#ubuntu-tv 2011-11-22
<dmj726> hi will :)
<Wellark> hi! :)
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha willcooke and the rest
<Wellark> hi
<MrChrisDruif> How's it going here?
<Wellark> pretty quiet it seems right now
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, but I didn't hear about this channel untill today
<willcooke> Hello guys, MrChrisDruif
<willcooke> Wellark, hi
<willcooke> sorry I was OTP
<MrChrisDruif> On The Potty?
<willcooke> XD
<willcooke> phone!
<MrChrisDruif> Can't be, Ubuntu still got to release one of those ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> When I typed it, I thought I should be phone, but still...for the lulz I typed potty
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, what did you guys think of Thomas his mail?
<MrChrisDruif> And the others ofx
<MrChrisDruif> ofc*
<willcooke> Hi again all, back from meetings....
<tgm4883> o/ hello room
<willcooke> Hi tgm4883
<tgm4883> Hi willcooke
<tgm4883> meetings, bleh :(
<willcooke> hehe
<willcooke> So, you know what... I'm slightly surprised at how most people are of the opinion that 3d is not very important.  I thought I was in the minority with my opinion of 3d being "Meh"
<tgm4883> I think it has to do with needing new hardware, needing to buy glasses for everyone, and then even after spending all that money all you get is "hey, those mountains look a little bit farther than they used to"
<willcooke> tgm4883, thank you for your email by the way.  Very interesting.  I'd like to take a bit of time to properly digest it and write a decent reply...
<dmj726> It's probably important to support playback at some point
<tgm4883> willcooke, yea sorry about the long wall of text, we never did get a chance to meet up again at UDS
<dmj726> even if I don't personally care about it most times
<willcooke> dmj726, Where are we with capable graphics cards?  Do they exist?
<tgm4883> 3d graphics cards exist
<willcooke> tgm4883, UDS was HARD work.  So many people!
<tgm4883> nvidia has some, I would assume AMD does as well
<dmj726> we should use the right terminology here: We're talking about *stereoscopy*
 * willcooke isn't down with the lingo
<willcooke> the one where you have to wear stupid glasses.
<dmj726> which is when you get a 3D effect by having each eye see a slightly different image
<willcooke> yeah, that one
<willcooke> What's the alternative?
<willcooke> Is it that thing that R2D2 can do with the projection?
<dmj726> There are a number of diferent ways to indicate depth, but that's the one we call 3D
<willcooke> I guess that's the accepted standard now
<dmj726> simply moving the camera side to side, having objects grow smaller in the distance are all cues the brain uses even in "2D" films
<willcooke> right, I'm with you
<willcooke> Yes, when I say 3D I'm talking stereoscopic
<dmj726> just saying there's more to 3D (think how game engines manage it) than stereoscopy, but stereoscopy is our subject here
<willcooke> it is
<tgm4883> what would be required to support 3d? Just the ability to turn off the second picture? (by extension, support for a second stream of video)
<tgm4883> Honestly I think 3D is further down the list
<willcooke> I /think/ some devices just display the two pictures side by side on the same frame and then the TV itself does the magic
<imnichol> tgm4883: are you Thomas Mashos?
<imnichol> Oh, belay that, just saw the bottom of your latest email
<tgm4883> imnichol, yes
<tgm4883> :)
<tgm4883> rhpot1991, !
<tgm4883> rhpot1991 is on the Mythbuntu team as well
<rhpot1991> hi
<tgm4883> imnichol, yea that was a bit of a longwinded email
<tgm4883> I expect it to take a little while to get a reply or two
<imnichol> I was just wondering about your first email on the list: do you have a reason for not wanting Unity?
<imnichol> It seems like you think it's not ontrollable by remote?
<imnichol> Am I correct or did I miss something?
<imnichol> Note: I don't care one way or the other, I'm just curious.
<tgm4883> I don't think it would fit well on a TV. By that I mean the desktop in general
<tgm4883> You want a 10 foot UI for the TV, and I don't think Unity in it's currently form fits that
<tgm4883> now you could take a 10 foot UI and theme it to look similar to Unity
<tgm4883> Note: I actually like Unity and use it on my desktop and netbook
<imnichol> Hahah
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha tgm4883
<tgm4883> Hi MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> I've read your message in the list
<imnichol> Ok, I think I can get what you're saying.
<MrChrisDruif> And I agree on a lot of the points
<tgm4883> when you go TV, you need to scale everything up a bit
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed 10' interface
<imnichol> But I'm still a little unclear what you mean when you say that its current form doesn't fit
<tgm4883> TV's are like texas, everything is larger
<imnichol> Like the icon bar in the upper right?
<MrChrisDruif> But it doesn't necessarily mean we'd have to use XBMC
<imnichol> But unlike texas, we aren't trying to execute people with our TVs
<imnichol> ;)
<willcooke> XD
<tgm4883> Right, XBMC was an example. I suggest we use something that has already been developed and can be fitted for our needs. I really don't want to see yet another media centre startup
<MrChrisDruif> We could, but it has to have some serious theming love
<tgm4883> there are way too many as there is
<MrChrisDruif> Does anybody remember Linux MCE?
<imnichol> What's wrong with a media center setup?
<tgm4883> imnichol, Unity is a great desktop, but for a tv interface it is needing to be controlled by a remote control (IR probably), and then you have a bunch of wasted space
<tgm4883> imnichol, media center startup, not setup. Being with Mythbuntu, I keep my eye on this and every so often a new group of developers will try to recreate a media center from scratch. I guess that is the open source way though
<imnichol> OH ok I gotcha
<imnichol> And yeah I agree about the remote thing
<tgm4883> Sometimes it's a good idea, and things get better
<tgm4883> other times it is just because someone didn't like the design of other media centers, and it's irrelevant
<imnichol> Those are some good arguments
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, personally I think the XBMC theming engine has some good features
<imnichol> I assume we're all also on the ubuntu-phone mailing list?
<tgm4883> I'm not
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; I am at least
<tgm4883> although I think there are probably a lot of similarities between the two (tv and phone)
<tgm4883> Linux MCE is a heavily modified MythTV frontend
<imnichol> There's been some discussion on the ubuntu-phone list about using phones to control the tvs
<imnichol> And I presume that tablets could do the same thing
<tgm4883> imnichol, I do that already :)
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, and more
<MrChrisDruif> I like some features that LinuxMCE apparently has, like controlling the lighting in your house
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, there is a lot of hardware that is necessary for that
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, but still the option to do so
<tgm4883> home automation is something that we should consider though, I think it should be low priority though
<MrChrisDruif> Just some checkmark somewhere that you have that kind of hardware
<MrChrisDruif> First of indeed, but when the "basics" are done we should consider it
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, the issue is there isn't really a standard used to control that
<MrChrisDruif> Either here or the entire platform ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; the problem there are MULTIPLE standards used ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> +is
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, well yes. Multiple standards == no standards :)
<MrChrisDruif> -s
<tgm4883> And that is just for lighting
<tgm4883> you could do heating, CCTV, VOIP, all which seem to have multiple standards
<tgm4883> Minimally, I think lighting would be nice to have though since we are talking TV's and media centers
<MrChrisDruif> That's why I mentioned it in the first place ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> And after that I think VoIP?
<tgm4883> VoIP or CCTV
<MrChrisDruif> Easier will be CCTV ;-)
<tgm4883> along with VoIP, Video calling as well
<tgm4883> yes
<MrChrisDruif> But concerning this project I'd say Video Conferencing
<tgm4883> yes, Video conferencing would be nice and is a growing market
<MrChrisDruif> (I was thinking about that instead of the "official" ViOP ;-) )
<MrChrisDruif> Euhm VoIP*
<MrChrisDruif> Euhm, I was missing playback features
<MrChrisDruif> Like Blu-ray doesn't work at all for me
<MrChrisDruif> I've heard that can be solved with the paid fluenza codec pack, but that just one small mention somewhere
<tgm4883> So that is another angle, physical media
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah
<callumsaunders1> Can i ask, what is UTV targeted towards? being preinstalled in a TV set or a set top box?
<MrChrisDruif> I was starting to wonder that myself, if we would consider playback of physical media
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, looks like it might, their site doesn't point out bluray
<tgm4883> it does list the codecs, but I think the issue might be the encryption keys
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, not sure, I would say ideally on the TV, pre-built set-top box, and also an image you could install yourself
<tgm4883> I think in order to say it is on a TV, it needs to be built into the TV, although if it was one of the small linaro units that could be attached to the TV I'd be ok with that
<tgm4883> sorry, that is a freescale board, the mx53
<MrChrisDruif> Small quote from the Fluendo website about bluray playback: "We are currently not moving much in that field as BluRay has a lot of legal constraints making it very difficult for a Linux product to include it(we cannot certify it as DRM compliant). We will add support on GStreamer when libbluray and libaacs are ready for show time, so that the OpenSource players can benefit from it. Don't expect a "commercial" Linux BluRay player from F
<MrChrisDruif> luendo anytime soon, though."
<imnichol> Given the abilities of the raspberry pi, I imagine that there could be TVs with the computer portion built in
<tgm4883> Here is an interview from UDS regarding the i.mx53 from freescale
<tgm4883> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KtYAbAzJRw
<MrChrisDruif> Current flatscreen tv's already have software on them
<tgm4883> the size of the board is pretty tiny
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, yea, but every time i've used the built in stuff, it's pretty slow/crappy
<callumsaunders1> I can't see how UbuntuTV could work without here being an 'Ubuntu TV', if you get what i mean, time has proven that nobody wants another set top box
<tgm4883> More on that board with a better image of it  http://www.linaro.org/linaro-blog/2011/03/01/new-low-cost-cortex-a8-board-from-freescale/
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; I know, but that can all change when they might start using ARM processors i.e.
<tgm4883> Note: i'm not affialiated with Linaro nor Freescale
<MrChrisDruif> Like I said, ARM ;-)
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, could be ARM, could be Atom
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, Atom...a dieing race. It's got some catching-up to do
<MrChrisDruif> Atom is normal x86 btw
<imnichol> It seems to me that we should be eating our own dog food here
<tgm4883> yes, x86 and x86-64
<MrChrisDruif> Also?
<imnichol> I mean with the ARM stuff Ubuntu is starting to do
<tgm4883> imnichol, unfortunatly I didn't win any of the ARM boards they gave away at UDS :(
<tgm4883> That said, again I don't think it's something we should recreate from scratch. There are some perfectly capable media centers out there
<tgm4883> I'd have to look more into XBMC, I've heard conflicting reports whether it would work on ARM or not
<callumsaunders1>  I don't thin Ubuntu TV should just be another media center
<MrChrisDruif> If we want something soon, then yes. But if we want something good, well maybe we should?
<imnichol> So if it's not just another media center, what is it?
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, and that is how you start writing another media center from scratch
<callumsaunders1> Even Apple have failed to do the TV thing
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, what would you like to see from it?
<MrChrisDruif> callumsaunders1; it depends on what we want to achieve for TV?
<tgm4883> I don't think any of us think it's going to be strictly a media center, but I don't think we would say it is a desktop either
<callumsaunders1> I think that with Ubuntu getting into Tablets and phones and toilets what ever
<callumsaunders1> then that will be be its biggest advantage
<callumsaunders1> and all these devices should be able to play together
<MrChrisDruif> True
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, sounds like you haven't read my super long email :)
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, seems so
<callumsaunders1> there is interesting convo going on in the ubuntu-phone mailing list about using the tv as a hub for collaboritive and social applications
<tgm4883> I think we are all on the same page here :)
<callumsaunders1> where is this email?
<imnichol> It was yesterday on the ubuntu-tv list
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, on the Ubuntu TV mailing list
<MrChrisDruif> callumsaunders1; https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-tv/msg00003.html
<callumsaunders1> give me a min then :P
<MrChrisDruif> There you go O=)
<imnichol> lol
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, So I guess the question is, what are we trying to achieve that isn't currently an option with the already existing media centers?
<tgm4883> talking software here, not getting it on TV's
<callumsaunders1> thanks for the link, tgm4883, i agree with you on practically all points
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; it might not be creating what isn't on existing media centers, but finding a good way to put it all together in a fuss-free manner
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, thanks, I'm on the Mythbuntu team so i've been watching what people have been requesting for the last 3 years :)
<callumsaunders1> Haha people are funny though, they rarely know what they want
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, I'm not tied to any particular media center, I just don't want to recreate the wheel if we don't have to
<callumsaunders1> well
<callumsaunders1> what they need
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, what people need and what people want are two very different things
<callumsaunders1> true
<tgm4883> Mostly I listen to what people want and if it's awesome, start thinking about what it would take to make it happen
<tgm4883> sometimes it pans out, sometimes it requires too much other stuff
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; I think we should make a list of all the feature we might want implemented for a first version and see what software is most compatible?
<MrChrisDruif> (I think it would be XBMC, but still)
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, I think that is a great idea
<MrChrisDruif> When do we even WANT a first release?
<imnichol> Tomorrow
<callumsaunders1> Not until its ready.
<MrChrisDruif> I heard something in the lines of AFTER 12.04
<tgm4883> well regarding that, whatever we do, I don't think we should switch core items like that
<tgm4883> especially if we make it pluggable
<tgm4883> scratch that, I think pluggable is a requirement
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, yea, it's definitly after 12.04
<tgm4883> I'm guessing 13.04
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, about a year of development
<MrChrisDruif> Right?
<tgm4883> willcooke or popey would probably know more ^^
 * tgm4883 is unsure if there are other canonical employees in the room
<MrChrisDruif> Please speak ;-) (Btw, popey you've still got voice in here ;-) )
<tgm4883> for the record, I am not employed by canonical
<tgm4883> I'm just passionate about TV's :)
 * MrChrisDruif wants to become a canonical employee =P but that doesn't count
<callumsaunders1> just a dude
<imnichol> same
<willcooke> Well, how long is a piece of string?  I think first we need to know *what*.  Then we can work out *who* and divide up the jobs.  Then we'll work out *how long* by "simply" dividing one by the other.
<willcooke> In my mind, it makes sense to build on an LTS though
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, simply ;-)
<tgm4883> willcooke, I agree with the LTS (Mythbuntu is moving to LTS only releases for similar reasons)
<willcooke> MrChrisDruif, we're hiring.  Check out the careers page!  Loads of jobs
<tgm4883> Is there somewhere we should be making a list of features?
<willcooke> tgm4883, Good idea - we need a wiki page
<tgm4883> we can make it here, but it should be documented somewhere for discussion before it goes in a blueprint
<willcooke> We have a log bot, but I think a wiki page would be easier to maintain and follow
<tgm4883> willcooke, Wiki it is, although I really liked the etherpad we used at UDS
<willcooke> tgm4883, oh yeah, I hadn't even thought of that
<imnichol> Problem with etherpad's is that you need rights to view them
<imnichol> Or at least, I did
<willcooke> well, whatever is easiest - but not IRC :)
<imnichol> Agreed
<willcooke> Hmmmm - I don't have an account on the Ubuntu wiki.  Ooops.
<imnichol> I really hate that I need to create so many different accounts.
<tgm4883> Ubuntu one SSO FTW!
<tgm4883> alright someone create a page, i'm going to grab a drink then we can discuss
<popey> Ubuntu UK team has a public wiki.
<popey> you're probably better off using that for now
<popey> because the ubuntu.com one is getting some maintenance soon
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-tv to: Welcome to #ubuntu-tv | http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tv | http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV
<popey> there you go
<tgm4883> ^^ Shameless plug
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh, I thought you meant wiki...
<imnichol> Sweet
<MrChrisDruif> Now, where was that mail...*goes to inbox*
<tgm4883> So we have a pretty nifty list over at http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV
<tgm4883> If anyone wants to pop in and take a look, we're going to start ranking them
 * popey thinks it should be clearly labelled as a wishlist âº
<popey> a community developed wishlist no-less
<tgm4883> done
<popey> ta
<popey> don't want people wandering in and thinking this is a feature list which we've already settled on âº
<tgm4883> popey, how is that?
<popey> haha
<popey> thats outrageous!
<popey> it's 'popey' not 'Popey'
<tgm4883> fixed :)
<imnichol> Hey everyone!
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha
<tgm4883> ok, so prioritizing the items, we will discuss that here so it's logged and other people can weigh in
<imnichol> Sounds good
<imnichol> What's first?
<tgm4883> Item 1:  10' interface
<imnichol> That's like the definition of what we should be doing
<callumsaunders1> I don't suppose we have any designers here?
<MrChrisDruif> popey; I think you had a meeting bot lying around?
<MrChrisDruif> Not professional I think callumsaunders1
<tgm4883> well I was thinking this needs to be more of a higher level discussion for prioritizing the items, not an indepth discussion about each one
<tgm4883> unless that is what people want
 * MrChrisDruif has to go I'm afraid
<MrChrisDruif> I hope someone can post the log somewhere so I can have a read back?
<imnichol> I'm down for a high level discussion
<popey> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/22/%23ubuntu-tv.html
<popey> already logging
<MrChrisDruif> Thanks popey =)
* popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-tv to: Welcome to #ubuntu-tv | http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tv | http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV | This channel is logged to http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/
 * MrChrisDruif is off
<tgm4883> I mean, we can discuss how to implement a 10' interface (whether it is built from scratch or something already created) at a later time
<callumsaunders1> bye
<callumsaunders1> ok no problem
<tgm4883> So i think the consensus of the 10' UI was ESSENTIAL, correct?
<callumsaunders1> agreed
<imnichol> Yes
<tgm4883> ok, second item: Watching Media (DVR, Live, Network)
<callumsaunders1> whats tv without it
<tgm4883> also ESSENTIAL
<tgm4883> exactly
<tgm4883> the first two are pretty easy :)
<tgm4883> both ESSENTIAL, the rest of the items we'll probably actually have to discuss
<tgm4883> ok, third item - Plugin support
<tgm4883> currently listed as HIGH
<imnichol> When we say "plugin" what are we talking about?
<imnichol> Like abiltity to extend the software capabilities?
<tgm4883> yes
<tgm4883> similar to the way banshee has plugins
<callumsaunders1> i would rather see apps for that
<tgm4883> The issue with having apps for that, is then you need a way to control that particular app
<callumsaunders1> the way phones work
<callumsaunders1> true.
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, I think that works for phones since you have a common expected input device
<tgm4883> also, phone apps are built for that input device
<callumsaunders1> i dont think plugin should be priority, i think the experience needs to be created first and then devs can add on to that
<callumsaunders1> i get you
<tgm4883> where as other apps aren't going to be built to be controlled by a remote control, smart phone, tablet etc
<tgm4883> well thats the point, devs can't (easily) add on unless there is plugin support
<imnichol> So we're agreed that plugin support is a high priority then?
<callumsaunders1> go for it
<imnichol> Oh wait, sorry, misread what callumsaunders1 was saying
<imnichol> Sorry dude, didn't mean to stomp on you or anything
<callumsaunders1> no problem
<tgm4883> so high or medium?
<callumsaunders1> if it'll promote development then high
<tgm4883> I think it will, at the least, it could allow for third party companies to build plugins for it (eg. netflix, amazon VOD, etc)
<tgm4883> I don't think that is happening without it
<callumsaunders1> good stuff
<tgm4883> ok,  so next is - Cloud and/or server storage (for home grown media)
<tgm4883> currently at HIGH
<callumsaunders1> high
<imnichol> Yeah
<callumsaunders1> we provide this for windows
<tgm4883> ok then
<tgm4883> next - Playback of physical media (USB cd/dvd/bluray drive)
<callumsaunders1> high
<imnichol> high
<imnichol> It's kind of going into set-top box territory
<imnichol> But I think that it's a good added value
<imnichol> Blue-ray would have to work though
<imnichol> And IIRC from earlier in the conversation, that's maybe not happening so fast?
<callumsaunders1> could a manufacturer add blu ray support on their own though?
<callumsaunders1> i want to see a tv where you can just plug in a blur ray drive via usb and the tv handles it
<callumsaunders1> oops, blu ray
<callumsaunders1> blur ray would be a terrible format
<imnichol> lol
<imnichol> But that's a good question:  if the tv runs Ubuntu, is there going to be a way for the manufacturer to add blueray support?
<imnichol> And as a corellary: will it not be a sucky tacked-on pile of crap?
<callumsaunders1> cant we provide it, and just allow the manufacturer to enable it
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, from a technical standpoint, the TV could provide a bluray player and then we could just control it. We would probably do LiveTV the same way
<tgm4883> which is allow the TV to do the heavy lifting, and just control it and have the Ubuntu interface be an overlay
<tgm4883> sorry about the delay, was called  away for a quick issue
<callumsaunders1> sounds good
<tgm4883> Next item - Installable image
<tgm4883> currently HIGH
<callumsaunders1> high
<tgm4883> This goes along the lines of a STB
<callumsaunders1> i was thinking for testing
<tgm4883> I was thinking for installing it on your own hardware, rather than purchasing pre-built systems
<callumsaunders1> both are good
<Wellark> willcooke: can I get one rasperry pi? It has HDMI. :)
<willcooke> And h264 video acceleration
<willcooke> I think the raspberry pi will be a great little video player, but I doubt it's usefulness as a "STB" - just not enough power
<Wellark> I listened the UDS session recording
<Wellark> someone mentioned pandaboard
<Wellark> unfortunately that's pretty much a no-go
<tgm4883> Wellark, have you seen the freescale i.mx53
<Wellark> because they have no predictable lead-time. I tried to get one for myself and gave up after 4 months of waiting and no news on next patch
<Wellark> tgm4883: I know the board, haven't had the opportunity to play with one, yet
<tgm4883> Linaro showed one off at UDS playing 1080p video beautifully
<Wellark> sure, those can do that
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, imnichol next item - Easy configuration of new devices (eg. installing same plugins, mounting same network shares)
<tgm4883> currently HIGH
<imnichol> Yes
<tgm4883> I'm thinking that could be moved to medium
<Wellark> oh, sorry. you have a meeting. didn't realize. I'll shutup now
<callumsaunders1> high yes
<callumsaunders1> join in
<callumsaunders1> Ubuntu One accounts are a prerequisite..
<tgm4883> Wellark, we're just trying to prioritize what we think features should be
<tgm4883> next -Ubuntu One Accounts
<tgm4883> define prerequisite?
<tgm4883> Can I use the TV without Ubuntu One?
<callumsaunders1> it is needed, to be able to use the cloud store
<willcooke> I gotta go, I'm really excited to see things moving so quickly.  Thanks guys, I'll catch you all tomorrow
<Wellark> you should be able. not all TV's are connected to the internet
<tgm4883> bye willcooke
<Wellark> strong ubuntu one integration is very important from day-0 IMHO
<tgm4883> Ok, so for Ubuntu one accounts, it's a high priority then?
<callumsaunders1> I agree you shouldnt NEED an account, but to use cloud storage it is necessary
<callumsaunders1> yes
<tgm4883> everything that would depend on it is currently medium priority
<callumsaunders1> which is why U1 needs to be there first
<Wellark> Ubuntu1 is a cruzial factor of the "Unity Experience"
<tgm4883> ok HIGH then
<tgm4883> moving on
<tgm4883> - Control from portable devices (phones/tablets/remotes)
<tgm4883> currently medium
<Wellark> I would leave it as is
<imnichol> Wellark - any reason?
<tgm4883> we should ammend this to phones/tablets, and make a separate entry for remotes that is ESSENTIAL
<Wellark> you have to provide a standalone remote anyway
<callumsaunders1> yes
<Wellark> which should be very low-tech
<Wellark> (cheap)
<tgm4883> I mean, it is required to have some sort of control, but phone/tablet would be gravy
<callumsaunders1> also i wouldnt rule out controlling the tv from a laptop/pc either
<Wellark> sure
<imnichol> Ok yeah
<Wellark> but no point marking everything HIGH :)
<imnichol> Good point
<tgm4883> added "web interface"
<callumsaunders1> hmm
<tgm4883> agree, which is why I say we make "remotes" essential and leave the rest of this one as medium
<tgm4883> or possibly low
<callumsaunders1> i dont see the uses of it being on the web
<callumsaunders1> baked into regular ubuntu
<callumsaunders1> actually
<callumsaunders1> being able to set it to record something rom the web would be good
<Wellark> sure
<tgm4883> yea
<Wellark> but sounds like low
<callumsaunders1> but it would have to provide a tv guide
<Wellark> basically providing access to the tv guide through browser
<callumsaunders1> anyone from the uk? Sky+ does this
<callumsaunders1> or an app
<callumsaunders1> mobile app
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, mythtv does this as well
<callumsaunders1> great
<callumsaunders1> so easy then
<Wellark> here in finland one of the internet service providers is offering their iptv with applications to iphone and android to setup recordings remotely
<tgm4883> which reminds me, I have a few things to add, but I'll wait until the end
<tgm4883> actually, I have to leave in about 10 minutes
<tgm4883> where did the day go?
<Wellark> west..
<callumsaunders1> you are the glue that holds this meeting together!
<tgm4883> heh
<callumsaunders1> so ...
<callumsaunders1> push media?
<tgm4883> - Push media to/from other Ubuntu devices / Media syncing capabilities (Pause on one device, resume from same spot on another device)
<tgm4883> Currently MEDIUM
<Wellark> I would love to see that HIGH
<Wellark> that's like the whole point of "smart tv"
<callumsaunders1> medium is good, this is and collab devices are the gravy for me
<Wellark> or smart devices
<Wellark> or leave it medium
<tgm4883> I think this goes hand in hand with remote controls
<tgm4883> and probably requires U1 integration
<tgm4883> remote controls being phone/tablet/PC
<callumsaunders1> U1 would make managing allowed devices easier
<tgm4883> HIGH then?
<imnichol> Yeah
<imnichol> That's my belif
<callumsaunders1> ok
<tgm4883> ok
<imnichol> Meeting time, peace out everyone
<tgm4883> - Collaborate with other Ubuntu devices (context: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-phone/msg00006.html )
<tgm4883> bye imnichol
<callumsaunders1> byee
<Wellark> I have to go to put my son to bed.
<Wellark> It's a warzone here :/
<callumsaunders1> shall we mark a point on etherpad and get back to it tomorrow?
<tgm4883> callumsaunders1, sounds good to me
<callumsaunders1> because i cant do this on my own! lol
<tgm4883> ok, marked on the etherpad
<callumsaunders1> great
<tgm4883> I'm assuming this thing lives on for awhile
<callumsaunders1> is there a person who owns the pad?
<tgm4883> popey^^
<callumsaunders1> great
<popey> nobody owns the pad
<popey> daviey runs the server it's on
<popey> but it's like the wiki, it's a community resource.
<MrChrisDruif> (UGT) Morning
<MrChrisDruif> We're going to continue prioritizing tomorrow?
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; ?
<tgm4883> MrChrisDruif, yes, we ran out of time
<MrChrisDruif> What time?
<tgm4883> heh, that wasn't decided. I'd assume about 9:00 AM PST, although it seems I have a meeting at that time
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<MrChrisDruif> 17:00 UTC?
<MrChrisDruif> Right after the Weekly Ubuntu Foundations Meeting?
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; ^
<tgm4883> heh, I guess so
<MrChrisDruif> Shall I put it on real quick and announce it on the mailing-list?
<MrChrisDruif> Why do I forget to mention you every time tgm4883 ? =)
<MrChrisDruif> For a weekly meeting we could best move it to Monday on the same time, right after the Ubuntu Friendly meeting (if we want to use #ubuntu-meeting, which is preferred I think) tgm4883 =)
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; can we get this sorted? I need to go to bed =P
<MrChrisDruif> Alarm goes in about 5,5 hours
<MrChrisDruif> =P
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; PING!
<MrChrisDruif> <_<"
<MrChrisDruif> Anyone? Wellark ? popey ?
<MrChrisDruif> Well, it has to be an unannounced meeting then...
#ubuntu-tv 2011-11-23
<dmj726> morning willcooke
<willcooke> afternoon ;)
<willcooke> how's it going?
<dmj726> fine, I figured I'd let you know I was the one proposing the Control from portable devices feature, though I wasn't available on irc during the discussion yesterday
<dmj726> So if you guys need any explanation about it, I'm available today :)
<brk0_0> Escuse me...Can anyone tell me if the meeting will be here?
<MrChrisDruif> Thanks willcooke =)
<willcooke> :)
<MrChrisDruif> So, in about 1,5 hours will do that priority meeting =)
<MrChrisDruif> (At least, that's the plan)
<MrChrisDruif> I see some more people then yesterday?
<MrChrisDruif> Who's already around for the meeting?
<dmj726> MrChrisDruif: me :)
<dmj726> well I was here before sorta
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, I saw on the log
<MrChrisDruif> You proposed the..
<MrChrisDruif> ..control from portable devices
<MrChrisDruif> Apparently, but I don't think it really needs explaining, because it's pretty explanatory ;-)
<dmj726> yeah, basically control via mobile devices, but it's also key to allowing applications to run well across all devices
<MrChrisDruif> How do you mean?
<dmj726> so video editing project runs on several tablets and the TV simultaneously
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh, like that =)
<dmj726> Yep, Novacut really wants to make that possible
<dmj726> we suspect it will also be very good for other apps
<MrChrisDruif> But that is just one project, we shouldn't focus into one that much I think
<dmj726> MrChrisDruif: I'm not saying that Novacut should be tied in too much here
<MrChrisDruif> =)
<dmj726> Just demonstrating that building the right kind of flexibility into the system will let applications like that make UTV a better experience
<callumsaunders1> I don't think any other platform can offer productivity on that sort of multidevice level
<MrChrisDruif> Well, if you noted the etherpad, we have plugin-system in the high segment =)
<dmj726> MrChrisDruif: Yes, though I'm wondering really what is meant by "plugin"
<MrChrisDruif> dmj726; it could be "anything" right now. It's not defined at all in this stage
<dmj726> I would guess that the right approach is to allow "plugins" to certain systems, perhaps via an api, plus a way to run normal applications in fullscreen mode.
<MrChrisDruif> Plugins can have all sorts of functions in UTV
<willcooke> Oh, how about:  We publish a "remote control input" standard over HTTP and then people could use it in new and exciting ways
<MrChrisDruif> Video recording, gaming, I-don't-really-care-what-other-functions-you-can-think-of ;-)
<willcooke> In fact, let's not limit it to remote control
<willcooke> kenvandine in the house!  Hey dude!
<MrChrisDruif> And he is special?
<dmj726> willcooke: if we have some standard methods for input over http, that sounds good
<kenvandine> yo willcooke!
<dmj726> Actually very similar to how Novacut realtime collaboration works
<dmj726> local databases on both devices sync in realtime
<willcooke> dmj726, we could start with "Remote Control" functionality - that way people can write apps on any device
<dmj726> to input to the TV you would just have the tablet make changes in the database
<kenvandine> what i really want to see is state syncing for media between devices
<callumsaunders1> thats on the list
<dmj726> willcooke: yes, "remote control" using this system is a good way to start and provide general input
<kenvandine> so watching something on my TV (online), pause it... whip out my tablet and pick up the playback :)
<MrChrisDruif> willcooke; remote control (at least for remotes) is in essential ;-)
<willcooke> kenvandine, yes- that will be awesome.
<willcooke> dmj726, "just have the tablet make changes in the database" sounds painful.  API would make more sense?
<dmj726> willcooke: Then if applications want more, they can use the same system for their own use
<kenvandine> and it should be content agnostic... if we can work that out
<kenvandine> same for music, etc
<dmj726> willcooke: this would be a sort of REST API
<willcooke> dmj726, that sounds good
<callumsaunders1> dmj726, are you the novacut guy?
<dmj726> So the client GUI, tells the local database what changes to make
<dmj726> Then the changes replicate automatically to the other databases
<dmj726> The software on the TV sees the change and behaves accordingly
<dmj726> callumsaunders1: I'm one of them.
<MrChrisDruif> I might be a brake around here, but I think it's better to first get things prioritized?
<dmj726> It sounds complicated but it actually helps simplify development in many ways.
<willcooke> Sounds like we need U1DB for that
<dmj726> willcooke: Yes, though U1DB currently doesn't do realtime sync
<dmj726> although I suspect they would be likely to add it if Ubuntu TV needed it.
<dmj726> U1DB is also document oriented as well, which is very good for this sort of thing
<willcooke> popey, are you chan op?
<popey> i am
<aquarius> o/ willcooke
<dmj726> MrChrisDruif: I think there's probably place to get an overall feel for the platform even without a priority list :)
<dmj726> where we want to go and do and all that
<willcooke> aquarius, tell us about how we can sync U1DB quickly between multiple devices
<willcooke> we want to sync bookmarks etc between devices
<aquarius> does "quickly" mean "each sync does not take very long", or "we can have a syncing thing up and running a short time from today"?
<dmj726> quickly as in fairly real time, yes?
<aquarius> ah, right. I should be clear that u1db is early in development right now.
<aquarius> Syncs are commanded by the application that's using the database
<aquarius> so if you want to fire off a sync every time a bookmark is written, you can do so
<dmj726> aquarius: So can one setup U1DB to automatically sync databases for each change?
<aquarius> well... doing a sync is just another u1db method. dmj726, are you a coder?
<dmj726> dmj726: yep, with Novacut, mostly on the gstreamer side though
<aquarius> dmj726, aha! then I've met you, I believe :P
<dmj726> First day of UDS?
<aquarius> ok, so you write a document to a u1db with something like db.put_doc(docid, document)
<aquarius> so there's nothing stopping your "save a doc" method doing "db.put_doc(docid, document); db.sync(server_location)" if you want
 * willcooke loves it when people come together 
<dmj726> aquarius: Are there any performance issues with the way U1DB syncs that would be an issue with doing many syncs?
<willcooke> Does everyone who writes code know everyone else who writes code?!
<aquarius> difficult to answer that question right now because the server implementation is still under discussion, but let me think about it for two mins :)
<aquarius> willcooke, yep. We all know one another. It is witchcraft
<dmj726> will U1DB provide anything like _rev in couchdb?
<aquarius> yep, there are revisions
<dmj726> willcooke: well, more of a general uttering incantations into a glowing talisman thing really
<willcooke> XD
<dmj726> so it sounds like U1DB could be used to provide input to the TV and feedback to tablets
<willcooke> sweet
<aquarius> yeah. Think of it as like couchdb but not requiring a separate server to be run, from one perspective
<aquarius> I mean, if you're writing a lot of docs, and you sync after every write, you'll be hammering the server
<aquarius> but maybe that's reasonable
<aquarius> the other alternative is u1 file sync, which is instantaneous
<dmj726> I would guess we should only write the docs that are changed
<aquarius> sync will only sync changed docs
<aquarius> I don't know what you're talking about using u1db *for* here, though :)
<dmj726> aquarius: mainly input from users for controlling the TV I believe
<aquarius> erm... how does input need a database?
<dmj726> plus applications interfacing between devices
<popey> willcooke: did you need something oppy?
<aquarius> I press the "left" button on a remote; a thing moves left. where's there a DB in this? :)
<popey> willcooke: I'll add you if you like?
<aquarius> applications interfacing between devices, sure :)
<dmj726> aquarius: let me link you to a mailing list
<willcooke> popey, nah I was trying to invite aq, but we're all sorted
<popey> gotcha
<dmj726> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-tv/msg00005.html
<dmj726> aquarius: ^^
<aquarius> riiiight.
<aquarius> if you want actual real-time stuff like that, the way to do it is probably not to write locally and then sync every time. You can write direct to the server
<dmj726> so it's about controlling the TV from tablets and phones and such
<dmj726> so write direct to the server for input, and write locally with sync for collaborative stuff
<aquarius> that's sorta what I'm thinking. If you want to control a remote device from here in realtime, then you want a permanently-open communications channel, which is not what u1db is.
<popey> avahi âº
<aquarius> and trying to trick up u1db into being a permanently-open comms channel will just cause you misery :) This is why jabber exists :)
<popey> heh, jabber server in your telly
<willcooke> good idea
<willcooke> you could message it to say record xyz
<aquarius> all this assumes they're on the same network, of course
<dmj726> so you would send a message to the DB on the server via jabber?  or am I being silly
<willcooke> ahh, yes
<aquarius> jabber can send all kinds of messages, so it's good at realtime stuff
<popey> you could chat with the telly
<popey> "Was eastenders any good on tuesday?"
<popey> "BARB Ratings for Eastenders on tuesday put it ahead of I'm A Celebrity"
<aquarius> check out Volity for an example of using jabber as a realtime comms channel -- they have a multiplayer games server which uses jabber as the comms protocol. It's not just for IM chat
<popey> you could do video chat inside the house, webcam on every telly
<popey> <kitchen> "Hey bob, your dinner is ready"
<dmj726> so jabber would be better than using a REST API?
<aquarius> the question is: why is this stuff going into a database on both the device and the tv?
<aquarius> if I'm controlling the tv to show people a youtube video, say... why do I need to record forever on both the tv and my phone that I did that?
<aquarius> it's just an RPC, right?
<tgm4883> So i'm probably not going to be available for the meeting today
<dmj726> aquarius: that's true
<tgm4883> I have to give two back to back interviews today starting in 20 minutes
<dmj726> Though it may sometimes be important to model the state of the system
<tgm4883> I'm fine with the list so far, and I'm responding to the email from willcooke right now
<dmj726> So if the local device can for instance know that the TV is in "Play" mode, it can offer more intelligent interface on the client
<aquarius> dmj726, yeah, there's value in recording this stuff in a DB somewhere, but I can't see why you wuoldn't just have RPC from phone to TV and then have the TV stash away logs of commands (in a DB, or whatever)
<willcooke> sounds like the best option
<aquarius> dmj726, oooh, trying to keep the local device permanently in sync with what mode the TV is in is a real-time collaboration problem. At that point you're building World of Warcraft, and it ain't easy. If you're on the LAN, it's a lot easier to request http://tv/states/ and have it return {"state": "play"} :-)
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; too bad you can't come. Good luck with the interviews =)
<dmj726> Well, not nearly so intensive as WoW I wouldn't think, though not the easiest
<dmj726> aquarius: but then wouldn't the device have to keep pinging http://tv/states?
<aquarius> well, I'd make that a comet endpoint, but yeah
<aquarius> so you wouldn't ping it; you'd hang on it
<dmj726> so whenever something needs it, you wait for it to respond?
<aquarius> well, if you're hanging on it, then you get told whenever it changes
<dmj726> ah, okay, that hang
<dmj726> aquarius: Hmm, so you would requests http://tv/states/ parse the data, present it.  Then when the user does something, send a jabber message to the TV, which then changes the contents of http://tv/states
<MrChrisDruif> I think that is how you should think of it
<aquarius> the question is whether you need lots of two-way realtime communication between device and tv
<aquarius> if you do, then use jabber for it
<aquarius> if it's mainly one-way (device sends a command, tv obeys) and occasionally the other way (tv changes something, device needs to know about it) then do it over http with a couple of hang-on-this endpoints on the tv
<aquarius> you shouldn't need both
<MrChrisDruif> Two-way. I don't know. It could for faster letting the device know that a change has happened
<MrChrisDruif> And the TV ALSO writes it to http://tv/states/
<aquarius> the tv doesn't need to write it there, though, if it's sending jabber messages to everyone
<aquarius> no-one will ever read the endpoint
<MrChrisDruif> It could request the current state with jabber I think?
<dmj726> Authentication/pairing is also important to consider here
<erkan^> ubuntu-tv, MrChrisDruif ?
<MrChrisDruif> Yup
<erkan^> wat doet men precies?
<MrChrisDruif> I was announced with UDS-P (the previous one)
<MrChrisDruif> erkan^; This is an international channel, please use English =)
<erkan^> sorry, I will speak English language only :P
<MrChrisDruif> Alright everyone, shall we start the "meeting"?
<dmj726> sure
<IAmNotThatGuy> o/
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, for who has missed it, here is the link to the feature list we want to get implemented: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: want a meeting bot?
<IAmNotThatGuy> AlanBell, sure
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; could be usefull
<MrChrisDruif> -l
<AlanBell> done :)
<IAmNotThatGuy> MrChrisDruif, #startmeeting
<MrChrisDruif> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Nov 23 17:03:18 2011 UTC.  The chair is MrChrisDruif. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<MrChrisDruif> Welcome everyone, now we get "official"
<IAmNotThatGuy> Raise your hands for attendance
<IAmNotThatGuy> o/
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
<dmj726> o/
<AlanBell> o/
<MrChrisDruif> o/
<popey> o/
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883 is unfortunately missing because of two interview back-to-back
<popey> oh, is the meeting actually now?
<MrChrisDruif> Yup
<popey> you're not just testing the bot?
<IAmNotThatGuy> popey, lol yep
<popey> oh, sorry
<popey> âº
<MrChrisDruif> #link http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/UbuntuTV
<MrChrisDruif> (Quiet link acceptance?)
<MrChrisDruif> And another one
<MrChrisDruif> #link http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/11/22/%23ubuntu-tv.html
<MrChrisDruif> The first link is to the document we are about the further discuss. To know what has been discussed already, please look in the second link
<IAmNotThatGuy> Okay. Carryon
<MrChrisDruif> #topic Prioritizing the list
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: yeah, #link doesn't do a massive amount right now, there is a bug about that
<MrChrisDruif> <_<"
<MrChrisDruif> It's still useful to mention the links =)
<AlanBell> yes
<MrChrisDruif> We were going down the list from top to bottom and we got to Collaboration with Ubuntu devices
<MrChrisDruif> Does everybody understand the different sections? (They are pretty explanatory if you ask me)
<Wellark> hi! sorry for being late!
<MrChrisDruif> Welcome Wellark
<dmj726> Personally I think collaboration is high importance
<dmj726> It could be a pretty key differentiator for Ubuntu devices
<IAmNotThatGuy> +1
<MrChrisDruif> I'm not sure to put it in the high section.
<dmj726> Mark seems fairly keen on the idea too
<Wellark> yes, +1
<callumsaunders1> i agree with with dmj726
<callumsaunders1> high
<Wellark> as I've understood the "Unity Experience" is also largely about collaboration
<IAmNotThatGuy> MrChrisDruif, Any reasons for that thought?
<MrChrisDruif> Well, I think it might be a very good feature to have, I do think we shouldn't put it in the high because I don't know how many devs we will have and we can't have it all in high
<dmj726> Well, I think it's important to design with it in mind than to tack it on after all other things are implemented
<Wellark> well, I think the rest can be other than "high" :)
<Wellark> but collaboration between devices as high
<MrChrisDruif> Wellark; How do you mean? The things that are now in high you mean?
<Wellark> I mean the uncategorized ones
<MrChrisDruif> Okay, noted
<Wellark> there are only two left after this one
<Wellark> the high priority list seems to be pretty good package
<dmj726> So collaboration in High?
<callumsaunders1> high
<Wellark> +1
<MrChrisDruif> Btw I had a note added after the meeting about the previous item
<IAmNotThatGuy> But you should consider what MrChrisDruif is talking about. Starting it with less number of developers will also lead to some wrong tracks and delay in work
<dmj726> We should try to figure out how many developers the project really has.
<MrChrisDruif> That is certainly something to keep in mind, but it's prospected to not have anything very functional until 13.04 or something
<dmj726> It's probably more important to get it right than get it done quick and have to backtrack
<callumsaunders1> +1
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
<Wellark> I don't feel the HIGH section is too cumbersome
<IAmNotThatGuy> dmj726, True. But if you ask me, then I will say "What about finding the right developers be the high priority job? =]"
<AlanBell> is there a hardware reference specification?
<Wellark> anyway the items in high section have to be prioritized
<dmj726> So we should decide what the core functionality needs to be for a compelling offering, and then work toward that.
<AlanBell> is it ARM or Atom for example?
<callumsaunders1> all of it. except home automation
<MrChrisDruif> dmj726; that was the main reasoning in the different sections
<AlanBell> what screen resolution? full HD?
<callumsaunders1> that list should be ubuntu tv 1.0
<popey> 0.00001
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, popey
<IAmNotThatGuy> popey +1000 ;D
<dmj726> also some things are easier to bolt on after the fact and others are much harder to change once you've gone far
<MrChrisDruif> What is absolutely required, is essential
<MrChrisDruif> That's why the plugin system is in high
<MrChrisDruif> It's not necessary, but it's a very useful way to add functionality later on
<dmj726> So essential is "what do we need for a working TV"
<MrChrisDruif> Yup
<MrChrisDruif> High is the "cool" system
<IAmNotThatGuy> We can even plan how it should be and can keep it for the next version (If needed)
<MrChrisDruif> Medium is the "awesome" system
<dmj726> high is "what do we need for a device that people will want beyond an ordinary tv"
<dmj726> yeah
<MrChrisDruif> And low is the "ICan'tDescribeThisInWords" system
<dmj726> for reference I suspect that control from portable devices will be very easy once we have Collaborate with other Ubuntu devices, just a little work on top of that framework
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, that's why we initially put it in medium
<dmj726> and Push media to/from other Ubuntu devices / Media syncing capabilities would also fit within the framework
<dmj726> so implement collaboration framework and the other two are specific applications thereof
<MrChrisDruif> I tend to agree on that (I'm not a dev)
<dmj726> yeah, that sounds good
<dmj726> so we need the collaboration framework because that lets other devs make the TV very cool
<callumsaunders1> this needs to be in tablet & phone & pc aswell
<dmj726> yes, it should be everywhere
<MrChrisDruif> So either all those should be in high OR in medium, and if we'd have to call it now I'd say high (seeing the functionality of collaboration with tablet/phones)
<dmj726> okay
<MrChrisDruif> Everyone agrees on that?
<callumsaunders1> sure
<Wellark> sure
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, I'll move it up (and rephrase it after the meeting)
<IAmNotThatGuy> okies
<MrChrisDruif> I've put a note in the last one from the high (now at least) about collaboration with Ubuntu Phone & Tablet
<MrChrisDruif> I think we should also let them in on the "action" and pitch in where it's logical
<dmj726> yeah
<MrChrisDruif> (Luckily I've noticed that a lot from #ubuntu-phone & #ubuntu-tablet are already here)
<MrChrisDruif> But we still should give a shout-out to them on their mailing-lists
<dmj726> Also, input from other devices greatly enhances our 10' UX capabilities
<dmj726> (think typing on tablet vs typical TV keyboards for search)
<callumsaunders1> its just gravy
<MrChrisDruif> True that (or even a laptop =) )
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, shall we continue down the line?
<dmj726> maybe gravy, but definitely a pain point on traditional ui
<dmj726> yep
<IAmNotThatGuy> k
<dmj726> moving on
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, next one is: Sharing media with friends
<callumsaunders1> it's a good way to get word out
<MrChrisDruif> With social media, think of youtube like/dislike, facebook, twitter, diaspora, what-have-you?
<dmj726> I think this sounds like a great plugin if done right
<callumsaunders1> i would say low
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed, but now it's about prioritizing =)
<Wellark> low +1
<MrChrisDruif> I would say medium as low is really "awful" things like home automation, which might even be more for server than tv
<dmj726> yeah, higher than home automation, but not high
<MrChrisDruif> But home automation should have a friendly shell for which a TV might be a good medium
<MrChrisDruif> So medium is good I think
<callumsaunders1> Home automation would be a good app for a tv
<MrChrisDruif> +1 on that callumsaunders1
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, next is Purchasing media
<callumsaunders1> this would mostly be web interfaces for stores?
<MrChrisDruif> Yes, I would think so. Use case: search for a movie > if it is available for purchase it gets highlighted in the search results
<MrChrisDruif> I think of VOD (in high quality of course)
<callumsaunders1> youtube do movies now, is that part of their api?
 * MrChrisDruif doesn't know, nor care at this moment
<callumsaunders1> lol ok
<MrChrisDruif> Is it in the right location in medium?
<callumsaunders1> i would say medium
<MrChrisDruif> +1 on that
<MrChrisDruif> First a good basis/rich system, then we can think about financial stuff like buying content
<MrChrisDruif> So medium it is?
<MrChrisDruif> Silence says it all I think, moving on =)
<MrChrisDruif> Next has already been done I think: Home automation
<MrChrisDruif> Anyone disagreeing with the Low priority?
<callumsaunders1> not even sure it should be there at all
<MrChrisDruif> That's the advantage of low priority, we can always decide to drop it all together in a later stage, but for now I'd say keep it in =)
<MrChrisDruif> If Ubuntu want a complete system, then home automation should get a place in there. For the front-end I think it's a good idea to have it on TV
<MrChrisDruif> Any other comments?
<callumsaunders1> im happy
<MrChrisDruif> Good to hear =)
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, moving on
<MrChrisDruif> There has been an addition since yesterday: TV Guide
<MrChrisDruif> I think this one falls under Watching Media in Essential
<MrChrisDruif> Otherwise it could be easily implemented with the plugin system; devs what do you think?
<MrChrisDruif> dmj726? popey? IAmNotThatGuy? Others?
 * AlanBell thinks mythbuntu does all of this already
<AlanBell> it needs a unity theme
<AlanBell> with lancher and lens type gui
<AlanBell> then everything is either already done, or a mythtv plugin
<AlanBell> already has the 10' /3m user interface
<IAmNotThatGuy> If we need some changes, then we can work on that plugin
<AlanBell> TV guide is there, weather, home automation stuff like that
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; I think it was tgm4883 that already commented that we should try to use current software solutions
<AlanBell> so a chunky launcher bar on the left selecting live tv, recorded stuff, playback of DVDs (which would already pop up in the launcher)
<AlanBell> lens for current live channels
<MrChrisDruif> So if Mythbuntu already fits the bill, that would save a lot of effort
<AlanBell> however, what are we targetting?
<MrChrisDruif> Hardware-wise you mean?
<AlanBell> what is the hardware platform? does the OEM team have a customer hardware specification in mind?
<AlanBell> hardware, broadband connectivity, screen resolution, screen size etc
<AlanBell> is this for a settop box or something integrated in TVs?
<MrChrisDruif> Do we even have a OEM team? =/
<AlanBell> yes, canonical has an OEM team
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, then we haven't spoken to them about that
<tgm4883> Back for 2 minutes before the next interview
<AlanBell> were there concept drawings done for unity on tv when unity was being designed?
<MrChrisDruif> tgm4883; I wanted to close up, but if you have anything to say, do so =)
<tgm4883> looks good, the TV guide data is necessary for any DVR type functionality
<tgm4883> AlanBell, Mythbuntu does fit the bill for a lot of this, but I think we need to change the frontend
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; any suggestions for what we should do next? Speak to which teams, to get an idea of what kind of concept canonical already has envisioned for Ubuntu TV?
<tgm4883> I don't think the MythTV frontend is capable/flashy enough for what we want
<tgm4883> I suggested XBMC
<AlanBell> fine, whichever
<tgm4883> and time for interview #2
<AlanBell> we could contribute improvements upstream for one or the other
<MrChrisDruif> Indeed
<imnichol> Hey everyone, that meeting still happening?
<AlanBell> is it for ARM or x86?
<MrChrisDruif> Does anybody feel for inquiring for this information?
 * popey returns
<MrChrisDruif> And besides ARM or x86; settop-box or integrated
<popey> both and both
<popey> :D
<popey> there, that was easy
<MrChrisDruif> Probably
<popey> I dont think we're far enough down the line to make decisions about hardware platforms
<AlanBell> full HD?
<popey> yes
<popey> where full = 1080p
<AlanBell> yup
<AlanBell> that makes a huge difference in gui design
<popey> yeah, needs a massive interface
<popey> big fonts, big icons/pictures
<popey> cover art etc
<AlanBell> and crisp, svg all the way
<MrChrisDruif> That's the idea of 10' interface, right?
<popey> 17:58:10 < MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; any suggestions for what we should do next? Speak to which teams, to get an idea of what kind of concept canonical already has envisioned for Ubuntu TV?
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, I'm wasted. Shall we call it a day?
<popey> Design Team and Product Strategy
<MrChrisDruif> Thanks popey =)
<popey> (are who you might want to speak to)
<imnichol> Are we going to return to the idea of home automation at all?
<imnichol> Or did I miss that?
<popey> willcooke and myself both work in product strategy
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; we will keep it low for now =)
<popey> and the design team live in #ubuntu-design
<imnichol> Ok cool.  I've got some concerns about the right place for it, but I'll register them later
<popey> I think for a first run the main focus should be "choosing video to play" and "playing video" âº
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; read the logs afterwards
<popey> where that content comes from who knows, how we play it, who knows..
<imnichol> MrChrisDruif: reading them now.
<MrChrisDruif> popey; AlanBell; others; shall I #endmeeting ?
<AlanBell> fine by me
<IAmNotThatGuy> yea
<imnichol> yup
<MrChrisDruif> Alright
<MrChrisDruif> Thanks everyone for showing up and raising your voice =)
<MrChrisDruif> #endmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Nov 23 18:08:46 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-tv/2011/ubuntu-tv.2011-11-23-17.03.moin.txt
<MrChrisDruif> Anyone up for putting it on the weekend and mailing list?
<MrChrisDruif> I forgot to discuss weekly meeting, but I'll put that on the mailing list myself
<IAmNotThatGuy> ML link please
<IAmNotThatGuy> launchpad link of the team will be a better one ;]
<MrChrisDruif> IAmNotThatGuy; ubuntu-tv@lists.launchpad.net ?
<MrChrisDruif> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tv
<MrChrisDruif> See topic@!
<IAmNotThatGuy> thanks man! /me was busy with the other machine
<MrChrisDruif> Anyone wanting to put it on the wiki?
<MrChrisDruif> Not all at once please...
<MrChrisDruif> =(
<IAmNotThatGuy> I can make a post of this meeting and share it to my friends but I am not good with meeting logging :[
<MrChrisDruif> It's not really though IAmNotThatGuy
<MrChrisDruif> Where it our wiki actually?
<IAmNotThatGuy> MrChrisDruif, Yeah! I know. But I am preparing for Lubuntu meeting :[
<IAmNotThatGuy> is* :P
<MrChrisDruif> Good going, I might also attend, just to hang around
<MrChrisDruif> And be obnoxious? ;-)
<IAmNotThatGuy> I think there is no wiki yet
<IAmNotThatGuy> for TV
<MrChrisDruif> =(
<MrChrisDruif> Maybe we could just send the link meetingology send us? Saves us the trouble I would think =)
<MrChrisDruif> I don't want to setup an entire wiki area right now, just to put up meeting notes
<IAmNotThatGuy> lol
<MrChrisDruif> I'll send the link to the mailing list and MAYBE put it up later on the wiki
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, 2 mails out
<MrChrisDruif> Thanks IAmNotThatGuy for your email response =)
<M0hi> MrChrisDruif, I'm here :P
<MrChrisDruif> M0hi; ;-)
<M0hi> MrChrisDruif, running another machine for other works which are tbd =]
<M0hi> MrChrisDruif, we need some branding for the teams
<M0hi> team*
<MrChrisDruif> Well teams, also tablet and phone ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> But that are concerns for there ;-)
<M0hi> Hmmm
<M0hi> I'veposted it in my site. try telling your friends to do the same
 * MrChrisDruif is off TTYL
<AlanBell> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=469397
<AlanBell> xbmc isn't in debian yet, and that is the ITP bug report
<tgm4883> AlanBell, I've looked through that before and it appears that  Andres Mejia is working to fix any of the issues (and most/all of them were fixed as of the latest entry)
<tgm4883> I'm also unsure how well XBMC would work on the ARM platform, as I've not tested it myself and I've heard conflicting reports
<AlanBell> the latest entry from Andres Mejia was a year ago
<tgm4883> hmm, so it is. I apparently cannot read :)
<tgm4883> Might be worth reaching out to him and find the current status/road block
<AlanBell> so why is xbmc considered better than mythtv?
<tgm4883> AlanBell, regarding your earlier comments about Mythbuntu (since I now have more time), I think as a DVR backend that it would work great, but for the scope of this project since TV recording isn't a requirement MythTV might not fit the bill. Also, the MythTV frontend looks a bit dated and is missing some of the functionality that XBMC has (likely because XBMC has more developers)
<tgm4883> Full disclosure, I'm a Mythbuntu developer
<AlanBell> ok, I ask because I don't know much about this area at all :)
<AlanBell> what is the scope of this project?
<tgm4883> I believe it is to be a more open apple tv type device
<tgm4883> I think recording needs to be an option, but not required
<AlanBell> ok
<tgm4883> AlanBell, are you on the mailing list? There has been some good discussion there regarding scope
<AlanBell> ok, read the archives now
<dmj726> Hmm...I would think recording should be fairly central if there is available storage
<AlanBell> maybe, maybe not
<dmj726> Why would recording not be a desirable feature these days?
<AlanBell> if your storage is in the cloud and you have loadsa bandwidth
<dmj726> but wouldn't that just mean recording to the cloud?
<AlanBell> dunno, maybe the cloud records it for you and streams it to you as required
<AlanBell> maybe the cloud is a box in your house with storage
<dmj726> well, the TV would record it to whatever media is available
<AlanBell> anyhow, I think listing specific features is a bit of an odd place to start
<dmj726> AlanBell: I'd agree with that statement
<dmj726> just saying it seems like an obvious use case: UbuntuTV acts as a PVR
<AlanBell> yeah, I have nothing against it :)
<dmj726> Can pretty much guarantee that an Ubuntu TV that could do scheduled recording would be attractive for my parents house
<AlanBell> so the vision for this project is Unity on a telly
<dmj726> Yeah, I can see Unity working really well if adapted for arrow key interface
<AlanBell> there has been very little discussion of unity so far
<AlanBell> I think the starting point for this project is to figure out what the best platform is for implementing Unity on a telly
<dmj726> AlanBell: I'm thinking that people are still trying to see the big picture of what this thing is trying to be
<dmj726> Basically, you're talking about the how, whereas discussion of features is more of the why
<dmj726> both are important
<dmj726> and knowing the use cases makes how we use Unity more clear
<imnichol> We were using the etherpad yesterday to try to figure out what we're trying to do
<imnichol> I think the data's still up there
<imnichol> Yup it is
<dmj726> imnichol: Yeah, I think that's a useful document to gauge what we need to make a unity-centric system do
<imnichol> Although now that i look at it, it still suffers from "how do we do this" syndrome
<imnichol> When we really need more "what are we doing"
<AlanBell> yeah, but we are not going to build a new media centre
<AlanBell> we can integrate and distribute one
<dmj726> I don't want Yet-Another-Media-Center
<imnichol> Exactly
<imnichol> What *do* we want?
<AlanBell> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/820 that is the starting point really
<dmj726> What I want is something that is a TV and can replace a media center, but provides a great platform for social/collaborative experiences.
<imnichol> brb
<dmj726> The PC, the phone, and the tablet are the personal screens, while the TV is the shared screen that connects them.
<dmj726> The TV should be simple for passive use like watching TV, and seamless for active use (think how people use video game consoles)
<AlanBell> http://musl1m.deviantart.com/art/My-Ubuntu-Phone-267986471
<AlanBell> that is a reasonable stab at a concept for unity on a phone
<dmj726> yeah
<dmj726> I saw a nice one on the ayatana list too
<AlanBell> I think there should be some sketches of unity on a telly
<dmj726> AlanBell: Have you used or seen Maemo or Meego?
<dmj726> for phones they got multitasking spot on
<AlanBell> not used them, seen screenshots
<dmj726> and their menus worked well too
<dmj726> Obviously not quite right for a TV
<dmj726> do we have anyone in the channel to do some sketches
<dmj726> anything I do would just get the gist of it, not be pretty
<dmj726> It definitely needs to autohide both launcher and panel
<dmj726> and I'm not entirely sure the panel is a good idea in its current form
<AlanBell> yeah, I don't think the panel quite fits
<AlanBell> the clock might sometimes
<AlanBell> and things should probably always be fullscreen
<AlanBell> so I think we should figure out the visual design of it, then figure out what media centre can do that, then find out what features or applications that does
<AlanBell> so if it has a weather app then yay, we get a weather icon in the launcher
<AlanBell> if it has games/home control/etc. they go in the launcher, if not then we don't have them
<AlanBell> if it does recording of live tv, then awesome, we get that
<AlanBell> if it doesn't right now then we don't have that until someone (possibly canonical) contribute such code upstream
<dmj726> Well, I suspect we'll have to write a fair amount of front end code
<dmj726> So Unity and our interface scheme plus whatever media center
<AlanBell> front end and integration code, yes
<dmj726> tgm4883: Do myth and xbmc allow themselves to play nice with a composited window manager?
<AlanBell> and depending on the media centre there might be opportunities to fit in other ubuntuish stuff like a U1 file browser or streaming from U1 thing
<dmj726> I think with launcher we can handle multiple apps fairly well
<tgm4883> dmj726, mythtv does not play well with compiz unless you turn on legacy support, I'm unsure of how xbmc handles it
<AlanBell> but take a broad view of what "unity" is
<AlanBell> if it looks like unity then it is unity :)
<dmj726> so if our media center plays well as being one window with several others
<popey> +1
<tgm4883> I don't think Unity desktop really fits into a media center
<tgm4883> unless you are discussing theming a 10' UI to look like Unity, then maybe it works
<dmj726> then we can have someone switch to another fullscreen task
<popey> it doesnt have to look exactly like current unity
<tgm4883> I still disagree with that though
<AlanBell> it has to have a launcher on the left with buttons on it
<dmj726> tgm4883: does myth play well with any window manager
<AlanBell> doesn't have to be NUX or Qt or anything like that
<dmj726> or does it need to be the root window
<calciumx> :)
<tgm4883> dmj726, mythtv runs fine on any window manager, you can run it with compiz you will just see the gnome panels
<tgm4883> or the top panel in unity (not sure about the launch bar)
<tgm4883> Mythbuntu uses XFCE
<dmj726> tgm4883: ah, that's fine then
<popey> did you see the ask mark session earlier?
<dmj726> so we just slide any unity UI elements out of the way when not in use
<tgm4883> dmj726, AlanBell so are you guys discussing having a 10' UI that launches other applications for video/music/etc?
<dmj726> tgm4883: yes
<tgm4883> that is a bad idea IMO
<dmj726> one of (probably the main one) being the media center ui
<tgm4883> how do I control banshee and totem with a IR remote control?
<tgm4883> Not to mention it looks crap when switching between applications
<dmj726> tgm4883: We don't launch apps made for desktop
<tgm4883> dmj726, so what apps do we launch then?
<dmj726> all of this would be 10' centric
<AlanBell> launch things that are designed to work with a media centre framework
<tgm4883> so apps that we develop specifically for this media center?
<dmj726> tgm4883: yes
<dmj726> us and third parties
<imnichol> Does anyone have a link to a definition of "10' UI"?
<tgm4883> dmj726, AlanBell so plugin support then :)
<AlanBell> which is already there, yes
<dmj726> imnichol: A UI that can be used from across the room
<imnichol> I've seen it thrown around a lot and I'm not exactly sure what it means
<tgm4883> imnichol, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10-foot_user_interface
<AlanBell> imnichol: 10' means about 3 meters
<imnichol> Well then I don't see how there are any problems with Unity as a 10'UI
<imnichol> Except the top panel
<imnichol> Which we've discussed removing
<AlanBell> Americans and their silly measurements
<tgm4883> There is a lot of wasted space
<dmj726> imnichol: you also can't count on mouse and keyboard always with a 10' UI
<AlanBell> a big chunky unity launcher
<popey> i dont think anyone would run banshee on their telly
<tgm4883> dmj726, imnichol in fact, count on not having either
<imnichol> FWIW, the Unity launcher is hidden unless you call it up
<dmj726> you might only have the equivalent of a dpad and enter key
<imnichol> Usually that's done using the "windows" key or moving the mouse
<imnichol> But I don't see why you couldn't just use the "menu" key on the remote
<AlanBell> yes, menu to bring in the launcher from the side
<AlanBell> remote control cursors to navigate it
<AlanBell> perhaps a button to press the BFB at the top and get a lens to pop out
<tgm4883> What is the point in hiding it though, other than that is what the desktop does?
<AlanBell> so you can watch telly :)
<imnichol> If we engineer this for an input device that is too simple, then we'll lose all of our ability to do the cool stuff
<imnichol> tgm4883: because you don't need to see it unless you want to change what you are doing, it's wasted space if you're just watching TV
<dmj726> imnichol: That's why I've been proposing additional input methods
<dmj726> imnichol: We should allow all basic functions using a standard remote
<imnichol> I agree
<dmj726> However, we should also allow applications to be controlled in a more advanced way
<tgm4883> imnichol, TV should be full screen, and have an OSD that is only brought up when requested via remote
<tgm4883> exiting TV should bring you back to the media center
<imnichol> So I'm confused about the hate for unity in this situation, since the entire point of unity is that it's out of the way until you need it
<imnichol> tgm4883: OSD?
<dmj726> imnichol: I don't think there's hate here
<tgm4883> On screen display
<imnichol> Ok
<dmj726> just discussion that a few adjustments need to be made to go from the desktop to a really good TV UI
<tgm4883> what is the use case for having the ability to pop up the unity launcher while I'm watching a video?
<imnichol> "hate" was an analogy
<imnichol> :)
<tgm4883> an analogy for hate! :)
<dmj726> tgm4883: So you can go do something else
<tgm4883> FWIW, I like Unity for a desktop
<dmj726> Unity is mostly fine.  Global menu bugs me for 1920x1200 displays
<imnichol> tgm4883: Most of my questions were directed at you're comment that "I don't think Unity desktop really fits into a media center".  I'm just curious about what you think :)
<tgm4883> dmj726, so the two things we are discussing are A) You are watching a video and want to listen to music instead, so you open up the launcher and launch the music app while you are in the video.  VS B) You are watching a video and want to listen to music so you exit the video and launch the music app
<tgm4883> does that about sum it up
<tgm4883> basically, being able to launch another app while still in another application vs having to exit first?
<imnichol> tgm4883: ok I think I get what you're saying
<dmj726> I would say better to be able to keep both up
<imnichol> Yes
<dmj726> but only have playback of whatever happen in whatever has focus
<imnichol> I disagree with that
<imnichol> I'd like to be able to browse the internet temporarily while still listening to the big game in the background
<dmj726> imnichol: okay I'll amend the statement
<imnichol> (I have never watched the big game in my life)
<tgm4883> I think Internet on the TV from a media center perspective is overrated
<dmj726> have default apps respect certain signals
<dmj726> so the music player doesn't keep playing while you start a video
<dmj726> tgm4883: I disagree
<dmj726> It's only overrated if your browser sucks and you only have a remote control to control it from
<tgm4883> dmj726, do you have a keyboard and mouse connected to your media center?
<imnichol> dmj726: why not just pause the music then?
<AlanBell> have a look at what media centres look like e.g. http://xbmc.org/skins/confluence/ and think about how things could be mapped onto a launcher/lens type look and feel
<dmj726> If I had a tablet to control the browser and wanted to show something to a group, it would be awesome
<tgm4883> dmj726, use case, why use the TV to temp browse the web?
<AlanBell> possibly including playback controls in the panel area
<tgm4883> AlanBell, is that directed at me?
<AlanBell> not directed at anyone in particular
<dmj726> so I wouldn't regard a web browser as something to use with a remote, but a TV certainly can be useful
<tgm4883> dmj726, that is completely different and something we actually have on the wishlist
<dmj726> tgm4883: I know it's on the wishlist
<tgm4883> dmj726, the ability to shoot content from a tablet to the TV
<tgm4883> dmj726, but that doesn't require a web browser on the TV. Even if it did, not a full web browser
<imnichol> I wish we could video chat, I think we're missing each other's points here
<AlanBell> video chat would be something I would want on the telly incidentally :)
<dmj726> tgm4883: Actually a web browser controlled via the phone but running on the TV would be a good thing
<imnichol> Hahah
<imnichol> dmj726: I agree
<tgm4883> AlanBell, I agree, I think we could get something similar to Unity using something like XBMC, but I don't want to see this on my TV  http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_1QSDkzYY2vc/TWbk116J3FI/AAAAAAAADIo/BdBOuK9NnSQ/unity-screenshot.png
<dmj726> you don't want everything to be a bunch of vnc sessions over the wifi
<tgm4883> +1 to video chat on the TV
<AlanBell> tgm4883: no, the launcher should be about twice as chunky
<AlanBell> it shouldn't be a desktop, it should just look unityish
<tgm4883> AlanBell, meh, it should probably go all the way across and have banners for each item
<dmj726> Actually, the launcher does look about like your typical bluray OSD
<AlanBell> also think about the dash and lenses
<tgm4883> AlanBell, What about something simlar to this for each item http://wiki.xbmc.org/images/f/fb/Wide1.jpg  (only looking at the bottom right section) Having a wide banner for "Videos" "Music" "Pictures" etc
<tgm4883> That could be made to look unityish
<AlanBell> yes!
<tgm4883> I think that would be a brilliant design and could be made to resemble Unity
<AlanBell> or videos/library/tv shows as launcher buttons, the programs in a lens (groups for heros, house, it crowd with episodes in the groups) and the stuff on the left as lens filters
<tgm4883> I'm going to have to learn more about lenses, I just switched to Unity from Gnome-shell not too long ago
<imnichol> tgm4883: Spoilers: THey rock
<AlanBell> so click the dash button, then more apps
<AlanBell> you have goups for most frequently used, installed and apps available for download
<tgm4883> hmm, I could see that being *Really* useful. If you went into recordings, and you had just wanted the first three episodes of some show it could list the next couple episodes
<tgm4883> depending on viewing habit and such
<tgm4883> If anyone uses MythTV, this would be similar to the watch list
<imnichol> AlanBell: so you're advocating for basically reskinning xbmc?
<tgm4883> but yes, I think selecting one of the items and then showing a few views in the lense would be great
<AlanBell> reskinning and integrating $mediacentre
<tgm4883> imnichol, I've advocated that a few times
<imnichol> tgm4883: Yeah I know, I wanted to make sure I had Alan's point right
<tgm4883> views being (next in recently watched, new content, etc)
<AlanBell> imnichol: yeah, that is right, but I am not totally convinced mythtv is out of the running yet
<dmj726> I'm not sure we should tie everything into being part of the XBMC UI
<tgm4883> dmj726, XBMC is an example of something that already does (or is in the process of developing) most things that we want
<imnichol> I actually prefer the idea of just tweaking Unity slightly and then having all of the various things we want to do (watch tv, video chat, etc) as applications on the unity menu or whever we want to put them
<AlanBell> mythtv has the advantage of acutally being in the repos, so it got through all the legal and licensing issues and is supportable
<tgm4883> AlanBell, I just think that the requirement that MythTV places on needing a recording device doesn't fit in line here
<dmj726> not saying XBMC shouldn't be a key part of what we're doing
<dmj726> same for Myth
<tgm4883> AlanBell, but I DO think we need to support existing DVR backends for the recording/scheduling functionality
<tgm4883> MythTV being one of those backends
<AlanBell> mythtv has its issues no doubt, XBMC not being in ubuntu is a bit of a show stopper though
<dmj726> I prefer keeping Unity, making tweeks as necessary
<tgm4883> can we get a quick idea about what media center's people currently use and what control devices they have?
<dmj726> integrate it well with whatever media center we use
<AlanBell> dmj726: that is one possible implementation of the design :)
<tgm4883> I use MythTV, although I've started to use XBMC as a frontend to that. I have an IR remote control and also an android app on my phone
<dmj726> I don't currently have a media center, though I do have an Asus Oplay, which is similar
<imnichol> Just basic cable
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/programlens.png
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/controlsinpanel.png
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/progresspanel.png
<AlanBell> the .ep files that open in pencil are in that folder too
<MrChrisDruif> ???
<AlanBell> pencil.evolus.vn
<MrChrisDruif> Three quick mockups for Unity UI TV thing?
<AlanBell> yeah
 * MrChrisDruif looks at them more closely tomorrow, off to bed now
<MrChrisDruif> Sleep well AlanBell when the time cometh
<tgm4883> AlanBell, looks great. I think the background needs to change based on currently selected item (or have the option to switch between the dynamic and static backgrounds). Also, should have the ability to remove main window entry options (eg. removing movies, or weather)
<dmj726> AlanBell: so the BFB brings up a dash that lets users browse via lenses for applications or shows?
<dmj726> (or whatever lens they pick)
<AlanBell> I was thinking the background would be the thing playing
<AlanBell> tellytubbies in that example
<AlanBell> can you name them all?
<dmj726> makes sense to have background always be the playing thing (or whatever the user was just doing)
<AlanBell> the launcher should be translucent too probably
<dmj726> Yeah, probably do the blurring thing it does on desktop
<AlanBell> I think it would be great to see more designs like that for unityish user interfaces mapped to media centre concepts, on a 1920x1080 proportioned layout
<AlanBell> which is 480x270 at quarter size
<dmj726> btw, what did you use to make those pics?
<AlanBell> pencil.evolus.vn
<AlanBell> it is a firefox plugin
<AlanBell> or extension
<dmj726> ah, there's a standalone version too
<AlanBell> I put the source files in http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly
<dmj726> cool
<AlanBell> yeah, standalone version is a bit broken as it depends on xulrunner which isn't in oneiric
<dmj726> will try it out later
<AlanBell> I think
<dmj726> hmm...I do have a maverick box
<AlanBell> it works basically like a standalone app, you just launch it from firefox
<AlanBell> you can even close firefox after you have launched it
<AlanBell> I am going to try to get the design team to use pencil and make an Ubuntu widget set for it, so you have a thing for drawing an ubuntu window with buttons on the left etc
<AlanBell> and an easy lens widget for example
<dmj726> yeah, easy launcher too
<AlanBell> yes, mine looks a bit rubbish
<AlanBell> it is important for these things to look a little sketchy
<dmj726> AlanBell: why's that?
<AlanBell> so people don't feel shy about pointing out problems
<dmj726> ah, and don't get too attached to the ooh pretty
<AlanBell> yeah
<dmj726> one thing I notice that doesn't feel right is the playback controls at the top of the screen
<AlanBell> if you google paper prototyping you sill see stuff about it
<dmj726> for some reason it's always felt more natural at the bottom, might just be familiarity
<AlanBell> yeah, I saw one of the xbmc things had controls at the top
<AlanBell> I think the progress bar as the top panel kind of works
<dmj726> progress bar didn't phase me where it was
<AlanBell> that would kind of be your position in the program if it was a recorded thing
<dmj726> I once prototyped a mobile video editor UI on a 3.5" piece of paper taped to a (box of a) deck of cards
<dmj726> ah, progress bar as you call it should be shown with the playback controls I think
<dmj726> If you're not messing with playback, you maybe don't need to be looking at your progress?
<AlanBell> I was thinking of it as a draggable or clickable thing
<dmj726> We also may have to deal with TV safe region btw
<AlanBell> and it would fade away when you are watching
<AlanBell> launcher would slide off to the left, top panel (whatever is in it) would slide or fade upwards
<dmj726> Do have an option for permanent timecode, or whatever overlay I think, but make that a special toggle
<AlanBell> clock top right could be permanent overlay
<AlanBell> and any other indicators
<dmj726> What if the launcher automatically showed any apps/projects that somebody had sent a message to open
<dmj726> So somebody says "Open this project on TV" on their tablet, and it opens up in the launcher
<dmj726> and the launcher flashes that it's available for the moment
<AlanBell> cool, tablet/phone/computer integration with the TV interface sounds nice
<imnichol> That seems ok, but why not just have it open up automatically?
<AlanBell> could be done over avahi or something
<AlanBell> sketch it up :)
<imnichol> FWIW, Apple's new file transfer thing in Lion uses avahi
<AlanBell> yeah, apple invented most of the avahi stuff
<dmj726> imnichol: I'm debating the automatic vs flash in the launcher
<imnichol> Airdrop.  That's the name, it was really bugging me
<dmj726> That actually might be a legitimate case for a preference.
<imnichol> Yeah
<dmj726> depending on if you have annoying people in the house that like to mess with the tv
<imnichol> (roommates)
<dmj726> three options: 1) switch to new task immediately 2) stay on current task but display launcher with flashing icon 3) place icon in launcher but do not show launcher automatically
<imnichol> Those all sound good.
<imnichol> Do you think there should be an option to just disable it entirely?
<dmj726> 1) is useful for several people working together 2) and 3) are useful for households with an annoying individual who thinks its funny to interrupt someone's viewing experience
<dmj726> imnichol: 3) is effectively disabled since you wouldn't notice it unless you specifically checked the launcher
<imnichol> #3 would allow an annoying person to spam the launcher with a bunch of tasks
<dmj726> if you really don't want stuff appearing in the launcher (which basically shows everything running on the system) you shouldn't give said person access to your system
<imnichol> Although it may not be necessary depending on how the phones/tablets/computers are authenticated to the tv
<AlanBell> probably best to focus on the single device use-case first
<dmj726> we do want authentication.  Random person can just use the remote, not access all your apps with their tablet
<AlanBell> TV+remote control
<dmj726> AlanBell: Well I want to make sure this is compatible with the expanded use case, even if it's not implemented right away, otherwise there will be backtracking
<AlanBell> ok
<dmj726> at least in general design
<dmj726> I would say for authenticated devices (however we authenticate them), allow #1, #2, or #3 to be an option.
<AlanBell> for the phone/tablet linkup I would think that just a vnc connection (maybe a wayland thing . . .) to just clone the display to your phone/tablet would give you touch control for the big screen
<dmj726> picking whichever default seems sanest
#ubuntu-tv 2011-11-24
<dmj726> AlanBell: I don't think pure VNC is the best idea actually
<AlanBell> a slightly better protocol perhaps
<dmj726> In a lot of cases you don't really want to replicate your tablet's screen.
<AlanBell> no, I want to replicate the TV screen on the tablet
<AlanBell> so I can drag the progress bar with my fingers
<AlanBell> so my tablet becomes a touchscreen remote control for the telly
<dmj726> Well, that might be *one* good tool, but there are other use cases
<dmj726> actually I do think your suggestion is good
<AlanBell> possibly scale in memory to 480x270 and vnc that
<dmj726> Somebody might want to watch sports, and have their tablet sync with the game to show additional stats for instance
<imnichol> What about just replicating the tv controls on your mobile device?
<dmj726> imnichol: yeah, a pure remote might be more handy
<dmj726> you don't care about having both picture and playback controls duplicated, what you care about is seeing the buttons and the time slider and so forth
<imnichol> Yeah
<imnichol> And that way we can avoid pushing a bunch of data over the network
<dmj726> same for a TV guide app
<AlanBell> oh, indeed, TV guide app running locally on a tablet and controlling the TV would be nice
<dmj726> would be handy to just keep watching whatever channel, while you switch to the new show.
<imnichol> Since the tv would end up sending the picture over the network once for each attached device
<AlanBell> ok, I am off to bed, do have a play with pencil and sketch up some concepts!
<dmj726> Actually, Novacut would like to have a client running on the TV, but controlled by another client on the tablet.
<AlanBell> we should put together a wiki page of concept sketches
<imnichol> Doesn't tha tpretty much do exactly what I'm saying?
<dmj726> perhaps both tweaked to particular uses
<dmj726> yeah, but not vnc style
<imnichol> Yeah, ok
<imnichol> I got ya.  I'm of the opinion that vnc is not the answer
<dmj726> more like the TV guide on tablet style
<imnichol> See ya AlanBell
<dmj726> I think having VNC as an option is good for when that's actually desired (basically like plugging in a monitor without a physical wire)
<imnichol> dmj726: Good point
<dmj726> but that shouldn't be the catchall solution
<dmj726> since that won't get us great new experiences
<dmj726> You know, if you could connect to the TV as a sort of local web server, it might very well be possible to have client GUIs for small apps delivered as websites for a browser or simple client on the tablet's side
<dmj726> webkit is actually quite the toolkit these days.
<imnichol> Yeah, that actually seems like it would be pretty snazzy
<dmj726> ...and easy for developers
<dmj726> http://imagebin.org/185388
<dmj726> imnichol: ^^
<imnichol> What does bfb stand for?
<imnichol> Oh, big freaking button
<dmj726> big fat buttion
<imnichol> Got it
<dmj726> the "ubuntu button"
<imnichol> So that's like the menu?
<dmj726> yeah
<dmj726> basically how the dash might look like for tv instead of desktop
<imnichol> How does it differ from the dash now?
<dmj726> look at it in 11.10
<imnichol> I am
<dmj726> much more remote friendly
<imnichol> ONly thing I see that's different is that the icons are moved
<dmj726> and shows things important on a tv
<dmj726> like recommendations for TV shows
<imnichol> Oh got ya
<imnichol> It looks pretty sweet
<imnichol> The nice thing about having web-based guis is that it allows people on non-ubuntu devices to integrate with the ubuntu tv
<AlanBell> BFB is the "Big Friendly Button" I think
<dmj726> hey AlanBell
<AlanBell> morning
<dmj726> http://imagebin.org/185405
<AlanBell> nice
<dmj726> So I tried to keep in mind navigating with a remote for the layout
<dmj726> AlanBell: pencil is pretty cool
<AlanBell> yeah, it is nice
<AlanBell> and it is Free software
<dmj726> which is good
<dmj726> I think the availability of open tools for FOSS development is important
<AlanBell> I think the #ubuntu-design team is about assembling open tools for design
<AlanBell> so that the canonical design team give up using illustrator and the like
<dmj726> Hmm...I hadn't realized they were developing tools for this, nice
<AlanBell> so they can collaborate with people
<dmj726> Eventually Novacut would like to help with that.
<dmj726> Though right now there just aren't enough developer hours to give that much focus at all
<AlanBell> indeed
<dmj726> We have to achieve many other targets before we can devote resources to that.
<dmj726> However, we've done a lot of work as separate components that other projects should be able to benefit from
<dmj726> For instance, with dmedia, which handles importing media files from cards and other sources and makes keeping backups and replicating data wherever it's needed easy.  It's obviously important for a collaborative video editor, but it could be useful for other applications with demanding media storage needs.
<dmj726> (My intent isn't to brag here, just saying what we're trying to do and where Novacut's focus has to be)
<dmj726> Which is basically providing the best collaborative editing experience we can, and helping artists distribute their films on as wide a player base as possible.
<dmj726> anyway, The launcher would work basically the same as on desktop, except with arrow key friendliness, and fullscreen only
<dmj726> It might make sense down the line to support split screen as well, but that's a thought for later
<dmj726> The idea with "view all" would be sort of a grid view thumbnailing all the open applications.
<dmj726> Basically letting you see exactly what's running, see what it's doing, and switch to or end any of them.  I suspect this would be a useful feature, when switching between apps.
<dmj726> hi willcooke
<dmj726> willcooke: http://imagebin.org/185405
<dmj726> plus possible window dashboard view: http://imagebin.org/185417
<willcooke> dmj726, morning!  Love it!!  I'll forward to the design team
<dmj726> sweet
<dmj726> willcooke: I just pasted those up for being quick and easy
<dmj726> ...if you want a permanent reference, just copy and host them somewhere else
<dmj726> I need to sleep atm
<AlanBell> willcooke: do you have all the backscroll from last night?
<AlanBell> 22:25 < AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/programlens.png
<AlanBell> 22:25 < AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/controlsinpanel.png
<AlanBell> 22:25 < AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/progresspanel.png
<AlanBell> 22:29 < AlanBell> the .ep files that open in pencil are in that folder too
<willcooke> AlanBell, I'll review the logs
<willcooke> Love the designs - it looks like unity should work well on the 10ft UI
<willcooke> I appreciate I'm beginning to sound like a stuck record, but I'm really amazed by how quickly you guys have got moving on this.
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/pencilfiles/#
<AlanBell> ok, I am liking pencil now :) http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; you on?
<AlanBell> yus
<AlanBell> wassup MrChrisDruif?
<MrChrisDruif> Nothing much, you?
<AlanBell> see my wireframe stuff?
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly
<MrChrisDruif> Now I do =)
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/pencilfiles for the pencil source images and unity.zip is a pencil output theme for ubuntu
<MrChrisDruif> What is that BFB?
<AlanBell> ubuntu.zip even
<AlanBell> big friendly button
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh, the Dash button (that thing to open up the dash?)
<MrChrisDruif> ?
<AlanBell> yes, the big friendly button :)
<AlanBell> don't pay too much attention to my scribbles
<AlanBell> the point is that if you use pencil and start with http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/pencilfiles/BaseDesignFrame.ep
<AlanBell> then you can create actual sketches and storyboards for the design concept
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh, you're back =)
<MrChrisDruif> I was just planning on calling it a night =)
<MrChrisDruif> But what does the BFB do?
<AlanBell> I don't know
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; ^
<AlanBell> does what you want it to do,
<AlanBell> I haven't really given it that much thought, I have been working on a wireframing and storyboarding framework
<AlanBell> so that other people can do design concepts
<MrChrisDruif> Alright
<MrChrisDruif> It's just a placeholder =)
<AlanBell> yeah, the only reason I did so many pages was to get a scrollbar to happen
<MrChrisDruif> (I love working on this project)
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<AlanBell> and I wanted to do one with a remote by the side of the TV
<AlanBell> BaseDesignFrame.ep is a blank template, basically just the first frame of the concept series
<MrChrisDruif> Yup, a nice flair would have been a "big" Ubuntu button on that remote. But that's just for lolz
<AlanBell> it gives you an empty telly of the right proportions on which to draw your design
<AlanBell> slap one on, I hate the orange remote
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<AlanBell> Just wanted the shape to show where people should do remote design
<MrChrisDruif> You made the screen part 1/4 of the resolution of 1080p I gather from your earlier mockups?
<AlanBell> yes, the coordinates are at the bottom of the first slide
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, what about strange resolutions?
<AlanBell> you can add page description text
<AlanBell> what strange resolutions?
<MrChrisDruif> Like the CinemaTV from Philips
<MrChrisDruif> It's got 2560x1080 if I'm not mistaken
<MrChrisDruif> 21:9 format that is
<AlanBell> so it is
<AlanBell> well that would probably work fine, vertical height is 1080 still
<AlanBell> high res stuff would just work
<AlanBell> but I think we have to design for 1920x1080
<MrChrisDruif> Yes, but "TV" broadcasts are 16:9 (in full color) while movies are 21:9 (hence the weird format for it, there are two black bars in movies to fill the screen nonetheless)
<AlanBell> like mercedes design their cars in silver
<AlanBell> they come out in different colours, but the design models are always silver
<MrChrisDruif> I meant more of: will we be able to support it and maybe even saide-by-side viewing?
<AlanBell> dunno
<MrChrisDruif> Something to think about I think =)
<MrChrisDruif> I'd have to use pencil to use those files?
<AlanBell> yes
<MrChrisDruif> Did anyone speak with the design team and OEM team already? So we don't do work that has been done already
<AlanBell> willcooke was going to talk to the design team
<MrChrisDruif> Hmm, we didn't assign actions on those items *mental note for next time*
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, great and the OEM team?
<AlanBell> I am talking to them about using pencil for wireframing and storyboarding, this is an example for that
<AlanBell> dunno if anyone asked the OEM team, I saw Chris Kenyon joined the launchpad group
<MrChrisDruif> The OEM team was about deciding for what kind of hardware we would be developing this (part of the) system for right?
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, that's it. I'm off =) Talk to ya later AlanBell =)
<AlanBell> o/
#ubuntu-tv 2011-11-26
<MrChrisDruif> Afternoon
<MrChrisDruif> How of it going here?
<MrChrisDruif> Of =	is
<MrChrisDruif> I've been working on a more proper wiki page for the team. I'll continue to work on it when I'm on my computer
<MrChrisDruif> ...tonight
<MrChrisDruif> God, this is awful...typing on my smartphone
<MrChrisDruif> I'll be back tonight, ttyl
 * MrChrisDruif is working on our wiki area
<MrChrisDruif> popey; can you remember where they announced working on Ubuntu TV?
<AlanBell> MrChrisDruif: where is the wiki area?
<MrChrisDruif> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV but I'm still working on them
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; ^
<AlanBell> yup
<popey> MrChrisDruif: marks blog
<popey> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/820
<MrChrisDruif> And in the keynote, but I've got my Introduction part ready I think
 * popey is going to http://www.apps-world.net/europe/workshops/tv-apps-world next week
<MrChrisDruif> It was UK based if I'm not mistaken?
<popey> y
<popey> London
<popey> just to be clear though MrChrisDruif we're not 'working on ubuntu tv'
<popey> it was more mark saying he'd like to be in that space by then
<MrChrisDruif> Hmmm, what DO we do then? =/
<popey> well, we can start looking at stuff now, sure.
<popey> I'm just saying that when mark made that aspirational blog post, that's what it was, an aspiration
<MrChrisDruif> But doesn't that mean that we've got "permission" to start looking at what Unity/Ubuntu on the telly should look like?
<MrChrisDruif> Or are we just a brainstorm group which can get nothing achieved?
<popey> well the announcement about tv, phone and tablet on the design blog indicated that this was a way to spark discussion. http://design.canonical.com/2011/11/ubuntu-phone-tablet-and-tv-discussion-opened/
<popey> and it's certainly done that
<popey> the list has been quite active with ideas, which is exactly what was asked for âº
<popey> where it goes from here, I don't know, ask Will or Mika I guess.
<popey> also interesting that the blog post shows not only TV, Phone and Tablet, but IVI too.
<MrChrisDruif> IVI?
<popey> http://www.canonical.com/content/canonical-joins-genivi-and-announces-ubuntu-version-vehicle-infotainment
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, only TV has been active. I've not seen much activity in phone or tablet (I don't think ANY activity in tablet)
<MrChrisDruif> Ah, right, what he also showed in his keynote speech. You could see a carputer
<popey> exactly
<popey> TV does seem to have captured some imagination
<MrChrisDruif> Apparently the correct term is IVI
<popey> tablets and phones less so I guess because the hardware is harder
<popey> less accessible
<popey> yeah, IVI because it's not just cars
<popey> planes..
<AlanBell> well tablets would be the desktop OS with multitouch doing useful stuff
<MrChrisDruif> I would say that TV's are harder in terms of accessibility
<MrChrisDruif> I was thinking the same. Ubuntu (Desktop) is pretty aimed towards touch input I think
<MrChrisDruif> Maybe some more multi-touch features and it's set.
 * MrChrisDruif thinks anyway
<MrChrisDruif> I WAS thinking about sprucing up the phone mailing-list/IRC after the jump start of TV
<popey> AlanBell: i am not so sure
<popey> unity might be okay, but the apps under it aren't at all touch friendly
<popey> small buttons, lots of menus etc
<popey> look at thunderbird and imagine what that would be like on a touch interface for example
<AlanBell> I guess
<AlanBell> not really used a tablet
<popey> next time you see me I'll thrust my ipad in your hands
<popey> its a very different experience
<AlanBell> ok
<MrChrisDruif> Well, there could be 2 solutions for that. Either specific tablet/phone apps or make all apps touch friendly
<popey> everything full screen for one
<popey> many of the same issues that TV has tbh
<AlanBell> well with the next generation of tablets having mega high resolution screens that might change things
<MrChrisDruif> But with the second you get a lot of the desktop users in the wry
<MrChrisDruif> There are PHONES coming with HD resolutions
<popey> resolution isnt the issue. the try navigating the gimp menu on a touch device
<popey> holding your finger, dragging, holding, dragging... oops, i lifted my finger, bam there goes the menu
<AlanBell> I used to use a desktop os on a tablet computer with a stylus
<MrChrisDruif> Well, the Gimp isn't exactly the right example with all it's window tbh
<MrChrisDruif> But "modern" tablets can't use pens, they are capacitive
<MrChrisDruif> + screens
<AlanBell> popey: is the ipad just a big iphone?
<AlanBell> in terms of user interface
<MrChrisDruif> Pretty much so
<MrChrisDruif> Same with Android I think
<AlanBell> so tablets don't really get their own thing
<MrChrisDruif> How do you mean?
<AlanBell> they are either a scaled down desktop OS or a scaled up phone OS
<AlanBell> there isn't a tablet sized OS
<MrChrisDruif> I was just recalling what I've heard/seen. I think it is pretty much documented on the web
<MrChrisDruif> I would love a desktop on a tablet which is touch friendly =)
<MrChrisDruif> But when the tablet os is a scaled-down desktop, it's not touch friendly and the other way around it's not feature-full in my eyes. It's "missing" something
<MrChrisDruif> But AlanBell, if you are interested in ubuntu-tablet, come join us @ #ubuntu-tablet
<popey> AlanBell: well, android have tabletified their UI
<popey> so android 3 and 4 are designed for tablets
<popey> but 2.x was for phones
<popey> 2.x and 3.x are arguably merged in 4.x
<MrChrisDruif> They are
<MrChrisDruif> It were two OS's until Android 4, which will be released on both phones and tablets
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV is done for now
<MrChrisDruif> Any comments popey or AlanBell ?
<popey> will take a look later, just eating my tea :D
<MrChrisDruif> Is it thÃ¡t strong? =P
<dmj726> Well, there has been some discussion about tablet UI but it was before the current list
<dmj726> I think people jumped on the TV because it was the most "out there" and least well defined
<imnichol> dmj726: That's why I personally got into tv, although it's also just because it seems to have the most active community
<dmj726> I think there is a lot of good work done already wrt apps on phones
<dmj726> Maemo/Meego did a pretty great job phonifying desktop apps
<dmj726> a big thing was making the menus finger friendly
<dmj726> That said, the best apps for said device put effort into simplifying the GUI
<MrChrisDruif> dmj726; imnichol; did you see the new wiki page I created?
<imnichol> Yeah
<imnichol> IT looks good, although the link in the "meetings" section is broken
<imnichol> I'd fix it myself but I'm not familiar with how these pages should be laid out
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; I'm working on that page atm ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> Almost done (I hope, few more minutes)
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; /Meetings should work now
<imnichol> Oh righteous
<imnichol> That's awesome
<MrChrisDruif> Yes, the link to the meeting notes is ALSO broken
<MrChrisDruif> It is next up on the list
<MrChrisDruif> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings/20111123 is also functioning now
<MrChrisDruif> imnichol; ^ Should be https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Meetings/20111123 and is now functioning
<MrChrisDruif> Alright, it's on the mailing-list =)
#ubuntu-tv 2011-11-27
<imnichol> So are this irc channel and the ubuntu-tv list the only development going on for an ubuntu tv at this point?
<imnichol> I realize that this is still pretty early, so there's not going to be a huge amount of work on it
<dmj726> imnichol: I'd like to know this as well
<imnichol> I mean, I'm not a Canonical employee myself, so if there's a bunch of people being paid to do this, I'd like to know so that I don't end up stepping on their toes
<dmj726> It would give me confidence to know that Canonical is actually giving this a big push right now.
<imnichol> Agreed
<IAmNotThatGuy> Any sign of Undi?
<MrChrisDruif> Good day
<IAmNotThatGuy> Good afternoon MrChrisDruif :]
<MrChrisDruif> Good morning to you as well IAmNotThatGuy =)
<IAmNotThatGuy> I wish it cpuld be Saturday night here :[
<IAmNotThatGuy> could*
<MrChrisDruif> Sunday morning over here
<MrChrisDruif> Did you all see the email about the updated wiki area?
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; I don't really like Pencil as it can only run in Firefox till about version 7 or something (that, and I'm more of a chromium man). Can't we just use .svg images? That can but handled by InkScape
<AlanBell> it doesn't run in firefox, it gets launched from firefox
<AlanBell> it runs in it's own window
<MrChrisDruif> Still, I couldn't get it working
<AlanBell> ok, how far did you get with it?
<MrChrisDruif> Apparently you can also run it separately, but I've not yet managed that as well
<AlanBell> http://evoluspencil.googlecode.com/files/Pencil-1.3-2-fx.xpi download that
<AlanBell> in firefox you need to add it as an extension, then in the tools menu you get the pencil sketching option
<AlanBell> you can use inkscape, but it isn't a wireframing storyboarding application
<MrChrisDruif> Finally, it works
<AlanBell> yay
<MrChrisDruif> I had trouble installing it manually, but I just had to search for it on the internetz
<AlanBell> I am just trying to launch it directly without using firefox
<MrChrisDruif> Only version 1.2 seems to be available
<MrChrisDruif> For a standalone version
<MrChrisDruif> http://pencil.evolus.vn/en-US/Downloads/Application.aspx
<AlanBell> yeah, but you can expand the .xpi
<AlanBell> in theory you can then run firefox --app ./application.ini
<AlanBell> and I had to edit the application.ini to let it be compatible with firefox 8
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh, if you get it working, let me know
<AlanBell> I don't get the problem with running it as an extension though
<MrChrisDruif> Btw, did you take a look at the wiki page already?
<AlanBell> yeah, it is fine
<MrChrisDruif> Good to hear
 * MrChrisDruif is of for dinner
 * AlanBell gives up trying to get it to launch outside of firefox
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<AlanBell> it should work, but doesn't, and it is a bit pointless all round
<AlanBell> firefox is part of ubuntu, everyone has it, pencil installs easily and automatically in firefox, you just have to run firefox, launch it from the tools menu and close firefox if you don't want to use firefox
<MrChrisDruif> Well, for someone not using Firefox... ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> You can close Firefox itself after launching?
<AlanBell> nobody with ubuntu-desktop doesn't have firefox
<AlanBell> yes, you can close firefox
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh, great =)
<MrChrisDruif> I "might" take a look at it later on
<MrChrisDruif> But I'm shutting down, of to the ferry to the mainland (I'm on Texel atm, mainland being the rest of Holland ;-) )
<AlanBell> ok
<AlanBell> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/918
<AlanBell> tgm4883: imnichol dmj726 ^^^
<imnichol> Can you re-share that link?
<AlanBell> huh?
<imnichol> Oh sorry, thought the "^^^" was you trying to direct my attention to something that someone had said before I joined
<AlanBell> http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/918
<AlanBell> sorry, I have joins and similar junk all directed to another window
<imnichol> Wow
<imnichol> Mark Shuttleworth actually acknowledged me :3
<AlanBell> thought you might like it ;)
<imnichol> Dude I'm kind of freaking out
<imnichol> lol
<imnichol> Hahah thanks for pointing that out
<AlanBell> "a TV experience for Unity" is what he calls it
<imnichol> It's all about the wording
<imnichol> AlanBell: are you a Canonical employee?
<AlanBell> no
<imnichol> Ok.  I need a spreadsheet to remember who everyone is and what they think about things
<imnichol> (I'm not either)
<tgm4883> sweet
<tgm4883> err
<tgm4883> AlanBell, is that the list?
<tgm4883> I thought there were far less essential items
<tgm4883> oh nm, I see that the formatting got screwed up on for high priority
<AlanBell> dunno
<AlanBell> I don't think the feature list matters much tbh
<tgm4883> AlanBell, where is the pencil stuff?
<tgm4883> I wasn't around the last few days so I didn't bookmark it
<imnichol> tgm4883: I think it's this http://pencil.evolus.vn/en-US/Downloads/Application.aspx
<imnichol> Is that correct AlanBell?
<AlanBell> imnichol: yes, that should be fine https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-tv/msg00019.html
<imnichol> Thanks.  I grabbed my link off irclogs.ubuntu.com
<imnichol> But yours is better ;)
<yo2boy_> :)
<AlanBell> http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/ubuntu-smart-tv-discussions-begin-to-warm-up/
<AlanBell> erk
<tgm4883> AlanBell, looks like I'm going to have to make some sketches as well, can't let you get all the press ;)
<AlanBell> good!
<imnichol> I've just got another week and a half till finals are over and I can actually be creative instead of just hanging out here
<imnichol> If I allowed myself to get too involved with this project, I'd probably fail all my classes
<imnichol> Till that time, AlanBell, you'll continue to be way more productive than I am
<AlanBell> I am about done really
<AlanBell> bit perplexed by the attention it is getting
<imnichol> Hey, they're good designs
<popey> 'ubuntu designer Alan bell'
<popey> ho ho ho
<AlanBell> yeah /o\
<tgm4883> I've got to look into why pencil doesn't want to launch on my 64-bit oneiric install
<tgm4883> other stuff to do first though
<AlanBell> the clever bit if you can call it that was the ubuntu themed jquery export filter for pencil
<AlanBell> tgm4883: I am using 64bit oneiric
<tgm4883> AlanBell, are you using the standalone or FF version?
<AlanBell> firefox version
<tgm4883> ah
<tgm4883> I'm using standalone
<AlanBell> standalone doesn't work
<AlanBell> there is no xulrunner
<tgm4883> I see
<tgm4883> that explains alot
 * tgm4883 now has to figure out FF
<AlanBell> all you do is click the thing in firefox and it works
<popey> why does pencil not work standalone now?
<AlanBell> http://pencil.evolus.vn/en-US/Home.aspx big orange button
<AlanBell> popey: we dropped xulrunner
<AlanBell> and it isn't being maintained as well standalone
<popey> ah
<AlanBell> and we dropped xulrunner because mozilla have a 6 nanosecond release cycle
<AlanBell> so click the big orange button, do what it says to install the extension, then from the tools menu launch pencil
<AlanBell> then you can close firefox and you don't need to figure out how firefox works
<AlanBell> once pencil is running it is a separate application, you just have to launch it from firefox
<AlanBell> then in the pencil menus go to tools-manage export templates and from there you can install my ubuntu.zip export template
<AlanBell> which is full of awesome
<tgm4883> ok, pencil actually works now
<tgm4883> although FF didn't want to know what an xpi file was
<AlanBell> and download the BaseDesignFrame.ep and start making new pages with your designs on them
<AlanBell> copying and pasting the TV from the first page
<popey> clicking the orange button wants to download a file associated with archive viewer
<AlanBell> um, save it somewhere I guess
<popey> i have
<popey> it dosn't open with ff
<AlanBell> one sec, will try installing on another PC
<popey> archive manager has the association
<AlanBell> maybe some magic involved
<popey> open with
<popey> thats done it
<AlanBell> ah right
<AlanBell> I thought file associations were just broken on my PC
<popey> where is the zip?
<popey> haha just found http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/popey.png
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/unitytelly/pencilfiles/
 * AlanBell upgrades from pencil 1.3.0 to 1.3.2
<AlanBell> popey: got it working?
<popey> i have imported your zip, not sure how to use it âº
<AlanBell> in the menu document-export document, single web page, all pages, select the template Ubuntu Theme and pick a destination folder.
<MrChrisDruif> Good evening everyone; 'lo AlanBell
<AlanBell> hi MrChrisDruif
<MrChrisDruif> How's it going?
<AlanBell> fine, I was *not* expecting my scribbles to be featured on OMGUbuntu
<MrChrisDruif> Haha =)
<MrChrisDruif> They have a tendency in doing that
<AlanBell> it is an interesting suggestion having stuff wiki hosted btw
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, takes the fuss out of setting it up somewhere else
<MrChrisDruif> But I don't know if it's possible
<imnichol> AlanBell: Have you put "ubuntu designer" on your resume yet? ;)
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, indeed =P
<AlanBell> oh, can't attach HTML files to the wiki and view them
<AlanBell> I think the filters will strip out all the interesting stuff
<MrChrisDruif> I don't know. The .pe files (?) create html files or something?
<MrChrisDruif> I haven't played with it yet
<AlanBell> .ep files
<AlanBell> and the export filter I wrote creates html files, yes
<MrChrisDruif> Alright
<AlanBell> just static HTML and images that can be put anywhere
<MrChrisDruif> Can't it be converted to moinmoin?
<MrChrisDruif> Just curious...
<AlanBell> then you have to upload each image one by one, and the transitions are not as smooth, and you don't get to see the storyboard of thumbnails
<MrChrisDruif> But have we got an area where we can upload the html-files to?
<AlanBell> everyone has their favourite
<AlanBell> vps, home server, people.ubuntu.com whatever
<AlanBell> or email me a .ep file and I will put it up
<MrChrisDruif> I mean for public viewing =)
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV/Designs
<MrChrisDruif> But can we upload the html to that page?
<AlanBell> no
<AlanBell> I tried, it sets the contenttype so you end up downloading an html file, it won't serve attachments
<MrChrisDruif> So what should we do for a solution?
<AlanBell> solution to what problem?
<MrChrisDruif> Well, the public viewing of ideas =)
<AlanBell> I don't get the problem
<AlanBell> put your stuff up somewhere, link to it from that page
<MrChrisDruif> I (for instance) don't know how to put it up somewhere where everyone can access it, but I know about linking with wiki
<MrChrisDruif> I even can think of the syntax needed to put those images on the wiki, maybe even with thumbnails
<AlanBell> 22:35 < AlanBell> or email me a .ep file and I will put it up
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, true =)
<AlanBell> I am sure the data can be put in the wiki, with effort (attaching files one by one)
<AlanBell> but what I am after is an efficient workflow for doing GUI design
<AlanBell> if we end up making it hard to do then the design team will go use balsamiq or something and not collaborate with the community on design
<MrChrisDruif> True, but I was thinking about the viewing part
<MrChrisDruif> But if you're okay with setting stuff up for people like me =)
<AlanBell> basically it is trivial to update a design with ssh access to some web space
<AlanBell> which just needs something running ubuntu and apache, or an account somewhere like people.ubuntu.com or people.canonical.com
<popey> people.canonical.com is restricted
<popey> AIUI
<popey> so p.u.c makes more sense
<imnichol> Doesn't people.ubuntu.com also require approval?
<imnichol> How easy is it to get access to p.u.c?
<imnichol> Or \\people, since my workplace uses an AD domain ;)
<popey> sorry, i wasnt clear
<popey> people.u.c. is only available to upload by ubuntu members
<popey> people.c.c is only available to upload by canonical employees
<popey> people.u.c is _readable_ by anyone
<popey> people.c.c is restricted read I believe? you have to login via launchpad to view files?
<imnichol> OH ok
<imnichol> Thanks for the clarification
<imnichol> But how hard is it to become an Ubuntu member?
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<popey> basically requires a sustained and significant contribution to the project
<imnichol> I'm just curious what "sustained and significant" means
<popey> in a nutshell, some months of doing 'stuff' valued by the project
<imnichol> So a pretty vague definition?
<popey> no, it's quite well defined âº
<MrChrisDruif> Yup, that Ubuntu Membership for ya =)
<imnichol> hahah
 * popey has been on the board who approves members
<popey> for 2 years
<imnichol> Nice.  Congrats dude
<imnichol> Aren't you a mod as well?
<popey> I'm not on the board anymore âº
<imnichol> Oh ok
<MrChrisDruif> There are 3 boards if I'm not mistaken
<popey> there are
<imnichol> Oh, by the way, what's the code to actually make an emoticon?
<imnichol> I see that popey is doing it a lot, but MrChris and I don't seem to have ours turn into the picture
<MrChrisDruif> It's some AltGr combo I think
<popey> I have an alias in my irc client that does it
<MrChrisDruif> Ahh, that *would* be awesome
<AlanBell> http://people.canonical.com/~dholbach/oneiric.jpg
<AlanBell> can people see that?
<MrChrisDruif> I can
 * AlanBell sees no p.c.c auth requirement
<MrChrisDruif> Haha
<imnichol> Ah I see
<imnichol> Yeah I see it
<AlanBell> popey: probably chmod o+r is needed
<MrChrisDruif> AlanBell; good going on the wiki pages I see =)
<popey> ah my bad AlanBell I'm thinking of another machine at canonical
<AlanBell> ok, no problem
<MrChrisDruif> I'll have my hand at that Pencil/Storyboard bogus. What did you guys (or at least AlanBell ) think about the suggestions for software on OMG?
<AlanBell> http://media-explorer.org/ that one?
<AlanBell> I have no opinion really
<MrChrisDruif> Yeah, that was one. The others we've known about (xbmc, mythtv)
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-19
<cm-t> Rick rolling with Ubuntu-TV was nice, thanks for all you work
<jhodapp> bobweaver, tgm4883, checking in with you guys, how are things going?
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  things are ok (my end )there is a Log from yesterday that looks at concerns that each of us have. and  what we have been working on
<bobweaver> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2012/11/17/%23ubuntu-tv.html
<jhodapp> bobweaver, perfect, I'll check that out
<jhodapp> thanks
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  Ubuntu TV went over real well at the France Loco Party
<jhodapp> bobweaver, sweet!
<bobweaver> well the mock up that is
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  we are also wondering about grilo when you get the chance
<bobweaver> me and tgm4883
<jhodapp> bobweaver, what about it?
<tgm4883> Probably just something I'm misunderstanding
<tgm4883> so if grilo is basically "unity for metadata", and unity has scopes for metadata, and scopes can pull from other scopes, why do we need grilo?
<jhodapp> tgm4883, because the grilo plugins know how to talk to specific services
<jhodapp> tgm4883, you don't want to rewrite all of that from scratch as unity scopes
<bobweaver> can grilo handle translations ?
<jhodapp> bobweaver, yeah
<bobweaver> like if tmdb get movie in french will it be able to render to scope though scope is wrote in english
<bobweaver> thats what i mean
<bobweaver> hang brb
<jhodapp> unity scopes don't need to do everything from scratch, they can still call on supporting libraries to collect their data
<bobweaver> coffee
<tgm4883> jhodapp, is there a list of grilo plugins somewhere?
<jhodapp> tgm4883, yeah, the grilo website has the list
<jhodapp> bobweaver, should be able to
<bobweaver> Ok that was something that I run into troubles with the Ubuntu France team
<bobweaver> once data was gathered because it was not in english it would crash the scope because it dont know what to parese
<bobweaver> this is old dumb lens keep in mind well not dumb but at any rate
<bobweaver> because one calls somehitng (metadata) in english it *only* going to look for that call
<bobweaver> thus not working in any other languages
<jhodapp> bobweaver, yeah, unity couldn't be taken seriously without considering translations
<bobweaver> u3d.tr  I can not figure it out
<bobweaver> but tht is her nor there
<bobweaver> here *
<bobweaver> u2d.tr("this string should translate but wont and even test work ")
<bobweaver> what is same in 3d ?
<tgm4883> jhodapp, I'm assuming grilo could just be a len/scope?
<jhodapp> tgm4883, can be used in a scope to collect metadata
<jhodapp> tgm4883, in a similar way to how a scope might use sqlite to search a local database
<tgm4883> jhodapp, right, but it's basically nothing that bobweaver would have to build in support for
<jhodapp> tgm4883, I don't understand your question
<tgm4883> jhodapp, which I think answers my question ;)
<jhodapp> lol
<tgm4883> jhodapp, basically, bobweaver's got to do work to get a tv form factor and layout stuff. But he doesn't have to write any unity code specifically for Grilo
<tgm4883> since it would be up to lens/scope creators to decide if they want to use Grilo
<bobweaver> seems like it should be wrote into nux
<jhodapp> tgm4883, he does if he wants a lens/scope pair to search metadata sources (like TMDB) and include that data in a len's vieew
<jhodapp> view
<jhodapp> bobweaver, no not Nux
<bobweaver> like
<tgm4883> eg. A scope writer is specifically going to ask Grilo for metadata, not ask Unity for metadata which then in turn asks Grilo for metadata
<bobweaver> grilo_layout_ = new nux::HLayout();
<tgm4883> it's Scope -> Grilo, not Scope -> Unity -> Grilo
<jhodapp> tgm4883, A scope is a part of what makes Unity, so it cannot ask Unity
<jhodapp> so Lens -> Scope -> Grilo -> Grilo Plugins
<tgm4883> eh, kinda
<jhodapp> don't quite get it?
<tgm4883> No, I get how it is planned, but there could be an interface in Unity for a scope to ask for metadata
<tgm4883> that way, if Grilo didn't take off, you could switch out that backend without changing scopes
<tgm4883> s/changing/editing
<jhodapp> tgm4883, there could be, but today, to my knowledge, that doesn't exist
<jhodapp> tgm4883, but Grilo will take off, and I'm not sure at this point that another layer of abstraction adds much (I understand your line of reasoning though).
<tgm4883> jhodapp, ok
<jhodapp> tgm4883, though nothing would be stopping you from creating such an abstraction
<tgm4883> jhodapp, mhall119 so on a similar but different note, I had a question about how I should deal with guide data
<tgm4883> I've got two ways of dealing with it
<tgm4883> which would have bobweaver do things differently as well
<bobweaver> sorry had phone call (work) reading up
<bobweaver> so grilo will be scope that can be added to any lens. My question then is how to control dbus name ?
<mhall119> tgm4883: are you asking specifically how to get it to the Dash?
<bobweaver> so that there is not 2 of the ssame path running ?
<bobweaver> com/canonical/unity/plugings/grilo
<mhall119> bobweaver: you can't have one scope for multiple lenses
<mhall119> you'd need multiple scopes
<bobweaver> for each scope needs it own dbus .
<bobweaver> bingo mhall119
<mhall119> however, you can have one process that provides multiple scopes
<tgm4883> mhall119, more what format, as well need a layout from bobweaver. Let me explain
<bobweaver> unless dbus path changed somehow
<mhall119> bobweaver: we'd need separate dbus names
<tgm4883> A) I can pass the XML directly from mythtv to the layout, then bobweaver would need to write code in the layout to parse the XML for display
<bobweaver> correct like com.canonical.unity.plugin.grilo.video
<bobweaver> correct like com.canonical.unity.plugin.grilo.music
<tgm4883> the advantage of that, is I'd imaging that unity could process XML faster than python
<mhall119> tgm4883: the current API won't let you pass XML to the Dash
<tgm4883> bah, I forgot I have a meeting
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  xml can be parshed in python like in qt-quick ?
<tgm4883> back in ~1hour
<bobweaver> so wrote into lens
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  if you need example look at the old video-lens
<mhall119> basically we need to pass schedule data from the Scope to a Dash Renderer
<bobweaver> but that is where languages come into play
<bobweaver> that is what I was talking about before
<mhall119> currently everything get's passed over DBus using libdee
<bobweaver> import xml.etree.ElementTree as ET
<bobweaver> that is element
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntutv-dev-team/ubuntutv/unity-lens-video/view/head:/video/apps.py
<bobweaver> sont know if that will help
<bobweaver> correct mhall119
 * bobweaver needs to see grilo in action and not crashing all the time to be able to see how it works :/
<bobweaver> I like the idea
<bobweaver> just confused :)
<mhall119> bobweaver: the thing you and tgm4883 will need to work out, and work out with the other Unity devs too, is what fields and values to use in the libdee model for scheduling data
<mhall119> tgm4883 will put them into the model
<mhall119> you'll need a "program guide" render that uses that information to display them properly
<bobweaver> correct
<bobweaver> so I see in most lens that you tell it what type of cover flow you want to use
<mhall119> now, we can do this without a strict API, just cramming stuff directly into Dee and expecting it there on the other end, or we can build a proper, explicit API for it
<mhall119> the first doesn't require working with the Unity devs and defining a spec, the second does
<bobweaver> why dont I just make new cover flow (sdata) and then one can call that when modeling lens ?
<mhall119> bobweaver: you can, but you'll need more than just title, description and icon to display the schedule table
<bobweaver> example
<mhall119> you'll need start_time, end_time at the very least
<bobweaver> cats.append (Unity.Category.new ("cahnel1", icon, Unity.CategoryRenderer.SDATA_TILE))
<mhall119> probably channel as well
<mhall119> you wouldn't want channels defined by category
<bobweaver> use catagories or something to call in lens but that would be 10000's of catagories
<mhall119> categories are hard-coded, they don't get changed dynamically
<mhall119> so the TV lens might have a "Live" category, that has the schedule renderer, and a "Recorded" category that just uses coverflow
<bobweaver> but they do receive things  (Unity.Category.new)  << bad example
<mhall119> Unity only reads category information when it loads the lens
<mhall119> you have to restart Unity to add or remove categories
<bobweaver> er
<bobweaver> good point
<bobweaver> this is hard
<bobweaver> much easier in 2d lol
<bobweaver> there are a couple of things that I still must learn about unity 3d
<mhall119> it's not easier in 2d
<mhall119> they just cheated for the demo and didn't make it a proper Unity scode and renderer
<bobweaver> in qml we use JS to make a function to make a new page render by its self
<mhall119> scope
<bobweaver> ok let me try to explain where I am comming from
<bobweaver> Myth tv has services that render xml about all data on channels and info abou thaat channel icons ect
<bobweaver> if we can use asyncronistic sync's with  that then it should be easy to make channel info and what not
<bobweaver> getting it to play when clicked on the other hand there we have to wait upstream
<bobweaver> rrecording and all that it can do
<bobweaver> but getting to play live it will not
<bobweaver> att
<bobweaver> so maybe just making a program that reads all that and then sticking that inn the dash
<bobweaver> hackey but would work
<mhall119> ideally the Dash and Renderer wouldn't know or care about Grillo
<mhall119> it would get a list of programs and their start and end times, and it'll build a schedule table using that data
<bobweaver> untill I understand grilo I can not program for it
<mhall119> you shouldn't need to when making the Dash and renderers
<bobweaver> correct (and it'll build a schedule table using that data)
<mhall119> you should only need to care about Scopes and Dee models
 * bobweaver needs to study more 3d code it is confusing and hard 
<bobweaver> it is just hard because there is SO much more code
<bobweaver> like 5 pages = 10 because of headers that menas that 10 pages to every One in Qml
<bobweaver> just saying
<mhall119> yeah, I understand
<bobweaver> also elemnts and functions and all that are much easier to read
<mhall119> I love Python for a reason ;)
<bobweaver> :)
<mhall119> obviously not for memory usage and speed though
<bobweaver> correct btw mhall119  here anything about lens going to vala ?
<bobweaver> default that is ?
<mhall119> bobweaver: Vala or C
<bobweaver> 50 scopes = almost 2 gigs ram python
<mhall119> they want to phase out python ones
<mhall119> yeah
<bobweaver> idel
<mhall119> basically anything small and fast
<bobweaver> canonical should hire david calle
<mhall119> they contracted him to write the videos lens
<bobweaver> yeah that is what he told me.
<mhall119> I talked to him a bit about porting python stuff to Vala or C
<mhall119> we'll probably organize a big outreach campaign after the new year
<bobweaver> the main reason that I say that canonical should hire david is because he cares about the lens and scopes he makes tons of them. maybe even more then any one else
<bobweaver> cool about the outreach
<bobweaver> so One the good News side of things
<bobweaver> I have almost finished render 'feel' of dash for form.factor.tv
<bobweaver> it is real hackey but I will push code on Thursday
<mhall119> feel?
<bobweaver> liike what you see when you look at dash
<bobweaver> I have it set so that everything runs rendercoverflow
<bobweaver> and made different camara views
<bobweaver> also had to make hack away a bunch @ lens bar result render ect
<bobweaver> to make all fit to screen nice
<bobweaver> it kinda looks like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcepB1E1lX0&feature=g-upl
<bobweaver> no 180 though and icons are not that big
<bobweaver> I added keybord layout but dont work and also tried to hack selected view but not working also
<bobweaver> :/
<bobweaver> "Kinda looks like this"  *kinda*=keyword there
<bobweaver> but on launch of app windows do not work because of code (if force_tv)
<bobweaver> /TODO - we should be able to pass in a monitor so that we can make the window
<bobweaver>     //the size of the monitor and position the window on the monitor correctly.
<bobweaver>     UnityStandaloneTV *standalone_runner = new UnityStandaloneTV();
<bobweaver>     wt = nux::CreateNuxWindow("standalone-unity-tv",
<bobweaver>                               display_width, display_height,
<bobweaver>                               (no_window_decorations) ? nux::WINDOWSTYLE_NOBORDER : nux::WINDOWSTYLE_NORMAL,
<bobweaver>                               0, /* no parent */
<bobweaver>                               false,
<bobweaver>                               &UnityStandaloneTV::InitWindowThread,
<bobweaver>                               standalone_runner);
<bobweaver> Also on good news
<bobweaver> PPA for Mock up should be done by tonight
<bobweaver> https://launchpad.net/~josephjamesmills/+archive/ubuntutv
<bobweaver> I do think that this a great idea and will save time and draw maybe one or more people in
<bobweaver> demos that community runs ect
<tgm4883> mhall119, bobweaver sorry, back
<mhall119> np
<tgm4883> bobweaver, I've already got it parsing the XML, I was just worried about how long it takes to do that in python vs C++
<bobweaver> not sure what you mean ?
<tgm4883> bobweaver, My plan is to pass Channel/Title/Subtitle/StartTime/EndTime to the program guide
<bobweaver> icon ? also would be cool
<tgm4883> actually, a few more things
<tgm4883> icon/programID
<bobweaver> can you make me list of things ? when you get chance
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  think about it like this
<tgm4883> so if Unity won't be able to parse the XML, then that answers my question
<bobweaver> if you where making a lens for channel info but you just wanted to have in reg lens
<bobweaver> Tile horizontal that is ^^
<bobweaver> all I am doing is making New coverflow that can then be called from the lens itsself
<bobweaver> sorry ram is at max atm so hard to type things and switch windows
<bobweaver> we are going to need a couple of lens for that if I am correct
<bobweaver> sorry scopes
<bobweaver> one ) time and date
<tgm4883> I've not got any experience with lens, just scopes
<bobweaver> two) plating times metadata ect
<bobweaver> ahh cool tgm4883  lets look at a instance of how one can tell to render different
<mhall119> bobweaver: tgm4883: so the Lens says what Renderer to use for a given category, and the Scope says what category a given Result item should be placed in
<bobweaver> ^^
<tgm4883> unless we're breaking channels into groups, I don't think there would be multiple catagories?
<bobweaver> not yet  at least we are going to need ... let me get code example
<bobweaver> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1370717/
<bobweaver> so there will be on catagorie in channel called well channel
<bobweaver> and Unity will know that if that render is called then use this file (Channel.cpp)
<bobweaver> instead of say Tile horizonal
<tgm4883> ok
<bobweaver> or tile vertical ect
<bobweaver> it is going to be hackey and I am sure that there is better way but heck if I know what it is
<tgm4883> I'm looking at the lens tutorial on the wiki now
<tgm4883> ok, so I define a channel category, then just pass it the data we've set above?
<bobweaver> just like a real lens
<bobweaver> so take myth scope
<tgm4883> well yea, but I've not made a real lens before
<bobweaver> ahh
<bobweaver> that is ok
<bobweaver> let me find example
<tgm4883> yea it looks pretty simple
<tgm4883> it seems we'll need different views if it's showing everything or if there is a search term present
<bobweaver> http://paste.ubuntu.com/1370724/
<bobweaver> Unity.CategoryRenderer.HORIZONTAL_TILE
<tgm4883> so then it would be  Unity.CategoryRenderer.CHANNEL
<bobweaver> correct
<bobweaver> or CHANNEL_TILE
<tgm4883> ok, so then how are you thinking we should handle it when people search?
<bobweaver> and any lens could be then changed to that and it would just render in channnel
<bobweaver> it will just search just like the normal dash does
<bobweaver> there is 5 results I think
<tgm4883> I don't think that translates well for a program guide
<bobweaver> it is in one of the Filer.cpp files
<tgm4883> if I search for Castle, how do you only show the relevant results from the program guide grid?
<bobweaver> think of each item as a card
<bobweaver> the card is so wide
<bobweaver> in case of horizonal tile it is 52 x 52 or something like that
<tgm4883> ok, so lets say a card is 52 wide, and it represents 30 minutes
<bobweaver> in channel it will be  real long X 52
<mhall119> tgm4883: the program guide renderer can still filter based on search results
<bobweaver> that is where I am also stuck ;/
<mhall119> we'll just need a smart way of doing it
<tgm4883> mhall119, that's what I'm getting at
<mhall119> but it's not necessary either
<mhall119> we can only send program guide results where there is no search term
<tgm4883> we need a way to collapse the results so they are still readable and make sense in a guide
<bobweaver> if program is 30 minutes long that is the part that I am stuck atm
<tgm4883> mhall119, no, I think a search ability is required
<bobweaver> going to have to pass more over libunity maybe ?
<bobweaver> I will look more into timing of how things are going to result them selfs
<tgm4883> bobweaver, I was thinking that each card is 30 minutes, and that an hour long show may span 2 cards
<mhall119> bobweaver: we're going to have to do that no matter what I think
<tgm4883> and that a channel would have many many cards listed
<tgm4883> so a search term of Castle
<tgm4883> would remove the unnecessary cards from view, but then how do we collapse that into something readable
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  now switch the back to Unity.CategoryRenderer.HORIZONTAL_TILE and they are all just 1/2 cards
<bobweaver> at 52x52
<bobweaver> so when you search it will be the same
<bobweaver> as if searching using the myth.acope
<bobweaver> scope*
<tgm4883> can we do that if there is a search term? so no search term == renderer=CHANNEL, yes search term == renderer = HORIZONTAL_TILE?
<bobweaver> no that is not how search works  in unity
<bobweaver> so there is a whole section two different things
<bobweaver> you can take searchbar out when ever you like there is function for that
<tgm4883> well we need to be able to search the program guide data
<bobweaver> I should make a chart of how each page correspond to code
<tgm4883> DVR makes no sense if you can't search for a program to record
<bobweaver> yeah that will be passed that the uri ect
<bobweaver> so if I type in  "sout"     I will get all the programs that have sout   in there uri and also in metadata ect
<bobweaver> just like how search is used with all lens
<bobweaver> now time and stuff like thtat will not work at 1st
<tgm4883> yea, I get that
<bobweaver> maybe I am missing something ?
<tgm4883> it's the presentation I'm worried about
<tgm4883> how it will look to the user
<tgm4883> eg. program guide is basically a fancy spreadsheet
<bobweaver> the "card's"  will just stack
<bobweaver> one on top of wach other
<bobweaver> each *
<tgm4883> so if you remove 80% of the cells in a spreadsheet randomly, how do you collapse and show the rest of the data so it still makes sense in respect to row/column
<bobweaver> and what is not in search will be gone
<bobweaver> that is wrote into the search functions and elements of Unity
<tgm4883> I suppose it's possible to not define time on the X axis, and instead define it in each show info
<bobweaver> could be on_search : close time
<bobweaver> would have to be massive ammounts of more code then that but you see ?
<bobweaver> so when I type in sout    all things that match that will will show but anything else will not be there
<bobweaver> as far as time goes if there is 3 south parks
<tgm4883> well, lets be clear, I'm not looking at this from a code point of view, as I'm just going to feed you the info we defined and let the renderer display it however you want
<bobweaver> one at 9 am one at 9pm  maybe we can pass that somehow
<bobweaver> I see what you mean
<bobweaver> er
<tgm4883> I'm just trying to define how it's going to look to the user when they search for something, in an attempt to assist you in how that needs to be done
<bobweaver> ahh
<tgm4883> the way mythweb handles that (and IIRC, in the mythtv frontend is the same), search results don't look like a program guide at all
<bobweaver> [    channel name and icon   ][                                 program name                      ]
<tgm4883> which makes sense, as search results don't make sense to be sorted by channel, but do make sense to be in chronological order I think
<bobweaver> [    channel name and icon   ][                                 program name                      ]
<tgm4883> or perhaps the other way around
<bobweaver> so if I search sout park
<bobweaver> [    channel name and icon   ][                                 south park                     ]
<bobweaver> [    channel name and icon   ][                                 south park                     ]
<bobweaver> but that is all that shows up
<tgm4883> bobweaver, well here is my question then
<bobweaver> nothing more nothing less
<bobweaver> next cycle is next cycle ;)
<tgm4883> [    channel name and icon   ][                                 Castle                     ]
<tgm4883> [    channel name and icon   ][                                 England's Castles                                ]
<tgm4883> [    channel name and icon   ][  the don castle show    ]
<bobweaver> correct
<bobweaver> I can make maybe like that
<tgm4883> so searching for castle lists those three results, all of different lengths
<bobweaver> correct
<bobweaver> with the data that TIME_STARTS or what ever it is in servies
<bobweaver> services xml
<tgm4883> bobweaver, so then we'll need to put the starttime/endtime in the inforamtion listed there?
<bobweaver> nope previews
<tgm4883> hmm
<bobweaver> but that is just this cycle
<bobweaver> unless if I get more time
<bobweaver> I am running out of money so I need to go back to work :/
<bobweaver> so I am trying to say hey I can only get this much done this cycle
<bobweaver> but that said tgm4883  that is def in back of head with timing
<tgm4883> we're going to need to put the starttime/endtime in the program guide
<tgm4883> not previews
<bobweaver> well cycle 2 then
<bobweaver> atm this is all the time that I have
<tgm4883> unless, can you put the time blocks above the program guide?
<bobweaver> could that is idea
<tgm4883> eg. 8:00 AM, 8:30 AM, 9:00 AM, etc
<tgm4883> and then make that disappear from search results?
<bobweaver> and then catagories_ TIME
<bobweaver> yes when search is renders it goes away
<tgm4883> YES, I think that would be perfect then
<tgm4883> as it answers both use cases (searchers vs browsers)
<bobweaver> right click  buttons for record and remind ect
<bobweaver> yeah I thought about that and mythweb
<tgm4883> right click to preview, where you can get more info and set the recordings
<bobweaver> just like how I have on tv at home
<bobweaver> but not enough time
<bobweaver> correct about previews
<bobweaver> and if you would like to gimp up something I will make like picture
<bobweaver> for orpviews ^^
<bobweaver> previews *
<tgm4883> so I'll pass you
<tgm4883> ChanID, ProgramID, Starttime, Endtime, Description
<tgm4883> I think that is all you would need right?
<bobweaver> chan icon
<bobweaver> chan name
<bobweaver> but yeah that is it
<tgm4883> Is there a way I can pass  you that info at a different time?
<bobweaver> sure
<tgm4883> eg. Pass you chan icon, chan name, chan id
<tgm4883> then when giving you the program data, just give you chan id
<tgm4883> and have you match it up?
<tgm4883> otherwise, I'm going to pass you the same chan icon/chan name for each show on a channel for 2 weeks
<tgm4883> so several hundred times per channel
<tgm4883> and you only need it once
<bobweaver> yeah that is correct
<bobweaver> lets think about that
<bobweaver> you should think about it as a single card for this time beeing
<bobweaver> because when passing to previews
<bobweaver> that is Do we have chanen name and icon in previews
<bobweaver> if not then you can pass once
<bobweaver> well also with
<tgm4883> bobweaver, possibly, but we can get that from the backend at preview time
<bobweaver> sure then
<tgm4883> I suppose I can just pass it to you for every program, and you can detect if you already got it for that program ID and just not use it if you already have it
<bobweaver> I have to figure out how I am going to render channel ids and icons to left hand side
<tgm4883> that might actually be easier and make more sense
<bobweaver> keep in mind we can cache things
<tgm4883> right, I'm just passing the URL to get the image from the backend
<bobweaver> not that imporant
<bobweaver> cacheing that is
<bobweaver> yup
<tgm4883> so if you want to just say "i've already got this, drop the URL", that sounds good
<bobweaver> just like mythtv.scope
<tgm4883> so I've got mythtvservicesapi.py getting the program guide now, so we can test this when you need to. I'll need to add a little work to the scope to pass just the stuff we specified
<tgm4883> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mythbuntu/mythbuntu/unity-scope-mythtv/view/head:/src/mythtvservicesapi.py
<tgm4883> as you can see, I've still got a bunch of services to implement
<bobweaver> but it is a great start
<bobweaver> we are moving along
<bobweaver> I will be pushing some code on thursday unity3d I hope
<tgm4883> ok
<bobweaver> I have to work sometime this week so I hope that I do not get called in that much for ubuntu tv sake but for money and also cigg's I hope that I do get called in
<tgm4883> If I understand lenses/scopes, I'll have to make another one just for program guide data
<bobweaver> correct but you can still called shared lib of mythavi.py in includes
<bobweaver> python can do that right ?
<tgm4883> yea
<tgm4883> it's a main feature, write once, use everywhere :)
<bobweaver> a programming lang that does not do that is  a programming lang that I do not want to use
<bobweaver> I just could never get over the whole No {} in functions
<bobweaver> or anything
<tgm4883> heh
<tgm4883> whitespace FTW?
<bobweaver> but py is super duper cool fast to write also easy to read
<bobweaver> much more clear and easy to read then say c++ or anything that has to do with nux or some assembly code
<bobweaver> But again tgm4883  I am v.unsure as to how grilo can help with any of this. I understand what it does just not how :/
<bobweaver> If it is going to be scope or if it is going to be wrote into unity or if it is just passing info via dbus  if there is deamon ect
<bobweaver> Saviq,  or jhodapp  maybe you can explain this better ?
<jhodapp> bobweaver, what's the question?
<bobweaver> I am v.unsure as to how grilo can help with any of this. I understand what it does just not how :/ If it is going to be scope or if it is going to be wrote into unity or if it is just passing info via dbus  if there is deamon ect
<bobweaver> basically like how is it going to be implanted
<tgm4883> bobweaver, my understanding of the earlier discussion, is you don't have to do anything with grilo
<tgm4883> that is up to scopes writers
<bobweaver> Oh so one will be able to use in there scopes if they choose to call it in just like a shared lib ?
<jhodapp> bobweaver, in the Nux context?
<bobweaver> jhodapp,  I am just confused as to how it is going to be used : like do people call it from scope ?  if so it is just a shared lib say #include grilo    or will this be wrote into libuntiy ? ect
<jhodapp> bobweaver, shared library
<bobweaver> Oh I see
<bobweaver> thanks
<jhodapp> it's a C library, plus plugins, with several language bindings
<jhodapp> bobweaver, why don't you download it and try out the grilo test-ui?
<jhodapp> that'll help you understand it better
<bobweaver> I must have missed that part when phone call came in earlier thanks jhodapp
<jhodapp> np bobweaver
<bobweaver> I tried but it gets 404
<jhodapp> what does?
<bobweaver> on all plugins that I build
<jhodapp> bobweaver, try the PPA for it then
<bobweaver> Ok I will try
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-20
<kieppie1> howdy
<kieppie1> I see that UTV is gaining momentum, as is Steam.
<kieppie1> Is there any chance I can install it on my x86 64-bit HTPC (PPA), or will I have to wait?
<smartboyhw> Ouch I almost forgotten about Ubuntu TV>.<
<smartboyhw> Hi bobweaver how are you hacking Unity eh???
<bobweaver> hi smartboyhw
<mhall119> smartboyhw: hey, you don't need membership in ~ubuntu-tv-developers to contribute to the project
<smartboyhw> mhall119, no I do agree....However it seems quite weird now, when I look at the branch....
<mhall119> that's only for managing the LP group, uploading to the PPA, and pushing to truni
<mhall119> trunk
<bobweaver> code should be landing v.soon
<smartboyhw> bobweaver, yeah
<bobweaver> mhall119,  I made some good advancements last night
<bobweaver> smartboyhw,  yeah all of us have been working hard on this
<bobweaver> crud I just got called into work !
<bobweaver> er
<smartboyhw> bobweaver, oh no
 * bobweaver walks around real fast and says where is his coffee 
<smartboyhw> LOL
<mhall119> bobweaver: on the 3d port?
<bobweaver> unity 7.X
<bobweaver> if that is what you mean
<mhall119> yeah, cool, looking forward to seeing it
<bobweaver> mhall119,  it is nothing special but it is a start
<smartboyhw> bobweaver, remember about the guy called "nothingspecial" on the forums? :P
 * bobweaver has nothing but good things to say about nothingspeical great person 
<mhall119> tgm4883: bobweaver: I just wanted to let you guys know that you're both doing awesome work, and I'm glad that you decided to put your energy into the TV project
 * cm-t +1
<cm-t> hi
<cm-t> bobweaver: anoter LUG in France want to make a showcase (too far from paris) as you can see on g+
<cm-t> I think we are going to use your ppa, but does it need to be 11.10 ? (he told me he got 12.04 right now)
<bobweaver> hey mhall119  Thanks you are also doing a great job !
<bobweaver> Hi cm-t
<bobweaver> sorry  I was at work all day
<bobweaver> ppa is only for partys and is also only for 11.10
<bobweaver> Mockup ppa that is
<bobweaver> It is not done yet should be done by tonight
<bobweaver> just have to make package for create-tmb and createfan-tmb and also a metapackage for Ubuntu TV should be done in like 6 hours or so if I do not fall asleep 1st that is
<bobweaver> manual labor sucks
<bobweaver> but I for real need to relax for a minute and do no coding my code would be horrible at this point due to the fact that I worked 5 straight hours of manual labor
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-21
<mhall119> sweet, we got a G+ vanity URL: google.com/+UbuntuTV
<mhall119> https://plus.google.com/+UbuntuTV/posts
<mhall119> http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/20/3670940/michael-powell-fcc-chariman-cable-companies-mercy-contet you guys mind find that article interesting
<tgm4883> mhall119, what does it take to get one of those?
<tgm4883> verified status?
<mhall119> tgm4883: I don't know, I just got an email from Google saying it was available and pre-approveed for the UbuntuTV page
<mhall119> all I had to do was accept it
<bobweaver> er I got called into work again =( looks like I am going to have to push back code until friday or sat that is if I do not get called in again
<mhall119> bobweaver: no worries, enjoy some holiday time and come back refreshed on Monday
<bobweaver> what do you all think to the point enough ?    http://imagebin.org/236722
<tgm4883> looks good
 * bobweaver is thinking about calling in sick today 
<bobweaver> I dont feel like ripping up a bunch of marley
<mhall119> bobweaver: nice warning
<mhall119> tgm4883: does Myth have any way of suggesting things to watch based on past viewing?
<mhall119> even if it's just something else in you database
<tgm4883> mhall119, yes/no
<tgm4883> mhall119, there is a watched list
<tgm4883> err, watch list
<mhall119> tgm4883: does it record a history of watching activity?
<tgm4883> which is an ordered list of things you should watch, based on your previous viewing habits (eg. How long after something was recorded that you watched it)
<mhall119> ah, ok
<tgm4883> http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Watch_List
<tgm4883> mhall119, outside of that, mythtv has plugin support. There is a plugin for an older version of mythtv called mythmagic
<tgm4883> http://sourceforge.net/projects/mythmagic/
<tgm4883> I've not used it, but it's a recommendation engine
<mhall119> ok
<tgm4883> it's for mythtv 0.25, and apparently the author doesn't feel the need to update it for future versions. IDK what work would be required to do so
<mhall119> so something I'd like us to think about is how to provide the following experience:
<mhall119> The user turns on the TV, and it is immediately showing something of interest to them, at such a point into the program that they can decide if they want to watch it or watch something else (if they want to watch it, obviously we can let them start from the beginning)
<tgm4883> spoiler alert?
<mhall119> not a tip priority, but keep it in the back of your mind, because I think that would set us apart from other smart TV offerings
 * bobweaver calls in sick 
<mhall119> tgm4883: maybe, but only if they watch too much before deciding
<tgm4883> mhall119, theres two issues with that I see
<tgm4883> 1) you'll need a way to figure out what they want to see for future programs
<tgm4883> 2) you'll need to dedicated a tuner for that
<tgm4883> mhall119, unless you are specifically talking about already recorded content
<mhall119> tgm4883: I'm talking about already recorded
<tgm4883> ok, so where does " at such a point into the program that they can decide if they want to watch it" come into it?
<tgm4883> if it's already recorded, why start in the middle when they turn on the TV?
<tgm4883> just to give the illusion of livetv?
<mhall119> tgm4883: for most stuff, there's nothing at all worth watching in the first couple minutes, nothing to let the person decide "Yeah, that looks interesting"
<mhall119> so not so much to give the illusion of livetv, but to give the same decision-making ability/experience as livetv
<tgm4883> I'm not a fan of live TV ;)
<tgm4883> I see two ways of handling this
<tgm4883> 1) we start playing the top of the watch list at 1.5 minutes into the show
<tgm4883> 2) we popup a preview with a screenshot 1.5 minutes in (or use trailer playback for video) with episode info
<mhall119> I like #1
<tgm4883> mhall119, 3rd issue, this is only going to work for people with HDMI/Display Port
<tgm4883> otherwise how do we detect the tv is turned on?
<mhall119> though instead of a fixed time, maybe a % time, since a 2-hour movie generally has a longer lead in than a 30 minute program
<tgm4883> 2% then
<mhall119> tgm4883: when I said "TV" I really meant "Device running UbuntuTV"
<tgm4883> ok
<tgm4883> this may only reliably work in the US
<mhall119> why is that?
<tgm4883> mhall119, ask Australians how on time their TV shows are
<mhall119> why, do they get theirs on time? Because we don't
<tgm4883> mhall119, they sometimes have to buffer shows to start/end +/- 15 minutes
<mhall119> yeah, I've seen a bunch of DVRs in the US do the same
<mhall119> though usualy only +/- 5 minutes, not 15
<tgm4883> mhall119, actually ours is pretty good if you have good guide data
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  I was just thinking of something. has to do with other langs  say that I am german and I need german xml is the tags in  english still ?
<tgm4883> looking in the guide, shows don't start on the hour/half hour, they are listed as when they start (eg. 8:03 PM)
<tgm4883> bobweaver, I believe the tags are in english still, but I'm not going to be parsing XML anymore
<tgm4883> I just learned that the services API will return JSON
<tgm4883> which i've not worked with, but am told it's much easier to work with in python
<tgm4883> (eg. it makes lists and dicts for me)
<tgm4883> but IIRC, yea it should be fine in other languages
<tgm4883> mhall119, IMO, file a wishlist bug. That sounds like the proper place for things we aren't currently working on
<mhall119> tgm4883: yeah, JSON is easy in python
<bobweaver> whatever's clever
<bobweaver> as long as you can pass data in the lens and scope
<bobweaver> Right now I am trying to get raring going but lets just say that things are though ;)
<bobweaver> I need more ram !
<bobweaver> always
<bobweaver> 4 gigs is not cutting it for the work that I am doing
<mhall119> bobweaver: just so you know, I'm still working on getting information about being able to pass more data between scopes and the dash, it looks like they're already planning on something that should work for us
<bobweaver> sweet !
<bobweaver> Gezz after 7 builds of Unity 2d I finally realized that I am spelling sensors wrong !
<bobweaver> sensor vs sensors
<bobweaver> barhh
<mhall119> another interesting article: http://www.theverge.com/2012/11/12/3633984/future-of-tv-over-the-top
<bobweaver> Ok I think that MockUP PPA is done I need to test But I *think* that it is done
<bobweaver> packages are still building on LP
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-22
<bobweaver> Well unity build-deps are all effed up
<bobweaver> I can not code like this
<bobweaver> everything keeps changing ever 2 minutes and people keep fucking things up
<bobweaver> </rant>
<bobweaver> strequal true bull s^&*
<bobweaver> what's up with that ?
<tgm4883> bobweaver, I'm assuming the build dependencies don't affect your code, just that you can't build right?
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  no it is because I cleaned it
<bobweaver> and now everything is effed
<tgm4883> cleaned it?
<bobweaver> sudo make clean
<bobweaver> removed cmakecache ect
<bobweaver> so this is what is going on
<tgm4883> yea, you might have to explain what that means to me :)
<tgm4883> <-- Python :)
<tgm4883> I don't deal with make/configure files etc
<bobweaver> I can not build becuase it is calling all the wrong libs and a bool if statement was wrong in CmakeList.txt
<bobweaver> ah h
<bobweaver> yeah it is not a big well kinda not a big deal
<tgm4883> so the bool if statement is the bug?
<bobweaver> I went from 12.10 to 13.04 and everything needed to cleaned and re-built
<bobweaver> but then with will not config up because wrong version number and yeah a bug in translation if statement
<tgm4883> bobweaver, honestly, that is kinda expected I would think when going from a major release to another major release
<tgm4883> so that shouldn't happen going from a 13.04 build to another 13.04 build
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  yeah but it should not be like that.  all I did was apt-get source unity
<bobweaver> and apt-get build-dep unity
<bobweaver> then try to config and errors out
<bobweaver> I have not even added my old code yet
<tgm4883> bobweaver, would it make sense to pull unity source into our own branch, get everything working there, then merge back?
<tgm4883> oh
<tgm4883> so unity just fails to build by itself then?
<bobweaver> Bingo
<tgm4883> bobweaver, is this a known issue to the unity devs?
<bobweaver> well config
<bobweaver> I have not even got to build yet
<tgm4883> you're subscribed to the unity mailing list?
<tgm4883> and ubuntu dev?
<bobweaver> yeah I did
<bobweaver> dude helped me in #ubuntu-unity thanks to popey
<tgm4883> ok, so I'd shoot an email over there if you haven't already
<tgm4883> ah ok
<bobweaver> also popey  settled me down
<tgm4883> i'm surprised popey could help, you know being british and all ;)
<bobweaver> I will just fix and push branch
<bobweaver> yeah so think of building unity like this
<bobweaver> get source _> builddeps_> configure it(cmake(where I am stuck fixing things)_> build unity (make )-> hack unity -> install unity (make install).
<popey> bobweaver, sil2100 works on my team
<tgm4883> sorry popey, I don't see daviey around that much and I usually direct that stuff at him :)
<popey> I'll proxy it to him
<tgm4883> and he give me crap about being american
<tgm4883> thanks :)
<bobweaver> popey,  again thanks again for helping me and asking me to chill
<popey> np dude, don't worry about it, i understand it's gonna be frustrating
<tgm4883> alright, time to go eat a giant bird
<bobweaver> tbh sometimes it is a way to get people to see that you vare for real
<bobweaver> s|vare|are
<bobweaver> not a good way but a way
<popey> happy ham day chaps :)
<bobweaver> ok so after looking at debian/control file looks like 2d might be coming back  ?
<bobweaver> ohhh weeee what up with that .. what up with that
<bobweaver> nvm transition dummy package I should rm and send patch . lol got my hopes up
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-23
<mhall119> bobweaver: were you ever able to get Unity trunk compiling?
<bobweaver> yup
<mhall119> bobweaver: great
<bobweaver> but I am spending more time fixing unity then I am making new code :/
<mhall119> bobweaver: are you working form the unity trunk, or the branch of it I made for TV?
<bobweaver> I am using the bzr lp:unity
<bobweaver> on raring
<mhall119> ok, I'm going to update the TV branch with the latest from there
<bobweaver> ok
<bobweaver> mhall119,  it was just that stagging has many different libs that I do not think are going to make it into main I could be wrong
<bobweaver> mhall119,  you know of anyone to talk to about lightdm remote login ?
<bobweaver> like how it works ?
<mhall119> bobweaver: david barcth is heading that one up
<mhall119> barth
<bobweaver> thanks mhall119
<mhall119> is there something you need to know about it?
<bobweaver> bzr: ERROR: [Errno 28] No space left on device     :: time to clean house
<mhall119> bobweaver: I hate it when that happens
<bobweaver> rm all the stuff on desktop alone (old builds ect) got me 26 gigs back
<bobweaver> ermm http://paste.ubuntu.com/1380291/
<mhall119> bobweaver: hmm, maybe it's using /tmp/ while it creates the branch?
 * mhall119 doesn't know what overflow fstype is
<bobweaver> no deals for the wicked ;/ I am going to try a different branch and look at .bzr log
<bobweaver> mhall119,  do you know where I can find all the properties for namespace unity and dash ?
<bobweaver> like that api thingy that you where making ? maybe
<mhall119> bobweaver: the API website?  that only worked with the GObject exported data
<mhall119> bobweaver: but if that's what you need, the static version is here: http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/c/Unity-6.0.html
<bobweaver> thanks
<bobweaver> http://unity.ubuntu.com/nux/d7/dde/namespaceunity_1_1dash.html#a40054a3e5c131dca40af497fb872aecb   << that is 100% what I was looking for
<mhall119> ah, nux
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-24
<bobweaver> OMG IT IS WORKING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<bobweaver> I AM A  GENIUS !
<bobweaver> I also dont know how to type with out caps
<bobweaver> Not really lol
<bobweaver> Stupid people are pissing me off. I am about to stop all this people and there comments like"thanks for nothing " & "Like this hack"  I can not do anything with out 20 people telling me that I am doing it all wrong
<bobweaver> 1 thing
<bobweaver> I AM NOT GETTING PAID TO DO THIS
<bobweaver> I am gambling all or nothing and these pukes put me down over and over again, watch me find out that there canonical peps
<popey> O_O
<bobweaver> Have you all seen this ? http://devxdev.com/utv   it is a 1st for me
<popey> nope
<popey> interesting
<simosx> It's a mockup of Ubuntu TV.  http://devxdev.com/ has more.
<cm-t> interesting :)
<bobweaver> I really like the idea of having a channel called the Ubuntu channel that for current events that Ubuntu is doing
<cm-t> in gecko menu opening even when mouse is far
#ubuntu-tv 2012-11-25
 * bobweaver needs someone to set up a meeting for next Friday , @ 1pm eastern standard time , last time that I (well last 2 X) tried to do this I failed both times 
<bobweaver> so if anyone would like to set that up that would be cool. If I do not hear back from anyone on this in a couple of hours I will put it on the mailing list to see if some one there wants to do it
<bobweaver> Some of the things that need or at least I think need to be talked about are , documentation , I got a email asking "How I can help with documentation"  I would also like to talk about timeline of intergration of 3d
<bobweaver> thanks
<bobweaver> I am off to watch football and will not be around till late tonight and also have to work mon-->thu next week
<bobweaver> or this week Oo  see why I should not do google calender lol
