#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-25
<IlyaHaykinson> Lulu costs for publishing aren't cheap.
<IlyaHaykinson> a 150 page manual is ~USD9.25
<IlyaHaykinson> they do have "publsiher grade" paper, which is cheaper (USD6.20), but that's only available in US Letter sizes
<IlyaHaykinson> which, I suppose isn't a problem -- if it's pre-printed, it doesn't need to be sized according to locale
<IlyaHaykinson> but still, not super-cheap
<humphreybc> so does the user pay for that?
<humphreybc> or us?
<humphreybc> planet ubuntu manual is up!
<IlyaHaykinson> i think whoever orders the print pays the cost. if we pre-print 100 copies then i guess we pay for them, they get shipped to us (whoever "us" is), and we get to ship them out to people. cost goes down.
<IlyaHaykinson> if the user orders them, then the user pays the cost
<IlyaHaykinson> actually, the prices i mentioned were the manufacturing prices
<IlyaHaykinson> er, manufacturing costs
<IlyaHaykinson> on top of that, Lulu itself takes USD2.00
<IlyaHaykinson> and then there's shipping
<humphreybc> ah
<humphreybc> so expensive for us?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Here's how lulu has worked in the past for me.
<godbyk> You set the price of the book (which has to be a minimum that lulu sets based on page count and size).
<godbyk> If you don't want to make any money on the book, then lulu will sell it for the manufacturing cost (and not take a percentage).
<godbyk> Whoever purchases the book through the lulu.com site pays the bill.
<godbyk> So we could put books up on lulu at no cost to us.
<godbyk> The person who buys the book pays for that book.
<godbyk> If we set it at $0 profit, then they get the book at cost.
<IlyaHaykinson> godbyk: ah, so lulu won't even take their $2 if we don't take a cut? that's nice.
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: That's correct.
<godbyk> At least that's how it worked a couple years ago when I last put a book on there.
<godbyk> You can also offer the book for download on their site (at some price you set, or for free).
<IlyaHaykinson> *sigh* lulu actually sued my company once... :)
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm sure it cost us more than nominal amounts to defend ourselves, till we settled. not that i'm bitter.
<IlyaHaykinson> ah, re pricing, godbyk -- you're right. lulu takes 20% of the author's markup, not a fixed fee, thus if there's no markup then there's no fee for lulu
<godbyk> IlyaHaykinson: wow. what'd they sue your company for?
<humphreybc> So we can put the manual on lulu to offer it for print?
<godbyk> Also, there are other POD companies out there that we can look at.  I've only used lulu, though, so I don't know about the others.
<godbyk> humphreybc: yes.
<godbyk> It wouldn't cost us anything (unless we want to give it an ISBN and whatnot).
<humphreybc> neat. that's good :)
<humphreybc> kevin, do you have a hackagotchi for the planet? and Ilya have you got a blog?
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: http://ilya.us
<humphreybc> try http://planet.interesting.co.nz (subdomain of my site) it should work, but might not have changed for everyone yet
<IlyaHaykinson> but i don't really blog often, nor about ubuntu, usually
<humphreybc> up to you whether you want it aggregated or not. dutchie is hosting the planet on his VPS
<godbyk> humphreybc: I don't have a hackergotchi at the moment.  I can try to find a pic sometime if somebody wants to make one.
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i'll be ok if you skip me. it wouldn't add anything.
<humphreybc> godbyk: we're not really bothering with the whole headless thing
 * IlyaHaykinson also thinks that he'd prefer to concentrate on the manual itself, and not on meta-manual things like blogs :)
<humphreybc> just a square picture of you
<godbyk> gotcha
<humphreybc> fair enough Ilya :)
<humphreybc> this cereal is delicious
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: have you been talking with the people who are Deon's old chapter?
<ianto> humphreybc: Can you send me the translated version of the planet theme when you have the time?
<ianto> I really cna't be boether in redoing it again :)
<humphreybc> sure thing
<humphreybc> what's your email?
<ianto> christopher.swift@linux.com
<humphreybc> it should be in the bzr branch
<humphreybc> but i can email u it
<ianto> Thanks a lot ;)
<ianto> I'll probably end up translating into Welsh as well eventually for the bilingual site
<humphreybc> oh neat
<humphreybc> it didn't take me long
<ianto> http://ubuntu-cym.org will become http://drupal.ianto.ch
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: actually i'm debating what to do. two people volunteered (plus Ryan, who still has chap7 to finish), but one has limited english knowledge and another has limited linux skills
<humphreybc> ah
<IlyaHaykinson> my thinking is to a) assign a little bit of work to each, b) continue searching for a lead for this chapter
<humphreybc> how far thru chapter 7 is ryan?
<IlyaHaykinson> you had said he was almost done?
<humphreybc> i'm not entirely sure
<IlyaHaykinson> in either case, though, even if the first draft is done, it will require too much work to assign both chap4 and 7 to the same person
<humphreybc> indeed
<IlyaHaykinson> i've posted on the technical writing list (my post is still in moderation) asking for help
<IlyaHaykinson> i also recommend approaching flossmanuals.net
<IlyaHaykinson> they have some experienced writers
 * ianto would like to write about something but everything seems to be taken
<IlyaHaykinson> ianto: chapter 4
<IlyaHaykinson> on hardware
<IlyaHaykinson> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware for the outline
<ianto> Could cover keyboards and printers to start off (to key items :p)
<ianto> *two
<IlyaHaykinson> that would actually be great.
<IlyaHaykinson> the input devices portion is probably the shortest -- there's not much difficulty there.
<IlyaHaykinson> the printing one is pretty important, however.
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, i'll send mail to you and the other two people, and hopefully we can come to an email agreement on separation of writing.
<IlyaHaykinson> and i'll continue to look for a fourth person (i think we need at least that many, to make the chapter work)
<IlyaHaykinson> in the interim, i'll assume that my chapter outline is accepted (there were no comments about it), and create the structure files in bazaar, so that everyone has a separate file to work on (fewer conflicts)
<ianto> IlyaHaykinson: I just updated the blueprint with a willing to do this part.
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, thanks.
<ianto> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+spec/chapter4
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, mailed
 * IlyaHaykinson is changing the assignee on the chap4 blueprint to self, until a replacement lead is found
<humphreybc> dutchie: could you please add in another link in the HTML for the planet menu bar: Identi.ca (http://identi.ca/theubuntumanual)
<IlyaHaykinson_> godbyk: any way you can tighten-up enumerate and itemize vertical spacing?
<godbyk> yep
<IlyaHaykinson_> there's quite a bit of space in instruction lists... could probably be reduced by 50%...
<IlyaHaykinson_> thanks
<IlyaHaykinson_> also....
<IlyaHaykinson_> i have a few sets of instructions that start with:
<IlyaHaykinson_> To do something:
<IlyaHaykinson_> then a blank line
<IlyaHaykinson_> then an enumeration, or whatnot
<IlyaHaykinson_> however, due to indentation rules, "To do something:" is indented (since it's the beginning of a paragraph)
<IlyaHaykinson_> this looks very strange
<IlyaHaykinson_> obviously, we could globally disable indentation on non-leading paragraphs.
<IlyaHaykinson_> however, i actually like this indentation on _actual_ paragraphs.
<IlyaHaykinson_> is there a way to disable indentation on a paragraph if its exactly one line?
<godbyk> you could say \noindent at the beginning.
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok. that should solve my problem. thanks!
<godbyk> np.  though if the introductory line isn't really the beginning of a new paragraph, you could just keep it with the previous paragraph.
<IlyaHaykinson_> well, i do want to have it stand out, rather than dangle at the end of the previous paragraph. this basically makes it the introduction to the enumeration, rather than part of the previous copy.
<jmburgess> hey guys
 * IlyaHaykinson_ waves
<jmburgess> how are we all doing tonight
<wolter> hey guys
<jmburgess> hey wolter
<wolter> how is it going jmburgess ?
<jmburgess> good
<jmburgess> up late doing hw
<jmburgess> missing winter break, but whatever
<jmburgess> you?
<wolter> just finished my guitar session
<wolter> now, i'm going to get to work on the manual, polishing chapter 5
<wolter> and maybe later on my personal project
<godbyk> The Ubuntu manual *isn't* a personal project, wolter? :)
<jmburgess> haha
<jmburgess> yeah school has been eating my life so I haven't been able to do much on the manual
<jmburgess> which makes me sad
 * IlyaHaykinson_ just pushed a few revisions, and now has to look forward to documention Evolution, which he's never used before...
<wolter> godbyk, well, it is shared by other people, so its not as personal as my other one :)
<wolter> which welcomes people btw, but at the moment i am the only one in the team
<IlyaHaykinson_> has anyone seen b1ackcr0w here recently?
<wolter> godbyk, could you make a \definition alias to \notecallout[Definition]{...}
<IlyaHaykinson_> seems like he was last on about 8 hrs ago... next time he is in, can someone ping him about Chapter 2?
<IlyaHaykinson_> it's been a while since we've seen a commit in that chapter.
<godbyk> wolter: Yeah, I will do that at some point -- once I get the glossary stuff incorporated in.
<wolter> nice
<IlyaHaykinson_> toshazed is helping with Chap4 as well, woot.
<wolter> humphreybc, i must say i like the blog better now :)
<humphreybc> what's that? my one?
<wolter> humphreybc, yes
<jmburgess> yeah I need to finish up my chapter as well
<IlyaHaykinson_> jmburgess: indeed :)   i find it easier to just write a little bit every day.
<IlyaHaykinson_> rather than big-bang the whole thing out.
<jmburgess> yeah I agree
<jmburgess> I usually type away in between classes or such
<humphreybc> does anyone know how nisshh is going on 7?
<wolter> your name on top of it, with some fancy style
<IlyaHaykinson_> hm, is GFDL 1.1 content compatible with CC-BY-SA 3.0?
<IlyaHaykinson_> crap. it is not.
<IlyaHaykinson_> which means that i cannot use the really wonderful F-Spot guide written by the GNOME team.
<IlyaHaykinson_> maybe i should just email miguel de icaza
<humphreybc> good idea
<IlyaHaykinson_> i asked him on irc. no reply yet, but i don't think he'll allow relicensing under a CC-compatible license.
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, time for me to go sleep.
 * IlyaHaykinson_ just noticed that the Evolution guide he was going to use is _also_ GFDL. argh, argh, argh.
 * IlyaHaykinson_ goes to sleep, defeated by Richard Stallman's license
<thorwil> vish: i agree regarding the name. still waiting to hear from the others, though
<vish> thorwil: yeah... its about time the name is decided ;)
<wolter> hey vish
<wolter> could you revise an icon i'm making?
<thorwil> hi wolter! got my mail where i asked if you're on board?
<wolter> thorwil, hm, haven't read it i guess
<wolter> what do you mean, for the design team?
<wolter> (yes i am)
<wolter> brb
<thorwil> yes
<wolter> well yes, is there any todo list?
<wolter> or something I can start working on?
<wolter> well, let me read the email
<wolter> is it the Ubuntu Manual Cover Design mail?
<thorwil> wolter: "Ubuntu Manual Design Team"
<wolter> ok
<wolter> I don't know where the original went, but I replied to vish's reply
<thorwil> my mails disappear a bit too often
<thorwil> wolter: regarding a todo: audience needs to be discussed on the next meeting. title, too, i guess
<wolter> good
<wolter> net saturday?
<thorwil> yes
<wolter> nice
<thorwil> wolter: you could of course already write down your own thought regarding the exact mission statement / strategy of the manual, the audience, tone, message
<wolter> well, maybe we could make it a littlle earlier? that is, if nobody has a problem with that
<wolter> like, earlier in the week i mean
<wolter> because its still monday
<wolter> oh ok
<wolter> that looks like a nice thing to do
<thorwil> wolter: then we need to understand the current internal layout and font choice so we can later on evaluate if it needs to be tweaked
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-26
<wolter> hey humphreybc
<wolter> you there?
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: ping, email sent.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: just read your email, sounds good. I'll get onto it tomorrow.
<humphreybc> dutchie, ping
<humphreybc> dutchie, you need to add in a cron job on your VPS to update the planet every 15 mins or so
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-27
<dutchie> humphreybc: leave a message after the tone ;)
<dutchie> humphreybc: I am now fast asleep, most likely, and am unlikely to be on IRC for a while. Email is probably your best bet to grab hold of me
<dutchie> humphreybc: these are automated messages, hopefully produced as soon as you come online thanks to the postpone.pl irssi script
<dutchie> humphreybc: pong, done, get a better time zone
<humphreybc> ha!
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: I'm going to start sending emails to authors soon
<humphreybc> My laptop battery charger has given up the ghost... i'm hoping to get another one by friday. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't - it's working at the moment!
<humphreybc> But if I disappear for a few days it's because it's really died and I haven't got another computer/charger
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: gotcha.
<nisshh> hey dutcjie
<nisshh> dutchie
<nisshh> i found an error on the new planet website
<nisshh> a broken link
<nisshh> its the identica link at the top right of the main pagre
<humphreybc> nisshh: how are you going with chapter 7?
<nisshh> just fixing two bugs now
<nisshh> and writing another section  or two
<humphreybc> how far through are you?
<humphreybc> could you commit what you have so far?
<nisshh> no im just updating the wiki
<humphreybc> okay but what about the actual chapter?
<nisshh> ill will commit some stiff in about 15-20 minutes
<nisshh> stuff*
<humphreybc> cool. because we're really behind schedule, i'm going to email all the authors who are behind very soon and tell them to get some results or the chapters will be reassigned to other people
<nisshh> yes ok.
<humphreybc> cool, thanks
<nisshh> ill give you a yell on here once iv committed
<humphreybc> I don't want to sound mean or anything but I've been fairly nice and lenient so far, but now that we're getting to the business end of the project the results are lacking
<humphreybc> The achievements of an organization are the results of the combined effort of each individual.
<nisshh> yea i understand i would have had it done sooner if not for all the hold ups in real life
<nisshh> also i wanted to ask you whether the current chapter 7 is too detailed or not enough detail
<nisshh> iv had comments about both so im unsure which way to go
<nisshh> and by what degree
<humphreybc> i'll have a look now
<humphreybc> I think that's a good level of detail, i'm not sure whether we need a section on "browsing the file system" however. I am aware that I wrote down the original table of contents, but that was just as a rough guide
<humphreybc> perhaps that can be incorporated into "useful commands" - it doesn't take long to tell people about cd mv cp rm commands
<nisshh> good point
<nisshh> oh yea im going to download lucid and put it in virtualbox later too
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> you should try "Test Drive"
<humphreybc> http://launchpad.net/testdrive
<nisshh> whats that?
 * humphreybc just sent an email to the authors and CC'd to the team
<nisshh> oh yea
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: check your inbox, I just sent an email to the authors/team
<godbyk> Ooh, humphreybc's cracking the whip! :-)
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> not on you though kevin!
<humphreybc> you're doing a stellar job
 * godbyk dances
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> shame it can't be said about many of the authors though
<humphreybc> (and yes I know that I haven't been a saint either! I still have to finish chapter 1)
<godbyk> My part's pretty easy, though.  I'm not writing hundreds of lines of text.
<humphreybc> true. But it's possible, I mean just look at IlyaHaykinson's chapter
<humphreybc> he's written a tonne of stuff just by adding a little bit each day
<humphreybc> i mean we have more team members than the flippin' ubuntu docs team now
<humphreybc> ok wait we're a subteam of the ubuntu docs tea
<humphreybc> team*
<humphreybc> so our team members add to their team
<humphreybc> we've practically doubles their number in that way hahaha
<godbyk> wow
<humphreybc> yeah but it's still only the same 4 or 5 people uploading to the branch
<humphreybc> you, me, wolter, Ilya, joe and jamin every now and then
<nisshh> *caugh* and me sometimes
<humphreybc> the translations are going well but we've got a bottleneck now where a lot of translators are waiting on more content from the authors. =S
<humphreybc> nisshh are you keeping stuff locally before committing?
<nisshh> yes im about to push some stuff now
<humphreybc> oh great
<nisshh> its not much just yet but theres more to come later
<humphreybc> that's good. will you have it completed by alpha? (remember, rough draft is all that's required for alpha)
<humphreybc> oh and do you have a blog too?
<nisshh> yes itll be done by alpha easily and no i dont have a blog
<humphreybc> okay sweet :)
<godbyk> Well, this is pathetic: reddit is offline and I'm not quite sure what to do with myself.
<godbyk> I may have to actually do something constructive. :-/
<humphreybc> haha
<nisshh> lol
<godbyk> I really should start working on my dissertation one of these days..
<godbyk> Maybe I'll clean up my office.
<godbyk> (Gah! See what I've been reduced to?!)
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> ok iv pushed my changes
<humphreybc> nisshh: cool
<nisshh> just give it a sec to update on LP
<humphreybc> everyone, I've just replied to Thorsten's email about a whole bunch of design/style stuff. I CC'd to the list, as always. I'd appreciate some discussion from the team and feedback on mine (and his) suggestions
<nisshh> ok
<humphreybc> cool, mind if i give some feedback?
<nisshh> nope go for it
<humphreybc> okay so it's mainly niggly stuff
<humphreybc> instead of using linux, use "Ubuntu"
<humphreybc> we're trying to de-associate Linux and Ubuntu
<humphreybc> Linux has many bad connotations
<humphreybc> see the style guide for more info on the reasoning behind that
<nisshh> also in LP fix committed is when the bugfix in in the main branch and fix released is when alpha release actually comes around
<humphreybc> ahh righto
<nisshh> ok good points
<nisshh> any feedback on changes i just made
<humphreybc> Windows should probably have a capital W, and is bash uppercase or all lowercase? I'm fairly sure it's lowercase... not 100% sure though
<nisshh> ?
<humphreybc> i don't think so no
<humphreybc> also it might be worth adding in "temporarily" to this sentence: "By using sudo, you can (temporarily) borrow these privilages...
<humphreybc> and it might pay to mention the 15 minute sudo timer
<nisshh> yes i thought of that but havent decided where to put it on yet
<humphreybc> although that might be moving slightly into the security chapter
<nisshh> in sorry
<nisshh> is there a sudo section in the security chapter?
<nisshh> because there should be
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> i don't think so
<humphreybc> also just explain that when the computer wants root privileges (ie, installing software etc) it will prompt you for your user password. Reiterate that this is _for the best_ otherwise people will (and do) liken it to Vista's UAC
<nisshh> yes ok.
<IlyaHaykinson_> maybe instead of root we can say whatever Ubuntu says?
<humphreybc> so yeah, I think most of it is just making sure the user fully understands the permissions/sudo system in Ubuntu, what it means for them, and how it protects their system
<humphreybc> but other than that, cool
<humphreybc> keep up the good work :)
<nisshh> cheers im gonna make some more changes now
<humphreybc> and it's probably better to commit anything you change instead of keeping it locally, that way we don't freak out when we see no progress being made when actually you've got it all on your computer :D
<humphreybc> regarding the niggly things, technically they don't matter at the moment because it's the editors job to pick them up. And alpha is supposed to be just a draft. *But* I am a bit of a perfectionist, so I'm likely to pick up stuff like that
<IlyaHaykinson_> nisshh: re your note at the bottom -- Currently: grep, uname, lspci, ifconfig and wget
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think some of these are too obscure for a new user guide
<nisshh> which ones?
<IlyaHaykinson_> ifconfig (that's not even recommended anymore, you're supposed to use "ip addr list" i think)
<IlyaHaykinson_> uname
<IlyaHaykinson_> wget
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think we need to teach people things like "ls" and "cd" and "mv" and "df" an d"ps"
<IlyaHaykinson_> like totally elementary commands :)
<nisshh> yes humphreybc and me were just talking abou that
<IlyaHaykinson_> like see http://fosswire.com/post/2007/8/unixlinux-command-cheat-sheet/
<IlyaHaykinson_> things that are on a cheat-sheet or otherwise show up in short new user references are the best, in my opinion
<nisshh> also pwd should be in there i think too
<IlyaHaykinson_> yeah, those were just examples
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think lspci doesn't really belong here.
<nisshh> ok
<IlyaHaykinson_> maybe in some troubleshooting chapter or whatever, and even then only maybe :)
<nisshh> ill change that
<IlyaHaykinson_> yeah. assume you're teaching this to a grandparent.
<nisshh> yep
<IlyaHaykinson_> sweet
<IlyaHaykinson_> and thx for making progress. i totally appreciate this!
<IlyaHaykinson_> also, i actually highly recommend putting up a wiki page with the chapter outline
<IlyaHaykinson_> to the subsection level
<IlyaHaykinson_> i find it much easier to organize thoughts that way, and also increase visibility of the chapter before it's written
<nisshh> no problem
<nisshh> i would have done so sooner but iv been extremely busy lately
<nisshh> but not so much now
<IlyaHaykinson_> cool!
<nisshh> yea, i havent even had time to work on my own project
<IlyaHaykinson_> Does anyone know if there's a way for people who don't know bazaar to contribute, that's not "email documents to Ilya"?
<IlyaHaykinson_> i've got a few writers who are just putting things together in open office...
<IlyaHaykinson_> cause they don't feel familiar enough with bazaar...
<humphreybc> have you tried bzr-gtk?
<nisshh> hmm thats a problem
<humphreybc> Jamin has made a guide for it
<humphreybc> and he was thinking using Lernid to teach new authors how to use it (he's got a slideshow etc all set up)
<humphreybc> I had a chat to Jono Bacon and all we'd have to do was create our own "event"
<humphreybc> perhaps "Ubuntu Manual Learning Day?"
<nisshh> they dont want to learn how this all works?
<IlyaHaykinson_> humphreybc: hm, a slideshow etc may be nice.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson perhaps they could write it in openoffice/plain text and we could port it across to LaTeX in the meantime.
<IlyaHaykinson_> yeha, that's what i was offering.
<nisshh> wow, you just said what i was going to say
<IlyaHaykinson_> but the guy wants to edit/post his own things
<humphreybc> bzr isn't hard
<IlyaHaykinson_> instead of routing it through me
<humphreybc> bzr-gtk is even easier
<humphreybc> talk to jamin about it, he can give you the slides etc on how to use bzr-gtk
<nisshh> yea but they still have to learn latex and setup ssh and so on
<IlyaHaykinson_> cool.
<humphreybc> true
<humphreybc> ssh?
<humphreybc> what for?
<nisshh> too much for a noob to handle
<IlyaHaykinson_> or, better yet... i can offer to him to edit on some wiki subpage
<humphreybc> We have some fairly new users on the team at the moment and they're doing okay.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson that's a better idea
<nisshh> bzr uses a protocol called bzr+ssh to push and pull to LP
<humphreybc> After alpha we can hold a Learning day and get some of the main team members to hold sessions in lernid on stuff like style, latex code, editing, bzr etc
<humphreybc> nisshh: but the end user doesn't need to know that? I don't even know that or use anything to do with ssh for bzr
<nisshh> cool ill help out with that
<humphreybc> but right now we really need to get the content drafted
<nisshh> hehe, do you have an ssh key on LP?
<IlyaHaykinson_> ok, wiki it is for now.
<nisshh> yep i agree
<humphreybc> oh nisshh forgot about ssh keys
<humphreybc> i set mine up ages ago
<nisshh> yea thats what i was refferring too
<nisshh> same but for a new user its a complex task
<humphreybc> that is true
<humphreybc> well after alpha we might have a bit more time to think about teaching new and current contributors
<humphreybc> especially since godbyk is doing so much work on latex that wasn't scheduled till beta!
<humphreybc> all praise godbyk
<godbyk> heh
<IlyaHaykinson_> is there a simple way to get a version of Lucid up in a virtual environment right now?
<nisshh> oh, godbyk, your my hero!
<IlyaHaykinson_> i have one that i manually installed, but i meant even simpler than that?
<nisshh> not really
<humphreybc> test drive!
<humphreybc> http://launchpad.net/testdrive
<IlyaHaykinson_> er, but that's for people who already have ubuntu?
<nisshh> testdrive is only available IN lucid
<IlyaHaykinson_> i meant more like for ppl on windows or macos...
<nisshh> not when you first install it
<nisshh> no one say wubi
<nisshh> or ill virtually kick you
<nisshh> in the face...
<IlyaHaykinson_> *sigh* ok, i think i'll just patch up my virtualbox, zip it up, and give it to the writer in question
<nisshh> cant he just download and run the iso through VB
<nisshh> >
<nisshh> ?
<nisshh> i pushed some more changes to LP too
<IlyaHaykinson_> nisshh: i'm hoping to simplify things for her.
<IlyaHaykinson_> and any other authors who may be good at technical writing, but not as good at linux
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> yeah just export your vbox install, burn it to a DVD and wallah
<nisshh> yea ok
<humphreybc> I could ask for help in the forums or on omgubuntu.co.uk but i don't really want to give the impression to the public that we're struggling
<nisshh> no you dont
<nisshh> that would be bad
<humphreybc> exackery
<nisshh> lol, is that a word?
<IlyaHaykinson_> i think we don't need to ask for help in a "we're struggling" way, but instead more like "calling ubuntu users with writing experience to join the team" type of a thing
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> well I can talk to Joey from omgubuntu and ask him to do a wee blog
<nisshh> yea, anyway im going to go eat something, and polish my car all probably push some more stuff to LP later tonight, cyas.
<humphreybc> martin can post a blog on Planet Ubuntu if I ask him
<humphreybc> polish your car? nice.
<nisshh> yes i just painted it
<humphreybc> oh wow, nice
<humphreybc> what sort of car?
<nisshh> corolla
<nisshh> toyota
<humphreybc> is it awesome?
<nisshh> totally!
<humphreybc> haha
<nisshh> hehe cyas then.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson_ :
<humphreybc> doctormo: Well no, I mean start by getting your people to write a blog post every day, get them to write about something that could go into their chapter and try and take an existing piece of writing and improve on it.
<humphreybc> (20:52:10) humphreybc: but some more experienced authors would be a godsend
<humphreybc> (20:52:39) doctormo: I can tell you now that there are no such people.
<humphreybc> (20:53:03) doctormo: No technical writers who are willing to jump into writing. Either that or their already all in the docs team.
<humphreybc> (20:53:13) doctormo: I know because learning team has been fishing for a while now.
<humphreybc> blog posts sound like a good idea
<humphreybc> to the planet
<humphreybc> then we can point newbies to the planet
<humphreybc> for the meantime anyway
<IlyaHaykinson_> blog posts are nice...
<IlyaHaykinson_> but i think actual chapter writing takes priority over getting ppl to set up blogs, adding them to the planet, etc.
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> but for those that already have blogs and the planet
<humphreybc> me, dutchie, you?
<humphreybc> etc
<humphreybc> we could do that
<IlyaHaykinson_> true.
<thorwil> good morning! :)
<humphreybc> hi thorwil, i sent you an email recently
<thorwil> humphreybc: just read it
<humphreybc> cool beans
<thorwil> humphreybc: would you be so kind and announce your decision regarding the design team on the list?
<humphreybc> yup i can do that
<IlyaHaykinson_> argh, i killed my vbox install of lucid. :(
<humphreybc> damn how'd you manage that?
<thorwil> humphreybc: i might send a mail regarding audience and so on to the list, and i think this will work better after an introduction
<humphreybc> sure
<IlyaHaykinson_> ah, wait. didn't kill it. just needed a hard reset
<humphreybc> thorwil: current team members?
<humphreybc> (of the design team)
<humphreybc> and what's your full name thorwil?
<thorwil> humphreybc: vish and wolter said yes, no reply from kolorguild (David Nel), yet
<thorwil> humphreybc: Thorsten Wilms
<humphreybc> thorwil: email sent
<thorwil> ty!
<thorwil> humphreybc: you have a one author per chapter policy?
<humphreybc> nope
 * thorwil read Crunch time
<humphreybc> I don't think I said one author per chapter
<thorwil> no, you didn't. that's why i asked ;)
<humphreybc> gotcha
<nisshh> nisshh is back and hes awesome!
<nisshh> humphreybc: can you explain to me what this new planet thing is on your website, i dont really get what it does.
<IlyaHaykinson_> virtualbox exports as .vmdk files?
<IlyaHaykinson_> isn't that a vmware format?
<humphreybc> nisshh: you know planet ubuntu right?
<nisshh> yes
<humphreybc> nisshh: do you play lacrosse by any chance?
<nisshh> i have before
<humphreybc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_McNish
<humphreybc> anyway, so Planet Ubuntu Manual is just our own version of Planet Ubuntu
<humphreybc> it's hosted on dutchie's VPS and we're using my domain name
<nisshh> right so you mean it sort of combines all those planet blogs together?
<humphreybc> nope it just aggregates the blogs of a few of the manual people, like myself, dutchie, godbky etc
<humphreybc> you can see the list of people on the right
<humphreybc> that's why I asked if you had a blog
<humphreybc> brb getting junk food
<nisshh> kk
<nisshh> so all the posts at that domain name are from all the aggregated blogs?
<humphreybc> yep
<nisshh> are ok
<nisshh> ah
<nisshh> now i get it
<om26er> How can I help ubuntu manual project
<thorwil> hi om26er. you might want to have a look at the "Contributions" section at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<om26er> thanx thorwil
<thorwil> where do i get ccicons.sty from?
<thorwil> i found a ccicons package, but no .sty in there
<thorwil> godbyk: hi! ^ ?
<godbyk> thorwil: Hey.
<godbyk> thorwil: The package is on the bzr repository already in the pkgs dir.
<godbyk> if you cd to the pkgs dir, you can run ./install-pkgs.sh and it'll take care if it for ya.
<thorwil> godbyk: ah, thanks. you might want to add that to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Help
<godbyk> thorwil: Ah, will do.
<thorwil> godbyk: afaik latex offers no help to achieve grid alignment? (i mean all baselines of all text being on the same heights on every page)
<godbyk> thorwil: Ugh.. LaTeX at its core is rather anti-grid.  But when I get around to designing the layout, it'll be semi-grid-based.
<godbyk> (LaTeX has this concept of 'glue', which allows white space to stretch and shrink to best fit the page.)
<thorwil> sounds scary
<godbyk> It's pretty handy when you're using lots of mathematics and whatnot, but not so great when you're trying to typeset a non-math book on a grid.
<godbyk> I'm messing around with translations at the moment..
<godbyk> I think they're gonna be a bit of a pain.
<godbyk> Each language may have its own set of fonts.
<thorwil> godbyk: there seem to be 2 tones of red, "Ubuntu Philosophy" is darker than "The Ubuntu Promise"
<godbyk> Each of the section levels is a different color, and the red used to highlight the user input (for the time being) may also be a different shade.
<godbyk> I didn't pick the colors. That was before my time.
<godbyk> They will probably change/disappear when I get around to redesigning the thing.
<thorwil> godbyk: hope so. this rather subtle color differences of items that are far away from each other look like a mistake
<godbyk> Yeah, I'm not sure where the colors originated.
<godbyk> They may have been randomly selected.
<thorwil> godbyk: the switch from serif for 1st level to sans and back to serifs for text seems a bit odd
<godbyk> yeah, selecting fonts is currently on the top of my list.
<godbyk> I'm trying to find some great fonts that are open and that support the languages we're translating to.
<thorwil> godbyk: guess that's limiting enough, so i will leave that to you ;)
<godbyk> gee, thanks!
<godbyk> ;-)
<godbyk> it's quite a challenge, unfortunately.
<godbyk> most fonts seem to target only one or two scripts.
<godbyk> so we'll probably have different fonts for different languages.
<thorwil> fun
<godbyk> loads
<godbyk> they have to be open because if they're not, then only authors who have those fonts will be able to compile the pdf.
<thorwil> godbyk: i'd try to make the lowest level headline have the same size as body text (if that isn't already the case)
<thorwil> given color and spacing, you don't even need bold there
<godbyk> yeah, that'll all change after I've found the typefaces.
<thorwil> godbyk: where do i have to look for the margins (including those for margin notes)?
<thorwil> godbyk: is the current page layout based on even divisions or proportions?
<godbyk> In the ubuntu-manual.cls file, look for the \geometry commands.
<godbyk> thorwil: Yes, but the letter and A4 paper sizes are using completely different proportions for the margins.
<godbyk> (And I'm not fond of either at the moment.)
<godbyk> That'll be changing too.
<godbyk> Basically, everything's up for redesign. :-)
<thorwil> godbyk: good. i'd choose one system and apply it to both letter and a4
<godbyk> Who was it that was going to print the title page a while back?  Did they ever report what their printer's margins were?
<godbyk> We should probably figure out what those margins generally are so we make sure all our material falls inside them.
<godbyk> (If we're expecting people to print this on their own printers.)
<thorwil> godbyk: i think it's between 4 and 10 mm, but yeah, i'll have a look f i find some official numbers
<thorwil> godbyk: what's marginparsep?
<godbyk> That's the horizontal space between the margin notes and the main body text.
<godbyk> Well, I'm off to bed.  I'll probably be back on in 8-9 hours.
<maxolase1squad> Where is the current download?  I don't see it in the wiki.
<ianto> Anyone here?
<ianto> I'm writing for my chapter section and I'm wonder if it is possible to write a hyperlink to a previous section in the Installation chapter or would this break the formatting of the book?
<sebsebseb>  
<dutchie> ianto: use the \chaplink or \ref commands
<pererik87> Full disks mean no more PPAs, and no more uploads to PPAs. Weâd like to add some more disks, but we canât actually do that soon enough for a bunch of complicated reasons.
<pererik87> Instead, weâve decided that weâre going to remove all of the source files for any uploads that are:
<pererik87> in PPAs
<pererik87> not published, that is, deleted or superseded
<pererik87> have been not published for over seven days
<pererik87> Note that we already delete the binaries for such uploads.
<pererik87> We are going to delete these old files this Wednesday, January 27th. Weâre really sorry that we are announcing it so close to the actual event â we know itâs a hassle.
<pererik87> qquote: launchpad
 * dutchie blinks
<dutchie> pererik87: was that deliberate?
<pererik87> wrong window:P
<dutchie> thought as much
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-28
<dutchie> humphreybc: get my "answering machine" messages?
<humphreybc> sure did
<dutchie> also, I fixed the planet
<humphreybc> yup saw that, sweet as
<humphreybc> what's the new branch dutchie?
<humphreybc> testing translations?
<dutchie> I set up auto translation exports
<dutchie> not going to blat them straight into the main branch until I've tested things out
<humphreybc> haha fair enough, good thinking
<humphreybc> so they're auto exports?
<dutchie> yep
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> how'd you do that?
<dutchie> set the launchpad "auto export branch"
<humphreybc> ah
<dutchie> almost tempted to try setting a bzr pre-commit hook to update the translations
<dutchie> but I'm busy writing now :)
<godbyk> dutchie: Are you the translations guy?
<godbyk> I've been playing with them (on the LaTeX side).
<dutchie> godbyk: ah yes?
<godbyk> Yeah, I've updated the Makefile to build and compile the translated manual.
<godbyk> And that generally works..
<godbyk> But now I have to find some typefaces that support all the scripts/languages we're translating to.
<godbyk> That's proving to be more difficult.
 * dutchie looks into bzr hooks to update the pot file on each commit
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: Thomas Cantera has signed on to write chapter 2
<godbyk> when the translators get an updated file, does it show the diff so they can see what changed? or are they continuously retranslating the same stuff repeatedly?
<dutchie> godbyk: I think LP is intelligent enough not to translate the same thing over and over
<godbyk> cool.  was just curious.
<humphreybc> godbyk: how do I do a copyright symbol?
<humphreybc> (For windows)
<dutchie> do you really need to?
<humphreybc> it's the first time we mention it i think
<humphreybc> in the prologue
<dutchie> I thought it was enough to credit it somewhere
<humphreybc> okay
<dutchie> IANAL etc etc
<humphreybc> well i suppose we can figure that out down the track
<godbyk> humphreybc: \textcopyright{}, I think will do it.
<godbyk> There's one on the copyright page (in frontmatter/copyright.tex, I think)
<godbyk> Oh, you mean a registered trademark symbol or somesuch instead, I think.
<godbyk> didn't we decide not to use those?
<humphreybc> i think so
<humphreybc> offtopic, what's the "version 1.0" on the copyright page for?
<godbyk> humphreybc: Erm.. I think that was left over from the copy/paste from another book I worked on.
<humphreybc> and is it possible to make the bottom margin a bit smaller? we could probably save a tonne of pages that way
<humphreybc> okay i'll fix up the copyright thing now
<godbyk> humphreybc: yeah, yeah.. the whole design is getting a facelift. :-)
<humphreybc> ho?
<humphreybc> oh*?
<godbyk> yep.
<humphreybc> cool what's changing?
<godbyk> pretty much everything will be redone so it works better with whatever page sizes and fonts we end up using, etc.
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> will it save some file size?
<godbyk> everything that's there now is pretty much just placeholder until I get time to do it right.
<godbyk> I don't know how it'll affect the file size.
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> i've got a question
<humphreybc> with PDFs
<godbyk> fire away
<humphreybc> would there be a difference in file size if you had the same amount of content squeezed into less pages, rather than more pages but the same content?
<humphreybc> like would adjusting the margins and font size, therefore reducing page count save file size?
<godbyk> Well, there's a little overhead for a new page, but I don't think it'd matter too much.  Just guessing, though.
<godbyk> Probably a little bit.
 * dutchie wonders if it's worth pointing out that it should be "fewer pages"
<godbyk> But compared to loading the PDF with screenshots and embedding fonts, I don't think it'll matter much.
<humphreybc> okay. well every kilobyte counts
<godbyk> Once we have all the content, we can see about optimizing the PDFs for size.
<humphreybc> swell
<humphreybc> do you know of any comparable documents on the net, examples etc... that have about 80 pages with screenshots?
<humphreybc> so that we can get a rough idea of their size
<godbyk> Hmm.. not right off.
<humphreybc> okay well if you come across something similar to ours, then see what the file size is
<humphreybc> the "makeuseof.com" Karmic bible has 52 pages, a fair amount of screenshots and it's 1.4mb
<humphreybc> I think as long as we're under 2mb we should be okay. I'll talk to Jorge Castro, who packages up the example content for Ubuntu, and see what he says. He told me a couple of weeks ago that he could get rid of a lot of crap that's currently example content and put our manual in place
<godbyk> What are the limits we're allowed?
<godbyk> The manual as it stands now is ~500K.
<humphreybc> there's no limits on the size
<humphreybc> but the smaller it is, the more chance we have of being included on the CD
<godbyk> I see.
<humphreybc> for example, pitivi is an entire program and it's only 2.5mb
<godbyk> Btw, dealing with the translations is opening up whole new territory for me with LaTeX.
<humphreybc> heh well you can add that to your resume :P
<godbyk> Handily, it's forcing me to learn some things I hadn't had an excuse to learn before. :-)
<humphreybc> but yeah, file size is paramount if we want to get it on the CD
<humphreybc> we might have to pull some tricks like the US military had to do to get a B-52 to take off from a carrier in WW2
<godbyk> I think we'll have to wait until we have more of the content (and screenshots) in before we can start looking to optimize for file size.
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> it's just something to be aware of
<humphreybc> anyway i'm going to grab something to eat
<godbyk> Sure.  When are we starting to collect the screenshots?
<humphreybc> um
<humphreybc> not sure, probably about beta
<humphreybc> we can't take too many too soon because Lucid is still in alpha
<humphreybc> it'll definitely be a crazy rush for us to get screenshots in so many languages in such a short time
<humphreybc> that will be the real test :S
<humphreybc> good times :)
<godbyk> I can imagine!
<dutchie> we'll also need to freeze writing some time before actual release to allow translations to catch up
<humphreybc> totally
<humphreybc> around beta i'd say
<humphreybc> that's why we really need to get the main content done asap
<humphreybc> allow fine tuning and editing to take place between alpha - beta
<humphreybc> then freeze writing at beta, allow translations to catch up, and start sourcing screenshots
<humphreybc> could someone have a look at the lucid release schedule and see what version of Lucid will be out at our beta?
<wolter> hey humphreybc
<wolter> sorry for the mail :S
<wolter> is that in the mail you wrote "You are receiving this mail because (...)"
<humphreybc> no worries wolter, perhaps i should have made it clearer that I was CC'ing it to everyone
<wolter> no worries ben :)
<humphreybc> I was just thinking, if we're going to get on the CD, our manual will only be the english version - we'll have to have a page very near the start, possibly even before the title page, that says "To get this manual in your own language, visit... " and then translate that in 30 languages
<humphreybc> We'll also have to have each language PDF version available in the repositories... so package names like ubuntu-manual-fr etc
<wolter> haha
<humphreybc> either that or we just have the source in the repos, and then when installing it picks up what language they're using, and then builds the correct version
<wolter> sounds like easy >> "and then translate in 30 languages"
<humphreybc> but that would require a lot of dependencies. thoughts?
<humphreybc> of course the example content at present is only in english
<wolter> I think that, as each version of ubuntu has its own per-language version, I think it would be no problem shipping the manual in the cd already built
<wolter> but, there is one thing:
<wolter> if the manual were to come pre-installed, then the manual should be downloadable from ubuntu official repos
<humphreybc> i think they only build one version of the CD, but include many locales and you can choose your language
<wolter> ahh
<wolter> yes thats true...
<humphreybc> we can't include all of the ubuntu manual locales, there wouldn't be enough space
<wolter> ugh.. yes indeed, that sounded so much like windows
<humphreybc> so what do we do?
<godbyk> If they're to get it from the repository, it may be just as easy to get it from a nice url (like http://ubuntu-manua.org/)
<godbyk> since both require internet access anyway.
<godbyk> and the 'download it from the web' step is already familiar to more people than 'get it from this repository thing that we haven't explained yet'
<godbyk> Also, Ubuntu should just move to DVDs already. :-)
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> well they haven't moved to DVDs yet so unfortunately we have to work with what we've got
<humphreybc> so, let's say that one version is included as example content
<humphreybc> that would be the english version
<godbyk> We could provide links to the versions in other languages that download it from the web.
<humphreybc> and for people who set up their computer with another language, they're going to wonder why they still have a manual that's in english when everything else is in their own language
<godbyk> Or maybe a script that snags the right one during install?
<humphreybc> but what if they're installing offline?
<pererik87> english one with links inside
<humphreybc> perhaps a script that downloads the right one during install, and if they don't have internet access, then it defaults to the english one
<pererik87> or what he said
<godbyk> pererik87: That's a good idea. We can have hyperlinks to download their language version.
<humphreybc> also, if we're going to have it in the repositories/software center... you can't really have 30+ results when you type "ubuntu manual" into the software center search field
<wolter> humphreybc, don't they ship desktop help in all languages then?
<pererik87> i think all ideas combined
<humphreybc> wolter I think they do yes
<wolter> maybe we could code a small app that would build the manual
<wolter> from source
<wolter> like in the desktop, "Get Ubuntu Manual"
<wolter> or something
<humphreybc> You guys may have heard about that new software center feature where you are able to choose "extras" to install for packages?
<wolter> i don't know, that could be discussed later
<humphreybc> wolter, too many dependencies,... latex etc
<wolter> ah.. true
<wolter> i just thought about what you said earlier
<wolter> maybe just a download link?
<humphreybc> we could just list the Ubuntu Manual as one entry in the software center, and then in the extras drop down box they can choose what language to install... i'd have to talk to the SC guys about that though.
<wolter> or a download link in the ubuntu download page.
<godbyk> []whoops! closed the wrong window.
<pererik87> script autodetects and downloads for right language. this function is already there for language files. And links inside for different languages.
<humphreybc> I think it has to be more automated than just a download link
<humphreybc> okay so a script sounds good
<humphreybc> and if we can utilize this "extras" thing in the SC then we can just have one listing for the manual, and they can choose what language to install
<humphreybc> I think multiple languages is a real selling point for us, I don't believe any similar documentation can boast that it's available in 30+ languages.
<humphreybc> (apart from ubuntu docs)
<humphreybc> by similar i mean the official ubuntu book, the karmic bible, Keir Thomas' Ubuntu pocket guide etc
<wolter> 'xactly
 * godbyk is just thinking how much easier this'll be for the 10.10 release.  <sigh>
<pererik87> packet manager also works by language. if it was added to the repostory. the language would update itself on first update
<godbyk> what's packet manager?
<pererik87> software center if you like thet better
<wolter> hahah
<wolter> i think he wanted you to say "package" manager
<godbyk> ah! gotcha.
<pererik87> haha im not native in english, and typing fast isnt helping
<godbyk> I was trying to figure out who would want to manage individual network packets. :-)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> godbyk: heh... yes time is short... but that's okay
<humphreybc> we will survive
 * humphreybc sings
<godbyk> It'll be a lot easier the next time because all of this framework stuff will be done.
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> getting it sorted for 10.10 will be a breeze after this
<humphreybc> i can work on other projects! I will have a life! yay!
<wolter> haha
<wolter> (toolshed!) wooow!
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> indeed
<humphreybc> right i'm going to go and sit outside in the sun, read my book and eat something
<humphreybc> back later
<godbyk> see ya
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: re Thomas Cantera signing up for chapter 2... very nice.
<humphreybc> for anyone having difficulty explaining bzr, I suggest they check out Ground Control by Martin Owens
<humphreybc> he just released beta version today
<humphreybc> i'm just testing it out at the moment
<humphreybc> http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/ground-control-demonstration/
<humphreybc> is anyone in here at the moment?
<humphreybc> ping godbyk, IlyaHaykinson, jmburgess
<godbyk> I'm here.
<humphreybc> could you do me a quick favour, make a tiny change and push it
<humphreybc> i just want to test how ground control handles pulling
<humphreybc> before i recommend it to the rest of the team
<humphreybc> I changed the "P" in project on the first line of the readme to "p"
<humphreybc> perhaps just change it back to uppercase and push
<godbyk> sure
<godbyk> one sec
<humphreybc> cool
<godbyk> humphreybc: okay.
<godbyk> I changed some spacing in the readme and pushed.
<humphreybc> neat
<humphreybc> yeah ground control is really nice
<humphreybc> should make it easy for new contributors to submit things
<humphreybc> i'm not sure how it pulls though... i'll have to talk to martin about it
<godbyk> cool.  I'll have to check it out.
<humphreybc> what's up with this btw? https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-bengali-manual
<humphreybc> i might make a short video tomorrow demonstrating bzr
<thorwil> humphreybc: hi! you should really do something about quoting in your email client
<humphreybc> lol how do you mean? I use gmail
<thorwil> humphreybc: well, there's nothing that distinguishes quotes from your replies
<humphreybc> oh okay, I didn't know
<humphreybc> what client are you using
<humphreybc> ?
<thorwil> humphreybc: evolution
<thorwil> humphreybc: the standard is > on the left of each quoted line
<humphreybc> gmail probably has a quoting feature but i've never used it
<thorwil> humphreybc: i'm rather sure i saw correct quotes in emails from people using gmail
<godbyk> humphreybc: Are you using plain text or rich text in gmail?  The plain text setting adds the > prefix for quoted lines.  not sure what the rich text version does.
<humphreybc> rich text
<humphreybc> rich text looks like it indents and adds a vertical rule next to the quote
<humphreybc> i'm looking into google labs
<thorwil> humphreybc: i looked into the html version of your last mail. no indent or anything else there either
<humphreybc> I found a "Quote selected text" lab thing
<thorwil> sometimes one could think the gmail makers never used mailing lists
<humphreybc> hmm, maybe it's just evolution not liking gmail's rich text quoting
<humphreybc> Usually if I quote something in chunks I'll italicize what i'm quoting and use quotation marks around it.
<humphreybc> (as well as it gets indented for rich text, and for other gmail users, it appears as purple font)
<humphreybc> thorwil: do you have a blog?
<thorwil> humphreybc: i configured it to default to plain text. actually, there is indention in the html version, but not for the quote you placed on the top (manually i guess)
<humphreybc> ah okay, sorry
<thorwil> there are no italics
<thorwil> humphreybc: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> dutchie: could you add this feed to the planet? ^^
<humphreybc> thorwil: this is what I myself and other gmail users see: http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/quote.png
<thorwil> humphreybc: could well be that i don't blog about the manual, or only once after this version is done
<humphreybc> your call whether you want to be on the planet or not
<thorwil> humphreybc: no idea why the color don't appear in the html. anyway, this doesn't degrade gracefully, so better use >
<godbyk> humphreybc: With the most recent email you sent, I just see italicized text for quotes.  (I'm using gmail.)
<humphreybc> righto
<thorwil> humphreybc: i wouldn't mind, if you have no issue with a lack of posts that are directly relevant ;)
<humphreybc> go for it
<thorwil> dutchie: so yes, please :)
<thorwil> anyone seen kolorguild lately?
<humphreybc> thorwil: refresh that link I gave you and you'll see another example of gmail quoting
<humphreybc> nope
<humphreybc> a few of the team members have disappeared off the planet
<thorwil> that's the quoting style i mean
<humphreybc> also thorwil if you have style/design stuff which you'd like to discuss at the meeting, could you put it on the meeting agenda? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<godbyk> humphreybc: the second quoting style is nicer.
<thorwil> humphreybc: will do so in a moment
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> I think it will be good for you to have your blog on the planet, and any style team announcements or decisions and proposals can be announced there
 * vish wonders... where is this manual planet blog?
<vish> humphreybc: you neednt italicize the quoted text
<humphreybc> vish: planet.interesting.co.nz
<vish> i think thats where stuff gets messed up ;)
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> anyone know how to use memoserv on IRC?
<godbyk> Sure: /msg memoserv help
<godbyk> :-)
<om26er> how can I help the ubuntu manual project.
<vish> om26er: have a look at > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual#Contributions
<dutchie> hah, just missed him
<dutchie> thorwil: you have been added :)
<thorwil> ty!
<dutchie> do you want a photo to go with your feed items?
<thorwil> dutchie: nope
<dutchie> no problem
<dutchie> that's actually easier for me :)
<thorwil> vish: got something to add/change about the agenda? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
 * vish checks
<vish> seriously o.0 > " New to Ubuntu (10.04)? Read this!! "
<thorwil> vish: i just added all the proposals ;)
<thorwil> vish: an awful one can still get people to think
<vish> the other one which wont work is > "Ubuntu (10.04): A Beginners Guide "
<thorwil> vish: why? (will you be present on the meeting?)
<vish> ^that plain wrong! its meaning the "Ubuntu" is a beginners guide :/
 * vish will try to be present
<vish> thorwil: the list is for "title" or for "catch phrases" ?
<thorwil> vish: title and optionally also sub-title
<thorwil> vish: true, it should rather be A Beginner's Guide to Ubuntu
<vish> yeah...
<thorwil> edited
<thorwil> godbyk, vish: started to work on an A4 layout template: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/download/head%3A/layout_a4.svg-20100128134918-yenbpm0zvsr3vg5l-1/layout_a4.svg
 * thorwil goes to work in the garden
<koogee> hi, i'm having trouble with compiling the manual... following instructions on the wiki the 'make' process errors out...any help?
<thorwil> koogee: chances that someone can help you increase if you provide the error message
<koogee> its a lengthy log...how can i post the entire thing here...
<thorwil> koogee: use a pastebin
<thorwil> koogee: e.g. http://pastebin.com/
<koogee> http://pastebin.com/m160f387d
<thorwil> koogee: i guess that's a matter for godbyk, who might be around in a few hours (not sure what his timezone is)
<koogee> okay...thanks for your help anyways...
<koogee> http://pastebin.com/m160f387d
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-29
 * humphreybc has just finished editing a bzr "howto" video
<pleia2> humphreybc: have you seen ground control?
<humphreybc> sure have
<humphreybc> i'm helping martin out with it
<pleia2> cool cool :)
<humphreybc> i'm going to make a video of that soon
<pleia2> excellent
<humphreybc> i really need a proper microphone because my in built laptop one is crap
<humphreybc> I think i'll go into town tomorrow and buy a proper microphone then I'll record a ground control demonstration
<godbyk> Well, this is a bit vexing:
<godbyk> To handle translations in all the languages we want, the best solution is to use XeLaTeX and the polyglossia package (successor to babel).
<godbyk> Unfortunately, this requires a newer version of XeLaTeX than what Ubuntu currently ships with.
<godbyk> I think what I'll do is design the .cls file to handle two case: 1. the standard English case which can be compiled with pdfLaTeX (as it is now), and 2. a version for all the translations that compiles with XeLaTeX.
<godbyk> That way authors can continue to write the English text using the Ubuntu versions of pdfLaTeX, and people who want to compile the translations can jump through the extra hoops up installing the latest version of XeLaTeX.
<godbyk> Thoughts?
<humphreybc> Sounds like a good workaround
<godbyk> Gah.. now I'm trying to merge the main branch and mine. (learning bzr on the fly)
<humphreybc> heh
 * humphreybc for anyone new to the project that doesn't know how to use bzr, point them at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2VLcBFqBE
<humphreybc> That is, until I make a new video using Ground Control
<humphreybc> (which will happen in the next day or so when I buy a proper microphone)
<godbyk> I hope that merge didn't break anything.  Can you test it for me, humphreybc?
<humphreybc> sure
<godbyk> thanks
<humphreybc> godbyk: it's making fine, you've changed contents to blue font?
<godbyk> the hyperlinks are colored now, yeah.
<godbyk> colors are apt to change when we setting on a color scheme.
<humphreybc> cool beans
<godbyk> Hey, koogee.
<godbyk> Are you still having problems compiling the manual?
<godbyk> If so, you might go to the pkgs/ dir (in the ubuntu-manual repository) and run the install-pkgs.sh script.
<godbyk> That'll make sure you have all the required Ubuntu and LaTeX packages installed.
<koogee> i've already run the script...all packages are installed
<koogee> it doesn't compile
<godbyk> koogee: Okay.  Can you run 'make clean', then edit the main.tex file, change the first line to \documentclass[debug]{ubuntu-manual}, save, and then run 'make' again?
<godbyk> if it fails to compile, then give me the log file and I'll take another look.
<koogee> sure...
<godbyk> thanks
<koogee> fails to compile, here's the log: http://pastebin.com/m9fcb714
<godbyk> Looks like it's having problems with the Palatino font.
<godbyk> Can you run "sudo apt-get install texlive-fonts-recommended" for me?
<godbyk> If it says the package is already installed, then run: sudo apt-get --reinstall install texlive-fonts-recommended
<koogee> installing the package...then run make clean, make again?
<godbyk> koogee: yep
<koogee> compiles! thanks a bunch, godbyk!
<koogee> Oops...i did a bzr pull after the successful compile...and made some text changes and ran 'make' again...it collapsed again: http://pastebin.com/m7f419cd6
<godbyk> koogee: ah, one sec.. there's another ubuntu package for that
<godbyk> (I just added that stuff recently)
<godbyk> koogee: sudo apt-get install texlive-xetex
<koogee> I thought I had done something :) ...installing...
<koogee> compiles successfully. Thank you again.
<godbyk> koogee: nope, that's my fault. I've been working on getting the translated manuals to compile and haven't got it all cleaned up nicely yet.
<godbyk> cool
<godbyk> np
<koogee> I'm going to commit some paragraphs...its my first commit...any pointers...stuff i should watch out for...? :)
<godbyk> koogee: I would to a 'bzr pull' just before you 'bzr commit'.. just to make sure there aren't any conflicts.
<godbyk> then after you've committed, you can run 'bzr push' to upload the changes to the rest of us.
<godbyk> when you do a bzr push, it may say it doesn't know where to push it to, so the first time you'll have to say 'bzr push lp:ubuntu-manual' but after that, 'bzr push' should just work.
<godbyk> if you have problems, feel free to holler.
<IlyaHaykinson> koogee: just sent you an email; didn't mean to delay committing your code
<IlyaHaykinson> er, not code -- section
<godbyk> I think I've got a good start on the translation stuff.
<godbyk> I can run 'make ubuntu-manual-<LANG>.pdf' and it'll compile a PDF in that language.
<godbyk> (with about a dozen caveats)
<godbyk> Hey, thorwil.  I just uploaded a bunch of stuff to handle translations.  (Hope I didn't break anything in the process!)
<thorwil> godbyk: hi. can you already make a list of fonts that *might* be used at least for the english version?
<godbyk> For the English version, it's pretty much wide open.
<thorwil> we definitively have to try Gentium
<godbyk> thorwil: I was looking at Gentium for some of the translations, since it's supposed to support more languages, but the LaTeX language stuff didn't like it too much because it was just a TTF and not an OTF (so it couldn't see what scripts Gentium actually supported).
<godbyk> thorwil: Actually it looks like it just didn't like Gentium with the Greek script.
<godbyk> The Gentium TTF files claim to currently support Latin, Cyrillic, IPA, and maybe Vietnamese scripts.
<thorwil> odd that OTF would help regarding language support, but that SIL would only offer TTF
<godbyk> Yeah, they said that they'll be converting things to OTF and some other odd format sometime.
<godbyk> I think it was only complaining about the combination of Gentium and Greek.
<godbyk> (Since the Gentium TTFs don't claim to support Greek.)
<IlyaHaykinson_> i remember that someone had signed up to do Chapter 2(around your desktop)
<IlyaHaykinson_> but don't remember who :)  anyone else remember?
<ring> hi ilya
<IlyaHaykinson_> hi ring
<ring> the meeting is on 2am local here in Dhaka
<ring> what will be yours?
<ring> what r u doing now?
<ring> I am translating the manual in Bengali
<IlyaHaykinson_> it's about time for me to go to work actually :)
<wolter> hi all
<ring> hi
<ring> I am waiting for the meeting eagerly because it is 1:30AM now
<wolter> ring, its tomorrow you know right?
<wolter> i mean, we are missing 24 hours and 28 minutes
<ring> Thanx for the notification
<ring> Going to sleep bro
<wolter> ok
<ring> thanx wolter
<wolter> no problem
<ring> where r u from?
<wolter> central america
<wolter> you?
<ring> me from Dhaka
<wolter> oh, let me google that :)
<wolter> is it india?
<ring> what r u doing?
<wolter> just woke up some time ago
<wolter> was listening some good quality music
<ring> no it's in Bangladesh
<ring> It is the capital of BD
<wolter> oh yeah, i just found out
<wolter> i remember now, in high school i new that
<ring> r u an IT Professional?
<wolter> no
<ring> then?
<wolter> haha, i just graduated from school last year
<ring> where r u living?
<wolter> in central america
<ring> graduation paper?
<ring> city please
<wolter> ok dude you're scaring me now
<ring> why and how?
<wolter> all these questions... its overwhelming
<ring> sorry!
<wolter> i'm thinking like next thing you'll as my coordinates and send me a missile or something
<wolter> dont worry
<ring> i just want to know about the place of your living
<wolter> well, its tropical
<ring> that's not possible
<wolter> what? it is tropical
<ring> because BD is against the Nuclear Weapons
<wolter> oh
<ring> what is your full name
<wolter> anyway, it was just an expression
<wolter> that's not helping you know...
<wolter> your pulling my leg. i will reply no mor
<wolter> e
<ring> if u r annoyed by my questions then I'm sorry
<ring> I have just the curiosity about you and your locality
<ring> but i could be my fault not to present my self in the right formation
<ring> sorry if u r bored from me
<ring> bye.
<ring> hope to see u in meeting next day
<ring> thanx again
<thorwil> 0.o
<wolter> yeah, thats what i say hah
<wolter> anyway, afk
<godbyk> Apparently I just missed the interrogation. :-)
<c7p> hello everyone
<c7p> Godbyk are you available?
<godbyk> c7p: Just taking off for lunch.  I'll be back after a bit.
<godbyk> c7p: Feel free to leave messages or email me <godbyk@gmail.com> if you have questions I can help with, though.
<godbyk> :-)
<dutchie> godbyk: Sveikas
<dutchie> (Lithuanian for hello)
<c7p> well i've received a message "[Ubuntu-manual] Compiling translated PDFs" and i'm interested in compiling my language's pdf. When i type
<c7p> Â sudo apt-get remove texlive-* i get E: Couldn't find package texlive*, any idea?
<dutchie> you probably didn't have it installed to start with
<dutchie> should be able to just carry on
<c7p> actually the output is http://pastebin.com/m1ca776bd
<dutchie> try using aptitude instead of apt-get
<c7p> worked for me. From what i see no packages removed so i had none installed ... thank you :)
<dutchie> np
<dutchie> glad to help
<c7p> i'm running the installation script and it says somewhere, Disk space required: 1708 MB. Is this true oO ...? or a bug? I have only 90 mb free space that's why im asking. I have to mention that the tar is only 1.6 mb.
<dutchie> that is a hell of a lot, ask godbyk if he's sure it's that big
<dutchie> (when he's back from lunch)
<c7p> ok
<godbyk> I'm back now.
<godbyk> c7p: Yeah, that's what's required for the full installation of TeX Live 2009 -- it's pretty big.  When I installed it last night, it said it needed 2 GB of space.
<godbyk> c7p: You can probably select on the packages required to compile the ubuntu manual, but you may have to add packages later if we require more as time goes on.
<godbyk> I've always just installed the full set of packages so I don't have to worry about anything being missing.
<c7p> there are plenty of packages. Do you have any idea which are the important packages ?
<godbyk> c7p: When you run the install script, you can press "S" to select a different scheme.
<godbyk> by default, the 'full scheme' is selected, which means everything gets installed.
<godbyk> you can change this to basic or medium.
<c7p> i think medium is ok
<godbyk> okay.
<godbyk> after you select media, go into the collections menu (C)
<c7p> thank you
<godbyk> make sure that the XeTeX packages are installed (C)
<godbyk> then under the languages menu (L), make sure that your language is installed.
<godbyk> (you can probably save quite a bit of space by not installing the documentation for all the packages)
<godbyk> c7p: if you run into problems compiling the document, give me a holler.. we may have to select some extra packages to install individually if they're not included in the medium collection.
<c7p> i have a problem with the <D>, directories
<c7p> it's ok now
<godbyk> where are you trying to install the files?  /usr/local/texlive/2009/?  if so, you'll need to run the install script under sudo.
<godbyk> ok
<c7p> i'm downloading the packages
<godbyk> cool.
<godbyk> how much space are they going to take and which collection did you go with?
<c7p> 635 without the english documentation, 725 with it ...
<godbyk> gotcha.
<godbyk> TeX itself is very small, but when you start adding in all the packages, it's huge.
<c7p> yeah HUGE
<dutchie> not just \huge, \Huge :)
<godbyk> dutchie: lol
<c7p> lol
<godbyk> dutchie: Greek: http://kevin.godby.org/private/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual-el.pdf
<dutchie> sweet
<c7p> who compiled it :P?
<godbyk> I did.
<godbyk> (I didn't translate any of it, I just compiled it.)
<c7p> coom
<c7p> cool*
<c7p> the funny part of it is that i am trying to install texlive to compile the greek translated pdf xD
<godbyk> c7p: Ah, cool.
<godbyk> c7p: Are you doing the Greek translation?  If so, I may have some questions for ya.
<godbyk> (There are some options with the TeX Greek stuff and I want to make sure we're using the right ones.)
<c7p> how can i help ?
<godbyk> Here are the options I've got:
<godbyk> 1. variant: monotonic, polytonic, or ancient?
<godbyk> 2. numerals: greek or arabic?
<dutchie> godbyk: I doubt ancient ;)
<godbyk> 3. use the acrophonic numbering system or no?
<godbyk> dutchie: Dude, there's actually an ancient Greek translation for our manual that someone started.
<c7p> monotonic
<godbyk> Along with Latin and Esperanto.
<dutchie> godbyk: wow
<godbyk> No Klingon yet, though. :)
<c7p> xD
<godbyk> (I'm not sure what the ancient Greeks want with our manual either, but I'm impressed nonetheless.)
<c7p> yeah and i think it is 0.1% translated
<dutchie> godbyk: \ifxetex is breaking my default karmic install
<godbyk> Yeah, I think most of the translations are just getting started.  Since the source language is still being updated all the time, it's hard to justify spending time translating something that'll change in a couple days.
<c7p> godbyk: don't you know it ...? they want to install ubuntu on their antikythera mechanism (kind of computer) xD
<godbyk> dutchie: Install the texlive-xetex package and that should fix it.
<dutchie> godbyk: cheers
<godbyk> At one point I trued to make that optional, but, well, it's just not anymore. :)
<godbyk> c7p: lol.. well, if anything would, I guess linux would run on it.  ;-)
<c7p> godbyk: linux runs everywhere ... even refrigerators run on linux
<c7p> installation complete
<godbyk> c7p: Do you want to use Greek numerals or Arabic numerals for numbered lists and chapter numbers?
<c7p> greek numerals -> A, B, Î etc ?
<godbyk> c7p: I guess.
<godbyk> \greeknumeral{1863} yields ÍµÎ±ÏÎ¾Î³Ê¹
<c7p> hm
<godbyk> So is ÍµÎ±ÏÎ¾Î³Ê¹ preferred to '1863'?
<c7p> the version that you compiled is ok
<godbyk> ok
<c7p> yeah the numerals are ok, good job
<godbyk> Btw, when I compiled the Greek manual, I got a few errors (something to do with referencing Appendix A), but if you press Enter a few times, it'll go past them and generate a PDF.
<godbyk> I'm looking into the problem now.
<c7p> actually if you open the pdf, on the 3rd page there are a few errors
<c7p> on the top of the screen on the right side there are
<c7p> iv ,iv , iv, iv .. v , vi
<c7p> no, there are also on the english manual, so i guess it's ok
<godbyk> c7p: Those are Roman numerals.  The introductory material in English books usually has its pages numbered with Roman numerals.  Then the main part of the book has pages numbered with Arabic numerals.
<godbyk> Do Greeks change the numbering like that in their books?
<godbyk> If you can show me how the Greeks do it, I can try to have our manual do the same.
<c7p> yeah it's common
<c7p> you can use Arabic numerals for numbering pages, paragraphs (e.g Installation) , Roman numerals for chapters (e.g Advanced Topics). The numerals as they are in the English version are can be used in the Greek version too. no big deal
<godbyk> c7p: cool, thanks for the info.
<godbyk> I'd like to have the manual be typeset as properly as possible for each individual language.
<godbyk> Unfortunately, I only speak English, so I'll have to rely on the translators to help me out with some of the details of their language, culture, and tradition.
<c7p> godbyk: glad to help you :)
<c7p> sure, you can mail them
<godbyk> c7p: Has the TeX Live stuff finished installing? Have you tried to compile the Greek translation?
<c7p> no i haven't tried
<c7p> and a silly question. where is ubuntu-manual/pkgs/ directory ?
<dutchie> you can do "bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual" to download
<c7p> bzr: ERROR: The user name xxx@gmail.com is not registered on Launchpad.
<c7p> now what ?
<godbyk> c7p: Do you have a launchpad account?  If not, you'll need to create one first: launchpad.net
<c7p> of course i have
<c7p> guys i g2g, thank you both
<godbyk> c7p: np. thanks for your help!
<c7p> np :) keep up the good work ;)
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-30
<godbyk> Hey, humphreybc.  I won't be able to make it to tomorrow's meeting; I got roped into helping a friend move.  I'll try to write up a summary of my recent work for you, though.
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> no probs kevin
<humphreybc> anything you want to say etc in the meeting, either email it to me and i'll say it on your behalf, or put it on the wiki somewhere
<godbyk> k
<godbyk> this week I've spent most my time working on getting the translations going (TeX-wise).
<wolter> hey humphreybc
<wolter> i think its 99% probable that i will attend the meeting tomorrow
<wolter> i say 99% because i don't really know whether my mother will create plans or not
<wolter> but otherwise, i will be there
<wolter> also, as I have returned from my trip, i am know able to work again
<wolter> also, i installed ground control
<wolter> and its great, but I don't see a "pull" button
<humphreybc> wolter: Martin is going to implement pull support soon
<humphreybc> for the meantime you just have to commit and push your changes, delete your code and then get it again under a different "work name"
<wolter> oh nice
<wolter> yeah, and i hope that the pull button is aside of the 'delete code' button
<wolter> anyway, brb
<wolter> Hi
<wolter> meeting now?
<IlyaHaykinson_> in #ubuntu-meeting
<wolter> oh ok
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> so now we should be in here :)
<wolter> present members, please report
<thorwil> !
<ubuntujenkins> hello
<KelvinGardiner> hello
 * IlyaHaykinson waves
<humphreybc> cool cool
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:11. The chair is humphreybc.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<voxwoman> OK... is this the right place?
<wolter> yes
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Target Audience
<MootBot> New Topic:  Target Audience
<wolter> Good
<humphreybc> I suppose firstly I should say hi and thanks for coming :P
<wolter> Of course :)
<wolter> This new schedule is a lot better
<humphreybc> now, onto business! the target audience, we need to decide on one
<rachaelb> hi
<rachaelb> sorry im late
<wolter> To whomever may correspond, if you are lost, follow this meeting plan https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<humphreybc> rachaelb: no probs
<tacantara> I'm baaack
<rachaelb> target audience i guess are win users who dont know anything about linux apartfrom the name
<humphreybc> so this is what dutchie wants me to say about the target audience, he sees it as someone like his mum - someone who just wants to get things done, print something, email, go on the internet, view photos. Her computer is a means to an end
<IlyaHaykinson> my thoughts: new computer users; novice users
<ubuntujenkins> I agree with Ilya
<wolter> So, my idea of the target audience is anybody who has used a computer before but not ubuntu, so he knows how to do basic stuff and move around a bit at least
<IlyaHaykinson> also: people comfortable with day-to-day tasks in windows or macos, and who want to try Ubuntu (or need it for some other reason)
<voxwoman> So we have to handhold them thru installing the OS, configuring their system and getting functional?
<humphreybc> I agree with dutchie: I think we should be targeting people who want to use their Ubuntu computer to "get things done" - which mainly means people like what IlyaHaykinson said, new computer users
<wolter> I think dutchie's example is great
<thorwil> basic mouse/keyboard skills are a must to even get to the manual
<wolter> yes
<IlyaHaykinson> i've typed up a longer description: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide -- in the section "writing for newbies"
<tacantara> As a noob, I think wolter hit the nail on the head
<humphreybc> voxwoman: well sort of, we have a step by step installation example, and yes we will provide fairly detailed steps when it comes to basic stuff. I think the emphasis and the majority of the manual should dwell on the simple things
<IlyaHaykinson> "In general, assume that a user does not know their monitor from their computer, that the user does not understand the difference between memory and a hard drive, and that the user does not intuitively pick up these things unless we point them out.
<IlyaHaykinson> However, also assume that a user is very interested in accomplishing certain tasks. A user wants to do the very basics on their computer: browse the Web, read and compose email, use instant messaging, create, manage, exchange, and edit various files (documents, images, audio, video).
<IlyaHaykinson> "We should assume that people have the skills of using the keyboard and mouse, and that they are generally aware of the multi-window desktop interface. "
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: that sounds like my mother
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: good! i was modeling it after my experience with my grandfather using Vista
<jaminday> hi all apologies for being late - was having pidgin issues
<humphreybc> but hang on, if they "do not know their monitor from their computer" how will they "have the skills of using the keyboard and mouse?"
<thorwil> i know users who can handle keyboard and mouse, bet get confused with windows
<humphreybc> jaminday: no worries
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i mean terminology wise
<IlyaHaykinson> my wife continually refers to the monitor as the computer, and the computer as the brain.
<humphreybc> well my mum doesn't even know how to turn off her computer or turn it on - she reaches for the button on the monitor, instead of the "box on the floor"
<voxwoman> I haven't used Ubuntu yet, is this a windows interface or a command line (or both)?
<wolter> haha
<IlyaHaykinson> but she obviously knows how to use them all.
<humphreybc> voxwoman: it's neither, it's a complete new operating system. Think how Mac OS X is compared to windows.
<IlyaHaykinson> voxwoman: it's somewhere between Mac OS and Windows in its interface.
<voxwoman> I didn't mean windows as MS Windows... I meant a GUI interface as opposed to a CLI
<IlyaHaykinson> GUI
<voxwoman> Thanks
<humphreybc> (it does have a CLI but we're not going to talk about that in our manual, too complicated)
<thorwil> i guess readers younger than 16 are unlikely. even more older than 70
<thorwil> but where would be a likely peak?
<IlyaHaykinson> my grandfather was 80 when he got his computer setup up, thorwil
<IlyaHaykinson> i don't think age matters.
<wolter> thorwil, yes, I think you're right about the ages
<IlyaHaykinson> i think for an audience, skillset is probably key
<thorwil> IlyaHaykinson: there are always excpetions
<voxwoman> Don't think age - think experience level
<wolter> I agree with voxwoman and IlyaHaykinson
<wolter> It is the skills that matter, not the time on this planet
<thorwil> remember that the target audience is about design decisions
<voxwoman> and there should be something listed in the preface about what the reader is expected to already know and what we are going to explain to them
<humphreybc> I personally don't think we should talk about how to use their hardware (mouse/keyboard) too much... because it might be different for each person and we don't want to stray too far away from what we know. Obviously keyboard buttons and things are okay to talk about, because they are generic - but the location of the power off button? Like how detailed will we need to be when talking about how to turn it back on when they've tu
<humphreybc> ah voxwoman good idea
<ubuntujenkins> they would have got hold of ubuntu some how or found the manual so they probably would have some keyboard and mouse skills
<humphreybc> okay
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: we need to cover the keyboard and mouse because there are preference panels for those, and because of ibus settings etc.
<thorwil> the more specific the audience, the better for design. this doesn't stop anyone not matching the definition from using the manual
<IlyaHaykinson> but of course we don't need to cover specific keystrokes etc
<humphreybc> okay so, target audience... people coming from windows or mac with basic computer knowledge who are used to just "getting things done" and for them, computers are a means to an end.
<IlyaHaykinson> again, as i wrote in the style guide, "We should assume that people have the skills of using the keyboard and mouse, and that they are generally aware of the multi-window desktop interface. "
<IlyaHaykinson> so we assume that we don't need to teach them about a cursor etc
<IlyaHaykinson> or what a button or a menu is. but that we need to be very clear on what button or menu to click.
<humphreybc> what do ya'll think about that definition above?
<voxwoman> what I've done in the past is have (again, in the preface) a list of conventions that sometimes gets very detailed about how to use pointing devices and text input, and more importantly how we refer to them in the rest of the text
<humphreybc> so like a "key" if you will
<humphreybc> right?
<thorwil> humphreybc: it's vague
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i agree with your definition, though users can just be new to computers in general, and don't know windows from mac. there are still a lot of people like that in the world.
<humphreybc> thorwil: well to be honest i'm not sure how more defined we're going to get - Ubuntu is designed to appeal to a wide market of people
<tacantara> Hmmm....glossary?
<IlyaHaykinson> either way, i think we're all saying the same thing basically.
<humphreybc> we just need to put it in words
<IlyaHaykinson> also, i strongly agree with voxwoman's idea about adding a "conventions used in this book" type of a section
<humphreybc> yeah that is a good idea
<IlyaHaykinson> it'll also be a place to point out our use of the "!!" for advanced / warnings etc
<KelvinGardiner> I agree with voxwoman too.
<humphreybc> [VOTE] "conventions used in this book" section
<MootBot> Please vote on:  "conventions used in this book" section.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual
<rachaelb> this may sound dumb... but my mum is 81 and a complete linux convert :) however she doesnt want to have to wade thru loads of material to find something, she jsut wants to be able to do it
<humphreybc> +1
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<jaminday> +1
<voxwoman> +1
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<KelvinGardiner> +1
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<IlyaHaykinson> +1
<wolter> +1
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 * vish just noticed meeting was here ! thanks wolter  ;)
<wolter> np :)
<tacantara> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tacantara. 9 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 9
<humphreybc> (to vote you can just say + 1 or - 1 = for and against)
<humphreybc> anyone else like to vote?
<thorwil> but what's the desired and likely core group? the peak of the curve? male/female, around 30 years, or is there perhaps a wave above 60, actually?
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 9 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 9
<jaminday> rachaelb: there will be a contents page that can help with quick navigation
<IlyaHaykinson> thorwil: i would not segment by gender or age. no need -- skillset and experience cross those boundaries.
<IlyaHaykinson> and i don't think we need to write differently for different ages, either.
<thorwil> IlyaHaykinson: once again, it's about having a base for design decisions
<wolter> sorry if i am not very active, but right now i am suffering from a 'wtf-nosebleed'
<humphreybc> thorwil: how about you ask us some questions on what you need to know?
<rachaelb> sorry... phone .... gotta go.... but please contact me (im on the list) re indexing and biographis etc if you need it :)
<rachaelb> but
<rachaelb> bye
<rachaelb> *
<wolter> ok
<humphreybc> because many of us aren't design minded, and I think if you could ask some open questions we might be able to give you a more focused reply
<thorwil> humphreybc: if you imagine a set of charts refering to the audience, you would have on age chart. where would we expect peaks?
<wolter> i say ~20
<wolter> because they're like the most active population computer-wise
 * humphreybc googles ubuntu user average age
<voxwoman> college-age students, and another peak 35-45. I am just completely guessing from  my geek friends
<IlyaHaykinson> in general, i would expect a 30-60 peak. people who've used computers for a while, but would like to move to a different operating system.
<thorwil> what's the most likely cultural background? what sites would they visit on the web ...
<humphreybc> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8113928
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8113928
<IlyaHaykinson> and as for college age students: they're less likely to read the manual, in my opinion.
<IlyaHaykinson> and more likely to find a friend to ask.
<humphreybc> true
<thorwil> ack
<voxwoman> Boy, my guess was based on the demographic of userfriendly.org forum... LOL
<humphreybc> also, people between 18-25 grew up with google, they'd google their answer before using a manual
<tacantara> You swold
<humphreybc> whereas I feel older users might prefer to read a book styled help
<voxwoman> Is the manual on the desktop? Should it be?
<jaminday> humphreybc: although googling their answer could now lead them to us...
<thorwil> i hope now you see the value of thinking about more specific groups :)
<tacantara> Oops mistype
<humphreybc> voxwoman: It will never be on the desktop, nothing is on the desktop by default. but there should be a clear link visible somewhere
<thorwil> voxwoman: maybe it should, but it's unlikely to happen
<wolter> i also wanted to point out (for the target audience topic) that probably users without basic keyboard/mouse knowledge will find out about ubuntu
<humphreybc> well it's a tough one
<thorwil> wolter: if they'd be given a printout ...
<humphreybc> without doing a tonne of research on who uses ubuntu, we can't really talk about graphs and charts without speculating
<IlyaHaykinson> thorwil: my suggestion is to assume a slightly older (post-college-age) audience skew, no gender skew. that's probably the best we can do.
<wolter> thats true
<voxwoman> If this book is part of what's going to be used for installing Unbuntu on a VM/dual boot system they've already got, I think they will want to read the manual first. But I'm in the "old" demographic
<tacantara> Look at how many go to UF without googling first
<thorwil> wolter: but that what the user needed to get to the manual we don't need to tell him
<wolter> good points thorwil
<wolter> i drop my point :)
<humphreybc> tacantara: I've always thought of our target audience being non geeky - ie, they probably wouldn't know about forums.
<tacantara> True
<humphreybc> not that using the forums is geeky
<KelvinGardiner> humphreybc: I think that's a good assumption.
<humphreybc> but i'm just saying, my mum would never actively look for help from the forums
<jaminday> i agree with humphrebc - without research these are difficult questions to answer properly
<humphreybc> she doesn't even know what a forum is
<thorwil> IlyaHaykinson: i mainly brought up gender just so you think about men and women. anything from 30/70 to 50/50 split either way shouldn't make a difference for us
<tacantara> My mum calls me direct lol
<IlyaHaykinson> thorwil: makes sense.
<KelvinGardiner> Does non geeky also mean less googling.
<humphreybc> well not necessarily, google is pretty famous
<voxwoman> non-geeky means they are more likely to use whatever comes up on the first page of results
<IlyaHaykinson> i would like to suggest, unless there's actionable work on this topic, that we move on.
<IlyaHaykinson> i feel like we generally have a good idea on our audience already
<wolter> or that they'd rather ask somebody who knows about ubuntu, before looking it up
<voxwoman> agrees with ilyahaykinson
<humphreybc> thorwil: Are you happy with going off what you've heard here?
<wolter> i think that before moving on, we should all vote on a descriptive text of the target audiecne
<wolter> audience
<wolter> so that every think is loud and clear
<wolter> everything*
<wolter> lol
<thorwil> a collection of what was mentioned should be good enough for now, yes :)
<humphreybc> i think we'd be sitting here all day trying to fine tune a paragraph that actually describes our target audience
<tacantara> +1
<humphreybc> okay moving on
<voxwoman> +1
<humphreybc> [VOTE] How/where/when will users come across our document?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  How/where/when will users come across our document?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> wait
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 0
<humphreybc> sorry it's still the morning
<humphreybc> :)
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] How/where/when will users come across our document?
<MootBot> New Topic:  How/where/when will users come across our document?
<wolter> 1. Ubuntu download page
<IlyaHaykinson> 1) google, 2) ubuntu.com, if we are successful, 3) ubuntu distribution itself, if we are very successful
<wolter> 2. User who helped install ubuntu
<humphreybc> 2. Our website will probably have a download link eventually
<wolter> 3. google
<ubuntujenkins> how hard is it to get on the cd?
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: it's quite hard
<IlyaHaykinson> ubuntujenkins: i think easy if quality is high, hard if quality is low.
<humphreybc> it all depends on file size
<wolter> ubuntujenkins, we just need to get canonical's love
<voxwoman> it *should* be very easy
<humphreybc> oh and quality ;)
<thorwil> humphreybc: could we have a domain for the manual?
<humphreybc> yeah but they've got to cram a whole OS and a dozen applications into 700mb
<IlyaHaykinson> right now i would say consistency, quality, and completeness are our main problems.
<wolter> (lol, i am the only confirmed guest on the ubuntu manual meeting)
<voxwoman> Is there anyway to turn this into online help as well as a book-style book? or is that beyond scope of the project?
<tacantara> Get LOCOs to help spread the word
<humphreybc> thorwil: heh well, eventually. right now we need to get it finished first
<KelvinGardiner> The forum has a read this first thread in the beginners area. We should be linked from there.
<wolter> (on facebook)
<IlyaHaykinson> well, a download link in a prominent place is just as good as being included on the disk.
<humphreybc> voxwoman: we can export to HTML, power of latex :)
<thorwil> what KelvinGardiner said
<humphreybc> basically we will have it everywhere
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson, not if the user doesn't have a good/constant internet connection
<humphreybc> it won't be hard to fin
<wolter> which is likely to happen
<humphreybc> find*
<thorwil> yeah, even printedn on t-shirts!
<humphreybc> heh
<humphreybc> so the "where and how" are easy
<IlyaHaykinson> er... that leaves the "when"?
<voxwoman> It should be on the CD at a very high level under a /doc or /help directory
<humphreybc> when - well, when they get ubuntu, when they download it, when they're thinking of downloading it but want to read something about it first, when their friend gives them a copy, when their grandson gives them a copy to read
<thorwil> humphreybc: the real question might be how they get to know about it
<IlyaHaykinson> i think we should not have to worry about this topic until our manual is finished.
<humphreybc> voxwoman: It will probably be in "example content" and linked from the panel and apps menu
<IlyaHaykinson> i actually totally see the possibility where for 10.04 our manual is not really well known or included, but by 10.10 it's included on the disk etc.
<humphreybc> Also we can have a slide in the installation slideshow
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: you're 100% right, there is still a huge chance that could happen
<IlyaHaykinson> mainly because that way we can prove to users, and to canonical, that this is a valuable resource.
<tacantara> Sweet idea humphreybc
<IlyaHaykinson> right now, i think nobody will take us seriously enough.
<humphreybc> even if we don't get on the CD this time round, we're going to get a lot of downloads just from the publicity we've already received
<IlyaHaykinson> they can't link to us from the install, or promise a spot on the disk, etc, until we have a finished product.
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson, well, sites like digg have already a lot of people waiting for the manual
<humphreybc> yup
<thorwil> IlyaHaykinson: true. this was about having an idea of context for how the manual should present itself
<humphreybc> okay moving on to the next topic...
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] What style/tone should we aim for, what should be the message both about our document and Ubuntu?
<MootBot> New Topic:  What style/tone should we aim for, what should be the message both about our document and Ubuntu?
<wolter> simple and clear
<humphreybc> I guess welcoming
<voxwoman> friendly yet professional :)
<humphreybc> Ubuntu = super easy to use
<wolter> voxwoman, +1
<IlyaHaykinson> I point people to the "Voice" section of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/StyleGuide
<thorwil> an aura of competence
<thorwil> solid, secure, trustworthy, capable
<thorwil> Ubuntu is empowering
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> it helps you get shit done
<humphreybc> *scuse my french
<thorwil> community spirit
<wolter> I totally agree with IlyaHaykinson voice thing
<humphreybc> it should encourage you about open source
<wolter> thorwil, +1
<humphreybc> FOSS = awesome
<humphreybc> it should also teach you about FOSS and Ubuntu, and how it will benefit YOU
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i think maybe a good chunk of Chapter 10 can be about this?
<tacantara> Or think of Keir Thomas' style.  A little witty, but to the point, with user testimonial
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: indeed
<IlyaHaykinson> tacantara: the problem with witty is that we need to write to an international audience
<wolter> IlyaHaykinson, humphreybc, i think that the wonders of FOSS should be introduced to earlier
<voxwoman> this is a lot of emotional stuff - are we talking design or writing?
<wolter> than chapter 10
<humphreybc> tacantara: I honestly think user testimonials are cheesy and infomercial like
<thorwil> voxwoman: design
<voxwoman> ah... makes more sense now :)
<thorwil> voxwoman: not that writing can be decoupled
<wolter> like, in the ~'what is ubuntu' part, explain that it is open source, and then give  ashort paragraph about the glories of open source software
<tacantara> Eh, I see...it is all in the translation
<IlyaHaykinson> translating "witty" is difficult. reading "witty" for people for whom english is not their first language (and we don't have a perfect translation) is going to be difficult.
<wolter> (FOSS)
<KelvinGardiner> The doc team recommend not being witty
<voxwoman> well, if I'm reading a manual, I am in there to find out how to do something. I don't much care about WHY.
<humphreybc> yeah i'd avoid witty seeing as we're hoping to become "official"
<wolter> yes, I think we should use more 'every-day' words
<thorwil> better risk dryness than appearing like clowns
<voxwoman> this was a hard lesson for me to learn during my tech writing career.
<humphreybc> Keir Thomas is independent
<jaminday> but keep it friendly and welcoming sans wit
<humphreybc> righto, in agreement with that stuff?
<thorwil> i wonder if it could be "street" abit?
<IlyaHaykinson> another point... avoiding marketing speak is important.
<voxwoman> "street" will turn off your >40 people.
<IlyaHaykinson> we need to not come off as selling Ubuntu or open source or Linux or whatever.
<IlyaHaykinson> as much as possible.
<IlyaHaykinson> outside of well-defined sections (prologue, chapter 10)
<wolter> i think voxwoman has good feedback to provide
<jaminday> thorwil: can you elaborate?
<wolter> now i recall she was the one who reported in to our mailing lists and said that she had 20 years of experience
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: I've always wondered why you think this is a good idea?
<voxwoman> Yes. I'm 52, and a grandmother and I've been writing hardware (and some software) manuals for about 20 year or so. I was an EE before that.
<wolter> yes, i don't understand the "street" concept much either
<humphreybc> Why would a little bit of "look how awesome ubuntu is!" turn off people?
<IlyaHaykinson> because providing our own judgment is a bit insulting to people when they are reading
<KelvinGardiner> I think voxwoman friendly and professional point was a good one.
<thorwil> voxwoman: probably right
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: ahh okay, so judgement, gotcha
<wolter> humphreybc, i think it sounds unprofessional and infantile
<IlyaHaykinson> if you say "the Ubuntu desktop is excellent" and the user thinks it sucks and they barely tolerate it, you are not connecting with them.
<voxwoman> "Look how asweome" soemthing is is marketing stuff, generally
<IlyaHaykinson> so i say sing the praises, but only when clearly delineated.
<humphreybc> Yup so we should avoid personal opinion
<jaminday> i agree with IlyaHaykinson
<thorwil> strike "street". what i'd be after is a from everyday people for everyday people
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: not totally _all_ opinion
<wolter> humphreybc, i think you hit the nail on the head
<wolter> we should be objective, whenever possible
<humphreybc> okay cool
<wolter> and not 'subjective'
<IlyaHaykinson> we can provide suggestions on the best ways to do things for newbies.
<wolter> of course
<humphreybc> yup, gotcha
<jaminday> thorwil: yeah that's what i thought you were getting at - basically keeping it in lay terms without becoming too 'techy'
<thorwil> the system should speak for itself, regarding quality
<IlyaHaykinson> just not unreferenced, purely subjective opinions
<IlyaHaykinson> or better yet, only provide opinions that are consistent with Ubuntu's default options, or the doc team's recommendations.
<humphreybc> we should also link to hard facts if we do want to quote anything that makes ubuntu sound cool. example: French police force example in the prologue
<voxwoman> jaminday: agree with lay terms, and explain techy terms if they have to be used (like, for instance "virtual machine")
<humphreybc> (I haven't linked that to anything yet, btw)
<wolter> humphreybc, thats greaty
<wolter> great*
<tacantara> User experience vs testimonial....they are different
<IlyaHaykinson> hm, i think it's fine in the prologue...
<wolter> but more like in a fun facts sectioon
<jaminday> voxwoman: yep definitely
<humphreybc> the first half should be entirely lay terms
<wolter> or, like 'did you know' notecallouts aside of text
<humphreybc> the second half, the "advanced" part can go into tech speak a wee bit more
<humphreybc> whoever's idea it was to split the manual into two sections, congrats, that's the best thing we could have done xD
 * thorwil throws a gerbil at vish 
<humphreybc> okay so are we happy with that? move on?
<wolter> i don't know if it is very appropiate to say, but we should use a seducing way of writing
<jaminday> humphreybc: yes but still explain our tech terms in part II for the uninitiated
<wolter> i agree
<wolter> like a leveling section
<humphreybc> wolter: what like use a lot of sibilance? "Ubuntu is sexy, super and you can sift through your significant work with style"
<thorwil> wolter: sorry, but how many writers do we have that would be capable of that?
<humphreybc> hehe
<wolter> thorwil, haha, what do you mean?
<humphreybc> Yeah remember we don't exactly have Dale Carnegie on our writing team
<voxwoman> and how will sibilance or alliteration translate?
<wolter> thorwil, humphreybc i meant seductive, as in elegant and classy, simple and direct to the point
<IlyaHaykinson> wolter: "Ubuntu is a scrumptious, passionate operating system. With it's luscious icons, and its agonizingly well-executed software packaging infrastructure, you can satisfy your fondest dreams of double-clicking" like that?
<humphreybc> voxwoman: it won't, it's a joke :P
<humphreybc> hahaha
<wolter> haha not that loaded with terms
<thorwil> wolter: it seems to me like asking for highest craftsmanship, if you don't want to risk coming of as sleazy
<wolter> (add 'yet friendly' to what i said before)
<humphreybc> I think that's out of the equation for three reasons: 1) we don't have that capable writers, 2) it's hard to translate and 3) it's a bit risky to start sounding "sexy"
<humphreybc> but wolter I know what you mean
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: agreed
<humphreybc> it's like what Mac is trying to do compared to windows with their mac vs PC ads
<wolter> ok, fair enough then
<humphreybc> (I personally see Ubuntu as Optimus Prime in those ads)
<jaminday> humphreybc: hehe nice
 * wolter hasn't watched Tranformers 2
<humphreybc> you can totally imagine him like powering into the set and squashing them bot
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> moving on!
<wolter> haha
<humphreybc> oO this topic everyone will like
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] What should the title be?
<MootBot> New Topic:  What should the title be?
<wolter> indeed
<voxwoman> lol
 * vish was reading/catching up with the meeting log and notices a flying gerbil , courtesy : thorwil  ;p
<wolter> I'd go for "The Ubuntu Manual"
<humphreybc> have a look at the suggestions here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<humphreybc> wolter: I know it's a cool name, but I'm not sure if we can get away with that for too long
<humphreybc> Canonical might have something to say about that
<jaminday> "100 super-sexy ways to satisfy your ubuntu cravings"?
<thorwil> vish: it was a vish detecting gerbil
<jaminday> ah sorry we've moved on
<humphreybc> haha
<IlyaHaykinson> my Windows 95 manual (did i mention it was exactly 95 pages?) is called "introducing windows 95"
<vish> humphreybc: stick with the current name, you would loose *all* branding you have gained so far
<wolter> Ubuntu for you
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: you love that manual. is it written in a sexy 90s esque manner?
<humphreybc> well we could have that as the main title, and a sub-title
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i love it because of the hard work i had to do to find a copy! it's not actually all that good.
<KelvinGardiner> vish: Unless we add a sub0title
<thorwil> take into account what was said about audience, style and tone
<wolter> i would add a subtitle
<voxwoman> Since you didn't fall in love with "Ubuntu for Everyone"... what about Ubuntu for ALMOST Everyone"
<IlyaHaykinson> vish: i think the branding we've gained was for _an_ ubuntu manual, not for the "ubuntu manual" exactly.
<wolter> but what i would strive for is keeping the main title simple
<wolter> and shoert
<wolter> short*
<vish> KelvinGardiner: subtitle as "The Ubuntu Manual" ?
<wolter> as in easy to remember
<humphreybc> voxwoman: I don't think we can eliminate people on the cover
<IlyaHaykinson> "Using Ubuntu"?
<humphreybc> if you know what i mean
<humphreybc> so the main title should be "The Ubuntu Manual" - agree?
<thorwil> no
<vish> +1
<jaminday> How about just simply "The Ubuntu Manual: A Beginner's Guide"
<ubuntujenkins> +1
<KelvinGardiner> humphreybc: yes
<wolter> lol, waiit for the voting
<IlyaHaykinson> hm. is the word "manual" potentially loaded with multiple meanings for non-first-language english readers?
<voxwoman> Is it ever going to cover all the advanced topics?
<tacantara> +1
<humphreybc> and the subtitle needs to show: a) who it's for and b) what it's going to help you achieve
<wolter> jaminday, "... to Ubuntu"
<thorwil> it should get the What and ideally touch the Who
<vish> wolter: argh!
<vish> no
<ubuntujenkins> we should include which version it is for
<wolter> of course
<jaminday> vish: hehe
<vish> ;)
<IlyaHaykinson> "Starting out with Ubuntu <versionnumber>"?
<voxwoman> Getting Started with Ubuntu
<humphreybc> ubuntujenkins: what version it's for will always be somewhere on the title page
<voxwoman> Ubuntu Made Easy
<vish> wolter:  "The Ubuntu Manual: A Beginner's Guide" is enough , no need for  "The Ubuntu Manual: A Beginner's Guide to Ubuntu" ;)
<thorwil> voxwoman: good ones
<humphreybc> eek
<humphreybc> tough choices
<thorwil> "Getting Started with Ubuntu"
<humphreybc> I like "Getting Started with Ubuntu"
<wolter> vish, ok
<IlyaHaykinson> what language does Canonical use for it?
<humphreybc> so, "Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04"
<IlyaHaykinson> in their help screens etc?
<jaminday> humphreybc: yeah it doesn't classify people as beginners or not
<vish> guys , stop repeating "Ubuntu" in *every* line.. either The title has Ubuntu or the Subtitle , pick one
<humphreybc> jaminday: totally, it just says "you are new to ubuntu, read this"
<wolter> I would go for a proper name
<thorwil> still gives people an idea if it for them or neot
<wolter> like "The Ubuntu Manual"
<wolter> getting started with ubnutu sounds too generic
<humphreybc> how do you mean wolter?
<jaminday> what about just "The Ubuntu Manual: Getting Started"
<voxwoman> the Ubuntu Manual isn't generic?
<thorwil> wolter: how is Ubuntu Manual not generic?
<thorwil> wolter: even more, i think it implies a big and deep thing
<humphreybc> nah jaminday that sort of suggests that we've written a manual on how to use our manual...
<voxwoman> I also expect something called the Ubuntu Manual to be an text for advanced users.
<wolter> thorwil, humphreybc: we need a name to identify the manual.. a sticky name
<humphreybc> okay wait wait hold up
<humphreybc> so
<jaminday> humphreybc: yes true...
<humphreybc> "The Ubuntu Manual" what points are for this? We already have publicity with this name?
<wolter> voxwoman, manuals... as the ones that come in with products of every category, are not meant for advanced users
<humphreybc> we need to do some fors and against here
 * vish notices the manual meeting chat moves nearly as fast as the #ubuntu room o.0
<wolter> haha
<wolter> good
<humphreybc> vish: we're a high stress environment
<humphreybc> okay
<voxwoman> vish: we'
<humphreybc> so give me some "FORS" for using "The Ubuntu Manual"
 * thorwil has about 13 minutes left
<voxwoman> 're being productive*
<humphreybc> 1) It's already well known
<wolter> +1
<KelvinGardiner> +1
<humphreybc> 2) It sort of suggests it covers everything
<wolter> 2) It is sticky
<humphreybc> but is that a good thing?
<wolter> yes...
<humphreybc> (covering everything)
<vish> voxwoman: yeah , but its 2:30am here , was a bit tought to follow ;)
<wolter> oh well, every basic thing
<vish> though*
<thorwil> not if it doesn't cover everything
<vish> tough*
<humphreybc> okay, we're going to vote
<wolter> i say its good that the name is sticky so people can recommend it to others without having them forget
<IlyaHaykinson> i second the Ubuntu Manual.. it's a reasonable, short compromise
<jaminday> +1 from me
<wolter> wait for the voting section...
<voxwoman> IMO, TUM does not conve "friendly, inclusive and the other emotional things that I've heard you guys talk about this week.
<wolter> so mootbot counts the votes
<humphreybc> So, if you like the name, vote FOR it, if you don't, vote AGAINST. the two names up for contention are "The Ubuntu Manual" and "Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04"
<jaminday> wolter: sorry itchy trigger finger
<wolter> haha
<humphreybc> okay, so everyone got that? there will be TWO options to choose from
<wolter> you can kill somebody with one of those
<wolter> roger
<humphreybc> [VOTE] "The Ubuntu Manual"
<MootBot> Please vote on:  "The Ubuntu Manual".
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual
<wolter> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from wolter. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<humphreybc> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<waltmenz> +1
<thorwil> -1
<MootBot> +1 received from waltmenz. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<KelvinGardiner> +1
<MootBot> -1 received from thorwil. 2 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<voxwoman> -1
<MootBot> +1 received from KelvinGardiner. 3 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<vish> +1
<MootBot> -1 received from voxwoman. 3 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<tacantara> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from vish. 4 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from tacantara. 5 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ubuntujenkins> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ubuntujenkins. 6 for, 3 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<jaminday> 0
<jaminday> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from jaminday. 6 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<IlyaHaykinson> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from IlyaHaykinson. 6 for, 3 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
<humphreybc> everyone voted?
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 3 against. 2 abstained. Total: 3
<humphreybc> okay so 3 for that one
<humphreybc> now
<humphreybc> [VOTE] "Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04"
<MootBot> Please vote on:  "Getting Started with Ubuntu 10.04".
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-manual
<humphreybc> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from humphreybc. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<thorwil> +1
<wolter> -1
<MootBot> +1 received from thorwil. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> -1 received from wolter. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<voxwoman> +1
<IlyaHaykinson> +0
<ubuntujenkins> -1
<vish> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from voxwoman. 3 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<KelvinGardiner> +1
<waltmenz> -1
<MootBot> +1 received from vish. 4 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> Abstention received from IlyaHaykinson. 4 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<tacantara> +1
<MootBot> -1 received from ubuntujenkins. 4 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<jaminday> +0
<MootBot> +1 received from KelvinGardiner. 5 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> -1 received from waltmenz. 5 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from tacantara. 6 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> Abstention received from jaminday. 6 for, 3 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
<humphreybc> oh for christ
<IlyaHaykinson> oh great.
<voxwoman> LOL
<wolter> people are double voting here...
<humphreybc> that's cute
<wolter> ok.
<jaminday> hehe
<vish> lol!
<humphreybc> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 3 against. 2 abstained. Total: 3
<wolter> lets do this: suggest the title you want (if its not TUM or GSWU)
<vish> hmm , i voted both :/
<voxwoman> How about "Getting started with Ubuntu: The Ubuntu Manual"
<humphreybc> nooooooooo
<IlyaHaykinson> "Using Ubuntu"
<tacantara> Oops. Working off small screen today
<thorwil> humphreybc: hit the list with that and move on?
<voxwoman> yes
<wolter> and then whoever is with TUM votes +1 and whoever is with GSWU votes -1
<humphreybc> yeah okay I think we should move on and move this to the mailing list
<wolter> i can hear vish already
<humphreybc> there a few other people who aren't here who might like to have a say
<wolter> (don't repeat ubuntu)
<wolter> it does sound saturated
 * IlyaHaykinson agrees with moving it to the mailing list.
<wolter> ok then
<voxwoman> +1
<humphreybc> I'll email the mailing list and put down some rules, then we'll move on
<humphreybc> cool
<vish> +1
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Handling screenshots
<MootBot> New Topic:  Handling screenshots
<humphreybc> now this will be fun
<wolter> ok
<IlyaHaykinson> i think the docs team has a recommendation on the technical specs
 * vish might fall asleep on the keyboard any moment Zzz...
<humphreybc> dutchie found this yesterday: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserInterfaceFreeze
<IlyaHaykinson> something like 800x600, 8-bit
<thorwil> first: do not rescale screenshots
<humphreybc> March 4th is when we can start taking the screenshots
<wolter> i'd say 1. set a standard resolution 2. use the standard lucid theme
<thorwil> every pixel must stay
<thorwil> wolter: everything on default is a given, i think
<vish> +1 to pixels
<wolter> 8bit?
<humphreybc> well in that case we'll be taking stuff in a virtual box so we can adjust the res properly
<thorwil> but all shots should be taken with the same display resolution
<humphreybc> remember file size file size file size
<wolter> of course
<IlyaHaykinson> they found it was the best compromise between size and quality. i'm trying to find the link.
<voxwoman> what graphics format? PNG?
<wolter> i would say jpg
<wolter> quality jpg
<humphreybc> as an example, Pitivi, an *entire* video editing program, takes up 2.5mb
<thorwil> sources should be png
<vish> wolter: no , why not png?
<wolter> because png is always too big i think
<wolter> i wouldn't know for sure
<thorwil> should be possible to use PDF jpg conversion
<humphreybc> isn't png the best for size?
<vish> wolter: hmm , use it as the source
<voxwoman> JPG is lossy and can look really bad in PDF.
<vish> humphreybc: yes
<vish> no
<wolter> voxwoman, it has different levels of quality
<humphreybc> I think pngs are the way to go
<thorwil> input for pdf creation: png
<humphreybc> everyone has told me that
<vish> humphreybc: oops , the size is bigger , but better quality
<wolter> ok, then i vote for pg
<wolter> png
<thorwil> result in pdf: jpg
<humphreybc> yeah I think png for screenshots
<humphreybc> output can be jpg or whatever
<humphreybc> we also need to decide how often we're going to use screenshots
<wolter> humphreybc, could we later discuss if the manual should be in pdf default or html?
<wolter> I'm beginning to think html is better
<humphreybc> we can only use them when they are _ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY_
<wolter> and pdf for printing
<vish> humphreybc: what are the places which would really need a screenshot?
<humphreybc> we can do both wolter, it's not a problem
<humphreybc> well, installation
<vish> humphreybc: installation? why
<humphreybc> demonstrating stuff like the wireless network connection dialog thing
<wolter> and give an option to 'skip pictures on printing'
<IlyaHaykinson> gnome documentation recommends: PNG, max width 510 px
<voxwoman> If it takes you a long paragraph to describe where on the screen you need to click, a screenshot is better
<wolter> ok then
<IlyaHaykinson> as per: http://library.gnome.org/devel/gdp-style-guide/stable/screenshots.html.en
<humphreybc> wolter: i'm not sure if that's possible with PDF
<wolter> i think we should have 16:9 screenshots with 510 width
<humphreybc> okay so I figured we'd probably have 30 screenshots
<humphreybc> in 30 languages
<humphreybc> so that's 900 screenshots we need to get....
<thorwil> from now on, vish will have to represent me (except in matters regarding the title)
<thorwil> cya!
<wolter> and screenshots should be focused on windows
<wolter> maybe
<humphreybc> chow thorwil
<wolter> hahaha
<wolter> gb
<vish> thorwil: hey! i'm half asleep :s
<IlyaHaykinson> aha: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots
<humphreybc> but yeah, 30 screenshots in 30 languages = 900. That is going to be a real mission.
<humphreybc> so what about screenshots of just windows only?
<vish> humphreybc: stay away from screenshot as much as possible, it makes it easier to translators
<IlyaHaykinson> I recommend that we appoint a screenshot leader, and a screenshot team.
<vish> s/to/for
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yup we will be doing that for sure
<IlyaHaykinson> the leader and the team are responsible for taking all the screenshorts. the leader is responsible for editing and consistency.
<ubuntujenkins> have one screenshot of the desktop at the start for people to refer to
<IlyaHaykinson> within the team they share a single virtual machine instance configured with the same username, same settings, etc.
<humphreybc> ie say we're giving a demonstration of how to connect to the wireless, we don't want the whole desktop when the focal point is the wireless drop down box thing from the panel
<jaminday> vish: sure is probably easier for translators but nobody wants to open a manual that is all text
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: correct; just need the relevant menu.
<humphreybc> okay cool
<humphreybc> so does that guide that you posted before
<IlyaHaykinson> i recommend that initially, we plug the same (standard, English-language) screenshots into all the localized vesions.
<humphreybc> does that output the whole screen? and we'd have to manually crop?
<IlyaHaykinson> then we can do a second pass, as the translations are finished, and localize the screenshots too.
<vish> jaminday: good point ,but we shouldnt get carried away :)
<humphreybc> the branch is going to be huuuuuuuuuge
<jaminday> vish: agreed
<humphreybc> we might need separate branches for all this
<humphreybc> man this is going to be hard
<humphreybc> righto
<humphreybc> so, points of action
<jaminday> yeah i think separate branch for images
<jaminday> if it's possible
<IlyaHaykinson> the Windows 95 manual (see, i refer to it again) has almost no whole-desktop screenshots.
<humphreybc> 1) appoint a screenshot leader and a team
<wolter> i think we sould REALLY limit screenshots to parts where they are mandatory
<IlyaHaykinson> most are probably of a roughly 300x300 pixel area
<humphreybc> 2) create a new branch off the main trunk branch for screenshots
<voxwoman> I almost never display the entire desktop.
<humphreybc> 3) be very very very selective when choosing screenshots
<voxwoman> it's only dialog boxes and menus (with possibly a little desktop to provide context if needed)
<humphreybc> everyone agree with those points of action?
<jaminday> yep agreed so far
<wolter> yes
<voxwoman> +1
<KelvinGardiner> yes
<humphreybc> okay any more to add?
<IlyaHaykinson> yeah
<IlyaHaykinson> 4) use a consistent virtual machine image
<IlyaHaykinson> 5) do not start until after beta
<humphreybc> after our beta?
<humphreybc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserInterfaceFreeze
<humphreybc> that's on march 4th
<IlyaHaykinson> no, ubuntu beta.
<humphreybc> (our beta is on the same day as ubuntu beta)
<IlyaHaykinson> ah. well.
<IlyaHaykinson> ok.
<humphreybc> we can start at the user interface freeze
<humphreybc> i reckon
<humphreybc> we're going to need as much time as possible
<IlyaHaykinson> probably.
<voxwoman> Are graphics imported into the document or embedded? If imported, we can use placeholders (early shots) now, for layout and formatting and update later.
<humphreybc> because getting all the localized screenshots will be a real mission
<humphreybc> voxwoman: I think layout/formatting can be fixed up fairly quickly. I'm not sure about the details of screenshots in LaTeX, godbyk isn't around at the moment
<jaminday> voxwoman: that is a good point
<jaminday> it could save time later
<wolter> voxwoman, they're compiled with the manual
<IlyaHaykinson> i think perhaps we should do one or two test screenshots -- one large (full-desktop) one, and one small (single window).
<wolter> ... at compile tie
<wolter> time*
<IlyaHaykinson> maybe godbyk can be in charge of this test?
<humphreybc> yup
<humphreybc> okay i'll get godbyk on to it
<humphreybc> :)
<KelvinGardiner> voxwoman: the screenshots are imported at compile time and embedded in the pdf. I place holder can be used.
<humphreybc> cool
<KelvinGardiner> Maybe a blank image or a big red cross.
<humphreybc> moving on?
<wolter> moving on
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Change to beta release date
<MootBot> New Topic:  Change to beta release date
<humphreybc> okay so basically all I did was push back our release 3 days
<humphreybc> we originally had our beta on march 15th, I moved it to march 18th because that's when the Lucid beta is out
<wolter> ok
<jaminday> fair enough
<humphreybc> nothing to talk about there :)
<KelvinGardiner> ok
<wolter> i think we can do it
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Lucid timeline
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid timeline
<humphreybc> (for those following the agenda, that link should go here: http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/lucidtimeline.jpg)
<humphreybc> so, yeah, look at this http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/lucidtimeline.jpg
<humphreybc> it will be useful for us :)
<humphreybc> and that's that for that topic xD
 * humphreybc realises that banshee is now playing "star wars imperial march" as it's on shuffle
 * humphreybc "The death star will be completed in several hours, lord sidious. Good."
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> now
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] Writing freeze
<MootBot> New Topic:  Writing freeze
<humphreybc> we need to freeze the writing at some point rather soon
<humphreybc> so the translations can catch up
<IlyaHaykinson> I recommend the freeze by our beta.
<humphreybc> yup
<wolter> yes
<humphreybc> that's what I was thinking
<voxwoman> yes
<wolter> so, move on?
<jaminday> agreed - there is still a lot of editing to be done
<humphreybc> that gives them over a month
<humphreybc> [TOPIC] alpha review: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+milestone/alpha-release
<MootBot> New Topic:  alpha review: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+milestone/alpha-release
<wolter> i can translate spanish
<humphreybc> so if you see under "blueprints" 5Â Started,Â 1Â Slow progress,Â 5Â Good progress,Â 1Â Needs Code Review
<humphreybc> we have basically 10 days till alpha
<humphreybc> we need to change those "slow progress" and "started" blueprints into "good progress" and "needs code review"
<wolter> i agree with that alpha review
<jaminday> agreed
<humphreybc> So if basically just update your blueprints
<humphreybc> for your chapters etc
<wolter> ok
<humphreybc> anything you're assigned to you need to make sure the progress is up to date
<wolter> will do
<humphreybc> ... aaaaaaaand that's it I believe
<humphreybc> another 90 minute meeting
<humphreybc> seems to be the trend for our team!
<voxwoman> quick question:
<humphreybc> any other questions feedback?
<humphreybc> yup
<KelvinGardiner> yes
<voxwoman> is there any place where a draft PDF of the whole manual may be found?
<humphreybc> there sure is
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: i think we need to be more reaslistic. right now chapter 2 is making no progress, not "slow progress", for example.
<humphreybc> voxwoman: here is a draft, but it's a bit old. i'll put up the latest one on my server right now
<humphreybc> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual
<voxwoman> thanks
<humphreybc> voxwoman: one sec
<wolter> ok, ill check out now then?
<humphreybc> wolter: sure you can head off
<IlyaHaykinson> and the hardware chapter is not making fast progress, either, despite 4 people on it now.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: yeah true. what is happening with those two chapters now?
<wolter> good-bye people, thanks for attending!
<voxwoman> bye!
<IlyaHaykinson> chap2: you mentioned that someone was going to take it on? i forgot who.
<vish> nite all
<KelvinGardiner> I have a number of small bugs / questions across several chapters. Is it best to use the mailing list or a large bug report. I would think the mailing list.
<voxwoman> I thoguht you were giving me some of chapter 2
<voxwoman> But I'm worried that I won't get up to speed in time
<IlyaHaykinson> voxwoman: indeed. but i gave you a smaller part, as you asked. i meant about the larger part of the chapter.
<voxwoman> ah gotcha
<humphreybc> voxwoman: humphreybc.homeip.net/files/main.pdf
<humphreybc> oops
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/main.pdf
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/main.pdf
<tacantara>  I'm also on chapter 2 writing
<humphreybc> that's the latest revision, 176
<IlyaHaykinson> tacantara: ah, _you_ are the one on chap2, cool.
<humphreybc> okay well tacantara, voxwoman, unfortunately you guys have a hard job to do as you've got to pick up late where the other defectors left off
<IlyaHaykinson> first, i recommend that everyone, for every chapter, post an outline on the wiki.
<IlyaHaykinson> i already did that for chapter 3 and 4
<voxwoman> I like that lynx drawing!
<humphreybc> voxwoman: yea wolter drew that
<tacantara> Did some stuff a few days ago, more to follow
<IlyaHaykinson> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/DefaultApps and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Blueprints/Hardware
<IlyaHaykinson> but i would like to have everyone post their outline on a similar page.
<humphreybc> righto
<IlyaHaykinson> it'll help ensure that the detailed outline is consistent, logical, and complete.
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: could you email the list and tell them that?
<IlyaHaykinson> humphreybc: will do.
<humphreybc> sweet thanks
<humphreybc> cool well that's probably all I guess
<jaminday> ok all i've gotta run as well. humphreybc: keep me posted RE any chapters needing editing and I'll remind the team
<humphreybc> right catchya later
<voxwoman> It was lovely "meeting" all of you :)
<jaminday> ciao!
<humphreybc> so everyone just keep an eye on the mailing list
<humphreybc> voxwoman: how are you going to get the branch etc?
<voxwoman> I am working with Ilya on this
<humphreybc> have you got ubuntu installed and bzr set up and all that or do you still have to do that? or are you going to write stuff and give it to Ilya to put into the tex
<voxwoman> in order to get stuff done in a timely fashion, I'm probably writing in word (shudder) or ascii text files and sending it to Ilya.
<humphreybc> sweet
<humphreybc> that's all good
<voxwoman> I haven't ever touched LaTeX before
<IlyaHaykinson> i put a virtual machine online, by the way, in case anyone wants it.
<voxwoman> and it's been ages since I've done troff
<humphreybc> after alpha we're going to be running an "ubuntu manual learning day"
<voxwoman> cool.
<IlyaHaykinson> http://www.netapt.com/~ilyah/ubuntumanual/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.netapt.com/~ilyah/ubuntumanual/
<humphreybc> IlyaHaykinson: cool
<IlyaHaykinson> feel free to download. username is joe, and password is "joe"
<voxwoman> What I  want to do if it's OK, is read thru what you've got so far and give you some feedback.
<humphreybc> so voxwoman we'll basically be holding "classes" on latex, bzr, ubuntu, screenshot taking etc
<voxwoman> excellent. I need those.
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> yep feedback is good
<humphreybc> probably email it to the mailing list is best
<voxwoman> OK
<humphreybc> cool
<humphreybc> right well thanks for showing up everyone
<humphreybc> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 15:37.
<voxwoman> bye all
<IlyaHaykinson> ok, post meeting, quick question
<IlyaHaykinson> i'm working on the Evolution question right now
<humphreybc> yup
<IlyaHaykinson> was going to cover typical connection methods for email.
<IlyaHaykinson> and can't decide whether to do only IMAP and POP, or also do Exchange
<humphreybc> hmm
<humphreybc> I don't know much about exchange
<IlyaHaykinson> on one hand, Evolution supports Exchange, and Exchange is very very common in corp environments.
<IlyaHaykinson> on the other hand, most home users will not have it.
<humphreybc> i've only ever used POP/IMAP with clients, but now I just use gmail
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> well I would be inclined to give it a miss
<IlyaHaykinson> i guess we should have discussed home vs work in our "target audience" discussion...
<KelvinGardiner> Can you cover Pop and IMAP and link to exchange in the community docs.
<humphreybc> possibly, but I think if they have ubuntu in their workplace they'll probably have someone around to help with it
<IlyaHaykinson> alright. skipping other options for now then. will leave Exchange etc till a fugure vesion.
<IlyaHaykinson> i'll mention that there are other ways to connect to email, and to check docs for that :)
<humphreybc> oh yeah IlyaHaykinson just link to the community docs like KelvinGardiner said
<IlyaHaykinson> no need for community docs, i think it's actually described in the official evolution help.
<humphreybc> oh fantastic
<humphreybc> right i've put up the summary on the wiki
#ubuntu-manual 2010-01-31
<thorwil> 8bit for screenshots?
<thorwil> is that supposed to mean interlaced?
<thorwil> arg, indexed, of course
<thorwil> i'd like to have another way of saying "professional", where it's all about the attitude
<thorwil> not about being payed
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-25
<AbhiJit> hi
<AbhiJit> godbyk, ping
<AbhiJit> godbyk_, ping
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-26
<maxolasersquad_h> Is https://bugs.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual the best place to file bugs against the manual?
<Muscovy> That or http://bugs.ubuntu-manual.org
<maxolasersquad_h> Muscovy: Thanks
<hannie> Hi leoquant
<andrejz> Hello! I was wondering whether string freeze for 10.10 is in place, because i cannot find anything related to it with google
<nisshh> andrejz, not as far as i know just yet
<nisshh> godbyk_, ^^
<nisshh> godbyk, ^^
<godbyk> nisshh: no string freeze yet, afaik.
<nisshh> godbyk, right, i didnt think it was in place just yet :)
<thorwil> godbyk: http://uxmovement.com/content/6-surprising-bad-practices-that-hurt-dyslexic-users point 1 might interest you :)
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-27
<almufadado> Hi
<almufadado> Where is located the project for the screenshots ?
<nisshh> almufadado, http://launchpad.net/quickshot
<ChrisWoollard_> The project for the screenshots in Quickshot
<almufadado> Yes, to take the screenshots
<almufadado> I meant to see and upload the ones for my language
<almufadado> The quickshot apps ask for a project address
<ChrisWoollard> I think Quickshot deals with the screenshots, however I don't really know how it works
<almufadado> I installed the quickshot app
<almufadado> in the windows it ask for a project site
<ChrisWoollard> I don't know what it is.
<almufadado> the site address of the project ubuntu.maunal
<ChrisWoollard> I am just asking somebody that might know. If they respond
<almufadado> ok tnks
<almufadado> ok thanks
<ChrisWoollard> he doesn't have it to hand at the moment
<ChrisWoollard> I will look in the irc logs to see if i can find it
<godbyk_> nick godbyk-laptop
<godbyk-laptop> stupid slash key.
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<godbyk-laptop> Oh, how I've missed you, bash prompt!
<godbyk-laptop> Windows cmd drives me bonkers.
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: almufadado is the one looking for the quickshot address
<godbyk-laptop> Hey, almufadado.  Let me check the logs on my laptop real quick.  I don't think I've got it here, but I'll look.
<godbyk-laptop> almufadado: Looks like this might be the link to the qsproj file: http://flan.uguu.ca:5000/ump/10-04/%5Bump%5D10-04.qsproj
<godbyk-laptop> for the 10.04 edition.
<almufadado> ok
<ChrisWoollard> Thanks godbyk
<almufadado> I am going to browse in it to see
<almufadado> Bye Obrigado
<ChrisWoollard> I couldn't find that with a google search of the irc logs
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-28
<c7p> hello all
<c7p> godbyk: ping
<shrini> c7p: hello
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-29
<sebsebseb> nisshh: well we just talked about this else where, and I thought, let's join to see who's in here still and such
<sebsebseb> first time for me in here since uhmm 2010 some time
<nisshh> sebsebseb, sorry dude, but i really have to go clean out my gutters :)
<sebsebseb> nisshh: yes I know
<nisshh> im not joking
<nisshh> itll take me 4 hours
<godbyk> nisshh: cleaning out the gutters is no fun.
<nisshh> godbyk, especially not in 38 C heat :)
<godbyk> nisshh: I had to shovel some snow earlier today.  hopefully it'll continue melting, though. :)
<nisshh> and its not even at its peak yet
<godbyk> nisshh: yeah, it's hovering around 0 C here at the moment.
<godbyk> Warmest it's been in a few weeks.
<nisshh> ok bbl
<nisshh> cya
<godbyk> see ya, nisshh
<godbyk> Hey, sebsebseb. So what's up?
<sebsebseb> godbyk: not much
<sebsebseb> godbyk: also your name seems a little familur maybe
<sebsebseb> IRC nick
<godbyk> sebsebseb: We've spoken before, I'm sure.
<sebsebseb> yeah maybe
<godbyk> I recall you attended some of the ubuntu manual meetings, at least.
<godbyk> I don't recall if you worked on translations or not.
<sebsebseb> yeah I have been  around in the channel before, when chat about the manual and benjamin was here and such
<godbyk> it's been pretty quiet lately.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: no I never contributed to the Ubuntu Manual, and that's something I am not intending to do either,  because I want to help with another distro that is on the verge of being made :)
<godbyk> sebsebseb: fair enough. :-)
<godbyk> which distro is that?
<sebsebseb> plus anyway even before that, I wasn't planning on contributing to the manual either
<sebsebseb> godbyk: pm if you really want to know,  I don't want to say in here, because from expereince of mentioning other distros in Ubuntu channels,  some people get rather silly about that,  or maybe that's only the core support channels, but still
<godbyk> fair enough.  is it ubuntu/debian based? or based on something else?
<sebsebseb> based on something else
<godbyk> cool.
<sebsebseb> I hope it will gain quite a lot of users in the future, like next year and half, or two years or so,  Ubuntu needs some good competition on the desktop :)
<godbyk> Anything that improves the desktop experience is a good thing, in my book!
<sebsebseb> godbyk: well Unity won't improve the actsual proper Desktop Expereince, when other distros can't just provide it!
<godbyk> sebsebseb: What do you mean?
<sebsebseb> and also when developers of other distros, won't just want to contribute code to it many of them,  because of the copyright assignmetns
<sebsebseb> godbyk: I think Unity can improve the desktop expereince of Linux distros, once the issues with it are solved
<godbyk> Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the copyright assignment stuff.
<sebsebseb> if they don't get solved and other distros want to provide though, well they can fork
<godbyk> I haven't used Unity at all yet.  Have you?  How's it coming along?
<sebsebseb> also with CA upstream Gnome can't adopt Unity either
<sebsebseb> yeah I did Ubuntu 10.10 desktop edition, and then installed Lubuntu and Xubuntu and Kubuntu (I think I did as well)
<sebsebseb> and  installed Unity
<godbyk> Doesn't the CA only come into play if you want to contribute code to Unity (e.g., a patch or such)?
<sebsebseb> well after the Nivida driver,  so yeah I tried out on my desktop the 10.10 version, mainly with Lubuntu, sometimes Ubuntu, and yeah it was alright
<sebsebseb> then I ran Fedora 13 and 14 for a bit
<sebsebseb> then I tried out Ubuntu 11.04 alpha 1 for a bit
<sebsebseb> removing Fedora yeah
<godbyk> Unfortunately, I don't have time to play with the various distros anymore.
<sebsebseb> then I put on PC Linux OS,  which I am still on for now, but  I don't  know, I mean Ubuntu 11.04 alpha 2 out soon, and I might  just run it in Virtuablox 4.0 if I  set it up properly
<sebsebseb> and get Gnome Shell from the Gnome site,  their way, since this distro don't have any Gnome SHell previews in repos
<godbyk> Have you tried GNOME Shell yet?  How do you like it?
<sebsebseb> godbyk: ,but  whatever I run on this computer, untill the distro I want to use is more ready for me, well  is just tempory really
<godbyk> (I used to run the latest alphas and whatnot, but since I have to develop software for work, I need to keep my machine somewhat stable.)
<sebsebseb> yeah I did the Gnome Shell preview in  Mandriva 2010.1  so it was the 2.29.1 version or whatever, which is about a year old now
<sebsebseb> other computer still has Mandriva with that as well
<sebsebseb> it was nice, ran it for a while  nearly every day and yeah :) on this computer
<sebsebseb> then there was an update I think actsauly to a slightly later one, but  I want to run the like proper later one, but need to set things up so I can do that
<godbyk> cool.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: the distro I am waiting for,  won't get Gnome 3 by default, not in the first version, but I guess for the second it will have
<godbyk> I hope that Unity and GNOME Shell work out well.
<godbyk> When is GNOME Shell supposed to be released?
<sebsebseb> ,but yeah really I want to run Gnome 2 sometimes, KDE maybe sometimes, and Unity or Gnome Shell really, but need to set things up so I can do that
<sebsebseb> Gnome 3 last time I looked at their release scheduled 3.0 will be early April and then 3.0.1 at the end of April
<godbyk> Oh, wow. I didn't know they were so far along.
<sebsebseb> what I am worried about is Canonical and Unity
<godbyk> Oh, yeah?
<sebsebseb> with Unity they are being like an upstream
<sebsebseb> ,but
<sebsebseb> with copyright assignments and such, they aren't being like a proper upstream
<sebsebseb> an upstream is  meant to make the software, that then more than one distro can easilly use
<sebsebseb> godbyk: ,but well I told you the  issues about Unity already
<sebsebseb> also one or two guys or so tried to make Unity for Fedora
<godbyk> I guess it'll be interesting to see how it all works out.
<sebsebseb> ,but since they were using stuff that wasn't upsteram or whatever, they coudn't just do that
<godbyk> Did they fork Unity, try to build the existing Unity for Fedora, or try to write a Unity from scratch?
<sebsebseb> they tried to use the exixting unity as far as I  know, but becuse of how its made, certain things have to be done differnetly so that they wil work with Fedora and other distros for that matter
<sebsebseb> godbyk: maybe they were trying to port the 10.10 version yeah probably, in a way its better for other distros to wait untill after Ubuntu 12.04 before more seriosuly trying to port Unity
<sebsebseb> on the other hand
<sebsebseb> if that is done well
<sebsebseb> Unity will remain a Ubuntu only option in the mean time hmm
<sebsebseb> godbyk: and Gnome Shell will lack some features Gnome 2 has when it first comes out,  like the weather feature, but it should have that later
<godbyk> Ah, I see.
<sebsebseb> from a technical point of view I worry about Unity, already explained why
<sebsebseb> from a user point of view well
<sebsebseb> yeah its sort of intersting, not really what I would want to use a lot personally though probably, but yeah
<sebsebseb> godbyk: Linux distros have a great backend most of them really, you know :)
<sebsebseb> ,but
<sebsebseb> when it comes to interface, what makes people from Windows or Mac OS X, go wow? when they see a Linux user interface?
<sebsebseb> Compiz?  the cube and wobbery windows and such,  uhmm yeah sure for some of them, but then it gets boring or whatever
<godbyk> Agreed.
<sebsebseb> ,but from a like proper using kind of view, what makes people think,  wow this is so great so better than the Windows or Mac OS X interface?  I mean like Windows and Mac OS X's look compared to Gnome 2 and KDE 4 and stuff like that?
<sebsebseb> I can't think of anything
<godbyk> I use Linux as my primary OS these days.
<godbyk> I rarely have to use Windows.
<godbyk> But when I do, there are some things I miss about the Linux desktop.
<sebsebseb> there is a lot of choice of differnet user interfaces,  but out of everything I have tried if I am to be honest, there is nothing, that is like wow, this looks so much better  than Windows or Mac OS X
<godbyk> I really miss having multiple workspaces, for instance.
<godbyk> I don't know how people operate a computer without them now.  :)
<sebsebseb> and really I guess the closesest we got to that kind of thing, wow this is great, this is useable, this is awesome for useage, closesest we got at the moment, is well the Gnome Shell previews,  and the Unity's
<sebsebseb> I have mixed feelings when it comes to Unity
<godbyk> I take your point, though.  Most of the interface elements are the same across Linux, Windows, and Mac OS X.
<sebsebseb> yeah bingo
<sebsebseb> except well I guess it's mainly Gnome Shell out of the two,  as in the two, as in Gnome Shell and Unity
<sebsebseb> ,but its mainly Gnome Shell that is starting to do the something differnet that I am on about :)
<godbyk> We could design a new desktop experience from scratch (built on Linux).
<godbyk> But one problem with that is that a lot of people would be scared off due to the learning curve.
<godbyk> They grew up learning with Windows or Mac OS X.
<sebsebseb> I am not sure if I want the masses the main streame using any Desktop Linux distro anymore, because most  will just use for support if its needed, and never really understand what this kind of software is really about, software freedom and so on, and what  that is, and all that
<godbyk> So if we deviate greatly from those standards, then we'll get a lot of push-back.
<sebsebseb> in a way Unity isn't meant to exist, because Canonical were meant to help Gnome with Gnome Shell really
<godbyk> We'd have to ensure that the new interface was demonstrably better than the standard WIMP interface.
<sebsebseb> I mean they have had meetings with Gnome guys about Gnome Shell even  and so on
<sebsebseb> on the other hand, well  they wanted to do differnet things, and now well there will be two choices, for  Linux distros, well if others do Unity, but already been through  how they can't just do that at the moment
<sebsebseb> other distros
<godbyk> Interestingly, Linux makes a great OS for devices that require a domain-specific interface.
<godbyk> For example, your DVD player or digital video recorder.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: something that personalley annoys me is the ignorance on sites such as omgubuntu.co.uk at times, where people think,  that Gnome Shell is copying from Unity, which really isn't the case, for example
<sebsebseb> godbyk: also it seems that quite a few other distros want the Ubuntu Software Centre now, from stuff I been reading recently, and there's a distro callobration video, that I haven't seen properly yet
<sebsebseb> ,but I think UI for Software Centre has copyright assignements or the whole program even, so hmm
<godbyk> Yeah, the notion of 'Hey, x copied that feature from y,' has always bugged me.  Very often, the person complaining is just wrong.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: something that annoys me is the in fighting that distro communites may have,  and how some people get way to biased towards their choosen distro,  and basicalely won't even recommend other distros to people
<sebsebseb> I belive that choice is good,  and its good to tell someone about a few distros and give them distrowatch.com and let them choose their own distro :)
<godbyk> It's a rather personal choice. You just have to figure out which distro works best for you.
<sebsebseb> except many people don't do that
<sebsebseb> they are told to use Ubuntu and well thats it really
<sebsebseb> they remain as Ubuntu users for a very long time indeed, and maybe never even try another
<sebsebseb> godbyk: and some people even think Linux = Ubuntu
<sebsebseb> hmm maybe the Ubuntu Manual should briefly mention that other distros exist as well,  and mention distrowatch.com or something :D
<godbyk> I think the manual explains briefly what a distribution is.
<godbyk> I don't know that it does too much more than that.
<godbyk> It also mentions that Ubuntu is derived from Debian.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: so many things in Ubuntu that I don't like now
<sebsebseb> mainly since 10.04
<sebsebseb> I mean the Gnome 2 expereince
<godbyk> Oh, yeah?
<sebsebseb> the Gnome patching and removing of some features by default that should be there really, automatic shut down after a minute, shut down and log out in the system menu, that kind of thing
<sebsebseb> ,but
<sebsebseb> with Unity those patches quite a few of them, become sort of ok
<godbyk> Right.
<sebsebseb> since now its well Unity not the Gnome 2 interface anymore
<sebsebseb> ,but yeah things started going bad with 9.04 really, the patching and all that, and why? to try and make things more user freindly for newbies
<sebsebseb> then stuff like Ubuntu One and the Music Store that I woudn't personalley want really as well and so on.  the themes in 10.04 the new ones, that I still don't like that much really,  and so on,  well black one is better in 10.10 and in Unity
<sebsebseb> for me the last properly good version of Ubuntu was 9.04, and then things started to really go down hill,  altough GDM 2 and Grub 2 for example in 9.10 that was upstream Gnome, not Ubuntu, didn't like those for example
<sebsebseb> godbyk: however recently I put on a distro on my older brothers  lap top from 2005
<sebsebseb> he isn't technical he just wants to use a computer really,  Firefox, Facebook and such you know, type something maybe, listenin to music I guess, see photos, that kind of thing
<sebsebseb> godbyk: so guess what distro I went with?
<sebsebseb> in the end, after thinking about them and so on
<godbyk> I give up. :)
<sebsebseb> godbyk: hmm hint it wasn't Ubuntu, but saying Ubuntu would have been a good guess
<sebsebseb> at first I thought Mandriva or PC Linux OS, but then decided no to both of them
<godbyk> I bet it was Windows! ;-)
<sebsebseb> godbyk: no  and it's got XP on there as well, but not quite working properly, because yeah
<sebsebseb> I thought Ubuntu, but then,  I remember how all this stuff in recent versions that I don't like
<sebsebseb> and how even removing a lot of that, woudn't quite make Ubuntu be like before, I mean like 8.10 or something
<sebsebseb> godbyk: I wanted user friendly, and supported for quite a long time, so what distro?
<godbyk> Debian?
<sebsebseb> and one that woudn't give updates of later versions of software that he didn't really need, so yeah PC Linu OS was out, even though it's rolling release so supported for a long time
<sebsebseb> turns out I find this out more recently, that yes PC Linux OS is a rolling release, but its very much so about providing stable versions of software, so not the very latest this and that neassirely
<godbyk> I don't think I've heard of PC Linux OS.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: Linux Mint Debain  Edition came to mind, but I hadn't vm'd tried that one, so that was out
<sebsebseb> I decided to try Linux Mint 10 based on Ubuntu 10.10
<sebsebseb> so installed that on there, and well  yeah no Unity or OpenGL games and so on, because of a sucky SIS graphics card, so no Linux driver, but then later I put 9 on, but then remove it, nearly put 10 back on or whatever, and uhmm put 9 on again, and decide yep Linux Mint 9
<sebsebseb> I thought yeah, well ok had issues on the other computer  when it used to run Ubuntu 10.04, like it refusing to let anyone log in all of a sudden, and me not knowing why, but Linux Mint 9 is based on Ubuntu 10.04 which is 10.04.1 now, so surely it will be more stable and all that?
<sebsebseb> godbyk: Mint basically takes what is good from Ubuntu, and does nicer graphci and the codecs by default :)
<sebsebseb> so yeah Linux Mint 9, and I feel like I made the right choice :)
<sebsebseb> !ot
<manualbot> #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, for all Ubuntu-related support questions. Please use #ubuntu-offtopic for other topics. Thanks!
<sebsebseb> hmm I thought about doing that a while ago :D ^
<sebsebseb> I wanted to see what message it had, at one stage, it had a message that I came up with :)
<sebsebseb> godbyk: and we been off topic for a while, but well if this channel is like before, then yeah, people chat off topic in here every now and again
<godbyk> It's not too big of a deal as long as we're not disrupting other, relevant conversations.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: PCLOS is a nice distro,  no Gnome Shell in repo like I was  saying,  IRC community could be better, but well whatever, its not the distro I plan to do some proper community stuff for
<sebsebseb> godbyk: anyway this Satuday is special
<sebsebseb> in Ubuntuland
<godbyk> You're working on a new distro? What distinguishes them from the existing distros?
<sebsebseb> godbyk: no
<sebsebseb> godbyk: I am just planning on doing some proper community stuff for it :)
<sebsebseb> in a way already done some, but still early days
<godbyk> Ah, 'kay.
<sebsebseb> I want to help build up its future community more properly :)
<sebsebseb> except of course, depending on how things go,  it might not get much more of a community than it currently has, hmm
<sebsebseb> godbyk: Ubuntu has gone to hmm for me, the direction I am really wondering what's going to happen
<sebsebseb> I have mixed feelings, I am not sure about things
<sebsebseb> so yeah I can't just help loads of people with Ubuntu anymore from IRC,  like I did for about two years not that long ago
<sebsebseb> for example
<godbyk> Well, if you're using a different distribution, it makes sense to put your time and energy into supporting and improving it (instead of a competing distro).
<sebsebseb> godbyk: I belive though that, the distro I want to more properly support, that things will become pretty good in the future for it, its just going to take time, maybe two years yet
<sebsebseb> godbyk: well at the moment I am not using it
<sebsebseb> since it doesn't even exist yet,  plus when it first exists, well it won't be that useable for  people like me it seems, but later on :)
<sebsebseb> godbyk: sure we say comepting distros, distro compettion and all that, but
<sebsebseb> I belive in distro callobration :)
<godbyk> Well, 'competing' in a fairly loose sense. :)
<sebsebseb> distros working together more, the developers and communities, not all this in fighting, my distro is better than yours, no mine is better than yours, etc etc
<sebsebseb> and I mentioend something about that earlier well
<sebsebseb> godbyk: hmm except if I give one link, it should be obvious what distro I am interested in
<sebsebseb> and if I give another it woudn't be so obvious
<sebsebseb> ,but yeah on the subject of distro's working together
<sebsebseb> godbyk: I want to be someone in opensource/freesoftware someone more proper :)
<sebsebseb> in Linuxland I mean
<sebsebseb> been my major interest since  2004/3 so yeah :)
<sebsebseb> in Linux distro land :)
<sebsebseb> Desktop Linux land :)
<sebsebseb> godbyk: Do you know about Ubuntu User Days? Starts not that long from now
<godbyk> I don't know too much about it.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: well I am not so sure about Ubuntu itself the distro, and it's direction
<sebsebseb> ,but
<sebsebseb> anymore, but
<sebsebseb> some the community stuff  they do, is absoutly great still
<sebsebseb> some of the
<sebsebseb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
<sebsebseb> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
<sebsebseb> godbyk: and similar to that, but after a new release,  Ubuntu Open Week
<godbyk> Yeah, Ubuntu does do a lot of community-oriented stuff.  I like that.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: i'll take part in that a bit later some of it and :)
<sebsebseb> yeah, but it also has a massive user base
<sebsebseb> so yeah
<sebsebseb> godbyk: ,but quite a few of the other distros, well the distros are great, but the community is a bit hmm, and could be better
<sebsebseb> godbyk: and hopefuly I can help to make a good community distro, for the alternative distro that I think has a chance at becoming  pretty good as a distro, but also as a community
<sebsebseb> ideally I guess the more good distros with good communities, the better :)
<sebsebseb> Choice :)
<godbyk> Absolutely!
<sebsebseb> make a good community for the distro, I want to support, above,  I put community distro, but yes it  will be that :) 100% community
<sebsebseb> awesome no company to mess things up :)
<sebsebseb> godbyk: I don't like the idea of this
<sebsebseb> market share wise
<sebsebseb> 1.  Windows with most users  2.  Mac OS X  3.  Ubuntu with most Desktop Linux users by a long way, and masses type amount
<sebsebseb> 4. Linux Mint and maybe other distros based on Ubuntu 5.  BSD  6. other OS's
<sebsebseb> if most Desktop Linux users by a long way,  only or mainly use Ubuntu, instead of or  as well as other distros, well that's not proper choice
<sebsebseb> in a way its about as good as Windows having most users on the desktop
<sebsebseb> godbyk: number 1 most used Desktop Linux the number 2 and so on, it doesn't really matter that much,  what matters is that we have good choices at the top :) and a few of them, choice :)
<sebsebseb> So please Canonical with Unity and so on,  your now an upstream as well, so please play nicely as one, and help other distros use your stuff, if they want to,  Thank you :)
<sebsebseb> godbyk: I think things will work out with Gnome 3 and Unity and distros working together more and all that,  it will just take time.
<sebsebseb> godbyk: did you disappar on me?  anyway I think we are basically done chatting for now
<sebsebseb> and uhmm sorry idlers in a way for the off topic, but I guess nothing else would have been going on here anyway otherwise
<sebsebseb> and nisshh if you see this later or something, uhmm from one channel where as you know I was typing a lot and similar stuff, to here, hmm
<sebsebseb> oh well
<nisshh> sebsebseb, hehe
<godbyk> nisshh: Finished cleaning the gutters already?
<sebsebseb> godbyk: no maybe  he was missing you badly, and so needed to come back to say something to you :D
<godbyk> sebsebseb: I suspect you might be correct. ;-)
<sebsebseb> or to come back for you to say something to him, one or the other
<nisshh> godbyk, yeah, ages ago :)
<nisshh> godbyk, us aussies are used to manual labour in the heat, so we get it done fast :)
<nisshh> sebsebseb, you wish :)
<godbyk> nisshh: I see. So you were lying to me when you said four hours!
 * godbyk thinks nisshh was just trying to escape.
<nisshh> godbyk, well, it did take me an hour :)
<nisshh> i would not lie :)
 * godbyk is wondering is nisshh is perhaps a software developer.
<godbyk> That'd explain the inflated estimate.
<nisshh> godbyk, i swear, there is a cyclone coming down the coast, i had to clean out the gutters so crap didnt fly everywhere
<nisshh> and yes, i am a software dev
<godbyk> Sounds like fun.
<godbyk> (I'm a dev, too.  It's okay.)
<nisshh> hehe
#ubuntu-manual 2011-01-30
<c7p> godbyk: ping
#ubuntu-manual 2012-01-23
<CrustyBarnacle> Anyone know the status of releasing the manual?
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-22
<hannie> cqfd93, good afternoon. I just sent you an email
<cqfd93> Good afternoon Hannie!
<hannie> hi
<hannie> I just wanted to say that you are most welcome at the meeting this weekend
<cqfd93> I just got the message you sent to the ubuntu-manual list, thank you
<hannie> I'm trying to catch up with my emails (117 unread :(
<cqfd93> ouch!
<hannie> It appears that a spammer found the ubuntu-docs mailing list address
<hannie> So I can delete a whole bunch of them immediately
<cqfd93> :-(
<hannie> hey CarstenG
<CarstenG> Hi Hannie
<CarstenG> Did you have success with merging precise to quantal in Dutch?
<hannie> CarstenG, yes, more than 300 fuzzies, which is better than empty
<hannie> But I still must go through them befor approving them
<CarstenG> Great
<CarstenG> So you decided to publish the Dutch version?
<CarstenG> Nice to hear :-)
<hannie> CarstenG, I am currently applying for a job. If I get it, I will not have time for Quantal manual
<CarstenG> We are still working on translation of precise for German...
<hannie> Is it almost finished?
<CarstenG> Yeah, then good luck for your new job. :-)
<hannie> thanks, tomorrow I will hear if I passed the test
<hannie> I had a qualification training the past week
<CarstenG> Well, 518 strings to translate...
<CarstenG> And I can only make suggestion...
<hannie> ay, is there a previous completed German translation?
<CarstenG> yes, lucid was the last one.
<hannie> Like Lucid for instance
<CarstenG> :-)
<hannie> Have you merged Lucid with Precise?
<CarstenG> Not me, but yes, we did.
<hannie> ok
<hannie> CarstenG, I just have a look at doodle to plan the meeting for this weekend
<CarstenG> Yes, nice, that there are so many people who want to join.
<cqfd93> Hi CarstenG!
<hannie> Looks like Sunday 22:00 CET is the best option
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie!
<CarstenG> Yes.
<hannie> Only Sylvie can't be there then :(
<CarstenG> Saturday would be better IMHO, but Sunday is also ok.
<hannie> I will contact C7P and Kevin about this
<hannie> Tomorrow I want to close the poll
<cqfd93> What's 22:00 CET ? Is it 22:00 UTC ?
<CarstenG> CET is UTC+1h
<CarstenG> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_Time
<cqfd93> thank you
<CarstenG> so 22 CET is 21 UTC
<CarstenG> Ok, Iâm away for ca. 30 min...
<CarstenG> See you later.
<hannie> gottogo, see you all
<cqfd93> Hannie and CarstenG: I added 20:00 UTC and 21:00 UTC to my available hours
<CarstenG> Back
<CarstenG> Nice, Sylvie. So you can join :-)
<CarstenG> And typo hunting is very good.
<CarstenG> During the translation, you will find a lot small things.
<cqfd93> Yes, I can join
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-23
<CarstenG> Hi at all
<cqfd93> Hi Carsten!
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie.
<CarstenG> I think the French quantal version is nearly ready to publish
<CarstenG> Kevin uploaded today the title page.
<cqfd93> That's great news!
<cqfd93> I haven't heard from Kevin about that, maybe he's too busy.
<godbyk> CarstenG, cqfd93: The French quantal version has just been published. I just got the email that it passed review at CreateSpace.
<godbyk> The PDFs are available on our website and the printed version is now available via CreateSpace.
<godbyk> It should appear on Amazon soon.
<godbyk> I also just published the Spanish translation of precise-e2.  The quantal edition will be available in the next week.
<godbyk> It's nice to see such a variety of languages in the first dropdown list: http://ubuntu-manual.org/downloads
<CarstenG> Hi Kevin
<CarstenG> Great news!
<CarstenG> This motivates a lot to work on the German translation further.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Having the French translation team show you up like that? ;-)
<godbyk> CarstenG: Even the Russians are ahead of you with precise-e2. :)
<godbyk> Looking at the translation statistics, I'm quite excited to see how many translations are nearly complete!
<godbyk> I may have to get a larger bookshelf if this keeps up!
<CarstenG> yes... you are right... We are not really a lot people working on German.
<CarstenG> At the moment I guess me and Daniel are the only two..
<CarstenG> .And I can only make suggestions...
<godbyk> CarstenG: Yeah, I think a lot of depends on how many translators you have helping.
<CarstenG> Well, here you see our progress: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGermanTranslators/UbuntuManual
<godbyk> CarstenG: Who does 'ich' refer to in the translator column?
<CarstenG>  Ich = I
<godbyk> I know that much.. but who is 'I'?
<CarstenG> Its a placeholder, where a contributor can place his name.
<godbyk> Ah, okay.
<godbyk> I didn't know if it referred to a third translator who had created the wiki page or what.
<CarstenG> No, Daniel Schury created the page.
<cqfd93> Hi again, both!
<cqfd93> Just announced the great news to the Frenct team
<godbyk> cqfd93: Ah, excellent, Sylvie.  Be sure to thank them for me for all their hard work. And congratulations!
<cqfd93> I already thanked them.  Thank you!
<godbyk> I should have another couple translations of 12.10 published within the next week or so.
<cqfd93> Are we the first team publishing 12.10?
<godbyk> cqfd93: I think so.
<godbyk> The Slovenian team is up next. And I think Spanish might be ready, too.
<godbyk> cqfd93: Did you order a printed copy of 12.04e2 in French?  If so, how does it look?
<cqfd93> I already received my copy of 12.04-e2: it looks great (too bad it is just black and white)
<CarstenG> :-)
<cqfd93> Several co-workers asked me to order it for them
<CarstenG> Kevin, you see, the color version should become a option in future. :-)
<godbyk> I could publish color editions easily enough.. I just don't want people to get confused when they search for our book and find that it costs $30.
<godbyk> Let me see what the color edition would cost.. one moment.
<godbyk> For the English edition of quantal, it looks like it would be about US$20.
<CarstenG> As you know, I would upload both versions and let the user choose.
<godbyk> CarstenG: That's what I'd do. I just want to make if obvious why the one is more expensive.
<godbyk> I have to go to a meeting now. I'll be back in a couple hours.
<godbyk> If I don't talk to you guys before then, I hope you see you at the meeting this weekend!
<cqfd93> see you later Kevin!
<CarstenG> How do they calculate the price? Do they count all pages for the color version, or only the pages which have really color and let the black/white pages at a lower price?
<CarstenG> See you Kevin!
<godbyk> They count all the pages the same (as color).
<godbyk> see ya!
<teolemon> i just reported this
<teolemon> not sure whether it's in plans
<teolemon> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/1103679
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 1103679 in ubuntu-manual "Broader distribution of Ubuntu Manual (Kindle Store, Google Play, iBookstore)" [Undecided,New]
<godbyk> Hello, teolemon. Thanks for collecting those URLs. I'll check them out.
<godbyk> teolemon: I would like to produce our manual in a few different e-book formats but I haven't had time to write the code to do that yet.
<teolemon> now that we've finished the French translations
<teolemon> we're preparing a media blitz
<godbyk> Cool.
<cqfd93> ;-)
<godbyk> teolemon: Thanks for all your help with the French translation. It's a lot of work!
<teolemon> and we want to get it out on the largest number of ways
<godbyk> I'm going to submit it to the Ubuntu Software Center, too, but it tends to take quite some time before it shows up there.
<teolemon> not English
<teolemon> whatever
<godbyk> (I think there are only a few reviewers for the Software Center and a lot of submissions.)
<teolemon> and also, I was wondering about the ETA for the Ubuntu Software Centre
<teolemon> ah ok
<teolemon> it will need to use the private ppa/ purchase thingy
<teolemon> for speed of publication reasons
<teolemon> right ?
<teolemon> we were wondering whether further pushing back the announcement to include software centre links
<teolemon> or to move ahead without
<godbyk> teolemon: I would go ahead without it.
<godbyk> teolemon: The last manual I published through the Software Center took 2-3 months.
<teolemon> eeek
<godbyk> Yeah.
<teolemon> that's a joke :-/
<godbyk> I know that they're trying to improve the process, but right now it's quite slow.
<godbyk> I submit the manual and then just wait.
<teolemon> I hope they have a speedier process for Apps
<godbyk> As far as I know, it's the exact same process.
<teolemon> otherwise, Ubuntu will never get to be a premium platform for devs
<teolemon> ...
<godbyk> I'm going to look into creating a PPA for all of our manuals so that people can more easily install them in Ubuntu.
<teolemon> not sure where they are installed afterwards
<teolemon> is there a way to make a shortcut appear either in the launcher
<teolemon> or on the desktop
<godbyk> There is.
<godbyk> When we install them through the Software Center currently, the files get installed to a subdirectory of /opt.
<godbyk> And icons are installed in the dash.
<teolemon> I'm also going to talk the French team into including it in the localised iso
<godbyk> Cool.
<teolemon> I think the AppStore submissions should be faster
<teolemon> except perhaps for Apple
<teolemon> that might go as far as rejecting it on ideological reasons
<teolemon> (worth trying though)
<godbyk> I'll look into it.
<godbyk> I know that some e-book readers can handle PDFs, but I wouldn't want to send them a PDF that's designed for a full-sized piece of paper.
<godbyk> I think the text would be too small on the e-book reader and the reader would have to zoom in all the time.
<godbyk> So I'll have to see what size of PDF works best with those readers.
<godbyk> I've started writing some code to convert our manuals to ePUB format, but that'll take a bit longer.
<teolemon> yes
<teolemon> the right way to do it
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-24
<sagaci> just posted a notice to the planet re:u-m meeting this Sunday
<CarstenG> Hi Joel
<CarstenG> where did you post this?
<sagaci> joelp.me/blog
<sagaci> I just went off Hannie's mailing list announcement, to give anyone a couple of days notice
<sagaci> who knows, maybe a couple of extra editors/proof-readers
<CarstenG> Nice, Thanks Joel
<sagaci> no worries
#ubuntu-manual 2013-01-27
<slickymaster> Hello, all. It's my first time so I'm kind of lost. How do I get to help?
<thorwil> hi slickymaster. there will be a meeting later today, so can expect more people actually around
<thorwil> slickymaster: i have to run for a bit
<slickymaster> @ thorwil. Ok I'll wait, then and come back later. Can you tell me the hours?
<meetingology> slickymaster: Error: "thorwil." is not a valid command.
<manualbot> slickymaster: Error: "thorwil." is not a valid command.
<thorwil> slickymaster: 9:00 PM UTC. really gone now :)
<slickymaster> thaks
<slickymaster> thanks
<teolemon> godbyk: i was wondering whether you were taking advantage of the amazon affiliate program ?
<godbyk> teolemon: Not at the moment. Right now I have the ubuntu-manual.org site directing people to the createspace.com site for purchasing printed books.
<godbyk> teolemon: Otherwise, I wouldn't know which of the amazon.com/.de/.co.uk/etc. sites to direct them to.
<teolemon> ok
<teolemon> we've started the media blitz 15 min ago
<teolemon> do you track downloads/pageviews ?
<godbyk> We do.
<teolemon> then we hope to melt your tracker :-)
<godbyk> lol. good luck! :-)
<cqfd93> hi hannie!
<hannie> hey to all
<rickero> hi hannie!
<CarstenG> Hi Hannie
<rickero> ... and hi all :-)
<cqfd93> hi all!
<JasonO> Hello Hannie, hello all.
<CarstenG> Hi  Enrico
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie
<hannie> Nice to see you all. Welcome! Let's wait for Kevin who will be chair
<CarstenG> Hi Jason
<godbyk> Hello, everyone.
<rickero> hello!
<hannie> hey godbyk
<cqfd93> hello!
<CarstenG> Hi Kevin
<godbyk> I'll give everyone two to three more minutes to arrive before we get started.
<JasonO> Hi CarstenG
<hannie> ok
<godbyk> You can find the meeting notes at <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLwhH9I_Q9rZw98tovNy97MnC43bBkaGuXZmHz6r3C4/edit>.
<hannie> Looks good
<hannie> godbyk, I see nicknames I do not know. Perhaps slickymaster and teolemon can introduce themselves in the meantime?
<godbyk> Why don't we go ahead and get started.  We can start with some introductions.
<godbyk> I'll see if I can remember how to get meetology to play along.
<godbyk> #startmeeting.
<meetingology> Meeting started Sun Jan 27 21:06:14 2013 UTC.  The chair is godbyk. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<godbyk> Welcome everyone!
<godbyk> This is the first meeting during the Raring cycle.
<godbyk> #topic Introductions
<godbyk> Since we have some new faces here, why don't we do a quick round of introductions.
<godbyk> if everyone could just write a sentence or two about who they are and what role they currently play (or hope to play) in the Ubuntu Manual Project, that'd be great.
 * hannie editors coordinator
 * thorwil pokes slickymaster
<godbyk> I'm Kevin Godby. I do a little bit of everything. I work on the LaTeX formatting code, maintain the website, and publish the manuals.
<cqfd93> I'm Sylvie Gallet - I started using Ubuntu in early 2009
<cqfd93> I started doing translations on Launchpad in August 2012, and joined the Ubuntu French Translators Team in September 2012
<cqfd93> I'm now a member of the Ubuntu Manual Team, and editor of the French translation
 * rickero is enrico rosina (french translators team) - had some busy weeks generating um with latex for the fr team. (hi all) 
 * teolemon is Pierre, member of the French team. 
<hannie> The French are well represented!
<CarstenG> I'm Carsten, come from Germany. Started with the Ubuntu Manual round about one year ago. I do some translation and was screenshot editor for the Quantal release. And I help a little bit with LaTeX stuff...
<cqfd93> :-)
<JasonO> I'm Jason Odoom and I've just arrived from hiatus and sm now back with the Manual Team. I used to do Marketing/Publicity.
<JasonO> *am
<hannie> teolemon, Pierre = Pierre S?
<teolemon> yup
<hannie> ok
<godbyk> Since thorwil isn't speaking up, I'll point out that he creates the title pages and covers for our manuals. He also handles other artwork for the manual and our website.
<godbyk> It's nice to meet everyone and good to see some new people here.
<CarstenG> ... and some are missing...
<godbyk> #topic Updates on Getting Started with Ubuntu 12.04 and 12.10
<godbyk> I wanted to give a few updates on our previous manual releases.
<godbyk> We've had a lot of new translations recently.
<hannie> quite a few, actually  http://doodle.com/556xqbacyxeuuea38g5h7cia/admin?#table
<godbyk> For 12.04, we've now released the manual in English, Dutch, French, Slovenian, and Spanish.
<godbyk> And for 12.10, we've released the manual in English and French.
<godbyk> A big round of applause and thanks to all the translators!
<godbyk> By the way, if the translation editors would like to write a short release note in their language, I'd be happy to post it to the Ubuntu Manual Facebook page.
<hannie> And those who helped the translators
<CarstenG> Yeah, congratulation to them!
<godbyk> Just email the release message to me at kevin@ubuntu-manual.org and I'll get it posted.
<godbyk> #topic Switching from Lulu.com to CreateSpace.com
<godbyk> You may have also noticed that we've switched printers.
<godbyk> We were having some difficulty in printing our manual with Lulu.com and were unable to figure out what the problem was.
<godbyk> We've switched to CreateSpace.com which seems to be working well so far and has a few added benefits:
<CarstenG> Lulu itself ;-) SCNR
<godbyk> 1. The price of the printed manuals is cheaper.
<hannie> godbyk, why could they print the previous versions but not the last one?
<godbyk> 2. The manuals are now available on Amazon.
<godbyk> hannie: That's a great question that neither I nor the lulu.com tech support team can answer (apparently).
<hannie> ok
<CarstenG> Hannie: They could print the last one. I have 12.10 here ...
<godbyk> If anyone does notice any problems with the printed manuals from CreateSpace.com or Amazon, please let me know.
<hannie> CarstenG, that was not printed by lulu
<godbyk> CarstenG: Well, sort of. 12.10 printed okay for me, but then it failed for you the first time. Then we got it to print for you but it failed for the next person to purchase it. So it was kind of hit and miss.
<CarstenG> Is was...
<godbyk> In any case, I'm hopeful that switching to CreateSpace will resolve the printing problems we were having previously.
<godbyk> Now to get to the topic we've all been waiting for...
<godbyk> #topic Plans for Getting Started with Ubuntu 13.04 (Raring cycle)
<godbyk> If you take a look at the meeting notes at <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HLwhH9I_Q9rZw98tovNy97MnC43bBkaGuXZmHz6r3C4/edit>, you'll see a proposed release schedule.
<godbyk> The proposed schedule is the same as what we used for 12.10 (Quantal) but with the dates shifted accordingly.
<hannie> This may also be useful: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule
<godbyk> If there were any milestones in 12.10 that you thought came too earlyâthat is, you wanted to spend more time editing or somethingâlet me know and we can try to adjust the Raring schedule.
<godbyk> I'll give everyone a couple minutes to look over the proposed schedule.
<godbyk> If you have any questions or concerns about it, please voice them now.
<hannie> Should authors wait for the Beta Release on March 23?
<hannie> # March 28
<godbyk> hannie: I'm afraid if we wait that long, the editors won't have much time to do their part.
<hannie> True, so Alpha in VirtualBox is what they can use?
<godbyk> If we want to release the manual on the same day as Ubuntu 13.04 (25 April), then that only gives us a month between beta 2 and the release date to write, edit, and proofread everything.
<godbyk> hannie: They should be able to run Ubuntu in a virtual machine, yes.
<CarstenG> Do we have a chance to get the manual into the iso?
<hannie> CarstenG, I'm afraid the iso must be ready before our raring manual is out
<CarstenG> Well, I dont know, wenn they generate the final iso...
<CarstenG> At Final Freeze? 18th april
<godbyk> CarstenG: The timing doesn't work out for us and they're pretty strict about what gets in the ISO, too.
<CarstenG> Sure, I think so... It was just an idea.
<hannie> We can aim at getting it in USC as soon as possible
<rickero> Would it be possible to include a link to the "on line" manual inside the ISO ?
<godbyk> Something I'm also going to look into is creating our own PPA and releasing the manuals through there.
<hannie> ah, that is a good idea!
<godbyk> That way we don't have to wait on the USC process.  We just have to have people add our PPA.
<CarstenG> Hannie: most of the time for this is not in our hands... kevin told..
<CarstenG> Yes, a PPA sounds good-
<CarstenG> .
<hannie> About the feasibility of the release date:
<godbyk> I will look into setting up a PPA and also ask around to see if there's a way we can fast-track our USC submissions.
<hannie> it depends on if we have enough authors/editors to do the job
<hannie> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdGd1LVl5X2hvNkg2SEZiVzZ2RnYtWHc#gid=0
<hannie> C7P (John) will contact authors of the previous version
<hannie> hey JC, welcome
<CarstenG> Hi John
<godbyk> After c7p hears back from the authors, we'll make a list of open positions and post them to our website and try to find people who will fill those slots.
<hannie> website=mailing list?
<godbyk> hannie: Both.
<hannie> People may also add their name to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdGd1LVl5X2hvNkg2SEZiVzZ2RnYtWHc#gid=0
<godbyk> Are there any objections or comments on proposed milestone dates?
<Bobbert> I have added my name where I used to author, but I can fill any changed positions. So sorry I am late.
<CarstenG> One thing for the schedule: I think we should have more time for review...
<hannie> thanks for adding your name, Bobbert
<CarstenG> During translation of precise, I found some things, which are not as they are mentioned in the manual...
<CarstenG> I guess other translators have the same impression?
<Bobbert> Mistakes do happen because the manual has been gradually re-written for the newer versions of Ubuntu.
<godbyk> CarstenG: So you want more time in the Editing phase?  Or the authoring phase?  Or somewhere else?
<CarstenG> editing phase...
<hannie> Ideally, the editors will correct mistakes. But it is impossible to release without any errors
<godbyk> Well, it's okay if the editing extends into the indexing phase a bit.  We have a little leeway there.
<godbyk> If we move up the authoring deadline so the editing can start earlier, then changes may still be made in Ubuntu at the last minute.
<godbyk> The authors should carefully review their assigned sections and test all the procedures on the latest version of Ubuntu.  They should update any out-of-date instructions.
<godbyk> The editors should do the same.
<godbyk> Hopefully with at least two people reviewing each section, there won't be too many errors that slip past.
<Bobbert> but for example the "getting online" or "troubleshooting" sections are hard to do that in.
<hannie> If we can have an author/editor pair for each chapter/section, it can be done
<godbyk> Bobbert: Some of the longer sections may need to be broken up into smaller assignments, I think.
<CarstenG> Yes, John, but troubleshooting will hopefully not have so much changes... It should stay nearly untouched
<hannie> godbyk, that is already the case (see spreadsheet)
<hannie> CarstenG, very true. Some chapters need more attention than others
<CarstenG> yes, I thought sometimes, the text was only copy pasted from lucid to precise (e.g)
<hannie> Much of the text can be used in a newer version
<godbyk> Do you feel that the editing phase was rushed during the Quantal cycle?
<hannie> Editors have to wait until authors are finished, so it depends
<hannie> Not all editors had finished their chapter in time (Ubuntu Desktop)
<hannie> *authors
<godbyk> With the proposed schedule, the authors have about two months and the editors have two weeks.
<hannie> And Jim suggested we should not have the same person working both as an author and an editor
<godbyk> I would say we shouldn't have the same person working as an author and editor for the same section of the manual, at least.
<godbyk> It's hard to see your own mistakes.
<hannie> right, but if we cannot find enough people we have to accept it
<godbyk> hannie: We should then move the editors around if that's the case.
<godbyk> But I don't think we should have someone editing the same section they authored.
<hannie> yes, moving around is an option
<CarstenG> Welcome back Enrico
<Bobbert> We could write one section and edit another, though.
<hannie> Yes, that is the idea
<rickero> oops... been disconnected
<godbyk> If there are no objections, I'll add these milestone dates to Launchpad.  If we need to adjust them a bit later, we can do so.
<hannie> Good
<godbyk> I'll have c7p contact the authors from the 12.10 release and see which of them would like to return for the 13.04 cycle.
<godbyk> Then I'll post job openings for the empty positions to our website, the mailing list, Facebook, etc.
<CarstenG> When  I look to the list, I see much editors, but only a few authors...
<hannie> I have already done a call for editors, and had several responses
<hannie> CarstenG, that's because I did my call before c7p
<godbyk> I would suggest that any authors and editors start familiarizing themselves with any updates in Ubuntu 13.04 that affect their sections of the manual.
<godbyk> We already have a raring bzr branch on Launchpad, so people can start writing and editing now.
<hannie> godbyk, good idea, Perhaps this should be mailed to the list
<godbyk> hannie: I'll do that.
<slickymaster> good night, all. Sorry for being late
<godbyk> G'night, slickymaster. Thanks for coming!
<rickero> hello
<godbyk> #topic Any other business
<godbyk> Are there any other topics that we should discuss?
<godbyk> Does anyone have any questions, comments, concerns, criticisms, etc. that they'd like to raise?
<hannie> perhaps slickymaster can introduce himself?
<slickymaster> It's my first time here, but I really want to contribute
<CarstenG> Hi slickymaster
<slickymaster> How can I help?
<CarstenG> How yo want to help?
<CarstenG> you
<CarstenG> :-)
<hannie> slickymaster, you can become an author/editor/translator
<cqfd93> A question to authors/editors:
<cqfd93> translators really had a hard time translating and reviewing very long paragraphs (some of them have more than 3,000 characters)
<cqfd93> is it possible to split them into several smaller ones (only for paragraphs that will be new in raring)?
<hannie> JasonO, how about you? Any aspirations to become an author or editor?
<CarstenG> Sylvie, I have done some splittings until now
<godbyk> cqfd93: Agreed. CarstenG has been splitting up some of the larger paragraphs in the past couple days.
<slickymaster> I'll be glad to help anyway you think would advisable
<cqfd93> great news!!!
<CarstenG> e.g. Thunderbid
<cqfd93> I remember that one...
<CarstenG> there was two paragraphs, nearly one page...
<hannie> slickymaster, did you have a look here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApS28NMLnYJXdGd1LVl5X2hvNkg2SEZiVzZ2RnYtWHc#gid=0
<slickymaster> no, I'll do it now
<hannie> You may add your name to a chapter or section if you like
<CarstenG> Sylvie, build the raring, and have a look to it. Tell me if its better noe.
<cqfd93> what, exactly, is an editor's job?
<CarstenG> You proofread the content
<Bobbert> and make sure instructions work
<CarstenG> And check if the instructions and descriptions are right.
<godbyk> cqfd93: Proofreading, ensuring that the text and instructions are factually correct, making sure the writing is easy to read and understand, etc.
<hannie> proofread for errors and check the contents
<hannie> see if there is any inconsistancy
<hannie> cqf you would be very good at that
<slickymaster> and the work would exactly what, translating, making sure instructions work, something else?
<rickero> ok thanks, it was not clear for me what is the difference between author and editor
<slickymaster> would be, sorry the typo
<cqfd93> I'm very good at finding typos...
<hannie> slickymaster, translating is another job. Here we are talking about making the English version of the manual
<CarstenG> slickymaster: Translation starts first after the release. At the moment we need authors and editors.
<JasonO> hannie: No, none at all. Atleast for this release.
<hannie> JasonO, but you do want to help promoting?
<slickymaster> Alright, got it. What is specifically the work of an author / editor?
<JasonO> Yeah and other jobs that are available.
<CarstenG> So Slickymaster: Do you know the new raring well? new features? You like to write good descriptions?
<CarstenG> Then you are an author.
<hannie> godbyk, I am sure you have a job for JasonO
<CarstenG> If you like to proofread and check, then you are an editor.
<godbyk> hannie: I could definitely use JasonO's help!
<slickymaster> I haven't tried it yet
<CarstenG> It's always the first time. :-)
<JasonO> godbyk: Awesome. :)
<godbyk> JasonO: It'd be great if you could help come up with some ideas on how to promote our manuals when we release new ones (English and translations).
<hannie> slickymaster, is there any subject you are particularly interested in, like Browsing the web, or Getting online for instance
<godbyk> JasonO: Also, we'll need help attracting some attention to fill some author and editor roles soon.
<teolemon> we've just done a media blitz for French
<teolemon> there was some French specific stuff
<JasonO> godbyk: Alright, I'll work on it.
<teolemon> but i'll list the steps we took
<hannie> teolemon, any idea if may people download the French translation?
<godbyk> JasonO: I'll email you soon with some more info, too.
<slickymaster> well, I'm a java developer, professionally.
<JasonO> godbyk: Thanks.
<teolemon> may people ?
<hannie> #many
<hannie> *many ;)
<slickymaster> Getting online and Browsing the web, no matter which one
<slickymaster> I would have to what?
<hannie> slickymaster, just have a look at the spreadsheet and see if there is a chapter/section you like to help with (author or editor)
<hannie> To all, feel free to add your name to the spreadsheet
<rickero> about the "download" question: I think the manuel is not visible enough. When I select "Applications => Help" menu, nothing tells me about it.
<hannie> Ok, so there is work to do for JasonO
<slickymaster> As I'm starting, I think it would be advisable to help as editor, to get a better knowledge how everything works, don't you think so?
<CarstenG> rickero: Where are you?
<rickero> CarstenG: what?
<hannie> slickymaster, please send an email to our mailing list and I send you some information
<CarstenG> "Applications => Help" where is this?
<teolemon> we're making sure that as many ppl as possible will download it: we've spammed: forums/planet/wiki/google+/facebook/twitter/the translator's website
<teolemon> (not spammed of course, but you see my point)
<teolemon> and we may get an article in linuxfr.org
<hannie> sounds good. Let's hope it will spread fast
<godbyk> teolemon: Nice!
<rickero> CarstenG: oh i don't have unity... it's the applications menu. But I think if you type "help" in the dash it will be the same
<JasonO> Do we ever have an exact number of how many times the Manual has been downloaded? Or maybe that can be implemented in the future?
<teolemon> we plan to make it standard in the French iso as well
<slickymaster> hannie: ok, do you want me write anything in particular in the email, or that's not necessary?
<hannie> rickero, when you type help you get the official Desktop Guide (Ubuntu docs)
<hannie> slickymaster, it is just so I have your email address
<godbyk> JasonO: I do have those numbers, though there's a bit of a pain to extract at the moment.
<rickero> hannie: that's what I'm saying, nothing suggests me to download a manual
<godbyk> rickero: True. There's no download link within Ubuntu at the moment.
<slickymaster> hannie. I'll do it now
<hannie> ok, so you want a link to the manual to come up when you type help in the Dash
<godbyk> rickero: The best we have at the moment is that you can find the manual in the Software Center.
<CarstenG> Enrico: Ah I see. you mean, we should place a note in this help manual to our UM?
<hannie> slickymaster, thanks
<rickero> exactly... this is what I meant. There can be downloads only if people see something about the manual
<godbyk> rickero: Yes. Right now the best we can do is to do a great job marketing it and making it popular and well-known.
<godbyk> JasonO is going to help us with that. ;-)
<CarstenG> So we need someone, who will update the ubuntu-docs package...
<JasonO> :)
<godbyk> CarstenG: That'd be the Ubuntu docs team (see #ubuntu-doc).
<slickymaster> hannie: Done.
<godbyk> In addition to the marketing and making the manual well-know, we need to ensure that the manual is accurate and up-to-date.
<godbyk> So we need to be careful when we're writing and editing to make sure the manual is correct and easy to read, etc.
<hannie> Quality is very important indeed
<hannie> I also would like to get more feedback, so we know what people think of our manual
<CarstenG> Sure, this was my point with the review process...
<rickero> kevin: you also said : "any questions, comments, concerns, criticisms, etc"... I have 2 things in mind":
<hannie> I heard from someone who has a project in Africa that she was very happy with the printed version
<hannie> because there is not always electricity to read the screen version
<CarstenG> Hannie: You mean pleia2?
<godbyk> hannie: For requesting feedback, direct people to email feedback@ubuntu-manual.org.
<rickero> 2 different persons asked me if it would be possible to have the texts "justified" in LaTex
<hannie> CarstenG, right
<CarstenG> Hi Tony7
<CarstenG> -7
<hannie> hey TonyP better late than never ;)
<TonyP> sorry - I really need to be reminded earlier
<CarstenG> Enrico, what do you mean with "justified"
<CarstenG> ?
<godbyk> rickero: It is but there are a couple issues.  (1) It means we have to do a bit more editing to prevent overly long lines, and (2) justified text is actually a bit more difficult to read.
<godbyk> rickero: The ragged-right text is a bit friendlier.
<TonyP> I agree
<rickero> CarstenG: Justified = adapted so each line has th same lenght
<CarstenG> ah ok
<hannie> godbyk, I think that was my preference too (justified)
<rickero> kevin: I can live with the current display. just giving the feedback you asked
<Bobbert> I must go have lunch, so bye everyone. I will get writing soon :D. It would be good if the Manual was mentioned somewhere on the Ubuntu site, though to be honest.
<godbyk> hannie: Yes, I've heard a few other people ask about it, too.
<godbyk> Bobbert: Thanks for coming!
<slickymaster> I agree with rickero. Justified text is easier to read
<hannie> But like rickero says, it is only meant as feedback
<godbyk> rickero: I understand. Thanks!  Was there a second piece of feedback?
<hannie> bye Bobbert
<cqfd93> I agree with rickero
<JasonO> Bye Bobbert
<godbyk> slickymaster: Actually, the opposite is true from what I've read. With justified text, the word spacing is variable so it's more difficult for your eyes to follow along the line.
 * hannie will leave in a minute
<godbyk> I'll end this meeting before I forget but everyone is welcome to hang around and chat more.
<godbyk> Thanks, everyone, for coming!
<godbyk> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Sun Jan 27 22:30:06 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-01-27-21.06.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-manual/2013/ubuntu-manual.2013-01-27-21.06.html
<slickymaster> godbyk: I was just speaking for myself. Maybe it's just a question of getting use to
<godbyk> I'll post the meeting notes and IRC logs to the mailing list soon.
<hannie> ok guys and girls, see you all
<godbyk> See you later, hannie.
<slickymaster> hannie: I'l be waiting for your mail
<cqfd93> Bye hannie!
<rickero> ok by all those who leave
<TonyP> Bye hannie
<teolemon> we're already #5 and #16 in the amazon linux section :-)
<teolemon> http://www.amazon.fr/gp/bestsellers/books/407642/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_4_last
<godbyk> teolemon: Nice!
<godbyk> teolemon: As far as I can tell, there have been 8 copies of Premiers pas avec Ubuntu 12.04 sold and 2 copies of 12.10.
<teolemon> weird
<teolemon> 12.10 is ahead though..
<CarstenG> Kevin: Only a general question: Do you plan to update you new build script?
<godbyk> The two copies of 12.10 were both sold today, it says.
<godbyk> CarstenG: If I get time, yeah.
<CarstenG> :-)
<godbyk> CarstenG: I've been just using the Makefile lately.
<rickero> it's Pierre who bought them :-)
<teolemon> then the amazon ranking algo might only take the last 24hr into account
<teolemon> or smg
<teolemon> lol
<teolemon> i bought 12.04
<godbyk> teolemon: That could be.
<cqfd93> I bought 2 copies of 12.10 yesterday :-)
<godbyk> cqfd93: Through Amazon?
<cqfd93> yes
<godbyk> Ah, okay.
<teolemon> a guy told me he ordered one today
<godbyk> It must take an extra day before they show up for me, then.
<teolemon> ok
<cqfd93> I also bought 3 copies of 12.04
<cqfd93> through amazon.fr
<CarstenG> Ok, at all, I have to leave. It's nearly midnight here...
<CarstenG> Good night and see you
<godbyk> cqfd93: Do you just have a lot of empty bookshelves you're trying to fill? ;-)
<rickero> hahah here too... good night Carsten
<cqfd93> yes, time to go to bed!
<godbyk> Good night, CarstenG.
<cqfd93> godbyk: just a few co-workers interested :-)
<godbyk> cqfd93: Do you highlight your name in the credits before giving them the book?  ;-)
<cqfd93> Sure!!!
<godbyk> May as well take credit for it!
<cqfd93> in fact, I just show it to them :-)
<godbyk> I told a friend of mine that I published half a dozen books in nearly as many languages over winter break. ;-)
<cqfd93> ;-)
<godbyk> It sounds more impressive that way.
<rickero> ok all... I'm also leaving. good evening to those who still have one, good night to the others
<godbyk> Good night, rickero!
 * cqfd93 is leaving.  Bye everybody!
<godbyk> See you later, cqfd93.
<slickymaster> It's time for me to leave, also. For me it's the begging of my collaboration with you guys, so I'll be looking forward to get hannie's mail in order to get me started. Until next time, I wish you all a very good night
<godbyk> G'night, slickymaster. Thanks for joining our project. We appreciate your help!
