#ubuntu-classroom 2007-06-04
<bluebanana> jrib: hi
<jrib> hey
<jrib> the wesnoth people release their source code for the game, that's what I meant by "upstream".  Then the debian/ubuntu folks take that and package it so it works nicely with the package manager, this is what I meant by the source package
<bluebanana> ok. how do i compile?
<jrib> ok lets try rebuilding the wesnoth package
<jrib> let me check the deps first, hold on
<bluebanana> ok. 8-)
<jrib> k, good, nothing changed it seems
<jrib> alright, you'll need to edit sources.list temporarily.  Do you know how to do that?
<bluebanana> um, i forget
<bluebanana> 8-)
<bluebanana> mousepad
<bluebanana> and um,...
<jrib> gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list
<bluebanana> ok
<jrib> put that up on pastebin for me
<jrib> !paste
<ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<bluebanana> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/23988/
<jrib> ok, add this line:
<bluebanana> hmmm.
<jrib> deb-src http://ca.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ gutsy universe
<bluebanana> done
<jrib> sudo apt-get update
<jrib> make sure you remove this line when we are done by the way
<bluebanana> ok
<jrib> now: sudo apt-get install build-essential
<bluebanana> jrib
<bluebanana> sorry
<bluebanana> jrib, just to let you know, i tried installing 1.2.4 before you came to help me and i have broken packages
<bluebanana> 8-)
<bluebanana> should i resolve that first?
<jrib> umm yeah
<bluebanana> how
<bluebanana> synaptic?
<jrib> show me the problem
<bluebanana> how do i show you? Printscreen.png?
<jrib> do you get errors when you try to install build-essential?
<bluebanana> in synaptic, wesnoth is in the "broken dependencies" category
<bluebanana> yes
<bluebanana> , but i don't know if the error is from my work b4 you came to help
<bluebanana> hold on
<bluebanana> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/23989/
<jrib> bluebanana: what exactly did you do to try to install wesnoth?
<bluebanana> 1) I got all the debs from http://www.getdeb.net/category.php?id=3
<bluebanana> 2) sudo dpkg -i each_deb_file.deb
<bluebanana> voila
<jrib> all wesnoth-* stuff right? nothing else?
<bluebanana> yes, only those
<jrib> ok, uninstall all of them
<bluebanana> how do i uninstall the debs?
<bluebanana> should i go to synaptic?
<jrib> hold, on maybe we can just fix this
* jrib kicks the comma
<bluebanana> ok
<bluebanana> i don't mind unistalling the debs, though, so we can make sure we are using the upstream source
<jrib> try typing 'sudo apt-get install -f' but before you agree to anything make sure you read what it says (ie make sure it is not removing half of your system)
<jrib> I'll refer to that as the "ljl disclaimer"
<bluebanana> jrib: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/23990/
<bluebanana> i think i should just remove the wesnoth files first
<bluebanana> i think the lib___etc files were used by wesnoth originally.
<bluebanana> but i'm not sure
<jrib> looks sain, install those two packages as it suggests
<jrib> yeah, ignore the autoremove stuff, it's stupid
<LjL> @lart jrib
<bluebanana> jrib: it's installing python 2.4 but i already have 2.5!
<bluebanana> did you know that?
<jrib> bluebanana: you can have both!
<bluebanana> why can't wesnoth use the latest versions of python?
<jrib> bluebanana: you'll have to speak with the wesnoth devs about it, or the package maintainer
<bluebanana> ok.
<bluebanana> ok. terminal is done
<jrib> alright, try running wesnoth
<bluebanana> it works now.
<bluebanana> it says 1.2.4 in the corner!
<bluebanana> can i remove python 2.4 now?
<bluebanana> thanks, jrib!
<jrib> no, leave it.  What you do want to do is remove that line we added to your /etc/apt/sources.list
<bluebanana> ok. i almost forgot
<bluebanana> done
<jrib> after you remove it, run 'sudo apt-get update' again
<bluebanana> done
<jrib> bluebanana: ok, you should be all set
<bluebanana> anything else i should do?
<bluebanana> Thank you so much, Professor JRib!
<bluebanana> You are awesome
<jrib> ha, np
<bluebanana> bye for now. see you again
<bluebanana> 8-)
<jrib> bye
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#ubuntu-classroom 2007-06-05
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<julius> hello, I'd like to put ubuntu repository on dvd. I've already download them and use debpartial. Now I have to use debcopy to take the informations that are in my Packages.gz and copy the deb of my local repository to put them in the 4 folders. But it doesn't work ? can you help me please ?
<jrib> julius: a lot more eyes in #ubuntu to help
<julius> i know but noone can help me. I'm trying to get help 15 days ago... Forum, irc channel, etc. Noone seem to know :-/ so I try on different channels
<jrib> I remember seeing a blog with dvd repositories
<julius> maybe you're talking about this one :
<julius> http://omps.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/building-dvd-images-of-ubuntu-repositories/
<jrib> It was at least a year old, but here's another: http://www.howtoforge.com/dvd_images_of_ubuntu_repositories
<jrib> Are you Sasan on the forums?
<julius> No I'm not, I'm from Belgium, speaking french so I'm more on ubuntu-fr :-)
<jrib> coincidence then: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=446712
<jrib> julius: you could try the mailing list too
<julius> that's an idea... I have to send those DVD in Africa (Congo) in a couple of days... So I need an answer in the week. I hope it would work :-/
<julius> I followed the same tuto but on another place
<jrib> I'd help you troubleshoot, but I have to leave.  Maybe if you're around later I can help
<jrib> check bugs.ubuntu.com, maybe it's a bug
<julius> hmmm... I got an exam Tuesday, It's 10 pm and I have to learn 120 pages this evening :p i don't think i'll be there later
<jrib> oh, well I hope you figure it out
<julius> ok, thanks for listening to me :)
<julius> IT WORKS !!!!!
<julius> the script wasn't good !
<julius> I took the one on the page you gave me
<julius> thanks jrib !!!
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-06-06
<etank> class is in session :)
<crimsun> ok, the first thing I did was rename wine-doors-0.1pre1.tar.gz to wine-doors_0.1~pre1.orig.tar.gz
<crimsun> I then extracted it (tar xf)
<etank> ok
<crimsun> I then removed the existing debian symlink and recreated dist/debian as debian-upstream
<crimsun> I then created a new debian subdir and cp'd everything in debian-upstream into debian
<etank> you recreated the symlink as debian-upstream?
<crimsun> yes, you also could have used mv
<crimsun> completely your prerogative.  I intend to leave a pointer to the existing upstream structure as closely as possible.
<crimsun> At this point you should decide what packaging scheme you wish to use.
<crimsun> The existing debian-upstream approach is fairly straightforward debhelper.
<etank> whatever is easy to use / learn and works
<crimsun> Well, I can't make that call for you. :)
<etank> in this case what would you recommend using?
<crimsun> well, I'd use cdbs.
<crimsun> As the maintainer, you have to weigh some choices.
<crimsun> Using cdbs introduces an additional build-dependency but simplifies your debian/rules
<etank> at this point i am still learning so cdbs is fine with me
<crimsun> ok, make sure you have a Web browser window/tab open to https://perso.duckcorp.org/duck/cdbs-doc/cdbs-doc.xhtml
<etank> ok
<etank> i was looking at that and the docs that were installed with cdbs on my system
<crimsun> we can start with something straightforward.  Let's fix debian/changelog
<crimsun> e.g., http://pastebin.ca/543266
<crimsun> (I've not changed the date -R yet, but you can do that)
<etank> would you use 'dch -i' for this ?
<crimsun> I don't recommend it, since you only need one entry.
<crimsun> I would just recreate debian/changelog
<crimsun> You can accomplish that with your favorite $EDITOR
<etank> recreate or just add to the top of the existing one?
<crimsun> the former
<crimsun> it doesn't make sense to retain the existing debian/changelog entries
<etank> i would have thought that the creators changes would need to be included
<etank> done
<crimsun> no, they only need to be retained _inside the distro_
<crimsun> since you're working on the initial packaging for the Ubuntu distro, your changelog entry is the first.
<etank> i see
<crimsun> Furthermore, the original changelog is preserved in debian-upstream/changelog if anyone truly wishes to inspect the pedigree
<etank> makes sense
<crimsun> after you've modified debian/changelog, it's time to make a note regarding the symlink change.
<crimsun> cat >README.Debian-Source\
<crimsun> err
<crimsun> cat >README.Debian-Source
<crimsun> The debian/ shipped in upstream has been recreated as a symlink
<crimsun> (debian-upstream -> dist/debian).
<crimsun> ^D
<crimsun> (this is inside debian/, BTW)
<etank> so i add that to the README ?
<crimsun> using the precise syntax I've given you
<crimsun> README.Debian-Source is the filename
<etank> done
<crimsun> ok, the next file to modify is debian/control
<crimsun> you'll need to add cdbs as a build-dependency
<etank> is that as @cdbs@ ?
<crimsun> no, just cdbs.
<crimsun> you'll also need to bump the minimum required version of debhelper to >= 5
<etank> should the standards version be changed?
<etank> or does that matter?
<crimsun> I would bump it to 3.7.2; we'll ensure later that it adheres to Policy 3.7.2.
<etank> maintainer stays as the upstream person right
<crimsun> next up is to change the Maintainer field according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField
<crimsun> after that, I'd change the Description
<crimsun> e.g., http://pastebin.ca/543300
<crimsun> then:
<crimsun> cat >compat
<crimsun> 5
<crimsun> ^D
<crimsun> (that's for debhelper compat)
<etank> i need to add a XSBC-Original-Maintainer right?
<crimsun> no, because there's no Debian maintainer yet
<crimsun> thus, the only Maintainer is MOTU.
<etank> changes made
<crimsun> ok, so let's review.
<crimsun> so far we've modified/created changelog, compat, control, and README.Debian-Source
<etank> right
<crimsun> ok, next up is debian/menu
<crimsun> it needs to be reformatted: e.g., http://pastebin.ca/543308
<etank> compat went in debian too right?
<crimsun> correct.
<etank> ok
<etank> so all that was done in menu was moving each element to a seperate line?
<etank> is that just to make it easier to read later
<crimsun> formatting is important, and yes.
<crimsun> those are tabs, BTW.
<etank> my vim converts a tab to 4 spaces. will that work OK?
<crimsun> I'd use a tab.
<etank> done
<crimsun> ok, next up is debian/copyright
<crimsun> e.g., http://pastebin.ca/543315
<crimsun> note that that debian/copyright is incomplete
<crimsun> you need to further modify it so it mentions Debian's/Ubuntu's inclusion of common licenses on the user's filesystem.
<crimsun> note the additions of lines 35-39 at http://pastebin.ca/543321
<etank> ok
<crimsun> ok, now off to debian/rules
<etank> this is one of the files that i just do not understand
<etank> up until now i have understood most everything that we have done
<crimsun> debian/rules is really the "heart" of Debian/Ubuntu packaging
<etank> and it would be the "one" (really more than that) thing that i dont get
<etank> cdbs is supposed to make it easier thought right
<crimsun> it does
<etank> is it like calling templates of rules?
<crimsun> now, make sure you've got a Web browser window/tab open to https://perso.duckcorp.org/duck/cdbs-doc/cdbs-doc.xhtml#id2528674
<crimsun> we'll be following the New Python policy.
<crimsun> (sorry, phone call)
<etank> no problem at all
<crimsun> (ok, back)
<crimsun> essentially there are two Python approaches, python-support and python-central
<crimsun> the nice thing is that you don't have to know a thing about either; you just have to pick one
<etank> cool
<crimsun> so, pick one :)
<etank> it was heads so python-support
<crimsun> ok, so you'll need a DEB_PYTHON_SYSTEM = pysupport  line
<etank> where does it go
<crimsun> before you include include /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/python-distutils.mk
<crimsun> without the redundant include, of course
<crimsun> (the New Python policy section in the CDBS documentation, which you're hopefully following alongside, documents that)
<etank> so should i be starting with a clean rules file?
<etank> i was trying to figure out where these lines go in the current one
<crimsun> I'd delete everything except for the "python setup.py install -S --prefix=/ --temp=$(CURDIR)/debian/wine-doors/" line in the existing install: target
<etank> does this look right?
<etank> http://pastebin.ca/543389
<etank> except i have #!/usr/bin/make -f on the first line
<etank> http://pastebin.ca/543395
<crimsun> sec, Internet connection is not cooperating
<crimsun> ok
<crimsun> sorry about that
<crimsun> now
<etank> np
<crimsun> it turns out that you don't even need the Python policy
<crimsun> it's actually much simpler
<etank> simpler == better
<crimsun> upstream's setup.py, however, is crackful
<crimsun> they really ought to use distutils
<crimsun> cf. http://pastebin.ca/543449
<crimsun> note that you need to make corresponding changes to debian/control
<crimsun> cf. http://pastebin.ca/543454
<crimsun> note that you can erase debian/{config,*.template*} as both are unused
<etank> no deb-conf?
<crimsun> correct, see above.
<crimsun> now, the last step for debian/control will be to roll in the dependencies.
<crimsun> you'll need to add these from http://www.wine-doors.org/wordpress/?page_id=3
<etank> all of them?
<crimsun> well, some of them imply others
<etank> right. wine calls cabextract
<crimsun> no, not in that sense
<crimsun> meaning, e.g., adding python-glade2 as a Depends to Package: wine-doors implies a dependency on python, so you don't list python as a dependency.
<crimsun> python-glade2 also covers libcairo2 and python2.4-cairo
<etank> so would this be correct?
<etank> Depends: wine, python, python-glade2, python-libxml2
<crimsun> nope
<crimsun> Depends: wine, python-gnome2-desktop, python-libxml2, python-glade2
<crimsun> now, at the expense of doing _all_ the packaging for you :), I'm going to just point out some remaining issues.
<crimsun> most importantly, the man page needs fixing
<crimsun> also very important is the fact that you need to reroll the original tarball with the debian-upstream symlink in place but _without_ the debian dir
<crimsun> after you do that, you'll need to modify the version and the original tarball's filename to reflect this
<crimsun> I've posted the rerolled tarball as http://adhd.irule.net/~crimsun/wine-doors_0.1~pre1.repacked.orig.tar.gz
<crimsun> and the version that should be used in debian/changelog is 0.1~pre1.repacked-0ubuntu1
<etank> im still up on the man page part
<etank> what would need to be fixed there?
<crimsun> the sections and the headers
<crimsun> there are lots of walkthroughs to help you with that, so I'm not going to cover that here
<crimsun> finally, the Debianized source package needs a full copy of the GPL.  Upstream's LICENSE file is insufficient; a complete copy of the GPL needs to ship with it.
<etank> i thought that if it was a common license then it could just be mentioned where it is on the system
<crimsun> no
<crimsun> the license explicitly states that the user should have received a full copy of the GPL with the source code.
<crimsun> "You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program"
<crimsun> if you do not ship a full copy of the GPL, the archive admins will reject the source package.
<etank> i was going from http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ch-dreq.en.html#s-copyright  "License can be found in the file `/usr/share/common-licenses/GPL-2'."
<crimsun> that should be in debian/copyright, yes.
<crimsun> however, it is still required that the source package ship with a full copy of the GPL as per the terms of the license itself.
<crimsun> do you have any additional questions thus far?
<etank> i am so lost at this point i dont even know where to begin
<crimsun> ok, where are you lost?
<crimsun> have you understood the changes to [rerolled]  debian/ *
<crimsun> debian/* , rather
<crimsun> 1) changed changelog -> only 1 entry necessary
<crimsun> 2) created compat (contents "5")
<crimsun> 3) created README.Debian-Source (mentioned new symlink)
<crimsun> 4) changed control
<crimsun> 5) changed menu
<crimsun> 6) changed rules
<crimsun> 7) removed unnecessary files (*.template*, config)
<crimsun> which of those seven changes is unclear at this point?
<etank> i dont know what 2 was for
<etank> i still dont get rules
<crimsun> ok.  (2) is used because you have a versioned build-dependency in debian/control on debhelper (>= 5)
<etank> why would a the symlink stuff go in README.Debian-Source and not in the changelog
<etank> and i dont even remember what was changed in control
<crimsun> you've simplified debian/rules (6) to use cdbs [along with debhelper, but cdbs will handle that for you because you've included the debhelper file]  and not just debhelper
<crimsun> the symlink is mentioned in README.Debian-Source because you have to reroll (and thus rename) the original upstream tarball
<etank> what is the process of doing that
<crimsun> to what does "that" refer?
<etank> i can create a tarball but what needs to be changed in the rerolling?
<crimsun> ok, here, I'll walk you through that part
<crimsun> create a scratch dir and CWD into it
<crimsun> then, extract the _original_ upstream tarball
<crimsun> then CWD into the root of the extracted source
<etank> <dumb question> by CWD into it you mean just 'cd scatch'
<crimsun> yes
<crimsun> CWD == change working directory
<crimsun> now note how the extracted original upstream tarball has debian -> dist/debian//
<etank> yup
<crimsun> we want that to actually be debian-upstream -> dist/debian/
<crimsun> so, we'll do this:  mv debian debian-upstream
<etank> ok
<crimsun> next, we need to reroll this current version as the "repacked" tarball.
<etank> so that was it
<crimsun> so, we'll back out one directory (cd ..) and use tar+gzip to reroll the "original" [which is now the "repacked"]  tarball
<etank> moving the symlink to match what was done
<etank> tar zcvf wine-doors_0.1~pre1.repacked.orig.tar.gz wine-doors-0.1pre1 ?
<crimsun> tar cf wine-doors_0.1~pre1.orig.repacked.tar wine-doors-0.1pre1/
<crimsun> && gzip -9 wine-doors_0.1~pre1.orig.repacked.tar
<crimsun> sorry
<crimsun> wrong order
<crimsun> tar cf wine-doors_0.1~pre1.repacked.orig.tar wine-doors-0.1pre1/
<crimsun> gzip -9 wine-doors_0.1~pre1.repacked.orig.tar
<crimsun> then when you extract it, you'll create debian/ in that repacked version and go through those 7 changes listed above
<crimsun> this is good practice, since you should reroll that tarball with the full version of the GPL included as COPYING
<crimsun> is that a bit clearer?
<etank> somewhat
<crimsun> ok.
<etank> would the tar command that i typed have done the same thing?
<crimsun> sure
<etank> just checking
<etank> one last question
<crimsun> (although I always use tar & gzip -9 as separate steps due to some systems locally using a different compression level by default)
<etank> once all of the stuff is done what command is used to create the deb
<crimsun> debuild -S -sa -uc -us
<etank> i used debuild -S before and then sudo pbuilder ../*.dsc
<crimsun> or, if you have a GPG key already posted, debuild -S -sa -k0xfoo
<crimsun> and then, yes, pass the dsc to pbuilder build
<etank> ok
<etank> i still have lots of questions but i will have to ask them later
<crimsun> these steps will get you started with a wine-doors source package
<etank> i dont think my brain can handle much more
<crimsun> that's ok, I covered a lot more than just converting to CDBS
<etank> thank you for all your help
<crimsun> np, anytime.
<etank> the only place that i even saw cdbs come into play was in control and rules
<crimsun> correct
<etank> but i guess that it gets called by debuild
<crimsun> well, what ultimately builds the package is dpkg-buildpackage(1)
<etank> i think that i am starting to understand the mechanics of it all
<etank> just not how the files need to be laid out for it all to work
<etank> that and the policies
<crimsun> CDBS is just a system of redefined Makefile rules to make your life a bit easier
<etank> like sending the full GPL with it
<crimsun> yes, there are lots of policies - too many to cover in just a few hours
<crimsun> it'll take a good few months to become exposed to the myriad policies at work
<etank> other than playing like this, what else can i do to learn more about MOTU(ing)
<crimsun> a good place to supplement packaging is the Debian New Maintainer's Guide
<etank> i've read that
<etank> then i read the ubuntu packagingguide
<crimsun> the Contributing wiki page linked in the topic of #ubuntu-motu is helpful (hopefully)
<etank> i will look at that again tomorrow
<etank> thanks again for the help
<etank> good night
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-06-07
<dea> hallooo
<cad_> hello?
<cad_> I'm looking for ubuntu help
<cad_> is this the right channel?
<cad_> #ubuntu
<Pirate_Hunter> hi everyone
<Pirate_Hunter> how can I gain permission to my slave HD
<Pirate_Hunter> anyone here cna help me out please
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-06-08
<jrib> Pirate_Hunter: hello
<Pirate_Hunter> hi
<Pirate_Hunter> well teach sensei
<jrib> alright, what permissions do you want to give the drive?
<jrib> everyone can read/write or just your user?
<gty> howdy!
<Pirate_Hunter> well the prob is that the drive has got all permission but I can't add folders to it
<jrib> gty: hi
<jrib> Pirate_Hunter: ok, where is it mounted at the moment?
<Pirate_Hunter> it can be accessed by everyone except im not the owner and I cnat make directories
<Pirate_Hunter> /home/my folder/HD1
<jrib> ok, what is the output of this command: ls -ld '/home/my folder/HD1'
<Pirate_Hunter> going to check out
<gty> it's lovely how linux has evolved...or the support i should say
<Pirate_Hunter> drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 2007-06-07 19:28 /home/my folder/HD1
<Pirate_Hunter> is that good or bad
<jrib> Pirate_Hunter: ok, you want to be the owner?
<Pirate_Hunter> yup
<jrib> what is your username?
<Pirate_Hunter> i wnat to be able to organise directories inside the HD, I need to use the HD for university work
<Pirate_Hunter> my name
<Pirate_Hunter> lol
<jrib> erm, ok
<jrib> just do this:  sudo chown -R $USER: '/home/my folder/HD1'
<jrib> the -R will make chown work recursively
<Pirate_Hunter> going to do that right now dont go anywhere
<Pirate_Hunter> nothing no message i
<Pirate_Hunter> am I supposed to get a message??
<jrib> nope
<jrib> that means it ran successfully
<Pirate_Hunter> man jrib youre goooooooooood
<Pirate_Hunter> quick & straight to the point
<Pirate_Hunter> the wikii complicates things
<jrib> well the wiki is more general
<Pirate_Hunter> & the information is sometimes irrelevant to what i need
<Pirate_Hunter> goign to do the same for the second HD
<Pirate_Hunter> question will a normal user (once they get added) will they be restricted on that drive
<jrib> yes, a user other than your current one will not be able to write to that drive
<Pirate_Hunter> kl thats what I wnated you to say man/female youre trully good hopefully I will be just like you - lol
<jrib> note that other users can read it though
<Pirate_Hunter> can I tranfer files form my HD with XP to Ubuntu and vice versa
<jrib> yes, but you need to install an ext3 driver for XP
<jrib> !ext3
<ubotu> ext3 is the default filesystem on Ubuntu, and the most popular on Linux. You can read/write from Windows to ext3 via http://www.fs-driver.org
<Pirate_Hunter> if i download that i think its a program I will be able to transfer .doc files between both that way no need to restart
<Pirate_Hunter> It only provides EXT2
<jrib> you will be able to write to ext3, ext3 is just ext2 with a journal
<jrib> <--- right here Pirate_Hunter
<Pirate_Hunter> ok kl
<Pirate_Hunter> yeah should be sold as a handheld electronic PC
<Pirate_Hunter> youre too helpful
<jrib> hmm
<Pirate_Hunter> lol just my opinion
<Pirate_Hunter> so once i download it save it into cd and run it in windows right?
<jrib> Pirate_Hunter: that works -- or just download it in windows
<Pirate_Hunter> true i think since starting on linux ive gone computer ileterate
<Pirate_Hunter> all the methods I know on windows dont work heer
<Pirate_Hunter> the way the OS has been created is enginious
<jrib> yeah, linux is a bit different but its very powerful if you aren't scared of learning how to use a computer all over again
<Pirate_Hunter> yeha im not scared but after being heer in a while and reading what other ppl have done to mess up their comp it makes me wonder...
<Pirate_Hunter> how do i setup a default music player
<jrib> !default
<ubotu> To change the default application for a filetype in Nautilus, right-click on a file, select Properties -> Open With, and then change the setting. In Kubuntu, Konqueror -> Settings -> Configure and then hit "File Associations"
<Pirate_Hunter> juice keeps poping up and its annoying
<jrib> if you're talking about what happens when you put in a cd, system > preferences > removable drives and media
<Pirate_Hunter> nah its a music CDROm if i right click it dont give me those options
<Pirate_Hunter> damn youre quick and beofre i asked
<Pirate_Hunter> seriously you should be bought in shops
<Pirate_Hunter> you wouldn't know how to get my printer to work
<jrib> well that's pretty hit or miss, depends on the model.  If it's a friendly one, you should be able to use system > administration > printing.  If that doesn't work, then:
<jrib> !print
<ubotu> Printing in Ubuntu is done with cups. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Printers - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsPrinters - http://linuxprinting.org - Printer sharing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkPrintingFromWindows
<Pirate_Hunter> I read those but they dont have my printer type
<jrib> what printer?
<Pirate_Hunter> it tells me to use propietary
<Pirate_Hunter> canon i350
<Pirate_Hunter> so is there a drive for my canon i350 printer
<jrib> I can't really tell you anything more than what linuxprinting.org says
<Pirate_Hunter> no prob, huh!! none of my floppies open in ubuntu
<Pirate_Hunter> is this normal
<jrib> never used a floppy on ubuntu, try #ubuntu
<Pirate_Hunter> huh never used floppies watdheck am i the only one still using them
<Pirate_Hunter> will do so
<jrib> well I've used them, but not in the past decade :P
<jrib> what do you use them for anyway?
<Pirate_Hunter> just save doc files on the go when i dont know wheer my pen drive is
<Pirate_Hunter> they come in handy
<Pirate_Hunter> also helpful to flash windows, cmos etc
<jrib> tape the pen drive to a floppy!
<Pirate_Hunter> lol than there wouldnt be a need for the floppy
<Pirate_Hunter> and windows can't boot from a pen drive... can it???
<Pirate_Hunter> jrib i aint gonna take more of your time need to go to windows soon, go a deadline to meet by tomorrow so i cna get paid
<Pirate_Hunter> tanx for the help, c you when ever im on
<jrib> Pirate_Hunter: alright, enjoy ubuntu and good luck with the floppy drive
<Pirate_Hunter> no problem have a nice day/evening/night
<Bearcat> Sanne: here
<Sanne> :)
<Sanne> ok, I'd like to give an overview first, so you knwo what to expect.
<Bearcat> cool. by the way, i may be a stranger to kubuntu, but not linux.  I run sourcemage at home
<Bearcat> but since this isn't my PC i am being more cautious
<Sanne> The principle is: you will disable every online repository in your /etc/apt/sources.list, then add the upgrade cd-rom, then do the upgrade so that packages get only loaded from the cd.
<Bearcat> ahh
<Sanne> so not every instrucion on this page aplies, so we will do it step by step together.
<Bearcat> i assume i need to do the 6.10 alternate cd then the 7.04 aternate cd (one at a time)?
<n2diy> What are you folks upgrading from, to? I may want to keep a copy of this?
<Bearcat> i.e. i have the 6.10 in the drive and mounted at /media/cdrom
<Bearcat> n2diy:  i'm upgrading from 6.06
<Sanne> n2diy: dapper->edgy->feisty kubuntu from cd (not over the web)
<n2diy> Yep, I'll be keeping a copy of this then, gl.
<Bearcat> n2diy: eyes on your own paper!  Cheat again and the teacher will give you an F :P
<Sanne> hehe
<n2diy> :)
<Sanne> Bearcat: would it be ok to get *some* packages from the web, or can we only install from the cd right now?
<Bearcat> this computer is on a 28.8k dialup connection so i want to get as much from the Cd as possible.
<Bearcat> but yeah, i can grab some packages.
<Sanne> disclaimer to Bearcat and n2diy: I never did that myself, but I think I can help with following the instructions on the page. For n2diy: this page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FeistyUpgradesManual
<Sanne> Bearcat: ok, then you can do instruction no 1 to make sure you have those packages.
<n2diy> Sanne: roger that, I'll have a look at it.
<Bearcat> Sanne: these are ubuntu packages..is this ok?
<Sanne> Bearcat: yes, but wait a moment
* Bearcat waits
<Sanne> Bearcat: let's simulate the install, so we can see if you have them, and if not, how many packages would get installed *if* you needed.
<Sanne> Bearcat: type: sudo apt-get -s install ubuntu-minimal ubuntu-standard
<Bearcat> both are the newest versions
<Sanne> Bearcat: nice
<Bearcat> (at least as of 6.06)
<Sanne> Bearcat: now the next one, also simulate first: sudo apt-get -s install kubuntu-desktop
<Bearcat> same result
<Sanne> Bearcat: very good. Now I'd like to see your /etc/apt/sources.list. Can you paste it to paste.ubuntu-nl.org?
<Bearcat> sure
<Bearcat> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/24654/
<Bearcat> sorry for the delay, pastebin accused me of being a spammer
<Sanne> Bearcat: nasty pastebin! :)
<Bearcat> indeed
<Sanne> Bearcat: we will edit this file soon, so you may want to make a backup first.
<n2diy> Bearcat: with your nick, I would have thought pastebing would have accused you of being a scanner. :)
<n2diy> pastebing/pastebin
<Bearcat> lol
<Bearcat> ok, backed up
<Bearcat> bearcat == another name for the panther family
<n2diy> roger, I'm a ham radio op, so I have a few Bearcats.
<Bearcat> nice!
<Sanne> Bearcat: before we proceed, I think you're supposed to make sure you have an up to date system.
<Bearcat> i do.
<Sanne> ah, good
<Bearcat> (but i'll verify again)
<Bearcat> do i want to go into emacs and replace all "deb" with "#deb"?
<Sanne> Bearcat: yes, that would be the first thing to do (was just typing it heh) :)
<n2diy> Would the princibles here apply to a 5.10 upgrade also?
<Sanne> n2diy: Yes, I think so, only when we will add edgy repositories, you would make them... what is it, dapper?
<n2diy> roger on Dapper.
<Bearcat> done
<Bearcat> now i want the "sudo apt-cdrom add" ?
<Sanne> Bearcat: yes, witht he edgy cd in the drive
<Bearcat> yup
<Bearcat> the instructions do not tell you to mount it, but i assume you have to
<Sanne> Bearcat: no, I don't think you need to, try first without
<Bearcat> oh
<Bearcat> apparently not
<Sanne> :)
<Bearcat> it unmounts it and mounts it again
<Bearcat> now it's scanning the disk
<Sanne> that's a good sign
<Bearcat> alright, now i'll do the next command: "sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade" ?
<Sanne> wait
* Bearcat waits
<Sanne> check your sources.list again if the cd got added, and if the deb lines are still commented.
<Bearcat> yup~ looks good
<Sanne> wait more, please
* Bearcat waits more :)
<Sanne> now comes the actual upgrade. If something goes wrong, I might not be able to help with every problem (because I didn't do this myself). Is this ok with you?
<Bearcat> sure
<Sanne> :)
<Sanne> Ok, then do the upgrade, no 5.
<Bearcat> what is aptitude? That is on here. Do i want to use that line instead?
<Sanne> it#s another front-end to apt, but I wouldn't recommend it right now because I'm not familiar with it.
<Bearcat> gotcha.
* Bearcat does the upgrade
<Sanne> it handles updates a bit different regarding recommended packages
* Sanne holds her breath
<Bearcat> 25% done
* Sanne is sweating
<Bearcat> Shit! It installed M$ Vista :P
<Sanne> ROFL!
<Bearcat> it says a few packages were held back, so i assume i have to do this again
<n2diy> So we a are just using plain jane apt-get sans aptitude?
<Bearcat> n2diy: yup
<Sanne> Bearcat: I think that's what point 6 might be for?
<Bearcat> right
<Sanne> Ok, let's try
<Bearcat> 95% done
<Bearcat> extracting templates from packages 15% done
<Sanne> Bearcat: *if* something goes wrong after reboot, do you have any live cd handy so you could come back for help?
<Bearcat> yup (which i of course didn't bring with me :) but i only live 2 miles away
<Sanne> Bearcat: heh, hopefully we won't need that then ;)
<Bearcat> damn it i just slected uni2 instead of uni1 on the console language screen.
<Bearcat> probably not a big deal
<Bearcat> it's doing setups now
<Sanne> Bearcat: do you knwo if the system has any restricted video driver installed? Nvidia or Ati?
<Bearcat> i dont' think so..
<Bearcat> checks
<n2diy> Sanne:  on a box with a 28.8k modem?
<Sanne> n2diy: why not?
<n2diy> Sanne: yeh, ya never know?
<Sanne> n2diy: I had before broadband. Offline gaming is also fun :)
<Bearcat> Sanne: um..wow. This thing is using the via driver O.o
<Sanne> Bearcat: so that's nothing to worry about, hopefully. But if the x server doesn't come up after boot, you can try to reconfigure it with: sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg
<n2diy> This is sounding like #ubuntu. :)
<Sanne> :)
<Bearcat> *nods*
* Bearcat watches the packages install
<Sanne> Bearcat: do you think it will be busy long enough for me to have time to make a coffee?
<Bearcat> well, at least it's faster then my beloved sourcemage
<Bearcat> oh, yeah
<Sanne> ok, brb :)
<n2diy> Bearcat: how far along is the upgrade?
<Sanne> Bearcat: back
<Bearcat> doing setups now
<Bearcat> i;m seeing a dew errors. It can't find the program opendir and it's screwed up fontconfig
<Bearcat> Fontconfig error: Cannot load default config file
<Sanne> hmm
<Bearcat> i'll aptget for opendir hthen this is done
<Sanne> ok
<Bearcat> ok, apt-get can't find a package for opendir
<Bearcat> and there were some errors at the end
<Sanne> Bearcat: can you pastebin those?
<Bearcat> nope
<Bearcat> right now i can't create io-slaves
<n2diy> There is a bug report that might relate to this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mozilla/+bug/108259
<Bearcat> but i'll paste it here. it's only 8 lines
<Sanne> o
<Bearcat> i can't load it
<Sanne> ok
<n2diy> It relates to erros upgrading edgy to feisty.
<Bearcat> i wonder if i shoudl try installed firefox for the moment
<n2diy> erros/errors
<Bearcat> Errors were encountered while processing:
<Bearcat>  debtags
<Bearcat>  adept-common
<Bearcat>  adept-manager
<Bearcat>  adept-installer
<Bearcat>  adept-updater
<Bearcat>  adept-notifier
<Bearcat>  adept-batch
<Bearcat>  adept
<Bearcat>  language-selector-qt
<Bearcat> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
<Bearcat> well, i'll try the rest of these steps and see where they take me
<Sanne> Bearcat: which step of no 6 was the last you did?
<Bearcat> i just completed no 5
<Bearcat> i havent' done no 6 yet
<Sanne> ah, ok, then yes, try the rest.
<Bearcat> ok, fixed those
<Sanne> yay!
<Bearcat> ok, if i do the first line of no  6 i see: The following packages have been kept back:
<Bearcat>   gcj-4.1-base gij-4.1 initscripts kde-guidance libgcj-common python-crypto
<Bearcat>   python-kde3 python-qt3 ubuntu-minimal xserver-xorg-core
<Bearcat>   xserver-xorg-input-elographics xserver-xorg-input-evdev
<Bearcat>   xserver-xorg-input-kbd xserver-xorg-input-mouse
<Bearcat>   xserver-xorg-input-synaptics
<Bearcat> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 15 not upgraded.
<Sanne> hmmm, some of those seem pretty important.
<Bearcat> um..yeah
<Bearcat> i'm not sure what "kept back" means.
<Bearcat> i mean i know what those packages are.
<Sanne> it means those didn't get upgraded
<Bearcat> and i don't know where to find this "opendir" program
<Sanne> I tried to find info on opendir but so far found nothing
<Sanne> what happens if you do again: sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
<Bearcat> *tries it*
<Bearcat> same thing
<Bearcat> how about i try step no 5 again?
<Sanne> By the way, if somebody in this channel follows us and has any advice for us, please don't hesitate to jump in.
<n2diy> Sanne: Bearcat: I'm googling.
<Bearcat> well, i'm gonna try step no 5 again and see if that does anything
<Sanne> Bearcat: step 5 is the same as the first of step 6 ;)
<Sanne> but go ahead
<Bearcat> oh....duh
<Sanne> Bearcat: hm?
<Sanne> ah!
<Sanne> Bearcat: line 2 of step 6 is also supposed to clear up inconsistencies, so that would be next in any case, I guess.
<Bearcat> nothing changed still 15 held back
<Bearcat> at this point i'm temped to reboot
<Sanne> no, not yet
<Bearcat> perhaps an ldconfig ?
<Sanne> I think the last line of 6 might be important, let me find out what it does
<Bearcat> *nods*
<Sanne> Bearcat:
<Sanne> Reconfigure an unpacked package.  If -a or  --pending  is  given
<Sanne>               instead  of  package, all unpacked but unconfigured packages are
<Sanne>               configured.
<Bearcat> *nods*
<Sanne> That's what it does, so I don't think it will help the kept back packages, but it shouldn't hurt either
<Bearcat> hmm
<Bearcat> good 'cause i did it :)
<Bearcat> well it says that some packages will fail no matter what, but usually you dont' want thsoe to be xorg packages
<Sanne> Bearcat: at this point I would like you to ask in #kubuntu, I'll paste the relevant lines to the pastebin and give you the link. Ok?
<Bearcat> thanks
<Sanne> Bearcat: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/24659/
<Sanne> I will be following in #kubuntu
<Bearcat> thanks
<Sanne> :)
<Bearcat> i was hopig i could do this in a hour and then go home
<Sanne> Ooo
<Sanne> :)
<Sanne> Btw, I'm a "she"
<Bearcat> oh,
<Bearcat> excuse me
<Sanne> no problem, just so you know :)
<Bearcat> that's cool. There arent' nearly enough of you in this linux world
<Sanne> right
<Bearcat> if i decide to reboot to a live CD, i will then remove the CDrom line and go through this process again with 7.10 and see what happends. I have a feeling it can't get more broken. :)
<Bearcat> at worst i can move /home to it's own partion (why isnt' it on it's own partition to start with?) and reinstall.
<Sanne> Bearcat: proncipally ok, but I always hear that a system must be up to date for a dist upgrade. But to get edgy upgrades from the net might be too much, so, yeah.
<Sanne> Bearcat: I would definitely make a /home partition
<Sanne> In fact, that's what I also will need to do if I want to have feisty. I might go the reinstall route with backed up home.
<Bearcat> so i can't upgrade to fiesty without a home partition?
<Sanne> you can, but I meant it's a good idea to have it backed up, like you said :)
<Sanne> if you reinstall, you can make a list of all installed packages now if you want, to find out what needs to be installed separately.
<Sanne> You can make a file with all packages installed like this: COLUMNS=150 dpkg -l > dapper-packages.txt
<n2diy> I gotta go, but I'll check the channel here when i get back, hopefully everything will be 10-4 then.
<Sanne> n2diy: thanks, bye :)
<Sanne> Bearcat: what is the output of: dpkg -l xserver-xorg-core | grep ^ii
<Bearcat> thanks
<Bearcat> Sanne: then how would i use that file to install?
<Sanne> Bearcat: you don't, that's only onformative. But there's a proper way for automation, let me find out.
<Bearcat> the output of "dpkg -l xserver-xorg-core | grep ^ii" is ii  xserver-xorg-core 1.0.2-0ubuntu10.6 X.Org X server -- core server
<Sanne> hmm, then I can't understand why it's kept back, because the edgy version is indeed higher (1:1.1.1-0ubuntu12)
* Sanne goes looking for automated install of packages
<Bearcat> well at this point, i'm tempted to just reboot and cross my fingers
<Bearcat> most of that is device drivers (though the initscripts) concerns me
<Sanne> just one moment, I soon have the command to make a proper packages file
<Bearcat> thanks
<Sanne> Ok, I don't understand all, so you might not do it blindly, but you might want to make the two backup files ina any case. What exactly to do with them would need some reseach, then. http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/
<Bearcat> heh. i cant' see that.
<Bearcat> i have no ko-slaves for browsing
<Bearcat> in konqueror
<Sanne> the problem is that there are packages on hold now, that state shouldn't be restored, I think
<Sanne> oh
<Sanne> yes, I forgot :)
<Sanne> can you write down this link for later? I tell you what to do now.
<Bearcat> well, if i reboot (and can get to at least rl 3) i can try upgrading to fiesty
<Bearcat> sure. got it
<Bearcat> what link
<Sanne> ok, make two files: 1: debconf-get-selections > debconf.cfg    2: dpkg --get-selections \* >myselections
<Sanne> Bearcat: the link was false, this is the correct one: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/24662/
<Sanne> Bearcat: there are instructions I found how to restore the packages from those two files you just made
<Bearcat> debconf-get-selections: command not found
<Sanne> then make at least the secons file
<Sanne> second
<Bearcat> got it
<Bearcat> alright, shall i reboot now?  If so shall i try the edgy update again and if that fails, try the fiesty?
<Bearcat> what do i have to loose really?
<Sanne> I think so, and if all else fials, backup /home and install feisty. But: it's very late here by now, I guess I will have to go to bed soon.
<Bearcat> thakn you very much for the help Sanne. Sleep well
<Sanne> I hope you will be able to make the upgrade. I will stay here for some minutes and see if you rebooted successfully. :)
<Bearcat> thanks. See you in a few. i hope.
<Sanne> :)
<n2diy> Bearcat, Sanne, you folks finished?
<kushal06062007> do you teach us how to use ubuntu?
<nalioth> kushal06062007: look in the /topic
<nalioth> er, never mind, somebody has changed the topic
<kushal06062007> Nalioth:
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-classroom:nalioth] : Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek  |  Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts
<kushal06062007> I will go the the links first.
<kushal06062007> /Time
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-06-09
<Sanne> n2diy_: ping
<n2diy_> Sanne: pong?
<Sanne> n2diy_: remember me helping Bearcat yesterday?
<n2diy_> Sanne: roger
<Sanne> n2diy_: did you hear from Bearcat? I had to leave yesterday and didn't see if the reboot succeeded.
<n2diy_> Sanne: I still have the transcript here, after you told him you would stick around for couple of minutes, and what for the reboot, the channel went silent. A got back about midnight EDT, and queried you guys, but no replies.
<n2diy_> what/wait
<Sanne> n2diy_: ah, ok. Hmmm, I guess then there were troubles. Well, maybe we see Bearcat again. Thanks :)
<n2diy_> Sanne: roger that, give me a yell if you hear from him, I always have this channel open.
<Sanne> n2diy_: ok, will do.
<n2diy_> Sanne: I think I'll stick with Dapper for the time being. :) Curious, why was he using the alternate CD for the upgrade?
<Sanne> n2diy_: if you want to use a cd as a repository, you need the alternate. The live cd can't be used for that.
<Sanne> n2diy_: I'm also still on Dapper, btw.
<Sanne> n2diy_: the computer Bearcat was on only has dialup, so upgrade over the net would be painful, therefore the cd.
<n2diy_> Sanne: ah, ok, something else for my todo list, DL the Alt CD. Roger still being on Dapper, with all the trouble I"m seeing in #ubuntu, I can't see Edgy or Feisty as an upgrade option.
<Sanne> n2diy_: I don't know yet what I'll do. In any case, I *will* have to make my backups first, which are nor finished. I might see Gutsy released before I'm ready to upgrade :)
<n2diy_> Sanne: roger that, what is your back up strategy? I was playing with Mondo/Mindi for bare metal recover, but that isn't guit ready for prime time, so I've settled on only backing up /home. And I have no motivation to back, Dapper does everything I need it to do, so why bother?
<n2diy_> motivation to upgrade.
<Sanne> n2diy_: I'm usually paranoid, so I need to backup all my assembled docs, data, work, which amounts to a lot by now. My /home is on a separate partition, but I will backup the most important parts of it anyway, as well as /etc and some intersting files in /var. So far I do it all by hand, that's why it takes so long.
* Sanne wonders if it's ok to chat in here, or should we better go to *-offtopic?
<n2diy_> Sanne: roger that, when I do upgrade, I have to remember to create a seperate partition for /home, sure makes life simpler. But before I found Ubuntu, I was rebuilding my box every six months, so I wasn't concerned with back ups, other then putting files onto  a USB drive.
<n2diy_> Sanne: And I got smart, and built a test box, so when I do want to play, my mission critical stuff isn't at risk.
<Sanne> n2diy_: yeah, that's what I do, really important files get backed up immediately externally. For partitions, I have some non-ubuntu apps under /usr/local, so that's another partition I made that won't get overwritten by a reinstall.
<Sanne> test box is nice :)
<n2diy_> Sanne: Yes, and after I had to do a bare metal recovery six months ago, it was a must. I tried to load Flash Player on this box, and lost everything that wasn't on the USB drive, took me three days to recover.
<Sanne> n2diy_: shouldn't we go to #kubuntu-offtopic?
<n2diy_> Sanne: Why, who's complaining? Are we keeping the ops up?
<Sanne> n2diy_: I'm just not sure if it's ok to have general chat in here... and I would like to follow conventions. But ok if you think we can stay.
<n2diy_> Sanne: Besides, we are studying back up strategies, that is class work!?
<Sanne> hehe
<n2diy_> Sanne: If we were bothering somebody, we'd know about.
<Sanne> ok
<n2diy_> Sanne: A couple of days ago I was helping someone in #ubuntu, and he couldn't get pastebin to work, so we came over hear, and he flooded the channel, at my suggestion, there was a minor protest, but no hassles.
<Sanne> that's nice
<n2diy_> Sanne: Of course, I don't make a habit of doing that, but the guy needed help and couldn't pastebin, so where was the harm?
<Sanne> n2diy_: correct. But I think there's also a channel named #flood for such things, if you should need it sometime.
<n2diy_> Sanne: I didn't know that, let me give it a try?
<n2diy_> Sanne: Yep, and there are people in it too!
<Sanne> n2diy_: of course :) But read the topic, abusers will be frowned upon ;)
<n2diy_> Sanne: I just added it to my stay connect list.
<Sanne> n2diy_: good thing to have :)
<n2diy_> Sanne: Yes, I'm suprised the ops here didn't chase me over there the other day?
<Sanne> n2diy_: either they don't know, or didn't bother because it wasn't too annoying. I guess.
<Sanne> n2diy_: most times ubuntu people are very nice folks indeed :)
<n2diy_> Sanne: Agreed, most of the ops are tolerant minor transgressions. I didn't even realize there was a minor protest the other day, until I reviewed the transcript. Then I contacted the op involved, and he told not to sweat it.
<Sanne> n2diy_: that's one of the best things about the ubuntu community, the nice people. I mean, it really can make all the difference to a new user to stay or to leave, depending on how the first contact with the community is experienced.
<n2diy_> Sanne: Yes, I've found the entire Ubuntu experience to be fun. When I learned about Shipit a year ago, my first thought was, wow, somebody in the Linux world is getting a clue. When I got my disks, zero trouble with the install, another plus. Six months ago, I discovered IRC, and #ubuntu, and 99.9% of my IRC time as be enjoyable. I've been playing with linux since 99, and by far, Ubuntu has the best community going.
<Sanne> n2diy_: that's nice to hear. Is ubuntu your first linux experience then?
<n2diy_> Sanne: no way, re-read my last post, I've been playing with linux since 1999, started with Redhat 5.2, that was a nightmare, never did get X working with it. Then Mandrake 7.0, got X to work, but no printer support at the time. Then Fedora Core 1 which did everything I needed, then Knoppix, because it was the talk of the town, finally, Ubuntu 5.10, and now 6.06.
<Sanne> n2diy_: "I've been playing with linux since 99" /me blushes
<Sanne> n2diy_: did you find the switch to deb based distros from rpm based ones difficult?
<n2diy_> Sanne: In 99 it wasn't fun! Only support was via email, and most of that was RTFM.
<Sanne> Oo.
<n2diy_> Sanne: I wasn't Micro$oft free until about 3 or 4 years ago, when I picked up a printer that linux supported.
<Sanne> ah. I started end of 2002 with Debian and switched to ubuntu with breezy end of 2005.
<n2diy_> Sanne: Switching from rpms to debs was a challenge at first. But I have a lot of local support from the local ham radio ops around here, so they helped me through it. I have converted rpms to debs with Alien too, that is pretty cool stuff.
<Sanne> n2diy_: I never used other than debs, so I wouldn't know my way around rpm. But I'm sure today much can be learned by manuals and howtos. That's how I leared Debian. It was tough, took me 3 months to feel comfortable, but it worked.
<n2diy_> Sanne: And things have come a long way in the last couple of years, Synaptic is a god send to the linux newbie.
<Sanne> n2diy_: yeah, Synaptic is a very nice program.
<n2diy_> Sanne: Yes, one of the problems with linux is documentation, programmers are lousy document writers. But that is changing now, with wiki and howtos etc...
<Sanne> yes
<n2diy_> Sanne: What is the plural for wiki? :)
<Sanne> not wikis?
<n2diy_> Sanne: Beats me?
<Sanne> I would say wikis.
<n2diy_> Sanne: What do you know about networking? A bought two wireless routers, thinking the would talk to each other, but that doesn't work, since the both act as servers?
<Sanne> n2diy_: I don't know much, just enough to set up our little home network with 3 pcs connected to a router via ethernet cables. I know nothing about wireless, sorry.
<Sanne> n2diy_: why do you have two routers?
<n2diy_> Sanne: Roger that, I have a similar setup here, the routers also have RJ45 ports for ethernet. I have two routers because I thought they would talk to each other, and I could set one up here, and the other one down in the garage, and avoid a 150 run of ethernet cable.
<n2diy_> 150 foot
<Sanne> ah, I see your reasoning. But no, I wouldn't know how to set that up, or if it's possible at all.
<n2diy_> Sanne: plus, I'm a ham radio op, and I'm allowed to play on the freqs that 802.11b uses, so I can add amplifiers to the routers, directional antennas, etc...
<Sanne> sounds... a bit confusing hehe (I also don't knwo anything about ham radio)
<n2diy_> Sanne: So what/how is your network connections setup? I've played with VNC, but that is about it. I need to explore ways to backup this box, to my test box, over the network.
<n2diy_> Sanne: If I got that setup, I could bring the old FC1 box online, and have access, here, to all my old data on the FC1 box.
<Sanne> n2diy_: I have one pc in my room with linux, my hisband has an old windows pc and a new win/linux pc in his room, all three are connected via ehternet cards with cables to a router, which is connected to a dsl modem. His old pc and mine talk via samba. (is this what you want to know?)
<n2diy_> Sanne: Thanks, but I don't need Samba, since none of my boxes use Winders. I'm just asking in case you had a easy solution. I need to do my homework, and study it more. Why does your husband have an old Winders box, you could breath new life into it with Linux?
<Sanne> n2diy_: no, the old one will retire as soon as he is ready to use the new one, and learn linux :)
<n2diy_> Sanne: Ok, don't trash it though, you can do good stuff with old hardware, using linux. I have an old 486 that I want to convert to a headless firewall, someday.
<Sanne> n2diy_: we still have all our old pcs, including a 486 :) Not sure what we do with them, though, maybe donate them.
<Sanne> n2diy_: isn't it called nfs what you could use for connecting linux boxes?
<n2diy_> Sanne: Roger on donating. NFS sounds right, like I said, I need to do my homework and study up on it. Remote Desktop is what I have working now. It's fun to control this box from the test box, and see what is happening, but I don't think that is a "real" network?
<Sanne> don't know also
<Sanne> I found this for youto read :) https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SettingUpNFSHowTo
<n2diy_> Sanne: Thanks, I'm opening it up now. Won't be doing anything with it tonight though, I have to get down to the Legion by 10 pm, and it is 88 degrees here in the shack, so my motivation is low.
<Sanne> n2diy_: just bookmark it for later, I just thought it might help you evaluate the possibilities. (( degrees is fahrenheit, I assume?
<Sanne> 88
<Sanne> oh, 31 degrees celsius!!!
<Sanne> that's hot
<n2diy_> Sanne: i will book mark it, yes fahrenheit, 88 C. and I'd be dead! :) Yes, it is hot, but not as hot as 88 C. :) Where are you located?
<Sanne> I'm in northern germany, we had nice 25 deg celsius today :)
<n2diy_> Sanne: wow, getting pretty late there. I'm in Eastern Pennsylvania, and this is a freak warm front for this time of year. But it is forecast to change overnight. Your English is very good, but hisband tipped me off that it might not be your native language.
<Sanne> lol, hisband
<Sanne> that was a typo! :)
<Sanne> and thanks for the compliment, n2diy_
<n2diy_> Sanne: Ok, I see the u and i are next to each other. Had to look, since I don't use the QWERTY keyboard, I'm on a Dvorak keyboard, and the u and the i are next to each other on this too.
<Sanne> yes, that's right
* Sanne looks at Pennsylvania via google maps
<n2diy_> Sanne: Lansford, Pa.
<Sanne> let me find it
<Sanne> git it
<Sanne> got even
<Sanne> pretty green, looks nice
<n2diy_> Sanne: Coal country, the American Industrial Revolution was born hear. Also, cable tv was invented here.
<Sanne> really? Sounds interesting.
<Sanne> man, the usa is sooo big
<n2diy_> Sanne: It was, but things aren't what the used to be. I've only lived here 5.5 years, the region is in distress, the mines are shut down, and youngsters are moving away, etc. The reason I'm here is it looked like a good place to retire, and I could research my families genealogy. My maternal grandmother grew up in this area.
<Sanne> n2diy_: oh, sorry to hear that about your area. Is it still nice to live there, thoguh?
<Sanne> though
<n2diy_> Sanne: Yes it is, most of the folks are friendly, and there still are folks trying to improve the town, bring jobs in etc... Of course, so are the drug dealers, but you have that anywhere. But, I'm a ham radio operator, anywhere there are people in the universe where there are people, I have friends! I new my friends here before I moved, because I was talking to them on the radio before I moved! :)
<n2diy_> whoops, the beer and heat are catching up to me.
<Sanne> hehe, sounds good. Well, I guess I should think of going to sleep. It was nice talking to you, n2diy_! :)
<n2diy_> Sanne: roger that, good timing, I should get ready to go to the Legion, 73 to you and your hisband. :)
<Sanne> hahaha
<Sanne> thanks, take care, bye :)
<Sanne> (what means 73?)
<n2diy_> Sanne: google on ham and 73! 73
<Sanne> ok, will do. /me out
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-06-10
<logmein> hello
<jrib> logmein: hello
<omegacenti> Hey :)
<logmein> hi
<jrib> logmein: did you do 'sudo fdisk -l' to find your drive?
<logmein> yep /dev/hdb like how I guessed
<jrib> alright, is it formatted?
<logmein> umm it says above it "Partition table entries are not in disk order"
<jrib> hmm not sure what that is.  Is there any data on it you need to get at?
<logmein> I'm assuming its blank since it shows nothing
<logmein> nope
<jrib> logmein: alright, run gparted and see if it is already formatted how you want it (and format it if it isn't)
<logmein> ok I wrote an ext3 partition on it now
<jrib> ok
<logmein> now do I just mount it and check it?
<jrib> first, make a mount point:  sudo mkdir /media/hdb
<jrib> yeah, you know how to do this?
<logmein> was hoping there might be way to get it to show up in file manager and other places
<jrib> it will once you mount it
<logmein> ok
<logmein> so I mount it in /media ok
<jrib> create a directory in /media called "hdb" and then mount it to /media/hdb
<jrib> so your fstab line would look something like:
<jrib> /dev/hdb    /media/hdb    vfat    defaults    0    2
<logmein> ok
<jrib> /dev/hdb    /media/hdb    ext3    defaults    0    2
<jrib> oops
<omegacenti> What is Fstab?
<jrib> !fstab
<ubotu> The /etc/fstab file indicates how drive partitions are to be used or otherwise integrated into the file system. See http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/fstab.html and !Partitions
<omegacenti> thanks :)
<logmein> umm odd,,,
<ralph> please help me with  my apache - php  install i'm getting the following errors[Sun Jun 10 12:08:44 2007]  [error]  [client 127.0.0.1]  SoftException in Applicati
<logmein> it detects it now
<ralph> on.cpp:297: UID of script "/var/www/dev.ralph.com/phpinfo.php" is smaller than m
<ralph> in_uid
<ralph> [Sun Jun 10 12:08:44 2007]  [error]  [client 127.0.0.1]  Premature end of script he
<ralph> aders
<logmein> ok thanks for help but I have no clue what I just did its showing up though
<jrib> ralph: try #ubuntu, but do not paste errors like that.  Instead use http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org
<jrib> logmein: hmm did you get to add the line to fstab or did it just show up on its own?
<logmein> well I fdisked it as 83 then it did a sync and opened up the folder in thunar
<jrib> ah ok
<logmein> I then deleted the old linux system on it as root and have a blank hard drive here
<logmein> I was just troubled by the fact I couldn't mount it
<logmein> and how come fdisk didn't erase that old stuff on it?
<jrib> well you may still want to set it up in fstab to make it mount where you want it to
<omegacenti> LOL cool! Can you mount something thats not a media? Like a text file or a sound card?
<logmein> omegacenti: umm its called a text editor...
<jrib> you mount file systems omegacenti
<omegacenti> logmein: Im talking about weird mounts.
<omegacenti> jrib: so I could format my usb stick to ext3 and then mount it as /dev/usbstick
<jrib> yes if you want to
<logmein> omegacenti are you talking about mounting iso files?
<logmein> omegacenti like images of media?
<omegacenti> logmein: that too ^_^
<omegacenti> holy crap linux is powerful.
<omegacenti> Why.. oh why is Microsoft dominant.
<jrib> well you can mount iso's in windows too...
<logmein> dominant?.. last I checked they used linux for msn servers..
<omegacenti> jrib: little hard unless alcohol 120 or Dameon tools
<jrib> true
<omegacenti> I know windows.. I don't knkow linux :)
<jrib> !iso
<omegacenti> logmein: retail consumer. not server/industrial :p
<ubotu> To mount an ISO disc image, type  sudo mount -o loop <ISO-filename> <mountpoint>  - There is a list of useful cd image conversion tools at http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/CD_Image_Conversion - Always verify the ISO using !MD5 before !burning.
<omegacenti> frickin... amazing.
<jrib> logmein: I'm not sure why the data wasn't wiped, but is it working ok now?
<omegacenti> now if only you could mount a file in grub and run it off that.
<omegacenti> Or can you...
<logmein> jrib: yeah its fine
<jrib> great
<omegacenti> jrib: Best op around :)
<logmein> jrib: I just hope it still doesn't have that swap partition somewhere on there but even if it does I might use it instead of my other hard drive for faster loading
<omegacenti> logmein: if Gparted syas it doesn't exist on that hardrive I am not sure but I think it doesn't/
<logmein> I didn't use gparted what does that do?
<omegacenti> logmein: its a gui gnome partition manager :)
<omegacenti> in a terminal type: gksudo gparted
<logmein> I have this empty floppy drive that I need to fill, anyone know of something kool I can format one with?
<omegacenti> I think gparted will do it.
<omegacenti> logmein: Hope you are having as much as I am with linux ^_^
<logmein> oh I use xfce not gnome
<omegacenti> xfce is built off of gnome
<omegacenti> you might still have gparted
<omegacenti> ubuntu and derivatives I think come with gparted default.
<omegacenti> try it and see if you have it
<logmein> nope
<omegacenti> doh
<omegacenti> apt-get install gparted
<omegacenti> good application to have around anyways.
<logmein> what for :P
<omegacenti> I dunno. Because it is nice! :)
<omegacenti> Im going to go read rute.
<logmein> I'm thinking I should some how shove all dev files, compilers, movies, pictures etc into my 249G harddrive then make a slimmed down OS on my main 41G
<omegacenti> It can be done!
<omegacenti> you just have to have the will.
<omegacenti> Right now Im working with 63gig
<logmein> my whole system is 11G
<omegacenti> al the good stuff is on my dekstop harddrive
<omegacenti> mines 6.1
<logmein> I like never delete an installer or anything
<omegacenti> logmein: I don't know how to :)
<logmein> rofl
<omegacenti> right now all I have is my pretty colors and my book of Rute
<logmein> rute?
<omegacenti> !rute
<ubotu> documentation is to be found at http://help.ubuntu.com and http://wiki.ubuntu.com - General linux documentation: http://www.tldp.org - http://rute.2038bug.com
<omegacenti> that last one
<omegacenti> AMAZING read on all things linux
<logmein> umm ok
<omegacenti> thing has so far taught me how to do things I didn't know possible
<logmein> I just read the junk at www.linux.org
<omegacenti> lol
<omegacenti> logmein: is the end all reference. its similar to dummies guide
<logmein> and some fedora handbook I found at bookstore, got it discounted
<omegacenti> ^_^ should have picked up a debian one though... of course I don't know what fedora is but...
<logmein> nah debian sucks, I go ubuntu any day
<omegacenti> logmein: ubuntu is debian based.
<logmein> holy crap that book is huge
<omegacenti> logmein: seriously. just looked at it right? LOL
<logmein> I might check it out
<omegacenti> logmein: name something you have done in linux.. I think its there.
<omegacenti> Grats on finding the Book of Rute.
<logmein> ooh info on dial-in servers just what I've been looking for
<omegacenti> oh and a package you can install is rutebook if you want it locally
<logmein> thx!
<omegacenti> lol grats!
<omegacenti> I have no idea what a dial in server is but I guess I will know when I get there :)
<omegacenti> Im reading the entire book as a project this summer.
<logmein> you ever check out the perl guide they pass about
<logmein> its pretty nice for beginner
<omegacenti> I don't know what perl is
<omegacenti> !perl
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about perl - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<omegacenti> neither does ubotu lol
<logmein> very nice programming language for text manipulation and webpage design etc
<omegacenti> Ah, not much for web page design.
<logmein> its really for anything
<omegacenti> ah
<jrib> heh ubotu doesn't have a perl factoid
<jrib> !python
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about python - try searching on http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/factoids.cgi
<jrib> aww
<omegacenti> I might check it out when I understand linux more
<omegacenti> I felt too sheltered by Windows.
<omegacenti> I moved to linux to expand my horizons.
<logmein> python sucks just use C++ if your going to bother with all that foo
<omegacenti> Also, Double EE doesn't have too terribly an interest in most programming languages (there ARE exceptions to this, I know)
<omegacenti> err EE lol
<omegacenti> its early
<jrib> EEEE
<omegacenti> EEEE the GOD of EE
<omegacenti> The Electrical Engineering of Electrical engineers.. robot pioneer science.. lol
<omegacenti> jrib: I just installed rutebook. is it gui?
<jrib> omegacenti: do:  dpkg -L rutebook
<omegacenti> jrib: what does that do?
<jrib> try it
<omegacenti> what the heckk.. a listing of stuff. apparently from the book
<omegacenti> so its not gui
<jrib> it lists all the files installed
<omegacenti> cool!
<jrib> it probably just puts a bunch of file in /usr/share/doc/rutebook .  If they're html, open them in your browser
<omegacenti> so I can find out what wine installed by doing dpkg -L wine
<jrib> yep
<omegacenti> jrib: I wonder whats the beginning of the book...
<omegacenti> index.html?
<jrib> probably
<omegacenti> lol 9 megs of book. only book.
<omegacenti> roughly similar to 9,000,000 character + formatting?
<omegacenti> hmmm. if I want to open something like rute.pdf.gz what do I do, and what is .gz?
<jrib> gz means it is compressed by gzip
<jrib> like .zip in windows
<omegacenti> ah
<omegacenti> is gzip pretty strong?
<omegacenti> or configurably so?
<omegacenti> I'm looking for the strongest compression (lostless) known to man kind. and if its on linux great :)
<jrib> it does decent compression, bzip2 is the other common one.  bzip2 is slower but compresses better in general
<logmein> it runs fine while being compressed I see no need to do otherwise to my copy
<logmein> bzip2 is slooowwwww
<jrib> omegacenti: you can do 'evince file.pdf.gz' apparently
<omegacenti> savenetradio.org
<logmein> and nearly killed my laptop using it before on a huge file :P
<omegacenti> evince?
<jrib> default pdf viewer in gnome
<logmein> well I got to go
<logmein> omegacenti see you around
<jrib> gnome-open file.pdf.gz  would work too I suppose
<jrib> bye logmein
<logmein> jrib: thx for showing me this other channel
<omegacenti> ah cool
<omegacenti> jrib: So everything knows how to unzip .gz?
<jrib> no
<logmein> omg ubotu here too, stalker!
* logmein hides
<omegacenti> I mean how does evinve know what to do with a .gz?
<omegacenti> lol!
<omegacenti> hold on I have to go call my representatives... Someones trying to screw with my internet radio.
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-06-02
<pembs> could someone explain why i seem to have lost 7GB of space, please. i have 160GB hard drive (ie in reality 149+); i have heron installed and moved in some files gparted confimrs i am using 10Gb plus 5-77 as swap file so i should have 133gb free. iWhen i browse folders though I only have 126 free. I've noticed this since the install I seem to be missing about 7gb.
<blue-frog> pembs: ext3 keeps 5% for root
<pembs> blue-frog: ok thanks, so thats permanently  reserved?
<blue-frog> man tune2fs if you want to have less kept, but beware having some space leftover helps your computer
<pembs> thanks
<pembs> another question. I cant seem to get terminal to see my external drive. the drive mounts and i can use the folders to move things around, but whenever i have typed a terminal command, I can't seem to get it to communicate with the external drive. I did one command, I  can't recall which to tell me the external media and the drive came up in blue
<sobersabre> hola, ompaul
<sobersabre> ompaul: more info on my system: it's a clean install of 8.04 + all upgrades upto today.
<sobersabre> I made sure I've generated the keys AFTRER upgrading the damn sshd
<sobersabre> I've pushed the public and private key to the debian client.
<sobersabre> just in case ubuntu doesn't like debian-generated ones.
<sobersabre> and made them ~/.ssh/id_dsa (As private key), and owned by connecting user, and moded as 600.
<sobersabre> the public key's been added to /root/.ssh/authorized_keys
<sobersabre> I've even created a link /root/.ssh/authorized_keys2
<sobersabre> just in case...
<ompaul> which is the server?
<ompaul> ubuntu is server?
 * ompaul waits a moment
<ompaul> sobersabre, ?
<sobersabre> yep..
<sobersabre> ubuntu is the server.
<sobersabre> debian 4.0 (also updated && upgraded ) is a client, connecting as root
<ompaul> ok so you made a comment about ~/.ssh/id_dsa
<ompaul> personally I use rsa but it should be of no merit ;-)
<sobersabre> ompaul: lemme try rsa...
<sobersabre> if it works, something is fishy in ssh package.
<ompaul> sobersabre, it makes no odds what is wrong is the key is not in right package
<ompaul> sorry
<ompaul> place
<ompaul> sobersabre, firstly openssh-server is running on ubuntu?
<ompaul> sobersabre, remember I don't know what your keystrokes were so I don't know if you got it all right (well obviously you did not ;-()
<sobersabre> ompaul: RSA key worked.
<sobersabre> ha!
<sobersabre> so... it IS a mess in SSH package.
<sobersabre> how do I bugreport ?
<ompaul> launchpad.net
<sobersabre> I think I've got an account there...
<ompaul> you will do if you don't ;-)
<ompaul> hehehe
<ompaul> I'll leave it with you
<ompaul> have fun
<sobersabre> thanks for "holding hands" :)
<sobersabre> I'm pissed off, I thought I'd finish till now something I'm only now starting :(
<sobersabre> I think it should be titled "dsa keys generated by ubuntu-8.04 openssh package are regected as being from vulnerable server.
<ompaul> no it would say that it was rejecting it
<ompaul> what it said was it could not find them
<sobersabre> hmm... it's weirder.
<ompaul> sobersabre, I would nuke the dsa keys and start again
<ompaul> sobersabre, you can't afford to get it wrong
<sobersabre> ompaul: this is not the 1st time or day I am using keys.
<sobersabre> I didn't do any errors on that one.
<sobersabre> I made 3 repeatitions on generation, copy, retry.
<ompaul> sobersabre, you got bug
<sobersabre> so, I am CERTAIN the problem is with DSA handling.
<sobersabre> I don't have time to debug it really.
<sobersabre> so, I've reported.
<sobersabre> ompaul: can you try this, and confirm I'm wrong ?
<sobersabre> I mean try using dsa key, and login as root with it... ?
<ompaul> na I don't do root
<ompaul> at all
<ompaul> ever
<ompaul> my virtual consoles do not allow virtual root
<ompaul> but real ones do :)
<sobersabre> this only means you're surely not into clusters....
<sobersabre> I don't root into open servers.
<sobersabre> but intern. networks, etc. is something else.
<ompaul> sobersabre, I have multiple desktop servers and I server multiple desktops ;-) with ancillary services
<ompaul> so correct I don't do clusters given the geographical nature of the company
<sobersabre> hmmm... whatever the 1st sentence means...
<sobersabre> :)
<ompaul> sobersabre, I don't serve applications much, I serve wmaker desktops or gnome or kde depending on the person / role
<sobersabre> you mean you're running a GDM/XDM over IP ?
<sobersabre> I mean, remote graphic logins...
<sobersabre> or VNC ?
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-06-03
 * persia  will be giving a special packaging lesson on how to package scripts, webapps, and firmware installers in #ubuntu-classroom starting at 15:30 UTC today.
<persia> Welcome to the special session on packaging scripts, webapps, firmware installers, and other things without code.
<persia> First off, let's take a quick attendance.  Please indicate your presence.
 * sebner hugs persia =)
 * Iulian waves
<mok0> here
<albert23> +1
<schmiedc> here
 * ssweeny coughs
<persia> Great.  We've passed the quorum of 5 active students :)
<sebner> persia: what if there would be less?
<lukehasnoname> >_>
<persia> So, this is about packaging those special types of package that don't have any source.
<persia> sebner: I'd reschedule.
<sebner> persia: kk
<persia> The important thing to consider is how the typical meanings of "source package" and "binary package" apply in these cases.
<amikrop> Hello. I will be away, but logging.
<persia> There typically isn't anything to compile, and you just want to put the files on the target system.
<persia> So, at a high level, a "source" package is the set of files that is used to edit and maintain a package.
<persia> A "binary" package is the set of files that get installed on a user system.
<persia> Even where most of the files are the same, it is useful to maintain this distinction, because there may be some files (README, COPYING, etc.) that don't need to be installed on a user system.
<persia> Also, there may be special configuration changes that need to be applied to a user system, but which are not required for development.
<persia> By keeping separate source and binary packages, it becomes very easy to separate these files into the appropriate places, and improves the experience for both users and developers.
<persia> This is true even though the binary package may not have any actual binaries.
<persia> As an example, we're going to package the very simple script from http://paste.ubuntu.com/16605/
<persia> Now, the first thing to notice is that upstream didn't license this script properly, so we need to ask upstream for a license.
<mok0> so, see you next week?
<sebner> lol
<persia> (three months pass)
<persia> So upstream finally provides http://paste.ubuntu.com/16607/
<persia> This, we can package.
<persia> as upstream just sent us the script in a pastebin, we'll need to create an orig.tar.gz ourselves.
<persia> So we create a directory hello-host-0.1
<persia> And we copy the script into the directory, and call it hello-host.
<persia> We then tar and compress the directory, and get hello-host-0.1.tar.gz
<persia> This needs to be renamed to hello-host_0.1.orig.tar.gz.
<persia> After we have the orig.tar.gz, we can start the packaging.
<persia> First, we'll create a debian/ directory.
<persia> Our first target will be copyright.
<persia> This needs to include information about the package license.
<persia> As this package doesn't have a homepage, we can get away with something simple.
<persia> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16608/
<persia> (Note that those preferring machine-readable debian/copyright are welcome to do it that way)
<persia> (in fact, if someone wants to draft that, and post for the rest of the class, it would be appreciated)
<persia> Next, we'll need a debian/control.  This is again fairly simple.  Just use the minimum information.
<persia> I recommend using CDBS for this type of package, only because it means less typing, although those familiar with debhelper 7 may find that as easy a choice.
<mok0> aie
<persia> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16609/ is a quick debian/control for our package.
<persia> Note that because it's just scripts, and we're not using any special handlers, we have to set all the Dependencies manually.
<persia> In this case, it's a bash script, so we depend on bash.
<sebner> persia: is that necessary?
<mok0> bash is in the minimal installation
<persia> sebner: I'm actually not sure.  I know bash is no longer the default /bin/sh, but I don't know if it is still Priority: Essential.
<mok0> ok
<persia> For something like a PHP script, it is much more important.
<sebner> ok
<mok0> we can convert it php later :-)
<mok0> to php
<persia> mok0: Right :)
<persia> So, for this example, I'm using CDBS, so debian/rules looks like http://paste.ubuntu.com/16610/
<persia> I use this mostly because I don't want to think about it, and will use the implied debhelper calls for most things.
<persia> Now comes the important part: this needs to be installed somewhere.
<persia> This is handled by the implied call to dh_install.
<persia> We create a debian/install file that specifies where the files go.  Our example is http://paste.ubuntu.com/16611/
<persia> Now this directory doesn't exist yet, so we need a debian/dirs to create it (http://paste.ubuntu.com/16612/)
<persia> OOps.  I made a mistake with debian/install.  It should really have been http://paste.ubuntu.com/16613/
<persia> It is important not to have the leading / to make sure that it installs in the package, instead of the developer's system.
<persia> Now we have a package that installs the scripts into the right places, and has all the necessary bits to make a good package.
<persia> There are still a couple pieces missing: we probably want to create a manual page, as otherwise lintian will complain, and we'll never get it past REVU.
<persia> If we're packaging a firmware installer, or something that needs to initialise a database, we might want to do something with debconf or maintainer scripts.
<persia> And so on.
<persia> Now, any questions?
<sebner> not yet =)
<sebner> *silence*
<persia> OK.  If there are no questions, I presume that you all are prepared to package random bash scripts, quick python bits, and so on.
<sebner> persia: that was it?
<persia> If you get as far as trying to package an entire Ruby-on-Rails application, don't forget to install the necessary integration hooks for the webservers, and handle the DB startup and cleanup in the maintainer scripts.
<persia> sebner: Yep.  Packaging scripts is pretty easy.  Once the files are installed in the right place, the user is typically happy.
<sebner> great
 * sebner hugs persia :)
<schmiedc> so but how do i know what i have to write in the certain scripts
<persia> The really tricky bit is understanding the difference between a "source" package and a "binary" package when the "binary" package looks like it contains source.
<persia> schmiedc: Which scripts?
<schmiedc> for example the debian/control
<persia> schmiedc: OK.  We created debian/copyright, debian/control, debian/rules, debian/changelog, and debian/install.
<persia> debian/rules can almost always be just the two lines for script packages.
<persia> debian/install is set up based on where the files need to end up.  This is usually available in the upstream documentation.
<persia> Oh, and I forgot about debian/dirs.
<persia> debian/dirs needs to include all the directories used in debian/install.
<persia> debian/changelog is best created with dch --create
<persia> debian/copyright is often just a quick summary of: who packaged it and when, the authors, the copyright holders, the upstream license, and the packaging license.
<persia> debian/control is a bit trickier.  Let's look at http://paste.ubuntu.com/16609/ carefully.
<persia> There are two stanzas, the source stanza and the binary stanza
<persia> The source stanza describes the source package, and the binary stanza the binary package.
<persia> For the source stanza, you need to set the Source: header to be the name of the package.
<persia> The Section header should match one of the package sections
 * persia digs for the URL
<persia> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-subsections
<persia> Priority is almost always "optional" for new packages, although it can be "extra" if it breaks something (try not to do this)
<persia> The Maintainer is the person responsible for the package.
<persia> Build-Depends should be "cdbs": you shouldn't need anything else for a simple scripts package.
<albert23> should debhelper be added?
<persia> Standards-Version: should match whatever the current standards are when you package it.
<persia> albert23: It's not required, as cdbs depends on debhelper.
<albert23> lintian complained
<persia> If you use a feature from a newer debhelper than the version depended upon by CDBS, you can add a versioned depends.
<persia> albert23: You remind me, it's a good idea to add a debian/compat file containing any of "5", "6", or "7".
<albert23> that was the other lintian complaint indeed
<persia> In which case, you want to add "debhelper (>= 5)" (or 6 or 7) to your Build-Depends.
<persia> albert23: Thanks for checking :)
<persia> Now, for the binary stanza, we again have the package name
<persia> scripts are always Architecture: all
<persia> As mentioned previously, you need to manually set the Depends: depending on what the scripts require.  I tend to always include ${misc:Depends} just in case some of the CDBS magic requires something.
<persia> And the Description is as normal.
<persia> more information about writing control files is available from http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html
<schmiedc> ok thxc
<persia> schmiedc: Does that answer it?
<schmiedc> but architecture would be i368 and so on or?
<schmiedc> yes
<schmiedc> the thing is that i concider about getting involved
<schmiedc> and haven't done any work yet
<persia> schmiedc: No point.  As these are just scripts, it ought be architecture: all.  That way they can work for anyone, regardless of their architecture (as long as they meet the Depends)
<persia> Any other questions?
<schmiedc> yes but for other packages
<sebner> schmiedc: #ubuntu-motu ;)
<persia> schmiedc: Oh, sure, for non-script packages, you might need to set architectures.  "any" is a good choice.
<schmiedc> am there ..
<schmiedc> ok
<persia> Any other questions?  Iulian?
<schmiedc> not yet ..
<persia> ssweeny:?
<mok0> I think, for consistency, it is better to name install and dirs -> <package>.install and <package>.dirs
<schmiedc> when should the next lesson take place?
<persia> mok0: It works either way, but sure.
<schmiedc> or to mention in the beginning to replace debian/ with the packages name
<persia> schmiedc: I tend to do ad-hoc lessons.  You might check the MOTU School schedule on the wiki.
<schmiedc> ok
<persia> schmiedc: No, you use debian/$(pacakgename).install and debian/$(packagename).dirs, etc.
<schmiedc> ok
<mok0> schmiedc: debian/ is sacred
<schmiedc> where is a good place to look for simple upstreams to play with?
<persia> schmiedc: http://bashscripts.org/ has heaps of samples, although many are not suitable for packaging
<schmiedc> ok
<persia> http://www.scripts.com/ has some python and perl (but be careful, some of these may be more than scripts)
<schmiedc> ok thx
<schmiedc> should be enought for today
<persia> On the other hand, aside from experimentation (for which variations on hello-host work just fine), you'd do best to wait until you found something so useful you didn't know how you worked without it before packaging it for general release.
<schmiedc> have to do something for school
 * persia rings the 300 second bell
<persia> Any last questions?
<schmiedc> so you mean i should beginn straight with packaging for releases?
<mok0> schmiedc: you can create a PPA on launchpad
<persia> schmiedc: If you have something worthwhile to package, why not?
<schmiedc> PPAA?
<schmiedc> PPA*
<persia> Thanks to everyone for attending, even with the short notice.  Good luck with your script packaging, and don't hesitate to ask in #ubuntu-motu if you have any further questions.
<schmiedc> whats PPA?
<albert23> thanks persia
<schmiedc> thanks
<mok0> schmiedc: personal package archive
<schmiedc> where do i create one?
<mok0> schmiedc: on Launchpad.net
<schmiedc> have an account ..
<schmiedc> oh here
<schmiedc> found it :)
<mok0> schmiedc: :-)
<mok0> schmiedc: you upload a "source package"
<mok0> schmiedc: it compiles and publishes it for you
<schmiedc> nice
<mok0> schmiedc: yes, really cool
<persia> (or if it's a script, it organises it for user-release and publishes it for you)
<mok0> schmiedc: so you can distribute apt-get'able software
<sebner> persia: overtime ^^
<persia> sebner: Yeah, well.  Give me an apple!
<schmiedc> gg
<mok0> sebner: give persia a Mac
<sebner> rofl rofl rofl
<Iulian> Ahh
<Anon234> d
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-06-06
<it-linux> hello?
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-06-07
<bod_> hi, i was reading the wiki team about ubuntero contributers and was wondering how to get involved, the wiki pointed me here. ;~)
<Bodsda> wiki "MOTU" team
<TheSHizz> would anyone here be willing to help me or guide me in the right direction to someone or something that could help me?
<Megaqwerty1> Possibly, what's the problem?
<TheSHizz> I've got some avi files that I want to split into chapters for easier managment and burn to a dvd
<TheSHizz> but i'm having difficulty finding something I can do this with
<TheSHizz> I knew how this was done in XP but i've completely made the switch and that is no longer an option
<Megaqwerty> I have a program in mind, let me see if it can do that for you.
<TheSHizz> thank you
<Megaqwerty> Alright, there's a program called "devede" which you can get from synaptic. It's a DVD creation program, and when you load a file in the "Advanced Options" it has an option under "Misc" which allows you to split the file into chapters every x minutes.
<Megaqwerty> Alright, there's a program called "devede" which you can get from synaptic. It's a DVD creation program, and when you load a file, go to the "Advanced Options" it has an option under "Misc" which allows you to split the file into chapters every x minutes.
<Megaqwerty> ^^missed a comma
<TheSHizz> ok
<TheSHizz> I have that
<TheSHizz> I downloaded it from package manager
<TheSHizz> but I did not check the misc
<TheSHizz> Thank you
<Megaqwerty> You're quite welcome. Have a good day!
<TheSHizz> you too
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-06-01
<G__81> hi pleia2
<G__81> pleia2, since i didnt receive your email. I do kernel development but not in the community but i work on the kernel for my company
<G__81> i work on the networking subsystem part of it
<G__81> i guess those sort of sessions would be useful for people
<G__81> really
<G__81> your suggestions ?
<Paddy_EIRE> Hey could anyone tell me where I can get my hands on the ubuntu-classroom .ics ?
<Paddy_EIRE> calendar
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-06-02
<DomH> date -u
<somaunn> hello everyone
<shriven> wondering if anyone in here may be able to answer a simple packaging question?
<persia> shriven, Try asking in #ubuntu-motu: that's usually the best channel for interactive questions about packaging.
<shriven> great, thanks
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-06-03
<gee9043> hei
<gee9043> some ppl here?
<gee9043> ubuntu
<gee9043> hei
<gee9043> some there?
<gee9043> 2123s15f315sg151s65
* You're now known as ubuntulog
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-06-04
<maxpaguru> salve here i am
<RockyRoad> !seen mvo
<ubot2> I have no seen command
<dholbach> <dholbach> hello everybody
<dholbach>  I just tried calling mvo, to no avail... I hope he's OK still
<dholbach>  shall we make this an impromptu Q&A session about Ubuntu Development and Packaging instead?
<dholbach>  who's here for the session?
<dholbach> don't be shy... raise your hands! :-))
<juanje> me! :-)
 * micahg is here :)
 * juanje hugs dholbach ;-)
<ara> o/
 * dholbach hugs y'all back :)
<mbudde> o/
<dholbach> do you have any questions about ubuntu development, about packaging, maybe even a specific problem that you're dealing with at the moment... some general thoughts about how ubuntu development works? anything we could help out with?
<maxpaguru> Â°/
 * juanje thinking about....
<micahg> I had a build fail on me
<micahg> but I think it was because a patch was out of date
<dholbach> micahg: do you have a build log somewhere?
<micahg> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/27434400/buildlog_ubuntu-jaunty-i386.acidbase_1.4.3.1-0ubuntu1~ppa1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<dholbach> let's see
<dholbach> yes
<dholbach> dpatch  apply-all
<dholbach> applying patch 01_default_config to ./ ... ok.
<dholbach> applying patch 02_update_external_links to ./ ... failed.
<micahg> I didn't check the patches before uploading
<dholbach> that's because a patch is out of date
<micahg> ok
<micahg> I'll look into it another time
<dholbach> does everybody know what dpatch is and how it works?
<maxpaguru> not so much ;)
<dholbach> great :)
<juanje> a bit
<dholbach> so dpatch is one of the patch systems we use for packaging
<dholbach> because we don't use distributed development with a clear history of changes for everything yet
<dholbach> it sometimes makes sense to separate out patches
<dholbach> so let's say you're packaging a huge piece of upstream software and the software authors do one release every year
<dholbach> in that case you might come into a situation where you need to make changes their code or backport fixes
<dholbach> it can get very hard to stay on top of what's happening and who changed what if you just apply all changes directly on the source
<dholbach> that's why some package maintainers decide to put separate patches (one for every issue) into the debian/patches directory
<dholbach> acidbase, as micahg mentioned above, makes use of dpatch
<dholbach> 01_default_config seems to make some changes to the default configuration, and applies fine
<dholbach> 02_update_external_links unfortunately doesn't
<dholbach> the way that dpatch works is quite simple
<dholbach> you basically just run:
<dholbach>    dpatch-edit-patch 03-new-patch-that-fixes-bug-1234567
<dholbach> and it will open a new shell environment, where you can make all kind of changes
<dholbach> when you hit Ctrl-D to close the shell, it will create a new file called debian/patches/03-new-patch-that-fixes-bug-1234567.patch
<dholbach> that includes the diff of what you just did
<dholbach> then you add 03-new-patch-that-fixes-bug-1234567 to debian/patches/00list (for internal housekeeping) and it will automatically get applied during the build
<dholbach> does that make sense?
<mbudde> Yes it does :)
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/PatchSystems#dpatch maybe makes it a bit clearer
<RockyRoad> nice tool :)
<dholbach> (and has a quick example)
<maxpaguru> yes indeed!
<dholbach> dpatch apply-all / dpatch unapply-all are useful commands too
<dholbach> I hope one day we can get rid of all patch systems when we have full source imports in bzr though and keep track of all the history in there
<mbudde> Is there a preferred patch system (dpatch, quilt, ...) or does that depend on the package?
<dholbach> mbudde: I think it depends on what the package maintainer likes best
<dholbach> quilt seems to be the new black right now, but I really never grew to like it :)
<micahg> wow
<micahg> dpatch-edit-patch is cool
<micahg> it does it all for you :)
<dholbach> as nice as patch systems are for housekeeping (backport fix to version A, delete patch file, when version A+1 gets out), a bzr merge <upstream branch> is much more obvious :-)
<dholbach> I guess we should have James Westby here as a speaker again, he's the man when it comes to distributed development :)
<dholbach> do we have any other questions?
<mbudde> I have a problem with a package I'm updating.
<micahg> is there a way to set a default key for signing with debuild?
<dholbach> micahg: yes, hang on
<mbudde> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/27276693/buildlog_ubuntu-jaunty-i386.purple-plugin-pack_2.5.1-0ubuntu1~ppa3~jaunty_FULLYBUILT.txt.gz
<dholbach> something like this in your .bashrc should do the trick:
<dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
<dholbach> export DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'
<dholbach> (and make sure that email address is a key id on your gpg key)
<micahg> dholbach: I have 2 keys for the one address
<micahg> don't ask...
<mbudde> I get a whole lot of dpkg-shlibdeps warnings, is there any way to stop that?
<mbudde> Or is it a problem at all?
<dholbach> micahg: I think you can specify the key id somewhere, but I'd need to look it up
<micahg> ok
<micahg> I know I can do it on the command line
<dholbach> mbudde: that looks more like an upstream problem to me - it might make sense to have a chat with the upstream authors about it
<mbudde> Ok :)
<dholbach> mbudde: but those warnings are not critical at all
<dholbach> there might be something wrong with the linking (sorry, I'm no expert there)
<dholbach> do we have any more questions... maybe more general questions?
<dholbach> mbudde, micahg: good work - I'm happy you're working on some packaging stuff already
<mbudde> It's fun! :)
<dholbach> is there anything you'd like me to talk about a bit?
<mbudde> What about getting stuff back into debian?
<maxpaguru> i'd like to know how to use bugs in LP
<dholbach> mbudde: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Debian/Bugs (there's the 'submittodebian' tool in ubuntu-dev-tools which makes forwarding patches really easy)
<micahg> I just started :)
<dholbach> mbudde: now is a really good time to forward stuff to debian: we're merging lots and lots of packages right now and if you see a delta that could as well go to debian, forward it
<dholbach> maxpaguru: can you elaborate? what kind of bugs?
<dholbach> or is there anything in particular that you're wondering about?
<maxpaguru> how to handle bugs in general , from where to begin , i'm a very newby;)
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> so let's say you found a simple bug that you want to work on and fix it
<dholbach> you'd go and download the current source package by running   apt-get source package-you-want-to-fix
<dholbach> then you'd make the simple change in the source tree
<dholbach> then you'd document it, by running      dch -i
<dholbach> you'd add a new changelog entry, properly explain what you did to fix it
<dholbach> and add    (LP: #1234567)   to the changelog entry
<dholbach> with the bug number of the bug you're working on
<dholbach> (ah... before that you'd probably assign the bug to yourself and set the status to 'in progress')
<micahg> indeed
<dholbach> then you'd run        debuild -S      to regenerate the source package
<micahg> dholbach: why not make it a patch?
<dholbach> micahg: I'll get to that in a bit
<micahg> ok
<micahg> :)
<dholbach> then you'd test-build the package (you could use pbuilder for that: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto)
<MaWaLe> sorry for interferring : where can i find the log of the classroom (i missed it :( )
<dholbach> MaWaLe: https://irclogs.ubuntu.com - it gets updated every now and then
<MaWaLe> thx dholbach :)
<dholbach> also I'll put it up later at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training/Logs
<micahg> approx every hour
<dholbach> then you'd test the resulting package, make sure the bug is really fixed
<maxpaguru> dholbach: Thanks where the tutorial links to that stuff . are there?
<dholbach> then you'd run
<dholbach>    debdiff package-you-want-to-fix_old-version.dsc package-you-want-to-fix_new-version.dsc > package-you-want-to-fix.debdiff
<dholbach> this would generate the full patch (in package-you-want-to-fix.debdiff), that you could attach to the bug report
<dholbach> then you'd subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors (if the package is in main/restricted) or ubuntu-universe-sponsors (if it's in universe/multiverse)
<dholbach> and somebody will take care of reviewing it and uploading it for you
<dholbach> the nice thing about "(LP: #1234567)" is that the bug will automatically gets closed, when the package is accepted
<dholbach> the docs for that are available at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/Debdiff
<dholbach> AndrewGe1: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<dholbach> sorry AndrewGe1 - automatic tab completion
<dholbach> maxpaguru: did that make sense so far?
<maxpaguru> dholbach: great it's much clearer!
<dholbach> awesome!
<dholbach> any more questions? :)
<juanje> dholbach: so, the better way to fix a bug is with a debdiff? I missed the UDS' session about patches, debdiff, branches and I was wondering which one would be the better way. I usualy try to attach a bzr branch with the fixes so the maintainer can merge the changes
<juanje> but I don't know if this is the better way
<dholbach> juanje: if the package is in bzr already, the branch is probably the better option
<juanje> dholbach: ok
<maxpaguru> dholbach: I understand , it's clear i have to follow these steps one by one in detail. tnx so much
<juanje> dholbach: and how the changelog should be changed in a debdiff?
<dholbach> juanje: in that case, you could do something like:    bzr push --fixes lp:1234567 lp:~juanje/package-you-want-to-fix/my-fix
<juanje> dholbach: yeah, make sense, thanks :-)
<dholbach> juanje: if you ran   dch -i    before, you added an entry in the changelog, which will turn up in the debdiff file
<maxpaguru> where to find bzr tutorial?
<dholbach> hang on
<juanje> dholbach: yes, but I mean if you write it like you were writting your onw package or as other people (the maintainer) will change it after?
<dholbach> maxpaguru: http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/bzr.dev/en/mini-tutorial/index.html
<dholbach> for general bzr use
<dholbach> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation for use in the packaging / ubuntu development context
<maxpaguru> ok ;)
<dholbach> juanje: I'm not quite sure I understand - can you give me an example?
<juanje> maxpaguru: this could be useful as well: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BzrMaintainerHowto
<juanje> dholbach: yeah, sorry, I didn't explain myself well....
<juanje> dholbach: what I mean is that when you fix some package
<juanje> and it's not yours
<juanje> do you have to "propose" a changelog?
<maxpaguru> juanje: thanks I'll follow all those links!
<juanje> or write the changelog as the final one
<juanje> ?
<dholbach> we don't have the concept of "package maintainer" in Ubuntu
<dholbach> so we all maintain all packages as a team
<juanje> ummmmm
<juanje> ok
<juanje> :-)
<dholbach> so it definitely helps if you add a changelog entry
<juanje> dholbach: but, if you are not MOTU or so?
<dholbach> juanje: then you still add a changelog entry and put up the full debdiff (or branch) for review through sponsorship
<juanje> ok
<juanje> understood :-)
<dholbach> perfect
<dholbach> it's important that you put a lot of effort into documenting your changes
<dholbach> I usually write changelog entries like this:
<maxpaguru> Bye everyone I'll see the log later :-)
<dholbach>   * src/something.c, src/something.h: remove all occurrences of "frobnicator", changes taken from upstream SVN commit 1542, fixes the build again (LP: #638153)
<dholbach> that way people will see: which files you changed, what you changed, why you changed it and that the upstream developers did the same thing, plus you close the current Ubuntu bug
<dholbach> it's important we do that, because as I said above: we all maintain packages as a team
<juanje> dholbach: I usually write the changes on the bzr log and when I make changelog entry in it, but I had some doubts about if then the maintainer had to rewrite it (also maybe changing the version or so). Actually my doubts were more about the version you put to the changelog entry
<dholbach> so the next uploader of the package doesn't have to guess why you did a certain change
<dholbach> ... or you won't have to guess your intentions half a year later :)
<juanje> dholbach: agree :-)
<dholbach> juanje: usually dch -i should do the right thing
<juanje> it's very important :-)
<juanje> ok
<dholbach> juanje: if you add a new changelog entry and run debcommit afterwards, it will use that changelog entry for the bzr commit message :)
<dholbach> ...two bird with one stone...
<juanje> ummmm
<juanje> I swa something about debcommit, but I haven't try yet
<dholbach> juanje: you have a question?
<dholbach> it's good stuff :)
<juanje> I think, I'll try :-)
<dholbach> rock on
<dholbach> ok... thanks everybody! if you have any more questions, please feel free to join #ubuntu-motu and ask questions there
<dholbach> we're happy to help you out!
<juanje> dholbach: thanks for all!
<juanje> :-)
<dholbach> mvo's session will be rescheduled - I'll let you all know about the session in a bit
<dholbach> thanks everyone and have a great day!
<RockyRoad> thx dholbach :)
<mbudde> dholbach, thank you!
<dholbach> my pleasure :)
<maxpaguru> thanks to dholbach and everyone! :-)
<ara> mvo session will be today at 15:00UTC
<ara> more details on the planet today :)
<juanje> mbudde: do you have some where the code from the package you got the fail?
<juanje> ara: thanks :-)
<juanje> mbudde: I have some ideas about the warnings I like to confirm. I you don't mind
<mbudde> juanje, great! :) You can get the package from my PPA: https://launchpad.net/~mbudde/+archive/ppa
<juanje> mbudde: thanks :-) I tell you latter ;-)
<mbudde> juanje, if I'm not online please do send me an email
<juanje> mbudde: sure ;-)
<ricecom> too late.. :(
<ricecom> bye
<Metralha> This session was too early for me...:(
 * MaWaLe is away: brb
 * MaWaLe is back (gone 00:01:34)
<ia> hello. could you tell me, please - the next classroom about packaging will be in 6:00 UTC pm? or it has been already at 6:00 am?
* nhandler changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-classroom || Upcoming: 4 June, 15:00 UTC: Make Your Package Upgrade Correctly; 11 June, 12:00 UTC: Java library packaging || Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time
<nhandler> ia: The next packaging training session is at 15:00 UTC today due to a scheduling conflict
<mvo_> hello!
<mvo> welcome everyone - and sorry that I could not make it this morning
<mvo> and a special thanks to dholbach for doing a Q&A
<dholbach> mvo: no worries :)
 * iulian m00s
<mvo> I'm going to talk about how to make package upgrade cleanly
<mvo> I will give a overview on the common problems I see when looking at upgrade failure logs
<toabctl> hi
<mvo> on the bright side: dpkg/apt tend to do pretty well - but if stuff goes wrong recoverying is not a great user experience
<mvo> so we should try to make sure that stuff does not get wrong :)
<keffie_jayx> o/
<mvo> (and improve our tools to deal better with failures)
<mvo> if you have any questions or special topics that you would like to talk about, just ask here (or in #ubuntu-classroom-chat)
<Rinia> hello everybody
<mvo> I prepared some notes, if there are no questions/comments I will just paste a bit into the channel
<keffie_jayx> :D
<mvo> = How to make packages upgrade cleanly =
<mvo> Normal deb packages usually upgrade just fine, dpkg takes care of all the heavy lifting and shuffling of files. The most common source of problem on upgrades are:
<mvo> â¢ file overwrite problems (e.g. when a package was split)
<mvo> â¢ maintainer script problems
<mvo> A general good advise is to keep the amount of code in the maintainer script small and clean. Shell is a language that can be tricky and a failure in the script will make the upgrade abort and gives the user a bad experience.
<mvo> the most common source of overwrite problems are caused by package splits
<dholbach> mvo: why are package split? does that happen very often? is ther an example? :-)
<mvo> but they can also happen if two package just happen to install the same file into the same location. if that can not be avoided (e.g. by changeing the program to look into a different location) the package can not be installed in parallel and should conflict
<mvo> for a package split we use a different technique
<mvo> dholbach: thanks, I give a example now :)
<mvo> == Package splits ==
<mvo> If a package foo gets split into two packages like foo and foo-common there needs to be a "Replaces" line in the "foo-common" package. The reason is that on upgrade, the new package "foo-common" may get installed when the old "foo" is still installed. Because the foo-common has files that belong to the old foo dpkg will complain if the proper "Replaces" line is missing.
<dholbach> woohoo
<mvo> this is pretty common for projects that start out as e.g. update-manager and then later grow new frontends (like udpate-manager-text). then the package typically gets split into update-manager-common, update-manager-gtk, update-manager-text etc
<mvo> Example:
<mvo>  foo 1.0 is a big package
<mvo>  foo 1.1 is split into foo and foo-common
<mvo> foo-common now needs a line:
<mvo> Replaces: foo (<< 1.1)
<mvo> to ensure that if the new foo-common is unpacked before the foo package is upgraded everything still works as expected.
<neurobuntu> how does (<< 1.1) differ from (< 1.1) ?
<mvo> neurobuntu: the "<" is a older (and now deprecated way) of expressing the same. it used to mean earlier-or-equal
<mvo> neurobuntu: but its a bit confusing, this is why "<<" and "<=" etc are now used
<mvo> The most common case is something like the following for "foo":
<mvo> Depends: foo-data (= ${source:Version})
<mvo> This means that dpkg needs to unpack foo-data first before it unpacks the new foo. So without the Replaces line above it will not work.
<neurobuntu> ok thanks
<mvo> cheers
<mvo> any questions on this particular bit (splitting/overwrite problems)?
<mvo> I should note that we have a system that can check for file conflicts in the archive, but its currently in the need for some bugfixing
<dholbach> what is a good way to test if my packages upgrade well? is  dpkg -i *.deb  good enough?
<mvo> dholbach: yes, that is a good way. its a good way of testing before a upload to make sure the current version is installed
<mvo> and then install the new package like this
<mvo> the good news is that for the common case (package just got some new files/some old files got removed) dpkg will do everything
<mvo> and we do not have to worry
<mvo> testing is always good, its pretty anoying if a forgoten "fi" in a maintainer script causes problems later :)
<mvo> which brings me to the next topic:
<mvo> == Maintainer script problems ==
<mvo> We have two classes of issues here
<mvo> one are "just" bugs
<mvo> a forgoten "fi"
<mvo> the use of bash syntax (like "==")
<mvo> instead of POSIX (which expects "=")
<mvo> etc
<mvo> (we use dash as /bin/sh so we need to be careful with that, some other distros do not have this problem)
<mvo> the other class of problems is that the system is in a flux during a complex upgrade (like a upgrade from 6.06 -> 8.04 :)
<dholbach> mvo: what are maintainer scripts? is there a good way to test them? :)
<mvo> dholbach: good point, sorry for using jargon :)
<dholbach> (I hope everybody else feels free to pester mvo with questions too and it's not just me. :-))
<mvo> maintainer scripts are the scripts known as: "prerm, postrm, preinst, postinst"
<mvo> they are run as part of the package installation
<toabctl> mvo, are they makefiles? or just shellscripts?
<mvo> they can contain any shell code and are used for stuff like "ldconfig"
<mvo> toabctl: usually shell scripts, some contain perl too (notable stuff that uses debhelper)
<neurobuntu> when upgrading a package, are the prerm and postrm run (almost like the old package is removed before the new is installed)?
<mvo> neurobuntu: yes they are. I have a example for this in a bit, it can become relatively complex
<mvo> a maintaner script may alter the system state in any way, this is why we do not support rollbacks or downgrades in a general way. because it may simply be not possible to undo (or know) what a maintainer script did
<mvo> (but that is just a side note :)
<dholbach> mvo: is there any way to test them or do I just re-install the package to see if it worked?
<mvo> dholbach: they can be tested by running them with the approprate arguments (simulating the way they are called by dpkg). this can be very helpful, especially when run with "sh -x" to see line by line what is actually happening
<mvo> I will give a example for this
<mvo> Problems here are usually caused by the fact that the system is in a pretty unusual state during a upgrade. Some packages are half-installed, some are not available etc. Maintainer scripts should not make too many assumptions about the system because during a upgrade those may well be wrong. A script should gracefully whenever possible.
<mvo> Its useful to know how maintainer scripts get called:
<mvo> http://debid.vlsm.org/share/Debian-Doc/debian-policy/ch-maintainerscripts.html has all the details in Section "6.5".
<mvo> The way apt works is that it splits the changes into dpkg runs that get called with "--unpack" and then "--configure". On a typical upgrade, this is:
<mvo> Unpack:
<mvo> â¢  old-prerm upgrade new-version
<mvo> â¢ new-preinst upgrade old-version
<mvo> â¢ files from the new package are now in place
<mvo> â¢ old-postrm upgrade new-version
<mvo> Configure:
<mvo> â¢ postinst configure most-recently-configured-version
<mvo> neurobuntu: I hope the table below anser the earlier question
<neurobuntu> yes it does
<mvo> so quite a bit of script that are run :)
<mvo> and if something goes wrong, it gets even more complext, if e.g. the old-prerm fails, the new-prm is called
<neurobuntu> what is the logic behing running the new preinst and copying the new files before running the old-postrm
<mvo> this can be useful when recovering from a mistake in a maitainer script
<mvo> neurobuntu: a good question. I currently do not have a good example, generally the postrm is there to do final cleanup
<mvo> useful for e.g. update-menu or something similar that updates the debian menu and needs the new menu files to get reliable data
<mvo> (not the best example in the world I guess :)
<mvo> The time between unpack and configure can be pretty long (on release upgrades) because apt tries to put as much work into a single dpkg run as possible (to speed things up, dpkg invocation is slow).
<Rail> FYI, detailed information about maintainer scripts can be found at http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-maintainerscripts.html
<mvo> Rail: thanks! especially section 6.6 is interessting here
<mvo> This can be tricky if critical functionality relies on the work that is done in configure. A example is python when the symlinks get removed in preinst and re-created in postinst. This means that the package python functionality is not available during a release upgrade (people can not play certain gnome-games ;) Its also common for daemons that stop in preinst and start again in postinst). Often this is unavoidable, but it should be kept
<mvo>  in mind when thinking about the package maintainer scripts.
<mvo> generally I would recommend writing small and simple maintainer scripts if at all possible, the less complexity the less likely are bugs :)
<dholbach> mvo: is there a way to avoid maintainer scripts easily?
<mvo> debhelper takes care of a lot of this
<mvo> e.g. the ldconfig scripts are all auto generated
<mvo> or the python magic
<mvo> or init stuff
<dholbach> or is there a way around having to write (really good) shell scripts? :)
<mvo> and thats good, auto-generated code is nice because it needs to be fixed only in one place if a errorr is found
<mvo> another new development is the increased use of triggers
<neurobuntu> triggers?
<mvo> triggers are a way to express a interessted in a certain directory for example
<mvo> its a relatively new concept
<neurobuntu> ok i'll be sure to read up on them
<mvo> a package like e.g. "man-db" tells dpkg that its interessed in changes in /usr/share/man
<mvo> and everytime a file is installed there, dpkg will notice that and mark the trigger as pending
<mvo> then dpkg will run the pending triggers at the end
<mvo> (or when needed)
<mvo> so it runs the man-db.postinst with "triggered" as argument
<mvo> and the man-db package then processes the new man-pages and builds a db from them
<neurobuntu> so man-db says its interested in /usr/share/man I install package foo which installs /usr/shar/man/foo.man and then dpkg runs the man-db.postinst?
<mvo> this is a very useful concept because it means that mandb can be run when everything else got installed (needs to be run only once)
<mvo> neurobuntu: yes
<neurobuntu> wow thats really slick!
<mvo> neurobuntu: re "configure" (from #ubuntu-classroom-chat")
<mvo> the configure here is something different, it just shares the same name with the autotools configure
<mvo> dpkg roughtly splits a package into "unpacked" and "configured"
<mvo> unpack means the files are in place
<mvo> configured means that the package is actually usable
<mvo> the switches are "dpkg --unpack $long_list_of_packages"
<mvo> and dpkg --configure $long_list_of_packages"
<mvo> in a way, this is a performance optimization to avoid having to call dpkg too often
<mvo> each time dpkg is run it builds a (internal) database of all installed files and the relations
<mvo> that can be time consuming
<mvo> so the less times dpkg needs to be called, the better
<neurobuntu> ok that makes sense...  forgive me if you answered this earlier but after the files are in place (dpkg --unpack),  preinst gets run?
<neurobuntu> or are all the preinst scripts run before the unpack happens and then all the postinst scripts are run?
<mvo> neurobuntu: the preinst script gets run before the new files are in place. this can cause bugs, we had a package that tried to start a daemon in preinst, but the daemon was not on disk yet, so the package was not installable (or rather, installed, but always gave a error message)
<mvo> ia: thanks for your question - this is a tricky one
<neurobuntu> ok thanks
<neurobuntu> this is making sense
<mvo> ia: the python problem we had were hard to reproduce because the system is in so much of a flux during a upgrade. its tricky to get this right. in my experience jaunty-final did pretty well and the cases of failure were rare
<mvo> but its a good example why complexity in maintainer scripts is generally something that may not work so well
<mvo> because its hard to predict the environment in which the script is run, that may depend on the installed packages on the system that is upgraded etc
<mvo> very hard to reproduce
<mvo> what we can  do now is upgrade-testing on real HW
<mvo> there is a update-manager --sandbox switch
<mvo> for jaunty->karmic upgrades
<mvo> that will perform a upgrade into a writeable filesystem snapshot in /tmp - but it keeps the real system unchanged (or rather, restores it on the next reboot)
<mvo> this is quite useful to test real world upgrades
<mvo> chroots (e.g. pbuilder login) or other tests are useful too
<mvo> we plan to have a auto-upgrade-tester package for karmic that can be used to test system upgrades of any given input packages, lets see how this goes :)
<mvo> I guess the summary is: the best way for us (as a distro) to ensure clean upgrades is lots of testing (on a wide range of setups)
<mvo> for the maintainer: write good, clean, small maintainer scripts :)
<ia> mvo: ok, thanks :-)
<mvo> (for the specific python problem we plan to change the way the python packages are done to invlove a little bit less magic :)
<mvo> for karmic
<neurobuntu> mvo thanks this has been really helpful
<mvo> thanks for comming and listening!
<mvo> and asking good questions of course :)
<mvo> ia: the auto-upgrade-tester is a project that can perform a full upgrade in a virtual environment
<mvo> it can use chroot, kvm and ec2 (the later is still a bit experimental)
<mvo> kvm is really the most useful one
<mvo> you give it a base image that can be any kvm image (e..g build via ubuntu-vm-builder) and then it will perform a release upgrade from the installed version of ubuntu to the next using update-manager in a non-interactive session
<mvo> that takes ~1h on my realatively slow system
<mvo> after that I can see if the given image upgrades cleanly or if there are issues
<mvo> its very useful as a QA tool
<mvo> its currently only available via bzr, but we want to package it
<mvo> so that everyone can test and play with it
<mvo> the base-image is not touched, so when a failure happen a fix can be tested as well with it
<mvo> e.g. when python-foo does not upgrade cleanly (but only in a complex dist-upgrade), a fix can be uploaded to a test PPA and the upgrade can be pointed to that PPA to test if the fix is really good
<mvo> does that answer the question? or should I expand on a particular are more?
<mvo> area
<ia> mvo: yep, thanks for answer :-)
<mvo> :)
<mvo> if there are no further question I say thanks for comming and have a good day
<Rail> mvo: thank you
<Rail> and others for questions
<Rail>  /close
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-06-05
<WastePo1ato> Hi.
<bodhizazen> we shall be compiling today :)
<bodhizazen> so let's review how to connect to the shared ssh session shall we ?
<bodhizazen> http://paste.ubuntu.com/188659/
<bodhizazen> can people try to connect and let me know if there are problems ?
<bodhizazen> please note: the server has changed
<bodhizazen> it is ssh.bodhizazen.net
<bodhizazen> wb swoody
<swoody> ty bodhizazen :)
<swoody> logging a lot, trying to get FreeBSD to boot :(
<bodhizazen> FreeBSD, now that's hard core, lol
<swoody> haha
<bodhizazen> 5 minute warning :)
<bodhizazen> not many on the ssh session , LOL
<bodhizazen> http://paste.ubuntu.com/188659/
 * jgoguen is there \o/
<bodhizazen> >:)
<bodhizazen> anyone needing assistance connecting ?
<bodhizazen> are we ready to start then ?
<TuxPurple> yes :)
<jgoguen> yup
<bodhizazen> This session is in follow up to the last when we discussed installing packages
<bodhizazen> I will review installing from source today with a few tips
<bodhizazen> First, advantages / disadvantages of installing from source ?
<bodhizazen> advantage - newer package possibly with bug fixes
<bodhizazen> disadvantage - you will need to install dependencies manually
<bodhizazen> you will have to update manually
<bodhizazen> and you may break things, lol
<jimi_hendrix> bodhizazen, thats always amusing though :)
<bodhizazen> Let's start with a review of the most basic package installation
<bodhizazen> you need to install a few tools
<bodhizazen> apt-get install build-essential
<bodhizazen> ;)
<bodhizazen> then to install a package it is simple
<bodhizazen> download the source code
<bodhizazen> extract the archive
<bodhizazen> cd into archive
<bodhizazen> ./configure
<bodhizazen> make
<bodhizazen> make install
<bodhizazen> sudo make install , sorry
<bodhizazen> now lets go through that in some more detail
<bodhizazen> 1. download the source code
<bodhizazen> lets look at dillo
<bodhizazen> http://www.dillo.org/
<Kasm279> so i heard the class is on compiling drivers today?
<bodhizazen> yep
<bodhizazen> from the home page, go to dl page
<bodhizazen> http://www.dillo.org/download.html
<bodhizazen> ALWAYS LOOK ON THE PROJECT HOME PAGE FOR INFORMATIO
<bodhizazen> including bugs, fixes, and dependencies
<jimi_hendrix> bodhizazen, you may want to check the README too...
<bodhizazen> we are not there yet jimi_hendrix , patience
<bodhizazen> wget http://www.dillo.org/download/dillo-0.8.5.tar.bz2
<jimi_hendrix> yes master
<Kasm279> so, watsup right now?
<bodhizazen> now most source code is actually c
<bodhizazen> and needs to be compiled
<bodhizazen> some applications are python or distributed as binaries
<Kasm279> what about shell scripts?
<bodhizazen> some is like nvidia, sorry excuses for linux programming run as an install script :)
<bodhizazen> vmare is that way too
<bodhizazen> back to dillo
<bodhizazen> Kasm279: the install scripts are the same, you still need to install teh dependencies
<Kasm279> k
<bodhizazen> unpack the archive, usually a tar.gz , sometimes a zip or other archive
<bodhizazen> tar -xzvf dillo*
<bodhizazen> this will make a dillo-0.8.5 driectory
<bodhizazen> I personally keep these archives in ~/src
<bodhizazen> mkdir -p ~src/dillo
<bodhizazen> mv dillo-0.8.5 ~/src/dillo
<bodhizazen> now lets look at the archive
<bodhizazen> cd ~/src/dillo/dillo-0.8.5
<bodhizazen> Now you may keep your archive anywhere, just so long as you cd into it :)
<Kasm279> im wondering, what is dillo?
<bodhizazen> in the archive there is almost always a README
<bodhizazen> read the README now :)
<bodhizazen> Kasm279: http://www.dillo.org/
<bodhizazen> just an example
<bodhizazen> The most common reason installation fails is what ?
<bodhizazen> anyone want to guess at that ?
<bodhizazen> failure to install the dependencies !!!!!!
<bodhizazen> you will get part way through the compile and it will fail with a cryptic message, this is almost always a problem with dependencies
<bodhizazen> dependenceies come in 2 flavors
<bodhizazen> -dev and lib
<bodhizazen> c uses headers
<bodhizazen> the headers are not in the ubuntu package
<bodhizazen> they are in the 8-dev
<bodhizazen> so while your application may list foo as a dependency
<bodhizazen> you can not simple
<bodhizazen> apt-get install foo
<bodhizazen> you almost always need
<bodhizazen> apt-get install foo-dev
<bodhizazen> sometimes foo is provided as a shard library
<bodhizazen> ie libfoo
<bodhizazen> in which case
<bodhizazen> apt-get install libfoo
<bodhizazen> when finding dependencies google is your friend
<bodhizazen> as is searching for packages
<bodhizazen> Want a trick ?
<bodhizazen> use apt-get
<bodhizazen> sudo apt-get build-dep bar
<bodhizazen> will download and install the dependencies for bar, including foo
<bodhizazen> >:)
<bodhizazen> OK, we are now done with dependencies
<bodhizazen> now let us compile and install
<bodhizazen> first configure
<bodhizazen> b4 you configure use
<bodhizazen> ./configure --help
<bodhizazen> this will list the options
<bodhizazen> you almost ALWAYS want one option
<bodhizazen> --prefix/usr/local
<bodhizazen> this installs teh application into /usr/local
<bodhizazen> so
<bodhizazen>  /usr/lcoal/bin
<bodhizazen> rather then /bin
<bodhizazen> this will significantly reduce breakage
<bodhizazen> if you do not use this , you will create conflicts with apt-get
<bodhizazen> or apt-get will over write libs etc
<bodhizazen> or you will break apt-get (dpkg)
<bodhizazen> so
<bodhizazen> ./configure --prefix=/usr/local --with-option2 --enable-foo
<bodhizazen> next make
<bodhizazen> make
<bodhizazen> that will compile the app
<bodhizazen> then
<bodhizazen> sudo make install
<bodhizazen> to remove
<bodhizazen> sudo make uninstall
<bodhizazen> if you are luck
<bodhizazen> otherwise
<bodhizazen> locate bar
<bodhizazen> and rm -rf all instances of bar . lol
<bodhizazen> to run app
<bodhizazen>  /usr/local/bar
<bodhizazen> You can use apt-get to build from source
<bodhizazen> enable the deb-src repo
<bodhizazen> then
<bodhizazen> apt-get source foo
<bodhizazen> then
<bodhizazen> sudo apt-get install dpkg-dev fakeroot
<bodhizazen> cd foo-0.1.0
<bodhizazen> dpkg-dev fakeroot
<bodhizazen> dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -b
<bodhizazen> want to see some examples ?
<bodhizazen> I have a shared session and we can compile a simple application
<bodhizazen> everyone on the ssh session ?
<bodhizazen> anyone need help ?
<bodhizazen> OK, to make things faster I already downloaded the porgram hello
<bodhizazen> you can see the tar ball in ~/src/hello
<bodhizazen> lets extract
<bodhizazen> now we have hello-2.4
<bodhizazen> so ..
<bodhizazen> it says to see INSTALL for directions
<bodhizazen> lets do it :)
<bodhizazen> it is checking for dependencies and system configuration
<bodhizazen> now it is ready
<bodhizazen> it is making (compiling)
<bodhizazen> done
<bodhizazen> now insatall
<bodhizazen> shall we test it ?
<bodhizazen> OOPS
<bodhizazen> do not forget to use sudo, lol
<bodhizazen> and you can see it works :)
<bodhizazen> now lets remove it
<bodhizazen> now it is gone
<bodhizazen> lets compile from the ubuntu repos :)
<bodhizazen> The application in the repos is called hello-debhelper
<bodhizazen> apt-get source has retrieved the package
<bodhizazen> no dependencies ....
<bodhizazen> building with dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -b
<bodhizazen> fakeroot means we can build without being root
<bodhizazen> now it builds a .deb in one directory higher
<bodhizazen> see it ?
<bodhizazen> hello-debhelper_2.2-3_amd64.deb
<bodhizazen> now lets install
<bodhizazen> sudo dpkg -i hello-debhelper_2.2-3_amd64.deb
<bodhizazen> and run ...
<bodhizazen> see how dpkg put it in /usr/bin ?
<bodhizazen> this is why we used --prefix=/usr/local >:)
<bodhizazen> remove ?
<bodhizazen> all gone now :)
<bodhizazen> Where to do for additional information ?
<bodhizazen> http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/apt-howto/ch-sourcehandling.en.html
<bodhizazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
<bodhizazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete
<bodhizazen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto
<bodhizazen> Questions ?
<bodhizazen> Kasm279 you were asking about install scripts and what not ?
<bodhizazen> these are usually nvidia, ati, or vmware
<bodhizazen> the general process is the same
<bodhizazen> first install the dependencies
<bodhizazen> then download the install script
<bodhizazen> read the README
<bodhizazen> if there is one
<bodhizazen> ./install.sh --help
<bodhizazen> if there is any
<bodhizazen> then
<bodhizazen> chmod a+x ./install.sh
<bodhizazen> sudo ./install.sh
<bodhizazen> the install scripts will typically download and install the source code
<bodhizazen> nothing like compiling from source to silence a room, lol
<bodhizazen> questions ?
<bodhizazen> so now you are all experts on compiling from source then :)
<bodhizazen> want to see apparmor in action ?
<bodhizazen> BOO !!!
<mzz> no need to shout
<bodhizazen> OK, well I will hang for a few minutes then to see if there are any additional questions :)
<mzz> (also, can I scroll up a shared screen session the usual way or does that disrupt what others see?)
<bodhizazen> just checking mzz :)
<bodhizazen> yes mzz
<bodhizazen> you mau scroll at will
<mzz> drat, "copy: permission denied (guest)"
<bodhizazen> LOL
 * mzz must be doing it wrong
<bodhizazen> do you want me to past bin something
<mzz> nah, don't bother
<bodhizazen> what client are you using ?
<jgoguen> mine's better: stuff: permission denied (user guest)
<mzz> oh, I use urxvt but I have its history disabled, because I normally use screen's (urxvt's doesn't really work if you're in a split screen session)
<bodhizazen> dam security
<bodhizazen> post a command here and I will run it
<bodhizazen> this session is logged
<bodhizazen> and if you wish I can pastebin output
<bodhizazen> w/ pastebin everyone can see
<mzz> nah, it's ok, I'll just read the actual documentation later
<bodhizazen> mzz: well, this is what I am here for now, demo and questions
<bodhizazen> so we have 10 min, ask away
<mzz> compiling stuff is easy, I'm only paying attention to the packaging-related bits
<bodhizazen> Ah
<bodhizazen> packaging for ubuntu is a bit more comples
<bodhizazen> the MOTU are giving session on packaging
<bodhizazen> we are building a moodle session to teach such things
<mzz> since nobody is saying much I'll share a slightly fakeroot-related story: be careful what you name the package you created here, because if a package with that name already exists you'll replace it
<mzz> I accidentally created a package called "udev" at one point, and almost didn't realise what I had just done before rebooting, which would have been bad.
<bodhizazen> LOL
<bodhizazen> I was asking the same question - how to name a package
<bodhizazen> https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA
<bodhizazen> specifically : https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA#Versioning
<bodhizazen> Any requests for future sessions ?
<bodhizazen> anyone want to tell us what I broke ?
<mzz> well, gnu hello had better be a well-behaved package with a working "make uninstall", but that may not always be the case
<bodhizazen> mzz: I can show yo uapparmor if you want
<bodhizazen> yes, you need to take great care in that
<bodhizazen> the good new is ...
<bodhizazen> usually you can manually remove stuff
<mzz> (I tend to install as "me" with --prefix pointing into my homedir to reduce the chance of catastrophic accidents)
<jgoguen> hehe
<bodhizazen> that works
<bodhizazen>  /usr/local is if you want to share
<mzz> that doesn't always works, but if it does you can easily get rid of the package
<bodhizazen> I always keep the source code to any installed package
<mzz> oh, that's another point: "make uninstall" needs a configured source tree to run from, so you have to keep that around or recreate it (rerunning configure with the same args)
<mzz> so be careful, use fakeroot or the like if at all possible
<mzz> try with /usr if you dare :)
<bodhizazen> naw, /usr is not so good
<bodhizazen> ~/bin
<mzz> I meant your rm -rf
<bodhizazen> add ~/bin and /usr/local/bin to $PATH
<bodhizazen> no, it will remove /usr
<mzz> oh, ok, don't do that then :)
<bodhizazen> it will also kill rm -rf /*
<bodhizazen> see ?
<mzz> err, no
<mzz> (the "*" is expanded by the shell, so if rm -rf /* is safe so is rm -rf /usr, right?)
<bodhizazen> well the only reason the system is still running is apparmor, lol
<bodhizazen> no
<bodhizazen> rm -rf /* will rmove everything by /
<bodhizazen> *but*
<bodhizazen> OK, thanks everyone
<bodhizazen> I think the next planned session is next week
<bodhizazen> topic ?
<bodhizazen> or shall I choose ?
<mzz> go for it
<bodhizazen> kthxbi
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-06-10
<dholbach> Packaging Training Session in 15m: Operation Cleansweep and the Patch Reviewers Team!
<dholbach> welcome everybody!
<dholbach> who do we have here of the training session?
<dholbach> come on, don't be shy :)
<dholbach> or is the channel +m'ed again?
<effie_jayx> me
<dholbach> ahhh, here we go :)
<SevenMachines_> i was on -chat
<effie_jayx> me
<dholbach> let's all chat in here - that's totally fine
<bobbo> o/
<dholbach> yeeehaw!
 * dholbach is EXCITED
<dholbach> alrightâ¦ I guess we'll have a few stragglers - we'll just ask them to check out the logs later on :)
<dholbach> bobbo and I are going to talk about Operation Cleansweep and the Patch Reviewers Team today
<dholbach> as you can see from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OperationCleansweep the goal of this initiative is to clear up the quite big backlog of bugs with patches
<dholbach> bobbo: at the moment, we have how many total?
<bobbo> We started with 2100
<bobbo> but we've hit about 1650 now :D
<dholbach> NICE
<dholbach> alright, the problem with a lot of these patches is that people didn't know about the "proper process to submit patches" or sometimes added patches we couldn't easily make a decision about
<dholbach> so the goal now is to triage those patches, see if they still work, then get them to the authors of the software and debian and get them included in Ubuntu that way
<dholbach> so everybody benefits
<dholbach> another problem we had was that Launchpad didn't offer something like "patch status"
<dholbach> so we always knew there's a huge number of patches, but we didn't know anything about them, because we couldn't query launchpad easily
<dholbach> our goal for this cycle is, to check out ALL of them and make sure they get attention
<dholbach> we put quite a lot of effort into writing good documentation that explains how to do it and how to make all the decisions regarding patches and where they should go
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReviewersTeam/ReviewGuide is the page you should probably bookmark :-D
<dholbach> bobbo: care to take us through  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReviewersTeam/ReviewGuide#Workflow ?
<bobbo> sure :D
<dholbach> awesome
<bobbo> Basically, going through that process you first need to find an appropriate bug to look at
<bobbo> There's a few links in the wiki, but http://tinyurl.com/2u7kf3b is the bug list we've been working from mostly
<bobbo> all of those bugs have patches that need a bit of love
<bobbo> The first step in working with a patch is to make sure the bug is still valid
<bobbo> there's no point trying to patch a bug that doesn't exist anymore
<bobbo> if you can reproduce the bug properly, then you should head on to the next step, if not you can generally set the bug to Incomplete and ask other people to check if it's still an issue for them
<txwikinger> o/
<bobbo> txwikinger, question?
 * txwikinger jusst said hi
<bobbo> txwikinger, haha :D
<bobbo> once you have a bug you can reproduce, you now need to test the patch, by downloading the packages source code (apt-get source packagename), downloading the patch attached to the bug and attempting to apply it
<bobbo> if it fails to apply, you should add the 'patch-needswork' tag to the bug, and add a comment saying it failed to apply (adding some output from patch showing which patch hunk(s) failed is also a great idea)
<dholbach> we have some documentation on how to do that at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/HowToFix and I'll integrate that into the docs in a bit
<bobbo> if the patch applies fully, you'll next want to test that it actually fixes the bug (no point applying a patch if it doesn't actually fix anything)
<bobbo> you'll probably need to build the package (I'm sure there're docs on the Wiki somewhere to guide you with that, dholbach?)
<nigelbabu> we'll get docs on that stat, 24 hours perhaps.  there are docs, but not geared to reviewers
<dholbach> bobbo: yes, that's on HowToFix too
<dholbach> I'll make sure to update it after the session
<bobbo> once we write some docs and you know how to build packages, build it and go through the steps you went through initially to try to reproduce the bug
<dholbach> as bobbo said: if it doesn't work tag it as patch-needswork and it's off the list for now
<SevenMachines_> is it best/needed to be a member of the bug control team for this?
<dholbach> SevenMachines_: no, not at all
<dholbach> SevenMachines_: ubuntu-bugcontrol is only useful if you want to set the bug importance or mark it as won't fix
<dholbach> to tag the patch you can do it just like that
<bobbo> if the bug is still reproducible, hit up the bug with 'patch-needswork'
<bobbo> otherwise, you should send the bug upstream or to Debian, dholbach could you take us through sending a patch upstream?
<dholbach> sure
<dholbach> if you scroll down on the reviewers guide a bit, down to "Getting patches accepted", you'll find information on how to make a decision where to send the patch
<dholbach> in an ideal world, it'd work like this:
<dholbach>  - we get a patch in ubuntu
<dholbach>  - we send it to the software authors of that piece of software (upstream)
<dholbach>  - they like it
<dholbach>  - it gets integrated
<dholbach>  - the new release makes it into debian
<dholbach>  - then we get it
<dholbach> sometimes you'll find that it's a patch that has only to do with packaging
<dholbach> in that case and if the package is in debian too, you'd just send it to debian
<dholbach> if the package is just in ubuntu, we need to integrate it ourselves
<dholbach> the good thing about getting in touch with upstream and debian is that we get a few more sets of additional eyes to have a look at the patch
<dholbach> and make an informed decision
<dholbach> however
<dholbach> if it's really an important bug fix, like a crash or when data gets deleted
<dholbach> etc
<karyo> i'm sorry to interrupt but how do I "apply" a patch? does it need to be dealt with in a case by case basis?
<dholbach> we integrate it ourselves first
<dholbach> karyo: up until a few days ago it was a "case by case basis"
<dholbach> but luckily, we have the ultimate solution to things, which is
<dholbach> BOBBO
<bobbo> edit-patch?
<bobbo> amirite?
<dholbach> he extended "edit-patch" which is in ubuntu-dev-tools
<dholbach> so you'd just download the patch and the source package
<dholbach> then call    edit-patch <patch file>
<dholbach> and it'd get applied for you
<dholbach> then you can test-build the package
<dholbach> as bobbo, nigelbabu and I said: we'll work on getting the docs for that right ASAP
<karyo> in general, would you say applying patches would require packaging skills?
<karyo> or "just run edit-patch and your done"
<bobbo> (the only caveat there is that if the package doesn't have a patchsystem (dpatch/quilt/cdbs), edit-patch wont work)
<dholbach> bobbo: we can fix that too
<dholbach> bobbo: I'll add it to the TODO list
<karyo> do most packages have a patch system?
<dholbach> karyo: I'd say so
<dholbach> but we'll fix that
<bobbo> karyo, a lot do, yeah, but I'll patch edit-patch as soon as we're done here so it works for all packages
<dholbach> thanks a bunch already for all your questions and feedback - as you can see you sparked a lot of ideas :-D
<dholbach> ok, so let's say you forwarded the patches
<dholbach> you'd use patch-forwarded-upstream
<dholbach> and/or patch-forwarded-debian
<karyo> as tags?
<dholbach> If upstream requests patch rework, you'd add the patch-needswork tag
<dholbach> karyo: yes
<dholbach> if upstream rejects the patch, remove patch-forwarded-upstream tag, and add patch-rejected-upstream (or patch-rejected-debian) tag
<karyo> what if I cannot get an answer from upstream?
<dholbach> and if the patch is unnecessary or addresses something that does not need to be fixed, add tag patch-rejected, give reason in the comments, and if required close the bug to Won't Fix
<dholbach> karyo: that's indeed a problem - in that case we'd need to assess the patch and the bug and decide if we want to carry the difference ourselves
<dholbach> it always comes at a maintenance cost
<dholbach> (but maybe worthwhile)
<karyo> i'll ask you about a specific case about this later. please carry on
<dholbach> ok cool
<dholbach> as you can seeâ¦ the tags we use are really self-explaining
<dholbach> and apart from the technical details which might require some knowledge (which you can ask for in #ubuntu-reviews), the process itself is pretty straight-forward
<dholbach> if upstream accepts the patch, remove patch-forwarded-upstream tag, and add patch-accepted-upstream (or patch-accepted-debian) tag. Indicate the VCS revision and/or expected upstream/debian version/revision that will include the bugfix
<dholbach> the only thing left (apart from a juicy example or two) is: how do I get it into Ubuntu if it's urgent enough?
<dholbach> there's the sponsors team - they will take patches from people who can't upload themselves yet, where all the patch assessment has happened already
<dholbach> you'll just attach an updated patch (if necessary), add a changelog entry (if you can) and subscribe ubuntu-sponsors
<dholbach> do you have any more questions up until now?
<dholbach> bobbo has picked a few nice and juicy examples
<dholbach> let's first go through one that was already done
<dholbach> and then do a live example
<bundo> hayanbom,  Hi !
<hayanbom> bundo, hi
<effie_jayx> @dholbach there are a few bugs with patches with very specific hardware. what can one do to help get those sorted if one does not have the needed hardware
<bobbo> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libpcap/+bug/523349
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 523349 in libpcap (Debian) (and 1 other project) "Bad /sys path to text-based usbmon (affects: 2) (dups: 1) (heat: 42)" [Unknown,Fix released]
<dholbach> effie_jayx: good question - I'd probably ask in #ubuntu-devel for help with that
<karyo> reproducing the patch would be very difficult too
<bobbo> This is a bug which had a patch which has gone through the patch-review process
<bobbo> Brian Murray confirmed the bug and it was then sent up to Debian  (unfortunately whoever did that forgot to add patch-forwarded-debian tag)
<bobbo> it was taken and applied in the Debian package, and was tagged 'patch-accepted-debian'
<bobbo> and now we are waiting for the patch to trickle down and hit the Ubuntu archives
<bundo> oh karyo good English conversation ^^..
<dholbach> also
<dholbach> we have it tagged now, so we practically have another "todo list" now
<dholbach> we can regularly have a look at the patch-accepted-* bugs and make sure we integrate them one way or another
<dholbach> (there's instructions on the review guide for that as well)
<karyo> isn't it automatic?
<dholbach> karyo: it depends
<dholbach> karyo: only if we're in the beginning in the release cycle and the package in ubuntu was not modified, we'll get it automatically
<dholbach> karyo: in the other cases we'll have to do this semi-manually
<dholbach> like: if we're very close to release and it's a HUGE CHANGE, we probably choose to fix it in the next release instead
<dholbach> even if it fixes a bug
<dholbach> so it can get more testing, etc.
<dholbach> bobbo: please go on - just wanted to quickly interrupt :-)
<bobbo> dholbach, awesome :D
<karyo> Oh, I thought it only involved work in our part. Not decisions. bobbo go on please
<bobbo> okay https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/empathy/+bug/544242 is another quick example of a patch going through the process
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 544242 in empathy (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "[PATCH] Empathy should allow users to toggle auto-away mode on/off (affects: 1) (heat: 45)" [Wishlist,Fix committed]
<bobbo> this time a bug was created with a patch attached
<bobbo> it was reviewed by Omer Akram who sent it upstream
<bobbo> nigelbabu, saw this and marked it -frowarded-upstream
<karyo> isn't this a feature rather than a but fix?
<bobbo> There was some discussion about the patch upstream with people debating the correct way to implement it before the patch was accepted and tagged patch-accepted-upstream
<bobbo> karyo, the process can work for both features and fixeds
<bobbo> karyo, in the case of feature requests it's especially important that we talk to the upstream about it and forward patches up to the original authors
<dholbach> karyo: it's probably one of those examples for "late in the release, maybe we shouldn't include it right away, even if it has upstream approval"
<dholbach> yep
<bobbo> dholbach, do you want to take us through a "live" untouched example from the queue?
<dholbach> let me check the list
<karyo> I understand. btw am I interrupting too much?
<dholbach> let me check the list
<dholbach> karyo: not at all
<dholbach> karyo: it's way more fun if this is a conversation
<bobbo> karyo, the more questions you ask, the more we understand where we need to improve our documentation and processes
<karyo> that's nice 'cause questions I've plenty
<dholbach> karyo: do you have any more questions right now?
<dholbach> ok let's see if  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/onboard/+bug/526791  makes any sense for us to work on
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 526791 in onboard (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "onboard crashed with SIGSEGV in XkbGetNames() (affects: 19) (dups: 4) (heat: 123)" [Medium,Fix committed]
<dholbach> if you have a look at the last comment
<dholbach> you see that marmuta said "I've pushed a workaround to onboard and virtkey trunks"
<dholbach> that means that the patches were already pushed upstream
<dholbach> so it's easy, I'd just add patch-accepted-upstream and it'd be off our list
<dholbach> nigelbabu, bobbo: do I remove the 'patch' tag? O:-)
<bobbo> dholbach, yes :)
<nigelbabu> dholbach: yes
<dholbach> oh, it doesn't even have it
<karyo> I don't have to reproduce and confirm that the patch is working?
<dholbach> alright, another one off the list
<nigelbabu> it doesn't have it, because its an older patch that's part of clean sweep
<dholbach> karyo: if upstream is totally happy with it, that's good enough for us, of course, if you want you can still test it
<dholbach> nigelbabu: gotcha
<bobbo> once you start going through the list, you'll find a lot of the bugs can be easily taken off our list as they've already been forwarded or accepted in Upstreams or Debian
<bobbo> the majority of bugs I've touched, I haven't had to apply the patch and test it as someone has done that already and sent it to Debian, the bug just hasn't been tagged yet
<karyo> so all I have to do is find out if upstream/debian is happy with the patch?
<dholbach> karyo: if it wasn't tested first, you'd need to test it though
<SevenMachines> is there a cutoff for these patches, ie, do we still try and fix the warty release :)
<karyo> how do I know if it was tested?
<dholbach> karyo: if it already was forwarded or even accepted, that's easy
<dholbach> karyo: in the other cases you'd want to test
<karyo> @sevenmachines I believe warthy is no longer supported
<dholbach> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openttd/+bug/503725 is another one of those
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 503725 in openttd (Ubuntu) "CVE-2009-4007 (DoS of OpenTTD < 0.7.5) (affects: 2) (heat: 252)" [Low,Confirmed]
<bobbo> SevenMachines, often if there's a bug from a long time ago, the patch will have already been applied somewhere, you just have to use your google-fu to check
<dholbach> it's about a security issue, directly in the initial comment it says
<dholbach> There are two ways to fix this:
<dholbach> - update to 0.7.5 (or higher)
<dholbach> - apply the patch of 0.6.2-1+lenny1 (from Debian)
<SevenMachines> scroogle-fu!
<dholbach> so it's been accepted both in upstream and in debian
<dholbach> I'll add patch-accepted-debian and patch-accepted-upstream
<dholbach> as you can see: a lot of our work is to put those patches into buckets
<dholbach> and make it clear what happened to the patches up until now
<karyo> is update to 0.7.5 an option?
<dholbach> so that further action can be taken easily
<dholbach> karyo: sure
<karyo> isn't that changing packages?
<dholbach> if you have a look at http://packages.debian.org/search?searchon=sourcenames&keywords=openttd
<bobbo> SevenMachines, normally if it's been languishing in LP for a long time, it's either not suitable to be applied or there's some other reason. In most cases of really old patches, I've looked around a bit, found the source code has evolved so much that the patch wont even apply any more and just slapped with with a 'patch-rejected' and explained why
<dholbach> you can see that it's already in Debian
<bundo> hayanbom,  Your happy?
<dholbach> another interesting example is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/file-roller/+bug/354136
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 354136 in file-roller (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "unintuitive back and forward (heat: 11)" [Low,Triaged]
<dholbach> as you can see the bug was forward to upstream already
<dholbach> click on the "gnome-bugs #578837" link
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 578837 in blueprint "Proposing a blueprint for a sprint cannot be undone (dup-of: 198982)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/578837
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 198982 in blueprint "Can't un-propose a blueprint for a meeting (affects: 1) (dups: 1) (heat: 12)" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/198982
<dholbach> if you compare the two suggested patches, you'll see they're identical
<dholbach> http://bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=132594
<dholbach> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/24728371/file-roller-2.24.1_history-fix2.diff
<dholbach> the patch didn't get a review upstream though yet
<dholbach> so we'd just add a patch-forwarded-upstream
<dholbach> alrightâ¦ let's close the session at this point and move over to #ubuntu-reviews where we can further discuss patches, bugs and the process involved
<dholbach> thanks a lot everybody
<bobbo> thanks guys :D
<dholbach> thanks bobbo for being a great host
<dholbach> I'll make sure we get the logs up later on for others who are interested
<karyo> thx
<SevenMachines> thanks everyone
<dholbach> I'll update statistics here: http://daniel.holba.ch/review/report
<dholbach> (every week, so we know how we're doing compared to last week)
<SevenMachines> sort of related, is there a developer week soon? or did i imagine it
<dholbach> SevenMachines: a couple of weeks left still :)
<karyo> what do I do when I cannot get an answer from upstream?
<dholbach> karyo: I'd try to ask again, on the bug, maybe on their mailing list too
<dholbach> karyo: and if it's not possible at all to get a reply, decide if we're willing to carry the load of taking the patch ourselves
<SevenMachines> joining ubuntu-reviews crashes my xchat :)
<karyo> so then it's : try hard to talk to upstream, and then try talking to the relevant ubuntu team. right?
<dholbach> karyo: ubuntu-sponsors
<dholbach> and the relevant team
<dholbach> be it desktop, server or kubuntu or wherever else :)
 * dholbach heads out of here - see you in #ubuntu-reviews
<karyo> okay. I think I had enough for the day. It's bedtime here. good bye
<dholbach> karyo: sleep tight! :)
 * karyo heads out ZZZ
<dholbach> it was great to have you around
<SevenMachines> bye all
<MTecknology> dholbach: I missed it, didn't i?
<nigelbabu> MTecknology: yes you did
<dholbach> MTecknology: yep, I'll put up logs in a bit
<MTecknology> dholbach: gosh darned you people that don't all use my timezone :P - I'm just waking up
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-06-12
<chris411> this working?
<chris411> can someoen help with a login loop proplem?
<chris411> mm me thinks everyone is off?
<chris411> Hi is anyone here apart from me?
<zkriesse> Hello chris411
<zkriesse> chris411: Need something my friend?
<chris411> Hi - am i in the right place to get some help on using Xchat software so I can get some help?
<zkriesse> Actually join the #ubuntu-beginners channel
<chris411> with a login "loop" problem
<zkriesse> And I will help you there
<chris411> on 10.04
<chris411> um ok i'll try
<chris411> exit?
<jfauxy> I'm here
<jfauxy> Does anybody know why I should get Ubuntu?  I already have linux mint.
<sirmacik> hey class (:
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-06-13
<jgonza9600> How do I create users in commandline?
<mnemon> useradd
<mnemon> useradd --help
<mnemon> or man useradd will show you the syntax
<jgonza9600> how do I exit the man?
<mnemon> :q
<jgonza9600> lovely
<mnemon> or q
<mnemon> :)
<jgonza9600> quit
<jgonza9600> q
<jgonza9600> exit
<jgonza9600> disconnect
<jgonza9600> ?
<mnemon> if you want to close irc /quit or /exit will propably work :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-06-06
<jono> hmmm
<jono> testing Lernid
<jono> such as http://www.ubuntu.com
<jono> such as http://www.ubuntu.com/cloud
<jono> http://www.jonobacon.org/
<jono> :-)
<jono> Lernid testing session kicks off soon
<jono> alright, folks, who here is using Lernid?
<jono> answer in the chatroom
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Lernid Testing Session - Instructors: jono, jsjgruber - Slides: http://is.gd/K3FTRx
<ClassBot> Slides for Lernid Testing Session: http://people.ubuntu.com/~nhandler/slides/openweeklucid/UbuntuTranslations.pdf
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/06/06/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jono> want to take it from here jsjgruber ?
<jsjgruber> Hello everyone.
<jono> I see the slide is loaded
<jono> just going to test changing slides
<jono> let us know if you see the slide change
<jono> [SLIDE 2]
<jono> [SLIDE 3]
<jono> [SLIDE 4]
<jono> can I ask a quick question - when I originally wrote Lernid, it would automatically change the tabs to the slide view if you were looking at another tab when a slide change or wb page was shown
<jono> I think it should work that way, otherwise people might miss the slides or pages
<jono> thoughts?
<jsjgruber> I never noticed it work that way. I'll write it down.
<jono> jsjgruber: yeah, someone wrote a patch to not switch slides, and I think a lot of people never see the slides display because they don't notice the tab go bold
<jono> going to test looking at a website such as http://www.ubuntu.com
<jono> works here
<jono> [SLIDE 5]
<jono> lets look at http://planet.ubuntu.com
<ClassBot> jonobacon asked: is this a question?
<jsjgruber> links should be underlined in blue and should be clickable
<ClassBot> Darthpbal asked: question here
<jono> jsjgruber want to discuss anything?
<jsjgruber> I can probably run through a few of the things that changed
<jono> sounds great!
<jsjgruber> The first on my list was to look to make sure that nicks were both upper and lower case, does everyone see that for ClassBot?
<jsjgruber> Another item is to use the Help->About box to check the version, it should be 0.8.1
<jsjgruber> Is anyone running with a non-English locale? There are two translation mergers in the release, plus a change to some of the code related to gettext. This is an area I have particular trouble with. Since It appeared to me that Afrikans was a completely new set of translations I've been trying to test by starting lernid from the command line with:
<jsjgruber> LANGUAGE=af lernid
<jsjgruber> Is there anyone who wants to test but is running lucid?
<nhandler> jsjgruber: Wouldn't the daily PPA work for that?
<jsjgruber> nhandler, yes, I think there may be one in there
<jsjgruber> When I tried to expand the Lernid window and then would quit, I expected it to start the next time with the expanded window. That wasn't working reliably and depended upon how Lernid was closed. Could you expand the window, give yourself more space for the top panel, and then pick a way to close? (By that I mean by menu item or clicking in the close box).
<jsjgruber> Next restart Lernid, the screen should return to the same size as you had no matter how you quit from it. When you start it you might just see a slide loading progress message (authored by others) on the status bar at the very bottom left, and you should see a "Slides have been downloaded". There are other status messages that come up down there, too.
<jsjgruber> switching web page to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom   does that come up again for folks? Someone had a problem with https:// addresses
<jsjgruber> Does the screensize look right when you restart lernid after changing the screen size?
<jsjgruber> There was also a minor logic error in a program parameter. Could you start
<jsjgruber> lernid with both:
<jsjgruber> lernid --classroom ubuntu-classroom
<jsjgruber> and
<jsjgruber> lernid --classroom \#ubuntu-classroom
<jsjgruber> These should both work.
<jsjgruber> If you have trouble, be user to bring lernid back the default way so you can continue along with us
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jsjgruber> For the second case be sure to include the backslash so the shell doesn't mess you up
<jsjgruber> Now for a couple of web page loads that gave lernid trouble:
<jsjgruber> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lernid
<jsjgruber> That one didn't crash lernid, but gave a traceback, and a scary message about lernid crashing on beta natty.
<jsjgruber> Let's test flash in the web browser:
<jsjgruber> http://youtube.com
<jsjgruber> Please pick a video you like and try to play it. The quality, sync, etc. depends on the quality of the clip, but it shouldn't freeze Lernid.
<jsjgruber> Any problems with Lernid while or shortly after starting the clip?
<jsjgruber> I'll let anyone who wants try you tube first, and then I'll bring back 'let me google that for you'
<jsjgruber> How are people doing? please respond in the chatroom.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jsjgruber> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=lernid
<jsjgruber> For this you should automatically go to google without a traceback message
<jsjgruber> From others there are some translations of "Users #" above the chatroom window. German has it, for example, but not Afrikans.
<jsjgruber> LANGUAGE=de lernid
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-06-07
<jsjgruber> The config file has been moved from Jono's web site to ubuntu-owl.org/lernid/ubuntu.lernid . I think these are the same right now, so there should be nothing to look at right now.
<jsjgruber> Does anyone have anything they see that's odd or they want to ask about?
<jsjgruber> That's about it. The other thing I'll mention is that after we have Lernid sound and stable I'd like to draw others to the project. There have been a number of people drawn to the project who have asked to join, and some who have proposed merges. A couple of merges did take place, but I'd like to welcome both experienced hands (Lernid is written in Python) and newcomers to help out with advancing Lernid. If you have any ideas, or ca
<jsjgruber> n help your self or help draw people please drop me an e-mail. My address is on the Lernid description page at http://launchpad.net/lernid
<jsjgruber> Thanks for following along and for helping me test Lernid.
<jsjgruber> Anything else Nathan or Jono?
<nhandler> Nope, I'm good
<nhandler> Thanks a lot for all of your work on lernid jsjgruber
<jsjgruber> My pleasure.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/06/06/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<crazedpsyc> jsjgruber: Could you (or somebody) set the useragent to 'Lernid/0.8.x' instead of Safari?
<jsjgruber> crazedpsyc,  I could look into it if you wouldn't mind filing a bug report so I won't forget
<crazedpsyc> jsjgruber: Sure, i'll do that in a minute :)
<jsjgruber> crazedpsyc, thank you very much, and thanks for helping us test.
<crazedpsyc> glad I could help :)
<jsjgruber> http://www.ubuntu.com is a test url
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-06-09
<gemunu_> Please
<gemunu_> Hi all.Im doing my first php project using Eclipse IDE .Can anyone tel me what is JDBC
<zee> quit
<jono> burnout session in just under 30mins!
<jono> :-)
<jono> 15mins until the burnout session - be sure to have Lernid installed - http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/06/05/new-lernid-release-please-test/
<pleia2> classbot will paste the URL of the slides at the beginning of the session and in the topic for folks who are just using regular IRC
<wangerin> test
<jono> hi everyone!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Burnout: Detecting it, avoiding it, preventing it - Jono Bacon - Instructors: jono - Slides: http://is.gd/sD9xlm
<ClassBot> Slides for Burnout: Detecting it, avoiding it, preventing it - Jono Bacon: http://www.jonobacon.org/files/jonobacon-burnouttalk.pdf
<jono> hi everyone and welcome to my session on burnout!
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/06/09/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jono> thanks to you all for joining me today to learn about what burnout is, how we can detect when it is happening, and importantly, how we can avoid it
<jono> in this session I am going to run through a series of slides - you should Lernid for this session and you can see the slides
<jono> please be sure to click the Session tab to see the slides
<jono> you can also get the slides at http://www.jonobacon.org/files/jonobacon-burnouttalk.pdf
<jono> also, as you can see from the slides and the older Ubuntu logo, this slide deck is a little old, but the information is still very much valid - I think many of you will find this a really insightful session into your own risks of burnout
<jono> :-)
<jono> I am going to deliver the presentation, and then we will have a Q+A at the end of the session
<jono> but...before I go on, remember, I am not a doctor - I am sharing some personal experience and some information I learned, but you should always seek a doctor for medical advice...I am the last person you should listen to for medical consultation
<jono> so, without further ado...let's roll!
<jono> so, click the Session tab in Lernid, and let's go
<jono> [SLIDE 2]
<jono> so, let's look at an example of burnout
<jono> me.
<jono> I burned out once, and it sucked - it affected my professional life, my personal life, and my health
<jono> I had been at Canonical for just over a year, and I just didn't feel myself
<jono> I felt demotivated with work, unhappy in my relationship, but had no idea what to do to bring me the satisfaction I used to enjoy in my work and private life
<jono> things felt quite empty
<jono> I started snapping at people, getting behind on work, and bringing stress home - in a nutshell, things sucked
<jono> really sucked
<jono> having no knowledge of burnout and what it was, I was wandering around in the dark of my own psyche, and fortunately I figured it out
<jono> some years later, while writing The Art of Community, I wanted to pass on some advice to help people not get into the same situation, and this is when I found an article
<jono> [SLIDE 3]
<jono> it was in the magazine MIND by Scientific American, and the article focused explicitly on the topic of burnout
<jono> it talked about the same symptoms I had - the stress, the lack of motivation, the effect on my home life - it really resonated with me
<jono> but then it painted the picture in a *really* interesting way
<jono> [SLIDE 4]
<jono> it talked about something called the 'burnout cycle'
<jono> this cycle was a set of 12 stages that outlined the different elements of burnout
<jono> each stage outlined the common symptoms and issues that happen as burnout progressively gets worse
<jono> this is an important point - burnout often does get worse if you don't treat it - it doesn't always just go away, as such, knowing the stages help you to identify the problems and treat them
<jono> while each stage progressively gets worse and worse, not everyone suffers from each stage - sometimes you may skip a stage
<jono> fortunately I got over my burnout
<jono> and now I understand why
<jono> which is my inspiration for this session
<jono> to help others not suffer the same issues
<jono> today I am going to run through these different stages
<jono> as I run through these stages, take a good, honest, hard look at yourself and see which stages apply to you - this could provide some insight into if you feel you are burning out
<jono> this is an important point
<jono> open up GEdit and note down which stages apply to you
<jono> feel free to share them in the chat channel
<jono> part of dealing with burnout is finding others to help you through it, including fellow sufferers
<jono> let's start with stage #1
<jono> [SLIDE 5]
<jono> typically the first stage is a feeling of needing to demonstrate your value - maybe you don't feel other people see the good work you do
<jono> at this point you may work a little more to show you are putting the hours in, or try and make certain people aware of some of the things you do to show your value
<jono> at this stage insecurity is beginning to set in and you feel this urge to prove yourself
<jono> [SLIDE 6]
<jono> at stage #2 you start working longer and harder
<jono> you are putting more and more hours in and starting feel increasingly tired
<jono> you feel you need to prove your value as a hard worker, but you also feel like other people are not seeing the fullest extent of your work
<jono> you still feel insecure in whether people know your full value...and whether you actually bring anything
<jono> you also start finding it increasingly difficult to switch off - thoughts of your work keep springing into your head when in bed, in the shower, with loved ones etc
<jono> you find yourself constantly checking your email, maybe sneaking off to check it when with friends or family
<jono> [SLIDE 7]
<jono> on to #3
<jono> with all this extra work and longer hours, you start depriving yourself of important needs
<jono> you sleep less, you start drinking a lot more coffee or inducing more caffeine
<jono> you probably start eating crap and other unhealthy food
<jono> while you can sustain a lack of sleep and bad nutrition for a while, you start feeling the effects of it - you feel stodgy and tired, and you start looking more to caffeine and other means to keep going
<jono> with all this work you are also spending less time with your friends and family, but you play it off as "being really busy right now", and they generally go along with it
<jono> [SLIDE 8]
<jono> at #4 you start getting jittery and antsy
<jono> your insecurities about what you are doing are worse than ever, and you start feeling paranoid that other people maybe don't have your best interests at heart
<jono> with this insecurity and paranoia you feel threatened by some people...maybe your boss, your colleagues...
<jono> in your own mind you know something is up...you feel shitty and stressed...but you dismiss at other things that are causing it - people...the company...they are the fault
<jono> [SLIDE 9]
<jono> we then get to #5
<jono> this is when other people start getting worried about you
<jono> your values start become to be skewed - it is easy to dismiss other non-work related elements in your life as "distraction from work", and you de-prioritize them
<jono> you see your friends and family far less than you used to, and even when you do you just want to get back to work and not be with them - this adds to the frustration, the last thing you need is someone's birthday or baby shower with all this going on in your life
<jono> you start viewing other things in your life as irrelevant - video games, movies, music...they all seem like things that you can't "justify the time for"
<jono> work becomes your only focus...you start stressing about if you were to lose your job, how would you pay your mortgage?
<jono> you are filled with stress about work, and the lack of friends and family time starts adding to the stress - people complain that they never see you, and your partner is getting frustrated with all of this
<jono> [SLIDE 10]
<jono> at stage #6 you really deny the issues that are happening to you - it is too painful to accept what is going on
<jono> you start losing your temper more and more with people, you become intolerant and frustrated with your colleagues and friends
<jono> you blame others for the problems that are going on - why don't people work as much as me? why don't these people get it? I haven't got time for all this nonsense!
<jono> you start complaining and blaming others for the amount of work you have to do - you have too many emails, too many meetings, too many things to do and not enough time
<jono> your lack of sleep and nutrition, and lack of stress-relieving time with friends, family and hobbies means the stress keeps mounting up
<jono> [SLIDE 11]
<jono> at stage #7 you are in a serious state of burnout
<jono> you start to withdraw from friends and family more, you find yourself feeling more and and more depressed, and we probably start seeing more tears from you
<jono> you feel this build-up of stress inside you and you feel you have to get rid of it - you feel constricted by it, but you don't know how to get rid of it
<jono> unfortunately, this is when people can look to unhealthy avenues to relieve this stress - you might start drinking more, and possibly using drugs to help you relax
<jono> [SLIDE 12]
<jono> at stage #8 friends and family start some really erratic behavior from you
<jono> you look tired, unhappy and disheveled
<jono> people around you start becoming quite concerned - some colleagues and friends may talk to you about it and express their concerns
<jono> at this point your manager may express concerns about productivity or even encourage your to take some time off
<jono> [SLIDE 13]
<jono> at stage #9 you feel completely worthless and feel like you bring little if any value
<jono> you have a real lack of confidence and are filled with insecurity, and start believing that nothing can solve the problems you have
<jono> life starts to feel mechanical and like a series of steps - you don't care about your work anymore, you get little pleasure from it
<jono> at this stage you are feeling really depressed and like few options exist to relieve the depression
<jono> [SLIDE 14]
<jono> at stage #10 you feel lonely and empty - your friends and family see you less due to your erratic behavior
<jono> you start indulging more and more in drink and drugs, and possibly in illicit activity such as escorts to relieve the tension
<jono> your sleep is heavily disruptive, you are eating like crap, and likely overeating to help provide some comfort - as such, you may be putting more and more weight on, which adds to your issues of self-confidence
<jono> [SLIDE 15]
<jono> at this point you are suffering from serious depression
<jono> you feel lost and unsure how to get back on track
<jono> you are tired, feel beaten down, and feel like you threw away so many good things in your life
<jono> the future feels pretty bleak - you don't see much of a way out of your current situation
<jono> in a nutshell: life is crap right now
<jono> [SLIDE 16]
<jono> the final stage is the worst
<jono> collapse
<jono> this is often when people consider drastic solutions such as suicide
<jono> you are on the verge of serious mental and physical exhaustion and problems
<jono> so...that summarizes the different stages
<jono> pretty depressing stuff as you get further down the line
<jono> and it provides some insight of how much worse burnout can get as it progresses
<jono> so, lets talk about solution
<jono> s
<jono> so, lets talk about solutions
<jono> there is a simple solution to much of this
<jono> [SLIDE 17]
<jono> we are a *community*
<jono> part of what we should do is make an awesome Ubuntu, but we need to look after each other too
<jono> now you can see the stages of burnout, we should look for these stages in others too
<jono> in many cases those who suffer burnout will not know that it is affecting them
<jono> it is important for us to be able to see it in our friends and help them see it too
<jono> so something you can *all* do is to help look out for these risks of burnout
<jono> keep an eye for the symptoms in others and if you see something, having a private chat with them and sharing your feedback is a good thing to do
<jono> a kind voice sharing some concerned words in a gentle way can often encourage people to tend to the issue when it is in the earlier stages
<jono> if someone in our community is frustrated, shouting at people, and being erratic...remember, it might be burnout
<jono> [SLIDE 18]
<jono> so lets look at some guidance for different types of folks
<jono> if you are a manager or leader:
<jono> always provide support for your team
<jono> a great manager (a) helps people be successful and (b) helps them be happy and comfortable in their work
<jono> many managers focus on (a) and rarely look at (b)
<jono> if a member of the team is burning out, be there for them as a friend as well as a manager
<jono> help them to restructure their objectives
<jono> and give them plenty of moral support
<jono> I have seen this many times in my role as Ubuntu Community Manager - some folks just hanker after a pat on the back
<jono> this validation can mean huge amounts for different people
<jono> we all need validation
<jono> I wrote a blog entry up about this at http://www.jonobacon.org/2009/07/30/on-validation/
<jono> if you work in a team, such  as an Ubuntu community team, always be there to help your teammates deal with burnout
<jono> also be there to help grow a team spirit - remember a lot of the earlier issues with burnout is people feeling insecure about their work
<jono> help your teammates to feel like valued contributors and provide lots of validation
<jono> if you are experiencing burnout yourself:
<jono> always talk to your manager first
<jono> share your concerns and feelings, reach out to him/her to help you solve them
<jono> when you know you are burning out, enforce stricter work hours - don
<jono> don
<jono> argh
<jono> don't get sucked into the "working longer" issue
<jono> also take regular breaks and be sure to chill out away from work - on you games console, with friends/family, wherever
<jono> [SLIDE 19]
<jono> and that, my friends, wraps up the presentation
<jono> we have 15mins for Q+A
<jono> in Lernid, press the QUESTION button and ask questions
<jono> oh, before I go on
<jono> I have always been a firm believer that how you percieve problems and challenges can shape your success in life
<jono> I wrote this up recently at http://www.jonobacon.org/2011/05/28/problems-open-doors-to-solutions/ - be sure to check it out
<ClassBot> agoole asked: how do you deal with burnouts when your workplace is also your home ?
<jono> agoole, I work from home too
<jono> the risk of home-working is never stopping working
<jono> I think it is really important that you separate out your work area - have a place where you work, and at the end of the day close it up and go back the following morning
<jono> also be sure not to skip lunch and breaks
<jono> lots of people do that (I did) and it screws them up
<jono> I find a great solution is to have lunch and watch YouTube videos or TV when you eat
<jono> it just helps you unwind a little
<ClassBot> Almeneses asked: Â¿What if I'm a student? Â¿who to talk to?
<jono> Almeneses, talk to your friends and also your teacher - teachers are often great at helping with these kinds of burnout issues
<ClassBot> juank_prada41 asked: Thanks for this session Jono, I just have a question. What if burnout happens to your partner? what can you do about it?
<jono> thanks juank_prada41!
<jono> I have seen this with my wife before - first be a reassuring and friendly voice
<jono> be there to know you are a team
<jono> when my wife has a bit of burnout I reassure her that I am here for her and say we are "Team Bacon" and that we will solve it together
<jono> reassurance but also helping your partner to understand the issues and bring clarity to them is important
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jono> it is also important that you don't lecture your partner and get on your high-horse, that can cause defensiveness - just be patient and be a listener with a focus on solutions
<ClassBot> hannes57 asked: What can i do, to be more confident in making decisions? The hole time everything is working fine. but everytime i have to decide something, i won't be really sure doing the right thing.
<jono> hannes57, decision-making is something that we learn as we get older - a lot of the work in decision-making is having your own confidence that you can make a decision
<jono> a lot of decision makers feel insecure about screwing things up or not having the authority to make the decision
<jono> build your self confidence first, and reassure yourself that you are the right person to make the decision
<jono> you should read Making Things Happen - it is a great book on this kind of topic
<jono> alright, we are out of questions!
<ClassBot> iheartubuntu52 asked: Jono - How can one get all the things done, yet remain cool, calm, collected and not get burned out?
<jono> iheartubuntu52, developing your own workflow is something that developers over the years - I recommend that you figure out who inspires you and learn from them
<jono> I learned everything I know about my current workflow from other people
<jono> and trial and error in seeing how it works
<jono> you should also strive to develop a sensor in your brain for when you feel stressed
<jono> alright, I think we are done
<jono> thanks for the questions, folks!
<jono> and thanks for joining me today!
<jono> remember, "I got your back" -  let's be there for each other!
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/06/09/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-06-10
<qwebirc24773> hello all
<Trond--> why didnt the class start?
<jcastro> 10 minutes until our session with Jamie Strandboge, Ubuntu Security Team Manager
<jcastro> (and also the 4th member of Rush)
<jdstrand> \o/
 * jdstrand plays opening riff to Freewill
<jcastro> Alright
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Q and A with Jamie Strandboge the Ubuntu Security Team Manager - Instructors: jdstrand
<jcastro> let's get started, we'll give people a few minutes to catch up
<jcastro> in the meantime I'll let you know how this session will work
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/06/10/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<jcastro> Welcome to our Weekly Q+A with Ubuntu Managers
<jcastro> You should be idling in #ubuntu-classroom-chat as well
<jcastro> from there you will ask your questions
<jcastro> you need to make sure that you preface it with QUESTION: so the bot can pick it up
<jcastro> so for example
<jcastro> "How do I turn on my computer?"
<jcastro> won't get picked up
<jcastro> you need to do:
<jcastro> "QUESTION: How do I turn on my computer?"
<jcastro> now with that being said, for these sessions we'd like the questions to remain ontopic
<jcastro> since Jamie is part of the security team try to keep your questions related to that.
<jcastro> it's not that he doesn't want to help you, but for example he won't be the best person to know how Unity is designed or anything like that
<jcastro> ok, so, now that that's out of the way, jdstrand, why don't you start it off and introduce yourself!
<jdstrand> Hi! I am Jamie Strandboge, the manager of the Ubuntu Security team. I've been asked to be a part of this Q+A, and I'll do my best to answer your questions. A little background: I've been a part of the Ubuntu Security team for getting on 4 years, my team is great and I find working on security in Ubuntu very rewarding.
<jdstrand> (it's almost as if I had that ready)
<jdstrand> Let's get started!
<jdstrand> Since no one has asked a question yet, I might point out that a lot of information about the Ubuntu Security team can be found in the wiki at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam
<ClassBot> jstvincent asked: Does Ubuntu currently have encryption levels up to any FIPS standard?
<jdstrand> That is a good question. That is a pretty broad question. Ubuntu has software which is FIPS certified, such as nss, which is used by for example Firefox
<jdstrand> Firefox can be configured to meet FIPS-140
<jdstrand> most applications use openssl which iirc, had gone through FIPS some time ago, but they haven't renewed
<jdstrand> (though, that doesn't mean that it still doesn't meet the requirements)
<ClassBot> jstvincent asked: In essence, could all the parts of Ubuntu (after total installation) be set for something like FIPS 140-2 for client security? As in ALL information is encrypted until login, and only unencrypted as needed.
<jdstrand> I am going to have to err on the side of caution here and say 'no'. There is a lot of software in Ubuntu, even in the default installation, and I don't think all of it could meet these requirements at this time
<jdstrand> That said, Mozilla products use nss, and I know both Firefox and Thunderbird can be configured to require FIPS 140-2
<jdstrand> other sotware like evolution (which is in the default install), also uses nss, but does not have a method of restricting the encryption/hashing algorithms afaik
<jdstrand> of course, you can configure evolution to connect to pop3s, etc, but it doesn't expose the FIPS 140-2 functionality
<jdstrand> I think mozilla products (and possibly chromium-browser) are the exceptions
<jdstrand> the best course of action to achieve this would be to coordinate either via the blueprint process, or look at our https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Roadmap page, then add a list of software that could benefit from this, then work with upstreams to implement the functionality and we can pull it into Ubuntu
<ClassBot> Trond-- asked: Hi! I am new to Gnu/Linux and Ubuntu, but so far I like it. I changed because I got attacked a lot of times using Windows OS and this time XP. Torpig was the final drop so I wanted to change to something more secure. What are minimum safety requirements for using Ubuntu for a newbeginner like me?
<jdstrand> good question
<jdstrand> In the default installation, Ubuntu is quite secure. We have a now open ports policy as well as proactive security features in our kernel and toolchain
<jcastro> (He means "no open ports", not now) -ed.
<jdstrand> some important applications also are confined by AppArmor, so if a flaw is found in the software, an attacker is 'confined' in a sandbox that prevents reading, writing and executing files outside of the ones needed to run the application
<jdstrand> Ubuntu also provides security updates for 18 months for regular stable releases
<jdstrand> LTS releases have 3 years of security support on the desktop and 5 on the server
<jdstrand> the single most important thing you can do to stay safe is to stay up to date on your security updates
<jdstrand> our team and the community provide quite a few of them, but we prefer to release as soon as we can as opposed to providing service packs
<jdstrand> Ubuntu also has various security software available such as a firewall and virus scanning (though virus scanning is not nearly as much of a problem on Linux in general at this time)
<ClassBot> jstvincent asked: Does the vision of the Ubuntu Security Team see FIPS 140-2 as being a possibility in the future? Or perhaps a special distro with only core components of the OS so there is no question as to the defaults of those programs?
<jdstrand> I would love to see more FIPS 140-2 compliance. There are efforts in the open source world to standardize on nss instead of openssl
<jdstrand> This development is ongoing, and something the Ubuntu Security team is keeping an eye on, but it is far from complete
<ClassBot> OneArmedNoodler asked: I have a friend who is a teacher and she's trying to introduce Ubuntu and OSS in general to the classroom, but she's getting resistance from the district IT team. They claim OSS isn't secure and won't even listen to her. Any suggestions for convincing them otherwise?
<jdstrand> There is always resistance to change and when you are talking about computer security, the resistance provides the necessary pause before jumping to a new technology
<jdstrand> In other words, the feeling is understandable, and I think that the first step is recognizing their concerns
<jdstrand> Then try to get specific. Ubuntu is a very secure operating system by default. You can see some of our features in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/Features
<jdstrand> Linux in general, while not immune to virusus and malware, has some good defenses against them
<jdstrand> Ubuntu in particular has a lot of hardening features and proactive security that helps contain and minimize flaws in software, and we provide timely security updates
<jdstrand> As for open source software not being secure-- that is an old argument
<jdstrand> you could tout 'yes, but many eyes look at the code and therefore the bugs are found and fixed faster'
<jdstrand> while true, in my experience, that isn't the most effective argument
<jdstrand> a better argument is pointing the the flourishing open source software that is out there: Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice/LibreOffice, CUPS, webkit, chromium, etc, etc
<jdstrand> Apple develops webkit and CUPS which are both open source. Google develops Chrome and Android (based on open source). I'm not sure you could point to much bigger players in the industry :)
<ClassBot> Lost_Cause asked: Do you know anything about the vulnerabilities of pidgin and any possible ways of making it safe enough to use again?
<jdstrand> Looking at our CVE tracker, I see one open CVE, with a low priority against pidgin. If you are aware of other vulnerabilities, please file a bug in https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pidgin/+filebug, being sure to check the security box, or send an email to security@ubuntu.com. pidgin is supported by our team, and we are interested in fixing security issues in it
<ClassBot> Fungalcomb asked: I don't know how true this is, but I was always told that one of the main reasons linux was virus free was because not a lot of people use it. Now that there are more and more people using linux, especially ubuntu which is being marketed as an OS 'your mum could use', are viruses becoming more of a concern? Are there thoughts going in to packaging ubuntu with an anti-virus?
<jdstrand> That is a great question
<jdstrand> While it is true that Ubuntu (and Linux in general) have not been the target of malware writers, I believe we have to assume that it is going to be
<jdstrand> Our goal on the security team when we aren't providing reactive security updates is to develop/integrate proactive security features such that when taken as a whole, Ubuntu becomes a very inhospitable environment for malware
<jdstrand> We succeed in many ways, but there is more work to be done
<ClassBot> Lost_Cause asked: Does the the SELinux meta-package work across all ubuntu distros?  This might be a stretch but can it also work with debian seeing how ubuntu is based off of debian
<jdstrand> SElinux, the technology, should work fine in Ubuntu, however policy maintenance and development is community supported and not actively worked on by the Ubuntu Security team
<jdstrand> Ubuntu uses a different MAC system called AppArmor which is what I like to call "The MAC system for human beings"
<jdstrand> it is on by default in Ubuntu, and protecting several important applications
<jdstrand> I'd love to see more help with policy development, and it is a goal of our team to make that easier
<jdstrand> (this is being tracked in one of our blueprints this cycle)
<jdstrand> If you want to get invloved with SElinux or Apparmor (or any security stuff :) on Ubuntu, I suggest visiting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved and contacting us
<ClassBot> Omega asked: Why don't we enable encrypt the home folder by default?
<jdstrand> Great question
<jdstrand> I thinkit boils down to a few things
<jdstrand> 1. backups
<jdstrand> 2. disaster recovery
<jdstrand> 3. a couple of annoying bugs
<jdstrand> backing up your encyrpted home directory requires planning. Without proper planning, normal backup procedures might make the backups unusable
<jdstrand> in terms of disaster recovery-- the tools are different than what most people (and documentation) are used to
<jdstrand> the bugs are being worked on. But the bottom line is we provide it in the installer so that people can increase the security of their machine in the face of offline attacks. we make it opt in so they have to make a decision-- hopefully an educated one :)
<ClassBot> julie asked: Is there a reason why no firewall is configured by default on a fresh ubuntu install?
<jdstrand> Ubuntu ships with ufw by default since Ubuntu 8.04 LTS
<jdstrand> I hope to have network-manager integration with ufw in Oneiric
<jdstrand> whether or not to enable it by default is an active question
<jdstrand> on the one hand, there are no open ports in the default install, so there is nothing to firewall against
<jdstrand> on the other hand, it would be good to provide this extra level of protection
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jdstrand> in the past we did not enable it by default because ufw is not a GUI application, and it could cause confusion for users
<jdstrand> that should be changing in Oneiric, so we may revisit this next cycle
<ClassBot> Omega asked: Why don't we offer full disk encryption on the live CD?
<jdstrand> I think part of the answer is limitations in ubiquity (the graphical installer for Ubuntu), but the Foundations team could speak more to that
<jdstrand> Even if that could be adjusted, I am not sure it is a viable option on the livecd-- for similar reasons as for ecryptfs
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<jdstrand> Since people are clearly interested in disk encryption in this session, I might give my opinion on this: the most secure method is going to be using hard disk encryption with an ATA password and BIOS password. It prevents against many attacks and makes the installation, backups and maintenance so much easier
<jdstrand> newer disks have this built in. Of course, not everyone has access to them, so other options are available
<ClassBot> jstvincent asked: Do you know of any external hazards to an Intranet in a network that is connected to the internet? (is there any way someone could shut down or infiltrate the security on our Intranet from an outside source)
<jdstrand> sure, there are many attacks featuring nat traversal and the like
<jdstrand> and typical best practice is not to run internet facing servers on the same subnet as the rest of your lan (ie, use a DMZ)
<jdstrand> so your best defense here is network segmentation in your topology, VLANs as well as bastion firewalls, client firewalls and egress filtering on your router
<jdstrand> it is not an easy subject, and is highly site specific, but there is a lot of information out there on the topic
<jdstrand> one follow up to the full disk encryption on the live cd-- I want to make sure people know that full disk encryption via LUKS is available on the alternate CD
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/06/10/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<jdstrand> I think we are out of time, which works, cause we are out of questions :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<jdstrand> thanks to everyone for participating and following along! Be safe :)
<jdstrand> People interested in Ubuntu Security can visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved or ask question sin #ubuntu-security on Freenode
<jdstrand> Omega: a colleague of mine pointed me to: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-o-ubiquity-lvm-luks
<Omega> Thanks!
<Nabeel> QUESTION: When will the nvidia 96.x drivers will be available for natty
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-06-11
<carl_> hello
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-06-04
<NeVeR_> Anyone here from South Africa?
<NeVeR_> I scored level 5 on the Pre assesment thing.. what does that mean?
<Pendulum> NeVeR_: this isn't a support channel and I'm not sure what pre-assessment thing you're talking about. If you're looking for support, tryin #ubuntu . If you're looking for other Ubuntu folks in South Africa, try #ubuntu-za
<NeVeR_> coooooool thanks
<IdleOne> NeVeR_: what pre assessment thing exactly?
<Pendulum> IdleOne: google is suggesting maybe https://forms.canonical.com/assessment/ ?
<IdleOne> ah, yeah. thanks
<Pendulum> (I have to admit I didn't know that existed)
<IdleOne> I have seen it before in the past. I was thinking of taking the course and then applying for a support position at Canonical
<Pendulum> *nods*
<Pendulum> I'm taking the pre-assessment now just out of curiosity. See if I'm more technical than I thought ;-)
<IdleOne> I bet you will surprise yourself
<IdleOne> it is amazing how much you can pick up just by being on irc and occasionally reading
<Pendulum> I used to know more than I do now, but I still remember enough to make educated guesses
<Pendulum> plus I'm well aware I have imposter sydrome ;-)
<Pendulum> I see one problem with how they give results on that pre-assessment
<Pendulum> they give you your score and no information about what it means
<NeVeR_> Pendulum: that's what I meant... just says you are level 5, then says go to ... link, and the link doesn't exist :(
<NeVeR_> oh wells
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-06-05
<tk___> i want to disallow ubuntu for using my ati radeon card
<pungi-man> tk___, ask in #ubuntu
<Hi-IamAnIdiot> Heya
<Hi-IamAnIdiot> where is the timetable to be found ?
<Hi-IamAnIdiot> *school`s out for summer* ?
<pleia2> Hi-IamAnIdiot: the link is in the topic
<pleia2> http://is.gd/8rtIi
<Hi-IamAnIdiot> which one is it ?
<Hi-IamAnIdiot> thx anyway
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-06-09
<stlsaint> opps
<JoseeAntonioR> j #ubuntu-classroom-chat
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-06-10
<pungi_man> join my channel #easywithpb on freenode networks
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-06-03
<jotaxpe> hi
<AminosAmigos> !topic
<ubot2> Please read the channel topic whenever you enter, as it contains important information. To view it at any time after joining, simply type /topic
#ubuntu-classroom 2013-06-07
<fgfgfg> hi i need help with the software called UNETBOOTING
<fgfgfg> it dose not the the UBUNTU 13.04 on the list and the highest verision on the list is  	
<fgfgfg> UBUNTU 12.04  LIVE
<JoseeAntonioR> fgfgfg: if you need help, please join #ubuntu
<fgfgfg> why cant i get it in here sence im here now
<fgfgfg> WHAT THE DIFFERENCE
<fgfgfg> opp sorry for the caos
<fgfgfg> i can belive i hafy yo go somewhere eles to get help and you all use UBUNTU nad i cant get help in this room im in now
<fgfgfg> why may i ask
<JoseeAntonioR> have a nice day!
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-06-07
<MrDonut> ÐÐ´ÑÐ°Ð²ÑÑÐ²ÑÐ¹ÑÐµ!
<MrDonut> I need help!
