#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-25
<ochosi> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/07/lubuntu-1110-default-theme-ozone2-gets.html
<ochosi> this is frickin crazy, why is lubuntu going for the same look as  xubuntu, just one cycle later??
 * charlie-tca sighs
<charlie-tca> Alternate images for Ubuntu and Xubuntu will not work in VBox today
<mr_pouit> everything is oversized anyway =]
<charlie-tca> Makes it that much harder to use cd-r
<charlie-tca> will burn a dvd and try it on hardware
<charlie-tca> solitaire is broken in Oneiric, too
<knome> omg! how can we live without it
<knome> re: some discussion on mailing list, a draft: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/web_banners/microbutton_80x15.png
<charlie-tca> The text is blurring here, but I like the design.
<knome> blurring? are you sure you don't have a zoom on
<ochosi> it's pixel-perfect text here...
<charlie-tca> I always have text zooming on, does that mean I have to put up with blurred graphics?
<knome> with firefox, i think that might be the case
<knome> there is NO antialiasing in the font, it should be pixel-by-pixel perfect, as ochosi said
<charlie-tca> Then the button is crap
<knome> ERR
<knome> no
<charlie-tca> I don't have to have blurred buttons on most websites.
<knome> it is not supposed to be streched really
<charlie-tca> There is a difference between zoom all and zoom text-only
<charlie-tca> If zoom text-only causes a graphic button to blur, it is a bad design
<knome> there is something wrong with your browser, or your settings.
<knome> this has absolutely nothing to do with the button design
<charlie-tca> Okay, sorry, I don't think the button is okay afterall. It is blurred
<knome> there is something wrong with how the browser renders it
<knome> maybe it would work if it was inside an <img>-tag, not loaded directly
<knome> the button is *not* blurry.
<charlie-tca> If I have to change my settings to see it properly, it is a bad design
<knome> gosh!
<knome> http://gamelab.uta.fi/wordpress/wp-content/themes/freshy2/images/valid_xhtml11_80x15_2.png
<knome> is this button blurry?
<charlie-tca> 404 error
<knome> okay, can you give me a screenshot of the blurry button then?
<knome> if you zoom in firefox, the button definitely goes blurry. that's because the image is 80x15, and it's not meant for strecthing. firefox probably does not know how to handle images that are loaded directly (vs. <img>-tag)
<knome> as addressed in http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/web_banners/microbutton_80x15.html, where the image is loaded with the <img>-tah
<knome> *tag
<charlie-tca> Here it is - http://imagebin.org/164775
<knome> that button is *not* blurred.
<knome> the mousehead is, but it's because the image is 15px tall, and there is no way to get a good-looking mouse without antialiasing in that size.
<charlie-tca> so, my eyes are blurring again?
<knome> the text is pixel-perfect.
<knome> probably
<charlie-tca> Thank you. I appologize then. 
<knome> no problem. good to have it sorted
<charlie-tca> I will stop evaling stuff as blurred/hard to see/bad
<charlie-tca> at least for oneiric
<charlie-tca> I told google stuff is blurred in google + too
<charlie-tca> I assume it goes with the clouding vision, maybe
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: hardware fails to install alternate images too
<knome> ugh, i need to go now
<knome> wife is waiting @city
<knome> see you later
<charlie-tca> but at least it isn't only us. Must be something Ubuntu did again
<charlie-tca> ochosi: take note. My vision is bad again, be best not to have me looking at the theme.
<charlie-tca> and if I do, kind of ignore it, I guess. 
<ochosi> charlie-tca: ok, thanks for the heads-up
<ochosi> on the technical side: i just added support for compiz/metacity in bluebird as well
<charlie-tca> Thank knome, he went through the misery of finding it
<ochosi> hmm, i see
<ochosi> anyway, sorry to hear that
<charlie-tca> heh, it is my regular 18 month or so cycle, I think
<charlie-tca> Alternate images are causing a kernel panic right after booting the image
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 45 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<Unit193> I'm about sure I can't make it
<pleia2> I have an appointment at that time, but if I could get feedback to the questions I posed in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-July/007858.html that'd be great
<pleia2> also I'm working on beardygnome's second email too, should have a response tonight
<pleia2> pretty much just the first bit of the email, and it is "Xubuntu session" right?
<charlie-tca> We offer both Xubuntu and Xfce sessions
<charlie-tca> A user should always choose Xubuntu session, unless they want the other
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu is a community developed, Ubuntu Linux-based operating system
<charlie-tca> is a yes
<charlie-tca> and as for the blog/news/xfce news, I do not think we should repeat anything from the planet, but maybe we should be offering what is on Xfce news feed, it really is not a busy feed, as far as I know, mostly it is about the latest versions of modules when they are released.
<charlie-tca> However, gnome feed is not repeated for Ubuntu, and maybe we should follow their lead?
<charlie-tca> Just throw a pointer up now and again that xfce news is available for anyone to read?
<charlie-tca> pleia2: maybe better wording for the above would be :
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu is a community developed, Ubuntu-based linux operating system.
<micahg> +1
 * micahg would capitalize Linux as well since it's a proper noun
<micahg> err
<charlie-tca> ??
<charlie-tca> it depends on usage
<charlie-tca> Linux is the kernel, is a proper noun, but linux is different from windows, is not 
<micahg> actually, I think Linux and Windows should be capitalized in that example, but I could be wrong
<charlie-tca> I will go with others, I don't know proper capitalization that well
<astraljava> linux is different from windows doesn't make any sense.
<charlie-tca> huh? Are they the same?
<astraljava> Other than pointing out something called linux isn't the stuff you have in the walls of your house.
<charlie-tca> Linux is the core of the operating system, windows is the operating system as it is popularly known
<astraljava> small-case windows has nothing to do with computing.
<charlie-tca> and windows is the core of the Windows Operating System, isn't it?
<charlie-tca> Then micahg would be correct, and both Linux and Windows should be caps?
<astraljava> IMHO, yes.
<madnick> Yes, since both are names
<charlie-tca> I will go with others, I don't know proper capitalization that well
<charlie-tca> Are we ready for a meeting. ?
<charlie-tca> pleia2 and Unit193 will not be attending, as I understand it.
<astraljava> In a minute!
<charlie-tca> tick tock, tick tock
<charlie-tca> now?
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<charlie-tca> great! lost the meeting bot already
<charlie-tca> Welcome to the Xubuntu Community Meeting
<charlie-tca> We keep the agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<knome> woot :)
<charlie-tca> * Old business
<charlie-tca> * Team updates
<charlie-tca>   * Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca>   * Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca>   * Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca>   * Artwork
<charlie-tca>   * Documentation
<charlie-tca> * Announcements
<charlie-tca> * Governance structure
<charlie-tca> * Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<charlie-tca> We do allow anyone to speak up, that wants to.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old Business
<charlie-tca> micahg to find what Ubuntu-desktop does with java in restricted-extras
<charlie-tca> micahg: any status?
<micahg> charlie-tca: sent an e-mail, waiting on response
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<charlie-tca> start ML discussion on panels, reviews of current panels, launchers on panels, etc
<charlie-tca> ochosi: did we get any thing on the review?
<charlie-tca> === Team updates ===
<ochosi> sry, was busy with other stuff, afaik the discussion/review hasn't really started
<charlie-tca> feature freeze is approaching fast
<charlie-tca> we need to do something if we are going to, right?
<knome> when is FF?
<micahg> Aug 11
<knome> plenty of time to do the discussion
<ochosi> micahg: maybe we can update gmusicbrowser?
<micahg> ochosi: is there a new version?
<ochosi> (or at least set a deadline for it)
<ochosi> there are quite a few bugfixes, no new release in the strict sense
<charlie-tca> I would say if 4 weeks hasn't been enough time to get it started, three weeks is cutting things short
<micahg> ochosi: is he planning a release any time soon?
<knome> ochosi, want to start the discussion on the ML today? i can give my comments right away
<ochosi> micahg: not sure, he's not planning releases, strictly speaking
<charlie-tca> knome: Why not send the email to get it started?
<ochosi> micahg: i think he's still trying to improve it to finally release 1.2
<ochosi> charlie-tca: good idea
<knome> charlie-tca, i'm planning to do other things today, eg. more banners
<ochosi> awwh :)
<ochosi> micahg: but i guess i can talk to him to do a 1.1.8 release
<micahg> ochosi: personally, I prefer releases to snapshots, but if there are sufficient fixes, I can find out how to make a tarball from th repo
<ochosi> micahg: actually github has a tarball-feature, so you can simply take it from there
<charlie-tca> Can we continue?
<charlie-tca> silence is not golden...
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] === Team updates ===
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] ==== Packaging & Development ====
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit or micahg ?
<mr_pouit> as you prefer :p
<charlie-tca> Go ahead, sir
<mr_pouit> ok
<mr_pouit> nothing much new again, uploaded a new xubuntu-default-settings to make some cleaning of gdm/natty specific hacks, and merged the new xfce4-indicator-plugin with transparency support
<mr_pouit> micahg wanted to investigate why evince is still on the daily builds, but I don't remember the result ;)
<micahg> it's due to gnumeric
<micahg> so, gnumeric can use epdfview, but the preview files aren't cleaned when you close epdfview, not sure if that's a deal breaker or not
<charlie-tca> What does that mean? Do you have to manually close the previews then?
<astraljava> They're stored in /tmp, right?
<micahg> yep, they're in /tmp
<charlie-tca> Doesn't /tmp get cleaned on a restart?
<astraljava> Shouldn't be a problem, most people reboot often, right?
<micahg> it's a potential privacy issue on a running machine
<astraljava> True.
<charlie-tca> even if they don't, does /tmp keep it forever?
<micahg> charlie-tca: w/out a reboot, yes
<charlie-tca> Other things also get stored there, right?
<micahg> yeah
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: opinion?
<micahg> I'm not comfortable asking for an alternate depends on epdfview w/out this being fixed
<mr_pouit> yeah
<astraljava> But wait, isn't most privileges in /tmp 600?
<charlie-tca> Then we keep evince?
<astraljava> s/isn't/aren't
<micahg> astraljava: hmm, right, true, it is 600 on those files, so maybe not an issue
<astraljava> ..
<charlie-tca> If you are printing a private file, do you expect to not have traces left on the drive?
<micahg> that's true, flash drive files would be impacted
<charlie-tca> I don't think I understand what is wrong with a copy left in /tmp vs a copy you stored on the drive before print preview was invoked?
<micahg> so, I guess we either get this fixed so that epdfview acts like evince in this scenario or go back to evince
<micahg> charlie-tca: the file might not be on the system at all
<charlie-tca> okay, let's revert to evince again, then. 
<ochosi> sorry to bother, but why were we going for epdf again?
<micahg> ochosi: 2-3MB CD space
<micahg> we're 30MB oversized ATM
<charlie-tca> did we remove pinyin yet?
<beardygnome> can't we just drop somrthing to get the space back?
<charlie-tca> Not that simple
<knome> like gimp? 
<astraljava> beardygnome: I think that's what the discussion is all about. :)
 * knome hides
<beardygnome> knome: that's where i was headed :-)
<knome> people, PLEASE start the app comparison wiki page.
<charlie-tca> If ubuntu adds things, we get oversized, If they remove them, they don't always get removed from the Xubuntu image
<astraljava> Wait, Xubuntu actually ships gimp by default?
<charlie-tca> yes, astraljava 
<knome> don't waste time on loads of irrelevant emails
<charlie-tca> We never had the space issue Ubuntu did
<micahg> mr_pouit: should we revert to ibus-pinyin from ibus-sunpinyin like UBuntu did?
<knome> iirc, we've had the space issue for a few releases already
<mr_pouit> micahg: I've absolutely no idea. I usually try to follow what ubuntu doesn on these matters ;-)
<mr_pouit> *does
<micahg> well, they have a custom CD with ibus-sunpinyin for China I think
<mr_pouit> (there are several transitions in progress apparently, since we have two versions of libwebkit aboard)
<micahg> we're stuck with them I think, the GTK3 version is used in yelp
<micahg> Ubuntu has the same issue
<astraljava> Fortunately this isn't an LTS release. :)
<charlie-tca> How come alternate 64 is 30MB lighter then the other images?
<micahg> I think the two transitions we're impacted by ATM are the SSL 1.0.0 and libnotify ones, libnotify will be done once transmission gets its build-deps MIRd and builds, libssl I haven't started on yet
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Only 13, and the same with both archs, isn't it?
<charlie-tca> no
<charlie-tca> alternate 64 is only 702MB, 
<astraljava> Sorry, my bad.
<charlie-tca> alternate i386 is 715MB, and the desktop images are both over 730MB
<micahg> not sure, we have some amd64 archive failures in main, could be those updates changed build-deps, idk offhand
<micahg> s/archive/build/
<charlie-tca> All debian installer images are causing kernel panics today, but they had been working
<charlie-tca> anything else on development and packaging?
<charlie-tca> summary: keep evince, find out why cd's are oversize
<micahg> I think so at this point
<charlie-tca> and merged the new xfce4-indicator-plugin with transparency support   
<charlie-tca> which is a big one, right?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] ==== Bug Triage & Testing ====
<charlie-tca> We still don't have live sessions, even though the new x11-common is out
<charlie-tca> what else do we need to push to get things moving for us?
<charlie-tca> Testing is being done as often as we can, with the results at http://2tu.us/3dmh
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: any bugs I can push people with to get the live session working now/
<charlie-tca> ?
<mr_pouit> nope, it's still waiting on some support from gdm/lightdm
<charlie-tca> bugs in Oneiric are being tracked at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Bugs/OneiricOcelot , Please update it when you report a new bug
<mr_pouit> (and they are aware of the issues)
<charlie-tca> Do I need to push people, or will it happen before alpha3 next week?
<mr_pouit> sorry, I don't know when this'll happen :(
<charlie-tca> Any questions on bugs and testing?
<micahg> might be something to bring up in the Desktop meeting AU edition
<charlie-tca> I keep bringing it up in the release meeting, I don't know the dekstop meeting?
<charlie-tca> Do you attend it?
<micahg> I'm around for it sometimes (won't be tomorrow)
<charlie-tca> They do show the d-i bug 815962 fixed now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 815962 in udev (Ubuntu) "oneiric d-i based images kernel panic on boot" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/815962
<charlie-tca> Maybe we will have working images tomorrow
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] ==== Website & Marketing ====
<charlie-tca> Many thanks to beardygnome for his great website review!
<beardygnome> np
<beardygnome> glad to be of service :-)
<charlie-tca> As many times as I read it, I never realized how many times we referred to Ubuntu instead of Xubuntu
<knome> i thought that was deliberate thing on some of the spots
<knome> but i might remember wrong
<charlie-tca> knome: any update on the website?
<knome> on w&m: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/web_banners/microbutton_80x15.png was created today, and more is to come
<knome> i'm hoping to get back on working on the actual website this month
<beardygnome> knome: it is in some places, i only mentioned the ones that i thought weren't deliberate
<knome> beardygnome, okay, right :)
<charlie-tca> I owe knome an apology for this morning. I looked at the banner just referenced, and it was blurred. He has since pointed out my eyes are very blurred again
<charlie-tca> seems my vision is not good at this time
<charlie-tca> ..
<knome> charlie-tca, no problem
 * charlie-tca hates not seeing good
<charlie-tca> anything else, knome ?
<knome> mmh... not at the moment, i think
<charlie-tca> Thank you for the update. It would be good to get the website moving again.
<knome> yes, definitely
<charlie-tca> Any questions for website?
<knome> to get the blog set up!
<charlie-tca> please
<knome> :)
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] ==== Artwork ====
<charlie-tca> ochosi: You get a turn, too
 * knome rolls ochosi like a dice
<knome> is it a six? is it?
<ochosi> i'll keep that a secret, knome ;)
<knome> hehe
<charlie-tca> :)
<ochosi> ok, not many news, i added a metacity theme to bluebird
<ochosi> so basically the two themes we added since i started to contribute actively now work with compiz/metacity
<ochosi> apart from that i tested gtk3 again in my oneiric install
<ochosi> but everything is still moving too much in gtk3 and unico to really get down to coding the gtk3 theme
<ochosi> if someone feels like doing a theme for lightdm, please step forward :)
<knome> (albatross is underway of having a facelift!)
<ochosi> that's about it from my side :)
<charlie-tca> I don't know about a theme, but it is fairly easy to add the wallpaper from greybird to lightdm
<ochosi> it's css, so maybe we can use parts of the gtk3 theme when it's ready
<charlie-tca> Thank you, ochosi 
<ochosi> not sure though
<ochosi> np
<charlie-tca> That would be great!
<charlie-tca> any questions for artwork?
<charlie-tca> Anyone that wants to work on the theme for lightdm for Xubuntu?
<mr_pouit> (a plymouth theme is also needed :)
<charlie-tca> yeah, that's a lot harder
<ochosi> mr_pouit: seriously?
<ochosi> oh, you mean if we don't want to keep the current one :)
<charlie-tca> We been needing one for a while now
<ochosi> does anyone here have experience with that?
<mr_pouit> \o
<mr_pouit>  /o\
 * astraljava is not an artist by a long stretch
<charlie-tca> I would love to see the current wallpaper as a plymouth background too :)
<knome> charlie-tca, you don't want a new wallpaper for oneiric? :P
<ochosi> hehe
<mr_pouit> ochosi: my experience: take the ubuntu-logo plymouth script, change some random colors and the logo, and poof, here's xubuntu-logo plymouth theme
<mr_pouit> but that's not very great
<charlie-tca> If we have a good one come into view, we might grab it
<knome> mr_pouit, that's greater than alexander the great!
<ochosi> mr_pouit: how does that work? could we add animations? if yes, how?
<charlie-tca> but wouldn't it be great to see the current wallpaper a plymouth theme?
<knome> charlie-tca, we'll create something with ochosi, that's for sure. if not for oneiric, for the new greybird release then
<mr_pouit> ochosi: you can do that if you know the scripting language used
<charlie-tca> We could splash XUBUNTU across it even, it white or yellow
<knome> charlie-tca, the current, or maybe the forthcoming
<ochosi> mr_pouit: pfff. not sure i want to learn something so useful outside of plymouth
<knome> well definitely not yellow, that would remind me of sweden too much
<mr_pouit> but anyway, I'll have to update our plymouth script for oneiric, because the natty one doesn't display fsck progress
<knome> mr_pouit, what's the script language there?
<charlie-tca> that's right. 
<mr_pouit> knome: plymouth specific apparently =]
<charlie-tca> Okay, I will go looking at plymouth, if I can figure out how to
<knome> mr_pouit, awwh, resembles... ?
<madnick> It looks like C
<knome> somebody good with C?
<knome> madnick maybe? :)
<charlie-tca> I don't know any of those, so I should be good to go, huh?
<madnick> Not good with animations however :)
<knome> well, we can get artists helping you
<knome> (ochosi)
 * knome hides
<madnick> I could look into stuff
<knome> great!
<charlie-tca> |o/
<knome> madnick, seriously, ping me or ochosi when/if you need help with the artistic part
<madnick> okay
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] madnick to look into plymouth theme, with help from knome and ochosi for animations
<charlie-tca> Thank you, madnick 
<madnick> :)
<knome> i don't think we need any fancy animations really, right?
<charlie-tca> right
<knome> just something to indicate progress
<ochosi> oh yes, i want a spinning wheel and a diamond and a unicorn that rides into the sunset!
<knome> ochosi, still?
<charlie-tca> See, and the wallpaper has the sunset!
<ochosi> haha
<knome> please remember mouse is our mascot, so the unicorn must be riding a mouse, or the other way around!!
<ochosi> :)
<charlie-tca> and not on the horn, either ;)
<knome> haha
 * ochosi jots everything down for the next xubuntu wallpaper draft
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] === Announcements ===
<knome> ochosi, gosh! ;)
<charlie-tca> let's get through this 
<charlie-tca>  * The next meeting will be on Sunday, 2011-07-31 at 22:00 UTC
<charlie-tca>  * Important dates coming up:
<charlie-tca>  * 11.10 Alpha 3: August 4, 2011
<charlie-tca>   * 11.10 FeatureFreeze : August 11, 2011
<charlie-tca>   * 11.10 Release Date: October 13, 2011
<charlie-tca>   * UDS-P will be in Orlando, Florida the week of October 31 - Nov 4. Please apply for sponsorship by August 24.
<charlie-tca>   * UDS-P information at http://ubuntu-news.org/2011/07/15/ubuntu-developer-summit-sponsorship-now-open-2/
<charlie-tca> anything else?
<knome> yeah
<knome> please start the image editor app comparison wiki page
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] === Any Other Business ===
<knome> even if we didn't change anything for oneiric, it will be useful at later time
<charlie-tca> image editor comparison should be started on the wiki
<knome> yes
<knome> i sent mail to the ML
<knome> stating the correct pagename and template name
<knome> to somebody to pick up
<knome> (it's a relatively low-hanging fruit, since others will help!)
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Oneiric/DefaultImageEditor
<charlie-tca> I don't think we are going to drop gimp, but you never know, huh?
<knome> (not yet created)
<knome> i'm all for dropping it, if we find an easy to use, stable enough image editor
<knome> it is true that most of the normal users don't need the majority of gimp features
<knome> and i suppose gimp takes quite a lot of space
<charlie-tca> like I am not normal?
<charlie-tca> I would prefer to see software center dropped, personally
<knome> i don't know, but many people use gimp for resizing, flipping and cropping images, and gimp is a bit slow for that
<charlie-tca> but, yes, gimp is a huge space taker
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: in favour of what?
<knome> it is easy enough to install gimp anyway (sudo apt-get install gimp!)
<charlie-tca> You can use Synaptic Package Manager
<knome> i prefer synaptic as well, if one needs a GUI
<charlie-tca> or even apt-get install ...
<beardygnome> true, (i do myself) but i think software center is wasier for new users
<knome> but i think the SC is easier for new users
<beardygnome> the general public is becoming quite used to "app stores"
<knome> charlie-tca, doesn't apt-get install need sudo?
<charlie-tca> I still believe new users belong in Ubuntu instead. 
<pleia2> yeah, new people really love the software center, in my experience
 * beardygnome hopes apple don't sue him
<charlie-tca> everything needs sudo, doesn't it?
<knome> the SC is not too large/bloaty/irrelevant anyway?
<charlie-tca> Does the "app store" part work for Xubuntu?
<knome> charlie-tca, nvm, thought you commented on sth else :)
<micahg> charlie-tca: shouldn't it?
<charlie-tca> I open it every 6 months to test it, for the final candidate image tests
<charlie-tca> um, ubuntuone doesn't work for Xubuntu, the buy music parts don't work for Xubuntu, I haven't tested the buy apps now parts to see if they work outside of Ubuntu
<micahg> charlie-tca: if they don't that should be a bug
<charlie-tca> Software Center is finely tuned to Ubuntu
<knome> micahg, agreed!
<micahg> the packages should have appropriate dependencies
<knome> shouldn't be too hard to hide those
<charlie-tca> like the bug for ubuntuone? filed a long time back, with the comment: "as soon as Xubuntu writes the interface" ?
<charlie-tca> but I regress
<knome> charlie-tca, link?
<charlie-tca> Any other business?
<micahg> charlie-tca: why can't we use the UBuntu UbuntuOne client?
<charlie-tca> no, I don't have it. I quit following the bugs for ubuntuone
<charlie-tca> micahg: because it doesn't work?
<knome> okay
 * micahg isn't sure what that means
<GridCube> good evening
<knome> hey GridCube 
<charlie-tca> which became very obvious when I cancelled my payments for ubuntuone and switched to Dropbox
<beardygnome> micahg: i think it requires nautilus
<charlie-tca> micahg: it doesn't work with thunar.
<micahg> ah, that part doesn't work
<charlie-tca> and when you add nautilus to xubuntu, it really gets messy
<knome> yeah.. way too messy
<knome> and bloaty
<knome> :)
<beardygnome> micahg: it doesn't work with kubuntu either, iirc
<charlie-tca> That is the whole part of ubuntuone worth having. If all you get is a web interface, there is no advantage to saying you have it
<charlie-tca> Kubuntu now has an interface, though
 * charlie-tca thinks "so does windows"
<beardygnome> oh well, i'm happy with dropbox for now
<beardygnome> at least that works with thunar
<charlie-tca> yup
<knome> sshfs works with thunar ;)
 * beardygnome thinks ubuntuone has a windows interface too
<charlie-tca> but experience doesn't really give me a reason to think most of Software Center works with Xubuntu, either
 * knome thinks the BROWN color was appropriate for ubuntu
<beardygnome> knome: and now smb does too :-)
<knome> beardygnome, afaik smbfs always worked ;)
<charlie-tca> Okay, anything we really need to bring up?
<charlie-tca> I want to end this meeting
<knome> and (curl)ftpfs!
<knome> charlie-tca, go ahead
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for participating. It is great to see people interested in keeping Xubuntu strong!
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<knome> wait, what? i was here to make xubuntu go soft!
<charlie-tca> and now, please continue
<knome> ;)
<astraljava> Haha! :)
<knome> GridCube, see my email to the mailing list
<micahg> charlie-tca: so, if you find places where software center doesn't work in xubuntu, please file bugs
<charlie-tca> I guess I just don't like software center
<charlie-tca> I won't find it, micahg 
<charlie-tca> I don't use it
<astraljava> But yeah, now that the official part is over, I want to say that I'm willing to lend a hand in the devel part if needed, too. You guys are doing a real good work, and I'd really love to be a part of it, extending the testing part.
<knome> astraljava, great!
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: more help ^ ^ ^
<GridCube> I realize how late i am, but in the topic of graphic editors and such i tried to edit the wiki and it said i did not had the privileges to do so
<GridCube> :( i miss the whole meeting
<knome> GridCube, do you have an account in the wiki?
<charlie-tca> Did you login to the wiki?
<beardygnome> got to go now, see you at the next meeting
<charlie-tca> GridCube: better late than never
 * GridCube is reading the irclogs.ubuntu.com for today
<GridCube> mmm no i do not have a wiki account
<micahg> GridCube: openid through launchpad
<GridCube> i see
<micahg> mr_pouit: so, should I try to make the seed changes to go back to ibus-pinyin or should I try to find some space elsewhere?
<knome> micahg, mr_pouit: how much excess stuff do you think can be in the image?
<knome> i mean, just totally useless packages for majority
<micahg> knome: I'm not sure what you mean
<charlie-tca> heh, about 40MB
<knome> micahg, ^
<charlie-tca> or maybe more than that
<charlie-tca> but it takes time to get it weeded out
<micahg> well, ATM, we have no space :)
<charlie-tca> usually close to rc
<knome> would it make sense to try to shoot those out for PP
<charlie-tca> oh, that kind of useless? I don't think there is much there
<knome> micahg, no i mean, the packages that ARE in the images, how many do you think we could drop with no consequences for majority of xubuntu users?
<micahg> I don't think there's much ATM that's useless
<charlie-tca> We are pretty tight
<knome> right
<micahg> we could always throw gmusicbrowser back out
 * micahg hides
 * knome kicks micahg in the private area
<knome> that's probably one of the smallest packages
<micahg> Access Denied
 * knome enters the sudo password
<charlie-tca> I guess if push comes to shove, we will drop gimp, but not yet
<micahg> nah, I think the ibus change was most of the 30MB
<charlie-tca> me too
<knome> i don't think gimp is something that we objectively need to hold on as long as we can
<micahg> Thunderbird was probably the rest
<charlie-tca> That's right. I heard Thunderbird added another 3 or 4 mb this wekk
<charlie-tca> s/wekk/week
<micahg> http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/11/giving-up-the-gimp-is-a-sign-of-ubuntus-mainstream-maturity.ars
<charlie-tca> I think gimp is something we hang on to, yes
<knome> charlie-tca, rationale?
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu gave up gimp because they really cd space. We don't have that issue yet
<TheSheep> knome: you want to try and persuade Adobe to let us distribute Photoshop instead?
<charlie-tca> We are usually under 690MB for the final release
<knome> TheSheep, bah
<knome> i think the post that micahg pasted has some valid points
<knome> that have nothing to do with the CD space
<charlie-tca> I don't care what the actual final wording used was. The real reason was space on the cd
<knome> and those are as true, and maybe even more true, for xubuntu
<TheSheep> gimp is a professional tool
 * micahg actually meant to find a backlash article
<charlie-tca> If you really believe gimp needs to go, help GridCube with the reviews.
<knome> "Its expansive assortment of rich features necessitate a complicated user interface that is intimidating to inexperienced users. It is also saddled with a lengthy startup time due to its large collection of plugins."
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu is aimed at those users
<charlie-tca> It is designed for the new to linux/coming from windows users
<TheSheep> knome: do you have any suggestion for a simpler editor?
<charlie-tca> That doesn't mean Xubuntu is going to try to grab those users
<knome> TheSheep, not really, but there were quite many mentioned in the ML
<TheSheep> knome: I would be interested in such a tool personally
<knome> charlie-tca, of course not. but xubuntu shouldn't try to fill in the niche for those who want high-end editing app, ubuntu studio is for those
<TheSheep> knome: I tried a lot of them, and only found a cool digital painting tool
<knome> charlie-tca, and i'm not saying you should rather install ubuntu studio 
<charlie-tca> We don't. That's why we don't install all the apps studio does
<knome> charlie-tca, xubuntu and ubuntu studio have completely different focus groups
<charlie-tca> +1
<knome> charlie-tca, what's the rationale in shipping gimp then?
<knome> TheSheep, mypaint?
<charlie-tca> nothing comparable for editing images
<TheSheep> knome: yeah, but it sucks for pixelart
<charlie-tca> What is the replacement that works?
<knome> TheSheep, yup.
<knome> charlie-tca, i have no idea. i'd say inkscape, but it's high-end too, and it crashes too much.
<charlie-tca> inkscape is harder than gimp
<TheSheep> knome: and mtpaint is pretty bad
<knome> charlie-tca, seriously, i think a really simple image editor that can crop, resize and do some other very basic functions would be perfect for xubuntu
<micahg> inkscape is SVG only
<TheSheep> micahg: false
<charlie-tca> Sure, if there is one, knome 
<knome> micahg, it can export to png :P
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: vector graphics is harder, but I think inkscape has pretty good ui
<knome> charlie-tca, in my opinion, inkscape was actually easier to get a grip on than gimp. that's me coming from windows.
<micahg> ah, I didn't read far enough in the description
<knome> gimp just has too much things visible by default, imo.
<micahg> bug still, it's mainly SVG w/PNG export
<charlie-tca> I tend to do more than just crop and resize, myself. I like to add colors, sometimes, and erase/hide parts of the image
<micahg> *but
<knome> micahg, sure :)
<TheSheep> micahg: but it's not suitable for photos and pixels
<micahg> so, not a good default
<knome> charlie-tca, i consider those "basic functions" that are probably found in many editors
<knome> micahg, TheSheep: yes, it's not a good default. :)
<TheSheep> I think that inkscape should be installed by default
<TheSheep> but that's separate from gimp
<knome> i don't think so.
<knome> maybe in ubuntu studio... :)
<astraljava> Already is. :)
<GridCube> charlie-tca: :/ the stuff i updated on the spreadsheet aint there anymore...
<charlie-tca> Inkscape is very specialized, it is not your "average user" application
<TheSheep> knome: it's excellent for making all those pdfs that people use office for
<knome> i think that openttd should replace the games package, too ;)
<knome> charlie-tca, is is gimp :)
<knome> s/is is/as is/
<GridCube> all the test done by me (as my name is in the first row) are empty D:
<charlie-tca> GridCube: testing?
<GridCube> yes
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: I think that inkscape is an excellent tool for small dtp that all home computer users sooner or later do
<charlie-tca> which first row?
<charlie-tca> today?
<GridCube> no every day 
<GridCube> everyone of my test have nothing added
<knome> i probably should know more about image editors as i'm an artist, but seriously, if i really badly need pixel editing, i just go to photoshop, because i know it so much better than anything else, and that's what makes it so quick for me.
 * micahg thinks that's inkscape as a default app except for ubuntustudio is pointless
<GridCube> :/ its like it didnt saved what i added to the correspondent data cell
<knome> i agree with micahg 
<knome> the first step would just be to create the wikipage, write some basic information and add all the apps mentioned in.
<charlie-tca> I am not seeing any tests for four days, but your tests from the 20th are there
<charlie-tca> I have never used inkscape
<mr_pouit> micahg: yes, let's go the easy way, if the pinyin changes will give us some space, feel free to do them, thanks :)
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: it's really easy to do simple stuff with it
<charlie-tca> well, not much, anyway. I found it very difficult, compared to gimp
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: like "have you seen my cat" poster
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: it's not supposed to be used like gimp :)
<charlie-tca> I couldn't make it do hardly anything, when I tried. 
<knome> charlie-tca, it's somewhat different, yes, but the interface is very clean, and once you get a grasp of all the tools, it's a breeze
<knome> charlie-tca, it's not for pixel-by-pixel editing, mind you :)
<charlie-tca> GridCube: can you add those tests back?
<TheSheep> knome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_raster_graphics_editors#List
<charlie-tca> Well, if you are talking about a simple, easy to use app, inkscape has a high learning curve
<GridCube> i cant remember, but i see now that they have been edited to just say PASS thats why i didnt saw them
<charlie-tca> so does gimp, I admint
<knome> charlie-tca, we're not considering inkscape for inclusion in the defaults. i'd PERSONALLY do that, but not for xubuntu.
<TheSheep> knome: pinta looks promising
<knome> TheSheep, never used that :)
<GridCube> charlie-tca: talking about simple, the one im personally liking lately is Pinta, i know is mono and all, but its awesome
<charlie-tca> Pinta is still in development stages, isn't it?
<TheSheep> knome: me neither, just saw it on that list
<knome> i actually think we should create some really basic usecase scenarios
<micahg> mr_pouit: will try to do later this week (it's my first time actually updating a meta package)
<knome> like "crop and flip a photograph"
<charlie-tca> if pinta pulls in mono, that won't really save space
<madnick> frontend for imagemagick?
<GridCube> and then its gnome-paint, its pretty impressive also   http://code.google.com/p/gnome-paint/
<GridCube> madnick: that would be the most amazing thing ever
<charlie-tca> +1
<knome> gnome-paint resembles ms paint a bit too much imo :D
<GridCube> knome: somehow thats the idea
<knome> GridCube, yeah, i know
<knome> GridCube, would you please start the wikipage? i'm sure others will chime in later?
<GridCube> many people have learned to use the mouse, cut, copy and paste using mspaint
<knome> - last ?
<knome> i suppose gnome-paint can read jpg and png?
<GridCube> knome will do, but in 2 days i have a final exam on information sources, and i can't really expend my time on that, actually i should be studying rigth now
<GridCube> passed that day i will start doing the top 10 FAQ and the wiki 
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> Keeping in mind, if it pulls in half of gnome, it is disqualified
<knome> GridCube, okay, if you can do that after those few days, it's great
<micahg> charlie-tca: gnome-paint's deps are already met in xubuntu
<knome> TheSheep, i'm sure there is apps that are not mentioned in wikipedia
<knome> TheSheep, probably those that can do other things as well, and image editing is just secondary feature
<TheSheep> knome: impossible!
<charlie-tca> like gimp?
<charlie-tca> :)
<knome> like f-spot
<TheSheep> knome: things not mentioned in wikipedia don't exist!
 * charlie-tca couldn't resist
<TheSheep> knome: I pasted that link as some starting point for the research
 * TheSheep is trying nathive now
<knome> TheSheep, sure. did you read the ML thread?
<TheSheep> knome: of course not
<TheSheep> knome: wehat ML?
<TheSheep> what
<knome> TheSheep, xubuntu-devel
<charlie-tca> I intentionally tried to stay out of the gimp discussion, I am trying not to influence what is being said
<TheSheep> knome: you want me to read it?
<charlie-tca> Will try not to throw the reviews, either. If we can find something that works, great!
<knome> TheSheep, many apps were mentioned there
<GridCube> (most by me)
<GridCube> XD
<charlie-tca> knome: I have to trust you to give some guideance to these reviews
<TheSheep> knome: not really
<TheSheep> knome: they are all just porn management apps
<TheSheep> knome: not graphics creation apps
<knome> TheSheep, yeah... just disregard whatever i wrote
<knome> ;)
<TheSheep> knome: I always do
<knome> good
<knome> and where's my polish beer?! :)
<knome> j/k
<TheSheep> aah
<TheSheep> knome: no, no, I need to get down to that
<knome> nathive doesn't look at all bad
<TheSheep> knome: sorry
<astraljava> Still in the polish sheep's bladders?
<knome> i wonder how easy it is to resize/crop/flip
<knome> nathive doesn't seem to be in the repos
<TheSheep> the binaries are for python 2.6 :/
<knome> BOO
 * TheSheep gets the sources
<TheSheep> it has a crop tool
<TheSheep> resizing is by dragging the nodes of the image
<knome> mmh..
<knome> like in paint
<knome> i don't like that style, but that's probably easy for most
<TheSheep> can't see a way to flip
<knome> that's bad
<TheSheep> on the plus side, it's all python
<TheSheep> cool, you can use the crop tool to actually enlarge your canvas
<TheSheep> I suppose you can make the move tool allow flip, right now it just throws a python exception when you try it :P
<charlie-tca> polishing the beer?
<GridCube> (it is raining like... a lot... i do not have much imagination today)
<charlie-tca> cats and dogs?
<GridCube> yeah that
<TheSheep> could have been worse, could rain turtles
<GridCube> and the windows are like PAPLAM PAPLAM
<GridCube> XD
<TheSheep> way worse than frogs
<charlie-tca> seems so
<TheSheep> I think that nathive is the simplest thing that could possibly work
<charlie-tca> worse than cats, too
<TheSheep> unless it's cats wearing helmets
<TheSheep> then it's about the same
<charlie-tca> I guess it would be
<charlie-tca> Never saw cats wearing helmets, though
<charlie-tca> usually it is the dogs
<astraljava> But surely cats don't weigh as much as turtles?
<astraljava> Okay, maybe I'm thinking about the huge ones.
<TheSheep> tortoises :P
<astraljava> Right. :)
<knome> teenage mutant ninja turtles?
<astraljava> Oh THERE WE GO!
<TheSheep> that would be a short rain
<TheSheep> there is only 4 of them
<astraljava> But really painful.
<TheSheep> they claim to have a #nathive channel here, but it's empty
<TheSheep> the project seems to be abandoned
<TheSheep> last release october 2010
<knome> http://media1.keepbusy.net/pics/pic-dump-87-16.jpg
<TheSheep> damn, and it was python too :(
<TheSheep> knome: yum yum
<TheSheep> fhtagn
<charlie-tca> october 2010 isn't even a year yet?
<charlie-tca> Those poor turtles. It must really hurt
<TheSheep> charlie-tca: it had 4 releases a month before that
<charlie-tca> oh
<charlie-tca> well, I guess that does make it badder, then
<TheSheep> Next scheduled release
<TheSheep> 0.926: Soon.
<TheSheep> haha
<TheSheep> dead for sure ;)
<knome> sent mail
<knome> let's see what we get
<Unit193> That was one very large backlog...
<Unit193> charlie-tca: I agree on purging USC, that's now the FIRST thing I do after installing Xubuntu
<Unit193> (I also know it will never happen)
<GridCube> http://kornelix.squarespace.com/fotoxx/ another one wooo! \o/
<TheSheep> that's again a photo collection manager, not graphics editor
<knome> TheSheep, imo that's not necessarily a bad thing, if the editor part can do things we want it to do
<TheSheep> I wonder which one of the two kinds of software is needed
<TheSheep> yeah
<TheSheep> I think that one other common use case is putting some text on a cat photo
<TheSheep> we should totally support and encourage that
<charlie-tca> Nlol
<TheSheep> seriously
<TheSheep> gnome-paint has a text tool that says: Sorry, but the text feature has
<TheSheep> not yet been implemented.
<TheSheep> :D
<knome> haha
<knome> nice one that
<ochosi> lol
<GridCube> its like writing idkfa on quake
 * GridCube feels old 
<knome> iddqd?
<TheSheep> idclip
<TheSheep> mtpaint at least has a working text tool
<knome> and idbeholdl...
<charlie-tca> working text tool *should* matter
<knome> definitely
<TheSheep> it wouldn't be so bad if it didn't use its own icons and colors everywhere
<knome> TheSheep, mtpaint?
<TheSheep> yeah
<TheSheep> and the ui is too complicated
<knome> fix that for oneiric+1? :)
<knome> right, then don't fix it
<knome> TheSheep, maybe write those comments down in a text file, so you can add them to the wikipage later
<TheSheep> for some reason you can pick 5 different colors
<knome> in a way that's quite intelligent
<GridCube> http://kornelix.squarespace.com/fotoxx/
<GridCube> charlie-tca: have you seen that last one i shared 
<knome> i'd like to be able to select 5 colors in photoshop
<TheSheep> knome: it is also a specialized tool -- for pixel art
<TheSheep> knome: that's why
<GridCube> but i think we should have a criteria on what do we expect it to do
<knome> GridCube, resize, rotate, crop, simple draw (ms paint-like)
<knome> text also
<GridCube> that last one meets all
<knome> it looks gtk1'ish
<GridCube> in the screenshots they have yes
<GridCube> i don't know about now
<TheSheep> knome: I don't know what the second tool is supposed to do :/
<knome> TheSheep, rotate? or in mtpaint?
<TheSheep> in mtpaint
<knome> mmh
<TheSheep> ah, shuffle
<TheSheep> it doesn't do anything with 1px brush
<TheSheep> but with larger brushes it randomly swaps pixels inside
<knome> right...
<TheSheep> for shading
<knome> problem with fotoxx. doesn't seem to support transparent png
<charlie-tca> I try not to look at them. It makes it so much easier to say "no, not that one"
<charlie-tca> email sent to ml for review of panels
<TheSheep> I will call it a day, good night
<knome> TheSheep, night
<knome> GridCube, where's the image editing stuff in fotoxx?
<GridCube> in the menu retouch? i guess?
<knome> nope
<knome> there is pretty much no image editing stuff
<knome> looks more like a photo manager
<GridCube> oh... i dont know :/
<knome> if you manage to find the tools...
<GridCube> im not using linux atm
<knome> whenever you are
<GridCube> will do for the comparison
<GridCube> :)
<knome> great
<GridCube> charlie-tca: i will write more for the ML but for now i have to tell you that the first panel thing on 11.04 the thing that really bothered me about it, was the web-browser icon
<GridCube> and then that it was in the bottom, i do not understand, not know, any person that actually uses the menu bar on top, i found that whole paradigm alien to my experiences
<charlie-tca> Where do you put the menu bar?
<GridCube> down
<GridCube> i mean the one whit the menu
<GridCube> the start menu
<GridCube> on top , if auto hided, i use the icon bar but in auto resize mode, so it wont interfire(?) when i try to close windows
<knome> interfere
<GridCube> thanks
<GridCube> oh... its xubuntu-users!
<GridCube> i dont have an account there
<charlie-tca> what is?
<GridCube> the mail you just send
<GridCube> the one i just awnsered
<charlie-tca> I sent it to both lists
<charlie-tca> You can reply to xubuntu-devel
<GridCube> oh i got a bounce reply
<charlie-tca> oh, maybe it went to both lists
<GridCube> oh then the cc its the one that failed :P
<GridCube> (cc is "Con Copia" i dont know how its said on english)
<knome> carbon copy
<charlie-tca> it did too
<charlie-tca> np
<GridCube> oh, i see, so its the same acronym XD 
<charlie-tca> I cheated, I sent the message to both mailing lists to get a wider response
<knome> :P
<GridCube> :P thats no cheating, thats responsible thinking
<charlie-tca> vinnl says pinta is still too unstable
<GridCube> read that
<GridCube> :( too bad it seems so awesome
<charlie-tca> That is the second one I have seen say it is unstable
<GridCube> i know, its less than a year old project
<GridCube> but is heavily based on pain.NET which is a stable project?... i dont know how that relates
<knome> pain.net? lol
<GridCube> it was just an option in any case
<charlie-tca> .net is usually microsoft, isn't it?
<GridCube> :P
<GridCube> yes, usually, mono is the *nix version of it
<micahg> no mono please :)
<charlie-tca> Keep an eye on it, and see if it makes it two years
<GridCube> XD
<GridCube> okay
<micahg> at least until we lose some of the other stacks (GTK2, python2.6)
<GridCube> its gtk2+ 
<GridCube> :P
<micahg> right, but we don't have room for another stack, we already have an extra GTK, Webkit, and python(maybe) this cycle
<GridCube> I understand, as said, it was just an option
<charlie-tca> I thought python2.6 was gone?
<GridCube> doesn't emesene depends of it? or... xubuntu doesnt come whit emesene?
<GridCube> ... i cant remember
<charlie-tca> !info emesene
<ubottu> emesene (source: emesene): instant messaging client. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.11.4+dfsg-0ubuntu1 (natty), package size 1450 kB, installed size 6932 kB
<micahg> charlie-tca: ah, right, but a lot of the python packages have python2.6 files still I think
<charlie-tca> GridCube: no, I don't think we install emesene by default
<GridCube> mmmkay
<GridCube> i though you did
<GridCube> say charlie-tca, why don't you think that xubuntu should be an entry level linux distro?
<charlie-tca> Because you need some experience to be able to configure everything. Ubuntu does it all for you, but Xubuntu does not.
<micahg> we have pidgin, why would we need emesene
<GridCube> we have pidgin? really?
<GridCube> i think we have empathy
<charlie-tca> nope
<GridCube> oh... im messing things up
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu has empathy, we give you pidgin and xchat
<GridCube> I see
<GridCube> i don't remember having pidgin on 10.04
<charlie-tca> We have had pidgin for a very long time
<GridCube> XD oh. well i guess its just me never using it then
<charlie-tca> We never switched to empathy or gwibber or what ever
<GridCube> oh, well sorry then
<charlie-tca> np
<micahg> charlie-tca: do you want to seed pidgin-mbpurple so people can use twitter/identi.ca?
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> is that why it don't work?
<charlie-tca> Do we have room?
<GridCube> if you delete gimp...
<micahg> well, once we get it undersized again, pidgin-microblog is only 137k
<micahg> so I'd say yes :)
<charlie-tca> sure, then let's do it
<charlie-tca> GridCube: see, how easy is it to know to install that?
<micahg> we can always drop it towards the end if we need the extra space
<charlie-tca> entry-level?
<GridCube> XD
<GridCube> ok ok
<GridCube> but i like xubuntu and i find it pretty awesome to use, i guess it lacks a few easiness things i dont see
<charlie-tca> It is easy to not see some things. 
<charlie-tca> especially when it works for you!
<GridCube> I understand
<madnick> hehe, plymouth scripting its pretty neat stuff :)
<charlie-tca> :)
<madnick> I will need more information in regards of exactly what to implement, I guess I should send that request on the ML?
<knome> madnick, yeah, that would be cool
<madnick> I'll do that tomorrow, now I have to go to bed
<knome> sure
<knome> good night
 * GridCube adverted a crisis by using a fan to air dry the wet books that were given back to him
<knome> errmmm
<GridCube> ah the little things about working on a library that no one tells you, raining days
<charlie-tca> well, at leawt the cats with helmuts didn't hurt the books
<knome> helmut? lol
<GridCube> yep thats true
<GridCube> a helmut is a very dangerous thing to trow at a book, not even talking about cats here
<charlie-tca> That's true. I would suppose though with the cat is even worse?
<GridCube> hair charlie-tca , lots of wet hair
<charlie-tca> true. That does come from the cats
<knome> that could come out of a Helmut, too
<GridCube> hahaha
<charlie-tca> Well, yes it could!
<charlie-tca> lol
<knome> well, that was definitely a weird movie
<raul_> Hi!
<knome> hello
<raul_> how are you?
<knome> fine, and you?
<raul_> me too, thanks!
<raul_> I'd like to contribute in a new xfwm theme for xubuntu, but I don't know how
<GridCube> ochosi is the one you need to talk to
<knome> raul_, you could start by joining the xubuntu-devel mailing list and introducing yourself
<raul_> Hmmm, I write a "mockup" in CSS3 http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7086/screenshot0725201108411.png
<knome> raul_, https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel
<raul_> thanks
<knome> no problem
<knome> this channels isn't a bad channel either, but i think ochosi is going to be away for a week now
<raul_> so I could send my time via e-mail?
<raul_> theme*
<raul_> *-)
<knome> that too, if you have something ready, but please also tell who you are, and maybe why do you want to contribute etc.
<knome> i suppose we are using the greybird theme for oneiric though
<raul_> yes :)
<knome> so is that theme in css, or is it xfwm already?
<raul_> is xfwm already
<raul_> I write the design in CSS
<knome> ah, right
<raul_> and I take a print screen of the page and edited in GIMP
<knome> at least then it wouldn't hurt to include the xfwm theme in the mail
<raul_> but I don't made the stick and shade buttons yet D:
<knome> (if it's a complete xfwm theme already)
<knome> doesn't matter really
<knome> charlie-tca, ?
<raul_> this is based in original greybird xfwm theme
<charlie-tca> yup
<knome> charlie-tca, is it decided that greybird will be in oneiric?
<charlie-tca> Yes, I think it is. 
<knome> okay
<charlie-tca> I don't know, maybe ML or shimmer ML?
<knome> charlie-tca, there's no "shimmer ML" :)
<charlie-tca> well...
<knome> raul_, you can also send the theme at least to simon@shimmerproject.org, please also cc me, pasi@shimmerproject.org
<charlie-tca> Let you and ochosi take a look and see what you think
<raul_> thank you very much
<knome> the theme doesn't look bad at all
<knome> it reminds me much of the xfce default xfwm though
<raul_> but I don't have time to finish this theme (the shade and stick buttons are not completed)
<knome> raul_, no problem
<raul_> ok :)
<raul_> I could also send the CSS3 design file?
<knome> raul_, if you want, that's fine too
<raul_> hm thanks, but only work in webkit engines
<knome> no problem
<knome> i don't know if we have time to finish the theme in the near future either though
<knome> ochosi is currently working with upgrades to greybird and i'm working with multiple other projects
<raul_> I planned to make a gtk theme, but I don't know if next version of xfce will have gtk 3
<knome> i have no idea either
<raul_> great! I love greybird
<knome> we're actually also making modifications to the albatross theme, do you know that?
<raul_> no, I love Albatross but I didn't like the xfwm theme :(
<knome> i think those window buttons could give at least some inspiration for the facelift, if not even use those
<raul_> :D
<knome> the xfwm theme is the xfce default
<knome> i kind of like it, but it's a bit too contrasty, maybe
<raul_> I could make a black version in this weekend
<knome> are you good with icons, btw?
<raul_> no :(
<raul_> I made four themes
<knome> well whatever the case, here's what i think would be the best thing to do:
<raul_> but I abandoned the project and I've lost them
<knome> after ochosi has come back from his holiday (maybe in a week or a bit more), come back here or #shimmer, and let's have a talk
<raul_> I making this theme (called 'rain') since last wake
<knome> do you know the shimmer project?
<raul_> week*
<raul_> ok :)
<raul_> I will try to remember D:
<GridCube> *bookmarks*!
<knome> (here's something that we've tested as the new albatross xfwm buttons: http://temp.knome.fi/shimmer/albatross/new_xfwm_proposal.png)
<charlie-tca> Can come back here and ask about building a theme again. We will point to #shimmer
<knome> ..and we're hanging around here with ochosi anyway
<raul_> this theme is inspired by google chrome buttons and Windows Longhorn milestone themes http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs46/f/2009/231/3/d/Longhorn_Air_Theme_Final_by_giannisgx89.jpg
<knome> raul_, mm-hmm. i don't know windows theming much :)
<knome> raul_, anyway, nice to see new people that are interested in artwork
<raul_> :), I always wanted to contribute in xubuntu artwork, 'cause xfce is my favorite desktop environment
<raul_> now, because I didn't like KDE, Gnome 3 and Unity
<knome> raul_, btw, there is the xfce design special interest group as well, so you can contribute upstream!
<raul_> don't*
<knome> http://wiki.xfce.org/design/start
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-26
<raul_> great!
<raul_> thanks for the tip
<knome> no problem
<knome> that's a quite new project also
<raul_> the only problem is the title of window is not correctly aligned
<raul_> unless I put all buttons in window (shade, stick, max, min and close)
<raul_> I couldn't find a solution for this...
<knome> i suppose that's never right in the center if you don't have the same amount of buttons in both sides
<knome> i don't think you can affect that within the theme, it's in the xfwm code
<knome> to find that out, maybe ask in #xfce-dev
<raul_> I think the same way
 * ochosi starts reading the log
<knome> OOOH
<knome> the ochosi
<knome> you didn't go to holiday then? :P
<raul_> oh! I forgot something: the css3 code that I made is a little messy D:
<raul_> I'm not very good in Inkscape, so I had to do the graphics of rain theme in html and CSS
<ochosi> knome: i'm leaving tomorrow (to shorten the backlog)
<knome> hehe
<ochosi> the xfwm theme doesn't look bad at all
<knome> raul_, so there is ochosi/simon ^ !!
<raul_> hi :)
<ochosi> the buttons are a bit big, but i like the shades
<ochosi> hey raul_ 
<knome> ochosi, it's quite like the old albatross, right?
<raul_> I plan to make a black variant also
<ochosi> hmyeah, actually one problem that catches my eye is that the minimize button and the menu-button are the same
<ochosi> that
<ochosi> that's not a very good idea imo
<raul_> yes :(
<ochosi> raul_: does the theme pick up gtk-colors?
<raul_> I do not know what to put in menu button :( 
<raul_> hm no... D:
<ochosi> k, well that can be dealt with later (color-pickup)
<raul_> I used gcolor2 and I was looking in it until I find a good color
<raul_> then I got this mix of blue and gray
<ochosi> mhm, it should be no problem to do that with color-pickup
<ochosi> it's a bit of work, but then the xfwm theme will also work with other themes/colors
<raul_> I was thinking about removing the menu button because if you right-click it window the popup appears
<ochosi> yeah, well, that's not really the point :)
<raul_> in window*
<ochosi> i think that a theme for xfwm should be complete, because users might change the default setup
<raul_> hmm
<knome> agreed with ochosi
<raul_> was also thinking of another icon because it looks like the minimize button
<ochosi> in your setup it's clear which is the menu button and which is minimize, but everyone can change the button order by d'n'd (and that's a good thing)
<ochosi> another thing: what happens when you reorder the maximize/minimize/close buttons?
<ochosi> (i mean visually)
<charlie-tca> ochosi: I started the panel review on the ML
<raul_> It looks a bit strange :(, I do not know, but xfwm has a limitation on the "padding" button, I'll try to see it
<ochosi> charlie-tca: yeah, just saw that. thanks!
<ochosi> raul_: what padding button? (not sure i get it)
<raul_> The problem is the rounded corners 
<ochosi> rounded corner of the window?
<ochosi> or of the buttons
<raul_> if all buttons be square, the bug is fixed
<ochosi> ah, right
<ochosi> well there are also other things you can do, e.g. only show that 3d-ish border on hover
<ochosi> or only make the close-button stand out
<raul_> but square buttons looks strange too, it doesn't combine with the rounded corners of the window
<ochosi> yeah, i agree, the effect is nice
<ochosi> but it comes at a price
<ochosi> (oh wow, am i speaking in rhymes?)
<knome> haha
<knome> artists...
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> yeah, i guess it's because i'm sober ;)
<knome> hah, !drunkard
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> raul_: what are your thoughts on the "-" and "+" greybird uses for maximize and minimize?
<ochosi> knome: yeah, we should really get the bot back in #shimmer!
<knome> ochosi, i was having some rum earlier... :)
<raul_> I will send another screenshot
<raul_> http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2821/screenshot0725201109160.png
<raul_> (the focus button)
<ochosi> that's on hover?
<raul_> pressed
<ochosi> ah
<knome> this theme maybe reminds me of windows vista somehow
<raul_> :P
<knome> the not-completely square buttons
<ochosi> would you mind just sending me the theme via email, so i can test it a bit?
<ochosi> yeah, it's pretty vista-ish ;)
<raul_> I think about increase the inset shadow
<ochosi> with this i guess people would be bitch-slapping us for looking like mac *and* windows
<raul_> this theme is inspired in old longhorn themes and the buttons of google chrome in Windows
<ochosi> mhm, i see
<raul_> and equinox too
<ochosi> what i like is the separator between menubar and window-borders
<knome> mm
<ochosi> and the bg-gradient
<raul_> :) 
<ochosi> that could even work with the current greybird-buttons
<knome> huh?
<ochosi> i mean adding a separator between menubar and window-controls/borders
<raul_> oh! I forgot, the hover buttons: http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9222/screenshot0725201109200.png
<knome> ochosi, mm
<raul_> (this is the css version)
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> i'm thinking maybe we can have the window-border with separator on active windows and merged (as in the current greybird theme) in inactive windows
<ochosi> (yes yes, i know we've been there...)
<knome> haha
<raul_> yes, I pa
<raul_> planned*
<raul_> to make a gtk theme for this xfwm theme
<raul_> but I don't know about gtk 2 \:
<ochosi> knome: well, now that lubuntu is closing in on us theme-wise again, i guess it's a good idea to take a step ahead into the past ;)
<knome> haha
<raul_> and "merge" the window and menubar
<raul_> like shiki-colors, elementary, ambiance theme and equinox
<ochosi> raul_: merging them is not too hard
<ochosi> but first thing you should do for that is support xfwm's gtk-color pickup
<ochosi> which means you have to have xpm and png icons for every button
<ochosi> (twice the icons, twice the work to draw/maintain)
<raul_> hmm
<raul_> http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5691/buttongm.png
<raul_> this is the pressed buttons of min and max
<ochosi> i like that more than the pressed button of close
<knome> mm
<ochosi> the light reddish color looks a bit like you couldn't decide between going red or not :)
<knome> ochosi, something like this is what i kind of tried to achieve with the new albatross buttons
<raul_> so, I make all buttons with blue color? (hover and pressed?)
<ochosi> raul_: no, maybe make the red a tad stronger
<ochosi> knome: if you want we can work more on them when i'm back
<raul_> hover or pressed? or the two?
<ochosi> raul_: don't think i've seen hover of the close-button
<knome> ochosi, yeah, whenever you have time :)
<ochosi> raul_: +only
<ochosi> err
<ochosi> i'm getting tired...
<raul_> fine :) http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/4670/closez.png
<raul_> this is the hover of close
<ochosi> mhm
<raul_> or I already sent this? 
<raul_> oO I forgot
<ochosi> nope, don't think so
<knome> i'm not sure if i like the red hue
<knome> it's a bit dirty, while the other colors look like metallic or something like that
<ochosi> ok, if you look at the hover of max and min and close, the max/min is 1) a lot more saturated and 2) has a different gradient/glow
<ochosi> that should be more consistent
<raul_> and if the close button be blue too?
<raul_> hmmm
<ochosi> probably, then it's less vista-ish i guess
<raul_> fine, I'll change :)
<raul_> thanks
<knome> if it's blue too, then it won't have the contrast to the other buttons any more
<ochosi> np, i'm just telling you what i think :)
<knome> it might be white as well
<raul_> hm D:
<raul_> maybe orange?
<raul_> hm, no D:
<raul_> or navy blue
<raul_> Well, if I rearrange the buttons (max, min and close), some of them don't have the side edge. I tried to put a negative value in the "spacing button" but didn't work
<raul_> button spacing, I mean
<ochosi> mhm
<ochosi> don't think there's much you can do about that
<raul_> http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/991/closeminmax.png I don't have any idea how to fix this \:
<ochosi> raul_: as i said, i don't think it's really fixable
<raul_> oh, sorry 
<ochosi> btw, you can test the changes i did (and am doing) to greybird by downloading it from our git-repository
<raul_> is this repository https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird right?
<knome> raul_, yes
<raul_> the xubuntu 11.10 will come with gtk 3?
<raul_> (thanks)
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu 11.10 will use gtk2, but we have to include gtk3 for the parts we borrow from Ubuntu
<charlie-tca> It's kind of complicated.
<ochosi> it basically means we have to have two themes, one for gtk2 and one for gtk3 apps
<raul_> that's why I decided to don't start making a gtk theme for this xfwm theme, because I don't know if I'd use 3 or GK2
<raul_> gtk 3 or 2
<raul_> gtk2 I know a bit
<raul_> but some engines like murrine, no :(
<raul_> hm, the github is very slow today, 6.0 kb/s
<ochosi> lucky for you the tarball isn't very large ;)
<raul_> :P
<raul_> 4 min left, but chrome can't finish the download
<ochosi> pff, that's annoying
<ochosi> are you sure it's github's fault?
<raul_> I think yes :( 'cause my other downloads are normal
<raul_> (I pause them)
<raul_> 8 min :|
<raul_> I think is the https
<raul_> hm, the download failed
<ochosi> weird
<ochosi> works fine for me...
<raul_> I removed the "https"
<raul_> and is 27 kb/s now
<ochosi> https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/tarball/master
<ochosi> did you use this address?
<raul_> yes
<ochosi> hmkay
<raul_> but if I put the https
<raul_> I can't download
<ochosi> to the worst try again later/tomorrow
<raul_> looks very great!
<raul_> I like the main colour
<raul_> and the panels
<ochosi> thanks
<ochosi> nice to hear
<raul_> a inset shadow in the button of active window would be great in my opinion
<raul_> like ambiance
<ochosi> how exactly?
<raul_> http://design.canonical.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/theme_image04.png
<raul_> Like this
<raul_> see the "broadcast" button
<ochosi> still not sure i get it. what exactly?
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> you mean on the panel?
<raul_> the shadow :)
<raul_> of the active window button
<ochosi> yeah, but on the panel :)
<raul_> yes:)
<ochosi> i thought you were talking about window-buttons
<raul_> I like the albatross panel buttons too
<ochosi> yeah, that could look nice, i'll consider it
<raul_> the albatross panel buttons have more details
<raul_> I tried to make a modification of greybird with the albatross panels but I don't know
<raul_> I couldn't to this, I think is because of the difference of the gtk engines
<ochosi> greybird generally uses a very flat panel style
<ochosi> nope, they both use murrine for that afaik
<raul_> strange .-.
<raul_> the xubuntu 11.10 will have the overlay scrollbars too?
<ochosi> probably not by default
<raul_> so, I can send my xfwm theme via e-mail?
<raul_> I can upload in skydrive/mediafire too
<ochosi> no, email is better
<raul_>  xubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com, right? 
<ochosi> hm, yeah, if you want it to be public, then send it to the mailing-list
<raul_> Hm... which another e-mail I can send?
<knome> simon@ & pasi@shimmerproject.org
<ochosi> you can also send it to me if you like :)
<ochosi> knome posted his and my email addr avobe
<ochosi> arr, above
<knome> adobe?!
<raul_> thanks I sent the e-mail
<raul_> with the css file too
<ochosi> k, thanks!
<knome> thanks
<raul_> :) I find a hack to get the buttons with the window line
<raul_> I left a blank space in active close/max/min button
<knome> raul_, so if we will use some of your work, what name should we use in the attribution, and what license too?
<raul_> GPL (I use greybird xfwm theme for this)
<raul_> and "Raul de Sousa"
<knome> okay, thanks
<raul_> I don't have twitter, and this e-mail is not my main e-mail
<raul_> I pretend to migrate to g-mail soon
<knome> hehe
<ochosi> raul_: hm, the buttons feel a bit bulky and big tbh
<raul_> I don't like hotmail D:
<ochosi> and the color doesn't match the new greybird-blue :)
<knome> if you are changing your email, can you send mail from that when you've migrated, so we'lll get the right address too
<raul_> hmm, which colour I can use?
<raul_> a light colour?
<ochosi> either implement gtk-color pickup (as previously mentioned) or redraw all the icons each time the colors in the gtk theme change by hand :)
<ochosi> that's approximately the options you have
<ochosi> unless you decide to keep the colors static, no matter what theme is used
<raul_> hmm, so I will modify the css code and print the page again
<ochosi> yeah, that's also an option
<raul_> but I don't understand the gtk color pickup yet :(
<raul_> can you explain please?
<raul_> about the gtk*
<ochosi> k, it's not that difficult:
<raul_> I'm a novice in themes
<ochosi> you create an xpm-version of each button, then you edit the xpm-file (that you created e.g. in gimp) with a text-editor and edit the line that contains the main bg-color
<ochosi> you can read about how to do that step here: http://wiki.xfce.org/howto/xfwm4_theme
<raul_> xpm can be edited in a text-editor? o_O
<ochosi> yes
<raul_> I didn't know that
<ochosi> xpm is kinda oldschool, but very cool
<raul_> interesting
<ochosi> so that's the first part
<raul_> but why I have to do this with the theme?
<raul_> is something like rgb colours etc?
<ochosi> obviously you can take almost any color from the gtk-theme and then your xfwm theme will "pick up" the color you selected from the gtk-theme you're using at the moment
<ochosi> meaning: it will change when you switch themes
<ochosi> chameleon-style
<raul_> so I have to make png files too, right?
<raul_> but xfwm doesn't use them :|
<ochosi> yes, because with xpm there's a problem: no antialiasing and no transparency
<raul_> example: the rounded corners window, doesn't have a anti-aliasing
<ochosi> you mean the edges?
<ochosi> yeah, the edges aren't 100% smooth
<ochosi> but that's mostly a rendering issue of xwfm's compositor, there's nothing you can do about that (as a themer)
<raul_> so I have to edit only the parts that contain active_hilight_2, active_color_2 etc?
<ochosi> you can only adjust the rounded corners to either dark or light background
<ochosi> well...
<ochosi> you can start with that
<raul_> or everything?
<raul_> omg :P
<ochosi> but e.g. for the gradient in the title, you have to do something else
<ochosi> there you have to create an xpm that is flat (only a single color)
<ochosi> then you create a transparent gradient in gimp and save that as png
<ochosi> that'll serve as overlay to create the actual gradient
<ochosi> and since the png overlays the xpm you'll then get a gradient on your window that can change background color
<raul_> But if I leave my theme as it is, it will happen some bug in xfwm-compositor?
<ochosi> it works like with layers in gimp
<ochosi> no
<ochosi> you can also leave your theme as is
<ochosi> but then it won't adjust to color changes
<ochosi> (auto-adjust)
<raul_> ahh! now I understand it :P
<raul_> finally
<raul_> like elementary xfwm theme?
<knome> heh :)
<ochosi> just an example, try greybird's xfwm theme with a dark gtktheme
<raul_> I notice that it changed to black when I apply a theme here
<ochosi> yeah, actually i did that theme ;)
<raul_> :D
<ochosi> but anyhoo, yeah, also like elementary's xfwm
<ochosi> k, since that's clear now i'll leave you :)
<raul_> I will study the xpm in this weekend, because I don't have so much time available :(
<ochosi> have fun and good night everyone!
<knome> night simon!
<knome> have a nice holiday
<raul_> good night and thanks!
<ochosi> raul_: yeah, no rush with anything, i won't be back till next week ;)
<ochosi> knome: thanks, see ya!
<knome> ochosi, tue?
<ochosi> yup
<knome> okay, see you then!
<raul_> ok, thanks again!
<knome> raul_, you're welcome :)
 * ochosi waves
<knome> \o/
<knome>  |
<knome> /'\
<knome> bye
 * ochosi loves knome's ascii art
<knome> hihi
<knome> me too
<ochosi> and i'm off...
<raul_> :P
<raul_> I will leave too
<raul_> goodbye and thanks :)
<knome> raul_, bye, and see you too
<raul_> hey! I have a question about IRC
<knome> sure
<raul_> I didn't understand the ISP e-mail address in my profile
<knome> right
<raul_> I never used the irc before, today is my first day on it
<raul_> I'm a bit paranoic with security
<knome> the username (before @) is what your username in the machine is, and the part after @ is your address
<knome> if you want to hide that, you probably want a cloak
<raul_> hmm, but why I'm the only who have my username as my machine?
<raul_> oh, well
<knome> huh?
<knome> http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks <- on cloacks
<knome> -c
<raul_> hm thanks!
<knome> in most irc clients, you can set the username to whatever you want
<knome> (the part before @)
<raul_> but this don't have any problem?
<knome> yeah, many people irc with no cloaks and username as is
<knome> but if you want, you can get the cloak to hide your host address
<raul_> i'm back
<raul_> sorry, my HD is broken so xchat froze
<knome> a-ha
<knome> now your ip shows
<raul_> omg DD:
<raul_> I'm so paranoic
<knome> that's actually something you can't control, without that cloak
<raul_> how can I hide this? I didn't understand yet
<knome> read the question in http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
<raul_> so I will not come back anymore
<raul_> well, good bye D:
<charlie-tca> Kubuntu is dropping gtk3 off their cd's tomorrow
<Unit193> That's a little too much for scroll back, anyone mind my lazyness and give me the jist of the raul part? :P  (Wanting to give a xfwm theme)
<mr_pouit> the current feedback for the panel layout is "meh". It seems they didn't even look at the layout in natty
<knome> maybe somebody should send a screenshot of the default natty panels in the ML then
<mr_pouit> micahg: http://paste.ubuntu.com/652408/ (diff of the manifest file between alpha2 and today) so pinyin is probably the culprit
<micahg> mr_pouit: is there a way for me to do that or do you just have local copies?
<mr_pouit> of the manifest? I took them from cdimages.ubuntu.com
<madnick> I've looked deep into Plymouth, its all very smooth and neat, I am formulating a message for the ML about the theme, I will need to talk to the artists about what features they require, what they want animated etc
<madnick> Here is what it looks like when you use the current bg, i think it looks pretty neat, http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/plymouth.png
<madnick> ochosi was the artist right?
<charlie-tca> yes, ochosi is the artist, but is on holiday for the next week
<charlie-tca> I like that screenshot
<madnick> oh okay
<madnick> I found this on the mailingl ist
<madnick> http://lehrer.schule.at/goell-pregesbauer//wp-content/xubuntu_logo_suggestion_3.gif
<madnick> Anyone know who made that?
<charlie-tca> I don't know, and with knowing, we can't use it
<charlie-tca> Maybe knome or ochosi will know
<madnick> yup :)
<charlie-tca> The problem is, that is an old logo
<madnick> oh okay
<charlie-tca> We no longer use that one
<charlie-tca> Here are the new ones - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork
<madnick> I'm not sure what to put in the email :(
<micahg> mr_pouit: ah, right, alpha2 is there as well as the daily :)
<charlie-tca> madnick: something along the lines of:
<charlie-tca> I am designing a new plymouth screen for Xubuntu. Here is what I have so far, what else should be in this?
<madnick> okay, well, if the artist wishes, he could really get free hands and ill just code, otherwise i need to know a few things; should a new background be used instead of xubuntu-greybird? The progressbar, do we want something fancier? FSCK leaves us alot of oppertunities for cool stuff
<charlie-tca> Those are questions to ask, in the email, then.
<madnick> yes
<madnick> :)
<charlie-tca> Then you get to say what *you* want the artist to animate, too.
<charlie-tca> point to keep in mind, if we put in a background, it may stay there for a very long time.
<madnick> :)
<madnick> yeah
<pleia2> charlie-tca: thank you! :)
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
<GridCube> good evening
<GridCube> remember yesterday storm i was telling you about? well it broke lots of electricity lines and i wont be having power there for like 3 days
<charlie-tca> ouch
<charlie-tca> That's a pretty bad storm
<charlie-tca> everybody okay?
<GridCube> indeed, and it was just like 15 minutes or so
<GridCube> yep luckly, accordign to the news only one people died at all
<GridCube> besides that a lot of broken powerlines, thats why they cant restore it quickly, because they fear that some loose cable will cause an accident somewhere
<charlie-tca> I see. They just want to make sure they find all the breaks, then.
<GridCube> yep
<GridCube> i just bought a batery radio XD
<astraljava> Holy crap! GridCube, where was this? Hope you'll be fine!
<GridCube> :) it's all fine, it was just a wind storm
<Unit193> You think you may get sewer backup?
<TheSheep> server?
<Unit193> sewer = funnels crap away (basically)
<astraljava> No idea, but sewer backup sounds really exotic.
<TheSheep> who would backup their sewer contents? %)
<astraljava> Ahh... yeah.
<charlie-tca> that was the turtles and cats storm here yesterday
<charlie-tca> I don't remember it having servers too?
<astraljava> Yeah yeah. Damn. Didn't think of the sewers at that point. That's... nasty.
<Unit193> TheSheep: Nice! :D
<knome> madnick, the plymouth theme looks nice! we're planning to create a new wallpaper for oneiric, but i suppose changing the BG image isn't too hard (and it's going to be blue too, so it's fine to test this way)
<knome> madnick, imo we could have a really thin progressbar, that would have the same kind of glowing style than the logo does
<Unit193> I didn't even know you could have a progress bar with this one (I know they had it in the working usplash ones)
<knome> madnick, one possibility is to use the animation used in the uplash earlier, with the "sparks"
<madnick> :)
<TheSheep> remember the 'running mouse' xfce logo animation? :)
<madnick> Thanks
<knome> madnick, do you need any files for the animation now?
<madnick> Not yet
<knome> madnick, or, what kind of file is it supposed to be? png with frames on top of each other maybe?
<knome> madnick, did you get my idea of the progressbar?
<madnick> Im reading it now :P I just jumped into IRC :P
<knome> okey, np
<knome> (me too)
<GridCube> i always liked this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Karmic?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=karmic-sparkles-01.ogv
<madnick> knome: yeah i think i get it
<knome> okey
<knome> GridCube, that's the other possibility :)
<madnick> GridCube: that also works
<knome> but i think we should go with the bar
<madnick> that may be a "cleaner" approch
<knome> yeah, and it doesn't shout "hey, we're just reusing all old stuff here"
<madnick> :P
<TheSheep> what's wrong about reusing?
<madnick> But we could also do alot of things with fsck
<TheSheep> btw, you could possibly adapt some android startup screens
<knome> TheSheep, many people might think the project is staleish
<GridCube> and this one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Proposed/AllImages?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=screenshot_1.png
<knome> madnick, do you have any ideas?
<GridCube> XD I know, we move on, but the past is awesome too
<knome> GridCube, uh, that's the old logo
<TheSheep> knome: the word is "stable" :D
<charlie-tca> Many also think the project is doing fantastic, though
<madnick> Well, i had one idea, but its not as clean as yours
<GridCube> knome: butstillawesome
<knome> TheSheep, no, there is also "stale" :)
<knome> GridCube, heh, if you say so ;)
<madnick> regarding the fsck i dont really know
<knome> charlie-tca, sure, but we don't want to make people think we might be staleish with our artwork, do we? :)
<TheSheep> I'm not sure doing a graphics overhaul every release counts as "alive"
<charlie-tca> I haven't seen anyone indicating that
<TheSheep> we have to go DEEPER
<knome> TheSheep, practically it doesn't mean that, but that's how people/users interpret things, sadly
<TheSheep> knome: pics or didn't happen
<charlie-tca> since we have new artwork almost every release, I would like to know where those people are that are saying it is "stale"
<knome> TheSheep, ;)
<knome> charlie-tca, i was referring to the hypothetical situation that we reused the old usplash animation
<charlie-tca> Then it is not reality. There is no "stale", and anything we do to plymouth will be new.
<knome> charlie-tca, exactly, that's what i tried to say. i told we might not want to use the old animation, so that the people wouldn't think the project it stale
<GridCube> but the mouse running on the wheel is so cute XD
<charlie-tca> As to new wallpaper, if there is one in the works, it needs to be ready before beta2
<charlie-tca> or better, before beta is released
<knome> charlie-tca, beta2 is when, and when is the ui freeze?
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule
<charlie-tca> 25th of August?
<knome> the ideal situation would be to get it ready before the ui freeze, yeah
<knome> madnick, would the fsck bring in an another progressbar?
<madnick> Its hidden atm
<knome> mm-hmm
<knome> what about text, how much?
<madnick> It does bring in text too
<madnick> But I was planning on rewriting most
<knome> how much of it?
<knome> ah, okay!
<knome> good
<knome> so we can control that
<knome> nice
<madnick> yes we can do whatever is desired :)
<knome> btw, where did you grab the logo with glow, or did you do it yourself?
<madnick> Nope thats default
<knome> right
<madnick> Then opacity changes
<knome> mm
<knome> i wonder where my source files are
<knome> ;)
<madnick> /lib/plymouth/themes/foo/bar.script
<madnick> :]
<knome> no, i mean for the glowing logo
<madnick> oh!
<knome> ah, here it is
<madnick> are you going to change it?
<knome> no, not really
<knome> just working on a mockup
<madnick> ok
<madnick> knome: in your mind, how long did you see the progressmeter?
<madnick> Im thinking not very long
<knome> maybe a bit less wide than the logo
<madnick> ah yes same
<knome> that's actually one of the things i'm looking to now
<knome> :)
<madnick> :D
<knome> madnick, http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft1.png
<knome> bbl
<madnick> that looks sweet :)
<madnick> ill implement that, and try to get some screencap 
<madnick> (im not sure how to make that nice fade effect of the white part)
<knome> mm
<madnick> i couldnt steal it all because
<madnick> It was "double faded" or similar :P
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft2.png
<knome> something like that for the fsck?
<knome> (the "normal" progress bar could go back and forth, but the fsck bar could just fill up from left to right)
<GridCube> oh nice
<madnick> okay
<madnick> yes
<madnick> i can show you what i made just now
<madnick> its not as nice as that
<charlie-tca> at least need something that says the fsck is being done. Right now, it is a blank screen
<GridCube> i wonder, what about complementary colors? 
<GridCube> like an yellow/orange glowing progress bar?
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/foo.ogg
<madnick> the progressbar is too wide in my example i guess
<madnick> also i guess i need to fix that quick reset
<knome> don't know, looks okay
<pleia2> madnick: not sure this has been mentioned, but I don't really care for the mac-like controls on the example you posted to the list, my brain is small, I find them confusing :)
<pleia2> and animations--
<madnick> pleia2: its an xubuntu theme :P
<knome> pleia2, why animations--?
<madnick> Aqualemon
<knome> pleia2, or, animations-- in what context?
<pleia2> yeah, there are a few that copy aqua, I don't like them
<pleia2> knome: I don't want bouncy things, that's why I use xubuntu rather than kubuntu :)
<pleia2> animations are distracting
<knome> pleia2, in normal GUI you mean, not the plymouth theme? :)
<knome> (i think in some places, constant visual feedback is nice)
<pleia2> ah I see, the email was strictly about plymouth (I don't live animations anywhere, but it's more tolerable there)
<knome> madnick, GridCube: maybe the text messages in plymouth could be on bottom of the screen
<pleia2> sorry :)
<knome> live ;)
<madnick> Sure
<knome> pleia2, if you are copying files, do you want an animated progressbar on the progress, or just get no visual feedback at all? :P
<pleia2> knome: progressbars just lie anyway :)
<madnick> Its only because how people expect them to work :P
<knome> yeah, but isn't it nice to have *some* visual feedback on what is happening
<pleia2> yeah, you're right
<knome> (or if something is happening at all)
<pleia2> knome: how's the wordpress theme doing? canonical sysadmins have been super responsive lately, it's weird
<knome> i definitely don't like the kde-style playground world either where everything is spinning around
<knome> pleia2, payback time, let them taste their own medicine
<knome> ;)
<pleia2> haha
<micahg> pleia2: congrats on becoming a Xubuntu Team member
<pleia2> micahg: thank you :)
<charlie-tca> If we really expect them to cooperate with us, we should get things rolling sooner.
<knome> madnick, http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft3.png
<madnick> yes, very nice!
<knome> charlie-tca, of course.
<madnick> But do we need the second status bar then?
<madnick> progress*
<knome> madnick, if we want, the text could be the same blue than the second bar
<knome> well, that's visualizing a totally different process than the normal one
<knome> if you have four 4TB drives, you probably want to know what the progress is
<madnick> true, but couldnt we put the progressbar down there?
<knome> i don't think it would look cool
<madnick> like just above the text 
<madnick> oh okay
<madnick> well, ill set it up :)
<knome> the text is kind of just an additional nice gesture, so you don't have to wonder what's happening when the boot is taking so long
<knome> if it's possible, we might even have a slight delay for the text
<madnick> ok
<knome> if stuff takes <5-10 seconds, don't show the text at all?
<knome> i don't know
<madnick> yes its doable
<knome> i'd like to keep the elements at minimum
<knome> that's why i want the text to be not at center
<madnick> I wont be able to have an example tonight, and tomorrow im gone for half the day, but in the evening i might have something you can look at
<knome> and this way, it doesn't matter much even if the text was a bit longer
<knome> okay
<knome> no hurry :)
<madnick> ok :)
<GridCube> sorry knome http://imagebin.org/165030
<GridCube> XD
<knome> thanks for the work :)
<knome> GridCube, awwwh :)
<knome> no, i don't think that really "does" it
<knome> pleia2, you'll love that mockup by GridCube for sure!
<GridCube> all the same color is boring
<pleia2> blue <3
<pleia2> orange </3
<knome> orange is the new apple!
<GridCube> XD
 * pleia2 hugs GridCube 
<GridCube> its complementary colors
<GridCube> XD the only thing about art i know
<knome> all the same color looks more professional, by far
<knome> it's hard to get color combinations to work well
<knome> at least if they are complimentary colors
<GridCube> well the yellow one does look good
<knome> looks like somebody spilled some pee in the progress bar
 * knome hides
<GridCube> XD
<madnick> its my flag basically :<
<GridCube> :P I just bucketed yellow over your thing XD
<knome> madnick, i'm sorry for you (not for the flag, but the country)
<knome> ;)
<madnick> :D
<knome> come visit helsinki
<knome> :)
<madnick> I sometimes go on Finland cruise
<astraljava> knome: I don't think we have anything to boast, really, seeing as our flag inventors weren't sure whether we're christians or satanists. :D
<knome> you live near/in stockholm, or somewhere else?
<knome> astraljava, but isn't it the same with the swedish flag as well, except they peed on theirs?
<madnick> I spend alot of time in Kiruna, but I have my more permanent home 200 km from stockholm :)
<astraljava> Ahh, okay, then it's not any different for madnick. :)
<knome> wow, that is a far away ;)
<astraljava> Not so sure it's pee. Maybe they're just too pissed it resembles their skin colour better.
<astraljava> Oh wait, I might be thinking France now.
<madnick> its quite far :)
<astraljava> This is #xubuntu-offtopic, right? ;D
<knome> you might be actually as far away from Sysi than me
<knome> astraljava, this is #xubuntu-devel(-offtopic)
<knome> aka #the-xubuntu-chillout-lounge
 * astraljava ^5's knome 
<knome> astraljava, so which was your city again? :P
<astraljava> Currently, Oulu.
<knome> charlie-tca, https://launchpad.net/~irc-xubuntu-ops/+members#active - is this up-to-date?
<astraljava> Don't expect that to last for too long, though.
<knome> astraljava, so there's really nothing else to do in oulu than open source? :)
<astraljava> knome: I see you've visited, sometime?
<knome> oulu, no :|
<astraljava> How did you know, then? :D
<knome> heh, magic
<knome> well, just look at the percentage of people from oulu amongst the finnish ubuntu contributors?
<astraljava> Well, granted. I love JyvÃ¤skylÃ¤. But so far, it feels much, much superior.
<astraljava> Really?
<knome> i don't know
<astraljava> Is that number somewhere public?
<knome> you, Sysi, jussi01...
<knome> that's three already!!
<astraljava> Who's Sysi?
<knome> WOOOT
<astraljava> Yeah, coolness.
<astraljava> We're in the same company with jussi. :D
<knome> Sysi is somebody who occasionally hangs out here too, but at least in #xubuntu
<knome> you are? haha
<astraljava> Ahh... o kay.
<knome> a young guy who is not so sure if he likes xfce or kde :D
<astraljava> Hahaha!
<astraljava> Youngsters.
 * astraljava rolls eyes
<knome> he's been giving some valuable feedback at #shimmer about xubuntu stuff
<knome> ;)
<astraljava> Oh okay, that's cool.
<knome> i've even met jussi!
<astraljava> I'm sorry. :(
<knome> lol
<astraljava> ;)
<knome> he is a funny guy with the most hilarious laughter i've ever heard
<astraljava> That's true,
<astraljava> you can't escape it, no matter where in the office you hide
<knome> OMG :D
<pleia2> and jussi will be a father soon ;)
<astraljava> ...or if you have the headphones on, and volume turned real up.
<knome> but i have to say, jussi also thought i was *WEIRD*, so i think we're even, and you can tell jussi you're sorry too ;)
<astraljava> pleia2: That's the part that truly scares me. :D
<pleia2> astraljava: me too, I told him so :)
<knome> haha
<knome> at least he'd get a guy who is on the same level to play with him
<knome> ERRR
<astraljava> And to think, his wife is awesome! :D
<knome> haven't met HER :(
<pleia2> I haven't either
<knome> astraljava, is she.. formally qualified?
<astraljava> knome: They're not even in the same universe. :D
<knome> pleia2, i haven't met you either! :)
<GridCube> formally qualified?! XD
<knome> astraljava, that was not a surprise
<knome> astraljava, but how the heck did jussi manage to pull that move off then??
<astraljava> I have no idea. :D
<knome> astraljava, or are you saying his wife is worse?! omg...
 * astraljava wipes away the tears
<knome> even thinking about that makes my brain melt
<astraljava> knome: HAHAHAH!!!
<knome> GridCube, mm-hmm, you know... the form of an object... ;)
<astraljava> Nah, seriously, awesome people, both of them. I've spent nights there, when I was just relocating etc.
<astraljava> Really cool folks to hang out with.
<knome> yeah, i believe you
<knome> jussi really felt like he had a big warm heart, even if he was a bit weird
<astraljava> And Jussi's like more finnish than I am.
<knome> ;)
<knome> so are you more australian than he is then, at least?
<astraljava> knome: You have it spot on.
<astraljava> In a sense.
<knome> heh
<astraljava> I like the heat better than he does. :D
<knome> :D
<pleia2> he made the sauna in budapest almost-die hot
<knome> haha
<astraljava> Well yeah, apart from the sauna.
<knome> hehe
<knome> astraljava, so where are you going/trying to relocate?
<astraljava> But see, that's the finnish thing.
<astraljava> I just moved from JyvÃ¤skylÃ¤.
<knome> true. i'm not a very "durable" sauna person either
<knome> astraljava, but you said you're not going to be in oulu for long? back to jyvÃ¤skylÃ¤ then?
<astraljava> knome: I have no idea. We have an "office" in Dallas. Might go there. :)
<knome> woot :D
<pleia2> wow, that's quite a change
<astraljava> Oh, that's just a fantasy.
<pleia2> ah :)
<knome> isn't it "just a mystery"
<astraljava> From what I know, it's the closet of the sales guy we have there. :)
<knome> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__DrJI7mTHQ
<astraljava> It'd still beat the winters here. :)
<knome> hopefully not the water closet
<knome> that'd beat YOU
<astraljava> Haha!
<astraljava> Both to that and the video.
<knome> the song is amazing, i know.
<astraljava> I had no idea those two made a show together!
<knome> lots of shows, actually
<knome> or at least, been together in lots of shows
<astraljava> Well, yeah, but didn't know of that particular show.
<astraljava> Thanks for linking to that!
<knome> mmh
<knome> no problem
<knome> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHNXMgBSei0
<astraljava> *facepalm*
<astraljava> I simply must have these on DVD. :D
<knome> good. come visit me with them and we can watch them and my monty python's
<astraljava> Stephen is a god, pure and simple.
<knome> he is funny yeah
<astraljava> And Hugh's not far from that, really.
<knome> have you seen QU ?
<knome> err, QI
<astraljava> Alright, will do.
<astraljava> Not sure, no.
<knome> try that too
<knome> it's a nice quiz-like show with fry
<astraljava> Watching Cockney Rhyming Slang now.
<knome> alan davies is actually funny too!
<astraljava> Oh indeed he is! Always thought as much.
<knome> he's a regular at QI, so lots of fun with that couple too in that series
<knome> i love how the show is so relaxed, no real rush to get all the things/questions in the show really, they'll sometimes take long long sidetracks
<astraljava> Yeah. They don't do such shows anymore, do they? I mean, the showbiz?
<knome> i think QI might still be on
<astraljava> All the best ones have been done, by the british, decades ago.
<astraljava> Really?!
<astraljava> w00T!
<knome> yeah, watched it from BBC when i was visiting london in february
<knome> might have been replays too though, but i have a feeling that the show might still be on
<astraljava> That's really nice of them.
<knome> "QI are recording the I series in May and June 2011, which will transmit on BBC2 in the autumn."
<knome> I series as in the ninth series
<knome> too bad there is only DVD's from the first three series
<knome> otherwise i might be hooked in buying them all!
<astraljava> Goddamn. We must get on a frenzy of writing demanding letters to the BBC. We'll visit their HQ, like the guy from imnotrightfromthehead.com did (or something.)
<astraljava> Oh, but that was Facebook, not BBC.
<knome> heh
<knome> if i've understood correctly, even the three first series were published because some loony with lots of money wanted to donate some of them so they could do some DVD releases
<astraljava> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRDusNquuqk&feature=related
<knome> hmm
<knome> haven't seen that
<knome> haha, funny
<astraljava> Oh dear gawd! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPXCcZgDQgk&feature=related
<astraljava> When you hear it, you cannot unhear it.
<knome> THAT's FUNNY!
<knome> and you can't unsee those skills either
<knome> that orange-shirted guy
<knome> that's just OMG
<knome> i want to be able to eat spaghetti like that
<astraljava> Hehehe.
<astraljava> Oh knome, knomeknomeknome... I will never forgive you for introducing me to this show. Neither will Jussi, I believe, tomorrow at the office. :)
<knome> hehe
<knome> tell jussi he owes me one beer more if he likes the show
<astraljava> Oh I will do so.
<astraljava> He promised me beer too, if I helped painting his house.
<knome> hehe
<knome> sometime, come both to helsinki
<astraljava> I will then commence drinking the beer he owes you, and forget to pay it back (to you) when we meet.
<knome> haha
<astraljava> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfjvRR41How&feature=relmfu
<knome> haha
<knome> i can imagine jussi giggling while looking at that clip
<astraljava> Indeed.
<knome> did you know there is the full episodes also?
<knome> just start with http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLb9Pv7EM2M
<knome> (nice theme music as well!)
<astraljava> Curse you to hell!
<knome> har har
<astraljava> I'm already unproductive with the clips, thankyouverymuch!
<knome> hehe
<knome> now you're going to have things to do at work tomorrow at least!
<knome> and jussi too!
<knome> gosh, i'm hungry
<knome> shouldn't have watched the gordon ramsay clips
<astraljava> Hehehe. :)
<knome> going to grab something
<knome> hhm, gordon ramsay -quality tuna straight from the can
<knome> ;)
<astraljava> Oh, that's the best. :)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-27
<knome> i think it's time to prepare going to sleep
<knome> good night and see you tomorrow/later! :)
<astraljava> Have a good night, sir!
<charlie-tca> knome: I don't know if the ops list is up-to-date. I never saw it before
<knome> mr_pouit, read the problem of Wizard in #xubuntu 
<madnick> Hm, I did not concider this, we will need some neat graphics for the text input label of the plymouth theme
<madnick> I made it simply a black label for now
<knome> madnick, text input?
<madnick> knome: it can promt for password
<knome> a-ha
<knome> need to think about that
<madnick> :)
<knome> it's not too straightforward
<madnick> its crawling up to 1k lines slowly ;)
<knome> hehe, nice
<knome> i was wondering...
<knome> can we fade in the fsck bar/text
<madnick> yes
<knome> that would be cool
<knome> and maybe just fade in everything
<charlie-tca> please don't
<madnick> :D
<knome> charlie-tca, ?
<charlie-tca> makes the eyes go nuts
<charlie-tca> many people can not handle much in the fading thing
<charlie-tca> small bits fading are fine, but a lot of it makes it unusable for a lot us
<knome> then maybe just fade in the fsck stuff
<madnick> well, if its just the FSCK it happens every 20 boots i think
<madnick> and we decided we shall not display anything unless it takes +5 seconds
<knome> or anything else that might come up after the initial draw
<knome> fsck can be even less than every 20 boots :)
<madnick> iirc it does a forced check
<charlie-tca> So, if boot gets down to 10 seconds, and we wait 5 seconds to see the fsck, people will think it broke?
<knome> charlie-tca, fsck usually takes longer than 10 seconds anyway
<madnick> Atm fsck isnt even showing, in the script that was there
<knome> charlie-tca, the reasoning behind that was to NOT show any useless stuff unless it's taking long (>5secs)
<knome> charlie-tca, reduces the amount of information sent to the user, who might not understand what something meangs
<charlie-tca> I know, my point is if the boot is very fast, 5 seconds can be a long time
<knome> -g
<knome> exactly.
<knome> but it's not too long
<knome> anybody will wait for 5 secs
<charlie-tca> will the user see the splash screen or a blank
<madnick> splash
<madnick> it will look like its loading
<charlie-tca> no, they won't. They will report bugs if it takes 50% longer to boot at times
<madnick> okay
<charlie-tca> people time the boot process. If it takes 10 seconds some times, and 15 seconds other times, they will file bug reports for boot taking too long without knowing why it is doing that.
<knome> charlie-tca, i disagree. if they get feedback after 5 secs on what's happening, it is not too slow. booting always takes way more than 50% longer if the fsck check jumps in.
<charlie-tca> so, the fact that it takes my computer 1 minute to boot, sometimes and 1 and 1/2 minutes at other times, you don't think I would question?
<knome> charlie-tca, no, because after 5 secs, you are getting feedback on what is taking that 30secs longer.
<charlie-tca> That 5 seconds is the same for some people. It is a great deal of time to them
<knome> charlie-tca, the thing is, they'd have to wait that 5 seconds anyway
<charlie-tca> but they should know why they are waiting
<knome> they will, after 5 secs
<charlie-tca> They should not have to wait 5 seconds
<charlie-tca> They should know during that time what is happening, if it is not a normal boot time for their computer
<knome> they will have to wait for the fsck process to finish anyway
<charlie-tca> Then why can't they be told immediately?
<charlie-tca> We need to tell the user what any delay is, that we know of.
<charlie-tca> Not create a wait for them to find out
<knome> if a process takes less than 5 seconds, why clutter the interface, because the user might not understand what the message means anyway, or have time to read it.
<knome> right now there is no visual feedback on fsck, as madnick told
<charlie-tca> If they don't understand the message, why bother with one at all?
<knome> i'm okay with leaving the text out, if you really think so.
<charlie-tca> The no feedback is why it needs to be added to plymouth. 
<charlie-tca> There is a bug report for that
<charlie-tca> Then stop working on it
<charlie-tca> There is no point in you making decisions that are wrong
<knome> err
<knome> i don't like people who are attacking me personally.
<madnick> okay, so we go with showing the text and progress directly
<charlie-tca> yes
<charlie-tca> The whole idea is telling the user something is happening
<charlie-tca> If we are not telling the user what happened, we are creating a problem for them.
<charlie-tca> As boot times drop, it becomes more important to tell the user as much as possible.
<madnick> yes
<charlie-tca> 5 seconds is very little at 1 to 2 minutes to boot.
<charlie-tca> 5 seconds is twice as long at 5 seconds to boot
<knome> madnick, do you think it would be too hard to create the version with the delay and take a screencap, just so i could see how that would look?
<knome> astraljava, woot, you didn't tell jussi about QI?! :)
<madnick> knome: i could create a seperate version for you :)
<madnick> and sceencap
<knome> madnick, thanks. at first i'd just like to see how that looks like. charlie might be right about it, but i want to see if this made it visually more clear, as i suspect.
<madnick> do you also want the fadeS?
<knome> if that's not too much work
<madnick> ok sure
<madnick> it'll take a lil while
<knome> no problem, and thanks a lot!
<madnick> knome: i do have some issues with the textbox however
<madnick> We cannot use the old one
<knome> what kind of?
<madnick> And I tried making different colors, but it was just not blending in
<knome> so do you just need artwork for that, or is there other problems too?
<madnick> No thats the only problem 
<knome> okay
<knome> i'll try to create something that fits in later today
<madnick> I can show you how that part looks
<knome> sure
<madnick> dont pay attention to the graphics, its from a version im testing stuff on
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/screen_selection_00.png
<madnick> just the box
<knome> uh, yeah, that doesn't work...
<madnick> too me, its too transperant, i wouldnt see it
<knome> that's the box for the text, or the text input?
<madnick> yes
<knome> which one?
<madnick> oh, for the text input
<madnick> sorry i read it quickly
<knome> yeah
<knome> i'll try to come up with something
<knome> something as unobtrusive as possible
<madnick> in the version im giving you, do you need the progressmeter for fsck? because that will need to simulated
<knome> if possible, yes, but it doesn't have to "move"
<madnick> okay
<knome> just fade in something
<knome> :)
<madnick> sure
<madnick> knome: here is the fade http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/fade.ogg
<knome> imo that looks good.
<knome> i think you have to ask the project lead though, if he approves
<madnick> I dont like the fade personally :)
<knome> we can leave that out too
<knome> i'd maybe fade in the fsck text
<madnick> Well, if people want fade, ill do fade ofcourse
<knome> not necessary really
<madnick> knome: i can show you how that looks
<knome> let's get it done otherwise as ready as possible
<knome> then think about the polishing stuff
<madnick> okay
<madnick> Its not much left to do on the technical part
<knome> okay
<madnick> Well, some fsck stuff, but otherwise not
<knome> will the progressbar bg be transparent in the final version like in my mockup?
<madnick> I could programmatically make it transparant, but you could also provide transperant png that you would like to use
<knome> sure!
<knome> just a sec
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/progressbar_bg.png
<madnick> :)
<madnick> knome: dude that looks awesome :P
<madnick> much better
<knome> thanks
<knome> np
<knome> if you need any other stuff, just tell me
<knome> the mockup i made is svg and i can export easily
<madnick> acctually, if its not too much trouble, that white part of hte progressmeter
<knome> sure, just a sec
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/progress_meter.png
<knome> there you go
<madnick> thanks
<knome> will be back later
<madnick> knome: perhaps we should hide the top progress meter when fsck is doing its work?
<madnick> i almost got confused myself :)
<knome> madnick, or stop it?
<madnick> thats true
<madnick> i could try that, and you can have a peek?
<knome> sure
<madnick> gimme 1 sec
<knome> had a horrible migraine attack
<knome> no hurry
<madnick> migrane is aweful
<madnick> used to have them all the time when i was working
<knome> yeah, it's actually worse in the summer, since the hot air doesn't really help
<madnick> darn :) recoded the audio
<knome> haha
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/plyfoo.ogg
<madnick> (nobody worry about the fade, this is just the version of the script im testing stuff on)
<knome> mm, that's not bad
<astraljava> knome: Ahh... damnit! I forgot! Well, at least now there's something to do tomorrow. :)
<knome> i'm not sure if stopping the original slider gives any extra clearness, but it's definitely not bad either
<knome> astraljava, hihi, well i told jussi to ask you about QI
<knome> madnick, what do you think if the normal progress slider went left-right-left-right...
<madnick> that could be arranged
<madnick> it probably better
<madnick> :P
<knome> madnick, i think that's what's been used in ubuntu
<madnick> oh okay
<knome> madnick, it is slighty less obtrusive i think, because nothing suddenly (dis)appears
<madnick> yeah i was thinking about smoothing that
<madnick> but back and forth is also cool
<knome> yeah good! :)
<knome> i think you can also increase the speed a notch
<madnick> okay
<knome> what about using the blue color for the fsck bar, like in http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft3.png ?
<knome> would that confuse less or more
<knome> it kind of tells the user "this is a different process"
<madnick> i think it would be cool, i just didnt have a transperant version myself
<knome> but i'm not sure how people will perceive that
<knome> ah
<knome> do you want me to export something? :)
<knome> the bar background is the same
<knome> it's only the moving part that changes
<madnick> yeah then i just need hte moving part :P
<knome> okay
<knome> how do you want it?
<knome> 1px wide?
<madnick> also, did you think about the text input bar?
<astraljava> OH man, that draft3 is magnificent!
<madnick> knome: if you like
<madnick> i think 1px is fine
<knome> yeah, but no ideas yet
<knome> astraljava, thanks, and thanks to madnick, we're pretty close of actually already having that...
<astraljava> You guys rock!
<knome> madnick, i'm afraid we're losing the "blur" effect on the sides though...
<madnick> well, size does not matter
<madnick> i will scale it accordinly
<knome> hmm
<knome> right
<knome> that might just work
<knome> i'm not sure about how good scaling looks, but let's try
<madnick> yeah
<knome> i have an another idea if that looks bad
<madnick> okay
<madnick> i am a little worried about the text input, because all things i tried was "bad"
<madnick> The best idea I had
<madnick> was putting the input on the top
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/fsck_bar.png
<madnick> thanks
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft4.png
<knome> text input idea
<knome> (insert text on top of the line)
<madnick> knome: the bar looked really good 
<madnick> ok looking
<knome> or, the *****'s
<knome> madnick, nice!
<TheSheep> knome: it doesn't scream "I'm a text input, put text in me" at me :(
<madnick> I feel color blind people could have a problem with this one
<knome> mmh
<knome> what if we added a title
<knome> "Insert your password"
<knome> doesn't that replace the progressbars anyway?
<knome> or am i wrong
<madnick> It could
<knome> yeah,
<knome> let me work on an another mockup
<TheSheep> knome: I think people are really expecting a box, it can have shiny outline, but basically an empty rectangle is what I would expect
<knome> TheSheep, that just looks fugly
<TheSheep> knome: I know it's not nice
<TheSheep> knome: it's a tradeoff
<TheSheep> you knwo what I mean
<madnick> the current "box.png" is that, and i pasted a picture, it did not look that nice
<TheSheep> there are lots of things you can do with a box
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft5.png
<knome> the textbox is always selected anyway, isn't it?
<TheSheep> knome: maybe add a couple of large arrows too ;)
<knome> arrows? lol
 * TheSheep ducks
<madnick> you could say that knome 
<madnick> (its just an illusion)
<knome> there doesn't need to be any visual feedback on that
<knome> but if you type something, it doesn't matter where the input box is
<knome> as long as any input is catched
<charlie-tca> What is the password for? lightdm should have it's own, right?
<madnick> yes
<madnick> its for encrypted disks
<madnick> i use it with alternate cd
<charlie-tca> Oh, I like that idea. Anything would be better than the black box on black background using black text that comes up now
<TheSheep> hm, in that case an explanatory text would be better, then you don't need the box or anything
<knome> TheSheep, did you look at draft5?
<TheSheep> knome: yes
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/draft6.png
<knome> for visual feedback on text input
<knome> (an idea)
<TheSheep> knome: yeah, you don't even need that line
<madnick> oh it goes above?
<knome> yeah, that's what i thought :)
<madnick> sweet man
<TheSheep> knome: just add the huge arrow as we agreed ;)
<knome> TheSheep, and the pink bunny?
<TheSheep> knome: no, but you can make the arrow sparkle
<charlie-tca> Keeping in mind, that is a pass phrase, and could be several lines, too.
<charlie-tca> or can the line be reused as needed to fit everything?
<madnick> Yeah it wouldnt be great moving down the boxes
<TheSheep> "type the first two chapters of your novel here"
<madnick> if we added a marker
<TheSheep> an arrow!
<madnick> if would be like when entering into a password <input> html box
<charlie-tca> well, at least 255 characters, I think it is for the passphrase
<charlie-tca> but if the machine doesn't have to give new lines, it would be nice, too
<charlie-tca> half the time now, you type blind, hoping it accepts it
<madnick> btw, charlie-tca did we establish no fades?
<TheSheep> hidden passwords are a thing of the past anyways
<charlie-tca> no, we requested few fades, if we are using them
<knome> TheSheep, yeah, let's show it plaintext
<madnick> okay, few fades
<knome> TheSheep, that way you can check if it's correct
<TheSheep> knome: have a checkbox to show it
<charlie-tca> The only requirement is to tell users what is happening, as it happens
<madnick> yep
<charlie-tca> I don't care where they type, how long, whether or not it shows in a box, etc.
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/fade.ogg
<madnick> i made that earler for knome 
<charlie-tca> I like knome's #5
<knome> madnick, let's not use the fade to fade in everything
<knome> madnick, maybe only fade stuff in after the password prompt has disappeared
<madnick> okay, but the text?
<charlie-tca> madnick: my artistic eye screws that up, I can't tell what is happening. knome will judge that better than me
<knome> madnick, mmh, yeah, right
<knome> let's fade in:
<knome> - the fsck bar and the text, ALWAYS
<knome> - the "normal" progress bar after password prompt is faded out
<knome> madnick, does that make sense?
<madnick> yes
<knome> great
<madnick> i wonder how much time we got to fade stuff out however
<knome> just make it a quick transition
<knome> if we don't have time, then heck, just skip fadeout/in
<madnick> We have time for in's, since it only takes less than a second currently
<knome> yeah
<knome> the transition can be pretty quick
<knome> no need to use a 8sec transition ;)
<madnick> :P
<knome> i'm happy as long as nothing doesn't (dis)appear from/to nothingness
<madnick> is something else in the plymouth setup changed?
<madnick> currently fsck is messaged like this
<madnick> (from the new version i mean)
<madnick> plymouth --update=fsck:sda1:0
<madnick> for example, and if thats changed i will need to adjust
<knome> no idea, mr_pouit might know
<madnick> okay
<knome> bah, michael vogt isn't online so i can't bug him either
<madnick> btw, seems the alternate cd's are broken
<madnick> dependency broken
<charlie-tca> for oneiric?
<charlie-tca> desktop images are broken; failed to build today, so yes, I would expect alternate images are broken too
<charlie-tca> They changed lightdm again
<madnick> oh i see
<NWH> Hello: I have a simple question. 
<knome> if it's support question, then use #xubuntu :) otherwise, go ahead
<NWH> How do I edit my html file /var/www/html
<NWH> Sounds like support to me as well. 
<NWH> :) Have a good one. 
<knome> np
<knome> join there, and i'll try to help
<knome> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-28
* ChanServ changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Want to get involved? See: http://xubuntu.org/contribute | #xubuntu for support, #xubuntu-offtopic for general discussion | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Oneiric images are broken
* ChanServ changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Want to get involved? See: http://xubuntu.org/contribute | #xubuntu for support, #xubuntu-offtopic for general discussion | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Xubuntu Community meeting 2011-07-31 | Oneiric images are broken
<charlie-tca> Alpha3 next week and the images are broken for lightdm still! Are we going to get it fixed?
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: what are the bug numbers holding up the live sessions?
<micahg> charlie-tca: lightdm upgrades right now remove xubuntu-desktop, I'm fixing that
<charlie-tca> Great! Thanks for fixing that much. However, we still need to make the live session work in the images
<charlie-tca> upgrading is nice, but we can't even have users run the live cd to do an install easily
<charlie-tca> We have no usable oneiric images this week
<micahg> well, it would be nice not to remove the greeter/xubuntu-desktop from those currently running oneiric :)
<charlie-tca> true. Even better if we could get more people testing oneiric, too, though.
<charlie-tca> micahg: I do appreciate having upgrades work. I managed to keep mine going, but I follow a lot of channels and saw the workaround a few times
<charlie-tca> I did not realize it did remove xubuntu-desktop, though
<micahg> charlie-tca: that's more recent due to the last upload of lightdm which makes the greeter a depends
<micahg> as soon as germinate is done I"ll upload a new meta package which will fix it
<charlie-tca> yes, but without installing the lightdm-greeter-gtk package manually, it still won't work
<micahg> the new metapackage will have the proper greeter as a depends :)
<charlie-tca> upgrades remove the example greeter without replacing it
<charlie-tca> Thank you!
<micahg> I also hopefully fixed the oversized issue and added pidgin-microblog
<micahg> I forgot to remove epdfview, but we can do that later
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> Main issue right now is being to actually our images. They are dead again
<charlie-tca> Main issue right now is being *able* to actually our images. They are dead again
<charlie-tca> Main issue right now is being *able* to actually *use* our images. They are dead again
<madnick> knome: I implemented the fsck functionallity and animation fully, however, im not so happy with the text
<madnick> I dont know if we can use images however, so i need to ask you what you think
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/draft-fsck.ogg
<micahg> my first meta upload \o/
<madnick> (there is no delay, its just me waiting for screen capture :))
<madnick> So dont worry about that part
<micahg> hmm, I wonder why it didn't pick up my other change...
<micahg> well, I can worry about that later
<charlie-tca> :)
<madnick> knome: will need to ratio scale also, in case of multiple screens :(
<madnick> atm it does no such thing
<micahg> ah, the other -meta change wasn't applicable since we didn't upload after the ibus-pinyin -> ibus-sunpinyin change
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Did you know it was me, or were just really puzzled about it? ;) (yes, referring to G+ now) :D
<GridCube> question;  when doing the image editors comparison wiki, what comarisons should i do?
<GridCube> Writen in... | Multiple format support | Crops | Adding text | Simple Interface | rezises | ...
<knome> madnick, try "Droid Sans" for the fonts, with a smaller size. i'd really rather use text than images, because then we don't have to create new images if we want to add new messages
<knome> GridCube, yeah. out of the pure image editing stuff, i think resize, rotate, crop and some really basic (ms paintish) stuff is needed
<knome> GridCube, i also got a reply from the nathive project leader. it's not dead, it's just paused for now, and he's planning to support gtk3 in the future
<GridCube> ok
<knome> GridCube, can you remember what exact features were missing from it so i could maybe ask the process on those?
<GridCube> how can i search the "writen in" part and what should i look at?  ...
<GridCube> i mean GIMP says its GTK+ and Pinta says so too, but pinta uses Mono and GIMP don't how do i point that out on the table and how do i look for such important characteristic on the multiple programs i will have to check?
<GridCube> GIMP says its C+(GTK+) and Pinta C#(GTK+) should i simply add this?
<knome> yeah
<knome> i think that's fine
<GridCube> GIMP > C(GTK+)
<GridCube> ok
<knome> we are probably not going to consider stuff in Qt, but...
<charlie-tca> I don't know half the people by real names. I think that is a problem with google+
<knome> madnick, what do you mean with the scaling?
<knome> madnick, i think the bars can always be 270px, whether it was a big or small screen/resolution
<micahg> knome: GridCube either QT or Mono are an issue due to space, mono has the added issue of controversy
<GridCube> charlie-tca: thats something people is arguiing to google+ people, no nicks, if you change your name on g+ you change it to the whole googleverse
<knome> micahg, yes, that too, but including QT for a simple image editor is just waste of resources too :)
<charlie-tca> GridCube: just put in a comment that pinta requires mono
<knome> doesn't G+ support nicks too, kind of
<GridCube> nope
<knome> there was some discussion on that somewhere
<charlie-tca> no, google actually has been suspending those who use nicks
<knome> i could add your nick into some other field, and it's searched when searching for people
<knome> s/i/you/
<charlie-tca> and the problem is, when they suspend you for using a nick on +, it also suspends all your google accounts, including gmail
<charlie-tca> I am waiting for them to send me notice, since periods in a name are no longer allowed, but when I signed up for gmail, they formatted it firstname DOT lastname
<GridCube> D:
<GridCube> what the... they dont allowed down dashes _ on your names, so people used dots . instead... i used it on many of my mails...
<charlie-tca> That was the only naming allowed at the time
<charlie-tca> yeah, the newest rule is no dashes, dots, or nicks
<GridCube> XD
<GridCube> thats ridiculous
<charlie-tca> oh, and no initials only, too
<GridCube> HAHAHA
<charlie-tca> It's nuts
<GridCube> oh google people, first you do searchs while i write, then you take focus from my mouse on image searches and now you go and do more crazy stuff
<charlie-tca> someone goes by CJ SMITH their entire life, and it might even be their legal name, now must create a first name for google
<GridCube> jajaja
<charlie-tca> but, I guess it is beta, right?
<GridCube> ...
<GridCube> i guess
<Unit193> Looks like I should start stalking people from here too...
<pleia2> your g+ profile has a section for "other names"
<pleia2> that's where I put pleia2 
<knome> Elizabeth Pleia2 Krumbach
<knome> what a weird name
<knome> ;)
<pleia2> pasi knome
<knome> ;)
<pleia2> :)
<charlie-tca> It does?
<madnick> knome: the font changing is really the problem
<madnick> the ratio scaling is needed if there is different resolutions on a dual monitor setup
<knome> madnick, awwh. then just try a smaller text size.
<madnick> i dont like the ratio scaling, it makes the bigger screen get black bars on top and bottom
<madnick> atm such things are ignored, but i dont know if thats the best chooice
<knome> madnick, what if you just cut the bottom/top part away on the larger screen
<madnick> (in the current splash)
<madnick> knome: how do you mean?
<knome> i mean, on the smaller image of course
<knome> just don't show everything, scale to the bigger resolution
<madnick> yes
<madnick> thats what its currently doing
<knome> yeah
<knome> is that bad?
<madnick> nope
<knome> okay :)
<madnick> it just kinda cuts off the "hill" :P
<madnick> basically, the primary screen is used
<knome> that's not a problem
<madnick> so it should not be a problem
<knome> two monitors with different resolutions is not the most optimal setup anyway
<madnick> no, and then turning on the slave monitor 
<knome> users of that can expect some things to be a bit kranky
<madnick> only that monitor
<madnick> yeah, we could skip this, because it does not impact anything else
<knome> yeah, i don't think we should use too much time with it
<madnick> I am using such a setup, and currently even the fb text at boot is screwed :)
<knome> fb?
<madnick> framebuffer
<knome> mmh
<madnick> when is this due? because i could finish it up quickly, but i'd like to polish a couple of things
<knome> ui freeze is august 25, and that's not even a hard deadline
<madnick> oh ok :P
<madnick> so plenty of time
<knome> yeah
<micahg> charlie-tca: hehe: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/lubuntu.oneiric/revision/168
<charlie-tca> hehe
<charlie-tca> everybody steals good ideas.
<charlie-tca> I guess we could be in worse shape, huh?
<Unit193> That is quite funny...
<charlie-tca> We are even going to have a new plymouth running this cycle
<Unit193> That's what I'm REALLY liking! I thought it was stupid to deop the loading bar (Doesn't fully tell you, but gives you more info than just a logo!)
<GridCube> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Oneiric/DefaultImageEditor
<GridCube> lol honesty
<charlie-tca> nice
<charlie-tca> gnome paint is gtk2 and cairo
<charlie-tca> not too many dependentcies
<GridCube> !info gnome-paint
<ubottu> gnome-paint (source: gnome-paint): simple, easy to use paint program for GNOME. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.4.0-2 (natty), package size 91 kB, installed size 832 kB
<GridCube> !info gpaint
<ubottu> gpaint (source: gpaint): GNU Paint - a small, easy to use paint program for GNOME. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.3.3-6 (natty), package size 116 kB, installed size 776 kB
<micahg> !msgthebot | GridCube 
<ubottu> GridCube: Please investigate with me only with "/msg ubottu Bot" or in #ubuntu-bots.  Search for factoids with "/msg ubottu !search factoid".
<GridCube> yes sorry
<GridCube> i actually just wanted to compare gpaint to gnome-paint XD
<micahg> ~same
<charlie-tca> requires a lot more dependencies
<charlie-tca> gnome-paint looks lighter
<micahg> yeah, but they're all fulfilled
<GridCube> fulfilled?
<micahg> we already have the deps
<charlie-tca> even if gimp is removed?
<micahg> yeah
<xrdodrx> gnome-paint has a critical bug that still hasn't been fixed
<xrdodrx> the text tool does nto work
<xrdodrx> I don't think it's a good replacement at all
<xrdodrx> just my 2Â¢
<charlie-tca> add that to the wiki, please
<xrdodrx> https://bugs.launchpad.net/gnome-paint/+bug/711774
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 711774 in gnome-paint "Text Tool is missing" [Critical,Confirmed]
<charlie-tca> How you going to edit a cat picture without a text tool?
<xrdodrx> charlie-tca, exactly! :)
<xrdodrx> I wish it did though, so I could finally get rid of kolourpaint and all its KDE dependencies :(
<charlie-tca> !info nathive
<ubottu> Package nathive does not exist in natty
<charlie-tca> that's a problem too. It will be too late to get that in
<charlie-tca> It's not in oneiric either
<charlie-tca> but, maybe for 12.04!
<charlie-tca> let's see where things go from here now
<xrdodrx> charlie-tca, thanks for the recommendation, I'll have to compile that from source and see how it is :D 
<GridCube> xrdodrx: :P i just found heliospaint, check it, sadly is java XD
<charlie-tca> what recommendation?
<xrdodrx> nathive
<charlie-tca> I highly recommend gimp
<charlie-tca> that wasn't a recommend, it was a comment about it. 
<pleia2> GridCube: nice chart! :)
<charlie-tca> helios paint isn't in the repositories either
<GridCube> thank you, its my very first wiki edit :D
<charlie-tca> hm, still liking gimp, even with a nice chart and all
<GridCube> hahaha
<GridCube> ecks dee
<charlie-tca> OTOH, I will probably use whatever we decide on, at least once
<charlie-tca> I do edit an image every year
<pleia2> heh
<pleia2> I don't actually find pinta's interface to be less confusing than gimp
<pleia2> it's just gimp but inside a box rather than having windows all over the place
<charlie-tca> gimp is down to one box for tools and one box for the image itself
<GridCube> charlie-tca: helios paint is writen in java, i don't think its in any repositorie, i just added there because it works on linux and because its a list and all and for fun to see what effect a java application would cause on the ML
<charlie-tca> works for me
<charlie-tca> java doesn't matter to me, much. I won't use it anyway
<charlie-tca> but that is because I don't understand it much
<GridCube> pleia2: yeah i think i should remove the [Simple Interface] and leave [MSPaintlikeness] alone
<pleia2> I don't even know what MSPaint looks like these days :)
<charlie-tca> We don't much care about MSPaint, but knowing if the interface is simple is good
<pleia2> last I used it was many years ago and it was much simpler than pinta, single bar of tools down the left, file, edit, etc toolbar at the top
<pleia2> so if pinta is considered mspaint like now, mspaint has changed a lot
<Unit193> MSPain is so much different in Win7 than in XP/Vista
<charlie-tca> yup, kind of like gpaint or gnome-paint, I think
<charlie-tca> or maybe even tux-paint
<pleia2> yeah, more like tux-paint
 * pleia2 checks out gpaint
<pleia2> oh yes, gpaint is like old mspaint
<GridCube> yeah pleia2 pinta is paint.NET lookalike, and paint.NET its like the logic evolution of mspaint
<charlie-tca> hm, tux-paint is missing from the table. It has all the requirements, too. paint, text, images
<pleia2> GridCube: ah, I am clearly behind the times with my mspaint knowledge :)
<charlie-tca> simple to use, 
<GridCube> crop and resize?
<charlie-tca> yup
<GridCube> ok adding it
<charlie-tca> Even the kids can use it
<GridCube> :) see you tomorrow :D have a nice evening/nigh/nextday
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-29
<micahg> charlie-tca: FYI, tomorrow's images should have the messaging indicator back
<madnick> knome: could you give me the transperant textbox? :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Want to get involved? See: http://xubuntu.org/contribute | #xubuntu for support, #xubuntu-offtopic for general discussion | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Xubuntu Community meeting 2011-07-31 | Oneiric Alternate images are broken
<charlie-tca> Desktop live session logs in after selecting session today
<charlie-tca> Can not install from desktop, no password accepted
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, micahg : thank you for the live sessions today
<charlie-tca> Install from the menu is working
<charlie-tca> Haven't tried the alternate images yet, but I seen a bug report that they are still broken until tomorrow
<charlie-tca> Alternate images verified broken
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: users are not added to the login screen after installing. hitting "Other...", entering the user name and password allows login though.
<micahg> charlie-tca: same on preinstalled, lightdm bug I think (I'd actually prefer to keep it that way personally)
<micahg> charlie-tca: and we're no longer oversized
<charlie-tca> Yeah, got that one. Thank you very much!
<charlie-tca> I don't mind that so much as not being able to install from the live session. But one step at a time. We HAVE a live session :)
<charlie-tca> micahg: Have you found any arm images for us yet?
<micahg> no, but I haven't looked
<charlie-tca> I been looking, but forgot today. Will go see if I can find them. 
<charlie-tca> micahg: not yet
<charlie-tca> micahg: no mx51 images for alpha3
<micahg> heh, ok
<Wizard> good afternoon
<charlie-tca> Good afternoon, Wizard 
<charlie-tca> hm, moved my launcher panel to the side, now I keep losing it
<pleia2> hehe
<charlie-tca> well, at least not finding it when I go to the bottom of the screen ;)
<Wizard> lol
<Wizard> i have only 600px vertically, and i use a touchscreen (quite large panel, for easy clicking), so all my launchers don't fit vertically
<Wizard> :S
<charlie-tca> I only put a few launchers in the panel, I have about 8 I use all the time.
<charlie-tca> and, shrinking the panel by 4% allows it to not hide the top under the top panel
<charlie-tca> It does have a problem though. It keeps refreshing every few minutes, or maybe it is respawning.
<madnick> how come its hidden by default btw?
<charlie-tca> Keeps a bigger screen available, since as a hidden panel, it can be covered by applications
<madnick> makes sense
<micahg> charlie-tca: meeting sunday?
<charlie-tca> micahg: yup
<charlie-tca> 22:00 UTC
<madnick> found a bug in plymouth, (talked to a dev and he discovered the source and fixed it) but it will still be bugged in xubuntu until we update it
<madnick> this does not impact the boot process
<madnick> But it will impact the X plugin
<madnick> Dunno if you think its worth looking into
<charlie-tca> bug number?
<madnick> http://cgit.freedesktop.org/plymouth/commit/?id=973dd358b9544921604c6cfb5ed1c4cfb052a015
<madnick> i talked to him on IRC
<madnick> so i dont know if its filled a bug report
<micahg> we're a whole version behind Debian + a lot of debian revisions on plymouth
<madnick> oh
<micahg> we've shipped 0.8.2 since lucid
<charlie-tca> So, it's committed to git today, still has to go a long ways to get to us
<madnick> okay
<madnick> It just makes it impossible to simulate while building themes
<micahg> yeah, unless we took that original patch, we won't be affected
<charlie-tca> But thanks for the heads up.
<micahg> oh, wait
<micahg> actually, it would be both patches that would be needed to fix the issue
<micahg> Debian probably has the tty fix w/out the x11 fix
<micahg> we have neither
<madnick> If I knew the build process of xubuntu on this matter, I could fix it locally and keep simulating
<madnick> Because its not a biggie in production
<madnick> Just a big thing when wanting to simulate
<Unit193> Alright, LightDM has no autologin and changes BG color every boot (First had red, second is purple)
<GridCube> i pissed off half the people on the ML  :P
 * Unit193 doesn't send to it for a reason!
<madnick> a RAW image editor?
<charlie-tca> yeah
<Unit193> I'm sorry, but I don't know how to login to LightDM/Oneiric for today, I must be missing something
<charlie-tca> Unit193: yes, but you can login to live sessions now
<astraljava> GridCube: Which ML?
<charlie-tca> just click on Guest, and select Xubuntu session, and click login
<charlie-tca> GridCube: it's going good, isn't it?
<charlie-tca> At least you got a discussion going
<Unit193> Did that the first time, no go :/
<charlie-tca> What/
<charlie-tca> ?
<charlie-tca> I did 32bit in VBox and 64bit on hardware and both worked
<GridCube> charlie-tca: :D its awesome
<Unit193> charlie-tca: I finally got it working. Is there a point for me testing then?
<charlie-tca> GridCube: and maybe they are right, we need a photo app instead of a drawing app
<GridCube> yep
<charlie-tca> yes, Unit193 
<charlie-tca> How do we know I didn't do something stupid and make it work if no one else can?
<GridCube> i was thinking the same thing, that should do the trick and if you need something bigger you sudo apt-get install gimp
<madnick> I did not write anything about replacing GIMP, I like GIMP, for my photos I use my own editor
<charlie-tca> How do you get the photos to the computer?
<GridCube> magic!
<madnick> Me?
<charlie-tca> yes, Me?
<madnick> Well, I use USB mount fat32
<charlie-tca> I never think about photo apps, since I don't have a camera
<charlie-tca> madnick: Have you tried shotwell?
<madnick> charlie-tca: yes
<madnick> I think that its nice
<charlie-tca> Would something like that do more good for users than gimp?
 * GridCube thinks that more people uses cameras than make their own images from scratch
<charlie-tca> I mean, for me, gimp works well, but then again, I have no photos and no camera
<madnick> Honestly, I don't know, but, isnt there a package servery? So its possible to see what people use
<charlie-tca> no
<charlie-tca> we prefer guessing
<madnick> :P
<charlie-tca> people tend to use whatever is default
<charlie-tca> !photos
<madnick> All I really do with my images is: Black and white, add text, rotate
<astraljava> madnick: There's popcon, but that's not enabled by default.
<madnick> over that, I use gimp
<astraljava> Hardly anyone enables it themselves.
<madnick> oh
<charlie-tca> GridCube: let's see what develops there. It might be time to toss gimp and put in photo something?
<Unit193> I'm doing Live entire install
<charlie-tca> I don't think they hate you. Most of them seem to agree that gimp could be replaced
<charlie-tca> Unit193: how?
<charlie-tca> I could not run the install from the live session
 * micahg hopes he has time to review all the image viewer discussions before the meeting
<GridCube> i guess, but the thing is that the default image viewer should have some characteristics that should make it really usable, not just managing an image collection, but actually working whit it, i guess people use image viewers a lot more than editors tho, so that should be the default, and if needed one could add gimp/other
 * micahg thought the default image viewer was ristretto
<madnick> it is
<GridCube> ristretto sucks so much
<madnick> But ristretto has limitations
<micahg> ah, didn't know that was on the table as well
<charlie-tca> does ristretto let you edit a photo, or download them from the camera, or organize them?
<GridCube> lol i even forget about it on the comparison table
<GridCube> no
<charlie-tca> ristretto and gimp are not even close to the same thing
<micahg> there should be a difference between viewer and editor
<Unit193> charlie-tca: there was no password set for guest so I set one for ubuntu and logged into that account and it had the installer on the desktop (And looked correct in general) so here I am now
<madnick> Ristretto wont even let you switch images unless you selected them all
<GridCube> nothing of that charlie-tca it doesnt even let you move trough a folder as its suppose to
<charlie-tca> Unit193: never even occurred to me to try that
<Unit193> Things break, I have to do an odd way to fix them
<charlie-tca> GridCube: let's propose it in the meeting, replace gimp with a photo thingy
<GridCube> ok
<GridCube> i hope i will have electricity back tonight/tomorrow
<charlie-tca> If you want, you can pick which one we want,even
<charlie-tca> I thought you had it back already :(
<charlie-tca> Images are no longer oversized, we can look into adding stuff again. But I think replacing gimp with the photo editor would be a good thing for Xubuntu.
 * charlie-tca is behind technologically. No camera, no mp3 player, no ipod, no wii, no cellphone
<charlie-tca> lol, no nothing
<madnick> I'd be really happy if I could *not* have a cellphone :D
<Unit193> I'm almost the same, but I lost my MP3 player :( I don't know how
<madnick> I hate my cellphone so much
<charlie-tca> I belong to the 5% of USA households with a real landline phone
<Unit193> Another person in our family has one, but I do not
<madnick> Only reason I got a cellphone was to develop android applications :P But I never have any good ideas :(
<madnick> Then people started taking my phone number, and calling me, now im stuck
<dtchen> I have a 3G smartphone so I can fix bugs while I'm on the train.
<madnick> :P
<dtchen> probably a good 80% of my uploads this week have been over 3G
<charlie-tca> I do have a laptop now, at least
<charlie-tca> lol, over $400 in mice, no cellphone
<GridCube> charlie-tca: im at work, but my brother just said to me trough gtalk that he was talking from our computer so i already have power there :D
<charlie-tca> GridCube: great! Glad to hear that
<GridCube> :D yes! now i  can attend sunday's meeting and also can start working on the top 10 FAQ
<charlie-tca> I think I paid more for the mice here than the whole computer now
<GridCube> hahaha
<charlie-tca> You got a lot to do, GridCube 
<Unit193> http://i.imgur.com/t3eFY.png
<GridCube> :D i hope i can do it right
<charlie-tca> FAQ's, photo thing, website reviews...
<charlie-tca> Unit193: very nice!
<charlie-tca> We may not have the installs from desktop working for alpha3, but at least we will have a live session
<Unit193> Not so easy to tell people to switch to TTY1 change password, switch back and login when there is a boot menu for installing :P
<charlie-tca> right
<charlie-tca> but they can try first now, then restart, pick "Install Xubuntu" from the menu and know it will work for them
<Unit193> Exactly! That's one big step!
<GridCube> i have landline phone :P and this is my cell phone http://www.celularis.com/wp-content/uploads/mt/imagenes/1100foto.jpg
<pleia2> GridCube is from the past
<GridCube> :D
<pleia2> :)
<GridCube> best phone ever
<charlie-tca> according to dtchen, you all need 3G now. It just works.
<charlie-tca> Well, that might not be quite 100% what he said, but it's close ;)
<dtchen> it's only relevant if you enjoy fixing bugs more than you enjoy sleeping ;)
<charlie-tca> These people are learning to, aren't they?
<dtchen> charlie-tca: sorry, I don't understand the context of the question
<astraljava> 3G sometimes works, sometimes not. When you need it, the latter.
<charlie-tca> I think they are learning to enjoy fixing things. Most of the people here are new,though
<GridCube> http://www.sysadminday.com/
<dtchen> charlie-tca: ah, yes
<madnick> The 3G net here is really nice :)
<madnick> Most people have 3G modems
<dtchen> astraljava: I find 3G way more reliable than wifi
<madnick> GridCube: lol i got a hug today because of that :P
<madnick> a manly hug :(
<astraljava> dtchen: For CLI, maybe. But trying to use Spotify, or other streaming media, while on the move... huh.
<charlie-tca> Happy System Administrator Appreciation Day, to all the sysadmins out there!
<astraljava> dtchen: Although, maybe it's just the phones I've been using. My 3G modem works fairly well.
<GridCube> Systems Administrators Appreciation Day == SAAD
<dtchen> astraljava: my Nexus S has been reliable, but I concur.
<charlie-tca> Well, maybe not as SAAD as most days?
<Unit193> charlie-tca: I'll call it all working, just had to give it a pass
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> Thanks for doing that
<Unit193> I got wind they were working again. I shouldn't have done an entire desktop 32bit, but it's a test nontheless
<Unit193> *PASS* Just had to give user ubuntu a password and login with that
<charlie-tca> well, we get a PASS for not being able to install from the desktop, too :)
<charlie-tca> I been putting it in the topic if they are broken
<Unit193> Aye
<madnick> there we go, plymouth code complete :) awaiting a "graphical eye" and some testing on a real machine (setting that part up now:))
<charlie-tca> great! got a real machine here running oneiric
<madnick> wanna try it out?
<charlie-tca> is it simple?
<charlie-tca> sure
<madnick> Depends on how you define simple :P
<charlie-tca> Well, you know. When it breaks, how do I get back in?
<charlie-tca> Let's try it
<madnick> oh, well, we back stuff up, and then
<madnick> you run update-alternatives
<charlie-tca> huh?
<madnick> we back it up
<madnick> before we try
<charlie-tca> we do?
<madnick> If you want it back :P
<charlie-tca> okay, let's do it
<madnick> okay, gonna tar the files :)
<charlie-tca> I got systems ready
<madnick> give me 1 sec, need to check so the tar has all files
<madnick> okay uploading
<madnick> charlie-tca: http://madnick.se/~madnick/madnick-working-draft.tar.gz
<charlie-tca> I got that. Now, where do the files go?
<madnick> okay
<madnick> put it in /lib/plymouth/themes
<charlie-tca> okay, do I need to rename the folder?
<madnick> keep it called madnick for now
<madnick> it was easier to test than to rename it
<charlie-tca> okay, got to go eat, then can run it. Will it run on reboot, or ??
<madnick> oh, no you need to run a command first
<madnick> 1 sec
<madnick> sudo update-alternatives --config default.plymouth
<madnick> that should give you all the themes in there
<madnick> and selected the one you put there
<charlie-tca> There is only one alternative in link group default.plymouth: /lib/plymouth/themes/xubuntu-logo/xubuntu-logo.plymouth
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-30
<madnick> oh then we will need to fix a thing
<charlie-tca> I have to go eat first, I guess
<madnick> yeah
<madnick> Ill look up how to do this in the safest manner while you eat ;)
<charlie-tca> okay, back again for a little while
<charlie-tca> I don't suppose I can just replace xubuntu-logo folder?
<madnick> charlie-tca: well
<madnick> backup defualt.plymouth
<madnick> then replace with:
<madnick> http://pastebin.madnick.se/paste.php?id=4e334b3752245
<charlie-tca> okay, default plymouth is a link to a file in /etc/alternatives
<madnick> okay
<madnick> i think that does it :)
<madnick> if you get that setup
<madnick> I am very sorry if it did not work when you did that, its 3 in the morning, and I do not remember exactly what I did to get it working, I have that on my workstation saved however
<charlie-tca> I am still working on it
<madnick> okay
<charlie-tca> I am a bit slow
<madnick> I think it should work
<charlie-tca> okay, got it
<charlie-tca> Now you want to try, huh?
<madnick> :D
<charlie-tca> Any further instructions? (this machine will be rebooted
<madnick> okay
<charlie-tca> back in a minute or two, then
<madnick> i was having instructions :\
<madnick> sudo update-initramfs -u
<madnick> ok, now im a bit scared O_o
 * madnick fears
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> wOw!
<madnick> did it work? :D
<charlie-tca> works well on shutdown
<charlie-tca> fails on startup :(
<charlie-tca> Might be the video card I have, though
<madnick> :((
<madnick> did it say something?
<charlie-tca> I am using the gallium driver for nvidia
<madnick> oh
<charlie-tca> nope, black screen with a dash cursor
<madnick> Did you get the text version?
<madnick> I mean, when you boot normally
<charlie-tca> I will run it on the other three or four computers I have here tonight
<charlie-tca> aw, shit
<madnick> Okay, but knome might have alot of things to say about this also :P Graphically and position wise, so some things may still change
<charlie-tca> yup, I normally get a text screen, and I do have "quiet splash" on the boot line
<madnick> oh
<madnick> okay
<charlie-tca> but the shutdown screen is real impressive
<madnick> i need to test this on a computer with cryptsetup 
<madnick> and fsck force too, so i will be working on that tomorrow
<charlie-tca> I don't run encrypted on any of my machines, but I could do an encrytped install tomorrow
<madnick> that be cool
<charlie-tca> Okay, it is too late tonight for me to do that, but I have one ati machine, another nvidia machine with nouveau driver, and an intel machine
<madnick> yeah same, i be heading to bed in 10 minutes :P
<charlie-tca> so, we can try it on all of them
<charlie-tca> okay, Thanks for working on that so much. It is really looking good.
<madnick> thanks
<charlie-tca> so, my other nvidia machine doesn't get a plymouth screen either. And that is before trying the new files.
<charlie-tca> moving on, will have to run installs on the other two to test it, but I would not get shook up about these nvidia card machines not working with the new plymouth.
<Unit193> I may be able to do a VM (Yes, hardware is much better)
<charlie-tca> vm won't work
<charlie-tca> It always shows a text version instead of the graphic version
<Unit193> That's what happens half the time on hardware
<charlie-tca> true
<charlie-tca> If you can do it, by all means
<Unit193> Was never that bad with usplash :/  Worth it in Natty?
<charlie-tca> Unit193: bans in any #ubuntu, #ubuntu-offtopic, #xubuntu, #kubuntu are discussed in -ops
<Unit193> charlie-tca: Thanks, I noticed because of the !ban factoid (IRC, making yourself look like an idiot everyday! :P )
<charlie-tca> Don't know if it will work in natty. If you have a vm that normally shows the plymouth screens instead of text, it should work
<charlie-tca> A lot of them are habitual abusers
<charlie-tca> I can't run these installs tonight. 
<charlie-tca> I will try tomorrow
<charlie-tca> I am done tonight. Good night, and have a great weekend.
<Unit193> Alright. Have a good one, see you Monday?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #xubuntu-devel to: Xubuntu Development | Want to get involved? See: http://xubuntu.org/contribute | #xubuntu for support, #xubuntu-offtopic for general discussion | Schedule: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule | Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu | Xubuntu Community meeting 2011-07-31 | Oneiric images at http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/
<charlie-tca> login never adds the user to the screen now. we have two entries for logging in, Guest or Other.
<charlie-tca> even after restarting, we only get those two entries. The user must hit Other, enter both user name and password.
<charlie-tca> I don't get any plymouth splash screens herre in oneiric after installing. 
<charlie-tca> madnick: I don't even get splash screens without the changes
<madnick> charlie-tca: you mean without loading my theme?
<charlie-tca> We have something broken, maybe from all the bad syncs
<madnick> ah
<charlie-tca> madnick: yes, without your theme, I still don't get a splash screen
<madnick> well, i tested on my laptop and my workstation
<charlie-tca> and that is any video card
<charlie-tca> You would think, with nvidia, ati, and intel video here, I would get at least one to work
<madnick> okay, im gonna download the images of oneiric and try more
<madnick> charlie-tca: it should look like this: http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/xubuntu
<charlie-tca> Okay, at they are working today, as long as you login using Other and enter both username and password
<madnick> okay
<madnick> ill give a shot
<charlie-tca> I see them on shutdown, I just get black screens on starting
<madnick> i had that exact same problem
<charlie-tca> nvidia is probably not working with the frame buffers again
<charlie-tca> that is common for nvidia
<madnick> im gonna try without any drivers
<charlie-tca> okeydokey
<charlie-tca> I also get splash screens at shutdown without your changes, just the one that says "xubuntu"
<madnick> well, normally you should run update ram disk
<madnick> 1 sec
<madnick> Pasting 3 lines, I was gonna tell you yesterday but you left before I had the chance:
<madnick> 02:15 -!- charlie-tca [~cjk@ubuntu/member/charlie-tca] has quit [Quit: WeeChat  0.3.5; I seem to be leaving now ...]
<madnick> 02:15 < madnick> i was having instructions :\
<madnick> 02:16 < madnick> sudo update-initramfs -u
<madnick> But since you got it work without doing that, i did not mention it anymore
<charlie-tca> Oh
<charlie-tca> but it should still give me a splash screen before I make the changes?
<charlie-tca> I don't get one here. I am getting the blank screen on booting
<madnick> ah
<madnick> Well, I'm gonna look deep into this and talk more to the plymouth devs 
<madnick> Plymouth is still not "ready for AS-IS" use, they say
<charlie-tca> I wonder if we are missing that command for some reason
<charlie-tca> Let me boot this ati machine again and see
<madnick> :>
<charlie-tca> Oh, goody. Lightdm doesn't even remember the session now
<charlie-tca> Okay, rebooting. No changes made yet, still trying to see if I get any splash screen first
<charlie-tca> well, nope
<madnick> hm
<charlie-tca> what a deal
<charlie-tca> This is probably the roughest alpha releases since at least 6.06
 * charlie-tca has come across people that were able to upgrade all the way from 6.06 to Oneiric
<charlie-tca> They actually have had to reinstall oneiric now
<madnick> ok, download complete, is the live session presistant on usb?
<madnick> using usb creator
<madnick> nvm that question :P
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> good question
<charlie-tca> Does it even work?
<madnick> The image? Im not sure yet
<madnick> need to format my usb drive
<charlie-tca> changes made to the system with the ATI video card, let's see what it does
<charlie-tca> hm, same as before I made the changes. Get a beautiful splash screen for shutting down, and a blank screen to startup
<charlie-tca> It's official, I give up
<madnick> it's odd, hm, im gonna try to get it working on boot, somehow
<charlie-tca> um, live cd is different. I see the xubuntu splash when it boots
<charlie-tca> to further make life difficult
<madnick> :D
<madnick> could be a driver issue then i suppose
<charlie-tca> I guess I will eat lunch and then fix the leak in the swimming pool
<charlie-tca> It doesn't make my head hurt as much
<madnick> :)
<charlie-tca> but, hey, at least you know I have all these systems to test on, right?
<madnick> yep :D
<madnick> what was the work around to get into the live cd?
<madnick> set password myself?
<madnick> okay i got in
<charlie-tca> You can just go to session, Xubuntu, then click guest
<madnick> problem is i need the password to change stuff
<madnick> like connect to wifi :P
<madnick> okay, got the ubuntu user 
<madnick> im good
<madnick> I narrowed the problem down
<madnick> Plymouth cannot read the files at boot
<madnick> why? I have no idea :)
<madnick> charlie-tca: success! :) http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/xubuntu.3gp :P
<madnick> charlie-tca: success! :) http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/xubuntu/yay.3gp ... err, that is the correct URL
<charlie-tca> um, that came up blank
<charlie-tca> madnick: what do I need to do to make it work?
<madnick> charlie-tca: restore default, do a: update-alternatives --install /lib/plymouth/themes/default.plymouth default.plymouth /lib/plymouth/themes/madnick/madnick.plymouth 100
<madnick> then run: update-alternatives --config default.plymouth, all this as root btw, then finally run update-initramfs -u -v
<madnick> however, so far I had no luck forcing fsck 
<charlie-tca> you can force it to run in two boots using
<charlie-tca> sudo tune2fs -c 2 /dev/sda1
<charlie-tca> if you change the 2 to 0 or 1, it fails for reasons I don't understand
<madnick> charlie-tca: thanks, ill try that
<madnick> What I found was "shutdown -rF -now"
<charlie-tca> well, that's frustrating
<charlie-tca> nothing
<charlie-tca> still no splash screen with the ati card
<madnick> :(
<madnick> Ive got an ATI machine sat up soon, will try myself, but i think there is some options one can set to force a splasj
<madnick> fsck working! :) now to try ATI :)
<madnick> charlie-tca: confirmed working with HD4200 series driver 
<madnick> 8.851
<madnick> 61*, sorry, i will try nvidia next, then a friends ATI
#xubuntu-devel 2011-07-31
<knome> madnick, if you need something, can you just ask again? i can export stuff later today
<madnick> knome: yep, i need the textbox and the dot, also i need your opinion, because the functionallity is done
<madnick> knome: http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/xubuntu
<knome> just give me a sec and i'll check those
<madnick> :)
<madnick> keep in mind that im not using your graphics for the passwords etc, so it looks a bit unpolished
<knome> sure
<madnick> also the fonts have changed
<knome> hmm, the fsck font looks... stomped?
<madnick> yeah
<knome> otherwise everything in fsck2.ogg seems perfec
<knome> +t
<knome> i think less space between the dots would be nice
<madnick> I changed to the default font, which I think is reasonable
<madnick> okay
<knome> i'll export you the textbox and the dots in a sec
<madnick> but did you want in the textbox or above as in your draft?
<knome> yeah
<madnick> okay
<knome> or i don't know
<knome> maybe it's better to show the indicator/progress anyway
<knome> that's actually pretty nice
<madnick> yeah i acctually wanted to show that
<knome> let's do it like you've done it
<knome> yup, that's good
<knome> is there any ways to get the default font look better??
<madnick> We can acctually do different things at boot / shutdown also, but i had no ideas
<madnick> i think the default fonts looks ok, its just a bit big
<knome> it looks streched :(
<madnick> yes, it is in this demo, i changed it
<madnick> 1 sec
<knome> sure
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/inputbox.png
<knome> and
<madnick> http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/xubuntu/font.png
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/oneiric_plymouth/inputtext.png
<madnick> thanks 
<knome> okay, that's better. can you make the text smaller?
<madnick> Thats the problem
<madnick> I cannot set font size
<madnick> I can scale
<knome> also, i think as a message "Performing routine disk drive check..." would be better
<knome> and a bit more polite...
<madnick> sure
<knome> can you scale both directions? :P
<madnick> hehe yes
<knome> then what about ~80% of that?
<madnick> but keep in mind this: different screen sizes
<madnick> it will be scaled according to that
<madnick> When you boot 
<knome> with bigger screens everything is bigger, or just the text?
<madnick> So it will not be this big
<knome> yeah, this big comparing to the other stuff
<knome> can we lock text size at n points?
<madnick> I will see what I can do :)
<madnick> I will percentage scale it
<knome> okay, thanks
<madnick> hm, that creates a bug that makes no sense at all :P
<knome> right
<knome> bbl probably later today, but no idea if/when
<knome> anyway, thanks again and see you!
<madnick> cya
<Unit193> I have no background in image processing or plymouth, but I love what you have done with it
<madnick> Unit193: you can look at: http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/xubuntu also i hope that before the meeting, i will have the code completed in the updated version
<Unit193> Aye, that I have open now. How much did you have to write? (How many lines might be better)
<madnick> Its about 450 lines in the updated versoin
<GridCube> :(
<GridCube> :)
<madnick> :o
<GridCube> typoed
<Unit193> Wouldn't that be a... Faco? XD
<GridCube> oh today's meeting is in 2 more hours, i though i was late again
<madnick> Yeah, so i hope i will have my theme almost done + tested on all machines again
<madnick> :D
<madnick> 2 hours is alot of time (not :()
<GridCube> not indeed
<GridCube> unless you are bored
<madnick> true
<madnick> at boot, (even with default resolution) "error: incompatiable license. vga=792 is deprecated. Use set gfxpayload="insert resolution / any is wrong" before linux command instead.
<madnick> So I cannot test anything :( I dont know where this is logged either, if it is logged
<charlie-tca> um, incompatible license shouldn't stop booting.
<charlie-tca> vga= is pretty much obsolete now
<charlie-tca> since they no longer use vesa and vga drivers, they use the frame buffers instead
<charlie-tca> Should all be logged in either dmesg or xorg.log in /var/log
<madnick> It was set by the package "startupmanager"
<madnick> as per the ubuntu tutorial
<madnick> Im trying to get the splash working at all costs 
<charlie-tca> ubuntu tutorial is, like most stuff, Ubuntu oriented?
<charlie-tca> It may or may not apply to Xubuntu
<madnick> charlie-tca: the package is in xubuntu however
<madnick> It is an utility for this purpose soley 
<charlie-tca> All the packages in Ubuntu are in the repository for Xubuntu too, but that doesn't mean they work as tutorials are written for Ubuntu.
<madnick> oh
<charlie-tca> You have to modify things to make them work with Xubuntu and Xfce.
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu community meeting in #xubuntu-devel in 60 minutes. Everyone is invited to attend. Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<astraljava> I'll see if I can stay awake. Anyhoo, didn't have much time for testing since the last meeting. However, I now have my machines in the apartment, so testing on real hardware commences. :)
<Unit193> madnick: It should work, but it has issues at times
<madnick> Unit193: the splash?
<charlie-tca> We didn't have images most days to test
<Unit193> Startupmanager
<madnick> ah
<madnick> im doing manual edition now :)
<Unit193> I got a few tests in
<madnick> I've got it installed on all my machines + vms :P Just to get this splash thing to work 100%, then I can do more testing also
<micahg> charlie-tca: I have to leave at 35 past
<charlie-tca> Okay
<charlie-tca> Not sure these sunday meetings are serving much purpose. We seem to get good participation on Mondays, and weak meetings on Sunday
<knome> it's summer
<knome> any day is bad
<GridCube> :)
<dscorzoni> why?
<micahg> well, are the people who requested a sunday meeting attending?
<GridCube> i am
<charlie-tca> Okay, Are We Ready?
<charlie-tca> Let's get started then, huh?
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<knome> micahg, i can't remember ;)
<charlie-tca> Welcome to the Xubuntu Community Team meeting
<charlie-tca> The agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> * Old business
<charlie-tca> * Team updates
<charlie-tca>   * Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca>   * Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca>   * Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca>   * Artwork
<charlie-tca>   * Documentation
<charlie-tca> * Announcements
<charlie-tca> * Governance structure
<charlie-tca> * Any Other Business
<charlie-tca> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.   If someone wants to comment during the updates, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC} === Old Business ===
<charlie-tca>  * Charlie to dig for the xscreensaver updates, and put in an SRU - Carried Forward
<charlie-tca> Still no time to dig for this. If anyone has time, feel free to jump on it.
<charlie-tca>  * micahg to find what Ubuntu-desktop does with java in restricted-extras - Email sent
<micahg> o/
<charlie-tca> micahg: any response?
<micahg> yeah, chatted with mvo, he's ok with moving it somewhere else, but the issue is space, I'm going to start a discussion on the desktop ML
<micahg> it's already on the DVD
<charlie-tca> But they removed it from the cd?
<micahg> never was on the CD
<charlie-tca> oh
<charlie-tca> okay
<charlie-tca> Thanks for following up on it
<charlie-tca>  * GridCube to put together the "TOP 10" for Xubuntu
<charlie-tca> GridCube: any update ?
<GridCube> :) I just finished my exams this week, im starting that up
<GridCube> will take some time tho
<GridCube> ..
<charlie-tca> Thank you
<charlie-tca>  * start ML discussion on panels, reviews of current panels, launchers on panels, etc - Done
<charlie-tca> I did this with mixed results
<charlie-tca> ochosi: back yet?
<charlie-tca> we got a lot of responses, most of which boil down to anything is fine, as long as it looks good and is changeable
<GridCube> I think that most people just change it so they cant say what it looked on first install
<charlie-tca> Well, that and the ones that don't are happy
<charlie-tca>  * madnick to look into plymouth theme, with help from knome and ochosi for animations - Done
<madnick> o/
<charlie-tca> madnick: go ahead
<madnick> I've been working all week with this and is close to done, and me and knome agree'd on some changes today
<madnick> And I have been testing on ATI, Nvdia and no drivers, and it seems good
<madnick> the stuff is here: http://www.madnick.se/~madnick/xubuntu for those interested in how it looks, opinions is nice
<madnick> ..
<charlie-tca> Great!
<charlie-tca> Many thanks for taking that on and working it.
<madnick> :)
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: looks like we will have the plymouth splash working for us in Oneiric!
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] === Team updates ===
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] ==== Packaging & Development ====
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: Are you here?
<charlie-tca> If not, micahg?
<micahg> so, we're back under 700MB on the CDs again
<micahg> the messaging indicator has returned in oneiric
<charlie-tca> Yay!
<micahg> still waiting on the desktop team for the new transmission and removal of libnotify1 from the CD (blocked on MIRs)
<charlie-tca> Are we reverting evince?
<micahg> any seed changes need to be done tonight for alpha3, otherwise, it'll wait until thursday
<micahg> I reverted to evince in the seeds, but didn't bother doing an upload for it
<micahg> so, epdfview is gone 
<charlie-tca> okay, and pastebinit ?
<micahg> oh, and we now ship a microblogging client (pidgin-microblog)
<micahg> haven't added pastebinit yet, do we want that for alpha3?
<charlie-tca> It can be done after alpha3, I just didn't want to forget it
<charlie-tca> Anything we need a heads on for feature freeze exceptions?
<micahg> are we making our own greeter or using the GTK greeter that lightdm provides?
<charlie-tca> um, great question
<charlie-tca> ochosi or knome got anything on that?
<micahg> I'm not aware of anything else that will need an FFe
<micahg> ochosi mentioned a new version of gmusicbrowser possibly
<charlie-tca> I don't mind either way, but I would like lightdm to keep our usernames 
<knome> hmm?
<knome> about what?
<charlie-tca> Do we have anyone working on a lightdm theme?
<charlie-tca> or shall we keep the provided greeter?
<knome> not yet at least
<GridCube> if we have a plymouth theme we need a greeter too, just saying
<madnick> i can look into that too, if you like
<charlie-tca> well, it would be nice, but the one we are using isn't bad
<charlie-tca> if you don't mind pink
<micahg> we can customize a little once the config file is available (like no guest session)
<charlie-tca> madnick: please do, if you have time
<madnick> time is all i got :P
<charlie-tca> Yeah, the guest session fails for Xubuntu
<micahg> ..
<charlie-tca> Thank you, micahg 
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] madnick to look into building a lightdm greeter
<charlie-tca> Any questions for packaging and development?
<GridCube> no
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] ==== Bug Triage & Testing ====
<charlie-tca> We should be seeing more bug reports against oneiric
<charlie-tca> Testing has had issues, mostly with no images
<charlie-tca> We now have a live session, but you must restart and install from the cd menu
<Unit193> As there haven't been working ones this week, I haven't tested all that much
<charlie-tca> Alpha3 candidates will be tested this week, starting Tuesday
<charlie-tca> Any questions/comments for Testing and Bugs?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] ==== Website & Marketing ====
<pleia2> o/
<charlie-tca> pleia2: go ahead, please
<pleia2> beardygnome wrote another awesome review which I replied to here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2011-July/007898.html
<pleia2> fixed most things, but I asked some questions there, particularly about documentation and translations stuff I don't understand (so can't fix on the site)
<charlie-tca> I thought I answered those, maybe it was only in my mind :(
<pleia2> charlie-tca: that's was the first review :)
<pleia2> this is the second review!
<charlie-tca> Reviews are hard to keep up with, I guess
<pleia2> no need to reply now, just wanted to mention that it's hanging out there
<charlie-tca> I will go find it and send out some responses, even if they are wrong
<pleia2> thank you
<pleia2> knome: any updates on wordpress theme?
<pleia2> there is also an outstanding bug that the site isn't translatable, if someone familiar with doing translations and wordpress is around I'd be interested in talking to them about how to handle the site moving forward
<pleia2> (or if anyone knows someone)
<pleia2> ..
<charlie-tca> Hopefully, it will be easier to translate than drupal
<charlie-tca> Thank you very much, pleia2 
<charlie-tca> Any questions for website?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] ==== Artwork ====
<charlie-tca> ochosi is on holiday.
<charlie-tca> We covered the plymouth and lightdm parts
<charlie-tca> anything else for artwork?
<GridCube> O/
<charlie-tca> go ahead, GridCube 
<GridCube> bug 800918
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 800918 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Some wallpaper/backdrops ideas" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/800918
<GridCube> XD im still bothering people whit this
<charlie-tca> Always good to stay on top of things you want
<madnick> o/
<charlie-tca> We might have to get micahg and mr_pouit on that soon
<charlie-tca> madnick: go ahead
<GridCube> ok :) thanks
<madnick> what "mode" are we using for lightdm? webkit? or like gtk?
<micahg> madnick: I'd say GTK
<madnick> micahg: thanks
<madnick> ..
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] === Announcements ===
<charlie-tca>  * The next meeting will be on Monday, 2011-08-08 at 19:00 UTC
<charlie-tca>  * Important dates coming up:
<charlie-tca>   * 11.10 Alpha 3: August 4, 2011
<charlie-tca>    * soft freeze will be August 1 at 1200 UTC
<charlie-tca>   * 11.10 FeatureFreeze : August 11, 2011
<charlie-tca>   * 11.10 Release Date: October 13, 2011
<charlie-tca>   * UDS-P will be in Orlando, Florida the week of October 31 - Nov 4. Please apply for sponsorship by August 24.
<charlie-tca>   * UDS-P information at http://ubuntu-news.org/2011/07/15/ubuntu-developer-summit-sponsorship-now-open-2/
<charlie-tca> Did I miss anything?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] === Any Other Business ===
<micahg> o/
<GridCube> o/
<charlie-tca> o/
<charlie-tca> Go ahead, micahg 
<micahg> we should try to get the defaults down this week so we can test drive them right after alpha3 (like next Monday maybe we can vote/decide/draw straws)
<micahg> ..
<charlie-tca> sure thing
<charlie-tca> I would guess the biggest one is whether to replace gimp. 
 * astraljava can assist on that, if needed
<charlie-tca> GridCube: go ahead
<GridCube> thats what i wanted to talk about, replacing gimp.
<charlie-tca> sure
<GridCube> i think the best idea yet is getting a superior replacement for ristretto
<GridCube> making gimp superflous
<charlie-tca> Thank you for the comparison chart
<charlie-tca> You mean something for viewing, or something like shotwell or gthumb?
<GridCube> I'm thinking on dividing it now, one for viewers whit edition capabilities
<GridCube> i guess shotwell and gthum 
<GridCube> kind of programs should be the ones considered
<GridCube> whit media sharing capabilities would made them a huge plus
<GridCube> then having gimp, or not, wont matter anymore
<charlie-tca> I can agree with that. To better serve the current technology of today, we really should have something capable of photo viewing, downloading, and editing
<charlie-tca> but I still like gimp
<GridCube> sure, but its for a single file working
<charlie-tca> any comments on adding a photo editor?
<beardygnome> i like gimp too, but it think it is too much for the default
<charlie-tca> which one is better, gthumb or shotwell?
<GridCube> will do a comparison chart for them
<charlie-tca> or something else? what do you people with cameras use?
<charlie-tca> Thanks, GridCube 
<beardygnome> shotwell is more of a photo library like picasa than a photo viewer/editor
<GridCube> we need to come whit some "what do we want it to do" comparison points
<GridCube> yes i think that too
<beardygnome> so i'd say gthumb
 * astraljava always loved gthumb
<charlie-tca> Do we need a comparison chart then?
<beardygnome> but i use gpicview personally
<charlie-tca> oh
<GridCube> i do use gpicview
<GridCube> i would rather see it installed instead of ristretto, at least,
<charlie-tca> micahg: will we need a freeze exception to change seeds for this?
<beardygnome> GridCube: i remove ristretto as son as install xubuntu :-)
<astraljava> Didn't he say he had to leave?
<charlie-tca> yes, but I was hoping 
<astraljava> But I would think not, feature freeze is still a couple of weeks from now.
<charlie-tca> It is the week after alpha3
<astraljava> Oh, so 1Â½ weeks from now?
<charlie-tca> GridCube: I think we can skip the comparison. I will discuss this with mr_pouit and micahg directly
<charlie-tca> astraljava: yes
<GridCube> ok
<GridCube> I propose changing ristretto for gpicview should do it for now
<charlie-tca> Any negative votes on gpicview?
<astraljava> How big dependency-line does it have?
<charlie-tca> about 10
<astraljava> Oh, not that big. Should fall within already-provided category.
<charlie-tca> we have them already
<astraljava> Only 6, cool.
<charlie-tca> Does gpicview allow cropping and resizing photos?
<beardygnome> no, it's just a viewer
<GridCube> just rotates them
<beardygnome> better than ristretto, imo
 * charlie-tca thinks of the possiblity of keeping gimp and having gpicview
<charlie-tca> Okay, I will get with the devs on it then
<charlie-tca> anything else?
<GridCube> not from me :) Just thanks again to all of you for making xubuntu
<astraljava> Sorry, still on the photo issue;
<charlie-tca> I have been working to revise the Xubuntu Strategy Document. It does a poor job of getting a new leader chosen.
<astraljava> gpicview + gimp exceeds 5M, while gthumb is less than 1M (whatever size apt-cache gives)
<charlie-tca> but we have room
<astraljava> Oh, okay. Carry on, then. :D
<astraljava> ..
<charlie-tca> If the only reason to replace gimp is cd space, we have no issue
<charlie-tca> I have sent emails out to both mailing lists requesting comments on my proposed change to the Strategy Document. 
<GridCube> :) im trying gthumb now and it can do everything needed on the chart, rotates, crops, changes formats etc...
<charlie-tca> It gives clear guidance on how the next project leader will be selected.
<GridCube> I've read them, still i do not understand them :(
<charlie-tca> I am giving a two week comment period for it. I will publish the email again in one week
<charlie-tca> GridCube: the changes I propose?
<GridCube> the whole thing, its too technical and legalical
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> we have to keep it that way to cover the legal end of things
<GridCube> oh the new one is easier to read
<GridCube> :D good luck whit that
<charlie-tca> basically, I am proposing that the launchpad team Xubuntu Users will elect the Project Lead by a simple vote
<charlie-tca> Majority of votes will win, second highest vote count will be interim lead if needed
<charlie-tca> Only those people belonging to Xubuntu Users will be allowed to vote for the Project Lead
<GridCube> I see
<GridCube> :) thanks for clearing that 
<charlie-tca> Please send you comments by reply to the mailing lists, either for or against the change
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: that's a change to the current process, right?
<charlie-tca> yes
<charlie-tca> current process is kind of sketchy.
<charlie-tca> Current process:
<charlie-tca> The Xubuntu project lead serves a term of three releases after which he
<charlie-tca> or she must seek reconfirmation from the Xubuntu community via a public
<charlie-tca> meeting. If consesus is unable to be found, the matter is referred to
<charlie-tca> the Ubuntu Community Council.
<charlie-tca> I think that leaves it pretty much difficult to follow
<charlie-tca> How did that project lead get there in the first place?
<charlie-tca> Any questions?
<charlie-tca> GridCube: Are we wanting to compare gthumb and gpicview?
<GridCube> If you wish, its pretty straight foward, gpicview can do 6 things, gthumb sevel dozens
<beardygnome> i think that's like comparing apples and oranges....
<beardygnome> gpicview is just a viewer
<GridCube> those 6 things gpicview does are pretty useful tho, it rotates images, and moves trough a directory, and saves formats you wish
<beardygnome> i think we should compare gpicview with ristretto
<charlie-tca> okay, lets do it the comparison chart then
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] GridCube to do comparison chart for gpicview, ristretto, gthumb
<GridCube> :D will do it now
<charlie-tca> Anything else to discuss?
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for attending this meeting. 
<GridCube> beardygnome, said something about oranges an apples, we should see about that :P
<charlie-tca> We need participants to have a successful Xubuntu Operating System!
<charlie-tca> I tried comparing apples and oranges. Apples won here
<charlie-tca> I much prefer them over oranges
<GridCube> indeed, you cant make and orange pie, it just doesnt work
<charlie-tca> apples can be eaten after washing, oranges can not
<charlie-tca> sorry, beardygnome 
 * charlie-tca just had to say it
<charlie-tca> anything else?
<knome> why can't you wash oranges and then eat them?
<charlie-tca> the skin is kind of bitter
<knome> but it's edible
<charlie-tca> depends on what you are used to, I guess
<astraljava> Sure, but it's used as a flavor in some dishes. :)
<knome> it is edible in theory at least
<charlie-tca> I have used it in cooking, but not raw
<beardygnome> better in marmalade than on its own...
<knome> i prefer apples anyway
 * astraljava too
<charlie-tca> beardygnome: apples win
<knome> some people think that even apples can't be eaten with the skin
<charlie-tca> true, when I lived in Korea, we peeled everything
<charlie-tca> Can we close this meeting now?
<astraljava> ..
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<charlie-tca> not to cut anyone off, but... 
<knome> i was referring to the global, not the we're-in-korea-and-we-might-die-eating-the-apple-peel effect
<charlie-tca> oh, well, yeah, that too
<charlie-tca> You want that included in the minutes?
<GridCube> hahaha
<knome> if you please ;)
<charlie-tca> I can do that
<knome> thanks, much appreciated
<charlie-tca> no problem. 
<knome> i think that might be one of the best of my contributions to that meeting
<charlie-tca> I didn't mean to cut you off, anyway
<knome> or any other meeting too
<charlie-tca> Yes, I can see that being important
<astraljava> It's really funny when you think about it. You really can't compare Apple(s) with Orange(s). The other is a hardware/software manufacturer, the other being an ISP.
<astraljava> And with that, I leave you baffled, completely mindblown. G'night!
<knome> night astraljava 
<charlie-tca> oh, I forgot. We need a news bulletin for alpha3
<charlie-tca> plantoschka: can you?
<Unit193> We going to have "And apples are better than oranges" in the meeting minutes? :P
<Unit193> One after meeting question: Are we going to set a last join time to Xubuntu-Users where you will take votes? I.E. If I join the week of/day before voting, does it still count?
<madnick> lightdm looks neat, looking at lightdm-gtk-greeter.c
<charlie-tca> Unit193: yes, we do not delete any comments from the logs
<charlie-tca> Unit193: yes, it still counts, since there is no specific time frame required
<micahg> charlie-tca: re FFe> eh, well, I'd venture to say no, but I'd probably ask anyways
<charlie-tca> Thank you, micahg 
<charlie-tca> If possible, madnick, we should not have to modify the actual files, but there should be a configuration file we can change to point at our own version of the greeter. 
<madnick> oh okay
<charlie-tca> We are using lightdm-greeter-gtk now, AFAIK
<charlie-tca> That should be a config file, but I am not sure
<charlie-tca> madnick: at the same time, they did just make some changes to lightdm, and the old config got thrown out
<madnick> but, are the devs gonna do something to lightdm-greeter-gtk?
<madnick> ah
<charlie-tca> I don't know now. They changed the files this last week
<micahg> we would just seed our greeter instead of the one provided by lightdm
<micahg> actually, it's lightdm-gtk-greeter now
<charlie-tca> So we should have maybe lightdm-xubuntu-greeter?
<micahg> if we want to make one
<charlie-tca> madnick: making sense?
<madnick> Yes, but it might not be needed, the greeter.ui seems fairly costumizable
<charlie-tca> it is. We just want to make sure we don't modify the actual application, just the added greeter
<madnick> yeah
<madnick> okay, so this is a later issue then so i just keep testing the splash, charlie-tca have you tried it anymore?
<charlie-tca> No, I don't know what to do to make it work
<charlie-tca> I get blank screens here, except on shutdown
<madnick> Just with my theme?
<charlie-tca> no, with the original theme and yours
<charlie-tca> I get the same no matter what I try
<madnick> i had that issue here, when i was installing "manually", instead of running --install
<madnick> It may infact have been a coincident, it could've been something else I did in that process
<charlie-tca> Yeah, I can't get a splash before I try anything
<madnick> I've got it tested on alot of machines, but I still have no machine with cryptsetup, I tried in a VM, but I got that video error, i removed vga= and still got "incompatible license"
<charlie-tca> VM can't use plymouth properly. That is a fault of the VM itself
<charlie-tca> Since most Virtual Machines do not use the hardware video card, they don't use the frame buffer properly
<madnick> i see
<madnick> I wonder what the status quo of hardware virtualization is, i think soon these stuff should be possible, sure would make life easier 
<Unit193> The only hardware I can test it on has 8xx chipset video card :/
<madnick> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-23
<elfy> astraljava: do we have an alpha3 tomorrow - does it need long testing ?
<elfy> and hi :)
<ochosi> knome, mr_pouit: let me add this to the "do away with xscreensaver, instead just use a lock-thingy", this is how far lightdm is in that respect: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-lock-screen
<ochosi> i.e. not very far. i've been looking out for alternatives, and to be honest, none of them is working extra-smooth or great-looking
<ochosi> would be great if some of you could take a look at this issue as i'll be away from tomorrow evening
<pleia2> is keeping xscreensaver and just defaulting to blank xscreensaver+screen lock an option?
<ochosi> sure
<ochosi> it's just not a huge step forward apart from a better default setting (no screensaver)
<pleia2> I think that may be as close as we can get until lightdm gets sorted
<ochosi> probably
<ochosi> i mean just because i wasn't happy with the screen-lockers around doesn't mean someone else doesn't find them more appealing than xscreensaver
<ochosi> e.g. xlockmore is far more configurable, we could at least set a xubuntu-logo somewhere etc
<pleia2> I am not sure how something can be more ugly than xscreensaver
<pleia2> :)
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> how true
<pleia2> do you have a list of lockers to try out?
<ochosi> i do, but i'm not sure it's "complete" or anything
<pleia2> that's ok, I'd like to give a few a try to see
<ochosi> xlockmore, xlockmore-gl, xtrlock, i3lock
<pleia2> ty
<ochosi> then there's also slock, but it doesn't seem to be packaged
<ochosi> oh, and let's not forget gnome-screensaver :D
<ochosi> which reminds me, if you find anything useful there, you can also reply to this guy: http://askubuntu.com/questions/141532/recommendation-about-screen-lock-application-in-xubuntu
<pleia2> does ubuntu ship with gnome-screensaver these days?
<ochosi> i'd assume so
<ochosi> at least that's what the blueprint above suggests
<pleia2> hm, it can recommend on xfce4-power-manager
<ochosi> hm?
<pleia2> gnome-screensaver
<pleia2> was just looking at the dependencies
<ochosi> oh right
<ochosi> gnome-desktop3-data ;)
<ochosi> and gnome-settings-daemon
<pleia2> yeah :\
<ochosi> so yeah, i guess i should've added i was mostly kidding mentioning that one :)
<pleia2> the :D tipped me off, but I was curious :)
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> thing is that i _could_ send an email to robert ancell, but otoh i won't be around to read it when he replies
<ochosi> so it'd be better if someone else quickly asked him about the chances of lightdm managing the lockscreen in 12.10
<ochosi> (also: we _have_ to sort out our greeter first. if we're stuck with the gtk-greeter, then using lightdm as screenlocker most likely isn't an option)
<pleia2> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-quantal-desktop-greeter-lockscreen seems to have a target
<ochosi> yeah true, but the essential lock-part is completely on TODO
<ochosi> (i mean there's still one month to FF, but hmmm...)
 * pleia2 nods
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-24
<ochosi> anyhoo, time to go to bed
<ochosi> night pleia2 !
<pleia2> good night :)
<Unit193> Good night.
<micahg> hrm, I seem to have forgotten to look into paring down the ISOs...
<micahg> wow, we're at 800MB now :(
<micahg> Qt got pulled into the image, I've blacklisted the package that was pulling it in (ubuntu-sso-client-qt), so we have no Ubuntu SSO client anymore as the GTK version is gone
<knome> micahg, yay, Qt ;)
<Unit193> Hey! Now VLC would barely add anything. ;)
<knome> uaaargh
<mr_pouit> ochosi: I played with that yesterday, you can lock the screen with dbus-send (if we want to modify xflock4/xfpm/xfce4-panel for that it's easy), but it shows the greeter. There are functions to know whether the session has been locked to display it in a special way in the greeter, but it needs code.
<mr_pouit> (the code is already in lightdm since 1.1.3)
<mr_pouit> it's not worse than xscreensaver tbh
<ochosi> ok
<ochosi> mr_pouit: the main question is who will write that code
<ochosi> but yeah, i would be all for that....
<mr_pouit> I could write that for gtk-greeter maybe
<ochosi> sounds like one reason to improve gtk-greeter
<mr_pouit> It's probably already written for unity-greeter though (or is the plan to switch to gsd-free unity-greeter dead?)
<mr_pouit> micahg: thanks, it seems libavcodec made a come back (something's pulling gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg)
<ochosi> mr_pouit: that depends on madnick returning i guess (or someone else picking that up)
<ochosi> btw, quick info: robert ancell said they already whitelist specific g-s-d plugins, so if we make that list configurable, they'd accept the patch
<ochosi> which would mean we could ship an empty white list and get rid of g-s-d that way
<mr_pouit> [Xfce4-commits] <xfce4-panel:master> Clock: Add calendar popup to clock plugin (bug #9034).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 9034 in linux-source-2.6.15 (Ubuntu) "[prism54 driver] Can't connect to AP on channel 13" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/9034
<mr_pouit> wooo
<ochosi> wait, so we can scrap the datetime plugin?
<ochosi> iirc clock is builtin, right?
<mr_pouit> ochosi: yep (though it's only in master right now)
<mr_pouit> and I think it also uses the ominous frame :P
<mr_pouit> s/ominous/not-greybird-friendly/
<ochosi> oooh no...
<ochosi> well i can now make the calendar bright, what do i care :)
<mr_pouit> haha
<ochosi> i guess a bugreport is in order
<ochosi> but first breakfast
<micahg> mr_pouit: oh, that's webkit, I can fix
<micahg> mr_pouit: I think I might just have to blacklist it for alpha3, although, I think that we're allowed to ship it, just not press it on images
<knome> astraljava, you going to send some call for testing mails for a3?
<pleia2> no a3 images yet?
<knome> pleia2, #ubuntu-release ;)
 * pleia2 joins
<knome> i mean, i don't know if there's something special, but that's the place to ask
 * knome has a headache
<pleia2> aw
<knome> yeah, that sucks so big time
<micahg> idk, there were some images for other flavors, but there have been a few rebuilds already
 * micahg sees nothing for xubuntu yet
<knome> gnnaaah
<knome> i just noticed it's again testing day and my head hurts :(
<micahg> ah, it's missing in the rebuild commands, /me pokes
<pleia2> thanks micahg 
<knome> ta micahg 
<micahg> we might end up 50MB over for alpha3 though, idk if my webkit upload will get in
<knome> over in a3 isn't bad, over in final is different ;)
<knome> maybe try not to be oversized with betas
<micahg> ah, I can blacklist -ffmpeg, let me do that so we catch it on the respins
<micahg> ok, so we should be back to ~740MB or less hopefully with Qt and ffmeg gone
<micahg> *ffmpeg
<knome>  :)
<micahg> still not sure what else we can drop, but we'll see later
<knome> yeah, maybe schedule some time togehter
<knome> together too
<micahg> gimp needs webkit-gtk2 for the help browser which I guess is important
<knome> but afk now, try to get my head in shape
<knome> ->
<genii-around> Heh. When I parted ~13 hours ago: "wow we're at 800MB now"  first line on join: "... so we should be back to ~740MB or less hopefully ..."
<pleia2> micahg is a superhero :)
 * micahg ducks into a phone booth
<genii-around> 60MB is a pretty impressive cut, for sure!
<micahg> well, the increase was accidental, it was a matter of finding it and getting rid of it
<micahg> in both cases, I just ended up blacklisting the binaries that were pulling in whole trees of stuff we don't want
<micahg> hrm, maybe not, -bad codes are pulling in a whole audio stack on the live image...not sure where we'll end up, but images should be coming in a few hours
<micahg> s/codes/codecs/
<knome> good
<pleia2> 12:12:39 < skaet> micahg, ^ Xubuntu alternates available to try now.
<pleia2> heh, I started the zsync and then went to work on other stuff and am all "why is my internet connection so slow?"
<pleia2> my brain is awesome
<Unit193> Internet doesn't really slow down, it's the computer. :(
<pleia2> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+bug/1028611
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1028611 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Manually select "Xubuntu desktop" on alpha3 testing alternate" [Undecided,New]
<pleia2> fail :(
 * pleia2 lets it finish installing
<pleia2> and when I try with a VM it seems to work, except bug 1016925 has returned
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1016925 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "12.10 Alternate installer fails with libavformat53 unmet dependencies" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1016925
<pleia2> sorry for breaking all the things
<micahg> pleia2: hrm, that should be fixed...are you sure you have the latest image?
<pleia2> 4b645e2a7cb984234819fc398779f67c
<pleia2> looks to be the most current one
<pleia2> I think my first bug may be unetbootin related
<micahg> hrm
<micahg> desktop image coming soon
<micahg> pleia2: thanks, I blacklisted the wrong binary, should be fixed on the next respin
<micahg> let's see if anything else needs fixing
<pleia2> great :)
<micahg> hrm, blacklist isn't working, Qt is still there
<Unit193> pleia2: You can resync. :D
<Unit193> Seems it's pointless to resync as there's another image that'll come up.
<pleia2> I think the desktop ones are ready, I'll resync alt when the new one comes
<Unit193> http://pad.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-release
<pleia2> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/7640334336
<pleia2> pins!
<GridCube> oooo they be nice
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-25
<astraljava> knome: email sent
<astraljava> Ooh... we're overweight.
<Unit193> Just now found out?  And we're down some.
<astraljava> I've been away.
<astraljava> Down some doesn't help when the tracker links to 24th's image.
<astraljava> ...which is 800MB.
<astraljava> Is there a difference between a CD iso and a DVD iso? Can the testers be advised to use blank DVDs for that 800MB image?
<elfy> crap - have I got the wrong ones ?
<astraljava> elfy: Can't really answer that question. What did you use?
<elfy> the tracker 
<elfy> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily-live/20120724/quantal-desktop-amd64.iso for instance
<elfy> 800Mb the 64 bit 
<elfy> 813 I mean
<elfy> is there any point in me testing these?
<astraljava> Oh, yes. That's the correct date according to the tracker.
<astraljava> I mentioned 800MB just as a rough guide towards the magnitude we're talking.
<elfy> k - cool 
<elfy> I'll get them tested today 
<ochosi> hey guys
<ochosi> and hey gals
<mr_pouit> hey you
<ochosi> mr_pouit: it's my last day of work before the holidays, yay! :)
<mr_pouit> he
<ochosi> how's the diss goin?
<mr_pouit> i've to write introduction + conclusion + finish the chapter about performances and I'm done (:
<ochosi> congrats! that sounds great
<ochosi> i'd love to be that far with mine...
<mr_pouit> hihi
<mr_pouit> you've one more year anyway :P
<mr_pouit> (when is the next parole release!!!)
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> well for the next parole release, i basically want to properly hide the mouse-cursor
<ochosi> other than that, sean has a few issues he's working on (mostly audio-cd troubles)
<ochosi> then it's release-time :)
<ochosi> can you push it through debian to xubuntu?
<ochosi> (i mean now that you're practically done with the diss... ;))
<mr_pouit> testing is frozen (maybe it could be uploaded to experimental)
<ochosi> and yes, i'm aware of ubuntu's FF date and i also talked about it with sean (it also affects catfish)
<mr_pouit> so anyway, it can be uploaded to ubuntu directly
<ochosi> yeah
<malv> monthly reminder of important unfixed bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+3.0/+bug/1001936
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1001936 in gtk+3.0 (Ubuntu) "GTK3 Grab/Move Triggered on Mouse Click" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<malv> oh wait, i think it may have been fixed =_
<malv> =)
<malv> https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8949 now we just need the fix downstream
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 8949 in General "Window moves around widely if you click a dragable bar, move the window and click somewhere else in the window" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<elfy> nice -  that one is a bit freaky the first time you get it :)
<malv> could one of the devs please bring the patch downstream? you will save my sanity
<knome> mr_pouit, micahg ^ ?
<malv> Link to xfwm4 4.10 patch  http://git.xfce.org/xfce/xfwm4/commit/?h=xfce-4.10&id=099614e3f045e06db7ab509e174510ea74857adb
<bluesabre> knome: I kinda forgot about this.  Still interested in a lightdm screen lock settings tool?
<knome> bluesabre, i think... you should talk with olbi 
<knome> eh
<knome> ochosi, 
<knome> anyway
<knome> i'm off
<knome> see you
<olbi> what about me? :)
<astraljava> Maybe you'd need to be off, too. I dunno. We never know what he means.
<ochosi> olbi: i think he meant me and wrongfully pinged you ;)
<olbi> oh, ok :D
<micahg> hrm, seems like my changes didn't take at all :(
<bluesabre> ochosi: Any idea on whether I still need to make a lightdm lockscreen preferences app?
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'm not sure i was ever aware of that project tbh :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: but in general i'd say, if we even get a proper lockscreen (without prefs) i'm more than happy
<bluesabre> It was mentioned sometime last week
<ochosi> right
<bluesabre> So are we shooting for getting rid of xscreensaver, or just not using its lockscreen?
<ochosi> well up to now the whole lightdm greeter thing was in madnick's hands...
<ochosi> yeah, we get rid of xscreensaver and replace it with a lightdm-lockscreen
<ochosi> screensavers are _so_ last millenium
<bluesabre> I can create a control panel app for it if we get anywhere on that
<ochosi> sounds great!
<ochosi> still, i think that if madnick doesn't return soon and full of energy, the whole lightdm project should be re-assigned to someone else
<ochosi> and if we don't find anyone, we have to continue with the gtk-greeter
<micahg> well, why can't we use the same facility Ubuntu is for locking?
<ochosi> micahg: gnome-settings-daemon dependency?
<ochosi> the unity-greeter has that dependency
<ochosi> and that was madnick's assignment, to fork it, patch it out and then ship it as xubuntu-greeter
<ochosi> (ideally replace g-s-d with xfsettingsd)
<pleia2> micahg: given your comment above, is that re: alts? I see there isn't a new one since the last I downloaded
<micahg> yeah
<pleia2> ok, I'll do some tests of the desktops today then :)
<pleia2> I do hope they make enough progress to get rid of the alts this release (I see kubuntu didn't spin any up for the alpha3 in anticipation of them being dropped)
<pleia2> we need some release notes, what changed since a2?
<ochosi> bye everyone! ->
 * pleia2 hugs ochosi 
<pleia2> enjoy!
<micahg> hrm, so a3 alternates look like they may not happen, is the desktop image ok?
<micahg> err...the xubuntu alternate
<pleia2> I'll download desktop now and give it a try
<micahg> I'm basically out of ideas on how to fix this
<micahg> whenever webkit finishes building, we can copy it over and the libavcodec issue will be fixed, but that will be tomorrow sometime if we wait for all archs
<GridCube> cant we ask for a fair time, like 12 hours to do the a3 tests?
<GridCube> my internet now sucks but later ill be able to download and do vbox tests :/
<micahg> ask for what? the builds are just slwo
<GridCube> i mean for more time to do the tests
<micahg> I can probably get one last set of images spun, but they're all or nothing (or we can grab a daily and validate it after and call it a3)
<micahg> webkit takes 1.15 days on arm* and the armel build restarted 3 hours ago
<GridCube> we do tests against that build?
<micahg> which build...
<GridCube> nothing, im confused now, and im making things worse, dont take me into  consideration please
<pleia2> 64-bit desktop seems ok
<Unit193> So there was one that said some he knew were interested in testing and having a PPC version, that just fall away?
<pleia2> I think just lubuntu is doing ppc
<pleia2> if someone could get a team of dedicated PPC testers it would be cool to do one, but we're barely making it with the images we already have :)
<Unit193> Yes that's correct, but not really what I was looking for...
<pleia2> well, I don't know that we ever had enough volunteers to seriously consider it (let alone let it "fall away")
<Unit193> I was waiting for the respin, but looks like there will be no respin...
<pleia2> of the alt?
<Unit193> Well, generally 32bit ones.
<pleia2> I think the desktop ones are all done
<Unit193> I'll do a 32 desktop then.
 * pleia2 too
<Unit193> Could do an alternate as well, but that'd kill my precise > quantal surviver. :(
<Unit193> survivor
<pleia2> I think the alts are a little broken
<Unit193> We'll findout I suppose, thanks.  Maybe-ubiquity is all black though.
<pleia2> yeah, I included that in my list-o-bugs
<GridCube> so, do i download the current image or i have to wait?
<pleia2> we're testing the desktops now
<skaet> astraljava, knome - is someone able to look into https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-meta/+bug/1029032 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1029032 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu Quantal) "Xubuntu 64 (Quantal) alternate install failed: libavformat53 unmet dependencies" [Critical,Triaged]
<Unit193> Bug #1010487 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1010487 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu - black windows" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1010487
<skaet> let me know if there's a fix possible, and you want a respin. 
<pleia2> skaet: 09:03:33 < micahg> whenever webkit finishes building, we can copy it over and the libavcodec issue will be fixed, but that will be tomorrow sometime if we wait for all archs
<pleia2> I think that's what he was talking about
<micahg> we might be able to respin in about 5 hours, will need to discuss with infinity
<GridCube> so desktop then :) amd64 or i386?
<pleia2> GridCube: both! :)
<GridCube> :P will try
<micahg> I won't have the desktops respun later as they're not affected by the libav issue
 * pleia2 nods
<skaet> micahg,  should I associate this alternate bug with your webkit respins that are on the pad?  or is there something else in addition going on there?
<Unit193> pleia2: You're doing entire?
<pleia2> Unit193: I did a live for now, my lunch break is ending and I actually have to get back to my for real work :)
<micahg> skaet: yeah, that should solve that meta bug
<micahg> err...alternate bug
<skaet> micahg,  :)   will do.
<Unit193> Makes it easy for me, though I think desktop/alongside install is funky.
<micahg> skaet: thanks
<pleia2> knome: release notes!
<skaet> Unit193, have added a note in the known issues in the technote about the bug.
<Unit193> Hmmm? Alright, I suppose.
<skaet> Thanks pleia2.  :)   was just about to ask about it. 
 * skaet figured there was a nice workaround, so, useful to folks.
<skaet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/TechnicalOverview/Alpha3
<skaet> Unit193,  feel free to edit/delete if you disagree.
<Unit193> pleia2: Yep, it is.
<GridCube> o: qa tracker now has a "bugs to look for" part :D How awesome is that?!
<pleia2> yeah, I love it :)
<GridCube> :D
<Unit193> Yeah, removing jockey was a dumb idea. :/
<Unit193> Man, had to install jockey-common as -gtk is a package for "Software Sources" and useless....
<micahg> there should be an ubuntu-drivers interface or something now
<micahg> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-July/035553.html
<Unit193> Unless there's another one that I don't know of, it was moved to software sources...
<micahg> yeah, is it broke?
<Unit193> Well, it didn't install the driver, and progrss sat at what I'd guess to be about 100 than went back to 50 and stalled.
<micahg> sounds like a bug to file :)
<Unit193> It's not really a better interface for me at all, but did get me to learn how to install them commandline style. :D
<micahg> if there are deficiencies in the interface, please file bugs, the idea was to make things easier
<Unit193> Unfortunately, best I can say right this second is "It didn't work for me", though I did notice a few other things I may be able to.
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-26
<micahg> :(, looks like we don't really have hope for a respin until tomorrow, armhf won't be ready  for another 12 hours
<micahg> if that
<micahg> and I have to tie up an arm builder for an extra day to get that respin
 * pleia2 does some more tests
<pleia2> this one is :( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1027461
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1027461 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu, installer locked in auto resize" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<micahg> hrm, so no desktop images either :(
 * micahg knows nothing about ubiquity
<pleia2> that one just kills it for resizing, other installs work ok
<micahg> ah, release notable then I guess
<Unit193> Manual partitioning.
<Unit193> +work?
<pleia2> didn't try manual
<pleia2> I'll give it a go, then I need to get back to work on other things :)
<pleia2> it seems alright with manual partitioning, even resizing partitions in that screen
<pleia2> ah well I've gone this far, might as well finish the test
<knome> i don't think there's much to tell on the release notes. apart from the bugs you've mentioned. :)
<pleia2> knome!
<knome> pleia2!
<pleia2> hello :)
<knome> morning
<pleia2> should we update the slideshow?
<knome> yes, but not now ;)
<pleia2> ok
<pleia2> the thunderbird screen shows us being all "yay 12.04"
<knome> that's probably an item in the doc blueprint
<pleia2> ok
<knome> or appearance
<pleia2> I will look around
<knome> i can dig it up
<knome>  [xubuntu-team] Review installation slideshow after docs rewrite is done: BLOCKED
<knome> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-q-xubuntu-refresh-offline-documentation
<pleia2> oh goodness, that
<pleia2> I made progress while I was on the airplane
<knome> oohh
<knome> in what sense? ;)
<pleia2> http://dagobah.princessleia.com/Xubuntu/12.10
<pleia2> all the grey links are not existing pages
<knome> mm-hmm
<pleia2> so this is just a copy of what is in the docs index now, I think people can start there
<knome> looks good though
<knome> maybe create that organize-yourself page
<knome> i'll take a shower, brb
<Unit193> Monthly shower.
<pleia2> the polar bears don't mind smelly knome 
<pleia2> I'll draft up the alpha3 post for tomorrow on wordpress, knome you wanna update the wiki? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/TechnicalOverview/Alpha3
<knome> pleia2, i suppose i don't know what to update :|
<pleia2> I think all we have to put is "known issues"
<knome> yup
<knome> but i don't know what those are ;)
<knome> maybe the ones you mentioned
<pleia2> ah yes, I'm doing blog post now and will include them
<knome> ok
<knome> i can update the wiki based on those
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> what are the bug #s again?
<knome> oh!
<knome> the ISO is oversized.
<pleia2> 1027461 is the big bad one
<pleia2> hoping the alt is fixed with the respin tomorrow
<pleia2> oops, need to do cat stuff, brb
<Unit193> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/TechnicalOverview/Alpha3#Xubuntu-1
<knome> updated with that big bad one and a mention of being oversized
<knome> mr_pouit, have we uploaded big appearance changes between a2 and a3?
<pleia2> knome: for the last one, I'd mention that manual resizing works ok
<knome> can you add that along with any details you wish?
<pleia2> yeah
<knome> thanks
<pleia2> I'm hoping https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/webkit/+bug/1028486 will be fixed by release
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1028486 in webkit (Ubuntu Quantal) "libwebkitgtk-3.0-0 recommending universe codecs" [Medium,Fix committed]
<knome> i thought micahg was on that already? :)
<pleia2> yeah
<micahg> umm, well, sometime today hopefully :)
<pleia2> micahg: you should sleep some time!
<knome> :)
<micahg> yeah, shortly :)
<pleia2> alright, updated wiki a little and http://xubuntu.org/?p=1352 is prepped for tomorrow
 * pleia2 sleep &
<knome> hihi
<knome> nighty
<Unit193> & causes it to continue.
<Unit193> Good night.
<knome> we should think how we want to spell a3
<knome> is it "alpha 3", "Alpha3" or sth else?
<knome> just saying,
<knome> .
<knome> i'm off, see you later
<astraljava> In the Release Schedule, it says Alpha 3.
<mr_pouit> knome: no change
<knome> mr_pouit, alright! :)
<micahg> knome: do we need the alternates for alpha3?
<knome> micahg, if it's possible/not too hard, yeah
<knome> if not, then not
<knome> :)
<knome> or if they're not full of bugs...
<knome> anyway, bbl ->
<pleia2> micahg: I'll add to the release notes that we're not doing an alternate
<micahg> thanks
<pleia2> micahg: will the alternate show up in alpha3 and be broken, or not show up at all? (figuring out how to word the blog post so it's clear)
<micahg> not show up at all if we don't want it
<pleia2> I think not showing up at all would be preferred, I'd rather get "where are the alts?" than "the alt is broken!" (people don't read release notes :))
<cody-somerville> Why is alt for Xubuntu broken?
<pleia2> gimp fails to install with codec-related dependency issues, if we had time to respin and fiddle with it would be fixed,, but we're running short on time
<mr_pouit> s/gimp/webkit/, no?
<pleia2> er yeah, webkit
<micahg> yeah, unfortunately, it took me 9 hours to get a successful test build before I uploaded the changed version (which in turn is still building)
<micahg> and the blacklist in the seeds apparently donm't work
<micahg> hrm, we should probably have a note on Qt being on the images as well
<pleia2> yeah, maybe add it to the line where we're already mentioning the image is oversized (is there a bug report for qt we can link?)
<micahg> no, but there probably should be /me files
<micahg> Bug #1029552 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1029552 in xubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Qt is pulled unnecessarily due to software-center Recommends and ubuntu-sso-client-gtk removal" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1029552
<pleia2> ok, so I'll alter to say:
<pleia2> libwebkitgtk-3.0-0 is pulling in gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad and gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg (1028486) and Qt is pulled unnecessarily due to software-center Recommends and ubuntu-sso-client-gtk removal (1029552), so the image larger than normal
<pleia2> micahg: accurate?
<micahg> that should be pulled in
<pleia2> er, which?
<micahg> Qt is pulled in
<pleia2> ok, how should I write this?
<micahg> libwebkitgtk-3.0-0 is pulling in gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad and gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg (1028486) and Qt is pulled in unnecessarily due to software-center Recommends and ubuntu-sso-client-gtk removal (1029552), so the image larger than normal
<micahg> grrr
<micahg> libwebkitgtk-3.0-0 is pulling in gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad and gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg (1028486) and Qt is pulled in unnecessarily due to software-center Recommends and ubuntu-sso-client-gtk removal (1029552), so the image is larger than normal 
<pleia2> oh oh, gotcha
<pleia2> so, we are an email away from acquiring @Xubuntu on twitter, thoughts on the change?
<pleia2> means we'll have to update our resources to point at the new name, but we'll keep all our followers with the rename
<micahg> Qt issue is being fixed, should hopefully be in tomorrow's dailies
<pleia2> knome: thoughts on twitter rename?
<knome> pleia2, what?
<knome> pleia2, oh, right.
<pleia2> bkerensa contacted twitter about getting the xubuntu name, it's a dead account set up with a fake email address so they're willing to give it to us
<knome> pleia2, yes, i suppose that would be cool. can we have a migration time when we'd have both, or do we need to just switch?
<pleia2> it would just be an immediate switch, technically it's a "rename" so it's the same account, just name changing
<knome> pleia2, i see
<pleia2> our same account, I mean
<knome> pleia2, do we have a list where we link to @XubuntuLinux ?
<pleia2> "Changing your username will not affect your existing followers, direct messages, or @replies. They will simply see a new username next to your picture when you Tweet.
<pleia2> Going forward, other users will need to @mention and message you at your new username. You may find it helpful to post a Tweet letting your followers know that you've selected a new username."
<knome> that shouldn't be too exhaustive, otoh, external links are.. meh
<pleia2> website, wiki and probably a couple blog posts
<pleia2> short term the change is a little painful, but I think it's worth it in the long run
<knome> i like @XubuntuLinux too, but i suppose shorter is better.
<knome> and we'll not have any confusion if we're @Xubuntu
<Unit193> More descriptive.
<knome> because no copycat/"parker" is not going to take @XubuntuSomethingelse
<knome> could they stop taking names, or is that out of question?
<knome> i'm thinking it would be nice if they could block @XubuntuLinux for a while
<pleia2> well, we could just re-grab it ;)
<knome> haha
<knome> ok
<knome> let's do it then, if you think re-grabbing is fine
<pleia2> ok
<knome> rename, and those who point to @XubuntuLinux... well, they'll get a message we've moved.
<pleia2> http://xubuntu.org/news/quantalalpha3/
<pleia2> it is done :)
<knome> awesome, thanks
<Unit193> Great.
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-27
<cc_INC> Hi guys, I have two questions regarding testing..
<pleia2> oh good, ask Unit193 :)
 * Unit193 knows nothing, helpful that is.
<cc_INC> Yesterday I did some testing and at some point my results where gone. I guess that means there is a new image available or something?
<Unit193> Generally, but you can look at the archive.
<pleia2> alpha3 just came out today (yesterday for you guys), so the images were a bit weird this week
<cc_INC> Oh good so it wasn't just me?
<Unit193> Yes, I still haven't seen if my script works or not, need them to respin an Xubuntu ISO.
<cc_INC> Second question for Unit193 for the nice new shiny fridge :) What is the Persistence Live CD Test?
<elfy> cc_INC: as far as I can see we're back to dailies
<Unit193> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/219/builds/19240/testcases We aren't supposed to have wubi...
<cc_INC> I somehow don't think I really get that :) :)
<elfy> cc_INC: where are you seeing persitence test ?
<Unit193> !persistence|But I don't see it either on there.
<ubottu> But I don't see it either on there.: To have some persistent storage when using a Live CD, follow the instructions on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDPersistence
<cc_INC> Thanks for the info ubottu
<cc_INC> Guys I'm off. Gonna do some light, early morning testing :)
<cc_INC> Later..
<astraljava> Unit193: Good point, I'll see if I can do anything about it over the weekend.
<knome> hai astraljava
<astraljava> o/
<Unit193> Must not be awake, said I had a good point.
<knome> bleh
<knome> see you later :)
<knome> ->
<elfy> knome - not sure if you are interested but I can get 'what's going on with xubuntu' added in to the QQ forum on ubuntuforums - lot's of people use the forum - but news of what's going on with xubuntu is usually fairly sparse 
<elfy> just an idea :)
<knome> elfy, that would be great.
<knome> elfy, though we should get the news in xubuntu.org, then basically just link
<elfy> woot 
<knome> but if you want to write an article to xubuntu.org... just let us know :)
<elfy> ok
<knome> cooking, bbl ->
<elfy> knome: at the moment we add the xubuntu.org news in - but nothing to stop me writing something for it to tie forum in a bit :)
<elfy> have fun with the cooking
<knome> mmh
<knome> was good
<knome> now, going out
<knome> see you
<pleia2> we haz https://twitter.com/Xubuntu
<bluesabre> pleia2: Sweet!
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> from G+:
<pleia2> i miss the running mouse splash screen...
<pleia2> i would boot my computer and think "run little mouse, your doing a great job! keep it up!"ï»¿
<pleia2> :)
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-28
<pleia2> knome: you about?
<pleia2> I need a line-art version of the xubuntu logo
<knome> by when
<pleia2> 5 minutes
<pleia2> :D
<knome> fsst
<knome> can't do in that timeframe
<knome> maybe by tomorrow? :P
<pleia2> alright
<knome> for what do you need it anyway? the eggbot?
<pleia2> yeah :)
<knome> hah
<knome> are you going to do something with it that you're going to present somewhere?
<knome> or just for fun?
<pleia2> just for fun, I'll blog about it and probably give people xubuntu ping pong balls ;)
<knome> lol
<knome> ok, i'll create that for you today or tomorrow :)
<knome> so, probably in the next 28 hours
<pleia2> thanks!
<pleia2> http://www.flickr.com/photos/pleia2/7663611124/
<pleia2> early experiment
<knome> probably not going to boot the desktop machine today, and we have guests coming in tomorrow night so i don't know when i have time tomorrow
<pleia2> it's not exactly round ;) still working on alignment
<knome> lol,k
<Unit193> You said "line-art" and I'm thinking ascii art. :P
<elfy> looks like great fun 
<mr_pouit> micahg: hey, could you sync orage when you have some time? (syncpackage looks broken in sid right now :)
<GridCube> pleia2, :P http://imagebin.org/222429
<mr_pouit> uploaded shimmer-themes with new bluebird/greybird/albatross to quantal
<knome> \o/
<knome> thanks mr_pouit 
<knome> i owe you some rum
<mr_pouit> knome: don't rejoice too much, ochosi is in vacation, so bug reports will be for you :P
 * mr_pouit runs
<knome> hah
<knome> that's fine. i'll make satya make the corrections, and let *you* reupload the packages
<mr_pouit> works for me (:
<knome> good
<knome> still want that rum, or should i rejoice of it myself? d:
<mr_pouit> hihi
<pleia2> GridCube: have as svg? :)
<GridCube> :P not really no, i just made it up from the logo on xubuntu.org using edge detection
<Morroque> Edge detection? Into SVG?
<Morroque> What program did you use for that?
<GridCube> irfanview, but i made an svg pleia2 :D
<GridCube> it was easier than i though
<GridCube> well... actually an odg :/
<knome> eh
<knome> i already posted the xubuntu logo lineart
<knome> and no need to use edge detection
<knome> easy enough with inkscape to just modify the original svg
<GridCube> :P
#xubuntu-devel 2012-07-29
<bluesabre> mr_pouit: In order to get the latest catfish and Parole into Quantal, when do they need to be released and uploaded by?  (When do I need to bug you about packaging and such?)  :-)
<mr_pouit> bluesabre: feature freeze is on Aug, 23th
<mr_pouit> 23rd
<bluesabre> Thanks mr_pouit.  ochosi mentioned that for catfish, we would need to get the latest version pushed to debian as well.  So is there an earlier date that needs to be released?
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-22
<Toa> Hello! I use a version of Xubuntu 13.10 on July 22. I have the following problem: Indicator plugin does not work correctly. Adjusting the sound is not active. Screenshot - http://rghost.ru/47590052/image.png
<elfy> Toa: yea - same thing here - just reporting it actually
<Toa> What should I do?
<elfy> mark the bug as affecting you - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-sound/+bug/1203739
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1203739 in indicator-sound (Ubuntu) "Indicator sound missing from indicators" [Undecided,New]
<elfy> Toa: possibly that will get marked as a duplicate of https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-sound/+bug/1202932
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1202932 in The Sound Menu "Missing sound menu icons after rev. 353" [Undecided,In progress]
<ochosi> elfy: is it possible that gtk2 support is finally gone for indicators? it has been fading away for the last few releases...
<elfy> I'm guessing it's something like that 
<elfy> still got the network one left :)
<ochosi> yeah, that's really a bad sign though...
<ochosi> network is the one we need least, cause it falls back to trayicon if there's no indicator support
<elfy> not having the vol one is a pita for people - not me - my sound card stays at about 80% and I control volume from amp
<knome> damn, elfy's gone
<Unit193> forestpiskie isn't.
<knome> yeah, but fp's not going to answer me at this time
<pleia2> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/07/xubuntu-stickers-go-on-sale
<knome> pleia2, seen
<pleia2> o
<knome> pleia2, you're supposed to be away!
<pleia2> I am, that's how I missed the news!
<pleia2> I am in jono's community manager thingy
<knome> lol
<knome> how is it?
<pleia2> it's good, but now he's talking about community managers reporting to bosses, so I am napping (ircing)
<knome> lol
<Unit193> "Community manager" always seems like a weird title.
<pleia2> there actually are some concrete strategies coming out of the community manager movement that are good
<knome> dare to elaborate?
<pleia2> things like having a mission statement and vision so people can get excited about contributing, then breaking down tasks into 1/2 day items so new folks can get them done
<knome> mhm
<pleia2> we already do a fair amount of this, breaking down tasks so they aren't so scary
<pleia2> but there are projects where I do it less, can improve a lot
<knome> sure
<knome> but does the community manager really do that?
<knome> or is it his job?
<knome> does jono cut up tasks to smaller ones?
<pleia2> some
<knome> or is he just telling others to do it
<pleia2> strategy development, project management, making sure tools are there for projects and accountability
<knome> sure, but that's not "breaking down tasks"
<knome> but yeah, i agree
<knome> it can be a good thing
 * pleia2 pays attention again
<knome> and i'm pretty sure jono is doing a good job - from his employers POV
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-23
<micahg> hrm, are we not in for alpha 2?
<micahg> ochosi: gtk indicator support was gone in 12.10 IIRC
<micahg> if something is broke, we need to fix it
<skellat> micahg: We should be in A2
<skellat> micahg: If we're not, somebody from Xubuntu Release Team needs to fire off e-mails
<micahg> skellat: yes, someone does :)
<skellat> RELEASE TEAM: knome bluesabre elfy forestpiskie mr_pouit --- Somebody needs to please go into #ubuntu-release and ask nicely that an Alpha 2 build be spun up for us and also send an e-mail on the relevant list for good measure please.
<bluesabre> skellat: I messaged #xubuntu-release.  If you know any relevant docs or wiki pages (or processes) on what else I should do, please point me in the right direction. :-)
<bluesabre> I mean #ubuntu-release
<elfy> thanks bluesabre I just caught that message - I'll ignore it now
<bluesabre> elfy: not sure who else or what else I should do, so if you're more seasoned, please pick up where I left off
<elfy> nope - I got put in the release team a month before you ;)
<bluesabre> cool, hopefully knome or mr_pouit  mrpouit show up then :)
<elfy> :)
<knome> looks like we're getting some magazine moolah soonish
<lderan> cool
<skellat> bluesabre: No real documentation.  Just keep an eye on #ubuntu-release and be subscribed to their mailing list.
<skellat> bluesabre: Good news from in-channel discussion is everybody is getting re-spun due to borked kernels
<elfy> alpha2 is now rebuilding 
<elfy> knome: the next thing I need to work out is how to add a testcase so it shows for people to report against 
<micahg> elfy: please make sure our builds have the fixed kernel before people start testing (see backscroll in -release)
<elfy> micahg: this bit? elfy: there you go ^ note that those are broken and you'll need to respin once we get the new kernel+d-i in the release pocket (or infinity will just respin everyone)
<micahg> yes
<elfy> micahg: so I should mark as disabled on trackker for the moment? 
<micahg> please
<micahg> unless you want to field questions about kernel breakage ;)
<elfy> mmmm - think I'll give that a miss :p
<elfy> marked them as disabled but nothing seems to have changed ... can you look here and see what it looks like to you please = http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/299/builds
<elfy> doing it the long hand way ... 
<elfy> micahg: though I'd love some way of knowing when it's got the new kernel too 
<micahg> elfy: I'd suggest idling in -release to watch when stuff happens
<knome> elfy, have you figured out the alpha2 stuff with stgraber?
<knome> elfy, i can go through the testcase stuff in a minute if you are around
<elfy> micahg: thought so :)
<elfy> knome: got alpha2 stuff sorted yep 
<elfy> knome: half way through cooking atm - so not just yet
<knome> ok, just ping me then
<elfy> ta :)
<pleia2> elfy: hugs
<elfy> pleia2: thanks :)
<elfy> knome: I'm about now - whenever you've got time
<knome> elfy, sure, just a sec
<elfy> no rush - I'm about for a couple of hours tonight
<knome> elfy, let me get on a same page with you - do you want to add a test from the repository to the tracker, or want to make a test in the tracker visible for users?
<elfy> want to know how to add a test so it's visible in tracker for us to ask people to test 'things'
<elfy> you wanted an abiword one for instance 
<knome> elfy, ok. do you know if the test is in the tracker and just hidden, or if it's only in the repositories?
<elfy> the abiword test is in http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/admin/config/services/qatracker/testsuites if that's what you mean
<knome> yes, that is what i was after :)
<elfy> so - what I want to know then is how to get that to show on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/270/builds/49654/testcases for instance
<knome> no way
<knome> the package tests will always be in packages.qa....
<elfy> mmm
<elfy> so how do we get them tested? 
<knome> just point people to the packages tracker :)
<elfy> mmm
<knome> (it runs the same software, and if you're familiar with iso.qa... you should be fine with packages.qa....)
<knome> so basically
<elfy> not sure you're getting what I am after then
<knome> we have a testsuite for abiword already
<elfy> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/270/builds/49654/testcases
<elfy> go there
<elfy> a week or two ago there was a test there for parole
<knome> sure, because that was added in the iso tracker
<elfy> so then
<knome> we could still do that, but because package tests are DE-agnostic, we should add them under packages.
<elfy> I'm obviously not making myself plain here
<knome> you are.
<elfy> how can we ask people to test things
<knome> i totally understand what you are saying
<knome> we tell them to log in to packages.qa.ubuntu.com and tell them to test X, Y and Z packages
<elfy> then I see no reason at all for writing testcases - we've got no way of asking people to test things and report 
<knome> well, what we *can* do
<knome> is create a new testcase for the xubuntu post-installation testsuite
<knome> that says "go to packages.qa... and test X, Y, Z"
<elfy> aah ok 
<knome> that should be just a placeholder though
<knome> but basically, when we send call for testing
<elfy> so then how do we add things to that place
<knome> we should point to both iso.qa... and packages.qa...
<knome> (ideally)
<elfy> everything about ubuntu QA is ridiculously convoluted
<knome> so, on packages.qa... we have the abiword product sitting ready
<elfy> ok - so let's add abiword to it now then :)
<knome> sorry, abiword testsuite :)
<knome> http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/admin/config/services/qatracker/testsuites/328/edit
<knome> and it has the abiword testcase
<knome> so what you need to do now is actually ask balloons to make that visible
<knome> same with any other testsuite you want visible
<elfy> oh right - so after all that we can't actually do anything 
<knome> no, not us mortals
<knome> except
<knome> we should get some products up
<knome> after that we would have more power
<elfy> :)
<knome> but it's not completely clear how we're going to organize that
<elfy> nope
<knome> but i'm working on it with balloons
<elfy> ok 
<knome> i hope everything is a bit more clear for the 14.04 testing
<elfy> what I really want to do is have all this basework ready for 14.04
<elfy> snap lol
<knome> so anyway, to defend the different URLs...
<knome> it does make sense to have the iso testing and package testing separated
<elfy> I can see why wwe have iso and package
<elfy> that's not my gripe 
<knome> there are other subdomains too
<knome> (xubuntu just doesn't need them, fortunately)
<knome> we should ask balloons what his idea is
<elfy> my gripe is that there is nowhere you can see what to do to get things done - seems that QA is working from the middle backwards and forwards at the same time 
<knome> sure
<knome> the ISO tests live a bit different life anyway
<elfy> :)
<knome> there's a peak around milestones
<elfy> yea
<knome> for package tests, we should rather have cadence testing
<knome> and as i said, package tests are DE-agnostic
<elfy> I was expecting an easy way to say get people to test 'this' now 
<knome> we could set up a wiki page that lists stuff we want people to test
<elfy> mmm
<knome> and simply send an email saying "milestone X testing is coming, dates are Y and Z, look at wiki_url to see what we need to test"
<knome> so you wouldn't need to go through it every time
<elfy> so - get EVERYTHING on the package tracker then do the real work for us on a wiki
<knome> just update the wiki when we add new tests
<elfy> that makes sense
<knome> every package
<knome> and every iso on the iso tracker
<knome> (as we have)
<knome> i think the hurdle here is making people acknowledge there is a package tracker
<elfy> :)
<knome> i suppose many think ISO testing is the one thing we need to do
<elfy> yep 
<knome> and so far, that's pretty much what we have been doing
<knome> now we need to extend - and we happen to have a different place for those different kind of tests
<knome> brb
<elfy> k
<elfy> so - place to start would be to ask again for the team to add bugs for tests that we don't have one for yet - so we can work towards getting evrything done in time to get all this structure in place
<knome> yup
<knome> and start building the wiki page
<elfy> right 
<elfy> something solid I can get hold of then as long as people reply :)
<elfy> I'll do that request again to the list for packages we want tests for 
<knome> sure
<elfy> I don't think there will be 'much' to add to our list 
<elfy> as far as the wiki is concerned I'd not envisage it being much more than a list of names - package.qa urls and somewhere to 'tick' if we want it testing 
<knome> sure
<knome> simple is good
<elfy> k - well I'm on a 7 day weekend soon so will start working on that 
<knome> cool
<elfy> ok - done the mail now,  once we've got that covered we're in a good place - once the tests are written it'll be a better place :)
<knome> i just updated http://xubuntu.org/contribute/qa/#testing
<elfy> thanks - saw the update immediately :)
<knome> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/PackagesList
<elfy> when I create this ... 
<elfy> you read my mind :p
<knome> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-testers is also updated
<elfy> and did a bit more :)
<knome> good to have it all sorted out
<elfy> cool - so that's the 'circle' created - just need the detail now :)
<knome> want to enable you to be able to do things rather than wondering about things :D
<elfy> :)
<knome> anyway, bbl
<knome> have fun :)
<elfy> yep - cya - thanks knome :)
<pleia2> nothing interesting tutorial-wise this afternoon, so if the wifi holds up gonna try to have a look at the flier
<knome> pleia2, heh
<knome> is the voyager linux developer now pointing people to #xubuntu automatically? (nick voyager79)
<Unit193> Let me check.
<knome> i tried to, but didn't found anything
<Unit193> I'm actually checking the ISO itself.
<knome> ah, oki
<rowboatnick> just spent hours on making an ldm greeter with a virtual assistant that could tell you things about the system, when it hit me: "thats useless, people want to login" 
<rowboatnick> ops
<knome> i wouldn't be surprised if that was the case actually.
<rowboatnick> was going for -offtopic
<Unit193> Sooo, ##ubuntu-voyager, #VoyagerOS, or #voyager? :P
<knome> huh?
<Noskcaj> Since we ship gThumb, should we be worried by http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=711827
<ubottu> Debian bug 711827 in wnpp "RFA: gthumb -- image viewer and browser" [Normal,Open]
<knome> we still have ristretto
<skellat> RFA...Request for Adoption
<knome> sure, that's not quite as what gthumb is
<skellat> Still waiting for bugs.d.o to open
<skellat> Okay
<skellat> Noskcaj: An RFA bug is when a Debian Maintainer wants to stop being the maintainer for a package
<Noskcaj> i know
<skellat> There hasn't been a new version for a while of gthumb in Debian
<skellat> Gotta look at upstream to see what they're doing with it: https://wiki.gnome.org/gthumb
<skellat> The mailing list to it looks a little quiet but a new version was released by upstream: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gthumb-list/2013-July/msg00000.html
<Unit193> Meh, their ubiquity is unchanged, so not getting the nick from that.
<xnox> hm?
<Unit193> xnox: Howdy, nothing related to you, don't worry. :P
<micahg> Noskcaj: care to adopt?
<skellat> Noskcaj: The Debian package QA page has a better set of details: http://packages.qa.debian.org/g/gthumb.html
 * skellat is ready to cheer for Noskcaj if he adopts gthumb
 * micahg is thinking to Make Xubuntu dev the maintainer of gthumb...
<ochosi> hey micahg 
<pleia2> huh, gthumb has more features than I noticed
<knome> pleia2, heh
 * skellat goes back to reading the log that needs reading: irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/07/23/%23ubuntu-mir.html
<pleia2> are we fixed yet? :)
<skellat> pleia2: See: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/07/23/%23ubuntu-mir.html#t05:46
<pleia2> skellat: btw, thanks for keeping an eye on this, much appreciated
<Unit193> Hah.
<Unit193> skellat: You don't hang out in there?
<pleia2> good golly
<Unit193> Hah, you saw that comment too?  I didn't make any comments on it. :P
<skellat> Unit193: Nope.  Trying to avoid "observation effect" cropping up.
<pleia2> Unit193: fixed the link to the flyers, thanks for the heads up
<knome> who needs links to flyers
<knome> :P
<knome> you're not worthy enough to see the wikipage if you can't find it
<knome> (just kidding)
 * pleia2 kicks knome off the welcome wagon
<knome> hahah
<knome> :)
<pleia2> scaring people off
<pleia2> :)
<knome> you're just promising i don't have to do any PR work...
<pleia2> oh, I owe you a wiki page
<knome> which one then?
<pleia2> xubuntu at...
<knome> heh, that's true
<pleia2> I think I'm going to bail from here after the expo hall opens, had my fill of people :)
<knome> heh
<knome> ++
<pleia2> should have time at hotel after finding food
<knome> food is good
<knome> micahg, if we maintain gthumb, does that mean i can send you feature requests? :P
<micahg> knome: sure, and I'll do what every other maintainer does, fwd them upstream
<knome> ;)=
<Unit193> Sure.
<knome> duh.
<knome> i thought i had covered all the links in the wiki
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-24
<elfy> micahg: well marking the things as disabled doesn't appear to do anything - nor can I see in -release anything relating to kernel :(
<knome> pleia2, so is now your late? :P
<pleia2> yeah, but I got caught up in prepping for my talk
<knome> :D
<elfy> knome: can you see if the damned thing can be rebuilt yet? I see it got rebuilt again - but micahg was worrying about the kernel 
<knome> i'm pretty sure it got rebuilt because of the kernel
<elfy> ok 
<sak> Hello Xubuntu developers. My name is istimsak and I am a new member of the ubuntu QA team. I have been using xubuntu since 12.04 which currently is one of the best ubuntu spins I have ever used. I want to xubuntu improve and become. To do that, I decided to offer my assistance in helping push xubuntu in its prosperous direction.
<sak> Sorry, some typos. "I want to xubuntu improve and become", I would like to see xubuntu improve and become on the best ubuntu OS.
<Noskcaj10> hey sak 
<sak> hey jackson
<Noskcaj10> Since you already do some QA stuff, the best thing to do is test a few of the xubuntu ISOs and subscribe to the mailing list
<elfy> and write manual testcases ... 
<Noskcaj10> yes, although i think you need to find something other to do than nag about testcases elfy ;)
<sak> Way ahead of you :-). Just got finished downloading the alpha2 ISOs. Will be testing those later on today. I have subscribed to the mailin-list a while back. I try to constantly monitor it.
<sak> LOL, what ever helps. That is what I am here for.
<Unit193> I'm here for the cookies, then I couldn't figure out how to leave and got voluntold for stuff. >_>
<Unit193> ;)
<Noskcaj10> Those are the main things, if theres anything else (packaging, artwork, translations, promotion) you want to do, ask.
<sak> cookies, someone has cookies? :-)
<sak> will do
<Noskcaj10> sak, that's the whole purpose of -forums
<Noskcaj10> virtual cookies
<sak> Are those edible?
<Noskcaj10> somethimes ;)
<Noskcaj10> *times
<sak> I'll take that lol
<sak> this was great chatting, but is past my bedtime. later :)
<Noskcaj> good night
<jason_creation> i've tried goin on iso.qa.ubuntu.com, but it just stalls. Is it just me?
<Noskcaj> jason_creation, just you, or your area. there are sites set up to tell you if it's just you.
<Noskcaj> and #ubuntu-quality would have been the place to ask
<jason_creation> ok, sorry, my bad.
<Noskcaj> don't worry
<bluesabre> micahg: my latest commit to catfish gets rid of the gksu dependency, I'll do a fancy release on that soon
<GridCube> pleia2_, knome, when do you think we can publicite the showcase project?
<pleia2> when GridCube comes back... I'm waiting on him
<pleia2> I told him to let me know when he was ready :)
<pleia2> we need some announcey text for the blog
 * pleia2 off to oscon
<knome> nah
<knome> *bah
<knome> i can semi-mockup something at some point
<knome> pleia2, http://pad.ubuntu.com/sG7L6CQInJ
<lderan> pleia2: oscon looks interesting
<knome> blaech
<skellat> Okay, now we've got somebody saying Mir in 13.10 is just a tech preview for people to try: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2013/07/24/%23ubuntu-mir.html#t12:53
<skellat> And LP Bug 1196239 looks like it would break things for us 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1196239 in Mir "Cannot change display resolution" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1196239
<lderan> oh dear
<Unit193> I think it's pointless for me to say, but no Mir package updates, so no new ISO (unless you want to try staging. :P )
<pleia2> knome: my favorite part about conference wifi is when it doesnt even load an etherpad
 * pleia2 gives up, too many disconnects
<skellat> Unit193: Most of the IRC discussion says staging is not safe so...yeah...no re-spin needed unless you see something safe to re-spin with
<Unit193> I've read, I idle there.
<knome> pleia2 <3
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-25
<knome> elfy, can you update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/Alpha2/Xubuntu
<knome> ochosi, ping
<knome> bug 1204486
<ubottu> bug 1204486 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "Unable to select alternate languages at login screen" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1204486
<knome> ochosi, also, theming fail: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/saucy_testing/bug_greeter_shutdown_popup.png
<knome> ochosi, and don't tell me i didn't inform you well before the finel release. :)
<bluesabre> gotta go, be back way later
<knome> have fun
<jjfrv8> Hi, knome. I just did a MP for the P docs with the three suggested changes from the reviewers.
<knome> jjfrv8, cheers!
<jjfrv8> Hey
<knome> i'll look at the MP in a minute
<knome> jjfrv8, "next paragraph" isn't really accurate
<knome> jjfrv8, i would be more comfortable with "subsection" or so
<jjfrv8> knome, yeah, I puzzled over that one for a while. Thought about making it a link, but it was too close. I can make it "subsection".
<knome> if you would do that, would be cool
<knome> i'm happy with the other stuff and can merge once you re-submit the MP
<jjfrv8> NP
<knome> MP, NP, ... :)
<jjfrv8> :D
<jjfrv8> knome, MP with revision is up there.
<knome> jjfrv8, now that we use the term subsection, what do you say on removing "next" ?
<jjfrv8> That's better.  Will do.
<jjfrv8> Done
<knome> btw, did you know you could've just updated the same branch and re-submit the same MP?
<jjfrv8> No, did not know that. Will try to remember that for next time.  Thanks.
<knome> if you want, you can try that now
<jjfrv8> Ok
<jjfrv8> repushed and resubmitted
<knome> great!
<jjfrv8> Shall I delete the two unnecessary MPs?
<knome> sure
<knome> approved, merged and pushed to main branch
<jjfrv8> :)
<jjfrv8> Okay, I think it's all cleaned up
<knome> yup, awesome
<jjfrv8> Sorry for the extra work
<knome> absolutely no problem
<jjfrv8> Gotta go now, day job is calling. But I am working on getting an irc server set up.
<knome> okay, have fun
<knome> (and you can also ask pleia2 for a shell if you want to go the easier way)
<jjfrv8> I don't know all the pros and cons of the different ways of doing it but I don't want to have to leave my desktop running all the time
<knome> sure. using pleia2's server will allow you that
<knome> basically, it's the same as setting up or buying a shell
<knome> except you don't set up anything and it's free.
<ochosi> knome: what version of the greeter is that? 1.6?
<knome> ochosi, whatever is in saucy
<ochosi> (and: what version of greybird)
<knome> ^
<knome> same
<ochosi> cause that bug has been addressed in git
<knome> no git stuff, just what's in saucy
<knome> which one?
<knome> the theming, or the lock-fail?
<ochosi> the shutdown-dialog theming
<knome> i was hoping the other :)
<knome> but okay.
<knome> i'll not file a bug about that then (i thought you'd know about it by now)
<knome> do you think you could get working on the locking issue soon?
<ochosi> what locking issue?
<knome> (we will release alpha 2 with that bug in, but would be great if that was solved by betas)
<knome> ochosi, bug 1204486
<ubottu> bug 1204486 in LightDM GTK+ Greeter "Unable to select alternate languages at login screen" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1204486
<knome> ochosi, see my comments on the bug
<ochosi> aha
<ochosi> yeah, didn't know about that one
<knome> yup
<ochosi> bluesabre: seems we have to fix a greeter-bug ^
<knome> awwh, the news tell that a bird in finland has 1000+ fans on facebook
<knome> news fail
<knome> yes, a single unit of bird, not a species
<lderan> a popular bird then
<ochosi> maybe Greybird?
<knome> har har
<knome> lderan, just some "orphan"
<knome> whistler
<lderan> ah one of those news stories
<knome> yup, that's why i referred is as a news fail :P
<knome> ochosi, btw, in saucy, the lock screen was still xscreensaver...
<knome> ochosi, are you going to get the lightdm lockscreen in?
<ochosi> knome: yeah, i'm not surprised. so far we've only done a dev-release of light-locker
<ochosi> so far there are a few bugreports that we'll address in the first release
<ochosi> and then we can get it in (with mr_pouit and micahg's help i hope)
<knome> ochosi, good - if you miss 13.10 it's not too bad, but i'd *really* like to get that in for 14.04
<ochosi> mm, same here
<ochosi> have you tested it yet?
<ochosi> (there's a ppa)
<knome> ochosi, was there some progress on the gtk-theme-chooser and the display dialog?
<knome> no, not yet
<knome> ppa for raring or saucy?
<ochosi> display-dialog is kinda up to mr_pouit 
<ochosi> both raring and saucy i think
<knome> okay
<ochosi> cause the display-dialog hasn't seen a stable release (which would be xfce4.12)
<knome> i might test it in saucy, unless you need some real hardware testing
<ochosi> nah, i guess both is fine
<knome> ok, i'll do that the next time i run a test or so
<ochosi> gtk-theme-config is still on micahg's list (i hope)
<ochosi> cool, thanks
<knome> oki, great to hear there's something going on
<knome> need to start pulling the strings together for 14.04
<knome> would love to have a totally integrated-looking system
<knome> :)
<ochosi> sounds good :)
<elfy> knome: this fail http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/299/builds/49672/testcases/1303/results can't be - we don't have usb-creator as a default app afaik - that's using a supposedly agnostic testcase - that testcase I have reported a bug against https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual-tests/+bug/1198466
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1198466 in Ubuntu Manual Tests "Live Session Testcase calls for Startup Disk Creator" [Undecided,New]
<knome> elfy, the persistence part needs that
<knome> elfy, see -quality, where i'm just discussing this in a more general tone with balloons
<elfy> ok - will do shortly 
<knome> bbiab
<elfy> k
<elfy> 'hopefully' I'm about 
<knome> i'm back!
<elfy> knome: I'm a bit tied up at the moment - but I'd like to try and sort out stopping things like a2 from disappearing - it'd great for ubuntu - but I'd love to be able to hold it for us - we have less testers
<elfy> I know it used to drive me nuts when I was just testing - even worse now
<knome> elfy, disappearing in what sense?
<elfy> run out of time 
<knome> elfy, once we've marked stuff ready, you can't *report* more stuff
<knome> elfy, and marking things ready is the prerequisite of releasing
<elfy> oic - so we could just not mark it? 
<elfy> is it really that simple? 
<knome> well, no
<knome> we need to mark them ready..
<knome> but the good thing is
<knome> you can always report against the saucy dailies
<elfy> yea - I realise that and that a2 is just 'that' daily 
<knome> milestones live their own life and the point of marking the images done is to not make the release mangers life a pain
<elfy> ok
<elfy> more thought needed here - though I guess next time as we participated we'll not get forgotten
<knome> elfy, the "Saucy Daily" milestone has the exact same images than alpha2
<elfy> I know :)
<knome> (and same tests)
<knome> then just report against the daily! :)
<elfy> yea 
<elfy> perhaps I'm seeing issues were there isn't any 
<knome> i'm thinking that's the case
<elfy> :)
<knome> in the case we wanted more time for image testing for a milestone, we simply should ask for more time before the release manager releases
<knome> or request a respin if something is really brokwn
<knome> *broken
<knome> that way we'll get *some* additional time automatically
<elfy> I'm possibly trying to apply methodology from work areas
<knome> but that also puts our testers under pressure
<knome> mhm
<elfy> ok - I'll worry less about that and more about other things :)
<knome> the alpha milestones in the tracker are just created to 1) get an image that isn't updated for X days 2) track where flavors are regarding releasing
<elfy> I don't want to put any testers under pressure ;)
<knome> well sometimes a respin is the only/best option, but not this time
<knome> there were clearly bugs in the images, but not something we could have fixed today
<knome> so either we said "ok release anyway" or "we don't want to release, but go ahead with the rest"
<elfy> yep - I get that, it's the X days ... if ubuntu have 500 testers - 5 days is great, loads of tests - if we have 20 testers then not so good 
<elfy> is my position
<elfy> I'm trying to find a way to get a bit more coverage on tests
<knome> sure.
<knome> i told to "freeze" our images as soon as somebody asked when we wanted to do that
<knome> just start being noisy in #ubuntu-release X days before beta 1 about "freezing" our images again
<elfy> having never done it - I was a bit at sea
<elfy> yea - realising that now lol 
<knome> (that also means all developers should deliver their stuff one week before the beta, so puts some more pressure on them - but not huge)
<elfy> yea
<elfy> trying to find the balance is key
<knome> actually 1 week before is the beta freeze day anyway so the developers are expected that :P
<elfy> :)
<elfy> I'm thinking that the 14.04 cycle will go much better - I'm not going to be learning as well
<knome> sure :)
<knome> bbl
<ganglere1> I'm working on the post-installation test case. How do you test USB devices from within virtualbox?
<Unit193> Need the extension pack, as far as I know.
<ganglere1> vb extension pack?
<ganglere1> I'm installing the guest additions now, we'll see if that does it.
<ganglere> Had to enable usb controller in machine settings and add myself to vboxusers on the host, don't think I needed guest additions
<knome> pleia2, dum dum...
<knome> :)
<ganglere> Ok, so for "Post-installation (Xubuntu) in Xubuntu Desktop amd64 for Saucy Daily" everything ran flawlessly except that ubuntu software center crashed on the first try. It hasn't crashed since though. Should I go through the whole process again and see if it crashed on first launch?
<knome> if it crashed, it crashed
<knome> report a bug (no need to go back)
<ganglere> Ok, thanks.
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-26
 * ochosi is wondering whether shipping whiskermenu by default instead of our current appmenu wouldn't be a nice move...
<ochosi> (i've used it for a while and it's really quite nice so far)
<GridCube> :) that would be interesting indeed
<ochosi> ppa:gottcode/gcppa for testing
<GridCube> P: thing is, i hardly use the app menu anyway, i have all the apps i want in launchers or i use alt-f2
<GridCube> i like how you can resize it, but i dont like how the menus open to the left
<Unit193> Silly Alt+F2, trying to be appfinder. :/  (I know, it technically is.)
<knome> heh
<micahg> ochosi: FWIW, I'm finishing up gtk-theme-config now
<knome> micahg, nice :)
<micahg> knome: think there's any issue with me having Debian bug mail go to xubuntu-devel?
<knome> all of it? :P
<micahg> or should I create a team for Xubuntu Debian package maintenance
<micahg> no, just packages that we own outside of pkg-xfce
<knome> umm.
<micahg> mr_pouit: ^^ your thoughts when you have a chance
<knome> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-bugs
<micahg> no, that's a nightmare :)
<micahg> I want a list that people will  read
<knome> well bleh
<knome> i don't want bugmail on -devel because we're not doing any of it now either
<micahg> I can make a new team (I should really do this on alioth, but I'm being lazy)
<micahg> meh
 * micahg makes a new team on alioth
<knome> :)
<micahg> well, hrm
<Unit193> http://0bin.net/paste/B+NQN6UuUSgnkQLC#NkEzFphEYU7FydoWEH+60d7OhqgyuQRUh2VT8zdG1k4= was most of what I did... :/
<knome> hrm what?
<micahg> Unit193: turns out I just needed to drop the install file
<micahg> Unit193: I'll grab your description, please feel free to commit
<Unit193> micahg: Yeah, I commented that out, the images didn't exist and it didn't need it.
<micahg> (or I can)
<Unit193> Sure, feel free (I don't need any credit.)
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/pHdhxgcFk3RAtPPxY29x full bzr diff, so not much.
<micahg> oh, is there a 1.0 now?
<Unit193> Yeah.
 * micahg updates
<Unit193> I didn't really know what to do with the hardening warning.
<micahg> I'll take a look
<micahg> Unit193: I see no such warning, do you have a paste?
<Unit193> I can if I re-branch and download the tarball.
<micahg> Unit193: rebranch, uscan
<Unit193> That'll do.
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/rjREttOYKvgjzcqLl6PX
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/2xZdZTd05AEWiI6rYxQL if you want -i
<Unit193> Lintian v2.5.11ubuntu13
<micahg> Unit193: thanks, can I fix and you'll try again?
<Unit193> Sure.
 * micahg really should get on saucy
 * Unit193 is on Raring.
<knome> i'm at home
<knome> (i literally lol'ed at that joke of my own)
<knome> (but it's 5:30am)
<Unit193> Noooo, should have said "I'm on my bed"
<micahg> Unit193: pushed
<micahg> hrm, I think I need one more thing
<Unit193> Don't remember what I tried, but did a couple...
<knome> Unit193, you tried a couple?
<knome> okay, we're losing the control here.
<Unit193> knome: Less beer! ;P
<knome> no beer today
<Unit193> Teddy bear?
<knome> no teddy's either
<micahg> Unit193: ok, that should do it
<Unit193> Running.
<Unit193> W: gtk-theme-config: hardening-no-fortify-functions usr/bin/gtk-theme-config
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/lI7HBiV2j5JqNyKV8iFo
<Unit193> My guess was how the Makefile was written, but that's me...
 * micahg tries again with compat level 9
<Unit193> (Worth a shot, but I think I did that one...)
<micahg> I see the flags not being passed in vala
<micahg> oh!
<micahg> Unit193: I think you're right
<Unit193> Wooo!  I may not be as stupid as I look!
<knome> :P
<micahg> valac -X -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -X -g -X -O2 -X -fPIE -X -fstack-protector -X --param=ssp-buffer-size=4 -X -Wformat -X -Werror=format-security -X -Wl,-Bsymbolic-functions -X -fPIE -X -pie -X -Wl,-z,relro -X -Wl,-z,now --pkg gtk+-3.0 -X -lm gtk-theme-config.vala -o gtk-theme-config
<micahg> \o/
<Unit193> Wooo!  Something to push to satya164? :P
<micahg> http://paste.ubuntu.com/5913491/ better at least
<micahg> yeah
<Unit193> Indeed.
<Unit193> Figured I'd better leave it to you...
 * micahg has to dig up his github credentials now...maybe later
<Unit193> Heh, better than my method. :P
<micahg> Unit193: rev 16 pushed
<Unit193> And now just the two. \o/
<micahg> excellent, after I've fwd the patch upstream I'll push to mentors
<Unit193> (Tried on amd64 with precise lintian too. :P )
<micahg> ochosi: ^^ progress :)
<Unit193> Ping a few more times for fun! :P
<micahg> hrm, /me adds --as-needed for Debian
<ochosi> micahg: awesome stuff!
<Noskcaj> When are the login screen theme glitches expected to be fixed?  
<knome> Noskcaj, when there's the next upload for themes
<Noskcaj> ok
<Noskcaj> knome, FYI the installer theme shouldn't have a maximise button. bug 1177116
<ubottu> bug 1177116 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "maximise button does nothing in Ubiquity" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1177116
<knome> sounds like it's a problem of xfwm, not theming
<knome> ochosi, ^
<Noskcaj> ok. I'll just check what happens in live session (i really should have done that sooner)
<Noskcaj> The plus button exists but doesn't work in live session
<knome> okay.
<knome> bleh.
<knome> i need a pen and paper
<elfy> oh dear
<knome> huh, there are like 5 tests that had id's but not in the tracker
<elfy> which ones 
<knome> dict, mime, power manager, task manager, window manager, app finder
<knome> did you find out which one of the panel tests were the correct one?
<elfy> window manager was one of mine - I know for fact I didn't give it a number 
<knome> common sense says bigger number, but...
<elfy> knome: they both appear to be ok - one is more detailed than the other 
<elfy> 1573 being more detailed
<elfy> app finder was one of mine too, balloons merged those I'm sure - had some issues because tracker or something didn't like _  - I'd guess he was numbering them
<knome> ok
<elfy> knome: I would go with 1573 panel testcase 
<knome> just did that
<elfy> k
<elfy> if you're moving stuff about - I'll not merge this gthumb one till you've finished
<knome> i am
<elfy> sorry - my english - I meant "as you're "
<knome> heh
<elfy> never trust an English man's english :p
<knome> ok, that should be good now
<knome> argh
<knome> wait
<knome> ok. done
<knome> question:
<knome> do we want to modify the exo-helper test to make sure exo-helper works, or modify it to be about xubuntu keyboard shortcuts?
<elfy> 2 secs
<knome> one...
<knome> two...
<knome> so?
<elfy> I did that one from what I knew - mostly followed where the bug pointed I think
<knome> want me to explain what's wrong with it?
<elfy> mmmm
<elfy> wonder how I managed to do that then
<knome> i mean, the point is
<elfy> I see what's up with it 
<knome> exo-helper is a wrapper that detects the preferred application, say for a browser
<elfy> yea 
<knome> so if there's a shortcut that points to mousepad... that's not anything to do with exo-helper
<elfy> yea I know - don't know why I did it lol
<knome> well otoh it kind of makes sense to test all the shortcuts
<elfy> modify it to be about xubuntu keyboard shortcuts - I can do the exo-helper one again
<knome> well i'm wondering if we want both
<knome> i'd be pretty happy with the exo one in packages. and a brief mention about shortcuts working generally in the ISO post-installation test
<elfy> ok 
<elfy> I'm easy enough to please - I'd happily do another testcase if we thought it necessary
<knome> BOO
<knome> there's no way to get to edit a testcase text from the testsuite view
<knome> you have to go pick the testcases from the testsuite from the testcases view
<elfy> talking about changing the title?
<knome> no, i'm cleaning up the markup for the xfce tests
<knome> but the title too.
<elfy> oh right
<elfy> am I ok to merge this gthumb one now? 
<knome> go ahead, i'll fix things if there are conflicts
<elfy> ok - all done
<knome> so huh: http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/admin/config/services/qatracker/testsuites/348/edit
<knome> there's still that exo-helper test we can fix ;)
<elfy> so what do you want to do - change it's name or edit and create another for kbd shortcuts? 
<knome> i'd say edit it to be a test for exo
<knome> and briefly mention about testing shortcuts on the ISO post-install test
<elfy> ok - leave the exo thing to me and I'll do it now 
<knome> ok, ta
 * knome pokes other things
<elfy> I can just pull the branch and edit it there can't I - then check it's ok and push it back - that correct? 
<knome> yes
<elfy> k
<knome> when you've done that, poke me
<elfy> ok
<knome> or alternatively, copy the new text over to the tracker as well
<elfy> not sure what you mean
<elfy> let me edit the testcase first 
<knome> go to http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/admin/config/services/qatracker/testcases/1568/edit and copy-paste the file contents to that box
<knome> so the test is updated on the tracker as well
<elfy> aah right - ok - got that :)
<knome> there are two transmission testcases in the tracker as well, but that's not our problem
<knome> elfy, bunch of links incoming
<knome> Our product: http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/admin/config/services/qatracker/products/335/testsuites
<knome> The Xfce testsuite: http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/admin/config/services/qatracker/testsuites/348/edit
<knome> The Xfce Applications testsuite: http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/admin/config/services/qatracker/testsuites/351/edit
<knome> The Xubuntu Office testsuite: http://packages.qa.ubuntu.com/admin/config/services/qatracker/testsuites/350/edit
<knome> there are still a few tests we're not covering in those testsuites we might want/need to:
<knome> file-roller, network manager, transmission, simple scan, xchat, gimp, gthumb
<knome> then thunderbird, firefox
<knome> possibly pulseaudio-related things
<elfy> network testsuite - f/f, tbird, network manager, xchat, pidigin perhaps?
<knome> was thinking about that
<knome> and adding simple scan under office
<knome> and yeah, pidgin...
<knome> i somehow missed that
<knome> do we ship both pidgin and xchat actually?
<knome> or just pidgin
<knome> i think just pidgin
<elfy> xchat definitely - I've not had to install it for years
<knome> oki
<knome> then we ship both
<elfy> super+t has changed to ctrl+alt+t now hasn't it? 
<knome> we have both
<elfy> ok
<knome> heh
<knome> i missed the pidgin testcase because there isn't one
<elfy> it's not done yet - sorry :)
<elfy> knome: ok so I changed the exo test - did bzr commit - but it won't let me push as 
<elfy> bzr: ERROR: These branches have diverged.
<elfy> how do I fix that
<knome> elfy, bzr merge lp:ubuntu-manual-tests
<knome> elfy, then bzr commit -m "Merging main."
<knome> elfy, then bzr push
<elfy> k - thanks :)
<knome> np
<elfy> I'll just edit the testcase at the packages thing and it's done
<knome> :)
<elfy> ok - all done now
<elfy> I'll look at those links now :)
<knome> wow, a very strong dejavu of a situation where i had a dejavu
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<elfy> http://test.ubuntu-discourse.org/t/actually-xubuntu-is-the-best-thing-since-sliced-bread/643/24?u=elfy
<knome> didn't rowboatnick already prove that sliced bread isn't great? :P
<elfy> ha ha ha 
<ochosi> knome: not really a problem of xfwm, more likely that ubiquity doesn't set the correct wm-hints
<GridCube> pleia2: http://openetherpad.org/p/GHWvIcdokg
<GridCube> knome: ochosi ^ 
<GridCube> :)
<GridCube> can you review or comment pleas?
<GridCube> +e
<ochosi> GridCube: comment or edit as well?
<ochosi> (i'm mostly referring to typos and grammar)
<GridCube> oh do please correct bad grammers
<GridCube> also see if you agree or not or change what you might think its plainly wrong
<ochosi> ok cool
<GridCube> lderan: care to review it aswel?
<lderan> sure
<knome> duh, openetherpad is slow
<knome> GridCube, i had drafted http://pad.ubuntu.com/sG7L6CQInJ before
<lderan> waiting for it to reconnect :(
<knome> it doesn't load at all for me
<GridCube> its sudendly down :(
<GridCube> now its up again
<knome> is the ubuntu pad one too different?
<GridCube> i cant access that one
<knome> not for me... loading and loading
<knome> yeah, it's all dead
<GridCube> oh well
<GridCube> i cant never use the ubuntu ones tho
<knome> because?
<GridCube> i dont have access
<knome> okay, then let's get you some access
<knome> GridCube, join this team: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-etherpad
<knome> GridCube, i'll get somebody to approve once you've done that.
<GridCube> done
<knome> ta
<knome> GridCube, you're approved.
<GridCube> ok :)
<knome> GridCube, see? opening your mouth means things get done :P
<GridCube> P: it isnt the first time i've said i cant access the pad
<knome> then you should've asked more promptly
<knome> i haven't registered you saying that, because i woul have sorted that out
<knome> same with pleia2, she's an admin of that group and could've done that right away
<GridCube> :) 
<GridCube> well now its done so ill have to retype all of it
<GridCube> because obviously i didnt backed up anywhere
<knome> unless you can get openetherpad working
<GridCube> sure
<knome> is my draft of any help to you?
<GridCube> yes, but that covered the introduction only, XD i had it a whole lot longer
<lderan>  openetherpad is back up
<knome> ooh
<GridCube> :D
<GridCube> EXCELLENT
<knome> my thoughts on that
<knome> (i'll need to read that as i go, patience!)
<knome> i don't think we need to explain our users why we use deviantart
<knome> just say we decided to use that.
<ochosi> GridCube: sry, the pad disconnected halfway through my review-process, i'll get on to that later
<knome> you also do not need to be as verbose with the moderators things
<knome> just tell we have several moderators from the community to make the submissions smooth
<GridCube> ochosi: :D dont worry we now use the pad knome setted up earlier
<knome> you can also say that the guidelines are on the deviantart page
<knome> then we only need to maintain the guidelines there and not worry about people reading old versions, if we ever decide to change them
<knome> the how to submit section is quite good as it is
<knome> it's a good thing to tell there are other ways
<knome> and i'd move the "desktop showcase" part up with the introduction
<knome> GridCube, got all of that? :P
<GridCube> :) yes editing right now
<GridCube> knome: :) what do you think now?
<lderan> looks good to me
<lderan> maybe leave out the shunning of nonbelievers :P
<GridCube> mabbe
<ochosi> GridCube: the text looks fine now, just reviewed it now
<GridCube> :) perfect now its up to pleia2 to determinate if what im saying its correct / change whatever its to be changed or its not reasonable and post it P:
<knome> GridCube, editing the wording here and there
<GridCube> perfect
<knome> i will need to get back to it a bit later
<knome> at latest in an hour
<knome> bbiab
<pleia2> I am at my hotel now, but need food, I'll review once I am fed :)
<GridCube> ill back later
<knome> pleia2, if we're going to tell people they can submit images to mailing lists, i will force making more people moderators
<knome> pleia2, (don't worry, you're safe, i can't assign you twice)
<knome> pleia2, i'm rather thinking they could send it to the wiki...
<pleia2> yeah, not sure how I feel about the mailing list thing
<pleia2> it's a support list and I dont think we want to crowd it with that stuff
<pleia2> we could toss up a ml on launchpad for it
<pleia2> hm, not sure where we would put such a thing though
<pleia2> the trouble with the wiki is a lot of people have trouble signing up and into it, caching issues and slowness and you know
<knome> i don't want to create a new LP group.
<pleia2> I left a couple comments in the pad
<pleia2> I think we stick to dA for now
<pleia2> if people gripe about it not being foss, well, "we go where contributors are"
<knome> no, we tell them to volunteer and set up an alternative way to submit
<knome> (pretty much the same thing, but allows less re-whining)
<knome> so what about the declined submissions?
<pleia2> I left a comment, not really sure what we mean by "declined"
<pleia2> I don't really understand the workflow gridcube has in mind
<pleia2> the first week we'll get like a zillion submissions, week 5 not so many, we don't want to "reject" things the first week that we want to showcase on week 5
<knome> something that is not approved, eg. has copyright or nsfw issues
<pleia2> ok, gotcha
<pleia2> I think that's pretty well covered in the last paragraph
<knome> not really
<knome> we're telling that it's approved
<knome> if it's not, are we telling why?
<pleia2> ah
<knome> or just trash it
<pleia2> I think we can tell them why
<pleia2> (I say this, but of course I'm not the one doing the work :))
<knome> the last paragraph is babbling
<knome> seems useless
<knome> of course that's where we pick images
<pleia2> the one I just added?
<pleia2> well we don't want people to think "approved" means "showcased
<knome> we should also consider the use of screenshot/desktop terms
<knome> we're talking about screenshots, but the gallery is "desktop of the week"
<knome> not screenshot OTW
<pleia2> er, it
<pleia2> 's a screenshot of the desktop
<knome> yes, but it's a bit weird
<pleia2> maybe it's a language thing
<knome> maybe
<knome> edited the intro <p>, feels better to me now
<pleia2> I think it makes sense, but clarify if you need to :)
<pleia2> time for me to get dressed for dinner!
<knome> just changed some wording and referred to "pool" instead of "approved submisisons"
<knome> ooh ooh!
<knome> bon appetut
<knome> *it
<knome> i'm off now as well
<pleia2> http://myubuntublog.com/ubuntu-vs-xubuntu/
<knome> i might be around for a short time tomorrow morning (5-6UTCish), then i'm off all day until sunday noon UTC or so
<knome> if you want to publish the article, i'm ok with that
<knome> (i mean, meanwhile)
<knome> oki, i'm off now
<knome> have fun everybody
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-27
<bluesabre> http://www.smdavis.us/2013/07/27/mugshot-quick-and-easy-user-config/
<bluesabre> :)
<lderan> oo aweomse
<lderan> awesome*
<pleia2> knome: copying etherpad text over to the blog, I think we'll wait until Monday to publish though
<pleia2> (weekends tend to be lousy for social media)
<pleia2> knome: made updates to flyer doc
<pleia2> knome: I made this for you: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Marketing/Projects/XubuntuAt
<pleia2> (very sweet and thoughtful of me, I know)
<pleia2> GridCube: put a link to the wp draft in the etherpad
<pleia2> planning on publishing it monday (weekends are not good for social media stuff, everyone is outside playing or something)
<Unit193> We are?
<pleia2> yes
<GridCube> we are?
<GridCube> wp?
<Unit193> Wordpress.
<Unit193> Hrm, the Xubuntu seed is a bit odd.
<GridCube> pleia2, :) i like the wording
<pleia2> \o/
<GridCube> can we get a few images from our setups,  like yours or Unit193's or knome's to get a screen shot of the xubuntu-showcase page to add to the news post? so if we get the new repeated around there is some image for them to include
<Unit193> In order to make mine more "pretty", I'd have to killall conky. :P
<pleia2> GridCube: that would be good :)
 * pleia2 heads off to a wedding
<GridCube> pleia2, there are two basic folders on the group, one its "proposed" and one its "featured"
<GridCube> we accept all the proposed images, and only move the ones we use to featured
<GridCube> the ones that don't go to featured go to the month folder
<GridCube> i hope that makes sense
<skellat> Unit193: What about the seed is odd?
#xubuntu-devel 2013-07-28
<pleia2> jjfrv8: doh, finding major bugs while writing testcases
<jjfrv8> Don't know about 'major'.  It looks like that bug has been around forever.
<Unit193> Yep, I've hit it before too.
<Unit193> (Not the help one, nobody read help right? ;) )
<pleia2> well, it sounds like quite the broken experience
<Unit193> If you don't have ntpd, it can be a little less than helpful.
<knome> hallo
<knome> pleia2, ta
<knome> why am i typoing today?
<knome> GridCube, yes, i can send my screenshot at some point.
<GridCube> :) excellent
<knome> GridCube, i was also thinking that if we are really short on images, we can do "the different desktop of the week" -series with IRL desktops from the team
<GridCube> i would like to have a bunch so people who reads the news and goes to the site can see something and its more interesting
<knome> what news?
<GridCube> the xubuntu-showcase project news
<GridCube> wasnt pleia2 going to announce it tomorrow or later this week?
<knome> oh, right
<knome> bunch of desktops
<knome> yes, sure
<knome> i'll get you one tomorrow or before the news announcement tomorrow
<GridCube> :) great
<knome> my stomache is aching (three nights of 4/4/6 hours of sleep)
<elfy> GridCube: if you need desktop shots I can let you have one
<GridCube> im asking everyone XD
<GridCube> the more the better, having them in proposed doesnt mean having them in featured :9
<elfy> GridCube: do I have to create an account to do so ?
<knome> elfy, we can handle uploading for yo
<elfy> k
<GridCube> nah gimme an imgur link and ill upload it for you
<elfy> ok - png? size? dirty? clean? 
<knome> elfy, see the guidelines :P
<knome> elfy, basically, biggest possible resolution, safe for work, no copyrighted material
<elfy> guessed so :)
<elfy> knome: in a testcase how do you make something bold ? <whatgoeshere> 
<elfy> or anyone else who might know :)
<knome> elfy, either <b>bold</bold> or <strong>bold</strong> should work
<elfy> thanks boss :)
<knome> heh, np
<elfy> <b>bold</b> doesn't work then? I love logical things ... 
<knome> err, yes that
<knome> sorry.
<knome> of course you need to use the same closing tag
<elfy> try and remember who you're talking to :D
<knome> i can't, i'm tired
<knome> as i just said in #shimmer, 4/4/6 hours of sleep during last three nights
<elfy> ooh not good 
<pleia2> knome: go sleepies
<knome> NAH!
<knome> i need to watch some videos
<knome> we were wakespotting (wakeboarding with a rope pulling you around a track
<knome> )
<knome> watching videos from that now
 * pleia2 looks up "wakeboarding"
<knome> like waterskiing with a board
<pleia2> that seems like a lot of work
<knome> yu
<knome> p
<elfy> seems like something elfy would fail at - balance required... 
<knome> elfy, see -ot ;)
<elfy> only 9 testcase bugs with xubuntu tag not being worked on - 3 of those are more than xubuntu
<elfy> \o/
<knome> :)
<knome> ->
<elfy> saw - cya 
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-21
<bluesabre> Nosckaj, ochosi: pushed xfce4-power-manager to utopic-proposed, now we wait for that one
<bluesabre> Noskcaj, I might have missed if there was another comments, but for xfce4-session, there is a newer package in debian now (4.10.1-7), do you want to update your merge request to that version, or should I go ahead and do it as part of the merge?
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, I forgot i uploaded that. I'll merge now
<Noskcaj> New one pushed. The upower patch is slightly different, so we should have that checked after the upload
<ochosi> Noskcaj: did you test it?
<Noskcaj> corsac did in debian, but i will when i get home (at a friend place tonight, then cadets the next)
<ochosi> just asking cause you know, it's the session, if it's broken that means pretty much everything is kinda broken
<Noskcaj> of course.
<Noskcaj> I don't understand code, so hopefully patch checking will be part of the review.
<Noskcaj> But it if worked in debian it *should* do so here
<ochosi> right, still, testing things at least a little before uploading would be highly desirable though
<ochosi> if you haven't tested something, then prepare it in a PPA, ping me, i'll push it to the -staging PPA and we'll get people to test it if you can't
<Noskcaj> ok.
<ochosi> cause that's what we have those PPAs for ;)
<Noskcaj> I completely forgot about those. It's in noskcaj/build now
<ochosi> k, thanks
<ochosi> btw, if i'm not around you can also ping bluesabre 
<Noskcaj> cool
<Noskcaj> brb
<elfy> bluesabre: when you setting the next meeting, it being your turn to run it :)
<ochosi> folks, if any of you could please verify this sru: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings/+bug/1342065
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1342065 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "[SRU] xubuntu-default-settings 14.04.5" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<ochosi> doesn't matter whether you have a laptop or not, all you have to verify is that it correctly sets the default setting
<slickymasterWork> ochosi: in case you've forgotten http://xubuntu.org/?p=2548 and http://pad.ubuntu.com/AO7hLk0hFH are waiting you're review and approval
<slickymasterWork> s/you're/your
<ochosi> thanks slickymasterWork
<ochosi> i haven't forgotten, just haven't gotten round to it
<ochosi> but reminders always help ;)
<slickymasterWork> ok ;)
 * knome just poked the article a bit
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: that seems wrong:
<ochosi> To get these icons back, replace the Notification Area applet with the Indicator Plugin applet
<ochosi> those two are different things
<ochosi> the first is the systray, the others are the indicators
<ochosi> we always want/need both
<slickymasterWork> right. can you re-write that item ochosi
<slickymasterWork> you're so much more into it than me 
<knome> "more into it"
<knome> huhu
<ochosi> well actually i'm not sure anymore what i needed to do to get the indicators back
<ochosi> i think uninstall the -gtk2 packages and something else
<ochosi> i had hoped you had tested it and then written the paragraph
<slickymasterWork> key knome
<slickymasterWork> morning/afternoon
<knome> good afternoon slickymasterWork 
<slickymasterWork> I didn't ochosi
<slickymasterWork> ochosi, are you talking about this -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Roadmap/Specifications/Trusty/Gtk3Indicators?
<ochosi> no, not really
<ochosi> i'm talking about having the 12.04 stack installed and then upgrading and seeing no indicators
<ochosi> several things changed, the way the indicators are started etc
<ochosi> but i just want the practical steps
<slickymasterWork> hm hm. forestpiskie would be the one that actually made those steps when he was testing
<slickymasterWork> perhaps he could throw his input on it
<knome> pushed a new revision for the docs that introduces a favicon
<bluesabre> Xubuntu Community Meeting scheduled for July 29, 10:00 UTC
<bluesabre> elfy ^
<slickymasterWork> bluesabre: I won't be able to make it
<slickymasterWork> I'll be absent between July 28 and August 17
<slickymasterWork> ochosi: ^^
<slickymasterWork> off to lunch ->
<bluesabre> slickymasterWork, enjoy that nice long vacation :D
<bluesabre> ochosi, Noskcaj: http://packages.ubuntu.com/utopic/xfce4-power-manager
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: tested xfce4-session, all seems well, uploaded to utopic-proposed.
<elfy> slickymasterWork: looked at the pad - changed a few bits and left a note too
<Noskcaj> bluesabre, thanks
<bluesabre> I'll do the other merges when the packageset is updated
<bluesabre> but thanks for all the packaging :)
<ochosi> bluesabre: i'm wondering what we should do about xfwm4
<ochosi> i guess wait for another devel release
<ochosi> sucks a bit that the alt-tab dialog is still unreleased
<ochosi> btw, i also tried to ping ppl about the x-d-s sru again, no responses so far, so you might try -release too
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<bluesabre> so, what's in the queue for xfwm4?
<bluesabre> we can nag Nick
<ochosi> well, there are a few patches floating around that should be merged too
<ochosi> i'd have preferred a separate release just with the tabwin
<ochosi> but yeah, as time is progressing i'm considering we should merge more patches in
<bluesabre> any of us admins for that project? (I'm not)
<ochosi> i have push-rights, but i'm pretty sure i don't have admin rights
<bluesabre> log in here: https://releases.xfce.org/
<bluesabre> and see if its on your list
<ochosi> thing is if i start pushing patches, ppl might mistake me for a maintainer...
<ochosi> humm, i can actually do releases of xfwm4 and thunar too :>
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> yeah, I think push rights = release manager rights as well
<bluesabre> 12 days since display settings merge
<bluesabre> maybe I'll do a release on the 23rd for xfce4-settings
<bluesabre> I don't suppose you poked Nick about that?
<ochosi> i didn't, but i haven't received replies to my last few emails, so i didn't feel it would make sense
<ochosi> btw, is shimmer-themes also part of the xubuntu packageset?
<bluesabre> ochosi: yes
<bluesabre> sent the updated package along this morning
<bluesabre> I think its still sitting in utopic-proposed
 * bluesabre checks
<ochosi> mkay
<ochosi> we also oughta do something to lls
<ochosi> after the next xfpm release
<bluesabre> sitting in new https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/utopic/+queue
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> need to decide what changes need to be made for that
<ochosi> well for one, we should remove support for dpms and blank settings in case xfpm is installed
<bluesabre> *and running
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> well yeah, depends on whether we wanna make it runtime or buildtime
<bluesabre> cool, xfpm 1.3 in utopic, works like a dream
<ochosi> well 1.3.1 will be even dreamier ;)
<bluesabre> runtime is best
<bluesabre> python app
<bluesabre> :)
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> well with all the hackery that app contains, that last bit won't really hurt much :)
<ochosi> btw, cavalier said he's closing in on the dbus interface
<slickymasterWork> thanks foe that elfy. What about the indicators item, elfy? Since you went through all the testings during T cycle, do you have any suggestions on how to rewrite it?
<ochosi> so i guess we have to redo the configuration-applying part too
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> We should branch out based on which versions of each app are installed and running
<bluesabre> I might work with you on that later this week
<ochosi> yeah, or just skip older versions of light-locker
<ochosi> i mean we could simply say, lls version XY supports ll >=1.6
<knome> that's fair to say.
<bluesabre> ok, thats reasonable
<bluesabre> and easy to control with packaging
<ochosi> yup
<knome> and if late enough ll is shipped in utopic with the new lls, i don't see there being a problem for ubuntu people anyway
<knome> because people hardly can run debs from different releases and expect they work together with no problems
<knome> (some people do, but they are mad anyway, like Unit193)
<bluesabre> indeed
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> gotta run for now, bbl
<ochosi> hf in the woods, ttyl
<elfy> slickymasterWork: well re indicators - I either tested a vanilla trusty, or installed a vanilla precise or saucy and tested the upgrade path - given that it was more or less just me and maybe 1 or 2 others at each milestone doing so - I didn't even notice what was going on with indicators other than maybe some missing
<ochosi> i think if you do a clean upgrade they're all missing
<elfy> possibly 
<ochosi> which was actually my main goal of writing that faq, because that's a very obvious thing that needs fixing
<elfy> all I was testing was that the upgrade upgraded I'm afraid
<slickymasterWork> I don't really remember it now, I just made a couple of upgrade tests 
<slickymasterWork> yes, like me elfy 
<slickymasterWork> maybe brainwash could be of help with this issue as he also did a lot of testing on the indicators
<knome> is there a list of packages that are in the xubuntu packageset somewhere?
<slickymasterWork> are you referring to the metapackages in Trusty knome ?
<knome> no, not xubuntu-desktop and alike
<slickymasterWork> mhm, okay
<knome> i'm referring to the list of packages which bluesabre now has upload rights
<slickymasterWork> right
<knome> whether that was specific for sean or xubuntu, i think it would be useful to have it (linked) in the wiki
 * slickymasterWork agrees
 * elfy thinks that's a great idea as long as it's not him doing anything with the wiki
<knome> elfy, we can surely assign that to you since you love the wiki so much
<elfy> assign it to me ;)
<elfy> I'll make sure to take a little bit longer to do it than some did at getting a trello id :p
<slickymasterWork> ah ah ah
<bluesabre> give me a place to drop said packages, and I'll update it this evening
<bluesabre> s/packages/package names
<bluesabre> (since they are difficult to figure out, as far as I could tell)
<knome> bluesabre, you can poke them in my email
<ochosi> bluesabre: any chance you could confirm the x-d-s sru quickly?
<ochosi> with confirm i of course meant verify
<ochosi> !team | if any of you could please help by verifying this SRU, we'd need it *now
<ubottu> if any of you could please help by verifying this SRU, we'd need it *now: bluesabre, elfy, GridCube, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, mr_pouit, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, skellat, slickymaster, Unit193
<ochosi> *
<ochosi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xubuntu-default-settings/+bug/1342065
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1342065 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "[SRU] xubuntu-default-settings 14.04.5" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<GridCube> k testing
<ochosi> GridCube: you only need to enable -proposed in 14.04, then install the update of x-d-s and then create a new user
<ochosi> then check whether the setting described there has changed
<elfy> works here doing the new user and suspend
<ochosi> cool
<elfy> tagged -done
<ochosi> could you then please add a comment and set it to verification-done?
<ochosi> thanks!
<elfy> :)
<GridCube> enable trusty-proposed > update > create new user
<GridCube> right?
<ochosi> yup, that should be it, but it's already verified
<ochosi> one person to verify it is generally enough
<ochosi> you can still test it though
<ochosi> but the patch is only about changing a default setting, so not much that can go wrong there ;)
<GridCube> ok
<GridCube> :( i havent' been able to do much this cycle
<GridCube> and by much i mean anything
<ochosi> yeah, don't leave poor elfy alone with qa
<ochosi> bluesabre: okeydokey, got your x-d-s patch in at the last second...
<GridCube> its hard to do anything when i don't understand two thirds of whats going on
<ochosi> following elfy's instructions should do :p
<ochosi> gotta go, dinner-time
<elfy> GridCube: you don't actually think I know what's going on do you?
<GridCube> better than i do
<elfy> marginal at best 
<elfy> ochosi: sru completed and released to -updates
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> one less headache for 14.04.1
<elfy> :)
<elfy> can't even remember when it releases 
<ochosi> pretty soon, its freeze was today
<elfy> just been reading -release 
<elfy> thursday perhaps - 24th does sound familiar
<ochosi> that was the main reason for my nervous pinging before
<elfy> I see that now after reading -release :p
<Unit193> knome: Nah, I generally rebuild (may grab the whole stack), I don't really just snag a package directly. ;)
<knome> mmh.
<Unit193> And, nice favicon.
<knome> yep
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-22
<ochosi> morning everyone
<elfy> morning ochosi 
<ochosi> good good, busy bee, but good
<slickymasterWork> ochosi, in a default 12.04 this is what I got at startup, running tail .config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-panel.xml -> http://paste.ubuntu.com/7835132/
<slickymasterWork> ochosi: do you think that it could be some missing?
 * skellat goes back to bed as he realizes the meeting is **next week**
<slickymasterWork> ochosi: also out of dpkg -l indicator -* ->http://paste.ubuntu.com/7835170/
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: well from my memory i'd say you have to remove the -gtk2 indicators
<ochosi> have you tried anything yet to get them running again in 14.04?
<slickymasterWork> ochosi: still updating the box to then be able to run the upgrade
<slickymasterWork> upgrading now
<ochosi> okeydokey
<ochosi> just document every step until you get the indicators back :)
<ochosi> here's a guess:
<ochosi> 1) sudo apt-get remove indicator-*-gtk2
<ochosi> 2) remove the autostart entries for individual indicators from settings-manager > sessions and startup > application autostart
<ochosi> 3) reboot the machine
<ochosi> 4) hope for the best
<ochosi> :)
<slickymasterWork> lol, I'll make sure that point 4 will be present in the list ;)
<ochosi> bbabl
<ochosi> morning bluesabre 
<bluesabre> morning ochosi
<bluesabre> going through SRU bugs for menulibre to bug you guys to test them ;)
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> i managed to snuck in x-d-s at the very last minute to 14.04.1
<ochosi> (well, without a respin, that is)
<ochosi> today i need to focus on work more
<bluesabre> good job
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> ok, so if anybody is around and would like to do some SRU verification for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/menulibre/+bug/1323405 , that would be awesome ;)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1323405 in menulibre (Ubuntu Trusty) "[SRU] Please backport menulibre-2.0.4 to trusty" [High,Fix committed]
<bluesabre> The remaining bugs need verification in trusty-proposed:
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/menulibre/+bug/1313276
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1313276 in MenuLibre "Crash of Menulibre and Alacarte due to conflict in xfce-applications.menu" [Critical,Fix released]
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/menulibre/+bug/1306999
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1306999 in menulibre (Ubuntu) "When search results are shown, saving modifications breaks the menu structure" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/menulibre/+bug/1318209
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1318209 in MenuLibre "Add launchers to empty categories" [High,Fix released]
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/menulibre/+bug/1313586
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1313586 in MenuLibre "move items up & down, can't save, undo/redo, revert" [Medium,Fix released]
<bluesabre> https://bugs.launchpad.net/menulibre/+bug/1214815
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1214815 in MenuLibre "Menulibre doesn't escape Exec key properly where spaces in " [Low,Fix released]
<bluesabre> Let me know if you need any help or more information, several of these are pretty straight-forward and quick to complete
<slickymasterWork> ochosi: after upgrading the output of tail .config/xfce4/xfconf/xfce-perchannel-xml/xfce4-panel.xml -> http://paste.ubuntu.com/7836249/
<slickymasterWork> and the output of dpkg -l indicator-* ->http://paste.ubuntu.com/7836239/
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> so i guess you're not seeing any indicators now, right?
<slickymasterWork> no, I'm seeing indicators
<ochosi> oh, you are?
<ochosi> so they're simply working?
<ochosi> that's a nice surprise
<slickymasterWork> bluetooth, sound and network
<ochosi> i guess the problem here was that i wasn't doing an LTS->LTS upgrade then (had 13.04, went to 13.10)
<ochosi> bluetooth should be a trayicon i think
<slickymasterWork> re the power one I'm not able to say anything as this is on a desktop
<slickymasterWork> no, it's not a tray icon
<ochosi> right
<slickymasterWork> if I remoce indicator plugin from the panel it also disappears 
<slickymasterWork> *remove
<ochosi> fun, for me the bluetooth thingy is a trayicon :)
<slickymasterWork> over here it's in the indicator plugin 
<ochosi> right, so if everything works out of the box with indicators, there's no need for that paragraph
<slickymasterWork> so, with these results what to do with that item in the list 
<ochosi> other than maybe saying that ppl can install indicator-power and indicator-messages
<slickymasterWork> lol, I'll remove it then
<ochosi> or wait, that got pulled for you automatically too?
<slickymasterWork> re indicator power it's ticked in sessions and starup, but since this is on a laptop won't get showed in the panel 
<ochosi> sure, but indicator-power wasn't installed in 12.04 by default
<ochosi> that's what i meant
<slickymasterWork> give a second and I'll conform that
<slickymasterWork> *confirm
<slickymasterWork> exactly ochosi, it wasn't
<slickymasterWork> so, I'm thinking in rewritting that paragraph just pointing out that ppl can install indicator-power and indicator-messages
<ochosi> well if it got pulled in automatically, then everything is fine
<slickymasterWork> what do you think?
<ochosi> no need to point out anything in that case
<slickymasterWork> it did in this setup
<ochosi> it was a clean 12.04 install, right?
<slickymasterWork> yes, 12.04.4
<slickymasterWork> the image is from 11-04-2014
<ochosi> ok, then skip the indicators paragraph as a whole
<ochosi> if it works, why mention it
<slickymasterWork> sorry ochosi, got a call from my boss
<slickymasterWork> :P
<ochosi> no worries
<kean> Hi everyone. Is there a place where I can ask about problems I'm experiencing when trying to build a patched package for the first time?
<ochosi> kean: is the package directly related to xubuntu/xfce?
<kean> ochosi: Yes, at least as far as I can tell. You may remember I was here last week regarding a bug in light-locker-settings I'd like to fix, but haven't had time to do much since.
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> so you'er building a light-locker-settings package?
<ochosi> you're
<ochosi> kean: ^
<kean> ochosi: I'm trying to. This is what I did so far, following the Ubuntu bug fixing guideline: bzr branch lp:light-locker-settings, followed by a simple change in light-locker-settings.py and bzr bd -- -S -us -uc
<ochosi> humm, i wouldnt do that tbh
<ochosi> 1) you can simply run lls, because it's python
<ochosi> so not sure why you need the package
<ochosi> 2) i'd go for the easy variant if i really had to build a package, which is the one described e.g. here: http://pascal.nextrem.ch/2010/05/06/build-ubuntudebian-packages-from-source-and-apply-a-patch/
<kean> dpkg-source then tells me: "aborting due to unexpected upstream changes", listing not only the file I changed, but numerous others as well.
<ochosi> (couldnt find the source in the ubuntu wiki for that, but it's pretty much the same)
<ochosi> sry, i'm not really into packaging, can't help you much with that
<kean> ochosi: I wanted to build a package because I have no experience with that, and I wanted to make sure that my patch doesn't somehow break packaging, unlikely as it may seem.
<kean> dpkg-buildpackage gives me the same error when I try to run it on the bzr branch. It works with what apt-get source gets me, though
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> i'd try to just verify that the fix works in a first step and attach it to a bugreport
<ochosi> if it works for everyone we can still figure out the packaging
 * ochosi forgot what the bug was actually
<kean> It's LP #1306917: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/light-locker-settings/+bug/1306917
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1306917 in light-locker-settings (Ubuntu) "light-locker: screen always automatically locked" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ochosi> ah right
<kean> ochosi: What's the preferred way of suggesting a patch? Upload a plain patch file, or make a branch and propose a merge?
<ochosi> the latter
<kean> So it's okay if I just change light-locker-settings.py and not any of the debian/ files?
<ochosi> yeah, let's start with that
<kean> Okay, please give me a few minutes.
<ochosi> sorry, gotta go
<ochosi> kean: feel free to also bug bluesabre about this if he's around and i'm not
<ochosi> but yeah, just start with the MR and we'll review
<ochosi> mmm, 14.04.1 is spinning up (lubuntu is the first it seems)
<ochosi> bbl
<kean> ochosi: Thanks for your help. I created a merge proposal now. Please let me know what you think of it. I'm happy to receive guidance, especially since I'm new to launchpad and (x)ubuntu development.
<kean> I'm offline for a few minutes.
<kean> Back again.
<slickymasterWork> ok ochosi, currently waiting for review: http://xubuntu.org/?p=2548 and http://xubuntu.org/?p=2581
<elfy> bluesabre: after the day has calmed down a bit for me I'll try and verify those SRU bugs - I'll ping team with those I don't manage to crack 
<elfy> ochosi: unless it's too late to get them for .1 ?
<bluesabre> elfy, thanks
<elfy> bluesabre: try and ping me with those if you remember - I only know cos slickymasterWork told me eslewhere :)
 * elfy just got in from work
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> elfy: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7837132/
<elfy> yep - caught up now :)
<elfy> got the bugs in a window 
<bluesabre> great, thanks
<bluesabre> let me know if you have any questions
<elfy> I will - it'll be a couple of hours I guess
<kean> bluesabre: I've been trying to build a source package for light-locker-settings from the bazaar branch, but bzr bd -S fails with dpkg-source saying "aborting due to unexpected upstream changes". Could you help me, a newcomer, learn why this is and how to resolve it?
<bluesabre> to build the source package, you'll need to create a quilt patch
<bluesabre> one sec, and I'll help you through that
<kean> Thanks. :)
<bluesabre> kean: have a look at this to set up your quilt env, https://wiki.debian.org/UsingQuilt
<kean> From what I learned so far, I think I understand that I'd need to create a quilt patch if I wanted to introduce a debian/ubuntu specific change. In this case, as a first step, I tried to build the latest launchpad branch without any modifications of my own. Shouldn't it build finde then?
<kean> bluesabre: Did that, thanks. It just occured to me that maybe branching lp:light-locker-settings might be where I went wrong. I assume lp:lls is what could be considered "upstream", while the ubuntu packages should be built from ubuntu:lls?
<bluesabre> kean: that's correct.
<bluesabre> and we already have a single patch in there, so you just need to
<bluesabre> 1. pull
<bluesabre> 2. quilt push -a
<kean> bluesabre: I see. Please excuse my confusion, but why does lp:lss have a debian/ directory then?
<bluesabre> It's native packaging since lls is native to ubuntu
<kean> What's the distinction between lp:lss and ubuntu:lls then?
<bluesabre> ubuntu:lls is the current release in ubuntu
<bluesabre> lp:lls is upstream trunk
<bluesabre> at times, they may be identical, but lp:lls is almost always more up-to-date
<kean> bluesabre: Thanks, that makes more sense now. So, I submitted a merge proposal to lp:lls earlier, where I changed only light-locker-settings.py, and none of the debian/ files. Is that the correct way in this case?
<bluesabre> yes, we can merge that from there to fix upstream
 * bluesabre needs to fix some bugs with lls soon
<bluesabre> ... and several other things
<kean> I hope I don't overstrain your patience, but what I wanted to ask was whether this would be considered the ideal way of dealing with this situation, or whether I should have done things differently, or additionally. I'm asking because I'm new to this and would like to contribute more to (x)ubuntu, and do so in an effective manner.
<bluesabre> Yeah, offering a patch in that manner is generally preferred.
<bluesabre> If you go to the top of the bug report, you can click "Link a related branch" to make it more visible as well (I think that should be visible for everyone)
<bluesabre> With most of our projects (and a lot of xfce even), there are only a few (1-2, 3 if lucky) people maintaining them, so patches might sit around for a while
<bluesabre> But offering merge requests like that make sure we do find them, when we do get around to them :)
<kean> Okay, linked the branch now. Thanks for letting me known, I wouldn't have realized there was that possibility otherwise. I just assumed the package maintainers would be notified by mail or something as soon as a merge proposal is created.
<bluesabre> Thanks!
<bluesabre> Also, we have lots of different areas where we need contributing, in case you're interested -- http://xubuntu.org/contribute/ outlines our focus areas
<kean> Thank you for guiding me through this. :)
<bluesabre> np
<kean> I surely am interested, thanks for that link. However, I planned on seeing whether I could help with two other bugs that affect me directly.
<bluesabre> Sure thing, that's always the best place to start
<kean> Oh, one more thing: in many bug reports I see people linking PPA packages in order to see whether affected people have their issues resolved by a patch. Is that usually done by the one who proposes a patch, i.e. me, or by the maintainers?
<bluesabre> Usually by the maintainers.  We'll roll in the proposed fix to see if that resolves the issue, and then verify with others
<kean> I see, thanks again.
<kean> I just tried whether I could change the bug status in lls from New to Confirmed, and to my surprise it seemed to work. Sorry if that disturbed you, really didn't expect it to go through. I expected that only people with appropriate permissions could do that. Is anyone able to change the bug statuses by default?
<ochosi> 14.04.1 xubuntu build has been added it seems
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-23
 * skellat just replied to an e-mail that is possibly graphics stack related that came from Jeff Hanson of Project Community Computers if somebody else could also chime in...
<jjfrv8> bluesabre, forestpiskie, I think the only Menulibre SRU item left to be verified is bug 1313276.
<ubottu> bug 1313276 in MenuLibre "Crash of Menulibre and Alacarte due to conflict in xfce-applications.menu" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1313276
<bluesabre> elfy, jjfrv8: thanks, did verification on remaining issue.
<bluesabre> skellat: will send a follow-up email in the morning
<ochosi> bluesabre: woo nice, all bugreports verified! (those were quite a lot)
<Unit193> ochosi: Think either dropping the mention of compiz and recommending them to turn off the compositor may be good too.
<ochosi> Unit193: feel free to reply ;)
<ochosi> for me, turning the compositor off doesn't help at all
<Unit193> Ah, "helps" with another few issues I have.
<ochosi> also, i "heard" compiz helps
<ochosi> haven't had the energy in a while to investigate this issue at all
<elfy> bluesabre: thanks for letting me know - the evening went bad and I got nowhere fast
<elfy> if anyone manages to get time to do an install test for trusty daily today they are at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/trusty/daily-live/20140722.2/
<elfy> the tracker is fubar atm it seems
<ochosi> knome: how much money is currently left in our "project fund" (the one you're currently holding from the magazine articles)
<knome> about $200
<knome> wait
<knome> about $300
<knome> :P
<ochosi> did some of it go to pleia2 already for some marketing?
<knome> yeah, i've sent her some money for flyer printing
<ochosi> ah nice
<ochosi> so theoretically we have about 300$ we could spend on bug bounties if we decided to
<knome> so it is about $300.
<ochosi> or were there other things we wanted to do with that money?
<knome> mhm
<knome> well,
<ochosi> (frankly, i'd prefer bug bounties to t-shirts)
<knome> there was discussion about "t-shirts for all team members"
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> right, other than that there wasn't anything, right?
<knome> also, "use the money for printing material to be given away at conferences"
<ochosi> ok
<knome> which i think is fair
<ochosi> then it's fine to discuss it at the meeting next week
<knome> if people actually go to conferences with possible target audience
<knome> and do spread out the stuff
<knome> and not keep it in their closets
<ochosi> yeah, still, the actual impact is generally difficult to measure with flyers
<ochosi> and yeah, even more so when they remain in closets :p
<knome> of course
<knome> i'm not opposed to using them for bug bounties
<knome> but i do think that would have to be agreed on case-by-case basis
<knome> ...which you probably agree with
<ochosi> yeah, i guess we can discuss the potential bugs to spend the money on
<ochosi> however, that might be a long and difficult discussion, everyone has different preferences
<knome> that sounds like going ass front in the tree
<elfy> and the money will inevitably stay unspent
<knome> just discuss about bountying WHEN somebody suggests something
<knome> also,
<knome> one possible way to spread the money and not be too biased
<ochosi> actually we started compiling a list of critical bugs for xfce 4.12
<ochosi> those could be a rather relevant target
<knome> is to offer first a "half" of the bounty for a bug and ask other people to chime in and give the rest
<knome> that would already lower the limit for other people to help financially
<ochosi> yeah, it certainly would be meant as a kickstarter to get the bug bounty programme going
<ochosi> as it's not really looking that xubuntu will continue to have funds
<knome> but of course it's hard to measure "half" if we need to specify the bounty amount first... ;)
<knome> i think that it might be possible
<knome> if the team wanted
<knome> but that would mean more of our time would go into that
<ochosi> well as i said, there is a list of release-critical bugs that i'd prefer to focus on first
<ochosi> for xubuntu at this point the release of 4.12 is the thing we most direly need (to be able to stop shipping development releases)
<knome> sure
<knome> for starters,
<knome> who would argue that's not a good focus?
<knome> re: discussion about different preferences
<ochosi> hopefully nobody
<knome> where do you have the lsit?
<knome> *list
<knome> also, what are you going to do with the roadmap page in the wiki?
<ochosi> https://wiki.xfce.org/releng/4.12/roadmap/critical-bugs
<knome> and are we going to use status.ubuntu.com tracking?
<ochosi> use status.ubuntu.com for what?
<knome> for tracking progress on blueprints
<ochosi> right, you're mixing topics a bit now
<knome> a bit.
<ochosi> haven't given that much thought tbh
<knome> we're halfway to the cycle, so maybe next one
<ochosi> for now it seems we're trying trello for that
<ochosi> don't see too much benefit in doing everything twice
<knome> i thought trello was proposed as an additional service to the tracking, but okay
<ochosi> yeah, it was
<ochosi> frankly, i don't even know how to set up status.ubuntu for utopic :]
<olbi> hi guys, last time I have asked, why there isn't any deb packages with polish translation from Xfce's git, which was big update on June this year. knome said that for now there isn't possible to do this, which is quite joke for me and other translators from polish team, which want some explanation about this situation
<knome> olbi, i gave you an explanation.
<knome> ochosi, get the blueprints approved for utopic, and then make sure there is an umbrella blueprint that is named correctly
<olbi> yes, but some ppl from polish team are very angry about this, cause this wasnt random update, this was very big update and fixed some annoying strings
<knome> olbi, the angry people should use their time to fix things then, not whine about it
<knome> olbi, there is no special treatment for "big" translation updates
<knome> as i told you before, translation updates happen when package updates happen
<olbi> so this is some jokes :/
<knome> olbi, shipping a translation from a different version that the package itself is a joke.
<knome> for now, xfce translations are shipped per package
<ochosi> i guess the point here is that it's not xubuntu's fault that there are no new translations, but the problem is upstream at xfce for not releasing new versions
<knome> if your angry friends want to get the polish translations in quicker, they can change the packaging to package-independent language pack packages
<olbi> ...
<knome> ^ or what ochosi said, help fix the bugs in xfce to help new versions get released
<knome> olbi, or you can create a PPA with custom packaging with updated polish translations.
<olbi> hmm :P
<knome> there you have an explanation (or two), and three ideas what you can do to help your own cause
<knome> now i please would ask you to stop asking when new polish translations land in, unless you have started working with either helping xfce release, or reorganize the translations in the ubuntu archive
<knome> it's just wasting our, and your time.
<knome> ochosi, to get back in the original issue at hand... what about the roadmap page?
<knome> ochosi, it's a bit meh as it is now, would be better if it had even the deadline days mentioned, and some kind of overview (and links to blueprints and trello)
<knome> ochosi, and i know your next comment is "you can do it" ;)
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> as you already know it, i don't even have to say it anymore
<knome> sure, but i've done it for many cycles already, and you've picked the ripe fruit from nice organization, so it's time for somebody else to do it :]
<ochosi> hah
 * ochosi asks the kubuntu developers
<knome> sure, whatever :)
<ochosi> so kubuntu only use trello
<ochosi> knome: we already have that umbrella blueprint btw
<ochosi> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-u-flavor-xubuntu
<ochosi> not sure what needs to be done for that to show on status.ubuntu though
<knome> ochosi, as i told you: get the rest of the blueprints approved for utopic
<knome> you'll have to poke a release team member to get that done
<knome> sending a list of the blueprints you want approved to the release team mailing list works.
<knome> i've done a really brief overhaul for the roadmap page now.
<ochosi> any benefit other than having the blueprints showing up on status.ubuntu?
<knome> not really
<knome> well except when you search blueprints
<knome> you can see them being targeted at utopic
<knome> so it's easier to catch all utopic-related xubuntu blueprints later
<knome> if you forgot what we did
<knome> you might need to get the umbrella blueprint approved as well
<knome> at least it doesn't matter if it is..
<ochosi> yeah, but frankly with the few little things we're doing this cycle, i don't see much practical benefit (if you excuse my bluntness here)
<knome> it's your choice
<knome> sending the mail takes a minute though
<knome> and then you have it in the tracker
<ochosi> i know this is your organisational heritage, and i saw some benefit of it during the 14.04 cycle (although blueprints weren't really kept very up-to-date)
<ochosi> theoretically everything does only take a minute
<knome> well that's the other problem.
<knome> it's no use doing it if people aren't updating the blueprints
<knome> which i doubt they are now that we are using trello
<knome> which is why i wasn't so keen on it
<knome> sure, it's probably faster and there are some benefits to it, but it doesn't give the same nice overview of things happening
<knome> in real time, versus bugs as well as work items
<ochosi> i don't mind switching back to blueprints-only the next cycle if trello doesn't work well enough for us
<knome> i'm not saying we should stop using trello
<knome> what i'm saying is that the premise that was there when it was proposed to use trello was different from happened actually
<knome> which is fine, but then don't say we're doing blueprints, and don't do them
<ochosi> well basically you're saying i didn't take care of the blueprints anymore (which is true)
<knome> it's not you, it's the whole team and the commitment to whatever the team agreed on
<knome> i'm not blaming anybody, nor do i felt hurt
<knome> just saying that things didn't go as expected
<ochosi> yeah, totally agree
<knome> people who are close to the team can pick up changes, but people who aren't, like new contributors, can be a bit baffled by it all
<ochosi> that would matter more if there actually were new contributors :p
<ochosi> but yeah, i know and understand what you're talking about
<knome> how do you know if there would be, but they looked at the roadmap and then went away?
<ochosi> well frankly only looking and not asking...
<knome> yep: pick your tool and then use it...
<knome> status.ubuntu.com is mostly abandoned by many teams anyway
<knome> so it doesn't really do justice to ask any team that doesn't use it if they like it or not
<knome> i also agree it's less useful now that many teams do not use it
 * ochosi added it to the meeting agenda
<ochosi> better to discuss it with everyone than just the two of us (who agree anyway)
<knome> ftr, i have no idea if i can make the meeting or not... :)
<knome> it'd be probably better to reassess it at the end of the cycle
<ochosi> you already made your point and as i agree, it doesn't matter :)
<ochosi> yeah, it has to be reassessed at the end, but i'd also like to discuss how it's going now
<knome> i don't know who it helps if we mull over it now, since people can always say they don't know how trello worked for "a whole cycle" ;)
<knome> sure
<knome> no offense meant and nothing personal here either as you very well know
<ochosi> yeah, sure
<knome> elfy, if i were to boot one (or two) .1 ISO tests, what would you prefer me doing?
<knome> can't promise anything, but i might have time in the evening
<knome> one more thought about progress tracking:
<knome> whatever software it was we used to track the process, it would be beneficial for everybody in and out the team to regularly (say weekly, or in every meeting) make sure that the tracking process up-to-date, and have somebody announce and make sure people do it's actually done
<elfy> knome: 32 bit are lacking love
<knome> elfy, oki, i'll try to have a look
<knome> now bbl ->
<pleia2> re: money, I was also thinking we could add a section to our website about donations - we can't accept donations directly, but if we had bug bounties we could accept small amounts to fund that, and suggest upstream projects to donate to
<pleia2> I get asked about this once or twice a month via social media
<pleia2> maybe even use gittip or something for folks on the team who'd like it
<ochosi> pleia2: i have been working towards this recently: https://www.bountysource.com/teams/xfce
<ochosi> there will be a formal annoucement, i see this as our best shot to accept donations that directly benefit xubuntu without a hassle
<pleia2> great
<ochosi> so yeah, i plan to announce it before the next meeting, so we'll definitely get a chance to realistically discuss it then
 * pleia2 nods
<ochosi> will you be able to make it to the meeting?
<pleia2> no, it's at 3am :(
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> well, thank bluesabre :}
<pleia2> it was ok when I was in germany :)
<pleia2> I'll also be recovering from surgery (happens tomorrow!) so waking up in the middle of the night is not on my agenda for the next couple weeks
<ochosi> oh wow
 * ochosi keeps his fingers crossed so that everything goes well for pleia2 e
<pleia2> thanks :)
<ochosi> i'll also send the announcement mail to the xubuntu devel ml, so if you wanna post your opinion on it there before the meeting, that would also work fine
<ochosi> but no stress, take your time after the surgery...
<pleia2> I'll see what I can do :)
<ochosi> bbl
<elfy> bah 
<elfy> bluesabre: what's this about? "[17:39] <infinity> bluesabre: If you guys are committed to a rapid testing turnaround, we can look at squeezing a fix in for you.  Looks like menulibre is only on xubuntu images."
<elfy> if it's about getting a new menulibre in and then respun and then a whole batch of install tests being run - good luck testing the image
<bluesabre> hey elfy
<bluesabre> yeah, that's related to getting the fixed menulibre in for a respin
<bluesabre> as the QA lead, what's your take?  It fixes a pretty annoying bug for the image
<elfy> so - all the image tests I did today in between working were completely pointless
<elfy> is my take :|
<bluesabre> :(
<bluesabre> I would help with image testing
<elfy> I'd rather have the fixed package in the image of course
<bluesabre> Yeah
<bluesabre> did they just add the milestone to the tracker today?
<elfy> yesterday
<elfy> bluesabre: tell infinity to go ahead
<bluesabre> but yeah, I can commit to testing
<bluesabre> ok
<bluesabre> this would have been in sooner, but the bug report that I opened a month ago took its time getting to -proposed
<elfy> as long as we get at least a couple of 32 and 64 bit tests done I'd be *happy*
<elfy> knome: hold fire on testing till the image is rebuilt please :)
<elfy> bluesabre: yep - stuff happens :)
<slickymasterWork> elfy, I'll also do a 32 bit image test tomorrow
<elfy> ta
<elfy> bluesabre: I know this isn't your fault - I've not been too on the ball either tbh the last 5 or 6 weeks
<elfy> I'll concentrate on getting image install tests done on vm's 
<elfy> I'll be ignoring live session and post install tests though
<bluesabre> ok
<elfy> I'll make sure to makr in progress things as such too
<bluesabre> I'll do live and post since you're doing the others
<elfy> ok - thanks :)
<elfy> shimmer-themes upgrading error "E: Internal Error, No file name for shimmer-themes:amd64"
<bluesabre> weird, haven't touched that package in a file, did apt crap out?
<bluesabre> oh wait, yeah, that seems like something with apt
<elfy> broken
<bluesabre> shimmer-themes is arch independent
<Unit193> bluesabre: You recently created seperate packages.
<bluesabre> Unit193: they are still in utopic new
<elfy> shimmer-themes (1.7.3-0ubuntu2) utopic; urgency=medium
<elfy>   * Separated themes into unique packages so individual themes can be installed or removed.
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> oh hey
<bluesabre> when did they get accepted
<elfy> some time today I assume - it wasn't there this morning when I upgraded :D
<bluesabre> I'll look into that
<elfy> of course I did do a dsit-upgrade this evening to get shimmer
 * bluesabre updates utopic vm
<elfy> fixed it 
 * bluesabre also downloads new 14.04.1 build
 * Unit193 downloaded, but not sure he'll get a chance.
<elfy> got 64 bit in 30seconds
<Unit193> cdimage never gives me full speed. :/
<elfy> well zsync got a little bit in that time :p
<elfy> Unit193: same - it's about ~1200kBps
<elfy> working on the 64 bit install tests now
<Unit193> FWIW, systemd 208 in proposed.
 * elfy stopped running it a while ago
<elfy> couldn't decide what was causing the issue here - turned out to be nouveau, not got around to using systemd again
<bluesabre> ok, so it seems apt/dpkg dislike when a package becomes a metapackage... apt-get -f install seems to fix the issue though
<bluesabre> I'll read more into that
<elfy> 32 bit 
<elfy> wb ochosi 
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<ochosi> hey guys
<ochosi> hope i didn't miss too much :)
<ochosi> remote host went down again
<elfy> you missed bluesabre getting infinity to respin the image and all my previous test results being lost 
<elfy> :p
<bluesabre> yeah!
<bluesabre> keeping elfy busy
<elfy> so tomorrow one of the 3 of us will need to mark the tracker released
<ochosi> huhu
<ochosi> how come?
<elfy> no idea what time I'll be home from work at day end - but I can check lunchtime and do it if all is well
<ochosi> menulibre?
<elfy> yea 
<ochosi> and the greeter?
<bluesabre> no greeter
<ochosi> :/
<elfy> menulibre only affects us ochosi 
<elfy> so it was up to us if we wanted to retest
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> makes sense
<ochosi> forgot that others use the greeter too
<bluesabre> downloading i386 now'
 * elfy is testing 32 bit now 
<elfy> same - leaving live session and post install
<Unit193> bluesabre: Did you not do proper breaks/replaces?
<bluesabre> shimmer-themes -> shimmer-themes... do I need to add the breaks to each of the newly created theme packages?
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/utopic/+queue?queue_state=3&queue_text=shimmer-themes
<Unit193> https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html#s-conflicts
<bluesabre> I see
<Unit193> (Don't think that's exactly the section I was aiming for, but meh.)
<Unit193> Generally, just breaks/replaces.
<bluesabre> ok
<knome> elfy, haha yeah no problem, i'm only back now and my testing is not going to happen today :|
<knome> otoh, i might be able to squeeze some time for testing tomorrow, especially now that we've had respins..
<elfy> :)
<elfy> so - just post install on 32 bit to get at least one of each done left now
<elfy> anything else is a bonus
<knome> yep, but as we know, bonuses aren't bad ;)
<elfy> yep
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> 5/5 on 32 and 64bit \o/
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-24
<Unit193> !info xubuntu-core utopic
<Unit193> forestpiskie: We want to figure that out about now?
<ubottu> xubuntu-core (source: xubuntu-meta): Xubuntu core system. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.181 (utopic), package size 3 kB, installed size 44 kB
<skellat> Could somebody set LP Bug 1347705 to Triaged/Low for me?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1347705 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "Split theme packages do not properly declare conflicts" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347705
<skellat> Pretty please?
 * skellat heads off to bed
<Unit193> bluesabre: ^.  And, stuff correctly added to the packageset?  Do you think xfdash and thunar-dropbox could be added as well since they are Xfce/Xubuntu geared and we're set to maintain them?  I'd ask about skippy, but that seems less geared towards Xfce, but may be worth a shot as well.  What do you think? :)
<Unit193> Hmm.  The idea to ship a default config file for compton, but not compton itself was put forth, whatever happened to that idea?
<elfy> bluesabre: so I got spammed by apport and system crashes for these themes this morning too :p
<Unit193> :D
<Unit193> Bug was just linked.
<elfy> all of them? or just one :D
<Unit193> LP 1347705
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1347705 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "Split theme packages do not properly declare conflicts" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347705
<elfy> yea - and 1 for each of the themes and at the moment only 1 dupe for each of the themes ... 
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://code.launchpad.net/~smd-seandavis/ubuntu/trusty/menulibre/bug-1323405/+merge/224586 is no longer needed and can be removed. \o/
<elfy> ochosi bluesabre -release will I think what release notes from us for the .1 
<elfy> I've shamelessly copy pasted the 14.04 release notes to a new post with a subtly different title
<elfy> added a place for the sru bug fixes to live
<elfy> but won't be doing anymore to it this morning
<ochosi> elfy: i'll be back a bit later and can take a look, pls link me to what you've done so far
<ochosi> (sorry, i'm out the door with one foot already, but if i have it in my backlog i at least won't forget...)
<elfy> http://xubuntu.org/wp-admin/post.php?post=2586&action=edit
<elfy> there it is 
<ochosi> ty, bbl
<elfy> I'll check in -release at lunchtime to see if they're shouting yet
<elfy> yep - cya
<Unit193> ochosi: As usual: https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/ubuntu/xfce/+packages?field.name_filter=xfdash
<elfy> Unit193: bah - missed the piskie ping re -core - I'll try and catch you later 
<Unit193> Sure, no problem.
<ochosi> knome: woah, what's up with the css here: http://xubuntu.org/?p=2586&preview=true (look at the grey bubble for the tahr)
<ochosi> elfy: so generally that looks good, i guess we need to add in the sru bugs now
<ochosi> folks, i updated the release notes with the 3 srus and the docs bug, anything else i might've missed?
<ochosi> http://xubuntu.org/?p=2586
<ochosi> elfy: i removed the xfpm bug that was part of the known issues as it was a duplicate of the black screen bug that is now fixed
<ochosi> gotta run again, bbiab
<bluesabre> hey guys, I've got to run and won't be around most of today
<bluesabre> Unit193, elfy: I'll fix the themes when I get back tonight... but they should be co-installable, they just don't upgrade cleanly (apt-get -f install fixes)
<bluesabre> Unit193: I think packageset is generated by a script, and only includes the packages that we ship
<bluesabre> I can request their addition though, so that I can upload them
<bluesabre> But yes, packageset is updated
<bluesabre> ok, gotta run
<bluesabre> bbl
<Unit193> 1. Yeah, just needs to breaks/replaces => $VERSION or the like.  2. Might be handy, but yeah up to you and may just leave it automatic.
<Unit193> Bye.
<slickymasterWork> skellat, I've set LP Bug 1347705 to Triaged/Low as you requested
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1347705 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "Split theme packages do not properly declare conflicts" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347705
<knome> ochosi, dunno ;)
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/team-calendar/
<ochosi> that's handy
<knome> i'm just trying to add it to the wiki header
<knome> but the wiki is playing games on me
<ochosi> wiki: quit playing games with knome's heart!
<knome> hah
<knome> ok, saved (finally)
<knome> so meh
<knome> tbh, i have no idea for the image
<ochosi> hmf, some minwidth issue?
<knome> nope
<knome> i'll look at it
<ochosi> btw, the .1 notes look fine to me, not sure there's anything else we should add
<ochosi> saw you took out the doc thingy, wasn't sure about that one anyway
<knome> me?
<knome> i didn't take out anything.
<ochosi> then i guess somebody else did
<knome> <div id="attachment_2466" class="wp-caption alignright" style="width: 298px">
<knome> <img class="size-full wp-image-2466" width="288"
<knome> there's your 10px problem
<knome> pleia2, you around?
<knome> ochosi, fwiw:
<knome> .wp-caption-text { margin-right: 10px; }
<knome> ochosi, i'd probably go: "Bug fixes for the first point release"
<knome> not "Bug fixes for the .1 release"
<ochosi> knome: sure, feel free to edit the article
<knome> i need to work with other stuff :/
<knome> seriously, give me a break:P
<ochosi> well writing it here or directly into the wp editor...
<knome> i know but it's already gone
<knome> you should know better that i'm not really avoiding work
<knome> ochosi, thanks for doing it (i see you have the lock now)
<ochosi> knome: np
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: i've reviewed your post again btw
<slickymasterWork> hey ochosi 
<slickymasterWork> which one?
<ochosi> the 12.04>14.04 article
<slickymasterWork> ah, do you want me to change anything else?
<ochosi> i'm considering to add icons to it, so that it's not just a wall of text
<slickymasterWork> what icons are you speaking of?
<ochosi> application icons
<ochosi> lls, ristretto, menulibre whiskermenu
<slickymasterWork> ah, aesthetically wise I agree with you 
<ochosi> and for ppas the software sources icon
<slickymasterWork> I'm guessing you're already doing it since it's locked
<ochosi> yup
<slickymasterWork> :) thanks
<ochosi> np
<slickymasterWork> as you're on it, you could also take a look at the inxi FAQ
<ochosi> one thing at a time
<ochosi> it's my lunch break, so not sure how much more time i have after finalizing that post
<slickymasterWork> I wasnÂ´t pressing
<ochosi> i know, just sayin i might need one more reminder ;)
<ochosi> also, did Unit193 already review the inxi faq thingy?
<ochosi> he knows more about it than me, so his review is more important
<slickymasterWork> I think so, but I'm not 100% sure
<slickymasterWork> Unit193: ^^^ asap, pretty please!
<ochosi> Unit193: please let me know what you thought of slickymasterWork's inxi faq entry
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> doubleping!
<slickymasterWork> :)
<ochosi> slickymasterWork: ok, i'm pretty much done with the upgrade article, if you wanna take another look
<ochosi> maybe i'll edit the first paragraph a little more, other than that i think it's good
<ochosi> i'd publish it after the .1 release notes
<slickymasterWork> sorry ochosi, got cought with something here at work
<slickymasterWork> it looks much better with the icons, good job
<slickymasterWork> yeah, if you think the first paragraph can be improved, please go ahead and do it
<elfy> bluesabre ochosi - images marked ready - apparently no need for release notes so \o/ to that
<knome> heh :)
<ochosi> elfy: hehe, nice. well still, i guess we can hit the publish button soon on that
<elfy> it'll need fiddling with regardless ochosi 
<elfy> but we don't have to rush to do it today :)
<ochosi> well the sooner the better
<elfy> yes 
<knome> btw
<knome> the download page needs updating once .1 images are published
<knome> the torrent links break since the torrent name changes
<elfy> mmm
<skellat> Thank you slickymaster for the setting on that infernal bug.  There was a new duplicate to LP Bug 1347705 this morning so eventually we'll need to address it.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1347705 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "Split theme packages do not properly declare conflicts" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347705
<slickymasterWork> np skellat 
<slickymasterWork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/TrustyPoint1TestingReport -> Xubuntu amd64 100.00% 100.00% and Xubuntu i386 100.00% 100.00%   \o/
<knome> unfortunately those reports are always a bit misleading, for xubuntu and others too
<knome> does anybody really think under 10 tests per architecture for a distribution used by tens (or hundreds) of thousand is enough?
<slickymasterWork> knome, statistical values ââare worth what the're worth, they are always obtained by sampling
<elfy> slickymasterWork: the other thing with that page is if we had 10 testcase bugs and people did waht they normally do - we'd have 0% pass rate - even though we'd know it was all good really
<slickymasterWork> elfy: but isn't the Pass rate supposed to account only the 'passed without bugs' tests?
<elfy> possibly - long story short - I ignore it :)
<slickymasterWork> lol
<knome> i think there should be some other way to generate the stats
<knome> or maybe it would be more beneficial to see stats for the whole cycle
<knome> eg. how many times any given test has been run, taking all dailies in account
<knome> or all builds
<Unit193> knome: Can you add the trello calendar to that?
<slickymasterWork> Unit193: can you give your official review to http://xubuntu.org/?p=2548 and ping ochosi on it
<Unit193> "...and sound cards Most importantly,..."  Missing a period?
<slickymasterWork> keen eye Unit193 
<slickymasterWork> give me a second and I'll fix it
<slickymasterWork> done, please refresh Unit193 
<Unit193> slickymasterWork: Generally looks fine, but if you want you can include that -x (-xx and -xxx) will give you more detailed information on whatever you're looking for.  inxi -Gxxx for example will give you much more information on your graphics card.  This is just details though, may be unneeded.
<Unit193> You have the example of -F, while describing -f. (Need to cap the second F)
<elfy> I still think we're just going to end up with line after line after line in support channels
<Unit193> elfy: And, we may, but I have a backup plan for that too.
<slickymasterWork> I am also afraid of that elfy :P
<elfy> so have I Unit193 
<elfy> mine entails treating it like #ubuntu and not going there ;)
 * slickymasterWork has a suspicion on what elfy's plan might be
 * slickymasterWork was certain
<elfy> lol
<slickymasterWork> Unit193: corrected the second 'f'
<Unit193> slickymasterWork, ochosi: Looks fine to me.
<slickymasterWork> Unit193: regarding the inclusion of (some) more options, I think the original intention was to keep it as a sort of a shot list/description
<slickymasterWork> s/shot/short
<slickymasterWork> even though a shot might be welcome after work :P
<slickymasterWork> oh and thanks Unit193 ;)
<elfy> Unit193: so the -o option in irc  is that needed for pastebinit to grab it?
<Unit193> elfy: That means the pastebin link will be output to channel, not just so the user sees it.
<elfy> ok - just checking :)
<knome> Unit193, what trello calendar?
<knome> Unit193, i guess i'd need to be an admin in the trello board to look closer into that
<Unit193> I can see it...
<knome> i can see the calendar
<knome> but it'd need to be at least public to be shareable
<knome> and to appear in the same view, we'd need at least an iCal feed that only admins can enable
<Unit193> Right, I somehow got a link.
<Unit193> Think ochosi passed it to me.
<knome> done.
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/team-calendar/ now shows the trello calendar too
<knome> aand better color for trello items, and week numbers visible
<elfy> thanks knome 
<Unit193> \o/
<Unit193> Dowh, js required. :(
<knome> elfy, np
<knome> Unit193, yeah.
<elfy> ochosi: can't remember if I said I'd miss the next team meeting or not - but I'll miss it ;)
 * Unit193 wonders if we should put up a pre-roll call somewhere...
<elfy> or just do what we normally do - see who pitches up 
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-25
<elfy> knome: updated the torrent links
<elfy> ochosi: ^^
<ochosi> thanks a bunch elfy!
<knome> elfy, cheers
<brainwash> is this a regression caused by the recent xfpm sru update? http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2236184
<bluesabre> shouldn't be.  The update doesn't change the functionality of xfpm, and keeps the default setting of letting logind do its own thing
<bluesabre> if the system is suspending on lid close, it's logind
<bluesabre> right ochosi ^ ?
<ochosi> lemme check, currently distracted
<brainwash> just noticed this forum thread, made me wonder
<ochosi> just read through that now
<brainwash> the thread starter mentions that this was caused by a very recent update
<elfy> also mentions systemd - if they're running with systemd - do they get the same issue if running upstart 
<brainwash> but it's xubuntu 14.04
<elfy> but we use upstart not systemd - no-one uses systemd at present - other than those testing it
<brainwash> they call it systemd, but it's only logind
<elfy> aah ok - not read it properly
<brainwash> so we got this one report here, maybe it's indeed a regression, maybe not
<brainwash> at least the black screen madness is fixed now :)
<ochosi> i can't look at the exact changeset for xfpm now as i'm focussing on other things atm, but this shouldn't be a regression
<ochosi> all it should do is let logind handle the suspending in case it's also set to lock the session
<ochosi> but if you set it to not suspend, it should still follow that setting
<brainwash> ok then
<ochosi> so xfpm should take precedence in all cases but one, which is if it is set to suspend+lock, then it'll let logind do its thing
<brainwash> oh.. bug 1347272
<ubottu> bug 1347272 in dbus (Ubuntu) "DBus communication problems affecting multiple packages" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347272
<brainwash> some sort of meta bug report
<brainwash> marked as critical...
<brainwash> where is ali1234? =S
<bluesabre> yay, a bug report that reports existing bugs
<elfy> bluesabre: just double checking that mugshot has changed to only use a camera or browse now?
<elfy> testcase is still referring to slect from stock
<bluesabre> elfy, select from stock is only visible when the stock photos directory is present (there is a gnome package that installs these items)
<elfy> ok - so in general for US it is not? 
<bluesabre> yes, unless we want to add some faces at some point :)
<bluesabre> /usr/share/pixmaps/faces/
<elfy> ok - we can change the test when/if that happens
<bluesabre> cool
<elfy> in the meantime - elfy reports testcase bug and fixes it :p
<bluesabre> :D
<elfy> sigh - seems that mimetypes or something are all mucked up somehow - text file default is abiword
<brainwash> right, we were thinking about this, gdm installs some stock photos for gnome
<elfy> purging abiword to deal with that
<brainwash> elfy: clean user account?
<elfy> brainwash: we might be thinking about it - but at present the option doesn't appear in mugshot
<elfy> this is more or less a clean account
<elfy> sigh now it wants to use lo writer
<brainwash> what a mess :)
<elfy> yep 
<elfy> installing windows to deal with it 
<knome> i've always felt like mime type associations never were the strong selling point of *any* OS...
<elfy> mmm - so properties on the file is pointing to mousepad
<bluesabre> elfy, fixed released: bug 1347705
<ubottu> bug 1347705 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "Split theme packages do not properly declare conflicts" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1347705
<bluesabre> but, maybe not built in the archive yet...
<elfy> awesome - I'll wait for it :)
<ochosi> great bluesabre, thanks!
<bluesabre> it's in the archive now
<elfy> upgraded those
<elfy> it's formatted / to ntfs - is that right :p
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> Going to release the release announcement?
<bluesabre> We probably should at some point, eh?
<bluesabre> ochosi knome elfy ^
<knome> i dunno
<knome> has somebody from the release team "signed off" that the article is okay?
<knome> i can publish it if ACK'd
<bluesabre> is the photo caption css fixed?  looks to be wider than the photo
<knome> any photo should have the same issue, so...
<elfy> I'm not sure if it should have ALL of the stuff from the lts release announcement
<elfy> not had time to fiddle with it anymore 
<ochosi> me neither, but otoh it doesn't hurt
<knome> we need pleia2 for a css fix
<ochosi> from my pov it's okayish, but i have little xp with release announcements
<ochosi> g2g
<ochosi> ttyl
<elfy> well it's got the correct dl link in it and the sru fixes
<bluesabre> Yeah, everything looks good to me
<elfy> bluesabre: you're editing it - can you blitz all the other efforts and thanks bit from it 
<knome> i'll do a manual fix for the image
<bluesabre> not editing now
<knome> ...once sean releases the edit lock ;)
<knome> says to me you are
<elfy> and me
<knome> please leave the edit page whenever you're not editing
<bluesabre> knome, feel free to destroy as elfy indicated above
<bluesabre> I left
<bluesabre> and logged out to make sure
<knome> the image is manually fixed now
<knome> it looks crap in the editor
<knome> but who cares!
<knome> i've also left the edit page
<elfy> telling me you've not
<knome> lol
<knome> just go ahead
<knome> and let's see if it saved the stuff or not ;)
<elfy> all done
<knome> yep, now it tells me you are editing
<elfy> lol
<elfy> just go ahead
<elfy> :p
<knome> nope
<knome> i'm all fine
<knome> just hit publish once you are done
<elfy> looks ok to me then 
<elfy> published 
<elfy> I suppose front page should reflect .1 
 * Unit193 waits for http://xubuntu.org/news/category/news/
<Unit193> knome: Hope you don't mind.
<knome> what page?
<knome> oh, front
 * knome facepalms
<knome> elfy, better?
<knome> Unit193, great, ta for #x
<bluesabre> ochosi: care to update http://xubuntu.org/news/screen-locking-in-xubuntu-14-04/ with the post-bugfix fix details?
<elfy> thanks knome :)
<knome> np
<knome> hmm
<knome> i was thinking
<bluesabre> careful
<knome> we sometimes have some people join from the webchat asking the simplest question(s)
<knome> what can we do to offer them the information on the website so they don't have to join IRC?
<knome> or can we do anything about that?
<bluesabre> http://xubuntu.org/news/category/faq/
<bluesabre> We don't update that very often, but maybe we can add something to that with general questions/answers
<elfy> how simple a question is it 
<knome> yeah, but a link to another page is a bit meg
<knome> *meh
<SkippersBoss> Evening, sorry to interrupt.  People will aways ask before looking into docs and manuals
<bluesabre> :)
<bluesabre> indeed
<elfy> yep 
<bluesabre> or before typing on google
<knome> elfy, i don't have anything specific in mind.. but i was thinking something what's in the FAQ or docs
<SkippersBoss> precisely. 
<elfy> well 
<elfy> given that I've spent 7 years seeing that on the forum - you can lead a horse to water
<elfy> I would prefer that *our* faq is specific things 
<knome> well i can't... ;)
<SkippersBoss> so update the bot may be an answer to lead them to the right documentation
<knome> new users do not know anything about the bot
<elfy> they don't need to if I understand what SkippersBoss means
<elfy> ! somefactoid to point them at a resource
<ubottu> elfy: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<elfy> oh do behave
<SkippersBoss> Precisely
<SkippersBoss> but lazyness also does play a part
<elfy> yep
<SkippersBoss> Internet can be a scary place if you want to look for a solution to - what we perceive to be an easy - problem 
<knome> maybe i don't understand either of you, or either of you don't understand me
<knome> what if a new user comes to the channel, asks a question but nobody is available to control the bot?
<knome> (or reply more naturally...)
<elfy> there is that
<elfy> but still - you could have a page anywhere you want - doesn't follow that they'll see it, read it, take any notice
<elfy> and still ask the question 
<SkippersBoss> What we are trying to say is that there will always be people who are going to as first before cheicking out the docs
<SkippersBoss> exactemundo
<SkippersBoss> You cannot cater for every event
<SkippersBoss> and you want to be careful that the docs are not covering every possible question and become cumbersome to manage/read 
<SkippersBoss> Besides you are aware that in http://xubuntu.org/help/ you admit yourself that IRC  "is often the fastest way to get help. "
<SkippersBoss> <ducking> :-)
<Unit193> I just read "bestest" there. :D
<bluesabre> maybe we could add more details to the channel welcome message?
<Unit193> Meh, people don't read that or the topic.
<SkippersBoss> U see my point. You have indicated there is documentation and IRC support . You also have indicated that there might not be some around to help them immediately
<SkippersBoss> Speaking of the FAQ, I have the last listing as per May 2013 ? Is this right ?
<bluesabre> the screen locking page could also be linked there when updated
<elfy> and inxi
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-26
<Unit193> ochosi_, bluesabre: xfwm4 4.11.2 â ppa:unit193/xfce
<Noskcaj> Done in debian too
<Unit193> Hrm, so I could merge it, but: https://sigma.unit193.net/source/xfwm4_4.11.2-0ubuntu1.dsc is the utopic version.
<Unit193> bluesabre: If you want it in the archive, that dsc will do you well. :P
<Unit193> Noskcaj: I don't see it anywhere.
<Noskcaj> Unit193, debcommit broke the first time, i hadn't realsied
<Unit193> Why not wait for Sean?
<bluesabre> hey guys
<Unit193> Yey!
<Unit193> bluesabre: You know how to use dget right? :)
 * bluesabre tries dget https://sigma.unit193.net/source/xfwm4_4.11.2-0ubuntu1.dsc
<Unit193> Noskcaj: If you're feeling like fixing a few copyright-refers-to-symlink-license â http://paste.openstack.org/show/n72kIcOnlIS4JgWwZYAq
 * bluesabre tests package
<Unit193> PPA'd.
<ochosi_> hey guys
<ochosi> so uploading the new xfwm4 already? :>
 * ochosi can finally push his local greybird version to make alt-tab look nice
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<Unit193> ochosi: I've been using it, may as well let others. :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: ah, so it should be fine for the archive then
<Unit193> bluesabre: I've had some issues, but unrelated to that version.  Mine was a git snapshot, 4.11.1+git20140418.ce17bcd-1
<Unit193> But, I think I'm happy with it.
<bluesabre> ok
<Unit193> But ochosi is the Xfce guy, I'm just Debian. ;)
<bluesabre> :)
 * bluesabre pushes to utopic
<Unit193> Great, thanks.
<bluesabre> also going to copy your trusty packages
<Unit193> bluesabre: Now my concern is that the thunar-dropbox one in the PPA is "newer" than archive, would you like to remove both the utopic and trusty versions in that PPA?  You won't be able to reupload if you do.  I defer to you, of course.
<bluesabre> maybe just remove the utopic version?
<Unit193> Trusty to utopic upgrades will still have the "orphaned" trusty version, but that works.
<bluesabre> will they? PPAs are disabled on upgrade
<bluesabre> possibly purged, not sure about the actual mechanism
<Unit193> 0.2.0+dfsg1-1~14.04 > 0.2.0+dfsg1-0ubuntu1
<Unit193> Just commented out.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Did you want to snag the xfdash from my PPA, or sticking on stable branch?
<bluesabre> ah good idea
<bluesabre> ping me anytime there are updates so I can sync them ;)
<Unit193> I thought I did, may have just tagged the other fella.
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> you probably did
<bluesabre> which reminds me, compton config
 * Unit193 ducks.
<Unit193> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2144468 I had an edited version of this, I'll ping you about 0100 or later my time.
<Unit193> *Our time.
<bluesabre> ok
<bluesabre> and are there any other xfce components we want to ship a xubuntu-ized config for?
<Unit193> Not that I can think of?
<Unit193> xubuntu-u193-settings and unit193-settings don't seem to have anything I should forward.
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> I suppose one of the next things we should do is drop indicator-power and add xfpm to the panel
<Unit193> Yey!  I'll be able to drop that change. :D
<Unit193> !info xfce4-power-manager
<ubottu> xfce4-power-manager (source: xfce4-power-manager): power manager for Xfce desktop. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.2.0-3ubuntu4.1 (trusty), package size 76 kB, installed size 371 kB
<Unit193> !info xfce4-power-manager utopic
<ubottu> xfce4-power-manager (source: xfce4-power-manager): power manager for Xfce desktop. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.3.0-1ubuntu1 (utopic), package size 73 kB, installed size 358 kB
<Unit193> We can now, yeah.
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> Unit193, Noskcaj: Is upower 0.99 expected before 14.10?
<Unit193> I'm pretty sure, but he's involved with the transition.
<Unit193> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/ don't see it.
<Unit193> bluesabre: What does "watching" do on GH?
<bluesabre> beats me, I'm a github noob
<bluesabre> I use it because its faster than git.xfce
<bluesabre> and the web tools are classy
<Unit193> Hrm.  If it notifies on releases, want to subscribe to a simi dead repo? :P
<bluesabre> you must be talking about https://github.com/shimmerproject/Blackbird
<bluesabre> ;)
<bluesabre> but sure
<Unit193> https://github.com/Maato/thunar-dropbox
<bluesabre> that looks pretty dead
<Unit193> I'd like to remove the local dir (I have uscan run recursivly there) but still need to know about any new release that doesn't happen. :P
<bluesabre> alrighty, heading to bed now
<bluesabre> back tomorrow for at least a little bit
<Unit193> Coolio.
<brainwash> can we mark bug 1054299 as duplicate of bug 1229486 ?
<ubottu> bug 1054299 in xfce4-session (Ubuntu) "Race condition in suspend scripts reveals desktop" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1054299
<ubottu> bug 1229486 in One Hundred Papercuts "xscreensaver-command is slow at locking" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1229486
<brainwash> they only mention xscreensaver (report 1) and a newer version of xscreensaver seems to fix the problem in uptopic (report 2)
<brainwash> main issue here is, that the first report is marked as high priority + security related
<brainwash> so it needs to be resolved "asap"
#xubuntu-devel 2014-07-27
<Unit193> bluesabre: Not sure if this is the right one, but it's the only one I have anymore: http://paste.openstack.org/show/JThPHY6KpjcghFkDKThu
<brainwash> ochosi, bluesabre: bug 1349056
<ubottu> bug 1349056 in xfce4-power-manager (Ubuntu) "xfce4-power-manager doesn't suspend on lid closed (regression)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1349056
<bluesabre> ochosi: re ^, doesn't logind normally handle suspending on lid-close? It seems his regression is based on his workaround no longer working.
<brainwash> bug report should be marked as invalid then, or?
<ochosi> yup
<brainwash> in case there is no bug in xfpm
<ochosi> well not that i know of
<bluesabre> well, we could also leave a comment about the new xfconf setting
<ochosi> we should actually finally do that blog post
<ochosi> bluesabre: btw, you could be in touch with eric_the_idiot about that upower1.0 patch for settings
<bluesabre> ok, I'll keep an eye on #xfce-dev
 * bluesabre gets to work
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
 * bluesabre got to work, and then his pizza arrived
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> bluesabre: whatw were you working on?
<bluesabre> got a few things I'm trying to get done today... fixing bugs in catfish, new point releases for catfish, mugshot, parole (0.6.2), and updates to replace indicator-power with xfpm plugin
<bluesabre> and the updates for light-locker-settings is also on my list
<ochosi> wow, that's quite a bit
<bluesabre> yeah, been slacking a bit, trying to catch up today :)
<bluesabre> a few bugs are specific to arch, so setting up an env for that
<bluesabre> (arch kills me)
<ochosi> :>
<olbi> hi guys, clean instalation of Xubuntu 14.04.1 and after trying update a lot of errors: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7878260/
<knome> olbi, have you filed a bug?
<olbi> i'm doing this right now :P
<knome> not on this channel.
<olbi> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-release-upgrader/+bug/1349180
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1349180 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Updating repositories caused crash" [Undecided,New]
<knome> olbi, ok, now please stop wasting everybody's time and stop cross-posting.
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-20
<bluesabre> back again
<knome> :)
<micahg> bluesabre: breeze recommends orion-gtk-theme
<micahg> but kubuntu packageset shouldn't be grabbing in that scenario
<bluesabre> breeze recommends orion-gtk-theme?  that seems odd
<micahg> added in vivid by riddell
<bluesabre> feels like a typo... its listed in debian breeze as well, but the package does not exist in debian
<bluesabre> or maybe not
<bluesabre> maybe he chose it because it happens to be a white theme?
<micahg> idk
<bluesabre> alrighty
<micahg> but, I"ll see about getting the script fixed
<bluesabre> thanks
<bluesabre> if you want to upload it, I can give you a tarball of the package ready to upload
<micahg> I could do that
<bluesabre> https://copy.com/qkWTWvcHRC09gMSQ
<bluesabre> since its a multi-source package
<knome> off to bed, see you tomorrow
<bluesabre> have a good night knome
<micahg> bluesabre: is shimmer-themes not stored in a VCS?
<micahg> bluesabre: I also realized, I'll need a signed sha1 sum file for the tarball you gave me to confirm authenticity
<Jake2234> hi everyone
<astraljava> Hello!
<astraljava> Oh, gone already. =/
<knome> good morning astraljava 
<bluesabre> micahg: the themes are all individually on https://github.com/shimmerproject
<bluesabre> dc8ad71119b2d5849bc670ac7fc2c10562c81e2e  shimmer-themes_2.0.0.orig-albatross.tar.gz
<bluesabre> a0f31c8276c29f7325c0dbe371fdc69407c503d4  shimmer-themes_2.0.0.orig-bluebird.tar.gz
<bluesabre> a01e6d35a7148fcc89191f1e8cbce256d194b8ad  shimmer-themes_2.0.0.orig-greybird.tar.gz
<bluesabre> 4c6202ffac02c2319193eb60d99f863f9cba424e  shimmer-themes_2.0.0.orig-numix.tar.gz
<bluesabre> ef900a5a8e6ceddae89b979dcc86db7de610f937  shimmer-themes_2.0.0.orig-orion.tar.gz
<bluesabre> ab3311a31e796117f6c4ab8176ac1382aef100f3  shimmer-themes_2.0.0.orig.tar.gz
<bluesabre> 838b575ca8210bc67e53eedfb9aa3bda69235cc0  shimmer-themes_2.0.0.orig-wallpapers.tar.gz
<bluesabre> oh, signed sha1sum file
<slickymasterWork> Unit193, everything went almost smooth with the -core installation 
<slickymasterWork> there was a small hick up in ubiquity after setting up the partitions 
<slickymasterWork> ubi-timezone crashed -> http://i.imgur.com/jtAta3f.jpg
<slickymasterWork> but it installed nonetheless 
<slickymasterWork> you you want any logs just ping mre
<bluesabre> micahg: https://copy.com/i3CPChMUaZlNrM6o
<astraljava> ochosi: bluesabre: bug 1303736
<ubottu> bug 1303736 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "[SRU] Black screen after wakeup from suspending by closing the laptop lid" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1303736
<astraljava> You had played with this? I'm seeing _occasionally_ the same symptoms on vivid, except that in my case I never even see the password dialog, when this problem occurs.
<bluesabre> astraljava: it might be related to the proprietary graphics drivers
<bluesabre> vt switch with nvivia can take over 10 seconds
<bluesabre> then the greeter defaults to a sleeped display
<bluesabre> as a "screensaver"
<bluesabre> so keep clicking and wiggling
<bluesabre> !team | Feature Freeze in one month
<ubottu> Feature Freeze in one month: bluesabre, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<bluesabre> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<astraljava> bluesabre: Good to know, thanks! By the way, I need to remove the $vt_switch from my grub boot parameter list, otherwise I will not get the passphrase for LVM encryption.
<astraljava> Is it in any way related?
<bluesabre> astraljava: I have no idea
<bluesabre> Unit193 might know something about that though
<astraljava> Ok, figured as much. Nobody seems to have a clue. :D
<astraljava> Great, now he'll probably be annoyed enough for the ping, but it wasn't me, so I'm off the hook. :D
<astraljava> Thanks for your assistance!
<bluesabre> np
<bluesabre> we ping Unit193 all the time
<bluesabre> Unit193 likes talking to us
<bluesabre> Unit193 is almost always around
<bluesabre> it's probably because of what we did the to other 192 Units
<bluesabre> >:D
<astraljava> Aaahhhahahaha!
<astraljava> So in essence he just keeps respawning when the earlier revision explodes?
<bluesabre> seems to be the case
<bluesabre> this one seems more durable than the last
<astraljava> A bit like that Tom Cruise movie.
<bluesabre> ... mixed with Groundhog Day
<astraljava> Yep.
<knome> boo, this is the development channel, not #bad-jokes
<astraljava> Probably much more like that than epic fighting with space aliens.
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> that's okay knome, I'm done now
<bluesabre> gotta get ready for work
<astraljava> Oh, oops. Sorry, knome, Unit193!
<bluesabre> hf today guys :D
<astraljava> You too!
<knome> you too
<dkessel> mhh newest parole no longer freezes on startup, but on exit... :)
<knome> !team | meeting in 20mins
<ubottu> meeting in 20mins: bluesabre, jjfrv8, knome, lderan, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster, Unit193
<knome> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jul 20 16:28:37 2015 UTC.  The chair is knome. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<knome> who's here for the meeting?
<jjfrv8> o/
<knome> (let's wait for 5 or so more for people to turn up)
<knome> hey jjfrv8 :)
<jjfrv8> hey, knome
<micahg_work> o/
<knome> allÃ¶ micahg_work 
<dkessel> hellooo
<knome> hey dkessel :)
<slickymasterWork> sorry, being nagged by my boss :P
<slickymasterWork> but here, now
<knome> heh, hey slickymasterWork 
<knome> let's start then
<knome> not much on the agenda, so likely a short meeting
<knome> #topic Open action items
<slickymasterWork> yeah
<knome> -> dkessel to investigate automated image testing 
<knome> is that done?
<knome> (whatever that means, seems like a huge scope)
<dkessel> knome: well... i did what i could
<knome> okay, so what's the current status of that?
<dkessel> i contacted balloons, he told me that DanChapman would be working on it.
<knome> right
<dkessel> i then asked DanChapman about it again.... this time by mail, just yesterday. no response yet.
<knome> let's not carry that action item on then
<dkessel> i hope mail will cause a response...
<knome> ultimately, it would be nice to turn that into work items in the blueprints if there is something we can benefit from and that is realistic to achieve
<knome> thanks for taking care!
<dkessel> i guess we can create a new item once we have some response
<knome> yeah, and in the blueprints rather than meetings if at all appropriate, to have it actually tracked
<knome> -> xubuntu-dev to review requirements for xubuntu-core iso, investigating patches to livecd-rootfs, ubuntu-cdimage and debian-cd
<knome> micahg_work, do you know the status of this review?
<knome> or is it ochosi/bluesabre/Unit193 who are working on it?
<micahg_work> nope, but I can help, I think Unit193 was driving this
<slickymasterWork> that eas my impression also knome 
<slickymasterWork> s/eas/was
<knome> i don't know much about it, so let's just carry it on and you can get on with working it later :)
<knome> #action xubuntu-dev to review requirements for xubuntu-core iso, investigating patches to livecd-rootfs, ubuntu-cdimage and debian-cd
<meetingology> ACTION: xubuntu-dev to review requirements for xubuntu-core iso, investigating patches to livecd-rootfs, ubuntu-cdimage and debian-cd
<knome> #nick xubuntu-dev
<knome> those were the only action items carried
<knome> #topic Team updates
<knome> #info knome worked on a PoC for a work items tracker specifically for Xubuntu
<knome> ^ more on that under other discussions
<slickymasterWork> nothing from -docs to report
<knome> #info background: http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-w/ was last updated on 13 July
<micahg_work> broken cron?
<knome> i have no further information on that
<knome> the tracker is only used by us and some openstack people, so there's no guarantee that it will be kept running in the future
<micahg_work> File a bug? https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-work-items-tracker/
<micahg_work> is there some new shinier tool people are using?
<knome> the project isn't active, and it's not those people who control the instance anyway i believe, it'd be IS who could work on that
<knome> let's move on and get back to the subject
<knome> just a sec...
<knome> #topic Announcements
<knome> anything?
<micahg_work> oh, I supposed I could've mentioned dev stuff
<knome> #info Feature Freeze on August 20th
<knome> yes... you could have :)
<knome> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: INFO
<knome> #undo
<meetingology> Removing item from minutes: TOPIC
<knome> go ahead
<micahg_work> #info bluesabre packaged shimmer-themes 2.0.0 with the latest themes, micahg will upload soon
<micahg_work> #info bluesabre is working to get QT apps to appear better in Xubuntu by setting environment variables appropriately
<micahg_work> #info micahg to work on getting shimmer-themes back into the Xubuntu packageset
<micahg_work> there's probably more, but that's what I remember at the moment
<knome> ok
<knome> #topic Announcements
<knome> #info Feature Freeze on August 20th
<knome> any other announcements?
<micahg_work> not that I can think of
<knome> #topic Discussion
<knome> #subtopic Work items tracker
<knome> so basically, the project you linked to has been inactive for a long time
<knome> and it would be canonical IS who to contact about cron jobs not working
<knome> but i hacked together a replacement last night already
<knome> it doesn't do all the same things as the current one, but we should discuss what we want from the tracker at some point
<micahg_work> well, code is public right?
<micahg_work> we could just set up an instance
<slickymasterWork> isn't pitti who maintains it>?
<knome> if you are volunteering to do that and work on the improvements on the python code, then certainly
<knome> slickymasterWork, the code, most likely not the instance
<micahg_work> not me, but there are others on the team with enough python experience that if they so desired they could
<knome> this has been discussed since ages, and nobody has stepped up
<knome> which proves there isn't enough interest to do it with the current codebase
<knome> i'm all for using existing tools... but idealism doesn't carry us too far, actions need to be taken if we want to go somewhere with it
<knome> #action knome to follow up with team about the features the team would like to see in a status tracker, should we decide to use knome's code
<meetingology> ACTION: knome to follow up with team about the features the team would like to see in a status tracker, should we decide to use knome's code
<knome> any ideas/feedback on this now?
<knome> (i'll post the PoC url for the team later)
<knome> #subtopic Other discussions
<knome> anything else?
<knome> #topic Schedule next meeting
<slickymasterWork> it's ochosi turn, I believe knome 
<knome> ochosi is up next for XPL duties
<knome> yep
<knome> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jul 20 16:58:42 2015 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2015/xubuntu-devel.2015-07-20-16.28.moin.txt
<slickymasterWork> thanks knome 
<knome> minutes are up
<knome> micahg_work, https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=26792
<micahg_work> I'll have to look later
<micahg_work> thanks
<knome> well it's just a ticket saying status.ubuntu.com isn't updating
<knome> but if you want to follow-up with it...
<knome> or follow
<ochosi> knome, micahg_work: i asked "the maintainers" (i don't know who it was anymore) at the beginning of the cycle about status.ubuntu, because it initially didn't even get set up for wily for a few weeks
<ochosi> then they set it up, but reluctantly, saying it could be retired
<ochosi> so this lack of updates is sort of in line with that, and not a huge surprise
<micahg_work> maintainer was cjohnston IIRC
<ochosi> right, i guess then it must've been him i talked to
<ochosi> either way, one definitive advantage of using knome's code over the current implementation is that we can make it flexible and suit our needs, whereas general interest in status.ubuntu seemingly faded away
<ochosi> and we can always make our code available, maybe that'll inspire interest in other teams as well (e.g. those who use trello atm)
<bluesabre> hello all
<knome> hey bluesabre 
<ochosi> hey
<ochosi> bluesabre: good timing, please try: https://github.com/shimmerproject/Greybird/commit/1745782e1928fd28fdd44530cd7b3bf6fb3283d1
<ochosi> also, in wily, the overlay scrollbars are not disabled in all apps
<ochosi> e.g. mousepad still has them
<ochosi> so that env-var seems to work only with gnome apps that implement it, not gtk-wide
<bluesabre> yeah, seemingly thats the case :(
<ochosi> so anyway, with my patch they should be usable
<bluesabre> checking it out now
<ochosi> soon it's taking you longer to check out the patch than it took me to write it ;)
<bluesabre> took a while
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> yeah, that seems ok
<ochosi> yeah, the tweaking took most of the time
<ochosi> wasnt sure what look to go for
<ochosi> i don't mind adwaita's look
<ochosi> but then again, this one looks more like current greybird
<bluesabre> yup
<ochosi> so yeah, personally i wouldn't disable the overlay scrollbars
<ochosi> especially not like we're doing it now, cause it's not working so well
<bluesabre> if it disables any at all its more consistent with the overall desktop
<bluesabre> but yeah, I can remove it for next themes upload
<bluesabre> it seems like a silly feature
<ochosi> oh right, the themes haven't been uploaded yet, right?
<bluesabre> apps are able to declare whether to support the overlay scrollbars
<ochosi> it's something iOS has, is all i can think of :)
<ochosi> right, that is a bit silly
<ochosi> either they should always work or they shouldn't
<ochosi> maybe that option will be dropped and was only added as a compromise because some app devs didn't like the scrollbars or something
<bluesabre> maybe
<ochosi> either way, the patch should make those cases where users have those scrollbars a lot better
<bluesabre> yup
<ochosi> be they always or just seldomly or never
<bluesabre> thanks for that
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> no problem, just had to read a bit of gtk+ git commit backlog ;)
<ochosi> (and convert the scss to css)
<ochosi> (and make a consistent style)
<bluesabre> gotta love the great documentation
<ochosi> yeah, it's all in git log!
<ochosi> :>
<ochosi> recently someone emailed me about making gtk themes and where to find docs for that, i guess this will be my reply
<ochosi> a new shimmer-themes hasn't been uploaded yet, right? still out of our package-set..?
<bluesabre> yup
<ochosi> k
<bluesabre> 1 month to work on new software releases now :)
<bluesabre> going to aim for 1/week
<bluesabre> might lower some of my loftier goals ;)
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> yeah, makes sense
<ochosi> after all, this is the "summer cycle"
<ochosi> not the one where most of the work usually happens
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> gotta get in a good position for LTS though
<ochosi> yep, we better make that one cound
<ochosi> count too
<ochosi> some things like xfpanel-switch should really see a release so we can test it in wily
<ochosi> and iron out in x
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> I might get that one out next week
<ochosi> i mean that one is "basically ready" iirc
<ochosi> it still has some glitches with the save/restore routine iirc
<bluesabre> this is a short week for me (anniversary), so aiming for a bugfix menulibre release tomorrow hopefully
<ochosi> oh congarats!
<ochosi> !congarats | bluesabre 
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> i thought ubottu knew something about congarats. or maybe it was conga-rats
<bluesabre> !congarays-#ubuntu-devel or something like that
<ubottu> bluesabre: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<bluesabre> !congarats-#ubuntu-devel or something like that
<ubottu> bluesabre: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<bluesabre> !conga-rats-#ubuntu-devel or something like that
<ubottu> bluesabre: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<bluesabre> or nope
<ochosi> :D
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> ochosi: got anything you need me to look at tonight?
<ochosi> btw, i think the UI for panel-switch could be two simple buttons in the panel config dialog
<bluesabre> in the xfpanel dialog?
<ochosi> like, just put a "save" and "load" button next to the "+" and "-" http://i.imgur.com/mm8S8SC.png
<ochosi> naturally, that would only save the currently selected panel, so slightly different functionality
<ochosi> but maybe just copying the xml would suffice there
<ochosi> or was it still using .rcs
<bluesabre> xml
<bluesabre> its reading/writing xfconf
<ochosi> i vaguely remember it being a bit hacky
<ochosi> but it's been too long that i actually looked at the code
<bluesabre> same here
<ochosi> branching...
<ochosi> hm, no module named panelconfig
<ochosi> what did i miss there
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> one sec
<ochosi> (fwiw, i think xfpanel-switch is more likely to make it than that parole workitem)
<bluesabre> yup
<ochosi> unless ofc packagekit is as easy as they say and one of us has a spark of motivation + time
<bluesabre> was pretty sure this worked at one point
<bluesabre> but I think I have a fix
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> "worked at some point" sounds like a nice release message
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> pull it
<bluesabre> ./configure; make; make install
<ochosi> did that though
<ochosi> no new revs
<bluesabre> where are you looking?
<ochosi> oh cra
<ochosi> p
<bluesabre> https://code.launchpad.net/~xfpanel-switch-dev/xfpanel-switch/trunk
<bluesabre> ;)
<ochosi> sry, was looking at your junk
<knome> haha
 * ochosi puts on his innocent not-native-speaker hat
<bluesabre> lol
<ochosi> looks
<ochosi> good
<bluesabre> ish
<bluesabre> probably
<ochosi> :)
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> well, enough for a 0.1 release and getting it into the archive imo
<ochosi> then the way is paved for future updates in terms of looks and functionality
<ochosi> and we might get some (useful) feedback too
<bluesabre> yeah
<bluesabre> might be difficult to get in, and maybe not
<ochosi> so imo you can release it as is now
<ochosi> and then we can start the process of getting it in, and into our packageset
<bluesabre> I'll work on it a bit still
<ochosi> dunno, have little experience with that
<ochosi> you mean now?
<bluesabre> probably, or at least tonight
<ochosi> cause if you mean "in the near future", better release it now ;)
<bluesabre> lol
<ochosi> that was were we left things last time, iirc
<bluesabre> true
<ochosi> what do you wanna improve?
<bluesabre> upload frequency?
<ochosi> haha
<ochosi> yeah, in terms of xfpanel-switch though
<bluesabre> I'll do it
<bluesabre> bug me about it if no action by this time tomorrow ;)
<bluesabre> going to work on it now
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> under the hood or UI wise though?
<bluesabre> probably both
<bluesabre> I'll get it to something I'd want to blog about
<ochosi> hm, anything i can help you with?
<ochosi> it'd have to be within the scope of 20mins though
<ochosi> after that i gotta get some sleep
<bluesabre> if you have any ui tweaks you'd like to make, go for it
<ochosi> if you're not adding functionality, i'm not sure tbh :)
<ochosi> other than an "import" button, i can't really think of much
<ochosi> or an infobar saying "your current configuration hasn't been saved. [save] [x]"
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> but that'd mean somehow checking whether it has been saved
<bluesabre> can timestamp the xml file
<ochosi> sure, but then it'd still be almost always visible
<ochosi> oh, or did you mean something like "you haven't backed up your configuration in a week. [save now] [x]" ?
<bluesabre> the message would only be displayed when this app is open
<bluesabre> so if there are unsaved changes, can notify
<bluesabre> or maybe not do that at all for this release
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that's why i meant maybe this is for later cause it needs changes under the hood too
<bluesabre> yeah
<ochosi> so anyway, i got no ideas how to do this basic UI significantly better for the moment
<ochosi> the app is still a bit rough/dumb, and so is the UI
<bluesabre> definitely not release ready
<bluesabre> lots of buttons do nothing
<bluesabre> particularly saving
<ochosi> oh
<bluesabre> was pretty sure I made more progress than this
<ochosi> that's interesting
<bluesabre> :\
<ochosi> didn't it "work at some point"?
<bluesabre> pretty sure
<Unit193> I was sure bluesabre was patching cdimage/livecd-rootfs.
<bluesabre> I'll work on this
<bluesabre> er, not that
<knome> haha
<bluesabre> Unit193: I don't know what changes are needed there
<Unit193> That's OK, nor do I.
<bluesabre> nice
<bluesabre> we'll need to start asking around then
<bluesabre> ochosi: I'll get it up to par tonight
<ochosi> this is why workitems should really be assigned to individuals rather than teams
<ochosi> i mean the -core issue
<knome> YES
<ochosi> (xfpanel-switch too though)
<ochosi> Unit193: you ok with getting assigned to the xubuntu-core workitem?
<knome> being assigned a work item shouldn't mean that you do 100% of the work either, just that you are the one that oversees the progress
<ochosi> exactly
<knome> (except maybe when it's a specific task, eg. a bug or a new feature)
<ochosi> bluesabre: btw, it also doesn't set an appicon yet, so no icon in tabwin
<Unit193> Eh, I'll likely put it off as long as I can, tbh.
<knome> Unit193, pick another work item then? [:
 * ochosi takes that as a "yes"
<knome> ochosi, you'll take anything as a yes...
<bluesabre> ochosi: yeah
<bluesabre> will fix it all
<bluesabre> pretty sure it was past this stage :D
<ochosi> bluesabre: oh also, isn't the x-d-s workitem already done?
<bluesabre> yeah, why do you ask?
<bluesabre> :D
<ochosi> heh
<knome> bluesabre, it isn't marked as such?
<bluesabre> knome: you must have an outdated page, reload once in a while
<bluesabre> ;)
<ochosi> knome: i think "he asked knowingly"
 * bluesabre is being mean
<knome> hah :P
<knome> ochosi, you know, his wife likes photography
<knome> ochosi, could be holidays
<ochosi> lol
<ochosi> that is just too befitting
<ochosi> yeah, i think he's a man of the world, he's been around
<knome> yeah, he's always going
<ochosi> bluesabre: let us know if you need context ;))
<knome> i bet she goes too
 * bluesabre is lost
<bluesabre> again
<knome> bluesabre, you STILL haven't watched that sketch
<bluesabre> oh wait
<bluesabre> I think you gave me this one to watch once
<bluesabre> its been a while
<knome> yes...
<bluesabre> didn't absorb it completely
<ochosi> bluesabre: try again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDFGa0juCM
<knome> ooh, absorb
<bluesabre> didn't marinade in it for a few years
<knome> says he knowingly
<ochosi> 4mins not wasted
<ochosi> knome: yeah, he's a go-er
<ochosi> bluesabre: good luck with xfpanel-switch, gotta hit the sack
<bluesabre> seeya ochosi: pull from the repo again tomorrow and give it a spin
<ochosi> will, and i hope it'll spin!
<ochosi> ;)
<knome> ooh, spin
<knome> i'm off as well
<knome> nighty and ttyl
<bluesabre> saving fixed
<bluesabre> cleared out deprecated widgets
<bluesabre> progress!
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-21
<Unit193> There go all the icons.
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> gtk
<Unit193> Can't we keep them and just ignore the stupid deprecation warnings?
<Unit193> (Or port to Qt. :-----D)
<bluesabre> it's just 2 button icons, so could be worse
<Unit193> Ah.  And yeah, just look how they ruined Remmina.
<Unit193> "It's better this way!" :D
<Unit193> ..I'm on -devel, whoops.
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> slickymaster: And, forgot to say.  Good then! \o/
<bluesabre> import and export implemented
<bluesabre> ... hackily
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2015-July/001143.html
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> expecting some breakage
<bluesabre> Unit193: anything else you'd expect here, do you want to be in AUTHORS for your desktop file contribution?  Where is our old history for this thing, or did I do the gui myself? https://code.launchpad.net/~xfpanel-switch-dev/xfpanel-switch/trunk
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> ochosi: should be good to test now, enjoy
 * bluesabre goes to bed
<Unit193> Oh, good night.  And whatever makes you feel best, tbh.
<micahg> Unit193: I can help with livecd-rootfs
<micahg> I have to know what  you want though :)
<micahg> as for the gcc-5 rebuild, I was going to see what we needed
<Unit193> That one looked like it'd be the easier one to patch.  Well, xubuntu-core is "all" we needed to add, soo.
<Unit193> Yeah, that's mostly fine for us.
<Unit193> Thanks for offering too, micahg!
<Noskcaj> places-plugin is already fixed, and the only actual gcc issue seems to be libopenraw
<knome> ochosi, i just added the possibility to show/hide the whiteboard...
<knome> slickymasterWork, i just added the possibility to show/hide the whiteboard...
<slickymasterWork> let me check
<slickymasterWork> knome, getting an Internal Server Error
<knome> oh right
<knome> look at your email again then :)
<slickymasterWork> no, wait
<slickymasterWork> was accessing yesterday url
<knome> yep
<slickymasterWork> now disabling javascript :P
<knome> yw, but the whiteboard is hidden then
<slickymasterWork> or better enabling it
<slickymasterWork> yeah :P
<knome> because it's a bit too obtrusive to show it all by default
<slickymasterWork> I prefer it showing the whiteboard
<knome> well, you can expand all, then show all whiteboards
<knome> and consider if that was the view you saw with no js by default
<slickymasterWork> consider in what aspect?
<knome> consider what it would feel inside you
<knome> would it make you warm
<knome> or would it make you puke of the information overload
<slickymasterWork> you're crazy
<slickymasterWork> lol
<knome> me? crazy? nooo...
<slickymasterWork> just a pure aesthetically point of view 
<slickymasterWork> it gives some color to the wall of text/data
<knome> the whiteboard?
<knome> or the puke?
<slickymasterWork> :P
<knome> but yeah, i've been considering the visual aspec too
<knome> +t
<knome> there's something that doesn't work as is
<slickymasterWork> what?
<knome> i can't exactly pinpoint it yet
<knome> but it might be better if the different specs were their own tables
<knome> and there was some padding between them
<knome> that would also give some kind of rhythm for the page
<slickymasterWork> perhaps 
<slickymasterWork> but it could also make it heavier - the different specs being their own tables
<knome> and that wouldn't be a bad move technically either, it'd help the modularity a bit
<slickymasterWork> it could turn out to be a trade off
<knome> well, if i separate them, the tables are still easy to put back together
<knome> so maybe i'll do that change next..
<slickymasterWork> trial and error proccess ;)
<knome> hmm, heh
<knome> now that looks chaotic...
<slickymasterWork> yeah
<slickymasterWork> too much
<knome> well the bars are misaligne etc
<knome> let me fix that first :P
<knome> (and do some other changes while i'm at it...)
<slickymasterWork> :)
<slickymasterWork> I'll check it after lunch knome 
<knome> sure
<knome> bon appetit
<slickymasterWork> dank
<knome> (i'm also eating as we talk, bad habits!)
<slickymasterWork> lol
<knome> pleia2, remind me again, was there something about the SSL thing we wanted to check before contacting IS (or did i already promise to do that and forgot?)
<pleia2> knome: nope
<flocculant> hello channel
<Reklan> howdo
<flocculant> hi Reklan 
<knome> pleia2, ok, i'll follow up with IS on that today then
<knome> hello flocculant, Reklan 
<flocculant> hi knome 
<knome> soo... what's up?
<flocculant> only stuff
 * slickymasterWork didn't see any changes in the status page
<slickymasterWork> ... just sayin'....
<knome> slickymasterWork, that's because you looked too late
<slickymasterWork> lol
<flocculant> that'll be a Y in the day then
<knome> i did the <tbody> to <table> migration already
<knome> but it didn't work
<knome> well i mean visually
<knome> so i reverted the visual style
<flocculant> so 
<flocculant> I have seen  talk in logs in some blueprint/status replacement
 * slickymasterWork will go with knome's experienced position on the visual/aesthetic aspect of it all ;) 
<flocculant> oh right ...
<flocculant> that
<knome> slickymasterWork, i'll have to count on you on the puke though
<slickymasterWork> bah
<knome> flocculant, would you like to contribute to xubuntu? d:
<flocculant> I could possibly spend some of my time with QA stuff 
<flocculant> IF there is a need
<knome> like... half of your life?
<flocculant> lol
<ochosi> bluesabre: meh, parole currently segfaults (even with xv selected as backend) when closing it
<ochosi> knome: nice, so we can soon ship pdf offline docs per release?
<ochosi> also, nice work on the status tracker!
<knome> i guess so..
<ochosi> some hover-style for the overview list might help, currently it's not always easy to see (especially on wide screens) which progressbar is associated with which blueprint
<ochosi> and yeah, i did like the burndown, but i guess that one would be the hardest to replicate ;)
<jjfrv8> evening, ochosi. Did you see my question a while back about working on the thunar docs?
<ochosi> hey jjfrv8 
<ochosi> oh sorry, yeah, that was a longer while ago already, right?
<ochosi> was on and off a lot
<jjfrv8> kinda
<ochosi> hence didn't follow up on everything maybe
<jjfrv8> well, I went ahead and started working on them anyway, hope that was okay
<ochosi> sure!
<ochosi> so the green parts you've worked on?
<jjfrv8> mostly
<jjfrv8> i'm kind of stopped on the plugins, though
<jjfrv8> xubuntu seems to have integrated all of them but I"m not sure about other distros
<ochosi> that looks really nice, judging from the first impression!
<jjfrv8> ok cool.
<ochosi> right, so what would be the problem if other distros haven't?
<ochosi> i mean either way, it's useful to have docs for them
<jjfrv8> well I put two screenshots in of the File and Edit menus, which in xubuntu have the plugins built in. So I don't know if it's okay to show them that way
<ochosi> oh that
<ochosi> imo that's minor
<ochosi> theoretically you can uninstall the plugins in xubuntu, but it's really better to have your updated shots than the current outdated ones
<jjfrv8> so maybe just put a disclaimer in that one might have to install the plugins if they're not already available?
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> that's definitely enough
<jjfrv8> the links to the plugins upstream docs seem to be pretty out of date to.
<ochosi> or even too much, for just a few menu items
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i'm not surprised
<ochosi> anyway, gotta get some sleep
<ochosi> i'll try to do some closer review soon, but tomorrow i'll be afk
<jjfrv8> sounds good. thanks.
<ochosi> after the review, we can plan merging the parts that are ready asap
<knome> hmmh
<knome> now i can build all translations into pdf's too with the makefile
<knome> boring :)
<ochosi> knome: awesome :)
<knome> https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=26794 (requesting SSL for xubuntu.org)
<knome> Unit193, PI-PI-PI-PING!!!!
<knome> Unit193, see above.'
<Unit193> Wow, good timing.
<knome> Unit193, check out the docs branch makefiles
<knome> Unit193, make pdf and make translate-pdf should both work
<knome> (for desktop-guide, make pdf from root calls make pdf, but translate isn't linked)
<bluesabre> ochosi: yup
<bluesabre> poor poor parole
<bluesabre> poorole
<bluesabre> poo role?
<bluesabre> :|
<knome> :|
<knome> TMI
<bluesabre> lol
<bluesabre> ochosi: didja check out xfpanel-switch?
<knome> huhu
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-22
<bluesabre> oh yeah
<bluesabre> August 6th - Ubuntu 14.04.3
<knome> hrhr, productive night
<jjfrv8> indeed!
<knome> for you too :)
<knome> nice to see you around again
<jjfrv8> been lurking
<knome> ochosi, there's now "some hover-style"
<knome> pleia2, id you don't mind, you could reply to the people on the G+ list about the progress (by linking to the mail or in your own words if you wish)
<knome> pleia2, ahem, other question that i've just forgot the answer to... was there anything stopping us from publishing the derivative guidelines (except maybe the package list)
<pleia2> knome: updated g+ thread, and the derivative guidelines are fine aside from the package list
<krytarik> knome: The outcome of my review of the docs' PDF addition (slightly excessive bzr diff): http://paste.openstack.org/show/TqRvKDxmr9moJBkJD66C/
<ochosi> bluesabre: i did, but only briefly
<ochosi> bluesabre: works nicely! i really dig it :) the only small thing that could be improved is the "apply" icon. not sure that one is really ideal. plus the proposed filename for exporting is currently "Unnamed" instead of Backup_2015_7-22_07_15_30.tar.gz (or whatever our file-format was again)
<ochosi> bluesabre: from my pov a 0.1 can still be released and we can tweak those things for 0.2
<ochosi> bluesabre: also, interesting diff in "date modified" for the same panel setup that was exported and imported again: http://i.imgur.com/KQbmw9R.png
<ochosi> bluesabre: and as a last note, maybe ctrl+w/q or alt+c could close the window (or esc)
<ochosi> bluesabre: other than that, premium work!
<Luyin> hi knome 
<Luyin> knome you asked for XSLT on the mailing list. here I am ;)
<knome> Luyin, oh hello! the branch is lp:xubuntu-docs and the stylesheet at desktop-guide/libs/xubuntu-docbook-pdf.xsl
<knome> Luyin, i don't have a clear idea what we should do with it (yet), but if you have ideas, feel free to experiment around :)
<Luyin> knome well I'm not that into the material, and atm busy with organising my wedding, but I'll be glad to help from october on :)
<Luyin> I'm going to subscribe in launchpad and keep watching out. if I can do anything in between, I'll do
<knome> Luyin, great! thanks for your interest, and congratulations on the wedding :)
<Luyin> thx, and yw ;)
<knome> slickymasterWork, how do we want to work with the different paper sizes?
<knome> export all languages in all paper sizes, or keep up a list of preferred paper sizes (either or both) for certain languages?
<slickymasterWork> I think the later would be the best option knome 
<knome> Unit193, i have some Makefile hacking for you... see slickymasterWork's comment above
<astraljava> Could it be made dynamic, so that people could select which size they'd want, and the server would generate it for them?
<knome> "the server"?
<knome> [:
<astraljava> Wait, where is this documentation?
<knome> i'm talking about shipping these with the package
<astraljava> Ohh, right.
<knome> also, dynamic is meh
<astraljava> My bad.
<knome> it's mostly NA people who want something else than A4
<astraljava> Dynamic is super awesome, but yeah doesn't really work here. :D
<astraljava> The way I see it, they must be forced to the metric system anyway, why not start here? :D (granted, I have no idea whether paper sizes relate to the metric/imperial struggle)
<slickymasterWork> ~yes, I really don't believe there's a wide 'market' for other sizes other than the most used
<qwebirc846751> damn connection
<knome> at least it's a non-problem here to produce various sizes
<knome> so considering that, we could just do a4 and letter for all
<knome> en needs both
<knome> es needs both
<knome> fr needs both
<knome> what's left? fi and pt for a4
<knome> oh and de likely needs both
<knome> so it's not like we're building dozens of letter versions in vain
 * slickymasterWork agrees
 * astraljava wonders why fi would need both?
<astraljava> Oh, sorry. Doesn't say so.
<knome> astraljava, it wouldn't, but it's more work to NOT produce the letter size
<astraljava> Right, because of the stupid Makefile?
<knome> who knows if american finnish people want to read the documentation on paper
<astraljava> Hahaha!
<knome> just that we should maintain the list for languages that do not need both size
<knome> +s
<knome> and read that at build time
<astraljava> Yes, understood.
<knome> pleia2, slickymasterWork: wondering if we really need the canonical copyright statement for the docs
<knome> even our website says: Â© 2012â2015 The Xubuntu community. Xubuntu and Canonical are registered trademarks of Canonical Ltd.
<knome> (yes, i've silently went and changed that at some point)
<knome> anyway, for anybody interested: http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/docs-pdfexport/xubuntu-documentation.pdf
<Reklan> knome, thats looking really good.
<pleia2> knome: I'd use the same wording as on the site
<ochosi> knome: i'd say a4-only is fine for de
<ochosi> and yay, that looks yummy! nice work!
 * pleia2 gets sent photos of xubuntu being used in a clinic in uganda
<pleia2> <3 <3
<pleia2> I'll see if these can be shared
<ochosi> pleia2: sounds great! so a third "xubuntu at..." article? :)
<pleia2> ochosi: they're affiliated with one we previously interviewed, so likely not, but if they non-profit makes them public I'd share them on social media
<ochosi> oh ok
<knome> pleia2, i'll do "The Xubuntu documentation team", because... yeah, the "community" doesn't own the copyright
<knome> probably better change the wording on site to "The Xubuntu team" too
<knome> or sth
<pleia2> knome: yeah
<knome> bbl
<krytarik> knome: I'm guessing you overlooked this change -- sed -i 's@\(>The contributors to\) this translation of the \(documentation are:</\)@\1 the various translations of this \2@' fo/C.fo -- here?: http://paste.openstack.org/show/TqRvKDxmr9moJBkJD66C/
<knome> krytarik, maybe.
<krytarik> You can blame bzr for that, of course! :P
<knome> krytarik, another thing i think we should do is separate the translation target so targets like translate-pdf can peruse that
<knome> krytarik, i'll be working with the branch today and i will get to the diff at some point, but if you don't mind doing a merge request for the rest of your change (and why not the translation thingy too), i'd love to see one :)
<krytarik> Oh, I was hoping you'd merge those in with the rest of the stuff. :P
<knome> ehh :)
<knome> as i said, i'll do that at some point
<knome> that is, if you don't do the MP
<knome> what do you thin about splitting the translation stuff?
<knome> +k
<knome> if we set it up wisely, we can avoid creating translations for xml twice
<knome> question:
<knome> if all calls: clean html translate translate-pdf
<knome> and both translate and translate-pdf call the same target, does it simply get done twice?
<knome> or is the makefile wise enough to avoid doing the same target another time?
<krytarik> The output format for both is different - and another one for each print size.
<knome> xml isn't
<knome> wait
<knome> it is
<knome> bah
<krytarik> Reg. that, '--stringparam paper.type "$$paper"' is missing from the 'pdf' and 'translate-pdf' targets.
<knome> mmh
<krytarik> If we could somehow create HTMLs from 'fo- files, however.
<knome> emmmh.
<krytarik> * 'fo'
<knome> i don't think that would be sensible though
<knome> why add one more processing step if you can avoid it
<krytarik> Because right now, as you mentioned, it triplicates.
<knome> only duplicates
<krytarik> 1 HTML, 1 A4, 1 US Letter.
<knome> i also fear that even if doing fo -> HTML would be possible, it would mean changes in the HTML output -> need to change the CSS
<knome> that's life
<knome> i wonder if we could hack the fo file
<knome> to first allow for an A4 export, then US letter
<krytarik> Yeah.
<knome> most likely yes
<knome> page-width="8.5in" page-height="11in"
<knome> occurs once per page
<krytarik> Lovely.
<knome> then the .fo file is ~765kB, not sure how fast grepping that is
<knome> well, compared to simply creating another fo..
<krytarik> lol
<knome> oops, i found a bug in mousepad
<knome> open multiple windows
<knome> enable word wrap in one
<knome> -> all documents are word wrapped (as expected i guess)
<knome> then go to another window
<knome> the word wrap item in the menu shows a wrong state (eg. as if word wrap was disabled)
<knome> hmm
<knome> now it doesn't happen
<knome> no it does
<knome> and when you then select that, nothing happens
<knome> but the state is now correct
<krytarik> Just the state indicator doesn't update immediately, it seems.
<knome> yep, that
<knome> ok, new makefiles pushed
<knome> thanks
<krytarik> Well, at least I won't have to do an MP now. :P
<knome> yep :P
<krytarik> knome: First, http://paste.openstack.org/show/6IpT3KcvwH83hljx2MuN/ - and I'm working on the other thing.
<knome> uhhh
<knome> still? :P
<krytarik> Well, that's the thing with not testing stuff properly. :D
<knome> noooo, is THAT it? (;
<knome> i have it changed locally, when you have more incoming stuff i'll commit+push
<knome> so one interesting question...
<knome> droid sans doesn't have italic, should we continue using it but drop in the open sans italic style, or switch completely?
<knome> and for future reference, we might need to include more droid fonts if we had some languages that didn't use latin alphabet
<knome> but that's a stretch...
<krytarik> knome: Switch completely from Droid Sans, no; make italic use something fitting, yes.
<knome> open sans is derived from droid sans, so...
<krytarik> Do they always look the same though?
<knome> not at all
<knome> but the italic style should be close enough to not look awkward
<knome> yeah... we have no problems with this
<knome> it's a perfect hoax
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/docs-pdfexport/droidsans-with-opensans-italic.png
<flocculant> odd wording
<knome> which one?
<knome> hoax? :)
<flocculant> to the most common 
<flocculant> yea - hoax is pretty odd :p
<knome> well... we have this bzr branch...
<flocculant> mmm
<flocculant> ok - so I had a few guesses at that branch name 
<knome> bzr branch lp:xubuntu-docs
<flocculant> oh good 
<flocculant> all that ssh key stuff again 
<knome> :)
<knome> funee
<flocculant> no keys at all here
<knome> need help?
<flocculant> nah
<flocculant> knome: ok - so what file is that in? 
<knome> desktop-guide/C/index.xml
<flocculant> ta
<flocculant> looked in there - couldn't see it ... 
<flocculant> looked again 
<knome> heh
<flocculant> https://code.launchpad.net/~flocculant/xubuntu-docs/xubuntu-docs
 * knome checks at some point
<knome> stupid xsl processing
<flocculant> thanks - I'll conveniently forget quickly about doing doc stuff 
<krytarik> knome: There you go - decided for 'bzr diff' still: http://paste.openstack.org/show/PtdjFdz6lLMoCYhVjnnO/
<knome> ookay
<knome> let's see if i can figure this out - i've made some changes to the Makefile myself since this and i'm also dropping the test target
<krytarik> Heh, and here I updated it for you too. :P
<knome> are pushed now
<knome> flocculant, your changes as well
<flocculant> okey doke
<knome> now, that is
<flocculant> time to wander off now 
<flocculant> night all 
<knome> good night!
<knome> krytarik, wondering if the A4 version should be without -A4 in the filename, but let's leave that for another day
<krytarik> Yeah, I wondered about that too, since it's the default now.
<krytarik> However, I decided that it's better as it is.
<krytarik> Because the reader doesn't know what's the default.
<knome> i guess so
<krytarik> Next up is linking them somehow. :P
<knome> yyep, just added a work item for that
<knome> i have this crazy idea
<knome> to make a full fledged table to the front page
<krytarik> Eww.
<krytarik> :D
<knome> "Finnish    View in HTML    PDF  A4  US letter"
<knome> or a subpage for the front page
<knome> that would mean no extra magic would be needed for the website
<knome> "See all formats and languages"
<knome> view?
<knome> whatever..
<krytarik> Yeah, we'll figure it out.
<knome> or Unit193.
<krytarik> However, I earlier thought about linking them from the respective doc version's main page, at the top.
<knome> like http://docs.xubuntu.org/1504/ ?
<knome> or like http://docs.xubuntu.org/1504/fi/index.html ?
<krytarik> The latter.
<knome> yeah, why not
<knome> one *more* thing
<knome> the "welcome" section is technically the "abstract" for the documentation
<knome> and while that isn't so crap for the website, it's a bit awkward how it's presented on the PDF
<knome> so maybe we need to reconsider the technicality of that
<krytarik> Yep, I agree.
<krytarik> knome: Btw, reading your mail finally, I'm not sure we want to *ship* all those PDFs too, rather than just make them available on the website - after all, the docs *are* already offline available at that point.
<knome> but not in a printable form
<knome> i think ochosi wants to ship them too
<knome> and i don't think that's at least a bad idea
<knome> but i don't have strong feelings about it
<knome> i'm happy that the export is there now
<knome> let's allow users to use it as they please :)
<knome> - even to the point of printing it out
<knome> i know we wanted to get rid of that, but maybe we should reintroduce the version number on the documentation
<knome> not only the startpage
<knome> actually, maybe we can do it in a way that is invisible for the web
<knome> but visible in the PDF
<krytarik> Yeah, print version, I agree.
<knome> yep
<knome> useless in the HTML version
<krytarik> I mean, reg. shipping the PDFs.
<knome> aha :)
<krytarik> Yeah, was busy with deleting emails. :P
<knome> and the PDF version does give some benefits over the HTML version
<knome> some like that
<knome> for example continue-where-you-left
<krytarik> Yeah, noticed.
<knome> and the chapter index can be more useful
<krytarik> Mhm.
<knome> and yeah, printing out even parts of it - a troubleshooting guide or so, so you can checkmark what you've done
<knome> and if listing one more target for buildtime is what we need to do to ship it... then yeah, no reason not to
<krytarik> Can't we specify the version number for the footer or something?
<knome> or just the verso page
<knome> (the one(s) after the title (secto) page)
<knome> see, i'm all too deep into docbook/xsl(t)/fo
<krytarik> Neck deep really, yes. :P
<knome> stuff happens.
<krytarik> knome: http://docs.xubuntu.org/1504/C/index.html â "Xubuntu Documentation <release>" - problem solved. :P
<knome> :P
<krytarik> I think there is nothing wrong with showing it like that.
<knome> but then that will be the PDF title
<knome> which is not the most ideal imo
<krytarik> Bleh, yes.
<knome> so rather something that can be output on the PDF easily
<knome> but that is left out from HTML
<knome> or hidden
<krytarik> Actually, that'd "Xubuntu <release> Documentation".
<krytarik> + be
<knome> that's even worse
<knome> there's no way to translate that to finnish
<krytarik> lol
<knome> both versions would have to be translated to "Xubuntu dokumentaatio versiolle X"
<knome> if you wanted to be very correct...
<krytarik> So, no difference... :D
<knome> well...
<knome> i talked about this with pl-eia2
<knome> "right-click X" -> "napsauta X:Ã¤Ã¤ hiiren oikealla painikkeella"
<knome> welcome to finland.
<krytarik> Uff, yeah.
<knome> and if X is a button, it would better to be "napsauta painikeeta X hiiren oikealla painikkeella"
<krytarik> Enough with that already! :P
<knome> *painiketta
<knome> just had to correct that error...:P
<krytarik> Yeah, I get that. :P
<krytarik> knome: Just noticed, again I think, the page title of  http://docs.xubuntu.org/1504/  is "Welcome to Xubuntu!", while the page *header* is "Welcome to Xubuntu 15.04 Documentation!".
<knome> heh
<krytarik> In that context.
<knome> true.
<knome> maybe the title should be "Xubuntu Documentation"
<krytarik> Yeah, at least.
<knome> that is, the <title>
<krytarik> That is, "Welcome to Xubuntu Documentation!"
<knome> this is hard because
<knome> this isn't the documentation
<knome> the documentation is the official documentation link
<knome> this is just the startpage for the docs/support/getting involved info
<krytarik> But the header states so! :D
<knome> mhm...
<krytarik> I think that's just too picky. :P
<krytarik> Both should refer to the same anyway.
<knome> mmh
<krytarik> Speaking of which, "The Official Documentation provides information to the most common issues with Xubuntu." :P
<knome> yep, i noticed!
<krytarik> Consistency FTL! :D
<knome> that paragraph should make more sense anyway
<knome> it was just a placeholder when i put it there
<knome> but then... life happened :P
<krytarik> Yeah, could be more elaborate, I guess.
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-23
<ochosi> bluesabre: hey, what's the status of our artwork update? still stuck? also, a gentle reminder for releasing xfpanel-switch ;) and who should be poked for finalizing your ubiquity patch?
<bluesabre> ochosi: artwork: still stuck I believe, panel-switch: will get to it soon (on holiday now), ubiquity: the code is in trunk, so if they ever release, then we get it
<bluesabre> micahg: any news on the xubuntu-artwork package or packageset? :)
<Unit193> Crap.
<bluesabre> Ew.
<knome> pleia2, you have this work item "Get first batch of flyers printed" - is that on a commercial printer or at home?
<knome> http://xubuntu.org/dev/derivatives/
<pleia2> knome: I think I can't do it on my own printer, since alignment or something, so the intent was going with vistaprint.com
<knome> pleia2, that's why i'm asking - there are ways to fix the alignment, and i have to do that anyway...
<knome> stupid ssh conf :(
<pleia2> ok, well intend is vistaprint anyway :)
<knome> ok, then nothing
<pleia2> nothing?
<knome> i mean, if the work item is for vistaprint... then i have nothing more to ask :)
<knome> except maybe that do you need something?
<pleia2> oh, gotcha
<pleia2> nah, I'll ask the team for $$ reimbursement once I have a final price
<knome> yeah
<knome> and you have the PDFs and all?
<pleia2> vistaprint has sales often, so I need to find the sweet spot of when I have time + good sale ;)
<knome> haha
<pleia2> aiming for september
<pleia2> I probably do need the pdfs, or instructions for building
<knome> ok
<knome> i'll document it all today
<knome> or tomorrow
<knome> or sth
<sorinello> hello knome. How's life ?
<knome> steady
<sorinello> what are you working on these days ? asking about xubuntu
<knome> it would be best to look at the IRC channel backlog tbh
<sorinello> ok
<knome> sorinello, are you planning to get involved?
<sorinello> knome, to get involved in xubuntu ?
<knome> yes
<sorinello> well I'd like to, but my C level is almost 0, and I don't yet understand the echosystem, packages,versions, stuff like that
<knome> you don't need to understand pretty much anything what you mentioned to help
<knome> there are a lot of non-programming tasks to do
<sorinello> my background is mostly in Automated Testing, and as a language I work with Java, so I don't think that any of my skills could be useful
<knome> see above ^
<knome> i think the "i don't think i have the skills to be useful" is a wrong way to approach
<sorinello> well I've tried "getting in" from several angles, none of them seemed to be very productive. But I'm sure that's because I haven't tried hardenough
<knome> what ELSE than programming are you interested in?
<sorinello> is there a xubuntu wiki where I can read around stuff to understand better the flows ?
<flocculant> sorinello: so you say you've got background in Auto Testing - maybe you could lend a hand with testing, we don't have automated testing - and it's unlikely at the moment that we will in the near future
<knome> sorinello, what kind of flows are you talking about?
<sorinello> well naturally I'd say testing, but testing an OS is different than testing a web application or DB testing. First I'd need to understand how Linux works :)
<flocculant> well ... 
<sorinello> knome, flows like the product lifecycle, how xubuntu is built, external dependencies integrated, etc
<knome> (wrong!)
<flocculant> you don't actually need to know how linux works to help with testing
<knome> sorinello, you don't need to understand that to help with xubuntu really
<flocculant> you just need to be able to read
<sorinello> also, triaging requires knowledge of the porjects, modules, where this bug goes to, etc. Cos if I start triaging wrong, then I'd only create mess
<knome> sorinello, there's a beginning to everything - you seem to think that everybody expects you to be an expert on a subject if you start working with it - wrong
<pleia2> sorinello: also, that's why we're here :) I ask questions about where to submit bugs, etc all the time while testing things
<pleia2> sorinello: so I'd totally encourage you to check out our testing stuff at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ (click on Wily Daily, then look for the Xubuntu images) and then just ask here if you have questions
<pleia2> I'll even ask questions like "is this supposed to work this way?" and "what features should I be testing today?" along with where to report bugs, like what pachage I should submit to if the icons look funny
<pleia2> but we absolutely need more testers, this cycle we're really struggling
<knome> yes please, there are no stupid questions - except those that aren't asked...
<pleia2> sorinello: given your background, it's also worth mentioning, that Ubuntu has a functional testing tool called autopilot for automated testing, we've never had a ton of luck with it but it's been a couple years since we've looked so it may be interesting to you to look at it :)
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Autopilot
<knome> there are people who have investigated automated testing here too
<knome> like dkessel
<pleia2> more eyes always help
 * pleia2 back2work
<knome> hf
<sorinello> thanks guys for the support. I'll take a look at the links you gave me
<knome> no problem, and don't hesitate to ask for help.
<pleia2> where should we move this to? https://bugs.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website/+bug/1475865
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1475865 in Xubuntu Website "system language setting goes wrong after installing system" [Undecided,New]
<knome> ubiquity?
<pleia2> perhaps!
<flocculant> don't think so - not sure where though
<flocculant> appears that it the installing works 
<flocculant> just obviously not Xubuntu website :)
<flocculant> given the op has dupe bugs for the same thing - I'd just mark the website one invalid
<dkessel> pleia2: given that xfce4 i slowly migrating to gtk3 we should have better chances at getting autopilot tests at some place in time ;)
<dkessel> sorinello: it would be great if you could help! if you want to give autopilot tests a try and if there's anything you need to know about autopilot, and i don't know it, i am sure we can find someone who knows :) just ask me, or ask in #ubuntu-autopilot or #ubuntu-quality. keep in mind that i am only reading irc 1-3 times a day though ;)
<pleia2> dkessel: that's what I was thinking
<dkessel> knome: i got some reply regarding the infrastructure for the test automation server. if we can make any suggestion regarding the hardware we might need and/or hosting we want, we could possibly speed the process up.
<dkessel> also, pleia2 ^: if there's any HP stuff we could use... :D
<knome> dkessel, would some amazon aws do the job?
<knome> i was talking about it the other day with balloons
<dkessel> possibly, if there are way of scaling things up if there's demand? i mean, we would probably not need much at the beginning, and if it is a success, more power might be needed. but honestly, i don't really know how much power those tests need and how long they would run on "typical" hardware.
<knome> yes, i believe that's exactly what you can do with aws
<knome> and i also believe that there shouldn't be "any" problems with getting the funds from the community fund
<knome> especially if it's a setup for multiple flavors
<dkessel> Sounds good then. DanChapman wrote he will send an update on what he did so far, so I will wait for that first before I suggest that. I guess we should communicate with other flavors to inform them about plans and so we have support for getting the funds.
<Unit193> Oh, I suppose I should actually ask here.  Anyone have issues with fglrx on wily?  I've downgraded for now.
<astraljava> Haven't even attempted the upgrade, yet.
<astraljava> But I have AMD graphics on my laptop, so could try live usb at some point.
<knome> Unit193, you like it, IS said they'll "just enable SSL [on the subdomains]" and "prepare ... SSL ... on xubuntu.org"
<Unit193> :D
<knome> https://rt.ubuntu.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=26794 for the full reply
<Unit193> astraljava: 2:15.200-0ubuntu7 is the good one.
<knome> bluesabre, i'll pinch your cheek hard if this DVD doesn't work with parole either.
<knome> it does... kind of
<astraljava> Okay, cheers.
<Noskcaj> What's the command to check if a binary uses certain symbols?
<Noskcaj> I want to see if libopenraw needs a transition (it's only r-dep is tumbler)
<Noskcaj> *transition for gcc5
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-24
<Noskcaj-school> bluesabre: Did you end up making the launcher for sgt-puzzles? If not, do you mind if i make it? I need some small project for a software design class
<micahg> bluesabre: sorry, been a busy week, on my list, is Sunday night ok?
<Noskcaj> lp:~noskcaj/+junk/sgt-puzzles-launcher
<Unit193> https://code.launchpad.net/~noskcaj/+junk/sgt-puzzles-launcher
<Unit193> Noskcaj: Doesn't check to see if it's installed, nor any error messages if button is clicked and the package isn't installed.
<bluesabre> micahg: no problem, I'm enjoying my vacation this weekend, so no hurry here :)
<bluesabre> Noskcaj: looks like a good start
<jcjordyn120> hello
<Noskcaj> Unit193, I'll get to that later (busy this weekend), although couldn't that be done on the packaging end to start with?
<ochosi> bluesabre: sure, next week is ok and enjoy your holidays. just don't want to forget about that and finally mark a few workitems done
<knome> hey ochosi 
<ochosi> hey knome 
<ochosi> what up?
<knome> nothing much
<knome> just doing the messing around ;)
<ochosi> oh ok :)
<ochosi> i'm already half-way to bed, that's why i asked ;)
<knome> aha
<knome> good night then
<ochosi> thanks, u2! :)
<ochosi> will be around tomorrow a bit during the day btw
<ochosi> will try to catch up with what needs catchups
<knome> mmh, i should be around tomorrow around noon too
<ochosi> ok cool
<knome> so... just ping me
<ochosi> yep, will do
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-25
<krytarik> knome: The product of this night's work on the docs - and yes, one can avoid *translating* it twice, I may not have got you right at first: http://paste.openstack.org/show/pgTMDd937sYjZhUaeO5K/
<krytarik> This one puts PDF links at the top of every page that has a normal header (i.e. not the credits-license one), if they were generated before.
<krytarik> That is, at build time - if no PDF creation, no links.
<ochosi> knome: ping
<Noskcaj> ochosi, Do you know what else i'd have to add to the sgt-puzzles-launcher before we could start using it?
<ochosi> hey Noskcaj 
<ochosi> i haven't had time to try it yet
<Noskcaj> hey
<Noskcaj> It's just a 6x6 grid of the games with there icons
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> i saw Unit193 mentioned some concerns, have you addressed those already?
<Noskcaj> All the sgt-puzzles are installed at once, so i was hoping a dep in the packaging would be enough
<Noskcaj> It definitely needs it's own icon, but other than that and maybe translation support, it should just be a case of packaging it and making the sgt desktop files notshowin xfce
<Unit193> It'd still should error or check for the applications though.
<ochosi> yeah, that ^ makes sense to me
<ochosi> another thing that would be nice is type-ahead search for the game-name
<ochosi> currently you can only navigate with the cursor buttons
<ochosi> i presume you're using gtkbuttons there, maybe an iconview would be better, it should have that feature automatically
<ochosi> or you could filter the results on keyboard-typing ;)
<Noskcaj> I'll get the checks in soon, but search doesn't really work with how i've designed it. i'll have a look though
<Noskcaj> It's just gtkbuttons so far, designed in glade because i'm a crap coder
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> i haven't looke at the code yet tbh
<ochosi> g'day flocculant 
<flocculant> morning ochosi :)
<ochosi> Noskcaj: another easy fix is closing the launcher with either ctrl+w, ctrl+q or Esc
<Unit193> As-is it doesn't handle close well, right.
<ochosi> Noskcaj: still, as bluesabre said, it's a good start considering you haven't coded too much yet. so just keep on poking!
<knome> ochosi, pong
<ochosi> hey
<knome> oh bah, krytarik's not here
<flocculant> afternoon 
<knome> hello flocculant 
<knome> ochosi, did you have something in mind?
<ochosi> knome: i've just been toying with a few more LO icons
<knome> aha
<ochosi> much of it is just resizing icons that i've already refreshed from 24 to 16px
<ochosi> so nothing spectacular there
<knome> right
<ochosi> maybe we could take another peek at the status page
<knome> sure
<knome> maybe you're right - maybe we need "tabs"
 * knome goes looking at that now
<ochosi> yeah, i mean we can keep the page as is
<ochosi> it's really a lot better than status.ubuntu.com already
<knome> good
<ochosi> but i think it can still be improved (like everything, always)
<knome> yes too
<ochosi> for instance, i was wondering whether LP provides the data for the burndown graphic
<ochosi> not that we as a team *really* need it, but it'd be a nice starting image/graphic for the developer area
<ochosi> showing that there's stuff going on in a timeline sort of view
<knome> it doesn't
<ochosi> right, so status.ubuntu was collecting/calculating that on its own then, i presume
<knome> there is no history for LP, you got to gather the data yourself
<knome> yse
<knome> *yes
<ochosi> humm
<ochosi> let's put that to the end of the todo-list then :)
<ochosi> let's start with the lower-hanging fruit
<ochosi> to the worst we can always show progressbars instead
<knome> aren't we doing that already?
<ochosi> no, i was still thinking of the entry page for the developer area
<knome> rrright
<ochosi> i know that needs some IS interaction, so it might take time to land, but we could still plan for it
<knome> that sounds like a $lot more work
<ochosi> well for one we could make the "tracker" link in the developer area point to your page
<ochosi> cause status.ubuntu is dead
<ochosi> so it's not really useful
<knome> because even if i can feed the data easily out from the tracker, there needs to be something that outputs it on the website
<knome> well that's the other question - can we have a space where it is under the IS control in xubuntu.org?
<knome> sure, then all code needs to go through IS, but meh
<ochosi> i thought of just rendering it to an image when there's an update
<knome> the status bars?
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> right...
<ochosi> we can also add an iframe ;)
<knome> huho
<knome> i kind of understand your point, but otoh, don't
<knome> people can just go to the tracker to see the status
<knome> the progress bars are useless as is on the developer area
<knome> you need to follow-up on the details anyway
<knome> knowing we're "23% towards 15.10" doesn't tell a lot
<ochosi> yeah, it's just a visual gimmick there, i know that
<ochosi> but a meaningful image makes ppl click links
 * knome shrugs
<ochosi> anyway, let's focus on the status page itself instead
<knome> ;)
<ochosi> so what was your thought re:tabs again?
<knome> i'm working on it
<ochosi> oh ok
<ochosi> i'll just give you some time for that then and get some other stuff done meanwhile
<knome> mhm
<ochosi> also, just a small thought: maybe we could also put the "total progress" as the first item in the list
<ochosi> i know it's the sum, so that makes sense at the end
 * knome shrugs
<knome> :P
<ochosi> still, it also makes sense as the first item
<knome> if you want to do it like that, then i need to change the code
<knome> the total isn't saved anywhere
<knome> (maybe it should..)
<ochosi> do it like what?
<ochosi> ah
<ochosi> you mean put the total first
<knome> yes
<ochosi> right, then keep it where it is
<knome> see the status now
<knome> has tabs
<ochosi> nice
<ochosi> what about color-coding the inprogress/todo/done in the expanded overview?
<ochosi> (just the status column on the right)
<ochosi> or the whole line with a very pale version of the main status color
<ochosi> flocculant: wanna start setting up your LP account?
<ochosi> (just added you to x-qa)
<knome> ochosi, i thought about that, but i'm not really sure
<knome> at least the whole row would be obtrusive
<ochosi> mhm, maybe
<ochosi> then maybe just try to add a bg color for the status column
<ochosi> (maybe even that is too obtrusive, but it'd be nice to know/see)
<ochosi> for the details page it'd definitely help
<knome> another thought is to append something to the item row
<ochosi> yeah, could work just as well
<knome> there you go
<knome> i don't know if that's useful
<knome> i was actually thinking that it might be more useful to color the status text
<ochosi> right, that could work too
<ochosi> question is whether the text "inprogress" etc is still needed then
<ochosi> if things are color-coded anywa
<ochosi> y
<knome> looky now
<ochosi> definitely better!
<flocculant> ochosi: you found it then ;)
<ochosi> and appending might still be worth a try
<knome> though now it's a bit too colorful on the details page
<knome> or at least it doesn't help me much...
<ochosi> flocculant: sure ;) just wanted to wait until we were both around
<flocculant> :)
<ochosi> knome: yeah, on the overview it's good, details not that much
<knome> actually, it's more or less useless on overview ;)
<knome> the column is too far away
<ochosi> knome: yeah, that's what i mean with "appending"
<knome> look now
<knome> would something like that work?
<knome> i mean, just color todo/blocked
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> maybe a bit less colorful red
<ochosi> it's a bit funny though that done is grey-strikethrough ;)
<ochosi> but yeah, maybe better than making it green tbh
<knome> not at all..
<knome> "don't worry about this"
<ochosi> :)
<ochosi> yeah
<ochosi> no actually i think this works wel
<ochosi> l
<knome> ok, done with the color tweaking now
<knome> another idea...
<knome> prepend "TODO: " to the todo items
<knome> like this
<knome> then the color might not be needed (for the whole row)
<knome> like this
<ochosi> hm, dunno, the "TODO" is a bit of a duplication there and the color is not as easy to see as before
<ochosi> because it's just four letters instead of (usually) more
<flocculant> then would it not be better to remove the status column and add the status to all the work items
<ochosi> yeah, sort of
<knome> ochosi, refresh
<knome> flocculant, that might be an option
<ochosi> heh, flashier color :)
<knome> though i don't think we need a status for every row
<knome> i think it's useful enough
<knome> and not too obtrusive
<ochosi> the colors do it well enough for my taste
<knome> could also b smaller font
<ochosi> i wouldn't need the status column at all as it is now
<ochosi> it's pretty clear what is done and what's not
<knome> yes
<knome> lookie now
<knome> or refresh
<knome> that might be my favorite
<knome> can also prepend blocked items with "BLOCKED"
<ochosi> mhm, nice
<ochosi> makes it look more like a tag or label
<ochosi> gotta step out for 10mins or so
<ochosi> brb
<knome> ok, enough of this hacking now
<flocculant> looks better like that imo
<ochosi> knome: well done
<ochosi> also, is there a style for "postponed" yet?
<knome> nope
<ochosi> (could be like "done" but with "Postponed:" prepended)
 * knome shrugs
<knome> i'll look at that the next time
<ochosi> sure
<bluesabre> it's looking really good
<knome> i just modified the tabs so that you can actually link to either tab and get that tab opened on load
<knome> (also note that the tabs remember the "state", eg. you can go to details and then come back to "overview" and it keeps stuff you had expanded, expanded)
<knome> ochosi, there you have it, postponed style
<knome> (lookie under web)
<ochosi> hey bluesabre 
<bluesabre> hey ochosi
<ochosi> knome: yeah, looks nice!
<ochosi> bluesabre: still on holidays? :)
<bluesabre> ochosi: pretty much, just checking in here for a few minutes this morning
<bluesabre> gotta bake a blackberry cobbler this morning as promised ;)
<ochosi> heh, lovely
<ochosi> btw, i marked my artwork items done, since they're all just pending in terms of getting uploaded
<bluesabre> sounds good to me
<bluesabre> maybe we'll see that new ubiquity this week
<ochosi> that'd be good too
<ochosi> oh, and a xfpanel-switch release ;)
<bluesabre> yup
<bluesabre> that'll be here probably monday
<bluesabre> gotta review the build system to make sure its up to snuff for release
<knome> ochosi, also now you can see that POSTPONED items aren't counted towards the progress
<knome> in good or bad
<knome> which is, IMO, the only right way
<bluesabre> knome: that sounds good to me
<ochosi> knome: indeed, that sounds right
<knome> status.u.c didn't do that
<knome> ochosi, what do you think of the following idea:
<knome> mark blocked items with the BLOCKED tag
<knome> remove the tag from TODO
<knome> add the tag to INPROGRESS
<ochosi> guess i'd have to see
<knome> ok, just a moment, it's a trivialish css operation now
<knome> refresh
<knome> i think it makes more sense logically
<knome> because obviously, all items here are "TODO"
<knome> just with different statuses
<knome> this way the blocked items also get more weight and prominence in the list
<ochosi> yeah, puts the (visual) stress on WIP instead of TODO
<ochosi> mhm
<knome> which is desirable
<knome> or at least is from my POV
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> this way it's very easy to see what needs unblocking
<ochosi> woops, gotta run
<knome> hha
<ochosi> be back in 30mins
<knome> have fun :)
<knome> ok
<ochosi> u2!
<knome> will do
<knome> also thanks for reminding me music exists :P
<knome> bluesabre, http://xstatus.knome.fi/#tab-details/bluesabre
<knome> bluesabre, http://xstatus.knome.fi/#tab-details/ochosi
<knome> eh,
<knome> ochosi, http://xstatus.knome.fi/#tab-details/ochosi
<ochosi> knome: nice, almost done :)
<ochosi> that's a really useful view
<knome> yes
<ochosi> would be nice to integrate that back into LP somehow
<knome> also, http://xstatus.knome.fi/#tab-overview/expand
<ochosi> into the personal page overview
<ochosi> nice, much cleaner
<knome> (no, see the url without /expand)
<ochosi> into this page, i meant: https://launchpad.net/~ochosi
<knome> it would be a resource hog, they'd likely need to create db views for all people and look through all specifications
<ochosi> mhm, nice
<knome> there's no way to know which specs you are involved with until you check all the specs
<ochosi> yeah, i guess
<knome> or check all specs where you/any of the teams you're a member of is in some of the fields
<ochosi> but since it seemed like we're building our own frontend to (parts of) LP almost...
<knome> so yeah, it's not sustainable by all means
<knome> sure
<knome> we are
<knome> good lord they have an API for that
<ochosi> :)
<knome> added a dropdown
<knome> so you can now pick a nick from the UI
<knome> do whatever you wish with it :P
<ochosi> nice
<ochosi> that's pretty cool too
<ochosi> knome: you could (if you wanted to) style that combobox too to fit in with the rest of the page though ;)
<knome> naah
<sorinello> very nice link: http://xstatus.knome.fi/#tab-overview/expand didn't know about it
<ochosi> jjfrv8: ok, in the file-manager-window page i'd add the right-click menu (to show / hide sidepane items)
<Unit193> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-xfce-devel/2015-July/020878.html - https://bugzilla.xfce.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12012
<ubottu> bugzilla.xfce.org bug 12012 in General "xfce4-session configured with --disable-legacy-sm breaks qt4 integration" [Normal,New]
<ochosi> jjfrv8: other than that, that page looks great!
<ochosi> jjfrv8: the working with files and folders isn't finished, but what's there looks good! lemme know when that's done and i can review the rest of it
<jcjordyn120> hello what's up
<knome> hello
<Unit193> Howdy.
<knome> jcjordyn120, are you looking for something or somebody?
<jcjordyn120> no knome
<knome> jcjordyn120, what brings you here then? :)
<jcjordyn120> just seeing what up with the xubuntu development. knome
<knome> ok; it varies how quiet/loud it is here, but feel free to ask or comment if there's anything
<jcjordyn120> okay knome
<knome> krytarik, hello!
<krytarik> knome: Howdy.
<astraljava> o/
<knome> krytarik, avoiding translating twice was the (other) thing i thought about - great to have that sorted
<knome> krytarik, what's VPATH?
<knome> krytarik, and what's translate: | get-translations ?
<krytarik> hahaha
<knome> and for the pdf linking, i'd rather use something else than sed
<knome> practically something that would just be hidden from the PDF
<knome> but would be part of the documentation
<knome> that would also allow a (better) description (that can be trasnslated)
<knome> and while <ul> kind of is most semantic, i'd likely just drop it all inside a <p>
<knome> (avoid most of the CSS and all)
<krytarik> knome: http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/make.html#Directory-Search - and - http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/make.html#Prerequisite-Types
<knome> right
<jcjordyn120> whats up with that QA position
<Unit193> jcjordyn120: What do you mean "what's with it"?  f<tab> has it.
<knome> jcjordyn120, a person by the nick "flocculant" is being appointed as the QA lead if there is no objections
<knome> jcjordyn120, the QA lead coordinates the testing and quality assurance related tasks for xubuntu
<jcjordyn120> oh ok
<jcjordyn120> why is abiword and gnumeric included with xubuntu instead of libreoffice suite
<Unit193> I'm not going to remember that nick very well, sigh.
<Unit193> jcjordyn120: It isn't, in Wily.
<jcjordyn120> oh i was talking about vivid
<Unit193> vivid is done with, wily is the target.
<jcjordyn120> oh ok, so what is included with wily
<Unit193> Libreoffice.
<jcjordyn120> okay
<knome> Unit193, basically, you just xsltproc to a .fo file, then use fop to make a PDF out of that
<knome> Unit193, in our case, using the PDF customization layer
<knome> Unit193, done.
<Unit193> (Thinking about adding it to my daily build script.)
<knome> sure
<jcjordyn120> hello can you here me, my internet went out
<knome> jcjordyn120, yes, we can read you.
<jcjordyn120> oh thanks, i by mistake flipped my wifi switch off
<knome> UTC'ized the tracker
<ochosi> evening all
<ochosi> knome: looking forward to the date switch and the status tracker burndown's second line ;)
<knome> hey ochosi 
<knome> ochosi, it already happened when the tracker thought it was supposed to follow UTC+3 time
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> crap, i missed it
<knome> but i of course fixed it and removed the other line ;)
<ochosi> :)
<knome> yeah, i don't intend to keep it this way
<ochosi> hm, planning to rotate those progressbars by 90Â°?
<knome> the problem is that i don't really want to create a SVG
<ochosi> yeah
<knome> and i don't know how i could draw the burndown line
<ochosi> hmm, css maybe?
<ochosi> or js
<ochosi> (i know php could draw it)
<knome> hah
<knome> with html5 canvas, maybe
<knome> i should know what the area for the burndown chart was then
<knome> the other option is some hacking with css rotation
<ochosi> yeah that sounds about ok
<knome> "about ok"
<ochosi> :)
<knome> that sounds like headache
<ochosi> well, it could be a lot of work
<ochosi> is what i mean
<ochosi> but the result would likely work
<knome> though it might be less than canvas
<knome> meh
<knome> the problem is
<knome> i should figure out the printing of the vertical lines next
<knome> eg. store start/end days somewhere
<ochosi> indeed, that's likely more important than the burndown line
<knome> the burndown line is actually quite trivial after that, i just figured
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> hmm, have you ever exported to xpm from inkscape?
<knome> no
 * knome gets some puke to his mouth from the thought alone
<ochosi> yeah, it's quite terrible, i know
<ochosi> i was considering to port parts of greybird's wm theme to svg
<ochosi> but then there seems to be little benefit because of the xpm-iness
<knome> heh
<knome> what was the 15.04 release day
<knome> and what is the scheduled 15.10 release day
<knome> ochosi, SAMBA!
<knome> ochosi, or in other words, look at the burndown page
<ochosi> :D
<knome> ochosi, well, there you have it
<knome> ;)
<knome> now for the burndown line
<ochosi> nice that didn't take that long :)
<knome> now for the burndown line
<ochosi> (still waiting for that date-change)
<knome> 2 more hours
<knome> though i could add some fake informÃ¡cion
<knome> actually, first
<knome> some other stuff
<knome> you'll see soon
 * knome sighs in advance
 * ochosi waits patiently
<knome> ochosi, refresh
<knome> 10% line
<ochosi> i see a line
<knome> yes
<knome> it's at 10%
<ochosi> k
<knome> now for the rest
 * knome hacks the css linear-gradient background
<knome> 10 + 20
<knome> well, at least should be
<knome> that doesn't look unifrom
<knome> *form
<knome> maybe my eyes just fail me
<knome> let's see 30
<knome> that looks better
<knome> haha
<knome> ok
<knome> there's something fishy with the bar
<knome> *there* we go
<ochosi> yup
<ochosi> that looks good
<knome> let me try something completely different
<knome> that
<knome> could be subtler
<knome> but believe me or not, that's half easier than the previous one
<knome> there
<knome> could be even more subtler
<knome> now?
<knome> huh what
<ochosi> quite fat lines, but the gradient is nice
<knome> ok
<knome> it's a visual thing
<knome> there aren't lines
<knome> there are just 10 gradients
<ochosi> oh
<ochosi> right
<ochosi> maybe subtler?
<knome> haha, it's already 2.5% black
<knome> but ok
<knome> now?
<knome> still?
<ochosi> still looks like 2px lines, but my eyes might be tired
<knome> well, yeah
<knome> there seems to be some glitch
<knome> it's %'s anyway
<ochosi> and i guess the effect is stronger with the low brightness i'm using atm
<knome> now the gradients is barely visible
<knome> *are
<knome> but the lines are definitely still "fat"
<ochosi> when i pump it up, the gradients fade out a bit
 * knome returns to the lines
<knome> for now, at least
<knome> ok, the burndown line now
 * knome sighs
<knome> i think i need js there
 * knome sighs again
<ochosi> whoops, where did the burndown tab go?
<ochosi> oh, it's at the bottom
<knome> what?
<knome> ok, something failed
<knome> only my js.
<knome> my bad!
<knome> think i'll figure this out with greasemonkey
#xubuntu-devel 2015-07-26
<jjfrv8> ochosi, thanks for the review. I'll let you know when ready for the next one.
<ochosi> jjfrv8: perfect! thanks for the great work!
<knome> morning
<astraljava> g'morning
<knome> hello astraljava 
<astraljava> Herro
<knome> wb flocculant 
<flocculant> ty
<knome> i guess neither of you saw the new burndown chart at the tracker
<knome> go see it
<flocculant> saw it earlier :)
<knome> all of it?
<knome> :)
<knome> with milestones and stuff
<flocculant> yep :D
<knome> ok ok, good
<knome> like it?
<flocculant> but you weren't about for me to say it looks good ... 
<knome> :D
<flocculant> knome: the tracker looks good :D
<knome> good
<flocculant> working through the qa stuff later today 
<knome> nice
<flocculant> in the meantime bbl
<knome> hf
<flocculant> Unit193: is this workitem still happening? "xubuntu-core: Start hosting on cdimage and mirrors"
<flocculant> or indeed anyone who can answer :)
<knome> ok, now there's at least *some* sanity for non-js users
<knome> will hacky-hack some kind of support for the burndown line too later
<knome> flocculant, how do you want yourself attributed on the tracker?
<knome> "flocculant" vs. "Flocculant" ?
<flocculant> whichever is simplest
<knome> k
<knome> and non-js burndown lines done
<knome> bbl
<Unit193> Hasn't yet, there's a few things to patch..
<flocculant> but still in plan ?
<jcjordyn120> i am back
<Unit193> Just not done yet.
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-25
<pleia2> http://news.softpedia.com/news/xubuntu-16-04-1-lts-released-upgrade-path-from-xubuntu-14-04-lts-now-open-506582.shtml
<pleia2> I should do some scouring of the internets to update http://xubuntu.org/press/ since I know there are a few more around
<knome> yes
<Unit193> Maybe drc will stop by and help you. >_>
<knome> Unit193, on a funny mood? (:
<Unit193> knome: He's linked quite a few in the past, actually.
<knome> i know
<Unit193> He spots a lot more than I do.
<knome> maybe you aren't just trying
<pleia2> hah
<knome> >__<
<pleia2> knome: gonna do another round of #LoveXubuntu posts, care to do twitter?
<knome> sure
<knome> done
<pleia2> same
<knome> good good
<Unit193> Well that's certainly not as nice as upstart user sessions..
<flocculant> I'd wonder wth - but I guess I just read it too :p
<Unit193> -Exec=startxfce4
<Unit193> +Exec=/usr/share/xfce4/scripts/run-systemd-session xubuntu-session.target
<ochosi> you read what where?
<ochosi> and evening everyone
<knome> hello ochosi 
<ochosi> are systemd user sessions already working in yakkety?
<Unit193> ochosi: Email, pitti made commits to x-d-s.
<ochosi> where what who?
<ochosi> i mean which ml?
<knome> who said mailing list?
<knome> put your act together simon
<Unit193> s/put/get/
<knome> shot put.
<ochosi> yeah, it's just... hard.
<knome> it is?
<knome> TMI.
<Unit193> I really have been wanting to correct the 'XFCE' spelling though. >_>
<ochosi> well to some extent i'm happy he is proactive about these unavoidable changes
<knome> yeah
<ochosi> on the other hand dropping us a line in advance would have been super-cool
<ochosi> but well, can't have everything i guess
<Unit193> zequence: Hey, I recommend looking at the last two commits in https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/xubuntu-default-settings/trunk
<ochosi> Unit193: any thoughts on when to have the next team meeting?
<Unit193> ochosi: 1. When we have agenda items (which now we do have one.)  2. When I can make it, so "evening" UTC.
<ochosi> maybe the agenda items will magically add themselves as soon as there is a day/time :)
<ochosi> btw, i still can't edit that stupid page so it's hard to add agenda items for me
<ochosi> when will this finally be productive? http://wiki.xubuntu.org/meetings/start
 * knome hides
<ochosi> lazy website team! :D
<knome> maybe the new council-to-be can take care of that
<Unit193> ochosi: FWIW, as said in -ot I've been waiting for something so it's not me trying to pull a 3 minute meeting. :P
<knome> and also as i said there, i think regular meetings are a good thing even when there isn't anything specific on the agenda
<ochosi> Unit193: sure understandable. although if we don't have regular meetings anymore at all the things also don't come up anymore
<ochosi> darn, knome typed it a little faster...
<knome> always
<Unit193> Sooo, in 6 min?  :---D
<knome> wfm.
<ochosi> sure, why not :>
<knome> if flocculant isn't around it's kind of moot though
<Unit193> And "dishonest" to everyone else.  I think this week would be good.
<ochosi> sure
<ochosi> well, it also somehow depends on when the next meeting would be scheduled though
<Unit193> I suppose tomorrow would be too quick though.
<knome> another point is that if the meetings are regular, then it doesn't matter that much if one of them is scheduled quickly
<ochosi> you expect ppl to prepare or reserve the slot in their calendar?
<knome> maybe some weirdos like pleia2 
<ochosi> crazy!
<ochosi> wow, worst burndown ever http://dev.xubuntu.org/#tab-burndown
<knome> :]
<knome> summer
<knome> LTS+1
<knome> that happens
<ochosi> yeah yeah, i know ;)
<knome> and babies
<ochosi> i think 14.10 was also a bit like that
<knome> :d
<ochosi> hah
<ochosi> true as well
<pleia2> I have a thing at 1900 tomorrow, but otherwise ok ;)
<knome> and maybe the others are practicing having them
<knome> :X
<Unit193> I was going to say 4PM tomorrow.
<knome> pleia2, great timing, especially with "a thing"! :P
 * pleia2 is very precise
<knome> indeed
<Unit193> 20:00 was my idea. :P
<ochosi> darn it, why didn't they name it "12.04 precise pleia" anyway?? i mean wtf is a pangolin!!
 * knome picks "trusty" then
<knome> ochosi has to be the xenial one then
<ochosi> oneiric ochosi
<knome> one-eyed ochosi 
<ochosi> karmic knome
<knome> feisty flocculant 
<ochosi> utopic Unit193 (that one oddly fits nicely)
<ochosi> breezy bluesabre 
 * ochosi wonders why nobody thought of this game sooner - then again, no games with names..
<knome> heh
<knome> this game is played quickly
<Unit193> The naaaaame game.
<ochosi> poor akxwi
<Unit193> Awkward akxwi
<ochosi> :D
<Unit193> So then, Tue Jul 26 20:00:00 UTC 2016
<knome> anonymous akxwi
<Unit193> 'Unknown Unit193' might fit better. :P
<ochosi> hehe
<ochosi> one day we will reveal your secret identity!
<ochosi> the world will tremble
<Unit193> ...At how boring it is. :P
<Unit193> ochosi: There.
<knome> Unit193, added to calendar.
<Unit193> Great.  I was somehow magically logged into the wiki, so got it.
<Unit193> dkessel, flocculant, astraljava1, slickymaster: Meeting tomorrow.
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-26
<bluesabre> evening all
<Unit193> bluesabre!
<bluesabre> Unit193: I'm on vacation this week, so I might actually make it to your meeting tomorrow!
<Unit193> Oh heh, ok.  I guess that's one way to use vacation. :P
<bluesabre> been trying to avoid everything
<bluesabre> been nice so far
<Unit193> :D
<Unit193> bluesabre: I presume you read about x-d-s?
<bluesabre> Unit193: as in, the latest commits, or?
<Unit193> bluesabre: Yeah, switching which user sessions we use.
<flocculant> !team | you have - assuming LP has a sensible address - a mail regarding topic in meeting today
<ubottu> you have - assuming LP has a sensible address - a mail regarding topic in meeting today: akxwi-dave, bluesabre, dkessel, flocculant, jjfrv8, knome, krytarik, micahg, Noskcaj, ochosi, pleia2, slickymaster and Unit193
<pleia2> a recent mail?
<flocculant> I know for sure bluesabre's other address is better - I also I know I lost it :p
<flocculant> pleia2: about 2 minutes ago - and your's went to @ubuntu.com
<pleia2> ok
 * pleia2 awaits delivery
 * flocculant apologise for losing people's mail addresses ...
<flocculant> he would apologises but there were already enough s's in the sentence
<flocculant> krytarik won't get it, failed message
 * krytarik sad face
<Unit193> I saw that one.
<flocculant> krytarik: sort out LP or @ubuntu then
<flocculant> Unit193: good - you'll really need it :D
<Unit193> He's not a member.
<flocculant> oh well that'll be why then
<Unit193> Want me to just forward it?
<flocculant> yea that's fine
<flocculant> I'm sure if I dug I'd find everyone's address
<flocculant> it wasn't till I saw the wall of text which would end up here an hour ago I thought about it 
<bluesabre> hey everyone
<flocculant> Unit193: on the other hand if krytarik was that concerned he's pm me :p
<akxwi-dave> hey bluesabre 
<flocculant> bluesabre: lost your smd address - you has @ubuntu mail
<bluesabre> flocculant: I got it
<flocculant> k
<bluesabre> blues@u.c is a-ok
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> krytarik@u.c isn't :(
<flocculant> he should go for it imho :D
<bluesabre> yes
<bluesabre> krytarik: you got this
<pleia2> slow email is slow
<pleia2> didn't seem to go to spam either
<flocculant> pleia2: pm you're other one and I'll send it you
<flocculant> or here 
<pleia2> lyz@princessleia.com
<pleia2> but lyz@ubuntu.com should work o_o
 * pleia2 shrugs
<flocculant> pleia2: race on then :p
<flocculant> I know dkessel, slickymaster, bluesabre's work 
<pleia2> flocculant: ty
<flocculant> pleia2: I did know the leia one of course - but forgot momentarily :)
<flocculant> no idea how ... 
<Unit193> flocculant: If he should, ochosi certainly should...
<flocculant> Unit193: should what?
<flocculant> know?
<bluesabre> and hey akxwi-dave (didn't mean to pass over your hello)
<Unit193> Go for Ubuntu memberships.
<akxwi-dave> lol
<flocculant> Unit193: oh yea for sure 
<bluesabre> yeah ochosi :D
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: it's what happens when you are QA :'( 
<flocculant> lol
<akxwi-dave> cheers.. :-)
<krytarik> #startmeeting Xubuntu community meeting
<krytarik> Howdy and welcome to the Xubuntu community meeting.  Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jul 26 20:00:01 2016 UTC.  The chair is krytarik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<krytarik> So anyone here?
<Unit193> o/
<bluesabre> o/
<akxwi-dave> o7
<krytarik> #topic Open action items
<knome> o/
<krytarik> I just see items from knome and ochosi here.
<knome> that's all done
<flocculant> wut
<knome> except the jenkins stuff from ochosi
<flocculant> why's krytarik running the meeting lol
<bluesabre> krytarik is Unit193 currently, maybe
<pleia2> ohi
<krytarik> knome: 'initialize voting on the council proposal on devel ML (week from now)' too?
<knome> yes, the council proposal...
<knome> not the council
<knome> note that the last meeting was in may
<krytarik> Okay, we can carry on unless you'd like to #done something.
<flocculant> I think we are surely now in a place to move on?
<knome> let's move on..
<flocculant> eg my last mail on that
<bluesabre> let me know what I can do to move that forward
<flocculant> no no knome 
<knome> wut? :)
<bluesabre> if anything
<flocculant> not move on - but move on on the council thing :)
<flocculant> we have their approval
<knome> yes, move on the council, and move on on the meeting too
<krytarik> #topic Updates and Announcements
<flocculant> og good lord
<krytarik> Next one I see is in Aug, FF so nothing soon.
<bluesabre> ochosi is wrapping up the gtk 3.20 Greybird port
<knome> bluesabre, #info?
<bluesabre> #info ochosi is wrapping up the gtk 3.20 Greybird port
<krytarik> Oh, and Debian picked up the Shimmer themes, splitting them out into separate packages.
<bluesabre> #info GTK 3.20 will be included in yakkety probably sometime next week
<bluesabre> aiui
<krytarik> #topic Discussion items
<krytarik> #subtopic Xubuntu QA (flocculant)
<flocculant> so what's happening about the council thing then? 
<knome> flocculant, the list of tasks you posted on the mailing list
<krytarik> flocculant: That can be the next topic, if knome has something.
<flocculant> knome: ok
<flocculant> krytarik: ok
<knome> flocculant, i mean, i thought we had set the plans up already, we even have a blueprint :)
<flocculant> yea right ... blueprints .... 
<flocculant> ok 
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> so QA thing is pretty simple - I assume people present have read the mail?
<krytarik> Yes.
<bluesabre> yes
<flocculant> for the records in irc
<flocculant> I need a break. 
<flocculant> Team have been sent a private mail atm detailing that.
<flocculant> I've not completely gone - in fact I will be here as much as I am now.
 * pleia2 hugs flocculant 
<knome> ack
<pleia2> breaks are good
<knome> flocculant, thanks for *everything* you have done so far
<pleia2> indeed!
<flocculant> but I'll not be mving things in the zeppedy zaphod zycle
<bluesabre> +10000
<knome> (and sorry for being too ignorant at times - probably more often than not)
<akxwi-dave> sorry hexchat had crashed
<knome> akxwi-dave, no problem... you just dodged a lot of things being auto-assigned to you :P
<flocculant> I'm happy to come back - but the remaining members of team need to decide that with akxwi-dave 
<knome> (just kidding)
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<pleia2> wb akxwi-dave 
<akxwi-dave> ok seems missed a bit
<flocculant> it *is* a poisoned-chalice
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: not really
<knome> so to have some kind of plan
<knome> we're participating in beta2, right?
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: you have the irc pm and mail I assume
<flocculant> knome: I'll be here till the end of YY
<flocculant> that's why I am doing this now :)
<bluesabre> knome: yes for B2
<flocculant> so we can plan ;)
<akxwi-dave> hey if I can survive 25 years of marriage ... :-)
<knome> flocculant, sure :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: much appreciated
<akxwi-dave> yes got  the email anmd your pm this dinner
<flocculant> 2 seconds here
<bluesabre> 1
<bluesabre> 2
<bluesabre> :D
<flocculant> just want people to understand that I am still here - and depending on what we do for the next cycle - I'll be about as needed
<knome> mhm
<bluesabre> sounds reasonable to me
<knome> indeed
<flocculant> I don't care what we do - either muddle along for a cycle, let Dave run it, don't
 * bluesabre gears up for unending development next cycle
<flocculant> I'm cool with it all
<knome> re: plan, if there's anybody that is interested in running qa stuff with flocculant this cycle, and potentially leading next cycle, now's a good time to talk :)
<knome> *cough* akxwi-dave *cough*
<knome> ;P
<flocculant> I'll be about for the next cycle still unless it all looks better - at which point there's no point in going backwARDS
<flocculant> oops
<akxwi-dave> ohhhh ok as long as you get me that kfc
<flocculant> heh
<krytarik> Doesn't QA currently contain flocculant, akxwi-dave, and slickymaster?
<knome> i'm on the team as well... granted, not very active
<bluesabre> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-qa/+members#active
<knome> though i try to see my position to be an enabler... eg. making sure QA can have stuff they want on the status tracker
<knome> (where possible and realistic)
 * knome saves his bottom ^
<akxwi-dave> good getout
 * bluesabre claps
<flocculant> just for the record
<flocculant> QA as active is akxwi-dave and me
<knome> yeah, slickymaster has been away from all stuff lately, even docs
<flocculant> but akxwi-dave has been rather trained in the last few months :P
<flocculant> he would certainly get a vote from me as a team member
<knome> i'd agree with that
<bluesabre> same here
<flocculant> and he would certainly get all the help he needed from me 
<akxwi-dave> Well, from me, I would be willing to stand in for a cycle, until flocculant come to his senses and comes back
<flocculant> but
<pleia2> akxwi-dave: \o/
<knome> indeed, huzzah for akxwi-dave 
<bluesabre> and flocculant!
<knome> yes
<flocculant> if after doing it for a cycle - and deciding he wanted to carry on - I would not ever be in for any sort of fight
<knome> hahah :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: he's obviusly already got my vote ;)
<flocculant> I'd then leave team of course
<krytarik> I'm pretty sure he has everyone's vote.  I thought he was in team.
 * bluesabre looks to train flocculant for dev next cycle
<knome> krytarik, that's because he is.
<knome> ;)
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<krytarik> Oh good, so my memory is only half failing.
 * krytarik hides.
<flocculant> krytarik: he is in team - that was the WHOLE point of -qa
<knome> bluesabre, not the right time to say this, but i wrote my first (working) python script today...
<flocculant> krytarik: now I'm really not sure which you are lol
<bluesabre> knome: congrats!
<knome> \o/
<akxwi-dave> grats as well
<krytarik> So looks like nothing more on this topic.
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: you need to sort out irc constant to deal with the non-yorkshire people :p
<flocculant> krytarik: one more thing
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<akxwi-dave> starts to look for his rasp-pi
<flocculant> can people please give akxwi-dave more real support than I have had when it really matters, I cannot say this enough nor loud enough - but if QA asks people to test something and people from Xubuntu Team don't bother - why the hell should they? It REALLY is not rocket science.
<flocculant> krytarik: and now you can move on ;)
<pleia2> I'll continue to do my best
<knome> same here - and i think that's the most one can promise...
<flocculant> pleia2 and everyone else: everyone does - but it is usually about 5% - you can test an iso in a vm
<krytarik> And of course, try to remember to report when you do.
<flocculant> or it is pointless
<knome> i always report when my test is appropriate for testing
<krytarik> No other topics?  If not, announcements.
<flocculant> did we briefly brush over not getting anywhere with council ?
<knome> what we should try to do is getting random "testers" do valid tests and report them instead of telling us "it works" on the mailing list or social media
<knome> (but it's easier said than done)
<pleia2> or "it doesn't work but I don't want to submit a bug report" on list :\
<pleia2> not sure what to do with that
<knome> flocculant, i'd still say the roadmap for that is in our knowledge, and now we just need to do things as we got the ACK from CC
<knome> flocculant, i've been AFK and busy so haven't been able to work on it after the ack, but i'll be on it as soon as i have time
<pleia2> thanks knome 
<flocculant> knome: yea ok but
<knome> for the record:
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2016-July/011231.html
<knome> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xubuntu-y-council
<flocculant> afaik we need to do the things I said then - shouldn't be hard
<knome> flocculant, nope
<flocculant> and I think we need to action them
<flocculant> and
<flocculant> pointless action anyone but knome for item 1 or it will just be interminable discussion and mails till it does
<flocculant> so 
<flocculant> action knome point 1
<flocculant> I am happy to argue once we have draft :p
<bluesabre> :)
<flocculant> possibly worded that harshly
<flocculant> not what I meant at all lol
<knome> np
<bluesabre> I think it's understood
<bluesabre> progress is +1
<knome> yep
<flocculant> well it is - just didn't meant it to sound harsh - the sentiment is right :)
<flocculant> if Xubuntu hasn't sorted this thing out soon, then I will nominate and then not be able to vote ;)
<flocculant> and it should be easy 
<flocculant> really easy
<knome> i think we all agree on the general direction, and just need the more literal version for the strategy document
<flocculant> I did similar with the forum and that had 200k currents
<knome> once somebody (who can be me or somebody else) has the time to write that down, i think it's another easy vote
<flocculant> knome: yea - it's about bullet points from the mail I am sure
<knome> yep
<flocculant> in order
<flocculant> so 'power of statement' dilutes
<flocculant> the power should always lay in the hands of 'team'
<flocculant> they 'give' council power and should be able to wrest it away in times of duress
<flocculant> everything else should be 'tasks'
<flocculant> does that make sense to people?
<flocculant> cos - all quiet .... 
<akxwi-dave>  sorry taking a long drink of IPA
<knome> i'm having problems focusing because $other_things
<akxwi-dave> and yes.. 
<knome> (which is why a long pause in replying too)
<pleia2> I admit, I wasn't really prepared for this topic
<bluesabre> sounds reasonable
<pleia2> so I'll reread things to catch up, but it's hard for me to speak to anything right now
<flocculant> pleia2: it's been bubbling around for ages
<pleia2> flocculant: yes, I know, which is why I don't know what the state is
<knome> the state was "waiting on CC's ACK" for a long time, like a few weeks
<flocculant> pleia2: though it's not stated specifically
<knome> and as everybody agreed with the general direction, i don't know why they wouldn't agree with the final literal form
<flocculant> pleia2: recenttish was ack
<knome> i mean, i don't intend to add or remove any subject matter to/from it
<flocculant> but then there has been no response from anyone at all for 4 days
<flocculant> at all
<flocculant> hard to know if that's a 
<knome> if somebody thinks something should be done, then they should have raised up concerns earlier, or do it now
<flocculant> carry on
<flocculant> sto]
<flocculant> stop
<flocculant> pleia2: and I don't mean that I expect immediate responses either
<pleia2> oh, I assumed we were just moving forward, my slience was assent
<flocculant> but neither have we had any 'wth is going on' responses
<pleia2> we have a blueprint for this, it's moving in the correct direction
<flocculant> pleia2: I played that game with the FC :p
<flocculant> hence the portion you liked ;)
<akxwi-dave> same here I assumed we were waiting for the time to nominate announcement
<flocculant> knome: then I will take that as a +1 to doing strat doc changes
<flocculant> can we has vote here please 
<flocculant> I'd like to know how long we should wait for a null to taken as a positive for any changes
<knome> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2016-May/011194.html
<flocculant> knome: so how long sensibly to get an agreed change between us for SD? 2 weeks? 
<pleia2> I guess I'm just used to blueprint items moving along without revoting
<pleia2> I thought it was implied that we move along to the strategy document updates, again, I thought it was pretty much finaized
<knome> nobody replied to that, so i take the team is OK with somebody doing the writing part
<pleia2> knome: nods
<flocculant> pleia2: except we've not really used them for cycle(s)
<knome> and now that CC ack'd our draft, there's no blocked in doing that
<pleia2> flocculant: I still use them :\
<knome> now we only need somebody to have time to write it
<flocculant> knome: do you think we can do our bit by eow?
<knome> we did use blueprints heavily last cycle; this cycle has been very slow generally, and not much has happened, which is why blueprints haven't got too much love either
<knome> i can't promise anything either way
<flocculant> ok
<knome> but it's possible, given that things don't go too much south
<pleia2> thanks for trying, knome 
<knome> i should be "back at the office" next week, so at latest then i'll have time to work on that too
<flocculant> so we'll just have another meeting then
<flocculant> knome: ack - not pressuring you here - just you know :)
<knome> again it's just a task of making a bullet point list literal
<knome> no worries
<knome> if somebody else feels like doing it, go for it
<flocculant> knome: if you want me to take ti with someone else?
<flocculant> I've got time 
<knome> (we'll likely end up doing one or two wording changes anyway, so no need to feel like to have to be perfect the first time)
<flocculant> yea yea
<knome> sure, it's up for "anybody" to pick up (assigned to -team)
<flocculant> has to be someone fairly active
<flocculant> e.g. people talking :p
<knome> well anyway,
<akxwi-dave> speak to me in morning on irc and ill see if i can jumo in and help with it
<flocculant> bluesabre: do you have time? 
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: okey doke
<knome> let's not stretch the meeting... we can figure out schedules with people after it :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: yup
<bluesabre> I'm on vacation this week, but generally available at most times or can make myself available
<knome> yeah, i'm technically on paternity leave this week as well (if my application is approved)
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: not dissing you, thanks for the offer, if I take this with bluesabre - it'll not be QA orientated :p
<akxwi-dave> flocculant, no probs mate just wanted to help out if no one else available
<flocculant> howabout if we action bluesabre flocculant : reword SD for Council
<akxwi-dave> +1  from me..
<krytarik> #action bluesabre and flocculant to reword the SD to formalize the council.
<meetingology> ACTION: bluesabre and flocculant to reword the SD to formalize the council.
<flocculant> then move next meeting from slickymaster to either me or bluesabre and we can report it
<bluesabre> alrighty
<flocculant> s/it/in
<flocculant> does that make sense? 
<flocculant> I just want this to be sorted out asawc
<flocculant> \o/
<krytarik> Not sure if it matters who is running, but flocculant you're before bluesabre.
<knome> flocculant, just put it in a pad, and point me to it when you work on it and i might pokey poke it.
<flocculant> yea I read :)
<flocculant> yup
<knome> (if you want extra set of eyes)
<flocculant> bluesabre: as you are now 'Day' could you start in a pad? 
<flocculant> if -team fiddle can they at least let us know how did stuff~? 
<krytarik> flocculant: Details after the meeting?
<flocculant> krytarik: ack
<krytarik> #topic Announcements
<krytarik> flocculant to schedule next meeting
<krytarik> Anything else?
<bluesabre> #info upcoming date, Feature Freeze August 18th
<bluesabre> nothing more from me
<akxwi-dave> or me
<krytarik> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jul 26 21:03:03 2016 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/xubuntu-devel/2016/xubuntu-devel.2016-07-26-20.00.moin.txt
<bluesabre> flocculant: we can work from http://pad.ubuntu.com/xubuntu-council-sd
<flocculant> bluesabre: yup
<flocculant> lost all those etherpoad urls I had too :(
<akxwi-dave> well have a good evening all...  the wifes giving me bad looks .. better get the wine for her...
<flocculant> night akxwi-dave 
<flocculant> bluesabre: if you let me loose now for 30 minutes I can sort draft, then can look in the morning for your changes
<bluesabre> flocculant: go for it, I'll use this time to see if my wife wants to go out or something :)
<Unit193> flocculant: So installs vs running dev.  You end up basically just testing ubiquity, which is shared with all the flavors whereas if you run dev, you're messing around with it more and thus are more likly to break something.  Right?
<flocculant> bluesabre: ok - done the basic stuff now - I'll look tomorrow, just make sure your colour is no green or I'll be back in the 11 cycle :p
<flocculant> I did add to the beginning ;)
<ochosi> hey folks
<ochosi> sorry i couldn't make the meeting
<flocculant> hi ochosi 
<flocculant> s'ok
<ochosi> had a terrible thunderstorm here and water came in from the roof :'(
<flocculant> I took the mail I sent you originally an run with it a bit :)
<flocculant> ochosi: that's wet :( 
<ochosi> yeah, i expected that, i would've preferred to be around
<flocculant> kid dry I assume 
<ochosi> and sorry i didn't really respond to it, thought we would talk at the meeting
<ochosi> yeah, kid almost slept through it, although it was a fairly impressive thunderstorm
<ochosi> even volume-wise
<flocculant> ochosi: yea yea I know - on the + side I'm not ditching, just chilling for a bit and seeing what happens 
<ochosi> sure
<flocculant> bluesabre: I'm happy with that - rip it on up now :)
<ochosi> anyway, gotta do some more cleaning up
<flocculant> then I'll rip your rips to rips - and we'll get a change
<ochosi> i'll read the backlog tomorrow and play catch up
<flocculant> ochosi: well good luck my friend - done that job ... as long as you are all warm and smiling tomorrow pm all is well :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: concept being the awkward one there 
<Unit193> ochosi: HI.
<flocculant> Unit193: so are you Unit193 or kryten now? 
<ochosi> flocculant: yup ,thanks!
<ochosi> and sry again, have a good one!
<flocculant> always
<flocculant> bluesabre: I've saved a copy of that pad, you can fiddle about - then mp it to the contributor bits of docs and we can go from there I guess
<Unit193> flocculant: I might be the vague one.
<flocculant> bluesabre: we could try and get a meeting time to suit us both, if it's a Friday I can stay awake ish
<flocculant> Unit193: really? 
<flocculant> :p
<flocculant> bluesabre: better for you to assume I'm ~5 hours ahead 
 * bluesabre assumes GMT +/-5 for flocculant
<Unit193> flocculant: Unit193. :P
<flocculant> bluesabre: plus - wouldn't -5 from you be somewhere the other side of Hawaii  ... 
<flocculant> oh
<flocculant> missed the gmt :)
<flocculant> I'm currently gmt +1 
<bluesabre> gotcha
<bluesabre> nap time, bbl
<flocculant> nap time?
<flocculant> bed time ;)
<flocculant> ochosi Unit193 bluesabre: I'm happy to point this user to the right place, but is it a knowbn bug, too tired to look atm
<flocculant> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2016-July/016779.html
<flocculant> and if there is a known issue I'm happy to point them to where they need to look and how etc from qa pov
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-27
<bluesabre> flocculant: not a lot of changes needed... in fact, I cannot find changes to the actual text. Added/removed spaces, added reference links, and "later: XPL" is not needed in this version since its never referred to again (assuming it is appropriately dropped from the remainder of the SD)
<Unit193> I thought it interesting 'users' was used in it once, but never again.  Seems...Interesting.
<bluesabre> Unit193: feel free to make changes if you think it helps :)
<Unit193> You see what I saw though, no?
 * bluesabre reviews again
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> yeah, hm
<bluesabre> should ~xubuntu-users be more or less empowered here, can they only signal -team to vote or is it reasonable that they can reach out to the CC to stop/advance changes
<bluesabre> to the extent that users can act is not entirely clear with this document
<bluesabre> Unit193: is that how you see it as well?
<Unit193> Users should certinly poke contributors, yes.  Why they would go directly to the CC is byond me, because if you have to remove the whole team, well, then you have no more people to work on Xubuntu and a successful coup.
<bluesabre> indeed
<flocculant> Unit193: did you change it then? 
<Unit193> Didn't want to in case it was intentional, figured it was so didn't want to go changing it on you.
<flocculant> I'd rather you changed things there than we have to start with loads of fiddling of mp :)
<flocculant> it's not *my* sd - it's everyones 
<Unit193> Sure, I just like discussing things rather than randomly change something on someone.  Might be a good reason.  Also words are hard.
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> well that's a new one on me ... can't upgrade xubuntu-default-settings as it has an unresolvable dependency
<flocculant> needed dist-upgrade for some reason
<Unit193> You're using the daily PPA then.  It pulled in dbus-user-session.
<flocculant> aah right
<flocculant> didn't think about that - x-d-s not upgrading threw me completely :)
<bluesabre> morning all
<akxwi-dave> morning
<flocculant> morning bluesabre 
<flocculant> still not sure what you and Unit193 want to change, because no-one did :p
<knome> flocculant, i just kind of finished making the council pad more literal
<knome> flocculant, re: the team having the ultimate say, i think i've written that in a less harsh way now
<flocculant> ack
<knome> i agree that three people - whether they were the ones in the council or not - should be allowed to change the direction of the project if all others disagree
<knome> otoh, the council *needs* to have some "power", like the XPL, to be able to steer the ship to where they want to
<flocculant> of course 
<knome> ultimately, the council is elected from people "inside", so i don't think we will end up in situations where people bloodly disagree - after all, the community picked the council members themself
<knome> but please do look at the pad (as i'm sure you're doing) and comment
<flocculant> I did :)
<flocculant> how does council oversee community? 
<knome> that needs rewriting, but what i mean with that is that the council should take care of business related to managing the community
<knome> in a good way, not telling people what to do
<knome> but enabling the community to do what they do the best
<flocculant> so enabling tools so community can be a community? 
<knome> yeah
<knome> i just changed the paragraph
<flocculant> work with sounds better to me
<knome> sure
<knome> why doesn't that make any sense?
<knome> do you mean it's repetition for no sake?
<flocculant> no - I mean it doesn't make sense to me :)
<knome> right
<knome> basically it means that the council technically manages the xubuntu teams on launchpad
<flocculant> hang on - I think I know what you mean - must be word(s) missing
<knome> that's just a very very technical comment on how the LP bureucracy works
<knome> it doesn't really need the last addition
<knome> (so removed that for now)
<knome> AND
<knome> s/for/form/
<flocculant> aah yea - makes sense now :)
<knome> time for more coffee
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> I'm happy with that pad, bluesabre ?
<flocculant> knome: will launchpad be as easy as changing xpl to read something else do you know?
<knome> yes, team names can be changed on the fly
<flocculant> that's the first good thing I've heard about lp for a while :p
<knome> (as long as you don't have active PPA's, but ~xpl doesn't)
<knome> (so same as with usernames)
<flocculant> right
<flocculant> just thought I would ask :)
<knome> sure
<flocculant> Unit193: seems that x-d-s depends on systemd (>= 231-1~) 
<bluesabre> knome, flocculant: fixed a minor thing, otherwise looks good to me
<flocculant> bluesabre: cheers - that'll do then 
<flocculant> https://code.launchpad.net/~flocculant/xubuntu-docs/xpl/+merge/301287
<ochosi> evening all
<ochosi> caught up on teh meeting notes from last night finally
<ochosi> flocculant: while it's good you're not going anywhere, it seems like an appropriate time to thank you for your hard work! i know QA often isn't headline material, but it's so important and much appreciated
<ochosi> and welcome akxwi-dave (when he's back)
<flocculant> ochosi: thanks :)
<Unit193> flocculant: Actually yes I changed it right after talking to you.  Yep, that's the other dep change, though generally systemd was pulled in before while dbus-user-session wasn't.
<flocculant> Unit193: seems that systemd 231 is still in -proposed
<flocculant> and it all changed later - did mp for the change a while back
<Unit193> Yep, noticed.
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-28
<akxwi-dave> ochosi, Cheers.. 
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-29
<bluesabre> evening all
<knome> hello sean
<bluesabre> heya pasi
<knome> what's up?
<knome> playing pokemon?
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> wife has my phone currently
<knome> huh, she playing?
<bluesabre> I think she's evolving pidgeys like crazy to level me up
<knome> :D
<Unit193> bluesabre: Did I need to keep appfinder.png?
<flocculant> knome: assuming mp for council is as expected, best to get team to vote in a mail thread or comment on mp?
<flexiondotorg> bluesabre, I hear GTK 3.20 is landing in 16.10 proposed soon.
<flexiondotorg> Just a heads up since themes will need a significant rework.
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: afaik they've been working on themes
<flexiondotorg> Cool :-)
<flocculant> bluesabre: anything happened with the intel/lock thing lately?
<ochosi> flexiondotorg: just fyi, our theme already has gtk3.20 support
<flexiondotorg> ochosi, Thanks.
<flexiondotorg> Upstream MATE themes are sorted.
<flexiondotorg> The Ubuntu MATE themes are nearly done.
<flocculant> ochosi: I did think so, but wasn't completely sure :)
<ochosi> good to hear flocculant 
<ochosi> err flexiondotorg 
<ochosi> gah, you guys should really sort out your nicknames!
 * flexiondotorg looks sheepish
 * flocculant looks sheepdogish
<flocculant> flexiondotorg: don't let ochosi talk to infinity about nicks :p
<ochosi> :)
<flexiondotorg> I have actually been thinking about changing my IRC nick.
<flocculant> good for you - just ftr I'm not doing that ever again :p
<Wimpress> It is me, flexiondotorg
<Wimpress> A grouped nic.
<Wimpress> ochosi, Happy now! Look what you made me do ;-)
<ochosi> haha
<flocculant> Wimpress: 2 burgers and a large fries please :p
 * Wimpress face palms
<ochosi> Wimpress: i'll keep my huge impact on you in mind and speak more carefully next time ;)
<flocculant> not seen a Wimpy for years :)
<Wimpress> flocculant, I have. And my RL nickname is Wimpy.
<flocculant> ochosi: goven that akxwi-dave is going to take over for at least 6 months - can you add him to -release team, so I can spend some time with him on the trackers with real permissions there
<flocculant> Wimpress: :D not seen one locally for years - I thought that was long gone
<flocculant> well that was a few minutes of my life I'll not get back ... 
<Wimpress> flocculant, One in my home town - http://www.localdatasearch.com/basingstoke/town_centre/fast_food_takeaway/wimpy-12459914
<flocculant> oh my - you in basingstoke? 
<flocculant> 60 minutes up the m3 from me :)
<ochosi> flocculant: yeah makes sense, will do that now
<Wimpress> flocculant, Well, not in Basingstoke. But it is the closest town.
<ochosi> flocculant: ok, done
<flocculant> ochosi: thanks :)
<flocculant> Wimpress: soton is closest to me
<Wimpress> flocculant, So did you ever used to go to HantsLUG?
<flocculant> nope - no transport
<flocculant> did think about it a few times
<Wimpress> OK. They used to be in soton. But that was years back.
<flocculant> Wimpress: on another note (ignore the language) you ever seen Turn off secure boot checkbox in installer? https://ibin.co/2pjePvirQnae.jpg
<flocculant> yea - soton uni iirc
<bluesabre> flocculant: it is said "no news is good news", I'll go with that
<bluesabre> >.>
<flocculant> \o/
<flocculant> will it be out next week then :p
<flocculant> heh
<bluesabre> hah
<bluesabre> no, probably not
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: I assume you saw mp for contr-docs for council 
<bluesabre> flocculant: haven't looked, been on vacation this week
<bluesabre> getting ready to resume being a contributing member to society
<bluesabre> cleaned my desk today :D
<flocculant> lol
<ochosi> bluesabre: the dead poets society..?
<bluesabre> ochosi: if dead poets contribute to xfce/xubuntu, yes
<ochosi> also, does that mean i'm looking at an exo and xfce4-settings release this week? :D
<bluesabre> ochosi: at least exo in the next few days
<bluesabre> -settings, soonish (many more bugs to sort out)
<ochosi> btw, released a new notifyd
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: at some point - logout of 'tracker(s)' then log back in, enable 'release team' when you do
<flocculant> have a look around - and we'll talk at some point about what you'll be able to do
<akxwi-dave> cheers will do
<bluesabre> ochosi: awesome
<flocculant> bluesabre: not at all sure what went on here - but I appeared to lose desktop - had x-defualt-settings wanting upgrading and needing systemd from -proposed
<flocculant> I got it sorted in the end after ending up with a default xfce desktop 
<flocculant> was too much before the second cup of tea :|
<bluesabre> flocculant: xenial+ppa or yakkety?
<flocculant> yak ppa's 
<bluesabre> hm
<bluesabre> Unit193 might have a better idea of that
<flocculant> always going to be dev here - even next cycle lol 
<flocculant> he did say something - but that was the other day - and I couldn't even get to irc logs - nothing worked
<flocculant> and of course I'd not sorted out the vanilla xenial yet ... 
<flocculant> just thought I'd let you know for Justin's Case
<bluesabre> you're probably just yakketing incorrectly
<bluesabre> :P
<flocculant> \o/
<akxwi-dave> he didn't really say that did he..  ;-)
<flocculant> I'd be sad if I was doing it properly 
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: see what you're going to have to get used to :p
<akxwi-dave> stocking up on the Jameson's
<bluesabre> akxwi-dave: I say things sometimes that make no sense to myself :D
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<flocculant> bluesabre: you could be Unit193 
<flocculant> oh nvm
<flocculant> you said myself instead of everyone else :D
<flocculant> Wimpress: lol :)
<Unit193> flocculant: Yeah, I figured you were using the daily builds of x-d-s and thusly you tried to switch to systemd user units.
<flocculant> guess so - I know the systemd upgrade installed some dbus thing
<flocculant> dbus-user-session
<Unit193> Technically that was the x-d-s upgrade, and as I said, dbus-user-session. :/
<flocculant> yup
<Unit193> Not thrilled with it all either. :/
<flocculant> Unit193: what confused me is that I was sure it wasn't yesterday we *spoke*, was sure I'd rebooted with the un-upgraded and broken x-d-s
<bluesabre> Unit193: any benefit from it?
<flocculant> bluesabre: not for me - I lost hair 
<Unit193> bluesabre: upstart user â systemd user.
<bluesabre> Unit193: gotcha
<bluesabre> flocculant: they have remedies for that
<Unit193> bluesabre: Sooo, "Everything is better!" also we'll have to look into xfce4-indicator-plugin again.
<flocculant> bluesabre: single bladed razor
 * bluesabre was going to suggest debian oldstable
<flocculant> Unit193: so that'd be why the dropbox thing I had to have broke? 
<Unit193> Dropbox thing?
<bluesabre> Unit193: Everything is better/nothing is changed/its just an init system/everything is terrible (all at once)
 * flocculant has dropbox till he gets wedding pic - had the ind for it working - then it broke, had to remove the ind plugin, stop start dropbox and then put ind-plugin back on pane;
<Unit193> flocculant: Ah, so just the typical missing icon.  You can either edit ~/.dropbox-dist/dropboxd and add unset DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS right before the exec, or fix it somehow else.
<flocculant> I did somehow else iirc
<Unit193> https://mail.xfce.org/pipermail/xfce/2016-July/035114.html so just a couple changes then.
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+3.0/3.20.6-1ubuntu1 fun times.
<bluesabre> Unit193: yes, seems like just a few... dozen
<Unit193> flexiondotorg: You need more SASL. :P
<Unit193> bluesabre: Something is bound to be broken, but what? :D  Anyway, did you ever look at xfce4-settings packaging, for gtk3?
<Unit193> xfce4-session*
<bluesabre> Unit193: not yet, but hopefully soon (probably mess with it tonight/this weekend)
<bluesabre> heading out now, bbl
<Unit193> Ok, what I had was in /source/, not sure the state of it.  Have fun.
<flocculant> ochosi: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk2-engines-murrine/+bug/1598316/comments/7 can that be right if version of desktop is same as we released with?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1598316 in shimmer-themes (Ubuntu) "gtk2-engines-murrine desktop text shadow problem" [High,Triaged]
<flocculant> and what I don't understand is how that update got through and screwed things up in the first place?
<flocculant> Unit193: ^^
<flocculant> pleia2: not sure who to say to - but we should lose 15.10 from http://docs.xubuntu.org/ EOL now
<Unit193> Hi.
<flocculant> getting there
<Unit193> Will you stab me if I give an idea? :3
<flocculant> only etherstabbing
<flocculant> so pretty painless :)
<Unit193> Oh cool.  So if he thinks it is xfdesktop, what happens if someone replaces that with pcmanfm?  (It's what handles the desktop in LXDE.)
<flocculant> so I'm right?
<flocculant> seems pretty much slam dunk to me - if we were good and something else updates and we're broken - not us broke it 
<flocculant> *shrug*
<Unit193> flocculant: Not tried it yet, but yeah an update to that engine broke things.  Technically, it's likely seen that it was broken before, but this just shows it.  I don't know.
<flocculant> well I guess reverting to old engine should fix it 
<flocculant> I could upgrade and see
<flocculant> but on saturday :)
<ochosi> Unit193, flocculant: not an issue with xfdesktop for sure. it's murrine. period.
<knome> flocculant, i'm no pleia2, but done.
<Unit193> ochosi: I have a fixed Numix already, thanks! ;)
<flocculant> knome: indeed and thanks :)
<knome> np
<knome> re: xsd stuff, yes, we should probably just dump that on the mailing list (and CC the CC just in case)
<flocculant> ochosi: thanks to you too - just wanted to ask someone who'd have more clue than me :)
<flocculant> knome: ack - I''ll do that shortly then
<knome> i'd personally post the new section as-is on the mail (instead of a diff - and no worries if links disappear) for better legibility.
<knome> since we aren't really *changing* anything, that should be the best way to go
<knome> but of course link to the merge proposal too if somebody wants to double-check the diff.
<flocculant> ok - I'll do both for archive sake
<knome> yup
<flocculant> ochosi knome and anyone else awake
<flocculant> how long 1 week? 2? 
<flocculant> really anoyyingly 10 days? 
<flocculant> ofc I'll spell it properly on a mail :p
<knome> IMO a week is long enough time for anybody active to reply/vote
<flocculant> well I'd say the same - but it needs to be a majority and it is the summer
<knome> well, the history here is that the team has generally accepted this direction, and this is very much in the exact same spirit
<knome> so, *shrug*
<knome> i'd still say most of the active people are around within any 7 days
<knome> if we don't have the majority after 7 days, then extend
<flocculant> ok 
<knome> like if you count how many of the team have been active today alone
<knome> that's already a lot
<knome> and that's just IRC
<Unit193> Well, IRC is more popular among Xubuntu folk. >_>
<knome> sure.
<knome> but then again, we can just point people on IRC who didn't read the ML stuff to do that.
<knome> this would be a totally different beast if the team was 100 people and of half of them we only ever heard via email and/or commit messages
<knome> (that would be scary btw)
<flocculant> ochosi: I must say that I like the 'boom' in that response :D
<flocculant> ok - so that's away now
<ochosi> heh
<ochosi> yeah, couldn't help it ;)
<flocculant> and voted
<flocculant> ochosi: :)
<flocculant> should have snipped ... 
<knome> voted as well
<knome> snipping is for ...snippers?
<flocculant> waiting for responses to me without snipping 
<flocculant> ha ha 
<ochosi> what about all those missing spaces..? :)
<ochosi> "withXubuntu"
<ochosi> "enablingthe"
<flocculant> they're full of snips ochosi 
 * ochosi wonders whether he shall really approve that...
<Unit193> "Ending on" == "Ending after"?
<flocculant> ochosi: I think that's copying from a pad
<flocculant> oh boo
<flocculant> I didn't put a finish date on it :p
<knome> flocculant, gives us more freedom :P
<knome> again, i'm sure most of us will reply in a timely manner
<flocculant> me added that to end on 6th August
<knome> errmm.
<knome> note to self: if you want to use an SSH key, please copy it on the system you are sitting at
<flocculant> ochosi: I don't see missing spaces
<flocculant> perhaps it's your client :p
<knome> maybe
<flocculant> I had more trouble with nested sections ...
<flocculant> till I realised you just nest them ... 
<knome> :P
<knome> i can confirm i see the non-space issue when i turn on "plain text only" mode on tb.
<knome> so it's totally do with the pad, it's always messing up the spaces with some html elements like that.
<knome> so it seems like i'll boot my desktop machine one more time today...
<flocculant> I did just drag and drop from pad
<ochosi> this is my client: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2016-July/011238.html
<knome> ochosi, no, the mailing list moderators didn't order anything from you..
<flocculant> I can confirm knome confirming that too 
<knome> anyway
<knome> who cares?
<flocculant> ochosi: check out the mp instead then :D
<knome> the correct stuff is available on the repository diff
<flocculant> *I* was going to get silly and ask team to +1 as a comment on the mp :)
<flocculant> as that's what we're really doing 
<knome> that's what we should have done...
<knome> add everybody individually as a reviever
<knome> reviewer too
<knome> Unit193, would you fancy voting on the ML now so we can see if mail reaches simon now?
<flocculant> knome: I did think about it both seriously and half-seriously
<flocculant> then it was just loads of work - so I went to work
<knome> lol
<flocculant> I also thought that if anyone really wanted it that way then I could delete my branch and let them do it :p
<knome> ochosi, got the mail now?
<knome> hah
<ochosi> knome: nope
<knome> hmm.
<flocculant> bluesabre: next meeting I will set for 12th August - what time you want - assuming post 18:00 UTCV
<flocculant> we should have a vote by then 
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-30
<quantibiliy> anyone work with QT creator?
<quantibiliy> :/
<quantibiliy> btw the new installment of ubuntu 16.04 has dual screen start up issues
<quantibiliy> i thought developers stay up late?
<quantibiliy> where is everyone?
<quantibiliy> hmph
<akxwi-dave> flocculant: just doing an install of todays iso, remember the other day when I linked a couple of screen shots where you couldn't see any radio buttons or text field on the install screens for users.. well they are not showing on real hardware either..
<flocculant> mmm
<akxwi-dave> oh and hello by the way.. :-)
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: I'll grab ours and the ubuntu one too and have a look here then
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: just for the sake of repetition - are you starting install from live desktop or where?
<akxwi-dave> flocculant: from the install option at first boot
<akxwi-dave> not the live desktop one.
<flocculant> not from the try/install dialogue? 
<akxwi-dave> yep  the install from there
<flocculant> ok 
<flocculant> just double checked on qemu or whatever - still ok there - sorting a stick to test on hardware
<akxwi-dave> when i swapped to vmware yesterday they were missing as on vbox, so assumed it was due to vbox/vmware probs..  hence the hardware test today
<flocculant> yup - booting to live now - biab
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: ok - just doing same with ubuntu iso - but pretty sure I know what's up 
<flocculant> I suspect that it's to do with gtk3.20 being half way 
<flocculant> I didn't get as far as anything but seeing that frame was missing from buttons on the try/install options
<akxwi-dave> thought it may be something like that, after what you said yesterday
<flocculant> not really sure what's been gtk320'd yet
<flocculant> but regardless of that - this would be something we can 'phew that's an sep then' on :)
<akxwi-dave> :-)
<akxwi-dave> well gotta go ..off out for tea.. cya later
<flocculant> cya :)
<flocculant> not sure this would a sep ... 
<flocculant> bluesabre: might be worth waiting till next week and re-checking but, currently our installer appears not to have frames (or whatever you want to call them) around ubiquity options including the try/install dialogue - ubuntu appears to be unaffected 
<flocculant> ochosi: ^^
<bluesabre> flocculant: might be that we need to go ahead and upload our gtk 3.20 theme update
<flocculant> I'm assuming this to be some gtk3.20 thing 
<bluesabre> ochosi: ^^
<flocculant> bluesabre: just redoing a proper usb test with our's - I'll have a look on the desktop before installing 
<bluesabre> flocculant: alrighty
<flocculant> shouldn't be too long
<flocculant> but I assume if 'that's' looking wrong then apps might too
<bluesabre> indeed
<bluesabre> catfish/menulibre would probably make gtk 3.20 bugs very noticeable
<flocculant> yep - that's where I was going to look :)
<flocculant> rebooting now
<tracker4> bluesabre: http://i.imgur.com/I4CKW2a.png 
<flocculant> that tracker irc window is useful :p
<flocculant> thanks knome 
<flocculant> guess there's not much point in a report for it 
<flocculant> usb's are great 4 minutes to reboot into live, open apps, screenshot and reboot back to here \o/
<knome> hah, np
<flocculant> bluesabre: and this is on current install (with our dev ppa's) http://i.imgur.com/hi610t5.png
<bluesabre> flocculant: I like the way that looks, let's keep it
<flocculant> ha ha ha 
<bluesabre> (GTK 3.20 for sure)
<flocculant> yea - more I looked the more I believed that was the issue
<flocculant> bluesabre: akwxi mentioned it last week - I just assumed some vbox thing again 
<flocculant> bbl 
<ochosi> flocculant, bluesabre: yes, we likely just need the greybird update
<flocculant> ochosi: okey doke - let me know when it has and I or akxwi will make sure all's fine
<flocculant> ochosi: that said - I use the ppa stuff(s) so the last screenshot is whatever is there rather than what the iso would have
<flocculant> not sure what's going on there with missing word
#xubuntu-devel 2016-07-31
<ochosi> bluesabre, Unit193: do you have any overview on whether jbicha is now packaging greybird for ubuntu - or just debian? just wondering because it'd be good to land the gtk3.20 branch in ubuntu sometime soonish (i can also merge to master do a release ofc)
<bluesabre> ochosi: we'll probably sync it from debian once its ready, but if you want to merge it to master/do a release/etc we can drop it into xubuntu
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-24
<ninetls> Unit193: that's strange, I tried to use xdt-autogen against tarball but don't see any errors
<ninetls> Unit193: try autoreconf --install
<Unit193> ninetls: I forgot about the xdt-autogen part. :D
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/extras/+packages but it's there (no autoreconf this time, not actually needed..)
<ninetls> Unit193: using autoreconf agains xfce packages is a bad idea
<ninetls> it uses XDT macroses
<ninetls> so scripts should always be generated via xdt-autogen instead of autoreconf
<Unit193> Well you just have to do it properly, not like an idiot....
<Unit193> override_dh_autoreconf: NOCONFIGURE=1 dh_autoreconf xdt-autogen
<Unit193> I was just an idiot instead.
<ninetls> Unit193: can you build it for 16.04? :D
<ninetls> it will work
<ninetls> but I don't know how ppa work so I don't sure
<Unit193> Sure it'll work, but I'm kind of phasing 16.04 out.  However, if you want it, sure thing.
<ninetls> I wanted to show it my friend
<Unit193> Will be there in a minute.
<ninetls> Unit193: I see. thanks
<Unit193> Nothing else I can do for ye?
<ninetls> no, thanks
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-artwork:: [greybird] r524 Explicitly set background color in stack (Fixes #194)... (by Simon SteinbeiÃ)
 * Unit193 just noticed something!
<Unit193> bluesabre: Did you move?  +0400 :P
<bluesabre> Unit193: woops! :D
<bluesabre> I copy pasted and cheated the package a lot
<bluesabre> Missed that details :D
<Unit193> I know,I could tell. :D
<bluesabre> ;')
<Unit193> ...Now just to get it in.
<Unit193> 0_o
<Unit193> `dcmd`
<Unit193> bluesabre: https://sigma.unit193.net/source/xfdashboard_0.7.3-0ppa1_i386.build that's a lot of symbol changes and drops...
<Unit193> Pushed to https://loki.unit193.net/cgit/users/unit193/xfdashboard.git/ in a slightly modified layout.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfconf 4.13.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfconf-4-13-3-released-tp49578.html (by Ali Abdallah-4)
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-25
<bluesabre> Unit193: yes, that does look like a lot of changes :\
<Unit193> Additions are fine, but that removes/renames a lot...
<Unit193> Also I screwed up injecting into svn. :3
<Unit193> Oh!  xfconf pushed to extras to fix things, cc flocculant.
<bluesabre> nice :D
<bluesabre> I should probably do some updates and reboot
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: exo 0.11.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-exo-0-11-5-released-tp49585.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<Unit193> We don't even have .4 yet. :3
<Unit193> ...We need to loosen up depends here, just trying to remove greybird ends up losing xubuntu-default-settings.
<flocculant> Unit193: ack
<Unit193> flocculant: What theme do you use?
<flocculant> Unit193: I don't muck about - just use greybird 
<Unit193> I thought you said gtk-theme-config worked?  Shouldn't work there.
<flocculant> I think I said it worked for me ... 
<Unit193> And it shouldn't with Greybird.
<flocculant> *shrug*
<flocculant> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/07/08/%23xubuntu-devel.html
<Unit193> Ah, panel == gtk2.
<flocculant> Unit193: panel is 4.13.0git-1ca5c78b
<Unit193> ...OK,confused now.
<Unit193> I'm not even going to pretend to know GTK.
<flocculant> panel's not been updated at all for ages 
<flocculant> I'll rebuild it later if I remember
<flocculant> more when I remember how to build it so it uses external plugins :p
<flocculant> well would but stupid garcon issues and some mismatch with available versions
<flocculant> libgarcon-1-0-dev : Depends: libgarcon-1-0 (= 0.4.0-2) but 0.6.1-0ppa1+gtk3~17.10 is to be installed
<Unit193> Likely related to Debian #868626.
<ubottu> Debian bug 868626 in libgarcon-1-0-dev "libgarcon-1-0-dev is not installable" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/868626
<flocculant> aah yes - I do remember you linking that the other day
<Unit193> bluesabre: Didja fix xfdashy? :D
<bluesabre> Unit193: haven't fixed a thing :D
<Unit193> :D
 * Unit193 knew it.
<bluesabre> Need an opinion... do we keep the Ubuntu font and logo for the super key, or switch to Noto and use â (or some other character), https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-mate-settings/+bug/1703116
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1703116 in xubuntu-default-settings (Ubuntu) "Include Onboard overrides" [Medium,New]
<flocculant> I have no opinion on that 
<Unit193> I was leaving that to you.
<krytarik> lol
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> thanks guys ;)
<bluesabre> ochosi, knome: somewhat artworky anyways, thoughts on above?
<Unit193> "Nah, we don't need any overrides" better?
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> Before and after https://i.imgur.com/7eK2gXm.png
<Unit193> Yep, going with "Do we really need an override?" :D
<bluesabre> Oh, that's not without the overrides
<bluesabre> thats Ubuntu > Noto Sans
<Unit193> Ah, wondered if it inherited something for the Ubuntu logo.
<bluesabre> Waiting for my vm to finally let go of the dpkg lock so I can install dconf-editor
<Unit193> apt-get download dconf-editor && sudo dpkg -x dconf-editor.deb /  :---D
<Unit193> (Don't do that.)
<bluesabre> Does update-manager automatically install security updates?
<bluesabre> oh
<bluesabre> dconf-editor lets you erase keys
<bluesabre> which breaks apps that depend on them
<bluesabre> very nice
<bluesabre> yay!
<bluesabre> Unit193: no overrrides, https://i.imgur.com/VtAabXb.png
<bluesabre> and that's unpinned, floating, etc
<Unit193> Hah, OK.
<Unit193> You win.
<bluesabre> :D
<bluesabre> That's a pretty awful default for any app :|
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xubuntu-default-settings:: [trunk] r635 Include Onboard overrides (LP: #1703116) (by Sean Davis)
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-26
<Unit193> ..."This release is the second release candidate for the 0.12.x stable"  then why does it say .5?
<knome> bluesabre, lgtm
<bluesabre> Unit193: because .0, .1, .2, .3 were not and I think the .99 rc versions are dumb
<Unit193> Mhm, sure thing.  Also go back to bed, it's only 5:30!
<bluesabre> :D
<Unit193> What's up for this morning?
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-27
<Unit193> I realized earlier that I uploaded xfconf to the wrong PPA. ;/
<bluesabre> morning all
<flocculant> akxwi-dave: you still seeing the parole clears global history? I can't locally 
<Unit193> bluesabre: Time to get statusnotifier in the archives?
<Unit193> I suppose I shouldn't keep quiet on https://ftp-master.debian.org/new/xfce4-eyes-plugin_4.5.0-1.html just because I was involved...
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-28
<flocculant> slickyma1ter: anything being done to slideshow this cycle - other than s/17.04/17.10 ?
<flocculant> revamping for next lts perhaps?
<flocculant> bluesabre: quick question ... would not 'Clear History' imply 'Clear whatever random playlist' you've got kicking about?
<flocculant> I'd make the assume that any 'clar hist' in any app assumes I mean 'any' history at all
<flocculant> doesn't appaer to be quite right, but once more stuck in this 'no-one from Xubutu's team appears to actually test things apart from 2 people'
<flocculant> and then it all breaks on release
<flocculant> I'm really fed up with that :(
<flocculant> bluesabre: seriously we need to do somethign about hat
<flocculant> if Testing can't even get the maintainer to report - then we stand NO CHANCRE
<flocculant> sigh
<flocculant> SHANCE#
<flocculant> sigh
<flocculant> I don't care enough
<Unit193> I'm still running Artful and testing the new shiny things I'm pushing on others...
<Unit193> Only thing I have held right now is one panel plugin, the load one.
<flocculant> well
<flocculant> I do as I can 
<flocculant> but the notifier thing does nout
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-29
<Unit193> Wait, not working for you?  It should, I've got it on artful/amd64, artful/i386 and zesty/i386. :3
<bluesabre> Evening all
<bluesabre> Not sure what happened, flocculant let me know what I can do to help
<bluesabre> flocculant: it's all context sensitive, Parole's "Clear History" just clears it from the recent items, the playlist is session-based unless the setting is toggled to persist across sessions
<bluesabre> Unit193: making some good progress on the pa plugin currently, got some stuff that compiles, and a screenshot that I hope to achieve https://i.imgur.com/pCXUY9S.png
<flocculant> Unit193: who knows - the new one appears to do sod all
<flocculant> bluesabre: works here - in the real world - not sure what Dave is seeing tbh - just responding to cooment on tracker tab
<Unit193> bluesabre: Oooh, shiny!
<flocculant> Unit193: I like shiny 
<Unit193> flocculant: OK, is indicator-application installed and running?
<flocculant> covers up all the bad things :p
<flocculant> Unit193: not sure tbh - not convinced reboot happened
<flocculant> ii  xfce4-statusnotifier-plugin   0.1.0-0ppa1~17.10
<Unit193> OK, just make sure indicator-application isn't running, and that statusnotifier is added to the panel of course.
<flocculant> wolf      3979  3836  0 02:18 pts/1    00:00:00 grep --color=auto xfce4-statusnotifier-plugin
<flocculant> could be - not convinced about reboot
<flocculant> ^^
<Unit193> Nope, you'd grep for statusnotifier
<flocculant> wolf      3992  3836  0 02:20 pts/1    00:00:00 grep --color=auto *statusnotifier-plugin
<flocculant> brb
<Unit193> unit193    2434  0.0  0.7 580128 14896 ?        Sl   Jul24   0:21  \_ /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/xfce4/panel/wrapper-2.0 /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/xfce4/panel/plugins/libstatusnotifier.so 24 12582940 statusnotifier Status Notifier Plugin Provides a panel area for status notifier items (application indicators)
<Unit193> bluesabre: But seriously, that's pretty fantastic.  I don't suppose you've poked andrzejr?
<flocculant> webootid
<bluesabre> Unit193: I'll poke him once I have something functional
<flocculant> Unit193 bluesabre - tbh not really sure wht this plugin gives us, nor sure what difference to what we had
<ninetls> flocculant: hide "Application Indicator" from indicator-plugin, restart it (pkill panel-.*-indica), kill service (pkill indicator-applic), sn-plugin should work then
<flocculant> and to be completewly frank
<ninetls> bluesabre: nice!
<flocculant> I have no ide what idea ANY of the things I grab from ooa's give me any more
<flocculant> and I don't knwo if Dave is about
<bluesabre> a headache? :D
<flocculant> and I've got a whole shit load of stuff to do next year - none of which actually need a pc at all :p
<Unit193> flocculant: It being Xfce upstream is certainly a plus, it's actually maintained whereas -application will be less and less.  indicator-application covers a minimal portion of the 'indicator' spec whereas statusnotifier covers more, and better.  The indicators keep changing, it's been more and more of a pain to keep them working with xfce4-indicator-plugin, even now if they're terminated wrong, the 
<Unit193> icons will disappear with the applications still running..
<Unit193> ninetls: That about cover it?
<ninetls> Unit193: didn't understand!
<Unit193> Dowh. :(
<ninetls> > That about cover it?
<flocculant> yea icons disappeared - but given I wasn't actually expecting that - nor them randomly appearing it just felt like some of that
<ninetls> really don't know how to translate it correctly
<flocculant> xfec do shit and then eventually tell people and THEN it is normal
<Unit193> ninetls: "Did I cover the various ways the panel plugin statusnotifier is better, in Ubuntu, than using xfce4-indicator-plugin with indicator-application" :D
<ninetls> nice!
<ninetls> I understand this!
<ninetls> !!
<ninetls> yes
<Unit193> flocculant: As long as the plugin is loaded into the panel, ie you added it, then you should be set.
<Unit193> xfce4-panel --add statusnotifier
<ninetls> wow
<ninetls> panel can even this?
<ninetls> I didn't know about this command!
<Unit193> It'll ask you which panel if you have two, but yeah.
<Unit193> -a just brings up the dialog for selecting the plugin.
<bluesabre> a bit more progress, http://imgur.com/a/2yvOz :)
<bluesabre> night all
<flocculant> oooh
<flocculant> bluesabre: that soundy stuff - share it with me - I alsa for music for usb/dac 
<flocculant> so can test it outside pulse
<bluesabre> ah
<bluesabre> not sure pulseaudio-plugin works well with alsa, but maybe it does? :D
<flocculant> :D
<bluesabre> anywho, will notify folks when I have something functional
<flocculant> well atm it fails as well as the other plugin - eg does zilch :)
<flocculant> bluesabre: if you've got a goit one that sees medfia players - I will happily test that
<bluesabre> thoughts? http://imgur.com/a/CGbBu
<knome> about what exactly? :)
<bluesabre> working on adding sound-indicator powers to the pulseaudio-plugin
<knome> generally looks good to me
<bluesabre> the media players specifically :)
<knome> no complaints
<bluesabre> cool
<bluesabre> might have this working by the end of the weekend :)
<knome> :)
<knome> i wish i could say the same about my own project :P
<GridCube> looks good
<knome> at least i'm making some progress
<Unit193> Indicator seems to do song info and album art.
<knome> from my POV as somebody who doesn't use the indicator but listens to a lot of music with correct metadata, i'd say the album art would be just a waste of space and resources there. song information probably good to add if it isn't too hard
<knome> or add it later
<Unit193> I can live with that very easily, better to ask someone else (notice the wording), I think having mpris integration is nice, but wouldn't be a showstopper for me personally.
<bluesabre> Unit193: yeah, just doing a minimal support version initially
<bluesabre> Though, the most value is just being able to pause or switch tracks easily
<Unit193> Can't do anything with pianobar. :(
<bluesabre> Add mpris to pianobar :D
<Unit193> https://github.com/PromyLOPh/pianobar/issues/567
<akxwi-dave> flocculant: I'm back of holiday now
#xubuntu-devel 2017-07-30
<bluesabre> the hardest part is done, can actually work with multiple active players and updates on changes :D http://imgur.com/a/guwXE
<bluesabre> still some just gotta plug in the buttons and widget events now
<bluesabre> wow, I'm terrible at backspacing :D
<ochosi> bluesabre: oh wow, that looks awesome!
<Unit193> Except he keeps linking to the album and I get lost. :(
<ochosi> bluesabre: if you need testing or whatever input lemme know
<ochosi> bluesabre: merging the "mute" menuitems into the audio-icon on the left could be nice (as we did for the pulseaudio plugin)
<ochosi> but anyhow, i'm excited to test (and to create a repo for it on git.xfce)
<bluesabre> :)
<Unit193> bluesabre: What exactly is it, btw?  A fork of pa-plug, or based off of it..?
<bluesabre> Unit193: additions to pa-plug
<bluesabre> so, a fork for now
<bluesabre> ideally, will get rolled in :)
<Unit193> Yep, indeed!
<ninetls> I hope Andrzej will make a new release at least :D
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-24
<LinuxTabletUser> No Using XUbuntu Im Using Ubuntu 14.04.5 LTS
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-25
<Spass_Cosmic> testing wednesday - I'm on 18.10 install downloading 18.04.1 iso
<Spass_Cosmic> probably a known bug, but Ristretto fails to change the wallpaper on 18.10
<Spass_Cosmic> tbh I don't see a point in including 'Greybird-compact' Xfwm theme by default, and what's funny is the '-compact' version has 2px borders and the standard Greybird has 1px
<Spass_Cosmic> anyway, was playing a bit on current 18.10 on my HDD and besides that Ristretto wallpaper issue it seems to run perfectly fine, also tested 18.04.1 ISO in VM and all was good too
<Spass_Cosmic> well... I'll be repeating myself with those two, but this bug still haunts me - https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=48223 and the panel plugin/indicator icons look inconsistent on big panels (I'm testing on 32-40px panel) </complaints>
<knome> Spass, 10.10 wallpaper also visible after getting the max upload size bumped up; thanks again! (https://xubuntu.org/release/10-10)
<Spass> looks good :) no need to thanks
<knome> of course there is!
<knome> again, every contribution is important :)
<Spass> glad that I've inspired a positive small change
<flocculant> bluesabre: just doing the missing tests - then we'll have a complete set 
<flocculant> and evening lurkers
<bluesabre> flocculant: thanks! I'll get a few more spot tests in tonight or tomorrow morning, sleep deprivation depending :)
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-26
<flocculant> bluesabre: okey doke - regardless of what you manage to do - can you mark them ready, ty :)
<Spass> I have a small suggestion for 18.10+, maybe we could discuss it on the next community meeting
<Spass> that suggestion is - adding XCAPE as default, to make Whisker Menu work with Super key, without changing anything else
<Unit193> !info xcape
<ubottu> xcape (source: xcape): Configure modifier keys to act as other keys when pressed and released. In component universe, is optional. Version 1.2-2 (bionic), package size 11 kB, installed size 32 kB
<Spass> reasoning: 1) xcape it's in the repos 2) it's super light 3) it works 4) many users expect the Super key to bring the main menu
<Unit193> https://github.com/alols/xcape/issues
<Spass> 5) manu distro reviewers (I watch many on YT) will check that behaviour and judge user-friendlyness in regard
<Spass> I'm not saying that xcape s perfect, but for the Whisker Menu purpose it works great
<Spass> all it needs is to be installed and that command in autostart:
<Spass> xcape -e 'Super_L=Control_L|Escape'
<Spass> all other shortcuts work as intended, it changes nothing
<Spass> but like I said, that's just my proposition and opinion
<Unit193> Seems like it'd be a bit more confusing and unexpected to look in the Xfce keyboard config and see nowhere why when you press 'Super' the menu pops up.
<Unit193> Might want to put it on the agenda so it isn't forgotten, Spass?
<Spass> can I even edit the agenda?
<Spass> I would like to add that, yes, it would be a short discussion, but I think it's kinda important to improve the user experience
<Spass> many people consider Super = menu as standard, I'm not saying it's good or bad habit, but that's just the way it is nowadays, IMHO
<Spass> ok, let's test some things, let's ask the community :)
<Spass> https://plus.google.com/100394429915171377792/posts/hVgW3r7psVL
<knome> maybe note that it's not an official poll and more specifically that the outcome of the poll will not (necessarily) decide what happens in xubuntu (especially as it's an unofficial poll) :P
<Spass> ok, didn't want to make it look official at all, but you're right - I'll make a note to clarify that
<Spass> hmm, how to make it sound better? "...and the end results are not binding at any means"
<Spass> "and the end results are not <binding> in any way" (looking for a better word than binding, not sure if it fits, my English is... not so good)
<Spass> anyway, note added, thanks for pointing that out :)
<knome> sounds good to me
<knome> and tbh, this is not a submitter issue, this is people issue; they always interpret these things wrong :P
<Spass> right, some might think that it's "official voting" or something like that, and they'd scream "where's my feature!!!" later :)
<Spass> I need to keep that in mind next time
<knome> indeed
<knome> and this happens even with as-official-as-it-gets-polls or discussion openers
<Spass> btw, I'm testing Skippy-XD (yeah, great name) for the "expose" effect on opened windows on Xubuntu 18.04 and after configuring it a bit it works really well, but don't worry, that I will not propose to be a default :D
<flocculant> bluesabre: I assume it was you who marked the iso ready
<flocculant> thanks :)
<bluesabre> flocculant: indeed :)
<flocculant> we can do it all again next week for 16.04.5 ...
<pleia2> flocculant: how can I help? :)
<flocculant> pleia2: I'm in x.org now - just about to write something :)
<pleia2> ok, well, I'll do the social things at least when we're ready, just lmk
<flocculant> yup cheers :)
<flocculant> pleia2: https://xubuntu.org/news/18-04-1-released/
<pleia2> hooray
<flocculant> something odd - there in a line break or somesuch that I can't find
<flocculant> I'm sure someone or knome will :p
<pleia2> want me to have a look?
<flocculant> you can if you've time - I'm crap at that stuff :D
<pleia2> np
<pleia2> sorted
<flocculant> woohoo - thanks :)
<flocculant> what was it?
<pleia2> it was just a line break, maybe couldn't see it because of how it was wrapping on your screen
<flocculant> right - so I knew 'what' it was at least :p
<pleia2> yeah :)
<Spass> will it be visible in the Articles section here? https://xubuntu.org/release/18-04/
<pleia2> Spass: yeah, let me fix that...
<pleia2> done
<flocculant> oh yea I always forget those things
<flocculant> too
<pleia2> ^5 teamwork
<Spass> cool
<flocculant> ^5
<Spass> ehh, I really don't want to be "that guy", again, but historically you always add "Xubuntu" before the version number in the title https://xubuntu.org/news/category/news/
<Spass> (don't hurt me!)
<flocculant> well you know what happened to history ...
<pleia2> flocculant: you got fb?
<flocculant> I will do yea 
<pleia2> kk
<Spass> flocculant, I'll be quiet now :) congrats for another smooth release to the X team
<flocculant> well
<flocculant> it'd be a lot smoother with more people testing it
<flocculant> but I'm sure you knew I would say something like that :D
<flocculant> pleia2: fb is being dial-up ... but it's apparently uploading it 
<pleia2> twitter and g+ are done
<pleia2> haha
<flocculant> seeding the new torreents for a few days now
<Spass> yeah, but point releases are boring to test :)
<flocculant> testing is boring
<flocculant> if we didn't get them tested - then the user in #xubuntu would have been told that there was in fact not going to be a release
<pleia2> rip flavors that have come before
<flocculant> and then all manner of stuff happens - like Canonical wanting to know why we've not kept our side of the deal
<flocculant> pleia2: indeed
<Spass> I know, that's why I've submitted my test results on the tracker
<flocculant> umm at fb :|
<pleia2> I can do it if you need
 * flocculant has another go first
<flocculant> zand puts the kettle on
<pleia2> I'm off to a meeting momentarily
<flocculant> ok - if it carries on being a pain - perhaps do it later
<pleia2> k
<flocculant> pleia2: something up - if you could do it later please :)
<pleia2> done
<flocculant> thanks - I wonder what was up there 
<flocculant> I don't wonder 'much' however :)
<pleia2> fb is fb, it's awful :)
<flocculant> indeed :D
<flocculant> myabe it would have been better if transmission wasn't sucking the uploads for torrenters
<flocculant> *shrug*
<Spass> my xubuntu-pl website is also updated for 18.04.1 now... heh, no one cares :)
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> well off again now - back soon :)
<pleia2> Spass :)
<voilet> installation again
<voilet> ubiquity and so
<voilet> lttlbt tired
<voilet> uefi and gpt made me :xxx
<knome> voilet, ...you realize this is the development channel?
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-28
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel-profiles 1.0.8 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-panel-profiles-1-0-8-released-tp51451.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<bluesabre> !info apturl
<ubottu> apturl (source: apturl): install packages using the apt protocol - GTK+ frontend. In component main, is optional. Version 0.5.2ubuntu14 (bionic), package size 8 kB, installed size 55 kB
<bluesabre> Unit193: I got a request to include apturl in the iso to make apturl:// links work... thoughts?
<bluesabre> (might be apt://, haven't seen one in a while)
<Unit193> bluesabre: Against it, but not strongly.
<bluesabre> Unit193: any particular reason to keep it out?
<bluesabre> Unit193: suppose I should fix the xubuntu-artwork packaging now that the elementary-xfce source package exists :)
<bluesabre> (thanks for getting that theme nicely packaged up)
<Unit193> bluesabre: I don't think it's useful enough for inclusion, don't really think people go around clicking links on the internet to install software much (and that doesn't seem ideal anyway), don't think many sites use 'em.
<Unit193> No specific reason to exclude it, but IMO no real reason to include it either.
#xubuntu-devel 2018-07-29
<bluesabre> Unit193: thanks. Could be something to consider if we wanted to link to package installs from the docs or something
<bluesabre> Unit193: so, I'm working on making xubuntu-artwork work with elementary-xfce... I have http://paste.ubuntu.com/p/ms9FC2DSFs/ and https://code.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-art/xubuntu-artwork/+git/xubuntu-artwork/+ref/elementary-xfce-transition ... but still running into some issues when installing (https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/r6YnGcDyWk/). Do you have any idea what I might be missing at this point?
<bluesabre> been poking at it for a while now, so it might be just something dumb that I'm missing from looking at the same thing for a while
<Unit193> bluesabre: What happens if you leave the xubuntu-artwork depends as they are?
<Unit193> Ah.  You depend on elementary-xfce-icon-theme (>= 0.12-2), so it wants to install that, but then elementary-xfce-icon-theme breaks/replaces xubuntu-icon-theme so it wants that to be updated.
<Unit193> If I am reading this right.
<Unit193> bluesabre: Perhaps you just want to 1ubuntu1 elementary?  Also please poke ochosi before uploading, last I remember he didn't like my new creation! :(  (Nah, just wanted pngs over svgs.)
<Unit193> I, of course, would think it'd be great if we used this, but either way I think it's good to be in Debian (so I can use it there. >_>)
<bluesabre> Unit193: yeah, trying to figure out how to safely transition the package... remove the contents of xubuntu-icon-theme, install elementary-xfce-icon-theme, then patch the theme with update-alternatives
<bluesabre> Not opposed to ubuntu-fying it
<bluesabre> and then reducing the delta afterwards
<bluesabre> but the transition seems weird
<Unit193> That is, s/conflicts/breaks+replaces/ part.
<bluesabre> oh right
<Unit193> Did you read the rest of it?  Drop the versioned dep in x-i-t and re-try?
<Unit193> I kind of recently did this very thing, actually.
<bluesabre> Alrighty, will try that
<Unit193> Package a: 
<Unit193> +Breaks: elementary-shimmer-icon-theme (<< 0.13)
<Unit193> +Replaces: elementary-shimmer-icon-theme (<< 0.13)
<Unit193> Package B: Depends: ${misc:Depends}, elementary-xfce-icon-theme
<Unit193> (Package C retained the elementary-shimmer-icon-theme dep/rec for the time being.)
<bluesabre> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/3VQHgMJHkf/
 * Unit193 tries
 * bluesabre sleeps
<bluesabre> long dayyyyyy
<bluesabre> nighty Unit193
<Unit193> bluesabre: http://paste.openstack.org/show/726793/ ?
<bluesabre> huh
<bluesabre> suppose I'll try that in a vm then
<bluesabre> dev env is always a mess
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/beT0sNzQtAc4e9CkT6P5
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/c6eUYvI2HXLDl72bwwTY
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfwm4 4.12.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfwm4-4-12-5-released-tp51453.html (by Olivier Fourdan)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfwm4 4.13.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfwm4-4-13-1-released-tp51456.html (by Olivier Fourdan)
<Unit193> Wow.
<knome> (:
<knome> so i stitched together an admin menu for all release-related stuff...
<knome> visible in staging if you are interested
<knome> showing the right parent menu isn't working yet, but that's coming too
<knome> just reusing the somewhat crappy admin pages (or just not the most appropriate really) for now
<knome> they work though, without any code...
<knome> ...and correct menu is now highlighted, woohoo
<knome> ..in most cases at least
<knome> and should now be in all cases
#xubuntu-devel 2019-07-22
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is knome
#xubuntu-devel 2019-07-23
<gnutec> I guess Parole is a good multimÃ­dia player and light.
<knome> yes.
<bluesabre> Definitely. :)
<flocculant> so is vlc ...
<flocculant> :D
<flocculant> if we QT - I'd want cantata and mpd because that works perfectly for me ;)
<Unit193> I'm one of those odd people, mpv and vlc.
<flocculant> :D
<Unit193> It helps that you can paste the url of quite a number of sites to play with mpv and it will.
<Unit193> https://sources.debian.org/src/mpv/0.29.1-1/player/lua/ytdl_hook.lua/
#xubuntu-devel 2019-07-26
<Unit193> Not that it'd be very useful, but I can have SwissBot give a reminder in here once a week as to who's next to schedule a meeting if that'd be useful.
<ochosi> Unit193: yes please
<ochosi> otherwise we won't have meetings anymore at all
<Unit193> OK, on Mondays it is.  Something like this.
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is knome
<ochosi> yeah, looks good!
<knome> hah.
<knome> thanks for the reminder.
#xubuntu-devel 2019-07-27
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: exo 0.12.7 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-exo-0-12-7-released-tp54950.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<Unit193> Just a translation update?
<bluesabre> Yes
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: catfish 1.4.8 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-catfish-1-4-8-released-tp54951.html (by Sean Davis-6)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: parole 1.0.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-parole-1-0-3-released-tp54955.html (by Sean Davis-6)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfwm4 4.13.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfwm4-4-13-4-released-tp54959.html (by Olivier Fourdan)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: garcon 0.6.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-garcon-0-6-4-released-tp54961.html (by Romain Bouvier)
<gnutec> Codeblocks or glade?
<Unit193> I guess here fits?  bluesabre: I don't suppose you have any opinions on that email you just got?
#xubuntu-devel 2019-07-28
<bluesabre> Unit193: other than I currently use Dropbox so yay?
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-session 4.13.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-session-4-13-4-released-tp54969.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel 4.13.7 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-panel-4-13-7-released-tp54971.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-power-manager 1.6.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-power-manager-1-6-4-released-tp54973.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-settings 4.13.8 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-settings-4-13-8-released-tp54975.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: mousepad 0.4.2 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-mousepad-0-4-2-released-tp54977.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: thunar-volman 0.9.4 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-thunar-volman-0-9-4-released-tp54979.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: libxfce4ui 4.13.7 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-libxfce4ui-4-13-7-released-tp54981.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: tumbler 0.2.6 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-tumbler-0-2-6-released-tp54983.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: libxfce4util 4.13.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-libxfce4util-4-13-5-released-tp54985.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfdesktop 4.13.6 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfdesktop-4-13-6-released-tp54987.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-appfinder 4.13.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-appfinder-4-13-5-released-tp54989.html (by AndrÃ© Miranda)
<Unit193> Welp, that's more than a couple.
<Unit193> - Add pkexec policy (Bug #11088) 
<Unit193> Nice.
<ubottu> bug 11088 in Ubuntu "scm: new changes from Debian require merging" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/11088
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-screensaver 0.1.7 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-screensaver-0-1-7-released-tp54996.html (by Sean Davis-6)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-panel-profiles 1.0.9 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-panel-profiles-1-0-9-released-tp54998.html (by Sean Davis-6)
<bluesabre> Adding this to the release list, because why not :) https://github.com/bluesabre/mugshot/releases/tag/mugshot-0.4.2
<Unit193> I'm not in PAPT, but if you need sponsored I can or I can poke someone that is.
<bluesabre> Gotcha
<bluesabre> Will probably do packaging things over the next few days, unless I somehow get to it tonight :)
<ochosi> kewl
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: Xfce 4.14pre3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-Xfce-4-14pre3-released-tp55005.html (by Simon Steinbeiss)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-20
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- Reminder: Next meeting chair is knome
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Seed octavia packages @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=8ea6920be0a0f82f001c37679ff2303820c22759 (by Corey Bryant)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Seed python3-ovn-octavia-provider @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=c1d870f5d5c18e9251d1b468f1f2051a71fb7304 (by Corey Bryant)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-21
<DarkTrick> There's a function in some programs (e.g. pdf reader or gimp(?)), when you press the middle mouse button you "grab" the view and move it around (like on a tablet, if you zoom in an image and move the shown part around through tabs). Could such a functionality be implemented on a OS level or does every toolkit (gtk, qt, ...) need to implement it?
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin 2.4.5 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin-2-4-5-released-tp59305.html (by Graeme Gott)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-22
<xubuntu29> hey
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Seed tlp for OEM meta @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=2baf33ea5ecbe7b0cb54307d6721db8f38a384ed (by Dimitri John Ledkov)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Seed adcli and realmd @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=227cd2d3bed15cbac8bd39f085071799e7a1aa15 (by Andreas Hasenack)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: remove popularity-contest from standard seed @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=82c97be2eee777cb2f579474259cf86e51fe3a8f (by Michael Hudson-Doyle)
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::platform:: Merge branch 'remove-popularity-contest' into groovy @ http://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/platform/commit/?id=565d6c2e7bcc065334439c5b03b1fe0992bb0803 (by Michael Hudson-Doyle)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-23
<jphilips> bluesabre: any thoughts on how i can fix this - https://gitlab.xfce.org/apps/xfce4-screensaver/-/issues/52
<ubot93> Issue 52 in apps/xfce4-screensaver "Screensaver Preferences: can't change idle time with keyboard" [Opened]
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin 2.4.6 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin-2-4-6-released-tp59311.html (by Graeme Gott)
<Unit193> Crap.
<Unit193> bluesabre: You still good, alive?
<bluesabre> Unit193: alive, just stretched thin :)
<Unit193> Figured that latter part.
<Unit193> Hope it eases up soon.
<bluesabre> Vacation starts tomorrow, so thatâs a massive relief... just got a ton of things Iâve gotta do today
<DarkTrick> Hm... is it possible to write into window frames of xorg? E.g. to create buttons there like for Client-side-windows?
<jphilips> bluesabre: is there a git repo of your UI theming app that you were working on?
<DarkTrick> bluesabre, if you have a git repo, I would also be highly interested in a link. Could you mention my name in that case?
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfce4-timer-plugin 1.7.1 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfce4-timer-plugin-1-7-1-released-tp59313.html (by Andre Miranda)
#xubuntu-devel 2020-07-26
<DarkTrick> bug@upgrade 19.10 -> 20.04 @ibus-anthy: keyboard layout of ibus-anthy changed from Japanese to "Default" (which was English). Expected: Keyboard-layout of ibus-anthy should not change.
<DarkTrick> bug after upgrade 19.10 -> 20.04 @ application menu: (1) open menu (2) search something (eg "office") (3) press arrow-down key (4) actual: nothing happens, expected: select first entry of menu
<DarkTrick> freecad dependencies cannot be installed on 20.04
-SwissBot:#xubuntu-devel- ::xfce4-announce:: ANNOUNCE: xfwm4 4.14.3 released @ http://xfce.10915.n7.nabble.com/ANNOUNCE-xfwm4-4-14-3-released-tp59323.html (by Olivier Fourdan)
