#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-17
<hajour> hai erkan:)
<erkan^> hey hajour 
<hajour> i already thought i know your name erkan^ :)
<erkan^> cool that you don't forget my name :p
<erkan^> are you first time here, hajour ?
<hajour> no i already are here longer
<hajour> hehe
<erkan^> ow i didn 't see that you are here first 
<hajour> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/accesibility
<hajour> this team was the reason i came on ubuntu
<hajour> on 30 nov 2010
<hajour> well  i was a couple of days not here on chat
<erkan^> I go see
<hajour> had some problems with my eeepc
<erkan^> I am curious for this URL
<erkan^> for = about
<hajour> hehe ok
<erkan^> eeepc ? what is that?
<hajour> little laptop/notebook
<hajour> 10 inch screen
<hajour> 1gb
<erkan^> that is netbook (-:
<erkan^> i have read your profile
<erkan^> can you sign languag e?
<hajour> ye well its a need solution :( my old pc is dead
<hajour> no it was a advice after research
<hajour> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour
<hajour> this is me
<erkan^> OW OK
<erkan^> oeps
<erkan^> sorry for caps
<erkan^> i go read
<hajour> hehe np
<erkan^> have you one eye blind?
<erkan^> your have a good profile i see hajour 
<hajour> yes i am blind on 1 eye
<hajour> and other is also not very good
<erkan^> have you four children when i understand good?
<hajour> yes
<hajour> and thank you:)
<erkan^> i am deaf and impaired
<erkan^> you're weclome
<hajour> wauw how you work on the pc?
<erkan^> do you know about "Retinitis Pigmentosa (or Syndrome Usher)? I can work normal on the pc
<hajour> i have thinking on a alfabet that works on sound vibration
<hajour> no i never heard from
<hajour> i know because i have a friend wo is deaf
<hajour> that people who cant hear
<erkan^> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndroom_van_Usher
<hajour> they can feel sound
<erkan^> yes i can feel sound too
<hajour> so i thought on a serial tones from sounds what have different vibration for to use for a vibration alfabet
<hajour> send true a kind of headset
<erkan^> ok, but I don't know very much about sounds
<hajour> well i know someone who knows from sounds
<hajour> but for to make it only someone who i deaf can test and help to make something like that
<erkan^> brrrr i don't like loverboy, hajour :S
<hajour> same here
<hajour> if i notice he is 1 he will know who i am
<erkan^> ow
<hajour> enough say in here
<hajour> i sure know ubuntu thinks also about such people
<erkan^> nobody is safe )-:
<hajour> we got ubuntu
<hajour> dont worry erkan^  i keep a eye on that guy from no on
<hajour> if you want you may open a pm with me and then ping me when you dont feel safe.then i come right away
<hajour> erkan^, ^^
<erkan^> i was picked a coffee
<hajour> :)
<bryan886> hello?
<bryan886> i have a question if anyones up for it?
<charlie-tca> !ask
<ubot2> Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<bryan886> yeah it just seemed quiet, anyways i was wondering if there's a way to turn off the language bar(?) it's a floating little toolbar with a keyboard symbol and displays the input method being used
<charlie-tca> I have not seen it
<charlie-tca> There is no Quit in the corner
<bryan886> i think it's because i have japanese installed as an input method
<charlie-tca> I don't get that with korean and english
<charlie-tca> what application is open?
<bryan886> no quit it looks like a floating toolbar like in windows with a handle to drag it around the options if you right click on the icon are the two input methods and turn off input method
<bryan886> right now i have irc, firefox on thats it
<charlie-tca> So, maybe it one of those creating it, and when you close the application, it will go away, too
<bryan886> ok cool i just got it.
<bryan886> its part of iBus 
<bryan886> and called language panel
<bryan886> kinda answered my own question but for future reference i guess. thanks guys
<charlie-tca> You are welcome
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-19
<erkan^> hajour, ken je http://www.tactileview.com/ ?
<erkan^> This programma I want make a pictogram for deafblindness boy, but that doesn't support under Linux. do you know another program ?
<AlanBell> meeting this evening isn't it?
<Pendulum> AlanBell: yes
<erkan^> hello AlanBell and Pendulum 
<Pendulum> hi erkan^ 
<Pendulum> I don't know any software for linux that does what tactile view does, but I may not be searching for the correct things. (Also, that website is incredibly confusing for finding the information you need to know anything about it)
<Pendulum> erkan^: not the same, but similar http://odt2braille.sourceforge.net/
<erkan^> i go see
<erkan^> i know that, but i search a pictogram (or self drawing), when i have drawing, than i go this make by the swellpaper. do you know a swellpaper, Pendulum ?
<Pendulum> okay
<erkan^> http://www.google.com/images?hl=nl&q=swellpaper&rlz=1B7GGLL_nlTR415&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1366&bih=511
<Pendulum> erkan^: yeah, I'm not sure if there's something exactly like textileview for linux
<Pendulum> erkan^: I'd suggest asking on a couple e-mail lists if anyone knows anything
<erkan^> that is good, thank you 
<Pendulum> ubuntu-accessibility@lists.ubuntu.com
<Pendulum> gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org
<Pendulum> and leet me see if I can find a good list for blind or deaf/blind linux stuff
<erkan^> ok
<erkan^> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-accessibility-list 
<erkan^> i go register that too
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> jono: are we on for our call tomorrow since we've somehow managed to miss so many?
<jono> Pendulum, sure
<Pendulum> jono: 2:30 PST, right?
<jono> Pendulum, I am always available :-)
<jono> yep :-)
<Pendulum> awesome :)
<hajour> hai all sorry for being so late but i was to the checker final contest from my youngest daughter
<hajour> Pendulum,  i am busy with to set up a other program what is related on the speechcontrol program
<Pendulum> Pendulum: oh?
<Pendulum> bah
<Pendulum> hajour: oh?
<hajour> but i will not go lead i  want tenach will go lead it
<hajour> lol
<hajour> sound vibration alphabet program for deaf
<Pendulum> cool
<hajour> it will make possible that deaf people also can use the speechcontrol program
<Pendulum> *nods*
<hajour> so give commands from distance
<hajour> i am already talking with others i have asked 3 people who are deaf and they where very interested to
<Pendulum> hajour: can I make a suggestion that you get the core bits working before you plan everything else? Having large ideas for things you want to get done is great, but focus on the first things first
<hajour> its not starting yet
<hajour> but busy to make the base plan
<hajour> and ask we are interested who want to work on it in a few months
<hajour> over a few months 
<hajour> bah had first the wrong words
<Pendulum> I knew that you meant. I love your enthusiasm, I just don't want you to take on more than you can do and have it take longer than you expect and then get discouraged
<hajour> i thought this time better to do it different the beginning then i did by speechcontrol
<hajour> no no worry.speechcontrol first  need to be on end from being ready
<Pendulum> okay :)
<hajour> without that the vibration program can do almost nothing
<Pendulum> right
<hajour> just wanted to know what you think about the idea
<Pendulum> I think it's complicated
<erkan^> hey hajour (-:
<hajour> well they have say that to about speechcontrol :D
<hajour> hai erkan^  :)
<Pendulum> I don't know of any software open source or proprietary that would be able to understand the sort of accent most deaf people I know (who have been deaf from birth)
<Pendulum> have
<Pendulum> heck, proprietary voice recognition software generally can't understand my slur when I get tired
<Pendulum> and it's pretty mild
<hajour> well ttought to first let drop this program here on ubuntu and on schools for deaf
<erkan^> brb
<hajour> when its working
<hajour> well thats wher we working on to Pendulum  with the speechprogram
<Pendulum> I mostly think it's all (speechcontrol and then the vibration program) going to take quite a long time to get really working
<hajour> mm no you will see tomorrow in the meeting
<Pendulum> tomorrow or Friday?
<hajour> oops
<hajour> 21
<Pendulum> okay, just double checking
<hajour> sorry had looked wrong
<hajour> i got today a meeting tomorrow and day after
<Pendulum> although I'm not 100% sure I'll be able to make that meeting (i've had something come up that if I'm healthy enough to do, is important for me to go to)
<MichelleQ> hi all.  :-)
<Pendulum> hajour: there's an ubuntu accessibility meeting today
<Pendulum> MichelleQ: hiya
<hajour> well there is always the meeting logs Pendulum 
<hajour> yes i know
<Pendulum> yep
<Pendulum> okay
<hajour> thats the 1from today
<Pendulum> just wanted to make sure you were aware :)
<hajour> hai MichelleQ :)
<hajour> i use tomboy know
<hajour> all meetings on and to do
<hajour> busy wek this week with meetings
<hajour> wek = week
<hajour> i was sick yesterday still a little
<hajour> i had get medicine but have get bad reaction on it
<hajour> allergic
<erkan^> ojee
<hajour> i was 2 hours past out
<erkan^> )-:
<hajour> and after that i was talking like a drunk
<hajour> i know Pendulum :) and thank you for that
<hajour> but i am fine now again its not something really bad
<hajour> so no worry
<hajour> you don't come rid of me so easy XD
<Pendulum> hajour: glad you're feeling better
<hajour> i will stay nagging lol
<hajour> yes thank you Pendulum .hope its going a bit with you know
<hajour> now i mean
<hajour> only my writhing is still a bit fuzzy
<hajour> so if i have to say something in the meeting plz have a bit patient with me its not so fast on the moment.often first need to making improvements before i can enter
<erkan^> I go eat Turkish pizza  laterss (-:
<hajour> later erkan^ 
<Pendulum> hajour: no problem. if we're going too fast for you, just let us know or put in a place holder saying "I have something to say"
<hajour> place holder?
<Pendulum> just say something so we know you're typing a response
<hajour> ok:)
<Pendulum> sometimes our meetings go quite fast with lots of people typing quickly so that'll hopefully get us to slow down a little if you're trying to get an opinion in
<hajour> ok:)
<hajour> o Pendulum  i not want 2 busy programs at the same time.i am learning also here to improve my English with classes and also class from python programming and math
<MichelleQ> hajour: if you need any help with your English, let me know.  :-)  I'll be happy to help you.
<hajour> i don't want to do it 50 % only if i can give 100% there by there are more people here who can lead a program and to have chance
<hajour> ok thank you MichelleQ :)
<Pendulum> hajour: I understand that. It's why I cut back my Ubuntu involvement to be pretty much just the accessibility team when I used to do about 10 other things as well.
<hajour> i am busy to make essay for English class I want to try it to have finish Sunday
<Pendulum> hajour: I'm also happy to help with English stuff :)
<Pendulum> I think MichelleQ and I are the two resident English majors around ;-)
<MichelleQ> yep!
<hajour> great because i really want to go back to school 1 day .But I think it will be at least over  6 years.
<hajour> because it cost a real lot of money
<Pendulum> *nods*
 * proudhawk is finally awake
<hajour> so I try so much to learn I can 
<Pendulum> hajour: you will do that and I will slowly plug along at trying to learn Dutch and you will still graduate from school before I reasonably know Dutch ;-)
<hajour> hai proudhawk :)
<erkan^> I want learn English language
<erkan^> :p
<Pendulum> erkan^: your English is already far better than any other language I "speak"
<proudhawk> so? this is an interesting way to have a conversation.
<Pendulum> hi proudhawk :)
<proudhawk> :)
<erkan^> ow really?
<hajour> I had a offer from university to come learn for master classes
<hajour> but have turned it down
<Pendulum> gah, I just went on livemocha to review the Dutch I started to learn and they've changed all their lesson plans so I have to start all over again :-/
<MichelleQ> ha, I attempted to learn Spanish.  It was a disaster.
<Pendulum> I really want Rosetta Stone for Dutch, but it's too expensive :(
<Pendulum> I have to say this Live Mocha is better than it was 18 months ago
<Pendulum> just harder
<proudhawk> spanish is easy. now chinese, thats hard
<Pendulum> and I really wish I had a way to get feedback on pronunciation
<hajour> it was a offer for Organization Development 
<hajour> well i can learn it to you Pendulum  dutch i mean
<Pendulum> hajour: I appreciate that. thanks :)
<hajour> i really was shocked i saw the cost of that almost 12000 euro
<Pendulum> hajour: I know. It's ridiculously expensive, but everyone I know who has tried it found it really amazingly good to use (and it is cheaper than a course).
<Pendulum> LiveMocha is similar, excpet it's a website and free :)
<Pendulum> and much more open as courses are written by people who use the site
<hajour> if you have again a bit looked in hyour books and you think you will begin just let me know Pendulum 
<hajour> without the h
<Pendulum> hajour: what I think I will really need is in a few weeks as I get farther along and a little more confident is if you'd be willing to chat on skype or something and just listen to me be boring and correct pronunciation :)
<Pendulum> and don't be afraid to bug me about it because I am really shy about languages I'm learning and hate to speak with native speakers because I know I'll get it wrong
<proudhawk> instead of listening, you 2 should just have a conversation. you'll learn faster that way
<Pendulum> proudhawk: I have to get to the point where I know enough to have a conversation ;-)
<hajour> lol i don't find you boring Pendulum :)
<Pendulum> hajour: I meant I'm likely to want you to listen to me repeat randome words and phrases and correct my pronunciation
<Pendulum> learning the words is easy, saying them is hard
<hajour> hehe you don't want to hear  me talking English
<proudhawk> so? its takes just a little learning and hearing the words to start getting conversational. hell, I've been out of the german language for 25 years and I am picking it back up on account of my tandem partner
<hajour> my English speaking is been called stone coal mine English XD so be prepared
<hajour> I have a real Amsterdam accent what not sound very nice when i speak English
<Pendulum> hajour: I've been to Amsterdam so I know what the accent sounds like when speaking English. I don't find it bad
<hajour> hehe you no Amsterdams jordaan accent?
<hajour> o had not see the line from proudhawk .rude from me not to answer
<hajour> Pendulum,  your name and from proudhawk have the same colour.
<Pendulum> hajour: vaguely. I've mostly spent my time in the center of the city, but I've walked through Jordaan. Last time I was there (2 years ago :( ) my friends and I rented a house/appartment on Singel 
<hajour> a ok
<Pendulum> my father actually always stays in the Jordaan when he's in Amsterdam, though
<Pendulum> (we were at the corner of Singel either Huidenstraat or Wolvenstraat, though, when my friends and I rented the place)
<Pendulum> *Singel and
<hajour> you know its very expensive there. if you just rent a home 5 km further the price already go way down from rent
<erkan^> have i understad good that evenig is here a meeting? I see just to topic? :S
<hajour> yes erkan^ 
<hajour> for us is the time 22:00 then the meeting start
<Pendulum> yeah, we were there for a specific event and I didn't pick the place, but it was convenient for where we were spending msot of our time. Also, I'm still a little nervous about getting around Amsterdam with my wheelchair
<erkan^> who are a present? 
<hajour> erkan^,  ^^
<Pendulum> erkan^: anyone who wants to be at the meeting can be there :)
<erkan^> ok
<Pendulum> we have open meetings :)
<hajour> Pendulum, i was in a wheelchair 7 months when i lived in amsterdam
<erkan^> what is a subject for a meeting? :p
<hajour> i almost not been outside in that time
<Pendulum> erkan^: plan is to get status updates on things we've been working on, I'm hoping hajour will give a brief intro to speech control for those who don't know anything about it and then anything else people want to bring up
<hajour> bad side walks with holes in it
<erkan^> ok
 * Pendulum fixes the agenda page
<hajour> ok pendulum
<hajour> i need to go cooking and spend some time with the kids.then prepare on the meeting.i hope jacky will come to then
<hajour> he knows more the technical side (program things)
<erkan^> eet smakelijk (-:
<erkan^> = bon appetit
<hajour> thank you erkan^  and you to erkan^  enjoy your Turkish pizza :)
<erkan^> (-: 
<hajour> till later all
<Pendulum> hajour: have fun with the kids :)
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: I wont make it to the meeting tonight ... I have been awake since 5am and a meeting at 22.00 is too late for me
<erkan^> which countrie is 07:00 UTC ?
<erkan^> "Coordinated Universal Time (abbreviated UTC)[1]| is the time standard by which the world regulates clocks and time." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC :P
<UndiFineD> ok 4.00 am utc - 21.00 pm utc I am up and awake, 21.00 utc is too late for me to start a meeting
<erkan^> wow very net*split :P
<JackyAlcine> an half hour.
<charlie-tca> much harder to discuss things with these netsplits
<Pendulum> hopefully they'll have calmed down by the time the meeting starts :)
<JackyAlcine> :D
<erkan^> where are you from?
<JackyAlcine> Me?
<JackyAlcine> ^^ erkan^
<erkan^> i don't matter
<erkan^> because i don't know what is time for #ubuntu-accessibility
<charlie-tca> erkan^: it is now 20:49 UTC, the meeting here is in 11 minutes
<erkan^> ok
<erkan^> thank you
<Pendulum> erkan^: UTC is currently the same as the time in the UK
<erkan^> yes
<erkan^> Here is 21:53
<erkan^> (-:
<Pendulum> I think I've been following jono on twitter too long. I've started picking up some of his tone in my tweets...
<erkan^> wow (-:
<MichelleQ> am i late?
<Pendulum> nope :)
<Pendulum> you're early even
<AlanBell> hi MichelleQ 
<MichelleQ> oh, good!
<MichelleQ> it's been an ... erm... interesting afternoon
<hajour> o/ waving
<Pendulum> btw, if anyone on twitter wants to RT: https://twitter.com/colona13/status/27831123534938112
<AlanBell> rock on Pendulum 
<JackyAlcine> Three minutes. :D
<Pendulum> AlanBell: :P
<erkan^> are you from USA, Pendulum  ?
<Pendulum> erkan^: yes
<erkan^> nice 
 * erkan^ is from the Netherland
<MichelleQ> Pendulum: RT done.  :-)
<erkan^> I am staying in Turkey by family now
<erkan^> (-:
<Pendulum> MichelleQ: I didn't know you were on twitter!
<MichelleQ> yep
<MichelleQ> qandamama
<JackyAlcine> So. it's 21:00.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: are you around?
<Pendulum> yep
<TheMuso> Yep
<Pendulum> great!
<Pendulum> let's begin
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 19 21:01:03 2011 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell.
<meetingology> Useful Commands: #topic #action #link #idea #voters #vote #chair #action #agreed #help #info #endmeeting.
<AlanBell> o/
 * charlie-tca seems to be here
<TheMuso> Good timing too, just finished breakfast. :)
<Pendulum> can everyone else who is here just give a handraise or something :)
<JackyAlcine> o/
<Pendulum> okay agenda can be found at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<Pendulum> I'm sorry we've not had a meeting in over 2 months, I was ill and just didn't get around to getting one organised.
<Pendulum> first item
<Pendulum> #topic Status Update on Personas
<meetingology> TOPIC: Status Update on Personas
<Pendulum> I know AlanBell has been working on personas and that hajour and others have helped
<AlanBell> yup
<Pendulum> AlanBell: what's the current plan of attack?
<AlanBell> ok, so faisal is pretty much done
<AlanBell> needs to be released to the world
<AlanBell> I was going to put it in a blog post with an explaination of the whole project
<AlanBell> and also do a glossy PDF of it to match the Canonical ones
<AlanBell> I had a go at that in inkscape, but I am not sure it is the right tool for the job
<AlanBell> then we will go through the other personas and bring them up to the same standards
<Pendulum> AlanBell: maybe e-mail Charline for suggestions on what they've used for the official design team personas software-wise?
<AlanBell> good idea
<AlanBell> although I have a fear that it will be something proprietary
<Pendulum> the other person who might have an idea is doctormo
<Pendulum> or he might know how to make inkscape do it
<AlanBell> really good idea
<Pendulum> AlanBell: can I give it to you as an action item?
<AlanBell> yes
<Pendulum> #action AlanBell to contact Charline and/or doctormo about software for doing the finished design of personas
<meetingology> ACTION: AlanBell to contact Charline and/or doctormo about software for doing the finished design of personas
<Pendulum> is there anything else personas related that needs to be discussed?
<AlanBell> not from me
<Pendulum> anyoen else?
<MichelleQ> nope
<Pendulum> great
<Pendulum> next item
<Pendulum> #topic Development Status Update
<meetingology> TOPIC: Development Status Update
<TheMuso> Ok development can be summed up in a few points:
<TheMuso> * api from egalia is helping with unity atk work at the low level.
<TheMuso> Rodrigo from Canonical is helping with unity panel a11y work.
<TheMuso> My focus is the platform experience as a whole, focusing on people who use screen readers and magnificatino, but where possible, advising for other disabilities as well. Be sure I'll be asking here if there are questions I cannot answer for such disability groups.
<TheMuso> Unity itself has low level atk work partially complete. SOme work is still ongoing with unity and the nux toolkit to retrieve needed information about some nux widgts via unity. Focusing of launcher icons et al is also in progress.
<TheMuso> Keyboard navigation is being worked on by someone in DX, and should be finished shortly.
<Pendulum> great :)
<MichelleQ> sounds like good progress
<Pendulum> TheMuso: are they just using onboard for now as the onscreen keyboard (I got confused when there was a UDS session about on screen keyboards, but no decision)
<TheMuso> I need to have a look at the launcher this next week and from the work thats done so far, try and make a design proposal as to how accessibility behavior should happen. Not too sure about thsi myself actually, just got an email about that this morning.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: onboard is staying where it is for now.
<Pendulum> let us know if there's anything anyone here can do to help!
<TheMuso> As to other things I am looking at, there is improving indicator accessibility which is currently in progress, as well as improving the entire desktop a11y experience where possible.
<TheMuso> This means that I am looking at getting the latest evince in for PDF accessibility, and I am working closely with the orca folk to make sure webkit support is in tip top shape.
<MichelleQ> I'm ready for testing, whenever it gets to that point.  :-) 
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Will do, but I think things are well in hand atm.
<Pendulum> great :)
<TheMuso> Right, hoefully we will have something that more users can test in the coming weeks.
<TheMuso> The code is still fresh and somewhat unstable though I believe, haven't tried it myself yet, but I will be looking at that today.
<MichelleQ> just holler when you're ready.  :-)  
<TheMuso> Will do, don't worry.
<TheMuso> It will likely be announced once a new release with the accessibility bits is made into natty proper.
 * Pendulum suspects that there will be proclomations from the rooftops when we can start testing ;-)
<TheMuso> Yup.
<MichelleQ> :-D  
<TheMuso> Thats all from me.
<Pendulum> great
<Pendulum> #topic Ubuntu Accessibility Team Blog
<meetingology> TOPIC: Ubuntu Accessibility Team Blog
<Pendulum> we now have a blog at http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/
<Pendulum> it has nothing on it
<MichelleQ> Pendulum: awesome!
<Pendulum> We're on wordpress so that it's easy for me to add people who can work on it
<MichelleQ> well, not that it's empty, but you know
<Pendulum> I'm going to try to get it added to planet and an intro post up this week
<MichelleQ> let me know if you want help keeping it up
<Pendulum> after that, I'd love it if we could get a blog post a week on it
<Pendulum> so if we could schedule people to be in charge of a week between now and our next meeting (which should be February 16th), that would be great
<Pendulum> I know I've got this week
<Pendulum> I think AlanBell has already started writing something on personas for next week
<AlanBell> yes
<MichelleQ> I'll take the next, if you can give me some guidance on topic
<Pendulum> #action Pendulum to write intro blog post
<meetingology> ACTION: Pendulum to write intro blog post
<Pendulum> #action AlanBell to write personas blog post for week of Jan 26, 2011
<meetingology> ACTION: AlanBell to write personas blog post for week of Jan 26, 2011
<Pendulum> MichelleQ: if you take that week, we can figure out later what you'll write on, does that work?
<MichelleQ> yup
<MichelleQ> :D
<Pendulum> #action MichelleQ to write blog post for week of Feb 2, 2011
<meetingology> ACTION: MichelleQ to write blog post for week of Feb 2, 2011
<MichelleQ> Oh, I know... I can do something about the necessity of accessibility, if you'd like
<Pendulum> okay, we've got 2 more weeks to fill
<Pendulum> MichelleQ: sounds great
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: would you like to do something on testing for one of those weeks?
<charlie-tca> Okay, I can try to
<charlie-tca> I am the worst there is at blogs
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I'm happy to look over anything before it gets posted
<charlie-tca> I update mine regularly, every couple of years when I re-write the website
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: so can you do the week of feb 9th?
<charlie-tca> okay
<Pendulum> #action charlie-tca to write blog post on testing for week of Feb 9, 2011
<meetingology> ACTION: charlie-tca to write blog post on testing for week of Feb 9, 2011
<Pendulum> okay, one more week. Who else is interested in writing a post?
<MichelleQ> charlie-tca: I'll help ya, too
<Pendulum> Also, I'm happy to look at posts for people before they go up for things like spelling and grammar ;-)
<Pendulum> So don't be shy if you're not a native English speaker
<TheMuso> I should probably do one week, to talk about indicators, and how they are better than systray icons accessibility wise.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: so can you take the week of Feb 16? I think that puts it after alpha2
<TheMuso> Particularly since I have a few plans regarding indicators, orca, and retrieving information from them.
<TheMuso> Yep should be able to do that.
<Pendulum> #action TheMuso to write a blog post on indicators for week of Feb 16, 2011
<meetingology> ACTION: TheMuso to write a blog post on indicators for week of Feb 16, 2011
<Pendulum> great, so that puts us up until the next meeting :)
<Pendulum> Anyone else who is interested in writing for the blog at any point just let me or AlanBell know as we currently can either add people so they can do their own posts directly in or can post for you
<MichelleQ> sounds perfect.  :-)
<Pendulum> Is there anything else blog related that anyone wants to bring up?
<Pendulum> Okay, moving on
<JackyAlcine> Pendulum: I'd like to post a bimonthly post about SpeechControl
<JackyAlcine> >_<
<JackyAlcine> It's okay.
<Pendulum> JackyAlcine: okay, talk to AlanBell or me after the meeting and maybe we can iron out a schedule or something :)
<JackyAlcine> Alright.
<Pendulum> #topic Status on Testing, Bugs, and Prep for Testing
<meetingology> TOPIC: Status on Testing, Bugs, and Prep for Testing
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: what's the status on having things sorted so that when we can start testing, there are some directions out there
<charlie-tca> testing is waiting on development, of course
<charlie-tca> It is hard to put the tests together, until we have the layouts down. 
<Pendulum> okay
<charlie-tca> We need to know the shortcuts still, and we need images that work
<charlie-tca> today Ubuntu installed for the first time in a week
<Pendulum> other than waiting for development, is there any way that anybody else can help you either now or once the development is done to get the tests together?
<charlie-tca> Once we have things down, we will need people to verify the procedures, yes.
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: do you want to get people to commit to helping now, or is it easier for you to just see who is availible at that point?
<charlie-tca> Until then, it is pretty much stumbling along for a while
<charlie-tca> Let's see who is available then. It works better that way
<Pendulum> great
<Pendulum> anything else about bugs or testing?
<charlie-tca> bugs are looking good now
<Pendulum> :D
<charlie-tca> that's all, unless some one has questions?
<Pendulum> calm before teh storm?
<charlie-tca> yup
<Pendulum> if no one has anything else, we can move on...
 * charlie-tca did lock up natty after installing orca
<erkan^> i have a question
<Pendulum> erkan^: yes?
<erkan^> what about testing? becuase i never have heard about this
<charlie-tca> We are committed to getting Natty tested with screenreader during the milestone ISO testing by QA
<Pendulum> erkan^: once the new accessibility framework is in (or partially in) to Unity/Natty we're going to have to test to make sure it works and get as many bugs fixed as possible before the final Natty release
<charlie-tca> We also are trying to make sure you can install it with the screenreader.
<erkan^> that's clear. I understand
<Pendulum> you probably haven't heard much about it because we're in a holding pattern waiting for the accessibility features to make it into the Natty development version
<Pendulum> er.. the public Natty development version
<Pendulum> until then we can't really do much to test
<Pendulum> anything else?
<charlie-tca> not here
<Pendulum> ok
<Pendulum> #topic Brief Intro to SpeechControl
<meetingology> TOPIC: Brief Intro to SpeechControl
<hajour> hai all i am hajour .to see who i am .its easier to look on my wiki .because i am not a very fast typer.so here is the link. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour.i came here because of the accessibility program to see or i could help..first i had made a list from issues and possible solutions.where i have made a sub page from by my wiki  .https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/accesibility
<hajour> then i saw all kind of troubles with speech programs and thought this must can different.
<hajour> and 2010-12-11 i started the project speechcontrol. and started to to pull devs ,program makers from speechprograms and more devs . we also have students in the team.together it is become a wonderful dedicated team .where i am proud up to have the honor to may lead them . https://launchpad.net/~speechcontrolteam  
<hajour> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechControl.
<hajour> i give the word to JackyAlacine now who is the head development from the team.
<hajour> sorry if it is to long 
<Pendulum> hajour: that's not too long at all 
<JackyAlcine> When everyone's done reading, just "o/" so I can go. :D
<MichelleQ> o/
<Pendulum> o/
<JackyAlcine> Hey, I'm Jacky and I'm part of SpeechControl.
<AlanBell> o/
<JackyAlcine> SpeechControl is the brainchild of and is led solely by Manuela Popping. I'm acting coordinator of development, and it's my duty to ensure that Manuela's ideas can be executed to code.
<JackyAlcine> So far, we've been working to get a Java-based speech synthesis engine named openMary (http://mary.dfki.de) to be used via C++ and Python by implementing libraries.  
<charlie-tca> o/
<JackyAlcine> However, with a bit more analysis, we've noticed that instead of creating libraries; creating a fork of openMary that's catered to all Ubuntu distros. It can be tailored to incorporate D-Bus and PulseAudio, so that it can be used more universally, but that's a later project and will be attended to when the library hit a mature stage.
<TheMuso> Why not use espeak?
<AlanBell> is that getting openMary to be an espeak back end?
<JackyAlcine> TheMuso: openMary professes a feature called emoSpeak.
<JackyAlcine> And from reports, the voices in espeak are too "robotic".
<hajour> we have try to  reach you TheMuso with emails and here to
<TheMuso> For the record, I don't like human sounding speech synths. They are not as efficient at fast speeds.
<JackyAlcine> TheMuso: That's where Sonic comes in.
<TheMuso> And, they take more space on disks etc, so it will be harder to get into Ubuntu, if things should progress that far.
<hajour> mm i think it would be nice if JackyAlcine  could finish
<JackyAlcine> Sonic's another project by Bill Cox that efficiently speeds up and normalizes voices. More information about it @ http://www.vinux.com/sonic
<JackyAlcine> He's working with us to enhance eSpeak and other libraries with this issue.
<TheMuso> Yeah heard about it, I personally prefer the synth to dio it natively in its code, but if it proves a better method, then I guess thats the way to go.
<JackyAlcine> TheMuso: That's another option that's been considered, but it seems better to push that for a later release of the libraries.
<JackyAlcine> We also have plans to integrate the openMary engine to SpeechDispatcher and perhaps (a big hope) implement a simple GUI that allows users to select the standard speech synthesis engine and have its own configuration pages (defined by .glade files) and also have it all easily accessible via the such using the selected engines to dictate each label.
<TheMuso> Fair enough.
<TheMuso> JackyAlcine: Hey I have an idea similar to that, but more modular, to allow for multiple front-ends.
<TheMuso> The idea I had was to have the GUI controlling speech-dispatcher.
<TheMuso> Oh and glade is being deprecated long term I think.
<TheMuso> Perhaps we should have this discussion outside the meeting.
<JackyAlcine> TheMuso: sure, feel free to visit our channel. #ubuntu-speechcontrol
<TheMuso> But its goot to hear more about the speech control project. I hope to try and help you guys along at some point, but that won't be in natty's timeframe I'm affraid.
<TheMuso> Will do so after this meeting.
<JackyAlcine> That's understable.
<JackyAlcine> *understandable.
<JackyAlcine> SpeechControl also wants to integrate another component into the Linux Speech API, voice recognition. It's pretty interesting that the Linux Speech API doesn't have such a feature. Luckily, a potential application has come up to the role. It's name is Julius.
<TheMuso> There are many speech recognition engines out there...
<TheMuso> Why this one over the rest?
<TheMuso> ...sorry shoudl ask that in the relevant place and time. :)
<JackyAlcine> Lol, no problem, the curiousity's great.
<JackyAlcine> Although the version available from the site isn't, how can I put, suitably efficient for Linux, we've spoken with the project manager of Simon Listens, the KDE application, who has implemented a specialized version of Julius for his application. We're currently collaborating on packaging this version to replace the version available in the repositories. So, yes, SpeechControl's been on its own, scratching its way up, pulling the holes in 
<TheMuso> ok cool.
<AlanBell> simon-listens is really cool actually
<AlanBell> it is QT based which is interesting given Mark's recent blog post
<AlanBell> mostly when running it doesn't need much gui at all
<hajour> well if i new this.i already hat put it this way to get your attention TheMuso .you are really hard to reach. lol
<TheMuso> Yeah mainly because I am busy.
<TheMuso> Anyway, thanks for the great introduction guys, I am interested in helping out where I can.
<Pendulum> okay, are there any other questions regarding SpeechControl? (preferably quick and easy ones)
<TheMuso> Ideally I'd love to work on a11y full time for Ubuntu, but that won't be the case.
<hajour> if you want you can sign in in the speechcontrol team TheMuso  :)
 * hajour is hoping he do it
<TheMuso> If you mean on launchpad, then I'll certainly have a look and join.
<hajour> great 
<JackyAlcine> https://www.launchpad.net/~speechcontrolteam
 * hajour cheers
<TheMuso> Ok I think we can move onto AOB.
<Pendulum> great
<Pendulum> #topic Any Other Business
<meetingology> TOPIC: Any Other Business
<TheMuso> So, Mark's blog post.
<Pendulum> are there any other things anyone has to discuss?
<TheMuso> QT apps in Ubuntu.
<hajour> the mean goal is that it stays open source and usable for old pc s to
<JackyAlcine> Yeah, what's up with that?
<TheMuso> We need to follow the progress of this decision, and make sure the a11y angle is completely covered.
<AlanBell> and Mark specifically mentioned accessibility requirements
<TheMuso> Mind you, it does depend on what QT apps are desired.
<JackyAlcine> I mean, we already had to deal with Unity being standard.
<TheMuso> anNot all.
<Pendulum> AlanBell: yeah, I noticed that he listed it up there and then ignored it later
<TheMuso> AlanBell: not all
<TheMuso> No VI mentons
<TheMuso> mentions
<Pendulum> yeah
<AlanBell> indeed
<AlanBell> it was keyboard and mouse mentions, not VI
<TheMuso> Yep
<hajour> lost it now a bit ?!?
<TheMuso> VI stands for vision impairement.
<hajour> first meeting here
<AlanBell> VI=Visual Impairment
<hajour> a ok
<AlanBell> so QT apps are not readable by Orca etc
<AlanBell> like webkit
<TheMuso> a
<TheMuso> Actually webkit is almost 100% usable.
<TheMuso> In natty, one can install the epiphany browser, and navigate simple sites with no issue.
<TheMuso> I did this myself last week.
<AlanBell> cool
<AlanBell> does the installer work now?
<TheMuso> Haven't tried it yet.
<TheMuso> But joanie has offered to help me get that fied up, whcih is cool.
<TheMuso> fixed
<charlie-tca> AlanBell: the live cd installed today
<TheMuso> gah typing sucks this morning...
<TheMuso> So all we can do, is follow this through, and make sure the a11y angles are all covered.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: adding to the many reasons we like joanie? ;-)
<TheMuso> I can understand this from a commercial/market share standpoint, but its a bit hard to see this decision made for the next cycle after canonical invested in getting unity accessible.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: heh yeah.
<Pendulum> yeah
<TheMuso> ...unless they decide to do the same for QT, which I somehow doubt.
<Pendulum> and put pressure on Mark/Canonical about it, correct?
<TheMuso> Yeah, harder for me to do so since I am an employee though...
 * Pendulum sees a future possible blog post to come out of this...
<TheMuso> And lots of people know what interests me in the company so...
<Pendulum> TheMuso: I wasn't saying from you :)
<TheMuso> Agreed.
<TheMuso> Yeah I know.
<TheMuso> Just making sure everyone else does.
<TheMuso> So, I think thats all from me about this for now.
<Pendulum> okay
<Pendulum> anything else?
<hajour> only i want to say 1last thing speechcontrol must stay open source.i cant say it often enough
<hajour> o and i am willing to make a blog to with help
<TheMuso> Nothing else from me.
<hajour> could not say it earlier.i had already copied my lines about speechcontrol from note
<hajour> for to put in chat
<Pendulum> okay
<Pendulum> does anyone else have anything?
<hajour> and is it already note that the video s
<hajour> for to help with the keey often not work at al
<hajour> keey=key
<hajour> coc key
<AlanBell> lets talk about that afterwards hajour 
<Pendulum> okay. I think we're done
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 19 22:14:18 2011 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell . (v 0.1.4)
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-01-19-21.01.moin.txt
<MichelleQ> bravo!
<AlanBell> thanks Pendulum
 * JackyAlcine exhales.
<JackyAlcine> :D
<JackyAlcine> Good stuff, Pendulum
<hajour> well there was asked about bugs could not answer earlier
<charlie-tca> thanks, Pendulum. Glad you are so helpful!
<AlanBell> hajour: got a link to the video you are concerned about?
<hajour> thanks for lead the meeting Pendulum great done
<MichelleQ> I have a random Qimo-related question, if y'all don't mind.
<AlanBell> sure MichelleQ
<Pendulum> !ask | MichelleQ 
<ubot2> MichelleQ: Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-)
<hajour> looking up the link sec AlanBell 
<MichelleQ1> sorry, random cable glitch
<MichelleQ1> any suggestions on a relatively-child-friendly screen reader?
<AlanBell> so a friendly sounding voice (OpenMary probably has a friendliness slider)
<AlanBell> and the main thing is getting it to not read out assorted incomprehensible crap on the screen
<MichelleQ1> yeah... and making it work with as much as we can - considering Qimo focuses on elementary-gaming.
<MichelleQ1> we may not be able to use it a lot, considering, but we'd at least like to have something included
<hajour> AlanBell, http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/
<hajour> the video do not work by some pc s it seams. also not by me but well i already had signed i had help from UndiFineD 
<hajour> also if you download the image stay black and no sound
<AlanBell> hajour: yeah, that page is not happy on my browser with all those videos
<hajour> just was wondering if others already new it.
<AlanBell> works on firefox now
<erkan^> (-:
<hajour> i got chromium
<hajour> i go try it
<AlanBell> it works OK for me, bit of background noise, german(probably) accent but quite clear
<hajour> both's video s not working 
<hajour> i get not 1 language
<hajour> get=got
<erkan^> Pendulum: http://mootbot.libertus.co.uk/ubuntu-accessibility/2011/ubuntu-accessibility.2011-01-19-21.01.log.html doesn't work
<Pendulum> okay, I'll change that since the minutes are all up on the wiki anyway
<Pendulum> s/minutes/logs
<erkan^> ok (-:
<JanC> I think there are issues with streaming inside Firefox, especially if it doesn't get enough data in time
<JanC> in firefox 3.6, it seems to be a lot better in 4
<Pendulum> JanC: firefox is where it's working. chromium is where the problem is
<JanC> I've had problems with firefox too on that site
<Pendulum> ah
<JanC> although it seems to work now...
<hajour> not with chromium
<JanC> see, had it again with firefox: suddenly it stops playing
<hajour> sorry that was very short
<hajour> well you get sound
<hajour> i only black squares
<JanC> works in Chromium here, except all videos try to download/start at the same time  ;)
<JanC> and I didn't wait if it has the same "freeze" behaviour
<JanC> hajour: what chromium packages do you have installed?
<hajour> Extra ffmpeg codecs for the Chromium Browser
<hajour> Adobe Flash Player plugin installer
<hajour> Commonly used restricted packages for Lubuntu
<JanC> I also have chromium-codecs-ffmpeg-extra, so that's not the difference
<hajour> strange is i am not the only one i have seen more complains about this
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-20
 * AlanBell has an idea
<AlanBell> for UDS-O on the thursday evening lets invite everyone to http://www.lathatatlan.hu/en/invisible-dinner/
<AlanBell> jono ^^
<AlanBell> http://www.lathatatlan.hu/en/ for the general tour
<jono> AlanBell, nice! I did one of those dinners in London once
<jono> it was awesome :-)
<AlanBell> I went on a tour in vienna with a tech group some years back
<AlanBell> ended up chatting with the guide for an hour about how he experienced the web
<maco> neat!
<AlanBell> ended up talking about the evil of meta refresh tags which took the page away as he was reading it
<Pendulum> maco: ooh! I was going to poke you!
<maco> Pendulum: what i do?
<Pendulum> nothing yet :)
<maco> (more likely  "what did i not do this time?")
<maco> ah see, as i suspected!
<Pendulum> is there any chance you'd be willing to blog at some point about accessibility & QT as a follow-up to Mark's blog post about QT apps in Ubuntu?
<AlanBell> oooh that would be interesting
<Pendulum> maco: I just figure you're probably the accessibility team person who is most versed in QT
<maco> Pendulum: umm...all i know is at UDS i was told "patches welcome" by a Qt guy...it doesnt seem to be on their roadmap.  other thing i know is: the pdf viewer (okular) does have a screen reader
<maco> (but you need to install kttsd to get that part of okular to be enabled. kttsd is not part of a default kubuntu install)
<AlanBell> Pendulum: I think it is added to the planet now
<Pendulum> maco: even talking about lack of integration is good
<Pendulum> we just want some notice on the fact that it's something that needs work
 * Pendulum giggles at the "Congrats" from wordpress on AlanBell subscribing to the accessibility team blog
<Pendulum> AlanBell: thanks!
<AlanBell> :) I was hunting about for the RSS feed and the subscribe link looked promising
<Pendulum> I just loved that the notification said "Congrats" in it
<Pendulum> http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/introducing-the-accessibility-team-blog/
<erkan^> Cool , I add this in my RSS for TB too (-:
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Good first post.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: thanks :)
<charlie-tca> Pendulum: I like it, too. that is a good job to get the blog going!
<Pendulum> thanks :)
<Pendulum> I also just updated the blueprint
<Pendulum> to be more realistic
<charlie-tca> heh, realistic is sometimes good, sometimes bad :-)
<Pendulum> actually, most of it is related to things not making it in on alpha1
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-21
<Pendulum> i'm too tired to really look at this now, but if anyone has an answer for http://ubuntuaccessibility.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/introducing-the-accessibility-team-blog/#comment-3 it would be great
<Pendulum> (or even if someone other than me wants to say "e-mail the ML")
<MichelleQ1> Pendulum: sorry... I have no idea what he's asking for. :-/
 * TheMuso takes a peak.
<TheMuso> Sounds like he is having problems with magnification or some such...
<TheMuso> Asking him to email the ml is going to be counter-productive here I suspect.
<TheMuso> Since language is a barrier here, I really don't know what to ask that will be understood...
<charlie-tca> I agree. It is hard to even know what the "killer" application is
<charlie-tca> it's orca
<charlie-tca> killer whale?
<charlie-tca> Would it be good to ask to have a bug filed with "ubuntu-bug application" ?
<TheMuso> Language is still a barrier, regardless...
<TheMuso> We need a good translator to help us with this one.
<charlie-tca> yes, that would help
<MichelleQ1> would it be helpful to ask him to email the ML in his native language, and then find a translator?
<Pendulum> does maco know spanish?
<maco> not that well
<Pendulum> okay
<Pendulum> was trying to think of who here might know it
<maco> ive found i can get the gist of articles or follow "click on ____" directions, but im pretty useless on english2spanish
<maco> id beg favour from magicfab or dpm
<MichelleQ1> I've got a couple of guys on the flLoco team that would translate for me, if need be
<MichelleQ1> I'll bug itnet7's wife if I need to.  :-)
<maco> one of the guys who founded the dc loco is also married to a native spanish speaker (their voicemail message is repeated once in english and once in spanish even)
<TheMuso> JackyAlcine: Would you mind uploading your GPG key to a keyserver somewhere please? My GPG/email process is set up to retrieve keys whenever I get a new one. It seems gpg can't find yours...
<JackyAlcine> I'll do so; I thought I already synced my keys.
<JackyAlcine> They're on ldap://keyserver.pgp.com/
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: I didn't know you knew Spanish!
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: same trick he used :P
<UndiFineD> google translate
<Pendulum> ah
<Pendulum> I'm going to see if I can find someone from one of the Spanish-language LoCos to translate
<Pendulum> it'll be better that way long-term
<UndiFineD> good idea
<UndiFineD> hello Manuel, we found your message difficult to understand.
<UndiFineD> for poor eyesight, we suggest you use either the screen magnifier (in orca), 
<UndiFineD> or use speech to text and text to speech applications like simon listens and orca.
<proudhawk> afternoon all
<JackyAlcine> Afternoon proudhawk.
<Pendulum> hiya
<Pendulum> proudhawk: you don't happen to have Spanish among your many languages, do you?
<proudhawk> nope
<proudhawk> I am pretty much English Only.
<Pendulum> ah, sorry, for some reason I thought you spoke multiple languages
<Pendulum> JackyAlcine: you just picked the absolute wrong channel to "troll" in
<proudhawk> I learned german in highschool 25 years ago
<proudhawk> and neve3r used it
<JackyAlcine> Pendulum: I'll have to be in there in an half hour. 
<Pendulum> JackyAlcine: can I PM you?
<JackyAlcine> Sure.
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: why not as pedro3005 from brasil
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: ah, I did not know that!
<Pendulum> although he may know Portugese rather than Spanish
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-22
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: the spanish translation was ok ? or did it need modification ?
<Pendulum> haven't heard anything from the guy
<UndiFineD> alright, just curious :)
 * AlanBell hugs Pendulum 
<AlanBell> http://www.lathatatlan.hu can't take wheelchairs
<Pendulum> I'm not surprised
<Pendulum> so as long as the UW dinner isn't there, I'm okay :P
<Pendulum> to safely take wheelchair users (regardless of whether there's physical access or not), they'd have to have a blind wheelchair user who could guide. And I don't know any completely blind wheelchair users. (I know some who are legally blind)
<AlanBell> I asked if there was just physical access to the dinner part
<Pendulum> tbh, I suspect that if I make it to UDS-O, I will pretty much only be able to get around the hotel
<Pendulum> (without getting out of chair and scooting up or down stairs)
<Pendulum> because that's my memory of Budapest: everything has stairs
<Pendulum> Luckily, I went to Budapest when I was 16 so I will not feel sad that I cqan't get into things like the castle as I've already been to them :)
<Pendulum> okay, it looks like I might be able to use the metro if there are people with me (has escalators, but I know how to ride an escalator in a wheelchair if I've got people to help)
<Pendulum> there are a couple buslines I could use
<Pendulum> can't get good information about restaurants
<Pendulum> dunno how I can get from airport
<Pendulum> this could be exciting ;-)
<AlanBell> really not sure I can go at all, but I was thinking of flying out for the last two days or something
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> I'm going to apply for sponsorship and see what happens :)
<Pendulum> Someone other than TheMuso has to be around to raise the accessibility flag ;-)
<AlanBell> yup
<AlanBell> I don't think I will go for sponsorship as I can't give up the week
<AlanBell> flights are only a hundred quid
<Pendulum> *nods*
<AlanBell> I was thinking of organising an evening out for 30 people as an -accessibility event
<Pendulum> *nods*
<AlanBell> maybe getting some computers set up in the dark with Unity and get the desktop team along
<Pendulum> haha
<Pendulum> need to get it working at all that way first
<AlanBell> yeah
<AlanBell> would give them something to work towards :)
<Pendulum> although the desktop team is pretty aware of what's going on and the importance
<Pendulum> neil's definitely on board with getting accessibility to the best it can be
<charlie-tca> Using today's i386 Natty image, I can do an accessible installation using Orca. 
<charlie-tca> However, unity no longer recognizes my ATI 9800 video card as usable, so I ran it from classis desktop
<charlie-tca> Also, orca now speaks the password as clear letters and numbers
<Pendulum> yay for being able to do the install
<Pendulum> not so good on the rest of it
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> progress, I guess
<charlie-tca> heh, unity will be unusable by what, half the user base, if it won't recognize the 9800?
<charlie-tca> Oh, well. At least orca spoke to me today through the entire installation dialogs
<AlanBell> that is fantastic!
<AlanBell> or a major regression corrected
<charlie-tca> yes, kind of.
<charlie-tca> It does not tell you it is done, so get to guess at that part
<charlie-tca> But it did say "Return" when I hit the enter key to restart after the installation completed
<AlanBell> how do you start the accessible install?
<charlie-tca> hold right shift when it says it is starting from the cd
<charlie-tca> or hold during bios checks
<charlie-tca> oh, yeah, it fails when hitting any keys during the boot
<charlie-tca> the splash screen seems to ignore the keypress it should see
<charlie-tca> hm, and it booted into a gdm login without orca, but after logging in, it went to unity desktop with orca
<charlie-tca> At least we are making progress. Now I can finish the install test case
<AlanBell> yes, I will have a go at the install later this week I hope
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-01-23
<Pendulum> argh, I get so annoyed with the trash talking about Ubuntu a11y in other a11y groups when people then don't try to *do* anything
<Pendulum> AlanBell: can I run some things by you?
<AlanBell> sure
<AlanBell> oh, but maybe later
<Pendulum> AlanBell: you've got a PM for whenever you get around to it :)
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: the people in #opensuse-a11y are very friendly
<Pendulum> yeah, I phrased that badly
<Pendulum> Gnome A11y is also friendly
<UndiFineD> Pendulum: but what you say may be true, #drupal-accessibility  and #gentoo-accessibility are pretty much dead
<Pendulum> just got sick of hearing people complain that accessibility features on Ubuntu aren't tested
<Pendulum> because it's always people on non-Ubuntu lists doing the complaining
<Pendulum> jono: do you have time for a quick PM?
<hajour> Pendulum, if i have  a good working laptop again i can do more then i do know .
<hajour> it will be not very long when that moment will come
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-16
 * AlanBell upgraded laptop to precise
<AlanBell> the global menu seems to be a bit broken with orca now
<AlanBell> the menu items read "file label" "edit label" etc, but in some applications (gnome-terminal for a start) there are no menu items read out 
<AlanBell> in others they are read out but as tickbox items again
<AlanBell> the indicator menus are not readable at all it seems
<AlanBell> I can't get the orca pronunciation substitutions to work
<AlanBell> I tried to set up a rule so that it pronounces czajkowski as "Laura" but it doesn't seem to want to play
<AlanBell> never mind, that just requires a restart of orca rather than a reload of the preferences
<AlanBell> and the apply button does not apply it, probably a bug, but at least it works on restart
<maco> http://www.thepoke.co.uk/2011/08/17/bbc-sign-language-interpreter-sacked-for-changing-the-news/
<maco> (parody)
<valorie> lol
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-17
<Fudge> AlanBell  precise doesnt seem to keyboard navigate tabs in dialog boxes 
<Fudge> i find have to flat review and simulate click
<Fudge> resolved now with updates
 * AlanBell wonders if there will be a release of onboard in time for precise
<AlanBell> onboard trunk is worth trying to get in
<AlanBell> it pops up when you are in an editable field and fades away when you are not, which is a bit of a killer feature. It also has the model-m and typist themes which are just awesome imnsho
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-18
<paul_h> the 'a' appears to be missing from the end of the team meeting agenda URL
<AlanBell> so it is
<Pendulum> I may have had a family emergency come up so I may need to either turn the meeting over to someone or something, but I'm hoping I won't have to
<paul_h> Pendulum: hope everything is okay
<Pendulum> paul_h: yeah, it should be. (hard to explain why it both is a no big deal thing, but there's a chance I might have to go somewhere, but it's complicated)
<TheMuso> Hey folks.
<Pendulum> hiya TheMuso :)
<paul_h> morning
<Pendulum> okay, meeting time!
<Pendulum> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 18 21:02:43 2012 UTC.  The chair is Pendulum. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<AlanBell> o/
<Pendulum> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<Pendulum> charlie doesn't seem to be in channel :-/
<Pendulum> so who else is here for the meeting?
<paul_h> me, though really just to see where everything's at...
 * TheMuso raises his hand.
 * Pendulum pokes at maco 
<maco> what i do
<Pendulum> are you around for meeting?
<maco> i guess i can keep one eye here
 * maco counts eyes
<Pendulum> okay, so small meeting today...
<Pendulum> #topic Progress on Accessibility Team Community Goals Blueprint
<Pendulum> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-p-accessibility-team-community-goals
<AlanBell> oh, lots of TODO there
<Pendulum> yeah, although, I think some of it is probably in progress
<Pendulum> I've started trying to find some better expertise for LD concerns
<Pendulum> it's slow going
<Pendulum> I'm going to keep working
<Pendulum> we may not have a great LD persona by the end of this cycle because I have had more trouble finding resources
<Pendulum> but that really should be in progress
<Pendulum> I haven't been blogging bitesized bugs because I've been having issues finding out what the bitesized bugs are
<AlanBell> the Simon persona one is basically done
<TheMuso> Yeah, bytesized bugs for a11y are not as easy to find as one thinks, and usually they require knowledge of the underlying framework to fix.
<AlanBell> just needs finishing and publishing
<Pendulum> TheMuso: are label type bugs more likely to be bitesized?
<TheMuso> My only work item there is not time critical, if anything its an end of cycle job.
<TheMuso> Pendulum: Possibly, but again, knowledge of how labels get associated with widgets requires knowledge of atk.
<Pendulum> so this blueprint probably needs to be updated for more accurate status, but we're in progress on most things
<Pendulum> maco: do you know what's going on with workrave?
<maco> its been backported
<maco> though i cant claim credit. someone else was faster.
<Pendulum> but it's done, so that's a better status :)
<maco> yep
<Pendulum> AlanBell: installer documentation? how's that going?
<maco> TheMuso: in things that arent as ...."unusual"... as ubiquity, being able to click about in Glade should be enough for those
<AlanBell> Pendulum: not done, but I will do it
<TheMuso> maco: Assuming they use glade/gtkui files, yes.
<Pendulum> right, so that's where that blueprint is
<Pendulum> #topic Review Progress of Community Accessibility Testing Blueprint
<Pendulum> charlie-tca isn't here to give us his update so I will chase him down through e-mail
<Pendulum> I've been working with Charline (Canonical Usability specialist) and Dan (the Launchpad Usability specialist) to try to learn how to do usability testing
<TheMuso> Cool.
<TheMuso> '/c
<Pendulum> It's going a little slower than I'd like to learn, plus I've had some health stuff, so I'm going to have to put actual usability testing off to next cycle, but hopefully by the end of this cycle I'll have a good understanding of how to do it and hopefully have some people lined up so I can do some early in next cycle
 * TheMuso nods.
<Pendulum> At some point I'm hopefully going to be able to observe over skype or google hangout or something as Charline does some usability testing :)
<Pendulum> I'm waiting to find out what's going on with trying to do classes in Ubuntu Classroom. As soon as I find out when Charlie can do them, I'll schedule them!
<Pendulum> if anyone else wants to do accessibility classes, please let me know and I can schedule you in (Classroom is available for classes any time that there isn't already something scheduled, which gives  alot of time where things could happen)
<Pendulum> And I think my last item off this blueprint is test cases. I need to learn how to do that. If anyone has a suggestion for who I ask (other than charlie), let me know :-)
<paul_h> could I please have a link to the community testing blueprint? trying to bookmark all the a11 blueprints we have
<Pendulum> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-accessibility-team-testing
<Pendulum> paul_h: sorry, I meant to link that at the beginning of this section
<paul_h> thanks
<Pendulum> TheMuso: is there any progress on your items from this blueprint? (the documenting your expectations when you test and the published progress reports)
<TheMuso> Pendulum: No, as I have my hands full with the pollish spec. Once we hit feature freeze, I will see about getting that documented.
<Pendulum> TheMuso: great, thanks :)
<TheMuso> Its even more of a pain atm because we continually are getting a little bit of breakage/changes in vbehavior from GTK, so I need to keep on top of them.
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> maco: any word on the tutorial for how to develop that you were going to work on with Rodrigo?
<maco> nope
<maco> forgot about that...
<maco> that was rodrigo moya right?
<Pendulum> maco: blueprint just says Rodrigo
<maco> note to future self: use surnames
<TheMuso> WHom has since left Canonical.
<maco> i think its moya from gnome
<maco> i thought he was a gnome person
<TheMuso> He is.
<Pendulum> right, so this is something that may need to be rethought a little?
<maco> yeah
<Pendulum> So I will follow-up with Charlie on everything else and see what the plan is for this blueprint as I suspect it's the one that needs to be worked on the most
<Pendulum> #action Pendulum to follow up with charlie-tca on blueprint items
<meetingology> ACTION: Pendulum to follow up with charlie-tca on blueprint items
<Pendulum> does anyone else have anything from this particular blueprint to discuss?
<TheMuso> No.
<Pendulum> okay, moving on
<Pendulum> #topic Update on Accessibility Polish Blueprint
<Pendulum> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-p-accessibility-polish
<Pendulum> TheMuso: do you want to talk about your progress on this one?
<TheMuso> Sure.
<TheMuso> A lot of the work items marked INPROGRESS for me in that blueprint are actually done, pending cod emerge by D.
<TheMuso> Pending code merge by DX that is.
<Pendulum> yay!
<TheMuso> I am currently hammering away at getting Orca to speak more informatin about the state of apps when navigating the unity launcher.
<TheMuso> As well as getting magnification set up with Unity 2D and compiz, which works, but I am having some issues with ubiquity and compiz. I need to talk to Didrocks about how to solve that.
<TheMuso> Then I hope to move onto doing further widget a11y checks in ubiquity itself.
<TheMuso> Which is not something that needs doing by feature freeze, which is good.
<paul_h> TheMuso: can I ask what is the status of the notification system, which doesn't currently work with orca?
<TheMuso> I also still need to get the dash text entry field fully accessible.
<TheMuso> paul_h: You will notice on that blueprint that there is a work item to fix that. It is in progress, but the code itself is done, pending a code merge by DX.
<TheMuso> So I have it working locally.
<paul_h> TheMuso: great, sorry, trying to read up as quick as possible, what about the menus often not working with Orca?
<AlanBell> any thoughts on the overlay of shortcut information on long hold of the super key?
<TheMuso> I also hope to find some time to bang on some upstrea GTK bugs. Atm the file chooser doesn't work at all, and crashes with a11y enabled sometimes...
<TheMuso> AlanBell: No, that may have to be something for next cycle. We will just have to document/point users to a document with the shortcuts for now.
<TheMuso> paul_h: I have an idea as to how to fix that, but it requires some code refactor, which is about a day's work.
<TheMuso> I will probably bang on that on a weekend or something, since I haven't allocated time for it, particularly since the code refactor is large, and may not be allowed in post feature freeze.
<paul_h> TheMuso: okay, my other main thing is the state of accessible login and the sound alerts both on the live CD to indicate the try it/install screen and on an installed system when light dm is ready for login info to be typed
<TheMuso> paul_h: THe login screen sound and accessibility are in the works to be fixed. Whats wrong with the live CD sound?
<paul_h> TheMuso: well it doesn't play, at least it didn't when I did my install
<TheMuso> paul_h: Ok, probably more of a problem with sound then.
<TheMuso> I.e volume level.
<paul_h> well it's a minor thing, my accessible install of oneiric actually went very well. hope nothing gets broken for the next release
<TheMuso> Thats what I am trying to avoid...
 * Pendulum starts crossing things :)
<Pendulum> TheMuso: is that your update?
<TheMuso> Pretty much.
<Pendulum> As far as my action item on this blueprint goes, there is an upstream bug about putting the mouse customization back into the accessibility settings, however, I haven't seen any real progress on it and no one seems to be expecting any progress
<TheMuso> If anybody has further queries about anything specific on that blueprint, feel free to ask.
<Pendulum> or, at least, there doesn't seem to be a move to get it done quickly
<paul_h> TheMuso: just wondering how many of the technical fixes will make it into oneiric updates?
<TheMuso> paul_h: Depends on which ones you are thinking about. Most of them like the menu bug are not SRU worthy, as they are so invasive. The notifications bugfix is probably something I could push into oneiric-updates though.
<TheMuso> That reminds me, I still need to push orca 3.2.2 into oneiric-updates too.
<AlanBell> it would be nice to get a new release of onboard too
<TheMuso> Bug the onboard guys about that...
<AlanBell> yeah, will do
<paul_h> TheMuso: okay, if the notifications fix could make it into oneiric I would cry for joy...
<TheMuso> I'll see what I can do, need to get it into precise first though as per policy.
<paul_h> TheMuso: failing that, point me to the source packages to manuyally build...
<TheMuso> paul_h: The code is not yet in the vcs tree for the source package yet...
<TheMuso> It requires a fix to orca as well.
<TheMuso> I'll push it upstrea once the notification display software is fixed.
<paul_h> okay. I'm done on this blueprint
<Pendulum> AlanBell: any update on your items?
<AlanBell> yes, I am investigating focus tracking, the code compiles and there were some updates to it yesterday
<AlanBell> I am going to try and get it working and find out how to get it in a PPA I think
<AlanBell> and I forgot about the gnome control centre one, will have a look at that in a sec
<Pendulum> okay, so that looks like that's in for this blueprint
<Pendulum> #topic Any Other Business
<Pendulum> Does anyone else have anything they want to bring up at this meeting?
<paul_h> not me, thanks Pendulum TheMuso for your responses
<Pendulum> okay, I guess that's it
<Pendulum> Thank you everyone for coming!
<Pendulum> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 18 22:07:44 2012 UTC.  
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-accessibility/2012/ubuntu-accessibility.2012-01-18-21.02.moin.txt
<AlanBell> thanks Pendulum 
<Pendulum> okay, I'm off. Agenda page and meeting minutes updated on the wiki
<Pendulum> you know, y'all noticed that the "a" was missing on Agenda, but no one noticed that I had the year in the topic wrong
<TheMuso> heh
* Pendulum changed the topic of #ubuntu-accessibility to: Ubuntu Accessibility Team https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility for more info | http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility to join the mailing list |  Channel IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ -
<Pendulum> Updated every hour | Next Team Meeting February 15, 2012 @ 21:00 UTC. Meeting agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<Pendulum> odd
* Pendulum changed the topic of #ubuntu-accessibility to: Ubuntu Accessibility Team https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility for more info | http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility to join the mailing list |  Channel IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ -
<Pendulum> Updated every hour | Next Team Meeting February 15, 2012 @ 21:00 UTC. Meeting agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<Pendulum> it doesn't like my topic :(
* Pendulum changed the topic of #ubuntu-accessibility to: Ubuntu Accessibility Team https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility for more info | http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-accessibility to join the mailing list |  Channel IRC logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ -Updated every hour | Next Team Meeting February 15, 2012 @ 21:00 UTC. Meeting agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team/MeetingAgenda
<paul_h> I only noticed the missing 'a' cos I copied and pasted the url into firefox and it didn't work... lol
<Pendulum> my grandmother's 90th birthday is in May and I'm making a quilt with squares decorated by family members
<Pendulum> my mother and I wrote a letter, got 60 copies printed at Staples (colour photo on it)
<Pendulum> brought it home and realised it said 2011 every single time there was a year
<paul_h> whoops!
<Pendulum> both of us have actually been proofreaders in a professional or semi-professional capacity in our pasts as well
<Pendulum> but now I must go get food so that my parents don't starve when they get home from Florida tonight
<Pendulum> since they're already going to freeze
<paul_h> see yer
 * AlanBell has compiz enhanced zoom text cursor tracking
<TheMuso> AlanBell: Nice.
<AlanBell> I will try and write up a howto and do a screencast of it
<AlanBell> I can also see some enhancements that could be made
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-19
<Fudge> is it possible to review the notification messages from a file?
<AlanBell> Fudge: sadly I don't think it is, part of the design of them is that they should be possible to ignore
<AlanBell> but that might be something that can be hacked in somehow, to pipe them to a file
<Fudge> sorry i didnt make the meeting
<Fudge> not that i really have anything to contribute
<Fudge> i did just read it though
<Fudge> looks like i can hang a while longer till TheMuso  can get the notification stuff submitted
<Fudge> anyone noticed the inability in oneirirc to assign keybind to orca
<Fudge> or is it just me
<paul_h> Fudge: I think that problem is fixed in Orca master
<Fudge> ok thanks for that paul_h 
<TheMuso> Yeah, thats one of the fixes in orca 3.2.2.
<TheMuso> Which I need to get into oneiric. I was intending to, but got side tracked.
<Fudge> TheMuso  GNOME Bugzilla â Bug 668236 Submitted
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 668236 in mahara "Feedback is not possible on individual file-based artefacts" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/668236
<Fudge> huh?
<TheMuso> Fudge: It thought you were talking about an Ubuntu bug.
<TheMuso> GNOME bug 668236
<ubot2> Gnome bug 668236 in Desktop "nautilus frequently crashes with no error Ubuntu Oneiric / Precise using show hidden files / list view with gnome orca 3.2.1 for text to speech" [Critical,Unconfirmed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=668236
<TheMuso> hrm
<TheMuso> gnome bug 668236
<TheMuso> oh yeah I misread. :)
<TheMuso> Fudge: As to your bug, it is possible to get a crash report.
<TheMuso> Edit /etc/default/apport and enable it, reboot and reproduce the issue.
<Fudge> is apport accessible with orca now?
<TheMuso> For the most part I believe it is yes.
<TheMuso> Granted I haven't tried for a while.
<Fudge> where do the reports go  
<Fudge> its already enabled
<TheMuso> You should get a popup saying somethign crashed.
<TheMuso> But fi not, check in /var/crash.
<Fudge> can i attach it to my bug?
<TheMuso> You don't want the whole file.
<TheMuso> You want a stack trace.
<TheMuso> Fudge: First, copy the file to your home dir.
<TheMuso> Fudge: Then, run "apport-cli -c crash-file-name"
<TheMuso> Then follow the instructions.
<Fudge> TheMuso  keep report to attach to the bug?
<Fudge> i kind of assumed since its apport-cli that i coudl use it in a console but it did say that on one of the options a browser will be openned
<TheMuso> Fudge: No, apport-cli will do what is needed.
<TheMuso> Yes thats right, so do it in X.
<TheMuso> The crash file is kind of like an archive of several iimportant bits of info.
<Fudge> ill do it from gnome terminal
<TheMuso> Ok.
<Fudge> how do u file a bug against anothe rbug when apport gives a similar error string
<Fudge> TheMuso  bug 918526
<TheMuso> Fudge: What do you mean exactly?
<Fudge> anyone have an idea why the content of a website is not visible to me with flat review? ff is maximized i see noscript and toolbars but no content
<Fudge> anyone have a contact in google accessibility
<Fudge> be great when that gets pushed into precise TheMuso , notifcations :D
<Fudge> notifications
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-20
<TheMuso> ./c
<Fudge> TheMuso  is ubuntu bug 886700 spewing errors because pulse is not running at the right place?
<ubot2> Ubuntu bug 886700 in alsa-driver "[HDA-Intel - HDA Intel, playback] Playback problem" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/886700
#ubuntu-accessibility 2012-01-22
<Fudge> anyone about, hoping to get some help with quilt to make a patch
<Fudge> or something
<valorie> Fudge: why not try #ubuntu-devel ?
<valorie> using quilt to make a patch is a devel thing
<Fudge> valorie  thanks, i got some made using diff origfile newfile > patchname
<Fudge> hopefully it cuts the cheese
<valorie> well, I don't know, not being a devel
<Fudge> all good
<Fudge> what u workin on AlanBell 
<AlanBell> mostly real life stuff today Fudge :)
<AlanBell> changing a tyre on the car in a moment
<Fudge> cool as mate
<Fudge> my ride has 17 235s
<Fudge> think 45s
<phillw> Can some one tell me if the WCAG v2 guidlines are now preferred over the WCAG v1 ones for new sites?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-01-16
<Fudge> wake up world
#ubuntu-accessibility 2013-01-18
<JanC> for those of you coming to FOSDEM: https://fosdem.org/2013/schedule/event/obsoleteenableacccessibility/
<JanC> this might be interesting
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-01-13
<thismagpie> Hi Fudge, were you able to sort things out with firefox? I checked some bugs and there were a few filed against orca citing firefox but that's as far as I got, unfortunately.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-01-14
<thismagpie> blkperl, there is also the gnome-shell magnifier but I think the person was interested in an ubuntu unity one. It's crazy there is no desktop agnostic magnifier available really. I might have a go at changing that if it is really the case.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-01-16
<Fudge> hey thismagpie  not yet mate, Joanie is working on Geko problems I think
<Fudge> have not been having as much trouble with commits to Orca master though over last couple of days, toggle Caret navigation sometimes to fix quick
#ubuntu-accessibility 2014-01-18
<colonelqubit> Testing orca on 12.04, characters in key combos are unexpectedly entered into my docs. E.g. I'll type "Orca (Capslock) + T", the time will be spoken, and "T" will appear in my document.
#ubuntu-accessibility 2016-01-21
<Pursche01> Hello there, I have what could be a stupid question. I am looking for the correct IRC room to ask about Ubuntu's mouse handling. Do you have any idea where I could ask questions about the mouse?
