#ubuntu-us-wi 2011-08-29
<jamesw> hello
<jamesw> is anyone else a canonical employee?
<h00k> Oi
<h00k> coffee is indeed good
<lostson> coffee ius my 42
<lostson> is*
<h00k> I need some
<lostson>  pidgin should be the default IM client in Ubuntu empathy just is not good
<mikeputnam> irssi!
<mikeputnam> ;)
<Cheesehead> We get that a lot in Brainstorm: "Foo stinks, Bar should be the default"
<Cheesehead> I pride myself on closing just about all of them.
<Cheesehead> I am liking irssi better, though I miss empathy's built-in taskbar notification
<lostson> that is the thing empathy's notifications are not working nor is it working with the launcher
<h00k> empathy is kinda broken yet on Oneiric, I've noticed
<lostson> is it well that is too bad cuz i know its broken on 11.04
<h00k> Well, like the notifications, when clicked, don't always bring up the chat window
<h00k> sometimes the chat window opens blank
<h00k> douglasawh-desk: HI!
<h00k> How's it going wherever you are
<douglasawh-desk> h00k: busily. thanks for asking.
<douglasawh-desk> h00k: storm and law school updates can be found at http://280.status.net/douglasawh/
<douglasawh-desk> short story on the storm is that basically everywhere that had problems was south and/or west of here
<douglasawh-desk> I gotta an assignment due tomorrow I need to work on atm
<douglasawh-desk> I was going to say I gotta run...you can see how that turned out
<h00k> douglasawh-desk: of course you'd throw me to your status.net :D I shall check
<h00k> http://stabyourself.net/mari0/
#ubuntu-us-wi 2011-08-30
 * h00k buils up the calluses on his hand
<h00k> s/hand/fingers/
<Cheesehead> Reminder: Milwaukee Ubuntu Hour this Friday. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1093/detail/
<Cheesehead> Reminder: IRC Brainstorm Jam this Saturday. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/
<Cheesehead> Reminder: IRC Wisconsin Bug Jam this Sunday. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1178/detail/
#ubuntu-us-wi 2011-08-31
<h00k> hi friends.
<twopoint718> h00k: hello
#ubuntu-us-wi 2011-09-01
<h00k> twopoint718: yo
<Cheesehead> Ah, perhaps I'm finally getting the hang og irssi settings and screen usage.
<Cheesehead> og not. Hasn't helped my spellng.
<h00k> Cheesehead: I saw you....logged in as root earlier!
<Cheesehead> Yup.
<Cheesehead> Did I learn for that experience?
<Cheesehead> /for/from
<h00k> Hah
<Cheesehead> Perhaps I will do *everything* as root for a day or two. With my fumbly fingers, what could go wrong?
<h00k> O.O good idea.
<h00k> it's okay, you have backups...
<h00k> yes?
<Cheesehead> What's a backup?
 * Cheesehead washes his car AS ROOT muah ha ha ha
 * Cheesehead pyas the eclectric bill AS ROOT muah ha ha ha
<Cheesehead> Dang. That typo just cost me $40.
 * Cheesehead goes back to being an ordinary user.
<Cheesehead> Hooray! Just tried detaching irssi screen, logout of ssh session, log back in, re-attach irssi screen.
<Cheesehead> At last, my announced presence in this channel is irrelevant!
<Cheesehead> Well, slightly more irrelevant.
<h00k> :D
<twopoint718> running as root: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/02/24/bofh_2006_episode_8/ (funny)
<mikeputnam> "So of course I'm sporting a headache that measures 'Kurt Cobain' on the pain scale and instead of easing it with some hair of the dog I have to sit through the inane drivel of a man who knows as much about linux as Princess Grace did about mountain driving..."
<mikeputnam> "It seems you were right after all"
<mikeputnam> "What do you mean?"
<mikeputnam> "About a silly typing error causing problems"
<mikeputnam> "How"
<mikeputnam> "Well I logged in as root earlier and I was just going to try that ps thing you mentioned, but instead I accidentally typed in 'nohup cd /; rm -rf * > /dev/null 2>&1 &' "
 * Cheesehead hates when he types that by accident
<mikeputnam> especially with that dangling carrot of nohup
<Cheesehead> I figured out that I *can* do most things as root. Just not on the computer.
#ubuntu-us-wi 2011-09-02
<lostson_> tornado sirens went off here in kimberly
 * mikeputnam     Membership renewed until 2012-09-08.
 * Cheesehead also renewed membership today
<Cheesehead> Event reminder - Milwaukee Ubuntu Hour, 6 PM. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1093/detail/
 * Cheesehead just sent Global Jam events reminder to the mailing list
<ripps> If anybody has any packaging questions during the Jam, just ask me
<Cheesehead> ripps: Thanks
<Cheesehe1d> The Milwaukee Ubuntu Hour Begins!
<Cheesehe1d> Now I have a reason to enable internet logins to my irssi machine - 'Cheesehe1d' sound like I have a cold
 * Cheesehe1d noticed that the battery meter tirned yellow, and plugs in the laptop
 * Cheesehe1d 's battery is back up to 60%
 * Cheesehe1d 's battery is back up to 84%
<Cheesehe1d> Thanks everyone for coming.
<Cheesehe1d> #endUbuntuHour
#ubuntu-us-wi 2011-09-03
<Cheesehead> Brainstorm Jam begins in four hours
<lostson> wish I was gonna be around but got to work
<Cheesehead> lostson: We'll miss you.
<Cheesehead> Two confirmed gonna-miss-it so far.
<Cheesehead> But what do I expect midday of a holiday weekend?
<lostson> yeah unfortunately i am on a 12 day run of work and the storm that just ripped through this county didnt help either
<Cheesehead> More storms on the way today...
<lostson> hopefully not as bad today
 * Cheesehead hopes for the largest turnout tomorrow for the IRC Bug Jam at noon CDT
<lostson> yeah i wanted to get in on that one bigtime i love doing stuff like that
<Cheesehead> You know, if there is interest enough, we can *always* do a second session of these events
<Cheesehead> Just propose a time
<lostson> thats true
<Cheesehead> The way I structure stuff works best with three or more people, since there is a lot of discussion.
<Cheesehead> So we need an alternate time, and (ideally) two other participants
 * Cheesehead sent an e-mail reminder of the Brainstorm Jam
<lostson> just got it
<lostson> i will have to read the logs when I get back and catch up tonight after work
<lostson> well time to get ready for work hope you all have fun today and get a great turnout!
<Cheesehead> lostson: Thanks.
<h00k> hi
<h00k> I'm on my phone
<h00k> Cheesehead, lostson
<h00k> hanging out in # ubuntu-locoteams, too
<Cheesehead> Brainstorm Triage Jam will begin in this channel at 1700 UTC (1200 CDT). http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/
<h00k> hiii
<h00k> ntop
<h00k> bah
<Cheesehead> stop ntopping me
<h00k> heh
<h00k> trying to change topic
<h00k> bad idea on mobile
 * Cheesehead goes off to load the dishwasher
<h00k> Did you see the email I sent?
<Cheesehead> The one that said you wouldn't be around?
<Cheesehead> The one that said you love your *family* more than a bunch of anonymous internet geeks?
<h00k> lol
<h00k> yrp!
<h00k> yep!
<Cheesehead> No. I haven't seen it.
<h00k> I
<h00k> http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<h00k> there we are
<h00k> ok. may lose service
<h00k> apostle islands :D
<h00k> good luck, maybe I'LL be able top attend
<Cheesehead> h00k: Thanks. I think we'll hace a good time.
<Cheesehead> Brainstorm Triage Jam will begin in this channel in 5 min. http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1177/detail/
<Cheesehead> Training session will be in this channel. Non-training triage will be in #ubuntu-brainstorm
<yotux> Cheesehead:  Thanks for the info
<Cheesehead> Hello, everyone here for the Brainstorm Triage Jam.
<Cheesehead> Activity in this channel is logged - you can get the logs at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/03/%23ubuntu-us-wi#t17:00
<Cheesehead> Let's see how many participants we have here. Could everyone active in this channel please give a response?
<yotux> Here
<Cheesehead> Anyone else for the Brainstorm Jam?
<crog> I'll come along for the ride
<Cheesehead> Welcome abord
<Cheesehead> aborad
<Cheesehead> ab...you know what i mean
<crog> yeah
<Cheesehead> Anyone want the long lecure about what Brainstorm is, what it does, and how it helps Ubuntu (dafault =no)
 * Cheesehead curses his fumbly fingers
<Cheesehead> There are three goals here today:
<Cheesehead> 1) Meet new people and have fun
<Cheesehead> 2) Learn more about how the various projects/teams/communities work together
<Cheesehead> 3) Figure out how the next step for some ideas to improve Ubuntu.
<Cheesehead> All abilities are welcome, no experience necessary.
<yotux> ok
<Cheesehead> yotux: What do you feel your strengths are in Ubuntu?
<Cheesehead> (crog, you get the same question next)
<yotux> I have send some bug reports,  I try and run alphas,  try and support the corp side of con.
<Cheesehead> Wonderful. Crog?
<crog> used since about 05 - know my way around package management pretty well
<crog> haven't any experience directly with packaging however
<Cheesehead> Let's take a look at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/26681/
<Cheesehead> Give you a moment to read it...
<crog> hmmm - I guess I mostly agree w/ Soln 3 -
<yotux> I second that
<crog> but what I think would really help with this is if a tool could seamlessly manage backups/restores
<Cheesehead> Question: Is the problem really a problem at all?
<crog> or if there is a way to "try out" a setting first.
<crog> Cheesehead: good question
<yotux> I think that it is not a problem
<yotux> if your are playing in etc files you should already know the dangers
<Cheesehead> Perhaps this user hosed an /etc file, and didn't know how to reinstall?
<crog> in a typical *nix env - this is setup by an admin for you
<Cheesehead> ...the package
<yotux> when using the cmd user are always suggested to rename to .bak'
<crog> but in a desktop environment - the noob becomes the admin
<crog> Whether they have the experience or not.
<Cheesehead> If they are new, is it likely they will be playing in /etc?
<crog> yotux: yeah - that's the way to do it.  I could envision a gui that does that for you.
<crog> Cheesehead: probably no
<yotux> when new to a os -- maybe find a mentor before running into cmd?
<Cheesehead> If I were in a help forum, I would tell the user to apt-get reinstall the package. That should solve the problem, no?
<yotux> Cheesehead:  I don't think etc is the first stop
<yotux> Cheesehead:  not
<yotux> that command doesn't purge config files does it?
<Cheesehead> True, but apt-get purge foo; apt-get install foo should do it.
<Cheesehead> Also, to hose an /etc file, wouldn't they need to be abusing sudo?
<yotux> Cheesehead: yes
<crog> Cheesehead: yes and yes
<Cheesehead> This happens a lot in Brainstorm - "somebody else" should write a GUI...
<Cheesehead> that replaces a simple command line
<crog> Cheesehead: So - we have different ideas, but generally agree this isn't a problem
<crog> Cheesehead: there are ways it could be made more noob friendly - but probably not the resources to focus on this right now
<Cheesehead> Agreed. I will mark it so a bit later.
<crog> Cheesehead: ultimately, what's the goal of our triage?
<Cheesehead> Good question...
<Cheesehead> If you fellows were noobs, it would be to train you about how Ubuntu works...
<Cheesehead> but instead, let me cut-and-paste a better goal:
<Cheesehead> HOW YOU ARE HELPING: Some ideas don't belong in Brainstorm. You are helping teach those submitters the correct venue, and teaching them more about Ubuntu.
<Cheesehead> You are starting them down the yellow brick road.
<Cheesehead> Also, you are contributing to the real ideas that need solutions and comments.
<Cheesehead> Finally, you are making the Technical Board's job easier. They shouldn't need to wade through bugs and wishes to find real issues.
 * Cheesehead didn't know he could type that fast!
<crog> Given this isn't a bug, it's a wish - and "brainstorm" connotes a place to make improvement suggestions - it's probably where I would have thought something like this belonged.
<crog> I wouldn't file a bug
<crog> I suppose I would try a bit of googling and forums before posting here thought
<Cheesehead> I think we agreed it's not a bug...
<crog> though
<Cheesehead> but it's not really a problem either...
<Cheesehead> in this case, the submitter probably can't come up with a valid use case...
<Cheesehead> so there's not much for a developer wot work with.
<crog> ahhh - good point
<yotux> Cheesehead:  To me it came to self accountability
<Cheesehead> yotux: Precisely.
<Cheesehead> Let's look at a fresh one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28471/
<Cheesehead> One goal of triage is to direct the submitter to the most appropriate venue.
<Cheesehead> How are they supposed to know if nobody tells them?
<yotux> I think that this would be something to bring up in the art work group?
<Cheesehead> Possibly, though they deal with static stuff.
<Cheesehead> Fade is more likely a light-dm or compiz issue, I should think.
<crog> I guess I'm at a loss with this one...
<crog> yeah - I was thinking compiz
<yotux> ok
<Cheesehead> So, essentailly, 'Go talk to compiz about it'
<yotux> Cheesehead: since its already a feature we should not need to create a duplicate feature
<Cheesehead> Agreed
<yotux> by feature I mean it is something we can already do
<Cheesehead> Another reason for them to talk to Compiz, I read this as a refinement of the existing login
<Cheesehead> rather than a new feature
<yotux> Cheesehead: thanks we are thinking along the same lines
<Cheesehead> I must spend a few minutes googling a Compiz point of contact to refer them to...later
<Cheesehead> crog, what do you think?
<crog> If I didn't know there was a piece of software called "compiz" that handles the visual stuff
<crog> And my system didn't already display this behavior
<crog> I probalby wouldn't know where to look
<crog> So it's back to what you said ont he last one
<crog> Its an opportunity to reply and try to educate
<yotux> I agree
<Cheesehead> Agreed
<Cheesehead> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28468/
<Cheesehead> I thought this one was interesting
<Cheesehead> Streches your brain a bit doesn't it?
<crog> I'm not sure I understand - doesn't that require a cell tower or GPS?
<crog> Is the person working on a tablet?
<Cheesehead> Siderial time merely requires a clock and an ephemeris
<Cheesehead> Or algorithms to simulate an ephemeris
<Cheesehead> Or...a sundial
<yotux> your solution makes sense,  I would say it needs to be updated to work with current software set
<crog> I guess I was confusing this (which I don't quite understnd) with a location-based service
<yotux> crog:  location base can also you ip addresses
<crog> Yeah - you post helps some developer who can pick up the algorithm (already done), and make it work in Unity
<yotux> I agress with crog
<Cheesehead> Clarification: Sidereal time (solar time) is the time shown by a sundial instead of a clock
<yotux> Cheesehead: could / should one refer the submitter to the current package manager of the package?
<Cheesehead> Well, would that help the submitter?
<yotux> I say yes
<Cheesehead> What does the submitter want (in simple terms?)
<crog> submitter want's an app
<yotux> Cheesehead: he wants a package that exist,  but is not current
<crog> current package maintainer may not be insterested in "porting"
<Cheesehead> The package is current, just incompatible with his chosen desktop environment
<yotux> I am not sure how much unity is be cross ported to XFCE and others
<Cheesehead> So, is this an App request, a porting request, or something else?
<yotux> I would vote porting
<Cheesehead> And is this something the submitter needs to do more legwork on, or is this ready for a developer to tackle?
<yotux> Submitter needs to do leg work and possibly make a follow up post
<Cheesehead> What kind of legwork?
<yotux> I would start by contacting the current package maintainer, see if there is an interest in porting
<Cheesehead> That is a good start.
<yotux> From there its up to the submitter were he want to take it
<Cheesehead> What about extracting the LMT algorithms to a separate lib?
<crog> from a dev point of view, that's the most useful
<crog> you could incorporate that into other apps, or build your own gui
<Cheesehead> I see two approaches, taken together:
<yotux> could do this,  but it may be beyond their skill set
<Cheesehead> Approach the package maintainer about the posibility of a port or lib-creation
<Cheesehead> And approach Unity about the adding the feature if such a port or lib became available
<yotux> agreed
<Cheesehead> The submitter's role is 100% leadership and cajoling, it seems to me.
<yotux> Since it does exist yes I agree
<crog> may be off topic - who is the "typical submitter" in brainstorm?
<Cheesehead> Great question
<Cheesehead> Often a new user.
<Cheesehead> But sometimes highly experienced or a developer.
<Cheesehead> New users ideas tend toward "create a big new application"
<Cheesehead> or "make it more like what I was used to on Win/OSX"
<komputes> Hello to all from Montreal
<Cheesehead> hey, komputes1
<Cheesehead> hey, komputes!
<yotux> hello, komputes
<Cheesehead> Okay, next one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28474/
<komputes> yotux: sup Nathan
<crog> Cheesehead: sorry - it's not loading for me...
<Cheesehead> checking...
<yotux> Cheesehead:  This is a large and interesting  goal
<Cheesehead> works for me. Perhaps the server was briefly busy.
<yotux> Cheesehead:   There needs to be allot of legal work for the submitter
<Cheesehead> Well, I suspect Canonical and Google would want to hammer out the legal details themselves.
<crog> I don' know google docs
<yotux> Google, canonical would have to agree to share api resources
<Cheesehead> yotux: That's a great comment, though. I hadn't thought of it.
<Cheesehead> yotux: Yeah, so there's a contract involved
<Cheesehead> Would Google be interested in such a deal?
<Cheesehead> What would Google get out of it?
<yotux> Google docs is changing API allot,  ubuntu 1 is corp baby (project)
<yotux> both services offer storage space for sale
<crog> is having them synced without a PC core to the suggestion?
<Cheesehead> crog: I read it so.
<crog> I'd consider writing some sort of script/app to talk to both services, and put in in cron
<Cheesehead> Excellent workaround!
<yotux> crog:  they want to have all things synced between servers
<yotux> crog:  my read was they don't want to have to sync services with local machine
<Cheesehead> Beyond talking to Ubuntu One to convince them to miestone such a feature, is there really anything else the submitter can do?
<crog> Ok - so as before - it's hard for a dev to act on this one
<yotux> yes agreed
<Cheesehead> Since there are some rich comments (legal, API changes, etc),
<yotux> I see the only option for submitter is to ask
<Cheesehead> I'm tempted to leave this open for a month or so and see what other comments come in
<Cheesehead> That's one of the benefits of Brainstorm
 * Cheesehead stands up and stretches his brain
<Cheesehead> Ah, good. I had a kink in that right frontal lobe.
<Cheesehead> Next: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28453/
<yotux> This is a OEM type install question
<yotux> I have never used this install case but it would fall into that area / Team
<Cheesehead> Yes. How does Ubuntu currently handle such?
<yotux> When I download the image it installed a lang pack
<Cheesehead> This kind of request pops up every year or so
<Cheesehead> It's generally a new-user
<Cheesehead> 'Make it like it was on Win/OSX'
<yotux> Not sure how to configure packages and system with lang pack installed
<yotux> It could be refereed to the OEM team but that not our pack.  Submitter needs to ask OEM install team
<Cheesehead> Since System76 manages to sell systems with Ubuntu installed, is this really an issue?
<yotux> No
<Cheesehead> I suspect we don;t know enough about what the user *really* wants
<Cheesehead> Is the user really an OEM?
<yotux> and if so should he not spend his own resources
<crog> Yeah - I was trying to guess what he wanted to do with this.
<crog> yotux: that's exactly what I thought
<yotux> so ask for more info and make a more informed not an issue
<komputes> Cheesehead: I would change the rationale here to, there is no easy way to install Ubuntu OEM (preinstall). Then in the Solution put 1) make OEM image release 2) use a flag on ubiquity to make it run in OEM mode
<Cheesehead> Very possible. But still, do we have a use case to justify developer time?
<komputes> Cheesehead: currently, I'm being told, that the alternate disk has this option already
<Cheesehead> There we go!
 * Cheesehead laughs
<komputes> Cheesehead: when you boot the CD, press a key to bring up the menu, then I think it's F6 to get the menu which says OEM install
<Cheesehead> Man, whenever you're around I *learn things*
<yotux> komputes:   its something like that
<Cheesehead> You guys are filling my brain!
<crog> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu_OEM_Installer_Overview
<yotux> I use alt CD allot
<yotux> crog:   thanks
<Cheesehead> crog: Thanks!
<Cheesehead> Next: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28401/
<komputes> It's actually F4
<Cheesehead> Um, skip the comments. Let's see what you think unvarnished
<crog> I guess that's a good reminder that the discussion is helpful - and search may be moreso
<Cheesehead> Yes, LOTS of Brainstorm issues are settles by 10 seconds with a search engine.
<crog> And I'll never understand all of the *.dll's in windows/system32
<komputes> Cheesehead: I marked it implemented and added the comment on how to get er dun
<yotux> ok this is not an issue for a non power user
<Cheesehead> komputes: Thanks!
<Cheesehead> crog: Great point - nobody knows everything! I sure don't know much at all.
<Cheesehead> I've just been hanging around a while.
<komputes>  nobody knows everything... but collectively...
<crog> My point of course is that something as complicated as an OS has a lot of good reasons for why things are the way they are.
<Cheesehead> crog: Another great point.
<Cheesehead> A lot of new users don't know those reasons. That ties right into this idea.
<komputes> Are you guys on a boat? IdleOne says hi.
<Cheesehead> Any thoughts on http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/28401/
<Cheesehead> ?
<crog> The discussion in that idea has been ongoing
<yotux> I don't see that there needs to be a whole rewrite of structure
<crog> It's not something anyone's going to want to change
<yotux> This could be sent to software center
<Cheesehead> Is it really a problem?
<yotux> but it we want a list of installed software it show in SC
<yotux> It a windows / OSX issue
<crog> how do you just close/nuke it?
<yotux> our issue I would say no
<crog> and still thank Sman789 for the idea/time...
<crog> No - it's core to pretty much any Linix distro - and most all of their predecessors
<Cheesehead> Well, I read it as the submitter is asking for a kind of Nautilus filter to find application-specific files
<crog> Cheesehead: I may not be on the same one anymore...
<crog> 28401?
<Cheesehead> 28401
<crog> Ahhh - this is a feature I find most useful, but hard to get to.
<Cheesehead> I read solution #1 as "use a magic wand". A bit unrealistic, and the author even agrees.
<yotux> I have used linux for a long time,  not a power user,  the only thing diff is ubuntuy has no root
<crog> When you go into synaptic (if you use that) - for installed packages, you can see the details of what's installed, and where.
<crog> While I wouldn't suggest changing anything, I think this is the sort of information the submitter is looking for.
<Cheesehead> crog: I suspect it's implied that he finds that too cumbersome
<Cheesehead> I thought of installing in a chroot, but again that may be too cumbersome for whatever he wants to do
<crog> I do too - I shouldn't need to go into my package manager app for that if the database were more accessable
<crog> as you say - to something like Nautilus
<Cheesehead> Which raises the question: What does he want to do with this feature?
<crog> Right - probalby needs a better use case laid out
<Cheesehead> Okay, so let's say a fabulous use case shows up. What's his next step?
<crog> ...  package his own distro?
<crog> <only 1/2 serious>
<Cheesehead> Well, if he backs off Solution #1 and is willing to accept, say, a Nautilus plug-in that queries the apt database...
<Cheesehead> then how about suggesting such a plug-in to Gnome?
<Cheesehead> Alternately...
<Cheesehead> a nautilus plug-in may be small enough that he can hack at it himself
<crog> agreed
<Cheesehead> Since other solutions are possible, how about...
<Cheesehead> 1) ask the author to clarify the use case,
<Cheesehead> 2) add another solution (Nautilus plug-in)
<yotux> I agree,   but I don't understand why he finds the need to be in a /usr/  file place
<Cheesehead> Agreed
<crog> I still would want more info about what he's trying to accomplish - and what's meant by, "frequently-used folders are so scary"
<crog> What's the frequent usage?
<yotux> most apps create .foo configs in /home/user
<Cheesehead> Seems to go back to usage/use case clarification
<yotux> yes,  need more info
<Cheesehead> 3) leave it open a month to gauge reacton and other solutions, then send the submitter on his way
<Cheesehead> Since nobody is likely to develop it for him.
<crog> After reading solution 2 again - maybe it's a "uninstall" vs "purge" question.
<crog> Yep - 1,2,3 as Cheesehead suggests.
<Cheesehead> OOh, another cut/paste opportunity:
<Cheesehead> ANALOGY - Brainstorm is like the Wizard of Oz, not Glinda the Good Witch.
<Cheesehead> Glinda had a magic wand, and could do *anything* effortlessly.
<Cheesehead> The Wizard didn't have a magic wand, and pointed supplicants along the path of self-development.
<Cheesehead> We don't have a magic wand.
<Cheesehead> (It's a limited analogy - we don't send supplicants to be slaves of the Wicked Witch.)
<Cheesehead> (My apologies to the billions of non-North Americans unfamiliar with the book or movie)
<Cheesehead> Next up: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27492/
<yotux> cheesehead:  I would say use a group to have access /home folder
<yotux> a user can be part of a group and a group can have open access to a limited amount of data
<yotux> Please correct if I am wrong
<Cheesehead> So, Solution #1.
<Cheesehead> That's indeed an effective method.
<yotux> Thats the easy way
<Cheesehead> Is there really a need for a non-root to backup everybody else's stuff?
<yotux> I am not sure howto do the deamon method
<yotux> no, not a need
<crog> I think you're either on a system where the admin backs up everything for you (i.e. I backup my wife's /home - and I have su/root)
<yotux> the question makes it sound like root is in need to make backsup of all data but doesn't want to give root access cause of trust
<crog> Or, you have a multi user sytem, where each user backs them selves up.
<Cheesehead> So is there a clear use case for this feature?
<yotux> solution 2  couldn't data be encrypted before sent over the wire?  ssh / pgp
<crog> If trust is the issue, encrypting before sending is the only way.
<yotux> use case is clouded slightly
<Cheesehead> Encryption is a great point!
<crog> or if problem is trust in the backup program...  the answer is open source
<yotux> trust to system access is 1st
<crog> find a different tool, or read line-by-line the code
<crog> or "trust" the community
<yotux> solution 2 talks about admin only access data?
<yotux> I find that we are taking on two dragons when we started with on problem then solution introduced 2nd
<yotux> ask for me details
<crog> Yeah - I'm not sure what is being requested
<Cheesehead> When the issues metastasize, I go back to the Rationale and the problem statement
<Cheesehead> Why would the sysdamin use a backup operator/program that they don't fully trust?
<yotux> So if problem is limit sys access then a limited group would work,  let encryption be the users problem
<yotux> Cheesehead: Admins will not use services they can't trust
<Cheesehead> Is this really a problem?
<crog> first line says, "difficult to perform" "without su"
<yotux> No,  user educate
<crog> but when I think admin/backup/restore/anything - that requires root
<crog> and for good reason
<crog> yotux: agreed
<yotux> would it require su if you are in a group that has 777 access?
<Cheesehead> Could this be a user trying to do something, er, un-recommended, and unhappy that the system balks?
<yotux> Cheesehead: yes he could be
<crog> If I'm on a multi-user system, I don' want anyone except me or the admin who has root to have access to my /home
<Cheesehead> crog: I think you nailed it there!
<yotux> crog: I agree with you
<Cheesehead> Ah, I like this one: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27460/
<crog> me too
<crog> I've actually read this one before
<crog> Yes - it already exists.
<crog> should just be made easier to find
<Cheesehead> crog: Why?
<yotux> This has changed in the last two cycles
<yotux> before unity one could click on help -> about
<crog> on my android... Settings --> About phone
<crog> on an application... Help --> About
<Cheesehead> Does anybody run across many help forum requests where the requestor cannot determine their version?
<crog> In an OS (Win)... System Information
<crog> etc.
<crog> I think it's one thing if you need to know 11.04 or Natty
<yotux> I am running ubntu 11.10
<yotux> type help
<crog> but you might be asked - which version?  Which build?
<yotux> it tell me welcome to 11.10
<crog> Maybe you're right - it's a change - something I'm not used to.
<crog> but I had no problem going from gnome to unity
<crog> This seems more like a universal expectation to me.
<yotux> the info display is diff in unity that is all I am saying
<Cheesehead> So in Unity, it's easy?
<yotux> when I am on the desktop and click help about it talks about nautilus
<yotux> unity it is more hidden
<yotux> easier to find apps yes
<yotux> type help the manaul comes up
<yotux> for me its says welcome to 11.10
<Cheesehead> The original problem statement was that it's hard to find basic information about the Ubuntu version installed
<Cheesehead> Is that a problem?
<Cheesehead> Hello, bigbash ! Joining us?
<crog> If it means 2 extra posts in a bug report or forum...
<Cheesehead> Well, in the bugs and forums you have read...did it?
<crog> Cheesehead: good point
<yotux> It not hard unless you want a one click solution
<crog> It perhaps is not important when stacked up against other bugs, ideas, etc.
<crog> but still a good idea.
<Cheesehead> So a wishlist issue?
<crog> And more people have voted on it than many others...\
<crog> Yes.
<Cheesehead> Well, popularity with users does not imply implementation.
<crog> wishlist
<yotux> Cheesehead:  could it be added to the about button in system settings
<yotux> yotux:  thinking out loud
<Cheesehead> If I posted an idea "Hamburgers should be free", it would be popular, but unlikely to happen.
<Cheesehead> yotux: Great idea!
<yotux> I was playing in the new menu for 11.10
<yotux> System has about but doesn't ref ubuntu at this time
<Cheesehead> One issue that pops up is...
<yotux> Its called system info
<Cheesehead> the desire to minimize patches...
<Cheesehead> from upstream.
<Cheesehead> Given a choice, the Desktop team would prefer to build-and-go.
<crog> suggestion: upstream allows branding - so it's just a file ubuntu (or other distro) adds
<crog> doesn't make sense for most apps... but for system info it might
<Cheesehead> True. Then somebody must maintain that branding patch.
<Cheesehead> Canonical doesn;t want their engineers maintaining a lot of patches.
<Cheesehead> When they could be doing more useful work
<Cheesehead> That's one possible reason why it hasn;t already been implemented
<yotux> It easy access in system monitor
<Cheesehead> The flip side of the argument, though, is that it goes to the polish-and-feel of the distro.
<Cheesehead> Yes, I like System Monitor
<Cheesehead> Next up: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27441/
<crog> so does the last one just stay open?  take a pass? is there a process to dispatch of it?
<crog> first - need to state what the problem is we're trying to solve
<Cheesehead> We can close it if we want, but that didn't seem the consensus.
<Cheesehead> We can recommend to the submitter that they offer to create and maintain such a pach for Nautilus.
<yotux> 27441  data control need more info
<crog> Cheesehead: 27460 - I'm not suggesting we close it -  just curious what the process is
<Cheesehead> Or we can leave it open in the hopes that the Technical Board will look at the issue
<crog> Cheesehead: its been open, and not acted on - lots of opinions details
<yotux> cloud storage user has limited control
<crog> Cheesehead: So I supose that's correct - leave it open for someone to consider
<Cheesehead> The TB looks at the top-15-or-so scoring ideas each quarter.
<Cheesehead> They winnow them down to 10, and respond or act upon them.
<crog> 27441 - need to state the problem
<yotux> I have used ubuntu one the admins can purge any data they want
<crog> and storage on the cloud is inherently giving up control of data
<yotux> crog: we agree
<Cheesehead> 2447 - I agree that the problem statement is muddled.
<yotux> Here is another issue
<crog> encryption solves the security or confidence
<yotux> the Music store is in question.  No music player I have ever used has encrypted music or data
<Cheesehead> It's not the music store. That's an error.
<Cheesehead> Good eyes!
<yotux> .wma may have DRM but that is not of use in this case
<Cheesehead> Is this really a problem?
<crog> it's not a problem with ubuntu 1
<crog> it's not a problem - a wishlist/nice to have
<Cheesehead> He wants to add ecryptfs support to the Ubuntu One client so he doesn;t need to bather with manually encrypring/decrypting
<Cheesehead> That's how I see it. Am I far off there?
<yotux> Cheesehead: yes
<yotux> The data is secured by his user name and pass
<crog> I'd maybe suggest doing the encryption as a client-side plugin
<crog> I like DarwnSurvivors ideas on this one too.
<Cheesehead> My first thought was scripting the encrypt/decrypt should be scripted locally...
<Cheesehead> then the client needn;t care about the datatype
<yotux> I agree
<crog> You're right the encryting/decrypt shouldn't be difficult for the end user to need to do manual steps on each file they want to upload
<Cheesehead> Darwin always has a great perspective!
<Cheesehead> So...what should we do with this idea?
<Cheesehead> Ask for clarification? Add a solution? Leave it open?
<yotux> Leave open+
<Cheesehead> (We can do more than one)
<crog> Would it be offensive to re-write it in complete English sentences?
<yotux> crog: LOL
<Cheesehead> Many submitters are not native english speakers
<Cheesehead> We made an editorial decision to let grammar slide in favor of the concepts.
<crog> absolutely - and no problem that its harder for them.
<Cheesehead> I would be *awful* if I tried to write anything in Arabic
<crog> I like the idea of choosing concepts over grammer
<crog> grammar
<yotux> I would rec a two step solution:  recommended user  encrypt and leave open
<crog> I 'm suggesting someone post:  "I think you are suggesting ...  Does that sound right?"
<Cheesehead> We also let people post in *any* language that Google Translate will recognize. Whatever it takes to be clear.
<crog> simply to make it easier for others to be certain their understanding the request
<yotux> Cheesehead: Thanks for the info
<Cheesehead> crog: Great point on clarification
<Cheesehead> The consensus seems to be leave open, clarify, and lean toward user-level encryption.
<crog> Yep
<Cheesehead> So the Ubuntu One part is kind of irrelevant?
<Cheesehead> Could be any online storage?
<crog> imo yes.
<yotux> yes
<crog> but If ubuntu wants to have ubuntu 1 integrated, it could be built in to the client side interface
<Cheesehead> Okay, next:
<Cheesehead> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27415/
<Cheesehead> By the way, THANK YOU for your help and input. It's great to get more perspectives!
<Cheesehead> And you are really helping people.
<crog> On this one, my first thought is, "meh"
 * Cheesehead laughs
<Cheesehead> Does this seem like it's really a problem?
<crog> I know who I am from the background, icon layout, name, etc
<crog> This doesn't help or hinder my usage
<Cheesehead> Judging by the votes in Solution #1, perhaps a lot of voters agree with you
<yotux> I don't see this as a problem
<Cheesehead> User-customization will make a bigger difference than a user-icon?
<yotux> The users name is already displayed
<Cheesehead> Ah, true. I had forgotten
<crog> the rationale says, "this could help more clearly indicate which us is logged in"
<yotux> the icon is generic but the login icome is custom I think
<yotux> I don't think it would,  I think this is not a problem
<yotux> User name is clearly displayed
<crog> yotux: agree
<yotux> its eye candy not functional
<Cheesehead> OK, how about I close this one due to the low vote scores?
<yotux> Also the screenshots are from older ubuntus we not longer will be using that framework
<crog> Sounds good to me
<yotux> Agree
<Cheesehead> Oops, one moment please...
<Cheesehead> Ah, here we go: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/27298/
<Cheesehead> Sorry for the delay. Thunderstorm.
<crog> I agree with the "problem", but not sure on solutions here
<crog> If a process dies in the way described, restarting it probably just means it will die again
<yotux> okay if a process that controls the GUI dies doesn't this make it some type of bug
<Cheesehead> yotux: Well, yes.
<yotux> brainstorm is not the place to report bugs,  if this is the case I would suggest they try and create a bug report
<crog> I'm not familiar enough with apport yet, and the other built-in bug reporting
<crog> but perhaps this is speaking to a need that they be a little more integrated
<yotux> crog:  me either but it could be allot of things
<yotux> drives, unity, compiz, etc
<crog> clearly the submitter experienced a bug
<crog> and is looking for a way for bugs to be less intrusive on the user experience
<yotux> crog: I agree
<yotux> bugs will always make user unhappy,  we need to address bugs and try and get them fixed
<crog> restarting is likely not going to solve anything
<Cheesehead> So is this a workaround to some bug the user experiences?
<Cheesehead> Or is there a real need to monitor/restart long-lived processes?
<crog> but noting that the process died, and doing something about it (instead of just logging in dmesg) might hlep
<crog> help
<crog> if there is a need to monitor/restart specific daemons, then I'd leave that monitoring to the specific application
<Cheesehead> Well, daemons are supposed to be supervised by Upstart, not directly by applications.
<yotux> logging could help solve the problem in the end
<crog> I guess I mean if you're writing something that you want to keep alive, but not writing it as a daemon
<yotux> but logging wil also create more work with more data for devs to fix
<Cheesehead> like, say, gdm.
<Cheesehead> Example of a long-lived non-daemon
<Cheesehead> If the submitter had provided a more specific example, it would be easier to identify if this is a bug workaround.
<crog> he's comparing to a Win experience where explorer just restarts
<yotux> crog I agree
<Cheesehead> crog: I think you're right
<crog> but I'd even argue that explorer just restarting doesn't help solve anything
<Cheesehead> That takes us back to the initial question: Real need, or bug workaround?
<yotux> I would say bug workaround
<yotux> Is brainstorm the place for those workarounds?
<crog> makes it easier to deal with a bug that occurred if you're not going to actually dig into the root caus
<Cheesehead> Not really. The right answer is to fix the bugs so the workarounds are not needed.
<Cheesehead> Workarounds introduce their own bugs, too
<crog> I think the most useful thing in here is 'offer to restart or log out and report to the developers'
<crog> thats why I mentioned apport at the start -
<Cheesehead> Well, if X crashes, it already generates an apport report"
<Cheesehead> And won;t give you any options - you're back to login screen
<crog> So looks like we're thinking it doesn't really belong here
<yotux> I would agree
<crog> redirect to, "thanks, and if you see this behavior, we recommend..."
<Cheesehead> ...enable apport, then reporduce the behavior.
<Cheesehead> How is everybody's brain doing?
<Cheesehead> Feel like you just swam a mile?
<crog> fine... need to help around the house pretty soon here.
<Cheesehead> crog, where are you located?
<crog> I appreciate hearing the different opinions on these....
<crog> Cheesehead: Madison
<crog> Cheesehead: Going to try to join tomorrow bug jam too, if I can get away...
<Cheesehead> I REALLY appreciated getting your opinions!
<Cheesehead> Yeah, the bug jam will work much the same way.
<Cheesehead> You guys were GREAT here. Let your families know I really appreciate their sacrifice!
<crog> Cheesehead: Where are you?
<yotux> Cheesehead:  Thanks for the intro
<Cheesehead> Milwaukee
<yotux> yotux: Portage
<Cheesehead> I hope you liked it, and thanks for coming by!
<Cheesehead> Any suggestions on how to improve for next time?
<yotux> It was interesting
<Cheesehead> There are a lot of possible topics!
<Cheesehead> That's what I like about it
<crog> we just jumped right in, which I think was great
<crog> we made some decisions about wht the next steps should be on some of these
<Cheesehead> Good. That's what I was aiming for!
<yotux> I would agree with crog the lead in time was great
<crog> perhaps a little bit more about the process up front.
<Cheesehead> I thought about more lead-in. If we had some newer folks, I had some text prepared.
<Cheesehead> But you guys really grabbed the ball and ran.
<crog> for example we talked about closing one, but not how it's done.
<Cheesehead> I have to close it. I have permissions to do so.
<crog> I'm assuming you have a different interface to the website
<Cheesehead> A bit different. A few extra tools.
<crog> I was thinking just a little more of "lifecycle of an idea in brainstorm"
<crog> but didn't really need much background (such as purpose/motivation, etc.)
<yotux> crog:  as one joins a team they get more rights
<Cheesehead> Wait...I might have that here...
<crog> yotux: assumed so - and that makes sense.
<Cheesehead> WHAT BRAINSTORM IS: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com . It's an idea-generation website.
<Cheesehead> You bring a specific problem, and users contribute solutions, and vote on the various solutions.
<Cheesehead> Very handy for developers, or for users who identify a problem, but don;t know what to do about it.
<Cheesehead> Every three months, the Ubuntu Technical Board reviews and responds to the 10 highest scoring ideas of the period.
<Cheesehead> WHAT BRAINSTORM IS NOT: It's not a feedback or comment-card like you find in a restaurant
<Cheesehead> "The food was nice, but the table was wobbly. And you should serve ice cream"
<Cheesehead> That submission doesn't help anybody - it's a bug (wobbly table) and a wish (add ice cream) wrapped up together. That's a forum or blog post.
<Cheesehead> We help the user parse out the bug and the wish and submit them separately to the appropriate channels.
<Cheesehead> There we go. Just pretend I made you wade through all that up front.
 * Cheesehead laughs
<crog> got it
<crog> well - thanks again- - gotta go....
<Cheesehead> Thanks for joining!
<Cheesehead> See you tomorrow1
<Cheesehead> !
<yotux> Cheesehead:: thanks for all you help on this,  hope bug jam goes the same way
<Cheesehead> Thanks for all *your* help.
<yotux> I have to go myself.  I am consider joining this team.
<Cheesehead> Mere formality. You already have.
<yotux> okay,  My instrest are bugs and may MOTU
<Cheesehead> Well, then. See you tomorrow, same time, same channel!
<yotux> but will tackle that tomorrow
<yotux> bye
<Cheesehead> #EndEvent
<Cheesehead>  
<Cheesehead> Join us in 21 Hours for the Wisconsin Bug Jam! http://loco.ubuntu.com/events/ubuntu-us-wisconsin/1178/detail/
 * Cheesehead wanders off for a drink in the atrium
<Cheesehead> Brainstorm Jam Logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/03/%23ubuntu-us-wi.html#t16:55
<h00k> hi friends!
<h00k> went well?
<Cheesehead> h00k: Seems so.
<h00k> s as eet
<h00k> sweet
<Cheesehead> You can see it was intense, and lasted the whole three hours
<h00k> that ud awesome
<h00k> is
<Cheesehead> parting words were 'hope the bug jam goes the same way'
<h00k> on my phone, haven't checked the logs yet
<h00k> ! coool
#ubuntu-us-wi 2011-09-04
<bigbash> ping Cheesehead
<Cheesehead> bigbash: pong
<bigbash> I was just going to leave a message for you
<bigbash> I have a favor to ask please
<bigbash> I am being summoned by my family to a baptism tomorrow and most likely won't' be back in time for the bug jam :( Do you think you might be able to be the facilitator/mentor?
<Cheesehead> Consider it done.
<bigbash> I'm not very happy I have to go, I'm still waiting to power to come back on at work so we can get our servers back up
<bigbash> I appreciate it :)
<Cheesehead> Are you asking for a just-in-case? Or do think it's pretty realistic you will be late/absent?
<bigbash> pretty realistic
<Cheesehead> No problem.
<bigbash> I really appreciate it
<Cheesehead> Family time is more important than anonymous internet geeks...
<Cheesehead> ...or so my spouse keeps telling me.
<Cheesehead> I believe her.
<bigbash> ha, that's what my wife and parents said
<Cheesehead> We can geek out on IRC anytime.
<Cheesehead> Family time is rarer and wonderful.
<bigbash> well I'll be reading the logs when I get back so I can learn from the master on how to facilitate a bug jam
<Cheesehead> You'll need to watch a *real* master at work, then. I'm just the guy show showed up and lost the coin toss.
<Cheesehead> /show/who
<Cheesehead> And who apparently cannot spell
<bigbash> I love the analogy
<Cheesehead> If you saw the Brainstorm Jam, you'll see the participants did all the real work
<bigbash> Thanks again, I'm going to head to bed, up early to check on the power situation for work before I get ready and head down to Milwaukee
<Cheesehead> G'night
<bigbash> I started reading the logs, but I didn't finish had to go to inlaws
<bigbash> night everyone
<Cheesehead> Event Reminder: Wisconsin LoCo is running an IRC Bug Jam, Sunday 1700 UTC (four hours from now), in this channel. Great training opportunity for people new to bugs. If you have a favorite bug, bring it along!
<Cheesehead> Test: Bug 828346
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 828346 in Ubuntu "unable to use volume control and brightness control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828346
<Cheesehead> heh heh heh
<trinikrono> bug jam?
<trinikrono> i think i am 2 hours early lol
<Cheesehead> trinikrono: Indeed, 1:42 from now
<lostson>  hope you have a good turnout and squash some bugs
<Cheesehead> lostson: Thanks
<Cheesehead> Event Reminder: Bug Jam in this channel in 0:27
<yotux> Cheesehead:  Thanks,  are we going to use two channels or just one like yesterday
<Cheesehead> yotux: Let's start with one, and spread out as-needed
<yotux> Cheesehead: okay
<Cheesehead> We'll need to see how many new-to-bugs participants we have, and how many experienced-jump-right-in folks
<yotux> Cheesehead: I understand it was fun yesterday,  bug are a little more scary to mean.  I am printing the triage guide at the moment to go over again
<yotux> sorry I can't seem to type this morning  bugs are scary to me
<Cheesehead> That's what makes the group-format nice. Nobody needs to know everything, and there's time to look stuff up
<Cheesehead> ...and use the bathroom and eat lunch, etc
<ashams> yotux: Hi, I never heared about such guide "the triage guide"
<Cheesehead> ashams: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage
<Cheesehead> You don't know about it until somebody tells you.
<yotux> ashams:  as cheeshead said https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToTriage/
<EgyParadox> did the ugj start?
<Cheesehead> Not really, we're all just eager!
 * Cheesehead goes to #ubuntu-bugs to give the 5-minute warning
<ashams> Cheesehead: thanx, I assumed they finally made a consistent PDF :D
<yotux> ashams:  it fits nicely into 10 pgs
<yotux> I used lib office to paste and print
<Cheesehead> The types of bugs change over time, so it's a dynamic guide.
<Cheesehead> A few years ago, there were a lot more X and pulseaudio and printing bugs
<trinikrono> i just got hggh to edit it
<trinikrono> so it has a new piece in the section invaliditing
<Cheesehead> trinikrono: Great! That's changed since I last invalidated a bug...I learn more about bugs each time I touch one.
<Cheesehead> ..
<Cheesehead> Hello, everyone here for the Wisconsin Bug Jam.
<Cheesehead> Activity in this channel is logged - you can get the logs at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/04/%23ubuntu-us-wi
<Cheesehead> All abilities are welcome, no experience necessary!
<Cheesehead> ..
<Cheesehead> Let's see how many participants we have here. Could everyone active in this channel please give a response?
<trinikrono> +1
<yotux> Here +2
 * Cheesehead laughs
<Cheesehead> I know we have more than that. Lag, perhaps.
<Cheesehead> Everybody else, feel free to jump in!
<ashams> o/
<Cheesehead> There are a few goals here today:
<Cheesehead> 1) Meet new people and have fun
<Cheesehead> 2) If you brought a bug along, work it together
<Cheesehead> 3) Learn how to Triage some of the wide variety of bugs
<Cheesehead> 4) If you're new to bugs, learn the life cycle of bugs, the tools, and where to begin
<Cheesehead> You *don't* need to be a bug guru already! The great thing about working together is that everybody learns
<Cheesehead> ..
<Cheesehead> SETTING UP
<Cheesehead> A couple questions to gauge the expertise level in the room - feel free to throw out answers:
<Cheesehead> Question: Did anybody bring a favorite bug that they want to work?
<Cheesehead> Question: Does anybody here consider themselves pretty experienced with any kind of bugs?
<Cheesehead> Question: Is anybody here interested in any particular kind of bug?
<trinikrono> i just applied to bug control
<trinikrono> o.o
<yotux> didn't bring a bug,  new / some apport experience, open minded
 * trinikrono goes looking for a bug
<Cheesehead> ashams: How much bug experience do you want to have?
<ashams> Cheesehead: a lot
<Cheesehead> All right! I can just go sleep on the couch then!
<Cheesehead> Does anyone want to see the text on (simplified) bug-life-cycle?
<Cheesehead> Does anyone not know what a Launchpad Account is?
<Cheesehead> Everyone ready to jump in the pool? (Shallow end first)
<ashams> Cheesehead: Have a nice dreams :D
<yotux> I know what a lauchpad account is
<trinikrono> go ahead
<Cheesehead> Let's start with an easy one: Bug 828346
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 828346 in Ubuntu "unable to use volume control and brightness control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828346
<Cheesehead> Jump in and share your thoughts.
<trinikrono> ok
<Cheesehead> We'll reach a consensus before acting
 * trinikrono raises hand
<Cheesehead> trinikrono: go ahead anytime
<trinikrono> no apport info!
<Cheesehead> Is it a crash?
<Cheesehead> (apport usually only generates a report during a crash)
<yotux> seems the package is wrong
<Cheesehead> yotux: Good eyes!
<Cheesehead> It indeed lacks a package!
<Cheesehead> What else?
<ashams> lacks files
<yotux> also the doc bar is not directly controlled by nvidia package.
<Cheesehead> yotux: Great spotting!
<yotux> what package did the user install?
<Cheesehead> Perhaps we have an inexperienced reporter?
<yotux> I would ask what package was installed
<Cheesehead> What package would an inexperienced user claim 'recommends' a proprietary video driver?
<yotux> I would assume this
<yotux> but we can't send assumptions to devs / upstream
<trinikrono> jockey?
<Cheesehead> trinikrono: Yes!
<yotux> I would says ask for me info.  wait a while and then possible invalid
<Cheesehead> Possible.
<Cheesehead> Let's explore Jockey for a second.
<Cheesehead> Imagine you are the user.
<Cheesehead> Jockey tells you to install NVIDAI proprietary
<Cheesehead> You restart, and video is great...
<Cheesehead> But now your FN-hotkeys  stop working
<Cheesehead> Could this be what the user is trying to say?
<yotux> It could be,   the screen shot makes it look like even gui stopped working
<Cheesehead> trinikrono, ashams: What do you think?
<trinikrono> i think
<trinikrono> it sounds the same
<trinikrono> but wont the nvidia package be at fault
<trinikrono> and not jockey?
<ashams> Cheesehead: don't know, maybe Xorg needs reconfig?
<Cheesehead> trinikrono: Excellent point!
<Cheesehead> How can we help the user narrow the possible problems?
<trinikrono> try the nouveo driver :D
<Cheesehead> Let's try something else - somebody try a quick Google search for the keywords. See if any similar complaints pop up.
<Cheesehead> SOmebody else, try searching the Launchpad bugs, see if this might be a duplicate of an already-reported issue
<trinikrono> you mean to search for similar bugs
<Cheesehead> trinikrono: Correct!
<ashams> Cheesehead: Why did he think that changing system name would help?
<trinikrono> yes i wondered about that also
<Cheesehead> ashams: People do all kinds of strange stuff.
 * trinikrono needs to goto the grocery for 20mins brb sorry!
<Cheesehead> trinikrono: See you back soon!
<Cheesehead> When I have a problem, I do strange stuff, too.
<Cheesehead> Then, later, I wonder - why did I do that?
<Cheesehead> Another great place to check is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
<Cheesehead> to see if any similar class of bugs already has a prepared response
<yotux> I have something close bug 128452
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 128452 in gnome-power-manager (Ubuntu) "brightness control usability issues." [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/128452
 * Cheesehead is reading it...
<ashams> Cheesehead: found a lot on lp, but none of them the same as ours
<Cheesehead> Okay, so seems like nothing close enough to be considered a duplicate yet.
<Cheesehead> What's your impression - is this really a bug? Or is it a support request?
<yotux> I would lean toward support
<ashams> Support reques
<ashams> request*
<ashams> is it in acpi pkg?
<Cheesehead> Could it be a bug in the NVIDIA driver?
<Cheesehead> Or int he way the kernel uses the driver?
<ashams> Nvidia works fine
<ashams> when the Nvidia got installed it changed some config
<ashams> maybe in xorg or acpi I assume!
<Cheesehead> So perhaps he should revert to the open driver and see if the issue goes away?
<Cheesehead> ashams: Excellent point!
<yotux> agree
<ashams> let's order him to uninstall Nvidia then install open driver
 * ashams brb after 10 mins, sorry
<Cheesehead> ashams: See you back in 10
<Cheesehead> !
<Cheesehead> (oh, no, everybody's leaving!)
 * Cheesehead laughs
<yotux> Sorry I'm still here
<Cheesehead> Well, what do you think we ought to do with the poor fellow?
<yotux> I would say he need to revert to open source driver
<yotux> See if this help out
<yotux> I also noticed he install a custom doc bar on the button
<Cheesehead> I missed that!
<yotux> Other software could be effecting configs.  Start with open source driver
<yotux> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/77473344/Screenshot-3.png
<yotux> Volume doesn't appear disabled just muted
<Cheesehead> He heh. A doc bar that undoes all the Unity design work...
<Cheesehead> hi, komputes!
<komputes> hi Cheesehead
<Cheesehead> we were just admiring bug 828346
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 828346 in Ubuntu "unable to use volume control and brightness control" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828346
<Cheesehead> yotux: Do you think it's possible that one of tose other cusomizations may be trapping the FN-keys?
<yotux> Cheesehead: I not sure how the dock bar works
<komputes> Cheesehead: looking...
<yotux> Cheesehead:  it could change the way gnome interacts
<Cheesehead> Nor I. If it were my system, I would revert to working, and install one-at-a-time untill it breaks...
<Cheesehead> A few iterations in different order until I caould isolate the culprit
<yotux> Cheesehead: I would agree
<Cheesehead> ...assuming that installing something really is the culprit
<yotux> Cheesehead:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CairoDock
<yotux> looks like this is the doc bar he installed
<komputes> Cheesehead: would be useful to get the hardware info. assign to linux and ask for apprt-collect bugnumber
<Cheesehead> komputes: Is there a clue that this is a kernel issue?
<komputes> Cheesehead: I was saying that just to get the hardware info, in fact these should be two seperate bugs AFAICT
<Cheesehead> komputes: Whew. I questioned my grip on reality there for a moment!
<yotux> so we need more info to proceed
<yotux> I would say leave user a comment for more info,  possible even give instruction on how to get more info
<Cheesehead> yotux: Agreed. I always try to hand-hold the user along the next step if more info is needed.
<Cheesehead> If the user is new to the process (and who han;t been?), then how are they supposed to knw?
<yotux> I myself am not sure what commands to tell him to run
<yotux> I use apport to report most / all of my bugs
<komputes> it's highly likely this is hardware specific
<Cheesehead> Well, for the hardware data collection, I suppose 'apport-collect 828346'
<Cheesehead> komputes: Do you think it's worthwhile for the user to check for an install conflict? The NVIDIA driver? Cairo-dock?
<komputes> ask for apport info, mark incomplete.
<komputes> and subscribe for the follow-up
<crog> Cheesehead: hey there
<Cheesehead> crog: Welcome!
<Cheesehead> crog: Just arrived? Or been following?
<crog> just arrived, but read everything up to now...
<komputes> I would check (if the user has many customizations) to see if it's reproducable in a neutreal testing environment such as a USB installation or LiveCD (latter causing issues if testing nvidia binary)
<Cheesehead> So apport info, check for reproducability, mark incomplete, assign to Linux, subscribe for follow-up?
<Cheesehead> ...advise submitter to check for reproducability...
<yotux> Cheesehead:  agree
<crog> newbie question:  Does apport help if there wasn't a crash?
<Cheesehead> Apport can be run manually
<Cheesehead> It helps in some situations other than crashes
<Cheesehead> Like gathering hardware info
<Cheesehead> Ready for the next one?
<crog> got it - we need to ask the submitter to run it on his machine, and we'll get config details....
<Cheesehead> ..
<Cheesehead> Next: Bug 831647
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 831647 in Ubuntu "Unable to change language from System settings" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/831647
<Cheesehead> This seems like a pretty easy one at first glance.
<ashams> Cheesehead: Hi again, Ready for the next one
<Cheesehead> Welcome back! We're admiring Bug 831647
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 831647 in Ubuntu "Unable to change language from System settings" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/831647
<crog> 3rd posted text file: couple local settings are set to gl_ES, but LANG still shows en_US.
<crog> Is next step to try an reproduce?  (or possibly some searching first?)
<yotux> first set would be to reproduce
<ashams> I think that he's not using the right way, so let's advice him first
<crog> also first sentence says: "trying to set language, and havn't found a proper way"
<crog> So probably look for documentatoin...
<yotux> also this is alpha distro so how important is this
<yotux> suggest doc,  but doc may not be done yet if doc team hasn't gotten to it
<Cheesehead> crog: I think you found a vital piece of evidence in that text file.
<Cheesehead> Many locale settings were changed, but the system language was still en_us, not gl_es
<yotux> I now see that
<crog> regarding docs - I suspect something like "how to change your language" doesn't really change much from version to version
<crog> community docs:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SwitchingLanguages
<Cheesehead> I don't see the language-support-gl package in his list of installed packages
<crog> This says.... this language will be used for newlyl created users, but not for your future sessions.
<crog> To change for your next session, you need to change it from your login screen.
<crog> I have 11.10 in a virtual machine.  Is it worth taking the time to follow these steps and see if there are any problems?
<yotux> the names have changed and the structure has changed also
<crog> Or should we just point the user to this wiki page?
<yotux> I would say refer to wiki
<yotux> its easy to get to the right place from there
<yotux> system settings -> lang. support
<yotux> This is the new unity was
<Cheesehead> Launchpad has a feature to convert support requests into Launchpad Answers
<yotux> was = way sorry
<yotux> I read something about that
<Cheesehead> Right-hand-column: Convert to a question
<crog> Cheesehead: Yeah - seems like that's the way to go..
<yotux> I agree
<Cheesehead> So, the consensus is convert to a Launchpad Question, and the answer explains and points to the wiki?
<yotux> Cheesehead:  since the wikik direction are from back in 2009 do we also need to make a doc request to update?
<ashams> Cheesehead: wait
<ashams> we need to ask him to use the right way before converting to a request
<ashams> we're not sure if it's abug of not
<Cheesehead> yotux: Most wiki updates are user-created. So you and I can do that.
<Cheesehead> ashams: That's an excellent point!
<crog> before updating wiki, I'd verify the steps, and try out another language for a session or two.
<Cheesehead> crog: Definitely!
<ashams> crog: gr8
<Cheesehead> So the consensus is to:
<Cheesehead> 1) Ask the user to try it the right way - confirm if it's a bug or not
<Cheesehead> 2) If it's not a bug, convert to a question
<Cheesehead> 3) Spend a bit of time updating the Wiki (submitter may want to help?)
 * ashams agrees
<Cheesehead> 4) Subscribe to the bug for follow-up, of course
<Cheesehead> Any final comments on this bug?
<Cheesehead> ..
<crog> nope - sounds good
<ashams> nope, sounds very good
<Cheesehead> Here's one I had a second look at: Bug 86896
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 86896 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt's daily cron job locks the apt lists against package managers" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/86896
<Cheesehead> Before trying to figure out the problem...
<Cheesehead> ...see if there is anything strange going on.
<crog> submitter changed to confirmed...
<Cheesehead> crog: Yes indeed. Confirmiong your own bug is a big no-no
<crog> other than that - this is for Jaunty - need to have him try on a current version
<crog> I havne't had a chance to review the Triage guide in full, but I'd look for a way to mark it invalid
<crog> If it's a problem, it can be resubmitted.
<Cheesehead> Yeah, it's 4 years old.
<Cheesehead> But, um...what's the problem?
<crog> well, since you said not to look at that yet...  (jk)
<ashams> Why would apt-get hang, bad connection, broken packages, a crash?
<crog> might it be waiting for a lock as well?
<crog> ahhh - any in his post marked "repeating"
<crog> His apt is looking for a feisty file, and not finding it.
<Cheesehead> crog: AWESOME spotting!
<Cheesehead> Is this really a bug at all?
<crog> small chance it could be, but most likely a confirguration issue
<crog> man... irc lets through a whole lot more typos and mispellings than email.
<Cheesehead> crog: Sure does.
<ashams> crog: Excellent
<ashams> It is a bug
<crog> I don't know that it's a bug
<ashams> because apt isn't updated by system update
<Cheesehead> Is this issue (bug or misconfiguration) going to be reproducable?
<ashams> I think it's not a misconfig, because it was made auto
<crog> it's logging the reason
<crog> ashams: do we know that?
<ashams> crog: Not sure :P
<crog> Cheesehead: not on those versions
<Cheesehead> Shouldn't /var/lib/apt/lists be cleaned during a release-upgrade?
 * ashams has no idea
<crog> Cheesehead: perhaps... Again, it maybe something that has already been fixed.
<crog> may also be that apt was fine, and there was a power outage when he upgraded from Feisty to Jaunty
<Cheesehead> Or some other non-critical error that prevented the cleaning
<crog> Someone with the expertise could re-read through the install scripts to see whether such a cleanup step exists
<crog> to confirm whether it's a bug.
<crog> brb...
<Cheesehead> Since it's 4 years old, should we check with the submitter to see if it's still a issue?
<ashams> Cheesehead: yep
<Cheesehead> A response like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses#Old_untouched_bugs ?
<Cheesehead> and mark incomplete, and subscribe to the bug for follow-up?
<ashams> Cheesehead: I hate those tedious responses
<Cheesehead> ashams: They do have their place.
<ashams> Cheesehead: copy-n-paste reponses and reporters will fly away ;)
<Cheesehead> It's nice to know that the pre-written response is polite, appropriate for the situation, and covers most use cases. You can always personalize it more.
<Cheesehead> Perhaps "I've been looking this over, and I noticed that... and then a second paragraph incorparating the pre-written response."
<Cheesehead> ashams: Great point - sometimes the pre-written response is mistaken nor not-caring.
<Cheesehead> /nor/for
<Cheesehead> I have seen copy-n-paste responses used inappropriately, too.
<ashams> Cheesehead: I usually love to refine them before replying
<ashams> Cheesehead: let's focus on triage :D
<Cheesehead> Everyone having fun?
<Cheesehead> Anyone learning anything?
<crog> yep
<crog> yep
<ashams> yep, a lot
<Cheesehead> How about Next: Bug 340417
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 340417 in cron (Ubuntu) "cron crashed with SIGSEGV in __kernel_vsyscall()" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340417
<yotux> yeah
<Cheesehead> Here you see apport in action on a crash.
<ashams> bad description:(
<Cheesehead> ashams: What's bad about it?
<ashams> Cheesehead: 1 line description, strange
<Cheesehead> ashams: It can be hard to describe what's important, especially if you are too close ot the problem
<Cheesehead> /ot/to
 * ashams convinced
<Cheesehead> In this case, when you get to the comments, you can see a triager has already been here.
<crog> I think jdstrand has already asked the important questions
<ashams> yeah, and no response since that
<crog> based on the stacktrace - looks like it's mostly system calls
<crog> Could be cron
<crog> Could be kernel
<crog> could be hard-ware dependant
<Cheesehead> Question: When a triager asks a question, what change should you make to the bug to indicate that a reply is expected?
<crog> It says this is in a virtual machine - so could be that
<ashams> if HW-dependent, itmight be the VM
<ashams> crog: bingo
<Cheesehead> Anyone know how to mark a bug?
<crog> Cheesehead: Change status to Incomplete...
<Cheesehead> crog: ding ding ding!
<crog> so for this one, we probbaly just do that and move on.
<Cheesehead> That's right. So jdstrand didn't mark the bug Incomplete.
<Cheesehead> What can we do about it?
<Cheesehead> (Triage is all about people, and people make mistakes all the time. Just look at my spelling!)
<crog> I think we should just mark the bug and go on...
<ashams> YES
<crog> we could (maybe should) send jdstrand an email
<ashams> crog: why, he already did his job
<Cheesehead> Or, perhaps, jump into #ubuntu-bugs, and see if he's there?
<crog> I probably wouldn't
<ashams> may be we need to remind the reporter
<crog> because not everyone likes to see their errors pointed out.
<crog> But... if we don't let them know, they may continue missing this important step.
<ashams> 9.04 is almost at EOL
<Cheesehead> "jdstrand: On bug 340417, is it okay if I mark the bug Incomplete?"
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 340417 in cron (Ubuntu) "cron crashed with SIGSEGV in __kernel_vsyscall()" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340417
 * trinikrono back :D
<Cheesehead> welcome back!
<Cheesehead> I generally recommend checking with a previous triager before trying to redo their work
<Cheesehead> We have all been in a situation where two teachers try to teach the same thing...
<crog> Cheesehead: Yes, Jamie is in that channel now - it's a good idea!
<Cheesehead> and step all over each other.
<Cheesehead> Or a restaurant or store where two people interfere with each other and give you (the customer) a bad experience
<Cheesehead> and we have all had some work partner who made *more* work for us instead of less
<Cheesehead> I predict 95% chance that jdstrand doesn;t remember this bug and has not problem with us going ahead and marking it incomplete...
<crog> Cheesehead: a big factor is if you know the person...
<Cheesehead> But in the Ubuntu community it's still polite to ask and check first
<crog> if youre on the same page, it's probably find to just go ahead.
<Cheesehead> crog: Well, now you'll know him.
<crog> re: asking first - yes, great idea
<crog> doh!
<Cheesehead> heh heh. I just left a message fro crog in #ubuntu-bugs
<trinikrono> lol
<trinikrono> so what are we working on now
<trinikrono> i see alot went on
<Cheesehead> We're wrapping up 340417
<crog> we're ready for another one, right?
<Cheesehead> Is the consesnsus to check with jdstrand, then invalidate the bug?
<Cheesehead> /invalidate/inccomplete
<crog> righto
<ashams> it's just a mistake, what can it be else?
<ashams> jdstrand: made a simple mistake, no more, I assume
<Cheesehead> Agreed, I'm sure it's a mistake. But it's polite to ask.
<trinikrono> i think better to just mark it incomplete
<trinikrono> unless you know jdstrand personally
<Cheesehead> Is there a hurry? It's been open a year?
<Cheesehead> I don't know jdstrand personally.
<crog> Cheesehead: right, but if you don' change it, it will be another year
<ashams> We can just reply again and mark it incomplete, thus we cover jdstrand ;)
<trinikrono> it looks like it should of been marked incomplete in the first place
<trinikrono> since it was questions he asked
<Cheesehead> One more moment on this issue - this is actually pretty important.
<trinikrono> i think the best thing
<Cheesehead> In this case, I go back to the Code of Conduct
<trinikrono> is to ask if the user still experiences the problem
<ashams> what CoC can do?
<Cheesehead> trinikrono: That's also a valid course of action.
<ashams> can Coc do?*
<Cheesehead> The Code of Conduct: Patience and Respect
<Cheesehead> We don;t know the culture of either the submitter or jdstrand,
<Cheesehead> so we should be as polite as possible
<Cheesehead> There are cultures where it's okay to dive in (India), and other where it's not (Japan)
<ashams> but if we told him about such a mistake, we may cause Embarrassment
<Cheesehead> We can tell him in an indirect way, by asking if he approves this course of action.
<Cheesehead> Every culture has a way of pointing out mistakes. Me must simply use an apprporate way
<crog> Cheesehead: yes - your approach @ 13:45 is the best approach. In this case we know how to reach them.
<Cheesehead> Ooh, lots of mispellings there!
<crog> What if we didn't?  leave it open?
<crog> I suspect this is not a huge important bug, or it would have been dealt with sooner.
<Cheesehead> If we simply closed it, then we might be making extra wlor for somebody else.
<crog> But a bug that sits in limbo doesn't healp anyone
<Cheesehead> /wlor/work
<crog> No - don't close it.
<crog> make a best effort to ask first, and then mark incomplete
<Cheesehead> crog: Agreed.
<ashams> crog: I agree too
<ashams> consensus ?
<Cheesehead> We all make mistakes. We all want to be told nicely about them. We all want to improve.
<Cheesehead> Consensus: Contact jdstrand, then makr Incomplete?
 * Cheesehead curses his fumbly fingers
 * Cheesehead laughs
<crog> y
<Cheesehead> Next: Bug 83389
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 83389 in htdig (Ubuntu) "weekly cron job fails" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/83389
<Cheesehead> (Yes, a cron theme today)
<Cheesehead> Is anyone unfamiliar with the apt-cache commands?
<crog> eckhofer confirmed the bug, but the status is not confirmed
<crog> Cheesehead: I am
<crog> (unfamilar)
<Cheesehead> crog: Good spotting of confirmation
<Cheesehead> apt-cache is an incredibly handy little utility
<Cheesehead> pop open a terminal and do a 'apt-cache search firefox'
<Cheesehead> It will show you every package in the cache with the word firefox in the title or description
<Cheesehead> Then, try apt-cache show firefox for the database entry for the package
<Cheesehead> including description and dependencies
<Cheesehead> Since it's all text, it's greppable (very handy)
<Cheesehead> In this bug, do the comments indicate that we seem to have a missing dependency?
<crog> right -  but I'd need to install htdig to check this.
<Cheesehead> no, you just need apt-cache
<crog> or I know synaptic lists the dependancies, so I'd probably go there.
<crog> yeah - I see...
<crog> thanks
<Cheesehead> apt-cache and synaptic pull from the same source.
<Cheesehead> Try 'apt-cache depends htdig'
<crog> awesome tool then
<Cheesehead> And then try 'apt-cache rdepends htdig', too.
<Cheesehead> Very handy for looking for something specific, like packaged that handle dotty files: 'apt-cache search dotty'
<Cheesehead> So, what are the current lockfile dependencies for htdig?
<crog> the dependency is listed - so the problems' likely already fixed
<Cheesehead> ashams: What do you think?
<crog> Id' ask them to try again on a current version
<Cheesehead> trinikrono: Any opinion?
<crog> or better - track down the specific version that contains the fix
<Cheesehead> crog: http://changelogs.ubuntu/com
<Cheesehead> yotux: Still with us?
<ashams> Cheesehead: I don't know why you check deps?
<Cheesehead> ashams: Becasue of this comment: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/htdig/+bug/83389/comments/3
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 83389 in htdig (Ubuntu) "weekly cron job fails" [Low,New]
<crog> ashams: the person that said they confirmed specifically mentioned that was the cause of the problem - a missing dependency
<Cheesehead> But then they didn't do the next step...
<Cheesehead> What is the next step?
<crog> I think we want to assume they're correct - though its possible the submitter and confirmer are not looking at exactly the same problem, it's most likly the case
<ashams> Cheesehead: Yeah, now I see, thanks :D
<Cheesehead> ashams: That's way we do this together!
<ashams> but why the daily runs when weekly does?
<Cheesehead> Great question!
<Cheesehead> Take a look at your crontabs. When do your daily and weekly run?
<Cheesehead> One day each week, mine run 22 minutes apart.
<Cheesehead> The daily has 22 minutes to finish before weekly runs.
<ashams> yeah!
<Cheesehead> In this case, weekly cannot create a lockfile.
<Cheesehead> Normally, that should happen only if daily is still running.
<ashams> I see
<Cheesehead> Anacron will also affect it
<crog> Cheesehead: you mentioned http://changelogs.ubuntu.com
<crog> I think it was faster to go to
<crog> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/htdig/+changelog
<crog> unless there's a good way to search  the changlogs site
<Cheesehead> ashams: If you turn oun your computer, sometime around when they bothe run, anacron will reschedule them so they don;t try to run at the same time.
<crog> This was fixed in feisty
<Cheesehead> crog: Great point! I never though of that!
<crog> closed but #364022
<Cheesehead> Bug 346022
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 346022 in Whyteboard "Fill tool doesn't get saved" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/346022
<Cheesehead> Bug 364022
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 364022 in nautilus (Ubuntu) "can not preview thumbnail of media file in nautilus" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364022
<crog> I mean closes bug #  yeah, you know
<Cheesehead> Was that a gnome bug?
<crog> maybe a typo in the bug number in the change log?
<ashams> Cheesehead: you are brilliant :D
 * ashams brb in 10 mins, sorry :(
<Cheesehead> No, I'm just the guy who showed up. You should meet my brother. *He's* incredible.
<crog> if we could find the bug it really fixes, we could mark as duplicate, link them, close this one
<crog> Or... just mark this as fix released.
<Cheesehead> crog: Exactly
 * Cheesehead is cruising, looking for that bug
<crog> Cheesehead: might the bug number in the change log be an upstream number, or is that a Ubuntu-specific thing?
<Cheesehead> I googled the string "htdig now depends on lockfile-progs"
<Cheesehead> It's a Debian bug number
<Cheesehead> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=364022
<lubotu1> Debian bug 364022 in htdig "should depend on lockfile-progs because of /etc/cron.weekly/htdig" [Serious,Fixed]
<Cheesehead> Another option is to upstream thi bug to Debian.
<Cheesehead> Launchpad will figure out that it's fixed and close the bug for us.
<crog> nice
<Cheesehead> Changelog link (for reference): https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/htdig/1:3.2.0b6-1
<EgyParadox> Bug 1
<Cheesehead> EgyParadox: Hello!
<EgyParadox> Hii
<EgyParadox> Hi*
<Cheesehead> Funny that the 'bot didn;t pick it up
<Cheesehead> Bug #1
<EgyParadox> yeah lol
<Cheesehead> Bug #0001
<EgyParadox> the most important bug I believe
<Cheesehead> Oh, well.
<Cheesehead> True, working on it...
<EgyParadox> Does anybody have issues with the document viewer?
<EgyParadox> oneriic
<Cheesehead> Well, mine doesn't make me a sandwich.
<Cheesehead> But mine's not 11.10
<Cheesehead> What sorts of problems?
<ashams> Cheesehead: pick a bug for evince?
<Cheesehead> Okay, one moment...
<EgyParadox> it turns out the files are corrupt :S
<Cheesehead> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evince
<ashams> EgyParadox: it might be the doc itself
<Cheesehead> EgyParadox: Do they open in other viewers? Or older versions?
<EgyParadox> nope
<ashams> EgyParadox: Files relly corrupted
<ashams> really*
<Cheesehead> Here we are: Bug 287646
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 287646 in evince (Ubuntu) "Default window size is unhelpfully small" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/287646
<Cheesehead> (I like that bot)
<Cheesehead> You can see that we haven;t even *touched* real traiging, we're still just wading through non-bugs, and old, un-followed-up stuff
<Cheesehead> That's why it's considered good practice to subscribe to the bugs you work, and follow up on them
<Cheesehead> So nobody comes along a year or three later and asks "Why is this still open?"
<Cheesehead> You can see that following up on bugs is a weakness in our community.
<crog> I'm not even seeing what the problem is...
<Cheesehead> EgyParadox, ashams: What do you think?
<ashams> not evince at all
<Cheesehead> What could it be?
<ashams> compiz
<ashams> bug 730495 is fixed, we should ask reporter if it still exists
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 730495 in compiz (Ubuntu) "unity-window-decorator doesn't start on secondary X session" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/730495
<Cheesehead> Commets #5 and #6 on that blocking bug seem related to this problem
<Cheesehead> Agreed that asking the submitter if it's still an issue is the way to go.
<Cheesehead> But why didn't the last triager (Martin Wildam) do that?
<Cheesehead> Any ideas on why our bug was left hanging?
<crog> as i read the description, and see the screenshot - i think it's not a bug
<Cheesehead> Also, take a look at the original report date
<Cheesehead> crog: What do you think it is?
<crog> Cheesehead: ??  user expectation?
<crog> re: reported dates 08/intrepid... "same behavior in natty 2011"
<Cheesehead> In Ubuntu, behavior that is clearly wrong or unexpected can be safely considered a bug.
<Cheesehead> The developer didn't intend for the evince window to be unusably small
<ashams> mwildam is not a bug triager, probably he didn't know what to do
<crog> I'm still not seeing it - even zooming in on the screenshot - where is the "small unreadable" evince?
<Cheesehead> ashams: Good spot! He was probably new, and untrained.
<Cheesehead> ashams: Lots of new, untrained people hanging around, and he perhaps didn't ask for advice in #ubuntu-bugs
<crog> agree w/ ashams
<ashams> I just checked his lp profile, https://launchpad.net/~mwildam
<ashams> he's not amember of bugsquad
<ashams> :P
<ashams> may be GreaseMonkey scripts can help on this
<Cheesehead> When you run across somebody like this, interested but unskilled...
<Cheesehead> we have all been in that position, too.
<Cheesehead> And we will see many more as Ubuntu grows
<ashams> yeah, just had to
<Cheesehead> What can we do about this bug?
<ashams> https://launchpad.net/launchpad-gm-scripts does the job every time i need to know some about reporters/commenters
<Cheesehead> Yes it does!
<Cheesehead> You can also just click on their name.
<ashams> Cheesehead: If we're sure it's a dup of bug 730495, let's just mark it
<lubotu1> Launchpad bug 730495 in compiz (Ubuntu) "unity-window-decorator doesn't start on secondary X session" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/730495
<Cheesehead> It may not be a dupe.
<Cheesehead> Or, rather, I am not skilled enough to say that it's a dupe.
<ashams> so...
<Cheesehead> We could ask in #ubuntu-bugs if they think the two are dupes
<ashams> nice idea, let's do it
<ashams> ok?
<Cheesehead> ashams: Go for it!
<Cheesehead> ..
<Cheesehead> Whoa! Look at the time!
<Cheesehead> Has everyone had a good time?
<Cheesehead> Learned anything?
<crog> much! - thanks Cheesehead
<ashams> MUCH
<Cheesehead> crog: What do you think of bugs now?
<Cheesehead> I hope you got something out of it.
<ashams> Cheesehead: Thank you very nuch :D
<crog> yes indeed
<Cheesehead> ashams: Thanks for coming by and contributing so much!
<ashams> Cheesehead: :D
<ashams> crog: :D
<Cheesehead> crog: Thanks for SIX HOURS of your holiday weekend!
<crog> 5 1/2
<crog> and as you say - no work tomorrow!!!
<ashams> thanks all
<Cheesehead> Thanks so much for a successful bug jam!
<Cheesehead> #endevent!
 * Cheesehead heads out to the atrium for a drink
<ashams> Cheesehead: go to #ubuntu-bugs
<Cheesehead> ashams: I saw
<Cheesehead> I'll contact the previous triager, and ask the original submitter if it's still an issue.
<ashams> Cheesehead: correct step
<ashams> good luck
<Cheesehead> You saw that the #ubuntu-bugs people are friendly and helpful.
<Cheesehead> A great resource when you get stuck!
<Cheesehead> komputes, trinkono, crog, ashams, EgyParadox, yotux: Thanks for coming by, contributing, and making this jam a success!
<komputes> woohoo \0/
<ashams> Cheesehead: thanks to you
<crog> yeah - thanks a bunch
<EgyParadox> thanks alot :D
<EgyParadox> when will the ubj end?
<ashams> It have just ended
<EgyParadox> globally?
<Cheesehead> Philospohy: Does anything ever truly end?
<Cheesehead> (not including hardware warranties, which really do end)
<EgyParadox> I mean
<crog> ubj event site says Sept 2-4
<crog> The WI loco event was today from 12-3pm (CST).
<EgyParadox> The Ubuntu Global Jam is an incredible opportunity for the Ubuntu community to unite together around the weekend of 2 - 4 September 2011
<EgyParadox> yeah
<EgyParadox> oh ok
<crog> I think EgyParadox  is asking if we're done in our channel... is there someplace else he can help out?
<crog> Since the weekend isn't over yet...
<crog> I don't know the answer...
<crog> or maybe that's not what you were asking.
<ashams> EgyParadox: In Egypt, we still have today, sept 4th, to do it again ;)
<ashams> EgyParadox: 1 1/2 hrs left
<Cheesehead> Hey, you don't need me. You guys did all the work anyway!
<trinikrono>   thanks for having us :D
 * Cheesehead goes to start preparing dinner for the family
<trinikrono> not bread and cheese i hope
<Cheesehead> September, so the in-deason foods are grilled corn and hamburgers.
<Cheesehead> /deason/season
<ashams> Cheesehead: Bon a Petit
<ashams> bye guys, I had a real great time with you :D
<ashams> Thanks for the gr8 session
<EgyParadox> Cheesehead: Do you manage any projects on launchpad?
<Cheesehead> EgyParadox: I do not. Why?
<EgyParadox> just asking
<Cheesehead> I spend quite a bit of time over at Brainstorm...
<EgyParadox> brainstorm?
<Cheesehead> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com
<Cheesehead> The I-have-an-idea-and-don't-know-what-to-do-about-it website.
<EgyParadox> I see
<EgyParadox> oh that portal for suggestions/ideas
<Cheesehead> That's the one.
#ubuntu-us-wi 2015-08-25
<h00k> ronoc_work: eyyo
<ronoc_work> h00k: waddup
