#ubuntu-discuss 2013-01-14
<mesquka> Hi
#ubuntu-discuss 2013-01-16
<ryaxnb> using ubuntu with icewm
<ryaxnb> it agrees with my slow laptop
<ryaxnb> icewm is a simple win95-like wm
<ryaxnb> i like it
<Calinou> lollaptops
<dwatkins> cool, I wanted to try fvwm95 but it failed to compile
#ubuntu-discuss 2013-01-19
<tallnerd1985> Sup everyone
<tallnerd1985> Anybody know what's happening with Ubuntu for Android and not the Mobile OS
#ubuntu-discuss 2014-01-17
<chuckles1407> i have questions about ubuntu server software
<hrnz> chuckles1407: that's nice.
<chuckles1407> hrnz i wanted to make sure i was in the right place before asking. Anyway I am new to using servers and was wondering if windows computers would work on ubuntu server
<hrnz> yes, they would most certainly work
<hrnz> but this isn't the right place to ask ;)
<chuckles1407> tank you. i knew how to set a server up and know how a server worked but wanted to check before going though the processes. thank you for awnsering even if this is the wrong place to ask ;)
<jussi> chuckles1407: #ubuntu-server is a more appropriate place
<chuckles1407> thank you i will bookmark for future servces
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-01-12
<LaSalamandra> Sup
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-01-14
<UnlawfulWaffle> Howdy, folks
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-01-16
<chaotix> hey
#ubuntu-discuss 2015-01-18
<zenrex> hello
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-01-18
<EriC^^> Bashing-om: know anything about daftykins?
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: daftykins I seem to recall he advised he would be absent for a couple/few days (??) // Sure would have been nice if he or you had of been around to hold my hand earlier .- Thought I was going to be springing fo a new hard drive - turned out sparring off the superblock resolved my situation .
<EriC^^> oh ok
<EriC^^> well, that's good to hear on both accounts
<Bashing-om> Uh HUh, we miss our members when they are AWOL . :)
<EriC^^> :)
<Bashing-om> Can I say - Inchannel - one man's bloat is another man's treasure ?
<EriC^^> haha
<EriC^^> :D
<Bashing-om> Enough excitement ... going horizontal for the duration - G night.
<lordievader> Good morning.
<ikonia> has ubuntu TV been official dropped yet ?
<ikonia> or is it still classed as an active community project ?
<BluesKaj> 'Morning folks
<cfhowlett> BluesKaj, !
<BluesKaj> hi cfhowlett
<lotuspsychje> DJones: alive mate?
<nicomachus> why is 15.04 EOL on Febuay 4 instead of January 23?
<nicomachus> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2016-January/000203.html
<lotuspsychje> nicomachus: found this...https://fridge.ubuntu.com/2016/01/14/ubuntu-15-04-vivid-vervet-reaches-end-of-life-on-february-4-2016/
<nicomachus> lol, that's a c+p of the archive of the list email... but I'm wondering why
<lotuspsychje> delay...but why not sure
<Bashing-om> wb EriC^^ ... been slow . But UEFI/grub has just popped up .
<EriC^^> thanks Bashing-om
<lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
<EriC^^> hey lotuspsychje
<OerHeks> ImageMagick
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: Does your smart bucket contain anything for : http://dpaste.com/2H20M3V . As a failure to release upgrade ?
<nicomachus> Bashing-om: is he on Lucid as in Lucid Lynx?
<Bashing-om> nicomachus: Yeah .. attempting - emphasis - to release upgrade EOL path .
<nicomachus> oh boy.
<Bashing-om> nicomachus: Do I did warn of that " Oh boy " .
<nicomachus> that just sounds like a real fun time. I have no idea how that could be accomplished without reinstall.
<EriC^^> Bashing-om: maybe it's a hash mismatch thing?
<EriC^^> Bashing-om: seems there's a shady workaround on askubuntu
<EriC^^> http://askubuntu.com/questions/425355/error-authenticating-some-packages-while-upgrade
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: I really do not know ... O had thought it was a GPG thing .. but seems not so as the OP has inspected a similar install with same keys on the alternate system . I stuck !
<EriC^^> maybe he should try again later and it's able to verify the packages
<EriC^^> maybe some thing is wrong with the ubuntu server
<Bashing-om> EriC^^: Yeah .. there is that too !
<Bashing-om> Away from the keyboard .. climbing into the rain locker .. be back soonest .
<EriC^^> ok
<Bashing-om> Back, all better now ..
<nicomachus> oh, yay, TheEnderCreeper0 is back....
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-01-19
<nicomachus> lol EriC^^, I have no idea what's going on there.
<EriC^^> me neither :D
<nicomachus> apparently I just have completely missed K1rk ever saying a word there, and assumed a new user was mistyping k1l...
<EriC^^> me too
<nicomachus> my life is a lie.
<EriC^^> to be fair, k1l is one of the most nicks who get confused, followed by DerHeks, and draftykins
<EriC^^> lol yeah
<EriC^^> :D
<nicomachus> there was one guy that messed up daftykins a different way every time he said it.
<EriC^^> haha
<EriC^^> lol :D
<nicomachus> speaking of... haven't seen daftykins in a few days. or TJ-.
<EriC^^> yeah, Bashing-om tells me daftykins said he'd be away for a few days
<EriC^^> TJ- has been coming on less for a few days i think, saw him couple days ago though
<nicomachus> just checked the logs for the entire year of 2015. the name "K1rk" is mentioned once.
<nicomachus> [23:45] <McMido> K1rk: alright ill check it
<nicomachus> guessing that was a mistype.
<nicomachus> yep. preceding line was:
<nicomachus> [23:45] <k1l_> McMido: see the logs
<EriC^^> yeah, never seen him talking before
<nicomachus> well now he's taking requests. interesting.
<EriC^^> logs show him talking recently to b0b and a few others, seems to know his stuff though i guess
<lordievader> Good morning.
<OerHeks> heya good morning lordievader
<lordievader> Hey OerHeks, how are you?
<OerHeks> i'm fine, going to work on my KVM/snappy server 2nd day. slow learning process.
<lordievader> Snappy? How does Snappy tie in here?
<OerHeks> That is what i like to find out, what can i do with it?
<OerHeks> not all the manuals i can find are that clear, some are contradictory
<OerHeks> \o/ TJ-
<TJ-> Morning :)
<lotuspsychje> DJones, ikonia, phunyguy, rww, Tm_T dont you guys have some influence to un-ban Blueskaj from #ubuntu? he's been banned by idleone for no reason...a real case of powerabuse on a volunteer that helped here for years...check http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2016/01/16/%23ubuntu.html @15h21 we all know #ubuntu-ops is to use for unbanning, but naturally Blueskaj doesnt wanna go beg for something he didnt do....
<lotuspsychje> i really hope you guys can do the right thing here
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-01-20
<dotpixis> what's a quick way to find the current version of my webbrowser?
<nicomachus> what browser
<dotpixis> firefox, but is there a way to do it in the terminal?
<nicomachus> firefox --version
<dotpixis> ty
<lotuspsychje> !info libsdl2 xenial
<ubot5> Package libsdl2 does not exist in xenial
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<cfhowlett> BluesKaj, man WHAT have you been up?
<BluesKaj> hi cfhowlett , not much , just the usual trsing etc
<BluesKaj> testing
<cfhowlett> nice.
<BluesKaj> yeah 16.04 Kubuntu. lots of changes to the plasma desktop
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-01-21
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-01-22
<BluesKaj> Hi all
<OerHeks> i have questions for all your answers *hips*
<Bashing-om> And the answer is .. " the Kernel told me to ". That Grasshopper is the answer to life .
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-01-23
<Bashing-om> nicomachus: IRT HappyHippie chromium ...' pepperflashplugin-nonfree ' ?
<nicomachus> yea that's an option as well, but haven't been able to get anything more than ?? out of him/her so far.
<Bashing-om> nicomachus: My 1st reaction the the 'why?' was mot to waste a lot of time .
<nicomachus> heh, I was 50/50 on whether to clarify or not.
<Bashing-om> nicomachus: We ... in for a penny - in for a pound .. I will see how it plays out .
<nicomachus> There's a PPA for precise
<Bashing-om> nicomachus: Houston, we may have a problem :)
 * nicomachus sighs...
<nicomachus> directed him to a pastebin, instead he pastes it into a PM to me...
<nicomachus> then leaves.
<Bashing-om> Oh well .. lead them to water ......
<nicomachus> I'm done with that one. holy cow.
<Bashing-om> some peeps .. do not even know HOW to learn .
<BluesKaj> evening folks
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<EriC^^> hey lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> hey hey EriC^^
<lotuspsychje> how are you mate
<EriC^^> good thanks, you?
<lotuspsychje> great
<EriC^^> how's the driving going?
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: a lil better tnx, releasing slower right now
<lotuspsychje> but still i like the newer car better :p
<EriC^^> great
<EriC^^> what about the shop? how's it coming together?
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: still waiting to buy a house first
<lotuspsychje> cant start before we bought one, beacause of the taxes i can refund
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: but im surely gonna start the shop :p
<EriC^^> oh ok
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: there was a guy few days ago, who bought a barebone in #ubuntu
<EriC^^> how's xenial doing?
<lotuspsychje> tired of windows...
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: pretty stable on desktop actually
<EriC^^> cool
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: im also testing unity8 on it, but looks still the same
<EriC^^> oh
<EriC^^> did you try compiz on it? any new settings?
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: compiz is running default on unity7 right
<lotuspsychje> and yes i have wobbly windows on xenial
<lotuspsychje> works pretty nice
<EriC^^> yeah, no i mean the ccsm
<lotuspsychje> yep got it
<lotuspsychje> but im not sure of compiz's future EriC^^
<lotuspsychje> as unity8 and mir are comming...
<EriC^^> oh
<EriC^^> also snappy
<EriC^^> lots of changes coming up
<lotuspsychje> snappy i didnt test yet :p
#ubuntu-discuss 2016-01-24
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> Hey folks
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-01-16
<avis> its cheaper than h.91 and more energy efficient
<avis> and people need jobs
<avis> it compiles stuff that has correct code better than the best compiler and cannot be cloned.  #debian is not fair.
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<ducasse> \o morning!
<ObrienDave> waves from Colorado
 * ducasse waves back
<Bashing-om> ducasse: Day shift to take over :)
<ducasse> Bashing-om: how has your day been? :)
<Bashing-om> Been fair . some progress made on the 'buntu learnig curve .
<ducasse> good :)
<Bashing-om> 'tis :))
<lordievader> Good morning
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
<unknowed> hi
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-01-17
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: \o
<lotuspsychje> hey there Bashing-om
<lotuspsychje> workspaces stuck on unity :p
<Bashing-om> chocolate chip cookie fest here , want one or seven ? Too slow for else .
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: U did do 17.04 unity .. I do not remember how to activate work spaces :( When I get back top worling on 17.04 will work on that .
 * lotuspsychje opens his hand for chocolats :p
<Bashing-om> *I/U // I did do unity for 17.04 ... must be too many cookies .,
 * Bashing-om slides a stack over lotuspsychje's way .
<Bashing-om> Breakfast of champions !
<lotuspsychje> yay
<lotuspsychje> perhaps ill reset lightdm later
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: short cut keys to switch work spaces work ?
<lotuspsychje> hmm never use them really
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Not used unity since shortly after 12.04 .. so my memory not to be trusted .
<lotuspsychje> no sweat, ill find whats going on
<Bashing-om> 'Nuf .. we do this more later. G nite .
<ducasse> good morning all
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> Hey folks
<ducasse> hi BluesKaj, how are you today? :)
<BluesKaj> Hi ducasse, doing well thanks , and you?
<ducasse> all good, thanks. just sitting down to catch up on news etc.
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-01-18
<Bashing-om> !info libc6 trsuty
<ubot5> 'trsuty' is not a valid distribution: kubuntu-backports, kubuntu-experimental, kubuntu-updates, partner, precise, precise-backports, precise-proposed, stable, testing, trusty, trusty-backports, trusty-proposed, unstable, utopic, utopic-backports, utopic-proposed, vivid, vivid-backports, vivid-proposed, wily, wily-backports, wily-proposed, xenial, xenial-backports, xenial-proposed, yakkety, yakkety-backports, yakkety-proposed, zesty, zesty-backports, 
<Bashing-om> !info libc6 trusty
<ubot5> libc6 (source: eglibc): Embedded GNU C Library: Shared libraries. In component main, is required. Version 2.19-0ubuntu6.9 (trusty), package size 3894 kB, installed size 9252 kB
<lotuspsychje> morning guys :p
 * Bashing-om present and accounted for :D
<lotuspsychje> hey there Bashing-om
<lotuspsychje> hows the night been
<Bashing-om> slow slow slow .. I have got to get inventive to keep occupied :)
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> morning reg_
<reg_> hi
<Bashing-om> Oh the tutorials I have put on the back burner for sometime . looks like this is a good sometime .
<lotuspsychje> back burner?
<Bashing-om> to do later . Ya know in cooking one places an entry on the less heat and out of the way ( back burner ) . to pull forward when the rest is prepared .
<lotuspsychje> ah
<lotuspsychje> go it
<Bashing-om> Outta here - G nite guys .
<ducasse> good morning
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-01-19
<Bashing-om> daftykins: Nother 40 dollars US deeper in debt and a day closre to getting that automobile back on the road . 2 steps forward and 5 back . But the day was not a total waste :)
<Bashing-om> enough is enough ; g nite
<ducasse> \o
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> Hey all
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-01-20
<lotuspsychje> goood morning :p
 * lotuspsychje slides a hot coffee to Bashing-om 
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Thankee .. great minds think alike :)
 * lotuspsychje looking up the sky for great minds :p
<Bashing-om> Welp, I went back out this AM to finish up working on the car . fired it up and was taking way to much coolant . I guess when the water line bursted it cracked a head as I had coolant in the oil ! .  Really disgusted at things , but found and made a deal for a nice older Buick auto. all works out to the good .
<lotuspsychje> ouch
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Time an money solves many issues :)
<Bashing-om> !ping
<ubot5> pong!
<Bashing-om> !ping
<ubot5> pong!
<lotuspsychje> bbl breakfast ;p
<Bashing-om> done for this session - laters .
<ducasse> hi all
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> 'Morning all
<lotuspsychje> hey ducasse & lordievader
<lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> how are you lordievader
<lordievader> Doing good here :)
<brunch875> wohoo http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=clear-steam-linux&num=1
<brunch875> has anyone tried those mesa drivers?
<brunch875> oh, mesa is the nouveau driver?
<lotuspsychje> brunch875: think daftykins recently tested it
<lotuspsychje> brunch875: the #gamingonlinux community also know a bunch on it
<brunch875> unfortunately for me, I can only use the proprietary drivers on this laptop
<brunch875> otherwise ubuntu hangs on login
<brunch875> which is surprising, since the installer works just fine with whatever it comes bundled with
<lotuspsychje> brunch875: what kind of card is that
<brunch875> gtx960
<brunch875> (laptop)
<lotuspsychje> brunch875: talk to the #gamingonlinux guys, they will know if that card can run mesa
<brunch875> really? thanks for the tips
<lotuspsychje> msea is a big deal lately on gaming for linux
<lotuspsychje> *mesa
<BluesKaj> Howdy folks
<daftykins> \o
<EriC^^> hey daftykins
<EriC^^> how's it going?
<daftykins> mmm not bad here cheers, although i've had my shower ripped out now for the insurance process so i can't wash at home anymore :)
<daftykins> what's new with you?
<EriC^^> not much just finished eating some mcdonalds
<EriC^^> eating like a beast
<EriC^^> ever since my grandma got kidney disease i was already eating like a beast and i figured i'd probably get kidney disease too so i'm like eating even more now before it happens some day
<EriC^^> plus i have to take advantage of my super fast metabolism, it's like wasting a gift or something
<EriC^^> :D
<daftykins> XD
<daftykins> not sure how you get from kidneys -> food, but hey if it works for you :D
<EriC^^> she can't eat anything anymore
<daftykins> oic
<EriC^^> it's like a super strict diet no chocolate no salt no eggs nothing
<daftykins> oof
<EriC^^> yup it's basically like trying to eat very very little to control the kidney malfunction
<EriC^^> like she can eat pees just once a week, and just a coupe fruits, etc
<daftykins> that's a serious quality of life reduction
<EriC^^> yeah it is
<daftykins> i'd hate to be picking and choosing food
<EriC^^> yup, and like 20% of people get it i think
<EriC^^> let the food downing begin :D
<EriC^^> are you gaming much?
<EriC^^> did you check out the last guardian by any chance?
<daftykins> not hugely, been replaying Mass Effect 2 a little bit recently
<daftykins> i watched some twitch streamers play Last Guardian yeah, but it doesn't strike me as being much fun
<EriC^^> cool
<EriC^^> yeah me too, it seems so-so
<EriC^^> i'll probably get it though, i really enjoyed shadow of the collosus back on the ps2
<EriC^^> it's sort of soothing and climbing around giants was pretty fun
<daftykins> ah i had friends that played that and Iko (sp) but i never saw either
<EriC^^> i dont feel like solving the puzzles though, they seemed pretty cumbersome in some youtube videos i watched
<EriC^^> shadow of collosus is probably one of my favorite games on ps2
<EriC^^> i played it though when i used to smoke a lot of weed
<EriC^^> lol so that could have been a factor
<EriC^^> not sure how much i'd like the last guardian but it seems ok i guess, not a lot of releases have been fun on the ps4, i have like 9 games i bought and just finished uncharted 4 and tomb raider that's all
<EriC^^> no man's sky was a huge meh
<daftykins> :)
<EriC^^> i wish they'd make games like zelda and more nintendo'y games
<daftykins> NMS probably will become like everyone wanted it to be in time
<daftykins> i'd imagine the devs got plenty of money to keep going with it!
<EriC^^> yup
<EriC^^> i read that final fantasy got a really good review
<EriC^^> i've never played one before
<daftykins> nor me, years and years ago i found a coverdisc demo of Final Fantasy VII on PC - and since my friends at school were talking about it, i tried it out
<daftykins> you started as a chracter walking along a sunny, green path up to an old man... then as you got close you were suddenly transported to a cave fighting some weird creature
<daftykins> i quit it right away :P just seemed silly
<EriC^^> lol
<EriC^^> :D
<EriC^^> how's work been?
<daftykins> a few little bits going on, still trying to work out why the first 4K bluray we tried on my clients new TV went out of sync
<EriC^^> aha
<daftykins> he's kindly let me use one of his bathrooms whilst my house is a mess, so when i went up for a shower yesterday i put the same film on again (Everest) and yep, yet again it went out of sync about 65 minutes in
<daftykins> i might just take the films back
<daftykins> needs another one tested really :>
<EriC^^> yup
<BluesKaj> daftykins, what audio codec did the 4K bluray use ?
<daftykins> Dolby Atmos on them now
<daftykins> i'm not sure which other formats it can switch down to, though
<daftykins> PCs can't do anything with the new discs yet
<BluesKaj> ok, I'm kind of setup for Dolby Atmos , my surround speakers are placed on high shelves facing the ceiling.
<BluesKaj> gives more ambience
<daftykins> just need an AV receiver that supports it, supports HDMI 2.0 with HDCP 2.2 - a 4K bluray player and a 4K TV also with HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 :)
<daftykins> pretty sure the display was actually reading "Dolby TrueHD with Dolby Surround" during playback though
<daftykins> might be that it only uses Atmos if you have all the channels hooked up, he has a 5.1 setup there
<BluesKaj> right, that's my setup ..5.1, altho my subwoofer has seen better days , my mains go just as deep in the bas , but with better definition than the sub, just not as loud
<BluesKaj> bas=bass
<daftykins> :>
<daftykins> i need to work out how to configure his a bit better, the sub is at 50% volume and is ridiculously overpowered at the moment. a dial on the side shows it's set to "90Hz" so i assume i need to set crossover to 90Hz on the AVR too
<BluesKaj> well, that makes for a steeper drop in upper bass response which can cause phase troubles with a hole in the middle effect
<BluesKaj> but room placement has more effect than anything , it's a tricky thing
<daftykins> best i configure it right in case there's any potential for damage, though i doubt that's possible
<daftykins> maybe it just needs the sub's volume dropped to 25% then it'll be bearable, bit of a room shaker at the moment :)
<BluesKaj> that's what subs are supposed to do, altho they shoudn't overwhelm the rest of the sounds
<daftykins> mmm because my client never gets much time to make use of it, it's never been properly set up by the guy that put it in
<daftykins> now i've taken it over and put the new TV, AVR and 4K bluray in i've had a chance to configure them from scratch
<BluesKaj> right
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-01-21
<lotuspsychje> good (cold) morning to all
<lotuspsychje> morning KingsQuest
<lotuspsychje> laterz guys, working day
<ducasse> morning all
<lordievader> Good morning.
<BluesKaj> Howdy all
<Bashing-om> Ok IT is a Satura-day, and what does a ubuntu-geek do on a Saturday ? But see what he can fix on some one's 'buntu :)
<daftykins> >:D
#ubuntu-discuss 2017-01-22
<Bashing-om> !info linux-image-generic trusty
<ubot5> linux-image-generic (source: linux-meta): Generic Linux kernel image. In component main, is optional. Version 3.13.0.107.115 (trusty), package size 2 kB, installed size 30 kB
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<ducasse> \o
<lotuspsychje> hey hey ducasse
<ducasse> morning, lotuspsychje - how are you?
<lotuspsychje> great here, what about you?
<lotuspsychje> working day later on
<ducasse> good, i think - still tired :)
<lotuspsychje> :p long night?
<ducasse> no, just not awake yet :)
 * lotuspsychje slides over a hot belgian coffee
<ducasse> :)
<ducasse> when do you start work today?
<lotuspsychje> 12
<lotuspsychje> late shift
<lotuspsychje> till 18h today
<ducasse> good, not too early :)
<lotuspsychje> yeah time for rich breakfast
<ducasse> go eat, i need to check my email
<lotuspsychje> okay :p
<EriC^^> hey ducasse
<ducasse> \o EriC^^
<BluesKaj> Hiyas folks
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-01-15
<nicomachus> testing
<nicomachus> boo
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<nicomachus> o/
<lotuspsychje> hey nicomachus
<lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
<lotuspsychje> hi oerheks
<nicomachus> lotuspsychje: do you use irssi?
<lotuspsychje> no sorry nicomachus want me to test something?
<nicomachus> nah, just having some issues with a config thing
<lotuspsychje> kk
<lotuspsychje> im on hex
<oerheks> folder names with spaces, retarded
<oerheks> who invented that?
<nicomachus> some nerd name Bill
<nicomachus> he writes his directory paths with escape characters too
<nicomachus> C:\Documents\Worst Path Naming System Ever\This works?.xlsx
<nicomachus> but also, that person really needs to take a basics course.
<lotuspsychje> crowdy in main omg
<nicomachus> lotuspsychje: got right-aligned nicks and colors figured out in irssi: https://i.imgur.com/GeVw81q.png
<lotuspsychje> nicomachus: looks neat mate
<lotuspsychje> its like that solarized theme nice
<nicomachus> the colors are just random for now, I still need to do some customization there.
<lotuspsychje> i always set green on black
<lotuspsychje> terminals, irc
<nicomachus> too matrix-y for me.
<nicomachus> I like a nice slate/dark grey with a blue-white text
<nicomachus> and pastel colors
<lotuspsychje> neat
<alkisg> Good morning guys :)
<nicomachus> easy on the eyes.
<nicomachus> good... almost midnight
<lotuspsychje> hey alkisg
<oerheks> i want a script that searches history for ip / name /changes
<oerheks> :_D
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> .find troll
<lotuspsychje> ....loading up troll database
<oerheks> found: slagroomsoesjes
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> i had an ubuntu box yesterday with 3.13 kernel saying it was up to date
<lotuspsychje> 16.04.3
<nicomachus> was it connected to a network?
<lotuspsychje> yes
<lotuspsychje> tryed update, full-upgrade
<lotuspsychje> !info linux-image-generic trusty
<ubot5> linux-image-generic (source: linux-meta): Generic Linux kernel image. In component main, is optional. Version 3.13.0.139.148 (trusty), package size 2 kB, installed size 31 kB
<lotuspsychje> this one i think
<EriC^^> hey lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
<oerheks> is it a bird ?.. is it a plane? .. no it is super EriC^^
<EriC^^> lol
<lotuspsychje> lol
<EriC^^> hey oerheks :P
<oerheks> wayland and nautilus issue, grinn
<lotuspsychje> saw a bitcoin docu yesterday
<EriC^^> lotuscompu ;)
<oerheks> i give 14 cents for 1 bitcoin
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> oerheks: just enough to buy a roomsoesje?
<nicomachus> i'll give you 15
<oerheks> deal!
<oerheks> see, that is how you make money, lotus
<lotuspsychje> hahaha
 * lotuspsychje dcc send bitcoin to oerheks.roomsoesje.nl
<lordievader> Good morning
<lotuspsychje> hey lordievader
<lotuspsychje> welcome to crowdy morning
<lordievader> Hey  lotuspsychje
<lordievader> How are you doing?
<lotuspsychje> great here tnx
<oerheks> not great at all, still waiting for slagroomsoesjes :-(
<oerheks> hi lordievader :-D
<lordievader> oerheks: From whom?
<oerheks> from lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> its happy hour in main
<lotuspsychje> soon we will have our 2000 users back
<ducasse> good morning, all
<oerheks> And there is ducasse \0/
<ducasse> hi oerheks :)
<lotuspsychje> hey ducasse
<oerheks> 2nd program that does not work on wayland, 0AD
<lordievader> Not even with XWayland?
<lotuspsychje> its full of it
<oerheks> the Xorg version? not tried yet
<oerheks> i installed the snap version, now installing repo version
<lordievader> oerheks: https://wayland.freedesktop.org/xserver.html
<oerheks> regular 0ad works fine, it is a snap thingy
<lotuspsychje> think i have seen few snaps/wayland bugs
<lotuspsychje> disformed icons, launch broken,e.
<jink> Whazzaaaaaaaaaaaaah
<lotuspsychje> bbl work
<oerheks> something wrong with the wiki, https://imgur.com/a/gsiwt
<oerheks> photobocket issue
<Ben64> photobocket sucks
<alkisg> Heh, why don't they upload the screenshots to the wiki itself?
<Ben64> does it allow that
<alkisg> We have a wiki that doesn't allow screenshots? Omg...
<Ben64> idk, haven't tried
<Ben64> i do have edit access though
<Ben64> can't seem to find a copy of the image as it was
<oerheks> nope :-(
<Ben64> well, time to make new ones :D
<Ben64> ew, can't open gparted on 18.04
<oerheks> hmmm here too
<oerheks> err, on 17.10/weeehlund
<Ben64> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowtoPartition/PartitioningBasics
<Ben64> page 1 done
<oerheks> :-)
<Ben64> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowtoPartition/CreatingPartitions page 2
<Ben64> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowtoPartition/ResizingPartition 3
<Ben64> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowtoPartition/ExtendedPartition 4!
<Ben64> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HowtoPartition/MovingPartition done
<BluesKaj> Howdy all
<lordievader> ð
<BluesKaj> ð
<pauljw> hi everyone
<oerheks> heya paul
<oerheks> http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/detroit-auto-show/a14783936/2019-ford-mustang-bullitt-debut-photos-specs-price/
<BluesKaj> 'Morning pauljw
<pauljw> hi BluesKaj, oerheks :)
<oerheks> i miss hood-clips, are those optional, pauljw ?
<pauljw> nice Mustang! I don't know if Ford offers hood pins as an option or not.  Dodge does for their Challenger either factory/dealer installed or a kit to do it yourself.  i installed mine myself.
<oerheks> someone sold me bitcoins for 14 cents/each, maybe i' ll buy 2
<oerheks> oh wait, i sold them for 15 ct to nicomachus :-(
<pauljw> :)
<pauljw> this one makes me happy: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/detroit-auto-show/a14783721/2019-ford-ranger-debut-release-date-specs/
<pauljw> i love my '03 Ranger Edge and couldn't believe it when Ford stopped production in N. America.
<oerheks> Where do i buy a driving-license?
<BluesKaj> oerheks, heh, you need to pass drivers tests first
<oerheks> :-(
<oerheks> but.. i am 50+
<pauljw> that's not old...
<oerheks> Then they start: sure, you will be soon driving ' again'
<steveoy> hello
<daftykins> hi
<steveoy> i want to suggest an ubuntu development code but i can't seem to edit the wiki page
<steveoy> is there anyone here who can
<steveoy> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelopmentCodeNames#Code_Name_Suggestions
<steveoy> i made an account but it says immutable page
<daftykins> must be they don't want help
<steveoy> :(
<steveoy> they seemed to want it until 17.04
<steveoy> 17.10*
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-01-16
<Bashing-om> !zesty
<ubot5> Ubuntu 17.04 (Zesty Zapus) was the 26th release of Ubuntu. Support ended on January 13th, 2017. See !eol and !eolupgrade
<Ben64> dude didn't even suggest a code name
<EriC^^> cats screatching today
<EriC^^> guess it's that time of the year
<alkisg> Good morning guys
<oerheks> hi alkisg :-)
<EriC^^> morning alkisg
<EriC^^> oerheks o/
<oerheks> hi EriC^^
<oerheks> nice weather comming up .. https://www.buienradar.nl/wereldwijd/europa/7daagse/wind
 * oerheks grabs fresh coffee
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<alkisg> Good morning lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> hey hey alkisg
<lordievader> Good morning
<lotuspsychje> hey lordievader
<lotuspsychje> lets c whats new on ubuntu news
<lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje How are you doing?
<lotuspsychje> all ok here lordievader and you on train?
<lordievader> Nope.
<lordievader> The [m] is for Matrix ð
<lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/ubuntu-18-04-lts-wallpaper-contest-welcomes-talented-photographs-and-artists-519384.shtml
<lotuspsychje> one for you lordievader http://news.softpedia.com/news/kde-plasma-5-12-lts-enters-beta-brings-unified-look-and-phone-integration-519376.shtml
<lordievader> I saw that this morning. Now all I have to do is wait until it is in the portage tree ð
<lotuspsychje> :p
<lordievader> Newest is currently 5.11.5
<lordievader> Hmm, perhaps I should update.
<lotuspsychje> hey oerheks
<lordievader> lotuspsychje: what is in store for you today?
<lotuspsychje> lordievader: work : (
<lordievader> Computer shop work or other kind of work?
<lotuspsychje> lordievader: dont have proper time anymore
<lotuspsychje> lordievader: my collegue is pregnant, gotta do more hours
<lordievader> Ah, that sucks.
<lotuspsychje> yeah
<lotuspsychje> i might consider a new job again
<lotuspsychje> to combine with
<lotuspsychje> its always the same with jobs..they promise few hours and they end up asking more and more
<Bashing-om> g nite \o
<lotuspsychje> bye Bashing-om
<Bashing-om> Take care lotuspsychje :) .. see ya on my flip :)
<lotuspsychje> laterz mate
<lotuspsychje> alkisg: omg..
<alkisg> :)
<alkisg> Social education is sometimes part of technical support :D
<lotuspsychje> jesus
<alkisg> OK, I want to report flannel
<alkisg> He's helping someone that isn't using ubuntu packages, while discouraging persons that tried to help
<lotuspsychje> alkisg: flannel is an operator
<alkisg> Right, and I want to report him
<lotuspsychje> ok there is a trigger for that
<alkisg> Then, I'll leave #ubuntu for always, but currently I want to report him
<lotuspsychje> lemme lookup alkisg
<lotuspsychje> !appeal | alkisg
<ubot5> alkisg: If you disagree with a decision by an operator, please first pay #ubuntu-ops a visit. If you are still unhappy, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/AppealProcess for the steps you should take. If you feel the need to discuss the channel rules, please contact the ops on IRC or via the email address on the aforementioned page.
<alkisg> lotuspsychje: I've reported it to #ubuntu-ops, where Flannel currently also is
<lotuspsychje> alkisg: genii is the guy you also need to mention this
<ducasse> good morning, everyone
<lotuspsychje> hey ducasse
<ducasse> hi lotuspsychje - how are you today?
<lotuspsychje> great here and you ducasse
<ducasse> i'm fine, but there's a *ton* of snow outside - the veranda is almost buried :)
<lotuspsychje> wow
<lotuspsychje> we have rain all week
<ducasse> lotuspsychje: https://photos.app.goo.gl/GTujVCNT5nS5ronx1
<lotuspsychje> lets c :p
<lotuspsychje> ducasse: wtf!
<oerheks> send us some snow!
<lotuspsychje> plenty of room there oerheks !
<lotuspsychje> roomsoesje
<oerheks> sens us some roomsoesjes, yeah
<lotuspsychje> https://www.leukerecepten.nl/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/zelfgemaakte_soesjes.jpg
<lotuspsychje> they smile at you
<ducasse> you can have as much snow as you want, oerheks - drabber would disappear here if you took him for a walk
<oerheks> ducasse, i know, this is a dated movie from Pien & Jet ( before Drabber was born)  https://www.dropbox.com/s/varwnie8eih21vh/CIMG0268.AVI?dl=0
<oerheks> they loved it
<ducasse> looks like they were having fun :)
<oerheks> jups, 1st snow since years, but i made a path to the supermarket, before i walked with them
<ducasse> today luna wouldn't even go on the veranda, she just climbed out the window and walked a few steps, then backed back inside
<lordievader> ducasse: That is quite a bit of snow... can we trade our grey and rainy weather for you snow?
<oerheks> yay lordievader, my idea also
<oerheks> 10 inch of snow is really good for soil to prepare for the spring
<ducasse> lordievader: it's grey here as well, so some snow for some rain seems like a fair deal
<lordievader> Hmm... you can keep that grey and rain.
<lordievader> We don't want that.
<lordievader> ð
<ducasse> on top of this it's supposed to keep snowing heavily all day, maybe longer
<lotuspsychje> bbl work guys
<lotuspsychje> have a nice day
<oerheks> Done some homework, things i miss on a fresh 17.10 install >> https://paste.ubuntu.com/26396586/
<oerheks> but nautilus does not work, har har
<ProDG> hola
<ProDG> guys, long time ago i used to run any gui-apps from terminal like @ startx bla-bla-bla
<ProDG> how to do it now?
<BluesKaj> Hi folks
<oerheks> never been that way with startx
<oerheks> don' t run gui aps from terminal, as terinal closes, the apps do too
<ProDG> it was
<ProDG> about 3-5 years ago i had installed X
<ProDG> but used console in common
<oerheks> ' startx'  was the way to start the desktop, not a gui-program
<ProDG> if i need gui
<ProDG> i used @startx chromium-browser              for example
<ProDG> and i had chromium only in X
<oerheks> sudo service lightdm start
<oerheks> and hit ctrl alt F7
<ProDG> it will start lightdm
<ProDG> but need X directly with app
<ProDG> only
<ProDG> without any pannels
<ProDG> and without menu
<oerheks> and what linux was that?
<BluesKaj> purist
<BluesKaj> Hi oerheks
<ProDG> ))
<oerheks> hi BluesKaj, do you have any essential tools to add? https://paste.ubuntu.com/26396586/
<BluesKaj> oerheks, not really, looks like you have the essentials covered
<oerheks> thnx
<oerheks> there might be more tools, for git, and more for packaging, but i don' t need those
<BluesKaj> git is a last resort, for me at leat
<BluesKaj> ;east
<BluesKaj> oops need more light
<BluesKaj> 'Morning pauljw
<pauljw> hi BluesKaj :)
<pauljw> hi everyone
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-01-17
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
<EriC^^> hey lotuspsychje
<EriC^^> what's up?
<lotuspsychje> chill & coffee :p
<ducasse> good morning, everyone
<lotuspsychje> hey ducasse
<Bashing-om> Outta here .. see yall next \o
<lordievader> Good morning
<oerheks> :-)
<lordievader> Hey oerheks
<lordievader> How are you doing?
<oerheks> hi lordievader
<oerheks> we are fine, just had breakfast
<lordievader> Does it snow there too? I think ducasse is trying to move something.
<lotuspsychje> hey lordievader
<lordievader> Hey lotuspsychje
<lordievader> How are you?
<oerheks> oops
<lotuspsychje> hey oerheks
<lotuspsychje> all good here guys tnx
<lordievader> ð
<oerheks> And you guys, surviving the nice weather?
<lotuspsychje> here bit rainy
<lordievader> Doing good here. Last 10 second of the ride to work it started to snow.
<lotuspsychje> ouch
<ducasse> finally stopped snowing here
<lordievader> How much is there now? From the ground to the roof?
<lotuspsychje> lordievader: https://photos.app.goo.gl/GTujVCNT5nS5ronx1
<lotuspsychje> bigggg snow at ducasse place lol
<lordievader> Nice photo ð
<ducasse> we actually got even more after that - that was taken in the morning and it snowed heavily all day :)
<lordievader> How high does it reach now?
<ducasse> on average, i'd say well above my knees. the veranda is all but buried, and that's over a meter.
<lordievader> Hahaha, nice
<oerheks> grinn, looks like #ubuntu https://www.sinn-frei.com/media/2018/27737_009.jpg
<lotuspsychje> bbl work
<lotuspsychje> have nice snowday :p
<lordievader> You too
<lotuspsychje> tnx
<lordievader> oerheks: Hahaha, nice one
<oerheks> bitcoin @ 10K now :-D
<BluesKaj> Howdy folks
<lordievader> ð
<lordievader> How are you doing BluesKaj ?
<BluesKaj> Hi lordievader, fine here, how about you?
<lordievader> Doing allright. Trying to optimize a parsing script.
<jimb_> Hey there
<pauljw> hi everyone
<BluesKaj> 'Morning pauljw, jimb_
<pauljw> hey BluesKaj :)
<TJ-> oerheks: might be worth getting sruli to try with a new user account - could be user-profile specific
<oerheks> ah, good ide
<lotuspsychje> hey guys
<lotuspsychje> JanC: nice app you made vrt nws
<lotuspsychje> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/01/librem-5-update-i-mx8
<kkremitzki> I'm looking forward to my Librem 5
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: your gonna buy it?
<kkremitzki> I already did sort of
<lotuspsychje> cool
<kkremitzki> I was one of the full phone backers on the crowdfunding campaign
<kkremitzki> Just gotta hope my Nexus 6P makes it another year
<lotuspsychje> im happy with my bq 4.5 ubports
<lotuspsychje> and with anbox support comming up
<lotuspsychje> curious how that will go
<lotuspsychje> !info popularity-contest
<ubot5> popularity-contest (source: popularity-contest): Vote for your favourite packages automatically. In component main, is standard. Version 1.64ubuntu2 (artful), package size 32 kB, installed size 115 kB
<kkremitzki> I have a nexus 5 running ubports as well that does decently, but I don't have actual cell service with it, only wifi, so I am not really seeing the full experience
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: not handy then
<kkremitzki> It's just an experimental device for me
<lotuspsychje> bit pricy for just an experiment?
<kkremitzki> Well, it was my old main phone but the screen cracked to the point where it was dicey to carry around
<lotuspsychje> ah i see :=p
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: did they not made it stable yet for nexus5?
<kkremitzki> It was very unfortunate, I was sitting on a concrete curb and it fell out of my jacket maybe 2 feet but at just the right angle to really mangle it
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: wich channel is running on it?
<kkremitzki> I'll have to boot it and check, not sure
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: ive had to change to devel on all devices myself
<kkremitzki> As far as I know I'm running the standard install but it's having some problems (likely related to charger port damage)
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: https://ubports.com/page/convergence
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: you could try change it to devel channel
<nicomachus> https://itsfoss.com/goobuntu-glinux-google/
<lotuspsychje> yeah just read it nicomachus
<kkremitzki> nice lotuspsychje looks like they've improved their website since I saw it last
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: yeah, i had some issues on my phone first, but change to devel solved alot
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: also idle in #ubports it has like 1200 telegram members already
<kkremitzki> Looks like my charging port has finally more or less bit the dust so I had to go find my qi charger because the phone kept dying before it could boot
<lotuspsychje> ic
<lotuspsychje> hey BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> hey lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: one for you http://news.softpedia.com/news/kubuntu-17-10-and-18-04-users-can-now-try-the-kde-plasma-5-12-lts-desktop-519401.shtml
<BluesKaj> lotuspsychje, yeah installed it early this morning https://kubuntu.org/news/plasma-5-12-lts-beta-available-ppa-for-testing-on-artful-bionic/
<lotuspsychje> cool
<BluesKaj> just on Artful so far, haven't tried Bionic yet
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: in this stage bionic pretty same as artful
<BluesKaj> bionic is still slow here, needs some help
<BluesKaj> was reluctant to install plasma 5.12 on Bionic , but here goes, BBIAB
<kkremitzki> lotuspsychje: Are you on 15.04/devel or is 16.04 available yet
<lotuspsychje> 15.04
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: but they are testing xenial on it also
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: ask about it in ubports
<lotuspsychje> kkremitzki: you can change to devel from your existing install in options
<lotuspsychje> welcome gunix
<gunix> thank you
<gunix> regarding ubuntu: do you use citrix or vpn? what tool do you use for chat? do you have any sort of LDAP?  can you install any distro you want on your device? do you get a device from the company?
<daftykins> you're talking about technologies but not actually starting with what you want to be able to do
<daftykins> it's like asking steel, aluminium or iron when the query should be "i want to cross this river"
<lotuspsychje_> hey daftykins
<gunix> lotuspsychje_: did you get my questions or did you disconnect? :D
<lotuspsychje_> i was dc yeah
<gunix> and there you go
<gunix> =))
<gunix> ok, so asking again
<lotuspsychje_> still here
<gunix> regarding ubuntu: do you use citrix or vpn? what tool do you use for chat? do you have any sort of LDAP?  can you install any distro you want on your device? do you get a device from the company?
<gunix> well, it's more regarding canonical i guess ^^
<lotuspsychje_> !info hexchat | gunix
<ubot5> gunix: hexchat (source: hexchat): IRC client for X based on X-Chat 2. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.12.4-5build2 (artful), package size 336 kB, installed size 1009 kB
<daftykins> gunix: see above
<lotuspsychje_> oh thats to nacc you gotta ask
<gunix> lotuspsychje_: so you don't use any tool for screen sharing?
<lotuspsychje_> im just a user here
<gunix> oh ok
<gunix> ok ok
<gunix> well if nacc is kind enough to answer ^^ if he can provide the info
<daftykins> i already pointed out your query doesn't make a lot of sense
<lotuspsychje_> gunix: why are you interested if your not gonna apply for a job?
<gunix> daftykins: it's part of a discussion i started with nacc on another channel, regarding how canonical treats it's employees. the subject was offtopic for that channel so i moved here
<gunix> lotuspsychje_: did you ever have an ugly girlfriend? you still watch other girls, even if you don't want to cheat or dump her ... did that ever happen to you?
<lordievader> ./me is also lost as to what gunix wants to know
<gunix> lordievader, daftykins: do you work at canonical?
<daftykins> no.
<gunix> than you can't answer the questions :D
<daftykins> why are you asking?
<gunix> i wrote above, in an aswer towards lotuspsychje_
<lotuspsychje_> i dont see the matches about canonical and and ugle gf?
<gunix> well canonical is not the ugly gf
<gunix> canonical is the good looking girl
<gunix> my company is the ugly gf
<gunix> which i can't quit
<daftykins> i don't think you should use an example like that online
<daftykins> bound to ruffle many feathers :)
<lotuspsychje_> gunix: if you dream about canonical, go for it?
<gunix> daftykins: i can't work on linux, i have to work on windows, skype is the only chat tool, citrix is mandatory and you can't use vpn instead. so the security is not based on ssh keys, it's based on passwords and AD. i guess you understand my frustration and my curiosity now
<gunix> lotuspsychje_: i can't quit atm. there are also no linux companies in my city, or in my country ^^ there are however companies using linux, where i would feel a lot better regarding used technologies
<lotuspsychje_> gunix: browse the homebased jobs, see what your good in, apply for one?
<daftykins> all i understand is you're in the wrong place :)
<gunix> daftykins: i am trying to push open source here. if it doesn't work, i will probably leave after i give it by best shot
<pauljw> kinda preaching to the choir
<gunix> what? how?
<pauljw> sorry, i saw pushing here, but you didn't mean here here, you meant here there...
<gunix> :))
<lotuspsychje_> lol
<daftykins> hear hear!
<pauljw> :)
<pauljw> that's what i get for only seeing part of the conversation...
<lotuspsychje_> hehe
<lotuspsychje_> check the logs pauljw ...:p
<lotuspsychje_> its all in the logs
<lotuspsychje_> ./var/log/ubuntu-discuss
<gunix> he got the picture now
<lotuspsychje_> oh..my bad
<pauljw> yeah, i get what he's talking about now.
<lotuspsychje_> gunix: i hear at google they can use the swimming pool also
<lotuspsychje_> splendid for a work-brake
<pauljw> i think it's great that you are trying, gunix, but i don't think i'd leave a job over their choice of software.  i like to eat too much.
<gunix> pauljw: and i like to sleep at night. how can money be good, if i feel morally dissapointed about myself?
<daftykins> ah i'd hate putting in stuff i didn't believe in, day after day - that's why i don't - am self employed and use the technologies i want :)
<gunix> pauljw: everything i got now, my job, my money, my opportunities ... i have all this because there were people in the open source community ready to help me without asking anything in return. i had the software, the support, the friends to push me... and they did it for open source. how could I, in return, work for some people that promote propriatary software? it would mean i give nothing back,
<gunix> except a greater challenge to overcome, by promoting other technologies
<lotuspsychje_> tv time, ttyl
<pauljw> later lotuspsychje_
<lotuspsychje_> laterz ; )
<daftykins> right tools for the job, that's all that matters - not all that
<pauljw> all you can do is look for something that meets your standards i suppose.  good luck because as you say, they're few and far between.  there's a rock quarry over here that's always hiring you just need to learn to drive a truck, swing a sledge or pick and work in all kinds of weather.  :)
<gunix> yea ...
<gunix> yea so nacc is offline ... anybody else working at canonical? :D
<daftykins> i don't think they would discuss their infrastructure
<gunix> why not?
<daftykins> you are a random on the internet
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-01-18
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Bashing-om> And that all for me folks - g nite \o
<lotuspsychje> nite nite
<ducasse> good morning, all
<lordievader> Good morning
<lordievader> Hey ducasse lotuspsychje
<lordievader> How are you today?
<lotuspsychje> hey lordievader
<lotuspsychje> storm here 100km/h
<ducasse> morning, lordievader - all well, how are you?
<lordievader> Doing good here ð
<jink> Excellent.
<BluesKaj> Howdy folks
<EriC^^> hey BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> Hi EriC^^
<jimb_> Morning yo!
<BluesKaj> 'Morning jimb_
<jimb_> Hiya BluesKaj  having a great morning so far?
<BluesKaj> jimb_, yup, just about have my 2nd coffee, quiet and relaxing here :-)
<BluesKaj> how about you ?
<jimb_> Lucky you! I make coffee, but I often forget to get a cup... thanks for the reminder... heading to the kitchen now! :)
<BluesKaj> gotta have that coffee ;-)
<jimb_> I used to easily drink 2 pots/day... now I am lucky to drink 1 cup/day. Generally get all caught up in things and forget until it's cold. Today is not one of those days though.
<BluesKaj> good
<BluesKaj> I restrict my coffee intake to 2 mugs per day ...used to be a heavy cofee drinker when i was still working , but retirement and age made me change my habits
<jimb_> It's been the opposite for me, somewhat... less work = more coffee... more work = coffee? Who has time for coffee?! lol.
<jimb_> How's retirement treating you? I sure hope it's been nice!
<BluesKaj> it's been great, no complaints
<jimb_> Very glad to hear it.
<BluesKaj>  jimb_ you in Michigan,? I'm in Ontario
<jimb_> BluesKaj, Well, hello my Canadian neighbor!
<jimb_> Michiganders are brothers to our friends in the North (or east)
<BluesKaj> yup, I'm NE, about 160mi east of the "the Soo"
<BluesKaj> jimb_, aka Sault Ste Marie
<jimb_> Sweet. I have spent a fair amount of time in your land, almost always been beautiful and peaceful. Oddest thing though, I gave some street kid $0.25 once in the subway and the cops talked to me about it, warned that it was not good and they needed to make sure I wasn't promised drugs in return... otherwise always fun!
<BluesKaj> reallt? that's strange alright
<BluesKaj> really?
<jimb_> Yeah. That's what I thought. Yeah, really.
<jimb_> I say "subway" but the train was above-ground. I took it pretty far east, I don't remember the name of the city I was going to, but it was to meet up with some people about Blackberry, I guess they had an office there.
<BluesKaj> my 2 daughters live I Toronto, one uses public transit every day and there's akways street musicians and panhandlers in the subway , but the cops usually don't bother them or those who throw them a a buck or 2
<jimb_> This was literally a street kid who came up and asked for change... so I gave him what I had. I too have never seen performers bothered.
<jimb_> That is very much UNLIKE Ann Arbor, a nearby town here... too many street kids... they get bothered all the time. It's a college town and has drop-outs and what-not that didn't leave.
<BluesKaj> right, I've been thru Ann Arbor, my son and sister live across the river in Windsor
<jimb_> To keep this on-topic... I had my laptop (almost exclusively running Ubuntu) with me, since it was a work thing.
<jimb_> Windsor is OK. Too many American tourists though, lol.
<BluesKaj> heh, that damn casino ....
<jimb_> I spent a fair amount of my years between 19-21 in Windsor... given the different drinking age from here
<BluesKaj> yeah, so you were at a blackberry office...what did they think of ubuntu ?
<jimb_> They were basically like... "What is this? Is that Windows?" lol.
<jimb_> This was around the time of the Palm Pre and Pixi
<BluesKaj> that's kind oif surprising since the founder of RIM/Blackberry graduated from Waterloo U which has ubuntu mirrors in their server system
<jimb_> So... I was probably running something like 8.04
<jimb_> Yeah, well, Blackberry wasn't the smartest bunch. I think they had some great people up top, not so great lower making important decisions.
<jimb_> For example... instead of having air compressors in one of the refurb labs, they had big air tanks brought in every so often with inert gas. I can only imagine how expensive that was... purpose, to reduce the noise of an air compressor?!
<BluesKaj> ok, think they rested on their laurels too long and didn't innovate and adjust, thereby they were left behind in the dust
<jimb_> I dunno if you ever had to, but I had to install and manage a Blackberry Enterprise Server... it was ridiculous that I needed that simply to perform some mundane tasks related to refurbishing units that had been on an enterprise system.
<jimb_> Yeah, they had a really innovative and unique product early on... then they became obsolete :(
<BluesKaj> however they are making a bit of a comeback with their self driving vehicle software QNX
<jimb_> I remember QNX, before Blackberry was involved with it, I should still have an ISO or two laying around in the archives. Decent OS.
<BluesKaj> no longer a HW company. concentrating on software now
<jimb_> Very purpose driven. Man, I wish Palm had succeeded with the Pre. I think if they had (since it was a GNU/Linux type system) we would have more available Ubuntu phones today.
<BluesKaj> think they bought the company that created QNX or something , not sure
<jimb_> Yeah, pretty sure they bought them as when I was involved they were distinct companies.
<BluesKaj> not big phone user, I make calls and take a few pics on mine that's about all
<jimb_> I worked in the industry for nearly a decade, so... I hate phones now, lol
<BluesKaj> heh
<jimb_> If I'm honest, I hated phones prior too, I was always more of a PDA person. Then I was given a springboard to turn my PDA into a smartphone... and my world changed. But I still hated the "phone" aspect
<BluesKaj> guess tablets have become the PDAs of this day and age
<jimb_> Yeah, pretty much. I fear the general populace will forget all of the things Palm did in laying the groundwork for what we take for granted today. Then again, such is the norm for us humans.
<BluesKaj> afraid so
<jimb_> I felt awestruck the other day when I realized that my children are growing up in the world where they talk to computers for simple tasks... like "Alexa, set a 15 minute timer" or "Alexa, order paper towels"... they have no idea what a wristwatch even is.
<BluesKaj> I'm an old windows guy, used the OSs on the job since the early 90s , but i didn't really discover linux until after retirement when computers sort of became a hobby , think the Knoppix live cd was my first encounter with Linux. Then I began in earnest in 2005 with Kubuntu
<jimb_> Cool, I remember Knoppix. I was also a Windows user in the 90's... in the late 90's I was formally introduced to Unix/Xenix/etc.
<jimb_> Actually, I guess it was the early 90s for Unix... then Xenix/etc came later.
 * BluesKaj nods
<jimb_> How are you liking Linux in general compared to Windows?
<daftykins> much preferred what Psion did :)
<BluesKaj> haven't used windows seriously since '05 , dual booted for a while but i don't even bother with VMs anymore
<jimb_> daftykins, Really? I haven't had much interaction with Psion equipment, possibly due to the waters between us.
<jimb_> BluesKaj, I hear you on that... once I decided to ditch Windows... it was an easy affair. I do miss Notepad++ some... but not even enough to keep using it via Wine... that stopped years ago.
<BluesKaj> I'm also testing Kubuntu 18.04 Bionic  ...been a tester for 7 or 8 yrs now, but that's about as deep as my interest and knowledge allow
<BluesKaj> tried wine a few times , was always clunky to me
<jimb_> Ah. I was developing for a Linux based product and figured if the product lived in this space, then so should I... of course this is after years of on-and-off use for work anyway.
<BluesKaj> ok  ...bbiab
<jimb_> k
<jimb_> daftykins, After looking, makes me wonder if my Compaq C140's weren't simply re-branded Psion devices
<daftykins> hrmm not familiar with those, loved my little 3c... just found it the other day in fact, but the rubberised casing has gone all sticky and horrible.
<daftykins> for me, it was a way of getting a portable computer as a kid when laptops were still insanely expensive, back in late the 90s :)
<jimb_> Yeah, possibly used acetyl based rubber... goes off after a while
<daftykins> i had seen about cleaning it up with acetone or isopropanol, but the result is expected to look very ugly
<jimb_> The C140 is kind of like the 5mx... but less focus on having a useful keyboard
<jimb_> Ah, the late 90's laptop... back when companies like Zenith were still in the game
<jimb_> I had a TRS-80 model 102 way back when.
<pauljw> hi everyone
<BluesKaj> 'Morning pauljw
<pauljw> good morning BluesKaj :)
<Bashing-om> 'Morning - ready to have fun now :)
<oerheks> are you *really* really ready ?
<oerheks> hi Bashing-om
<Bashing-om> oerheks: :) .. Well, I would hazard to think I am ready .
<lotuspsychje> good evening to all
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: :) Slow day ?
<lotuspsychje> hey there Bashing-om dont know, was working :p
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Work can be good :P
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: 1539 users! we need to get to work lol
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Moar helpers, please :)
<jer> zomaar, yo
<zomaar> yo
<zomaar> Yes the works for me attitudes
<zomaar> I mean, yes sociological problems.
<zomaar> I regularly debate people who think usability should come last
<zomaar> When all other problems have been fixed
<zomaar> Then you spend time on the interface
<jer> right. being paid to work on something also doesn't change it; often times engineering teams (full disclosure i'm a vp of engineering at my current company) are structured around solving technological problems, rather than wholistically... because you can move faster with a leaner focus -- however it doesn't end up producing a better product. individual people working in open source aren't immune to
<jer> these phenominon either
<jer> software quality improves the more you understand and accept (not just as someone else's valid problem, but as a problem you own)
<jer> that it's in your best interests to solve it
<zomaar> Yes ownership
<zomaar> Exactly yes
<jer> people put more attention to detail in it. so when folks are grabbing bugs off a bug tracker just at random to "level up" their clout in a community
<jer> you are not going to get quality work out of that group over time
<jer> i'm not saying it won't happen, i'm just saying the odds of it are significantly reduced when you see a bug as a means to an end
<zomaar> My original statement was that if those people would spend that little extra, it would return to them because they have to spend less time on support
<jer> right but that's the problem, people are selfish, so to get them to spend that little extra, they have to feel it, experience it, be a problem for them
<zomaar> I even believe some get a kick out of being needed in support roles
<zomaar> Ie. the more bugs, the more work for you to do
<jer> well it's not as malicious as that -- but people want to feel included, generally speaking
<jer> that their opinions matter
<jer> that's what i was talking about with the "clout" comment above
<zomaar> On the topics of what work to do yes.
<jer> i will footnote that with one thing, it's probably not conscious in most people, because most developers i have known, hate fixing bugs after bugs =]
<jer> if they don't, they're probably well suited for a life in QA =]
<zomaar> If it was conscious they woudn't be doing this in any case...
<jer> zomaar, hard to quantiy that statement though
<zomaar> Because it is impossible not to see how the difficulty in using a system is a cost to users
<zomaar> And at the same time you say : users become developers
<jer> zomaar, i think that much is self evident if you take the position of taking a step back and looking at it as a whole
<zomaar> In open source
<jer> most users don't become developers though
<zomaar> Yes
<jer> but developers do all the work, and as a ratio, how many people have a product focus on these disparate teams building this or that?
<jer> i'd argue, granted not knowing fully, that the amount of specialized product people are limited, and certainly don't interact with the whole wide swath of the OSS community
<zomaar> Some say that "real developers" have no issue with the user interface shortages
<jer> devs love to hate on PMs, but it's a symbiotic relationship =]
<zomaar> heh
<zomaar> The "real admin" mindset.
<zomaar> "A real admin has no trouble reading bad man pages"
<zomaar> "A real admin never executes a wrong command"
<jer> sure, but that's viewing the problem through the wrong focus
<jer> and by 'sure' i mean 'if we assume that to be true'
<zomaar> It's the blaming the user mindset.
<zomaar> It creates a separation between users and developers
<zomaar> That causes the "not my problem feeling"
<zomaar> Then, when those users can't use something, they are told "then fix it yourself"
<zomaar> But you just created a schizm
<zomaar> And now you tell them to bridge it
<zomaar> (Not you)
<jer> zomaar, a lot of those who blame users for problems tend to be less experienced in my opinion and suffer from the dunning-kruger effect
<zomaar> Yes I guess so
<jer> of course there are some experienced folks who just have an empathy gap
<jer> =]
<zomaar> I mean obviously real developers often greatly care about their product
<zomaar> It's the people around it who care less
<jer> it's not required to do great work, but you'll do your best work if you can empathize with your user, own their problems, and produce something that makes their problems more palatable if not removes them entirely
<zomaar> And who then try to perk up their status by being arrogant about their skills
<jer> and it's often hard
<zomaar> But for me that just sounds extremely natural
<zomaar> The point is that I am spending time dealing with incomplete systems when my time would be much more useful
<zomaar> if those systems had been completed
<zomaar> For example
<zomaar> Which I could then spend
<zomaar> on improving the system
<jer> sure, and the open source way of answering that would be "fix it"
<zomaar> It's that cycle
<jer> =]
<zomaar> Yes but this destroys any sense of specialisation
<zomaar> Now the developer is asked to develop 1000 projects at the same time
<zomaar> Instead of 1 and do it well
<zomaar> Your time is not well spent if you have to fix other people's projects
<zomaar> That almost amounts to building the entire thing up from scratch
<zomaar> When the entire idea of community or society is that you don't need to
<jer> the open source software lifecycle is: Some problem bugs someone, they want to fix it; build some fledgling thing that 'works for me' and puts it on github; someone with a similar problem finds it, adds a package to their platform of choice, so they can install it under whatever package system; that gives more people visibility, some find it, and use it, maybe the odd person fixes a bug that many have
<jer> hit; upstream dev comments on it asking for changes to more fit their style, this is sometimes where things die as those changes never get made, etc.
<jer> or they get merged and new version potentially cut; or sometimes the original author doesn't have htis problem anymore because maintaining things takes time and they don't have it anymore
<jer> basically there's really only one pathway into the process, but a thousand ways that it can exit =]
<jer> and they all suck for users =]
<zomaar> And everyone is solving everyone else's problems but their own
<zomaar> And that is the basic problem
<zomaar> When ironically
<zomaar> The whole idea of software development is solving other people's problems.
<zomaar> Just not other developers' problems ;-).
<zomaar> You gotta do your own work, not someone else's.
<zomaar> So that's the dichotomy I think.
<zomaar> There is a splintering of energy
<zomaar> Instead of a focus
<zomaar> And this being fragmented causes the loss of efficiency in the entire system.
<jer> sorry was afk for a sec
<jer> the thing is though, when developers solve problems themselves they're both seen as the user and the developer; so often will take the way that makes the most sense in their head... thinking analytically, that means they'll build it for a developer like them
<jer> won't even be applicable potentially (their solution) to other developers let alone many years
<jer> s/years$/users/
<zomaar> I once spoke to the autofs developer and he told me he had no clue how a user would see the system because he'd been at it for so long.
<nacc> i think there is some conflating here between "the open source software cycle" and "an open source software cycle"
<nacc> if you think you know how all OSS gets developed, you're lying
<nacc> plenty of companies use rigorous engineering around open source
<jer> nacc, ok fair point
<jer> i misspoke =]
<nacc> it's also the difference, IMO between being a programmer and being a software engineer
<zomaar> Hard to see how you can separate that
<nacc> zomaar: do you consider yourself either?
<zomaar> And company-produced software would obviously follow a somewhat different strategem.
<zomaar> I consider myself both yes.
<zomaar> VLC for instance didn't originate in the "open source world".
<nacc> totally my opinion, but a programmer, imo, aka a coder, takes a short-sighted approach and is able to churn out code. Nothing wrong with that. You want a job done, they get it done.
<nacc> a software engineer is, well, an engineer (if they actually have the title), and is able to go from a problem statement, to design to engineering to triage of issues, etc
<zomaar> That's almost the same as being a part-time carpenter, but only if you have your own furniture to make.
<nacc> i have no idea what you're talking about
<nacc> but i have felt this way about your comments in general
<nacc> oh well, i have work to do, enjoy your conversation
<zomaar> You paint programmers as amateur software engineers
<nacc> no
<nacc> i thinnk they are different professionns
<zomaar> The programmer you mention does not even sound like a profession.
<nacc> that's your opinion.
<zomaar> No that's what it sounds like.
<jer> nacc, re: short sighted view, that's entirely the job -- the long term job is project managment
<zomaar> Unless you mean just "implementer" of existing designs.
<nacc> i don't have time to go into it now, shouldnt' have said anything
<zomaar> I would agree with that ;-).
<zomaar> But it does describe the schizm between thinking and doing and the Linux "doocracy" adage.
<zomaar> Ie. no designing, only implementing.
<lotuspsychje> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/01/install-slack-app-ubuntu
<lotuspsychje> looking good this
<nacc> yeah, lots more buy-in lately from app upstreams
<lotuspsychje> didnt know this app was so popular
<nacc> especially for being so new
<nacc> very very popular
<lotuspsychje> i love the snap system
<lotuspsychje> its a great addon ontop of apt dont you think
<nacc> great might be a step too far :)
<nacc> there are lots of stuff to stilll cllean up
<nacc> but from an app perspective, snaps are leaps and bounds beyond debs
<lotuspsychje> nacc: you mean those starting testing snaps?
<nacc> lotuspsychje: i mean, e.g., dependencies between stuff, etc.
<lotuspsychje> ah
<nacc> lotuspsychje: and replacing a deb with a snap is still not easy
<nacc> in terms of actually doing so in nthe packaging
<nacc> in terms of actually doing so in nthe packaging
<lotuspsychje> i see
<nacc> bah, sorry
<lotuspsychje> nacc: would love to see that snap command back to list recent added snaps
<nacc> added to the store or to the system?
<lotuspsychje> sudo snap find does a few
<lotuspsychje> to the store
<nacc> ah yes, that shows you the 'highlighted' ones in the store
<lotuspsychje> at the start of snap we had a * to lost more right?
<lotuspsychje> list
<nacc> lotuspsychje: i'm not sure
<nacc> it's evolving, definitely
<lotuspsychje> perhaps i should wishlist this
<lotuspsychje> is this the same procedure as bug
<nacc> lotuspsychje: i can't recall if they prefer bugs or forum posts or gh issues anymore
<nacc> i'd check #snappy
<lotuspsychje> ok tnx
<lotuspsychje> sudo snap install slack --classic
<lotuspsychje> lets try :p
<lotuspsychje> lol that went bad
<nacc> lotuspsychje: what happened?
<lotuspsychje> 50% cpu long load window and login loop to gdm
<lotuspsychje> lets try again
<nacc> lotuspsychje: after just a `snap install` ? why did you need to loginn?
<lotuspsychje> better now
<lotuspsychje> nacc: after slack install and run it, it crashed my gui back to login
<nacc> sad
<lotuspsychje> looks ok now
<nacc> lotuspsychje: running wayland?
<lotuspsychje> no im on xorg here
<nacc> ok
<lotuspsychje> cpu down now :p
<nacc> i'd expect that to be well tested
<nacc> cpu down?
<nacc> oh the load
<lotuspsychje> i mean load
<lotuspsychje> bbl guys
<lotuspsychje> have a nice1
<leftyfb> I think non-LTS versions should be verymuch discouraged. To tell people to install an OS that will only be supported and upgraded for 9 months just plain doesn't work. the LTS versions should be the full releases and everything else should be considered dev or "cutting edge" temporary releases
<leftyfb> it's been years since we've been playing this game and it just doesn't make sense from a typical user perspective
<hggdh> but we do (or did a few ago) say that non-LTS are "development" releases
<daftykins> i agree, unfortunately i think excited users rush to the site and snag the wrong edition
<leftyfb> hggdh: https://www.ubuntu.com/download/desktop
<leftyfb> nothing on there says development
<leftyfb> It does mention the 9 months of "security and maintenance updates" but the average user doesn't know what to make of that
<hggdh> leftyfb: no, it does not. But it (1) first proposes the current LTS, and (2) clearly states non-LTS are worth 9 months of life
<leftyfb> "clearly"
<hggdh> but yes, it should be clearer
<leftyfb> someone going to that link will typically just pick whatever is the higher number
<hggdh> at least as far as dev is concerned, we knew it
<hggdh> and -- barring a memory failure -- I seem to remember it being stated somewhere
<hggdh> leftyfb: yes, I agree. UX, and all
<hggdh> there is another point -- many users want the Newest & Greatest (even if not actually needing it)
<leftyfb> Just saying, we'd probably have more people stick with and recommend Ubuntu if they didn't constantly have to keep upgrading their entire OS to what is sometimes a different experience every 9 months. And also be told something they installed on their brand new computer less than a year ago is now defunct.
<hggdh> fedora is similar (but with two important differences)
<hggdh> diff #1: supported for about 13 months
<hggdh> diff #2: released every 6 months (or so)
<hggdh> so you have one year to upgrade to the L&G
<hggdh> but, still, upgrade you must
<hggdh> but... 18.04 will still be a different UX from 16.04 (and a very different one from 14.04)
<leftyfb> yup
<hggdh> and I am dreading the moment I start upgrading the machines
<leftyfb> but there's 2 years inbetween
<hggdh> yes
<leftyfb> and you can stay on the current for 5 years
<leftyfb> that's a big difference
<hggdh> yes, aboslutely
<hggdh> the only thing I can think of is emailing ubuntu-dev-discuss and raising the issue
<leftyfb> Kinda done playing that game. I've been down that road before. Didn't lead anywhere good.
<hggdh> on my side, my move to Bionic has been... painful, initially. Now I have, thanks to the Gnome extensions, something very similar to Unity
<hggdh> (I do not mind changes, but Unity had some very nice shortcuts)
<leftyfb> hggdh: I couldn't stand Unity (that was actually one of my feedback points back in the day that got shot down horribly). I'm ok with gnome because of it's customizability though I'm seeing that dwindle a bit now. The desktop icons debacle being the most recent
<hggdh> that's OK, it is a question of taste. I, for example, like KDE, but I found I had to type a lot to do the same things I used to do on other DEs
<hggdh> (and I also did NOT like that Unity did not allow a lot of changes)
<hggdh> but Unity had a clean desktop, and -- again, for me -- some very nice shortcuts
<hggdh> it took me about two weeks of swearing; after that, I found that when I moved to a different flavour, I would return quite fast to Unity
<leftyfb> I was using Gnome Do and some keyboard shortcuts added to ccsm before Unity came about and still get by with gnome classic(legacy/flashback?). I tried gnome shell not too long ago and wasn't overly excited, but I think I can get used to it
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-01-19
<nacc> seriously, eol upgradse are not this difficult
<Bashing-om> !cookie | nacc
<ubot5> nacc: Wow! You're such a great helper, you deserve a cookie!
<nacc> Bashing-om: lol
<nacc> i've been in a bad mood all day with these users! :)
<nacc> oh well, also fixing this nasty packaging bug hasn't helped :)
<Bashing-om> nacc: My patience would have expired long past with this one :)
<nacc> seriously, it's like they both forgot how to read! :)
<Bashing-om> nacc: Addeled brained now and can no longer read for comprehension - reckon ?
<nacc> Bashing-om: anything is possible :)
<Bashing-om> nacc: Settled down and ya got a "thank you " :)
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Sveta> hello
<lotuspsychje> hey Sveta
<lotuspsychje> Sveta: all good today?
<Sveta> i burnt my feet by walking on a melting rock yesterday, but it doesn't hurt much, just sensitive to heat, so no walking for me this weekend
<Sveta> apart from that everything is fine
<lotuspsychje> wow
<lotuspsychje> Sveta: walk too long?
<Sveta> i walked for one hour, but it was a very hot rock
<lotuspsychje> ah i see
<Bashing-om> Time ! .. g nite guys \o
<lotuspsychje> nite
<oerheks> :-)
<lotuspsychje> hey oerheks
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: oerheks .. all --- take care till we meet again :)
<lotuspsychje> bbl shower
<oerheks> smell ya
<marcoscosmos> Hi folks 0/
<Sveta> hi
<Sveta> i'm a bit frustrated by how many DE-specific questions get asked in ubuntu channels, i can't possibly know the buttons in them all and often they're not fully documented
<marcoscosmos> Mmm
<marcoscosmos> It's kind of like shooting into the aether to ask them
<marcoscosmos> But like, how do people even know if the flavour of ubuntu they have has a custom build of the DE?
<marcoscosmos> So, it kind of makes sense to ask IMO. Expecting an answer is another matter
<Sveta> hey many people download ubuntu and do not even know which flavour they are using
<lordievader> Good morning
<marcoscosmos> That's very true. When I first started using linux I managed to install both Ubuntu and Kubuntu on the same drive without formatting in between
<marcoscosmos> Morning!
<marcoscosmos> (my laptop was not a happy camper after that)
<lordievader> Ubuntu and Kubuntu have the same core. If the problem is unrelated to the DE it shouldn't really matter which flavour they are running. If they don't know which version... that is  something else.
<marcoscosmos> In my case the problem was that it corrupted files and led to competiting services etc. Not because they are incompatible but because files from one install were left behind and the second didn't have proper control over them
<marcoscosmos> (e.g. a bunch of files in /etc/usr/share that weren't registered into apt)
<marcoscosmos> I was too much of a nub to understand at the time
<Sveta> that's ok
<marcoscosmos> It was also like
<Sveta> not knowing the names of software that you are using is a bit more worrying to me
<Sveta> makes it a pain to troubleshoot
<marcoscosmos> 9 years ago, give or take
<marcoscosmos> Yeah true.
<lordievader> Sveta: Sure, but if you are completely new  to the game it ain't surprising. Suddenly you are bombarded with terms you never heared of.
<Sveta> after installing a linux distro the users need to be gradually exposed to some key concepts
<Sveta> we could suggest them to read one small knowledge base article a day if they like
<Sveta> little load, lots of benefits
<marcoscosmos> okay I've updated xorg.. now lets see if my damn xorg settings stick this time
<marcoscosmos> brb
<lordievader> Sveta: Good idea. Unfortunately people are lazy ð
<Sveta> they're less lazy than you think
<immu> hi all
<lordievader> Hey immu
<immu> hye lordievader whats up
<lordievader> Doing allright here, how are you?
<immu> i am going doing maintenace in Windows
<lordievader> immu: Good luck ð
<immu> :)
<immu> still need to keep Windows for various reasons
<lordievader> Same here.
<immu> On Windows illegal kernel calls where causing blue screens
<immu> by antovirus vendors
<Sveta> were
<lordievader> Well, wouldn't be the first time Mircosoft re-added stuff to the system to make antivirus software work.... (suposing these are deprecated calls)
<marcoscosmos> Okay back, I kind of got it working?
<jink> Good for you.  Whatever it was you got working.  Kind of.
<ducasse> good morning, everyone
<jink> ^__^
<lordievader> > // ACHTUNG!!! this is a special hack for IBM antivirus software
<lordievader> immu above quote comes from http://atdt.freeshell.org/k5/story_2004_2_15_71552_7795.html
<marcoscosmos> Lol. Basically my monitors are default-detected in the wrong positions and my xorg.conf kept getting reset at login for some reason.
<lordievader> Hey ducasse
<lordievader> How are you?
<marcoscosmos> evening, ducasse
<ducasse> hi lordievader - all good, thanks. and you?
<marcoscosmos> Still dunno what's messing with xorg, but running xrandr after login now works in 17.10 (it was broken for some reason in 16.04)
<lordievader> Doing good here ð
<immu> thats 2004 stuff @lordievader
<lordievader> I know
<marcoscosmos_> oops back xD
<immu> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-says-no-more-windows-security-updates-unless-avs-set-a-registry-key/
<immu> see lordievader
<jink> immu: 404 ?
<jink> Nope, it's me.  Last slash is important (God knows why).
<immu> nope works for me
<immu> https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-says-no-more-windows-security-updates-unless-avs-set-a-registry-key
<immu> check now
<immu> Because some anti-virus vendors are using very questionable techniques they end up cause systems to âblue screen of deathâ â aka get into reboot loops.
<jink> immu: That last slash makes a difference, apparently.
<immu> ok
<immu> brb
<EriC^^> morning all
<immu> back
<lordievader> ð
<marcoscosmos> gnome is fucking covoluted wtf
<marcoscosmos> I bricked ubuntu by adding .desktop and .session files in /usr/share/xsessions and /usr/share/gnome-sessions apparently
<marcoscosmos> -_-
<marcoscosmos> realistically it was probably some kind of driver failure I suppose
<zomaar> I am trying to get away from Xenial's LVM and failing every time because I make some mistake that corrupts my filesystem.
<zomaar> But I'm not supported if I "import" a version from Yakkety or beyond, and the end result is every time that I can throw away my filesystem.
<zomaar> That is to say, making "dd" copies of a disk is extremely dangerous.
<marcoscosmos> yeah I'm doing some unsupported things too but, I can't concieve how they'd be related
<zomaar> Because Xenial's LVM has no protection against having multiple disks with the same UUID
<marcoscosmos> dangerous how?
<marcoscosmos> oh fuck
<marcoscosmos> ok
<zomaar> You have to carefully shield the original disk using "global_filter" if you want to examine any of the disks while the other is still connected
<marcoscosmos> I see
<zomaar> If you make one mistake, it can start writing to the wrong disk
<zomaar> To make matters worse I had a cache ;-) that I had forgotten to disconnect
<marcoscosmos> RIP
<zomaar> The problem was mostly that LVM depends on /etc/lvm/lvm.conf so in a chroot environment, this file is different
<zomaar> So if you correctly shield in your live environment
<zomaar> This correct shielding is gone once you enter a chroot
<marcoscosmos> Right
<zomaar> Then, if you somehow forget to deactivate the volumes before the shielding and reactivate them after the shielding
<marcoscosmos> is it not possible to force the uuid to update/become unique or is it a problem that triggers mid dd?
<zomaar> I mean if you don't do vgchange -an in between, and then vgchange -ay in the new situation....
<zomaar> Well you can
<zomaar> But if you do that the names and UUIDs of the backup change
<zomaar> If you then want to copy on to a new disk
<zomaar> You have to do it again
<zomaar> I wanted to avoid that
<zomaar> Having to do it twice
<zomaar> Because I also had another disk connected that I had not copied (the cache)
<zomaar> So if I change the UUIDs in the backup, I first have to disconnect it entirely from the cache
<marcoscosmos> I see
<zomaar> Because otherwise the names of the cache also change.
<zomaar> So I have to remove a physical volume from the backup
<marcoscosmos> Wait why's there a cache anyway?
<zomaar> set
<zomaar> Well I should have disconnected it I just forgot
<marcoscosmos> wait by cache do you mean swap?
<marcoscosmos> or is this some kind of raid scenario?
<zomaar> I just have an LVM cache configured with an SSD for the HDDs.
<zomaar> Sortof.
<zomaar> Yeah so I made matters worse myself I guess.
<zomaar> However disconnecting the cache from the backup means doing some LVM manipulation
<zomaar> that will fail if you don't properly shield first ;-).
<zomaar> So it's a chicken and egg problem at that point.
<marcoscosmos> oh cache like hybrid-ssd-hdds
<zomaar> So I had to disconnect prior to making the backup which I didn't do.
<marcoscosmos> gotcha
<zomaar> Yeah
<zomaar> That
<zomaar> But
<zomaar> If I disconnect prior to making the backup
<zomaar> And remove the extra physical volume
<zomaar> Then adding it back later is going to be difficult.
<zomaar> So it's just one big mess anyway.
<marcoscosmos> why?
<zomaar> Cause if I really remove the PV I also have to remove the volumes.
<zomaar> Which means I have to make the entire cache structure again.
<zomaar> So the only way to do it is to also dd the cache disk
<zomaar> Which requires an extra disk for that too
<zomaar> Then I can change them both at the same time and there are no issues.
<marcoscosmos> shouldn't the volume-making be like. a script that runs at boot anyway?
<marcoscosmos> boot times wouldn't be so great but
<marcoscosmos> yknow
<zomaar> Well no because they are persistent volumes.
<marcoscosmos> in my experience having a hdd ni the fstab fucks boot anyway
<zomaar> Ie. a cache has to persist.
<marcoscosmos> why would a cache persist?
<zomaar> Because it has to prime which data is often used so you can have fast boot times etc.
<marcoscosmos> Ah
<zomaar> E.g. the ureadahead thing
<zomaar> Took about 5.5 seconds on my raid 0 system (using regular 5400 disks at this point)
<zomaar> And with the cache connected it went down to 0.7 seconds.
<zomaar> So that's a direct 5 second boot speedup.
<zomaar> Anyway
<zomaar> It's just one big giant mess.
<zomaar> The way to do it then is to first make the dd, then properly shield the source disks and all the PVs
<zomaar> Then in the shielded thing disconnect everything you don't want from the backup
<zomaar> But I didn't want that because I wanted to copy the backup on ;-).
<marcoscosmos> oh nice
<marcoscosmos> but
<marcoscosmos> I'm guessing you're doing this all as like
<marcoscosmos> a script so
<marcoscosmos> you don't have to deal with typoes every time
<zomaar> Well no it is too complicated to write a script ahead of time I guess...
<zomaar> I mean the first time...
<zomaar> I don't worry about typos but...
<marcoscosmos> no yeah I meant like
<marcoscosmos> for future use
<zomaar> I still don't know how to do it at this point.
<marcoscosmos> Ah
<zomaar> It's not just the cache, this would happen every time you had more than 1 PV.
<marcoscosmos> Well don't worry too much
<marcoscosmos> err
<marcoscosmos> don't feel bad
<zomaar> Yeah I just had an unbootable system because of a billion dangling inodes
<marcoscosmos> commercial backup software is often utterly useless so
<zomaar> I was just scanning what all the lost+found files had come from
<zomaar> And I still need to find out how to do this.
<zomaar> I guess the best way is disconnect any cache to be sure.
<marcoscosmos> I figure the solution most people end up doing is using sync or some such to like, perpetually update key files rather than whole drives
<zomaar> Then shield the source disks
<zomaar> Exchange for target disks.
<zomaar> Copy your own disk back to the target disk.
<zomaar> Never touch the intermediate.
<zomaar> Oh boy.
<zomaar> Never mind, I will just do it slightly more correctly next time I guess.
<zomaar> This is sorta the 3rd time this has happened to me at least.
<marcoscosmos> I see
<marcoscosmos> seems like an ineffectual way to do backups if you lose your original during xD
<marcoscosmos> Ugh I'm stuck on windows for the night.
<zomaar> The LVM of Xenial is considered unsupported by the LVM team because it is too old.
<zomaar> They always tell me: UPGRADE
<marcoscosmos> Windows and it's stacking window manager and mouse use mandates
<marcoscosmos> I hate mice
<marcoscosmos> oh wow okay
<zomaar> But if I try to upgrade through Ubuntu, Ubuntu people tell me: we can't support that.
<marcoscosmos> of course not
<zomaar> So I'm stuck
<marcoscosmos> is this a commercial grade deal?
<marcoscosmos> or like
<marcoscosmos> for private use?
<zomaar> With an "I will kill your system" version of LVM
<zomaar> Private use that this point
<zomaar> Why?
<marcoscosmos> because depending on the scenario you may not need support for your entire system
<zomaar> If you happened to do this for a company and you used Xenial LVM you'd be in trouble
<marcoscosmos> I use unsupported content and still get support for the rest
<marcoscosmos> e.g. an external IDE
<zomaar> Well generally I don't require to the detail support
<zomaar> Just a few pointers.
<zomaar> Like they wouldn't tell me how to debug initramfs
<zomaar> Because I was using part of Yakkety
<marcoscosmos> I'm usually coming here looking for info that's a PITA to google (after trying for a long time)
<zomaar> When the problem was nothing to do with Yakkety
<marcoscosmos> like
<marcoscosmos> how the fuck gnome session even launches these days
<zomaar> But anyway I have to continue wasting my life away
<marcoscosmos> I spent like 4 hours trying to figure out how to launch the settings daemons and shit
<marcoscosmos> only to inexplicably brick it
<zomaar> I couldn't figure out how to start the KDE Power Savings settings from the command line
<zomaar> Then I forgot I hadn't disabled it and my system went into standby while doing a download
<zomaar> Which kinda ruined the entire next day for me
<marcoscosmos> :\
<marcoscosmos> yeah
<zomaar> Anyway.
<zomaar> I really now have to return to a clean Xenial and start everything all over again.
<zomaar> Which I can't do because I'm also on a slow link
<zomaar> So yes indeed
<zomaar> Every time I make a backup it destroys my origin AND the backup
<zomaar> LVM 171 has some protections against more errors
<zomaar> But the latest version of LVM in Ubuntu is about 168
<zomaar> Or maybe now
<marcoscosmos> Why not just use the latest lvm with xenial?
<zomaar> You mean compile from source?
<zomaar> I know it's not difficult to compile it
<marcoscosmos> No no
<marcoscosmos> apt-pinning
<zomaar> Bionic has version 168 which is too old
<zomaar> But at least new enough to protect again the dual UUID issues
<marcoscosmos> well you should also be able to pin from debian itself
<marcoscosmos> not just ubuntu
<marcoscosmos> including debian-testing
<TJ-> zomaar: we'll be syncing lvm2 from debian shortly
<zomaar> But that means using a newer version from Ubuntu
<marcoscosmos> not with pinning
<zomaar> Then when there is some issue they'll say I am unsupported
<zomaar> Okay
<marcoscosmos> pinning is unsupported but it can't be worse than your current situation
<TJ-> Bug #1741986
<ubot5> bug 1741986 in lvm2 (Ubuntu) "Please merge lvm2 from Debian unstable for lvmlockd and sanlock support" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1741986
<zomaar> Well for some reason I had boot issues with the new LVM from Yakkety
<marcoscosmos> only lvm and other packages from whatever you pin if any will be unsupported
<zomaar> Sure but
<zomaar> Those weren' there yet when coming from kernel 4.4.0
<zomaar> I was always able to use the newer LVM in Xenial
<zomaar> I hadn't figured out yet how to troubleshoot that
<zomaar> Now I know
<zomaar> Well no because I didn't even get an initramfs prompt
<zomaar> I am currently sitting in Yakkety kernel ;-) (4.8.0) with Yakkety LVM
<zomaar> It has some issues with my USB3 and the Nouveau turns my screen off if the monitor is not connected
<zomaar> but only the HDMI-monitor
<marcoscosmos> strange
<zomaar> I have yet to test the 4.10 kernel now
<zomaar> And 4.4 I guess
<zomaar> My download link is also so slow that it takes a few hours to download a new kernel
<zomaar> So I salvaged them from installer media ;-)
<zomaar> I'm just dpkg-repacking everything I need
<zomaar> I grabbed 4.4.0 from the original Xenial DVD
<zomaar> Newer udev gives issues with my 3G modem
<zomaar> Through its rules; not the daemon itself
<zomaar> So I also have to downgrade udev to the version from Xenial
<zomaar> Which I also grabbed from an installer medium ;-).
<zomaar> Because it takes too long to constantly update sources ;-).
<zomaar> Yeah a shitload of trouble isn't it.
<marcoscosmos> haha yeah
<zomaar> I am just afraid of compiling LVM myself.
<zomaar> I first just wanted to try prepackaged versions, because it can't really be worse than that.
<zomaar> (How does one replace the running LVM if it is depended on by initramfs-tools and such)
<zomaar> (While not messing up the package system)
<marcoscosmos> well
<marcoscosmos> tbh you get used to it
<marcoscosmos> and its usually just
<marcoscosmos> make && sudo make install
<zomaar> Sure but you want to put it in /usr/local
<zomaar> Because initramfs-tools is going to copy it from /sbin
<zomaar> But
<zomaar> So that's more trouble
<marcoscosmos> the location is usually determined by the make configure right?
<marcoscosmos> if you're luck you can run ./configure or such and there's an option to redirect it
<zomaar> Sure but you don't want to overwrite the /sbin files and I would have to check whether any initramfs-hooks get updated etc.
<user03> I guess that I will mostly be safe with the OS patches for spectre........a bad bios upgrade can brick your computer.....
<zomaar> Just more trouble I guess
<marcoscosmos> yeah idk anything about initramfs
<zomaar> In fact some programs always install in /sbin
<TJ-> zomaar: I missed why you're wanting to maintain your own lvm2, care to summarise?
<zomaar> No I don't want to, I just want to use a later Ubuntu package
<zomaar> I was just saying how much trouble it is if I don't
<TJ-> zomaar: right, but due to what issue?
<zomaar> LVM Xenial has no protection against duplicate UUIDs and handles that very badly.
<zomaar> They introduced better handling somwhere in 162 or so
<zomaar> That's the most important one
<zomaar> It can basically replace the running PV of an activated VG without you noticing
<zomaar> runtime
<zomaar> Because some disk you connect is "preferred" due to its name or something
<zomaar> This then completely destroys your filesystem in the sense of corrupting all open files and their inodes
<zomaar> Version 162 will not randomly replace PVs like that
<zomaar> So e.g. if you were able to connect some USB stick to Xenial with the same UUID as what's running on your system
<zomaar> You are in for some trouble
<zomaar> You can basically destroy someone's system once you know the UUID
<TJ-> Right, but it begs the question of why you'd have multiple PVs with the same UUID /online/ at the same time and not configure lvm.conf to ignore one of the devices
<zomaar> Well
<zomaar> That's nice if you can do that correctly
<zomaar> But chrooted LVM also has a lvm.conf and can mess it up again
<zomaar> I mean
<zomaar> This dependency on a file is rather bad
<zomaar> The first time I didn't know to do that.
<TJ-> The whole point of a UUID is in it's name: Universally /Unique/ IDentifier
<zomaar> A user will just use dd and get into a world of trouble
<zomaar> Then when you discover how to shield you can still mess up
<zomaar> In this case I messed up because
<TJ-> so if it is no longer unique ... expect problems especially when you're doing premediated non-standard operations and configurations
<zomaar> The live system had automatically activated the volume groups of course
<zomaar> When I shielded the origin they were still activated
<zomaar> And still used
<zomaar> Etc.
<zomaar> dd is actually supported operation by LVM
<zomaar> clear
<zomaar> by doing vgimportclone
<zomaar> but you have to shield first correctly
<zomaar> And do everything in the right order
<zomaar> I mean they rewrote LVM to protect against this use case
<zomaar> Recognising the trouble
<TJ-> I do data forensics and recovery which involves a lot of cloning, sometimes with LVM, and (so far) I've managed not to have LVM get confused :)
<zomaar> Also version 168 does not have protection against --split-cache and then re-attach the cache
<zomaar> It will use the old metadata and corrupt your filesystem
<zomaar> You must be better at it then I am ;-)
<TJ-> Right, the way I deal with it is to change the cloned VGs' host value
<zomaar> Right
<TJ-> That's also how vgexport/vgimportclone manage it
<zomaar> That makes sense
<zomaar> Okay
<zomaar> Hey I am just a new user in a certain sense
<zomaar> I do not know how to do everything and have not had formal training or anything
<zomaar> Zdenek of LVM said that --split-cache was just meant as a debugging feature, not for actual use
<zomaar> But it was exposed that way and caused mayhem
<zomaar> In version 171 they now protect against that
<zomaar> And automatically clean the cache upon reconnect
<zomaar> So that was one of my "oops, corrupted my filesystem" instances
<zomaar> Maybe my concentration is not always perfect
<zomaar> But I always manage to mess it up
<zomaar> (I have bad short term memory these days)
<marcoscosmos> I've always had shit short term
<marcoscosmos> or more specifically
<marcoscosmos> shit working memory
<zomaar> Me it started with a hit to the head
<zomaar> Back in 2014
<marcoscosmos> Damn
<marcoscosmos> I have ADHD and some kind of melatonin/adrenaline imbalance
<marcoscosmos> I /can/ sleep
<marcoscosmos> I've gotten better at that once I'm in bed
<marcoscosmos> but staying awake is just so ridiculously easy
<zomaar> :).
<zomaar> Nice
<zomaar> I am jealous a bit now
<zomaar> Haha
<zomaar> I always fall asleep when I don't want to.
<zomaar> I still don't know if my 4.10 kernel will boot at this point or give me an initrd prompt or something
<marcoscosmos> Well
<marcoscosmos> I rarely get 8 hours
<marcoscosmos> maybe once or twice a month
<zomaar> Half of the time the kernel hangs on some USB issie
<zomaar> issue
<marcoscosmos> so I'm going to die quite a bit younger than you
<marcoscosmos> :P
<zomaar> My current boot took a few minutes because it was hanging on usb3
<zomaar> Other times, it is hanging on some USB stick
<zomaar> USB stick = entire kernel stalls
<TJ-> zomaar: why does it hang? device initialising or some userspace service during boot?
<zomaar> USB device reset or something
<zomaar> This time it was:
<zomaar> [ 8152.312303] hub 3-1.4:1.0: hub_ext_port_status failed (err = -110)
<TJ-> zomaar: sounds like you need 4.13 kernel
<zomaar> This is 4.8, 4.10 doesn't do that
<zomaar> Maybe yes
<zomaar> The other one is some Mushkin USB stick that has trouble with nVidia chipsets or something
<zomaar> I am going to reboot to 4.10 and 4.4 now to see what happens ;-).
<zomaar> Brb, maybe
<zomaar> 4.10 does boot it just takes a while longer because udev has some issue with libdevmapper or something
<zomaar> Which is due to the kernel
<zomaar> With the libdevmapper of Yakkety I mean
<zomaar> ;-)
<zomaar> And no usb 3 problem
<zomaar> I was just impatient once more
<zomaar> So annoying but not as severe as I thought
<zomaar> And in the end the only problem I had was that
<zomaar> initramfs doesn't tell you there is a mount problem
<zomaar> And regular mount has no issue mounting the device
<zomaar> during a live session
<zomaar> So how was I supposed to know it hangs because it feels you have to manually fsck it :-/.
<zomaar> Even after manually mounting it it wouldn't continue :-/.
<zomaar> Wasted 2 days on that
<zomaar> You have to turn on "debug" and check /run/initramfs/file to know what is even going on
<zomaar> But I couldn't ask how to find out because "Yakkety"
<zomaar> ;-)
<zomaar> :(
<zomaar> I had edited lvm.conf while lvm was confused as to the backing PV
<zomaar> After I had fixed the issue
<zomaar> lvm.conf had turned into a binary blob ;-)
<zomaar> Meaning the inode didn't agree with the data
<zomaar> Probably because vi changes the inode while saving?
<zomaar> It does
<zomaar> This was actually caused by the cache being updated with the new inode and then connecting to the old PV though
<zomaar> So on the "correct" PV the file hadn't been written yet, but its accompanying file system structure had
<zomaar> Why do you write on a backup? I just wanted to chroot into it and check things but the chroot has a different lvm.conf
<marcoscosmos> I'd suggest symlinking them but I'm not sure that that works across id changes or such?
<zomaar> "I'm in for a world of pain"
<zomaar> "But that's your normal state of being"
<zomaar> "Oh, well it's not so bad then."
<marcoscosmos> heh
<zomaar> ;-)
<zomaar> Ha, you're still here
<zomaar> :)
<marcoscosmos> yeh just
<marcoscosmos> vegitating before bed
<marcoscosmos> I probably should just go to bed..
<zomaar> Serioulsy trouble ceases to have its worrisome quality when you realize trouble is the normal
<marcoscosmos> indeed
<marcoscosmos> I'm rarely worried so much as
<marcoscosmos> engraged
<zomaar> Or if danger is the normal, then you're like, hey, I like this
<daftykins> engaged and enraged at the same time? :)
<zomaar> You start to feel secure in feeling in danger
<zomaar> I am furious too most of the time
<zomaar> Sometimes with myself but just as often with the bad software
<daftykins> you need to learn to let go of that second one, that'll always exist :)
<zomaar> Let go of the bad software, indeed
<zomaar> :)
<zomaar> Haha
<daftykins> i just ran into someone i got a job with at the same time, 10 years ago... i was straight out of Uni and he had spent many years working in IT support in finance circles
<daftykins> he was _utterly_ useless, they got rid of him and kept me on... today he recognised me and in chatting, said he's still running Windows XP
<daftykins> >_<
<zomaar> Wait what so when you got the job he had a different background?
<daftykins> no still IT support, which the job we got was, just they thought he was meant to be competent from having done it for so many years
<zomaar> Okay
<daftykins> guy couldn't even install an OS properly
<daftykins> "when we get servers they just come with discs to set them up"
<daftykins> ugh :P
<zomaar> Still work is a luxury you know
<zomaar> I mean being able to work somewhere where you learn stuff
<zomaar> Or where you are surrounded by knowledgeable people
<daftykins> if you're not on a tight leash and have freedom to impelement what you choose, you can learn plenty by yourself
<zomaar> Not so easy
<zomaar> Because
<zomaar> Tiny things
<zomaar> That a colleage could tell you
<zomaar> May take you a year to find out because it doesn't seem important enough to research at that moment
<zomaar> And this tiny bit of information can cause enormous headaches when you need the info at a crucial moment
<zomaar> Stuff that is obvious to someone but it's not in the documentation
<zomaar> Stuff like enter, ~, .
<zomaar> Or g/G
<daftykins> o0
<zomaar> Or :w !sudo tee %
<zomaar> There is so much stuff that makes life a lot easier
<zomaar> But it's more common knowledge than stuff you hunt for
<zomaar> It's this common knowledge that gets more easily shared between people
<zomaar> What about dpkg-repack
<zomaar> What about apt-file
<zomaar> If you use aptitude you can find out
<zomaar> Not if you just use apt or apt-get
<zomaar> I once spent a few hours reading through the package lists of Debian 7
<zomaar> I learned a lot
<lordievader> `man apt-file` works fine here.
<zomaar> Because aptitude
<zomaar> That's great Lordievader
<zomaar> I am happy for you
<lordievader> I'm not really sure what you are arguing about, it seems to me that the things you mention are easily findable with a bit of Googleing (but I may be missing the point).
<daftykins> i'm not hugely following either (:
<zomaar> But anyway daftykins, that's the reason why I say having colleagues helps ;-).
<daftykins> i could understand in the context of someone new to Linux starting a job with it, perhaps... otherwise, pass
<zomaar> So lordievader tell me how to find out about dpkg-repack, apt-file, and apt-offline with one google query
<zomaar> Without knowing the names of these tools beforehand
<zomaar> Or that the feature even exists, you might say
<lordievader> Well, usually you have a job that needs doing. You google for that. If it is the right tool for the job someone will mention it.
<zomaar> So what if you never need to dpkg-repack because apt download also handles the task 99% of cases so you never feel the need to google for it?
<lordievader> Why do you need to know about some program B if program A does everything you need done?
<lordievader> Or let me put it differently. apt-get and aptitude do largely the same thing. I use apt-get, do I need to know what aptitude does, what kind of flags it accept, etc?
<lordievader> I'd argue it is a waste of time since I don't use aptitude and apt-get does the stuff I need it to do.
<lordievader> Hmm... that is not very sportive.
<daftykins> i use apt now :> 4 fewer characters to type!
<lordievader> Same here. And it has progress bars ð
<zomaar> Sorry my system froze or at least the keyboard
<zomaar> And now in 4.4.0 every time I run xrandr it kills my X session
<zomaar> I am improving things
<daftykins> sounds like a fragile stack of twigs
<zomaar> I must be the greatest system administrator in the world.
<zomaar> I achieve things no one has ever dreamed of
<zomaar> Haha
<zomaar> Next up I will blow at my computer and the pentagon will explode
<zomaar> By accident
<zomaar> Not sure how I did that
<zomaar> There is some power in that breath!
<zomaar> I am actually afraid of blowing at my monitor now
<zomaar> Let's not unnecessarily risk things
<zomaar> But yeah Lordievader if you don't have internet access once upon the time and this is the exact moment you need dpkg-repack you are screwed
<marcoscosmos> so wait
<marcoscosmos> is unity fully discontinued?
<marcoscosmos> like
<zomaar> Yes
<zomaar> I think so
<marcoscosmos> after 16 goes after of support, no more unity?
<marcoscosmos> huh.
<zomaar> Basically unless someone maintains it
<marcoscosmos> Must have been really unpopular
<zomaar> You can still install it for the time being I think
<daftykins> i thought someone forked it already
<zomaar> Yeah but question is whether it will be available and how well
<zomaar> Depending on google for your every solution is not the greatest either
<daftykins> i don't use desktop Linux so :)
<zomaar> And what if half of that time you could have used dpkg-repack instead of apt download and it would have been a better solution, but you were not actively in need of it because the other solution also worked?
<zomaar> So you were never compelled to seek out the alternative?
<zomaar> Or, since you can close Konsole windows, you never needed enter, ~, . ?
<zomaar> It would just have saved a lot of time if you knew how?
<marcoscosmos> yeh so apparently gnome doesn't support external window managers so
<marcoscosmos> since unity is out
<marcoscosmos> mate was supposed to support it but glitched the fuck out
<marcoscosmos> I'm gunna try KDE and LXDE
<marcoscosmos> because KDE is pretty
<marcoscosmos> and LXDE is light so if kde fails, LDXE should give me the bare minimum with little fuss
<daftykins> marcoscosmos: watch the language in the 'buntu channels
<marcoscosmos> oh, sorry!
<zomaar> They've moved the packages of Yakkety away now which is cute because it can still download packages that haven't changed from Yakkety to Aardvark :p
<marcoscosmos> Must have been really unpopular
<zomaar> What, those packages?
<zomaar> Or the move
<daftykins> you're pointing one release to another release's packages? are you insane?
<zomaar> Well the easy answer is yes I am
<zomaar> Then I don't have to answer why
<zomaar> :)
<marcoscosmos> well I've selectively pointed 1-2 packages in isolation to another release with no consequeces, daftykins
<zomaar> History tells that the Prince of Yi (or something) in China pretended to be insane
<daftykins> marcoscosmos: i didn't mean you
<zomaar> So that he didn't have to fulfill any obligations on the court of his monarch (emperor)
<daftykins> zomaar: hrmm then you have no idea what you're doing, enjoy
<zomaar> Because the emperor was a tyrant
<marcoscosmos> but it's kind of a niche scenario where I can garauntee no other packages in the active release even know about those two packages existing in the short term
<zomaar> By claiming insanity he was left alone
<marcoscosmos> an if they ever did then I wouldn't need to be doing the pinning in the first place
<marcoscosmos> and*
<marcoscosmos> so it'd be fine :P
<zomaar> See it works :)
<zomaar> I don't have to answer why
<zomaar> What has been unpopular marcoscosmos?
<marcoscosmos> oh no your thing is nuts
<marcoscosmos> you're mainly doing it because your speed sucks by the sounds anyway
<marcoscosmos> unity, zomaar
<zomaar> Maybe sortof
<zomaar> Don't want to go into why exactly
<zomaar> But it's true that I cannot just download images
<marcoscosmos> Well I mean you're selecting older packages where you want newer ones by the sounds s
<marcoscosmos> so*
<marcoscosmos> in certain package
<marcoscosmos> packages*
<zomaar> Unity wasn't unpopular with people I think
<marcoscosmos> then why discontinue it?
<zomaar> But it also wasn't the success and Canonical decided that more money was in cloud
<marcoscosmos> usually stuff would fork officially instead
<zomaar> Because apparently Gnome 3 was to a point that it was okayish
<marcoscosmos> Ah
<zomaar> And Unity's goal was not really fully reached
<zomaar> Phone convergence didn't really work out well
<marcoscosmos> yeah Iguess now they're doing that thing where the donators select what to fund
<zomaar> And Canonical made great headway into the container business
<marcoscosmos> really?
<zomaar> Well they are huge in the cloud
<zomaar> It brings in $$
<zomaar> Ubuntu is now a specialized container ecosystem basically
<zomaar> With the best container support perhaps of any distribution
<zomaar> Even LXD may be a Canonical creation
<zomaar> I think Canonical just collected the gains and jumped out
<zomaar> In Dutch we say "choosing eggs for your money"
<zomaar> Ie. chances are you won't get something better, and instead of risking it all you quickly purchase something that will be good enough and exit the scene
<zomaar> So Canonical left the Desktop business and focuses now on the container business
<zomaar> A bit crudely said
<zomaar> Perhaps
<zomaar> Those game shows where you can collect the cash or take a shot on a higher prize
<zomaar> When you collect the cash and leave, that is called "eieren voor je geld kiezen"
<zomaar> (eggs for your money)
<zomaar> You can look at Canonical's cloud support offerings etc.
<marcoscosmos> ah
<zomaar> So instead of making their own Desktop Environment, they only make their own skin for Gnome
<zomaar> Lesser task
<zomaar> Still looks the same in colours
<marcoscosmos> mmm it probably works better anywau
<marcoscosmos> anyway off, night!
<zomaar> If someone puts a desktop on a server they won't care so much that Gnome 3 is just a kiosk
<zomaar> Okay
<marcoscosmos> kiosk?
<zomaar> Well Gnome 3 is a bit of a Kiosk OS compared to KDE
<zomaar> But Unity was also that; netbooks
<zomaar> Unity was great for small resolutions because that's how it was developed
<zomaar> Ie. you have 1024x600 and put Unity on it
<zomaar> That's what it was original called
<zomaar> Netbook something
<zomaar> On a netbook you don't want excessive features because you don't even have a mouse
<zomaar> The environment needs to be small and workable
<zomaar> No captions, just buttons, and the panel to the left
<zomaar> Horizontal panel eats up too much of that 600 pixels
<zomaar> That's why Unity has the panel on the left basically
<zomaar> Unity is also great for concentration
<zomaar> Ie. I had Ubuntu 14.04 or 12.04 and it had no support for my monitor
<zomaar> So the resolution was 1024x768 or even 800x600 and everything was huge
<zomaar> And it was a bliss
<zomaar> Nothing else that you can do but code
<zomaar> Unity also looks pleasing to big soft round orange shapes
<marcoscosmos>  haha I see
<marcoscosmos> I dislike orange
<marcoscosmos> but it goes great with purple
<zomaar> Orange is the new
<marcoscosmos> haha
<marcoscosmos> anyway, bye
<zomaar> Bye
<nicomachus> tomreyn: 10:23|     altaiir| nicomachus: Sooooorry, I mistake my keys that wooorks thanks
<nicomachus> 10:24|     altaiir| it's pg up pg down less maj
<nicomachus> took a few tries... definitely not english as a first language.
<tomreyn> :)
<nacc> zomaar: offtopic for the support channel
<nacc> i can't say enough how much i disagree with you
<nicomachus> lol
<nacc> and you really should not suggest that in the official support channel
<zomaar> You have no regard for practical concerns
<nicomachus> we have no regard for bad/non-solutions
<zomaar> And if someone is in prison they also cannot upgrade their server
<nicomachus> and no regard for useless hypotheticals
<zomaar> So you are saying doing impossible things is a solution?
<nacc> zomaar: lol
<nacc> if they are in prison
<nacc> and have ssh access to their remote server
<nacc> which they have not had for say 9 months
<nicomachus> upgrade your installation when it's EOL. if you can't, then install an LTS release.
<nacc> so their release could go eol
<nacc> then they didn't care about their computer in that time
<nacc> BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT USE IT
<zomaar> How is that not caring?
<nacc> zomaar: i would appreciate it if you would avoid ad homenim responses
<zomaar> You are telling me I should not be in the support channel
<zomaar> I would appreciate if you would not do that
<nicomachus> I think nacc has some authority on that
<zomaar> And also their server kept running and kept serving their webpages
<zomaar> Now what?
<nacc> zomaar: i never said that
<nacc> zomaar: i said don't suggest that in the support channel
<nacc> zomaar: and possibly got hacked in the meanwhile
<nacc> and is now vulnerable to any number of CVEs
<zomaar> zomaar: if you're suggesting it's better to run an EOL release than to upgrade, i'm sorry, you should't be helping here
<zomaar> Also you are doing really a straw-man argument because this user did want to upgrade
<zomaar> So I never suggested he stay on Yakkety
<nacc> what straw-man? you had literally just said 'not everyone is in the position to upgrade'
<zomaar> Because any help I gave was in the context of this person
<nacc> it's in the public channel
<nacc> it's in the context of the ubuntu support channel
<zomaar> And suggesting someone do a dist upgrade within his release is the first step to getting ahead with the upgrade as well
<zomaar> So dist-upgrade should be the first thing you do regardless of whether this person wants to move on or not
<zomaar> Once that's done, you can discuss how it's done
<zomaar> Otherwise the support question becomes too big in one go
<nacc> you've lost me now
<nacc> i don't think anyone said anything against making a eol release current before do-release-upgrade
<nacc> that is in fact the official community guidance
<zomaar> You advizes against it if that person was not planning to do-release-upgrade
<zomaar> advized*
<zomaar> But that just complicates matters
<nacc> if they are not planning on d-r-u, they are not supported, and they are offtopic for the support channel!
<zomaar> Then you are leaving them more vulnerable than if they would be if they did dist-upgrade
<nacc> ...
<zomaar> Also they have to do the step anyway and now became closer to choosing do-release-upgrade
<nacc> you are giving them false security by saying they are somehow current
<zomaar> No it's the right direction anyway
<nacc> the right direction for an EOL release is !eolupgrade
<nacc> not, get current then make a decision about whether to upgrade or not
<zomaar> That's how life works nacc
<zomaar> Sometimes we have to take things in small steps
<nacc> lol
<zomaar> Not trying to be insolent here
<zomaar> But stuff becomes easier if you can first just do the obvious
<nacc> the obvious is follow the eolupgrade page!
<zomaar> Get that done, and then move on
<nacc> which happens to involve a dist-upgrade using old-releases
<nacc> and then an immediate d-r-u
<zomaar> Yes well in this case d-r-u didn't work
<zomaar> Or something in any case
<nacc> because they were *two* releases out of date
<nacc> so they should just reinstall, tbh
<zomaar> Maybe I was wrong about it
<nacc> again, as said
<nacc> or do two eol upgrades
<zomaar> There is still no point in not making them do dist-upgrade because after that you can push them on if you want and if they want
<nacc> zomaar: again, i don't think anyone said not to dist-upgrade
<nacc> zomaar: the point was, if they are going to stay on zesty, their system is unsupported, vulnerable and should be disabled anyways
<nacc> zomaar: and they should have installed an LTS in the first place if they weren't going to pay ttention to support timelines
<zomaar> That's mustard after the meal ;-)
<nacc> no, it's education.
<zomaar> Chastising people doesn't help
<nacc> did the user you were helping understand *why* they were in the position they were in?
<zomaar> Not now in any case
<zomaar> Well yes apparently they hadn't been paying attention and wanted to fix that now asap
<nacc> right
<nacc> did you tell them what to pay attentino to?
<nacc> or what the difference between lts and non-lts is?
<nacc> or did you put them in the position to have to do this exactly again in 6 onths
<zomaar> It's funny
<zomaar> With the programmer vs software-engineer you said that the programmer doesn't think ahead ;-).
<zomaar> :)
<zomaar> I was solving the problem first, discuss later
<zomaar> I can't be responsible for everyone's mindsets
<nacc> I don't believe I said the programmer does *not* think ahead
<zomaar> Well in any case once this person is on Aardvark he has a supported do-release-upgrade, that's all I cared about.
<zomaar> If the system is then dysfynctional in some way he can always reinstall
<zomaar> He prefered upgrading in-place
<zomaar> He thought Aardvark had been pulled, etc
<zomaar> Btw I don't see how waiting till support ends before you upgrade is in any way counter to the intent of the system
<zomaar> E.g. supposing apt would give an error message indicating end of support that would only be a very normal thing to have
<zomaar> and if it also included instructions on how to upgrade, that would only be very normal as well
<nacc> apt doesn't knwo what support is
<nacc> you upgrade *before* support ends
<zomaar> Just because someone waits one week, supposedly, before upgrading, doesn't immediately disqualify them from being 'good administrators' or anything
<nacc> not after
<zomaar> I know
<nacc> uh, yeah it does
<zomaar> Well yeah again but this is real life
<zomaar> This is the normal
<zomaar> Any business will encounter that
<nacc> maybe your normal
<zomaar> No everyone's normal
<zomaar> This is how users are
<nacc> zomaar: please don't tell me what my normal is
<nacc> or assume you know everything about users
<zomaar> I said the normal of all other businesses out there mostly.
<nacc> lol
<nacc> 'all', 'mostly'
<zomaar> Please don't feel so personally addressed if I have already qualified my statement
<zomaar> Yes, that's also very normal language.
<nacc> qualified it to mean nothing
<nacc> all X do Y mostly
<nacc> doesn't mean much
<nacc> and unless you've talked to all businesses out there ...
<zomaar> You may disagree with ordinary language all you want
<zomaar> You may also disagree with what Microsoft, Apple etc. are facing
<zomaar> I can guarantee you it's the same
<nacc> that's nice
<nacc> not sure what your guarantee is worth it in this case
<nacc> and you've used up quite a bit of my morning now
<nacc> so have a nice day
<zomaar> I am not sure what you are arguing
<zomaar> Good day
<Bashing-om> Here we go again .. and it's Friday support :)
<nicomachus> Bashing-om: sure is... been kinda awful all day
<Bashing-om> nicomachus: Well, still more intertaining to watch irc than commercial TV :P
<nacc> tomreyn: gl :)
<tomreyn> :) thanks, and good night to you!
<nacc> tomreyn: oh i'm awake for a while
<nacc> just worried for your sanity now :)
<tomreyn> oh :)
<tomreyn> i should probbaly suggest to install inxi, then run inxi -adslfgbnhfasjlhbgÃ¶sjwleg | pastebinit
<nacc> loll
<nacc> goodness, ENOPARSE on that last one
<TJ-> tomreyn: I'd just ask the user to send me an ISO image of the entire system :p
<nacc> TJ-: i thought you were going to sleep :-P
<daftykins> he always says that ;)
<Sveta> morning
 * TJ- is sleep hacking
<TJ-> actually, I'm trying to shoo the huskies out for the night into their beds but they're playing hide'n'seek :)
<daftykins> :D
<Sveta> how many huskies have you got, TJ-?
<TJ-> only 2 ... for now, plus a collie
<Sveta> ok
<TJ-> while 1 heads towards the door the other sneaks off :)
<tomreyn> oh TJ was going to sleep, i knew someone was going to!
<tomreyn> ISO image is a good idea, too, i'll make a note.
<TJ-> g'night... 1st time before midnight in a week - doing far too much clubbing :p
<tomreyn> #ubuntu clubbing
<tomreyn> now i'm getting worried for my sanity, too
<Sveta> is https://askubuntu.com/questions/293028/how-can-i-install-ubuntu-encrypted-with-luks-with-dual-boot still relevant?
<Sveta> I'm not sure whether the installer handles encrypted dual boot installs out of the box, "Thaelim" seems to want to do this
<daftykins> this isn't a support channel
<Sveta> I know. I'm helping someone and I'm a bit stuck :P
<Sveta> if there's another place where people-who-are-helping coordinate effort, please let me know.
<daftykins> best guy for encrypted setup questions just went to bed
<tomreyn> i guess i would just install $otheros, then make sure there is unpartitioned space, then install ubuntu with encryption + lvm
<daftykins> the recent CPU design flaws point to none of it being hugely worthwhile anyway, in a way :)
<tomreyn> ME is not a design flaw
<tomreyn> and, if you trust intel's PR, meltdown and spectre are neither :P
<daftykins> unsure why you're trying to use disinformation as a counter
<tomreyn> daftykins: disinformation?
<daftykins> yeah intel defending themselves
<daftykins> it was a 'bug' they denied meltdown/spectre were though, not design flaws iirc
<tomreyn> do you mean they are not defending themselves, or that i should not insinuate that they do, or do you mean they are defending themsellves and that i said they do not?
<tomreyn> i just can't follow and would like to understand what you mean.
<tomreyn> i exxagerated, sarcastically, but did not mean to spread disinfo.
<daftykins> ugh. them defending their chips was kinda disinformation, in a way
<tomreyn> oh, okay. i was thinking you suggested i was disinforming.
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-01-20
<tomreyn> i detest their meltdown + spectre PR. it's hardly possible to find the bits of actual information in there and interpret it correctly.
<tomreyn> amd's "we're the untouchables" approach is not really better, though.
<daftykins> and Apple claiming they fixed it all in patches, oy
<tomreyn> well a microcode update is a patch for them
<daftykins> not a 100% fix though
<JanC> I wonder if there is an archive somewhere of "Ubuntu sightings in popular media" (movies, series, documentaries, etc.)?
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Saturday - support !
<lotuspsychje> hey Bashing-om
<lotuspsychje> http://news.softpedia.com/news/canonical-invites-ubuntu-users-to-test-kernel-patches-for-spectre-security-flaw-519448.shtml
<lotuspsychje> !info xserver-xorg-video-intel
<ubot5> xserver-xorg-video-intel (source: xserver-xorg-video-intel): X.Org X server -- Intel i8xx, i9xx display driver. In component main, is optional. Version 2:2.99.917+git20170309-0ubuntu1 (artful), package size 757 kB, installed size 3372 kB (Only available for amd64; i386; kfreebsd-amd64; kfreebsd-i386; x32)
<lotuspsychje> hmm i wonder why i get this update, i have ati
<lotuspsychje> cpu amd
<Bashing-om> Time ! g nite \o
<lotuspsychje> nite nite Bashing-om
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: make it the best you are able ... see ya :)
<shanu> Needed help in fixing a problem I am facing since morning. Since upgrading to ubuntu 17.10, I am unable to log into sites like amazon. Other sites like netflix do not open at all.
<lotuspsychje> shanu: this is the discuss channel use #ubuntu instead and have patience
<shanu> oh
<shanu> Somebody there pointed to discuss it here. That's why I posted
<lotuspsychje> shanu: they did not, it was meant for another user
<shanu> My bad
<ducasse> morning, all
<lotuspsychje> hey guys
<Donmel> Hi
<Donmel> Hello lovers
<lotuspsychje> hey Donmel
<Donmel> hi
<Donmel> Can you share your specs please
<lotuspsychje> Client: HexChat 2.12.4 â¢ OS: Ubuntu "bionic" 18.04 â¢ CPU: AMD C-60 APU with Radeon(tm) HD Graphics (800MHz) â¢ Memory: Physical: 3,5 GiB Total (2,6 GiB Free) Swap: 2,0 GiB Total (2,0 GiB Free) â¢ Storage: 73,7 GB / 129,5 GB (55,8 GB Free) â¢ VGA: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Wrestler [Radeon HD 6290] @ Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD] Family 12h/14h Processor Funct
<lotuspsychje> ion 5 â¢ Uptime: 9m 1s
<Donmel> nice
<Donmel> How do i share mine
<lotuspsychje> Donmel: are you on hexchat?
<TJ-> Donmel: I don't think my specs would suit your eyes
<lotuspsychje> lol
<Donmel> lol why wouldn't it suite me eyes
<Donmel> its good
<Donmel> Yes I am on hexchat
<lotuspsychje> Donmel: rightmouse/window/sysinfo
<Donmel> Client: HexChat 2.12.4 â¢ OS: Ubuntu "artful" 17.10 â¢ CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU         T5300  @ 1.73GHz (1.07GHz) â¢ Memory: Physical: 2.9 GiB Total (1.9 GiB Free) Swap: 2.0 GiB Total (2.0 GiB Free) â¢ Storage: 17.9 GB / 247.7 GB (229.8 GB Free) â¢ VGA: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS, 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller @ Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/PM/GMS, 943/940GML
<Donmel> and 945GT Express Memory Controller Hub â¢ Uptime: 40m 34s
<Donmel> Hows that for starters?
<lotuspsychje> pretty cool Donmel
<Donmel> But you got a graphics card
<Donmel> which distro are you using dear
<lotuspsychje> Donmel: look in my sysinfo
<Donmel> it says bionic
<Donmel> do you know which one I am using
<lotuspsychje> Donmel: yes, artful
<Donmel> but what is artful?
<lotuspsychje> Donmel: whats written behind artful?
<Donmel> Ubuntu
<lotuspsychje> behind
<Donmel> As in? 17.10?
<lotuspsychje> !yay
<ubot5> Glad you made it! :-)
<Donmel> :)
<Donmel> So do you know which one it is
<Donmel> Am I using Ubuntu / Lubuntu / Xubuntu , etc.?
<Donmel> Client: HexChat 2.12.4 â¢ OS: Ubuntu "artful" 17.10 â¢ CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU         T5300  @ 1.73GHz (800MHz) â¢ Memory: Physical: 2.9 GiB Total (2.6 GiB Free) Swap: 2.0 GiB Total (2.0 GiB Free) â¢ Storage: 17.9 GB / 247.7 GB (229.9 GB Free) â¢ VGA: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS, 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller @ Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/PM/GMS, 943/940GML
<Donmel> and 945GT Express Memory Controller Hub â¢ Uptime: 44m 37s
<lotuspsychje> Donmel: you just said lubuntu
<Donmel> ok.. but you couldn't get it from artful
<Donmel> Lotus
<Donmel> I got 4GB ram but its only detecting 2.9
<Donmel> I am pretty sure around 128MB is going on graphics memory
<lotuspsychje> Donmel: pretty cool specs for a lubuntu system
<lotuspsychje> !info preload | Donmel install this aswell
<ubot5> Donmel install this aswell: preload (source: preload): adaptive readahead daemon. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.6.4-2 (artful), package size 34 kB, installed size 135 kB
<TJ-> Donmel: if I recall correctly, the 945GM chipset can only address 4GB maximum (despite being a 64-bit chipset it only has 32 physical address lines)
<TJ-> Donmel: and due to needing up some for memory mapping I/O devices often the maximum available usable RAM is 3GB, less any reserved for the GPU
<lotuspsychje> hey DJones
<lotuspsychje> hey hey EriC^^
<EriC^^> hey lotuspsychje
<EriC^^> what's up?
<lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
<lotuspsychje> im bit testing stuff on bionic
<EriC^^> nice
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: can i add your git url to my topic?
<EriC^^> i removed the stuff for now, gonna fix it up more and add them back later
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: kk
<lotuspsychje> hey BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> Hiyas all
<EriC^^> hey BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> Hey lotuspsychje, EriC^^   ;-)
<BluesKaj> back on debian again
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: more stable?
<BluesKaj> I just like having it around , yeah it's like a rock :-)
<lotuspsychje> cool
<BluesKaj> still have Kubuntu 17.10 and 18.04
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: you tested loading times to desktop on bionic?
<lotuspsychje> im having a bug that takes long time from login to desktop
<lotuspsychje> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1742063
<ubot5> Ubuntu bug 1742063 in systemd (Ubuntu) "Systemd taking long time to boot into desktop 18.04" [Undecided,New]
<BluesKaj> lotuspsychje, yeah I had a long one too, but that was after debian was installed , the swap UUID had changed so i reinstalled the new entry from blkid
<BluesKaj> just installed the nvidia driver here on decian , so I'll have to reboot anyway, I'll check Bionic boot time
<BluesKaj> bbiab
<BluesKaj> took about 45 secs to boot Bionic to the desktop
<lotuspsychje> yeah same here
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: thats on kde on your side?
<BluesKaj> it's on a HDD, so not as fasr as debian and 17.10, which are on a ssd
<BluesKaj> yup all kde here
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: could you systemd-analyze blame plz?
<DJones> Afternoon all
<lotuspsychje> hey DJones
<DJones> Hi lotuspsychje
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: here's mine https://hastebin.com/inapexejuc.go
<lotuspsychje> bbl
<pauljw> hi everyone
<BluesKaj> 'Morning pauljw
<pauljw> good morning BluesKaj :)
<BluesKaj> how are you on this fine sat morning pauljw?.... jan thaw here , above freezing with sunshine :-)
<pauljw> yeah, same here.  i'm doing fine, you?  still white out there, but going to 50 this afternoon.
<BluesKaj> yeagh same here, but the snow is taking a beating
<BluesKaj> our local ski hill is in trouble , as are all the snowmobile trails
<BluesKaj> real winter has moved north this last couple of weeks
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: ive tested a system with nouveau/wayland with nvidia graphics working like a charm
<BluesKaj> yeah, nouveau works to some degree, i'm sure, but with multiple monitors?
<lotuspsychje> didnt test that part yet
<pauljw> :)
<lotuspsychje> http://www.linuxandubuntu.com/home/playonlinux-for-easier-use-of-wine
<jer> nouveau is garbage ... multiple monitors doesn't work, random lockups with a 1080 ti, poor performance, no cuda...
<lotuspsychje> jer: with wayland comming as default, you have alternatives?
<jer> lotuspsychje, waiting to see when/if nvidia will port their proprietary drivers to wayland before upgrading
<lotuspsychje> jer: alot of wayland users out there already on fedora
<jer> i'm not on 17.10 yet, and won't move up to any version that doesn't also give me an X11 option because these are things i need. nouveau doesn't work for me unfortunately =/
<jer> ok that's fine for them
<lotuspsychje> jer: we'll have to wait and see whats gonna happen at bionic release
<jer> well i suppose i sohuldn't say that, i do have one computer on 17.10 using wayland, but it's using the intel integrated graphics for gpu, and the nvidia gpu in it is not used for display at all. my main workstation though has no integrated gpu, so my choices are either go out and buy something with good driver support for use under wayland and upgrade, or stay where i am. =/
<jer> lotuspsychje, yeah i know. if i get cramped for time, it'll end up being taking a weekend and moving this machine off ubuntu and onto something else
<lotuspsychje> jer: you mean another flavor?
<jer> lotuspsychje, no i mean a different distribution
<lotuspsychje> right
<jer> anyway, that's how markets work =] something not satisfying your need or want, find something else. i like the idea of wayland, but i do need proprietary nvidia drivers or the nouveau drivers to get stable and fully featured soon. the latter is unlikely to happen (re: fully featured)
<lotuspsychje> jer: i think we at an impasse right now, ppl saying xorg is dead, future is wayland..but wayland not ready..
<lotuspsychje> and will other distro's do the wayland move like systemd did
<jer> lotuspsychje, it's a transitionary thing; wayland will never be ready if you don't force it on people -- more people == more bug reports == more interest in fixing them == quicker moving the product; sucks for users in the short term, but will be better in the long term. yes, xorg is not a modern rendering / windowing system
<lotuspsychje> yeah i agree on the forcing part, alot of bugs created on 17.10 and higher already about it
<lotuspsychje> jer: im testing bionic on 3 machines, 2 out of 3 still need xorg...and the funny part the only wayland going smooth is on nouveau lol
<jer> lotuspsychje, heh
<jer> of all the linux systems i have that have gpus, only one has anything other than an nvidia gpu for display -- and it's an intel based laptop =]
<jer> but that's also got problems re: power management in 17.10 so it stays off most of the time
<lotuspsychje> yeah
<TJ-> Does anyone remember the Ubuntu Holly Holbach release?
<lotuspsychje> no?
<lotuspsychje> whats that about TJ-
<TJ-> I just found it listed on changelogs.ubuntu.com :)
<TJ-> made me giggle... I suspect Seb Holbach added it and 'Holly' is his partner: http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/meta-release-unit-testing
<TJ-> obviously a 'red' herring release :D
<lotuspsychje> lol
<tomreyn> :)
<TJ-> tomreyn: there was something I spotted I was going to tell you about... but it's gone out of my head now!
<tomreyn> TJ-: sometime during the next night you'll remember, be sure to run to your keyboard and type it immediately!
<tomreyn> TJ-: before *I* forget (although i got to be afk for a bit shortly, sorry): you had shared your mainline kernel download script with me a while ago, wget_kernel_mainline.sh - i forgot to take note about a source location. do you have it on your github repository or somewhere else in git?
<TJ-> tomreyn: oh! I know. in the changelog server's meta-release entries they change the "ReleaseNotes" link when it goes EOL... I had the hair-brained idea of having update-manager use that as a trigger to warn of EOL but then realised it won't change until the EOL day itself
<TJ-> tomreyn: haha, I updated that recently to a little cleverer... let me check where it is
<TJ-> tomreyn: got it: http://iam.tj/projects/ubuntu/  ... you might also be interested in "grub_custom_sort_menu.tar.gz" which creates GRUB sub-menus for mainline and RC builds and prevents them being listed ahead of the regular Ubuntu kernels.
<lotuspsychje> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=GNOME-Wayland-GTK-Input-Proto
<TJ-> my wrapper for dpkg-divert is there too which I use with my package-content-replacement tooling to move files under /etc/dpkg-divert/{orginal-path} and then symlink my tooling from /usr/local/*
<TJ-> I'm currently tidying up all my tooling and adding documentation then I'm going to publically share the /usr/local/ file-system I share locally so anyone can mount/copy it
<tomreyn> TJ-: thank you! have you heard about versionioning systems? ;)
<TJ-> tomreyn: you mean git... i heard a whisper :p
<tomreyn> this kind of sounds like a good use case.
<TJ-> tomreyn: the reason for sharing /usr/local/ is so it can be mounted over NFS or sshfs
<TJ-> all my remote systems share it over VPN but there's so many useful things it makes sense to export the entire FS for hackers to enjoy
<tomreyn> i guess it would amke sense for your use case
<tomreyn> *also make
<TJ-> There's 15 years of accumulated tools and customisations I use so regularly I'm lost without them
<tomreyn> especially those i would not want to keep elsewhere than in a versioning system
<tomreyn> well you know what you're doing, i'm just trying to evangelize ;)
<TJ-> I use git for developing, even for /etc/ (triggered by an inotify watch for any WRITE,CLOSE changes)
<tomreyn> etckeeper?
<tomreyn> ah no that hooks into apt, inotify is even better i guess
<tomreyn> !info etckeeper
<ubot5> etckeeper (source: etckeeper): store /etc in git, mercurial, bzr or darcs. In component main, is optional. Version 1.18.5-1ubuntu1 (artful), package size 27 kB, installed size 154 kB
<TJ-> something I developed myself back around 2007 I think
<tomreyn> wasn't inotify only invented in 2010? ;)
<tomreyn> oh 2005 already
<TJ-> originally it was on a cron job then gained some sophistication
<TJ-> I think I got into inotify around 2008 when debugging it
<tomreyn> wikipedia: "Inotify was created by John McCutchan,[1] and it was merged into the Linux kernel mainline in kernel version 2.6.13, released on August 29, 2005;[2] later kernel versions included further improvements. The required library interfaces were added into the GNU C Library (glibc) in its version 2.4, released in March 2006, while the support for inotify was completed in glibc version 2.5, released in September 2006.[3]"
<tomreyn> debugging a file system filter sounds like ... oh look, a unicorn!
<tomreyn> if i was able to, it would not be  my favourite hobby
<TJ-> brings back memories actually; first major bug I found in Linux was around 2005 with a dmraid 1+0 on 4 disks where the kernel would cause the disk drives to crash their heads repeatedly against the end-stops because it was reading the MBR PT from the underlying disks and trying to seek on the first disk of a pair to a sector on the 2nd disk (which works when looking at the MD device of course)
<tomreyn> ouch
<tomreyn> i bet this saved a lot of people some money, including myself, thanks.
<tomreyn> well not just money, also a lot of annoyance / labor
<tomreyn> i'm impressed, and conclude you must be more than 20 years of age. :-P
<tomreyn> (i'm not 20 either)
<TJ-> not sure, had a to-and-fro with Linus in the LKML over it because my patch was in the partition handling code and he said it should be elsewhere, but couldn't say where, then when I produced a suitable patch refused to accept it because he didn't believe my name is "Tj" so I told him to go stuff it
<tomreyn> thats your actual first name?
<tomreyn> or did he just not like you abbreviating it
<TJ-> that's my entire name
<TJ-> I have this argument with so many people who try to tell me it can't be my name, or it's an acronym
<tomreyn> doh, that's short
<TJ-> hence my domain name to reinforce the point :)
<TJ-> pronounced "teej"
<tomreyn> i thought it was that domain name because you did not want to by the TLD.
<tomreyn> ..and did not want to expand the acroynm
<tomreyn> *buy
<TJ-> haha, I actually tried to buy it in the early 2000s when the USA company that was operating it was suspended, but it was handed over to the Tajik government as it is their CC TLD
<tomreyn> it's now managed by astute.ly though, which also do .ly, i think, and are just some agency
<tomreyn> isnt it?
<tomreyn> ah no i made that up apparently
<TJ-> No, astute.ly is another of my domains
<tomreyn> oh it seemed familiar
<tomreyn> gtg again, bbl
<tomreyn> thanks again for the updated script
<tomreyn> oh and if you can fix ubottu's HTTPS by chance...
<TJ-> ubottus!? not another broken
<lotuspsychje> bbl
<tomreyn> hehe
<tomreyn> well i just mean the website is unavailable for some days now
<TJ-> tomreyn: I think I lost track; I've been redeveloping everything internally before pushing it out - planning on nuking all the existing data-center stuff so not been bothering to maintain it
<tomreyn> okay, it doesn't seem like anyone can remember, and Pici (bot owner) doesn't respond, so...
<TJ-> tomreyn: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh you mean ubottu's factoids?
<tomreyn> TJ-: right
<tomreyn> aka https://ubottu.com/
<tomreyn> any idea how can fix it?
<oerheks> was there ever a certificate for ubottu.com?
<daftykins> i heard the ops alienated and then kicked out the real maker of ubottu
<TJ-> openssl s_client reports connect: Connection refused
<tomreyn> netcat, too
<tomreyn> and yes there was a certificate for ubottu.com
<tomreyn> https://censys.io/certificates/4ba8e9ae2ee2aa9804da41e7947ddae80d68dd90f6fe1ff5b2c32f24783e5a9f
<tomreyn> gandi DV
<tomreyn> there must have been a later one, though
<tomreyn> last spotted 4 days ago: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:6Tp2t0tW2vAJ:https://ubottu.com/
<tomreyn> bug reported :) maybe someone will read it sometime.
<tomreyn> i like how there is a bug tag "mess"
<TJ-> it's easier than trying to remember CVE numbers
#ubuntu-discuss 2018-01-21
<lotuspsychje> good morning to all
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: :) .. WB .
<lotuspsychje> hey Bashing-om
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Time to wakem up ! It's got slow again .
<lotuspsychje> ouch
<lotuspsychje> lets do it!
<pauljw> gnite all
<ducasse> morning, everyone
<oerheks> hi ducasse , earlybird
<ducasse> hi oerheks - how's your morning?
<oerheks> yesterday i picked up Pien from mama, had an early walk too
<oerheks> Drabber is jealous :-D
<oerheks> .. and oh so sweat today
<oerheks> And how are you and the missy?
<ducasse> we're good, thanks. just about to open the window so the little lady can see if she wants to go out. (i'm guessing she won't)
<oerheks> nice blue sky today, pretty cold, maybe we get finally some snow
<JanC> oerheks: unlikely you get snow when the sky is clear blue  :)
<JanC> there need to be clouds for that
<ducasse> really grey here, but not too cold. had even more snow yesterday..
<oerheks> oh, mystery solved
<JanC> freezing is possible, of course
<ducasse> oerheks: i was right. she went out a few steps, then reversed back inside :)
<oerheks> Piens first steps outside were 'omg, why?' .. but at the end she was really happy
<ducasse> i've had about enough of this snow for this winter, hope it melts soon.
<lotuspsychje> good sunday for all
<lotuspsychje> lotuspsychje@R00TBOOK:~$ systemd-analyze time
<lotuspsychje> Startup finished in 6.423s (kernel) + 13.908s (userspace) = 20.331s
<lotuspsychje> tweaked a few systemd services
<lotuspsychje> bleachbit cleanup 1gb and swappiness 10 on bionic
<EriC^^> afternoon everyone
<lotuspsychje> hey EriC^^
<EriC^^> hey lotuspsychje
<EriC^^> how's it going?
<lotuspsychje> fine here EriC^^
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: trimmed down a few systemd services
<lotuspsychje> Startup finished in 6.423s (kernel) + 13.908s (userspace) = 20.331s
<EriC^^> ncie
<EriC^^> *nice
<EriC^^> what's for lunch?
<lotuspsychje> vegetarian oven dish
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: what you havin mate
<lotuspsychje> hmm cool bots at #systemd
<lotuspsychje>  [sd-bot] (sztanpet@znc.sztanpet.net): http://sd-bot.sztanpet.net/
<EriC^^> thinking about ordering pizza hut
<EriC^^> watching any good movies today?
<lotuspsychje> mmmmm
<lotuspsychje> no :p
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: gonna make it movie day?
<EriC^^> if there's something good to watch sure
<EriC^^> there's a new movie but the quality is cam, The Commuter , liam neison
<EriC^^> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1590193/ 6.5/10 imdb
<lotuspsychje> aha yes
<lotuspsychje> that one plays in our theaters now
<EriC^^> aha
<EriC^^> seems ok
<lotuspsychje> i like liam
<EriC^^> yeah you better :P
<EriC^^> he will find you, and make you like him
<lotuspsychje> lol
<lotuspsychje> taken
<EriC^^> lotuspsychje: if you come back to life and you have to choose an animal, which one would you choose?
<lotuspsychje> an eagle
<EriC^^> nice, very nice
<lotuspsychje> always wanted to fly around a bit
<lotuspsychje> you?
<EriC^^> eagle is at the top of the food chain right?
<EriC^^> hmm i used to think orca, cause nothing eats it, it even eats great whites, plus they're playful and live in groups, also they have higher emotional intelligence than humans even and very intelligent
<lotuspsychje> wasnt that a lion?
<EriC^^> lately been thinking lions, they are pretty awesome
<EriC^^> lions you kind of get fucked
<lotuspsychje> i always like african cats docu
<EriC^^> 1/8 of males die
<EriC^^> lions, they have families called 'prides' and the women hunt, the males secure the territory, and help sometimes if they prey is very large
<lotuspsychje> yeah
<lotuspsychje> i always like the confrontations bewteen those wild animals
<EriC^^> and if other lion males come, and they dominate the pride males, then they take the women and become the males of the pride, and they kill the male cups so only their genes get passed on
<lotuspsychje> buffalo vs lions
<lotuspsychje> hyena vs lions etc
<EriC^^> yeah
<EriC^^> hyena's are very interesting, they're a matriarchal (sp?) society, the women are the dominant ones
<EriC^^> males always are less dominant than the females
<lotuspsychje> yeah
<lotuspsychje> hardest jaws of africa
<EriC^^> they're extremely dominant though, like if 2 are born, sister and bro, the sister is automatically dominant, if 2 brothers are born, even as infants they might kill eachother
<EriC^^> cause they're born mobile, with teeth, and can see
<EriC^^> the shitty part about lions though is that they eat so much, sometimes like 50kg, you need to hunt so much to stay not hungry
<EriC^^> i dunno if they're top of food chain though, like something else hunts them.. hmm
<lotuspsychje> the whole pact eats alot
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: did you see that wolf movie with liam?
<lotuspsychje> the grey are something?
<lotuspsychje> 6.8 imdb
<lotuspsychje> hey BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> Howdy foilks
<BluesKaj> Hi lotuspsychje
<EriC^^> lotuspsychje: nope i didnt
<EriC^^> what's the name of it?
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: the grey
<lotuspsychje> EriC^^: think your gonna like it
<EriC^^> man i was suprised the other day, hugh jackman is married to a girl he used to act with, she's 13 years older than him, 63 now, and he's 50, they've been married for 21 years! longest in hollywood maybe:P
<EriC^^> aha thanks lotuspsychje
<EriC^^> hey BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> Hi EriC^^
<BluesKaj> decided to try netfix again, but so far there's nothing that catches my interest .mosy movies seem to target "milllenials"...zombie and so called action movies ...bah. I'll probly cancel before the trial period is over...kind of disappointing really
<BluesKaj> netflix :-)
<lotuspsychje> BluesKaj: 10 dollar?
<BluesKaj> yeah
<BluesKaj> the US version has abetter selection due to the medisarights
<lotuspsychje> aha
<BluesKaj> media rights'
<lotuspsychje> i wouldnt spent money on it neither BluesKaj
<BluesKaj> think I'll cancel today
<lotuspsychje> yeah
<BluesKaj> done
<lotuspsychje> neat BluesKaj
<lotuspsychje> hey pauljw wb
<pauljw> hey lotuspsychje :)
<pauljw> everyone
<BluesKaj> 'Morning pauljw
<pauljw> hi BluesKaj
<lotuspsychje> oerheks: <lotuspsychje> !Netplan is Netplan is a utility for easily configuring networking on a system visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Netplan for more info
<lotuspsychje> <ubottu> Your edit request has been forwarded to #ubuntu-ops.  Thank you for your attention to detail
<oerheks> :-D
<lotuspsychje> bbl coffee & roomsoesjes
<lotuspsychje> good evening to all
<pauljw> hi lotuspsychje :)
<lotuspsychje> hey pauljw
<lotuspsychje> anyone knows a GUI systemd manager to enable/disable services?
<TJ-> yuk :)
<TJ-> !info systemd-ui
<ubot5> Package systemd-ui does not exist in artful
<hggdh> perhaps we should ask for it on *buntu?
<lotuspsychje> hggdh: yeah would be a nice idea
<lotuspsychje> hggdh: ive been tweaking it manually on bionic today, would be nice to have gui for users
<TJ-> it's defunct, it was in up to 17.04
<hggdh> lotuspsychje: yes, I agree. As soon as I finish cleaning the house I will try to search for such a bug and, if not found, open one
<TJ-> abandonware
<hggdh> oh
<hggdh> yeah, they are in stable and old-stable only
<hggdh> debian bug 864954 was the removal request, June 2017. Abandonware for (then) 3 years
<ubot5> Debian bug 864954 in ftp.debian.org "RM: systemd-ui -- RoQA/RoM; FTBFS, unmaintained" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/864954
<lotuspsychje> !info systemd-manager
<ubot5> Package systemd-manager does not exist in artful
<lotuspsychje> !info chkservice
<ubot5> Package chkservice does not exist in artful
<lotuspsychje> !info chkservice bionic
<ubot5> chkservice (source: chkservice): Tool for managing systemd units. In component universe, is optional. Version 0.1-2 (bionic), package size 40 kB, installed size 159 kB (Only available for linux-any)
<lotuspsychje> lemme try that
<lotuspsychje> TJ- hggdh thats looks pretty usefull
<TJ-> it was abandoned in 2014/15 from what I can see
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: why does bionic have it then?
<TJ-> where? I checked packages.ubuntu.com and it didn't show up as either -gui or -ui packages
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: well its from terminal, but graphically
<TJ-> which package is it in?
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: howto check
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: "dpkg -S <programname>"
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: https://paste.ubuntu.com/26432009/
<TJ-> so very new; Sept 2017
<hggdh> rmadison reports it in Bionic, version 0.1-2
<TJ-> right, from https://github.com/linuxenko/chkservice
<hggdh> and debian has it on testing and unstable
<TJ-> it's not GUI it's TUI - ncurses
<lotuspsychje> yeah its from terminal, but better then manual enable/disable TJ- ?
<TJ-> possibly; but makes it easy for someone to disable services because they think they don't need them and not tell us when asking for support
<lotuspsychje> also true
<TJ-> I'd much prefer "systemctl disable <service>" more likely they'll remember specifics when asked :)
<TJ-> you know what 'users' are like when they think that can optimise
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: well i disabled like 8 we dont really need by default, that makes system boot into desktop slow
<hggdh> as any tool that deals with low-level configuration, it can be abused by ignorant people
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: systemd's way of thinking, the users choice to disable what one needs?
<hggdh> (ignorant is not demeaning here)
<TJ-> hggdh: A little knowledge is dangerous
<hggdh> TJ-: aboslutely agree. But, on the other hand, a system built for idiots is only usable by idiots
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: I've found that allowing easy access to disable system services through easy clicks means folks will see things they don't recognise and disable them
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: thats true, but like orca? who really needs/uses that?
<lotuspsychje> cups for laptops?
<pauljw> freedom is such a messy business...
<TJ-> I need cups on laptops
<lotuspsychje> okay, advanced users :p
<hggdh> TJ-: also: I once installed sshguard, and then gave up on it, going back to fail2ban. I *did* apt purge it, but the systemd config was left in, enabled
<hggdh> now I can disable it with just hitting [space].
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: check what i disabled: https://paste.ubuntu.com/26432083/
<hggdh> of course, I should open a bug on sshguard as well
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: the issue is one of the user action not being easliy traceable by us during support - we assume the standard services are enabled so having to double-check on a lower level just makes the task more difficult and easy to miss
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: i totaly agree mate, but boot speed vs services security?
<TJ-> hggdh: haha, yeah, that can really catch you out when you execpt purge to cover everything
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: how often do people really reboot? and what is 30 seconds when most spend more time trying to decide where to put desktop icons or decide on filenames !?
<hggdh> ah well, so much for wishful thinking. Hitting [space] on sshguard.service returns "Falied: invalid argument" :-)
<lotuspsychje> hggdh: : (
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: i look at it this way, we install a bloody fast ssd, tweak system then systemd bottlenecks it again
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: same for braille support? regular user doesnt need it?
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: I use suspend/resume - it's instant
<TJ-> I've been using kexec for kernel updates recently too ... and finding a lot of bugs :D
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: well i placed a bug on bionic for being slow login to desktop already
<lotuspsychje> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1742063
<ubot5> Ubuntu bug 1742063 in systemd (Ubuntu) "Systemd taking long time to boot into desktop 18.04" [Undecided,New]
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: compared to 16.04 with systemd, this is really slow
<lotuspsychje> devs want bionic same feeling for the xenial updaters, so lets hope..
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: that's not systemd though, it's a service the desktop relies on. presumably plymouth and the wait-online
<TJ-> "systemd-analyze critical-chain" is really useful in these cases
<lotuspsychje> apt.daily took longest in my case, so disabled it, but takes ages to boot also
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: https://paste.ubuntu.com/26432164/
<TJ-> so it's taking 9 seconds to bring up the network - presumably Wifi - "NetworkManager-wait-online.service @3.992s +9.171s"
<TJ-> looks like teamviewer or it's reverse-depends might be slowing things down, have you tried disabling teamviewer as a test?
<TJ-> the rest is like the GUI initialising looking at that
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: teamviewer was not installed at time of the bug yet
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: apt.daily was ontop of the list, so tryed to disable unnattended updates
<TJ-> lotuspsychje: ok, so It looks like it takes up to 3.9 + 9.1 seconds for it to get online, the rest is getting the GUI started
<lotuspsychje> kk
<TJ-> I've seen a lot of 18.04 bugs in the gnome-session causing delays
<lotuspsychje> yeah
<lotuspsychje> lets hope all that gets fixxed TJ-
<lotuspsychje> hey Bashing-om a
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Hiya ! Have I missed much during my snooze time ?
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: yeah pretty active session here
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Great, lemme refill the caffine dispenser and I settle in :)
<lotuspsychje> yess
<lotuspsychje> we need more hands
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: - See what I can do :P
<TJ-> !hwe
<ubot5> The Ubuntu LTS enablement stacks provide newer kernel and X support for existing LTS releases, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/LTSEnablementStack
<lotuspsychje> Bashing-om: gopal amdgpu-radeon issue on xenial, nukem 120sec kworker shotdown time on xenial & artful (nomodeset)
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Not to hot on hybrid AMD ,,, My take on it is that it is not too functional as of this time .
<TJ-> this is weird, it's like the amdgpu driver doesn't recognise the device but I checked it declares the modalias that matches the GPU
<TJ-> and lspci confirms that, listing amdgpu as an option
<TJ-> as seen here https://paste.ubuntu.com/26432284/
<lotuspsychje> !info linux-image-generic xenial
<ubot5> linux-image-generic (source: linux-meta): Generic Linux kernel image. In component main, is optional. Version 4.4.0.109.114 (xenial), package size 2 kB, installed size 13 kB
<TJ-> the radeon driver did bind to it
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: i think dax got an amdgpu working
<Bashing-om> TJ-: Might gets some hints in the /var/log/gpu-manager.log file ??
<TJ-> Bashing-om: does that cover kernel module loading? hmmm, these hybrids annoy me
<Bashing-om> TJ-: Yes, it does .. will have that notification if a module does not load .
<lotuspsychje> nice find Bashing-om
<Bashing-om> lotuspsychje: Won't give a solution but sure tells of a serious problem :)
 * lotuspsychje thinks alot of supporting will be needed on 18.04...
<TJ-> this is getting painful
<Bashing-om> TJ-: AMD hybrid in my experience is painful now-a-days .
<lotuspsychje> amdgpu,nvidia...wayland
<Bashing-om> TJ-: IRT gopal " The device is not bound to any driver. Skipping..." Have nessed with this before, and have yet to find a solution . several bugs open woth that -25/26 kernel .
<TJ-> yes, things getting worse not better
<TJ-> Bashing-om: I have an idea about that not binding...
<TJ-> ... the modalias might match on the primary vendor:device ID but not the sub-system vendor:device ID - in this case the sub-system is 103c:81ec: "Subsystem: Hewlett-Packard Company Sun XT [Radeon HD 8670A/8670M/8690M / R5 M330] [103c:81ec]"
<TJ-> no, I'm wrong, the modalias is a wildcard for sv:sd
<TJ-> Â modinfo -F alias amdgpu | grep '1002.*6660'
<TJ-> pci:v00001002d00006660sv*sd*bc*sc*i*
<Bashing-om> TJ-: And there is this " Removing xorg.conf. Path: /etc/X11/xorg.conf " .. for the switching to work, got to have this config file, yes ?
<TJ-> I don't know, but by then it's too late!
<TJ-> Error: can't access /sys/bus/pci/devices/0000:01:00.0/driver
<TJ-> The device is not bound to any driver. Skipping...
<TJ-> ^^^ that's the issue
<TJ-> *why* is amdgpu not binding and /not/ reporting any problem in kernel log
<Bashing-om> TJ-: As said, seen it before, I have no solution - will be real glad to learn as WE will see this again and again .
<TJ-> I'm going to try to get him to try the 4.15rc8 mainline build
<lotuspsychje> TJ-: interesting for nukem? https://www.blackmoreops.com/2014/09/22/linux-kernel-panic-issue-fix-hung_task_timeout_secs-blocked-120-seconds-problem/
<TJ-> can't imagine slow I/O on a fresh install on bare hardware unless the device is dying
<lotuspsychje> weird he's got it on both ubuntu versions right?
<TJ-> yes, on bare metal and in a Windows-host+VirtualBox
<TJ-> Could one of you test my mainline download tool? I think first time it's used it may ask you to install the kernel PPA signing cert . run it as "./wget_kernel_mainline.sh -d" (download only mode - won't install)
<TJ-> From http://iam.tj/projects/ubuntu/wget_kernel_mainline.sh
<TJ-> if gopal asks I want to be ready !
<TJ-> I'm a dolt! I can do it in a container, sorry!
<hggdh> TJ-: but seems to work (I ran with -l and -d only)
<hggdh> ls
<TJ-> hggdh: did it not prompt to add a signing key? maybe you already have the key
<hggdh> TJ-: I probably already have it, have used the mainline before
<Bashing-om> TJ-: hold my hand as I get " bash: ./wget_kernel_mainline.sh: No such file or directory " runninh just " ./wget_kernel_mainline.sh -d " .
<hggdh> nope
<TJ-> Bashing-om: did you run it on a file-system with 'noexec' set, or not do "chmod +x wget-kernel_mainline.sh" ?
<hggdh> signature checking failed
<TJ-> hggdh: Grrr, and I got "./wget_kernel_mainline.sh: line 102: gpg2: command not found" in the container :D
<TJ-> I also got "  do you need to add the package signing key to the system keyring?"
<hggdh> after manuall importing the key, I re-run it, and sig was checked
<hggdh> now, it would be nice for the tool to print out, at the end, where it saved the kernel(s)
<TJ-> good point .. sub-dir with the version
<TJ-> the nice thing it is doesn't re-download anything it already fetched so you can re-run it
<hggdh> yes, I saw that. But I got the file "mainline-kernel.list" on the cwd
<hggdh> TJ-: nice. Better than manually grabbing the debs
<TJ-> yes, without args it fetches the latest, else the version you specify on the cmdline
<lotuspsychje> holy smoking! https://bugs.freedesktop.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=nvidia
<hggdh> TJ-: thank you :-)
<TJ-> hggdh: I've pushed a revised version to my server
<hggdh> seems good. Now I simply ran it, and installation was OK
<TJ-> you may also like my http://iam.tj/projects/ubuntu/grub_custom_sort_menu.tar.gz which adds sub-menus to GRUB for mainline and rc builds to prevent them being the default entries
<TJ-> and the dpkg-divert wrapper I have there which goes in /usr/local/sbin/ to auto-create directories in the dpkg-divert rename path
<hggdh> TJ-: downloaded, will check as soon as I have time (still have to finish cleaning the house, and then have to send out my expense report for the week (*must* be ent today, or they delay payment)
<TJ-> I use it to move everything under /etc/dpkg-divert/...original-path/file to make it simple to see what I've moved in 1 heirachry
<TJ-> hggdh: :)
<TJ-> Can I just resign now!? I feel like I'm going down a rabbit hole
<lotuspsychje> enough for today..
<lotuspsychje> laterz guys
<Bashing-om> TJ-: Nope, too far in to back out now :) .. we all be looking over your shoulder see what we can learn .
<Bashing-om> TJ-: Still looking but : https://askubuntu.com/questions/939689/installing-oibafs-drivers-for-amd-r5-m430-on-ubuntu-16-04/939693 seems to suggest there is no driver for that card . PPA .
<TJ-> weird, since both radeon and amdgpu both declare a modalias for it
<TJ-> this bug ioria discovered looks spot on
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-01-15
<pizzaiolo> til wordpress has a desktop app, also til that app is 'meh'
<OerHeks> what happens when you 'migrate a system' without telling details...
<daftykins> it gets arrested and deported!
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-01-16
<OerHeks> sarnold, what is <keyrcbot>
<sarnold> OerHeks: I assume it's one of those annoying relaybot
<sarnold> I haven't got a clue what's the other side of the relay :)
<OerHeks> sort of tegramm?
<OerHeks> i think it is not wanted, or maybe i am wrong
<sarnold> they're moderately annoying, but so long as it appears to be used by just one person..
<sarnold> every now and then someone wants to use a bot to join together oftc and freenode and matrix and telegram and .... NOOOO
<leftyfb> gotta love the ones that profess their disdain for ubuntu and troll, yes insist they're there for help
<leftyfb> he's begging for it
<leftyfb> just got gigabit internet with an LTE failover modem. I just tested the failover, it's almost instant. Can't get over how nice this is.
<sarnold> wow
<sarnold> not at all what I'd expect
<leftyfb> it fails over in less than a minute. Maybe 5 or 10 seconds or so. Mind you, the failover is part of the Ubiquiti USG (router) that I have. Nothing to do with the modem.
<leftyfb> they even included a pretty decent APC UPS just for the LTE modem
<leftyfb> now I just gotta get them to completely disable this "Security Edge" that apparently filters my DNS regardless if I have the service disabled or not. That isn't going to fly
<lordievader> Good morning
<lotuspsychje> good afternoon
<TJ-> or morning :)
<lotuspsychje> hey TJ-
<daftykins> \o
<TJ-> My apprentice is having fun building a complex RasPi project and hitting some interesting problems. Currently the LCD orientiation at boot-time won't rotate ... so now he's trying to assemble the pan-tilt camera unit. Extremely entertaining
<daftykins> :)
<daftykins> and no more trouser dropping thus far?
<TJ-> LoL I best clear the screen before he sees that comment
<daftykins> xD oops
<daftykins> how's the weather up north? i've heard talk of a storm interrupting our shipping here to the islands but no sign of anything special
<pizzaiolo> morning
<daftykins> heya
<TJ-> Sunny here as far as I can tell :)
<pizzaiolo> mist and light rain here, aka free car wash
<jeremy31> Just cold here 0F
<daftykins> it's always very mild here on Guernsey, 11 deg C today
<pragmaticenigma> !19.04
<ubot5> Ubuntu 19.04 (Disco Dingo) is the 30th release of Ubuntu, supported until January 2020.  Release Notes: http://ubottu.com/y/dingo
<leftyfb> interesting how it just says "January". No actual date
<pragmaticenigma> yeah.. but it's enough for me to say no go
<pragmaticenigma> it's 9 months from release... so techincally 2020-01-18 ??
<leftyfb> 2 more days os support! :)
<tomreyn> there was an announcement on the ubuntu-announce mailing lit providing the exact date
<tomreyn> *liSt
<pragmaticenigma> lit up!
<tomreyn> leftyfb: so, about subone / unclean ntfs, you're saying disabling windows "fast startup" (Control Panel > Hardware and Sound > Power Options > System Setting > Choose what the power buttons do and uncheck the Turn on fast startup box) is no longer needed?
<pragmaticenigma> oh... that's needed
<leftyfb> tomreyn: it'll certainly help, but it won't fix the issue. And it won't always prevent the issue.
<tomreyn> ok, took me a while to re-find that so i didn't tell subone in time before they left. we should do so if / when they return
<tomreyn> https://www.addictivetips.com/windows-tips/what-is-fast-startup-windows-8-disable-it/
<tomreyn> also the RTC registry patch may be nice to have
<tomreyn> s/RTC/UTC/
<tomreyn> for making windows not set loccal time on the HW clock
<daftykins> i always used to go the other way and tell 'buntu to leave it alone ;)
<tomreyn> you can do that, but that feels wrong to me. :)
<pragmaticenigma> I know that Windows being left in it's hybrid sleep states, or hibernate has always causes Ubuntu to think the drive was "unclean"
<pragmaticenigma> I thought fast boot just left a marker in the firmware to boot directly to windows at net start up... didn't know it also left the drive in any unclean state
<tomreyn> HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation
<tomreyn> i mean https://askubuntu.com/questions/232405/how-do-i-set-my-clock-in-windows-to-utc-localtime
<pragmaticenigma> that's a handy link
<leftyfb> people should never be hibernating. With any OS. It NEVER works 100% as it should. There is always something no put back right or something in a weird state. With SSD's and PC's the way they are today, you're really not saving yourself that much time anyway
<tomreyn> explanation of the need for fast startup https://askubuntu.com/questions/452071/why-disable-fast-boot-on-windows-8-when-having-dual-booting
<tomreyn> uh, i mean the need to disable fast startup
<tomreyn> not strictly needed, but i think you want to on dual-boot with shared file systems
<leftyfb> oh man, SO happy. Got my ISP to remove that "Security Edge" (DNS filtering) without affecting my bundle price ... AND it even brought my bill down a little bit
<daftykins> i agree, sleep and hibernate are a waste of time
<daftykins> leftyfb: how long was the call? :) was it a known evil ISP?
<leftyfb> daftykins: I got a good rep. Knew exactly what I was asking for and looked up the agreement and said he didn't see anything requiring that service as part of the bundle. And yes, it's that ISP
<leftyfb> unfortunately, unless I want DSL, it's my only option
<daftykins> pesky 'murica, mad how things got that way
<leftyfb> The call was 14 minutes but also included some banter
<pragmaticenigma> leftyfb: Can you not configure your own DNS provider for your network?
<leftyfb> I'm SO excited about the LTE backup modem. I've tested it twice now and it's just about instant failover
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: I can, but Comcast routes all traffic to their filtering system regardless, then out to your configured nameserver. This is why I wanted it removed.
<daftykins> interesting, i've got a Huawei 5G router trial setup up at a clients right now - i moved all their home network onto it instead of their 40/5 Mb VDSL2
<leftyfb> sorry, all DNS traffic
<leftyfb> daftykins: the cable modem and LTE modem are both plugged into my Ubiquiti gateway as a failover relationship
<daftykins> that the USG?
<daftykins> seen those but quite happy with pfsense on amd APU boards myself :D
<pragmaticenigma> leftyfb: I did not know that... though I've switched my DNS server over to a DNSCrypt provider... not sure they can touch that one
<pragmaticenigma> *forwarding dns server
<leftyfb> daftykins: yeah, the USG
<pragmaticenigma> leftyfb: How would someone know if that is enabled on their connection or not?
<daftykins> surely it's on your ISP accounts in some fashion o0
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: they can. It's all DNS (port 53) traffic. It all gets routed through their servers regardless of how you have it configured. Unless you're not using port 53
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: I THINK There might be some tracing you can do, but I found out from a tier 2 rep at Comcast.
<leftyfb> "Web Filter Protection is now off.To safeguard your network, Malware, Phishing and Botnet Protection remains on."
<leftyfb> that is pretty telling
<pragmaticenigma> Where do you find that leftyfb ?
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: in the SecurityEdge portal
<leftyfb> https://securityedge.comcast.com/ after disabling the web filtering in the top right
<pragmaticenigma> is that accessable through the main customer service/account site?
<leftyfb> yeah, if you have the service
<leftyfb> I'm not sure it's available to residential accounts. I have a business account
<pragmaticenigma> ah, it's only for business... yeah, I'm residential
<leftyfb> I do some web and email hosting. I've got 13 static ip's
<leftyfb> been doing it for about 20 years now :)
<pragmaticenigma> that would explain why you wouldn't want their edge router filtering enabled
<leftyfb> god knows what they prevent that I have no control over
<pragmaticenigma> as for my setup... I'm not sure what port dnscrypt uses... if comcast is doing any filtering, it hasn't been a problem for my purposes though
<pragmaticenigma> *so far
<leftyfb> looks like 443
<leftyfb> spiffy
<pragmaticenigma> As far as my network is concerned, PiHole is my local forwarding DNS provider, and I have that pointed to an instance of DNSCrypt, which then uses the DNSCrypt protocol to query my DNS provider
<leftyfb> yeah, I had a pihole and it did a VERY weird thing to my network so I ripped it out. I might give it another try
<pragmaticenigma> So if there was any filtering going on at Comcast, for my network, my setup and settings are probably catching it way before theirs do
<pragmaticenigma> leftyfb: I had a weird issue, but that was when I enabled conditional forwarding
<leftyfb> for some reason (and it makes absolutely no sense), after a while, ALL outbound DNS traffic would stop. Regardless if I reconfigured a device to use an external nameserver. Only when I turned it off and rebooted my USG did I get dns traffic back. Makes no sense at all
<pragmaticenigma> almost sounds like what I just descibed... Conditional Forwarding was pinging my router for the DHCP registered host names... my router was just fowarding those requests back to the PiHole... created a loop
<pragmaticenigma> I'd find that I had billions of requests overnight
<pragmaticenigma> and dns responses were timing out
<leftyfb> maybe I'll look into that and give it another try
<pragmaticenigma> I really enjoy when friends come over and hop on my guest network and then can't do half the stuff they're used to
<pragmaticenigma> google searches are really fun for them
<pragmaticenigma> "click on first result.. which is always a Google ad" won't let them through
<leftyfb> yeah, I have the pihole setup at my fathers house. He said things were broken for this ^^^ same reason
<leftyfb> I had to explain to him
<leftyfb> first I showed him what it would take to allow them to work
<pragmaticenigma> I got tired of getting snared by it, I switched to using DuckDuckGo for searching now
<leftyfb> after whitelisting 5 forwarded clickad sites, we gave up
<pragmaticenigma> The one item that's on the filtering list is geoip... which I can't figure out why... having that blocked disables so many things
<pragmaticenigma> especially streaming providers
<pragmaticenigma> !grub
<ubot5> GRUB2 is the default Ubuntu boot manager. Lost GRUB after installing Windows? See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestoreGrub - For more information and troubleshooting for GRUB2 please refer to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2
<pragmaticenigma> !restore
<sarnold> tomreyn: I suspect you're right, I don't see any -oem kernels on the kernel sru dashboard https://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/dashboards/web/kernel-stable-board.html
<tomreyn> sarnold: oh nice, i've never seen this.
<sarnold> the baffling array of kernels makes a lot more sense after seeing this :)
<tomreyn> sarnold: there are linux-oem's though, if only in 18.04
<tomreyn> and focal
<sarnold> tomreyn: I thought I left out part of that sentence when writing it.. sigh :)
<tomreyn> so i guess that's what you mean
<sarnold> yeah
<sarnold> no -oems except in the LTSes
<tomreyn> yes. but.. then i guess users' should be warned not to upgrade to 9m releases
<tomreyn> anyways, surely someone has thought of this ;)
<sarnold> fully agreed
<sarnold> I'm not sure they have
<TJ-> But it's Dell !
<TJ-> "only LTS"
 * tomreyn notes trolling attempt
<sarnold> do-release-upgrade probably requires -d to take those steps but it's not at all clear that on those oem machines it's a BAD IDEA and elsewhere it's just "have fun upgrading every six months for two years"
<tomreyn> well there's a gui where you can just switch what you'Re tracking, and there are most likely no warnings about it doing that
<sarnold> I think it's even worse than that, I've heard some of those machines are basically locked to that release / ppa / and there's NO PLAN AT ALL for migrating off of it
<tomreyn> software-properties-gtk --open-tab=2
<tomreyn> did i meantion i plan to migrate to debian?
<TJ-> sarnold: yes, that's how I understand it ... and often its only 1 LTS (the one at release time)
<sarnold> tomreyn: aw :( we'll miss you
<tomreyn> but i'm really trying hard to make sure that's not the case!
<sarnold> I don't think I'll ever buy any of those 'ubuntu preinstalled' systemns. those 'enabled' repos feel pretty poorly managed to me -- not all the oems want to pay for getting the enablements necessary into upstream projects or similar
<tomreyn> -oem was probably another potential source of revenue that was just too attractive. but, yes, i'm not sure this pays off in the long run.
<TJ-> it's another strand of the 'embedded' kernel world really
<tomreyn> unbreakable linux?
<TJ-> feels rather like the Android kernel/device situation
<TJ-> out-of-tree/hard-to-find-source modules/tweaks
<tomreyn> a recipe for a prolonged headache
<tomreyn> unless you can just throw load of money on it for 3 years (then dump it) because you're google, of course.
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-01-17
<lotuspsychje_> good morning
<oerheks> on this day in 2008, Sun Microsystems announced it was acquiring MySQL for $1B
<oerheks> 15 months later ..
<lotuspsychje> troll gang hour
<lotuspsychje> lets ask random unsolvable stuff for 5min
<lotuspsychje> funny
<leftyfb> what is this all about? "<Hanumaan> [Kiran Kumar Telukunta, IndiaYouth] hurt_locker,"
<pragmaticenigma> dunno.. starting to get annoying
<pragmaticenigma> great move... let's support 16.04 longer with someone that's goign to find more broken packages to complain about
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: 16.04 is till supported and for another year. We should still help them
<lotuspsychje> !eol
<ubot5> End-Of-Life is when security updates and support for an Ubuntu release stop. Make sure to update Ubuntu before it goes EOL so you get updates promptly for newly-discovered security vulnerabilities. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOL and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases for more info. Looking to upgrade from an EOL release? See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades
<lotuspsychje> april 2021
<leftyfb> that's over a year away
<leftyfb> I still run 16.04 on my servers and support thousands of robots running it as well
<pragmaticenigma> Yeah... let's help someone limp along a broken install that they just did. When all this could be fixed and we won't hear about the next thing they find not to their liking because the version is 6 years old
<lotuspsychje> maybe we will get lucky and when xenial goes eol, support will grow again
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: you're only basing that on a segfault from 1 package. Nothing else has shown they have a broken install
<pragmaticenigma> leftyfb: no... I'm basing it off of "I just installed 16.04" which I don't understand why anyone would do unless they had a specific purpose
<leftyfb> oh. .. hm, I missed that
<leftyfb> well that's silly
<pragmaticenigma> server, I get it, developer targetting specific development software... I get it... installing it watch movies... huh?
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: you're right then
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn: xenial will also have 3y ESM extend right on your !eol edit
<leftyfb> hey TJ- , any idea how to fix /dev/random taking a long time to get going within initramfs?
<TJ-> leftyfb: generate more entropy :)
<TJ-> or use urandom
<leftyfb> TJ-: how? Without touching the keyboard? (no mouse)
<leftyfb> TJ-: I tried telling curl to use urandom but it didn't seem to help
<pragmaticenigma> Doesn't some of the entropy get built out of the network traffic?
<leftyfb> you would think
<leftyfb> I tried writing a couple gig to /dev/null but it didn't really help
<pragmaticenigma> I found the perfect article... stuck behind a paywall... thanks redhat
<TJ-> what is trying to read /dev/random ?
<TJ-> if you mean curl itself is hanging because it is trying to derive random data for negotiating a TLS ephermal key, then use "curl --random-file /dev/unrandom ..."
<pragmaticenigma> this article recommends haveged to help stir the pot: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-add-more-entropy-to-improve-cryptographic-randomness-on-linux/
<leftyfb> TJ-: As soon as I boot, I need to read from an https source, so SSL, which needs entropy
<TJ-> or even "/dev/urandom" :)
<TJ-> see "man curl" and "--random-file"
<leftyfb> TJ-: I already tried that, didn't make a difference
<TJ-> leftyfb: hmmm what is curl linked to? maybe libssl is the cause?
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: already tried that as well
<pragmaticenigma> suppose it doesn't start early enough in the boot process?
<leftyfb> TJ-: I have curl and openssl pulled in via hooks
<leftyfb> pragmaticenigma: I'm running all this in init-bottom , which I think is as close as I can get
<TJ-> leftyfb: hmmm... I *think* there is an entropy stirring tool but can't recall what it is
<leftyfb> I tried haveged, but also didn't make much of a difference
<leftyfb> and rngd
<TJ-> what arch is this on?
<leftyfb> ubuntu 18.04 amd64
<TJ-> leftyfb: have you seen 5.1.5 and lins from that? https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.html
<leftyfb> there's no systemd in initramfs
<TJ-> I was referring to "If you read this after upgrading a remote system to buster, ping the system on the network continuously as this adds entropy to the randomness pool and the system will eventually be reachable by ssh again. "
<TJ->  and the lin to wiki etc
<TJ-> grrr, s/lin/link/
<ice9> how much performance loss between using the discrete card as primary GPU and using PRIME?
<lotuspsychje> ice9: wich graphics card are we talking about exactly?
<ice9> lotuspsychje, nvidia
<ice9> and prop driver
<lotuspsychje> thats the brand yes, do you know the exact chipset of your card?
<ice9> lotuspsychje, 940mx
<ice9> geforce
<lotuspsychje> ice9: so your card is optimus capable and can be switched between powersaving mode and performance mode, what do you want to know exactly?
<ice9> lotuspsychje, what do you mean by powersaving mode, (using the igpu)?
<lotuspsychje> ice9: powersaving uses intel and performance mode nvidia
<ice9> lotuspsychje, great, that's works fine on windows, but on linux you have to either use nvidia the primary GPU for ALL output or use PRIME to switch for it when needed
<ice9> my question is that, is there any performance loss when using switching with prime?
<lotuspsychje> ice9: switching what?
<lotuspsychje> ice9: how about you run nvidia-settings and tell wich mode you have active?
<lotuspsychje> ice9: 'if' your question means switching from powersaving to performance and vice versa, obviously its a big gain or loss
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-01-18
<guiverc> I've seen lots of users with issues using 18.04 with kernel 5.3???  I booted a 18.04 system & fully-upgraded and still get 5.0; O realize 5.3 is in proposed; but are others getting 5.3?  (ie. my mirror is behind which isn't abnormal)
<tomreyn> guiverc: apt policy linux-image-generic-hwe-18.04   ->   https://termbin.com/fc06
<tomreyn> so not just proposed
<Bashing-om> !info linux-generic-hwe-18.04 bionic
<ubot5> linux-generic-hwe-18.04 (source: linux-meta-hwe): Complete Generic Linux kernel and headers. In component main, is optional. Version 5.3.0.26.95 (bionic), package size 1 kB, installed size 12 kB (Only available for i386; amd64; armhf; arm64; ppc64el; s390x)
<guiverc> thanks tomreyn & Bashing-om  (I've shutdown my 18.04 box; it'll be my mirror is 6-18 hours behind..)
<tomreyn> guiverc: so you don't use security.ubuntu.com?
<guiverc> nope; to avoid bandwidth quotas I've used my ISP's mirror (official or on launchpad mirror site);  I'm slowly changing boxes to normal repos
<tomreyn> i see.
<lotuspsychje> good morning
 * guiverc notices my amd64 & i386 boxes have now upgraded to 5.3 on 18.04
 * oerheks noticed that too, early HWE-edge to HWE
<oerheks> and clang9 update somewhere
<lotuspsychje> !info linux-image-generic-hwe-18.04
<ubot5> linux-image-generic-hwe-18.04 (source: linux-meta-hwe): Generic Linux kernel image. In component main, is optional. Version 5.3.0.26.95 (bionic), package size 2 kB, installed size 12 kB (Only available for i386; amd64; armhf; arm64; ppc64el; s390x)
<lotuspsychje> yay
<lotuspsychje> now wait for the kernel issues to come in :p
<oerheks> intel gpu issues?
<guiverc> I'd already noted a number (lp filings, askubu more than irc)... I asked question here before you came online as my mirror still had only 5.0
<lotuspsychje> nothing specific crosses my mind oerheks but kernel switches always do
<oerheks> https://twitter.com/RedDrip7/status/1217771072180801537 .. signed ..
<oerheks> https://twitter.com/BleepinComputer/status/1218317605620023302
<oerheks> redmond in deep trouble, besides citrix
<oerheks> me want some cash, microsoft says no https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOgDyfkWoAAliXB.png
<guiverc> :)  @ atm
<ducasse> good morning
<tomreyn> hey lotuspsychje, you said "tomreyn: xenial will also have 3y ESM extend right on your !eol edit" - which i missed, sorry. let's see what !eol is:
<tomreyn> !eol
<ubot5> End-Of-Life is when security updates and support for an Ubuntu release stop. Make sure to update Ubuntu before it goes EOL so you get updates promptly for newly-discovered security vulnerabilities. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOL and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases for more info. Looking to upgrade from an EOL release? See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades
<tomreyn> i don't understand which change you suggest, though, you're saying you'd like to mention xenial in this message?
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn: on the community eol page, you placed # next to trusty as ESM link
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn: my suggest was to also add that link next to xenial
<tomreyn> oh yes, thank you, got it
<lotuspsychje> thank you tomreyn
<tomreyn> you still have no wiki edit permissions? :-/
<lotuspsychje> its nothing for me tomreyn sorry, i cant help it
<tomreyn> ok
<tomreyn> lotuspsychje: do we have an announcement for it?
<tomreyn> (i.e. where did you read about it?)
<lotuspsychje> not yet no
<lotuspsychje> !esm
<ubot5> Canonical offers paid extended security support for end-of-life LTS releases through the Ubuntu Advantage program. For more information, see https://ubuntu.com/esm . ESM is not an Ubuntu community offering; please direct questions about it to Canonical directly.
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn: under alinea: How long will Ubuntu ESM be maintained?
<lotuspsychje> but too early for email list announcement of course
<tomreyn> thanks, added
<lotuspsychje> tnx tomreyn looking good!
<tomreyn> i'm not sure how actively i'll maintain this page in the future, though. may need to remove it at some point if gets outdated.
<lotuspsychje> exactly the reason why i dont want to edit wiki's myself :p
<tomreyn> it helped me getting a better understanding, and maybe others, too, so the time spent was worth it.
<lotuspsychje> i bet
<lotuspsychje> !find ds4drv
<ubot5> Found: W:, W:, W:, W:, W:, W:, W:, W:, W:, W: (and 382 others) http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=ds4drv&searchon=names&suite=bionic&section=all
<lotuspsychje> !info bluez bionic
<ubot5> bluez (source: bluez): Bluetooth tools and daemons. In component main, is optional. Version 5.48-0ubuntu3.2 (bionic), package size 952 kB, installed size 4420 kB
<daftykins> someone trying to use a Playstation 4 dualshock 4 controller in 'buntu? :)
<lotuspsychje> yeah daftykins
<lotuspsychje> ds4drv git bit old though and bug #1511855 says fixxed from kernel 4.5
<ubot5> bug 1511855 in linux (Ubuntu) " Some Sony Dualshock 4 controllers do not work in kernel 3.15+" [Low,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511855
<daftykins> 4 years out o' date
<lotuspsychje> yeah
<daftykins> heh yeah there we go, works fine over wired
<lotuspsychje> yep i asked the guy, says over usb works out of the box
<lotuspsychje> im surprised there arent newer bugs on that
#ubuntu-discuss 2020-01-19
<pragmaticenigma> Just discovered yesterday... there are no 32bit ISO for the netinstaller mini.iso anymore... bummer :-(
<tomreyn> even for 18.04?
<tomreyn> pragmaticenigma: how about http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/bionic-updates/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/
<pragmaticenigma> tomreyn, after 18.04
<tomreyn> oh ok, that's not surprising to me then.
<pragmaticenigma> I was hoping they might continue to release 32bit through that means... but I guess they really want to cut all 32bit support where they can
<pragmaticenigma> I get that 32bit machines are becoming far less common. I've already found another means to keeping my 32bit machines going a bit longer through the use of another Debian based distribution.
<pragmaticenigma> 32bit Ubuntu was getting to be too much for my machines to handle anyways, even running something like Xubuntu or Lubuntu was struggling
<tomreyn> puppylinux will probably "work" for a while longer. i wouldn't use it for processing any sensitive data but you should be able to burn some watts at least ;)
<pragmaticenigma> these old machines mostly serve for entertainment purposes. I installed MX Linux on them. They're approach seems to reduce the overhead enough to get things running smoothly
<pragmaticenigma> *Their
<pragmaticenigma> I think as long as Debian devs keep it going, there will be 32 bit support in the Debian branch for a while
<pragmaticenigma> how long before packages themselves get to be too big, that's a matter to worry about on another day
<tomreyn> debian will probably support i386 a while longer, too, but i guess it'll become a port.
<tomreyn> *unoffical* port, i mean
<pragmaticenigma> hard to say... RPi's are still 32bit
<tomreyn> yes, but arm, not intel
<pragmaticenigma> right, but still means a need for 32 bit software. The compilers handle the archetecture differences (at least good compilers will)
<tomreyn> the reason ubuntu is dropping support is that kernel development for i386 is being phased out. that's not the case for 32-bit ARM platforms as far as i know. if ubuntu had continued to support i386 till 20.04 it'd have to have done ESM for another 10 years, effectively mataining an otherwise dead kernel architecture.
<tomreyn> debian has shorter lifecycles so it's an easier decision there, i guess.
<pragmaticenigma> ah, that would make sense
<pragmaticenigma> I don't follow kernel news, as I've found it too chaotic to follow
<tomreyn> actually, i386 development is still happening on the kernel according to https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/tip/tip.git/refs/heads but at a slower pace, i think. some spectre patches took months after amd64 release to be developed there.
<pragmaticenigma> makes sense that it isn't a high priority
<lotuspsychje> good morning
<lotuspsychje> jnewt: a few tips to solve bugs faster: actively help your own bug, keep it alive and find new users that are affected
<pragmaticenigma> jnewt, what we are trying to convey to you is not about it being supported. If you have a specific issue with Unity, then please ask for support directly related to your issue. If you are experiencing that particular bug, the reason it is still open is because Canonical isn't developing Unity anymore. Therefor it will likely remain open until someone decides to clean up old tickets.
<ducasse> good morning
<lotuspsychje> we might keep our eyes open for screen issues on 5.3 hwe
<lotuspsychje> few new bugs entered in #ubuntu-bugs-announce
<oerheks> now a fan issue too
<lotuspsychje> bug #1860230
<ubot5> bug 1860230 in xorg (Ubuntu) "Resolution incorrect after updating kernel to 5.3" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860230
<lotuspsychje> bug #1860268
<ubot5> bug 1860268 in linux-signed-hwe (Ubuntu) "window titlebar is disturbed on all non-maximized windows" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860268
<lotuspsychje> bug #1860253
<ubot5> bug 1860253 in linux (Ubuntu) "After kernel upgrade, the screen has got stuck when in running programs on GUI." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860253
<lotuspsychje> thats it
<jeremy31> nvidia dkms drivers likely haven't been patched for 5.3
<lotuspsychje_> good point jeremy31
<lotuspsychje_> the titlebar bug is also on unity, so that could be unity only related perhaps
<jeremy31> There seem to be a lot of bugs against 5.3.0-26
<lotuspsychje_> have a few on 20.04 kernel 5.4 also here jeremy31
<lotuspsychje_> kerneloops, xorg bugs, dock issues,..
<jeremy31> Been seeing wireless issues with out of tree modules
<lotuspsychje_> bug #1860271
<ubot5> bug 1860271 in rtl8812au (Ubuntu) " rtl8812au Wifi driver not working under linux 5.3.0-26" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860271
<jeremy31> I looked at that one, most of those modules should work in 5.3
<lotuspsychje> jeremy31: what do you think of my bug #1854146
<ubot5> bug 1854146 in linux (Ubuntu) "Kernel oops on 5.3.0-18" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1854146
<lotuspsychje> just happened right now on 5.4 too
<jeremy31> I can't access the oops files
<lotuspsychje> jeremy31: http://dpaste.com/3094XBA
<lotuspsychje> http://dpaste.com/213NV7K
<jeremy31> Wonder if it could be caused by virtualbox?
<lotuspsychje> interesting idea
<oerheks> tomreyn, i discussed this bot thingy with sarnold ..
<oerheks> i guess it is not oke, but he seems the only user.
<tomreyn> thanks oerheks, i concur
<lotuspsychje> moar corrupted ati bug #1860282
<ubot5> bug 1860282 in xserver-xorg-video-ati (Ubuntu) "corrupted desktop tooltips" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860282
<tomreyn> "Distro: Linux Mint 19.3 Tricia"
<lotuspsychje> yeah saw its on cinnamon
<lotuspsychje> the other corruption was on unity
<tomreyn> but it can affect ubuntu, too, i guess
<tomreyn> logs are missing, though
<lotuspsychje> bug #1860268
<ubot5> bug 1860268 in linux-signed-hwe (Ubuntu) "window titlebar is disturbed on all non-maximized windows" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860268
<tomreyn> "CurrentDesktop: Unity:Unity7:ubuntu"
<lotuspsychje> yep
<lotuspsychje> i wonder if they would have the same on gnome
<tomreyn> worth a try for sure.
<lotuspsychje> seen alot of ati corruptions on xenial with unity in the past, including my own ex ati x800
<lotuspsychje> cant say ive seen it on gnome
<tomreyn> is linux 5.3 in bionic-hwe known to break nvidia drivers?
<lotuspsychje> ive seen a bug passby holdon tomreyn
<lotuspsychje> another mint one though... bug #1860221
<ubot5> bug 1860221 in linux-meta-hwe (Ubuntu) "5.3.0.26.95 breaks Nvidia dual monitor support in Linux Mint 19.3" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860221
<tomreyn> hmm thanks
<lotuspsychje> and jeremy31 earlier suspected nvidia dkms drivers not patched yet?
<ducasse> is any action taken on mint bugs at all?
<jeremy31> ducasse: I have seen some of them addressed
<lotuspsychje> ducasse: jeremy31 would prob know that
<jeremy31> I know at one time they were flat out ignored
<ducasse> that is what i'd expect to happen, tbh
<lotuspsychje> i asked the kernel guys same question the other day
<lotuspsychje> <apw> lotuspsychje, if they are our actual kernel binaries we are interested in bug found; though we may not be able to tell if it is a 'different userspace' interaction in some cases to be sure
<lotuspsychje> <lotuspsychje> apw: but if ubuntu's kernel suffers a bug, does that mean that mint also suffers that bug?
<tomreyn> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-340/+bugs?orderby=-id&start=0 lists no recent reports (but i'm not even sure that's the "usual" nvidia driver in bionic)
<lotuspsychje> <apw> lotuspsychje_, i could not say for sure; if they have the same kernel likley yes
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn: 340 is for older cards
<tomreyn> oh, what's current?
<lotuspsychje> depends on the card and the ubuntu version
<lotuspsychje> but more newer cards would pull 390 and higher
<jeremy31> What is this linux-modules-nvidia-435-generic-hwe-18.04?
<tomreyn> okay, so there is 340, 390, 430, 435
<lotuspsychje> not sure jeremy31
<lotuspsychje> 19.10 should include the nvidia drivers on the iso now
<tomreyn> those linux-modules-nvidia-* packages have been existing for a while: https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=bionic-updates&section=all&arch=any&keywords=linux-modules-nvidia-+-generic&searchon=names
<tomreyn> actually not that long, only since december
<tomreyn> ah those seem to be secure boot signed modules?
<lotuspsychje> !info linux-modules-nvidia-435-generic-hwe-18.04
<ubot5> Package linux-modules-nvidia-435-generic-hwe-18.04 does not exist in bionic
<tomreyn> i wonder how canonical can safely sign them.
<tomreyn> (or what this attestation actually means)
<jeremy31> lotuspsychje: Can you check your driver manager?  Does the backports-iwlwifi-dkms show there?
<lotuspsychje> jeremy31: hmm it does :p
<jeremy31> lotuspsychje: thanks, then it isn't just Mints version doing that
<lotuspsychje> but its greyed out for me
<lotuspsychje> i can only select, continue with using the manual driver
<jeremy31> There almost has to be some data file that goes along with the driver manager
<lotuspsychje> driver=iwlwifi driverversion=5.4.0-9-generic firmware=46.6bf1df06.0
<lotuspsychje> still im connected on wifi
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn: what is usually do is compare ubuntu's versions with https://launchpad.net/~graphics-drivers/+archive/ubuntu/ppa
<tomreyn> those are the same nvidia branches / versions there.
<lotuspsychje> !info nvidia-driver-435
<ubot5> Package nvidia-driver-435 does not exist in bionic
<tomreyn> but newer package verisons
<tomreyn> https://packages.ubuntu.com/bionic-updates/nvidia-driver-435
<lotuspsychje> Version 435.21-0ubuntu0.18.04.2
<lotuspsychje> yeah
<tomreyn> actually 440 is not in ubuntu proper
<tomreyn> not in bionic anyways
<tomreyn> nor 304, nor 515, nor 418
<tomreyn> nor 304, nor 415, nor 418
<lotuspsychje> not sure wich driver those big RTX pulls by default on ubuntu
<lotuspsychje> would be interesting to see a 19.10 with RTX 2080
<tomreyn> they all use amdgpu, just different firmwares
<lotuspsychje> tomreyn: apt-cache shows nvidia-driver-440 - NVIDIA driver metapackage on 20.04 here
<lotuspsychje> not on bionic?
<lotuspsychje> digikin: geary is cool
<digikin> X)
<lotuspsychje> but 'best' is pretty relative of course
<tomreyn> lotuspsychje: ah i missed you saying nvidia-driver-440 is only available on 20.04 here - too much channel hopping on my part
<lotuspsychje> its sunday, no sweat :p
