#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-16
<ChrisH> plovs: rst2xml? Interesting. I fear I need to learn python before though. :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Yes... complete luxuary. 7 hours of sleep. Hooray!
<fabbione> there.. it's done
<fabbione> have fun
<sivang> we have our own log now!
<sivang> Horray for Fabbione
* sivang went to make something to eat.
<ChrisH> Where are the logs? Because I had modified an IRC bot a few weeks ago to log everything into a database. So everyone could query what was happening when. But if there is already a working solution...
<plovs_work> ChrisH, an irc bot with mysql or something?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Yes. I start a "chrisbot" some time ago when I learned how to use POE (perl object environment).
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I'm just testing the bot so we have redundancy. :)
<plovs_work> that would be nice, and then a web frontend to the database?
<WW> plovs_work: Hi there
<plovs_work> WW, hi
<WW> plovs_work: What's the latest on macros (or something equivalent) in the wiki?  Anything new?
<ChrisH> WW: hi
<WW> ChrisH: Hi ChrisH
<ChrisH> plovs_work: a tiny gui to the database (currently improving it a little): http://workaround.org/irc
<plovs_work> :-) (smiling for the camera)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, neat!
<ChrisH> plovs_work: And real time. :)
<WW> ChrisH: Hey, that thing is live?! Cool.
<ChrisH> plovs_work: At least as long as mentors.debian.net is working because that's where the script lives on. :)
<ChrisH> WW: Yes. I'm surprised, too, that it works. :)
<plovs_work> and you log to mysql?
<ChrisH> Yep.
<ChrisH> Haven't yet switched to postgresql on that machine.
<plovs_work> thinking about a search-thingie?
<ChrisH> Yes. By text, by nick... It can even log multiple channels.
<ChrisH> There are just some to do's left like auto-rejoin on server failure etc.
<plovs_work> so...you might add #ubuntu #ubuntu-devel?
* ChrisH is https://www.ubuntulinux.org/portal_memberdata/portraits/490
<ChrisH> Just joined all three channels. :)
<WW> ChrisH: Does it print "[names]  -: ..." every time someone enters the room?
<ChrisH> WW: I think it just does that when it enters the channel itself.
<plovs_work> how did you get to https://www.ubuntulinux.org/portal_memberdata/portraits/490 ?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Set it in my "personal preferences" i my wiki account
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I just don't know how I can use that portrait.
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Took a shot with my digicam yesterday evening and gimp'ed it. :)
<ChrisH> plovs_work: My wife was looking a little confused when I started to smile for nothing and took photos of myself.
<plovs_work> ah, well you can add it to your "home page"
<plovs_work> smiling at your computer, well women who marry geeks must be used to something
<plovs_work> ChrisH, btw you have great postfix stuff
<ChrisH> Thanks. Took a while. :) But it's really nice. I worked on the new tutorials for three weeks during my holidays. And now I'm getting mails about that nearly every day.
<ChrisH> Writing correct technical documentation can become very time consuming.
<ChrisH> Ask the people who have offered to translate the documents. They are still on it.
<plovs_work> postfix is the easiest of mail-servers i think but that does not make it simple, great job.
<plovs_work> the only thing i have not been able to do (and i even bought the book) is having a white-list of users allowed to send mail
<plovs_work> it is in the faq, but without answer :(
<ChrisH> Are you restricting who is allowed to send mail from your internal network?
<plovs_work> well, not yet
<plovs_work> we have two networks, an internal one, and an 'external one'
<plovs_work> everybody can sent mail from the external one
<plovs_work> but the internal is highly restrictive
<plovs_work> at least it is supposed to be
<plovs_work> the good thing is: one virus in seven (!) years
<ChrisH> I recently wiped away my virus directory. 3000 mails in half a year. Yowser!
<plovs_work> i meant one went in, off course there is plenty left
<plovs_work> i am going to redo the network, the coming months, i might use your howto for woody
<ChrisH> Just ask if you need help on the config. I think I could help.
<plovs_work> nice!
<plovs_work> i use MailScanner atm, with postfix 2.0 backport and amavis
<plovs_work> but it is all spagetti now and i want to do it right(tm) without backports, only debian stable
<ChrisH> Are you running the server on Ubuntu? Because I tend to keep Debian on the servers and just use Ubuntu on the workstations.
<ChrisH> Qustion answered. :)
<plovs_work> woody+backports.org
<plovs_work> i love ubuntu, but am not yet willing to risk my job with it
<plovs_work> ChrisH, do you use apt-proxy?
<ChrisH> I did. But at home I just have Debian for my wife and me (server is Woody).
<ChrisH> At work I have set up a complete debian mirror. Nice updating systems through 100 Mbps. :)
<ChrisH> apt-proxy is darn slow. :(
<plovs_work> i would like to get apt-proxy working for ubuntu as well
<plovs_work> a mirror would be too havy, we have 4 ubuntu-boxes now
<plovs_work> and 4 in the other network
<ChrisH> Probably. I converted my whole sysadmin department to Debian. :) Plus we have 10-15 servers in the computer rooms running Woody and Sarge. It's probably the same traffic to the mirrors but we are saving time.
<plovs_work> 10-15 is nice, i have 5 servers running woody/sarge,2 bsd firewalls,  rest all w2k
<plovs_work> the interisting thing is that only the windows servers require maintenance
<ChrisH> Get a SUS server. :)
<plovs_work> yes, that is the plan, but i need one more server to do so
<plovs_work> and test it off course etc
<plovs_work> my internal compuetrs have not been updated for over a year now :-( ,but i hate windows updating by hand
<plovs_work> ChrisH, the bot is down! mayday!
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Yes, had to fix a bug.
* ChrisH summons the powers of the logbot...
<plovs_work> nice new name 
<ChrisH> Old name. :)
<plovs_work> ah, you are not ubuntulog, need to clean my glasses
<ChrisH> Perhaps ubuntulog is what fabbione provides.
<plovs_work> 'spose so
<plovs_work> ok, off to hang out with the friends, see you!
<hornbeck> hello
<ChrisH> hornbeck: hi
<hornbeck> hows things this morning
<ChrisH> hornbeck: morning? Well, that's relative. :)
<hornbeck> well morning for me
<hornbeck> night more than likly for you
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Am playing with my realtime irc logger.
<ChrisH> Nah... 15:13 here.
<hornbeck> ahh, so afternoon
<ChrisH> Nothing to do at work so I'm working on my docbook tutorial and on that very irc bot.
<hornbeck> realtime irc logger huh, sounds interesting
<ChrisH> Beta: http://workaround.org/irc
<hornbeck> ohhh docbook tutorial
<hornbeck> man that is nice, what is that written in?
<ChrisH> In fact the tutorial is 90% done. But I seem to lack some knowledge of the ReST wiki language.
<hornbeck> I can help with the ReST part if you want
<ChrisH> The bot is a Perl bot using the POE environment. The web interface is a PHP 10-liner. I'm currently beautifying it. :)
<hornbeck> man that is nice
<hornbeck> good job
<ChrisH> hornbeck: plovs already gave me a link. Just need to read a little I suppose.
<hornbeck> ok, thats cool
<ChrisH> Thanks. I'm in the mood for something useless and redundant. :)
<hornbeck> useless and redundant huh, sounds like you are having way to much fun
<plovs_work> hornbeck, hi!
<plovs_work> i hate summertime
<plovs_work> when it's wintertime
<plovs_work> i was wondering why i was the first to leavem usually i'm the last
<hornbeck> hey plovs
<hornbeck> its amazing how one part of the wiki says "You are now logged in" when the other part says "Log in"
<hornbeck> I really hate how this new wiki screws up alot
<ChrisH> Did you notice that sometimes the wiki (especially the login procedure) is very slow? Or is it just me?
<hornbeck> yes it is
<hornbeck> right now it will not let me edit my beagle page
<hornbeck> hey plovs_work how do you change the size of picture in the wiki
<hornbeck> my beagle icon is real big on your icon page
<hornbeck> crap, I gotta run, later guys
<plovs_work> if you get "You are now logged in" when the other part says "Log in" relaod the page
<plovs_work> with shift
<plovs_work> ChrisH, can you make the web-page automatically update itself?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: sounds like your cache is faulty. you aren't using the IE, are you?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: yes... :)
<ChrisH> plovs_work: my current work: http://workaround.org/cgi-bin/irc
<plovs_work> ChrisH, you know i have a simple taste: instant gratification, great!
<ChrisH> plovs_work: ;)
<plovs_work> i use firefox, and everybody has this problem ... really weird
<ChrisH> I had that once, too. You better tell it to "reload the page on every request" instead of its automatic mode.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, how do i do that?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Hmm. Looks like Firefox has no setting for that. Try setting the cache to 0.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, that's not funny either...
<plovs_work> they should just fix the site
<plovs_work> ok, see you later...
<sivang> So, anything new everybody?
<sivang> I've seen rather lots of traffic went here :)
<ChrisH> The docbook-xml article is nearly done in raw format. I need to wiki it.
<sivang> great!
<sivang> this will be the first doc team docbook xml primer
<sivang> :)
<sivang> we really needed that.
<ChrisH> It's just a "Getting started" guide. I intend to add information on custom stylesheets, output formats and the like during the weekend.
<sivang> great.I will shortly follow it, I had already started with docbook xml but found most of the resources assume too much knowledge in it already.
<ChrisH> I hope I can ask you for help in case Wiki starts to hate me. :)
<sivang> yes ofcourse.
<sivang> I've got used to it by now, although do not know if it's worth of studying RST, I think I would instead go straight for DocBook XML :)
<sivang> althouh the pythin script that converts it looks very nice
<sivang> btw, the weblog of the channel looks exquisite
<sivang> how did you do that?
<ChrisH> Advanced magic.
<sivang> hmm, ok, and now for some juicy details ?:)
<ChrisH> Two parts. One is a Perl script I call "logbot". It uses POE::Components::IRC and is an automated IRC client that sniffs different channels and keeps track who is where.
<ChrisH> The log lines are written into a MySQL database. The second part is a Perl script that get the needed information from the database.
<ChrisH> I had an IRC bot half ready. And as work today was boring I decided to make it a log bot. ;)
<sivang> coool
<sivang> ChrisH : when I asked from canonical to set us a log , I wasn't aware that you already set it up BTW
<ChrisH> sivang: fabbione?
<sivang> ChrisH  : yes
<sivang> yo pl0vs
<ChrisH> sivang: I wasn't fast enough. He popped in and did something. I was about to ask if someone would be interested in my solution.
<ChrisH> sivang: where is his log?
<sivang> ChrisH : I am not sure, I don't think it would be a problem for  you to handle this , you would just need the proper access to the official website or archives,
<sivang> wwhy don't you discuss this with him?
<ChrisH> sivang: I do
<pl0vs> hi huys!
<sivang> hey alex, how you been ?
<pl0vs> great, just been to the movies
<sivang> yeah? which movie did you see?
<pl0vs> arthur, hadn\t seen it and it was in the re=run cinema, really cheap
<sivang> nice, you said you live in the netherlands right?
<pl0vs> i was born in the netherlands, and spent my youth there, now i live in latvia
<pl0vs> ChrisH, what was the backlog address again, can you maybe put it in the topic?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: sure
<sivang> pl0vs : the log chrisH had setup is very cool
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+o ChrisH]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:ChrisH] : Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://workaround.org/cgi-bin/irc
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-o ChrisH]  by ChrisH
<pl0vs> ChrisH, how can i see the backlog?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: just use the url
<sivang> http://workaround.org/cgi-bin/irc
<sivang> ^-- pl0vs
<sivang> it's real nice
<pl0vs> yes but back in time
<pl0vs> not the last 100 but before that
<ChrisH> I had to clear the logs two hours ago due to some bugs. :)
<pl0vs> sivang, i saw that you moved the teams, great work
<pl0vs> btw i got an ok from jimmac to use his icons on the wiki, he makes really nice stuff
<sivang> great
<sivang> pl0vs : sorry, I didn't move them yet - but I'll have it by end of weekend, I was unfourtanetly busy with physical world stuff..
<sivang> pl0vs : I guess what we see there was already there.
<sivang> do you have a link?
* sivang is going and will be back tommorow.
<sivang> night meanwhile , all
<pl0vs> sivang, a link of what, the icons? it's in the doclist
<pl0vs> sivang, night!
<ChrisH> sivang: nite
* ChrisH is still testing the botlog
<pl0vs> ChrisH, keep on testing!
<ChrisH> That action was just for the logs. :) I forgot to implement "/me" actions. :)
<pl0vs> :)
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-17
<pl0vs> WW, hi
<WW> pl0vs: Hey there.  I was away lighting the fire.
<pl0vs> just finished cleaning up some more pages
<WW> I noticed!  Looks like you're keeping busy :)
<pl0vs> there is still a lot to be done before we have really good docs
<pl0vs> we still have lots of empty pages
<WW> What happened to your "minimalist" Front Page?
<pl0vs> upstream preferred a less minimalistic approach
<pl0vs> it's not too bad, a little full but well, that;s how it is
<WW> Ah.  I haven't check what most of the links contain, but it looks like a lot of it should be static content on the regular web page.
<pl0vs> the philosophy is, within 3 links you are on the destination, that is hard with very little links
<WW> So the preference is wide, shallow trees.
<pl0vs> yes, like nautilus
<pl0vs> i am more used to deeper trees, but i can see the logic
<pl0vs> at least i got icons :)
<WW> "Policies & Procedures", "Promotion & Events", "Releases"... would it make sense for these to be on the main page? 
<pl0vs> how is the faq going?
<pl0vs> Procedures, is used by devs
<pl0vs> Releases, has lots of docs behind it
<WW> Well, whatever, I'm sure there are good reasons...
<pl0vs> Promotions & Events is empty, but lulu insisted on it, we can always (re)move it later if it does not get used
<pl0vs> no 1 reason, we needed a new page fast, that's done
<WW> The FAQ, however, seems to have moved down the tree a bit... but I guess it is still within three clicks to get to it. :)
<pl0vs> but it used to be twice as long
<WW> Maybe Lulu should google for YAGNI.
<pl0vs> the FAQ needs to be on the frontpage
<pl0vs> i like kiss
<WW> What's the latest on macros (or something equivalent) in ReST or moin or whatever...
<pl0vs> it will balance out over time, i think some things will move to support, and FrontPage will shrink to nice and minimal
<pl0vs> they *still* have not finished installing the site, it still is slow, and caches badly, so no time to code :(
<pl0vs> ReST hast some sort of TOC but it is turned of
<WW> I have a couple small things that I would add to the FAQ, but without some sort of TOC, the page is already too long.
<pl0vs> i will bug lulu (again) on monday
<pl0vs> maybe an idea is to remove some stuff, as it is also covered somewhere else
<pl0vs> like mono, maybe a link will do
<pl0vs> mp3 has a page as well
<pl0vs> i think you should add (good) points, gives us more reasons for a TOC
<pl0vs> and feel free to make remarks about the FrontPage, it is not yet finished, a wiki never is
<pl0vs> (just as long you don't ditch all my icons)
<WW> ...otherwise it wouldn't be a wiki! :)
<pl0vs> :)
<pl0vs> right!
<pl0vs> no reason to be overly attached to some page
<WW> Have you just been collecting icons from the web, snagging whatever looks good?
<pl0vs> no, it is all legal
<WW> (and is free, of course)
<pl0vs> i spoke with jimmac and the gnome people
<pl0vs> it is all theirs, and Aaron made one icon
<WW> Ah, cool.
<pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/IconsPage
<pl0vs> i especially like http://jimmac.musichall.cz/ikony.php3
<pl0vs> i really like the way jimmac draws
<pl0vs> it is my absolute favourite, better then mac kde anything (i think)
<WW> I agree, pretty slick.
<pl0vs> but again, feel free to make recommendations etc, just don't steel icons from apple or so ;) they get easily aggitated
<pl0vs> and add your own off course
<WW> Right.
<pl0vs> what you might do is add a toc by hand in ReST
<pl0vs> it is a pain off course but better then nothing maybe, i don't know
<WW> I thought about doing that (like the test I put in the WikiSandBox), but a simple TableOfContents macro would make all the work instantly obsolete!
<pl0vs> [[TableOfContents] ]  we miss you
<WW> That's why I've been waiting to see what happens.
<pl0vs> don't hold your breath, things move slooow
<WW> Also, I suspect completely rewriting the FAQ in ReST might make some people unhappy.
<pl0vs> i believe in meritocracy
<pl0vs> you work, you choose
<pl0vs> i only make ReST pages
<pl0vs> if people don't like it, then they should type faster
<pl0vs> i think you are the only one touching the FAQ atm
<WW> And you know, the FAQ hasn't changed in quite a while... maybe it
<WW> it's time for a shake-up.
<pl0vs> just make it as clear as possible, maybe like: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<pl0vs> look in the source
<WW> I'll take a look...
<pl0vs> if somebody complains, tell them to complain in the doc-list
<pl0vs> and i will definately flame them for it
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> burroughs.freenode.net
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> burroughs.freenode.net
<sivang> morning folks :)
<ChrisH> sivang: moin
* ChrisH is off to go shopping with wife and kids
<sivang> Have fun ChrishH
<sivang> morning pl0vs
<ChrisH> Heck. Those other customers in the supermarket behave like it's the last day they every can buy something.
<sivang> ChrisH : this happens in germeny also ???
<sivang> I thought this was centric to Israel only haha
<ChrisH> hi, hornbeck :)
<hornbeck> Hey ChrisH
<hornbeck> I just got done with your great backlog
<sivang> Hi JOHN!
<sivang> what;s up?
<ChrisH> I was pretty surprised that it still worked this morning. :)
<hornbeck> hey sivang
<sivang> what do you think of our newly addition to the doc team? the amazing ChrisH :) ?
<hornbeck> I think he is great
<ChrisH> sivang: Put down the "Applause" sign, please. :)
<sivang> haha
<hornbeck> sorry I have not been around
* sivang really likes the backlog
<hornbeck> I had a hot water tank bust, had to tear out a wall to get to it, and still am not done
<ChrisH> Any features that you would like to see in the log?
<sivang> ah
<hornbeck> I should be back to full speed monday
<sivang> no problem,
<sivang> after all it *is* the weekend
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> well this crap has been going on since wednesday
<hornbeck> :-)
<hornbeck> one crappy weekend
<hornbeck> does anyone else use a laptop with Ubuntu?
<ChrisH> Yes.
<hornbeck> does it drain your battery fast?
<hornbeck> I have dual battery and it just goes fast
<ChrisH> Toshiba Satellite - works well. The Toshiba Tecra at work doesn't do power management and has audio trouble though. Already told mjg59.
<ChrisH> Didn't try it that long though. KDE on Debian Sarge worked a lot better IMHO.
<hornbeck> I am on a dell 600m and everything works just uses alot of power
<ChrisH> But laptops and linux is a hard issue.
<hornbeck> yeah it is
<sivang> hornbeck : uptill now, it has drained my battery,
<sivang> heat up the system
<sivang> work slow as HELLLL
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I reverted to debian sarge on the laptop for the meanwhile
<hornbeck> ahh
<sivang> But I might give another chance for Ubuntu on the laptop,
<sivang> using only ext3 filesystem.
<ChrisH> And I also have Sid still on this PC because I need to do debian package maintenance. There are fewer workstations on ubuntu than I wanted to have.
<hornbeck> Hoary made my laptop heat up fast
<sivang> there have been reports that XFS / resierfs have several issues
<sivang> unclosed ones :)
<sivang> which might cause excessive disk activity etc.
<hornbeck> I have all my stuff on Ubuntu at the moment
<sivang> ChrisH : I have only one desktop system (the strongest of them all here) with Ubuntu.
<hornbeck> yeah I reverted to ext3 and it works alittle better
<ChrisH> Isn't reiserfs going commercial anyway?
<sivang> everything else is using debian
<sivang> commercial?
<sivang> you mean, they change thier license?
<ChrisH> I thought I read something that reiserfs4 is no longer bsd/gpl.
<sivang> I thought they were to stay GPL
<hornbeck> reiserfs has two licenses
<ChrisH> reiserfs has screwed a lot of data here. I'm staying on ext3 although xfs is really fast on the proxys.
<hornbeck> gpl, and a I won't tell if you are using it license
<sivang> as soon as XFS gets more stable ,
<sivang> for a more wide range of hardware - e.g. laptops etc.
<sivang> that would be cool.
<sivang> I am using reiserfs for /
<sivang> XFS for /home
<sivang> and ext3 for /boot
<sivang> on this desktop
<sivang> with full fledged Ubuntu.
<sivang> but this is a 2.6Gigs HT 512MB machine
<sivang> with 2 7200RPM, ATA100 harddrives.
<sivang> ubuntu nearly "killed" the dell inspiron 8200 :)
<ChrisH> btw, why is there no german home page for ubuntu yet? ubuntulinux.de has already been registered. Could I help with that?
<ChrisH> Ubuntu is slowly becoming famous over here.
<sivang> ChrisH : talk to mako, he is your man. oh, and lulu ofcourse.
<sivang> There are quite some very nice germen people already on the project, which might help you set up it
<hornbeck> boy, you have to love coffee
* ChrisH will post on -doc
<sivang> mako deals with everything community, and lulu is the site(s) admin :)
<sivang> I love REDMUG
<ChrisH> mako also from canonical?
<sivang> yes
<ChrisH> k
<sivang> he's the community guy 
<hornbeck> brb, reading the gnome planet site
<sivang> hornbeck : you on black coffe there?
* ChrisH is on cappuccino
<sivang> ah cappuccino is great, although bit expansive here comapred to other stuff
<hornbeck> sivang: alittle milk, alittle suger
<sivang> on the black? I prefer it traditional arabic black, we call it "mud" coffe here - because it sinks to the bottom of the glass and looks like mud :)
<sivang> there is also an arabic/hindo spice there - "Hel"
<sivang> it adds bits of bitterness and spice to the coffe
<hornbeck> we have coffee
<hornbeck> I never buy different coffee
<hornbeck> folgers is what I buy
<sivang> can you send a link ? pic ?
<hornbeck> of the coffee?
<sivang> yes
<sivang> :)
<sivang> or the package
<hornbeck> http://www.folgers.com/
<ChrisH> We should open #ubuntu-coffee for the morning chitchat. :)
<hornbeck> yes
<sivang> yeah :)
<sivang> ah cool
<sivang> you seen this:
<sivang> http://www.folgers.com/blend/index.shtml
<hornbeck> no I don't really look around coffee sites much
<hornbeck> I am folgers french roast
<hornbeck> well I am going to be out for a second to read email
<hornbeck> back in about ten minutes
<sivang> who are the other guy besides sparkes that is no longer on the doc team?
<sivang> is John Levin still with us?
<sivang> or was it ben edwards who signed off ?
<hornbeck> ben edwards
<hornbeck> he said he may start helping again when he has time
<sivang> ok, no prob.
<sivang> so Levin still with us?
<sivang> you happen to have his email? (I am working on the main site docteam page)
<hornbeck> let me see if I can pull it up real quick
<hornbeck> john@technolalia.org
<hornbeck> damn that will be logged and posted to a website
<sivang> why is that a problem?
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> damn spam spiders
<sivang> oh shit
<sivang> I didn't realize
<sivang> :(
<hornbeck> yeah
<sivang> ChrisH : you have an idea ?
<sivang> how we might protect ourselves ?
<hornbeck> hornbeck@SPAMFREEfreeshell.org
<sivang> oh
<hornbeck> or hornbeck at freeshell dot org
<sivang> we should be foastering this way of discussion URLs agreed
<hornbeck> huh?
<hornbeck> well guys I am off for now, have to get this hotwater tank in
<hornbeck> I will try to get back on and get some work done later
<sivang> c'ya !
<hornbeck> monday starts "get the book going good" week :-)
<hornbeck> later
<ChrisH> sivang: if you use an email account on my server you will hardly get any spam
<ChrisH> sivang: I'm an active in the "anti-spam scene" and have built up good measures to block off spammers.
<ChrisH> sivang: half of my incoming emails are spam. But I only get one spam per day and 100 ham mails.
<ChrisH> sivang: I could as well create sivang@member.of.ubuntu.and.sick.of.spam.workaround.org :) But that's probably overkill.
<sivang> yes it would be an overkill :)
<sivang> hey WW
<WW> Hi there
<WW> If you have a minute, take a look at NewFAQTest on the wiki (and compare to FrequentlyAskedQuestions).
<sivang> I will, later, I have to go for about 30 minutes :)
<sivang> boy, the new FAQ by WW sure looks good, have you given it a look ChrisH ?
<sivang> hey kevin!
<sivang> I'm sorry I havn't been responsive to your inquiries,
<kmulligan> greets
<ChrisH> sivang: I have. Two broken links. But looks good otherwise.
<ChrisH> kmulligan: Cheers.
<kmulligan> Greets all :)
<sivang> kmulligan : if you'd like, mail me at sivan@workaround.org, with stuff you require from me and I will follow it item by item :)
<kmulligan> what do you mean stuff i require?
<sivang> hmm, in relation to linuxinto primerily
<sivang> we "talked" a bit on the wiki
<sivang> Oh, and I thought it would be better clarify that the LinuxInto / StartingTheJoureny doesn't intend to be a practical guide,
<sivang> I inted to discuss the background a user needs to know prior to even using a howto or a tutorial for practical benefits.
<sivang> but, the input you provided could very well serve me on a sequal to that doc,
<kmulligan> ah
<sivang> in a form of something more practical or get merged into FirstSteps which is currently very very basic
<sivang> oh
<sivang> and I recalled you asked me something about making special keyboard keys work under X
<sivang> I will momentarily send you a nice link,
<sivang> sec.
<kmulligan> i think it was just how to switch workspaces
<kmulligan> i found it and put it on linuxintrowishes
<kmulligan> ctrl + alt + <-- or -->
<kmulligan> the only other thing than that was getting mouse 3/4/5 to work
<sivang> yes,
<sivang> well this part invloves some 2 utilities from X.
<sivang> one in which you capture the key codes the keys on the mouse would produce,
<sivang> the other sets up a specific program or alike to react to it,
<kmulligan> ok
<sivang> frankyl, I have used it mostly in XMMS as the reciving application has to implement some kind of interaction with the fireing up process from X
<plovs> hi guys
<ChrisH> plovs: skol
<kmulligan> greets
<plovs> kmulligan, so you found your way to irc?
<kmulligan> indeed
<plovs> nie!
<plovs> nice! 
<kmulligan> ive used it before, just didn't know if one came loaded
<ChrisH> Is there another place than the IRC?
* ChrisH has changed the irclog URL to something easier: http://irclog.workaround.org
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:ChrisH] : Ubuntu Doc Team - general discussion - backlog at http://irclog.workaround.org
<plovs> ChrisH, nie very usefull, i love irce
<ChrisH> IRC is easy to get addicted to.
<sivang> hi plovs, what's up?
<sivang> I
<sivang> Have started to move thing into main site
<plovs> sivang, good! 
<plovs> i am just looking at what's new, i like the FAQ
<plovs> WW is doing a nice job
<plovs> NewFAQTest
<sivang> I think we should move the faq by WW to be official faq, it's very nice
<ChrisH> Is there someone following ubuntu-doc and putting that up in the faq?
<plovs> yes, he did a good job, looks much better, allthough it needs some more cleaning, some stuff is double in the wiki
<ChrisH> Errr. s/ubuntu-doc/ubuntu-users/
<plovs> ChrisH, ah, ok
<plovs> ChrisH, i read only the interisting pieces, it is too much
<plovs> WW, hi!
<WW> Hey there.
<plovs> kust talkning about you
<WW> ChrisH: I noticed.  That irclog is awesome.
<WW> :)
* plovs says: man, i can't type and eat in the same time
<ChrisH> WW: Bloody lurker! Thanks. :)
<ChrisH> plovs: We need to be careful when bashing WW. He's reading us. ;)
<plovs> ;)
<WW> ChrisH: Nah, not lurking, just joined and then decided to see what was up.
<sivang> WW what is your name ? (I am not sure if I know who you are)
<plovs> ww, but, nice the new faq
<WW> sivang: Warren, but I also use WW on the wiki.
<sivang> ah ok 
<plovs> WW, you have no icons on your FAQ?
* sivang notes that plovs has an icon fever
* plovs thinks life would not be worth living without icons
<ChrisH> Does anyone know how to use the own portrait directly in the wiki? I didn't found that documented anywhere.
<WW> No, I didn't add any icons.  Just converting it to ReST and getting rid of errors was a chore.
<WW> But hey, it's a wiki.  Just Fix It (tm).
<plovs> ChrisH, no, you can link it back to your homepage, but that's all
<plovs> ChrisH, name-linking doesn't work either yet
<plovs> in the changes page i mean
<ChrisH> So I would still put the graphics up somewhere else. Okay.
* sivang suggests writing to the mailing list in order to approve WW's new faq for official site
<plovs> you can link it (using ReST) with .. image:: IconSambaShares
<plovs> sivang, good idea, do it
<plovs> and then preplace IconSambaShares with the link to your head
<ChrisH> Have to check that out.
* plovs needs a hackergotchi
<plovs> ChrisH, http://docutils.sourceforge.net/docs/ref/rst/directives.html#images
<ChrisH> Thanks for the link. ReST can be tricky. :)
<sivang> WW : what's your real name for sake of list email ? :)
<WW> sivang: Warren Weckesser
<sivang> WW: thanks. also have you already incorporated the main site
<sivang> site's issues into your new wiki?
<sivang> this is what I am talking about : http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/faqfolder_view/
<WW> sivang: I'm not sure what you mean?
<sivang> I mean, were you intending to have your FAQ as the wiki FAQ, or a main support FAQ ?
<WW> sivang: It isn't "my" FAQ.  i just converted the existing wiki page FrequentlyAskedQuestions to ReST, so it could have a table of contents. 
<sivang> oh ok :) sorry about the misunderstanding.
<WW> sivang: I expect the policy would stay the same... someone from Ubuntu could grab whatever they like from the wiki faq and move it to the main site when they find something they like.
<plovs> sivang, i still do not understand why we should have two faqs
<sivang> plovs : me neither.
<plovs> sivang, i think we can do that ourselves actually (move it)
<sivang> Ok, I am going to release a post to the list, saying we want WW's
<sivang> faq as the official one.
<sivang> if I don't get any canonical response,
<sivang> I am going to move it there.
<plovs> sivang, WW, good idea! what do you think about this:
<sivang> the current one, is *ahhem*  sh*t ?
<plovs> sivang, agreed
<sivang> oopst
<sivang> this is documented on ChrisH logs...
<sivang> :)
* ChrisH looks forward to canonical read it :)
<plovs> ;)
<WW> sivang: The only problem with the current one is that the TableOfContents macro no longer works.
<sivang> I hope nobody notices that ...
<WW> sivang: If that macro worked, I would never have done the conversion.
<sivang> ChrisH : could you remove this form the log? :-)
<plovs> moving the faq to the official one, putting to the wiki: StuffToBePutInTheOfficialWiki
<ChrisH> No problem if you want to have some lines removed. Just remember to send your name and expiry date, too. And btw, I don't take American Express any more.
<sivang> but siriously, let's take a quick look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/faqfolder_view/
<sivang> ChrisH : hahaha
<sivang> No, I stand behind what I just said.
<sivang> :)
<WW> sivang: Although I do agree that the current Ubuntu FAQ need to be reorganized.
<sivang> does anybody think a linux distro FAQ should likke like?
<WW> It has just two categories, "Ubuntu" and "Support", which seem meaningless.
<sivang> and i *really* don't think it is anyway comparable to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewFAQTest
<sivang> with all do respect.
<sivang> Oppinions people? flame? :)
<plovs> a faq should be short Frequently does not mean every single possible question
<sivang> that's right plovs,
<sivang> but do you think some new people can be benefited from using http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/faqfolder_view/ as a start point?
<plovs> off course *we* have to figure out how to do it right
<sivang> I have a hunch they won't..
<plovs> sivang, i have never seen it referred to in #ubuntu or the list
<sivang> plovs : you mean nobody even noticed it ? It's linked from Ubuntu's main apge
<sivang> page
<WW> sivang: I agree.  A new user asks "How do I get Java to work?" , not "What are the unsupported formats and tools?"
<plovs> but if we would incorperate WW's FAQ with this faq and link it to the wiki for missing stuff, so it would be one thing then it would be ok
<sivang> he doesn't even KNOW what those puzzled words like "restcited format" mean in the context of Ubuntu
<plovs> sivang, correct
<sivang> I think it's doing a great diservice for peopole just wanting to make *something* work.
<plovs> sivang, *I* never read it, btw until just now
<sivang> I didn't want to say anything about it,
<plovs> i do not like the support section, it is redundant and out-dated
<sivang> as I was sure someone from canonical would take care of making it something more similar to the wiki's form of FAQs..
<sivang> but now as I look it,
<sivang> it's considered as nothing IMHO.
<plovs> i think it is considered to be doc-team's job
<plovs> meaning yours ;)
<sivang> no problem. I will ad this to my TODO :)
<sivang> so we would incorporate WW's with what already there, with links to the wiki where applicable ?
<plovs> i would like that, ask for consensus on the list, though
<plovs> and if WW agrees, off course
<sivang> yes ofcourse,
<sivang> nothing gets done on the doc team with the consensus thingy :)
<plovs> what about a page: StuffToBePutInTheOfficialWiki ?
<sivang> plovs : yes, thank you. without all sorts of notes everywhere I get lost :)
<sivang> OfficialSite
<plovs> and then no faq in the wiki, only one faq
<sivang> :)
<sivang> yes!!!
<plovs> WW, would you like to be the FAQ-man?
<sivang> WW : yes, since you've done such a good work, would you?
<WW> plovs: But if you simply change the name of StuffToBePutInTheOfficialWiki to FrequentlyAskedQuestions, you end up with the current policy. :)  Which is fine with me.
<plovs> well, i think we should move all the good stuff to thr 'real' faq-page and empty this one
<WW> Ah, well, if you guys are able to edit the real FAQ, then go for it.
<plovs> not only *we*, we are thinking about *you*
<plovs> WW, that is
<plovs> on the official FAQ
<sivang> yes, that would be way cool
<plovs> WW, the offical FAQ-representative
<WW> plovs: Sorry, I don't think I can be FAQ-man.  I don't have the time or ambition for that kind of committment.
<plovs> ah, ok
<sivang> plovs : and also adopt the wiki's devide and conquer approahc
<ChrisH> Didn't follow it. Are you guys planning to do the FAQ in Docbook or Wiki? The latter is probably hard to handle.
<plovs> ChrisH, can we put docbook in the site?
<plovs> if we can then docbook would be my #1 choice
<plovs> but we need something that shows up on the web as well
<ChrisH> I don't know if we needed to just link the XHTML output from Docbook or if it can produce Wiki language.
<ChrisH> Is there a way to upload HTML directly instead of using the wiki?
<plovs> ChrisH, yes
<ChrisH> Wiki is collaborative and nice. But handling large FAQs with TOCs, links and footnotes can become ugly.
<WW> Is docbook easy to use?  One point of the wiki FAQ is that anyone can add to it.
<plovs> WW, the official faq should be 'locked down' the StuffToBePut.. is open, wiki style
<ChrisH> WW: That would not work with Docbook. So it depends on we want it ugly and collaborative or neat and restrictive.
<ChrisH> plovs: I agree. A FaqProposedUpdates wiki page would still be needed and would serve as the input for the FAQ man.
<plovs> ChrisH, do you have some test docbook file?
<sivang> ChrisH : The online official FAQ can be edited with an WYSIWYG editor, very slick
<WW> ChrisH: Main ubuntu site: neat and restrictive.  Wiki FAQ: easy but occasionally messy.  (IMHO)
<sivang> ChrisH : for the offline FAQ manual, ofcourse I support DocBook
<ChrisH> plovs: I'm currently writing the Docbook tutorial I plan to have online in about an hour. That would perhaps give all here a better idea of how it looks.
<plovs> ChrisH, is it in docbook?
<ChrisH> plovs: the tutorial itself is not in docbook because I intend to wiki it.
* sivang awaits the arrival of ChrisH's DocBook tutorial
<ChrisH> sivang: Would be nice to have the FAQ be easily added to Gnome Help and shipped.
<plovs> the reason i asked is, you can use html on the site
* ChrisH carefully offers to maintain a docbook faq
<plovs> if we will do the official documentation in docbook then i would love to have a faq about it
<ChrisH> plovs: sounds a little recursive ;)
<plovs> you do perl, you must like that kind of stuff
<plovs> ;)
<sivang> ChrisH : yes ofcourse. I'm planning of taking all the online docs and pacakge them for yelp
<ChrisH> plovs: well... :)
<ChrisH> sivang: wiki2yelp?
<sivang> ChrisH : huh?
<WW> I'll split hairs here... I think you might need a docbook HowTo.  After all, how frequently are people asking about using docbook (not counting those crazy doc-team members :)
<sivang> ChrisH : you mean from docutlils ?
<plovs> ChrisH, docbook2yelp
<ChrisH> sivang: How do you plan to do that?
<ChrisH> sivang: Just a wild guess. I didn't even know html2yelp exists. :)
<ChrisH> plovs: Is there such a thing?
<plovs> yes, i *think* so let me find it, brb
<sivang> ChrisH : well, hopefully to be assisted by the ReST --> XML script
<sivang> then,
<plovs> i need beagle
<ChrisH> That's the whole trouble with Wikis. It's hard to convert it into anything but HTML.
<plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HowDoc
<plovs> Yelp reads DocBook. OMF files.
<sivang> go manual over stuff the didn't go well,
<sivang> and then packages it for scrollkeeper
<plovs> ChrisH, a question about docbook:
<plovs> i can do docbook2html, right?
<sivang> ChrisH : if you use ReST on the wiki, it could be *realtively* easy to convert it to xml
<plovs> sivang, but there is (not yet) an xml2docbook converter
<sivang> so what were all the talking about the easy way to convert from the wiki to docbook ?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I need tomboy,
<sivang> anybody know how I can find tseng's repo?
<plovs> :) in the faq?
<plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreakMyUbuntu/view?searchterm=tseng
<ChrisH> plovs: yes, docbook to html is trivial. Look at my tutorials at http://workaround.org
<plovs> tomboy is really nice, i use it every day
<plovs> ok, and we can post html on the site
<plovs> that means that we should use docbook for bg things and then convert it and upload it
<ChrisH> IMHO it would be nice to have Wiki for most pages ("who is in the doc team", "welcome to ubuntu" and "restricted formats") but use DocBook on larger articles that are potentially needed to be converted.
<plovs> and those things can then be used with yelp
<ChrisH> plovs: seconded
<plovs> cool
<plovs> sivang, find it?
<sivang> not yet,
<plovs> ChrisH, i intend to study docbook today (my wife is out of town, i have free time)
<sivang> searching...
<plovs> sivang, https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BreakMyUbuntu
<plovs> ChrisH, what do you use to write docbook, emacs?
<sivang> emacs is great at docbook
<sivang> but I think he's using VI :)
<ChrisH> plovs: There is a reasonably nice plugin for XML in the vim.
<plovs> nice, i use vim
<ChrisH> plovs: You may even want to take a look at conglomerate.
<plovs> ChrisH, conglomerate crashed on me
* plovs installs conglomerate again
<plovs> ChrisH, article, book or set?
<ChrisH> plovs: article
<sivang> Darn, am in the middle of hoary upgrade
<sivang> pkg file is locked
<sivang> plovs : found it , thanks.
<ChrisH> Let me put up the first part of the Wiki entry already. Looks like it could prove helpful already.
<sivang> ChrisH : wiki entry of what? :)
<WW> ChrisH: Where are you putting it?
<WW> ChrisH: wait, nevermind...
<ChrisH> sivang: DocBook
<plovs> ChrisH, that would be nice
<sivang> ChrisH : oh, it's finished ?
<ChrisH> sivang: Nearly. The first part would allow everyone here to understand the abbreviations and get a "hello world" document compiled.
<plovs> i'll write a doc, and publish it to the wiki, see if it's as good as they say it is ;)
<sivang> plovs : about what?
<plovs> as a test, probably about something important
<plovs> about icons, i think
* sivang LOLs
<sivang> ChrisH : I would also appriciate a tutorial for doing docbook in VIM, using "reasonably nice plugin for XML in the vim."
<sivang> :)
<sivang> if it's not already how you're tutorial is put , as a vim guy
<ChrisH> sivang: No problem. :) already here in draft form
<ChrisH> Can anybody tell me how to use something like <pre>...</pre> in ReST?
<ChrisH> Ah... literal block I guess. "::"
<sivang> plovs is our rest expert
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I have yet to do a single doc in it,
<sivang> I might as well start with DocBook altogether
* ChrisH proudly presents http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook
<ChrisH> Anyone reading it? :)
<WW> ChrisH: Looks like a nice start.  For those of us too lazy to install everything right away, is it possible to add a link to the HTML version of you Hello World example?
<sivang> looks very nice
<ChrisH> WW: Sure. Where shall I put it?
<ChrisH> sivang: tnx
<WW> ChrisH: Can you make 'test.html' a link right there in the page?
<ChrisH> WW: To another wiki page?
<WW> ChrisH: I don't know.  Is it possible to upload the html file to the wiki?
<WW> I haven't tried uploading a complete html file to the wiki... don't know if you can do that.  Anybody?
<sivang> hoary is crawling into my system.....
<ChrisH> WW: I have put it on workaround.org - who cares
<sivang> WW : there's an option when you edit main site pages
<WW> ChrisH: Thanks.  I'll be using your page when I start experimenting with DocBook for a project of mine.
<WW> Time to go...  but who knows, maybe I'll be lurking...  :)
<ChrisH> WW: DocBook has own tags for generating FAQs. Should I provide an example for out internal use?
<ChrisH> *our
<sivang> arggh
<ChrisH> sivang: okay, okay, I won't, I promise!
<sivang> hoary started to break things for me, I'm headed to a reboot :)
<WW> ChrisH: That would be interesting to see.
<pl0vs> ok, back online
<sivang> that wasn't intented for you ChrisH :)
<WW> Later, y'all.
<ChrisH> sivang: I know. :)
<ChrisH> WW: l8r
<pl0vs> see ya WW
<sivang> I arrgheed at hoary breaking my mozilla-firefox
<sivang> C'ya WW
<pl0vs> ChrisH, nice to see that the log now has autoscroll as well. Super!
<ChrisH> pl0vs: for the lazy of us :)
<pl0vs> sivang, you are going to the conference?
<sivang> I wish, I am not sure yet for the travel expanses if I can handle them,
<sivang> but I am checking possibilities.
<ChrisH> Which conference is it?
<pl0vs> well, if you go say hi from the doc-team 
<sivang> ofcourse!
<sivang> I would represent us
<sivang> there.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, you can escape wiki names with ! like  LaTeX
<ChrisH> pl0vs: so they don't become links?
<pl0vs> yes
<ChrisH> pl0vs: ic
<pl0vs> ChrisH, it is easier if commands (xslt etc) are in a box as well, beginning with "bash:~$ " BeagleInstallHowto has nice layout
<pl0vs> easier to copy/paste
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Okay... I will just finish it. (A dozen more lines.) Then I'll clean it up.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Your original text is still there (commented out) in case you want it included.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, nono, yours is much better (despite the fact that it does not have *any* icons whatsover)
<sivang> ChrisH : there is going to be a hoary conference in spain on december
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i tried it, i'm inpressed
<sivang> ChrisH : It would be 2 weeks of hacking, talks etc
<pl0vs> now i'll copy it to thw wiki
<pl0vs> sivang, sounds really nice
<ChrisH> sivang: I didn't know there was an Ubuntu conference. :)
<sivang> what are you working on now fellas ?
<sivang> ChrisH : all canonical employees are going to be there, together with a bunch of interested folks and related
<pl0vs> ChrisH, it's on the frontpage of ubuntulinux and in the wiki in Conference
<ChrisH> sivang: Two weeks? That's a long time. Is there so much to discuss?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, it's in spain, it's warm, has beaches...
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I know spain well. But in December it will hardly be that warm. Northern hemisphere. :)
<sivang> ChrisH : I am not sure, but I'm sure mako would have better answers about this, just write to him.
<ChrisH> sivang: Not that much on the Agenda, yet.
<pl0vs> ChrisH,  still 20+ in the south, atm
<pl0vs> btw checkout: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml
<sivang> he said on the conference page that he would wlecome any questions etc.
<pl0vs> i think the ubuntu guys just want to meet, they might never have met before
<ChrisH> sivang: I can surely not attend. Both work and family won't allow that. I was very surprised that last year my boss paid the travel for a coworker and me to the LinuxTag.
<sivang> ChrisH : what company do you work for ?
<ChrisH> sivang: www.otto.com / www.otto.de
<pl0vs> really? my mum buys there
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I have been to the CCCongress for five years until 1999. But with the time there was less hacking (in the productive meaning) but more pr0n leeching. :(
<pl0vs> ChrisH,  at otto or linuxtag ?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I'm in the network security team there. Usually it's fun. But out management is laying off 25% of all employees. :(
<ChrisH> pl0vs: LinuxTag. :)
<pl0vs> management, firing people and wanting more work done in the same memo!
<pl0vs> bah!
<pl0vs> on a more positive note, docbook works great!
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Currently no one is doing serious work there. Everybody is waiting who will get fired. We will know that in 03/2005. Gnarr.
<pl0vs> i put the html output in the wiki, and it renders ok
<sivang> pl0vs : have you followed ChrisH new tutorial?
* sivang also wants to know what is all the fun about :)
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Cool. And with the stylesheet it looks decent. :)
<pl0vs> sivang, yes, test.html: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml , renders fine
<pl0vs> which means we could write real docs in docbook and then use xslt and put it in the site
<pl0vs> ChrisH, can you add a links section? with the docbook site etc
<ChrisH> pl0vs: just that people needed to know that the source is docbook so they would not start changing the html code
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Yes.
<ChrisH> At first I found that DocBook/XML was a bad joke. Mostly because most of the programs I got recommended did not work at all. Where couldn't there just be a "do this and that" and a few pointers?
<pl0vs> we would put that stuff not in the wiki but in the support section
<ChrisH> pl0vs: (excuse my ignorance) support section?
<ChrisH> Great advantage of DocBook: we could have it checked in and out in CVS or SVN because it's plain text.
<pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support the 'official' documentation
<pl0vs> hornbeck is setting up svn/cvs for us (doc-team)
<pl0vs> Fedora uses it as well, they have graet looking docs
<pl0vs> with one style-sheet it all looks the same, really good
* pl0vs dreams about having icons all over the documentation ...
<ChrisH> Who has permissions to edit the support page? Only canonical?
<pl0vs> doc-team as well, meaning we do
<ChrisH> Perhaps one day I qualify for edit access, too. No hurry. :)
<pl0vs> you already have edit-access
<pl0vs> everybody has
<ChrisH> pl0vs: not for the support area
<pl0vs> it's just not common knowledge
<sivang> you have
<sivang> yes, everybody has
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> Do you see an "Edit" button at https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support ? Or do I need to use the "secret edit link"?
<pl0vs> go to documentation/howto's
<sivang> you need to create an account
<sivang> and then log in
<ChrisH> There I get an edit link. Just not for the parent pages it seems.
<pl0vs> no only admin can edit those
<sivang> after you logged in,
<ChrisH> canonical probably does not want a kid to screw the main support page.
<sivang> sec, checking
<sivang> I seem to be able to edit all support pages :)
<sivang> which page do you want to edit?
<sivang> Tell me what you want to edit and I will add it, ChrisH
<ChrisH> Nothing concrete. Just looking for a place to insert WW's Docbookified FAQ later.
<sivang> strange.
<sivang> I could edit those last night
<sivang> it seems locked now
<sivang> my "edit" bar is gone!!!
* sivang cries
<sivang> maybe someone saw how I referenced the current official faq ? :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Thanks a lot, sivang. You screwed for all of us! ;)
<sivang> ahh, found it
<sivang> it was all my human error
<pl0vs> :)
<sivang> :)
<sivang> this is how to do it
<sivang> :
<sivang> from https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/
<sivang> click on the specific square you're interested in,
<sivang> then you can edit it
<sivang> you can even add a new item to it
* pl0vs is smiling stupidly at his creation, tags work! <emphasis>important</emphasis>
* sivang joines pl0vs in the joyness of creation and has sympathy for such emotions
<pl0vs> ChrisH, and it works great with vim as well
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Did you install the xmledit plugin?
* sivang wants some of the DocBook fun in VIM!! 
<pl0vs> ChrisH, yes
<pl0vs> ChrisH, would a page like: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/BitTorrent be possible with docbook?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Why not? What is special about it?
<pl0vs> code, looks like code, a note is a note etc?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Look at http://workaround.org/articles/ispmail-sarge/
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I used my own style sheet. But basically there are notes (even different ones: warnings, important, notices) and terminal input.
<pl0vs> i read that one already ;) this is nice stuff indeed
<pl0vs> they have good looking stuff: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/
<ChrisH> I'm currently putting together this extra page: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference
<pl0vs> they also use docbook i noticed
<pl0vs> ChrisH, nice
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Yes
<ChrisH> pl0vs: And it fits nicely into the rest of my workaround.org pages
<ChrisH> pl0vs: So it does not necessarily need to look as ugly as the debian documentation. :P
<pl0vs> that is what i was wondering about, redhat looks great but is not high quality, debian the other way around
<pl0vs> i would like to be a bit of both
<pl0vs> No, the other bit!
<ChrisH> Documentation is fine. But ugly documentation is not funny to read.
<sivang> ChrisH : it looks again, superb
<sivang> I wanna do DocBook also, waiting for my mentor to finish up with his first student :)
* ChrisH bows before the kind audience
<pl0vs> ChrisH, will you explain the meaning of the tags somewhere? or is there a good doc somewhere?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference
<pl0vs> eg keywordset
<ChrisH> pl0vs: incomplete though. I'll include links to the "real" docs
<pl0vs> reading http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference atm
<ChrisH> This is the real link: http://www.docbook.org/tdg/en/html/
<pl0vs> understand everything except keywordset
<ChrisH> pl0vs: why?
<pl0vs> what is it used for?
<pl0vs> keywordset
<ChrisH> pl0vs: In HTML the keywords in the header will be generated from that.
<pl0vs> ok
<pl0vs> btw you have a space too many before all the lines in the example in http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference
<pl0vs> it doesn't parse, until you remove the space
<ChrisH> pl0vs: haven't saved for a while :)
<pl0vs> ok
<pl0vs> sivang, where you working on the debian documentation or only horbeck?
<sivang> pl0vs : hornbeck and the other new guy, I just suggested we should try and put in shape already shipping docs
<sivang> and give back to debian on colliding areas
<ChrisH> I'm done with http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBookReference - does it look reasonable to you?
<pl0vs> looks nice
<pl0vs> i reloaded the page already
<pl0vs> i am still missing notes, definitions
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Notes are like <important>...
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I'll add them.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, see http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/documentation-guide/s1-xml-admon.html
<pl0vs> or can we just use that?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: done... what else?
<sivang> ChrisH : which pages did you want to go on the front support page ? new xml howto and ?
<pl0vs> maybe better like this:
<pl0vs> <note><title>Note</title><para>Body of text goes here.</para></note>
<pl0vs> ?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: done :)
<ChrisH> sivang: uh?
<pl0vs> i can't reload this fast!
<sivang> ChrisH : wanted to link from "latest" howtos to your new docbook one
<pl0vs> niiice!
<ChrisH> I start to get a hang on ReST markup. :)
<sivang> nice page , I'm stunned
<ChrisH> I would write more but I have no idea of dragons really. :)
<pl0vs> now we need a list of stuff they want to be done for yelp
<sivang> pl0vs : we need to first see if the already shipping stuff is current, and make a new start page for the first yelp doc that is presented when you fire it up
<ChrisH> pl0vs: to convert docbook to yelp?
<sivang> yelp is using docbook,
<sivang> just with some custom XSLT
<ChrisH> natively?
<sivang> yes
<ChrisH> ah, ok
<sivang> :)
* ChrisH is preparing a DocBook FAQ test page
<pl0vs> yelp uses docbook imo
<sivang> you can just check out some gnom
<sivang> docs sources
<sivang> for example, the controversial gnome2-user-guide
<sivang> :)
<pl0vs> sivang,  how, what from where?
<pl0vs> using cvs?
<sivang> pl0vs : also,
<pl0vs> howto?
<sivang> and you can just look it in your system - although that would be the 2.6 docs afaik
<sivang> lemme see where is the scrollkeeper conf files..
<sivang> or where are the actual docbook file for this manual.
<sivang> /usr/share/gnome/help/user-guide/C/user-guide.xml
<sivang> I am not sure if XSLT is the right word for what it uses,
<sivang> it's standard DocBOok,
<sivang> but yelp has it's own way of rendering stuff
<sivang> XSLT defines the way the resulting page looks?
<ChrisH> There is probably an XSLT to transform the DocBook/XML into yelp format.
<ChrisH> Same procedure as with html
<sivang> XSLT defines in which images/ rendering the resulting page should use?
<sivang> for example, if a "note" should use once icon in standard docbook, and another on yelp's format?
<ChrisH> XML + XSLT => output format
<ChrisH> You can toggle whether icons are used or just text.
<ChrisH> http://www.sagehill.net/docbookxsl/Icons.html#d0e4990
<ChrisH> this is a docbook FAQ: http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.html
<ChrisH> feedback?
<ChrisH> (Still needs some nice stylesheet of course. Just plain HTML.)
<sivang> nice
<sivang> we should use the main site's style sheet
<pl0vs> looks good, what does the docbook source look like?
<sivang> ChrisH, anyway I'm starting with your docbook tutorial, does it say there how to use vim for docbook?
<ChrisH> sivang: yup
<sivang> k, great
<ChrisH> pl0vs: see workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.xml
<ChrisH> pl0vs: By the way... the xmledit plugin has nice features. Enter "<para>>" in insert mode. :)
<pl0vs> ChrisH, i don't think so...
<ChrisH> pl0vs: ?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, nice para>>
<pl0vs> ChrisH, it gives text only
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Use the source, Luke. :)
<pl0vs> duh
<pl0vs> very nice,maybe this is a better solution for longer docs indeed
<ChrisH> pl0vs: especially the automatic generation of the question list with correct links... you had to do that all manually in the wiki
<pl0vs> yes, so we only need a good stylesheet then
<ChrisH> Should I continue converting the current FAQ?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: If you just import the HTML into the wiki? Doesn't it use the stylesheet by default?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Or how did you do it last hour?
<pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml does, but we should test it with question/answer and note etc
<ChrisH> pl0vs: would you upload the faq test page?
<pl0vs> working on it as we speak
<ChrisH> Very good, Sir.
<pl0vs> no, doesn't work
<pl0vs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml
<ChrisH> But it's plain HTML? What did you do differently?
<pl0vs> i'll put in the test again, and then the faq again
<ChrisH> Tricky... what would we do with FAQ entries that just point to other Wiki pages? That would not work in the Gnome Help.
<pl0vs> it does not work anymore ???
<ChrisH> strange
<ChrisH> I'm not that sure that having a heavily wiki-linked FAQ is a good thing to be put into Docbook. Opinions?
<pl0vs> it works... human error .... 
* pl0vs bows his head in shame
<pl0vs> why do the links not work?
<ChrisH> they do here
<pl0vs> ah, ok so the faq should be self-supportive for using it in gnome-help
<pl0vs> well, then we have to 1) put those pages in help as well or 2) remove the links eg answer in the faq
<pl0vs> btw it lokks like ... not so good https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookTestHtml
<ChrisH> Putting the whole wiki in the help? Hmmm. Don't like the idea.
<pl0vs> well, the linked pages, the top 10
<ChrisH> Perhaps we should find a consensus on where the FAQ will be. If it's just a link farm to other Wiki pages then it would make hardly any sense outside of the wiki.
<pl0vs> if it needs to be in gnome-help then that won't do...
<pl0vs> i'll write to the mailinglist
<ChrisH> good
<ChrisH> IMHO an FAQ should be self-contained without too many external links
<pl0vs> off=course wiki-links can be just external links, that would work: eg https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook
<ChrisH> I did it like that before. If that's what "people" want... okay.
<pl0vs> there will always be outside links like: "for more info on working with docbook see: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocBook"
<pl0vs> or does that look bad
<pl0vs> does it work in yelp btw? external links?
<ChrisH> Good question.
<ChrisH> As i said... I'd always try to make it self-contained.
<pl0vs> it does work
<pl0vs> it has an outside link to the gpl atm
<ChrisH> But is it what we want?
<pl0vs> maybe not, it kindoff defeats the whole purpose of putting it in yelp
<pl0vs> if you have outside links, you might just ass well use a web-browser
<pl0vs> for the whole thing
<ChrisH> ...and use the Wiki FAQ :)
<pl0vs> right... i'll put it in the question to the list
<ChrisH> k
<pl0vs> ok, sent
<pl0vs> there is something about writing yelp stuff in yelp: Writing ScrollKeeper OMF Files
<pl0vs> it looks like docbook, to my untrained eye
<pl0vs> ChrisH, are yo urunning ubuntu? atm
<ChrisH> pl0vs: not on this PC - but on the laptop
<pl0vs> i have this funny thing in yelp, in system - synaptic docs, they show up in spanish?
<ChrisH> oops?
<pl0vs> that's too bad since it looks like good documentation, better then we have in the wiki
<ChrisH> i'll check
<pl0vs> this yelp is quite nice!
<pl0vs> it even has the python tutorial
<ChrisH> my docs are in english
<ChrisH> (synaptic)
<pl0vs> then maybe it is because i am running remote X through knoppix etc
<pl0vs> you see how nice it looks in yelp, with icons and all for notes and warnings?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: and still docbook :)
<ChrisH> pl0vs: do you know if there is a wysiwyg editor for gnome help documents? I know there is an XSLT but I wonder how developers write their docs
<pl0vs> the redhat guys use (and advise to use) emacs
<sivang> ChrisH : they use emacs :)
<ChrisH> Eeek. I quit!
<pl0vs> sivang, do you know where the yelp "home-page" is? on my computer i mean, the first page yelp opens
<pl0vs> ChrisH, we can advise vim, for ubuntu
<pl0vs> what if we try to make yelp open on first boot, showing the ubuntu-faq, that would be a great help i think
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Isn't the link in the panel pointing to it?
<sivang> I think we would be better off letting the user choose when he wants "help!" :)
<sivang> This could create much annoyance in some larger, non newbie, already linux familiar audience of Ubuntu.
* sivang is back for some more work.
* ChrisH is slowly getting tired (unusually diligent today)
<sivang> what have you fine fellows doc team of me been working on my 1hr absence? more docbook stuff?
<pl0vs> but only on first bootup, like the kde config wizard
<pl0vs> not a good idea?
<pl0vs> sivang, only docbook here
<sivang> k
<sivang> ChrisH : I am sure we could use some wysiwyg editor and have it render yelp's XSLT on the fly , what do you say?
<sivang> (we need not stick to emacs as the gnome doc people)
<ChrisH> sivang: You want to quickly write an editor for yelp? Nice.
<ChrisH> sivang: Done already? ;)
<sivang> nono :)
<sivang> I thought we could just have some WYSIWYG xml editor use yelp's XSLT and render it for us as a gui editor..
<sivang> it isn't possible ?
<ChrisH> Wouldn't know how.
<sivang> anyway, back again to your DocBook howto
<sivang> do you think it would be easy to convert /wiki/StartingTheJourney to docbook? it
<sivang> plain MoinMoin markup
<pl0vs> ChrisH, if you make an alias between ChristophHaas and Christoph Haas then  your name becomes clickable
<ChrisH> sivang: trivial
<ChrisH> pl0vs: you mean in the signature? how?
<ChrisH> sivang: why not try it yourself after you have read the mini-tutorial?
<sivang> this is what I intend to do :)
<pl0vs> in your homepage: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ChristophHaas add an alias "Christoph Haas"
<ChrisH> sivang: I assume your document is quite complete...
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Hmmm. How would I set such an alias?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, press aliases?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I'm so dumb. :)
* sivang just looks at ChrisH list of maintained packages - cream brings back nice memories of some long ago IRC chat on #debian-mentors with Ben Armstrong and ChrisH himself..
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-18
<pl0vs> what is #debian-mentors?
<ChrisH> sivang: :)
<ChrisH> pl0vs: A channel for mentoring new debian package maintainers.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: Two fellow project guys and I started it after we set up mentors.debian.net two years ago.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: eim (Ivo Marino) and CHS (Christoph Siess)
<pl0vs> ah, so that's you as well, wow, i'm impressed
<sivang> ChrisH : was synregy in anyway related to the project apart from sponsering your packages?
<ChrisH> sivang: Nope.
<ChrisH> pl0vs: http://workaround.org/server.jpg
<pl0vs> ah, now i saw the pic full-size i can see the domainname on it :-)
<ChrisH> pl0vs: :)
<pl0vs> how fast is your uplink?
<pl0vs> no ups?
<sivang> me too
<ChrisH> 512kbps
<sivang> could you remind me what is the black machine for?
<ChrisH> sivang: my TV server ;)
<sivang> ah right
<sivang> I recalled now :)
<ChrisH> sivang: or do you mean the black pooping machine?
<sivang> the asus
<ChrisH> pl0vs: I bougt that old 19" mini-rack from a coworker and moved those two machines into old 19" industry covers :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Yes. :)
* sivang is listening to the amazing Scorpions in the background.
<sivang> yo WW !
<ChrisH> yo^2
<WW> Hey there
<pl0vs> WW, hi
<pl0vs> ChrisH, nice
<sivang> ChrisH : what machine are those? I mean the mentors.d.n and t.d.n ?
<sivang> SCSI / ide ?
<pl0vs> ChrisH, but no ups needed in germany, here we loose electricity about once a month
<WW> ChrisH: Quick question (maybe): Your DocBook example shows how to create an html file.  How would I change that to create a PDF file?
<ChrisH> sivang: Both 2 GHz Athlon. 512 MB RAM. IDE (m.d.n = 80 GB, t.w.o = 200 GB)
<sivang> wow
<ChrisH> WW: docbook-utils - Convert Docbook files to other formats (HTML, RTF, PS, man, PDF)
<ChrisH> WW: There is probably a stylesheet in that package.
<ChrisH> WW: Just refer to the PDF XSLT and it should spit out pdf.
<WW> ChrisH: Oh, yeah.  _Eventually_ I'll RTFM, but all the acronyms and standards are a bit overwhelming.
<ChrisH> WW: I've tried to keep them to a minimum. But it's confusing, yes.
<ChrisH> WW: did you read pl0vs posting on -doc?
<pl0vs> docbook2man, docbook2pdf, docbook2rtf even!
<WW> ChrisH: I don't mean _your_ docs... those are nice.  But I start following links about other stuff, I get lost pretty quick.
<ChrisH> WW: Have you ever worked with LaTeX?
<WW> ChrisH: Yes, lots.
<ChrisH> WW: You probably haven't changed the styles yourself. Same here. :)
<ChrisH> WW: Just use it. Tweak it by setting a few variables. That's it.
<ChrisH> WW: That XSLT is even more funky than XML alone.
<sivang> this is the general defenition , of a general language :)
* sivang stares at XSLTs confused also
<pl0vs> we should add how to disable timesync to the faq as well
<ChrisH> sivang: XSL is the language. XSLT is a transformation in that language that converts XML => sivangistic
<sivang> ChrisH : ah now I get it, finally.
<ChrisH> Interesting: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gdp/resources.html
<sivang> sure load much faster then ubuntulinux.org .. :)
* sivang is really bugged by the slowness ubuntu.com comes up
<ChrisH> That's not hard.
<ChrisH> Wiki is probably much more CPU-intensive than static pages.
<ChrisH> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gdp/templates.html
<sivang> ChrisH : yes, but moinmoin was about 50% faster
<ChrisH> This seems to be what we are looking for
<pl0vs> ChrisH, maybe you could add the gnome link to the docbook page?
<ChrisH> pl0vs: k
<sivang> this are XSLT templates ?
<ChrisH> sivang: No, XML. :)
<ChrisH> Looks like yelp is reading native docbook. So we would not need to convert anything.
<pl0vs> just add an ubuntu style-sheet
<pl0vs> do you guys know any radio stations that work with xmms?
<ChrisH> Okay, guys. It was a long day. Heading to bed. Sleep well (if some of you ever sleep).
<ChrisH> And don't talk behind my back. I read you! ;)
<pl0vs> sleep, i used to know such a word ...
<WW> See ya.
<pl0vs> ChrisH, good night!
<WW> About docbook2pdf... I saved Chris's example as example.xml, and tried running "docbook2pdf example.xml > example.pdf"
<WW> Should that work?
<sivang> pl0vs : I install Helix and use it to play this www.106vic.org
<sivang> ChrisH : night buddy!
<WW> I get this error:
<WW> jade:/usr/share/sgml/declaration/xml.dcl:31:27:W: characters in the document character set with numbers exceeding 65535 not supported
<WW> Hmmm. The man page for docbook2pdf (which is just a front end for jw) says it can't handle xml, only sgml.
<sivang> pl0vs : can you try and add ChrisH's docbook tutorial to the documentation section of the main website? I have ran into problems
<pl0vs> WW, but it still works
<pl0vs> sivang, ok, let me try
<WW> I can't seem to create a pdf file from Chris's "Hello world" example.
<WW> Should I not use encoding="UTF-8"?
<pl0vs> docbook2pdf test.xml gives me a pdf file, and you do need utf8
<WW> Do you get the "jade" error that I got?
<WW> Actually, I do get a pdf file, but xpdf reports and error when it tries to display it.
<sivang> pl0vs : any luck?
<pl0vs> well, i cannot add a howto but i can edit existing ones
<pl0vs> which is funny because some are mine, so i put them there to begin with
<sivang> which ones can you edit?
<pl0vs> Smart BootManager Howto
<sivang> argghh I wanted to add chris's tutorial there
<sivang> well, guess another mail to Lulu
<sivang> boy's that's stupid :) I can also edit each and every howto / tutorial there,
<sivang> but not add a new one :)
<pl0vs> right.
<pl0vs> so no new howto\s for now
<sivang> :(
<pl0vs> you guys into encrypted file-systems?
<WW> Nope.  Are you in a HowTo frenzy? :)
<pl0vs> yes
<pl0vs> ;)
<pl0vs> and icons
<WW> HowTo encrypt your icons...
<pl0vs> coool..
<WW> I still can't get the pdf output to work... Probably doing (or not doing) something stupid here.
<pl0vs> it's always like that with computers
<WW> Yeah, they are so picky about commas and semicolons and stuff.
<pl0vs> yeah, picky they are
<pl0vs> can you make html ?
<WW> I was able to make an html file using the command in Chris's notes (xsltproc), but if I use docbook2html, I get that same jade error.
<pl0vs> WW, does  xsltproc -o test.html /usr/share/xml/docbook/stylesheet/nwalsh/xhtml/docbook.xsl test.xml work?
<WW> Yes, that one works.
<pl0vs> docbook2html test.xml gives me an error message and index.html
<WW> What is the error message?
<pl0vs> jade:/usr/share/sgml/declaration/xml.dcl:31:27:W: characters in the document character set with numbers exceeding 65535 not supported
<WW> Looks familiar. :)
<pl0vs> you have no index.html in the directory where you ran docbook2html?
<sivang> I am calling it a night, fellas :)
<pl0vs> sivang, ok, see ya!
<sivang> G'night all, c'ya soon!
<sivang> nice docbook work went on today, thanks to ChrisH, pl0vs , everybody on the doc team 
<WW> See ya.
<WW> pl0vs: Yes, it did create an index.html.  
<pl0vs> ah!
<sivang> see ya WW
<pl0vs> can you check it?
<WW> I checked it with firefox. It has the same structure as the file created by the xsltproc command, but it numbers the section, and the font is bigger.
<pl0vs> but it is correct?
<pl0vs> that means it works
<WW> pl0vs: Yes, it looks correct.
<pl0vs> docbook2pdf test.xml what does that do, i get an erro but also test.pdf
<WW> I get the same jade error, and a pdf file.  However, xpdf is unable to read the pdf file.  It gives errors and shows a blank window.
<pl0vs> hmm, here i get an error but xpdf does read the file ok
<WW> Doh! Never mind. I was doing this: docbook2pdf test.xml > test.pdf
<WW> So I was trying to use stdout as the pdf file.
<pl0vs> :)
<pl0vs> so, now it works?
<WW> Yes, I now have a pdf output that looks correct.
<pl0vs> ok!
<WW> Now I have to learn the various ways of hacking stylesheets to get the output just the way I want it.  Oh boy.
<WW> I'm taking off.  See ya, pl0vs.  If I find any cool icons, I'll let you know. :)
<pl0vs> WW, ok, see ya, good night
<ftwig> Hi, anybody around?
<pl0vs> ftwig, hi
<ftwig> hi
<pl0vs> looking for help with writing ubuntu-docs?
<ftwig> the fromt page of the wiki has gone a bit teche - I did a alternative at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewFrontPage which was linked to from the front page but the link has been removed;(
<pl0vs> ah, it was you page
<ftwig> yes - it had agrement on the old wiki but I have not been able to incorporate stuff from new wiki
<ftwig> my view was the wiki should stand on its own and have the same philosify as newbie frendly as the rest of the project
<pl0vs> yes, well actually several  things from your page were used on the new page
<pl0vs> it was a bit from all kinds of pages together
<pl0vs> what do you think of the new page?
<pl0vs> FrontPage, that is
<ftwig> if I was a newbie I would run away ;) - apart from that fine
<pl0vs> :)
<pl0vs> what do you think is newbie unfriendly?
<ftwig> the getting started section was to get round this, and thats why it was at the top
<ftwig> also I had a nice contence section whitch was auto generated in moin but it cant be done in zwiki;(
<pl0vs> yes, still fighting with the admins on that one [[TableOfContents] ] 
<pl0vs> the canonical wanted alphabetical order
<ftwig> ?alph order
<pl0vs> and the real first page has getting ubuntu on it http://www.ubuntulinux.org
<pl0vs> Community, Documentation, Policies & Procedures etc
<ftwig> I also think the wili should be moin as thats a lot easier to learn.  Problem with havein RsTxt is people will use it and scare away people
<pl0vs> it is still possible to use moin, and yes i would have preferred just moin as well
<pl0vs> especially 1.3
<pl0vs> but having one site is easier for the admins
<ftwig> As I said I think the wiki should stand on its own - that way a total site can be developed
<pl0vs> the wiki is only used as a scratchpad, all finished docs will be taken out and moved in the support-area
<ftwig> are you saying we cant turn off RsTxt in the wiki section only
<ftwig> problem with moving stuff off the wiki is it makes it more difficult to develop in
<pl0vs> no, some writers prefer ReST over moin (i for one)
<pl0vs> the stuff that is moved will aso be put in yelp
<pl0vs> so it will be installed on the desktop
<pl0vs> we move it to docbook
<pl0vs> so people without network still have docs
<ftwig> but surly accessebility in terms of learning markup is of prime importance in wiki.  If some of it is in ReST it may scare off some people 
<ftwig> BTW the alpha order on the front page would REALLY suck.  The stuff new users need should be at top
<pl0vs> i have been looking at who actually uses the wiki to write, i think hjaving to register is a bigger hurdle the the markup
<pl0vs> then the markup
<ftwig> not if you use other wiki and know moin ;)
<pl0vs> we'll see, if moin support becomes better maybe we will remove ReST, until then we will have mixed 
<ftwig> OK - anyway must go to bed
<pl0vs> and about the frontpage, the order needs to be improved
<pl0vs> ok, thanks for dropping by!
<pl0vs> c ya!
<ftwig> what I would really love is someone to do a increasing res in X - I keep on doing installs and cant get above 1024;(
<ftwig> nite
<ChrisH> plovs: moin...
<plovs> hi!
<plovs> he do you know: how to make a service stop forever without installing it
<plovs> chmod -x?
<plovs> or update-rc.d
<plovs> or both?
<plovs> i am updating https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuBootupHowto, and i do not know if it is correct
<ChrisH> plovs: update-rc.d servicename remove
<ChrisH> plovs: see "man update-rc.d"
<plovs> ChrisH, yes, i did, but do they *stay* away? or do they get reinstalled
<plovs> sb on the m'list said so
<plovs> but what i wrote in the howto is what i do
<ChrisH> Reinstalled? You mean if the service gets registered in the rc2.d when you "apt-get --reinstall install ..."?
<plovs> when the service gets updaed i mean
<ChrisH> IMHO it will stay disabled.
<ChrisH> http://www.nl.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-opersys.html#s-sysvinit
<ChrisH> 9.3.2
<ChrisH> Though it's not 100% clear.
<plovs> ChrisH, thanks
<ChrisH> trickie: hi
<trickie> hello
<trickie> i posted earlier on the developers list asking where i can start to help out on ubuntu
<trickie> thought docs is a good start
<trickie> would i find things to do for documentation on bugzilla?
<plovs> trickie, not yet
<plovs> trickie, what are your interests?
<trickie> well i do quite a bit of web development... also mono and gtk
<trickie> i wouldn't mind learning abit about ubuntu as whole... like some of the processes involved with releasing a distro
<ChrisH> trickie: I'm not long in the project either. The biggest problem is that even if there are rules they are hardly documented.
<trickie> i also enjoy programming with python
<trickie> true
<trickie> i don't know much about debian so i gather that puts me behind in knowing a great deal about ubuntu
<ChrisH> trickie: My first feeling when I read the main page was "Ubuntu is maintained by a small number of hand-picked debian developers". Sounded a bit elitist. I wasn't sure if I wanted to contribute. But actually the structure are a hell better than what's partly happening in Debian.
<ChrisH> trickie: Unless you want to maintain your own packages (as they are still taken from Debian) you are probably free to contribute to every part of Ubuntu.
<trickie> so like the mailing lists, wiki that sort of thing?
<trickie> bug fixes etc?
<ChrisH> There is just one bug report in the bugzilla regarding documentation.
<plovs> for docs that are "open" you might check: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiToDo
<ChrisH> I guess most of what needs to be done will be discussed here.
<trickie> ok thanks
<plovs> ChrisH, we just gor the bugzilla entry, so we're not yet used to it
<ChrisH> ah
<trickie> well... time for bed... thanks for your help... i'll be around again!
<sivang> howdy all
<sivang> ChrisH , around?
<ChrisH> sivang: yes... in a minute
<sivang> ah no prob
<sivang> I see we've got ourselves a new channel op :)
<sivang> he's here all the time
* ChrisH is not an op
<ChrisH> sivang: back... my wife wanted to have footprints of our son in cement - what a mess
<sivang> wow! He's a real celeberity
<sivang> :)
<sivang> like movie starts in hollywoord
<ChrisH> Just that blowing up out kitchen with TNT wouldn't make a greater mess. :)
<sivang> hahaha
<sivang> well, you should call out the cleaning lady and have her fix the kitchen back
<sivang> :)
<sivang> ChrisH : are you still using sarge / sid ?
<ChrisH> sivang: yes, on my main pc
<sivang> I was wondering, I can't seem to  make sound work on my inspiron 8200 laptop,
<sivang> and Ubuntu , well made me little unable by means of configuration..:)
<sivang> do you remember how to set up sound using alsa in sarge?
<sivang> I am trying to use alsaconf,
<sivang> it appears to be detecting the hardware but it doesn't work 
<ChrisH> sivang: I didn't use alsaconf finally as it was too confusing.
<sivang> well yes,
<sivang> it's pretty much that way - you never know really what goes on
<sivang> so , you used manual modprobe ?
<ChrisH> sivang: In kernel 2.4 I use OSS and in 2.6 I switched to alsa. The kernel did it all.
<ChrisH> sivang: then I check "lspci" which modules I needed... modprobe... bingo
<sivang> problem is, I already tried many things using 'modconf' and I might be already having oss colliding with alsa
<sivang> darn..
<sivang> in 2.6, is /dev/dsp still used?
<ChrisH> sivang: I'd be curious how to make my Sid installation auto-detect the hardware just like ubuntu and the new sarge installer does.
<sivang> (I reckon GNOME is trying to find it )
<sivang> the new sarge installer does that?
<ChrisH> sivang: At least /dev/dsp enabled apps work in ubuntu and the artsd. (like xgalaga) I didn't get that to work in KDE.
<sivang> Well, I'm not much of a KDE user anymore, so I guess I don't care about it.
<ChrisH> sivang: Well... I installed hotplug and discover. But that didn't help it.
<sivang> ah right
<sivang> I should try those, although I think discover had alredy been installed.
<ChrisH> sivang: I'm currently trying the gnome 2.6 (as in Sid) but it has flaws... the file requester is making me mad for example.
<sivang> let's se
<ChrisH> I just wanted to add a "home" symbol to the panel that should open my home directory. worked with nautils after a while. Then I wanted to give it a decent icon - not a chance. I chose /usr/share/pixmaps but whenever I clicked on "Open" nothing happened because the file requester wanted to open a file - not a directory.
<ChrisH> And I even don't want to talk about "spatial views". The first thing I did was switching back to the old behavior.
<sivang> ok, hotplug already installed.
<ChrisH> I really like Gnome (over fvwm2 or fluxbox) but KDE is much more integrated.
<sivang> discover I just did
<sivang> teu
<sivang> true
<sivang> anyway, I'll go for a reboot hopefully all the redundent OSS modules would get off
<sivang> :)
<sivang> beb
<sivang> brb
<sivang> back
<smurfix> Anybody know how to embed WikiLinks into ReST documents?
<smurfix> (Specifically, links with slashes in them)
<ChrisH> smurfix: Try [Wiki/Link] 
<smurfix> Ah, it displays the brackets only as long as the page doesn't exist. Very clever ^w confusing, that.
<ChrisH> smurfix: :)
<ChrisH> God... is the Wiki sleeping? It takes ages to commit changes.
<ChrisH> plovs: I have added some content to the SSHHowto Wiki page. Like to review it?
<plovs> hi
<plovs> ChrisH yes, i'll look at it,thanks
<plovs> ChrisH, very nice
<ChrisH> plovs: Thanks. :) I just felt the page would miss something about the more funky features.
<plovs> ChrisH, ah, the power of wiki
<ChrisH> plovs: You wrote "work in progress". Is there anything you would miss on that page?
<plovs> ChrisH, i would like to add ssh-agent stuff to it
<ChrisH> plovs: what exactly?
<plovs> how to get ssh-agent to run on login, be asked for the password once and that's it
<ChrisH> Errr. Do you really miss it? Try scrolling down a little. ;)
<plovs> duh, i should not imagine i can read 5 windows in the same time, sorry
<ChrisH> Just wondering. :)
<plovs> then it's more or less finished
<plovs> just icons, then it's ok ;-)
<ChrisH> You are the icon man.
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-19
<ChrisH> Morning guys... <yawn>
<ChrisH> Oh, well, my son has cancelled my night after 5 hours. What a great start into a new week. :) Let's install Ubuntu on my work PC then. At least something useful to do.
<volvoguy> howdy all
<trickie> howdy
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> burroughs.freenode.net
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> burroughs.freenode.net
* ChrisH is out for lunch
<ChrisH> sivang: power outage?
<sivang> something like that :)
<sivang> yes
<sivang> I am in the uni's lib,
<sivang> power went down,
<sivang> machines went down,
<sivang> admin unavailable
<sivang> :)
<sivang> now it's back up and nobody;s knowns why
<sivang> oh well, till next time (tm) :)
<ChrisH> sivang: I'll be off for lunch in a minute. trickie and I would like to start with an experimental repository of docbook with an xhtml automaker. Read the post?
<sivang> I read your post,
<sivang> I wasn't sure who trickie is
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I tried to respond when power went off,
<sivang> one word for that would be
<sivang> "superb
<sivang> "
<sivang> :)
<sivang> I might be interested in the setting up hlep, or just bug you guys so I could learn some more server knowhow on the way
<ChrisH> sivang: Okay. Let's see if we all like it.
<ChrisH> sivang: hlep?
<sivang> if i can help on the server setup, amdin, config etc.
<sivang> *admin
<ChrisH> sivang: ah, ok :)
<ChrisH> sivang: I'd start with a simple SVN repository on mentors.debian.net and we all can learn how it would work. I'm currently only using SVN for my own projects.
<sivang> ChrisH : what about using arch?
<sivang> ChrisH : so later it would be easier to incorporate our repository with canonical's ?
<ChrisH> sivang: Haven't used arch yet. Haven't even heard of it before a few days ago.
<ChrisH> sivang: But of course i'm willing to learn.
<sivang> ChrisH : ok, I will see what can be found on Bazzar's site at canonical's
<sivang> as well as finishing my tutorial in docbook :)
* ChrisH will take a look at Arch after lunch
<sivang> Bon Appetit!
<plovs_work> hi guys
<sivang> hey plovs
<sivang> how you been?
<plovs_work> good, busy today
<sivang> in what? doc related?
<plovs_work> work
<plovs_work> sivang, how did your install go?
<plovs_work> have to make a reboot, brb
<sivang> plovs_work : install?
<sivang> ChrisH : here?
<ChrisH> sivang: yow... struggling with the damn Novell server
<sivang> ah
<sivang> ok, ttl then - I'm working on the main site's team page
<ChrisH> sivang: I'm listening. :)
<ChrisH> Cool. I have my name on the page. I'm famous! Yahoo! ;)
<sivang> haha
<sivang> :)
<sivang> still working in it..Would appriciate spellchecks and comments afterwards.
<ChrisH> sivang: My name is correct. Everything else is irrelevant. ;)
<sivang> yeah! ChrsH for world domination!
<sivang> mouuhaaa!
<ChrisH> Hmmm. It looks like Arch is only used for the dpkg repository for the maintainers. Other teams seem to use cvs or svn as they like. Strange.
<plovs_work> sivang, nice work, the team page
<ChrisH> hornbeck: How far did you get regarding the Bazaar repository? I'm starting to get confused what we will be using.
<plovs_work> an utter lack of icons is a little disquieting, but for the rest it's ok
<plovs_work> sivang, and maybe put the names in alphabetical order
<plovs_work> sivang, you can change your name to aaasivang if you want ;)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, hornbeck is asleep, he lives on the wrong site of the planet
<sivang> haha
<sivang> :)
* sivang used to think hornbeck's side is the right side of the planet
<sivang> I now know the europ rules :)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: WAKE UP!
<ChrisH> :)
<sivang> has anybody seen hornbeck's photo on his personal page?
<ChrisH> nope
<plovs_work> hahaha, now i have
<plovs_work> oeps, he might read the blog ;)
<plovs_work> log
<ChrisH> lol :)
<plovs_work> he looks just like my brother, though
<plovs_work> is it just me or are things a *lot* faster today?
<ChrisH> I also thought that.
<sivang> faster?
<sivang> on the wiki ?
<ChrisH> Yes. I saved the SSH Wiki page yesterday and it took a whole minute to save!
<mercurus> greetings
<ChrisH> Hi, mercurus 
<sivang> welcome mercurus.
<plovs_work> mercurus, hi
* plovs_work things we sound like the three stooges
* plovs_work can't spell
* sivang agrees
* sivang finds it funny how much new people get here, considering the new foastering page is not ready yet.
* ChrisH wonders if there is an auto-greet script for irssi
<mercurus> ChrisH: a multitude I would imagine ...
<mercurus> If I wanted to help out "documentally" where would I be most useful ?
<ChrisH> mercurus: Wouldn't be very personal though. :)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, i would like one as well, and then run it in #ubuntu, how long would it take to get kicked?
<ChrisH> mercurus: A cappuccino, please. Extra sugar. Thanks. ;)
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Approximately 2 seconds longer than one of the ops seeing that.
<mercurus> ChrisH: it would be easy to perlify ... regex for JOIN, and then extract the username from that string ... all inside a loop that prints out the username in a standard greeting ...
<plovs_work> mercurus, look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiToDo
<sivang> ah! a perl munk ?
<mercurus> sivang: I can conceptualise ... coding it is another thing entirely :)
<mercurus> I have dabbled ...
<sivang> mercurus : sounds like you're on the right track..
<plovs_work> ChrisH, sivang, i added pages that need editing on that page, if you run into something maybe you can also add it there
<plovs_work> mercurus, you any good at cron stuff?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: sure. Which?
<mercurus> unfortunately I've been training my mind not to deal with absolutes, and I never really mastered the regex
<mercurus> plovs_work: I've never used cron :(
<mercurus> I should learn though ...
<plovs_work> mercurus, then you'll love the cron page as soon as it is written
<plovs_work> ChrisH, any page, you think is unfinished
<plovs_work> ChrisH, that is anything except the ssh-page :)
<mercurus> jolly good ... I posted a HOWTO of sorts to the Forums ... is there someone allocated to the Multimedia HOWTO ?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Nah, the SSH page still lacks some flash applets. I'm on it. ;)
<hornbeck> morning
<sivang> morning fellow earthling
<hornbeck> how is everything this morning?
<sivang> Pretty fine , I guess.
<hornbeck> thats good
<sivang> nice to see your photo on the wiki
<hornbeck> you like that?
<hornbeck> I am one sexy guy
<mercurus> could I port the Multimedia HOWTO being developed on the unofficial forums across to the Wiki ?
<hornbeck> :-)
<sivang> Yes, in a wizard of ozz kind of way :) you have a soccer's bird
<sivang> beard
<sivang> darn
<sivang> my spelling sucks today
<hornbeck> never knew I had a soccer's bird :-p[
<sivang> haha
<sivang> how do you spell the word for a magician?
<hornbeck> mercurus: I don't see why not
<hornbeck> magician
<sivang> the one that starts with s
<sivang> sauccer
<mercurus> sorceror
<sivang> maybe?
<hornbeck> sorceror I think
<hornbeck> yust google it
<sivang> yes, dict says this is it
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> wish my dict talked
<sivang> do you have permanet pireced ears?or are thse just magnetic earings?
<sivang> maybe it can,
<hornbeck> I used to have 1/2 inch holes in my ears
<sivang> there a plantora of text to speech synthiziers around for linux
<hornbeck> that photo is about a year old
<sivang> there might need some work to be done to make it use it
<sivang> how's the book going?
<hornbeck> I did not work on it at all this weekend
<hornbeck> I just finished repairing a roof and fixing a water heater
<hornbeck> but today I am going to start compiling stuff from the wiki and see how much is needed to write from scratch
<sivang> oh that damn water heater..
<hornbeck> hornbeck.freeshell.org/blogger
<hornbeck> the whole weekend story is there
* sivang hates them. wished they could "just work"
<sivang> btw, it's nice having a face you're talking to, instead of just a nick
* sivang would shortly add his photo
<hornbeck> I would not know
<hornbeck> ok, than I will know who I am talking to
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> is ChrisH around?
<sivang> I think so
<sivang> we want to dobookize the FAQ, what do you think/
<sivang> ?
<hornbeck> I posted to the list saying I support it
<hornbeck> I am for docbook everything
<sivang> DocBook is so neat, I think we need to streamline all our authoring on it
<sivang> me too
<hornbeck> I hate that we are not working on offline docs
<hornbeck> that is why I started this book
<hornbeck> to give us some offline docs
<hornbeck> ChrisH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<sivang> well, I have already started working on my StartingTheJOurney , besides maintaining the wiki and working on the main documentation page.
<hornbeck> do you know if ChrisH has started this repository?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: errr. yes.
<hornbeck> hey
<sivang> well here he is
<sivang> :)
* ChrisH 's stomach couldn't cope with the lunch :(
<hornbeck> ChrisH: did you start the repository you talked about on the list
* hornbeck hopes not
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Not very much. :)
<hornbeck> ok
<sivang> We can use ChrisH's infrastructure for this,
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Have you worked on it? I ready what you wanted to do from the meeting. Hard nearly forgotten it. :)
<hornbeck> I bought a faster line, static ip's, new server, everything so we can set up repositories for the doc team
<sivang> as he has already quite some of it :)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I have 512 kbps, statis IPs, own DNS (forward and reverse), web server and repository already installed :)
<hornbeck> I just spent almost a grand to get this all started :-)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: And if we really need it I could put a server in the computer room at my fellow ISP if we needed 100 Mbps. :)
<hornbeck> mine is a 3M line
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Damn. You win. ;)
<sivang> hornbeck : wow, this must have caused a bit.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: What kind of repository is it?
<hornbeck> what might be nice is some mirroring
<sivang> we could start our own elite distro :)
<hornbeck> I have not set anything up yet
<hornbeck> but if you would like to help me :-)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Although we probably won't need much bandwidth for it, will we?
* sivang is in for arch setup and learning as we go
<sivang> not at the start,
<sivang> but as soon as freshmeat talks about us
<sivang> we would :)
<hornbeck> honestly, I have no experiance setting up repositories, but I did this so the doc team would have something and so I could host my own blog server
<hornbeck> I would like to be able to host unofficial Ubuntu packages also
<ChrisH> sivang: I have read a bit about arch. And I wonder why they are not using subversion. Seems like Arch was started the same time subversion was launched. Just that Subversion looks more powerful and comprehensive to me. But, heck...
<mercurus> hmm ... can I do bulletted lists in Moin, and if so, how ?
<sivang> I am fine with people saying subversion is better,
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Which repository software do you intend to use?
<hornbeck> ChrisH: would you be willing to help me set this all up
<hornbeck> Subversion
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Sure.
<sivang> should we use arch just to make canonical able to merge our repo easily?
<hornbeck> actually, we decided in the meeting to try out SVN and if it did not work to try others
<sivang> what do people think?
<hornbeck> the topic of Bazzar was raised
<hornbeck> but the dev has not got back to me
<ChrisH> The package maintainers seem so use arch for the packages because there are tools for that. But there are tools for cvs and svn as well.
<hornbeck> I really like cvs
<hornbeck> but not many others do
<ChrisH> Bazzar is more a web forum with upload features than a repository to me. I think we would be better off with svn or arch.
<hornbeck> ok
<ChrisH> hornbeck: CVS has some flaws. I was used to it, too. But SVN isn't that different.
<sivang> ChrisH : but you just said svn looks more comprehensive then arch
<hornbeck> well I bought this stuff for it to be used by our community, and I hope it gets good use
<ChrisH> sivang: IMHO yes.
<plovs_work> hornbeck, goodmorning
<hornbeck> good morning plovs
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Got a few minutes to get it running?
<hornbeck> not all set up yet
<ChrisH> hornbeck: ok
<hornbeck> the line comes in today
<plovs_work> hornbeck, got a firewall already?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: 3 Mbps is pretty impressive
<hornbeck> the server is here
<hornbeck> plovs yes firewall in place
<sivang> which brand / hardware? (hardware savy)
<plovs_work> hornbeck, what did you use, in the end?
<sivang> photo?
<hornbeck> plovs monowall
<hornbeck> ChrisH, that was the fastest I could get before T1
<hornbeck> If this takes to much bandwidth, I will upgrade to T1
<plovs_work> any of you guys use a windows desktop?
<mercurus> *cough* Can I do bulletted lists in Moin, and if so, how ?
<hornbeck> plovs: my wife does
<hornbeck> so I have one next to me
<mercurus> I'm new to Wikis generally
<plovs_work> mercurus, <space>*<space>twertwrter
<mercurus> thank you :)
<plovs_work> i'll add it to http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto
<hornbeck> anyone tried out the Novell Desktop yet?
<plovs_work> hornbeck, is there something like tomboy for windows?
<hornbeck> plovs: i don't know
<hornbeck> I don't use windows but I was saying I have access to one if you needed me to
<ChrisH> hornbeck: btw: I hope you don't mind my proposal on -doc. I didn't mean to rush over you. It's not that important where the repository will be located.
<hornbeck> ChrisH: not at all, I just hope we can work together on this :-)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: We will.
<hornbeck> I would be all the willing to let you help in whatever way with this server
<hornbeck> "for the people, by the people"
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Do you have access to DNS zones? Just that we can give the server a name instead of an IP.
<hornbeck> ChrisH, I am not aware of any
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I could assign something like doc.workaround.org if you like.
<hornbeck> that would work
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Do you have an IP already?
<hornbeck> I am checking right now
<mercurus> is there a wiki editing WYSIWYG editor available for Ubuntu, if so, which repository, and what is it called ?
<hornbeck> ChrisH: I am calling to get my ip's
<ChrisH> hornbeck: You could use the same name both for SVN access (over SSH I propose) and for an Apache virtual host containing the auto-generated HTML output.
<hornbeck> yeah
<plovs_work> mercurus, no such thing, but you'll get the hang of it soon, btw look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RestrictedFormats for Multimedia stuff as well
<hornbeck> man it takes forever to get these people on the line
<ChrisH> mercurus: compared to DocBook the Wiki format is really easy ;)
<mercurus> plovs_work: I was just going to link to that one, but it can be amended \ incorporated appropriately
<plovs_work> mercurus, what you want
<mercurus> how do I link to anchors ? ie. I've done a contents list ... how do I link from the contents list to individual items ?
<mercurus> (within the same page)
<plovs_work> mercurus, you can ask the others here as well, but take a look at ReST as well, before you type a lot of stuff
<plovs_work> mercurus, moin only works for simple pages atm
<mercurus> ReST is the preferred Wiki-markup ?
<hornbeck> yes
<mercurus> and how do I do lists, and anchor links in ReST ?
<plovs_work> mercurus you can copy a template from http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto (in moin or ReST), but i prefer ReST
<plovs_work> anchor links: you make some sentence, and link to it like: `you make some sentence`_
<mercurus> plovs_work: aye, i've got that page open ... but I'm struggling to nest bulletted lists
<plovs_work> i'll put it in, then reload the page brb
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Which ISP is that? AOL?
<hornbeck> the telephone company
<ChrisH> hornbeck: AT&T?
<hornbeck> sbc
<ChrisH> hornbeck: uh huh
<hornbeck> I am on hold right now
<hornbeck> :-)
<plovs_work> mercurus, ok, reload http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto
<ChrisH> ... please hold the line ... we will connect you as soon as possible ... the next free supporter will deal with you ...
<hornbeck> I have someone now
<plovs_work> mercurus, let me know if the examples in http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto are any good and what  can be done to improve the page
<sivang> main site is slow...
<sivang> saving is  a pain
<plovs_work> did you guys see the "Reliable file systems"-thread, would be nice to have a page about file-systems
<plovs_work> or would it end up like vim-emacs?
<plovs_work> added it to: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/WikiToDo
<mercurus> plovs_work: thank you :) I found the ReST quick reference ... but that's a good start :)
<plovs_work> mercurus, look at the ReST page as well
<mercurus> I am ... I might post a preliminary outline and get some comments
<mercurus> the absence of closing tags is making my life interesting
<sivang> hey, I happen to like closing tags very much :)
<mercurus> sivang: likewise, that's the issue ... there aren't any ... are there ?
<mercurus> hmm ...
<mercurus> System Message: ERROR/3 (<string>, line 50)
<mercurus> Unexpected indentation.
<mercurus> oops :p
<plovs_work> mercurus, there *should* be
<mercurus> plovs_work: how/where ?
<sivang> in rest? I don't know. in docbook on ther other hand..
<sivang> :)
<plovs_work> mercurus what page are you working on
<plovs_work> ChrisH, did you see http://www.koders.com ?
<mercurus> I've just saved it ... its https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/MultimediaHOWTO
<asw> sivang: hey! (sorry about the six hour delay.) 
<mercurus> what have I done wrong ..?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: funky :)
<plovs_work> mercurus, can i edit it?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, cool he?
<mercurus> plovs_work: sure, just show me what I did wrong ...
<plovs_work> mercurus, ok
<sivang> asw : that's cool
<sivang> :P)
<plovs_work> mercurus, check it out, you just needed a bunch of empty lines
<plovs_work> mercurus, now it's ok
<hornbeck> can someone try to ping a ip
<plovs_work> sure
<hornbeck> 69.15.172.145
<hornbeck> hold on
<hornbeck> 69.155.172.145
<hornbeck> there you go
<plovs_work> hornbeck, nor pinging, nor nmapping
<hornbeck> thats what I though
<hornbeck> I have to make a new router
<hornbeck> crap
* plovs_work changed his head: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/AlexanderPoslavsky
<plovs_work> hornbeck, why a new router, just add a route in monowall
<mercurus> plovs_work: so ... what did I do wrong ?
<hornbeck> plovs: nice
<hornbeck> how did you do the whole hackergotchi thing
<plovs_work> mercurus, you need an empty line after ============ and * something
<plovs_work> hornbeck, gimp
<asw> sivang: hi all.  Things are a little crazy for me but I'm following the doc team's progress as best I can and will try to attend (part) of the Dec. community meeting in Barcelona.  I'll definitely put up a page highlighting the parts of Ubuntu that are especially attractive for scientists.   
<plovs_work> hornbeck, cut out my head, added shadow, resized, done
<ChrisH> hornbeck: ok
<plovs_work> hornbeck, the colors are not very good but wel...
<plovs_work> mercurus, ok?
<hornbeck> anyone know any good router distro's?
<plovs_work> hornbeck, monowall
<ChrisH> hornbeck: http://www.dnsstuff.com/tools/lookup.ch?name=doc.workaround.org&type=A
<plovs_work> ;)
<hornbeck> plovs: does monowall work as a router?
<plovs_work> yes
<plovs_work> if you tell it to
<plovs_work> politely
<ChrisH> hornbeck: yes. Works great. Have it running in a subsidiary here.
<hornbeck> I guess I will have to look into that right now
<ChrisH> hornbeck: cool. sbc has entered your name in the whois information of the network range. :)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: sounds like they know what they are doing
<hornbeck> thats good
<hornbeck> now I just have to get a router up and running to get the ip's to come to me :-)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Having static IPs is really fun. There are dozens of service that are fun insecuring the network with. :)
<hornbeck> well this is going to be another fun learning curve
<hornbeck> I love figuring things out
<plovs_work> hornbeck, i suppose youneed http://www.m0n0.ch/wall/docbook/firewall-inbound-nat.html
<sivang> anybody, just added the doc team to the main team pages,
<sivang> comments, flame etc welcome
<sivang> :)
<plovs_work> sivang, icons, flash movies?
<hornbeck> plovs: yes that looks good
<sivang> hmm..
* sivang is for the minimalistic approach in webpages
<plovs_work> sivang, despite that shortcoming, i think it looks really good
<sivang> I was more referring to weather the content looks reasonable
<sivang> and not newbie too confusing.
<sivang> I took the "current work" and "how to help" and merged those to "I want to help!"
<plovs_work> You might find this mediums also useful in this regard > needs to be *these*
<plovs_work> media ?
<ChrisH> sivang: put portraits of each of us online. That will keep people from contacing us. :)
<plovs_work> maybe: you might find these links usefull: ????
<plovs_work> Documentatino Team Meetings , discussing future goal and planning, freenode IRC #ubuntu-meeting. typo in documentation
<sivang> do we have plovs_work in doc team? I don't know him at all...ANybody know who he is ? :)
<sivang> and if he's at work, how can he have complains at all?? :))
<hornbeck> well I am off to try and get this to work
<hornbeck> I will keep everyone updated
<plovs_work> sivang, :-)
<sivang> alex, those are noted - I will fix those, thanks for the input :)
<mercurus> plovs_work: cheers for that ... what eas causing the problem ? absence of spacing ?
<plovs_work> mercurus, look at the example http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto, you'll see lots of empty lines, they *have* to be there
<mercurus> bloody Python :p
<sivang> ok, I have to go now. Catch you all later people.
<plovs> aargh, i hosed my irssi config
<ChrisH> plovs: Backup rules. :)
<ChrisH> sivang: elkhouse.de? :)
<sivang> yeah :)
<sivang> thanks to a very dear fellow of mine, wizard of automatic media and security policy in warty - Martin Pitt
<ChrisH> sivang: You probably don't need another ISP. You need a bag of emergency batteries.
<sivang> yes I do :)
<sivang> but having you and him now, I am more than satified with my internet presence by now :)
<sivang> must get my UPS soon
<ChrisH> sivang: If you bought a 2000 km power cable you could plug it into my garden wall socket.
<mercurus> this wiki language is SOOOO inefficient.
<ChrisH> mercurus: You should try DocBook. It will make you love wiki.
<mercurus> ChrisH: at least DocBook is local, and you don't have to wait for the page to reload each time
<ChrisH> That's right. The Wiki is darn slow at the moment.
<sivang> ChrisH : yes, I would :)
<ChrisH> Phew. I have converted KDE->Gnome, Tree->Spatial and root->sudo. And it works much better. :)
<sivang> Uh, seems like someone here likes Ubuntu
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> Nah, I hated. I'll leave the project. Good bye.
<sivang> :)
<sivang> please don't follow sparkes path..
<sivang> :)
<sivang> ChrisH : you still there?
<ChrisH> sivang: No, I left.
<sivang> now really 
<ChrisH> sivang: Seriously *not*. ;)
* sivang is a bit scared by ChrisH harsh sense of humor :)
* ChrisH will never follow the path to the dark side (tm)
<sivang> ever heared of Pink Floyd ?
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> sure
<sivang> and scorpions?
<ChrisH> sure^2
<sivang> they are half germen, half russian or something?
<sivang> I really like Klaus Nin...something , don't recall his last name
<ChrisH> Scorpions are german IIRC. Pink Floyd? No idea.
<sivang> pink are british
<mercurus> hmm ... found a bug already.
<sivang> Scorpions, on my music groups hall of fame. I play some 4 very nice hits of them on the guitar.
<sivang> mercurus : how,where,when ? :)
<sivang> any news since I left?
<sivang> Hi __randy, and welcome to the fine channel for Ubuntu Documentation Team.
<sivang> have you looked at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/documentation already? :)
<ChrisH> __randy__: Don't worry about sivang. He is just a welcome bot. :)
<sivang> hahaha
* sivang wishes he had the accuracy and the long term, non volaitle memory.
<sivang> of a bot.
<sivang> I guess __randy got scared. was I to direct?
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> Perhaps __randy__ is a bot?
<__randy__> ChrisH, no just looking over the teams page
<ChrisH> Okay... I'm going home and will continue with docbook.
<ChrisH> __randy__: ah, okay :)
<sivang> great ChrisH, lemme know what new when you have any
<__randy__> sivang, actually the link was quite helpfull the wiki isn't the easiest thing to navigate
<sivang> ah!
<sivang> music to my ears
<sivang> :)
<sivang> although I might have some spelling mistakes and other faults on that new team page
<__randy__> and I'm thinking about something I might be able to help with
<ChrisH> __randy__: Help is needed in fixing Wiki entries. Many pages are in bad shape and would need some going-over.
<__randy__> Do you know if there would be interest in and OpenAfs howto?
<ChrisH> No personal interest. But why not. If you know anything about it.
<sivang> OpenAfs?
<sivang> what is it?
<__randy__> Network File and Authentication system that my school uses
<__randy__> I setup it up on a Ubuntu machine as a test station in our computer lab
<sivang> this is something standard to the kernel? or is userspace utils?
<__randy__> It's a kernel module with some userspace utils
<__randy__> and it plugs into pam to
<sivang> nice
<sivang> you go ahead and have the howto done, I am sure many people could be using it, or just feeling lucky when they need it and find it ready :)
<__randy__> sivang,  I'll have it done and in docbook by the end of the week hopefully
<sivang> no rush, this is all voulenteering work, take you time :) I appriciate your help
<__randy__> sivang, it shouldn't be all that long I just have to make sure that I don't screw up any of the pam steps
<sivang> ofcourse. thank you
<ChrisH> Yes... another convert. :) A coworker asked me if I could help him install Debian on his PC. He has no experience with Linux and would like to get a start. Took my Ubuntu-CD and 15 minutes and now he's happy. :)
<sivang> great!
<ChrisH> Hmmm. If only NIS would work.
<lulu> hey guys - before i go - does anyone know how to get to a list of orphaned pages on the ZWIKI?
<ChrisH> lulu: no idea
<lulu> ChrisH: me neither! :o) perhaps we should add it to the wiki wish list!
<lulu> night all!
<ChrisH> lulu: nite
<plovs> ChrisH, you have any experience with NIS?
<ChrisH> plovs: yes...
<ChrisH> plovs: And I even just gained more experience.
<ChrisH> plovs: ...on how to completely screw my system. :)
<ChrisH> plovs: In intended to write a Wiki article about it. But it's tricky moving the sudo user to NIS.
<sivang> what do you need nis for?
<plovs> ChrisH, I have seen questions on the list and in #ubuntu about it so it is popular
<sivang> what are you up to plovs?
<ChrisH> sivang: I have two PCs (wife's and mine), the notebook (mine) and another notebook (from work) in my network. And the file server itself (torf). It's a mess maintaining my user accounts on all systems locally.
<sivang> (today, that is)
<plovs> ChrisH, Afterwards I would like a samba authentication thing as well (for Active Directory)
<ChrisH> plovs: yuk... AD?
<plovs> i really like it actually, it actually works (here)
<sivang> plovs : My freind from NYC is on brink of tryin logging into a domain controller, he now working on setting wireless
<plovs> besides the reguler MS clumsiness of the thing
<sivang> plovs : what do you mean in samba authentication?
<plovs> login into a domain controller from linux?
<plovs> using a samba box as DC
<plovs> for our second network
<sivang> ok, this I can test myself , if you like, but only tommorow
<plovs> no problem
* sivang needs to maintain some sort of a todo list, so he won't forget all the things he promises to do
<plovs> we just came home from guest, and leave agin, to hang out with friends, so no more comp for me
<plovs> sivang, tomboy!
<plovs> or put it on your homepage in the wiki
<plovs> ok, cu later!
<sivang> bye plovs
<sivang> ahhhheerrhrhrh wiki is dead slow..
<ChrisH> Indeed. But in the morning (here) it seem to be faster. Looks like the machine does not provide enough power.
<sivang> this is really a problem for our wiki working lovers
<ChrisH> Correct.
<sivang> hey __randy__, any reason your nick looks like a protected method in python?
<sivang> :)
<sivang> ChrisH : you still here?
<ChrisH> sivang: Jau.
<sivang> Jau ?
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> German for "Yop". :)
<ChrisH> Which in turn is geek for "Yes".
<sivang> There is a geek dialect of germen?
<ChrisH> Nah, not really. But "Jau" (pronounced "Yao") is a typical short word when picking up the phone.
<ChrisH> An alternative would be "Huh?" or "Friend or Wife?"
<sivang> Ah! That sounds familiar when I listened to my late grandmother, answering my mom's naggs - "Yao! Yao! Yao!"
<sivang> she spoke yeddish, germen, hungerian
<sivang> I just read it pronouncing the J
<ChrisH> You will probably not find it in an official dictionary.
<sivang> I guess not. Yeddish itself is somewhat a gibrish mixture of germen,bits of hebrew and some other I think
<ChrisH> Yes, I know. It's the more or less native language of the jews who lived in germany during that evil period 60 years ago.
<sivang> Just noticed your email about sudo on devel,
<sivang> you're not comfortable with the sudo concept in ubuntu? :)
<ChrisH> Who said that? :)
<ChrisH> Those power-outages start to become funny. :)
<plovs> hi
<ChrisH> plovs: Hi, Alex...
<plovs> so, NIS and sudo do not mix?
<ChrisH> Let's say: make sure you have other uid, gids and user names on the NIS than on the local system.
<ChrisH> I'll Wiki that. :)
<plovs> that would be nice, i would like to start using NIS or ldap but a howto would be nice
<ChrisH> I can just verify it for the client side actually. It's been a while I set it up on the server.
<ChrisH> The FAQ will probably become a huge thingy. :)
<plovs> need help?
<sivang> strange
<ChrisH> plovs: With the FAQ? Of course!
<ChrisH> sivang: Power out again? :)
<sivang> this time is was even more strange,
<sivang> my ssh connecting just hanged
<sivang> ah, irclog.workaround.org is just wonderful for this exact outages / terminal losses
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> I just pray my boss will not read it.
<sivang> hmm...why not?
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> I don't know. Perhaps he does not like to pay me for chatting the whole day?
<plovs> you want me to docbookify a part of the faq?
<ChrisH> plovs: I just have my PC working again and would like to prepare the DocBook document which will be even yelp compatible.
<ChrisH> plovs: Then we should start.
<ChrisH> plovs: Actually why not start now? :)
<ChrisH> plovs: Did you see my tiny template using qandasets?
<ChrisH> plovs: (qandaset = Q and A set)
<ChrisH> plovs: Just don't care about the headers. I'll grab that from the GDP docs.
<ChrisH> plovs: Do you have some part you would like to begin with?
<plovs> tiny template using qandasets ? where
<plovs> Just don't care about the headers, ok
<plovs> some part you would like to begin with, no
<ChrisH> plovs: http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.xml
<ChrisH> plovs: I have already worked on the first questions in the old FAQ.
<ChrisH> plovs: Not much really... more or less for testing.
<plovs> doesn't look like much (unless you want me to look at the source) ;-)
<ChrisH> plovs: Mostly the source as a template how questions and answered are typed in.
<plovs> yes, it's good
<plovs> ChrisH, you run debian right?
<ChrisH> plovs: no longer :)
<plovs> ChrisH, ah, ok
<ChrisH> plovs: My workstation has just been backed up and is now running Warty, too.
<plovs> ChrisH, and, you like it?
<ChrisH> plovs: No, it stinks. I hoped it would get better with every new installation on one of my four PCs (at work and home) but I still hate it. Let's see if it gets better on a fifth computer.
<ChrisH> plovs: ;)
* ChrisH has a weird sense of humor (admittedly)
<ChrisH> plovs: Nah, Ubuntu is completely great. At work the coworker I convinced to Ubuntu asked me how to install a printer.
<plovs> :-)
<ChrisH> plovs: I said "uh, well, never tried that. Is it cups? Or some evil magic? Or filters?"
<ChrisH> plovs: 10 seconds later (he has never used Linux before) he said: "forget it, it works, test page is right now coming out"
<plovs> cool
<ChrisH> plovs: Ubuntu is great in every detail. And there is hardly any component behaving mad or crashing. I even got used to the multiple window ("spatial") approach since Gnome 2.6.
<ChrisH> plovs: An editor wrote an article about the pros and cons of it versus the Windows "directory tree" view. He said he would never since have found so many files and directories he no longer used.
<ChrisH> plovs: IMHO that's right. I have tidied up half of my home directory since I use windows.
<plovs> you just have to change your thinking a bit
<ChrisH> plovs: windows != Windows (TM)
* plovs thinks ChrisH secretely loves XP
<ChrisH> plovs: Okay, okay, you got me. Actually I am an MCSE and Conical is just paying me to advertise Ubuntu in all channels. How did you find out?
<plovs> so what if we cut the faq in pieces
<plovs> ;)
<plovs> and divide the pieces
<ChrisH> plovs: divide and conquer?
<plovs> but you must check what i write
<plovs> yes
<ChrisH> plovs: Did you try around a little with docbook already?
<plovs> i just read some, most of the day i spend on MSsql
<plovs> bleeh
<ChrisH> eek
<plovs> i think your intro about covers all we need for now, if not i'll complain and we'l add it
<ChrisH> Actually docbook is quite easy IMHO. The greatest problem is to find the correct stylesheets, enter the right processing commands and understanding a few abbreviations.
<plovs> conglomerate opens your text nicely
<plovs> What text will we translate?
<plovs> did you compare the wiki in support and this one?
<ChrisH> Uh... you lost me. "wiki in support" versus "this one"?
<ChrisH> Translate? I thought we would start putting the old FAQ into DocBook form.
<plovs> duh, i am talking to my wife, studying and doing irc, sorry
<plovs> i meant the one in support and the one in the wiki
<ChrisH> As long as you don't call me "precious". :)
<plovs> if you don't call me gollum
<ChrisH> Awww... please? :)
<ChrisH> You probably mean newfaqtest versus the Support/Documentation/FAQ page.
<plovs> yes
<ChrisH> Many items on the NewFAQTest page are already solved (like the "mono" issue). Would like to docbook that first?
<plovs> sure
<plovs> is there a reason you write short sentences? or should i write complete sentences and let the formatting be done later?
<ChrisH> plovs: you mean the line breaks?
<plovs> yes
<ChrisH> plovs: It was the default setting in my vim. Makes it easier to jump around in the text IMHO than to go 2000 character to the right.
<plovs> looks funny with diffirent pagewidth, though
<plovs> question on the side, how do you pronounce router
<plovs> with a sound like you
<plovs> like a german u?
<plovs> or like sauerkraut?
<plovs> we had a discussion today here
<plovs> look at: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq?full=1
<plovs> they have a heading, then a question, then an answer
<ChrisH> More like "roota".
<ChrisH> Although english and american people seem to mix that as well.
<plovs> ok, thought so too :-)
<plovs> can you format it like in https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq?full=1 ,with the extra header above every question?
<ChrisH> plovs: Yes. I could swear this is configurable.
<plovs> what if i work on https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq?full=1 and put it in docbook?
<plovs> then we join them later
<ChrisH> Sure. Whatever you like.
<ChrisH> Seems to have a higher quality than the old faq wiki anyway.
<plovs> then we unite and clen them up
<plovs> clean
<plovs> can you label qanda-sets?
<nightlybuild> Hello doc team members
<plovs> nightlybuild, hi
<nightlybuild> I would like to start the french part of Ubuntu-doc
<nightlybuild> i mean translate the doc
<plovs> nice, welcome, we do not have any french docs yet
<ChrisH> nightlybuild: hi!
<ChrisH> plovs: No need to. Or is it? The TOC will reference those topic automatically.
<nightlybuild> i just want to know if it will be better start with dev doc or end user doc ?
<nightlybuild> Hi ChrisH
<plovs> nightlybuild, end user docs, the other docs change all the time and all the devs read english
<plovs> nightlybuild, they use english between themselves anyway
<plovs> nightlybuild, would be a waste of time
<ChrisH> nightlybuild: I second that. Ubuntu is way more confusing for end-users than for developers.
<plovs> nightlybuild, the faq is probably the most important doc to translate
<ChrisH> nightlybuild: That's why are intensively working on a good FAQ.
<plovs> nightlybuild, look at: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq?full=1 this is important stuff 
<nightlybuild> ok, so i will start a long-time collaborative translation with FAQ
<plovs> nightlybuild, and https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
<plovs> nightlybuild, remember that we are working on it so you might have to move stuff around later
<plovs> nightlybuild, but most of the text will stay
<plovs> ChrisH, wasn't there a mailinglist for translators?
<ChrisH> Hmm... wouldn't it be better if we first wrote the FAQ in english and start to translate it when it's half done?
<ChrisH> plovs: yes. ubuntu-translators@
<plovs> well, the items won't change much i think
<ChrisH> nightlybuild: Would you consider helping to tidy up the Wiki pages? We would really like your support in translating the FAQ. But it will probably take a day or two.
<plovs> off course the frontpage is also a good thing to translate
<ChrisH> plovs: Just think of the "mono" issue. You would translate the whole section it would just drop out.
<nightlybuild> ChrisH: i'm here for along time job, not just for one day or two ;-)
<ChrisH> At least three german writers are currently helping Canonical to translate such things as the main page.
<plovs> nightlybuild, ChrisH is right
<plovs> FrontPage ?
<plovs> we need translator docs
<ChrisH> That would probably just mean posting on ubuntu-translators or contacting lulu.
<ChrisH> plovs: Hmmm, yes, probably.
<plovs> nightlybuild, sending a mail to ubuntu-translators is a good idea
<nightlybuild> proposing my sevices for translating "official" doc ?
<nightlybuild> my services sorry ;-)
<plovs> it's all official here :-)
<nightlybuild> I've registred yet as ubuntu member ?
<ChrisH> plovs: I'd like to stay but I have to get up again in 7 hours. I'll get the template ready asap tomorrow.
<plovs> ChrisH, ok, i have to sleep as well, see ya!
<ChrisH> nite...
<ChrisH> nightlybuild: Please switch the light off, when you are done. :)
<nightlybuild> good night
<plovs> nightlybuild, it's all about the work you do
<nightlybuild> plovs: ?
<plovs> nightlybuild, you translate well, you're on the team
<plovs> that's how it goes
<nightlybuild> it couldn't be more simple ;-)
<plovs> yep it is
<nightlybuild> you are all working for canonical ,
<nightlybuild> ?
<plovs> i wish i was, but i am not
<plovs> on the docteam, only enrico does
<nightlybuild> may be one day ;-)
<plovs> who knows?
<plovs> so, the doc team thinks FAQ and FrontPage are important, but talk to the translator guys, they know better
<plovs> and we are currently working on the faq, it will change
<plovs> and ask the translator guys why they have no wiki-page
<plovs> and say hi, from the doc-guys
<plovs> and invite them to #ubuntu-doc
<plovs> more answers i don't have ;-)
<nightlybuild> i will post a request for french translation before going to bed ;-)
<nightlybuild> See you plovs...
<plovs> nightlybuild, see you next time!
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-20
<Nafallo> anyone needed for swedish translation?
<plovs> Nafallo, hi
<Nafallo> plovs: hi there :-)
<plovs> Nafallo, mail to ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com, that might help
<plovs> Nafallo, translation is not running smoothly yet
<Nafallo> oki
<plovs> Nafallo, no better to this list
<plovs> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-translators/
<plovs> couldn't find the link so fast
<Nafallo> hehe, I was just about to ask ;-)
<plovs> it's late...
<Nafallo> I'm already signed up for everything but -users ;-)
<plovs> users is *very* busy
<Nafallo> and -[locales]  ofcourse ;-)
<plovs> i read users, develop and doc
<Nafallo> hehe, I noticed ;-)
<plovs> so talk on the translation-list, they know more
<Nafallo> oki :-)
<Nafallo> they include translation of docs, right? :-)
<plovs> yes, the lot
<plovs> ok, got to sleep
<plovs> see ya!
<Nafallo> see ya
<George^Deka> hi all
<George^Deka> i am about to finally start writing my firefox howto - ill base it on 1.0 (out in 5 hours) - what should i use to write it moin or docbook ?
<plovs> George^Deka, hi!
<plovs> George^Deka, write it in ReST
<George^Deka> plovs: okay, i dont know ReST but looks simple enough (can docbook not export to ReST ?)
<plovs> George^Deka, not that I know, but in the wiki ReST is easier to change for others until the doc gets 'stable'
<plovs> George^Deka, see for example: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentHowto
<plovs> George^Deka, let me know if something is not clear in the example there, i'll update it
<George^Deka> okay cool, yeah seen that. 
<plovs> George^Deka, and the ReST page
<George^Deka> btw where should i put it while it is unstable
<plovs> George^Deka, just add draft to the top (like in the example)
<plovs> George^Deka, make it under HowTo
<George^Deka> thanks plovs
<plovs> George^Deka, anytime :-)
<GeorgeDeka> can someone tell me does firefox handle mailto links correctly (ie opening in evolution) - im not in ubuntu atm
<GeorgeDeka> can someone review the work i have done on the firefox howto please
<GeorgeDeka> it is only 10-20% done so far
<GeorgeDeka> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FirefoxHowTo
<GeorgeDeka> Thanks
<GeorgeDeka> email me george.deka+nospam@gmail.com (this was done because of the irclog)
<GeorgeDeka> cya all later
<nightlybuild> Hi folks !
<plovs_work> nightlybuild, hi!
<nightlybuild> Hi plovs, did you talk with Daf ?
<nightlybuild> about the translation wiki and his organisation ?
<daf> I don't believe we did
<nightlybuild> ok, so i start french translation in a txt format. We will see later for the wiki...
<plovs_work> hi daf!
<daf> hi
<plovs_work> so you are on the translation team i suppose?
<plovs_work> daf, ?
<daf> I organise the translation team
<plovs_work> ah, nice
<plovs_work> we have somebody coming in every once in a while asking what to translate, where should we send them?
<daf> tell them to message me on IRC (/msg daf) or send me an email (daf@canonical.com) or look at the wiki page https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TranslationTeam, or some combination of the three :)
<plovs_work> ok, thanks
<daf> no problem
<plovs_work> DafyddHarries, that's you?
<daf> I should talk with some doc people about making doc translation more organised
<daf> yes, that's me
<plovs_work> ok!
<plovs_work> yes, it would be nice to have a page of stuff to be translated, in order of importance or something
<plovs_work> like FrontPage, FAQ etc
<daf> has the doc team standardised on formats for documentation?
<plovs_work> in practice: newbies moin, core-team:ReST, support-docs: ReST and docbook
<daf> what's support-docs?
<plovs_work> all the docs that end up not under wiki, but under support
<daf> ah, I see
<daf> where do they live?
<plovs_work> those we would like to make available off-line eg in yelp
<plovs_work> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/support
<daf> ah, I see
<plovs_work> maybe you, as trans-team, can make a mail to the doc-team what you would like us to do, then we can workout some sort of a system
<daf> ok, I'm not too clear on what the best way to organise things is at the moment
<daf> the translation team is still rather nascent
<daf> and I'd like to see some work getting done before we standardise how it's done
<plovs_work> just like everything ;-)
<plovs_work> well, at least i know whom to bother now
<plovs_work> your im my tomboy notes now
<plovs_work> ok, got to go, work calls, see ya!
<daf> see you :)
<ChrisH> Morning, friends... :)
<ChrisH> lulu: morning, lulu
<lulu> ChrisH - Morning!
<nightlybuild> morning !
<lulu> Hey guys! volvoguy sent me this link on the Northern lights - check this gallery of pics - nature is truly amazing! http://www.spaceweather.com/aurora/gallery_01nov04.htm
<ChrisH> neat!
<nightlybuild> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/helpcenterfaq.2004-09-15.9566710821
<nightlybuild> Note that the wiki and the web site have different account information (sigh) so until we figure out how to sync them up, you'll need different accounts on them to edit them separately.
<nightlybuild> Is that always true
<nightlybuild> ?
<nightlybuild> I can edit the wiki from my website account, so...
<ChrisH> nightlybuild: No longer. The old Wiki had. But as most of the content on the web site is Wiki driven this is deprecated info.
<mercurus> nightlybuild: likewise ... possibly old information ?
<nightlybuild> Ok.
<lulu> nightlybuild: the ZWiki and website do not have a different authentication system. Are u thinking of the old wiki and the website?
<lulu> nightlybuild - I'll change that FAQ - thanks for pointing that out. 
<nightlybuild> thanks Lulu
<nightlybuild> so i don't translate this part anymore
<lulu> nightlybuild: just need to check a bug we had yesterday on the plone help centre (documentation) where people couldn't add things...
<lulu> otherwise anyone can change/edit  FAQs!
<lulu> nightlybuild: yup - leave that one for the moment :o)
<nightlybuild> lulu: i was talking about french translation, not original FAQ ;-)
<lulu> nightlybuild: gotcha!
<nightlybuild> hum, it seems that there is not yet a translation #chan for ubuntu, am i wrong ?
<lulu> we need to bring translators and doc pepes together - Daf and I are having a chat as to how we can dovetail the two. The more channels we have the harder it is for people to track them....
<lulu> we do have separate mailing lists tho'
<plovs> lulu, ListOfAllPages has been done
<lulu> plovs: hey wow!  
<lulu> can we rename the page to AllPages?
<lulu> and can we also do an Alphabetised list?
<lulu> and OrphanPages?
<lulu> and and and..... :o) ok - I'll add them to the wiki wish list!
<lulu> plovs: That rocks :o) thanks to u and Simon.
<ChrisH> lulu: If you don't mind me asking... how many people are currently working for Canonical? I just know wrong info from the press. And what are the limitations to non-Canonical staff? Is the package maintenance, selection and maintenance done by Canonical? I wondered if there are parts of the project where Canonical keeps out other people. The "Mark chose a few DDs and founded Ubuntu" sounds a little mysterious.
<ChrisH> lulu: It's probably a tightrope walk to sponsor a project and at the same time be neutral enough to not disturb the volunteer contributions.
<ChrisH> lulu: To be honest my first impression was: "Canonical pays the DDs. You are free to contribute." :)
<ChrisH> lulu: There are probably not such tight rules like in Debian currently. :)
<lulu> ChrisH: we have a little over 30 people on the Canonical staff that were brought on board to get the distro up and running, and we are working on a lot of other tools.
<lulu> the neutrality isn't difficult...seems to be going fine.
<ChrisH> Is the package maintenance part limited to Canonical? I could imagine that in the long run a good deal of disappointed DDs would join such a promising project as Ubuntu.
<lulu> ChrisH: we have a bounty system for people to be paid for work that needs to be done and can suggest bounties they'd like to do - see: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/bounties
<lulu> ChrisH: package maintenance is not limited to Canonical. http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/teams/
<ChrisH> lulu: So I assume that Mark hired the DDs for the "project ignition phase" but in the long run wants it's intended to be driven by volunteer contributions?
<ChrisH> s/wants//d
<lulu> ChrisH: absolutely - a community distro run by/for the community :o)
<lulu> but he has committed funding to help it get onto its feet.
<ChrisH> lulu: I see. Well, I've been contributing to Debian for the last two years. And I just wondered which parts of Ubuntu are free to the non-canonical public.
<ChrisH> lulu: There are some downsides to Debian that already drove developers away. So I think it's only natural to keep an eye on where people want to contribute. :)
<lulu> ChrisH: what are the downsides so we can be careful not to replicate?
<ChrisH> lulu: There is a nice document "lessons learned". I can dig out the link if you like. For me personally it's bureaucrocy, flame wars and a general flow of negative emotions.
<ChrisH> lulu: People who would be valuable assets just block important positions. The project leader does not do that much about it.
<ChrisH> lulu: Why would I want to be attacked personally by people that just want to distinguish.
<lulu> ChrisH: Please could you send me the link. I think it's very important we have a happy and fulfilled community who'd contributions are valued and people are not blocked, but also we need to have a clear direction and path.
<ChrisH> lulu: After a few personal comments (via email) from long-term DDs I learned: - don't try to change it, - don't subscribe to debian-devel (unless you have asbestos pants), - work privately with other developers you like (don't do it publicly)
<ChrisH> lulu: I have a bunch of emails in my folder reading "I don't dare to support your position publicly. But I think you are right. I have tried to improve things myself for a while but only can maintain a decent level of motivation by not going to deep into the project."
<ChrisH> lulu: http://liw.iki.fi/liw/texts/debian-lessons
<lulu> ChrisH: I'd encourage you to put all this in an email to m if you can make the time - lu@canonical.com and we can go from there - does that sound sane?
<lulu> thanks for the link :o)
<lulu> ChrisH: would this help explain free/non free: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/components/
<ChrisH> lulu: Sure.
<lulu> ChrisH: thank you!
<ChrisH> lulu: I know that I may sound potentially manic-depressive. But actually it's painful to voluntarily sacrifice spare time for such people.
<ChrisH> lulu: I was really impressed by the sounds of #ubuntu-devel compared to #debian-devel. (Stay there a while and read if you can take it.) People here are so friendly. And I hope that the project will keep up the high social quality.
<lulu> ChrisH: I'll pop in. Ubuntu is a great community already and we have a strict code of conduct. If we all pull together, and respect each other's values/differences and encourage each other in making Ubuntu a great distro as well as a fun place to hang out, Ubuntu will go a long way.
<lulu> ChrisH: I have to go and get some pressing work done. Thanks for the chat and do send me that email. :o)
<ChrisH> lulu: I will. Thanks for the answers.
<lulu> ChrisH: no worries - catch ya later.
<plovs_work> hi guys
<lulu> hiya!
<sivang> hi all
<sivang> this is me :)
<sivang> new people on the channel ha? nice
<plovs_work> sivang, hi
<sivang> who are the new fine ubuntu-doc channel hanging out people? :)
<plovs_work> sivang, all asleep i suppose
<plovs_work> sivang, many translation people start to pop up
<sivang> I see, nice to see we are getting momentum
<sivang> what about the italian front?
<sivang> I read some posts about it in list
<plovs_work> ChrisH, interisting read http://liw.iki.fi/liw/texts/debian-lessons
<plovs_work> sivang, no idea, translation stuff needs organisation
<lulu> hey guys - I also spoke to Daf today.... we need a process of prioritising work that needs translating. Is it best for translators to start with documentation that is in the Documentation area on the website so they know they are the polished docs and won't change much....
<lulu> thoughts?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I know. I posted that link here. :)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, yes, got it from you, food for thought
<ChrisH> plovs_work: indeed food... not entirely fat-free :)
<plovs> hi x4m
<sivang> lulu : agreed
<sivang> lulu : I would also don't mind having stuff which are already shipped with ubuntu, that need translation
<x4m> plovs, ki
<sivang> hey again all, hi ChrisH
<sivang> :)
<plovs> x4m, you into documentation?
<ChrisH> sivang: hiho
<sivang> ChrisH : Jau :) anything new on the svn/arch server ?
<ChrisH> sivang: Didn't hear anything from hornbeck.
<sivang> k
<plovs> ChrisH, probably sleeping
<plovs> ChrisH, hornbeck that is
<ChrisH> Work has been unexpectedly busy today. I was about to start with the FAQ DocBook template.
<plovs> ChrisH, same here, gona build a new vpn tomorrow
<plovs> ChrisH, i *love* thevim plugin though
<plovs> ChrisH, superfast
<ChrisH> plovs: Yeah, makes things quite easy. I also have this in my .vimrc which is even nicer:
<ChrisH> map! ,e <emphasis>
<ChrisH> map! ,p <para>>
<plovs> ? lots of spaces ?
<ChrisH> Huh?
<plovs> what?
<ChrisH> Didn't you see anything?
<plovs> i'm impatient
<plovs> drank too much coffee today
<ChrisH> (I mean the "map!"... lines.)
<plovs> got hiper
<ChrisH> When you enter ",e" in insert mode you would get an emphasis block.
<ChrisH> And my favorite: map <F3> v/>^Mx
<ChrisH> If you are at the beginning of an opening XML tag you can just press F3 and the tag gets cut to the buffer. Go the end of the section and press 'p' (=paste) and it will be appended after the current char.
<ChrisH> I use that to add tags after the text is already written. We'll need that a lot to add formatting to current documents. I tend to just copy/paste them from the web site.
<ChrisH> plovs: Have you already started a qandaset with the FAQ from the support page?
<plovs> ChrisH, yes, with a couple of questions
<ChrisH> plovs: Cool.
<plovs> ChrisH, what does F3 do?
<plovs> ok, typed before i read
<plovs> ChrisH, let's add a vim page to the docbook section
<plovs> btw, have you tried Alt<minus> tu speed up the speed of the wiki?
<plovs> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocbookVim
<ChrisH> Off to home... see you in an hour.
<plovs> ok
<lulu> hiya! BradB fixed the bug in Plone - we did a partial upgrade - Documentation section - you should be able to add FAQs, How TO's, Tutorials happily now :o)
<sivang> great!!!!
<lulu> let me know if there are any problems - thanks :o)
<ChrisH> lulu: You've got mail. ;)
<lulu> ChrisH: thanks Chris! :o)
<lulu> you're not going to be sitting in the cafe next door now are you?  ;) 
<ChrisH> lulu: Actually... no. :) I'm in Hamburg/Germany.
<lulu> :o)
<ChrisH> lulu: And last time I've been to London I caught a bad flu. :)
<lulu> ChrisH: lots of that going around at the mo ....
<lulu> I'm off - I'll get back to you tomorrow on your email Chris.
<lulu> night all :o)
<plovs> hi guys
<plovs> ChrisH, could you also log #ubuntu-meeting ?
<ChrisH> plovs: it is already... isn't it?
<plovs> ChrisH, forgive me it's the old age ...
* sivang LOLs
<ChrisH> sivang: Where would you put announcements? ratpoison is currently sending out translated versions of the X.Org transition announcement. But where would we put that on the web page? I thought we'd ask lulu tomorrow if she could place a link on the start page. What do you think?
<sivang> we should 2 sections for announcments,
<sivang> one would be used for technical stuff related ,
<sivang> the other general and administration.
<sivang> I think we can go ahead and create such on the main documetnation site as we now have access.
<ChrisH> sivang: I just have access to the documentation subsections. Is that what you mean?
<sivang> yes, wasn't this what lulu talked that she fixed up ?
<ChrisH> sivang: I was too busy to follow it exactly.
<sivang> btw, if anybody feels he might fix *anything* on the docteam page, just discuss on the list before if it's more then spelling mistake / cosmetic
<sivang> ChrisH : I recall (if I recall right :) she said this is now supposed to be fixed, so we would be able to maintain the documentation site no probe :)
<sivang> <lulu> hiya! BradB fixed the bug in Plone - we did a partial upgrade - Documentation section - you should be able to add FAQs, How TO's, Tutorials happily now :o)
<sivang> for you convinience :)
<ChrisH> Yeah, that's right so far. We can edit the *sub*categories.
<ChrisH> I just wonder where she intended to see the announcements? These (and translations) should IMHO be handled by the doc team, too.
<sivang> Btw, what announcments are we talking about? 0:-)
<ChrisH> sivang: I wonder how you could become the Senior Chief Master Project Editing Manager if you have no idea what's going on. Sheesh.
<sivang> other then X.org what more announcments we have?
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> Not much yet.
<sivang> what about new maintainers announcments?
<sivang> I've seen some familiar names on that today
<ChrisH> sivang: What about that on #-meeting? Did they talk about the maintainer candidates?
<plovs> ok, goodnight guys
<sivang> congretulations !!!
<sivang> for hornbeck!!
<hornbeck> yeah, congratulations for me
<sivang> and plovs also
<hornbeck> what is this for
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Don't listen to sivang. He forgot to take his green pills again.
<sivang> I'm pleased to announce that the following maintainer candidates have 
<sivang> been approved by the Ubuntu Tech Board, and confirmed by the Community 
<sivang> Council:
<sivang>  - Thibaut Varenet
<sivang>  - Alexander Poslavsky
<sivang>  - John Hornbeck
<sivang>  - Matthias Urlichs
<sivang> Congratulations to all of them.
<sivang> (mark)
<sivang> on ubuntu-devel@lists
<hornbeck> huh, well I am honored
* ChrisH bows before hornbeck
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Your honor, may I kindly ask if you got any further with the repository?
<hornbeck> I just got the server working about ten minutes ago
<hornbeck> I will be seeking your help in about a hour
<hornbeck> I have to run to a job real quick
<hornbeck> brb guys
<ChrisH> Uh, oh. :)
<WW> Hey folks
<ChrisH> sivang: Not to forget plovs has also been promoted.
* ChrisH get another beer
<WW> What's the latest word on editing the wiki FAQ?  
<WW> plovs: Hey, congratulations.
<WW> hornbeck: Congratulations to you, too.
<ChrisH> WW: I'm working on the template this very second.
<WW> ChrisH: That's for DocBook, right?
<ChrisH> WW: Yes, Sir.
<WW> ChrisH: How will that work on the wiki?
<WW> ChrisH: Will it be easy for Joe User to add his bit to the FAQ?
<ChrisH> WW: hornbeck is setting up a repository. With a little luck and scripting we can make every committment to the repository be automatically uploaded to the page (or at least put online on his server).
<WW> ChrisH: Hmmm... I'm not sure what that means!  Who does the "committment"?
<WW> Will it still work like the old system did, where anyone can contribute to the wiki FAQ, and then good entries are occasionally pulled into the main "official" FAQ?
<ChrisH> WW: Everybody who likes to contribute. I'm not sure about a consensus. But following the doc mailing list is sounds like a self-contained FAQ in DocBook format would make sense.
<ChrisH> WW: It could be included in Yelp and be put online in XHTML. So we need to include a lot of Wiki pages. That would mean a lot of work for everybody who is interested in that job.
<ChrisH> WW: Remembering remotely I think someone proposed a FaqProposedUpdates wiki page.
<WW> plovs suggested something like "StuffToBeUploadedToTheFAQ" (or something like that) during a discussion several days ago.
<WW> But that seems like you could just leave the wiki FAQ as "FrequentlyAskedQuestions", and the Doc team could take good entries from there and incorporate them into the official DocBook FAQ.
<hornbeck> WW: Thanks
<hornbeck> ChrisH: I have a ton of questions
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Uh oh. :)
<hornbeck> yeah :-)
<hornbeck> first question
<hornbeck> apache question
<hornbeck> how do I make my domain name show up instead of the ip when you go to it in a browser?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Set "ServerName" to something decent.
<sivang> docstash ! :)
<sivang> .hornbeck.org
<hornbeck> still comes up with the ip
<ChrisH> hornbeck: what do you try? doc.workaround.org?
<hornbeck> I have the domain, opensoftdesign.org
<cenerentola> hi there..
<cenerentola> is there someone who  i can talk with?
<ChrisH> cenerentola: Hi. Yes, sure.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Low on energy? :)
<hornbeck> that was odd
<hornbeck> everything just shut down
<cenerentola> mmm... drop of voltage... python missed a space.. and here it is
<hornbeck> you can try again ChrisH
<cenerentola> shhh... microso*t [copyright problems]  is listening for its new advert campain
<cenerentola> ChrisH: i was looking for Enrico Zini
<cenerentola> because the Italian Ubuntu Community would like to help with doc things
<ChrisH> cenerentola: Enrico is not always online here. Although the documentation team is mostly present here. lulu (from canonical) urged us to put a list of things to do online. Would you like to translate things? Or would you like to start improving the Wiki pages? Some information seems to be lost since the Wiki transition.
<cenerentola> and since ive got a stable internet connection i cant follow the thing through the ml
<cenerentola> do you mean "hacking" the wiki code? or just editing it?
<ChrisH> cenerentola: How does a stable isp connection prevent reading the mailing list? ;)
<ChrisH> cenerentola: Just editing the contents.
<cenerentola> no.. i cant use the laptop... this is what i mean for "stable"[sarge] 
<cenerentola> and they keep me seated from 8:30 am till 6:30 pm, and the internet lab closes at 6:00
<plovs> hi guys! just shortly before bed, congrets hornbeck!
<sivang> congretz plovs!!!!!!!!!!
<plovs> yeah!
<cenerentola> there's no way for me to connect to the internet.. it could seems odd since i study electronic engineering
<hornbeck> congrats plovs :-)
<plovs> cool, now we actually have to start movin'!
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> now I have to figure out the whole gpg key thing
<ChrisH> hornbeck: ...and other things as well. ;)
<cenerentola> congratulations..
<plovs> it sounded important
<hornbeck> ChrisH: I have way to much to figure out right now :-)
<plovs> how is it going with svn/cvs etc?
<hornbeck> we are working on just being able to see my server right now
<ChrisH> plovs: working on it... some firewall trouble currently.
<hornbeck> it is up and running though
<ChrisH> plovs: the faq template is 90% done
<plovs> ChrisH, super
<plovs> hornbeck, need a hand with monowall?
<plovs> what's the ip?
<hornbeck> its not monowall
<plovs> hornbeck, ah, that explains it ;-)
<hornbeck> yes it does :-)
<plovs> i was fooling around with all kind off firewall thingies until i was sick of it and settled for m'wall
<plovs> anyway what is the domain?
<hornbeck> opensoftdesign.org right now
<hornbeck> having problems with that also
<hornbeck> it shows up in browser
<hornbeck> so httpd is working
<ChrisH> hornbeck: but only for you
<ChrisH> hornbeck: iptables?
<hornbeck> you cannot see the site either?
<hornbeck> I need a outside connection
<ChrisH> hornbeck: nope
<plovs> dns works, but http does not
<hornbeck> try it now
<ChrisH> hornbeck: can't even ping it
<plovs> nope
<ChrisH> hornbeck: bras1-g9-0.okcyok.sbcglobal.net (151.164.23.137) is my last hop
<plovs> does your apacheserver have a static address? or is it inside the wall?
<plovs> hornbeck, ^
<plovs> well guys have fun, i need to get up in 6 hours, see ya tomorrow!
<ChrisH> plovs: get some sleep for me too, will you? :)
<hornbeck_> does someone have the ability to kick my old nick
<hornbeck_> is anyone here?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: yes
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+o ChrisH]  by ChanServ
* hornbeck was kicked off #ubuntu-doc by ChrisH (ChrisH)
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-o ChrisH]  by ChrisH
<ChrisH> hornbeck_: I hope I kicked the right one. :)
<hornbeck_> yes
<hornbeck_> can you see the server now?
<ChrisH> hornbeck_: :(
<hornbeck_> really
<hornbeck_> I am really not sure what is going on than
<ChrisH> hornbeck_: Is 151.164.23.137 your ISP?
<hornbeck_> that is the dns
<ChrisH> hornbeck_: in your network range?
<ChrisH> hornbeck_: Because that's the last hop I can reach.
* ChrisH would come over and help if it would not be 20.000 kilometers away
<hornbeck_> can you ping 69.155.172.150?
<hornbeck_> that is my router
<ChrisH> hornbeck_: :)
<hornbeck_> hmmm
<ChrisH> hornbeck_: So the hope after the DNS does not shop up. But the .150 does
<hornbeck_> that does not make since does it?
<ChrisH> hornbeck_: I don't know that much about your net. Is it sbc <-> router <-> firewall <-> web server?
<hornbeck_> sbc -> router/firewall -> server
<ChrisH> hornbeck_: So we can get the firewall but not the server behind it.
<ChrisH> hornbeck_: Did you enable routing on the firewall?
<hornbeck_> I am seeing if I can turn off the firewall
<ChrisH> Cool. The FAQ looks already great in yelp. :)
#ubuntu-doc 2004-11-21
<ChrisH> Who would usually hold the copyright of the FAQ? All authors (Gnome proposes that)? Or just "The Ubuntu Documentation Team"?
<sivang> Ubuntu Documentation Project
<sivang> maybe?
<ChrisH> According to the web site it's the "Documentation Team".
<sivang> ok, then.
<sivang> I have no idea what would be the better choise
<ChrisH> I just wondered who the copyright holder is.
<WW> ChrisH: Interesting question.  
<sivang> add 'All Authors' maybe like in gnome?
<ChrisH> The single authors like Gnome uses it following the GDP guidelines... or the whole team.
* ChrisH is not very familiar with the GFDL either :(
<WW> For comparison... Is the Linux kernel copyrighted?  Who holds that copyright?
<ChrisH> WW: Everybody knows that. SCO of course.
<WW> :)
<ChrisH> Everybody who is curious... http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.html is the HTML output. http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.xml is the DocBook'ed template. You may download it and run it through 'yelp'. Not completely done but works mostly.
<ChrisH> fg
<ChrisH> oops
<ChrisH> Hmmm. Yelp isn't very good in displaying qandasets.
<WW> ChrisH: Something's wrong.
<WW> You've listed plovs as a co-author, but there are no icons in the document.
<ChrisH> WW: lol
<ChrisH> WW: You scared me. :)
<WW> Talk about being scared...  I hate to think of the icon he finds for headless servers.
<ChrisH> That will at least keep him occupied. :)
* ChrisH wonders if we could provide the FAQ in HTML form
<ChrisH> Anyway... I'll get a quick nap. See you in my dreams. And if horbeck comes back in: I'll help him later (in about 8 hours if he is still awake then).
<sivang> hey there again, john
<hornbeck> hey
<sivang> how is the server going?
<hornbeck> boy this server is pissing me off
<hornbeck> i have got nothing else done
<sivang> yeah, I've heared
<hornbeck> now the isp is telling me that my ip's are not public
<sivang> well don't get too down because of it,
<hornbeck> even though they are supposed to be
<sivang> huh?
<sivang> then sue them
<sivang> :)
<hornbeck> what I would not give to be writting docs :-)
<hornbeck> are you running hoary yet?
<sivang> yes
<hornbeck> is it working ok?
<hornbeck> you still there?
<sivang> yes
<sivang> working pretty fine, what have you stumbled into?
<sivang> anyway, night all
<hornbeck> back already?
<hornbeck> hey George
<George^Deka> hi hornbeck 
<George^Deka> plovs: noticed in the logs you were after a windows desktop using one here now, i have not got ubuntu installed on this because of my slackness
<hornbeck> I don't remember why I needed one
<George^Deka> hornbeck: that was to plovs
<George^Deka> think he was after something like tomboy
<hornbeck> hehe, yeah I see that now
<George^Deka> im bored - should be studding for uni exam 2morrow
<hornbeck> I should be working on my server
<hornbeck> but I am watching tv with my 6 year old
<hornbeck> and updating the laptop to hoary
<George^Deka> well im still on dialup hell, so ill be with warty till the release probably, unless i download a nightly cd image, but not much point now i would imagine nothing much happened yet in the world of gnome and they are moving over to x.o soon, that may have a hiccup or 2
<George^Deka> so hows the book going
<hornbeck> I have had a ton of stuff this past week, so no progress really
<hornbeck> I am starting to work on the docbook markup though
<hornbeck> I am reading through ChrisH's docbook stuff right now
<hornbeck> than I will start putting the stylesheet together and start feeling in the blanks
<George^Deka> so first book i take it ?
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> is it noticable?
<George^Deka> reading docbook stuff now
<George^Deka> there is a good debian book that never got released - debianuniverse.org - if your going to be using a open doc style licence
<George^Deka> so you going to write it then hope you find a publisher
<hornbeck> yeah, I am hoping to get it published near the hoary release
<hornbeck> maybe alittle after so I can get all the updates in
<George^Deka> well if you use a cd image a few weeks before hoary then you know what you will be doing, then you may be able to release it at the same time as hoary
<George^Deka> i was thinking i would write a book, but then found out you already started i thought stuff it
<hornbeck> yeah
<hornbeck> if you would like to help with this one feel free
<hornbeck> the templete is online
<George^Deka> do you have an idea on chapters yet
<George^Deka> wheres the template
<hornbeck> I am going to have a arch or svn server up in the next couple days
<hornbeck> ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LearningUbuntuOutline
<George^Deka> yyep
<George^Deka> feel free to use my firefox how to as the using firefox page
<George^Deka> it is only about 20% done so far
<hornbeck> ok
<hornbeck> as you get more let me know
<hornbeck> I am working on the book right now
<hornbeck> ChrisH will help me with the svn server tomorrow
<hornbeck> than you can pull down the docbook if you want
<George^Deka> well that will be a while before i do that
<George^Deka> busy for next few weeks
<hornbeck> thats fine
<hornbeck> I will keep chugging along
<hornbeck> we got about five months :-)
<hornbeck> well I am going for a reboot, hoary just got done updating
<hornbeck> talk to you later
<George^Deka> okay cya\
<plovs> morning!
<hornbeck> morning
<plovs> hornbeck so how is the server today?
<WW> hey there
<plovs> WW, morning!
<hornbeck> don't know how it is working
<hornbeck> try it
<plovs> WW, i read the logs! no jokes about icons please!
<hornbeck> 69.155.172.150
<plovs> WW, ;-)
<WW> :)
<plovs> hornbeck, works!
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> try opensoftdesign.org
<plovs> hornbeck, also works
<hornbeck> weeeeeeeeeeee
<hornbeck> I cannot check because I am within the network
<hornbeck> your running linux right
<plovs> yes (among others)
<plovs> main desktop linux
<hornbeck> would you be willing to try the ssh access for me?
<plovs> sure!
<plovs> rm -rf / 
<hornbeck> haha, never mind
<hornbeck> :-p
<plovs> nah, been there done that (really,don't ask)
<hornbeck> haha, let me finish setting up your account
<WW> Hey, while you folks are getting the official FAQ set up with DocBook, can I replace the wiki FrequentlyAskedQuestions with NewFAQTest?
<hornbeck> I have not looked but maybe :-)
<plovs> WW, we'll wrap it up in a couple of days, then yes
<WW> I mean, for now, just rename NewFAQTest to become FrequentlyAskedQuestions.
<WW> It has the same content, just converted to reST.
<plovs_work> ok, back at work
<plovs_work> WW, in that case just move NewFAQTest to FrequentlyAskedQuestions and FrequentlyAskedQuestions to OldFaq (and link it on the page)
<ChrisH> Anyone awake already? :)
<plovs_work> yep!
<plovs_work> from five in the morning
<trickie> 7pm here
<plovs_work> after we redorated the bedroom yesterday i mixed up the clock and put it two hours off... duh
<ChrisH> 9 here
* ChrisH needs to reinstall - Hoary update failed
<plovs_work> ChrisH, aargh, how come?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: No idea really. I can't see if I have x.org. But that's not the problem.
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I run evolution-exchange. And every time I'm fetching mails from the exchange server the process grows up to 1 GB eating up all swap... and then dies.
<ChrisH> plovs_work: In hoary there is not yet an evolution-exchange package. So I needed to pin/hold. But that failed completely. :(
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Do you run hoary already
<ChrisH> plovs_work: ?
<plovs_work> no, no time to muck around atm
<trickie> i am upgrading my hoary install now
<plovs_work> how hard is it to upgrade, nned to document it?
<trickie> well i didn't really use warty very long before i upgraded, but it was seemless for me
<trickie> installed it on friday
<plovs_work> ok
<plovs_work> ChrisH, looks nice the faq-docbook
<plovs_work> ChrisH, what about <note>...</note> how would that format?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, and some of the fonts are too small
<plovs_work> ChrisH, can we have a faq without the preamble (or put the preamble at the end) ?
<trickie> plovs_work: where/how could i have a look at it (the faq)
<plovs_work> http://workaround.org/ubuntu/faq.html
<plovs_work> this is what we are working on
<plovs_work> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
<plovs_work> this is the origianl
<plovs_work> original
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I have just used one of the stylesheets of the web site. So the fonts are probably not correct yet.
* ChrisH is now back on Warty
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Have you tried it with yelp? Looks nice. :)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, how do I do that?
* plovs_work is playing with vpn's and just ordered 7 new network-cards
* plovs_work also runs firefox 1.0
* plovs_work is having a grand day
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Grab the xml file and run it with "yelp foobar.xml"
<plovs_work> duh, just did that, sorry i even asked
<ChrisH> plovs_work: np :)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, this is *really* neat
<plovs_work> ChrisH, wow!
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Shipping that with Gnome should be fine for end-users.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, icons work!!! in yelp, with <note> !!!
<ChrisH> Morning, lulu. :)
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Argh! Icons... ;)
<plovs_work> ChrisH, but seriously this needs to get into hoary, maybe even updated warty
<lulu> Morning Chris, Morning All :o)
<plovs_work> morning lulu
<lulu> :o)
<plovs_work> lulu, you know what yelp is?
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Indeed. Would you start with that XML file?
<lulu> plovs_work: afraid I don't....:o(
<plovs_work> ChrisH, yep, today
<plovs_work> lulu, it is the gnome help browser, you run ubuntu atm?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, but a little later, I do have some questions for you still (you being the local docbook-guru)
<plovs_work> lulu, it is in Applications > Help
<plovs_work> lulu, are there any plans to add ubuntu-branding to it? It just begs for it
<lulu> plovs_work: I'm on Apple Mac atm - but can have a look....ahh - ok - so it needs branding - is there a page in Hoary that is a Hoary wish list you can add it to?
<lulu> on the wiki?
<plovs_work> lulu, yes, let me find it
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Not a guru. :) I'm merely glad it worked so far.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, if we make the faq in docbook->html can I refer to a specific question, and can i make the previous link *not* break?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, there are already links to the wiki questions
<plovs_work> ChrisH, not wiki faq-questions
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I'm not sure if I get you. You want to create hyperlink to Wiki pages? Or do you want to link within the docbook-faq?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, link within the docbook-faq
<ChrisH> plovs_work: Yes, that's possible. See my DocBook wiki page. It should work with the <ulink url="... tag.
<plovs_work> lulu, maybe http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SupportedSeedProposals, i asked mdz but no answer yet
<lulu> plovs_work - likely that he is still asleep! He's very good at getting back to people so I'm sure he'll answer you when he's up. Send him an email.
<plovs_work> lulu, ok, i'll add it then, agreed?
<plovs_work> ChrisH, did you notice? is the wiki significantly faster today or is firefox 1.0 faster?
<plovs_work> lulu, thanks for your mail
<ChrisH> plovs_work: The wiki is always fast during this time (morning time here). Later in the day it's a pain.
<plovs_work> ChrisH, too bad, i was just hoping ...
<ChrisH> plovs_work: I already considered setting up a local wiki here and test the pages there before uploading.
<lulu> plovs_work: email - no worries
<plovs_work> ChrisH, its an apt-get away...
<lulu> plovs_work:re: yelp - if you think that's the right place!
<plovs_work> lulu, we'll fix things today and send you some screenshots tomorrow
* ChrisH wonders why yelp only shows one level of the TOC
<lulu> plovs_work - ok :o)
<sivang> hey everybody,
<sivang> what brings the day?
<ChrisH> sivang: work, work, work :)
<ChrisH> while ( ! $boss->satisfied() ) { work(harder); }
<ChrisH> sivang: Although the docbook xml stuff looks pretty nice already. There is just a quirk that yelp only creates a TOC for the highest level. So there is list of FAQs ins a category. In XHTML this looks good.
<sivang> wow, nice to hear that. :)
<sivang> then we could just use XHTML , if yelp eats it nicely.
<ChrisH> Let's see if future versions of yelp will handle that better (or at least customizable).
<sid77> hi
<ChrisH> Hi, sid77 
<lulu> Hiya sid77
<lulu> ChrisH: thanks for your email - I'd like to take a little time to respond to it ok?
<ChrisH> lulu: Sure.
<George^Deka> hi all
<ChrisH> hi, George^Deka 
<sid77> hi
<George^Deka> seems like the licencing of the docs is still an issue in the ML (even though thought we basically decided during meeting) - unfortunatly i have been missing some mail that i should have been reading - i have just sent my reply to the list any comments
<George^Deka> what free software guidlines does ubuntu go by DFSG or OSSF
<ChrisH> George^Deka: It has been discussed recently on ubuntu-doc@ whether the GFDL would be appropriate. And it was said that it has license problems of some kind. But I think there is not yet a consensus.
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Do you know the differences of those licenses to recommend a license scheme?
<ChrisH> George^Deka: btw: there is a mailman list archive in case you missed anything
<George^Deka> ChrisH: i know from what i have read on debian-legal based off the DWN
* ChrisH is bad at understanding licenses
<George^Deka> ChrisH: my post sheds more lite, finding the wiki page now
<ChrisH> George^Deka: found it
<George^Deka> GFDL DSFG non-free http://people.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/Position_Statement.xhtml
<ChrisH> Ah... my good old friend Manoj. :)
<George^Deka> ChrisH: manoj ?
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Manjos Srivastava. Got flamed by him badly once or twice. ;)
<George^Deka> from what i can see ubuntu follows the FSF guidlines which means we can use GFDL, however i think some people have honest issues about it in the doc team (those which concur with the issues of debian-legal) because most of the team from my understanding come from a debian background and love free as in speach not beer
<George^Deka> sorry about spelling, cant be bothered trying to correct it all
<George^Deka> ChrisH: from what i have said do you understand anymore or less ? 
<George^Deka> brb somko time, then if theres any chit chat hang around for a bit or otherwise bed - exam in 9 hours exactly
<ChrisH> George^Deka: Yes, more less than more. But I remotely remember I have read that before. I'm not a legal things guru. So You think that OSSF is the only decent way?
* sid77 bye all
<George^Deka> ChrisH: well i was getting OSSF and FSF mixed up - they are some thing i had wrong acronym
<George^Deka> ChrisH: well i think what licence we use comes down to what guidlines ubuntu follows (from what i can see FSF)
<George^Deka> ChrisH: cause if FSF we can use GFDL otherwise if we use DFSG we cannot use GFDL
<George^Deka> ChrisH: but of cource i think some ppl may have issues with GFDL - such as the non-changable parts of content etc.
<ChrisH> I'm not sure about the legal status of those licenses. And sometimes the discussions in debian-legal are hard to follow IMHO. In addition some people are just talking there. Hmmm.
<plovs_work> hi guys, I'm glad we got people who are in to licenses
<plovs_work> my head always starts spinning after a couple of minutes
<George^Deka> back
<hornbeck> good morning
<George^Deka> well i do have a okay understanding how law works - studied 2 units of it - was going to become a lawyer but then decided against it (mainly didnt get into the course)
<George^Deka> plovs_work: do you understand anything i have said - i am trying to simplify it down as best as i can
<George^Deka> morning hornbeck (well nite for me)
<George^Deka> hornbeck: if you know anything bout licences or are interested check the log
<George^Deka> ChrisH: i only ever consider the full consecus of debian-legal as i know they have lawyers on the team
<hornbeck> I will George
<plovs_work> George^Deka, to be honest, i must read the meaning of all the abbreviations first, i know bsd and gpl and lgpl, that's it
<plovs_work> hornbeck, morning!
<plovs_work> btw Jakub Steiner said he would try to draw a wiki-icon for us (he is one of the main gnome artists)
<GeorgeD> plovs_work: well DFSG is Debian Free Software Guidlines - FSF is the Free Software Foundation
<GeorgeD> does anyone know of anyone @ canonical that makes the decisions on licences etc... would be good to get them talking
<plovs_work> GeorgeD, ok, i just backread the log and mail now
<GeorgeD> plovs_work: cool
<GeorgeD> anyone know if mdz is awake ?
<plovs_work> GeorgeD, doesn't look like it, yet
<plovs_work> GeorgeD, what are invariant sections?
<GeorgeD> plovs_work: they are sections of a document that you can specify cannot be varied
<GeorgeD> plovs_work: which makes those sections non-free
<GeorgeD> plovs_work: IMO
<plovs_work> GeorgeD, sorry i am not a native english speaker, cannot be varried eg, people are not allowed to mess with it?
<hornbeck> man the stupid isp is still messing up my ip range
<GeorgeD> plovs_work: exactly those sections cannont be changed (varied = changed)
<hornbeck> bahhhh
<hornbeck> ChrisH, plovs: I have the book set to docbook and have a decent little start to it
<plovs_work> hornbeck, da man!
<hornbeck> I would like everyone to be able to see it in the next few days and give suggestions
<GeorgeD> ChrisH: the irclog yours ? if so any chance can get like 500 lines or something the change between 100 and 1000 is way too huge
<hornbeck> soon, as this server works :-)
<plovs_work> hornbeck, did you see the faq in yelp?
<plovs_work> GeorgeD, do we have documentation that says that, invariant sections?
<hornbeck> yes
<hornbeck> my email is not hornbeck@aol
<hornbeck> bastards :-)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Uh, err, hmm, well, a software error I suppose. :)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: btw, I'm preparing the steps for the repository here so we know exactly what to do. :) I used SSH in the past. But I think WebDAV through Apache2 would be better.
<ChrisH> hornbeck: btw, hi :)
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Did you get your ISP connection up and running? It's bad that our time zones are so different. :(
<GeorgeD> plovs_work: Do you mean does any of our docs have invariant sections atm - then i think no - but the issue is that our docs can then be modified and make with sections that cannot be changed
<plovs_work> GeorgeD, where is a page with debian compliant licenses? we would like to send stuff upstream, i think
<GeorgeD> plovs_work: debian-legal wiki http://wiki.debian.net/index.cgi?DFSGLicences
<GeorgeD> I have just found what i have been trying to find all night the actual ubuntu stance on licences - http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/licensing/document_view
<GeorgeD> In particuar this section - Ubuntu "main" Component Licence Policy - Must allow modification and distribution of modified copies under the same licence. Just having the source code does not convey the same freedom as having the right to change it. Without the ability to modify software, the Ubuntu community cannot support software, fix bugs, translate it or improve it.
<GeorgeD> reading that it poses a good question can invariant sections be translated - question for the writers of the GFDL
<GeorgeD> can someone please make sure lulu and enrico reads this
<GeorgeD> plovs_work: GFDL cannot be sent upstream
<GeorgeD> anyone awake ?
<GeorgeD> otherwise it will be nite
<ChrisH> GeorgeD: Good luck with your exam. :)
<GeorgeD> ChrisH: thanks ill need it - it is 8 hours away and i dont know a thing and its bedtime now
<GeorgeD> ChrisH: thats the problem with everyone in diff time zones
<plovs_work> GeorgeD, thanks, good night
<GeorgeD> ChrisH: bloody australia
<ChrisH> GeorgeD: You don't know a thing? Whow...
<GeorgeD> ChrisH: well i know some but not enough jack all of the theory - i been slack with the uni work been too busy with ubuntu, firefox and slashdot
<GeorgeD> can someone do me a favour if you see mdz ask him to talk to about licenses then tell me
<GeorgeD> bloody printer low on ink
<GeorgeD> if anyone here has a managment major i need quick help/teaching on mckinsey's 7 S's
<GeorgeD> final nite all
<sivang> anyboyd has new updates on the GFDL thing?
<GeorgeD> sivang: now your awake - read the backlog
<GeorgeD> sivang: been discussing it for last hour at least
<sivang> I saw a post about it being the choosen license.
<sivang> GeorgeD : oh, sorry, will read the backlog
<GeorgeD> sivang: i totally disagree
<GeorgeD> sivang: email me what you think of my opinion
<GeorgeD> i do not want GFDL and think it does not meet http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/licensing/document_view - and if will take it all the way so we dont have to have it
<GeorgeD> sivang: i also think it may cause an issue for translations
<plovs_work> hi sivang!
<GeorgeD> sivang: will stay up for another 5 minutes if you need me to but otherwise bed in 1 minute
<sivang> GeorgeD : no problem, go to bed - I will read the latest posts and through the backlog
<sivang> thanks!
<GeorgeD> sivang: sweet as
<GeorgeD> lulu: if you read this from who did you get the conculsion GFDL wins ?
<GeorgeD> nite all
<sivang> night
<plovs_work> hornbeck, how is the firewall going?
<asw> GeorgeD: I had to leave early from the doc meeting but I asked hornbeck to put in my vote for the GPL as doc license.  I think the GFDL should be permitted in Ubuntu on a case by case basis.  Respectfully, I think you are wrong that it's non-free  but it's a klunky license and there is no need to use it by default.
<asw> On the other hand, being forced to create a mechanism to deal with "non-technical" invariant sections (aka political speech) is probably a good thing. [tm]  
<lulu> I just sent an email on licensing: GeorgeD: Mark is keen for it to be GFDL, but this will not be forced. The creator of the document can choose what license they wish to use. Derived works will remain under the license of the originator. I think this will cover the discussions to date.
<sivang> lulu : yes, I think so pretty much, sounds reasonable on this stage.
<lulu> all: thoughts?
<ChrisH> lulu: According to discussions on debian-devel the GFDL is considered non-free. But I'm not sure if Ubuntu enforces the same legal standards as Debian. (Oh how I hate that lawyer talks.) I think I would use the GFDL anyway.
<asw> asw: obviously fine with me.  I think the bugs in the GFDL will be fixed, so, I have no problems with the GFDL.  And most importantly it's the only license that emphasizes that bits should be licensed differently if they are put to different human purposes.  
<asw> that was for you lulu 
* sivang will stick to GPL
<sivang> on my documents ofcourse.
<asw> my preference is to use the GPL for most things to because it's nice to be able to cut and paste between source to documentation.   
<lulu> Ok - so everyone can choose what they are most comfortable with.
<lulu> How's the documentation writing and polishing going?
<plovs_work> we'll work on the faq today, converting it to docbook
<ChrisH> lulu: We are currently setting up the repository for the FAQ (hornbeck had some network problems). The DocBook/XML template for the news FAQ is ready. plovs_work is already converting.
<ChrisH> lulu: Would we rather upload the processed HTML manually to a Wiki page? Or would it be okay to either upload it directly or have it on another server (like faq.ubuntu.workaround.org or such)?
<lulu> ChrisH: I think it could be ok to upload directly....any security issues?
<lulu> It should all be on our server if at all possible.
<asw> Belaboring the licensing point.  I had lunch with RMS yesterday and after two and a half hours of intersting conversation I am even more convinced that he's right that we should be really careful about not using the same license for protecting ideas in the "creative commons" versus the "science commons" versus the "software commons".  We shouldn't automatically use the GPL because it's what we know.  (For example, what license should
<asw>  be used for http://parts.mit.edu ?) Now, back to docbook and FAQs. 
<ChrisH> lulu: How would we access it? Out plan is to auto-process the DocBook file to XHTML and upload it. FTP access? SSH access?
<asw> PS. Can the DocBook/XML template be used to produce plain text? 
<lulu> You can upload the HTML file within the Documentation area - Browse and select the file....wouldn't that be sufficient?
<ChrisH> lulu: Hard to do it automatically. But for updates once every few days that should be possible.
<ChrisH> lulu: Or you set up a cron job that fetches the HTML page from the repository and puts it online.
<sivang> wow asw, I dind't know you were into biological computation :) nice
<ChrisH> asw: I think so.
<lulu> ChrisH: mmmm - I think we need to chat to admins and plone pepes to see what we can do....what is "going for gold"!
<ChrisH> asw: the "xmlto" package provides converters for DocBook to plain text. And if nothing helps we'll "just" write our own XSLT.
<ChrisH> lulu: Yes. I don't have more access to your server(s) than plain Wiki. So it's hard to decide what would be best. I'm used to script a lot on my web servers.
<asw> sivang: yeah. I have somewhat eclectic professional interests.  
<sivang> ChrisH : yelp failing on me , it cannot find the faq.xml's stylesheet, should I install something for it?
<lulu> ChrisH: Let's put forward the options - pls email me and I will get that explored ok!? thanks Chris :o)
<ChrisH> sivang: Stylesheet? Is yelp not properly installed?
<ChrisH> lulu: Sure.
<lulu> ChrisH: thanks :o)
<asw> ChrisH: I'm reading the logs.  I'm the maintainer of "pmars" the reference implementation for the game corewar. So I can be a test-case for the "new package" process.  I'd also like to put the REC.GAMES.COREWAR faq into docbook using your tools. 
<sivang> ChrisH : xsl:import : unable to load /usr/share/xml/gnome/xslt/docbook/html/db2html.xsl
<sivang> compilation error: file /usr/share/sgml/docbook/yelp/db2html.xsl line 7 element import
<ChrisH> asw: Yes, sure.
<ChrisH> sivang: Very strange. I can run it without problems on Warty here.
<sivang> ohh
<sivang> I'm using hoary
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Hoary is not covered by your support contract. ;)
<sivang> haha
<sivang> right
<ChrisH> asw: What is the "new package process"? Did I miss anything? (Well, I probably miss most things.)
<sivang> new maintainers process I think :)
<ChrisH> Is there such a thing? I only read discussions about it. And on #-devel I heard that the packages are mainly coming from Debian with only very few exceptions.
<sivang> mostly for main supported packages, if I am not mistaken
* sid77 hi
<asw> ChrisH: "new package process" it's more like a new maintainer process. I think sivang is one of the early test-cases.   (or maybe I'm mixing up names.)
<sivang> no, I am :)
<asw> My understanding is that people should be able to contribute to universe first with the intention of contributing to debian later. (So a person can start out as an apprentice ubuntu maintainer but with the understanding they'd probably become a debian maintainer too.)  
<asw> sivang: are you a debian maintainer already? Is that something you are considering?
<sivang> asw : I have, however I am not sure how much time will be left for me to care for debian maintainerships at the moment.
<ChrisH> asw: I have put myself on the MaintainerCandidates page. And although I've been contributing to Debian for two years by now I could imagine to help maintaining packages here before the DAM approves me. ;)
<sivang> you can
<sivang> I think so.
* asw gets something to eat.  
<ChrisH> plovs: Would you like to join the repository already? This is temporary until hornbeck gets his server up. Then we can migrate it (nothing gets lost!).
<ChrisH> plovs: Just install the "subversion" package and run "svn checkout http://ubuntu.workaround.org:8080/faq"
<sivang> we already have a repository?
<ChrisH> sivang: I have set it up to record what steps we need to run on hornbeck's server.
<sivang> oh nice.
<ChrisH> sivang: I imagine it will be a few days until it's up and running. (Time zones, DNS records, routing, firewalls and all that.)
<sivang> yes, that's a nice groccesries list.
<sivang> :)
<ChrisH> sivang: Yeah, a few details can keep you occupied until the server runs.
<ChrisH> sivang: Of course you are invited to try it out too (even if you don't intend to contribute currently).
<ChrisH> The files are publicly readable at: http://torf.workaround.org:8080/faq/
<sivang> I will put there StartingTheJourney :)
<plovs> ChrisH, ok, thanks
<ChrisH> Just committing changes will require a user name and password (that I will create for everybody here of course).
<sivang> thank ChrisH !
<ChrisH> Cool... uploading even works through our squid proxy. :)
<plovs> ChrisH how can i check in?
<plovs> ChrisH, checkout works
<ChrisH> plovs: Run "svn ci". We need to create an account for you first. I'll use "plovs" as a user name. Please /msg me the password you like to get assigned.
<plovs> ChrisH, ok?
<ChrisH> plovs: go for it
<ChrisH> plovs: I have submitted revision 2. Yours should become 3.
<plovs> can i add a new file as well?
<ChrisH> Ah... back again
<ChrisH> plovs: Yes. "svn add filename"
<ChrisH> plovs: "svn stat" shows you which files are new, local or will be uploaded.
<ChrisH> If you are interested I'll write a tiny Wiki page on the most frequently needed SVN commands. Not many actually.
* sivang would also make a good use of such a wiki page.
<ChrisH> I'll write a quick page on how to set up a repository and on how to use it. Will probably save some time for you. And it helps hornbeck get the steps done quickly.
<plovs> ChrisH, that would be great
<plovs> ChrisH, just added my faq_ap.xml to it
<plovs> will start to work on it now
<ChrisH> plovs: ap?
<plovs> ChrisH, btw do you do folding with vim?
<plovs> ChrisH, my initials
<plovs> ChrisH, docbook folds very nice
<ChrisH> plovs: Ah... you may as well put your sections directly into the faq.xml (that's what it's for).
<ChrisH> plovs: the repository will merge all changes automatically. So I can even work on the header while you are adding the old FAQ.
<plovs> aaah, me stone-age man me make fire!
* plovs goes merging
<ChrisH> plovs: Hey, no problem. :) Not everybody on the rotten planet has worked that much with repositories before.
<plovs> ChrisH what is the reason you use <title> <para> now instead of <question> <answer> ?
<plovs> just found out it doesn't work in yelp
<plovs> duh
<ChrisH> plovs: yelp does not seem to be able to use qandasets properly. I have done a few experiments yesterday. As Yelp and XHTML are the main output formats we will probably need I thought it would be better like this.
<ChrisH> plovs: Sorry if I made you double-work.
<plovs> no pro, i hadn't done much, more mucking around with vim and docbook then anything else
<plovs> i love vim
<ChrisH> I'm out for an hour. Gotta go home.
<ChrisH> Online: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SubVersion
<hornbeck> 69.155.172.150/hornbeck
<hornbeck> the start of the "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" is there
<hornbeck> docbook form
<hornbeck> check it out
<hornbeck> I have to go back to work now :-)
<sivang> nice!!
<sivang> :)
<lulu> night guys - catch ya tomorrow :o)
<sivang> bye lulu
<cenerentola> <hornbeck> the start of the "Learning Ubuntu GNU/Linux" is there
<cenerentola> where?
<cenerentola> sorry i lost the first part
<hornbeck> 69.155.172.150/hornbeck
<hornbeck> thats where
<ChrisH> hornbeck: did you get your network working?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Great.
<hornbeck> is it working?
<ChrisH> hornbeck: I have summarized what you would need to do to create the repository. See http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/SubVersion
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Yes, could reach it.
<hornbeck> nice
<hornbeck> :-)
<hornbeck> for how long it will work, I don't know
<ChrisH> hornbeck: Why's that?
<hornbeck> well I have to run, I am on lunch
<hornbeck> ChrisH: seems to still be having problems
<hornbeck> but it is being fixed
<ChrisH> hornbeck: okay... let's talk when you have time
<hornbeck> I will be back in four hours
<ChrisH> uh
<ChrisH> ok
<D4ni31> hui
<ChrisH> Yo
<littlepaul> ChrisH, hast du #ubuntu-doc ins Leben gerufen?
<ChrisH> Nicht alleine. Im doc team-Meeting letzte Woche Donnerstag in #ubuntu-meeting wurde beschlossen, dass man intensiver an der Doku arbeiten wollte. Und da hat man sich auf #ubuntu-doc geeinigt.
<littlepaul> danke fr die Info
<littlepaul> finden team-Meetings regelmig statt?
<ChrisH> littlepaul: Every thursday IIRC. sivang: was it thursday that the doc team meeetings are taking place?
<sivang> It was last time, we might keep it that way if it's good for the members.
<sivang> However, I don't mind setting a new day or not having a "special" day of the week.
<sivang> meetings should work for us, not the other way around :)
<ChrisH> We'll probably not find a time that satisfies everyone.
* ChrisH hates RL meetings
<littlepaul> ist wohl wahr
* sivang wished he could read understand germen
<ChrisH> Yes, we better keep it english here. :)
<plovs> ChrisH, already 30 sections, svn works nicely
<ChrisH> plovs: That reminds me... I need to create the script that automatically creates HTML files with every submission.
<ChrisH> plovs: will you remove the faq_ap.xml file again?
<plovs> ChrisH, how?
<ChrisH> svn rm faq_ap.xml ; svn ci
<plovs> ok (not in the howto)
<ChrisH> Yes, I know. :)
<ChrisH> I didn't intend to copy the subversion book. If you are interested you should read a few chapters there. It's really interesting. And by far not as complicated as CVS.
<plovs> ChrisH, will do, so svn it is? not arch (i have no preference yet)
<plovs> ChrisH, it seems kind of a vi-emcs think
<ChrisH> I just read a lot of documents about "subversion versus arch".
<plovs> and?
<ChrisH> See the last paragraph of the README I just committed.
<plovs> ok
<plovs> in faq?
<ChrisH> yes
<ChrisH> Perhaps parts of Ubuntu are kept in 'arch' currently. But it's a lot like "you'll love it or hate it". After reading the docs I found out that the author mainly wrote it to become famous and to make money with it.
* plovs cleans his glasses again
<ChrisH> I prefer using easy solutions instead of following people that say "this is what serious developers use - screw everything else".
<plovs> pwd
<plovs> /home/plovs/Documents/Ubuntu/SVN/faq
<plovs> [white]  faq > ls
<plovs> Makefile  faq.xml  faq.xml~  svn-commit.tmp~  ubuntu.xs
<ChrisH> cvs up
<ChrisH> errr
<ChrisH> svn up
<ChrisH> I just committed the changes. So you need to check out other people's (my) changes first.
<plovs> i did svn ci 50x duh, reading docs is good
<ChrisH> Nah, docs are for wimps. :)
<ChrisH> There are really only 4 or 5 important commands that you need to know.
<ChrisH> plovs: Would you consider using <sect2> sections for the questions? I intended to have <sect1> for the major categories.
<plovs> well, for our 3 docs i think i can settle for the inferior of the two then (me being a superior hacker and all)
<plovs> meaning svn
<plovs> ChrisH, ok
<plovs> ChrisH, question, how do i put the following lines in docbook: (carefull small flood follows)
<plovs> Pressed CDs
<plovs> Will you really ship CDs free of charge, and where can I get one?
<plovs> If you cannot download CDs, or would simply like more attractive pressed CDs, we can send you pressed copies of the Install CD free of charge.
* ChrisH puts on his helmet
<plovs> you see? Pressed CDs <sect1>
* plovs waves, flood is over, all alive?
<plovs> Will you really ship <sect2>
<plovs> If you cannot <the rest
<plovs> how should i do it instead?
<ChrisH> This way we would have 500 sect1's.
<ChrisH> IMHO categories are very important here.
<plovs> i know, it looks like, not so good
<plovs> agreed, i just do not know how to do it
<ChrisH> plovs: Look at the few questions I have already entered.
<plovs> yes
<ChrisH> plovs: I thought that would serve as a good template
<ChrisH> We surely don't know what all the categories will be called yet
<ChrisH> But it will be easier to move around FAQs than moving all sect1 to sect2.
<plovs> hmm, but the sec1 tags can just be removed right?
<plovs> what if i just dump it all in, then we make sections?
<plovs> or we make sections first?
<ChrisH> Yes, good idea (dump it).
<plovs> or i just dump it all in at sec2?
<plovs> and forget about the classification used in the faq atm
<ChrisH> please look at my example in "SECTION: UBUNTU IN GENERAL". Every FAQ is just <sect2><title>...</title><para>...</para></sect2>
<ChrisH> So sect1 will deliver the categories later.
<plovs> i know, i just wrapped them all in a second sec1, like an extra useless blanket
<plovs> let them be cold, no more extra sect1! forget it! it's over!
<plovs> only sect2!
* plovs goes off to work
* plovs on the faq
<ChrisH> :)
<ChrisH> plovs: Thanks.
<ChrisH> plovs: Glad we agree on that.
<plovs> ChrisH, wait till i start bargaining for icons next time... (but Chris last time we did it your way...)
* plovs grins evily
<ChrisH> I knew there was a catch in this "consensus". :)
* sivang LOLs
<ChrisH> Sheesh. The more comments on arch versus subversion I read I see that it's a "discussion" like Gentoo versus Debian. Gentoo is better. It must be! It's faster! I's customized. It's *your* system. Nothing else is as good as it. It makes you smart.
<ChrisH> Where by now all the 'arch' users have been bashing and the 'subversion' users seeked comments for improvements.
<trickie__> see ya guys
<plovs> ChrisH, ok, initial copying is done, i did not copy the links yet
<plovs> ChrisH, what about the wiki faq?
<plovs> i make a backup copy and then start moving stuff around
<ChrisH> The Wiki FAQ has not really a good quality. We should carefully check which entries are worth moving.
<plovs> ok, time for review
<plovs> ChrisH, more less categories etc?
<ChrisH> plovs: Okay, checking... 0%... 1%... 2%...
<ChrisH> plovs: Very good structure so far.
<ChrisH> plovs: Actually it's very nice to have auto icons added to <note>...</note> sections :)
<plovs> ChrisH, i just *had* to put one in
<ChrisH> plovs: where?
<ChrisH> plovs: Ah, the one <note>... yes :)
<ChrisH> plovs: We can worry about the categories later. Did you include everything that was on both FAQs in the Wiki?
<plovs> ChrisH, we should have it checked, i might accidently have deleted something, moving stuff around
<plovs> no, not from the wiki, only the support faq
<ChrisH> IMHO the support FAQ is the more important page.
<plovs> ChrisH, i think we should finish this one and then slowly put things from the wiki faq in
<ChrisH> Agreed.
<ChrisH> plovs: Is 'configuratoin' and 'installation' really different things?
<ChrisH> plovs: 'contributing' should be moved to the bottom imho
<ChrisH> plovs: And you should edit your own <author> section at the beginning of the file
<ChrisH> plovs: And add yourself to the copyright
<plovs_> ChrisH, did your bot stop?
<plovs_> :-)
<ChrisH> plovs_: Yes, unfortunately I made a mistake on mentors.debian.net today which disconnected the machine for about 6 hours. :(
<plovs_> ah well...
<plovs_> duh?
<plovs_> what do you mean i have quit?
<plovs_> stupid computer
<plovs_> ChrisH, http://verbum.org/blog/freesoftware/stofsrc
<plovs_> ChrisH, colin walters isn't he an ubuntu person as well?
<ChrisH> colin watson? Yes.
<ChrisH> But what a stupid thing to say: "it [subversion]  will never let me hack while disconnected on my laptop". Of course it does. What's the problem about having a central repository?
<ChrisH> The arguments from arch-lovers are really childish. "CVS is a joke." "Subversion will never be a distributed system." Hell!
<ChrisH> Some guys on #ubuntu-devel are really great hackers. But their blind love for 'arch' is disturbing.
<ChrisH> The very same people haven't complained about CVS for years. And now all of a sudden even other improved systems are worthless. Yeah, right.
<sivang> isn't subversion already a distributed system?
<ChrisH> Of course.
<sivang> so what do they base their arguments on
<sivang> ?
<ChrisH> It has a central storage. But so what. Everybody is free to work around as long as they like.
<ChrisH> In Arch you don't have a server at all. It's all like "file sharing" (P2P).
<sivang> ah, that sounds hmmm, how to put it nice for the log?
<ChrisH> What annoys me is that they are complaining that the Subversion developers are arrogant (the mailing list reads quite nicely IMHO) and CVS is dead (since when?). But everything that drops out of the author of 'arch' is arrogant bullshit.
<sivang> Boy, didn't know that even versioning systems have their share of religious wars.
<plovs_> how would bitkeeper fit into this? arch-like or subversion-like?
<ChrisH> http://www.red-bean.com/sussman/svn-anti-fud.html
<ChrisH> Haven't used Bitkeeper every.
<plovs_> sivang, yes, and bitkeeper is the worst of all :)
<ChrisH> Amiga/Atari. Vi/Emacs. Subversion/Arch. I'm so tired of that. And I'm disappointed that core developers start that fight again. They really should know better.
<sivang> bitkeeper sounds like something you would download X rated movies using...oops! I'm logged :)
<ChrisH> sivang: You mean like the "pornviewer" debian package? :)
<plovs_> bitkeeper is used by the panteon themselves
<sivang> haha
<plovs_> pantheon, i mean
<sivang> that is by far, the most hilarious package name in the history of OS
<sivang> :)
<sivang> who are the pantheon ?
<plovs_> and it as unfree as can be, and linus likes it
<plovs_> the kernel-people
<plovs_> which is, i think, rather funny
<plovs_> i agree with the free software people, but fanatism is always bad, even if you're right
<ChrisH> I listened to a discussion in #ubuntu-devel today and it scared me a bit. Sounded like an 'arch sect' for a moment.
<sivang> do we have it all loggified ? :)
<sivang> bitkeeper is not open source?
<plovs_> sivang, very much not
<ChrisH> It's free. But not open source.
<sivang> and linus has no problem with it?
<sivang> strange..
<ChrisH> Why should he? As long as it's not eating the code... :)
<sivang> maybe we should wait for HURD to become production quality...but then again we're back to the arch issue
<ChrisH> I can only hope that Ubuntu will continue to not breed evangelists. Let's allow arch, cvs, subversion and even notepad.exe if people like. Even if Mark loves Python let's have Tcl, Perl and PHP around.
<sivang> to be quoted on the next CC meeting...
<sivang> :)
<plovs_> sivang, Linus is a funny guy, he wouldn't fit very well into debian(-legal)
<sivang> as long as he give the kernel source for free..
<sivang> and have it GPLd
<sivang> ..
<plovs_> as he said once, he uses the best tool for the job
<ChrisH> Everbody is talking about freedom of choice but there can only be one... :)
<sivang> yes I recall that.
<plovs_> ChrisH, did you notice, somebody asked today for 500 lines in the log, would that be hard to add?
<ChrisH> plovs_: Not at all hard.
<ChrisH> plovs_: done
<plovs_> ok, i do not remeber who, but he'll be happy
<ChrisH> I'll charge him later. :)
<ChrisH> Okay... time to nap again. plovs_, I'll check in a few changes to the "general" section which I intend to get done tomorrow.
<ChrisH> plovs_: did you read my suggestions a couple of lines above?
<plovs_> ok, i'm off as well
<plovs_> which ones, i'm half asleep
<ChrisH> plovs_: please check the logs tomorrow :)
<plovs_> ok, see ya!
<plovs_> goodnight sivang!
<sivang> night!
<sivang> sleep tight
<ChrisH> renite
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-21
<mdke> hey Riddell 
<Riddell> hi mdke 
<Riddell> mdke: I've put the kde web stylesheet in docs.ubuntu SVN
<mdke> are those different stylesheets to the ones we were using before?
<mdke> saw em
<Riddell> it's the same as is currently used in the offline version
<mdke> ok, are those different to the ones i was using to build the -web targets?
<Riddell> you'll need to put /usr/share/doc/kde/HTML/en/ at help.ubuntu.com/stable
<Riddell> mdke: yes
<mdke> stable?
<Riddell> meaning stable KDE branch, that's what docs.kde.org happens to use
<mdke> i have to make a directory stable/ ?
<mdke> Riddell, anyhow, i'll check it out in the morning
<mdke> thanks
<Riddell> mdke: how do I validate a docbook file?
<mdke> Riddell, there is a script for it in the base dir of trunk
<mdke> ./validate.sh path/to/file.xml
<Riddell> thanks
<Liz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultimediaApplications
<Liz> is that wiki actually finished?
<Liz> if you scroll down to where it says totem 
<Liz> it kinda ends too soon...
<Riddell> Liz: I think mdke has gone to sleep
<Riddell> and he hasn't included kaffeine!
<Riddell> so no, it's not finished :)
<Liz> ok..its just i was looking for the plugins for totem to play real audio files
<Riddell> Liz: in w32codecs
<Liz> ty Riddell 
<jsgotangco> sup =)
<mhz> jsgotangco: Madpilot I know you are subscibed to DYI. What's your opinion on the fact that many material designed to promote Ubuntu is not being designed with free formats, but we do spread freedom of IT?
<jsgotangco> materials not in free formats?
<jsgotangco> like what?
<mhz>  The latest promotional leaflet in pdf or source. (Oct 05)
<mhz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing
<jsgotangco> well there's really a good reason for that
<mhz> ?
<jsgotangco> if its in source, you'd want full bleed/full resolution materials
<jsgotangco> and most printers only accept something like illustrator format
<mhz> hmmmmm
<mhz> yes
<jsgotangco> its a necessary evil
<jsgotangco> now if printers accepted  inkscape or scribus files that would be a breakthrough...
<mhz> but doesn't that also spread a contradictory message?
<mhz> AFAIK, all printers do accept PDF
<jsgotangco> not really, unless youre Richarch Stallman
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> but, in Ubuntu, how do you open an Illustrator file?
<jsgotangco> no idea really
<mhz> see my point?
<mhz> I have looked up
<mhz> so far, none
<jsgotangco> if the templates are in illustrator for example, it means its already ready for print right?
<mhz> yes
<mhz> but the point is
<mhz> we promote freedom of access
<jsgotangco> but if you did something from scratch, let's say in inkscape, your best shot is to send it to the printers in hires pdf
<mhz> freedom of access is opossed to promoting propietary formats
<jsgotangco> like i said its a necessary evil, your printers dont even give a damn on the freedom thing if it borks their business in my opinion
<mhz> hehehehehe
<mhz> hm, I think this is something we need to analyze in deeper cases
<jsgotangco> it needs to be two way though, not just us pushing...
<mhz> I think designers should be aware that they are contributing to a community that sprads the word of freedom
<mhz> if we dont' push, then who will?
<mhz> if not now, then when?
<jsgotangco> i'm not going to be suckered into a debate in the middle of work
<jsgotangco> hehe
<mhz> if freedom of access were not an issue here or were not one of the very basic concepts in the manifesto, then, I'd understand
<mhz> jsgotangco: sorry, I get carriied away
<mhz> esp. when something feels not consequent with manifesto
<jsgotangco> well you can post that concern in -sounder i'm sure it'll be a lively chat
<mhz> sounder?
<mhz> oh, #ubuntu-sounder
<mhz> what's that channel for?
<jsgotangco> no i mean -sounder mailing lists
<bhuvan> rob1: ping
<rob1> bhuvan, pong
<bhuvan> rob1, yeah
<bhuvan> rob1, i've couple of things to discuss regarding server guide. shall we discuss now ?
<rob1> bhuvan, sure
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> can we split server guide into multiple files using xinclude ? just like we did for desktop guide
<rob1> yes
<bhuvan> ok
<bhuvan> next, regarding the editor we use in our server guide ..
<bhuvan> as we are not going to install gui, we cant suggest gedit
<rob1> yep
<rob1> true
<bhuvan> so shall we suggest emacs, vi or vim ?
<bhuvan> i prefer vim
<rob1> vim/emacs/nano?
<rob1> i prefer vim
<bhuvan> cool
<bhuvan> next regarding the package manager .. 
<bhuvan> seems apt-get is the best bet
<rob1> or aptitude
<bhuvan> which one you prefer ?
<bhuvan> i prefer apt-get
<rob1> I use apt-get myself
<bhuvan> so ? :)
<rob1> its up to you
<bhuvan> fine
<bhuvan> thats it, thankx
<rob1> ok np
<bhuvan> * south africans are too good for indian cricket team. www.cricinfo.com
<rob1> have heh
<rob1> hmm 
<rob1> bah yelp doesn't like olinks
<rob1> piece of crap..
<mhz> i all
<mhz> hi
<mhz> have you seen : http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/RedirectingExternalLinks
<mhz> ?
<jsgotangco> hello
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: ping?
<mgalvin> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> mgalvin: pm
<mgalvin> sure
<jjesse> jsgotangco: when you have a second can i ask you a question?
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> (sorry if i wasn't active lately)
<jjesse> no worries from me figured you were busy :)
<jjesse> what would break if for kubuntu docs we dropped the k in front of the docs (question riddell asked)
<jjesse> i would assume it would just be the makefile that needed to be changed?
<jjesse> so kquickguide would be quickguide?
<jsgotangco> yes that's correct
<jsgotangco> our kubuntu docs don't point to anything else at the moment
<jsgotangco> all of them are self sustaining with the exception of the entities
<jjesse> ok, he sent me an email asking about them, i'll forward it on to the doc list, but i figured that it would only break the make file
<Riddell> I'd also like to change the makefile target names, they're currently very cryptic
<jjesse> grin didn't know you were lurking here
<jsgotangco> so the makefiles will have the khelpcenter templates as well?
<jjesse> hmm let me forward the email that started this if that is alright Riddell 
<jjesse> hmm sent that email to the list but never received it back from the list did anyone else get it/
<jsgotangco> there is none
<jsgotangco> i haven't received a report form the list either
<jjesse> trying again: (
<jjesse> sent again
<jjesse> anything?
<jsgotangco> none
<jjesse> the last i receivced from the kubuntu users mailing list was 9:30 am eastern
<mhz> jsgotangco: have you seen : http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/RedirectingExternalLinks
<jsgotangco> checking
<jsgotangco> mhz: interesting...moin syntax that looks like iptables heh
<mhz> heheheh
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> we could use it to work around some wiki issues
<jsgotangco> yes it can be pretty useful
<jsgotangco> ok good night
<mhz> nite, jerome
<jjesse> anyone know if *ubuntu mailing lists (kubuntu users, ubunt-doc, kubuntu-devel) are having issues?
<poningru> jjesse: wfm
<poningru> well ubuntu-dev and ubuntu-doc anyway
<jjesse> poningru: was just wondering haven't gotten anything from kubuntu or kubuntu-dev all day
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-22
<jsgotangco> hiya
<jsgotangco> judax: hey troy
<rob1> wow this chan is about as exciting as #ubuntu-meeting
<LaserJock> rob1: lol
<jsgotangco> hey all
<jsgotangco> hey robitaille 
<rob1> hi
<Madpilot> hi all
<robitaille> Hi jsgotangco   hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkFeedback - huh?
<Burgundavia> indeed
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  thanks for the link about odf and  accessibility on your blog.  very interesting reading.
<robitaille> and with that I'm going to bed; it's getting late
<HiddenWolf> Guys, there are some linux 2.4 manuals on my Breezy box
<HiddenWolf> In the help browser
<mdke> HiddenWolf, yes. pls file a bug against the package that provides them
<mdke> rob1, bloody hell the desktop guide takes a long time to build
<mdke> argh
<mdke> i can't write today
<dranyam> ive got a bit of a problem
<dranyam> i managed to delete one of the taskbars
<dranyam> and now when i minimize windows
<dranyam> they just disappear
<mdke> dranyam, this is the docteam channel, you need #ubuntu for support
<dranyam> k
<dranyam> thx
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-23
<jsgotangco> morning
<jsgotangco> mdke: still awake?
<judax> jsgotangco: HI
<jsgotangco> hey judax how's things?
<judax> not bad and you?
<jsgotangco> just about to start work heh
<judax> ah, well, one must eat
<jsgotangco> heh yep
<jsgotangco> its fun though
<jsgotangco> i currently work for a small game company
<jsgotangco> brb
<judax> yeah, that would be VERY fun, I work for a boring company, but they write paychecks
<jsgotangco> hi
<mpt> ho
<jsgotangco> hi mpt 
<mgalvin> hey guys
<jsgotangco> hey mgalvin 
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> re
<mgalvin> hey jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> hey mgalvin how's it going?
<mgalvin> pretty good, same old. yourself?
<jsgotangco> not bad, currently at work though (its almost 11am)
<mgalvin> trying to get dapper installed for todays cds
<mgalvin> 10pm here :)
<mgalvin> i think my cd-rw is bad, gotta buy some new ones tomorrow
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, ping
<Burgundavia> http://img493.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotubuntudvdcoversvgink.png
<Burgundavia> robitaille, ^
<robitaille> nice
<Burgundavia> the best part abut svg is that we can get it translated, as it simply xml
<robitaille> is it for dvds, or cds, or both?
<Burgundavia> a dvd cover
<robitaille> so maybe the 2 references to "CD" should be changed to "DVD" in the text?
<Burgundavia> it would be a cd in a dvd case
<Burgundavia> the idea would be that we would get them into library catalogues
<robitaille> ok.  that explain
<Burgundavia> grrr
<Burgundavia> the bloody linux for human beings in the logo is not text
<Burgundavia> so the non-english versions will need to change which logo they use
<robitaille> that's exactly why the gnome-splash image remove the slogan between Hoary and Breezy:  because non-english speaker didn't like the english at every login :)
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> the font is quite odd
<Burgundavia> it is almost arial, but not quite
<Burgundavia> hmm, now that works
<Burgundavia> robitaille, the doc team calendar in LP is wrong
<rob1> mdke_, it takes about 40 seconds if that on my pc
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  wrong in which sense?
* robitaille should look at that calendar
<Burgundavia> robitaille, time
<robitaille> yep I see that.  but only you and jsgotangco  can change it :)
<Burgundavia> actually I can't
<Burgundavia> there doesn't appear to be a way to edit the calendar
<Burgundavia> and I cannot add new things
<Burgundavia> says permission denied
<robitaille> but you are an admin?
<Burgundavia> don't ask me
<Burgundavia> yes, I am an admin
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  ping
<Burgundavia> I really need a good place to store my images
<robitaille> shaw?
<robitaille> flickr?
<robitaille> the wiki?
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> eventually I am going to get my own webspace
<Burgundavia> well, I just emailed Mark, silbs and mdy about getting artwork in SVG
<robitaille> I store my pictures on my home PC, and serve it to the "world" (i.,e my family) using Gallery
<Burgundavia> ick, PHP
<robitaille> it works, and I password-restrict to some IPs
<Burgundavia> ah, that is ok
<robitaille> a lot of people seems to use flickr, but I have some personal problem at entrusting yahoo with all my personal pictures (and I hate the interface)
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  does this one works for you:  https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-doc/+calendar/events/513/+edit
<jsgotangco> hey
<jsgotangco> sorry i went out for lunch
<jsgotangco> what's up with the calendar?
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  it is at the wrong time for the next meeting
<Burgundavia>  Sorry, you don't have permission to access this page.
<robitaille> according to LP, the meeting is in 15min :)
<jsgotangco> strange
<jsgotangco> could it be my timezone?
<robitaille> probably
<Burgundavia> likely
<Burgundavia> I think LP wants things in UTC
<jsgotangco> ok then it sould be around 22:00 in my area then
<robitaille> i thought LP wants things in the timezone in your profile
<jsgotangco> what time is our meeting again?
<Burgundavia> 14:00 utc
<Burgundavia> 6 bloody am
<jsgotangco> maybe i should change the team's date profile then
<jsgotangco> if its possible
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> can you figure out why I can't edit the calendar either?
<jsgotangco> no idea
* Burgundavia wonders how he ended up as an admin for the doc team in LP
<jsgotangco> because i asked you
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> and you said "its ok"
<Burgundavia> did you?
<jsgotangco> i did
<Burgundavia> ah, thats ok then
<jsgotangco> you probably still had ubz hangover back then
<Burgundavia> in other news, http://img493.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotubuntudvdcoversvgink.png
<Burgundavia> an dvd cover modelled on the cd cover
<jsgotangco> bloody hell now it says the meeting on my side is at 5am
<jsgotangco> can you check the lp calendar now on the team
<Burgundavia> current says the correct time for me
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, you got your timezone settings right in LP?
<jsgotangco> ok so it depends on MY time
* mpt ph3ars the launchpad calendar
<jsgotangco> 14:00UTC is 22:00UTC on my side
* jsgotangco wished it just assumed UTC
<robitaille> https://launchpad.net/products/launchpad-cal/+bug/2557
<Burgundavia> holy crap that bug is old
<jsgotangco> yes so it depends on the owner's timezone then
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: the DVD cover looks good
<Madpilot> I like the "legally encouraged to copy" ;)
<Burgundavia> that is part of the original CD
<Burgundavia> I just tweaked the wording of the Breezy cd
<Burgundavia> I removed the "share and give to friends" as the dvd is going to be part of a library collection
<Madpilot> one typo - CD should always be capitalized - so should DVD
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> image viewer knows nothing about arial
<Burgundavia> that is very odd
<jsgotangco> heh what else can inscape do
<Burgundavia> I don;t know if svg has the logic for multiple pages
<Burgundavia> if it does, inkscape will support it one day
<Burgundavia> it already supports linked text areas and other things the dtps have
<Madpilot> SVG is ultimately based on XML, so it might be able to do multiple pages some day...
<Burgundavia> the SVG spec migth already have it in it and inkscape doesn't support it yet
<Burgundavia> SVG spec is huge
<Burgundavia> all the animation stuff is not even covered by Inkscape yet
<Burgundavia> and something old I did
<Burgundavia> http://img292.imageshack.us/my.php?image=motulogo4fe.png
<Madpilot> cool. tweak it so that the red "orbit" goes thru the left-hand circle of the Ubuntu logo
<Burgundavia> say again?
<Madpilot> on the MOTU logo - move the 'back' of the red orbit elipse up a bit so that it goes thru the middle of the bottom-left circle of the U logo
<Burgundavia> you mean the left most orange circle?
<Burgundavia> http://www.syslog.com/~jwilson/pics-i-like/bacon4mn.jpg
<Burgundavia> I love #wikipedia
<jsgotangco> yum is bloody slow
<Madpilot> yes, the left-most circle on the outer side of the Ubuntu logo
<Burgundavia> ok, did that
<Burgundavia> that circle is orange
<Burgundavia> the red one is the upper right one
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what are you using yum on?
<jsgotangco> im in centos atm
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> you poor bastard
<Burgundavia> I am stuck in RPM hell at work
<Burgundavia> we don't even have yum configured
<jsgotangco> ubuntu decided to go gung-ho and renamed something that skype badly needs
<jsgotangco> have you seen the madpenguin writeup?
<Burgundavia> the ubuntu in business one?
<Burgundavia> http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=5557
<Burgundavia> "My name is Simon, I am a Linux addict, and this is my story. "
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> addict
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> i live and breathe it every day
<jsgotangco> it pays for my food
<Burgundavia> linux desktop pays for mine too
<Burgundavia> just sadly not Ubuntu....
<jsgotangco> well i got some servers running ubuntu
<jsgotangco> not desktops though
<jsgotangco> but the "mission-critical" are on rhel
<jsgotangco> i should do a proof of concept on ubuntu running for a telco before dapper comes out
<jsgotangco> carrier grade ubuntu
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgundavia> I really hope https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/network-authentication goes through
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> for some reason, the ff fonts in centos look really good
<Burgundavia> they look not bad in FC4 too
<Madpilot> FF Ubuntu has pretty ugly default fonts, frankly
<Burgundavia> about the only thing that FC4 does well
<jsgotangco> its pretty good
<jsgotangco> although FC4 is a mess IMO compared to centos
<jsgotangco> but thats understandable
<Burgundavia> Fedora core and Opensuse are test beds for RH and Novell engineers
<Burgundavia> nothing more, nothing less
<jsgotangco> opensuse must be really bad then
<Burgundavia> not really
<jsgotangco> yuck centos has ooo 1.x
<jsgotangco> brb
<highvoltage> centos!? who uses centos!?
<Burgundavia> people who need to install non-free binary stuff
<Burgundavia> and crackheads
<highvoltage> :)
<Madpilot> crackheads? your prejudices are showing, Burgundavia ;)
<Burgundavia> highvoltage, I just /query-ed you, did that reach you or is Freenode playing tricks again?
<highvoltage> ah, sorry, i don't have auto-idenfify
<Burgundavia> bloody freenode
<Burgundavia> holy crap I get a lot of spam
<jsgotangco> wow we're organizing an in-house wesnoth tourney
<jsgotangco> hehe
<Burgundavia> I see
<Madpilot> the LUGRadio guys are big Ubuntu fans... (and wierd as heck, too...)
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, what are you doing for dinner tomorrow?
<Burgundavia> LUGradio is rather odd
<Madpilot> no plans tomorrow night - why?
<robitaille> but highly addictive :)
<Burgundavia> shall we do dinner at your place? I am free until about 9
<Madpilot> robitaille: listened to the latest 'cast from them yet?
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: sure - beer and stir fry?
<Burgundavia> sounds good
<Burgundavia> I will buy the beer
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: I was about to suggest that ;)
<robitaille> Madpilot,  yes I did
<robitaille> I think I have listened to all of them 
<Madpilot> robitaille: lots of Ubuntu/Edubuntu/Kubuntu/etc etc mentions
<robitaille> which reminds me:  I was going to send them an email about this:  they finally got a good number of reference to Ubuntu.  In the 1st episode of the season, they only made 2 small passing reference to Ubuntu; very dissapointing
<Madpilot> heh
<Madpilot> the only time they mentioned Gentoo (just to pick a different distro) was to slag it...
<robitaille> Burgundavia  got one of his letter read on the air a few months back
<Madpilot> cool
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: remember which ep that was in?
<Burgundavia> the one right after the "rate distros by evilness" episdoe
<Burgundavia> 2:15 I think
<robitaille> and in typical lugradio fashion, they made some remark about his faimily name
<Burgundavia> yes
<Madpilot> ...what a shock...
<Burgundavia> night
<Madpilot> night
<bhuvan> docteam meeting is about to start in 15mins ?
<jjesse> i think so
<bhuvan> ok
<jsgotangco> hey all
<jjesse> hiya jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> are we all set?
<jjesse> for the meeting?
<jsgotangco> oh 10 more minutes
<jsgotangco> yeah
<kjcole> Hi jsgotangco.
<jsgotangco> hey kjcole 
<kjcole> (And hi everyone else too. ;-) )
<jsgotangco> good thing i arrived early
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> work has been hell, if hell means playing games all day
<jjesse> wow that sounds rough ;)
<jsgotangco> jjesse: VERY
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, good work :)
<jsgotangco> i'll definitely enjoy this industry
<kjcole> only hell if you're losing the games, right?
<jsgotangco> true
<jjesse> you recently switched jobs didn't you?
<jsgotangco> hiya bshumate 
<jsgotangco> jjesse: yeah...
<jsgotangco> i haven't been handling the heavy stuff yet, but it'll come
<bshumate> hello Jerome
<bshumate> hello all
<bshumate> call me Brian ;-)
<jsgotangco> can we start whoever is here?
<bhuvan> seems, mdke & rob1 is missing ?
<jsgotangco> its ok we have an agenda anyway
<bhuvan> ok
<jsgotangco> mdke_ just drops by all of a sudden
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: meeting time on -meeting
<bhuvan> yeah, let me start with w.u.c/ServerGuide  
<jsgotangco> jeezz i wish lp calendar always assumed utc
<jjesse> lp assumes time based on your location preferences
<Riddell> jjesse: would you be able to commit anything?  just so we have a template to play with for setting up the packaging?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> but i am the current owner of the team
<Riddell> jjesse: RE: kubuntu-desktop guide
<jjesse> Riddell: i can sure try after this weekend
<jsgotangco> so the things i add depend on my timezone
<Riddell> cool
<jsgotangco> that means i add 22UTC as 6am the next day
<jjesse> i've subscribed to the calendar so when you updat it it changes to my time zone
<jsgotangco> ok can you check now
<jjesse> that is correct time for me
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> rob1 must be drunk by now
<jsgotangco> okay i gott sleep then
<jsgotangco> or rather play with my new phone :)
<jsgotangco> good night
<Riddell> what's the point in the imagelist.txt files?
<Riddell> which of the generic documents are likely to be in dapper?
* Riddell confused by how i18n works
<rob1> Riddell, I was just looking at the docteam meeting log, yes work has started on the desktop guide, but no writing just yet, just setting up the xml how I want it first
<Riddell> rob1: yeah saw that thanks.  just stole it as a template for the kubuntu desktop guide
<rob1> np
<kjcole> To quote Pink Floyd, "Is there anybody out there? (out there, out there)?"
<kjcole> S'alright then. Adieu.
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-24
<bhuvan> rob1: ping
<rob1> bhuvan, pong
<bhuvan> rob1: i wish to freeze server guide toc. your comments ?
<bhuvan> rob1, see w.u.c/ServerGuide
<rob1> its looking pretty good to me, although if you do "freeze" the toc still feel free to change things later if you so wish
<bhuvan> yeah, definitely
<bhuvan> "freeze", i mean proceed in this direction. in future, we may make further amendments
<rob1> sure
<bhuvan> also see, http://puggy.symonds.net/~bhuvan/ubuntu-doc/build/generic/serverguide/C/  
<bhuvan> let me know whether we can put it in svn ..
<rob1> I take it you will patch from your own svn as needed?
<rob1> we really have to get you an account I think..
<rob1> bhuvan, sure just send the patch
<bhuvan> i guess,jsgotangco is in the process of getting the account for me
<bhuvan> fine
<rob1> elmo looks after the accounts, but he is hard to get hold of
<mdke_> rob1, 20 seconds? it takes about 5 minutes on our server, which is super fast. you got some kind of incredi-computer?
<rob1> I timed it
<rob1> I'll make it now
<rob1> started
<mdke> no prob, i can't hang around
<mdke> i'm on this training weekend, got class now
<rob1> finished
<mdke> are you doing "make dg-C" from the ubuntu/ folder?
<rob1> no
<mdke> try that
<mdke> gtg now
<rob1> change into the desktopguide/C then do ./mk
<mdke> rob1, sure, but the preview server is using the Makefiles to serve the documents
<mdke> anyhow, np
<rob1> I'll have to copy it across
<mdke> we should just call the specific one from the main makefile i think
<mdke> for all docs
<mdke> --> gone
<rob1> sure, I just didn't want to mess with the normal makefile and screw something up
<rob1> thats odd, after doing a copy/paste from the mk file and fixing up the paths into the makefile, its really slow to build still..
<rob1> at least its doing it right
<rob1> now
<jsgotangco> brrrrrr cold outside
<bhuvan> jjesse: ping
<jjesse> bhuvan: pong
<bhuvan> jjesse, regarding the server guide
<jjesse> sure
<bhuvan> imo, we can have one server guide as none of the server application is tied to a desktop
<bhuvan> the server guide doesn't restrict if he installs a server application in the existing desktop
<jjesse> was the thought to use the doc for ubuntu-server or for those that are trying to run kubuntu/ubuntu as a server
<jjesse> or are you saying it doesn't matter?
<bhuvan> kubuntu/ubuntu, doesn't matter
<bhuvan> approach is so..
<jjesse> as long as you don't forget that ubuntu-server (which in my view most people should use to install) is different then a kubuntu/ubuntu install
<bhuvan> but, the guide is applicable in either scenerios
<bhuvan> yeah, the guide also addresses the people who wish to install just one application, say mailman on their existing desktop
<jjesse> so whether you install kubuntu/ubuntu and run it as a server or install ubuntu-server the doc will be the same
<bhuvan> yes
<jjesse> ok then i'm fine w/ having only one doc
<bhuvan> ok
<jjesse> then will this server guide be bpackaged for all three distros? 
<jjesse> it should become a part of kubuntu-docs, ubuntu-docs and whatever they use for ubuntu-server docs
<jjesse> or am i wrong here?
<bhuvan> you're not wrong. i guess, it'd be packaged for all distros. i must confirm with mdke though
<jjesse> i think it is a great idea, but i'm just trying to make sure kubuntu doesn't get forgotten which it does some time
<jjesse> just so you know where i'm comming from
<bhuvan> yeah :)
<jjesse> ok headiing out for a bit,  need to leave to buddies house to watch college football
<bhuvan> ok
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-25
<Burgundavia> why do I always run out of cds just when the next flight/colony/etc. releases?
<Burgundavia> salut mpt 
<mpt> yo
<rob1> wow the make file is so slow, but as a normal shell script it isn't..
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, http://art.gnome.org/themes/gdm_greeter/1160
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: cool - I'll bookmark it for when I have to activate GDM again
<Burgundavia> mpt_, where are you currently?
<mpt_> Burgundavia, New Jersey
<Burgundavia> why are you at Princeton?
<Kinnison> k
<Kinnison> urgh, w/w
<Burgundavia> hello Kinnison 
<Kinnison> Hi Burgundavia 
<mpt> Burgundavia, spending a couple of weeks with my girlfriend
<Burgundavia> mpt, ah
<Burgundavia> bon soir, robitaille 
<robitaille> allo Burgundavia 
<robitaille> finally finished installing Flight-1 on my laptop
<Burgundavia> I keep running out of cds right when I need them
<Burgundavia> got to go buy some tomorrow
<robitaille> yeah...today i dl/burned flight-1 for ubuntu/kubuntu, and downloaded breezy/edubuntu to install for the kids
<Burgundavia> I see
<robitaille> I guess we'll have to bite the bullet and reorganize the wiki pages for the laptop team soon
<Burgundavia> I should do it
<Burgundavia> I will do so tomorrow
<robitaille> I want to try to install edubuntu tomorrow.  I'm getting fed up of maintaining a win98 partition only for the few games they play :)
<robitaille> they = the oldest 2 kids
<Madpilot> robitaille: are you going to try to get their Windows games running under WINE?
<robitaille> not initially.  I just want them to discover  a few new games in linux besides the window-only ones they borrow from the library
<Burgundavia> I need to turn my workplace on gcompris and the rest of the Edubuntu games suite
<robitaille> at their age, it has to be simple;   running wine for their game, which usually include mounting CDs is probably not simple enough
<robitaille> will be right back...testing the sleep mode 
<Burgundavia> ok, next installfest planning email away
* Burgundavia enjoys stiring to pot sometimes
<Madpilot> I think you mean "the pot"?
<Burgundavia> ya
<robitaille> well, it was a success: like you wrote, 100% success rate :)
<Burgundavia> that is what I said in my email
<Burgundavia> the installfest was a complete success, it was just very very small
<Madpilot> how much of a problem was Ubuntu64 on an AMD64 laptop? Did everything "just work"(tm)?
<robitaille> the problem is that the people you want to bring in an install fest are generally not the ones subscribing to the vlug mailing list... or scanning their web site
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> not a problem except that the machine refused to boot X
<Burgundavia> with the ati or radeon driver
<Burgundavia> vesa worked
<Burgundavia> didn't get a chance to try fglrx on it or r300
<Madpilot> fglrx isn't on the CD, is it?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Madpilot> no internet connection in the room?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Madpilot> meh
<Madpilot> for next time: get a net connection, somehow
<Burgundavia> uvic has wireless but we would have needed to setup ndiswarpper, etc.
<Burgundavia> we need wired routers
<Madpilot> wireless to wired?
<Burgundavia> robitaille, what do you think I should do with the ancient laptop testing team stuff?
<Burgundavia> drop them entirely or move them onto a seperate page
<Burgundavia> ?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, vlug brings a wireless router. We can daisy chain off that
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  I kept mines in a subpage,  OldReports  or something like that
<Madpilot> do I report Natuilus bugs to launchpad or bugzilla.u.c?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, either
<Madpilot> k
<Madpilot> https://launchpad.net/products/nautilus/+bug/4654
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: do you have a fresh, un-fiddled-with Breezy install on your laptop?
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> but I will have a dapper tomorrow
<Madpilot> meh. I'm too fond of config tweaking, I can't remember what I've fiddled with in Gnome's options ;)
<robitaille> with the laptop testing,  I have learned to like the default option since my main partition I work from is the one I keep reinstalling on top
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-26
<mdke> everning
<Madpilot> afternoon
<mdke> hi Madpilot 
<Madpilot> there's some really strange stuff in the wiki... Exhibit A: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkFeedback  ;)
<mdke> looking
<mdke> haha
<mdke> that's the beauty of the old wiki
<Madpilot> I'm tempted to just nuke that - "Too silly to exist" - but somebody might actually object...
<mdke> Madpilot, no, the page seems to be intended by the artwork team for a proper purpose
<mdke> the comment is a bit odd, but then again, some other comments might come
<Madpilot> I guess - I'll leave it - it's just an odd comment...
<mdke> heh
<mdke> sftp://matt@eustathios:22/stuff/www/mdke/images/ipod/boot.jpg
<mdke> sftp://matt@eustathios:22/stuff/www/mdke/images/ipod/logo.jpg
<mdke> sftp://matt@eustathios:22/stuff/www/mdke/images/ipod/menu.jpg
<mdke> sftp://matt@eustathios:22/stuff/www/mdke/images/ipod/play.jpg
<mdke> gah
<mdke> stupid goddam laptop
<jsgotangco> hi all
<jsgotangco> hey Burgundavia are you good with servers?
<Burgundavia> not really had much experience with them
<jsgotangco> for some reason all my users have access to each others' $home
<Burgundavia> read only?
<jsgotangco> well yes
<Burgundavia> that is a not a bug
<jsgotangco> but they shouldn't really be able to cd to /home/foo
<Burgundavia> by default home directories are world readable
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> that
<Burgundavia> there are was a long thread about it about 2 months ago on ubuntu-devel
<jsgotangco> that's not the case for hoary...
<jsgotangco> hmmm so its a breezy thing...
* Burgundavia is going to return a movie, back in about 15
<jsgotangco> harry potter?
<jsgotangco> hehe
<jsgotangco> oh home video
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I think that the world readable is a longtime unix thing
<dabaR> hey, um, just if you have time, check this out.
<dabaR> http://dabar.selfip.org/synaptic.html
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: no way
<Burgundavia> dabaR, cool. Unfortunately the repo dialog is going to be totally redesigned for dapper
<dabaR> so you told me.
<dabaR> that is a good thing.
<Burgundavia> mdke, ping
<dabaR> k, later.
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, it is
<Burgundavia> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-October/012404.html
<Burgundavia> specifically --> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-October/012406.html
<jsgotangco> sucks
<jsgotangco> i'll just edit sshd_config then
<Burgundavia> salut robitaille 
<robitaille> bonsoir Burgundavia 
<jsgotangco> hello robitaille 
<robitaille> Hi jsgotangco 
<Burgundavia> anybody know where i can find this background?
<Burgundavia> http://davyd.ucc.asn.au/images/af/af-shot1.png
<Burgundavia> the archive doesn't appear to have it anymore
<robitaille> which month is it?  http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/u/  seems to have debs of all the months
<Burgundavia> those are not the images
<Burgundavia> I just checked
<robitaille> Burgundavia,  are you sure? I have downloaded the December file, and there are in there 2 jpg for that month; they are background 1600x1200 jpgs
<robitaille> that background looks so familiar.  It  must have been one of the months...
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  is it worth filing  a bug about a mistake in the default html for firefox in Edubuntu?  or these static start html are going the way of the dodo for dapper?
<Burgundavia> ah, it is march
<Burgundavia> the static html is going away
<Burgundavia> for start.ubuntu.com
<robitaille> but start.ubuntu.com is a general ubuntu page.  you probably want something a lot more specific (and maybe kid friendly) for Edubuntu
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> but that is an edubuntu decision
<Burgundavia> and kubuntu one
<robitaille> thus back to my original question to jsgotangco  since he was the doc guy for edubuntu :)
<Burgundavia> ah, I misread it, sorry
<Burgundavia> robitaille, you updated your wiki page with for your laptop yet?
* Burgundavia feels like JaneW
<robitaille> I started.  I have updated the top LaptopTesting Page.  but haven't entered any dapper details yet in my subpage.  I was hoping to do it later tonight.  I have spent part of the day testing edubuntu with the kids :)
<Burgundavia> I woke up at 5pm
<jsgotangco> same here i just downloaded dapper last night but haven't started installing
<robitaille> Burgundavia,   you know, sometimes I used to that.  Then I got married :)   I got up at 8:15am, and that was a very late morning for me :)
<jsgotangco> its good practice to clean up the page early though
<jsgotangco> i was surprised to see a milestone this early too
<Burgundavia> that was the goal
<Burgundavia> get one out as soon as possibly
<Burgundavia> s/y/e
<jsgotangco> i'm in irssi via ssh i can't scroll at all
<Burgundavia> I haven't seen my gf all weekend, which is why I have been sleeping a lot
<jsgotangco> ok so girlfriends are a bane to sane sleeping habits
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  I was asking if you want a bug report for a small mistake in the static html for firefox in Edubuntu
<jsgotangco> robitaille: sure
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, i wish to discuss a small point regarding server guide, shall we ?
<jsgotangco> bhuvan: sure let me move to a saner chat client...
<jsgotangco> ok that's better :)
<bhuvan> fine
<bhuvan> can we make server guide part of kubuntu-docs too ?
<jsgotangco> i'm sorry i haven't been able to do the minutes of the past meeting yet; i've been busy with some stuff especially with my upcoming talk in seoul
<bhuvan> ok
<jsgotangco> bhuvan, sure its just a matter of inclusion to the package...
<bhuvan> ok, the reason is .. jjesse raised this point
<jsgotangco> if you remember, there was a discussion about -common
<jsgotangco> but that needs a lot of discussion
<bhuvan> ok
<jsgotangco> well in my opinion, a server guide has little need of gui tools unless the product has server gui tools
<bhuvan> true
<Burgundavia> ubuntu-server has no gui tools and never will
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia, its about people whou would like to use say Kubuntu for a server
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> but I think we should target our server guide at ubuntu-server
* jsgotangco thinks so too
<bhuvan> Burgundavia, true. but, it should not restrict the kubuntu user who wish to install a server application
<Burgundavia> that is fine
<Burgundavia> they can install by commandline
<jsgotangco> i think its best to make the server guide as generic as possible
<bhuvan> yeah, though we may provide instructions about other package manager in the beginning..
<jsgotangco> the most generic you can get is via cli
<Burgundavia> maybe we shoudl move the server guide to a top level folder of its own?
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, talking about gui package management on in a serverguide is a bad thing
<jsgotangco> unless you're RedHat
<bhuvan> yeah!
<Burgundavia> hence we talk about aptitude, apt-get, etc.
<bhuvan> but, i've planned to give an introduction about all package manage in the beginning
<Burgundavia> that is a bad thing, IMHO
<bhuvan> i'll use apt-get through out the document
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> if you even mention say synaptic
<Burgundavia> why do you need to bother the user with talking about synaptic at the start if you use apt-get throughout?
<jsgotangco> and the user decides to get it
<jsgotangco> he'll be downloading the whole desktop again
<bhuvan> also think this. what if he's installing a server application, say apache on the existing desktop (kubuntu or ubuntu) ?
<bhuvan> he may feel free to use either synaptic/apt-get, its upto him
<Burgundavia> so?
<bhuvan> so, introduction about available packages may help 
<Burgundavia> talking about gui package stuff is a recipe for bad things
<bhuvan> i'm not going to use synaptic/adept though in my document. i'm using apt-get
<Burgundavia> and if they know how to install apache, they should already know how to use synaptic
<bhuvan> Burgundavia, i understand
<Burgundavia> hence we don't need to talk about it
<jsgotangco> i think the main goal here is to make a server guide that is very friendly just like our starter guide
<jsgotangco> but friendly meaning its cli-friendly and not complicated
<Burgundavia> and friendly means we don't bait and switch
* Burgundavia votes for dapper+1 to be called  Traumatized
<Burgundavia> 
<Burgundavia> Tenrec 
<jsgotangco> ?
<Madpilot> Traumatized Tapir?
<Madpilot> ...interesting... Creative Commons doesn't seem to have a simple CC-SA license - only CC-BY-SA or full Public Domain... too bad
<Burgundavia> how about Oblivious Ocelet?
<Burgundavia> Tanked Terrapin?
<Burgundavia> Xenophobic Xenu?
<Madpilot> wtf is a Xenu?
<Burgundavia> think I should remove obiviously bad names?
<Madpilot> "Xenu" would be a bad idea - 15 seconds of Googling shows that it's got something to do with Scientology
<Burgundavia> Xebu, typo on my part
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, you still have that java app floating around/
<Burgundavia> ?
<Burgundavia> the one that named GW something funny?
<Madpilot> I think I've got a version of it, yeah
<Madpilot> want to create a "name the next Ubuntu" version?
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> too bad java is non-free
<Burgundavia> could we do a version with js
<Burgundavia> ?
<jsgotangco> for?
<Burgundavia> random fun
<jsgotangco> my cellphone uses java more than my computer
<Burgundavia> the only java I have installed is the free stuff
<Burgundavia> which incidentally doesn't run the only other java I have on my computer, a game I downloaded
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: a pure-JavaScript version might be possible
<jsgotangco> its more lucrative to do java on mobile phones now compared to desktop i guess
<Madpilot> but it's made harder by the fact that the Ubuntu names always alliterate
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what sort of policy do we want to have for people joining the LP team but have not generated useful work for us?
<jsgotangco> good question
<jsgotangco> well we did kick out 1 or 2 people i believe
<Burgundavia> and the latest two I have not approved
<jsgotangco> oh approval is easy
<jsgotangco> deactivating is not
<Burgundavia> shall I raise it on the mailing list
<jsgotangco> since the team is now tied up with malone, it becomes a bit complicated
<Burgundavia> I think it should be a group decision
<jsgotangco> soon it'll become tied up with a package and a supermirror
<Burgundavia> and wiki team is likely going to be tied to greater privs on the wiki as well
<jsgotangco> oh i remember~
* jsgotangco should send the minutes later
<jsgotangco> we talked about the lp team during the meeting
<Burgundavia> excellnt
<Burgundavia> I was too tired to come, sorry
<jsgotangco> other people were there like Riddell , jbailey, ogra, etc.
<jsgotangco> they suggested that ubuntu-doc members should comprise approved ubuntu-members
<jsgotangco> so basically if an ubuntu-member wants to join the doc, it'll be easier
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> so they have to become a member before they can become a member of ubuntu-doc?
<jsgotangco> its not really whitelisting, but its really safe to add to commit access and lp for ubuntu-members rather than those who aren't
<jsgotangco> basically
<jsgotangco> especially with commit privs
<Burgundavia> ok, that seems fair
<jsgotangco> it needs fleshing out the details though
<jsgotangco> but we have a higher chance of better performance with an ubuntu-member rather than not
<jsgotangco> (although it does leave out those who aren't into membership)
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> but that is not a big deal I think
<Burgundavia> but should they have to produce something for us before they are allowed to join?
<jsgotangco> well come to think of it, any person who contributes to doc can easily be a member
<jsgotangco> like bhuvan for example
<Burgundavia> yes
<jsgotangco> so if he's already an ubuntu-member, we can just easily add him to -doc
<jsgotangco> and it makes it easier to justify to elmo svn access
<jsgotangco> because a.) he's approved
<jsgotangco> b.) he's signed the CoC
<Burgundavia> but several of the pending members have not producing anything useful for the team that I can see
<jsgotangco> we can probably tell them to contribute something first...
<Burgundavia> in other words, should applying for membership and being an ubuntu-member be enough to give you membership to ubuntu-doc?
<jsgotangco> well ok that's a good question
<jsgotangco> how does MOTU do it?
<Burgundavia> anyboyd can upload to REVU
<Burgundavia> to become a member of MOTU, you need technical board approval
<Burgundavia> they are not really a valid example in this case
<Burgundavia> but no other team is really big enough yet
<Burgundavia> art is too new, marketing doesn't exist, nun is dead
<Burgundavia> wiki is too new
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> i don't want to see our position as unique as with other teams but we do have certain upload privs which needs consideration
<Burgundavia> yes
<bhuvan> .. should i've to apply for ubuntu membership ?
<Burgundavia> bhuvan, you have enough, IMHO, to apply for ubuntu-membership now
<jsgotangco> yes
<Burgundavia> and the next CC meeting to 2 days from now
<bhuvan> ok. i'll add my name for membership then
<bhuvan> yeah
<Burgundavia> I like the idea of asking people to produce something before they ask for membership to ubuntu-docs
<Burgundavia> just as we have been doing up until now
<jsgotangco> well yes, it doesn't change anything
<Burgundavia> yes, it just codifies what is there
<Burgundavia> in case either of us drop off the planet
<jsgotangco> imo, membership is just an incentive/reward for contribution
* jsgotangco has no idea who is Dmitri Alenitchev
<Burgundavia> nor do I
<Burgundavia> night
<Madpilot> do programs in Universe get bug-reported to Launchpad or Bugzilla.u.c?
<jjesse> what was the command to build the desktop guide again, left that email at home :(
<bhuvan> dg-C ?
<bhuvan> i meant 'make dg-C'
<jsgotangco> hello
<jjesse> thanks bhuvan 
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> morning =)
* jsgotangco yawns
<bhuvan> jjesse, ok
<bhuvan> jsgotangco, when're you leaving to seoul ? how long you'll be in seoul ?
<Belutz> jsgotangco, hi
<jsgotangco> just 4 days
<jsgotangco> hey Belutz how's things?
<Belutz> i got flu :(
<jsgotangco> Belutz: i pray its not bird flu :P
<Belutz> jsgotangco, no it's not :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<bhuvan> night all
<Belutz> hmm, the debian conference commitee could give 30 minutes slot
<jsgotangco> haha dude i can't fly with that short notice
<Belutz> ok :)
<jsgotangco> Belutz: hey you can speak in behalf of ubuntu anyways
<Belutz> maybe next time :)
<Belutz> hmm, i'm not ready yet
<jsgotangco> when will that be?
<jsgotangco> heh
<Belutz> after, i'm no longer a newbie :-)
<jsgotangco> im going back later
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> re
<jsgotangco> good night
* mdke nudges Riddell about http://kubuntu.org/documentation.php
* Riddell can't get a response from help.ubuntu.com
<mdke> gah
<mdke> Riddell, you have to be patient
<Riddell> ah yes, just very slow
<Riddell> the stylesheets on e.g. http://help.ubuntu.com/kde/krelease-notes/C/index.html don't really work
<Riddell> well, they arn't there
<Riddell> can you update it use those three docs from trunk?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> Riddell, i used a kde stylesheet for those tho, was it a different one?
<Riddell> mdke: I think you used the one sean made up, in trunk we're now using the ones from KDE docs
<mdke> i used one which was packaged in kdelibs-data
<mdke> Riddell, anyhow when I get home I'll look at it
<mdke> Riddell, yo?
<Riddell> mdke: hmm?
<mdke> Riddell, can you walk me through what is going down with the -html and -web targets in the Makefile? last time I looked there was just -web
<Riddell> mdke: -web is for the web, -html is offline html and normal target is offline .bz2 of html
<mdke> Riddell, ok so you have changed the stylesheets for -web and added -html?
<Riddell> yes
<mdke> Riddell, ok, and how does -html work? i see it uses meinproc rather than xslproc, and i don't see the stylesheets
<Riddell> mdke: it uses the default KDE stylesheet
<mdke> Riddell, does meinproc just know that automatically?
<Riddell> mdke: seems to yes
<mdke> right
<mdke> we'll have to update some of the docs to tell people to install meinproc
<mdke> it's not on my system
<Riddell> it should be in the package build-deps
<mdke> Riddell, i don't see that package
<Riddell> kubuntu-docs
<mdke> ah i see
<Riddell> what I havn't worked out is how i18n works
<mdke> ok
<mdke> Riddell, fire away
<Riddell> umm, nothing to fire, I don't know how it works in ubuntu-docs
<mdke> Riddell, we make pot file templates from the xml, upload them to rosetta, download the po files, change them back to xml
<mdke> i would suggest using the same system for (k)(ed)ubuntu l10n
<Riddell> when are they uploaded and when are they downloaded?
<Riddell> and who's going to set this up for dapper?
<mdke> Riddell, we upload them after string freeze, and download them before the translation freeze. And I intend to do an update for breezy too
<mdke> Riddell, i can do it
<Riddell> aah
<Riddell> where do the translations go?  into ubuntu-docs?
<mdke> Riddell, yes, although jbailey wanted to talk about language-packs. But now he's no longer with us, I'm thinking that won't happen
<Riddell> I think dholbach will do it
<Riddell> you just ship the .xml file, doesn't that take a long time to covert to HTML when viewing?
<mdke> it will be very difficult I think
<mdke> Riddell, in gnome yelp is the viewer, it reads xml directly. although it is a bit sluggish
<mdke> brb
<mdke> back
<mdke> jjesse, around?
<mdke> damn you!
#ubuntu-doc 2005-11-27
<jsgotangco> hiya
<mdke> lo
<jsgotangco> hey mdke how's things?
<mdke> jsgotangco, busy, but fine. Yourself?
<jsgotangco> cramming a bit
* jsgotangco is flying to seoul next week for a talk
<jjesse> did my last message go through?
<jjesse> mdke: were you looking for me yesterdya/
<jjesse> ?
<mdke> jjesse, yes: can you remove the serverguide in the kubuntu folder? it is present in the generic folder
<jjesse> sure
<mdke> i couldn't figure out how to remove it, you seem to have added it in a strange way that I am not familiar with
<jjesse> i just did a svn copy /generic/serverguide to /kubuntu/serverguide
<jjesse> is that the right way?
<mdke> it should be, but it has done something weird
<mdke> see if svn rm works
<mdke> for me, it removed it, but then did something screwy with the version control and I couldnt' commit it
<jjesse> Deleting       serverguide
<jjesse> svn: Commit succeeded, but other errors follow:
<jjesse> svn: Error bumping revisions post-commit (details follow):
<jjesse> svn: Working copy '/home/jjesse/ubuntu-docs/repos/trunk/kubuntu' is missing or not locked
<jjesse> svn: Your commit message was left in a temporary file:
<jjesse> svn:    '/home/jjesse/ubuntu-docs/repos/trunk/kubuntu/serverguide/svn-commit.tmp'
<jjesse> is that what you were getting?
<mdke> no, that looks even worse
<mdke> :)
<mdke> i get this: http://pastebin.com/436175
<mdke> the last line appears to be the problem
<mdke> then this if I do "svn status"
<mdke> matt@kalliope:~/ubuntu/ubuntu-docs/trunk/kubuntu$ svn status
<mdke> X      serverguide
<mdke> Performing status on external item at 'serverguide'
<mdke> D      serverguide
<mdke> etc
<mdke> jjesse, you just removed generic/serverguide
<mdke> that is bad
<jjesse> doh i didn't mean to 
<mdke> let's revert that
<jjesse> ok
<jsgotangco> horay
<mdke> who is going to revert it?
<mdke> ok i'm doing it
<mdke> no one else do it at the same time :D
<jjesse> sorry had several work calls :(
<mdke> ok i think i've fixed the serverguide thing
<mdke> seems you added an external property
<mdke> no idea what that is
<mdke> like a symlink for svn I guess
<jjesse> mdke: i have no clue how i did it
<jjesse> mdke: i thought i just did a svn copy
<mdke> oh well
<mdke> jjesse, that switching guide doesn't validate.
<mdke> sounds like a cool idea
<jjesse> mdke: i know its not done yet and i didn't have the right tools installed as i recently redid my installation
<jjesse> so i'm working on validating/finishing it
<mdke> cool
<mdke> i just wanted to check it out :p
<mdke> lemme check the online version
<jjesse> grin the online version needs some changes
<jjesse> like removing our favorite repository :)
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> careful about that marillat stuff :)
<jjesse> the only thing that is not in multiverse these days is w32codecs
<mdke> so does kde use gstreamer too?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> it'll completely ditch arts by dapper i believe
<mdke> ah
<mdke> that is cool that they use the same thing
<mdke> although i think arts is unrelated
<mdke> that's the sound server isn't it?
<jjesse> anyone here install the recent flight test?
<mdke> no, i downloaded it yesterday, i guess i'll install it tonight
<jjesse> i did over the weekend and had some problems on the kubuntu side
<jsgotangco> i just installed it a few hours ago
<jsgotangco> nothing much chnaged
<jsgotangco> really
<jsgotangco> except some pretty obvious gnome changes
* jsgotangco makes mental note to update his wiki page later
<mdke> my partitioning is a total mess
<mdke> i may need to do a total reinstall :/
<jsgotangco> same here
<jsgotangco> i just removed everything
<jjesse> heck that's why i reinstalled, i was running dapper and kde 3.5 rc1 and was having issues
* jsgotangco just got tired of keeping windows
<jjesse> i still have to have windows for work :(
<jsgotangco> good thing 85% of workstations at my work run on linux
<jjesse> i'm a windows network administrator
<mdke> http://mdke.org/images/thinkpad.png
<mdke> that is my hard disk
<mdke> :/
<jsgotangco> jjesse: i used to be one myself
<jjesse> sounds like something someone would say when they got over a disease
<mdke> rob1 is one now too :)
<jsgotangco> mdke: mine is just clean dapper now
<mdke> jsgotangco, hard core!
<mdke> i need a breezy for mine
* jsgotangco got a new desktop where he can do his stable work
<mdke> ah cool
<jsgotangco> mdke: do you know any wiki page where we hvae definite dapper roadmap/changes?
<jsgotangco> or even in lp?
* jsgotangco will be presenting in a week
<mdke> there are a couple of wiki pages
<mdke> and of course, you can check the approved specs
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperGoals
<mdke> that page has a list of the specs
<jsgotangco> even if its approved, it doesn't mean its going to get into dapper
<jsgotangco> the LSB thing isn't even going to happen really
<mdke> well the specs on that page should go in
<jsgotangco> now always, but hopefully
<mdke> yeah
<jsgotangco> what the hell i tried translating the website in korea that mentioned my name and it said i'm into alcohol and debauchery from the google translation
<jsgotangco> Philippines  	58,500
<mdke> lol
<mdke> sounds fair enough
<jsgotangco> wow
<mdke> you need a lawyer
<jsgotangco> mdke: http://www.softexpo.or.kr/kr/conference/announcer.jsp
<mdke> jsgotangco, where is the translation?
<jsgotangco> wait let me do it again
<jjesse> that's intereseting
<jsgotangco> "also the knife queue is distant, it  participated to the alcoholic beverage development which sprouts."
<mdke> lol
<mdke> you have to ask em what it really means
<jsgotangco> great so we're actually brewing moonshine over here
* jsgotangco remembers that pepsi max commercial
<mdke> was bhuvan's commit access discussed at the last meeting?
<mdke> jjesse, ping?
<jjesse> mdke: ping
<jjesse> i though commit access was talked about
<mdke> pong
<mdke> jjesse, wanted to ask you about the removing of the k-
<jjesse> we talked about making people who wanted commit needed to either be a part of ubuntu-members or at least sign th CoC
<jjesse> mdke: sure what's up?
<mdke> ah cool
<mdke> jjesse, you've updated some of the Makefile, but there is lots more to change. Also, the kubuntu directory still has the k- folders!
<jjesse> did i screw svn up again ? <ducks>
<mdke> no, i think it is ok
<mdke> you probably just did an "svn copy" instead of "svn mv" right?
<jjesse> mdke yes i did, cna i then do a svn delete?
<mdke> yep
<jjesse> ok will do
<jjesse> i didn't know what to do for the web stuff, just follow the changes i made for xml?
<mdke> I'll do the Makefile, then you can look at the commit email and see what I've changed
<jjesse> cool
<jjesse> i'm slowly learning
<mdke> :)
<mdke> there is a good guide, although tbh I haven't read it either
<mdke> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/svn-book.html
<jjesse> interseting
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> now, how about commit access
<bhuvan> as per jsgotangco, after becoming a member, getting commit access wont be an issue
<mdke> we need to request you to be added
<mdke> do you have a gpg key?
<bhuvan> yeah, i do have already in launchpad
<mdke> good
<mdke> what username do you want?
<bhuvan> i've also signed the coc, fwiw
<bhuvan> username: bhuvan
<mdke> good thanks
<mdke> i'll sort it out then
<bhuvan> ok, thankx
<mdke> elmo will mail you when he has arranged your access
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> he will mail you the password, encrypted with your key
<bhuvan> ok
<mdke> thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-20
<theCore> LaserJock, have committed any of my patches yet? 
<theCore> have you*
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> let me go have a look
<LaserJock> just the one for the appendix?
<LaserJock> or also the basic.xml one
<theCore> both
<LaserJock> oh my, I'm really behind
<theCore> got them?
<LaserJock> yeah
<theCore> are they okay?
<LaserJock> me?
<theCore> yes
<LaserJock> well, I'm sick, tired, and overworked :-)
<theCore> no patches :p
<theCore> oh, well I sympathize with you
<theCore> I am buried by homework
<theCore> Science is easy 
<theCore> isn't
<theCore> LaserJock, by the way, do you program able to find derivative of experimental data
<theCore> ?
<LaserJock> do I know of a program that will calculate the derivative of experimental data?
<theCore> Yes
<LaserJock> well, you could use python
<LaserJock> do you need it analytically or numerically?
<theCore> numerically
<theCore> I need to find the equivalence point of a acid-base titration
<LaserJock> ah
<theCore> I did it in Gnumeric, but it isn't super
<LaserJock> yeah
<theCore> and then exporting everything to LaTeX after, won't be a lot of fun
<LaserJock> hi xopher :-)
<xopher> Hi! I got this wiki-guide ready (how to build an up to date nvidia-glx for ubuntu) - now, how do I get it into the wiki? 
<xopher> hehe
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: you around?
<xopher> Ah, it was too easy. 
<theCore> xopher, copy-and-paste? :)
<xopher> heh, yeah ;)
<xopher> Could someone check if it looks even half-decent? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildYourOwnNvidiaGlx
<xopher> Im open to suggestions, this is the first time Ive edited a wiki so ;)
<xopher> um, well you all seem to be asleep, as should I. Its almost 5am here. Good night all!
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: am now
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I wondered if you would know about xopher's question
<xopher> ..Which I eventually figured out, wasn't that hard, heh. I was looking for a 'send this out to the wiki'-button, obviously the answer was much simpler.
<LaserJock> xopher: where did you put it?
<xopher> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildYourOwnNvidiaGlx
<LaserJock> hmm, I was thinking it might go on help.ubuntu.com/community/
<LaserJock> but I'm not sure
<theCore> xopher, oh, you already correct my mistake ;)
<theCore> corrected*
<xopher> ;)
<theCore> *sigh* I'm too tired
<xopher> As am I. Now Ill hit the sack for real. Good night!
<theCore> LaserJock, so, how Python (or something else) to calculate the derivative of experimental data?
<theCore> how could I use*
<theCore> any ideas?
<LaserJock> theCore: well, I'm pretty sure you could use scipy
<theCore> yeah, I saw scipy, but I ain't sure if it would be better than Gnumeric  
<theCore> anyway, thanks again
<LaserJock> well, they are totally different
<theCore> LaserJock, by the way, does the patches were okay?
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm committing them as we speak
<theCore> cool
* theCore svn up
<theCore> okay, not yet
* theCore watch -n 10 svn up
<theCore> :)
<LaserJock> heh
<theCore> ah1
<LaserJock> it's there
<theCore> got it
<theCore> now, I should do more
<Burgundavia> anybody got a dapper system up?
<LaserJock> mine's not on
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Server
<Burgundavia> doesn't help
<Burgundavia> neither of you
<LaserJock> :(
<Burgundavia> :)
<LaserJock> Corey hates us :/
<Burgundavia> no, I love you all
<Burgundavia> you're just useless :)
<theCore> Burgundavia, I could bring one alive
<Burgundavia> got it
<theCore> why you need a Dapper system?
<LaserJock> theCore: see #ubuntu-motu
<theCore> ah
<Burgundavia> for da book
<LaserJock> working on updates?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> painful character counting
<theCore> Burgundavia, character counting?
<tonyyarusso> I don't think I want to know
<Burgundavia> because the book is not going back through the editing process, any changes need to remain within the existing formatting
<Burgundavia> so I have to count characters
<theCore> what about wc?
<theCore> okay
<Burgundavia> it is more a matter of thinking around the problem
<LaserJock> mhm
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Sounds like when I try to edit my "What is Ubuntu" handout
<Burgundavia> nah, this is worse
<theCore> is in DocBook or .doc?
<Burgundavia> I have no idea what it is actually laid out in
<Burgundavia> I am working of a printed copy
<Burgundavia> xopher: your howto is on the wrong wiki
<nixternal> hiya doc people
<LaserJock> hiya nixternal 
<nixternal> wasabi
<LaserJock> I don't think he's in here :-)
<nixternal> heh
<theCore> <-- off for tonight
<LaserJock> cya, thanks for the patches
<theCore> np
<nixternal> ya, i seen the patches get applied...looked pretty signifigant...probably need to repring out my guide ;)
<LaserJock> bah
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: so is this Linux Mint thing going anywhere?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock: no idea. I would expect it to die out
<LaserJock> kinda interesting to see the spectrum from Linux Mint to gNewSense
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: How is Linux Mint possible?
<Burgundavia> either they are breaking the law or irish law is different
<Burgundavia> I suspec that former
<tonyyarusso> Ah
<tonyyarusso> That was my thought too, but I wasn't sure if I was missing something
<Burgundavia> some of it depends on what they ship
<Burgundavia> if they are shipping w32codecs, that is an issue
<tonyyarusso> What about if they were based in Sweden?  I think they have very few restrictions.
<Burgundavia> w32codecs is illegal is any country that has signed Berne
<Burgundavia> mdke_: you around yet?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AutomatixInstallationScript?highlight=%285.04%29 <-- thoughts?
<Madpilot> there's a EasyUbuntu page somewhere too
<Madpilot> kill them both, redirect to WhyInstallScriptsSuck ;)
<Burgundavia> check out automatix now
<Madpilot> heh. you should redirect the old AutomatixInstallationScript page there, too
<Burgundavia> done
<LaserJock> ohhh, you're gonna make some people mad :-)
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> I wonder if I should ACL those pages
<LaserJock> well, it would be nice to have a point by point, this is what Automatix is trying to do, this is how to do it the right way
<Burgundavia> I added two, but I am not certain what else it does
<Madpilot> break things?
<LaserJock> well, it used to install Opera and Realplayer
<Madpilot> cause flamewars and sulking?
<LaserJock> http://getautomatix.com/wiki/index.php?title=Software_and_Tweaks
<Burgundavia> are we nuking catdoc from docs?
<LaserJock> oh man, it installs beagle!
<LaserJock> I gotta get it!
<Burgundavia> it duplicates so much from add/remove it isn't funny
<LaserJock> exactly
<LaserJock> that's what I want to get to people
<LaserJock> not only does it break things
<LaserJock> it's obsolete
<crimsun> it may be nice to put a link near the top of the page to instructions for creating and submitting Ubuntu specs
<Burgundavia> wow, I love how much easier each version of Ubuntu becomes
<Burgundavia> I am nuking huges amounts of hoary only docs
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, CatDoc stuff should be moved - or nuked, if it's obselete
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> there is lots on teh wiki that has not been touched for a good long time
<Burgundavia> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization/ <-- nuke and move  /6.06 into its place?
<mdke> Burgundavia: I am now around
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, Gmail ad creepiness: when I just got an email from the wiki about your RestrictedFormats edit, the text ad at the top was for Userful...
<Burgundavia> weird
<Burgundavia> forward it to me?
<Burgundavia> mdke: I had something to ask you
<Burgundavia> but right now I am cleaning up the help wiki, via the sword
<mdke> that automatix stuff is just going to increase tensions between who is seen to be on the side of the "official" wiki community and the forum, elsewhere. I think you should clearly set out what automatix is, the problems behind it, and link to it for users that want to use it anyway, without using words like "highly dangerous"
<mdke> Burgundavia: what do you want to ask? I won't be around for long
<Burgundavia> mdke: I have forgotten
<mdke> ah
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, gmail just had "Turn 1 PC into 10 - www.Userful.com - Multiple users share a single computer simultaneously." as the ad
<Burgundavia> I will just delete teh automatix page then
<Burgundavia> don
<Burgundavia> don't have time or the inclintation to do it justice
<mdke> then revert it and ask someone else to
<mdke> you can't just delete pages others have written, it's nasty
<mdke> insert a warning at the top asking someone to document its issues
<Burgundavia> ok
<mdke> who is good at that stuff? Seveas maybe
<Burgundavia> he would be good
<Burgundavia> Seveas: ping (ignore the one in -locoteams)
<Burgundavia> well, I have run riot this evening
<mdke> heh
<mdke> you mentioned yesterday you saw some problems with the wiki
<mdke> what were they?
<Burgundavia> I hate how mailman/firefox treat all the admindb logins as one page
<Burgundavia> mostly neglect
* mdke nods
<mdke> (at both)
<Burgundavia> given I admin 5 mailing lists, it gets annoying
<mdke> me too.
<mdke> if you have any ideas to help us get the wiki more self-maintaining, post to -doc and we'll see what we can do
<Burgundavia> mostly it is more eyeballs
<Burgundavia> we need to draw the contributors in
<Burgundavia> what is really annoying is that the -devel moderator password is autogenned crap
<Ubugtu> New bug: #72526 in ubuntu-docs "One letter is missing in a sentence" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/72526
<tonyyserver> Looks like some documentation is not right.
<tonyyserver> Now to pull of the address
<tonyyserver> https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/ubuntu/installation-guide/i386/module-details.html#partman-crypto
<tonyyserver> That doc seems to be in error - I see no such option in the installer.
<tonyyserver> Anybody know anything about that?
<Madpilot> tonyyserver, that might be in the text-only installer on the alternative CD?
<tonyyserver> Madpilot: That's what I'm using.
<tonyyserver> The option in the "use as" menu simply doesn't exist.
<Madpilot> strange. 
<tonyyserver> Indeed.
<tonyyserver> That would have been really cool too.
<tonyyserver> What do we do from here?  File a bug in the installer?  Edit the documentation?  Stand around scratching our heads honking like the lost penguin in Santa Claus is Coming to Town?
<Madpilot> start by asking on the docteam ML, I guess, or on -devel. Odd that we've got a nice chunk of docs for something that doesn't seem to exist...
<tonyyserver> Send to doc, CC devel perhaps?
<Madpilot> can't hurt
<tonyyserver> Will do.  Not tonight though, since I have no e-mail client up and running now ;)
<xopher> Burgundavia, is this correct: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildYourOwnNvidiaGlx
<xopher> Could you quickly explain to me what the differences are between help.ubuntu.com and wiki.ubuntu.org ?
<Seveas> Burgundavia, pong
<xopher> Burgwork, are you here? if so could you answer my question please.
<Burgwork> xopher: yep, but busy
<Burgwork> just a sec
<xopher> great
<Burgwork> xopher: wiki is for teh community and developers
<Burgwork> internal Ubuntu communication
<Burgwork> help is strictly for help
<Burgwork> xopher: ^
<xopher> Right, so it shouldnt be in help.ubuntu.com either then?
<xopher> 04:55 xopher https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildYourOwnNvidiaGlx | 05:45 Burgundavia xopher: your howto is on the wrong wiki
<Burgwork> xopher: yep
<xopher> So where should I put it?
<xopher> Im a bit lost with all the wikis still ;)
<Burgwork> help
<Burgwork> it is a help document
<xopher> 14:36 xopher Burgundavia, is this correct: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildYourOwnNvidiaGlx <- so this is right now?
<xopher> Sorry for being such an idiot :D
<xopher> Allright, I deleted it from wiki.ubuntu.com
<mdke> xopher: yeah, that's right. thanks for the contribution. btw, did you check whether there is already some material on that subject on the help wiki?
<xopher> I made a search and didnt find anything like it yeah
<mdke> I think there is probably already one or more page with similar material, you should incorporate your material into that, rather than adding a new one
<mdke> ah, maybe there isn't then. You could make a link on the other nvidia related pages then
<mdke> also, can you include in the introduction some examples of when someone might want to use that procedure?
<xopher> Well I made a search on nvidia and the closest match is BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia - which walks you through the installing process if the binary file.
<xopher> Ill do that yeah
<xopher> mdke, how do I link it to other nvidia related pages? Or do I just add links at the bottom of the page? 
<mdke> sure, in the introduction or the bottom, whichever is appropriate
<mdke> bbl
<xopher> right, thanks for the input, and heh, support ;)
<mdke> Burgwork: we could do a basic template to include in pages like that automatix one saying something like "Unsupported - this page may contain information which is not supported by the Ubuntu developers and may damage your system."
<Burgwork> an idea, but I think we need to discourage it a bit more strongly than that
<mdke> that is pretty strong, tbh
<mdke> it would be sort of making a start on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance?action=show
<Burgwork> yep
<LaserJock> yeah, this whole "how official is official?" kind of thing is tough
<mdke> bbl again
<Burgwork> LaserJock: the more people we bring into helping us, the better we are off
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> also depends on the quality of the work the "more people" bring :-)
<Burgwork> yes
<Burgwork> it boils down to this: canonical needs to hire a documentation maintainer
<Burgwork> soembody who doesn't write a lot, mostly works with teh community
<LaserJock> Burgwork: sure, I'm just not sure if that's gonna happen
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> we also need somebody willing and able to do it
<LaserJock> I'm a little wary of "things aren't going so well, the solution is for Canonical to hire somebody"
<Burgwork> it is the one area they currently have nobody
<LaserJock> maybe it's true, I just don't know
<LaserJock> true
<LaserJock> hmm, you would think documentation would be a good area too
<LaserJock> as that is a first line of defense in support I suppose
<Burgwork> the person would need to work with support quite a lot
<dsas> I thought I read somewhere the Canonical support people were starting to write documentation "papers"
<LaserJock> I would imagine they would
<dsas> I can't remember where I read that mind.
<Burgwork> jeff bailey was talking about a kb
<mdke> yeah, that's right
<mdke> maybe some non free material too
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-21
<mdke_> morns
<Ubugtu> New bug: #72680 in ubuntu-doc "Serverguide - samba instructs missing components" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/72680
<mdke_> morning lloydinho 
<lloydinho> good morning, mdke_
<user2349> hi, ive just made a change to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ without reading "GettingStarted" and can not delete it, what to do?
<nixternal> hiya jjesse 
<jenda> mdke_: ping
<mdke_> jenda: hi
<jenda> allo :)
<jenda> Wanted to ask if you're the guy to talk to regarding u.c/community/participate
<mdke_> I have access, if that's what you mean. The best way is to open a bug
<jenda> ok, good idea.
<jenda> I wanted to ask if the Marketing Team could be mentioned in the advocacy section, since it's what it's for.
<jenda> And it seems it is capable or nearly capable of accomodating new people and pointing them where to help with advocacy.
<mdke_> you might want to talk to lloydinho too, he has developed a comprehensive document dealing with how to participate in the community
<jenda> I think I saw.
<jenda> I'll file the bug tomorrow, and see what happens. It's real late now.
<mdke_> fine
<jenda> thx, mdke_ 
<jenda> (and good night)
<mdke_> good night
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-22
<mdke_> morning
<tonyyarusso> mdke_: You know, don't take this the wrong way, but sometimes I hate you.
<tonyyarusso> Every day you come in here and say that, and remind me how late it's gotten and that I really should be in bed, but aren't.
<tonyyarusso> ;)
<mdke_> :)
<nixternal> ditto! ;)
<Burgundavia> indeed
<mdke_> I overslept too
<tonyyarusso> Man...
<tonyyarusso> I haven't gotten anywhere on this assignment yet
* tonyyarusso sighs
<mdke_> Burgundavia: minions eh, nice
<Burgundavia> mdke_: I try
* mdke_ notes that Burgundavia's news email got caught in his spam folder
<Burgundavia> the UWN?
<mdke_> yeah
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Madpilot> Burgundavia, slipping ads fro Cia1is into the UWN now? ;)
<Mithrandir> mdke_: regarding your "Documentation String Freeze Exception Procedure"; those strings are all updated in stable release updates, right?
<nixternal> mdke_: i made a change to that fridge article -- s/Ubuntu/Linux - thanks for the hacking on it
<Burgwork> mdke_: http://bundlebuggy.aaronbentley.com/
<mdke_> nixternal: s/Ubuntu/Linux?
<mdke_> Mithrandir: I'll send you a full explanation by email of the problem
<jjesse> hello mdke_
<mdke_> hiya jjesse 
<mdke_> Burgwork: ?
<Burgwork> mdke_: http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrRequestPatchWebQueue
<mdke_> Burgwork: i haven't seen this before
<nixternal> mdke_: it had that free geek installs ubuntu on all of their machines...they install linux on all of them, but not just ubuntu
<nixternal> thats what i meant by that
<mdke_> nixternal: Jane's email said Ubuntu on all of them
<Burgwork> mdke_: it was something I cooked up last year
<Mithrandir> mdke_: I got your email which was Cc-ed to mdz; more explanation would be appreciated.
<mdke_> nixternal: that's where I got it from
<nixternal> well, she isn't correct there...i know for a fact since i volunteer my sundays to free geek
<mdke_> Mithrandir: yes, I realised that it isn't very full, i'll send a better one
<nixternal> most of the time it is SuSE linux, and the older ones will get Xubuntu or Slax
<mdke_> ah, fine.
<mdke_> she must have been mistaken
<Burgwork> nixternal: different free geeks do different things
<nixternal> they are using more and more of ubuntu though...mainly xubuntu...but not 100% in our grasp yet ;)
<nixternal> that is part of my world dominination
<Burgwork> portland used to do their own freekbox distro
<nixternal> and they still do
<mdke_> maybe the oregon one uses Ubuntu?
<Mithrandir> mdke_: cheers.
<nixternal> well we get the SuSE packages in chicgao from the oregon office
<Burgwork> possible
* mdke_ shrugs
<Burgwork> they explicitly say the laptops have ubuntu on them
<nixternal> yup
<nixternal> so we can change it to go that route maybe
<Burgwork> mdke_: anyway, the bzr people now have a web queue for approving patches to bzr
<mdke_> so you can approve the patch online and it gets automatically applied?
<mdke_> Burgwork
<mdke_> nixternal: do you want to go ahead and approve the story?
<mdke_> Mithrandir: ok mailed.
<Burgwork> mdke_: I believe so
<mdke_> Burgwork: sounds cool. How do you submit patches?
<Burgwork> via the usual method of bzr push
<mdke_> sounds interesting. How can we try it out?
<Mithrandir> mdke_: thanks, explains it well, yes.
<mdke_> great
<Mithrandir> mdke_: I need to look it tomorrow, but I think I have an idea.  I'll follow up on your mail to -doc and we'll flesh something out.
<Burgwork> mdke_: need a bzr repo and probably need to set that up
<mdke_> Burgwork: LP imports our svn repo. Is something needed to set up the web interface?
<mdke_> Mithrandir: ok, thanks
<Burgwork> mdke_: need a turbogears setup, but that is now packaged for feisty
<mdke_> hmm. We should check it out, sounds cool
<mdke_> does bzr do centralised version control nowadays?
<pygi> mdke_: bzr is by definition distributed? :)
<mdke_> pygi: I believe that's the default function yeah. But I also believe there is a feature which provides some kind of centralisation
<Mithrandir> pygi: no, it's not.  You can use checkouts.
<Mithrandir> (those still allow local commits etc, but in that case they need to be merged back again before being treated as a checkout/bound branch)
<pygi> Mithrandir: understood, but I believe it's mostly used distributed or something. Anyway, ignore e.
<mdke_> it was called "bound branches" or something
<tormod> the hoary pages now being removed from h.u.c, are they archived somewhere?
<Burgwork> currently no
<Burgwork> tormod: ^
<tormod> it's a pity if they totally disappear, isn't it?
<Burgwork> not really, given most of the docs were of questionable quality
<tormod> that might be true ;) But people wrote it, and some of it might have some information that could be used in another context. But I haven't looked at it. Great to have it cleansed out from the "visible" wiki anyway.
<mdke_> Burgwork: are you deleting stuff that could be upgraded?
<mdke_> presumably not, right?
<Burgwork> mdke_: no, just stuff that is hoary only
<mdke_> fair enough. Like stuff that can't apply to later versions?
<Burgwork> yes, like "fixing X hardware in Hoary"
<mdke_> fine, sounds good
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-23
<fumbalah> I forgot how slow dialup is
<mdke_> morning all
<bhuvan> morning mdke_
* mdke_ tries to download Riddell's sandbox from bzr, is still waiting 20 minutes later, at stage 1/4
<mpt> Wow, mdke_ for president
* mdke_ seconds that
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-24
<robotgeek> does anyone know if the meeting for friday has been confirmed?
<Burgundavia> mdke_: ping
<mdke_> Burgundavia: hi?
<Burgundavia> mdke_: hmm, now why was I pinging you...
<mdke_> you always forget!
<Burgundavia> yep
<mdke_> next time, just include your question in the ping... I'll respond when I arrive
<Burgundavia> right
<Burgundavia> :)
<mdke_> robotgeek: not yet, but no one seems to have objected. Can you make it?
<mdke_> Burgundavia: here are some options about why you might have been pinging me. The open week, the training program, spam to the mailing list, the meeting
<Burgundavia> mdke_: no, it was the website
<robotgeek> mdke_: its in 4 hours?
<Burgundavia> regarding mpts latest bug
<Burgundavia> think I should nuke the entire banner or modify it?
<mdke_> robotgeek: I had suggested 21 GMT, which is in 13 hours ish
<mdke_> Burgundavia: the employment bug?
<robotgeek> mdke_: sure, i can make it. 
<Burgundavia> no, just announced one
<mdke_> Burgundavia: ah i see it. That's one for newz I guess
<mdke_> robotgeek: cool
<robotgeek> mdke_: just ot make sure, http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converted.html?month=11&day=24&year=2006&hour=21&min=0&sec=0&p1=0&p2=407
<Burgundavia> mdke_: hmm, ya, probably
<mdke_> robotgeek: I guess? If it helps, it's now just before 08:00 GMT
<robotgeek> mdke_: cool, i'll make it :)
<robotgeek> i'll email just to add more voices
<mdke_> nice
<mdke_> yeah, more voices is good
<mdke_> I'll try and update the agenda today
<robotgeek> mdke_: in #ubuntu-meeting, or #ubuntu-doc
* mdke_ shrugs
<mdke_> #meeting?
<mdke_> if it's free
<Burgundavia> meeting
* mdke_ adds to fridge
<Burgundavia> mdke_: oh, can you proof and publish that UWN story if you get a chance?
<mdke_> yes
<robotgeek> damn, someone is editing that page :)
<robotgeek> i copied over the agenda to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeeting20060906
<mdke_> thanks.
<mdke_> Burgundavia: approved, good job, as always
<robotgeek> alrite, i will go hit the sack so that i can come back later
* mdke_ hits work
<tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: Hey - I just had a think
<Burgwork> tonyyserver: and?
<paddy> did it explode?
<LaserJock> geeze, are we having a meeting today?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: yup, in another .5 hours
<LaserJock> shoot, I might miss some of it
* robotgeek goes to get coffee
<LaserJock> I've got to run an errand real quick, hopefully I'll be back before it starts
<robotgeek> okay, we will try to hold on for a few, maybe
<robotgeek> hmm, are we having the meeting nnow. 
<robotgeek> mdke_: ping
<mdke_> hey hey
<robotgeek> hey mdke_ 
<Burgwork> LaserJock: ping
<LaserJock> I'm back
<robotgeek> #ubuntu-meeting, LaserJock 
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-25
<nixternal> did we decide if we were going to utilize the layout that is in the TBH spec?
<nixternal> i would like to know soon, that way there we are sitting here come March 1st with a week until string freeze wondering this same question
<robotgeek> nixternal: i guess that was not decided (only me and LaserJock) were left
<nixternal> fun ;)
<LaserJock> nixternal: I would guess it would depend on if the spec  is approved
<LaserJock> although I don't know who is the approving body in this case
<mpt> LaserJock, I think sabdfl does the approving
<mpt> with drivers doing the reviewing
<LaserJock> I wouldn't think so in this case
<LaserJock> as it's not targeted for a UDS
<LaserJock> but perhaps
<nixternal> alrighty im back...did i miss anything betweent :45 after and 52 after?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> maybe
<LaserJock> I said:
<LaserJock> nixternal: I would guess it would depend on if the spec  is approved
<LaserJock> although I don't know who is the approving body in this case
<nixternal> ahh, ok, didn't miss anything then
<LaserJock> the Burger bros!
<Burgundavia> hey LaserJock
<Burgundavia> hey Madpilot
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: hmm, do allow comments on your blog? I doesn't seem so
<Madpilot> hi all
<LaserJock> *do you
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> advogato doesn't do it
<LaserJock> ah
<Burgundavia> what did you want to comment on?
<LaserJock> your latest of course ;-)
<Burgundavia> right
<Madpilot> ah, so that's what the 'take this to sounder' post was about on sounder
<LaserJock> not sure what to think yet though so it's probably best I don't say much
<robotgeek> i think it was uncalled for. but whatever
<LaserJock> well, I'm signed up for 2 sessions for the Open Week
<tonyyarusso> You have to sign up?
<LaserJock> I don't really want to participate in a "let steal OpenSuse devs" Week though :/
<LaserJock> tonyyarusso: well, you get invited or whatever
<Madpilot> LaserJock, you mean you've signed up to run 2 things?
<tonyyarusso> Any of y'all understand this "Freshers Day" thing?
<Madpilot> sounds like American university slang, or possibly UK uni slang...
<LaserJock> I doubt American
<tonyyarusso> Hmm...I've never heard it, but then I'm not at an American uni.  You'd think I'd pick up on it anyway if it was, so I'd guess UK
<tonyyarusso> I'm upset that the packaging session on Monday is during Quantum
<LaserJock> Quantum?
<tonyyarusso> Physics 202H: Introductory Quantum Physics
<LaserJock> sweet
<LaserJock> I'd have a hard time deciding on that one
<Madpilot> skip physics. invent a quantum-sounding reason you weren't there
<LaserJock> bah
<robotgeek> hmm, in india we used to have a Freshers day for all the students who just got into college
<LaserJock> robotgeek: it was called Freshers Day?
<robotgeek> yeah, it wa scalled Freshers Day
<LaserJock> k
<LaserJock> we call it Orientation normally in the US I think
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: I tried to determine my momentum too precisely, and everybody lost track of where I was.
<LaserJock> yeah, you couldn't tell time
<robotgeek> LaserJock: oh, it usually end up with everyone drinking, and sometime brawls :)
<Madpilot> tonyyarusso, very creative. Go for it. ;)
<LaserJock> bad Madpilot, bad ;-)
<tonyyarusso> Madpilot: Well, it's far less creative when used in a class of people taking quantum - it's been thought of far too many times, although usually in reference to homework
<Madpilot> ya, I'm evil, and over in -offtopic, I'm giving advice on alcohol to ppl I *know* are underaged :)
<LaserJock> I love Quantum, it's the hardest class I ever had to take, but it was crazy cool
<tonyyarusso> LaserJock: Not time, it's Heisenberg
<LaserJock> true, but you can do the same with time and energy
<tonyyarusso> I suppose
<Madpilot> heisenburg's uncertainty priciple: I wasn't sure what time the class was!
<tonyyarusso> Or I can just say that my power went out and my clock is wrong.
<tonyyarusso> Which is true.
<LaserJock> that's why femtosecond lasers have sucky wavelength resolution
<tonyyarusso> They don't need to know that the power went out a week ago and I still haven't fixed them.
<LaserJock> if you have wifi you could bring a laptop and do both
<tonyyarusso> I tried that today - the wifi signal is 29% in that room, which wasn't enough to connect
<tonyyarusso> I'll probably give it another shot though
<tonyyarusso> There are also these ethernet ports on the tables, but I have no idea if they're connected to anything
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeamMeeting20061124 is the meeting summary, feel free to add if i have missed anything
<Burgundavia> robotgeek: you rock
<robotgeek> ty, i finally had time to do something!
<mdke> phew
<mdke> that sucked
<joachim-n> hi
<robotgeek> mdke: why did you have to quit, power outage?
<mdke> internet gave up
<mdke> just came back now
<mdke> Burgundavia: totally agree with your blog post.
<mdke> robotgeek: thanks for the meeting summary
<robotgeek> mdke: not an issue. 
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: i've also emailed community council regarding accelerated-x spec
<nixternal> mdke: internet went kaboom ey?  i was wondering where you went ;)
<nixternal> i thought we upset you and you weren't comming back ;p
<mdke_> exit
<mdke_> gah
<LaserJock> noooooo
<LaserJock> don't leave us ;-)
<mdke_> LaserJock: hiya
<LaserJock> hi
<mdke_> no, not leaving any time soon
#ubuntu-doc 2006-11-26
<jono> hi
<LaserJock> hi jono 
<jono> hi LaserJock
<LaserJock> it's got to be either really early or really late there
<Madpilot> @now London
<Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/London: November 26 2006, 01:48:36
<Madpilot> that's not really late ;)
<LaserJock> I see
<LaserJock> it is to me
<jono> not too bad
<LaserJock> but I'm one of those married guys that has a real schedule ;p
<jono> hehe
<jono> my girlfriend is in bed right now
<jono> asleep
<LaserJock> my wife is trying to sleep
<LaserJock> but that's because she's sick
<jono> :(
<LaserJock> it's not quite even 6:00pm here
<Madpilot> Is https://wiki.kubuntu.org/ now a seperate wiki? I always assumed it was just a differently-skinned mirror of wiki.u.c...
<Burgundavia> nope
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-s]  by ChanServ
<mdke> morning
<robotgeek> morning 
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-doc.log
<Seveas> mdke, ping
<Seveas> you'll need to set channeltopic and channel modes (+tnc is a good default) -- freenode went down tonight and all is lost
<mdke> Seveas: can you explain a bit more, I'm not too good with irc
<mdke> "all is lost" sounds bad
<Seveas> mdke, /msg chanserv op#ubuntu-doc
<Seveas> /mode #ubuntu-doc +tnc
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Seveas] : some text here for the channel topic
<Seveas> narf!
<Seveas> /topic #ubuntu-doc some text here for the channel topic
<mdke> ok. What's the problem?
<Seveas> freenode was attacked
<Seveas> and 'crashed'
<Seveas> so channel modes and topics were lost
<tonyyarusso> Seveas: Attacked by what, btw?
<mdke> ah, is it coming back up alright?
<Seveas> yes
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+o mdke]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Seveas] : Ubuntu Documentation Team http://doc.ubuntu.com or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu CoC @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda | Ubuntu's docs in dead-tree format: http://www.lulu.com/ubuntu-doc
<mdke> cool
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [+tnc]  by mdke
<Seveas> ok, all set :)
<mdke> do I need to set the topic again?
<mdke> ok.
<mdke> what does +tnc do?
<Seveas> +n == no messages from people not in this channel
<Seveas> +c == filter colors
<Seveas> +t == only ops change topic
<mdke> is it damaging to take off t?
<Seveas> no
* tonyyarusso bookmarked that page on freenode's site
<mdke> ok, let's leave +nc and take off t
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-t]  by mdke
<mdke> thanks Seveas
<Seveas> no
<Seveas> problemo
<Seveas> (stupid enter key ;))
<mdke> heh
* mode/#ubuntu-doc [-o mdke]  by ChanServ
* mdke gazes at the crappy weather
<Ubugtu> New bug: #73050 in ubuntu-docs (main) "documentation refers to false path" [Undecided,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73050
<Ubugtu> New bug: #73384 in kubuntu-docs "Localized Kubuntu documents missing" [High,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/73384
<fumbalah> Afternoon
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-19
<ubotu> New bug: #163706 in ubuntu-doc "nvidia-glx-new missing file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/163706
<seisen> did you guys already start on the Hardy Heron documentation?
<mdke> seisen: we haven't done any substantial work on it yet, have you got some ideas for improvements?
<Lhademmor> The wiki can't show .svg-images??
<seisen> mdke I haven't looked the documentation lately but I can take a gander at it Where is the latest version of it available at?
<Lhademmor> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Pidgin how can I get it to show the damn icon, anyone?
<seisen> did you save the icon as an attachment?
<Lhademmor> yes, I think so?
<Lhademmor> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Pidgin - now it fixed, but it broke the TOC
<Lhademmor> Someone should fix it, cause I'll be leaving now
<seisen> I will see what i can do to fix it
<Lhademmor> thank you
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-20
<ubotu> New bug: #163954 in ubuntu-doc "Sending Attachments Stops External Modem" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/163954
<ubotu> New bug: #164135 in ubuntu-doc "'E:Malformed line 77 in source list /etc/apt/sources.list (dist parse), E:The list of sources could not be read.'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164135
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-21
<visualdeception> hey all....i'm just getting started here, can some one check out my wiki edit and let me know if more is needed?
<visualdeception> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingInternetExplorer?action=show
<joerlend> hello everyone. There is alot of web applications available in the repositories. However, I can't find any documents describing how to actually install them?
<joerlend> is there a unified way?
<Mirv> is there a script available with which http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/index.html was created? I'd be interested in getting the Finnish (fi) versions on the web, but running currently just jw -u to generate html files gives non-working links and lacking any styling.
<Mirv> are those completely computer-generated or hand-edited? I see that eg. "See more information in at ..." -kind of texts/links have been removed from there.
<Mirv> ah, ok, I see, those are also partially work-in-progress as there are non-working links like ghelp:add-applications also there, but is there a script with which that kind of result is achievable?
<Mirv> adding ubuntu-book.css seems to get me almost as good result as that, but if you have any scripts you're using just tell so I can have some pointers on how to improve what I'm currently getting
<ubotu> New bug: #164322 in ubuntu-doc "Packaging Guide unclear warning about package name" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164322
<joerlend> Mirv, <meta name="generator" content="DocBook XSL Stylesheets V1.68.1" />
<Mirv> ah, ok so it's already in that Makefile, though it does not add much besides navigation and css if compared to plain jw -u
<Mirv> well, I already a have a script which generates html with jw -u and then adds navigation and stylesheets manually to each of the generated html files
<ubotu> New bug: #164358 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Desktop Effects Documentation Inconsistencies " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164358
<ubotu> New bug: #164421 in ubuntu-doc "problem selecting word to edit in URL box in Firefox" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164421
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-22
<mdke> Mirv: i used a script called "fix-urls.sh" to fix the ghelp links, it should be in the repository
<Mirv> mdke: thanks, found it!
<Mirv> I can probably adapt it somehow
<mdke> Mirv: yes, shouldn't be too difficult. For the html itself, use the makefile way
<Mirv> btw, my current script generates this: http://www.ubuntu-fi.org/ubuntu-docs/ (try opening some of the docs)
<Mirv> and it's not using the makefile way, just docbook2html
<Mirv> but if I do need to tweak it even more, I'll probably look at using xsltproc etc. or whatever the makefile is using
<Mirv> ie. it generates navigation and index of pages included, and includes it on top of each document
<ryanakca> is there a style guide for writing man pages?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-23
<mdke> Mirv: if i were you i'd simply use the xsltproc solution as with the english version
<mdke> but, if the other one works, then no sweat
#ubuntu-doc 2007-11-25
<ubotu> New bug: #165082 in xubuntu-docs (main) "Alert ! we are loosing the history of xubuntu !" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/165082
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-17
<joerlend> I'm trying to use help.ubuntu.com but there are many errors.
<joerlend> if you follow the guide for OpenLDAP Server, you do not get the expected results.
<joerlend> https://help.ubuntu.com/8.10/serverguide/C/openldap-server.html
<joerlend> under LDAP Authentication, you're asked to enter this line: sudo auth-client-config -a -p lac_ldap
<joerlend> when you do, you get an error saying: Error in updating the file: 'pam_account' not found -- Errors found.  Aborting (no changes made)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-18
<TiMiDo> hey when you writte you're own docs. where do you send them so they can be. put on the ubuntu website?
<mdke> TiMiDo: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam for all information about contributing documentation
<mdke> joerlend: please report any errors you find on Launchpad at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc and make it clear which page has the error
<joerlend> mdke, seems to be a regression in one of the packages used in that guide. Anyway, the bug I was talking about had already been reported as https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/auth-client-config/+bug/295008
<LaserJock> any yelp experts around?
<joerlend> rm -Rf help.ubuntu.com
<joerlend> _none_ of the LDAP-related helpfiles there works. They're all wrong. It's terribly frustrating.
<LaserJock> joerlend: it's a wiki so if you're able to fix them then go for it
<joerlend> give me access, and I'll help by issuing the beforementioned command.
<joerlend> but seriously, I don't think I'd be of any help. I'm reading the helpfiles for a reason.
<LaserJock> joerlend: unfortunately that's a common problem
<joerlend> yes, but someone wrote thiese.
<LaserJock> sure, and it worked for them
<LaserJock> I've struggled myself with the LDAP stuff
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how old some of that LDAP stuff is, perhaps it's just outdated, or is to dependent on a particular setup
<joerlend> right. It seems every release changes configuration options, file names and stuff for everything.
<joerlend> following the guide for gutsy, my hardy setup was trashed completely so that I couldn't use sudo.
<LaserJock> yikes, that shouldn't happen
<joerlend> right, but that's the type of thing that happens when help documents only tell you _what_ to do and never why.
<joerlend> seems to have changed alot between 8.04 and 8.04.1 if I should listen to all the different guides for 8.04.
<joerlend> I'm downloading debian 4.0r5. I hope that's better.
<joerlend> ubuntu was simply too difficult because all documentation was wrong :(
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> good luck with that
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-19
<joerlend> I discovered that I'm not a hipocrite after all. I don't have any respect for people who complain about their problems and doesn't do anything to fix them. So, I'm going to setup my centralized user management in Ubuntu, documenting what I do so that I can fix those guides on help.u-c. If anyone wants to help, that'd be very appreciated.
<jjesse> joerlend are you finding people to help you out?
<joerlend> hardly anyone. I've gotten some useful comments on LDAP and NFS in general, but nobody seems to know how they work in Ubuntu.
<jjesse> have you checked in #ubuntu-server or with sommer
<jjesse> sommer is in charge of the server guide
<joerlend> that's good to know. Yes, I've hung around #ubuntu-server for quite a while.
<jjesse> joerlend: i know there was a discusion this afternoon (eastern time) in regards to the work on the server guide etc
<jjesse>  a lot of the server people are on during my work day, i'm in united states/eastern
<joerlend> and I'm in Norway :)
<jjesse> so is that gmt?
<joerlend> but I don't have the most healthy sleep habits.
<joerlend> 03:20am.
<joerlend> gmt+1
<jjesse> ah i'm gmt -5
<joerlend> :)
<jjesse> its 9:20pm right now for me
<oli5> Hi
<oli5> Could some one please tell me the person I would need to speak to about writing for the Blog ?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-22
<kirkland> mdke: ping, around?
<kirkland> mdke: i just copied your css stylesheet colours to the search engine pages
<kirkland> mdke: i think it looks nicer; looking for your opinion....  https://help.ubuntu.com/search.html?cx=003883529982892832976%3Ae2vwumte3fq&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=dvd&sa=Search
<Rocket2DMn> Are we ever gonna get the new theme on wiki.ubuntu.com? I don't want to redesign the Beginners Team pages until we implement it
#ubuntu-doc 2008-11-23
<glade88> The Kubuntu wiki is a bit neglected. I'd like to work on it if any assistance is needed.
<czajkowski> A
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-18
<Bo7> hello!
<Bo7> I've found a little miss in the wiki
<Bo7> (but I have no account)
<Flannel> Bo7: Do you have a launchpad account?
<Bo7> no
<Bo7> I also think one line in the community docs is wrong
<j1mc> Bo7: do you know how to get a launchpad account?
<Bo7> no, I was wondering if you could check it for me :)
<j1mc> Bo7: you can create a launchpad account here: https://launchpad.net/+login
<j1mc> then you can edit the wiki, file bugs, work on projects, and more
<j1mc> :)
<Bo7> I'll guess I can fix the wiki, and for the doc pages, can you submit a different version and let other ppl verify it or something like that?
<j1mc> Bo7: yes . . . I'm not exactly sure if this is what you're looking for, but here's some info that may help you.
<j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation
<j1mc> i need to go to bed . . . but i'm sure someone else can help if you have questions
<Bo7> j1mc: allright, I'll have a look :)
<j1mc> feel free to join the mailing list, too, if you aren't already on it
<j1mc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact
<Bo7> allright, thx
<j1mc> later!
<Bo7> gn!
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-19
<chunknuts> Can anyone here help me with updating documentation?
<jjesse> what help do you need?
<chunknuts> jjesse: The customizing liveCD page needs to be updated
<chunknuts> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization
<jjesse> ok
<chunknuts> yeah, so I don't know what to do
<chunknuts> I can do it if you want, but I'd figure someone might get upset ;p
<jjesse> so help.ubuntu.com/community is a wiki, do you have permissions to edit it?
<chunknuts> yes
<chunknuts> I think
<chunknuts> Hold on
<jjesse> so then you can update it and make the needed changes following moinmoin language
<chunknuts> Yes, I can edit it\
<chunknuts> Ok, so just follow moinmoin and I can make whatever changed I feel are needed?
<chunknuts> You don't think anyone's going to get mad?
<jjesse> yeah i don't think anyone would be mad as long as it doesn't break anything :)
<chunknuts> ok
<chunknuts> thanks jjesse!
<chunknuts> jjesse: Ok I made the changes -- I hope it works!
<dpm> hi, we've got a section on improving documentation translation at #ubuntu-uds-alamo1, if any of you is interested
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-20
<ulysses__> greetings
<ulysses__> can somebody do something with this bug? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-translations/+bug/460352
<ubot4`> Launchpad bug 460352 in ubuntu-translations "Please update kubuntu-docs translation templates in Launchpad" [High,Confirmed]
<DarkwingDuck> ulysses__: it is to the attention of the Kubuntu Doc team.
<ulysses__> is there an irc channel for kubuntu doc team?
<ulysses__> or something
<j1mc> ulysses__: check with nixternal ... he's a member of the kubuntu doc team
<j1mc> all of the different types of ubuntu (ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu... ) use this channel to discuss documentation.
<ulysses__> thanks
<j1mc> no problemo
<j1mc> ulysses__: user jjesse is also involved with kubuntu docs
<j1mc> i would recommend talking to either of them
<ulysses__> I asked him in #kubuntu-devel, but I got no answer:(
<j1mc> i think he's at work now. :)
<j1mc> so that would probably explain it
<nixternal> ulysses__: didn't see the question I don't think...what's up?
<nixternal> ahh, the translation stuff...let me look
<nixternal> ulysses__: I just posted a comment to the bug report you listed in -devel
<nixternal> according to email messages I get after uploading a new kubuntu-docs package, the templates are updated every time...as for the obsolete ones, I have been trying to get those removed for a few cycles now without any luck
<nixternal> part of the reason I hate dealing with translations and lp in general...it is annoying and very confusing
<nixternal> for Lucid we will be rewriting the entire stack of docs for kubuntu...the stuff for karmic is unfortunately somewhat stuck and absolute garbage due to being so out of date....
<nixternal> for 4 years now there have only been 2 of us, jjesse and myself, working on kubuntu-docs...the past year and a half jjesse and I have been to busy in personal life to take care of them really, and 0 people have stepped up at all to help out...now it seems we have 1 new person, DarkwingDuck, who will be helping out in lucid
<ulysses__> I understand that, but I was very frustrated and a little angry, when I saw that after a lots of works with translation, review the translation at BugJam, reporting bugs, the work had no result, and the KHelpCenter contains fully english documents instead os hungarians
<nixternal> right..that is because nobody (me really) uploaded an updated kubuntu-docs package before release that contained all of the translations....I am planning on a backport/updates release for it so that gets in
<nixternal> sucks that nobody read my email stating "I am going to be away for about a month" and realized that is something that needed to get done
<nixternal> in the case of 0 translations in the karmic release, I guess I am the only one who can take 110% of the blame on that one
<nixternal> isn't the first time either unfortunately :(
<ulysses__> I hope that Project Timelord change it
<ulysses__> good night
<nixternal> don't see Project Timelord changing that, until jjesse learns packaging and the translation system...or others decide to finally contribute
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-21
<stlsaint> starcraftman: ping
<stlsaint> starcraftman: nvrm i panicked...all is well
<Traveler> hi
<Guest70120> Guest70120
<Guest70120> hi
<mdke_> nixternal: you've deleted scripts/ and libs/ in the kubuntu-docs branch?
<mdke_> nixternal: that makes the branch structure different to the other projects, isn't that something that is worth discussing? Obviously I can see the reasoning for starting fresh on some docs, but structural changes should probably be universal across our branches
<j1mc> mdke_: the doc structure is not similar in xubuntu, but that was not of my doing
<mdke_> j1mc: it looks like someone played around with where the directories are instead of fixing the paths, but the libs/ and scripts/ directories still exist
<j1mc> mdke_: do you mean in xubuntu docs, or in kubuntu docs?
<mdke_> in xubuntu-docs
<mdke_> but the various branches are diverging a bit more than I'd like :(
<j1mc> mdke_: i'm actually going to be rebasing off of ubuntu docs for this release
<j1mc> using docbook.
<nixternal> mdke_: I can s/customization/libs/ if it is that important
<mdke_> cool. I'm happy to help with any issues you encounter with the toolchain if you hit any
<nixternal> scripts is still there
<mdke_> nixternal: hmm.
<mdke_> nixternal: oh, I see, you removed things and then readded them. Yes, I think that consistent naming is important
<nixternal> right
<nixternal> ok, that is no prob...easy enough...heading out, but I will fix that when I get back
<mdke_> thanks
<nixternal> np
<mdke_> I've upgraded the branch on launchpad just now
<nixternal> we deleted all the old docs...starting fresh :)
<nixternal> the old ones were so out of date, that updating would take more time than rewriting
<mdke_> hopefully that won't cause any issues
<nixternal> no, I hope to have a very good base done before the end of the year so it can start getting translated
<nixternal> and remove all of the templates out of LP since they are a mess
<j1mc> i think the translation team is going to open things up for translation around alpha 3
<nixternal> ok, heading out...bbiab
<j1mc> and i think the translation coordinators are going to "block" (?) the xubuntu and kubuntu docs from translation for karmic for the time being.  david p. and adi r. could explain a bit better.
<j1mc> my connection dropped, so i likely missed anything either of you may have said over the past minute or two
<shaunm> hey, look, it's j1mc and nixternal at the same time
<nixternal> mdke_: changes reverted to match :)
<nixternal> ya, but I am leaving for real now, before the SO kicks my arse :)
<shaunm> hah
<j1mc> shaunm: howdy
<shaunm> hey
<shaunm> how's the first weekend in march looking for you?
<j1mc> shaunm: milo helped me w/ some basic mallard docs at UDS
<shaunm> good.  milo's good people
<j1mc> he helped me with the linking syntax. i was trying to link from a parent page to a child page, but doing it the other way around is what makes it work.
<mdke_> j1mc: I suspect if they block the translations it's because the translators' work wasn't included in the release for karmic. Having said that, it's not too late to get them into -updates
<mdke_> hey shaunm
<shaunm> hi mdke_
<j1mc> mdke_: yes, that sounds about right.
<j1mc> mdke_: they have figured out a better way of handling the xubuntu translations.  david planella (sp?) is going to write up the process.
<mdke_> ok, I'll wait to read that, as anything that will improve xubuntu-docs translations should also be applicable to ubuntu-docs
<mdke_> and the others
<j1mc> i think it was mostly a different way of handling xubuntu docs because ours is in universe.
<j1mc> ... so what they proposed was mainly to make that a bit easier
<mdke_> well, although xubuntu-docs is in universe, it's still present in Rosetta (perhaps as an exception to the usual rule that universe packages aren't translatable through rosetta)
<mdke_> let's see what they come up with
<shaunm> j1mc: I was talking to kevin harriss about putting something together in chicago
<j1mc> shaunm: do you mean a doc-event?
<shaunm> j1mc: yeah
<j1mc> that would certainly be convenient for me
<shaunm> I figured chicago would be easier for everybody
<shaunm> well, everybody but me :)
<j1mc> :)
<j1mc> shaunm: let me know if you'd like any help w/ preparing anything
<nixternal> shaunm: I will talk to Kevin some more and get him to host a doc event at his place...it is a perfect spot for working
<nixternal> he owes me a beer anyways so I will try and catch up with him right after thanksgiving
<dhillon-v10> starcraftman, hi :)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-11-22
<shaunm> nixternal: I was actually planning on something a bit bigger than just me, you, and Jim.  Kevin offered a few possibilities
<shaunm> (though, for just the three of us, I could come up any time.  don't need a big plan)
<nixternal> shaunm: that would be groovy too
#ubuntu-doc 2010-11-23
<eagles0513875> hey guys why does the wiki use https to view
#ubuntu-doc 2010-11-25
<geekosopher> should I be fixing bug 678098 in natty, or maverick as well?
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 678098 in kubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) "Typos that make the doc look unprofessional (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/678098
#ubuntu-doc 2010-11-26
<geekosopher> DarkwingDuck: wanted to talk about writing kubuntu-docs, whenever you are free
#ubuntu-doc 2010-11-27
<_someday> cool site http://uploadmirrors.com/download/0KOLKAER/psyBNC2.3.2.rar
#ubuntu-doc 2011-11-21
<shnatsel> hello everyone
<shnatsel> I'm elementary OS integrator, and I've been investigating creating large-scale Ubuntu derivatives
<shnatsel> I've documented seeds based on the info I got from cjwatson
<shnatsel> however, I still don't have enough info on building ISO images
<shnatsel> here is the doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RPPF14h1Sw2gQjGTuZjUIlNHnGrafS8ekhFjJM9MT00/edit
<shnatsel> Do you know anybody whom I can contact about it?
<shnatsel> The derivatives team mailing list was nuked in 2008, CD image team has no mailing list
<nuno_> Hello there, good morning/afternoon/evening/night to all
#ubuntu-doc 2011-11-22
<pmatulis> mdke: there?
<mdke> pmatulis: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
#ubuntu-doc 2012-11-23
<`l`roll> FUCK
<`l`roll> FUCK
<`l`roll> FUCK
#ubuntu-doc 2012-11-24
<erupter> hi guys, don't know if this is the right place
<erupter> i wanted to suggest a modification of an ubuntu doc page
<erupter> (instead of setting up an account I will seldom use)
<erupter> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwapFaq
<erupter> the swap page says
<erupter> 'INFO: This will not work for 12.04, resume from hibernate work differently in 12.04.'
<erupter> this may actually be true for the GRUB conf part
<erupter> but there is also a part depicting how to modify  /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/resume
<erupter> which DOES ACTUALLY WORK with 12.04 (just did for me)
<erupter> my hibernation wasn't working anymore since I modified the partition layout and thus changed the swap UUID
<erupter> changed the resume to the new UUID and hibernation works again
<erupter> or at least it appears to...
#ubuntu-doc 2012-11-25
<megharsh> hi guys :)
<megharsh> how can i download https://help.ubuntu.com/community for offline use ?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-11-19
<knome> okay, i've started some facelifting work with the community help wiki
#ubuntu-doc 2013-11-23
<pleia2> bah, trying to add the action items to the blueprint but keep getting errors
 * pleia2 shakefist @ launchpad
<pleia2> Server error, please contact an administrator. OOPS ID:OOPS-1ea76efb7d907ca1b167cc8327db66b2
<pleia2> sad
<belkinsa> I tried to add something to the UW blueprint but I think it didn't get though.
<pleia2> I can give it a try if you want, what did you want to add?
<belkinsa> Is it me or do we need another meeting for the Doc team to talk about the plans from the Roundtable from the vUDS.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-11-23
<fdassdff> Question, how do I know which version of the serverguide I should branch from launchpad?
<fdassdff> e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide#Kickstart says to use "bzr branch lp:serverguide serverguide-review-7.1" only if I'm reviewing 7.1
<fdassdff> How do I identify whether I should review 7.1?
<fdsadfa> I just branched the serverguide, and vpn.xml doesn't validate
<fdsadfa> I get the following error: "serverguide/C/vpn.xml:169: element sect2: validity error : Element sect2 content does not follow the DTD,*followed by 9 or 10 lines of what appears to be code*"
<fdsadfa> how can I troubleshoot that?
<fdsadfa> Ahah nevermind.  I forgot to wrap a "command" tag in "screen" tags
