#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-21
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) morning to you too
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) good morning
<jsmanrique> good morning from spain
(MDK/#ubuntu-mobile) re
* Signon time  :    Sun May 20 23:26:05 2007
* Signoff time :    Mon May 21 09:57:53 2007
* Total uptime :    0d 10h 31m 48s
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu]  Welcome to #ubuntu! Please read the channel topic and consider spending some time on the FAQ mentioned there
-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- You do not have channel operator access to [#ubuntu-freshers] 
<mdz> Mithrandir: I see libhildon source in gutsy, but no binaries. is it waiting to be new'd?
(seb128/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: yes
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: the first upload ftbfs-ed due to a missing build-dep, I uploaded a fixed package about an hour ago.
<mdz> ah, ok
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) but the buildds are currently acting up for reasons I don't understand.  I've sent Adam an SMS and asked him to investigate and will prod cprov once he wakes up
<mdz> Mithrandir: what do you think is the best approach for the remaining components?  I expect some of them build unmodified and can just be synced in, though we may need to modify them later, and so we might want to have them in bzr anyway
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) importing into bzr is such a lightweight operation so I think importing them now rather than later is a good idea.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) my experience so far shows they don't really build unmodified, at least not on !i386
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) so MDK posted a picture of hildon : http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaeldominic/507685783/ :)
<adilson> Now I understand when they say they are having dependency problems with Hildon :D
<adilson> :-D
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) tko: that's a great picture.
<adilson> Things are flowing better here. I was able to clear libhildon-thumbnail, hildon-thumbnail-libid3, hildon-theme-tools, sapwood, hildon-themes-4 done and  hildon-themes-plankton so far.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) that's great.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) what's left for hildon-desktop then?
<adilson> I'll answer in a minute
<adilson> libhildonhelp and libossohelp I think.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) hildon-help should be imported
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) osso-help is superseded by hildon-help
<adilson> Hmmm... I'll check it out and see if I can wrap-up hildon-desktop.
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) 'clear' ?
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) oh btw, what would be the chance of convincing ubuntu to switch to git? :)
<adilson> tko: By "clear" I meant that I went over them, checking dependencies and be able to build  and create packages
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) alrighty
* Signon time  :    Mon May 21 10:06:12 2007
* Signoff time :    Mon May 21 20:48:50 2007
* Total uptime :    0d 10h 42m 38s
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu]  Welcome to #ubuntu! Please read the channel topic and consider spending some time on the FAQ mentioned there
-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- You do not have channel operator access to [#ubuntu-freshers] 
* adilson don't want to learn another version control system ;)
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) tko: given that Canonical sponsors the development of bazaar, I don't think you'll be able to convince us to switch to git.
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-22
!dmwaters:*! Hi all, that split was a rotation server that was taken out for maintenence. that wasn't the planned maintenence, but we know what the problem was.:)
!dmwaters:*! One more split for that rotation server that's not in rotation right now folks
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> kubrick.freenode.net
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> kubrick.freenode.net
<mdz> tko: bazaar offers us a lot over git; it's well integrated with launchpad, easier to learn and use, more robust
<mdz> tko: what do you have in mind which would make git attractive?  anything other than being faster?
<mdz> bazaar seems much more featureful
<asac> mdz: git rebase is pretty handy
<mdz> asac: what does that do?
<mdz> reading http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-rebase.html, that sounds like what bzr does by default, automatically
<mdz> if you have local changes and do a merge
<mdz> oh, it's talking about commits, not local changes
<asac> yes ... you can rebase
<asac> its pretty handy if you have committed changes that are not yet ready for upstream inclusion
<asac> e.g. if you upstream branch moves ahead you end up with with distinct patches for your features
<asac> you can probably do it with bzr as well ... but there is not a single command that does that for you imo.
<mdz> right
<asac> e.g. for me its pretty nice to keep clean patches against mozilla code base
<mdz> I'm not aware of one, though it's something which could be done easily as a plugin
<asac> nice thing is that a rebase detects if you already cherry-picked some  commit from parent branch
<mdz> asac: you import mozilla into git?
<asac> somehow :) ... i import new upstream releases manually (e.g. checkins are not preserved)
<mdz> what happens if you rebase, and then someone who has merged from your branch tries to merge again?
<mdz> but your commits have disappeared
<asac> you should not rebase on published branches
<mdz> :-)
<mdz> all branches should be published
<mdz> I think the bazaar answer to the general use case is looms
<mdz> that will give you a similar result but in a clean and mergeable way
<lool> mdz: I suppose you saw keithp's post on the robustness of the storage?
<mdz> lool: no
<mdz> url?
<lool> I think it's http://keithp.com/blog/Repository_Formats_Matter.html
<asac> mdz: i will look at looms :)
<mdz> lool: I don't know enough about bzr's storage model to know how it compares on those specific points
<asac> mdz: i really like bzr ... i am just unhappy that we didn't get the mozilla deal :(
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) we have the offline repo access, the private branches and the distributed backups just fine, but we rewrite the object files, and don't really do compression
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) and we're much slower than git.
<mdz> yes, I think every distributed VCS has those three principal advantages
<mdz> I don't think we rewrite files, though we do append
<mdz> Mithrandir: I'm pretty sure knits incorporate delta compression of some sort
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) ok
<mdz> I admit I like the idea of git's batch compression, since it maps well to usage (the bulk of history is old and already compressed, new stuff can be packed up later)
<mdz> it probably works well for small files
<mdz> http://bazaar-vcs.org/HistoryHorizon is more interesting I think
<mdz> it doesn't matter if the history is huge if you only get what you need
<ferulo> agoliveira, mdz you lost me :)
<agoliveira> ferulo: Hi Fernando. Lost you for what?
<ferulo> conferences :)
<agoliveira> Ah...
!christel:*! Hi all. The PDPC Board and freenode staff wish to make it clear that Andrew Kirch, aka trelane, does not in any capacity speak for or represent freenode, the PDPC board, or any member thereof. Please disregard any rumours to the omtrary. Formal statement to follow on our website. 
!christel:*! oops. ssh lag got the better of me, omtrary is of course, christelsk for contrary! Sorry for the disturbance and have a great day.
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: speed is pretty much the immediately most obvious thing
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: granted I've been mostly using git-svn but there's just something that makes it feel better once you get over the learning curve
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) I think my feeling about bzr vs. git is about perception mostly. I gather they're mostly comparable in terms of features, but git is faster and it's used by kernel, X and cairo. other than launchpad I can't name a single project that would have picked bzr
<ferulo> tko: telepathy stuff
<ferulo> well, they mix darcs and bzr IIRC
<adilson> I finished entering all the basic hildon components (from Tommi's list) into launchpad. I'll now go over the python bindings which I believe we are going to need anyway.
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-23
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) hmm, I wonder if we can drop the osso-gwconnect dependency, as bluez itself provides that functionality now.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) it'd require some source code changes, but should be relativetly easy.
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) Mithrandir: can you ask on the mailing list? I can then forward it to the gwconnect maintainer
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yes, I was planning to.
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) there was some connectivity stuff that was moving towards bluez, but I can't recall what exactly it was
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) he suggested it in a comment to a blog post of James Henstridge about half a year ago, so I wouldn't think he'd be opposed to it
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) http://blogs.gnome.org/view/jamesh/2006/10/5/0
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) there, sent.  I Cc-ed Johan Hedberg.
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) ah, cool, saved me the trouble :)
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) ok, time to go to the office :-/
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) given he's upstream of the code and I reference his comment, I only found it polite to do so.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) hmm, hildon-fm seems to need a bit of love in order to compile here.
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) Mithrandir: yes, hildon-fm requires exporting some private stuff from gtk
* tko goes off the air
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) see you
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I've ifdef-ed out the tap-and-hold bits, but it seems to be caught up in some file chooser bits.
<PP3-Man> how difficult is it to compile a kernel module in Ubuntu Mobile?
<PP3-Man> Hello?
<agoliveira> PP3-Man:Hi. When it came along, should be no different than the usual.
<agoliveira> s/cames/comes
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: do you have the moderator password for the mobile list?
<mdz> Mithrandir: I do, yes.  I tend to it pretty much every day
<mdz> Mithrandir: I'm happy to share that responsibility with you if you're willing
<ferulo> mdz, what python policy is ubuntu following?
<mdz> ferulo: essentially the debian python policy
<ferulo> the latest one?
<mdz> further to that, we make efforts to, e.g., ensure that all python modules in main use python-central or similar, to ease transitions
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) mdz: I'd be happy to
<mdz> ferulo: if something significant has changed just recently, I'm not aware of it yet
<mdz> ferulo: doko is our python czar
<ferulo> I guess that our maemo python bindings packages doesn't comply that policy at all:
<ferulo> https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/packages/?root=pymaemo
<doko> ferulo: are all these packages maintained independently?
<ferulo> currently yes, they are a garage project
<ferulo> and they are available on the extras repository
<ferulo> not in our official images
<doko> looks like most of them are in the ubuntu archive as well
<ferulo> however they are included on sardine and our upcoming releases
<ferulo> well, most of them are "empty" packages just including patches
<ferulo> but some of them modified upstream stuff so we have our own tree
<ferulo> (and python-hildon) is 100% new stuff
<doko> is there a reason why your upstream changes can't go into the ubuntu packages?
<ferulo> well, for the python runtime we have specific patches for low memory/cpu devices
<ferulo> for gtk... as we are shipping a modified version of gtk, some non-upstream changes are also needed
<ferulo> gnome-python is a subset of upstream gnome-python bindings, only gnome-vfs and gconf
<lool> ferulo: Indeed, I had a look at python-hildon, and I don't think it's compliant with the second version of the debian python policy
<ferulo> what tools does that 2nd version of debian python policy require?
<lool> ferulo: Basically, the version 2 encourages packages to avoid any hardcoding of the Python versions, and encourages supporting multiple Python versions at the same time
<lool> ferulo: For example, instead of building public Python extension for a fixed version of python, you build them for "all currently supported python versions"
<lool> Which is returned by the pyversions tool
<lool> ferulo: http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy gives a good overview of the required changes
<lool> There are two competing implementations of the Python Policy support infrastructure: python-central and python-support; they are hooked in the build process in approximatively the same way, but they have subtle differences which you probably don't need to care about
<ferulo> #
<ferulo> Build-Depends on "debhelper (>= 5.0.38)".
<ferulo> #
<ferulo> Add a Build-Depends on python-central (>= 0.5.6).
<ferulo> that debhelper is going to be a problem to us for following debian python policy :(
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) ferulo: why is debhelper 5 a problem?
<lool> (One small warning, the python-support documentation tends to suggest doing things which are not compatible with python-central; I recommend sticking to the general guidelines instead of following the specialized python-support advice, for example use a debian/pycompat file)
<ferulo> currently for sardine/our internal integration is
<ferulo> but let me try
<lool> ferulo: debhelper isn't too much of a problem I think
<doko> ferulo: for ubuntu we prefer to use python-central
<lool> ferulo: Basically, Python stuff moved away from Debhelper, and you don't need to call "dh_python" anymore
<lool> doko: haha :)
<lool> ferulo: So I expect it will work with older Debhelper too
<doko> lool: no haha
<ferulo> oh, nice
<ferulo> I would try then to convert those packages to python-central
<lool> doko: Perhaps a small bitter chuckle?
<doko> lool: =)
<lool> doko: (I added the python policy stuff and python-central preference to <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/MaemoPackagingCleanup>)
<mdz> lool: thanks
<adilson> Mithrandir: If you have a few minutes to spare, I would like to discuss a few quick issues, if you please.
<gotnix> hey. Can someone if possible tell me what exactly will the ume be able to run on?
<gotnix> I'm hoping that it extends to smart phones such as the qtek. and so on
<gotnix> hello
<adilson> gotnix: We are still too in the beginning of the project to be able to tell anything for sure but AFAICT, the idea is to have everything from the desktop.
<gotnix> thats what i thought? which leads me to the question of why?
<gotnix> If there is already ubuntu for the desktop why make another edition called mobile
<gotnix> I'm not against it. I"m very excited about the project.. and have high hopes (hoping it extends to the mobile device market, pda's etc)
<adilson> gotnix: because the requirements for the hardware are different. The UI has to have specific features like support for small screens and touch. The kernel has to fit those requirements also and so on...
<gotnix> Meaning if that is going to be a possibility it might not be anywhere in the immediate future.
<gotnix> okay... fair enough. Small steps I can only hope Ubuntu will make its way to the pda market eventually
<adilson> gotnix: The schedule is to have the first version lauched at the same time as the next desktop version: october.
<gotnix> yeah i read about simultaneous launching of the ume with gutsy. but I mean for pda's and so on. 
<adilson> gotnix:Our first target are devices like x86 webpads. Things like PDAs are different beasts. Of course we want to cover them also but can't say right now when.
<gotnix> Oh. Okay. That was what iw as asking initially. My apologies for asking the question wrong i guess
<gotnix> Are you apart of the development team btw? I'm a blogger and i was just trying to garner further information before doing a blog entry
<gotnix> well are you?
<adilson> gotnix: Yes, I'm in the dev team.
<gotnix> K. thanks for all the info just wanna make sure my source is a viable / valuable one. mind if i use your name in the blog entry i'm gonna do?
<adilson> gotnix: Not at all.
<gotnix> Thanks alot man. Thanks for the dime
<adilson> gotnix:No problem.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) adilson: I'm here now.
<adilson> Mithrandir: fine. Can I go over a few itens with you?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) sure
<adilson> Mithrandir:Did you start to check the osso-gw-connect problem?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) not really, hildon-fm doesn't compile as-is
<adilson> Mithrandir:Fine. Well, I did and I was thinking, for now, just keep it as is and ignore the functions that calls the proprietary stuff. What do you think?
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) I think if you skip the gwconnect stuff, you'll only miss the bottommost icon in the filechooser which would be your paired bluetooth device
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) OTOH if you already have the UI for pairing with BT devices, changing the code to use the bluez APIs instead would be nice
<adilson> Yes, the idea would be change for bluez I was thinking if it worth the trouble do it right now.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I think just note it somewhere and move on
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I'd like to do a first sweep so we have something that can display a hildon desktop in an xnest, then we fix all the missing bits and brokenness
<adilson> I tought the same: go into bluez right now would delay the whole thing quite a bit.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) agreed.
<adilson> Mithrandir: Great. Thanks.
<adilson> Mithrandir:another thing. Can you get me some taime tomorrow to put up that todo?
<adilson> s/taime/time
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) get you some time as in?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) add anything you see to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/MaemoPackagingCleanup
<adilson> adilson:as in chat with me for some time tomorrow.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) sure, just catch me when you're ready.
<adilson> Mithrandir: Cool. Thanks.
<adilson> Mithrandir: Is there a way to checkout all the components under ~ubuntu-mobile?
<lool> I can a snippet to list bzr branches for a launchpad people page if you like
<lool> Hmm too late
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-24
<PepperPup> Hi, I'd like to try Ubuntu-Mobile on my PepperPad3 UMPC. How can I participate?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) hi Adilson
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Good morning
<agoliveira> Mithrandir:btw, I saw that hildon-fm was updated 1 hour ago. Have you removed the osso-gw-connect dependency?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) no, not yet.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) but I made it build here, by ripping out some core bits of the library.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: You mean ripping bits from from osso-gw-connect as we spoke yesterday?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) no, that's the next step; I just built osso-gw-connect locally here
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ok, so what do you prefer to me to do next? That or can I move on?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I'm happy to finish off -fm
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) you started on -desktop?
<agoliveira> agoliveira: Just started then came that osso-gw-connect problem but I can return to it.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Just started then came that osso-gw-connect problem but I can return to it.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: BTW, can you post this osso-gw-connect you used to build hildon-fm?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I'd like to sit down and make a TODO list with all the bits we know we need to fix
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I just built it out of svn
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I can give you the source, sure
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) http://err.no/tmp/osso-gwconnect_1.0.10.tar.gz http://err.no/tmp/osso-gwconnect_1.0.10.dsc
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yes, that's the kind of TODO I was talking about yesterday.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir:I can help you whenever you're ready.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I just need to finish up some bits here, give me 15 minutes?
<agoliveira> Sure, no problem.
<agoliveira> Just tip me.
<mdz> agoliveira: good morning
<agoliveira> mdz: Good morning
<kwwii> mdz: do I need to be on the conf call this evening?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) new libhildon uploaded, this hopefully won't FTBFS
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/TODO , fyi
(wmat/#ubuntu-mobile) anyone working on powerusage may be interested in the PowerTop tool: http://www.linuxpowertop.org/
<lool> Mithrandir: Great!  Nice to see the TODO summed up
<lool> wmat: I just added it a couple of minutes ago to the powerusage wiki page
<lool> It's a great tool indeed
(wmat/#ubuntu-mobile) heh, thx, i was just about to do that as well
<lool> But there are so many offenders, it's going to take a while to hunt all these modules and programes
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) it's certainly not complete, but it's a start, at least.
<lool> Mithrandir: Will all sources be managed in bzr ultimately?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I think so, yes.
<lool> Ok
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) FYI: this is the list of changes we've made on top of gtk 2.10: http://live.gnome.org/Maemo/Gtk210Changes
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) I'd also like point out that our patched gtk should be ABI compatible, except for a couple unfortunate changes to property defaults. all changes are surrounded with #ifdef guards to work as documentation but also to require one to explicitly ask for them
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) would much break if we reverted the property defaults?
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) no. ironically the changes are there for backwards compatibility for our application teams :)
* Signon time  :    Mon May 21 20:49:01 2007
* Signoff time :    Thu May 24 20:15:30 2007
* Total uptime :    2d 23h 26m 29s
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- [#ubuntu]  Welcome to #ubuntu! Please read the channel topic and consider spending some time on the FAQ mentioned there
-ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- You do not have channel operator access to [#ubuntu-freshers] 
(heno/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: are we moving to scalable mouse pointers for gutsy?
(Seveas/#ubuntu-mobile) heno, you scared him :)
(heno/#ubuntu-mobile) Seveas: He's in the dev meeting, so I'll catch him there :)
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-25
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hmm
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) guys?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) are you pondering this issue of possible high dpi screens and how icon sizes etc relate to this?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and how big on-screen elements should be?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) we should work together to make the desktop icon theme standards etc fit our needs on the embedded as well, so we come up with a working plan and then try to collaborate with desktop people
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) hi tigert
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I've noticed it being raised as a problem, yes.
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hi Mithrandir 
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so is ken your ui guy now?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) at least artwork guy; unsure if he does/is supposed to do UI too.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) (that is, to a larger extent than artwork and concepts here will be UI)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ok, who does ui? we should try to collaborate as much as possible
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I think Ken is the best person to talk to.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) since he's been doing the mockups and such
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) Mithrandir: http://tigert.1g.fi/kuvat/Misc/16x16.jpeg < this 16x16  icon explains the problem fairly well
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the black thing is the N800 stylus
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the tip
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yup
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) you're currently using a pixmap based theme, right?  So that needs to change if we want to support different dpis.
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) or we need to have different versions for different DPIs
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) svg is slower on small devices with limited cpu
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it depends on two things
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) dpi and physical size
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) you can scale icons in svg fairly nicely to wanted size as long as it is bigger than certain size
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah, they can get very muddy if you make them too small
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but its also that if the physical size of icons is very small on screen (even if they are 48x48 for example) it doesnt make sense to put much detail there
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) that shouldn't be a problem on high-dpi screens though?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) oh, ok
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its both the pixel resolution 
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, can you see the detail
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but also whether you WANT to see it?
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) true
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) because its still darn small
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and if you are walking etc, you dont care much about the miniscule detail
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) indeed
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) you just want to know what the icons are about
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) do you have a suggestion on how to fix that?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I think just design for physical size
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) we need to forget about pixel sizes with this high dpi (the N800 and 770 are about 230dpi)
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) that should be doable with SVGs, shouldn't it?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) especially for things like chat etc things that you use with fingers while walking
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it should perhaps, but this is a deeper problem
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah, and on-screen keyboards.
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) "what fits on screen" vs "what can be comfortably used with your big fat fingers" 
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or stylus etc
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) different use cases
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) also if you walk with a device, stylus is harder to use
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or if you have some car navigation thing for example
* Mithrandir nods.
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) those have big buttons and fonts even though the screen res might be quite big
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but so, we need to collaborate since our needs towards gtk etc are fairly similar
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) is GTK able to give us what we need or do we have to get patches in there?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ask tko :)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) he knows more about this
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but its like we who have handheld things etc (ubuntu mobile, openmoko and maemo etc)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) should perhaps make sure we talk with each other and decide what we want to propose to gtk together
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) instead of doing similar but slightly different things each :)
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) so far, we're basically riding on maemo's back, but I can easily see us want some things that are not needed by maemo itself
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) and we'll at least initially have more high-powered devices so the performance cost of vectors vs pixmaps is easier for us
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it all depends on the batteries you have :)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or the device power will not be much fun :)
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) true that.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I'm hoping the tickless kernel and the work which powertop has spurred will make that easier for us, at least.
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Does it make sense to limit the SVG usage to a subset, perhaps SVG Mobile or SVG Basic, and is it harder to author?
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Makes me also wonder whether it would help to cache the SVG rendering at some key sizes, or convert SVG sources to pixmaps of various sizes at build time
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: its harder to author 
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: though, I guess limiting it "softly" in a guideline might be easier
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I dunno if inkscape or such support any svg mobile spec
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and there are no free libs to do that - but I guess as long as the icons are simple, things work ok
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but yeah, bitmaps are always faster
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it just makes a ton of sense to draw icons etc in svg in the first place
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (tigert: I'm not even sure we have tool to validate whether something is SVG Mobile or Basic, but I expect that limiting to this seemingly easier to render subset might help for the problems you raised previously)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so you can modify them easier
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Are the current pixmap icon sizes satisfactory for the high DPIs?
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I think these are 16/22/24/33/36/48/64/72/96/128/192, but I'm not sure
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I need to check
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) of course our stuff is all weird and I want to change this
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hildon has all strange sizes and names for icons
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Heh :)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I wish to start using stock icon names at some point, but its not a quick change
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) however thanks to tango's icon-naming-utils this might be doable with a transition time
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: With stock icons, it's hard to avoid the trap of using the icons for what the implementation represents instead of only considering the purpose of the icon
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) what do you mean?
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: I mean relying on the fact that the "soundcard" icon has a card drawn on it and using this as a picture for a MMC card
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) oh right
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea, we need metaphor list or something
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so we first come up with good metaphors for icons
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: This trap is not a risk when you fork the icons in apps
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) then its easy to theme them differently if needed
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (But obviously losing theming capabilities)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its not a risk either if you try to coordinate the icon use in apps a bit
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Yeah, I agree it's not a risk if you don't make the mistake :)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Plus, icon transitions are a real pain, with no good way to tell what apps use which icons
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) google code search?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or one can just grep 
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: You can't check for all new upstream releases of all software :-/
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its a bit pile of code yeah
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: If you compare to library dependencies, these are declared and checked at build time quite clearly, and packagers review the diff of configure.ac, but for icons we can't do anything similar
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Even depending on an icon at the packaging level is quite hard
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) unless we have some unified icon spec that contains metaphors
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and guarantees that certain set of icons exist
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and then you depend on a certain version of that
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) Say, if you know the icon is required (or crash!) and it's an icon defined by the standards, then you need to let some alternate icon theme packages be installed to satisfy the dependency
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its also a problem that many apps just need special icons
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and how to make those themeable?
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Perhaps imposing the metaphors is a solution; I fear it introduces other subtle issues, but well...
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: True
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) So I'd say icon packaging is a mess these days :)
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I tickled the idea with Vincent (Untz) at UDS, and he wasn't too hot in adding infrastructure to track such dependencies, but he also said that incompatible icon name changes were over now
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) He thinks there was a period of trouble which is over; I truly hope so
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) vuntz: Hey Vincent!
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) its also a problem at work here - for artists, its good to have just a big pile o' icons
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) to draw
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but for sane development you want to split them
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) somehow
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so that your icon package does not cause all kinds of nightmare dependency problems when you lack an icon
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Yes, some icon themes do not implement the full icon set by themselves and inherit another theme for the rest
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or if you need an icon in app X that is not yet there, but it contains an icon for app Y that you would like to add in already
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but hmm
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) It means you can't even check whether an icon theme package is "compliant" with an icon set at build time
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) maybe inheritance could work
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) have a base stock theme
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but damn
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no it wont work
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: It's in use already I think
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) dobey had some ideas
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that apps have their own icon theme folder structure
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and just add that in icon search path
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Check /usr/share/icons/*/index.theme; some have "Inherits=" in [Icon Theme] 
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea, I know
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) (Oh ok, I thought you knew, but I mismatched the discussion we were having, sorry)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no worries :)
* lool bbl &
* CTCP AVATAR reply from TimGroe: 
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2006-June/006743.html
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: this is how kde does it I think
* CTCP AVATAR reply from TimGroe: 
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: I find that "weird"
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) I don't understand how the share/apps/$appname/icons/$themename can work; are such files supposed to be installed by individual themes?  Or is this an example of themable applications where you create a per-app theme?
<agoliveira> mdz: Do you intend to extend the meeting in June to 16 (saturday)? I just received an email from Dionne Wheeler asking about that and I tought that we would be there until friday only.
(mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: as far as I am concerned, you are free to do as you like after close of business Friday
(mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: what did Dionne ask exactly?
<agoliveira> mdz: She sent me 2 possible flight intineraries, both returning on 17/06 (sunday), I asked why not on 16 and she told me she tought that our meeting would extend until 16. That's why I asked.
(mdz/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: sounds like there was some confusion; that did not come from me
<agoliveira> mdz: Probably it was just a mix-up with the dates. I don't have the intention to stay there during the weekend. Well, it's clear to me now. Thanks.
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: yea, its a bit weird
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I guess its so that if apps want to ship theme variants of their icons (say, N800 has four themes in it when you buy it)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) if we wanted to theme icons, we could then have /usr/share/email/icons/theme1 etc
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, look at it from the other perspective
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) if you are making a theme, its hard to know what apps might be installed etc
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but if you are an app maker, to support some theme, you make an icon set and install it to themename/ under your app's own icon dir
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) so that would then work
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Ok, I begin to understand that application authors might have the knowledge of what themes are installed (for example they know the list of default themes on a system), and would want their application to he integrated in these themes
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) And I also understand the choice of layout now; even if I find it slightly unfortunate :)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: at least if you are building a product :)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) then you know what themes there'll be
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) by default
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) The concept of icon theme path begins to make sense now; I even imagine how we could search dirs based on a format string such as "share/$app/icons/%s" % theme
(lool/#ubuntu-mobile) tigert: Right; it still seems to somehow break the concept of themes for me, but I understand the purpose of the approach and the problem it solves
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) agoliveira: did you start investigating hildon-desktop?
<agoliveira> Yes but I had to step back becasue of the i10l dependencies.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) can you push what you've done into the bzr repo?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I can push the rest as I didn't do anything that works on hildon-desktop yet.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) ok
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) I don't mind if the branches you've pushed don't actually completely work yet.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) (as long as it says so on TODO)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Can this wait a bit? I completely obliterated my chroot enviromment and I finish to putting back.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) sure, it's more of a general thing, try to be proactive about pushing changes.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ah, nice. As soon as I finish it here, I'll organize what I've done and push it.
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) great. :-)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) lool: yea, we clearly need to discuss and ponder this a bit more
<kwwii> hi tigert
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) hi ken
<kwwii> tigert: did you make the whole plankton theme alone? that is some pretty nice stuff from which I have borrowed a thing or two :-)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) well, not the template system
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but I basically drew over the old (ugly) N770 theme template
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) I noticed the "drag handle" holes :)
<kwwii> lol, thanks for those, btw :-)
<kwwii> I guess my next mockups are going to be a little more closer to reality
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: I realise I haven't told you, but your mockups rock.  My only fear is they're giving people too high hopes. :-P
<kwwii> Mithrandir: I think that if we keep decent goals set for each release we can slowly make our way to something pretty cool - we'll learn along the way as well :-)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yeah
* kwwii has never even had a mobile device in his hand before - I am sure I will learn a lot
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: get a N800
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) it makes you understand a lot of things
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) kwwii: http://tigert.1g.fi/kuvat/Misc/16x16.jpeg
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that is a 16x16 pixels icon
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) on the 770 screen
<kwwii> tigert: yeah, I was thinking about trying to get one...just don't want to pay for it personaly :-)
<kwwii> lol, it is just a spot
<kwwii> I was amazed at the resolutions these things have on such tiny screens - finally I can make nice big icons :p
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yea. and we need to forget pixel sizes and start to work on physical dimensions, siince thats what matter for widgets etc on touchscreen
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the mobility is a new world otherwise too.
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) i just left work and walking to the mall for some weekend shopping =)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) s/walking/i am walking/
<kwwii> hehe, enjoy your weekend :-)
<kwwii> I will always remember when we were chatting a few years ago and you said "I am outside washing my dog"
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) that must have been walking, and the T9 text input guessed wrong =)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) since it was putty on my phone then
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) hrm.. we really need to start poking people to give us decent irc access
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) no kidding.
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) or use the n800s
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) sucks to copypaste stuff from your laptop to n800
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) clipboard-over-ssh? :-)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) synergy ;)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) but that returns you to the "no ssh" part :)
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) you don't have ssh access out from work?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) not officially
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) everything needs to use a proxy
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) http proxy or ssh proxy or socks proxy?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) http
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) ok, and I guess they're not entirely happy about people doing ssh-over-http or similar crack
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) yes. i know how. but it should just work
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) it should, unless it's a policy decision to not allow you to use real internet.
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) ie, should not require you to run a sshd at home to get work done ;)
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) exactly
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) the company network  works better for keeping trade secrets than for free software devel ;)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) even the former can be argued of course but lets not go into security as its not the point here
* Mithrandir nods
(Mithrandir/#ubuntu-mobile) trying to keep trade secrets in by technical means is.. hard.
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) very
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-26
<PP3-Man> hello people
<PP3-Man> How can I help adapt Ubuntu Mobile for the Pepper Pad  3?
<PepperDog> Will Ubuntu Mobile release an .ISO ?
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) let them once get something hacked together, guys
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) :)
(tigert/#ubuntu-mobile) and how exactly do you plan to install from a CD-Rom image into a handheld device? :)
(tko/#ubuntu-mobile) well, the device could pretend to be a cd-rom and you'd install the image on it with cdrecord or such :)
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-05-27
<user_> hello
<user_> i wana ask about something can i ??
<user_> is anyone here ??
<user_> any way is the ubuntu mobile gona work on the nokia n80 ? or se990i ?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-19
<Pascal_1> hello
<Pascal_1> is there a stable version of ubuntu mobile ?
<lool> Pascal_1: Not yet
<lool> Pascal_1: Hopefully next month
<Pascal_1> ok thank you
<tonyespy> ToddBrandt: ping
<GrueMaster> davidm: ping. Any updates on rc?
<davidm> Getting closer, we are about to clear several critical bugs.  We have seven, 6 are in progress or fix committed.
<GrueMaster> ok.  Anything I can do to help?
<davidm> So I'm hoping to clear all six in the next day or two.  Just pay attention to StevenK or lool if they need something tested.
<GrueMaster> Will do.
<davidm> Once we clear the 6 we go RC
<davidm> the 7th is not really critical but I'm carrying it as such in case we can clear it, but it's not an SOW item and it's not a graphics driver bug so it will be moved to high if need be.
<GrueMaster> What's the bug #?
<GrueMaster> Nevermind, I think I found it.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-20
<CShadowRun> Is there any page with a list of supported phones?
<GrueMaster> Phones?  Did you not read the FAQ so well prominently displayed at the top of the screen when you enter the room?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-24
<lool> asac: Ok; I guessed it was one side lib, either h-d or fm
<greenwhich> hello
<greenwhich> is it possible to join development?
<Keybuk> what's the difference between the -lpia and -lpiacompat kernels?
<greenwhich> in FAQ page question 'How to join the Embedded&Mobile Development Team? ' has no answer:)
<greenwhich> helloes!
<emgent> hello
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-05-25
<slimjimflim> hello
<slimjimflim> anybody know of any good sdio wifi adapter
<slimjimflim> esp one w/ high gain, low power and/or packet injection
<andre_> where can i download this?
<andre_> or how i mean :)
<emgent> heya
<andre_> hey
<montamer> what is ubuntu-mobile?
<montamer> is there any product using it
<montamer> ?
<Zic> Ubuntu Netbook Remix and Ubuntu Mobile Edition are the same thing or not ?
<Zic> (hi)
<davidm> Zic, they are different, the  Ubuntu Netbook Remix is for Netbooks and currently the Ubuntu Mobile Edition is for hand held MID (Mobile Internet Devices) kind of palm sized things.
<Zic> davidm: thanks for your answer, I had just ask sabdfl about it :)
<Zic> Â« the netbook remix is a special edition we are making for some OEM customers, it uses the standard 8.04 packages but is tailored for netbook form factors Â»
<davidm> Netbooks are sub-notebook kind of things.  
<Zic> (quote from sabdfl)
<Zic> (we are planning a meeting about free/open embedded platform for an Hardy Party in France, I needed a clearly information about "netbook remix" for this conference, so I direcly ask sabdfl about his interview where he speaks about "netbook remix")
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-18
<ndroid> hewow room
<ndroid> salam lekum.. :)
<unbuntu> harrumpfh.. no one is alive
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-19
<sn00kie> I have an arm board that I've built a kernel for and a generic file system.  If I used the rootfs of ubuntu-mobile and mounted that at boot, would that be all that was involved or would I need to build the entire fs for my particular processor?
<chaos2fu> hi everybody, can someone help me to get the current open program in ubuntu netbook remix to become bigger?
<chaos2fu> hi everybody, can someone help me to get the current open program in ubuntu netbook remix to become bigger?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-20
<lassegul> good morning guys. have u tried the new moblin beta? what do you think of it in comparison to nb-launcher? Are the concepts tried out there being considered into nb-launcher/UNR?
<dashua[A90]> Not possible for 
<dashua[A90]> Compiz and UNR to run simultaneously?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-21
<sn00kie> f I follow the instructions on: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/RootfsFromScratchÂ and build a root file system, can I use my own kernel?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-23
<sn00kie> If I have my own kernel, and I take the ubuntu file system and build it from scratch, will my kernel I've built on my own work giving me ubuntu-mobile?
<sn00kie> If I have my own kernel, and I take the ubuntu file system and build it from scratch, will my kernel I've built on my own work giving me ubuntu-mobile?
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-05-24
<puppetmaster> I'm just wondering about the possibility of ubuntumobile on nokia phones
#ubuntu-mobile 2010-05-24
<Invisrcm> hey
<Invisrcm> anyone here at the moment
<Invisrcm>  would someone be able to help me get my wifi card actually to connect to my network, under iwconfig wlan0 i get access point: not associated
<persia> Invisrcm: I'm not sure we're the best set of folks to help with that.  You might have better luck in the regular support channels (e.g. #ubuntu)
<Invisrcm> lol its just way too crowded in there
<persia> I know how that is.
<persia> Sometimes it works better to ask a local time.  So, for instance, if you7re in the UK, ask in #ubuntu-uk
<persia> The same format should work for any two-letter country code.
<Invisrcm> lol
<Invisrcm> kkk
<persia> I believe it's broken up even further for #ubuntu-us-* so that one adds a state abbreviation.
<Invisrcm> ill try it out
<persia> Good luck.
