#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-08
* Pendulum changed the topic of #ubuntu-accessibility to: Ubuntu Accessibility Team https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility for more info | http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility to join the mailing list | Channel IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - Updated every hour | Next Team Meeting, November 10, 2010 21:00 UTC. Meeting agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<Pendulum> AlanBell: see I did get it done :P
<cprofitt> Pendulum: just curious where we want to put the header guidelines...
<cprofitt> my thought was as a sub-page of the accessibility wiki, but I wanted to confirm
<Pendulum> hmm... good question
<Pendulum> accessibility wiki makes sense and we can move them if it turns out they're better suited somewhere else?
<cprofitt> ok -- I will make it there
<cprofitt> how many folks do we have in accessibility? Are there any folks who would mentor BT folks towards assisting accessibility?
<Pendulum> we don't have a huge number right now
 * cprofitt nods
<cprofitt> I might take the accessibility part and put it under another FG until we grow a bit then
<cprofitt> perhaps under the dev fg... 
<cprofitt> or bugs
<cprofitt> there are really two parts -- building accessible apps,... testing accessibility
<Pendulum> nigelb and charlie-tca both do bug stuff
<Pendulum> AlanBell does some testing
<cprofitt> yeah...
<cprofitt> and we have an active bugs-FG and dev-FG
<cprofitt> hgghd is going to join BT to mentor the bugs-fg
<MichelleQ1> I can do what I can to encourage testing, too.
<MichelleQ1> Can't help with technical specifics, but I *can* help think of things that need to be tested for varying abilities, etc.
<cprofitt> MichelleQ1: cool... and you are joing as well...
<cprofitt> I am thinking we can get a sep. accessibility FG formed, but perhaps not right away
<Pendulum> yeah
<MichelleQ1> just holler when/if there's something I can do to help.  :-)
<Pendulum> I'd love to say we have definite mentors, but right now i think so many of us are over stretched that it's not necessarily possible
<cprofitt> Pendulum: I understand...
<cprofitt> so I think I get some -dev and -bugs folks working with accessibility
<cprofitt> get your team better staffed
<Pendulum> :)
<cprofitt> then we can make those folks mentors once they know your team well enough 
<cprofitt> and you guys approve of them
<cprofitt> slow, but steady pace
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> TheMuso: is there a chance you and I can do a quick meeting at some point between now and Thursday? (you name a time and I'll figure out how to make it :) )
<charlie-tca> hm, first natty bug filed against the alternate image. No audio for screen-reader install
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: will you be able to make the meeting Wednesday?
<Pendulum> have the alternate images ever had screen reader support?
<charlie-tca> I don't know, but it an option available during the installation process
<Pendulum> ah, ok
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: yes, I will make the meeting
<charlie-tca> my thought is if you give me the option, it should work
<Pendulum> yeah, I agree there
<charlie-tca> yay! got david barth adding a11y to unity bugs
<Pendulum> :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-09
<Pendulum> MichelleQ1: were you the person who was going to work on the list of accessibility dos/donts?
<MichelleQ1> I can, if you'd like
<Pendulum> let me look at the blueprint because I thought we had it assigned to someone
<MichelleQ1> if it's been assigned to me, that's fine.  No problem
<Pendulum> okay, it was you and me
<Pendulum> I'm going to copy you on an e-mail back to one of the people who wants it. I just wanted to make sure I was copying the right person :)
<MichelleQ1> OK, sounds good
<Pendulum> (one of the OEM guys who is working on the developer manual)
<MichelleQ1> we can work it out.  :-)
<Pendulum> yeah
<webczat> Hey.
<Pendulum> hi webczat 
<webczat> I have a problem, i have my administrative account with orca started, then i created my new account and relogged, then started orca. when i configured it i logged out and then nothing. anything worked but i lost all sound. hmm additional info, i have sound at login too.
<webczat> what it is? i have pulse
<webczat> impulse :d
<webczat> ??
<charlie-tca> webczat: If I understand correctly, you logged in, created a new user, restarted, and the new user now has no audio ?
<charlie-tca> You have to check the box in Accessibility -> start orca on login
<webczat> no, i created a new user, logged out, logged into the new account and sound was on, i started orca and it was ok, i logged out and sound was gone completely, even after login to my old account.
<webczat> and, orca is enabled already on login
<webczat> and works in general
<webczat> ?
<charlie-tca> ouch
<charlie-tca> I am sorry. That is an audio issue instead of an accessibility issue, I believe.
<webczat> no, because if i don't start orca then it wowowoworks
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-10
<webczat> Hey.
<webczat> I still have problems
<webczat> With this sound thing, if i have orca enabled on my login screen and it works, i log into my admin account and i have orca enabled and it works, i create an account with sound permissions and i log out, i have orca on login screen, i log in to the new account and i have sound. if i start orca and it works, and then i log out, sound (the whole sound on the whole system)  is completely gone. If i log in to the test account and don't start orca t
<webczat> what happens with my sound when i start orca on the second account?
<leoquant> Hi webczat i have no idea, but stay tuned, maybe someone else can help you with this.
<webczat> ugh
<webczat> agh
<webczat> is it pulse problem?
<AlanBell> meeting in 40 minutes or so . . .
<Pendulum> yes
<charlie-tca> thanks for the reminder
<charlie-tca> first install - unity on the ubuntu image - fails for nvidia
<charlie-tca> can't get anything to work
<Pendulum> oh dear
<charlie-tca> no way to install hardware nvidia driver
<Pendulum> is this the new unity based on compiz?
<charlie-tca> can't read the information at the bottom of the gdm screen, text is light gray on white
<charlie-tca> no, I don't think compiz is there yet, but I could be wrong
<charlie-tca> All I could tell for sure is that the windows are now integrated into the panel
<AlanBell> compiz unity isn't available yet
<charlie-tca> but, at least the install worked from the alternate image today
<charlie-tca> Maybe the desktop image will work tomorrow
<charlie-tca> too early to get shook up about it
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I saw something where Luke said he was installing it. maybe in -desktop. so it may not be public yet, but it's there for natty.
<AlanBell> oh good
<AlanBell> I think the compiled package in a ppa doesn't exist yet (or didn't a couple of days ago) but the code is available in a bzr branch
<paul_h1> meeting time?
<AlanBell> yes
<Pendulum> one sec, I'm just switching machines
 * AlanBell just did an unscheduled laptop reboot
<Pendulum> AlanBell: exciting :)
<Pendulum> if y'all will just bare with me for a moment...
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: TheMuso IdleOne dutchie any of y'all around?
<dutchie> Pendulum: o/
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 10 21:04:31 2010 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Yep.
<AlanBell> o/
 * charlie-tca waves
<Pendulum> TheMuso: ooh. wasn't sure if you'd be up yet :)
<TheMuso> Yeah, its just after 8 AM here.
<Pendulum> AlanBell: do we need to do anything special for it to do list of attendees?
 * TheMuso needs make a habbit of adding these meetings to his calendar... Once he finds a suitable GTK application to do so.
<AlanBell> Pendulum: nope, it will record everyone who speaks
<Pendulum> win
 * charlie-tca thinks orage is not accessible yet
<paul_h1> hi all
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: Thanks, will check that one out.
<Pendulum> #topic Review Blueprint from UDS-N & Natty Narwhal Cycle Plans
<meetingology> TOPIC: Review Blueprint from UDS-N & Natty Narwhal Cycle Plans
<Pendulum> so the main point of this meeting is to go over the blueprint from UDS, especially with an eye for making a schedule of it
<Pendulum> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+spec/ubuntutheproject-community-n-improving-accessibility-devel-and-info is our main blueprint
<Pendulum> Another relevent blueprint for scheduling stuff I suspect is https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/packageselection-dx-n-unity-a11y which I think has now been broken down into milestones?
<TheMuso> Yeah the unity stuff has been broken up into a few different blueprints.
<TheMuso> But David hasn't yet looked at the a11y spec since I updated the whiteboard.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: am I missing any others that will have information that will be relevent to our scheduling?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: I don't think so.
<Pendulum> okay, has everyone had a chance to look over the blueprints if you hadn't looked at them already?
<AlanBell> just re-reading the unity one
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: Yeah not accessible, and doesn't work with google calendar.
<TheMuso> Which for me is a requirement, should have made that clear.
<charlie-tca> I will keep looking. I can't find one that works right either
<Pendulum> paul_h1: have you looked at the blueprints before? do you have any questions?
<TheMuso> Evolution is buggy, I am able to make it crash a bit, and the calendar is not 100% accessible as it is, thuderbird+lightning is a non-starter, too difficult to get around, as just about everything is rendered as a web page...
<Pendulum> paul_h1: you're the only person here who I don't remember being either in person or remote at UDS so I want to make sure you're on the same page as everyone else :)
<paul_h1> Pendulum: not had the chance to read them yet. I was listening to the unity session at UDS though
<charlie-tca> sunbird was good, but it went away in maverick
<AlanBell> there is also https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-m-accessibility-reorg to flick through for stuff done/not quite finished from last cycle
<TheMuso> charlie-tca: But that was essentially lightning was it not?
<charlie-tca> That's what they say. It was a good stand-alone calendar that worked much better than lightning
<TheMuso> Big shame.
<AlanBell> ok, so scheduling of action items
<paul_h1> I can't even install lightning, just tells me it isn't compatible with the version of thunderbird I've got
<AlanBell> how do you want to do that? start with priority items? put dates against things?
<Pendulum> I'd like to do a little bit of both
<charlie-tca> paul_h1: it will require at least an up to date maverick. I haven't tried for some time, though
<Pendulum> I suspect a good number of the action items (especially mine ;-) ) are going to actually lead to more action items within the cycle, but I'd like to get what we have scheduled if possible
<Pendulum> for people who aren't here and have action items, I'm going to talk to them separately :)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: am I correct that the goal for having the basic framework done and in Natty is alpha2?
<charlie-tca> We should probably have at least milestones for planning purposes. 
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: exactly :)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Correct.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Keyboard nav should be done by alpha 1.
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: can we set that you'll have test cases done by Alpha 1? (feel free to grab other people including me to help you with that)
<charlie-tca> yes, at least the first ones
<charlie-tca> Will be writing at least 8
<Pendulum> that way people can start to do testing of keyboard navigation with impairments in mind then
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: should we break down your action item into specific test cases?
<Pendulum> or into numbers?
<charlie-tca> no, not yet, since I don't know for sure how many will be possible. 
<Pendulum> ok
<charlie-tca> I will keep trying to run through them and if I can get a number, I can let you know
<Pendulum> so for alpha 1 can I say "preliminary test cases written" and for alpha 2 "final test cases written"?
<charlie-tca> yes, I think so
<Pendulum> that way we can define "preliminary" and "final" by however seems best to do them as things start gettind done
<Pendulum> Alpha 1, btw is December 7th
<charlie-tca> I think we aim for two or three for Alpha1
<charlie-tca> We have to have a full working image to do all of them
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I'm not thinking about testing. I'm just thinking about having the stuff written so people know how to test for them
<charlie-tca> Can't really write it unless we know it will work. Otherwise, they will fail the test since it doesn't work as written.
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I think you and I should talk about this outside of the meeting just so I can get some stuff straight and we can see what we can do since we won't have any accessibility features really in natty until alpha2 and we need most things written before then so people can test the heck of it starting with alpha2
<charlie-tca> yes
<Pendulum> moving on...
<Pendulum> because I suspect this may help somewhat with test cases & testing profiles...
<Pendulum> dutchie: AlanBell what do you think you can do with personas in terms of getting them done?
<dutchie> er
<Pendulum> AlanBell: was Charline's feedback useful?
<AlanBell> well I am planning to get the Faisal one done in the next couple of weeks
<AlanBell> charline's feedback was good
<Pendulum> would it be reasonable to hope for rough drafts by alpha1 and then final by alpha2? (hopefully a little earlier than alpha2, but so we can set definite milestones say alpha2)
<AlanBell> I need to do more of the fleshing out of the character as Charline said and get it published on the wiki
<Pendulum> aka rough drafts for all of them
<AlanBell> yes, rough drafts for all of them and one finished for alpha 1
<Pendulum> dutchie: are you going to be able to help or is school eating all your time now?
<Pendulum> (no pressure either way, I just want to know :-) )
<dutchie> not likely to have time to help until end of term
<dutchie> which is the 4th
<Pendulum> of december or january?
<dutchie> dec
<Pendulum> so you probably can't do much with rough drafts, but could help on final, correct?
<AlanBell> wow, that is a *huge* christmas break!
<Pendulum> dutchie: ^^
<dutchie> yes
<dutchie> on both counts
<dutchie> except it's not a break
<AlanBell> :)
<Pendulum> okay, I'm assigning myself to help AlanBell with rough drafts of personas and assigning dutch to help with the final personas :)
<Pendulum> dutchie: what's your name in launchpad?
<dutchie> jshholland
<Pendulum> okay
<Pendulum> in other scheduling stuff, I've just talked to czajkowski who is going to try to contact alejandra about wiki & website accessibility this weekend
<Pendulum> so if people can send me feedback/links to bugs/etc. about those things, I'll pass them to her :)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: I have down as an action item that I should be talking to johnlea on design about relevent keyboard shortcuts and what will be needed. Should I also be coordinating that with someone on desktop team? (not sure if it'd be you or someone else)
<charlie-tca> bug 637927
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 637927 in ubuntu-rs-forum "Neprecizni rezultati pretrage (affects: 3) (heat: 9)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/637927
<charlie-tca> no
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: who was the no aimed at?
<AlanBell> the bug
<charlie-tca> the bug i screwed up
<Pendulum> okay, just checking :)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Probably someone on the DX team, not sure who though.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: okay. i'll ask around :)
<Pendulum> okay, i'm looking at the list and the rest of the items are either assigned to people who aren't here or to me. So somehow I don't think they need to be discussed here unless someone else sees a pressing need
<AlanBell> want any help with the wordpress blog?
<Pendulum> nope. all I'm going to do is register a wordpress blog and then ask charlie to go through the various default wordpress themes that can be used and let me know which is the most accessible :)
<Pendulum> just do a wordpress.com one because that's how most teams do it
<AlanBell> great
<Pendulum> yep
<Pendulum> hope to have that all done within the next week, in fact
<Pendulum> anyone have anything else regarding blueprints that they want discussed?
<Pendulum> going once...
<Pendulum> going twice...
<Pendulum> okay. moving on
<Pendulum> #topic Any Other Business
<meetingology> TOPIC: Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> o/
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: go for it
<charlie-tca> We now wiki pages for Specifications, Software, and Goals under the development header
<charlie-tca> It would be nice if we could update them as we go. If a goal is reached, remove it completely. 
<charlie-tca> If a piece of software is available somewhere and we want it, add it.
<charlie-tca> Also, can we update the Contacts page, please/
<charlie-tca> ?
<charlie-tca> And, lastly, is there anything I missed in the headers that we really want?
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I'm not sure we have anything else for the contacts page atm
<charlie-tca> yup, that's a mouthful fast
<charlie-tca> done now
<Pendulum> I mean, I can put myself down as contact for locos & webpage (and set the webpage to be the blog), but not sure about forums at all
<charlie-tca> It can wait, as long as we got the important ones down.
<Pendulum> ok
<Pendulum> and if anyone thinks of other contacts they want on that page, please let us know!
<charlie-tca> At least now people will know there is a contact for each team area, right/
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> we may want to list out more specifically that I'm general contact and TheMuso is really the devel contact
<Pendulum> otherwise the wiki work is all looking good to me
<Pendulum> :)
<Pendulum> anyone else have anything?
<Pendulum> okay, I'm guessing not
<Pendulum> I wanted to let y'all know that tomorrow I start fortnightly meetings with jono. If there are pressing concerns that you think need to be raised with him, please e-mail or PM me. I can't promise to bring everything up with him, but I do want y'all to be aware that the meetings are happening :-)
<AlanBell> excellent
<TheMuso> Sweet.
<charlie-tca> wow
<Pendulum> anything else?
<TheMuso> Not from me.
<Pendulum> okay. then I'm guessing we're done!
<AlanBell> not from me
<jono> Pendulum, any chance we can change our time tomorrow - I have taken if on vacation, but like normal I am doing my calls in the morning
<jono> can we do the call in the morning pacific time?
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 10 22:07:39 2010 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2010/ubuntu-accessibility.2010-11-10-21.04.moin.txt
<Pendulum> jono: yeah. I'm free. just let me know what time you'd like to move to :)
<charlie-tca> Thanks, Pendulum 
<jono> Pendulum, let me check
<jono> Pendulum, 10am Pacific?
<Pendulum> jono: sounds good
<jono> Pendulum, thanks!
<jono> Pendulum, just ping me on IRC around that time and we can figure out how to talk best
<Pendulum> jono: will do :)
<jono> thanks Pendulum!
<jono> btw, folks, if you agree with OpenRespect, see http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonobacon/5164728083/
<jono> would be cool if you could add something to your blogs
<jono> could be a good way of socializing the message :-)
<AlanBell> jono: is there an accessibility angle to openrespect?
<jono> AlanBell, not really, just a conduct angle
<jono> oops
<Pendulum> jono: I was going to poke you because I'm not sure the sidebar on open respect is easy to read for people who need high contrast
<jono> Pendulum, oh darn
<jono> what would I need to do to fix it?
<Pendulum> either make the type darker or the background a little lighter, I think
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: have you looked at open respect yet?
<Pendulum> jono: I should be clear that I'm not talking about the button, I'm talking about on the actual site
<jono> Pendulum, you mean the 'SHARE THE RESPECT' type font?
<jono> or the main body text?
<Pendulum> jono: the "this site was formed..." bit
<jono> Pendulum, gotcha
<Pendulum> (under "Why does this exist"
<Pendulum> )
<Pendulum> I mean, I've got decent eyesite and it looks blurry to me due to the contrast issues
<jono> Pendulum, I think it is a little darker now
<charlie-tca> I have, and dented about it, too
<charlie-tca> I did think all italics is harder to read
<charlie-tca> Italics look pretty, but are much harder for a lot of people to read. The slant of the letters and the way some of them are formed make for more difficulty reading them.
<charlie-tca> I guess I didn't really care so much about that, though. I think it is very important we try to get word out about this very topic.
<charlie-tca> (and if I could get all of the ubuntu websites and wikis to be as clear reading, I would be thrilled.
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I agree on getting word out being more improtant. I just figured that any little bit that helps people access it is also good ;-)
<charlie-tca> it is. But I can't even print the leadership code of conduct on my printer. At least jono's sites are readable
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: can you mention the problem with the leadership code of conduct in #ubuntu-locoteams?
<Pendulum> and file a bug on it?
<charlie-tca> bug 670927
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 670927 in ubuntu-website "Can not print the "Leadership Code Of Conduct" (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/670927
<Pendulum> they're planning on making it signable by the end of this cycle so they should know if it's not accessible
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I've poked some more people about it now :)
<charlie-tca> great! thanks
<charlie-tca> 9 bugs about the website we would like to see some action started -
<charlie-tca> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.tag=a11y&field.tags_combinator=ANY&
<charlie-tca> field.has_cve.used=&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.affects_me.used=&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_branches.used=&field.has_branches=on&field.has_no_branches.used=&field.has_no_branches=on
<charlie-tca> Well, let me get that in a smaller url
<CaioAlonso> charlie-tca, about the printing bug, would a print-only stylesheet solve this?
<charlie-tca> I don't know stylesheets enough to say. 
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: http://2tu.us/2svl
<CaioAlonso> charlie-tca, it's a different set of rules of style to the page for a different media
<charlie-tca> 9 a11y bugs about the website
<charlie-tca> but that doesn't mean I know how to make it print
<CaioAlonso> charlie-tca, as of now, the light theme is using the same styles (fonts, font-sizes, etc) for the screen and print, probably creating a different stylesheet suited for printing would solve this
<charlie-tca> will a print-only stylesheet allow the ***IK:DML:JK  frame to send all the text to the printer?
<charlie-tca> Right now, the text is cut off after the printer gets the first page of it
<charlie-tca> I don't know how to get it to page the printer, I guess. I think that is what is needed, but I don't really know.
<CaioAlonso> I don't have a printer with me here, but printing the page to a pdf gives me a nice version of it, are you using the light-wiki theme?
<charlie-tca> Every website with frames prints the same way, one page of text out of the printer, and then it is done
<charlie-tca> Try printing to a real printer, not a file
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: the feedback I"m getting is that when it's signable, it will be on launchpad and be like the CoC
<CaioAlonso> charlie-tca, does the wiki uses frames?
<charlie-tca> That doesn't solve the issue of printing it. The text is about a 6pt font, which is very hard it see
<charlie-tca> CaioAlonso: I think it does, that is what I find when the printout dies that way
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: it's also apparently on the wiki somewhere (the link you gave was to ubuntu.com)
<charlie-tca> Maybe it is a different problem with it, but normally if the printout dies, it is due to frames
<charlie-tca> ubuntu.com is a wiki
<CaioAlonso> charlie-tca, I agree with you about the font size, in that case a stylesheet just set for printing would allow increasing the fontsize, removing the menu and footer and maybe organizing the text to a better column width
<CaioAlonso> oh, sorry, didn't saw that the link was on ubuntu.com, thought it was on the wiki
<charlie-tca> CaioAlonso: the problem is, if the text is increased, less characters will print out
<CaioAlonso> charlie-tca, on a single page, yes, but is it a requirement for the text to fit on a single page?
<charlie-tca> not for me, it isn't. Even at the font size they are using, it won't
<CaioAlonso> I'm going to post on the bug report about the printing stylesheet
<CaioAlonso> and about the printer issue, I'll try to print it on the weekend and see what I get
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: have you seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LeadershipCodeofConduct
<Pendulum> (which confused loco people beacuse you talk about the wiki and it is in fact on the wiki as well and they were thinking "but the wiki had larger type, etc."
<charlie-tca> no, I haven't
<Pendulum> it's the exact same thing just in wiki format
<charlie-tca> I see. Printing now, let's see what it does
<charlie-tca> That one prints
<charlie-tca> so, how do we get ubuntu.com fixed? 
<Pendulum> dunno
<Pendulum> but I'm not sure that bug is going to stand with people since there is an alternate format :-/
<charlie-tca> If canonical is interested in accessibility...
<CaioAlonso> I'll see if I can contribute to the lp:ubuntu-website code, then I can make the alternate stylesheet for it
<charlie-tca> There is no reference from one to the other. It is still an a11y issue.
<charlie-tca> I think this is what is so frustrating. The whole concept of "it is somewhere else too. just search long enough..."
<CaioAlonso> charlie-tca, about the code of conduct?
<charlie-tca> no, about trying to get things fixed when you can't really find out who to even notify
<AlanBell> getting website stuff changed is *hard*
<AlanBell> #ubuntu-website is the channel in theory
<AlanBell> and there is a mailing list on lists.canonical.com
<AlanBell> https://lists.canonical.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-website
<MichelleQ1> I'm sorry I missed the meeting earlier. 
<Pendulum> MichelleQ1: no worries :-)
<Pendulum> you didn't miss anything particularly exciting
<Pendulum> I'll want to talk to you about some stuff later tonight if you'll be around, but not right now
<Pendulum> (just scheduling stuff)
<MichelleQ1> I'll be around later tonight - 8-9ish?
<Pendulum> sounds good
<MichelleQ1> it's a date then!
<Pendulum> ooh lala :P
<charlie-tca> this gets funnier with each comment on the bug report now! It is incomplete because it looks fine in the browser,...
<charlie-tca> lol
<charlie-tca> Do we really have so many people working on websites that do not understand english?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-11
<Pendulum> hiya MichelleQ1 
<Pendulum> do you have time for a quick chat now?
<Pendulum> (or, really in 5 minutes)
<MichelleQ1> Pendulum: yup, whenever
<MichelleQ1> :D
<charlie-tca> New wiki design is in place for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility - Warning: Orange banner
<Pendulum> yeah, not great on my eyes, but not horrid
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: looks like they ignored everything suggested
<Pendulum> they've muted some of the orange which helps me. it's not so bright
<Pendulum> otherwise, yes I think they've ignored everything suggested
<AlanBell> they have ignored a lot of stuff, but not quite all of it
<AlanBell> and it is more than suggested, it was stuff coded up and offered in a bzr branch
<AlanBell> and they have not installed the simple mente theme
 * AlanBell is mildly irritated
<charlie-tca> Worse yet; can't read links on Xubuntu wiki now. The orange link on blue header blurs too much
<Pendulum> i've just switched to the ubuntu theme in my preferences
<Pendulum> not great, but better than what's there now
<charlie-tca> yes, unfortunately, you must login to make that work. Anyone that really needs it may not be able to even see the login button
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> jono: I have made some fairly clear offers of help regarding the wiki and accessibility, including patches, but they don't seem to be welcome
<AlanBell> I am running out of places to make offers of help and to express my mild irritation at the whole thing
<AlanBell> e.g. https://lists.canonical.com/archives/ubuntu-website/2010-October/001064.html
<jono> AlanBell, offers to who?
<AlanBell> newz2000 and in bug reports on launchpad and on the ubuntu-website mailing list
<charlie-tca> I think I reached my limit after yesterday
<AlanBell> jono: and in #canonical-sysadmin a number of times
<jono> AlanBell, hmmm, what was the reason for the rejection of help?
<Pendulum> jono: they don't give any. they just don't respond as far as I can tell
<AlanBell> I have no idea
<jono> hmmm
<jono> thats not acceptable
<Pendulum> jono: shall we add this to our call agenda?
<jono> AlanBell, can you mail me with a summary of what has happened so far and I will look into next week
<jono> Pendulum, we can cover it, sure
<AlanBell> it just went live this afternoon
<AlanBell> will do jono, thanks
<jono> AlanBell, sorry for the negative experience
<jono> I will do my best to get this rectified
<jono> and thanks for the offers of help
<UndiFineD> jono :) http://gizmo.do/9AB4wl
<jono> UndiFineD, heh, I saw that
<UndiFineD> thanks man
<Pendulum> jono: 5 minutes?
<jono> Pendulum, yup
<jono> Pendulum, msg me your phone number to call
<Pendulum> done
<jono> Pendulum, all set?
<Pendulum> yep
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: are you around?
<charlie-tca> only for a minute. 
<jono> charlie-tca, would you be free to join our call now for a few mins?
<jono> just to talk through some plans
<jono> should only be five mins or so
<charlie-tca> okay
<jono> charlie-tca, can you message me your phone number?
<jono> and I will dial you in
<jono> or skype id
<charlie-tca> I don't have skype
<mhall119> charlie-tca: you there?
<AlanBell> having a rather more productive conversation than before in #ubuntu-website now
<UndiFineD> great AlanBell 
<Pendulum> AlanBell: that's wonderful!
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-12
<mhall119> is there a way for users to define their own stylesheets in a browser for accessibility changes?
<mhall119> kind of like how you can specify font settings that get applied over whatever the page says to use
<Pendulum> if things aren't hardcoded, yes. but generally people don't like to use them because they break things and make it all look really ugly
<Pendulum> (or at least, it's possible in firefox)
<mhall119> ok, so we'd have to provide users a way to enable/disable accessibility stylesheets
<nigelb> Pendulum: Possible in a lot of browsers
<nigelb> (we are taught that when we learn about precidence of styles :) )
<mhall119> nigelb: the question was how to tell the browser to apply the accessibility styles, and when not to
<Pendulum> so you could set everything at high contrast but you would have to view every website that way
<Pendulum> there's no way to specify just for certain pages (afaik)
<mhall119> there are CSS media types for things like "speech" instead of "screen", are these used by browsers?
<Pendulum> i don't actually know
<mhall119> if so, we can produce different styles for the Ubuntu web theme for these media types
<UndiFineD> http://www.devseo.co.uk/blog/view/pure-css-speech-bubbles
<mhall119> also not sure if this is implemented in any browsers: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/aural.html
<UndiFineD> scrool to the bottom of the page on my link to see examples
<mhall119> UndiFineD: not what I was talking about
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: i can't even read that link as the page is giving me a headache :-/
<mhall119> Pendulum: how about something like tihs; http://www.w3.org/Style/Examples/007/alternatives.html
<mhall119> it works in Firefox at least
<Pendulum> mhall119: your link was fine
<mhall119> not chrome, but I'm going to assume people who need accessible stylesheets won't be using chrome
<mhall119> is that a safe assumption?
<Pendulum> tbh, I have no idea. I don't know what charlie-tca uses and he's generally our best test on accessible style sheets
<mhall119> okay, I'll look for him later, but I think if we can make an alternate, accessible style what people can switch to easily, that'll solve a lot of our ally bugs
<UndiFineD> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-css3-speech-20041216/ <-- is this the whole specification ?
<Pendulum> yes!
<Pendulum> mhall119: I would be totally in favour of that!
<Pendulum> mhall119: also, talk to AlanBell because I think he may be willing to help
<mhall119> ok, I'm hoping the design team will give us some CSS to use
 * AlanBell reads back
<UndiFineD> I will spend some time tomorrow to get such a page working
<AlanBell> oh, ok. I think where I got on this was that newz2000 was going to let me write an accessible stylesheet and he agreed to probably not reject it
<mhall119> lol, good enough for me
<UndiFineD> I will put it on my own page, trying to get faisal spoken ;)
<mhall119> actually, I think we might want more than one accessible stylesheet for the different profiles
<AlanBell> my initial suggestion was to install the simplemente theme as an optional theme
<AlanBell> he would prefer to incorporate the features of that theme into the light theme like the navigation and screen reader support. I am not sure how practical that is.
<AlanBell> and he talked about a stylesheet loaded through means as yet unknown, which would increase the font size and contrast
<AlanBell> mhall119: is reset.css just something from the wiki theme or is it all over the place?
<AlanBell> mhall119: problem with getting the browser to select an alternative stylesheet is that it doesn't appear to be sticky, so you go to a page of the wiki, choose your fancy high contrast stylesheet, go to another page and  you are back to square one
<mhall119> AlanBell: reset.css doesn't sound familiar to me, so maybe just the wiki theme
<mhall119> hmmm, not using the same sheet across pages on the same site would suck
<Pendulum> AlanBell: i'm fairly certain there's a way that should be able to make it sticky since other sites can
<Pendulum> or are you talking about browser specific style sheets rather than stylessheets offered by the website itself?
<AlanBell> Pendulum: I could easily be wrong
<AlanBell> I went here in firefox http://www.w3.org/Style/Examples/007/alternatives.html selected one of the other sheets, hit refresh and it flipped back to the initial view
<Pendulum> hmm
<Pendulum> because the BBC definitely can get it right as the ouch! stylesheets stay across the site when you change pages
<Pendulum> and considering how much they've messed up the ouch site otherwise...
<AlanBell> I can only see "basic page style" and "no style" on the ouch site
<nigelb> mhall119: well, generally user stylesheets are first
<mhall119> nigelb: how do users assign sytlesheetS?
<nigelb> mhall119: users will have to create it.  Like body {font-size: 20px;} in a mystyle.css and ask browser to use that
<nigelb> the exact options vary
<nigelb> I've heard some browsers allow per site user stylesheets
<UndiFineD> http://userstyles.org/styles/15509
<UndiFineD> it is a browser plugin
<mhall119> it would be nice if browsers would send a "Enable Accessibility" Header attribute
<UndiFineD> ok, this works really well: http://imtranslator.net/Translator-For-Firefox-ImTranslator_v_3_3_5.asp
<UndiFineD> just tested it quickly
<UndiFineD> mhall119, what can be done is this: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7607669/speech_useragent.png
<mhall119> UndiFineD: I don't really want to resort to making people setup custom UAs
<UndiFineD> no this is a step in between, i would rather offer something correctly
<UndiFineD> without changing
<UndiFineD> by the user
<AlanBell> done a bit more on http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/faisal
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-13
<UndiFineD> nice alan
<AlanBell> nigelb: I need a picture of someone who could be Faisal
<AlanBell> got any friends who would be a model?
<charlie-tca> AlanBell, Pendulum : any hints for learning how to use dasher?
<AlanBell> start with it going slowly!
<charlie-tca> how/
<charlie-tca> How do I get it to go to direct mode?
<AlanBell> no way to do that from the gui, launch it with dasher -a
<AlanBell> dasher -a direct
<charlie-tca> oh! Thanks
<charlie-tca> I got it going slowly, that didn't seem to help
<UndiFineD> you can select directmode in preferences
<UndiFineD> not sure how that works
<charlie-tca> I did that, but it doesn't seem to work
<AlanBell> if you have it in direct mode you then need to give a window focus then with the mouse go back to the dasher window and start typing
<AlanBell> if you have focus follows mouse that is probably going to be inconvenient
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: you can't on linux. at least you couldn't last I tried
<charlie-tca> Oh, that too?
<Pendulum> it might be easier to learn to use in non-drect mode
<Pendulum> (I don't know because MacOS is where I learned to use it and it only has direct mode)
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/faisal.pdf < very draft still
<Pendulum> btw, I will be in and out today as I'm going to a baby shower! :)
<UndiFineD> oh that is nice Pendulum 
<UndiFineD> dasher is .. strange
<UndiFineD> but fun to play with
<charlie-tca> but needed for some people
<charlie-tca> It is a default accessibility app
<Pendulum> I <3 Dasher (at least when it works), but it takes a little getting used to
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: it is?
<UndiFineD> :)
<charlie-tca> yup
<Pendulum> tbh, though, if you're like me and use it sometimes completely instead of typing, you pick it up quickly
<charlie-tca> I will learn it... Might be a l-l-l-long process, though
<AlanBell> you can get quite fast with it if you crank up the speed and know your alphabet well!
<Pendulum> I think about it like those games where you have to navigate something through a maze using your mouse
<AlanBell> Faisal should use dasher a bit I think
<charlie-tca> It is very much finding the right thing at the right time
<AlanBell> best way to learn dasher is to unplug your keyboard on a desktop and put it out of reach then spend all evening chatting on IRC
<Pendulum> and not to stress about how long your taking
<Pendulum> and not to look at the window you're inputting in and focus on dasher
<AlanBell> and stay calm when your keyboard segfaults
<Pendulum> haha
<charlie-tca> Great idea! I will give that a try, except I broke it now
<Pendulum> unless it segfaults in under a minute repeatedly. then you get mad and file a bug
<charlie-tca> lol
<Pendulum> oh, and not to work about the gtk errors that come up in terminal when you launch direct mode
<Pendulum> s/work/worry
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: how'd you break it?
<charlie-tca> yeah, I got that one already. A lot of apps throw those
<charlie-tca> it won't do anything :-)
<charlie-tca> It just sits with all them letters scrunched up in a column
 * charlie-tca thinks scrunched is the right word for that
<UndiFineD> I just dasdhered "Dasher is a difficult accessibility program which is required to be used by some of us" and i cannot even paste it into xchat
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: move your mouse towards the letters?
<charlie-tca> tried that
<Pendulum> huh
<charlie-tca> move the mouse all over. Broke it good
<Pendulum> what makes me sad about dasher is that it's open source, has generally been developed by linux geeks, and it's most stable on windows :(
<charlie-tca> Got to have the users to keep motivated
<Pendulum> yeah
<UndiFineD> how many clipboards are there ?
<charlie-tca> huh?
<charlie-tca> one that I know of
<Pendulum> I don't use xchat so I don't know the issues there
<UndiFineD> so whay could i not paste into xchat ?
<Pendulum> i've never had a problem pasting or writing directly in irssi
<charlie-tca> copy / paste to xchat requires keyboard to use Ctrl+v
<charlie-tca> doesn't it?
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: can you not right click and paste?
<vish> charlie-tca: also middle click works
<charlie-tca> well, sounds like I don't know after all
<charlie-tca> Maybe I just use the keyboard because it is easier for me to hit things
<vish> iirc, there are 2 clipboards , the middle click one is the X one and the other is whatever..
 * Pendulum gets x-chat to try to test
<Pendulum> even though dasher is horrible with this mouse :(
<charlie-tca> What mouse do you normally use?
<AlanBell> wonder if Dasher would be good with multitouch devices like the magic trackpad
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: i use it on linux on my mac
<Pendulum> so the mac trackpad
<Pendulum> but i'm on my mini
<Pendulum> which has a horrid trackpad
<Pendulum> AlanBell: it's lovely on my MBP trackpad so I'd guess yes
<charlie-tca> I would think it should work nicely with that too
<charlie-tca> I use the logitech trackball, and it is smooth
<AlanBell> Faisal now uses Dasher
<charlie-tca> Faisal now fights with dasher?
<pendulum|test> testing to see if right click works for paste in x-chat 
<pendulum|test> it does, but the real problem is the lack of a mouse way enter in x-chat (so really will only work in direct mode)
<Pendulum> brb, need to watch Ann Widdecombe do the pasodoble
<Pendulum> sorry, just felt that was the one time in my life i'd ever be able to say that ;-)
<charlie-tca> heh, good a reason as any
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: Anne Widdecombe is a British politician who is on Strictly Come Dancing this season. She is very entertaining and it's worse than watching my grandmother dance in terms of ability
<charlie-tca> Neat! We need some entertainment in our lives
<Pendulum> yes
<Pendulum> I prefer Strictly to Dancing with the Stars (although I'm watching Dancing with the Stars this season, too) and i'm catching up because I got behind at UDS
<AlanBell> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2snk9HhLp0
<Pendulum> AlanBell: is that a youtube of anne widdecombe dancing?
<AlanBell> it is of anne widdecombe certainly. Dancing . . . not so sure about that
<Pendulum> well "dancing"
<Pendulum> AlanBell: btw, if you think that's bad, you should have seen her salsa
<AlanBell> the girls do watch strictly and drag me in for the widdecombe dances
<Pendulum> haha
<AlanBell> coz I like politics :)
<Pendulum> lol
<Pendulum> i am loving Pamela Stevenson
<AlanBell> how is your dancing going Pendulum 
<Pendulum> i haven't danced since uds :(
<Pendulum> dunno if i'll try to schedule for this coming week or not
<AlanBell> did you dance at UDS?
<Pendulum> not ballroom
<Pendulum> i did dance at the friday party
<charlie-tca> hm, have to debug xubuntu and find why dasher won't work in direct mode for it
<charlie-tca> first though, go shopping
<charlie-tca> Dasher in xchat.
<charlie-tca> in Xubuntu
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/faisal.pdf coming on a bit now
<charlie-tca> this not easy 
<charlie-tca> Apparently you must first start /usr/lib/at-spi-registryd in Xubuntu to use dasher direct mode
<Pendulum> AlanBell: faisal looks good so far
<Pendulum> i'll look in more detail tomorrow, but I wanted to let you know I had started looking at it :)
<AlanBell> :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-14
<AlanBell> go Cheri703 
<AlanBell> tabfail
<AlanBell> charlie-tca isn't online
<AlanBell> but wrote a great email to the web presence team list
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-07
<Fudge> anyone know where arky has gotten to ?
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Travels home were fine, but I think TSA decided to pinch something out of my luggage, and what is more annoying is that it was a piece of tech that I bought prior to leaving the US. :S
<valorie> oh ugh!
<valorie> what did they take?
<valorie> I doubt it was the TSA, btw -- more likely airline baggage handling people
<valorie> TSA messes with carryons
<valorie> not so much with checked luggage
<TheMuso> A power adapter for a network switch that I took with me... Its no big deal, I can get a replacement that still works, but still a pain.
<TheMuso> Actually my statement about tech being pinched that I bought is incorrect.
<TheMuso> That was found, just the power adapter was taken.
<valorie> :(
<Fudge> twits
<Pendulum> TheMuso: I'd file a report with your airline about the missing stuff
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Done, but they can't really do much about it.
<TheMuso> Hey charlie-tca. Hope you got back ok from UDS.
<charlie-tca> Hello, TheMuso 
<charlie-tca> Yes, my trip back was very uneventful
<TheMuso> Good to hear.
<charlie-tca> tired but will be okay.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-08
<figueroa> I ran speech synthesis from my dash home and set up a really cool speech synthesis app and then it said to logout to make the changes take effect.  How do I get back to that?
<TheMuso> figueroa: Get back to what?
<skaet> TheMuso, charlie-tca, Pendulum, maco, and others...  :)   I've just gone ahead and created: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-precise-desktop-accessibility and tried to link to it, any blueprints that seemed to be accessibility releated.  Please edit the dependency list to add/remove blueprints as appropriate.   Also, who should I put in as approver?
<maco> skaet: i think you've got all the blueprints linked already. it was being done mostly in the desktop track, so if track lead is who's meant to go there, then jason i guess
<skaet> maco,  track lead for the individual ones blueprints, but we don't have convention for the topics. 
<maco> ah ok. id guess pendulum then
<skaet> seems to me that the team should give the ok, that these are all the ones appropriate.
<maco> since she's this team's cat herders
<maco> *herder
<skaet> :)  
<skaet> will add pendulum.
<skaet> pendulum,  if you have any trouble with the statusing of the topic- let me know, and I'll help.
<skaet> Pendulum, maco - I've gone ahead and marked Pendulum as the approver, and Ubuntu-accessibility-developers as the assignee.  Let me know if there are any blockers on getting it tracking, and I'll try to help.
<dmj726> Hi Pendulum
<dmj726> Are there any plans for improved speech synthesis in Ubuntu?
<AlanBell> dmj726: at the moment we include espeak, which is OK, is lightweight and supports many languages
<dmj726> I used espeak for an a11y app on the n900.
<dmj726> It's handy
<AlanBell> you can use other speech synthesisers as a speech dispatcher back end, so orca and other applications that want to use them can do so
<dmj726> I've noticed the sound of its voice annoys blind and visually impaired users if they have to listen for a long time though
<AlanBell> I posted some instructions on how to use openMary as a speech dispatcher back end, that has got really natural sounding voices
<AlanBell> http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2011/05/05/speak-to-me/
<dmj726> Yeah, I just tried to get festival working and failed
<AlanBell> lots of the speech synth and recognition projects are associated with universities which means that contributers graduate and vanish every year
<AlanBell> so they get abandoned and after a while some new students do a project to add a new feature or approach it in a different way
<dmj726> Hmm...sounds like a different method is needed, or perhaps better datasets
<AlanBell> openmary is really really good in terms of output quality
<AlanBell> but espeak is more flexible for the different languages ubuntu supports, and will fit on the CD without much pain
<dmj726> Is there a reason OpenMary is not the default?
<AlanBell> it is unsuitable to be the default
<dmj726> Hmm...perhaps it might be nice to simplify installing additional speech synthesis systems somehow
<AlanBell> licensing is a bit odd, size is far to big, language support needs separate voice files for each language
<AlanBell> yeah, would be great if apt-get install openmary just sorted it out including speech dispatcher integration
<dmj726> I wish I had the time to start working on the speech synthesis issue extensively myself.  Right now I'm working on solving the video editing on linux problem, which is taking most of my time, but A11y on linux is an area I care about.
<dmj726> I teach a computer camp for blind and visually impaired kids every August, and want to see Ubuntu improve as an option for them, especially as it could save them money and be more portable than $PROPRIETARY_SOLUTION
<maco> dmj726: feel free to file bugs on espeak for any words you find need a change of pronunciation. i figured out last cycle how to adjust those when it was giving a very interesting pronunciation of oneiric ocelot
 * AlanBell thinks maco did a great job of that and deserves all the credit :)
<maco> AlanBell: themuso figured out how to make debian/rules understand that the voice should be rebuilt when a new pronunciation is added
<maco> *i* was going to do MUCH hackier packaging than that!
<AlanBell> I was just going to shove it in the orca exceptions which is even hackier
<TheMuso> SeaJay: How goes the sprint?
<dmj726> maco: Well the big issue I've heard from users isn't that espeak has pronunciation issues as much as the voice is annoying.
<TheMuso> dmj726: Thats what I've heard as well.
<dmj726> basically the tone is much more like original BSG cylons than Hal 9000
<TheMuso> Personally, I love espeak, and wish I could use it on all my devices.
<dmj726> TheMuso: I use it for my A11y app on the n900 despite the annoying tone
<dmj726> TheMuso: Do you think it is possible to make espeak sound more soothing
<SeaJay> hI TheMuso! The sprint has been good. I presented an overview of what my team does on Monday, and that seemed to go well. I've been learning a lot and networking. Quality time with people like Jane and Chris Kenyon.
<dmj726> SeaJay: UDS?
<SeaJay> TheMuso: Looking forward to getting home though!
<AlanBell> dmj726: I prefer the female1 voice of espeak, but you can't select that in orca
<AlanBell> which is I guess a bug
<SeaJay> dmj726: I was at UDS last week, and this week I'm at a Canonical Commercial Sprint, so it's my 2nd straight week in Orlando.
<dmj726> SeaJay: Ah, cool.  I was at UDS/Linaro Connect last week
<SeaJay> dmj726: Cool!
<SeaJay> dmj726: Were we in any sessions together? I went to the accessibility sessions, but spent most of my time in the sessions on Ubuntu Server and ARM Server.
<dmj726> Possibly some
<dmj726> If you noticed a red haired guy with a camera that was me
<dmj726> I met up with Pendulum in the hallways a couple times too
 * dmj726 was there with Novacut
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Probably a bug in speech-dispatcher, since orca just probes the speech-dispatcher instance for a list of voices.
<AlanBell> ok, I will have a dig about and file something
<dmj726> I think I may see why orca doesn't see the different "people" in espeak
<dmj726> "Person" in orca is just showing the "language" according to espeak
<dmj726> where espeak has a "language" and "variants" for those languages
<TheMuso> Ah.
<dmj726> at least that's how it shows in Gespeaker
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-09
<TheMuso> maco: According to status.ubuntu.com, it seems there are more than one set of data concerning work items for you, i.e different usernames have been given in different work items in blueprints.
<TheMuso> maco: I'd fix it if I knew what your actual launchpad username was.
<valorie> TheMuso: https://launchpad.net/~maco.m
<TheMuso> valorie: Thanks.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: did you see Allison's e-mail suggesting that 100% accessibility is acheivable for both 2D and 3D?
<Pendulum> TheMuso: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-November/034392.html if you didn't see it
<valorie> that's encouraging!
<Pendulum> well, I'm not sure it's 100% accurate based on the conversations at UDS
 * Pendulum will be e-mailing Allison to clarify
<valorie> 6 months to 100% seems ambitious
<valorie> maybe she has a whip hidden in her closet she's gonna drag out
<AlanBell> depends on your definition of 100%
<valorie> oooo, AlanBell could be an American politician!
<valorie> or a lawyer
<valorie> :-)
<AlanBell> :)
<AlanBell> so right now, both 2d and 3d are somewhat keyboard navigable and expose some text to orca, there is no major "OMG the framework doesn't do that" kind of blocker on it this time
<AlanBell> and if 100% means fully keyboard navigable and orca reads it all, then yeah, maybe 100% can be done
<Pendulum> I don't think it's impossible
<Pendulum> but I think there's a big issue in terms of things like the lack of zoom
<Pendulum> and I've seen no assurances from the dx team about making that work in 3D
<AlanBell> I really like the current zoom setup :) hope that remains an option
<AlanBell> Pendulum: if the unity launcher and icons and text and top menu could say double in size but still not be affected by Compiz do you think that would be a good solution?
<AlanBell> or get them to expand and zoom separately to the zooming of the desktop
<maco> During one of the sessions I was playing with KDE's zoom settings. I like the fishbowl one! It zoomes the area around the mouse and leaves the stuff far away from it unzoomed
<Pendulum> AlanBell: not as a long-term fix. 1) People generally need a lot of zoom (possibly more than double) and they often don't want it zoomed all the time.
<Pendulum> I'm going to try to track down the people on dx who might know what needs to get done and see what the plan is
<fregl> Pendulum: btw, I stumbled across more personas: http://www.aegis-project.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=63&Itemid=53
<AlanBell> yeah, seen those personas
<AlanBell> Pendulum: tracked them down, in #ayatana
<AlanBell> if the unity layer scaled at the same time the desktop zoomed I think that would work
<AlanBell> that means the svg icons and text in unity would get bigger at full resolution
<AlanBell> and the workspace switcher would still work
<AlanBell> colour filters still wouldn't affect unity
<AlanBell> Pendulum: TheMuso: feel free to follow along in #ayatana
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I'll look at logs later. I'm a little concerned we're currently possibly talking about work-arounds rather than long-term solutions
<AlanBell> looking at options
<AlanBell> in some ways it would end up with a better result
<AlanBell> particularly with the workspace switcher, because then unity could remain scaled
<AlanBell> also if you were zoomed in, the unity bar may or may not move with the viewport, could go either way
<AlanBell> and stuff like alt-tab might not want to be bigger than the viewable area
<AlanBell> maco: I suspect a hyperbolic zoom would be quite possible in compiz, but that wouldn't work easily with this plan to zoom nux along with ezoom
<maco> why wouldnt it? plasma zooms just fine...
<AlanBell> well I guess it might be possible
<AlanBell> basically they are thinking of passing a transformation matrix from compiz to nux, then nux will do the same zoom that compiz would have done
<AlanBell> or that is one possible approach
<AlanBell> it seems they have not thought about it and zooming wasn't on their todo list and they have never tried it
<AlanBell> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/09/%23ayatana.html#t16:05
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I didn't think it was. And none of the people you've talked to are the person that TheMuso talked to about this (who is probably asleep due to time zones)
<AlanBell> sounds like I need to get to John Lea and get him excited about accessibility
<AlanBell> we need to finish those personas
<Pendulum> AlanBell: can I suggest backing off for a sec. I think TheMuso said that smspillaz had an idea of how the fix had to happen. I was going to talk to him to see what it was, etc.
<Pendulum> AlanBell: set a date for a sprint then :P
<Pendulum> (for the personas, I mean)
<AlanBell> I am done talking in #ayatana until DBO sends that email, and yeah smspillaz would be the other person with ideas on how to do that bit
<AlanBell> I don't want to tell them how to do it I wan to just toss in some ideas and get them talking
<AlanBell> lets do Simon next (who is partially sighted and needs ezoom)
<AlanBell> this weekend looks good
<Pendulum> AlanBell: post to the list and see if anyone else can make it?
<AlanBell> yeah, will do
<Pendulum> (plus then you'll have an action item done once we've got a weekend for a sprint to get these done set!)
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/onboardmodelm.png
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/onboardtypist.png
<AlanBell> two new onboard themes I just put in a merge request for :)
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-10
<AlanBell> onboard scanning mode works
<AlanBell> ^^ typed with onboard scanning mode and pressed enter at end of the line
<Pendulum> AlanBell: back when you were checking such things did you ever get Simon Listens working on Ubuntu?
<AlanBell> yes I did and it is great
<Pendulum> hmm...
<AlanBell> I don't know if the issue with getting it packaged in debian was ever resolved
<Pendulum> the Kubuntu folks are checking into that IIRC
<AlanBell> great, it is a Qt application so would fit better in Kubuntu
<AlanBell> although most of the time you don't need the user interface
<Pendulum> right
<Pendulum> I've just hit the point where I'm going to have to use voice recognition more (even onscreen keyboards are becoming problematic) and to upgrade my Mac software to something that would work on this machine now is $180
<Pendulum> so I might as well try Simon Listens before paying money for the solution that I know "just works"
<AlanBell> it is voice control rather than voice recognition
<Pendulum> okay, that's what I thought
<Pendulum> but maybe it'll at least help some
<Pendulum> (plus I really should test it since I'm in their target market ;-) )
<AlanBell> :)
<Pendulum> I hate all voice control and voice recognition programs anyway
<fregl> Pendulum: feedback about simon would be very appreciated by the author. and initially the UI is beyond horrible :p
<fregl> and hopefully kubuntu people will package it indeed
<apinheiro> fregl, about that, there are some distro planning to include simon at some moment?
<fregl> apinheiro: kubuntu will package it. I'm not aware of any others. but it should be possible to get distros to pick it up I guess.
<apinheiro> fregl, well, I don't know too much about kubuntu, how they usually release? they are synched with "normal" ubuntu releases? they made a release X weeks after the "normal" release?
<fregl> they release in sync. that doesn't prevent anyone from adding a package though. I don't think simon is going to be shipped on any cd by default though.
<Pendulum> apinheiro: if it gets packaged for kubuntu, it should end up in the normal repos for Ubuntu as well
<apinheiro> fregl, Pendulum ok thanks
<fregl> yes
<fregl> that would be horrible if they maintained everything twice in different repos
<fregl> Pendulum: I didn't test, but the simon author has a ppa:grasch-simon-listens/simon
<Pendulum> fregl: I'll check it out later
<fregl> it's natty only for now I think
<AlanBell> debian bug 596511
<ubot2> Debian bug 596511 in wnpp "RFP: simon -- Open source speech recognition" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/596511
<AlanBell> http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-uk/1409/detail/ UK LoCo team christmas meal at Dans Le Noir :)
<valorie> cool, AlanBell
<AlanBell> it should be good, it is rather expensive though, hope that doesn't put off too many people
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-11
<Pendulum> just as an fyi, I'm not really here today due to shoulder
<AlanBell> :(
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-12
<AlanBell> hi all
<AlanBell> persona sprint weekend
<Pendulum> AlanBell: I only just got up so I'll be around in a couple hours once I've fed myself and woken up more
<AlanBell> ok
<AlanBell> I haven't really got started yet
<AlanBell> getting started now
<AlanBell> http://www.macworld.com/article/163058/2011/10/up_close_with_ios_5_accessibility_features.html
<AlanBell> that is rather cool stuff on the iphone
<AlanBell> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/simon coming together now
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-13
<AlanBell> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/simon not far off now, could do with some editorial assistance and proof reading
<phillw> hi AlanBell when you get chance, could you move meetingology from #lubuntu to #lubuntu-offtopic, thanks :)
<AlanBell> phillw: done
<phillw> thanks AlanBell
<AlanBell> I am setting up a planet for accessibility blogs would be interested in comments on the design and accessibility of http://planeta11y.org/
<AlanBell> and feeds or blogs to include
