Jul through 15-Aug
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          24-Jul   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 26-Jul - 01-Aug   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 02-Aug - 08-Aug   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<bjf> 09-Aug - 15-Aug   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Aug  4 17:03:17 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-08-04-17.00.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-08-06
 * slangasek waves
<pitti> o/
 * cyphermox waves
<sil2100> \o
<bdmurray> o/
<tdaitx> \o
<infinity> --o
<barry> ~o~
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  6 15:02:27 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx)
<slangasek> pitti doko tdaitx barry cyphermox sil2100 infinity caribou robru bdmurray slangasek
<pitti> WIN!
<pitti> autopkgtest cloud:
<pitti>  - Add basenode/landscape/ksplice charms, various bug fixes
<pitti>  - Completely re-deploy the whole machinery to test deployment script changes and errors
<pitti>  - Set up AMQP/swift workers for armhf/ppc64el
<pitti>  - Roll out britney to use the cloud results \o/, announce it
<pitti>  - update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration to current system
<pitti>  - start documenting the new system on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration/AutopkgtestInfrastructure (TBC)
<pitti> other:
<pitti>  - three full days of g++ 5 transitions; fixed many FTBFS/broken symbols/etc., started some followup transitions, each of which triggered two more transitions; wash, rinse, sob, repeat
<pitti> attention: will swap tomorrow with Sunday
<pitti> [END]
<pitti> doko is travelling FYI
<tdaitx> ### past week
<tdaitx> - fixed quota's FTBFS; LP: #1480047
<tdaitx> - getting familiar with bugsquad and MOTU
<tdaitx> - looked over OpenJDK 7 bugs, did some triage, took notes
<tdaitx> * LP: #1232322 | invalidated for OpenJDK 7 (different issues under the same bug); set as incomplete for Scilab and asked for steps to reproduce;
<tdaitx> * LP: #1389493 | set as incomplete and asked for more info (unable to reproduce)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1480047 in quota (Debian) "failure to build on wily proposed due to wrong LDFLAGS usage" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1480047
<tdaitx> * LP: #1032936 | marked as duplicate of LP: #1101348
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1232322 in scilab (Ubuntu) "Failed to write core dump. Core dumps have been disabled" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1232322
<tdaitx> * LP: #1101348 | reported upstream to IcedTea #2571; to be accepted on 2.6.2 (if accepted we can remove xrender.patch from openjdk-7)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1389493 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "Package dropped pulse-java.jar, breaking some development environments" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389493
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1101348 in OpenJDK "duplicate for #1032936 xrender pipeline creates graphics corruption" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1101348
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1101348 in OpenJDK "xrender pipeline creates graphics corruption" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1101348
<tdaitx> * LP: #1226962 | does not seem to be an OpenJDK bug; triager asked the user for feedback
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1226962 in unity-settings-daemon (Ubuntu) "Hotkeys not functional in non-latin keyboard layout" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1226962
<tdaitx> * LP: #1472480 | incomplete, asked the user for more data on the reported conflict
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1472480 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "package openjdk-7-jre-headless (not installed) failed to install/upgrade: a tentar sobreescrever '/etc/java-7-openjdk/fontconfig.properties' partilhado, que Ã© diferente de outras instÃ¢ncias do pacote openjdk-7-jre-headless:amd64" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1472480
<tdaitx> * LP: #1479703| same as above
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1479703 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "package openjdk-7-jre-headless (not installed) failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite shared '/etc/java-7-openjdk/fontconfig.properties', which is different from other instances of package openjdk-7-jre-headless:amd64" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1479703
<tdaitx> * LP: #1445598 | asked for more information from the user; Google'ing led me to a few similar and weird errors (double free corruption in java), including an interesting and very old conflict between libmoon and IcedTea public symbols
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1445598 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "java assert failure: *** Error in `/usr/lib/jvm/java-7-openjdk-amd64/bin/java': double free or corruption (!prev): 0x00007f46303fa9a0 ***" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1445598
<tdaitx> - fixed small errors in wiki pages
<tdaitx> - nÌ¶oÌ¶tÌ¶iÌ¶fÌ¶iÌ¶eÌ¶dÌ¶^W annoyed people about wrong info in Canonical's Google pages
<tdaitx> ### next week
<tdaitx> - continue practicing
<tdaitx> * keep triaging openjdk bugs and fixing FTBFS packages
<tdaitx> * look for new merges to do
<tdaitx> ### waiting/on hold
<tdaitx> - TCK validation for OpenJDK 7 (doko)
<tdaitx> ### updates
<tdaitx> - pitti accepted both FTBFS (LP: #1479474 and LP: #1480047) and fixed the Changelog entries to include the bug refs (thanks pitti!)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1479474 in libedit (Debian) "failure to detect libbsd on build due to wrong LDFLAGS usage" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1479474
<tdaitx> *** (done)
<barry> short week due to return from vacation
<barry> python3.5 transition.  wrote/adapted script to keep ~pythoneers/py35asdefault ppa in sync with archive.  fixed py3cairo (1.10.0+dfsg-4ubuntu1).  waiting on maintainer to update that in debian.  other package fixes.  current ppa success rate: ~81% (928/1143)
<slangasek> tdaitx: looking for new merges> you know about the merges.ubuntu.com pages?
<barry> sympathizing w/pitti's rinse/repeat/sob cycle :)
<barry> --done--
<cyphermox>  * lupin bugfix for LP: #1479760.
<cyphermox>  * updated wpa to 2.4.
<cyphermox>  * various trusty SRUs for ppc64el.
<tdaitx> slangasek, indeed, I do, I fixed one the other week
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1479760 in lupin (Ubuntu) "iso-scan/filename= does not search btrfs partitions" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1479760
<cyphermox>  * ubiquity SRU for LP: #1418105.
<cyphermox>  * network-manager: various ofono fixes + fixed periodic wifi scanning (LP: #1445134)
<cyphermox>  * finished preparing multipath-tools SRU for trusty:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1418105 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Trusty) "Trusty: testing .2 the oem session on i386 leaves the oem wifi password in place" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1418105
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1445134 in network-manager (Ubuntu RTM) "Network manager never scanning for new access points" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1445134
<cyphermox>    - uploaded to ppa:mathieu-tl/installer-dev
<cyphermox>    - needs some extra testing with USB devices, etc. on real hardware
<cyphermox>    - should be in -proposed today or tomorrow once this extra testing is done
<cyphermox> â¹âââº
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM and PD status meetings and discussions
<sil2100> - Switching production commitlogs to bileto
<sil2100> - Registering project for landing-team tools
<sil2100> - gcc-5 transition misc stuff:
<sil2100>   * Looked into the autopkgtest failure for qtcreator-plugin-ubuntu
<sil2100>   * The latter blocked on the boost transition, proposed a seed change to unblock
<sil2100> - live-build apt lists removal analysis, fix proposal
<sil2100> - Sync xserver-xorg-driver-* fixes to overlay to fix desktop environments
<sil2100> - Follow up on the vivid-overlay translations batch copy
<sil2100> - More work on the new touch release schedule
<sil2100> - Quick check on our touch package build times, regardin the missing parallel builds issue
<sil2100> - Quick look at the PD custom tarball creation/preparation
<sil2100> - Prepare a placeholder channel for ubuntu-pd
<sil2100> - Work on the dashboard QA status coloring - superseeded by Robert's change
<sil2100> - Sick on Monday and part of Tuesday
<sil2100> (done)
<infinity> - Kernel SRU mangling
<infinity> - All point release, all the time
<infinity> (done)
<robru> * Bileto rollout
<robru>  - Fixed 3 unhandled tracebacks that were only discovered in production
<robru>  - Fixed various bugfixes and papercuts as reported by users
<robru> * CI Train Jenkins
<robru>  - Leaked Bileto's API token, had a new one generated and fixed code not to leak again
<robru> * +1 Maintenance
<robru>  - Just starting to get some training on how this works, submitted 1 debdiff ;-)
<robru> (done)
<slangasek> tdaitx: ok, great
<slangasek> infinity: oh man, now I'm going to look like I copied your report
<bdmurray> submitted RTs about updating code on errors frontends (14.10 EoL)
<bdmurray> submitted RT about broken graphite stats for cassandra servers
<bdmurray> investigation into halted iproute2 phased updates
<bdmurray> reported kernel LP: #1481038 re iproute2 crashes / kernel SRU regression
<bdmurray> finalized tool to remove EoL crash information from the OOPS table in cassandra
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1481038 in linux (Ubuntu Trusty) "iproute2 crashes being reported since kernel version 3.13-0-59-generic" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1481038
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have EoL crash information removed from cassandra
<bdmurray> working on displaying package origin in versions table on bucket page                                                                         irc discussion re bug LP: #1471903
<infinity> slangasek: I assume yours is "All C++, all the time"?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1471903 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "-updates, -security missing from apt lists" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1471903
<bdmurray> merged smoser's ubuntu-reports merge proposal
<bdmurray> investigation into disabled cronjobs on cranberry for ubuntu-reports
<bdmurray> update of launchpadlib authentication on cranberry for said cronjobs
<bdmurray> attempted to create a canonistack instance from which to run cassandra queries
<slangasek> infinity: ayup
<bdmurray> made travel arrangements for cassandra summit
<bdmurray> ensured meta-release was correct with regards to Lucid's status and point releases
<bdmurray> â done
<slangasek>  * all g++, all the time
<slangasek>   * batch-uploaded binary package renames for ~300 libraries
<slangasek>   * batch generated transition tracker entries for same at http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/
<slangasek>   * working on manually fixing up the things that didn't work, tracked at http://pad.ubuntu.com/gcc-5-transition
<slangasek>   * starting to traverse the stacks in priority and triggering rebuilds for dependent packages where needed
<slangasek>   * test phone image built for the phone out of wily-proposed; critical issues found and being worked on (bug #1481279)
<ubottu> bug 1481279 in platform-api (Ubuntu) "GCC5: Phone restarts if you click on anything in the first page of welcome wizard" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1481279
<slangasek>   * will build test images for desktop and server also this week
<slangasek> any questions re: status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> ok.  anything else this week for discussion?
<infinity> slangasek: Any more news on sprinty things?
<sil2100> Do we know about the sprint location already?
 * sil2100 prays for EU
<slangasek> infinity, sil2100: not yet unfortunately
<slangasek> sil2100: but you're getting your passport sorted anyway, right? :)
<barry> oh is there a sprint planned?
<slangasek> barry: week of September 14
<slangasek> a bit short notice at this point
<slangasek> and it's not finalized yet, which means the whole thing could fall apart instead and we go back to the drawing board...
<sil2100> slangasek: yeah, well, umm, I'm planning on it! But I would need to drive to my home town to do that, and it's sooo hot...!
<slangasek> drive to your home town?  What is this, the Roman census?
<tdaitx> I'm also getting my passport and visa sorted out... will be a really close call if it is in the US
<slangasek> so if people did have some spare cycles this week, we could still use more help with the g++ transition
<slangasek> the pad link I posted has a rough list of work to be done, including some library packages that need manual fixes before they can be built with gcc5
<slangasek> http://pad.ubuntu.com/gcc-5-transition
<pitti> note that the pad only links to a handful of lib transitions, but it's really several hundreds
<pitti> and just today I found at least three more libs to rename/to transition, it's a bit like a Hydra
<slangasek> most of the coordination is happening on #ubuntu-release, though some can be via #ubuntu-devel
<slangasek> yes, there were originally 361 candidate libraries that we knew /might/ need package name changes
<bdmurray> a hydra or HYDRA?
<slangasek> those were just the first-level libraries, that didn't simply fail to build with g++5
<slangasek> and since the point release is still happening today in #ubuntu-release, let's feel free to use #ubuntu-devel for coordinating
<slangasek> so anyone with spare cycles and not sure where to pitch in can grab me there
<slangasek> anything else?
<barry> yah shiboken :)
<infinity> Please send coffee.
 * slangasek pours the grounds into the ethernet port
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  6 15:23:30 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-08-06-15.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<barry> thanks!
<tdaitx> thanks
<pitti> thanks all
<czajkowski> hi who is here from the loco council or the technical board ?
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-08-07
<dholbach> good morning
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-08-09
<Kilos> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-08-08
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> hello
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Aug  8 16:30:57 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> transitional browser-support interface has landed in upstream (chrome/chromium/electron/firefox)
<jdstrand> system-trace interface and /usr/src mounting has landed in upstream (bcc)
<jdstrand> dbus-app has been reviewed and still in progress. will be working on that this week
<jdstrand> snappy PR reviews. Notably, pluggable-storage, zigbee-dongle, docker and lxd
<jdstrand> I'm working on pluggable-storage right now
<jdstrand> there are various others I've gotten pings on
<jdstrand> review tools updates related to browser-support and os snap
<jdstrand> I think between all that and various iterations on existing PRs of mine, that's it for me
<jdstrand> but if not, I'll start to look at CLONE_NEWUSER vs snap-confine and/or snap-confine with os mounts
<jdstrand> that's it for me
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> (in other words, I'll go down the list in the snappy lane)
<mdeslaur> I'm about to publish some curl updates
<mdeslaur> and I'll be going down the cve list after that
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> who's next?
<tyhicks> me
<tyhicks> I'm on CVE triage this week
<tyhicks> I will be assisting with some MIR review work
<tyhicks> I'll be working on seccomp complain mode for snappy
<tyhicks> it looks like I need to investigate AppArmor SRU autopkgtest regressions
<tyhicks> and then maybe I'll get to some review tools work for squashfs bugs
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I have a short week this week, I will be out wednesday and thursday, and maybe but hopefully not friday
<jjohansen> I am going to finish up on my review of the gsettings apparmor work
<jjohansen> and continue chasing a couple oopses that have surfaced in the stacking work that is supposed to fix the name lookup errors
<tyhicks> jjohansen: are you ready to send a pull request to the kteam after those oopses are fixed?
<jjohansen> tyhicks: hopefully, pending further testing, with lxc etc
<tyhicks> great to hear!
<jjohansen> thats it for /me sarnold you are up
<tyhicks> I don't see sarnold around yet
<tyhicks> he'll be focused on MIRs this week (he's in the happy place)
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: go ahead
<chrisccoulson> I've got Chromium to sponsor this week
<chrisccoulson> I also want to finish off my instructions for updating Flash (I did start that, but just haven't finished it off yet)
<chrisccoulson> I spent quite a bit of time last week debugging a couple of regressions in oxide, but managed to get through a few items on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/oxide/+spec/converged-device-support. I want to get through a few more this week
<chrisccoulson> And also have a play with snappy
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<sarnold> heh tyhicks could stand in for my reports :) happy place, MIRs, and also snapping a snap with snapcraft for snap and snapd on snappy ubuntu core. I'll try to make it snappy. (Get it? alligator sandwich?)
<tyhicks> :)
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/sblim-sfcb.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/macopix.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gamera.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/t-coffee.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lsyncd.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<sarnold> heh, "gamera"... "gamera is really neat! gamera is filled with meat!"
<mdeslaur> lol
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Aug  8 16:49:31 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-08-08-16.30.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks !
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
 * genii washes out the coffeepot
 * DJones hands genii this https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JYggqDHbW2k/maxresdefault.jpg
<genii> DJones: Hehe, yesssss!
<tsimonq2>  /ts
<tsimonq2> whoops sorry
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-08-10
<esi> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-08-11
<sil2100> o/
<robru> \o
<cyphermox> o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug 11 15:03:04 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> robru caribou cyphermox mwhudson sil2100 xnox infinity bdmurray pitti slangasek doko chiluk barry tdaitx
<robru> yay!
<cyphermox> oh, so close
<robru> very short week due to vacation mon-wed
<chiluk> slangasek: caribou is on vacation this week.
<robru> started porting publish job from jenkins to bileto, but just a tiny stub, not functional yet
<robru> (done)
<slangasek> chiluk: copy, thanks
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> trusty:
<cyphermox> - investigate upgrade prompt bug for shim-signed (bug LP: #1607929)
<cyphermox> yakkety:
<cyphermox> - NetworkManager bugs (bug LP: #1589401)
<cyphermox> - check legacy grub uses in grub-installer
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1607929 in shim-signed (Ubuntu) "(trusty, debconf passthrough) package shim-signed 1.17~14.04.1+0.8-0ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script was killed by signal (Terminated)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1607929
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1589401 in NetworkManager "cannot view wifi networks after re-enabling wifi" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1589401
<cyphermox>  - console-conf networking code
<cyphermox> - debug ubiquity non-english translation crash (bug LP: #1611010)
<cyphermox> - debugging network-manager openvpn split-tunnelling (bug LP: #1603898)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1611010 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "yakkety desktop - non-english installation crashes" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611010
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1603898 in network-manager (Ubuntu Xenial) "DNS resolution fails when using VPN and routing all traffic over it" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1603898
<cyphermox> - shim extendedKeyUsage code
<cyphermox> - test & upload new shim
<cyphermox> - validate grub -> grub2 upgrade path
<cyphermox> (done)
<sil2100> Is mwhudson actually around at this time? ;)
<cyphermox> doubtful
<sil2100> Ok, so my turn
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM status meetings
<sil2100> - Touch xenial:
<sil2100>   * Reverted repowerd on xenial as well (which has now re-landed with fixes)
<sil2100>   * Reviewed libhybris arm64-fix branches, coordinating landing
<sil2100> - Experimenting with snappy and snaps
<sil2100> - Update touch seeds per management requests
<sil2100> - Staging a golang-1.6 forward-port from trusty with package rebuilds
<sil2100> - Various updates to landing-team-tools, cleanup
<sil2100> - Re-spinning snapshot-based OTA-12 emulator images + copying to stable
<sil2100> - Familiarizing with bileto code, proposing small bugfix for PPA descriptions
<sil2100> - zeromq3 update request:
<sil2100>   * Experimented with libzmq git snapshot package, refreshed patches
<sil2100>   * Prepped syncing zmqpp from upstream + the required patch from devel
<sil2100>   * Built test packages
<sil2100> - Looked into the general migration issues in yakkety for touch-based packages
<sil2100>   * Prepared chroot, tried parsing update_output, waiting for transitions to finish
<sil2100> (done)
<xnox> * merging all the things
<xnox> * Build atlas with zEC12 optimisations on s390x, and POWER8 timings on ppc64el (with coordination in Debian)
<xnox> * fix FTBFS dbus-cpp (gcc-6)
<xnox> * coordinate improved s390x support upstream in screenfetch, upload to yakkety
<xnox> * oprofile SRU to xenial for goldmont & z13 support
<xnox> * openssl SRU to xenial in the unapproved queue
<xnox> * zua - implement whitelist builds only
<xnox> *  s390x bugproxy wants new kernels, but apw is on holiday =)
<xnox> ..
<doko> they are working on the kernel, I'm told ...
<infinity>  * glibc 2.24 work, still sorting out some locale issues
<infinity>  * a bit of kernel SRU help
<infinity> (done)
<xnox> well, i'm not building a kernel on a debie's laptop and giving IBM to take that for a spin on their mainframes ;-)
<infinity> xnox: "new kernel" in what sense?
<xnox> infinity, 4.7 or 4.8
<bdmurray> modified mojo spec / charms to use swift for apport code storage
<bdmurray> investigation into RT 90399 daisy Traceback
<bdmurray> submitted test crashes to lift and shift ET (rt 90399)
<bdmurray> update daisy to stop accepting / retracing wily crashes
<bdmurray> submitted RT to have daisy updated in staging / production
<infinity> xnox: Well, 4.6 is landing soon.  4.7 will follow.
<bdmurray> uploaded update-manager HWE support wording changes
<bdmurray> wrote HWE support test case for testers
<bdmurray> research into / fixing of HWE support multi-arch issue
<bdmurray> uploaded update-manager HWE multi-arch fix
<bdmurray> reported bug 1611982 re missing packages in HWE X stack
<ubottu> bug 1611982 in xserver-xorg-video-ati-lts-xenial (Ubuntu Xenial) "HWE upgrade from vivid to xenial removes support for r128 and mach64" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611982
<bdmurray> updated update-notifier w/ hwe support for Trusty
<bdmurray> uploaded improved fix for LP: #1579834
<bdmurray> updated bug bot with 16.04.1 iso ident information
<bdmurray> uploaded u-r-u for X fixing LP: #1611909
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1579834 in apt-xapian-index (Ubuntu Xenial) "update-apt-xapian-index-dbus fails because of wrong import" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579834
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1611909 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Xenial) "xenial dist-upgrader using wrong demotions list" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611909
<bdmurray> â done
<slangasek> pitti is on vacation
<slangasek>  * slow week, taking me a long time to recover from cold
<slangasek>  * ubuntu-image spec finalization
<slangasek>  * console-conf design discussions
<slangasek>  * finishing a handful of merges before Feature Freeze
<slangasek>  * proposed-migration nudging
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - binutils 2.27
<doko> - got gnat-6 into the release pocket
<doko> - working on build failures, transitions ...
<doko> - look at gcc bugs, upstream, ...
<doko> - prepare GCC linaro builds
<doko> - look at "Killed" build failures, reduce parallelism during the build. not sure if that is the right way ...
<doko> - openjdk-9 update
<doko> (done)
<chiluk> - just opened lp#1612294 - not sure if anything can be done, but it's annoying.
<chiluk> - other than that, mostly working ceph cases as most of my team have been on vacation the last few weeks.
<chiluk> - Vacation Friday - Got Lasik
<chiluk> (done)
<barry> ubuntu-image: LP: #1605434 (more-parsing branch); gadget-yaml branch (WIP); prepare-image branch; sample-data branch
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1605434 in Ubuntu Image "testsuite calls 'snap weld' multiple times" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1605434
<barry> debuntu: python-coverage sponsorship; pyparsing 2.1.6+dfsg1-1; LP: #1611503; various other discussions; claws-mail merge from Debian before FF (WIP)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1611503 in python-pip (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU] python3-lxc breaks pip3 freeze in Xenial" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611503
<barry> --done--
<tdaitx> = OpenJDK security update
<tdaitx> - Fixed broken JamVM: 2 new native methods were introduced in sun.misc.Unsafe and had to be implemented in JamVM as well (LP: #1611598); a bug has been reported to both JamVM and IcedTea and fixes have been provided for review
<tdaitx> - OpenJDK 8 packages with JamVM seem to be broken as well but jtreg is not being run, working on that
<tdaitx> - Waiting for 8u102 backport to be approved on aarch64-port to update the source package
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1611598 in OpenJDK "jamvm is broken due to missing native methods in sun.misc.Unsafe" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611598
<tdaitx> - OpenJDK 7 builds still segfaults on Trusty on Arm64 (but it doe eventually passes); it used to be that building on trusty-security only segfaulted and trust-updates didn't, but now both have the same version; under investigation
<tdaitx> - Keeping an eye on errors report related to LP: #1609190
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1609190 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "/usr/lib/jvm/java-8-openjdk-armhf/jre/bin/java:6:BytecodeInterpreter::run:CppInterpreter::main_loop:CppInterpreter::normal_entry:ZeroEntry::invoke:Interpreter::invoke_method" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1609190
<tdaitx> = Other
<tdaitx> - Went through a few bug reports
<tdaitx> = AOB
<tdaitx> - landline+adsl installed and working at 50/6 Mbps, torrents ups and running (for ISOs I say); also got a new battery for my UPS (does anyone else calls it a "no-break" besides Brazilians?)
<tdaitx> (done)
<xnox> bug #1612294
<ubottu> bug 1612294 in systemd (Ubuntu) "Boot messages in /var/log/syslog are out of order and with mostly "useless" timestamp" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1612294
<doko> tdaitx, is this with pch enabled? if yes, please can you try to disable that?
<slangasek> chiluk: the timestamp is added by the syslog server, which systemd can only dump to once syslog is started
<slangasek> so systemd can either send this info or not, but not control the timestamp
<xnox> read journal?
<chiluk> slangasek: Yeah I'm aware.. doesn't mean I can't bitch about it .. or at least get it documented.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> any questions over status?
<infinity> Can't reasonably fix the timestamp thing, but the order is definitely a bug.
<chiluk> slangasek ... If there's ever a discussion about switching away from systemd.. this will just be one more bit of ammo.
<xnox> do we even have syslog by default? i thought we just use journal, and make that syslog.
<slangasek> chiluk: switching away from systemd to what? :)
 * chiluk misses upstart..
 * xnox systeme
<infinity> xnox: We definitely have syslog.
<slangasek> xnox: absolutely not.  we don't bury our logs in a non-standard binary db :)
<xnox> ok. I can't tell with my frankenstein machines =)
<infinity> slangasek: Of course it's a standard, Lennart declared it thus.
 * xnox ponders if we should make journal dump plaintext logs and rotate that.
<xnox> aka pg_dump for journald
<slangasek> orrr we could continue using the perfectly good syslog that we already have infrastructure for
<infinity> xnox: And that would be better than a standard syslog interface how?
<sil2100> Asking for the last time: anyone against me updating zeromq3 to the latest git snapshot? ;)
<infinity> sil2100: So, sorry, I'm only half awake.  You said this was for scopes people, which implies maybe phone work?
<infinity> sil2100: Which implies they'd want this in xenial?
<sil2100> infinity: yes, actually for ubuntu-personal
<infinity> sil2100: s/phone/unity8/ then.
<tdaitx> doko, thanks, I will check that
<sil2100> Since they need that to get things working for snappy
<sil2100> Yeah
<infinity> sil2100: If this is only for yakkety *and* a real upstream release is around the corner, then fine.  If this is for xenial, then hahahaha no.
<xnox> sil2100, snap zeromq3 ? =/
<infinity> Or tell people that relying on features in git isn't really the way forward?
<sil2100> I'm prepping it for yakkety right now, don't know anything about xenial - but who knows ;)
<sil2100> Anyway yeah, the new version will be out soonish I guess
<doko> sil2100, well, if all rdeps work with it ...
<xnox> wait they want to put zeromq3 on every client? isn't that a bit heavy weight?
<sil2100> No changes in symbols, just a few ones added
<infinity> xnox: It's not.
<infinity> xnox: It's quite little, in fact, which is the appeal.
<xnox> ok.
<infinity> xnox: Think of it like the sqlite of the MQ world.
<infinity> xnox: An MQ with no engine, just a library and a socket.
<slangasek> and incorrect case-insensitive matching behavior? :)
<infinity> slangasek: I'm not sure the sqlite analogy extends that far. ;)
<xnox> "like sqlite" ?! =)
<slangasek> xnox: he didn't say "like couchdb", so it must be ok
<infinity> (But it probably has similar failings... The size tradeoff is likely similarly worth it, though)
<infinity> So, since we seem to have devolved into AOB, despite a topic change...
<infinity> despite a lack of topic change.
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<infinity> Has anyone seen bizarre issues on Intel GPUs with an up-to-date yakkety?
<sil2100> I'll be on holidays on Monday
<infinity> Like, flickering, render tearing, world exploding spectacularly requiring a reboot...
<sil2100> I mean, one-day national holiday
 * xnox points out that Cold Water by Justin Bieber & Make me by Britney Spears are amazing songs
<tdaitx> doko, so, I do have your latest patches (from debian's 7u111-2.6.7-0ubuntu0.14.04.1 for arm64 pch) but the build is not using disable-precompiled-headers, I will retry it with that and see how it goes
 * sil2100 still didn't figure out when to take his holidays
<xnox> infinity, define bizarre?
<xnox> and desktop / mobile / ultramobile graphics?
<bdmurray> infinity: I've seen flickering
<xnox> flickering yes.
<infinity> xnox: Broadwell-U
<xnox> also disable / uninstall flash plugin
<cyphermox> secure boot magic win, yay.
<xnox> oh the worst of them all.
<cyphermox> ^ that was AOB ;)
<slangasek> "secure boot magic win"?
<xnox> I'm on skylake and it's ok. I don't think Broadwell-U was ever fixed.
<cyphermox> https://rol.im/securegoldenkeyboot/
<infinity> Alright, if everyone's seeing flickering, I at least know not to assume my laptop is dying.
<slangasek> the magic won? you won the magic?
<infinity> Now to figure out who to yell at.
<cyphermox> nah
<cyphermox> there was no magic
<cyphermox> and much less won.
<xnox> is that just ARM keys, or x86_64 keys too?
<slangasek> well, /we/ win, because now we can put Ubuntu on all the Windows ARM devices :)
<cyphermox> shrugs
<slangasek> xnox: ARM only
<cyphermox> I checked, it doesn't include any of our shim hashes
<xnox> cause if it is just ARM keys, then it's intentional leak to open up the platform, as microsoft todate refused / didn't sign anybody else for that.
<slangasek> uhm
<slangasek> conspiracy theory much? :)
<cyphermox> I wasn't under the impression this was only ARM though.
<infinity> slangasek: Have you met Dmitri?
<cyphermox> did the reptilian overlords already get him?
 * xnox saw new star trek, was very confused about lack of either aliens or predators
<barry> xnox: saw it in imax 3d the day it premiered.  still pretty awesome
<infinity> xnox: Pretty sure Kirk is a predator.
<barry> infinity: only the shatnerkirk
<barry> aoaob?
<infinity> barry: Nah, the new Kirk is too.  They set that up in the very first movie.
<bdmurray> he was even hiding under a bed in that one
<barry> shatner would have never hid under a bed
<barry> s/would/could/
<infinity> That's because Shatner's Kirk lived in a 60s sci-fi world where beds were either welded to the ground or floating 4 feet in the air.
<cyphermox> heh. I still have total respect for McCoy, who had the worst job of them all
<infinity> cyphermox: McCoy worked on Secure Boot?
<cyphermox> no, he cured Kirk's STDs.
<infinity> Similar.
<cyphermox> that's still a little bit above working on Secure Boot ;)
<barry> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pNQYHvhnms
<barry> the 60s were so awesome
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug 11 15:38:22 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-08-11-15.03.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
<barry> slangasek is so herbert
<barry> :)
<barry> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-08-07
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Aug  7 16:30:50 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<meetingology`> Meeting started Mon Aug  7 16:30:50 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology`> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
 * sbeattie waves
<chrisccoulson> o/
<leosilva> o/
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> heh, zero meeting bots last week and two meeting bots this week
<mdeslaur> oooh! bot fight!
<tyhicks> James Lu (tacocat) provided debdiffs for xenial-zesty for gnome-exe-thumbnailer (LP: #651610)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 651610 in gnome-exe-thumbnailer (Ubuntu) "[CVE-2017-11421] Version number for .msi thumbnail is obtained from unreliable source" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/651610
<tyhicks> Simon Quigley (tsimonq2) provided debdiffs for trusty-xenial for lxterminal (LP: #1690416)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1690416 in lxterminal (Ubuntu Artful) "[CVE] socket can be blocked by another user" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1690416
<tyhicks> Simon Quigley (tsimonq2) provided debdiffs for trusty-zesty for pcmanfm (LP: #1708542)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1708542 in pcmanfm (Ubuntu Zesty) "Fix potential access violation, use runtime user dir instead of tmp dir" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1708542
<tyhicks> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen (otto) provided debdiffs for trusty for mariadb-5.5 (LP: #1705944)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1705944 in mariadb-5.5 (Ubuntu) "USN-3357-1: partially applies to MariaDB too" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1705944
<tyhicks> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen (otto) provided debdiffs for xenial for mariadb-10.0 (LP: #1698689)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1698689 in mariadb-10.1 (Ubuntu Artful) "USN-3269-1: partially applies to MariaDB too" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1698689
<tyhicks> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen (otto) provided debdiffs for zesty for mariadb-10.1 (LP: #1698689)
<tyhicks> Roger Light (ral) provided debdiffs for trusty-zesty for mosquitto (LP: #1700490)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1700490 in mosquitto (Ubuntu) "Persistence file is world readable" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1700490
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> Last week I focused a lot on interface reviews (broadcom-asic-control, udev tagging,kvm, spi, avahi reimplementation. I also coordinated with the Desktop team wrt snaps on 17.10 desktop. I triaged the snapd-interface bugs and picked up the wayland work a bit.
<jdstrand> This week I plan to:
<jdstrand> - finish going through the wayland interface (this has required quite a bit of investigation wrt interactions with snapd's setting of XDG_RUNTIME_DIR
<jdstrand> - be responsive to various snappy PRs and feature discussions (eg, udev tagging, avahi, snapd user/groups, portals, etc)
<jdstrand> - perform several PRs against snapd 2.27 for recent PRs that need to be in the next release
<jdstrand> - pickup new 'desktop' interface for gnome-shell, plasma and sway as have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> and I have a couple of updates to publish
<mdeslaur> and after down, down the list, as usual
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I have a couple of kernel USNs to publish this morning
<sbeattie> I have an embargoed issue on my plate
<sbeattie> I'm stll waiting on openjdk-7 from td aitx, but might have that to publish this week
<sbeattie> I'll  look at picking up other updates as well
<tsimonq2> tyhicks: :D
<sbeattie> I also have some apparmor bits and qrt bits to poke at.
<sbeattie> that's it for me. tyhicks, over to you...
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I will finish making changes to seccomp v6 kernel patch set, test, and submit upstream
<tyhicks> need to do fscrypt pam module review and packaging
<tyhicks> still need to familiarize myself with the latest LSM stacking patch set
<tyhicks> I also still need to review jdstrand's snapd users/groups writeup
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I am still working on upstreaming apparmor, specifically the type splitting needed to fixed the stored path issue in our unix domain sockets.
<jjohansen> I will be doing some more testing of the LSM stacking kernel, and getting my feedback to Casey
<jjohansen> I have some Ralley prep to take care of this week.
<jjohansen> and if there is time some misc apparmor test suite issues to poke at
<jdstrand> tyhicks: fyi, niemeyer ack'd that the users/groups write-up is accurate which I think is a precursor to his full review/comment
<jjohansen> thats it for me sarnold you're up
<sarnold> I'm on community this week; also setting up rally travel, and working down the MIRs. Maybe review a patch or two from jjohansen if he think it'd be helpful.
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I've got firefox and chromium updates this week
<jjohansen> sarnold: oh yes
<chrisccoulson> I'm also in the process of updating rust to 1.19, but I've got an issue with 1.18 first. I imagine this will take up most of my week
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week
<ratliff> I will be focusing on KPIs for the foreseeable future
<ratliff> leosilva: you are up
<leosilva> I worked in a couple of update/finished the publishment today morning
<leosilva> this week I'm bug triage and also finish triage hope to get some updates too
<leosilva> that's it for me
<leosilva> tyhicks: it's back to you
<leosilva> duh, I mean, soon finish triage*
 * tyhicks is catching up
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/unrar-nonfree.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/yaml-cpp.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/qpid-proton.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/freeciv.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/inspircd.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<sarnold> probably it's worth adding http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/varnish.html to that list, four or so community folks filed bugs but I don't recall seeing any debdiffs http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/varnish.html
<tyhicks> good thought
<tyhicks> I think varnish updates would be more useful than any of the ones I listed
<tsimonq2> I can provide debdiffs within the next hour if someone can help me test them.
<tsimonq2> Because it's a Universe package right?
<tsimonq2> (yes, answered my own question)
<tyhicks> tsimonq2: you could post debdiffs, sarnold could sponsor them to the ubuntu-security-proposed PPA, and then we could ask for testing in the bug
<tsimonq2> tyhicks: Works for me.
<tyhicks> tsimonq2: thanks!
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: thank you!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Aug  7 16:51:50 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-08-07-16.30.moin.txt
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology`> Meeting ended Mon Aug  7 16:51:50 2017 UTC.
<meetingology`> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-08-07-16.30.moin.txt
<tsimonq2> tyhicks: np, let's follow up in #ubuntu-hardened :)
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<jdstrand> thanks tyhicks :)
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<leosilva> thanks tyhicks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-08-08
<slashd> o/
<dpb1> o/
<blackboxsw> \o
<smb> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<ahasenack> o/
<ahasenack> sory
<rharper> o/
<dpb1> this meeting room is getting a bit crowded.
<rharper> oh, I can step out
<blackboxsw> ... the advent of IRCv6
<nacc> o/
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Sorry I'm late.
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Aug  8 16:09:26 2017 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<meetingology`> Meeting started Tue Aug  8 16:09:26 2017 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology`> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rbasak> * nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<rbasak> * nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<rbasak> * rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<nacc> rbasak: please carry over
<rbasak> Mine needs carrying over too :-/
<rbasak> #action nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<meetingology`> ACTION: nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<rbasak> #action nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<meetingology`> ACTION: nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<rbasak> #action rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<meetingology`> ACTION: rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<rbasak> #topic Artful Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Artful Development
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Artful Development
<rbasak> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseSchedule
<rbasak> #subtopic Current Work
<rbasak> #link https://trello.com/b/U9HhWyT0/daily-ubuntu-server
<rbasak> Anything to discuss on current work?
<nacc> nothing other than upcoming FF
<nacc> check your merges!
<rbasak> If someone would like to take my squid3 merge, please do.
<rbasak> #subtopic Release Bugs
<rbasak> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<rbasak> Anything from this list that needs discussing?
<cpaelzer> the qemu one will be addressed by upcoming merge
<cpaelzer> jamespage is aware
<ahasenack> the python django merge,
<ahasenack> is it pending on something from maas? A +1?
<nacc> ahasenack: hrm? the python django merge has been uploaded
<ahasenack> shouldn't it be fix released then?
<nacc> i just need to update it, i guess
<ahasenack> is it in the release pocket, or still -proposed?
<nacc> ahasenack: no, 1.11 is still in -proposed
<ahasenack> ok, then committed is right
<ahasenack> and I see a comment from maas in that bug
<nacc> right, but the reason it's in a-p is a regression in the dep8 tests
<ahasenack> is that why django is in proposed still? And maybe openstack's horizon?
<ahasenack> ah, ok
<ahasenack> so we have work to do there still
<ahasenack> do we need to reopen the bug? Or file a new one?
<rbasak> Does someone want to take an action to sort out the django situation please?
<nacc> rbasak: i'm doing it/have been doing it
<nacc> ahasenack: no, that's not needed
<rbasak> Thanks!
<rbasak> I guess no action needed then.
<ahasenack> ok
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
<rbasak> slashd, ddstreet: o/
<slashd> Business as usual... Here's what we are working on at the moment -> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/25270564/
<slashd> There is a CUPS bug fix everywhere but Xenial (it fails for Xenial) that seems to be causing some headaches (LP: #1642966).
<slashd> I haven't read the whole details yet, but I was wondering if someone has some cycle to look at this bug before I have some cycle myself ? It is blocking any future CUPS Xenial SRU to happen.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1642966 in cups (Ubuntu Xenial) "package cups-daemon 2.1.3-4 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess new pre-removal script returned error exit status 1" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1642966
<ahasenack> systemd related?
<slashd> ahasenack, seems like it
<ahasenack> ugh
<ahasenack> that bug has 107 comments (!)
<slashd> xnox had an idea on how to fix it, but he is also running out of time
<slashd> last time I talked to him 2 weeks ago -ish
<ahasenack> the ladnscape-client one is just needing verification?
<slashd> ahasenack, it is currently building in -proposed, yes need verification + additional packaging QA stuff
<slashd> testing
<ahasenack> ok
<slashd> ahasenack, amorphous and davecore will perform the testing
<ahasenack> cool
<rbasak> Shall we move on?
<slashd> yes
<rbasak> Thanks slashd!
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<rbasak> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<ahasenack> he is away this week
<blackboxsw> powersj is at debconf today
<rbasak> #info powersj is at debconf today
<rbasak> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<rbasak> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<rbasak> #link http://www.open-zfs.org/wiki/OpenZFS_Developer_Summit
<rbasak> #link https://discuss.linuxcontainers.org/t/containers-micro-conference-at-linux-plumbers-2017/262
<ahasenack> let me check if these are still open
<ahasenack> zfs is
<ahasenack> deadline is sep 4th
<ahasenack> the containers one can be removed perhaps
<ahasenack> its cfp ended august 4th
<rbasak> Thanks!
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<rbasak> I missed that topic I think
<smb> ah ok .... No news I can think of. Are there questions?
<rbasak> #info No notable news.
<rbasak> Thanks smb!
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<rbasak> Anything coming up?
<cpaelzer> rbasak: no notable kernel news for the info tag
<rbasak> #info Nothing notable coming up.
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<doko> rbasak: please address the outstanding component mismatches (might be server or openstack responsibility)
<rbasak> doko: I believe that'll be the openstack team.
<rbasak> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/KnowledgeBase#Merge_Proposals_and_Reviewing
<blackboxsw> cloud-init has an SRU queued for xenial/zesty that will hopefully get queued this week for validation https://trello.com/c/CAjwe8LX/273-cloud-init-sru-zesty-xenial
<cpaelzer> the MIrs I know are
<doko> please make sure that the openstack team doesn't believe otherwise ;p
<dpb1> I'll pass along the message doko
<doko> ta
<rbasak> Is the above link current for this meeting?
<blackboxsw> meh, it's broad/general information rbasak not sure if it applies
<rbasak> #info cloud-init has an SRU queued for xenial/zesty that will hopefully get queued this week for validation
<blackboxsw> it can if we include cloud-init ongoings in this meeting
<ahasenack> rbasak: I added it
<rbasak> blackboxsw: sorry, I meant the Merge_Proposals_and_Reviewing link
<xnox> slashd, i'm away this wook at Debconf
<xnox> slashd, i'm away this week at Debconf
<rbasak> Anything else for open discussion?
<ahasenack> just to mention that we are experimenting with package reviews and following that documentation
<ahasenack> s/documentation/procedure/
<rbasak> #info We are experimenting with package reviews - see link
<ahasenack> thx
<rbasak> Thanks ahasenack!
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<rbasak> Next chair will be dpb I think?
<rbasak> #info Next meeting Tuesday, 2017-08-15, chair will be dpb.
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology`> Meeting ended Tue Aug  8 16:28:49 2017 UTC.
<meetingology`> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-08-08-16.09.moin.txt
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Aug  8 16:28:49 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-08-08-16.09.moin.txt
<cpaelzer> thanks rbasak
<ahasenack> thx rbasak
<rbasak> np. Sorry I was late.
<blackboxsw> thanks rbasak
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-08-10
<tdaitx> o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug 10 15:03:41 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology`> Meeting started Thu Aug 10 15:03:41 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology`> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<sil2100> o/
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther)
<slangasek> rcj fginther slangasek Odd_Bloke infinity rbalint philroche tribaal mwhudson xnox doko tdaitx bdmurray sil2100 cyphermox
<sil2100> Phew, good that I'm almost last as I'm not ready
<slangasek> rcj: hi
<rcj> * cloud-image automated build work (getting closer)
<rcj> * cloud image partner-related work
<rcj> (done)
<fginther> * HIGHLIGHT: Released updated images with fix for CVE-2017-7533
<fginther> * Added flake8 testing and fixes to the main build tools project
<fginther> * WA Linux Agent 2.2.14 is now available in released Azure images for trusty, xenial and zesty.
<fginther> * Minor fixes to the Automated image publication workflow
<ubottu> Race condition in the fsnotify implementation in the Linux kernel through 4.12.4 allows local users to gain privileges or cause a denial of service (memory corruption) via a crafted application that leverages simultaneous execution of the inotify_handle_event and vfs_rename functions. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2017-7533)
<fginther> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> slangasek:
<slangasek>  * worked through the perl+gcc megatransition, which migrated last night
<slangasek>  * discussions around policy for archive-equivalent snaps
<slangasek>  * discussions around advanced networking in clouds with netplan
<slangasek>  * discussions around open-iscsi root shutdown
<slangasek> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> * Continued work on GCE publication rework
<Odd_Bloke> * HIGHLIGHT: Released https://github.com/OddBloke/jenkins-job-linter to lint jenkins-job-builder output
<Odd_Bloke> * cloud-image automated promotion work
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> inetpro:
<Odd_Bloke> NOPE
<slangasek> no infinity here
<slangasek> rbalint @ DebConf
<slangasek> phunyguy:
<slangasek> noe
<slangasek> philroche:
<philroche> - cloud-image automated build work
<philroche> (done)
<slangasek> Tribaal:
<Tribaal> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/ikXC29PP/
<Tribaal> damn
<Tribaal> * Back from vacation! Catching up
<Tribaal> * Upcoming exciting vagrant image work
<Tribaal> * Upcoming bloggy bloggy writing :)
<Tribaal> (done)
<slangasek> xnox at DebConf
<slangasek> doko at DebConf
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * grabbed hotspot patches from IcedTea pre-release over the weekend
<tdaitx> - comparing with my changes to see what I was missing
<tdaitx> - some hotspot tests still failed, eventually tracked it down to a missing backport in the pre-release
<tdaitx> * IcedTea 2.6.11 released Tue night
<tdaitx> - merging debian and trusty changes + upgrading to 2.6.11
<tdaitx> - waiting for build to finish to check test reports in buildlog
<doko> - gsl transition
<tdaitx> * finished OpenJDK 8u141 + aarch32, now builds on all releases
<doko> - more binutils/gcc-7 work (7.2 release candidate)
<doko> - at DebConf ...
<tdaitx> * investigating OpenJDK 8u131 regression
<doko> (done)
<tdaitx> - now some reports in errors.u.c include the HotspotError file
<tdaitx> * AOB
<tdaitx> - travel arrangements
<tdaitx> (done)
<doko> - gsl transition
<doko> - more binutils/gcc-7 work (7.2 release candidate)
<doko> - at DebConf ...
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> short week with some holidays
<bdmurray> arranged travel to Ubuntu Rally
<bdmurray> review of halted phased upates
<bdmurray> sru-review of cloud-init
<bdmurray> foundations bug triage
<bdmurray> resolved update-manager test failures (pep8, pyflakes, real test issues)
<bdmurray> resolved update-manager test failures on armhf, s390x, and ppc64el
<bdmurray> searched for zesty, artful incidents of LP: #1428297 (marked some duplicates)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1428297 in update-manager (Ubuntu Xenial) "update-manager crashed with OSError in _get_application_for_package(): [Errno 5] Eingabe-/Ausgabefehler" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1428297
<bdmurray> replied to email regarding gnome-software halted phased-update
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> sil2100:
<sil2100> - SRU reviews
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * Branch reviews
<sil2100>   * Re-releasing 1.1, testing packages for SRU
<sil2100>   * Various planning and investigating
<sil2100> - Sent out DMB nomination reminder
<sil2100> - Booking flights for NYC
<sil2100> - Approving OpenStack MRE
<sil2100> - Filling RTs for broken grafana access, lots of annoyance
<sil2100> - Some +1 maint
<sil2100> - Working on some secret fixes
<sil2100> (done)
<cyphermox> - upstream shim work on MokManager
<sil2100> Oh, and I'm gone next week for 2 weeks
<cyphermox> - mergeing console-setup to unblock ubiquity
<cyphermox> - reviewed more slideshow
<cyphermox> - netplan work on bond features
<cyphermox> (done)
<slangasek> any questions?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] incoming bugs
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: incoming bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1477455 looks new to me
<ubottu> bug 1477455 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Incorrect instructions leave automatic updates blocked" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1477455
<slangasek> bdmurray: I wasn't sure we wanted to commit on that one
<bdmurray> slangasek: okay, then lets leave it with the tag
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> the rest are medium and lower, so move on?
<bdmurray> the aptdaemon one is high
<bdmurray> bug 1689668
<ubottu> bug 1689668 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Artful) "dialog to resolve config file conflicts can be only one line high" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1689668
<slangasek> oh yes
<bdmurray> were you going to look at one of those aptdaemon bugs?
<slangasek> "one of"?
<bdmurray> iirc there are multiple spots in the code where the dialog size did not get modified
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> I don't know that I'll get around to looking at it soon
<slangasek> but I think we should take this one onto the queue
<bdmurray> oh, its in tracking bug still has the tag
<slangasek> oh ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug 10 15:20:23 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-08-10-15.03.moin.txt
* meetingology` changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology`> Meeting ended Thu Aug 10 15:20:23 2017 UTC.
<meetingology`> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-08-10-15.03.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<sil2100> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-08-06
<mdeslaur> \o
<ratliff> \o/
<jdstrand> hi!
<ratliff> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Aug  6 16:31:08 2018 UTC.  The chair is ratliff. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<leosilva> o/
<ratliff> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<ratliff> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<ratliff> We have no new announcements this week.
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<ratliff> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> This week I plan to work on:
<jdstrand> - finishing the socketcall() deprecation in snapd
<jdstrand> - brand store snap declarations
<jdstrand> - various snapd PR reviews
<jdstrand> - kubernetes-support interfaces
<jdstrand> - embargoed issue
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I'm travelling all week, I'll be back next tuesday
<mdeslaur> I'm doing some travel preparations today and re-spinning some embargoed packages
<mdeslaur> that's about it
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on bug triage this week
<sbeattie> I have some kernel triage and signoffs to do.
<sbeattie> I also have intel-microcode updates sitting in the security-proposed ppa to be tested and published.
<sbeattie> I have an embargoed issue pending.
<sbeattie> And I have a mountain of email to go through now that I'm back from vacation.
<sbeattie> That's the highlights for me; jjohansen, you're up.
<ratliff> I'll go ahead and we can circle back around to jjohansen in a bit.
<jjohansen> need to look into 1783922 and report regression around bind mounts on 4.18
<ratliff> I'm on CVE triage this week.
<ratliff> I'm working on an embargoed issue, internal work.
<ratliff> I also plan to publish information about our CVE assignments to MITRE this week (via github).
<ratliff> oops, jjohansen go ahead, sorry to interrupt
<jjohansen> not at all
<jjohansen> I need to look into 1783922 and report regression around bind mounts on 4.18
<jjohansen> then I need to look into the latest revisions in dhowell's mount rework around apparmor
<jjohansen> and I really need to try and get to mjgs secmark patch for apparmor, I expect that will take the rest of the week and then some
<jjohansen> if I have time after those I will go back to the work needed to finish getting apparmor 3.0 out the door
<jjohansen> the largest item remaining is dealing with the differences between 2 feature abi sets (kernel and policy)
<jjohansen> thats it for me, sarnold you are up
<ratliff> I think that sarnold is travelling today
<jjohansen> oh right, debconf
<ratliff> leosilva: you are up
<leosilva> I'm in the happy place
<leosilva> I finished some min ago the libxcursor usn and will follow to the next lftp
<leosilva> other than that I'm hunting
<leosilva> msalvatore: you're up
<msalvatore> I'm in the happy place this week.
<msalvatore> I spent last week working through improvements/additions to some internal tooling.
<msalvatore> This week I'm focusing on performing security updates to some packages in universe.
<msalvatore> that's it for me. ebarretto, you're up.
<ebarretto> I'm in the happy place this week:
<ebarretto> - I'm working on libtomcrypt update ... planning on releasing it today.
<ebarretto> - next packages to be updated still to be decided.
<ebarretto> - if you find any issues on the updated packages, please let us know asap, thanks!
<ebarretto> - and thank you all that reported issues on jansson last week!
<ebarretto> ratliff, back to you
<ratliff> thank you!
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<ratliff> The Ubuntu Security team suggests that contributors look into merging Debian security updates in community-supported packages. If you would like to help Ubuntu but are not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<ratliff> See http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/ for available merges and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details on preparing Ubuntu security updates. If you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-hardened. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<ratliff> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<ratliff> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<ratliff> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, leosilva, msalvatore, ebarretto: Thanks!
<ratliff> #endmeeting
<jjohansen> thanks ratliff
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Aug  6 16:48:29 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-08-06-16.31.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks ratliff!
<leosilva> thanks ratliff!
<sbeattie> ratliff: thanks!
<ebarretto> thanks ratliff
<jdstrand> thanks ratliff :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-08-09
<tdaitx> brb
 * slangasek waves
<juliank> o/
<rcj> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  9 15:01:46 2018 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<sil2100> o/
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke juliank fginther)
<slangasek> juliank cyphermox philroche Odd_Bloke slangasek sil2100 rcj mwhudson fginther xnox bdmurray rbalint tdaitx infinity doko
<slangasek> juliank: hello!
<juliank> * new amd64-microcode for trusty with the MODULES=most change for bug 1778738
<ubottu> bug 1778738 in amd64-microcode (Ubuntu Trusty) "Default to early instead of auto when MODULES=most" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1778738
<juliank> * ubuntu-release-upgrader update for bug 1766890
<ubottu> bug 1766890 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Bionic) "package gnome-menus 3.13.3-6ubuntu3.1 failed to install/upgrade: triggers looping, abandoned" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1766890
<juliank> * frontend locking for dpkg, apt, python-apt, packagekit, (maybe) aptdaemon - bugs to be filed later for SRUs
<juliank> * just landed monday morning, back from debconf in taiwan
<juliank> * ton of interesting stuff there
<juliank> (done)
<slangasek> cyphermox is out
<slangasek> philroche:
<philroche> * Cloud image build system Vanguard
<philroche> * Cloud image publication to address CVE 2018-5390
<philroche> * Cloud image modifications
<philroche> * Set up external thunderbolt graphics card enclosure
<philroche> (done)
<ubottu> Linux kernel versions 4.9+ can be forced to make very expensive calls to tcp_collapse_ofo_queue() and tcp_prune_ofo_queue() for every incoming packet which can lead to a denial of service. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2018-5390)
<philroche> Odd_Bloke:
<Odd_Bloke> * Slipped a disc in my back last week, so working part-time (and lying on the floor the rest of the time)
<Odd_Bloke> * Mostly keeping on top of email etc. in the time I am working
<Odd_Bloke> * Some small partner-facing issues addressed
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> slangasek:
<slangasek>  * short week; was out sick yesterday, and only at half capacity today
<slangasek>  * streams
<slangasek>  * nvidia in clouds
<slangasek>  * various discussions around SRU policies
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> sil2100:
<sil2100> - Warmest week ever, melting
<sil2100> - Some SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * Merged final fixes from Michael re: new gadget stanza
<sil2100>   * Tested and released 1.4 to cosmic, pushed SRUs to bionic and xenial
<sil2100>   * Fixed snap builds and uploads, released 1.4 to stable
<sil2100>   * Poked webops to fix authorization failures on ubuntu-image CI
<sil2100> - New stable kernel cycle reviews
<sil2100> - core18:
<sil2100>   * Tested subiquity trunk on core18 - console-conf busted
<sil2100>   * Cherry-picked branding fixes to console-conf, added our PPA to be used durin
<sil2100> g core preparation to pull in new subiquity
<sil2100>   * Investigated core18 netplan configuration issues on the pi3
<sil2100> - Pushed first cosmic base langpacks, made sure weekly builds are up
<sil2100> - Rebuilt ubuntu-core 16.04.5 image and sent to Chris for testing - all green
<sil2100> - Worked on getting firewalls unblocked for security-britney
<sil2100> - Did I mention it's too warm?
<sil2100> (done)
<rcj> rcj:
<rcj> * CVE image publication in AWS GovCloud
<rcj> * Fixups for remote query/stream generation
<rcj> * Cloud partner meetings
<rcj> * miscellany
<rcj> (done)
<fginther> * Image build and publication for CVE-2018-5390
<fginther> * Debug and fix a partner image build issue
<fginther> * Debugging provisioning issue on a partner cloud via email
<fginther> * Investigated a partner image size alignment issue
<ubottu> Linux kernel versions 4.9+ can be forced to make very expensive calls to tcp_collapse_ofo_queue() and tcp_prune_ofo_queue() for every incoming packet which can lead to a denial of service. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2018-5390)
<fginther> * Updated documentation for image publication on a partner cloud
<fginther> * Created a new image build
<fginther> * Finshed MP for a cloud-init change to allow ssh redirect of non-root users (LP: #1771198)
<fginther> * Purgued old EOL images from a partner cloud
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1771198 in cloud-init "Support disable_root-esque behaviour for other users" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1771198
<fginther> â done
<slangasek> xnox is out
<slangasek> bdmurray's calendar says he's out but he just can't stay away from these meetings
<bdmurray> I came back early so I'm here.
<bdmurray> short week due to holidays but
<bdmurray> SRU review of libreoffice with trigger-noawait change for xenial
<bdmurray> SRU verification / testing of apport bugs LP: #1778694, LP: #1778497
<bdmurray> SRU verification of LP: #1783589, 1783593, 1783738, 1785096
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1778694 in apport (Ubuntu Bionic) "In autoreport mode in whoopsie-preferences API, reports are not sent by whoopsie" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1778694
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1778497 in apport (Ubuntu Bionic) "Add a remember option to whoopsie so that users can diminish crash interactions" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1778497
<bdmurray> â done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1783738 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Bionic) "_checkStoreConnectivity uses translatable strings for error checking " [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1783738
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1785096 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Bionic) "dist-upgrader should clean up downloaded debs" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1785096
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1783589 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Bionic) "ubuntu-release-upgrader crashes if snapd is not installed" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1783589
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1783593 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Bionic) "UI frozen and no information when the upgrader is installing snap packages" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1783593
<bdmurray> rbalint:
<tdaitx> rbalint he said he would be late
<slangasek> tdaitx: go ahead
<tdaitx> s/he//
<tdaitx> * packaged and uploaded openjdk-10 (bionic) to the security team ppa
<tdaitx>   - enabled tests during build and included new testsuites
<tdaitx>   - workaround for a testng issue (LP: #1785896)
<tdaitx>   - fixed debug symbols stripping to prevent inclusion on modules
<tdaitx> * testing "outdated" java packages in bionic for sru candidates
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1785896 in testng (Ubuntu) "testng fails due to missing guava dependency" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1785896
<tdaitx>   - scilab (LP: #1762999), access-modifier-checker, activemq, annotation-indexer, ant, antlr4, apache-directory-server, apache-log4j2, axis, batik (ongoing)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1762999 in scilab (Ubuntu) "Unable to start Scilab 6.0.1 on bionic and cosmic because of missed Java" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1762999
<tdaitx> AOB:
<tdaitx> - will be out Tuesdays/Thursdays after lunch time for the next 2 weeks, might have to leave Thursday team meeting 20-30 min earlier
<tdaitx> (done)
<slangasek> no infinity
<slangasek> doko is out
<slangasek> rbalint: we'll catch you when you get here
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: anything for this week?
<bdmurray> bug 1785080 showed up recently
<ubottu> bug 1785080 in pylint (Ubuntu) "pylint does not work with Python 3.7" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1785080
<bdmurray> I haven't tested it recently
<slangasek> seems important to have resolved.  do you want to create a card for that?
<bdmurray> slangasek: yeah, is anybody working on the transition?
<slangasek> bdmurray: I believe mwhudson is, about half time
<bdmurray> Okay, I'll let him know.
<bdmurray> That's it from me.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else today?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  9 15:16:35 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-08-09-15.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<sil2100> o/
<mwhudson> oh yeah, the python transition
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-08-06
<bittin> Anyone has logs of tonights Ubuntu Desktop meeting?
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-08-08
<rbalint> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<waveform> o/
<sil2100> o/
<xnox> \o
<rbalint> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  8 15:03:07 2019 UTC.  The chair is rbalint. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<rbalint> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<rbalint> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx sil2100 rbalint cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<rbalint> sil2100 mwhudson juliank bdmurray waveform cyphermox tdaitx xnox vorlon rbalint
<sil2100> Oh no
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - A few quick kernel reviews
<sil2100> - 18.04.3:
<sil2100>   * Preparing and formatting the changelog
<sil2100>   * Poking people for testing
<sil2100>   * Fixing download urls for netboot images on the isotracker
<sil2100>   * Spinning ubuntu-core 16 and 18 images, iterating on testing
<sil2100>   * Linked core release process wiki to the PointReleaseProcess
<sil2100> - Moved libpwquality in l-o-m from gnome to the common langpack packages
<sil2100> - NEW review of ibus-avro
<sil2100> - disk-space-estimate for snaps: change ready, finishing writing basic tests
<sil2100> - Proposed an MP for livecd-rootfs to add the system-boot NoCloud datasource for all ubuntu-image images
<sil2100> - Investigating reports of slow pi bootup time - we might want to consider backporting livecd-rootfs changes to bionic
<sil2100> (done)
<sil2100> (and I'm out the next 2 weeks)
 * sil2100 pokes juliank 
 * juliank is poked
<juliank> but desktop buggy
<juliank>  * Hack around broken procenv in eoan breaking sbuild and pbuilder autopkgtest everywhere
<juliank>  * hotfix python-apt so snapd builds in eoan (LP: #1837926), needs a cleaner fix, but that needs work in bindings
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1837926 in snapd (Ubuntu Eoan) "snapd snap ftbfs in eoan due to python-apt regression" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1837926
<juliank>  * Released apt  1.9.2
<juliank>  * Verify dpkg SRUs
<juliank>  * Answered questions about which apt binary packages need upgrading needed for trusty ESM
<juliank>  * Some initial analysis and workarounds in autopkgtest for the i386 autopkgtest queue being stuck, which turned out to be a gnutls bug (LP: #1839354)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1839354 in gnutls28 (Ubuntu) "gnutls28 requires write and executable bits" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1839354
<juliank> (done)
<waveform> * Worked on pi4 kernel patches; got a cleanly building tree under armhf (currently building arm64) which works on pi3 but not pi4 yet, still stripping out irrelevant patches
<waveform> * Further testing on pi4-compatible u-boot; found it's semi-compatible across pi versions but we *may* still need conditional boot sections
<waveform> * Built patches for u-boot postinst & pi gadget to handle conditional boot sections
<waveform> * Investigating boot issue on arm64 pi images (appears to be kernel framebuffer)
<waveform> (done)
<cyphermox> I'll be off tomorrow, and Monday-Tuesday next week
<cyphermox> libuv1 shepherding from -proposed: uploaded new nodejs with upstream fix
<cyphermox> Rerunning various node-* autopkgtests
<cyphermox> Writing the OpenVSwitch support spec for netplan
<cyphermox> trying to get review for the NM plugin spec for netplan
<cyphermox> Looked into no-writable-files-in-/etc for UC20
<cyphermox> shim update: didn't get reviewed get, will do a new snapshot
<cyphermox> preparing netplan release with the recently merged PRs
<cyphermox> ð
<xnox> tdaitx not in the channel?
<xnox> * sprint last week
<xnox> * prepared openvpn-server update for trusty / esm / #is
<xnox> * prepared initrd updates for microcode handling on core16/18
<xnox> * patches to linux-snap to use the right microcode packages
<xnox> * expenses / notes / post-sprint jetlag (more to do)
<xnox> * core20 snap, it build! it boots! console-conf fails!
<xnox> * fixing console-conf... as it was not touched for like 2+ years
<xnox> * lots of s390x tickets to work on
<xnox> * attempt to unbreak unattended-upgrades pyflakes adt regression
<xnox> * refreshed ubiquity
<xnox> * new upstream release of s390-tools
<xnox> done...
<xnox> vorlon:
<vorlon>  * worked with juliank and mwhudson to fix a gnutls28 bug on i386 that was breaking autopkgtests (LP: #1839354)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1839354 in gnutls28 (Ubuntu) "gnutls28 requires write and executable bits" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1839354
<vorlon>  * proposed-migration curling
<vorlon>  * preparation for kicking off public i386 discussion
<vorlon>  * reviews of netplan PRs
<vorlon>  * off tomorrow
<vorlon> (done)
<rbalint> * uploaded wslu 2.3.0
<rbalint> * reopened MIR for libnftnl
<rbalint> * verified and announced new WSL tarballs
<rbalint> * uploaded unattended-upgrades 1.14 fixing a few recent issues
<rbalint> * merged systemd 242-rc1, poking it to migrate
<rbalint> * other proposed migration work
<rbalint> (done)
<rbalint> any questions?
<cyphermox> rbalint: fwiw, libnftnl approved.
<cyphermox> (it had already been MIRed, etc. etc.)
<rbalint> cyphermox, thanks!
<cyphermox> rbalint: carry on I guess :)
<gaughen> what is that picture cyphermox ?
<cyphermox> what picture?
<rbalint> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<gaughen> ð
<rbalint> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ee-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<cyphermox> gaughen: a mahjong tile
<gaughen> aaaah
<gaughen> I couldn't tell
<sil2100> It's a red dragon I guess?
<gaughen> I put glasses on to try and see if that would help
<gaughen> I thought it was a bow/arrow
<gaughen> and he was indicating doneness by shooting an arrow at the next person
<rbalint> hmm, no high or unclassified there.
<rbalint> Bionic does not have new bugs either
<sil2100> rbalint: guess we can move on then
<rbalint> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<rbalint> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<rbalint> imagemagick is blocked on libheif mir
<rbalint> i fixed unattended-upgrades regression for debconf
<vorlon> rbalint: are you retrying the tests against new unattended-upgrades in -proposed?
<rbalint> vorlon, yep
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> xnox: btrfs-progs still blocked on curtin, and your comment to me on IRC did not give me clarity
<rbalint> prometheus-blackbox-exporter is still sad, and i faced 404 in other tests from ftpmaster.internal
<rbalint> i think there is something with ftpmaster.internal
<vorlon> xnox: are you reverting this btrfs-progs change again, or are you teaching the curtin maintainers about or'ed dependencies?
<vorlon> rbalint: if that's only on i386, that's the gnutls28 ubg
<vorlon> bug
<rbalint> vorlon, ok
<vorlon> because systemd-resolved links against libgnutls, confinement means text relocations were rejected at startup time, name resolution fails if your env pulled gnutls from -proposed
<vorlon> so yeah, I've retried that one now
<vorlon> (the log clearly shows it trying to pull all packages from -proposed and then falling over)
<rbalint> debconf: i'll retry with new u-u
<rbalint> any taker for openssh?
<vorlon> it's i386, I'm retrying it
<vorlon> (and reading the logs afterwards)
<vorlon> but I'll follow up
<rbalint> u-u is mine
<vorlon> it looks, at best, a flaky test
<sil2100> livecd-rootfs - looks like it just needs a re-run, apparently the tests were running at a wrong moment
<sil2100> Let me re-run it
<vorlon> golang-1.12-race-detector-runtime seems to be just plain missing from the archive
<cyphermox> I have been looking into netplan. I guess I better check what's up with pyyaml
<vorlon> (so, golang-defaults blocked on the Debian maintainers)
<rbalint> vorlon, ack
<rbalint> cyphermox, do you take pyyaml then?
<cyphermox> yessir.
<rbalint> cyphermox, thanks!
<rbalint> libvpx looks ok
<vorlon> libvpx is a lib transition
<vorlon> I'll kick off some rebuilds
<rbalint> vorlon, ok, thanks!
<rbalint> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<gaughen> rbalint, did we finish the proposed-migration list?
<rbalint> gaughen, yes
<sil2100> No AOB from me
<rbalint> so if there is no AOB, i'm closing the meeting in 1m :-)
<sil2100> Well, there is one thing...
<sil2100> It's international cat day
<sil2100> I guess that's important enough to discuss as AOB?
<rbalint> sil2100, i should have used shuf | cat
<sil2100> !
<sil2100> ;)
<sil2100> ð
<sil2100> (but seriously, no other AOB here)
<rbalint> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  8 15:31:53 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-08-08-15.03.moin.txt
<juliank> I'm going to visit my parents and cat soon
<rbalint> thank you all!
<juliank> re: cat day
<sil2100> rbalint: thanks for chairing!
<juliank> CATURDAY++
<gaughen> thanks rbalint
 * waveform will go look for his tac
<gaughen> who's the next chair?
 * juliank 
<juliank> ?
<gaughen> yes
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-08-04
<cpaelzer> Hi
<sarnold> good morning
<cpaelzer> #startmeeting Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Aug  4 14:31:14 2020 UTC.  The chair is cpaelzer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic:
<cpaelzer> ping for doko didrocks sarnold ddstreet jamespage
<cpaelzer> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<cpaelzer> we had no open action items
<cpaelzer> more interesting for when peopel show up will be the bug lists and component mismatches
<cpaelzer> so let me link the latter and wait until MIR members respond here
<cpaelzer> #topic current component mismatches
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: current component mismatches
<cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches-proposed.svg
<cpaelzer> #link https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.svg
<cpaelzer> what do we see excluding the usual suspects and known cases
<sarnold> python-invoke? is that new?
<sarnold> same with lzip?
<cpaelzer> yes I think so
<ddstreet> o/
<cpaelzer> lintian "things" usually where with foundations the last few times - doko is that still the case?
<doko> yes
<cpaelzer> ok
<cpaelzer> then let us check paramiko and what has put it in main
<doko> but every lintian upload seems to include new dependencies these days :-(
<cpaelzer> jamespage: I think that is for openstack - I see ironic, manila, cinder and such
<cpaelzer> jamespage: do you add this to your already long list to take a look if you want to MIR or modify it?
<doko> python-invoke, openstack
<cpaelzer> yep I found the same (see above) just wanted jamespage to ack looking for it
<cpaelzer> doko: opencl is that something you know about fromt he toolchain POV
<cpaelzer> as we wondered about ocl-icd -> khronis-... last week
<cpaelzer> I mean the latter has an approved MIR from the past
<cpaelzer> the question is re-promote it or do we want to not do this for soem reason?
<cpaelzer> lad MIR is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/khronos-opencl-clhpp/+bug/1636728
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1636728 in khronos-opencl-clhpp (Ubuntu) "[MIR] khronos-opencl-clhpp" [Undecided,Fix released]
<doko> stayed out a long time outside main, doesn't have a package provider anymore
<sarnold> what's a package provider?
<doko> kernel team? or tjaltoonen for the X stack?
<cpaelzer> sarnold: I guess doko meant a subscriber who takes care for it
<doko> oops, yes
<cpaelzer> doko: let me state that it needs a subscriber again on the bug (lter) and go on here
<cpaelzer> doko: I have checked fonts-material-design-icons-iconfont
<cpaelzer> it really is one of those font cases which don't need the full MIR process
<sarnold> cpaelzer: aha, thanks :)
<cpaelzer> doko: could you later on just promote it under the terms of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionProcess?action=show&redirect=MIRTeam#Font_Packages ?
<cpaelzer> you'll let me know later doko - as well as jamed page about paramiko - going on with the topics
<cpaelzer> #topic New MIRs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: New MIRs
<cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> there is some movement here
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tlp/+bug/1888656
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1888656 in OEM Priority Project "[MIR] tlp" [Critical,New]
<cpaelzer> was set to NEW and is supposed to be reviewed, I think I haven't taken one in a while and will take this one
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvme-cli/+bug/1889688
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1889688 in nvme-cli (Ubuntu) "[MIR] nvme-cli" [Undecided,New]
<ddstreet> i can take the nvme-cli one
<cpaelzer> this is a foundations case it seems, waits for xnox to comment as asked by vorlon
<cpaelzer> ddstreet: thanks, but if it is complex you might hold back until xnox/vorlon have settled if they really want it supported
<ddstreet> sure i'll let them settle before i start the review
<cpaelzer> thanks, I've assigned you
<cpaelzer> the next is a tripled for mdevctl
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libonig/+bug/1889248
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1889248 in mdevctl (Ubuntu) "[MIR] mdevctl, jq, libonig" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> this is driven by me and I can take jq and libonig
<cpaelzer> but mdevctl I'm the Debian and Ubuntu Maintainer as well as the MIR requester - it seems wrong to check that myself
<cpaelzer> needs another pair of eyes
<cpaelzer> anyone up to mdevtl MIR review?
<doko> cpaelzer: promote without a subscriber?
<cpaelzer> doko: the fonts package you mean
<cpaelzer> ?
<doko> yes
<doko> I'll look at mdevctl
<cpaelzer> thanks for mdevctl
<cpaelzer> I'll assign you so we know
<cpaelzer> well when steve told us that fonts packages should not require the full process that did not come up yet
<cpaelzer> but you are right someone has to look after it
<cpaelzer> :-/
<cpaelzer> I guess we need to ping whoever owns the package depending on it
<cpaelzer> that would be foundations
<cpaelzer> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/freetype
<cpaelzer> has https://launchpad.net/~foundations-bugs subscribed
<cpaelzer> doko: can you add that subscription and promote - would that work for you?
<doko> ok
<cpaelzer> and about https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/khronos-opencl-clhpp once more
<cpaelzer> in the past https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/khronos-opencl-clhpp/+bug/1636728/comments/5
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1636728 in khronos-opencl-clhpp (Ubuntu) "[MIR] khronos-opencl-clhpp" [Undecided,Fix released]
<cpaelzer> it was said that "ubuntu-x subscribed to bugs now"
<cpaelzer> they still are subscribed according to the package overview
<cpaelzer> I'm wondering if that is enough thou
<sarnold> is there still an 'ubuntu-x'? that feels a bit like something from before my time
<cpaelzer> well it is an old team with a lot of old names in it
<cpaelzer> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+members#active
<cpaelzer> RBH we should wait until didrocks is back to speak for desktop who would be the natural successor
<cpaelzer> that or kernel (given the bug history)
<cpaelzer> not resolving that today and going on
<cpaelzer> #topic Incomplete bugs / questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Incomplete bugs / questions
<cpaelzer> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> nothing new on this list
<cpaelzer> \o/
<cpaelzer> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Main Inclusion Requests status Meeting | Current topic: Any other business?
<ddstreet> i have a q
<ddstreet> something i noticed last week, it's the probert package, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/probert/+bug/1830347
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1830347 in probert (Ubuntu) "[MIR] probert as dependency of curtin" [Undecided,Fix released]
<ddstreet> it seems that the 'probert-network' binary pkg didn't correctly get promoted to main, so now (in f and g) we have 'probert' in main, and it depends on 'probert-network', but probert-netowrk is in universe
<ddstreet> i was surprised the mismatches svg didn't show it
<doko> doesn't show up in the text mismatches either
<cpaelzer> Odd_Bloke: ^^ I think we have talked about this did we ?
<ddstreet> it seems to just be an oversight, promoting version 0.17 back in eoan did appear to promote all binaries, but starting in focal at 0.17build1 it seems probert-network stayed in universe
<cpaelzer> ddstreet: there is also "probert-storage" which is in main
<ddstreet> yep just the -network seems wrong
<cpaelzer> $ reverse-depends --release=groovy probert-network
<cpaelzer> Reverse-Depends
<cpaelzer> * probert
<cpaelzer> * subiquitycore
<cpaelzer> it definetly should be in main
<ddstreet> is there something wrong with the mismatch generation code that it should have caught it?
<ddstreet> not a big deal, just was surprising to me
<Odd_Bloke> cpaelzer: I don't recall a specific discussion about -network, but I'm vaguely aware of the background of the probert split.
<cpaelzer> Odd_Bloke: was there any intention to not have probert-network in main as well?
<Odd_Bloke> I can't speak with authority on that, but I agree that I can't see why it wouldn't.  I'll ping Ryan in #curtin.
<cpaelzer> ddstreet: doko: also the text version of component mismatches doesn't mention it https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.html
<cpaelzer> I guess we have two things from here
<cpaelzer> a) promote it as it should be in and revisit if it is auto-demoted (it shouldn#t but who knows)
<cpaelzer> b) wonder and probably debug why the component mismatch script doesn't list it
<cpaelzer> I have no cycles left to do the debug anytime soon :-/
<cpaelzer> doko could you do (a) for us?
<cpaelzer> so we at least can do that part?
<cpaelzer> #action - recheck if probert was promoted and not auto-demoted again
<meetingology> ACTION: - recheck if probert was promoted and not auto-demoted again
<cpaelzer> while waiting for doko to tell us if this is ok to be promoted (groovy + focal)
<cpaelzer> I wanted to give a heads up that soon https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ceph-iscsi/+bug/1854362 will be ready as well
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1854362 in urwid (Ubuntu) "[MIR] ceph-iscsi, tcmu, python-configshell-fb, python-rtslib-fb, urwid, targetcli-fb" [Undecided,In progress]
<cpaelzer> it only misses the seed change to pull it in
<cpaelzer> ceph-iscsi itself wiats for seucrity still
<cpaelzer> @sarnold I ahve pinged the trello card you have
<cpaelzer> but everything els eis ready and a valid use-case withotu ceph-iscsi
<cpaelzer> so I expect next week this will show up in component misatches and needs promotions
<sarnold> cpaelzer: aha, nice, with all the grub2 issues and fde work I was worried chrisc_coulson might not get back to this for a while... hooray for progress :)
<doko> looks like I end up with all action items this week ;p
<doko> we can't promote it, if it's in the release pocket. that would need new uploads for -proposed
<cpaelzer> nope only the promotions as you are the only AA today, 3 MIR reviews where distributed to others
<cpaelzer> doko: can we at least promote it in groovy then?
<doko> yes. ddstreet, are you doing the uploads then, if you want to see it promoted?
<ddstreet> doko for probert? i can do a no-change rebuild if needed
<doko> yes
<ddstreet> for f and g, or just g?
<ddstreet> since it's in the release pocket for both of them currently
<doko> just f
<ddstreet> ah ok yep will do, thanks
<doko> anything else?
<cpaelzer> no I think we are good for today
<cpaelzer> thank all of you!
<cpaelzer> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Aug  4 15:18:58 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-08-04-14.31.moin.txt
<ddstreet> bye all, thanks o/
<sarnold> thanks cpaelzer, all :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-08-05
<ItzSwirlz> Good morning everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-08-06
 * ComputerKid sets down his sword by the door "aw man*
<ComputerKid> "
<ItzSwirlz> meeting time
<ComputerKid> Hello
<slyon> o/
<rbalint> o/
<ItzSwirlz> o/
<ItzSwirlz> so actually fridge says there are two meetings here.. foundations and translations
<ItzSwirlz> (thinking)
<bdmurray> Its actually the foundations meeting
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Aug  6 15:01:43 2020 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<rbalint> Lost in Translation ...
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity mwhudson juliank waveform slyon)
<bdmurray> bdmurray sil2100 vorlon tdaitx waveform slyon doko rbalint xnox infinity mwhudson juliank
<bdmurray> submitted RT 127091 re autopkgtest, nova, and Canonistack
<bdmurray> sponsored oops upload for waveform
<bdmurray> investigated, tested a fix, and submitted a PR for LP: #1887544
<ItzSwirlz> ?
<vorlon> (skip me for a bit, in another meeting that's running over)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1887544 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "upgrade from 18.04 to 20.04 fails to calculate if python-pyqt5-dbg is installed" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1887544
<bdmurray> investigated, tested a fix (or two), and uploaded a fix for LP: #1889449
<bdmurray> uploaded the above fix to the Focal SRU queue
<bdmurray> investigation into and testing of LP: #1888916
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1889449 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Focal) "18.04 to 20.04.1 upgrade on raspberry pi removes too many kernel meta packages" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1889449
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1888916 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Groovy) "upgrade from bionic to focal a server with molly-guard moves back sources.list to bionic entries" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1888916
<bdmurray> investigation into daisy units OOPS'ing with crashes from whoopsie in -security
<slyon> ItzSwirlz: its the foundations meeting
<bdmurray> uploaded apport SRU fixing LP: #1861451 and LP: #1872059
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1861451 in apport (Ubuntu Bionic) "apport's cloud-init-specific handling tracebacks on minimal cloud images" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1861451
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1872059 in OEM Priority Project "missing hardware/runtime info when reporing linux-firmware bugs via apport" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1872059
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * openjdk-8 security update
<tdaitx>   - packaged 8u265-b01, relased yesterday by security team
<tdaitx>   - reduced build time test failure retries from 3 to 2
<tdaitx>   - filtered some long running tests to improve autopkgtest and build times for armhf (clientvm, 21h -> 8h), powerpc (zerovm 42h -> 11h), and s390x (zerovm, 11h -> 3h)
<tdaitx> * jck-11
<tdaitx>   - update runtime testsuite job to use the know-to-pass tests baseline to detect regressions (while ignoring know failures)
<tdaitx>   - jtdiff/jtreg 4.2 on bionic wrongly reports a diff for tests that passed, which is totally weird and not expected, does not happen on focal (jtreg 5.0)
<tdaitx> (done)
<slyon> - Upgrade testing 18.04 to 20.04.1 on 2nd notebook
<slyon> - Prepared "Call for testing: iwd" discourse post & testplan
<slyon>   * used upgraded notebook to test/verify the steps involved
<slyon> - Reviewed ubuntu-release-upgrader, MP#388513
<slyon> - Prepared debdiffs for command-not-found (groovy & focal)
<slyon>   * bug #1875760, needs review/sponsoring
<slyon> === Netplan ===
<ubottu> bug 1875760 in command-not-found (Ubuntu Focal) "/usr/lib/cnf-update-db:sqlite3.OperationalError:/usr/lib/cnf-update-db@26:create" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1875760
<slyon> - User support on AskUbuntu/IRC
<slyon> - Appended OVS spec for global settings tagging
<slyon> - Got initial feedback for the NM plugin
<slyon>   * only the basics were tested, working so far
<slyon> - Merged IP addr labels, PR#89, bug #1743200, bug #1803203
<ubottu> bug 1743200 in nplan (Ubuntu) "No support for interface labels" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1743200
<ubottu> bug 1803203 in netplan.io (Ubuntu) "Support preferred_lft for IPv6 addresses" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1803203
<slyon> - Debugged "OVS broken on first boot" issue
<slyon>   * integration problem with cloud-init, bug #1870346
<slyon>   * description & discussions in PR#157
<slyon> - Continued working on Wireguard PR#113 a little
<slyon>   * Finalized integration test for NM & networkd
<slyon> (done)
<ubottu> bug 1870346 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "Wifi configuration" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1870346
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko> will go last, sorry
<bdmurray> I think vorlon already called last. ;-)
<bdmurray> rbalint:
<vorlon> I'm here now, don't have to be last :)
<rbalint> * verified unattended-upgrades SRU
<rbalint> * partner work
<ItzSwirlz> Pick one anyone, today's your lucky day
<rbalint> * poked systemd through migration
<rbalint> * +1 maintenance
<rbalint> * uploads via Debian: unattended-upgrades 2.6 & 2.7
<rbalint> * merged 246-2ubuntu1, uploading...
<rbalint> * testing glibc 2.32
<rbalint> * prepared glibc SRU for focal
<rbalint> * bug gardening
<rbalint> (done)
<bdmurray> "gardening"?
<bdmurray> there must be a better phrase
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> Uploaded better resolved integration across isc-dhcp, ifupdown, resolvconf
<xnox> Upload micorcode-initrd source NEW to allow microcode updates with initrd-less boot LP: #1890612
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1890612 in Ubuntu "ITP: Please support loading microcode early, whilst otherwise booting without initrd" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1890612
<xnox> Prepared dual-signed & boothole proof UC20 gadget
<xnox> Backport finalrd to xenial and provide a sample core16 build for Devices team to try with customer to help with shutdown issues
<xnox> Worked with lukas on systemd vs cloud-init vs netplan.io units
<xnox> Boothole retrospective and actions out of that.
<xnox> Slacked on proposed migrations / transitions....
<xnox> done
<vorlon> I'll go
<bdmurray> juliank:
<vorlon>  * short week, was out Tuesday
<vorlon>  * work on the fallout from hole-in-boot (LP: #1889556)
<vorlon>  * +1 maintenance yesterday/today
<vorlon>  * thinking about full-disk encryption in clouds
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1889556 in grub2 (Ubuntu Groovy) "grub-install failure does not fail package upgrade (and does not roll back to matching modules)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1889556
<vorlon> (done)
<juliank> * back from PTO last week
<juliank> * shim uploaded to groovy  (LP: #1864223)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1864223 in OEM Priority Project "shim 15+1552672080.a4a1fbe-0ubuntu1 fails to load fwupd" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1864223
<juliank> * apt: investigated doko's debian bug 967044 about rdepends not handling arch qualifiers
<ubottu> Debian bug 967044 in src:apt "apt/apt-cache rdepends doesn't handle qualifiers" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/967044
<juliank> * apt: various http "fixing"
<juliank> * grub for groovy (LP: #1831789, LP: #1878541, LP: #1878705, LP: #1882663)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1831789 in grub2 (Ubuntu Groovy) "Add "dis_ucode_ldr" to linux boot options for Recovery Mode" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1831789
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1878541 in snapd "Grub fails to load kernel from squashfs if mem < 1500mb" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1878541
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1878705 in grub2 (Ubuntu Focal) "Fix multiple initrds support in grub.conf" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1878705
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1882663 in grub2 (Ubuntu Focal) "Specify flavour ordering" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1882663
<juliank> grub SRU coming shortly, want to test a bit
<juliank> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon:
<vorlon> bdmurray: already snuck mine in above ;)
<doko> - groovy test rebuild, pinged teams about ftbfs in main
<doko> - investigated three gcc ICEs, armhf, s390x
<doko> - GCC/python backports for groovy now ready to start the test rebuild
<doko> - some MIR work
<doko> - some merges
<doko> - Debian now removed the python package as well, so we should be able to sync python2 related stuff again
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> vorlon: Oh I knew that, I'm totally paying attention.
<bdmurray> Any questions on status?
<ItzSwirlz> for so far?
<ItzSwirlz> (what we've been talking about)
<bdmurray> okay, moving on
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-gg-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> bug 1864571 isn't in the foundations section but caught my eye
<ubottu> bug 1864571 in ubuntu-dev-tools (Ubuntu Bionic) "SRU ubuntu-dev-tools" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1864571
<bdmurray> This has been tagged rls-gg-incoming but it's really a regression bug
<bdmurray> We should still card it as its our SRU though
 * vorlon nods
<bdmurray> tags fixed
<bdmurray> bug 1887098
<ubottu> bug 1887098 in what-is-python (Ubuntu) "Installing python-is-python3 should affect pip as well" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1887098
<bdmurray> Are we going to do something about this?
<ItzSwirlz> I think we're fine as long as the Python versios are specific, but what do I know
<xnox> ItzSwirlz:  hi, this meeting is for ~ubuntu-foundations members only. If you have any topics to bring up, you may do so, at the end of the meeting under AOB.
<bdmurray> Okay, let's take this
<bdmurray> The other bug is the dbus desktop one
<xnox> it's more than just symlinks
<xnox> but yeah.
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<mclemenceau> ok bdmurray, carded it
<bdmurray> I don't see anything new here
<xnox> i think all of them were discussed / are in progress no?
<xnox> do we just need to card them all?
<bdmurray> there are a couple that were already carded
<bdmurray> so I've sorted out there tags
<bdmurray> their
<bdmurray> I think we talked about not fixing the irssi
<vorlon> well apparently I'm affected
<vorlon> so I might upload it
<bdmurray> okay, but it doesn't seem worth carding
<vorlon> ok
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
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<vorlon> [LINK] https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<vorlon> numbers are going the wrong direction
<vorlon> please make sure that if you're taking one of these that you make the time to work on it over the next week
<rbalint> how about disabling tests in vim or in all packages on risc? ;-)
<vorlon> vim is ... stuck with me I guess since no one else wanted it
<vorlon> so we'll see
<vorlon> bdmurray: mpfr4?
<bdmurray> right
<vorlon> sounds like doko is taking lintian because it needs some archive promotions to fix the failures
<doko> ok
<xnox> werkzeug is me
 * vorlon nods
<vorlon> dbus-python is mine again; I started working on the upload of the package that needed to drop python2 support, but I don't remember where it got to
<xnox> bdmurray:  did you work on mercurila pygments?
<xnox> i had gpgme1.0 and autodep8
<bdmurray> xnox: I've recreated it a bit the mercurial tests are flaky
<vorlon> gpgme1.0 was waveform, but he's out this week
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
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<xnox> bdmurray: skip them and reupload?
<bdmurray> wow
<bdmurray> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=956697
<ubottu> Debian bug 956697 in src:mercurial "mercurial: flaky autopkgtests" [Normal,Open]
<vorlon> bdmurray: so should we hint to ignore the tests?
<xnox> cool
<xnox> vorlon:  i think that's for the best.
<rbalint> i also have several hints ready to be merged
<vorlon> hinted mercurial
<vorlon> xnox: autodep8 yours?
<vorlon> slyon: you had software-properties last week; you still good to work on it?
<vorlon> (and get it done this week)
<slyon> vorlon: yes its on my list
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> gce-compute-image-packages is mine, I had worked on it but apparently didn't get to the bottom of it
<vorlon> icu... is the big transition
<rbalint> vorlon, i guess the deps of gce- are mine
<vorlon> elfutils is new
<vorlon> rbalint: ah are these MIRs? Yeah I'll let you have this
<rbalint> vorlon, do you plan filing all mirs?
<vorlon> rbalint: pass ;)
<slyon> vorlon: well actually, last week we decided to leave software-properties with the uploader (tsimonq2), shall I take it anyways?
<vorlon> slyon: oh ok - yeah leave it with uploader
<slyon> k
<vorlon> elfutils vs makedumpfile - xnox do you want this?
<rbalint> makedumpfile is flaky and i've filed a hint
<xnox> vorlon:  sure.
<vorlon> dpkg.. a couple of flaky tests, but sbuild seems to have regressed on all archs and needs looked at
<vorlon> slyon: do you want this one?
<slyon> yes. I take that
<vorlon> json-c is also entangled with icu et al
<vorlon> new glibc upload with a bunch of tests that need retried / burned down
<xnox> vorlon:  slyon: sbuild regression, is actually procenv FTBFS with gcc-10, and i thought there was a bug against that in Debian / upstream. Fix procenv, unbreak sbuild, let stuff migrate.
<rbalint> i'm on it, filed hints
<vorlon> rbalint: is this yours to follow up on?
<doko> my understanding is that we go directly to glibc 2.32?
<vorlon> rbalint: ack
<rbalint> bug would like to get glibc dropped
<rbalint> but
<vorlon> "dropped"?
<slyon> xnox: thanks I will have a look at that
<vorlon> cmake vs cups
<rbalint> vorlon, from -proposed, because it is buggy and i'm preparing the next upload
<vorlon> juliank: can you take this one?
<juliank> ack
<vorlon> rbalint: ah, I'll just remove it now then
<vorlon> tdaitx: openjdk-8/armhf blocking cups, is this something you want to look at?
<tdaitx> vorlon: yeah
<doko> vorlon: that trigger is bogus
<doko> stop triggering on all openjdk versions
<vorlon> s390-tools and fwupd-signed are suspicious since they both involve signed binaries
<doko> it's *always* run against the default openjdk
<vorlon> doko: I haven't special-cased anything here
<doko> it's in the britney code ...
<vorlon> Impossible Depends: s390-tools -> libcrypto1.1-udeb/1.1.1f-1ubuntu3/s390x
<xnox> huh?!
<vorlon> possibly just a component-mismatch on the udeb, mislabeled
<rbalint> i carded plymouth/systemd because it is a test bug in systemd
<vorlon> mpclib3 just depends on mpfr4, already discussed
<vorlon> plymouth/systemd, I guess is rbalint
<vorlon> doxygen vs ghostscript: sil2100 could you take?
<sil2100> Sure!
<vorlon> util-linux vs gfs2-utils, I'll take
<vorlon> and I think we'll stop there
<vorlon> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<doko> https://people.canonical.com/~doko/ftbfs-report/test-rebuild-20200728-groovy-groovy.html#foundations-bugs
<bdmurray> I'll take whoopsie
<slyon> I'll take netplan (already prepare a patch for it, needs sponsoring)
<sil2100> Just assign 5 random packages from the list to me! Or can I pick those?
<xnox> doko:  ok, need to screen them to exclude those without proposed, and then will do a lottery.
<bdmurray> Alright
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Aug  6 15:53:06 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-08-06-15.01.moin.txt
<rbalint> for AOB, i'll be out tomorrow
<ItzSwirlz> Hello everyone
<ItzSwirlz> Comm council
