#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-14
<abelli> bona sera
<sivang> hi douglas 
<douglas> hi sivan :)
<douglas> hi all too :)
<sivang> hmmm, not much going on here this time of the day, is everybody sleeping/away?
<sivang> :)
<douglas> yep...
* enrico is preparing a major announcement in the list
<sivang> enrico: what about?
<enrico> I'll be a surprise
<enrico> But it's connected to the gift you had two days ago for replying to me in the list :)
<sivang> hehe, then I Know what it's about :)
<sivang> yay
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-15
<sivang> hi enrico !
<sivang> mornign, what's up?
<enrico> hi sivang !
<abelli> enrico: sivang : ciao belli di padella
<abelli> i need your help, could someone of you send me the link or better a copy directly, of burgundavia's baz how to-.
<abelli> ?
<enrico> uhm... I haven't read it yet: did he put it online?
<enrico> I knew he was working on it, but I didn't realised the results were available
<abelli> mmm... i thought that was a 2-days work.. mmm sorry
<sivang> never seen that howto yet
<abelli> Kinnison: sup yo?
<Kinnison> abelli: Hello to you too :-)
<abelli> Kinnison: how are you doing?
<Kinnison> Not bad thanks. Plane trip was a bit crap
<Kinnison> But I saw one of the most incredible sights nature can afford
<Kinnison> I saw an electrical storm from above it
<Kinnison> that was cool
<abelli> plane trip.. where did you go?
* Kinnison is in SA (Cape Town) for a meeting
<abelli> wow..
<abelli> Kinnison: ok have a good time
* Kinnison hopes he will; thanks
<abelli> the same holds for the others...
<abelli> ciao a tutti, im off, keep rockin'...
<abelli> ciao
<sivang> sm1028: simon, is everything ok, nick wise? ;-)
<sm1028> I'm ok, thx sivang :)
<sm1028> just tattooed a bug number on my forehead
<sm1028> it's #zwiki bug day, all welcome
<sivang> ah I didn't know that! nice :)
<_d4vid> hi all
<enrico> Committed the charmap section for the QuickGuide!
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-16
<abelli> bon jour
<sivang> abelli: bon journo
<abelli> buon giorno
<sivang> err, yes, I know italian like I know kernel hacking
<abelli> ehehe..
<Burgundavia_> hello all
<sivang> yo Burgundavia_ 
<sivang> 'ssuuup?
<sivang> been back from the cold? :)
<Burgundavia_> I still have no internet access at home
<Burgundavia_> I have just got back from 2 weeks on the road with work
<Burgundavia_> I have a question though. Why the heck did they change the menu from "System" to "Desktop"?
<sivang> hrm...long due discussion :)
<sivang> was about 2 weeks ago I think
<sivang> or a bit later
<Burgundavia_> is there a discussion somewhere I can butt in on?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-17
<douglas> night
<sivang> hey douglas 
<douglas> hi man !
<douglas> nice to see you !
<sivang> hornbeck: wow
<sivang> hornbeck: hello hello :)
<hornbeck> hey is the subversion server working for you?
<sivang> the one at the DC?
<hornbeck> mine
<hornbeck> nevermind it is ok
<sivang> ok, night
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-18
<enrico> hornbeck: hei!
<enrico> hornbeck: I'm about to read the mail: excited to see what happened
<enrico> W.E.
<enrico> M.I.G.R.A.T.E.D. ! ! !
<enrico> W00T
<enrico> W00T
<enrico> W00T!
* enrico celebrates
<hornbeck> glad it went ok
<enrico> yup!!
<sivang> enrico: do you remember how to make nice colorful tables in the wiki?
<enrico> sivang: I'd say just look at the source of ConferenceAgenda
<sivang> enrico: yes right I noticed that
<sivang> thanks anyway :)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-19
<Keito> Hello
<Keito> i want to install ubuntu 64bit
<Keito> however, i'm not sure how things'll work out with the apps
<Keito> are all the apps avialable for 32bit, also avialable for 64bit, or do I need to recompile?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-20
<Chazzle> hello?
<Chazzle> hope I am in the right place...
<Chazzle> I am looking for help with installation of Ubuntu...
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-13
<mhz> jsgotangco: sorry, i should ping you here :)
<jsgotangco> heh
<mhz> jsgotangco: if you had to write a how-to create docs for doc-team... what would you say the only basic tags are to learn?
* mhz knows his english is crappy these days
<jsgotangco> basic docbook tags?
<jsgotangco> well the styleguide is a good place to add those
<jsgotangco> and eventually the styleguide becomes a doc guide
<jsgotangco> me and jeff schering discussed about it before
<LaserJock> I use screen orderedlist application and filename a lot
<jsgotangco> orderedlist mostly
* robotgeek is copy pasting mostly
<mhz> hmmm
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, as long as its well formed and valid heh
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: yeah, i am still editing ubuntu desktop guide :)
* mhz was thinking a good idea would be to have short 3 or 5 pages doc where readers can easily start making docs using tags in a 'way' doc-team needs. This way, after only 3 or 5 pages he's ready to start in action and slowly add more tags/style based on deeper guides
<robotgeek> http://robotgeek.no-ip.info/KubuntuDesktopGuide/ is the cheap html preview
<mhz> example: the following is a basic doc (considering tags) template for you to follow
* mhz opening tab
<robotgeek> everyone should expect a bunch of patches tommorow :)
<jsgotangco> yeah that's no problem as long as *somone* replies that the patch has been applied
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: i just sent in a email to the list regarding a patch which bur[n] er sent, basically not to apply it 
<jsgotangco> i tried it failed
<robotgeek> hmm, that's weird, cause i was able to apply it with (patch -p0 < patchfile)
<jsgotangco> well i haven't committed anyway patch away :)
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: i think jjesse missed 2 patches 
<jsgotangco> where?
<jsgotangco> i'll patch it now
<robotgeek> in my tar.gz, i dunno if he had somethine else in mind
<jsgotangco> hmm i'll check again
<jsgotangco> what specific patches?
<robotgeek> new_menus.patch is what he missed
<robotgeek> global.ent.patch is a patch adding a link for kubuntu-support
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> ok i'll check on it now
<robotgeek> howdy Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi robotgeek
<LaserJock> hi Madpilot
<Madpilot> hi LaserJock
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek
<robotgeek> heh, long list of hey's and hi, always good
<Snake__> *yawns*
<jjesse> no yawning
<Snake__> jjesse: why not
<jjesse> cause it reminds me that i'm tired and should go to bed, instead of working on kubuntu stuff
<Snake__> jjesse: haha, what time is it there?
<Snake__> (wherever you are...)
<jjesse> almost 11pm, i'm in michigan united states, however it's been a long day, up at 6am
<Snake__> jjesse: meh come on, im ohio here, and im up at 5:30 am, you can make it :P
<jjesse> where bouts in ohio?
<jjesse> i'm in grand rapids Mi
<Snake__> Eastlake, up near cleveland
<jjesse> oh i've heard of it
<Snake__> Wow, im surprised :)
<Snake__> I didnt think its a famous as it seems to be
<Snake__> lol
<jjesse> my dad's family is from elyria
<Snake__> Ah, that place is nice
<jjesse> and i've been to cleveland several times
<jjesse> avon lake as well
<robotgeek> hey jsgotangco 
<robotgeek> damn i am tired, i meant "hi jjesse "
<Snake__> wb robotgeek 
<jjesse> hiya robotgeek
<robotgeek> jjesse: did you miss 2 patches? or not apply them for some reason?
<jjesse> hmm must have missed two.. i can take care of them in the monring
<robotgeek> jsgotangco is looking at them, so don't bother
<Snake__> jjesse: you must be busy, applying all this stuff between the 3 of you (I think theres only 3 right?)
<robotgeek> jjesse: i have been managing a mini svn here, 3 ppl working on the same chapter :)
<jjesse> that have svn access or just do kubuntu docs?
<jjesse> there are lots that have svn access, just some of us hang out more in the channel
<jsgotangco> well majority of those with svn access are not active anymore
<jsgotangco> but sometimes make a fix or two
<jjesse> jsgotangco: sorry bout not posting to the mailing list, sent a note on the channel instaed, was busy at work
<Snake__> Oh okay
<jsgotangco> jjesse, its ok :)
<jjesse> hmmm what other applications should i talk about in my chapter :(
<jsgotangco> is this for the official book?
<jjesse> yup
<bur[n] er> jjesse: what chapter?
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> do you work with a DE?
<jsgotangco> (developmental editor)
<jjesse> yeah i need to submit my first draft on friday morning
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> deja vu
<jjesse> i think Burgwork has his in already cause he got a head start :)
<jjesse> i'm late to the game
<jsgotangco> yeah DEs can be so demanding
<jsgotangco> when you start writing a book, you get a whole new perspective of how its being done
<jjesse> i know and i'm only writing a chapter 
<jsgotangco> lol
<robotgeek> so, are most of the docteam writers?
<jjesse> i'm not a writer by proffession robotgeek
<jsgotangco> same here
<jjesse> i just do it in my "spare" time
<robotgeek> hmm, okay. 
<jjesse> for a job i'm a windows network administrator
<jsgotangco> even spare time can be frustrating
<Snake__> jjesse: wwwinnddooowwwsss
<Snake__> MSCE will get no where near my name
<jsgotangco> sometimes your mind goes blank and can't write
<Snake__> MCSE* Whatever
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: happened to me when i was writing my thesis
<Kaiser_Away> MSCE
<Snake__> I thought so :)
<jsgotangco> Snake__, it's jjesse 's money maker at the moment so...
<jsgotangco> nothing wrong with it
<jjesse> microsoft certieifed systems engineer
<Snake__> Yea
<Snake__> MCSE Thats what I thought
<Kaiser_Away> jjesse: oh ok. i thought the middle 2 wre the other way around o_0
<jsgotangco> i used to admin a lot of win2k3 servers too
<jsgotangco> till i left that job
<jsgotangco> heh
<jjesse> win2k3 are a lot easier to admin then either an NT or 2000 box ever was
<jsgotangco> now i'm clueless on windows servers
<jsgotangco> yeah
* robotgeek was adminning debian server in his lab
<Kaiser_Away> minesweeper consultant/solitare expert ... and i still cant remember the letters :$
<jjesse> oh i run a debian server as well
* bur[n] er is a windows network admin for a job :)
<jsgotangco> NO UBUNTU?
<jjesse> beside my boxes nope
* Snake__ shakes his head MCP will not be related with my name
<Snake__> lol
* jsgotangco shows jjesse fancy kungfu moves
<robotgeek> hmm, it's a sparc
<bur[n] er> jjesse: exchange 11 sp1 is still as ugly as ever ;)
<jjesse> debian serve was running before kubuntu
<Snake__> I want to go for CCNA, and CCNP
<robotgeek> never change anything that works well :_)
<jjesse> bur[n] er: no doubt, i'm still a little upset that exchange 12 will be only 64 bit
<jjesse> ccna is tough, i missed it by one question last time i took it
<jjesse> Snake__: if you are looking for a cisco job get certified in telephony 
* robotgeek will probably take a Linux certification thingie soon
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jjesse> and if you are yung enough, skip the ccna ccnp and go right for the big dog
<Snake__> jjesse: I had a cisco rep say he would refer me, and probly get in into a school because he was impressed at my knowledge lol
<jsgotangco> telephony is the way to go
<Snake__> jjesse: only 16, is that young enough?
<Snake__> :)
<jjesse> it will take about 5 years to get the big dog, the CCIE, 100k/year pretty much guarenteed
<robotgeek> i don't know jack squat about cisco stuff
<jjesse> and the CCIE is the only cert that you don't have renew all the time
<jsgotangco> same here
* jsgotangco just slacks
<Snake__> jjesse: but wouldn't I need to go through the levels?
<Snake__> CCNA, CCNP, CCIE
<jjesse> not neccessary
<jjesse> i know someone that weent from no cert to ccie after 5 years of studying
<Snake__> hmmm
<Snake__> Ill have to look into that
<jjesse> but along the way you can almost ace the tests for the other certs
* bur[n] er works certificate-less
<Snake__> bur[n] er: your runnin 2k3 servers without certs?
<Snake__> ?
<jjesse> bur[n] er nod don't have to have a cert to get a job
<jsgotangco> im pretty much comfortable to where i am now
<jjesse> just have to be good
<Snake__> Certainly not for a big company...
<bur[n] er> Snake__: running, specing, purchasing, installing, yes :)
<Snake__> bur[n] er: did you have a friend that got you in??
* bur[n] er works for a consulting company to many businesses too big to manage IT, but too small to have a full time IT staff
<bur[n] er> Snake__: no, just started doing it ;)
<jsgotangco> jjesse, do you read sounder?
<Snake__> Weird... lol, around here they wouldn't even let me work on a machine at a mom and pop store despite me outsmarting them >10 times and fixing 3 of their machines w/o pay
<Snake__> lol
<jjesse> jsgotangco: nope should I ?
<bur[n] er> Snake__: it helps that I'm not a teenager ;)
<jsgotangco> jjesse, mark suggested a doc sprint in london late march
<jjesse> i'm already on like 5 different *ubuntu docs
<Snake__> bur[n] er: yea I guess so :P
<bur[n] er> people assume I have a masters or something... i never correct them ;)
<robotgeek> bur[n] er: heh
<jjesse> hmmm that would be nice, no money for travel though
<Snake__> bur[n] er: I'm not aroggant with it, but ill correct people if they cant fix something
<jsgotangco> jjesse, he's willing to pay though, but that's just his suggestion no concrete details yet
<jsgotangco> and it conflicts with our freeze
<jjesse> then i'll schedule my vacation :)
<jjesse> doh
<Snake__> Man im so sore...must do 19 more pushups!!
<jjesse> hmm for dapper we getting quickguide, about-kubuntu and releasenotes correct?
<bur[n] er> is anyone tackling xubuntu documentation at all?
<jjesse> cause releasenotes and about-kubuntu are up to date
<jsgotangco> robotgeek is tackling desktop guide but hmmm
<robotgeek> let me and so is Snake__ and bur[n] er 
* robotgeek is typoing badly today
<jjesse> i'll think riddell is packaging quickguide, should i have him package desktopguide instead?
<Snake__> anyone want to do then next 15 for me?
<Snake__> lol
<Snake__> bur[n] er: come here and do 15 more pushups for me...i cant go down again :(
<jsgotangco> nahh desktop guide isn't that hot yet
<jsgotangco> quickguide is still more appropriate for now
<jjesse> do you have quickguide current for dapper?
<jsgotangco> almost
<jsgotangco> ive edited the menu
<jsgotangco> but have to add updated shots
<jsgotangco> shouldnt be difficult for this weekend
<jjesse> i poked riddell to get the stylesheet applied to the quickguide
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jjesse> so it will look like release notes
<jsgotangco> yeah that would be better
<Snake__> DONE Ohhh thank god.
<jsgotangco> ive removed references saying its a draft doc
* Snake__ finally gets to sit :D
<jsgotangco> and update the menus
<jsgotangco> not that much changes just need to update the text too
<jsgotangco> and better screenshots
<jjesse> nice i think that once  i get the chapter done i'll be back to hacking away at docs, riddell wants me to get the adept guide done
<jjesse> and uploaded to kde docs
<jjesse> as adept is now included in sarge
<robotgeek> jjesse: heh, i'll be referencing it quite a bit
<jsgotangco> sarge?
<jsgotangco> really?
<jjesse> debian
<jjesse> that's what i heard
<jsgotangco> you sure its in sarge?
<jjesse> its upstream
<jjesse> hmmm do
<jjesse> doh, whats the testing one called
<jsgotangco> i would expect it to be in sid
<jjesse> got them confused
<jjesse> stupdi me
<robotgeek> etch?
<Snake__> robotgeek: did we just add games to the kubuntuguide?
* jjesse slaps head
<jsgotangco> sid
<jsgotangco> sid is your experimental
<bur[n] er> sid == unstable
<jsgotangco> yeah
<bur[n] er> experimental == experimental ;)
<robotgeek> Snake__: no, no one did. i tht you were taking it up
<bur[n] er> etch == testing and sarge == stable and woody == old ;)
<Snake__> robotgeek: I am, but I was looking for some refrences I can go off of
<jsgotangco> etch is supposed to come late this year but that's wishful thinking
<bur[n] er> Snake__: try the ubuntu guide ;)
<Snake__> bur[n] er: ah good it is here
<Snake__> THEY GOT FROZEN BUBBLE!!
<Snake__> YES!!
<Snake__> :)
<jjesse> the docs aren't even in dapper :(
* Snake__ is a happy camper
<jsgotangco> not yet
<jsgotangco> its ok
<jsgotangco> flight 4
<jsgotangco> :)
<jjesse> this week
<Snake__> robotgeek: i'm just going to take what the ubuntu guide has, and expand on it, that okay?
* jsgotangco goes to kitchen for some fruits
<Snake__> expand and customize to kubuntu
<jjesse> hmm how wierd is this, i'm running windows xp on my laptop, using vm player to run dapper which i'm current in and conntect via krdc to a windows 2000 professional box
<robotgeek> Snake__: sure
<jsgotangco> jjesse, evil
<Snake__> robotgeek: aight
<jjesse> mdke: can you change the link to quickguide on d.u.c it currenlty is looking for kquickguide-web instead of quickguide-web
* jsgotangco looks for his d.u.c. ssh account
<jjesse> hmm wait isn't that in svn ?
<jsgotangco> yeah changing now
<jjesse> jsgotangco: just change sidebar.inc.php, not on box w/ svn access
<robotgeek> how do we generate those nice preview pages, with status ? use the make file?
<jjesse> don't they get built automatically?
<jsgotangco> there's a cron job
<robotgeek> jjesse: i havent used the make file yet
<jjesse> the preview pages on d.u.c ?? or local preview pages?
<jsgotangco> d.u.c.
<Snake__> Hey I assume you guys know kate pretty well?
<Snake__> maybe?
<jjesse> robotgeek: which were you asking about?
<robotgeek> jjesse: i meant the ones locally
<robotgeek> /ubuntu-doc/kubuntu/Makefile?
<jsgotangco> jjesse, done
<Snake__> help please?
<jjesse> Snake__ what do you need help w/ in kate?
<Snake__> Is there a way to get 2 terminals in kate?
<jjesse> never tried
* jsgotangco doesn't use kate
<Snake__> :(
<Snake__> I would like to irssi from inside to save resources
<jsgotangco> jjesse, d.u.c. is pretty updated it already reflected my changes a few days ago
<jjesse> yeah i noticed that it keeps quite current, i point people there from #kubuntu all the time when they want to know what is in dapper
<jsgotangco> i should start deleting irrelevant entries
<jsgotangco> and images
<jsgotangco> heh let me lock down d.u.c. first its showing too much info
<Snake__> *sigh*
<robotgeek> Snake__: learn how to use screen, one terminal for everything :)
<Snake__> robotgeek: I know how to use screen...ah crap im so retarted
<Snake__> lol
<Snake__> I never think outside the box
<jsgotangco> i couldnt find my account
<jsgotangco> grr
* robotgeek screams "my patch my patch!"
<jsgotangco> mdke, when you come online can you send me the username/pass of the d.u.c. server you sent to me a while back i couldn't find the one that you send me in my email anymore if or if its already disabled, can you create a new acocunt for me i want to lockdown apache
<Snake__> robotgeek: ?
<jsgotangco> mdke, and some other mad server settings
<jsgotangco> mdke, sudo access as well
<jsgotangco> mdke, don't worry i won't rm -rf it :)
<Snake__> hmmmmm
<robotgeek> Snake__: i was hoping jsgotangco would commit the patch
* Snake__ wonder how he would quit screen now without exiting irssi
<Snake__> lol
<robotgeek> Snake__: did you not start irssi in the screen?
<jsgotangco> i haven't reviewed the patch
<jsgotangco> hold on
<Snake__> robotgeek: its in the screen, but I only have on screen, I need 2
* jsgotangco is currently at work but about to take his break
<Snake__> I can switch between 2 screens when I only have 1 open
<Snake__> cant**
<robotgeek> Snake__: then you don't know how to use screen :) <ctl + a> + c
<Snake__> robotgeek: I can use screen :( Exit konsole, when you irssi back up, screen -r :P
<jjesse> ok bed time
<Snake__> night jsgotangco 
<Snake__> ugh
<Snake__> jjesse: night
<robotgeek> Snake__: hmm, you can have 2 screens
<robotgeek> night jjesse , i think i'll join you as soon as i setup a few things
<Snake__> robotgeek: im lookin for a howto now :)
<jjesse> robotgeek: do you think my wife will be jealous?
<Snake__> jjesse: what, that your giving more time to ubuntu than her?
<robotgeek> jjesse: heh, i meant in the act, not in bed :)
<Snake__> lol
<Snake__> OH MY GOD I DIDNT CATCH THAT
<Snake__> ROFL!
<Snake__> woo crap I could use some sleep too
<bur[n] er> Snake__: you really can "man screen" and it'll tell ya
<Snake__> bur[n] er: i got it
<jsgotangco> screen is really useful
<jsgotangco> ctrl-a ?
<jsgotangco> heh
<robotgeek> i mapped to ctl + z
<jsgotangco> who says you cant multitask on console
<jsgotangco> heh
<Snake__> lol
<Snake__> how do i switch screens, is ctl a the only way?
<robotgeek> who needs a ide, lol
<bur[n] er> aww crap jj left
<robotgeek> Snake__: ctl + a, space, p n
<robotgeek> numbers all work :)
<bur[n] er> and a switches back adn forth
<Snake__> everytime I press ctrl a the screens cycle throught like their crazy....not really much of a chance to choose what screen i wanna go to
<bur[n] er> don't hold it ;)
<Snake__> bur[n] er: what do you mean
<robotgeek> Snake__: just do ctrl - a , then space
<bur[n] er>  Snake__: just play... nevermind ;)
<Snake__> WOW
<Snake__> thats amazing
<jsgotangco> heh
<bur[n] er> lol
<bur[n] er> what's not amazing is nautilus crashing on sftp:// connections to a freesshd windows host :\
<robotgeek> heh, bur[n] er use lftp :)
<bur[n] er> i want a drag/drop gui
<bur[n] er> and i just want to open remote files, edit them, save them, without copying it locally
<bur[n] er> konq works :)
<jsgotangco> scp?
<bur[n] er> sftp:// via konq
<bur[n] er> same idea
<bur[n] er> not sure why I use sftp instead of fish, i just do ;)
<jsgotangco> i work remotely most of the time then i scp a server from au to a server in LA
<jsgotangco> now *thats* intercontinental
<jsgotangco> jeeezz i just finished a half pound of grapes
<robotgeek> whoa...long time since i ate grapes
* jsgotangco is doing the vegan thing
<jsgotangco> well not too vegan
<jsgotangco> i still like my leather :)
<robotgeek> heh
<robotgeek> i am doing the non-vegan thing :)
<jsgotangco> i sure miss a big mac though sometimes
<robotgeek> i don't eat beef, only chicken :)
<jsgotangco> its that religion-based?
<robotgeek> it was
<robotgeek> not eating meat
<robotgeek> not eating beef is a matter of taste
<robotgeek> vegan for 22 years of my life
<jsgotangco> well i understand most indian cultures do that
<robotgeek> yup, pretty common
<mdke> jsgotangco, eh, lockdown apache?
<jsgotangco> ok lockdown isn't the correct term :)
<mdke> what do you want to do?
<jsgotangco> sex it up so it doesn't show that much info
<jsgotangco> you can do it if you want to
<mdke> i'm looking for your account
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> you don't have one, I'll make it
<mdke> what username?
<jsgotangco> jgotangco would do
* mdke can't be bothered reading the scrollback
<mdke> what did I miss?
<jsgotangco> what do you think of this distro srpint in london
<jsgotangco> that sabdfl thought of
<mdke> which one?
<jsgotangco> sounder
* mdke looks
<mdke> argh
<jsgotangco> its not in stone yet though, just a random thought from his brain
<mdke> ok, i don't understand a word of the first post
<mdke> reading marks' now
<mdke> nice thought, the problem is that very few of us can probably spare the time off
<mdke> and as you say, it is a bit late in the game
<mdke> geez, I miss a lot by not reading sounder
<mdke> ok i'm off to work
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<k31th> Morning 
<k31th> mdke is that any thing to do with mandrake ?
<rob> hmm.. what did I start on the list?
<jsgotangco> the website thread?
<rob> I mentioned the web site, then seveas went with it then there was like 20 emails
<jsgotangco> :)
<rob> hmm, 715 new emails
<rob> I haven't checked that on my main pc for two days :(
* robotgeek doesn't know which list it is, heh
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, sounder
<rob> the sprint sounds like a good idea, as long as people could get time off
<jsgotangco> sure
<jsgotangco> but its too soon
<rob> for dapper?
<jsgotangco> not to mention we're almost on freeze during that time
<rob> it should be sooner
<jsgotangco> heh
<rob> end of march would be freeze, thats still almost 2 months away
<jsgotangco> i dunno its too soon but if its to plan for dapper +1 that would be too early
<rob> to plan for dapper +1 yeah, it should happen just after dapper is released
<rob> but if the aim is to get the docs sorted for dapper itself, now would be good
<rob> still a little bit of time left, although I'm picturing a week long sprint
<jsgotangco> you interested?
<rob> yeah
<rob> if the group wants me, that is
<jsgotangco> well let's see how it unfolds
<rob> yeah, sounds good
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: docteam sprint?
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, mark suggested it out of nowhere in sounder
<rob> maybe one of us should forward the email to ubuntu-doc?
<Madpilot> I should probably sign up for sounder...
<jsgotangco> yeah sounder is good
<rob> yep
<jsgotangco> its supposed to be off topic but a lot of good ideas come out of it
<rob> its good because people can just throw ideas out there
* rob hates evolution
<Madpilot> subbed to sounder now
* robotgeek curses his shell
<mdke> bhuvan, pong
<bhuvan> mdke, looking for you to discuss about article2moin
<bhuvan> do we have any plan on this for dapper ?
<mdke> no, i don't think so
<mdke> moin hosts html quite nicely
<bhuvan> ok!
<mdke> so there is no real need to convert stuff to moin markup
<bhuvan> so, we will do docbook2html and host it in moin ?
<mdke> the html generation will happen the same way as it does now, and then yes, we'll host it in moin
<rob> hi mdke 
<mdke> hiya
<mdke> k31th, no
<mdke> they are my initials
<k31th> mdke: thats good newa
<k31th> news
<robotgeek> hey mdke k31th 
<mdke> hi
<manicka> evening all :)
<robotgeek> hey manicka 
<manicka> howdy
<mhz> kjcole: hey!
<mhz> kevin, could show me a nice url where I can see the cookbook, please? ;p
<jsgotangco> yeah i'd like to see it in its naked glory too
<jsgotangco> show us! show us!
<mhz> kjcole: give it to us, daddy boy!
<mhz> :D
<jsgotangco> you'll never escape this time!
<mhz> jsgotangco: 'you'.. as in kjcole? or 'you' as in mhz?
<jsgotangco> kjcole heh
<kjcole> Having trouble being in two places at once....
<mdke> bhuvan, btw did you post on the forums about serverguide feedback?
<bhuvan> mdke, no
<mdke> do you think it's a good idea?
<mdke> I can post here if you like, and get it stickied
<mdke> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=45
<bhuvan> i'm not a good follower of forums. if you think it would add value, please go ahead
<mdke> ok, but you have to subscribe :)
<mdke> that way you'll see the feedback and can implement some suggestions, if there are good ones
<bhuvan> sure i will
* mdke looks for the "post new thread" button
<mdke> bhuvan, done
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<bhuvan> i have registered myself to forums 
<mdke> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=127112
<mdke> cool
<jsgotangco> cool
<jsgotangco> mdke, how is it difficult to hack up our make script to accomodate 2 edubuntu docs?
<mdke> jsgotangco, is this to put them on the website?
<mdke> if so, easy
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> for previews/peer review, etc.
<mdke> if they were hosted in svn
<jsgotangco> yeah it is
<jsgotangco> i'm going to clean up the edubuntu folder and retain what's only needed
<mdke> okay good
<mdke> i'll do the makefile once you've done that
<jsgotangco> thanks =)
<Kagou> hi
<mdke> hello
<Kagou> i can't find who is working on each part of the documentation. An example : who's working on cups part of the server guide
<mdke> Kagou, we don't assign specific people to sections of documents
<mdke> any member can work on any document, and we normally have a contact for each document
<Kagou> okay mdke so if i have some suggestions on that part, i'll make a diff an post it on the mailing list ?!
<mdke> Kagou, absolutely, that would be great
<mdke> Kagou, you are familiar with the source code we use?
<Kagou> you mean docbook ?!
<mdke> yes
<Kagou> not so but that's not a BIG problem 
<mdke> cool
<mdke> if you prefer, you can send in suggestions and we can convert them to docbook
<mdke> don't diff the html version
<Kagou> suggestions in plain text ?!
<mdke> if you prefer that to docbook, sure
<Kagou> ok. thnx mdke. I'll have a look at the doc and try to do some suggestions. The only BIG problem is my english :p (i'm french)
<mdke> no problem at all
<mdke> your english is obviously fine, anyway there will be plenty of time for spellchecking and so on
<Kagou> ok
<Kagou> http://help.ubuntu.com/ seem's to be down
<mdke> damn
<jsgotangco> i didn't do anytihhng!
* mdke stares at jsgotangco fiercely
<mdke> :)
<Kagou> :D
<jjesse> what's wrong?
<mdke> our server is down
<jsgotangco> i just changed my password a few hours ago :P
<jjesse> doh that stinks
* mdke shrugs
<mdke> it will be a test of serverpronto's customer service
<mdke> I've heard it is rubbish
<mdke> btw jjesse we may have a problem with building the kubuntu desktop guide
<mdke> it occurred to me that the stupid kde tools don't support things like xincludes and probably not the olinkdb either
<mdke> the options are (a) use xsltproc for that guide, or (b) change the guide so it doesn't use that stuff
<jsgotangco> stupid kde tools?
* jsgotangco calls Riddell
<mdke> well, they don't
<mdke> we always knew that
<jsgotangco> seriously though
<jsgotangco> that is an issue
<mdke> yes it is
<mdke> not a new one either
<jjesse> to be honest i don't know how much help i will be in this discussion as i'm don't totally understand xincludes and other things like that yet
<jsgotangco> brb
<mdke> jdub, poke?
<Burgwork> somebody pinged me?
<Kinnison> well, about eight hours ago, jjesse mentioned you
<Kinnison> dunno if that counts as a pinging
<Burgwork> ah, ok
<Burgwork> how are you KingBahamut 
<Burgwork> Kinnison, 
* mdke peers at Burgwork 
* Kinnison is well, thanks
<Burgwork> mdke, hmm? got no internet at home, so not much Ubuntu work recently
<mdke> bummer
<Burgwork> going to be sorting that out today
<mdke> jdub, 2 things
<mdke> jdub, first I was wondering about the status of start.ubuntu.com
<mdke> if it's going to happen, I won't bother worrying about improving and translating the current browser homepage
<jdub> ok, will give you status this week
<mdke> second was, can you reply to my email about yelp customisations
<jdub> hrm, can you send it again?
<jdub> well, maybe i'm not the right person to talk to
<mdke> jdub, sure
<jdub> what was it about?
<mdke> you remember we discussing giving the css some ubuntu theming?
<jdub> yeah
<mdke> it was about whether those should be done for the human theme only, or more widely
<jdub> hrm, how do you mean?
<jdub> whether it should adapt to other theme colours, or...?
<mdke> yelp currently gets its colours from whichever theme the user is using
<mdke> it's not very aggressive about those, so we're just talking like text-highlighting and so on
<mdke> a possibility would be to start including more brownness generally in the yelp css
<mdke> the other possibility is to get yelp to be a bit more aggressive about using theme colours in things like links, headers etc
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> hrm
<mdke> jdub, anyhow, I've resent the mail
<jdub> so changing default.css wouldn't be problematic at all
<jdub> but there is that weird interaction with themed colour usage
<mdke> changing default.css has no effect afaik
<mdke> it's all in the xsl templates
<jdub> i *imagine* that gtkhtml would interpret the themed colours correctly
<jdub> hrm
<jdub> sec
<jdub> yeah, okay
<jdub> so look at yelp-common.xsl
<mdke> yes
<jdub> it does shit like this:
<jdub> { color: </xsl:text> <xsl:value-of select="$yelp.color.gray.fg"/><xsl:text>; }
<mdke> yes
<mdke> the alternatives are:
<jdub> so that's where we'd want to get all patchy wit' it
<mdke> { color: #nice-ubuntu-color }
<mdke> or
<mdke> { color: blah blah yelp.color.bg }
<jdub> or do more interesting colourisations with the theme colours...
<mdke> so that it uses the theme background or something
<jdub> let's call these option A and option B
<mdke> ok
<jdub> respectively ;)
<jdub> option B definitely has a big advantage when it comes to accessibility and so on
<jdub> and for those people who are brown-challenged
<mdke> nod
<mdke> also, we might be able to push something upstream, I think shaun hasn't given much love to the color scheme
<jdub> though unless we are very careful, the help viewer will break really badly with stupid themes
<mdke> yes, that might be why it is on the conservative side
<jdub> hmm
<jdub> i think i'd lean towards B
<mdke> that's what I figured
<jdub> bit toss in some transparent pngs of the ubuntu logo
<jdub> like the one from ubuntu-artwork's gdm theme
<jdub> s/bit/but/
<mdke> ooh interesting
<mdke> as a fixed background you mean?
<jdub> i mean, we can certainly tart up the html independently of getting the themed colours working better
<jdub> oh, no, i more meant as a header bar or something
<mdke> i don't know how to do that via pure css
<jdub> though you could have a fixed position bar at navigation bar at the top of the help browser
<jdub> nothing's stopping us from diddling with the html :)
<mdke> which html?
<jdub> but yeah, we could get a bunch of this done with css alone
<jdub> the html that the stylesheets spit out
<mdke> hmm
<jdub> it's not to hard to diddle with
<jdub> too
<mdke> yeah we might be able to knock something up
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i gtg home
<mdke> I'll play around, and mail you some more
<jdub> ok
<jdub> happy to help with things where i can
<mdke> thanks
<jdub> and i can point you to more useful people if required ;)
<mdke> ok, but you're a hard man to pin down
<jdub> i'll be a bit easier until the 14th
<jdub> when i'll be travelling again
<jdub> going to OSWC and FOSDEM
<mdke> ah ok
<mdke> i'm off then, thanks
<jdub> oh, well, your email covered most of that
<jdub> !
<mdke> jdub, ugh, using yelp.selected.bg is not really an option: the brown is not dark enough to work with text. Any idea if there are various shades of brown in the human theme?
<mdke> http://mdke.org/images/selected.bg.png
<LaserJock> mdke: I thought there was an Ubuntu palette somewhere on the artwork site
<mdke> LaserJock, problem is I'm trying to get the colors directly from the theme, rather than using fixed colors
<LaserJock> ah, I see. BTW, it is too light
<mdke> yes, quite
<mdke> aha
<mdke> found something
<mdke> http://mdke.org/images/selected.dark2.png
<mdke> that works rather well with various themes
<manicka> nice
<Burgwork> mdke, I like it
<mdke> actually I see no reason why yelp upstream wouldn't use it
<mdke> i'll get onto them
<LaserJock> mdke: much easier on the eyes ;-)
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-14
<mhz> jdub: pin
<mhz> +g
<jdub> pong
<jsgotangco> ta daaaa
<jsgotangco> jdub, ping?
<jdub> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> jdub, yo! how are free are you in august?
* jsgotangco looks at wiki
<jsgotangco> oh crap linuxworld
<jdub> jsgotangco: dunno if i'll go to that though, long time between it and oscon
<jdub> jsgotangco: what were you thinking?
<jsgotangco> we're doing an event over here in August, a community hackfest and RMS already confirmed
<jsgotangco> late august
<jsgotangco> was thinking of other people to invite and splurge
<jdub> RMS? sorry, i'm washing my hair that night. ;-)
<jsgotangco> stallman
<jdub> that was a joke. as in "stallman's coming? thanks but no thanks"
<jsgotangco> yeah
<mhz> lol
<jsgotangco> i knew you wouldn't heh just taking a chance
<jsgotangco> dunno why the local folk are fascinated by it
<jdub> ah well, one sniff and they'll get over it ;-)
<jdub> sounds cool
<jsgotangco> ok i'll just think of another event much cooler
<jsgotangco> heh
<jdub> no, no, dude, this sounds good
<jdub> what date?
<jsgotangco> we don't have a specific date yet but its in August this year and we already have a campus known for its high-end labs sponsoring the event
<jsgotangco> the nice thing is that this school runs its own hotel as well
<jsgotangco> just across the campus
<jdub> wow, handy ;)
<jsgotangco> *which is very nice*
<jsgotangco> http://www.dls-csb.edu.ph/
<jsgotangco> argghh flash
<jsgotangco> http://www.asiatravel.com/philippines/intercenter/index.html
<jsgotangco> i'll send you an email about it
<mhz> jsgotangco: I wanna see that!!
<mhz> it must be paradise for geeks
<mhz> you can play sports, use your box, see some girls, have some nice meetings, good internet..cool!
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> its a very expensive school though
<jsgotangco> but you get wifi all over the campus
<jsgotangco> and they got 2 labs of edubuntu
<jsgotangco> (not ltsp yet though)
* mhz loves the idea os something like that in Chile
<jsgotangco> mhz, do you live in the capital?
<mhz> well, if Tecnocimiento gets to do what we plan, then we'll start the ITLA (Institute of Free Technology for LatinAmerica) and will defintaly have those features
<mhz> but at not expensive costs
<mhz> jsgotangco: yup
<jsgotangco> wow cool
* jsgotangco would like to go to south america sometime
* mhz would happily have jsgotangco here
<mhz> as long as you dont get wasted as ollie :D
<jsgotangco> wine, women and waltz as they say 
<mhz> www!
<mhz> but you can get women with no wine
* mhz actually got this wife playing poker :D
<jsgotangco> huh? you won her in a bet?
<mhz> nope, man.. I let her win me :D
<mhz> oopsss! puaj!! she won me sounds lot better than 'win+me' :D
<mhz> jsgotangco: you need to come here and see how we treat women.. they are the bosses
<mhz> we're servants
<mhz> :D
<jjesse> evening :)
<mhz> hi
<jjesse> how are u?
<mhz> just very tired
<mhz> but I dont wanna go to bed because dapper devel status is in 3.5 hours
<jjesse> too bad for me the are always in the middle of my night
<mhz> always?
<jjesse> i think they all have been at 0800 UTC correct?
<mhz> hmmmm
<mhz> nope
<mhz> i dont think so, jjesse 
<mhz> but I have missed 99% of them :D
<mhz> so i am not good reference
<mdke> rob, so you're interested in getting back into some docs?
<mdke> good news
<rob> :)
<mdke> what were you thinking of working on?
<rob> I guess I'll get stuck into the desktop guide again
<rob> but I'm thinking I'll need my password reset as I *may* not still have my gpg keys
<rob> but hold out on that, I haven't tried to import them etc yet
<mdke> argh
<mdke> you might still have the svn password around somewhere I guess
* rob broke his ubuntu over the christmas break
<jsgotangco> bah
<mdke> rob, you can always send patches in the meantime, I'll apply em
<rob> yeah
<jsgotangco> can i send patches to you too? :)
* mdke slaps jsgotangco 
<rob> hmm I think I just rm -rf 'ed  my wifes email
<rob> oops :(
<Kamping_Kaiser> ouch :/
<rob> lucky its gmail
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> when was our last meeting?
<mdke> two weeks ago
<jsgotangco> what happened there?
<jsgotangco> that was probably 5am on my side
<mdke> dunno
<jsgotangco> oh you werent there
<jsgotangco> ?
<jsgotangco> no one attends meetings anyway when i arrange one :/
<mdke> i can't remember
* jsgotangco sigh
<mdke> the meeting agenda page should tell you
<jsgotangco> i only see 1 entry
<mdke> eh
<mdke> that's for the next meeting, you want the old meetings
* jsgotangco thinks quality of -doc meetings degraded lately
<mdke> we've had some good work though
<jsgotangco> currently no plans for improvement though
<mdke> well I certainly plan to try and improve the documents
<mdke> i think others do too
<jsgotangco> :/
* Kamping_Kaiser likes doing doco, just cant hand the complexity of doing svn+diffs+stuff
<jsgotangco> well the toolchain requires us so for now
<jsgotangco> or else we'll have pretty bad translation jobs
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, it's pretty easy, we can help
<mdke> svn diff > name.of.your.patch
<Kamping_Kaiser> does that diff everything in svn? or just the working dir?
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, whereever you type the command
<mdke> if you prefer you can do "svn diff filename.xml > name.of.patch
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. *goes to have a play*
<Kamping_Kaiser> thanks :)
<jsgotangco> im going to re-ogranize this project :/
<mdke> huh?
<mdke> we need people to write docs right now, not reorganise
<jsgotangco> no impact to current work, just some housekeeping :)
<jsgotangco> if its ok with you :/
<mdke> sure
<mdke> but if you want to write more, you can, that's all I'm saying
<jsgotangco> huh?
<jsgotangco> i've been updating my docs
<jsgotangco> !
<mdke> yeah, i know
<mdke> but you seem keen on doing more, so I was just encouraging you
<jsgotangco> i've been doing a lot of writing lately that's why
<Kamping_Kaiser> is the help written in docbook or xml proper? (i thought it was docbook, but this is an xml file)
<jsgotangco> its always in docbook
<mdke> docbook is a declaration of xml
<jsgotangco> (with the exception of some yelp templates i believe)
<Kamping_Kaiser> so it says "xml version 1.0", and Doctype is docbook - that means that docbook is what we are working with? sorry, i havent used xml before
<mdke> yes it is docbook xml
<mdke> but you don't need to worry about what it is :)
<jsgotangco> just think of it as descriptive markup
<jsgotangco> for books
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok :)... so follow how other people did it and it should be ok? then i asume run the validate.sh to check..
<jsgotangco> heh
<mdke> that's right
<jsgotangco> mdke, can you modify the preview script when you have time to reflect edubuntu?
<jsgotangco> to publish as html
<mdke> yes, which docs need doing?
<jsgotangco> About Edubuntu and Edubuntu Release Notes
<mdke> ok
<jsgotangco> thanks :)
<mhz_food> jsgotangco: in our LoCo team smurf's server, we have ~/mailaddrs
<jsgotangco> ?
<mhz_food> jsgotangco: i was told I can use that to provide email redirection @ubuntu-cl.org
<jsgotangco> i've heard
<jsgotangco> but we don't use smurf's server anymore
<jsgotangco> we share servers with the brazilian team on a dedicated server
<jsgotangco> i mean space
<jsgotangco> (we admin on our own now but the server is still sponsored)
<mdke> mhz_food, yes you can, just add them to that file
<mhz_food> mdke: hehehe, you always there!
<mhz_food> :D
<mdke> not always :)
<jsgotangco> we actually have so much space at the moment we can even run our own pop3/smtp
<mdke> what do you want to know mhz_food ?
<mhz_food> nice
<mhz_food> the syntax, only
<mdke> ok
<mdke> assuming you want mhz@ubuntu-cl.org
<mhz_food> for example
<mdke> do: "mhz:   your@email.address
<mhz_food> duh!!!
<mdke> without the ", sorry
<jsgotangco> that's only a text file?
<mdke> yes
<mhz_food> and the MTA's service will automatically refresh?
<mdke> mhz_food, that's right yes
<mdke> jsgotangco, do you know how to build a pdf? I've tried but failed to install apache fop properly
<jsgotangco> oh how neat
<mhz_food> gee! I thought the syntax was that simple but two guys told me "each MTA's manages differently"
<jsgotangco> mine doesn't run either
<mhz_food> Moin2PDF :D
<mdke> stupid apache fop
<mhz_food> I had to do it, sorry
* jsgotangco kicks mhz_food 
* mdke kicks harder
<mhz_food> lol
<mdke> this isn't moin!
<mhz_food> mdke: i know.. it's just that jsgotangco was here and I had to tease 
<mdke> your obsession with moin is unhealthy :)
<jsgotangco> apache fop is such a pain imo but jeffsch would disagree
<mhz_food> mdke: thx for the help with mailaddrs
<jsgotangco> speaking of PDF
<mdke> np
<mdke> jsgotangco, i'll mail jeffsch and ask him how to do it :)
<mhz_food> jsgotangco: just to show the good looking CSS.. http://212.21.77.50/coredump/RecentChanges
* mdke debates mhz_food's definition of "good looking"
<jsgotangco> mark johnson of debian wants to work on an xml->pdf toolchain for ubuntu
<jsgotangco> but he said its going to be java for sure
<jsgotangco> oh well
<mdke> jsgotangco, ok, sounds good
<mhz_food> mdke: oh yeas, you are right, very subjective issue
<jsgotangco> at least not apache fop
<mdke> i don't understand java at all
<jsgotangco> mhz_food, hmmm what i want to do sometime when i have time is to extend moin like what henrik has been doing
<mdke> i have like 5 different packages installed, and I have no idea what they do
<mdke> and nothing works
<mhz_food> jsgotangco: well, I have sent a 10 paragraph email to henrik yesterday so we can start working on it.. obviously it will take at least a day to respond to all my points :D
<mdke> what are you working on?
<mhz_food> mdke: you need xml 2 pdf ?
<mdke> yes
* mdke nudges mpt__ about AboutUbuntu
<jsgotangco> Interrogation?
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> wiki? noooooo
<jsgotangco> ok not a native speaker i can understand that
<jsgotangco> bad choice of words though
<mdke> jdub, i've done some basic changes to yelp and sent them to the upstream mailing list to try and get their opinion. have a look: http://mdke.org/images/yelp
<mdke> all I've changed is the colour of links and headers
<mdke> so far... :)
<jsgotangco> color changes depending on theme used?
<mdke> yes
<jsgotangco> cool we finally get a yelp hacker
<jsgotangco> :D
<jsgotangco> good night
<ompaul> Burgwork, u about?
<Burgwork> ompaul, sadly yes
<ompaul> ahh don't be like that :-)
<Burgwork> what can I do you for?
<ompaul> are you in a position to copy thes source of the  faq to something on the wiki so it keeps its formatting
<ompaul> give me the name and I'll give it an hour or so
<ompaul> I could then throw it back to you 
<Burgwork> the website faq?
<ompaul> aye, its not in wiki format
<ompaul> i.e. I can't edit it
<ompaul> its locked
<Burgwork> it is in moin format and I do have access to an editable copy, but I don't have the password yet
<ompaul> okay
<ompaul> want to shove it onto wiki where it could be addressed and then I'll say it you can rip it and we can kill that page
<Burgwork> let me contact hendrik
<ompaul> okay
<Kaiser_Sleeps> night all
<ompaul> ohh this evening I found the boot options so that is getting its own page in the next 3 mins :)
<ompaul> night Kaiser_Sleeps 
<Kaiser_Sleeps> night
* ompaul raises eyebrows at the disconnection
<Burgwork> ompaul, ping
<ompaul> pong
<Burgwork> ompaul, generally best to say "Burgwork pong" so that we get a hint
<Burgwork> ompaul, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/FAQ
<ompaul> thanks
<Burgwork> edit to your hearts content and then I will move it back
<ompaul> Burgwork, shall do what I can in the 3/4 of an hour
<Burgwork> ompaul, whenever
<ompaul> Burgwork,  okay, I will hand it back to you in 18 hours or less
<Burgwork> ompaul, just ping this nick when it is done
<Burgwork> remember that I am not at this computer on Sat and Sun (hopefully)
<ompaul> Burgwork, I am been taken away from here for the weekend (wifes idea) :-)
<Burgwork> lucky man
<ompaul> I concur 
<mdke> ompaul, since the website is in moin, you can get the source for any page by attaching "?action=raw" to the url
* mdke goes to bed
<Burgwork> mdke, yes, but he also needs a way to write back
<LaserJock> mdke: I didn't know that, cool tip
<mdke> Burgwork, oh, i understood he just wanted to copy the source
<Burgwork> mdke, he wants to edit it and push the edits back up. That is where I come in
<mdke> i see that now, having read the scrollback
<mdke> anyhow, it's a valid tip
<Burgwork> yes, it is
* Burgwork is having a really really bad day
<mdke> ah
<mdke> sorry to hear that
<Burgwork> hey, they happen
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-15
<jsgotangco> let's just talk about sprints *after* docstring freeze :)
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, for dapper+1?
<jsgotangco> basically yeah
<Burgwork> dapper +1 is more workable for me. I might actually be able to get time off and will be able to apply myself more to actual docs, given that I would be finished the book
<jsgotangco> ooh kde updates
<jsgotangco> goodie
<Burgwork> bah, kde
<jsgotangco> shaddup
<Burgwork> lol
<Burgwork> :)
<jsgotangco> have you moved already?
<Burgwork> thank jsgotangco, you made me feel better
<Burgwork> yep
<jsgotangco> with net?
<Burgwork> going in on the 14th
<jsgotangco> ahh nice
* jsgotangco arrived way too early at work
<Burgwork> what is your timezone again?
<jsgotangco> +8
<jsgotangco> it s only 7:20am
<Burgwork> ah
<Burgwork> I was awake at 7am. Then I went back to sleep for another 2 hours
<jsgotangco> i wish i could do that
<jsgotangco> ive been doing 2 jobs lately
<jsgotangco> i slept around 1am a few hours ago and woke at at 6
<jsgotangco> :/
* ompaul just got back from lug business - we will own the world and everybody will run our software one day, sorry, let me rewrite that, we will own the world and everybody will share our software one day :-)
<mhz> jsgotangco: there is a HTML bultin option for users to use html instead of wikisyntax but it is 'off' for security reasons. However, if enabled, the parser works like this:  html parser {{{ #!html bla bla <tagfu>bla</tagfu> ginger bla }}}
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> this is if for a gui editor?
<mhz> id?
<mhz> sorry. if?
<jsgotangco> if?
* mhz wonders how useful could this be for -dco purposes and moin fans
<mhz> you said: this is if for a gui editor?
<jsgotangco> ahh i think i get you now
<jsgotangco> bah bad english at 7:30am
<mhz> -dco = -doc
<mhz> hehehe
<n17> hello
<LaserJock> hi
<n17> I have an awkward question
<n17> i've been struggling to compile a ndiswrapper for days for a wireless device
<LaserJock> n17: have you tried #ubuntu?
<LaserJock> n17: or wiki.ubuntu.com ?
<n17> they aren't paying any attention to me
<n17> and that wasn't all that helpful
<n17> wiki i mean
<LaserJock> did you do a search for ndiswrapper on wiki.ubuntu.com
<n17> yes
<n17> the drivers they listed....aren't compatible
<n17> i could look again
<LaserJock> n17: did you look at http://ndiswrapper.sourceforge.net/mediawiki/index.php/List
<n17> no.
<n17> i'll check that out -hold on  sec....
<LaserJock> could we just start with a DocTeam irc sprint? Get everybody together for a day to work on docs? or is that already planned?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, sure we tried before though
<LaserJock> when?
* jsgotangco personally doesn't want to talk about sprints now
<jsgotangco> pre-breezy
<LaserJock> sorry
<LaserJock> I just thought that maybe we had more people now
<n17> well, i found libusb-0.1.11, but it's missing the files i need to install into the ndiswrapper
<n17> sorry to interrupt
<n17> this is totally frustrating
<LaserJock> n17: have you tried the ubuntu forums?
<n17> yeah. a couple of times.  None of those methods work very well
<n17> I mean, i haven't posted a question....maybe I should post a question about this?
<LaserJock> n17: you might, the thing is that I (we) are not in a very good position to be giving support. #ubuntu is the support channel but if you haven't been able to get an answer there maybe a forum post could do the trick
<n17> yeah. I've been able to make some headway using the forums, i'm just in this weird unworkable spot and i don't know what to do 
<n17> i don't even know if i could explain it....
<n17> i'll try #ubuntu again and if i get passed over i'll just try to figure it out myself
<n17> thank you for, at the least, trying to help me
<n17> maybe i'll be back
<LaserJock> n17: good luck, sorry I'm not much help. I really don't know anything about ndiswrapper
<Kyral> LJ mind if I look over the Package Guide and write some things?
<Kyral> I need to earn SVN access soon
<lambert> n17: you still here?
<LaserJock> Kyral: yeah, go for it. Send patches either directly to me or to the -doc list
<LaserJock> Kyral: do you have a svn checkout of the repo?
<Kyral> LaserJock: nope
<LaserJock> Kyral: get one ;-)
<Kyral> I'm actually trying to clear my HD of junk lol
<LaserJock> well this isn't junk :-)
<Kyral> Someone write a script to search and destroy all the emacs backup files on system!
<Kyral> Whats the command anyway
<Kyral> I'm not well acquanted with SVN
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<Kyral> I should see if my FSF email works
<Kyral> Checkout in progress
<jsgotangco> you joined the FSF?
<LaserJock> sweet, I just got irrsi installed on the iMac
<Kyral> jsgotangco: yah
<Kyral> as an Associate Member
<Kyral> why?
<ompaul> Burgwork, I have done what I am going to do tonight
<ompaul> Burgwork, I'll be back for another hour in about 10 hours 
<Burgwork> ompaul, cool, just tell me when you are done
<jsgotangco> Kyral, is that lifetime?
<Kyral> jsgotangco: as long as you pay your dues
<LaserJock> Kyral: how much?
<Kyral> but they are tax-detuctable in the US
<Burgwork> yer pound of flesh
<jsgotangco> what do you get?
<Kyral> yanno
<Kyral> I'll just link you
<Kyral> https://www.fsf.org/associate/index_html
<jsgotangco> Inspire three other people to join  the FSF as associate members, and receive a personalized greeting recorded by Richard Stallman or Eben Moglen for your answering machine, voicemail or home page.
<Kyral> That scares me lol
<Burgwork> "Jerome, I am your father:
<Burgwork> "
<jsgotangco> "your phone service uses non-free software"
<jsgotangco> scary
<Kyral> lol
<Kyral> But %20 off FSF goods :D
<jsgotangco> the goods were made from nonfree systems
<jsgotangco> heh
<Burgwork> FSF: All your software are copyright us
<jsgotangco> oh you get to have a book cool
<Kyral> yup
<jsgotangco> Bootable Membership Card
<Kyral> petermcv@member.fsf.org works
<jsgotangco> hmm $10 isn't so bad
<ompaul> Burgwork, as I said I am away from the weekend (it being 00:33) here, I have an hour I can do before midday here, I will ping you when I can give no more to it
<Kyral> $5 for me
<ompaul> night 
<Kyral> Student :D
<jsgotangco> ahhh student
<LaserJock> yeah, I sure will miss those student discounts
<Kyral> But in the US its tax-deductable
<Kyral> well, -$10
<Kyral> so I thought
<Kyral> "Right now I'm paying $5/month for Cedega, which really hasn't given me any more good stuff"
<jsgotangco> heh
<Kyral> So I cancelled my Cedega updates and joined the FSF
<jsgotangco> FSF is better imo
<Kyral> and the idea of a bootable business card really amuses me
<jsgotangco> this is nice, at least i can flash my bootable membership card to RMS when he arrives here
<Kyral> huh
<Kyral> Where do you live?
<jsgotangco> Manila
<Kyral> he's going there?
<jsgotangco> RMS is coming over in August for a conference
<jsgotangco> Stallman
<Kyral> Yah I know who RMS is
<Kyral> Jeez do you think I'm an idiot?
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> bear with me its only 9am :)
<Kyral> The Faculty Advisor for COSI tried to get him to speak at Commencement
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder what FSF thinks of the US university systems?
<jsgotangco> he has a long list of requirements before accepting the invitation
<Kyral> lol I heard
<Kyral> Believe me I agree with most of them
<jsgotangco> "AC is desirable but not less than 74F"
<jsgotangco> or something like that
<Kyral> lol
<jsgotangco> "No Pets but cats are ok as long as they're friendly"
<Kyral> He would HATE Potsdam
<Burgwork> RMS, the rockstar
<Kyral> Potsdam, NY that is
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, we should find the right up and put it ont he smoking gun
<Burgwork> s/right/write
<jsgotangco> his needs?
<LaserJock> wants is more like it ;-)
<Burgwork> those crazy things he wants
<jsgotangco> i have his email
<jsgotangco> we ogranized this event
<jsgotangco> good thing the campus that we're going to hold this has its own hotel
<Kyral> Okay Shower
<Kyral> Hmm
<Kyral> kyral@ubuntu.com points to my college mail
<Kyral> better make my FSF mail point to my GMail
<jsgotangco> brb
<jsgotangco> moving to a new cucible
<LaserJock> Kyral: is GMail better than other email services?
<LaserJock> like Yahoo for example
<Burgwork> LaserJock, I would say yes
<LaserJock> oh my gosh, you can buy a GNU custom distro for $5,000 from FSF
<Burgwork> LaserJock, linky?
<LaserJock> https://agia.fsf.org/order/
<LaserJock> All the GNU software custom compiled for your computing platform
<LaserJock> and one copy of all printed manuals.
<Burgwork> isn't that distros ship for free?
<LaserJock> but you get a printed man page ;-)
<Burgwork> I could get the man pages printed for less
<LaserJock> I think it is just a way for people to contribute and feel all special
<LaserJock> plus you get a poster of the GPL preamble
<Burgwork> I guess so
<LaserJock> and 10 tee-shirts
<LaserJock> lol, makes me want to drop 5k
<Burgwork> I think the Ubuntu foundation would be a better place to drop 5k, honestly
<LaserJock> I think so to but I'm a bit biased that way
<Burgwork> nah, we aren't biased at all ;)
<Kyral> Honestly, my worst fear is turning into Stallman
<LaserJock> why? in what way?
<Burgwork> old, slightly crazy but somewhat respected?
<Kyral> Hyper eccientric?
<Kyral> Obi-Wan Kenobi without the awesomeness and Force?
<LaserJock> Kyral: lol, the only think you lack is age so I say you run a pretty good risk ;-)
<Kyral> ....
<Kyral> I'd rather end up like Linus
<LaserJock> btw, have you seen the vrms package?
<Kyral> the what?
<Kyral> and LJ, GMail pwns you
<LaserJock> vrms (Virtual Richard M. Stallman)
<Kyral> ....
<LaserJock> The vrms program will analyze the set of currently-installed packages on a Debian GNU/Linux system, and report all of the packages from the non-free tree which are currently installed.
<Kyral> I have to try this...
<Kyral> ....it picked up the linux-k7 package
<Kyral> madwifi modules...rar...the NVidia Driver...and Scilab
<Kyral> I swear Scilab was under GPL
<LaserJock> I don't think so
<LaserJock> I thought it was under non-free in debian
<Kyral> ...and it added itself as a monthly cronjob....
<LaserJock> just to keep all FSF members on the straight and narrow :-)
<Kyral> ...STFU
<Kyral> all and all about 19 packages
<LaserJock> not bad
<Kyral> just cut it to 15
<Kyral> 0.8% of 1983 packages installed
<LaserJock> I wonder what would happen on my iMac :p
<Kyral> though I can lose like 6 more because of all the LRM packs
<Kyral> Funny
<Kyral> it didn't pick up w32codecs
<Burgwork> Kyral, likely it looked in debian copyright
<LaserJock> Kyral: great, it must be GPL'd then ;-)
<Kyral> lol
<Burgwork> more likely w32codecs is badly constructed as a package
<Kyral> hmm
<Kyral> when I install Debian on my laptop I'll aim for 0 Non-Free
<Kyral> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/8409
<Kyral> Oh Acroread isn't GPL?
<Kyral> I think I have Envince anyway
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Kyral> Yah I do
<Kyral> Bye Bye Acroread
<LaserJock> I wish I could do that, evince just isn't there for me yet
<jsgotangco> me too
<jsgotangco> it couldn't do the forms we have at work
* jsgotangco decides to change his icons to yasis
<LaserJock> yeah, I have to do a lot of forms and I have to copy and paste out of .pdfs a lot
<Kyral> I'm using Tango
<jsgotangco> it doesnt jive much with brown
<Kyral> Oh I have the blue version
<Kyral> + I don't like the Brown
<LaserJock> I can't remember. I haven't seen my desktop for a couple days :(
<Kyral> I like white and greys
<LaserJock> Kyral: me too, here's a screenshot http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/8411
<Kyral> Bleh I try NOT to emulate Aqua :P
<LaserJock> well, I don't have much of a choice 
<jsgotangco> please dont add noise to the list :/
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, that directed at me?
<Burgwork> salut Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi Burgwork - no net at home yet?
<Burgwork> Madpilot, 14th
<jsgotangco> we have 272 people subscribed to -doc and every one of them receive that small exchange
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, sorry
<Madpilot> well, some of us just snickered :P
* Burgwork grumbles about xscreensaver and two computers
<Burgwork> my workmate has turned on the pretty opengl rendered screensavers, which cause my mouse to go jumpy
<Burgwork> anyway, have to go eat. Night all
<jsgotangco> night
<Madpilot> later
<jdub> i just answered some interview questions for fosdem
<jdub> thought you guys might be interested in one of my answers
<jdub> > 3. What, in Ubuntu, ashamed you the most ?
<jdub> Ooh, tough question, but a good one to think about... From my point of view,
<jdub> I'm disappointed that our less "developer focused" teams haven't had enough
<jdub> of a helping hand to be as effective as they could be. It's a tough problem
<jdub> in every code-oriented FOSS project, but I think it's an area where we could
<jdub> improve quite a lot in Ubuntu.
<jdub> 
<jdub> something i think about quite regularly :-)
<jdub> so if you guys ever have suggestions for things i can help with, let me know
<jsgotangco> awwwww
<Kyral> hmm
<Kyral> There is already an Install guide in the SVN Checkout...
<Kyral> So when Ubuntu Express comes out do I just expand on the current one or write a completely new one?
<mhz> jdub: i agree with you
<mhz> I have thought about this too from time to time
<mhz> and I usually get to similar conclusions
<mhz> m a r k e t i n g
<mhz> Usually, a FLOSS project is to focused on 'coding issues'
<mhz> and 'end-users' feel very 'aside' of the project, like not fiting anywhere
<jsgotangco> well
<mhz> jdub: however, in ubuntu, I know there are many good intentions to revert that
<mhz> but we still may not be aiming correctly
<mhz> I have even thought about more agressive marketing
<mhz> Karma points is one nice idea but it does not consider many contributions, like artwork, wiki, irc, install fests, howtofests (we'll have our first one in April if you read the docs I sent you), conferences, talks, organizing stuff, ML admins, etc
<Madpilot> mhz: what's the difference btwn a howtofest & an installfest?
<mhz> jdub: those may not be considered 'tech' point but surely deserve attention and lots of motivation
<mhz> Madpilot: well, maybe it is not the best name but it was what I came up with after a shower... HowTo fest: users vote for a couple of topics prior to the event date and on the event we provide tutors who will help th voters learn stepbystep about DB's, python, Admin stuff, etc. It is a step for people who already do installs and have been using linux for a little while
<mhz> For example: HowTo install and run Zope?
<mhz> How to admin your own Mail server?
<mhz> Madpilot: stuff like that
<mhz> from lower intermediate level and up
<Madpilot> mhz: cool idea - we've just started doing installfests again at our local LUG - I might mention howtofests as well
<mhz> or maybe from upper beginner level
<mhz> Madpilot: please do so
<mhz> You use same date for two purposes
<mhz> the logistic issues may be to have all technology related available
<Madpilot> our installfest last month wound up being a howtofest of sorts after the first two hours anyway :P
<mhz> I can't imagine myself tutoring about Moin without people actually running at least a MMDE version
<Madpilot> (except for the Gentoo-installers, who were still compiling X or something...
<mhz> lol
* mhz still is in love with Gentoo
<mhz> Madpilot: yeah, making two kind of fests on same day bring people of different backgrounds to share expriences and help
<mhz> Madpilot: jdub: i know there are great howto's out there but it will never be the same for a newbie to have a doc or a tutor with him
<mhz> jdub: so, yes, it is dissapointing there's much less contribution in non coding areas but that failure -if it is- it's our responsibility because we are not promoting well, we are not using marketing well. Evenelizers can go to a conference or a LoCo team meeting and will certainly encourage people while they are there but that is it. After 2 weeks things go back to neutral.
<mhz> jdub: Instances like the the Letter doc-team and another team are doing is a good starting point
<mhz> letting people know the status or needs 
<mhz> But i insist we need to be more agressive
<mhz> .oO(maybe 'agressive' is not the right word)
<mhz> jdub: ?
<mhz> .oO( "I see dead people" )
<jsgotangco> Interrogation
<jsgotangco> :D
<mhz> lol
<mhz> jsgotangco: you couldn't help it, right?
<jsgotangco> heh
<mhz> .oO(Maybe I should try to keep my answers lot shorter... 0    1    0    1     0 )
<Madpilot> I just had a brainwave - the Mepis/Ubuntu deriv. will have to be called "Ubuntu ME" - look how well the name worked for MS... :D
<jsgotangco> Ubuntu MEH :P
<jsgotangco> whoa map cleanup
<Madpilot> hmm?
<jsgotangco> UbuntuWorldWide
<jsgotangco> no one lives in antartica anymore
<Madpilot> there's still at least one person in the mid-Atlantic, though
<jsgotangco> must be his own private island or yacht :D
<Madpilot> it isn't Bermuda, it's right out in the middle - odd :P
<EricNeon> hi all~
<Madpilot> hi EricNeon
<jsgotangco> lol
<EricNeon> long time no see
<mhz> .oO( eye doctor, please!)
<EricNeon> :)
<robotgeek> wow, docu wiki seems nice
<Madpilot> what?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: http://doc-book.sourceforge.net/homepage/
<robotgeek> someone posted this to the list, it apparently stroes it as xml internally
<robotgeek> stores, rather
<Madpilot> interesting - we could abandon HTML converting/building entirely...
<robotgeek> dunno what issues we might have with it
<jsgotangco> i could test it on my machine later
<jsgotangco> the problem would probably be the way we use entities
<robitaille> is there a time set for the next docteam meeting?
<jsgotangco> today? none
<jsgotangco> i'll just defer it for next week
<jsgotangco> i dont even know if something happened the last meeting
* jsgotangco has to check logs this weekend and do cleanup
<robotgeek> nice gui too, but i don't know if we can just "move over" to another format
<robotgeek> Madpilot: it's actually a bit painful to install, heh
<ompaul> Burgwork, is there a position with regard to historical information on the faq, at this stage moving to warty from debian seems to be a bit of a redundant point
<ompaul> Burgwork, I am not going to do anything else with the faq before the weekend, however if you want to leave it place I will do something with it on Monday.
<mdke> Kyral, i don't think the current install guide will be helpful. You should build on the guidalinex guide, because ubuntu-express is loosely built on the guidalinex install system
* mdke struggles to read all the off-topic scrollback
<mdke> hey jdub 
<mdke> you got a few minutes?
<jdub> mdke: not right now, my net connection just came back up and i have shit to sort out - sorry 8)
* roblaptop looks in
<mdke> jdub, no problem, I'll mail you I think
<mdke> hi roblaptop 
<roblaptop> hi mdke 
<mdke> jdub, ok email sent: I'd love it if you have a look, it's kinda advocacy related so i'm sure you'll have loads of ideas
<jdub> mdke: oh, funny
<jdub> mdke: that's very timely
<mdke> yeah?
<mdke> jdub, you think you might have a few moments for that in the next few days or so?
<jdub> mdke: i've been doing some spec stuff for the artists we're contracting, and was wondering what was going on with the flash bits, to make sure we could have them *very* sexy, and consistent with the other artwork
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> well
<jdub> hmm
<jdub> i'm leaving for europe on monday
<jdub> but i have a few days in the office in london
<mdke> ooh
<mdke> when?
<jdub> um
<jdub> i can't get to ubuntu
<jdub> look at my wiki page
<mdke> k
<jdub> between oswc and fosdem
<jdub> forget the dates ;)
<mdke> 18-24 feb
<mdke> that will be a bit late for those flash guys, they are keen to start soon
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> right
<mdke> any ideas you can stick on that wiki page would rock tho
<jdub> ok
<mdke> coolie
<jdub> i don't think you gave the page name
<mdke> crap
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GreatFeaturesOfUbuntu?action=show
<jdub> ta
<jdub> dude
<mdke> ta to you
* jdub does a brief hulk smash
<jdub> great BENEFITS of ubuntu :-)
* mdke shrugs :)
<mdke> stuff like "it's free" won't work, because it's hard to animate
<mdke> i dunno
<jdub> it's free isn't a benefit
<jdub> that's a feature
<mdke> lol
<mdke> anyhow
<mdke> any ideas gratefully received
<jdub> "collect and share your photos"
<jdub> ^ benefit
* mdke nods
<mdke> good one
<jdub> f-spot with tags and flickr and shit
<jdub> ^ feature
<jdub> :-)
<mdke> btw while you're here, I did some color modifications on yelp: http://mdke.org/images/yelp
<mdke> that's on ubuntu 5.10, but you get the idea
<jdub> have web issues atm
<jdub> will look when that's fixed
<mdke> thanks
* robotgeek goes to blog something
* mdke goes to eat something
<mhz> hmmm, there is so much nice docs in the wiki... Maybe we could use the Moin:SinglePageSlideShow macro ??
* robotgeek goes and looks
<roblaptop> ?
<roblaptop> I was going to work on something tonight, but got side tracked
<mhz> If we used that Moin macro, we could just render pages ready to be presented at a talk
* mdke comes back
<mhz> well, of course that means we have to add a nice background and Headings look in in the CSS and that will be it. This macro cuts every H2 and make it a single slide, full screen
<robotgeek> mhz: we could use that for the guides linked from "UserDocumentation"
<mhz> yup
<mdke> the thing is, normally people look for one specific piece of documentation, not lots together
<mhz> I used to give Moin talks
<mhz> and people got very surprised with such nice and simple rendering
<mhz> mdke: yes. Case: Matt gives a talk about Ubuntu, he wants to use the content already in the wiki (for any purpose). So he opens firefox, enters url, choose Actions -> SlideShow and voila! ... the pages is automagically rendered as slides with a nice menu to browse pages
<mdke> ok, that would help for things like development pages I suppose
<mdke> not docs though, I don't think
<robotgeek> mdke: someguy in #kubuntu was asking about a screencast intro to ubuntu, is something like that on the cards, and do you know a link?
<mdke> what is a screencast?
<robotgeek> mdke: or a flash intro movie to ubuntu
<mhz> mdke: yes, it could. I mentioned it because you know I write almost 90% of my docs in Moin and so, I just do one document that is used for many purposes (normal wiki support, presentations, story telling, etc)..yeah, s c a r y :D
<mkde> sorry, can't connect to my irc client
<mkde> robotgeek: yes, there will be one, hopefully
<mkde> that is what I was talking about just now with jdub
<mkde> we're just trying to work out what to include in it
<robotgeek> and canonical is hiring someone to do it? (so that i can tell the guy not to waste his time :) )
<mkde> yes, but I'm not sure about kubuntu
<robotgeek> heh, okay
<robotgeek> thanks mdke 
<mkde> np
<mkde> damn dapper has suddenly become all slow
* mkde moves his mouse around jerkily
<mdke> ah
<jjesse> problems?
<mdke> yeah, it's slow :(
<bur[n] er> is there a "meeting" tonight?
<bur[n] er> mdke: htop? :)
<robotgeek> howdy bur[n] er 
<bur[n] er> hi robotgeek 
<bur[n] er> sorry I haven't been around... lotsa work... i gotta jet in a couple minutes again, but I plan on doc-writing this evening
<bur[n] er> so yeah... I was reading the ML about voice via VOIP and a "doc sprint" which sounded cool :)
<jjesse> it would be nice, but there are still those that are on dial up :(
<jsgotangco> :)
* robotgeek doens't know where he'll be in 2 months time, lol
<jsgotangco> i'll just post a meeting sched for next week
<jjesse> in #ubuntu-meeting
<jjesse> ?
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> and also in this channel's topic
<bur[n] er> i thought fridays were meeting days?
<jsgotangco> bur[n] er, not every friday though
<jjesse> every other friday?
<bur[n] er> oh
<jsgotangco> bi-weekly is the correct term :)
<bur[n] er> every fortnight ;)
<jsgotangco> much better
<dTa-Aenigma> could anyone help with with regards to the installation of Ubuntu
<robotgeek> Aeninga: ask in #ubuntu, this is not a support channel
<robotgeek> :)
<Aeninga> sorry
<robotgeek> it's ok
<mdke> jjesse, don't worry about dialup, as long as you have a telephone :)
* jsgotangco hates telephone conferences
* jjesse hates them as well
<jsgotangco> i gotta sleep
<jsgotangco> night
<mdke> Burgwork, shall we have separate animations for language selector and launchpad-integration/translate?
<Burgwork> sure, if we ahve time
<Burgwork> we need to prioritize what we want
<mdke> sure
<mdke> do we want screensaver?
<Burgwork> don't think so
<mdke> ok, i'll delete it
<Burgwork> don't delete it, put it into the "if we have time"
<Burgwork> I think we absolutely need to talk about g-a-i
<Burgwork> and the translations stuff
<mdke> oh sure
<mdke> what stage is gai at in terms of its UI?
<Burgwork> let me check with mvo
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> it crashes for me at the moment :) so animations might be tricky
<Burgwork> tell mvo about that
<Burgwork> yes, seems to be stable now
<mdke> i'll do an upgrade and file a bug if i see it again
<mdke> i'll just boot into dapper and see if I can thinking of something for the fspot/flickr one
<jjesse> what is gai?
<Burgwork> jjesse, add applications or gnome-app-install
<jjesse> hmm maybe i should take alook at what dapper ubuntu looks like :)
<Burgwork> gai was shipped with breezy
<jjesse> i haven't looked at ubuntu since hoary
<mdke> hmm, fspot isn't installed by default
<Burgwork> nope, because mono isn't
<mdke> will it be in for dapper?
<LaserJock> mdke: I was wondering if in libs/global.ent it would be better to have the ubuntu-packages url be http://packages.ubuntu.com rather than http://packages.ubuntu.com/breezy ?
<mdke> LaserJock, sounds good to me, go ahead and change it
<LaserJock> mdke: ok
<mdke> LaserJock, btw, I made a slimmed down preface.xml for the desktopguide, feel free to check it out and copy if for the packaging guide, if you like it
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, thanks for the heads up
<jjesse> wow downloading from cdimage is sooooooo slow
<mhz> jdub: ping
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-16
* bshumate turns on a bright lamp
<bshumate> let the interrogations begin! ;-) ;-)
* Kyral holds up his FSF card in defense
<bshumate> that has to be the best posting to the list i've ever seen...
<bshumate> was there supposed to be a card? i don't remember getting my card!
<Madpilot> which one?
* bshumate goes to look for his card
<bshumate> Madpilot: the one with the subject of "interrogations" earlier this week, or maybe this past weekend
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> it was a good laugh at first read
<jsgotangco> but then the writer just chose the wrong words
<bshumate> yeah, i knew right away he just meant "questions" but it was a hoot though. ;-)
<bshumate> aha!  the 'lil business card cd! that's right!
<bshumate> Kyral: have you tried out the distribution on the card?
<Kyral> bshumate: I haven't gotten it yet
<Kyral> it was a joke
<bshumate> ahh...i am gonna go try it out real quick...
<jsgotangco> hrmm i seem to have accidentally erased my key pair in my usb stick
<crimsun> hopefully you have a backup and/or a revocation cert!
<jsgotangco> i do have a revoke cert
<jsgotangco> i just couldnt find the backup now
<jsgotangco> :/
<jsgotangco> crimsun, i just send out the revoke cert to my list right?
<jsgotangco> good thing that key isn't well connected yet
<Madpilot> Burgwork: ping
<crimsun> jsgotangco: if you're positive you can't locate the backup, import the cert locally (which revokes it), then push your key up again. The problem is that you then need to tell everyone to pull.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgwork> Madpilot, pong
<Madpilot> Burgwork: you free tomorrow?
<Burgwork> yep
<Madpilot> cool - call me at Clive's sometime this evening, then - you must be just about to leave work
<Burgwork> ya, pretty son
<jsgotangco> have a good weekend all :)
<robotgeek> howdy KingBahamut 
<robotgeek> incoming 
<Madpilot> hmm?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: patches for Kubuntu Desktop Guide
<Madpilot> cool - I've got Ub Desktop Guide patch out that hasn't been applied yet
<Madpilot> probably a dumb question, but what's the difference between a .diff & a .patch?
<crimsun> probably the same thing; I presume they're both unified diffs?
<crimsun> file foo.diff; file foo.patch
<robotgeek> crimsun: svn diff are the same?
<crimsun> robotgeek: pretty much
<robotgeek> mine are all svn diff's
* robotgeek needs to get svn commit access soon, it's getting pretty tough to coordinate with other people
<Madpilot> robotgeek: I think mdke put a bunch of names in for commit - mine, yours, I think a few others
<robotgeek> Madpilot: ah, that would be very nice
<robotgeek> i am already coordinating work of 4 ppl
<Madpilot> robotgeek: you made Membership, right?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i havent applied yet
<Madpilot> ah - I'm not sure if commit access is given to non-members
<Madpilot> but if you put your name down, you'll get in, I'm sure of it
<robotgeek> hmm, okay. i think i'll apply
<robotgeek> the next meeting will be on 21'st
* robotgeek will clean up wiki page, heh
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda doesn't have the next meeting date listed, robotgeek - which page are you looking at?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i assumed they were 2 weeks apart?
<Madpilot> give or take a few days, from what I've seen - like the DocTeam meetings
<robotgeek> hmm, i hope it's not going to be the 18th
<Madpilot> ah, next DocTeam meeting is listed as being tomorrow, but no time set... blah
<robotgeek> either 4/5 utc, if i read the chart correctly
<Madpilot> 0400UTC?
<LaserJock> Madpilot: just commited your patch
<robotgeek> yeah, i guess. which means that I might have actually missed the meeting?
<Madpilot> LaserJock: thanks
<robotgeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingTimes
<jsgotangco> hmmm mepis has this nice userguide downloadable as pdf
<rob> :)
* jsgotangco goes back to finishing an arcile
* rob is bored, and hot
<jsgotangco> bleah here's a copy of People
<rob> does the wiki have a "licence"?
<rob> I can't remember what the outcome of that discussion was
* rob pokes whoever
* dsas pokes rob back
<rob> wiki = what licence?
<Madpilot> have we decided on one yet?
<Madpilot> there was talk of just PD'ing the whole thing
<rob> I always assumed the same as the docs, but I can't find it written on there anywhere that it is
<rob> this worries me:
<rob> The website HTML, text, images audio, video, software or other content that is made available on this website are the property of someone - the author in the case of content produced elsewhere and reproduced here with permission, or Canonical or its content suppliers. Before you use this content in some way please take care to ensure that you have the relevant rights and permissions from the copyright holder.
<jsgotangco> there is no decision on that yet
<rob> if I wanted to take parts of the wiki to add to a doc, I'd have to get the permission from anyone whos edited the page from the sounds of that
<Madpilot> rob: where's that from?
<rob> http://www.ubuntu.com/legal
<dsas> rob: that's right
<manicka> what time is the doc-team meeting?
<rob> wheres mdke when you need him? :)
<Madpilot> hmm, that's messy...
<rob> oh, is there a meeting soon?
<dsas> there's a spec about it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WikiLicensing
<Madpilot> there's a meeting mentioned for today - Saturday Feb 11 - but no actual time mentioned...
<rob> ocuh
<rob> s/ocuh/ouch
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<manicka> aren't they usually 1400 or 2200
* rob wonders how his old baby is doing
<rob> the only agenda item:
<rob> #
<rob> Use of common files for a number of documents. For example, preface.xml and getting-help.xml should be common between all documents. (mdke)
<rob> #
<rob> could be a quiet one
<jsgotangco> because no one bothered to follow up on things in the wiki after the last meeting (which i wasn't around since it was 6am)
<Madpilot> can we at least decide when the meeting is going to be? if it's 1400UTC that's in less than 5 hours, and I need some sleep before then...
<rob> I might be awake
<jsgotangco> nahhh i'll just set up a meeting on the 17th
<rob> ?
<jsgotangco> dinner brb
<mdke> Madpilot, rob, the wiki will be in the public domain
<rob> hi mdke 
<mdke> hello
<mdke> what's up?
<rob> but what about https://www.ubuntu.com/legal
<mdke> that's for the website
<rob> not according to that
<jsgotangco> mdke, the question is "when" we've already talked about this moving to PD for a while
<mdke> jsgotangco, it hasn't been done yet
<rob> but a link to that is displayed on the wiki on every page also
<jsgotangco> who/what group is responsible for such
<mdke> rob, yeah, but the copyright section of that page doesn't apply I would say. there is only a link because of the trademark stuff
* jsgotangco leaves this talk for -legal :)
<mdke> the copyright section specifically refers to "this website"
<mdke> it's not ideally phrased tho
<rob> but couldn't one argue that the wiki is part of the web site, it looks just like the rest of the website
<rob> in fact, if you didn't know better on first glance you might assume it is
<mdke> one could yes
<jsgotangco> mdke, i think you're the most qualified to tackle this based on your profession imo
<mdke> ok, well it's not ideal as rob says
<mdke> but bottom line, it's all irrelevant unless you're going to use some of the wiki material for commercial purposes
<rob> hmm..
<mdke> is Madpilot awake?
<Madpilot> mdke: mostly
<mdke> yay
<mdke> Madpilot, any idea on Corey's plans for the weekend, he said he might not have internet access?
<Madpilot> mdke: he doesn't at his new place; he might be at his girlfriend's, though, which does have
<mdke> ah right
<rob> nice, go to visit the gf just to bludge off her internet connection :)
<mdke> Madpilot, thanks for the patch btw
<Madpilot> rob: pretty much - worse, it's the neighbours unsecured wireless :D
<rob> hahaha
<rob> nice!
* rob peers over at his wireless access point
<mdke> i wonder if we really need "automatically turn on NUM lock when GNOME starts"
<mdke> doesn't that happen properly nowadays?
* jsgotangco no idea he's a laptop user
<rob> mdke, whats the status of the meeting?
<Madpilot> it didn't in Breezy, mdke - has that changed for Dapper?
<mdke> rob, no idea, I didn't know where was one today
<mdke> Madpilot, dunno, I only have laptops
<rob> according to the page there is, no time listed though
<mdke> jerome, any idea?
<jsgotangco> i dunno who edited the page
<jsgotangco> but if we had a meeting that was supposed to be hours ago at 14utc because the last was 22
<rob> last edited 2006-02-08 15:43:49 by MatthewEast
<mdke> that was me adding an item
<rob> :)
<Madpilot> 14UTC on Saturday is 4hrs from now, jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> saturday?
<mdke> jsgotangco, it says the 11th
<Madpilot> 14UTC on the 11th, anyway, whatever day that happens to be for people... :P
<mdke> it was Naaman i think, he might have got the wrong date
<jsgotangco> guys let's just move it to the 17th or on a saturday
<jsgotangco> i think it's too soon to declare a meeting in a few hours
<mdke> rob, btw, did you notice that in yelp, xrefs go to the top of the nearest sect1, rather than to the precise section? any idea if that can be improved?
<mdke> jsgotangco, agreed
<rob> maybe, though olinks
<jsgotangco> and please add yourself in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingTimes
* jsgotangco is guilty of not adding himself although he did the page
* rob looked at that page, and decided it was too muc work to make sense of it all
<rob> the moin code behind that table is horrod
<Madpilot> tables in moin markup are fairly horrid anyway
<Madpilot> actually, tables in any markup - including HTML - are horrid...
<rob> not true, mediawiki is ok for simple tables
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> but we love horrid syntax
* mdke nods
<Madpilot> heh - DocBook, anyone? 
<jsgotangco> moin tables are supposed to be simple but it becomes too complicated when you make it look like a spreadsheet
<rob> hmm
<rob> I can't log in to the wiki
<rob> it keeps telling me my password is wrong, even though I just reset it
<jsgotangco> it must be som LP voodoo at work
<rob> dodgy LP
<jsgotangco> i can edit though
<mdke> hi mpt 
<jsgotangco> Build instructions for Songbird 0.1 Proof-of-Concept:
<jsgotangco> Step 1. Don't.
<jsgotangco> lol
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: honest compiling instructions, at least
<jsgotangco> it looks hot though
<jsgotangco> jdub, august 18-19
<LaserJock> mdke: is it ok for me to  apply patches from the mailing list?
<LaserJock> I feel kind of bad watching peoples patches just sit there when I can easily apply them
<mdke> LaserJock, yes, although normally it's best to leave things to whoever takes care of the particular doc. So, I'll always leave kubuntu stuff to jjesse
<LaserJock> yeah, I just see that at times you guys are really busy or away and I would like to help if I can :-)
<mdke> sure, that's cool
<LaserJock> but I don't want to step on any toes or get in the way
<mdke> no problem
<mdke> with Madpilot's patches, they can be applied straight away
<mdke> he only doesn't have commit access because he lost his gpg passphrase
<LaserJock> I see
<Madpilot> ...and I haven't heard from anyone yet regarding access with my new gpg key... :P
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-17
<dhalgren> hi. i have been subscribed to the mailing list for a few days, trying to see if there is anything I can help with, but I am still not certain. I am not a hacker, but have been using linux for about 5 years, ubuntu since just before christmas.
<dhalgren> ah, clearly u r not here at all
<dhalgren> therefore, neither am i.
<dhalgren> i might try again later. we shall see.
<dhalgren> goodbye
<Snake__> Hey can someone help me out with svn
<Snake__> please
<theCore> yea, me
<theCore> what do you want to know?
<Snake__> theCore: I type svn update in the dir, and it tells me 
<Snake__> snake@Laptop:~/Projects/kubuntuguide/kubuntuguide$ svn up
<Snake__> svn: PROPFIND request failed on '/repos/trunk'
<Snake__> svn: PROPFIND of '/repos/trunk': 405 Method Not Allowed (https://docteam.ubuntu.com)
<Madpilot> the docteam svn repo seems to be down with the rest of the servers
<Snake__> Oh
<Snake__> :(
* Snake__ doesnt know if he should work on his chapter without checking out.....
<Snake__> Madpilot: should I?
<Madpilot> were you current before the repo went down?
<Snake__> No, according to my mail box a number of patchs went in
<Madpilot> probably wait, then - maybe just do the work in a seperate file, then merge locally before you produce the diff?
<Snake__> Thats what I ment, if were to work on one now, and I did the diff, would it affect it?
<Madpilot> I'm not sure, but it could 
<Snake__> Hmmm ill just write it, then when I Check out ill just toss it in where it belongs
<LaserJock_away> I would think if the changes in the commits you missed were on different docs then it wouldn't matter
<glick> hello
<kbrooks> well!
<kbrooks> I'd ;like to talk the talk
<glick> ubuntu documentation pretty much sucks
<glick> ya'll know that right?
<kbrooks> Can any of you guess what Ubuntu doesnt have?
<kbrooks> MORE DOCUMENTATION
<glick> decent documentation
<glick> kbrooks, i was just talkin about that in #ubuntu
<glick> we need an official documentation project
<kbrooks> whart do you mean, decen? show me indecent documentation
<glick> the ubuntu documentation project
<glick> kbrooks, our documentation cant be spread out over numberous wikis n stuff
<glick> our documentation should be on par with SuSE's documentation
<kbrooks> glick, so they have to be centralized?
<glick> SuSE's documentation is the best docs i have ever seen
<kbrooks> well, should be
<glick> kbrooks, yeah i think so
<glick> the docs should be centralized
<glick> for consistancy and quality control
<kbrooks> somehow.
<LaserJock> wow, what are you guys talking about, we have a documentation team and your in their IRC channel
<kbrooks> LaserJock, project not team
<glick> LaserJock, but the docs still suck
<kbrooks> project != team
<glick> reletively speaking
<kbrooks> glick, show me a example of sucky documentation
<glick> the documentation is not thorough, nor user friendly, and ubuntu is sposed to be the linux for the poeple
<LaserJock> but if you want to improve it help out
<glick> LaserJock, i want to, but i think we should a specific project devoted to it, there shouldnt be seperate docs for ubuntu/kubuntu
<glick> there should be user guide
<glick> administrator guide
<glick> and developers guide
<LaserJock> we are working on those
<kbrooks> glick, duplication of woek?
<kbrooks> LaserJock, no, DUPLICATION
<glick> kbrooks, the model suse uses
<LaserJock> and Kubuntu and Ubuntu are different projects so they need different docs
<kbrooks> that needs to be addressed 
<LaserJock> we have generic docs too
<glick> LaserJock, no they dont, their different desktops
<LaserJock> no
<kbrooks> LaserJock, stop it
<LaserJock> they are different iso's
<kbrooks> glick, stop  it
<LaserJock> they have different metapackages
<glick> kbrooks, whatchu talkin about? stop what?
<kbrooks> lets get to terms here
<glick> kbrooks, i had trouble finding info on how to build a basic ubuntu package from source code
<glick> i had to go to the debian guide
<glick> and had to change several things to make it work right in ubuntu
<glick> thas not good documentation
<kbrooks> glick: so thats indecent...
<LaserJock> glick: I'm working on the Ubuntu Packaging Guide but it is still in an alpha stage
<kbrooks> LaserJock, LOOK
<Madpilot> glick: just got back here - but your point about Ubuntu docs being spread over wiki/doc.u.c/elsewhere is a known issue, and is going to be addressed, probably post-Dapper
<kbrooks> lets get to terms here
<glick> i just think we should follow suse, we need documentation that can be used read by both the newbie and the expert as a reference
<kbrooks> glick: yeah
<kbrooks> Madpilot, scroll above
<Madpilot> glick: got a URL for the SuSE docs, please?
<LaserJock> I believe that SuSe has people paid to write documentation and is a much older project
<glick> http://en.opensuse.org/Documentation
<glick> check out the 9.3 administration guide
<glick> and the user guide
<Madpilot> thanks
<LaserJock> glick: your very welcome to write some documentation if you want
<glick> LaserJock, i want to
<kbrooks> glick: whats good there?
<kbrooks> glick: me too
<glick> why should have a wiki that people can add too and edit
<glick> and with every release we release an official documentation release
<Madpilot> glick: "we should" or "why should we"?
<glick> we should
<LaserJock> we do
<Madpilot> um, we've got one... wiki.ubuntu.com
<Madpilot> it's even back up now...
<glick> Madpilot, i know and thas cool
<glick> but with every release we should have an official documentation release
<LaserJock> we do
<Madpilot> we've got that too, glick...
<Madpilot> System menu --> Help...
<kbrooks> glick: be exhaustive
<LaserJock> and help.ubuntu.com has the released docs too
<kbrooks> the team needs more informatopm
<kbrooks> information*
<glick> what im suggesting is that we create exhaustive and centralized documentation like on suse
<glick> like how do i set up firewall on ubuntu
<glick> that should be a chapter
<glick> or basic sh usage
<kbrooks> glick: subchapter
<kbrooks> ;)
<glick> right
<Madpilot> glick: plans are afoot to get the wiki under tighter control, and integrate it more with the regular docs
<glick> how do i set up and configure a basic webserver
<Madpilot> glick: get the current svn setup, there's a whole new serverguide for Dapper
<glick> i mean the documentation exists, but its not centralized, i just think ubuntu would be even more adopted if for instance you could download a giant pdf "the ubuntu bible" book or something along those lines
<Madpilot> glick: are you on the docteam mailing list?
<glick> Madpilot, not yet
<glick> how do i get on that?
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Contact <-- glick
<glick> is it daily digest or do i get a million emails a day
<LaserJock> guys, we have a svn repo witht the doc team repo that holds the docs that are seen at doc.ubuntu.com
<Madpilot> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository <-- the SVN docteam repo
<Madpilot> glick: you can get digest, but it's not usually a busy list without it
<Madpilot> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc-commits <-- you might also want to subscribe to this, it's an automated list of what's been committed to the docteam SVN repo
<kbrooks> subbbbbbbbbbscribbbbbbbed!
<LaserJock> the docs are automatically installed on K/Ubuntu so it is there, but we currently don't do .pdf's
<LaserJock> we use help.ubuntu.com instead
<Madpilot> we probably could - there's probably a DocBook2pdf creator...
<LaserJock> we just use a different stylesheet, I think. xsltproc will output .pdf
<glick> id like to contribute to the developer guide
<glick> like how to set up cvs, compilers, compiler toos, package building, etc
<Madpilot> glick: go for it - drop a note to the ML and ask what needs doing
<LaserJock> glick: well, I'm working on the Ubuntu Packaging Guide. it can be found at doc.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> but I'm more focused on packaging then a general developer guide at this time
<glick> ill have to start after midterms next week
<crimsun> we should discourage using cvs for fresh, singly homed projects
<glick> crimsun, why is that?
<glick> its been working out fine for me
<LaserJock> glick: just get a checkout of the docteam svn repo and send diffs to the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<crimsun> glick: for fresh, singly homed projects, there are (imo) better solutions
<crimsun> bzr and svn to say the least
<glick> oh that may be
<glick> is there such a thing as pdf 2 docbook or something like that?
<LaserJock> umm, openoffice can save as xml
<glick> yeah but if i have a pdf how can i edit it?
<glick> damn never believe a word weather people tell you
<LaserJock> hmm, not sure. I can't think of anything right of hand. That is actually why we do everything in docbook from the beginning
<glick> cancelled a date for nothing
<glick> grrr
<LaserJock> bummer
<glick> ive only used docbook once
<crimsun> what? You have a hot date with #ubuntu-doc, that's sufficient.
<LaserJock> lol
<glick> hehe gawd 
<Madpilot> glick: docbook is messy, but you can pick it up from the stuff that's already been written
<glick> why docbook? why not xml ?
<glick> isnt xml more standard?
<LaserJock> it is xml
<Madpilot> it's DocBook XML
<glick> does OO.o have a docbook mode or something, any good docbook editors?
<LaserJock> emacs/vim/gedit/bluefish seem to be common
<LaserJock> but OO.o can save as xml but it tends to be kinda messy. 
<Madpilot> I use Bluefish, but gedit does OK too
<LaserJock> I do most of my editing from a terminal so I usually use emacs or vim
<LaserJock> pretty much anything with syntax highlighting of XMl works for me ;-)
<LaserJock> the SUSE documentation is very nice
<crimsun> always has been
<LaserJock> unfortunately, Ubuntu didn't inherit such nice looking docs ;-)
<glick> heh tole ya
<LaserJock> I find the Debian docs to be pretty dry
<Madpilot> hmm... this is uncool, though - if you start on the front page of the SuSE stuff and follow all the "New Users click here" links, then the "What software do I get with SuSE" link, you get this not-very-newbie-friendly page:http://en.opensuse.org/Product_Highlights  
<Madpilot> ... the basic install of SuSE require FIVE CDs? That's nuts - I hadn't realized how spoiled we are by Ubuntu...
<LaserJock> Madpilot: oh yeah, that is one of the reasons (of many) that I moved to Ubuntu. All the distros were moving to DVDs etc.
<glick> well not everyone has highspeed connections
<LaserJock> yeah, although now I just download the iso's at the university and use vmware-player
<kbrooks> Madpilot, 
<kbrooks>  only CD 1 needed for a minimal text installation (English)
<kbrooks> nuts. totally.
<kbrooks> LaserJock, what are these reasons?
<Madpilot> does "text installation" mean no-GUI, command line only?
<LaserJock> kbrooks: which reasons? for moving to Ubuntu?
<kbrooks> Madpilot, ambiguity there, i agree
<kbrooks> LaserJock, Yeah.
<LaserJock> Madpilot: probably curses or something, like when it doesn't play well with your graphics card
<Madpilot> what on earth do they install that takes up that much space?
<kbrooks> Madpilot, Too much.
<LaserJock> kbrooks: well, I really started using Linux with Gentoo but the compile time was eating into my productive time so I searched for a binary distro that was equivalent to Gentoo
<LaserJock> Madpilot: it would be like if we sent Universe too
<kbrooks> LaserJock, to where?
<kbrooks> LaserJock, cd? yeah,  too huge
<LaserJock> kbrooks: I went to Fedora (not very long) and then SuSe, and then Ubuntu
<kbrooks> LaserJock, dvd? not bad, but still huge
<kbrooks> LaserJock, no: "if we sent universe"
<LaserJock> yeah, basically if you get the SuSE dvd it has everything that SuSE has to offer
<kbrooks> LaserJock, what iss your opinion on fedora? 
<Madpilot> kbrooks: sent the Universe repos out as ISOs - to get as many CDs worth of stuff as SuSE
<LaserJock> kbrooks: it was always much slower for me than other distros, but I appreciate all the work they did for the linux community
<kbrooks> Madpilot, we shouldnt do that. the repos would be ... out of date way too fast
<kbrooks> Madpilot, like when you supply alpha software on a CD
<Madpilot> kbrooks: yeah, I know - but I was wondering what SuSE ships that requires so many CDs - see a few lines up...
<kbrooks> you don't want to DO THAT
<LaserJock> kbrooks: what I'm saying is that if we sent out all the repos on ISO it would be the size of SUSE (well much bigger actually)
<LaserJock> but we don't do that because Ubuntu/Canonical doesn't support Universe offically
<kbrooks> why should it?/
<LaserJock> well that is basically what the other distros are doing, SUSE for instance
<LaserJock> I'm not saying it should
<Madpilot> kbrooks: manpower, basically
<kbrooks> Madpilot, and time. not enough of that. clock is ticking
<kbrooks> see debian for a example of what not to do
<LaserJock> but the nice thing about SUSE is that if you do get the DVD you don't need an internet connection to have all the software at your disposal. It's a tradeoff and I think that Ubuntu has done a good job in that department
<LaserJock> kbrooks: well debian is great for certain things
<kbrooks> LaserJock, but bad for others
<LaserJock> sure, but then so is Ubuntu, but I think Ubuntu has had the best balance of the main distros I've tried
<kbrooks> whats that balance?
<LaserJock> between having all the software on cd and none of the software on cd
<LaserJock> Ubuntu comes with a core that is well supported on 1 cd
<kbrooks> LaserJock, btw
<LaserJock> and then if the use wants to go beyond that it is very simple for them to do that
<kbrooks> LaserJock,have you seen any of the curses screens ...
<kbrooks> that appear after your first reboot
<LaserJock> kbrooks: on what?
<kbrooks> into ubuntu
<LaserJock> I suppose
<kbrooks> they sound user friendly, but not enough oomph into that
<kbrooks> no cryptic package names in there please!
<kbrooks> the user cares about them after install, but not right now
<LaserJock> well, I think Dapper might get a revamped installer, but really the Debian installer is nice. Not as slick as SuSE or Fedora but it gets the job done.
<kbrooks> X is a memory hog.
<LaserJock> but the user does care that progress is being made
<LaserJock> and one of the easiest ways to show progress is by showing what packages are being installed
<kbrooks> well, i suppose you're right. at least there is no ...
<LaserJock> and if the installer crashes or something bad like that then they have an easy indicator of where it went bad
<kbrooks> hmm, obscuring 
<LaserJock> but I agree that we could use a flashy installer, I think it would be nice to have both with an option at the boot
<LaserJock> most of the time I would still use the non-graphical one but to show friends it would be nice to have something fancy
<LaserJock> but really people don't (shouldn't) spend much time installing and more time using so ...
<crimsun> I'm opposed to shiny things
<crimsun> a text-based installer Just Makes Sense. Granted, I'm probably in the minority.
<Madpilot> People don't spend all that much time installing - it should be easy but it doesn't have to be fancy, IMO...
<LaserJock> well, I think it is good to have both, if possible
<kbrooks> X is a memory hog though
<LaserJock> kbrooks: why do you keep saying that?
<kbrooks> to me, GUI = X
<Madpilot> kbrooks: curses = a GUI of sorts, w/o X
<kbrooks> thats TUI
<kbrooks> what "flashy installer" are you talking about
<crimsun> LaserJock: shall I push doc diffs to you or to the ml?
<LaserJock> crimsun: for the packaging guide you can email me directly mantha AT ubuntu.com
<crimsun> gotcha.
<LaserJock> for other stuff it is best to mail the list
<LaserJock> but I'm the only one with svn access that works on the packaging guide
* mpt thinks a smell-based installer Just Makes Sense
<crimsun> is that a11y-friendly? ;)
<LaserJock> kbrooks: well, that is why I think it would be nice to have a choice at the beginning, GUI or non-GUI. I would probably use the GUI most of the time but sometimes it is nice to have a non-GUI installer (weird hardware or something like that)
<LaserJock> mpt: smell based wouldn't work so well for me. I'm a chemist so my nose is shot ;-)
<LaserJock> crimsun: do you have any diffs presently?
<crimsun> LaserJock: no, but you'll have some in the morning
<crimsun> having to do diffing on remote boxes due to lack of HD space slows things down
<LaserJock> well, I do almost all my stuff from remote boxes now, my Ubuntu box got turned into an Intel iMac this week
<LaserJock> thanks for looking at the packaging guide, btw. you know a whole lot more about the subject than I do
<LaserJock> crimsun: did you already do editing? if so, what sections? or did you do everything :-)
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<robotgeek> LaserJock: could you commit the patch set i mailed in yesterday?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I would but I think it might be better for jjesse to do it. I'm not sure why your other patches weren't applied. Maybe he has a plan.
<robotgeek> LaserJock: hmm, i dunno. he hasn't mentioned anything to me yet. but i am referring to the new set I sent in yesterday
<robotgeek> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-February/005134.html
<robotgeek> which doesn't touch anything outside the kubuntu desktop guide
<robotgeek> i'm applying for membership
<robotgeek> so that i can commit stuff. it's getting very tedious trying to coordinate with 4 ppl, with me acting as the intermediatary svn
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I don't feel comfortable comitting your patches right now. They are quite large and mdke suggested I leave the Kubuntu patches to jjesse. Sorry
<robotgeek> LaserJock: sure, no problem
<robotgeek> i'll try to catch hold of him, heh
<robotgeek> LaserJock: they are large because they involve patches from 4 people, and i put them together
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I totally understand, I was doing a similar thing for the pacakging guide before I got svn access
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hello LaserJock 
<Snake__> LaserJock...hmm thats a sweet name
<Snake__> lol
<LaserJock> really? that's what the laser companies call us
<LaserJock> I even have a cool LaserJock sticker at work ;-)
<Snake__> lol
<Snake__> LaserJock: whats your job?
<LaserJock> I'm a PhD student in Physical Chemistry. I shoot lasers at things ;-)
<Snake__> LaserJock: like...ones that hurt you or what?
<Snake__> lol
<robotgeek> haha, /me would like a robotgeek sticker
<Madpilot> LaserJock: so can you arrange sharks with frickin' lasers on their heads? :P
<Snake__> (do they have those?)
<LaserJock> yeah, burn holes through things
<robotgeek> Madpilot: +1
<LaserJock> Madpilot: I could but I'd have to talk to the Biology department about getting the sharks ;-)
<Snake__> lol
<Snake__> Experiment ;)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: isn't that what a Phd is all about? fun! 
<LaserJock> the problem is that the laser probably wouldn't go very far in the water
<robotgeek> then maybe you can hold the world at ransom for gazillion dollars!
<Madpilot> anyone know if ToddLambert has ever appeared on IRC? He's going thru the wiki like mad, doing nice work too...
<robotgeek> Madpilot: yeah, i'm subscribed to that page too:)
<Snake__> I never seen/herd of him
<robotgeek> i've seen him on the forums, but never on irc
<LaserJock> robotgeek: no it's about doing the same thing every day until you get enough data to fool people into thinking I know what I'm doing
<Snake__> haha
<Snake__> LaserJock: where can I get one of those lasers?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i'll jot that down in my "advise from Phd dudes" section
<LaserJock> ebay
<Snake__> LaserJock: are you joking
<LaserJock> no
<Snake__> what would I search
<LaserJock> you can buy quite a bit of stuff on ebay
<LaserJock> lasers?
<Snake__> Meh all I get is the toy ones :(
<Snake__> I one that burns stuff
<Snake__> lol
<Snake__> i want*
<LaserJock> but the kind I use are about $250,000 USD
<Snake__> thats what im lookin for
<Snake__> :)
* robotgeek should make a wiki page about airport extreme in dapper
<LaserJock> Snake__: what you really want is an CO2 laser, they cut metal with those
<LaserJock> I usually don't work in the infra red so I don't burn much. I usually us UV so you could get some serious tans (aka skin cancer) :-)
<Snake__> hehe
<Snake__> Hmmm :( I cant find any devent ones
<Snake__> actually
<LaserJock> but you can sure blow the retina off the back of your eye with the kind I use
<Snake__> I dont even really know what im lookin for
<LaserJock> well, the most dangerous part of a laser is actually the power supply
<LaserJock> we have 60,000V capacitors in the power supply. discharge one of those and your toast
<Snake__> ha nice
<Snake__> LaserJock: get me the model of one that can burn through a door will ya? tommorow or something
<theCore> gosh, 60000V capacitors !
<LaserJock> but most of the time it is very mundane work
<theCore> I remember playing with 2V one, and I could solder metals parts with their sparks
<LaserJock> Snake__: something like http://www.accesslaserco.com/Spec%20Lasy20P.pdf would probably work ;-) but they are very expensive
<Snake__> ill check it out :)
<LaserJock> I think the kind that would cut through metal probably start at $100,000 USD
<LaserJock> but you can actually do quite a bit with lasers that are in laser pointers, I can run a lot of my experiments using them
<theCore> LaserJock, I saw $3,000 USD lasers cutting metal
<Snake__> LaserJock: like what
<LaserJock> theCore: really? I suppose. I'm used to cutting stations that include much more than just the lasers
<theCore> Snake__, cool line, and curve art!
<Snake__> theCore: with laser pointers??
<theCore> Snake__, yes , with a couple of rotating mirrors
<Snake__> I see....
<LaserJock> Snake__: my project involves looking at very very tiny motor molecules on a piece of glass. I don't need a lot of power
<Snake__> Oh :(
<Snake__> I want something that will go through a door :-D
<theCore> Snake__, you are evil ;)
<LaserJock> but you really need to be careful. I wouldn't get anything that could go through a door. You could case some serious damage
<LaserJock> laser pointers are scary enough
<theCore> like slicing a man in half  :P
<Snake__> Hehe
<LaserJock> no, but watching your eye explode doesn't sound very nice to me :(
<LaserJock> this year there was a prof that did that
<Snake__> owch
<Snake__> I still want one
<Snake__> lol
<theCore> oO
<theCore> ads ?
<LaserJock> the problem with a laser is they often different places than you think. They can bounce off of all kinds of thing. If you turn off the lights in my lab you can literally seem laser beams all over the place
* robotgeek saw a laser in his lab, crazy stuff
<theCore> so, glasses are important there 
<LaserJock> yes, except then you can't see where the beams are
* robotgeek things that's the point of the glasses
<LaserJock> so most of the time it is better for us to block most of the beams and be able to see the rest
<robotgeek> thinks*
<LaserJock> yes, but if your trying to work on something that is invisible ...
<Snake__> so do I need all that if I juts want to go out back and shoot some holes in a door?
<Snake__> :D
<LaserJock> Snake__: basically, don't do that. It would be quite expensive and very dangerous
<LaserJock> if you are really interested, find a university with a laser lab and see if you can visit
<Snake__> LaserJock: Yea im aware of that, but I figure I could get most of my money back if I sold the laser to a university or something
<Snake__> Hmmm
<Snake__> Thats a good idea
<Snake__> But I wanna have fun with it, not be bound by all kinds of stuff
<robotgeek> Snake__: yoou need to get  a Phd then
<LaserJock> but most of the bounds are really there for a reason
<Snake__> (Yes im the kind of person that "has fun" with guns
<LaserJock> anyway, lasers are really quite a bit more boring than they are made out to be in the movies
<LaserJock> they are great tools, but the are really not that much "fun"
* Snake__ thinks it would be fun to take out out back.....hehe
<theCore> the fun with lasers isn't cutting doors, (that's fun for 2 min) I think, it's finding new uses for them
<LaserJock> Snake__: but honestly it would just make a hole, it doesn't blow up or anything
<Snake__> LaserJock: But then I can like...draw and stuff with it right?
<LaserJock> maybe but it probably is more fun with a .22 
<Snake__> LaserJock: like....I can draw with the laser and stuff right?
<Snake__> lol
<Snake__> draw in the door
* robotgeek almost worked on that for his thesis
<LaserJock> anyway, I'm not going to talk about it anymore as it is waaay off topic and just noise here
<LaserJock> robotgeek: working on drawing on doors with a lase? ;-)
<theCore> LaserJock, I saw you commited my diff :)
<LaserJock> theCore: yes
<robotgeek> LaserJock: no, motion control to laser cut stuff
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ah, cool. medical?
* Snake__ would like to do designs into metal with a laser
* Snake__ nods approvingly
<theCore> I will rewrite some parts of the `make' explainations, I'm happy with it
<robotgeek> LaserJock: no, some weird not to be applied soon mems stuff
<theCore> I'm not *
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ah, mems. I went to a ASME mems conference here in Reno last year. really cool stuff
<robotgeek> LaserJock: yes,the possibilities of what you can do with that stuff is fascinating
<LaserJock> there is a group here that is working on cantilever systems that are really awesome. I saw one of their chips with 10.000 cantilever sensors all electronically addressed
<robotgeek> most of my research group has moved on from robotics to mems
<robotgeek> we also have a strong materials science program, (whose research was posted on slashdot), which makes it very cool
<LaserJock> yeah, I kinda see mems as the robotics of the future to some extent
<Madpilot> what're mems? (for those of us who don't play with lasers all day...)
<robotgeek> more robotics research is done in cse than in mech, i realised a bit too late. and i like the cse part
<robotgeek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MEMS
<LaserJock> well, I like working in the nano world so those mems are huge to me :-)
<robotgeek> heh, trie
<robotgeek> true, another research group here is working on some skin type stuff
<LaserJock> I like workin on the atomic/molecular level. I guess that is why I'm a chemist
<robotgeek> i'm still learning a lot of stuff, about a lot of things. 
<robotgeek> i would love to stay in school forever, but i cant :(
<LaserJock> me too, except I'm starting to get tired of it (8 years straight, not a summer off)
<robotgeek> wow
<LaserJock> I think it will be good to get out and start making some real money and doing my own work
<Madpilot> LaserJock: phd?
<robotgeek> i am definetly taking some time off towards that end
<Snake__> phd and your not making real money??
<LaserJock> not if I teach, I'll be doing good if I make 40k a year after I'm done with my PhD
<LaserJock> Madpilot: yeah, about a year from now I should be done
<robotgeek> LaserJock: only 40K?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: yeah, I would like to teach at a smallish university
<LaserJock> eventually I could do ok, but the going rate is ~ 40k for fresh PhDs I think
<robotgeek> hmm, i misunderstood. i tht for in non-acadameia
<LaserJock> for industry I could start at 90K
<LaserJock> and at a government lab I could do ~ 70k
<robotgeek> make some money, then go back to teaching
<LaserJock> but I like the academic world and the research freedom
<robotgeek> that's my plan, atleast. 
<Snake__> Ooo children of bodom
<LaserJock> I've heard that it is often pretty hard to take the pay cut after being in industry, but my undergrad chemistry prof did that
<robotgeek> yeah, my cousin's wife did that too, but she's happy that she did
<LaserJock> but if my wife gets a job then I'm sure we will do ok ;-)
<robotgeek> :)
<theCore> ah, the famous academic syndrom, the more you study, the more it become though to quit the school
<theCore> being served, and to serve, is a quite different thing ... 
<LaserJock> theCore: actually, there seems to be somewhat of a critical mass for me. At some point you figure out that you can't learn everything and you need to be productive. oh, yeah and being broke also helps with the syndrome ;-)
<theCore> and with the specialization, the situation won't improve ...
<theCore> yep
<robotgeek> being broke definetly helps!
<theCore> the fear of lost, is definitely stronger than the hope of gain ...
<LaserJock> I am amazed with how unemployable you become the farther you go
<LaserJock> the more specialized you get the fewer potential employers you have
<theCore> employers don't have enough money for paying a multi-Phd graduate
<crimsun> that's why you have to get your employer to pay for a multiple Ph.D.s :)
<crimsun> s/for a/for/
<robotgeek> heh, that's a good solution
<cfk> file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index.html  says "or chat with the community on Freenode IRC Channel: #ubuntu" - i think that should be a link that fires up the default chat cilent - where do I post sugestions like this?
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if that would work?
<crimsun> xchat* is installed by default, so it should
<crimsun> irc://chat.freenode.net/ubuntu
<robotgeek> crimsun: does firefox come out of the box to handle irc protocol?
<crimsun> it should be handled by xchat {or gaim}
<LaserJock> I don't remember firefox ever doing that
<Madpilot> there's an IRC plugin for FF, isn't there?
<crimsun> mozilla's chatzilla would handle it, but firefox doesn't
<LaserJock> I think that would be the problem then
<cfk> i just put irc://chat.freenode.net/ubuntu in FF's address textbox - it 1/2 worked - xchat ran but didn't connect
<LaserJock> well, you have to set up xchat (nick, etc.)  so it wouldn't be all that automatic
<cfk> the first time you run xchat it asks for nick - thats the only other thing it needs
<cfk> and that defaults to OS username and full name, so its just a click away 
<LaserJock> yeah, it would be good to have
<theCore> ok, I'm off
<theCore> cya later
<CarlFK> so should I post this irc:// thing to somewhere like launchpad?
<LaserJock> you could send an email the the ubuntu-doc mailing list
<CarlFK> im guessing I would need to subscribe ?
<LaserJock> hmm, I guess. I could send an email if you would rather not.
<CarlFK> I just subscribed
<LaserJock> cool
<CarlFK> but thanks
<LaserJock> np
<CarlFK> LaserJock: can you post afterall?
<CarlFK> i havn't gotten the "reply to subscibe" thing, and I am about to fall allseep 
<LaserJock> CarlFK: fine, I'll just sent something quick
<CarlFK> thanks
<LaserJock> CarlFK: sent, good night
<rob> woah, the licence page wigged out on me
<rob> something funky is going on with bookinfo.xml, is anyone else getting a problem when building?
<rob> the desktop guide btw
<robotgeek> rob: ubuntu or kubuntu?
<rob> ubuntu
<robotgeek> hmm, i havent tried it yet, sorry
<rob> for some reason its appending all the text in bookinfo.xml to the filename when running the mk script
<robotgeek> hmm, weird
<rob> yeah, not wrong
<rob> ah, looks like it might be a problem with how an xref is set
<mdke> whoosh, scrollback
<mdke> rob, works fine here
<mdke> what's the problem?
<Madpilot> small patch for Ubuntu Desktop Guide sent to the list...
<mdke> k
<mdke> oh nice one
<Madpilot> the Codecs section should look more like the rest of the guide now...
<mdke> applied
<Madpilot> thanks
<mdke> wtf is seamonkey?
<Madpilot> it's yet-another-Firefox-project, isn't it?
<mdke> oh
<mdke> well it's not in Ubuntu as default browser >_<
<Madpilot> does someone think it should be?
<mdke> not as far as I know
<mdke> CarlFK, so does firefox open these irc:// links correctly in default dapper?
<Madpilot> ah, I just saw jerome's email about seamonkey & IRC - now I know wtf you're talking about :P
<Madpilot> chaining terminal commands is really quite cool - "cd ~ && cd ubuntu-doc && svn up" all on one line from any directory...
* mdke nods
<mdke> you dont' even need the ~
<Madpilot> not really - just habit I got into when I first started w/ Linux
<Madpilot> next I need to make that into a script & alias it to something like "usvn" in .bashrc...
<Madpilot> there we go: in /.bashrc: alias usvn='cd && cd ubuntu-doc && svn up'
<mdke> good plan
<Kamping_Kaiser> ~/.bashrc ;)
<Madpilot> I'm lazy, four keys + enter appeals to me
<Kamping_Kaiser> <grin>
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, I read your comment on the mailing list, I'm not sure about whether extended tables of contents are a good idea or not
<mdke> the idea is for the sub-sections to be obvious enough that you know what's in them already
<mdke> and some of those are so long, deeper tables of contents would look a bit ugly, I think
<mdke> for example, see this: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch03.html
<mdke> what do you think?
<Madpilot> yikes...
<mdke> funnily enough, I was planning to remove that stuff
<mdke> but now I'm confused :)
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: just looking
<mdke> i _think_ the right approach is to ensure that the sub-sections are clearly enough named that its obvious what is in there, without deeper TOCs
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: i don't mind it (maybe I'm strange), but what i was thinking is the sub part is on the page when you open it
<Kamping_Kaiser> so you go to `Partitions and Booting`, then on that page is all the options
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> the qandaset used to do that automatically
<mdke> i'll look into it
<Madpilot> mdke: I thought we were yanking all the quandasets out?
<Kamping_Kaiser> quandaset?
<mdke> Madpilot, yes we are. I mean, in the previous guide, it did that
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: part of the tag swamp XML is blessed with :P
<mdke> where you have a qandaset, it makes a toc at the top
<jsgotangco> wasssup
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: ok.
<mdke> Madpilot, so what are we going to do with the remaining miscellaneous tips? can you think of a way of including them in the other chapters?
<jsgotangco> dinner brb
<Madpilot> mdke: how about just a "Misc." section at the end of Common Tasks?
<Madpilot> it doesn't really solve the problem, but at least it makes it stick out less...
<mdke> yes, although some of the tips might fit better in config-system
* mdke looks at them
<mdke> oh, not really
<Kamping_Kaiser> i just had a browse through the help and i noted "wireless help: write about wireless here", should i point that out here (to be written/hidden)? i don't have any wireless gear on my properly , so i cant help there
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, i removed that recently. We can probably include some extra wireless information in the "Connecting to the internet" section though
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: ok. i just svnd up, so i will have a look in there for interesting/not so interesting stuff :)
<Madpilot> Kamping_Kaiser: are you looking at Breezy's help, or the svn version?
<Kamping_Kaiser> Madpilot: it was dapper help, but i just updated svn
<mdke> dapper's help
<mdke> we haven't uploaded for a while
<Madpilot> in the Config/Internet section, we should have a link to the Hardware/Modems-Winmodems section
<Madpilot> sorry, Common Tasks/Internet
<mdke> good idea
<Madpilot> I'm still not up to speed on links in Docbook, so I'll let someone else make that change
<mdke> ok i'll do it
<Madpilot> the "Switch to Console mode" Misc. tip could be rolled into Getting Started/Linux Basics, mentioned as an alternative to starting gnome-terminal
<mdke> done it, but yelp crashes continuously, so I can't test properly
<Madpilot> Yelp in Dapper having issues?
<mdke> yes
<mdke> bbl
<Madpilot> mdke: your Modems link in Common/Internet links to the top of Hardware, it doesn't (on Yelp in Breezy) go right to the Hardware/Modems section
<Kamping_Kaiser> if i want to have a play with docbook in my svn repo do i have to create a new branch for my stuff? or can i do it in the main tree? what I'm wondering about is files getting deleted becasuse they are not part of the repo.
<mdke> Madpilot, yes, not a lot can be done about that
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser, you can make patches and send them to the list. If you want to play around, svn won't remove any of your local changes
<mdke> Madpilot, the alternative is to do a link like "read the modem section in the Hardware section" and link on "Hardware". Yelp doesn't handle the links to smaller sections :/
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke: thanks. I'll be playing for the forseable future, as dockbook looks... interetsing
<Madpilot> mdke: ah, so you can't do internal links like HTML - too bad
<mdke> Madpilot, yeah sucks. at least afaik it can't be done. We can investigate further tho
<Madpilot> I need to actually learn DocBook, rather than just copying existing code & experimenting :P
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe.
<mdke> Madpilot, me too
<Madpilot> anyway, I need sleep. How did it get to be 0300, anyway?
<Madpilot> Later, all
<mdke> night
<Kamping_Kaiser> later mate
<Kamping_Kaiser> hehe
<Kamping_Kaiser> how can i forceably update a file i changed? and svn says the Kubuntu/serverguide isnt part of the repo - is that correct? or should it just learn to love it?
<mdke> what do you mean by forcibly update?
<mdke> remove your changes?
<Kamping_Kaiser> yeh. basicly
<mdke> to revert to the server's version of a file, do "svn revert filename"
<mdke> that will cancel your changes
<Kamping_Kaiser> ok. thanks.
<CarlFK> (3:40:52 AM) mdke: CarlFK, so does firefox open these irc:// links correctly in default dapper?
<CarlFK> no
<mdke> CarlFK, then there's not much point adding the link :/
<CarlFK> FF launches xchat, so I'm guessing there is a bug in FF that needs to be fixed too
<CarlFK> FF launches xchat, but doesn't connect to any servers
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> CarlFK, ok we can add it, and hope that the bug gets fixed
<CarlFK> then i suppose I better file a bug report aganst FF ;)
<mdke> yeah please do, I'll add the link now
<CarlFK> done: https://launchpad.net/products/firefox/+bug/31226
<mdke> thanks
<mdke> I've added the link
<CarlFK> thank you 
<CarlFK> hope it gets working - hate not having a quick way to get to #ubuntu ;)
<CarlFK> not to mention that it would be nice for beginners 
* robotgeek steals idea for Kubuntu
<mdke> robotgeek, btw the ubuntu desktopguide has been changed drastically since you forked it over, just a heads up in case you want to revise the kubuntu guide accordingly
<robotgeek> mdke: i saw that, will take a look
<robotgeek> it's much easier to delete stuff than add stuff :)
<mdke> the whole format has changed
<mdke> instead of qandasets, it is in regular sect form, and lots of restructuring has occurred
<robotgeek> ah, okay. i think i'll spend a whole day just doing that
<CarlFK> did "d-i  preseed/early_command" change from breezy to dapper?  
<CarlFK> whoops, this isn't #u
<LaserJock> CarlFK: did you see the -doc emails about the irc link?
<CarlFK> no  - still no subscription conf message
<CarlFK> thats what I get for using a mail server on mandrake ; )
<LaserJock> CarlFK: well, a link was added
<CarlFK> "your subscription request may have to be first confirmed by... , or approved by the list moderator.
<CarlFK> maybe that is the hold up
<CarlFK> thanks for posting for me
<mdke> weird
<mdke> you should be able to confirm it yourself
<CarlFK> "confirmed by you via email, or approved" - could be either - most I have seen are by e-mail 
<CarlFK> tried again using my gmail account, already got "Mailing list subscription confirmation notice for mailing list ubuntu-doc"
<CarlFK> curd... lauchpad didn't respect my CRs https://launchpad.net/products/partconf/+bug/31258
<CarlFK> is there an option to make <pre> text stay pre?
<mdke> in launchpad?
<CarlFK> yes
<CarlFK> im not seeing any options, so this is an easy one ;)
<mdke> best ask in #launchpad
<CarlFK> hmm, my mail server's top:  0.0% id, 94.7% wa,  load average: 3.69, 2.78, 2.04
<mdke> ouch
* mdke hassles mpt
<mdke> around?
<mpt> hi mdke, yes, I'll work on it this morning
<mdke> mpt, awesome, although I was gonna hassle about something else
<mdke> mpt, the desktop guide is starting to resemble something like a usable guide IMO, i'd love it if you'd check it out and give a bit of quick feedback. Maybe wait until a new upload is done early this week, and have a look if you have a spare few moments
<mpt> mdke, ok, will it be on doc.ubuntu.com?
<mdke> mpt, yes, and in dapper
<mdke> thanks dude
<mdke> ->bed
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-18
<sdquinn> Hi all.
<LaserJock> hi
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi
<sdquinn> hi.
<sdquinn> I used to work with the docteam a lot before Breezy, then I kind of..disappeared.
<Madpilot> well, welcome back, then :P
<sdquinn> Thank you. I also went through being grounded for a while, and an email hack, so..it's been interesting.
<sdquinn> hey jerome.
<sdquinn> it's been a while since i've seen you in these parts.
<Madpilot> anyone around to help with a DocBook problem? Yelp is complaining, and I can't figure out why...
<jsgotangco> sdquinn, mmmm? i'm always here, you're the one i haven't seen for quite a while :)
<sdquinn> yeah. i know. i'm back.
<Madpilot> I'm trying to clean up some of common-tasks.xml - just a sec while I pastebin things
<sdquinn> after a gentoo run and being grounded.
<sdquinn> hm, i may know the problem Madpilot 
<Madpilot> here we go: http://pastebin.com/551979
<sdquinn> I'll be right back, after dinner.
* jsgotangco work
<jsgotangco> :)
<Madpilot> common-tasks.xml diff sent to the list - last of the qandaset formatting is dead & gone
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hello LaserJock 
<theCore> I'm trying to polish a little bit the `make' section
<LaserJock> great
<theCore> I missed something quite important to explain, how the `make' dependencies works
<theCore> I'm thinking adding an image showing the dep tree
<theCore> question: what is our target audience ?
<theCore> the average linux guy or the `I know everything about Linux except how to make Debian package` type of guy ? 
<LaserJock> I think a little in between
<LaserJock> I think we can assume that they pretty much know how to do a ./configure && make && make install
<theCore> so, would it be better to strip the ``Basic Skills'' section and fill it with web references to read ?
<LaserJock> theCore: I think that quick explinations with web references would be good. We really can't explain everything.
<LaserJock> theCore: but since the debian/rules file is basically a Makefile it is nice to have a little something about them
<LaserJock> theCore: I gotta get to bed. just send patches when you're done and we can always take stuff out later if we want. but try to include some web references
<theCore> ok
<theCore> good night
<LaserJock> cya
<spider-man> Does anyone know what package(s) contains C++ manpages (i.e. cout, cstring, etc)?
<theCore> spider-man, that isn't really the place to ask that, but maybe I can help
<theCore> search apt-cache the packages ending with -doc , you may find what you are looking for
<spider-man> theCore: I have searched (apt-cache and google), and I've installed several packages so far nothing has worked. Where is the right place to ask?
<theCore> spider-man, #ubuntu
<theCore> are serching for a C++ guide ?
<theCore> searching*
<jsgotangco> hmmm support/faq page is scary
<jsgotangco> 25 page down keys
<Madpilot> which page?
<jsgotangco> its like the FAQ to end all FAQs
<jsgotangco> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/faq
<Madpilot> lots of Warty or even pre-Warty info in there too
<jsgotangco> no one reads this for sure
<Madpilot> <cynic>Nobody actually reads documentation, FAQs or the /topics of IRC channels.</cynic>
<jsgotangco> lol
<bur[n] er> i don't see the faq as part of the svn package?
<Madpilot> bur[n] er: none of the regular website stuff is, AFAIK
<CarlFK> woa... just now got my mail list subscription conf... 
<Madpilot> CarlFK: when did you subscribe?
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, this faq is a nice topic to start ranting again heh
<rob> hello
<CarlFK> Sun, 12 Feb 2006 01:04:11 -0600 (CST)
<rob> desktop guide is no workies for me
<Madpilot> rob: current SVN?
<jsgotangco> rob, fix it ;)
<rob> then I am trying to mess with it on a non-ubuntu box, so it could be just the xml packages suck
<rob> yeah
<jsgotangco> the validation should still work though its just nwalsh and other stuff
<Madpilot> it all works here in Breezy's Yelp
<rob> this distro doesn't have the nwalsh stuff, I had to symlink it
<spider-man> !list
<rob> ?
<jsgotangco> what are you using?
<spider-man> sorry
<Madpilot> spider-man: no bot on this channel
<rob> Archlinux
<spider-man> wrong window
<rob> heh yep
<rob> ubuntu-doc: not a porn bot channel
<spider-man> heheh
<CarlFK> Madpilot: thats when my mail server frist got it, then it virus scanned it Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:48:20 -0600 (CST) 
<CarlFK> about 24 hours later
<rob> everyones like "archlinux hey.. pfft whatever!"
<rob> dapper is going back on my laptop, I sware!
<mdke> morning
<Madpilot> hi
* jsgotangco lol at rob reply on -devel
<rob> :)
<jsgotangco> that's true though, its is more annoying
<jsgotangco> the worse is that it is automated
<Madpilot> is Bluefish installed by default?
<jsgotangco> nope
<Madpilot> OK - wanted to add it to Desktop Guide, as an alternative to NVU (which I personally can't stand...) :P
<jsgotangco> its in universe though, so you should indicate that universe should be turned on
<jsgotangco> but GAI can turn it on for you
<Madpilot> bluefish seems to be in main?
<Madpilot> ah, no it's not, my bad...
<jsgotangco> nope
<jsgotangco> universe
<Madpilot> OK, edited, recreated the .diff - yet another common-tasks.xml.diff coming in a moment... 
<jsgotangco> cool
<Madpilot> diff dispatched - hope my commit rights arrive soon :P
<jsgotangco> ok gimme a minute
<jsgotangco> i serve at your pleasure
<Madpilot> heh
* jsgotangco kicks breezy for booting slowly
<mdke> Madpilot, good idea, bluefish is good
<Madpilot> mdke: actually, I like Screem slightly better, but Bluefish is far more stable and overall more capable
<mdke> for installing programs, i've just been doing "install the X package from the X repository (see <xref linkend="add-applications"/>)
<mdke> giving the Programming (universe) &gt; bluefish is a bit tricky IMO, because we've got gnome-app-install and synaptic to deal with
<mdke> what do you think?
<Madpilot> yeah, that might need tweaking all over the docs, actually
<mdke> i've basically just being doing that wherever I see it for now
<Madpilot> the "Foo (repo-name) > app-name" thing is  an odd hybrid between Synaptic's & gai's categories
<mdke> yeah, I don't like it myself
<mdke> jsgotangco, i'll apply the patch if you like
<mdke> Madpilot, how about adding yourself as a contact for the desktopguide?
<Madpilot> sure - where?
<mdke> DocumentationTeam/Projects
<mdke> jsgotangco, Madpilot, patch applied
<Madpilot> thanks
<jsgotangco> doh
<jsgotangco> you beat me :P
<jsgotangco> oh well the perks of a high time barrister :)
<Madpilot> until I get commit access, there'll be enough to go around, guys :P
<jsgotangco> have you guys noticed that Madpilot is now a certified docbook hacker
<Madpilot> nah, I'm still faking it
<jsgotangco> enrico, ping?
<enrico> hi
<jsgotangco> enrico, i've been reading through the DCG, nice stuff
<jsgotangco> is still work in progress?
<enrico> jsgotangco: yes, somehow
<enrico> I've been meditating on its scope a bit
<enrico> an idea is to make a shortish version and add it to the developers-reference
<jsgotangco> mmm
<jsgotangco> its nice by itself too
<enrico> jsgotangco: yes, I agree
<enrico> jsgotangco: I do think it's already quite useful
<enrico> another idea I had is to use it for NM as it is
<jsgotangco> or an intro to the debian community itself...
<enrico> jsgotangco: yes.  I have a talk about it planned for Debconf6, and that'll be my opportunity for devoting serious thinking to it
<enrico> (btw, having worked at the docteam 
<jsgotangco> i branched from it if you don't mind i'd like to follow on its progress
<enrico> (btw, more than one idea for the DCG come from having worked here last year)
<enrico> jsgotangco: sure!  Please feel free to send patches, change, reuse... :)
<Burgwork> mdke, I had a thought regarding the flash stuff. Why not have a quick thing about free software and then one about shipit?
<dsas> in launchpad, what is the difference between the "Ubuntu Documentation Project" team and the "Ubuntu Documentation Team" team?
<dsas> the 'project', seems to have all the members in it but owns no packages, and the 'team' only has the tech board as members but owns the packages.
<dsas> bad question: that is the difference, but I meant 'why is the difference'?
<Burgwork> dsas, likely they need to be merged
<dsas> should I talk to someone on #launchpad about merging them?
<dsas> or do I need to check with someone else whether or not they do require a merge?
<Burgwork> yes, chat with someone in #lp
<LaserJock> are you guys watching the -devel thread on "Restoring the Help icon"?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, of course
<Burgwork> having not actually opened yelp in a while, are they talking abut breezy or dapper performance
<LaserJock> so what about this gnome help is really slow stuff
<LaserJock> well, I assume dapper but it sounds more like breezy
<Burgwork> yes, that is why
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<Burgwork> LaserJock, replied
<mdke> dsas, the project is the project, and the team is the team
<mdke> don't request a merge
<dsas> ok, but I'm not sure I understand the distinction.
<Burgwork> mdke, you got me confused as well
<manicka> one outlines the project, the other outlines the people on the team
<Burgwork> sorry, don't see the need for the distinction
<manicka> I'm more confused by the distinction between the wiki team and the doc-team, one is a member of the other yet I'm a member of the wiki team but not the doc-team
<LaserJock> lol, try looking at all the MOTU teams ;-) and MOTU is not motu on LP exactly
<manicka> how does one become a member of the doc-team?
<Burgwork> manicka, the division is to allow for the eventual goal of access control via team
<Burgwork> so those people in the wiki team woudl have more access to the wiki
<Burgwork> and those in the doc team commit access to a repo
<Burgwork> obiviously people need to prove themselves at both
<manicka> ok
<Burgwork> the gold standard for letting people in to the doc team is a few good patches, plus agreement
<Burgwork> the standard for the wiki team is mostly if I see if you have been constructively active
<manicka> ok
<manicka> back to docbook then ;)
<Burgwork> indeed
* Burgwork hasn't had a commit in about 4 months
<mdke> argh
<theCore> LaserJock, did you worked on the PG ?
<Burgwork> mdke, I had a thought regarding the flash stuff. Why not have a quick thing about free software and then one about shipit?
<LaserJock> theCore: just a little, I am changed the appendix to be an appendix ;-)
<mdke> Burgwork, yeah I'm about to reply *g*
<mdke> Burgwork, dsas, i confused you, sorry. my bad
<LaserJock> theCore: but I'm still struggling with a lot of MOTU work and figuring out this mac thing
<mdke> those teams are indeed duplicates
<mdke> the -list one was created during the bug migration
<mdke> a bug is filed, somewhere
<mdke> sorry!
<mdke> Burgwork, about flash, sounds reasonable, but difficult to animate
<_dsas> ahh :) ok.
<Burgwork> mdke, doesn't necessarily have to be that animated
<theCore> LaserJock, ok then, I will continue alone ... 
<mdke> Burgwork, i'd say, go ahead and add it, then get mark to choose his favourite 10 or whatever
* mdke dumps a fat patch on the desktopguide
<LaserJock> theCore: what are you working on? more basic skills material?
<theCore> LaserJock, a little bit, but I want to get on the fun part quickly
<mdke> bbl
<mdke> these damn devel list people are a pain
<mdke> how dare they diss yelp
<Burgwork> mdke, indeed ;)
* mdke makes a mental note to keep stuff to -desktop as much as possible
<mdke> so why does the serverguide have a packaging section? don't we have a whole guide for that?
<Burgwork> mdke, done
* mdke looks
<mdke> the free thing should be first, if its used IMO
<Burgwork> sure
<Burgwork> http://ubuntustudio.com/ <-- cool
<dsas> I think there was something similar started on the forums, don't know how it's doing though. 
<dsas> For the programming section in the desktop guide should the kde/qt based tools be split out and put in the kubuntu guide?
<mdke> i don't think so. The more the merry
<mdke> as long as something is installable on ubuntu, it can go in
<dsas> okie dokie.
<dsas> Is this meant just as a list of IDEs and what not? Or should we explain how to install them? Most of them don't need explaining, but I netbeans isn't in the repos and doesn't come packaged as a deb
<LaserJock> seems like it would get much more difficult if you have to explain how to install apps that aren't installable through synaptic, etc.
<dsas> I think it may be worth leaving it as an exercise for the reader, after all, if they can program they should hopefully be capable of learning where to get it and how to install it.
<LaserJock> but then we have to support that, will we have to update those instructions for each release of netbeans?
<dsas> probably, I'm saying that it may best to leave it to the reader to decide how to get and install it.
<dsas> To document it gives extra workload as you said, and to remove it when version 5 is out soon and has been getting hype may be a mistake.
<LaserJock> oh, I see what your saying. I agree
<LaserJock> I think a link to the homepage or something is probably sufficent
* dsas gives mdke the already implemented feature hat
<mdke> dsas, hmm?
<dsas> <LaserJock> I think a link to the homepage or something is probably sufficent
<dsas> Talking about netbeans.
<mdke> ah right
<mdke> i can't take credit for that, it came out of one of the forum threads we posted :)
<dsas> Well, yes. Good copy and paste work then.
* mdke nods
<mdke> damn straight
<mdke> dsas, if you want to bulk up the programming section, that would be great though
<dsas> I have a couple of ideas for it, there's probably some more tools we should talk about, and maybe links to "Programming with GTK" type articles stuff. 
<mdke> that'd be great
<mdke> just wade in
<dsas> mdke: Do we really need implementation details like "eric3 is written in pyqt"? Shouldn't we focus on what the app is good for, not what was used to make it?
<LaserJock> dsas: what doc are you working on?
<dsas> i'll try and reword some of those descriptions I think.
<dsas> LaserJock: Looking at the desktop guides programming section.
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-19
<dsas> LaserJock: the Ubuntu desktop guide that is, though i'd guess most of the work would cross over
<LaserJock> dsas: ok, thanks. I haven't actually looked at much of the other documentation, I just tend to focus on what I'm working on :(
<dsas> LaserJock: I've mainly looked and not worked ;)
<LaserJock> actually, now that I look at it. I think it would be nice to have some sort of notation about which apps in that list can be installed from the Ubuntu repos.
<LaserJock> when I'm looking at software lists it is nice to have some idea as to the ease of installations (installed by default, installed through apt, build your own, etc.)
<dsas> I think that they are all installed via apt using main or universe with the exception of netbeans.
<dsas> interestingly there's two eric3s
<LaserJock> then we should at least have a note with netbeans that says that it isn't in the Ubuntu repos
<dsas> LaserJock: ok I'll make sure to do that.
<hyperactivecrond> Kyral: how doth the installguide come?
<Kyral> Considering Ubuntu Express isn't out yet?
<hyperactivecrond> lemme get this straight: gui install != ubuntu express, yes?
<Kyral> no Ubuntu Express is the installer, IIRC
<hyperactivecrond> any help here?
<hyperactivecrond> i thought express == the livecd that u run from and then install it if u want
<Kyral> There is already documentation on the NCurses installer
<Kyral> And being able to install from the LiveCD would make the Install CD not needed anymore ;D
<hyperactivecrond> *grim grimace*
<Kyral> I rest my case
<hyperactivecrond> kyral espresso == ubuntu express => install from livecd
<Kyral> ...
<robotgeek> hmm, jjesse isn't on here. 
<LaserJock> unfortunately you guys seem to have bad timezones
<robotgeek> where's jjesse located again?
<LaserJock> I don't know
<jsgotangco> USA
<Madpilot> just a heads up: I'm hacking most of the Desktop Guide up for the next hour or so - I'll send to the list when I'm done, and it would be nice if folks stayed away from committing until then - thanks...
<jsgotangco> have you guys seen this?
<jsgotangco> http://www.darlugo.com/?id=388&hp=1
<LaserJock> Madpilot: in other words "Back Off!" ;-)
<Madpilot> LaserJock: wasn't going to be so blunt, but I'm likely to touch every file in desktopguide in the next hour or so... :P
<robotgeek> extremely neat jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> tiles
<jsgotangco> what a neat concept
<LaserJock> some of the stuff was really cool
<LaserJock> some of it I didn't really understand the point
<jsgotangco> well
<jsgotangco> i dont think we'll be using them soon
<LaserJock> it would need to have a CLI and then I might think about it ;-)
<jsgotangco> hopefully your tile won't shatter easily
<LaserJock> no kidding, it would be fun to carry them around in my backpack though, put my laptop together when I get to class
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: diffs off to the list - four of them for Ub. Desktop Guide
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, done
<LaserJock> hmm, I wish the Packaging Guide had enough of a status to track :(
<Madpilot> anyone know what other status tags DocBooks knows aside from "writing" and "review"?
<Madpilot> jsgotangco: thanks, btw - wish my commit access would get arranged... :P
<jsgotangco> Madpilot, mdke hasn't made a request from elmo yet?
<Madpilot> he has, I think, but I haven't heard back
<LaserJock> it took me quite some time (2 weeks maybe)
<LaserJock> although it was over a month after it was supposed to
* bhuvan is looking http://goobuntu.com/
<bhuvan> Madpilot: in addition to "writing", "review" we can also have "help" status 
<Madpilot> bhuvan: which means "This section needs help"?
<bhuvan> yep
<bhuvan> "Help Wanted" check http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/status/sg-report.html
<Madpilot> bhuvan: did you see sabdfl's post to planet.u.c? He denies the Goobuntu rumours...
<bhuvan> Madpilot, ok
<Madpilot> bhuvan: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/20
<bhuvan> Madpilot, i have located it, thanks
<Madpilot> np
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: ping
<jsgotangco> hi
<robotgeek> can you commit the set of patches i mailed earlier?
<jsgotangco> i'll look for it
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> bookinfo.xml.patch - Added information about other contributors
<jsgotangco> common-tasks.xml.patch - Additions by Kenminardo, DerekBuranen, KorkyKathman
<jsgotangco> getting-help.xml.patch - :s/Ubuntu/Kubuntu wherever appropriate
<jsgotangco> getting-started.xml.patch - Cleaning up
<jsgotangco> tips-and-tricks.xml.patch - Gnome with kde,gdm with kdm
<jsgotangco> this one?
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, that one?
<robotgeek> yeah
<jsgotangco> ok doing it now sorry i didnt notice it
<robotgeek> no problem
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: i'm applying for membership next meeting, it would be nice if you could make it :)
<jsgotangco> yes of course
* jsgotangco checks time
<robotgeek> i don't think time has been set yet
<jsgotangco> ahh no time yet
<jsgotangco> hopefully its not those ungodly hours (20UTC to 22UTC)
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: what time does that correspond to in your time zone
<Madpilot> 1400Z is nearly the only time that works for me - even that's 0600 local :P
<jsgotangco> that's around 4 am to 6am
<jsgotangco> heh
<Madpilot> 2000Z = 4am for you? bleh
<robotgeek> i'm mostly nocturnal, so don't matter to me :)
<Madpilot> noon here - I'm usually at work or heading there
<robotgeek> i'll ping you all as soon as i hear of the time :)
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, done
<robotgeek> great! thanks jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> thanks too
<jsgotangco> ooppss should be venkat not vengkat
<jsgotangco> sorry
<robotgeek> np, i don't think ppl are going to mistake it for anything else!
<Madpilot> robotgeek: I'm sub'd to the CCAgenda wiki page, so I'll know when they finally post the next meeting time
<jsgotangco> Kenminardo, DerekBuranen, KorkyKathman
<jsgotangco> ?
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: those are the ppl i am working with
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, surely they are aware that we're releasing this on a dual license?
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: i don't think they will have issues with that
<robotgeek> i'll just ask to make sure
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, please clarfiy to make sure or better yet let's invite them here
<robotgeek> okay, CC-SA and GDFL?
<Madpilot> some/all of them have been on IRC & here before, jsgotangco
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> robotgeek, right
<jsgotangco> k i got back to work first
<robotgeek> kkathman: apparently i missed a clarification on licensing issues
<kkathman> ok
<kkathman> robotgeek: what is that?
<robotgeek> kkathman: just to make you aware, the guide is going to be released under 2 licenses. Gnu Free Documentation License, and CC by SA. 
<kkathman> ok
<robotgeek> however, i was hoping that jsgotangco or Madpilot could offer some insight on to why that is important. I don't mind it at all, lol
<kkathman> Nor I
<kkathman> International implications perhaps?
<robotgeek> kkathman: i guess none of the others would mind too
<kkathman> I wouldnt think so
<LaserJock> robotgeek: are you wondering about the docteam license?
<kkathman> My work here is purely voluntary, and I would hope the licensing would be done by those that would know :)
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/License
<robotgeek> LaserJock: yeah, the dual license thing. jsgotangco wanted me to make sure that all contributors were okay with it
<robotgeek> thanks jsgotangco 
<kkathman> Maybe we just need to know why we would NOT be ok with it?
<jsgotangco> most contributors are ok with a free license in a free project
<jsgotangco> heh
<kkathman> sure
<jsgotangco> cool
<jsgotangco> kkathman, we're cool really, just making sure you know about it
<kkathman> appreciate that jsgotangco :)  Im just fine with it
<jsgotangco> thanks
<kkathman> well Im off to bed then :)
<robotgeek> cool, i'll go away for a while now :)
<Madpilot> interesting - there is/was a CC:SA license: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/sa/1.0/
<Madpilot> the current licenses are 2.0 or 2.5 - this was one of their first-gen ones
<jsgotangco> we haven't been discussing much about changing the licenses
<jsgotangco> oh shit
<jsgotangco> i have to edit that meeting page
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:jsgotangco] :  Ubuntu Documentation Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Docteam members in LP: Please list your ideal meeting time at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingTimes | Next me
<jsgotangco> gahh
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:jsgotangco] :  Ubuntu Documentation Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next meeting: 17 Feb 2006 14UTC https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda |
<Madpilot> I just linked MeetingAgenda to that worldclock site, the one that the CCAgenda page uses
<jsgotangco> i used to have that, someone erased it
<Madpilot> useful site, that one
<jsgotangco> mdke_, hmm were you able to get around with that edubuntu script for doc.ubuntu.com? 
<mdke_> jsgotangco, gah, thanks for reminding me. I'll do it today definitely
<mdke_> sorry
<jsgotangco> cheers
* mdke_ hugs Madpilot 
<Madpilot> mdke_: hmm?
<Madpilot> Happy Valentine's Day to you too :P
<mdke_> oh bloody hell
<mdke> the hug was for the dg patch, but thanks for reminding me of valentines day too
<Madpilot> the status stuff? np
* mdke reads a bit of scrollback
<mdke> Madpilot, status tags available are at the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<mdke> Kyral, i think the installer is now working. It is called "espresso", and if you want to write some documentation for it, you can build on the guidalinex documentation already available
* mdke goes to work
<Madpilot> why is there such a huge blob of white space below "Projects" here? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Projects
<manicka> are there any vmware player dapper virtual machines available?
<jsgotangco> mdke, wow i didn't notice the guy was from SUSE (gnome-doc list)
<LaserJock> mdke: interesting thunderbird doesn't have a "Reply To List", it must be a bad email client :-)
<mdke> nah
<mdke> it's just not in the list of good email clients that have one
<mdke> ;)
<LaserJock> mdke: is it ok to make a .ent file for a particular doc. I have quite a few things I'm using over and over again but they aren't really useful outside of the Packaging Guide.
<mdke> sure
<mdke> or put them in the top of the packageingguide.xml
<LaserJock> mdke: ok
<Burgwork> mdke, rofl to the sounder post about Donald Duck
<mdke> Burgwork, :D
<mdke> Burgwork, i wonder if we can combine the shipit and free entries for the flash thing.
<mdke> afterall, shipit is free
<Burgwork> how about start out talking about free software and then transition to shipit and talk about free as in beer
<mdke> i'm just conscious that they may have to limit the number of items, so yeah, a combined one along those lines would work, I think
<mdke> I think the page is more or less ready for mark to look at and make some choices, and for them to start on some animations
<mdke> I'm really keen for the documentation one to make it
<mdke> :)
<Burgwork> I think the page is ready as well
<Burgwork> also I don't have more time to put into it
<Burgwork> bloody book
<Madpilot> hi Burgwork - how's the bloody book going?
<mdke> Burgwork, :)
<mdke> everyone in the docteam is writing a bloody book
<mdke> except me
<mdke> >_<
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm not, at least I don't think I am
* LaserJock goes to find a book to write
* mdke hugs LaserJock 
<mdke> noooo
<Madpilot> no book here, either :P
<mdke> stay and be in my club
* mdke grabs Madpilot too
<LaserJock> mdke: ok, no book writing for me
<jjesse> i just have the corrections of the 1st draft to make for my chapter
<Madpilot> need to go to work - later, all
* Burgwork hugs mdke 
<jjesse> who is working on the packaging guide again?
<LaserJock> me
<LaserJock> the Ubuntu package guide that is
<jjesse> is there a difference between Ubuntu and Kubuntu packagin?
<jjesse> is there a way the guide can accomodate both of them?
<LaserJock> some, I plan on getting Riddell or jpatrick to help write a section
<jjesse> ok cool they were just talking about it at the tech board meeting
<LaserJock> jjesse: I'm there too ;-)
<jjesse> ah didn't see you were there 
<jjesse> silly jjesse
<LaserJock> I'm up next
<jjesse> good luck, its tough i didn't realize how tougher it is from becominng a ubuntu member
<mdke> best of luck LaserJock 
<LaserJock> mdke: thanks, I need it
<mdke> nah, even if you don't get there now, you will soon
<mdke> and we love ya
* LaserJock gives mdke and the whole doc team a hug
<Kyral> Do the Daily Builds have the new Installer on them yet..
<Kyral> I wanna get working on this before school buries me again
<mdke> Kyral, apt-get install espresso
<mdke> espresso - Ubuntu live CD installer
<LaserJock> thanks guys
<mdke> it was released a couple of weeks back
<mdke> LaserJock, success?
<LaserJock> not yet, not sure
<mdke> Kyral, you might be interested in this too:
<mdke> espresso-guadalinex-doc - Guadalinex documentation and help files for Espresso live installer
<jjesse> took forever for jpatrick to get through
<mdke> espresso-ubuntu-doc - Ubuntu documentation and help files for Espresso live installer
<mdke> Kyral, ?
<Kyral> huh?
<mdke> Kyral, does that help?
* robotgeek wants to talk to Todd Lambert!
<robotgeek> he's doing quite a bit on the WifiDocs
<Kyral> sorry I'm zoning
<Kyral> ...
<mdke> robotgeek, he comes in here sometimes, nick of lambert
<Kyral> LJ going for MOTU kinda reminded me how much I have slipped in my activity recently
<LaserJock> Kyral: well, I didn't make it exactly so you have some time to catch up
<robotgeek> LaserJock: too bad, you'll nail it next time
<LaserJock> I suppose
<jjesse> the only reason that you didn't get in was due to the fact that none of your sponsors were there
<LaserJock> that's what I get for doing to much documentation and organizational work and not enough uploads
<LaserJock> ;-)
<robotgeek> hey jjesse 
<Kyral> Oy...
<Kyral> I'm gonna have to use cdbs on this one
<jjesse> hey robotgeek
<robotgeek> wow, this feels nice
<robotgeek> i'm in a virtual terminal, lol
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-12
<jjesse> nothing goes better w/ working on kubuntu-docs then a good glass of wine
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> wine has never been my cup of tea
<jjesse> but it is sooo good
<jjesse> when you get a good cup
<jjesse> or good bottle
<nixternal> I will stick to water, tea, and Dr. Pepper :)
<nixternal> heh, starts out as a glass and ends with the bottle
<nixternal> are you working on the docs, or the book?
<jjesse> book right now
<jjesse> trying to get that done so i can hammer docs
<nixternal> I need to do some doc work myself, but the Grammy's are coming on
<nixternal> did you get my note yesterday about it being KMenu ?
<jjesse> yeah i did
<nixternal> good
<nixternal> that was the main thing I was going to document for changes we had previously talked about
<nixternal> I should have the wireless stuff done this week for you
<jjesse> yeah i've been working on changing it
<jjesse> can you aim for wednesday if possible/
<nixternal> darn, I need to do the MIR for Edubuntu docs yet
<jjesse> i would like to try to get it to db by friday?
<nixternal> Wednesday, I can try
<nixternal> would you like a couple screen shots with the wireless section? KNetworkManager that is, or are you getting those shots for a general network section?
<jjesse> no that would be perfect, i'll renumber if i need to
<nixternal> are you using Polyester with your screenshots now that we know that will be the new style
<nixternal> brb, I need to eat some beans :)
<j1mc> hello, i'm looking to install a gui frontend to subversion, and wondered what some of you might recommend.  i'm running this on my P3-900mhz laptop w/ 256mb of ram.
<j1mc> i'm looking to use subversion to assist w/ working on the doc files.
<Burgundavia> hmm, gui frontend
<Burgundavia> gcvs might be able to do svn
<Laser_away> esvn is one I know of
<Laser_away> but on a P3 I'd probably just learn how to do it from the command line
<Laser_away> I've never been very impressed with GUI revision control tools
<j1mc> do you all just use the command line?
<Laser_away> I think so
<Laser_away> we have very few commands
<Laser_away> it's not very difficult to learn
<j1mc> ok . . .
<j1mc> i'm just checking through the doc repository info here:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<j1mc> would i be able to get the Xubuntu-doc files from the same repository location?
<Laser_away> yep
<Laser_away> we have 1 repo
<j1mc> thanks, Laser_away
<Laser_away> np
<cpk1> hello
<Laser_away> hi
<cpk1> just noticed that https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/hardware.html appears to have an error; I am pretty sure that 'sudo nvidia-glx-config enable' in the "3D Graphics Cards" section should actually be sudo nvidia-xconfig
<cpk1> If you are running an earlier version, type the follow
<cpk1> oops sorry for that second line dunno how that got there
<Laser_away> hmm, it *used* to be that line
<cpk1> and at help.ubuntu.com/community they use the correct line which is sudo nvidia-xconfig but just now I got someone who was only reading the kubuntu docs and so was getting an error
<cpk1> so yeah, dunno if you need people to verify to change and stuff, just letting you guys know especially since help.ubuntu.com/community has different instructions
<LaserJock> cpk1: actually, the best thing to do for the shipped docs is to file a bug
<cpk1> LaserJock: my first bug report we'll see how it goes =P
<LaserJock> do you know what to file it against?
<Ubugtu> New bug: #84666 in ubuntu-doc "https://help.ubuntu.com/6.10/kubuntu/desktopguide/C/hardware.html has incorrect instructions for nvidia configuration." [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84666
<LaserJock> cpk1: do you see that bug in the Ubuntu desktop guide to?
<LaserJock> I imagine so
<cpk1> LaserJock: hmm?
<cpk1> LaserJock: damn looks like you are right
<LaserJock> cpk1: well, I can't even find any nvidia/ati info in the Feisty docs
<cpk1> i edited my original
<cpk1> i havent even tried installing nvidia on my fiesty install yet
<cpk1> guess I can check that out later
<LaserJock> well, I'm guessing the bug won't be fixed in Edgy
<cpk1> the online documentation should be fixed at least?
<LaserJock> it is the same as the shipped docs
<cpk1> oh
<popey> er: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats/Flash states "Note the package flashplugin-nonfree does not work if you are behind a proxy server:". That's not true. What does that actually mean?
<popey> also no entry for Edgy
<poningru> :(
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3794 ubuntu/programming/C/programming.xml: Large reworking of programming.xml
<bhuvan> mdke: ping
<mdke> bhuvan: (In case I'm not around at the moment, please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I get back)
<jsgotangco> ohh nice script
<popey> hehe
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3795 ubuntu/misc/ (3 files):
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * ubuntu/misc/partitionsandbooting.xml
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * ubuntu/misc/config-desktop.xml
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * ubuntu/misc/basic-concepts.xml
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  Fix the path for entities.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3796 ubuntu/keeping-safe/C/keeping-safe.xml:
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * ubuntu/keeping-safe/C/keeping-safe.xml
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  Minor fix for validating the document.
<Ubugtu> New bug: #51057 in kubuntu-docs "Link to RealPlayer 10 .deb is broken" [High,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/51057
<jenda> mdke: you around?
<jenda> mdke: is there a reason why the search box on ubuntu.com sometimes says 'buscar', sometimes 'suchen' and probably other variations?
<jenda> (is that spanish and german for search BTW?)
<jenda> If the idea is to cycle through the languages, hoping someone will notice how international we are... I like it :)
<nixternal> are there log files to tell me why the Kubuntu docs aren't building on d.u.c?
<nixternal> I can build them locally w/o any issues, but they will not build on the server
<mdke> jenda: a known bug
<mdke> nixternal: not sure
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3797 kubuntu/Makefile: cleaning up nasty spaces in hope this will fix the building issue with Kubuntu docs on the server
<nixternal> well, maybe that could be a problem. There were some bogus tabs/spaces in the Makefile
<nixternal> and I think in the past we experienced and issue with that
<mdke> if it works locally, it should work on the server though
<nixternal> I would think so
<nixternal> all of the Makefiles work, I just built them all out, and none of them crashed
<mdke> doesn't seem to have worked since 27 Jan
<mdke> trying a build now
<mdke> nixternal: is "make all" what you are trying? It's giving an error
<mdke> on the index target
<mdke> http://pastebin.ca/352317
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> thanks for that, it builds here, so that is odd. but now I know how to fix it :)
<mdke> cool
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3798 kubuntu/Makefile: this should fix it
<nixternal> OK, that should work
<mdke> I'll try a build
<nixternal> thank you sir
<nixternal> I should strip the index part out and create index: seperately anyways
<mdke> nixternal: works.
<mdke> btw, newtokubuntu/C/about-kubuntu/kubuntu-committment.html
<nixternal> woohoo!
<mdke> one t in commitment
<nixternal> heh, thanks for catching that :0
<mdke> ;)
<mdke> cya later
<nixternal> later
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3799 kubuntu/newtokubuntu/C/about-kubuntu/about-kubuntu.xml: 1 T in Commitment :)
<nixternal> ;p
<crimsun> (I'm actually in another meeting atm, so I won't be able to make the screencast one)
<popey> ok
<willvdl> what time is it again?
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3800 kubuntu/ (6 files in 2 dirs): makefile cleaning and index seperation, created tmplibs for the index.xml to build conforming to other pages
<poningru> in the svn where can I find the server guide?
<LaserJock> under generic/ I think
<poningru> ah thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-13
<jjesse> evening
<LaserJock> hi jjesse
<jjesse> hiya lj
<Ubugtu> New bug: #84816 in ubuntu-docs (main) "A typo in Ubuntu documentation" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84816
<LaserJock> I think that's a resolved bug
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: brian * r3801 ubuntu/about-ubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml: Resolves https://launchpad.net/bugs/84816
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 84816 in ubuntu-docs "A typo in Ubuntu documentation" [Undecided,Unconfirmed] 
<LaserJock> guess not
<Ubugtu> New bug: #84840 in ubuntu-doc "smbfs doesn't have installation instructions" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84840
<coreyt> So does anyone know if Click-N-Run is going to be on Feisty or the version after that one?  I've asked the question to linspire, but they just said later this year.  I get nothing for being an isider there anymore lol.
<jsgotangco> lol
<jsgotangco> my guess is that
<jsgotangco> it'll be integrated a bit with gnome-app-intsall
<coreyt> lol
<coreyt> just saw it, it's going to come with feisty
<coreyt> Linspire and Canonical issued a joint announcement that Linspire would begin to base its distributions on Ubuntu rather than Debian, and that Ubuntu users would be able to use CNR to install proprietary applications and drivers, starting with the Fiesty Fawn release.
<j1mc> heh.  how will CNR be better than what we have now?
<coreyt> here we go lol
<j1mc> yeah . . .
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3802 generic/serverguide/C/windows-networking.xml:
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: Fix for issue 84840. Add instructions about the installation of smbfs.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Matthew Flaschen
<jsgotangco> j1mc: sure gnome-app-install has the basics of being CNR itself
<jsgotangco> since it has support for commercial repos
<coreyt> reviews, ratings, everything in CNR will be tested to work.  Nothing usually gets into there that's not guarenteed to work.
<coreyt> On the linspire side that's how it always worked.
<coreyt> Of course I had access to the special repositories where I could install anything vs what paying customers paid for stuff that was vetted.
<j1mc> cool.  i guess i'll just have to go check out (i think it is . . . ) CNR.org . . . see what it's about.
<coreyt> yeah CNR has come a long way from the start.
<coreyt> It would be nice to see the reviews of the software merged with the Ubuntu version.  Then people can be better informed about something they install.
<coreyt> erm it's cnr.com
<j1mc> the screenshots of the gui make it seem a bit overkill, though.
<j1mc> thx, i found oit
<j1mc> it
<j1mc> i wonder if it will be installed by default.
<coreyt> I think it's balanced considering it's target audience
<coreyt> I've emailed a few linspire buddies who work there.  I'm waiting to see if they can say anything yet.
<coreyt> They're almost as bad as Apple lol
<jsgotangco> nixternal: ping?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: ping?
<coreyt> coreyt: pong!
<coreyt> ;)
<jsgotangco> chill
<Admiral_Chicago> jsgotangco: nix is asleep.
<jsgotangco> Admiral_Chicago: cheers
* Admiral_Chicago goes to sleep as well
<coreyt> Still from what I do know you could use CNR to find an app and learn more about it through reviews and you're free to just use apt-get yourself.
<coreyt> Figure I could start some feisty CNR documentation someday
<jsgotangco> it is not yet clean how CNR will fit it to feisty though
<jsgotangco> as it has arrived mid-way to development
<jsgotangco> but we are not yet in freeze so i guess we will find a way
<coreyt> Understood there are tons of ex linspire users that run Ubuntu and would probably install CNR when it's avail.
<jsgotangco> perhaps it will be available for now under commercial as an optional-add-on
<jsgotangco> as with other software listed in g-a-i
<coreyt> There should not be much to do with CNR to intergrate it.  It's made smooth transitions in short times from Linspire to Freespire.
<jsgotangco> i wouldn't know, i haven't used linspire at all ;)
<coreyt> I've used everything :)
<coreyt> Was heavy Fedora for the first 3 releases then Ubuntu caught my eye and I was bored with gentoo.  It stuck so here I am.
<coreyt> In fact I'm using the server edition in my datacenter at work.
<coreyt> Works great.
<jsgotangco> that is good to know
<coreyt> ok it's 11pm here and I have to get up in 6 hours :)
<coreyt> nite all
<jsgotangco> ciao
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: pong
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: hey..what's the state of the doc for edubuntu?
<LaserJock> nixternal's kinda got that wrapped up
<LaserJock> we have an edubuntu-docs package
<LaserJock> we just gotta figure out to tweak the yelp frontpage to get rid of the ubuntu specific stuff
<jsgotangco> i thought one of the gnome people are helping with that?
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> but we gotta figure out how to make it work with edubuntu
<jsgotangco> you're looking into shredding ubuntu-dubcs and replace it with edubuntu-docs
<jsgotangco> ?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> keeping ubuntu-docs
<jsgotangco> but now showing as default on yelp
<LaserJock> well, we just need to get rid of About Ubuntu
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<mdke> morning
<willvdl> morning
<LaserJock> hi mdke
<jsgotangco> hello
<Admiral_Chicago> hey there Jucato
* mdke evenings
<jwhitlark> hey Laserjock, don't you ever sleep?
<Ubugtu> New bug: #84981 in ubuntu-doc "installation-guide not translated" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84981
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-14
<Ubugtu> New bug: #84997 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Firestarter is not in main" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84997
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: brian * r3803 ubuntu/keeping-safe/C/keeping-safe.xml: Changed firestarter repo resolves lp bug 84997
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 84997 in ubuntu-docs "Firestarter is not in main" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84997
<kupesoft> Hi all (=
<kupesoft> I'm going to rewrite https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter.
<kupesoft> The article is confusing, seriously lacking in content, and it's children documents (BridgingNetworkInterfaces) need work to.
<Madpilot> kupesoft, go for it, someone will review it informally at some point
<kupesoft> *too
<kupesoft> The article is so bad, imho, I've put an outline and a mission statement of sorts at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuWirelessRouter/New
<kupesoft> Have I taken the right steps so far?
<kupesoft> Madpilot: thanks,
<Madpilot> don't forget that the wiki has the ability to revert changes, so don't worry too much about changing a page - someone can always go back and retrieve stuff, if needed
<kupesoft> I've created the new article at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbunutRouter - can I use that a place development for a little while before the article is ready and  I link it to the main wiki?
<Madpilot> kupesoft, was the typo in that URL deliberate? ;)
<kupesoft> of course not !
<kupesoft> Can you delete the page for me?
<Madpilot> sure
<kupesoft> Thanks,
<Madpilot> last I checked, I'm one of only about four people with deletions privs on help.u.c/c...
<kupesoft> I know, I looked up on the launchpad group,
<kupesoft> *you
<Ubugtu> New bug: #85008 in xubuntu-docs (main) "Typo in Xfce Mount Plugin description - "umount"" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/85008
<ryukent> Trying to create a new page on the ubuntu wiki, but keep getting "You are not allowed to edit this page" for new pages.... does anyone know if adding is currently suspended?
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3804 generic/serverguide/C/installation.xml:
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: Fix the installation instructions for LAMP.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: Patch by: Matthew Flaschen
<kupesoft> Anyone want to proofread https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Router for me?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-15
<jjesse> hello LaserJock
<LaserJock> hi jjesse
<jjesse> how are u?
* mdke_ mornings
<mdke_> Laser_away: no one has stepped up for the serverguide packaging thing looks like. Know of an easy guide for how to build more than one binary from a single source? Maybe I can make a start
<bhuvan> mdke_: sorry, i'm unaware of building more than one binary from single source
<mdke_> me too. I don't know anything about packaging
<mdke_> we'll get there though
<Admiral_Chicago> hmm, i'm trying to add my information on my user prefernces to mail me changes to all the MozillTeam wiki pages
<Admiral_Chicago> Does "Subscribed wiki pages (one regex per line) MozillaTeam*" work?
<Madpilot> wildcards do work, yes
<linuxphotogeek> mdke: morning
<linuxphotogeek> mdke_: morning
<linuxphotogeek> I sent an email to the list from a foreign address 12 hours ago and it still awaits approval - are you the admin?
<linuxphotogeek> I've added this email address to my Launchpad page in hopes this will allow me to send mail to the group from the second email? am I deluded on this?
<nixternal> willvdl: 5
<nixternal> errr
<nixternal> never mind that, forgot the /wi tab complete for window
<willvdl> too late. I saw it
<jsgotangco> yo
<Ubugtu> New bug: #67966 in xubuntu-docs (main) "Xubuntu -- FIrefox home page still references 6.06" [Undecided,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/67966
<Ubugtu> New bug: #85375 in xubuntu-docs (main) "Broken link to Gnumeric Quick Start Guide" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/85375
<LaserJock> mdke: still up?
<linuxphotogeek> nixternal: are you a ubuntu-doc list moderator? (email)
<nixternal> yo yo
<nixternal> no linuxphotogeek
<linuxphotogeek> nixternal: is it just me or has the email ubuntu-doc list gone quiet?
<nixternal> linuxphotogeek: I am sorry, I am a moderator :)
<nixternal> I am at school and losing my mind
<nixternal> heh
<LaserJock> isn't that what school is for?
<nixternal> linuxphotogeek: I went ahead and accepted your email
<nixternal> LaserJock: I thunk so :)
<nixternal> crimsun: I have some c++ code. I compile with Linux (g++ -o foo foo.cpp) it builds no errors, but rounding on one problem isn't correct. With VC++.NET it works and rounds fine
<nixternal> do you know which optimization flag I should use to get this to work right
<nixternal> argh, time to go home, yay!
<linuxphotogeek> nixternal: thanks now I need to figure out what to do to be able to send to the list from either email address
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: brian * r3805 kubuntu/switching/C/installing.xml: Case changes for CD abbreviation
<mdke> LaserJock: hi
<mdke> linuxphotogeek: subscribe both and set one as "on vacation" so it doesn't deliver mail
<crimsun> nixternal: I'd need to see the code
<crimsun> nixternal: not to mention the compiler verion.
<LaserJock> mdke: you worked on packaging yet?
<mdke> LaserJock: no
* tonyyarusso is still reading the p.g. online
<LaserJock> mdke: are you wanting to ship it as both docbook and html?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-16
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: brian * r3806 kubuntu/releasenotes/C/releasenotes.xml: Reporting problems modification
<bdmurray> hello?
<LaserJock> hi bdmurray
<bdmurray> I was wondering, or can't remember, if the files in generic are used or not.
<LaserJock> bdmurray: well, they are certainly used
<LaserJock> it's just that right now everything is in a state of flux
<bdmurray> okay, I was looking at contribute.xml and things pertaining to bugs
<LaserJock> cool
<bdmurray> LaserJock: so it would get shipped with Feisty then?
<LaserJock> well, I'm not sure
<LaserJock> we took out generic stuff from the shipped docs a while back because of the Topic Based Help spec
<LaserJock> but we are working on turning the packaging guide and server guide into separate .debs
<LaserJock> and there is talk of moving the contribute stuff to the ubuntu website
<bdmurray> okay, anything about apport?
<LaserJock> I don't know that we have anything about apport
<LaserJock> bdmurray: what kind of stuff are you interested in putting in there?
<bdmurray> um, something about using apport to report a bug
<bdmurray> to get more informative bug reports than just going directly to launchpad
<j1mc> ok.  i'm back.
<Admiral_Chicago> j1mc: sudo apt-get install gobby
<j1mc> Admiral_Chicago, what's that?
<Admiral_Chicago> collabrative text editor
* j1mc enters apt-cache show gobby
<jsgotangco> ohh gobby session
<Admiral_Chicago> j1mc: oops, meet me in #ubuntu-marketing
<mdke> morning
<Laser_away> hi mdke
<Laser_away> did a little looking into the packaging
<Laser_away> I'm not too familiar with CDBS, but I found banshee to be a pretty good example package
<Laser_away> I'll look into it more in the morning
<mdke> Laser_away: banshee?
<Admiral_Chicago> it's a music player.
<Laser_away> the banshee source package
<mdke> it has multiple binaries?
<Laser_away> yeah
<Laser_away> and cdbs
<mdke> oh right, didn't realise
<Laser_away> anyway, cya
<mdke> night
<mdke> bdmurray: we're probably not going to ship contribute.xml, but we are shipping the material in serverguide
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: will * r3807 ubuntu/newtoubuntu/C/newtoubuntu.xml: Removed "What?\226?\128?\153s new since Ubuntu 6.10 (?\226?\128?\156Edgy?\226?\128?\157)" section
<nixternal> you know what. Setting up a printer that isn't HP is about the same as setting up a non-native wireless device.
<nixternal> you have to go through hell and high water just to get them to work, but with printers, if it isn't an HP, you are probably looking at one giant paperweight
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3808 kubuntu/network/C/network.xml: new content
<nixternal> wow, I just committed that w/o validating, that usually doesn't happen, but I got lucky this time and it was good
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3809 kubuntu/games/C/games.xml: Minor - correct typo
<cpk1> I dont really know where to put this comment but, in the user contributed docs why cant you start discussions about the page? instead you just have to add stuff in willy nilly and hope people notice what you did so they can double check it
<mdke> cpk1: there is no such feature in the software used
<cpk1> =(
<cpk1> thats a bummer
<mdke> you can look into some ways to implement it though
<mdke> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpWikiQualityAssurance has some ideas about it at number 3
<mdke> afk
<cpk1> alright thanks
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-17
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3810 kubuntu/network/C/network.xml: formatting titles
<martin_aulbach> I'd like to translate an article of the German Wiki into English
<martin_aulbach> it's about using Cedega in connection with a Windows system on a dual boot system
<martin_aulbach> http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/Baustelle/Verlassen/Cedega_Windows
<martin_aulbach> would it be all right to create a new Wiki entry this way?
<mdke> martin_aulbach: that would be cool - the best thing is to integrate it with any material on cedega already on help.ubuntu.com/community
<martin_aulbach> I'm happy to hear that
<martin_aulbach> yes, I'll take a look about other articles relating to Cedega, too
<martin_aulbach> anyway the article about Cedega on the German Wiki has been abandoned for some time, so I want to take that over
<martin_aulbach> and if I get around to do it, I can translate the said article about Cedega&Windows to English
<mdke> great
<mdke> I know the German wiki has a lot of good material, it would be good to benefit from that on the doc wiki too
<martin_aulbach> yes, it occured to me that there are actually a lot of entries in it that are missing from its English counterpart :D
<mdke> martin_aulbach: if you do though, ensure you merge it with the existing stuff at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Cedega, looks like there is already some comprehensive stuff there
<martin_aulbach> the last few days, I already wrote an article on a numerical library, based on the german version
<martin_aulbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lapack++
<mdke> rocking
<mdke> well done, that looks nicely written
<martin_aulbach> But maybe it would be better to create a new article about the specific topic of using Cedega together with a preexisting Windows? Becaus this is quite nonstandard stuff.
<mdke> nicely formatted too
<martin_aulbach> One can however make a reference in the main article to it.
<mdke> if it's genuinely a separate topic, maybe you could use a subpage, and a link as you say
<martin_aulbach> thanks :)
<martin_aulbach> ok, this gives me the confidence to create such an entry, then
<martin_aulbach> subpage sounds good
<somerville32> When is the documentation freeze?
<nixternal> few weeks
<nixternal> somerville32: March 8th
<nixternal> 19 lovely days away
<somerville32> Do the doc packages get autogenerated or is it manual?
<mdke> somerville32: manual
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<jjesse> busy day today?
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-18
<nixternal> jjesse: just watchin' some TV. now I think I am going to work on some docs seeing as we only have 19 days left until freeze
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: holler at your boy if you need help
* nixternal hollers
<Admiral_Chicago> show me the way..I've never done doc work but I'm down for whatever
<nixternal> I will take plane text right about now, as with 19 days to go, it would be difficult to learn all the way in which we do and don't do things with DocBook XML
<nixternal> man, I picked the wrong time to update the KDE repos
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: so where can I get started?
<nixternal> one sec
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: have you been using the new Adept lately?
<nixternal> how familiar are you with the new codecs stuff?
<nixternal> my lord there is still a ton it feels like
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: hold on a sec, let my eyes read this
<nixternal> hehe
<Admiral_Chicago> no I install via terminal but I can explore it
<Admiral_Chicago> again, i installed my codecs from the command line
<nixternal> what about printing?
<nixternal> programming?
<nixternal> grr, brb
<Admiral_Chicago> programming..what do you have for me
<nixternal> I have no idea, I need to look at it
<nixternal> ahh nevermind the programming, I will steal it from the Ubuntu side
<nixternal> jjesse: are you still working on the office docs?
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: http://doc.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/printing/C/index.html
<Admiral_Chicago> okay
<nixternal> what can you do with that?
<Admiral_Chicago> looking now
<nixternal> that needs content big time
<nixternal> you can use info from the wiki for printers and work something up
<Admiral_Chicago> oh wow, hmm I can start writing *something*
<Admiral_Chicago> i don't even use a printer so I'll look around for information
<nixternal> rock on!
<nixternal> the wiki should have some decent info
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: i don't even have Printers section in System Settings
<nixternal> alright, I am going to be at the keyboard but not paying attention to IRC, so if it is a few minutes until I answer don't worry, I will be here
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: Feisty?
<nixternal> under computer administration
<Admiral_Chicago> hold on a sec. of course Feisty
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: nope
<nixternal> umm, something is messed up then
<Admiral_Chicago> maybe, i'll check the status on cups
<Admiral_Chicago> one more thing, how do I *edit* this page
<nixternal> you can either download the .xml file, or just do something up in oo.o if you want to
<nixternal> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk/kubuntu/printing/C/printing.xml
<Admiral_Chicago> i'll mail you the .odt
<nixternal> there is the xml file
<nixternal> .odt is good
<Admiral_Chicago> eww, SVN.
<nixternal> eww?
<Admiral_Chicago> i like bazaar more. :)
<nixternal> Subversion > Bazaar any day of the week, until Bazaar gets faster
<Admiral_Chicago> there is a lot of work being done on bazaar for that
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: they have been working on it for a year now, until then Subversion is the puppy of choice
<LaserJock> bzr 0.14 is tons faster
<LaserJock> but svn is still very nice for a centralized repo
<nixternal> yup
<Admiral_Chicago> plus, I like the idea of decentralized systems.
<nixternal> 0.14 still takes a solid hour for the docs
<LaserJock> Admiral_Chicago: I don't ;-)
<nixternal> ya, centralized all the way
<Admiral_Chicago> it seems a bit exclusive to me
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: and what do you do when you looks your log in :)
<LaserJock> seems a bit more sane to me
<nixternal> but then again, I was the same way with CVS years back :)
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: say that again, this time in English :)
<LaserJock> yeah, the upstream project I work on is all CVS
<LaserJock> I went from bzr -> SVN -> CVS
<Admiral_Chicago> lose* quiet.
<nixternal> I was heartbroken with the KDE repos went from CVS to SVN
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: svn+ssh, if you loose your login, you lost your ssh rsa_id
<Admiral_Chicago> so just write anything about printing
<nixternal> plus, with regular http svn you login once and that's it, you take that key and save it to usb
<nixternal> you are good to go
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: yes
<Admiral_Chicago> okay
<nixternal> some, anything. Take a look at the Ubuntu docs for guidance maybe
<LaserJock> lol, I so wish savannah would move to SVN
<nixternal> http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/printing/C/index.html
<nixternal> hrmm
<Admiral_Chicago> ty
<LaserJock> nixternal: gnome finally went to SVN
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: kde'ize that
<Admiral_Chicago> i will
<nixternal> LaserJock: ya, thats where I stole my planetplanet layout for chi
<LaserJock> nixternal: is Riddell up?
<nixternal> man, GNOME would be the shizzy with a Konqueror like package
<nixternal> LaserJock: there is no telling
<Admiral_Chicago> says GNOME cups manager handles cups in GNOME, is there anything for KDE, i did an apt-cache search but nothing
<Admiral_Chicago> ohh kdeprint. i'm blind
<nixternal> haha
<Admiral_Chicago> hmm, i didn't have that installed, that might make a difference
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: i'm going to look at this tomorrow, can't focus right now
<nixternal> anybody an NFS or ZeroConf guru?
<nixternal> that is the last 2 sections I have for networking
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3811 kubuntu/network/C/network.xml: more network content - NFS and ZeroConf needs content
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3812 kubuntu/ (libs/kde-menus-C.ent programming/C/programming.xml): Kubuntu Programming section 99% complete - added new menuchoices for some apps
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3813 kubuntu/ (releasenotes/ unused/releasenotes/): release notes moving to kubuntu.org
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3814 kubuntu/ (misc/ unused/misc/): old desktop guide
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3815 kubuntu/ (5 files in 5 dirs): moving, removing, unusing
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3816 kubuntu/add-applications/C/add-applications.xml: add-applications 95% complete - needs aptitude procedure and info
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3817 kubuntu/getting-help/C/getting-help.xml: getting-help about ready
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3818 kubuntu/newtokubuntu/C/newtokubuntu.xml: newtokubuntu section rewritten - need Windows and Mac switching links
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3819 kubuntu/unused/ (desktopguide/ misc/ quickguide/ quicktour/ releasenotes/): removing, renaming, cleaning up
<nixternal> ooh, sorry for the flooding
<LaserJock> nixternal: lol
<nixternal> heh, I have 18 days to get Kubuntu docs finished
* nixternal kicks jjesse -> office.xml has your name written all over it :)
<nixternal> jjesse: I cheated, the programming.xml I stole/borrowed from Ubuntu, moved all the GTK junk towards the bottom and added all the C++ and Qt stuff at the top :)
<nixternal> tomorrow I have massive LUG event, yay
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: bhuvan * r3820 generic/serverguide/C/ (file-server.xml mail.xml web-servers.xml wikis.xml): (log message trimmed)
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: Add material for ruby-on-rails and ejabberd instant messaging server. In
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: addtion, it includes some brush-up fixes.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: * generic/serverguide/C/mail.xml
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  Fix the URL.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  Add material for ejabberd server. The configuration section is
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation:  incomplete.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3821 kubuntu/ (4 files in 3 dirs): copied over keeping-safe from ubuntu and edited accordingly
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3822 kubuntu/index.xml: fixed the temp index for doc.ubuntu.com
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3823 kubuntu/Makefile: added new docs and cleaned up Kubuntu Makefile
<Ubugtu> New bug: #86058 in xubuntu-docs (main) "Minor spelling correction - "Add Applications -> Synaptic"" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86058
<GatoLoko> hi
<jjesse> hello GatoLoko
<GatoLoko> is there any convention about naming wiki pages or about translated pages?
<jjesse> GatoLoko:  umm i'm probabllyu not the best person to answer your question
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<GatoLoko> i've read something about not trying to translate the wiki because it's huge and changes fast, but someone asked for a translation of one page and I don't know if I must do it in the wiki or put the translation in another site and give him a link
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<Admiral_Chicago> its really hard to try this printing thing when I don't have it on my computer
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: ^^
<nixternal> Admiral_Chicago: don't worry about it, I will work on it tonight
<Admiral_Chicago> nixternal: i'll translate the packages, and make sure there is content
<Admiral_Chicago> i'll do my best, maybe I can virtualize my Edgy Cd
<Ubugtu> New bug: #86124 in xubuntu-docs (main) "Instructions on how to add/chge repositories needs updating" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86124
<Ubugtu> New bug: #86126 in ubuntu-doc "Packaging Guide -- unclear instructions on page "Packaging from Scratch"" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86126
<Ubugtu> New bug: #86127 in xubuntu-docs (main) "Calendar listed as "Calendar" in Xfce menu, not "Orage"" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86127
<Ubugtu> New bug: #86128 in xubuntu-docs (main) "Docs reference Xfmedia, but Xubuntu now uses gxine by default" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/86128
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-11
<Lhademmor> Hej TLE.
<Lhademmor>  / Hi TLE
<Lhademmor> Have you had a chance to look at my Image Viewer manual-translation?
<TLE> hey, no not yet, I will soon though, I'm just replying to one of you other mails rigth now
<TLE> but you should feel free to start another one if you want to, you are not required to stick to just one translation at a time
<TLE> btw why are you not in #dansk-gruppen, since you mentioned in th mail I'm replying to that there are not many people in there
<TLE> every little bit helps ;)
<TLE> Lhademmor: ^^
<dhmorgan_> hello anyone, I ran into a problem over the weekend resulting from the various ways a Python package gets distributed; I've informed the package creator (pythonware), posted a note on the discussion list for the program that depends on pythonware's library, and now would like to add to Ubuntu's documentation to help others avoid a little time wastage; my question is, where should such information go?
<nixternal> dhmorgan_: help.ubuntu.com/community may be the best place for such a thing, unless it relates to an Ubuntu package, then possibly it may go somewhere on wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
<dhmorgan_> thanks, <nixternal>, I hadn't heard of the MOTU before
<ubotu> New bug: #191043 in ubuntu-doc "gnome-pilot app not syncing..." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/191043
<yva1> hey, I was looking at the Audacity page, while working on the documentation for Ubuntu Studio. I see that the instructions for starting it are correct for the plain Ubuntu, but wrong for US. Is it good to mention the difference on the page, or should this page be plain ubuntu only?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-12
<Gabz> where you you start with getting involved in ubuntu documenation ?
<nixternal> Gabz: typically the wiki unless you are ready to dive in with some DocBook/XML coding for system documentation
<nixternal> also, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam is another good place to check out, although it hasn't been updated in a while
<Gabz> ok i think i read the Doc Team wiki page didn't contain much...
<nixternal> ya, I haven't looked at it in a while
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-13
<Gabz> I'm working on this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SoftwareRAID right now and would appericate some guidance if anyone has time ?
<xara_> reboot
<Gabz> I'm working on this https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SoftwareRAID right now and would appericate some guidance if anyone has time ?
<alefteris> $ yelp about-ubuntu/C/about-ubuntu.xml gives me an invalid error.. what am I doing wrong? I am following the quide at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Translation
<seisen> you need to include the whole path, /home/username/.....
<seisen> I ran into the same problem and couldn't figure it ou
<seisen> *out
<alefteris> seisen, thanks a lot, I should put it in the wiki page then..
<seisen> it worked then I assume
<alefteris> yeap
<alefteris> any guide on exporting to html?
<alefteris> seisen, I updated the wiki page, hope its fine now :)
<seisen> that will probably help a lot of new people
<nijaba> Hello
<nijaba> Is there an index of the various tutorials that can be found on h.u.c/community/ ?
<alefteris> how can I include localised images in the documentation?
<nixternal> alefteris: there are a couple of ways to export to HTML, check out the Makefile for an idea... xsltproc is the app we use in the makefiles to build out to HTML
<nixternal> alefteris: also, for images you can look at using <imageobject>
<nixternal> nijaba: take a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/TitleIndex  give it a second, it takes a bit to load up
 * nixternal goes for a nap now :)
<seisen> naps are good
<nijaba> nixternal: exactly what I was looking for, thanks :)
<alefteris> nixternal, thank I am looking into the make file.. about the image: how are the localised pics supposed to be contributed to the upstream project? should i push them to a special directory in the ubuntu-docs bzr branch?
<alefteris> if i would that is :)
<alefteris> where am i supposed to send them?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-14
<eddieftw> jjesse: i have kubuntu hardy up and running, and willing to work on docs whenever you have time
 * eddieftw just read your blag
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-15
<ubotu> New bug: #192202 in ubuntu-doc "copyright dates not being updated" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192202
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-16
 * mdke waves
<Madpilot> morning mdke
<mdke> hiya Madpilot
<j1mc> hi mdke & Madpilot
<Madpilot> morning j1mc
<j1mc> mdke: is there a deadline approaching for the 8.04 draft documentation?
<j1mc> i see many many commits.
<mdke> j1mc: no, I've just been really lax recently so am trying to catch up with some stuff
<j1mc> oh, ok.  thanks.
<mdke> I'm not sure what the deadlines are tbh
<j1mc> np.  i can check string freeze.  would i file a bug against doc.ubuntu.com . . . the link provided for xubuntu points to the desktopguide.  the link is broken, and we use a similar "system documentation" now anyway.
<j1mc> http://doc.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/index.html works, though.
<j1mc> that is an oudated build, but it works.
<mdke> you can edit the sidebar directly in the ubuntu-hardy branch at teamstuff/doc.ubuntu.com or fine a bug
<mdke> the build is outdated? I ran one this morning...
<mdke> i guess that means something isn't working - I'll take a look later
<j1mc> hrm... i'll take another look before you do more work.
<mdke> it should be updating every 12 hours
<mdke> gtg for now
<j1mc> ok.  thanks.
<ubotu> New bug: #192408 in ubuntu-doc "Ubuntu Releases web page out of date" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192408
<mdke> j1mc: did you determine whether it is up to date or not?
<ubotu> New bug: #192488 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Please update ubuntu-docs from bzr" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192488
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-17
<ubotu> New bug: #192657 in ubuntu-docs (main) "NovÃ© nÃ¡vrhy na pÅeklad v balÃ­ku ubuntu-docs - "newtoubuntu"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192657
<ubotu> New bug: #192730 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Suggestions to Czech translation of package ubuntu-docs - template "newtoubuntu"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192730
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-09
<Kamping_Kaiser> hi all. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements has some /very/ low minimum requirements for "ubuntu desktop" with a note "The minimum requirements are only likely to allow a server (non-graphical) installation to run well"
<Kamping_Kaiser> shouldnt these 'no GUI' specs be moved under a server heading, and the minimums for desktop adjusted?
<Kamping_Kaiser> i think its wrong to say ubuntu desktop runs on <500mhz processor - bits will still flip, but its not usable by any stretch of the imagination.
<Traveler9> hello
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: that seems sensible
<Rocket2DMn> lots of activity on the mailing list today
<Rocket2DMn> hey mdke , do we still want to fix bug 243797 for hardy?
<Rocket2DMn> bah no ubotu here - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs/+bug/243797
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'm still of the same opinion as my last comment, tbh
<jpds> Rocket2DMn: Pardon?
<Rocket2DMn> jpds, what?
<jpds> mdke: Good evening.
<jpds> Rocket2DMn: Nothing I just made ubot4 join the channel after your last sentence.
<Rocket2DMn> ah, cool
<jpds> If it falls off the internet or something, just grab us in #ubuntu-irc.
<mdke> jpds: evening
<Rocket2DMn> mdke, i think we should implement using lshw for that bug since what is described currently doesnt even exist in hardy
<Rocket2DMn> though i think there are some problems with explanations of the output
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: right, I understand the bug, I just am not sure how invasive the changes are, so that's why I said I'd like to see a patch
<Rocket2DMn> ok, ill see if i can follow the directions on the wiki later this week and upload a proposed patch to the bug
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: awesome. don't forget to use the hardy branch for that one
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, i have hardy, intrepid, and ubuntu-doc branches downloaded and up to date
<Rocket2DMn> you just need a diff right?
<mdke> Rocket2DMn: sure, bzr diff can do the trick
<Rocket2DMn> yeah thats the command i see on the wiki
<Rocket2DMn> so ill make the change is minimal as possible then
<mdke> that's great.
<Rocket2DMn> guess i should dedicate some time during the bugjam to checking out ubuntu-docs bugs
<mdke> if you're up for it, that would be great; there are probably a few bugs that would be easy to fix
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, easy bugs would be a good place to start.  we have a bugjam meeting set for the 21st with our loco
<mdke> nice
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, we'll see how much time i end up spending helping others triage bugs rather than working on them myself, but ill do my best
<mdke> either way, sounds good
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, since its on help.u.c does that make changing it the docteams job? (and or finding similar places it needs changing)
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-10
<dsas> hmm, is there some way to keep the ubuntu ubuntu-docs bugs in sync with the ubuntu-docs project bugs?
<dsas> it's annoying having to check both places for a particular bug
<mdke> dsas: I agree. Unfortunately, it's not possible at the moment as far as I know.
<mdke> Kamping_Kaiser: it's on the wiki so anyone can change it. You may want to consult with the development team as to the appropriate new system requirements though
<mdke> dsas: it might be worth taking this up with the Launchpad team
<Kamping_Kaiser> mdke, ok
<Mike1> hey
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-11
<dnperfors> Hello, I was wondering.. Is the ubuntu-doc team also updating man pages?
<dnperfors> It would be great to have good quality man pages with the software on the system/server
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-13
<dsas_> mdke: I wrote to the lp team about managing bugs twice, see https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/60937
<dsas_> mdke: please amend/clarify as neccessary :)
<Rocket2DMn> dsas_, i think bugs need to be filed against both
<Rocket2DMn> ubuntu-docs is for the system documentation which is also available at help.ubuntu.com
<Rocket2DMn> ubuntu-doc team covers more, like the community docs
<Rocket2DMn> the ubuntu-doc team is the parent of the committers as well
<Rocket2DMn> it is confusing though :)
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: Yes. there's 3 things there.
<dsas_> the ubuntu-docs ubuntu package, the ubuntu-doc team and the ubuntu-doc project
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: The wiki bugs should probably be filed against a different/sub project that the ubuntu-doc team also looks after. or something.
<dsas_> Also there are various bugs the ubuntu-docs team should just be subscribed to...
<Rocket2DMn> well if the ubuntu-docs should be subscribed, then the bug should be filed under it
<Rocket2DMn> since it is a package which is installed on every ubuntu system
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: Not neccessarily,
<Rocket2DMn> do you have an example?
<dsas_> if there's a bug we've introduced into the gnome2-user-guide for example. ubuntu-docs should probably be subscribed to it, but the bug belongs with the gnome-user-guide not with the ubuntu-docs project
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: Though it doesn't currently work that way I think.
<dsas_> The bug gets filed against gnome2-user-guide and eventually one of may notice it.
<Rocket2DMn> do you have a link for such a bug?
<dsas_> no, it's hypothetical.
<Rocket2DMn> i dont really see how it affects anybody subscribed to ubuntu-docs if its not in the ubuntu-docs package
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: because we make changes to that package too.
<Rocket2DMn> if a change is made elsewhere, like during packaging, then it is a problem with our implementation of that package
<Rocket2DMn> (like if we edit a man page)
<Rocket2DMn> that's literally a bug against the package, though its not one that travels upstream
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: Yes. perhaps the ubuntu-doc team ought to be subscribed to such bugs in the gnome-user-guide package which the ubuntu-doc team do modify from time to time
<Rocket2DMn> from time to time huh?  I think in that case they should be manually added to the subscriber list
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: perhaps bug 201131 is an example of what I mean.
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 201131 in gnome-user-docs "Documentation for gnome-control-center does not mention PolicyKit" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201131
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: that is the current workflow. individual members subscribe to those bugs (they usually get wrongly reported against ubuntu-docs in the first place!)
<Rocket2DMn> so the task is opened against Ubuntu Documentation
<Rocket2DMn> that seems correct to me
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: it shouldn't be. It's not a bug in ubuntu documentation. it's a bug in the ubuntu package of gnome-user-docs that is handled by the doc team
<Rocket2DMn> "The Ubuntu Documentation Project (UDP) is a community-driven project that develops and maintains Ubuntu-specific documentation."
<Rocket2DMn> ah i see
<Rocket2DMn> i think its still appropriate
<dsas_> heh, ok. I guess we'll just have to agree to differ on that.
<Rocket2DMn> hehe, i think its easiest if you kinda ignore the ubuntu-doc team
<Rocket2DMn> that is to say, the project...
<Rocket2DMn> oh man
<dsas_> It still leaves the question that we have to manage the status of some bugs twice, or check in some locations twice.
<Rocket2DMn> ignore this - https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: Perhaps. That still leaves the issue above though!
<dsas_> that should be "check two locations" not "check in some locations twice".
<Rocket2DMn> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc is like an upstream for https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs
<Rocket2DMn> so yes, you do have to check in 2 places :(
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: Yep, that's the main thing I don't want to have to do.
<Rocket2DMn> heh, im not really sure there is any way around it.  the latter is the actual ubuntu package that users would file bugs to, say, if they use apport
<Rocket2DMn> whereas the former is where code is maintained
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: I couldn't think of anything either, that's why I asked the LP guys.
<dsas_> probably a bit of a long-shot :)
<dsas_> we're a bit of an edge case I imagine.
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, thanks for taking interest though
<Rocket2DMn> it's just that there isn't another upstream location, ubuntu-docs package upstream IS on launchpad as well
<dsas_> Yes, and the package is maintained by us. and our "Fix released" is when a new package gets released etc.
<dsas_> it's an artificial distinction that doesn't really help us.
<dsas_> Though I suppose there is an argument that the case of someone deriving from ubuntu is currently catered for.
<dsas_> not that I ever knew of a deriviative caring about the system docs
<Rocket2DMn> we can still use fix committed and fix released
<Rocket2DMn> if fixed code is in a bzr branch, then it's committed, if it's pushed to the package and placed in a repository, then its released
<Rocket2DMn> it is pretty trivial though
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: yes. that's the same for the ubuntu package and the "upstream" development.
<dsas_> they both happen at the same time.
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, though there is some delay
<dsas_> we count fix committed for the upstream project and the source as when a fix is checked into bzr (this is similar to how the ubuntu-gnome desktop team work)
<dsas_> we count fix released for the upstream project when a new package is in the ubuntu repos, we count fix released for the packages when a new package is in the repos
<Rocket2DMn> yeah, i tend to think of Fix Comitted as  Work is Complete and available for download somewhere
<Rocket2DMn> Fix Released means its in the ubuntu repos (for ubuntu-docs) or is merged with the main branch of the upstream code
<dsas_> Rocket2DMn: That's not how we manage that currently in our projet.
<dsas_> oh wait sorry I misread. Yes it is. the or bit is for normal programs
<Rocket2DMn> yeah i dont think i explained that very well
<Rocket2DMn> you get the idea though
<dsas_> yeah. it's probably because I'm having two conversations at once
<Rocket2DMn> thats ok im about to bump you down to one convo b/c im going afk
<Rocket2DMn> we'll see if matthew has anything to add, otherwise cheers :)
<dsas_> heh yeah, thanks for the discussion.
<dsas_> I'm going to get off soon myself
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-14
<bobodod> hello
<bobodod> anyone here?
<sommer> sort of
<bobodod> I'd like to ask a couple questions about getting started on helping in the wiki.
<bobodod> got a min?
<sommer> sure
<bobodod> I've got a few ODF docs I use to keep track of solutions I've found for Ubuntu problems, projects I'm working on or want to pursue, package settings I like, etc.  Is it cool to migrate those to subpages of wiki.ubuntu.com/bobodod/?
<sommer> bobodod: I don
<sommer> err don't  think there'd be anything wrong with that per se
<sommer> but if your current stuff applies to existing pages it'd probably be better to add the new content to existing pages
<sommer> also it'd be greatly appreciated to improve the community docs on help.ubuntu.com/community
<bobodod> sommer:  that's definitely the plan.  A lot of it is actually from those pages already, but formatted in a way that is useful to me, i.e. condensed & steps laid out w/o descriptions.  One of the things I want to put there is a large (& still growing) CLI cheat-sheet.  I'm definitely going to use these things not only for my own benefit but to help me manage the ways in which I can help the community docs, which is why I thought it might
<bobodod>  be ok.
<sommer> cool, I say go for it... great thing about wikis is they're easy to change :)
<bobodod> do you have any idea if there's a way for me to backup those pages once I put them there?  What would be ideal would be to be able to cache local copies & keep them sync'd (for backup & offline reference).  I searched MoinMoin's site & a few other places for a way to do this, but all I could find was stuff about using rsync & so on, which I don't think I could do w/o lower-level access.
<bobodod> Although, I could use HTTrack...
<bobodod> I think...
<sommer> ya, not sure about that... I'd think the only way'd be some sort of scraper
<bobodod> ok, right on.  That's what HTTrack is & it happens to be packaged in the Universe repository already.  Check it out here, if you're curious:  http://www.httrack.com/
<bobodod> sommer:  thanks a lot for your help!  I recognize your name, so I must have seen your work in the docs.
<sommer> bobodod: np
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-15
<mdke> dsas_: on https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/60937, I think the question needs to be reopened, as when I commented it seems to have marked the question as "answered". I guess I clicked the wrong button. Can you do that? I can't find an option to
<pop79> hi
<pop79> i have an idea
<pop79> im wanting to make a presentation for ubuntu
<pop79> for putting on cd and showing people
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-15
<Traveler1> hi
<silvio> onde encontro o doc do ubuntu em portugues ?
<silvio> algem tem por ai?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-16
<dinda> jjesse: ping
<jjesse> pong
<LaserJock> hi all, is there somebody or sub-team working on UNE docs?
<LaserJock> anybody about?
<nixternal> what's up LaserJock
<nixternal> oh, UNE stuff...I heard it brought up a few times, but haven't seen anything yet on it
<LaserJock> ok, I started https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuNetbookEdition
<LaserJock> I just didn't want to step on any toes or duplicate already planned out work
<nixternal> unless
<nixternal> err, unless Canonical is doing something for it, but I don't think anything has been done
<LaserJock> no, I talked to who I think is the lead on UNE and he said nothing was being done
<LaserJock> so I guess that means it's wide open
<LaserJock> hmm, did I just paint myself into a corner? :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-18
<shadeslayer> anyone around?
<LaserJock> any wiki (help.u.c/community) guru's around?
<stlsaint> LaserJock: i can try and help though im very far from guru...
<LaserJock> I'm working on doing some documentation for Ubuntu Netbook Edition
<LaserJock> I notice quite a few places where Ubuntu Netbook Remix is talked about in a larger page about Ubuntu in general
<LaserJock> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick for instance
<LaserJock> I'm wondering if I should move Netbook-specific material into it's own page
<LaserJock> or whether to link to the large Ubuntu page even though a fair amount of it may not apply specifically to Netbook users
<stlsaint> LaserJock: im sure there is a unr page already created but is probably an orphan paged
<stlsaint> LaserJock: seems this was started but not completed: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UNR
<LaserJock> stlsaint: right, almost all of that material is outdated and not useful for Ubuntu Netbook Edition
<LaserJock> I'm trying to get things cleaned up
<stlsaint> LaserJock: well i ws unable to locate any docs directly tied into a UNR page on help site...
<stlsaint> LaserJock: which leads me to think orphan page
<stlsaint> LaserJock: thing is i would hate for you to start a big workup on UNR just to find that its already made somewhere
<LaserJock> stlsaint: yeah
<LaserJock> stlsaint: I started https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuNetbookEdition
<LaserJock> but I don't want to duplicate work if there's stuff around
<LaserJock> but the bigger problem I've seen is Netbook stuff embedded in regular Ubuntu pages
<LaserJock> like "For Ubuntu Netbook Remix, do ..." sections in the middle of a page
<LaserJock> it seems to me like it would be good to extract those out and put then in a NetbookEdition page
<stlsaint> LaserJock: yea i was just gonna add that you could go ahead and start a page then once starcraft comes in bring it to his attention
<LaserJock> starcraft is the wiki lead person?
<stlsaint> LaserJock: not so much THE head guy but he knows plenty on wiki and knows who to contact to get things straightened out
<LaserJock> ok, thanks for the info
<stlsaint> he is the lead wiki foucs group leader for the ubuntu beginners team
<LaserJock> ah
<LaserJock> I used to be a Doc Team member once upon a time
<LaserJock> but it's been a while, the team has changed a lot
<stlsaint> im not really anybody important...i just write and clean up wiki...simple
<LaserJock> well, that's important work
<stlsaint> yea
<stlsaint> Rocket2DMn: ping
<stlsaint> LaserJock: ping
<Rocket2DMn> hey stlsaint , what's up
<stlsaint> Rocket2DMn: hola...
<stlsaint> Rocket2DMn: user above...laserjock had a question about docs on UNR...
<stlsaint> Rocket2DMn: they were unable to find a doc just focused on unr in help.ubuntu...they wanted to make one strictly for UNR
<stlsaint> Rocket2DMn: i thought maybe there was already a doc for unr but was a orphan doc
<stlsaint> Rocket2DMn: any thoughts?
<Rocket2DMn> afaik, there aren't any docs specifically for UNR
<stlsaint> oh ok
<stlsaint> well yea i told them to go ahead and make one and talk to starcraft about how to go about getting it linked up...but you showed up first so i ping ya
<Rocket2DMn> i'm not sure how much starcraftman knows about system docs, he mostly knows wiki
<Rocket2DMn> I thought i remember discussion in the past about unr...
<stlsaint> LaserJock: ping
<Rocket2DMn> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks
<Rocket2DMn> thta says there are some docs, but i have no idea where they are
<LaserJock> stlsaint: hi
<Rocket2DMn> see bug 340246
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 340246 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) (and 2 other projects) "Netbook Remix needs a seperate ubuntu-doc branch (affects: 2) (dups: 1)" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340246
<stlsaint> LaserJock: Rocket2DMn here is also a good person to ask help on doc issues
<LaserJock> I was going to start with wiki docs
<LaserJock> I'm not sure if there would be enough material for system docs
<Rocket2DMn> the community docs are a good place to start :)
<LaserJock> there's just a few differences between Netbook Edition and regular Ubuntu that need some documentation
<LaserJock> I gotta run for a few min. bbiab
<LaserJock> back
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-19
<jjesse> how do i find out how long i've been a member of the ubuntu doc team?
<LaserJock> LP should say
<jjesse> yeah but where?
<jjesse> problem is i'm a member of ubuntu-doc-committers or whatever it is called
<LaserJock> you've been in ubuntu-core-doc since 2007-10-21
<jjesse> i think that is whne it was created
<jjesse> how did you find that?
<LaserJock> I went to https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/+members#active
<jjesse> tx
<LaserJock> jjesse: yeah, so there's really no actual record on LP
<LaserJock> jjesse: you'd maybe have to go back to ubuntu-doc ML records to get the actual date
<jjesse> yeah i owuld
<jjesse> wow can't type tonight
<LaserJock> that is a crummy part about LP team changes, you lose a lot of history
<jjesse> yeah working on a CV for a Canonical project
<LaserJock> sweet
<jjesse> yeah trying to figure out if they just want my Ubuntu work or everything else I've done :)
<LaserJock> jjesse: hey, are you guys doing any docs for Kubuntu Netbook?
<jjesse> ummm i dont' rememberw hat the answer to that question is
<LaserJock> heh, ok
<trijntje> hi all, are the templates that are on launchpad now the final documentation for Lucid?
<jjesse> no docs are frozen until string freeze
<trijntje> so the new docs will be uploaded later on?
<jjesse> docs will continue to be pushed until string freeze
<trijntje> is there somewhere I could monitor the progres of this?
<jjesse> by monitor what do you mean?
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-20
<Traveler7> Hey, I am a new linux user converting from Windows 7.  I'm trying to get a 7 year old computer to get Ubuntu.  But for whatever reason the install has failed.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-15
<johnny77> Hello, I am new to Ubuntu (about 4 months) and even newer to the Community. I am looking to join the Beginners Team, working with documentation. Would someone have a simple project that I can work on and better learn the wiki system?
<DarkwingDuck> johnny77: what system do you use?
<DarkwingDuck> johnny77: do you want to do wiki documentation or, system documentation?
<johnny77> I have Ubuntu installed with Xfce, Lxde, fluxbox.  I am currently running, and like the most, fluxbox.
<johnny77> DarkwingDuck: I would prefer the wiki right now, just started with it. I would like to know it a little better before starting on the system which I don't know at all.
<DarkwingDuck> johnny77: In the BT there are several good wiki documentation gurus
<DarkwingDuck> And, i'm not sure how much fluxbox stuff there is on the wiki
<johnny77> DarkwingDuck: Ok, I just wasn't sure how all this stuff worked and I thought maybe someone here could give me a little project to help me get my feet wet. Thank you.
<DarkwingDuck> johnny77: I'm not sure how the rest of the community does things but, I know how the Kubuntu side works quite well.
<DarkwingDuck> johnny77: you mich want to talk to starcraftman or zkriesse. I know them both from the BT
<johnny77> DarkwingDuck: I was talking to zkriesse and asked if he had anything at the moment and he said no.
<zkriesse> DarkwingDuck: He's been talking to me...I'm just trying to get him comfortable with asking around/talking in here
<DarkwingDuck> johnny77: there are always projects in the wiki. I just don't do much with wiki documentation.
<johnny77> If I edit a wiki page, who is notified?
<tsimpson> johnny77: whoever has subscribed to changes for that page
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-16
<johnny77> Who is in charge of the themes for the wiki that I can change in my preferences?
<head_victim> johnny77: depends on what you mean by "change my preferences"
<head_victim> Is there a problem with the change my preference window or are you requesting a feature be added to the page or?
<johnny77> In user preferences there is a drop down list to change the theme. I was wondering if I could get the files for one of the themes.
<head_victim> johnny77: does https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Templates help at all? I t has a section on wiki themes
<johnny77> let me look, I didn't know about that. n
<head_victim> johnny77: no worries mate :)
<johnny77> head_victim: That looks like what I want, but I can't get it to work. I've setup a desktop MoinMoin wiki so that I can edit it then paste it into the Community Wiki to avoid excessive saves.
<head_victim> johnny77: ah I just use a text editor for that sorry
<head_victim> It's sad but I know most of the syntax off the top of my head so that's not really an issue
<johnny77> And just starting, I don't know the syntax or what it will look like.
<head_victim> Another option is to copy pages to be subpages of your own personal wiki page and have a little sandbox there (which I have done in the past, I'm not sure if this is best practice though)
<head_victim> For example my wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris and if I'm working on a samba page for example I might copy https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Example/Samba/Page to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JaredNorris/SambaPageSandbox until I'm happy with it
<johnny77> thank you for that idea. I might do it that way.
<head_victim> It just means you still have to be connected to the internet, you can't do it "offline" that way but yeah, any combination of the 2 approaches might be useful if you need offline editing
<johnny77> head_victim: it's not so much as needing offline editing, but just I'm looking at rewriting a whole page. I just wanted to save on the saves that I sent out.
<head_victim> johnny77: fair call, I'd go with the copying one then if that works. I also use the preview button HEAPS
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-18
<czajkowski> folks may be interested http://j.mp/eOHQhR
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-20
<seidos> hello everybody.
<jjesse> hello seidos
<seidos> curious about documentation jjesse, just learned about this channel :D
<jjesse> yeah
<jjesse> hrmm bed time
<seidos> sleep well jjesse
#ubuntu-doc 2012-02-15
<MrChrisDruif> Are there people about knowing how to properly use #REDIRECT ?
<MrChrisDruif> Hmm, excuse my timing. I must be off, but phillw in #lubuntu-offtopic could also use the info, if anyone wants to help
#ubuntu-doc 2013-02-12
<BlinkinCat_> Hi all,
<BlinkinCat_> I'm in the middle of creating a new Wiki and am looking for help or criticisms - Would it be in order for me to copy/paste the URL here ?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-02-17
<OSIEL> i need help to participate in the Ubuntu Global Jam, i need a tutor for supervise our work the 2nd of March
<OSIEL> my team want to participate in development of documentation and translating of aplications
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-10
<belkinsa> Who is in charge of the community wiki?
<pleia2> what specifically?
<pleia2> Canonical IS runs the server and maintains the software, this team (and several of us who are admins) manage content
<eagles0513875_> belkinsa:
<eagles0513875_> hey
<belkinsa> eagles0513875, is asking this in another channel and asked me to ask this.
<eagles0513875_> belkinsa:  :)
<eagles0513875_> im here now
<belkinsa> [18:44] <pleia2> what specifically?
<belkinsa> [18:44] <pleia2> Canonical IS runs the server and maintains the software, this team (and several of us who are admins) manage content
<pleia2> belkinsa: wait, do you mean wiki.ubuntu.com ?
<pleia2> or the community help wiki?
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: the community documentation
<eagles0513875_> ya
<pleia2> ok
<eagles0513875_> are you in charge of that team pleia2
<pleia2> we don't have a leader
<knome> eagles0513875_, maybe you should ask the real question...
<eagles0513875_> knome: it was just asked
<pleia2> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-doc-wiki-admins/+members
<knome> eagles0513875_, eg. "i want to get page X deleted" or "i can't login"
<belkinsa> eagles0513875_, [18:45] <phillw> community doc cannot, because of what it is, have a team leader.... any one can add / edit wiki entries... this is both its stregnth and weakness.
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: are you referring to the official docs
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: no, the official docs aren't a wiki
<pleia2> official docs are static html exported from docbook
<eagles0513875_> phillw: basically i think that the community wiki can have a team leader
<pleia2> why?
<eagles0513875_> one that ensures it stays spam free. things stay up to date
<pleia2> our whole team does that
<pleia2> one person can't :)
<belkinsa> No, what we need is people to know what to do and such.
<eagles0513875_> well i can setup a vm on my laptop but im having so many problems with my laptop and 13.10
<eagles0513875_> im not sure if ill stay with kubuntu sadly :(
<belkinsa> And of course, we need outside help for this: Wiki jams and developers telling what the changes are.
<pleia2> the problem with keeping everything up to date isn't that we lack a leader, we all work hard on it but it's a big job so we do our best with the resources we have
<phillw> that is why we have the tags.... I've asked many times for a group of people to update just one page.... No one has :/
<eagles0513875_> phillw: if i had the time and not such a screwed up sleep pattern atm with this job i have
<eagles0513875_> i would
<pleia2> yep, we tag things, and hope people who are knowledgable in that area update them
<knome> nobody can't really force anybody to do anything since it's a voluntary-driven project
<phillw> indeed.
<belkinsa> Sigh.
<eagles0513875_> well ill take a look through the documentation
<eagles0513875_> community wiki and see what i can try out
<knome> i don't understand the problem, or the frustration
<belkinsa> I shouldn't of started this.
<pleia2> great, thanks for your help
<eagles0513875_> belkinsa: you are doign a good job
<belkinsa> It's my fault.
<eagles0513875_> belkinsa: no if anything its mine
<belkinsa> Maybe the idea of Wiki Jams should be brought up again in the List...
<eagles0513875_> ya i agree
<eagles0513875_> and what happened to all the community documentation in terms of software :(
<pleia2> anyone is welcome to organize one
<eagles0513875_> there was a hell of alot more previously
<pleia2> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam is on Friday, 4 April 2014 17:00 to Sunday, 6 April 2014
<eagles0513875_> i can contribute greatly with how to's
<eagles0513875_> there is tons missing
<pleia2> can review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Docs and see what needs updating
<belkinsa> I will think about it.
<belkinsa> I have work to do.
<pleia2> unfortunately that jam is too late for official docs to be worked on, but wiki docs always can :)
<knome> eagles0513875_, you can start now, no need for a specific sprint
<eagles0513875_> pleia2:  belkinsa  is it possible if you are the author of a page to be notified of changes and basiaclly become the dedicated maintainer of that page
<eagles0513875_> knome: i know but im at work and i dont have my laptop to test on
<knome> eagles0513875_, you can subscribe to pages
<belkinsa> That would be nice, eagles0513875_ .
<knome> eagles0513875_, but you can't "own" a page
<eagles0513875_> knome: :) nice
<eagles0513875_> :) i have some very simple how to's on my old site which are concise and to the point :) such as for git and various aspects of git :)
<eagles0513875_> and other things which would be beneficial there :)
<eagles0513875_> i have lots of ideas
<knome> eagles0513875_, re: "start now", i don't mean now-now. just that you can start any time, and edit any page which you can improve
<knome> there is no restrictions
<eagles0513875_> :)
<knome> you don't need a permission to work on something
<eagles0513875_> knome: is the documentation something that will be updated constantly
<eagles0513875_> i know just motivation for writing wiki's
<knome> eagles0513875_, what are you referring to with "documentation" ?
<knome> the official documentation, or the community help wiki?
<eagles0513875_> i mean wiki
<eagles0513875_> sorry
<knome> it's updated as we go
<knome> it isn't tied to any release schedule
<eagles0513875_> good :)
<knome> people add information as they find something new that's useful
<knome> or when they have time to extend the pages
<eagles0513875_> :)
<belkinsa> It possible to do a Wiki Jam during Jam Week?
<knome> belkinsa, sure.
<pleia2> belkinsa: yes, that's when you do jams :)
<belkinsa> Alright, I just got an idea.
<pleia2> if you look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam there are lots of things people can jam on
<belkinsa> I have
<pleia2> Bugs, Testing, Documentation...
 * pleia2 nods
<knome> eagles0513875_, also, re: being a "maintainer" for a page... feel free to make sure any page is up-to-date
<eagles0513875_> :)
<pleia2> we sometimes also do dedicated days where we all work on the same thing, but we tend to call those "sprints"
<knome> eagles0513875_, just note that others can, and will, edit the pages
<pleia2> since "jams" are a specific thing that happen once per cycle, community and world-wide
<eagles0513875_> knome: no problem :)
<eagles0513875_> but if the content is good i dont see if there would need to be any chances
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-11
<eagles0513875_> humm have lots of things to try lol
<ikonia> eagles0513875_: please keep in mind you have to actually KNOW what you are writing
<ikonia> this means not making things up, making writing a document for "you"
<eagles0513875_> ikonia: i know.
<ikonia> this means writing a document that other people can use, explains the situation etc
<knome> "To edit the grub2 config, bacon eggs and tomato."
<ikonia> eagles0513875_: this also means not copying and pasting things from other sites/documents
<eagles0513875_> understood
<belkinsa> And I sent the e-mail to the team and three others.
<eagles0513875_> im not seeing any tags on any of the pages
<pleia2> eagles0513875_: add them :)
<eagles0513875_> pleia2:  belkinsa  wasnt it agreed to have the versions on each page?
<belkinsa> I don't remember.
<pleia2> no, too much work + maintenace burden
<eagles0513875_> ok
<pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag this lists the tags, so when you see something that a tag, please add it
<pleia2> s/something that/something that needs a tag
<eagles0513875_> :)
<eagles0513875_> belkinsa: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BuildingSoftwareReceipts <-- title doesnt make much sense receipts??
<eagles0513875_> and the title of that page all together doesnt make much sense
<knome> eagles0513875_, are you familiar with the content/issue at hand?
<eagles0513875_> knome: not quite please enlighten me
<knome> eagles0513875_, that's the point.
<knome> eagles0513875_, if you don't know anything about what the page concerning, don't touch it
<eagles0513875_> i wont
<knome> to put it otherwise, calling them "package recipes" makes sense for those who understand that area
<eagles0513875_> but on the main contents page it says building software
<eagles0513875_> and reading that i think compiling from source
<knome> if you don't understand something that is on the wiki, it doesn't mean it's wrong
<ikonia> a good example of this is the postfix docs
<eagles0513875_> what bout them
<ikonia> you argued they where wrong for weeks, but it was your lack of understanding of how an MTA works that was the problem, not the docs
<eagles0513875_> ikonia: well now looking at them and seeing the logs i see alot of warnings about depreciated settings etc in 12.04
<eagles0513875_> im not going to argue this
<ikonia> right, warnings you ignored and copied blindly
<ikonia> so again - you're lack of understanding, not the documentation
<ikonia> something that didn't need fixing
<belkinsa> IF it's not broke, don't fix it, eagles0513875_
<knome> or if you don't understand it.
<ikonia> if you don't know if it's broke because you don't understand it - don't touch it
<belkinsa> Sorry for butting in.
<eagles0513875_> belkinsa: you are fine
<ikonia> not at all, someone has to say it
<belkinsa> Heh.
<belkinsa> ikonia, mind if I PM you?
<ikonia> no problem
<ikonia> always welcome
<belkinsa> knome and pleia2: ping.
<eagles0513875_> belkinsa: pleia2  = work call
<knome> belkinsa, yes?
<belkinsa> Oh duh.
<belkinsa> knome and ikonia, mind if we have a PM together in another room?
<knome> i can do that
<belkinsa> Sent you an invite, knome.
 * knome sits back on the comfy chair on the corner
<belkinsa> knome, thank you for doing that with ikonia and me.
<knome> no problem!
<belkinsa> ikonia, I shall.
<julianofischer> Hi my friends, my name is Juliano and I work with the Brazilian Doc Team, I hope to appear here frequently
<pleia2> welcome julianofischer
<julianofischer> thank you, pleia2
<julianofischer> Someone can tell me when the 14.04 manual will be released for translation? (actually I do not know if already there is a 14.04 manual)
<pleia2> julianofischer: from ubuntu-manual.org ?
<pleia2> julianofischer: you want #ubuntu-manual for that, we're responsible for the documentation that's shipped with Ubuntu, available at help.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> March 20th is our documentation freeze, once we prepare the packages (typically takes a few days) it becomes open for translators
<pleia2> doh
<dsmythies> pleias2: Time between documentation string freeze and ready for translation is actually now very short. Serverguide is a matter of hours, and most of that is launchpad automated stuff delays, which are much much shorter than they used to be. Desktop help is a little longer and also dependent on someone with upload rights. Still should not be worse than overnight.
<pleia2> dsmythies: ah, good to know! thanks :)
<eagles0513875_> hey guys
<eagles0513875_> belkinsa: ping
<belkinsa> eagles0513875_, pong.
<eagles0513875_> anyone else around care to discuss a section title on the community help wiki
<knome> eagles0513875_, why don't you just ask?
<belkinsa> I know that needs to be changed to that, if it already hasn't.
<knome> (the real question, that is)
<eagles0513875_> basically i understood what the section entitled building software does. basically its for web based software and flash based animated software and eaccelerate is. Wouldnt a better title be building web based software?
<knome> care to point us to the page?
<eagles0513875_> https://help.ubuntu.com/community under software it says building software
<eagles0513875_> if you click on it it tells you how to use eaccelerate and build flash based apps
<belkinsa> Look, if it's not broke, DON'T fix it.
<knome> i guess the title could be better
<eagles0513875_> belkinsa: agreed but i feel the name is a bit misleading
<eagles0513875_> what im trying to say
<eagles0513875_> when i see building software
<belkinsa> Oh, there never mind.
<eagles0513875_> i would expect a how to on how to compile from source
<knome> i would merge that page in the "applications" subsection "programming" or "servers/web", looking which one has more similar items
<knome> i guess the latter.
<knome> eagles0513875_, will you do that?
<eagles0513875_> knome: i would feel better if someone else did it as Im not versed with details of other sections
<knome> eagles0513875_, i would rather see you do it.
<eagles0513875_> but i still think more then anythign building software can stay there and we have how to's on how to compile various pieces of software from source
<eagles0513875_> knome: i will do it but not tonight
<knome> it's not a big deal, put eaccelerator under "web servers", and the other one under "web applications"
<knome> when those are moved, the section on the frontpage can go
<knome> eagles0513875_, feel like procrastinating there, aye?
<knome> it's a 2 minute fix
<eagles0513875_> ok im doing it now
<knome> i cheated.
<knome> 1 minute...
<knome> thanks ;)
<eagles0513875_> lol
<eagles0513875_> how do you move the pages lol
<knome> you don't.
<knome> rather move the content.
<belkinsa> Or rename the page
<eagles0513875_> i was thinking of simply renaming the page
<eagles0513875_> building web applications
<knome> in this case, since content needs to be merged anyway, moving or deleting doesn't make sense
<eagles0513875_> ok
<knome> eagles0513875_, nope, that's not what i said
<pleia2> we don't really like deleting/renaming unless there is a very good reason for it because it breaks links for folks who previously linked to pages, see: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/DeletingAndRenaming
<eagles0513875_> pleia2: what do you think about the building software section
<eagles0513875_> its a bit mis leading imho
<pleia2> I'm at work now, don't have time to look at it right now
<eagles0513875_> ok
<knome> eagles0513875_, i've told you what i think about it, and it's a trivial thing really
<eagles0513875_> ok
<knome> i'll take care of the rest when you have merged the content
<eagles0513875_> ok
<eagles0513875_> let me get to a point here at work where i can focus on it
<knome> sure
<knome> eagles0513875_, hard time finding a spot?
<eagles0513875_> knome: sadly yes :(
<eagles0513875_> problems as usual :(
<knome> ok, let's do it when you have time then,
<eagles0513875_> dunno what time zone you are in
<eagles0513875_> but im in central europe so i will be available when i wake in the morning
<knome> don't worry, just ping me when you're around and i'll reply if i am
<eagles0513875_> ok nights at work are never the best for me :(
<knome> i understand. there's no hurry in fixing it
<eagles0513875_> knome: i emailed myself so :) i dont forget
<knome> worksforme
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-12
<knome> eagles0513875_, have you got to working on the page merge?
<eagles0513875_> knome: not yet hopefully tonight :(
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-13
<dsmythies> dpm: are you around? And are you David Planella? (I got the nickname from some IRC log that GunnarHj pointed me to the other day.)
<dpm> dsmythies, yes, although I'm about to jump on the phone and I might be a bit unresponsive in the next 30 mins
<dsmythies> dpm: When we export PO files from the Desktop help project, there seems to be 4 languages that are not included in the project.
<dsmythies> dpm: I'll add the languages, but...
<dsmythies> dpm: Is there any process for adding or subtracting languages, such that the doc team can plan for it, rather than discover it by accident?
<dsmythies> dpm: When we export PO files from the "package" version of the Desktop help (as opposed to the "project" version) some files will be in a subdirectory and some not. I have not been able to determine any pattern as to why. Do you know why? Examples: ubuntu-help/ubuntu-help-am.po ; ubuntu-help/ubuntu-help-cs.po ; ubuntu-help/fr/ubuntu-help-fr.po ; ubuntu-help/de/ubuntu-help-de.po
<dsmythies> dpm: About 42 are not in a subidrectory and about 22 are.
<dsmythies> dpm: When we export the PO files form the "project" version of the Desktop help all PO files, except ones where we have not setup the language, are in a subdirectory.
<dsmythies> dpm: Due to confusion we tend to get between teams and between "project" and "package", Gunnar was proposing that we don't even setup the "project" version of translations for Trusty. I don't know if that is feasible or not, but was looking into it (not that I am some expert, far far far from it), and found the anomailies I have asked about above.
<dsmythies> dpm: I'll be away from my desk for approximately 70 minutes.
<dpm> dsmythies, ok, thanks. I'll have a look at it and follow up on e-mail
<belkinsa> pleia2, ping.
<pleia2> belkinsa: what's up?
<belkinsa> I was planning to outline my lesson for the Doc Team/Wiki Day classroom session and is it okay if I run the outline with you to check for errors and such things?
<pleia2> sure
<belkinsa> Thanks, I will try to get to you within a week.
<belkinsa> Oh!  And one more thing, pleia2.  Can I also send the prefix info (the one to the owners of the Doc Team Mailing-List) to the mailing-list so everyone is aware of it?
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: ping?
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-14
<phillw> belkinsa: as long as you promise not to tell anyone.... I will help you with both docs and classroom sessions. you know where to find me.
<pleia2> belkinsa: oh yes, go for it
<belkinsa> Thanks again.
<belkinsa> knome, ping.
<knome> pong
<belkinsa> You are the one that designed the menu header item for the Doc Team's pages, right?
<slickymaster> anf the one for NewDocs
<slickymaster> s/anf/abd
<slickymaster> bah :P
<slickymaster> and ^^
<belkinsa> Trying to work one out and I'm failing for some reason, if you saw, knome.
<knome> nope, but i can look at it
<knome> which one?
<belkinsa> This is one: DocumentationTeam/MenuBar, is the one that I basing the NewDocs one off of.
<knome> where's the NewDocs one?
<belkinsa> This is the blank page: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Header
<belkinsa> I tried it but ended up ditching the header.
<knome> aha
<knome> what do you want to link from it?
<belkinsa> Homepage: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/HomePage Workflow: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/WorkflowPage
<belkinsa> What else, slickymaster?
<belkinsa> Oh!  The icon of NewDocs: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Icons
<slickymaster> hmm https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/ContactPage <---
<belkinsa> That too.
<slickymaster> belkinsa: above the Category tage you should have 4 hyphens, not 3
<knome> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/NewDocs/Header
<knome> that's the skeleton
<knome> how do you like it styled?
<belkinsa> I don't see it.
<belkinsa> And I will fix that slickymaster.
<knome> hard refresh
<knome> ctrl+shift+R
<belkinsa> I got it.
<belkinsa> F5 = that, knome?
<knome> that's not exactly the same
<knome> ctrl+shift+R purges the browser cache for that page
<belkinsa> I see.
<knome> and reloads all images and linked files again
<belkinsa> The header is good so far but did you add the icon image yet?
<slickymaster> belkinsa: no need to. I alreday done that
<belkinsa> Okay, for the image or the tag?
<slickymaster> hey looks great knome
<slickymaster> thanks for leaning a helpful hand
<belkinsa> yes, thank you.
<knome> aha, so you want to add the newdocs icon to the header?
<slickymaster> belkinsa: the tag
<knome> are you sure you want to use that image? ;)
<knome> the 14x14 px version doesn't look like... much
<belkinsa> slickymaster, thanks and the icon image is up to you.  I was just thinking of the Doc Team's header menu object.
<slickymaster> hey knome that image took me almost a afternnon to put together
<knome> awwh :)
<knome> i would have poked an icon theme and see for an existing icon
<belkinsa> We have 96^2'd and 172^2'd also.
<slickymaster> but I'm not a graphical designer and suck at gimp :P
<knome> belkinsa, i know, i'm looking at the icons page
<belkinsa> Er, 96 x 96 pi.
<knome> sooooo... how do you like that styled?
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Are you still looking for me? I know it is now very late for you.
<knome> color?
<belkinsa> I think the basic color that the Doc Team uses since NewDocs is a part of the Docs.
<belkinsa> If that made any sense.
<knome> if you're thinking like that, why not links the docs under the main docs header?
<slickymaster> hmmm I think that NewDocs never even thought about that
<belkinsa> As in?
<belkinsa> I was told that once, slickymaster/.
<knome> belkinsa, include NewDocs as an item to the DocumentationTeam banner
<slickymaster> that sounds a vet good idea knome
<belkinsa> Sure, I think that might be needed.
<slickymaster> s/vet/very
<belkinsa> Well, is very, very needed.
<knome> also thinking how high traffic the irc channel is? while i wouldn't mind to be on that channel, i try to limit channels, so... meh :/
<knome> this channel isn't too busy either
<belkinsa> Most the channels that I'm in are quiet.
 * slickymaster goes back to what he was doing
<knome> slickymaster, nooo
<belkinsa> +1 ^^^
<slickymaster> :)
<knome> slickymaster, unless that's convincing unit for the next XPL ;)
<slickymaster> :) that's where I was returning to :)
<knome> i always encourage new people to contribute any way they want to, but on the other hand, more bureaucracy is.. meh
<knome> slickymaster, did you look more closely to that... output i gave you?
<slickymaster> sorry, wasn't here
<knome> slickymaster, you are misunderstanding. we had a PM some time ago
<slickymaster> yes, I remember
<slickymaster> hey wait
<slickymaster> to which one are you referering?
<knome> haha
<knome> let me dig that up...
<knome> building...
<knome> humpf
<knome> http://temp.knome.fi/temp/docs/docs-popular.html
<slickymaster> ah, well I must say that that listing raise quite some drama among the ranks
<belkinsa> Brb- dinner.
<knome> well that's raw data, not an opinion ;)
<slickymaster> it was hard for some to understand what it was and how it could be worked with
<slickymaster> but step by step I manage to tutuor them and they are know actually using it as a aid in NewDocs
<knome> ok, cool
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'm here. :)
<knome> so how do you think about putting newdocs under the general docs banner?
<slickymaster> I think it would be a great bump for the project
<slickymaster> but I'm not NewDocs lead, I have always been kind of in the background providing a more technical view on what should be added or/and removed
<knome> i know it might be a bit touchy for some, but the name isn't really descriptive..
<knome> are the leading people (ever) on IRC?
<slickymaster> and editing in the comminity wiki page
<dsmythies> Gunnarhj: I was away from my desk for a moment.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Me too.
<slickymaster> nopes,they don't use it
<slickymaster> they are more into the forums
<knome> slickymaster, do you think there would be any chance to schedule a sprint with them?
<slickymaster> I can try
<knome> i think it would be a good idea to sit down together and actually talk between the newdocs team and other people who are working with the wiki, like some admins here (me, pleia2)
<slickymaster> I'll contact them to see if they're willing and their availability
<belkinsa> Back.  slickymaster, maybe need to pass this header and the linking of our team and the NewDocs to BlinkyCat?
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: What's up?
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I get the impression that outdated items are stripped from the PO files in the package, but that they are otherwise the same.
<slickymaster> I agree with you knome
<belkinsa> Or the whole team...
<knome> slickymaster, can also set up a doodle poll to find out what times would work for them
<slickymaster> belkinsa: ^^^
<knome> in what timezones are they?
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: So they seem to be synced somehow.
<belkinsa> Okay, that works also.  But getting them on IRC is the problem and timezones.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I agree (now and finally) except for the dates 2011 Vs 2013.
<slickymaster> australia, states (don't remember which state
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Yeah, I noticed those dates. But they don't mean anything in practice.
<belkinsa> But I think she is in EST.
<knome> getting them in IRC would only be posting them a webchat link.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: The POT file update yesterday thew me off. I can fix the dates amnaully
<belkinsa> So, -5 GMT.
<belkinsa> knome, yeah, but it's something else: they are forum folks not IRC folks.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I think I know how to proceed...
<knome> belkinsa, i understand that. forums aren't a very effective way to discuss things with people though...
<belkinsa> Agreed.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: ?
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll add the missing languges, take the PO files from "Package" 44 from no subdirectory and 24 from subdirectory and commit.
<slickymaster> I'v already set them up with personalized links to freenode, including the their nick's and channels names
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Sounds good to me.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: If I mess up, somehow, we'll revert.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I suppose that the fact that some of them are outside subdirs doesn't mean anything.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I still hope to hear from dpm on that. It makes no sense to me and I do not like things that do not make sense.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I think we proceed as you suggest, request an upload and see what happens.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll do my part, then you can do the changelog and go from there.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Why are you working with Ubuntu then? ;-)
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: lol lol lol
 * slickymaster is going to smoke the last cigarette of the day
<knome> slickymaster, belkinsa: anyone of them around right now?
<belkinsa> Dunno.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Sorry for the delays. Yesterday things were very confused.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Agreed. If you fix the POs, I'll update the changelog tomorrow and ping some core-dev.
<slickymaster> BlinkinCat might be
<slickymaster> Ä¨'l take a look in the forum~
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Really no need for you to apologize.
<slickymaster> yes, he's listed as being online
<belkinsa> BlinkyCat?
<slickymaster> yes
<slickymaster> knome: I'll PM via the forum to see if he'd mind to come here
<knome> sure :)
<slickymaster> belkinsa:if you please read the logs to catch up on what I and knome were discussing
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: One more thing: Shouldn't we go to https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ubuntu-docs/+sharing-details and remove the links to the project?
<slickymaster> knome: sent
<knome> slickymaster, ta
 * slickymaster now s really going to smoke the last cigarette of the day
<slickymaster> hey BlinkinCat good morning to you
<slickymaster> night to us
<knome> o hai!
<slickymaster> knome, belkinsa he's over at #ubuntu-newdocs
<slickymaster> is easier for us to go there than for him to come here
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll bounce all of this off dpm (already started, actually) and solicite his opinion.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Good. But I have a feeling that dpm does not know about the package related details. He isn't a computing engineer.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Oh.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: You often encounter that problem. Very few - if any - have the whole picture.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: So in this case I'd say that we will probably need to figure out some stuff ourselves.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K.
<belkinsa> pleia2, do you accept .doc files?  Because I'm thinking about doing my outline in LO Writer.
<knome> why no .odr
<knome> *odt
<belkinsa> Because my LO is set to .doc for the ease for everyone at my school.
<knome> heh
 * knome shakes head
<knome> belkinsa, go to sleep. you're tired.
<knome> belkinsa, you just sent a mail about mailing list prefixes, then sent another mail without one :)
<belkinsa> Carp, I did.  But!  It's not official yet.
<pleia2> belkinsa: fine by me
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: ping?
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I am here, but didn't notice your "ping" until now.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok..
<GunnarHj> Did you see that I can't approve those two imports?
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Guess it's because they have your name on them...
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, but I wonder if I just explained what to do poorly. I just sent you and e-mail with screen shots.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: For sure it is not becuase I did the commit.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Done. :)
<dsmythies> GunnarhJ: Great.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: What I did was clicking the yellow thing to the right...
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: And there was the approve option greyed out.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Anyway, this little issue resolved now. Thanks!
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, that is what I guessed just a moment before I was going to send that e-mail, so I did the screen shot stuff to clarify.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: So, are we ready to go now?
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes, I think so. Myself, I would like to export the POs again from the "project", just to observe if the new languages end up in subdirectories.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: And maybe just to observe/confirm that they are O.K>
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Do you mean before the upload?
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Isn't that one of the things that will be examined via the upload?
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I think you can proceed, and I'll do my bit when I have time.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'm talking about within the "project" only type stuff.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'll check if seb128 is still on line. It's a little late in Europe, so he may have left. In that case I'll wait until Monday.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I didn't do the changelog for this latest bit.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Saw that. I'll do it.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K. (it was on purpose, as I wanted you to do it.)
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Thought so.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: But going forward, I think we should consider to update the changelog together with each commit.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: No. And there is a long thread about this from last cycle. I'll try to find it and forward it to you.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok, discussed before... ;-)
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I pushed the changelog and talked with seb128, who will upload soon. :)
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Thanks for the update.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: np
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Now let's just hope that nothing goes wrong...
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: But I'm really glad that we do this now, i.e. not waiting untill after March 20.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I didn't see your previous two comments until now, but agree. The today PO files export  (project) all have proper sub-directories. The content is quite changed though, but seems like O.K. changes. Some of it seems to be re-wrapping of lines. More on that later today (I don't have time now).
<cprofitt> hello all
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Are you still here?
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Yep.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I haven't had the guts to look at the PO stuff yet. Have you?
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: For example, French statsu should have moved to about 121 string to translate, but hasn't. Maybe a launchpad propegation delay, but also see stuff held in queue here:
<dsmythies> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ubuntu-docs/+imports
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Don't you think we should wait a few hours - maybe a day - and let LP do its things?
<belkinsa> Hey therem cprofitt.
<belkinsa> there,*
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K. but "needs review" I think means manual intervention required. In this case, "package", I do not have rights. On the "project", I do.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'm not sure of that. I think there is some automatic "review" taking place. But that may take some time.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: So my suggestion is that we check the status again tomorrow and talk then about how to proceed (if there is anything left to do).
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I am not familar with "package" delay times. I watch "project" dellay times very closely. Thay are much much faster than they used to be. O.K. on tomorrow to pick it up.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: My experience is *very* limited. But I translated a few strings for the lightdm package, and noticed that my manual import first resulted in "needs review" but was imported a few hours later. And I don't think that any human did anything.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K. My only expericne is with the ones that sit forever in the import queue without manual help. So we'll see tomorrow.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: We will.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Btw, do you think the message to ubuntu-translators was clear enough?
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Yes.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Great!
<shaunm_> when's the next version of ubuntu, and what version of yelp will it include?
<GunnarHj> shaunm_: Next release is in April, and currently we have yelp 3.10.1-1ubuntu1 in the archive.
<shaunm_> GunnarHj: cool
<GunnarHj> shaunm_: Enough current version?
<shaunm_> I'm trying to get 3.12 to follow the GNOME 3 designs. I suspect that's going to make it less suitable as the help viewer under Unity.
<shaunm_> I want to work on making the UI adapt so that it fits the Unity designs when run under Unity, but feature freeze for GNOME is Monday.
<shaunm_> So if Ubuntu just skips 3.12 entirely, I can get some Unity design work in for 3.14, and everybody wins.
<GunnarHj> shaunm_: Hmm.. Wonder who should have that info. The package is maintained in Ubuntu by "Ubuntu Developers", i.e. no individual maintainer.
<GunnarHj> shaunm_: Guess the doc team should try to keep our eyes open. ;-)
<GunnarHj> Hi belkinsa!
<belkinsa> Hey there, GunnarHj..
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: Why not just go ahead and change https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Wiki ?
<belkinsa> Sure, but I think I want feedback first.
<GunnarHj> belkinsa: That change is so obvious so it shouldn't be necessary.
<belkinsa> Alright
<GunnarHj> :)
<belkinsa> On it.
<belkinsa> And done.
<belkinsa> dsmythies, you should be aware of this change.
<pleia2> belkinsa: I also don't think we need to "notify the community" of the change, it's really central to docs and it's automatic+transparent for anyone who visists help.ubuntu.com/community
<pleia2> it's really just a syncing up of our naming
<belkinsa> Gotcha.
<belkinsa> (Even I have the fear of doing something)
<pleia2> fear of doing something?
<belkinsa> Editing a page is what I meant and causing a uproar.
<pleia2> GunnarHj's right, it's a good change
<dsmythies> belkinsa: Thanks for the heads up.
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: shaunm_: We are not asking for a change to yelp version for upcoming release. We are wanting (must have) newer yelp-tools and yelp-xsl, as per the two bug reports I put in and set to "critical" a couple of weeks ago (to 3.11. something)
<GunnarHj> dsmythies, shaunm_: I just talked with Iain Lane, and he said that the Ubuntu developers are told to not upgrade to GNOME 3.12 for any package before the 14.04 release. So possibly we will have the burden of proof to make them upgrade to 3.11.
<shaunm_> dsmythies: it's safe to upgrade to yelp-xsl and yelp-tools 3.12 while leaving yelp at 3.10
<GunnarHj> shaunm_: No depencency issues?
<GunnarHj> dependency
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: shaunm_: I have been running yelp-tools and yelp-xsl 3.11.3 and 3.11.5 (cann't recall the order of which version goes where) with whatever yelp comes with 14.04 for a few weeks now.
<dsmythies> shaunm_: You know all this.
<shaunm_> GunnarHj: not in that direction
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: see: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp-xsl/+bug/1276227 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yelp-tools/+bug/1276230
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1276227 in yelp-xsl (Ubuntu) "Version >= 3.11.5 needed for Trusty" [Critical,New]
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1276230 in yelp-tools (Ubuntu) "Version >= 3.11.3 needed for Trusty" [Critical,New]
<shaunm_> yelp updates sometimes require yelp-xsl updates, but almost never the other way around
<GunnarHj> shaunm_: Ok, thanks. Then it shouldn't be a problem to have 3.11 or 3.12 of yelp-(xsl/tools) in the archive, I suppose.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Looked at those bug reports. "Critical" is not correct, I think, if you study the guidelines for setting importance. The packages are not shipped by default, but only installed as needed. So I would think that to get those upgrades in we'd better prepare the necessary MPs.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I did review the guidelines, and they are needed now and so thought cricial was apprpriate. I was trying to beat the debian import freeze deadline (now long past) becuase such stuff typically goes via debian first (acccording to Kevin). I have no intention of doing whatever MP's, at some point someone else has to to stuff. I'm overloaded.
<knome> pleia2, do we further want to change the wording on https://help.ubuntu.com/? Says "community contributed documentation" on the link now
<dsmythies> knome: I was wondering that also.
<knome> i mean, we probably do... but what text should replace that?
<belkinsa> knome, +1
<knome> "... visit the community help wiki for..." ?
<pleia2> knome: +1
<knome> ok, i'll reply on the ticket
<pleia2> knome: wait, don't we manage that?
<knome> do we?
<dsmythies> knome: and was about to update help.ubuntu.com anyhow as I didn't get around to the 13.04 EOL deletions yet.
<pleia2> I think dsmythies does :)
<dsmythies> pleia2: Yes we do.
<knome> ah, then ping dsmythies :P
<knome> great.
<belkinsa> Also, are we going to a have vUDS session for this upcoming one?
<knome> i've bugged the IS enough during the last month
<pleia2> I can't participate in mid-cycle UDSes
<knome> i can't participate in fake-UDSses (:
<dsmythies> knome or anybody. However, I looked at help.ubuntu.com a few hours ago and don't know what to change to what.
<knome> dsmythies, says now:
<knome> If you don't find what you are looking for, visit the community contributed documentation for even more material!
<knome> dsmythies, should say:
<knome> If you don't find what you are looking for, visit the community help wiki for even more material!
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Does debian has a plan to upgrade from 3.10.1-1 soon? Or are you suggesting that we would make an exception and bypass Debian in this case?
<dsmythies> knome: Aghh: The glue level html pages then. O.K. easy. It will be published after I do the 13.04 deletions stuff.
<knome> cheers :)
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I looked up the minatainers of both Ubuntu and Debian yelp-tools and yelp-xsl, and some were the same. So I had hoped that the bug reports would be enough to get some traction. It appears it wasn't. I was not trying to by pass Debian in this case, and originally there was lots of time, but I lost a bunch due to 14.04 development issues breaking my VM's. Anyway, it got to be now and I don't know what to do. I'll have to re-assess I guess.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: shaun put some stuff in particulary to address our upsteam problem reports. I had hoped to include in the LTS release from the start.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I'll take a look at the sources...
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Re: changlog stuff from earlier today. See: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2013-September/017776.html (the whole thread).
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Right, I already read that thread.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Actually I'm not convinced.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: You can well have a changelog entry UNRELEASED and add lines to it when committing.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: The advantage of doing so is that when you commit something (your own change or merging someone else's MP) you are completely up to date with the nature of the change, and it's easy to add a proper wording. If somebody does it afterwards, s/he needs to read up on the topic to be able to know what to write in the changelog. That's not very effective.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Well, I do not know what to say here. I thought we drove this topic to conlusion. We can re-open the discussion. Myself, I'm against it.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: What makes you be against it?
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: It's not a big deal for me. But to be honest it took me several hours to update the changelog. Maybe I was too careful, but I took pains in getting all the LP: #xxxxxxx in, for instance.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I'll forward you an e-mail in a moment.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: As regards yelp-tools and yelp-xsl: We have exactly the same stuff in the archive as Debian unstable. Maybe we should talk to somebody about the possibilities to upgrade.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Bug reports don't always get the attention they deserve. Since there are far too many of them compared to the available developer resources.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: Agreed, and I know. I simply have not had to capactity to follow up since I entered the bug reports.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Don't we all have some loose ends... ;-)
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Read the e-mail.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: I feel we are currently dealing with things that may have caused frustration in the past. :)
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: But I suggest that we drop the changelog discussion for now. Maybe next cycle...
<knome> i'd like to read a mail that speaks for not updating changelogs as you go as well...
<dsmythies> knome: most of the discussion is in the thread I gave a link to above.
<knome> ok, i'll look there
<dsmythies> knome: We relied on input from Matthew East on the sbuject. However GunnarHj has a point as to how long it took him to update it.
<knome> i mostly tell people to update the changelog as they go
<knome> ultimately, when we're closer to release, it's easier to make it look a bit better
<knome> than start looking at diffs
<GunnarHj> I think the changelog is not just a formality. It's a way to give people who fixed bugs public credit for their work, and as regards packagex (ubuntu) bug tasks, the LP: #xxxxxxx entries result in those tasks autmatically be marked as "Fix released".
<knome> GunnarHj, when the package is uploaded.
<knome> GunnarHj, but not when it's merged.
<GunnarHj> knome: Right, when uploaded.
<knome> i don't see any problem bugs that are fixed and merged in a branch that is used to built packages for the current release, marked fix committed
<GunnarHj> knome: That sentence is not easy to parse. ;-)
<knome> lol, i'll rephras
<knome> if bugfixes are in a branch, which is the source for a package,
<knome> i don't see any problem with the respective bugs marked "fix committed"
<knome> ultimately, the UNRELEASED status makes it obivious that the bugfixes aren't *released*
<knome> failure to release bugfixes that are waiting in a branch that only needs an upload is another story
<GunnarHj> knome: No, before the package *upload*, "Fix committed" is the correct status, I think.
<knome> GunnarHj, ...which is what the bugs will have
<knome> they're marked "fix released" only after upload+release is done
<GunnarHj> knome: I know - did you think I said something else?
<knome> no
<knome> i guess we're agreeing here
<GunnarHj> me too
<knome> i fail to see arguments against building the changelog up as we go
<knome> we encourage people to update the changelog when they've done changes to the documentation, and tell them to use common sense if something needs an entry in the bugfix (IMO, "fixed a typo" doesn't)
<knome> practically we still see if the changelog correlates with reality when uploading
<dsmythies> knome: belkinsa: I am now going to to help.ubuntu.com in two steps. Please see step one, I think I got them all (except 13.04, because it will be deleted in step 2 anyhow): http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/revision/116
<belkinsa> You still have 10.04
<dsmythies> Yes, for serverguide
<belkinsa> Oh.
<knome> is "the excellent source of community help wiki" fluent?
<dsmythies> Dekstop is EOL and has been deleted.
<dsmythies> knome: huh?
<knome> <p>If you can't find what you are looking for here, try the excellent source of <a href="https://help.ubuntu.com/community" target="_top">community help wiki</a>.</p>
<knome> that's what 13.10 and previous say
<knome> i would probably just s/try the excellent source of/visit the/
<dsmythies> knome: O.K.
<knome> (as it stands in the current index.html anyway)
<knome> otherwise, ack
<dsmythies> knome: see: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/help.ubuntu.com/revision/117
<knome> dsmythies, ACK
<knome> looks good
<belkinsa> All, sorry for that last e-mail, if it's too hard to read.
<dsmythies> knome: I forgot that you automatically get e-mails about changes to help.ubuntu.com anyhow, as I just saw in my inbox.
<knome> dsmythies, not the frontpage though
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-15
<belkinsa> Question: Is MoinMoin wiki markup based on something?
<phillw> belkinsa: http://moinmo.in/
<belkinsa> Duh, I could of looked that up myself.
<phillw> ub ubuntu has its own CSS ... as to the people accepting css that works is and has always been a problem.
<phillw> It is why I no longer ask people to help... they help and propose fix and it never happens... it is a good way to get people to give up on helping.
<knome> first, i don't think anybody had a problem with the css. second, how does ranting help?
<phillw> knome: with the greatest respect, I had a css person look over the errors on ubuntu wiki pages. some of the corrections were applied, some were not. This goes back a couple of years. And as for ranting?..... when you head but a brick wall year after year... you will decide to call a spade a spade, and an eejit an eejit.
<knome> i guess i understand your frustration, but i have a hard time understanding rants in team channels. nobody here can solve your problem with the canonical IS
<phillw> knome: the css was found to be wrong and some of it was replaced... you fail to understand the 'fun' I had before I resigned from such eejits who have no idea of the actual problem and are simply more concentrated on getting elected to some 'council'... you know full well what happened to ubuntu beginners team when it went council. Let us not pretend councils are killing ubuntu.
<belkinsa> Are is the mailing-list server lagging a bit?
<belkinsa> Or not.
<phillw> belkinsa: the servers can be hit... I was told that there was some spam kicking about so the servers may be under stress.
<belkinsa> Ah.  It looks like Yahoo kicked me off when I sent that e-mail the first time.
<knome> phillw, maybe i do fail to understand what you've been through, but it doesn't really warrant ranting over it on a random channel, at a random time
<knome> belkinsa, re: mailing list, not exactly. but i guess since such pages exist...
<belkinsa> They do and it seems that no one has ever used them.  And I think it is what eagles0513875 is looking for.
<knome> i've just edited the page
<phillw> knome: I'm not ranting :) I'm at peece... I am looking forward to learning how https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/964705 is solved and how lubuntu 14.10 moves forward.
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 964705 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "System policy prevents modification of network settings for all users" [Medium,Confirmed]
<belkinsa> What one?
<knome> also dropped the note about personal pages, because we purged them some time ago
<knome> belkinsa, the one you asked about... https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Communication
<belkinsa> Ah, right, right.
<phillw> knome: and for once... mark has not thrown his toys out of the pram. That is always good :D
<belkinsa> And is there a way to make sandbox pages invisible to the admins and subscribers?
<phillw> belkinsa: invisble? I doubt, sandbox... dead easy :)
<knome> phillw, good luck with it.
<phillw> knome: as bhodi-zazen (the founder of ubuntu beginners team) has agreed to help make the non-pae kernel... I'm hopeful that he will make it. For the others who doubt? Well, go bet against the founder of UBT.
<phillw> It's not *what* you know... it is *who* you know.
<knome> i thought we ended the ranting already?
<phillw> it appears that people doubt that I am committed... it is at that point I get into rant mode....
<phillw> so many people telling me that I cannot make it happen.... so many idiots... I only need one person who can make it happen... such fun :P
<knome> phillw, i'm not judging whether you are committed or not. i'm saying you should stop the ranting.
<knome> i'm off for now, see you all later
<phillw> knome: the Release squad  should not over ride the release team members... it was the idea that us flavours had the 'yes' or 'no' at release time... receiving a complaint from an OP for a 'release' that we said was not to be released and getting a complaint that it broke some ones computer?.... How would you feel if if that happened with kubuntu and got a people making comments that it is crap?
 * belkinsa eyerolls
<phillw> belkinsa: such is life.... you can understand why I do not engage people in conversation :)
<belkinsa> I can, but sometimes the tone is a bit rant like.
<belkinsa> Is the Community Help Wiki having loading issues?
<phillw> belkinsa: I'm a  blunt northerner .... I call a spade a spade and a shovel a shovel....
<phillw> belkinsa: (and knome ) have a read of http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/6210074/Northern-humour-in-jokes.html and then work out why I hate 'councils' :)
<belkinsa> Planning this Global Wiki Jam will be harder than I thought....sigh.
<CrazyLemon> hey guys
<CrazyLemon> i'm translating trusty docs and i encountered a strange string.. https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/ubuntu-docs/+pots/ubuntu-help/sl/116/+translate     the last bit sounds strange to me
<CrazyLemon> "when you log into your account THEM" ?
<knome> "in them" i guess
<CrazyLemon> ahh.. that makes sense
<CrazyLemon> thanks knome
<knome> np.
<knome> anybody working on ubuntu-docs that could update the original string?
<CrazyLemon> while on subject updating strings.. string #128 has 'providors' which should probably be 'providers'
<CrazyLemon> string #143 has 'slect'
 * CrazyLemon wonders if he's flooding the channel with these reports
<knome> CrazyLemon, if you're familiar with bzr (and willing to dig deeper), you could send a merge proposal
<CrazyLemon> knome i'm familiar but i dont want to download the whole repo just for few typos
<knome> CrazyLemon, you could do a --lightweight branch
<dsmythies> CrazyLemon: I'll take care of your issues. Your first issue is line 88 of accounts-add.page. Delete them. Your third issue is line 43 of accounts-add.page. Second issue: accounts-provider-not-available.page:31. In future is would be great if you could submit bug reports.
<CrazyLemon> dsmythies delete what? i'm translating the docs.. i didnt build it yet
<dsmythies> dsmythies: I was just saying what needs to be done: I.E. After you have added the accounts, each application you have selected will Â automatically use those credentials when you log into your account.
<dsmythies> CrazyLemon: Your typo corrections have been fixed in the master code. Thanks for reporting them.
<CrazyLemon> dsmythies np
<CrazyLemon> in future should i rather open the bug report instead of copying them here?
<CrazyLemon> /s/the/a
<dsmythies> CrazyLemon: Yes, please.
<CrazyLemon> dsmythies one bug report per typo or all typos in one bug report?
<dsmythies> CrazyLemon: Whatever works for you is fine by me. For the one per bug report type, I tend to lump them at about 5 per commit anyhow.
<CrazyLemon> ok
<dsmythies> knome: belkinsa: The help.ubuntu.com changes from yesterday went live maybe a couple of hours ago.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-16
<pleia2> the rename of the community help wiki has messed up all my filters D:
<pleia2> my poor inbox
<belkinsa> All, can I have someone to test something with me?
<knome> o/
<belkinsa> Give me a sec,  I need to pastebin something.
<belkinsa> pleia2, looked at my outline and said that signing up for an Ubuntu One/Single Log In Account is different now and see the pastebin on what she said in an e-mail to me: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6945926/
<belkinsa> minus that random ,
<knome> https://login.ubuntu.com/
<belkinsa> Ah, duh.  It's like Amazon's.
<belkinsa> I can correct that page if you want.
<knome> that'd be cool
<belkinsa> Alright.  On it.
<knome> thanks
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<belkinsa> And done.  If there is anything to change, I will do it.
<knome> sure :)
<belkinsa> Thanks knome for testing this with me.
<knome> no problem
<knome> i didn't do much "testing" ;)
<belkinsa> Yeah. I forgot the quotes.
<knome> ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2015-02-09
<cprofitt> morning all
<balloons> aha, found this place!
#ubuntu-doc 2015-02-12
<pmatulis> morning
#ubuntu-doc 2015-02-13
<balloons> morning pmatulis
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: It looks like I successfully fetched revision 176.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: O.K. thanks for the verification.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: So, if I understand it correctly, the problem is that the revision is too large to be browsed on the Bazaar web interface?
<dsmythies> Yes, that was also the reason the e-mail team notification failed. So I spent last evening all worried, but in the end it was O.K.
<GunnarHj> Ok, good to hear that.
<dsmythies> Other readers: We are talking about a big revision to help.ubuntu.com that was pushed yesterday.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: I have another recent branch of help.ubuntu.com. I'll do a sync pull on it and see if I also get your 300 second timeout. (it'll be later today though).
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: That would be useful. In my case, I saw no other sign of failure, and it indeed completed.
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: There is an issue with linkback trail gray on serverguide 14.04. Master code is O.K. but help not right. I'll look into it later today. I check and check and check and still miss stuff, then see it right away when it has gone live.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Please note that you are not the only one who make such mistakes. ;)
<pmatulis> dsmythies: i did an update to 12.04 and 14.04 server guides.  any way to include those in the next help updates?
<pmatulis> dsmythies: what are your ideas on posting a bug affecting the sguide until it's fixed, then guide will be updated?
<pmatulis> (adding the bug within the guide i mean)
<dsmythies> pmatulis: from the meeting we have an action item to do point releases for 12.04 and 14.04 serverguides. Since what I did was cosmetic only, I didn't worry a out the translations part of it. My thinking was that we could now proceed with the proper point releases, including the translations update delay time. However, I think there is still some stuff you had wanted to backport to 12.04.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: i have quite a bit of stuff committed right now
<dsmythies> pmatulis: I don't know what you mean re: some bug report for serverguide.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: ah, i mean actually refer to a bug in the guide
<pmatulis> dsmythies: a big section of apparmor is messed up due to a bug
<pmatulis> (an actual apparmor bug)
<pmatulis> that makes the instructions not work as advertised
<dsmythies> Oh yes, I remember now, the bug report came a few days or weeks ago. While in general I do not like to refer to bug reports inthe serverguide itself, it has been done before. It might make sense in this case. It just means sometrhing else to think about in future.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: alright.  i concur that doing so is fine as long as we follow up once the bug is fixed.  this is the hardest part.  i'm not sure how to track that other than listing the bug on the focus page
<dsmythies> pmatulis: did that bug reporting edit ever get backported to 12.04?
<dsmythies> pmatulis: Tracking on the focus page is a good way to keep a reminder.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: not sure what you mean by backporting to 12.04
<pmatulis> dsmythies: so far there is no bug listed in any version of the guide
<pmatulis> dsmythies: that i know of anyway
<pmatulis> i think we may be conflating things
<pmatulis> dsmythies: ah i know what you're saying now
<pmatulis> dsmythies: damn, i haven't done it yet
<dsmythies> I think the original MP has been deleted, at least I cannot find it anymore.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: yes i removed it
<pmatulis> dsmythies: what is our timeframe for updating both guides?
<dsmythies> For the "real" point release?
<pmatulis> yeah
<dsmythies> As soon as we decide we are ready with the master branchs, then we need to to the pot and po stuff (or just POT) and then let translatros have time, say at least a week probably two. I was hoping something like just a few days from now for the master branchs being ready. I am out of town Monday and Tuesday, so how about thursday for POT thing?
<pmatulis> dsmythies: i can get the one remaining 12.04 MP in over the next couple of days for sure.  thursday it is then
<dsmythies> pmatulis: I'll do that approved MP for 14.04 that also needs additional edits when merged.
<pmatulis> dsmythies: roger, the one from kokandy
<dsmythies> pmatulis: yes. Will you take care of that bug report we talked about earlier, the apparmor mess one?
<pmatulis> dsmythies: yes, i'll ask the contributor to add an admonition for the apparmor bug.  i'll consider putting a note on the focus page to standardize such an admonition
#ubuntu-doc 2015-02-14
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: my synchronizing pull of help.ubuntu.com launchpad branch to my other local working copy was fine. No timeouts or whatever. I suspect I work at a lower level than you, as I only use terminal type command "bzr pull".
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Ok, good. Actually I used the terminal in this case too. Bazaar Explorer would have stalled...
<dsmythies> GunnarHj: At one point last night I thought Launchpad might be broken, so I reviewed some of the IRC logs. Evidently some new lp servers are pending, so maybe some of this timeout stuff will get better. I'm thinking beyond this particular case, and to the more generic timeout issues.
<GunnarHj> dsmythies: Yeah, the time out problems when working with translations, for instance, are very annoying. And there are plans to improve the situation. Possibly they have started to improve the resources.
<dsmythies> GunnrHj: yes, it is the translation one that I find most annoying. https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/736005 . But I get it often on the help.ubuntu.com branch also, if the revision is significant enough.
<aeoril> I changed my name on launchpad and now I cannot access my wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScottSanbar for editing.  Is there anyway to reset it, or delete it, so I can re-own it?  My old name on launchpad was sanbar, the new is my nick here, aeoril
<knome> aeoril, make sure you have logged out and then log back in
<knome> both in launchpad and in the wiki
<aeoril> knome cool!  That did it ... thanks
<knome> np
#ubuntu-doc 2016-02-19
<mhall119> pleia2: I was reading through the email thread on https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2016-January/019674.html and you said you weren't sure about the feasibility of 2-factor auth, was that because you didn't know if it could be enabled, or because you didn't know if casual editors would have a 2-factor device/app?
<pleia2> mhall119: it's just not my call, it may be tolerable on the community side but I don't know all the stakeholders here
<pleia2> I think it would be ok to enable 2-factor on *just* the wikis maybe, it would be a barrier but tolerable, that's not something I think IS would do for *all* SSO things though (lots of people in the world using Ubuntu's SSO)
<pleia2> certainly would be a lot better than what we have now :)
<mhall119> yeah, but SSO already has the ability for individual sites to request/require 2-factor on login
<pleia2> yep, it does exist
<pleia2> I don't use it
<mhall119> I don't know if the moin auth stuff has that ability though
<pleia2> I do a lot of work with openstack and it's not all awesome with 2-factor
<pleia2> (we are moving off of Launchpad/Ubuntu SSO some day...)
<pleia2> anyway, yeah, I don't know either re: moin
<mhall119> not to github I hope :)
<pleia2> no, we can't use proprietary software in our infra, we have our own openstackid project+service
<mhall119> ah, cool
<pleia2> and I'm pretty sure captcha was one of the ideas in the ticket
<pleia2> we have lots of ideas, but no feedback loop from IS about what's reasonable to expect
<mhall119> anyway, I worked on SSO and 2FA while in ISD, so if you want me to look more info the feasibility of it for the wiki I'd be happy to
<pleia2> if IS thinks that's the path to follow, I think it would be fine
<mhall119> ack, popey and I are continuing to poke people in IS about it
<pleia2> just don't want anyone wasting their time if it won't pan out because $reasons
<pleia2> like, political reasons
<knome> mhall119, i acknowledge it's a side issue, but re: the logging in issue; no, it was not fixed "many years ago", it was not until recently that ubuntu sso accounts had a username (without having been linked with launchpad)
<mhall119> knome: I had to deal with this in summit (and LTP I think) which I've barely touched in the last 3 years, so unless we're talking about different things, it was a while ago
<knome> this affected logins to the wikis and the qa trackers at least, it had a recent IS ticket
<knome> pleia2 can confirm
<knome> or might have a handy link to the ticket or sth
<pleia2> I think loco.ubuntu.com too, but I could never properly confirm with someone who cared enough and had never logged in
<knome> this totally wasn't "many years ago"
<knome> so maybe it has something to do with this issue
 * pleia2 nods
<mhall119> pleia2: knome: can you see ifyou can edit help.ubuntu.com/community/ now?
<mhall119> or, rather, that the people who could edit itbefore it was locked down can edit it agian?
<pleia2> will have to ask someone not in the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EditorGroup (or AdminGroup)
<pleia2> (I am)
<pleia2> mhall119: you could try :)
<mhall119> do I have the right set of permissions (and non-permission)?
<pleia2> I don't know, I don't know what you're trying to get by asking me to edit a page (I already know I can)
<pleia2> I assumed IS had made a change :)
<pleia2> since January 4th, only people in https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EditorGroup and AdminGroup can edit
<pleia2> that's only a few of us, so for the past month and a half the wiki has only been edited by those people, and people sending us diffs and things on the mailing list (very tedious, I don't have time for this)
<pleia2> since both EditorGroup and AdminGroup give administrative access, we don't want to just hand this out to everyone (the team has a process in place for building up a body of work as a trusted contributor for admin powers)
<mhall119> pleia2: I was poking IS and was told: 15:16 < neale> mhall119: known users now have read/write
<pleia2> I don't know what "known users" are
<mhall119> so I just wanted to have someone here check that it was all back to how it was
<mhall119> pleia2: I'm guessing people with accounts already on the wiki
<pleia2> I assume he means EditorGroup and AdminGroup? We got no word back on the non administrative ContributorGroup that we requested in the ticket
<mhall119> not sure what that means for new accounts though
<pleia2> we should probably figure out what they mean, there's been no communication in the ticket
<mhall119> ack, I'll ask neale to update the ticket
<pleia2> thanks
<mhall119> hmmm, they all show as ImmutablePage to me
<pleia2> so you're not a "known user", whatever that means :)
<mhall119> it means IS is pretending they don't know me :)
<mhall119> pleia2: In theory, a new user should be able to edit https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation right?
<pleia2> mhall119: not since the lockdown
<pleia2> mhall119: but in a properly functioning wiki, like we want back, yes
<pleia2> just like wiki.ubuntu.com
<pleia2> mhall119: update from neale just now indicates you (normal people) should be able to edit pages now
<pleia2> it's heavily cached, so may need to do a hard refresh when logging in to see things Edit-able
<mhall119> pleia2: yeah, something was wonky for a bit, but I can edit pages now
<pleia2> if it continues to be Immutable, welcome to our world, it's a nightmare
<pleia2> \o/
<pleia2> this gets us to our second topic, moinmoin sucks and is slow and is wonky :)
<mhall119> keep an eye out for more spam, but hopefully they've all moved on by now
 * pleia2 nods
<mhall119> yes,but moinmoin is editable again, baby steps :)
<pleia2> \o/
<pleia2> not sure I want to do a splashy announcement on ubuntu-doc in case spammers are watching :\
<pleia2> maybe people will just start to notice they can edit again
<mhall119> yeah, I was thinking that same thing, let the folks who regularly edit know it's back
<mhall119> but otherwise not advertise it too much
<pmatulis> wiki.ubuntu.com was attacked just a few days ago. it will probabl happen again to the help wiki
#ubuntu-doc 2016-02-21
<belkinsa> Is wiki.ubuntu.com down?
<knome> seems like it is
<belkinsa> Thanks knome.  I thought it was me.
#ubuntu-doc 2017-02-13
<melodie> hi
<melodie> is there somewhere a documentation explaining how to disable the launch of at-spi2 in Xenial and above?
<melodie> I don't need it, but it's part of the dependancies of Evolution which I do need, so I can't remove it
<melodie> bbl
