#ubuntu-meeting 2005-02-05
<opi> hi makpo
<opi> s/makpo/mako
<mako> opi: hey there
<opi> mako, I've made it ;>
<opi> mako, not like the last time
<zul> hi everyone
<mako> so, if people want to take a look at my draft stuff for the nm process, i've got it online here:
<mako> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewMembersMaintainersDraft
<mako> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewMemberProcessDraft
<mako> i'm finishing the maintainer once right now
<opi> mako, sounds very similar to MOTU draft
<zul> mako: looks easy enough to follow 
<opi> mako, if I had to include my posting to ubuntu-*@lists.ubuntu.com, I would have to quit my job ;-)
<fabbione> guys.. i am sorry i won't be at the CC meeting
<fabbione> mako: if there is something important about the announce i am sure you will be wise enough to handle it properly :-))
<opi> fabbione, no worry, Mako will do raport anyhow ;))
<fabbione> cya
<opi> ta-ta
<jbailey> mako: Wow, this is so much clearer than the jumble of conflicting stuff that was there before.
<opi> jbailey, it sounded like: work for use, if you'll be lazy, off with your head :)
<crimsun> excellent, mako.
<opi> s/for use/for us
<jbailey> opi: The gnome foundation also has a similar policy to that.  They review your status every couple of years, and if you're behind they contact you saying yuo have a year to start contributing again.
<jbailey> That way folks to dissapear for a year to have a kid, travel, etc. don't come back to find themselves removed.
<opi> jbailey, sounds ok
<opi> mako, I have already signed for Mentro program ;)
<opi> mako, it's semimentroprogramiinventedmyself :)
<mako> also here: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewMaintainerProcessDraft
<opi> mako, Kubuntu guys agreed to crashtest my packages
<mako> jbailey: i just added "Membership lasts for two years, and is renewable. If you don't renew your status as a maintainer you will join the "inactive memberas" list. Membership can be reactivated at any time after it has lapsed."
<opi> It was there before, IIRC :)
<jbailey> mako: Nice.
<jbailey> mako: In NewMaintainerProcessDraft: "While many aspire to selection as an Ubuntu maintainer, only a few will be selected."  It would be interesting to see in a year if this statement is actually true.
<mako> everything here has been talked about and agreed to before.. nobody wrote it al in one place yet
* mako needs to look through that page more carefully
<mako> i took most of that page from the current maintainer page on the website
<mako> which is what we're replacing because it's highly "maintains packages" oriented, etdc
<jbailey> mako: NewMaintainerProcessDraft says "The Community Council will not appoint someone as a maintainer until..." but NewMembersMaintainersDrag says "Must be approved by the Ubuntu Technical Board"
<mako> jbailey: the first one is off
<mako> i'll fix
<Kamion> Are we expecting sabdfl today?
<mako> Kamion: i should call him
<mako> but we should give him a couple minutes first
<mako> mdz: look over the drafts linked from the agenda :)
<Kamion> pinged elmo
<mdz> mako: sabdfl said he was writing stuff, too, did you guys combine your efforts?
<mako> mdz: no.. i had been working on this for a while
<mdz> mako: NewMembersMaintainersDraft is missing the elmo clause
<mako> mdz: go ahead and add it
<Kamion> the elmo clause?
<mdz> that the member->maintainer process should go through the CC as well as TB
<mako> wait.. that is there
<mako> mdz: it says all maintainers must be members
<mako> mdz: membership is a cc thing, maintainership is a tb thing
<elmo> mako: that's not what we originally discussed
<mdz> mako: right, which is not what we agreed upon in Mataro
<Kamion> erm, confused. how does that differ from what we agreed?
<mako> i built that from the mataro notes
<mdz> NewDevelopersAndMaintainers says that maintainers are approved by both
<mako> so i think there is some confusion
<mako> ah, ok
<mako> so you are saying that maintainers should be approved by the CC twice?
<mdz> point being that the CC's approval of someone as a member is not the same as approving them as a maintainer
<Kamion> that's a fair point, but I'm not sure how the TB's approval isn't adequate
<mdz> well, I I think I'm trying to state elmo's position from the last meeting, but I think I should rather leave it to him at this point
<mako> elmo: is that something you feel strongly about? having maintainers approved by the CC after membership?
<elmo> my concern is that the TB has one person who's actively involved, day-to-day in distro, to the degree where they'll be able to independently and adqueately judge a maintainer's worth
<elmo> TB+CC has 3
<elmo> and it was always my understanding that's how we were going to do stuff, unfortunately I was ill the day of the maintainer discussions in mataaro
<elmo> mako: I feel reasonably strongly about it, but OTOH, if everyone else disagrees I'm happt to shut up
<mako> i think if the tb is not adequately well suited to approve people based as maintainers for the distro, that's a problem that should be solved in the TB
<mako> but i suspect that they are
<mdz> I agree; in the current process, a majority of the TB is going to be lacking information about the candidate
<elmo> mako: how are the TB meant to judge candidates?
<mako> hmm..
<mdz> every time
<elmo> other than reviewing the work they've done?
<mako> elmo: the work they've done, recommendations/testimonials, cc approval for membership
<elmo> I don't think it's appropriate to insist the TB is staffed by people who follow the distro so closely they'd be able to tell that for any given maintainer
<elmo> mako: dude membership is so far removed from maintainership, it's not even funny
<mdz> approval for membership is an entirely different thing
<elmo> maintainer means global write to anything in main - essentialy unpeer-reviewed
<mako> right, i undrestand that
<mako> but its one piece that implies a certain level of sanity, that's why i mentioned it in a list
<elmo> so the CC approval for membership is _irrelevant_ when it comes to maintainership
<elmo> if I, as part of CC approve someone for membership, I sure as heck don't want to take that as implicit approval when the TB come to review someone as a maintainer
<mdz> a member could (and should, easily) be someone who helps out on the mailing lists or whatever
<elmo> s/take/taken/
<mdz> and doesn't actually write code at all
<Kamion> so the CC are essentially being co-opted as known-sane adjuncts to the TB for purposes of an extra check on maintainership approvals?
<Kamion> rather than it being a function of the CC as such
<elmo> Kamion: dude, this is NOT co-opting
<elmo> this is what we originally discussed
<Kamion> um, whatever, I don't think I meant what you thought I meant. :)
<elmo> i.e. pre-mataro.. I'm not suggesting something new here
<mdz> part of the concern stems from how TB and CC happen to be composed at present
<mako> mdz: right, i understand that
<Kamion> elmo: yes, I understand
<Kamion> what I was trying to say is that it doesn't sound like an intrinsic function of the CC, but the people on the CC happen to be useful to make the maintainership approval more robust
<mako> elmo: no, i understand that
<Kamion> at least that's what I'm getting from the above
<Kamion> (note I don't object, just trying to understand rationale)
<mako> elmo: the idea was always that maintainers would be approved by both, but that was also before we had membership pre-mataro
<mako> elmo: so when we introduced members, i was under the impression that the job of the two groups was sort of split. cc looked at membership stuff and the tb looked only at maintainer specific things
<elmo> Kamion: yes, basically
<opi> brb
<mako> elmo: so all mainainters still need approval by both groups
<mako> elmo: just at different stages
<mdz> we'll need to address the issue of the TB lacking information regardless
<mako> mdz: yes, of coursse
<Kamion> mako: I see what elmo means though, when somebody applies to be a member I'm not applying very strict criteria when I say yes
<elmo> if both the TB and CC are both not actively involved in the distro we still lose, but if we get to that stage, I think the whole idea needs revisited
<mako> Kamion: yes
<mdz> exactly
<Kamion> indeed
<elmo> (and by actively invovled, I'm not meaning to be denegrating (sp?) in anyway to the people who I think aren't)
* mako thinks
<opi> re
<mdz> given the written scope of the CC, it doesn't sound like they're inherently meant to be working day-to-day on the distribution
<elmo> or the TB?
<mdz> point
<elmo> maybe the "cleanest" solution is a delegated board of folks who do?
<elmo> specificaly for this task
<mdz> we'll just call them the New Maintainer team
* mdz gasps!
<Kamion> I'm a bit worried about committee overload though
<mako> i'm happy saying that even if we can't trust the TB to spend all of their time doing this, we should be able to trust them to ask or find out
<mako> that may be asking folks on the TB, etc
<mako> that is the whole "recommendations, etc" step
<mdz> Kamion: I think a good way to avoid that is to move the responsibility to the candidate
<mdz> they should come equipped with recommendations/testimonials/etc. from people with direct experience of their work
<elmo> mako: due respect, that sounds like dodging the issue to me
<elmo> "the TB aren't equipped to do this", "well they can ask the folks who are"
<mdz> tbh, approving new people is more a community issue than a technical issue
<mako> mdz: approving new people to upload into the distribution is what we're talkinga bout
<silb1> without considering the current membership of the TB, in an ideal world is that where the function belongs?
<mdz> mako: and that's also what I meant
<mako> mdz: you think?
<mdz> silb1: I'm starting to think no
<mdz> it's a character judgement, not a technical one
<elmo> there's technical stuff involved, e.g. review a candidates work?
<elmo> the problem is, I think it straddles both domains
<silb1> same question for the CC (ignore current membership of CC). Is that where it ideally belongs?
<mdz> technical ability is needed in order to understand their work, sure
<elmo> which is why it should, IMHO, either be in the domain of both committees or a dedicated one
<opi> I'm not a in a point for taking my voice, but anyone who want to be Maintainer, could be aproved by both. But not by the CC directly. CC would be asked by TB about this candidate.
<mako> elmo: well that's not *really* the problem. the problem is straddles both domains in such a way that has a different social requirement than just membership
<elmo> opi: again that seems like a run-around - if that's going to happen, why not make it explicit?
<mdz> opi: I think it is certainly a problem at this point to have to arrange to attend both meetings in order to proceed, but we can address that once we've decided who should be involved
<elmo> mdz: understand and judge?
<silb1> mako: if that's the problem, then that is also the sol'n. A joint decision, wholly different than membership
<mako> silb1: which is what elmo is suggesting, and i think he's convincing. i'm sort of trying to avoid death by committee but if it's worth it, it's worth it
<elmo> yes, I think it should be entirely divorced from membership, other than membership being  a prerequiste
<mdz> elmo: do you think that copies of their last 10 uploads should be brought to the meetings? ;-)
<mdz> elmo++
<mdz> maintainership and membership have very different criteria and need to be explicitly separate decisions
<mako> mdz: they always have been
<mdz> mako: yes, but then we've taken CC approval for members and used it as CC approval for maintainers
<elmo> mdz: I think if  the candidate's last 10 uploads got REJECTed, heck yes
<silb1> I don't think this needs to be as difficult as it is getting.  It seems people agree on where the function sits, and we have appropriate committess to to solve that (TB and CC). If issue is meeting overload, then let's work on process (i.e, does it have to happen in real time in a mtg?)
<mako> mdz: the only issue is how many stamps we need on the maintainers forms before they get an account
<mdz> silb1: I think there's definitely value in having the committee members discuss with each other
<Kamion> other thing from a practical point of view is that occasionally we like to approve somebody known all the way up to maintainership in a single meeting
<Kamion> so if there were a separate NM group then they'd have to attend CC meetings too
<mako> Kamion: except that unless we have the tb there.. that can be tricky
<mdz> it's usually not a problem to have majorities of both committees in both meetings
<mdz> this one seems to be an exception
<Kamion> especially with sabdfl on both ;)
<mako> Kamion: i'd prefer cc+tb approval rather than a new committee
<mdz> mako: agreed
<Kamion> I think I agree
<mako> so that sorta kinda seems like rough conensus
<mako> elmo: you win :)
<elmo> FLAWLESS VICTORY!!!
<opi> re, *sigh*
<elmo> (sorry - can't help that; it's an instinctive reaction to 'you win')
<mako> there ya go: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewMembersMaintainersDraft
<mdz> mako: I think we should make the role of maintainer as mentor an explicit responsibility
<mdz> otherwise, no one will find time for it
<ogra> MOTU = mentor
<elmo> hmm, sorry, really not  trying to be awkard, but this doc seems to miss out the MOTU process?
<mako> ok.. i updated both pages with the added CC approval
<mako> mdz: as in, all maintainers should be mentors?
<mdz> mako: as in, part of being a maintainer is to mentor people who want to learn
<elmo> mako: the memembers URL has a typo "ubuntlinux.org"
<mako> mdz: yes, ok
<elmo> [I know it's a wiki, but locking etc.] 
<mdz> zwiki uses the OHSHIT locking technology
<ogra> mako: i think all MOTUs should be mentors....to keep the core team on its actual work
<mako> elmo: it implies MOTU
<ogra> ore team should be last resort here
<ogra> core even
<mako> "Many Ubuntu maintainers will, especially initially, be limited in their ability to upload packages to a component. Many developers will be universe maintainers which will allow them to upload into universe but not into the main supported distribution. The extent of upload capacity will be decided by the Technical Board.
<elmo> mako: don't we need to document the whole MOTU-approved universe-maintainers can be approved by only two CC members etc.?
<mako> elmo: that's a temporary hoary only thing
<elmo> *blink* it is?  ok, wasn't aware
<mako> elmo: it's documented elsewhere.. these are pages i want to move into the core website
<elmo> k
<mako> elmo: its fine if it goes there.. but i know i will forget to remove it :)
<haggai> mako: if this is going to be the canonical guide it still needs a brief mention, with a note that it only applies pre-hoary
<mako> haggai: alright
<mdz> mako: why should new maintainers add themselves to MaintainerCandidates, and members to the CC agenda?  those should be similar processes
<mdz> mako: we currently have confusion as to whether the committees should be checking a separate list of candidates, or whether candidates should be on the agenda
<mako> elmo, haggai: i'll add a mention
<mako> mdz: i think it should be on the agendas
<mako> because that's what we've worked off in the past :)
<mdz> then MaintainerCandidates is pointless and confusing
<mdz> people add themselves to there and then are ignored and wonder why
<mako> ok, so we should remove that?
<mako> i'm fine w/ that
<ogra> make it MOTU candidates (which implys to be a member before)
<mdz> I'm fine either way, 1) committees have a permanent agenda item to review the list of candidates, or 2) candidates add themselves directly to the agenda (and _show up_)
<haggai> it's probably better to get them to add themselves to the agenda to make sure they know they have to turn up on that date
<mdz> mako: the member process says you should come to the meeting
<mdz> mako: the maintainer process says something about submitting an application
<Kamion> eventually I'd prefer for candidates not to have to show up at the meeting; it's not going to scale well and we'll end up with monster meetings
<Kamion> plus timings are never going to be convenient for all candidates
<mako> in the past, we've not approved people who we didn't know about and who were not there
<mako> Kamion: giving a heads up, if they won't be there, is easy enough and enough i think
<mako> and showing up is a nice gesture
<mdz> a nice gesture?
<mdz> it seems essential to me
<Kamion> mdz: not everyone is going to be able to make 16:00 UTC
<haggai> 4pm GMT must be in the middle of the night somewhere in the world
<mdz> Kamion: we should be rotating the time, but that's a separate matter
<Kamion> if people have to turn up, then we have to start cycling meeting times and therefore people might not be able to make it for up to six weeks
<elmo> we should disable timezones, period
<Kamion> which seems unacceptably long
<jbailey> Or in the middle of the day when someone doesn't have access to outside 'net access through the corporate firewall.
<Kamion> and therefore I think it should be decoupled from meetings
<mdz> we need to be rotating the times anyway
<haggai> elmo: can we drop all translations too then
<mdz> because people need to be able to come and discuss things
<mdz> non-member/maintainer agenda items
<Kamion> mdz: yes, but as said I don't think it'll help. we should allow people to come and discuss things outside meeting times
<elmo> haggai: YES!  I keep telling the rosetta folks this, but all they do is glare at me
<mdz> jdub needs to be able to come once in a while
<ogra> haggai: esperanto linux ?
<elmo> [good thing they're tree-hugging hippies and not violent-types, I guess] 
<mako> mdz: ok.. i changed http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewMaintainerProcessDraft
<mako> mdz: no mention of application explicitly and it talks about meeting agendas only
<mako> i think that addresses your concerns
<mdz> ok
<mdz> so it is implicitly the TB and CC members' responsibility to go out and find information about the candidate?
<mako> let me drop the come to teh meeting thing
<mdz> if so, I think we need to address that scalability problem
<haggai> it would probably help to have a checklist that the candidates can go through, including a list of stuff to put on their wiki page perhaps?
<mako> haggai: there is a rough list of suggested stuff.. i think a few example pages would be great
<ogra> haggai: i think things like this are already on the MaintainerCandidates page
<mako> i dropped the attending meetings thing
<mako> are there other critical issues?
<ogra> so people just have to look at already approved MOTUs wiki pages
<mako> short of the missing reference to MOTU process which we agreed upon last meeting and i put in the summary for the meeting
<mako> the hoary-specific process
<mako> i can include a reference to that
<mdz> mako: my main concern is that both TB and CC end up with useful information about the candidate as part of the documented process
<haggai> ogra: the list on MaintainerCandidates is maybe not specific enough to help TB and CC members collect information they need quickly
<haggai> maybe something like 'links to your last 10 uploads' or something
<mako> mdz: absolutely
<haggai> (to motu)
<mdz> mako: maybe an explicit list of things that they should link from / documented on their wiki page application?
<ogra> haggai: good idea
<haggai> mdz: yes, that's what I'm thinking too
<mako> mdz: do you think examples/templates would help
<mako> i don't want to make requirements we are going to ignore
<mako> because we get super competant/trusted people we all know
<mdz> examples, yes, rather than required items
<mako> mdz: ok, agreed completely then
<mdz> how about an explicit statement in the process like "provide enough information so that the CC and TB members, who may not know anything else about you, have something to go on"
<mdz> examples of helpful information: foo, bar, baz
<mako> mdz: alright
<mdz> should the 'testimonials' be a formal thing?
<mako> mdz: we've got something like this for membership. are you talking explictly about maintainers or both?
<mdz> mako: both
<mdz> probably members should keep this stuff around, and add to it when they apply for maintainership
<mako> mdz: yes, alright
<opi> may I ask, what should be exposed in a testemonial? Is there a possibility that someone highly skilled without social skill will be rejected, and someone who has charm and medium skill will be in?
<opi> I know being a member is more social, and being a MOTU more tachnical thing
<mdz> elmo: can we make it easy for the committee members to pull a bunch of each candidate's uploads to review?
<ogra> opi: MOTU requires member.....
<elmo> mdz: umm - if they're still in the archive, yah
<mdz> opi: for a member, testimonials should reflect participation and contribution to the community
<opi> ogra, oh, ok
<elmo> and signed by their key
<Kamion> opi: we don't want to approve people who will disrupt the community
<mdz> elmo: but not superseded ones?
<mako> mdz:    Your wiki page should include enough information about you that the
<mdz> lots of people will maintain one package or something
<mako>    CommunityCouncil and TechnicalBoard members, who may not know
<mako>    anything else about you, have enough information to approve you.
<mdz> mako: sounds good, thanks
<Kamion> opi: we also don't want to approve people who won't pull their weight - but we do expect a range of skill levels
* mako sighs
<Kamion> the less-skilled people will be doing fewer important things, which is fair enough
<mdz> opi: for a maintainer, testimonials would be more focused on technical ability
<mako> ok, it's added
<elmo> mdz: not as easily no - the katie DB doesn't remember stuff once it's no longer in the archive; I have the .changes, but nothing pre-existent to trawl through and find .changes +files-in-morgue for a given key
<mdz> elmo: right, so punt to the arch team then? ;-P
<ogra> hmm hoary-changes has an archive....
<mdz> hoary-changes has no code
<mako> so short of added reference to the MOTU process and examples templats, are people happy with the draft process
<mako> (it can/will change of course)
<Kamion> ogra: those are the .changes files, but you still have to map them to stuff in the morgue that you can download
<mdz> though that would be a slick feature, to just attach the diff if it's < 10k or something
<elmo> mdz: haha
<mdz> elmo: yeah, right after you finish sending notifications for syncs to -changes
<haggai> now that would be cool
<mako> ?
<elmo> mdz:I was haha-ing at your ohsobitter arch team remark :P
<Kamion> opi: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/NewMaintainerProcessDraft mentions both factors
<mako> i don't want to be the party pooper or anything thing but we have a number of other things on teh agenda :)
<elmo> and besides I wrote a chunk of the notification stuff when I was getting my carswindscreen replaced
<opi> Kamion, ok, I'm ready to not apply :-)
<Kamion> I'm happy enough with the drafts
<opi> since JDub's not here, I guess my Kubuntu-ml agenda will be off :|
<Kamion> mailing list stuff can be sorted out and given to jdub to implement later
<mako> i'd like to get some sort of consensus on the maintainer stuff now
<mdz> I think the drafts are pretty reasonable
<mdz> I'd like to try to address some of the practical problems
<mdz> once there's consensus on the content
<mako> right, is there consensus
<mako> ?
<mako> elmo, Kamion: ?
<elmo> on which sorry? the discussions drifted?
<mdz> elmo: mako's process documentation
<mako> then we can let sabdfl at it and have it completely redone :)
<ogra> hehe
<mako> elmo: yeah.. 
<mako> i'm really just trying to document what we have agreed to in the past but not had written down
<mdz> mako: oh, another thing
<elmo> mako: yeah, that's ok
<mdz> mako: we have said in the past that members shouldn't be required to be able to manage a GPG key
<mdz> oh, the paper thing is there, nm
<mako> mdz: yes
* mako raises a fist victoriously
<elmo> I know we're behind, so feel free to ignore me - are we going to beef up the testimonial's section?
<mako> elmo: i can do that, yes
<elmo> IME with Debian, useful recommendations can be super-helpful to speed things up
<mako> elmo: no, i *completely* agree
<mdz> mako: it's a bit awkward having the guidelines for membership/maintainership on a different page from the steps to take to become one
<mako> mdz: we can merge it into a monster page :)
<mdz> those guidelines should apply to the content of testimonials
<mdz> so I think we've already written about what testimonials should be
<mako> Kamion: what do you think?
<Kamion> mako: count me for consensus
<mako> lets move on!
<mako> ok, we tabled the ml thing for jdub
<mako> Fun Issue Of The Week
<mako> reply-to issues on ubuntu-users
<Kamion> aargh American vs. British English meaning of "tabled"
<mako> hah
<mdz> how do you spell it, tabloed?
<Kamion> no, they're exact opposite meanings
<mdz> oh, I read 'meaning' as 'spelling'
<Kamion> anyway, that aside
<mako> did people have a chance to look over the reply-to stuff?
<elmo> yes :(
<mako> me too
<Kamion> damn, I forgot to read the thread, give me a sec
<mako> people are pissed
<mdz> my opinion on the reply-to thing, fwiw, is that there seems to be a clear consensus among the user population that they want reply-to set.  they don't, as a rule, use mail clients which are smart about the difference between a list-reply and a poster-reply, and they shouldn't really need to care
<ogra> unfortunately
<Kamion> my main question is whether people will be equally pissed off with the other default
<mdz> I don't think they will, honestly
<Kamion> people who are happy with the current situation tend not to say anything, as a general rule
<ogra> what about cross posting then ? (in regard to the kubuntu-ml)
<opi> happy people are quiet, mad people are loud
<elmo> my opinion is that: if a majority of users want reply-to on ubuntu-users we should do it.  but I think the people demanding it, should be the ones putting the work in to do an actuall poll and prove  they're not just a vocal minority
<mdz> the arguments against reply-to are inscrutable to most users
<mako> mdz: i tend to agree
<opi> I'm with Elmo
<mdz> technical pedantry is fine for the developer community, but it shouldn't be forced on users
<opi> they should prove admin wrong
<opi> by majority
<ogra> yup
<opi> but it only goes for -users
<mdz> I think that's process overkill
<ogra> 2/3
<elmo> mdz: which?  a poll?
<mdz> this is such a trivial thing, we can try it for a week and see if it's better or worse
<mdz> yeah
<mako> now i suspect sabdfl was going to suggest that we just make sure we add teh functionality to reply-to-list to any client we ship taht doesn't already have it
<silb1> mdz: I agree. Plus you'll still only get the unhappy people voting (as noted above).
<mdz> it's not like we're making some decision which we'll have to live with for years
<mdz> it's trivial to change
<opi> mako, only Thunderbird lack here
<mako> opi: right, that was my impression
<Kamion> (catching up) with respect I really don't think it's technical pedantry
<Kamion> anyhow, what about the cross-posting thing ogra brought up?
<Kamion> mails delivered through ubuntu-users get Reply-To: and others don't, I guess
<opi> Kamion, -users tend not to crosspost
<mdz> in regard to kubuntu, or reply-to?
<ogra> mdz: both
<opi> Kamion, that's why I suggest to leave things as it is for -devel releated lists
<mako> i say we try it for two weeks
<Kamion> opi: absolutely
<haggai> I think the mail client reply-to-list would be much more useful if reply automatically replied to the list, and reply-to-list became reply-to-poster
<mako> and put this on the agenda for two weeks from now
<mdz> I think it's fine for reply-to to point to -users only
<Kamion> has anyone done a quick survey of how many people on ubuntu-users are currently using Reply-To: for its original intended purpose?
<elmo> mdz: no, but I think the people who _don't_ want a Reply-To should be given the chance to say so without being compared to slavers
<mdz> that'll discourage cross-posting
<mdz> elmo: I think we won't hear from them until we actually do it anyway
<Kamion> i.e. From: set to one e-mail address and Reply-To: set to another because you can't change your From: for whatever reason
<mdz> even if we took a very careful survey, people would bitch and moan about not knowing what was going on
<opi> mdz, annouce it on -users
<mako> Kamion: very view
<mako> Kamion: very few
<mdz> whereas if it's changed for a week, and you don't notice or don't complain, then you can be considered to have been counted, imo
<elmo> mdz: silence is assent?
<mako> so mdz says change it for a week, i say two (just to conincide with the meeting)
<opi> elmo, those who are not here, rise your hand :-)
<mdz> elmo: yes.  if you aren't participating in the list enough to notice, then your opinion doesn't count for much
<mdz> the people who are actually using the list on a daily basis should have more weight
<mdz> too many people are just regurgitating opinions they read on the web
<elmo> mdz: I'll remember that, next time you bitch at me for assuming consent from you
<mdz> elmo: we're talking about a trivial thing here
<ogra> that we could decide without the listmaster ?
<elmo> ogra: listmaster delegated it to CC
<ogra> ah, good
<mdz> elmo: if you email me asking me "is it ok to rm -rf the archive?" and I don't answer, don't assume consent
<elmo> btw, quick visual scan does show people using different Reply-To's and From's
<elmo> not many, but there are some
<mdz> elmo: but if you email me about a typo on some wiki page, and I don't answer, assume I don't care
* mako sighs
<elmo> mdz: dude, I don't really care about your consent or not, I just think it's an entirely bogus argument.  some of the pro-reply-to people were insanely OTT and flamey, so much so that anyone sane is either outright ignoring the thread or at least certainly scared away from replying
<elmo> in those conditions, I don't think it's fair to take a silence is assent stance, but *shrug* whatever
<mdz> a quick visual scan shows only one person actually using different from and reply-to in my current -users mailbox
<Kamion> well, I don't see a majority on the list, I see a vocal and flamy minority; still, I'd rather the list weren't full of flames so if changing the default will make the list more palatable I'll approve of it
<mdz> a lot of people using From == Reply-To, oddly enough
<mako> do we have consensus to make a temporary change or should we wait?
<Kamion> but I don't think we should describe the change as "due to user consensus" or anything like that
<opi> I'm for a test-change
<Kamion> because I don't see such a consensus
<mdz> elmo: I don't care as much about the flamage as I do about the dozens of people who reply to me off-list every week
<elmo> kamion++
<mako> Kamion: make it very explicit that it's test
<mdz> elmo: who I need to reply to and remind them that they need to take some explicit and different action in order to get their mail client to do the thing which is sane by default
<mako> how about this for a proposal:
<ogra> it think the flameages were nearly beyond the CoC ....
<Kamion> ogra: well beyond, dude
<Kamion> we should fix the mail clients anyway, of course
<elmo> mdz: fine, but I think by ostriching about the flamage, all you're doing pandering too it and encouraging it in the future
<Kamion> it's something which will be useful in a number of communities
<ogra> which is why i vote against a change atall
<mako> We make the change temporarily announcing that it's a test and not due to consensus. We collect complaints, etc. and revisit this in two weeks.
<mako> At which point, we should be able to more adequately justify movement on this.
<elmo> "hey, let's call them slavers; it got us our reply-to"
<Kamion> mako: ack
<mdz> elmo: agreed. but likewise, we can't use flamage as a reason to ignore an issue, because usually there's a legitimate issue there, and that penalizes the reasonable people too
<Kamion> how about we also ban the totally unreasonable flamers?
<Kamion> code of conduct etc.
<mako> Kamion: yeah, they are banned....
<opi> that would be good, too, Kamion :-)
<Kamion> mako: already?
<elmo> mdz: I'm not suggesting ignoring it; I'm suggesting shifting the burden onto the vocal minority to prove they're not.. and when it's proven there's a consensus, we're making the change for the right reasons
<ogra> elmo +++
<opi> agree
<mako> elmo: are you not comfortable with a test?
<opi> they are vocal, they should prove us wrong
<opi> it was less that 15 users that flamed
<mdz> consensus is inherently difficult to prove because it's fuzzy
<ogra> how many are subscribed currently ?
<opi> ogra, that was my next question :)
<mako> opi: right, but it's been raied 4-5 times already
<mdz> anyway, there's a vote on the table I think
<elmo> mdz: let me ask you this, if we did a poll and there was a strong majority against it, would you still want to do it?
<mdz> but not "tabled"
<elmo> s/it/adding 'reply-to'/
<mdz> elmo: I cannot think of any poll we could do which would be meaningful
<mako> opi: roughly once a month
<mdz> ideally we could poll members, but we don't have enough yet
<elmo> s/poll/vote/ whatever.  how is a vote not meaningful?
<mdz> who gets a vote, and how do we determine what their vote is?
<mdz> and besides, sabdfl doesn't like votes ;-)
<elmo> I bet you sabdfl's response would be "fix the clients" :P
<opi> and that would be unlimate solution
<opi> ,,no we won't change it, use reply-to-mailinglist feature''
<elmo> mdz: that's why I suggested offloading the work onto the people who want the change
<elmo> *shrug*
<mdz> elmo: give them an impossible task and hope they go away?
<mdz> this isn't Debian :-P
<elmo> mdz: dude, don't be obtuse, holding a vote is pretty far from an impossible task
<elmo> it's going to turn INTO Debian if we encourage people to behave like they did in that thread
<elmo> I seriously see that as much of a threat than any problems that result from a lack of reply-to
<elmo> much more
<mako> i think we can make it clear that this is not what is going on
<mako> but this is a real concern for many people
<mako> it's raised almost monthly and it bothers many people
<mdz> I don't think that kind of negative reinforcement helps to encourage good behaviour
<mdz> a better solution is to ignore the flames and consider the sane viewpoints
<Kamion> I give the various people who say "hm, I'm confused, what just happened to my mail?" a lot more weight than the flamers personally
<Kamion> the question for me is how to put that across
<Kamion> and I think aggressively banning people who violate CoC on the lists is a good way to do so
<opi> is there a option to let users set rules on -users?
<mdz> we can't punish an idea because it's the subject of some moron's flaming
<mako> things that people feel strongly tend to turn into flamewars
<opi> not set, per se
<mako> and this has been brought up half a dozen times outside of a flamewar
<elmo> mdz: if you discount the flamers, how many people were asking for Reply-To?
<mdz> mako: I agree, re: make it clear
<Kamion> we have a new community here, there's no reason why CoC can't be strongly applied
<ogra> but do we need to encourage bad behavior ? 
<mdz> elmo: as I said, my POV is based on people that I have interacted with personally, and not on the flames
<mako> Kamion: we do need to be better about doing this
<ogra> i.e. "i flamed and they changed it....i'm a hero !!"
<mdz> mako: in the announcement, point out that the people who were flaming about it have been banned, and a decision made to do foo, based on bar and baz?
<mako> elmo: we get to spin this and we can make the role of the flamers (i.e., a counterproductive one) very clear
<mako> mdz: right..
<Kamion> "despite the comparisons to slavery, ..."
<mako> and we're only suggestion its a test
<mako> Kamion: heh
<opi> I guess we could try to ,,fix'' mailman. A user could set a reply-to/no-reply-to per account
<elmo> mako: *shrug* ok, fine
<mako> if you're prefer, we can run this by sabdfl before implement it
<Treenaks> opi: that'd give you a whole lot of NEW bugs when they switch mail clients
<Kamion> sabdfl's away all this week isn't it?
<mako> woot
<Treenaks> opi: "It doesn't work as advertised"
<Kamion> er, isn't he?
<mdz> the result of that tends to be that all the discussion we have had is either discarded, or needs to be retraced
<mako> is it? :)
<elmo> mako: we've got 3/4 CC, if we agree, doesn't really matter, does it?
<opi> Treenaks, I'm just think out loud :)
<mako> elmo: no, we can go ahead
<mako> alright then.. lets do this
<mako> i'll talk to jdub
<mdz> (that == seeking an opinion from someone who couldn't be present for the discussion)
<elmo> hang on, is kamion okay with it?
<mako> elmo: it was his idea
<elmo> oh, ok
<elmo> sorry, thought he was arguing against it :)
<Kamion> half of it was my idea
<mako> ah, ok
<mako> Kamion: so are you ok with it?
<Kamion> the "test for two weeks" was mako's
* lamont tries to remember if we're talking about breaking another mailing list, or fixing a broken one...
<mako> lamont: breaking one :)
<ogra> lamont: first one
<Kamion> mako: yes, it's fine with me provided that we really *do* revisit it rather than waving it through in two weeks' time
<lamont> mako: I promise to try to remember to not send private comments to the mailing list, then,
<Kamion> will there be a clear contact point for complaints about the new setup?
<mdz> Kamion: easy enough, add it to the agenda for the next meeting
<elmo> (and let's try and bullt sabdfl into being here next meeting)
<mako> we'll add it right away
<mako> i'll add it when i reset the agenda after this meeting
<mako> alright!
<mako> the rest is easier
<mako> smurfix: around?
<Kamion> can we go back to the kubuntu item?
<Kamion> it got skipped somehow
<mako> Kamion: yes
<mdz> does anyone know if we include a pointer to the CoC in the welcome email for the mailing lists?
<Kamion> opi: did jdub ask you to come to the CC with that list proposal?
<mako> mdz: IIRC, no but that can be fixed
<opi> Kamion, nope, sorry
<mdz> mako: if we don't, it's a bit underhanded to ban people based on it
<opi> Kamion, it did it myself :/
<opi> Kamion, I thought he'll be there, and I could ask him for that
<Kamion> opi: in general the listmaster's responsible for new lists; can you take this to him, unless there's something controversial about it? if he asks you to come back to us then I apologise for giving you the run-around
<haggai> er, if this is about kubuntu[-deve] @lists I already asked jdub to create the lists and he said he would
<elmo> mdz: underhanded is what we slavers do best</bitter> ;-P
<Kamion> listmaster == jdub
<opi> Kamion, sure I do
<ogra> i think he wrote something about it anywhere
<Kamion> opi: ah, see what haggai said then, so we can scratch that item and move on
<ogra> that its needed and should be in place soon
* mako nods
<mdz> mako: if you write a paragraph, I can make the mailman change, and we can send a copy to -users for existing subscribers
<Kamion> mdz: I think people know fine well for themselves what's acceptable and what isn't; I don't have a lot of sympathy for the "you didn't tell me I wasn't allowed to call people slavers!" line of argument
<mako> mdz: that sounds fine
<Kamion> also, bans can be temporary, == cooling-off period
* ogra thinks of a certain IRC person.....
<mako> opi: have you already been approved for a pl team by smurf
<mako> ?
<mdz> Kamion: is that what's happening?  has someone mailed the banned people and explained that it's temporary, or something like that?
<mako> opi: because technically, you don't need CC approval
<opi> mako, not officialy, me thinks
<mdz> smurfix: ?
<opi> mako, I'm doing my job, and if I should give it to someone else, I'll :)
<mako> i highly doubt this will be a problem :)
<mako> opi: you've been very active/visible doing this so far
<mako> so i'm happy saying welcome and encouraging you to follow up with smurfix when he comes back
<opi> mako, flamer're loud, too. :)
<mako> sames goes with andrea
<opi> thank you :)
<mako> opi: perhaps we can put together a good example webpage and get you confirmed a member at teh next meeting
<mdz> it's not clear from the agenda whether crimsun is proposing himself, or ogra is proposing him
<ogra> i proposed him on behalf...(i think) :)
<opi> mako, sure, but I'm still at work, and I'll have to take few things before that
<Kamion> mdz: I don't know, all I know about any banning is an aside from mako which he didn't expand upon
<crimsun> I'm proposing, but ogra filled out the name.
<mdz> ogra: I hope he gave his consent ;-)
<opi> mako, can we do it tom. from morning or today, at night?
<ogra> mdz: done :-P
<mako> Kamion: i am not even sure if/who we can ban someone but i suspect it's possible.. i haven't looked into it too much yet
<mako> well, i'm happy approving crimsun as a member right now
<Kamion> ack crimsun as member
<mako> elmo: ?
<elmo> ack
<mako> crimsun: are you looking for universe maintainership or full maintainership
<elmo> mako: eh
<mako> crimsun: i wasn't clear
<opi> mako, will it be requied for Leaders to be a members? Or it's gets automagiclly?
<mako> opi: no, not required
<elmo> doesn't agenda say just member?  (I'm not necessarily objecting, just confused)
<mdz> yes, it does
<crimsun> mako: eventually full, but as I understand it MOTU can be part of the process.
<mako> sorry.. i was reading the heading
<mdz> jbailey, though, is applying for full maintainership, though it doesn't say
<mako> crimsun: yes
<crimsun> mako: my current aim is to assist as part of MOTU.
<mako> crimsun: cool. you can move ahead with that work and we'll revisit that soon then :)
<haggai> I've got a patch from crimsun in my mailbox I still need to review for MOTU
<mako> jbailey: then
<jbailey> mdz: I had understoof membership to be a pre-requisite.  I'm thankful that it's being made clearer. =)
<mako> haggai: sounds good
<mako> well, jbailey is fine by me as a member
<mdz> jbailey: that's the subject of the documentation we were working out earlier in this meeting
<mako> and a maintainer for that matter
<jbailey> mdz: Ayup.  I offered some other comments to Mako before the meeting, too.
<mdz> at any rate, it should be entirely possible to get both approvals in one CC meeting
<mdz> (practically speaking)
<elmo> mdz: no keybuk tho?
<mdz> no :-/
<mdz> elmo: I meant both CC/member and CC/maintainer
<elmo> oh, I see
<mako> right, the TB stuff will have to wait
<mako> Kamion, elmo: jbaily member/maintainer?
<elmo> I'm happy to ack jbailey as CC/member and CC/maintainer.. purely on basis of his Debian work (can we do that?)
<mako> elmo: yes
<mdz> is keybuk not likely to be awake?
<mako> elmo: we have in the past
<elmo> mdz: at nearly 6 in the evening?  I'd hope he is - shall I ring him?
<haggai> keybuk's on jabber
<silb1> keybuk was taking today off to build furniture. Or something like that.
<Kamion> yes, what elmo said, ack jbailey as member/maintainer
<Kamion> noting for the avoidance of doubt that jbailey is a Canonical employee, but having dealt with him for some time in Debian I'd be happy to approve him notwithstanding that
<mako> woot!
<mdz> I don't see him on jabber
<mako> jbailey: process-wise you still need to get checked off by the TB
<ogra> so may i change my suggestion for crimsun to member/maintainer too ?
<mdz> ogra: I think crimsun needs to be the one to do that
<crimsun> mdz: acked.
* haggai sends keybuk a msg
<mako> ogra: i'd prefer we had haggai and etc come back after we've had some of theo patches accepted a bit of work done
<jbailey> mako: Yup, thanks.
<ogra> mdz: just wanted to correct my agenda item ;)
<elmo> I'll call him - worse case he'll tell me to go away
<elmo> answerphone
<mako> alright!
<mdz> do you guys think that CC/TB approvals should be required to happen during public meetings?
<mako> no, i don't
<mdz> or can we meet in smoke-filled rooms and get approvals to accelerate the process?
<mako> mdz: i think we require full consensus if it's outside of a meeting
<opi> I can leave :-)
<elmo> we could have them happen in public, just not scheduled
<haggai> as long as the meetings are publicly archived
<mdz> opi: the issue is getting everyone together at the same time, not publicity
<mdz> e.g., keybuk isn't around right now, but he likely will be at some point before the next TB meeting
<mdz> but it won't be as part of a public, archived meeting
<Kamion> seems a bit underhand not to, but we can call extraordinary meetings for the purpose of approving people if it's more convenient to do so
<Kamion> e.g. announce meeting a day in advance at $TIME
<mdz> certainly approvals should go on public record
<mdz> if they can happen outside of meetings
<mako> people can just join this channel.. it's archived
<mdz> I don't think it's particularly important to schedule them; it shouldn't make a difference if others are present
<elmo> or we could use a non-realtime medium like mailing lists?
<elmo> as an alternative for approvals
<haggai> mdz: I think it does make a difference because it's a chance for non-TB/CC people to speak up if they know a reason not to approve
<mdz> we should probably start requiring that approvals be authenticated somehow anyway
<mdz> haggai: hmm, good point
<elmo> "Dear Scott, please approve Jeff.  kthxbye"
<Kamion> everything here is logged, anyway ...
<Kamion> so they should always be in #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz> things here are logged, but not particularly well authenticated
<mdz> anyway, it was just a thought
<haggai> IRC is great for going back and forth in a discussion without ending up with a long drawn out thread including possible flames etc
<mdz> I'll try to call a TB mini-meeting to follow up with any TB decisions from this meeting
<Kamion> "if any of you know just cause or impediment why this person should not be an Ubuntu maintainer, speak now or forever hold your peace"
<ogra> heh
* mako likes sabdfl's "security, PSHAW, i've see too many certificates in my life already" attitude
<haggai> or forever be flamed for not speaking up ;)
<ogra> Kamion: practicing ?
<mdz> are we finished with the agenda?
<mako> yes
<mako> we are
<mako> thanks everbody
<opi> let's have a drink
<mdz> oh, crimsun is to be consisdered for MOTU status
<Kamion> ogra: it might be slightly on my mind
<opi> (or work:)
<ogra> mdz: yeah.....
<mako> mdz: you and haggai can do that alone
<mdz> mako: me??
<ogra> heh
* mvo_ has to leave now to go to hockey training
<Kamion> following up crimsun's references, I have no issues
<mdz> I'm neither MOTU nor CC, and those are the two bodies that have authority on the issue
<mako> mdz: yeah, remember the fastrack MOTU procedure you suggested at the meeting two weeks ago?
<mako> i thought it was tb members too
<mako> but i can check my notes
<mako> in any case, it's not difficult
<Kamion> crimsun: although could you add a source package for your bzflag package to http://sh.nu/~crimsun/?
<mdz> crimsun: is your key in the strongly connected set?
<crimsun> Kamion: certainly.
<crimsun> mdz: no
<Kamion> hm, and backports should ideally have decreased version numbers, not increased
<mdz> mako: hmm, there is nothing in NewMaintainerProcessDraft about keys
<mdz> mako: and I think there should be
<Kamion> (looking at http://sh.nu/~crimsun/qsynaptics/qsynaptics_0.22.0-1ubuntu1.diff.gz)
<crimsun> Kamion: 0.22.0-0ubuntu1?
<mdz> mako: ah, it's on NewMembersMaintainersDraft
<mako> mdz: yeah, it should be
<mako> mdz: that's an oversight
<mdz> mako: you said they could be merged anyway, I think that's probably the right thing
<Kamion> crimsun: yeah, that would be better, it makes upgrades work more sanely
<Kamion> crimsun: i.e. maintain a warty < hoary invariant
<mako> i have a short list of changes: (A) reference to motu fastrack process (b) example templates (c) testimonial sections beefed up (d) info on keys in the newmaint section (e) merge it all
<mako> thanks everyone!
<crimsun> Kamion: acked, will correct along with the remaining packages there.
<ogra> mako: did you already put up the signable CoC.txt ?
<Kamion> crimsun: thanks
<Kamion> are existing MOTUs here happy with crimsun's work?
<ogra> absolutely :)
<ogra> riddell ?
<mako> ogra: not linked up yet
<ogra> mako: got it still here: http://www.grawert.net/CoC.txt
<crimsun> mako: is it adequate if I simply copy and paste from http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct/ , or shall I use ogra's url?
<mako> crimsun: either is adequate
<crimsun> mako: thanks.
<mako> ohh
<mako> NEXT MEETING IS FEBRUARY 1st!
<opi> no, the date of doom
<opi> if my system won't start at 1st, I can stay longer, because I'll be fired :)
<mako> wait
<mako> that's wrong
<mako> that's the TB meeting
<mdz> mako: did anyone call for additional items not on the agenda?
<mako> i think i asked
<mako> maybe i just thought about asking
<mako> mdz: do you have something?
<haggai> I have something
<mdz> mako: it should be a standard part of the agenda to ask for other business, I think
<mako> mdz: yes
<mako> haggai: go ahead
<mdz> I try to do it at TB, and have added a note to the wiki as a reminder
<mako> mdz: i'll add a note
<haggai> about mMOTU, proposing ogra to help
<haggai> he's been pretty active already and helpful with the community side
<mako> that's fine with me
<mdz> there was consensus at a previous CC meeting that MOTU should be a proper Ubuntu team, with leadership roles
<haggai> since chrish can't help because he doesn't have the time, I need some more help
<mako> ogra: are you alright with that?
<mdz> I believe haggai accepted, but chrish (the other nominee) had to decline due to time constraints
<mako> Kamion, elmo: if you're still around...
<haggai> ogra doesn't have the same packaging / debian connections but I can handle that side
<haggai> mdz: yes correct
<ogra> posting form a private chat with haggai: <ogra> i have no prob with being he-mans right hand ;)
<mako> haggai, ogra: right.. i'm happy to let you guys work out the division of labor
<Kamion> yes, ogra is fine with me if he's happy asking for help with packaging bits when needed
<ogra> i certainly will :)
<haggai> and I'd appreciate someone to bounce opinions off straight away too
<mako> haggai: opinions of what sort?
<haggai> mako: oh just thoughts, nothing specific
<elmo> what kamion said
<mdz> ogra has done good work already in helping people get into the process of joining MOTU, etc., and I think he would do well in an official capacity of that nature
<haggai> I mean wrt to ogra helping, maybe that wasn't clear
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mako] : Tuesday 08 February 2005 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda | Tuesday 01 February 2005 1600UTC: Technical Board --
<Kamion> mdz: agreed
<he-mans_little_h> helper....grr
* mdz tries not to make a dirty joke
<opi> who's the tiger? :)
<haggai> back to normal then ;)
<opi> I'd like to take a role of Skeleton
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mako] : Tuesday 08 February 2005 16:00 UTC: Community Council meeting -- https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/CommunityCouncilAgenda || Tuesday 01 February 2005 1600UTC: Technical Board -- http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/TechnicalBoardAgenda. || This is NOT #ubuntu, nor #ubuntu-devel
<mako> any other items/issues?
<mdz> meeting times?
<opi> 16:00 I guess
<mdz> I'm inclined to propose a time change for TB next week
<mako> i had assumed that the 16UTC worked
<mako> mdz: go ahead
<mako> mdz: the old tb time was last week
<mako> mdz: so that's up to you
<mdz> I wouldn't *cough* mind if CC were different too
<mdz> I think jdub would like to be able to attend as well
<mako> it would be fun if hte CC could set the TB's time and vice versus
<mdz> I was thinking that it might make more sense to have TB and CC on Tue and Wed or something like that
<haggai> bah he-man is already taken by someone :)
<mdz> rather than alternate Tuesdays
<mdz> anyway, we can discuss it offline
<mako> mdz: what like, weekley meetings?
<sivang> hi all
<mako> no more items?
<mdz> mako: still alternate weeks, but in the same week instead of different ones
* sivang regrets missing the meeting, had to attend something
<mako> the meeting that would not die is.....
<mako> dead
<mdz> this is nothing compared to an Ubuntu development meeting
<mako> mdz: i know :)
<mako> mdz: the hoary feature goals meeting was insantiy
<mako> or was it the kickoff meeting
<mako> i think the kickoff meeting
<mako> yikes
<sivang> mako: anything interesting I missed ? ;-/
<mako> sivang: it will be in the summary, don't worry
<ogra> sivang: there are logs....
* mako goes to get lunch/tea
<sivang> ogra: sure, how long was it this time?
<ogra> started about 2hrs ago....
<sivang> wow
<sivang> and adjurned now right?
<sivang> ogra: you have a log ? ;-)
<ogra> sivang: fabio
<sivang> ogra : eh right
<sivang> ogra: ah reading some more...looks like the nm process is starting to get rougher.
<sivang> (there are logs in chrish' server)
<ogra> ah, ok
<smurfix> Family emergencies are a pain :-(
<ogra> you had one ?
<smurfix> Yeah, my mother managed to break her hand. On holiday. In India. :-(
<Mithrandir> smurfix: your family has this thing about breaking hands.
<ogra> weird
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-30
<Kamion> yeah, what mako said - I don't imagine it'll be a problem once we have a good account of what you've done, it's just a matter of laying that out for us
<mako> anandaputra: cool.. email with me beforehand if you're unclear
<mako> lmanul: alright
<mako> lmanul: you're up
<lmanul> :)
<mako> lmanul: no need to repost
<mako> lmanul: but give us MORE
<anandaputra> ok.. thanks mako..
<lmanul> I first started using Linux back in 1999 with a "Yellow dog" distro onto my iMac. Since then, I've been using Debian quite a lot, until I found out about Ubuntu in spring 2005, simply fell in love with it, and decided to let it replace Debian on my 3 boxes (incl a server). Ubuntu had reached the point where I could really advise my non-computer-aware friends to switch to Linux.
<lmanul> I then began to really contribute when I participated in Google's "Summer of Code 2005", and I had so much fun hacking Ubuntu and GNOME with the help of seb128 that I never stopped :) So here I am, wanting to really be part of the community, and keep on hacking (especially on UI issues) to make Ubuntu even easier to use and even nicer to look at !
<lmanul> Wiki page ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ManuCornet ) and launchpad ( https://launchpad.net/people/manu-cornet ) but they mostly link to http://www.manucornet.net/ubuntu/ where I described what I've been doing for Ubuntu.
<lmanul> A few recommandations :
<lmanul> http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/lmanul_ubuntu
<lmanul> And I think vuntz /queried Kamion a little while ago to give some recommandation about me as well
<mako> cool
<mako> i know you
<ogra> do we really need recommendations ? 
<lmanul> And huh, dholbach doesn't seem to be here :)
<ogra> lmanul, brought us the new logout dialog 
<seb128> I think you have enough without him :p
<earobinson> summer of code wow!
<lmanul> ;-)
<ogra> that speaks for itself :)
<Kyral> umm, nuff said?
<Kamion> 18:28 <vuntz> Manu has been helping enthusiastically in the past few months: he's implemented features, giving feedback, etc., and (this is most important) he has contributed to the "love" atmosphere of the
<Kamion>               desktop team. And he's French. So I support his application :-)
<Kyral> lol
<ogra> oh, and dont forget the add to panel dialog ...
<licio> :-)
<seb128> "lmanul is a great contibutor for the desktop teams for some months now. He started with a bounty for the Google summer of code, working on the "add to panel" dialog for gnome-panel we ship at the moment and some change for gnome-menus/admin. He's responsive since on the bugs on the code he wrote, helps on bug triage, worked on a separator applet for gnome-applets (which is shipped upstream now), did the patch for the new gnome-session dialo
<seb128> g and the icons for it, and is active on IRC and on the desktop list. I recommend it for ubuntu membership
<seb128> "
<mako> is being french an asset or a liability? <duck>
<seb128> that's what I wrote, better and the URI :p
<mako> it depends on if you're trying to sign a contract i guess ;)
<earobinson> lol
<mako> according to elmo, it's very complicating and somehow involves the marquis de sade
<ogra> mako, you could always pretend to be a french speaking brazilian :)
<seb128> beeing french make easier for you to read #ubuntu-desktop sometime :)
<lmanul> haha
<mako> seb128: i imagine :)
<seb128> :p
<Kamion> I'm impressed by all the desktop contributions and I'm particularly pleased to see people continuing to work on Ubuntu after the Summer of Code
<mako> Kamion: amen :)
<mako> lmanul: thrilled to have your contributions to date
<mako> and looking forward to the future
<mako> lots of good stuff
* mako is happy with membership
<Kamion> me too if it wasn't clear
<elmo> ack too
* ogra waits for lmanul's gdm rewrite in dapper+1
<mako> lmanul: welcome :)
<lmanul> Thanks a lot guys !
<ogra> welcome lmanul 
<lmanul> ogra, I'll do my best :-p
<seb128> lamont: congrats :)
<raphink> welcome lmanul 
<ogra> *g*
<seb128> ups
<seb128> lmanul: congrats :)
<ogra> lool
<lmanul> Thanks everyone
<licio> Congratulations lmanul 
<freeflying_> mako:  May I be the next 
<mako> freeflying_: you are next
<freeflying_> I live in China PRC , my name is Hou ZhengPeng , a member of ubuntu-cn locoteam .I've worked on package for kubuntu ,  do my best for BetterCJKsupport and do some test about CJK also I have translated some docs about ubntu into chinese . My future plan focus on following two : 1 promote the using of ubuntu in chinese ,2 establish kubuuntu-zh website for chinese 3 continue BetterCJKSupport spec 
<freeflying_> My wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Freeflying
<Riddell> freeflying_ has been doing great at telling me what to do to get CKJ support in kubuntu better
<mako> freeflying_: i'd personally like to work with you on some of your input method work :)
<ogra> mako, minghua is applying for membership today too :)
<minghua> I read freeflying_'s (and other ubuntu-cn people's) work on ubuntu.org.cn
<ogra> seems we finally have some people to solve input methds 
<mako> ogra: yes
<minghua> they've done very well documentation work there, helping new users in the forums
<Riddell> he's also packaged various CKJ fonts and skim input for kubuntu, so I'm all for his membership
* ogra thinks it smells like a MOTUInput team :)
<mako> are the ubuntu-tw , ubuntu-cn and ubuntu-hk teams all collaborating on doc stuff?
<mako> the wikipage seems to imply that
<minghua> I also think freeflying_'s English skill is important for communication between Chinese users and the whole community
<freeflying_> mako: y , we are working on that 
<mako> wow, that's great :)
<\sh> on freeflying and minghua are doing a great job in teaching motus and main devs how to use input methods...they helped a lot to find some issues in qt3 and the immodule patch :)
<mako> debian had some pretty famous political problems in this regard
<Kamion> minghua: I guess we'll get to you in a moment, but are you in broad agreement with freeflying_ on the direction we need to take on input methods?
<minghua> I also appreciate his BetterCJKSupport proposal, which attracted quite some people
* mako nods to minghua 
<mako> i think this is one of the major areas that ubuntu needs to focus energy in the next year or two
<minghua> Kamion: that depends on what he want to do with input method packages
<mako> minghua: i'd like to have them connected to language packs
<minghua> I've not talked with freeflying_ much on input method issue, and I don't really know his plan
<mako> and have necessary configuration happen automagically
<minghua> mako: we can get to it when it's my turn :-)
<mako> cool
<mako> freeflying_: how long have you been involved?
<mako> ogra: how long have you seen freeflying_'s contributions?
<mako> because the wikpage shows great work but seems a little thin IMHO
<freeflying_> mako: 5/2005
<Riddell> he's been around for a good while
<mako> the magic month
* mako nods
<ogra> mako, i'm not deep into KDE stuff, but since quite some time 
<minghua> freeflying_: I am interested in mako's question about cn, tw, hk's collaboration as well
<freeflying_> minghua: we may talk about that sonner after 
<Riddell> and is on #kubuntu-devel daily
<mako> *some* amount of collaboration is going to be necessary in that we all work together at a common place
<freeflying_> s/sonner/sooner
<mako> but if we can have more direct collaboration on obviously related problems, that's *awesome*
<ogra> mako++
<minghua> mako: the BetterCJKSupport proposal work is done by all CJK people
<mako> great
<mako> ok..
<mako> lets get back to freeflying_'s application
<mako> since it's been over 2 hours now
<Kyral> yes...please...
<minghua> but on the documentation side what I've seen is completed separated work
<Kyral> Kyral....hungry....
<mako> Riddell, ogra: would you be ok with membership or prefer to wait a meeting or two
* ogra goes with Riddell, he can judge the KDE side better
<Riddell> mako: he's been around long enough and has consistenly been helping with CJK, I'm all in support of his membership
<mako> alright..
* \sh agrees with riddell
<Riddell> and tests dapper frequently for CJK and other issues
<mako> freeflying_: are you involved in an loco team?
<freeflying_> mako:  sure ubuntu-cn
<mako> nice webpage :)
<freeflying_> mako: thx
<Kamion> I'm fine with freeflying_ for membership based on testimonials
<elmo> me too
<mako> freeflying_: i'm happy to have you on board
<mako> alright
<mako> freeflying_: welcome!
<minghua> congratulations freeflying_
<mako> last up to bat
<freeflying_> mako: thx
<minghua> my turn?
<freeflying_> thx all
<\sh> freeflying_: welcome on board :)
<licio> welcome freeflying_ :-D
<ogra> congrats freeflying_ 
<minghua> Okay.  My name is Ming Hua.  wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MingHua  launchpad profile: https://launchpad.net/people/minghua
<freeflying_> \sh licio  ogra :thx
<minghua> I am a Chinese coming from mainland China.  Currently I am a Ph.D. student on materials science, in Rice University, Houston, USA.
<minghua> My main contribution so far has been: 1. testing and reporting bugs; 2. helping MOTUs with transitions and merges; 3. taking care of the SCIM related packages (I am the Debian maintainer of some of them).
<minghua> My future plan would be: 1. maintaining and improving SCIM related packages, as input methods seem to be a popular request from users and Ubuntu seems to be lacking people that work on this; 2. help MOTU science team, especially on collaborating with Debian.
<Kamion> minghua's been around for a long time - I remember your name from a conversation about translations late in the hoary cycle I think
<minghua> I would also like to mention that I am heavily involved in the i18n/l10n work in Debian, which I think Ubuntu will also benefit from.
<Kyral> I was surprised that he wasn't a Member
<Kamion> or was it warty, one of those
<minghua> Kamion: yes, that's probably my first Ubuntu bug :-)
<minghua> mako: back to the input method issue you mentioned:  I would love to see input method support integrated into lang-pack too
<\sh> minghua is quite active in the MOTU area and also one of hell bug squasher
<minghua> but I am not really a programmer, so I definitely need help on that
<ogra> elmo just synced his scim package from debian :)
<minghua> however as I've indicated on my wiki page, input method support is my first priority in both Debian and Ubunut
<freeflying_> minghua has contributed much oto scim 
<mako> minghua: we're gonna do it
<Kamion> as with freeflying_ I'm happy to have more people who actually know about input methods, and particularly getting the Debian scim maintainer on-board is clearly the right thing to do
<mako> minghua: if we can get people from 4 other languages represented.. we can do this
* mako nods to Kamion 
<minghua> and I would definitely pursue automatical IM support in dapper+1 if we don't have enough time for dapper
<mako> minghua: we'll do it
<Kamion> and I approve of the detailed wiki page :)
<Kyral> okay I'm off. I support minghua :P
<Kamion> so minghua++ as far as I'm concerned
<minghua> thanks Kyral :-)
<mako> minghua: i don't think we have time to test it honestly for dapper.. because the changes are pretty invasive
<earobinson> bye Kyral 
<mako> minghua: we should *start* planning for dapper+1
<LaserJock> minghua is helping me (and MOTU Science in general) with his knowledge of Debian and desire for collaboration
<elmo> ack from me too
<mako> minghua: we should meet up sometime this week to strategize
<minghua> mako: yes that's my concern too, especially dapper will be supported for 3 years
<mako> minghua: awesome :)
<minghua> mako: and scim upstream now essetianlly don't support old release branches :-(
<earobinson> can I ask what " automatical IM support" is going to be?
<minghua> mako: that would be wonderful (having some help from others)
<Kamion> I believe I've approved everyone from this meeting in Launchpad; let me know if I've missed anyone
<mako> Kamion: you rock
<mako> awesome
<mako> so i think that's it
<minghua> earobinson: my vision is that you choose CJK (chinese, japanese, korean) as the language in install, input method (hopefully scim :-) packages will be automatically installed, and when you boot into you new gnome/kde desktop, you can use IM immediately
<mako> i approve of minghua, if that wasn't clear
* ogra applauds minghua 
<Kamion> yep, any other business before we close?
<mako> minghua: YES
<\sh> minghua: congrats :)
<mako> minghua: BROTHER
<minghua> that still requries a lot of work, though
<Kamion> please say no, my wife would like to actually see me tonight :)
<minghua> thanks, mako, 
<mako> minghua: this has been my #1 goal for ubuntu since almost day one :)
<mako> ok ok ok
<minghua> thanks d ogra
<mako> i think that means the MEETING IS OVER
<mako> Kamion: quickly run away :)
<mako> thanks everyone who was here at weird times
<minghua> thanks for the CC members too 
<ogra> Kamion, only 30min and its early morning already, hurry up :)
<mako> lets do it like 10 hours earlier next time
<minghua> for such a long meeting
<nealmcb> fascinating - thanks folks!
<mako> next meeting at UTC12
<mako> two weeks from today
<mako> ?
<mako> sounds sane
<Kamion> works for me
<mako> cool
<freeflying_> minghua: would you mind have a talk about scim with me when you have time 
<elmo> me too
<minghua> freeflying_: I have time right now
<minghua> if it's not too early for you ;-)
<seb128> elmo: could you install gnome-menus Build-Depends on the breezy amd64 chroot?
<elmo> (mark will still be on tour tho, and likely unable to attend)
<elmo> seb128: RT it?  I'll do it before I go to bed
<earobinson111> sorry got DCed <earobinson> can I ask what " automatical IM support" is going to be?
<seb128> elmo: right, doing that now, thank you
<mako> Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Jan 12:00 UTC:  Edubuntu | 26 Jan 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status |  27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting | 31 Jan  20:00 UTC:  Technical Board | 7 February 12:00 UTC: Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mako] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 25 Jan 12:00 UTC:  Edubuntu | 26 Jan 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status |  27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting | 31 Jan  20:00 UTC:  Technical Board | 7 February 12:00 UTC: Community Council
<freeflying_> minghua: anyway I'd have my breakfast firstly 
<mako> thanks everyone for showing up!
<elmo> ok, I'm out.  night all, thanks everuone
<mako> g'night
<manicka> ciao all
<mako> i have another irc meeting to be in
<mako> for the GPLv3 
<mako> bah
<azeem> yay meetings
<FLeiXiuS> mako: goodluck, I love v3 so far.
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas: ping
<FLeiXiuS> I'm currently upgrading my Gateway, I'l be back after ipcop decides to play nice!  :-)
<licio> Seveas, ping
<JaneW> hello
<jelkner> good morning!
<juliux> hi all
<JaneW> hi jelkner 
<jelkner> JaneW: hi jane, did you get my email?
<JaneW> jelkner: you are up first today :)
<jelkner> cool!
<JaneW> let's just give it 2 mins
<jelkner> ok
<juliux> hi mhz 
<mhz> hi juliux
<JaneW> Q: Who is the target audience for the Edubuntu Cookbook? Hosted by jelkner - 5-10 mins
<flint_> good morning edubuntu'ers
<JaneW> flint_: wanna do minutes?
<kjcole> Hi all.
<JaneW> hi kjcole 
<JaneW> hi juliux 
<JaneW> hi mhz 
<kjcole> jelkner, outlines at http://docbox.flint.com/~kjcole/outlines.html
<mhz> hi JaneW 
<flint_> JaneW, we need to talk this offline.  is matt around?
<mhz> flint_: hi edubuntero
<JaneW> flint_: I think he is yes
<JaneW> ok is ogra around?
<ogra> yup
<JaneW> highvoltage: ping
<JaneW> hi ogra
* mhz is MauricioHernandez
<JaneW> who else do we need?
<ogra> i dont have to telly you much this week ...
<JaneW> mhz: I do know that :)
<mhz> heheh, it was for minutes purposes
<JaneW> ogra: is that good or bad?
<JaneW> ogra: do we have flight 3 testers?
<ogra> good for ubuntu, bad for edubuntu :)
<JaneW> :((
<JaneW> ok lets not get into that yet
<ogra> i have done mostly ubuntu UVF work last week 
<JaneW> are we ready to start?
<jelkner> tell me when
<flint_> Mauritzo, I like it ... edubuntero indeed!
<JaneW> I have promised that jelkner can go first, since he has limited time...
<JaneW> jelkner: hit it
<jelkner> Ok, the question we need to resolve is: "Who is the target audience for the cookbook?"
<JaneW> I would say the peron who sets up the lab
<highvoltage> JaneW: pong, i am just about to go into another meeting though :/
<jelkner> the answer to that question will determine which way we go forward
<JaneW> so either a teacher or beginner techie
<JaneW> highvoltage: ok, can we have a web update next week?
<highvoltage> JaneW: yep
<jelkner> JaneW: that was my orignial assumption
<JaneW> highvoltage: can you respond to question above?
<JaneW> "Who is the target audience for the cookbook?"
<flint_> Morning Johnathan...
<JaneW> I don;t think it's the kids necessarily, although they may read it too
<JaneW> ogra?
<jelkner> Keep in mind there are direct implications to how we work depending on what we are aiming at.
<ogra> JaneW, ?
<jelkner> and we don't want to aim at "everyone"
<highvoltage> hi flihnt
<JaneW> ogra: looking for an opinion on "Who is the target audience for the cookbook?"
<jelkner> makes the book not that usable by anyone
<ogra> yes, i wonder why  :)
<highvoltage> JaneW: i think the answer to that is, from a technical pov, it should be doable by teachers without any help
<JaneW> the book is about how to set up a lab ,right?
<highvoltage> but organisations who would like to replicate should be able to use it
<ogra> the atrget should be the admin who sets up the lab in first line
<highvoltage> got to run, i'm being called!
<JaneW> highvoltage: so you agree with my 'either a teacher or beginner techie'
<JaneW> bye
<flint_> highvoltage, I promise by next meeting I ill learn how to spell...
<ogra> but the content should make it possible to use the cookbook in a class as well to explain ltsp and edubuntu
<JaneW> jelkner/ kjcole : think that's possible?^
<jelkner> ogra: what do you mean by "use the cookbook in a class"?
<kjcole> JaneW: How to set up and use (as in ok, now I've got a lab... how do I use it to teach... Moodle, etc)... maybe.
<lucasvo> I don't know in which class one is supposed to learn something about edubuntu
<JaneW> jelkner: he is saying it can also be used to teach 'what is linux' 'what is FOSS'
<ogra> jelkner, as teaching material ..
<jelkner> hmm..
<ogra> JaneW, nope, not in this wide range 
<ogra> only what is ltsp, what is edubuntu
<JaneW> jelkner: got a URL for the cookbook so we can see what's in it now?
<ogra> there are enough good docs explaining FOSS out there :)
<lucasvo> I think there should be a general part and a part with a step by step explanation(something like: do this: sudo do this: rm -rf / do this ....)
<jelkner> there can never be enough! ;-)
<lucasvo> so at the beginning of every chapter for e.g. Installation of Network hardware, there should be a theoretical part explaining TCP/IP, netmask and that kind of stuff
<jelkner> Can I take a few minutes to explain what prompted this discussion?
<JaneW> we need the url, so ppl like lucasvo can see it
<Seveas> licio, pong
<JaneW> jelkner: YES please do
<jelkner> OK, we started with the TuxLab Cookbook
<lucasvo> we need a "server" for bzr, so people can checkout and merge
<jelkner> which is very much like the book most of you are describing
<JaneW> ogra: you got a server for us? ;)
<flint_> lucasd, got one.  docboc.flint.com
<JaneW> jelkner: yes, cos that's what we have seen ;)
<flint_> corrction docbox.flint.com
<jelkner> Ou original plan was to keep to that text as much a possible
<jelkner> and to modify for Edubuntu
<ogra> JaneW, if i can store the hwdb on your home PC you can have some space on my server :P
<JaneW> jelkner: right, and has that changed?
<jelkner> If we pursue this path, we will need help from ogra and others who actually built the system, to make sure we get it right
<JaneW> sure we'll need some technical reviewing
<ogra> jelkner, i'm a bit overloaded until after the sprint (feature freeze) after this i'll have some more time to care for docs etc ...
<jelkner> in Kevin's discussion with ogra, he seemed to suggest that we won't need alot of the detail we were asking him for
<flint_> ogra, ollie, do not lie to the nice tech writer, you are a programmer.  Documentation is your sworn enemy :^)
<jelkner> and we didn't want to be a pain and keep bothering him, but while we can right, we don't know the details
<jelkner> also there is the question of others wanting to participate more
<JaneW> jelkner: right and is it very different to the current text?
<jelkner> that got us thinking about a very different kind of cookbook
<mhz> lucasvo: in an edubutu training class
<ogra> i just led a new user through ltsp installation last night, i could advise him with two lines to get it working ... there are not much details you need to know ...
<jelkner> one aimed not at technical folks, but at end users
<JaneW> jsgotangco and mhz have become fairly involved they may be able to help with the tech writing
<ogra> but the end users are technical folks in our case
<jelkner> not true
<ogra> i.e. school admins, teachers that care for the server
<jelkner> at least in our area, most of the "users" aren't technical people at all
<Treenaks> ogra: more technical than 'the general public', but still not sysadmin gods
<ogra> i didnt say sysadmin gods ;)
<JaneW> yes I also think that even 'technical' types my be only familiar with MS stuff
<ogra> that should be enough 
<jelkner> the big question is around installation
<jelkner> the TuxLab book is mostly about setting up a lab
<jelkner> and *much* less about using it
<kjcole> The original cookbook went into great detail about the stages of booting ("... then tftp bla-bla-bla...")   Who was that intended for?
<jelkner> Edubuntu is different in two ways:
<jelkner> 1. It is much easier to setup
<jelkner> 2. The applications is comes with are much more standard
<JaneW> jelkner: know what, I am happy for you to create it in the way that you think it;s required, my reason for this is 3 fold.
<JaneW> 1) Your are doing the work
<JaneW> 2) You are an educator and are closest to the type of traget audience we are looking at
* lucasvo1 hates GNU screen
<JaneW> 3) We have limited time to get it done and out there
<kjcole> jelkner 3. No grants, standard equipment, etc.
<jelkner> 4) This is not the only book, only one of many
<JaneW> we can always amend it again, if we decide it needs to change for Dapper +1 for whatever reason
<jelkner> so if it fills some good need and we can get it done, we are ahead
<JaneW> is there agreement of my sledgehammer non-democratc approach?
<mhz> ;)
<ogra> JaneW, yes
<lucasvo1> JaneW: what is so non-democratic?
* JaneW claps
<flint_> so the audience is teachers...
<jelkner> ok, in that case, we have a plan that will involve much less work from the technical folks and much more opportuniy for community participation
<mhz> imho, audience = any person in a school taking care of a lab
<lucasvo1> I would say the audiense are teachers with a little aim to get to know something about the techniques used in school
<JaneW> flint_: no the auduence is whoever is going to set the lab up, which is likely educators in a lot of cases
<jelkner> we are going to have a real cookbook, complete with lots of recipies
<mhz> (computing lab)
<flint_> ok educator not teacher...
<JaneW> lucasvo: I guess it wasn't that undemocratic, just manipulative ;)
<jelkner> kevin and flint have taken a stab at an outline already
<lucasvo1> I would say NO education
<lucasvo1> why shouldn't one use it at home?
<JaneW> mhz: agreed
<jelkner> so if anyone wants to participate, we can invite them to submit a recipie
<JaneW> jelkner: nice idea
<mhz> wiki:EdubuntuRecipies :D
<flint_> lucasvol, educator rather than education, 
<lucasvo1> I would say: any person who is aimed to learn a at least llittlebit about techniques used and has a goal to set up a lab 
<lucasvo1> flint_: yes exactly
<jelkner> mhz: great
<JaneW> jelkner: we can also have community contributed hints and tips and 'favourite recipes' etc ;)
<mhz> oooh, that was a thought
<jelkner> JaneW
<jelkner> JaneW: yes!
* mhz always speaks his mind 
<kjcole> Before we decided to strip down the original, I tossed around an outline idea or three with flint (partially as a practical matter, partially to learn bzr)  Those are at: http://docbox.flint.com/~kjcole/outlines.html 
<jelkner> ok, we will have an update in 2 weeks
<jelkner> can we be early on the agenda for then?
<JaneW> great, thanks guys :)
<JaneW> sure
<flint_>  "Who is the target audience for the cookbook?"
<flint_> Two ways this question can be answered. The two ways are...
<flint_> 1. "focus Elkner-san" apporoach ..this is a target rich environment.  pick one and nail it.
<flint_> 2. "big tent many Clowns"  develop a framework and fill as fast as possible.
<JaneW> next week ogra and I are at the distrosprint, and may not make the meeting...
<JaneW> depends how full our schedule is there...
<ogra> i'd like to make it, but leats see
<mhz> JaneW: jelkner: and we could even have EdubuntuStudyContent (fr whatever LMS we package)
<JaneW> if there is going to be NO meeting I'll let you know by the end of Tuesday.
<jelkner> mhz: yes, but that will take longer
<kjcole> flint_ Big KITCHEN, many COOKS (spoil the... never mind)
<JaneW> thanks jelkner and kjcole 
<jelkner> ok, i've got to go, thanks everyone!
<mhz> jelkner: sure, but I am already listing some contents for a couple of 'pilot' training courses on Edubuntu for Teachers :D
<JaneW> have a good day
<jelkner> bye
<flint_> later jeff...
<lucasvo1> bye jelkner
<ogra> ciao jelkner 
<JaneW> I ma happy that jelkner and kjcole have swing votes wrt the cook book to ensure that it has direction
<mhz> bye jelkner 
<JaneW> ok, on the tech news
<flint_> kjcole, I do like the cookbook motif...
<JaneW> ogra: you been pulled into ubuntu work this week?
<ogra> sure
<ogra> we had UVF, so i had to finish merges etc
<ogra> additionally i was 3 days at the eurolinux conference
<ogra> so not much edubuntu development this week
<JaneW> are all merges done now?
<flint_> neat, how was eurolunux...
<ogra> sure
<JaneW> ok so where are we at?
<JaneW> Edubuntu Flight 3 released
<ogra> flint_, a bit diasappointing
<JaneW> how's it looking?
<flint_> ogra, sorry.
<ogra> JaneW, yes, we are at flight 3
<JaneW> and how much more ids there to do?
<ogra> flight 4 will have gobby included 
<JaneW> ogra: did you see silbs' response re the artwork?
<JaneW> great, is there a date for flight 4 yet?
<ogra> i only have to finish my goals, am waiting for a initramfs patch that infinity wants to make and a patch to gdm seb128 needs to review
<ogra> i guess flight4 might be past the sprint
<ogra> i doubt Kamion wants to do only CD work during the sprint
<JaneW> ogra: no I expect it will be week after next
<JaneW> when is the next freeze date?
<ogra> one week after the sprint iirc
<JaneW> Feb 23
<kjcole> ogra: I forget: Is sobby mature enough to go along with gobby?
<JaneW> Feature Freeze
<JaneW> wtf is sobby?
<ogra> kjcole, sobby is in universe :/
<JaneW> ogra battled to get gobby in, pitti was initially not happy with it.
<ogra> its not really matureds
<kjcole> JaneW a stand-alone server for gobby
<JaneW> kjcole: oic
<ogra> JaneW, sobby is cool, but had only its first release ...
<ogra> its a bit young yet
<JaneW> ogra: re artwork
<ogra> yup
<flint_> kjcole, you got sobby running eh?
<mhz> ogra: will an LMS be included ready to use ?
<JaneW> if we only get one set of prof work can we use that for the default install?
<ogra> i would like to propose to go with mid age rather than young age as default
<JaneW> ogra: we will then need to use community work for other optional looks
<ogra> but yes, we can ...
<JaneW> ogra: ok, does everyone agree with that?
<kjcole> flint_ tried it out ONCE and it worked okay for the few minutes of testing...
<JaneW> go for a default install aimed at 10-16 year olds
<JaneW> instead of the younger crowd
<JaneW> ?
<mhz> JaneW: i do
<ogra> kjcole, look at it with 20 ppl logged in ...
<JaneW> the 3rd option will just be very plain, so shouldn;t take much
<ogra> JaneW, yup
<flint_> JaneW, the skin of this has always been your call.
<ogra> i'd like to be able to use something from the community for the young ones ... 
<kjcole> ogra: +1 re: mid-range
<ogra> having a bit freedom there would be nicer
<flint_> ogra, what about a menu choice of skin in flight 4?
<JaneW> flint_: not really, in the first release I was applying the decisions from the summit, with a good dose of personal preference admittedly ;)
<JaneW> ok then we need to doc this change
<ogra> flint_, already there through dpkg-reconfigure
<JaneW> we have it published that the default is the younger skin
<ogra> flint_, i'm just missing skins :)
<flint_> JaneW, If you do not continue to lead the art aspect, we will have nothing to annoy you about... :^)
<ogra> so all you select looks the same
<JaneW> :P
<JaneW> ogra: so the splash screens will all be the same right>
<JaneW> ?
<mhz> JaneW: so, default = 10 -> 16 y.o ?
<JaneW> just wall papper and fonts and icons will vary?
<JaneW> mhz: it seems so yes.
<ogra> JaneW, we can still decide that later in case we get some community contributions
<ogra> artwork freeze is far in the future
<JaneW> ogra: will management agree? I don;t want a ton of bricks dropped on me again ;)
<ogra> (UI freeze)
<JaneW> ogra: I will need to rally for them
<ogra> we have still time to discuss that 
<mhz> JaneW: and slib willprovide what?
<ogra> i'll answer the artwork thread today
<JaneW> silbs will proved one set of art work, not 3
<mhz> ooops, rephrase, and what would slib provide then?
<JaneW> so it;s up to us to arrnage the rest
<ogra> the default artwork
<JaneW> and the prof work will be used for the default install
<kjcole> (I think I can speak for jelkner as a +1 on artwork scaled to an older audience as well. Not that as a high school teacher he has a bias or anything... ;-))
<mhz> yeah but wich age? or you mean 10 to 16 year olds
<mhz> ?
<flint_> JaneW, since when are you so worried about management?  ticking off mdz is a shared pleasure.
<JaneW> flint_: yeah but I
<JaneW> 'll be seeing him next week, so I'm scared ;)
<ogra> flint_, but you never gain what you want ...
<ogra> flint_, so its just a waste of energy :)
<ogra> (ticking off mdz i mean)
<flint_> ogra, na, you need to take this in a life-context, all I really enjoy is making matt think!
<ogra> flint_, at 4am in the morning ?
<flint_> ogra, 04:30 and he was awake...
<ogra> i woulddnt expect anyone to *think* at this time 
<flint_> you do not know matt.  he was using that as a pretext.
<JaneW> ok what else is on the agenda?
<mhz> JaneW: so, slib will provide 10 -16 ?
<flint_> anyway, the art thing is a good idea.
<JaneW> mhz: I need to follow up with her again
<ogra> me too
<mhz> ooh, okis
<JaneW> mhz: I previously communicated that 6-10 would be the default install
<mhz> hehehe
<ogra> i'm still lagging behind with mail 
<flint_> JaneW, who or what is slib?
<JaneW> mhz: we decided to change that today
<JaneW> mhz: so we need to document and communicate that.
<ogra> i think we grew up a bit and the artwork should reflect that :)
<JaneW> ogra: ok
<JaneW> ogra: and gartoon?
<ogra> for 0-6 
<JaneW> ogra: the rest of the look and feel?
<mhz> ogra: i totally agree
<ogra> a community wallpaper for 0-6 is easy to grab from a.u.c
<ogra> i'm uncertain about 10-X
<JaneW> ok, I'll mail the powers that be, I'd like to see the font and icon choices etc to see the new look
<mhz> JaneW: ogra: my art boys have not given priority to edubunut artwork because they noticed default won't be ours, so they want on vacation until nextweek ,afaik :(
<ogra> i think font is up to us ... and for the older ages we should just go with the default icons ...
<JaneW> mhz: :( understandable...
<mhz> JaneW: understandable but I dont like it
<JaneW> ppl like the current font and icons in my experience btw...
<ogra> so lets probably keep the icons and font for 6-10 as well
<mhz> JaneW: however, I had done some little stuff for a grown-up dark theme ;) (so at least, wallpaper and GTK theme is ready)
<ogra> and just change the wallpaper between these two ...
<ogra> but that still leaves open 10-X 
<JaneW> ogra: I suspect we'll have to have a couple of options and display them to management, and let them make the final call.
<flint_> ogra, I personally fee that an X rates theme will have little classroom use :^)
<ogra> flint_, come on, thats for the grown ups :)
<flint_> ogra, here is where you may have issue with management.  
<ogra> JaneW, fine with me
<ogra> flint_, naah, we have so beatiful nekkid peoplle pics we could use
<ogra> ;)
<flint_> seriously, stick to your guns and make management put resources into the mechanisim of this product.  do not work so hard on the show-y outside as an issue.
<mhz> JaneW: ogra: just let me know if the 'options-to-show' are needed and I will move the earth to get it done very quickly
<ogra> flint_, in any case the screenshots are what people look at
<flint_> ogra, I know, it is just not what I see...
<JaneW> mhz: options-to-show?
<ogra> JaneW, community artwork for inclusion
<mhz> JaneW: I thought you wanted to discuss this with management 
<mhz> and if needed community artwork, I could surely put some nice pressure on it
<flint_> mhz, one of my favorite reasons for calling folks at odd hours is that "management" should be here or it should be us!
<mhz> hehehe, :)
<JaneW> we still have http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/edubuntu/ for community art work submissions
<JaneW> please use it
<mhz> in case someone needs daaarrrkk GTK -> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/MauricioHernandez/EdubuntuRelatedPhotos
<flint_> this "management" issue is the major strutural flaw in edubuntu, and someone should communicate it eh Jane?
<JaneW> mhz: I am pretty sure we will need community work, we have been told we only get one set of prof work, and I repleid saying we'd need to use community stuff for the rest
<JaneW> I am assuming 'silence gives consent'
<mhz> JaneW: lol! I love your idea
<ogra> flint_, management issue ? 
<JaneW> mhz: wow - why so dark?
<JaneW> mhz: could be good for the plain one that was requested
<mhz> JaneW: because I have intolerance to light
<JaneW> mhz: more terminal like and less distracting
<JaneW> mhz: oic
<mhz> and because I love terminal looks :D
<flint_> ogra, later.
<JaneW> ok our time is up
<JaneW> are we done?
<mhz> JaneW: I was making a greyish one (kind of metalic g4 powerbook) but ended up with black :P
<JaneW> so do we have no voluntary scribe?
<JaneW> mhz: grey could be nice
<mhz> scribe?
<JaneW> mhz: minute taker
<JaneW> mhz: person to document the meeting decisions and actions
<mhz> JaneW: yeah, the idea was grey-water-metallic
<mhz> JaneW: how soon do you need the minutes of the meetings?
<JaneW> mhz: asap, but really we just need them done
<flint_> mhz,  interesting stuff Mauricio, I gotta stick with the janester here, can you turn it up to say, grey?
<JaneW> I was doing them after the meeting each week, but I just never get around to doing them anymore
<JaneW> mhz: ideally within a day of the meeting
<JaneW> mhz: in point form would be fine
<mhz> JaneW: if it is ok, I can have them done as soon as I finish my 3 letters and provide breakfast to family (total 4 hours)
<JaneW> mhz: perfect!
<ogra_> grumble
<JaneW> mhz: you really are a star
<mhz> JaneW: then we'll have those minutes today before 5 hours
* JaneW hugs mhz
<ogra> mhz, btw, its caller 6.04, not 6.4
<flint_> JaneW, this thing with Mauricio is a good thing.
<mhz> JaneW: not a star, just a guy still wanting to try out your cakes :D
<ogra> *called
<mhz> ogra: duh! yeah! food point
<mhz> good
<ogra> :)
<mhz> flint_: grey, sure! that was gonna be it until I thought people would not use such a plain dark thing :)
<kjcole> (mhz, freudian slip "food point" with all that talk about breakfast and cakes.) 
<mhz> yup, lol!
<flint_> mhz, did you get an account on the docbox
<mhz> well, I have to run to provide breakfast before you get evening news saying "young very handsome chubby chilean died this morning..."
<mhz> flint_: dont remember.. I have been very bussy trying to get sponsors for Ubuntu Tour in LA
<mhz_food> I'll keep this open for 'minutes' purposes
<mhz_food> See ya all later, alegators!
<kjcole> I plan to write up something of a "best practices" for bzr (as gleaned from talks with ogra, jblack and lifeless) and put them in both the wiki and docbox. 
<flint_> kjcole, I think we will serve mhz up on the server eh?
<flint_> as they say at Gallaudet, as Kevin has taught me, breakfast awaits stop keying, stop keying := sksk
<JaneW> mhz_food: hehehe
<flint_> bye all sksk
<kjcole> later flint sksk
<ogra> kjcole, according to a mail from sabdfl we'll have the supermirror soon
* JaneW must go
<kjcole> ogra, yeah I saw that e-mail and sent it to flint and a few others.
<ogra> great
<kjcole> ogra, but what I meant was the ideas of people should expect someone central to pull / merge, rather than each of them trying to push to the central repository.
<kjcole> Time for me to run... as usual.  Ta-ta.
<lucasvo> ogra: what means "soon"?
<lucasvo> :p
<lucasvo> when will the supermirror be available?
<ogra> no idea, the code snippets are there
<lucasvo> so it will be integrated into launchpad?
<ogra> but the launcpad team is busy with changing the build environment from buildds to launchpad ..
<ogra> it will be the core of launchpad, yes
<lucasvo> ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-01-31
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] :  Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/   | 26 Jan 20:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status |  27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting | 31 Jan  20:00 UTC:  Technical Board | 1 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 7 Feb 12:00 UTC: Community Council
<ranf> hi
<allee> #apt-proxy
<mdz> JaneW: would you check that everyone is here?
<pitti> Good evening ladies and gentlemen
<mdz> (everyone we expect, that is)
<Riddell> hi
<Keybuk> ..., transgendered, undecided and everywhere in between
<Kamion> mdz: I'm here, but we have a sick child here so I may have to leave at very short notice; in case I do, JaneW has my update
<pitti> Keybuk: don't forget about the aliens as well :)
<jbailey> Long haired slackjawed hippy here.
<mdz> Kamion: ok
<ogra> meep
* fabbione waves
<JaneW> mdz: will do, just gathering excuses/updates
<Keybuk> pitti: hmm, what was that term Banks used for the "one in between"?  "Apex"?
<Kamion> yes
<pitti> Keybuk: no idea what you mean
<JaneW> BenC, doko, fabbione, infinity,  Mithrandir ping
<infinity> pong
<fabbione> pong
<jbailey> Keybuk: I haven't come up with a graceful way to say "Ladies, Gentleman and Trannies" yet, and the GBILTQQ group that I know doesn't have any suggestions.
<BenC> here
<doko> JaneW: pong
<JaneW> mjg59, seb128, Riddell : ping
<seb128> JaneW: why pinging me? :)
<seb128> pong :)
<JaneW> sivang: ping
<jbailey> seb128: She's doing Matt's bidding. =)
<Riddell> JaneW: pong
<JaneW> seb128: checking if everyone is here for meeting
<JaneW> seb128: like we do every week
<Riddell> my polite "hi" must not be audible enough
<pitti> seb128: and you better pong back, you know JaneW's whip :)
<seb128> JaneW: right, I just joined so I thought it was clear I was around, but not harm to ping :)
<JaneW> mvo, dholbach & iwj have sent appologies
<JaneW> and Kamion may need to be excused
<JaneW> Riddell: yes sorry I missed that ;)
<JaneW> shout next time ;)
<Keybuk> btw, what are we doing for the meeting next week?
<Mithrandir> HELLO, JANE
<JaneW> is daniels expected or not?
<Kamion> Keybuk: 10am
<mdz> Keybuk: we'll all sit on IRC of course
<JaneW> HELLO TOLLEF
<Mithrandir> :-)
<Keybuk> Kamion: aww, I was quite looking forwards to doing it at 2am after clubbing ;)
<mdz> ok, let's get started
<mdz> BenC: you're up
<infinity> JaneW: Seems unlikely.
<JaneW> Keybuk: pah
<BenC> community-server-hardware-testing: General support is in place. Announcement to start community testing will go out today or tomorrow.
<BenC> Kernel status: Currently working on regressions in snd-powermac. Going back through bug reports to work on regressions from breezy.
<Keybuk> JaneW: I was especially looking forward to how you'd cope with it :p
<mdz> BenC: if you need extra hands dealing with the community interaction for server testing, I'm sure fabbione as server team lead will be happy to oblige
<BenC> mdz: ok
<fabbione> mdz: did i say that while i was drunk?
<JaneW> :P......*
<BenC> hehe
<mdz> fabbione: I paid helen back for you
<mdz> BenC: thanks
<fabbione> mdz: ok thanks.
<mdz> JaneW: dholbach?
<Keybuk> he "walking the dog" again? ;)
<JaneW> I have that hang on
<JaneW> dholbach: this week (done): bug triage, updates, motu organisation
<JaneW> this week (todo): getting ekiga, bug triage, apt-get.org reviews
<JaneW> next week: gnome 2.13.90, bug triage, apt-get.org reviews 
<JaneW> he is at a trade show
<mdz> ok
<mdz> doko: next
<ogra> presenting edubuntu *g* :)
<doko> mdz: can we have a short rount at the end about who brings which hardware to the meeting?
<mdz> doko: sure
<JaneW> ogra: yay
<doko> this week:
<doko> - openoffice.org: ongoing merging with Debian unstable, setup baz archive for the debian/ parts, starting test builds to identify bugs present in Ubuntu but not in other distros.
<doko> - python-roadmap: python-central update, discussions/coordination with debian-python
<doko> - other: syncs/merges, updates to new upstream versions, make mozilla
<doko> - java-roadmap: make mozilla-dev usable again, eclipse updates (works on i386, problems on amd64)
<doko> next week:
<doko> - distro sprint
<mdz> in fact, if everyone would include their sprint ideas with their updates, that would be great
<mdz> doko: anything in particular you will be working on during the sprint?
<mdz> BenC: same question
<doko> sprint ideas:
<doko> == Transitions ==
<doko>  * Drop Python2.3, convert packages in main to use python-central/python-support (MatthiasKlose)
<doko> == Discussions ==
<doko>  * How to dump^Wdemote package from main to the MOTUs?
<doko>  * Planning work for dapper+1-toolchain. Is it still needed/appropriate? Or just let it happen as in the past?
<doko>  * ISDN testing (MichaelVogt, MatthiasKlose) 
<mdz> cool
<BenC> mdz: nothing in particular
<doko> I'd like to have some feedback about the python packaging
<doko> at the sprint ...
<mdz> doko: thanks
<mdz> fabbione? 
<infinity> doko : I may have some things to say about it.  I haven't been following the debian-ptython stuff recently, though.
<fabbione> * server-candy: no progress. Added -server activities to DistroSprint2006Ideas
<fabbione> * ubuntu-cluster: no progress.
<fabbione> * boot-from-usb: implemented.
<fabbione> * last week: Holidays.
<fabbione> * this week: catch up from hell with emails and other activities. Started apache-mini-sprint today.
<fabbione> * next week: distro sprint: server candy work.
* pitti points people to https://wiki.canonical.com/DistroSprintLondon2006Ideas again
<mdz> fabbione: thanks
<mdz> infinity?
<fabbione> mdz: welcome
<infinity> last week: was on VAC all last week except for today; no spec progress (obviously), and good progress on Apache 2.2 today at the Apache minisprint.
<infinity> next week: more apache mini-sprint, then distro sprint.
<infinity> sprint ideas: I'd like to clear up any major library transitions we need done, while I have people there to bug about FTBFS issues and such.
<mdz> cool, thanks
<mdz> JaneW: ian?
<JaneW> iwj sent me load of stuff ito updates... let me know when to stop ;)
<JaneW> Tasks and work progress:
<JaneW> AutomatedTesting: initial package uploaded to Debian and Ubuntu, autodebtest 0.5.1, awaiting NEW processing in both. Announcement not yet written; I'll do that when it's in at least one of the archives (announcement(s) will go to u-devel and d-devel at least). Next steps: wire piuparts into it (some design required); talk to soyuz and sysadmin people about what shape interface they want for automatic testing of uploads; write m
<JaneW> ore per-package tests.
<JaneW> Firefox: persistent but not consistent reports of crashes. I suspect the Flash plugin. There are definite problems with the hack for Flash sound support, which I plan to disable. See https://launchpad.net/malone/bugs/29760.
<JaneW> DeveloperDocumentation: Not started, not blocked.
<JaneW> Email backlog: caught up (yay)
<JaneW> Things to do at the sprint:
<JaneW> * I would like anyone with a firefox bug to please demo it front of me. I want to spend much of the week trying to track as many of these down as possible.
<JaneW> * AutomatedTesting discussions with sysadmin/soyuz people, to result in agreed interface shape and/or tasks. See above. Will elmo be at the sprint ?
<JaneW> * There are some systematic problems with the LP UI (for example, the
<JaneW> 3-column layout is one of my pet peeves). To appropriately drive
<JaneW> change on these issues, we (the distro team) need to 1. discuss
<JaneW> amongst ourselves what our opinions are and 2. come to some
<JaneW> conclusions that have strong and broad support in the distro team.
<JaneW> This will clarify discussions with LP designers and help us to drive
<JaneW> good changes (even if they can't be implemented right away).
<JaneW> It will also allow us to identify criticisms that are not widely
<JaneW> shared so that those people can know they're not going to win the
<JaneW> argument and can stop arguing. I would suggest the following
<JaneW> structure: 1. plenary meeting (1h) to brainstorm opinions/
<JaneW> criticisms/ideas and nominate champions for particular points of view
<JaneW> (with lists of rough supporters for champions to talk to);
<JaneW> 2. refinement by champions offline and with informal discussions;
<JaneW> 3. plenary meeting where champions present opinions and meeting
<JaneW> decides (by show of hands if necessary) which opinions have consensus.
<JaneW> (Note that I envisage that some champions' positions will be
<JaneW> indepedent of each other, but others might be contradictory.) This
<JaneW> will take about 3h for each distro team member, which I hope is not
<JaneW> too much and I think it will help clear the air.
<JaneW> 4. consensus views documented by champions passed to LP development
<mdz> I don't think it'll be necessary to wire testing into uploads; we can just periodically test the archive
<JaneW> team (eg as bug reports).
<JaneW> ok the last line...
<JaneW> Probably, you don't want to paste all of that into the meeting :-).
<JaneW> So as a summary:
<Kamion> heh, bit late
<JaneW> * IWJ would like to come to closure, and rough consensus, on disputed LP UI issues - at least within the distro team.
<JaneW> :)
<pitti> mdz: hm, rejecting uploads on regressions would be sexy, though
<Keybuk> he does realise that we did all this at UBZ, especially jbailey and I, and we managed to get just one slight change to the UI out of all of our work? :)
<Kamion> (worth noting that bradb has got approval for a 2-column layout for some of the bug pages)
<mdz> yes, elmo will be at the sprint
<mdz> Kamion: !
<Keybuk> Kamion: "one" of the bug pages :)  but yes, \o/
<Kamion> mdz: should be in either #ubuntu-devel or #canonical archives for today, I forget which
<Kamion> I think it was the bug contact index
<mdz> JaneW: I don't want to argue launchpad UI issues at the sprint; LP won't be represented there
<ogra> for the overview and search output page
<JaneW> mdz: ok, I'll gag him
<mdz> it would just be us complaining
<ogra> http://flickr.com/photos/84096161@N00/91073757/
<mdz> I've received email with Malone issues from some of you, but not all
* Kamion notes autodebtest being accepted into dapper
<ogra> 2 column layout ^^
<mdz> those of you who didn't send mail don't get to complain about Malone :-)
<mdz> JaneW: thanks
<jbailey> mdz: The rest of us are just filing bugs instead. ;)
<mdz> jbailey: I do want to be in the loop regarding what's most hurting you
<jbailey> mdz: 'k
<mdz> I will chase those down with LP mgmt personally
<mdz> a list of 3 bug numbers is sufficient
<jbailey> Cool.
<mdz> jbailey: anything to report status-wise?
<jbailey>  * Toolchainroadmap - I'd like to peel off the timezone data from glibc and put them into the langpacks.  It's not an ideal fit, but timezone data is updated a number of times (6 to 10) a year.  Have already had one request to update Breezy.  Spoke with pitti, it seems good.  Will figure out what this means and email to mdz for an okay.
<jbailey> == Sprint Ideas ==
<jbailey>  * Roundtable discussion of dropping pre-i686 from main Ubuntu port.  A side effect of this is probably a discussion on buntu.
<jbailey>  * Group session to understand how langpack updates work, and how I should work with pitti (and others?) to get updates in.
<jbailey>  * Jam session.  Bring instruments. =)
<jbailey> 
<JaneW> jbailey: we making jam? 8)
<Keybuk> mdz: I've tended to just talk to bradb directly ;)
<pitti> jbailey: s/langpacks/locales package/ I assume?
<jbailey> pitti: Yes, sorry.
<mdz> jbailey: cool, thanks
<mdz> JaneW: anything from jdub?
<JaneW> nope, not a word
<mdz> Kamion: next
<Kamion> cd-bootloader: Implemented keymap selection. Only localised help is left here.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express-bootloader: Implemented espresso-grub. (This just needs espresso-yaboot now and then it'll be done, and I think that's fairly easy.)
<Kamion> ue-partitioning-tool: Made formatting and mounting be done using partman too, which eliminates some duplication and some outright wrong and dangerous code. UI still slow and clunky though; I have plans for this, probably to be discussed and played with at the sprint.
<Kamion> ubuntu-express: Would have uploaded an initial working-for-me version today but for my disk problems. I'll do it tomorrow.
<Kamion> misc: Low-memory installation support improved (successful 32MB installation on i386).
<Kamion> sprint-plans: Get somebody else up to speed on roughly how Espresso works so that they can help me, and work on UI and performance. Live CD on USB sticks, maybe? Localised help in the new CD boot loader?
<mdz> Kamion: please send something to ubuntu-devel when your WFM version is in dapper
<mdz> Kamion: thanks
<Kamion> will do
<mdz> Keybuk?
<Keybuk> streamlined-boot: going well, various tweaks remaining but nothing earth shattering
<Keybuk> network-magic: networking hotplugs again, known bugs: no /etc/resolv.conf and no ifrename
<Keybuk> sprint: madwifi-ng and network-manager testing, make alsa udev-froody, vmware testing and pretty much stealing hardware from people to test
<Kamion> probably once I've got a live CD image with it on
<mdz> Keybuk: we should perhaps have a chat about this mount --move /var business ;-)
<Keybuk> mdz: oh?
<mdz> Keybuk: you should have heard the noise elmo made
<Keybuk> it only does it quickly ;)
<mdz> LOOK OVER THERE shuffleshuffle NOTHING TO SEE HERE
<Keybuk> pretty much, yes
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks
<JaneW> mdz: I have mailed sivang, lathiat and krstic for updates, no reponse, yet.
<mdz> Mithrandir?
<Keybuk> but yes, that's still looking for a better solution, don't worry :)
<Mithrandir> ooo-amd64: no progress
<Mithrandir> live-cd-performance: waiting for scott to do readahead magic, no progress on lzma
<Mithrandir> simplified-livecd: almost there, merged the espresso hooks from Colin, keymapper not there yet, waiting for some code from daniels
<Mithrandir> probe-for-root-fs: no progress
<Mithrandir> blocked on: live-cd-performance is semi-blocked on Scott, still no access to popcon.ubuntu.com
<Mithrandir> next week: apache sprint, distro sprint
<Keybuk> oh, sprint+=readahead with mithrandir :)
<Mithrandir> sprint stuff: get up to speed on u-e, get my specs done.
<JaneW> mdz: will mail mjg59 too if he is not here
<mdz> I think mjg59 has been swallowed by his Ph.D
<JaneW> what of his goal?
<ogra> power manager
<mdz> please try to find out if we need to hand some of his work off to others
<JaneW> power-management-config
<ogra> is fine and working, all bits from mjg are in place so far
<JaneW> ogra: what more is required
<ogra> we ysould promote it to main 
<Mithrandir> good that mjg59 isn't missing any parts.
<mdz> Mithrandir: ok, thanks
<Kamion> I need to go NOW, sorry
<mdz> JaneW: mvo?
<mdz> Kamion: understood
<JaneW> mvo: Dev-Meeting 2006-01-26
<ogra> Mithrandir, heh
<JaneW> Did:
<JaneW> * dist-upgrade tool:
<JaneW>  - got/answered lots of feedback
<JaneW>  - fixed lots of bugs
<JaneW>  - auto-retry on network failures
<JaneW>  - fixed kubuntu-desktop upgrade
<JaneW>  - improved logging a lot
<JaneW>  - has forced obsoletes now (for e.g. xscreensaver)
<JaneW>  - i18n works 
<JaneW>  - big problem are dpkg failures (e.g. failed postinst) in the middle
<Kamion> hardware I'm bringing to the sprint: amd64 desktop + keyboard + monitor, including vmware installation; my powerbok
<JaneW> of a upgrade
<JaneW>  - [trivia: we made it to a big german IT news site (golem.de) with it] 
<Kamion> powerbook, whatever
<JaneW> * gnome-app-install: 
<JaneW>  - new-look
<JaneW> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/gnome-app-install/new-look/gai--new-look.png
<JaneW> implemented, can this go into dapper? or is it too
<JaneW> late? The old treeview dosn't scale well with many packages [ThirdPartyPackages] 
<JaneW> * gdebi:
<JaneW>  - improved ui (HIG), drag'n'drop. do we want it in main as default
<JaneW> handler for .debs? [ThirdPartySpec] 
<JaneW> * notification-daemon transition again (minor api changes only, look
<JaneW> of the notifications changed again) [DapperDesktopPlan] 
<JaneW> * various small stuff (python-apt, update-notifier, synaptic,
<JaneW> update-manager
<JaneW> will do:
<Mithrandir> yeah, I'm bringing a 160GB drive and a 74GB raptor.  Those can be used for test installs and crack, but they'd need SATA cables, both signals and power.
<JaneW> - more upgrade tool work
<JaneW> - send report to ubuntu-devel about current upgrade testing (failures
<JaneW> in packages)
<JaneW> - maybe upload gnome-app-install new-look into dapper (if it will be approved)
<mdz> we definitely want gdebi in main
<mdz> and if it feels good, in desktop
<mdz> JaneW: no sprint ideas from mvo?
<JaneW> mdz: no sorry
<mdz> JaneW: please collate everyone's suggestions from here and the wiki page into a list we can use next week
<mdz> ogra?
<JaneW> mdz: will do
<ogra> * thin-client-memory-usage: did some more playing with nbd
<ogra> * thin-client-faster-startup: no work this week
<ogra> * gnome-screensaver-default-image: package done will upload with dummy for now ... sabdfl images after the asia tour
<ogra> * general: last merges, flight 3, eurolinux conference, fiddling with etherboot stuff
<ogra> * next week:  sprint ... will do mostly ltsp spec finishing, uploading the final xscreensaver split
<ogra> === sprint ideas ===
<ogra> flight 4 testing session since we all can share one CD set and will have a bunch of differnt HW ;)
<pitti> JaneW: can we collect it right on the wiki page?
<ogra> === will bring ===
<ogra> compaq thin client+ keyboard/mouse
<ogra> ibook
<ogra> amd64 lappie
<ogra> usb dvd writer
<ogra> 160GB ide disk if needed
<ogra> both laptops have spare patitions for test installs
<mdz> ogra: what's left for faster-startup?
<JaneW> pitti: certainly - in fact please do
<ogra> that we talk about initscript removal ;) removing them doesnt work, i think we need to set them to K
<fabbione> JaneW: I will bring my powerbook, usb hd for testing, local copies of all the .iso, dvd burner, some cd/dvd media.
<pitti> JaneW: that's the page I announced for collecting ideas, so if you want to add anything, there's no need for another place imho
<ogra> mdz, additionally the intiramfs patch infinity wants to talk about at the sprint
<JaneW> pitti: indeed I'll use that, it was listed in my mail earlier too
<mdz> ogra: doesn't work?
<mdz> ogra: ok, let's talk about it after the meeting or tomorrow
<ogra> mdz, not for rcS
<Keybuk> JaneW: I'll bring my laptop, powerbook, guitar, and anything else I can reasonably lug on the train
<mdz> ogra: did you ask anyone else?
<ogra> i talked with pere
<infinity> ogra: I'll be doing a fair chunk of initramfs hacking at the sprint, to get everyone's pet bugs sorted.
<ogra> but i see that they are recreated in rcS
<infinity> ogra: So, just tap me on the shoulder, and we'll sor tit.
<infinity> sort it, too.
<ogra> infinity, thats what i was referring to
<mdz> ogra: recreated, really?
<mdz> ogra: ok, talk to infinity about it rather than me
<mdz> he's even in a convenient time zone
<ogra> or reinstalled ... they are there again :)
<pitti> I thought they were just recreated if all symlinks are removed
<mdz> ogra: thanks
<infinity> ogra: That's a feature.  Talk to me about that one, too.  (the init scripts)
<mdz> pitti?
<ogra> infinity, oki
<pitti> langpacks-desktopfiles:
<pitti>  * implemented langpack support for .directory files
<pitti>  * added cdbs part for langpack support for .server files
<pitti>  * zyga looked into the gnome side of that and should have something going by start of next week (otherwise I'll finish that; we will definitively have it for dapper)
<pitti>  * wrote a script to track rebuild progress and catch packages which need manual fixes
<pitti>  * talked to Riddell, KDE seems more difficult; mdz, can we split that into a separate spec and assign that to Riddel?
<pitti> other stuff this week: cups bug fixing, cleaned up ALSA configuration file handling, improved default sound card selection, langpack update for breezy (95% finished, will upload tonight if testing goes well), some security updates
<pitti> no progress on other specs
<pitti> plan: finish breezy langpack update, complete implementation of gnome side of langpacks-desktopfiles, catch up on bug triage, work with infinity on PHP security update
<pitti> sprint ideas so far: work on transitions with infinity (openssl, libdb, mozilla, mysql); work on various locales stuff with jbailey; help testing/implementing NetworkMagic and work on the linux-wlan-ng side for it (since it's a bit 'spethial')
<pitti> sprint hardware: iBook, USB wireless (linux-wlan-ng), usb stick, usb headset
<mdz> pitti: feel free to break out the KDE bits and hand off to Riddell
<pitti> mdz: ok, I'll do that; easier to track that way
<pitti> btw, langpack testing is thumbs up
<mdz> cool
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<pitti> yay rosetta
<mdz> seb128?
<seb128> dapper-desktop-plan: hacked gdm to have the new menu and icons for entries as described by the spec, edited the ubuntu-artwork theme according to the spec
<seb128> gstreamer0.10: updated rhythmbox (now daap works with gst0.10), new upstream version of totem. New gnome-media and sound-juicer switched to gst0.10. Only gnome-applets (has a patch upstream), evolution (just a plugin, we don't need to build it) and serpentine (SVN ported) require 0.8, we can probably kick gstreamer0.8 out of the desktop next week
<seb128> other: bug triage, bug triage, some GNOME updates, comments on launchpad, played with the new gconf (split of the .xml by locale) on different boxes before uploading it
<pitti> late, but good :)
<seb128> .
<seb128> next week (sprint): GNOME 2.13.90, discussion about debugging packages for dapper (would make bug work much easier for distro and upstream), getting opinions on the desktop changes for dapper (what we need to adjust, what others changes we want to do)
<mdz> seb128: nice, thanks
<mdz> Riddell?
<Riddell> kubuntu-dapper-roadmap: KDE 3.5.1 packaging
<Riddell> kubuntu-package-manager: discussions with mornfall and mdz, I believe he's still to forward final costings though
<Riddell> also: revu, koffice beta packaging, fixing upgrade
<Riddell> blocking: mdz to decide on kde 3.5.1 upload
<Riddell> sprint todo: start porting espresso to qt?
<mdz> Riddell: go for it with 3.5.1
<Riddell> great, thanks
<mdz> Riddell: yes, waiting for pricing from mornfall
<Riddell> he finished his last exam the other day, I'll poke him more
<mdz> Riddell: thanks
<mdz> fastest round of status updates EVAR
<mdz> so who's bringing what musical instruments to the sprint?
<Riddell> my mini mac probably doesn't count
<ogra> i have a blues harp i can bring but cant play it :)
* pitti won't bring the guitar with the plane, but will do so in april
<Keybuk> I can bring guitar
<pitti> will we have any guitar there?
<jbailey> Flute, recorder, might get a drum but I'm not sure yet.
<pitti> jbailey: no chance to forget the recorder?
<mdz> doko: you wanted to discuss bringing hardware?
<mdz> is there specific hardware we need?
<fabbione> my hardware is big enough
<Keybuk> do we know what the network situation there is yet?
<fabbione> Keybuk: 2M/256k
<Keybuk> or is it still "here's an ADSL line, enjoy"?
<Keybuk> oh, good.  elmo: no e-mail for you
<elmo> no sprint for me
<Keybuk> are you not popping down? :(
<ogra> cant you set up a wireless link from mossop street ? 
<mdz> doko?
<elmo> Keybuk: hey, it beats your current internet situation ;-)
<elmo> ogra: across 10 miles?
<elmo> you guys will have your own server
<ogra> some hops needed indeed ;)
<elmo> with local mirror, squid, chroots, whatever you want
<JaneW> elmo: you are doing the server set-up on sunday though, right?
<elmo> I'll QOS upload so you can kill the down
<Mithrandir> apache2.2's proxy stuff is much faster than squid. Or so thom claims.
<elmo> JaneW: nah, distro team sucks I can't be bothered
<elmo> JaneW: (or, rather: yes)
<JaneW> elmo: :P
<ogra> heh
<jbailey> Should we try and dig up a local PPC box for builds for any portability work?
<mdz> server setup party sunday night?
<JaneW> elmo: thanks *ruffle*
<elmo> Mithrandir: well, whichever, I'm not going to be there, you guys can do what you with it
<doko> mdz: For OOo build I think about bringing an amd64 mini pc, just want to avoid to bring the monitor and keyboard
<JaneW> mdz: I'll bring the Amarula
<doko> does somebody has a KVM switch?
<mdz> doko: you could do builds on the server
<Riddell> I'll bring kubuntu CDs
<elmo> doko: the server will be a ronne class dl385
<elmo> doko: would that not suffice?
<mdz> JaneW: excellent!
<Riddell> let me know if you want a box for your LUG etc
<neuralis> mdz: we should discuss server testing after the meeting, there seems to be some confusion
<ogra> can anybody bring a serial mouse i can land until the conference for ltsp testing ? 
<elmo> anyway, I'm brining a monitor and keyboard
<Mithrandir> elmo: shiny.
<ogra> s/land/lend/
<mdz> neuralis: now is OK, we have some extra time
<doko> elmo: no, that's ok, as long as we can install test builds
<fabbione> elmo: are you going to mirror cdimage as well? (just daily?)
<JaneW> ogra: I think I have one lying around somewhere... may have the round connector - that ok?
<elmo> fabbione: probably won't have space to do full cdimage, only 6x72 drive, but can mirror a subset if you tell me what you want
<neuralis> mdz: when we last spoke, you explained you wanted community-s-t to be an outline of testing steps that humans can carry out, much like we have with LaptopTesting
<doko> ogra; serial mouse, what is this? ;-P
<ogra> JaneW, the round one is ps2
<ogra> doko, thats what i'm always asking my edubuntu users ;)
<fabbione> elmo: dunno.. i think daily/live for big 3 will do
<mdz> neuralis: yes, and it looks like you've made a good start on that on ServerTesting
<fabbione> elmo: no need more than that i think
<mdz> neuralis: (that was you, right?)
<elmo> fabbione: well, someone let me know by Saturday night ;-)
<neuralis> mdz: yes, that was me; i wasn't under the impression you wanted anything else for that spec?
<pitti> ogra: I might still have a serial mouse in my cellar somewhere if you need it
<fabbione> elmo: ok
<ogra> pitti, that would be great 
<elmo> doko: as I said, I'm not there, someone else'll be in chargeof the box, so 'tever
<mdz> neuralis: BenC will be coordinating the actual testing with the community
<Keybuk> ogra: I have some serial mice somewhere
<neuralis> mdz: BenC looked over ServerTesting and didn't have additions, so i was expecting you'll simply ok the spec so the remainder of the wiki pages can be created
<ogra> ah, cool 
<ogra> one is enough :)
<mdz> neuralis: my reply about the spec was that it didn't seem to reflect what we agreed on (and indeed what you have already worked on)
<pitti> ogra: don't count on mine :)
<ogra> pitti, k
<ogra> Keybuk, so if you could bring one ...
<Keybuk> ogra: yup, I'm reasonably sure I know where I put them
<ogra> great
<Keybuk> should be in the loft, somewhere under the mess of wires I added last weekend :p
<ogra> lots of ltsp users will owe you one :)
<neuralis> mdz: i altered the spec to leave the 'certification/community testing catalog' spec bits in place, but explicity said we're first approaching the problem via wiki and ServerTesting. would you like me to move all the testing catalog parts to a separate spec?
<mdz> neuralis: yes, I think that would be best.  we're saying that ServerTesting is a target for dapper, and so the spec should reflect the dapper goals
<neuralis> mdz: okay. is there anything else that you want done?
<Mithrandir> mdz: is the meeting adjourned?  I don't think the whole distro team needs to be around for the community server testing thingy?
<mdz> neuralis: thanks for your efforts on those specs
<JaneW> ogra: we do have a serial mouse
<mdz> any other last-minute discussion topics, or shall we finish early for the first time(!)?
<fabbione> the latter++
<JaneW> ogra: ping me tomorrow in case I forget, but I will bring it, if I rem to dig it out the back room
<ogra> JaneW, but Keybuk has the shorter transportation to do
<JaneW> ogra: well if you let me know by 15:00UTC tomorrow if you need it, I can bring it
<mdz> ok
<mdz> adjourned then
<mdz> thanks, everyone
<fabbione> thanks
<Mithrandir> food.
<JaneW> \o/
<ogra> thanks mdz 
<mdz> Mithrandir: you have a hot date or something? ;-)
<Mithrandir> mdz: yeah, infinity and thom and fabio and stuff. :-)
<mdz> I've been attempting to eat pizza for the last 30 minutes
<Keybuk> wow, that is hot
<neuralis> mdz: 21:42 < neuralis> mdz: okay. is there anything else that you want done [for that spec] ?
<mdz> neuralis: no, thank you
* ogra finished his pizza *before* the meeting :)
<pitti> ok, great
<pitti> thanks guys
<JaneW> now I want pizza too!
<pitti> I'm looking forward to meet all of you again next week
<neuralis> mdz: i'll have the relevant bits moved to a separate spec tonight. i still need to chat with mdy regarding actual certification, but i think my mails keep getting caught in his spam filter or such.
* Kamion gets back belatedly, but hey, it's adjourned early! bonus.
<ogra> heh
<Kamion> mdz: looks like we may have to take the child to the hospital tonight; not sure what my availability tomorrow's going to look like yet
<Kamion> dislike of lights, stiff neck, swollen throat; you do the maths
<jbailey> Kamion: Suck.  Warm thoughts to you guys.
<Kamion> thans
<Kamion> +k, even
<mdz> Kamion: that's no fun
<mdz> Kamion: good luck to the three of you
<Kamion> thanks
<simira> a
<simira> sorry
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-02-01
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ |  27 Jan 22:00 UTC: Documentation Team Meeting | 31 Jan  20:00 UTC:  Technical Board | 1 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 2 Feb 10:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 2 Feb 23:00 UTC: Artwork Team |  7 Feb 12:00 UTC: Community Council
<sorush20> why dosen't ubuntu sell webhosting? 
<Nafallo> does Debian?
<Kamion> sorush20: (a) do you mean Canonical rather than Ubuntu? (b) not really our business model, we already use just about all the bandwidth we can at release time :)
<sorush20> Kamion: well Canonical I don't know what they do except provided support for the software , 2)what do you mean ubuntu are they not the same? Well cononical could buy extra bandwidth and sell it off cheaper.. making sure that the customers know that since they are not using their bandwith , it would be used as downloads for ubuntu iso's etc.. 
<sorush20> Nafallo: does debia? 
<Nafallo> no, they doesn't. debian is a linuxdistro, not a webhotel :-).
<Nafallo> same as ubuntu :-)
<Kamion> quite frankly, you're better off with a dedicated web hosting service instead of trying to persuade Canonical to do it on top of the zillion other things we're currently doing ...
<sorush20> Kamion: what zillion other things are you doing? how many customers do you have? 
<Kamion> no, Canonical and Ubuntu are not the same. Canonical started Ubuntu and still provides a big chunk of the development work, but there are many other folks involved now.
<Kamion> Developing Ubuntu, for a start. Developing Launchpad. Supporting paying customers (I don't have the figures). Promotion in developing countries. Etc.
<sorush20> so you could make something like tripod but with out adverts so that people could pay for hosting without adverts and would have to agree to have no support just irc and foums, ? 
<ogra> nope. we couldnt
<ogra> simply because there is no spare manpower for such stuff
<Kamion> we'd have to employ extra sysadmins, buy more datacentre space (I believe our current datacentre is completely full), hire people to run that service, etc. I very much doubt it will happen. People should go to web hosting companies for web hosting, not free software development companies. :)
<sorush20> you don't need man power make it interactive and self sustanied.. 
<Kamion> why are you so keen on trying to persuade us?
<Kamion> (and yes, actually, you *do* need manpower)
<ogra> absolutely
<Kamion> services don't run themselves
<Mithrandir> you need to change disks, fans, replace stuff which breaks, tend to breakins, etc.
<sorush20> well if you were a sysadmin you would say that wouldn;t you cause that would me more work
<Kamion> I'm not a sysadmin
<sorush20> I would be much happier to pay ubuntu or what ever you wana call it for hosting since it going to contribute
<Kamion> doing this would be more likely to detract from our normal functions, I think, so I'd ask that you don't
<sorush20> so howmany customer do you have right now who have paid you ? 
<Kamion> as I say, I genuinely don't have the figures.
* Kamion <-- just a developer
<Nafallo> sorush20: get a cheap webhotel somewhere else and send the Ubuntu Foundation what you spare then? :-)
* ogra lols about "just" in Kamion last sentence 
<Nafallo> :-)
<thom> sorush20: i don't see why you'd want a linux distro to distract itself by doing something that's so far off the rest of its core competencies
<ogra> thom !!
<ogra> bah, gone
<Kamion> the only kind of hosting I believe is on the agenda is the supermirror, i.e. mirroring people's revision control branches for them
<Kamion> that's very specialised though and I don't think it's what you're asking about
<kjcole> Showtime?
<LaserJock> should be
<mdke> yeah, who is around?
<mdke> <-- Matthew East
* kjcole is Kevin Cole
* LaserJock is Jordan Mantha
* rob is lurking
* bustacap is present
<mdke> cool
* jeffsch i'm here
<mdke> ah hey jeffsch 
<mdke> let's kick off with your item :)
<jeffsch> ok
<mdke> agenda is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<mdke> jeffsch, do you want to go ahead and outline your proposal?
<jeffsch> C is locale for ANSI C programs
<jeffsch> doc processing tools don't always understand the C locale
<jeffsch> we should use the "en" locale as our default
<bustacap> I think the "C" locale extends beyond ANSI C programs..
<jeffsch> yeah, into GNOME docs
<bustacap> Solaris CDE uses "C" everywhere for it's desktop icons, etc..
<mdke> jeffsch, what are the advantages/disadvantages?
<bustacap> "C" is the old school version of default..
<Mithrandir> I'm semi-around, but not part of the docteam.  Tollef Fog Heen
<mdke> evening robotgeek, we're just on the first agenda item
* robotgeek is Venkat Raghavan
* Burgwork is Corey Burger
<jeffsch> advantage is having en for use in processing tools
<Mithrandir> C doesn't give you UTF8 support, for instance.
<jeffsch> xsltproc doesn't know C locale, but will use en as fallover
<mdke> don't our processing tools use en anyway?
<mdke> as fallback?
<jeffsch> other tools choke on C locale
<bustacap> is there a way to move to it all to "en" and symlink C -> en ?
<jeffsch> mdke: yeah, that's what those warnings are when building docs
<bustacap> that's the standard practice..
<bustacap> that should cover both basis..
<jeffsch> svn can't do symlinks, iirc
<bustacap> haha yeah..
<mdke> so the disadvantages?
<bustacap> I was talking about when it is installed..
<kjcole> Are there any advantages to "C" (assuming one has control over the whole universe of docs -- i.e. not worrying about what Solaris or anyone else does)?
<Mithrandir> kjcole: it's a fallback which any language will fall back to if their normal language/locale isn't available.
<mdke> if we move to en, do we lose that fallback?
<jeffsch> a C program uses the C locale until it calls setlocale()
<jeffsch> mdke: no
<mdke> ok, so any disadvantages you know?
<jeffsch> yeah, the transition from one to the other
<mdke> shoot
<mdke> what does it take?
<jeffsch> mostly just changing C to en everywhere it occurs
<Mithrandir> it seems slightly unclear to me what exactly do you mean by moving from C to en.  Do you mean changing the default language code of the English documentation from C to en or something else?
<jeffsch> including in the omf files
<Mithrandir> (like, changing the LANG setting in the build environment)
<jeffsch> Mithrandir: changing <book lang="C">
<jeffsch> to <book lang="en">
<Mithrandir> so the former, then.
<jeffsch> yeah
<robotgeek> a bash script can do that?
<mdke> and the place the docs are installed would have to change too?
<jeffsch> yeah, anything in a C folder would be in an en folder
<Mithrandir> you'd have to make sure that "en" would be fallen back to if localised docs weren't available.
<bustacap> what are the processing tools that are disadvantaged by the current setup?
<jeffsch> xsltproc shows a warning that it does not understand C, and is using en instead
<jeffsch> the last time i used java tools, (about a year ago) they choked on C locale
<LaserJock> I have <!ENTITY language "en"> and <book lang="&language;"> in the packaging guide. Is that not C then? 
<jeffsch> &language resolves to C in global.ent
<LaserJock> so why is <!ENTITY language "en"> there?
<jeffsch> dunno
<LaserJock> I just stole it from the server guide I think
<mdke> jeffsch, how long do you estimate the transition would take, and do you envisage doing it before dapper?
<jeffsch> it took me about an hour to test it on desktop guide and server guide on my wc
<jeffsch> included changing and building, and fixing places i forgot
<mdke> did you build a package and test?
<jeffsch> no
<mdke> would there be likely to be any problems?
<jeffsch> scrollkeeper omf files would need to be changed
<mdke> yes, and debian/install
<mdke> Mithrandir, any idea if this would produce bugs? can we go ahead and do it safely pre-dapper you think?
<mdke> dholbach, your opinion too would be awesome, if you are around
<jeffsch> it should be similar to adding anyother locale such as fr
<Mithrandir> mdke: I don't know scrollkeeper well enough.  Try it on a localised install and see what blows up?
<mdke> ok
<mdke> for me, it sounds fine, if jeffsch can test it a little bit and commit, no problems here
<bustacap> the "C" fallback should be the main thing to test
<mdke> yeah
<jeffsch> ok, i'll commit some stuff in the next day or so... i'll keep the images in the C folder though to keep the bandwith impact lower
<mdke> svn mv shouldn't impact on bandwidth i don't think
<mdke> jeffsch, could you try a package before committing?
<jeffsch> i was thinking having the two side by side for testing
<mdke> ah
<jeffsch> i would have to learn packaging, so it would take another day or so, if i find the time 
<Mithrandir> if you move stuff, move it properly and don't care about bandwidth impact.
<jeffsch> ok
<mdke> jeffsch, just look in debian/install and change the values, it's pretty obvious
<Mithrandir> this might need to be fixed by somebody who comes along in a year or two and the bandwidth you save today will then just cause headaches then.
<jeffsch> yeah
<mdke> ok cool
<mdke> any more on this item?
<jeffsch> nope. i'll test and commit and see what happens
<mdke> great
<mdke> next item is the rearranging of the desktopguide meeting
<jeffsch> hopefully by monday
<mdke> i was hoping for a meeting on the desktopguide by those who are likely to contribute
<mdke> Madpilot isn't here right now
<mdke> perhaps we can coordinate a quick meeting via the mailing list?
<bustacap> I am looking at filling in a few of the TODO sections..
<robotgeek> does it count for the Kubuntu too, right?
<mdke> robotgeek, sure
<robotgeek> oaky, if the rest of the ppl aren't here, it may be best to do this by mailing list/launchpad poll
<bustacap> yep
<mdke> last item then, I think
<robotgeek> scratch the poll, it's only going to be 5 ppl or so :)
<mdke> over to you bustacap 
<bustacap> mdke, I am not too sure if there are many UDSF folk in the room..
<robotgeek> manicka ping
<bustacap> it was a little short notice..
<mdke> was there something you wanted to raise anyhow?
<bustacap> yeah sure..
<bustacap> at the 'next' meeting, we talk with some senior members of UDSF and talk about getting new help documents included into the offical docs rather than being posted in the forums..
<bustacap> new HowTo can be originally created into the Wiki
<bustacap> and new FAQs could be inserted into the starter guide..
<bustacap> the HowTos should be the easier of the two..
<bustacap> leaving the forum as a pure helpdesk service
<bustacap> which it is good at
<mdke> ok that is quite a complicated discussion. You'll need to include the forum administrators
<bustacap> yeah..
<bustacap> most of the UDSF team are the forum admins, but yes we do need them as well..
<LaserJock> do the UDSF guys want to do that?
<mdke> bustacap, no the admins are different
<bustacap> LaserJock, they are all for copying existing docs into the wiki (or somebody else copying)
<bustacap> but I am talking about new docs..
<bustacap> the existing docs would take a long time..
<mdke> LaserJock, i think it will be a long road. The first road is trying to convince the wiki and UDSF to merge, let alone get them to scrap the howto section in the forum
<mdke> but it would be great to have the wiki and forums complementing each other
<LaserJock> that's what I'm talking about. I didn't get the impression that they were closing the UDSF or anything
<mdke> no, indeed
<bustacap> the wiki is already filled with great info, I feel that there could be already great amounts of unneccessary duplication
<Burgwork> USDF is mostly a lost cause
<LaserJock> It sounded more like the doc team was welcome to take there info
<Burgwork> we need to publicize the wiki more
<bustacap> I agree on the need to promote the wiki much more in the forums
<robotgeek> +1 
<bustacap> that's where my main point is stemming from - there is very little mention of the wikis in forum posts from the "helpdesk teams"
<bustacap> the guys who answer the most questions..
<robotgeek> bustacap: i think azz on the forums mentioned that
<mdke> there is a "how to post to the wiki" guide as a sticky in the howto section
<bustacap> FYI, an invite was sent out to have the UDSF guys in attendance for this meeting..
<Burgwork> I spoke to them extensively after the last CC meeting
<bustacap> what was the outcome Burgwork?
<Burgwork> we agreed to disagree about goals and left it at that
<kjcole> I haven't spent much time in the forums.  Any sense of the audience percentage that understands the "living" nature of the wikis?
<Burgwork> kjcole, most are probably not even aware of the wiki
<mdke> bustacap, there is a bug link at the top
<mdke> bug/big
<kjcole> Burgwork, I meant the concept, not any specific wiki.
<mdke> bustacap/burgwork
<Burgwork> mdke, links to not make awareness
<mdke> Burgwork, no, unless people click. But sometimes they do
<Burgwork> kjcole, first they have to aware it exists, and then we can start thinking about having them  edit it
<bustacap> I spoke to manicka at length last night as well Burgwork, but I think there needs to be a set meeting with fair numbers of the ubuntu-doc team, the forum admins and the UDSF team instead of 1-on-3 conversations..
<rob> sorry, what is UDSF?
<mdke> bustacap, ok you can take the lead on organising it
<mdke> rob, the gwos wiki
<rob> ah 
* rob reserves comment
<bustacap> mdke, yes, they have a wiki link to make the forums blend in with the rest of the official ubuntu pages..
<kjcole> The few topics that I've looked at in the forum often end up being umpteen screens worth of corrections and updates to "good" answers (along with lots of little "Thank you. It worked." responses.)
<kjcole> They'd really benefit from being wiki'd.
<bustacap> kjcole, I like seeing 'thank you' and 'it worked' in forums when I am searching for a solution
<bustacap> yes, wikis for documentation - forums for help
<mdke> i like those wiki pages that say "discuss this guide [forumlink here] "
<bustacap> mdke ++
<kjcole> bustacap, yeah, it's nice.  I wasn't saying get rid of that.
<bustacap> that should be used more often in the more important wiki pages
<bustacap> I will look at trying to organise a meeting between the three interested parties in the near future..
<mdke> ok to draw some conclusions, bustacap, you're going to organise a meeting?
<mdke> cool
<bustacap> I don't know who to contact for the forum administrators
<mdke> bustacap, you can find them on the forum
<bustacap> I mean the active senior admins..
<mdke> there is a list
<robotgeek> could we have a wiki article discussion section on the forums?
<bustacap> "View Forum Leaders"
<mdke> some kinda of automatic thing would be nice, in the future
<bustacap> hah, must have missed that link last night..
<Burgwork> I worry about splitting the forums up too much
<LaserJock> one thing that somewhat bugs me (and maybe it's understandable) is that some of the forum admin/mods put UDSF in there signatures but not the Ubuntu wiki
<LaserJock> I just seems to me that there isn't that much support for the Ubuntu wiki from within the forums and I don't understand why
<robotgeek> LaserJock: the explanation to that apparently is that they know the answer on UDSF, but not in the Ubuntu wiki
<LaserJock> robotgeek: but those are just general advertisements basically
<mdke> there are some social barriers that we can eventually hope to break down
<bustacap> Burgwork, what do you mean by splitting up?
<Burgwork> bustacap, having many small forums is bad and balkanizes where people look for help
<mdke> yeah, a "wiki article" section wouldn't work I don't think
<bustacap> yes, there seems to be a breakaway from the official community, which is bad, we don't want to become another RedHat..
<Burgwork> there are a number of issues with the forums divide and this is just one manifestation
<mdke> absolutely
<bustacap> sure
<mdke> I don't think we can solve it, but meetings can't hurt
* Burgwork is busy working through another with the CC
<bustacap> yes, mdke, just making some progress and airing any issues with all major players present together in the same room should be a good start
<robotgeek> we don't really need a section, i guess. Wiki:WikiWord or something referencing back to the wiki would work
<mdke> ok, I'm off to bed now
<bustacap> sweet, thanks mdke 
<robotgeek> later mdke 
<mdke> before I go, Burgwork and me and henrik have worked on the BetterWikiDocs spec, please feel free to have a look and comment
<robotgeek> it is very nice, aesthetically :)
<mdke> ok -> bed
<robotgeek> alrite, later all
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-02-02
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas, ping
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:robitaille] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Jan  20:00 UTC:  Technical Board | 1 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 2 Feb 10:00 UTC:  Dapper Development Status | 2 Feb 23:00 UTC: Artwork Team | 3 Feb 21:00 UTC:  Joint UDSF/Forums/DocTeam Meeting | 7 Feb 12:00 UTC: Community Council
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-02-03
<cyphase> brb
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-02-05
<Ubuntuser_Ba> Seveas, ping
<Seveas> yes?
<Ubuntuser_Ba> pvt..
<Keybuk> ok,
<Keybuk> mjg59: ping
<Keybuk> mdz has sent apologies, he's at the theatre tonight
<Keybuk> sabdfl is in asia, and I would be fired for making any implications about thai ladyboys
<Keybuk> uh ^L^L^L
<Keybuk> :D
<sivang> Keybuk: hehe
<Keybuk> hmm, no response from mjg59 ... will give him a few minutes
<mjg59> Hi
<Keybuk> aha
<Keybuk> right
* sivang this TB meeting is starting slow :)
<Keybuk> mjg59: got a whiskey ready?
<mjg59> Not as yet
<mjg59> I'll find one if it becomes necessary
<Keybuk> I have a beer, which I'm already part the way through
<Keybuk> so this should be a nice ride
<Keybuk> so let's get this show on the rode
<Keybuk> Core Developer Candidates
<Keybuk> jjmmma ?
<Keybuk> dsaa ?
<Keybuk> Kinnison ?
<Keybuk> debankur ?
<Keybuk> none of those have applied for membership or motu, so will be rejected
<Keybuk> Kinnison: ah, just in time... you need to apply for ubuntu-members and ubuntu-dev before you can apply for ubuntu-core-dev
<Kinnison> Right
<Stormx2> Hey! A meeting :P I'll just watch.
<Kinnison> so I need to do the wiki etc?
<Keybuk> right
<Kinnison> Okay, I'll do that next week
* Kinnison goes back to soyuz
<Keybuk> ubuntu-members are considered by the Community Council
<fabbione> *cough*
<Keybuk> so you'll need to go before them
<Kinnison> thanks for the official info
<Kinnison> Keybuk: aye, thanks
<lucas> (next CC meeting is next tuesday)
* Kinnison nods lucas 
<Keybuk> Kinnison: I'll leave your application in the list though, rather than reject, seeing as you actually showed up :)
<Kamion> work with MOTU is usually considered favourably by the CC, by the way
<Kamion> although we know you anyway, which obviously helps :)
<fabbione> Kinnison FOR PRESIDENT!
* sivang hugs Kinnison 
<Keybuk> ok, Ubuntu Developers
<mjg59> Daniel has plenty of code already in the archive, and he's worked well with existing members, so...
<Keybuk> lmanul ?
<Kinnison> Keybuk: sorry, I was working on some soyuz code and lost track of time
<Kamion> mjg59: yeah
<Keybuk> freeflying ?
<sivang> mjg59: lol
<Keybuk> batt ?
<Keybuk> anyone know Ivailo Ivanov ?
<dholbach> lmanul is in #ubuntu-desktop - I called him.
<mjg59> dholbach: Thanks
<Keybuk> let's give him a few seconds
<Riddell> freeflying not on IRC, didn't discuss applying for membership with me as I remember
<sivang> ah, tb is approving membership now as well?
<Keybuk> no, cc does that
<sivang> ah , ok
<Keybuk> ok, let's carry on
<Riddell> memership to ubuntu-dev team I ment
<Keybuk> if lmanul comes in, we can deal with him then
<Keybuk> Riddell: you're up
<mjg59> "deal with"
<mjg59> Sounds ominous
<Riddell> Keybuk: this wasat the MOTU meeting and they referred it here
<Keybuk> ok, please take the floor; it's your agenda item
<Riddell> if a program is "GPL two or later" do we put a link in debian/copyright to the GPL symlink or the GPL-2 files
<mjg59> Ha
<Keybuk> my immediate hunch is that Debian will deal with this far better than we will
<Keybuk> and that they're more paranoid about such things
<Riddell> policy didn't have anything much to say
<mjg59> Yeah, this is something that's going to have to be dealt with in Debian
<mjg59> It's not a problem we've really had before
<Keybuk> I don't think we should do anything different to them
<Riddell> I think MOTU just want something consitent
<Keybuk> we can certainly talk with them, but I think whatever they decide goes
<mjg59> Since GPL3 doesn't exist yet, leaving it pointing at GPL2 now isn't an issue
<Keybuk> Riddell: do you want to lead the dialogue with appropriate Debian people?
<Riddell> Keybuk: I'd have no idea who they were
<Keybuk> debian-policy might be a start
<mjg59> lmanul: Hi - we've just jumped ahead to the next agenda item, we'll come back to you in a minute
<Riddell> could do
<mjg59> Sure. I'd recommend discussing it in Debian for now, and then us (and all the other derivatives) following suit
<Keybuk> also debian-legal, as there may be implications, etc.
<Keybuk> mjg59: I agree
<Riddell> ok, I'll do that
<mjg59> Riddell: Ok, cool
<Keybuk> cool, lmanul welcome!  you've applied to join the MOTU?
<lmanul> Huh... I'm a bit surprised actually
<Keybuk> oh?
<dholbach> :-)
<tseng> i think i twas a dholbach recruiting scheme
<lmanul> dholbach: told me there was something going on here so I came in
<Keybuk> you clicked the "join the ubuntu-dev team" button in Launchpad
<dholbach> tseng: hahaha, lmanul just became member for his rocking work on the dekstop theme
<dholbach> s/theme/team
<lmanul> Woops
<lmanul> Did I made one extra click ? :-p
<Keybuk> lmanul: would you like to be considered for joining the team? :)
<lmanul> make
<lmanul> The MOTU Team ?
<Keybuk> indeed
<lmanul> Well, sure
<tseng> Keybuk: i havent seen any packaging experience from him to justify MOTUness
<lmanul> But, huh...
<sivang> wh wouldn't ? :)
<Keybuk> have you worked much with them yet?
<lmanul> I've never packaged anything :)
<Keybuk> certainly your UI work is familar to us all
<lmanul> Thanks :)
<Keybuk> ok, I suggest your next step if you wish to take it is to work with the MOTU on packaging work, using their REVU system and sponsored uploads
<lmanul> I'm not sure I have what it takes to become a MOTU... Do I ?
<lucas> lmanul: are you actually interested in joining MOTU ?
<lucas> (you are not forced too ;)
<lmanul> lucas Sure, I am interested
<lmanul> But I don't remember adding myself to any wiki list
<Keybuk> ok, then I suggest chatting to dholbach and ogra, etc.
<lmanul> Not sure I'm ready for that :)
<lucas> lmanul: it was on launchpad
<lmanul> All right
<Keybuk> lmanul: we use Launchpad to track applications; you must have clicked the "Join this team" button on the ubuntu-dev page
<Keybuk> that proposed you and added you to the agenda for this meeting :)
<ogra> lmanul, would be cool if you could direcly work on the packages with your patches ;) 
<lmanul> Keybuk: That's possible, I didn't know ubuntu-dev = MOTU :)
<lmanul> ogra: Sure !
<ogra> but i think a bit training is required ;)
<Keybuk> ok, we'll leave him in your delicate hands then
<lmanul> Ok, so I guess I'll get some packaging experience and come back after that ? :)
<ogra> :)
<ogra> yup
<lmanul> Sorry for disturbing the meeting :p
<Keybuk> no worries
<mjg59> lmanul: No problem :)
<Keybuk> Riddell: you again by the looks of it
<Riddell> yo
<Keybuk> xine vs. gstreamer?
<Riddell> this was whether kubuntu dapper should ship with xine or gstreamer
<Riddell> breezy used gstreamer 0.8
<Keybuk> what do you think?
<mjg59> To be honest, I'm not entirely sure that Ubuntu should ship with gstreamer as the default video framework this time around...
<Riddell> but 0.8 is obsolete and amarok/kaffeine are not yet ported to gstreamer 0.10
<ogra> dapper uses gstreamer0.10
<ogra> so we'd have to support both for 3 years
<Riddell> shipping kubuntu dapper with an obsolete gstreamer for 3 years support isn't good
<ogra> yup
<dholbach> It'd be good if we had Test data on either of them.
<ogra> is xine a sane option to use instead ? 
<Keybuk> my experience with xine is that it's not really any better than gstreamer until you add the non-free stuff and windows dlls
<Riddell> other option is me porting kaffeine to gstreamer 0.10 (possible but will probably take lots of time) and hoping amarok gets ported in time
<mjg59> Keybuk: gstreamer0.10 can't currently have those added
<tseng> Keybuk: compared to gst 0.10, I agree
<Riddell> and we have I believe a shippable xine in main now
<mjg59> There isn't even an asf demuxer
<ogra> Riddell, sounds not like it could be done before feature freeze
<Keybuk> Riddell: xine is in universe right now
<Riddell> ogra: quite probably not
<mjg59> Keybuk: libxine1 is in main
<Keybuk> so there are security and support implications
<Keybuk> ah libxine-main1
<mjg59> Yeah
<Keybuk> sorry, I missed that
<Riddell> libxine-dev is main
<Riddell> and hoary has xine
<Keybuk> my initial gut would be to try and keep one sound/video framework through all of the derivatives if possible
<mjg59> Riddell: Personally, I think you should make the decision based on functionality and achievability. Right now we're looking at supporting libxine and gstreamer for dapper, and nobody seems to be pushing for xine to be dropped.
<Riddell> Keybuk: yep, that's why I changed to gstreamer for breezy
<mjg59> Riddell: gst0.8 is obviously not an option
<Riddell> it seems like a step backwards to go back to xine
<Riddell> but practicalities get in the way
<mjg59> Keeping gst0.8 would mean supporting 3 media frameworks
<mjg59> And 0.8 is pretty much dead upstream
<Amaranth> mjg59: completely dead
<mjg59> Amaranth: Not entirely. Ronald has discussed providing some basic level of support.
<Amaranth> mjg59: i thought he was just going to get one last release out
<lucas> if we chose xine, there's not much work to do. What about trying to use gst 0.10 for 2 weeks and decide during the next TB meeting ? we could always switch back to xine by then.
<ogra> lucas, feature freeze is near 
<Riddell> lucas: can't use gstreamer 0.10 for two weeks, the programs just are not ported
<ogra> lucas, Riddell already said it takes to long
<sivang> ogra: 23 feb right?
<lucas> I meant: try to work with upstream to get it ported in time ;)
<Riddell> amarok may be out by the end of feb, kaffeine it seems like I'd have to do myself, and i'm no expert in the area
<ogra> sivang, i cant tell from the top of my head
<ogra> sivang, but around this date ...
<mjg59> Riddell: Realistically, if gst0.10 isn't an option, then go with xine.
<ogra> (release schedule will tell you ;) )
<lucas> 23rd
<lucas> https://launchpad.net/people/bg+
<dholbach> Most of the GNOME stuff already uses gstreamer internally - and that's not only rhythmbox and totem, it's gnome-media, gnome-applets, sound-juicer, ...
<lucas> rah
<lucas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<tseng> to be clear are we talking about gst 0.10 for gnome and xine for kde?
<mjg59> Riddell: There's no point in shipping a crippled desktop for the sake of consistency
<mjg59> tseng: Yes
<tseng> or xine everywhere
<Keybuk> tseng: just considering kde at this point
<mjg59> The former. I don't think anyone's discussed migrating gnome.
<tseng> mjg59: thanks.
<ogra> tseng, OMG
<Riddell> mjg59: I think that's what I'm hoping someone would tell me
<Riddell> it's disappointing to go back to xine in various ways but if that's what has to be done then it's the best thing
<mjg59> Riddell: The other options are all worse
<mjg59> I think this sort of thing is going to be an inevitable consequence of our release timing not being very in line with KDE's
<dholbach> How much work would xine as "Plan B" be?
<Riddell> dholbach: what would plan A be then?
<ogra> heh
<dholbach> Porting to gst0.10?
<mjg59> dholbach: If the porting hasn't started, it's entirely unrealistic
<ogra> dholbach, i think its rather the other way around 
<mjg59> There's significant differences in the API
<Amaranth> dholbach: that'd be porting two large applications in less than a month
* dholbach didn't check the API.
<Riddell> it's quite a change
<lucas> is sbody familiar with the work to do ?
<Riddell> lucas: there's a document for how to do it, but it's not trivial
<mjg59> lucas: It is not realistic to do the ports in the time available
<mjg59> Not if we want adequate testing
<lucas> okay
<Amaranth> yeah, shipping a broken amarok would not be good
<Riddell> so if xine isn't a problem to ship I think we'll go with that, and look at gstreamer 0.10 for dapper + 1
<lucas> so there's no choice, really :-)
<Amaranth> not really, no
<mjg59> Riddell: I think that's the only realistic option. Does anyone disagree?
<Riddell> sorted, thanks all
<Keybuk> I agree
<mjg59> Ok. Next item?
<Keybuk> next is lucas
<lucas> Repository of old source packages
<lucas> I summarized the issue on the Agenda
<lucas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
<Keybuk> ok, basically this is to solve the issue where MoM sometimes doesn't have the Debian base version to hand when doing a merge ?
<lucas> yup
<Keybuk> it's probably worth stating at this point that it's not an easy problem
<lucas> I'm not sure I understand where the problems are: it doesn't seem that difficult to me
<Keybuk> you need to keep a copy of every source package since the Debian base as well
<Keybuk> because you can't predict what the next Debian base version will be
<Amaranth> i thought this is what the morgue was for
<Keybuk> and the simple fact is it's hard to get every source package from Debian
<ogra> Amaranth, yes
<Keybuk> some of them are simply missing
<ogra> Amaranth, but the morgue ran out of space once ...
<sistpoty> Keybuk: is anything like this planned for LP?
<Amaranth> ogra: and now is completely dead, afaics
<lucas> Keybuk: how can source packages be missing from debian ?
<Keybuk> lucas: because the maintainer uploads -1
<Keybuk> then the next day uploads -2, -3, -4 and -5
<Kamion> ogra: different morgue
<Keybuk> only -5 will be published in the Debian FTP sites
<Kamion> it's the Debian morgue that matters here
<ogra> Kamion, ah
<Keybuk> -2, -3 and -4 will be missing
<lucas> ah, yes
<Amaranth> Keybuk: but we'd only end up using -1 or -5, right?
<Keybuk> Amaranth: that should be true, but it sometimes isn't
<lucas> but I see the system as : copy everything + expire what we no longer need
<Kamion> Amaranth: not necessarily, especially if the Debian and Ubuntu maintainers are the same
<Kamion> or if the Ubuntu maintainer pulls from incoming
<Keybuk> and the simple fact is we already do this
<Amaranth> hrm
<Keybuk> and actually do it in such a way that -2, -3 and -4 *are* available to us too
<Keybuk> and we still miss some sometimes
<lucas> having you investigated the reasons for this ?
<lucas> It seems that we miss a lot of them
<Keybuk> not fully
<Keybuk> it's not really something I've had time for
<Keybuk> we tend to fix mom at the start of each distro cycle
<Keybuk> and by the end it's not working well
<Kamion> perhaps time investigating why would be better spent than time duplicating the existing system ...
<Kamion> (to lucas)
<Keybuk> we used to use snapshot.debian.net as an archive of old debian packages
<Keybuk> but that crashed
<lucas> ok, but then, how can I help investigating this ? :)
<Keybuk> so we've since used a morgue published by the Debian FTP masters
<Keybuk> lucas: pick a package for which it picked an older version that it should, and try to find out when that version was published, and whether it was mirrored to Debian's mirrors, etc.
<lucas> Keybuk: is MoM's source available somewhere ?
<Keybuk> no, MoM is not open source
<Keybuk> mostly because it's very crap code
<Keybuk> and totally unfit for release to the world
* Kamion tries to remember enough about the innards of katie to remember whether packages that are superseded while still in the accepted queue end up in the morgue
<Kamion> I'm sure they should ...
<lucas> Keybuk: could I have a copy of the code then ? so I could understand the inner workings better
<Keybuk> lucas: I'd have to talk to Mark about it, you may have to sign an NDA, etc.
<Keybuk> it's not that clever, it just downloads the packages and diffs them
<Keybuk> it's almost certainly not a mom bug
<Keybuk> but a problem at Debian's end
<lucas> opensourcing MoM would be great to enhance collaboration with debian
<lucas> since it would help make it more useful for debian maintainers too
<lucas> (is MoM in charge of generating "scott's patches" too ?
<Keybuk> no, a program called NDA does that
<Keybuk> tbh
<Keybuk> looking at the problem right now
<Keybuk> it's simply that Debian's morgue has run out of disk space again
<lucas> ok
<Kamion> /dev/cciss/c0d0p7    690834712 689351076   1483636 100% /org
<Keybuk> they only have up to 2005-11-07 published
<Keybuk> :p
<Kamion> so it has
<Keybuk> there we go then
<lucas> so, back to my initial proposal, it might still be a good idea to have our own morgue
<Keybuk> I'll make it a personal task to go speak to the Debian FTP master and arrange for another go
<Kamion> when does snapshot.d.n date back to?
<Keybuk> Kamion: dunno, I got bored of trying to find out because it still claims to have the files and just 404s them
<Keybuk> obviously this is all kinda moot since merge-fest is now over until the feisty cycle
<lucas> because doing MOTU work when you don't have the base version really is a PITA
<Kamion> it claims 2005/03/13
<Kamion> do mom/nda try snapshot.debian.net to see if it works?
<Keybuk> Kamion: no, not currently, because Python's urllib doesn't handle 404s :)
<Kamion> fixing that might help a lot
<Amaranth> urllib2?
<Keybuk> Amaranth: that was more complicated and less well documented <g>
<Amaranth> Keybuk: sure, but urllib is also mostly dead
<lucas> using snapshot.d.n or the ftpmaster's morgue doesn't seem like a solution on the long term to me ...
<Kamion> seems like a perfectly good solution to me, actually
<Kamion> I mean, AIUI, we're basically rsyncing the Debian morgue locally, aren't we?
<Keybuk> mjg59: ?
<Keybuk> Kamion: pretty much, yes
<lucas> well, if it runs out of space regularly without use noticing
<lucas> there's no point in using it
<Kamion> there's no difference between that and "keeping our own morgue", other than acquisition method
<Amaranth> perhaps i way of marking ubuntu changes in the package itself could work?
<Kamion> once != regularly
<Amaranth> so you wouldn't need the original
<lucas> two times already
<Kamion> the last time MOM failed it was because snapshot.d.n broke
<Kamion> AIUI
<mjg59> I'm afraid I don't know enough about MOM to have strong opinions on this
<Keybuk> Amaranth: that would require a new source format, etc.
<Kamion> using two different sources should be adequate redundancy, if Keybuk fixes the inability to handle 404s
<Keybuk> mjg59: big evil hacky python script, downloads three versions, mashes them together with diff and patch to make a fourth
<Kamion> well, two plus the various others that are already tried
<mjg59> Keybuk: Yeah
<Keybuk> it's nowhere near as clever or useful as everyone thinks it is
<Amaranth> three versions?
<Keybuk> Amaranth: Current Ubuntu, Current Debian, Common Base
<Amaranth> oh, new debian, ubuntu, original debian
<lucas> Keybuk: couldn't you talk with mark about opensourcing MoM and NDA ?
<lucas> so other people could work on improving them
<Keybuk> lucas: it's not so much a Mark issue, it's a me issue
<Keybuk> I seriously don't believe the code is any kind of fit state to release
<lucas> I didn't talk about release
<Keybuk> releasing implies support
<lucas> just put it in bzr somewhere
<Keybuk> it implies accepting patches
<ajmitch> it implies people asking 'wtf?' about parts of the code
<sistpoty> imo having MoM reports at hand is a nice addon but not absolutely necessary to do merges; but I guess that many other MOTU's think different about that.
<lucas> so it's better to have a not-so-good MoM ?
<sivang> Keybuk: maybe this could be rewritten from scratch ? ;-)
<Keybuk> lucas: I don't really see how it's useful to anyone either, tbh
<Keybuk> it's full of very Ubuntu-specific coe
<Keybuk> like filing bugs in Malone
<Keybuk> sivang: it's been "to be replaced by something in Launchpad" for a while now
<lucas> I've heard quite a lot of comments about nda's output not being considered very helpful by debian maintainers
<sivang> Keybuk: ah, I see. I guess this should come rather quick then not now Soyuz is pushed to landing.
<Keybuk> lucas: nobody's ever made them to me
<lucas> (like: it doesn't list source packages by maintainer)
<Kamion> clearly the output of any automated tool is going to be less useful than people reporting bugs with patches manually
<Kamion> although, yes, source packages by maintainer would be useful to me even :)
<Keybuk> lucas: no, but it provides something for Debian to write their own page like that
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/patches/PATCHES
<Keybuk> ^ was added at Debian's request so they could build systems around "the current Ubuntu patch set"
<Keybuk> the Debian PTS uses it, for example
<Keybuk> it's far easier for Debian to write things to their taste than to file bugs, and have us do it when we have time
<lucas> my point is not about debian collaboration. It's about nda/mom not being as good as they could be.
<Keybuk> they do the job well enough
<Keybuk> everything could be better
<Keybuk> but at some point you have to stop polishing and move on
<lucas> ok
<lucas> I'm not really satisfied, but I think we can move to next point
<lucas> since nothing else is going to get out of this one
<Keybuk> I'll happily take suggestions for improvement via e-mail, if they're good ideas
<Keybuk> but yes
<Keybuk> let's move on
<Keybuk> any other business?
<Keybuk> ok then
<Keybuk> see you all in two weeks, everyone
<dholbach> see you Keybuk :-)
* dholbach hugs Keybuk.
<ogra> Keybuk, thanks for running the meeting :)
<lucas> for those still around: there are 1401 reports generated by MoM
<lucas> in 477 of them, the correct base version could not be used
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-29
<Hobbsee> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Feb 12:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 31 Jan 07:00: Technical Board | 01 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 01 Feb 09:00: Xubuntu | 02 Feb 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Feb 23:00: Edubuntu | 09 Feb 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<lfittl> @schedule Vienna
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Vienna: 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<gnomefreak> @schedule new_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 30 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team
<ryanakca> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00: Mozilla Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-30
<Hobbsee> @schedule est
<Ubugtu> Schedule for EST: 30 Jan 15:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 18:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 15:00: Mozilla Team
<pochu> @now madrid
<Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Madrid: January 30 2007, 13:19:23 - Next meeting: Technical Board in 7 hours 40 minutes
<pochu> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 30 Jan 20:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00: Mozilla Team
<Amaranth> @schedule Chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 30 Jan 14:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 14:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 14:00: Mozilla Team
<somerville32> @schedule atlantic
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Canada/Atlantic: 30 Jan 16:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 16:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 18:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 19:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 16:00: Mozilla Team
<Ma1kel> @schedule amsterdam
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 30 Jan 21:00: Technical Board | 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 00:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 21:00: Mozilla Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team
<Ma1kel> In AD 2007
<Ma1kel> The Technical board meeting was beginning
<Keybuk> don't hold your breath ... mdz just ping timeout'd :p
<Ma1kel> Main discussion turn on
<Ma1kel> How are you gentlemen?
<Keybuk> mjg59 will not be joining us today; he's got a PhD to procrastinate over
<ajmitch> there's actually one scheduled for today?
<Keybuk> I thought mdz was joining us, he was in a conf-call with me not an hour ago, but he's just vanished
* ajmitch looks for dholbach 
<Keybuk> trying to find out whether it's temporary, or whether he's gone for dinner and forgotten
<dholbach> ajmitch: I'm here
<ajmitch> dholbach: yay!
<Ma1kel> [20:50:16]  * Ubugtu changes topic to 'Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team'
<Seveas> Ma1kel, we know that...
<ajmitch> ubugtu & reality don't always match
<Seveas> heh
<Ma1kel> The system can't be wrong.
<Keybuk> ok, let's get going
<mdz_> good evening
<Keybuk> First up: core-de
<Keybuk> v
<Keybuk> I don't have anyone on my list for that
<Keybuk> is there anyone here who's applied for core-dev, and thinks they should be on that list?
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> next up: ubuntu-dev
<Adri2000> yep :)
<Keybuk> on my list, I have metres, mlind, Praveen Kumar, EtienneG, prash, TheMuso & Adri2000
<tepsipakki> me too
* TheMuso is here.
* mvo is here to advocate for etienneg
<Keybuk> is EtienneG here?
<EtienneG> Keybuk, yep !
<tepsipakki> previous meeting was cancelled so my application perhaps got dropped
<Keybuk> you're first in date order; so introduce yourself
<EtienneG> excellent
<EtienneG> I am support analyst in the Mtl office
<sabdfl> evening all
<EtienneG> Launchpad packaging page : https://launchpad.net/~etienne-goyer-outlands/+packages
<Keybuk> you package bzr?
<EtienneG> I am also responsible for bzr package on http://bazaar-vcs.org/releases/packages
<mdz_> EtienneG: in addition, I understand you've been doing some packaging for the commercial repository, which is maintained outside of launchpad
<EtienneG> Keybuk, yep, i took this over from jbailey
<EtienneG> mdz, indeed
<EtienneG> latest package there have been SugarCRM
<sabdfl> have you worked with any MOTU?
<EtienneG> I also package a few Canonical-internal things
<EtienneG> sabdfl, not yet unfortunately
<sabdfl> i think that's important to join ubuntu-dev
<EtienneG> I had the chance of getting all my package sponsored by jbailey and mvo
<sabdfl> i know that i knock on your door for things like bzr packaging but ubuntu-dev is all about motu
<mvo> EtienneG worked with me quite a bit and I'm very happy with the work he is doing
<mdz> EtienneG: have you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers ?
<EtienneG> mdz, yes
<EtienneG> mostly, i am looking for more autonomy in the maintenance of bzr-related package
<EtienneG> and to lessen the workload on my usual sponsors (mvo, jbailey)
<sabdfl> i have a suggestion
<EtienneG> I'm all ear
<sabdfl> if we approve the motu council today, then all you would need is two motu council folks to +1 you and you'd be in there
<sabdfl> that way you'd be known to them
<sabdfl> since you're joining their team
<EtienneG> sabdfl, sound perfectly good to me
<sabdfl> for my part, +1, you can quote me on that
<sabdfl> cool
<EtienneG> sabdfl, thanks !
<mdz> sabdfl++
* mvo hugs EtienneG
<sabdfl> ok, let's see if EtienneG can be the test case for the NewStreamlinedMotuProcess
<sabdfl> next up?
<EtienneG> excellent !
<dholbach> ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MotuProcessesSpec )
<mdz> EtienneG: I think it's especially important in your case, as a Canonical employee, that you become more involved with the community, since it's easy to work with other developers internally and not develop a good relationship with the developer community
<tepsipakki> would that apply for the rest ot the motuhopefuls
<tepsipakki> ?
<jbailey_> mdz: How does that affect upload rights for -commerical, though?
<mdz> jbailey_: upload rights for -commercial should be the same as -core-dev, since it's nearly equivalent to main in terms of its presentation to users
<sabdfl> -commercial isn't enabled by default, though?
<mdz> it's designated "supported" in the UI
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> tepsipakki: i don't mind dealing with prospectives now
<sabdfl> particularly wanted EtienneG to be in the loop with MOTU council
<tepsipakki> ok
<sabdfl> if you have a quick, clear cut case we can +1 you now
<sabdfl> otherwise, we'll defer to MOTU council
<EtienneG> sabdfl, mdz : this will certainly be
<sabdfl> ok?
<mdz> ok with me
<tepsipakki> cool, so I'm up next?
<Keybuk> ok with me too
<sabdfl> fire away
<mdz> deferring to the MOTU countil should be much more convenient than coming to a future TB meeting, according to the docs
<mdz> council, even
<sabdfl> candidates, if you could write up your three line intro, url's to wiki pages, packaging histories etc, that would make things go smoothly
<Keybuk> tepsipakki: you registered for ubuntu-dev almost 6 months ago; how come it's taken you so long to reach a TB meeting?
<sabdfl> (w.r.t. mdz's comment that's because you can approach any 2 of the council at any time, not scheduled meetings like this, iirc)
<mdz> (yes)
<tepsipakki> keybuk: I was here last time ;)
<tepsipakki> but you were not :)
<tepsipakki> so the meeting was cancelled
<ajmitch> I think at one point you didn't have enough contributions, right?
<tepsipakki> yes, that was in october
<mdz> tepsipakki: what have you been working on since then?
<tepsipakki> anyway, here's the wiki-page for the impatient: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimoAaltonen
<tepsipakki> there you can find links to the merges/syncs I've requested
<tepsipakki> (and other work, but thats what is new)
<tepsipakki> oops
<mdz> tepsipakki: it mentions that you've been testing automated netboot installations.  that's great, as those aren't tested as often as some other installation methods
<mdz> tepsipakki: how do you report your test results?
<tepsipakki> poke colin ;)
<tepsipakki> when the installer team was created, I joined shortly after
<mdz> tepsipakki: there is a wiki page which explains how to report results so that everyone can see them :-)
<tepsipakki> yeah, of course
<tepsipakki> I file bugs too
<tepsipakki> and sometimes even write patches to fix them
<tepsipakki> there are some that are on my list for feisty
<tepsipakki> which would make the installation a bit more robust
<sabdfl> cjwatson: any comment on interactions with timo?
<mdz> Colin is on a train somewhere, or on his way to one, unfortunately
<dholbach> tepsipakki did very well on looking at gnome-screensaver bugs - i got lots of mails :)
<tepsipakki> his comments are available if the logs of the cancelled meeting are somewhere
<sabdfl> +1 from me, lots of work across a variety of packages, and clearly interacting with the right folks in a sensible way
<tepsipakki> oh yes, g-s is a pet of mine (sometimes)
<sabdfl> tepsipakki: would you care to join the beta.launchpad.net group to take a peek?
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: what's that about?
<tepsipakki> oh, a test site?
<sabdfl> ;-)
<tepsipakki> sure, if I only could get in ;)
<tepsipakki> ah
<mdz> Jan 16 12:01:21 <cjwatson>      I can't be here for the TB meeting, but I'd like to express support for Timo Aaltonen; he's b
<mdz> een useful on d-i work in the past and has expressed interest in helping out with installer merge work
<tepsipakki> mdz: you beat me to it :)
<mdz> +1 based on positive feedback from dholbach and cjwatson
<Keybuk> +1 from me also
<tepsipakki> sabdfl: ooh, shiny!
<sabdfl> cool - welcome aboard, timo!
<tepsipakki> thanks!
<sabdfl> np
<tepsipakki> to all
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> next is TheMuso
<TheMuso> I am Luke Yelavich, a 24 year old job seeker from Sydney, Australia. I am a member of the Ubuntu accessibility team, and have been working with MOTU for over 12 months with merges, and some bug triaging, mostly accessibility related.
<TheMuso> wiki page: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukeYelavich
<TheMuso> Launchpad page: http://launchpad.net/people/themuso
<TheMuso> Packages: https://launchpad.net/~themuso/+packages
<LaserJock> *\o/*
<sistpoty> welcome tepsipakki
<sabdfl> yowser :-)
* heno would like to add that Luke has been a strong driving force in the accessibility team
<Keybuk> so, err, any questions for TheMuso ?
<dholbach> heno++
* dholbach hugs TheMuso and heno
<TheMuso> I believe crimsun emailed the TB about the work I have done with him.
<Keybuk> "It is my pleasure to endorse fully the application of Luke Yelavich for
<Keybuk> ubuntu-dev membership. For over one year, he has worked diligently in
<Keybuk> MOTU on packaging and bug triaging (mostly a11y-related) and has
<Keybuk> demonstrated positive interactions both in MOTU and with upstreams.
<Keybuk> Ubuntu has gained a valuable contributor in Luke, and I welcome him to
<Keybuk> the ubuntu-dev ranks."
<Keybuk> he did
<mdz> I'm familiar with TheMuso's accessibility work through henrik
* sistpoty cheers for TheMuso
<sabdfl> i've met luke in paris, iirc
<Amaranth> TheMuso: I thought you were already ubuntu-dev
<TheMuso> sabdfl: Briefly, but yes we did.
<sabdfl> +1 from me based on a long track record of work generally, and specifically for contributions to ally
<Keybuk> +1 from me also; Luke's contributions are well known to everyone, I think
<mdz> +1
<sabdfl> TheMuso: maybe you could tell us what your single biggest hope for ubuntu is in 2007?
<TheMuso> sabdfl: All I can say, si improving accessibility even further. There is still a long way to go, but every release we still manage to get something in that is new and useful.
<mdz> Keybuk: is anyone else from your list present?
<Keybuk> Adri2000 is
<Adri2000> I am :)
<Keybuk> Adri2000: please introduce yourself
<Adri2000> I'm Adrien Cunin, 16 years old french student.
<Adri2000> My work on universe/multiverse packages: bug fixes, merges/syncs, new upstream releases. Also some new packages, I now maintain two of them in Debian.
<Adri2000> All of that is described on my wiki page, so take a look at it ;)
<Adri2000> My plans as a MOTU: I will keep doing general motu stuff (bugs, merges, syncs, new upstream releases...), but also (more detailed on the wiki): collaboration with Debian (I already often file bugs in the Debian BTS), QA, help/sponsor/revu MOTU hopefuls/enthusiasts.
<Adri2000> Wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdrienCunin | LP: https://launchpad.net/~adri2000 | Packages: https://launchpad.net/~adri2000/+packages
* Lure applied when meeting started
<Adri2000> The main MOTUs I've worked with are gpocentek (he's here), crimsun (he sent an email to technical-board at lists.ubuntu.com) and also geser (I think he's here).
<Keybuk> "In the past several months, Adrien has worked diligently with MOTU in
<Keybuk> bug triaging, in merging and syncing Ubuntu universe source packages,
<Keybuk> and in helping community members who are not as well versed with Debian
<Keybuk> packaging on REVU. His dedication to assisting MOTU hopefuls, too, is
<Keybuk> noteworthy and illustrates the positive influence that anyone can have
<Keybuk> on the Ubuntu distribution. I welcome him as a ubuntu-dev member."
<sabdfl> well done TheMuso, your work is really important, and i hope you continue to draw a community around you to drive this forward
* gpocentek cheers for Adri2000 :)
<TheMuso> sabdfl: Thanks.
* sistpoty cheers for Adri2000 as well
<Mithrandir> FWIW, I've seen a fair amount of sync requests from Adri2000 which so far have been good.
<sabdfl> Keybuk: quoth?
<Keybuk> sabdfl: crimsun on tb mailing list about Adri2000
<gpocentek> he's done a great work on the packages I've reviewed/uploaded
<mdz> Adri2000: where did you learn Debian packaging?
<Adri2000> mdz: with gpocentek's lessons in #ubuntu-fr-classroom and then in #ubuntu-motu :)
* Toadstool sneaks in, waves and cheers for Adri2000 
<sabdfl> NO BUGS AT ALL?
<sabdfl> must be no users :-)
<sabdfl> you've touched a lot of packages, Adri2000, is there a theme to your work?
<mdz> gpocentek: can you be more specific about your experience?
<Adri2000> sabdfl: not really, I don't have any favourite kind of package
<mdz> gpocentek: what gives you the feeling that Adri2000 is ready to upload without review?
<gpocentek> mdz: well, all the packages I've reviewed were good, with no need to fix them
<Adri2000> sabdfl: just want to make universe even better :)
<gpocentek> mdz: he is also really helpful to others, and I think that's because he knows how to do things well
<mdz> Adri2000: how does homebank compare to gnucash?
<Adri2000> well, I packaged homebank and merged gnucash but I can't really say because I don't use them very often (just to test)
<mdz> Adri2000: really?  why would you want to maintain a package which is of no use to you?
<Adri2000> IIRC, I found homebank on MOTU/Packages/Candidates (requests from users) and the website was looking for packagers, so I emailed upstream and packaged it
<Adri2000> and I'm still in touch with upstream and still maintain it (bugs, new upstream releases), even if I don't use it daily
<mdz> interesting
<mdz> sabdfl: any further questions?
<sabdfl> i'm quite happy with what i've seen - lots of package work, and goot references from motu and -core-dev. +1 from me
<LaserJock> mdz: it's Universe, most of what we "maintain" we don't actually use
<mdz> +1 as well, thanks and good luck
<sabdfl> scott is away
<sabdfl> so let's take 2 as quorum
<sabdfl> welcome aboard!
<mdz> LaserJock: it's different when you're a designated maintainer for a package, its primary caregiver
<gpocentek> congrats Adri2000 :)
<Adri2000> thanks all!
<LaserJock> mdz: but we stress in Universe to not have a designated maintainer
<LaserJock> it's MOTU maintained
<mdz> that leaves metres, mlind, Praveen Kumar, prash from Keybuk's list
<Lure> mdz, sabdfl: I applied when meeting started, so not sure if I should wait next round (MOTU Conucil)
<sabdfl> lure, that's fine, join the end of the list
<sabdfl> metres?
<sabdfl> not here
<sabdfl> mlind not here
<sabdfl> praveen?
<sabdfl> not here
<mdz> LaserJock: indeed, we don't work exclusively, but to me it's surprising to package and devote special attention to a package one doesn't use at all
<dholbach> I mailed them all (not mlind, because I've seen him around and thought he's show up)
<sabdfl> prash - not here!
<sabdfl> that was quick :-)
<sabdfl> dholbach: i think this will all be easier with the new process
<dholbach> sabdfl: yeah
<mdz> Lure is here
<sabdfl> roll on Lure :-)
<Lure> Luka Renko, Kubuntu team member contributing for around a year, main interests
<Lure> are laptop and network support. Applying for MOTU to offload sponsors for
<Lure> some packages of my interest (eqonomize, soundkonverter, powersave, kpowersave).
<Lure> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LukaRenko  LP: https://launchpad.net/~lure/+packages
<mdz> Lure: who has been uploading your packages?
<Lure> I mainly work with Kubuntu team (Riddell, Tonio_, Hobbsee
<mdz> are any of them here?
<Lure> Some universe upload were done also by crimsun, geser, bddebian
<mdz> I've seen your name around, but I can't say that I'm familiar with your work
<Lure> mdz: my primary work is actually on main stuff for Kubuntu laptop/network support
<Lure> mdz: I was also on UDS-MTV
<Lure> mdz: I apply for motu, primarily to get my universe work directly
<sabdfl> Lure: how is the kubuntu community shaping up?
<Lure> sabdfl: I think better and better which each release
<mdz> Lure: I see, thanks
<mdz> Lure: though I don't have any direct experience of your work
<Lure> sabdfl: we have some coders now for bug squasing and 3-4 active core-devs
<Lure> sabdfl: I can say each release we get quite some new names on board
<mdz> Lure: it's best if the people you've worked with can tell the board about their experience working with you, as we can't know everything directly
<Lure> mdz: yep, I applied late, so could not arrange to get them here
<sabdfl> what about QA?
<Lure> sabdfl: we have now kubunut-testers activity, kicked-off by mhb and hope we can get more interest
<sabdfl> Lure: your packages uploaded list is impressive, clearly people trust you enough to upload
<sabdfl> but i think it would be best to get some testimonials
<sabdfl> with the new process, they could send a signed email testimonial to the MOTU council
<sabdfl> could you pursue that with them?
<Lure> sabdfl: I can wait another round (through council)
<sabdfl> unless someone is available now that you have worked with?
<sabdfl> who has sponsored most of your uploads?
<Lure> sabdfl: Riddell and Tonio_
<Lure> sabdfl: I ping them recently, but they do not seem to be around
<mdz> it's problematic for us to make a decision on something as sensitive as broad upload privileges based only on information provided by the applicant
<Lure> mdz: I am fine to go through conucil
<sabdfl> (though clearly people have been willing to upload your packages)
<sabdfl> ok, should be quick and easy
<Lure> glad to test the new process ;-)
<Lure> Hobbsee might say something about my work (but still most uploads were in main) ;-)
<mdz> ok
<Lure> so lets postpone it
<mdz> thanks for your patience
<mdz> on with the agenda: the MOTU council is next
<Lure> mdz: no problem
<mdz> dholbach: ?
<dholbach> ok... the main processes are sorted out already, but there are some things to the motu council can not decide for themselves, like nomination process, term length, etc
<mdz> dholbach: does the MOTU council already have CC approval?
<dholbach> CC members told me that the TB was going to approve the MC
<sabdfl> yes - we are happy, TB should approve and appoint
* Hobbsee belatedly cheers for Lure!
<sabdfl> yay!
<dholbach> shall we just go through the list on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda ?
<mdz> sure
<mdz> first item is the nomination process
<dholbach> ok, some people wanted to know more about the nomination process
<mdz> I think council members should be nominated by MOTU, and confirmed by the tech board
<Hobbsee> Lure: sorry, i didnt know :(
<pochu> @now Madrid
<Ubugtu> Current time in Europe/Madrid: January 30 2007, 22:05:49 - Current meeting: Technical Board
<mdz> or possibly the reverse
<sabdfl> ;-)
<sabdfl> with the CC / TB, SABDFL nominates and community votes to confirm or select a subset of the nomination
<sabdfl> i'd prefer the same for MOTU council
<sabdfl> folks can of course say they are interested
<mdz> it should be consistent with other team councils
<dholbach> it makes sense to me
<dholbach> any questions from any MOTUs about that?
<mdz> the current draft doesn't specify any nomination at all, as far as I see
<dholbach> (or MOTU hopefuls :))
<dholbach> yes, that's right
<LaserJock> so what is the proposal? TB nominates and MOTUs vote to confirm?
<sabdfl> well
<sabdfl> on the other hand
<sabdfl> the TB is confirmed by ALL developers, including motu
<sabdfl> so
<ajmitch> sabdfl: are you familiar enough with various MOTUs who are involved?
<LaserJock> that's what I was thinking
<sabdfl> it might be simpler just to say "the TB appoint MOTU council" and be done
<sabdfl> they will obviously try to get it right
<sabdfl> and be sensitive to suggestions that they did not, if that happens
<sabdfl> should we go with the lighter touch?
<mdz> I'm happy with a process which is consistent with other team councils
<LaserJock> I personally don't care as much how it's done ( I trust TB ) as that it does get done
<mdz> nominations from TB and confirmation from MOTU sounds reasonable
<Lure> mdz: fyi, Kubuntu council was nominated and elected by Kubuntu team members
<sabdfl> i think the confirmation is excess bureacracy, but i've no problem if MOTU prefers it that way
<Lure> mdz: not sure if this is same
<LaserJock> Edubuntu Council was nominated and elected by Edubuntu people as well
<sabdfl> in general should be nomination by the body that is getting reported to, then confirmation from the group they represent
<sistpoty> sabdfl: I think confirmation is a good thing... gives motu's the feeling that they have some participation in the process as well
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> both edubuntu and kubuntu jumped the queue, a little
<sabdfl> but hey, they picked DAMN GOOD PEOPLE!
<Hobbsee> bah.  fire us if you like :P
<TheMuso> For the time I've been involved with MOTU, I've got the impression that it is a very close knit community.
<sabdfl> let's agree on TB nomination, MOTU confirmation, and move on
<mdz> agreed
<dholbach> "Discuss ubuntumembers and ubuntu-core-dev membership requirements with CC and TB."
<Hobbsee> among MOTU, i suspect that there are certain people that stand out, that would be good for the job, like there were for kubuntu
<mdz> ubuntumembers?
<Lure> mdz: I think similar could be done for Kubuntu/Edubuntu in future: CC nomination, team confirmation
<dholbach> that doesn't make sense
<mdz> ubuntu-core-dev guidelines are documented on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
<mdz> ubuntumembers are determined by the CC and its delegates
<LaserJock> yeah, I was just going to say
<dholbach> I think some people wanted to make sure that the list of requirements / things the MC wants to check for applicants is ok with the TB
<mdz> TB interprets the -core-dev guidelines and approves new core developers
<mdz> dholbach: likewise for ubuntu-dev; I've written down what I think are the fundamental traits of an Ubuntu developer
<mdz> dholbach: the MOTU council should use those when considering applicants
<sabdfl> i'd say 2 year term, staggered
<dholbach> right, I think we can move on
<sabdfl> so we nominate half for one year now, half for two years
<LaserJock> but how we determaine if an applicant has those traits would be up to the MC?
<sabdfl> then renew/replace the 1st half in a year
<sabdfl> then it becomes regular 2-year appointments
<sabdfl> also, MOTU would be granting membership
<sabdfl> so they of course need to factor that in too
<sabdfl> i.o.w. make ubuntu-dev a part of ubuntumembers
<sabdfl> so folks don't have to go to two meetings
<sistpoty> hm... not quite sure if 2 years is a bit too long... many of our "good" motu's moved from universe to main during shorter time
<dholbach> 2 year is quite a while - are the other council memberships also that long?
<sabdfl> once they are a -dev, they are a member
<sabdfl> sistpoty: they can of course stay on the governance of MOTU
<sabdfl> they would be experienced
<LaserJock> Edubuntu Council is 2 releases (1 year)
<Lure> dholbach: kubuntu council is 1 year
<mdz> LaserJock: yes, though they should justify their decision when making it
<sabdfl> i would want to have -core-dev representation on the council
<TheMuso> There is imbrandon and crimsun who also are regular MOTU contributers who are core-dev.
<dholbach> sistpoty: I don't think that doing things in 'main' hinders people from working with MOTUs
<sabdfl> Lure, LaserJock: it gets tiresome to do the voting more often that once per year, and if you want a rolling council, then you need to vote at least twice during one term
<Hobbsee> Lure: we must be coming up to that, surely?
<sistpoty> dholbach: no, it doesn't... but from my experience ppl. will have much less time for universe then ;)
<sabdfl> sistpoty: i suspect that will become less true as the pool grows
<sabdfl> though it's definitely been true so far
<sistpoty> sabdfl: I hope so :)
<dholbach> sistpoty: I think that everybody on the MC will know what is expected from him/her and live up to that :)
<sabdfl> -core-dev is hugely dependent on good work in motu
<sabdfl> dholbach: do you have the list of proposed MC members we discussed?
<dholbach> sabdfl: yeah
<sabdfl> list 'em?
<dholbach> sabdfl: we discussed crimsun, sistpoty, gpocentek and ajmitch
<sabdfl> and you?
<dholbach> and me
<sabdfl> how about we nominate 3 for 2 year terms, and 2 for a one year term (they could be renewed)
<sabdfl> alphabetically, a, c, d, g, s
<sabdfl> how about we just nominate a, d, s for 2 year terms
<sabdfl> and c, g for 1 year term?
<sabdfl> there's no prejudice to the 1 year nominates
<sabdfl> other than that we want to get the rolling going
<Hobbsee> does crimsun have time to it, due to new work commitments?
<sabdfl> don't think motu will have long meetings
<TheMuso> Hobbsee: He'd probably just say yes anyway. :p
<mdz> dholbach: have all of those people volunteered to stand?
<dholbach> Hobbsee: I talked with him about that. He was fine with that.
<dholbach> mdz: yes
<mdz> ok then
<sabdfl> should be more about availability to review candidates for -dev
<sabdfl> if we covered all the timezones i would be happiest
<Hobbsee> dholbach: ah right
<sabdfl> then people can find a member of the council, make their case, and get a +1 in their own timezone
<dholbach> and I think that after a few meetings the MC will have other processes sorted out nicely as well
<sabdfl> right, aim should NOT be CC-style meetings :-)
<sabdfl> just a "wise elders" group that can approve good folks who are doing good work
<Hobbsee> sabdfl: haha.  just dont get any australian people to do it.
<sabdfl> oh, we trust aussies despite heaps of experience
<TheMuso> Thanks!!
<sabdfl> dholbach: thoughts?
<mdz> ajmitch is in one of those ridiculous time zones, no?
<mdz> should be a good spread
<sabdfl> really need two in a timezone
<sabdfl> so if there are other good candidates interested, i'd be happy to hear from them
<sabdfl> and make appointments in mid-cycle
<sabdfl> we don't need to wait a year
<sabdfl> the motu council could be 7-9 people easily
<sistpoty> well... I'm quite a night owl, so I rather hang around with ajmitch than with dholbach ;)
<Hobbsee> mdz: NZ.  and that's slightly better
<Hobbsee> sabdfl: you may trust us, but 3am meetings suck.
<sabdfl> dholbach could always also get a second opinion from a TB member
<dholbach> I like the idea... what do other MOTUs think? Are you happy with the 1year/2year term rolling?
<sabdfl> Hobbsee: idea would be to have only local folks in a meeting
<mdz> it's valuable for the council to be spread out, so that hopefuls have someone to go to who will be around when they are
<zul> im happy with that
<sabdfl> so we could have one in sane hours for asia, with asian council members
<sabdfl> not like TB where we try to have one meeting for the globe
<sabdfl> i think this will be much more efficient
<sabdfl> and easier on the motu council
<sabdfl> will make it easier to get good folkstoparticipate
<sabdfl> inthe council, and in -dev
<LaserJock> dholbach: I'm fine with it I guess
<sistpoty> it would certainly help creating -devs, but it might lead to confusion if the european meeting says x about a policy while the aussies say y
<sistpoty> but I guess we could get that aligned somehow ;)
<mdz> sistpoty: we should hope that the council communicate with one another :-)
<LaserJock> exactly, hopefully most policy discussion would involve ML though
<mdz> s/council/& members/
<dholbach> I'm sure the MC will manage. :-)
<mdz> we're 90 minutes in now; are there any further outstanding issues about the MOTU council?
<sabdfl> good point on the consistency front
<dholbach> Ok, seems we have clarified "Clarify the process for the next appointment." too, so there's only "Clarify the process for communication between TB and MC for ubuntu-dev membership approval." left
<sabdfl> we should look out for that since this is the first time we're creating something that we want to work as a parallel team
<sabdfl> MOTU council should make a note for each candidate
<sabdfl> on why they were approved
<sabdfl> then TB should review those quickly in each meeting
<mdz> dholbach: what I'd like to see is a writeup for each applicant, with an explanation of the council's decision, sent to the tech board
<mdz> so that we can see how the guidelines have been applied
* ajmitch is back
<dholbach> to the mailing list? no meeting-like reporting? for other decision too?
<sabdfl> if there's inconsistency we might ask for someone on TB to ack each decision
<mdz> i.e., review the applicant's work against UbuntuDevelopers
<sabdfl> but for the moment, let's trust that it will just work
<sabdfl> mailing list or wiki page
<mdz> so that there's a concise record of the process
<sabdfl> should be a public list
<sabdfl> the TB list is private
<dholbach> a mail with a link to the wiki would work too, hm? :)
<sabdfl> perfectly :-)
<dholbach> rock and roll :)
<sabdfl> this just for approval cases
<sabdfl> not for declines or "come back when you've done this"
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> anything else regarding the MC? I'm happy
<sabdfl> PUMPED?
<ajmitch> sounds good
<dholbach> ABSOLUTELY :-)
* dholbach hugs sabdfl
<sistpoty> we need the final acks still ;)
<mdz> right, there's no need to justify deferring an application until a later date
<sabdfl> "like i'm your long lost best friend" :-)
<dholbach> sabdfl: sure you are :-)
<sabdfl> +1 from me
<mdz> the council should feel free to do so if it has doubts
<mdz> without any embarrassment for those involved
<mdz> I'm in agreement
<mdz> dholbach: will you document those changes so we can sign off on the final document?
<sabdfl> again, fomr my perspective, any two folks on the council should be sufficient
<dholbach> mdz: yes
<sabdfl> so it doesn't bottleneck on quorum across timezones
<mdz> dholbach: we can do that by mail with the full TB, and not wait for another meeting
<dholbach> alright
<mdz> it should be considered by all members of the tech board, and I don't want it to block on meetings
<mdz> thanks
<dholbach> thank you
<mdz> next -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpAndSupportAccess
<EtienneG> we can see some inside from SF are getting into the Ubuntu folklore ... :)
<sabdfl> well done dholbach - this is a fantastic step
<sabdfl> for the motu
* sabdfl applauds
<mdz> mdke asked that we consider this proposal to change the help interface in the desktop
<dholbach> sabdfl: we all have big expectations :-)
<mdz> I did an initial review and asked for some clarifications
<mdz> which he seems to have made
<mdz> I like the idea of replacing the submenu with a clearer, more navigable page
<mdz> the current menu is confusing
<mdz> I think the page layout could use some tweaking
<mdz> but the basic idea seems sound
<sabdfl> in principle i think this is a good change
<sabdfl> the offer of community and commercial support will get more prominence by release
<sabdfl> i expect that to be a little contentious
<sabdfl> nevertheless, the new proposal is more attractive than the four submenus
<sabdfl> and more sensible
<sabdfl> mdke finally talked me round :-)
<mdz> ok then
<mdz> I'll mark it as approved, and document the feedback
<mdz> we can fine-tune the page as needed
<mdz> next -- reportbug
<mdz> we shipped reportbug in the default install in earlier releases
<sabdfl> sorry
<sabdfl> sec
<sabdfl> do we have full HTML capability on that page?
<mdz> yes
<sabdfl> or is it just Yelp?
<mdz> it's Yelp
<mdz> so FSVO "full"
<sabdfl> hmm
<sabdfl> will ask the folks working on the web site to work with mdke on the page
<sabdfl> need to be able to present a classy picture
<sabdfl> ok, that's all from me
<sabdfl> reportbug!
<mdz> right, we stopped installing reportbug by default in edgy
<mdz> because it doesn't support reporting bugs to launchpad, and other approaches were in development
<mdz> we now have apport
<mdz> which does what we wanted reportbug to do originally, and more
<mdz> in the relevant bug report about this, it was suggested that having reportbug in main is confusing, since it's not our preferred bug reporting tool
<mdz> since it was removed from desktop, the only reason it's still in main is that it's a dependency of dpkg-dev-el
* ajmitch saw some brainstorming about rewriting reportbug to file directly into malone via the html forms
<mdz> (emacs extensions for Debian package development)
<mdz> we can a) drop dpkg-dev-el to universe, b) modify dpkg-dev-el not to depend on reportbug (and appropriate modifications so it's not needed), or c) leave it alone
<ajmitch> reportbug is still useful to keep, but probably not for shipping on the cd
<mdz> it isn't shipped on the CD
<sabdfl> b seems the least intrusive
<mdz> yes, though it does mean diverging the package from Debian
<mdz> and thus more merge work
<sabdfl> would they not accept the patch?
<LaserJock> < mdz> next -- reportbug
<LaserJock> bah, sorry
<sid> wow, I'm getting 1 kilobyte a second from Farmingdale's wireless
<mdz> I don't think having reportbug in main is particularly confusing
<mdz> and it's useful for reporting bugs to projects which use debbugs (including Debian)
<sabdfl> the reportbug description could refer peopleto apport for standard ubuntu bug reporting?
<mdz> but I don't have strong feelings either way, which is why I brought it here
* somerville32 pants as he finally catches up on reading several pages of backlog.
<mdz> this has been a long meeting already, though, and I'm happy to take it to email on technical-board@
<sabdfl> i'm happy with b or c
<sabdfl> mdz, your call
<mdz> ok
<mdz> any other BRIEF business? ;-)
<sabdfl> done!
<sabdfl> and well done
<mdz> thanks, all
<sabdfl> very pleased to see the MOTU reaching this point
<sabdfl> welcome aboard, new devs
<mdz> adjourned
<mdke> (sorry for missing the meeting - was a long day)
<mdke> thanks for discussing the spec anyway
<mdz> mdke: you can review the log
<mdke> mdz: sure
<ajmitch> thanks for sitting through & approving the council
* mdke reviews dinner first
<sistpoty> yay, thanks for the MC thingie :)
<sabdfl> is there a scribe?
<mdz> I summarized the meeting in Issue30
<mdz> the scribes have their first meeting scheduled this week
<mdz> that meeting should be summarized if any ever was ;-)
<dholbach> night sabdfl, night mdz
<mdz> night dholbach
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Jan 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<ausimage> sabdfl: You still up?
<sabdfl> sure
<ausimage> hey good...
<ausimage> I am one of the people starting Scribes
<tonyyarusso> ?
<willys_fueguino> @schedule ushuaia
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Argentina/Ushuaia: 31 Jan 17:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 19:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 20:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 18:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 17:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 09:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-01-31
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 31 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 22:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00: Edubuntu
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 01 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 01 Feb 09:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 10:00: Kubuntu | 02 Feb 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 06 Feb 07:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 23:00: Edubuntu
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 31 Jan 14:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 16:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 14:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 06:00: Edubuntu
<phanatic> @schedule Amsterdam
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 31 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 00:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 21:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu
<ryanakca> @schedule Toronto
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Toronto: 31 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 17:00: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 18:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 15:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Jan 22:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<pirast> @schedule Berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 00:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 21:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu
<RichEd> evening all
<pips1> hi
<cbx33> evening RichEd pips1
<RichEd> ogra ... you around ?
<ogra> indeed
* highvoltage arrives
<pips1> hello AliasVegas
<cbx33> hey ogra get my really large email?
<AliasVegas> Hi Guys! ^_^
<cbx33> oooh nice smiley babes
<highvoltage> hi AliasVegas, cbx33, pips1 ogra and RichEd
<AliasVegas> hehe
* RichEd is bushed after a day of admin work ... too much strain collating claims and trip travel receipts :/
<highvoltage> RichEd: I did the same today, but I feel relieved instead ;)
<RichEd> hi AliasVegas good to "see" you :)
<rodarvus> good evening all
<RichEd> hello rodarvus :)
<highvoltage> ho rodarvus
<pips1> hey rodarvus
<highvoltage> hi, even :)
<ogra> cbx33, yes, but i didnt look at the package yet
<rodarvus> hey guys :)
<ogra> cbx33, i read the first 4 pages during a break thoough
<cbx33> oooh look ok?
<ogra> there is some stuff you will need to correct, but all over its very good, kudos
<cbx33> please say yes
<cbx33> yes....i knew there would be
<cbx33> hence why I was so desperate for you to read over it
<ogra> you got some facts wrong, but thats easy to fix
<cbx33> haha
<cbx33> in which section?
<ogra> nothing harmful
<cbx33> outta interest?
<cbx33> without too much detail
<ogra> well, you start off with me being the project leader of edubuntu :)
<ogra> i'm onl ythe tech lead
<cbx33> oh i see
<RichEd> Well ogra you are the lead of Edubuntu indeed :)
<cbx33> i thought i said that
<ogra> and you shouldnt use nfs servers for time syncronization ... that wont work
<ogra> :)
<RichEd> Your the chief product lead, I'm just the hand wavy education guy.
<RichEd> *You're
<ogra> heh, nah ...
<cbx33> ogra, hahahaha
<RichEd> Looks like a good turnout for the meeting tonight - hope we can get through the necessary in less than 2 hours or before I doze off, whichever comes sooner.
<cbx33> I didn't mean NFS
<highvoltage> ogra: you can't run away, we've got you in a corner now!
<ogra> anyway, lets quickly run through the tech section
<cbx33> i meant NTP
* highvoltage points at the ogry leader of edubuntu
<RichEd> Shall we kick off ... with (drum roll) Oliver on Tech !
<pips1> RichEd: that term 'hand waving' really stuck with me, ever since I heard you use it (in Mountainview)
<ogra> specs:
<ogra> edgy-plusone-thinclient-sound: missing one main inclusion for alsa-plugins, apart from that it's done and rocking the house :)
* RichEd leads the applause
<Maikel> @schedule amsterdam
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: Current meeting: Edubuntu | 31 Jan 23:00: Xubuntu | 01 Feb 00:00: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 21:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu
* pips1 dances to the future sound of edubuntu
<Maikel> Sorry..
<ogra> ltsp-management-gui: python-ltsp (the backend module) is about done, still have to do the gui rewrite .. will start over the weekend
<ogra> student-control-panel-upgrade: well, see petes blog
<ogra> its soooo sexy !!!!!!
<cbx33> it's going well
<cbx33> and the rewrite of the DES encyrption bit switcher worked
<cbx33> so we can now ship VNC stuff
<cbx33> which was in jeperdy at one point
<ogra> edubuntu-network-auth-server: the thing im fighting with since i came back from oslo, spec will need a bunch of changes and the auth server will only be set up for new installs for now
<highvoltage> cbx33: very nice stuff
<cbx33> AliasVegas, and I have to go at 9 today....but we do have some artwork updates...
<nixternal> oi!
<ogra> we wont be able to use the planned frontend, its simply to buggy
<cbx33> :(
<ogra> i'm lookinf for something in replacement atm
<RichEd> mr nixternal .. hey hey
<ajmitch> which frontend?
<ajmitch> edsadmin?
* nixternal is getting ready to leave for school - Documentation needs documenters! I will work on documentation this weekend. I have been super busy with school
<ogra> we could take lat which is considered for upstream inclusion at some point as well
<ogra> ajmitch, yep
<ajmitch> hm, lat is nice but may be complex
<ajmitch> plus we need to fix the package so it builds
<ogra> after using it extensively for one week i saw more chrashes that i would have expected
<ogra> it will be some major work to get it to a level where we could ship it as default
<ajmitch> unfortunate
<ogra> i havent seen any crashers with lat yet
<ajmitch> 1.2.x FTBFS
<ogra> but i extremely dislike its UI
* ajmitch checks build log
<ogra> so i'm still looking around
<ajmitch> oh that's a simple fix, I'll do that now
<highvoltage> UI sounds like something cbx33 is good at, so that will probably be the next phase :)
<ajmitch> if you could check out lat 1.2.x, it may be an improvement over 1.0.7
<cbx33> heheh
<ogra> highvoltage, well, lat is mono
<cbx33> ogra, and...
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> I can learn mono
<cbx33> heheh
<ogra> and edsadmins UI is fine it just explodes all the time
<ajmitch> C# is easy :)
* nixternal goes to school - ROCK ON EDUBUNTU GODS!
<highvoltage> 333/win 3
<highvoltage> fefefe
<nixternal> hahaha
<nixternal> ok, now I am gone
<highvoltage> ew
<highvoltage> oops, sorry
<ogra> anyway, edubuntu-network-auth server should be done before feature freeze, even though it moght not yet be the ful specced variant
* pips1 googles edsadmin and finds 'Erudite Directory Service Admin'
<ogra> edubuntu-auth-client will either be ajmitch's login tool ... but i dont know the status
<ogra> or a static config that points to the local edubuntu server for now
<ajmitch> mostly there, I've got a few spare days
<ajmitch> public holiday in a couple of days :)
* cbx33 thinks of some more things for ajmitch to do
<ogra> important for me with these two specs is that we got all bits and pieces in this time  ...
<cbx33> only a week left
<ajmitch> plus you were going to do a metapackage that asks debconf questions & preseeds?
<ogra> we can improve beyond basic authentication over the releases
<ajmitch> I guess that'll have to come once I ship this for you
<Mithrandir> (we're about a week from creature freeze, uh, feature freeze)
<ajmitch> Mithrandir: yep, I know :)
<ogra> ajmitch, i'm doing a udeb for feisty ...
<cbx33> Mithrandir, tell me about it
<cbx33> :p
<ajmitch> ogra: ok, using debconf?
<ogra> ajmitch, which will then do the preseeding
<ogra> yep
<ajmitch> great
<ajmitch> define what you need preseeded & I'll grab that
<ogra> essentially i dropped the metapackage idea for feisty ... its just to big but i want at least an ldap server in place
<ajmitch> ok
<ogra> else development will get stuck in feisty+1 .... too much of our future plans depends on network auth
<ajmitch> using smbldap, I expect
<ogra> i was planning to, but if that doesnt make FF, i'm also fine with a simple ldap auth ...
<ajmitch> ah right
<cbx33> ogra, ++ about the future plans
<cbx33> hehe
<ogra> the chorus here is "network authentication" no matter how ...
* pips1 's head is wheezing from following ajmitch and ogra 's ping pong
<ajmitch> I'll get this client stuff done & working before I offer to help with server this week
<ogra> we can improve in the future, having a working skeleton is the start for that ...
<highvoltage> ogra++ about network authentication policy!
<cbx33> ogra, I'm gonna need details of whatever we do for the book
<cbx33> heheh
<cbx33> but then you'll see where we are once you've read it all
<highvoltage> ogra: I've found that easy painless authentication isn't too bad with sshfs, even though it uses fuse, wich may put off some people
<rodarvus> highvoltage, not sure I understand the reasoning for that?
<ajmitch> ogra: ok, I'll get this stuff in a day or two, no matter what :)
<ajmitch> I have to run off to work now
<rodarvus> (fuse being a reason for people to be scared)
<highvoltage> rodarvus: it's basically for exporting a filesystem to a client that's booting from a seperate /
<highvoltage> rodarvus: ah
<rodarvus> :)
<rodarvus> (but I might be missing something, of course)
<rodarvus> (ogra is likely timed out, btw)
<rodarvus> his connection, I mean
<RichEd> i was wondering
<cbx33> dang it
<Burgwork> ogra, ajmitch: lat has major crashing issues
<RichEd> Anybody with any other tech news in the meanwhile ?
<RichEd> rodarvus do you want to let people know about your moodle packaging efforts ?
<rodarvus> I do, but I'd like ogra to be here
<RichEd> okie ... anyone else ?
<cbx33> don't think so
<rodarvus> since he raised a point on wwwconfig-common I'm interested in hearing
<cbx33> hey UbaGeek
<UbaGeek> hey cbx33
<UbaGeek> this is cool
<RichEd> I'll introduce the moodle bit then ... we're trying our best to get moodle integrated into Main for Edubuntu.
<RichEd> I was in LCA a week or so ago, and met Martin Douigiamas, the founder of moodle.
<RichEd> He is keen for us to succeed, and to work on spreading both products as a bundle.
<RichEd> LAMS and moodle are also looking at integration and interoperability, and LAMS are also keen to see a Edubuntu / moodle / LAMS easy install bundle.
<cbx33> RichEd, this is all going to be awesome
<cbx33> ogra, must get hacked off with his net connection
<RichEd> The good news for us is that many people want moodle and LAMS as a resource tool, and just want a stable server underneath. That means we can get into libraries and universities and schools even if they are using other distros on the server and desktop space.
<cbx33> yup
<RichEd> moodle is also working on a "moodle cloud" where you can set your server up and join a voluntary clound, and when a user authenticates against any singel server, they are free to move across all servers with the same log-in.
<RichEd> *cloud
<RichEd> so our steps are: #1 bundle moodle with main
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportMoodle
<Burgwork> that needs to be dealt with
<RichEd> rodarvus is busy with that, he'll give an update when ogra is back
<rodarvus> I can start my technical overview on the process
<rodarvus> but would like ogra to be here
<RichEd> step#2 will be a Edubuntu/moodle/database single CD .iso - easy intall, minimal questions and config
<cbx33> can we skip to artwork?
<cbx33> in a sec
<cbx33> as lisa and I only have 30 mins left
<RichEd> so we hope that moodle will recommend our image as being the simplest up & go option.
<Burgwork> RichEd: for that we need to create a moodle task, I suspect
<Burgwork> cbx33: go
<rodarvus> actually, more than that, what I would like to see (or do, even) is a graphical installation/configuration tool for moodle
<RichEd> yep, but moodle will cooperate and we can chew it from both ends.
<pips1> Burgwork: 'moodle task' = ?
<cbx33> http://www.progbox.co.uk/group.jpg - meet the new feisty edubuntu homies
<Burgwork> rodarvus: better to have the graphical client be a web-based thingy, I suspect
<Burgwork> pips1: using tasksel for the installer
<RichEd> and step#3 will be LAMS but that will be feisty+1 or +2
<highvoltage> pips1: debian terminology ;)
<RichEd> cbx33: you can go ahead ...
<cbx33> AliasVegas, has been hard at work
<rodarvus> Burgwork, its kind of a chicken and egg problem, but can be dealt with
<pips1> Burgwork: ta
<AliasVegas> lol
<pips1> cbx33, AliasVegas niiiice
<Burgwork> rodarvus: if you install the moodle server, you get asked for an IP and then told to go to that IP with your workstation
<cbx33> pips1, -cbx33
<cbx33> hehe
<rodarvus> Burgwork, I'm talking about the server configuration, to be honest
<Burgwork> rodarvus: for that we could use debconf
<rodarvus> which is not trivial, and currently is our main point of headaches
<rodarvus> Burgwork, we do
<pips1> AliasVegas: I really like the way they poke fun with the 'victory' sign :_D
<rodarvus> but lets move to artwork, and get back to moodle when ogra is here
<AliasVegas> heheh :P
<rodarvus> otherwise we'll have to discuss this twice :)
<Burgwork> indeed
<cbx33> hey willvdl
<willvdl> hey, sorry I'm late
<rodarvus> (but rationale is: some of the configuration is waaaay beyond what you'd do from inside debconf)
<RichEd> there goes ogra ... me waves
<froud> hey willvdl
<willvdl> hey
<AliasVegas> The clock idea for the ldm login screen has been put on hold till next release....not enough time to complete the code for the clock and it seems like a better idea to do it when the clock can be included
<cbx33> AliasVegas, ++
<cbx33> basically I'm too lazy
* pips1 wasn't aware of the clock idea
<AliasVegas> pips1: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuArtwork/Palette
<cbx33> that was the idea pips1
<cbx33> and it will happen
<cbx33> just not for feisty
<pips1> *click*
<pips1> wow
<willvdl> pips1, I think it's very cool
<Burgwork> pips1: looks great. Clean
<cbx33> yes pips1 Great Work
<cbx33> hehehe
<RichEd> we were also talking about the possibility of making the message board realtime ... for school wide news and announcements
<AliasVegas> :P
<willvdl> gdesklet style :)
<cbx33> RichEd, yes an MOTD system was something AliasVegas and I were keen to do
<pips1> cbx33 :-P
<pips1> hehe
<RichEd> looks slick & clean
<cbx33> and we thought the clock woud give it a nice look
<cbx33> and something dynamic too
<cbx33> but that's for feisty + 1
<cbx33> so...
<highvoltage> would be nice if a teacher could choose all the widgets and place them like gdeskletts, but that's of course way off :)
<cbx33> yes
<AliasVegas> any comments on the latest artwork?? http://www.progbox.co.uk/group.jpg
<pips1> highvoltage: nice imagination! :)
<RichEd> AliasVegas: very anime ... quite hip :)
<AliasVegas> thanks RichEd
<cbx33> ogra, wb
<highvoltage> AliasVegas: well, I don't know if you read the original comments about edubuntugirl, some people might have a problem about where the girl's one hand is
<pips1> AliasVegas: I like the expressions on their faces (especially the smirk of the guy)
<ogra> *SIGH*
<highvoltage> AliasVegas: but it's quite cool :)
<RichEd> welcome back ogra
<willvdl> for the record, I did inquiries into artwork contributions. did anything come through on the ML?
<pips1> highvoltage: shock! horror! ;-)
<ogra> ok, i just discovered a bug in edubuntu-auth-server :)
<AliasVegas> the guy isnt finished yet
<RichEd> ogra: we're going through artwork ... 'cos alias and pete need to dash
<cbx33> AliasVegas, can you repost the link for ogra
<AliasVegas> this is what i have been workin on since 10am
<AliasVegas> lol
<RichEd> then back to ogra and rodarvus will give us a moodle update
<AliasVegas> ogra http://www.progbox.co.uk/group.jpg
<ogra> did you guys contact kwii or did he contact you for artwork ?
<cbx33> nope had no contact
<ogra> hes the hired designer who will do all designs now it seems
<pips1> !!
<highvoltage> kwii, that's a kde wii emulator, right? right!?
<willvdl> ogra, not cliff?
<pips1> highvoltage: LOL
<cbx33> ogra, when was this decided?
<ogra> highvoltage, dont say that to him :) i think he's tired of hearing it ;)
<Riddell> ogra: kwwii
<ogra> cbx33, no idea when mark decided to make it final
<willvdl> cbx33, remember two meeitngs back? the debate around feisty art contributions?
<ogra> ken had done the kubuntu artwork in edgy
<highvoltage> ogra: heh, ok
<cbx33> willvdl, yes
<cbx33> but there was no outcome as far as I knew
<ogra> Riddell, ah, thanks ...
<pips1> AliasVegas: I like the girls hair (on the left): nice shape and tones
<AliasVegas> thanks pips1
<ogra> cbx33, did you send the mail to ubuntu-art we talked about some meetings ago ?
<AliasVegas> highvoltage: can you elaborate on the girls hand comment for me? : )
<cbx33> ogra, i thought I had but didn't see it on the archive
<ogra> that would be where kwwii would pick you up ...
<cbx33> I'll mail him later
<ogra> anyway, i'll try to get him to #edubuntu once
<ogra> or that, even better
<kwwii> evening
<pips1> hello kwwii
<willvdl> speak of the devil :)
<ogra> heh, speaking of the devil
<cbx33> ah hi kwwii
<willvdl> snap
<kwwii> a little bird told me to join
<cbx33> kwwii...was just coming to look for you
<cbx33> :p
<kwwii> ;-)
<ogra> kwwii, meet cbx33 and AliasVegas, our edubuntu artists :)
<RichEd> what's the frequency kenneth  ?
<ogra> Riddell, thanks for that ;)
<kwwii> ogra, cbx33, AliasVegas, hi
<AliasVegas> hi kwwii
<kwwii> RichEd: original :p
<cbx33> kwwii, so....where do we stand for artwork on edubuntu ;)
<highvoltage> AliasVegas: heh, keep it like it is. I think it's fine. I also find emails like this amusing: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2005-October/000628.html
<highvoltage> AliasVegas: so bring it on!
<cbx33> we were just discussin this
<cbx33>  http://www.progbox.co.uk/group.jpg
<kwwii> cbx33: well, until now I have only discussed working on the login screen with ogra
<AliasVegas> highvoltage: heheh thatnks!! ^_^
<kwwii> cbx33: it would depend on what needs to be done
<kwwii> until now it is unclear to me how tied to ubuntu edubuntu is, art-wise
<ogra> kwwii, we usually ship a default wallpaper with a kids wallpaper alongside ... http://www.progbox.co.uk/group.jpg would be a kids variant ...
<ogra> kwwii, login window, gnome splash, wallpaper(s)
<ogra> thats usually what we change ...
<kwwii> ogra: well, I will be working on Ubuntu and Kubuntu stuff anyway, so I guess some of that work could end up in edubuntu as well, if there is a desire to do it
<ogra> right
<kwwii> mainly, if we pick one look the hardest part is filling in all the pieces
<ogra> thats why AliasVegas should coordinate it with you
<kwwii> sounds great
<ogra> edubuntu has a it more freedom to be more colorful and fresher ...
<kwwii> we can discuss that offline, if it is not pertinent to this meeting
<ogra> even though we start targeting older audience ...
<highvoltage> ogra: perhaps this is not the right meeting for this, but isn't it possible that there would be a kubuntu edubuntu metapackage at some point, perhaps edubuntu should have a KDM theme as well?
<ogra> kwwii, right ...
<kwwii> sorry for disturbing :-)
<ogra> highvoltage, i'd like to leave that to some kedubuntu people
<ogra> kwwii, you never disturb, you know that :)
<highvoltage> heh
<ogra> highvoltage, your ressouces are to small to care for multiple DEs
<rodarvus> kedubuntu!
<kwwii> if we could somehow come to a state where all the *buntu's shared the same look it would be really easy ;-)
<ogra> and if i would care for a second one my choice would be xfce for now
<highvoltage> ogra: true, but often it's just a fact of life and we have to deal with it ^_^
<ogra> simply because the request fr it is bigger in the edu landscape
<kwwii> one set of SVGs with a makefile like "make blue"
<ogra> and a script that only adjusts the color values :)
<willvdl> kwwii, can you do that with svg?
<ogra> easily
<kwwii> I actually had something like that running for suse a long time ago
<kwwii> ;-)
* willvdl is suddenly very impressed
<willvdl> useful
<ogra> willvdl, you can edit svg with a text editor
<rodarvus> I believe you can even embed js inside an svg
<ogra> yep
<ogra> you guys should probably schedule an artwork meeting or somethng like that
<cbx33> ogra, already happeneing
<ogra> if anything on the packaging side is needed, feel free to abuse me :)
<cbx33> hehe
<cbx33> oh i will
* willvdl is grateful he's not good at packaging
<pips1> so the result is: kwii will coordinate with AliasVegas
<ogra> right
<ogra> and with me if it comes to technical details
<AliasVegas> alrighty ^_^
<ogra> is that it for artwork ? i'D like to finish tech ...
<AliasVegas> Yep
<cbx33> yes
<cbx33> sorry ogra
<pips1> AliasVegas: keep up the nice work, and tell us if kwwii is nasty, then we will gang up on him! ;-)
<ogra> great, where did i stop ... edubuntu-network-client will either be ajmitch's tool or a static setup ...
<AliasVegas> pips1: hehe thankyou!
<ogra> during the crash i had some mins ago i found an evil bug with udev .... i have to examine that but it might stop edubuntu-auth-server from feisty ... :/
<RichEd> pity :/
<ogra> well, lets see
<rodarvus> ouch
<ogra> udev needs userauthentication and groupauthentication if it creates the initial devices
<pips1> 8-O
<ogra> that cant be there at this point if we are our own server (there is no filesystem mounted yet)
<ogra> its probably solveable through an easy setting or something ... but its a bug i didnt expect
<ogra> and it locked me out completely, so i needed a liveCD to recver
<ogra> *recover
<ogra> nothing i'd want to bother our testers with
* pips1 touches wood for network-auth
<highvoltage> ogra: just call it a random security feature
<ogra> ok, something positive .....
<ogra> edubuntu-on-two-cds
<Mithrandir> uh, why can't it map unauthenticated accesses to nobody?  That should be enough to get you started.
<ogra> Mithrandir, will look, i havent dug through all the nsswitch options yet
<ogra> thanks for the pointer
<ogra> :)
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/daily/current/
<ogra> edubuntu-on-two-cds ^^^^
<pips1> yay
<highvoltage> :-D
<ogra> WE HAVE 650MB SPARE SPACE !!!!
<ogra> (only on the server iso though)
<willvdl> put in a wikipedia snapshot
<willvdl> that should do it :)
<ogra> the gnome-app-install hook is still missing
<ogra> so the CD only starts up synaptic atm
<rodarvus> ogra, not for long ;)
<ogra> but even with that i'D be happy to go ;)
<highvoltage> ogra: even that is a major improvement
<rodarvus> cheers
<highvoltage> bye rodarvus
<ogra> ltsp-fat-clients: the one spec i wouldnt care to defer
<rodarvus> no, I'm not leaving :)
<ogra> if the auth-server makes it, it wil be implemented as well
<rodarvus> (I meant "cheers" as "way to go!")
<willvdl> highvoltage, he's drinking :)
<ogra> all pieces apart from network aouth are implemented
<highvoltage> willvdl: ah, of course, he's brazillian
<rodarvus> nah, just coke
<rodarvus> and poor command of english
<ogra> but if that one desnt make it i wil drop fat clients as well
<highvoltage> fat clients was always dependent on auth
<ogra> ltsp-persistent-home: deferred
<highvoltage> it's easy to hack up for an administrator who really, really wants it, at least
<willvdl> ogra, I'm rusty on the spec for fat-client, is that a network booted diskless fat?
<ogra> better-moodle-integration: rodarvus is packaging moodle 1.7 atm ...
<ogra> thats al about tech
<rodarvus> my turn, then
<cbx33> phew that's a lot
<Burgwork> we were talking about how to configure the moodle server
<ogra> willvdl, thats a netbooted workstation
<willvdl> ogra, cool
* RichEd hands the mike to rodarvus 
<rodarvus> as RichEd said on his introduction to the moodle subject, I'm working on properly packaging moodle for main
<ogra> Burgwork, not differently from the defaults now ... we need a safe upgrade path
<Burgwork> ah
<rodarvus> this task is twofold: removing the usage of wwwconfig-common from the postinst/postrm/prerm scripts
<RichEd> [ Burgwork: the simple CD .iso will be a next step ] 
<rodarvus> and, since we want to have a very close relationship with upstream (and for security reasons)
<rodarvus> I'm also working on the update of our moodle package for the latest version
<rodarvus> the rationale is we base our package on debian's, which is version 1.6.3
<ogra> which should essentially only be a replacement of the orig.tar.gz ...
<ogra> right
<rodarvus> debian has frozen main, so won't have a new version for a while
<rodarvus> ogra, no, it isn't
<ogra> oh, why is that ?
<rodarvus> database schema is different, for instance
<ogra> ah
<rodarvus> moodle 1.7.0 (.1, actually) is quite an upgrade from 1.6.x
<rodarvus> various new modules, and added features
<ogra> i only knew about added utf8 support
<rodarvus> no :)
<rodarvus> wait a sec, I'll grab the list
<willvdl> A db schema change is quite drastic isn't it?
<ogra> yes it is :/
<rodarvus> Roles - Moodle has a complete new architecture for assigning people permissions.
<rodarvus> XML database schema - Moodle now supports a single way of specifying database structures using XML
<ogra> thats something we need to sort in our new upstream relationship
<rodarvus> New admin interface
<rodarvus> and
<rodarvus> Unit testing framework
<rodarvus> (various other small features too)
<rodarvus> but these are the big ones
<willvdl> how would the unit testing framework affect users?
<rodarvus> it won't
<rodarvus> its for developers only
<rodarvus> but as moodle is quite extensible, we might see many users adding their own modules for added spice on their courses/seminars
<willvdl> rodarvus, not tech doc yet, but is their documentation up to date?
<rodarvus> it is
<willvdl> gooood
<ogra> they have awesome docs
<rodarvus> willvdl, but unfortunately, I was not able to link it to yelp :/
<ogra> moodle is one of the best docced apps i've seen so far
<rodarvus> they have great docs, and a dedicated (?) person for that
<rodarvus> what they are (unfortunately) lacking is on quality code, regarding security
<rodarvus> moodle has had 13 secunia issues in the last two years
<rodarvus> two of them are open for moodle 1.6.x
<ogra> well, its php ...
<ogra> what would you expect
<rodarvus> to be sincere, I'm not confident on what will be the response of pitti to our MIR
<rodarvus> ogra, indeed, it resembles mediawiki a lot, on this regard
<ogra> we will urely get restrictions
<highvoltage> ogra: I hear the main ubuntu.com site is going to be driven by php soon
<ogra> like i did for pulseaudio
<willvdl> drupal, yeah
* ajmitch returns to irc, what did I miss?
<rodarvus> ogra, indeed, which takes me to the question you asked me on email, this morning (regarding how I dropped wwwconfig-common)
<ogra> its not allowed into -desktop
<ogra> but its allowed into main, so i can use it in ltsp
<rodarvus> I basically reimplemented all the scripts manually, based on what they were doing from inside wwwconfig-common
<ogra> rodarvus, i'd still like to see that scripts :)
<rodarvus> but parts of the scripts (the parts related to postgresql) are changing for 1.7
<rodarvus> ogra, sure
<rodarvus> nothing out of extraordinary, to be honest
<ogra> yes, please focus on 1.7 ... i will try to get a FF exception if one is needed
<pips1> rodarvus: The new roles feature in 1.7.1 has caused our moodle admin quite a big headache. he upgraded from 1.6.4 and ended up with automatic course subscriptions of students that weren't supposed to be there... I think that problem still persists in moodle upstream :-/
<rodarvus> ogra, I *really* don't think it will be needed
<ogra> rodarvus, worst case ... you never know
<rodarvus> (unless we have huge problems, which I haven't had yet)
<rodarvus> right
<willvdl> "worst case ... you never know" ... lol
<rodarvus> pips1, right. this is one of my worries (and the reason why it is not a trivial orig.tar.gz upgrade)
<rodarvus> there isn't really much we can do, apart from either:
<rodarvus> 1. having a separate package for moodle 1.6 and 1.7
<rodarvus> or
<rodarvus> 2. ignoring upgrade users (which I don't think will happen :P )
<ogra> 1. is fine with me
<ogra> we divert from debian anyway
<rodarvus> nice
<willvdl> seeing as tis is the first time we package moodle with our release, can we not work around that with good docs?
<ajmitch> rodarvus: did you not consider using dbconfig-common?
<rodarvus> that is on my plans too, if we find out upstream is not supporting database schema updates properly
<ogra> so people wanting to use 1.6 can get the debian upgrades as long as they fix 1.6
<rodarvus> ajmitch, no, I didn't, to be sincere
<ajmitch> ok, that's been promoted as a replacement for wwwconfig-common
<ajmitch> afaik
<ajmitch> sorry to tell you about it after the work has been done :)
<rodarvus> nice!
<rodarvus> (its less useful for 1.7, if we don't support upgrades from 1.6, but nice, still :) )
<rodarvus> anyhow, this is my tech update for moodle, unless someone has comments or questions
<ogra> sounds great !
<pips1> rodarvus: will moodle run on the edubuntu server by default?
<rodarvus> RichEd can probably give more details on this regard, I think (from his conversations with upstream)
<ogra> thats the plan
<ogra> edubuntu will be a fully fledged setup with all server apps we promote ...
<ogra> so its easy to make derivatives by switching off parts
<cbx33> :)
<ogra> edubuntu itself sould always have all features we put effort in :)
<ajmitch> rodarvus: I'm just filing a sync request for dbconfig-common now to get the latest, 1.8.30 has some useful fixes :)
<willvdl> so moodle goes on server install but not workstation install right?
<ogra> to show off with integration ;)
<ogra> right
<rodarvus> willvdl, yes, no reason to have it on workstataion installs
<ogra> it wont be on the desktop CD and not in wrokstation installs ...
<ogra> only on the first server CD
<willvdl> did I miss TCM BTW?
<ogra> with a default config
<highvoltage> willvdl: try channel 7
<pips1> has there been any thinking about integrating user administration of edubuntu and moodle? or is that feisty+5 ? :)
<rodarvus> one thing I talked briefly with Burgwork and others is about a (theoric) tool for extra configuration of moodle
<rodarvus> would be nice for us to collaborate with upstream on this regard
<ogra> willvdl, 09:07	ogra	student-control-panel-upgrade: well, see petes blog
<Burgwork> pips1: for that you would need an ldap plugin for moodle
<ajmitch> Burgwork: there's probably one floating around
<rodarvus> there are various little configurations and tweaks on moodle which could benefit from that
<ogra> pips1, afaik there are ldap integartion bits for moodle ...
<ajmitch> Burgwork: google shows me docs for it :)
<ogra> that would be a good feisty+1 target ;)
<willvdl> ogra, thanks
<Burgwork> ajmitch: right, figured it would be likely
<Burgwork> rodarvus: see the first run config stuff of wildfire (the jabber server)
<Burgwork> it is quite slick
<ajmitch> ogra: could you tell me later (after meeting I guess) just what you need for pam_mount config for network auth?
<rodarvus> Burgwork, will do, thanks!
<rodarvus> but imho, these configs are not stuff for a "first run", but instead, configurations which can be enabled/tweaked by administrators wanting advanced features
<ogra> ajmitch, i'm not sure i need anything yet ... that will depend if i do samba integration now or in feisty+1
<Burgwork> actually, "do you want user stuff stored in moodle or ldap" is a first run question
<ogra> with nfs mounts there shouldnt be any modifications necessary
<ajmitch> ogra: assuming you need it now, I want to be prepared
<ajmitch> ok
* ajmitch has the start of a module for it, but no config setting yet
<pips1> Burgwork: good point
<ogra> anyway, lets not get the tech stuff to big ... reports are done
* ogra hands the mic back to RichEd 
* pips1 thinks the tech guys are cracking aces
<pips1> :-)
<pips1> can't wait to lay my hands on feisty
<ogra> pips1, lets see if we are aces *on time*
<pips1> heh
<Burgwork> indeed
<ogra> thats thew more worring bit atm
<ogra> feature freeze is near
<pips1> RichEd: ping?
<pips1> oh oh, seems all that tech talk sent someone to sleep alright ;-)
<ogra> what did you covere apart from artwork while i tried to get back into my system ?
<ogra> *cover
<willvdl> RichEd has a bad lag. Shall we move to docs?
<willvdl> just phoned me
<pips1> nothing, apart from nixternal piping in that he makes a promise to work on docs this weekend
<ogra> feel free, i'm done
<pips1> willvdl: ?
<willvdl> rodarvus, about moodle docs
<willvdl> how will it integrate at the mo
<willvdl> if not in yelp
<rodarvus> well, not with yelp, unfortunately. I tried to hack a script to merge moodle docs into yelp xml, but failed miserably
<ogra> willvdl, they are contained in moodle
<rodarvus> apart from that, they are html files
<rodarvus> contained in moodle, as ogra said
<willvdl> context help in moodle
<ogra> afaik if you install them they show up as a module
<froud> rodarvus: what is src for moodle docs?
<willvdl> OK, so we don't have to consider anything special for it on or off-line?
<ogra> froud, moodle upstream
<froud> wiki
<froud> moin
<willvdl> any thoughts on an install doc? vs having it in handbook?
<rodarvus> froud, basic html
<rodarvus> created by moodle upstream
<rodarvus> not sure if they use something else to create it
<froud> rodarvus: isn't there a round trip script from wiki to db and back in ubuntu-doc
<rodarvus> (might be a good idea to talk with them on the subject)
<froud> rodarvus: html 2 db is a hard one
<RichEd_> hi guys - sorry other machine is hanging on me
<rodarvus> froud, it *might* be, but I think it is created specifically for use inside moodle, and not for a common wiki
<rodarvus> (hmm, no - mediawiki with heavy plugin usage)
<pips1> hold on, aren't you guys talking about two different things? there is a documentation that comes as a moodle module (static html), and there is a work-in-progress online documentation wiki, right?
<froud> rodarvus: http://wiki.docbook.org/topic/Html2DocBook
<froud> It's not 100% fire and forget though
<rodarvus> pips1, this is right
<pips1> are you now talking about packaging up the work-in-progress wiki doc?
* rodarvus isn't
<pips1> froud: ? :)
<froud> pips1: I think we speaking on both
<froud> 1. module
<rodarvus> I'm saying that the static docs are positively not wiki, but I'm not sure if they are generated from a mediawiki or such, by the moodle documentation person
<froud> 2. wiki
<cbx33> sorry just popping in on docs....
<rodarvus> (*and* that I will talk with him to get more info on that)
<willvdl> cbx33, are TCM docs a load of work?
<pips1> right, oki
<cbx33> willvdl, not really
<froud> rodarvus: let me know if I can help in some nice way
<cbx33> and most of it will be written for the edubuntu chapter in the ubuntu book anyway
<cbx33> so I can just hack it up a bit
<willvdl> cnx33, will you have yelp integration?
<cbx33> well I 'll rewrite/hack up...not sure if my editor will like me just copying the text from the book
<froud> rodarvus: as I recollect, yelp does read HTML, no?
<ogra> i guess you need one screenshot per fuction and one explanatory sentence
<cbx33> ogra, if you can just check through that doc and make changes where necessary that'll be a great help
<ogra> that shoud be enouhg
<cbx33> ogra, exactly
<cbx33> infact the handbook already has a lot
<cbx33> and all the screenshots were done
<cbx33> got to dash now
<cbx33> see y'all later
<cbx33> thanks ogra
<RichEd_> bye cbx33
<willvdl> cbx33, ciao
<RichEd_> thanks
<ajmitch> bye cbx33
<ogra> ciao cbx33
<cbx33> bye ajmitch RichEd willvdl ogra
<ogra> think abou tthat we need to update screenshts with the final artwork
<cbx33> ye
<cbx33> s
<cbx33> ogra, screenshots are not done for the book yet
<ogra> ah, ok
<cbx33> and most of the tcm/scp are done of tiny potions which don't change much
<willvdl> maybe even a screencast? :)
<cbx33> could do
<popey> \o/ screencasts
<popey> hi cbx33
<rodarvus> froud, it reads xml
<froud> rodarvus: yes, but also HTML
<rodarvus> but anyhow, nice - help is always appreciated :)
<willvdl> froud, I don't think it does read html
<willvdl> not like khelp
<froud> willvdl: hmmm then they took support for it out
<rodarvus> it expects XML, using the specific DTD used by the gnome documentation, afaik
<AliasVegas> bye guys!
<willvdl> AliasVegas, ciao
<froud> shame getting moodle docs in would have been simple scrollkeeper touch if yelp still supported it
<froud> will try yelp an html page please I am on kde
<froud> willvdl: can you try yelp an html page please I am on kde
<cbx33> bye AliasVegas
<willvdl> froud looking
<pips1> bye AliasVegas
<froud> willvdl: try that nepad eschools page you built today
* RichEd_ waves bye to AliasVegas
<willvdl> trying to point yelp to a url...
<froud> try page on disk
<willvdl> built that on kde :)
<froud> it will also build on gnome
<rodarvus> froud, willvdl: "Yelp serves as a DocBook viewer, a man page viewer, and an info page viewer. This page serves as a development workspace for Yelp and gnome-doc-utils. For the content that goes into Yelp, see the GNOME DocumentationProject."
<willvdl> it does read html
<rodarvus> http://live.gnome.org/Yelp
<willvdl> just did drag and drop of html file into it
<froud> willvdl: thx
<froud> rodarvus: yes that is what they say, but reality is not the same
<pips1> heh
<froud> rodarvus: hence you can take moodle html and package it
<froud> then just update scrollkeeper
<willvdl> simple omf pointer right?
<froud> willvdl: yes
<froud> this could save many hours
<willvdl> anyhoo
<rodarvus> you mean scrollkeeper would be able to index an html file?
<rodarvus> that would be great news
<froud> but may create issues for l18n
<willvdl> maybe not index it
<willvdl> sorry, ignore me
<rodarvus> well, if not index it, I don't see the point of opening moodle documentation from inside yelp
<rodarvus> (unless I'm missing something else)
<rodarvus> in this case, yelp would be a simple html browser
<willvdl> unless linked from the front page...
<froud> rodarvus: scrollkeeper does no index it just keeps track of docs when they are registered with it
<froud> rodarvus: yelp will search the html though, I think I recollect that
<rodarvus> and yelp is far from good at parsing generic html - it has a very weak html parser
<froud> rodarvus: choose your poison, round trip or tweak :-)
<willvdl> well lets see if it does work, otherwise a context system within moodle is good enough?
<rodarvus> froud, what I mean is, imho, the real reason to use yelp as a moodle help viewer would be to have the help contents properly indexed and linked
<rodarvus> froud, heh
<willvdl> rodarvus, agree
<froud> is there a use case for this? sorry I am missing info
<rodarvus> otherwise, it just makes more sense to browse the documentation from inside moodle - since moodle will be running on firefox or similar most (all?) of the time
<froud> hence my question on the use case
<froud> effort vs reward
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<willvdl> let's take this offline?
<froud> np
<rodarvus> agreed
<ogra> sounds good
<ogra> Ubugtu is pushy
<rodarvus> <Ubugtu> meeting is over, or rather, should be!
* ogra makes a threatening gesture to the schedule bot ...
<willvdl> pips1, you around tomorrow?
<pips1> willvdl: yep
<cellofellow> oops. got messed up on the time. I'm so late.
<rodarvus> next would be community?
<ogra> anything left ?
<willvdl> pips1, cool, just want you to proof something
<rodarvus> (RichEd I guess, but his connection is laggy)
<maxamillion> well, its two minutes past ... i think we can wait a couple more for others to show up for the Xubuntu meeting
<ogra> well, seems there is a xubuntu meeting starting now, we're over time
<RichEd_> ogra: not from my side ... will do the conference sttuff next weeek
<RichEd_> thanks all
<rodarvus> thanks guys
<ogra> thanks all
<pips1> thanks
<willvdl> thansk
<RichEd_> pips1: will chat with you tomorrow
<pips1> ok
<pips1> time?
<RichEd_> same time
<pips1> morning? afternoon?
<pips1> ah
<pips1> 4 pm UTC
* RichEd_ is leaving to fix w/s
<RichEd_> yep.
<Jester45> hello
<pips1> willvdl: what about you?
<pips1> morning? afternoon?
<willvdl> #edubuntu then quick?
<pips1> ok
<willvdl> cool. ciao all
<maxamillion> Everyone here for Xubuntu meeting?
<Jester45> i am
<philth> aye!
<vidd_laptop> yes
<cellofellow> I guess. :P
<vidd_laptop> if they are not, they can stay anyway
<maxamillion> ok .... current time on my irssi window says 2206UTC so I guess we shall begin
<vidd_laptop> what is first on the meeting agenda?
<maxamillion> Cody was not able to make the meeting today so he asked me to attempt to provide some direction and touch on a few key points that need to be discussed
<maxamillion> first item up is Documentation efforts and their current state of organization
<maxamillion> Maximilian1st: welcome
<cellofellow> occasional gobby sessions aren't exactly organized.
<Maximilian1st> Hi max
<maxamillion> for the sake of Maximilian1st ....
<Maximilian1st> thanks
<maxamillion> first item up is Documentation efforts and their current state of organization
<Maximilian1st> :-)
<vidd_laptop> who is "the man" as far as documentation?
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: that i don't know ....
<maxamillion> but here is a wiki break down of documentation as it stands ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Documentation/Wiki?highlight=%28xubuntu%29
<maxamillion> i think we should find a more organized way for contributors to "sign up" for sections they would like to work on and that way showing other users what parts of the official documentation are already being worked on (also, if you are to work on a section that someone else is working on please be in contact with them so we aren't doing work over again)
<maxamillion> thoughts, questions, comments?
* vidd_laptop has noticed most of the xubuntu documentation is rehashed ubuntu documentation
<vidd_laptop> a lot, anyway'
<vidd_laptop> to the point thaT some instructions say to use "gedit"
<vidd_laptop> are we going to have a complete and seperate section of documentation...like kubuntu does?
<maxamillion> it is, but there are alot of Xubuntu specifics that go into our documentation that aren't a part of theirs such as network configuration, basic UI customization, etc. ... the differences have to do with the xfce DE and the applications Xubuntu uses compared to ubuntu
<maxamillion> yes, we are ... just like we did with dapper (apparently it got skipped because lack of man power for docs... a problem we don't want to have happen again)
* vidd_laptop will volunteer to work on networking and wireless networking documentation
<maxamillion> ok, for sake of momentum can we agree to find a way to implement a structured wiki sign up for documentation sections?
<vidd_laptop> agreed
* maxamillion assumes others are idle
<maxamillion> next order of business is Artwork ... there is deadline 1 coming up for artwork, which i believe JMak is in charge of, but it doesn't appear that he is here so I think I will email him about it later
<maxamillion> moving along is Herd 3 Testing and the new testing procedure https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ReportingResults
<maxamillion> Again, just as we had with the Herd2 testing I think we will have a sign up on the wiki for where users can sign up for what they would like to participate with but I think all results should be submitted via the requested procedure found the wiki link i just posted about the new testing
<Jester45> time for release?
<maxamillion> Jester45: very good question ... sadly I lack the answer, but I'm pretty sure it is coming up soon ... it will be announced in #xubuntu, one the -devel and -users mailing lists, on xubuntu.org in the news feed section, and on ubuntuforums.org when it does happen
<vidd_laptop> when are we going to acually see the new default icon sets and themes?
<maxamillion> I will speak with Cody tonight and see if we can get a wiki setup similar to the one for Herd2 but compensate for the new testing style
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: i am under the impression that is what the artwork deadline is about, so i am personally hoping for herd3 image to have them
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: that question also kinda ties into the next order of business ...
<maxamillion>     *
<maxamillion>       How can we improve the default Xubuntu settings (ie. panel setup, applet setup, etc.)? How can we learn from other Xfce4 based distros to improve our default settings/setup?
<maxamillion> thoughts, questions, comments?
<vidd_laptop> i think we should go to the "one taskbar" setup, and incluse a menu bar similar to dapper, as opposed to edgy
<maxamillion> this is where community input is most needed in my opinion, because its the community that is going to use it daily and endorse it personally, so why not make it what you want? (or atleast as close to what _you_ want as long as the group can come to a neutral agreement)
<Jester45> i think it should stay the same
<Jester45> one thing i would really like is a drag/drop menu
<maxamillion> i think it should stay the way it is too ... alot of what people enjoy about the current setup is its uniformity with Ubuntu and with the general look of Gnome, which i think is a positive thing
<Maximilian1st> As a simple user I use a single panel centered on the bottom. If that can help you out a bit.
<Jester45> so you can drag the links around to your best use
<vidd_laptop> we should reinstate the terminal, file manager and "run" on the menu
<maxamillion> Jester45: don't quote me on this, but i think you might be able to do that in Xfce4.4-stable which is in feisty
<Jester45> maxamillion: then no need to add that:)
<Jester45> Maximilian1st: i think there should still be a top bar to hold the menu and firefox
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: yes, i agree ... there is actually also talk about writing a panel plugin that creates links to "Places" just like the Gnome second menu does ... so we will kinda be faking a second menu (i don't know if it will happen, but it was discussed)
<Jester45> maxamillion: links as in internet site link?
<Jester45> or folder links
* vidd_laptop thinks the "places" menu like gnome should be an option, not default
<maxamillion> Jester45: agreed .... I think we will be sticking with the current panel layout for uniformity, because if we can get our defaul installation to resemble Ubuntu almost "to the T" then I think more Ubuntu users will consider it as an alternative (especially because of its light weight aspect)
<Jester45> yes i agree with vidd_laptop
<maxamillion> Jester45: folder links ... $HOME, Trash, etc. ... just popular things users tend to want easier access to)
<maxamillion> well, like i said ... it's only been talked about, i'm not sure any code has even been drafted for it
<vidd_laptop> is there (or will there be) a way to drag and drop menu items to the desktop to create shortcuts?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 31 Jan 23:00 UTC: Kubuntu | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<vidd_laptop> and vise versa?
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: that i don't know .. I haven't tested the full functionality of Xfce4.4-stable
<Maximilian1st> There won't be before 4.6
<Jester45> i dont like the idea of the trash bin menu stuff i dont like the trashbin to begin with
<Maximilian1st> You can use the appfinder to do some d&d
<maxamillion> interesting tour about Xfce4.4-Stable .... all these features will be in Feisty http://www.xfce.org/about/tour
<vidd_laptop> maxamillion, i see in that tour that a2ps is needed for mousepad to print....
<maxamillion> that is all that appeared to be on the agenda for the evening, so i guess we could move to an open forum ...
<vidd_laptop> we going to have a work around, or will a2ps be included by default?
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: it might be, there has always been issued with mousepad being able to print
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: not sure, i would have to ask Jani about that
<vidd_laptop> any other business?
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: nope ... just open forum for any questions, concerns, or comments
<vidd_laptop> has a chat program been choosen as default yet?
<maxamillion> i believe it is still Gaim
<vidd_laptop> gaim is an IM program....
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: it does irc
<vidd_laptop> ill see you on -offtopic in a few then to discuss that
<vidd_laptop> =] 
<vidd_laptop> what about an FTP program?
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: i am actually working on getting gFTP in feisty, but i don't know if it will happen
<vidd_laptop> what is holding it back?
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: i keep bringing it up, but i don't know if it will make the cut
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: i'm not entirely sure to be honest
<vidd_laptop> i think we need to compile a list of "must-have" apps (types-not specific)
<vidd_laptop> so we can get some kind of consensus of what kind of apps this distro should have by default
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: not a bad idea .... I will look into starting a spec for "required apps" on the wiki and we can pass it along to Jani once we have it fine tuned
<vidd_laptop> one other thing....
<vidd_laptop> the volume control panel app should be enabled by default.....
<vidd_laptop> i see so many questions about volume buttons not working
<vidd_laptop> and if the volume control panel app is enabled, they do work
<maxamillion> vidd_laptop: good point, another thing that should be brought up in the -devel mailing lists
<maxamillion> well .... its 50 after and business seems to have been concluded so I think i will call this meeting to a close, thanks to all those who attended and participated
* Jester45 agrees
<ron_> hm
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Kubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<Tonio_> hi all !
<Hobbsee> IT'S THE KUBUNTU MEETING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<claydoh> hello!
<Jucato> hi
<Hobbsee> YAY, CLAYDOH!
<Jucato> hi claydoh
* Tonio_ is Anthony Mercatante
<claydoh> I will be here for the whole meeting I think :)
* Hobbsee kills her capslock
<Hobbsee> claydoh: woot :)
* allee is Achim Bohnet
* Hobbsee is a green alien
* Mithrandir tickles the alien
* claydoh is a fat bastard :0
<Jucato> lol
* allee paints Hobbsee pink
* Hobbsee is now a green alien painted pink
* Lure is Luka Renko
* Hobbsee stomps on Mithrandir's feet
<Riddell> mischivous bunch tonight
<Hobbsee> hey Mithrandir!  nice of you to join us :)
* Mithrandir has already jumped out of the way.
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: i run faster than that
* Hobbsee paints Riddell red
<Riddell> agenda is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: I don't know how long I'll be hanging around for.  It's midnight here now.
* claydoh really is Clay Weber
<Tonio_> Lure: I'll upload soundkonverter by the end of the meeting
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: ouch
<Riddell> do we have any memberships to start with?
<Hobbsee> we do. two
<Lure> Tonio_: no hurry
<Hobbsee> or 3
<Jucato> O.o
<Tonio_> Riddell: manchicken and Jucato
<Tonio_> manchicken: ping ?
<manchicken> w00t?
<Jucato> who's the 3rd?
<Hobbsee> claydoh's not going for membership today?
<claydoh> umm....
<claydoh> did I apply?
<Tonio_> manchicken: can you shortly introduce yourself and your work past present on kubuntu ?
<Hobbsee> claydoh: no.  but you were on hte proposed members list
<Riddell> and wiki page and laucchpad page
<manchicken> Sure.
<manchicken> Howdy, my name is Mike "manchicken" Stemle.  I'm 25 a week from tomorrow, and I've been hacking for quite some time.  I've been hacking for kubuntu for only a short while--since December 9th--and in that short period of time I've managed to get quite a bit done.  I've implemented a tabbed interface for kde-systemsettings, and a couple features in adept including an icon display to indicate packages that are officially
<manchicken> supported.
<Tonio_> Riddell: yes, that was obvious to me, sorry :)
<manchicken> Outside of kubuntu, I've also helped the kopete project with porting SMS to Qt4/KDE4, and an enhancement for meta-contacts.  I've spent quite a bit of time answering and asking questions in #kubuntu as well.  I plan to continue participating in the development efforts of kubuntu and KDE.
<manchicken> My wiki is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikeStemleJr
<manchicken> Any questions?
<Riddell> Chicaco.. met whiprush?
<manchicken> The name doesn't ring a bell.  It's possible.  I'm not skilled with that whole "names" thing.
<Riddell> manchicken: what brought you to kubuntu?
<manchicken> I've met a lot of people.
<Hobbsee> didnt whiprush leave ubuntu?  or am i imagining things?
<manchicken> I've been a KDE user since (I think it was) 1998.
<Riddell> impressive, longer than me :)
<manchicken> I used debian back when it was still pretty manual, so I knew debs were rockin.
<manchicken> I was a SuSE user, but the political climate turned me from SuSE.
<Tonio_> like with a lot of users unfortunatelly...
<manchicken> Ubuntu is rather well recognized for free software advocacy, and that's right up my street.
<ron_> excuse me, what'S this whole meeting about
<Riddell> manchicken: how did you find out about #kubuntu-devel?
<allee> did you participate in the former distro you used too, e.g. debian?
<Tonio_> ron_: kubuntu development
<manchicken> Well, most projects have a -devel.
<manchicken> kopete got boring for me because it was one program.
<manchicken> I get bored working on such an isolated codebase.
<ron_> i see, sorry for the interruption
<nixternal> hi hi
<manchicken> I'm not the world's greatest hacker, but I do enjoy variety.
<nixternal> I was in the wrong channel talking :)
<manchicken> heh
* Hobbsee likes people that come in and say "what can i do?"
<Hobbsee> then produce results soon after :)
<Lure> manchicken: we need people like you
<Tonio_> Riddell: very good point with manchicken is that he came to me asking what he could do for kubuntu
<manchicken> So naturally when I saw a neat opportunity to do C++/KDE/Qt hacking, and I just couldn't let that pass.
<Riddell> Hobbsee: it's the producing results bit that'
<Riddell> that's rare :)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yep!
<Tonio_> that happens very often, but the good thing is that he DID it ;)
<nixternal> you guys, be careful with manchicken!
<manchicken> heh
<Riddell> only 68 karma, that will probably go up by tomorrow morning :)
<Tonio_> manchicken: do you have ideas that you'd like to implement to adept in the future ? or will you stop with feisty spec implementation ?
<manchicken> Well, it's just nice to work with a project that I agree with both technically and for the most part in purpose as well.
<nixternal> Riddell: we all got owned by karma bug this week
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah, they cut the karma. and i was approaching 2 million, iirc.
<manchicken> Riddell: It was 762 or something like that yesterday ;)
<nixternal> I went from almost 2 million down to 7k
<Hobbsee> or more
<manchicken> Tonio_: I'm currently working on changelog support, and I'm considering looking into a Qt/KDE4 port soon.
<nixternal> I will tell you this, that karma bug makes me feel like I need to work harder :)
<manchicken> Tonio_: I like working in adept, but I would like to try out other things that need doing as well.
<Tonio_> manchicken: that's very good to hear :) consider working on the GUI please ^^
<Tonio_> so many people complain about the non-friendly UI
<Riddell> Tonio_: mornfall is working on a new version with the UI spec we did in paris
<manchicken> Tonio_: There are a lot of things that could use work.  It's a great program, I love using it.  Which just makes me even more tickled to work on it.
<manchicken> Tonio_: No such thing as perfect software.
<Tonio_> Riddell: ah ? cool ! I thought mornfall stoped with adept...
<Riddell> naw, just slowed
<manchicken> Tonio_: Naw, he gave me a branch the other day to look at.
<Tonio_> okay great
<manchicken> I should share that info.
<yuriy> good to know he's still working on it
<manchicken> Yeah.
<Riddell> manchicken get a +1 from me for enthusiasm and several very useful code contributions
<manchicken> I still have him review my changes.
<manchicken> heh
<allee> +1 , read only good things about him.
<Tonio_> same for me, +1
<Hobbsee> manchicken: +1, but i wanted to ask a questoin first
<manchicken> Wow, and nobody made fun of my name.  That was easy ;)
<Hobbsee> trying to remember what it was now
<Lure> manchicken: congrats!
* Hobbsee will wake up soon, really...
<allee> manchicken: we are tolerant (sometimes)
<manchicken> Hobbsee: I can answer questions iffen ya got 'em ^_^
<nixternal> congrats manchicken!
<Hobbsee> manchicken: do you find that you lack stuff to do, or that the list of specs is enough to find something interesting to work on?
<manchicken> Hobbsee: You've certainly answered plenty of mine.
<Hobbsee> :)
<manchicken> Well, I think my main limiting factor--like many free software hackers--is time.
<Hobbsee> of course, yes
<manchicken> Marriage, church, work, hacking.
<Riddell> so, congrats manchicken, you're a Kubuntu Member
<manchicken> In that order ^_^
<manchicken> Sweet.
<Jucato> wow, church :)
<allee> manchicken: congrats
<Hobbsee> manchicken: sounds sane
<nixternal> ya Jucato, we do that here in Chicago sometimes :)
<manchicken> I would like to work on more of the ideas though in the specs, and I do like having them mapped out for me already.
<Tonio_> welcome abouard manchicken
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-01
<Riddell> Jucato: ready to introduce yourself?
<Jucato> yep. My wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jucato
<Hobbsee> manchicken: cool - interested in speccing them out at all?
<manchicken> Hobbsee: So the answer to your question is I like working with others' ideas and I'm okay coming up with my own as well.
<Hobbsee> ie, would you be a candidate for coming to UDS
<Jucato> Hi! I'm Juan Carlos Torres from the Philippines. I've been using Linux and Kubuntu for a year now. My main contributions to the Kubuntu community so far has been user support in the forums and in IRC, some bug filing and triaging, and a few guides. I've also been involved with upstream KDE in the same areas (support, bug triaging, documentation). I'm currently self-studying programming (C++) and I'm interested in getting involved in the more
<Jucato> "technical" aspects of Kubuntu development.
<manchicken> I finally get jucato's name!
<Jucato> lol :)
<manchicken> Very clever.
<nixternal> haha
<Hobbsee> hehe
<Jucato> can't take credit for that name though. some crazy guys from college coined it. and it kinda stuck
* Hobbsee only figured that out when she first looked at the wiki page
* Hobbsee thought jucato was a proper name, before that...
<Jucato> heh :)
<manchicken> Jucato: You should take credit also for keeping #kubuntu in line.  Without you that channel would be nothing but flames.
* yuriy figured it out last night... or was practically explained it
<Jucato> yuriy: lol :)
<Riddell> Jucato: which do you think is more active for kubuntu users, ubuntuforums or kubuntuforums?
<Jucato> I think Kubuntu forums
<Jucato> I have feeds in akregator for both forums and monitor the amount of Kubuntu/KDE questions that come in and get answered
<manchicken> That's a great idea, never thought of that.
<Riddell> Jucato: are there enough people answering kubuntu questions in the forums?
* claydoh runs to add feeds....
<nixternal> Riddell: I have to agree, Kubuntuforums.net is the winner!
<gnomefreak> can someone ping me when we get to the patches from opensuse topic?
<Jucato> that's one part of the problem, imho KFN lacks in the number of knowledgeable users in some areas like hardware
<Riddell> gnomefreak: sure
<gnomefreak> ty
<Jucato> I mean, ubuntuforums enjoys the numbers and the bulk of the Ubuntu community
<Hobbsee> Jucato: would you be interested in gettign the kubuntu forums made official, and how would you go about doing that?
<Hobbsee> or is it better, in your opinion, to shove it all in ubuntuforums?
<Jucato> Yes, very much interested. But based on past events, there seemed to be some issues regarding that, coming from ubuntuforums
<Hobbsee> who's the admin of kubuntu forums?
<Jucato> I'd probably approach the Forum Council after I have talked with the KFN owner (Open Source)
<Riddell> doing that might get a bit political :)
<nixternal> Hobbsee: personally I would seperate for 1 reason, Kubuntu forums seems to take what they have and push it to the wiki, where as Ubuntu forums take it to 3 party documentation repos
<Jucato> yeah, that's what I'm afraid of...
<Hobbsee> Riddell: true, possibly.
<Jucato> claydoh will be there to help though :D
<Hobbsee> nixternal: neat :)
<claydoh> :D
<Riddell> Jucato: does kubuntu-ph do anything, or is it just a launchpad team?
<Hobbsee> Riddell: now if it was marketed as kubuntu-centric forums....
* Hobbsee continues to contemplate evilly....
<Jucato> Riddell: just a launchpad team. currently there's no reason to separate yet from ubuntu-ph
<Jucato> no practical reason, that is
<nixternal> no matter what you all think of Jucato :)  He is a damn good assett I must say. He tends to help out everywhere he can fit in and has even offered to learn some DocBook/XML which I need major help with
<Jucato> heh :)
<manchicken> And he's always there to help me google when I'm banging my head against a wall.  heh
<Hobbsee> hehe
<manchicken> Two googles are better than one.
<claydoh> I agree as well
<Riddell> Jucato: what sort of admin do you do in #kubuntu?
<Hobbsee> he actually watches it and responds, i suspect :P
<Jucato> Riddell: I'm just a new op, so not that much. just making reminders when people get offtopic or unruly
<Jucato> made a few kicks/bans, but I unban after 24 hours
<manchicken> heh
<Jucato> most of the time, though, I do support in #kubuntu (even when I should be studying...)
<Hobbsee> Jucato: you're following #ubuntu-ops, and the meeting yesterday presumably?
<n8k99_> Jucato is a pretty good traffic cop in #kubuntu
<Jucato> Hobbsee: yep :)
<manchicken> Yeah, he shuts me down quite frequently ;)
<Jucato> lol
<Hobbsee> manchicken: get a weapon like a Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  and you'll be fine :P
<Jucato> manchicken: hey I'm pretty lenient with you... I let you speak your mind. but keep an eye on you... :P
<manchicken> Well, what I like is that he actually explains WHY things are a problem.
<Tonio_> -1 for me that's better for your studies ^^
<Jucato> heh Tonio_ I'm just self-studying
<allee> Jucato gets+2  from me ;)
<manchicken> I never would have though of the reasons why he said it is important to stay on topic.
* n8k99_ inches slowly away from the stick
<Tonio_> Jucato: seriously, +1 for great support, wich is very important for the distro
* Hobbsee prods n8k99_ a few times with it
<Hobbsee> definetly a +1 from me
<Riddell> Jucato is +1 from me for doing much needed user support
<allee> yeah +1.  No doubt!
<Hobbsee> welcome to membership, Jucato!
<manchicken> It's important to have an op that'll explain why too much normal offtopic conversation may be disruptive.
<Jucato> thanks :)
<manchicken> +
<Tonio_> welcome aboard Jucato :)
<allee> congrats Jucato
<Jucato> yay!! :)
<n8k99_> Yay!
<Hawkwind> Congrats Jucato!!!!!!!!!!!
<claydoh> congrats Jucato!!
<manchicken> w00t@jucato
<Hobbsee> manchicken: indeed.   the op stuff is being redone, anyway.  and somehow i'm getting the most votes to being on the council, so far.  scary.
<Jucato> thanks!!! :)
<Riddell> any other memberships?
* Hobbsee doesnt know how that's happening
<yuriy> congrats Jucato and manchicken
<nixternal> congrats Jucato!!!
<Jucato> Hobbsee: I still haven't added my vote there :P
<Lure> congrats Jucato
<Hobbsee> Riddell: can i have admin access to the kubuntu-devel ML, btw.
<Hobbsee> it's a pain when my mail gets moderated.
<Hobbsee> and you're not around
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Kubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 16:00 UTC: Forum Council
<Hobbsee> also to kubuntu-members LP team, to decline some people who obviously arent interested still
<Riddell> Hobbsee: yes, although I don't know if you really want it, let's talk after
<Riddell> Lure: your item
<Hobbsee> Riddell: okay.
<Lure> Riddell: I though Tonio_ is first
* Hobbsee already moderates 1 ML.
<Riddell> oh yes, it's Tonio_
<Tonio_> yes, I'd like to rediscuss media patches inclusion for several reasons :
<Hobbsee> it's Tonio_, but it's me who wrote it on the agenda :P
<Tonio_> - They create lots of issues
<Tonio_> - they differ a lot from the standard kde, which makes it hard for users to get support on the web
<Hobbsee> these are the media:/ to /media ones, presumably?
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: yes
<Tonio_> the point is that they create lots of problems, see bugs 70217, 78811, 61946, 82094, 70796
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 70217 in kdebase "KubuntuKDEMedia changes: wrong desktop icons of removable devices plugged before login" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/70217
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 78811 in kdebase "CAN'T UMOUNT REMOVABLE MEDIA (dup-of: 70217)" [Undecided,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/78811
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 70217 in kdebase "KubuntuKDEMedia changes: wrong desktop icons of removable devices plugged before login" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/70217
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 61946 in kdebase "[Edgy Data Loss]  umount progress dialog missing" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/61946
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 82094 in kubuntu-meta "USB safe unmount from desktop data corruption (dup-of: 61946)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/82094
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 61946 in kdebase "[Edgy Data Loss]  umount progress dialog missing" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/61946
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 70796 in kdebase "KDE storage media applet not showing unmounted removable mediums" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/70796
<Tonio_> sorry for this :)
<Riddell> isn't "umount progress dialog missing" a problem in upstream KDE too?
<Hobbsee> i didnt think the edgy data loss was due to that
<Tonio_> also, even if that's not reported on launchpad, we get crappy icon names on the desktop
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah it is, but they all mount their removable media as sync
<Tonio_> Riddell: oups true, you're right on that point
<Hobbsee> yuriy: should be able to give us more bugs on it, most likely
<Lure> Tonio_: not all of these are media patches issues
<Lure> Tonio_: umount is problem in kde > 3.5.2
<Tonio_> in the list of problems, tou also have issues using qtparted for example, since you cannot graphically unmount the disk to format it
<Riddell> which disk?
<Tonio_> Lure: how to unmount a usb key on kubuntu ? no way
<Tonio_> Riddell: a usb key for example
<Riddell> right click -> "Safely Remove" ?
<Tonio_> the right-click/unmount media option misses, which is a pure pain in some cases
<yuriy> hmm? Tonio_ got all the ones i've seen.  Bug 32159 has the problems that come up without the patches (but that's pre-dapper, maybe things have improved upstream?)
<Lure> Tonio_: Safely remove
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 32159 in kdebase "system:// protocol" [Medium,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/32159
<allee> Tonio_: what's your advise: media needs some work, or, getter get rid of it?   media:/ had also lots of issues
<Tonio_> Riddell: remove removes the media, doesn't unmount
<Tonio_> Riddell: the difference is that the media doesn't appear in qtparted for example
* Lure thinks media patches are better than default media:/
<Tonio_> allee: yeah I know, media:/ issues with gtk apps
<allee> Tonio_: and KDE apps as well :(
<Lure> allee: +1
<Tonio_> allee: not that much really, it is just a matter of patching a desktop file most of the time
<allee> has anyone free time slots to work on media?
<Tonio_> very few issues with kde apps
<yuriy> here's another one not so much caused by, but just an incompleteness in the patches: bug 72279
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 72279 in openoffice.org "Save as still using media:/ kio instead of true path" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/72279
<Tonio_> allee: but to me, for example, going to /media to browse an audio cd and get a blank page..... that's really evil
<allee> Tonio_: yeah, that most anoying  (plus mounting when 'do nothing' is selected
<yuriy> some of the issues that used to come up with kde apps (like kaffeine) have been fixed since dapper as well
<Riddell> Tonio_: have you spoken to sime about this?
<Tonio_> allee: yes, that too, and the point of not beeing able to "unmount" is a nightmare for qtparted
<Tonio_> Riddell: yes, but that's really very hard to fix according to him
<Tonio_> Riddell: that's the reason the desktop icon still uses audiocd:/
<allee> Tonio_: I would like that media open media:/  but clicking on an icon in media:/ emits the tranlated path.   but that's not easily possible
<Tonio_> it was like impossible to map audiocd:/ to /media/cdrom
<Tonio_> and also the names on the desktop are a bit crappy
<Tonio_> "disk" on a french desktop is worse than the standard "Removable Media 256 MB"
<Tonio_> on an english desktop orry
<Tonio_> so in my opinion, as feisty is the latest kde 3 release
<PupUserfaa491> hey any girls in here? prolly not eh
<allee> Mhmm, anyone knowing the involed code?  Is it realistic to get these issues fixed?
<Tonio_> so presumably the latest stable version before feisty+2, we should improve the patches on remove them
<Lure> allee: I suspect only Sime for now
<Riddell> PupUserfaa491: don't disturb the meeting
<PupUserfaa491> ridell u should suck my cock u fagget
<Jucato> hm?
<Tonio_> can someone kick that asshole please ?
<manchicken> Wow.
<manchicken> What a prick.
<Lure> Jucato: where are you ops rights
<Hobbsee> i dont have ops
<PupUserfaa491> wow thats the most excitment ive seen inhere
<Jucato> Lure: only in #kubuntu and -ops
<PupUserfaa491> u siad asshole
<PupUserfaa491> ur a bad person
<Hobbsee> !ops
<manchicken> Nice.
<manchicken> What a class act.
<Tonio_> I love the "ignore" functionnality of irc
<illovae> ohayo :)
<Hobbsee> nalioth: PupUserfaa491
<yuriy> g2g dinner
<PupUserfaa491> it 3 o clock u fag
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b *!*@d205-250-245-108.bchsia.telus.net]  by nalioth
* PupUserfaa491 was kicked off #ubuntu-meeting by nalioth (nalioth)
<Hobbsee> thanks mate
<Jucato> thanks
<manchicken> Much thanks ^_^
<yuriy> wow
<Tonio_> so that's my opinion concerning the patches, very interesting to test for edgy
* Hobbsee apologises - boss called.
<Tonio_> but really not mature enough for a stable release, so to be improved or temporary removed
* Hobbsee reads the backscroll
<Riddell> Tonio_: I'm entirely undecided on the media patch question
<Lure> Tonio_: can we get a list of issues grouped together on wiki page and prioritize them?
<Tonio_> since they create as many issues as fixed problems
<Riddell> seems like it creates problems and fixes them
<Tonio_> Riddell: yes that's the point
<Tonio_> Riddell: but standard kde problems are well known, it is easy to find a solution over the net
<Tonio_> the kubuntu specific issues aren't
<Riddell> Lure: but would anyone fix them?
<Tonio_> that's the point
<Lure> Riddell: we need to talk with SIme_, I am also willing to look into it after FF
<Tonio_> Lure, Riddell: I'll try to make a list of all known problems, categorized by importance, and fixed issues
<Lure> Riddell: for me it would be a step back if we remove it
<Tonio_> then we'll balance and make a decision next meeting, okay ?
<Tonio_> Lure: hum, there is too much to do on those patches for feisty
<Lure> Tonio_: fine with me - we can drop them anytime until Beta I suppose
<Riddell> ok, procrastinate while you two look at the issues
<Riddell> thanks Lure, Tonio_
<Tonio_> Lure: lots of users are complaning they have to rebuild kdebase without the patches since lots of multimedia related things don't work for them
<allee> great
<Tonio_> that's a pitty
<Riddell> manchicken: your item
<Hobbsee> fortunately, this should be fixed in kde4 anyway
<manchicken> yup
* Tonio_ back in 5 minutes
<manchicken> Tonio_: I had to build amarok for that reason
<manchicken> Okay, so I've been thinking of several different ways to do changelogs in adept.
<manchicken> I had a couple ideas.
<manchicken> I could take a copout and open it in kedit/kate/registered-text/plan-editor...
<manchicken> I could display a dialog with a disabled line text widget.
<manchicken> I could make it one big label
<manchicken> I could go on and on.
<manchicken> I think it's obvious to figure out which is the easiest, but I wanted some more ideas.
<manchicken> Because 2 and 3 are the same idea essentially.
<Riddell> my preference is for whatever synaptic does :)
<manchicken> And I'm not okay with only 2 options.
<manchicken> What?  You want me to use synaptic? ;)
<manchicken> I guess I'll have to install it.
<Riddell> no no, but since we're copying their feature may as well copy the UI too
<manchicken> I've never used synaptic.
<Jucato> heh :)
<manchicken> Adept and apt-get CLI meet my needs, so I'll have to research that.
<Riddell> for adpet-updater it shouldn't show the whole changelog, only the changes since the currently installed version
<manchicken> If anybody else had any other ideas, I'm more than interested in hearing them.
<manchicken> Right.
<manchicken> changelogs.ubuntu has different files for each version.
<manchicken> I haven't combed them yet, but I suspect that they're actually specific to the version.
<Riddell> another point is that the changelogs aren't user focused, they are developer focused, so it should be marked as "Developer Changes", not just "Changes"
<claydoh> good point
<manchicken> Ah.
<manchicken> That's good.
<manchicken> I'll need to make sure I'm keeping my audience in mind.
<manchicken> It'd be neat if we had the ability to have before and after screenshots for when we have UI changes.
<Riddell> and I'd go for a non-editable qtextedit
<Jucato> although some users are curious about what's the update about, I doubt they'd easily understand that changelogs anyway
<allee> manchicken: and they are writen in english
<manchicken> allee: Is kbabel too terrible to work with that?
<Riddell> we get a lot of requests for changelogs in adept_updater
<manchicken> Yeah, it's something I've wanted.
<Lure> Jucato: the ones in -updates might be useful - SRU requires more descriptive changelogs
<Riddell> I can't see any easy way to do translations on them
<allee> manchicken: never tries.  With all the slang I don't expect much
<Jucato> Lure: ah nice to know that :)
<manchicken> allee: True.
<Lure> allee: ;-)
<manchicken> It would be nice if we had a group of people who helped with that, but that task would be quite daunting.
<Hobbsee> as long as you can copy from the changelogs
<manchicken> Yeah, I can.
<manchicken> I already have code in place to give me the proper location for the changelog.
<Hobbsee> ie, as long as the user can, from within adept/adept_updater
<Riddell> manchicken: ok to move on?
<manchicken> Well, the way adept is designed if it works in one, it'll work in all.
<manchicken> Riddell: Sure.  I'm satisfied ^_^
<manchicken> s/it'll work/it can work/
<allee> mhmm, 2 are two use cases:  security updates.  text is technical but understandable.   b)  installs software or new upstream version: then the upstream changelog/NEWS is much more interesting
<Riddell> Lure: your item
<Lure> I just wanted to check what are the plans for some flagship KDE apps for feisty: k3b, digikam, amarok, konversation
<Lure> some of them have planned releases soon and we should know if we can fit them in feisty schedule
<Riddell> konversation should be in sync with our release schedule again
<Lure> and if anybody is working on prerelease packages
<Tonio_> Lure: I'll probably do k3b
<Riddell> k3b trueg has promised me to have a schedule by feature freeze, if 1.0 isn't out in time he doesn't want us to use release candidates
<Lure> Riddell: good, digikam 0.9.1 was supposed to be, but will be a bit late now
<Lure> Tonio_: seaLne is already working on k3b
<Tonio_> Lure: yeah just saw that, so let's go with this
<Lure> my concern is that new apps also have new depends and those might require MIR
<Tonio_> Lure: I'll have to test the kdesktop implementation
<Riddell> hmm, amarok needing a new libgpod isn't good
<Riddell> but it's out next week isn't it?  so should be do-able
<Tonio_> Lure: I didn't receive any response for the patch we did
<Lure> Riddell: kipi-plugins also need new libgpod
<Hobbsee> Lure: amarok's doing imbrandon.  er, other way around.
<manchicken> Is amarok going to have libmtp by default?
<Riddell> Lure: why does kipi-plugins use libgpod?
<Lure> Riddell: and digikam 0.9.1 needs new package (libkexiv2)
<Lure> Riddell: yes
* Hobbsee thought konversation wasnt going to be out in time?
<Riddell> manchicken: already does
<allee> Riddell: for the new ipodexport plugin
<Lure> Riddell: for video/photo export to iPod
<manchicken> Riddell: Let me guess... in feisty? ;)
<Jucato> Hobbsee: I'll ask Sho_ about it
* Hobbsee just did
<allee> I've downloaded today the libgpod 0.4.2 that are currently stuck in debian NEW.  Good candidate for a -0ubuntu1 version
<Jucato> just saw :)
<Riddell> Lure: I think if digikam needs new libkexif that's OK, there's nothing else major depending on it
<Lure> Riddell: do we need to push rc/beta versions in archive before FF in order to each upgrade to released version later
<Hobbsee> allee: the sources are already in ubuntu
<Hobbsee> of libgpod 0.4.2
<Lure> or should we hope to get UVF exception
<Hobbsee> right, couple of weeks is konversation
<Lure> Hobbsee: really?
<Riddell> Lure: best to just get an UVF I think
<Lure> Riddell: ok, might be tough to get them...
<Mithrandir> Lure: getting UVFs is easy enough assuming that you have a sensible plan
<allee> Riddell: not libkexif (no longer used) a new (not yet releases lib) libkexiv2.    next kipi-plugins (far away), digikam 0.9.1 and next showimg release will use it
<Lure> Mithrandir: even if they add features?
<Hobbsee> msarah@LongPointyStick:~$ madison libgpod
<Hobbsee>    libgpod | 0.4.2-0ubuntu1 | http://mirror.pacific.net.au feisty/main Sources
<Hobbsee>    libgpod | 0.4.2-0ubuntu1 | http://archive.ubuntu.com feisty/main Sources
<Hobbsee> Lure: yep
<Lure> Hobbsee: great
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: including "upstream wont release earlier, it's mostly bugfixes?"
<Mithrandir> Lure: feature freeze refers to internal development, not external.
<Riddell> allee: oh, well in that case it can't break anything else :)
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: yes, if upstream is working together with us to make sure we have something good for feisty, that's fine.
<Tonio_> Riddell: concerning digikam, what is the ubuntu way to do for a new version of a lib ?
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: excellent.  they are.
<Lure> Mithrandir: ok, good to know - so we just need to ensure that it is very stable upload
<allee> is exiv2 already in main?
<Tonio_> Riddell: from revu to universe, then main inclusion report etc ... ?
<Mithrandir> I'd like you to mail ubuntu-devel about this beforehand, though, not assume that all is good in the end.
<Mithrandir> allee: yse.
<Mithrandir> yes, even
<Lure> allee: yes
<Tonio_> or is that directly uploadable as previous version is already in the repos ?
<allee> good
<Tonio_> allee: no we just have libkexif1
<Lure> Mithrandir: fine, you cannot expect 100% accetance always
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: as in now, or when it releases?
<allee> libkexif1 is dead
<allee> will be replaced by libkexiv2
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: a plan nowish would be good.
<Tonio_> allee: I know, but I wanted to know what is the way to get it in....
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: okay
<Mithrandir> (so not necessarily today, but before FF)
<Hobbsee> !schedule
<Riddell> Lure: fancy doing that e-mail then?
<Riddell> or anyone else..
<Lure> Riddell, Mithrandir: so just a list of apps with depends that we plan to include after FF?
<Riddell> Lure: and expected release dates
<Mithrandir> Lure: and preferably links to the discussion with upstream where they agree to work with you, and release dates, yes.
<Lure> Riddell: will try to collect this on wiki so that everybody can contribute
<Tonio_> allee: we should first get libkexiv2 in the archives
<allee> Tonio_: well, first we need a tarball ;)
<Mithrandir> estimates are fine, but please try to make them as precise as possible.
<Tonio_> allee: isn't it released ?
<allee> Tonio_: released tarball I mean.
<Lure> Mithrandir: ok, will do - thanks
<Hobbsee> i'll do the konversation related email
<allee> Tonio_: no.  still discussing API
<Tonio_> allee: hehe okay :)
<Lure> Hobbsee: thanks, I will do digikam with allee and k3b is handled by seaLne
<allee> Tonio_: I assume it will be release together with digikam 0.9.1-beta1
<Lure> Hobbsee: is imbrandon still taking care of amarok?
<Hobbsee> Lure: he is, but i'll do it if he doesnt.
<Tonio_> Lure: I don't think so.....
<Hobbsee> Lure: he's very busy at work.  he said he'd do it though
<Hobbsee> if not, i'll do it again
<manchicken> Riddell: I'd like to talk process too if we get time at the end of the meeting.
<manchicken> Just recognizing some keywords that bring questions to mind ^_^
<Riddell> manchicken: ok
<Lure> ok, let's do it over wiki so everybody can contribute and jump in, then we will send e-mail
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: I'll ping sealne concerning k3b since there are scripts and other things to test for the multimedia spec
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: cool
<Riddell> Lure: your item next
<Lure> We have two SRU for edgy in -proposed: not sure if anybody is testing them
<Riddell> good thing manchicken is still on edgy
<manchicken> heh
<Riddell> Lure: have you poked #kubuntu-testers?  there's usually edgy people in there willing to try stuff
<manchicken> I can run some cases ^_^
<Lure> people on edgy would need to enable -proposed repository and report back
<Lure> Riddell: did not know that this exists - is this what mhb started?
<Tonio_> Lure: I emailed Simon concerning this, no response yet
<Riddell> Lure: it is yes
<Lure> Riddell: ok, then I will ping him when around
<Riddell> and talking of SRU, we should look at fixing qt for scribus in dapper and/or edgy
<Tonio_> Lure: also we have to prepare SRU for knetworkmanager and kdebase, but well if it takes 2 month to get them released.....
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: feisty will be out quicker :P
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: that's the problem :)
<Lure> Tonio_: I know, those two were stuck for long
<Riddell> Tonio_: with new archive admins it should be much faster than that
<Tonio_> Riddell: I hope so....
<Lure> Tonio_: but I think pitti is now on archive too, so it is speeding up
<Riddell> Lure: so, ping #kubuntu-testers, and ask on kubuntu-devel mailing list too
<Tonio_> 2006-11-28, that's the date I wrote the digikam SRU.....
<Riddell> Lure: also #ubuntu-bugs is ment to be there for SRUs
<Lure> Riddell: will do
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: can you give back libgpod on all arches please?
<Riddell> Lure: oh and Canonical has a new KDE using QA dude!
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yay!
<Lure> Riddell: true, but we need kubuntu guys
<Riddell> Lure: so ping bdmurray too
<Lure> Riddell: what is huis nick?
<Riddell> ^^
<Lure> ok, nice to know
<Hobbsee> right, libgpod is sitting in depwait.
<Riddell> Lure: ok, your item next again
<Lure> I just wanted to check remaining features we want to sneak before FF
<Riddell> I'm working on software-properties for the new sources.list editor
<Riddell> seems to be going well
<Lure> I still plan to do laptop keys for suspend/hibernate; not sure what is the status of ksynaptic inclusion?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Feb 21:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | 13 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<Lure> Tonio_: ?
<Riddell> and mvo has merged the dist-upgrader and will upload after Herd
<Tonio_> Lure: I patched it to use systemsettings
<Riddell> we can't include ksynaptics in main, it needs manual changes to the xorg.conf file
<Tonio_> Lure: no way to get main inclusion on that point since requires touching xorg.conf
<Lure> Tonio_: so will we MIR and ship it?
<Lure> ok, so will write in spec the status
<Tonio_> Lure: no, but it'll go cleanly in systemsettings when installed
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: did you push those changes to debian as well?
<Riddell> nixternal: how are the docs?
<Hobbsee> fabo maintains it.
<Riddell> nixternal: when is doc freeze?
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: not at the moment since that requires systemsettings patches...
<Lure> I had plans to include networkstatus from suse, but am lacking time before FF
<Lure> so if anybody would take this over, I would be very happy
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: ahh, okay
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: once the patches will be officially released, then I will do
<Riddell> Lure: networkstatus being the kdepim patch?
<Hobbsee> Lure: FF != to new package freeze, is it?
<Tonio_> Riddell: + kopete and knetworkmanager
<Lure> Riddell: yep: kded module + kdepim patch
<manchicken> One thing that gets me about all of those is that not all of them work well.  networkmanager doesn't seem to work for me under kubuntu but it did under suse.
<Riddell> Hobbsee: no
<manchicken> I have to use wifi-radar these days... which actually works quite well.
<Riddell> manchicken: delete your /etc/network/interfaces :)
<Lure> Hobbsee: no, but we should not be implementing new features anymore
<Lure> and adding bunch of code to kded is not perfect thing to do late
<Hobbsee> Lure: true
<Hobbsee> if it fails, pull it :P
<Riddell> Lure: would be a shame not to have networkstatus patches, but I don't have time either
<Tonio_> Riddell: I can do that
<Riddell> Tonio_: yay!
<Lure> Riddell: I was waiting for 3.5.6
<Tonio_> Lure: want me to do it ?
<Lure> Tonio_: that would be great - I can help you though
<Tonio_> Lure: sure
<Lure> Tonio_: http://software.opensuse.org/download/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_10.2/src/ is the starting point
<Lure> Tonio_: they have it in kdepim (networkstatus dir)
<Tonio_> Lure: Yes, I have that link. I'll work on that once I fixed kcontrol
<Lure> Tonio_: the rest we can talk offline in next days
<Riddell> Tonio_: kcontrol is a bug, it can wait until after FF
<Lure> The other thing is zeroconf/avahi: is anybody testing this config?
<Tonio_> Riddell: hum true, so I'll work on that starting tomorrow :)
<Lure> it looks like they have great success in ubuntu/gnome and I would not like we are behind
<Riddell> Lure: works for me
<allee> manchicken: check README.Debian from network-manager and compare with our /etc/network/interfaces
<Hobbsee> oh, kbluetooth only works when you run it as root
<Lure> Riddell: should we remove zeroconf config then ? ;-)
<manchicken> allee: Eh, I could... but wifi-radar is so nice.
<Riddell> Lure: we should probably remove the edgy patch to it
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: hu ? works for me
<Hobbsee> i still couldnt get it to fully work, but that may well be a case of PEBKAC
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: it was trying to write to /tmp or something, not really sure
<manchicken> Simple, no system service...
<Lure> Riddell: what about printer browsing/sharing: do we need to change anything there?
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: lemme test right now :)
<Riddell> Lure: I've not looked at that actually
<Riddell> Lure: but it should just work if it's on by default
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: works perfectly here
<Lure> Riddell: yep, problem is that if nobody tested, we will not know until the release...
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: okay, cool.  pebkac error then :)
<Lure> ok, anyhow those are probably easy to remove anytime (just some .desktop files or simple patches)
<Lure> and I have seen that mhb already prepared MIR for polyester that kwwii mentions that might be default for feisty
* Lure is done with his agenda points ;-)
<Riddell> I don't think he's added it to the MainInclusionQueue though
<Lure> Riddell: it is still subpage on his personal page
<Riddell> oh, tsk
<Lure> Riddell: it needs review from core-dev's
<Riddell> ok, I'll sort that out
<Riddell> it needs review from pitti
<Lure> Riddell: finally yet, but kubuntu core-dev's before that ;-)
<Lure> s/yet/that/
<Riddell> manchicken: you had an agenda point?
<Riddell> oh, gnomefreak we were ment to ping you
<gnomefreak> ive been watching
* manchicken yields...
<gnomefreak> ty
<Riddell> manchicken: go
<manchicken> np
<manchicken> which should I do?  go?
<Hobbsee> Lure: when will you go for core?
<Lure> Hobbsee: I need to go for MOTU ;-)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: afte
<Riddell> blah
<Riddell> manchicken: go go!
<manchicken> Yeah... so the word I keep seeing is "sprint."  Are we actually implementing an "official" scrum or agile process/
<Hobbsee> Lure: you could have done that yesterday :P
<manchicken> Or am I just imagining things?
<Riddell> manchicken: a sprint is a focused real-world developer meeting
<Hobbsee> hrm?
* Hobbsee doesnt follow football
<gnomefreak> sprint week is over isnt it?
<Hobbsee> real world?  what's that :P
<Riddell> canonical's distro team had one last week in Oslo
<manchicken> Ah.
<Lure> manchicken: they use some concepts from agile development, yes
<manchicken> Okay.  So we're thinking something different.
<Lure> manchicken: but not to it's full
<manchicken> Are there any plans to host one of these in the US?
<manchicken> I can't really make it to Oslo or Scottland.
<manchicken> heh
<Lure> manchicken: they need face-to-face sprints to do major breaktroughs
<Riddell> unlikely, most of canonoical's distro team are in Europe
<manchicken> There's the whole matter of the Atlantic Ocean and expensive airfare.
<Lure> manchicken: there was UDS in MtView
<Riddell> but the last UDS was in the US
<Hobbsee> anyone planning to go to UDS in spain, btw?
<manchicken> Interesting.
<Lure> Lure, Tonio_, imbrandon were there
<Riddell> manchicken: there is sponsorship for a limited number of people to get to UDSs
<manchicken> If at any time anybody's interested in throwing one of those parties in the US, let me know.
<Riddell> manchicken: there's the ubuntucon thing at google soon
<Riddell> oh and, ubuntu live
<manchicken> I'm planning on starting a group here in chicago for the purpose of hacking kubuntu.
<Lure> oh, we missed this item: New kicker design -- Tonio
<n8k99_> Ubucon is feb 16 in New York
<manchicken> Wow.  How did I miss that?  I googled for hours trying to see if there was something like that going on in the US.
* Riddell presses F5
<manchicken> I only found historical accounts.
* Hobbsee met leslie recently, that was fun :)
<Tonio_> Lure: yes I just added it
<n8k99_> get your flyer here http://eckenrodehouse.net/kubuntu/flyer1-1.pdf
<Riddell> manchicken: I assume http://www.ubuntulive.com/ is public now
<manchicken> Nice.
<Tonio_> okay, I discussed rencently about that on kubuntu-devel, and people seem to appreciate that new kicker design :
<Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture15.png
<manchicken> Sweet, they've got one in July that I may be able to go to.
<Tonio_> here is the idea :
<Jucato> hm.. not found?
<Lure> 404
<Riddell> n8k99_: looks fun
<manchicken> Though I still think a frequently-mmeeting local team may be more productive.
<manchicken> Okay, that concludes my interruptions for the evening.
<Tonio_> http://tonio.homelinux.org/temp/capture11.png
<n8k99_> thanks Riddell
<Lure> Tonio_: what is delta
<Tonio_> the idea is that LOTS of people don't know the application launcher thing, and all of them love it when they discover that exists
* Lure not using standar kicker
<Hobbsee> ah yes, the new kicker :)
<Tonio_> Lure: delta is adding the "desktop" icon, and make usage of the application launcher applet
<Riddell> Tonio_: so adding app launcher and desktops down to two?
<Tonio_> yes
<Riddell> meh, /me not a fan of desktop icon for some reason
<Lure> Tonio_: I would agree that 2 desktops is good default
<Tonio_> Riddell: Hobbsee for example didn't even knew that was possible in kde
<Jucato> +Show Desktop applet, +Quick Launcher -2 Virtual desktops
<Lure> Riddell: +1 on desktop icon
<Hobbsee> Riddell: that's because you dont use anything apart from a konsole, right?  you dont need to get to the desktop
<Tonio_> Riddell: I don't use the desktop one too, but that's very usefull for non-geeks
<Hobbsee> truth be told, i tend to switch to a different desktop, instead of hitting show desktop, then go back to the previous one
<Lure> Hobbsee: lol
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: i did know it existed.  didnt know the black magic to invoke to get it though :P
<Tonio_> the idea of the app launcher is more to introduce the user to that functionnality in fact
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: that's a very common problem, everyone loves that when they know it exists
<Lure> Tonio_: yep, it makes sense - what apps do we put in my default?
<Riddell> Hobbsee: it's because I think icons on the desktop are a crazy idea in general
<Lure> s/my/by/
* Lure needs sleep
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: the 4 apps I had are a base, we can provide 6 links, or remove kopete for another one, that's to be decided
<Lure> Riddell: not really - I use it for all the crap to be removed soon ;-)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: yeah.  on that subejct, i still dislike the trash being on the kicker :P
* Hobbsee likes seeing her desktop pic :P
<Hobbsee> Tonio_: yep
<Jucato> +1 Hobbsee (on trash)
<Riddell> Hobbsee: tough luck, that's a sabdfl rule :)
<Hobbsee> Riddell: darn :(
<Jucato> ooh
<Jucato> no going against sabdfl :)
<Riddell> and it's the right place for it anyway IMO
<Tonio_> Hobbsee: that's why I let that in hehe :)
<Lure> Hobbsee: but is better there than having it on desktop, isn't it?
<Tonio_> so how about the global feeling concerning that kicker design ?
<Riddell> Tonio_: I'd swap desktop and system-menu there to keep things consistent
<Hobbsee> Lure: not overly.  depends.  is the kicker space more used than the desktop?
<Tonio_> Riddell: okay I can do that
<Riddell> Tonio_: otherwise, seems interesting
<claydoh> my kicker is surprisingly similar: no quicklauncher, 2 desktops plus FF and tbird icon for the mrs
<Jucato> claydoh: what's so similar about having using non-KDE apps? :P
<claydoh> :P
<Tonio_> Riddell: we can do a test implementation in kds and get people feedback
<Hobbsee> OW!!!
<Lure> Tonio_: I am just thinking if desktop and system icons should be on quick launcher (same size)
<Tonio_> that can be changed anytime very easilly, so....
<Tonio_> Lure: that's not possible
<claydoh> Jucato: the overall layout
<Jucato> claydoh: aah :P
<Lure> Tonio_: can we have them same size?
<Tonio_> Lure: you'd like the applauncher to use big icons ?
<Riddell> Tonio_: doesn't seem to be any objections, let's do it and see what the masses say
* Lure has no clue as he uses small kicker anyhow
* claydoh tires of using a tramsparent kicker tho, esp. with random wallpaers
<Tonio_> Lure: well on the default kicker size, that'll be a problem :)
<Lure> Tonio_: no, desktop and system using small icons
<Hobbsee> uh oh, i'm bleeding, brb
* allee would prefer same icon size too
<Tonio_> Lure: okay so no that's not possible
<Tonio_> Lure: those are separate applets, they just fit kicker's height
<Lure> Tonio_: then I would think all large would be better
<Riddell> Tonio_: you have quick launcher icons at 22 there?
<Tonio_> Riddell: yep
<Riddell> groovy
<Lure> Tonio_: it would also differentiate well from systray icons
<Tonio_> Riddell: well that's just the "auto" mode
<Lure> that Riddell hates as well ;-)
<Hobbsee> note to self:  stapling oneself is BAD!
<Tonio_> Lure: all large is a nonsense
<Tonio_> I generally use at least 10 icons with the app launcher
<Tonio_> that would use all of the kicker size
<Lure> Tonio_: that is you
<Lure> Tonio_: most people have 3-5 apps
<Tonio_> Lure: yes, but that's the idea of an app launcher :)
<allee> Tonio_: most people won't (I guess)
<Lure> Tonio_: and you and me know to change default
<Tonio_> Lure: with smal resol (1024) that would take too much space too
<Lure> ;-)
<Lure> Tonio_: that is good point
* Lure has 145 dpi screen and still using small icons only ;-)
<Tonio_> Lure: well we can make tests, but I think 22 icons is the good size
<Lure> Tonio_: yep, just do it and we will hear complaints/praises
<Riddell> 22 is the max having two lines
<Tonio_> Riddell: didn't you had a heart attack looking at my systray ? I "love" systray icons :)
<Riddell> Tonio_: I have a heart attack whenever I look at my own systray
<Jucato> heh :)
<Tonio_> Riddell: lol
<Hobbsee> heh
<Riddell> we're at 5 by default now!
* n8k99_ hides many items that are in the system tray
<Hobbsee> Riddell: you could just get rid of it :P
<Riddell> we add 1 a release
<ogra> screens grow as well :)
<n8k99_> you could get rid of the taskbar too
<Lure> Riddell: agreed - we are progressing on a slow pace here ;-)
<Hobbsee> ogra: *grin*
<Tonio_> Riddell: the problem isn't systray icons, it is the way the kicker applets deals with them
<Tonio_> windows is way better on that point
<Tonio_> way better.....
<Lure> Tonio_: +1
<Jucato> hiding systray icons...
<Riddell> hmm, well, hmm
<Riddell> anyway, any other business?
<Riddell> or memberships?
<Tonio_> Jucato: on windows you can select the icons you always want on the screen and the ones that are hidden
<Tonio_> the hidden icons appear when you just click on a little arrow on the right of the sysray
<Jucato> Tonio_: kicker has that.. but the arrow icon is too large
<Tonio_> that's very nice
<Tonio_> Jucato: not talking about the kicker arrow, but about a systray applet arrow
<Jucato> I meant, the system tray applet for kicker
<Tonio_> I yes it has !!!!!!!!
<Tonio_> that's cool
<Riddell> ok, meeting over, thanks all
<Hobbsee> Riddell: just generally taking over the world
<Tonio_> we should be able to change the arrow size no ?
<Hobbsee> :P
<Riddell> discussion -> #kubuntu-devel
<Hobbsee> yay, in under 2 hours :D
<Jucato> hehe nice
<Tonio_> Riddell: interesting thing concerning the systray, you might like
<Lure> good nite everybody!
<Tonio_> Riddell: we'll have to rediscuss this :)
<Tonio_> good night lure
<allee> nite lure
<Jucato> g'nite Lure
<rraphink> @schedule paris
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 01 Feb 22:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 21:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 17:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 21:00: Technical Board
<sid> @schedule New_York
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 01 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 15:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 11:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 15:00: Technical Board
<gnomefreak> @schedule new_york
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/New_York: 01 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 15:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 07:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 11:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 15:00: Technical Board
<Commander-Crowe> when is the next meeting?
<Adri2000> Commander-Crowe: /topic
<apokryphos> @schedule London
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/London: 01 Feb 21:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 20:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 16:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 16:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 20:00: Technical Board
<Commander-Crowe> @schedule San Jose, Ca
<Commander-Crowe> @schedule San Deigo, Ca
<apokryphos> valid timezone calls: http://bots.ubuntulinux.nl/timezones.html
<Commander-Crowe> @schedule Los Angeles
<apokryphos> you need the underscore in there
<Adri2000> @schedule Los_Angeles
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Los_Angeles: 01 Feb 13:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 12:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 04:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 08:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 12:00: Technical Board
<Commander-Crowe> ah
<Commander-Crowe> someone could've said "its 20 mins from now"
<Commander-Crowe> :P
<apokryphos> but then you wouldn't have discovered that excellent feature ;-)
<Seveas> Commander-Crowe, someone can say that
<Seveas> @now los_angeles
<Ubugtu> Current time in America/Los_Angeles: February 01 2007, 12:41:57 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 18 minutes
<Commander-Crowe> haha
<Commander-Crowe> nice
<Commander-Crowe> what are the rules during the meeting? like I'm not a developer(but i want to help)
<dholbach> Commander-Crowe: this is the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070201
<dholbach> it'll be quite fast-paced, I reckon
<Seveas> yeah
<Seveas> Commander-Crowe, these meetings are not th ones to attend when you want to get involved with Ubuntu, you better poke the MOTU for a while if you want to do packaging
<Commander-Crowe> ah
<Commander-Crowe> whats roll call?
<Commander-Crowe> well
<Commander-Crowe> I'm more of an art work/documentaion guy until I get better at C/C++
<BenC> that's the sad part about doc people...they end up moving on to being tech people :)
<kylem> heya Ben.
<BenC> and we know tech people never write docs
<BenC> hey kyle
<Commander-Crowe> haha
<Commander-Crowe> In Xubuntu I'm almost always working as techie, not that it intentional
<Seveas> Commander-Crowe, then contact docteam or artteam :)
<Commander-Crowe> ok
<Seveas> docteam can alwaus use volunteers
<Commander-Crowe> so they say
<Commander-Crowe> although I can never find them
<apokryphos> Commander-Crowe: #ubuntu-doc
<Commander-Crowe> I'll add that to the autojoin list
<Seveas> Commander-Crowe, and http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc
<mdz> good evening, all
<Commander-Crowe> good afternoon
<BenC> hey mdz
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | 13 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<dholbach> hi mdz
<pitti> hey mdz
<Commander-Crowe> @now los_angeles
<Ubugtu> Current time in America/Los_Angeles: February 01 2007, 12:54:39 - Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team
<Mithrandir> mdz: are we going to do the usual paste or something else this time around?
<dholbach> shouldn't everybody have read the agenda before? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070201
<BenC> Mithrandir: I think the idea of the agenda was to avoid it
<dholbach> not sure if pasting still makes sense then
<Keybuk> we're not doing the pasting afaik
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> I won't prepare one, then. :-)
<mdz> Mithrandir: no pasting
<Keybuk> mdz: are you going to drive?
<mdz> sure
<mdz> just getting set up
<mc44> wow crazy new format. How exciting :)
<mdz> roll call?
<mvo> hello
<ogra_> oh, damned, new format ...
<mdz> if you arrived or spoke in the past 10 minutes, I've got you; otherwise, please let me know you're here
<Riddell> hi all
<kwwii> howdy
<kylem> yo.
<bdmurray> here
<Keybuk> here
<iwj> So let's see how quickly we can manage this :-).
<sfllaw> cjwatson: I added a link to DevelTeamMeetings on the agenda page.
<cjwatson> hello
<cjwatson> sfllaw: thanks, I forgot
<sfllaw> Oh, I'm here.
<mdz> cjwatson: did heno mention whether he could make it?
<heno> here
<mdz> ah, that's everyone then
<cjwatson> ... I won't bother answering that then. :)
<Keybuk> kwwii: ?
<heno> I was following the 'arrived during the past 10 minutes rule' :)
<Commander-Crowe> here
<dholbach> Keybuk: he arrived before you did :)
<kwwii> Keybuk: hi
<mdz> heno: didn't see you come in, sorry
<mdz> ok
<mdz> the meeting agenda is at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DevelTeamMeeting20070201
<mdz> please have a look
<pochu> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 01 2007, 21:03:04 - Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team
<mdz> if you have any new agenda items, shout
<Keybuk> (everyone should read the activity reports there; if you have items to add to the agenda as a result of reading those, now is the time)
<cjwatson> from now on we'll generally mail it out on the day of the meeting - probably not before the tail-end of Thursday morning though, as it takes time to prepare
<BenC> mdz: What about removals?
<sfllaw> Can we get a decision about what to do about -commercial support?  I'm unclear about it as is jbailey.
<mdz> BenC: likewise
<dholbach> I think we can drop point 7, right pitti?
<BenC> mdz: apport/kernel, done
<BenC> mdz: d-d-m maybe discuss, but being defered
<mdz> ogra: you took the wiki lock; that means you get to do all the edits :-)
* pitti just wrote a followup on distro-team@ and closed two feisty sprint things on the wiki page
<ogra> mdz, already released
<cjwatson> sfllaw: clarify?
<Keybuk> ogra: please note, don't add items (or reports) to that wiki page -- instead mail them by the end of wednesday if you wish them to be included
<pitti> dholbach: if the ML is the right place (as opposed to blackmailing kwwii), that's fine for me
<dholbach> hahaha :-)
<sfllaw> We have no way to track bugs in the BTS, and have no idea how to escalate bugs to the appropriate people to fix them.
<seb128> mdz: easy codec installation can be marked done as well
<ogra> Keybuk, ok, sorry, the new process somewhat went past me ...
<sfllaw> Right now, they're getting dropped on the floor, which is lousy for user-experience.
<mdz> BenC: done how?
<BenC> mdz: apport/kernel stuff should be in Herd 3
<sfllaw> cjwatson: Perhaps this isn't appropriate for the DevelTeamMeeting, though.
<pitti> mdz: feisty's apport package is prepared for new behaviour for a while and should automatically switch over
<mdz> BenC: oh, the new kernel interface you mean?
<pitti> yup
<cjwatson> sfllaw: I think that probably requires discussion with launchpad folks; perhaps mail distro-team and we can prepare something to pass to launchpad@
<BenC> mdz: unless that's in regards to kernel calling apport for crashes
<mdz> BenC: I thought you meant that, yeah
<pitti> mdz: I tested it with a locally built kernel on the sprint
<pitti> mdz: apporting kernel oopses is in apport bzr head (not uploaded due to freeze)
<cjwatson> sfllaw: (I have some crude ideas but I don't want to brainstorm in this meeting)
<mdz> pitti: ooh
<mdz> ok, I've updated the agenda
<BenC> we need a marker for changing topics in regards to the agenda
<Keybuk> BenC: ?
<BenC> like **CHANGING TOPIC: foo.***
<BenC> so it's easy to follow
<pitti> mdz: malone cloakroom is done, too
<mdz> yes, that would be helpful
<Keybuk> it's a wiki. just diff it :p
<mdz> pitti: please go ahead and make your edits; I thought you said you already had
<BenC> no, I mean in the channel :P
<sfllaw> BenC: That's a clever idea.
<pitti> mdz: the other wiki
<BenC> while we discuss
<mdz> Keybuk: he means to highlight proposals for new agenda items
<mdz> oh, no he doesn't
<Keybuk> we should keep the discussion to a minimum at this point :p
<mdz> he means to delineate the conversation
<BenC> right
<cjwatson> TIMEOUT on new agenda items
<mdz> agreed
<BenC> there we go
<pitti> mdz: done
<mdz> first up: new archive team
<mdz> new rule: all agenda items must have a person associated with them :-)
<cjwatson> pitti is fully enfranchised; I've sent an RT request for seb128 as well
<kylem> that's a good rule.
<mdz> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-archive
<Keybuk> sorry, this was me from two or three different pastes
<pitti> since I'm a fresh addition, and seb128 will follow soon, and Scott and Colin won't have so much time any more, I think we shuold get a new 'archive days'
<seb128> agreed
<Keybuk> Who are the new archive members; what are their general responsibilities and who is doing which day?
<pitti> I became comfortable with SRUs and syncs
<mdz> I'll add seb128 to LP
<pitti> and I need to find some time with cjwatson to do langpack uploads as well
<pitti> but I didn't do NEW yet
<seb128> I'm happy to do binary new and syncs
<iwj> Keybuk: These are good questions.  Perhaps the new archive team will send an announcement of new responsibilties, times, etc. ?
<cjwatson> ACTION: cjwatson to train pitti in langpack upload procedure
<mdz> are the syncs generally more complete now that we codified the policy?
<pitti> seb128, Mithrandir: can we meet tomorrow for figuring out new archive days? say, 1000 UTC?
<seb128> pitti: WFM
<Mithrandir> I'm happy to help new members where they feel that they're not confident yet.
<mdz> ACTION: followup meeting for archive team to discuss archive days
<pitti> mdz: I had to reject/needinfo very few so far
<Mithrandir> pitti: sure.
* Keybuk is keeping track of actions
<Keybuk> ok
<cjwatson> help new members> as am I
<Keybuk> next item?
<cjwatson> (pitti) Artwork procedure: Martin would like to get an official Icon for apport, how do we get these kinds of things done?
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: just a sec
<pitti> <dholbach> pitti: for the official apport icon, I'd just ask the folks on ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
<doko_> joining ...
<Mithrandir> I'd really like to have one of the new members to become comfortable with source NEW as well, or I'll implode at some point.
<pitti> if that implies any chance of actually getting one, I'm fine with the ML
<mdz> pitti: kwwii is the person to talk to about that
<kwwii> pitti: we can discuss this offline
<pitti> kwwii: sure
<pitti> ACTION: pitti and kwwii discuss apport artwork
<mdz> tell him your need, and he can submit it to the community, track submissions, and perhaps be a fallback to create an icon if none turns up
<mdz> (BenC) Fate of udev. Will kernel team take it over, or will Ian? Admittedly, udev should work as-is for feisty, but I want to know if in the future we should expect to do changes ourselves, or be able to go to another person taking the responsibility. Trying to account for workload.
<pitti> Keybuk: you'll collect those with /lastlog ACTION or so?
<mdz> pitti: he's noting them as we go
<iwj> I'd be happy to help deal with it.
<cjwatson> ACTION: archive team to ensure that at least one further member is trained in source NEW
<Keybuk> udev is mostly a hands off project
<iwj> I'm still a beginner as regards udev and not up to speed with kernel development nowadays.
<Keybuk> it just needs updating in step with the kernel
<BenC> iwj: Deal with it totally?
<iwj> Keybuk: That sounds good.
* pitti has some experience with source package review with MIR and thus could help out
<Keybuk> and bugs rejected if they ask for package names
<iwj> BenC: If what Keybuk says is true then yes.
<Keybuk> uh
<Keybuk> device names
<mdz> Keybuk: it also needs someone to help isolate problems
<BenC> iwj: Are you using udev? :)
<cjwatson> pitti: I think you'd be the obvious person
<iwj> BenC: On my Ubuntu systems, yes.
<pitti> cjwatson: *nod*
<Mithrandir> pitti: we'll discuss it tomorrow at 1000 utc
<BenC> ok, I'm happy with iwj taking on udev
<Keybuk> my gut feeling has been that someone on Colin's team, ideally the kernel team, should take it on
<kylem> me too.
<kylem> ;-)
<Keybuk> as it's an upstream project, and very closely related to the kernel
<Keybuk> but I'm also happy for someone like iwj to take it on as well
<iwj> I don't really have an opinion.
<BenC> I was actually looking for more kernel realted packages for the kernel-team, but if someone else has the notion, Im not against it
<mdz> I agree that it makes sense for the kernel team to own it
<cjwatson> I agree with mdz
<iwj> BenC: Well, if you guys want it don't let me stand in your way.
<seb128> pitti: I'm not that comfortable doing source NEW for now, I would prefer to stick to binary new and syncs to start if that's fine with you
<mdz> BenC: the kernel team has the most resources at the moment, with new folks coming on board
<iwj> I'll probably still take a slight interest.
<pitti> seb128: I am, let's talk about it tomorrow
<cjwatson> I have no objection to stuff being arranged so that iwj can help out
<seb128> pitti: ok
<BenC> mdz: Right, we need work load fillers, and things to take off the daily bug grind
<Keybuk> iwj has already proved very useful in touching things that interface with udev, like lvm, etc.
<mdz> naturally, it wouldn't be an exclusive responsibility; anyone who is interested can help out
<cjwatson> but I'd like the kernel team to own stuff that touches very closely on kernelspace from the userspace side
<iwj> mdz: Right.
<cjwatson> (as a general guideline)
<pitti> does that also include the current pile of udev specs?
<BenC> yes
<iwj> pitti: Let's discuss them later.
<cjwatson> pitti: not for feisty, but going forward yes
<Keybuk> ACTION: keybuk to summarise a "how to maintain udev" for the kernel team, and "how to debug problems" for all interested parties
<mdz> agreed, I'd like for the kernel team to take a general responsibility for hardware-related interfaces in userspace as well
<cjwatson> ok, done?
<cjwatson> (sfllaw) Support for -commercial
<mdz> Keybuk: debugging doc should be run by sfllaw and bdmurray
<BenC> ACTION: kernel-team to investigate packages that fit into their work
<BenC> horde everything possible
<pitti> BenC: hal :-P
<mdz> both for their own information and for review for presentation to the community
<BenC> heh, ouch
<cjwatson> (I thought this was going to go to the ML, but it's ended up on the agenda now)
<kylem> lsscsi, lspcmcia, etc.
<mdz> I added it to the agenda
<cjwatson> 21:10 <cjwatson> I think the simplest approach would be to create an ubuntu-commercial distro
<cjwatson> 21:10 <cjwatson> (name unimportant as long as it contains "commercial")
<mdz> sfllaw: the issue is that these packages aren't in launchpad, yes?
<cjwatson> 21:11 <sfllaw> That doesn't solve how escalations work...  What I'm saying is I have no idea what the procedure is.
<cjwatson> 21:12 <cjwatson> it would solve the problem of being unable to file bugs, and make it possible for people to be bug contacts
<cjwatson> 21:13 <cjwatson> which would mean that you could look them up, and complain (to the uploader, or to distro management since only distro team can upload to -commercial) when no bug contacts were registered
<cjwatson> 21:13 <cjwatson> anyway, let's do this on distro-team@
<mdz> it would be better to import the package names into an Ubuntu component somehow
<mdz> anyway, agreed, let's take it up with launchpad
<mdz> cjwatson: your action item to follow it up?
<cjwatson> sure
<mdz> ok
<mdz> done and done
<sfllaw> I'll e-mail distro-team@ and we can discuss.
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<cjwatson> ACTION: cjwatson to follow up handling of -commercial in Launchpad
<mdz> udev, device-mapper, lvm, evms, mdadm, etc. finishing and testing (Ian, Fabio, Scott)
<iwj> Re udev-* specs.  I this was unblocked but actually Keybuk tells me he has a 104 package floating about.
<iwj> udev-104, that is.
<cjwatson> what does 104 get us?
<cjwatson> though it is pre-UVF, granted
<iwj> I don't really know.  The upstream changelog was rather obscure.
<Keybuk> it may fix problems with .20 and device-mapper devices
<iwj> `problems' ?
<pitti> Keybuk: oh, the race condition? fixed upstream now?
<iwj> I think the best thing here is for Keybuk to finish and upload his 104 package and then for me to take these specs and finish them off.
<Keybuk> agreeed
<mdz> 104 is required to finish the specs?
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> it's orthagonal
<mdz> iwj: then those should be parallel, not serial
<iwj> But if it changes the way the dm-* devices are handled then it would involve rework to do 104 later.
<Keybuk> it doesn't change it in any way that affects your specs
<iwj> Keybuk: Err, OK.  I must have misunderstood some of your earlier comments.
<iwj> (In private message this afternoon, I mean.)
<mdz> ok, sounds like the two of you can work this out offline?
<iwj> I'll press on basing things on 103 then.
<iwj> mdz: Yes.
<Keybuk> it simply reduces the number of times your rules would be called from twice (once on dmsetup, once after the table is loaded) to once after the table is loaded (or changed)
<mdz> Device Driver Manager (Scott, Ben)
<Keybuk> mdz: we've decided to defer that to +1, I believe
<cjwatson> we dealt with that the other day, it's deferred to feisty+1
<cjwatson> NEXT
<mdz> ok
<BenC> device-driver-manager is going to be defered
<mdz> Automated testing deployment (Ian, Robert)
<iwj> In progress, I'm debugging my code.
<iwj> I'm not sure why Robert is on this agenda item.
<mdz> BenC: it will be nice to have some time to polish up the UI, I'm sure
<iwj> Are there two separate things going on here ?
<cjwatson> iwj: that was copied from the sprint agenda
<mdz> there's no hurry to get it in just now
<iwj> mdz: OK.
<BenC> mdz: Definitely
<mdz> this is a list of items from the sprint agenda which had no outcome recorded
<iwj> Right, well, Robert and I discussed all relevant things and that sprint agenda item should count as done.
<mdz> iwj: I understand you and lifeless did have a conversation about this; what's the outlook?
<keescook> iwj: keep me in the loop on auto testing docs please; I've been building tests while doing security update tests.  I want to make sure the stuff pitti and I have been doing will be each to port over.
<iwj> keescook: Noted.
<cjwatson> in many cases we simply didn't notice that the sprint item should be marked as done, and that's fine - just want to ensure they're all checked
<pitti> keescook: I prepared a new dovecot package with the test included and autopkgtest'ified and sent it to iwj
<iwj> mdz: We did have a conversation but the commonality between what we're doing isn't huge right now.  But we're keeping each other informed so there won't be duplicated work.
<iwj> pitti: Right.  That's going to be my second testcase after I get mawk working.
<mdz> iwj: the point of it was that he's available to help us with initiatives like this
<pitti> iwj: cool :)
<keescook> pitti: right; I just want to know what the Right methods are for autopkgtest'ifying.  :)
<iwj> mdz: He has offered to review my Python :-).
<iwj> keescook: Indeed.
<BenC> mdz, cjwatson, Keybuk: So for next week, will the actions items from this meeting be on the agenda, and we can mark them in the wiki as done to avoid discussion?
<cjwatson> BenC: yes
<iwj> When I get dovecot working I'll have an update for you and updated docs too.
<BenC> excellent
<cjwatson> "actions from previous meeting" is a standing item
<mdz> BenC: they'll be sent out to the mailing list after this meeting, and responses can be incorporated when we make the next agenda
<mdz> Integrate update-silo that's outside of SPARC installer scope (spec is already implemented). (Fabio, Ben)
<keescook> iwj: great, thank you.  :)
<cjwatson> Fabio is travelling; BenC?
<Keybuk> mdz: fabio is on his way to montreal right now
<BenC> no work on that yet
<BenC> I have a working script, just need to get it into the installer and into silo
<sfllaw> He is set to arrive at the airport at around 19:00.
<mdz> what's it about?  is it needed for feisty?
<sfllaw> I believe jbailey is going to have dinner with him.
<BenC> Fabio was going to do the installer bits
<BenC> getting into silo is just an upload away
<BenC> mdz: It's not required, no
<BenC> just a useful update-grub-like script
<cjwatson> we don't really need to track it as an action, then
<BenC> no, not really
<mdz> being a nice-to-have for sparc makes it a pretty low priority
<cjwatson> it makes the sparc post-install boot sequence less sucky, but ...
<mdz> Braille support and making access in GDM just work (Henrik, ?)
<BenC> very low-prio, on the verge of can-do-without
<cjwatson> ACTION: cjwatson to re-review and incorporate braille-setup into installer
<cjwatson> (probably easier than any alternative)
<heno> so braille support should be ok for FF, but GDM is looking to be a pain
<cjwatson> "UNCERTAIN: access-gdm -- ATM selecting the accessible login option in the setup GUI completely breaks GDM. This can likely be fixed with some love, but even then it's only in the non-themed interface, not our default."
<heno> upstream needs to implement support in the themed version
<cjwatson> (heno's update)
<mdz> heno: is this a regression from edgy?
<heno> perhaps we should grey out the check box when the themed version is selected
<heno> mdz: no, it has never worked
<cjwatson> themed> as in the fancy greeter?
<heno> cjwatson: yes, the one we use
<heno> youcan get the old one to work with some tweaking, ut nobody uses that
<heno> it defeats the purpose IMO
<mdz> heno: assume you'll track it and take the best course available for feisty.  is there more to discuss?
<heno> mdz: no, that's fine
<mdz> ok
<mdz> doko isn't here, so we should carry his over
<cjwatson> IIRC it was reviewing the list of modules in main and deciding which still make sense
<mdz> pitti,keescook: I'm assuming InitialUbuntuCVETracking isn't done in launchpad yet?
<cjwatson> but yes
<doko> mdz: I'm listening
<pitti> mdz: right, low prio and blocked on InitialCVETracking LP spec
<mdz> cjwatson: yes, that sounds like a discussion which should be had via mail with a larger group, say on ubuntu-devel
<mdz> Herd milestone progress (Tollef, Jonathan, Scott, Colin?, Matt?)
<Keybuk> that was just that I wanted to discuss some things with them both
<Keybuk> I have done that
<mdz> Keybuk: anything notable for the group?
<Riddell> Kubuntu is ready to go as far as I'm concerned
<cjwatson> mdz: yes, it was to be a group discussion but never happened
* ogra is still testing
<mdz> cjwatson: mailing list moderation?
<cjwatson> doko: as mdz says, ubuntu-devel is probably the best bet, now that it's moderated and hopefully won't descend into bikeshedding
<Keybuk> mdz: nothing of note; mostly it was just making sure that I get updates of the milestone progress so I can tell you when you ask :)
<mdz> Mithrandir: what do you think of having a milestone readiness update at each meeting, so we can stay informed of blockers and todos?
<cjwatson> we didn't get round to that at the sprint. Who here is interested in doing mailing list moderation on a regular basis? The item was to ensure we're all doing it in roughly the same way.
<Keybuk> cjwatson: Other Business
<cjwatson> ubuntu-devel, chiefly
<cjwatson> Keybuk: uh, it's an agenda item
<mdz> I'm interested, but have no time
<mdz> do we have written guidelines?
<mdz> I can help with that
<Mithrandir> mdz: that would be useful, but probably more as something where people tell me about problems
<cjwatson> IIRC Tollef expressed interest
<Keybuk> cjwatson: ah, sorry, didn't see the item :p
<dholbach> I moderated like 10 mailing lists already and feel that's enough already. :-/
<cjwatson> I don't think we do, but we should
<cjwatson> aside from the charter
<mdz> cjwatson: this strikes me as something which would benefit from community participation
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I'm happy to.
<heno> I'm happy to moderate, given some guidelines
<mdz> cjwatson: can you contact jono and ask him to put out a call?
<cjwatson> ACTION: cjwatson to chase up the set of core-devs who can help moderate ubuntu-devel and arrange for clear documentation
<mdz> cjwatson: perhaps not too broad; we only want folks we can trust with the responsibility
<mdz> shouldn't have to be only core devs
<cjwatson> I think core-dev is the appropriate restriction
<mdz> if we write clear guidelines
<cjwatson> most of the people I'd automatically trust with it are already core-dev
<mdz> ACTION: mdz to codify mailing list guidelines
<mdz> Kubuntu Dist Upgrader (Michael, Jonathan)
* Mithrandir mumbles something about that mailman should just use lp for authentication
<Riddell> waiting for mvo to upload
<mvo_> I merged jonathans code into the main tree
<mvo_> will be uploaded after herd-3
<Riddell> then it needs backported and lots of testing
<cjwatson> is it qt4?
<Riddell> cjwatson: no, it needs the embedded konsole widget from KDE
<cjwatson> probably just as well
<cjwatson> any actions from this beyond what mvo and Riddell are going to do anyway?
<Riddell> only poking archive admin when it needs to get into -proposed and -updates
<cjwatson> ok, that's routine
<Riddell> yep
<cjwatson> ANY OTHER BUSINESS
<BenC> wow, 15 minutes to spare
<mdz> yes
<pitti> some feedback for the meeting style: I found it significantly less boring
<Riddell> we can now poke iwj about main inclusion reviews?
<iwj> This new meeting format is a massive improvement.  With practice we can trim it even more.
<iwj> Riddell: Yes.
<BenC> pitti: as did I
<mdz> heno: herd 3 will be the dry run of the new ISO testing scheme, yes?
<cjwatson> this one will be unusually long due to the sprint followup, I think
<pitti> less reading, more discussion, ++
<Riddell> iwj: kde-style-polyester in the queue if you want an easy one
<mdz> Riddell: the screenshot in your activity summary is very nice looking
<BenC> I actually stopped working during this meeting :)
<iwj> cjwatson: Quite.  And we'll get more practice at getting stuff off the agenda.
<heno> mdz: yes, we are already using it. 6-7 community results so far
<iwj> Riddell: OK, but not now, because I'm off to the pub.  Email me ?
<pitti> iwj: I cleaned up the queue a bit yesterday
<cjwatson> I need to help abattoir out with a few things
<iwj> pitti: I saw.
<Riddell> iwj: sure
<cjwatson> in order to get that properly mergeable I need to finish off a timezone branch I have in progress
<iwj> Or ping me on irc tomorrow.  Whatever you like.
<heno> We should keep it open after the release as well, to get people used to it
<mdz> heno: we should use it for canonical testing as well
<heno> mdz: we are :)
<cjwatson> which basically amounts to admitting that I won't get round to merging oem-config into ubiquity this time round and clone-and-hacking from u6y instead
<Riddell> cjwatson: let me know if I can help with anything there
<iwj> Thanks everyone, esp cjwatson and Keybuk, for efficiency and bevity.  And goodnight all.
<kwwii> pitti: send me an email with any ideas/info about the icon you need...then let's talk in chat about it
<heno> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-iso-tests/+bugs
<Keybuk> == Apologies ==
<Keybuk> ## One advantage of this meeting format is we get to list who's not coming.
<Keybuk> meh
<pitti> kwwii: great, will do
<Keybuk> I meant to say
<mdz> we have a couple of new folks
<Keybuk> I'll mail out the action points to distro-team, and update the meeting page
<pitti> Keybuk: yay for two clipboards under X? :-)
<cjwatson> oh yes, we missed new starters off the agenda
<mdz> Philip Lougher (pkl_) joins the kernel team with BenC and kylem
<cjwatson> that's Phillip
* pitti hugs pkl_ 
* kylem waves to pkl.
<Keybuk> pitti: yay to firefox slapping over both of them
<BenC> pkl_: welcome
* dholbach high-fives pkl_
<Riddell> hi pkl_
<mdz> you may know him from SquashFS
<ogra> welcome pkl_
<Keybuk> pkl_: welcome aboard
<pkl_> Hi, I'm lurking, just learning
<mdz> today is his first day
* keescook waves "hi" to pkl_
<cjwatson> pkl_: thanks for showing up at short notice, and I hope things are going well
<cjwatson> have fun scaling the learning curve
<pkl_> cjwatson: thanks
<mdz> likewise, Alexander Sack is new on the team
<cjwatson> Ben is mentoring Phillip
<cjwatson> Ian is mentoring Alexander
<mdz> I believe his nick is asac
<dholbach> Rock on asac! another member of the 'german mafia' :-)
<cjwatson> Alexander is joining as our new Mozilla maintainer, which fills a much-needed gap
<kwwii> oh please, here go the germans
<bdmurray> dholbach: not the Cargo Cult?
* dholbach hugs kwwii
<BenC> asac: welcome
<mdz> asac isn't able to be at this after-hours meeting tonight, but will be around tomorrow
<tkamppeter__> Has Ubuntu already more german developers than Novell/SuSE?
<kwwii> dholbach: we've got to plan that artwork meeting in Berlin
<cjwatson> oh, also, Alexander is half-time at present; I imagine we'll get used to his schedule, but he's agreed to set up a calendar
<dholbach> kwwii: definitely :)
<ogra> yay, hey asac
<mdz> ok, that's all from me tonight
<cjwatson> I think that's everything
<mdz> any other business?
<sfllaw> Summaries of action items in the wiki page?
<cjwatson> I don't think I informed Till properly of the new meeting arrangements, so I'll do that
<cjwatson> Keybuk was to do the summaries
<mdz> summaries?
<Keybuk> sfllaw: already done
<mdz> oh
<sfllaw> Sweet!
* sfllaw hugs Keybuk.
<Keybuk> and mailed to distro-team
<mdz> Keybuk: please mail to the list as well
<mdz> :-)
<tkamppeter__> cjwatson, i have seen that no one pastes his report any more.
<cjwatson> tkamppeter__: I'll e-mail you, sorry for forgetting that this week
<mdz> tkamppeter__: we're trying something new
<tkamppeter__> And I really did not get any mail about the new format.
<cjwatson> you didn't, my fault
<mdz> tkamppeter__: cjwatson will explain to you after the meeting
<mdz> I'm not hearing any other business
<mdz> so let's adjourn
<mdz> thanks, all!
<Keybuk> thanks all
<dholbach> good night folks - thanks all
<mvo_> good night everyone
<seb128> 'night
<kylem> night.
<doko> night
<ogra> thanks
* keescook waves
<kwwii> night all, thanks
<pitti> thanks all!
<pkl_> good night
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-02
<nats> hello
<pochu> hi nats
<nats> how are you?
<pochu> nats: fine :)
<pochu> and you?
<nats> fine
<nats> thx
<pochu> :)
<pochu> ubuntu rocks!
<pochu> @schedule madrid
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Madrid: Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | 05 Feb 21:00: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 13:00: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 17:00: Forum Council | 13 Feb 21:00: Technical Board
<nats> what's it?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 13 Feb 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | 13 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 14 Feb 10:00 UTC: MOTU
<Seveas> @topic
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 05 Feb 20:00 UTC: Mozilla Team | 07 Feb 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 08 Feb 16:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 11 Feb 22:00 UTC: LoCo Teams | 13 Feb 16:00 UTC: Forum Council | 13 Feb 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<pitti> seb128, Mithrandir: so, as I said I did syncs, removals, and SRU now; SRU takes quite a lot of time, but I'm fine with doing some source NEW as well
<Mithrandir> should we discuss the agenda first? :-)
<pitti> ok :)
<pitti> - assign responsibilities
<Mithrandir> * archive team days
<pitti> - work out archive days schedule
<pitti> ?
<Mithrandir> yeah, I guess those are the important ones.
<pitti> so what do we need to do: syncs, source new, binary new, removals, cruft, sru, promotions/demotions
<pitti> anything else?
<pitti> oh, backports
<Mithrandir> yeah, and freeze exceptions at one point, but I'll in general be happy to take those.
<seb128> stable updates?
<Mithrandir> == sru
<seb128> ah, right
<pitti> Mithrandir: right, freeze exceptions are RMish
<Mithrandir> ok, so what would people like to do?
<seb128> I'm happy to do syncs, binary new, removals
<pitti> <- sru, syncs, removals, help with source new (but this should be done by several people)
<cjwatson> also you *will* be asked to investigate weird shit :-)
<cjwatson> I can keep on doing cruft and the odd bit of other stuff
<pitti> seb128: you often need main promotion as well, I guess?
<cjwatson> and backports I suppose, though I'd like not to be the only one
<seb128> pitti: right
<seb128> I'm happy to help on backports as well
<cjwatson> is somebody taking minutes?
<Mithrandir> I am
<pitti> cjwatson: I'll send a report
<pitti> oh, ok
<pitti> Mithrandir: so you do freeze exceptions and also source new?
<Mithrandir> yes, I'm trying to write up a matrix here to see if there's stuff uncovered
<pitti> oh, and I guess I'm the natural choice for langpack processing :)
<cjwatson> every so often somebody has to clean up crap on drescher because soyuz doesn't clean up the queues automatically yet. I'm happy to do that
<Mithrandir> nobody's grabbed promotions/demotions, but that's not really much work.
<pitti> right, I'm happy to demote stuff :)
<Mithrandir> syncs - pitti, seb
<Mithrandir> source new - pitti
<Mithrandir> binary new - seb,
<Mithrandir> removals - pitti, seb
<Mithrandir> sru - pitti
<Mithrandir> promotions/demotions -
<Mithrandir> langpacks - pitti, cjwatson
<Mithrandir> backports - seb, cjwatson
<Mithrandir> freeze stuff - tfheen
<Mithrandir> cleanup - cjwatson
<Mithrandir> is what I have so far.
<Mithrandir> (I haven't put me in yet)
<Mithrandir> I'll do NEW.
<pitti> Mithrandir: put me in for promotions/demotions (and maybe seb, too)
<Mithrandir> I can help out with SRUs too
<Mithrandir> that leaves us with two people for all of it, except freeze stuff and cleanup.
<pitti> ok, but cleanup doesn't need to be done that often, or does it?
<pitti> this stuff is mainly useful for ensuring that the archive stuff keeps being done even if someone is on vac
<Mithrandir> yup
<pitti> Mithrandir: I'm not sure whether it's a good idea to have several people for freeze exceptions -- how much work is it?
<Mithrandir> not much work, and it ties very closely in with doing the release management.
<Mithrandir> so I'm happy to have that alone.  It shouldn't matter except when we're in freeze mode, in which case the RM should be around anyway. :-)
* pitti nods
<pitti> ok, are we settled with that?
<Mithrandir> (and if I happen to go sick or something, somebody else will have to do the RM-ing and can then just pick up the exceptions too)
<Mithrandir> yes, I am.
<Mithrandir> seb128,cjwatson : are you two too happy?
<pitti> what's the matrix now?
<seb128> yep
<Mithrandir> syncs - pitti, seb
<Mithrandir> source new - pitti, tfheen
<Mithrandir> binary new - seb, tfheen
<Mithrandir> removals - pitti, seb
<Mithrandir> sru - pitti, tfheen
<Mithrandir> promotions/demotions - pitti, seb
<Mithrandir> langpacks - pitti, cjwatson
<Mithrandir> backports - seb, cjwatson
<Mithrandir> freeze stuff - tfheen
<Mithrandir> cleanup - cjwatson
<pitti> great
<pitti> and of those, syncs, new, sru, backports, and pro/demotions need to be done regularly, AFAICS
<seb128> looks fine to me
<pitti> so, personally I find it better and more efficient to batch things, so if it's my archive day, I'd do all of my tasks in one piece
<Mithrandir> ok, so on to archive days.
<pitti> so is everyone fine with doing archive maintenance on mon, wed, and fri?
<pitti> (since the regular tasks cover three archive maintainers)
<pitti> then we shouldn't crash into each other and spread out processing across the week
<Mithrandir> experience from this cycle so far points to me having problems doing archive days in release weeks, but other weeks are very archive-heavy.
<pitti> Mithrandir: I think this isn't set in stone, we can always ask someone else to cover
<Mithrandir> well, true
<pitti> but if it's X's archive day, it should be his responsibility to get it done or delegated?
<Mithrandir> and if I grabbed monday, it should be fine anyway.
<pitti> seb128: so maybe wed for you and fri for me?
<seb128> wed works fine for me
<Mithrandir> ok, let's make it so.
<pitti> ok, then I'll do the pending stuff today
<pitti> while seb is still collecting logins and team memberships
<Mithrandir> pitti: please don't do binary NEW until herd 3 is out.
<Mithrandir> or at least not for stuff in main.
<pitti> Mithrandir: right, just syncs and sru today
<Mithrandir> yeah, that's fine.
<pitti> the syncs will just land in unapproved, right?
<Mithrandir> hmm
<pitti> I won't touch promotion/demotion either
<Mithrandir> I'm unsure, actually.
<Mithrandir> so try not to sync stuff in main today?
<pitti> Mithrandir: ok, let's defer syncs as well
<Mithrandir> thanks.
<pitti> right, so no main processing today to be on the safe side
<pitti> alright, that covers it for my part
<pitti> everyone happy?
<seb128> yep
<pitti> great
<pitti> seb128: what do you still need to actually get going?
<seb128> what do you mean?
<seb128> ah
<pitti> cjwatson: could we do the langpack training sometimes soon? fixing dapper is kind of urgent
<pitti> seb128: drescher login, sudo powers, team membership
<Mithrandir> also, I'm happy to help out if there are questions or stuff which is unclear.
<seb128> I need a drescher account with sudo powers on it
<seb128> Colin sent a RT for it yesterday
<pitti> seb128: ok; we have mon and friday covered, so that's ok for now, I think
<seb128> right
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: I'm happy
<pitti> seb128: btw, I recently updated the ArchiveAdmin page with my new flush-syncs tool
<Mithrandir> ok, coolie.
<seb128> pitti: good ;)
<Mithrandir> any other business?
<seb128> nop
<pitti> Mithrandir: just langpack training for me with Colin, nothing else
<cjwatson> I think syncs go straight through, for the record
<cjwatson> though I'd need to check whether the sync policy honours freeze status
<pitti> ok, so better not touch main at all today
<pitti> I'll just do SRUs today then
<cjwatson> so, langpacks
<cjwatson> obviously you first have to get them over to drescher somehow
<pitti> Mithrandir: shall I mail ubuntu-devel-announce with the assignments and schedule or do you want to?
<pitti> cjwatson: right, scp -r or rsync, I assume
<Mithrandir> pitti: I can do it
<cjwatson> then, as lp_queue, make a directory in ~lp_queue/manual-queue/incoming/
<cjwatson> (like syncs, make it unique somehow - username + date is good)
<cjwatson> dump all the uploads in there
<cjwatson> then, still as lp_queue: NOMAILS=-M ~/manual-queue/process-incoming.sh
<cjwatson> the NOMAILS bit is important obviously
<cjwatson> it'll spam your terminal for about a week
<cjwatson> then as lp_archive you'll need to approve them all in the relevant unapproved queue
<cjwatson> q -s dapper-proposed -Q unapproved -M accept language-pack
<cjwatson> again the -M is important
<cjwatson> and again it'll spam your terminal for about a week
<cjwatson> you can use DRYRUN='-N -K' (for process-incoming.sh) or -N (for queue) to dry-run if you like
<cjwatson> though I only ever bother for a subset of language packs since there are so many
<cjwatson> pitti: happy with that?
<pitti> cjwatson: doesn't look too complicated
<pitti> cjwatson: thank you; I'll try it out for dapper now and come back to you if there should be any trouble
<cjwatson> yeah, it's simple enough, just hard to work out
<pitti> 10:39:18 INFO    Announcing to dapper-changes@lists.ubuntu.com
<pitti> cjwatson: ^ shall I take this seriously if I specified NOMALS=M?
<pitti> NOMAILS=-M even
<cjwatson> pitti: it should say something like "would be sending a mail"
<cjwatson> the debug output is a bit dodgy in places
<pitti> at least I didn't get any mails to -changes so far
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-03
<airjump> hello
<airjump> Why are all Ubuntu people in the IRC? Jabber is nevertheless much better! ubuntu@conference.jabber.org a good room
<AlexLatchford> /random
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-02-04
<Veroi22> hi
<Veroi22> EXOTICS ADULT FORUM ::::::::: http://exotics.ezbbforum.com ...
<Veroi22> EXOTICS ADULT FORUM ::::::::: http://exotics.ezbbforum.com ...
<Hobbsee> Seveas: ping?
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [+b *!*@88.232.*!##unavailable]  by nalioth
<lorddark> hola gente
<lorddark> quien hay
<Hobbsee> lorddark: as there's no meeting on at the moment, yes
<Hobbsee> try #ubuntu-offtopic for people to talk to
<lorddark> hermano yo soy del grupo
<lorddark> soy done
<lorddark> o es que me equivoque y este no es el colombiano
<lorddark> ???
<Hobbsee> !es
<Hobbsee> try #ubuntu-es
<lorddark> digo que si este no es el canal de opcional de ubuntu-co
* Hobbsee thinks she guessed the wrong language
<lorddark> ok , sorry
<lorddark>  bay
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-28
<emgent> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 28 2008, 13:19:07 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 1 day
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-29
<emgent> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 29 2008, 18:24:24 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 17 hours 35 minutes
<keescook> hm, I don't see the server-team meeting on the Fridge (I know that's at 2100 UTC on Wed)
<emgent> uhm
<keescook> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:50. The chair is keescook.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<keescook> [IDEA] mootbot is cool
<MootBot> IDEA received:  mootbot is cool
<keescook> [LINK] mootbot is documented at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<MootBot> LINK received:  mootbot is documented at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<keescook> [TOPIC] kees is testing mootbot
<MootBot> New Topic:  kees is testing mootbot
<keescook> [ACTION] kees will end the meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kees will end the meeting
<keescook> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:51.
<highvoltage> where do the meeting "logs" from MootBot get sent to?
<keescook> highvoltage: they appear to be sent here: http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20080129_1850.html
<keescook> or rather, http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/?C=M;O=D
<keescook> I found the docs for MootBoot and added the link to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 30 Jan 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
<nealmcb> @schedule denver
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Denver: 30 Jan 05:00: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 13:00: Security Team | 30 Jan 14:00: Server Team | 01 Feb 13:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 15:30: Forum Council | 19 Feb 18:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 30 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 30 Jan 21:00: Security Team | 30 Jan 22:00: Server Team | 01 Feb 21:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 23:30: Forum Council | 20 Feb 02:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
<mdz_> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:01. The chair is mdz_.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz_> This is the bi-weekly meeting of the Ubuntu Technical Board
<mdz_> however, I'm not sure we'll have a quorum tonight
<mdz_> Keybuk and sabdfl are both unavailable, and I've been unable to reach mjg59
<Mithrandir> > LANG=C TZ=Australia/Sydney date
<Mithrandir> Wed Jan 30 07:03:07 EST 2008
<Mithrandir> somehow, I don't think mjg59 is awake at this hour
<mdz_> oh, he's at LCA?
<mdz_> I think the meeting is doomed then
<Mithrandir> yes, he is.
<mdz_> the only agenda item is from TheMuso, who may be at LCA as well
 * TheMuso isn't.
<mdz_> TheMuso: I owe you an apology on behalf of the TB for your early morning, then :-/
<TheMuso> mdz_: Its fine, I'm usually up and about at this time anyway, so its no great loss.
<mdz_> we can't review your application without a quorum
<TheMuso> I understand.
<mdz_> I'll follow up via email and see what we can arrange
<TheMuso> Ok, fine by me.
<mdz_> ok, my apologies again
<mdz_> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 20:07.
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-30
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Edubuntu meeting Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 30 Jan 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
<RichEd> hello edubuntu meeting
<juliux> hello RichEd
<RichEd> who do we have around today ?
<RichEd> hi juliux :)
<juliux> still at work but around;)
 * Hobbsee comes in to disrupt the meeting
<RichEd> ahh Hobbsee ... hi there :)
<RichEd> so looks like just RichEd juliux Hobbsee & ogra then ?
<Hobbsee> hiya RichEd!
 * RichEd waits for ogra to kick of with a short tech update - including the distro sprint last week
<ogra> hey
<ogra> well, most of my sprint time was invested into classmate to get it running with the new hardy kernel
<ogra> but we also discussed the Cd changes
<RichEd> [ actually glad to have juliux & Hobbsee ... we have been asked to get an opinion from the community on a name migration so please wait around to chat about that ]
<ogra> sadly the scripts are not completely transitioned yet as i hoped for alpha4
<Hobbsee> RichEd: any name will be acceptable, as long as it has reference to either a) monty python, or b) hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.
<ogra> so alpha4 will still build a server CD but i dont test it
<ogra> if you want to test install media, please test ubuntu alternate with the preseed options set as i stated in my mail recently
<ogra> (to test ltsp)
<ogra> cjwatson is busy changing the seed management to please us and get the plain addon setup going soon ...
<ogra> i have some bad ltsp bugs on y plate (i.e. ldm consolekit integration to make authenticated apps (sudo and the like) work at all on ltsp atm)
<ogra> the dekstop changed a lot in this regard and ltsp isnt up to date here yet
<ogra> johnny who isnt here but a resident in #edubuntu did a lot on sabayon ... talking to upstream and getting fixes in etc
<ogra> i hope i find the time this week to update that
<ogra> (there is a new upstream waiting)
<cjwatson> seed changes will land after alpha4
<cjwatson> (I got blocked on a few more bits of infrastructure I'd missed)
 * ogra didnt complain :) and the community wont either 
<cjwatson> ogra: once the seed changes are done, I'd appreciate it if you could make the CD build script changes; I will be happy to help you
<ogra> (dare you guys :) )
<ogra> cjwatson, ok, will do
<cjwatson> ogra: what sort of kernel problems did you encounter on the classmate?
<cjwatson> (I didn't get a chance to talk with you at the sprint about this)
<ogra> cjwatson, after searching 1.5 days i found the clocksource detection to be at fault
<cjwatson> oh, fun
<ogra> BenC knows about it ...
<ogra> and you can set colcksource as grub parameter
<ogra> so its not to bad actually
<cjwatson> is there a suitably milestoned bug to ensure that it doesn't get forgotten?
<ogra> well, and i'm still experimenting with tickless
<ogra> not yet, i'll add one
<cjwatson> thanks
<ogra> but it seems i'm not the only one with that pob so i suspect ther is a bug already
<ogra> *prob
<cjwatson> ogra has sent me a summary of CK problems in ssh, which I will process and try to work out
<ogra> we'll have a solution in any case fo CK ... the question is just which one :)
<ogra> beyond all that i'll upload my corrected classmate-initramfs and -setings packages to the archive this week (since i need them for the image)
<cjwatson> fortunately the ssh -X / consolekit problems are reproducible on a normal system
<ogra> with the setup with the livefs-rootfs scripts it should then be possible for everyone to build his own classmate image
<RichEd> ogra: can you and i touch sides tomorrow on the classmate issues going back & forth with intel ... and then prep a mail report for cjwatson and then on to intel ?
<ogra> cjwatson, easiest would be to hook it into the ssh X proxy code ... but then we'd miss the case where ssh -x is used with a DISPLAY variable (which i suspect is used by more ltsp users than the default)
<cjwatson> I need to read a few examples of consolekit integration before I can comment
<ogra> RichEd, sure ... even though i think colin is up to date with everything on the tech side, i usually copy all my mails
<RichEd> chris is very keen for us to hold them to the contract, and sort out any variances formally ... there is definately scope creep from their side
<ogra> cjwatson, in case you dont know it: http://people.freedesktop.org/~mccann/doc/ConsoleKit/ConsoleKit.html
<stgraber> hello
<ogra> i also have access to upstream, he's in #ltsp regulary atm for quick questions
<cjwatson> ogra: thanks, I hadn't seen that and that's definitely useful
<ogra> well, thats all from my side ... LaserJock sent two mails to edubuntu-devel i'd like to pul peoples attention to
<ogra> cjwatson, and mccann would love to help us out with whatever is needed (even CK upstream changes) if it improves :)
<ogra> fedorea has similar probs :)
<ogra> *fedora
<ogra> and nobody with a colin watson-ish insight in openssh ;)
<ogra> so i'm done with my tech stuff, stgraber anything new about iTalc ?
<RichEd> ogra: summarise the LaserJock issues quickly please ... he did bring them up at the meeting last week
<RichEd> hey stgraber :) you snuck in there
<ogra> he'd like to chaneg the app selection ... rasmol should be replaced by gnome-chemistry-utils
<RichEd> okay ... sounds fine ...
<ogra> squeak is in bad shape and he tries to solve that with upstream to get us better packages
<RichEd> he also mentioned there was no firm answer on where to do the menu editing ...
<ogra> and he's busy with edubuntu-menus asking how to develop a gui for it
<RichEd> he said you proposed alacarte ... but there was some reluctance from his side
<ogra> (which i dont see happening two weeks before freeze though)
<ogra> RichEd, well, if you edit menus you will use the menu editor
<RichEd> ogra: np ... let's keep it moving forwards anyway ... regardless of the current cycle
<stgraber> sorry, yes I was contacted by iTalc's upstream and he was as surprised as I'm about the various bugs I've found
<ogra> so imho that feature needs to be in the menu editor gui
<RichEd> that made sense to me as well
<RichEd> hence i was unsure why that was not the obvious route
<ogra> we need at least a proper documented wayx how to do it on the commandline though if we release it
<ogra> i'll talk to him this week
<ogra> to clearify that
<cjwatson> ogra: oh, I dunno, I suspect the RH openssh maintainer at least is better than I am
<RichEd> are there any or many people who are working on alacarte ? that we could draw on for help or at least some mentorship / guidance ?
<ogra> cjwatson, mccann didnt sound like that :)
<RichEd> if we aim for alacarte integrtion by 8.10 we may be able to get some new resources working on LaserJocks requirements as a project
<ogra> RichEd, i think alacarte is the gnome default menu editor upstream now ... but they dont agree with LaserJocks implementation using overlays afaik so i dont expect much help from that side ...
<ogra> we'd need a community guy knowing the alacarte code a bit
<cjwatson> the alacarte author is an Ubuntu community guy
<cjwatson> Amaranth
<ogra> the only one i know is Amaranth ... but he's so much into compiz that i fear he wont be available
<RichEd> ogra: this is starting to sound like the conversation with LaserJock ... we need to pick a route, define the requirements, and push forwards
<RichEd> :)
<ogra> yeah
<RichEd> could we get someone like cody somerville (the newish voluteer) to tackle at least an overview plan
<ogra> i dotn expect to have something thats polished and fully integrated by #hardy
<RichEd> he should have the time to start some conversations
<ogra> but having the backend bits done and stable would be a major step towards what we want
<RichEd> ogra: that's fine re hardy ... but this spec seems to stall often
<ogra> well, its a massive amount of work
<RichEd> so lets aim for 8.10 and get someone on it who is not tied up with the current release cycle
<ogra> i never expected it to be done in less than two releases
<ogra> (it took three yet though and might be done after five)
<RichEd> le me chat to cody by mail ... will cc you and LaserJock
<RichEd> *let
<ogra> i'm sure we could get something hacked together quickly outside of alacarte ... but i dont want such stuff in hardy
<RichEd> any more tech stuff ?
<ogra> stgraber, so whats the reaction of upstream (beyond being surprised) ?
<ogra> does he want your fixes ?
<ogra> is he aware that ltsp5 works different from 4.x ?
<stgraber> he wants to fix but he seems to be lacking of time
<ogra> well, he could start with just including your fixes :)
<stgraber> and the network bug is really weird (port open on a computer but not on another ...)
<ogra> that shouldnt take a major amount of time
 * RichEd is back in 5 min
<ogra> sounds like /hosts.allow/deny chime in ...
<ogra> (just a guess though)
<stgraber> indeed, but instead of using env vars as I'm currently doing it'd be better to fix it using the same parameters as ica itself
<stgraber> well, the weird thing is that doing a nmap -p 5800 localhost returns a value on my laptop and not on my test computer
<ogra> right
<stgraber> both running Hardy on amd64 ...
<stgraber> and I think it's the same bug causing the demo problem I had before (as looking at the debug messages it seems italc is unable to reach the local vnc server and then to broadcast our screen to the other computers, causing the crash I had)
<ogra> we should combine thin client manager and italc :P
<ogra> broadcasting was actually the only vnc function that works flawless there :)
<johnny> hmm.. i'm sad about having a whole another service to do this kinda thing
<johnny> i need to read more i suppose
<ogra> johnny, iTalc is supposed to replace TCM
<johnny> yes i know that
<stgraber> yes, especially as italc currently crashes when using the demo mode, it's not "just not working"
<ogra> as TCM has no maintainer
<johnny> but when i heard that it had it's own services
<johnny> i was suprised
<ogra> TCM has a client as well
<ogra> look in /etc/X11/Xsession.d if you have it installed
<stgraber> I don't think the iTalc bug is that hard to fix neither is the slight improvment I want (-ivsport and -isdport for italc as we have for ica), I just have no C++/QT knowledge
<ogra> (it was called scp (student control panel) before)
<stgraber> so it takes me a lot of time to figure out what's wrong and then to find a way to fix it :)
<ogra> stgraber, can we make it work out of the box with features disabled though ?
<stgraber> with the port problem I currently have, no
<ogra> hmm
<stgraber> with this bug, iTalc is just unable to contact its own ica (daemon) and any other daemon (the clients)
<ogra> then TCM should get some attention at least, we need at least oe tool to ship
<ogra> i'm inclined to just drop the VNC feature from TCM
<stgraber> I have found the problem and workarounded the other in only a couple of hours, so someone with C++ knowledge should be able to fix the bug easily
<ogra> all others dont have probs and i'd like to have some session control available
<stgraber> I'm not sure we really want to support tcm for 3 years :)
<ogra> how hackish is your workaround ?
<ogra> not sure we want to support a pre version of iTalc for three years either :)
<stgraber> not that much, it's just using a IVSPORT env var to send the ica port (as in our case the port is different for each client)
<stgraber> to have it done the proper way, the getenv() should be replaced by a command parameter (-ivsport)
<ogra> is it possible for the user to modify that ? or is it relatively safe ?
<ogra> i.e. if i set the var to something will italc respect that override ?
<ogra> (it shouldnt for safety reasons)
<ogra> could we have a wrapper script that forces a value ?
<ogra> so overrides arent possible
<stgraber> it'll connect on the port specified in the env var, if not it'll fallback to the default value
<ogra> sounds somehow solvable
<stgraber> my real problem is ica not listening to its ports ... the only thing I'm sure of is that it's not one of my patches that are causing that
<ogra> well, anyway, we should discuss tech details off meeting
<stgraber> indeed
<RichEd> can we move on to art then ?
<ogra> from my side we can
<RichEd> any more tech from anyone else ?
<johnny> uhmm? i don't know the protocols for these meetings, so i'll abstain until i can read some guidelines
<RichEd> our wallpaper volunteer (jill) made a start on a new desktop ... she sent samples to ogra and myself ...
<RichEd> johnny: jump in ...
<ogra> johnny, its parted in two hlafs
<RichEd> what would you like to chat about ?
<ogra> first is tech, second is community etc
<johnny> well, i was concerned about the fact that autologin was promoted, but never worked
<ogra> RichEd, as i said before johnny cared a lot for sabayon
<johnny> still care "ing" :)
<RichEd> we do tech / art / distro stuff in part 1 ... then onto web site community etc. in part 2
 * RichEd thanks johnny 
<ogra> johnny, there are patches in LP i'll add soon
<johnny> vagrantc put in a patch supposably
<ogra> that should fix it ....
<johnny> to ldm
<johnny> as of a few hours that is
<ogra> he pulled one from francis both, sbalneav and me werent happy about back then
<johnny> yeah, scott was gonna write a new one, but he disappeared
<ogra> but since scott didnt show up until yesterday i'm considering using that one
<ogra> there is still a lot of time for bugfixes
<johnny> oh.. scott is back?
<johnny> would it be feasible to have an ltsp meeting ?
<johnny> and then report back on the next ubuntu meeting
<ogra> (bugs can be fixed all the time during the release cycle)
<ogra> well, usually scott attends this meeting
<johnny> but i doubt warren or vagrantc does..
<ogra> since next time we'll have the late one (20:00 UTC i expect him to be here)
<ogra> i dont care about warren
<ogra> (form a distro maintainer POV)
<johnny> thus was speaking of ltsp in general
<ogra> well, if you want to organize a ltsp meeting and teh others agree we need one, go ahaed :)
<ogra> i'll fix the ltsp bugs along the way to hardy anyway
<johnny> ok
<johnny> so, anybody have any issues with sabayon they wanted to bring up in this forum?
<johnny> otherwise i'm done with tech for now until i can think onger
<johnny> longer*
<ogra> i think they are all on launchpad :)
<johnny> been there done that :)
<ogra> right
<johnny> even got some patches from redhat bugtracker
<ogra> i'll try to get the new upstream in this week ...
<johnny> still waiting for federico to return ,he just had a daughter
<ogra> but i want to look at upstreams solution for two patches they solved differently
<johnny> before deciding on the next step
<ogra> i didnt find the time fr that yet, but its on my list
<johnny> well, lemme know :)
<ogra> will do
<ogra> i guess you are subbed to the bugs
<ogra> ?
<johnny> bugs in general? or specific bugs?
<ogra> sabayon
<johnny> launchpad or gnome?
<ogra> launchpad
<ogra> i'll put my comments there
<johnny> ok
<ogra> so lets communicate through LP
<ogra> RichEd, stage is yours
<ogra> show us the bling :)
<RichEd> hi ...
<RichEd> our wallpaper volunteer (jill) made a start on a new desktop ... she sent samples to ogra and myself ...
<RichEd> she herself said they may be too busy and i agree
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> well, they might be good for a young desktop
<RichEd> they are very cluttered ... not like the ubuntu cleanness
<RichEd> ogra: as an optional, they are okay ... too much for a default though
<ogra> right
<RichEd> so if anyone has any artwork "theme" suggestions or ideas, i can get jill to think about ?
<RichEd> perhaps i should bounce off the mail lists
<RichEd> okay ... on to the naming issue i mentioned earlier ... Hobbsee & juliux your comments would be appreciated
<ogra> but also stgraber's and johnny's :)
<RichEd> it's been suggested that as we move towards the current edubuntu being an add-op on top of an ubuntu install:
<RichEd> " is edubuntu a true distro of its own, and does the naming still make sense ? "
<johnny> my impression from ogra was that it wont' be one
<RichEd> " would it be more accurate to call the Ubuntu Install with Edubuntu/Education Add on something like: Ubuntu Education Edition "
<RichEd> we've been asked to float those questions / views, and then have a good debate at the next meeting which is a community council one
<RichEd> my own view is that we could migrate the naming as follows:
<ogra> johnny, well, we wont let a brand vanish if there is a need for it :) currently the idea is to get both communities closer together and to loose the image of the childs distro ...
<RichEd> edubuntu 8.04 - ubuntu education edition
<RichEd> ubuntu 8.10 education edition (edubuntu)
<ogra> edu in ubuntu is more than kindergarden and elementary school, we'd like to reflect that
<RichEd> ubuntu 9.04 - education edition
<RichEd> ---
<johnny> somebody in the channel was asking for apps for middle schoolers
<nixternal> ooh, look what I found :)
<ogra> kdeedu :)
<ogra> nixternal, ?
<ogra> tell us ?
<RichEd> we don't want a huge debate now, we'll save that for next week, but any immediate thoughts or opinions from anyone to get onto the table ?
<johnny> i'm not familiar with the apps themselves , i am only in edubuntu because of the ltsp affiliation.. or at least that's how i got started
<nixternal> RichEd and ogra: I am updating the Edubuntu chapter btw for the book, so I will get with you both this week and torment you
<nixternal> I mean pick your brains :)
<ogra> great
<ogra> there wont be much change
<RichEd> nixternal: pick me a nice one please
<nixternal> except for LTSP going into Ubuntu Server :p
<nixternal> hehe RichEd
<Hobbsee> RichEd: it will be interesting to see hwo that goes, as kubuntu may end up doing the same
<johnny> i like the idea of helping education and linux tho
<ogra> nixternal, ubuntu-alternate :)
<ogra> -server has no desktop apps
<RichEd> Hobbsee: expand on that ?
<nixternal> err, ya alternate
<nixternal> sorry
<Hobbsee> RichEd: from a marketing perspective, it probably makes sense to keep ubuntu in the name - so ubuntu 8.10 education edition (edubuntu) would be my pick
 * Hobbsee needs to type faster!
<ogra> nixternal, but ltsp itself wont see much changes wrt configuration etc
<nixternal> groovy
<nixternal> what about KDE Edu? You guys need some work on it?
<Hobbsee> RichEd: at least in kubuntu, and i presume edubuntu as well, there are lots of questions on "so, should i install ubuntu or kubuntu", they think it requires different repos to run, aren't co installable, etc.
<ogra> main focus for ltsp is to make it the most stable and solid one we had yet
<nixternal> there will be a bug fix release in February
<RichEd> Hobbsee: thanks ... new people hearing about ubuntu do not alwayds get as far as finding or understanding edubuntu (especially in foreign language regions)
<ogra> nixternal, it needs additions to all its .desktop files
<RichEd> we think the new approach will lead them from ubuntu to the education add on more successfully
 * RichEd needs to get moving for another meeting ... but peope are welcome to mail me comments ...
<RichEd> i'
<ogra> apparently KDE apps dont use the StartupNotify setting .... but thats for off-meeting :)
<nixternal> ogra: OK, we can take a look at that after the meeting and it all worked out
<nixternal> ahh
<RichEd> I'll leave this window open and #edubuntu ... but need to move on
<RichEd> ogra: can you handle the wrap up from here on in ?
<ogra> is there anything left apart from "questions anyone ?" ?
<ogra> :)
<RichEd> yep .. that bit ...
<ogra> heh
<RichEd> bye all & thanks
<ogra> questions anyone ?
<Hobbsee> RichEd: i think you want to keep the "ubuntu" name, if you're going to remarket at all - ie, not edubuntu - make it known as ubuntu + blah.
<ogra> Hobbsee, for edubuntu that akes perfect sense ...
<ogra> i dont see it for kubuntu though
<Hobbsee> ogra: kubuntu is harder, but yes.
<ogra> edubuntu can be an addon to either desktop
<ogra> and thus doesnt actually need a system install CD
<ogra> thats the whole idea behind that change
<ogra> kubuntu will always want its own base CD
<johnny> until we all have dvd drives..
<ogra> instead of being any kind of addon
<johnny> but that will be a long time..
<ogra> johnny, no option for edu ... for the next ten years i guess
<ogra> anyway ...
<ogra> if theer are no other questions ....
<ogra> going once ...
<ogra> going twice ...
<Hobbsee> what's the answer to life, the universe and everything?
<ogra> 42
<Hobbsee> oh good
<Hobbsee> so not 37 then
<Daviey> tis 63
<ogra> anyway, adjourned ... (i was referring to serious questions rather :) )
<ogra> next meeting is wed at 20:00 UTC ... thanks all for attending
<Hobbsee> ogra: awww.  but i said iw as going to come in and disrupt your meeting, so i had to add it :)
<ogra> you waited quite long though
<ogra> not much to disturb anymore
<Hobbsee> i was distracted.  putting out spot fires.
<emgent> @now
<emgent> @schedule rome
<emgent> @schedule
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 30 Jan 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 30 Jan 21:00: Security Team | 30 Jan 22:00: Server Team | 01 Feb 21:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 23:30: Forum Council | 20 Feb 02:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 30 Jan 15:00: Security Team | 30 Jan 16:00: Server Team | 01 Feb 15:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 17:30: Forum Council | 19 Feb 20:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
 * pedro_ waves
<ogasawara> hi pedro_
<stgraber> hello
<pedro_> hello ogasawara, stgraber
<stgraber> ouch, what a good timing, just finished a call :)
<pedro_> jejeje
<nand> hi
<stgraber> hi nand
<ogasawara> so it seems heno is out sick for the meeting
<nand> I'm at work, not easy for me!
<nand> oh
<Mithrandir> hiya Leann, thanks for taking us to that place yesterday.
<ogasawara> Mithrandir: np :)  it was fun!
<liw> ogasawara, yeah, did you arrange for someone else to chair this meeting?
<ogasawara> liw:  nope
<ogasawara> liw:  I nominate you :)
<liw> bdmurray, are you there?
<ogasawara> liw:  he's at intel today
<bdmurray> liw: kind of I have to run though
<liw> ok
<liw> then we could start
<liw> I can chair, I just need to find the bot instructions
<Hobbsee> liw: use #startmeeting
<liw> right, found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot?highlight=%28mootbot%29
<liw> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:06. The chair is liw.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<liw> welcome to the QA team weekly meeting
<liw> agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<pedro_> woohoo!
<ogasawara> heh
<liw> [TOPIC] London sprint QA highlights
<MootBot> New Topic:  London sprint QA highlights
<liw> so, we had a distro team sprint in London last week, and that included the Canonical QA people; it wasn't a community event, but we should report the QA related highlights
<ogasawara> I've got a few things . . .
<liw> for me: I got some advice on using KVM, and discussed expanding automatic desktop testing to the graphical installer, and worked together with Marc Tardif to create a package based on his hwtest framework that will run packaged automated desktop tests
<liw> also, various people suggested including, in some form or another, automatic tests they have made, e.g., for security work
<ogasawara> as a team we drafted out SRU process, bug workflow, bug forwarding, re-organizing the Debugging* wiki pages
<liw> oh, and I made changes to the piuparts testing harness to provide a summary that can be included in the developer weather report
<pedro_> And also we verified some of the outstanding SRU's ;-)
<ogasawara> oh and went through the iso-testing bugs
<liw> anything else?
<pedro_> one of the new things that we are going to introduce are the new desktop hug days based on of course desktop packages they will be held the Thursdays so stay tune
<stgraber> oh, so we'll have two hug days ?
<pedro_> yes sr
<stgraber> the first one being for the base system and the second for the GUI apps ?
<pedro_> the second one is supposed to be based on Desktop apps like alacarte, evolution, nautilus, etc we have a few hundreds bugs there that need love
<pedro_> and yeah the first one is more base system but includes another GUI apps like openoffice.org
<stgraber> good, let's hope we'll have as many people for the desktop hugday as we do for the current one
<liw> anything else?
<liw> if so, let's get back to this point later
<liw> [TOPIC] Nautilus bug day
<MootBot> New Topic:  Nautilus bug day
<liw> pedro? ogasawara? (assuming bdmurray ran away already)
<pedro_> the nautilus bug day went pretty fine we have some stats at the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20080129
<liw> cool
<pedro_> a couple of new faces helped out
<liw> excellent
<liw> anything else about this?
<pedro_> yes the good thing is that the bugs that we need confirmation to be fixed with nautilus-gio a good portion are fixed
<pedro_> so thanks to all the brave bug testers ;-)
<liw> indeed :)
<liw> [TOPIC] Alpha 4 testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 4 testing
<liw> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2008-January/000371.html is the announcement for Alpha 4, from yesterday, so Alpha 4 should happen tomorrow
<stgraber> Do we have candidates ready for testing ?
<stgraber> I have done some netboot testing yesterday with good results
<liw> how are we set up for that? is everything in order to start testing tomorrow once the ISOs are released?
<stgraber> the only problem being the new restricted-manager being buggy (I had to install my nvidia driver by hand)
<stgraber> I have set "Hardy Alpha 4" as the default milestone on the tracker
<stgraber> so any website admin can now add the builds (pitti and slangasek know how to do so)
<Hobbsee> ich auch
<liw> stgraber, so the iso tracker is ready for everything? that should mean we're ready to start testing, yes?
<stgraber> yes
<liw> excellent
<liw> [TOPIC] QA-Poll beta
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA-Poll beta
<nand> oh, my turn.
<stgraber> nand: stage is yours :)
<nand> Well, I was hoping to see heno today for the domains names!
<nand> otherwise everything is ready
<nand> for upload and a private testing period
<stgraber> apart from the fact that we need to merge devel with trunk again (which may take some time) :)
<nand> I just need confirmation for the subdomains to tweak my .htaccess scripts :)
<nand> yes :)
<nand> This WE, if you are available
<stgraber> What I also wanted to ask here about that is also : Who will be part of the private beta ?
<nand> sry, pple around
<nand> I'd say the QA team
<nand> and some others... But we cannot publicy announce it yet I guess.
<stgraber> the idea is not to have people advertising it through blog posts or things like that as we may have to change some bits
<nand> yes.
<nand> So I'd say the team and trusted friends
<liw> is the private beta expected to last long?
<stgraber> I personally thought ot : Canonical QA team + nand + evand (he was beta tester for the first implementation of qa-poll) + davmor2 + myself
<stgraber> liw: my plan was from Tribe-4 till Tribe-5
<nand> the time for me to fix everything you find :) I hope no more than two weeks
<stgraber> liw: public release happening short after Tribe-5
<liw> that's pretty short
<liw> which is good
<stgraber> that's a 2-3 weeks window, good if we don't find any major bug/lack
<nand> yes. I'd really like it to be released at least two months before the hardy release, to gather a good lot of ideas
<nand> yes
<stgraber> anyway, I think we'll need Canonical's approval for the final release as it was planned to advertise it quite a bit (it's not a devel tool)
<nand> I guess so
<liw> anything else about the qa-poll beta?
<nand> nothing else to add.
<nand> stgraber: let's see this week end about it?
<liw> in that case...
<liw> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:36.
<liw> whee
<pedro_> thanks all
<stgraber> nand: works for me
<stgraber> nand: I'll need to check that all the patches I have done in the trunk are also done in the devel branch to avoid regressions
<stgraber> nand: I think I did them the same time in both, but I would like to be sure of that before merging
 * liw runs off to an irl meeting *sigh*
<nand> ok. See ya this WE then!
<stgraber> liw: have a good irl meeting
 * nand is back to work
<propagandist> @schedule EST
<ubotu> Schedule for EST: 30 Jan 15:00: Security Team | 30 Jan 16:00: Server Team | 01 Feb 15:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 17:30: Forum Council | 19 Feb 20:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Security Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 30 Jan 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
<keescook> @now
<emgent> heya keescook
<emgent> :)
<keescook> hiya emgent
<keescook> it's 20:00 so I'll get us started...
 * jdstrand waves
<keescook> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:01. The chair is keescook.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<emgent> ok :)
<keescook> so who all is here for the security team meeting?  So far I know emgent and jdstrand are listening.  :)
<propagandist> me
<keescook> hi propagandist!
 * propagandist waves
<dendrobates> \o/
 * zul is lurking
<keescook> I've started the initial outline for the security team wiki area
<keescook> [URL] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam
<keescook> it's nearly empty except for the agenda
<jdstrand> heh
<emgent> :)
<keescook> [URL] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<keescook> well, given it's our first meeting, I figure we should all give a quick intro about ourselves.
<keescook> I'm part of the "main" security team (and a Canonical employee).  With jdstrand, I'm responsible for keep packages in main for all the supported releases free of CVEs.  :)
<keescook> additionally, I do some coordination of proactive security development work in the devel release of Ubuntu.
<keescook> who wants to go next?  :)
<jdstrand> o/
<crimsun> ('lo, sorry about the tardiness)
<keescook> neversfelde, jason_tang, crimsun: all here for the security team meeting?
 * Mithrandir lurks
<keescook> np, we're just getting started
<crimsun> keescook: aye.
<jdstrand> as keescook said, I am a part of the 'main' security team and a Canonical employee
<emgent> :)
<jason_tang> jason_tang -> jtang@tresys.com
<propagandist> I'm an employee of Tresys Technology and work generally with the upstream SELinux. My current project is to supply Hardy with SELinux support ;o)
<keescook> neversfelde, jason_tang, crimsun: agenda is here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<emgent> I'm a member of Motu-swat, and i'm in MOTU mentoring.
<emgent> keescook, sorry i should reset router. see u 2 mins.
<keescook> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam
<keescook> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<keescook> (was using the wrong command...)
<keescook> emgent: okay
<keescook> cool, thanks, anyone else want to introduce themselves?
<dendrobates> oooo me
<crimsun> sure.  dan chen, crimsun at ubuntu dot com.
<dendrobates> I am also a Canonical employee.  I manage the server and security team , of which, jdstrand and keescook are a part.
<keescook> crimsun: what things are you generally interested in from a security perspective?  everyone else so far, I can guess at.  :)
<crimsun> keescook: development processes, IDS/IPS, auditing generally.
<keescook> emgent: you're up.  can you give people a quick overview about what you're interested in?
<keescook> _emgent: ^^
<_emgent> back.
<emgent> sure
<emgent> My main interest are: auditing generally and penetration tests
<keescook> okay, cool.  Let's move to the first item on the agenda
<keescook> [TOPIC] CVE status
<MootBot> New Topic:  CVE status
<keescook> one of the things jdstrand, Fujitsu, and I have been working on is getting the Ubuntu CVE tracker looking good
<keescook> at present, the tracker is in bzr, and we're doing well keeping up with things.
<keescook> there's always more work to do, but for anyone interested in issue tracking, check it out:
<keescook> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-cve-tracker/
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-cve-tracker/
<keescook> pretty soon we should have the finishing touches on an HTML export of the data (jdstrand has done some great work on this)
<emgent> cool
<jdstrand> I'd like to mention that the ubuntu-cve-tracker covers all packages, not just main
<keescook> yes, very good point.
<keescook> some of it is a bit out of date -- one tool that needs to be (re)written is a changelog-scanner that can see when CVEs are fixed on upload.
<keescook> [IDEA[ finish changelog scanner to mark closed CVEs
<keescook> [IDEA] finish changelog scanner to mark closed CVEs
<MootBot> IDEA received:  finish changelog scanner to mark closed CVEs
<emgent> +1
<keescook> :)
<joejaxx> :)
<keescook> that's all I wanted to mention about the tracker.  it basically drives the security update work, so it's a good place to look for things or check on stuff.
<keescook> (and I want to start moving a little more quickly, since we've got a hard-stop at 21:00)
<keescook> moving on...
<keescook> [TOPIC] AppArmor progress
<MootBot> New Topic:  AppArmor progress
<keescook> this is a bit redundant with the server team status possibly, but I thought I'd mention it quickly here too.
<keescook> as it stands, the AppArmor infrastructure is stable and working in Hardy.  There are a few tweaks pending in the next kernel upload, but other than that, we should now match what SuSE will ship next.
<keescook> profile creation work continues -- I will defer to the Server Team meeting for that discussion.
<keescook> any questions or thoughts on AppArmor?
<emgent> nope, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppArmor is ok :)
<keescook> sounds good.
<joejaxx> i am glad we are matching up with SuSE :)
<keescook> [TOPIC] SELinux progress
<MootBot> New Topic:  SELinux progress
<keescook> we've got 2 tresys folks here, so I'll let them discuss this one.  :)
<propagandist> ;o}
<propagandist> We've updated the packages for most of selinux upstream. I've put them here:
<propagandist> [LINK] https://code.launchpad.net/~calebcase/+junk/selinux-support
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://code.launchpad.net/~calebcase/+junk/selinux-support
<propagandist> The blueprint for selinux support is available at:
<propagandist> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/selinux-support
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/selinux-support
<propagandist> The wiki was updated today with some more infomration about our direction here:
<propagandist> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardySELinux
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardySELinux
<keescook> are these packages patched versions of what's in Debian, or total replacements?
<propagandist> They are total replacements.
<propagandist> The debian maintainer is somewhat mia at the moment.
<keescook> okay.  (I see the changelog builds on the Debian package -- that's good)
<emgent> :)
<keescook> [LINK] http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~calebcase/+junk/selinux-support/annotate/calebcase%40gmail.com-20080129123710-usfimgmeob938hj5?file_id=changelog-20080128164716-qc9exv0y4qt0xf39-216
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~calebcase/+junk/selinux-support/annotate/calebcase%40gmail.com-20080129123710-usfimgmeob938hj5?file_id=changelog-20080128164716-qc9exv0y4qt0xf39-216
<keescook> I'm on holiday next week, but I'll get these reviewed (and in theory uploaded) before feature freeze
<keescook> [ACTION] keescook to review selinux packaging work
<MootBot> ACTION received:  keescook to review selinux packaging work
<keescook> I'd happily welcome other eyes on it too.  :)
<propagandist> Up till recently the focus was to get all the packages updated to upstream. That seems to be mostly done now, and we've moved to creating the 'selinux' package and testing them out. We're also updating the security policy.
<keescook> propagandist: have you posted any of the package builds to REVU?  That might be handy too.
<crimsun> I'm happy to look over them, too, since my work is directly related.
<propagandist> keescook: will do
<joejaxx> :)
<keescook> [ACTION] crimsum to review selinux packaging work
<MootBot> ACTION received:  crimsum to review selinux packaging work
<propagandist> the more eyes the better
<keescook> [ACTION] propagandist to post selinux packaging to REVU
<keescook> agreed
<MootBot> ACTION received:  propagandist to post selinux packaging to REVU
<emgent> cool
<keescook> great job!  I'm really happy to see this moving forward at a fast clip.  :)
<joejaxx> :D
 * joejaxx is too :)
<propagandist> ;o}
<propagandist> There is one issue with ubuntu-standard
<keescook> propagandist: once things are uploaded, would you be able to write a "here's how to use/test SELinux" email for ubuntu-devel and ubuntu-hardened?
<keescook> propagandist: what's the issue?
<joejaxx> keescook: i was just about to ask that
<joejaxx> :)
<propagandist> it is recommending apparmor-utils, which if you try to install a conflicting package with apparmor attempts to uninstall standard
<propagandist> It may be better for it to recommend security-utils and have apparmor-utils provide it
<keescook> propagandist: right, I remember this bit now -- I like the meta-package solution that was proposed
<propagandist> kk
<propagandist> sure thing on the email
<crimsun> oh, meaning virtual package?  Sorry, I was looking for a security-meta.
<propagandist> although there is a short quick and dirty on the wiki
<keescook> crimsun: sorry, yes, virtual package; my bad.  :)
<propagandist> yes a meta package for linux-security would be ideal for handling the switching
<keescook> propagandist: between an PPA and REVU, it should be possible to make item 1 on the "Quick and Dirty" list very easy for people.
<keescook> [ACTION] keescook to investigate virtual package for security utils (apparmor/selinux agnostic) to not conflict with ubuntu-standard
<MootBot> ACTION received:  keescook to investigate virtual package for security utils (apparmor/selinux agnostic) to not conflict with ubuntu-standard
<propagandist> keescook: kk, i've been working on putting things into my PPA
<keescook> great! :)
<keescook> any other notes on SELinux?  (/me rushes forward in the agenda...)
<propagandist> i think thats it for now
<keescook> [TOPIC] Hardening wrapper testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardening wrapper testing
<jdstrand> thanks for your good work on this propagandist
<keescook> okay, I sent an email about the new compile-time hardening options wrapper
<propagandist> jdstrand: thanks ;o)
<keescook> [LINK] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-January/024958.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-January/024958.html
<keescook> and I've been coordinating with Debian as well (Moritz announced the cousin project for hardening in Debian this week)
<keescook> I'd really love it if people doing builds could test the wrapper (and obviously the resulting builds)
<keescook> does anyone have any ideas about ways we can motivate its use, and/or track its progress?
<crimsun> one way could be to have it hook into pbuilder.
<keescook> crimsun: in what way?  hooking it to dpkg-buildpackage had been discussed, but no one wanted it to be a hard Depends or anything.
<keescook> I'd love to see about getting a full archive rebuild done with it enabled.  This was done in Debian which was very educational.
<jdstrand> keescook: IIRC this is going to be turned on by default in hardy+1, correct?
<crimsun> keescook: assuming hardening-wrapper is promoted into main, have the pbuilder package depend on it, create a separate hooks subdirectory.  This would allow people to enable it for testing by passing the pbuilder hook* options.
<keescook> jdstrand: assuming it doesn't melt all the builds, yes.  Part of getting it tested in Hardy is to make doko happy
<jdstrand> oh, so we are turning it on for hardy builds, at least for a while?
<keescook> crimsun: interesting -- I don't use pbuilder so I'm unfamiliar with the hook options.
<keescook> jdstrand: no, I mean, the package is available for people to test with
<crimsun> keescook: since a lot of people should^Ware using pbuilder, it would be a fairly unintrusive method of selectively enabling it.
<jdstrand> ah, that's what I thought
<crimsun> should be*/are
<keescook> crimsun: can you write a few notes about that to the wiki page for it?
<keescook> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/HardeningWrapper
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/HardeningWrapper
<crimsun> keescook: sure
<keescook> cool, I'll add some notes about it for sbuild
<keescook> [ACTION] crimsun to add pbuilder notes to wiki, keescook to add sbuild notes to wiki
<MootBot> ACTION received:  crimsun to add pbuilder notes to wiki, keescook to add sbuild notes to wiki
<emgent> good. :)
<keescook> has anyone actually used the wrapper yet besides me?  :)
<keescook> if you haven't, please pick you favorite app and give it a try.  :)  inkscape builds/runs fine for me.  :)
 * jdstrand is ashamed to say he has not yet
<keescook> hehe
<jdstrand> (but will)
<keescook> okay, moving on
<emgent> hhaha me too.
<emgent> :)
<keescook> [TOPIC] organized penetration testing and auditing
<MootBot> New Topic:  organized penetration testing and auditing
<keescook> emgent has been doing some great work poking at the edges of various ubuntu services, and proposed a formalized team to do this kind of work into the future
<keescook> emgent: what sort of plans do you have?  I have a few notes about it, but figured we should hear from you first.
<\sh> grmpf...I'm late...but I'm there at least
<emgent> well, i created a wiki page and launchpad group
<keescook> \sh: hi!
<joejaxx> emgent: do you have a link to that? :)
<emgent> but i dont know if name is good and if it's good add to MOTU-SWAT branch.
<\sh> keescook, evening...sorry for being late :)
<emgent> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHackersTeam
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuHackersTeam
<keescook> \sh: no problem -- that's what IRC logs are for.  :)
<emgent> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-hackers
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-hackers
<keescook> emgent: so, one of the things that came up on MOTU was people not wanting to confuse the term "hackers".
<emgent> i select this name because i see GNU structure
<keescook> I don't have any strong opinion myself, but in the interests of clarity, what do you think about calling the subteam "ubuntu-pentest" or something like that?
<joejaxx> perhaps use PenTest ?
<joejaxx> keescook: yeap :D
<keescook> joejaxx: we are of one mind! :)
<joejaxx> keescook: :D
<crimsun> right, "hackers" is far too overloaded.
<emgent> and GNU have Hackers Team, but the name it'snt important
<Mithrandir> ubuntu-pokers.
<keescook> I've never tried -- can LP team names be changed?
<keescook> Mithrandir: heheh
<joejaxx> keescook: yes i believe so
<emgent> Mithrandir, lol
<joejaxx> lol
<Mithrandir> suitably ambigious. :-)
<keescook> Mithrandir: then we'll need to buy chips and deal cards.
<keescook> hehe
<joejaxx> lol :P
<keescook> another topic was auditing as an area of work for the pentest team.
<emgent> What would be the best name, and who is interested in contributing?
<keescook> I tend to view successfully audit work as "grey boxing" -- looking at both source and behavior.  if you're looking at behavior, you're a pentester.
<keescook> emgent: I'd vote for "ubuntu-pentest".  I'm highly interested, but low on time.
<emgent> ubuntu-pentest or ubuntu-fox ? :-)
<joejaxx> yeah i would put my vote -pentest as well
 * Mithrandir votes for -pokers
<keescook> let's go with ubuntu-pentest for now?  emgent can you adjust it?
<emgent> keescook, sure.
<emgent> but i'd like Mithrandir idea :P
<keescook> [ACTION] emgent to rename ubuntu-hackers team to ubuntu-pentest
<MootBot> ACTION received:  emgent to rename ubuntu-hackers team to ubuntu-pentest
<keescook> another area of concern is making sure we attract the _right_ kind of people for the pentest work.
<joejaxx> keescook: yeah that is the other thing :(
<joejaxx> we do not want to attract the wrong crowd
<keescook> emgent has done a great job with private disclosure, and I think making sure this remains the focus, it will be sucessful
<emgent> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-pentest is online.
<emgent> :)
<keescook> so, making sure the language is unambigious on the wiki page will be good.
<joejaxx> yeap
<emgent> keescook, just a moment :)
<keescook> also, the LP team has asked that poking at LP be done via staging.launchpad.net just in case something would break production services.
<keescook> equally so, anything that may have bad effects should be run past the #is staff first
<jdstrand> ok good
<emgent> ok cool.
<Mithrandir> keescook: ITYM #canonical-sysadmin?
<crimsun> literally #is, or #canonical-sysadmins?
<jdstrand> I would like to say that the language should be *very* clear
<keescook> Mithrandir: right, sorry.  #canonical-sysadmins is right
<\sh> keescook, what about a general "you are allowed to break stuff on a commercial website", for the members of the team? thinking of the legal view of all those penetration tests
<jdstrand> this isn't a honeynet challenge or anything
<keescook> \sh: yeah, agreed.
<\sh> keescook, regarding all the nifty lawyers out there, it's necessary to address those issues first for non-canonical members :)
<joejaxx> :)
<keescook> let's get some language proposed, and we can approve it for the next meeting?
 * mathiaz waves at keescook and sits at the back for the first security team meeting :D
<jdstrand> if the members of the team are allowed to break stuff, then that needs to by a moderated team-- is it?
<joejaxx> sounds good
<emgent> keescook, +1
<keescook> okay, 5 minutes left...
<\sh> jdstrand, hopefully yes...
<joejaxx> jdstrand: the team is restricted at the moment
<joejaxx> i just looked
<emgent> keescook, i open this ? or restricted ?
<jdstrand> ok
<crimsun> (I was thinking to have emgent and Canonical employees be admins.)
<keescook> emgent: leave it restricted -- we want to make sure people understand the "do no harm" ideals
<keescook> [TOPIC] next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  next meeting
<emgent> keescook, ok.
<keescook> what do people think of same time/place in two weeks?
<crimsun> WFM.
<joejaxx> keescook: sounds good to me :)
<jdstrand> time is good for me
<\sh> keescook, around 20 UTC is a good time :) so yes :)
<emgent> +1
<propagandist> good for me too
<keescook> \o/  that's set.
<keescook> okay, everyone please feel free to add agenda items to the wiki page (and fill out missing sections of the wiki)
<\sh> crimsun, you add something for sbuild how to enable the wrapper? :)
<crimsun> \sh: kees will; I'll work on pbuilder.
<\sh> crimsun, ok...other way around :)
<emgent> keescook, two questions:
<keescook> emgent: sure
<crimsun> thanks, everyone!
<emgent> 1) it's possible drop and register #ubuntu-security?
<keescook> emgent: yes, I think we should do this, and probably start a mailing list too
<keescook> [ACTION] keescook to poke irc ops to get #ubuntu-security online
<MootBot> ACTION received:  keescook to poke irc ops to get #ubuntu-security online
<emgent> 2) it's possible add ubuntu-security@lists.ubuntu.com ?
<mathiaz> keescook: couldn't ubuntu-hardened be used for that ?
<keescook> mathiaz: possibly... good point
<keescook> emgent: is that okay with you?  the channel is pretty low-volume at the moment
<emgent> ubuntu-security it's ok, we can add all security project this.
<jdstrand> #ubuntu-hardened needs some life ;)
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
<keescook> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:00.
<emgent> motu-swat, security and ubuntu-pentest.
<keescook> okay, we gotta get outta the way for the next meeting.  :)   yup, we should list all the "sub-teams" on the wiki
<joejaxx> :)
<keescook> thanks everyone for coming!!  yay first meeting!  :)
<propagandist> ;o)
<emgent> :)
<emgent> thanks keescook
<joejaxx> keescook: :D
<mathiaz> all right folks ! Let's get started with the server meeting
<dendrobates> hello all
 * keescook switches hats
<emgent> hehehe :)
<zul> hello
<joejaxx> hi
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 21:03. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> The agenda for today is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Start a Mentoring program
<MootBot> New Topic:  Start a Mentoring program
<mathiaz> So I'd like to talk about starting a mentoring program for the server team
<nxvl_work> it would be great
<nxvl_work> so more people can be involved on the team
<mathiaz> The MOTU team and the Documentation have similar programs in order to attract more contributors
<nxvl_work> (and i can get a little help starting :P)
<ScottK2> The MOTU program has not, in my opinion, been a resounding success.
<keescook> mathiaz: would it be joined to MOTU mentoring in some way, or is this above and beyond "regular" MOTU mentoring?
 * ScottK2 doesn't really like it.
<soren> ScottK2: Why?
<mathiaz> keescook: it wouldn't be related to the MOTU mentoring process.
<ScottK2> Because it divides the community up.
<mathiaz> there are different activities that can be mentored in the server team, not only packaging
<faulkes-> I think it would be of value (as I'm new here), getting involved would make it easier for new people
<soren> ScottK2: Not "why wasn't it a success", but "why don't you like it"?
<ScottK2> Right
<mathiaz> like bug triagging or documentation
<ScottK2> There are separate mentoring lists, etc and so people go there and don't get known in the community.
<ScottK2> It raises the barrier to entry on the regular MOTU ML/IRC.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: I don't think we should copy exactly what has been done for MOTU
<ScottK2> OK.
<mathiaz> I like the way the documentation team is doing it.
 * ScottK2 isn't familiar with that.
<mathiaz> I like also the concept of the MOTU reception.
<sommer> I was just going to mention the doc team's mentoring
<soren> ScottK2: I see what you saying about dividing the community, but I think a server specific mentoring program might lure a different demographic to help us out.
<mathiaz> the documentation team requires potential candidates to sent out an email to the ubuntu-doc to ask for a mentor.
<Daviey> Who is the target audience for a mentoring program?
<mathiaz> I wonder if the MOTU reception system would be better
<ScottK2> Additionally, the existance of a mentoring program leads to people believing it's required to start contributing.
<mathiaz> Daviey: people that want to get involved in the Server Team but don't really know how
<ScottK2> mathiaz: That's the start of dividing the community.
<soren> How about if we "market" an Ubuntu Server mentoring program that is really part of the regular motu mentoring program, but we assign server-types as mentors? It wouldn't have to be totally separate.
<nxvl_work> mathiaz: on the MOTU they have a track of who is mentoring who, and a queue of the available mentors
<ScottK2> Unless you're in the mentoring program you have no idea who is there.  It's completely separate.
<mathiaz> some people know exactly what they wanna do, others not really.
<Daviey> mathiaz: yes, other than social aspects of how the team works, how to contribute etc - i mean on a technical level, what would the mentor recieve?
<mathiaz> soren: linking the mentoring program to the MOTU would focus mentees on packaging
<mathiaz> I think the server mentoring program should have broader scope
<soren> mathiaz: Not necessarily. The MOTU mentoring program isn't exactly a static entity.
<mathiaz> As I already said: documentation, bug triagging, etc..
<\sh> mathiaz, I think you need a focus on people who are dealing with ubuntu/debian servers in real world environments...
<nxvl_work> mathiaz: but you can ask the motu-mentors team to manage a second queue for server team
<mathiaz> soren: IIUC MOTU mentoring is about packaging
<soren> So far, it has been focused on getting new packagers on board, but it's open to people who just want to help fixing bugs here and there.
<ScottK2> In my experience anyone who is afraid to ask a question via ML or IRC isn't likely to be much help in the long run.
<nxvl_work> mathiaz: no, it isn't
<mathiaz> soren: ok - I missed that change of focus then.
<nxvl_work> mathiaz: it is about packaging, community, and all the aspects of the ubuntu-developing
<soren> My point is:
<nxvl_work> but also a mentor is not always behind you saying what to do, just put goals on you and is there is you need some help
<soren> We can advertise a server mentoring program..
<soren> if people sign up for it, we'd have people mentoring them.
<soren> but
<\sh> soren, you mean we need sysadmins filing bugs, knowing eventually how to fix the issue etc. not the ubuntu desktop user using a local apache2 on his/her homemachine
<soren> it could be part of the MOTU mentoring program. It wouldn't have to be completely separate from it.
<nxvl_work> soren: i will be the first one signed up XP
<nxvl_work> XD
<soren> If we find that Ubuntu would benefit from a change to the MOTU mentoring process, we can just propose it.
<ScottK2> nxvl_work: What would you hope to get out of it you can't get already?
<nxvl_work> ScottK2: good point :S
<mathiaz> May be we can advertise the MOTU mentoring process on the ServerTeam pages then
<ScottK2> Is a serious question.
<ScottK2> mathiaz: To what benifit?
<soren> I'd love to see the mentoring program expand to have domain specific branches as well.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: get more people aware of this program
<nxvl_work> mmm
<mathiaz> soren: aggred - that's my point.
<ScottK2> OK.
<mathiaz> people come to Ubuntu using different paths
<ScottK2> I'll say I'm against it because I don't think it helps.
<nxvl_work> ok, about the cuestion of ScottK2, i find a mentoring program usefull for new developers that have really noob cuestions and they will not ask on the ML
<soren> People might not be looking to "become a MOTU", but just "want to help out with server stuff". It's not obvious at first sight that one implies the other.
<mathiaz> so the earlier they have signs about how to contribute the better
<nxvl_work> BUT
<mathiaz> ScottK2: but I aggree with you that we shouldn't duplicate processes.
<nxvl_work> i'm also agree with ScottK2 that they can ask on the ML and IRC, as i have done se far, and is the same
<mathiaz> ScottK2: If the MOTU mentoring can be used for server-oriented folks, I'm all for it.
<nxvl_work> there is always someone that helps
<mathiaz> soren: exactly.
<ScottK2> The problem is that once you push 'noob questions' off on a mentoring program, the barrier to entry just becomes higher and the problem gets works.
<soren> ScottK2: How do you figure that?
<nxvl_work> i think it will be better to participate on the MOTU mentoring program and teach server specific things for the ones who are interested on it
<faulkes-> to interject, asking a question on IRC or an ML does not itself imply any commitment to the team, it's usually people looking for an answer to a problem they have
<nxvl_work> starting from packaging
<\sh> mathiaz, would you like to explain "server-oriented folks" to me? people having problems with the linux kernel on ubuntu-server are "server oriented" or "kernel oriented"? just asking for clarification?
<ScottK2> soren: People don't ask basic questions because no one else does and they are afraid to look stupid.  The more those questions get asked elsewhere, the more people are afraid.
<mathiaz> \sh: by server-oriented, I mean people that have an interest in server related software
<mathiaz> \sh: mainly sys admin in buisness and so on
<ScottK2> Segragating new people off on another channel doesn't create more resources to answer questions.
<soren> ScottK2: Well, some people make sure that the tone is #ubuntu-motu isn't always as friendly as one would like. If another place that is specifically meant for newbie questions existed, people who are afraid can just ask there. I don't see the problem.
<mathiaz> they're not necessarly interested in doing packaging work. Their server experience could be helpfull in other areas
<\sh> mathiaz, so the real problem is, that sysadmins using ubuntu on a server are not knowing about  how to deal with a bug, e.g. filing bugs or where to push a bugfix to...right?
<faulkes-> or add documentation / implementation guides
<mathiaz> \sh: no.. That's not what I meant. I'm trying to get more contributors on board.
<ScottK2> soren: OK.  We'll have to agree to disagree then.
<nxvl_work> soren: but as ScottK2 says, MOTU is tu separete, there is #ubuntu-classroom channel, motu-mentors list, so it's kind of saying newbies here, people who know there
<mathiaz> \sh: how can we turn them from bug reported (for ex) to bug fixer
<soren> If the alternative is that they just stay away...
<nxvl_work> mathiaz: using more the "mentoring offered" option for example is a good place to start
<mathiaz> ok - so to get tings moving, I think we should get in touch with the MOTU mentoring program to see if we can colaborate on this.
<ScottK2> My experience when people have PM'ed me with questions that they thougth were too basic for the channel is that I asked them to work on channel so others could benifit from the answers and it was all fine.
<nxvl_work> if a new contributor comes to the LP page, clicks on mentoring offered and only sees 4 options, they walk away
<mathiaz> I'll talk with dholbach about it.
<nxvl_work> and thats not what we want
<faulkes-> maybe I can put this into perspective a bit, like I said, I'm new, I'm looking to get involved, however, having gone over the wiki, the team pages and what not, there is still quite a bit which eludes me from the perspective of "how do I specifically get involved with the server side of things"
<ScottK2> soren: I think the alternative is to make the main channel of communication more open, not to make new ones.
<\sh> mathiaz, the normal case for sysadmins dealing with bugs/problems on server based linux distros is: a) they know how to file bugs into the respective bug reporting tool b) they know how to create patches c) they know how to package software for the OS of their choice...therefore we have only to deal with people, who are not falling into the sysadmin case...therefore we need to find people of the MOTU basement who are interested in working on serv
<\sh> er-related packages full-time
<soren> ScottK2: I'd love to hear your ideas about that.
<faulkes-> ScotK2: I would agree there, I don't think a #server-mentor or what not channel would be required
<soren> Agreed.
<mathiaz> faulkes-: would it help to have a mentor for the server team to help you get started ?
<faulkes-> mathiaz: with specific reference to dealing with ubuntu based server issues and needs, yes
<nxvl_work> we need to start making the communication channels more open to new contributors/basic questions
<ScottK2> faulkes-: What keeps you from asking more questions on #ubuntu-server so you know better how to help out?
<mathiaz> faulkes-: Is the Roadmap page to daunting ? Or the GettingInvolved page to general ?
<soren> It doesn't have to be much more than just a notice on the wiki page that people can contact someone if they want to get involved. That someone can then be the mentor (or assign someone else to be the mentor), but it'd be part of the motu mentoring program.
<nxvl_work> for example running QA sessions on the #ubuntu-server channel
 * nealmcb returns home
<soren> hi, nealmcb.
 * mathiaz waves at nealmcb 
<soren> nxvl_work: That could work.
<mathiaz> Ok - let's get moving. I wanted to start a discussion. There are a lot of idea about it.
<faulkes-> Scottk2: nothing, I waited for the meeting as it was an item on the agenda
<nxvl_work> BUT, we need to be carefull to make all the activities on the daily communication channels, not on new ones
<ScottK2> OK.
<ScottK2> +1 to nxvl_work
<mathiaz> I'll send an email to ubunut-server to raise this question and get dholbach in the loop.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to send an email about a mentoring program proposal to ubuntu-server
 * sommer wants ScottK2 to be his mentor
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to send an email about a mentoring program proposal to ubuntu-server
<nxvl_work> ok, let's discuss it on the list
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<mathiaz> Last meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080123
<ScottK2> sommer: I'm always glad to answer questions and help out, but I'm not signing up for anything formal.
<sommer> heh... just trying to through in some levity
<mathiaz> soren: any news from UWN ?
<soren> Er.. I'm writing my interview right now, actually :)
<soren> It'll most likely be in the next edition.
<mathiaz> soren: great !
<mathiaz> other than that, I think all the action have been done (or will be reviewed later on)
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> zul: you've a look at a lot of bugs
<zul> yep..
<zul> most of them are in one state or another
<mathiaz> zul: how is samba doing ?
 * soren hugs zul
<zul> mathiaz: getting there most of its waiting to hear back from users
<mathiaz> zul: I mean on the bug front
 * zul high fives soren
<mathiaz> should we target another package ?
<zul> i dont think so at this point we should talk to slangslek of course though
<dendrobates> mathiaz: openldap perhaps
<ScottK2> Make it talk with db4.6?
<zul> isnt that a performance issue?
<ScottK2> Actually there's an upstream db4.6 issue in that
<ScottK2> Yes.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: opendlap is already on the Roadmap.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: May be we should link to all the openldap packages (openldap2.2, openldap2.3).
<mathiaz> I though about openssh
<mathiaz> it's never been on the Roadmap
<dendrobates> mathiaz: I just want to remind everyone since new openldap bugs are pouring in since the update to 2.4
<zul> #69948 looks interesting for openldap
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to update the bug triagger section of the roadmap to highlight openldap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to update the bug triagger section of the roadmap to highlight openldap
<mathiaz> On the packaging front, there is apache2 stuff.
<mathiaz> I had a look at SNI support for apache2 and got it working.
 * nealmcb hugs mathiaz
<mathiaz> Unfortunately openssl has to be recompiled to enable tls extension.
<ScottK2> Someone ought to look at http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=libapache2-mod-authnz-external too.
<zul> its already in universe
<mathiaz> according to the openssl debian maintainer it may require a abi bump
<soren> mathiaz: "may"? Where's the patch?
<mathiaz> soren: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=462596
<ubotu> Debian bug 462596 in openssl "openssl: Please include support for tls extensions / server name indication" [Wishlist,Open]
<mathiaz> soren: there isn't any patch for openssl. it's just a configure option at build that has to be added.
<mathiaz> soren: but to get apache2 working with SNI, I first had to rebuild openssl, install it and rebuild apache2.
<mathiaz> soren: otherwise apache2 would be compiled with SNI enabled.
<soren> mathiaz: Right. As slangasek says: the structs are exposed in public header files, so changing them means an ABI bump.
<soren> mathiaz: for openssl, that is.
<mathiaz> soren: yop - so I'm not sure what would be the impact at this time of the release cycle.
<soren> mathiaz: slangasek would be the person to ask.
<mathiaz> soren: ok. I'll talk to him then.
<soren> (He's the release manager in case anyone doesn't know)
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to talk with slangasek about an ABI bump in openssl for hardy
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to talk with slangasek about an ABI bump in openssl for hardy
<mathiaz> I've uploaded openssl to my PPA
<mathiaz> and once it's built, I'll upload apache2.
<mathiaz> so that we can get started with testing.
<dendrobates> ivoks: greetings
 * soren hugs mathiaz 
<mathiaz> ivoks: any news about dovecot/postfix ?
<soren> mathiaz: awasome!
<ivoks> hi
 * mathiaz waves at ivoks 
 * ScottK2 wonders if lamont is here.
<ivoks> still nothing :/
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok.
 * lamont is somewhat here
<mathiaz> sommer: what's going on on the documentation front ?
<ScottK2> mathiaz: On that note - If we can get the amavisd-new MIR processed soon it'd be nice to integrate that with tasksel.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: it's in the hand of the MIR team (ie pitti and doko).
<sommer> mathiaz: still cruisin
<ScottK2> mathiaz: So maybe you can enourage them.
<mathiaz> sommer: is there any change in the milestone dates ?
<sommer> mathiaz: not that I know of
<sommer> I think they've been posted somewhere on the wiki
<sommer> actually I'm not really 100% sure they're official
 * doko is not sure that we do want that in main ...
<sommer> besides the final freeze
<sommer> but since there hasn't been much discussion, I'd think everyone agrees
<sommer> or doesn't have major objection
<mathiaz> sommer: ok. I've seen a new contribution in the security section
<ScottK2> doko: It'd be without the milter package so we don't need to bring Sendmail bits into Main.
<sommer> ya, that's been really great working with him
<soren> doko: Want what in main? amavisd-new?
<sommer> hopefully we can cover more ground
<mathiaz> sommer: the guide is maintained in bzr ?
<sommer> still working on the virtualization section
<mathiaz> sommer: has the wiki page wrote up by soren been usefull ?
<sommer> mathiaz: yep: https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs
<soren> I rather consider it a scaffold on which to build proper documentation. :)
<sommer> mathiaz: ya, I wasn't too sure how to integrate it with qemu, but I think soren cleared that up
<soren> Did I? Er.. Ok, then :)
<sommer> gilbert the other contributer may be working on a kvm section
<sommer> soren: the other day :-)
<soren> sommer: If you say so :D
<mathiaz> there was some discussion in #ubuntu-server about it.
<mathiaz> has the wiki page been updated wrt these discussion ?
<sommer> mathiaz: the server roadmap, or the virtetc page?
<mathiaz> sommer: viretc
<sommer> not that I know, of... I plan to devote some time to it this weekend
 * soren hugs sommer
<mathiaz> I'm refering to the kvm discussion in #ubuntu-server
<sommer> if not before
<sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, I'll do some updates with regards to qemu
<mathiaz> sommer: great ! Thanks.
<mathiaz> that leads us to the virtualization front
<mathiaz> soren: any updates on this ?
<soren> Since last meeting? Er..
<soren> Well, yes.
<soren> I got the kernel side of kvm updated. On the guest side, I've added the fancy new virtio stuff that massively improves I/O from inside the guest.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: when was this kvm discussion in #ubuntu-server?
<soren> On the host side, I've updated the kvm modules shipped with our kernel images to match what was released with kvm 60.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: don't remember exactly - I think it was last week.
<soren> This fixed a whole host (pun intended) of bugs. Most importantly, the gfxboot screen now shows up properly when booting a Hardy ISO.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I remember sommer asking question about it
<sommer> nealmcb: feels more like around monday to me
<soren> Er... Well, it will once the kernel is uploaded.
<sommer> it was a short converstation
<dendrobates> soren: I was about to object.
<soren> The virtio stuff is there, though. You need to pass special arguments to kvm to enable it, but I'm working on getting that into libvirt.
<mathiaz> soren: so that means KVM can be used to test isos ?
<mathiaz> soren: I meant livecd isos specifically
<soren> mathiaz: There's one more thing I need to a) fix in kvm (upstream bug) and b) fix in X, then it should be rocking.
<soren> Right now, it's a bit... rough.
<mathiaz> soren: excellent. That was pitti's main concern about kvm in hardy.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: any news on likewise ?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: yes.
<dendrobates> mathiaz: I have packaged 4.0.4 and uploaded to chinstrap.
<dendrobates> baring any issues, it should be uploaded to universe tomorrow.
<dendrobates> the giu has been changed to gtk, which is much better.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: how can it be tested ?
<mathiaz> dendrobates: or what are the main features ?
<mathiaz> dendrobates: If it's uploaded before Alpha 4, we should a section in the Release notes about it.
<dendrobates> once it is uploaded, you can use it to join a windows domain
<mathiaz> dendrobates: either from the command line or using the gui
<dendrobates> with a cli or gui.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: ?
<mathiaz> dendrobates: could you add section the Release Notes for Alpha 4 ? or ask nijaba to take care of it ?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: np
<mathiaz> [ACTION] dendrobates will add a section to the Alpha 4 Release Notes about windows integration.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dendrobates will add a section to the Alpha 4 Release Notes about windows integration.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: I've seen two emails (I think it was the same guy) asking about windows integration.
<sommer> is alpha4 released tomorrow?
<mathiaz> sommer: yes actually...
<mathiaz> sommer: it may too late for the Release Notes then.
<sommer> cool, couldn't remember exact date
 * mathiaz thought it was tuesday
 * jdstrand added something to the release notes today...
<ScottK2> mathiaz: I think for the alphas it's on a wiki.
<mathiaz> jdstrand: about UFW ?
<jdstrand> mathiaz: yes
<jdstrand> it is on the wiki-- let me get the url
<mathiaz> ScottK2: yes - I think that all the release notes are prepared on the wiki
<ScottK2> So there is no "to late"
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron/Alpha4
<mathiaz> jdstrand: is there more testing done on UFW ?
<jdstrand> mathiaz: I wan't meaning to take over the conversation, but if you're ready for the ufw update...
<nxvl_work> i have tested yesterday IIRC
<mathiaz> jdstrand: please do
<jdstrand> I sent an email to ubuntu-server and ubuntu-devel-discuss
<jdstrand> I haven't heard much, excepting nxvl_work
<jdstrand> it is in pretty good shape
<jdstrand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFirewall
<jdstrand> there are instructions on testing in the wiki
<sommer> jdstrand: woops I forgot to give you some feedback, but I tried ufw out last week and it worked great
<mathiaz> jdstrand: excellent. It may get more coverage once alpha4 is being published
<sommer> haven't had a chance to test the new version though
<jdstrand> sommer: great! check out 0.9
<sommer> jdstrand: will do
<mathiaz> jdstrand: keescook: now that there is security meeting, do you still wanna discuss apparmor and other bits in the server team meeting ?
<mathiaz> or should it be moved to the security meeting ?
<keescook> mathiaz: well, it overlaps
<jdstrand> I'll mention that I hope to get some profile work and testing done soon
<keescook> mathiaz: the profile work is, I think, more closely tied to server team work than security work
<keescook> i.e. it's a per-service kind of thing
<mathiaz> keescook: right.
<keescook> so, unless there is objection, I'd like to keep the apparmor profiling discussion part of this meeting
<mathiaz> keescook: WFM
<keescook> and focus the "infrastructure" work in the security team
<keescook> okay
<mathiaz> pitti asked me if there was plans to create a profile for the dhcp client so that the derooting patch can be dropped.
<mathiaz> If someone wants to get started with profile generation, that would be a very good starting point
<jdstrand> since we are talking about profile generation-- I plan on doing slapd, named and mysqld
<emgent> :)
<jdstrand> some of those are in apparmor-profiles, so I'll do testing
<mathiaz> jdstrand: excellent. I did generate them during last release cycle
<mathiaz> zul: Thanks for all the MIR writing.
<jdstrand> mathiaz: right, I hope to build on that and get them out of apparmor-profiles and into the package
<mathiaz> zul: anything left on there ?
<zul> no problem
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview
<zul> most of them are pending on the mir team i havent gotten to one yet
<jdstrand> s/the package/their respective packages/
<mathiaz> soren: iscsi stuff ?
<zul> mathiaz: openhpi yet because I dont have a clue on that package
<soren> No news, I'm afraid.
<zul> i agree with fabio about bacula it shouldnt go into main either
<mathiaz> zul: you mentionned you've fixed iscsi target
<zul> yep, the kernel stuff is building with 2.6.24 now
<zul> drbd kernel stuff is in the kernel-team's git archive
<ScottK2> mathiaz: Last meeting I thought there was going to be a message to the server team ML about packages thrown out of the spec.  Did I miss it?
<mathiaz> zul: is it a package in universe ?
<zul> mathiaz: yes
<mathiaz> zul: do you plan to move it to ubuntu-modules
<zul> mathiaz: i could
<mathiaz> ScottK2: nope. I didn't send it.
<zul> i thought I was just suppose to report back at the meeting
<mathiaz> zul: OTOH it's really high priority.
<zul> mathiaz: ill put it on my todo list then for tomorrow morning
<mathiaz> zul: for hardy, we focus more on initiator
<zul> consider it done
<mathiaz> zul: could you send an email to ubuntu-server about the reason to drop bacula from the ServerPackageReview list ?
<ScottK2> mathiaz: Please do.
<zul> mathiaz: yep
<sommer> is there another "enterprise" backup package in main?
<mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will send an email to ubuntu-server about bacula in main
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will send an email to ubuntu-server about bacula in main
<sommer> or integrated backup anyway
<zul> amanda is in universe but that was rejected
<mathiaz> sommer: not that I know of.
<sommer> okay, just wondering for the backup section of the docs
<mathiaz> zul: yep - the other option was amanda.
<sommer> tar never let anyone down :-)
<ivoks> we decided that bacula had more features
<zul> yeah but it has a big gapping security hole
<ivoks> right :/
<mathiaz> zul: any news or plan on the xen front ?
<zul> mathiaz: uploaded 2.6.24 final patch today will upload xen-3.2 final tomorrow
<zul> er...the patch went to the kernel-team's git repo
<mathiaz> is there any integration with libvirt ?
<zul> not that I know of right now
<nealmcb> a virtualization question occurred to me.  are any virtual images of hardy available for testing under gutsy via kvm and the like?  e.g. for testing server-related packages?
<dendrobates> libvirt works with xen by default, unless soren has borked that.
<soren> If I did, it wasn't on purpose :)
<nealmcb> as opposed to isos that need installing....
<zul> i always used xen-image-create :)
<soren> nealmcb: We don't currently have "blessed" vm images, no.
<nealmcb> are there plans to offer them?  folks have wanted them in the past, and this would be a good time to start testing the build stuff
<zul> well you could probably use jeos :)
<mathiaz> it may be worth checking that xen can be integrated with soren's work on virtualization
<zul> i can look into i
<zul> it even
<dendrobates> zul: can you put xen in a ppa?
<zul> sure
<nealmcb> zul: sure - jeos would be a popular one to start with, and a vm image would be lots more fun than an iso I think.
<dendrobates> I'll test it out tomorrow
<zul> dendrobates: ill put my kernel .debs on chinstrap for you as well
<dendrobates> zul: ok
<mathiaz> [ACTION] dendrobates to test xen support in libvirt.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dendrobates to test xen support in libvirt.
<mathiaz> ivoks: are you still working on [BOTTOM][TOP]Simplify storage management (RAID1 - LVM-on-RAID) during installation ?
<mathiaz> ivoks: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#head-a36fb4f1b51aa401df3eb5d44fb737ddc5731cd0
<ivoks> mathiaz: didn't touch it for weeks
<ivoks> i'm kind on middle of exam period on faculty, so i have little time
<mathiaz> ivoks: still working on it ?
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 01 Feb 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
<ivoks> but i'll try work something out during next couple of days
<mathiaz> ivoks: ok. great !
<mathiaz> I think that's all for the roadmap review.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Another Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Another Business
<mathiaz> Anything to add ?
<ivoks> sorry late entrance :/
<ivoks> ...for late...
<nxvl_work> mathiaz: yes, the multiple ssl certs we talk about yesterday
<nealmcb> what image format(s) would we supply?  qcow2?
<ScottK2> Can we talk about libdb transitions?
<ScottK2> It seems most of the packages left on the older libdb releases has issues with on disk format chagnes.
<ScottK2> chagnes/changes
<mathiaz> ScottK2: I think pitti is working on getting libdb4.{234} out of main
<mathiaz> ScottK2: you may wanna ask him about this.
<ScottK2> mathiaz: Yes and we could probably get 2 and 3 out of Ubuntu entirely with a little work.
<ScottK2> 4.2 is down to about a half dozen packages.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: do you have a list of these packages ?
<ScottK2> Yes
<mathiaz> ScottK2: It may worth adding a point in the Packager section of the Roadmap
<nxvl_work> and also put that list somewhere
<mathiaz> ScottK2: and list the packages.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: there.
<mathiaz> ScottK2: another option could be to file bugs against the relevant packages in LP
<ScottK2> Adding it.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ScottK2 to add a point in the Roadmap section about libdb4.2 transition.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK2 to add a point in the Roadmap section about libdb4.2 transition.
<mathiaz> So I think we had a long meeting now.
 * nealmcb nods
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
<nealmcb> lots of good progress though I think
<mathiaz> same place, same time, next week ?
<nxvl_work> +1
<ScottK2> mathiaz: Action complete
<nealmcb> I'll have a conflict next week fwiw
<mathiaz> All right folks ! Thanks for attending and happy alpha 4 testing :)
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 22:41.
<sommer> thanks mathiaz, have a good one all
<jdstrand> thanks mathiaz!
 * nxvl_work waves
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-01-31
<Palintheus> ls
<Palintheus> grr
<gcleric> rrrraaawww!
<pitti> hello
<emgent> heya pitti
<emgent> @schedule Rome
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 01 Feb 21:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 23:30: Forum Council | 20 Feb 02:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
 * mvo waves
 * Hobbsee waves to pitti and mvo
 * Hobbsee hides from any lightning bolts
 * Hobbsee keeps her watering can handy, for putting out any more spot fires
<pedro_> hello
<pitti> hey
<seb128> hey
<MacSlow> greetings
<Riddell> hi
<pitti> hm, no Ted yet?
<Riddell> he has been known to need a text
<MacSlow> looks like it
 * pitti smses
<MacSlow> ah fast :)
<Riddell> that was fast
<MacSlow> my sms lways take ages
<pitti> hey tedg
<tedg> Morning guys.
<MacSlow> hi
<pitti> tedg: so, sms is moot then :)
<pitti> so, everyone settled back home after the sprint? :)
<tedg> Oh, were you guys going to SMS me?  I actually can't get txt messages.
 * pitti does a group hug
<pitti> tedg: I did already; oh, good to know
<tedg> They charge for $0.10 for messages that you receive, and then spammers get your number....  annoying.
<kwwii> pitti: just as a note, I no longer have to attend the meeting if there is nothing for me (but you couldn't know that I guess)
<mvo> they charge you for stuff you receive?!?
<pitti> kwwii: I remember; well, so do you have something to discuss or need any help with your specs?
<tedg> mvo, in the US, we invented greedy capitalism ;)
<kwwii> pitti: nope, not really, but I'll hang around anyway :-)
<pitti> kwwii: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+specs has three specs for you which are all not even approved; I take it they are all defered?
<kwwii> pitti: nope, it is more a matter that scott has not approved them
<kwwii> the scope of them changed from "change everything" to "change a little" so there is not a lot of work involved
<pitti> kwwii: ok; so as long as you don't block on finding something to blacksmith packging for you, that's fine
<kwwii> right
<pitti> so, the only two agenda items that I collected from the reports are my own :)
<pitti>  * jockey testing (nvidia, ati, usability) (pitti)
<pitti>  * app-install-data-commercial
<pitti> anything else from anyone?
<MacSlow> I just have a general question...
<pitti> just shoot :)
<Seveas> *pang*
 * pitti rubs his ears
<MacSlow> regarding how to proceed, if patches I sent upstream (to bugzilla) are left un-applied... thus not landing in our .debs when we (you) grab them from upstream
<seb128> whenever you ask for it
<pitti> MacSlow: I think we should always apply our own patches immediately and upload them, so that lots of people can test them
<mvo> MacSlow: just ping someone of the people doing the packaging and they include them
<seb128> I can do an upload with those patch or sponsor you
<pitti> we should always immediately send patches upstream, but not block on them to apply and release
<seb128> pitti: not always, for the rhythmbox changes I was waiting because upstream had comments, etc
<MacSlow> initially I always incorporated them into patches found in <package>/debian/patches... but we want to keep the delta as small aspossible and be nicer with upstream and contribute more directly
<pitti> right, of course; if you are actually working *with* upstream on the patch
<seb128> MacSlow: usually apply to the package when you think it's ready and attach it upstream as soon as possible so we benefit from their comments, etc
<MacSlow> pitti, well in all case I refer too I am directly working with upstream
<pitti> MacSlow: IMHO, as soon as seb and you are confident that it works, get it uploaded
<seb128> what pitti said
<MacSlow> seb128, pitti: ok
<pitti> MacSlow: it doesn't hurt if we drop our patch two weeks later and adopt a differnet solution upstream, as long as we are before FF and all that
<MacSlow> seb128, e.g. the "browser-by-default" for rb works and sticks to conventions found in other rb-plugins regarding gconf-key places
<seb128> MacSlow: I'm happy to upload this one
<seb128> let's discuss it on #ubuntu-desktop
<MacSlow> mvo, same goes for the action-menu patch for libwnck
<pitti> oh, right; if you patch something that changes the user's conf, then we need to be more careful of course
<MacSlow> seb128, after the meeting?!
<seb128> MacSlow: yes
<MacSlow> pitti, in case of the "browser-by-default" it just add stuff not change any existing key
<MacSlow> ok... this issue is clarified for me then
<pitti> so, unfortunately at the sprint there weren't a lot of people/hw with Ati/Nvidia cards; I would appreciate if you could test jockey a bit (new version just uploaded) and give me some feedback whether it works for you and which hw you have
<pitti> I'm particualrly interested in fglrx, nvidia, and WinModems (sl-modem-daemon)
<MacSlow> pitti, hm.... ok I can update my desktop/nvidia-box to hardy
<pitti> bcm43xx will be re-added in some days
<pitti> MacSlow: if it helps, I can provide gutsy packages, too
<MacSlow> pitti, does the restricted-driver stuff already cover nvidia 169.09?
<pitti> (it's just a different Recommends:, they should actually install fine on gutsy
<pitti> MacSlow: yes, it should; we ship the necessary glue files in linux-restricted-modules itself, not jockey
<MacSlow> ok
<pitti> mpt: how much can we bother you about UI reviews already?
<pitti> mpt: jockey doesn't look terribly different from r-m, but it did change a bit, and I'd appreciate getting some complaints :)
<mpt> pitti, my current allocation is 2 days/week on Ubuntu, though I think sabdfl would like to reduce that
<mpt> by all means e-mail me, or even better, assign a bug to me if appropriate
<pitti> so, if we have something to review for you, is it ok to just mail you or do we need to ask the LP guys for 'stealing' you?
<pitti> mpt: alright, sounds good; thanks
<mvo> pitti: I can give you feedback after the meeting on ati r500
<pitti> thanks
<pitti> so, unless anyone else wants to ask/discuss something, shall we quickly run through the specs?
<mpt> pitti, or even e-mail ubuntu-desktop@ or ubuntu-devel@, because it'll be educational for the comments to be public
<mvo> pitti: what is this item about app-install-data-commercial?
<pitti> mpt: ah, sounds good
<pitti> mvo: I wanted to handle that after the meeting actually
<pitti> mvo: just wondering if there is anything written about it somewhere?
<pitti> mvo: Gerry wants us to add a new package to it, and I wasn't sure which information we need and where to put it
<pitti> mvo: but I think we can do that afterwards
<mvo> pitti: ok
<pitti> so, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+specs -- we have three weeks to go :)
<mvo> pitti: this should all be handed over to the ISV department
<pitti> Riddell, your's seem to be in good shape
<pitti> mvo: I'd prefer that, too
<Riddell> pitti: yes, they're both making good progress
<pitti> for my own ones, partition-management lags behind; if someone happens to be bored and interested, I always appreciate help :)
<pitti> but I think I can get the most important bits into FF (partition renaming and fsck on boot)
<pitti> mvo: networkless-installation-fixes seems to be behind?
<mvo> pitti: yes, its behind, I had hoped to work on it this week, but the plague struck
<pitti> argh sprint plague argh
<mvo> pitti: I still think it can be done in the remainaing time
<pitti> mvo: but it's not blocked for something external or other people?
<mvo> pitti: no
<pitti> (this isn't supposed to be a "you suck" list, but rather a "who needs help from whom" :) )
<pitti> mvo: packaging-tools-usability isn't even approved yet; does that need some review from people like mpt, or jsut blocked on Scott?
<mvo> pitti: the open issue is that we should have a way to show the support status of the packages
<mvo> pitti: now this is not easy as some packages are support for 3y some for 5y etc
<pitti> ooh, I agree; this creates too  much confusion and false expectations
<mvo> pitti: but there is currently no list (to my knowledge)
<mvo> unless this list is available, this particular bit can not be implemented
<pitti> mvo: can't we use some germinate trick for that?
<pitti> i. e. everything that's in the server seed is 5 years, rest is 3?
<pitti> mvo: I also fell that we should point out universe/multiverse bits harder
<mvo> if that is the official policy, then yes
<mvo> pitti: point out harder in what way?
<pitti> it's very hard to tell ATM which unsupported packages you have installed and thus could bite you (security, support, and updates)
<pitti> mvo: I'm not sure how to point it out TBH
<pitti> I just know that nowadays people regard unvierse packages as pretty much "Ubuntu"
<pitti> and loudly complain/blog/shout if we don't put a new microversion of $my_favourite_universe_pet_packge into universe-updates every other month
<pitti> (or keep clamav up to date, etc.)
<mvo> right
<pitti> mvo: 3/5 years> can you talk to Colin about that?
<pitti> I think germinate can help us here
<Riddell> mvo: mind that some packages are also 18 months only
<mvo> that is because we give people the expectation that universe is pretty well supported by enabling it by default for example
<pitti> ^ right
<mvo> pitti: yes, please make that a action item
<pitti> Riddell: ah, like packages in the Kubuntu seeds?
<mvo> pitti: I will talk to him about it
<pitti> mvo: done
<pitti> thanks
<Riddell> pitti: mm
<mvo> pitti: or stuff in main but not "desktop"
<pitti> any other bright ideas about that universe presentatino problem?
<pitti> mvo: we should make update-manager increasingly more whining about installing universe the older a release gets :-P
<pitti> "Best before: see backside" or so
<mvo> what can people expect from universe? is there [ ] no support [ ] some support [ ] full support
<mvo> for security updates?
<pitti> some security support
<pitti> and some updates for popular packages
<Riddell> unrealiable support
<mvo> so only for very critical ones?
<pitti> but none at all for 95% of packages
<pitti> mvo: it's not directly related to severity; more to popularity
<tedg> Can we say something like "community support"?
<pitti> e. g. gstreamer codecs will get updates
<MacSlow> mvo, pitti: isn't the ubuntu-logo infront of a package in synatpic enough indication of the support-state?
<mvo> if we don't provide security support for 95% of universe, then that is certainly something we need to message very clearly
<pitti> and some people now take care of clamav
<pitti> MacSlow: indication, yes; but apparently not enough
<pitti> tedg: well, that's even more fuzzy IMHO
<pitti> mvo: do you think (for hardy+1) we could have update-notifier check our Ubuntu CVE database, and give a warning about unresolved stuff in universe packages?
<mvo> pitti: yes, I think so
<pitti> i. e. a notification for installed software, and a big fat warning when trying to install it
<mvo> is there a universe-security team?
<pitti> that won't help for serious bugs that are in the release, but it might help to keep people's feed a bit more dry
<mvo> motu based?
<pitti> mvo: yes, there is
<pitti> mvo: but AFAIR our security team (Kees/Jamie) still do the complete tracking
<pitti> and we have that tracking in machine readable format
<mvo> but it can not keep up?
<pitti> mvo: nope (can't/don't really want)
<pitti> mvo: the very reason why we keep stuff in universe is that there is so much crack in it which is entirely unmaintainable for 3 or even 1.5 years
<pitti> ok, let's move that to the ML, time is pressing
<mvo> ok, mailinglist sounds good
<pitti> mvo: can you CC: ubuntu-devel in your mail about determining support status?
<pitti> MacSlow: hardy-desktop-effects-profiles and hardy-sparkle seem to need more time/attention
<pitti> MacSlow: do you need help/should we kick one to hardy+1/will it likely land on time?
<MacSlow> pitti, sparkle and shine are allowed to miss ff
<MacSlow> pitti, the profiles stuff is a bit hard
<pitti> ah, ok
<MacSlow> pitti, I'm currently a bit unsure if keybuk said the profiles stuff can slip to hardy+1 or not
<pitti> MacSlow: ok; TBH I'm not familiar with that, so if you think you won't get everything ready, can you please talk with Scott directly?
<MacSlow> the sprint week was a bit hectic and I got some shift-arounds of things
<MacSlow> pitti, sure
<pitti> ok, thanks
<pitti> hardy-hardware-detection is currently marked as 'not started', that's not quite true
<pitti> the core bits are already done; I'll update it after the meeting
<pitti> seb128: pppoeconf-gui looks untouched enough to not be something for hardy?
<seb128> pitti: gnome-system-tools does pppoe now
<pitti> oh,neat
<seb128> pitti: so the spec is deprecated, or rather just it's limited to make sure than g-s-t work correctly
<pitti> seb128: you think that's good enough for DSL users?
<pitti> rockin'
<seb128> yes
<pitti> seb128: can you please update the status and whiteboard of it?
<pitti> 'beta available' sounds appropriate then?
<seb128> pitti: sure
<seb128> yes
<pitti> and talk to scott to get it approved?
<seb128> ok
<pitti> tedg: what's the status of screensaver-review?
<tedg> I talked to Scott about it at the sprint, so I need to write up everything that he said.
<tedg> Then we need to come up with a critera for choosing screensavers, I'm trying to work with Debian on that.
<pitti> tedg: so is 'drafting' reflecting the status correctly?
<tedg> The current way is "Mark said so" -- we need something more robust :)
<tedg> pitti: yes, that's a good status.
<pitti> in this case it doesn't look very 'hardyable'?
<pitti> oh, the 'Mark' approval overriding :)
<tedg> I'm not sure, it is a pretty easy spec, mostly moving around screensavers from -data to -data-extras.
<pitti> tedg: are you and TheMuso getting along with the remainign audio jumble pieces? please let me know if you need anything from me wrt. pulse
<pitti> tedg: screensaver> oh, ok; it sounded a bit more complex
<tedg> pitti: Yes, I haven't talked with TheMuso yet...  need to do that.
<pitti> tedg: can you please talk to Mark and Scott to get this spec into shape? we should at least know what we need for hardy
<tedg> pitti: Yes, right now it's mostly a "typing problem".  I plan on having it to Scott for Monday.
<pitti> thanks
<pitti> so, I think we are through
<pitti> for review, my collected action items:
<pitti> ACTION: mvo to talk to cjwatson about using germinate to determine length of package support (3/5 years, 18 months) and mailing u-devel@ about improving u-n to warn about universe packages with known security holes
<pitti> ACTION: Seb to talk to Scott for updating pppoeconf-gui spec status for the feature provided by gnome-system-tools
<pitti> ACTION: tedg to talk to Scott and Mark about screensaver-review; this is currently way too underdefined for getting it into hardy
<seb128> pitti: thanks
<pitti> anything else on your hearts and minds?
<tedg> Nope.  Looks good.
<pitti> I'll send the report to distro-team@ in some minutes then, and then stop impostering Scott
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<pitti> have a good day
<Riddell> remember to start situps tomorrow!
<pitti> right! everyone to attend!
<cjwatson> mvo: I already have an action to do that germinate/server thing for Nick Barcet, BTW
<pitti> the grown muscles in my arms already start to weaken :)
<cjwatson> so I don't need another :-)
<pitti> hey cjwatson; ah, good to know
<mvo> cjwatson: heh :) ok
<MacSlow> so long everybody
 * pitti hugs the team
 * mvo waves
<mpt> impostering, eh
<Riddell> impersonating
<pitti> I guess that's what I meant, thanks
<gaurish> when is the next meet?
<pochu> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 01 Feb 20:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
<gaurish> @ubotu
<arualavi> ahir al final amb lo del Vbimbo viag fer una cosa que suggereixen a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/OperatorGuidelines
<arualavi> sorry
<arualavi> wrong channel :-/
<emgent> @schedule Rome
<emgent> @now
<emgent> bot offline :(
<Seveas> yeah
<Seveas> sucky colo provider having routing problems for the umpteenth time
<PriceChild> emgent, replacements are incoming
<emgent> argh
<emgent> ok thanks PriceChild :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-02-01
<bmk789> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 01 Feb 20:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
<bmk789> @schedule EST
<ubotu> Schedule for EST: 01 Feb 15:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 17:30: Forum Council | 19 Feb 20:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
<leonel> How can I know  which messages are  or how can I  recover these 9  messages Setting DELETE status for deleted messages...
<leonel> Ok. [9] messages set for deletion.
<leonel> sorry wrong window
<RainCT> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 01 2008, 15:23:10 - Next meeting: MOTU in 4 hours 36 minutes
<bmk789_brb> @now EST
<ubotu> Current time in EST: February 01 2008, 12:54:33 - Next meeting: MOTU in 2 hours 5 minutes
<shadowh511> is there a meeting or something?
<protonchris> @now MDT
<protonchris> @now MST
<ubotu> Current time in MST: February 01 2008, 11:45:33 - Next meeting: MOTU in 1 hour 14 minutes
<shadowh511> ok
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: MOTU Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
<nixternal> hola
<DktrKranz> nixternal, hi Richard, congrats :)
<nixternal> thanks!
<nixternal> hrmm, I wonder if persia will be around to speak about his agenda item
<ScottK> Shall we begin?
<nixternal> want to use MootBot?
<nixternal> hiya sistpoty
<sistpoty> hi nixternal
 * ScottK has no idea, just as long as he isn't stuck doing minutes.
<nixternal> ScottK: MootBot will take care of the minutes for us iirc
 * ScottK looks at nixternal and is glad he knows how to handle it then.
<nixternal> should we wait a couple of minutes for any stragglers?
<ScottK> I'd say we already have.
<nixternal> true
<nixternal> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 20:04. The chair is nixternal.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Rename motu-uvf - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  Rename motu-uvf - ScottK
<nixternal> go ahead ScottK, the floor is yours
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> Clearly since we no longer have uvf, we need a new name.
<ScottK> motu-ff, motu-release, motu-freeze have been suggested so far
<ScottK> Any preferences from anyone?
<nixternal> [IDEA]Clearly since we no longer have uvf, we need a new name.
<MootBot> IDEA received: Clearly since we no longer have uvf, we need a new name.
<nixternal> [IDEA] motu-ff, motu-release, motu-freeze have been suggested so far
<MootBot> IDEA received:  motu-ff, motu-release, motu-freeze have been suggested so far
 * sistpoty thinks that motu-release would also shift the purpose of the team
<DktrKranz> I'd say motu-release, just for mere assonance with ubuntu-release
<nixternal> well, since uvf is no longer around, then obvious a name change would probably make the teams goals a tad bit clearer
<ScottK> Well sistpoty brings up an interesting question.
<geser> but wouldn't people expect from motu-release more than it really is?
<ScottK> For Gutsy, motu-uvf was active helping manage things up through release.
<ScottK> No one complained and I think it helped a lot with a good end game for Universe.
 * RainCT says hi. sorry, just remembered about the meeting.
<nixternal> I thought motu-freeze sounded kind of cool and actually gets its point across a bit
<ScottK> I'm good with either motu-freeze or motu-release.
<ScottK> FF is the first step in release management for Universe.
<sistpoty> ScottK: so you think that (the team formerly known as) motu-uvf should in fact care with release matters?
<ScottK> sistpoty: I do.
<ScottK> sistpoty: We did it for Gutsy and it worked well.
<sistpoty> hm... I guess the goals are quite similar in fact
<sistpoty> (for a release team and handling uvf-requests)
<ScottK> It's really the same kind of risk/benifit tradeoff, just with different focus as the release gets closer.
<nixternal> or what was formally called uvf-requests I guess
<sistpoty> so I don't have any objections to motu-release
<ScottK> Any objections to that?
 * RainCT likes it
<nixternal> should we take a vote on motu-release? if so I will set MootBot to record the votes
 * sistpoty likes votes
<ScottK> nixternal: We can if you want, but no one objected.
<nixternal> [VOTE] Do we change the name of motu-uvf to motu-release?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Do we change the name of motu-uvf to motu-release?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<ScottK> +1
<sistpoty> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ScottK. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from sistpoty. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<RainCT> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from RainCT. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<DktrKranz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from DktrKranz. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<nixternal> is that everyone?
<superm1> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from superm1. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<nixternal> #endvote
<nixternal> any day now bot
<ScottK> [ENDVOTE]
<nixternal> #endvote
<sistpoty> he, I guess you dislike votes from now, nixternal? *g*
<nixternal> it seems he likes to hang when ending a vote, possibly because he can't do simple addition :)
<DktrKranz> mh, probably when an new topic is set, endvote is called
<geser> nixternal: simply change the topic and mootbot will close the vote
<sistpoty> nixternal: write what ScottK proposed
<nixternal> [AGREED] motu-uvf to become motu-release
<MootBot> AGREED received:  motu-uvf to become motu-release
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Moving on...
<MootBot> Vote is in progress. Finishing now.
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<MootBot> New Topic:  Moving on...
<nixternal> there you go
<nixternal> since persia isn't around to talk about his topic, does anyone else have anything to add?
<ScottK> I'll speak on persia's topic since he's not hear.
<ScottK> hear/here
<nixternal> ok...let me set that one up
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Switch from Interdiff to diff.gz for new upstream candiadtes (EmmetHikory) - covered by ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  Switch from Interdiff to diff.gz for new upstream candiadtes (EmmetHikory) - covered by ScottK
 * sistpoty is glad to not have to fight with MootBot this time... once was enough *g*
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> I was mdz fight with it too, you would think I would have learned :)
<nixternal> err, s/was/watch
<ScottK> persia put forward the idea of using interdiff and we tried it.
<sistpoty> hehe
<ScottK> It's a good idea in theory, but a real PITA in practice.
<nixternal> true
<ScottK> I think we've discussed enough that a .diff.gz is sufficient in almost all cases and easier to both understand and create.
<ScottK> So the question is do we stick with interdiff, switch to .diff.gz, or handle upgrade some other way.
<ScottK> The key point, I think, is the sponsor should fetch the tar.gz themselves and be able to easily review the proposed package.
<nixternal> .diff.gz is easier in practice than the interdiff, at least it proved that way for me
<ScottK> Comments?
 * sistpoty hasn't tried interdiff yet, so sistpoty doesn't have a real opinion
<nixternal> I did a couple of interdiffs, and each time I kept reading the wiki...
<LaserJock> did I miss it?
<ScottK> Anyone like interdiff?
 * RainCT tried sponsoring an interdiff but couldn't achieve to get the source, even following the wiki :(
<nixternal> RainCT: ya, me either
<ScottK> LaserJock: We're just discussing switching from interdiff to diff.gz for upgrade bug sponsoring.
<LaserJock> ah
 * txwikinger does not understand why interdiff is advantegeous over just taking the new orig and diff
<DktrKranz> with .diff.gz in place, it could be possible to obtain interdiff quite easily, but it is harder to have interdiffs for someone who is not comfortable with it
<nixternal> what happened with using debdiff?
<LaserJock> I couldn't care less what people use as long as they give me something I can use
<ScottK> nixternal: Debdiff for a new upstream would include all the upstream changes too.
<nixternal> heh, I am actually the same as LaserJock
<LaserJock> I'm not sure why we are actually having this discussion
<nixternal> ScottK: gotcha, and we are trying to limit to just ubuntu/debian changes then
<superm1> i'd be for just having diff's of the debian directory
<superm1> have them extract both and just run diff across the two directories and attach that to a bug
<sistpoty> superm1: that would exclude packages not using a patch system
<ScottK> LaserJock: Because the agreement is we don't change process/policy unless agreed at a MOTU meeting.
<superm1> sistpoty, ah yeah.
<LaserJock> ScottK: my point is why is this policy? it seems petty and silly
<ScottK> LaserJock: Because there was a meeting and it was decided.
 * ScottK wasn't at the meeting.
<LaserJock> me neither, so I guess I should just shut up
<LaserJock> ;-)
<nixternal> It does seem that way, but I understand the wanting of common process
 * sistpoty thought back then to give it a try
<nixternal> otherwise trying to teach future MOTUs the availability of 10 different processes can be a pita at times
<LaserJock> "get us the source package, we don't care how" doesn't seem to be all that bad
<nixternal> but providing them choice is good imho, as it will allow them to follow a practice that suits their style possibly
<sistpoty> though I'm not active in sponsoring, what speaks against a link to a dsc attached to the bug report?
<nixternal> sistpoty: not everyone has a place to store the .dsc and the rest of the files
<LaserJock> there's revu if they don't
<sistpoty> nixternal: revu can store dsc's, so I guess everyone has
<nixternal> I believe that was the argument heard when I thought of a similar idea a while back
<LaserJock> and if they aren't that big LP would be fine
<superm1> everyone can use revu or ppa to store them
<nixternal> also people can link us to their PPA
 * ScottK very much dislikes PPA for this due to versioning issues
<superm1> well you can delete stuff in PPAs now
<sistpoty> LaserJock: no, LP (as in attachments) will screw the names, but PPAs are an alternative
<DktrKranz> Having .diff.gz (and interdiff, of course) requires a watch file to grab .orig.tar.gz, what if watch files can't be implemented?
<superm1> so you can use proper versioning if you want
<sistpoty> links even
<ScottK> Sponsoree should propose exactly what they want uploaded, not with PPA versioning.
<LaserJock> sistpoty: screw what names?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: link names
<sistpoty> LaserJock: as in you can't dget
<nixternal> ahh, good point
<LaserJock> sistpoty: oh well
<RainCT> sistpoty: there's dgetlp in ubuntu-dev-tools
<nixternal> it will give them that 0034802934408202__48389W.dsc garbage
 * sistpoty would rather have a straight dget... but with PPAs that is possible
<nixternal> perfect timing persia :)
<nixternal> we are covering your topic right now, care to add?
<ScottK> Actually I think they fixed LP to have dget work with it now.
<sistpoty> hi persia
<sistpoty> ScottK: cool
 * persia apologises for being late
 * ScottK hands the gavel to persia.
<LaserJock> I just don't think we need a strict policy for this, but I'd prefer diff.gz over interdiff
<nixternal> I would as well
<geser> ScottK: does it also work for attached packages or only for published packages?
 * sistpoty would just like to have anything dget'able linked in the bugreport
<persia> It's not about policy, it's more about standard recommendations to newcomers, and expected processing by sponsors.
<nixternal> persia: thanks for clarifying that
<persia> sistpoty: That's inherently error-prone, as it doesn't force the use of upstream sources.
<LaserJock> persia: but that institutes policy and creates punishment for not doing so
<persia> LaserJock: True.
<LaserJock> "no I won't sponsor your package because you didn't format it the way I want it"
<sistpoty> persia: that would always need checking, right
<sistpoty> (note, that I'm not favourable to "must have" get-orig-source or similar
<sistpoty> +)
<persia> sistpoty: It's not been historically checked well using dget and REVU or third-party websites.
<nixternal> so maybe have a list of a few recommendations on how MOTU members who are willing to sponsor a package would like to see a diff created possibly?
<sistpoty> oh, side note: I don't want the commenting to happen on revu... (and I guess could easily hide non-new packages there), so that we have one place (LP) to comment on a new upstream version
<nixternal> in a sense, you have to convince a sponsor to, well sponsor you...and making it easier for the sponsor truthfully will only make it easier on you
<persia> nixternal: Multiple options tend to be confusing to contributors, and cause sponsors to only process the ones in the format they understand.
<LaserJock> something like "As opposed to bug fixes and merges, for new upstream releases providing the entire source package is a must. Convenient ways to do so are .."
<persia> nixternal: That doesn't scale for unknown parties.
<nixternal> a lot of my style comes from crimsun since he sponsored a lot of my packages a couple of years ago, and I did it the way he liked it, therefor making it easier for him too
<sistpoty> heh
<persia> LaserJock: That's precisely the behaviour interdiff was instituted to stop
<LaserJock> persia: which I thought was weird
<LaserJock> the source package is what I'm sponsoring, not an interdiff
<sistpoty> maybe we should first think about what needs to be checked for new upstream versions...
<sistpoty> 1) is it applicable in the cycle/in general
<persia> LaserJock: I can't reliably reconstruct about 10% of the new upstreams I see in REVU or the sponsors queue.
<sistpoty> 2) are the source not screwed
<LaserJock> persia: that's a different problem
<sistpoty> 3) any breakages
<LaserJock> IMO
<sistpoty> anything I missed?
<persia> LaserJock: Yes, which was solved by interdiffs
<LaserJock> persia: but that seems to be the wrong solution to the wrong problem
<geser> sistpoty: perhaps: 4) did the licensing change?
<sistpoty> right
<persia> sistpoty:I think that 1) that is different than interdiff vs. diff,gz, 2) we already do that, and 3) it's best left to MOTU judgement
<LaserJock> basically a new upstream release should be reviewed similarly to NEW
<geser> some upstream are updating their license to GPL3 to debian/copyright needs to be updated too
<LaserJock> just not quite a thoroughly
<persia> LaserJock: Should it?  We decided in feisty not to have both be the same.
<sistpoty> persia: so 2) is best solved with interdiff, right? but for 1), 3) and 4) you'll still need manual judgement
<LaserJock> persia: perhaps you misunderstand me. I was saying in what we're looking at, not the tools to do so
<persia> sistpoty: I now believe that 2 is best solved by diff.gz, but yes.
<sistpoty> hm... *thinking*
<persia> LaserJock: Ah.  Yes, but the mechanism and tools influence that to some degree.  I'd not mind just diff.gz for new upstreams, but that's a different issue, and more complicated.
<LaserJock> k
<sistpoty> hm... just a .diff.gz will mean that the sponsor needs to get the orig-tar in some way, which I guess (w.o. some automation) is an additional burden for the sponsor
<LaserJock> well seems like 1) should be done in bug report, 2) a diff.gz or link to .dsc 3-4) ya gotta look at the thing
<persia> sistpoty: Less burden than for an interdiff though.
<ScottK> Hopefully there's a watch file for that.
<sistpoty> persia: right
<sistpoty> maybe I'm missing s.th., but imo apt-get source package and dget newpackage would be the easiest way for a sponsor to achieve all points?
<persia> sistpoty: And that's the only problem I wished to solve today. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/ReviewProcessConvergence is the right way to solve 1, 2, and 4.
<persia> sistpoty: Historically, sponsors haven't done well at checking against upstream.  Lots of repacks that cannot easily be constructed causing difficult merges due to not only variance in md5sum of orig.tar.gz, but variance in contents.
<sistpoty> persia: so you see 2) as biggest problem to solve?
<persia> The use of interdiff in gutsy and hardy has helped with that a lot, and I didn't see so many of those during the hardy merge cycle.  I think this is because of the tools, rather than because the sponsors are more careful.
<sistpoty> ok
<LaserJock> persia: that's kind of no so good though, IMO
<LaserJock> it's putting a band-aid on people not doing the right thing
<LaserJock> if we're having problems with MOTUs not being careful enough we need to address that
<persia> sistpoty: I think 3 and 4 are the biggest problems.  I think many people aren't sure about 4, and we need better testing for 3.
<sistpoty> yeah, it leaves the feeling, that sponsors aren't really checking what they are supposed to do
<sistpoty> so I guess we fix a different problem (sponsors not checking) with .diff.gz or interdiff, right?
<LaserJock> a diff.gz at least already has to be created
<nixternal> is "sponsors aren't really checking what they are supposed to do" the cause of this? is it a problem that we do need to in fact confront and fix?
<persia> I'd much rather address it with positive steps to cause the checks, like using interdiff/diff.gz, providing the suspicious-source script, etc. rather than telling people they aren't doing it right.
<LaserJock> so it's no more effort
<LaserJock> persia: but if they aren't ...
<LaserJock> like I could totally be doing things wrong and not be aware of it
<nixternal> ya, if they aren't doing it right, I would rather tell them so and have them fix it
<LaserJock> and I'd hate it if nobody told me
<nixternal> that is how it was around here in 2006 for sure...people had no problems doing a /msg and saying "hey, you did this wrong, this is how you do it"
<sistpoty> well, I won't say that .diff.gz/interdiff isn't a solution to sponsors not checking, though I still have some doubts if we'll be able to manage all new upstream versions with this
<persia> Who wants to volunteer to check reproducibility of orig.tar.gz files?
<LaserJock> so what problem are we trying to fix again?
 * sistpoty must admit, that sistpoty always did it by hand, and *always* found it a pity to do so
<nixternal> heh, it seems we are uncovering other problems trying to find a fix for the original now
<persia> sistpoty: I've only seen one case where get-orig-source didn't work, and it was a multiverse package with registration required to see the source.  In most cases, a watch file is present, and works.
<LaserJock> are we having problems with .orig.tar.gz files not being the same as upstream?
<persia> sistpoty: Agreed.  Part of why I asked for standardisation to interdiff previously was with the intention of creating a script to automate it.  This only changed because diff.gz being easier was explained to me in some detail.
<LaserJock> I've seen it occasionally, I actually did one myself I hate to admit, but is it a widespread problem?
<sistpoty> persia: we've had some upstreams package their own software, and that's where I always said "ok, release a good version later" if the orig-tarball wasn't sane
<sistpoty> but maybe this is a side issue
<nixternal> I have seen a couple of those recently LaserJock
<persia> LaserJock: Yes.  I see lots of those.
<LaserJock> ok, so why aren't people checking the .orig.tar.gz?
<nixternal> LaserJock: don't feel bad, I just did one recently myself...we are human in a way :p
<LaserJock> it shouldn't cause too many problems, it's more of a "doh, I can't believe I did that"
<persia> LaserJock: lack of concern.  trust of the packager.  Lack of an easy way to do it (especially for repacks), etc.
<nixternal> LaserJock: could be that some people may not know how to correctly check the .orig.tar.gz for one?
<sistpoty> well, I've thought about that since a very long time ago, but have never done it: "Reviewing the reviewers" (and giving polite hints)
<sistpoty> maybe I should finally start that one
<LaserJock> nixternal: they shouldn't be MOTUs if they can't figure out how to check a .orig.tar.gz
<persia> sistpoty: I think that would be helpful, but think it is part of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Spec/ReviewProcessConvergence
<LaserJock> well, we shouldn't really be doing many repacks for one thing
<nixternal> LaserJock: true, but most of the time it is easy to just get lucky and not have any problems with the .orig.tar.gz until that one time
<persia> LaserJock: We need to do that in a very large number of cases for tar.bz2, .zip, etc.
<LaserJock> and if you're gonna upload with an  -sa you should check the .orig.tar.gz if you don't know for sure
<persia> LaserJock: Yes, but does everyone?  Automating it seems good to me because 1) it forces the check, and 2) it makes it easier to repack the next upstream for the next person
<LaserJock> persia: right, but we shouldn't have to check those all that much
<LaserJock> persia: but it's *not* forcing a check
<persia> LaserJock: What?  Why not?
<persia> Err.  That's why not to both "we shouldn't have to check those all that much" and to "it's not forcing a check"
<LaserJock> it's just shifting responsibility and making it easier for people who don't do the right thing to get away with it
<LaserJock> and I don't understand why were doing all this repacking
<persia> LaserJock: Because the archive requires tar.gz.  Upstreams don't all provide one.
<LaserJock> I understand that
<LaserJock> but presumably this is being done in Debian
<nixternal> uupdate -u has been my friend 99.5% of the time with new upstream luckily
<persia> Regarding "forcing the check", I only mean checking it matches upstream, so diff.gz really contains all the patches.  Checking the actual code is a different issue.
<LaserJock> so we should have few occasions to have to check this stuff
<sistpoty> nixternal: for my own packages, I either checked by hand or have upstream commit rights, so I know what's going on *there*
<persia> LaserJock: This *never* applies to sources we get from Debian.  This is only new orig.tar.gz files in Ubuntu which are not in Debian.
<nixternal> sistpoty: ya, I have that advantage with KDE packages, but other packages I don't
<LaserJock> persia: then they should be in Debian
<sistpoty> hehe
<LaserJock> I don't understand why we're doing so much in Ubuntu when it seems we can't do it well
<persia> LaserJock: No.  We already decided to allow REVU, and this isn't the agenda item with which to reverse that decision.
<LaserJock> but this directly effects the topic
<LaserJock> if we keep allowing people to trash our archive and in fact pushing them to do so, then it's gonna cause problems
<LaserJock> if we aren't willing to clean it up and have MOTUs that can properly review a new upstream tarball then we should have Debian do it
<ScottK> LaserJock: I don't understand what you're getting at?
<persia> I don't consider it to be trashing our archive.  We just need to check to make sure the packages are still clean when they are updated.  Also, we pull a lot of new upstreams ahead of Debian because of our differing release schedule.
<sistpoty> well, universe was always some kind of testing ground, and I guess it will (and should!) stay so. Admitted, that we've become far more professional than a few release cycles ago
 * persia thinks Edgy was a low point for Universe, and it is improving
<sistpoty> agreed ;)
<LaserJock> ScottK: I'm getting at that most all of this could be "fixed" if people got things into Debian
<LaserJock> I can't believe we have almost 800 packages in Universe that aren't in Debian
<ScottK> LaserJock: I agree that'd be better, but that's more of a strategic question and I think we're on tactics here.
<nixternal> LaserJock: I can agree with that, and that works great sometimes...
<LaserJock> 1/3 of the package we have to maintain are not in Debian
<sistpoty> LaserJock: universe is (apart from debian) the main source for new good MOTUs and later core-devs. Of course there's fallout, but I wouldn't know how to predict that in advance
<persia> LaserJock: That really doesn't help for fly-by-night packagers who push something in, and don't plan to maintain.  Having watch files, using diff.gz, etc. helps to make team maintenance of these easier, if they are considered useful.
<nixternal> I can believe we have 800 packages in Universe that aren't in Debian...I have had a few ITPs get challenged with a "we have something similar, why is this better"
<LaserJock> so my thought is that maybe attacking the root of the issue is long-term better for us than putting a band-aid on it
<nixternal> I can't believe we don't have more actually
 * jpatrick just got a universe package of his into Debian
<nixternal> Debian can be a pita for getting a package into at times
<sistpoty> LaserJock: but what's the root? and how to fix?
 * persia wants both bandaging and long-term care
<LaserJock> well, as I see it anyway:
<LaserJock> 1) new packages should be done in Debian when possible
<nixternal> and for me, when there have been updates upstream, I have filed a bug with Debian that went unanswered for some time, or attempting direct communications toward the Debian maintainer went unanswered
<persia> nixternal: Right, which can get very painful as we approach feature freeze.
<nixternal> even sent diffs and the whole ball of wax
<LaserJock> 2) if MOTUs aren't keeping up QA standards then we need education, review, and a helpful hand
<nixternal> LaserJock: I can't agree more with both of your points actually, especially #1 even considering how difficult it can be
<LaserJock> now, I agree with persia that both bandaging and long-term care sounds good
<sistpoty> 1) call me the exception, but it took some time... finally all my packages are in debian
<sistpoty> 2) fully agreed
 * ScottK has all his packages in Debian too.
<LaserJock> nixternal: I think it can be much easier to get packages into Debian than into Ubuntu
 * nixternal has about 90% now in Debian
<nixternal> LaserJock: well, Ubuntu doesn't ask "what makes this better than package x which is similar?"
<nixternal> Debian does, and they stick to it
<sistpoty> LaserJock: w.o. getting (my first) pet package of me into ubuntu in a few weeks, I doubt that I would have stayed as a ubuntu maintainer
<LaserJock> nixternal: it should, and it should be easy to answer that question
<LaserJock> anyway
<Lamego> selecting between  open source projects an easy answer ?
<LaserJock> I kinda feel like people view Universe as a crutch so they don't have to get stuff in Debian
<persia> I don't think Ubuntu should be asking that question.  I prefer competition in universe as the best means to find ideal solutions.  The one-best-solution thing is tricky.
<LaserJock> hah, like Debian doesn't have competition?
<nixternal> I am with persia on that one
<LaserJock> they just don't want people just packaging for packaging's sake
<LaserJock> they want something that's gonna be maintained, as we should
<nixternal> LaserJock: Debian does, but with them denying ITPs or RFPs just because something similar is already in their repos, that doesn't breed competition imo
<sistpoty> well, I agree to persia, though we don't really have a way find the results of the competition when it comes to orphaned packages
<persia> LaserJock: Rather, they enforce that rule as a way to reduce packaging random cruft as a path to DD without integration with the rest of the distro.
<LaserJock> nixternal: you just ask somebody else
<nixternal> LaserJock: hahaha, that has worked for me, but someone new who hasn't been around long, it isn't going to work
<persia> sistpoty: That's a different problem (and a much harder one).
<sistpoty> LaserJock: I guess your statement right now is closest to what I see the root of the problem: "packaging for packaging's sake"
<LaserJock> I would be rather surprised if Debian just out-and-out rejected a package you plan to maintain
<sistpoty> persia: which I hope we'll be tackling rather sooner than later ;)
<nixternal> man, we are getting to the point of "where we need stats, solid stats", yet have no way to really produce them (ScottK, sound familiar from say, 2 hours ago?)
<persia> I think the solution to that is to work on the wiki, and point new people to bugfixing and patching.  merges, new upstreams, and REVU aren't the right things to be doing, and pushing the "packaging guide" doesn't help.
<LaserJock> anyway, perhaps we should get the particular agenda item resolved?
<ScottK> Agreed.
<sistpoty> Agreed
<ScottK> There's an agenda item?
<nixternal> lol
<LaserJock> persia: redoing the packaging guide, IMO, would be a good idea to make it more friendly to bug fixing and patching
<nixternal> ScottK: don't you remember, you filled in for persia's topic because he was afk? :)
<LaserJock> so votes on interdiff or diff.gz?
<nixternal> OK, what was the reasoning for that again? :p
 * ScottK has had a nap in the meantime.
<nixternal> been a while since we talked about them
<nixternal> hahahaha
<sistpoty> hehe
 * persia proposes "Request diff.gz in preference to interdiff when receiving new upstreams for review" as the subject for a vote.
 * sistpoty still prefers dgettable urls
<sistpoty> (attached to the bug report)
 * nixternal thinks all of this talk is making for a good recipe honestly
<nixternal> and not of the cooking variety
<LaserJock> sistpoty: well, a diff.gz is pretty close
<persia> sistpoty: hardy ubuntu-dev-tools will have a script to make it easy based on the decision in this meeting.
<nixternal> should I go ahead and call the vote then for this with MootBot?
<LaserJock> sistpoty: the only additional thing is that the sponsor has to do is get the .orig.tar.gz
<sistpoty> ok, go ahead with the vote
<nixternal> [VOTE] Request a diff.gz in preference to interdiff when receiving new upstreams for review?
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Request a diff.gz in preference to interdiff when receiving new upstreams for review?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 * persia requests people to vote based on interdiff vs. diff.gz, rather than on the larger issues
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<sistpoty> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sistpoty. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<LaserJock> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from LaserJock. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<RainCT> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from RainCT. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<LaserJock> wow, I've never seen that before
<LaserJock> when did we get this?
<sistpoty> LaserJock: MootBot?
<nixternal> he has been here for a while, jsut not many people use him?
<persia> October or so
<nixternal> any other voters?
<LaserJock> oh, I see
<nixternal> ScottK:?
<ScottK> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ScottK. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<nixternal> #endvote
<sistpoty> [ENDVOTE]
<nixternal> derr, I can't believe I did that again
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<sistpoty> ;)
<nixternal> they need to update the wiki page :)
<sistpoty> that's why /me likes votes... long discussion, but short vote *g*
<LaserJock> there's a wiki page?
<nixternal> LaserJock: it is part of the Scribes Team
 * LaserJock wonders where he's been
<persia> LaserJock: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam/MootBot
<nixternal> is that all for today?
<LaserJock> I vaguely remember something about there being a scribes team
<sistpoty> nixternal: fixed points are still left (next meeting time)
<nixternal> oh ya
 * persia proposes 15th February, 12:00 UTC
<nixternal> [TOPIC] Next meeting time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next meeting time
<nixternal> [IDEA] persia proposes 15th February @ 12:00 UTC
<MootBot> IDEA received:  persia proposes 15th February @ 12:00 UTC
<sistpoty> ok with me
<nixternal> that is a bit early :)
<nixternal> 06:00 here
<ScottK> How about 13 UTC?
<nixternal> but I don't need to be here, so if it works for everyone else
<persia> nixternal: Yes, but it's currently 06:15 here :)
<nixternal> jeesh
<sistpoty> nixternal: that's a bad starting attitude for a new MC member :P
<nixternal> hehehe
<persia> ScottK: conflict with MOTU Q&A session
<nixternal> I don't want to be the 1 stinker among the many
<sistpoty> hehe
<nixternal> if I have to wake up early, I guess I will need to start working on that
<nixternal> you are taking the freedom loving hippy out of me though :p
<ScottK> For me that's right in the middle of getting the kids out the door for school time, so it's essentially impossible
<sistpoty> any other proposals?
<persia> 13:00 UTC is also 0:00 in Sydney.  Maybe 11:00 UTC?
<nixternal> 06:00 UTC :) that is midnight for me :) and lord knows I am still awake at that time
 * sistpoty will be eating lunch then, but sistpoty wouldn't be able to be fully present during work time anyway
<persia> I can't get to much earlier than 10:00 UTC, but I've attended lots of meetings: I can miss one if required.
<nixternal> I think we need a list showing everyone's best times for a meeting...like we used to do with the doc team a couple of years ago when we had meetings :)
<sistpoty> nixternal: that would cause the scheduler to segfault, due to no options *g*
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> we had a nice wiki page that listed each member and their best times for being available
<sistpoty> let's just vote... candidates so far are 11 UTC and 12 UTC, right?
<persia> We've been rotating between 20:00 and 12:00 for a while.  We could change that, but I'm afraid of going back to the old scheduling discussions which sometimes caused 6 weeks to pass without a meeting.
<persia> sistpoty: 13:00 was also proposed (by ScottK)
<sistpoty> persia: but has conflicts in #meeting... but nixternal also proposed 6 UTC
<sistpoty> right?
<persia> Right.
<nixternal> no, I was kind of joking on that one because that would be way to early for others more than likely
<persia> Wait, conflicts in #meeting?  resolvable conflict in #classroom
<LaserJock> we should just rotate 4 hrs each time
<sistpoty> persia: oh, sorry, so that's an option too
 * persia prefers 8 hour rotation
<sistpoty> so at 28UTC *g*
<nixternal> lol
<persia> Works for me: scheduling is more flexible on the weekend.
<LaserJock> persia: yeah, that works
<persia> LaserJock: So you want to propose 04:00 UTC?
<nixternal> that might be past his bed time though :)
<LaserJock> whatever
<LaserJock> I don't care what it is
<LaserJock> but I think it'd be nice to establish some sort of schedule
<sistpoty> let's just vote, shall we?
<nixternal> do we have 3 times in which to vote for? what times are we looking at right now?
<persia> sistpoty: We can only vote on binary conditions.  Lots of votes maybe?
<sistpoty> persia: it could be a non-mootbot vote ;)
<nixternal> if we have 3, we can still use MootBot to count it for us, use +1 for one time, -1 for another, and +0 for another
<sistpoty> cool
<nixternal> list the 3 times and I will put it to action
<sistpoty> so we have 4 utc, 12 utc and...?
<sistpoty> 11 or 13?
<sistpoty> if noone is against, I'd say 11 as 3rd option (qa-conflict)
<sistpoty> 3
<LaserJock> 4,12, and 20 I think are generally good
<sistpoty> 2
<sistpoty> then what LaserJock wrote ;)
<nixternal> [VOTE] Next meeting time: Vote +1 for 04:00 UTC, -1 for 12:00 UTC, +0 for 20:00 UTC
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Next meeting time: Vote +1 for 04:00 UTC, -1 for 12:00 UTC, +0 for 20:00 UTC.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> damn, there are 2 good ones for me now :)
<persia> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from persia. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<sistpoty> -1 | +0
<MootBot> -1 received from sistpoty. 0 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -2
<LaserJock> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from LaserJock. 1 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<nixternal> +1
<RainCT> +0
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 2 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 0
<MootBot> Abstention received from RainCT. 2 for, 2 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<nixternal> heh
<sistpoty> +1
<nixternal> you can only vote once :)
<sistpoty> damn, I can't recast
<persia> sistpoty: No double voting :p
<nixternal> only the city of Chicago can double vote, or vote for dead people
<sistpoty> heh
<LaserJock> lol
<nixternal> ScottK:?
<nixternal> superm1:?
<LaserJock> nixternal:  Vegas is pretty good at that too
<nixternal> true
<nixternal> geser:?
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
<ScottK> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from ScottK. 2 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
<superm1> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from superm1. 3 for, 3 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<nixternal> jeesh
<sistpoty> noooo
<nixternal> come on geser, be the tie breaker :)
<txwikinger> the dead people can vote as often as they want in Chaicago
<geser> nixternal: reading the scrollback as my DSL-line comes and goes today, one moment
<persia> Regardless of the vote, based on the interest in 04:00 UTC, I think we should choose that time, as we haven't had a 04:00 UTC meeting in months, while the other two have had heavy attendance.
<nixternal> no problem
<sistpoty> *drum rolling for geser*
<geser> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from geser. 3 for, 3 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 0
<nixternal> gahahahah
 * sistpoty starts to not like votes any longer *g*
<nixternal> haha, I am with you on that one
<LaserJock> it's looking good though
<geser> at the other times I'm either sleeping or at work with no IRC
<LaserJock> it means we have interest in all 3 times
<nixternal> rock, paper, scissors?
<sistpoty> I'd agree with persia though
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 3 against. 2 abstained. Total: 0
<persia> Actually, let's just institute a standard rotation of 04:00, 12:00, 20:00, 04:00...
<nixternal> persia: are you up and breathing MOTU at 04:00 UTC?
<persia> nixternal: Sometimes.  Depends on the client.
<LaserJock> persia: that's what I was trying to say
<persia> (it's lunchtime here)
<sistpoty> persia: sounds sane, given the long discussion time for only the next meeting time
<nixternal> [VOTE] Meeting rotation schedule or 04:00 UTC, 12:00 UTC, and 20:00 UTC
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Meeting rotation schedule or 04:00 UTC, 12:00 UTC, and 20:00 UTC.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<sistpoty> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from sistpoty. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<superm1> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from superm1. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<LaserJock> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from LaserJock. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nixternal> this is looking good
<persia> +1 with a note that 28;00 UTC becomes 04:00 UTC so it always happens on Friday UTC.
<geser> are the enough people for a meeting at 04:00 UTC? /me remebers meetings at 00:00 UTC where nearly nobody was there
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<geser> we can try it if it works out
<persia> geser: This is the first time I've seen lots of votes for 04:00 UTC, but as we get more interest from the Americas, it should see more activity.
<nixternal> RainCT or ScottK?
<nixternal> glad I can spell in the vote topic, s/or/for
<LaserJock> yeah, that's 8pm for me
<ScottK> 0
<nixternal> add a plus to it
<ScottK> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from ScottK. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
<RainCT> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from RainCT. 6 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 6
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 6
<LaserJock> so was the first agenda item discussed? renaming motu-uvf?
<nixternal> yes
<sistpoty> LaserJock: yes
<persia> LaserJock: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/02/01/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<nixternal> it will be named motu-release per vote
<sistpoty> wohoo we've found the date for the next meeting :)
<superm1> was there a vote for who is on motu-release then too?
<nixternal> [AGREED] Next meeting will be 04:00 UTC
<superm1> or is that next meeting?
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Next meeting will be 04:00 UTC
<persia> superm1: There's a call for candidates: polls will probably be set up Monday.
<sistpoty> superm1: no, that'll be on LP iirc
<superm1> ah okay
<nixternal> so now is the meeting ok to be adjourned?
<sistpoty> +1
<nixternal> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:39.
<persia> Do we know who is doing minutes and announcements?
<nixternal> w00t, good meeting
<sistpoty> big thanks for hosting, nixternal
<nixternal> persia: minutes should be done by the scribes team
<sistpoty> and thanks for everyone around :)
<nixternal> I will look into that
<persia> nixternal: They don't.
<nixternal> yes, thanks everyone!
<persia> Anyone, about announcements?
<nixternal> persia: OK, then I will scribe them out
 * sistpoty would volunteer for announcements
<persia> Yay!
<nixternal> groovy...I am looking into this MootBot thing now
<nixternal> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20080201_2004.html
<nixternal> nice layout
<persia> nixternal: The times are links to the full log too, making it easy :)
* ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 15 Feb 04:00 UTC: MOTU | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-26
<linuxsoom> @schedule Vancouver
<ubottu> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
<linuxsoom> @schedule Vancouver
<ubottu> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
<linuxsoom> @schedule vancouver
<ubottu> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
<stdin> @schedule
<ubottu> An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
<stdin> @reload Webcal
<ubottu> The operation succeeded.
<stdin> @schedule
<ubottu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: No meetings scheduled
<stdin> I hate you ubottu
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-27
<robbmunson> be back in just a few minutes, gotta restart kde
<elkbuntu> hmm.. must be the not-now week
<cjwatson> Keybuk: around?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: clan says Matt and Mark won't be
<Keybuk> yup
<Keybuk> badly timed typing break
<cjwatson> I don't see a whole lot of business, though
<cjwatson> patent policy from mdz, presumably in abeyance until next week
<Keybuk> I think we have to do your swearing in :)
<cjwatson> you can approve my subscription to technical-board@ if you like ;-)
<cjwatson> I swear to faithfully preserve, protect, and defend the code of conduct ... oh wait, that's the community council
<Keybuk> ok, ML subscription approved
<Keybuk> welcome aboard
<cjwatson> ta muchly
<Keybuk> dholbach: are there any outstanding nominations we should consider?
<dholbach> Keybuk: which were the last ones that you processed?
<dholbach> Keybuk: I'll check the archives, hang on
<cjwatson> did we process the request for selective upload for Stefan Bader?
<cjwatson> s/we/you/
<dholbach> Keybuk: Dustin was the last one
<Keybuk> dholbach: Dustin Kirkland, Stephan Graber (LTSP)
<dholbach> ah yes, Stephane too
<Keybuk> cjwatson: we did, that was approved
<dholbach> then it's all resolved now
<cjwatson> I'm curious as to which applications are in the MC pipeline
<Keybuk>  * Open Applications: Nick Ellery (UUC), Jonathan Thomas (MOTU),
<Keybuk> Michael Casadevall (core-dev), Alessio Treglia (MOTU)
<dholbach> they're all in process still and we plan to have them resolved soon (before we hold our meetings and move to the new process)
<dholbach> some are lacking votes, some are lacking input from sponsors
<Keybuk> *nods* the new process looked good
<dholbach> thanks for the flowers
<dholbach> :)
<Keybuk> I don't see anything from the other outstanding issues that is ready for discussion yet
<Keybuk> ok, any business from anyone today?
<cjwatson> has the calendar stuff from last meeting been resolved?
<cjwatson> it seems that we just need to invite the appropriate magic address
<cjwatson> I can do that now, if folks would like
<Keybuk> matt recorded an action to follow up with the news team, but I don't know whether that has been done
<james_w> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Fridge/Calendar
<Keybuk> the technical board meeting still doesn't appear there
<cjwatson> let me try
<james_w> they are now using google calendar, and the drupal calendar is abandoned
<cjwatson> there it is
<cjwatson> that should be the whole series added now
<cjwatson> and indeed http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar is now correct
<Keybuk> heh, did we both do that ?
<cjwatson> maybe :)
<Keybuk> well, it seems that google figured it out anyway ;)
<Keybuk> that should be paired with the event our calendars, right?  so if we move it, it'll move on the fridge
<cjwatson> I *think* so
<cjwatson> Daniel asked if we could look at the per-package uploader proposal
<cjwatson> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/private/technical-board/2009-January/002892.html
<Keybuk> good idea
<dholbach> persia, soren, nixternal: around?
<Keybuk> http://pastebin.com/m2ea34e91
<Keybuk> ^ public viewable copy
<dholbach> thanks Keybuk
<soren> dholbach: hm?
<cjwatson> my main concern, on a quick reading, is that ditching the expectation of social integration with the larger team altogether seems to invite problems
<cjwatson> I agree that per-package uploaders don't need to be quite so plugged into the development community as generalist developers
<dholbach> soren: talking about "per package upload" requirements
<Keybuk> cjwatson: this has been my general concern as well; I still feel it's important that per-package uploaders still consider themselves to be Ubuntu Developers and participate in the wider community
<Keybuk> also that the MOTU team, as it currently stands, seems most effective at supporting its own members and potential members
<cjwatson> but we have talked recently about single-package-only uploaders having TB voting rights and generally being considered Ubuntu developers, which seems to point towards some degree of social cohesion
<Keybuk> and I'm not sure how per-package uploaders would get support for problems they encounter
<dholbach> is there specific portion of the text that you'd like to be changed or something else to be added?
<cjwatson> I'm offering hopefully-constructive criticism rather than a patch :-)
<Keybuk>   1) There is no expectation that the applicant meets the requirements
<Keybuk>   of Ubuntu Membership, so the prior demonstration of significant and
<Keybuk>   sustained contribution to Ubuntu is waived.
<Keybuk> as I understand it, we are explicitly talking about granting ubuntu membership rights to such uploaders
<dholbach> cjwatson: OK, I'm not asking you to write it, but what do you feel is the specific expectation that you'd have in that regard :-)
<cjwatson> I'd sort of like the proposal to incorporate the notion that the candidate should be working with other Ubuntu developers rather than against them
<Keybuk> therefore it seems alien to me that the requirements would be waived
<nixternal> yo yo
<Keybuk> cjwatson: indeed, this goes on to specifically say that per-package uploaders need not be expected to work on the team or be integrated with it
<cjwatson> I have a concern that we might be approving developers who have an entirely different mindset about how the system should work, and might proceed to make their package conform to their view of the world, without regard for wider integration
<nixternal> dholbach: what's up?
<cjwatson> this kind of thing, indeed, *has* been a problem, and the fact that we expect developers to work as part of a team is very important in mitigating it
<dholbach> I'm all for per-package uploaders working with the community and understanding that there's no "lock". And that they demonstrate that they have worked with others beforehand.
<Keybuk> otoh, where this has worked so far has been in the kernel team
<Keybuk> where there's explicitly an expectation that they do work with that team
<Keybuk> and they are being granted upload rights *because* they work closely with that team, and to avoid them having to rely on their team-mates for sponsorship
<cjwatson> I would be happier if the proposal said "There is a reduced expectation that the applicant is socially integrated ..." rather than "no expectation"
<dholbach> Still they might have worked with a smaller set of sponsors and the expectations on a technical level are different from what we expect from applicants now.
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I'm not sure I'd even be happy with a reduced expectation
<Keybuk> somebody who can upload to Ubuntu should see themselves as a fully socially integrated member of the Ubuntu Developer team
<Keybuk> I would rather the distinction was simply viewed as a technical one
<cjwatson> dholbach: sure, they don't have to work with everyone on the planet, but I don't agree that we should be laying out criteria that allow for a per-package developer to work in their own little corner and disregard what else is happening
<cjwatson> or, at least, criteria that suggest that that's OK
<Keybuk> a per-package uploader is somebody with a specific skill set that uploads a package they are familar with
<cjwatson> (obviously it's not put that way right now, I'm elaborating)
<Keybuk> a MOTU member is somebody who's skill set is wide and varied
<dholbach> cjwatson: I definitely agree with what you're saying and will work with the MC to make it clearer in the proposal
<persia> I'm happy with the idea of requiring all developers to be members: that proposal was written some time ago.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: yeah, that matches my expectation more closely, I must say: narrow skills, broad openness to integration
<cjwatson> dholbach: I certainly agree that the technical expectations are very different; no argument there
<dholbach> Keybuk: what interests me most is cases where people really just care about one or two package, have worked with one or two sponsors (through the process, understanding our processes and stuff), but have merely added a patch or two or packaged new upstream version, but on the other hand demonstrated that tey deeply care about the package and have an excellent bug story and an excellent upstream story to tell
<cjwatson> the "does not grant sole-maintainership" bit in Emmet's proposal is good
<Keybuk> dholbach: those are the cases that worry me most
<Keybuk> because I forsee those people being so attached to their package that, if they are not also socially integrated with Ubuntu, will lead to difficulties
<Keybuk> they might revert patches other Ubuntu developers make to their package
<Keybuk> they might fail to participate in transitions or large-scale work that affects their package
<cody-somerville> The barrier to MOTU is not overly high. Why even allow per-package uploader rights to not-motu?
<cody-somerville> *non-motu
<Keybuk> (and I would claim that this already happens)
<dholbach> cody-somerville: because it's very hard to judge in cases like the one I described above
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: because, at the moment, the MOTU barrier involves demonstrating an ability and interest in general contributions
<persia> I'd rather expect single-package-uploaders to fail to participate in transitions or other large-scale work, just from lack of notification, if nothing else.
<Keybuk> cody-somerville: MOTU has general upload access to the entire universe component, and as such, applicants are expected to be technically diverse in their skills
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: (and this is expected to evolve with archive-reorganisation)
<cjwatson> persia: and I think that's OK, it's clearly not their interest
<Keybuk> I guess what'd I expect from per-package uploaders is somebody who meets all the social requirements of MOTU
<cody-somerville> That doesn't seem to be the case. I see a lot of applicants get approved base on a sub-set of interest.
<persia> Right.
<Keybuk> and has made a sustained contribution
<cjwatson> persia: as long as they don't block it
<Keybuk> but only in a small subset of area
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: it has been a practical problem in a number of specific cases
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: cf. the kernel developers who are only interested in hacking on the kernel and so don't build up the packaging experience needed for MOTU
<Keybuk> Matthew East is a good example here, he has had a single package sponsored for a long time now, and is well integrated into Ubuntu
<dholbach> Keybuk: you said that these cases worried you the most - what would ease your fears there, what kind of story would you like to see first?
<Keybuk> he would seem to be an obvious choice, even though he is not a MOTU member
<Keybuk> dholbach: I think we go back to "why can't they be members of MOTU" ?
<cjwatson> dholbach: the warning bell for me is when they start off by saying that Ubuntu's doing it all wrong :-)
<cjwatson> (which can be OK, obviously there are some things we *are* doing wrong, but it can also be a sign of somebody with a very fixed agenda)
<dholbach> cjwatson: I'll make a note to check archives and Google for instances of them saying that before sending in my +1 :-)
<persia> Keybuk, Could I ask you to please not use the phrase "MOTU Member"?  It's somewhat confusing, and has been misused by others.  Would just "MOTU" work for your meaning?
<cjwatson> perhaps we could say "generalist developer" ;-)
<persia> That might be even better, as it looks towards archive reorganisation.
<Keybuk> ok, let me a little more specific
<dholbach> Keybuk: being MOTU would not help mdke
<cjwatson> dholbach: I think personally I'd like to see examples of them working with other Ubuntu developers to at least some extent, even if that's just constructive engagement with their bug reports
<cjwatson> mdke would pass that with flying colours
<dholbach> cjwatson: sounds good
<Keybuk> If somebody wishes upload rights to a package, why would we not simply require that they join the development team that maintains that component and provides upload rights as part of the team permissions?
<cjwatson> well, because many packages aren't in any team smaller than "Ubuntu developers"
<dholbach> Keybuk: how do you judge that if they just touched one package (and did it well), but their main contribution was liaising with users, upstreams and other distro maintainers?
<persia> Keybuk, What if there exists no such specialised team, and they are the only one who wants to work on that specific package?
<Keybuk> dholbach: let me pick up on a point there already
<Keybuk> you suggest that they should already have been touching that package in Ubuntu
<Keybuk> assumedly through sponsorship
<Keybuk> I agree wholeheartedly
<dholbach> *nod*
<Keybuk> that they are liasing with users, upstreams and other distro maintainers suggests that they are using Launchpad and the Ubuntu Mailing lists already
<Keybuk> the only difference to my mind:
<Keybuk> - if they have contributed to a wide variety of different packages, they are suitable for a generalist team membership
<Keybuk> - if their contribution has been to a narrow set of packages (or even just one), they are suitable for per-package upload rights
<Keybuk> all other requirements should be the same
<persia> I think there's three categories.
<persia> There's generalist developers
<Keybuk> Generalist UBUNTU Developers
<Keybuk> Ubuntu developers who are generalists
<persia> There's specialist developers in a given interest area (e.g. Xubuntu, Games, etc.)
<Keybuk> Specialist UBUNTU Developers ;)
<persia> And there's people who want to work on *one* package.
<persia> Yes, s//Ubuntu/ in all lines above.
<Keybuk> I see the one package as a very narrow interest area
<dholbach> that sounds good, the only trouble is: if the "packaging skills demonstrated" merely consist of "just" packaging a new upstream release or "just" adding an upstream patch, the requirements ARE different :)
<cody-somerville> Keybuk, SUPER Specialist UBUNTU Developer?
<cody-somerville> ;]
<dholbach> please don't get caught up into nomenclature again :-)
<Keybuk> dholbach: does MOTU not already have this problem?
<persia> Keybuk, Is it worth creating the infrastructure of a layer for one person for one package?
<Keybuk> what if a prospective applicant has had a very large number of sponsored uploads, all of which have been just packaging a new upstream release or just adding a new upstream patch?
<cjwatson> I don't think you should infer technical infrastructure (layers) from social structure (interest areas)
<dholbach> Keybuk: it's a lot easier to judge when somebody demonstrated their abilities on a variety of packages and did "packaging changes that were necessary"
<cjwatson> (and no, it isn't worth it)
<Keybuk> dholbach: I think it's easier to judge someone's skills as a generalist
<Keybuk> but not much more
<persia> cjwatson, Well, fair, but I'm thinking in terms of implementation.  I'd rather that those with a narrow interest (in an entire layer) have a slightly different process than those with interest only in a specific package.
<dholbach> Keybuk: I still think we should make that clear in the expectations we set
<Keybuk> questions I might ask a prospective per-package uploader:
<Keybuk> 1. there's a new upstream version available; what's changed? why is it not packaged?
<cjwatson> persia: I don't see a reason to create a separate layer for individual packages, and it would result in more work for archive admins for little gain
<Keybuk> 2. you're not a bug contact for this package, why not?  (and -200 points)
<Keybuk> 3. there's several bugs that haven't yet been triaged in Launchpad, have you looked at these?
<Keybuk> 4. what are your thoughts on the open High priority bug #nnnn ?
<cjwatson> persia: as Mark said on the phone a week or two ago, packages and package sets (a.k.a. layers) should be like people and teams - you can use either in place of the other
<cjwatson> at least as far as the access controls go
<Keybuk> 5. package foo is quite similar, and uploads have been made by Ubuntu developer X - have you talked to them?
<cjwatson> (now, obviously that's a bit down the line in terms of actual LP implementation, but)
<persia> cjwatson, Agreed.  Similarly, I think we want slightly different requirements for per-package uploaders and uploaders to a layer.
<cjwatson> persia: absolutely
<dholbach> Keybuk: I'm very happy with the questions you ask and I'll make sure I'll massage that into the proposal.
<Keybuk> where a layer is aligned with a team, I'm actually less nervous because that developer is clearly joining an existing team
<persia> And presumably, is welcomed by the existing members of the team, who can provide support, mentoring, guidance, etc.
<Keybuk> it's the lone developer that worries me
<Keybuk> assumedly on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of...no, wait
<persia> That's different :)
<cjwatson> let's put it as "likely to require additional assistance", shall we? :)
<dholbach> Keybuk, cjwatson: before we move the topic to Archive Reorg, is there anything else you would like to see covered in a new proposal that was not raised yet? :)
<persia> cjwatson, Well, maybe.  Again, the handy example is Matthew East.
<dholbach> I'll be moving the existing proposal back to the drawing-board. :-)
<dholbach> Thanks a bunch for your input
<cjwatson> persia: well, he's a likely-to-pass candidate, not a dubious candidate, surely
<Keybuk> of the existing three candidates for specific upload rights, two seem to me to demonstrate that they consider themselves Ubuntu developers with a specialist interest in a package
<Keybuk> the other seems to be to be a developer who just wants to upload his package, and has not demonstrated a contribution to Ubuntu thus far
<Keybuk> (avoiding names since it's unfair if they're not here)
<Keybuk> I think that the policy, as worded, does not encapsulate that difference - and in some ways seems to deliberately try and get rid of it
<persia> If we add the requirement of Ubuntu Membership, as previously discussed, it makes the line much easier to draw.
<persia> The current proposal specifically doesn't require this, but that's simple to change, and provides protection in the sense that we select from those who already identify with Ubuntu.
<Keybuk> I think I would agree with that
<Keybuk> persia: will you take the action to redraft the proposal and resubmit it to the TB?
<persia> Keybuk, Sure.  Am I just changing the Membership, or is there more? (I'll review the meeting log for details if the latter)
<cjwatson> I think it's a bit more than that; review the log
<persia> OK.  I saw a few things, and wanted to check :)
<cjwatson> I can give a brief update on the state of play with archive reorg
<Keybuk> let's hold the issue of the candidates in abeyance until we agree on the policy
<Keybuk> cjwatson: please do
<Keybuk> we have ~9 minutes
<cjwatson> I've introduced the notion of restricted layers into the spec
<cjwatson> I've added sections on how the ogre model will work, and on some anticipated community factors
<cjwatson> I've changed the proposed permissioning around to encapsulate what I believe to be current consensus
<cjwatson> the permissioning has one rather curious feature
<cjwatson> it has a "core" layer, which remains necessary for the ogre model and for partial mirrors
<cjwatson> but the permissions on the "core" layer are simply "Ubuntu [generalist] developers", the same as for all packages in no layers
<cjwatson> I think this is actually OK, and explain why I think that in the spec, but it does look a bit curious :)
<Keybuk> oh?
<cjwatson> I've explicitly introduced the term "general developers" (should probably change that to generalist)
<cjwatson> "(It looks a little odd to have this require the same level of access as the "core" layer, but the different layers are required in order to preserve things like ogre model and the ability to produce working partial mirrors, and in practice this models the "broad and shallow" type of developer quite well.)"
<Keybuk> sounds fair
<Keybuk> I'll re-read the spec ;)
<cjwatson> my next steps are: to prepare a rough set of requirements for the Soyuz team (including a transition plan of sorts); and to start work on an example layerised archive
<cjwatson> I want to have something on people.ubuntu.com that you can point experimental versions of apt and friends at in order to see what the new world order would look like
<persia> One note is that members of MOTU belong to the ~motu team, rather than ~ubuntu-dev.  ~ubuntu-dev contains both ~ubuntu-core-dev and ~motu.
<cjwatson> this will both afford us the opportunity to test the tool changes, and let us work on the layer migration itself
<cjwatson> persia: noted, will adjust
<cjwatson> though of course ubuntu-dev is appropriate at some places in that spec where we're really talking about the union (e.g. "ability to upload to current universe" -> ubuntu-dev)
<cjwatson> having an example layerised archive will let people play about and answer quite a few questions, I think
<cjwatson> that will have to come with some basic tools to sync up with the current archive overrides
<persia> Also, as a suggestion for the conflict between "Ubuntu Developer" being the term for merged core-dev and MOTU vs. "Ubuntu Developer" being the term for all Ubuntu Developers in the new model, it may be best to merge the current teams separately, and then add any new developer teams to ~ubuntu-dev
<cjwatson> I suspect that the resolution there is to call the merged one "Ubuntu Generalist Developer" or something
<cjwatson> but I've been holding off on that because, frankly, it sounds clunky :-/
<persia> That seems sensible.
<cjwatson> I don't have a better suggestion at the moment
<cjwatson> anyway, that's all from me for the moment - there'll be a call with the Soyuz team next week
<Keybuk> ok, we're about to run into the server team meeting ...
<Keybuk> do we have any other business?
<cjwatson> (once Mark is back from gallivanting)
<cjwatson> nothing from me
<Keybuk> ok, adjourned then
<Keybuk> thanks all
<nijaba> o/
<nealmcb> \o
<Koon> \o/
 * mathiaz waves
<mathiaz> Let's get the Ubuntu Server Team started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<zul> hi ho neighborarinos
<soren> o/
<sommer> hey all
<mathiaz> what a busy agenda! let's get moving
<mathiaz> Last week minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090120
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] SRU for ebox
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU for ebox
<mathiaz> so I've uploaded ebox 0.12 to the new jaunty archive
<mathiaz> sommer: that means the SRU process for intrepid can move on.
<sommer> mathiaz: great, thanks
<mathiaz> sommer: do you have the three bug numbers?
<sommer> one sec
<mathiaz> sommer: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/273486
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all" [Undecided,New]
<mathiaz> sommer: ok - I don't find the others
<sommer> bug 255368
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 255368 in ebox "ebox: Depends: libapache-authcookie-perl but it is not installable " [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255368
<sommer> and the dbug gconf one
<mathiaz> sommer: is there a bug number for the latter?
<sommer> mathiaz: bug 314606
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 314606 in ebox "ebox and libebox don't support Intrepid gconf version" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/314606
<sommer> that's them :)
<mathiaz> sommer: ok - I've just mark bug 273484 fix released
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273484 in ubuntu "monitors wont go to sleep " [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/273484
<mathiaz> sommer: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ebox/+bug/273486
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 273486 in ebox "Current eBox packages in intrepid don't work at all" [Undecided,Fix released]
<mathiaz> sommer: all the three bugs are fixed in jaunty and the intrepid SRU can move along.
<sommer> mathiaz: I'll get with foolano and whip up some new debdiffs
<mathiaz> sommer: the next step is to get the debdiff for the sru prepared, ACKed by the sru team and then sponsored to intrepid-proposed
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to prepare new debdiff for the ebox intrepid SRU
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to prepare new debdiff for the ebox intrepid SRU
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] ACL by default
<MootBot> New Topic:  ACL by default
<mathiaz> ivoks: ^^ did you create a wiki page?
<ivoks> mathiaz: nope :/
<ivoks> mathiaz: probably tomorrow
<mathiaz> ivoks: anything else to report on this topic?
<ivoks> no
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks to create wiki page to keep track of ACL support in packages
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks to create wiki page to keep track of ACL support in packages
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] DRBD in jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  DRBD in jaunty
<ivoks> drbd is uploaded
<mathiaz> ivoks: ^^ ? is dbd working in jaunty?
<ivoks> yes
<mathiaz> *drbd*
<mathiaz> ivoks: what kind of test did you conduct?
<ivoks> mathiaz: two vritualized machines
<ivoks> i'll do upgrade tests too during this week
<mathiaz> ivoks: could you write down some test instructions?
<ivoks> sure
<mathiaz> ivoks: so that they can be put in a wiki page and other can also help out in testing
<ivoks> of course... but in two-three days
<mathiaz> ivoks: I'd suggest to create a subpage under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/
<ivoks> ok
<mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks to write a wiki page for conducting DRBD testing under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks to write a wiki page for conducting DRBD testing under https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Screen profiles
<MootBot> New Topic:  Screen profiles
<mathiaz> kirkland: what's the state of screen and screen-profiles now?
<kirkland> mathiaz: screen-profiles is in main
<kirkland> mathiaz: screen recommends screen-profiles
<nijaba> and it kicks asses
<kirkland> nijaba: yes, multiple asses :-)
<sommer> heeeh
<kirkland> mathiaz: so here's my question for the Ubuntu Server team .....
 * mathiaz plays the drums
<kirkland> mathiaz: what could/should we do with the default /etc/screenrc ?
<cjwatson> conffiles and alternatives are unlikely to be friends; I recommend not using alternatives (as suggested in the agenda)
<ivoks> i'm for vanilla /etc/screenrc
<kirkland> cjwatson: okay, so not update-alternatives .....
<ivoks> just because most of the people expect that
<mathiaz> kirkland: how many different screen profiles are there now?
<nijaba> ivoks: a lot of people expect linux desktop to be command line only, if we go that direction...
<kirkland> ivoks: i agree that that's been the traditional screen profile, but i think we've created something cool, and very Ubuntu-unique ... could be a nice advantage of using the Ubuntu Server
<kirkland> mathiaz: for Ubuntu, 3 basically....  the plain vanilla one, ubuntu-light, and ubuntu-dark
<ivoks> nijaba: that's correct, but i was thinking more about people who do know how to use cli and screen
<kirkland> mathiaz: we also have profiles for debian, etc, but those are not installed on ubuntu
<kirkland> ivoks: they won't be using screen then
<nijaba> ivoks: run a test, and ask how many admin DO know about screen, you'll be surprised
<kirkland> cjwatson: do you have any other suggestion, if not alternatives?
<cjwatson> I haven't looked into it at all; I was just raising a warning flag rather than purporting to have an alternative :)
<kirkland> cjwatson: thanks
<mathiaz> kirkland: what are you trying to accomplish actually?
<cjwatson> although I would say, why is this a root-only thing?
<mathiaz> kirkland: IIUC you're asking what we should put in /etc/screenrc
<kirkland> cjwatson: its not at all a root-only thing
<cjwatson> alternatives and other solutions that involve moving things around in /etc are root-only
<mathiaz> kirkland: and we have 3 choices
<kirkland> cjwatson: any user can have this profile, if they run 'select-screen-profile'
<cjwatson> if you aren't focusing on root-only, you should be thinking about options that users can easily set
<nijaba> kirkland: what about it being installed by default with ubuntu-standard?  it is quite easy to put back to default
<cjwatson> ah, well, who cares about what's in /etc then
<ivoks> here's an idea...
<ivoks> default screen prompts text, that nobody reads
<kirkland> cjwatson: b/c that's what you get if you don't (know to) run 'select-screen-profile'
<ivoks> is it possible to put a list of profiles there?
<ivoks> that would be selectable? :)
<ivoks> just an idea...
<nijaba> ivoks: in "select-screen-profiles" ?  that's alreay the case
<kirkland> ivoks: ah that's an idea, perhaps .... on that screen we could say "run 'select-screen-profile' if you'd like some advanced features, etc."
<nijaba> and once screen is launched, you can change it using the screen profile helper
<ivoks> kirkland: no... you would run select-screen-profile
<mathiaz> kirkland: how does the sensible-editor selection work?
<ivoks> kirkland: and, on first run, let people choose
<kirkland> ivoks: i like that, choose on first run
<ivoks> kirkland: people that want plain screen, wouldn't notice anything
<ivoks> kirkland: they would just hit enter
<kirkland> mathiaz: that's sort of how select-editor works
<ivoks> kirkland: people who run it for the first time, they would be 'wow, look at that...'
<kirkland> mathiaz: ivoks: cool, i think that's a plan
<Koon> melikes ivoks plan
<mathiaz> kirkland: seems like we could try a similar workflow for screen profiles selection
<cjwatson> sounds appropriate
<mathiaz> kirkland: do you have an idea on how to do that?
<ivoks> right, just as select-editor
<kirkland> mathiaz: cheers.  thank you brilliant community
<Koon> especially as usual screen users are trained to ignore that screen anyway
<mathiaz> kirkland: are you planning to work on that?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i think /usr/bin/screen becomes a wrapper script to see if you've selected a profile;  if so, just launch screen.  if not, run select-screen-profile, then launch screen
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'll have it done by the end of today ;-)
<nijaba> \o/
<ivoks> nice
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to implement screen-profiles selection tool
<nealmcb> kirkland: the "home page" for this is listed as https://launchpad.net/screen-profiles on launchpad - is that right?  I want to know where to point people from https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to implement screen-profiles selection tool
<ivoks> good job kirkland
<kirkland> nealmcb: correct
<nealmcb> will do :)
<mathiaz> let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] EtcUnderRevisionControl status
<MootBot> New Topic:  EtcUnderRevisionControl status
<mathiaz> Koon: ^^ what's going on there?
<Koon> Just a quick update on that project, which you may have heard (with the epic delay) at UDS
<ivoks> i'm sorry, but i have to leave... bbl
<Koon> The design is finalized, it's heavily relying on etckeeper
<Koon> everything should be implemented directly into etckeeper
<Koon> The idea is to improve etckeeper and its bzr plugin to be a little more user-friendly
<mathiaz> Koon: is there anything to test?
<Koon> mathiaz: not yet. I created a project and a team on launchpad
<Koon> interested people are welcomed to join, I already have Jelmer Vernooij (author of current bzr etckeeper featured) in
<mathiaz> Koon: is the spec up-to-date wrt to the implementation plan?
<Koon> the spec is up to date, ready to be accepted
<mathiaz> Koon: what are the names of the team and project in LP?
<jdstrand> Koon: what's the project name in LP?
<Koon> project: etckeeper
<Koon> team: etckeeper
<jdstrand> gee, I could have guessed that...
<Koon> it's manually synced with the GIT tree
<Koon> at upstream
<Koon> and we have Ubuntu branches in there
<mathiaz> Koon: so you're waiting for the Spec to approved?
<Koon> mathiaz: yes.
<Koon> Joey Hess (upstream) has been quite open to intergating more advanced features
<Koon> so they should find their way back into core
<mathiaz> Koon: great. You should ping dendrobates about aproving the spec
<Koon> he is pinged already
<jdstrand> Koon: I haven't followed the spec closely since UDS. will this require changes to bzr as well?
<Koon> jdstrand: it /could/ use a few more hooks
<dendrobates> Koon: he already did.
<dendrobates> er mathiaz
<Koon> jdstrand: especially to catch all permissions-upsdating corner cases
<jdstrand> Koon: not that it should be a factor in your devel work, but I was curious how easy it would be to backport to hardy
<jdstrand> Koon: IIRC, the hooks cannot be done via bzr plugins-- is that accurate?
<mathiaz> dendrobates: are you planning to review the blueprint soon?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: yes.
<Koon> jdstrand: hooks usually are in bzr core, and plugins use them
 * jdstrand nods
<Koon> but you could theorically add a hook by plugin, it just doesn't make much sense in the common scenario
<mathiaz> [ACTION] dendrobates to review the etc-under-revision-control blueprint
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dendrobates to review the etc-under-revision-control blueprint
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server Team Bug Days
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team Bug Days
<mathiaz> zul: what's your idea?
<zul> yeah so I was thinking that other teams have similar things where they hang out on the bugs channel and get people to help fixing bugs, i believe its a good way to get people involved
<mathiaz> right. We had one bug day organized by the bug team
<mathiaz> that was about 1 3/4 years ago
<zul> well we should have another one organized soonish
<mathiaz> so I'd suggest to ask the Bug team about it
<mathiaz> they'd be more than happy to help out and we'd reach much more people
<mathiaz> than just organizing a Server Bug day in the server team.
<mathiaz> bdmurray: what should we do to get a Server Team Bug day organized?
<zul> well thats what I was thinking as well we need someone to approach them
<dendrobates> mathiaz zul: I am arranging a discussion between all of us at the sprint.
<zul> thats it from me :)
<zul> dendrobates: nifty
<mathiaz> dendrobates: ok. We'll talk about this topic next week then.
<mathiaz> let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] ncrypted private/home with filename encryption available
<MootBot> New Topic:  ncrypted private/home with filename encryption available
<kirkland> \o/
<mathiaz> kirkland: what did you do?
<kirkland> i uploaded a new ecryptfs-utils-69 package that enables filename encryption, if your kernel supports it
<kirkland> rtg on the kernel team backported ecryptfs filename encryption from 2.6.29 to 2.6.28
<kirkland> and i completed the userspace bits this weekend to make this work with encrypted home and encrypted private
<mathiaz> kirkland: awesome.
<kirkland> so, if you were to use ecryptfs-setup-private on an up-to-date jaunty system, you would see that your filenames are now encrypted as well, in your underlying .Private dir
<kirkland> and transparently decrypted for your in Private
<kirkland> same goes for encrypted home
<mathiaz> kirkland: so upgrade are automatically handled?
<kirkland> mathiaz: dammit with the hard questions!
<kirkland> mathiaz: :-)
<kirkland> i still have some work to do on "live migration"
<kirkland> with some help from jdstrand, we came up with a theoretical design to solve this
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok - so you get filename encryption on new installs only.
<mathiaz> kirkland: for now
<kirkland> i'm flying to Germany tomorrow;  i hope to hack that live migration script then
<kirkland> mathiaz: right
<kirkland> mathiaz: if you wanted to take advantage of this, you should backup your cleartext data elsewhere
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok - do you have specific instructions for testing this?
<kirkland> mathiaz: then do a new ecryptfs-setup-private (fresh, empty dir)
<kirkland> mathiaz: and then rsync your data back in
<kirkland> mathiaz: i will blog about it this week
<cjwatson> note that the desktop CD's still busted, this is server/alternate install CD only still
<mathiaz> kirkland: great.
<kirkland> cjwatson <- is right
<kirkland> but i think we  (evand, cjwatson) mostly know whats wrong there
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to make a call for testing filename encryption
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to make a call for testing filename encryption
<kirkland> cjwatson: i have set ecryptfs-setup-private to automatically use filename encryption, if possible
<kirkland> cjwatson: so no further changes in that respect should be required from you dudes
<mathiaz> excellent news kirkland !
<mathiaz> kirkland: is there anything else to add on this topic?
<mathiaz> kirkland: once the installer has support for this is there anything else left to be done for jaunty?
<kirkland> mathiaz: encrypted swap
<kirkland> mathiaz: i *strongly* believe that any user using encrypted home or encrypted private should really be using encrypted swap
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok - that's a different (but related) topic
<mathiaz> kirkland: for encrypted directories I meant
<kirkland> mathiaz: in such cases, all of the encrypted data lives as cleartext in memory
<kirkland> mathiaz: should that memory get swapped to disk, it's swapped to disk in the clear, unless swap too is encrypted
<mathiaz> kirkland: is this something targeted for jaunty?
<kirkland> mathiaz: in the very worst case, i plan on adding a script to ecryptfs-utils that would attempt to setup your system for encrypted swap
<kirkland> mathiaz: to be run at the user's discretion after installation
<kirkland> i'm guessing that this item probably won't make the installer at this point
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok. seems like a good first step.
<kirkland> i hope to talk to the foundations team about this next week
<mathiaz> kirkland: FYI FeatureFreeze is in 3 weeks
<kirkland> mathiaz: and the live migration scripts
<kirkland> mathiaz: right
 * kirkland is looking forward to FF :-)
 * kirkland <--- late nights
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<nealmcb> I updated https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI to note the latest info on screen and screen-profiles.  feel free to jump in
<sommer> I have a quick question about the installer.  are we going to be using lvm by default, there was some talk about it at UDS?
<soren> sommer: Noone's been working on it, AFAIK.
<nealmcb> !screen
<ubottu> screen is a terminal multiplexer. See http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/3/9/16838/14935 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Screen
<nealmcb> I'll update that factoid also - input welcome
<sommer> soren: okay, I just was wondering for documentation reasons
<mathiaz> nealmcb: great - thanks.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] nealmcb to update the screen factoids
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nealmcb to update the screen factoids
<mathiaz> anything else?
<jdstrand> I might mention that ufw now has debconf/preseeding support
<cjwatson> kirkland: I think you'll be lucky to get encrypted swap by default
<kirkland> cjwatson: not "by default"  ... i've abandoned that
<cjwatson> sommer: I saw that there had been a requirement mentioned for it, but nobody wrote up the UDS session *at all*
<kirkland> cjwatson: but "when encrypted home is selected", would be ideal
<cjwatson> i.e. there's a server-installer-partitioning spec that doesn't even have a wiki link set
<cjwatson> kirkland: I doubt that's feasible for jaunty. Sorry
<kirkland> cjwatson: right
<sommer> cjwatson: ah, well maybe for jaunty+1
<cjwatson> does anyone care enough to watch the UDS videos corresponding to server-installer-partitioning and write it up so that I have some clue what the design is supposed to be?
<cjwatson> I understood that it had got demoted in priority, which is why I haven't been making too much noise about it
<kirkland> cjwatson: let's discuss contingency plans next week.  i'm thinking now about an ecryptfs-utils provided script that would do the magic for you, in some constrained cases.  and then document/warn that it needs to be run, for more security
<cjwatson> kirkland: it's already on the foundations agenda for next week
<nealmcb> I think the encrypted swap session was at noon on the 11th: http://videos.ubuntu.com/uds/jaunty/Server/2008-12-11/morning-post-break/
<sommer> cjwatson: from my UDS notes and memory, it was only mentioned during the server raid discussion, as sort of a sidebar
<kirkland> cjwatson: awesome, i'll be there with bells on :-)
<sommer> cjwatson: err the lvm discussion
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> same place, same time, next week?
<kirkland> k
<sommer> works for me :)
<cjwatson> sommer: ok, that doesn't make it very easy to have a clue on what to implement, given that there are known problems with the post-installation tools
<dendrobates> cjwatson: I think it was not actually help to allow for even more cloud discussions/
<dendrobates> cjwatson: I'll review what I have, though.
<mathiaz> ok - see you all next week
<mathiaz> same time same place here.
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:01.
<pgraner> Hello Everyone.... Time for the Kernel Team Weekly Meeting... yay!
<Koon> \o/
 * apw is here
 * cking too
<pgraner> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is pgraner.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * smb_tp as well
<nealmcb> Hey - what about next week?  Maybe at the same time?
 * nealmcb oops
 * rtg is messing with encrypted file names.
<pgraner> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<pgraner> That is the agenda
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels
<smb_tp> Ok
<pgraner> smb_tp: whats new in your world?
<smb_tp> Security is waiting just for the upload for dapper to intrepid
<smb_tp> intrepid is a special upload as it is identical to the last proposed and hopefully very soon -updates kernel
<smb_tp> (just a little test away)
<pgraner> why so "special"?
<smb_tp> It diff only on the changelog
<rtg> I didn't understand why pitti required a special upload
<smb_tp> rtg, not pitty kees
<BenC> So the -security kernel is just the same as the -proposed kernel?
<smb_tp> He wanted to have the CVE visible
<rtg> I think we need to talk about this stuff next week
<smb_tp> BenC, correct
<smb_tp> rtg, Agreed :)
<BenC> smb_tp: so did the cve get uploaded to -proposed before it was sent to -security?
<smb_tp> But with the current queue of intrepid I did not want to argue
<smb_tp> BenC, The CVE's (on the current list) just were included in previous uploads already
<BenC> smb_tp: Ah, makes more sense then
<pgraner> [ACTION] smb_tp to hold sidebar as sprint on this latest upload case
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smb_tp to hold sidebar as sprint on this latest upload case
<pgraner> s/as/at/
<smb_tp> Ok
<smb_tp> So, currently backing a bigger intrepid next-proposed
<pgraner> smb_tp: how are the upstream stable updates looking. I see there are a ton of them
<smb_tp> We got two -stable updates there
<pgraner> :-)
<smb_tp> Yeah, a few look important and scary, so I like to have them tested well
<smb_tp> Scary in the sense that the muck around in mm
<cking> that's unpleasant
<pgraner> yea I saw that
<rtg> they're pretty straightforward
<smb_tp> And four of those patches are changing the AI
<smb_tp> err ABI
<pgraner> smb_tp: any other things we should know about?
<smb_tp> Lemme thin
<smb_tp> Hardy will have to be reloaded after security
<smb_tp> The request is to include there some vmware patches as well
<smb_tp> Since they are bumping ABI I am abit reluctant there
 * pgraner nods
<smb_tp> Probably queueing them until there is another reason
 * rtg is in favour of ABI bumps between major updates
<smb_tp> We might do. The point release is done by now
<pgraner> smb_tp: anything else?
<rtg> which is why I'd like to see an ABI bump
<smb_tp> cking, Is doing some test with them. So if he finds them useful it might be more reason
<smb_tp> No, thats all I can think of
<cking> smb_tp, they did not address the issue
<rtg> frankly, the vmware patches alone are enough reason.
<smb_tp> rtg, We beer it out next week
<pgraner> Great... moving on to everyones favorite topic....
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Jaunty Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Jaunty Status
<pgraner> We have alpha 4 next thurs...
<pgraner> and a few actions according to the calendar
<pgraner> * Finalize the compiled in modules and online docs
<pgraner> * Finalize the removal of lrm and creation of DKMS pkgs
<rtg> I think the list of built in modules is stable
<rtg> wrt LRM: probably ain't gonna happen for Jaunty
<pgraner> * Document what we turned on from the /staging directory publicly
<pgraner> * Reduce grub timeout
<rtg> staging: rt2860/2870
<BenC> grub timeout done
<cking> reduce grub timeout even further?
<cking> ah
<pgraner> cking: no that was the overall task needed to be complete
<pgraner> cking: I know it was hurting you the other day...
<rtg> I uploaded 2.6.28.2 -stable Sunday, it just got NEWed an hour ago.
<rtg> apw has submitted patches for vanilla kernel build, still reviewing
<pgraner> rtg: wrt to LRM then we need to move it off to Jaunty+1, what was the reason?
<rtg> because of wl mostly. it is still required by default in some cases.
<pgraner> rtg: ok
<pgraner> rtg: on staging... those are the only drivers we enabled out of all the crap?
<rtg> so far.
<BenC> rtg: wlan-ng/prism wasn't enabled?
<BenC> I thought we switched out everything that was duped in ubuntu/
<rtg> I've not had any requests
<rtg> I also need to check for dupes.
<pgraner> [ACTION] rtg to check for /staging /ubuntu dupes...
<MootBot> ACTION received:  rtg to check for /staging /ubuntu dupes...
<BenC> debian/config/i386/config:CONFIG_PRISM2_USB=m
<BenC> rtg: wlan-ng is enabled
<BenC> in staging
<rtg> BenC: but thats still under the ubuntu directory
<BenC> rtg: ew...then we have ambiguous config options enabled
<rtg> it only looks taht way, but in truth it won't compile unless you DTRT
<apw> we'll get both i assume
<BenC> rtg: the one in staging is getting build...not the one in ubuntu
<BenC>  /lib/modules/2.6.28-5-generic/kernel/drivers/staging/wlan-ng/prism2_usb.ko
<rtg> hmm, thats unexpected,.
<apw> would we not get both
<apw> BenC, do you have the ubuntu one?
<rtg> even if we get both, the driver in staging is the one that gets loaded first. but, we need to weed out the dups
<BenC> apw: nope, just the staging one is in -5
<pgraner> apw: how are we looking for this round of suspend/resume?
<apw> the final bit for apport has been merged and uploaded
<apw> we have gotten a couple of reports back, so it is working (the automation)
<pgraner> apw: were they usefull?
<apw> one was a battery run flat the others seem real
<pgraner> s/usefull/useful/
<apw> the only confusion is the users always seem confused and put
<apw> "i don't know why this poped up, so i have no idea what occured"
<apw> where they might have told us something useful
<ogasawara> apw: yah, I've seen a few like that
<apw> that may be because its is saying crash in the output
<sconklin> that's good information - pitti and I discussed adding a new class of apport report for these, which would let us customize the presentation to the user
<apw> i also don'tknow why it asks for the description
<apw> as they really have no information at that point to put in the one liner
<apw> and appport knows its a suspend error
<sconklin> apport thinks it's a kerneloops
<sconklin> That was the most reasonable error type to report it under
<pgraner> sconklin: apport need some schooling
<apw> yeah but even for a kernel opps, popping up a box saying "summary of your bug"
<sconklin> Yes, I'll talk with pitti about it again
<apw> when the user has no clue whats in the report, isn't helpful
<pgraner> ogasawara: When is the next/updated call for testing going out?
<pgraner> apw: do we need any docs changes on the wiki for the changes that were made since A3?
<ogasawara> pgraner: I can send it whenever we're ready, but I'd just assumed around Alpha4
<apw> pgraner, not sure there is anything specific to that, but more review is needed overall
<lieb> sconklin, add me to the conversation w/ Martin
<pgraner> ogasawara: fine by me :-)
<sconklin> lieb: ok
<pgraner> lieb: how crashdump/kernel oops going?
<lieb> have a patchset for new kerneloops
<lieb> crashdump next
<lieb> I'll send it around after meeting
<pgraner> lieb: will it be in a4 or a5?
<lieb> testing today, packaging this week
<pgraner> lieb: so I take it A4...
<lieb> how long the pipeliine after that I don' tknow
<apw> i note kerneloops is not installed by default, are we planning on making it a default install
<amitk> apw: mdz has agreed to it in principle
<lieb> Martin sent me something about nominations and inclusion meetings...
<pgraner> apw: we need to talk to the foundations guys on that, lieb I'd ping robbiew and see what he says
<amitk> we just need to check if it still runs as root or drops privilegs
<lieb> ok
<pgraner> BenC: how did we make out with the removal of the ACPI suspend bits...?
<BenC> pgraner: acpi support is making use of dbus-pm and dbus-hal by default
<lieb> amitk, k-oops keeps root. it reopens /dev/dmesg each time
<BenC> pgraner: so it's mostly unused, unless the user switches it manually in the config file
<apw> lieb, what does it use /dev/dmesg for?
<apw> something that running dmesg cannot do?
<lieb> tries that first, then /var/log/messages
<pgraner> BenC: the task was to get rid of all but the one method of suspend...
<amitk> lieb: that might be an objection to installing it by default.
<BenC> pgraner: and it in affect is
<BenC> pgraner: dbus-pm is the default...dbus-hal is the fallback
<BenC> they are essentially the same method
<pgraner> BenC: the problem in the past was users were reading on the web to use acpi supsend and would turn it on or use the /etc/acpi/*.sh scripts, and complicate the bug reports...
<pgraner> BenC: are the scripts gone?
<BenC> pgraner: No, I can easily remove it though...I must have misunderstood the reasoning behind it
<pgraner> BenC: ok, we are trying to present one unified way to suspend and keep the confusion down to a min
<BenC> pgraner: understood
<pgraner> [ACTION] BenC to remove /etc/acpi/*.sh scripts
<MootBot> ACTION received:  BenC to remove /etc/acpi/*.sh scripts
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Vanilla Kernel Builds
<MootBot> New Topic:  Vanilla Kernel Builds
<pgraner> rtg, apw: sup with $TOPIC?
<rtg> apw has presented some patches, still reviewing
<rtg> I think we'll work it out next week
<pgraner> rtg: I raised the priority on the RT ticket for the git stuff
<pgraner> rtg: let me know if it stalls out and I'll escalate
<apw> yeah we have some scripts which seem to make workable kernels.  so we need to get the environment to run them sorted out
<rtg> thanks, it'll be required to fully implement vanilla builds
<pgraner> rtg: s/escalate/beg/g
<rtg> pgraner: I'm sure the key folks that I need will be in Berlin
<pgraner> rtg: ack on that
<pgraner> rtg: what do estimate as a ETA for this?
<rtg> sometime after A4
<pgraner> rtg: thanks
<pgraner> [TOPIC] ARM
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM
<pgraner> amitk: anything to report? Welcome back from holiday :-D
<amitk> thanks
<rtg> where are the ARM porter machines?
<amitk> I am finishing up changes to our build system to allows us to cross compile arm on our intel boxes
<amitk> something like: debuild -b -eARCH=armel -eCROSS_MPILE=arm-linux-
<pgraner> rtg: I have the RT # and its still not complete
<amitk> this should speed up kernel build testing quite a bit
<rtg> amitk: that would be outstanding.
<rtg> is there a cross compile tools package
<rtg> ?
 * apw cheers for that idea
<cking> ..and where is all this documented?
<amitk> no. But I'll post instructions on how to get a tar ball and set up an environment
<rtg> wfm
<apw> tarball yeeks
<amitk> perhaps we can nudge doko to provide a cross-compile toolchain in berlin over beer
<apw> yeah i'd contribute a beer to the pot for that one
<rtg> hey, I can live with tarballs. ANYTHING to speed up the builds.
<amitk> besides this I am working through the OEM boards and patches
<pgraner> amitk: thanks...
<amitk> over...
<pgraner> [TOPIC] LPIA
<MootBot> New Topic:  LPIA
<ogra> any news on the linux-omap merge ?
 * pgraner pauses
<pgraner> amitk: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<amitk> ogra: still working with the maintainer to get a set of base patches
<ogra> we'd like to somehow involve the community ... most of them have beagle boards, so having omap packages (at least for that) would gain us a lot user help
 * amitk agrees
<ogra> additionally we have a lot of n8x0 users
<amitk> but merging the tree in its current state will cause a heavy maintenance burden
<ogra> though thats not as pressing since the boot setup requires some tinkering anyway
<ogra> yeah, indeed i dont want to push you into something like that :)
<amitk> unfortunately I can't give a date. Only promise that it will happen :)
<ogra> the current HW we support in the kernel doesnt really gain us much is the prob ... nobody will run ubuntu-desktop on his nslu2 :)
<pgraner> [TOPIC] LPIA
<MootBot> New Topic:  LPIA
<ogra> but thanks for the info so far
<pgraner> sconklin: how is that hairball?
<rtg> aack, phpht
<sconklin> I have a handle on the differences between the netbook tree and ours - but
<pgraner> always a "but"
<sconklin> Just discovered that there is a separate branch in the netbook tree with some commits that are needed, so I'm looking at that
<cking> it's quite a hairball
<sconklin> and then next week we can discuss how to manage this moving forward
<lool> i'd like to know about the hardy patches
<lool> Not the one from the netbook tree, the ones in the hardy official tree
<lool> Living as lpia specific patches
<lool> It seems these are missing for proper support of some lpia devices both in intrepid and jaunty
<sconklin> can you provide some examples?
<rtg> how about moving thios to the mailing list?
<sconklin> cool
<lool> debian/binary-custom.d/{lpia,lpiacompat}/patchset in ubuntu/ubuntu-hardy.git
<pgraner> rtg: ack on that... we are running down on time
<lool> I am not in a position to sort them out myself
<pgraner> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<lool> So who's sending the hardy patches to the ML?
<pgraner> Anyone need to raise anything quickly as we only have 4 min left
<apw> lool i think we want you to remind us of where these patches are on the mailing list
<apw> nothing here
<amitk> lool: add them to the pending issues thread
<lool> Hmm ok; albeit sconklin cking yourself and pgraner were in copy
<lool> amitk: it's in there...
<lool> Since the beginning
<amitk> lool: ok.. i thought you had more examples
<ogra> point 3)
<lool> Well I have more specific examples such as the SSD in the jax10
<ogra> in the list
<lool> Which I filed as a bug back in the intrepid cycle
<lool> As a result we have half the storage on the jax10 when running intrepid
<apw> perhaps we need to get some tags on the bugs so we can find them all
<apw> kernel-lpia or summat
<lool> I filed only one bug about these patches, but I discovered that the bug was a result of the patches being dropped and that's why I wanted them screened/reviewed
<lool> And possibly merged
<pgraner> lool: lets take this offline and get it sorted... we are about out of time.
<pgraner> There will not be a meeting next week due to the sprint in Berlin!
<pgraner> We will pick up the following week 9 Feb
<ogra> we'll all bug you all the time in preson :P
<ogra> *person
<pgraner> Thanks everyone
<pgraner> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:00.
<lool> ogra: I'd prefer resolving at least some issues before the sprint
<amitk> bye
<ogra> lool, for lpia you mean ?
<lool> ogra: For whatever isn't low priority
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-28
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> hey Mooty...what's up?
<robbiew> lol
 * mvo waves
<evand> hi
<TheMuso> greetings
<Keybuk> robbiew: I haven't set you my activity summary yet, sorry
<robbiew> no worries...you aren't alone ;)
<cjwatson> here
<robbiew> james_w?
<james_w> hi!
<robbiew> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/Meetings/2009/0128#Agenda
<robbiew> liw is out....doko?
<slangasek> morning
<robbiew> ok...can get started
<doko_> here
<robbiew> has everyone gotten a chance to post and/or comment on the distro sprint team agenda?
<slangasek> == Sponsorship ==
<slangasek>  * missed this week; will do double-duty next week
<slangasek> == Misc ==
<slangasek> gar damn mouse
<robbiew> http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/Foundations
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/Foundations
<robbiew> slangasek: no worries :)
<robbiew> "cruft remover/update-manager quirks code merge coding session [liw, mvo] "
<robbiew> this will obviously not happen...at least in person
<cjwatson> oh, is liw not going to be in Berlin either? :(
<Keybuk> robbiew: yes, I've added a few bits
<evand> What still needs to be done for GRUB UUID support?
<robbiew> liw injured his back
<Keybuk> :-(
<Keybuk> is liw ok?
<doko_> yes, added
<evand> out of curiosity
<robbiew> Keybuk: yes
<cjwatson> evand: it locates the root filesystem using UUIDs; but it doesn't locate its own stage1.5 that way
<robbiew> Keybuk: drugged and resting
<mvo> :( poor liw
<evand> right, apologies you mentioned that before
<cjwatson> which I believe is the last remaining piece until grub no longer really cares about drive order
<cjwatson> I was reminded about this by a rather inflammatory forums thread recently, and we really ought to clear it up
<evand> indeed
<cjwatson> do send my regards to liw if you're speaking with him
<robbiew> there's also a cross-team agenda
<robbiew> http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/GlobalAgenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Sprints/Jaunty/GlobalAgenda
<robbiew> cjwatson: will do
 * Keybuk spent an entertaining hour dealing with GRUB being unable to find stage 2 (I think) the other day
<robbiew> I didn't really put much on the global agenda...dendrobates should be updating with an EC2 demo
<robbiew> in any case, we're roomies...so I can drag him into our room if needed :P
<robbiew> Keybuk: it was mentioned that perhaps we do an overview of boot performance work...interested?
<robbiew> I didn't agree to it, or anything
<robbiew> maybe a rehearsal for FOSDEM presentation ;)
<Keybuk> robbiew: sure
<robbiew> cool...I'll let randa know
 * robbiew has a presentation! whew
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> moving along...Feature Status
<robbiew> http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.04
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/Foundations/9.04
 * Keybuk must finish his fosdem presentation
<robbiew> need Specs at least ready for Review by this Friday
<Keybuk> robbiew: my spec is ready for Review ;)
<robbiew> if you don't think you can make it...let me know
<robbiew> also, would like to know when you expect to deliver
<robbiew> i.e. which milestone
<slangasek> my specs will be there
<slangasek> as dubious as that might seem at the moment :-)
<robbiew> ok, thnx
<robbiew> lol
<Keybuk> robbiew: I guess I'll finish the last major changes for beta
<robbiew> Keybuk: okay
<robbiew> next is the usual
<robbiew> bugs...bugs...bugs
<robbiew> 9 bugs for Alpha 4...nice
<slangasek> I may supplement those numbers before Friday, yet
<slangasek> :)
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> figured
<robbiew> nice work on the buglist...everything under Foundations has an assignee
<robbiew> except
<robbiew> 78552
<robbiew> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/78552
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-meta/+bug/78552
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 78552 in grub "/sbin/update-grub complains about being run instead of /usr/sbin/update-grub" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<cjwatson> I'll have a bunfight with Keybuk about 273189 at the sprint :)
<Keybuk> see, this is why warnings are pointless ;)
<Keybuk> you should just break things and move on
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> or, in the case of update-grub, leave it alone since it was just fine where it was ;-)
<Keybuk> well, yes, it does surprise me that it's not in /sbin
<cjwatson> in that case the warning is silly because it discourages being called based on $PATH
<cjwatson> I think it was because it used something in /usr
<Keybuk> oh, I know
<Keybuk> awk
<cjwatson> anyway the move discussion was incredibly tedious and I have no wish to repeat it, but anyone could hoover up the warning; I think there might have been a relevant unmerged change in Debian, even
<robbiew> it's just a warning, right?
<robbiew> I mean...does anything actually break?
<slangasek> the reason the warning there is because they wanted to eventually move the script out of /sbin
<robbiew> ah
<slangasek> so Debian's plan is to eventually make /sbin/update-grub go away, and then the warning becomes an error on any systems still using it
<cjwatson> right, in practice it false-positives on people with /sbin ahead of /usr/sbin in $PATH too though
<cjwatson> and also /etc/kernel-img.conf hasn't got reliably upgraded
<cjwatson> so there is *some* genuine cleanup to do
<slangasek> right; if /etc/kernel-img.conf were reliably upgrading there shouldn't have been a need for a warning in the first place :)
<cjwatson> but the cost of leaving it there is approximately nil so meh. I think it's just on the list because it's annoying
<TheMuso> Yay. Seems OpenOffice wants to crash whenever I load the room list for the sprint, and orca is running... :S
<robbiew> cjwatson: so is this something the kernel team should address?
<slangasek> nah, it's pretty foundation-y
<robbiew> ok
<Keybuk> is it?
<Keybuk> grub is pretty kernel-y :)
<slangasek> Keybuk: like udev is?
<Keybuk> they touched it last
<slangasek> I prefer my shell scripts to the kernel team's ;)
<slangasek> i.e., I'll take this bug if no one else is volunteering
<Keybuk> kernel people think userspace is an annoying botherance - we wouldn't trust them with things like udev ;)
<robbiew> slangasek: thanks
<Keybuk> slangasek: I thought colin and I agreed to look at it?
<robbiew> oh
<robbiew> :)
<slangasek> oh?  I thought that was another bug #
<robbiew> "cjwatson: I'll have a bunfight with Keybuk about 273189 at the sprint "
<robbiew> Keybuk ^
<cjwatson> that's a different unassigned bug on the list
<Keybuk> oh!
<cjwatson> that's the "non-ASCII characters busted at console login" bug
<Keybuk> I'm happy to do the update-grub fixing
<Keybuk> if slangasek doesn't want to ;)
 * robbiew lets slangasek and Keybuk fight over it ;)
<Keybuk> we could PAIR PROGRAM!
<slangasek> nah, I'll take it, currently none of the other bugs on that list are mine
<slangasek> Keybuk: EXTREME POSIX SH
<robbiew> slangasek: thanks
<robbiew> Keybuk: uh overkill :P
<evand> Be sure to insert some design patterns into that code.
<robbiew> next is the Sponsorship Queue...our good friend :)
<Keybuk> robbiew: sorry, flashback to my days on the launchpad team there
<robbiew> seems to be getting a little long
<cjwatson> I did a double shift last week due to slacking the week before
<slangasek> I notice there are a lot of items lingering on the sponsorship queue that are patches for our Special Packages that core-dev don't have commit rights to
<Keybuk> slangasek: oh?
<slangasek> Keybuk: mozilla, etc
<Keybuk> yeah, now that I'm always checking bzr first, packages which I can't commit to really irritate me
<slangasek> I think my complaint about this at UDS was lost in the noise of the plenary :)
<slangasek> anyway
<robbiew> slangasek: dholbach seems to have returned ;)
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> well that's all I really have for this meeting...Bad News is there
<robbiew> Good news...go Steve and everyone else who helped with 8.04.2
<robbiew> whoohoo! :P
<robbiew> AOB?
<cjwatson> Bad news: pitti and I are currently fighting with ext3 file recovery after a bit of an, er, incident on cocoplum
<dholbach> robbiew: how can I help?
<TheMuso> For those who are interested, dmraid will likely be moved into mdadm at some point, or at least the dmraid metadata support will.
<robbiew> cjwatson: oh?
<cjwatson> so the archive is currently at reduced functionality; we're well on our way to recovery though, and will deal with the backups that should have existed afterwards
<evand> Should we avoid uploads until further notice?
<cjwatson> feel free to upload
<evand> ok
<cjwatson> it just took out some of the auxiliary scripts
<robbiew> dholbach: slangasek had a remark about the sponsorship queue...
<dholbach> slangasek: OK? :)
<robbiew> dholbach: just mentioned your name...and to bring it up with you ;)
<slangasek> so as far as 8.04.2, we had a bit of bad news there as well and some packages from -proposed wound up going out the door - I'm in the process of trying to get all of those packages through the SRU process so we can re-snapshot
<slangasek> help with the SRU verification process would be appreciated
<cjwatson> did you ever find out what went wrong there?
<slangasek> not with any certainty
<slangasek> debian-cd was changed back to enable PROPOSED again; I don't remember having done that
<cjwatson> nor I
<slangasek> so either I did and forgot, or somebody else did and isn't fessing up, or something went wrong in a merge when the checkout was updated
<robbiew> are there logs for things like this
<robbiew> ?
<james_w> you're using an SVN checkout?
<evand> bzr blame?
<slangasek> james_w: ugh no, bzr
<slangasek> evand: it was a local change that was never committed
<evand> ah, ouch
<slangasek> (because we toggle PROPOSED on and off throughout the point release cycle, I didn't bother committing)
<cjwatson> in future we probably should, I guess
<cjwatson> would give us that tracking
<slangasek> so us CD folks will just have to take collective blame in this case
<slangasek> or I can take all the blame for not having committed it :)
 * robbiew avoids the "do we need an incident report" as...I think we don't ;)
<robbiew> slangasek: heh
<slangasek> technically, we didn't introduce any regressions in -updates :P
<robbiew> ok...so any "GOOD" news?
<robbiew> I got shirts :P
<james_w> we're off to Berlin :-)
<robbiew> hmm...cold
<dholbach> yeeeeehaw!
<robbiew> but I suppose  that's good
<dholbach> it's -2Â°C right now
 * mvo shivers already
<robbiew> keeps the beer from getting warm ;)
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:42.
<TheMuso> Ok that is cold.
<robbiew> don't need that in the logs :P
<TheMuso> thanks
<evand> thanks
<mvo> heh :)
<robbiew> TheMuso has to change seasons!
<mvo> thanks!
<Keybuk> yeah...
<Keybuk> why don't we hold the January sprint in Sydney next year? :)
<slangasek> thanks, all. :)
<robbiew> or the Bahamas
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> thanks all
<slangasek> Ubuntu Off Shore
<TheMuso> lol
<Keybuk> we've still never had a sprint on the Isle of Man
<evand> UDS Sealand?
<davmor2> evand: they'll have the bandwidth :)
<davmor2> Hello
 * ara_ waves
<heno> hello
<pedro_> hello everybody
<schwuk> hi
<bdmurray> hi
<heno> hey everyone
<heno> let's start
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<heno> \o/
<heno> agenda as usual: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> * Wiki migration progress
<heno> schwuk: any word on getting the current pages copied over?
<davmor2> I've done some work to the initial layout and would like feed back on any hardware that I might of forgotten.  Also if there are any other install methods I might of missed :)
<schwuk> heno: no - am chasing it up
<heno> davmor2: the actual HW test cases will be on sub-pages of that right?
<davmor2> Henrik Omma: Yes I just want to ensure that I haven't missed any HW for now
<heno> ok
<heno> we can always backfill
<heno> I'm wondering if install should be its own root, rather than in System?
<davmor2> Henrik Omma: Well the largest part of system is the installers so up to you
<davmor2> Henrik Omma: the only other things that I thought about putting in the are all the system effecting tools like add/remove synaptic etc
<heno> Let's do that then and leave System for system-level packages and system-integrity tests
<davmor2> okay I transfer them over tomorrow then
<ara_> I agree, System for installers is a bit confusing. +1
<heno> we should check for things like correct write permissions
<heno> davmor2: thanks
<heno> schwuk: look forward to seeing the new theme on there :)
<heno> any ETA?
<heno> schwuk: you can use the icon from here: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website
<schwuk> heno: imminently. Merged your changes and some borrowed from qa-website and the ubuntu wiki
<ara_> s/borrowed/stolen ;-)
<heno> ara_: should we plan a testing day where we go through and test all the new cases on the wiki?
<heno> that should help us discover gaps etc
<heno> testing the tests :)
<ara_> sure
<heno> when is a good time
<davmor2> how about mid november ;)
<ara_> when the cases are ready? :)
<heno> it will also give us a useful checkpoint for the migration
<heno> let's try the week after the sprint?
<ara_> davmor2: is that feasible?
<ara_> davmor2: what do you think?
<davmor2> when's the sprint
<ara_> next week
<davmor2> no
<ara_> davmor2: when do you think the cases would be ready?
<davmor2> the 5th is alpha 4 so testing will take up a lot of time.  Unless that date has changed
<heno> How can we help davmor2 with this? can we run a 2-hour migration-mini-sprint in Berlin?
<schwuk> don't see why not
<ara_> heno: sure
<heno> great, sounds like fun!
<ara_> heno, davmor2: if we do that, it would be better if davmor2 prepares a plan
<davmor2> I think we can get a reasonable ubuntu apps and install up by then but that might be about it.  However after next week I can knuckle down with the test again
<ara_> heno:  so we get the most of those two hours
<heno> ara_: agreed
<heno> davmor2: can we have a quick planning call tomorrow?
<davmor2> Henrik Omma: np's
<heno> ok, thanks for the updates
<heno> any other meeting business?
<ara_> the ubuntu-qa-tools package is in REVU now
<heno> cool!
<ara_> if you want your fancy script to be added to the package before is too late, send it to me
<heno> let's make sure we get someone to review it last week
<ara_> heno: dholbach and mok0 are already reviewing it
<heno> excellent
<heno> Next week most of us will be at a sprint in Berlin
<heno> (for those who did not know)
<schwuk> we are?
<schwuk> :)
<heno> should we schedule a meeting for next week?
<davmor2> I am too now :)
<heno> a public IRC and/or voice meeting that is
<davmor2> Voice might be fun as most of you will be there won't you?
<schwuk> heno: a public voice meeting might not be a bad idea. IRC seems a bit like overkill considering participation
<heno> (e do actually have some in-person meetings scheduled already)
<heno> phone/skype/ekiga?
<davmor2> skype works so that might be the best idea :)
<heno> ok - I'll make sure to bring a mic and speakers
<heno> let's wrap up the meeting
<heno> remember compiz bug day tomorrow!
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:28.
<ara_> thanks!
<davmor2> Thanks
<ara_> bye!
<\l> Technoviking, ping
<Riddell> good evening friends
<Riddell> how are we enjoying KDE 4.2?
<ScottK> o/
<DaSkreech> Humpalicious
<JontheEchidna> \o
 * ScottK is sticking with 4.1.4 until we get the SRU through.
<DaSkreech> Good 4.3 appetizer :)
<Lure> Riddell: big time!
<JontheEchidna> ^lol
 * Nightrose waves
<Tonio_> :)
<Nightrose> very much sir
<jjesse> hello
<Nightrose> ;-)
<yuriy> howdy
 * DaSkreech throws himself off a cliff and lands on Nightrose
<Riddell> is anyone here for membership?
<Nightrose> DaSkreech: outsch :P
 * jussi01 waves
<DaSkreech> I'm a cute puffy cloud the only ouches I have are from my electric personality
<stdin> perfect time for LP to have scheduled down time
<JontheEchidna> yeah
<alleeJaunty> Hi
<jussi01> hehe
<DaSkreech> Yay seele
<seele> so i put the phone by my ear.. and didn't set the alarm
<DaSkreech> :-)
<seele> but i have a very loud text message
<seele> here i am!
 * seele yawns
<Arby> \o/
 * a|wen waves (a bit late as well)
<ScottK> a|wen: I uploaded your kdepim fix for 4.1.4.  Waiting for it to be accepted ...
<Riddell> shall we start at the top of the agenda?
<Riddell> seele has an item about kpackagekit
<a|wen> thx ScottK
<ScottK> Is there a link for the agenda?
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<ScottK> Thanks
<seele> colomar and i reviewed kpackagekit
<seele> although (imo) it is still better than adept, it still has some problems
<seele> and there doesnt seem to be a maintainer for it who can fix them
<seele> also.. adept is now without a maintainer and i think there are still some open bugs about it?
<JontheEchidna> about 45, including wishlist items
<seele> ScottK had mentioned some concerns regarding signed packages and security
<jjesse> and no help manual for adept
<Tonio_> JontheEchidna: :)
<seele> and there is no interactive installation
<seele> so.. what should we do?
<DaSkreech> is adept shipping in Jackalope?
<JontheEchidna> DaSkreech: that's what we're deciding
<seele> ...that is what we are here to decide
<jjesse> that's the question
<DaSkreech> ah ok
<jjesse> lol
<jussi01> *g*
<Tonio_> my 2 cents : bet on the future, and the future is not adept
<ScottK> As far as my security concerns are, Adept and KPackageKit are equally broken.
<JontheEchidna> yeah, we can always fall back on adept if kpackagekit falls through
<Riddell> I'm all for kpackagekit kit, I think we'll find people to work on it same as we did for adept when we had to
<stdin> the general consensus from users is that they hate Adept :(
<Tonio_> kpackagekit isn't perfect at all, but as you said, still better than adept, and since some other distros are gonna use it (fedora...) it'll not be abandonned
<colomar> So adept doesn't care about package signatures either?
<ScottK> Comparing the two, I think the lack of dealing with connfile changes correctly is a significant issue
<JontheEchidna> colomar: correct
<seele> ok.. so if we go with kpackagekit there is another issue. it only lists packages there is no "application" categorization
<Riddell> seele: as I remember rgreening volunteered to work on that for jaunty
<seele> do we have someone competent in C++ who wants to take a stab at extending the existing search for a new page of applications?
<seele> Riddell: ah hah!
<Riddell> at UDS
<seele> he's not here though is he
<Tonio_> seele: the gnome one does, so there is probably a functionnality needed to be implemented
<Tonio_> seele: but packagekit does it
<Riddell> seele: not right now but we just need to poke him to do it I think
<seele> also, search needs greatly improved.. the filters do not work in the right order
<seele> finally, there are some other minor ui tweaks which are important, but not as important as the former
<colomar> I also read that the packagekit adept backend supports search in package descriptions, but the current kpackagekit doesn't
<Riddell> colomar: then that should be fairly easy to fix
<DaSkreech> Adept KDE4 was pretty broken
<JontheEchidna> adept doesn't use packagekit
<colomar> sorry
<jjesse> adept kde4 was hard to understand/use
<BluesKaj> kpackagekit , replacement for adept .. sounds interesting . The latest adept isn't much to my liking anyway .
<yuriy> DaSkreech: oh?
<Tonio_> colomar: once again, packagekit supports that, but not kpackagekit, so it' probably not that hard to fix
<colomar> I meant the apt backend
<colomar> Tonio_: That's good
<DaSkreech> I just want debtags
<ScottK> The one thing Adept does to right is deal with conffile changes.
<alleeJaunty> seele: are you're list of 'needs to be fixed' written down somewhere?
<Riddell> the MIR for packagekit is still outstanding, but asac and pitti said they'd look at them this week
<DaSkreech> Whatever gets me debtags I'm happy :)
<jjesse> allejaunty seele sent them to kubuntu-devel mailing list
 * JontheEchidna goes to eat :( /me is for kpackagekit though
<jjesse> sorry no tab completion on this web client
 * ScottK is against
<seele> alleeJaunty: yes, we have a review page on the kubuntu wiki. our working comments need to be cleaned up and then we will publish it
<Tonio_> colomar: the thing is that for jaunty, kpackagekit will not be the same functionnality level than the gnome UI, but I have absolutly no doubt that'll change in the future, since other distros might consider using it
<seele> jjesse: i think he was talking about the kpackagekit review
<seele> ScottK: you are against kpackagekit?
<DaSkreech> Tonio_: Will it be usable?
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: more than adept imho
<ScottK> I think the "we dont' care about conffile conflicts" decision is wrong.
<jjesse> aren't we debating on the lesser of two evils?
<DaSkreech> Other than the Adept not updating the database currently I can use it
<ScottK> I think it will lead to broken systems.
<BluesKaj> what about apt ...is it being looked at too ?
<seele> does anyone else have concerns about how kpackagekit handles conflicts?
<colomar> Tonio_: Yeah but the problem is that if we have a packe management tool in jaunty that supports neither software selection nor description search nor filters that are actually useful, we're in trouble
<Tonio_> ScottK people capable to understand the conffile questions don't use a graphical package manager
<DaSkreech> jjesse: indeed but also which is easier to corrupt to the side of goos
<Tonio_> ScottK they generally use apt/aptitude
<DaSkreech> good
<stdin> how hard would it to get kpackagekit to popup a dialog for conf changes?
<Riddell> I agree with Tonio_ for the most part on conffiles
<ScottK> Tonio_: That's a very Xandros attitude
<Tonio_> ScottK I'm deploying kde in corp environment, and believe me the very first thing we are asked is "make it shut up"
<Riddell> stdin: hard, it needs big changes in packagekit
<seele> Tonio_: the two things i listed really need to be fixed if we ship kpackagekit. Riddell reminds me that rgreening volunteered to shape kpackagekit up but he isnt here at the moment
<ScottK> Tonio_: For a controlled environment like that, it's fine.
<BluesKaj> so obviously you dev guys are leaving apt alone ... good :)
<a|wen> what does kpackagekit do with conf-file conflicts atm?
<seele> stdin: i think that is beyond the scope of what we can do in time. but rgreening would be the one to ask
<Tonio_> ScottK my mother wouldn't know what to respond is asked that dhclient.con has changed because a script touched it
<Riddell> a|wen: go with the current one I think
<DaSkreech> Riddell: Are other distros looking at getting that in?
<stdin> Tonio_: just because someone has a httpd for example, doesn't mean they never see the "there are x updates available" bubble and click it
<Tonio_> ScottK that's obvious
<Riddell> DaSkreech: fedora already has it
<seele> DaSkreech: fedora uses it
<ScottK> Tonio_: Such people don't modify conffiles either.
<DaSkreech> Riddell: message popups in kpackage kit?
<jjesse> it works decent in fedora
<Tonio_> ScottK scripts do (dhclient is script modified)
<jjesse> seems to be easier to understand then adept was ever
<Riddell> DaSkreech: oh no, they have kpackagekit generally
<Tonio_> stdin: the default action is to keep the old conf file
<ScottK> Riddell: Fedora also likes the xorg-server patch that screws up KDE
<Tonio_> stdin: 99% of the times that is the fine choice
<ScottK> Fedora also shipped KDE 4.0 as a usable system for end users.
 * yuriy should try out kpackagekit
<ScottK> Not much of a vote IMO
<Tonio_> stdin: and the config won't get lost
<DaSkreech> !info kpackagekit
<ubottu> Package kpackagekit does not exist in intrepid
<stdin> ok, but it's something to fix sooner rather than later though
<DaSkreech> stdin: Can it be fixed?
<stdin> obviously not in time for jaunty
<Tonio_> stdin: what to fix ? asking questions ?
<ScottK> So far we have no one doing any fixing.
<Riddell> yes, ubuntu will write its own packagekit backend is the plan
<Riddell> but not for jaunty
<ScottK> So any theory about what might change is pretty irrelevant.
<seele> ok.. so i think we need to regroup
<DaSkreech> ScottK: not if it can't be fixed at all
<stdin> Tonio_: generally graphical debconf prompts
<ScottK> DaSkreech: Sure.  That's true.
<seele> there isn't going to be time to do much with kpackagekit
<Tonio_> stdin: those are creating problems
<a|wen> if we at least can get an (optional) popup that the conf-file has  changed it's a usable start imo ... realistic?
<Tonio_> stdin: my ex already answered yes when adept proposed to close kdm
<DaSkreech> seele: Is there a list of your concerns somewhere?
<Tonio_> that close kdm.... and adept
<Tonio_> and the upgrade was broken
 * seele sighs
<seele> DaSkreech: yes, i already said so
<Tonio_> people don't understand those questions, most of the times
<DaSkreech> Sorry if i missed it
<Riddell> we should move on
<stdin> Tonio_: I was thinking about how mysql-server asks for a password, and things like that
<DaSkreech> and java licenses >_>
<Riddell> the plan is to go with kpackagekit and generally that's better than the alternative
<jjesse> if we are moving on did we decide anything?
<stdin> if people don't read dialogs before clicking "OK", then that's their fault ;)
<seele> we did not decide anything
<Tonio_> stdin: in that case you don't use a graphical component :)
<seele> so.. let's pause the conversation for a few minutes here
<seele> or else we'll never reach a conclusion
<DaSkreech> Win+C
<seele> three votes:
<seele> Vote 1 for package kit *as is*
<seele> Vote 2 for package kit with the two UI requirements colomar and i came up with
<seele> Vote 3 for package kit *only* if it gets the config file handling thing you all are discussing
<seele> please express you wish now.
<ScottK> 3
<Riddell> 1
<seele> 1, but 2 would be nice.
<Tonio_> 2, but even 1 is fine with me, thinking about the future
<stdin> 1
<colomar> 2
<stdin> better than unmaintained adept
<a|wen> 3- (as long as we get a popup)
<seele> is yuriy or apachelogger here?
<alleeJaunty> 1. 2 would be really nice to have
 * apachelogger didn't follow the discussion so has no clue what the config file handling would be
<apachelogger> 1 though :)
<Lure> 1 (2 nice to have)
<apachelogger> (2 of course preferred=
<ScottK> apachelogger: Same as adept does and ask you about overwriting conffile changes
<jjesse> 1 (2 nice to have) but doesn't know if vote matters
<seele> jjesse: it does unless there is a conflict and we'll go with whatever council says. but i'd like to make it a member vote
<alleeJaunty> apachelogger: you know what you're doing so you should use apt(itude)  as long as 3 isn't working
<seele> ok.  so there are lots of 1s and some 2s.
<jjesse> whatever we decide i'll work on documenting it
<seele> only two people are concerned about the configuration files
<BluesKaj> I am but not a member so...
<yuriy> I haven't tried kpackagekit at all, so I dunno
<seele> i will ask nixternal and yuriy what they think, unless they feel strongly about option 3, we will ship kpackage kit
<seele> council ok with that?
<seele> (yes)
<DaSkreech> absolute number of 1s and 2 are the same
<james_w> I'll also point out that it would make it impossible to install e.g. sun java where you *must* answer a debconf prompt for it to install.
<DaSkreech> number of ones preceeding 2s is greater
<Tonio_> seele: fine with me
<seele> DaSkreech: most of the 2s were nice to haves
<seele> yuriy and nixternal are both on council correct?
<DaSkreech> Yeah I just said that :)
<jjesse> ok so in the documentation we are now referencing kpackagekit in how to install software?
<Lure> seele: I am also concerned about conffiles, but adept is not that much better
<Riddell> seele: they are
<Lure> seele: I more vote for the future
<yuriy> I do think configuration files (more generally, questions during installation) are a concern though
<seele> so unless one of them are strongly opposed to it (which we will have to rediscuss) then this is what we're going for
<DaSkreech> With no canges?
<DaSkreech> changes
<Riddell> with changes if rgreening or someone will do them
<seele> DaSkreech: we will go with kpackagekit unless yuriy and nixternal are strongly opposed for reason 3
<DaSkreech> kk
<seele> colomar and I will work with rgreening in the meantime to see what he can accomplish in the next two weeks
<seele> so.. end of kpackagekit discussion
<seele> next.. quassel
<seele> any quassel devs here? i think Sput is probably sleeping by now
<Nightrose> EgS: poke
<EgS> ouch :)
<seele> ScottK: you are pretty up on their development. is there anything we should know in the consideration of quassel?
<stdin> jussi01's favourite subject
<Nightrose> ;-)
<jussi01> :D
<seele> btw. this discussion is about including quassel as the default irc client. our goal is to be kde4libs only and konversation has not been ported
<seele> ScottK: ping
<seele> ok so anyway
<jjesse> if we use quassel it will be yet another application by defualt with no documentation/help file
<Nightrose> EgS: how's the progress on seele's list?
 * jussi01 thinks that the quassel devs response times are excellent. 
<DaSkreech> Quassel has KDE4 integration now I hear?
<seele> i did a UI review of quassel and came up with a list of issues they had to address
<Nightrose> yes
<DaSkreech> Kool
<seele> the quassel code monkeys have fixed many minor issues and are currently working on bigger issues
<seele> this includes a toolbar for common irc actions and a better connection dialog for when the irc client opens
<EgS> seele: thought the biggest issue (the separation of core / client) is fixed ;)
<seele> i'm not sure what the status of those two things are
 * Nightrose is using quassel as her client for a few months now and is impressed with the latest changes
<seele> EgS: just about to say that :)
<EgS> toolbar is coming soonish, as we have now nice new icons :)
<seele> they have done a great job of separating the core and client in to a monolithic client
 * JontheEchidna was actually able to replace konversation with quassel :D
<seele> EgS: do you have any concerns about getting things done by featurefreeze?
<seele> ^ Feb 19th i think?
<BluesKaj> seele , I hope so cuz I found quassel kinda clunky , hope it gets fixed
 * DaSkreech would be concerned with connection experience
 * Lure switched to quassel and likes it 
 * alleeJaunty tried quassel 2 hours ago for the first time.   Still much too complicated, but I can see the potential
<DaSkreech> #kubuntu is the main help for people drastically confused as to what is going on
<seele> so for those of you concerned with quassel, it improves every day. so unless you have been keeping up with /trunk/ via ScottK's PPA, you are probably missing a lot
<EgS> seele: no I don't. I consider the toolbar a small issue too (at least judging by the amount of work needed)
<DaSkreech> And one of the things I liked about KDE was it was much easier to jump on IRC to get help
<seele> EgS: ok.  I gave Sput some suggestions on how to use the existing network Config as the connection screen too
 * alleeJaunty checks the ppa
<jjesse> what is scottk's ppa?  is it jaunty only?
<BluesKaj> DaSkreech , I have quassel working ok , but the setup is a bit confusing IMO
<seele> jjesse: no, it is available for intrepid too
 * jjesse makes note
 * ScottK is back
<jussi01> jjesse: ~kitterman
<DaSkreech> BluesKaj: and you are very familar with IRC concepts
<seele> so, basically there are two more things left on my requirements list that they are confident they will complete: the toolbar and the connection screen
<Nightrose> people don't forget that there are two ways to use quassel
<seele> the goal was to make quassel easy enough for users to be able to launch the program and connect to #kubuntu for help
<jussi01> BluesKaj: but are you using the new mono client or?
<Nightrose> the monolithic one got a lot easier lately
<seele> additional UI refinement can come later
<DaSkreech> Nightrose: Sweet
<seele> since we don't have any other options, i dont think we need to vote
<DaSkreech> Just a note as to what needs to be done
<seele> so unless something blows up in terms of development in the next two weeks, i recommend we ship quassel
<seele> anyone opposed?
<Nightrose> +1
<BluesKaj> DaSkreech , I hope that was said in jest , concepts no, but useability , yes ...I've tried many clients over the yrs
<jussi01> +1 from me :D
<ScottK> I'll just toss in that Quassel's upstream is very active and very responsive.
<Riddell> is it keeping the wee window at the top with data from all channels?
<ScottK> Also kees just did a security review and he found it well designed.
<ScottK> Riddell: It is
<Riddell> ScottK: oh he did that?
<seele> Riddell: that's an option that can be configured.  we can decide later if we want to enable that by default
<JontheEchidna> quassel++
<ScottK> Riddell: He did.
<Riddell> ScottK: can you make sure the MIR bug is updated
<ScottK> Riddell: I will.
<Riddell> thanks
<Tonio_> +1 for me
<stdin> we should disable the buffer at the top IMO, it will confuse people :p
<seele> ok. i hear no one opposed about the inclusion of quassel
<seele> EgS: congratulations ;)
<EgS> \o/
<JontheEchidna> \m/
<DaSkreech> BluesKaj: Same thing :)
<jussi01> \o/
<jjesse> +1 from me but only because konversation is no longer a choice
<seele> net topic is the removal of Arts. is andreas here?
<Riddell> a|wen
 * a|wen waves
<BluesKaj> DaSkreech , so what's your opinion of quassel ?
<seele> a|wen: want to tell us about arts
<ScottK> Since knights is broken due to lack of KDE3, just remove it.
<seele> BluesKaj: DaSkreech: please talk about that out of channel for the time being
<ScottK> I've been asking for removal of such packages as I find them.
<a|wen> the removal is tracked here: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/RemoveArts
<DaSkreech> Great Concept. Like the buffers It's a goof GUI analogy to Screen and irssi needs to have a two click setup if we are going to have it by default
<BluesKaj> seele, ok sry
<Tonio_> ScottK then we should consider all kde3 ioslaves to drop :)
<a|wen> most of them should be able to be compiled without arts ... but there is to problems
<ScottK> Tonio_: OK
<Tonio_> ScottK kio-beagle, kio-locate, datakiosk... those are broken
<a|wen> nateon and knights ... are we ok on dropping them?
<Riddell> Tonio_: give me a list and I'll remove them
<seele> what are nateon and knights?
<Tonio_> Riddell: yup, will do
<Riddell> knights is chess
<JontheEchidna> seele: nateon is a korean chat app
<BluesKaj> hmm , brb
 * ScottK points seele at the agenda
<jussi01> seele: agenda ;)
<jussi01> hehe
<seele> ? we're talking about arts right?
<JontheEchidna> yes, they depend on arts
<EgS> as a general note: if anybody feels he needs to discuss something about quassel or needs fast feedback: feel yourself invited to join #quassel
<seele> is there another kde chess game?
<seele> or do we care if we have a chess game?
<ScottK> seele: It doesn't matter, it's broken anyway
<apachelogger> seele: agenda :P
<Riddell> a|wen: I take it nateon can't be compiled without arts?
<a|wen> that is our problem (maybe)
<ScottK> Can arts be patched out of nateon?
<a|wen> Riddell: exactly
<apachelogger> well
<apachelogger> we could hack it up
<apachelogger> but
<apachelogger> http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=nateon
<apachelogger> doesn't seem to be very popular
<JontheEchidna> we must not be big with the south koreans
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: we have crap localization, what do you expect :P
<ScottK> That's in Debian, not Kubuntu
<JontheEchidna> :P
<apachelogger> ScottK: well, it gives an idea
<DaSkreech> seele: I think there are enough Chess games that people won't get huffy about it
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: +1
<JontheEchidna> dood, people get huffy is kpdf and kghostview aren't in intrepid
<JontheEchidna> even though they have okular
<a|wen> i don't think hacking op nateon is worth it (and documentation is in korean!!)
<DaSkreech> ubottu knows at least 5 or 6
<ubottu> Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
<Nightrose> does anyone use a chess program here?
<DaSkreech> a|wen: can we notify upstream at least?
<Nightrose> would be nice to get an opinion from someone who actually play chess
<Nightrose> *plays
<apachelogger> well
<apachelogger> knights is dead
<a|wen> DaSkreech: i can do that
<apachelogger> like _completely_
<Nightrose> hehe ok
<apachelogger> last release was some pre-release in 2005
<Nightrose> ooooooook...
<apachelogger> keeping it around would only delay the unavoidable
<nixternal> yo yo
<a|wen> and we are shipping staple from 2003 patched up
<Nightrose> yo yo Nicke_
<alleeJaunty> The jaunty announcement should mention the list of removed kde3 only apps IMHO
<ScottK> It won't get any more broken if we remove it
<Nightrose> nixternal even
<nixternal> ya, at work...only check IRC like once in a blue moon
<ScottK> Ubuntu popcon data for nateon is nateon                           274    18   241    14     1
 * nixternal goes back away from IRC
<apachelogger> for nateon I propose: talk to upstream => if no KDE 4 in sight, but planed => _try_ patching; if no KDE 4 version planed => drop it
<Tonio_> http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/Tagua?content=65571
<Tonio_> we can package this :)
<apachelogger> if patching fails arts just needs to stick around a bit longer
<a|wen> Tonio_: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=tagua
<apachelogger> Tonio_: as agenda says it is already in debian/experimental ;-)
<DaSkreech> nixternal: needed a vote from you is all
<Tonio_> apachelogger: oups...
<a|wen> and it actually works pretty well
<DaSkreech> Tagua is a bit dead as I recall But can be massaged
<ScottK> There is a pidgin-nateon that's substanitally more popular than nateon
<DaSkreech> Prod Kopete :)
<Riddell> indeed, those koreans should really just write a plugin for kopete
<DaSkreech> I'm assuming it doesn't use a libnateon ?
<apachelogger> no
<DaSkreech> Yeah make some contact with the Korean KDErs
<Riddell> I propose we drop it and just notify upstream and kde-kr
<DaSkreech> +1
<Tonio_> +1
<a|wen> +1
<ScottK> +1
<apachelogger> +1
<JontheEchidna> +1
<jjesse> +1
<Nightrose> +1
<Arby> +1
<jussi01> +1
<JontheEchidna> c-c-c-c-combo breaker!
<a|wen> so nateon dies ... and knights as well
<Riddell> I feel that suppestion speaks to our condition
<ScottK> Can I piggy back on this we drop kita2 also?  It's a Japanese IM app with even lower popcon than nateon.
<Riddell> a|wen: poke me after the meeting I'll do the removal
<a|wen> Riddell: i'll do that
<ScottK> It's the last remaining rdepend for the KDE bindings
<Riddell> ScottK: what does it use?
<ScottK> I forget which one
<nixternal> DaSkreech: a vote on what?
<DaSkreech> and arts
<ScottK> One of the ruby ones I thikn
<Riddell> ScottK: ah yes, Japan, it would :)
<Riddell> ScottK: I agree, I don't think we should support ruby-kde3 any more
<DaSkreech> nixternal: kpackagekit as is or kpackagekit with UI changes or kpacakgekit with conffile fixes
<ScottK> libkorundum0-ruby1.8
<apachelogger> <3 japan
<apachelogger> ScottK: yes, ruby it is
<Riddell> let's move on
<Riddell> Arby has a point on s-c-p-k
<nixternal> DaSkreech: #2 and #3 :)
<Arby> \o
<Arby> basically this is about getting it ready for jaunty
<nixternal> if #3 is complete that is fine, but don't ship a piece of junk
<Arby> what we absolutely need to have
 * nixternal goes back to work, call me if you need me from this point on :) 
<DaSkreech> nixternal: with a proposal for fixage of course. You can do that once off work :)
<Arby> what is nice to have
<seele> nixternal: when do you get off work? you've just created a council meeting :P
<Arby> this is a list of features listed in the readme as still missing and where I've got to with them
<Arby> http://paste.ubuntu.com/111016/
<nixternal> I should be getting off work soon, but I am whicked busy, probably not for a few hours
<Arby> currently I have 2 branches on the go
<Tonio_> Lure: your point :)
<Arby> stand alone lp:~rbirnie/system-config-printer/new_ui
<seele> ok, ping us when you get in
<Arby> systemsettings module lp:~kubuntu-members/system-config-printer/kcm-scpk
<JontheEchidna> oh, that looks familiar
<Arby> so the first question is
<Arby> do we want to go with the standalone version again or push to get it into systemsettings?
<Lure> digikam/kipi-plugins are in universe - any reason to move them to main (as they were pre-intrepid)
<Arby> the standalone version works reasonably well
<seele> Arby: i would like to see it in systemsettings but will it be much work?
<JontheEchidna> Arby: pretty much the only thing keeping it from SS is that crash, right?
<Tonio_> Lure: sorry one still pending point :)
<JontheEchidna> as far as we know
<seele> ah
<Riddell> I hope to look at system settings intgration tomorrow
<Tonio_> Arby: I'm all for systemsettings on my side
<Lure> I think we do not need digikam on live-cd, as we have gwenview for casual user now
<Arby> JontheEchidna: that crash and the class inheritance
<Arby> Riddell: that would be great
<Lure> but kipi may be useful (integration with flickr, picasaweb, facebook, smugmug, gallery...)
<Arby> if we're going to get into systemsettings I'll need help
<Tonio_> Lure: !! still discussing the printer stuff !! :)
<Arby> I'm in over my head there :)
<Lure> Tonio_: I see... ;-)
<JontheEchidna> Riddell: we have both spckde and jockey somewhat there, but they both crash when they try to do dbus-y things
<Arby> it breaks in ways I don't begin to understan
<JontheEchidna> that too
<Riddell> hmm, right, dbus
<seele> what is spckde?
<Riddell> s-c-p-k
<Arby> system-config-printer-kde
<Arby> it really needs a shorter name
<seele> ah letters were in the wrong order there :)
<JontheEchidna> kprinter2000
<DaSkreech> scpk ?
<Tonio_> Arby: kdeprint ?
<DaSkreech> that's so 9 years ago
 * Tonio_ hides
<JontheEchidna> kprinter3000
<JontheEchidna> :D
<Arby> he
<apachelogger> how
<Tonio_> but why not in fact... kdeprint old fashion is dead, so.......
<apachelogger> about
<apachelogger> print
<apachelogger> :P
<seele> do we know why dbus is causing it to crash?
<seele> and are waiting for a patch?
<seele> or does someone have to look in to it?
<Riddell> seele: no but I'll look at it tomorrow
<seele> ok
<Arby> so we're agreed we want it in system settings, good
<seele> system settings contains everything so i'd like it in there
<JontheEchidna> if possible
<Arby> next which features do we absolutely need and which are nice to have?
<Arby> I pasted a list up there ^^
<seele> in the future we'll eventually need to address some of the utlities, but that wont be until jaunty+1/4.4
<apachelogger> Arby: smb integration is pretty important for business use cases I suppose
<DaSkreech> Systemsettings needs love
<Arby> apachelogger: that would be my biggest concern
<Arby> but again help needed
<Riddell> Arby: driver download isn't a priority, I don't think there's any drivers to download
<seele> SMB is lowest priority imo
<Arby> if anybody who has a working samba printer could test it that would be good
<a|wen> i'd say a printer options page
<seele> access control page.. i think that could be low priority too, but other people might not agree
<a|wen> is the most important
<seele> yes, printer options page seems like the most reasonable and most useful
<Tonio_> Arby: I can test at work, no problem
<apachelogger> Arby: me too
<Arby> seele: well access control is mostly done, needs testing
<apachelogger> loads of smb printers there :D
<seele> Arby: oh in that case.. :)
<Arby> Tonio_: apachelogger that would be great
<Riddell> I'll have a go at starting the options page tomorrow then
<Tonio_> Arby: I'll make a test tomorrow morning and will let you know :)
<Arby> apachelogger: Tonio_ I'll have to commit what I've got locally first to make it worthwhile
<Arby> I'll do it after the meeting
<Tonio_> Arby: please ping when ready so that we can test then :)
<Arby> so, in summary
<Arby> systemsettings integration and a job options page required for jaunty
<JontheEchidna> if it was working, jockey would have the full functionality of the standalone kde and gtk clients
<Arby> access control and samba browsing, nice to have
<Arby> agreed?
<JontheEchidna> +1
<apachelogger> aye
<Tonio_> yup
<a|wen> +1
<Arby> excellent
<Arby> as a general point, any and all testing would be appreciated :)
<yuriy> smb browsing would be nice
<Arby> I'll try to put a package together soon and stick it in a ppa
 * seele tries to stay away for technical talk..
<a|wen> +1 to that as well :)
<Arby> yuriy: it will arrive at somepoint :)
<seele> printing yes +1 yay
<Tonio_> Arby: is lan browsing on the long term plans ?
<Arby> seele: if you wouldn't mind taking another look at the ui would be nice
<Tonio_> Arby: that's something I really loved with kdeprint....
 * apachelogger grabs the whip
<Tonio_> s/browsing/scanning
<apachelogger> lets move on :P
<Arby> Tonio_: haven't thought about it yet :)
<seele> Arby: sure.. send me screenshots.. i dont have jaunty set up anywhere atm
<Riddell> Lure's item next
<Lure> digikam/kipi-plugins are in universe - any reason to move them to main (as they were pre-intrepid)?
<Arby> seele:  will do
<Lure> I think we do not need digikam on live-cd, as we have gwenview for casual user now
<Lure> but kipi may be useful (integration with flickr, picasaweb, facebook, smugmug, gallery...)
<Tonio_> Arby: pretty usefull in corp environment :) but certainly not a priority, so for the long term maybe ;)
<Riddell> Lure: just needs MIRs for those new dependencies
<DaSkreech> Is kipi up to task for KDE4?
<Lure> Riddell: new deps need to get in archive first ;-)
<Tonio_> +1000 for kipi-plugins
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: yup
<apachelogger> kipi main
<apachelogger> kipi on cd (improves gwenview as well)
<alleeJaunty> Tonio_: browsing/scanning should be done via avahi.
<apachelogger> digikam main
<Riddell> Lure: are you able to package them or are you looking for volunteers to do it?
<DaSkreech> apachelogger: I thought we were trying to save space :-P
<apachelogger> digikam on CD (if possible spacewise)
 * JontheEchidna shovels out driveway
<Lure> lensfun is in Debian NEW, so I can just do 0ubuntu1 upload
<apachelogger> DaSkreech: kipi is not that big is it?
<Tonio_> alleeJaunty: requires zeroconf, not the same than scanning for an entire subnet on a specific port, imho
<Lure> opencv needs packaging and help would be great (I am a bit rusty with new packages ;-))
<apachelogger> Tonio_: what size does the almighty kipi-plugins package have?
<Riddell> Lure: go for it
<Tonio_> apachelogger: 4MB
<apachelogger> that should fit on the CD I suppose ;-)
<Tonio_> apachelogger: we also have to consider new libs coming with it :)
<DaSkreech> 4 megs is Huuuuuuuge :)
<apachelogger> DaSkreech: look at ooo :P
<a|wen> if we get all the kde3 stuff to go away
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: nothing compared to crap OOo... :)
<Lure> Riddell: so no MIR needed for digikam/kipi-plugins, just for new depends?
<DaSkreech> Yeah I know but Koffice isn't quite Killer yet
<Riddell> Lure: correct
<Lure> Riddell: then we can move them now (can you do it)? then we just take care for new deps later (when accepted in archive)
<DaSkreech> we could ship Abiword >_<
<Lure> we can start seeding kipi-plugins
<Riddell> Lure: can do
<seele> DaSkreech: ...
<Tonio_> talking about digikam, it i to me a basic feature to be able to download cameras photos by default....
<Tonio_> even windows xp does it...
<DaSkreech> I keeed I keeeed
<DaSkreech> Tonio_: digikampart?
<Tonio_> as long as technically possible, I think we shoul ship with digikam
<Lure> Tonio_: gwenview does not have this?
<DaSkreech> Does camera:/ still work ?
<Tonio_> Lure: not that I know of......
 * Lure cannot recall
<Tonio_> well, mass storage works, but not pptp
<Tonio_> and lots of cameras are set to pptp only or by default
<DaSkreech> Is that an upstream issue?
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: no simply gwenview isn't designed for that yet
<a|wen> camera:// still exists
<apachelogger> well ... photography seems to be a popular hobby these days ... so we should stuff digikam on the CD if we have enough space left
<Nightrose> mine and seele's cameras don't work in intrepid - major pita :/
<Tonio_> do people know about camera:// ?
<apachelogger> +1 on improved digikam handling
<DaSkreech> I don't think that gwenview is supposed to do that at all
<apachelogger> *digicam even :P
<a|wen> Tonio_: possibly not though
<apachelogger> DaSkreech: KDE should
<Tonio_> Lure: is the viewer in the same package ? if so we should split not to dupe gwenview
<yuriy> digikam on the cd if possible would be great
<Tonio_> a|wen: :)
<yuriy> it's one of the killer apps imo
<Lure> Tonio_: showfoto is in separate package, but it is very small
<Tonio_> Lure: ok... what are the doc size ?
<Lure> Tonio_: no kde4 doc yet, but in the works
<Tonio_> Lure: okay
<Lure> Tonio_: and it is separate package, afair
<Tonio_> Lure: and what is the packge size ?
<Lure> Tonio_: 10 MB
<Lure> + depends
<Tonio_> Riddell: one we get k3b in we can get rid of kdelibs4 right ?
<Riddell> openoffice needs to drop it to
<Riddell> no KDE file open dialogue
<alleeJaunty> Tonio_: showfoto is the worst name ever.  Editfoto would be much better for what the app is designed for
<Tonio_> Riddell: yeah :( can't wait to ship with koffice2..... maybe one day...
<Tonio_> alleeJaunty: true that :)
<ScottK> Can that be like the java stuff where all the depends aren't shipped by default but if install it it works
<DaSkreech> I almost recall reading an artcle that said that you could get OO.o to use the KDE file dialog
<Lure> Riddell: just drop it - kde3 is new gnome - we do not want it anymore ;-)
<ScottK> That being the ooo stuff
<Riddell> ScottK: I don't know
<apachelogger> Lure: lol
<Riddell> but it can keep the crystal icons and Qt widgets ,just no file open dialogue
<Tonio_> Riddell: kdelibs4c2a is 10MB = digikam
<yuriy> I don't know if the kde integration is useful in OOo if it's kde3
<Riddell> no KDE file open dialgoue
<Tonio_> Riddell: considering digikam in that case looks possible right ?
<Riddell> yes, let's ask calc if he can look into dropping kdelibs from openoffice
<yuriy> it's extra confusing even, to have the completely separate set of bookmarks there
<DaSkreech> yuriy: good point
<Tonio_> Riddell: OOo depends on kde3... hum... I forgot that part.... sorry
<Tonio_> Riddell: I was all at konversation/k3b replacement
<Riddell> ACTION: move digikam and kipi to main, add to CDs, ask calc to drop kdelibs from openoffice
<DaSkreech> What's a k3b replacement?
<Riddell> trueg says he's going to get k3b back into shape
<Lure> DaSkreech: wodim
 * Lure hides
<DaSkreech>  Sebastian is back in KDE swing would it be possibly to have a discussion to see a timeline for K3b 4 KDE4 ?
<Tonio_> Riddell: is OOo depending on kde3 or 4 libs right now ?
<Lure> Tonio_: kde3
<Tonio_> Lure: okay
<DaSkreech> There is a K3B KDE4 beta right ?
<Riddell> yes
 * ScottK needs to run.
<Riddell> let's move on
<Lure> DaSkreech: yes: does not work for me, but Tonio_ has some success
<DaSkreech> ok I'm fine with that
<ScottK> No opinion on KGet or Kopete tabs, but I do want stickers.
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: packaging in the work on my side, tests are not that good on the dvd side :)
<Riddell> Tonio_ wants to discuss kget
<Tonio_> yep
<Tonio_> I personnaly consider ktorrent UI a nightmare
<Tonio_> and I pretty love kget as a download manager for konqueror
<Tonio_> is integrates like a charm
 * Nightrose likes ktorrent tbh
<DaSkreech> I haven't used kget for torrents I'll assume the UI isn't a dream though
<Riddell> I like KDE's normal downloads
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: bah UI is a standard download manager UI :)
<Tonio_> simple and efficient
<Tonio_> Riddell: yeah, but no pause, queue, restart and so on
<DaSkreech> How does it work feature wise?
<Tonio_> Riddell: a download manager has a lot of advantages
<Riddell> ug, it still has that weird drop target thing in the middle of the screen
<Tonio_> Riddell: is disabled by default
<Riddell> just popped up here
<Tonio_> Riddell: just an option like with all download managers
<ScottK> OK.  I do have an opinion about KGet.  I don't like that drop target thing either.
<ScottK> See you all.
<Tonio_> Riddell: can make is off by default easilly
<Riddell> hmm, yet another systray icon
<Tonio_> Riddell: kget is very similar to any osx or windows standard download manager, and people are used to those softwares
<DaSkreech> Tonio_: plasmoid? :)
<Nightrose> Tonio_: so what do you actually propose?
<yuriy> I haven't used kget, but I never saw the point of it
<Tonio_> Nightrose: to test kget and when people have an opinion rediscuss this :)
<apachelogger> Tonio_: those are not individual apps
 * apachelogger doesn't like the concept of external download manager
<Nightrose> this being what?
<apachelogger> it's confusing
<Riddell> can't work out how to get it to start a torrent
<Tonio_> apachelogger: well it's konqueror integration is really good
<Nightrose> if kget by default?
<apachelogger> Riddell: just open one
<Nightrose> replacing ktorrent?
<apachelogger> Tonio_: there is no integratoin
<Riddell> apachelogger: how?
<apachelogger> Riddell: file - open I suppose?
<apachelogger> Tonio_: konqui just throws the files at kget
<Tonio_> apachelogger: hu ??
<Riddell> apachelogger: there is no such option
<apachelogger> kget does with them whatever it wants
<apachelogger> so it is an external download manager and appears as independent app
<Tonio_> apachelogger: that's the purpose of a download manager
<apachelogger> which in my opinion got limited use case and target audience
<Tonio_> apachelogger: my browser can crash and my downloads are going fine...
<Nightrose> +1
<apachelogger> Riddell: no clue then
<yuriy> -1 if it would take up extra CD space
<yuriy> otherwise I'd have to try it
<DaSkreech> yuriy: Well the point is to remove ktorrent
<apachelogger> Tonio_: then the kio stuff should be fixed that the slaves are not bound to the konqueror instance but something more generic kded for example
<JontheEchidna> kded dies whenever you update packages
<apachelogger> kdeinit then
<seele> so are there two things we're discussing? including kget and not including ktorrent?
<a|wen> yuriy: seems you are gaining 6 mb by the change
<apachelogger> if that goes down you are boned anyway :P
<Riddell> doesn't sounds like anyone is convinced at kget
<Tonio_> Riddell: just choose save as and kget gets the file
<Riddell> I don't see the advantage for file downloads and it's not intuitive to me for torrent downloads
<apachelogger> Riddell, Tonio_: I think we should discuss this at next meeting .. giving people time to take a look at kget
<DaSkreech> Tonio_: I'll flip it what are the arguments for not including ktorrent ?
<Tonio_> Riddell: I agree it's a different concept.... torrents are seen are standard downloads (opera does that too)
<seele> i'm dubious that the file manager can provide the necessary information and functionality torrent users are used to
<Nightrose> +1 seele
<yuriy> Tonio_: which actually sounds like a good idea to me for a default
<seele> it's not as simple as enabling a torrent and just letting it run
<a|wen> but i'd personally much rather have ktorrent ... seems more intuitive to me
<seele> you care about having information about the seeds, which pieces youve downloaded, throttling, etc.
<JontheEchidna> ktorrent++
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: well I'd like a download manger for konqueror, and since it also does torrents....
<seele> Tonio_: i think we should evaluate kget as a download manager only
<seele> not as a replacement for ktorrent
<seele> if it happens to get included and it does torrents too.. good for it
<Tonio_> seele: I don't care which pieces are downloaded as long as it's not finished... :)
<a|wen> +1 seele
<Nightrose> Tonio_: for videos it can matter
<Nightrose> you might be able to watch the beginning
<Tonio_> seele: and I'm not that a fan of the search part of ktorrent, really confusing
<Tonio_> Nightrose: that's a good point, indeed
<yuriy> ok tried out kget and i'm confused
<seele> how big is kget?
<Tonio_> well, I propose people to try it as a download manager, and rediscus this next time
<yuriy> where is my download?
<JontheEchidna> +1 on rediscuss
<a|wen> seele: ~ 3,5M
<Tonio_> about benefits of download malager and so on
<Tonio_> yuriy: kget in the systray
<DaSkreech> Tonio_: how do I do plugins for Kget ?
<yuriy> also i prefer the plasma notification things over some extra window
<Riddell> yuriy++
<rgreening> hey. sry about being late. lappy issues
<apachelogger> +1
<yuriy> the download manager that always pops up is one of the things I don't like about firefox
<apachelogger> rgreening: hola
<Tonio_> yuriy: I agree on that point, but I think to remember that's on kget schedule
<jjesse> +1 to yuriy
<Nightrose> yuriy: you can use allinonesidebar for that
<Nightrose> works good for me
<Riddell> I'll try kget for now but I'm sceptical
<jjesse> i had issues trying to download torretns with kget, and found ktorrent was just much easier
<Riddell> we should move on
 * apachelogger thinks the only sane approach to downloads is what google chrome does :P
<Tonio_> I tend to agree my mother wouldn't need this kind of tool on the other hand
<Riddell> Tonio_: tabs in kopete?
<Tonio_> Riddell: lots of people don't have super bandwidth
<Tonio_> Riddell: consider they can download part of an iso every day for example, that can be usefull
 * DaSkreech likes tabs. I don't know Ubuntu guidelines or KDE HIB well enough.
<Tonio_> let's move on
<Tonio_> it was discussed and decided in the past to activate tabs in kopete by default
<jjesse> what's next on the agenda?
<Tonio_> so I did again with kde4
<Riddell> tabs in kopete
<Tonio_> but I received criticisms :)
<DaSkreech> jjesse: tabs in Kopete
 * Nightrose uses tabs in kopeet
<jjesse> ah wasn't paying attention
<jjesse> sry
<seele> as opposed to opening new chats in separate windows?
<DaSkreech> Any examples of critique ?
<a|wen> seele: yes
<yuriy> my 2c - I don't use tabs in pidgin
<Nightrose> seele: jep
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: that sucks !!
<Tonio_> kind of things like that :)
<DaSkreech> Tonio_: That's what I thought
<Tonio_> strange since nobody complained with kde3.... but that's it :)
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: yep ;)
<seele> what is the kopete default?
<DaSkreech> Tonio_: I propose that it's turned off for the betas and see what the response it
<seele> upstream default
<DaSkreech> is
<Tonio_> seele: no tabs
<a|wen> seele: 1 chat 1 window
<apachelogger> seele: new window per chat
<DaSkreech> No tabs
<seele> hmm
<Tonio_> seele: but that's very msn....
<Riddell> I can't get it to do tabs
<DaSkreech> I currently have it grouped by protocol which Seems to give me management as well as sanity
<a|wen> +1 for tabs here
<Tonio_> seele: most IM do have tabs by default
<JontheEchidna> +1 for keeping tabs
<a|wen> Riddell: it is under behaviour
<DaSkreech> How about we turn it off for the betas and see the response
<a|wen> (the option placement is pretty counter-intuitive imo)
<apachelogger> having used the tab approach I have the feeling it gets in my way most of the time, though I am not exactly much of a im user anyway :)
<rgreening> KDE has tabs by dfalt in most apps, +1 for being consistant
<DaSkreech>  I'm thinking that the people who don't like tabs are being vocal but the majority do like it
<seele> DaSkreech: that doesnt guarantee we will see a response
<apachelogger> DaSkreech: we had it turned off for intrepid
<Tonio_> a|wen: yep, very bad to set :)
<seele> DaSkreech: and if they are upgrades, then the previous settings will hold
<DaSkreech> seele: I know but I'm betting we will
<apachelogger> DaSkreech: and did recive _no_ whatsoever response
<apachelogger> like no one noticed the tabs were gone :P
<DaSkreech> apachelogger: So people didn't say anything about not having tabs but were quite vocal about having them?
<Tonio_> seele: hum no since that's in KDS, so changing must change for most people, but as you said, they may just not complain
<apachelogger> DaSkreech: yes
<DaSkreech> That's interesting
<DaSkreech> I would guess no tabs then
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: a couple did, including you :) not the all earth came to me complaining :)
<apachelogger> well, the amount of feedback is not really something to bind a decision on IMHO
<DaSkreech> apachelogger: and this was without window grouping ?
 * yuriy thinks a forum poll would be nice
<Tonio_> my point is that most kde apps have tabs
<JontheEchidna> consistency ftw
<seele> yes they do
<Tonio_> most IM have tabs by default (pidgin, adium on osx, trillian on windows, YIM....)
<DaSkreech> Tonio_: I agree that tabs are better for many reasons
<JontheEchidna> gnome3 is all about tabs anyway :P
<Tonio_> no tabs is the very msn way to work, only
<DaSkreech> but if people freak outat them ...:-/
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: our users are used to them for 3 years now :)
<Nightrose> vote?
<DaSkreech> JontheEchidna: by the end of Gran Canria We will have clocks with tabs on them
<Tonio_> and msn users..... still use msn on windows :)
<Riddell> ooh I think I got it working
<DaSkreech> Ha ha :)
<Nightrose> hehe
<Tonio_> Riddell: what ? msn ? :)
<Riddell> tabs
<DaSkreech> tabs
<Nightrose> so who is for keeping tabs?
<Tonio_> Riddell: AH !
<Lure> +1 for tabs
 * Nightrose is
<JontheEchidna> +1 for tabs
<a|wen> +1 for tabs
<Tonio_> +1 for tabs
<seele> +1 tabs
<DaSkreech> I'm for it in principle
<Riddell> it still has two windows though which seems to lose the point
<alleeJaunty> +1 for tabs
<DaSkreech> Riddell: Buddy list doesn't cont :-P
<DaSkreech> count
<Tonio_> Riddell: the contact one and the chat one, as it always used to :)
<seele> Riddell: kopete is a service app, the main window disappears
<apachelogger> Riddell: better than 5 I supppose ;-)
<Lure> Riddell: ++ on that - would also like to have main window as tab
<Riddell> ok we seem to be in favour of tabs
<Riddell> what's next
<Riddell> rickspencer3 wanted to say hi
<JontheEchidna> \o
<apachelogger> o/
<Lure> rickspencer3: hi!
<Nightrose> hi rickspencer3
<seele> that's a strange way of saying hello
<rickspencer3> hi!
<DaSkreech> Lure: Eh? buddy lista as a tab?
<a|wen> hi rickspencer3
 * seele waves
<seele> greeting by proxy
<Riddell> rickspencer3 is the new manager of Canonical's desktop team
<DaSkreech> Hoorah!
<Nightrose> aha!
<Lure> DaSkreech: I would love it, but it is not available
<jjesse> yay
<rickspencer3> seele: I was waiting my turn
<rickspencer3> :)
<DaSkreech> Lure: this is KDE there must be a checkbox somewhere :)
<seele> rickspencer3: we're not as organized in our meetings as yours
<rickspencer3> I'll be pushier next time ;)
<Nightrose> tell us a little about yourself rickspencer3?
<rickspencer3> ooh
<DaSkreech> Lure: actaully Kopete buddy list is KDE3 might be an issue
<rickspencer3> well, this is like my 8th week at Canonical
 * apachelogger kicks DaSkreech
<rickspencer3> So I'm still learning the ropes here
<jjesse> there are no ropes here
<rickspencer3> my background in software started with usability, before I got into program management and then engineering management
 * DaSkreech puts a sticker on the footprint
<Nightrose> welcome then :)
<rickspencer3> I'm just psyched about the job, and want to learn as much as I can about Kubuntu now
<Nightrose> hehe good start
<jjesse> all you need to know is it is the best
<rickspencer3> It's really a remarkable community and an awesome product
 * DaSkreech prods nixternal to provide docs
<Riddell> so if people have question or comments about stuff canonical is doing, rick is a good chap to go to
<Tonio_> rickspencer3: :)
 * DaSkreech does
<DaSkreech> but post stickers
<rickspencer3> Hi Tonio_, we met at UDS, no?
<Tonio_> rickspencer3: absolutly :)
<rickspencer3> same with seele, I believe
 * jjesse thinks it is a  good idea DaSkreech didn't rmeember he does docs for kubuntu as well
<seele> rickspencer3: i was definitely there
<seele> hehe
<jjesse> i was there as well
<rickspencer3> very nice
<Tonio_> rickspencer3: nice to see your real interest in kde and kubuntu :)
 * Nightrose wasn't there :(
 * JontheEchidna wasn't at UDS sadly :(
<DaSkreech> jjesse: I did but I blame nixternal
 * nhandler wasn't there
<Riddell> as was nixternal and rgreening
<Riddell> Nightrose, JontheEchidna: next time!
<Nightrose> yay
<rickspencer3> that was my first week at Canonical, so I kind of blocked out most of it :)
<Nightrose> ;-)
<jjesse> that's another rickspencer3 needs to learn, "when in doubt blame nixternal "
<apachelogger> hehe
<rickspencer3> but I mostly blame nixternal for that
<jjesse> nice
<apachelogger> \o/
<Nightrose> you leran quickly rickspencer3 ;-)
<Nightrose> *learn
<JontheEchidna> !nixternal
<ubottu> Oh no!  The pointy-clicky Windows7 lover has arrived!  He's rumoured to be giving out free money, and help on the MIRC client too! <nixternal> I LOVE MIRC!!!
<jjesse> awesome, changed it to windows7
<Riddell> last agenda item is about stickers
 * jjesse cackles
<Nightrose> what?
<Nightrose> mirc?
<Nightrose> sinde when does he do mirc?
<Nightrose> *since
<seele> thanks rickspencer3
<yuriy> for those interested in tabs stats: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1053450
 * nhandler wants a sticker
<yuriy> so, stickers?
<Tonio_> JontheEchidna: I'm probably a bigger windows lover than nixternal will ever be ;)
<yuriy> what sort of stickers are we talking about?
<DaSkreech> I have no clue what this is about but +4.2 stickers
 * Lure wants stickers for new thinkpad I get in 2 weeks
 * apachelogger hands rickspencer3 a basket filled with welcome cookies
<Tonio_> JontheEchidna: and that's not a joke :)
<Riddell> the marketing chap at Canonical says he can send out stickers to active Kubuntu people as a wee thank you
<Riddell> the stickers are on shop.canonical.com
<rgreening> kubu stickers == awesum
<DaSkreech> Tonio_: You are? I blame nixternal for that
<Riddell> so e-mail me your postal address with STICKER in the header and I'll pass that on
 * rickspencer3 slides a cookie out, slides basket under desk without sharing
<seele> rickspencer3 is now uninvited!
<Tonio_> DaSkreech: haha, I used to be a microsoft MCSE and active directory sysadmin :) I still use windows xp/vista and 7 too :)
<apachelogger> ah
<apachelogger> no worries
 * apachelogger bot tons of cookies today
<jjesse> yay i want me a sticker
<yuriy> these? http://shop.canonical.com/product_info.php?products_id=418
<alleeJaunty> rickspencer3: when there is backend + gnome/kde frontend, is it one of your task to organize that both frontends get the same love?
<Arby> woo stickers :)
<Nightrose> stickers rock
 * a|wen is all for stickers
<Tonio_> same with me, all +1 for the stickers :)
<rickspencer3> alleeJaunty: deep question
 * nhandler sent his email
<Riddell> yuriy: yes
<yuriy> another thing on stickers
 * DaSkreech rolls in stickers and nomnomnoms cookies
<yuriy> I don't know what the plans are currently on reviving the aluminum case badge project
<apachelogger> Riddell: what mail address should we send to?
<yuriy> but for if and when that happens
<Riddell> apachelogger: jriddell@ubuntu .com
<jjesse> all of them
<apachelogger> okies
<yuriy> I'd like to know if there is significant interest in kubuntu ones
<JontheEchidna> aiee
<JontheEchidna> quassel just memleak'd on me :(
<jjesse> i want
<JontheEchidna> 40% of 640 MB
<alleeJaunty> rickspencer3: yeah, we miss someone that keeps an eye on all desktop flavours ;)
<apachelogger> EgS: ^
<Arby> yuriy +1 from me on case badges
<apachelogger> EgS: go fix your code :P
<nhandler> Riddell: I sent to whatever address the Contact this User feature on LP used
<yuriy> so if your LoCo is interested, please email me
<Lure> Riddell: jr@kubuntu.org also works, right?
<yuriy> we need a large order in order for it to be worth it and to get the price down
<Riddell> Lure: I belive so
<Riddell> any other agenda items?
<yuriy> large order as in thousands
<apachelogger> blizzz: read what yuriy said?
<apachelogger> Riddell: oh, yes, I think
<DaSkreech> Pepper rickspencer3 ?
<Riddell> I'm in berlin next week at the canonical team sprint, so probably not around as much in the evenings as usual
<blizzz> apachelogger: i? when?
<DaSkreech> rickspencer3: You are the manager of the Desktop Team?
<apachelogger> blizzz: backlog
<rickspencer3> DaSkreech: yes
<DaSkreech> What is the objective of the Desktop Team ?
<Riddell> DaSkreech: the Canonical Desktop Team (as opposed to Ubuntu one)
<rickspencer3> I'm sure Riddell shudders every time he hears me say it too
<Lure> rickspencer3: like "a boss of Riddell"?
<Lure> rickspencer3: then we have to talk...
<DaSkreech> :-D
 * Lure hides
<apachelogger> ^_^
<yuriy> ok, i'm off
<DaSkreech> bye yuriy
<seele> 'night yuriy
<nhandler> Bye yuriy
<Tonio_> Lure: haha :)
<apachelogger> one thing: _EVERYONE_ who isn't native english speaker pretty pretty please install Jaunty (if you install Jaunty) in your native language!
<Riddell> rickspencer3 isn't the technical lead by the way so don't go baffling him with code questions
<DaSkreech> Get a cookie
<Riddell> apachelogger: good idea
<DaSkreech> No no code questions :)
<rickspencer3> feel free to ask me coding questions, I'm sure I can give you wrong information
<DaSkreech> Just wanted to get a handle for what he's managing
<blizzz> apachelogger: what is aluminum case badge? however, since our target is becoming loco...
<apachelogger> I will upload 4.2.0's l10n packages within the next 2 days, so they will be in the next language pack updates
<apachelogger> We should prevent issues like the ones we had with intrepid at all costs
<Riddell> meeting over I think, thanks all, back to #kubuntu-devel
 * Nightrose waves
<Riddell> blizzz: that was yuriy's thing
<a|wen> wohoo
<rickspencer3> DaSkreech: I didn't want to blow off your question, we can hop on #kubuntu-devel ofr a few minutes
<rickspencer3> if you want
<blizzz> yuriy: same question on you
<DaSkreech> Sure
<alleeJaunty> rickspencer3: see you there
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-29
 * ogra waves 
 * StevenK shores
 * ogra waits for StevenK to make his std. joke
 * StevenK smirks
<ogra> :)
 * NCommander thinks stdjoke should be added to the next revision of the C language
<NCommander> :-)
<StevenK> MootBot!
<StevenK> Yay!
<NCommander> Its the first time its been here since I joined Canonical :-)
 * NCommander hugs MootBot 
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:00. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> mobile meeting is started :-)
<NCommander> awesome
<davidm> persia, do we not have a meeting scheduled today?
<persia> We do have a meeting scheduled today.
 * lool waves
<persia> The bot doesn't track the schedule due to a bug.
<davidm> Ah that explains it then
<davidm> Thanks
<davidm> We have a few todos from last week
<davidm> first persia you ran last weeks meeting correct?
<persia> I did.
<davidm> thank you
<lool> NCommander: You're running the next BTW IIUC
<persia> On the other hand, I didn't actually test oem-setup this week.  I'll try for tomorrow.
<NCommander> Do we have a meeting next week due to Germany?
<davidm> [topic] persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard
<persia> I didn't run that test.  I'll try for tomorrow.
<davidm> [action] persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard (co)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to get initial results from mobile-setup-wizard (co)
<davidm> [topic] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it
<StevenK> That just needs the spec written and then it can be marked Implemented
 * NCommander didn't even see that he was assigned to me.
<StevenK> Er
<StevenK> s/written/finished off/
<davidm> NCommander, can you get to it today?
<persia> No, it needs a test plan, and to be tested, and it's gone.
<NCommander> davidm, sure, no problem.
<NCommander> Was this assigned to me last meeting, or just now?
<StevenK> persia: Ah, right
<persia> NCommander, Last meeting.
<NCommander> hrm
<davidm> [action] NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it, will do by EOD 29 Jan
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to take over driving ship-seed-for-mobile-images to close it, will do by EOD 29 Jan
<StevenK> NCommander: I will tell you how to test it, then you can write the test plan and actually test it
<davidm> [topic] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week.
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week.
<NCommander> StevenK, thanks, I just changed the assignee in Launchpad
<persia> NCommander, No, don't change the Assignee: you're "Drafter", StevenK is Assignee (and did the implementation)
<NCommander> Oh
<NCommander> I didn't change the spec, but discussion hasn't gone anywhere. People who have ARM hardware have a sane(ish) booting solution, so there isn't much coming from #u-arm
 * persia didn't see any discussion there at all
 * ogra still doesnt call a serial console "sane" :)
<NCommander> +1 ogra
<davidm> Do I need to carry over the topic?
<persia> Yes.
<davidm> or do we have something else in it's place?
<lool> I think it's too early to pursue implementation of shism
<ogra> do we still want it ?
<NCommander> Yes, but I'm not expecting to get much out of #u-arm
<ogra> shism ? :)
<ogra> heh
<lool> I'd say it's pretty clear we will want bootable SD cards
<lool> But not sure
<NCommander> We have a set of patches for redboot to start extending it in that matter
<lool> If we need a way to send redboot over a serial port or stuff it in a SD card image, we have to package redboot
<davidm> [action] NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week. (co)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to reset arm-softboot-loader to "Drafting", and work towards a solution in #ubuntu-arm over the next week. (co)
<ogra> lool, but bootable SD can also carry a dd'ed preconfigured bootloader
<lool> Which bootloader?
<ogra> the one for the target arch
<davidm> I don't think we really want to touch the bootloaders, the board vendors should be doing that work I think
<ogra> whatever that is for this specific one
<lool> ogra: So we need it in the archive, right?
<NCommander> I think the point is that at least with the babbage we would have a bootloader on the SD card
<ogra> lool, thats what i say since *months*
<lool> davidm: If we have to ship it, we have to provide and maintain source for it I'm afraid
<NCommander> (although I'm not clear how you would set the board to boot from SD vs. PATA)
<davidm> lool, good point
 * persia notes that there's a whole channel to discuss this in, and an action to discuss outside the meeting (and the roadmap is busy)
<lool> ogra: And I never disagreed
<lool> ogra: I just postponed until it was clear we needed it :)
<davidm> I guess the babbage board does something that most boards don't the boot loader is written to the SD card and not internal flash
<ogra> well, we should have at least something like a redboot-source and a uboot-source package
<ogra> not sure we want/need actual binaries
<davidm> [topic] StevenK to review selection-of-arm-images
<MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK to review selection-of-arm-images
<NCommander> davidm, well, as far as we know, that internal flash is going away, no idea what's happening there specifically though.
<davidm> NCommander, agreed
<StevenK> davidm: I did review it -- it looks good to me
<ogra> davidm, the beagle and EVM can both boot fine with bootloader on SD
<davidm> OK, I'll mark that as closed, thanks StevenK
<NCommander> (side note, we are now building ARM CD images and netboot images)
<ogra> davidm, so please approve that spec :)
<davidm> ogra, good to know
<ogra> i'll set it to pending approval
<davidm> ogra, thainks
<davidm> [topic] persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications
<MootBot> New Topic:  persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications
 * ogra whistles innocently ... 
<persia> I made requests, but wasn't very forceful, and didn't get responses.  I'll send out a more forceful request in a couple hours.
<persia> We *need* to get these seed changes in by Monday, or we miss Alpha 4, and there's no point.
<davidm> thank you, I'll carry over
<davidm> Yes and I don't want to miss A4
<davidm> [action] persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications again
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to request conclusions from application research delegates for mobile-applications again
<ogra> wll, unr and mid images look fine so far
<ogra> *well even
<ogra> good enough for A4
<davidm> OK that concludes prior action items
<StevenK> ogra: Did you see the new UNR image!
<ogra> the touchscreen situation is very bad though
<StevenK> My blood, sweat and tears are all through that image!
<ogra> StevenK, i tried yesterdays because of the touchscreens
<davidm> persia, would you be so kind as to lead the roadmap review?
<ogra> its great
<persia> [topic] roadmap review
<StevenK> ... so be sure to wash your hands and your USB key
<ogra> StevenK, latest evtouch should at least recieve taps ... i have to fix the issues with movement events though
<persia> davidm, No.  Just topic each item in the list, and the assigned person will say someting.
<davidm> [topic]  roadmap review
<persia> (MootBot doesn't like me)
<MootBot> New Topic:   roadmap review
<davidm> [topic] offline-installer
<MootBot> New Topic:  offline-installer
<ogra> well, my build-arm-rootfs script seems to be widely used
<ogra> next step is to work out a way to do the same with d-i and preseeding
<ogra> additionally we need to discuss how to combine the livefses and kernels
<ogra> livefses for armel are available since last night
<persia> Isn't that just dropping the installed kernel package into the livefs?
<ogra> d-i images as well
<ogra> persia, FSVO "just" yes
<persia> Oh, right, the kernel d-i udebs.
<ogra> its actually "installing the kernel package inside the livefs in a VM
<ogra> "
<ogra> and then re-roll the livefs
<StevenK> persia: Please link the roadmap for lazy people who aren't sure they have it open?
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<ogra> StevenK, its linked on the agenda
<davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Roadmap
<davidm> ogra, you done?
<ogra> thats it so far about offline-installer, yes
<davidm> [topic] unr-handling-jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  unr-handling-jaunty
 * davidm needs to program his keyboard with Mootbot shortcuts ;-P
<StevenK> The UNR image this week has gotten new versions of the launcher, maximus and other fun things, and looks to be shaping up well
<StevenK> bfiller has gone insane and has prodded upstream about a few issues and filed a mass of bugs
<ogra> it looks great !
 * StevenK does the happy dance
<StevenK> I'm hoping to install it on my Q1 before I leave
<persia> StevenK, Are you pushing a new -meta soon?
<StevenK> persia: For?
<StevenK> I pushed one before I left for dinner
<persia> Ah, then my cache is just old :)
<StevenK> 1.131 was published 6 hours ago
<persia> RIght.  I'll fight with apt.  Moving on...
<davidm> I just installed Intrepid on my brand spanking new eee PC 900a had some fun getting WiFi to work, are we need to be able to solve that for Jaunty
 * StevenK points davidm at the kernel team
 * persia points davidm at the Any Other Business section of the agenda
<davidm> The eee PC will be a target.
<davidm> [topic] mid-application-switcher
<MootBot> New Topic:  mid-application-switcher
<ogra> there are DKMSified drivers in stgraber's PPA for the eee
<persia> Haven't started work.  Am expecting to have time to start next week.
<ogra> i can give you a link after the meeting
<ogra> kernel team should just include them
<StevenK> Speaking of the kernel team!
<ogra> poor cking ... entering at the wrong moment :P
 * StevenK grins
<davidm> persia, you done?
<persia> Yes.  Just bump to the next for these after a line or two, if there's no response, or we'll run over.
<davidm> [topic] mobile-setup-wizard
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-setup-wizard
<persia> Need to test: see my action item :) Should have a set of work to be done ready tomorrow, but don't expect it to be done until Alpha 5.
<davidm> [topic] mobile-team-seed-management
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-team-seed-management
<davidm> StevenK, ^^
<StevenK> Yeah, thinking
<StevenK> It's mostly done, aside from the last bit which I'm waiting for archive reorg
<persia> Last week it was basically pending: do we want to block it on deeper specification of archive reorg?
<StevenK> I'd rather we declare it done
<persia> And have the other bit be ad-hoc fallout of archive-reorg?
<StevenK> Sure
<davidm> [topic] ship-seed-for-mobile-images
<MootBot> New Topic:  ship-seed-for-mobile-images
<persia> I'm fine with that, so long as it gets documented in Unresolved Issues.
<ogra> NCommander, ^^ :)
<davidm> Guessing from action items he has no input now
<ogra> (hint: just say "in progress" :) )
<NCommander> I'll finish this up today with StevenK's assistance.
<davidm> [topic] general-resolution-for-touchscreen
<MootBot> New Topic:  general-resolution-for-touchscreen
<ogra> looks very bad
<ogra> none of my touchscreens work with evdev
<ogra> upstram are liars :P
<StevenK> Haha
<ogra> so i'm currently working first prio on getting evtouch back in shape to avoid regressions
<ogra> i *will* look into evdev and do what i can, but want to avoid us to release without a working solution
<ogra> so that spec might become jaunty+1 depending on upstream
<davidm> [topic] arm-softboot-loader
<MootBot> New Topic:  arm-softboot-loader
<NCommander> Well, some good, some bad
<NCommander> kexec is still broken on ARM (my patch doesn't work on real hardware)
<NCommander> On Freescale's HW, we still can't boot an initramfs from RedBoot (I did poke jerone about this)
<davidm> NCommander, you done
<NCommander> ?
<NCommander> No
<NCommander> Still typing
<NCommander> On the plus side, ogra came up with IMHO a very impress shell script based menu that parses grub's menu.lst and spits out a nice ASCII menu; I am planning to package this, and a modified kexec package so we can generate an initramfs on x86/amd64/etc. to test this, and to work on getting such packages in the archive
<NCommander> I also plan to try and bring futher discussion of this in #u-arm.
 * NCommander is done.
<ogra> well, it can parse any kind of file, not only menu.lst
<davidm> [topic] mid-jaunty-launcher
<MootBot> New Topic:  mid-jaunty-launcher
<StevenK> Need time
<ogra> kourou !
<davidm> [topic] selection-of-arm-images
<MootBot> New Topic:  selection-of-arm-images
<ogra> image side is done, we have live, d-i and server images
<StevenK> I've not had time to draft the parts of the spec/picking out what needs to be done
<StevenK> davidm: I wasn't done yet!
<StevenK> (I am now)
<ogra> rest will depend on how i implement the kernel merge stuff and waits for kernels
<davidm> [topic] StevenK sorry
<MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK sorry
<StevenK> Like that needed a seperate topic
<davidm> [topic] selection-of-arm-images
<MootBot> New Topic:  selection-of-arm-images
<ogra> well, what i said above :)
 * davidm has to stop prequeuing
<ogra> ogra> image side is done, we have live, d-i and server images
<ogra> <ogra> rest will depend on how i implement the kernel merge stuff and waits for actual kernels
<ogra> done ...
<davidm> [topic] mid-screen-rotation
<MootBot> New Topic:  mid-screen-rotation
<ogra> not started yet, but since its a trivial gui that will take me only a day
<persia> Safe to target for Alpha 5?
<ogra> i'll kick it off probably in a spare hour at the sprint
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> A5 should be fine
<ogra> does the spec define a language to be used ?
<davidm> [action] target mid-screen-rotation for A5
<MootBot> ACTION received:  target mid-screen-rotation for A5
<davidm> [topic] mid-display-manager
<MootBot> New Topic:  mid-display-manager
<persia> ogra, Nope, although it presumes python.
<ogra> (C or python ?)
<ogra> C will be smaller though
<davidm> ogra, either is fine
<ogra> oki
<davidm> lool, mid-display-manager??
<lool> We discussed the implementation with Emmet shortly; no other update.
<davidm> [topic] hildon-packaging-jaunty
<MootBot> New Topic:  hildon-packaging-jaunty
<persia> I' m about 60% drafted locally: should post for review in the next couple days.
<davidm> [topic] lpia-versus-i386
<MootBot> New Topic:  lpia-versus-i386
<lool> Will discuss with cjwatson and doko over the sprint along other toolchain changes.  (Nothing else to report on lpia-versus-i386.)
<davidm> [topic] mobile-applications
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-applications
<persia> I've mostly wrestled it into an actual spec, but will need input.  Will be sending reminder email in a couple hours.
<davidm> [topic] mobile-spec-cleanup
<MootBot> New Topic:  mobile-spec-cleanup
<persia> Haven't touched it, and don't expect to get back to it until FF.
<davidm> [topic] recovery-partition
<MootBot> New Topic:  recovery-partition
<StevenK> But it doesn't get blocked by FF \o/
<lool> No progress this week.  High on my TODO list along the other high priority stuff.  (Nothing else to report on recovery-partition.)
<davidm> that concludes roadmap review
<ogra> yay
<davidm> [topic] Other Business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Business
 * ogra really likes the productivity of the new meeting structure
<StevenK> Yup.
<NCommander> same
<persia> Wifi drivers for the Eee.
<StevenK> We're nearly done and there's still 13 minutes to go
<davidm> Yes, WiFi drivers for eee PC
<ogra> https://launchpad.net/~stgraber/+archive/ppa has a rt2860 driver package
<ogra> working fine with DKMS
<ogra> it would be good to get that merged into our kernel if legally possible
<ogra> (not sure what holds it back or if that hanst actually happened in jaunty even)
<cjwatson> ogra: (for the record, livefses for armel have been available for a lot longer than since last night)
<ogra> *hasnt
<ogra> cjwatson, *publically* available :)
<davidm> we will need to look into WiFi status to see how it can be solved.  Took me a couple of hours  to track down a working solution for the 900a, and 30 minutes to compile and install same.
<davidm> Will need solutions for 700 900 and 1000
<ogra> right, the DKMS solution is way cleaner and will update automatically with the kernel
<StevenK> davidm: I think the kernel team is the first port of call
<ogra> ++
<davidm> Agreed, I'll explore with pgraner
<davidm> [action] davidm to explore eee PC WiFi with pgraner this week
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to explore eee PC WiFi with pgraner this week
<davidm> OK any other business?  Or I can close the meeting/
<ogra> i think the 700 is supported OOTB btw
<ogra> using ath5k
<StevenK> Yes, I have one
<StevenK> Are we having a meeting next week?
<ogra> we probably should try
<davidm> StevenK, I think so we can have it from sprint
<davidm> Easy enough I think unless bandwidth is too poor
<StevenK> Having an IRC meeting at 1pm will be a novelty
<cjwatson> bandwidth will not be great
<ogra> not really :P
<cjwatson> apparently the hotel has only given us 40% of what we asked for
<ogra> bah
<ogra> do we have local mirrors ?
<davidm> cjwatson, yes I saw that but I think we can sneak IRC through
<cjwatson> so it'll be 2Mbit
<cjwatson> ogra: yes
 * davidm crosses fingers
<ogra> worked fine in london that way
<NCommander> O_O;
<NCommander> 2Mb?
<StevenK> cjwatson: Oh good. It will feel just like home
<NCommander> and 200 people from Canonical?
<NCommander> ....
<davidm> synchronous
<cjwatson> 200? since when?
<ogra> heh
<cjwatson> this is a distro sprint, not allhands
<NCommander> Oh
<NCommander> *coughs*
<NCommander> Ok
<StevenK> Fail
<ogra> NCommander, we dont all bring our families
<StevenK> Haha
<davidm> StevenK, nah, it will still be a meg more then you have at home
<cjwatson> people will have to be reasonably parsimonious about bandwidth
 * StevenK glares at davidm 
 * NCommander notes to download all Ubuntu ISOs before he leaves
<StevenK> davidm: I have 1.5Mbit, thank you oh so much
<davidm> OK sounds like we don't have anything else so endmeeting going once
<ogra> NCommander, we'll have local mirrors, i hope that includes cdimage
<cjwatson> NCommander: we'll have a local cdimage mirror
<ogra> snap :)
<davidm> StevenK, but OZ only has 1 Meg off the land ;-)
<ogra> haha
<StevenK> Oh, thank $DEITY
<StevenK> rsyncing images to test won't suck, then
<NCommander> yay for !suck
<ogra> berlin has lots of cafes with free wlan though ;)
<StevenK> I'll just need to remember to copy said images to my laptop
<ogra> we culd just swarm out
<davidm>  endmeeting going twice
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 06:57.
<davidm> Thanks everyone
<ogra> thanks
<NCommander> amazing, we finished a meeting with time to spare
<StevenK> Ooh, 3 minutes
<persia> Who's here for the Java meeting?
<Koon> o/
<slytherin> me
<persia> Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
<persia> No special agenda items this time.
<persia> robilad is missing: Do we want to keep that on the RoadMap?  It's been a while since there was any activity.
<persia> If nothing else, might be good to try to specify things in more detail there.
<slytherin> persia: I will mail him asking to update roadmap
<persia> slytherin, OK.  I'm in favour of making Java servers work, but it needs someone driving :)
<persia> Next up: MoveToUniverse: is there anything significant still pending?  Work to be done?
<slytherin> jboss packages moved to universe. :-)
 * ScottK is curious if there will be any discussion about packaging policy?
<persia> That was the last big chunk, right?  The rest require licensing issues?
<slytherin> Probably. The only one I am planning to file bug for is worldwind.
<persia> ScottK, It's not on the agenda, but can be raised after the Roadmap.
<persia> slytherin, OK.  When you get that sorted, maybe move it to Done ?
<Koon> ScottK: yep, i'll summarize the current thread
<slytherin> persia: sure
<persia> Koon, Maven (and let's leave glassfish/geronimo until after)
<slytherin> wait
<slytherin> I have just one last update.
<persia> Right.  Still MoveToUniverse then.
<slytherin> ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿there are two jboss related packages in depwait in universe, libjboss-cache2-java and libjboss-buildmagic-java. buildmagic is circular build dep (on itself) and cache2 has build dep on a package which is not even in Debian.
<persia> buildmagic can be sorted by special application to the buildd admins to do a manual build once.  Has a request been made?
<slytherin> No. I haven't even checked if the circular dep is actually required
<slytherin> It would be great if someone can take over the work.
<persia> And what's the issue with cache2?  How do we resolve that?  New package in pkg-java?
<slytherin> persia: probably look into Torsten's personal repository for the package and if it is found ask him to upload to Debian so we can do a sync
<persia> So it sounds like these aren't big issues, but it's just a time thing?
<slytherin> yes, and I am tired of solving the circular build deps. :-(
<persia> Right.  Maybe issue a call for help to the mailing list?
<persia> Anything else on MoveToUniverse?
<persia> OK.  Moving to maven : Koon?
<Koon> For Maven we are working on converging approaches with Debian. I'll meet with doko and Torsten next week to discuss that.
<Koon> The approaches are mostly the same (no Maven patch), I just have to make sure our use cases are covered. And Torsten knows a lot more about Maven/Java than I do so his approach is probably better
<persia> Do you think we'll hit Jaunty, or is it likely jaunty+1?
<Koon> Looking at recent progress I think we may be able to hit Jaunty. It all depends on Torsten though, since we'll most likely sync his work
<persia> And that includes ludovicc's work?
<slytherin> yes, AFAIK.
<Koon> ludovicc has been working on the tools together with Torsten.
<persia> OK.  That sounds like a good plan.  Looking forward to next week.
<Koon> definitely
<persia> Anything else for maven?
<Koon> Nope.
<persia> OK.  For Removing Java 5:
<persia> I got as far as registering the spec
<persia> (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/java5-removal) but haven't drafted it.
<persia> I have a couple script fragments slytherin put together earlier, and expect to have something for review by the next meeting.
<persia> Not yet sure how to get the spec approved, but I'll try to get that sorted as well.
<persia> And that's where we are.
<persia> Now, anyone have other items they want to raise?
<slytherin> none from my side.
<ScottK> I'm curious if there's any conclusion from the how do we package Java thread.
<Koon> No conclusion yet...
<Koon> general position from the ML answers so far seem to be to keep the clean approach we've had until now... do the packages we can from source and binary-package those we can't.
<Koon> influence upstream to be compatible with the stack we provide
<ScottK> I'm curious if there's any conclusion from the how do we package Java thread.
<ScottK> Sorrt for the double post
<persia> The pointers to JPackage were interesting: is there much we can share there, or did they fall into the trap of specified versions?
<ScottK> Sorry even
<Koon> No they didn't fall into that trap
<persia> It just sort of lost momentum?
<Koon> My impression is that their appraoch (as well as ours) doesn't scale well
<ScottK> One point that I don't think got much mention on the list is that code copies are a security nightmare.
<Koon> at one point, you cannot add any package anymore because you'll break some others
<persia> I just don't understand how that's special for Java, as compared to other languages.
<ScottK> persia: Which 'that'?
<persia> There's a somewhat related thread on ubuntu-devel-discuss about jabref, and when responding to that I noticed just *how* much random embedded stuff ended up in some .jar files.
<persia> ScottK, "at one point, you cannot add any package anymore because you'll break some others".
<Koon> ScottK: I think everyone knows that code duplication is bad for security (hopefully)
<ScottK> I think it's particularly relevant here because at least one proposal is particulalry bad in that regard.
<persia> ScottK, Well, the "binary-in-multiverse" is bad in that regard too.
<persia> The issue is more that upstreams tend to try to bundle everything, rather than working with their upstreams.
<Koon> unfortunately in most cases it's not pure code duplication. It's duplication of code that exist in an API-incompatible version somewhere else
<ScottK> Agreed, but I think in Multiverse there is no suggestion that things are supportable from a security perspective.
<Koon> pure code duplicates are easy to solve with a couple symlinks and Depends: entries
<ScottK> This is a lot like the Ruby Gems argument we had last cycle.
<ScottK> I don't know of a good answer beyone help upstream gain some sanity.
<persia> Well, it's also user education.  Many users don't actually care about it (cf. Jabref thread).
<Koon> I still kinda hope we can build from source + a static API description
<persia> They just download something from a website that works cross-platform that also works in Ubuntu.
<Koon> because imho there is no technical reason to require the presence of the binary artifact
<Koon> for bytecode generation
<persia> Koon, That's an interesting idea, but I wonder why the API is being checked.
<ScottK> I think there is some good work to be done around this.
<Koon> maven proved that you can generate bytecode with one version and use another one at runtime
<persia> Also, how do we confirm that the checked API matches that of our packaged library?
<ScottK> Until we have a good way to support this, there's really not much reason to put it in the archive, IMO.
<persia> ScottK, Well, I'd argue that anything with sufficient user demand would benefit from mirroring support, etc. (even in multiverse).
<persia> Lets us do things like track a version that was tested, and worked at release time.
<Koon> yes, it all depends how bad the software is wanted
<Koon> it's just not something we would recommend as a general way of doing things
<ScottK> Except if it's GPL, I don't think we can just toss a binary blob over the fence and declare victory.
<persia> Oh, certainly.  Copyleft licenses are special that way.
<persia> BSD/X/ISC/CDDL are a little more forgiving.
 * slytherin has to be away for some work. will be in 15-20 minutes
<ScottK> If users can download it from a web site and have it work, until it's actually maintainable, I'd suggest let them do that, but that's just me.
<persia> Err, except CDDL is copyleft, so scratch that one.
<Koon> There is no Java compilation option allowing to ignore method checking... but maybe we could talk with Sun about this. That would /so/help
<persia> They tend to have presence at UDS: let's make sure it's one of the items for discussion in May.
<Koon> i'm pretty sure it would generate the very same binaries
<ScottK> I think that's the kind of thinking we need now...  What are the tools we need to make these Java amalgamations distro friendly.
<persia> There's usually only one Java session, about the JDK/JRE, but having a couple might let us explore more topics (if there is room).
<ScottK> I think figure policy and tools for the long run and then figure out how to get there.
<Koon> sidenote: robilad discussed API tracking tools that Sun wants to more closely integrate in future Java
<Koon> So there is definitely room for improvement
<persia> Yeah.  There's a lot of thought about hjaving Java7 be sensibly modular, and encouraging use of common libraries.
<persia> It's just that Java7 is always rather future.
<Koon> So I'd use temporary workarounds rather than policy transhing
<Koon> trashing
<Koon> to get the Java software we may require in today
<ScottK> I'd encourage you to make very sure you have a broad consensus on how you decide to approach that.
<persia> Well, most of the workarounds end up pushing to multiverse, where there's much less worry.
<persia> How much consensus is required?
<Koon> persia: or restricted ?
<ScottK> Restricted is for drivers.
<persia> Koon, No, not restricted.
<Koon> ok
<persia> Koon, The incentive to have things in restricted ought be going away before any of these stacks are in shape to be considered.
<ScottK> Koon: I think if it stays in multiverse and is legal (no GPL/CDDL blobs), then not a lot.
<ScottK> But whatever approach is taken, it needs to be documented and get some community review.
<persia> So, anything else about this packaging thread, or are we done?
<Koon> nothing from my side
<persia> OK.  Anyone else have anything to raise?
<persia> In that case, meeting adjourned.
<persia> Thank you all for coming, and we'll do it again next week.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-30
<mok01> Hi
<persia> Hi.
<persia> Anyone else here for the MOTU Meeting?
<jpds> Afternoon.
 * Hobbsee waves
<persia> RIght.  Let's wait until we're 5, and get started.
<mok01> Apparently there's something going on in classroom
<persia> (more would be better, but less is boring)
<persia> Yes, the "How to run a Bug Jam" session.
 * james_w waves
<persia> OK.  Who wants to chair?
 * james_w is writing a spec, but will pay attention
 * mok01 nominates persia as chair
<persia> OK.
<persia> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 06:05. The chair is persia.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<persia> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
<persia> [topic] Discussion about REVU
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discussion about REVU
<persia> mok01, You're up.
<mok01> Well, I've written up a proposal for a revised workflow
<mok01> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVUWorkflowProposal
<persia> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVUWorkflowProposal
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVUWorkflowProposal
<mok01> In principle it's not very different from what we have today
<mok01> It's just organized so the flow is clearer to both uploaders and reviewer
<mok01> and it gives us the possibility of closing for new packages
<mok01> so we can focus on the ones that are already in the queue
<persia> I don't really understand the value of closing for new packages at certain times.  In terms of a typical cycle, when would you expect it to be closed?
<nhandler> mok01: I personally am against the idea of closing REVU for new packages
<nhandler> persia: He had suggested after Feature Freeze iirc
<mok01> That is one option, but I propose that it is up to the MOTUs to decide
<persia> To me that's counterintuitive.  I'd think we'd want new uploads (for the next release) between FF and release, and just focus on things in the queue from open to FF when we can actually upload.
<persia> In practice, of course, REVU is mostly completely ignored after FF, so perhaps it doesn't matter.
<mok01> Yes, the problem is that the influx of new packages is greater than our capacity to process them
<nhandler> Even if we have way more packages than we can handle, I think having them available on REVU is much more beneficial than not having them at all
<nhandler> mok01: The same thing could be said about bugs on Launchpad. Should we stop accepting new bug reports?
<mok01> nhandler: don't be silly
<Hobbsee> nhandler: well, apport does get turned off for crashes in stable releases, for that very reason, fwiw.
<mok01> Anyway, closing is a minor point.
<nhandler> As for restructuring the lists, I am still a little unclear as to what this is meant to accomplish
<mok01> According to the proposal, unreviewed uploads will be on it's own list
<mok01> The packages that have received >= 1 review, move to the "In process" list
<mok01> and then the progress pretty much like now
<nhandler> But what is the benefit of having that? Having more lists just means that a MOTU has to make a concsious decision about what list to review
<nhandler> Currently, packages with 1 advocation are at the top and easy to see
<nhandler> Packages that need work are at the bottom and out of the way
<mok01> nhandler: ATM, the list is cluttered with completely new uploads and people putting the final touches on their package
<nhandler> mok01: This is one reason more MOTUs should subscribe to packages
<mok01> And cluttered by packages that already have an advocate, but the 2nd one has asked for some changes
<mok01> nhandler: that's voluntary, of course
<nhandler> mok01: It is, but subscribing to packages that you review would solve a LOT of the problems we currently have
<Hobbsee> Question:  are we actually pushing people not to start doing MOTU stuff by doing new packages?  I've seen some of the IRC channel people pointing in the direction of patches and such, but haven't seen a memo on the official status
<mok01> nhandler: I have reviewed a LOT this cycle, you don't need to explain to me how it works
<nhandler> mok01: These comments are dirrected at you personally, they are just general comments
<nhandler> Hobbsee: That is my understanding. But I don't think there is any official policy about it yet
<mok01> nhandler: well, you prefixed your comments with my nick
<Hobbsee> nhandler: because, if that's the case, this will not be such an issue next cycle.
<persia> There's never been a policy about either way.
<Hobbsee> which means one could probably advertise for a concerted effort once, and people not getting hit with consistent mails about it being REVU day yet again
<mok01> Hobbsee: I think that's an issue we might discuss separately. I'd like to see some kind of selection of the new packages, but let's wait with that discussion
<persia> The set of people who edited the GettingStarted page chose to focus on Packaging.  The set of people who edited the Contributing page chose to focus on patching, more people point at GettingStarted.
<persia> The way to address this is to edit the wiki, not wait for some decision.
<mok01> I have drafted a proposal for a getting started page that points people towards bug fixing etc
 * DktrKranz waves
 * nhandler has to leave
<Hobbsee> mok01: Hurrah!  I agree that it should be discussed separately, but this discussion has that as a dependancy.
<mok01> Hobbsee: well, not really. We can modify the workflow without such a decision
<Hobbsee> score :)
<mok01> IMO it will make reviewing life easier, and we can collectively focus on packages where the uploader is active
<mok01> Right now, there are > 125 packages in the "needs-review" section, so by stochastics, our effort is spread on all of them at once
<mok01> Of those 125, I estimate that about half have never receieved a review
<mok01> So it would be good if they did not appear in the same list
<mok01> Because then everybody would focus on the 60 or so, and they would get processed quicker
<mok01> To more satisfaction for all
<persia> Well, what's the goal?
<persia> I always thought the goal was to get in the most interesting packages that were missing.
<persia> Focusing on "active uploaders" doesn't seem to help this goal.
<mok01> The goal is to get a process where we don't spread ourselves too thin on a very large number of uploads
<persia> I'd rather MOTU focused on packages that were interesting to them, or first-uploaded in the case where they just were doing some REVU.
<mok01> persia: my proposal does not rule that out
<mok01> persia: see use case 4
<persia> Hrm.  I see.
<persia> So it's not actually about retargeting workflow, but rather to give reviewers a better idea of what to expect when selecting a review?
<persia> Maybe we could just list the category in the table, rather than having separate lists?
<mok01> That's a matter of layout I guess.
<mok01> I don't see the point of having a very long cluttered list though
<persia> Well, if you're not specifying which should be examined, what part is the clutter?
<DktrKranz> Having different "kinds" of packages is good if a MOTU is looking at a given kind of package (i.e. I haven't much time, let's pick an almost good one)...
<mok01> DktrKranz: exactly
<DktrKranz> ... but are we sure we don't focus too much on "almost ready" packages, discarding "New" packages?
<DktrKranz> that's my major issue with it
<persia> I don't think the ones that have previously been advocated should be considered those that don't need much review.
<mok01> There is not much point of having 125 packages waiting for processing
<persia> I think those require the *most* detailed review, in case the previous reviewer missed something.
<mok01> It's better to give the final review to a package to get it moving along the pipeline
<DktrKranz> It depends on how much detailed first review was
<DktrKranz> I try to have a deep review first
<DktrKranz> just to make sure major issues come out soon
<mok01> persia: that's why I have the "Advocate" section, with packages that have 1 advocate.
<mok01> They stay in that section
<mok01> and don't go back to Processing unless the advocate removes the vote
<DktrKranz> it's frustrating to send back a package for a typo and then send back it again for a bigger issue. I think it discourages contributors.
<mok01> DktrKranz: yes
<persia> mok01, Would perhaps continuance of advocacy meet that need: so that if someone advocates, the advocacy persists for further uploads?
<mok01> persia: yes
<persia> My fear there is that a change might mean that I no longer wanted to grant advocacy.
<mok01> persia: from the logic, that if you've advocated a package at a certain stage, it's ok to improve it
<mok01> persia: then you could remomve your advocacy
<persia> One of the reasons I *don't* think it's a good idea to have new people packaging is because the changes that sometimes come in the final version are significant enough that I remove advocacy.
<persia> Yes, but that requires me to pay specific attention.  When I have time for REVU, I tend to do *lots* of packages, and I don't tend to look at the same one twice.
<mok01> persia: you still have that option
<mok01> persia: you can leave a not to the next reviewer that you want to approve the final pacakge
<DktrKranz> What about have the second reviewer to ask for a confirmation of the first ACK before uploading?
<mok01> :-)
 * mok01 propose that we take a look at the REVU list now
<mok01> http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/
<persia> mok01, But then I still get poked, which I don't prefer :(
<mok01> Then you have to trust your fellow MOTUs
<mok01> Most of the packages at the top have never received a review.
<mok01> They were uploaded in november
<mok01> I have notes that tell me which packages I follow
<mok01> so I go to the bottom of the list to see if any of those have come back
<mok01> That is deceitful to the people at the top, who think they are next in line
<DktrKranz> I personally trust other MOTUs, I think we hadn't major issues with NEW packages so far, theygo through a-a review at a second stage and can eventually be modified once in the archives.
<persia> I'm not sure it's deceitful.  Perhaps we just need to make it more clear that REVU is not a FIFO queue.
<DktrKranz> and probably will never be
<mok01> A lot of people just give up and go away with a bad impression of MOTU
<mok01> Look at the length of the needs-work list
<DktrKranz> mok01: I think mentors.debian.net have the same issues, packages are not processed regularly, but on a "i-have-time-to-do-some" basis
<persia> Well part of that is because it's not being trimmed.  I used to archive stuff with 3 months with no upload or comment.
<mok01> mentors,debian.net = never processed unless you find a sponsor
<persia> Anyway, part of the issue is the assumption that just uploading to REVU is a good way to learn.
<DktrKranz> people could be discouraged about long time for a review, but there are several options to speed up things
<persia> Many of the packagers with whom I communicate don't use the software in question, don't understand if it works, and are just learning packaging.
<DktrKranz> such asking in #ubuntu-motu during REVU days
<persia> That was less true in the past, but it certainly discourages me from REVUing things where I don't see the benefit.
<mok01> DktrKranz: yes, I give priority to people in IRC
<mok01> persia: you don't have to
<persia> Personally, I'd rather keep REVU *hard*, because I think we don't do enough for the packages we already maintain.
<DktrKranz> persia: good point. There are packages which are there just to say "hey, I've packed something!"
<persia> And discourage people from putting things there unless they really have some need to get it in the distro.
<mok01> Now, though, we have PPAs and that ought to be able to take the load off REVU
<persia> Well, yes, but it's also taken some of the reviewers away.
<mok01> persia: but that is part of another discussion
<persia> Since the introduction of PPAs, a number of reviewers have been reviewing PPA packages, rather than REVU,and I've seen more duplication of work, and less coordination of responses.
<DktrKranz> I don't remember what, but I noticed a package made with ch*ckinst@ll some times ago...
<mok01> Although I have thoughts about how to choose packages for review, the proposal is ONLY about organizing the web page differently
<persia> I guess I just don't see the benefit.
<mok01> persia: it wont be any worse for you then
<persia> Fair.
<mok01> OK, so if we look at the top of the REVU page... the packages with the green icons
<DktrKranz> I'm in favour of it, no-review packages would be more visible than recently-touched packages, so we can focus REVU days to spot "New" packages
<mok01> they have one advocate. I the next one wants a trivial change, it goes waaaayy down to the bottom of the Needs Review
<DktrKranz> now, we just can't
<nhandler> What about making that a toggleable option? So that if a MOTU requests a trivial change, they can check a box that would prevent the package from going down to the bottom of the list again?
<DktrKranz> nhandler: this would be handled better via "neutral vote", IMHO
<DktrKranz> "I don't like this, but it's minor and I won't push you back just for a typo"
<persia> It seems there's still an assumption of a FIFO queue.  Do we want that for some reason?
<mok01> I think it's better if the package remains in the Advocate queue when it has 1 advocate. It makes a big difference for the motivation of the uploader.
<mok01> Sometimes the 2nd advocate asks for a package to be split.
<mok01> but even so, the package is in pretty good shape
<mok01> with copyright etc.
<DktrKranz> mok01: about REVU code change, do changes you propose affect current view of REVU page? Can both variant co-exist?
<DktrKranz> both variant = actual display of packages and new way
<mok01> DktrKranz: uhm... well the web page is just a view of the data base, so I'd think so
<DktrKranz> so, we can have two pages
<DktrKranz> just to see if people like the idea
<mok01> DktrKranz: Solomonic solution
<DktrKranz> so, it's just a matter of bring things back to repair
<nhandler> Didn't someone have a "testing" version of REVU when they were testing the new theme?
<persia> I'd like that.  While I'm not seeing a benefit in the abstract, I might see one with the example.
<persia> Doesn't even need to be done in REVU code or live, but just a layout sample.
<persia> nhandler, There's a few of them that were set up.  Dunno of any that are publically available.
<DktrKranz> if we can have a REVU server up for a while, we can test things and eventually push on main site
<DktrKranz> I could ask a friend of mine to host the stuff
<mok01> I am willing to help with the programming
<DktrKranz> is it Python?
<mok01> I know python & postgresql pretty well
<DktrKranz> or... is it ! perl? :)
<mok01> DktrKranz: yes
<mok01> python, mod_python
<DktrKranz> mok01: I can lend a hand too
 * nhandler likes python
<nhandler> s/python/perl/
<persia> 5 minutes.
<persia> So, please criticise this summary:
<mok01> What I'd need to test, is a copy of the database
<persia> We have a proposal, we have some interested parties: a mock-up will be put up, and some basic work on REVU code, for futher discussion.
<persia> Is that correct?
<mok01> yes
 * DktrKranz agrees
<Hobbsee> ++
<persia> mok01, Do you need the live DB, or could you upload a few packages to a test server?
<mok01> uhm
<persia> (I can extract the live DB, but don't know how to hand over the gigabytes of unpackaged package files)
<persia> s/unpackaged/unpacked/
<mok01> I was thinking of having a database locally, so I could play with it
<mok01> I don't need the packages
<DktrKranz> What about having the main DB without files? Is it a problem for REVU?
<persia> Oh, the structure is in the REVU code.
<persia> DktrKranz, The links will all be broken.
<james_w> as it's just the front page then throwing an extra python script on the existing REVU for wider testing would be no problem I imagine
<mok01> The structure is mostly in the file called index.py
<persia> So, let's finish this with the following actions:
<persia> mok01, Will investigate the REVU code, and play with the DB
<persia> DktrKranz, will investigate hosting options for a testing REVU server
<mok01> +
<DktrKranz> agreed
<persia> nhandler, will coordinate the process, and bring the discussion back to MOTU when we're reached the next step.
<persia> Did I miss anything?
<mok01> sounds about right
<persia> OK.  Any other business that needs to be raised for this meeting?
<DktrKranz> I'm fine with that
<mok01> (so who do we need to get in touch with to get a copy of the database?)
<persia> mok01, nhandler (or I'll help if that breaks)
<persia> Any volunteers to write the minutes and send them out?
<mok01> I am not impartial, so it shouldn't be me ;-)
<nhandler> persia: I don't have access to spooky yet
<mok01> I have access, but not to the database
 * DktrKranz raises his hand to write minutes
<persia> DktrKranz, Thank you.
<persia> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:02.
<DktrKranz> not before tomorrow, though :(
<mok01> Thanks everyone! I have to run, another meeting coming up!
<DktrKranz> I have to move my office to a new location today
<DktrKranz> anyway, yay for motu meetings! long time no see :)
 * DktrKranz is off now
 * robbiew is on holiday...so quietly sits in the back of the room ;)
<pitti> hello
<ScottK> o/
<cjwatson> afternoon
<zul> hello
<rickspencer3> hello
<Riddell> quick, let's release before we find problems
<cjwatson> too late
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> morning, folks
<slangasek> pgraner, davidm, Riddell, sbeattie, Hobbsee: there?
<zul> im subbing for dendrobates today
<sbeattie> barely
<Riddell> mm hmm
<pgraner> slangasek: yep
<slangasek> zul: ah, hello then :)
<zul> hello
<davidm> slangasek, hi
<slangasek> ok, sounds like we've got everyone we're going to get, let's get started
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:06. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Getting a head start on 8.04.3 point release
<MootBot> New Topic:  Getting a head start on 8.04.3 point release
<slangasek> so 8.04.2 is behind us (just); I'd like to ask folks to have a look at the bugs that are already targeted to 8.04.3, and if there are some tasks there for members of your team, to please make sure that they get worked on sooner rather than later
<slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs?field.milestone=2132 - targeted bugs for 8.04.3
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs?field.milestone=2132 - targeted bugs for 8.04.3
<pitti> noted
<cjwatson> ack
<cjwatson> three for foundations I think, plus that base-installer one that TBH may not happen
<slangasek> ok, on to team reports
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
<sbeattie> it's possible that those tasks might not show up on the team assignment pages, due to a launchpadlib bug where the master task is closed.
<slangasek> sbeattie: anything you want to cover on this, since heno's not here?
<sbeattie> not much, davmor2 is doing smoke testing, anything to say?
<sbeattie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/+bug/314263 has hit people filing apport bugs.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 314263 in glib2.0 "regression - URIs opened with firefox %u load as local files (file:///...)" [High,Confirmed]
<sbeattie> so it'd be nice to get that squashed asap.
<pitti> Chris Coulson is debugging that ATM, and he found the reason
<slangasek> sbeattie: noted; that one's on the hit list
<pitti> not a solution yet, though (just told me 20 mins ago)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team
<sbeattie> okay, otherwise I don't have anything to say here, I just realized 5 min ago that heno was traveling.
<slangasek> rickspencer3: hi
<rickspencer3> hi
<slangasek> sbeattie: ack, thanks
<pitti> the desktop team report is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus; want me to paste it in here, or read it on the wiki?
<slangasek> rickspencer3: we have a long list of Desktop bugs; I don't know that we need to go over each one, but if there are any that there's relevant status that should be discussed?
<pitti> For the record, <chrisccoulson> i think i understand that bug completely now pitti. i'm going to try and write a patch for it and send it upstream
<cjwatson> the oem-config one on the desktop list may well be foundations
<rickspencer3> I think that we are on top of them
<cjwatson> I've been working my way up to looking at it today (but got sidetracked into another critical bug along the way)
<slangasek> [ACTION] chriscoulson to fix bug #314263 so GNOME URI passing works again
<MootBot> ACTION received:  chriscoulson to fix bug #314263 so GNOME URI passing works again
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 314263 in glib2.0 "regression - URIs opened with firefox %u load as local files (file:///...)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/314263
<pitti> slangasek: I dont' think we actually need to discuss any of the bugs; it's mainly a status update
<rickspencer3> and the status is covered on our wiki
<rickspencer3> however, I would be happy to discuss if it seems useful
<slangasek> [LINK] Desktop team summary at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  Desktop team summary at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<cjwatson> pitti: are nvidia/fglrx driver releases expected in the reasonably short term?
<cjwatson> (i.e. do we have contacts who can speak to that?)
<slangasek> rickspencer3: I was happy to make some headway on bug #321311 this morning; the severity is reduced for me now, but if this affects /anyone/ using IM, then CJK users are affected, so I think we should treat it as critical for now?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 321311 in gtk+2.0 "gnome-screensaver dialog helper spins indefinitely, never unlocks the session, when GTK_IM_MODULE is set" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/321311
<pitti> I can't say, TBH
<pitti> I'll ask tseliot/bryce
<slangasek> ArneGoetje: can you test bug #321311 with whatever the default CJK IMs are?
<rickspencer3> slangasek: ack on the severity rating for 321311
<lool> slangasek: I think I got this bug without GTK_IM* set, and others confirmed this as well
<slangasek> cjwatson: I happened to have an out-of-band conversation with keithp last night, it sounds like one of the two (fglrx, IIRC) is on-track for a release
<rickspencer3> cjwatson: I think that fglrx may come in fairly late for Jaunty, as we are putting the same switcheroo for -ati into place in case it comes to that
<cjwatson> rickspencer3: deja vu all over again
<pitti> tseliot works on the nvidia drivers right now
<rickspencer3> as a contingency measure
<cjwatson> slangasek: ok, that's good
<pitti> so they might make it to alpha4
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to follow up with bryce regarding binary driver status
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to follow up with bryce regarding binary driver status
<pitti> apparently new upstream releases just went out
<rickspencer3> cjwatson: yes, except this time I think there is already a way to handle the issue in place, so it's not so risky
<slangasek> pitti: oh, nice
<pitti> slangasek: so make that for ati
<lool> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/320666
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 320666 in gnome-screensaver "gnome-screensaver fails to unlock after gtk 2.15.0 upgrade" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to follow up on bug #320666 to find out why users without GTK_IM_MODULE set are also affected
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to follow up on bug #320666 to find out why users without GTK_IM_MODULE set are also affected
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 320666 in gnome-screensaver "gnome-screensaver fails to unlock after gtk 2.15.0 upgrade" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/320666
<slangasek> nothing we need to discuss as far as the Desktop specs?
<pitti> my biggest concern right now is landing the DX/OLS stuff
<pitti> rickspencer3: you seem to be more up to date than me for that?
<rickspencer3> yes
<slangasek> right, I was just noticing that was the first item - should Julian have a standing invite to release meetings as well?
<rickspencer3> they are packaging code drop #2 today, so should be available for us on Monday
<rickspencer3> slangasek: I think dbarth might be more appropriate than julian
<rickspencer3> though julian does own some deliverables such as art, etc... that you might want to be tracking
<slangasek> [ACTION] robbiew to add dbarth to the list of standing invites for release meetings
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew to add dbarth to the list of standing invites for release meetings
<slangasek> let's add dbarth for now, hopefully he can speak for Julian and we only need to lose 1.5 man hours instead of 3 :-)
<rickspencer3> So we should have the notification system well on the way to being done next week, and the messaging indicator is partly working and there is a pidgin IM plugin for it that is working
<robbiew> slangasek: done
<slangasek> \o/
<rickspencer3> I don't know how far they have gotten on the KDE parts, though
<rickspencer3> I think they are giving themselves a deadline of next Friday to see if they will try to get NS/MI ready for Kubuntu Jaunty
<slangasek> ok
<rickspencer3> hth
<slangasek> yes, thanks
<slangasek> let's move on then
<slangasek> davidm is on a call, so let's skip Mobile for now
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team
<slangasek> pgraner: hi
<pgraner> slangasek: hello
<pgraner> slangasek: We are on track for all of the specs and other action items
<pgraner> slangasek: our big deliverables are improved suspend and resume, ext4 integration, kernel crashdumps and kernel oops reporting...
<pgraner> slangasek: as stated all are exactly where they should be for this point in the cycle
<slangasek> pgraner: great!  what are the other action items as you see them? :)  I put the bugs in the agenda that are on my radar, but I know your team normally works from ogasawara's list
<slangasek> e.g., is bug #317781 getting investigation?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 317781 in linux "Ext4 data loss" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/317781
<pgraner> slangasek: starting on A5 we move to working strictly off the milestoned bug list, so if people need things looked at or fixed thats our list
<pgraner> slangasek: yes it is... there is not a fix upstream yet. They think its a combo of some ext4 default settings and destop lib (kde noted by name) holding a ton of files open at run time
<slangasek> mm, generally speaking that's not advisable because the milestoned list for the alphas will be rather thin, as it's intended to consist of only those bugs that are blockers for the milestone
<ScottK> Is the libdrm header issue and the ports versioning problem on the list?
<slangasek> pgraner: can you make sure that     *
<slangasek>       https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+bugs
<pgraner> slangasek: we are adding all the bugs there so we have one place to look at. currently looking across multiple lists causes bug loss for us as witnessed by Intrepid
<slangasek> is also being tracked generally?
<pgraner> ScottK: it is
<ScottK> Great, because that's blocking a lot of stuff.
<pgraner> slangasek: I will start looking at it and adding them to the milestone bugs if not we don't have a deadline to try and get answers/fixes
<slangasek> pgraner: ideally, the alpha-* milestoned bugs will get knocked out early and then you can draw on the jaunty pool - that way the hard bugs that don't block the alphas don't get left until right before RC
<pgraner> slangasek: one would think
<slangasek> pgraner: ok, I think we should discuss this further afterwards
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek and pgraner to discuss kernel team milestoning/workflow
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek and pgraner to discuss kernel team milestoning/workflow
<pgraner> slangasek: I'm trying to get it so that I know what will land when and if not people know aobut it
<pgraner> slangasek: we can talk next week
<slangasek> ok
<pgraner> slangasek: your buying the beer :-)
<slangasek> :-)
<slangasek> one other action item for the coming week, that we discussed previously
<slangasek> [ACTION] pgraner to provide a "kernel to userspace" communique describing relevant userspace-affecting changes for this cycle
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pgraner to provide a "kernel to userspace" communique describing relevant userspace-affecting changes for this cycle
<slangasek> delegate as needed, of course :)
<pgraner> slangasek: of course :-)
<slangasek> anything else to cover, or shall we move on?
<pgraner> slangasek: I'm good
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile team
<slangasek> davidm: hi
<davidm> hi
<lool> hey, I'm still here actually
<slangasek> lool: hi as well, if you have more to add
<slangasek> :)
<lool> (I thought I wouldn't make it)
<davidm> Ah lool take it away
<lool> So hmm I'll just repeat what I sent to slangasek via email; overview of what we work on for A4:
<lool>  - general focus on armel and UNR
<lool>  - target of getting at least an installable armel image, versatile
<lool>  - lots of UNR churn lately as OEM sent some drops and filed a bunch of
<lool>    bugs
<lool> slangasek brought up https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/303232 which is on the radar already, but will be discussed at the sprint
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 303232 in gcc-4.3 "armel gcc default optimisations" [High,Confirmed]
<lool> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/299847 was new to me, and is actually board specific
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 299847 in libipc-sharelite-perl "armel build failure (without ignoring testsuite results)" [High,Triaged]
<lool> We woudl need the porter marvell board to diagnose further I'm afraid
<cjwatson> we have rimu now
<lool> We do? great
<cjwatson> Adam brought it up last night
<davidm> lool, porter up as of last night
<lool> Concerning specs status, some are done while others are not started, so it's a mixed bag; I don't think we should look at them into too much details right now
<slangasek> lool: shall I give you an action to follow up on the marvell issue?
<lool> The biggest risk for A4 from us is that we lack resources to test all flavours
<lool> slangasek: If you think its still release critical sure; I had actually in mind to drop its severity
<slangasek> [ACTION] lool to follow up on bug #299847 on rimu to assess its scope & severity
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to follow up on bug #299847 on rimu to assess its scope & severity
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 299847 in libipc-sharelite-perl "armel build failure (without ignoring testsuite results)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/299847
<lool> Finally, my biggest concern is on whether we will have the time to do testing of all flavours and whether they will be in good shape after the recent churn
<slangasek> lool: what are the set of flavors that are relevant for A4?
<lool> MID, UNR, and armel/versatile/d-i are the ones we will test
<lool> slangasek: Perhaps we should list some d-i armel images in the tracker
<cjwatson> we'll need to get the last added to iso.qa
<cjwatson> snap
<lool> hehe
<lool> I think that's all I ahd
<lool> There's a kernel upload pending for us
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to ask armel/versatile/d-i to be added to ISO tracker
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to ask armel/versatile/d-i to be added to ISO tracker
<lool> cjwatson grabbed it already
<cjwatson> s/pending/in the queue/
<cjwatson> d-i needed a rebuild anyway, so I'll do that Monday at the latest
<slangasek> lool: how testable are MID and UNR by people on random non-mobile hardware; are there instructions linked from the ISO tracker that explain what needs tested?
<cjwatson> versatile is testable in qemu (I know you didn't ask, so you may already know this, but just for the record)
<lool> slangasek: MID is easy to test
<lool> slangasek: it can be tested in qemu
<lool> lvm etc.
<lool> *kvm
<ogra> unr needs composite
<lool> slangasek: UNR requires GL though
<lool> So it might be something we could do with vbox in the future, but right now it requires hardware
<slangasek> is there a test case description at least for MID on the ISO tracker?
<lool> We will have at least one or two netbooks which we will probably use for testing
<slangasek> and if not, would now be a good time for someone to write one, so that the community can help with MID testing for A4?
<lool> I don't remember; MID is already in the tracker though
<davidm> eee PC 700 -900 -1000 Acer Aspire One and Samsung NC10
<davmor2> slangasek: I have an AAO to test on
<slangasek> lool: yes - but currently the community testers punt on it and expect the Mobile team to do their own testing :)  If we're to change that, we need documentation
<lool> slangasek: I guess we could write that; however in general we're trying to keep MID in decent shape while spending most of our efforts on the other flavours
<davidm> That will be the hardware for UNR, PO issued for same
<lool> slangasek: Ok; give us an action and I'll either document or delegate that  :-)
<ogra> Q1U is fine for unr testing as well btw
<slangasek> [ACTION] lool, davidm to provide MID test case documentation for the ISO tracker
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool, davidm to provide MID test case documentation for the ISO tracker
<slangasek> anything else?
<lool> Nope
<lool> slangasek: err action to add armel to tracker
<lool> Or I missed it
<slangasek> I actioned myself for that
<lool> ah no it's there, sorry
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team
<cjwatson> ok, quick summary of bugs from the agenda:
<cjwatson> 44194: this bug is a bit of a disaster area due to several people taking confrontational stances; I suggest that those of us at the sprint assess it calmly, taking into account the views raised in the bug
<cjwatson> 59695: I believe the remaining part (pm-utils) is slangasek's, and is reasonably well-understood
<cjwatson> 272314: fixed
<cjwatson> 309215: slangasek already targeted to alpha-6, which I think is reasonable
<cjwatson> 311228: fix committed
<cjwatson> 317068: I believe evand is well in progress on this one; worst case we'll fix it on Monday at the sprint
<cjwatson> also, I've been looking into the oem-config Kubuntu bug from the desktop section, but haven't got far enough to venture a cause yet (largely due to fat-fingering and test-installing Ubuntu by mistake)
<cjwatson> however, I did run into bug 303515 in the process
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 303515 in pam "passwd indicates password updated although it wasn't" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/303515
<cjwatson> I'm somewhat concerned that that was previously triaged to Low importance and largely ignored
<cjwatson> (it was on shadow up to now, I think it's actually pam though)
<slangasek> I think that's a dupe of another bug that was already reported against pam
<slangasek> which wasn't marked 'low', but takes a massive surgery on libpam to fix
<cjwatson> I looked and couldn't fine it
<cjwatson> find
<cjwatson> oh, bug 198730?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 198730 in pam "a "new password" failure in a requisite PAM module does not prevent setting that password" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/198730
<slangasek> I don't think so
<cjwatson> no, maybe not
<slangasek> the problem is the PAM stack returning the wrong error code and passwd printing a confusing message
<slangasek> we can discuss that after the meeting in more depth?
<cjwatson> wrong error code, namely PAM_SUCCESS? :-)
<slangasek> yes
<cjwatson> happy to, it seems to be a regression versus Debian unless I miss my guess, I assume due to the new PAM configuration layout
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek and cjwatson to discuss/brainstorm on bug #303515
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek and cjwatson to discuss/brainstorm on bug #303515
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 303515 in pam "passwd indicates password updated although it wasn't" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/303515
<cjwatson> ok
<slangasek> are there any other bugs that ought to be escalated for Foundations that we haven't yet?
<cjwatson> I'm paying attention to qa-jaunty-foundations as well as a general rule
<cjwatson> I don't *think* there are any that badly need escalation there, but will check
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> regarding specs, Robbie is more up-to-date than I am; we are behind on spec writing/review though, and trying to catch up
<slangasek> 44194> fwiw, I was thinking to fix this by just moving the stuff to /lib and be done with it :)
<cjwatson> yes, although that's hairy with regard to state directories
<cjwatson> if /usr is separate, /var may well be too
<slangasek> yes, I'm planning to finish all my spec drafting today... :)
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> I gathered, though, that the problem was not merely that /usr was unmounted, but also that filesystems were potentially not yet writable
 * robbiew was just about to "remind" slangasek
<cjwatson> but I only saw this bug for the first time today
<slangasek> cjwatson: I think there are provisions for early write to /var with bind mount twiddling; we can diagnose further after the meeting tho
<cjwatson> I'm running out of time in my day and lots to do still, so if "after the meeting" is "in Berlin", that's great
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> robbiew: anything you want to add about individual specs, or should we move on?
<robbiew> nope...move on
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team
<slangasek> zul: hi
<zul> hey
<cjwatson> I've run into several problems with LVM/RAID/encryption that indicate possible testing weaknesses or failure to escalate bugs, so we probably need to make a concerted effort there
<cjwatson> (sorry, didn't mean to overflow our slot, lag)
<slangasek> noted
<zul> nothing to really report on our side we continue to reduce the size of the seeds so that the cloud computing stuff can fit on there
<slangasek> zul: I managed to find a pair of bugs that fall in the server team's domain, posted to the agenda - which is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-01-30 if you don't have it
<zul> checking
<slangasek> bug #305264 needs a judgement call from the server team (either generally, or from the security guys)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 305264 in openldap "gnutls regression: failure in certificate chain validation" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/305264
<zul> ok ill nudge the security team to look at it, and ill upload the nmap one today
<slangasek> ok, great
<slangasek> anything else you want to cover, or shall we keep going so we can get out of here early? :)
<zul> keep on going :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> ScottK: hi
<ScottK> Hello
<ScottK> A couple of areas worth mentioning here I think.
<ScottK> There is an ongoing discussion about Java packaging that feels a lot like the precursors to the Ruby Gems fiasco we had last cycle.
<ScottK> I think we are a long way from consensus on it and I would really hope we avoid premature uploads.
 * slangasek nods
<ScottK> The only other significant issue is we got pushed into a ghc6 transition by accident.
<slangasek> hmm, was the 'accident' before or after the round of ghc6 sync requests?
<ScottK> Someone didn't understand how those packages relate to each other and so they are going to have to be rebuilt.
<ScottK> It was before, I'm pretty sure.
<ScottK> It's in progress now.
<slangasek> ok
<ScottK> I doubt it'll be done by feature freeze, but I don't think it'll be an issue in the end.
<cjwatson> the accident was before
<slangasek> ScottK: something we should revisit the status on next meeting?
<cjwatson> I had thought those sync requests cleaned up most of it, actually
<ScottK> We're going to have our initial team meeting next week and so after that I should have more to say.
<slangasek> "initial team meeting" - for which team?
<ScottK> motu-release
<slangasek> MOTU release?
<slangasek> ok
<ScottK> Initial for this cycle.
<ScottK> We'll have 3 returning and one or two new people.
<ScottK> I'll see what i can do about getting a status on ghc6 for the next meeting.
<slangasek> [ACTION] ScottK to report back on the status of ghc6 transition
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK to report back on the status of ghc6 transition
<ScottK> That's all I have unless anyone else has something.
<slangasek> good to hear that motu-release is still healthy, both with ongoing committments and new blood :)
<slangasek> thanks for the report
<slangasek> [TOPIC] General feature update
<MootBot> New Topic:  General feature update
<slangasek> everything here /should/ already be covered by the per-team reports, but if this jogs anyone's memory...
<ScottK> We landed KDE 4.2.0 in Kubuntu Jaunty on release day.
<pitti> congrats!
<ScottK> That didn't get mentioned so far...
<rickspencer3> yeah!
<pitti> what's the response so far?
<slangasek> yay :)
<ScottK> Very positive.
<pitti> a big "ooooh, so much better than 4.1!!!1!"?
<ScottK> Yeah.
<Riddell> planet gnome was impressed :)
<ScottK> More like "This is the KDE4 I've been waiting for"
<rickspencer3> great news
<slangasek> ScottK: oh, on the subject of Kubuntu, is bug #289907 on the radar of anyone who has upload rights?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289907 in qt4-x11 "Event handler drops some events when rate of incoming events is high" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289907
<cjwatson> several installer bits and pieces (oem-config-server, server-pre-installation) likely to be landing piecemeal over the next couple of weeks
<ScottK> We've also got Intrepid packages in a PPA to get wider exposure.
<cjwatson> manual package selection in the server installer is a big one there, assuming that I actually manage to get it working
 * ScottK looks at Riddell for the qt4 bug?
<Riddell> I can take a look at that
<slangasek> [ACTION] Riddell to follow up on bug #289907
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell to follow up on bug #289907
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289907 in qt4-x11 "Event handler drops some events when rate of incoming events is high" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289907
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Known regressions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Known regressions
<slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=regression-potential
<slangasek> [LINK] http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/jaunty/alpha3#Known%20issues
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/jaunty/alpha3#Known%20issues
<cjwatson> the IPv6 one is something I've been trying to puzzle out
<cjwatson> bug 313218
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 313218 in linux "IPV6 causes slow internet access" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/313218
<slangasek> I triaged the bugs from both of these sources before the meeting and doled the highest-priority ones out to teams, so this is mostly a PSA for them
<cjwatson> I am not convinced that 313218 is a kernel bug, since glibc is supposed to deal with this situation
<slangasek> (a bunch of the bugs on there need to be retagged as regression-release now for 8.10...)
<slangasek> fyi, we've had pretty good turnaround too on the errataed bugs from alpha3, with just one or two that haven't been fixed plus the expected binary driver stragglers
<sbeattie> slangasek: I'll do the retagging
<slangasek> cjwatson: do you want to take an action on that one?
<slangasek> [ACTION] sbeattie to clean up regression-proposed tags on bugs present in intrepid
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sbeattie to clean up regression-proposed tags on bugs present in intrepid
<cjwatson> yeah, why not
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to follow up on bug #313218
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to follow up on bug #313218
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 313218 in linux "IPV6 causes slow internet access" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/313218
<ScottK> One thing I think worth mentioning wrt known issues is Kmail/Akonadi and Amarok are now co-installable again.  Thanks to the Server Team for working with Kubuntu on repackaging Mysql 5.0/5.1 to make them co-installable and minimize desktop footprint.
 * pitti sobs
 * rickspencer3 pats pitti's shoulder
<slangasek> ah, congrats to server team and the kubuntu folks there
<pitti> "minimize desktop footprint" is such an euphemism here... :-(
 * ScottK hands pitti a tissue.
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Hardware testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware testing
<slangasek> including here for completeness, but I don't think there's anything to report yet
<slangasek> (nor do we have heno here to do the reporting)
<cjwatson> pitti: gconf/gettext, right? :-)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] ISO size
<MootBot> New Topic:  ISO size
<pitti> cjwatson: already told slangasek about that gem :)
<slangasek> I'm gratified to see that the latest OOo upload did *not* push Ubuntu CDs oversize :-)
<slangasek> unfortunately, we've managed to push the *DVD* oversized at some point!
<pitti> I'm also in conversation with Celso about shipping the NGOME help in langpacks
<slangasek> so if anyone knows of things that should just plain be tossed out of main... nominate them loudly :)
<pitti> if we are very lucky, the new custom upload format for that can be implemented quickly in Soyuz
<pitti> but I wouldn't hold my breath for that for Jaunty
<slangasek> [AOB]
<slangasek> anything else we've missed?
<slangasek> assuming there'll be plenty of other opportunities still for one-on-one conversations :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:18.
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<pitti> thanks everyone
<rickspencer3> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-01-31
<Hobbsee> slangasek: at 2am local time?  No, sorry :)
<slangasek> ack. :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-02-01
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<leoquant> 1 7       21 35      35       21       7 1
<leoquant> oops...
<mc44> thanks, Pascal
<leoquant> sorry a spasm...
<leoquant> mc44 pascal indeed
<MTecknology> ya, switching sleep schedules by an entire 12hr....
<MTecknology> definitely screws with me. I wonder if that's why I'm so irritable.
<MTecknology> When I get to finding a job where I expect to stay for a while, I'll need to make sure it'll be standard hours.
<MTecknology> I'd get some sleep now if it weren't for the ass holes above me - dorms suck
<MTecknology> ya... this was the wrong channel to spew that is... sorry
<ScottK> MTecknology: That's twice in ~18 hours.  You might want to consider how you keep track of what channel you're on ...
<MTecknology> ScottK: I just switched order of channels. I won't do it again ;)
<MTecknology> Just curious, why is the topic open to all to edit?
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-02-02
 * persia peers about
 * persia reads https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-mobile/2010-February/002655.html and goes to fiddle with REVU instead
<MenZa> heh
 * xnox is testing connection
<ian_brasil> ah ..no meeting today
<rbelem> :'(
 * MenZa hands coffee all around to substitute the meeting.
 * ian_brasil should actually *read* mails to the mobile list
 * persia too, and in a timely manner :)
<vish> persia: hi.. when is the next asia regional board meeting?
<BlackZ> vish, read here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
 * persia thanks BlackZ 
<BlackZ> persia, :D
<vish> BlackZ: i already saw that , but the date is an old one ;)
<vish> "The next meeting is scheduled for 26-Jan-2010, 10:00 UTC  "
<BlackZ> hmm
<persia> Right.  I'll sort that.
 * vish thanks persia :)
<BlackZ> yes, it was a mistake ;)
<persia> OK.  Fixed.
<BlackZ> vish, good luck
<vish> thanks :)
<BlackZ> ;)
 * persia peers about
<statik> hello
 * coolbhavi lifts his both hands and says present sir
 * geser waves
 * mok0 is here
 * ScottK consults the coffee pot for motivation.
 * MenZa slides ScottK some fresh coffee, noting the coffee pot has been sitting for a few hours.
<cjwatson> hello
<pitti> hello
<soren> o/
 * stgraber waves
<cjwatson> right!  who's chairing this one?
<dholbach> hi
 * persia can
<cjwatson> I vaguely recall that each of us from the previous board volunteered assuming that we got in, and I seem to be the only one ;-)
<cjwatson> but I don't mind
<pitti> cjwatson: o/
<persia> OK :)
<cjwatson> pitti: sorry, meant the only one still on the board :)
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:02. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Action review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action review
<cjwatson> well, first off, welcome to the new board :-)
<cjwatson> we have a couple of carried-over actions
<cjwatson> the election is obviously done ...
<cjwatson> * persia to ask CC to make DMB an admin of ~universe-contributors, as part of the DMB/MC merge
<persia> CC still hasn't completed this.  I'll prod them again.
<cjwatson> nixternal: are you here, BTW?
<dholbach> persia: I'll have a look at it later on
<persia> dholbach: Great.
<cjwatson> no cody-somerville either
<ScottK> A related issue, but maybe OT for this meeting is currently the motu-release team does not have any administrators
<xnox> hhello sorry I'm late
<dholbach> persia: maybe just remind me quick - I'm not awake yet ;)
<cjwatson> ScottK: eek.  though wasn't it due to be merged into ubuntu-release at some point?
<ScottK> cjwatson: It is.
<persia> Note that while we can hear xnox's application, as a result, we can't act on it today.
<ScottK> In the meantime it ought to have some admin.
<persia> dholbach: DMB to be admin of ~universe-contributors.  Approved by vote in a CC meeting, pending election completion.
<dholbach> Will the release team merge be discussed in the release team meeting on Friday?
<cjwatson> ScottK: I've made ubuntu-release an admin.
<ScottK> cjwatson: Thanks
<ScottK> dholbach: No meeting this Friday
<cjwatson> persia: how come?  we have 5/7
<dholbach> ScottK: ah ok
<ScottK> It's not controversial though, just a matter of agreeing and doing it.
<persia> cjwatson: We just don't currently have authority to do anything (although as above, dholbach may be able to sort that shortly)
<cjwatson> persia: oh.  I can act on it.
<cjwatson> I think.
<persia> Needs CC, I thought.
 * cjwatson looks
<dholbach> persia: let me do it now
<persia> But if it's TB, that would be nice.
<persia> dholbach: Thanks.
<cjwatson> s
<cjwatson> persia: universe-contributors is administered by motu-council which is administered by techboard
<geser> wasn't u-u-c delegated to the MC by the CC?
<persia> cjwatson: Odd, but OK.  It seems like it ought be a CC thing, since it's about membership.
<persia> geser: It was, which is why I don't understand the current model.
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] MOTU direction (ScottK, cjwatson)
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU direction (ScottK, cjwatson)
<dholbach> persia: as member of CC I can't change owner.
<ScottK> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/LucidMOTU
<cjwatson> we did some drafting work on this yesterday, and had some discussion
<ScottK> Thanks to persia for doing most of the drafting work (almost all).
<cjwatson> there's a bit of discussion yet to be had on the role of motu-council, which I believe is going to be brought up on relevant mailing lists - but I'd like not to block on it
<ScottK> I think as a starting place for that discussion what's in the spec makes sense.
<cjwatson> I'd like it if DMB members could look this over and confirm whether or not they're happy
<persia> I'd like to suggest that discussion on MOTU Council be separated from discussion on MOTU.  It only makes sense to discuss MC if there is MOTU, and if so, MOTU, as then defined, is likely to have opinions beyond ours.
<cjwatson> I realise that this was slightly short notice so if people aren't prepared then we can do it by mail
<persia> I'm happy with it, aside from current (separate) confusions regarding the nature of delegation to delegated teams.
<persia> But I don't think that the future of MOTU needs to block on that discussion, and would expect all docs to come in line by separate means.
<cjwatson> soren,geser,stgraber,nixternal: do you guys want to discuss this in-band now, or out-of-band by mail?
<soren> I was really hoping to get this done today, so I'm reading through it now.
<ScottK> Yes.  Please.
<geser> If I have time to read it now, then we can do it today
<cjwatson> as long as we leave enough time for the applications :-)
 * cjwatson gets coffee ..
<stgraber> I'm reading through it now
<soren> persia: While I agree that the discussion about MOTU council should be separate, I don't see how that will really make sense when the proposal specifically talks about how the MC will fit into this new world order.
<cjwatson> we could mark the parts about the MC as pending somehow
<persia> Marking them as pending makes sense to me.  I just think that future-of-MOTU and future-of-MC are separable discussions in some ways, and would rather focus on a good defintion for MOTU, if we are to keep it.
<cjwatson> ScottK brought up yesterday that the MC is elected by MOTU and thus MOTU as a whole really ought to have a say in that (and what persia said above concurs, if I'm understanding correctly)
<soren> I agree.
<persia> cjwatson: You are understanding correctly
<ScottK> Personally, I don't see the sense in saying we want to have a group with no governance, but OK.
<soren> ScottK: I don't think anyone is saying that.
<soren> The point is that the decision about the future of the MC is a separate discussion, and one that should be taken by MOTU.
<ScottK> Fair enough.
<ScottK> If the decision is that the stuff in the spec is draft and it's delegated to MOTU as a whole to decide it, I'm good with that.
<cjwatson> (I'll call time on this at :30 if we aren't done before then, to allow sufficient time for the three applications)
 * xnox is back
<persia> ScottK: draft for just the (pending) MC bits?
<ScottK> persia: Yes.
<ScottK> stuff in the spec .... about mc ....
<persia> heh.  Yes.
<geser> do I read the current spec/draft correctly that the DMB will handle MOTU (and UUC) applications or is that to be discussed first?
<ScottK> That's what's in the current spec.
<cjwatson> so I had thought this was obvious based on the way we just did the DMB election, but I've had the impression not everyone shares this
<pitti> as a small nit, "multiverse" should also be allowed in the Upload Permissions paragraph
<ScottK> I think that it would be part of the future discussion about if there is an MC, what powers the DMB might choose to delegate to it.
<cjwatson> pitti: agreed, I'll edit
<persia> pitti: Yes.
<cjwatson> I think this is the TB's power to delegate (but apparently this too is unclear ...)
<cjwatson> (and if we get everyone to agree on the relevant delegation it may end up not mattering)
<persia> geser: Based on the contents of the 22 Dec DMB meeting, the DMB would certainly be hearing applications for Contributing Developers, regardless of any MC role.
<ScottK> We have 5 minutes left.
<ScottK> Can we get some agreement on if MOTU continues to exist?
<persia> cjwatson: Yes.  That's the delegation confusions I mentioned earlier, but that's surely completely separable, and we can clean that up when entirely resolved.
<cjwatson> persia: yes
 * cjwatson at least has no appetite for deleting MOTU
<cjwatson> and I don't see how that would be a useful thing to do
<mok0> In the section Identity Communication, there is a discussion about developer teams. Is it correct to assume that every developer MUST be a member of at least ONE team=
<mok0> ?
<pitti> that's true already on a very basic technical level
<ScottK> I think that's what defines the term.
<persia> I'd be happy to continue MOTU, so long as it is redefined based on some set of goals, rather than just "deal with universe/multiverse".
<pitti> since LP works in terms of teams
<ScottK> persia: Does the current spec satisfy that requirement in your opinion?
<persia> ScottK: Yes.
<stgraber> That spec makes a lot of sense for me and I'm fine with it, with the exception of the MC bit as discussed above which should be a separate discussion
 * ScottK notes we are down to one minute and would really like this voted and done.
<persia> mok0: There exist some people who are bare members of ~ubuntu-dev for various reasons, but teams are generally preferred.
<mok0> OK yes
<cjwatson> [VOTE] approve community-lucid-motu other than pending motu-council sections
<MootBot> Please vote on:  approve community-lucid-motu other than pending motu-council sections.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<geser> does the MC discussion also include "developer approvals" (from the Preserved Functions)?
<persia> geser: Yes, combined with some TB/DMB role defintion stuff.
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<geser> who is responsible till the future of MC is clear?
<cjwatson> does anyone in practice object to the DMB doing this?
<ScottK> For developer approvals is DMB
<mok0> Discussion about MC should start right after this decision is made
<persia> I'd say it reverts to the appropriate groups delegating to the MC (CC, TB, DMB), depending on the nature of the item the MC would have done.
<persia> mok0: Yes.
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<mok0> I'd vote plus one if I could :)
<persia> Who wants the action to trigger the MC discussion?
<cjwatson> OK, excellent.  We'll bring this up at the TB meeting next week as well just to make sure all the is are dotted and such
<ScottK> I'll take it.
<persia> ScottK: Thanks.
<persia> (pending TB confirmation)
<mok0> May I suggest that the acronym MOTU be said to mean "Masters of the Unknown" until further notice?
<geser> :)
<ScottK> cjwatson: Would you please make an action for me.
<highvoltage> rofl
<mok0> It sounds cool and I'd like to be one :)
<cjwatson> [ACTION] ScottK to trigger MC discussion
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ScottK to trigger MC discussion
<ScottK> Thanks.
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Per-package uploader: Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode
<MootBot> New Topic:  Per-package uploader: Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode
<persia> Um, not yet.
<cjwatson> what did I miss?
<cjwatson> oh
<persia> Application Process.
<cjwatson> bah
<persia> (without which we can't possibly approve anyting :) )
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Approval of the application process for new applications
<MootBot> New Topic:  Approval of the application process for new applications
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
<cjwatson> can we move straight to a vote on this?  it seems quite simple
<persia> That page was basically cribbed from the MC process and language changed.
<cjwatson> [VOTE] ratify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess
<MootBot> Please vote on:  ratify https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cjwatson> +1
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<soren> Yay.
<cjwatson> right, duly constituted and able to conduct business? :-)
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Per-package uploader: Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode
<MootBot> New Topic:  Per-package uploader: Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode
<persia> Excellent.  Might I propose that we waive any minor variations from this procedure for today's applicants?
<cjwatson> agreed
<cjwatson> Martin-Eric isn't here, but this application has been on the table for a very long time
<pitti> there also was a beginning email vote from the old board, but it timed out
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinEricRacine FTR
<geser> this is only about PPU for xserver-xorg-video-geode, right? as the applications also mentions cups-pdf
<pitti> he applied for both
<cjwatson> geser: Martin-Eric is already able to upload cups-pdf by virtue of motu membership
<geser> ah
<cjwatson> well, except in hardy, but that would go through SRU anyway
<persia> That's probably my mistake, as I added the item to the agenda based on a mail I received, rather than by following any particular process.
<cjwatson> I have no issues with this application; looking at the changelog, he seems to be the package's only maintainer in practice anyway, and there's an endorsement here from one of our X team
<pitti> I have sponsored his packages to D/U for many years, no issue with them
<pitti> he has the hardware to test, and is eager to keep it working with all U releases
<cjwatson> Bryce's comment has a bit of a hint about SRU handling in it, but that's the SRU team's problem :-)
<persia> Shall we move to vote, in the interest of hearing other applicants?
<stgraber> I'm also very familiar with his work on Geode GX2 for LTSP, I've been one of his beta-tester for a while as we are quite few with the hardware ;)
<soren> I'm happy to vote now.
<cjwatson> [VOTE] approve Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode upload
<MootBot> Please vote on:  approve Martin-Eric Racine for xserver-xorg-video-geode upload.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cjwatson> (apologies for persistently mangling his name, BTW, this connection is slow enough without having to try to enter UTF-8 as well)
<cjwatson> +1
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<cjwatson> I'll implement that as soon as the meeting is done, then
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] DmitrijsLedkovs for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
<MootBot> New Topic:  DmitrijsLedkovs for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
 * xnox 0/
<cjwatson> xnox: thanks for attending
 * xnox has a lecture right now, but it's ok =)
<cjwatson> anyone have any questions for xnox?
 * cjwatson guesses everyone is quickly reading the wiki :-)
<persia> xnox: A number of your endorsers mention that you need a bit more experience.  Are there specific actions you've planned to gain that?
<persia> heh :)
<xnox> persia: lately I've done more syncs / merges. And I'm planning to get involved with debian qa as well.
<xnox> I'm maintaining packaging in ~pkgcrosswire for debian and ubuntu and it does take quite a bit of time.
<persia> xnox: What differences are there in the packages that require continued maintenance in a PPA?  Alternately, what issues have you had getting these changes applied to the commonly distributed applications?
<xnox> dh 7 missing as well as package names changes - eg xulrunner-dev has a few names in hardy -> sid
<xnox> hence you have to rely on less automated packaging
<xnox> these issues were mostly sorted for ~pkgcrosswire by using cdbs & backporting debhelper. Not ideal imho.
<persia> Ah, so ~pkgcrosswire is mostly a backports repo?
<xnox> yes. sword & apps were out of date. The upstream approached mailing lists and asked to update them in debian & ubuntu
<xnox> we started with packaging and decided to offer ppa for everyone cause apps in the archive where 3 years old
<persia> Are they now up to date in lucid?
<xnox> They are up-to date in karmic and lucid
<xnox> and testing/squeeze
<xnox> we are in sync =)
<cjwatson> we're running low on time; any further questions before we move to a vote?
 * persia is done with questions, and ready to vote
<cjwatson> [VOTE] approve DmitrijsLedkovs for Ubuntu Contributing Developer
<MootBot> Please vote on:  approve DmitrijsLedkovs for Ubuntu Contributing Developer.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<cjwatson> xnox: thanks!
<persia> xnox: Welcome to the team.
 * xnox Ura =)))!!!
<xnox> thank you everyone
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] ElliotMurphy for MOTU and ubuntuone-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, erlang, couchdb, desktopcouch, evolution-couchdb, couchdb-glib, libubuntuone (not yet in the archive), python-configglue, rabbitmq-server
<MootBot> New Topic:  ElliotMurphy for MOTU and ubuntuone-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, erlang, couchdb, desktopcouch, evolution-couchdb, couchdb-glib, libubuntuone (not yet in the archive), python-configglue, rabbitmq-server
<cjwatson> (phew)
<cjwatson> anyone mind if we overrun by a few minutes?
<statik> hello
<geser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ElliotMurphy/DeveloperApplication for the application page
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ElliotMurphy/DeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ElliotMurphy/DeveloperApplication
<statik> there is a thread between persia and I, it looks like my mail to the devel-permissions list didn't make it through moderation: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2010-January/002370.html
 * ScottK has seen statik participating in #debian-python and getting stuff into Debian.  +1 for that.
<persia> I'd like to break this application up into chunks, if we could, as I'm certain I can't give +1 or -1 on the entirely.
<persia> s/entirely/entirety/
<statik> thats fine with me
<statik> persia: i assume it's about evolution-couchdb/couchdb-glib upload rights, since I haven't uploaded those before. i'm preparing the next uploads for those packages in lucid right now (and converting to format 3.0 (quilt) at the same time)
<statik> so i totally understand separating those out to a later time
<persia> statik: That's part of it.  For those, I'd much rather see a PPU application from the person actually maintaining them :)
<cjwatson> persia: any particular chunks you'd prefer?
<cjwatson> I'm having a little bit of trouble looking through all statik's material in time, which is normally a good sign :-)
<persia> cjwatson: MOTU, PPU for evolution-couchdb/couchdb-glib, PPU for ubuntu-one-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, erlang.  I don't know where to put couchdb and desktopcouch, but either of the PPU categories would be fine.  I'd like to ignore libubuntuone for now.
<cjwatson> couchdb and desktopcouch seem to be fairly established things strongly linked to u1
<statik> yes. i'm also co-maintaining couchdb in debian-erlang, and working to get the changes we made in ubuntu back up to debian
<cjwatson> and Elliot's been involved in their maintenance, though also CHad
<persia> I'm good with couchdb and desktopcouch falling into the ubuntuone-client/erlang category.
<cjwatson> is there any appetite for an ubuntu-erlang team at the moment?
<statik> it's something that I haven't thought too much about - the debian one is almost dead and only has one uploader
<statik> i certainly care a lot about erlang in ubuntu
<statik> but haven't figured out what it would take to start a team
<cjwatson> enthusiasm and organisation, mostly :-)
<statik> I had one other person join me with working on making the erlang history available in bzr, but thats fizzled now that the ericsson erlang team has started publishing from clearcase into github
<cjwatson> :-(
<statik> this is a win for erlang, and i think there's some things i can do with the git importers to make it also useful on launchpad
<cjwatson> mm, I guess so
<statik> yeah, daily snapshots are so much nicer than only getting tarballs flung over the fence
<statik> we've seen bugs being caught and fixed in the daily snapshots already
<cjwatson> any further questions before we move on with a vote on ... let's say MOTU first?
<cjwatson> [VOTE] approve ElliotMurphy for MOTU
<MootBot> Please vote on:  approve ElliotMurphy for MOTU.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<persia> +0 : I like to see a broader sweep for MOTU, but all the code changes I reviewed looked excellent.
<MootBot> Abstention received from persia. 0 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 0
<iaculallad> Had the meeting for Ubuntu membership (EMEA) started already?
<persia> iaculallad: No.
<iaculallad> what time would it start?
<iaculallad> @ persia: What time would it start?
<persia> iaculallad: I don't know, but we're in the middle of another meeting just now.
<soren> +1 (I actually thought statik was MOTU already)
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<stgraber> iaculallad: in 4 hours
<geser> +0: I'd like to see some more sponsored uploads to be able to better judge the packaging skills
<cjwatson> +1 : broader sweep granted, but I like Elliot's style so far and I don't anticipate problems
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from stgraber. 2 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 2
<iaculallad> stgraber: That's for the EMEA region right?
<stgraber> I'd also like seeing more sponsored uploads
<cjwatson> geser: I think you need an extra space there for MootBot to take it
<geser> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 0 against. 3 abstained. Total: 2
<cjwatson> uh, is that a pass or not?  vote lawyers? :-)
<mok0> That would be a pass
<persia> There weren't any objections, but the voting parties weren't quorate.  Maybe send an email asking for our missing members to chime in, and if none object, let the motion pass?
<cjwatson> [ACTION] cjwatson to ask nixternal and cody-somerville for votes on statik/MOTU by mail
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to ask nixternal and cody-somerville for votes on statik/MOTU by mail
<cjwatson> [VOTE] approve ElliotMurphy for ubuntuone-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, erlang, couchdb, desktopcouch, python-configglue, rabbitmq-server upload
<MootBot> Please vote on:  approve ElliotMurphy for ubuntuone-client, ubuntuone-storage-protocol, erlang, couchdb, desktopcouch, python-configglue, rabbitmq-server upload.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 * statik holds his breath
<cjwatson> I bundled python-configglue and rabbitmq-server there, didn't see a reason not to
<persia> +1 : statik has a good history of work on these packages, and sufficient time to spend to make sure they are in great shape.
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1 on this with more confidence, if Elliot shouldn't upload these I'm not sure who should. :-)
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<persia> The bundling makes sense.  They have the same sort of history.
<soren> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from soren. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 5 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 5
<cjwatson> shall we postpone evolution-couchdb/couchdb-glib for the moment, as discussed earlier?
<persia> Postpone?  I'm happy to vote on them, I just wanted them separate.
<cjwatson> oh, I misunderstood
 * soren is also happy to vote now
<cjwatson> [VOTE] approve ElliotMurphy for evolution-couchdb, couchdb-glib upload
<MootBot> Please vote on:  approve ElliotMurphy for evolution-couchdb, couchdb-glib upload.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<persia> -1 : Don't apply for PPU to sponsor someone else's work, get Rodrigo to apply.
<MootBot> -1 received from persia. 0 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now -1
<cjwatson> +0 - would prefer an upload first
<MootBot> Abstention received from cjwatson. 0 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now -1
<cjwatson> (although I don't actually expect a *problem*)
<soren> +0 (same reasoning as cjwatson)
<MootBot> Abstention received from soren. 0 for, 1 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now -1
<geser> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from geser. 0 for, 1 against. 3 have abstained. Count is now -1
<stgraber> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from stgraber. 0 for, 1 against. 4 have abstained. Count is now -1
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 0 for, 1 against. 4 abstained. Total: -1
<persia> OK.  That can't pass, even with the other votes.
<cjwatson> statik: OK - sorry this was a bit complicated, but at least there is no doubt on seven packages
<cjwatson> I will implement that after the meeting
<statik> i'm happy to reapply for this later, i think it makes sense. persia, just to be clear i'm not applying to sponsor the packaging work that rodrigo does, i'm doing packaging work myself because rodrigo is busy doing the main dev work on those libraries (which i am code reviewing). i will definitely ask rodrigo to apply for PPU as well though
<statik> cjwatson, no problem. thanks everyone!
<persia> statik: OK.  That is different than I understood from https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/motu-council/2010-January/002371.html
<persia> statik: If you proceed with that, and are involved in the packaging for the next few, I'll change my mind quickly.
<cjwatson> statik: I think it will help if you prepare some uploads of these yourself
<statik> yeah, when you said that just know i realized the way i used 'sponsor' was ambiguous
<statik> absolutely, i'm working on those packages on my laptop today
<statik> whats the time frame to find out the results from the MOTU email vote?
<persia> statik: We'll tie them down at the next meeting if we haven't heard, but we can probably get answers this week.
<statik> excellent. thanks very much for staying late to consider my application
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<persia> (based on the common latencies of the individuals involved)
<cjwatson> over time, I hope nobody has anything :-)
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:28.
<pitti> thanks everyone
<coolbhavi> cjwatson, when ll cyphermox_ and my application be reviewed
<coolbhavi> ?
<xnox``> thank you all =)
<cjwatson> oh, I forgot to set the next chair, let's do that by mail
<cjwatson> coolbhavi: err, it was not on the agenda
<cjwatson> coolbhavi: could you send a reminder mail to developer-membership-board@lists.ubuntu.com, and we'll ensure that it's on the agenda for next time?
<persia> cjwatson: Thanks for chairing today.
<cyphermox_> coolbhavi, I'm waiting until there is a final decision for an MC or not or if the DMB will receive these applications, and apply then :)
<cjwatson> cyphermox_: if you have a pending application, please mail the DMB about it
<pitti> hello/close
<pitti> sorry
<cyphermox_> cjwatson, yes
<coolbhavi> cjwatson, nixternal said and I sent it already
<cjwatson> coolbhavi: OK, I apologise that it fell through the cracks; we'll make sure that doesn't happen again
<coolbhavi> cjwatson, I sent it on Jan 28th 2nd time out of luck ll come back next week...
<cjwatson> coolbhavi: apologies again
<coolbhavi> cjwatson, no mention
<cjwatson> I suspect I have some list admin to do
<coolbhavi> cjwatson, when should I be back?
<cyphermox_> coolbhavi, the next DMB meeting is in two weeks
<coolbhavi> cyphermox_, isnt the MC meeting next week?
<cyphermox_> coolbhavi, there is no MC meeting scheduled atm.
<coolbhavi> cyphermox_, so two weeks down i ll be back
<coolbhavi> hope 3rd time lucky :)
<cjwatson> coolbhavi: I don't see any mail from you to the DMB
<cjwatson> coolbhavi: did you sent it to motu-council?
<cjwatson> *send
<cyphermox_> cjwatson, it was sent to devel-permissions I believe
<cjwatson> ah yes
<coolbhavi> cjwatson, I sent it on jan 28th to devel-permissions as nixternal guided
<cjwatson> I will make sure it is on our agenda for Feb 16
 * cjwatson had better run and get ready for actual-work ...
<coolbhavi> cjwatson, okay thanks
<toabctl> hi
<czajkowski> Aloha
<qense> well hello
<czajkowski> no loco team meeting??
<qense> czajkowski: Shouldn't it have been an hour and 24 minutes ago?
<qense> that's what my Ubuntu Fridge calendar says.
<czajkowski> was tryong to work the calender mout
<czajkowski> out
<qense> maybe you've got a wrong locale setting in your browser?
<Seveas`> Long live neighbours with unsecured wifi \o/
<invernizzi> we all praise 3Com and Dlink!
<qense> WEP is also doable if there is nothing unsecure near.
<Seveas`> I prefer to stay legal
<Seveas`> (yes, using neighbours insecure wifi is legal here)
<qense> really?
<qense> Hasn't that law passed yet, or has it stranded in parliament?
<Seveas`> last I heard is that it's legal
<qense> Those owners deserve their internet to be stolen. ;)
<popey> it's illegal here in the uk too
<Seveas`>  neh they don't, they're nice people :)
<popey> hi btw :)
<Seveas`> they don't even mind
<Seveas`> heya
<Viper1432> I'd prefer to think of it as "donated"...after all if they don't lock it down, aren't they inviting others to share?  :-D
<qense> Just as those military officials sharing sensitive data with some P2P-like (Warez?) application...
<Viper1432> further proof of the maxim: ignorance is bliss.  ;)
<qense> Not when those people are responsible for the safety of a country.
<Viper1432> should have prefaced my comment with <sarcasm>.  lol
<Seveas`> forumsmatthew popey stgraber, time to get started
<forumsmatthew> I'm here
<popey> ola
 * stgraber waves
<popey> before we start
<popey> cc is currently voting on new member for emea rmb
<popey> will poke the cc and we should know shortly
<Seveas`> nice
<popey> thats all
<Seveas`> jaap__: you're up first
<forumsmatthew> great!
<Seveas`> please introduce yourself
<Seveas`> ok, no jaap__
<Seveas`> angelabad: you're up then :)
<angelabad> Seveas, hi!
<jaap__> Hi
<angelabad> ops, sorry!
<Seveas`> ah, jaap__ is there after all
<Seveas`> jaap__: please go ahead and introduce yourself to us
<jaap__> Yeah, I was just interrupted by a call
<jaap__> I'm jaap haitsma and live in the netherlands
<jaap__> I put on the wiki page my contribution to opensource and ubuntu
<jaap__> Can you tell me what you like to know more?
<Seveas`> jaap__: did you contribute to ubuntu directly?
<forumsmatthew> I'm confused. Your wiki page seems to show you have been a member since 2005-06-02. This is your page, right? https://launchpad.net/~jaap
<Seveas`> All your wikipage shows are contributions to gnome and a few smaller upstreams
<forumsmatthew> edit: launchpad page
<jaap__> Yes that's my page
<Seveas`> forumsmatthew: that doesn't show a membership of ubuntumembers
<forumsmatthew> according to that, you have been a member a month longer than me
<forumsmatthew> doh! need coffee
<forumsmatthew> sorry
<Seveas`> :)
<Philip5> "member since" on LP is just when you registered
<jaap__> I guess because I at least don't know that I'm an official ubuntu member
<Seveas`> jaap__: you're not :)
<Seveas`> jaap__: could you answer my question please?
<jaap__> So at least I'm in the right meeting :-)
<popey> 20:05:48 < Seveas`> jaap__: did you contribute to ubuntu directly?
<jaap__> Sorry missed that one. To ubuntu directly I contributed mostly with bug reports, testing, some translations to Frisian and on the forums
<jaap__> asking questions and answering some
<Seveas`> jaap__: then please list those contributions on your wikipage, including some testimonials
<Seveas`> As it stands, I'm -1. While I value your contributions to gnome and other upstreams greatly, Ubuntu membership is meant to be a recognition of contributions to Ubuntu itself, not its upstreams. Your wikipage shows no direct contributions, so I do not feel comfortable to give a +1.
<jaap__> OK
<forumsmatthew> agreed -1 for now. That could change with better documentation of work specific to Ubuntu and good testimonials
<popey> I agree. I'm seeing a lack of sustained contribution in launchpad, and a lack of documentation on the wiki. -1 for now
<stgraber> -1 from me too, waiting to have an improved wiki page showing more contributions to Ubuntu directly and testimonials
<Seveas`> ok, that's -4. jaap__, please continue to contribute and try to improve your wikipage, hope to see you again soon :)
<Seveas`> angelabad: you're up
<jaap__> OK. If those are the rules. I thought that by contributing a lot indirectly and some directly I could qualify for membership
<jaap__> Thanks
<jaap__> Bye
<angelabad> Hi, Im Angel Abad from Basque Country (spain)
<popey> jaap__: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership details at the top out expectations
<angelabad> Im a Debian maintainer and Debian Perl tema member
<angelabad> i contribute to ubuntu with my debian packages, and
<angelabad> i make spanish translation, answers and triaging some bugs
<angelabad> in my wiki page are links with information about my packages
<Seveas`> angelabad, how many uploads did you do direct to Ubuntu?
<popey> I'm seeing a few questions on launchpad, a few from july '09 and a few last month.. and only a small amount of bug work so far..
<angelabad> Seeker`, directly i have no uploads
<angelabad> popey, there are no much questions in spanish
<popey> ok
<Seveas`> Do we count debian uploads as contributions to Ubuntu? I'd say yes, if the uploader also supports them actively in Ubuntu by responding to bugreports etc.
<popey> agreed, would that not make them more motu material?
<Seveas`> popey: do you think the bug activity is enough to consider it 'active maintenance'?
<popey> 4 bugs
<Seveas`> then no
<popey> I'd certainly like to see a more sustained contribution.. unless I'm missing some detail?
<stgraber> Are you involved with any team ? I see you are part of the bugsquad and ubuntu-es but am a bit surprised that you don't have any testimonial on your wiki page.
<Seveas`> angelabad: unless you get some testimonials from people commenting on your contributions to Ubuntu, I don't think I can give a +1
<Seveas`> like with jaap__, contributions to upstream are greatly appreciated, but direct contributions are what makes people ubuntu members
<angelabad> stgraber, im member of this teams recently
<Seveas`> (for the record: -0)
<Seveas`> matthew pushed a wrong button?
<Seveas`> heya :)
<forumsmatthew> my wireless connection crashed
<forumsmatthew> I have no idea why
<forumsmatthew> but it's back now
<popey> I'm going to go -0 too I'm afraid. It's hard to see the contribution on the wiki.. and I don't see a sustained contribution in launchpad..
<Seveas`> forumsmatthew, stgraber?
<stgraber> -0 as well. I'd have liked a few testimonials and a bit more contributions on LP.
<forumsmatthew> I am going to -0
<Seveas`> ok, that's a -0 combined.
<Seveas`> Sorry angelabad, please don't let this discourage you!
<Seveas`> toabctl: you're up next
<toabctl> hi
<toabctl> i'm tom from berlin/germany, use debian since Potato and ubuntu since warty. i contribute to ubuntu with bug reports and  improvements for the loco directory (loco.ubuntu.com). I linked contributions on my wiki page.
<angelabad> ok, thanks for your care
<toabctl> ^^ just copied to make it quick :)
<Seveas`> toabctl: when did you start actively contributing to Ubuntu?
<toabctl> Seveas, some bug report over the years, but most work i have done in the last months with loco-directory.
<czajkowski> you're doing a great job on the loco directory toabctl
<toabctl> czajkowski, thanks!
<Seveas`> I must confess that I haven't looked at it yet
<popey> Seveas`: its very nice, better than one big-ass wiki page!
<Seveas`> ok
<toabctl> popey, right! :-)
<Seveas`> hmm, ubuntu-nl is up for reapproval this year
<Seveas`> good to know :)
<forumsmatthew> I'm impressed. You have some wonderful endorsements and I like what you are doing with the loco directory
<dholbach> toabctl is also active in the ubuntu berlin team - hope he can help out with the ubuntu global jam this time again :)
<popey> O HAI dholbach
<dholbach> hey :)
<Seveas`> dholbach: if you were on the emea board, would you give a +1?
<popey> dholbach: is that an endorsement?
<Seveas`> dholbach: also, don't fall in the canals :)
<dholbach> I thought I added an endorsement to toabctl's wiki page?
<popey> oh, you did
<forumsmatthew> you did
<popey> i have daniel blindness
<Seveas`> :)
 * forumsmatthew hugs dholbach 
<forumsmatthew> just for comfort after popey's blindness toward you
<dholbach> toabctl is a great guy, I'm happy he's part of the berlin team, incredibly happy he helped out like that with the loco directory and it's great to have lunch with him every now and then :)
 * dholbach hugs forumsmatthew
<Seveas`> forumsmatthew: don't you mean blindingness?
<toabctl> dholbach, thanks!:)
<Seveas`> +1 on toabctl
<forumsmatthew> probably, it's been one of those days
<forumsmatthew> I'm a definite +1
<stgraber> +1
<toabctl> dholbach, btw. i had indian lunch today:)
<popey> ok, based on great testimonials,  bug work, and contributing to loco directory which is soooooo needed, +1
<dholbach> toabctl: completely well-deserved :)
<Seveas`> +4 it is
<Seveas`> congrats!
<popey> congrats toabctl !
<Seveas`> popey: can you do lp?
<toabctl> stgraber, i have written you an email because of LXC. you didn't answer ;)
<popey> keep doing what you're doing
<popey> yup
<czajkowski> toabctl: well done!
<Seveas`> invernizzi: you're up
<invernizzi> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucaInvernizzi
<dholbach> toabctl: I'm totally up for Indian food, when I'm in Berlin again next week :)
<invernizzi> https://edge.launchpad.net/~invernizzi
<invernizzi> I'm Luca Invernizzi, 25yo italian student.
<invernizzi> I'm one of the "Getting Things GNOME!" developers, I've written several plugins for that software (synchronization with rememberthemilk.com, Evolution, Tomboy support) and I do a lot of bug fixing.
<stgraber> toabctl: oh, sorry for that, I'm quite a bit backlogged. I'll have a look.
<invernizzi> I keep the PPA with the latest version of GTG from trunk always updated (https://edge.launchpad.net/~invernizzi/+archive/gtg-daily ), and help the people that come around in our IRC channel with questions.
<invernizzi> In my university I'm one of the system administrators (power!) and help the students to know about Ubuntu. I'd say I've converted completely something around 20 people, and we keep counting.
<toabctl> great! thanks czajkowski , dholbach , Seveas , popey , stgraber forumsmatthew !
<cjohnston> invernizzi RTM plugin for gtg is great.. and speaking with him yesterday,  his upcoming plans for the plugin show much promise
<Seveas`> -1. As with the first two candidates, Ubuntu membership is meant to be a recognition of contributions to Ubuntu. Your wikipage lists only a single upstream.
<invernizzi> ok
<forumsmatthew> same here. I love what you are doing, but it isn't specific to Ubuntu -1
<popey> I'm afraid I concur, -1 here too
<stgraber> Also a -1 from me, I like the work you do on GTG but that's one of the many upstream of Ubuntu and can't be counted as an actual Ubuntu contribution. I'll be glad to see you again when you'll have more contributions and testimonials on that wiki page
<popey> (although I do think GTG is utterly awesome!)
<invernizzi> ok, thank you
<Seveas`> sorry invernizzi, please don't be discouraged. GTG is awesome :)
<Seveas`> qense: you're up.
<qense> ok!
<popey> +1
<Seveas`> +1
<popey> very easy for me
<Seveas`> yeah
<qense> I shall ...
<popey> haha
<qense> OK, that starts good
<qense> no introduction needed?
<forumsmatthew> hey, let me read his pages...
<forumsmatthew> ;)
<Seveas`> qense, yes, introduction needed :)
<qense> ok, here it comes:
<Seveas`> but I've seen your activitiy for so long that I did not need to think :)
<qense> that's flattering
<qense> I'm Sense Hofstede, member of Ubuntu Bug Control and Ubuntu user since the last weeks of 2005 and really active in the community since 2007, when I started to do some more serious bug triaging.
<Philip5> does that mean it's my turn? :)
<qense> I've hung around at several places, including Ubuntu NL
<forumsmatthew> Okay, NOW I'm +1
<qense> Currently I'm working on Adopt-a-Package, mostly Nautilus,  other bug traiging and Ubuntu Wanted
<qense> I'm going to give a session about Adopt-an-Upstream in the near future, btw. If you're interested, come!
<Seveas`> Philip5: no, please be patient :)
<stgraber> thanks for the introduction, testimonials look great and I've seen you around a few times. +1
<popey> woop woop
<Seveas`> ok, +4, thanks for all the contributions qense and congratulations!
<hggdh> and I for one will cheer for qense
<qense> thank you all!
<bcurtiswx> Me too for the cheer
<micahg> hggdh: +1
<hggdh> QENSE!! QENSE!!
<Seveas`> Philip5: *now* it's your turn :)
<qense> :D
<Philip5> hehe, ok
<popey> lp done
<Philip5> well as you can see on my wiki i'm a ubuntu user since dapper and have been hosting my own repository since then. i also am very active in the swedish loco
<Philip5> when it comes to the repository you find it's current state on my launchpad site
<Seveas`> Philip5: why did you choose using ppa's over uploading to Ubuntu proper?
<Seveas`> Philip5: (unrelated) can you give a link to your profile on the ubuntu-se forum?
<popey> Philip5: what do people mostly use the -se loco channel for? chat, support, loco 'stuff'?
<Philip5> i have no good answer to that i'm afraid but i think that i haven't taken the time to go into the process for motu or something like that
<Philip5> popey: all of that but it's mainly a support channel for ubuntu in swedish
<Philip5> the same concept as the #ubuntu but in swedish and #ubuntu-se is the official swedish ubuntu channel
<Philip5> my LP page is missleading in the part when it say it's registered as i have merged 2 accounts
<popey> yeah, i see you renamed your ppa
<Philip5> yes
<Philip5> i figured it was better to use a username that is the same as my nick
<popey> heh, i did the same
<popey> people kept adding the wrong guy to their teams / mailing lists :)
<Seveas`> heh
<Philip5> but when it comes to ubuntu contribution
<Philip5> it looks like i will take over maintainance of the 2d animation program synfig
<Philip5> both in debian and in the next step ubuntu
<Seveas`> I'm +1 based on loco work and cheers. PPA is a nice thing too
<Philip5> i have been asked to do it
<popey> golly! look at your ppa
<forumsmatthew> The PPA is nice, but I'm going to +1 for the loco/forums work
<Philip5> yes, many people like my ppa
<popey> you should look at the motu track
<popey> dholbach here can help you with that..
<popey> anyone _that_ keen on packaging should be helping dholbach!
<popey> however, based on cheers and loco work, +1
<dholbach> helping the MOTU team! there's always a lot to do in Ubuntu! :)
<popey> ..and there he is
<stgraber> +1
<Seveas`> popey summoned the dholbach :)
<Seveas`> That's +4 if my calculator still works
<Seveas`> welcome abourd Philip5!
<Philip5> thank you guys
<Seveas`> (ah, it's the spellchecker that failed, not the calculator...)
<Seveas`> iaculallad: you're up next (and last)
<Philip5> one question... do i need to do something to make the membership, mail and cloak part happen?
<popey> nope
<popey> yes
<popey> kinda
<iaculallad> Ok. Ian Ace Culallad here, from the Philippines
<popey> Philip5: i have added you to ubuntumembers, drop by #ubuntu-irc for the cloak
<popey> the mail should happen 'at some point'
<Philip5> popey: allready there :)
<Philip5> popey: ok, thanks
<popey> haha at iaculallad email address
<stgraber> iaculallad: Did you contribute in any other way than advocating Ubuntu ?
<forumsmatthew> iaculallad, as I look, you haven't had much activity on the forums for more than 6 months. Even though you had quite a bit before that. Did something happen?
<iaculallad> yes, through answering queries on launchpad and UF, submitting bug reports.
<stgraber> currently looking at your wiki page and Launchpad, I see you've mostly been showing Ubuntu to friends/colleagues and are using it both at home and work. Other than that I see you answered a few (really not that many) questions on Launchpad.
<iaculallad> Yes, I was quite busy getting back on my feet for my work so I never have the time visiting back my posts.
<Seveas`> -1. Unless I am missing something, neither wiki nor launchpad provide evidence of a significant, sustained contribution to Ubuntu.
<forumsmatthew> I'm inclined to agree. -1
<iaculallad> Aside from showing, I had been deploying Ubuntu on servers in my line of work
<popey> I will also -1, as we're after a sustained and significant contribtion to the project.
<iaculallad> helping out on forums too.
<forumsmatthew> Your last post on the forums was July 18, 2009
<forumsmatthew> you had one in July, one in June, but haven't been regular since May 2009
<iaculallad> yap, the last time when I was busy getting back on my feet during that time.
<forumsmatthew> I'm only saying that we can't use forum activity to help us decide. There just hasn't been any recently.
<Seveas`> stgraber: what's your vote?
<stgraber> Looking at LP, I see 4 bugs, 9 translations and a bit over 50 answers. That and no other significant contribution that I can find, makes me -1 this one.
<Seveas`> ok, that's -4
<Seveas`> and end of meeting for us, just within the hour :)
<popey> good, cc meeting coming right up!
<forumsmatthew> thanks everyone! see you around
<czajkowski> nicely done folks
<Seveas`> popey: will that cc meeting announce who will reinforce the emea board?
<popey> no, we're waiting on a vot
<popey> vote
<Seveas`> k
<forumsmatthew> bye!
<popey> o/
<popey> thanks everyone!
<dholbach> hey mako
<dholbach> hey popey
<smeag0l> gotta go the toilet brb
<dholbach> Technoviking: hola
<pleia2> hey
<popey> well hullo
<dholbach> heya pleia2
<pleia2> popey: who didn't vote re: emea?
<popey> mako
<pleia2> ah
<dholbach> mdz: around?
<dholbach> hiya sabdfl
<sabdfl> hello all
<popey> ooo hello
<pleia2> hello
<dholbach> mdz' agenda item is the only one on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<dholbach> but I'm not sure he's around
<mako> i'm an hour early, not an hour late, right?
<popey> you're on time!
<mako> oh, great :)
<sabdfl> fancy that. a mako!
<sabdfl> mako: heard about your great LCA talk
<popey> also, mako could you please vote on the emea rmb thread?
<dholbach> do we have anything apart from mdz' "Council election process, and standardization thereof"?
<mako> give me a second to catch up
<popey> ta
<sabdfl> mdz's here, I think
 * popey pokes nixternal 
<sabdfl> Should we get started?
<dholbach> well... afaict there's only mdz' agenda item and he didn't respond yet :)
<dholbach> but I'm all for starting - I'm missing lunch right now ;-)
<sabdfl> I don't have specific's on mdz's agenda item, but I believe it relates to (a) the relationship between the TB and CC
<sabdfl> and (b) the election process for councils, which I would prefer to call a polling process, since in many cases we are essentially testing and verifying the delegation of authority, not really running an open election
<sabdfl> the TB / CC question came up because of my seat on the TB, which is ex officio
<mako> ok, i voted on the EMEA RMB thread
<popey> thanks mako !
 * highvoltage ctcp's dholbach a sandwich
<sabdfl> originally, we sketched the TB and CC out without a clear relationship between them, iirc
<mako> sorry about that, i didn't realize i hadn't voted :)
<popey> np
<sabdfl> mako was there, so can remind me :-)
<mako> so i don't think that's was what mdz' item is about :)
<sabdfl> i was on both of them, but delegated the chair of the TB to mdz
<dholbach> sabdfl: in what way do you think the CC / TB relationship could be clarified?
<mako> or mabye it is. i have had completely distinct conversations that could fall under the same heading :)
<mako> with mdz, recently
<sabdfl> dholbach: well, does the TB report to the CC in the same way that the Irc Council does?
<mako> in any case, this is a fine conversation
<sabdfl> originally, i've played the same role in both cases - nominating candidates which a poll confirmed or potentially vetoed
<mako> sabdfl: so AIUI, in the original plan there were two "supreme" councils, the CC and the TB
<dholbach> sabdfl: no it doesn't - my perception was that they were separate from each other
<mako> neither was higher or lower than the other, they just had different and non-overlapping jurisdictions
<sabdfl> and i sit on both. i've had good feedback on that (it helps to keep them aligned) and negative feedback (it's weird to have a person who's so obviously not as directly involved in #ubuntu-devel there)
<sabdfl> mako: yes, that's my recollection too
<sabdfl> and i think we had good reason to do that, and it's worked well too
<mako> so any team has to answer to both. the TB for technical matters, and the CC for community matters
<sabdfl> but it's a bit single-point-of-failure'd on me
<mako> and if a team's work is less technical, the TB is just less involved
<sabdfl> ah, i missed that latter point
<sabdfl> about reporting both ways. surely if they have non-overlapping domains, that's not such a feature?
<mako> i think in practice, it's clear who the ultimate authority is for the vast majority of questions
<mako> and sometimes it's both
<mako> say, delegating membership for technical contributions
<mako> so the groups have worked together to hammer something that sort of works for everyone
<mako> maybe that's happened a dozen times?
<sabdfl> right. i feel the CC has plenty to think about in how some of the delegation happens there, for example the DMB / MOTU / TB / ArchiveReorg discussions
<sabdfl> at least, my involvement there has felt like it was with a CC hat
<mako> so i've never sat on the TB, so i've never felt this conflict particularly accutely :)
<dholbach> I personally felt that the "ubuntu membership" part of it was CC-related and whatever had to do with upload permissions was a "TB thing"
<dholbach> sabdfl: what felt like CC material to you?
<sabdfl> if i got hit by a bus, i would rather have mdz nominating folks to the TB (and by proxy, a strong leader individual who was close to both Canonical and community) than the CC
<sabdfl> dholbach: some of the subtleties of community relationship, trust, delegation etc are far, far removed from the technical details of policy, packaging, versions, tools
<dholbach> the CC almost wasn't involved in those discussions about delegation, etc. - do you think that should've been different?
<sabdfl> as a straw man, how about mdz and silbs and i work out a disaster recovery plan with some of those ingredients, but preserving essentially the idea that there will be *some person* who plays that role for the TB, and *some person* for the CC, where currently i'm the same person in both cases
<sabdfl> dholbach: that's true, and it was a complex enough discussion that i think it may have been even harder with more people. but on the other hand, i think the CC has quite a lot of experience in delegation, so some patterns are obvious to us that those involved there seemed to miss
<dholbach> right, I think I can see where you're coming from
<mako> sabdfl, that sounds like a very reasonable thing to do
<dholbach> yeah
<sabdfl> separately, i think we can document the "partially overlapping jurisdictions" dictum that mako reminded us of
<sabdfl> because i don't think there *needs* to be a strict hierarchy, just good respect between the groups
<sabdfl> unless folks want to change that
<mako> the hardcoding of SABDFL into the governance documents, with no fallback or other options, has always seemed suboptimal
<mako> fixing that would be good
<sabdfl> let's call it The Plan We Won't Ever Need
<mako> sure :)
<pleia2> sounds good
<dholbach> ok :)
<sabdfl> ok. the (b) part above, was that more what you thought mdz had in mind, mako?
<mako> and it's a good idea to do some higher level documentation about the relationships between the two boards and about governance process in general
<mako> if such things ever existed it would need to be rewritten anyway
<sabdfl> as it happens, we're refreshing website content right now, so this is timely
<mako> sabdfl, not at all :)
<sabdfl> ok, what's your channelling of mdz then :-)
<dholbach> it might also have been about the women's team leader appointment
<dholbach> although the word "council" wouldn't fit in there
<mako> i thought it was about hte ubuntu women appointment
<sabdfl> he did weigh in on that thread, yes
<mako> he seemed rather confused about the process
<pleia2> there is confusion within the community about what votes and appointments for each councils and boards exist
<pleia2> does the cc select forums council, can people vote for irc council, etc
<mako> so we have a decent policy for delegated boards
<pleia2> I think if they're not documented, they should be
<dholbach> I think we discussed this at some point, trying to document the cases where we "by default" don't poll all ubuntu members or  some such
<mako> but for smaller teams, there's no real stated process for how leadership happens
<mako> pleia2, so i think in the case of the big subprojects (like, big enough to have a council of your own) we're in decent shape
<mako> the problem is the vast majority of cases which don't fall into that category
<dholbach> and mark the whole thing as guidelines, so we have the flexibility to make different decisions if it's necessary
<mako> and, in particular, cases where it's not even clear who the membership of a team might be
<dholbach> yeah
<pleia2> mako: I always get a lot of questions around when loco nominations and such go out about "when/whether voting happens"
<dholbach> like the loco council
<pleia2> same with regional boards and such
<mako> pleia2: that's right
<popey> i like that it's more freeform and organic for 'lower' / 'smaller' teams
<mako> so i tend to think that leadership is best figured out "by the group"
<popey> it allows them to evolve their own processes
<mako> and that you can have a team without a leader, or without a single leader
<mako> and that we've been burned by premature leadership appointment before
<pleia2> I do like that we allow flexibility with how teams can govern themselves
<sabdfl> agreed. the CC should certainly reserve the right to recognise a particular leader if that will help to shake out a problem.
<mako> absolutely
<mako> so i think we should make it very clear that (a) teams are welcome to work out their own leadership arrangements and (b) the cc is happy to help unstick problems that arise or help create process that will fit or work
<mako> and we can document a range of the clever and effective things that teams have done
<sabdfl> it can often happen that you get a vocal group of troublemakers, who use their loudness to drown out others
<sabdfl> in cases like that, we need to be able to be very firm and say "we recognise that sane person over there as the lead, period"
<sabdfl> we do it at some risk, because other who aren't aligned with that person may/will leave
<mako> i think in general, ubuntu teams have done a pretty good job in handling this issue
<sabdfl> but in those cases, that's often the desired result
<mako> or rather, these issues
<sabdfl> yes, i agree
<mako> so i think we have lots of good examples to point to
<dholbach> mako: part of that sounds to me like "howto drive a team" docs which sould be great, what do you think we should try to unify/clarify/document as the CC itself?
<sabdfl> i think it's useful to encourage teams to use rough-consensus polling
<sabdfl> and only to escalate when there are real divides
<sabdfl> i don't think we want to require a formal leader or specific structure
<mako> that said, there's a weird situation where it's not even clear who members of a team are
<sabdfl> except in the cases where we are delegating responsibility
<mako> which sounds like it was part of the issue with ubuntu-women
<mako> and that's one of the thing uw folks are struggling with now
<sabdfl> the general pattern of having a leadership team / council / board, and a team of "members" below them (in the case where the CC is satisfied that membership of the team implies substantial and sustained contribution) is a good one
<pleia2> mako: yeah
<sabdfl> we can easily bootstrap that, though
<sabdfl> we appoint a team to lead, with a leader, and they grow a team which is "u-w members"
<sabdfl> in time, the u-w member help select the u-w leadership team, modulo the CC's ability to make nominations in the cases where we think that's needed
<mako> so in the future (and this is all on reflection) i think i would feel more comfortable determining team membership than appointing leaders
<mako> sabdfl: so that's roughly what we did :)
<pleia2> yeah, we're working through defining a voting team now
<sabdfl> well, we said "these folks who've come along look like a good bunch, and we think Amber looks like a good person to help chair it all, and they seem to like her too, so wahey!"
<sabdfl> and that's just fine by me
<czajkowski> pleia2: yes thankfully, though the issues of what makes the team has been the issue, mailing list or launchpad
<maco> i think we decided that the lp team was who-can-vote and that we'd just remind the ml people to sign up to the lp team before voting happens
<maco> at least, that's how our most recent vote happened
<pleia2> and having a temporary leader to chair all of this has been helpful
<czajkowski> pleia2: couldnt' be done without, and thanks to the cc for helping
<czajkowski> I for one am rather thankful for that.
<sabdfl> so this is a good result, and not a bad precedent
<czajkowski> no. it may need some tweaking or documented, but I think it worked. also hard to judge the 1st time, it's learning curve
<mako> in general, i don't have really any trouble with appointing temporary leadership
<mako> although i might play some semantic game and call them stewards
<mako> but in any case, i'd like to codify the range of what people do
<sabdfl> that's a good term
<sabdfl> in the early days of a good idea, there usually aren't a lot of jerks hanging around trying to influence things
<sabdfl> because it's all work and no glory
<sabdfl> *maybe* there was a risk of that here because of the gender branding (guys drawn to *-women for all the wrong reasons)
<dholbach> mako: would that be a clarification of  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncil/Delegation ?
<mako> so i think documenting a range of examples of how teams handle the getting off the group and leadership issues is a good idea. this is one model we should present. and it will be nice to incorporate the general reflectiosn of uw folks on how well it worked in a few months
<sabdfl> but in general, when we have an enthusiastic team who like one another and want to get going, it's ok to bless them
<mako> dholbach: could be, could be a separate document
<sabdfl> +1 to a review with the benefit of hindsight at the next UDS
<maco> i think should probably not use the word "election" to describe appointment. resulted in too many confused people going "so when do we vote on the leader?" and having to explain that though it says election, its not really
<mako> dholbach: i sort of think a document on "leadership options" would be good. with a delegated council as one of the options
<pleia2> I like the idea of such a document as well
<mako> dholbach: pair it up with the leadership COC and we have a little stable of leadership policies :)
<sabdfl> poll is a better term - it's a testing of the waters, a taking of the pulse
<dholbach> sabdfl: so you think we should work on such a document and review it at next UDS together?
<sabdfl> dholbach: it sounds like a good chapter in Jono's 2nd edition to me ;-)
<mako> sounds great
<dholbach> haha, I'll mail him the log of the meeting then :)
<sabdfl> "bootstrapping new teams and initiatives"
<mako> so that we've talked about both of the issues that we think that mdz might have been wanting to raise... :)
<dholbach> who'd like to work on a draft for such a document now?
<mako> like, RIGHT now?
<mako> i really want mdke to weigh in. he's some really good insight on the topic on the CC list
<dholbach> or in the next few weeks - I was wondering if we'd take some actions from the meeting
<mako> dholbach: i'd like to
<sabdfl> good point, let's ask mdke to weigh in based on this log
<dholbach> ok, I could mail mdz and mdke the log of this meeting
<sabdfl> super.
<dholbach> alright, I'll do that
<sabdfl> can we wrap for now, then?
<mako> dholbach: let's schedule a time to do something on gobby
<dholbach> sabdfl: yep, that'd allow me to see what's left of lunch ;-)
<mako> otherwise, i'll just put it off
<sabdfl> hope it's tasty!
<czajkowski> etherpad is a lot nicer
<mako> or etherpad :)
<dholbach> I'm sure it's going to be good :)
 * dholbach is happy here in Portland
<sabdfl> dholbach: hi to the gang
<dholbach> good sprint
<popey> \o/ etherpad
<dholbach> sabdfl: I'll do that and pass on some hugs :)
<sabdfl> is it free?
<Daviey> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org \o/
<czajkowski> sabdfl: yup
<sabdfl> not the hugs - the pad
<popey> heh
<sabdfl> cool
<popey> beat me to it Daviey
<dholbach> haha
<sabdfl> a.o.b.?
<dholbach> none from me
 * dholbach will mail mdz and mdke after lunch - see you later!
<sabdfl> rockage all round. night / afternoon / morning / all
<popey> o/
<dholbach> rock on
<sabdfl> meeting over
<sabdfl> pleia2, czajkowski: so you're off to a good start?
<czajkowski> sabdfl: I think so..
<pleia2> sabdfl: I'd say so
<pleia2> some very productive meetings lately
<dinda> group is off to a great, renewed start :)
<czajkowski> we've a good few things lined up between now and the end of the cycle so good progress to be made
<sabdfl> super. hi dinda!
<czajkowski> dinda: aloha :)
 * dinda waves to the room
<popey> :)
<sabdfl> looking forward to the release, then UDS
<sabdfl> cheers all
<popey> mmmm UDS
<popey> someone needs to announce that
<popey> so people can book holiday
<sabdfl> someone's still picking a venue, methinks :-)
<popey> not talking personally there.. oooooh no ;)
<czajkowski> heh
<Daviey> popey: UDS is *hot* a holiday..   Intentionally misunderstanding people since 2010
<czajkowski> Daviey: hot yes....
<sabdfl> fair point. nudge clan, she's not in charge of it any more but can point you in the right direction. i saw a shortlist recently.
<maco> Daviey: well, $work probably thinks it is :P
 * popey gets his nudgeing keyboard out
<czajkowski> sabdfl: it's just so folks can book time off work,, or plan for themselves to attend, more notice helps
<czajkowski> right time for some blog posts to be done
<highvoltage> yes even if venue is not confirmed
<czajkowski> toodles
<dinda> pleia2: did the wiki licensing issue just disappear altogether?
<pleia2> dinda: good question, I think it was taken to a private discussion?
<dinda> pleia2: ok, thanks, need to do some nudging then
<drubin> am I late?
<cjohnston> howdy
<lukjad007> No one started saying anything until you did drubin
<Akos> Hi everyone
<lukjad007> Hey akgraner
<cjohnston> hey Akos
<lukjad007> Akos :P
<cjohnston> tab fail!
<cjohnston> i hate that lol
<lukjad007> bodhi isn't here.
<lukjad007> Therefore the meeting isn't happening
<lukjad007> At least not here
<drubin> I know.
<drubin> Maybe they are running abit late. I would give them another few mins
<lukjad007> Let's start the meeting and make a memorandum that everyone else must give us cookies!
<drubin> Who else is here for the meeting? Sorry just trying to get a head count
<cjohnston> o/
<lukjad007> 0/
<lukjad007> So.
<cprofitt> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 16:11. The chair is cprofitt.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cprofitt> welcome to the Beginners team meeting everyone
<lukjad007> HEY
<lukjad007> Heh
<lukjad007> Hi
<cjohnston> hello
<cprofitt> Easwar are you here?
<cprofitt> Seeing as Easwar is not here I will table his topic
<cprofitt> [topic] Security Focus Group Plans for Next Year
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security Focus Group Plans for Next Year
<cprofitt> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Security
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Security
<cprofitt> I have recently taken over the FG Team lead for the Security
<cprofitt> I want to focus on doing two things
<cprofitt> 1.  Cleaning up and adding security pages to the wiki
<cprofitt> on the linked page you can see a table towards the bottom
<cprofitt> this will be run just like the Wiki team runs their summer of documentation
<cprofitt> if you are interested in assisting the process of documenting security on the wiki please add to the table
<cprofitt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/Security
<cprofitt> again that is the link to the page
<lukjad007> cprofitt Okay, that looks good to me.
<cprofitt> 2. develop courses that will contribute to the UCLP on security related topics
<cprofitt> these could be how to chroot jail an SSH server or how to use SSH to secure transmissions between two networks
<cprofitt> If you would like to work on courses for the UCLP please contact me via email or in the Beginners Team channel #ubuntu-beginners-team
<cprofitt> [topic] All matters that are going to be discussed at the meeting that are of significance be sent to the mailing list at least one week prior to the meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  All matters that are going to be discussed at the meeting that are of significance be sent to the mailing list at least one week prior to the meeting
<cprofitt> you are up lukjad007
<lukjad007> Thank you
<pedro3005> has the meeting started?
<lukjad007> Yes
<cprofitt> yes, it has pedro3005
<pedro3005> ah. sorry then
<cprofitt> no problem
<pedro3005> so... what are you discussing?
<lukjad007> There has been a bit of an uproar over some recent changes. I think a lot of it was because people didn't feel they had enough time to vent. And suddenly the mailing list was active. Well, I suggest that we have the discussion before the meeting, rather than during and after.
<pleia2> I agree, I think that was what was always intended but never really happened in practice
<pleia2> so it would be good to encourage that more strongy :)
<cprofitt> lukjad007: that has been something we have encouraged in the past
<lukjad007> To that end we just make it mandatory that all "big" topics that are going to be discussed at the meeting need to have *at least* one week's time on the mailing list
<lukjad007> Anything else just gets put onto the next meeting
<pleia2> that sounds reasonable
<cjohnston> I'm fine with that
<cprofitt> are we prepared to move to the next topic?
<lukjad007> I would like to say that there seems to be very few people here today... does anyone think we should postpone anything?
<cjohnston> -1
<cjohnston> imo
<cprofitt> I think we can go over what was discussed via the mailing list
<lukjad007> Okay
<cprofitt> [topic] Moving major decision making from IRC meetings to Launchpad votes
<MootBot> New Topic:  Moving major decision making from IRC meetings to Launchpad votes
<cprofitt> you again lukjad007
<lukjad007> k.
<lukjad007> This is another subject that is there to allow more people to have a say in the meetings. It seems that sometimes things happen and the meeting is just at the wrong time.
<cprofitt> like today as an example
 * pleia2 nods
<lukjad007> If we move to launchpad and let the voting go for a little while (a matter of days, not weeks) we could let more people have more say
<cprofitt> I would agree.
<lukjad007> I think that 3 days for voting would be fair, though that's negotiable
<cprofitt> I think to really move this forward we have to actually propose the change
<cprofitt> via the mailing list
<pleia2> me too, and I think it would encourage active use of the mailing list during the voting period and before
<pedro3005> Agreed.
<cjohnston> I think that if we are going to do that, then get rid of the meetings.. Everything else can be done on ML
<lukjad007> cprofitt I did...
<cprofitt> complete with an example of how voting would be conducted
<cprofitt> let people see how it works
<lukjad007> cjohnston I think the meetings are useful for personal realtime interaction and for voting on new members
<cprofitt> then we can discuss it in a meeting... and perhaps move to a meeting
<pleia2> lukjad007: I agree
<cjohnston> discussions are supposed to happen in the channel and on the ML
<pleia2> I like that membership approval still happens on irc :)
<pleia2> and it's nice to get together in real time
<cprofitt> well... most discussions are supposted to happen on the ML, but there is still space to allow some discussion in here
<cprofitt> like we are doing now
<lukjad007> pleia2 I think that membership *must* stay on IRC.
<cjohnston> Why not vote for new members on LP too then? It's only fair that if certain votes are going to be available to everyone (via lp) not just those at the meetings that we give membership votes to everyone via lp
<cprofitt> we just can not have deep long term discussions in the meeting
<cprofitt> cjohnston: that is a good point and one we can adress on the ML
<lukjad007> cprofitt May I give you my proxy for the rest of the meeting, something just came up, I'll try and get back asap
<pedro3005> adding new members isn't a deep long term thing.
<cprofitt> any more to add to this lukjad007 ?
<cprofitt> +1 pedro3005
<lukjad007> cprofitt Nope, I'm done
<cprofitt> silver is not here
<lukjad007> cprofitt You have my proxy, okay?
<cprofitt> so I think we can table the other two items that are his
<cjohnston> pedro3005: but why not give all BT members a chance to vote on the new members
<cprofitt> is akos here
<Akos> I am
<cprofitt> lukjad007: would you like to tell us about akos?
<pedro3005> cjohnston, they do. just attend the meeting. if they don't, no big deal.
<lukjad007> cprofitt He's a very competent and well mannered padawan, I think he's ready :)
 * Akos smiles
<cprofitt> Akos: what is the answer?
<cjohnston> pedro3005: then all votes in meetings.. and "they do, if they dont no big deal"
<cjohnston> it goes both ways
<lukjad007> I have had no issues and I think he will be a great asset to the team
<Akos> cprofitt: Yes, I am ready (:
<cjohnston> it goes both ways
<pleia2> cjohnston: we can pick this discussion up on list :)
<cprofitt> No.... the answer Akos ?
<cjohnston> check
<cprofitt> the answer to the ultimate question Akos
<pedro3005> cjohnston, Big decisions should be on the LP or whatever. But as adding new members isn't much of a big decision, not everybody needs to be heard. just who attended the meeting.
<cprofitt> pedro3005: lets table this
<cprofitt> it is Akos time in the spotlight
<Akos> cprofitt: I do trust myself, a Yes is closer to me than a maybe
 * cprofitt laughs
<lukjad007> cprofitt Just FYI, tabling something in US and tabling something in Britain mean the opposite.
<cprofitt> Akos: I was making a geek reference no worries
<cprofitt> does anyone else have any questions for Akos ?
<Akos> cprofitt:i got no such training from lukjad007 :P
<pedro3005> lukjad007, how could you? :P
<cprofitt> or does anyone move for a vote?
<lukjad007> Akos I thought you knew!
<lukjad007> cprofitt Table
<cprofitt> lukjad007: ?
<Akos> lukjad007: I thought you can see what I knew *smirks*
<cprofitt> move for a vote?
<cjohnston> vote for what?
<lukjad007> Vote for what?
<cprofitt> Akos for member
<pedro3005> Akos' membership
<cprofitt> it is on our agenda
<cprofitt> hence why he was being asked questions
 * cjohnston makes a motion to table the membership votes due to the lack of people present to make votes.. motion to move membership votes to LP
<cprofitt> denies cjohnston's motion
<pedro3005> I disagree
<cprofitt> the decision to have votes on the LP has not been adopted
<pleia2> I don't think it's fair to change the process out from someone who is already on the agenda
<lukjad007> Vote
<cprofitt> hence we can not do that yet
<cprofitt> and +1 pleia2
<lukjad007> +1 for Akos
<cprofitt> I will move to vote then
<cjohnston> im making a point
<cprofitt> [VOTE] Akost for membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Akost for membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjohnston> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjohnston. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cprofitt> sorry about the typo
<cprofitt> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cprofitt. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cprofitt> are there any more votes?
<pedro3005> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pedro3005. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
 * Akos bakes the cookies
<cprofitt> lukjad007: do you have a vote?
<cprofitt> [ENDVOTE]
<cjohnston> he passed already... if thats the only vote left
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<pleia2> welcome, Akos :)
<cprofitt> [ACTION] AKOS is a member
<MootBot> ACTION received:  AKOS is a member
<pedro3005> Welcome to zombocom
 * Akos smiles wide
<cjohnston> yay
<Akos> thank you guys :D
<cprofitt> [AGREED] to welcome Akos as a member
<MootBot> AGREED received:  to welcome Akos as a member
<highvoltage> congrats Akos
<Akos> thy (:
<cprofitt> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:35.
<cprofitt> that is the end of our meeting.
<cprofitt> thanks for coming everyone
<Akos> that was fast
<highvoltage> which meeting was this, btw? I didn't see it in the calender
<cjohnston> highvoltage: beginners team
<cjohnston> its on fridge
<pedro3005> highvoltage, the people's front of judea meeting
<highvoltage> cjohnston: ah right, beginners team can vote in new members?
<highvoltage> cjohnston: or was that a vote to include him on the team?
<pleia2> not ubuntu members, beginners team members
<cjohnston> team
<highvoltage> right, got it
<drubin> highvoltage: lolz
<stlsaint> ahhh i missed it :(
<pedro3005> stlsaint, Silver_Fox_ , yes, you guys missed it
<stlsaint> pedro3005: :P
<pedro3005> stlsaint, you quit my channel! :(
<Silver_Fox_> Missed what?
<pedro3005> Silver_Fox_, the meeting
<Silver_Fox_> Which meeting pedro3005 ...
<pedro3005> Silver_Fox_, the beginners team meeting?
<Silver_Fox_> Oh yes so I did
<pedro3005> Silver_Fox_, yep...
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-02-03
 * stgraber looks at his watch, looks like it's MEETING time !
<alkisg> \o/
<stgraber> highvoltage, mgariepy, alkisg, nixternal, sbalneav, lns !
<stgraber> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:01. The chair is stgraber.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<stgraber> Yeah, bot working again !
<stgraber> [TOPIC] Spec status update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Spec status update
<stgraber> unfortunately, highvoltage doesn't seem to be around at the moment, so we'll have to a wait a bit more for a netbook status update
<stgraber> on my side, I started some heavy nagging and debugging to fix the DVD builds
<stgraber> I changed the seeds yesterday to include mgariepy's menu editor as soon as it's in universe
<stgraber> I also changed the langpack list of include all languages (as we used to) but also all the required input methods, translation packages and fonts
<stgraber> that way we should have a working edubuntu in all languages, though I found quite a few interesting issues relating to that and I'm doing langpack debugging today ;)
<alkisg> :)
<alkisg> Any news about that live ltsp thing?
<stgraber> We haven't had any change on bug 509970
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 509970 in ubuntu-cdimage "Make Edubuntu DVD Live only + additional packages" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/509970
<stgraber> which is required to get the 2 extra free gigs that we'll partially use for LTSP
<stgraber> LTSP live itself (as of the script) is on my laptop and will need to be pushed to the build server whenever we'll have enough space for it
<stgraber> on my side, it's pretty much it
<alkisg> Very good... looks like we've mostly done our part!
<stgraber> well, yeah but we have two weeks or so to get our DVD image fixed and the builder updated
<stgraber> and ubuntu-cdimage isn't very responsive on LP ...
<alkisg> Hrm :(
<stgraber> I'll soon start poking people directly rather than the team itself, maybe it'll be more efficient
<stgraber> mgariepy:
<mgariepy> i have corrected the pacaking problem of edubuntu-menueditor
<mgariepy> put (with the help of stgraber) roseta trasnlation for this application
<mgariepy> as soon as the binary package is avalaible on lucid universe i'll rebuild it with the corrections.
<mgariepy> beside that, i didn't had time to write the user manual. i'll probably start this tonight.
<stgraber> current publication status is that edubuntu-menueditor is accepted in the archive as source package (apt-cache showsrc edubuntu-menueditor) but the binary package is still in the queue, should be fixed real soon
<mgariepy> any questions ?
<stgraber> great, thanks
<stgraber> next up is the website though I don't see anyone around ... (that meeting room really feels empty today)
 * Lns is here :)
<stgraber> Lns: hey
<Lns> hiya starcraft
<Lns> err stgraber hehe
<stgraber> hehe ;)
<stgraber> ok, I'm guessing we'll get a better status update on the website next week then ;)
<stgraber> [TOPIC] Documentation day
<MootBot> New Topic:  Documentation day
<stgraber> it was discussed last week that we should define a date for the doc day
<stgraber> that'd be after the Feature Freeze
 * stgraber looks at the release schedule
<stgraber> UI freeze is on the 4th of March
<stgraber> the week of the 11th of March seems good
<stgraber> as it's after UI freeze and before the first beta
<stgraber> and before the Doc string freeze
<Lns> sounds good, what exactly is involved in doc day?
<stgraber> probably going through the Edubuntu content on help.ubuntu.com, making sure it still applies
<stgraber> updating screenshots
<stgraber> having a look at the handbook
<stgraber> nixternal and sbalneav would be a lot better to explain what that day is about though they don't seem to be around :(
<Lns> :(
<stgraber> I'd suggest we go with the 9th of March (tuesday)
<stgraber> anyone against that date ? ;)
<Lns> not me
<mgariepy> not me.
<stgraber> [AGREED] Documentation day on Tuesday the 9th of March
<alkisg> You won't get much negative votes today :)
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Documentation day on Tuesday the 9th of March
<stgraber> alkisg: makes the meeting so much faster ;)
<stgraber> [TOPIC} Other businesses ?
<MootBot> New Topic: [TOPIC} Other businesses ?
<stgraber> doh, I forgot artwork once again ...
 * stgraber adds it to the agenda
<Lns> Well, I did my first edu 9.10 install a couple of days ago and have been writing some notes, not sure if it'd fit into a meeting or i should bring it up in #edubuntu
<stgraber> Lns: maybe post them to the ML ?
<Lns> ok
<alkisg> Lns, 9.10? You should be trying 10.04 now :D
<Lns> is there an iso?
<alkisg> Yup
<stgraber> alkisg: well, we'd need a working DVD for that ;) hasn't built for 2 weeks
<stgraber> Lns: yeah, there's but it's quite old
<Lns> lol.. ok i'll go get it then =)
<alkisg> There's still the old dvd
<Lns> oh
 * Lns will wait for the next build :)
<stgraber> for artwork, it was another of Jonathan's items though I guess you all saw the proposed backgrounds from madsrh on the ML ?
<stgraber> I'm going to see with Jonathan to update our backgrounds to include these, probably set the one that was the most popular as default and update the icon theme
<stgraber> I also asked Jonathan if he could provide us with a screenshot for each proposed icon set
 * alkisg liked those backgrounds, but wasn't so excited to vote on making them our default artwork...
<Lns> I agree with including the backgrounds, but also agrees with alkisg
<Lns> I think we could make it more suitable for all ages
<Lns> It's definitely better than a couple years ago
<stgraber> so far, for icon theme we have humanity, gartoon and breathe
<Lns> stgraber: where can we view those?
<stgraber> Lns: yeah, if we do change the background soon, it'll be mostly so our testers actually notice a change ;) These were a first draft and I expect more to come
<Lns> mmk
<stgraber> and I don't plan on dropping any background from the artwork package yet, we have space so it's not really an issue
<Lns> totally. The more the merrier =)
<stgraber> Lns: they are all packaged, easiest is to install them and try them out
<stgraber> though we have a fresher gartoon in Scott's PPA
<Lns> is gartoon the default in 9.10?
<stgraber> yeah, gartoon is the one we have for a while
<Lns> I think it's a good iconset for primary schools
<Lns> but at least in 9.10 it was inconsistent with the rest of the menus
 * Lns might be barking about something that's already been fixed in 10.04
<alkisg> I'm also not too font of gartoon... I think sbalneav likes it a lot, though
<stgraber> we may offer different gnome themes too if we want, one for primary school (using gartoon), one for secondary school, ...
<Lns> stgraber: that's a great idea
<Lns> the more we focus on separating pri/sec schools (fine grain it) the more people will be able to relate to it
<Lns> and therefore feel good about using/installing it
<stgraber> sorry, just got quickly disturbed at the office ;)
<Lns> hehe, figured
<stgraber> [AGREED] Investigate having more than one gnome theme with different icon/background choice
<MootBot> AGREED received:  Investigate having more than one gnome theme with different icon/background choice
<Lns> I think we could do a lot with theming in Edubuntu. It might be the 'killer feature' we need that ubuntu doesn't have for schools
<Lns> we could survey schools as to the favorite subjects/topics in each grade and base a theme around it
<Lns> think of an installer option for default themes..that would be kiler
<Lns> killer*
<stgraber> yeah, it's clearly something we will be able to improve over the next releases, for Lucid we are getting closer and closer to FeatureFreeze. So we won't be able to make everything automatic and shiny
<Lns> sure, but the future is always open! =)
<stgraber> ok, looks like we're done ;)
<stgraber> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:38.
<dhillon-v10> i guess i am late :)
<Lns> hahaha
<Lns> yes.
<dhillon-v10> Lns: hi there :)
<Lns> hey dhillon-v10
<dhillon-v10> Lns: I was only a minute late though before the meeting ended
<Lns> dhillon-v10: well you can check the logs to catch up =)
<Lns> thanks everyone =)
 * sbalneav wanders in for the tail end
<alkisg> (09:38:24 Î¼Î¼) MootBot: Meeting finished at 13:38.
<alkisg> :)
<sbalneav> phht
<Lns> heh
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-02-04
<kangarooo> so meeting translators team not happening?
<noway2> bye
<noway2> quit
<noway2> exit
<noway2> who
<noway2> who
<noway2> exit
<lynn> who
<noway2> To those on the east (US) coast, are you ready for the snow storm?
 * persia points at #ubuntu-offtopic
<noway2> Yes, off topic, but its a few minutes till meeting start.  Everyone is so quiet today.
<ScottK> Lack of off topic chatter does not make other off topic chatter OK.
<bapoumba> bodhi_zazen: shall we wait for Ryan and Matthew ?
<bapoumba> Technoviking: ?
<bodhi_zazen> Technoviking: poke
<bodhi_zazen> jdong: poke
<jdong> bodhi_zazen: Grabbing food. 10 mins
<bodhi_zazen> thanks jdong
<jdong> But im on my phone and can see the meeting :)
<bodhi_zazen> 'lo bapoumba
<bapoumba> jdong: do not eat and talk at the same time please :p
<bapoumba> hello bodhi_zazen :)
<bapoumba> ping ArtificialIntell
<Joeb454> jdong: at least, not with your mouth full ;)
<ArtificialIntell> I'm here
<bapoumba> hey :)
<bodhi_zazen> 'lo ArtificialIntell =)
<cariboo907> Didin't I see something in staff chatter the TV wasn
<bapoumba> Is AI's point the only one for the meeting, bodhi_zazen ?
<cariboo907> wasn't going to make it to the meeting?
<bodhi_zazen> I think so, unless we wish to discuss the member I temp banned ?
<bapoumba> cariboo907: yes, he mailed the FC too, thanks :)
<bapoumba> bodhi_zazen: I do not think he is around :)
<bapoumba> we should have him here
<bodhi_zazen> +1 bapoumba
<bapoumba> AI, do you wish to talk about your proposal ?
<ArtificialIntell> Aye
<ArtificialIntell> I don't know if everyone read the link I provided?
<ArtificialIntell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<ArtificialIntell> When the council is ready, I'll make my proposal.
<bapoumba> I'm ready :)
<bapoumba> (is there another meeting after us ?)
<bapoumba> bodhi_zazen: are you ready ?
<jdong> ok I'm good :)
<bapoumba> OK, that's 3 of us, shall we proceed ?
<bodhi_zazen> yep
<bapoumba> cool, AI, you're on :)
<ArtificialIntell> ok, thanks.
<ArtificialIntell> My proposal regading the UF game forum. As you may know I spend a lot of time moderating and reading the game forum, so I have made some observations.
<ArtificialIntell> One of the things; it's hard for the users to find linux related stuff/games for linux/ubuntu due to the heavy posts about non-linux games.
<ArtificialIntell> A lot of of posts are related to wine or emulators which are ruining the game forum.
<bapoumba> Should not these posts be moved to the WINE forum ?
<ArtificialIntell> One of the problem was partly solved by making a forum for wine, but it haven't made my job easier though, as a lot of threads I have to move/delete
<ArtificialIntell> People simple don't reads stickies :-P
<bapoumba> Maybe we should update the description of the WINE forum
<bapoumba> and of the game section as well ?
<ArtificialIntell> An option could be "Linux Game" with sub "Native game only"
<bodhi_zazen> I have always found wine questions difficult as there is a ton of variability across various versions of wine, although I have not used wine in a while
<bapoumba> Would changing Gaming & Leasure to Linux Games make iy better for you, AI ?
<ArtificialIntell> But my original idea was moving wine as a sub to game forum plus making a sub for for emulators of all kind
<bodhi_zazen> configuring wine + apps (games) is a whole art to itself ;P
<bapoumba> or Native Linux Games ?
<bapoumba> and everything else pushed to WINE ?
<bodhi_zazen> I am neutral on the issue, but I would support what you feel would be easiest, but I see a lot of continued thread moving =(
<ArtificialIntell> People would scream if we put everything else in wine
<bapoumba> okay
<bapoumba> we try to keep the number of section as lox as possible
<bapoumba> the structure is already quite complicated ..
<ArtificialIntell> When we're talking emulators it's  c64/PSP/Wii/nintendo etc.
<jdong> I side with bodhi_zazen on this.... AI, you're the one that's the most experienced with this and I'll trust your judgement
<jdong> but from my experience it won't solve any of the thread-moving issues
<ArtificialIntell> I know, but moving wine from frontpage to sub might uncluttering the frontpage a bit
<bapoumba> wine is not only for games, is it ?
<ArtificialIntell> People are complaining that native gaming on linux are drowning in emulators/wine/etc
<bapoumba> SO what about changing Gmaing & Leasure > Native Linux Games ?
<ArtificialIntell> aye, bapoumba, but 99% of the question is about gaming with wine
<bapoumba> okay
<ArtificialIntell> o should I say I"How do I WoW" LOL :-P
<ArtificialIntell> It drove Hika insane I recallled :D
<bapoumba> Eheh :)
<bodhi_zazen> How about a sub section of Linux Native games ?
<ArtificialIntell> Bapoumba, it still doesn't solve the emulator issue
<bodhi_zazen> rather then splitting off wine ?
<ArtificialIntell> What do you mean?
<bodhi_zazen> I agree, since most games requiring support are going to be Windows running on Wine ...
<bodhi_zazen> So, why not make a linux native gaming section for the linux native games and leave the current section as is ?
<bapoumba> bodhi_zazen: you mean, top forum = Native Linux Games, Sub forum : Wine and emulators ?
<bodhi_zazen> Just the opposite bapoumba , top forum = games (which implies wine) Sub Forum Linux native
<bapoumba> okay, better :)
<bodhi_zazen> Do we get that much traffic for linux native games ? I would guess not
<ArtificialIntell> Most traffic is emulators/wine
<bapoumba> and people who wish to concentrate on native linux games will be able to :)
<bodhi_zazen> ArtificialIntell: is most of your work moving threads involve moving wine questions to the wine section ?
<bodhi_zazen> would it help to just "give up" and allow people to default to wine then, with a linux native sub forum ?
<ArtificialIntell> aye, because people can't find wine forum
<bodhi_zazen> hopefully you would then move less threads
<bodhi_zazen> So, do away with wine forum, make game implicit games + wine with a sub section for linux native games ?
<ArtificialIntell> Ney, Bodhi. We'll have 16 new thtreads each day on "How do I WoW"
<ArtificialIntell> in the gaming forum
<bodhi_zazen> What is wrong with that, give the gaming forum to wine rather then having to move threads ?
<ArtificialIntell> and the logical perspective as a ubuntu/linux forum to have a forum for native game IMO
<bodhi_zazen> I agree with the logic, but in practice since most questions stem from wine, and you are having to move threads , I am wondering if a linux native section would make it any easier
<bapoumba> Yes, change Gaming for Native Linux Games, and WINE to WINE & Emulators ?
<ArtificialIntell> Well, yes if the two subs is added
<bapoumba> Why make subs ?
<bodhi_zazen> Considering what has been discussed, What would make your life easier ArtificialIntell ?
<bapoumba> Change Gaming > Native Linux Games and change Wine > Wine and emulators ?
<bodhi_zazen> Forum - Windows games
<bodhi_zazen> Forums - Linux games
<bodhi_zazen> leave wine out of the title ?
<bodhi_zazen> s/gaming/Linux games
<bodhi_zazen> s/wine/windows games
<ArtificialIntell> Game forum with two subs. One for Wine and one for Emulators. People can't avoid to see the two subs and it will make it a lot easier for people to search for the informations they are lokking for
<bodhi_zazen> OK, what emulators are there other then wine ?
<jdong> Linux games and non-native games I think is more clear of a divide...
<jdong> there's a lot of platform emulators
<jdong> like for the PSP, NES, and so on
<ArtificialIntell> most be around 20 emulators or so
<noway2> It seems like one of the big concerns is keeping wine separate from native linux.
<ArtificialIntell> Aye, though I like to put things in the right boxes :-P
<ArtificialIntell> (and spambot hunting)
<noway2> the proposal for having wine + emulators and native linux games seems reasonable to me.
<ArtificialIntell> I could live with that. 1 for native and one for non-native
<bodhi_zazen> \o/
<jdong> *nods* sounds great to me :)
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you for you work on that ArtificialIntell
<bapoumba> +1
<ArtificialIntell> my pleasure ^_^
<ArtificialIntell> I don't have more to add.
<bodhi_zazen> Any other agenda items ?
<bapoumba> not that I know of
<bodhi_zazen> Otherwise we are waiting to see if any other FC members have issues
<jdong> I can't think of anything
<noway2> I had a similar topic as AI's but this meeting is running long, so I will put it on the agenda for next month.
<bapoumba> maybe we should continue the discussion on the ml ?
<bapoumba> to get everyone's input ?
<bapoumba> hey tseliot :)
<jdong> sounds like a good idea
<jdong> I don't expect there to be any disagreements but it's good to get everyone's input
<bapoumba> okay, I'll post it on the ml, unless someone else wants to do it ?
<bodhi_zazen> thank bapoumba , I was just about to ask that =)
<bapoumba> welcome :)
<bapoumba> time to go to bed, it's midnight here :)
<ArtificialIntell> same here 00:00
<tseliot> hey bapoumba
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-01-31
 * ara waves
 * skaet looks around
<skaet> hi ara
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Daviey> o/
<skaet> hi Daviey
<skaet> The priority for today's meeting is to figure out where we are with 10.04.2.
<cjwatson> hi
<skaet> hi cjwatson
<skaet> cjwatson, pitti - where are we with the 10.04.2 images?
<pitti> hello all
<pitti> they build fine, and automatically
<victorp> skaet - hi
<pitti> I just gave an update wrt. proposed vs. updates this morning via email
<skaet> hi pitti, victorp
<cjwatson> right, that's the main thing we're waiting for at the moment
<pitti> they currently build from -proposed, as we still need to verify some SRUs
<cjwatson> one regression known to me, bug 709694
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 709694 in linux-backports-modules-2.6.32 (Ubuntu Lucid) "Lucid package linux-backports-modules-wireless-lucid-generic broken" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/709694
<pitti> in particular, d-i and installing with the maverick kernel
<cjwatson> I believe pitti is handling that
<pitti> cjwatson: was tested, copying to -updates nwo
<skaet> pitti,  so when will there be an image for ara's team to use?
<pitti> I still think we should use the current ones for certification (with -proposed)
<cjwatson> I concur
<skaet> ok
<pitti> after a quick test from QA that they install at all (in VM should be fine)
<pitti> install in normal lucid as well as "maverick backport kernel" modes
<pitti> d-i and eglibc are the only potentailly hw specific packages
<pitti> and we already cleaned up the questionable ones from -proposed
<ara> pitti, the thing is that I don't understand why you don't think those packages are safe enough to move to -updates, yet they are safe to use for certification
<cjwatson> -updates would cause every user to upgrade
<pitti> ara: well, the point of that is testing, isn't it?
<pitti> if we already knew that they don't break anything, then we wouldn't need a cert run
<pitti> OTOH, if cert passes with those, we can move everything to -updates and are good to go
<pitti> ara: we don't know of any breakage in the current proposed packages, but nobody tested them yet
<skaet> jibel, pedro_ ^^ is a test of -proposed as outlined by pitti possible today?
<cjwatson> the reason to be cautious about cert on -proposed would be if there were several things likely to be pulled out
<ara> pitti, the point in running a full cert is to "certify" that they keep working, more than testing if it breaks
<cjwatson> as pitti said, he already removed the questionable proposals, so we're now looking at *unexpected* problems
<pitti> ara: ok, then we need "normal" sru testing before
<ara> pitti, we tested it, last week
<cjwatson> I don't think we should waive the waiting period for cert, so if cert can't use -proposed, the only remaining option is to push through validation
<pitti> ara: oh? didn't see that; was that with the current d-i already?
<ara> pitti, when was that uploaded to -proposed?
<cjwatson>  -- Colin Watson <cjwatson@ubuntu.com>  Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:19:31 +0000
<cjwatson> but it would have needed explicit testing with the maverick boot option, not just "still works as normal"
<ara> cjwatson, we didn't test the maverick boot option, that's for sure
<sconklin> o/
<sconklin> never mind
<jibel> o/
<skaet> hi jibel,  go ahead
<jibel> hi, to answer your question, there are only 2 packages in -proposed that we can really test : base-files and unattended-upgrades
<cjwatson> I don't understand why it isn't possible for QA to test d-i
<pitti> jibel: i. e. QA can't do install smoketests?
<jibel> yes I can, but at the moment I'm rather low on resources smoketesting A2
<cjwatson> you may not be able to confirm that it fixes a given piece of hardware, but you can confirm that it installs successfully and that it uses the proper kernel version both during installation and on the installed system
<pitti> (i. e. same like for normal alphas, using the iso tracker)
<cjwatson> (you plural)
<pitti> perhaps we can also have some community testing on alpha2
<jibel> The last package I've validated this way, 'check that it installs' was ubuntu-docs and now users of maverick think they are running natty :(
<pitti> and I can certainly help testing images as well
<pitti> jibel: (^ that's fixed in -proposed, FYI)
<pitti> actuall in -updates already, I think
<cjwatson> wasn't that xubuntu-docs anyway?
<pitti> no, ubuntu-docs
<cjwatson> ok
<skaet> hmm, so we appear to have run smack into the a2 testing crunch we were afraid of.
<skaet> jibel,  what's your current plan for today?
<jibel> skaet, I'm nearly done with A2 smoketest, now syncing DVDs, I can do lucid d-i instead.
<cjwatson> note that the lucid images that need testing in particular for this are DVDs, both amd64 and i386
<cjwatson> I can do lucid DVD i386 if people don't mind me doing it as the person who wrote the code
<jibel> yes. I can sync that now and post the results tomorrow morning.
<skaet> jibel,  thanks.
<ara> awesome, thanks jibel
<skaet> cjwatson,  not worried.  :)
<jibel> skaet, but no smoketest of natty a2 dvd if you agree.
<pitti> I think 10.04.2 CDs are more urgent wrt. that
<skaet> jibel,  ok,  don't think we have a choice at this point - if we want to get the 10.04.2 cert run done.
<pitti> we'll get more community feedback on natty alphas than for lucid point releases
<ara> pitti, agreed
<ScottK> And undetected problems in an Alpha release are much less important than a problem in an LTS point release.
 * skaet nods
<charlie-tca> o/
<skaet> ok,  so A2 smoke test of DVDs goes on the shelf, and we smoke test lucid, so hw cert can start tomorrow (if all goes well)
<skaet> are the A2 images ready to go to the iso tracker?  (so we can get community testing started on those)
<pitti> if we get results for the DVD in both modes, d-i can go to -updates
<skaet> pitti,  ack
<cjwatson> a2> no, I was expecting that to start with tomorrow's autobuilds
<pitti> once hw cert passes, eglibc and basic stuff like consolekit can go, too
<cjwatson> so that still means running cert against an image built from -proposed
<pitti> I did some smoketesting on the natty dailies last week and yesterday, looks ok so far
<cjwatson> which I'm happy with, but we seemed to be at an impasse on it earlier
<pitti> if we don't run cert against -proposed, we can alternatively switch to -updates right after the d-i smoketest
<hggdh> and we are still running the server dailies on Hudson
<hggdh> (natty)
<pitti> and test the other packages separately, as usual
<cjwatson> I don't agree - that would mean dropping a bunch of stuff out
<cjwatson> I think that would create substantial confusion CD-wise
<pitti> the disadvantage is that we'll do a hw cert test against an older version of pacakges
<pitti> and the actual 10.04.2 release will be different than what has been tested
<cjwatson> also, the upstart patch is such that it should be on the CD
<pitti> that's why I'd much prefer hw cert against the -proposed ones
<pitti> but I think if that's a no-go, we could cope
<ara> pitti, anyway, we won't be finishing full cert until late next week
<ara> cjwatson, why building from -updates will mean that the rest will go out?
<ara> cjwatson, are we building only one daily from -updates
<ara> ?
<pitti> if we require that "image that hw cert tests" == "released image", we'll need to postpone the remaingin proposed updates until after 10.04.2 and miss those fixes
<pitti> which would be unfortunate
<pitti> if hw cert is testing the current images, then they would be in
<pitti> for all intents and purposes, the current dailies are the final 10.04.2 release
<cjwatson> ara: we only build one set of dailies, and they are from -proposed
<pitti> unless testing/cert detects regressions
<cjwatson> ara: the effect of switching to -updates is that anyone testing the CDs tests only -updates
<skaet> cjwatson,  pitti,   let me see if I've got it straight -  QA suspends rest of A2's smoke tests for today and A2 tomorrow images is for iso tracker (not ideal, but low risk);   10.04.2 - we get DVD runs from QA (and other volunteers) with current dailies (which will become 10.04.2), so we can move to updates,  then hw cert can start?
<cjwatson> alpha images have nearly always gone to the ISO tracker on Tuesday, in practice.
<ara> skaet, if d-i and eglibc are in -updates, we are happy to test from -proposed
<skaet> cjwatson,  ack
<jibel> o/
<cjwatson> it's also what https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MilestoneProcess says - "release minus 2 days"
<skaet> jibel, go ahead
<jibel> re a2, during smoketest I've identified 2 showstoppers  on amd64 bug 710582 and bug 710612 .
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 710582 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Natty) "ubiquity crashes after step 'Who are you' : segfault in libwebkitgtk-1.0.so.0.5.2 on AMD64" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/710582
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 710612 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Natty) "Kubuntu Desktop AMD64 - ubiquity kde_ui crash with File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/debconf.py", line 70, in command self.write.flush() IOError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/710612
<jibel> It would be great if someone could confirm it's not just me.
<jibel> (or better that it is just me)
<pitti> the second was discussed this morning on #u-devel, I think that's not just you
<pitti> (unfortunately I don't remember/have read the outcome)
<cjwatson> it was discussed as a result of jibel mentioning it :-)
<pitti> ah
<cjwatson> and that was just me saying "not a debconf bug"
<Riddell> I couldn't confirm bug 710612 with today's ISO
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 710612 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Natty) "Kubuntu Desktop AMD64 - ubiquity kde_ui crash with File "/usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/debconf.py", line 70, in command self.write.flush() IOError: [Errno 32] Broken pipe" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/710612
<skaet> jibel, thanks.  will work with others then after this meeting to get someone else to confirm 710582
<cjwatson> I poked ev about jibel's latest reply to 710582
<jibel> skaet, thanks
<skaet> cjwatson, thanks
<cjwatson> I don't think it would strongly benefit from other people reproducing it
<cjwatson> unless those other people are able to debug webkit directly
<skaet> heh,  fair 'nuf
<cjwatson> 710612 is probably a race of some kind :-/
<skaet> :(
<skaet> okie,  back to 10.04.2 then...
<cjwatson> I expect it depends on how long you take to respond to the parallelised questions
<skaet> ?
 * skaet is still jetlagged - parallelised questions isn't parsing 
<cjwatson> it's a detail of installer design
<cjwatson> relevant to 710612
<pitti> cjwatson: ubiquity is copying files while the user still creates accounts, sets time zone, etc.
<pitti> that happens in parallel since maverick
 * cjwatson thinks pitti meant to direct that to skaet
<pitti> oops, yes
<cjwatson> anyway, yes, 10.04.2
 * skaet  light dawns.... thought "you" was in reference to something I needed to answer about 10.04.2, not 710582....  ok, clarity. 
<cjwatson> ah, right, sorry
<ara> o/
<skaet> go ara,  I think your questions are the ones we need answered now..
<ara> OK, so I think that if, as pitti says, QA tests d-i, d-i and eglibc can go to -updates
<ara> and we are happy to run cert  from -proposed cds once those are in -updates
<ara> pitti, those are the packages that can affect hw, are they?
<pitti> ara: right
<pitti> but eglibc also needs extra verification
<pitti> so a pure smoketest isn't enough for eglibc IMHO
<cjwatson> hm, there is one quirk here
<cjwatson> this only applies to live filesystems
<cjwatson> but live filesystems that are built against -proposed contain -proposed in their sources.list
<cjwatson> I don't think that's preserved in the installed system, but it means that people e.g. upgrading live USB sticks get stuff from -proposed
<cjwatson> I don't think we should release that way
<pitti> agreed
<cjwatson> so, sorry to put a spanner in the works, but if cert must check the final candidate images, then I think we may really need to finish verification before cert starts
<pitti> but that shouldn't matter for hw cert, just for final validation?
<pitti> (i. e. after rebuilding the CD from -updates only at the end)
<cjwatson> with the exception of server images, which could go ahead
<cjwatson> hence my "if"
<pitti> I thought hw certification would be by and large "test default install on different hw" while validation would be "test all install modes on pretty much one kind of hw"
<pitti> so for hw cert a CD rebuild wouldn't hurt, but it mustn't happen for the latter?
<cjwatson> are folks agreed that cert does not have to be on the very final set of images that we release?
<skaet> cjwatson, hw cert is testing the functional equivalent, rather than the final.
<cjwatson> in that case I withdraw my spanner
<skaet> heh,  that's what was discussed in dallas..
<ara> cjwatson, yes, the images don't need to be final, but we need everything that affects hw in -updates
<cjwatson> round and round we go.  sorry.
<skaet> ok,  jibel,  are you good with the d-i and eglibc testing today?
<jibel> skaet, d-i ok, eglibc, I can only install, which doesn't verify anything.
<skaet> jibel,  thanks
<ara> hggdh should be able to verify https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/eglibc/+bug/694772
<skaet> cjwatson,  what's needed before the eglibc can be moved to updates?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 694772 in Ubuntu Studio "Sudden reboot during server ISO install" [Critical,Confirmed]
<pitti> bug 702190  is a nuisance to verify, as it doesn't have a test case; if it passes an install check, I'd consider that enough regression testing, though
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 702190 in eglibc (Ubuntu Lucid) "__strncmp_ssse3 can segfault when it over-reads its buffer" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/702190
<cjwatson> pitti may or may not agree, but TBH, it's had enough pre-release testing that I'd be happy with regression testing
<skaet> thanks cjwatson, pitti.   ok
<pitti> bug 694772 should be verified as part of validation testing, as it happened during iso tests
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 694772 in Ubuntu Studio "Sudden reboot during server ISO install" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/694772
<cjwatson> 702190 does have a test case, it's just rather opaque and involves compiling and running a program on the right kind of hardware (comment 1)
<pitti> bug 672177  is the third eglibc bug and should be testable during validation
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 672177 in upstart (Ubuntu Natty) "libc6 upgrade causes umount to fail on shutdown because init cannot be restarted" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/672177
<cjwatson> it's also a multi-part bug - I think the pre-release testing has covered much of that, although it's known not to be sufficient on its own
<skaet> hggdh, can you help out on 694772?
<cjwatson> so on the whole I think install + upgrade smoketests should be sufficient for that
<cjwatson> otherwise it could easily be a rabbithole that consumes QA forever
<skaet> cjwatson,   ok.
<hggdh> skaet, looking into it
<skaet> thanks hggdh.
<skaet> jibel:  are you ok with cjwatson's proposal?
<jibel> skaet, if everybody is ok, I'm fine with his proposal.
<skaet> pitti, you ok?
<pitti> ack
<skaet> ok, that's the plan then.
<skaet> we'll carry this conversation over to #u-release
<skaet> we're running late now
<skaet> any other critical issues to bring up?
<hggdh> pitti, for 694772 -- is it OK if I install the updates, then reboot into busybox and send in a telinit u?
<cjwatson> as long as it's busybox init ...
<cjwatson> (this may not be entirely trivial to arrange)
<cjwatson> it might be easier to boot the server CD in rescue mode and then use 'telinit u' there
<pitti> hggdh: I thought the fix in eglibc was to precisely not to that?
<cjwatson> but none of that validates whether eglibc is doing the right thing in its postinst, of course!
<cjwatson> so actually I don't think that's a valid test
<hggdh> hum
<cjwatson> yeah, pitti's right too
<hggdh> darn, indeed :-(
<pitti> I'd think the test case for this is "validate that the server iso installs"?
<cjwatson> hggdh's proposal is a way to test upstart in isolation
<cjwatson> but I agree with pitti, I don't think there's much point in lots of detailed messing about here
<hggdh> the problem is I would need to be in ISO install to test
<pitti> note that upstart only adds a breaks to older eglibc versions
<cjwatson> we haven't fixed the upstart part yet anyway
<pitti> i. e. testing the the new upstart in isolation won't give us anything for this bug
<cjwatson> any d-i install smoketest by anyone would be sufficient validation for 694772
<pitti> I agree
<skaet> ok
<ara> cjwatson, then jibel's test should be enough?
<cjwatson> it wouldn't be comprehensive proof, but the server team have been working on establishing that independently.  it would be regression-testing, which I think in this case will be enough
<skaet> on that note, probably time to end the meeting.
<skaet> thanks cjwatson, pitti, ara, jibel, hggdh, Riddell, ScottK
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:09.
<ara> thanks skaet, all!
<pitti> thanks everyone *phew*
<skaet> jibel, can you hang out in #u-release today - so we can work through this.
 * skaet agrees with pitti - *phew*....  need more 'spresso!
<jibel> skaet, after 2000UTC, when everything is back to normal here, I need to deal with the kids now, see you later.
<skaet> jibel,  thanks!
<kees> \o
<jjohansen> o/
<jdstrand> o/
<mdeslaur> yellow
 * sbeattie waves
<jdstrand> shall I run the meeting?
 * mdeslaur pushes jdstrand to front of room
<jdstrand> ok then :)
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:04. The chair is jdstrand.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] weekly standup report
<MootBot> New Topic:  weekly standup report
<jdstrand> I've got several things tugging at me at present
<jdstrand> I am helping the release team with my archive admin duties, and that has slowed me down a bit as I learn the processes
<jdstrand> I'm working on the dbus-glib update and the qrt script for dbus bindings
<jdstrand> there is also a lot of various followup work I am trying to catchup on
<jdstrand> that should be it for me
<jdstrand> kees: you're up
<kees> okidoky
<kees> I've got OOo to publish, and kernel to do USNs for
<kees> I'm on triage, and I'm going to try to clean up some of the open security bugs
<kees> I've also got a regression in the kernel I need to test a fix for. I'm kind of all over the place.
<kees> that's it, mdeslaur you're up :)
<mdeslaur> I'm writing a subversion test script. I should get it published today
<mdeslaur> after that, I was to work on the new fuse stuff
<mdeslaur> and maybe take a look at exim4 if I have time
<mdeslaur> that's it.
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're next
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week.
<sbeattie> I've got another openjdk update planned this week; amazingly the arm hamsters managed to complete all the builds over the weekend.
<sbeattie> so I'll be testing those today.
<sbeattie> I need to put together snapshots for apparmor 2.5.2 and 2.6.0 releases at some point, but that's been stalled on reviewing patches for 2.5.2.
<sbeattie> I think that's it for me.
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] miscellaneous
<MootBot> New Topic:  miscellaneous
<jdstrand> so I have several random things to bring up that have been sitting in tomboy for far too long :)
<jdstrand> first (and speaking of apparmor), we need to have an upstream apparmor meeting
<jdstrand> is that something we can do this week?
<sbeattie> yeah.
<jjohansen> yep
<jdstrand> (to discuss the rally stuff)
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> we can schedule that in #apparmor
<jjohansen> yep
<jdstrand> one thing that has been asked of the security team in the past, and mentioned to be recently, is that we should strive to be as open as possible
<jdstrand> I'd like to provide summaries of our weekly security meetings somewhere
<jdstrand> I'm not sure where. I'm not convinced it is super interesting to devel@, so I thought maybe somewhere in the wiki?
<kees> summary of the stand-up?
<jdstrand> kees: stand-up and anything else. ie, this meeting :)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: our activity reports are way more interesting than our meetings...
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: yes, but other teams do log there meetings (eg, the server team)
<mdeslaur> unless we talk about something other than what we have planned for the week
<kees> I'm not opposed to it, but it seems like summarizing our stand-ups isn't very useful. if it was a long meeting, it would make more sense?
<jdstrand> now, there could be a concern about people saying "I'm going to work on this", get sidetracked and not do it, and then mentioning it the next week
 * ScottK suspects it's interesting enough for ubuntu-devel.
<jdstrand> I'm open to not doing anything with the stand-up report (ie "I'm working on foo this week"), but including the other bits as they come up
<jdstrand> what do other people think?
<kees> yeah, I'm not against it, I just question the value. if people think there's value, then let's do it.
<jdstrand> well, in a discussion I had it was implied that it should be done, and it isn't
<jdstrand> so I am trying to figure out the best way to do that
 * jjohansen thinks its extra work for very little gain
<jdstrand> jjohansen: maybe, but it is an action item I can take
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: I wouldn't include the stand up report, but if we discuss anything else it could be worth it
<jdstrand> I don't think it is much work. our meetings are short, the summary even more so
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: well, what if we did this:
<jdstrand> kees is on triage, sbeattie is on community. sbeattie also hopes to work on apparmor 2.5.2
<jdstrand> ie, don't mention the specific security updates/audits we are working on
<mdeslaur> that's fine
<jdstrand> just that 'mdeslaur is working on foo in addition to various security updates)
<jdstrand> s/)/'/
<jdstrand> I'll come up with some sort of summary, and we can discuss it outside of the meeting
<jdstrand> [ACTION] jdstrand to write up meeting minutes and submit to team for review
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand to write up meeting minutes and submit to team for review
<jdstrand> perhaps we can table where the will reside based on what we decide should be in them
<jdstrand> s/the will/they will/
<jdstrand> I also have various items from my rally notes that I think should either be assigned or documented somewhere for todo
<jdstrand> please feel free to add any to this list
<jdstrand> * respin ia32-libs (natty and earlier)
<jdstrand> * add mvo's apt script to qrt
<jdstrand> * kernel capabilities tests
<jdstrand> * kernel keyring tests (LTP?)
<jdstrand> * /etc/apparmor.d/mysqld.d for akonadi (currently assigned to me)
<mvo> jdstrand: hm?
<mvo> qrt?
<jdstrand> * vm-iso changes to get rid of vm-new stuff
<jdstrand> mvo: hi! not an action item for you
<jdstrand> mvo: we discussed at the rally how we might want to snag your apt tests
<jdstrand> mvo: and somehow incorporate them into qa-regression-testing
<kees> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/apt/auth-test-suit/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/apt/auth-test-suit/
<jdstrand> mvo: and then conceivably run them on a release basis to be sure we are ok
<mvo> aha, this one :)
<mvo> ta!
<jdstrand> * add ipc to kernel tests
<jdstrand> so, with the exception of ia32 and akonadi, it seems it is fine and appropriate to add these as TODO's to the various scripts if we don
<jdstrand> 't/can't do them right away
<jdstrand> does anyone want to claim any of these? the akonadi one is assigned to me currently, but it is likely I won't get to it anytime soon, so can consider that up for grabs
<mdeslaur> I can put ia32-libs at the end of my to-do list
<kees> what were the details on the caps tests?
<kees> just for qrt?
<jdstrand> kees: yeah-- something in qrt to verify that they work properly
 * kees ponders
<jdstrand> kees: positive and negative tests
<kees> I can take it, but it's not going to be very high priority for a while.
<jdstrand> oh sure
<sbeattie> what sort of tests for caps?
<jdstrand> this isn't about 'can we do it *now*' as much as if people want to do it, they can claim it, otherwise we can just pop it into the script as a todo
 * sbeattie notes the apparmor regression tests test a few of the capabilities, but doesn't test the whole bounding set/inheritance stuff.
<jdstrand> [ACTION] mdeslaur to take ia32-libs when time allows
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdeslaur to take ia32-libs when time allows
<mdeslaur> so, I can put ia32-libs on my to-do list, just as long as you don't expect it to ever get done
<mdeslaur> \o/
<jdstrand> hehe
<sbeattie> actually, I should probably take a look at that one, to learn how its done.
<sbeattie> (ia32-libs)
<kees> [ACTION] kees to take kernel capabilities tests when time allows
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you cool with sbeattie doing that?
<kees> aw, that only works for the chair, unlike urls
<jdstrand> [ACTION] kees to take kernel capabilities tests when time allows
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kees to take kernel capabilities tests when time allows
<jdstrand> I think the apt and keyring ones are pretty big
<jdstrand> (potentially)
<jdstrand> I'll add TODO notes for them, and maybe Roadmap the apt one
<sbeattie> yeah, kernel keyring's had lots of bugs.
<jdstrand> [ACTION] jdstrand to add keyring and apt tests to TODO in the scripts
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: sure, I don't care
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand to add keyring and apt tests to TODO in the scripts
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: either way, I won't be doing it :)
<jdstrand> [ACTION] sbeattie to respin ia32-libds
<kees> *snicker*
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sbeattie to respin ia32-libds
<jdstrand> hehe
<jdstrand> sbeattie: I'd focus on natty first, then maybe do earlier releases?
<kees> s'okay, we'll have multiarch before natty releases, and then we won't need ia32-libs! :)
<jdstrand> \o/
<mdeslaur> kees: lol
<kees> slangasek: right? ^^ :)
<slangasek> can't promise ia32-libs will go away this cycle
<kees> :)
<slangasek> especially as Yokozar has been adding more packages to it on the other end
<slangasek> which I'm unhappy about but am not going to meddle with
<sbeattie> heh
<jdstrand> sbeattie: oh, if Yokozar's been doing that, natty may not need the respin anyway
<jdstrand> so no one took the akonadi one. I'll leave it on my todo liest then
<jdstrand> list
<jdstrand> that leaves vm-iso. how important is this?
<sbeattie> jdstrand: I have it on my personal todo list as well, but not sure when I'll get the round tuits.
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: what is the vm-iso one?
<sbeattie> (it == mysql-akonadi)
<jdstrand> sbeattie: k. if one of us starts, let's let the other know
<sbeattie> jdstrand: will do.
<jdstrand> [ACTION] mysql/akonadi work coordinated between sbeattie and jdstrand
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mysql/akonadi work coordinated between sbeattie and jdstrand
<jdstrand> oh, I can take the kernel ipc tests for qrt
<jdstrand> (fallout from dbus work)
<jdstrand> [ACTION] jdstrand to add kernel ipc tests to qrt
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand to add kernel ipc tests to qrt
<jdstrand> ok. back to vm-iso. how important is this? on the one hand, vmbuilder has been a handful, on the other hand it mostly works
<kees> jdstrand: I think it's as important as the person wanting to use it makes it. i.e. I think I was the one complaining about vmbuilder, so if I'm going to use vm-iso, I should work on it.
<jdstrand> (vm-iso is from ubuntu-qa-tools/vm-tools and it has been suggested we use that instead of vm-new for creating new VMs (see wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/TestingEnvironment)
<jdstrand> kees: fair enough
<jdstrand> kees: I don't think it needs an action or assignment
<kees> right
<jdstrand> I just had it on my list to bring up
<kees> cool by me
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: put it here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Roadmap
<jdstrand> does anyone have anything else from the rally that we should get out of our personal notes and assigned or put some where?
<jdstrand> [ACTION] jdstrand to add vm-iso work to Roadmap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand to add vm-iso work to Roadmap
<kees> I'll check my laptop, but I don't have that list handy at the moment.
<jdstrand> (excepting apparmor stuff)
<kees> (it was short, if not empty)
<jdstrand> that's cool
<jdstrand> I think that is everything on my list
<jdstrand> oh, want to talk to skaet about dapper eol
<jdstrand> skaet: you around? :)
 * jdstrand takes that as a no
<jdstrand> [ACTION] jdstrand to followup with skaet regarding dapper eol announcement
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jdstrand to followup with skaet regarding dapper eol announcement
<kees> btw, I'm going to replace u-maint with ubuntu-dev-tools's update-maintainer.
<jdstrand> kees: oh? not the other way around?
<kees> jdstrand: all the missing logic is included in udt's version now.
<jdstrand> I thought you said u-maint had some advantages over update-maintainer
<jdstrand> sweet :)
<jdstrand> no more 2 year lag for us anymore! :P
<kees> it did, but that's been fixed now, after I pointed it out. There's one feature left I'm going to forward.
<mdeslaur> \o/
<jdstrand> I'm sorry. 18 months
<mdeslaur> hehe
<jdstrand> [ACTION] kees to update umt to use update-maintainer
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kees to update umt to use update-maintainer
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] questions
<MootBot> New Topic:  questions
<jdstrand> does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<kees> nothing here
<jdstrand> alrighty then
<jdstrand> thanks everyone!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:52.
<kees> thanks jdstrand!
<jdstrand> sure! :)
<mdeslaur> thanks!
 * persia looks for stgraber
<cdbs> poolie, welcome!
<poolie> hi cdbs
<ari-tczew> persia: Are new DMB members know?
<persia> ari-tczew, No.  See https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-January/000653.html and followups
<bdrung> stgraber: meeting or not meeting?
<persia> I think we want a meeting, but it's a matter of chair.
<ari-tczew> persia: so yours memberships were extended, when we get to know new members?
<persia> ari-tczew, When they are decided.
<ari-tczew> persia: I'd like to vote, but I guess is out of time.
<persia> Rather the opposite: the nomination period just ended: a request for input from Ubuntu Developers will start soon.
<cdbs> ari-tczew, Did you apply for nomination?
<ari-tczew> cdbs: not me, I want to vote for someone else.
<cdbs> I just tried my luck, though I am pretty much sure I won't get in
<poolie> hi persia
<persia> Hey poolie
<ari-tczew> cdbs: your changes are more than me anyway :P
<persia> bdrung, stgraber seems afk, would you mind taking over?
<bdrung> k
<bdrung> cody-somerville, cjwatson, soren, stgraber: DMB meeting now!
<cody-somerville> I'm very sorry. I unfortunately won't be able to make today's meeting.
<cjwatson> oh, seriously?  bah
<bdrung> are we quorable?
<cody-somerville> I'll send a write-up re: Marco via e-mail in lieu
<persia> We are if cody-somerville can attend :)
<bdrung> (if that's a word)
<persia> quorate
 * cody-somerville is just about to head out the door to Ottawa otherwise he'd be here.
<cdbs> :(
<persia> So we're waiting on one of geser, stgraber, soren to be quorate
<poolie> perhaps the board should get bigger, or the quorum requirement should get smaller?
<bdrung> i pinged geser on devel
<persia> poolie, The two are tightly linked.  That said, if too much time passes, we could perhaps begin, and resolve outstanding votes via email (as poolie is here, by special arrangement)
<bdrung> ok, let's start then
<bdrung> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:16. The chair is bdrung.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Review of previous action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review of previous action items
<bdrung> poolie is here, so the first point is processed
 * cjwatson switches to his phone, sorry, had already booked family time without noticing this meeting so will have to get off the laptop
<bdrung> persia started the selection process for DMB renewal and requested a term extension for current DMB members
<persia> Does anyone have permission to flush the d-m-b@ moderation queue?  I think we have 10 nominees, but there's at least one I've had confirmed on IRC for whom I haven't seen the mail yet.
<cjwatson> persia: I do
<ari-tczew> persia: do you have informations who has been nominated?
<persia> ari-tczew, Yes.
<ari-tczew> persia: pm
<cjwatson> but it's empty anyway
<persia> Hmm..
<persia> Ah, went to me personally.  I'll forward.
 * persia needs to check headers more carefully
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Review progress of probationary period of Marco Rodrigues
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review progress of probationary period of Marco Rodrigues
<persia> Let's skip this, as cody-somerville is on his way to Ottawa and sending email.  Maybe [ACTION] it?
<bdrung> [ACTION] cody-somerville to write-up progress of probationary period of Marco Rodrigues
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cody-somerville to write-up progress of probationary period of Marco Rodrigues
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Confirm renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar
<MootBot> New Topic:  Confirm renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar
<persia> So, six months ago we granted bhavi probabtionary MOTU status.  We're supposed to review that.  Personally, I haven't seen any issues: has anyone else?
<bdrung> i haven't
<ari-tczew> Sorry for interrupt. I want to see bhavi still in MOTU.
<cjwatson> I
<cjwatson> er
<cjwatson> I've seen some teething troubles, but generally things seem OK now from my POV
<bdrung> do we need to vote?
<persia> Let's do so formally, as we have to pass to email anyway.
<bdrung> [VOTE] renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar
<MootBot> Please vote on:  renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<bdrung> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<persia> +1 : most of my concerns from the time of application have been addressed during the probationary period
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<bdrung> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3
<bdrung> [ACTION] collect vote from other DMB members via email
<MootBot> ACTION received:  collect vote from other DMB members via email
<geser> Hi
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Martin Pool's application for per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages
<MootBot> New Topic:  Martin Pool's application for per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages
<bdrung> geser: hi. we reached the quorum.
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Confirm renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar
<MootBot> New Topic:  Confirm renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar
<bdrung> geser: Six months ago we granted bhavi probabtionary MOTU status. We haven't seen any issue since then, did you? Are you ready to vote?
<geser> I didn't heard about any complains and I'm ready to vote
<bdrung> [VOTE] renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar
<MootBot> Please vote on:  renewal of MOTU status for Bhavani Shankar.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<poolie> hi, yes, i'm here
<poolie> so,
<poolie> i don't do a lot of packaging, but i think i know enough not to be dangerous
<persia> geser, ?  The rest of us voted.  Vote is at +3.
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<poolie> i think having ppu would help me push proposed bzr SRUs into -proposed, where they can be reviewed, and this would save people some time
<bdrung> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 1 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 1
<bdrung> summa summarum that's four of us
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Martin Pool's application for per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages
<MootBot> New Topic:  Martin Pool's application for per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages
<persia> poolie, When considering the differences between SRUs and security updates, what must one concern oneself about in terms of ensuring the user is not surprised by the output of bzr?
<bdrung> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MartinPool/DeveloperApplication
<poolie> persia, security updates are more conservative
<poolie> and i wouldn't expect our MRE would apply there
<bdrung> MRE?
<poolie> so, there should not be any changes to the output of bzr, unless they are absolutely necessary to fix the security problem
<poolie> bdrung, micro release exception
<poolie> the TB agreed that for instance bzr should upload 2.2.x into Maverick that originally shipped with 2.2.0
<poolie> this process is very halting at the moment and i'd like to see it flow more smoothly
<poolie> persia, is that the answer you were you asking  looking for, or are you asking about some more specific aspect of bzr output?
<persia> That's fine.  The only part of the differences between -security and -updates you didn't mention is about build-dependencies, which affect things, but aren't so important in the context of bzr.
<poolie> ah
<geser> poolie: so the most benefit of PPU for you would be SRU and normal uploads to natty still go through Debian and sync?
<poolie> right, so we/i know to not change them in updates either
<poolie> this is a little more conservative than is required but we can normally do that
<poolie> geser, basically
<poolie> we have a pretty good pipelines of maxb and jelmer uploading to debian, but it falls down a bit for ubuntu-specific uploads
<poolie> i would like to do some more ubuntu work generally, but that's the specific thing
<bdrung> poolie: are you involved in packaging bzr on the debian side?
<poolie> bdrung, mostly by committing to our packaging branches, and then jelmer or max will upload from there
<poolie> not quite so much of that at the moment as they've been taking more of the initiative
<poolie> oh, i might also mention that i did a lot of work on packaging bzr into PPAs
<persia> poolie, The latest version of bzr in maverick (representing the sort of SRU you're likely to be targeting) has an automatic patch in debian/patches : How do you think this might be better represented?
<bdrung> 2.2.0-1 and 2.2.1-0ubuntu1 added automatic patches to debian/patches
<poolie> good question, i'll look
<bdrung> same for 2.3.0~beta5-1
<poolie> i'm looking at debian-changes-2.2.3-0\~bazaar1\~maverick1
<poolie> the commentary on it says that this contains upstream changes introduced in that version
<cjwatson> the autocommentary can be a bit ... misleading :-)
<poolie> mm
<poolie> it looks like this is a change that should have been marked as a packaging patch, but this has got misclassified as coming in an upstream update
<cjwatson> it means changes to the upstream source (i.e. not debian/)
<cjwatson> it's just poor wording
<poolie> i see
<poolie> the point of this patch is that bzr ships a copy of a small xml library
<poolie> which i think we preferentially import
<poolie> and debian/ubuntu policy is to not do that, but rather to depend on it from a package
<poolie> which makes sense of course
<poolie> (this makes me wonder if we should in fact just cut it out of upstream now)
<persia> That makes perfect sense.  So, when applying that clearly distro-specific patch, how might one represent it to be obvious when encountering the source?
<poolie> persia, i think it would be better as an explicitly named patch, describing its purpose
<poolie> and mentioned in the series file
<persia> That's how I'd do it :)
<poolie> actually we don't prefentially import it
<poolie> as far as i can tell this patch has no effect, assuming that the external elementtree library is present, which it always should be
<poolie> this patch only seems to touch the fallback case?
<poolie> ah, there is a second part fixing what i guess is an api version skew with configobject
<poolie> so, one other thing i would think of doing is splitting them into the conceptually separate patches
<persia> That would be even better.
<poolie> and perhaps pushing the second upstream
<poolie> so?
 * persia doesn't have any more questions
 * geser neither
<persia> cjwatson, ?  bdrung ?
<bdrung> cjwatson: do you have questions?
<cjwatson> nope
<bdrung> poolie: oh, i have one: you wrote "In a small fraction of cases the emotional tone is unattractive and offputting"
<poolie> ah, this is under 'things i'd like to improve in ubuntu'?
<bdrung> yes
<bdrung> poolie: isn't the CoC enough? how can we do better?
<poolie> i think the CoC is a great document
<poolie> just having the document isn't enough
<poolie> those of you i know from this meeting, i consider to be forces in the right direction on this
<poolie> so i don't want to cast this as "you're getting it all wrong and I'll make the project nicer"
<poolie> but, it's a thing i care about
<persia> What do you think you can do to help improve the tone?
<poolie> one thing you can do is that if you see someone give a harsh reply on a bug or list, just also offer a not-harsh to-the-point reply too
<bdrung> poolie: we do that on irc channels
<poolie> i think generally speaking just setting an example of how things ought to be is good
<poolie> right
<poolie> do any of you think there's stuff i should do, or keep in mind, in this department?
<bdrung> but it's harder to do for bugs and lists
<poolie> oh, one other thing is
<poolie> it's remarkable how much more forgiving people will be of criticism if they get it promptly and if there is a way forward
<poolie> this is one reason i care a lot about patch piloting
<poolie> if there's a substantive criticism, fair enough, but it feels much worse if the person gets it after a month of silence
<poolie> or with no invitation to do something with it next
<poolie> this is kind of hard to fix because it's a matter of time, but you can try
<poolie> to put it ahead of other work
<bdrung> the second thing you dislike is the profusion of stacked or alternative toolchains makes packaging very complicated. any ideas of making packaging easier?
<poolie> heh
<bdrung> 3.0 (quilt) helped with getting rid of the different patch systems.
<poolie> i'd like to get source package branches to the point they are used for every package
<poolie> which would avoid some profusion
<poolie> using quilt there is definitely a good setp
<poolie> *step
<poolie> in other aspects of packaging, i do see it as a thing that erects a barrier to working in ubuntu, but
<bdrung> with source package branches for every package do you mean that the binary packages should be build from bzr branches instead of source tarballs?
<poolie> right, so the source package would be generated as part of building
<poolie> rather than uploaded by the developer
<poolie> obviously some work has to be done both to actually make this work at all, and to make it a compelling alternative
<poolie> but i would like to do it
<poolie> https://dev.launchpad.net/LEP/BuildFromBranchIntoMain
<bdrung> more ideas how to make packaging simpler?
<bdrung> would GUI tools help? should the amount of files in debian/ reduced?
<poolie> i think the Quickly idea of seeing packaging as part of the development toolchain is promising
<poolie> that's only going to cover a fraction of apps that were written that way
<poolie> separately, i think it's very interesting how ppas and recipe builds have taken off
<poolie> that gives people a useful spot between upstream and ubunut
<poolie> *ubuntu
<poolie> i think we can do a lot by building on that, to make it easier for people who care about a particular branch to get that packaged, perhaps cooperating with people who have more packaging expertise
<bdrung> re recipe builds, i have a bunch of projects where the bzr import fails and therefore i am unable to create daily builds.
<poolie> (and that connects too to making the main distribution more consistent with what's happening there)
<poolie> ok, i'd like to fix that
<poolie> do you have a bug, or can you tell me which branches they are?
<poolie> bug #
<bdrung> poolie: vlc, xmms2, audacious - let me search for the bug number
<bdrung> poolie: bug #402814 is the biggest blocker
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 402814 in Launchpad itself "Importing revisions with submodules is not supported" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/402814
<bdrung> poolie: http://overbenny.wordpress.com/2010/08/16/daily-builds-rock-but-bzr-imports-suck/
<poolie> ok
<poolie> i think the first of those bugs is fixed?
 * jelmer wakes up
<poolie> heh
<poolie> hi jelmer
<poolie> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/594294 is interesting; i haven't seen it before and it seems like it ought to be just a one line fix
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 594294 in Launchpad itself "Launchpad disallows valid CVS module of '.' from being imported" [Medium,Triaged]
<poolie> but perhaps it's actually complicated
<poolie> the submodules thing is on our list, though not at the top at the moment
<poolie> bdrung, how should we stay in touch about these things in the future?
<poolie> perhaps it's enough to just have bug reports, but i would like to hear other feedback about which ones really matter most
<jelmer> by weird coincidence, bug #519709 happens to be one of the bugs I'm working on at the moment
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 519709 in Launchpad itself "Import fails with infinite recursion through _reconstruct_manifest_and_flags_by_revid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/519709
<bdrung> poolie: i am subscribed to the bugs that affect me and i am always available via irc
<poolie> ok, likewise
<bdrung> let's continue the discussion after the meeting. we should vote.
<poolie> if you want to bump a bug up, just ask
<bdrung> poolie: in which channel?
<poolie> #bzr, #launchpad, #ubuntu-devel
<poolie> (hm, the latter of which i used to lurk in but this client doesn't seem to auto-join it; fixed)
<bdrung> [VOTE] Martin Pool to gain per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Martin Pool to gain per-package upload rights for bzr and related packages.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<bdrung> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bdrung. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<persia> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from persia. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<bdrung> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<persia> Just to make sure, we're voting on the extended list in the application, right?
<bdrung> yes
<bdrung> probably all bzr-* packages
<bdrung> poolie: congrats
<bdrung> [TOPIC] Select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Select a chair for the next meeting
<bdrung> who want to be chair?
<persia> I can chair.
<bdrung> you won ;)
<bdrung> [ACTION] persia to be chair in the next meeting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to be chair in the next meeting
<bdrung> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:43.
<bdrung> how do i give poolie PPU rights?
<persia> bdrung, Add him to ~ubuntu-dev and ask cjwatson nicely
<bdrung> cjwatson: can you please give poolie (~mbp) PPU rights?
<poolie> thanks, guys
<bdrung> poolie: btw, did you check the bzr upload with lintian?
<cjwatson> bdrung,poolie: done
<poolie> bdrung, do i in general? yes; i'll make a point of doing that
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-01
<bravvve> i have local network with machinesand a server under windows 2003 server and machines under windows xp,one of them is my workstation connected to the internet,i wan tu configure it like a update server for antivirus,how can i configure this on latest ubuntu server
<valorie> bravvve: this isn't a help channel
<valorie> just for meetings. try #ubuntu or #ubuntu-server
 * elky pokes lifeless: persia, freeflying? Are we meeting today?
<bravvve> valorie:ok
<valorie> good luck!
<zul> hi
<ttx> yo
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<smoser> o/
<RoAkSoAx> o/
<Daviey> o/
<Daviey> lets get this party started!
<Daviey> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is Daviey.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Daviey>  - SpamapS - Add "verify SRU fixes" to the ServerTeam/GettingInvolved wiki page.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
 * Daviey looks
<Daviey> looks DONE
<Daviey> \o/
 * smb stumbles in
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Current Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Current Development
<Daviey> robbiew ?
<robbiew> alpha2 is this week
<Daviey> Okay, we we have just hit soft freeze for A2 natty.
<robbiew> done
<robbiew> lol
<Daviey> anyone have any concerns regarding A2?
<smoser> i'm just happy it is this week. i was concerned when the archive closed last tuesday :)
<Daviey> hggdh, how is automated testing looking?
<robbiew> smoser: heh...we should have pitti falsely announce every time
<Daviey> okay, hggdh can update us in his section.
<Daviey> Related, is the upcoming Lucid point release of, 10.04.2.  Seems we are in good shape for this, zul, happen to know if there is anything we should be tracking that is release critical that we should be jumping on?
<hggdh> Daviey, it looks good, but I am not sure we already have an ISO to test...
<zul> Daviey: nope i think we are in good shape
<hallyn> when is freeze for 10.04.2?
<hallyn> there's a data corruption bug with qemu virtio > 1tb, i'd like to paper that over before freeze
<Daviey> hallyn, good qustion... i'm not sure there is a set date..
<Daviey> skaet, happen to know when the archive freeze for 10.04.1 is?
<zul> a while ago i think
<Daviey> 'freeze' == 'deadline' i guess
<skaet> Daviey,  10.04.2 was frozen on 1/20
<Daviey> zul, ah, you caught me
<Daviey> okay.. dandy, thanks skaet
<hallyn> bad me.  10.04.3 it is i guess
<Daviey> moving on...
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Upcoming Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Daviey> - Strata - Feb 1 -3, San Francisco (DustinKirkland - attending)
<Daviey> - SCALE9x - Feb 25 - 27, Los Angeles (ClintByrum attending, DustinKirkland presenting)
<Daviey> - FOSDEM - Feb 5-6, Brussels - Belgium (DaveWalker, JamesPage)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Upcoming Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Daviey> So, looks like kirkland can't be here today as he is at Strata.
<Daviey> SpamapS, Hello!  Fancy talking about SCALE9x ?
<ttx> kirkland should go to the openstack release party Thursday.
<Daviey> ttx, Ooooo.. i didn't know you had one planned!  I'm sure he'll be happy to know about it.
<ttx> I think its a free beer thing
<SpamapS> Daviey: sure.. unfortunately it looks like I will miss most of Sat. and all of Sun, but will be there for Fri.
<Daviey> ttx, /me wonders if it's too late to organise a flight.
<hallyn> Daviey: depends how closely you want to get to know the tsa guards i think
<Daviey> SpamapS, Well - will be interesting to hear what you bring away from it.
<ttx> Daviey: for you yes. You shoud rather arrive Friday night so that we have a few beers at the FOSDEM beer night
<Daviey> Okay, James and myself will both be at FOSDEM this weekend... ariving friday evening
<zul> hallyn: hah tsa was not that bad
<SpamapS> Daviey: yeah, was hoping to attend all 3 days but travel is conflicting. :-/
<ttx> Daviey, kirkland: http://www.openstack.org/blog/2011/01/openstack-meetup-and-open-bar-in-california/
<Daviey> We'll get a chance to talk to plenty of upstreams including openstack, puppet and some others.  James also mentioned that there will be a java event, which sounds good.
<Daviey> Equally, plenty of Debian devs will be there - so should be a good chance to meet all of our upstreams.
<Daviey> SpamapS, :(
<Daviey> [ACTION] ttx to buy Daviey and JamesPage beer at FOSDEM, friday night.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to buy Daviey and JamesPage beer at FOSDEM, friday night.
<Daviey> \o/
<Daviey> okay, great - moving on
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<ttx> Daviey: only if you ensure ambiance in my "Why we hate java" talk
<hggdh> well, here I am
<Daviey> \o/
<hggdh> (1) automated ISO tests -- going well, I had some updates done to the marvelous ubuntu-server-iso-testing
<Daviey> hggdh, The automated testing of the daily ISO's... anything scary caught?
<hggdh> apart from my issues on getting the bloody d-i syslog in, no
<Daviey> heh
<hggdh> only one iffy, samba, wbinfo -u is not returning the current user
<Daviey> hggdh, Anything else we should be concerned about?
<Daviey> eeek
<hggdh> I *think* this may be related to running in background, without a real login
<Daviey> samba had an upload in the last couple of days as it wasn't starting correctly
<Daviey> could that be it?
<SpamapS> hggdh: been talking with jhunt about adding some boot-up / shut-down tests for the automated testing...
<hggdh> IDK, still testing. Today's image still fails
<hggdh> SpamapS, that would be nice indeed
<Daviey> :(
<hggdh> even more if it helps to test upstart integration
<SpamapS> hggdh: probably will have to wait until UDS but wanted to put it on your radar.. we are particularly interested in testing with , say, all of the server seed packages installed.. does the system boot-up/shut-down properly 100 times in a row
<zul> Daviey: that would be the winbind daemon i think
<Daviey> zul, ack
<hggdh> SpamapS, duly noted, sir, thank you
<hggdh> re. Alpha2: we are still waiting for official (tentative) images to be released
<Daviey> hggdh, okay - great!  Can you keep us posted on anything scary, and talk out of band about A2 testing/
<hggdh> *if* there is no change to today's ISO, we are doing *very* well indeed
<Daviey> 3 cheers!
<hggdh> :-)
<Daviey> okay, anyone have anything for hggdh ?
<Daviey> super, thanks hggdh
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<hggdh> welcome
<smb> hi
<Daviey> hello smb
<smb> I have not got much this week
<Daviey> This is a *good* thing, surely?
 * smb seems to have spent infinite time on natty and t1.micros
<smoser> he doesn't have much because he fixed all the problems
<smb> Sadly there are always some left. :-P
<Daviey> smoser, my problems extend outside the kernel space :)
<smoser> but if anyone wants some fun, bug 708920
<Daviey> okay, anyone have anything for smb ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 708920 in linux-ec2 (Ubuntu) "Strange 'fork/clone' blocking behavior under high cpu usage on EC2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/708920
<Daviey> smoser, you must have!
<smoser> complete with HD youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbURfuAmtXw
<smb> That is one thing to look into next
<smb> and the missing console and ...
<smb> And should I run out of ec2 things there still should be the rare nfs race somewhere
<smb> ..
<Daviey> poor smb...
<Daviey> smb, is that everything?
<smb> yup
<Daviey> super, thanks
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Doucmentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Doucmentation Team (sommer)
 * Daviey motions to remove this from the current agenda
<Daviey> seems sommer is not able to regularly attend... :(
 * Daviey suggests adding it AdHoc.
<Daviey> carryover...
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)
<Daviey> I imagine kim0 is unable to attend at the moment, due to issues outside his control.
<smoser> that is nuts
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<ttx> Daviey, JamesPage: when do you arrive ?
 * Daviey checks
<Daviey> ttx, Arrive in Brussels at 17:33 hrs
<Daviey> ttx, you?
 * Daviey takes it out of band.
<Daviey> Any other other biz?
<ttx> I'm already i nBrussels
<Daviey> oh :)
<Daviey> ok
<Daviey> 3
<Daviey> 2
<Daviey> 1
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey>  Tuesday, February 8 2011 16:00 UTC
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:23.
<Daviey> thanks all.
<rtdos> is there a reason gdm themes were taken out or disabled in the newer releases (post 8.10) of ubuntu ?
<charlie-tca> major changes in gnome-display-manger made it too difficult
<rtdos> oh. nobody's come up with an alternative, yet?
 * JFo waves
<kamal> o/
 * smb is there
 * ara waves
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:01. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<apw> o/
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (bjf)
<bjf> Nothing new
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (8 bugs, 10 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Alpha 2 Milestoned Bugs (19 across all packages (down 3)) ====
<JFo>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (205 across all packages (down 6)) ====
<JFo>  * 17 linux kernel bugs (down 3)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 7 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Maverick Updates Bugs ====
<JFo>  * 55 Linux Bugs (down 1)
<JFo> ==== Lucid Updates Bugs
<JFo>  * 91 Linux Bugs (down 4)
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:94 (down 10) ====
<JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
<JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Natty Bug Handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-bug-handling
<JFo> * Did some research into kerneloops at the end of last week. I have some data from Brian Murray as to some tools he already has that we can make use of. I'm continuing that work this week
<JFo> * started looking over our documentation on kernel testing. I have some notes and I am retesting a few of the steps. I finally have a natty test machine to work with.
<JFo> * As part of the changes I have been making to the arsenal scripts, I have been looking at the messages we put into comments on bugs and their applicability to specific architectures. I have some notes here, but I am still finishing up on my documentation before I make those changes.
<JFo> * I think the apport hooks verbiage item needs to be postponed. There was apparently some work that I had wanted to look at that has already been done. This item was mainly to familiarize myself with the hooks and begin learning how they could be changed.
<JFo> * The arsenal flow documentation has been taking forever to complete. I didn't get much done on it this week as I had other priorities.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: Review of the Stable Maintenance Process (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardware-kernel-n-stable-process-review
<sconklin> |
<sconklin> | We continue to make improvements to our tools and
<sconklin> | processes. Most notably, work on CVEs has been
<sconklin> | shifted to being handled much like bug fixes,
<sconklin> | and that work load is now being shared by more
<sconklin> | members of the kernel team.
<sconklin> |
<sconklin> | The stable kernel team was able to complete the
<sconklin> | last cycle in two weeks, but all uploades are
<sconklin> | still awaiting being copied to -proposed.
<sconklin> |
<sconklin> | For Dapper, Hardy, and Karmic, this is because
<sconklin> | there has been no feedback in the tracking bugs
<sconklin> | indicating whether the -proposed kernels even boot.
 * smb is currently doing some Dapper tests
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Cert. Team  (ara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Cert. Team  (ara)
<ara> Hey!
<ara> Nothing to report this week, as we are not testing SRUs this week
<ara> We are focusing on testing 10.04.2 images
<ara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Ecryptfs (jj)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Ecryptfs (jj)
<jjohansen> - Reworked rename as there was an interaction with d_move.  Still need to investigate layering interactions with d_move more.
<jjohansen> - updated the documentation to the current state
<jjohansen> - finally pushed out to the ecryptfs-devel mailing list
<jjohansen> - After talking to tyhicks last week started investigating adding storing long name into the ecryptfs header instead of an xattr.  This should be a small extension to the current patch, and both could be supported.
<jjohansen> - It has not been pushed to lkml yet, (giving tyhicks a first pass at it)
<jjohansen> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Natty (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Natty (apw)
<apw> o/
<apw> Following a long period of instability the x86 suspend issues and some ARM display issues seem to be resolved.  We have therefore uploaded our first (and second) v2.6.38 based kernels, the main distro kernel is now at v2.6.38-rc2 + git.  This kernel seems to be working well on i386, x86_64, and on arm.  This will be the kernel for natty-alpha-2, for which we froze today.  Upstream v2.6.38-rc3 has now released and we will upload this as soon as the mil
<apw> estone freeze lifts, likely on friday.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Maverick/Lucid/Karmic/Hardy/Dapper (sconklin / bjf)
<sconklin> Partial status today due to tool failure and lack of prep by me.
<sconklin> Here are the packages still in -proposed:
<sconklin> || Package                                    || Upd/Sec              || Proposed             ||  TiP || Verified ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || dapper   linux-source-2.6.15               || 2.6.15-55.90         || 2.6.15-55.91         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || hardy    linux                             || 2.6.24-28.81         || 2.6.24-28.84         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> || karmic   linux-ec2                         || 2.6.31-307.23        || 2.6.31-307.24        ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> || ---      linux                             || 2.6.31-22.70         || 2.6.31-22.71         ||    0 ||        0 ||
<sconklin> ||                                            ||                      ||                      ||      ||          ||
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<JFo> Incoming Bugs
<JFo>  108 Natty Bugs (up 15)
<JFo>  1133 Maverick Bugs (up 17)
<JFo>  997 Lucid Bugs (up 3)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 32 maverick bugs (up 2)
<JFo>   * 75 lucid bugs (up 1)
<JFo>   * 6 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 221 maverick bugs (up 3)
<JFo>   * 204 lucid bugs (up 1)
<JFo>   * 38 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 2 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 15 maverick bugs (down 2)
<JFo>   * 2 lucid bugs (down 1)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> Today is the Bug Day for New status bugs. This is something that I would like to hold again next week so that I can get new status bugs back under control
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> Some of you have probably noticed the massive jump in bugs on our Hot List. This is due to the inclusion of 'kernel-key' tagged bugs as well as all regression-proposed bugs. It is very likely that many of the regression proposed bugs are no longer valid due to those kernels having been shipped.
<JFo> I have also been getting an inordinate amount
<JFo> of direct pings or 'drive-bys' on random bugs
<JFo> I have not meen responding to most of them as they interrupt me when I am in the middle of something, but I am working ot identify important ones.
<JFo> I'll likely begin asking some of you to take a quick look at a few of those to aid in determining if they are fit for the list.
<JFo> ..
<apw> JFo, well they need moving to regression updates
<JFo> ok
<apw> (the regression proposed ones)
<apw> and they are more serious then
<JFo> indeed
<JFo> I just have not been doing that as yet
<JFo> it is something I need to add to my duties.
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<apw> o/
<bjf> apw, go
<skaet> o/
<apw> on the topic of regression-proposed i suspect we need to
<apw> firebomb the lot, see if any are valid against the latest updates kerenl
<apw> as we are wallowing much history
<apw> ..
<JFo> I agree
<JFo> ..
 * apw is ..
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:16.
<skaet> hm...
<JFo> thanks bjf
<apw> skaet, :( oops
<bjf> skaet, sorry
<JFo> lol
<bjf> skaet go!!!!
<skaet> no worries
<skaet> A2 release notes need to be scrubbed
<apw> skaet, don't worry about mootbot, we are still here ...
<apw> skaet, got a link
<skaet> apw,  can you take a pass and add in the differences for A2 to highlight, and any of the bugs needed
<apw> skaet, sure
<skaet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/TechnicalOverview
<skaet> Its been started for A2, but needs some scrubbing to remove invalid
 * skaet will be scrubbing today
<apw> skaet, i see it, will let you know when i've poked it
<skaet> apw,  thanks!
<bjf> i guess that's really it this time
 * skaet is going to recruit bjf next time she's traveling for the release meeting ;)
<skaet> thanks bjf
<bjf> heh
 * rtdos raises hand o/
<rtdos> just curious: is there a reason there has been more of a significant increase in system requirements in recent releases of ubuntu than in previous versions?
<bjf> rtdos, you can go to #ubuntu-kernel and ask there, the meeting is over
<rtdos> thanks bjf...dang, late again. ok. thanks again. :)
<JFo> we are a pretty efficient group when it comes to our meetings :)
<rtdos> thx. i now added them to my reminders. :)
 * stgraber waves
 * fagan waves
 * ajmitch yawns
<fagan> hehe
<wendar> hi
 * ajmitch cannot stay for the full hour today
<fagan> I didnt hear back from statik and mvo isnt about so we can go ahead
<highvoltage> heya
<fagan> hey highvoltage
<fagan> so should I go ahead and start the meeting
<ajmitch> yes please
<fagan> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:02. The chair is fagan.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<fagan> [TOPIC] Review action items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review action items
<fagan> [LINK] http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AppReviewBoard/Agenda
<fagan> so whats up first?
<wendar> looks like we didn't complete the action items on the agenda
<fagan> yeah
<wendar> definitely want to carry over the one about the wiki page guide for developers
<wendar> I don't have any opinion on the other two
<fagan> well we can go ahead and talk about the first thing
<ajmitch> does anyone have info about the state of quickly & cdbs in natty, or should that be added as something to look at?
<wendar> didrocks reports that the fixes are ready to go for natty
<fagan> ajmitch: I heard the /opt thing was blocked on something though
<wendar> I don't know if the updated packages are in natty yet
<fagan> ive been meaning to ask about that
<fagan> i can do that after this meeting
<wendar> maybe add an action item for next meeting to ask didrocks?
<ajmitch> ok, checking up on that was pretty much the last thing for the app I was checking over
<fagan> yeah I can do that
<wendar> fagan: cool
<ajmitch> thanks
<fagan> ok so ill look into that so
<fagan> is there a command to tell the bot about an action item
<ajmitch> [ACTION]
<fagan> oh cool
<ajmitch> I think only you can use it since you started the meeting
<fagan> [ACTION] fagan to look into natty changes for /opt
<MootBot> ACTION received:  fagan to look into natty changes for /opt
<fagan> good
<fagan> moving on
<fagan> developer wiki page on creating submissions
<fagan> [TOPIC] developer wiki page on creating submissions
<MootBot> New Topic:  developer wiki page on creating submissions
<wendar> I'm one of the responsible parties listed in the agenda, I'll commit to work on it in the next two weeks
<fagan> ok so this came up the last meeting if im correct?
<wendar> carried over a couple of meetings, yeah
<fagan> I said ill help out on that too since I came from a docs background but ill be more editing since im pretty busy at the moment with college
<wendar> that's good
<fagan> so you can take the lead on it wendar
<fagan> ill just do little bits here and there
<wendar> okay
 * wendar bumps it from black to red in her todo list
<fagan> anything to talk about on this topic or was it all said at the last meeting
<ajmitch> I think enough was said at the last meeting
<fagan> cool
 * ajmitch read the logs, at least
<fagan> [ACTION] fagan and wendar to do some wiki pages on creating submissions
<MootBot> ACTION received:  fagan and wendar to do some wiki pages on creating submissions
<fagan> ok so the second one is for the list so ill post about that after the meeting
<fagan> and the third thing I forgot about so we should move on to the reviews I think
<fagan> since we have enough here for the moment to pass an app I think
<wendar> yes, 3 is quorum
<fagan> ok so does anyone have an app ready for review?
 * wendar has 2
<fagan> oh cool pick one to do first
<ajmitch> almost, was just seeing the status of quickly & co before recommending changes
<wendar> should we do status on ajmitch's app first in case he has to leave?
<stgraber> ajmitch: as we are pushing to 10.10 and won't have the new quickly/cdbs/... in there, does it really matter ?
<fagan> go ahead ajmitch
<ajmitch> stgraber: it was more to do with debian/rules generation from quickly
<stgraber> ajmitch: ok
<fagan> any news to share ajmitch ?
<ajmitch> apart from that & some things to fill in in debian/copyright for the author, the app itself looks to be alright. I've been mostly talking with the author in the askubuntu chat & will paste the transcript into the bug
<fagan> ok cool
<ajmitch> it's also rather simple, 120 lines of python to review
<fagan> what is this pytask?
<ajmitch> simple-stopwatch
<ajmitch> statik was looking at pytask
<fagan> ok so do you want to review it today
<ajmitch> not without fixing debian/rules to go into /opt - the app itself will already look in the right place for sys.path
<fagan> ok so then we should do one of wendar's ones then
<ajmitch> yep
<fagan> which one then?
<wendar> start with news
<fagan> [TOPIC] Review news
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review news
<wendar> paste the link?
<fagan> em getting the link to paste :)
<fagan> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/703832
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/703832
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 703832 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: news 0.4.5" [Undecided,In progress]
<wendar> This one was new at the last meeting.
<wendar> The developer was very responsive, so we got a quick turn around on the changes for this one.
<wendar> I did code/packaging/security review, with some changes to the code, and more changes to the packaging (especially for /opt).
<wendar> I recommend it for approval.
<fagan> im just looking down through it
<fagan> ill give everyone 2 minutes to have a look
<fagan> ok I cant see anything wrong here
<fagan> anything stand out for anyone else?
<ajmitch> was just downloading, sorry :)
<fagan> :)
<fagan> it does ship a lib isnt there something in the guidelines that says thats a problem?
<fagan> oh its part of the project he just split out a part into a lib so its not exactly a problem
<wendar> it's fine as long as it's in /opt
<fagan> ok thats fine on my end
<fagan> ajmitch stgraber ok?
<stgraber> yep, looks good
<wendar> as a side comment, I note that /opt install required some debian/rules hacks, I'm looking forward to the tools updates in natty
<ajmitch> removing the .ex files in debian/ would have been nice, but not necessary
<fagan> ok good so vote then
<fagan> [VOTE]
<MootBot> Please vote on: .
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<wendar> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from wendar. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<fagan> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from fagan. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<ajmitch> one sec
<ajmitch> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ajmitch. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<fagan> is it [END VOTE] ?
<ajmitch> one word, I think
<fagan> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<fagan> cool
<fagan> approved
<fagan> so wendar you said you had another to vote on
<wendar> SIR
<fagan> [TOPIC] Review SIR
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review SIR
<fagan> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/644066
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-app-review-board/+bug/644066
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 644066 in Ubuntu Application Review Board "Application Review Request: SIR 2.1" [Undecided,In progress]
<wendar> This is a little app that does image resizing.
<wendar> This one was slow, but mostly that's our problem getting the ARB process fixes in place, and the usual Holiday slow down.
<wendar> I checked in with the developer last week and he applied my final fixes and re-released.
<wendar> I recommend it for approval.
<fagan> seems ok to me
<ajmitch> version number?
<fagan> 2.1.2
<ajmitch> yes, but it doesn't appear to follow the versioning that we want for extras, would this be changed before an upload?
<wendar> ajmitch: yes, I'll have him release a final version with the right version number
<fagan> I think we can do the vote anyway that is pretty trivial
<wendar> I didn't want to make him take up the "official" version number in his PPA before he was ready to release
<fagan> stgraber: good?
<stgraber> yep
<fagan> [VOTE] SIR
<MootBot> Please vote on:  SIR.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<ajmitch> alright
<fagan> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from fagan. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<wendar> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from wendar. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<ajmitch> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ajmitch. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<fagan> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<fagan> cool approved
<fagan> anything else to review?
<ajmitch> doesn't look like it :)
<fagan> anything else to talk about then
<wendar> no new submissions
<wendar> chair for the next meeting?
<fagan> well so we can finish early then I just got pinged about something important anyway so its good timing
<wendar> anyone want to volunteer to chair the next meeting?
 * ajmitch can chair the next one, be warned it's 7 AM for me  :)
<wendar> ajmitch: great. It's not an intense job, so 7am should be fine (with a little coffee :)
<ajmitch> ok, will do
<fagan> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:46.
<highvoltage> I'm here I'm here!!!
<highvoltage> oh, I'm in time (shew)
<popey> :D
 * drubin is here
 * popey pokes czajkowski stgraber 
 * highvoltage wonders if Rafael is though
<popey> could be a short one!
<czajkowski> ohh
<czajkowski> meeting
<highvoltage> I always feel like a medium or something when I say this... but...
<czajkowski> forgot about that wondered why my phone beeped
<highvoltage> Rafael, are you present?
 * popey shakes the table
<highvoltage> rofl
<highvoltage> my crystal ball says no
<drubin> shortest membership meeting ever!
<popey> :)
<sadeq> hey got a q?
<popey> One thing we should do is promote http://ubuntu-news.org/2011/01/30/regional-membership-boards-restaffing-2/
<czajkowski> sounds good
<popey> fire away sadeq
<czajkowski> sadeq: sure
<sadeq> not Asia?
<popey> Right now it's EMEA
<highvoltage> indeed, who's leaving, btw? or have we had those 2 positions open for a while?
<highvoltage> or have policy changed?
<popey> we have
<popey> iirc
<pleia2> yeah
<popey> \o/ pleia2
<pleia2> I think at the most you guys only had 7 members, while the other two had 8
<pleia2> so we're replacing someone who stepped down, and bumping you to 8 (quorum remains at 4) like the other ones
<highvoltage> ok
<czajkowski> ah ok
<pleia2> and hopefully this means czajkowski can take a break from time to time :)
<czajkowski> was this decided by CC to increase the numbers?
<sadeq> I am candidate from asia, but there were not a proper date, I asked the IRC they told this time!
<pleia2> I don't think it was really a formal decision that was talked about, more of a general getting the councils into sync
<czajkowski> sadeq: you can still apply to EMEA if you like
<highvoltage> I have no problem reviewing sadeq's application if we have quorum
<czajkowski> pleia2: coolio, thanks :) sounds good
<sadeq> I do :)
<czajkowski> sadeq: would you like us to view your application if there are enough of us here
<czajkowski> are we Quorum ?
<sadeq> yes, please!
<highvoltage> if pleia2 can lend a hand, then yes
<popey> we are at 4
<popey> popey czajkowski highvoltage drubin
<highvoltage> oh right, we are indeed
 * popey pokes ogra in case he's around
<drubin> highvoltage: We can do it
<popey> great
<drubin> I have scheduled this time any way
<popey> czajkowski: want to operate the bot?
 * ogra feels poked
<popey> \o/
<czajkowski> sure
<czajkowski> #meeting
 * drubin makes note that highvoltage was better then the bot! :)
<ogra> sorry in another conversation
 * popey knows the magic spell to invoke an ogra now
<czajkowski> bah!!!!!
<highvoltage> drubin: I have been replaced by a perl script
<popey> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:09. The chair is popey.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<drubin> highvoltage: Never! The perl script *tried* to replace you
<czajkowski> even better
<czajkowski> :D
<popey> [TOPIC] sadeq for Ubuntu Membership..
<MootBot> New Topic:  sadeq for Ubuntu Membership..
<popey> sadeq: could you please paste in a little detail about yourself
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SadeqZabihi
<highvoltage> sadeq: can you paste your wiki page / launchpad links too? thanks :)
<sadeq> yes, Hi, My name is Sadeq Zabihi from Herat, Afghanistan, just turned to 20, system administrator,  open-source activist. I started using Ubuntu in 2008 (when entered CS Faculty) I have been involved in Ubuntu contribution since late 2008.
<popey> https://launchpad.net/~sadeq
 * popey went and got them from Asia
<highvoltage> ah popey is ahead of me :)
 * stgraber waves
<popey> \o/
<sadeq> Before everything I have to apology for my Internet connection inconsistency and instability, but that is common here. (I call it NONternet) :) .
<popey> :)
<popey> A "Notwork" as opposed to a Network
<sadeq> somehow :)
<popey> sadeq: please give us a moment to review your pages, thanks!
<ogra> you can turn one into the other ;)
<highvoltage> sadeq: that's ok, I hear it's possible to even fax twitter updates these days!
<sadeq> yehh, i saw what googles did!
<popey> Nice testimonials there sadeq
<sadeq> tnx
<popey> Do you burn CD's yourself and distribute them?
<czajkowski> very nice indeed
<popey> How does that happen?
<drubin> fb page seem very active
<sadeq> yes, WE do
<sadeq> should I add more comments?
<popey> we can just discuss here
<popey> feel free to tell us anything you think supports your application
<sadeq> I mean add comments here :0
<sadeq> ok
<sadeq> I have believed that Ubuntu could be used as an everyday OS even in Afghanistan!
<highvoltage> sadeq: if you could change anything in the Ubuntu project, what would you change?
<sadeq> I would do add some more applications
<sadeq> for people like us, Notwork I mean
<popey> offline apps?
<sadeq> yep,
<czajkowski> sadeq: how do you get people involved in your team ? you're both a team leader and contact?
<highvoltage> so you would add more applucations that are less reliant on the Internet?
<sadeq> http://hubuntu-af.org/projects.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://hubuntu-af.org/projects.html
<sadeq> Yes, I do most of Internet things , because I have a big Internet at university
<sadeq> But we have people in socialization team, "facebook" they do the most!
<sadeq> highvoltage > what we did, after a long survey, we estimate what people need here, then added them
<highvoltage> I've found facebook very popular for Edubuntu, we have more people following it on facebook than on twitter and identica combined. It's horrible for privacy but great for promoting stuff, at least in my experience :)
<popey> yeah, and people know how to use it :)
<popey> and spread stuff virally :)
<popey> (in a good way)
<czajkowski> nods
<sadeq> it was our customization project which WINS
<popey> tell us more about that
<czajkowski> I think any medium used to promote Ubuntu is good .
<highvoltage> sadeq: in South Africa we also have bandwidth issues, at release parties we usually copy entire ubuntu mirrors for people who want them. do you do something similar there?
<sadeq> I started implementing my idea from CS faculty PC-Pools, going through their servers.
<sadeq> Now we have biggest IT center in Afghanistan with 100 PCs built on Ubuntu clients and Debian servers.
<popey> Nice.
<ogra> cool
<popey> sadeq: do you have a local repo there?
<sadeq> actually we do it somethimes! mostly the LTS one
<czajkowski> wow impressive wel done
<sadeq> people from India, Iran even Germany gave them as souvenier to us
<czajkowski> sadeq: what issues do you encourter besides bandwith ?
<sadeq> popey > we do!
<highvoltage> great. I've found that that reduces the bandwidth problems at least to a small degree
<popey> I've often thought a USB disk makes a great portable repository :)
<sadeq> highvoltage > training
<popey> sadeq: how often does the team get together to meet?
<sadeq> > materials, but actually our training project is doing really nice study grouos every semester break
<czajkowski> sadeq: 20:17 < czajkowski> sadeq: what issues do you encourter besides bandwith ?
<sadeq> normally Monthly
<popey> sadeq: is that in the real world or online you meet?
<sadeq> czajkowski > tarining, materials , packages!
<czajkowski> ok
<sadeq> popey > real world!
<popey> great!
<popey> are people spread out or quite local?
<sadeq> popey> normally quite local, but sometime with friends out of herat , we do by the net or IRC
<sadeq> continue > We became big and made connections with some friends in Kabul, Mazzar and Qandahar cities so we got Afghanistan Ubuntu Loco Team for a more centralized country-wide place for contribution.
<popey> You know, we in the west don't tend to hear 'good news' stories coming out of Afghanistan, so it's quite refreshing to hear that you're doing great work out there.
<sadeq> popey> I know what you are hearing, it is quite a battle!
<popey> sadeq: do you have much opposition from Windows users? Or are people happy to make the switch?
<popey> I'm wondering if you have the same issues we have, on top of everything else.
<highvoltage> popey: western goverments probably don't want people to hear good news from there!
<highvoltage> </offtopic>
<popey> :)
<sadeq> popey> not at first, because changing cause lots of problems, but now with what we are providing they are happy
 * drubin is ready to vote
 * highvoltage too
 * popey too
 * ogra too
 * stgraber too
<ogra> just the bot isnt :P
<sadeq> :
<popey> haha
<popey> dont talk about czajkowski like that!
<czajkowski> oi
 * czajkowski peers at ogra 
<sadeq> sorry if  something missed :(
<popey> sadeq: our silly humour
<ogra> :)
<highvoltage> sadeq: nothing missed, just hang on for a minute while czajkowski cranks up the bot
<czajkowski> well popey humour, tis special :)
<sadeq> popey: haha
<popey> [VOTE] Please vote *only* *EMEA* *BOARD* +1/0/-1 for sadeq to gain Ubuntu Membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Please vote *only* *EMEA* *BOARD* +1/0/-1 for sadeq to gain Ubuntu Membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<popey> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from popey. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<czajkowski> highvoltage: pay attention tis popey controling it
<popey> love the work you're doing!
<czajkowski> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from czajkowski. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<czajkowski> well done
<drubin> +1 [Great contrbutions]
<MootBot> +1 received from drubin. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<highvoltage> +1 [ great loco team effort and local advocacy ]
<MootBot> +1 received from highvoltage. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<ogra> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ogra. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<popey> #endvote
<popey> Win!
<highvoltage> czajkowski: sorry, force of habbit :)
<sadeq> all: thanx
<ogra> congrats sadeq
<highvoltage> sadeq: congratulations and welcome!
<popey> Congratulations sadeq! I look forward to hearing more about the work you do on planet ubuntu! :D
<stgraber> popey: isn't it [ENDVOTE] ?
<czajkowski> highvoltage: you're doing it next time so :p
<czajkowski> sadeq: well done
<popey> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 6
<sadeq> thank you, let c what we can do more here!
<popey> *blush*
<czajkowski> *grin*
<drubin> Congradulations
<drubin> is that all ?
<ogra> looks like
<sadeq> at is almost midnight here, should I go to sleep and dream Ubuntu or ?
<popey> Ok, added sadeq to ubuntumembers on launchpad
<popey> sadeq: You are now allowed to sleep! :D
<popey> yup, thats all
<czajkowski> sadeq: thanks for coming
<sadeq> popey> hahaha
<drubin> Cheers thanks
<popey> any thing else before I end the meeting?
<czajkowski> eh... nope
<popey> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:28.
<stgraber> nope
<popey> rock on
<ogra> yay
<czajkowski> lovely jubbly
<popey> thanks everyone!
 * ogra likes quick ones 
<popey> thats what...
<czajkowski> ogra: indeed
<ogra> meetings i mean
<ogra> :P
<czajkowski> so man y comments, so not the channel to do so
<stgraber> ;)
<sadeq> good midnight all :)
<highvoltage> oh sorry I got distracted by work
<highvoltage> ah meeting is over, goodnight then :)
<drubin> gnite
<ogra> night
<czajkowski> Time for of The Cape
<pleia2> We don't really have anything on the CC agenda so probably no meeting now
<pleia2> just announced new IRCC this today: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/2011-February/001206.html
<pleia2> also worthy of note, we've got some spots on the regional membership boards, so if you're interested the details are here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-news-team/2011-January/001245.html
<kvir4567> http://bashtube.ru/video/7088/
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-02
<robbiew> o/
<robbiew> 3min to go
<surbhi> o/
<ev> hi
<robbiew> 1 min
<mvo> hi
<cjwatson> here
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Texas
<MootBot> New Topic:  Texas
<robbiew> apparently we can't cope with cold weather AT ALL!!!!!
<robbiew> rolling power outages SUCK
<robbiew> okay...done with that
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<barry> dang.  we missed all the bad weather.  rain only here in dc
<robbiew> barry: yeah...but that's the thing...it's just cold in Austin
<robbiew> but apparently too many people need it to be 85F or something in their homes
<robbiew>  /rant
<robbiew> okay...who's first
<robbiew> mvo?
<mvo> not quite ready, sorry
<mvo> I can do the short version though :)
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> barry?
<barry> python27 archive analysis; attended release team meeting; bug 711468 (python-vigra fails to install); integration of udd docs with packaging guide; i am patch piloting today (after meeting)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 711468 in libvigraimpex (Ubuntu) "python-vigra cannot be installed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/711468
<barry> done
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> ev?
<ev> (done)
<ev> Trying to boot the El Torito code from an Ubuntu ISO on a USB disk, in the hopes of chainloading into it and avoiding the bootloader version incompatibility problem (you can't make 10.04 USB disks from 11.04).  Currently digging through the isohybrid/isolinux source to understand its black magic in this space.  Working on understanding enough X internals to write a patch to not clear the framebuffer on exit, so we can have a nice transition between the 
<ev> Fixing bugs in usb-creator and ubiquity.
<robbiew> "the El Torito code"?
<ev> the boot code area of an ISO9660 image
<robbiew> oh..heh...I never knew it was called that
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> learn something new everyday
<robbiew> thnx ev
<ev> sure thing :)
<robbiew> doko is on holiday...hopefully not injuring himself further on the ski slopes
<robbiew> jhunt?
<jhunt> Spent most of the time since last week investigating and testing bug
<jhunt> 672177 on lucid+maverick+natty. Got rather a funky script now that does
<jhunt> repeated reboots and logs activity and fsck output and checks for
<jhunt> orphaned inodes. Investigating this bug was rather a voyage of
<jhunt> discovery: lots of package juggling fun but also a bit of
<jhunt> head-scratching until cjwatson enlightened me on why the sysvinit bzr
<jhunt> branch didn't correlate with the binary packages (importer failure - bug
<jhunt> 708655).  Wrote "Section 0" of
<jhunt> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation/GettingTheSource
<jhunt> based on info from cjwaton. Created lp:~jamesodhunt/+junk/upstart-docs
<cjwatson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_torito#Etymology
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_torito#Etymology
<jhunt> for some beta upstart man pages. Dash of Upstart bug reviewing.
<jhunt> EOT
<ev> cjwatson: didn't know that.  Thanks, that's awesome.
<robbiew> jhunt: that's all you did?
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> whew
<robbiew> jhunt is a machine!
<barry> jhunt: i will take a look at that link.  i'm working on moving all the wiki docs into reST docs and integrate w/ the packaging uide
<barry> er, guide
<jhunt> It's just the short summary lines that make it look like I'm productive :)
<robbiew> surbhi: ?
<surbhi> * completed the util linux bug: 579858
<surbhi> * finished the work to create btrfs subvolumes during installation
<surbhi> * uploaded the patches (to mdadm bug 615186 and136252) for mdadm auto assembly fixes, waiting for them to get sponsored
<surbhi> * working on event driven initramfs - trying to make mountall work, figuring out why its failing in its interaction with upstart
<surbhi> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 579858 in util-linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "umount segfault on shutdown when unmounting autofs mountpoint" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/579858
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 615186 in mdadm (Ubuntu) "md_d0 array fabricated, prevents mounting md0 partitions" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/615186
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 136252 in mdadm (Ubuntu) "[->UUIDudev] mdadm.conf w/o ARRAY lines but udev/mdadm not assembling arrays. (boot & hotplug fails)" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/136252
<ev> speaking of mexican restaurants, we should get the England cabal together soon
<ev> jhunt: ^
<robbiew> \o/ on util bug...thanks!
<jhunt> I was waiting for a comment along these lines :)
<robbiew> mvo?
 * jhunt reaches for Mole bucket...
<mvo> apt: merges,work on dpointer branch; Archive-crawler: kill overly huge icons when extracting; updated app-install-data and command-not-found-data; rnr-server: push lp:~mvo/rnr-server/utf8-appnames, lp:~mvo/rnr-server/compat-with-older-clients; software-center: add support for showing not-yet-published apps (for QA) via software-center-agent, port mago tests to current mago, push lp:~mvo/mago/packages  , work on debtags based UI, lots of work
<mvo>  on ratings&reviews; Update-manager: work on improved upgrade presentation; merged and uploaded new software-center with ratings&reviews; update-manager: work on EOL handling, misc fixes
<ev> jhunt: would that be the bucket that contains the Mole, or the bucket you use after eating the Mole
<jhunt> what's that saying about renting Mexican food? (it's the same bucket!)
<cjwatson> eww
<ev> hahaha
<mvo> (done I should add)
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> oh..mvo...your bug assignments have dropped to ;)
<robbiew> almost below 100!
<robbiew> :/
<robbiew> I WILL get you there this week ;)
<robbiew> cjwatson?
 * mvo hugs robbiew
<mvo> robbiew: much appreciated! I owe you [ ] tea or [ ] beer
<cjwatson> done: OpenSSH 5.7p1 packaging; fixed nasty console-setup breakage; lots of misc tidy-ups for alpha-2; experimenting with IPv6; starting to get powerpc test system up and running
<cjwatson> todo: plymouth framebuffer-switch handling (carried over again, argh, sorry)
<cjwatson> --
<robbiew> cjwatson: heh..yeah, I noticed a funky looking graphic at bootup now
<robbiew> it's 4 boxes with dots inside each one...a reddish orange color...pretty at least :P
<robbiew> but hey...still booting DAMN fast!!!!!
<robbiew> \o/
<cjwatson> four boxes sounds like a corrupted version of the ubuntu-text splash
<cjwatson> I hate graphics
<ev> cjwatson: getting us ready for the ipv4pocalypse?
 * mvo also got a charles stross book last week that keeps him up at night, funny to see airsnort mentioned in a book
<cjwatson> mostly just trying to get to the point where I know what I'm talking about
<ev> heh
<cjwatson> I can ping6 ipv6.google.com, it must work perfectly now :P
<robbiew> luckily slangasek runs ipv6 in his house...so we know it at least works
<robbiew> lol
<barry> cjwatson: how much of your home network infrastructure did you have to rebuild to do that? ;)
<robbiew> it's not that hard really
<cjwatson> barry: not actually as bad as you might think, though I did have to finally automate DNS zone file generation
<cjwatson> 6to4 is shonky though, can't wait for my ISP to get round to native v6
<robbiew> yeah...I recall setting up a DNS server to handle IPv6...was a PITA
 * robbiew remembers his days of testing AIX with ipv6....the HORROR!!!
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Natty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty
 * cjwatson shudders
<robbiew> Alpha 2 is this Thus...woot
<barry> i'll have to start experimenting too tho my isp does not provide ipv6 yet, i just got converted to docsis3 so it's at least *possible* iiuc
<robbiew> if you have any features or bugs you want mentioned in the release notes...update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/TechnicalOverview
<robbiew> or at least let skaet know
<barry> robbiew: main should be fully installable with python27 now
<mvo> !!!
<slangasek> robbiew: most of the problems aren't with ipv6 working, but with our systems /thinking/ ipv6 should work when it doesn't :)
<robbiew> sweet...lol, at first I misread and thought you wrote "unstable"
<barry> (not just builds, but all depends: python in main should install.  does it work?  well, that's another matter)
<barry> :)
<robbiew> slangasek: heh...details...details
<robbiew> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations-natty-alpha-2.html
<robbiew> so it looks like ev and mvo have some left over workitems
<robbiew> mpt around?
<robbiew> nope
<robbiew> mvo: mpt has a work item that I suspect is doe
<robbiew> done
<mvo> robbiew: I can write the guidelines up today, that will kill two
<robbiew> mvo: for RnR...says something about pixel review from Otto
<robbiew> given we just rolled it out...was that done already?
<mvo> robbiew: thats not done yet, its about the pixel layout in the client
<robbiew> oh
<ev> robbiew: definitely deferred (and doing so now). Waiting on DX for that one.
<mvo> but we can move it for later
<robbiew> thnx
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB/GoodNews?
<ev> ah, I don't have permission to change the milestone of that one
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB/GoodNews?
<robbiew> ev: I'll try
<ev> thanks
<robbiew> I HAVE THE POWERRRR!
<robbiew> ev: done
<robbiew> :P
<robbiew> anything else?
<ev> thanks!
<robbiew> Ratings and Reviews is out in S-C....WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
<robbiew> that's good news ;)
<barry> yay!
<mvo> yeah!
<robbiew> I no longer have to manage Security....jdstrand is in da house!!! WOOOOOT!
<robbiew> :P
<mvo> jamie is managing them team now? nice!
<jdstrand> o/
<mvo> congrats jdstrand
<jdstrand> thanks!
<barry> jdstrand: congrats!
<robbiew> okey dokey....can call this one a wrap!
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:28.
<robbiew> thnx all
<mvo> thanks
<barry> robbiew: cheers
<jdstrand> barry: thanks! :)
<surbhi> thanks
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> highvoltage: ping
<mgariepy> hello
<stgraber> hey mgariepy
<stgraber> mgariepy: is highvoltage around ?
<highvoltage> hi!
<mgariepy> he's coming :)
<mgariepy> :)
<stgraber> good, looks like we've everyone ;)
<highvoltage> I'm having one of those days where people are telling other people to tell me that they're looking for me on jabber, and other people e-mailing me to tell me that they're looking for me on IRC, and people sending me messages on facebook telling me to read my email
<stgraber> ;)
<stgraber> yeah, I've been poking you twice through mgariepy :) Don't worry, next week I'll do it in person :)
<JFo> highvoltage, I hate those days
<highvoltage> stgraber: heh, yes :)
<highvoltage> JFo: It doesn't bother me anymore, people who are too impatient
<highvoltage> oops,
<JFo> :)
<highvoltage> JFo: It doesn't bother me anymore, people who are too impatient (not stgraber just for the record) will just get deprioritized
<stgraber> ;)
<highvoltage> especially people msging me on facebook telling me to read my email, since I only get those notifications by email anyway
<highvoltage> but I digress.
<highvoltage> Edubuntu time!
<JFo> I know exactly what you mean highvoltage
<JFo> :)
<highvoltage> images are currently being built for alpha 2
<highvoltage> hopefully the last spins for alpha 2
<stgraber> We should have 20110202.1 on cdimage in the next 10mins or so
<stgraber> based on my guestimate of the build process (looking at the logs)
<highvoltage> they'll be listed on http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ when ready so if anyone wants to help test this will be a good time to do so
<stgraber> I'll publish them on the tracker as soon as they appear so people will get a mail asking for testing
<highvoltage> great
<stgraber> other than that, apw is working on my nbd issue and didrocks is fixing gnome-session. So we should have working LTSP for the next alpha ;)
<highvoltage> I have the first alpha 2 release anouncement draft done on the website, it's not public there but I'm pasting it in a pastebin so long just for some feedback...
<stgraber> highvoltage: as we link to it from the wiki page, we may want to publish it but not promote to front page, so it's there but you need to know the URL
<highvoltage> formatting, etc is lost and it looks horrible but this is what we more or less have: http://paste.ubuntu.com/561557/
<highvoltage> stgraber: ok
<highvoltage> stgraber: and it won't syndicate via rss either if it's not on the frontpage right?
<stgraber> highvoltage: "shouldn't"
<highvoltage> http://edubuntu.org/2011-02-02/edubuntu-1104-alpha-2-released
<highvoltage> a new librecad package has been uploaded to revu, I gave it a +1 and tumbleweed will review a bit later so if it's good we should have it in the archives after the freeze is over
<stgraber> cool
<highvoltage> I think I mentioned this in the last meeting, but we're replacing qcad with librecad
<stgraber> I have it on my todolist too but I got quite a lot of stuff before that ;)
<highvoltage> yeah I know you're way too busy, don't worry about that
<highvoltage> anything else we need to do for the alpha?
<highvoltage> seems like we just have to test those images (upgrades are already tested), fine-tune the release notes a bit and we should be good to go?
<stgraber> sounds good
<stgraber> apw has a fix for the nbd hang, so that's already fixed :)
<stgraber> still have an issue where I can't disconnect from nbd
<highvoltage> I wish there was a way to make nfs as fast as nbd, if it wasn't for the performance difference we probably would've been better off with nfs.
<highvoltage> I don't think I have anything further, btw :)
<highvoltage> mgariepy had a question about menueditor and patches for the qimo-launcher, but I guess mhall119 could answer then when he's around
 * mhall119 is around
<mhall119> listening to jono's livestream
<mhall119> UDS-P will be back in Orlando
 * mhall119 is happy
<mgariepy> mhall119, will you need help testing that edubuntu-menueditor would work with qimo-launcher ?
<mhall119> mgariepy: all qimo-launcher needs it the ability to point it to a .menu file to edit
<mhall119> if it can do that, then I'm 99% sure it'll work
<mgariepy> we will probably need to patch desktop-profiles for this to work
<stgraber> mhall119: cool, I really like UDS-N, will be great to be back in Orlando !
<mhall119> edubuntu-menueditor uses desktop-profiles?
<mgariepy> mhall119, yes to apply profiles to group
<highvoltage> Orlando sounds cool, just a pity it's in the US :) (at least I figured out the whole US visa thing now)
<mhall119> highvoltage: just pass yourself off as a Canadian and we'll be less afraid of you
<mgariepy> but i don't think it would be a big problem to add support to qimo-launcher into this code if qimo support XDG_DATA_DIRS and XDG_CONFIG_DIRS correctly,
<mhall119> mgariepy: it'll probably need your help with it then
<mhall119> qimo sets those at login, yes
<mgariepy> ok
<mhall119> Xfce honors them, so it should be good
<highvoltage> mhall119: heh :)
<mgariepy> most DE honor them :)
<mhall119> I'm going to build Qimo 3 alpha 2 basesd on the Xubuntu alpha 2 ISO this weekend
<mhall119> so I'll know more then
<highvoltage> we also still don't have much of a plan for artwork. the artwork team has made some suggestions, but to be frank I'm not excited about any of them (not that I'm the target market, even)
<mhall119> Qimo isn't likely to have new artwork this cycle either
<stgraber> Edubuntu DVDs are ready for testing !
<mhall119> \o/
<highvoltage> receiving incremental file list...
<highvoltage> we missed some alpha 2 goals, like getting acire, python-snippets and openteacher in the archives. not a big deal though, there's still time before feature freeze
<highvoltage> "Integrate seeded package list with Software Center for comments and ratings" <- stgraber I think you suggested that, what exactly needs to be done there?
<stgraber> highvoltage: wasn't that for the website ?
<mhall119> I'll submit the qimo 3 packages to revu once I've got them working on my alpha 2
<mhall119> then we can start working on getting something ready for edubuntu/gnome
<stgraber> highvoltage: I think it was the idea of getting our package list on the website and show data from mvo's Review and Ratings thing
<mhall119> stgraber: I've got the package list on the wiki, I can look at pulling ratings and comments into that
<stgraber> mhall119: that could be a good first step
<stgraber> mhall119: the idea for edubuntu.org was to merge the work you did (get description and stuff based on the seeds), use the Software Center's web service to get reviews&ratings and integrate with WebLive
<stgraber> so someone could easily browse the educational software list, check the reviews, ratings, screenshots, ... and try it in WebLive if they want to
<mhall119> stgraber: do you have a link to the software center web service?  I can start looking into it
<stgraber> based on a quick grep, http://reviews.staging.ubuntu.com/reviews/api/1.0
<highvoltage> sorry I was distracted by my boss coming to my desk to speak to me and another IRC and jabber conversation :)
<mhall119> oh django, even better
<highvoltage> stgraber: I'm not familiar with mvo's Review and Ratings thing, is there a wiki page or something for it?
<mhall119> I'll look to see if it's in launchpad
<highvoltage> ah, I see
<stgraber> mhall119: yep, my guess is that it's an xml-rpc service, so as the software list on edubuntu.org will very likely be a drupal module and I already use xml-rpc for WebLive, that'll be simple
<mhall119> cool
<stgraber> basically just need to implement what you did on the wiki (parse the seeds and stuff, grab the package info and put it in the DB) and then grab the rest using xml-rpc (doing some caching so I don't kill the server)
<stgraber> anything else for the meeting ?
<mgariepy> not for me.
<mhall119> nor me
<highvoltage> nor me
<stgraber> ok, well, thanks everyone, happy testing ! :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-03
<Smurphy> Jo. damn - that one's full :)
<ogra> mooo
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<NCommander> who's here?
 * rsalveti waves
 * ogra pretends to
<flag> me too :)
<janimo> hello
<NCommander> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110203
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2011/20110203
 * davidm thinks it's too cold
<NCommander> [topic] Action Items from last meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Items from last meeting
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to talk to the release team on which team to track w.r.t. to bugs (co)
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to talk to the release team on which team to track w.r.t. to bugs (co)
<NCommander> c/o (again)
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-3.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-3.html
<rsalveti> should we list the alpha 2 items?
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/ubuntu-armel-natty-alpha-2.html
<rsalveti> I think the wi are all done, but just to make sure
<rsalveti> NCommander: you need to move your wi to alpha3
<NCommander> rsalveti: indeed, as qt4-x11 still doesn't work on ARM
<ogra> yup
<janimo> NCommander, I have also been debugging the Qt issue. Takes time since qt rebuilds are slow. Not sure what the bug is though :(
<NCommander> anything else on work items?
<NCommander> janimo: thanks, its appericated :-)
<ogra> we should see that we get below 10 items per person on the aÂ§ tracker imho
<ogra> *aÂ§
<ogra> GRR
<ogra> A3
<NCommander> ogra: :-)
<ogra> especially rsalveti and me
<rsalveti> yup
<janimo> is that the cat on yopur keyboard?
<rsalveti> janimo: want to take another bp?
<rsalveti> :-)
<janimo> rsajdok, bp?
<rsalveti> got too many, and still need to debug sgx
<janimo> ah blueprint
<janimo> yes
<ogra> janimo, no, i have no capslock led on the ac100
<rsalveti> janimo: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-arm-n-handle-core-boot-files-update
<janimo> rsalveti, ok feel free to assign it to me
<rsalveti> still didn't start, but should be fine
<ogra> i'll drop the thin clients spec and am happy to give away the BT remote testing for the mediacenter one
<ogra> that gets me on exactly 10 items
<ogra> though the build cluster stuff isnt really tied to the release schedule
<rsalveti> the gles porting one is now kind of blocked
<rsalveti> because of the compiz and nux port by linaro
<rsalveti> so it should be easy to work on
<rsalveti> once it's done
<ogra> can we do anything to speed them up ?
<janimo> ogra, help out with porting I guess
<rsalveti> ogra: nops, need dev work from linaro side
<ogra> k
<NCommander> can we move on?
<ogra> from my POV you can ... anyone else ?
<rsalveti> yup, move
<NCommander> [topic] Unity 2D Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  Unity 2D Status
<NCommander> still broken on ARm due to qt4 being foobared
<ogra> unity-2d MIR was reviewed by mterry
<ogra> had a good amount of licensing issues still
<ogra> these were fixed and included in the latest package
<ogra> so unity-2d itself is fine for main
<ogra> the libs arent yet
<ogra> two of them are still missing symbols files
<ogra> which i plan to have fixed by end of the week
<ogra> MIRs are ok beyond that
<ogra> so after that fix we theoretically are ready for main inclusion
<ogra> i will try to pull it to main but leave it off the images next week
<NCommander> \o
<ogra> and wait for the QT fix
<NCommander> go ogra for handling this :-)
<ogra> (and also hoping that we get a magical fix with 4.7.2)
<NCommander> ++
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, rsalveti)
<ogra> which according to Riddell is due "any minute" (since a week or so) ;)
<ogra> ..
<rsalveti> we're now using kernel 2.6.38 for omap 3
<rsalveti> I fixed one dvi issue we had, patch followed to linux-omap and already integrated at our tree
<ogra> there were some issues about responsibilities wrt security updates for lucid and maverick
<rsalveti> so now we have it working fine for beagle and xM
 * janimo somewhow doubts qt 4.7.2 fixes this
<NCommander> ogra: oops
<rsalveti> for omap 4 no other updates
<ogra> janimo, likely not, but one can hope :)
<ogra> davidm, was the support matrix discussed with kernel/security ?
<ogra> and are they clear which kernels need support and which not ?
<davidm> ogra yes
<ogra> ++
<davidm> I sent rtg a list of what needs support
<ogra> rsalveti, any idea when we get something newer than .35 for omap4 ?
<davidm> He forwarded same to the section of the kernel team that does that work
<ogra> i guess thats something for the call
<rsalveti> ogra: not atm, still waiting more update from the linaro + ti
<rsalveti> probably
<davidm> .38 is looking interesting and will be very late in cycle
<rsalveti> yep :-(
<ogra> sigh
<ogra> again
<davidm> I'm working the issue but it's not pretty
<rsalveti> yeah, we'll see the same thing as maveirck
<rsalveti> late core updates all around
<ogra> that costed us sound support last cycle
<ogra> :(
<rsalveti> yup :-(
<NCommander> can I move on?
<rsalveti> yup, nothing else from my side
<ogra> go
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Release testing went quite smooth.
<GrueMaster> No major issues, only a few minor ones.
<GrueMaster> Last minute uploads almost clobbered the release image though.
<ogra> and no arm realted ones !
<ogra> 'related
<ogra> (apart from the muted XM sound)
<GrueMaster> Audio controls on panda will also need to be fixed with UCM.
<ogra> indeed
<GrueMaster> There is audio, but it is difficult to control.
<ogra> hey, but we made A2
<rsalveti> :D
<ogra> and pretty smooth this time
<GrueMaster> yes we did.
<rsalveti> yup
<GrueMaster> nothing else here.
<ogra> move
<GrueMaster> *yawn*
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra> did you guys start using the new list ?
<janimo> new list?
<NCommander> QT4 debugging continues with another set of build tests
<NCommander> ogra: ne wlist?
<ogra> the one slangasek promotes since the rally
 * NCommander hasn't heard of it
<ogra> please make sure to talk to him
<janimo> as in mailing list, or list of bugs (porting qurue)
<janimo> queue
<ogra> NCommander, it was discussed at the rally as well as in last linaro/arm call
<ogra> porting queue
<janimo> so a set of tags and processes for triaging and fixing armel porting issues
<janimo> in LP
<ogra> the ftbfs website isnt really close wrt timing
<janimo> between linaro and us
<ogra> i.e. we didnt have the empathy blocker for A2 on it
<NCommander> ogra: the ftbfs page is only delaARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra> even 5h after the build had failed
<NCommander> yed sometihng like ~30 minutes-ish
<NCommander> argh
<ogra> NCommander, the ftbfs list only gets generated twoce a day
<ogra> *twice
<NCommander> ogra: that was fixed
<NCommander> with th move to launchpadlib
<ogra> in any case the new porting queue as discussed should be used
<janimo> with packages taking one day to build it is the perfect sampling frequency :)
<ogra> heh
<ogra> yeah
<slangasek> ogra: the new list isn't populated yet, sorry - not much there to use yet
<ogra> if you need more info, slangasek can point you to urls and tags
<slangasek> Coming Soon
<ogra> oh, ok
<ogra> so until then use the ftbfs site :P
 * ogra hides
<janimo> plenty of work on the ftbfs site too (kde!!)
<NCommander> janimo: i recommend ignoring KDE until Qt is fixed
<GrueMaster> Yes, kdelibs needs love.
<ogra> blame NCommander, he said all oreal issues were fixed upstream :P
<ogra> *qreal
<janimo> NCommander, sure
<GrueMaster> Missed release this time around as a result.
<NCommander> GrueMaster: that was intentional due to the qt4-x11 issues
<NCommander> Until Qt is resolved, KDE is not on my TODO list 10:30:39 < janimo> plenty of work on the ftbfs site too (kde!!)
<janimo> I guess upstream introduces new qreal issues when doing a new minor release
<ogra> it is release noted
<NCommander> (ok
<ogra> no worries
<NCommander> this is getting annoying
 * NCommander has to fix his kb
<ogra> get a new one ;)
<ogra> they dont cost the world
<NCommander> [topic] 10:31:48 < NCommander> this is getting annoying
<NCommander> 10:31:53  * NCommander has to fix his kb
<MootBot> New Topic:  10:31:48 < NCommander> this is getting annoying
<NCommander> ....
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra> awesome !
<ogra> they rock !!!
<rsalveti> \o/
<ogra> siny and sexy
<ogra> *shiny indeed
<ogra> nothing else to report atm
<NCommander> I do
<janimo> headless creation postponed after A2
<ogra> so we'll have them tomorrow ?
<ogra> ;P
<NCommander> nm on my news
<NCommander> :-)
<janimo> after, not shortly after :P
<ogra> :)
<janimo> NCommander, yes? what's the news? :)
<NCommander> janimo: we'll beat the headless work into the ground ASAP, its at least fairly straightforward
<NCommander> janimo: you beaAny Other Business
<NCommander> oh give me a break
<janimo> :)
 * NCommander goes to find  mallet
<GrueMaster> ogra: Pool is frozen.  Have to wait until Monday first thing.
<NCommander> (anything else?)
<janimo> GrueMaster, pool?
<janimo> debian arch or swimming?
<GrueMaster> yes
<GrueMaster> :P
<ogra> GrueMaster, pull out your swim suit
<ogra> will thaw today
 * NCommander hopes its the former as the idea of GrueMaster in a swimsuit scares and confuses me
<janimo> so NCommander did you find the mallet?
<GrueMaster> Oh, you don't want that.
<NCommander> anyway, can I move?
<GrueMaster> can you type?
<NCommander> possibly
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
 * NCommander has nothing
<ogra> other meeting times so we can have persia back ?
<ogra> (not serious here, but it seems to be awkward for him to attend atm)
<ogra> and i must say i miss him
<ogra> meeting wise
 * NCommander thinks it might be easier to move Japan ...
<ogra> go ahead
<NCommander> then to get us all in times that aren't bad
<ogra> :)
<ogra> though i prefer to have more than 20sqm to live in
<NCommander> ok
<NCommander> anything else?
<NCommander> going once
<NCommander> twice
<NCommander> three times
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:40.
 * charlie-tca is ready
<charlie-tca> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:01. The chair is charlie-tca.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<charlie-tca> this is the regularly scheduled Xubuntu Community Meeting.
<charlie-tca> the full agenda is available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Meetings
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Old business
<MootBot> New Topic:  Old business
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC]     * Xubuntu marketing plans
<MootBot> New Topic:      * Xubuntu marketing plans
<highvoltage> hey charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> I have not had any time to pursue this further yet, myself. However, if there are any ideas or someone can take an action to put this together on the wiki, please let us knwo.
<highvoltage> not sure if this is old news already but congrats on being official xubuntu lead :)
<charlie-tca> Thanks, highvoltage
<charlie-tca> If there is no one to take the marketing plans up yet, I will carry it forward, so we don't lose the basics
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Team updates
<MootBot> New Topic:  Team updates
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Packaging & Development
<MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging & Development
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: any updates today?
<charlie-tca> okay, I can try. Xfce4.8.1 has a few package updates. all the 4.8.1 packages are mainly bug fixes.
<charlie-tca> We do not have an official PPA for Xfce4.8 to add it to Xubuntu 10.10 or 10.04. The individual ppa's available are unofficial by people not associated with Xubuntu or Xfce
<charlie-tca> any questions?
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Bug Triage & Testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Bug Triage & Testing
<charlie-tca> Testing of the Natty Alpha2 images went great! thanks to knome and j1mc for helping with it
<charlie-tca> Any questions for bugs and testing?
<micahg> o/
<charlie-tca> Go ahead, micahg
<micahg> comments more that questions
<micahg> thunderbird-locales in lucid-proposed passed verification, maverick-proposed still needs testing
<charlie-tca> I forgot, I am sorry to say
<micahg> also, Firefox 3.6.14 (Hardy-Maverick) and Thunderbird 3.1.8 (Lucid and Maverick) are available here for testing: https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mozilla-security/+archive/ppa, they'll be released next week when Mozilla releases if there are no issues
 * micahg is done :)
<charlie-tca> Any help with testing is greatly appreciated. these packages in -proposed are pretty important to get done.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Website & Marketing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Website & Marketing
<charlie-tca> Any one have an update? pleia2 is not able to make the meeting today.
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Artwork
<MootBot> New Topic:  Artwork
<charlie-tca> ochosi brought up the question of possible generic icons for default applications.
<beardygnome> hi all, sorry i'm late - got stuck at work
<charlie-tca> The proposed generic icons for default apps in xubuntu, here is a list, but it's not that *all* of the suggestions have to be accepted or denied, we can also select one or more we like
<charlie-tca> welcome, beardygnome
<charlie-tca> The icon list is http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:generic_app_icons , inputs are welcome.
<charlie-tca> I would propose that we take this to the ML, if there are no objections to doing it that way.
<charlie-tca> One icon in particular we need to do something with is Application Finder and Catfish. they use the same icon now
<micahg> is there a reason we're replacing icons for apps that should have their own icons?
<charlie-tca> to the point of two the same, sure, it gets confusing. Also, ristretto's icon seems a bit ambiguous. We were thinking we might want one that is more "what is that" oriented.
<charlie-tca> We are not proposing changing every icon, but there are a few we are looking at.
<charlie-tca> When I look at icons like Abiword in Lucid vs natty, the notebook and pen icon in Natty actually made sense to me
<charlie-tca> comments and questions?
<beardygnome> i think it might be better keeping the original icons
<beardygnome> that way if people are coming from other distros or os's they will feel more at home
<micahg> +1
<charlie-tca> the only issue I have with that is when the user adds both catfish and app finder in launchers, how do they know which is which?
<charlie-tca> they match now
<knome> i disagree. accessibility is also keeping the system easy to use for people who never even saw a computer. "photo" tells you that the application is used for browsing photos, "coffee cup" doesn't
<beardygnome> imo that's one of the biggest problems with open source software
<micahg> well, launcher vs app icon I think are 2 different things
<charlie-tca> micahg: why? they both use the same icon
<micahg> however, it would be cool WRT Firefox/TB to use their icons if they're selected and the generics if not
<beardygnome> developers give apps "cool" names and icons which don't make sense
<micahg> charlie-tca: I was saying that changing the launcher icon to generic makes sense
<charlie-tca> The other question in my own mind is, if we change the icon on the launcher, will it not have to be changed in the menu, also?
<charlie-tca> knome has a great point on the coffee cup. I would not ever guess that means a photo or image viewer
<beardygnome> i would say that for well known apps, such as FF and TB we definitely should *not*/ chnage the
<beardygnome> *them
<beardygnome> and GIMP
<charlie-tca> As proposed, there are only a few apps in the list right now. It can be expanded as needed, but it doesn't include anything well known
<charlie-tca> I think we have to look at the link
<beardygnome> FF, GIMP and TB are all on the current list
<charlie-tca> [LINK] http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:generic_app_icons
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:generic_app_icons
 * charlie-tca slaps head
<charlie-tca> You're right! I missed that.
<charlie-tca> knome: any comment on those specifically?
<knome> the list is only a draft and a proposal. it's done to gather comments and thoughts. i personally do not have a strong opinion in keeping or losing the branding, but the idea of changing the icons for launchers in panel/menu only sounds good.
<charlie-tca> Do you want the comments sent to the ml to keep track?
<beardygnome> what icons do we change atm?
<charlie-tca> We use what comes in the icon set in use
<knome> mailing list is okay.
<charlie-tca> I can tell you, if you loaded Faenza icons, everything changes, regardless of branding
<vish> o/ (one doubt..)
<charlie-tca> yes
<vish> charlie-tca, knome : what icon theme are these icons from? http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:generic_app_icons ?
<knome> vish, i'd suppose elementary, but i didn't work on those icons, so i'm not 100% sure.
<knome> vish, they might also be custom made.
<knome> you'd have to ask ochosi about that
<vish> yea.. since they have been taken from Humanity, mostly copied over.. and if just copied over, they should be attributed ;)
<charlie-tca> the the best of my knowledge, knome is right, it is elementary
<charlie-tca> vish: that should be taken up with the elementary icon set artist, shouldn't it?
<knome> we'll make sure the licenses and attribution is correct once there is a decision
<vish> elementary and Humanity have some same icons.. and i did some of those icons on that page :)
<vish> charlie-tca: i'm part of the elementary team and am the maintainer of Humanity
<vish> knome: thanks.. :)
<knome> afaik, ochosi is in contact with danrabbit
<charlie-tca> Okay, do we need an action for that or will you ask ochosi?
<knome> well, we'll just make sure the attribution is correct if we decide something
<charlie-tca> Great. Thank you for doing that
<charlie-tca> [ACTION] discussion about generic icons to replace existing brand icons needs to be on ML
<MootBot> ACTION received:  discussion about generic icons to replace existing brand icons needs to be on ML
<knome> added a note of that in the wikipage as well as told ochosi
<charlie-tca> Thanks again. You know more of what that is about than I do
<mr_pouit> these icons are in elementary-icon-theme I guess, so nothing to worry about attributionâ¦
<charlie-tca> And along with the icons discussion, we now a a list of what is happening with gmusicbrowser at http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:natty_gmb
<charlie-tca> [LINK] http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:natty_gmb
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.knome.fi/xubuntu:natty_gmb
<beardygnome> is gmb going to be the new default music player?
<charlie-tca> that's what I was wondering too
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit: Have we made any decision yet?
<beardygnome> what's wrong with exaile?
<mr_pouit> mmh, I think we agreed a few days ago to use it
<mr_pouit> I was just waiting for the alpha 2 to be released to include it
<charlie-tca> beardygnome: we have a comparison sheet at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Natty/DefraultMediaPlayer
<charlie-tca> thank you, mr_pouit.
<charlie-tca> Yes, gmb will replace exaile in Natty
<micahg> working link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Specifications/Natty/DefaultMediaPlayer
<charlie-tca> We have developers willing to work closely with us to get bugs worked, and specs improved in gmb
<micahg> exaile development also seems dead
<charlie-tca> thanks, micahg
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Updates for Xubuntu 10.04.2
<MootBot> New Topic:  Updates for Xubuntu 10.04.2
<charlie-tca> We will have a new image for this release. Testing starts the 15th for it
<charlie-tca> We also have documentation that is actually for 10.04 in it!
<charlie-tca> Anything else on 10.04.2?
<charlie-tca> Trying to move along then, running out of time...
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Discuss default applications to be used in Natty
<MootBot> New Topic:  Discuss default applications to be used in Natty
<charlie-tca> Want to tackle this ?
<charlie-tca> I believe firefox vs chrome is still there, and lightdm vs gdm
 * micahg thought FF vs chrome was settled :-/
<charlie-tca> am I behind again?
<beardygnome> micahg: which way?
<Sysi> FF4 fixes the slowness issue in firefox
<micahg> FF :)
<Sysi> not any fantasies
<charlie-tca> comments/
<charlie-tca> ?
<beardygnome> i have installed the dev preview of FF$ in maverick and i think it's a big improvement
<beardygnome> on FF3
<beardygnome> but personally i'm happier with chromium
<micahg> beardygnome: I have a testing PPA for the beta releases, ppa:mozillateam/firefox-next
<Sysi> idk about RAM-usage but i wouldn't make users to switch from familiar and working program to google-slaved app
<beardygnome> micahg: that's where i got it from :-)
<mr_pouit> Sysi: eh, nice troll ;]
<Sysi> chromium is pretty nice and fast i admit, but it's memory hog at least with multiple tabs
<charlie-tca> firefox stays then, mr_pouit ?
<Sysi> (and i don't like it's adblock and noscript addons)
<beardygnome> Sysi: i will admit it's less stable than FF, but i can live with that for the moment.
<beardygnome> i think FF is the better choice for default atm.
<Sysi> mr_pouit: i put it in offensive way, but it's still think we should take into count
<charlie-tca> [AGREED] keep firefox as the default browser
<MootBot> AGREED received:  keep firefox as the default browser
<Sysi> (-is)
<charlie-tca> um, do we have any other apps in discussion besides the login manager then?
 * beardygnome is installing gmb to give it a test drive
<charlie-tca> it is nice, from the shimmer website
<Sysi> i think email-client was decided in the mailing list
<beardygnome> TB?
<Sysi> iirc
<Sysi> does shimmer gmb theme work on small screens now?
<Sysi> i know many people use xubuntu on netbook
<charlie-tca> Grab the gmusicbrowser from the ppa for testing. It is greatly improved over the repositories
<charlie-tca> https://launchpad.net/~shimmerproject/+archive/ppa
<beardygnome> where's the menu in gmb?
<Sysi> i did try it but it was long time ago, i'll see
<micahg> which PPA is this?
<charlie-tca> knome: do you know if it works for small screens
<beardygnome> i have to say on first viewing it doesn't seem very intuative
<charlie-tca> that is the gmb ppa
<charlie-tca> I am running it in natty.
<beardygnome> found it
<charlie-tca> that's the repository version, right, beardygnome ?
<beardygnome> yes
<beardygnome> you have to go to the settings menu
<charlie-tca> That has been changed a lot alreadyu
<charlie-tca> Even I could play music in the latest version
<beardygnome> but that's not called settings, it's just an icon of a wrench
<micahg> do you need someone to update natty to 1.1.6
<charlie-tca> okay, enough on that. Send comments to either -devel mailing list, #shimmer or #xubuntu-devel
<charlie-tca> mr_pouit, knome : you have an answer for micahg ?
<charlie-tca> We are running a bit late again.
<charlie-tca> let's ask in -devel, micahg
<mr_pouit> micahg: yeah, either you or me ;-)
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Announcements
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announcements
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu Natty Narwhal Alpha2 should be out very soon now
<Sysi> (sorry for being late, i think that huge disk cover image won't fit to small screens)
<charlie-tca> major bug: can not install amd64 desktop version without the workaround noted in the release notes
<charlie-tca> knome: gmb issue?
<Sysi> last time i heard about it, theme was made big
<charlie-tca> Sysi: that is gmb, right?
<Sysi> yup
<Sysi> i think nice and pretty easy, but not gonna work on smaller screen
<charlie-tca> It's in natty now, can you file a bug for that?
<charlie-tca> I am skipping the launcher discussion, carried forward to next week
<charlie-tca> [TOPIC] Any Other Busines
<MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Busines
<charlie-tca> s
<Sysi> they then planned doing different small version, i could well report to them
<charlie-tca> That will work good. They appreciate whatever reports we can give them
<charlie-tca> any further discussions/comments/questions/ or other?
<charlie-tca> We willl have a meeting next week, 2011-02-10, 19:00 UTC, here
<charlie-tca> Let's go ahead and close this.
<charlie-tca> I want to thank every one for attending and discussing today! You participation is really appreciated!
<charlie-tca> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 14:12.
<beardygnome> there's a vote to be had next week right?
<charlie-tca> what voteZ?
<charlie-tca> remind me?
<beardygnome> or is next week the deadline for the artwork?
<beardygnome> i forget
<charlie-tca> ouch,
<charlie-tca> I have to look
<charlie-tca> beardygnome: 10 march
<beardygnome> i knew it was thurs 10th of something :-)
<charlie-tca> Okay, after my heart starts again, I can do the notes for this and qa meeting I chaired
<charlie-tca> I am learning. The more things I telll that 'bot to record, the easier to do the minutes
<beardygnome> charlie-tca: i think you're doing a great job
<charlie-tca> Thank you. I can only keep trying to get it right
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-04
<knome>  /wc
<knome> err
 * ara waves
 * skaet waves back at ara
<marjo> hi ara!
<marjo> hi skaet; welcome back
<skaet> hi marjo.  thank you.
 * pgraner o/
 * joshuahoover waves
<ogra> mooo
 * joshuahoover is a bit distracted between meetings today, but will do his best to report (if not pay complete attention prior...sorry!) :)
<pitti> o/
<skaet> joshuahoover, no worries,  understand.  :)
 * skaet waves at pgraner, ogra, pitti.   happy to see quorum gathering...
<skaet> thinking this may start nicely on time today...
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<skaet> [Topic] Natty overview - skaet
<MootBot> New Topic:  Natty overview - skaet
<skaet> A big THANK YOU to everyone for getting Alpha 2 out the door this week!!   Lots of bugs were found and closed!
<skaet> Also,  lots of lovely new bugs were identified nice and early in our overall release cycle, so we can work on them over next couple of months.  :)
<skaet> I haven't incorporated the new one into the agenda, yet, but will finish the editing up later today, and put status out with the minutes.   Agenda/minutes will be in usual place
<skaet> This week, would appreciate any status updates on the ones still open from last week (and closed), and the ones added in the alpha 2 release notes (esp. some of the critical ones)
<skaet> Reminder:   please use ".." on separate line when you've finished typing.    If someone wants to comment on the last point, please "o/", so we know to wait.
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> ..
<skaet> [Topic] Update on action items?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Update on action items?
<skaet> I've not made much progress on mine this week,  anyone else have updates?
<skaet> ..
<zul> hi
<skaet> hi zul,  any updates?  or just letting us know you're around?
<zul> nope no updates sorry
<skaet> no worries.
<skaet> ok, on to the round table then....
<skaet> [Topic] QA team update - marjo
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update - marjo
<marjo> hi folks
<marjo> lots to report today
<marjo>  * Natty Alpha 2 Work Items
<marjo>  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-platform-qa-natty-alpha-2.html
<marjo>  All work items completed, except for:
<marjo>  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/cloud-server-n-uec-qa
<marjo>  [hggdh2] Consolidate UEC test results in email(?) for QA dashboard: POSTPONED
<marjo> [hggdh2] Automate user creation on the UEC tests (depends on euca-add-user/other): POSTPONED
<marjo>  Postponement due to a non-functional euca stack. Therefore, unable to run tests.
<marjo> hggdh2 aka hggdh
<marjo> * Natty Alpha 2 ISO Testing Results
<marjo>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ReleaseReports/NattyAlpha2TestReport
<marjo> == Summary ==
<marjo> === Test Coverage ===
<marjo>  * From Feb. 2nd at 20:34UTC to Feb. 4th at 01:12UTC, 42 contributors have executed a total of 312 test cases.
<marjo>  * Image Coverage: 100% (52/52)
<marjo>  * Mandatory Testcase Coverage: 94.92% (168/177)
<marjo>  * Optional Testcase Coverage: 55.00% (22/40)
<marjo> === Test Failure Analysis ===
<marjo>  * 38 Test Failures
<marjo>  * Failure Rate: 20.00% (38/190)
<marjo> == Bugs summary ==
<marjo> === Summary of Unfixed Issues ===
<marjo> 80 bugs unfixed
<marjo>  *  2 Critical
<marjo>  * 28 High
<marjo>  *  7 Medium
<marjo>  *  6 Low
<marjo>  * 37 Undecided
<marjo> === Summary of Fixed Issues ===
<marjo> 8 bugs fixed
<marjo>  * 4 High
<marjo>  * 1 Medium
<marjo>  * 3 Undecided
<marjo> any questions on alpha2 before i move on?
 * skaet looking
<marjo>  * weekly testing status:
<marjo>  QA Dashboard
<marjo>  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qadashboard/qadashboard.html
<marjo> Note linux and ubiquity in both the "Last Day" and "Last 7 Days" metrics.
<skaet> heh,  indeed.
<marjo> skaet: i was surprised to see unity did NOT show up, so may have to adjust timing, let's see
 * skaet agrees
<marjo>  Desktop Automated Testing results
<marjo> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/
<marjo> Note: 302 test cases in 2D mode and 244 in Unity mode
<marjo> List of bugs found is at the bottom of page.
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/desktop-testing/natty/
<marjo>  Server Automated Testing results
<marjo>  http://204.236.234.12/view/ISO-server-Natty/?
<marjo>  3 failures under investigation by hggdh.
<marjo> ..
<marjo> thanks to all the testers for Alpha2 ISO testing; great job on being very responsive!
<skaet> Thanks marjo,   and a big thank you to the team and the folks in the wider community for pulling off all that test coverage for alpha 2!
<marjo> that's it from me, skaet; thx
<ara> yes, it is an awesome coverage for an Alpha!
<skaet> any questions?
<marjo> ara: thx for the kind words!
<skaet> [Topic] Hardware Certification team update - ara
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware Certification team update - ara
<ara> o/
<ara> Hello! :)
<ara> We are so happy with these week's weekly testing, as we managed to test many more systems than on previous weeks and our processes are getting better.
<ara> The report can be found in the usual place:
<ara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/current
<ara> Some issues to point out:
<ara> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/705078
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/705078
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 705078 in xf86-video-intel "Xorg crashed with SIGSEGV in pixman_image_set_has_client_clip()" [High,Confirmed]
<ara> We found a similar bug a couple of weeks ago and escalated the bug to Bryce. He has managed to reproduce the one I linked and he fixed it yesterday.
<ara> He believes the one we found is the same issue, so we will be retesting one of the affected systems to verify that the fix is valid.
<ara> We will follow up the bug with our verification testing
<ara> skaet, that's the one I told you to include in the release notes
<ara> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub-installer/+bug/711830
<ara> We got an error while installing grub in one of the systems and cjwatson believes it is triggered because of the way we setup or testing. So, cjwatson, let us know if you need any other information on this one.
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub-installer/+bug/711830
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 711830 in grub-installer (Ubuntu) "Error installing grub2 installing natty server" [High,Triaged]
<ara> I would like also to thank mlegris for your great work on the weekly testing this week.
<ara> ..
<skaet> Thanks for the update on that bug, its in the release notes.    Be good if its fixed.   Also, nice to see more systems coming online into the testing.
<skaet> thanks ara, mlegris!
<mlegris> :)
<skaet> any questions for ara?
<cjwatson> ara: I don't think it's your *fault*, I was just explaining that I thought it was likely mostly confined to cert-type setups
<cjwatson> but it shouldn't be too hard to work around
<ara> cjwatson, yes, I understood what you meant :)
<ara> cjwatson, thanks
 * skaet looks around... anyone else?
<skaet> [Topic] Security team update - jdstrand
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi!
<skaet> :)
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> Not a lot to report. This last week we have been very busy focusing on stable release updates and have also been fixing security issues in natty. We have no milestoned features or bugs for alpha-3.
<jdstrand> ..
<jdstrand> notice a pattern here?
<jdstrand> :)
<skaet> thanks jdstrand.  yup, have noticed the pattern.  :)
<skaet> and congratulations on your new role.  :)
<jdstrand> we get to devel work as we can...
<cjwatson> is it worth making jdstrand show up to say the same thing every week? ;-)
<jdstrand> thanks! :)
<jdstrand> I occasionally have something different to say
<skaet> lol
<jdstrand> notice this week I said 'alpha-3' ;)
<skaet> any other questions?
 * skaet makes note to go look at the overall features, and see what will hit at the end.  ;)
<skaet> [Topic] Kernel team update - pgraner
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update - pgraner
<pgraner> Hi everybody, I'm sitting in for apw today while he is on holiday... so here it goes:
<pgraner> == 2011-02-04 (release) ==
<pgraner> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for the release milestone is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<pgraner> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<pgraner> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team-natty-alpha-2.html
<pgraner> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<pgraner> We have hit the end of natty-alpha-2.  Three items were pushed out all of which are detailed on the main status page (first link above); the first a longer term upstream development task for ecryptfs, the second involves converting casper to use zdram, the last a minor documentation only task.  None are release critical.  Overall burndown we are still below the line, so we are looking good overall.
<pgraner> Of the bugs called out on the agenda against the kernel, status is as below:
<pgraner> #344878 ecryptfs long filename are not likely to make natty-alpha-2 and moves out, we will need to make a decision on disabling this shortly;
<pgraner> #539467 SATA alpm is now disabled in userspace, upstream discussions are ongoing;
<pgraner> #542660, #600453, and #681877 (all black screen issues) are in various stages of testing, results are a mixed bag;
<pgraner> #630748 remains waiting on Intel for updated wireless firmware;
<pgraner> #636091 still waits testing by the reporter; and
<pgraner> #702090 looks to be an interaction with vesafb and is with upstream.
<pgraner> The other bugs seem to be non-kernel packages, status is recorded on our status page where available (first link above).
<pgraner> natty-alpha-2 shipped with the a v2.6.32-rc2 based distro kernel; v2.6.38-rc3 did not release in time.  Reports so far are encouraging.  v2.6.38-rc3 has now released and we are uploading a kernel based on it today.
<pgraner> ..
<cjwatson> zdram> is that the latest in the compcache, ramzswap, etc. series?
<ogra> v2.6.32-rc2 ?
<ogra> geez
<ogra> we went back in time !
<ogra> :)
<pgraner> ogra, sorry type
<pgraner> typo should read 3.6.38.rc2
<cjwatson> ecryptfs> disabling which bit exactly?
<ogra> lol
<apw_> cjwatson: yes compcache rrplacement
<apw_> cjwatson: filename encryption
<jdstrand> apw_: disabled via pam?
<cjwatson> will that affect upgrades?
<jdstrand> aiui, there isn't a good way to disable it
<jdstrand> err
<jdstrand> s/good/easy/
<jdstrand> upgrades are *rough* unless you just keep it on for upgrders
<apw_> it would be for new installs only i understand
<cjwatson> because if there are existing systems with filename encryption, we need to support them being upgraded
<cjwatson> right
<jdstrand> with new users not getting it
<apw_> right
<jdstrand> cool
<jdstrand> it would be really nice if that was more toggleable
<pitti> OOI, why are encrypted file names being deprecated?
<jdstrand> (see, I said something different! :P)
<pitti> (if we still need to support them anyway?)
<apw_> not deprecated,justnot working well with lony names
<apw_> which affects some common apps
<pitti> ok, so it's this bug mainly, not other reasons
<pitti> thanks
<apw_> bri
<apw_> pitti: ack
<skaet> pgraner, apw_,  thanks for the update on features,  any concerns about the tasks scheduled for A3, given the current bug load?
<apw_> not currently
<pgraner> skaet, nope looking good
<pgraner> ..
<jdstrand> apw_: so, are you saying that the work to fix it will stop, or we will need to disable since it isn't working for the foreseeable future?
<jdstrand> (ie in the short term)
<apw_> no just  saying will need to decide before a3
 * jdstrand nods
<jdstrand> that is a pretty hard bug aiui
 * jdstrand is done commenting
<skaet> thanks pgraner,  apw_
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Foundations team update - cjwatson
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-foundations.html
<cjwatson> Staying far enough below the trend line that I'm happy for now.
<cjwatson> Interesting progress this week:
<cjwatson>  - Python 2.7 archive analysis and fixes; main should be fully installable with Python 2.7 now.
<cjwatson>  - Working on an alternative approach (somewhat isohybrid-style) to address bug 645818 and friends.  If that fails we have an ugly fallback approach of embedding an old copy of syslinux in usb-creator ...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 645818 in usb-creator (Ubuntu Natty) "10.04.1 image created in Maverick does not boot in my Dell Mini9" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/645818
<cjwatson>  - Voyage of discovery on the notorious "orphaned inodes on shutdown" bug 672177.
<cjwatson>  - btrfs installations now automatically create subvolumes so that we can do neat tricks like rolling back upgrades in future; unfortunately this ran into some GRUB bugs in Alpha 2 (bug 712029) but should be fi
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 672177 in upstart (Ubuntu Natty) "libc6 upgrade causes umount to fail on shutdown because init cannot be restarted" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/672177
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 712029 in grub2 (Ubuntu Natty) "ubiquity btrfs install fails to boot (grub rescue> prompt)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/712029
<cjwatson> xed soon.
<cjwatson> Other than that not a lot to say.  Alpha 2 certainly threw up some interesting bugs, though the volume doesn't seem out of control.
<cjwatson> Bug updates: I haven't had a lot of time to go through the Alpha 2 release notes and try to pick things apart by team.
<cjwatson> As mentioned above, bug 712029 is in progress.  Our worst bug was definitely bug 710582, which seems to be a webkit problem that's been forwarded upstream; if all else fails we *could* apply the workaround from comment 14 in ubiquity, though would prefer not.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 710582 in webkit (Ubuntu Natty) "webkit crashes on amd64 architecture with SIGSEGV in WTF::OSAllocator::reserveAndCommit() was: webkit does not implement "assert" sanely" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/710582
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet> thanks cjwatson,  you covered the ones I was curious about.
<skaet> 710582 sucks.
<skaet> any questions?
<cjwatson> the overcommit_memory workaround is at least not horribly intrusive
<cjwatson> though I'm not quite sure what effect that would have on the stability of the live CD, which is why I'm a bit reluctant
<skaet> true.
<cjwatson> oh, we need to spend some quality time with Wubi.  Again.  Argh.
<skaet> different flavors had different workarounds....
 * skaet forgot to bring up Wubi, but is glad its on cjwatson's radar.  ;)
<skaet> ok moving on then...
<skaet> [Topic] Server team update - zul
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team update - zul
<zul> hi
<zul> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<zul> Alpha 2 was released yesterday, the ISO testing looked pretty good but there was some problems with Eucalyptus when testing it that prevented instances being run. This is due to a newer powernap and problems with DHCPD. New items in the last week include the new openstack release. The burn down chart looks pretty good (96% complete), work items that are not complete have been deffered to Alpha 3. New natty release
<zul>  bugs opened this week are the following:
<zul>  * Bug:711587 - powernap and Eucalyptus seem unable to reach an understanding
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<zul>  * Bug:711590 - Eucalyptus depends on /usr/sbin/dhcpd3, not installed
<zul>  * Bug:711730 - package mysql-client-5.1 5.1.49-1ubuntu9 failed to install/upgrade:
<zul>                 trying to overwrite '/usr/bin/perror', which is also in package mysql-server-5.1 			5.1.49-1ubuntu9
<zul>  * Bug:517300 -	[armel] likewise-open needs porting to ARM
<zul>  * Bug:580319 -	dhcp3-server launches before upstart brings all interface, thus failing to start
<zul>  * Bug:712145 	ubuntu-server JEOS ISO install uses 519M of storage
<zul> Work will be divied up today.
<zul> ...
<zul> 712145 is a bit curious for me though
<cjwatson> oh?
<zul> and 517300 we are probably going to get the ubuntu arm team to help with
<ogra> i thought that was only waiting for upstream acceptance
<zul> cjwatson: im not sure if that is really a bug or not its more of a question
<ogra> (and i was told -desktop is responsible for likewise now)
<skaet> re: 712145 - because it says 500M and it exceeds?
<cjwatson> zul: seems worth investigating at least
<ogra> did that change back ?
<cjwatson> it may point to a real bug
<zul> ogra: yeah it kind of got thrown back at us
<ogra> evil
<ogra> poor man
<cjwatson> e.g. if tasksel/skip-tasks had stopped working or something
<zul> cjwatson: agreed
<zul> ogra: yeah fun
<skaet> thanks zul.
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop team update - pitti
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team update - pitti
<pitti> Blueprint implementation:
<pitti> - On track for entire cycle
<pitti> - Had three remaining WIs for alpha-2, moved to alpha-3
<pitti> - We have a lot of a3 tasks, with the possibility to cut a few "nice to have" ones; but a lot of them are must-have unity integration
<pitti> General status:
<pitti> - Landed first version of new Unity places and apps; horribly unstable right now, though
<pitti> - Current compiz has a lot of problems with invisible windows and sometimes painting menus underneath windows; major bugs have been identified and release-noted for Alpha-2.
<pitti> RC bug status:
<pitti> - alpha-2 testing brought up quite a lot of new ones; most desktop-ish ones were in compiz/unity and are handled by DX; the UbuntuOne crash (bug 708018) is already fixed upstream
<pitti> - the ones which are handled by our team are tracked on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus (easier to read than doing huge paste here)
<pitti> and, just incoming right now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 708018 in ubuntu-sso-client (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-sso-login crashed with IndexError in prompt_handle(): list index out of range" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/708018
<pitti> the new pygobject snapshot causes a lot of pygtk apps to crash now
<pitti> it's because pygobject fixes a long-standing memory leak fix which now uncovers a lot of bugs in pygtk/gtk
<seb128> the ubuntuone issue has been released in natty today
<seb128> the fix for it rather
<pitti> so before applying the workaround (i. e. roll back the memleak fix), I'd rather spend some more time debugging the real bug
 * skaet nods
<pitti> I use bug 713115 as a reference for now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 713115 in pygobject (Ubuntu Natty) "[natty] virt-manager no longer starts with recent updates" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/713115
<pitti> ..
<skaet> thanks pitti
<skaet> are there going to be any dependencies between dx and you that might impact some of the A3 work items?
<pitti> this is mainly an upstream->downstream flow now
<pitti> I'm not aware of anythign that the DX team needs us to do to unblock them, but didrocks or kenvandine might know better
<skaet> ok,  thanks!
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One Team - joshuahoover
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/NattyReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> details on where we're at with blueprints and releases are in the link above
<joshuahoover> 3 items at risk that may need feature freezes:
<joshuahoover> 1) shotwell integration has started but we don't have a lot of experience with vala and we lost at least a week of dev time due to mandel's broken arm...i'll see where we're at mid next week and then may need to file a feature freeze exception
<joshuahoover> 2) syncdaemon resumable uploads was blocked last week and this week we were working on getting past the problem of resuming compression...we still don't have that landed so unless we get that in early next week, i'm likely going to have to file a freeze exception for resumable uploads and/or the "magic uploads" feature that is held up by resumable uploads
<joshuahoover> 3) unity integration continues...we're using the APIs for the launcher item to show sync progress and indicate issues...these APIs aren't completely implemented so we can't fully test (yet)
<joshuahoover> we still have time, but giving a "heads up" based on where we're at today
<joshuahoover> today we're landing a branch to finish up the work on the control panel that allows users to select if they want to sync a share on their computer...this will complete the features for the control panel
<joshuahoover> the rest of our work for this cycle consists of bug fixes that shouldn't impact feature freeze, but i need to make sure there aren't any ui related bugs there that would impact the ui/doc/translation freeze
<joshuahoover> and that's about it
<joshuahoover> ..
<skaet> thank you  for the head's up on the problem areas.
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> thanks joshuahoover
<skaet> [Topic] Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu Team update - Riddell
 * skaet looks and sees Riddell is marked away,  is ScottK around?
<skaet> ok, moving on then...
<skaet> [Topic] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<dbarth_> hiya
<dbarth_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/NattyReleaseStatus
<dbarth_> not much to say for this week, as it was not a release week for us
<dbarth_> everything had landed on the a2 freeze last thursday
<dbarth_> still
<dbarth_> Development continued at a quick on the places
<dbarth_> The launcher gained support for progress indicators and msg count
<dbarth_> More compiz bugs fixes
<dbarth_> A lot of issues triggered by the latest X upload
<dbarth_> at the foundations level: API docs and appmenu work are the highlights
<dbarth_> and at the QA level, we're on the second week of the bug pilot program, and still on a slow start there; measures have been taken...
<dbarth_> and we do have a new GL-capable machine online to run the whole of our test suites now
<dbarth_> on the bug front, no real fix-released ones
<marjo> dbarth: nice!
<dbarth_> but desrt has fixed the dconf crasher in compiz
<dbarth_> and we're getting a superb FF extension for appmenu from chrisccoulson in his ppa
<dbarth_> ...
<skaet> thanks dbarth_! any concerns about the A3 tasks, given the current bug load?
<chrisccoulson> dbarth_, and for tbird later ;)
<dbarth_> skaet: i've worked on planning the remaining tasks with njpatel and rick
<marjo> dbarth: will you be publishing the test results from your GL-capable machine?
<dbarth_> we're still confident we can deliver the rest of a11y, the places and all of appmenus fixes required
<skaet> dbarth_, good to hear :)
<dbarth_> marjo: that's the plan
<marjo> dbarth: thx! looking forward to it
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [Topic] ARM team update - ogra
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update - ogra
<ogra> yay, thats me !!!
<skaet> :)
<ogra> Status is at:
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Natty
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Summary:
<ogra>  * 705689 is still blocking unity-2d inclusion on ARM, janimo and NCommander are working on it,
<ogra>    we are waiting for a full QT build of NCommander to be finished today to exclude possible gcc 4.5 issues.
<ogra>    After it was made clear it is no toolchain issue we will involve QT upstream.
<ogra>  * Kernel is still 2.6.35 for OMAP 4. TI works hand in hand with linaro now to provide us a working 2.6.38 tree.
<ogra>    The work will be basically a rewrite of the .35 functionatilites, now targeting upstream development,
<ogra>    but sadly with a high feature regression potential for our time frame (.35 had about 2000 TI patches which will not all be forward
<ogra>    ported and partially be rewritten from scratch)
<ogra>  * Alpha 2 went out smoothly for ARMel
<ogra>  * WI work is still well going forward, decision about specs to drop will be made through next week,
<ogra>    the team tries to get down to a maximum of 10 WIs per person, since there are additional sidetracking issues (TI kernel, QT bug)
<ogra>  * QA reports currently no open SRUs to test
<ogra>  * Work for the minimal developer arm images on debian-cd is about to start
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Specs:
<ogra> Entire status: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm.html
<ogra> Milestone: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/natty/canonical-arm-natty-alpha-3.html
<ogra> ..
<ogra> Serious Bugs:
<ogra> bug 705689
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 705689 in qt4-x11 (Ubuntu Natty) "unity-2d-launcher crashes with segfault error on armel (natty only)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705689
<skaet> ..?
<ogra> ..
<ogra> :)
<ogra> sorry
<skaet> heh.   thanks ogra!
<skaet> happy to see ARMel in Alpha 2.  :)  re: 2.6.35 -> 2.6.38 and 2000 TI patches to shift,  urk.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> really scary and unexpected
<skaet> let us know next week, if there will be adjustments to the A3 tasks (am expecting there probably will be)
<skaet> any questions?
<ogra> (not the shift but the sudden decision to upstream them first)
 * skaet nods
<ogra> yup, we plan to have sorted the tracker by next week
<skaet> :)
<skaet> [Topic] MOTU team update - ScottK
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU team update - ScottK
<ScottK> Hello.
<skaet> :)
<ScottK> I'm concerned about the idea of removing Python 2.6.
<ScottK> Other than that, the situation is pretty much as it's been.
<ScottK> I'd like to see the analysis done on Main done on Universe/Multiverse before we even consider removing Python 2.6 in Natty.
<ScottK> The prime driver for removing it in this cycle seems to be CD space, but all the images currently fit, so I'd prefer not to jump off a cliff before the analysis of the landing pad is complete.
<ScottK> ..
<skaet> Thanks ScottK
<ogra> we also prefer if you dont jump off any cliffs btw
<ScottK> As long as you've a suitably prepared landing area, it can be a lot of fun.
<skaet> Will add it to the list to keep an eye on.   thanks for raising.
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] Linaro update - JamieBennett
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro update - JamieBennett
 * skaet looks around for JamieBennett 
 * JamieBennett waves
<skaet> :)
<JamieBennett> Nothing from Linaro this week, we released Alpha-2 on time and there are no impending bits to be put in the archive, all is quiet
<skaet> ..?
 * skaet wonders if JamieBennett is done, or typing....
<JamieBennett> skaet: sorry
<JamieBennett> EOF
<skaet> thanks JamieBennett
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [Topic] any other kudos/comments/questions?
<MootBot> New Topic:  any other kudos/comments/questions?
 * skaet looks around...
<skaet> no hands, so I guess thats it for this week.
<skaet> thanks everyone.
 * ogra wants to praise skaet for doing an awesome A2
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:09.
<pitti> ogra++
<marjo> thx skaet!
<skaet> thanks ogra - its an awesome team to work with!
<pitti> thanks everyone
<DrKenobi> next meeting kernel Q&A?
<jono> DrKenobi, yep :-)
<DrKenobi> jono, great!
<on3_g> <o/
<diflame> hii
<DrKenobi> \o/
<Uitm-Dungeon> .
<joker1319> ^^
<sam__> hello all
<joker1319> hi
<tom96> hi
<sam__> should we start up with the questions??????
<pgraner> sam__, no we are waiting on jono to kick us off
<KieferJackson> I already have a question about the GUI that many are concerned about
<Saber_> hi
<jono> pgraner, go ahead :-)
<jono> this is Pete time everyone! woo!
<pgraner> jono, Thanks pal!
<pgraner> Hi Everyone. My name is Pete Graner I manage the Ubuntu Kernel team.
<kernelscrashnvid> hi everybody
<SemSem> hi guys
<Saber_> hi
<SemSem> hi
<windows_> hi
<KieferJackson> hello
<windows_> hi windows here
<pgraner> jono tells me I'm here to answer questions about the Ubuntu Kernel, its process etc.
<Saber_> I'm new in this kind of meeting ^^
<pgraner> One quick note this is not a Q&A about specific bugs, we just don't have time for that sort of thing.
<pgraner> If you do have questions on bugs you can ask in #ubuntu-kernel on FreeNode and the kernel team will do its best to answer.
<KieferJackson> ok
<pgraner> Before we get started... please prefix any questions with "QUESTION:" so it makes it easier for me to pick them out.
<pgraner> Also I manage the team and as such I don't have all of the info on every bit of the kernel, I have members of the kernel team here who might jump in and answer from time to time.
<SemSem> why ubuntu always need updates and get slow after this updates ?
<pgraner> Ok lets get started.
<SemSem> and why i can't make an iamge from system after install updates and all application ?
<EslaMx7> hi all
<pgraner> SemSem, ubutnu is always getting stable updates, CVE security fixes and the like
<Saber_> Question : I want to know about the development of driver ( USB driver )
<EslaMx7> hi all
<rickspencer3> SemSem, if you want to ask a quesiton, start it with QUESTION: whatever your question is?
<EslaMx7> ?
<SemSem> ok
<Detoke> Hello :O
<rozan> hello I love ubuntu
<rickspencer3> otherwise, pgraner can't pick out the questions
<pgraner> SemSem,  as far as slowness goes I'm not familiar with any specifc issues like this
<rozan> I don't love microsoft
<manav> Question : want to learn abt kernel with aim of being a linux developer.How shud i go abt it?
<Detoke> mocosoft?
<pgraner> Saber_, specifically what USB driver?
<kernelscrashnvid> question why kernel 28 and higher crash my nvidia driver ?
<KieferJackson> QUESTION: Many have asked if the new task bar for Unity will have the option to be moved around to other sides of the screen in Ubuntu 11.04. Has anyone on the team taken this into consideration?
<Cloudy6111301> QUESTION: I am running 10.10 on a linksys 160N.  It kicks me off after about a minute.  s there a fix for this?
<yo_> theres is some issue regarding the visual iow-handler.
<pgraner> KieferJackson, this is kernel not desktop
<bjf> KieferJackson, this is the kernel team not the UI team, we can't help you there
<SemSem> "QUESTION" my company using windows server and windows xp and 7 ,, i'm IT there. i wish i can change all system to ubuntu server and client .. but you know files.exe is always the big problem .. why u don't make any simillar change so we can use direct without using wine !
<jono> QUICK ANNOUNCEMENT: folks, please chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat - just ask questions in here
<flying_sheep> QUESTION: why is Kubuntu indeed treated like the blue-headed stepchild and doesnât get a Ubuntu one client, launchpad integration, apt://-links, â¦
<Saber_> <pgraner> Question : how I can develop a USB driver for a device that I made using Microsheep PIC and added to the Kernel ??
<OkDucky> QUESTION: what pieces of the kernel does the Ubuntu team specifically target to improve/develop? as oppose to kernel development that goes on by all companies and individuals
<Saber_> <pgraner> Question : how may I develop a USB driver for a device that I made using Microsheep PIC and added to the Kernel ??
<KieferJackson> Sorry, i thought it was aboout the kernal update in general for Natty Narwal, as in 11.04
<Mark_M> gah
<pgraner> Ok now that the chatter has settled
<SemSem> peter ?
<Cloudy6111301> Mark_M is skitzo  :)
<compaq1223> ahh.
<pgraner> This session is on KERNEL questions, not Unity, desktop or userspace things
<pgraner> So.. with that said
<pahnin> question: my nvdia driver has non support yet, I get a blank screen while booting now using ubuntu with nomodeset option can it hve support in future?
<sconklin> ls
<Cloudy6111301> QUESTION: I am a noob.  what is a kernel?
<kernelscrashnvid> kernel for 10.10 dont installl nvidia drivers has it got something to do the kernel or is it nvidia who doesnt develop drivers for latest  ubuntu versions
<pgraner> Saber_, this is not that place to discuss how to write device drivers
<coffeholikas> QUETION: what's the recomended Software for Ubuntu programs creation?
<SemSem> "QUESTION" can ubuntu one day support files.exe direct without using wine  ???????
<benjamim_gois> QUESTION: What is the current state of vga_switcheroo on the kernel ? does it evolve since 2.6.35 ?
<jono> FOLKS: PLEASE ASK YOUR QUESTIONS AND CHATTER IN #ubuntu-classroom-chat - WE ARE MODERATING THIS CHANNEL SO THERE IS LESS NOISE
<kernelscrashnvid> QUESTION: kernel for 10.10 dont installl nvidia drivers has it got something to do the kernel or is it nvidia who doesnt develop drivers for latest  ubuntu versions
<SemSem> "QUESTION" "QUESTION" "QUESTION" "QUESTION" can ubuntu one day support files.exe direct without using wine  ???????
<Cloudy6111301> Kernel Sanders
<pgraner> SemSem, I have no idea what you are talking about
<pgraner> SemSem, that is not kernel related
<yo_> exe is base on win32 arch.
<KieferJackson> Question: Will the kernal update have support for the new CR-48 laptops from Google, considering they are specifically built for Chrome OS?
<SemSem> i can't run any files with extention .exe
<SemSem> can ubuntu one day support files.exe direct without using wine  ???????
<spidercaleb> SemSem, use wine
<spidercaleb> oh, then no
<rozan> @semsem
<khloroform> SemSem...relax :P
<rozan> that is windows
<yo_> use windows 7
<Saber_> ok sorry, Question : if you don't mind may I give you my email adress then I will contact you with email ???
<rozan> use wine semsem
<pgraner> SemSem, No it won't support it
<pgraner> Saber_, its is a prop driver and it has not yet caught up
<rozan> @semsem use wine
<pgraner> Saber_, we hope to have an updated driver from Nvidia before release
<kernelscrashnvid> QUESTION: kernel for 10.10 dont installl nvidia drivers has it got something to do the kernel or is it nvidia who doesnt develop drivers for latest  ubuntu versions
<KieferJackson> QUESTION: Will the new kernal update have hardware support for the new CR-48 laptops from google considering they are build for Chrome OS?
<OkDucky> QUESTION: what pieces of the kernel does the Ubuntu team specifically target to improve/develop? as oppose to kernel development that goes on by all companies and individuals
<pgraner> kernelscrashnvid, see answer above
<pgraner> KieferJackson, don't know until we see the hardware and bios
<SemSem> okk thnxx so much peter :)
<kernelscrashnvid> didn notice u answered back , sorry
<sforshee> Cloudy6111301: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computing)
<Saber_>  ok sorry, Question : if you don't mind may I give you my email adress then I will contact you with email ???
<SemSem> but i wish one day ubuntu run files.exe and i will make mercedes-benz gonna use it instead of microsoft
<benjamim_gois> i prefer video-chat on ustram the way JONO make. There's to much noise here
<Darrell_> i would like to know why wont wine work properly with windows apps when they work with ubuntu in wine and i have done every thing right
<pgraner> OkDucky, we have a team that procures some of the latest hardware and then we do our best to enable it for the current dev version of ubuntu
<jono> benjamim_gois, trying to fix this when we find an op
<pgraner> QUESTION: I am running 10.10 on a linksys 160N.  It kicks me off after about a minute.  s there a fix for this?
<pgraner> No there is not, its designed for windows only
<khloroform> QUESTION: because ubuntu is a linux distro for human being, why do not include all "normal" video drivers like nvidia and ATI by default?
<pgraner> khloroform, we can't due to licensing, we make them available thru jocky post installation
<kernelscrashnvid> dont see any reference at all about what i asked pgraner
<SemSem> "QUESTION" how can i use webi to instal another verison of linux ..
<pgraner> SemSem, this is not a kernel question
<kernelscrashnvid> kernel for 10.10 dont installl nvidia drivers has it got something to do the kernel or is it nvidia who doesnt develop drivers for latest  ubuntu versions
<pgraner> kernelscrashnvid, its nvidia not keeping up with upstream
<jono> OK FOLKS, THERE IS TOO MUCH NOISE - WE ARE TAKING THE Q+A TO #ubuntu-classroom
<jono> PLEASE GO THERE TO CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION WITH pgraner
<SemSem> "QUESTION" after i instal nividia driver i find that ubuntu open with low contrast logo in booting !!
<Taek> kernelscrashnvid: They've already answered that about 10 minutes ago.
<KieferJackson> QUESTION: what security/bug fixes can you hi-light in the new kernal release?
<DrKenobi> jono \o/ great, this is really bad
<Aditya> How to repair a broken system???
<jono> HEAD TO #ubuntu-classroom FOLKS
<GauravButola> Question : How exactly does the glorified 200 lines kernel patch will benefit in 11.04
<SemSem> "QUESTION"" how can i talk with some one in ubuntu and can answer my question ????????
<doctormo> jono: I'll lock up here, don't worry.
<h00k> Can everyone please head over to #ubuntu-classroom, it would be greatly appreciated.
<doctormo> SemSem and GauravButola, please move to #ubuntu-classroom
<jono> thanks doctormo
<Saber_> Question : the kernel is became more and more bigger  because of the add of the kernel... don't you have a target to separate the them from the kernel ( like in Minix ) ??
<doctormo> Saber_: Please move to #ubuntu-classroom
<Aditya> can't we do backup in ubuntu like in XP?
<kernelscrashnvid> where's ubutu-classroom
<SemSem> why ? peter not answer any of my questions !!
<doctormo> SemSem: You're asking in the wrong place
<h00k> kernelscrashnvid: /join #ubuntu-classroom
<SemSem> i need some speicalist answer me in ubuntu
<ikonia> SemSem: support is in #ubuntu
<SemSem> okk .. thnx guys
<SemSem> hasta luego
<kernelscrashnvid> how to , hook?
<Dubs_> hello Room
<doctormo> Aditya: That's a question for http://askubuntu.com/ and KERNEL questions, please type /join #ubuntu-classroom
<KieferJackson> @SemSem this is for kernal questions only. None of your questions will be answered here unless you know what your talking about
<Saber_> Sorry for bothering you people , have a nice day bye
<Dubs_> i am having problem with natty installing by upgrade its not going through any one help
<Darrell_> why have this chat when you write some thing and no one anwsers
<doctormo> Darrell_: People answer
<KieferJackson> QUESTION: what specific bug fixes can you hi-light in the new kernal release?
<rickspencer3> THEM MEETING MOVED TO #ubuntu-classroom
<doctormo> KieferJackson: Please ask your question in the #ubuntu-classroom-chat room
<rickspencer3> ask your quesitons in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<Darrell_> yh right ive wrote 2 things so far and no one aint anwsered
<doctormo> Darrell_: Did you ask kernel questions? did you ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat?
<sebsebseb> Hi
<doctormo> Hey sebsebseb
<rickspencer3> Darrell_, go to #ubuntu-classroom-chat, and ask your question there, start it with QUESTION: and make it about the kernel
<Tach> hi
<rickspencer3> Tach, the kernel Q+A moved to #ubuntu-classroom
<Darrell_> why are peoples ip address show breach of privacy
<KieferJackson> @<doctormo> Has the session ended for the meeting? My question is relevant here.
<Tach> thanks for the info
<doctormo> KieferJackson: Yes, this meeting is over.
<Darrell_> i got all your ip addresses now for some hacking cool
<kernelscrashnvid> cannot send anything to ubuntu classroom
<sebsebseb> rickspencer3: ok thanks for info (even though not aimed directly at me :D)
<m4n1sh> kernelscrashnvid: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<rickspencer3> kernelscrashnvid, ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<apw_> over in #ubuntu-classroom
<doctormo> Darrell_: Please don't troll the irc chat channel, if you must hack into people's computers, do it quietly.
<Boo_> wow
<Boo_> many ppl here
<KieferJackson> Its a shame most people decided to goof off instead of asking serious questions related to the topic.
<doctormo> KieferJackson: That's why we had to move it.
<rickspencer3> KieferJackson, welcoem to the internet :/
<drGspot> join simplymepis
<PhilT_> is this Weekly Q&A ?
<PhilT_> with Pete Graner, Kernel Engineering Manager
<portobello> PhilT_: go to #ubuntu-classroom
<naditya> hello
<doctormo> hey naditya
<naditya> can you help me?
<PhilT_> Fail : Post it's in meeting and run it in classroom
<JFo> PhilT_, it originally was here
<JFo> but the participation was so great that it had to be moved
<JFo> PhilT_, it is in #ubuntu-classroom now
<JFo> you can ask questiot channelns in the -cha
<JFo> <-fail
<JFo> you can ask questions in the -chat channel
<Middle> Hello/
<Middle> Heard the kernel engineer was here?
<derrekito> That
<Middle> he gone?
<derrekito> That's what I heard, that's why I'm here.
<Middle> yeah in teh comment on Fail book it said in clasroom
<New> Hello
<derrekito> He shouldn't be.  It was scheduled for 5:30 UTC, it's 6:14 UTC right now.
<Middle> i joined but i had no voice so i kisda miss the point of that
<Middle> oh ok
<Middle> feck it lol
<Middle> i was jsut wondering how i can like get a job/contribute with them
<derrekito> For details on the Q&A session see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WeeklyQandA
<amanz> my goodness
<AlanBell> the Q&A was moved
<AlanBell> it is now in #ubuntu-classroom
<m4n1sh> yes
<m4n1sh> go fast
<derrekito> thank you
<m4n1sh> Jono would close it anytime
<AlanBell> you can ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<m4n1sh> since not many questions are asked
<m4n1sh> right now no one is asking
<amanz> anyone know how run yahoo massanger in Ubuntu 10:10
<amanz> and how run broadband on kubuntu 10.10?
<charlie-tca> !support
<ubottu> The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org and http://askubuntu.com
<amanz> tq..for info
<gulas> hello
<iPodBoy> Hello
<siliconephil> hi
<amanz> Ubuntu can play windows game or not?
<m4n1sh> amanz: not all. some can be played on wine
<m4n1sh> amanz: this is meeting channel BTW
<amanz> oook just need help hii
<marksch1> What sense does it make to visit a channel where nothing happens, except for people entering and leaving?
<FreeDumb> What time is the webinar going to start?
<pasha> hi to all
<Jamuzu> Hello, everybody! :D
<Jamuzu> Is the Pete Graner's meeting over?
<maco> the Q&A? yes
<m4n1sh> Jamuzu: yes. Check the logs.
<maco> it ended a while ago in #ubuntu-classroom
<Jamuzu> Geez!
<m4n1sh> Jamuzu: or check this http://goo.gl/VUYLZ for logs
<Jamuzu> gr8, thnx!
<m4n1sh> i turned it into readable format
<Jamuzu> Thank you very much, m4n1sh!
<m4n1sh> you are welcome
<Jamuzu> I'll save it to .pdf if you don't mind, m4n1sh
<m4n1sh> Jamuzu: ah sure. Lemme make the license explicit
<Kaptein> Did i miss it?
<m4n1sh> CC license
<m4n1sh> go enjoy, share
<m4n1sh> Kaptein: yes
<Kaptein> Doh! :(
<m4n1sh> it was on #ubuntu-classroom
<Jamuzu> Yes, thanks!
<m4n1sh> Kaptein: I carved out a readable format of the Q&A http://goo.gl/VUYLZ
<m4n1sh> Jamuzu: share it as much as you like. Under CC license
<m4n1sh> anyway it is not my content. I don't own the copyright anyway. Sorry. I cannot specify the license
<Lancemaster> m4n1sh looks like a password
<m4n1sh> Lancemaster: password?
<Lancemaster> m4n1sh: Yeah, it looks like somebodys password
<m4n1sh> the URL?
<Lancemaster> ??
<m4n1sh> Lancemaster: password of?
<m4n1sh> which thing looks like password?
<Lancemaster> m4n1sh: The string "m4n1sh" looks like a password because it has mixed letters and numbers! :D
<m4n1sh> Lancemaster: ah. It's my name manish in leet form :)
<anant> ?
<jl_> Missed the meeting eh?
<m4n1sh> jl_: it was on #ubuntu-classroom and not here
<jl_> cheers
<genux> is this channel working for live kernel questions ?
<genux> I was just wondering about the kernel memory allocation and the process within that ..
<mytrix> aongolikur
<mytrix> songolikur
<pleia2> genux: you missed it, it was a couple hours ago in #ubuntu-classroom, you can see the logs here:  http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<genux> thanks.. pleia2
<nordlicht> Am I too late?;)
<pleia2> yes, you can see the logs here: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<nordlicht> Damn. But, thank you.
<luuuuuuuu> hello
<luuuuuuuu> anybody
<luuuuuuuu> online
<luuuuuuuu> hello
<AlanBell> luuuuuuuu: try in #ubuntu for support
<luuuuuuuu> #ubuntu
<AlanBell> or if you were looking for the kernel Q&A you missed it, logs are here http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<AlanBell> it is "/join #ubuntu"
<luuuuuuuu> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-
<luuuuuuuu> i missed it
<AlanBell> there will be another
<luuuuuuuu> cool,thanks
<LuisfernandoGNU> Hi there
<lol> hi
<lol> Hello?
<Guest12496> Wow!
<mustu> join #ubuntu-meeting
<charlie-tca> it worked
<julibauc> hola
<julibauc> hello...??
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-05
<Landon_> Will there be more compatability in Natty Narwhal
<Hssnx> Hii
<dumper_> quit
<nigelb> add a slash before q
<nmvictor> I heard, but belated, that the ubuntu kernel engineering manager was answering questions on this channel some 14hrs ago(according to facebook). How can I get a logged copy of that meeting?
<sagaci> Via irc logs
<nmvictor> sagaci, would you please point me to the exact address,if you dont mind?
<sagaci> Google ubuntu irc logs
<sagaci> I would but i'm not on a suitable web browser
<sagaci> And it's in the topic
<Psych> what is your email address?
<Psych> I will email it to you
<nmvictor> sagaci, thanks anyway.
<Psych> Anyone else want it emailed before I send it off?
<Psych> nmvictor
<Psych> did you want me to email it off to you?
<nmvictor> Psych, yea
<tsimpson> nmvictor: it wasn't in here, it was in #ubuntu-classroom
<nmvictor> i'd appreciate
<Psych> What is your email address?
<tsimpson> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/04/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
<nmvictor> tsimpson, the facebook link pointed to this channel
<tsimpson> yeah, but it wasn't here
<nmvictor> Psych, I PM'ed you my email
<tsimpson> people make mistakes ;)
<Psych> Just sent the email
<Psych> its long.
<maco> oh that explains the other person who came here instead of there
<nmvictor> Psych, thanks
<Psych> because it is the transcript of everything since 9AM
<Psych> I just copy pasted it
<Psych> I wasn't able to participate, so I just left the window open all day.
<valorie> if you read the logs here, you'll understand why it was moved
<valorie> what a mess
<sudo_zoel> helo everybody
<sudo_zoel> does anyone can help me?
<sudo_zoel> i have a problem with my ubuntu.
<sudo_zoel> window border is disappear in any application
<tsimpson> sudo_zoel: #ubuntu is the support channel
<funpython> hello
<jjnjn> HEY
<besogon> hi. I'm about to ask a question about cdrecord and wodim. Looking through the page http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/cdrecord.html I found out the line "Warning: do not use Debian binaries/sources as they include many Debian specific bugs and still do not run correctly on Linux-2.6" and read following paragraph. It wasn't pleased me.
<bazhang> besogon, #ubuntu for support
<besogon> OK. May be I'm not right and being in not  the place where I must be. Still I have a question to kernel maintainers of ubuntu. http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/man/README/README.ATAPI I suppose we (Users) need ATAPI that let us burning CD/DVD faster and stable then we do it now. For me it is a hard Adventure game to build my own kernel as I don't know in it nothing still I would prefer using cdrecord with ATAPI and DMA support to wo
<bazhang> besogon, yeah, thats for #ubuntu not here
<besogon> :)
<besogon> ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-02-06
<grasshopper> df#
<zoug> any random socal meeting i should be aware of?
<sadeq> hey guys, who should I contact if my @ubuntu email, be not created since 1 of feb?
<sadeq> ?
<maco> given theres no meeting rigt now, probalby nobody is paying attention. and the fact that this channel is unrelated to launchpad
<maco> anyway, id guess go bug launchpad people but dont expect an answer til monday
<maco> since i dont think they work on sundays
<sadeq> :), ok tnx
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-30
<ara> o/
<cr3> #startmeeting Ubuntu Friendly
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 30 16:00:18 2012 UTC.  The chair is cr3. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting | Current topic:
<cr3> Hi everyone, welcome to the weekly Ubuntu Friendly meeting
<roadmr> hey!
<cr3> hi ara and roadmr, anyone else around?
<cr3> jedimike: hi there, I was just thinking of you, glad you could join us!
<jedimike> hi!
<cr3> telepathic ping
<cr3> topics for today are:
<cr3> * Linking to Ubuntu Friendly after running Checkbox: cr3
<cr3> * AOB
<cr3> Let's get started!
<cr3> #topic Linking to Ubuntu Friendly after running Checkbox
<jedimike> o/
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting | Current topic:  Linking to Ubuntu Friendly after running Checkbox
<cr3> jedimike: 'sup?
<jedimike> i think we should link to UF after running checkbox, only if the UF requirements have been met (that is, no tests were manually deselected at the start of the test run) and if the requirements were not met, have a message saying how to participate in UF with future test runs
<jedimike> otherwise we might get a lot of incomplete runs that don't make it, and have people wondering why
<jedimike> ..
<cr3> jedimike: would you mind if I postpone an answer to that until I give a little summary of the topic?
<jedimike> cr3: not at all :)
<jedimike> i may have jumped the gun a bit there I realise now ;)
<cr3> This weekend, I sent a message to the ubuntu-friendly-squad mailing list about linking to the Ubuntu Friendly website on the last screen of running Checkbox.
<cr3> In summary, the problem is that the current process is synchronous: http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/launchpad-results/before.png
<cr3> The solution is that the process should be more asynchronous: http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/launchpad-results/after.png
<cr3> First, this requires uploading submissions to the Results Tracker which would be a proxy to Launchpad for safe keeping.
<cr3> Second, this also requires introducing the concept of a message queue to allow checkbox and Ubuntu Friendly to subscribe to message queues.
<cr3> jedimike: I was prepared, so we should now address your concern.
<cr3> jedimike: I agree with you but I have to admit that no solution comes to mind :(
<cr3> jedimike: one solution that just came to mind might be if consumers of the message queue could someone inject their own queues to which other consumers like checkbox could subscribe
<cr3> jedimike: I'm not partitularly familiar with message queues nor their best practices, so what would you say if I assign myself an action item to get back to you?
<jedimike> cr3: sounds good, I only have minimal experience too
<cr3> jedimike: if we solve the problem you raised, that would also solve the other problem I wanted to discuss today:
<cr3> The only caveat is the slight delay between the time the user receives a message that the submission has been processed by the Results Tracker and the time Ubuntu Friendly has finished processing the results for that submission.
<ara> o/
<roadmr> o/
<cr3> #action cr3 to explore message queues so that two consumers could commmunicate with each other, ie Ubuntu Friendly to dispatch a message to Checkbox so that it knows the submission is valid
<meetingology> ACTION: cr3 to explore message queues so that two consumers could commmunicate with each other, ie Ubuntu Friendly to dispatch a message to Checkbox so that it knows the submission is valid
<cr3> ara: the floor is yours
<ara> for simplicity, maybe we should only provide the link back to UF to those that are not submitting anonymously, and, for those that provided their launchpad account,  just send them an email when the result made it to UF (with the link) or a message that it ddidn't make it to UF if it didn't contain enough results
<ara> ..
<cr3> ara: you mean a generic link to UF, not their submission, right?
<ara> cr3, their submission
<ara> (for those that provided their lp id)
<cr3> ara: they just provide an email address so, whether it points to a valid launchpad account or not, you're saying we should email them as a best effort, right?
<ara> cr3, from 12.04 they will provide their launchpad id or just submit anonymously
<cr3> ara: I'm not sure I understand how we can provide a "link back to UF to those that are not submitting anonymously", are you saying using the message queue I proposed or something else?
<ara> cr3, what I am trying to suggest is to avoid putting the information back into checkbox, just keep everything on the server side
<cr3> ara: so just email, right?
<ara> yes
<cr3> ara: ok, that's clear. I'd like to see how others feel about this idea rather than a more elaborate message queue:
<cr3> #vote Do you think we should email users instead of providing the feedback directly in Checkbox?
<meetingology> Please vote on: Do you think we should email users instead of providing the feedback directly in Checkbox?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<cr3> +1 (email seems like an easy first step, message queues can come later)
<meetingology> +1 (email seems like an easy first step, message queues can come later) received from cr3
<ara> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ara
<roadmr> +1 and if the email bounces, we zap the submission :)
<meetingology> +1 and if the email bounces, we zap the submission :) received from roadmr
<jedimike> +! good solution while we don't have the queues
<jedimike> +1 good solution while we don't have the queues
<meetingology> +1 good solution while we don't have the queues received from jedimike
<cr3> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Do you think we should email users instead of providing the feedback directly in Checkbox?
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cr3> awesome, thanks folks!
<cr3> roadmr: finally, your turn (I didn't forget)
<roadmr> cr3: I'll just post as I had it prepared, but I think the vote rendered it moot
<roadmr> Awesome, Ara proposes simplicity, my idea just complicates things more :) maybe checkbox can show a "processing..." progress dialog while UF finishes, and once UF sends the message saying it did, then checkbox pops up the (now functional) link. A safety timeout should be in place to keep users from staring at a checkbox progress bar longer than necessary :)
<roadmr> and one question, what tool did you use for the diagrams? :)
<roadmr> ..
<cr3> roadmr: plotutils package, pic2plot command
<cr3> roadmr: if you want the source, replace .png with .pic... and there's also a Makefile in the same directory
<cr3> http://people.canonical.com/~cr3/launchpad-results/
<cr3> roadmr: your idea of "processing..." only works if the whole process becomes asynchronous, the current synchronous cron process would not lend itself well to interaction with the user
<cr3> roadmr: however, the idea of introducing the message queue is exactly to provide the user experience you propose: 1. "processing..."; 2. url to *their* hardware in Ubuntu Friendly.
<cr3> anything else on this topic?
<cr3> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<cr3> anyone have any friendliness on their mind for today?
<balloons> quickly in summary, you guys agreed to do away with the launchpad processing queues right?
<cr3> balloons: for the time being, seems like everyone would like to see an email dispatched
<roadmr> o/
<cr3> roadmr: go ahead
<roadmr> I'd be kinda curious to see updated UF statistics now that we're deeper into Oneiric's 6 months of fame, are these available anywhere?
<roadmr> oops :) if not, can they be generated, would this be of interest?
<roadmr> ..
<jedimike> o/
<cr3> jedimike: your turn
<jedimike> we can regenerate the stats we had before with the latest data
<jedimike> there was a request for more detailed stats, but we need to do a bit more development to get them
<cr3> jedimike: should I add an action item for you?
<jedimike> but the simple ones (submissions, etc.) we can get
<jedimike> cr3: yep
<jedimike> ..
<cr3> #action jedimike to regenerate the stats we had before with the latest data
<meetingology> ACTION: jedimike to regenerate the stats we had before with the latest data
<cr3> anything else?
<cr3> seems like we've covered everything...
<cr3> Thanks all for attending and for your comments and feedback! Have a great day!
<cr3> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 30 16:31:42 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-30-16.00.moin.txt
<ara> thanks cr3!
<roadmr> thanks!
<cr3> it was fun :)
<greyback> cr3: hey, I'm going to seem like a complete imbecile, but Checkbox is something I know nothing about really. It's a system for manual testing or no?
<roadmr> greyback: it can do that, or it can work in automatic, headless mode
<cr3> greyback: it's for integrating test suites but also supports manual tests indeed
<greyback> roadmr: cr3: hmm, ok. I'm a unity-2d guy, and am interested in how these things can work together. We're  using a ruby-based automated test system, but I'm curious how other people do it, and how they handle manual tests
<cr3> greyback: you work with agateau, right? him and didrocks have been working on checkbox-unity which simply checkbox with some unity specific tests
<cr3> greyback: it is intended to enable the community to participate in testing which is where manual testing might be handy
<greyback> cr3: Sure. I must check out checkbox-unity and see how well it applies to unity-2d (or not)
<cr3> greyback: however, if you need a unit test suite, I'd recommend something that is most native to your project. somehow, I'm surprised you chose ruby, what was the motivation for this system?
<roadmr> cr3:  because ruby rocks :P
<greyback> cr3: we're using a test system called "Testability Driver" which allows inspection of Qt-based applications in great detail. It's scripted in Ruby, so we're using that
<greyback> roadmr: never used it til now, some bits wreck my head, but it's nice :(
<cr3> roadmr: sure, but forth also rocks and you don't see me using forth test suites :)
<roadmr> cr3: heh :) yes, greyback's reply makes more sense than mine
<roadmr> cr3: on the bright side, we could all be using java :( and we're not
<greyback> roadmr: cr3: thanks for the info, I've something new to check out. If I can make manual-testers' lives easier, it'll be worth it
<roadmr> cr3: seriously, maybe they chose ruby because it's good for domain-specific mini-languages (see rails, even puppet)
<roadmr> they as in the creators of "testability driver"
<cr3> greyback: if "Testability Driver" works for you, I'd suggest you keep using it. if you start needing multiple test frameworks together, then perhaps checkbox might be useful to run them together and unify the test results
<cr3> roadmr: I'm all for using the right tool for the right job
<greyback> cr3: it's worth looking into. In future there is hope to unify 3d & 2d's test=suites using cucumber/lettuce
<roadmr> hm, vegetables
<cr3> roadmr: is it just me or does ruby lend itself well to DSLs?
<greyback> roadmr: I've no idea why they used Ruby. All the scripts are doing is parsing XML really
<roadmr> cr3: not you, it does
<roadmr> greyback: well I'd have to look at the tool to see how it's used
<greyback> roadmr: sure. I'm no Ruby jockey, am just getting by :)
<cr3> greyback: I've been reluctant to jump on the BDD bandwagon so I'll be very interested to hear if you finally adopt cucumber/lettuce
<greyback> cr3: Originally I avoided it too, yet another layer of abstraction complicating things. But it might help close delta between 2d & 3d
<greyback> It'll be investigated next cycle. Tis all I'm going to push for
<cr3> greyback: indeed, I'm seeing BDD as a bridge between people like customer/client or manager/developer, but it might be interesting that it could maybe bridge between technologies or projects too
<greyback> cr3: developer/designer was a suggestion too
<greyback> cr3: agreed. Personally I'm sceptical, but it's worth a go
<cr3> greyback: agreed, but between unity 2d/3d, that's very interesting! I'll have to remember to ping you next cycle about it :)
<greyback> cr3: sure thing
<cr3> cheerio folks, thanks again for the excellent meeting!
<mdeslaur> \o
<micahg> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<sbeattie> o/
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> sorry a tad late
<jdstrand> let's get started
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 30 18:05:47 2012 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> FeatureFreeze is coming in a little more than two weeks (February 16th). Please try to finish any non-bugfix work items that are tied to the release by this date. Please talk to mdeslaur (and optionally me)  soon if there are issues meeting this deadline. This is particularly true for essential and high priority items.
<jdstrand> * Thanks
<jdstrand> Jame Page (jamespage) provided oneiric debdiffs for Jenkins (LP: #914628)
<jdstrand> Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of any previous action items
<jamespage> jdstrand, np
<jdstrand> :)
<jdstrand> ACTION: jdstrand to make sure ubuntu-security gets QRT bug mail: DONE
<jdstrand> ACTION: sbeattie to follow up on qrt bugs from QA team
<jdstrand> sbeattie: iirc, you did that, right? ^
<sbeattie> jdstrand: bah, no, sorry, will do this week
<sbeattie> please keep the action around
<jdstrand> sbeattie: hmm, I think there might not be any more, but yes, please do. thanks
<jdstrand> [ACTION] sbeattie to follow up on qrt bugs from QA team
<meetingology> ACTION: sbeattie to follow up on qrt bugs from QA team
<sbeattie> well, nuclearbob set the status of those to opinion
<sbeattie> which treats them as closed.
<sbeattie> Anyway.
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> In addition to updates, etc, last week I focused a lot on improvements to UCT for CVE triage, particularly around triaging the output of the locate_cves.py script that mdeslaur wrote
<jdstrand> I've handed off the remaining CVEs to tyhicks, and we will pass the list around til we are caught up
<jdstrand> I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> patch piloting today
<jdstrand> have a lot of audits to do-- didn't do any last week
<jdstrand> I would like to finish the essential work items I have that are tied to the release this week. hopefully won't take long
<jdstrand> I'll do an update if I have time
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm working at testing a couple of embargoed updates that will be published tomorrow, and will pick some stuff off the CVE list to fix next
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week, and that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm also in the happy place this week.
<sbeattie> Working on finishing up the openssl and glibc updates I have on my plate
<sbeattie> I'll also peek at my work items
<sbeattie> that's pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> micahg: ?
<micahg> I'm trying to get a new chromium in precise before alpha2 (unfortunately, just i386 and amd64 ATM), it's Mozilla release week, so we'll be updating all releases to Firefox 10
<micahg> Rapid release migration was finished last week \o/
<mdeslaur> \o/
<micahg> at least for Firefox :), we're considering doing thunderbird during the 10 timeframe though as well
<jdstrand> \o/
<micahg> I think that's it for me
 * jdstrand hugs micahg 
<mdeslaur> micahg: did we get any major issues, or did everything go smoothly?
<jdstrand> I know that was not the easiest thing, but hopefully now things will get better on the mozilla front
<micahg> mdeslaur: mostly smoothly, we missed promoting a lot of stuff
<micahg> and there's an ubufox upgrade bug from the stable PPA to the archive which I'll fix when we push out 10
<mdeslaur> micahg: ok, minor things...good job!
<tyhicks> I'm in the triage role this week
<micahg> yeah, we caught the larger regressions in -proposed :)
<jdstrand> micahg: nice job
<jdstrand> anecdotally, lucid users I know had no issues
<jdstrand> tyhicks: sorry, please proceed
<tyhicks> no problem :)
<tyhicks> I'm in the triage role
<tyhicks> I'll be working on triaging the CVE's that jdstrand mentioned above
<tyhicks> I didn't get to my update queue like I had planned last week, due to some work items stealing focus, but I completed those and I will focus on my update queue this week
<tyhicks> That's it for me - jjohansen?
<jdstrand> jjohansen is out today
<jdstrand> I know he is working hard on work items and updates as they come up
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ocrodjvu.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libspring-security-2.0-java.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/hammerhead.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ziproxy.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/smbind.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<kalimojo> hi
<jdstrand> kalimojo: hi. this is the weekly ubuntu-security meeting. do you have something to discuss with us?
<kalimojo> i was looking for help on image editing sw
<jdstrand> kalimojo: you would probably want #ubuntu on Freenode
<kalimojo> ok
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 30 18:26:10 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-30-18.05.moin.txt
<tyhicks> thanks, jdstrand
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<kalimojo> quit
<nessita> hello everyone
<dobey> 1 minute still :)
 * stgraber waves
<dobey> hi stgraber
<tumbleweed> hi
<stgraber> micahg, tumbleweed, bdrung, Laney, cody-somerville: ping
<micahg> o/
<bdrung> o/
 * tumbleweed was deep in code and almost forgot
<stgraber> #startmeeting Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 30 19:01:56 2012 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<cody-somerville> Hi
<stgraber> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<stgraber> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review of previous action items
<stgraber> so as you probably noticed, after discussion with the TB, I (with my TB hat on) updated the expiry for the DMB members terms based on what was sent by e-mail to the TB
<stgraber> this should be a lot more consistent now than it was before and should make renewing the board easier
<stgraber> cody-somerville: and news on your action or should we keep it there?
<stgraber> (cody-somerville to write some documentation on how to endorse someone)
<cody-somerville> Nothing new to report. Forgot to get around to it last meeting.
 * cody-somerville writes it at the top of his todo list in big letters.
<stgraber> #topic Package Sets - Ubuntu One
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Package Sets - Ubuntu One
<stgraber> proposal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RodneyDawes/UbuntuOnePackageSetApplication
<cody-somerville> Is Rodney here?
<dobey> hi
<cody-somerville> dobey, Hi. Can you introduce yourself and your proposal?
<stgraber> I'm failing to see rhythmbox-ubuntuone in the archive (under either name listed on the wiki)
<dobey> hi, i'm rodney dawes, on the ubuntu one team, and have been uploading several ubuntu one packages. we want to hae a package set to make it easier to manage the packages we have in ubuntu.
<dobey> stgraber: it was dropped in oneiric, and we will have a release of it tomorrow, which should be going back into precise as rhythmbox-ubuntuone
<stgraber> dobey: ok, for the record we can't give access to non-existing source packages, so if the package set is approved, you'll have to send an e-mail to devel-permissions asking for rhythmbox-ubuntuone to be added once it's in the archive (no extra meeting needed for that kind of change though)
<dobey> stgraber: ok, that is fine.
<bdrung> should be magicicada in the package set?
<nessita> bdrung, no, thank you, magicicada is a non official project
<dobey> bdrung: no, it's not an official ubuntu one package, and is a side project for a couple of the developers
<bdrung> k
<micahg> dobey: that doesn't technically matter whether it's official or not if it should be part of the packageset, but rather if U1 devs might need to make changes to it and are trusted to do so
<dobey> micahg: sure. if nessita wants it added to the package set then we can add it, i suppose. but i'll leave that up to her as it's her project.
<bdrung> do we have a description of the proposed package set?
<nessita> micahg, thanks for the clarification. The devs involved in magicicada would like not to be part of that package set
<dobey> bdrung: beyond what is in the proposal?
<stgraber> bdrung: not that I can find (either on the wiki or mailing-list)
<micahg> dobey: this is the criteria for which we can add new packages based on e-mails to devel-permissions
<stgraber> dobey: when creating a package set we now require a description of the package set that will be used as criteria for inclusion of additional packages
<stgraber> dobey: anything matching that description will be added to the package set without the need for a meeting
<dobey> stgraber: ah. i wasn't able to find any formal documentation on the wiki on applying for a package set. i just found an old application for bzr, and used it as a template. :-/
<nessita> proposed description: "The package set includes those packages that run in the user ubuntu desktop, and is part of the Ubuntu One project (http://launchpad.net/ubuntuone)"
<tumbleweed> dobey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#FormingDelegate
<dobey> so, let's say "Packages for which Ubuntu One developers will generally need to have upload privileges for, assuming they have been approved by the DMB."
<micahg> nessita: it's more a criteria for packages rather than a description
<stgraber> micahg: though "Packages that are part of http://launchpad.net/ubuntuone and in the Ubuntu archive" sounds like it'd match and is easy enough to check
<dobey> tumbleweed: ah, confusion. i was looking at that before, and micahg was saying "what you need is a package set, not a delegated team" and when i searched for "package set" on the wiki, i got no useful results beyond the old bzr application :-/
<micahg> meh, some of those seem iffy, like evo-couchdb
<dobey> tumbleweed: perhaps we could clarify that messaging somewhat :)
<nessita> micahg, "The package X should be part of the package set if is part of the Ubuntu One project and runs in the ubuntu desktop"?
<bdrung> suggestion: "Packages from subprojects of http://launchpad.net/ubuntuone that are in the Ubuntu archive"
<dobey> micahg: i'd say that's only iffy because we will stop supporting it, and probably won't be uploading it anyway. though in the future we'll probably have an evolution-u1db or something to replace it :)
<stgraber> nessita: "runs in the ubuntu desktop" doesn't really mean anything, at least not anything we can check. Does run mean doesn't crash, does it mean is seeded in a supported seed, does it mean, it's on a media, ...
<stgraber> bdrung: +1
<dobey> bdrung: wfm.
<micahg> well, I guess if they can break some parts of the desktop, what's a few more :P
<micahg> and I guess they are technically upstream for it
<nessita> stgraber, right, I was referring to "live" in the ubuntu archive, like bdrung says
<stgraber> nessita: ok, that sounds good and is easy to check (as if the package wasn't we couldn't grant you upload rights to it anyway ;))
<nessita> :-)
<bdrung> we probably could reduce the criteria to "Packages from subprojects of http://launchpad.net/ubuntuone"
<bdrung> the package needs to be in the ubuntu archive anyway
<stgraber> bdrung: indeed
<stgraber> are we ready to vote?
<dobey> sure
<bdrung> stgraber: with the proposed criteria?
<stgraber> bdrung: yes, package list that's on the wiki minus rhythmbox-ubuntuone and with "Packages from subprojects of http://launchpad.net/ubuntuone" as criteria
<bdrung> i am ready
<stgraber> micahg, tumbleweed, Laney, cody-somerville: ?
 * micahg too
<tumbleweed> sure
<stgraber> #vote Creation of an UbuntuOne package set with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RodneyDawes/UbuntuOnePackageSetApplication as initial list (minus rhythmbox-ubuntuone) and "Packages from subprojects of http://launchpad.net/ubuntuone" as criteria
<meetingology> Please vote on: Creation of an UbuntuOne package set with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RodneyDawes/UbuntuOnePackageSetApplication as initial list (minus rhythmbox-ubuntuone) and "Packages from subprojects of http://launchpad.net/ubuntuone" as criteria
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<cody-somerville> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cody-somerville
<cody-somerville> (for packages listed on wiki)
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Creation of an UbuntuOne package set with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RodneyDawes/UbuntuOnePackageSetApplication as initial list (minus rhythmbox-ubuntuone) and "Packages from subprojects of http://launchpad.net/ubuntuone" as criteria
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<stgraber> ok, I'll create the package set post meeting
<nessita> nice!
<dobey> yay, thanks guys :)
<Laney> yeeps, off by one error
<stgraber> #action stgraber to create the UbuntuOne package set
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to create the UbuntuOne package set
<Laney> which is impressive when you are in gmt
<stgraber> Laney: hey there :)
<stgraber> #topic PerPackageUploader Applications - Natalia Bidart
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  PerPackageUploader Applications - Natalia Bidart
<stgraber> (I guess we'll need to vote on dobey too as it doesn't make much sense to keep him on PPU now that we have the package set)
 * nessita is Natalia Bidart
<stgraber> nessita: can you quickly introduce yourself?
<nessita> sure!
<nessita> hello, I'm natalia, I'm the teach lead of the Ubuntu One desktop+ team. I've been involved with most of the desktop application for Ubuntu One since 2010
 * stgraber notes we probably should convert nessita's PPU request to UbuntuOne packageset + PPU to magicicada 
 * bdrung nods
<dobey> stgraber: indeed
<cody-somerville> nessita, How involved with the actual packaging of the UbuntuOne packages are you?
<nessita> I've been packaging Ubuntu One packages since 2010, I started with the ubuntu-sso-client and then I included to my packaging list most of the rest of the project
<nessita> I'm also familiar with the SRU process, and with all the release schedule
<cody-somerville> nessita, Can you give an example of where you fixed a packaging bug?
<nessita> I'm still have some things to learn regarding packaging in general, but I'm always eager to read the documentation and to learn from reviews and advices
<nessita> cody-somerville, you mean proposing a patch for the package or as a upstream dev?
<stgraber> nessita: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce and read it daily (when doing Ubuntu stuff)?
<cody-somerville> nessita, An example of fixing a bug with the packaging of the software vs. fixing a bug in the upstream software.
<nessita> stgraber, yes, I am
<dobey> cody-somerville: i suppose fixing [needspackaging] bugs counts for that?
 * micahg would think not
<nessita> cody-somerville, so, I have made some packaging fixes with, for example, logilab-common to upload to our Ubuntu One nightlies ppa (I can provide the link to that, let me find it)
<nessita> cody-somerville, and this https://code.launchpad.net/~nataliabidart/ubuntu/precise/ubuntu-sso-client/ubuntu-sso-client-2.99.2 the latest package proposal I submitted with upstream fixes in it
<dobey> nessita: the logilab-common is a code fix, not a packaging fix
<nessita> dobey, I undertood that a packaging fix will be such where a patch is provied to apply to the source :-)
<dobey> nessita: packaging being a bug in debian/rules or copyright, or typo in the description, or dependencies and such in the control file
<cody-somerville> nessita, No. That is different. A packaging fix is changes to the debian packaging files to fix an issue not with the software but with the packaging of it.
<dobey> nessita: the difference between packaging a fix, and fixing the packaging itself :)
<nessita> dobey, cody-somerville, right. I don't think I have done a packaging-only fix
<nessita> most of my branches were for new upstream releases, or patch added to apply to the upstream code
<cody-somerville> nessita, How often do you make changes to files under debian/ ? How familiar are you with those files?
<nessita> I've of course modified debian/ files in those, but I have not submitted a branch with only changes to debian/
<nessita> cody-somerville, I make changes every time I propose a packaging branch, I usually edit the changelog and very often update dependencies in the control file
<bdrung> nessita: are there any plans to get the ubuntuone stack to Debian or to work with Debian developers to get it into Debian?
<dobey> cody-somerville: we have a hard release schedule for ubuntu one this cycle, so at a minimum of every 2 weeks, i would say nessita and i both, make changes under debian/ in the u1 packages.
<nessita> cody-somerville, I'm familiar with the files in debian/, and I usually check the debian documentation when I have a particular doubt, and if needed, I also check with dobey or someone more experienced than me in that regard
<micahg> I think cody-somerville is trying to highlight the difference between being an upstream dev and a distro dev
<nessita> bdrung, well, atm there are no plans to getting Ubuntu One into debian
<bdrung> nessita: are there any reasons, why?
<nessita> bdrung, well, mostly business desicions, but I'm confiming with my manager for specifics. Is worth noting that we help as much as we can to people that wants to contribute doing that (orpackaging to another distro as well)
<bdrung> nessita: the overhead to upload a package to debian and sync it to ubuntu isn't that big.
<dobey> bdrung: configglue is already in debian. i hope to get dirspec in there in the future as well. as for the rest of ubuntuone, it might only be useful for us to have stuff in sid/experimental, but i don't think we are opposed to getting them there.
<cody-somerville> nessita, In what scenario might you need to bump the soname of the libubuntuone package?
<nessita> cody-somerville, I'm not 100% sure (my work mainly involves python packaging, but is a good question), but makes sense doing so when there is an API-ABI breakage
<bdrung> dobey: sid/experimental are the primary upload targets in Debian
<cody-somerville> nessita, Who would you ask if you were unsure?
<nessita> cody-somerville, dobey for sure :-)
<nessita> cody-somerville, he's our packaging master, and a gnome dev
<nessita> he thought me a lot of the things i know about packaging, and he also explains to me some sutil differences between one way or another to do things
<stgraber> any other question for nessita or are we ready to vote (for PPU to magicicada and package set upload for UbuntuOne)? (12 minutes left and we still have dobey and cyphermox on the agenda)
<bdrung> i am ready
<cody-somerville> I'm ready.
<stgraber> #vote nessita for PPU to magicicada and package set upload for UbuntuOne
<meetingology> Please vote on: nessita for PPU to magicicada and package set upload for UbuntuOne
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<cody-somerville> +1 - please take some time to read the Debian Library Packaging guide plus seek assistance from dobey if you intend to touch libubuntuone.
<meetingology> +1 - please take some time to read the Debian Library Packaging guide plus seek assistance from dobey if you intend to touch libubuntuone. received from cody-somerville
<tumbleweed> +1 [ and please feel free to ask for help in #ubuntu-motu / -devel with tricky packaging issues, such as sonames ]
<meetingology> +1 [ and please feel free to ask for help in #ubuntu-motu / -devel with tricky packaging issues, such as sonames ] received from tumbleweed
<stgraber> micahg, Laney: ?
<micahg> +1 same as comment as cody-somerville and tumbleweed
<meetingology> +1 same as comment as cody-somerville and tumbleweed received from micahg
<nessita> ack to all comments, and will do
<Laney> +1 also the release team for freeze guidance
<meetingology> +1 also the release team for freeze guidance received from Laney
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: nessita for PPU to magicicada and package set upload for UbuntuOne
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<tumbleweed> phew, we have an uploader for the packageset
<stgraber> #action stgraber to grant PPU to magicicada to nessita
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to grant PPU to magicicada to nessita
<stgraber> micahg: can you make sure to add nessita when you create the team?
<dobey> Laney: was that comment based on past history re: u1 and freezes?
<micahg> stgraber: yes
<stgraber> micahg: thanks
<nessita> thanks!
<Laney> no not really, just in general
<stgraber> #action micahg to add nessita to the ubuntu one upload team
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to add nessita to the ubuntu one upload team
<stgraber> #topic Upload rights of dobey to the UbuntuOne package set
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Upload rights of dobey to the UbuntuOne package set
<stgraber> == All rights for dobey ==
<stgraber> Archive Upload Rights for dobey: archive 'primary', source package 'icontool'
<stgraber> Archive Upload Rights for dobey: archive 'primary', source package 'ubuntuone-storage-protocol'
<stgraber> Archive Upload Rights for dobey: archive 'primary', source package 'ubuntuone-client'
<stgraber> so I guess the proposal is to drop these two PPU to ubuntuone-storage-protocol and ubuntuone-client, replacing them with package set upload right to UbuntuOne
<stgraber> any question?
<cody-somerville> dobey, Please confirm.
<dobey> yes, that's right
<cody-somerville> Ready to vote.
 * bdrung too.
<stgraber> #vote Give dobey upload rights to the UbuntuOne package set (and remove current overlapping PPU)
<meetingology> Please vote on: Give dobey upload rights to the UbuntuOne package set (and remove current overlapping PPU)
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Laney> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Laney
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<cody-somerville> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cody-somerville
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<stgraber> tumbleweed: ?
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<stgraber> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Give dobey upload rights to the UbuntuOne package set (and remove current overlapping PPU)
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<stgraber> #action stgraber to update dobey's PPU once he's been added to the ubuntuone uploader team
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to update dobey's PPU once he's been added to the ubuntuone uploader team
<stgraber> ok, we're sadly running out of time for the meeting and quite a few members have pre-alpha2 freeze things to do so I doubt we can easily extend the meeting
<stgraber> cyphermox: can you attend our meeting in two weeks for your coredev application? (poke me if you need sponsoring until then)
<micahg> dobey: nessita: I would also encourage you if there's another SONAME bump for libubuntuone to try to shepherd the reverse-deps through the other teams that can upload the packages
<cyphermox> sure, I can attend in two weeks
<cody-somerville> cyphermox, Also, removing your application, please come next meeting with more endorsements! No reason you can't get them. :)
<cody-somerville> err
<cody-somerville> s/removing/regarding/
<cyphermox> stgraber:  ^^ ;)
<micahg> cody-somerville: +1
<stgraber> cyphermox: I know ;) I just mentioned it on the DMB private channel, I'll have one added on your wiki page by our next meeting  ;)
<stgraber> #topic Chair for next meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Chair for next meeting
<stgraber> so who's turn is it?
 * tumbleweed suspects probably me
<stgraber> fine :)
<stgraber> #action tumbleweed to chair the next DMB meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: tumbleweed to chair the next DMB meeting
 * stgraber was trying to find some pattern but couldn't find any obvious one :)
<tumbleweed> there was one, but we broke it
<stgraber> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<micahg> stgraber: alphabetical
<Laney> by nick
<tumbleweed> yeah, time to kick the election off
<Laney> wfmâ¢
<stgraber> micahg: right, that was what I was looking for but couldn't find it ;)
<tumbleweed> Laney: it was origionally by name
<Laney> ah well
<nessita1> micahg: I'm having some nets issues, but I know you said something to me and dobey. Would you please repeat?
<stgraber> micahg: let's say it's alphabetical but by IRC nickname, then we're almost right :)
<tumbleweed> we have two applicants, I'll start the election this evening
<micahg> nessita: I would also encourage you if there's another SONAME bump for libubuntuone to try to shepherd the reverse-deps through the other teams that can upload the packages
<tumbleweed> s/applicants/nominees/
<stgraber> tumbleweed: rocks
<dobey> thanks all!
<nessita1> micahg: ack
<nessita1> thanks everyone
<tumbleweed> ajmitch said something about preparing a platform, haven't heard from porthose
<ajmitch> right, I'm just at work about to go into a quick meeting, will write something after that
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 30 20:05:31 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-30-19.01.moin.txt
<stgraber> almost on time! :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-01-31
<lynxman> o/
<hallyn> \o
<smb> \o
<utlemming> \o
<jamespage> o/
<jamespage> I'm in the chair today
<Daviey> o/
<Daviey> (Note, i will be largely absent this time - is someone else happy to drive the dev review?)
<jamespage> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 31 16:01:30 2012 UTC.  The chair is jamespage. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jamespage> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Daviey> None.
<jamespage> \o/
<jamespage> #topic Precise Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Precise Development
 * jamespage passes the baton to Daviey
<jamespage> (who hopefully is prepared)
<Daviey> 16:00 < Daviey> (Note, i will be largely absent this time - is someone else happy to drive the dev  review?)
<jamespage> lol
<hallyn> Daviey: why don't you hand jamespae the url with the concerning bugs
<hallyn> then i'm sure jamespage will be happy to drive
<Daviey> http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html :)
<jamespage> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> good thinking that man!
<jamespage> So whilst we review this we need to consider that Alpha 2 is due on the 2nd Feb and Beta 1 on the 16th
<jamespage> ticktockticktock
<jamespage> do we really just run through these?
<jamespage> OK so bug 883988
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 883988 in glance (Ubuntu Precise) "db migration failing when upgrading glance - trying to create existing tables" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/883988
<zul> its on the upstream radar
<jamespage> zul: when is a fix expected?
<zul> jamespage: ill bug jaypipes
<jamespage> nice one
<jamespage> bug 893926
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 893926 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu) "Contains traces of UEC" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/893926
<jamespage> Guess that is still in progress
<jamespage> bug 911812
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 911812 in facter (Ubuntu Precise) "processor fact does not handle arm, others" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/911812
<jamespage> not sure if roaksoax is here...
<adam_g> jamespage: i spoke to andres about that friday. i think that is fixed released in a number of recent releases, and should propose to lucid.
<adam_g> not sure what he's found out, though
<jamespage> smoser, bug 913009
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913009 in bacula (Ubuntu) "package bacula-common-mysql (not installed) failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/bacula/libbaccats.la', which is also in package bacula-common 5.2.1-0ubuntu2" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913009
<jamespage> progress?
<smoser> hm..
<smoser> no, no progress.
<jamespage> adam_g: I see bug 916992 is fixed - nice one!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916992 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Database migration v064 fails against MySQL 5.5 + InnoDB" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916992
<jamespage> SpamapS, bug 914392
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 914392 in juju "LXC local provider does not respect 'series' (only installs oneiric)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/914392
<jamespage> any eta from the juju team on when that will be resolved?
<smoser> branch is in merge queue i beleve
<jamespage> great
<SpamapS> jamespage: thats got a fix upstream in a branch, ready for testing
<jamespage> adam_g: bug 922232 - I see that there is a fixed proposed upstream
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922232 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "Volumes fail to attach without discovery using tgt" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922232
<Ursinha> what's the importance of this bug?
<adam_g> jamespage: yeah, didnt realize a QA bot had tagged it failing a unit test, pushed a second rev. last night.
<adam_g> Ursinha: the tgt bug? high, i'd say
<Ursinha> adam_g, may I set it?
<adam_g> Ursinha: sure.
<Ursinha> oh, I can't :)
<adam_g> i thought i did for the ubuntu task
<jamespage> adam_g: you did - thats fine
<jamespage> we can't set the upstream task importance which is fair enough
<Ursinha> that's fine
<Ursinha> so the downstream is in progress
<jamespage> Ok; bug 923681
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923681 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Server install fails when selecting everything but 'VM host' & 'Manual selection' from tasksel" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923681
<jamespage> interesting that the automated testing has not picked that up because it uses tasksel (albeit through preseeds).
<jamespage> bug 875262;
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875262 in php5 (Ubuntu Oneiric) "PHP Startup: Unable to load dynamic library '/usr/lib/php5/20090626+lfs/sqlite.so'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875262
<jamespage> currently assigned to koolhead17
<jamespage> ..
<SpamapS> he's been working on it
<SpamapS> I've been helping him when I can
<jamespage> SpamapS, think that will make alpha-2?
<Daviey> SpamapS: Can you clarify what is holding it up?
<jamespage> OK; lets come back to that if/when
<jamespage> bug 890362
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890362 in nova (Ubuntu) "Should user's shell be /bin/false?" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/890362
<jamespage> adam_g, zul: any thoughts on this one? It would nice to land something for alpha-2
<zul> james: yeah its on my todo list
<jamespage> great
<SpamapS> Sorry I had something here distracting me
<jamespage> np
<jamespage> any feedback?
<SpamapS> Whats holding it up is that koolhead17 is new to packaging, and needs guidance, and is in a very incompatible time zone with me.
<arosales> zul, do you think 890362 will make alpha 2?
<SpamapS> We also need to merge PHP 5.3.9 .. but thats not going to make alpha-2
<jamespage> SpamapS, ack - I think Daviey and I are more compatible timewise...
<zul> arosales: probably i was going to do some work on it this afternoon
<jamespage> so feel free to point him in our direction
<arosales> zul: ok, thanks.
<jamespage> roaksoax has been working on bug 898840
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898840 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "'default' preseed should be enlister" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898840
<SpamapS> jamespage: he's in India
<SpamapS> jamespage: but I think he can work on this stuff only after working hours, which should fall into your TZ
<jamespage> great
<jamespage> I thought you mean't roaksoax for a minute then
<jamespage> I guess bug 898840 won't make alpha-2
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 898840 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "'default' preseed should be enlister" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/898840
<jamespage> I believe bug 904681 is now fixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 904681 in Ubuntu "precise amd64 minimal-virtual install is oversized" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/904681
<jamespage> test when green today in jenkins
<jamespage> https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Precise%20ISO%20Testing%20Dashboard/view/Daily/job/precise-server-amd64_minimal-virtual/79/
<hallyn> that'd be grrreat
<jamespage> wonders what we actually did to fix it....
<jamespage> bug 906654 is not currently milestone targetted
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 906654 in nova (Ubuntu) "nova should depend on openstackx and load appropriate osapi_extensions by default" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/906654
<adam_g> jamespage: i think that will eventually be marked invalid, the openstackx library is to be deprecated and removed from openstack entirely this cycle
<jamespage> adam_g, zul - any thoughts on this and when/if it might happen
<jamespage> adam_g: good
<jamespage> pls can you comment to that effect.
<zul> jamespage: i think openstackx i sbeing dropped so i need to doubleechk
<adam_g> jamespage: happening soon if not already
<jamespage> adam_g, zul: same with bug 907197
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907197 in nova (Ubuntu) "ip address can't be injected into the instance when using lxc " [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907197
<zul> jamespage: still havent reproduced it
<jamespage> zul: ack
<jamespage> rbasak, around? care to update on bug 879666
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 879666 in nova (Ubuntu Precise) "chown error for console.fifo when launching vm" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/879666
<rbasak> I will update the patch for oneiric-updates
<rbasak> but the patch isn't present in precise atm
<rbasak> so can't complete the SRU justification
<rbasak> Was speaking to Daviey about this earlier
<rbasak> I think he wants the patch taken into precise too
<jamespage> OK
<Daviey> zul: Please re-introduce that patch to precise.
<zul> ack
<jamespage> lynxman was working on bug 916489
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 916489 in ipxe (Ubuntu) "grub-ipxe says "B: command not found"" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/916489
<jamespage> which needs a new upstream release of ipxe
<jamespage> but I know he's short on time for this now
<lynxman> jamespage: unfortunately my management requires my attention elsewhere, new release is almost ready
<jamespage> Daviey: still key that makes alpha-2?
<lynxman> jamespage: I reckon tops weekend will be here
<Daviey> jamespage: no, it can wait
<Daviey> I thought we were just waiting on the version string resolution?
<jamespage> bug 833499
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 833499 in OpenStack Compute (nova) "virt/disk.py unconditionally inserts public_keys into /root/.ssh/authorized_keys" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/833499
<jamespage> looks like we have a workaround for the moment
<jamespage> zul, smoser: is that getting any upstream focus in esses?
<smoser> probably not.
<zul> still on my neverending todo list
<jamespage> zul: is bug 901881 there as well?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 901881 in glance (Ubuntu) "nova should depend on python-keystone" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/901881
<zul> jamespage: keystone is in transition right now so that is in limbo kind of
<jamespage> right - I understand
<jamespage> so not in the short term then
<zul> no...
<jamespage> rbasak, hows OpenMPI looking (bug 889644)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 889644 in openmpi (Ubuntu) "Please update OpenMPI to the 1.5 upstream version" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/889644
<rbasak> it's built in a ppa now
<rbasak> next step is to try building its dependencies against it
<rbasak> debian armel ftbfs, but ubuntu is ok
<Daviey> neat
<jamespage> rbasak, likely to land for beta-1?
<Daviey> rbasak: Depends on the testing of rdepends, rebuild right?
<rbasak> yep
<rbasak> if it works then we can get it in the archive straight away
<rbasak> Holdups will depend on any bugs
<jamespage> OK bug 907206
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 907206 in keystone (Ubuntu) "SPACES missed in /usr/share/man/man8/keystone.8.gz" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/907206
<jamespage> nearly there how
<zul> will be uploaded friday
<jamespage> zul: sweet
<jamespage> bug 887186 and bug 891977 for roaksoax; hopefully he's on those
<Daviey> I merged that a few days ago
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887186 in orchestra (Ubuntu) "squid proxy big and small buckets not functioning correctly" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887186
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 891977 in cobbler (Ubuntu) "cobbler-web package still contain traces of Ubuntu branding" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/891977
<jamespage> adam_g: bug 923817
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923817 in nova (Ubuntu) "nova-network fails due to absence of policy.json" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923817
<adam_g> jamespage: fix proposed, waiting on a +1 our openstack packaging
<jamespage> readhy for review I see - friday zul?
<zul> yeah
<jamespage> nice
<jamespage> So I won;t go through the other teams list; but we probably what to add the MIR's for juju to the list for tracking in precise
<jamespage> #action jamespage to get juju MIR's added to server precise release tracking
<meetingology> ACTION: jamespage to get juju MIR's added to server precise release tracking
<jamespage> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jamespage> rbasak, Daviey and I at FOSDEM this weekend
<Daviey> Right!
<jamespage> \o/
<jamespage> any other events?
<jamespage> nope
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<jamespage> hggdh: around?
<hggdh> yep
<SpamapS> WAIT
<SpamapS> events
 * jamespage rewinds the tape
<SpamapS> https://juju.ubuntu.com/Events
<jamespage> #link https://juju.ubuntu.com/Events
<SpamapS> Tomorrow, Mark Mims and David Medberry will be at MongoDB Boulder to talk about juju
<SpamapS> And at the end of the month, juju will be at Strata
<SpamapS> that is all
<jamespage> ta
<jamespage> hggdh?
<hggdh> Alpha is in, folks. As much test as possible will be appreciated. We are looking good, though, so far :-)
<hggdh> and this is it, right now
<hggdh> ..
<jamespage> I noted that the ISO testing dashboard was looking sweet for server :-)
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Random list of things I was involved at least as part of the problem, not
<smb> necessarily, yet, part of the solution:
<smb> * bug 923685
<smb> * bug 922754
<hggdh> yes... isn't life good?
<smb> * bug 824089 and bug 913760
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923685 in resolvconf (Ubuntu) "New resolver package overwrites manually created resolv.conf on server" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923685
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922754 in upstart (Ubuntu) "booting without --no-log causes init and plymouth-upstart-bridge to spin at 100%" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922754
<smb> * bug 922137
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 824089 in linux (Ubuntu) "Xen blkfront i/o errors prevent boot in domU" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/824089
<smb> * bug 922486
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913760 in linux (Ubuntu) "Precise as xen domU pv have critical disk error on boot" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913760
<smb> * bug 921816
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922137 in xen-common (Ubuntu) "xm new depends on python-lxml" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922137
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922486 in libvirt (Ubuntu) "libvirt boot race on xen hypervisor" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922486
<smb> Over to smoser for more... ;)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 921816 in linux (Ubuntu) "BUG: unable to handle kernel NULL pointer dereference at 00000030" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/921816
<Daviey> jamespage: (MIR bugs added.)
<jamespage> Daviey: ta
<smb> ..
<smoser> i dont have anything specific for smb at the moment.
<Daviey> bug 922754 is one for jodh i think
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922754 in upstart (Ubuntu) "booting without --no-log causes init and plymouth-upstart-bridge to spin at 100%" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922754
<smb> Daviey, He is on it
<jamespage> I'm sure he will love that :-)
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<jamespage> how is arm server looking rbasak
<Daviey> I thought it was fixed now TBH
<roaksoax> smb where u abl
<rbasak> The kernel is fixed now
<jamespage> \o/
<rbasak> juju is working in a local environment too!
<jamespage> (I can re-install again!)
<SpamapS> /o/
<rbasak> I'm not sure that the installer is carrying the latest kernel
<smb> roaksoax, abl 2 do what? :)
<rbasak> But you can use the latest kernel image and the installer will work
<Daviey> rocking!
<jamespage> any questions for robbiew?
<robbiew> hey
<jamespage> sorry that should be rbasak
<jamespage> doh!
<robbiew> lol
<roaksoax> smb where able to resolvr yhe orchestra/squid issue u were having?
<jamespage> nope - great
<jamespage> #topic Open Discussion and Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion and Community
<SpamapS> Wait, "and Community" ?
<jamespage> Anyone got anything they would like to discuss?
<SpamapS> did we miss the point of removing the "Community" section?
<robbiew> FeatureFreeze is Feb16th :)
<SpamapS> *the entire meeting is about the community*
<robbiew> justsayn
<smb> roaksoax, currently running mostly without proxy enabled. as I try to use apt-cacher-ng as proxy which seems to be flakey with precise. but the complete strange fails seem to have disappeared
<robbiew> SpamapS: I expect we'll need an FFS for juju stuff
<robbiew> ...and maas <- Daviey
<Daviey> robbiew: I have lots of FFF's
<jamespage> SpamapS, you are quite correct
<Daviey> FFS*
<robbiew> \o/
<roaksoax> smb ok ;) then it was cache issue or even archive
<jamespage> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<SpamapS> jamespage: ty.. lets fix the agenda for the next meeting too
<jamespage> SpamapS, agreed - will do that when I write the minutes
 * jamespage pokes Daviey
<Daviey> right!
<SpamapS> I promise I'll do an extra 2 or 3 turns as moderator once daylight savings time returns
<jamespage> lol
<jamespage> so if thats all folks...
<jamespage> #Announce next meeting date and time
<jamespage> 1600UTC on 7th Feb
<jamespage> until next week
<jamespage> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 31 16:56:52 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-31-16.01.moin.txt
<SpamapS> jamespage: thanks!
<Ursinha> thanks jamespage
<arosales> thanks jamespage
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<apw> o/
<sforshee> o/
<cking> o/
<tgardner> o/
<bjf> o/
<herton> o/
<arges> o/
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 31 17:00:13 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Precise
<smb> \o
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<ppisati> o/
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> P/omap4: a new kernel version (1405.7) was released, with improved PM support and fixes for the usb subsystem (CMA revert).
<ppisati> P/master: problems with mmc were due to twl4030's GPIO lines being inactive at boot time since support was factored out in a kernel module; recompiling it in the main kernel made omap3 boards boot off the mmc again (12.20).
<ppisati> SRU: new kernels were released for every supported arch/release.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/canonical-kernel-distro-team-precise-alpha-2.html
<ogasawara> I've pushed out any open work items from Alpha-2 to Beta-1.
<ogasawara> Additionally, some work items have come to my attention but I'm unaware
<ogasawara> of anyone from our team actually working on them:
<ogasawara> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-p-ceph
<ogasawara> [canonical-kernel-team] investigate large xattr support patch from Ted T'so in ext4: TODO
<ogasawara> [canonical-kernel-team] potentially help push large xattr support to ext4: TODO
<ogasawara> Did anyone attend that session at UDS and commit us to those work items?
<ogasawara> I suspect these may just get postponed.
<apw> those were for the cluster filesystem thing
<apw> for use in openstack iirc
<apw> ..
<ogasawara> k, i'll follow up and see if I can find out more.
<ogasawara> Also, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-arm-p-optional-initrd
<ogasawara> [canonical-kernel-team] provide a kernel with uuid support in the internal initrd for measuring
<ogasawara> I vaguely recall there were discussions regarding this work item at the
<ogasawara> rally, but I'm unaware of what the outcome was?
<tgardner> oagdunno where that one is. I think ogra was gonna do some testing
<tgardner> ogasawara, ^
<ogasawara> ack
<ogasawara> ..
<tgardner> punted...
<ogra_> tgardner, well, the foundations WIs were all postponed/blocked yesterday
<ogasawara> ogra_: blocked on the above work item?
<ogra_> i can indeed do a test of with/without initrd, but that wont tell anything about with/with minimal initrd in kernel
<ogra_> ogasawara, yes
<ogra_> but i cant speak for slangasek :)
<tgardner> ogra_, but don't we have an option to generate a minimal initrd now ?
<ogra_> he set his items to blocked
<ogra_> wrt my item i can easily provide you with data tomorrow if that helps anyone
<tgardner> ogra_, I think those would be interesting numbers.
<ogra_> tgardner, i dont think so ... when i said minimal i meant the in-kernel initrd just containing teh blkid command as we had discussed
<ogra_> though i think slangasek would even like to see that done in-kernel with a patch (which i think you already said is to intrusive)
<apw> ogra_, probabally we should discuss a plan for this feature offline, we are clearly confused on who is doing what when in which order
<ogra_> apw, k
<slangasek> tgardner: FSVO "minimal" that always includes udev and sundry other utilities
<ogra_> slangasek, not necessarily, thats why we have devtmpfs, no ?
<tgardner> slangasek, I guess I was referring to the "tailored" initrd so taht we could see if there was _any_ time differences
<slangasek> there is no support for generating any genuinely minimal initramfs out of initramfs-tools
<ogra_> right, it will always be bloated and at least contain both libc's
<tgardner> ..
<apw> we'll discuss it offline ..
<jsalisbury> Everyone OK with moving on?
<ogra_> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Blueprint: hardware-p-kernel-power-management (cking)
<cking> nothing to report this week
<cking> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Precise Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Last week we rebased to v3.2.2 and uploaded.  There is a potential
<ogasawara> regression in v3.2.2 that I'm concerned about, bug 923512.  jsalisbury
<ogasawara> is working with the bug reporters and has a test kernel with the
<ogasawara> offending patch reverted.  If anyone else has hw which uses the ath9k
<ogasawara> driver, it would be nice if you could test.  I'd consider this would
<ogasawara> warrent an upload to fix before the milestone which is in 2 days, Thurs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923512 in linux (Ubuntu) "ath9k wireless stopped working after kernel upgrade to 3.2.0-12" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923512
<ogasawara> Feb 2.  This means we'd likely have to upload by end of day today.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw>  
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw>  
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw>  
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      || Defd ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||      ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||   20 (+3) ||    8 ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||   14 (+2) ||    5 ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||   14 (+3) ||    5 ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||   13 (+3) ||    5 ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||   10 (+1) ||    5 ||
<apw> || linux Precise                            ||    7      ||    5 ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||   14 (+2) ||    5 ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||   14 (+3) ||    4 ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    0 (-9) ||    0 ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||   10 (+1) ||    4 ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||   15 (+3) ||    4 ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||   12 (+5) ||    4 ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    7 (+1) ||    4 ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Precise                   ||    5      ||    4 ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||   14 (+3) ||    5 ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||   13 (+3) ||    5 ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-oneiric Lucid         ||   10 (+1) ||    5 ||
<apw>  
<apw> Note that the table has a new column this week, the "Defd" column
<apw> represents the number of CVEs which have been referred back to security for
<apw> resoution, either for lack of a fix or if the fix is not clearly complete.
<apw>  
<apw> Nine new CVEs were added this week, of which about 6 have been resolved.
<apw> We have also finally dropped lucid/mvl-dove from the table above.
<apw>  
<apw> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Oneiric/Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton)
<bjf> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (Jan. 24):
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Hardy - 2.6.24-30.98
<bjf>   * Nothing new this cycle.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Lucid - 2.6.32-38.85
<bjf>   * Proposed is frozen due to 10.04.4 prep.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Maverick - 2.6.35-32.65
<bjf>   * Verification testing.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Natty - 2.6.38-13.55
<bjf>   * Verification testing.
<bjf>  
<bjf>  * Oneiric - 3.0.0-16.27
<bjf>   * Verification testing.
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf> Future stable cadence cycles:
<bjf>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseInterlock
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> OK, Thanks everyone
<apw> jsalisbury, thanks
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 31 17:16:26 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-01-31-17.00.moin.txt
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-02-01
<harris> hello
<harris> i am trying to make bootable linux  usb
<ubudog> Hi harris, a better place to ask would be the #ubuntu channel, as this is a meeting channel.
<harris> nobody is on number ubuntu
<ubudog> There are a few people there helping, including myself.  Just ask.  :)
<elky> harris, you need to join the channel first.
<elky> typing "/join #ubuntu" (but with no quote marks) should do it for most irc clients.
<Artificial_Intel> 12 min. left
<Artificial_Intel> lets see how many shows up.
<cariboo907> I'm here
 * coffeecat is here
<bodhizazen> Anyone here for the Ubuntu Forums Council Meeting ?
<Artificial_Intel> o/
 * coffeecat is here
<bodhizazen> 'lo AI =)
 * cariboo907 is here
<bodhizazen> coffeecat,
 * Iowan is un-absent for a change
<bodhizazen> 3 min or so, I thought s-fox could make the meeting
<bodhizazen> Agenda : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<bodhizazen> OK, sorry was distracted here for a minute
<bodhizazen> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb  1 06:03:53 2012 UTC.  The chair is bodhizazen. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bodhizazen> Again, who is here for the meeting =)
<bodhizazen> o/
<Artificial_Intel> o/
<coffeecat> o/
<Iowan> o/
<cariboo907> o/
<moergaes> MÃ¶rgÃ¦s o/
<nothingspecial> o/
<bodhizazen> I would like to go a bit out of order w/ the agenda
<bodhizazen> First, thank you all around
<bodhizazen> Thanks to the FC members who servered in the past, and thank you to the New FC members
<bodhizazen> And thank you to the mod staff =)
<bodhizazen> Is ripfox here ?
<bodhizazen> [topic]Reverse Ripfox Ban
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Reverse Ripfox Ban
<bodhizazen> Anyone here want to discuss Ripfox ?
<Artificial_Intel> is he aware of this meeting today?
<bodhizazen> Probably not
<bodhizazen> I would say we can give Ripfox the benefit of the doubt here, and reverse the ban
<bodhizazen> But it is probably a little too late
<Iowan> What caused it?
<Artificial_Intel> next time in such situation we need to send an e-mail to the person(s).
 * bodhizazen looks
<cariboo907> I just checked Ripfox's history in the RC, he seems to have had problems with moderation since 2008
<bodhizazen> Ripfox  - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?threadid=1881936
<bodhizazen> Here is the thread in the RC - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1877662
<coffeecat> There were a number of strange RC threads in 2008 and then nothing until the Unity trolling business in 2011
<Artificial_Intel> We can give him a second chance.
<Iowan> I'd opt for "converting" the 15 pointer to 5
<cariboo907> +1 for a second chance
<bodhizazen> Well, the unity issue came up at sort of a bad time - I think most of the staff was sort of sick of it already
<bodhizazen> [VOTE] Ripfox a second chance
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ripfox a second chance
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bodhizazen> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bodhizazen
<coffeecat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from coffeecat
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<cariboo907> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cariboo907
<Iowan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Iowan
<moergaes> 0
<meetingology> 0 received from moergaes
<bodhizazen> [ENDVOTE] Ripfox a second chance
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ripfox a second chance
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bodhizazen> OK aynone willing to PM / email Ripfox ?
<Iowan> I will...
<bodhizazen> Thanks, I reversed the infraction
<bodhizazen> [ACTION] Ban revered on Ripfox, Iowan to send PM / E-mail
<meetingology> ACTION: Ban revered on Ripfox, Iowan to send PM / E-mail
<bodhizazen> [TOPIC]Buffalo Soldier Sub-forum request
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Buffalo Soldier Sub-forum request
<bodhizazen> [LINK]http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1891534
<bodhizazen> Buffalo Soldier or s-fox ?
<bodhizazen> I would say +1 if Buffalo makes contact with Canonical first, but I am not sure how far along the process is
<moergaes> How was it about having a general sub-forum for preinstalled Buntu?
<moergaes> I mean, there could be many requests from small companies for a similar forum.
 * cariboo907 +1, but I'd like to see him go through Canonical
<bodhizazen> Exactly
<Artificial_Intel> or forums with with subs for each companies, like we have loco forums. Then we avoid mess
<bodhizazen> I like the idea of promoting pre-installed Ubuntu / Linux, but I am uncomfortable with promoting this vs that product
<bodhizazen> If we promote a product, IMO, it should be in conjunction with Canonical
<Artificial_Intel> aye
<coffeecat> agreed
<cariboo907> As far as I'm concerned we (the forum) shouldn't play favourites
<Iowan> I presume it was Canonical who established the current manufacturer sub forums
<bodhizazen> [VOTE]Ask Buffalo soldier to contact Canonical and get back to us
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ask Buffalo soldier to contact Canonical and get back to us
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
 * cariboo907 agrees
<bodhizazen> Yes Iowan
<bodhizazen> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bodhizazen
<cariboo907> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cariboo907
<coffeecat> +1
<moergaes> 1
<meetingology> +1 received from coffeecat
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<Iowan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Iowan
<moergaes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from moergaes
<bodhizazen> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ask Buffalo soldier to contact Canonical and get back to us
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bodhizazen> Anyone willing to contact Buffalo soldier ?
<moergaes> I can do it.
 * cariboo907 will
<bodhizazen> [ACTION]Ask buffalo soldier to contact canonical and get back to us
<meetingology> ACTION: Ask buffalo soldier to contact canonical and get back to us
<bodhizazen> I think cariboo907 would be best =)
<bodhizazen> [TOPIC] CC meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: CC meeting
<bodhizazen> It would be ideal if at least one FC could attend CC meetings =)
<bodhizazen> They are at odd times (last I looked) an it will be difficult for me to attend
<bodhizazen> We could rotate (see last item on agenda)
<cariboo907> I haven't looked to see what time the meetings are at, so I can't say
 * cariboo907 checked, I can probably make it
<bodhizazen> Along those lines, would be nice to see FC and staff promote ubuntu within other community venues - LP, wiki, IRC, ask ubuntu, and there is a community channel ??
<Iowan> I'd be happy to attend, if time/date/memory all cooperate.
<Artificial_Intel> last time I checked, their meetings are around 2-3 o'clock  in the morning for me, so I'll have difficulties to attend.
<bodhizazen> Any more comments on CC meetings ?
<cariboo907> the meetings are on the 1st and 3rd thursday at 17:00 UTC
<bodhizazen> Exactly AI , the CC meets at inconvenient to all sorts of times
<bodhizazen> I am going to skip to ZaReason sub forums
<bodhizazen> [TOPIC]	
<bodhizazen> ZaReason Sub-Forum Idea
* Topic unset by meetingology on #ubuntu-meeting
<bodhizazen> Probably same as with Buffalo soldiger
<Artificial_Intel> aye
<bodhizazen> Have we had any "official" contact from Zareason or Canonical ?
<Artificial_Intel> no news on that front?
<cariboo907> +1 to that
<coffeecat> Didn't ZaReason already contact Canonical?
<bodhizazen> [ACTION]s-fox to follow up on Zareason =)
<meetingology> ACTION: s-fox to follow up on Zareason =)
<bodhizazen> [TOPIC]Community building ideas
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Community building ideas
<bodhizazen> I would like to see more positive / support / social interactions with staff and community , and not all fighting with trolls and spam-ban
<cariboo907> I was approched by effenberg0x0 about creating a bit of a community around the ubuntu +1 sub-forum
<bodhizazen> Any ideas on how to promote community spirit of forums ?
<bodhizazen> That would be great cariboo907
<bodhizazen> I have been working on the ask ubuntu community
<Artificial_Intel> interact in lighthearted topics in cafÃ©, not only in the one that can explode any time soon.
<cariboo907> effenberg0x0 and I are conducting a classroom session at UDW so i'll discuss it with him further
<bodhizazen> ask ubuntu often refers conversations from ask ubuntu -> ubuntu fourms , I have make them aware we do not appreciate some of the topics though =)
<bodhizazen> Also, staff in general should be aware of #ubuntu-community-team
<cariboo907> unfortunately I have to leave for work, so I'll say good day to all
<bodhizazen> It is sort of a gathering IRC channel for various people in various leadership positions across the community
<Artificial_Intel> any exampel of this?
<bodhizazen> example of what Artificial_Intel ?
<Artificial_Intel> "ask ubuntu often refers conversations from ask ubuntu -> ubuntu fourms , I have make them aware we do not appreciate some of the topics though"
<bodhizazen> I would have to dig some up ..
 * bodhizazen looks
<bodhizazen> http://askubuntu.com/questions/100407/how-to-improve-the-launcher-and-the-menus-usability
<bodhizazen> See comments
<coffeecat> "I don't know where the right place for Unity feedback is, but this isn't it." Sounds familiar!
<Artificial_Intel> An Unity sub forum?
<bodhizazen> http://askubuntu.com/questions/100288/things-to-do-on-ubuntu-to-get-experienced
<bodhizazen> "This sort of discussion is a better fit for the Ubuntu Forums. â Jorge Castro 10 hours ago "
<bodhizazen> That sort of thing Artificial_Intel and coffeecat
<bodhizazen> just FYI
<Artificial_Intel> yea, there's no need to send the garbage to UF
<bodhizazen> If I see a referral of a conversation that is more obviously trolling I object =)
<bodhizazen> Yea, for now monitor it, there is some cross posting between ask ubuntu and the forums, support as well as conversation
<coffeecat> Community spirit. How about involving the Ubuntu members (through forum contributions)?
<bodhizazen> It is not as if we notice the referrals from ask ubuntu , the cafe is busy enough that IMO it is not a problem
<bodhizazen> +1 coffeecat
<bodhizazen> I would like to suggest adding 1-2 staff 1 month prior to a release
<bodhizazen> and ask less active ones to step down, sort of keeps the staff and community working together and lessens burn out
<Iowan> Criteria?
<bodhizazen> Any other community building suggestions ?
<bodhizazen> Criteria - Ubuntu fourms members + positive contributions
<bkerensa> :)
<bodhizazen> do not have criteria for stepping down ...
<bodhizazen> Any other comments on community building ?
<bodhizazen> I just wanted you all to keep in mind , we are community leaders, and we should make an effort to grow the community, recognize the positive contributions of othes , and work with the other community leaders
<bodhizazen> A common comment on many teams in the community is isolation =)
<Artificial_Intel> Can't we put this topic up in Staff chit chat.
<bodhizazen> I did not necessarily think we would have a "solution" to this "problem" and I wish s-fox were here ;P
<coffeecat> I'm still mulling over Ubuntu members.
<bodhizazen> go for it Artificial_Intel
<coffeecat> Don't have a conc rete suggestion.
<bodhizazen> [TOPIC]Division of Labor
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Division of Labor
<bodhizazen> It is sad to say, the FC has grown inactive in the last few months for a variety of reasons.
<bodhizazen> I was wondering if it might be helpful to divide the tasks and "assign" certain tasks to certain members
<bodhizazen> We could rotate tasks or not
<Artificial_Intel> seems like a goode idea to try it out
<bodhizazen> I posted an initial "to do" list here : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1912368
<Iowan> A to-do list would be helpful
<bodhizazen> was hoping for any other suggestions I might have missed
<Iowan> <out-typed!
<bodhizazen> We can then assign FC - these two, Ubuntu membership - those two, etc
<bodhizazen> I did not want to start assigning the tasks just yet, but suggest we start this month ?
<bodhizazen> One person can approve mailings to the FC mailing list, etc
<bodhizazen> We can touch base on assigning tasks in chit chat ?
<Iowan> Which tasks are in deepest need - or are most?
<s-fox> Hello
<bodhizazen> How about if everyone selects something to do this month =)
<coffeecat> Yes
<bodhizazen> Deepest need - we need to , IMO
<bodhizazen> 1. assess staff needs
<Artificial_Intel> I don't mind having RC. I interact with people on professional level daily.
<bodhizazen> 2. start up on the monthly team report
<bodhizazen> do you all know what that is ?
<s-fox> I can do #2
<bodhizazen> OK
<Iowan> i just reviewed it...
<bodhizazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports
<bodhizazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/December2011
<bodhizazen> We also need to get ubuntu forms members going pronto
<bodhizazen> Encourage applications
<bodhizazen> approve applications
<coffeecat> I would like to volunteer for UBuntu members processes
<bodhizazen> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=404
<bodhizazen> OK coffeecat
<bodhizazen> How about if you review the pending applications
<Iowan> I'd like to help with FC mailing list.
<bodhizazen> post in chit chat,
<bodhizazen> Ones to approve
<bodhizazen> Ones to decline
<coffeecat> Yes - I;ve been thinking about related matters too.
<bodhizazen> and ones you need help with
<s-fox> We have a backlog to process. +1 on getting on top of it
<bodhizazen> The only one I think we need to discuss is wolfen69
<bodhizazen> Keep in mind, eventually , if not now, all future staff have to be members
<Iowan> Have we added a participation (calendar) reuiement?
<bodhizazen> Encourage all your friends and people with helpful posts you see to apply
<bodhizazen> We should ask the entire staff to invite
<bodhizazen> How about if FC members post what tasks they will take this month here : http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1912368
<bodhizazen> Then start a discussion thread on your topic / issue in scc
<bodhizazen> [TOPIC]wolfen69 for membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: wolfen69 for membership
<bodhizazen> Any suggestions re: wolfen69 ?
<bodhizazen> Anyone want to vote on wolfen69 ?
<s-fox> I have no problem with it. People make mistakes, people can change.
<moergaes> I have already posted my reservations, so I'll not repeat them here...
<bodhizazen> I will acknowledge his posting style can be edgy, but it does not bother me
<bodhizazen> moergaes, please summarize them =)
<moergaes> One second, let me search...
<bodhizazen> I would not ask if I did not want input
<s-fox> It is no worse than HTL bodhizazen
<bodhizazen> HTL ?
<bodhizazen> I honestly think wolfen69 has "community support"
<moergaes> Here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11556560&postcount=29
<Iowan> No infractions/warnings since april '09
<bodhizazen> I would say approve him, but let him know we expect that he be mindful of his posting style as he now represents the community
<s-fox> Sorry, i was thinking of the old username. Now flies by Bachstelze
<coffeecat> bodhizazen, I think we ought to have a formal vote/discussion on each applicant in http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=406 As quickly as possible, obviously.
<s-fox>  /s/flies/goes
<bodhizazen> OIC, +1 to that s-fox, the problem with HTL was that he as also staff
<bodhizazen> Want to run through it now ?
<s-fox> "Problem" - haha
<bodhizazen> Or post in chit-chat coffeecat
<coffeecat> OK - that would be easier for everyone.
<bodhizazen> well s-fox there was more then once it spilled into staff =(
<bodhizazen> which coffeecat ?
<coffeecat> POst in chit chat. :)
<bodhizazen> you tell us and we will go with it
<s-fox> Yes, that is true
<coffeecat> I'll start a thread in SCC.
<bodhizazen> [ACTION] coffeecat will review UF applicants and post in chit chat
<meetingology> ACTION: coffeecat will review UF applicants and post in chit chat
<bodhizazen> I would like to see a decision on a few tonight
<bodhizazen> [VOTE] haqking for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: haqking for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Iowan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Iowan
<bodhizazen> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bodhizazen
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<moergaes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from moergaes
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<coffeecat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from coffeecat
<bodhizazen> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: haqking for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bodhizazen> [VOTE] Old_Gray_Wolf for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Old_Gray_Wolf for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bodhizazen> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bodhizazen
<coffeecat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from coffeecat
<nothingspecial> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nothingspecial
<moergaes> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from moergaes
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<Iowan> 0
<meetingology> 0 received from Iowan
<bodhizazen> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Old_Gray_Wolf for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:6 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<moergaes> (Sorry, do I have the right to vote here?)
<bodhizazen> [VOTE] rafa.genupula for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: rafa.genupula for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bodhizazen> moergaes, we normally ask FC members only to vote
<s-fox> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from s-fox
<coffeecat> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from coffeecat
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<bodhizazen> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bodhizazen
<bodhizazen> Any other votes ?
 * Iowan looking
<bodhizazen> I only have one more candidate
<Iowan> 0
<meetingology> 0 received from Iowan
<bodhizazen> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: rafa.genupula for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:3
<meetingology> Motion carried
<s-fox> Really?
<bodhizazen> [VOTE] wolfen69 for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: wolfen69 for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<Artificial_Intel> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Artificial_Intel
<bodhizazen> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bodhizazen
<coffeecat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from coffeecat
<Iowan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Iowan
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<bodhizazen> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: wolfen69 for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bodhizazen> [VOTE] Dangertux for membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Dangertux for membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bodhizazen> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bodhizazen
<Iowan> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Iowan
<s-fox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from s-fox
<coffeecat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from coffeecat
<Artificial_Intel> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Artificial_Intel
<bodhizazen> [ENDVOTE]
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Dangertux for membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<bodhizazen> Anyone want to vote on the other 2 ?
<bodhizazen> I do not know them well enough
<coffeecat> Suggest we have a discussion/vote for them in the staff area.
<s-fox> Who are they? I am on a 3G connection... Slow haha
<bodhizazen> Joseph Mills and lechien73
<bodhizazen> +1 coffeecat
<s-fox> I don't know either of them
<coffeecat> I'll kick that off.
<bodhizazen> [TOPIC]Open discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open discussion
<bodhizazen> We are at an hour or so now, any input from the staff or other community members ?
<bodhizazen> What can the FC do for you ? do better ?
<moergaes> Regarding membership:
<Artificial_Intel> Got something.....Who unsubscribed me from FC mailing list?
<bodhizazen> s-fox, we reversed the ban on ripfox
<Iowan> PM sent...
<s-fox> Thank you bodhizazen .
<bodhizazen> Artificial_Intel, Must have been me ? Although I do not recall doing so
<bodhizazen> Post to the ML
<s-fox> It felt "wrong" :)
<bodhizazen> s-fox can you manage the ML this month ?
<bodhizazen> moergaes, sure, go for it, speak up
<Artificial_Intel> I got an e-mail some days ago that I was unsub.
<s-fox> I recall seeing something about It Artificial_Intel
<moergaes> We discussed earlier if there should be an official one year limit for membership applicants.
<s-fox> I can look after the ml, sure
<moergaes> Is there any decision on that?
<bodhizazen> I think the community standard is 1 year, and people then can auto-renew themselves ?
<Iowan> Was that a 1-year participation requirement???
<s-fox> Artificial_Intel I will see about adding you back :-)
<bodhizazen> I do not have to do much of anything to maintain my Ubuntu Membership
<coffeecat> moergaes: that was something I would like to look at. If everyone is happy I'll start a debate in SCC with other membership matters,
<bodhizazen> +1 coffeecat
<s-fox> +1 bodhizazen
<bodhizazen> I think the key working is "significant contributions"
<bodhizazen> rather then a strict time of participation
<bodhizazen> I would say 6 month minimum
<bodhizazen> in terms of forums account activation
<coffeecat> +1 perhaps longer
<Iowan> Documented somewhere?
<s-fox> Are we in danger of not recognising contribution outside of the forum?
<Iowan> There are other membership teams for that as well.
<s-fox> Not enough outside to warrant membership by normal means, but activities of note regardless
<bodhizazen> s-fox, well that is why we ask them to make a wiki page
<s-fox> Okay
<bodhizazen> we should review their contributions, but applicants should be responsible for bringing it to our attention via wiki
<bodhizazen> Oh, I almost forgot ...
<bodhizazen> How do you all want to manage / elect / appoint the FC chairperson ?
<bodhizazen> [TOPIC] Identify FC chairperson
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Identify FC chairperson
<bodhizazen> have FC members vote ? staff vote ?
<s-fox> I thought the idea was the FC elect chair ;)
<bodhizazen> That was what was discussed previously, but I do not think we have had an official FC chairperson for quiet some time
<bodhizazen> so I though it best to put it up for discussion
<s-fox> Well, you know what I think bodhizazen
<Iowan> I know who has been doing the job...
<bodhizazen> We should set up some sort of election , suggestions on how to do so ?
<s-fox> In terms of seniority, only 1 choice exists. bodhizazen
<bodhizazen> vote somewhere ?
<s-fox> We number 7 on the fc. Do we strictly need a chair?
<bodhizazen> I do not think the position should be based on seniority, it should be an elected position
<bodhizazen> s-fox, I have not looked in a while, but my understanding was that the CC wanted a chair
<bodhizazen> We could post to the CC asking if we need a chairperson
<bodhizazen> I would be fine without appointing one
<bodhizazen> s/appointing/electing, lol
<s-fox> Okay, only difference is chair gets  casting vote uncase of ties
<s-fox> Incase
<bodhizazen> Aye, might happen on say IRC meetings I suppose
<s-fox> s-fox for chair +1 :D
<bodhizazen> Do you all want to discuss this on the mailing list ?
<Artificial_Intel> aye
<Iowan> +1 discuss
<bodhizazen> We are close to 90 minutes for this meeting
<s-fox> Don't object
<coffeecat> +1 discuss
<bodhizazen> OK , who will post to the mailing list ?
<bodhizazen> I suppose that is s-fox as you agreed to manage ML this month =)
<bodhizazen> Anything else before we end the meeting ?
<s-fox> Is their anyone who doesnt want to be chair?
<s-fox> I said i'd do the ml this month
<bodhizazen> Does this time work for FC meetings ?
<bodhizazen> Or rotate ?
<bodhizazen> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb  1 07:29:31 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-01-06.03.moin.txt
<Iowan> Prefer rotate
<Iowan> My alarm clock goes off in 3.5 hours
<bodhizazen> OK, thanks everyone
<bodhizazen> Get some sleep Iowan
<s-fox> I could do this time, but prefer to rotate. My health was the reason I was late. Apologies
<Iowan> g'nite!
<bodhizazen> s-fox was there an alternate time from the poll you posted ?
<s-fox> I can't recall. I will find out and put on ml
<s-fox> Are we done?
<bodhizazen> yes s-fox
<bodhizazen> hope you are feeling better
<s-fox> I got 3 hours sleep today :)
<s-fox> Anyway. Speak to you later no doubt.
<s-fox> Ttfn
<bodhizazen> yea
<moergaes> I'll be off. Thanks for letting us join.
<bodhizazen> moergaes, thank you for attending, it is appreciated
<s-fox> +1
<s-fox> Nice to see people
<bodhizazen> In the future I would like to announce meetings to the community
<moergaes> Some day I might even get to learn the rules and traditions here :-)
<bodhizazen> Just getting started this time
<s-fox> Rules are made for. Breaking. And then bodhizazen can just ban ;-)
<moergaes> :-)
<Artificial_Intel> good idea to make it more public these meetings
<s-fox> +1
<bodhizazen> +100
<s-fox> Right... Either caffeine or bed... Choices :-)
<bodhizazen> I thought it was important to get the process started, now we bring the community into the discussion
<Artificial_Intel> both....
<benonsoftware> bodhizazen: You may already know this but, just to let you know you can also use #voters name1 name2 etc.
<bodhizazen> thanks benonsoftware
<benonsoftware> No probs :p
 * barry waves
 * slangasek waves
<jodh> o/
<cjwatson> hola
 * stgraber waves
<bdmurray> hi
<ev> hiya
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb  1 16:04:20 2012 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek)
<slangasek> cjwatson ev doko jodh slangasek stgraber barry bdmurray
<cjwatson> Mostly this week I have been working on upgrade bugs of one kind or another (bug 917173 and bug 922485 in the apt resolver, which I blogged about; bug 924079, which I posted to ubuntu-devel about today).  More of this probably to come; we are not short of upgrade bugs.
<cjwatson> Fixed mirror handling for ports installs (bug 919356).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 917173 in apt (Ubuntu Oneiric) "lucid -> precise upgrade failed: Resolver failed to calculate the upgrade - dpkg-dev held back" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/917173
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922485 in apt (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Lucid Desktop i386 failed to calculate the upgrade to Precise" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922485
<cjwatson> Patch piloting on Friday morning.  Dealt with parted/dmraid/multipath-tools fallout from some of the branches I landed (bug 922646).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 924079 in apt (Ubuntu) "do-release-upgrade fails to upgrade from Oneiric to Precise" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/924079
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 919356 in choose-mirror (Ubuntu) "Default hostname needed for PowerPC" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/919356
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922646 in parted (Ubuntu Precise) "precise alternate LVM failed to install: no root file system" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922646
<cjwatson> Fixed netcfg and ubiquity fallout from resolvconf.
<cjwatson> Scaled down the ubiquity webcam page (bug 869239); took some fiddling to make the test suite handle this properly.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 869239 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "webcam screen should be resized for netbooks (Eee PC, 10")" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/869239
<cjwatson> Fixed ubiquity fallout from dbus-python 1.0.0 (bug 922988).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922988 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity crashed with UnicodeDecodeError in decode_ssid(): 'utf8' codec can't decode byte 0xe2 in position 0: unexpected end of data" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922988
<cjwatson> Fixed casper to set up ubuntustudio groups properly, then fixed fallout from that for everything else when preseeded (oops).
<cjwatson> Fixed germinate Provides mishandling that broke lucid point release candidate DVDs.  Some other point release preparation.
<cjwatson> Preliminary patch for bug 861048 in grub2, but having some build problems.  Shelved until after Alpha 2.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 861048 in grub2 (Ubuntu Precise) "have really quick '_' on boot before first purple screen" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/861048
<cjwatson> ..
<ev> - Released a new version of whoopsie-daisy (the crash reporting daemon) into
<ev>   the archive. Still waiting on approval for MIR bug 913694.
<ev> - Added retracing support to whoopsie-dasiy. It's currently partially broken
<ev>   as the stack traces change slightly with each new retrace, so a new
<ev>   stacktrace and stacktrace hash gets written to the columnfamily every time.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913694 in whoopsie-daisy (Ubuntu) "[MIR] whoopsie-daisy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913694
<barry> ouch, sorry about 922988
<ev> - Added a small purge tool for flushing the message queue.
<ev>  - Created the control center preferences page after spending an indordinate
<ev>    amount of time digesting the gnome-control-center API that they helpfully
<ev>    made private, forcing us to patch it back in (without documentation).
<ev>  - Short week; vacation on Monday.
<ev>  - Added initial policy kit permission support in the preferences dialog.
<ev>  - Work on the DBus daemon (using GDBus' code generation) for the preferences
<ev>    dialog backend.
<ev> - More work on the DBus daemon. Investigating how to best enable/disable the
<ev>   upstart job.
<ev> (done)
<cjwatson> barry: couldn't quite decide if that was a dbus-python bug or not ... feel free to think about it :)
<barry> will do!
<cjwatson> the fix was str() -> chr(int())
 * doko_ moves to the end of the list
<doko_> stgraber, please go on
<jodh> ?
<jodh> Working on bug 922754. I've identified the cause and currently busy
<jodh> beating the tests with a flaming mallet.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922754 in upstart (Ubuntu) "booting without --no-log causes init and plymouth-upstart-bridge to spin at 100%" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922754
<jodh> â®
<jodh> :)
<stgraber> :)
<stgraber> - Testing tracker
<stgraber>  - Updated some scripts in ubuntu-archive-tools
<stgraber>  - Help with Alpha 2 preparation
<stgraber> - Networking
<stgraber>  - Got resolvconf installed by default (ubuntu-minimal)
<stgraber>  - Fixed issues found after switching to resolvconf (LTSP, LXC, live-build, arkose ...)
<stgraber>  - Most of the SRUs are now in -proposed or -updates (ifupdown, ifenslave-2.6, vlan, bridge-utils)
<stgraber> - LTSP
<stgraber>  - Merged ldm for the first time in a long long time, expecting to do a complete sync from Debian next week
<stgraber>  - Fixed installability from alternate i386 media (where linux-image-generic doesn't exist)
<stgraber>  - Pushed set of fixes to current LTSP trunk in the hope of making it work properly and be able to upload it this week
<stgraber> - ARB
<stgraber>  - Spent some time monitoring the queue and nagging the MyApps developers about bugs
<stgraber> - Friendly Recovery
<stgraber>  - Uploaded new upstart job starting udev, setvtrgb, dealing better with missing jobs, ...
<stgraber>  - Started working on some rework of the menu
<barry> jodh: emacs irc ftw
<stgraber> - Containers
<stgraber>  - Submitted merge proposal for container detection and support in our upstrart jobs
<stgraber>  - Did some more test to have an armhf container running on x86. Just two uploads (sysvinit, mountall) away to having it work (post-alpha2)
<stgraber> - Other
<stgraber>  - Merged bcfg2 (spare time) and started fighting with gamin failing in interesting ways on Precise (because of new glib)
<stgraber>  - Did some cleanup of duplicate upload ACLs and trying to make ~ubuntu-dev consistent (having people with PPU be direct members and everyone else indirect members)
<stgraber> - TODO
<stgraber>  - Feature Freeze is pretty close, so try to push most of the new stuff before it :)
<stgraber> (done)
<barry> interviews. pyqt4-dbus review and upload.  dbus-python 1.0.0 sync.  looked at bug 922721 (not an outcome of the python 3 work).  looked at aptdaemon for py3.  wadllib for python 3.  testing storm package for oneiric.  django/oops consulting.  DM application work.  updated udd docs in the upg.  giving a class on udd later today.  done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922721 in pykde4 (Ubuntu) "python-qt4 applications crash since 4.9-2ubuntu2" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922721
<cjwatson> oh, sorry, I haven't progressed on oauth for py3 :(
<barry> cjwatson: me neither :(
<bdmurray> oliday
<bdmurray> triage of http://launchpad.net/bugs/922884 - not bugpatternable
<bdmurray> triage of http://launchpad.net/bugs/922042 - wrote a bug pattern
<bdmurray> triage of iso-testing bug reports
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 922640 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #922884 Precise Pangolin Installer crashed with: Error: `/etc/resolv.conf` and `/target/etc/resolv.conf` are the same file" [High,Fix released]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 922042 in DOLFIN "matrix-free PETScKrylovMatrix works in 1.0, but is broken in fenics-dev" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<bdmurray> merge bug patterns from Vadim Rutkovsky
<bdmurray> modifications to prebuild.sh for update-manager
<bdmurray> upload of update-manager with new apport hook
<bdmurray> investigation into wubi bug 922330 (wubi from 11.10 installing 12.04)
<bdmurray> push of recent package bug tasks to qa.ubuntu.com (http://bit.ly/wC8FJI)
<bdmurray> patch pilot
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922330 in Wubi "Wubi.exe from 11.10 disc installs 12.04 snapshot." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922330
<bdmurray> â
<jodh> barry: erc?
<barry> jodh: yep
<bdmurray> end of transmission block - I think
<jodh> barry: thanks. I'll give it a try.
<slangasek> jodh: so... what *is* the cause for bug #922754? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922754 in upstart (Ubuntu) "booting without --no-log causes init and plymouth-upstart-bridge to spin at 100%" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922754
<barry> jodh: try it with bip.  ping me if you want some config stuff
<slangasek> hmph, I got skipped
<slangasek>  * isolated a reproducer for upstart bug #922754
<slangasek>  * uploaded mvo's apt merge from experimental, fixing various upgrade+multiarch bugs
<slangasek>  * worked on getting resolvconf into shape (bug #922491)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922491 in resolvconf (Ubuntu Precise) "lucid to precise server upgrade: resolvconf failed to upgrade: cp cannot create regular file `/run/resolvconf/resolv.conf': No such file or directory" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922491
<slangasek>  * looking into whether we can support cross-grades from i386 to amd64 for 12.04
<slangasek>  * in charge of crank-turning for alpha-2 this week
<slangasek>  * interviews
<slangasek> ..
<cjwatson> re bug 922330, it's time-machine territory now, but I wonder if we should make wubi put its version in HTTP headers so that we at least theoretically might have some way to fix this kind of thing in future ...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922330 in Wubi "Wubi.exe from 11.10 disc installs 12.04 snapshot." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922330
<doko_> - more gcc-4.7 fixes and packaging updates
<doko_> - eglibc updates, the dlopen crash in gdk-pixbug-loaders on amd64 is fixed
<doko_> - really export the sunrpc symbols in libc6
<doko_> - prepared and started the test precise test rebuild
<doko_> - catch up on MIR's
<jodh> slangasek: weeeeell. took a lot of work to find it. we were closing the fds correctly, *but* the fd number persisted in an nih watch such that when nih looked for fd activity, it saw the (now invalid) fd and returned EBADF. repeatedly :)
<bdmurray> cjwatson: I dont' know how people find wubi but putting a new wubi.exe at http://people.canonical.com/~evand/wubi/oneiric/ might help
<cjwatson> bdmurray: the bug reports that it came off the CD image
<slangasek> jodh: doh... :)
<bdmurray> cjwatson: okay, yes but I tested it by just downloading 245.exe
<cjwatson> although I agree that a build of r247 there wouldn't go amiss - ev?  I'm surprised we didn't have one there actually
<ev> I think we didn't put a newer build on the CD because it was determined that they wouldn't be using the download a compressed disk image path when running off the CD
<ev> as this was an 11th hour release thing
<ev> if memory serves
<ev> so the bug, as I've just commented in the report, is that it's going down the download path at all
<cjwatson> ev: ok, but I wonder how we were expecting them to get it off the website if you didn't publish a build
<cjwatson> it was all a rush that morning
<ev> I'm confused. Why would we be expecting them to get it off the website?
<bdmurray> Isn't that where http://www.ubuntu.com/download/ubuntu/windows-installer takes you?
<cjwatson> well, it sends you to a wubi.exe from a mirror of releases.ubuntu.com I think, but the executable does need to come from somewhere
<cjwatson> and the source for that is ev's people.c.c directory
<cjwatson> so, yes, I think anyone going through the website path is broken right now
<ev> for 12.04
<ev> not for 11.10, unless I'm missing some part of this conversation
<bdmurray> no, for 11.10
<cjwatson> what he said
<slangasek> I've lost the thread here; that bug is about a wubi copied off of a CD, I thought?
<cjwatson> the problem is that 11.10's wubi.exe uses a URL for the disk image which now refers to a daily build of precise
<bdmurray> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-installer/wubi/trunk/view/245/data/isolist.ini
<cjwatson> we cannot fix this for wubi copied off CDs, but the same problem currently goes for people downloading it from the redirect on www.ubuntu.com (which I think is for 11.10)
<ev> in that version
<bdmurray> and the wubi.exe on the cd is the same as the one you download at ubuntu.com...windows-installer
<ev> but I could've sworn that we published a later version on the website...
<cjwatson> ev: so could I, but I can't see how we would have done without there being a build in your people.c.c directory
<bdmurray> I checked the md5sum of wubi.exe at http://releases.ubuntu.com/oneiric/ and it was rev 245
<cjwatson> yes, I just did as well
<cjwatson> matches wubi-r245-signed.exe
<cjwatson> so I think we need a new build, get it signed, get it tested, push to releases.u.c/oneiric/
<ev> yeah
<slangasek> ev: can you take care of that?
<ev> yup, on it
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> there's another wubi bug that turned up in milestone testing which I suspect comes down to the same thing
<slangasek> bug #924752
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 924752 in Wubi "wubi r255 - Ubuntu Desktop failed to install from disk image - wrong download url" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/924752
<cjwatson> no, not quite, I asked ev about that
<ev> yup, I'm committing a fix for that in about 25 seconds
<cjwatson> heh
<slangasek> ah, ok :)
<cjwatson> actually does that mean r247 wouldn't work for oneiric either?
<slangasek> segging into the next topic...
<cjwatson> maybe we do need the same fix there, since it was a failure to fall back to diskimage2
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Alpha-2
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Alpha-2
<slangasek> since I'm minding the crank for this one, if you have any bugs that you think are milestone critical, please let me know :)
<slangasek> there was a casper upload for a preseed issue (thanks, cjwatson)
<slangasek> and it would be good to have a fixed wubi in - sounds like that's on track
<slangasek> any other landmines in the alpha prep?
<ev> new wubi is up
<slangasek> yay
<cjwatson> slangasek: wonder if we should release-note something about amd64 upgrades (cf. -devel)
<slangasek> cjwatson, ev: did Israel get sorted?
<cjwatson> no
<cjwatson> I -> beta-1'ed that
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> do you think that warrants a release note too?
<cjwatson> probably, to stave off pitchforkage
<cjwatson> ev: (wubi branch doesn't seem up to date though)
<ev> fixed
<ev> apols
<slangasek> cjwatson: sorry, was that -devel or #-devel for the context?
<slangasek> on amd64 upgrades
<cjwatson> ev: aha, yes
<cjwatson> slangasek: both :-)  the list has more exposition though
<cjwatson> but briefly any oneiric amd64 system with ia32-libs needs some work to be upgradeable cleanly to precise
<cjwatson> at least afaics
<slangasek> cjwatson: oh right, the date changed so I'm looking in the wrong archive yay
<cjwatson> I think it is fixable but not before tomorrow
<slangasek> yes, I agree that sounds like it should be release noted
<slangasek> what's our recommendation there?
<slangasek> for users trying to upgrade, I mean
<cjwatson> install apt first, if possible
<cjwatson> (from precise)
<cjwatson> that strategy worked for RAOF's system
<slangasek> which is stepping pretty far outside of the update-manager workflow.  Do we want to give them a pointer in the release notes to the launchpad page for a direct download from the librarian?
<slangasek> or do we assume "if you're running 64-bit and upgrading to an alpha, you can figure it out" :)
<cjwatson> well, the list thread was about fixing the update-manager workflow :)  I don't know that it has to be polished for a milestone
<cjwatson> it wouldn't just be a single download since you need new libapt-pkg as well
<slangasek> yep
<cjwatson> we could publish a python-apt program that did it ... but well, not sure it's worth it
<slangasek> cjwatson: can you take the action to get this release-noted in some fashion?
<cjwatson> yes
<slangasek> thanks
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to release-note the ia32-libs o->p upgrade issue
<meetingology> ACTION: cjwatson to release-note the ia32-libs o->p upgrade issue
<slangasek> anything else we're worried about for a2?
<slangasek> if not, we can look a little farther ahead...
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<bdmurray> well we talked about bug 922330 already
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922330 in Wubi "Wubi.exe from 11.10 disc installs 12.04 snapshot." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922330
 * slangasek nods
<ev> could someone lean on the security team to look at bug 913694 for me?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 913694 in whoopsie-daisy (Ubuntu) "[MIR] whoopsie-daisy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/913694
<jdstrand> ev: it is on my list for this week
<ev> jdstrand: yay!
<ev> cheers
<bdmurray> I ran acrss bug 550717 recently
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 550717 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "[Lucid] two accessiblity related bug with Ubiquity, with easy to fix" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/550717
<slangasek> doko_: btw, where are we with java-access-bridge switching off of at-spi?  the task is assigned to TheMuso and targeted to a2, but it looks like desktop team thinks the remaining changes needed are in openjdk-6?
 * cjwatson giggles manically at "accessibility" and "easy" in the same sentence
<slangasek> as easy as 1, 2, shift+ctrl+meta+backtick
<doko_> slangasek, not yet there, have committed it, but it crashes, need to look at it
<slangasek> doko_: alrighty
<cjwatson> I think half of that bug is probably fixed and the other half of the suggested change isn't something we'd be prepared to do
<cjwatson> I'll look into it and leave a comment
<bdmurray> okay thanks
<bdmurray> Then bug 852181 isn't about one of our packages, I think, but is easily confused for one
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 852181 in indicator-session (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Wrong indication again about updates" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/852181
<bdmurray> Its about apt watcher in indicator session
<slangasek> somewhere between update-notifier and indicator-session, I guess
<slangasek> bdmurray: given that I don't think any of us have the spare bandwidth to dive into indicator-session to fix it, not sure what else we can do there?
<bdmurray> I'll see if there are more duplicates about that bug hiding in update-notifier or update-manager to see if there are lots
<slangasek> makes sense
<bdmurray> Okay, that's that then
 * slangasek adds a tag to the bug too ;)
<slangasek> bdmurray: ok, thanks!
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<doko_> http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20120201-precise.html
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb  1 16:54:28 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-01-16.04.moin.txt
<doko_> is now running
<barry> thanks!
<slangasek> aha, there was something else :P
<doko_> and ...
<slangasek> doko_: cool - how do the results look so far?
<doko_> please give the eglibc 2.15 packages a try
<slangasek> and thanks all :)
<stgraber> thanks!
<doko_> slangasek, good, just needed to extend the rpclib reversal
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> I guess we need to tackle that for 12.10, don't we
<doko_> I'm planning the upload for next Tuesday
<slangasek> ... which means I should get my pam package repo regrafted onto the new upstream git one of these days so I can package new upstream releases without crying
<slangasek> doko_: is there a threshold of feedback you're looking for before uploading?
<slangasek> maybe you can ask the qa team to help exercise it?
<doko_> I'll ask on distro and ubuntu-devel
<doko_> but for now pitti and smoser are running it without issues
<smoser> hm...
<smoser> i had to remove it. but likely unrelated issues.
<doko_> you don"t?
<smoser> i'm sorry for being so unhelpful, doku_
<smoser> doko_
<balloons> hello everyone
<retoaded> Hello
<balloons> let's get started.. sorry for being a bit late :-)
<balloons> #start-meeting
<balloons> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb  1 17:08:50 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<balloons> me and my dashes in commands.. whew
<charlie-tca> :)
<balloons> ok, it's been quite a week for everyone and I know your busy so I will try and keep this short.
<balloons> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<balloons> we have 3 outstanding actions.. gema, myself and alourie
<balloons> Let's start with "gema and balloons to provide feedback from mozilla caseconductor meeting"
<balloons> gema, feel free to chome in after myself.. Gema and I met with the case conductor folks on friday.
<gema> will do
<balloons> We talked about the list of requirements we need for case conductor to support our testing. In particular, we noted we are testing groups of applications, not a single application, and in addition we needed to define tests at an application level, but define test runs and cycles at a higher level
<albrigha> I'm present btw.
<balloons> gema, I believe that list of requirements was decided on by the list in dec, correct?
<gema> yes
<balloons> great, so if you haven't seen, go look at the list archives. I'll try and find a link in a min as well
<balloons> The case conductor folks seemed excitied we would be using the product and wanted to make the changes so the tool would be generic enough for others like ourselves to use
<balloons> our other concern was reporting, which they also mentioned they would be beefing up
<balloons> overall I think it went well, and we committed to following up with them to help eliminate the confusion surrounding our requests. It wasn't easy for them to get the concept of so many apps and different flavors of ubuntu :-)
<balloons> In addition, a charm has been created for case conductor, and sometime soon I trust we will have the new version running as a test for everyone to try out
<balloons> Should happen sometime this month
 * balloons crosses fingers
<balloons> that's it for me on that.. gema?
<gema> nothing to add, you did a good summary
<balloons> questions?
<balloons> here is the link to the archive thread btw: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-qa/2011-December/001805.html
<balloons> ok, doesn't look like alourie is present, so we will move his action out again
<balloons> ACTION:alourie to feature AutomatedTesting wiki page prominently in wiki, based upon list discussion
<balloons> [ACTION]:alourie to feature AutomatedTesting wiki page prominently in wiki, based upon list discussion
<meetingology> ACTION: :alourie to feature AutomatedTesting wiki page prominently in wiki, based upon list discussion
<gema> balloons: maybe we should talk to alourie and if he cannot progress this action, have someone else modify the wiki
<gema> in the meantime
<balloons> yes, I agree.
<balloons> last action ACTION: balloons to continue test case review and provide updates on progress
<balloons> I can update and say that we got all of the nautilus test cases reviewed and in the wiki.. In addition, more have been written and are awaiting entrance to the wiki. We made some good progress
<balloons> I will note that case conductor will allow us to export our test cases and import them into case conductor when the time comes, so we will not be having to do rework
<balloons> That also came out of speaking with the cc folks
<balloons> ok, let's move on
<balloons> does anyone have anything to add to the agenda? I'll call on you at the end if so
<balloons> ok.. nice and short then :-)
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Flavor Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Flavor Updates
<balloons> let's start with kubuntu.. anything to update us on?
<balloons> ScottK?
<ScottK> Nothing I'm aware of.
<balloons> ok, thank you
<ScottK> Darkwing: You got anything?
<ScottK> I guess not.
<balloons> :-).. I know charlie-tca is here.. let's move on to xubuntu.. any updates?
<charlie-tca> hi
<charlie-tca> I am running out of time to get alpha2 images tested
<balloons> yes.. time is flying by this week!
<charlie-tca> I don' t see any real showstoppers, but I don't know if we can get them done in time. Respins are just starting now
<charlie-tca> We are looking good other than that.
<charlie-tca> ..
<balloons> :-) hang tough..
<balloons> astraljava, ubuntu-studio updates? how are you doing on alpha2 images?
<astraljava> We are doing them, but at least for me, they're not looking too hot.
<astraljava> I'm in the process of filing bugs ATM.
<astraljava> We're debating on whether we need a respin or not.
<astraljava> ...cause we're missing lightdm-greeter session handling in -default-settings.
<astraljava> But at least we're getting there. :)
<astraljava> ..
<balloons> :-) good luck and thanks! better to have found the bugs now before beta :-)
<astraljava> Exactly. :)
<charlie-tca> +1
<balloons> philw, i believe your around here as wel.. lubuntu updates?
<balloons> I saw the mailing list post.. did you get any feedback on it/
<phillw> we still have an issue with https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lubuntu-meta/+bug/918401
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 918401 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) "Unity-greeter installed by default on Lubuntu, crashing on start" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<phillw> no reply for a Mac tester, I'm going to ask on the main forum.
<balloons> phillw, sadly (well happily for me but :-) ) I no longer have a macbook
<phillw> nothing else to report.
<balloons> thanks phillw -- if anyone has access to a mac and a dvd reader on said machine, get in contact with philw.. he needs help testing a lubuntu iso
<balloons> stgraber, highvoltage : how about edubuntu?
<balloons> ok.. moving on to last topic
<highvoltage> balloons: I've been doing ISO tests for edubuntu today, new spins coming up soon
<highvoltage> balloons: last night we had a good UDW session, otherwise all our other stuff is in the ubuntu-release updates
<balloons> highvoltage, great to hear1
<balloons> no breaking issues then?
<highvoltage> nope
<balloons> awesome..
<balloons> ok, now we'll move on ;-)
<balloons> [TOPIC] Other topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other topics
<balloons> gema, or jibel could you give a quick update on iso testing?
<balloons> from ubuntu side of the fence
<jibel> hi
<jibel> we are currently testing Precise Alpha2 for those who missed the  post to the ML
<jibel> Bugs already found http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/reports/defects/opened
<jibel> all the Ubuntu images are being respun and should be available in the next hours
<jibel> so stay tuned on #ubuntu-testing
<balloons> thank you jibel :-)
<jibel> amd+mac to completely uncovered
<jibel> s/to/is
<jibel> if you have a mac and can test Precise on it that'd be greatly appreciated
<balloons> ohh I see.. http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/206/builds
<jibel> if you don't have a mac you can help with other images as they appear on the tracker.
<jibel> and if you run Windows
<jibel> you can help testing Wubi!
<jibel> ..
<balloons> great, one last call for additional topics?
<balloons> last chance.. :-)
<balloons> ok, sounds good. Happy testing to everyone and good luck on alpha 2!
<balloons> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb  1 17:44:22 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-01-17.08.moin.txt
<njin> good luck
<charlie-tca> Thanks for chairing, balloons
<jibel> thanks balloons
<njin> thanks ballons
<balloons> yvw.. you guys are great to chair for
<bdmurray> Its time for the bugsquad meeting
<bdmurray> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb  1 18:01:31 2012 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bdmurray> #topic Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Previous Actions
<bdmurray> We have one action from the last meeting
<bdmurray> ACTION: create a list of apport-crash bugs with "DBus.Error.NoReply" in the title with bug information regarding status, importance, number of dupes and users affected: bdmurray
<bdmurray> I haven't had a chance to finish this but I've started a search now
<bdmurray> #topic Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Engineering Team Bug Status
<bdmurray> The foundations team is working on a fix for bug 922330
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 922330 in Wubi "Wubi.exe from 11.10 disc installs 12.04 snapshot." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/922330
<bdmurray> While it won't be available on the CD it'll fix the issue for people just using wubi.exe
<bdmurray> I've uploaded a new version of update-manager for precise that'll fix an issue with attachments that I may have mentioned last week
<bdmurray> Otherwise we are busy with alpha 2 bugs ;-)
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: do you have anything?
<bdmurray> Ursinha: do you have anything for the meeting?
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, no new updates from me.
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: kerneloops is working out okay?
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, yes indeed.  Adding plenty more work to ;-)
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, its help identify a few bugs so far.
<bdmurray> great
<bkerensa> hmm
<bdmurray> jsalisbury: you might think about when you want to turn it off too
<jsalisbury> bdmurray, yes, good to keep in mind.  I'll check with the kernel team.
<bdmurray> okay moving on
<bdmurray> #topic Bug Escalations (any High or Critical bugs that community members have seen that need attention)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bug Escalations (any High or Critical bugs that community members have seen that need attention)
<bdmurray> Are there any bugs taht need looking at / review?
<bdmurray> High or critical type ones that is
<bdmurray> #topic Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other Topics
<bdmurray> bkerensa: do you have anything?
<bkerensa> bdmurray: I was hoping someone might have a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/902479 hopefully before we reach release
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 902479 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "LiveCD Installer Progress/Details Expander Does Not Show Progress" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<bkerensa> This bug has been present as far as I can recall since perhaps 11.04
<bdmurray> bkerensa: I've been meaning to test that, thanks for bringing it up
<bkerensa> It isn't a terribly bad bug but if a install stalls it could help for troubleshooting purposes to see where its stalling
<bdmurray> bkerensa: okay, I'll have a look at it this week
<bkerensa> excellent
<bdmurray> Oh there are quite a few merge proposals for the bug patterns bzr branch if anyone wants to help review them
<bkerensa> bdmurray: I plan on re-applying for control in the coming weeks so I can do a little more then triage
<bdmurray> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/apport/ubuntu-bugpatterns/+activereviews
<bdmurray> ^ there is a link
<bdmurray> bkerensa: great!
<bdmurray> okay thanks everyone
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb  1 18:25:22 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-01-18.01.moin.txt
<Ursinha> argh
<Ursinha> ARGH
<Ursinha> unity, y u no showing notifications!?
<phillw> @startmeeting Lubuntu Team Meeting
<meetingology> phillw: Error: "startmeeting" is not a valid command.
<benonsoftware> phillw: Its # :P
<rafaellaguna> LOL
<amjjawad> :)
<phillw> #startmeeting Lubuntu Team Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Feb  1 20:02:38 2012 UTC.  The chair is phillw. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<amjjawad> easy on him guys
<michaelrawson> poor phill.
<benonsoftware> :P
<wxl> \o/
<jmarsden|work> o/
<michaelrawson> o/
<phillw> hi folks!
<StephenSmally> hi!
<Yorvyk> \o
<moergaes> MÃ¶rgÃ¦s o/
<amjjawad> Hi :)
<iceroot> o/
<rafaellaguna> hi :)
<wxl> hi not-gilir
<phillw> #topic previous actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  previous actions
<phillw> As Julien is niot here, I'll carry his action over to the next meeting
<phillw> #topic update from QA
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  update from QA
<wxl> was that the unity/lightdm bug?
<phillw> The bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lubuntu-meta/+bug/918401 is still there and I have just seen the mailing list suggest things may have gotten worse.
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 918401 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) "Unity-greeter installed by default on Lubuntu, crashing on start" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<amjjawad> phillw: r u talking about my email?
<phillw> the one suggesting 100MB of unity updates have appeared.
<wxl> yeah, ok, bummer that we can't deal with that asap as this new unity issue in alpha 2 is probably going to end up revealing that bug is still there
<wxl> i.e. i don't think they're related bugs-- but two really nasty ones
<rafaellaguna> so it's a dependency bug
<wxl> but i guess that's neither here nor there
<michaelrawson> Are dep bugs hard to fix?
<amjjawad> are we talking about this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1918534
<michaelrawson> Because the only way I see is tracing the train of deps until we find one that references unity.
<wxl> amjjawad: yes
<jmarsden|work> Guys, the topci is "Update from QA" -- let Phill provide the update :)
<amjjawad> wxl: thanks :)
<rafaellaguna> remember that we're going gtk-greeter
<iceroot> michaelrawson: aptitude why unity
<phillw> There were two builds today, I've got the newer one & will trying it later.
<michaelrawson> aah
<michaelrawson> thanks iceroot!
<wxl> i looked for alpha 2 last night and couldn't find it. where is the iso?
<phillw> the a2 has not been released yet. We're still on daily build.
<amjjawad> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
<wxl> phillw: thx
<amjjawad> this is what I told the guys on that thread but looks like they insited :/
<amjjawad> anyway, so updates from QA?
<amjjawad> insisted*
<phillw> We still got a bug, and possibly another one has landed. I'll update the bug report, the testing system for QA of isos is progressing. Not much else from the QA team.
<phillw> #topic Update from IRC OPs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update from IRC OPs
<phillw> Unit193: is there an update about IRC OPs?
<Unit193> Seems not everyone is in the two new channels, but that coudl be because they haven't been online
<Unit193> Not two new Lubu, just for OPs
<wxl> new channels just for ops you mean?
<Myrtti> _o/
<Unit193> Well there's one
<Unit193> Myrtti: Anything I'm missing?
<wxl> Unit193: you said two? and one? um?
<Unit193> wxl: Two new channels for the OPs, but there's one other OP that spoke
<Myrtti> well the transition seems to be going well atleast from my viewpoint, we might want to discuss the duplicity of the launchpad groups
<Unit193> Right, one was setup before, and had an easy way to contact other than IRC
<Unit193> From this side it's hit a few bumbs
<Myrtti> I'm new to Lubuntu but old to the IRC ops operations so I can help in some regards - don't plan to push my agenda or viewpoints to anyone, I'm here just for fun and giggles
<phillw> Unit193: do you want to remove the listing we had before we were adopted?
<Unit193> We'll see if it's of any use
<Myrtti> I'd suggest no decisions on that is made yet, the issue hasn't been prepared enough to decide either way
<phillw> okies, anything else to report?
<phillw> #topic Update from comms team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update from comms team
<phillw> It has been decided to not go ahead with the interviews with muktah owing to negative comments about their level of professionalism.
<phillw> We'll get something re-scheduled and put onto ubuntu.net
<amjjawad> phillw: so it's final?
<amjjawad> nothing with them whatsoever?
<phillw> yeah.
<amjjawad> ok :)
<phillw> #topic Update from Support
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update from Support
<phillw> amjjawad: ?
<amjjawad> Ok, I already reported that bug about Unity on the mailing list
<amjjawad> everyone is informed now :)
<amjjawad> another thing is, I have started to recruit new members to my team (support team). Those members are known to be very active on the forum with many years of experience
<amjjawad> one of them has already joined today and I'm still looking for more
<rafaellaguna> that sounds great!
<phillw> excellent :)
<amjjawad> One thing I don't understand ... why we keep waiting for some action from UBT?
<amjjawad> I mean, can't we make our own beginner team but yet part of them somehow? I see no progress from them for months now??!!
<phillw> amjjawad: I understand their draft structure will be out before the end of this month.
<amjjawad> but we've been heard that many times now?
<phillw> I had not.
<amjjawad> point is, I can be a mentor for Lubuntu beginners users
<phillw> But I'm chatting to the guy writing it :)
<amjjawad> only Lubuntu
<amjjawad> I care about Lubuntu the most as all of u know
<michaelrawson> ;)
<phillw> amjjawad: which will possibly be a Focus Group.
<amjjawad> yes
<amjjawad> why not :)
<amjjawad> I've been very sick lately and my recovery is really slow. Once I'm fully recovered, I'll start to write a full guide for beginner
<amjjawad> then I'll help StephenSmally to write some Docs about LSC :)
<phillw> amjjawad: take your time & get better. Poorly people are not as efficient as well people!
<amjjawad> oh, and wxl has created a group for Lubuntu and both of us are taking care of it https://www.facebook.com/groups/lubuntu.official/
<StephenSmally> Ok, i figured out i had to help you, not the reverse XD
<amjjawad> phillw: I can't stay clam, u know me  :P
<michaelrawson> StephenSmally: it's the only way with AJ. :P
<amjjawad> calm*
<phillw> okay, Chris is running late this week, so we'll move onto StephenSmally
<amjjawad> StephenSmally: yes yes sure :D
<wxl> everyone should join the group
<StephenSmally> Here i go
<phillw> #topic LXLauncher
<wxl> it's called "LUBUNTU OFFICIAL"
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  LXLauncher
<wxl> so it is THE ONE
<StephenSmally> wxl: i'm joining now
<StephenSmally> Well LxLauncher
<rafaellaguna> o_O
<StephenSmally> as you probably have seen on the Mailing List, i'm working on a rewrite of LxLauncher
<StephenSmally> to give you an idea, here a screenshot (two min ago) of lxlauncher (the rewrite) themed with css
<StephenSmally> http://i40.tinypic.com/bip24y.jpg
<michaelrawson> now that's cool.
<michaelrawson> but why the gaps?
<StephenSmally> Because are category-sorted
<michaelrawson> ahah. :)
<StephenSmally> on the right you see the categories (needs some separators), and on the right the apps
<StephenSmally> in this screenshot is themed a little like gnome shell
<StephenSmally> but every theme is possible, since is just gtk theming
<rafaellaguna> even icon sizes and transparency?
<StephenSmally> rafaellaguna is better at this ;-)
<StephenSmally> mmm no
<amjjawad> StephenSmally: quick Q
<StephenSmally> the icon size and the number of columns are configured by a desktop file
<StephenSmally> amjjawad:
<amjjawad> LXLauncher will work like Unity Menu or something similar?
<phillw> grr
<StephenSmally> can you explain better?
<rafaellaguna> anyway, it's configurable someway
<amjjawad> I couldn't follow the emails coz I was sick
<michaelrawson> phillw: lol, I thought somebody would say that.
<amjjawad> so LxLauncher ... why it looks like Unity menu?
<StephenSmally> rafaellaguna: you can configure the columns number, the theme and the icon size
<StephenSmally> amjjawad: because now is themed like the unity menu ;-)
<StephenSmally> we can theme as we want
<amjjawad> I'll send you later and discuss about that
<amjjawad> keep the meeting going :)
<StephenSmally> Anyway, it won't be ready for Precise, so we have all the time to speak about and so on
<rafaellaguna> once knowing the css/gtk bases, everything will run
<rafaellaguna> there was no intention of removing current LxLauncher
<amjjawad> good so we have time, phew :D
<rafaellaguna> until replacing with this
<StephenSmally> only if we (the community) think is better than the current lxlauncher we will replace it
<rafaellaguna> of course
<phillw> StephenSmally: thanks.
<rafaellaguna> but I'd like to get rid off that annoying GTK2 and dependant libraries from the distro
<rafaellaguna> it will be cleaner for devs and for designers :)
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha
<amjjawad> Hola MrChrisDruif :)
<MrChrisDruif> At what topic are we?
<michaelrawson> lxlauncher
<michaelrawson> mk. II
<phillw> MrChrisDruif: just about at yours, I made you next
<MrChrisDruif> Coolio
<phillw> #topic Update from Docs / Wiki
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Update from Docs / Wiki
 * MrChrisDruif first grabs food
<StephenSmally> anyway, it act in way similar to unity
<StephenSmally> but is not a shell
<StephenSmally> is always in background (omnipresent)
<StephenSmally> and if you want launch an app, just click on.
<StephenSmally> just think at it like the current lxlauncher, and how it act in the current Lubuntu netbook session
<StephenSmally> my rewrite is thinked also for tablet (in the current lxlauncher is impossible change tab with finger)
<StephenSmally> anyway, for comparision
<StephenSmally> current lxlauncher: http://wiki.lxde.org/en/images/5/5c/LXlauncher.png
<rafaellaguna> my personal headache
<MrChrisDruif> Is the previous topic done? Whatever it was?
<phillw> MrChrisDruif: I think so, I didn't realise StephenSmally was writing!
<StephenSmally> rafaellaguna: agree
<MrChrisDruif> StephenSmally; done?
<StephenSmally> done ;-)
<MrChrisDruif> Awesome
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, work has started on some level with the wiki
<MrChrisDruif> My friend and current chair phillw began setting up some pages to practice with the #divert tag
<MrChrisDruif> When he's done with that he'll also write some docs on how to use that, thanks already for what you've done phillw
<amjjawad> I'm updating some pages every time I find myself ree
<amjjawad> free*
<amjjawad> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/ContactUs << today I updated this page
<MrChrisDruif> Secondly on the help pages we've got a FAQ section. which now is divided into Guides and Workarounds, which is not a good divider if you ask me
<amjjawad> and I'm sure phillw and MrChrisDruif know about the issue I mentioned earlier :)
<MrChrisDruif> I notice sometimes amjjawad
<MrChrisDruif> About the duplicity amjjawad ?
<amjjawad> +1 I don't like the current FAQ layout
<amjjawad> MrChrisDruif: yes
<amjjawad> I sent many emails today and I'm totally lost now :/ I did not get replies yet!
<MrChrisDruif> One suggestion is replacing it with a indication level to the experience a user would require to use them
<MrChrisDruif> amjjawad; I had to work today, having dinner as we speak
<amjjawad> MrChrisDruif: are we talking about FAQ now?
<MrChrisDruif> Yes
<amjjawad> MrChrisDruif: whenever you are free, ping me on Gtalk
<amjjawad> ok?
<amjjawad> we need to talk :)
 * MrChrisDruif lost track of mind
<amjjawad> so we talk discuss other stuff on the meeting as our time is tight
<phillw> (20:47:06) MrChrisDruif: One suggestion is replacing it with a indication level to the experience a user would require to use them
<Unit193> We also need to not sandbox out wiki from the rest
<rafaellaguna> sorry guys, need to go. as always, it was a pleasure
<amjjawad> cya rafaellaguna ;)
<michaelrawson> bye rafael
<phillw> tc rafaellaguna
<MrChrisDruif> Anyhow, I think the most effective way for the docs team is to use the mailing-list
<rafaellaguna> ;)
<MrChrisDruif> I'm not always available for meetings or chats
<phillw> sounds good :)
<amjjawad> MrChrisDruif: ok but ...
<MrChrisDruif> I'll reply to your mails amjjawad
<amjjawad> sometimes, I get no reply for something important
<amjjawad> ok then :)
<amjjawad> anything else left for the meeting?
<phillw> #topic UpDate from Devs?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  UpDate from Devs?
<wxl> amjjawad: as i said i've just been busy
<phillw> Anyone from dev team here?
<amjjawad> wxl: never mind, I knwo ;)
<wxl> â¦but i'm fully behind you :)
<amjjawad> know*
<gilir> phillw, I can finish the meeting with some news
<phillw> of course!
<gilir> (and hi guys :))
<wxl> !!!
<amjjawad> hey :)
<gilir> sorry for missing the party today :)
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha gilir
<moergaes> Hi there.
<wxl> (( we should finish the meeting by going back to our first topic!!! )))
<gilir> speaking of alpha 2 ...
<gilir> you probably noticed the "little" problem on alpha 2
<MrChrisDruif> gilir; what is up with the pulling of unity to Lubuntu?
<wxl> hah
<wxl> </irony>
<gilir> on desktop ISO, we have unity installed, it's a bug
<amjjawad> gilir: yeah?
<StephenSmally> i missed something?
<amjjawad> great news :)
<wxl> what of lightdm-gtk-greeter/unity-greeter issue? i pointed out that i still have the problem with a fresh daily.
<gilir> probably because we have still unity-greeter, with generate a chain of horrible depends
<amjjawad> StephenSmally: yes, gilir is here :D
<StephenSmally> good!
<MrChrisDruif> So it's due to unity-greeter?
<amjjawad> so gilir any time frame when that bug will be fixed? just for everyone's info :)
<gilir> alpha 2 will be rebuilt later tonight, but I fear the desktop ISO will not be good enough
<gilir> amjjawad, problem is, I don't know why we have still it on the ISO
<wxl> as i said above ^^ i think a major bug still remains
<amjjawad> gilir: so is that bad news?
<amjjawad> wxl: yes :(
<gilir> amjjawad, not bad news, we have time to fix it, just not time to fix it for alpha 2
<MrChrisDruif> Would it be a problem for anyone if we prolonged this meeting with about 30 mins?
<wxl> hey *I* have a question
<amjjawad> gilir: thanks but are you saying it might be fixed with Beta1 ?
<wxl> is there any way we can get the ppc daily to NOT be oversized?
<phillw> bugs at alpha, expected... bugs at beta... bad news.
<StephenSmally> no problem MrChrisDruif
<gilir> amjjawad, no, it must be fixed, alpha 2 is still a developpement release
<amjjawad> phillw: good tip :)
<amjjawad> gilir: ok thanks :)
<gilir> don't be too nervous about it, it's a not a big problem
<gilir> it's just very visible :)
<amjjawad> gilir: I'm not but users on the forum are somehow freaked out ... u know :)
<wxl> amjjawad: reassure them
<wxl> it's an alpha, we're testing
<amjjawad> for me, I'm sure you guys will fix it  :)
<gilir> wxl, yes, sorry about this, I hope futur daily will be better :/
<MrChrisDruif> phillw; beta's still contain bugs, it would be bad if they still exist at final
<amjjawad> Yes, will do that
<wxl> gilir: ok, i just remembered you saying that you didn't have problems with latest daily and so i wanted to be sure i wasn't crazy :D
<gilir> other news, lubuntu-software-center 0.0.4 should be ready after alpha 2
<michaelrawson> gilir: would I be rigt in thinking that 0.0.4 is in bzr already?
<gilir> michaelrawson, yes, just need to check with StephenSmally the steps to release a tarball
<StephenSmally> (sorry, i'm new at this release stuffs)
<gilir> StephenSmally, don't worry about this :)
<gilir> any others questions ?
<phillw> gilir: wxl had one re: the ppc isos. The macs only have cd drives. so oversize is a serious issue.
<gilir> ah, I didn't know that :/
<gilir> I'll try to be carefull for the future
<gilir> phillw, it's all for devs team :)
<phillw> gilir: as ever, thanks.
<phillw> #topic any other business.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Lubuntu Team Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  any other business.
<amjjawad> Yes
<phillw> if there's nothing else, we can wrap up. Hopfully gilir will be back as chair next week :)
<amjjawad> I have sent an email to the Comms team regarding an official feedback channel
<michaelrawson> phillw
<amjjawad> but that can wait :)
<michaelrawson> nvm, just making sure you noticed AJ
<amjjawad> nothing urgent
<amjjawad> michaelrawson: thanks mate :)
<phillw> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Feb  1 21:08:46 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-01-20.02.moin.txt
<MrChrisDruif> That's all folks?
<gilir> thanks phillw :)
<amjjawad> ok thanks everyone ... cya soon :)
<amjjawad> there is a match to catch up with ;)
<michaelrawson> StehpenSmally: can we meet in offtopic, or are you busy?
<moergaes> See you all, bye!
<michaelrawson> no problem if the latter.
<StephenSmally> no problem
<StephenSmally> channel?
<MrChrisDruif> StephenSmally; #lubuntu-offtopic
<StephenSmally> ok
<StephenSmally> here we go
<michaelrawson> lubuntu-offtopic, or lubuntu-software-center, whatever suits you. :)
<michaelrawson> thanks phillw, gilir.
<MrChrisDruif> michaelrawson; that's even a channel?
<michaelrawson> when we frequent it XD
<michaelrawson> usually me asking for help.
<michaelrawson> :)
<michaelrawson> kk, bye everyone!
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-02-02
<ogra_> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  2 15:00:06 2012 UTC.  The chair is ogra_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ogra_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120202
<ogra_> bah
<ogra_> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120202
 * davidm waves at ogra_ 
<ogra_> hmm, wh doesnt the bot take my link ...
<ogra_> anyway
<ogra_> everyone here ?
 * ogra_ sees them roll in :)
<janimo> :)
<janimo> I initially logged in to ubuntu-meeting on another server finding the room empty
<ogra_> heh
<ogra_> convenient
<ogra_> hey GrueMaster
 * GrueMaster waves
<ogra_> so lets get rolling ... mind you my Y key is apparently broken, dont laugh if i type weird things :)
<davidm> ogra_, do you need to use the # and not[?
<ogra_> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2012/20120202
<ogra_> nope :)
<davidm> Interesting
<ogra_> not that important
<ogra_> so NCommander isnt around, i'll run the meeting ....
<ogra_> Standing Items ...
<ogra_> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/ubuntu-arm.html
 * ogra_ waits for GrueMaster running gag ...
<GrueMaster> sorry, I was busy testing all the images and gaging on my coffee.
<ogra_> we're pretty well under tthe trend line ! (if it would be angled correctly)
<ogra_> and ppisati apparently found a fix for the blocker of the "no initrd" spec ... he's my hero of the week !
<infinity> Neat.
<ppisati> ogra_: wait until you try it out... :)
<ogra_> indeed :)
<infinity> Of course, unblocking it creates work. ;)
<ogra_> mahmoh seems pretty behind (25 WIs, only 2 done) shoudl we ask him if he needs help ?
<GrueMaster> I ask every week.
<ogra_> (likely due to NCommander assigning the world to him)
<ogra_> k
<ogra_> nothing else seems to stick out badly atm ...
<ogra_> moving on ....
<ogra_> [topic] == ARM Server Status (NCommander) ==
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: == ARM Server Status (NCommander) ==
<ogra_> anyone here who can report about that ?
 * ogra_ can say that we have approval to get the unsupported kernel to main to fix our d-i issues 
<GrueMaster> Image automation is currently stuck due to no initrd generated during install.
<ogra_> but we dont have a kernel package yet
<GrueMaster> Not an official kernel, no.
<ppisati> no initrd generated during install?
<ogra_> f-k-i issue
<infinity> If we have approval to get it in main, we can tidy up dannf's and JFDI.
<GrueMaster> ppisati: Only on the server platform.
<ogra_> infinity, feel free if you dont have anything else to do ...
<GrueMaster> Not an f-k-i issue.  I have tested it, it does the right thing.
<infinity> ogra_: I have lots else to do, but this is important enough to make time.
<ogra_> cooloney will do it otherwise ... once he returns from new year drinking :)
<ogra_> i know its on his TODO
<infinity> ogra_: Since getting the kernel in will cascade into massaging d-i and other bits.
<ogra_> right
<ogra_> GrueMaster, well, then kernel package postinst ... one for these things :)
<GrueMaster> NCommander had a test kernel working based on 3.0 with a minimized patch.  Whittled down the 500k lines to ~15k.
 * ahs3 pokes dannf on another channel...and volunteers his time to help with the kernel :)...
<infinity> ahs3: That works too.
<ogra_> davidm, do you know when cooloney returns ? does it make sense to have infinity look at the kernel ?
<ogra_> ah, k
<infinity> If dannf can tidy up a kernel package, I'll do the d-i bits.
<infinity> And we'll be golden.
<ogra_> i guess any preparation work cooloney can get is fine
<ogra_> ok
<ahs3> infinity: excellent
<davidm> Next mondya
<infinity> And cooloney can worry about 3.2, which is what he should be doing. :P
<ogra_> [action] dannf to tidy up a kernel package
<meetingology> ACTION: dannf to tidy up a kernel package
<ogra_> [action] infinity to pull said kernel package into d-i
<meetingology> ACTION: infinity to pull said kernel package into d-i
<infinity> Waste of his time to package old kernels anyway.
<ogra_> ok, anything else ?
<ogra_> movinmg on then
<ogra_> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<ppisati> nothing exciting: omap4 1405.7 is finally out
<ppisati> and there's a new round of SRUs
<GrueMaster> Yea, good timing on that.  :P
<ppisati> aprt from that, yesterday i palyed with UUID (aand with GPT + UUID it works)
<ogra_> \o/
<ppisati> and now i've some stuff in the queue for audio (both omap3 and omap4)
<ppisati> that's all from me
<ogra_> well, TI says there are fixes in the new tree
<ogra_> for omap4 at least
<ppisati> ogra_: right, i'll have to try them
<infinity> I need to stop getting distracted from other work and test jcrigby's mx5 kernels.
<ppisati> btw, audio on beagle has never worked, right?
<infinity> s/from/by/
<ogra_> ++
<GrueMaster> Not since the kernel was from main.
<ogra_> infinity, doesnt janimo also have the mx5 ?
<ppisati> GrueMaster: k
<infinity> ogra_: We all do, don't we?
<ogra_> janimo, could you take over that test ?
<infinity> janimo: If you have time... What he said.
<ogra_> infinity, i dont
<GrueMaster> Actually, I should test the mx5 kernel, as I have both old & new platforms.
 * ogra_ still recovers from babbages ... still needs another CPU iteration before i can touchj FSL HW again ;)
<janimo> I can run the mx5 tests sure
<infinity> GrueMaster: You were busy alphaing, which was why I didn't ask earlier.  ;)
<janimo> it just seemed everyone was already on the new mx5 kernels :)
<ogra_> [action] janimo or GrueMaster to test the mx5 kernel from jcrigby
<meetingology> ACTION: janimo or GrueMaster to test the mx5 kernel from jcrigby
<GrueMaster> Which reminds me, A2 will not run on the new mx53 Quickstart board (Rev R).
<infinity> janimo: Err, they were?
<ogra_> anthing else ?
 * ogra_ counts to three
<janimo> infinity, well you and GrueMaster have been talking about the ppa since over a week IIRC
<ogra_> moving on ...
<ogra_> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<GrueMaster> Talk is easy.  :P
<janimo> GrueMaster, mine is rev F so hopefully is still fine. It was last week anyway
<ogra_> anyone ?
<janimo> the only one I tried fixing is the qtwebkit
 * ogra_ didnt look at ftbfs at all this week
<infinity> gcl and acl2 got off the FTBFS list this week.  A couple other minor bits and bobs.
<ogra_> ay
<janimo> but has the same memory exhausted error on my panda as in the buildd
<ogra_> yay even
<ogra_> bah
<infinity> I need to look more deeply into the "mmap" issue, which has nothing at all to do with kernel bugs. :P
<janimo> with 8G of swap even
<ogra_> use 16 :P
<infinity> I'm fairly sure binutils is leaking.
<ppisati> well, if your process need more than 3GB, you are screwed
<infinity> More swap won't help.
<ppisati> you can add as much swap as you want, but it's still 32bits
 * ogra_ wasnt serious
<ppisati> and with the 3/1 split
<ppisati> 3GB is for userspace
<infinity> Anyhow, powerpc is a 2/2 split, and it doesn't fail in the same places.
<infinity> binutils is pretty clearly doing something Very Bad on ARM.
<ppisati> ok
<infinity> (ppc32 having a 2/2 split is a bug, mind you, which I should file...)
<GrueMaster> Someone also should look at bug 925246.  Only fails (repeatedly) on armhf panda.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 925246 in kde-workspace (Ubuntu) "ksysguardd is causing a kernel oops on armhf only" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/925246
<ogra_> so its all doko's fault anyway
<ppisati> infinity: wait
<ppisati> infinity: did you have the same bug with 1405 too?
<ppisati> s/did/do/
<infinity> ppisati: 3.2.0-1405-omap4 <-- Still exists on that kernel.
<ppisati> infinity: ok
<infinity> ppisati: Err, by "bug", we mean binutils exhausting RAM.  The 2/2 -> 3/1 thing is fixed.
<ppisati> infinity: i see
<infinity> So, binutils just eats 3G instead of 2G now. :P
<infinity> Not really progress.
<ppisati> hungry toolchain :)
<infinity> Anyhow.  Needs more investigation and round tuits.
<ogra_> right
<infinity> I might end up delaying other things I'm doing to just make it happen, since it's now causing failures in main.
<GrueMaster> heh.
<ppisati> infinity: is there a way to reproduce it?
<infinity> ppisati: Build qtwebkit-source or haskell-src-exts.
<infinity> ppisati: Wait patiently.
<ppisati> infinity: how long does it take?
<ogra_> reall patiently
<infinity> ppisati: And once you have a failed tree, you can just re-run the last line over and over. :P
<janimo> infinity, is this a bug acked by Linaro too?
<infinity> ppisati: It takes ~4h to fail the first time, after that, it's maybe 10m to fail the link over and over?
<janimo> and the last line failing takes an hour or more IIRC :)
<ogra_> we can ask rsalveti when he's up :)
<infinity> janimo: Nah, it's nowhere near an hour, if you're swapping to disk like a sane person.
<janimo> infinity, USB external disk yes. I remember going away and finding Qt still linking after a loong time
<janimo> will time it, I stil have the tree around I think
 * infinity times it right now.
<infinity> Anyhow.
<infinity> Moving on?
<ogra_> yep, wanted to wait until you guys are done :)
<janimo> :)
<infinity> janimo: Oh, and no, I haven't gotten around to filing a bug and involving Linaro, because "binutils sucks" is more of a guess than something I've confirmed, so far.
<janimo> ah ok
<ogra_> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra_> err
<ogra_> sorry
<infinity> This seems familiar.
<ogra_> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_> nothing to report, we're ready for A2
<ogra_> anyone ... anything ?
<ogra_> oh, one thing
<infinity> Nope.
<GrueMaster> All images tested and no major show stoppers.
<infinity> Yup?
<ogra_> doesn anyone know who enabled d-i server images ?
<GrueMaster> ???
<infinity> Looking at /etc/default-arches, they've been enabled for ages.
<ogra_> we seem to have built normal alternate server dailies for a while
<infinity> And no one noticed.
<ogra_> weird
<infinity> Or, people noticed, but no one cared. :P
<ogra_> yeah ...
<GrueMaster> I downloaded one, will look at it later today.
<infinity> I think it's come up before, and we kept forgetting to turn them off.
<janimo> disable them and start building omap4 live images in the same time slot :D
<infinity> janimo: Uhh.
<infinity> janimo: They build in about 3 minutes.
<ogra_> well, once the new kernel is around we want them, n o ?
<infinity> janimo: Not really the same "time slot". ;)
<janimo> well, when I mean time slot, I mean ..... instead :D
<GrueMaster> We will want them for the actual server platforms, yes.
<ogra_> iirc the target image for that kernel is a server alternate
<ogra_> right, so lets just keep them running
 * rsalveti waves
<ogra_> its not that its a big waste
<infinity> ogra_: Yeah, we can scrub default-arches and build for just that subarch.
<rsalveti> sorry, 2 meetings at the same time :-)
<ogra_> rsalveti, take your time, ou're not up yet :)
<ogra_> anything else about images ?
 * ogra_ moves on then 
<GrueMaster> On other images, I propose turning off armel on some platforms (omap).
<ogra_> that should wait until after FF
<ogra_> since we havent actually made the decision yet
<ogra_> davidm, opinions ?
<davidm> wait until after FF
<ogra_> k
<ogra_> moving on
<davidm> we need to evaluate el vs hf and then shutdown images in the one we are not going to use
<ogra_> right, thats what i thought
<ogra_> though tobin is drowning in images atm
<davidm> from where I'm sitting hf is looking better and better every day
<ogra_> yep
<ogra_> i also think hf it is :)
<davidm> understood, only another week
<ogra_> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
<GrueMaster> Lots of milestone testing this week.  All images on all platforms tested.  Minor bugs found, some more annoyances than anything.
<infinity> (FF is in two weeks, BTW, not one..)
<GrueMaster> No show stopper bugs.
<GrueMaster> Also started testing SRU kernel updates (excellent timing).
<ogra_> FF is my b-day :)
 * ogra_ will tr to get the oem-config preseeding fixed around FF btw
 * GrueMaster can't imagine any of ogra_'s features freezing, but it is cold in the EU.
<ogra_> i have planned a timeslot for it
<ogra_> yeah, -10 Â°C....
<ogra_> not even the cats want to go out
<GrueMaster> Good.  That will greatly help automate smoke testing images.
<ogra_> anything else apart the weather ?
 * ogra_ moves on ...
<ogra_> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
 * rsalveti waves again :-)
<ogra_> :)
<rsalveti> https://launchpad.net/linaro-dev-platform/+milestone/12.02
<rsalveti> our planning for this cycle
<rsalveti> mostly trying to get things in place, and working on improving the lava usage
<rsalveti> for unity, also making sure it's always working
<rsalveti> by enabling it by default at our images
<ogra_> how about the compiz bits ?
<rsalveti> that still something we need to sort out next week
<ogra_> we would like them in the archive
<rsalveti> at linaro connect
<ogra_> k
<infinity> rsalveti: Any interest in looking at the binutils memory exhaustion thing? ;)
<rsalveti> who is going to connect?
<infinity> o/
<rsalveti> infinity: bug? :-)
<infinity> David and I, I believe.
<ogra_> infinity, oh, you go !
<infinity> rsalveti: Unfiled so far, was investigating.
<ogra_> awesome !
<rsalveti> great
<infinity> rsalveti: But it's the one people were calling a kernel "mmap" bug until we fixed the kernel and it wasn't. :P
<rsalveti> infinity: please check our sessions at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/linaro-ubuntu?searchtext=linaro-platforms-q112
<rsalveti> got it :-)
<ogra_> is linaro in any way intrested in LibO ?
<ogra_> seems NCommander is out for another few days and will then be swamped in ubuntu-server
<infinity> rsalveti: Steve and markos already subscribed me to a fair few things, I think, but I'll poke.
<ogra_> and we would like to get it fixed
<infinity> ogra_: Does NCommander have a working tree he can hand off to someone else?
<janimo> ogra_, if NCommander is swamped I can continue with LibO
<ogra_> infinity, i have *no* clue at all
<ogra_> janimo, that would surely help !
<ogra_> [action] janimo to look into LibO
<meetingology> ACTION: janimo to look into LibO
<davidm> janimo, yes please grab Lib0
<janimo> ok
<rsalveti> great :-)
<GrueMaster> I have his panda he was using to build LibO on.
<rsalveti> we can try to have a look at that
<rsalveti> it's important for armhf anyway
<ogra_> yeah
<GrueMaster> janimo: I'll ping you after the meeting with the ipv6 info.
<janimo> GrueMaster, I'll ping you once I am at a point that I need his changes, thanks
<rsalveti> that's all from my side
<janimo> GrueMaster, ok
<ogra_> its still a lot time until release... but would be good to finally fix it
<rsalveti> sorry, also at another meeting at the phone
<rsalveti> yeah
 * ogra_ moves on 
<ogra_> [topic] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<infinity> Yeah, plenty of time to release, but I want our armel/armhf decision at feature freeze to be as informed as it can be.
<ogra_> anyone ?
<ogra_> anything ?
<ogra_> seems not ...
<ogra_> RAISE YOUR HAND NOW OR STAY SILENT !
<ogra_> going once
<ogra_> twice
<ogra_> adjourned
<ogra_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  2 15:45:22 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-02-15.00.moin.txt
<sabdfl> hello all
<akgraner> hey sabdfl
<dholbach> hey
<beuno> o/
<dholbach> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  2 17:04:03 2012 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<dholbach> so, I just had a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda
<pleia2> o/
<dholbach> and it seems we have a chat with the DMB today :)
<czajkowski> Aloha
<dholbach> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, tumbleweed, stgraber: anyone of you around?
<micahg> yes
<tumbleweed> dholbach: hi
<Laney> OH that is TODAY!
<YokoZar> excellent
 * tumbleweed wa just about to run off :P
<dholbach> #topic Meeting the Developer Membership Board
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Meeting the Developer Membership Board
<dholbach> how are all of you doing?
<Laney> rocking
<tumbleweed> today just took a bad turn, personally, an hour ago, but I've been typing hard at a UDW session for an hour, so the adrenaline is there :P
 * dholbach hugs tumbleweed :)
<tumbleweed> dmb is looking good, I think
<dholbach> how do you generally feel is the DMB doing?
<dholbach> always on top of things? no backlog building up?
<Laney> I think we get by pretty well these days
<Laney> we haven't missed a meeting in ages
 * stgraber waves
<dholbach> I was also under the impression that meetings are now quite regularly - which is great
 * Iowan is FC rep - si 2b late
<tumbleweed> we've also been talking about things to do to improve the application process
<tumbleweed> maybe some self-test questions to let you know if you're ready, but nothing much happening theree atm...
<czajkowski> tumbleweed: great to hear
<dholbach> tumbleweed, so new applicants have a better idea if they should apply or not?
<tumbleweed> dholbach: yeah, and also so they know what we expect all ubuntu developers to do
<tumbleweed> (i.e. subscribe to ubuntu-devel-announce, understand freezes)
<tumbleweed> *e.g.
<czajkowski> tumbleweed: do you feel the number of DMB members is enough ?
<dholbach> that might indeed work
<sabdfl> tumbleweed, aching wrists?
<tumbleweed> czajkowski: we've been quorate for the last few months, so yes
<tumbleweed> although I did come in as a standin for a missing persia :/
<dholbach> the developer advisory team I set up with huats recently started mailing people who had done a lot of great work to offer a bit of support - if we can get any feedback, we could share it with you
<czajkowski> tumbleweed: great to hear, that is sometimes an issue for boards. glad the dmb is ok
<YokoZar> tumbleweed: Is there anyone (or a lot of anyone)'s that you feel should have been developers long ago but aren't now for some reason?
<tumbleweed> sabdfl: hah, actually a death in the family, but nm that right now :)
<dholbach> sorry to hear that :-(
<Laney> :-(
<tumbleweed> YokoZar: hopefully most developers tell people when they should apply
<tumbleweed> we had to push jtaylor for months :P
 * YokoZar recalls it was debian's developer-membership rigidity that drew him to Ubuntu to begin with, whereas at Ubuntu he was directly asked to join...
<dholbach> yes, I hope the d-a-t can help identify cases like that a bit earlier going forward :)
<tumbleweed> YokoZar: yeah, ubuntu's open community was a big reason I got drawn in
<tumbleweed> (I hardly even run it on any machines...)
<dholbach> how much of your work do you feel is directly related to dealing with applications? is there many other things which need discussion or organisation as well?
<YokoZar> tumbleweed: That interests me greatly :)  I'm wondering if the next me is out there and if we're doing everything we can to find him and tell him "Hey, this is great, not only will I sponsor your packages but I want you to go through this super easy process and upload them yourself."
<tumbleweed> dholbach: hrm, maybe 5-15 mins of each meeting
<Laney> I would hope that Debian sponsors are encouraging people to go through NM when they are ready too. Although granted it is a lot more in depth.
<tumbleweed> and then there is out-of-meeting stuff, micahg has been doing lots of packageset team structure cleanup
<Laney> Also we should discuss whether Ubuntu Contributing Developer is worthwhile.
<micahg> Laney: did you mean here or in general?
<dholbach> Laney, as far as I recall a lot of RMBs were very happy that there was a board out there which could review development contributions and make a better informed decision about it
<Laney> the CC are probably interested in it.
<micahg> well, I think it's worthwhile, but should be used sparingly for those who just need to keep the safety net
<Laney> yeah, well the problem is we hardly ever get applicants from it and people say that they find it confusing
<Laney> s/from/for/
<tumbleweed> yes, it probably does sit as an unecessary extra step for many people
 * tumbleweed encourages people to bypass it when I think they are ready
<micahg> it shouldn't be a step for most people, maybe I can give editing the wiki a shot to make that more clear
<dholbach> do you get many applicants for membership?
<Laney> I don't get the impression that new developers are bothered about it
<Laney> no
<tumbleweed> it's been quiet recently
<Laney> not that we get many new MOTU at all though
<dholbach> I guess there's still a few motu work items from a blueprint :)
<Laney> always
<tumbleweed> eep
<dholbach> which wouldn't instantly solve the problem.... but probably invite some folks again
<tumbleweed> yeah, always need more motu
<micahg> well, 2 in the last 2 months with another most likely after precise releases
<dholbach> is there anything you feel which should be really fixed in the DMB? you all seem to be generally quite happy with how the board is running
<czajkowski> Also is there anything the CC can help the DMB with ?
<Laney> still, I think I have come to the opinion that it's probably not worth having UCD as a Separate Thing
 * tumbleweed had entirely forgotten that this meeting was coming so, nothing on my mind
<YokoZar> micahg: Regarding clarifying the wiki, thank you muchly
<micahg> Laney: I don't think people should be forced to get upload rights, if someone wants to help, but without getting upload rights, we should be able to recognize that
<Laney> when has that ever happened?
<tumbleweed> on the other side of the coin, the membership requirements can make it harder for us to give PPU
<dholbach> Laney, maybe it'd be an idea to write a blog post explaining what UCD was designed to be and then ask for comments from everyone to get an idea of how many folks would like to go through the process - maybe it's not sufficiently advertised or explained - or maybe there's no interested in it at all
<Laney> it creates a lot of confusion for a theoretical possibility that could be handled in some other way (RMBs)
<Laney> I've posted to -devel about it before and didn't really see anyone who strongly cares about it
<micahg> well, I'm going to try to clear up the confusion on the wiki
<Laney> if we really want it just say "We can also award membership without upload rights if you meet the [[general guidelines]]"
<Laney> (This is called being a Contributing Developer).
<Laney> or something.
<dholbach> yeah, that sounds reasonable
<tumbleweed> de-emphisising it should remove most of the issues there
<Laney> right, bury it
<dholbach> anything else on your list of pressing concerns? :)
<Laney> if this person ever comes along then someone can tell them that the possibility exists
<Laney> well, just the continued absence of persia, but that's not just us :'(
<tumbleweed> I seem to recall someone where PPU was clearly grantable, but the person hadn't done much to deserve membership, yet
<tumbleweed> but I can't remember offhand
<Laney> not sure anyone is unhappy with upload rights implying membership in all cases, even when we perhaps wouldn't grant membership separately
<Laney> i'm quite relaxed about that tbh
<YokoZar> Yeah that seems reasonable
<tumbleweed> yeah, it's not a big issue
<dholbach> I didn't run into cases where it would have concerned me
<Laney> the CC is aware that all developers are added to ~ubuntu-dev, and that that is in ~ubuntumembers
<dholbach> usually there's quite a bit of work involved into understanding the process, learning about all the bits involved, where work is happening, but you can't just see it yet
<dholbach> Laney, I am :)
<Laney> i am glad that this advisory team effort is happening
<Laney> it felt like a bit of an expansion too far to expect the dmb to be responsible for recruitment as well as assessment
<dholbach> yes, Christophe and I are going to announce it some time next week and hopefully get a few new contributors to help us out
<dholbach> I agree
<dholbach> any more questions from the CC?
<dholbach> or anything from the DMB members where CC members could help with?
<tumbleweed> nope, pub quiz time for me!
<micahg> no, I think in the past when we've needed the CC, they've been responsive
<dholbach> the only thing on my list is: take a look at the motu blueprint again :)
<Laney> which?
<dholbach> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-motu-bof
<dholbach> but that's unrelated to the general DMB + CC meet-up
<dholbach> czajkowski, beuno, Gwaihir, YokoZar, pleia2, akgraner: any more questions from you?
<pleia2> no, thanks for coming :)
<beuno> nope, all sounds great
<akgraner> none from me - thanks for all the information
<YokoZar> Thanks for coming :)
<Gwaihir> nope, all looks good
<czajkowski> no thank it's been really intersting to leanr what ye folks do
<dholbach> thanks a lot - and thanks for doing a great job on the DMB!
<dholbach> great
<dholbach> as far as I can see there's nothing else on the Agenda
<dholbach> #topic Other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other business?
<akgraner> Teams page clean-up and CoC 2.0
<dholbach> aha!
<dholbach> good points
<dholbach> #topic Teams page
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Teams page
<pleia2> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
<dholbach> akgraner, want to give an update?
<akgraner> sure  - so the link pleia2 just gave is out of date
<akgraner> so I started a drafts page #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/draft/Teams
<akgraner> I added many of the Canonical lead teams based on the feedback from UDS about people wanting to know how to get in contact with various teams and who lead those teams
<YokoZar> Oh, I had a quick update ~ voting software to discuss as well
<akgraner> I also found that reporter, approved and approved date didn't mean much to people so I am changing that as well
<akgraner> I should have it finished by Saturday for everyone to review and if approved we can change it out and start recommending it again
<akgraner> thoughts?
<dholbach> maybe a call for review via blog?
<dholbach> so folks who never updated their team record can just go ahead and do it?
<akgraner> dholbach, I was going to so that once I had the page cleaned up
<dholbach> ah, cool
<dholbach> sounds good to me then
<pleia2> long term, do we have a plan to maintain this?
<akgraner> I think we should - someone has to take ownership of it
<dholbach> personally I think it'd be good if the job wasn't tied to us specifically :)
<dholbach> and teams would just go and update their date
<akgraner> but who then?
<dholbach> even if it would require us to do some annual poking
<akgraner> dholbach, um that didn't work in the past
<Gwaihir> just an idea: isn't the IRC column redundant? Since there is no real information about what is the channel, maybe rely only on the team's page?
<akgraner> that's how it got this out of date - people add stuff and never go back and look at it
<akgraner> it's meant to be a quick level over view
<akgraner> maybe that's all they want what channel can this team be found in without going to the team page
<akgraner> one click to find all the relative information is what I was thinkingg
<akgraner> thinking
<Gwaihir> yep, but there is no real channel name, adding the channel name maybe?
<akgraner> I haven't added any of the new column information those are just place holders right now
<Gwaihir> got it
<akgraner> :-)
<dholbach> if there's people who don't mind looking after it every now and then, then that's great
<dholbach> maybe we should continue the discussion via mail?
<akgraner> fine with me
<akgraner> :-)
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> #topic CoC 2.0
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: CoC 2.0
<dholbach> so, a few changes have been introduced in the ubuntu-codeofconduct branch recently and it was suggested to merge the leadership coc into the CoC
<dholbach> to give it a bit more publicity
<dholbach> AFAIK akgraner (was it you?) put up a google doc already
<akgraner> so I added the LCoC and the CoC on one document  - I've made some changes to it - but others still need to take a look
<dholbach> I could take an action to massage the changes into the branch as a merge proposal, so we can all take a look at it together again
<dholbach> and then make the decision to get it into LP, the website and all the other places if we all agree
<akgraner> it still reads like 2 separate documents
<YokoZar> legit
<akgraner> and maybe that's ok  - we just need a better lead into the LCoC part of it - I changed a little of it to make it flow but it still needs some more work
<dholbach> ok, I'll take the action to mergeproposalify it, so we can review it together
<beuno> where is the doc?
<dholbach> there was a link in one of the emails
<dholbach> I can dig it out and post an MP tomorrow
<beuno> cool
<akgraner> thanks dholbach
<dholbach> ok, rocking
<dholbach> moving on
<dholbach> #topic voting software
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: voting software
<dholbach> YokoZar, your stage
<YokoZar> So, my volunteer who maybe might write us usable voting software messaged me the other day
<YokoZar> He envisions a bit of a larger project, but wanted to cover our use case, and wanted to know if something based on Google App Engine is ok
<YokoZar> Since we already use an offsite service (CIVS) I don't think it's any worse
 * dholbach has no opinion
<dholbach> sabdfl, do you have anything to say about the above?
<beuno> yeah, it's not portable, which sucks a bit
<beuno> but not worst, I agree
<YokoZar> There's an attempt at a free lower-featured app engine replacement we could run ourselves I think, and his software may work on that (he mentioned it)
<dholbach> would it present us with a CIVS-like service which is going to work with Launchpad Teams (OpenID teams support)?
<YokoZar> That was basically my only request, so presumably ;)
<dholbach> if you need more opinions on the google app engine criterion, best just bring it up with the rest of the CC in an email
<dholbach> so we can see if there's more opinions
<YokoZar> Yeah fair enough
<YokoZar> Ok that's that
<dholbach> Anything else?
<dholbach> #topic Administrativa
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Administrativa
<dholbach> I guess we should decide on next chair, who does the wiki update and the like
<dholbach> maybe we should also fire up an etherpad and write the minutes together
<dholbach> that way we all get to go in 2-3 minutes :)
<dholbach> YokoZar, beuno, akgraner, pleia2, Gwaihir: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/zCK129zmpU :)
 * akgraner looks
<akgraner> dholbach, doesn't meetingology give you all the bits once the meeting ends?
<akgraner> and you can just copy and paste?
<pleia2> only if you diligently use #info for every important thing ;)
<akgraner> ahhh
<akgraner> ok nm me :-)
<dholbach> hum, I guess we better get using #info the next times then
<dholbach> ok, if we're done with the minutes, I'm happy to update the wiki - who's the next chair?
<akgraner> I can't chair but I'll be happy to help with admin stuff once the meetings end
<dholbach> ok, let's find the chair next time - we always found somebody
<dholbach> akgraner, I'll update the team report - can you do the next meeting time and everything?
<akgraner> sure can
<dholbach> excellent
<dholbach> thanks everyone!
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  2 18:03:00 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-02-02-17.04.moin.txt
<beuno> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-02-05
<astraljava> Is there anyone here for the Ubuntu Studio contributors meeting?
<knome> o/
<astraljava> Whee! :)
<knome> +l?
<knome> :P
<astraljava> Ok, maybe next time, then.
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-28
<italy> :)
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> Hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 28 18:00:31 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> nice to start on time today :)
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Christian Kuersteiner (ckuerste) provided debdiffs for lucid-oneiric for xymon (LP: #1092412)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1092412 in xymon (Ubuntu Precise) "Xymon Multiple XSS" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1092412
<jdstrand> Christian Kuersteiner (ckuerste) provided debdiffs for quantal for ruby-actionpack-3.2 (LP: #1100188)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1100188 in rails (Ubuntu Lucid) " Unsafe Query Generation Risk in Ruby on Rails" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1100188
<jdstrand> Christian Kuersteiner (ckuerste) provided debdiffs for quantal for ruby-activerecord-3.2 (LP: #1100188)
<jdstrand> thanks to ckuerste for his help on security updates for these community supported packages. Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> last week I was community and I patch piloted
<jdstrand> this week I've got a chromium-browser upload to sponsor/test
<jdstrand> and two embargoed issues
<jdstrand> I'd like to take another look at our blueprints as well
<jdstrand> I plan to finish a couple of outstanding audits as well
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I just published a couple of USNs
<mdeslaur> and I have something embargoed to look at
<mdeslaur> and then will continue going down the CVE list
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week too
<mdeslaur> that's it, sbeattie you're up
<sbeattie> I'm still focused on apparmor this week, specifically the display manager mediation prototype.
<sbeattie> that's prettymuch it for me. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm working on an embargoed item
<tyhicks> I also need to upload new dbus and linux packages to the dbus-dev PPA for some patches that'll allow dbus to detect if apparmor supports dbus rules
<tyhicks> Then I'll (re)start work on the AppArmor kernel policy interface workitem
<tyhicks> That's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you'r eup
 * jjohansen is working on the apparmor label and stacking code again, and we should see a new patchset this week. Currently I am chasing down a refcounting bug that is causing oopses
<jjohansen> after the new patchset gets pushed, /me will be moving on to env var filtering
<mdeslaur> \o/
<jdstrand> \o/
<jjohansen> sarnold: I think your up next
<sarnold> the dnsmasq patchset just kept growing, I handed off a braindump and four debdiffs to mdeslaur last week, it's a bit annoying to feel defeated by an update, but it's nice to look forward to something more approachable this week :)
<mdeslaur> sarnold: hehe, don't worry about that :)
<sarnold> this week I'm working on an update for squid and reviewing jjohansen's patches
<sarnold> I'm also on community :)
<sarnold> jdstrand: your turn :)
<mdeslaur> sarnold: cool. Squid is your priority this week.
<sarnold> mdeslaur: thanks
<mdeslaur> sarnold: I'd like to see squid published on thursday
<mdeslaur> sarnold: and if you still need testing, it can get pushed back to monday
<mdeslaur> sarnold: is that reasonable?
<sarnold> mdeslaur: I think so
<mdeslaur> sarnold: cool, thanks
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mathopd.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/elinks.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/openarena.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libsmi.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/geshi.html
<jdstrand> Also, there are a lot of merge opportunities for packages listed in http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/. Performing these updates is a great way to help Ubuntu and bolster your developer application.
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks, jjohansen, sarnold: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 28 18:23:39 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-28-18.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-28-18.00.html
<jjohansen> thanks jdstrand
<sarnold> thanks jjohansen
<tyhicks> thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<sarnold> hehe
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<jjohansen> haha
<jdstrand> :)
<sbeattie> thanks jdstrand
<tumbleweed> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
 * barry waves
 * stgraber waves
 * micahg is here, but might lag
<tumbleweed> I think that makes us mostly quorate
<tumbleweed> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 28 19:07:30 2013 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<tumbleweed> #topic Review Previous Action Items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review Previous Action Items
<tumbleweed> * DMB members to read proposal for lightweight amending of ppu rights (for dds) and be prepared to vote next meeting on next action.
 * bdrung arrives.
<tumbleweed> bdrung: don't you want to take over? :)
<tumbleweed> #chair bdrung
<meetingology> Current chairs: bdrung tumbleweed
<bdrung> tumbleweed: nope :p
<tumbleweed> aww
 * bdrung needs to mentally arrive.
<stgraber> oops, forgot to read the proposal before the meeting, just did that now though ;)
 * tumbleweed digs through e-mail to find it
<stgraber> http://people.ubuntu.com/~laney/dynamic-ppu-procedure.txt
<tumbleweed> do we want to vote on adopting this?
<stgraber> I think so, yes.
<bdrung> yes
<tumbleweed> #vote Adoption of Dynampic PPU Procedure
<meetingology> Please vote on: Adoption of Dynampic PPU Procedure
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<bdrung> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdrung
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<tumbleweed> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Adoption of Dynampic PPU Procedure
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<tumbleweed> Great, adopted
<tumbleweed> #action laney to publish that somewhere
<meetingology> ACTION: laney to publish that somewhere
<tumbleweed> #subtopic DMB to sort out re-election stuff.
<tumbleweed> who is driving this election? micahg?
<micahg> I guess I am
<tumbleweed> ok. Anything we need to discuss?
<barry> well, voting is supposed to start today
<micahg> nothing in public that I"m aware of, save that it will probably be a 10-12 day voting period, is that ok?
<barry> lasting until 11-feb
<bdrung> don't we discuss the nominees?
<micahg> in public?
<barry> (according to the laney's announcement)
<bdrung> just confirm who is on the list
<tumbleweed> I don't see a major problem with a 10-12 day voting period
<micahg> bdrung: I don't think so, but we'll discuss amongst ourselves
<tumbleweed> but would prefer it if we could start it tomorrow, and end it on midnight 10-11th (or something like that)
<micahg> yeah, that's what I would like to do as well
<tumbleweed> ok, cracking on
<tumbleweed> #topic Review any packageset descriptions that have been received (micahg)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review any packageset descriptions that have been received (micahg)
<tumbleweed> lol
<tumbleweed> (I assume there are none)
<micahg> no, I do have to finish that...
<tumbleweed> #topic Aron Xu's application for upload rights to im-config and other pkg-ime packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Aron Xu's application for upload rights to im-config and other pkg-ime packages
<tumbleweed> but he doesn't appear to be here
<tumbleweed> poked on IRC
 * barry could have sworn we had two applications today
<micahg> umm, it would be an odd time for him
<tumbleweed> barry: did you get any reply to your mail to him about the meeting slot?
<bdrung> barry: Paul Gevers moved his application to the March 25, 2013 meeting
<happyaron> Hi
<tumbleweed> happyaron: hi
<barry> happyaron: hi!
<tumbleweed> sorry, should have pinged you earlier
<tumbleweed> would you care to introduce your application?
<happyaron> it's my mistake to not getting the time right...
<tumbleweed> this probably should have been a 14:00 UTC meeting, wasn't the last one 19:00?
<happyaron> okay, let me introduce.
<micahg> tumbleweed: I commented as such, but was told I was wrong :)
 * barry was confused by that this morning too
 * stgraber too
<tumbleweed> ok, back to happyaron
<happyaron> well, it was because input method support isn't very well in Ubuntu, and I'm currently one of the most active person on it in Debian. Advised by Daniel a year before, I decided to apply for PPU recently, to work more directly in Ubuntu to make sure more people get benefited from my work.
<happyaron> Input method is something very important for its users (like me), and it's not that easy to get the point for people who don't use it.
<tumbleweed> thanks happyaron
<tumbleweed> micahg: you have a qustion?
<micahg> happyaron: are you asking for PPU for all IME packages or just a subset?
<micahg> err..all pkg-ime packages
<happyaron> yup
<happyaron> plus im-config
 * tumbleweed wonders why im-config isn't in pkg-ime
<bdrung> happyaron: which input method do you use and which language do you write?
<happyaron> tumbleweed: because there are people don't like pkg-ime, like most Japanese maintainers.
<happyaron> bdrung: I used SCIM for three years before IBUS, and IBus for two years before switching to Fcitx, and Fcitx for two years till now.
<happyaron> bdrung: I'm a native speaker of Chinese Mandarin.
<micahg> happyaron: in your various sponsored uploads to Ubuntu, have you had any interaction with the release team and/or the release process, including freezes?
<happyaron> micahg: yes but not very much in deep freeze. Ubuntu used to upload cutting-edge IBus to its archive with unstable features pushed out by RH, and it's embarrassing in a freeze. Actually some versions of IBus are quite stable, and most of my work is to persuade people sync or not sync a version of the software at some points of the release.
<micahg> happyaron: right, I'm interested in that sync or not sync part :)
<happyaron> For fcitx, I coordinate the release with upstream to make sure the version we want to have in Ubuntu just-in-time for FFe.
<happyaron> micahg: Looking at the version of IBus in previous Ubuntu releases, some of them are shipt with ibus 1.x.99999 version, which is a beta version of ibus 1.(x+1).
<happyaron> At that time I was usually pushed by local users to communicate with upstream about the issue, and then try to apply as many as patches that upstream/me consider suitable.
<micahg> happyaron: so, if you had the choice, would you prefer the beta or the old stable?
<happyaron> micahg: old stable
<tumbleweed> happyaron: I'm interested in why you are applying for uplaod rights to im-config, which you've never uploaded in either Debian or Ubuntu?
<happyaron> even beta has many more long waited features, it doesn't worth to make it unstable. If it doesn't work for a user, it's just like you don't have a keyboard when using a PC.
<happyaron> tumbleweed: Actually I've started working on im-switch/im-config for more than a year, but Osamu would like to have every patch pass his eyes, so I leave all the final decisions to him.
<tumbleweed> ah
<tumbleweed> so, what are you intending to do with the upload rights? sync after Debian Import Freeze?
 * tumbleweed is interested to see that ibus has never had an SRU - so either we are shipping fairly stable releases, or nobody is fixing the problems in it :)
<happyaron> tumbleweed: partially, added intention is about making sure that I can get SRU easily.
<happyaron> because the beta version ibus doesn't worth the work for SRU
<happyaron> If you want to fix critical bugs, SRU to a stable version is the best choice. Another reason is the indicator patches.
<tumbleweed> it sounds like the best way to represent the pkg-ime packages is as a packageset
<happyaron> During every release cycle, there must be someone porting the indicator patches to new version of ibus and/or indicator, there is no such interest in the community to work on those stuff - which are very probably needs re-do in next release
<tumbleweed> happyaron: right
<happyaron> I was advised to apply for a team, but I think I need to get used to everything first before doing in that way, :-)
<stgraber> happyaron: so, let's say that a new upstream release of im-config is released on the 12nd of March and that it contains critical fixes you want to see in Ubuntu. What would you do (please note the date, it's important)?
<happyaron> stgraber: it still depends on how big is the changes and how it's important.
<stgraber> happyaron: "critical fixes you want to see in Ubuntu"
<happyaron> stgraber: it's ambiguous for me actually, I'm a DD with experience of nearly two Debian releases already (say Wheezy for 2nd). If it was a simple fix up for a stupid error, then worth to discuss with release team, if the changes is bigger then just wait for next release. It's better to have known problems than introducing new ones.
<stgraber> happyaron: ok. In this particular case, the 12nd of March is after FeatureFreeze, so you can't upload anything that contains more than bugfixes without a freeze exception. Additionnaly, the 13th is the beta1 release for some flavours, so you'd want to contact those too to check if they're interested in the fix.
<stgraber> happyaron: do you know where you can find information about those dates? (FeatureFreeze, beta1, ...)
<happyaron> ReleaseSchedule
<stgraber> good
<stgraber> happyaron: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<happyaron> Already for years.
<stgraber> also note (with my release team member hat on) that we don't need any freeze exception or really anyone contacting us for bugfix uploads. That documentation and dialog is only required if the upload will cause feature change.
<bdrung> happyaron: the freeze in Debian is different than the freeze in Ubuntu. We have a _feature_ freeze in Ubuntu. So bug fixes are allowed.
<micahg> happyaron: also, please keep in mind that the release criteria in Ubuntu and Debian are different, in that if you have a good case, you might be able to get a new upstream version in
<stgraber> Though for bugfix uploads, you should still make sure the archive isn't in some kind of freeze (full or partial) due to a milestone coming up. In those case, it's recommended to poke #ubuntu-release even for bugfixes (for any seeded package)
<stgraber> happyaron: do you know how to check if a package is seeded (on a media that we ship)?
<happyaron> bdrung: I know that, but what I did perviously were usually submitting FFe for those crashing stuff, unfortunately.
<happyaron> stgraber: there is a bzr branch
<happyaron> micahg: I see, that's what FFe for.
<micahg> yeah
<stgraber> happyaron: yeah, but the bzr branch makes it really difficult to know what's actually seeded because it doesn't contain the dependencies/build-dependencies of those packages
<stgraber> happyaron: instead we have a "seeded-in-ubuntu" tool you can use for that
<happyaron> nice to know, what's that?
<happyaron> got it.
<tumbleweed> ok, I think we should wrap this up and take it to a vote
<tumbleweed> I'm suggesting we create an input-methods packagset, which we can describe as
<tumbleweed> packages maintained by the pkg-ime team in Debian, and im-config
<tumbleweed> it's a bit of an odd description, but it covers the packages you are asking for. objections?
<stgraber> (note that the DMB won't keep it in sync, instead we expect to be contacted when something is added to pkg-ime)
<happyaron> stgraber: I see, I'll contact DMB when needed.
<tumbleweed> that can be done by e-mail
<tumbleweed> ok
<tumbleweed> #vote Grant Aron Xu upload rights to a input-methods packagset (pkg-ime packages and im-config)
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant Aron Xu upload rights to a input-methods packagset (pkg-ime packages and im-config)
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<stgraber> +1 [glad to see someone stepping up to maintain those often forgotten yet important packages]
<meetingology> +1 [glad to see someone stepping up to maintain those often forgotten yet important packages] received from stgraber
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<tumbleweed> +1 [ actively involved in these packages upstream and Debian. I'm confident they'll be well looked after in Ubuntu ]
<meetingology> +1 [ actively involved in these packages upstream and Debian. I'm confident they'll be well looked after in Ubuntu ] received from tumbleweed
<bdrung> +1 (good to have someone maintaining the package who uses it)
<meetingology> +1 (good to have someone maintaining the package who uses it) received from bdrung
<micahg> +1 good packaging history in Debian and Ubuntu
<meetingology> +1 good packaging history in Debian and Ubuntu received from micahg
<tumbleweed> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant Aron Xu upload rights to a input-methods packagset (pkg-ime packages and im-config)
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<stgraber> tumbleweed: I
<stgraber> 'll create the package set
<tumbleweed> stgraber: thanks
<happyaron> thanks all, :)
<tumbleweed> happyaron: congratulations :)
<stgraber> and I'll also take care of the team, that way it'll be setup the way I like it ;)
<micahg> happyaron: congratulations
<tumbleweed> hah
<bdrung> happyaron: congrats and welcome.
<happyaron> :)
<stgraber> happyaron: congrats
<tumbleweed> #topic Any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Any other business?
<tumbleweed> next chair?
<stgraber> happyaron: I'm a tiny bit busy at the moment but I should have all of the admin stuff sorted by this time tomorrow. If you need to upload something before that, ping me and I'll sponsor.
<tumbleweed> bdrung, with Laney as backup, I think
<bdrung> so soon again?
<tumbleweed> I last chaired two meetings ago...
<happyaron> stgraber: thank you, I think I won't need that in several days, I'll need work on new versions of IBus and Fcitx this week(end) before uploading.
<happyaron> excuse me that I must leave now, it's already 04:08AM in Beijing and I'm missing my bed...
<tumbleweed> yup, I think we're done here
<tumbleweed> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 28 20:09:32 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-28-19.07.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-28-19.07.html
<tumbleweed> thanks everyone
<barry> thanks tumbleweed !
<stgraber> thanks!
<stgraber> happyaron: good night :)
<happyaron> thanks, and good day/night, :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-29
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 29 16:00:00 2013 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<rbasak> â¢ arosales to investigate why status tracker is not picking up all servercloud area BPs
<rbasak> Hey arosales. Is the agenda actually current?
<arosales> Hello
<arosales> rbasak: ya I took a look. Some of the BPs were missing work items.
<arosales> as soon as the work items are added it should pick it up.
<arosales> reminder to all to not include the string "work item" in the white board too :-)
<rbasak> arosales: ok, thanks!
<rbasak> So that takes us to the next action item:
<rbasak> â¢ all, check status of assigned Work Items and refresh if necessary
<jamespage> o/
<zul> hilo
<rbasak> So we should all do that :)
<arosales> :-)
<rbasak> #topic Raring Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Raring Development
<rbasak> jamespage: over to you?
<rbasak> In the agenda we have:
<rbasak> #link http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-r-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<jamespage> rbasak, sure
<jamespage> OK - so the maas bug list is looking much better - just a few outstanding
<jamespage> thanks roaksoax and the maas tema
<jamespage> looks like we have a few new ones
<jamespage> zul, bug 1099382
<ubottu> bug 1099382 in quantum (Ubuntu Raring) "quantum: Raring depwait on universe package alembic" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1099382
<jamespage> I think that can be closed out now right?
<jamespage> bug 1090593
<ubottu> bug 1090593 in bind9 (Ubuntu Raring) " D.ROOT-SERVERS.NET changing January 3rd 2013" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1090593
<jamespage> that one needs to be SRU'ed as well - I note that lamont has prepared packages already - any takers?
<jamespage> maybe rbasak?
<rbasak> Sure, I can pick that up
<rbasak> Need to check that it's fixed in raring first
<jamespage> I sadly have not fixed bug 671065 yet
<ubottu> bug 671065 in dovecot (Ubuntu) "deliver broken because dovecot.conf uses !include_try" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/671065
 * jamespage berates himself
<jamespage> hallyn, bug 1092715
<ubottu> bug 1092715 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu Raring) "udevadm trigger --action=change not working in quantal and raring" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1092715
<jamespage> ah - right - hallyn wants to make that invalid - some sort of inotify bug on some systems - that would reflect some of the behaviour I have seen
<hallyn> jamespage: i'm talking with pitti right now about the first part of that
<jamespage> smoser, bug 1100920 under control?
<ubottu> bug 1100920 in cloud-init (Ubuntu Raring) "In Ubuntu 12.10, the legacy 'user' cloud-config option is not handled properly" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1100920
<jamespage> hallyn, nice one
<jamespage> I *still* need to get the package list updated for that report
<jamespage> so - http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-raring/group/topic-raring-servercloud-overview.html
<smoser> jamespage, yes.
<jamespage> picking on the reds
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-openstack-ha
<jamespage> is moving forwards - hopefully good working set of charms for grizzly by end of feb
<jamespage> zul: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-openstack-grizzly
<zul> ill update it today
<jamespage> zul, but generally OK right?
<zul> yeah
<jamespage> smoser: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-image-access
<jamespage> and hallyn: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-binfmtns
<smoser> i'll update state there today. we're making good progress recently.
<jamespage> smoser, nice one
<jamespage> smb: I note actions on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-kdump-tool for you - hows that going?
<hallyn> jamespage: yeah, i need to talk to smb and cjwatson about that binfmtns, but i think we'll postpone that
<hallyn> one action item on there i hope to get to today, actually
<hallyn> but the rest i just don't know we have time for this cycle
<jamespage> hallyn, OK _ I suggest you leave in place for the time being and do a status update in the whiteboard
<smb> jamespage, Finished a bit on that today, working with other to get other things together
<jamespage> we can defer later
<jamespage> smb, good-oh
 * jamespage sighs
<jamespage> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-seeded-qa-workflow
<hallyn> jamespage: yes, i'm not defering yet, i'm still hoping to talk to them :)
 * jamespage hits himself round the head
<smb> hallyn, Have not looked into that yet
<jamespage> OK _ so that is moving very slowly
<hallyn> smb: i think the first steps belong to myself and cjwatson
<hallyn> (but we shouldn't talk about that here i guess :)
<smb> hallyn, ok, agree. :)
<jamespage> re ^^ seeded-qa-workflow
<jamespage> hmm - well if people get time please try towrite some tests.
<Daviey> \o/
<jamespage> its lower priority that other work folk have on but if anyone from the ubuntu-server community has time please steal work items!
<jamespage> Daviey, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-cloudarchive
<jamespage> smoser: guess https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-r-openstack-ubuntu-images follows the blueprint above...
<jamespage> anyway - things generally look OK; please keep you blueprints updated (weekly if poss) so we can continue to track progress
<jamespage> rbasak, back to you
<smoser> yes
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Daviey> This weekend FOSDEM
<rbasak> We noted last time that FOSDEM is coming up. Me, Daviey and jamespage are going.
<jamespage> w00t!
<arosales> Scale11x at the end of feb (http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale11x/)
<jamespage> catch "Automating Openstack testing on Ubuntu" at 1150 on Saturday morning in the Testing Automation devroom
 * jamespage goes to write the slides
<arosales> :-)
 * jamespage apologises for the shameless self promotion
 * Daviey adds it to his diary
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<rbasak> hggdh: around?
<hggdh> nothing noteworthy from me. Any questions for me?
<jamespage> o/
<hggdh> yessah?
<jamespage> hggdh: do you have any details of the testing schedule for 12.04.2?
<hggdh> jamespage: nothing should change from what we currently do; but we are going to add new jobs to cater for 12.04.2 (as opposed to 12.04.1)
<hggdh> these jobs should be a copy of hte current ones, only using the updated iso
<hggdh> as soon as we have an usable image we should start
<hggdh> ..
<rbasak> OK, thanks hggdh!
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Hm, cannot think of something worthwhile to report. Are there questions?
<smb> sounds like a no...
<rbasak> I guess not. Thanks smb!
<rbasak> Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> rbasak: any questions?
<rbasak> Nothing new! Any questions for me?
<rbasak> :)
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Open Discussion
<rbasak> Looks like this will be a quick meeting :)
<arosales> quick question
<arosales> hggdh: for my learning :-)  are the tests you are looking at for server at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/243/builds
<arosales> for this example it would be raring daily
<arosales> or are there other tests ?
<smoser> i do have a general discussion item
 * arosales may have missed hggdh . .  .
<hggdh> arosales: for the ISO testing should be similar to these, but for Precise.
<smoser> Februrary 14 is "Alpha 2 for opt-in flavors" (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule)
<hggdh> arosales: plus manual testing, and kernel testing
<arosales> hggdh: are those tracked else where?
<smoser> personally, i feel that we should have some concentrated test prior to and at least produce a coherant image.
<smoser> at least for cloud-images, we keep "release" images indefinitely and its ueful to have a stick in the mud
<smoser> does anyone have any disagreements or thoughts?
<hggdh> arosales: the ISO testing will be tracked at iso.qa.u.c (together with manual tests), the kernel tests in Jenkins
<utlemming> smoser: I agree with producing an alpha2
<arosales> hggdh: ok, thanks for the info. I'll take a look at http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ and https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/SRU%20Kernel/ for server testing coverage
<smoser> jamespage, Daviey ?
<smoser> i'm suggesting we run around like headless chickens to produce something that no one will use
<rbasak> smoser: cloud images only, or CD images as well?
<arosales> cloud images are moving to  3 week release cycle following the kernel.  Those images would have further testing and perhaps more content update than a daily.
<jamespage> smoser, I'd +1 a cloud-image for a2
<utlemming> arosales: except raring is exempted from that cadence until post-GA
<jamespage> utlemming, I was hoping you might say that :-)
<arosales> utlemming: ah, good point for dev
 * arosales apologizes for the incorrect info there for raring.  Thanks for the correction utlemming :-)
<arosales> I think we just need to notify the release team we want to opt in for A2
<smoser> rbasak, i dont know about cd images.
<smoser> i personally find the excercise useful
<smoser> and think that by actually tryint to do things, we'll find lots of fallout
<rbasak> OK sounds like most are in favour of a cloud A2 image anyway
<rbasak> smoser: do you want to take an action to push that forwards?
<smoser> sure.
<rbasak> #action smoser to push A2 cloud image forwards
<meetingology> ACTION: smoser to push A2 cloud image forwards
<rbasak> Anything else for Open Discussion?
<utlemming> rbasak: actually that should be my action
<rbasak> utlemming: ok we'll make it your action. Not sure how to tell meetingology that though :-)
 * rbasak will fix it in the minutes
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<rbasak> The next meeting will be at Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:00:00 +0000. The chair will be jamespage!
<jamespage> w00t!
<jamespage> thanks rbasak
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 29 16:40:23 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-29-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-29-16.00.html
<arosales> thanks for chairing rbasak
<solarcloud_3srcn> Just for anyone interested #trisquel-dev  , is having it first meeting in ages at 5pm UTC about the free O/S http://www.mail-archive.com/trisquel-devel@listas.trisquel.info/msg00671.html
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 29 17:00:51 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/raring
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<cking> o/
<sconklin> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<bjf[afk]> o/
<herton> o/
<smb> \o
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> R/master: first batch of arm multiplatfom patches with support for omap3/4 and
<ppisati> imx6 was sent to the ml, awaiting comments.
<ppisati> In the mean time, i'm tracking down the SATA imx6 regression in 3.8.
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<ogasawara> || apw         || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 6 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-delta-review               || 3 work items ||
<ogasawara> || ppisati     || hardware-r-kernel-config-review       || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-kernel-version-and-flavors || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> ||             || hardware-r-delta-review               || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || rtg         || hardware-r-delta-review               || 1 work item  ||
<ogasawara> || smb         || hardware-r-kernel-misc                || 2 work items ||
<ogasawara> I've been trying to clean house with our work items and drop us blow the
<ogasawara> trend line.  If anyone has items which they can close or postpone,
<ogasawara> please do so.  Thanks.
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Raring Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have rebased the Raring kernel to the latest v3.8-rc5 upstream
<ogasawara> kernel.  I'll plan to upload before EOD tomorrow.
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara>  * Raring:
<ogasawara>   * Mon Feb 18 - 13.04 Month 4 Milestone (~3 weeks)
<ogasawara>  * Precise:
<ogasawara>   * Thu Feb 14 - 12.04.2 Release (~2 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (henrix)
<jsalisbury> I'll post the update for henrix this week.
<jsalisbury> Currently we have 34 CVEs on our radar, with 0 CVEs added and 2 CVE retired this week.
<jsalisbury> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Quantal/Precise/Oneiric/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<jsalisbury> We're skipping a kernel SRU cadence to allow for an additional 3 weeks of testing for the kernel that will ship with the 12.04.2 point release.
<jsalisbury> However, due to regressions, we currently have new Precise, Quantal and lts-Quantal kernels in Testing.
<jsalisbury> Next week the regular SRU cycles will restart.
<jsalisbury> Future stable cadence cycles:
<jsalisbury>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseInterlock
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 29 17:05:33 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-29-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-29-17.00.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-30
<elbuntu> Hi Guys, I would like to help Ubuntu with testing pre-releases, apps etc... I am an Ubuntu user and develop web apps and also know JAVA, C++ & Gambas. How  do I get started?
<jussi> !contribute | elbuntu
<ubottu> elbuntu: To contribute and help out with Ubuntu, see http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
<elbuntu> Thanks guys, I'll check the links out. :)
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Jan 30 16:01:51 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek ogra cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> bdmurray jodh ogra stgraber stokachu barry ev doko slangasek xnox cjwatson
<bdmurray> Blueprints:
<bdmurray> I was working on create and update a BucketSystems column family to keep track of unique systems in a bucket: TODO
<bdmurray> and
<bdmurray> Import developer to package and developer to team mappings and filter the default view on errors.ubuntu.com to problems the developer and their team are responsible for: TODO
<bdmurray> there is a now a user view at errors.ubuntu.com which is part of that
<bdmurray> I completed the following:
<bdmurray> move stable release notes from archiveadmin page and put it in another page and link to it from the archiveadmin page and the SRU page: DONE
<bdmurray> update SRU team documentation to mention that the security team should be pinged for any copies to the -security pocket: DONE
<bdmurray> document pinging the SRU team member of the day in #ubuntu-release to escalate SRUs: DONE
<bdmurray> other work:
<bdmurray> irc discussion with evan regarding errors user parameter
<bdmurray> setup of errors in an lxc environment linked to production cassandra
<bdmurray> debugged user view on errors.ubuntu.com
<bdmurray> setup rpdb2 on lxc versions of errors
<bdmurray> added rpdb2 information to w.u.c/ErrorTracker/Deployment
<bdmurray> sorted out issue with user parameter only working with one source package
<bdmurray> landed fix for bug 1103156 regarding user parameter
<ubottu> bug 1103156 in Errors "not possible to use user parameter on front page of errors" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1103156
<bdmurray> uploaded software-center to raring fixing bug 1095823
<ubottu> bug 1095823 in software-center (Ubuntu Quantal) "Incorrect path for oem descriptor" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1095823
<bdmurray> uploaded software-center fix for bug 1095823 to P and Q
<bdmurray> tested and uploaded fix for bug 1077113
<ubottu> bug 1077113 in apt-clone (Ubuntu) "do-release-upgrade crashes if any directories exist in /etc/apt/sources.list.d" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077113
<bdmurray> testing fix for bug 1098235 regarding update-notifier and gksu
<bdmurray> merge proposal for apport adding a policykit policy to allow pkexec to use apport-gtk
<ubottu> bug 1098235 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "On screen Keybord non responsive for "Report problem" due to update-notifier using gksu" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1098235
<bdmurray> Q SRU verification of bug 1077253 regarding apport
<ubottu> bug 1077253 in apport (Ubuntu Quantal) "possible for ExecutableTimestamp to not be for the binary in ExecutablePath" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077253
<bdmurray> updated w.u.c/StableReleaseUpdates per blueprints
<bdmurray> research into functionality provided by update-notifier
<bdmurray> documentation of update-notifier changes at w.u.c./UpdateNotifier
<bdmurray> reported usb-creator bug 1108327 regaring ubuntu folder
<ubottu> bug 1108327 in usb-creator (Ubuntu) "ubuntu folder not created on a disk made by usb-creator" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1108327
<bdmurray> done
<jodh> * blueprints
<jodh>   - foundations-r-upstart-roadmap: NOPROGRESS
<jodh>   - foundations-r-arm-ubiquity: NOPROGRESS
<jodh>   - foundations-r-upstart-user-session-enhancements
<jodh>     - merged lp:~stgraber/upstart/upstart-make-event-bridge-usable.
<jodh>     - wrote lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/add-session-file.
<jodh>     - wrote lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/remove-basic-user-sessions.
<jodh>     - further investigations into session shutdown.
<jodh>     - finished lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/initctl-list-sessions.
<jodh>     - finished tests + doc for lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/setenv+getenv.
<jodh>     - good progress on lp:~jamesodhunt/upstart/event-prefixes.
<jodh>     - branch updates based on review feedback.
<jodh> Å
<jodh>  
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * ambient light support script added to nexus7
<ogra_>  * set up cpufreq configuration for the interactive governor used on the nexus7
<ogra_>  * hunting IS to get the livefs builder working again
<ogra_>  * lots and lots of testing of fixes from others for the nexus7
<ogra_>  * enable usbnet alongside with teh serial gadget driver on teh nexus7 so serial over USB as well as direct TCP/IP via teh usb cable work now
<ogra_>  * tested the new BT implementation on the nexus7
<ogra_>  * dropped all hardcoded screen rotation bits from nexus7
<ogra_>  * fix up a lot of teh gsettings overrides on nexus7
<ogra_>  * roughly looked into GPS on the nexus7
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_>  * port nx7 images to xz compression (blocked on missing livefs builder)
<ogra_>  * discuss livefs builder situation with infinity (carried over from last week, blocked on builder)
<ogra_>  * fix plymouth vs console-setup racing somehow (likely needs cjwatson advice) to allow initrd-less booting
<ogra_>  * port update-notifier to pkexec to fix onboard vs gksu issues
<ogra_>  * add lux script for making the ambient light sensor work on the nexus7
<ogra_>  * holding a UDW talk about the ubuntu image build infrastructure tomorrow and will likely bother cjwatson or infinity with a review of notes for the talk
<slangasek> ogra_: I saw the RT has been updated; is the livefs builder working again today?
<ogra_> yep
<slangasek> ok, good
<stgraber> ogra_: are you done?
<ogra_> they got it working yesterday biut nobody noticed the stale lockfile
<ogra_> infinity then saved us :)
<ogra_> done
<stgraber> Feature work:
<stgraber>  - Upstart (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-upstart-user-session-enhancements)
<stgraber>   - Session socket branch was merged
<stgraber>   - Event bridge fixes branch was merged
<stgraber>   - Planning the next steps (jobs, packaging, landing).
<stgraber>  - Container (BLUEPRINT: servercloud-r-lxc)
<stgraber>   - MIR: Updated libseccomp to run the test suite and asked for final ack from the MIR team.
<bdmurray> ogra_: I'm almost done with the porting of update-notifier to pkexec
<stgraber>   - MIR: Poked the MIR team about lxc.
<stgraber>   - Code reviews.
<stgraber>   - Planning 0.9~alpha3.
<stgraber>   - Discussed plan for container/security/lxc micro-conference at LPC2013
<stgraber>   - Fixed auto-upgrade-testing to work properly with LXC, now giving the same results as KVM but 2-3 times faster.
 * ogra_ hugs bdmurray 
<stgraber>  - Networking (BLUEPRINT: foundations-r-networking)
<stgraber>   - Some apparmor fixes for the upcoming infiniband support
<stgraber> Other work:
<stgraber>  - Installer
<stgraber>   - SRUed fix for casper bug 984276
<stgraber>  - Networking
<ubottu> bug 984276 in casper (Ubuntu Precise) "installing casper on a non live system causes update-initramfs to fail" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/984276
<stgraber>   - Updated ofono in raring to latest upstream.
<stgraber>   - Tested ofono with all the modems I had around.
<stgraber>   - Started implementing a new ofono backed for NetworkManager. Now capable of listing the modems and properties, not quite connecting yet though.
<stgraber> TODO:
<stgraber>  - Try to finish any LXC feature work for this cycle (1 item left).
<stgraber>  - Prepare some upstart user session debs with all our patches and the initial Xsession scripts and upstart jobs.
<stgraber> (DONE)
<slangasek> stokachu: around?  anything you want to report?
<stokachu> oh sorry
<stokachu> bug: 1103541, being reviewed
<stokachu> bug: 1103644, has a new MP for review
<stokachu> bug: 1023069, further investigation still seems to  point to a corrupt repo, will have further confirmation this week
<ubottu> bug 1103541 in aptitude (Ubuntu) "Please merge aptitude 0.6.8.2-1(main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1103541
<stokachu> bug: 1077095, finished verification for Quantal
<ubottu> bug 1103644 in python-tz (Ubuntu) "Please merge python-tz 2012c-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1103644
<stokachu> done
<ubottu> bug 1023069 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Packages was corrupt" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1023069
<ubottu> bug 1077095 in appmenu-gtk (Ubuntu Quantal) "Please blacklist "IBM Notes"" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1077095
<barry> stokachu: i'll take another look at that mp later today
<stokachu> barry: cool thanks man, hopefully got it sorted out for you
<barry> you definitely picked a fun one :)
<stokachu> hah and here i was hoping it was a low hanging fruit
<slangasek> barry: your turn
<barry> bug 1094823; bug 1103192; bug 1102875; bug 1110470
<ubottu> bug 1094823 in libnet-ssh2-perl (Ubuntu) "Merge libnet-ssh2-perl 0.46-2 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1094823
<ubottu> bug 1103192 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "oneconf-query crashed with AttributeError in /usr/bin/oneconf-query: 'GNUTranslations' object has no attribute 'ugettext'" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1103192
<ubottu> bug 1102875 in oneconf (Ubuntu) "DEP8 test failed with output on stderr" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1102875
<ubottu> bug 1110470 in software-center (Ubuntu) "--measure-startup-time fails with missing import" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1110470
<barry> reviewed/sponsored lp:~dobey/ubuntu/raring/twisted/fix-pygtkcompat
<barry> reviewed/sponsored lp:~mitya57/ubuntu/raring/python3-defaults/resync
<barry> experimented a bit with pybuild
<barry> blueprint workitem for community-r-packaging-guide
<barry> cx_Freeze 4.3.1 into raring
<barry> blueprint workitem: investigating freezing of s-c for startup time improvement
<barry> dmb meeting
<barry> patch piloting (see previous report)
<barry> foundations-r-python-oauth3: upstream released 0.3.5, now packaged in raring, which should unblock the 4 inprogress bugs.
<barry> foundations-r-python-version: no further progress
<barry> foundations-r-python33: DONE
<barry> done
<barry> (hmm, that first bug doesn't seem right)
<ev> - My branch to group error reports that should not disturb the user with the
<ev>   next one that should is ready for review:
<ev>   https://code.launchpad.net/~ev/apport/grouped_reports/+merge/144591
<ev> - Helping jjo get the error tracker infrastructure deployed to stagingstack \o/
<barry> it was a s-c bug
<ev> - Chat with James Troup on whether it makes sense to rework the retracers to
<ev>   use EBS rather than ephemeral storage. EBS on OpenStack was *much* faster in
<ev>   his tests, but he felt that using it now would be premature optimisation. We
<ev>   can always scale out more retracers.
<ev>   - Took an action to bolt gnuoy's script to clear the caches on 80% disk usage
<ev>     to the prodstack infrastructure.
<ev>   We also agreed that we can run the secondary single-node Cassandra cluster on
<ev>   prodstack. This if you don't recall will be used for backup (both failover
<ev>   and saving state) and non-write Hadoop jobs.
<ev> - Dug deeper into d3.js over the weekend, refactoring a lot of the code I wrote
<ev>   to create the average errors per calendar day graph. I'm trying to fix the
<ev>   milestone and date overlap problem while making the full graph easier to
<ev>   read.
<ev> - Sprinting.
<ev>   - Trying to bring whoopsie's memory usage down to a more acceptable level. I
<ev>     replaced the Dbus-based NetworkManager calls with libnm calls, this getting
<ev>     rid of a hard to track memory leak in our usage of GVariant. GVariant has
<ev>     proven really difficult to get right since we started writing whoopsie.
<ev>   - Plugged a few memory leaks discovered with valgrind.
<ev>   - Built out tests to run whoopsie for 15 seconds under valgrind, then run the
<ev>     entire test suite under valgrind. This means we run the suite twice, but I
<ev>     think that's a reasonable compromise for being able to run tests using the
<ev>     normal GLib memory allocator.
<ev>   - Somehow memory usage has increased quite dramatically with all these
<ev>     changes, so I'm bisecting.
<ev>   - Started to look into reducing the number of wakeups in whoopsie. The big
<ev>     cause of this at the moment is GNetworkMonitor, which we use to track
<doko> slangasek just notes he doesn't have any irc connection at the moment
<ev>     changes to the network state:
<ev>     http://developer.gnome.org/gio/2.32/GNetworkMonitor.html#GNetworkMonitor-network-changed
<ev> Blueprints have mostly remained unchanged this week with the sprint. I've taken
<ev> on one additional workitem so far to reduce whoopsie's memory usage. Let me
<ev> know if there's anything else I personally should be looking at. I'm keen on
<ev> seeing how performant apport is on the Nexus 7 just as soon as I can figure out
<ev> this VPN nonsense.
<ev> (done!)
<doko> done! or !done?
<slangasek> unless I've fallen off the network suddenly :)
<slangasek> why yes, I sure have
<xnox> slangasek: you are back? =)
<doko> - backported python3 cross build patches to 2.7, and the packaging. 2.7 is now able to cross-build
<doko> - updated the python3.3 packaging to cross build
<doko> - get cross build fixes upstream into 3.3 and trunk
<doko> - cross-build python*-stdlib-extensions
<doko> - cross-build zope.interface (as a proof of concept that cross-building simple packages using distutils/
<doko> setuptools does work. See http://wiki.debian.org/Python/MultiArch for the details
<doko> - TODO: fix dh_python* to rename to host names, not build names
<doko> (done)
<cjwatson> cross-build zope.interface> oh, *well done*
<barry> doko: i may want to cross build cxfreeze, so i'll come to you if i have questions ;)
<ev> doko: haha, just noticed that :)
<cjwatson> slangasek: still back?
<cjwatson> xnox: maybe you should go ahead
<slangasek> ev: +1 on reducing whoopsie's memory usage & wakeups :)
<cjwatson> aha
<xnox> ..
<xnox> Blueprints:
<xnox> foundations-r-dh-apparmortemplate: Got reply from jamie, currently
<xnox> it's not been worked on on the desktop side, hence will probably be postponed.
<xnox> foundations-r-arm-usb-creator-fastboot-support:
<xnox> complete from usb-creator side, uploaded with nexus7 support into
<xnox> raring. Not sure if we will change the way we publish images.
<xnox> * porting usb-creator to udisks2 api to drop udisks1 from the CD
<xnox>   (udisks2 api is significantly different)
<xnox> * Fixed bug #656009
<ubottu> bug 656009 in usbmuxd (Ubuntu Quantal) "/usr/lib/gvfs/gvfs-afc-volume-monitor kills polar bears" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/656009
<xnox> * Looking into other powertop wakeups
<xnox> * Giving a quick demo "Fixing packages to cross-build" for Developer week tomorrow
<xnox> * Going to FOSDEM on friday.
<xnox> * Reviewed ubiquity branches from ~kylix, got legal ok to merge them.
<ev> slangasek: excellent, I was worried about how wanted that would be
<xnox> * fix a crash in software-center bug #1105021 while trying to verify
<ubottu> bug 1095117 in Ubuntu Software Center "duplicate for #1105021 update-software-center-channels crashed with NameError in trigger_axi_update_and_wait(): global name 'GLib' is not defined" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1095117
<xnox>   app-install-data-partner quantal sru
<xnox> ..
<cjwatson> No blueprint progress to speak of this week, mainly due to sprinting.  Still awaiting review on LP change for foundations-r-phased-updates (I've just poked the maintenance squad about it).
<xnox> (and that still didn't get uploaded into the archive... maybe I should upload it as well.)
<cjwatson> Merged about half of our remaining grub2 delta back to Debian, and working on ideas for merging some of the rest, as the size of our delta has been a pain; not uploaded yet.
<cjwatson> 12.04.2 prep: uploaded base-files, sent status mail, promotions to -updates including the X.org enablement stack, continuing reviews
<cjwatson> Nexus 7 sprint:
<cjwatson>  - Fixed valgrind to not strip vgpreload* on ARM so you don't need valgrind-dbg, and applied patch to implement VCVT.F64.[SU]32 instructions.
<cjwatson>  - Fixed memory leaks in upower.
<cjwatson>  - Tracked down some of update-notifier's memory use (and probably others) to incorrect timestamps created by installer bug; filed bug report which has been fixed.
<cjwatson>  - Mailed ubuntu-devel about some strategies and tools for attacking memory leaks.
<cjwatson>  - Further work on update-notifier, trying to find more memory inefficiencies since I think its use is unreasonable.  I'm going to need to tidy up some more before I can see the real problems.
<cjwatson> ..
 * ogra_ notices that sadly updating the icon cache still levaes me with 620M for an idling desktop
<ogra_> (according to htop)
<slangasek>  * nexus7 sprinting: reviewing upstart branches so that we can enable user sessions
<slangasek>  * systemd packaging
<slangasek>  * SRU processing for 12.04.2
<slangasek>  * BP status:
<slangasek>   * foundations-r-secure-boot: in progress
<slangasek>   * foundations-r-session-management: systemd packaging in progress
<slangasek>   * foundations-r-improve-cross-compilation: stalled; will look at this next month
<slangasek>   * foundations-r-opt-installation: no progress to report; will start on this next month
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> any questions?
<ev> cjwatson: hmm, I wonder if we should have something approaching a common valgrind suppressions file for these glib/gtk based applications
<kyleN> dholbach, Hi. How can I attend/discover achiang's UDW session g+ hangout in 30 minutes?
<cjwatson> heh, achiang asked that too
<cjwatson> I think most of those are not really suppressable - the bulk are reference cycles and such
<cjwatson> but I guess you mean singletons
<ev> cjwatson: yeah, did you get anywhere with refdbg, by the way? It looks fairly dead upstream.
<ev> yeah, there are a few things here and there
<dholbach> kyleN, http://ubuntuonair.com
<cjwatson> I actually think it'd be better to finish pushing gtk up the hill such that you can actually free those properly on exit - there've been a few upstream bugs about it over the years and general consensus that we should
<ev> excellent. I'm all for that
<cjwatson> ev: refdbg> next on the list - it does at least still build (you need libglib2.0-0-refdbg)
<ev> it's a shame that there's no such thing for the gvariant case, but oh well
<cjwatson> no which thing?
<ev> refdbg
<cjwatson> ah, didn't realise it didn't handle gvariants
<ev> I don't *think* it does, but don't quote me
<cjwatson> Maybe it's not enough of a GTye
<cjwatson> *GType
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: not sure if there's anything this week since we're all mobiling?
<ev> I thought it was more that gvariant lives off in its own excessively-optimised little world and that http://developer.gnome.org/gobject/stable/tools-refdb.html wouldn't work
<slangasek> (not to be confused with moblining)
<ev> but I haven't dug deep enough - I just ended up throwing in a convincing enough struct to check the refcounts manually
<bdmurray> slangasek: I have not seen anything other than the carry over bug 1093819 from last week.  What is the next step there?
<ogra_> something like https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-nexus7 ?
<ubottu> bug 1093819 in Wubi "Wubi installed 12.10 amd64 without configuring i386" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1093819
<ogra_> :)
<slangasek> bdmurray: next step is to look at the build system for the wubi image and figure out if something is removing the file
<slangasek> bdmurray: as I noted in the bug log, dpkg's postinst should work unconditionally on initial install
<slangasek> bdmurray: can you carry that investigation forward, since you've been looking at it so far?
<bdmurray> slangasek: looking at the build system?
<slangasek> bdmurray: yes
<bdmurray> slangasek: sure
<slangasek> cheers
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<slangasek> oops, sorry
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile sprint
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Mobile sprint
<slangasek> anybody want to say anything wrt the sprint that hasn't already been said?
<slangasek> it sounds like things are going well
<slangasek> we should have the desktop running in 640k of memory on the n7 by the end of the week, right? :)
 * barry is having a flashback to 1981
<cjwatson> It's certainly making me go through some truly elderly code
<xnox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7/raring-targets well are we at the second marker yet? with desktop + firefox + thunderbird under 1GB of RAM or not ?
<cjwatson> Mm, it'd be nice to have those table cells coloured with assessments
<slangasek> hmm, not sure
<ogra_> ugh, thunderbird
<cjwatson> I feel that I have very little idea of how much overall progress we're considered to have made
<cjwatson> And how much remains
<xnox> ogra_: it's not entirely clear if it's thunderbird or email webapp
<slangasek> the web browser can take up 1GB on its own, so
<ogra_> i hope its not thunderbird
<ev> relax guys, I'm sure it's mutt
<xnox> =)))))))
<ogra_> with QML overlay ?
<xnox> emacs what else does one need =)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> ;P
<ogra_> heh
<ev> I'm 29.
<barry> xnox: emacs under 1gb?  not mine! :)
<ev> ONE GOOD YEAR LEFT! :-P
<ogra_> yeah, its over after that, let me tell you
<ev> :D
<jodh> ev: you'd better buy more tyres!
<slangasek> ev: congrats :)
<ogra_> its starts with your hair ... then your teeth ... and then the rest falls off
<ev> cheers
<xnox> Â¸Â¸.â¢*Â¨*â¢â«âª âHâAâPâPâYâ (Â¯''â¢.Â¸*â¥â¥â¥* Â¸.â¢''Â¯) âBâIâRâTâHâDâAâYâ âªâ«â¢*Â¨*â¢.Â¸Â¸â«âª
<ev> g'aw
<ogra_> but you grow a lot new stuff right above the hips though
<slangasek> xnox: is that the royalty-free version? :)
<ev> hahaha, this has suddenly taken a turn for the graphic
<cjwatson> happy birthday :)
<ev> thanks!
<slangasek> yes, I have several teeth right above my hips now
<xnox> slangasek: it's irc equiv. of singing the song =)
<ogra_> happy b-day yeah :)
<slangasek> they don't tell you that in the brochure
<ev> might want to get that looked at
<stgraber> happy birthday ev!
<ev> thanks!
<ogra_> LOL
<cjwatson> Nexus 7 competitive analysis: http://www.theverge.com/2013/1/29/3929110/surface-pro-disk-space-windows-8
<cjwatson> ;-)
<ev> hah!
<slangasek> wow
<ogra_> hey but at least it can run for 4h on battery !
<barry> i'm sure they won't possibly get sued over that
<xnox>  /o\
<xnox> well I remember shaving off 7GB by stripping architectures off fat-binaries and languages translations from mac os x install...
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Jan 30 16:53:11 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-30-16.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-30-16.01.html
<slangasek> thanks everyone :)
<barry> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<ogra_> thanks !
<xnox> cheers ;-)
<jodh> thanks
<ev> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-01-31
<AlanBell> hi all
<Unit193> Howdy.
<AlanBell> #startmeeting IRC Council
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 31 20:00:38 2013 UTC.  The chair is AlanBell. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Council Meeting | Current topic:
<Pici> aloha
<AlanBell> hi Pici
<AlanBell> I think the others will join at some point
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/IrcCouncil/MeetingAgenda
<AlanBell> but lets carry on and tick off some bits
<AlanBell> #topic Review last meetings action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Council Meeting | Current topic:  Review last meetings action items
<Pici> I'm not sure I remember when our last meeting was...
<AlanBell> last meeting was some time ago, end of November
<AlanBell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/IRCC/20121125
<AlanBell> christmas happened
<Pici> oh hey, I was there.
<AlanBell> and this is a slightly drifted january meeting
<Pici> Its still January here.
<AlanBell> it is :)
<AlanBell> so we sorted out the issue that was in the tracker
<Pici> so... lets see, what did we do last time
<AlanBell> we pruned the akick lists
<AlanBell> m4v membership was postponed, but we can sort that out in a bit when topyli and tm_t have sorted their stuff out
<Pici> hmm hmm
<AlanBell> and me to sort out list of operator applicants for next meeting. . .
<Pici> Do we have mor?
<Pici> e
<AlanBell> why was I going to do that I wonder
<Pici> It wasn't my turn to read your thoughts, sorry.
<AlanBell> I think we did all that
<Pici> I think we might have a pending item in the tracker...
<AlanBell> yes, just seen that
<AlanBell> ok, that last action item was sorted out, it was the last round of operators where we rejected all bar k1l
<AlanBell> there are no applicants in the queues right now
<Pici> Good, good.
<Pici> Er, I think.
<Pici> I mean, its good that nothing is pending.
<AlanBell> good that we did all the actions on the last minutes :)
<AlanBell> #topic Open items in the IRCC tracker
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Council Meeting | Current topic:  Open items in the IRCC tracker
<AlanBell> there is one
<Pici> I didn't think it had a pending ban associated with it, just a kick?
<Pici> or am I misremembering?
<Pici> Yeah, thats what it looks like.
<AlanBell> yes, just a kick
<AlanBell> ok, well we can reply and close that ticket easily enough then
<Pici> Yeppers
<AlanBell> #topic Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Council Meeting | Current topic:  Review Bugs related to the Ubuntu IRC Council
<AlanBell> not got any \o/
<Pici> woo
<AlanBell> lets do AOB next
<AlanBell> #topic Any Other Business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | IRC Council Meeting | Current topic:  Any Other Business
<AlanBell> does anyone have any thoughts or issues they want to raise?
<Pici> Is anyone else here?
<Unit193> Nope.
 * Pici rolls around like a tumbleweed.
 * tumbleweed waves to Pici
<Pici> oops
<tumbleweed> :)
<AlanBell> :)
 * tumbleweed has that effect on the channels I hang out in
<Pici> sooo
<Myrtti> yes.
<Unit193> Bummer, I had hoped someone would get membership. :/
 * AlanBell wonders if m4v is around
<Pici> AlanBell: do we even have quorum if he did show up?
<AlanBell> if topyli and tm_t turn up
<AlanBell> they said they would be later rather than earlier
<Pici> okay.
<Pici> I'm fine with just hanging out until then
<Unit193> AlanBell: Anything new in the IRC bugs?  Bots bugs?
<AlanBell> none assigned to the council as such
<AlanBell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 31 22:03:01 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-31-20.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-01-31-20.00.html
<AlanBell> lets do another meeting soon when we are all around to sort out the membership of m4v
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-02-01
<ogra> hey
<seb128> hey
<ogra> #startmeeting nexus7 status
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Feb  1 16:00:02 2013 UTC.  The chair is ogra. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | nexus7 status Meeting | Current topic:
<ogra> so who is here ?
<ogra> (sorry, i didnt manage to send an announcement  today)
 * xnox is here in spirit.
<ogra> spirit is good :)
<ogra> so ... seems the distro sprint for n7 work this week was quite a success
<ogra> thanks to seb128 :)
<ogra> i personally see the ram usage on an idle desktop being cut in half on my install (using htop)
<seb128> thanks to everyone rather, good team work ;-)
<ogra> battery status was fixed (thanks gema) and the device doesnt randomly shut down anymore
<seb128> rotation and bluetooth working!
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> and it seems that TheMuso has an idea how to get sound working without suspend cycle
<ogra> i personally palyed a bit with gps ... i can gpsd to connect and init the device but sadly thats it
<ogra> (suspecting we need some firmware here)
<ogra> oh, and i worked massively on the interactive cpufreq scheduler
<ogra> the load used to be above 1 all time ... this was fixed this week
<ogra> our worst bug wasnt fixed yet though
<ogra> bug 1068994
<ubottu> bug 1068994 in ubuntu-nexus7 "button1 gets stuck after a while" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1068994
<ogra> ignoring that obstacle i think we made some leap jump this week in nexus7 support :)
<ogra> and work seems to be going on :)
 * ogra has not much to add, anyone else ?
<seb128> yeah, let's keep going this way now that we are started ;-)
<ogra> ++
<ogra> feels like everyone in the distro team actually actively uses the nexus now
<seb128> we had quite some valgrind/leak fix actions from some people this week (thanks cjwatson especially ;-)
<seb128> still quite some of those to do if anyone feels like working on that
<seb128> if you do and need some guidance feel free to ask on #ubuntu-devel or to ping me directly
<cjwatson> ogra: cut in *half*?  wow, that's considerably better than I expected
<ogra> davmor2 gave a nice hint to statgrab too
<seb128> I'm a bit surprised by the half as well
<cjwatson> I thought we'd managed maybe 10%
<ogra> cjwatson, overall the desktop used to take above 600M for me when idling, i'm at 357M now
<seb128> we didn't did really big improvement
<seb128> out of lightdm which cut 25M by not putting the whole process in locked memory
<cjwatson> hm, yes, 400 or so for me
<ogra> (currently with xchat and ff with 6 busy tabs open htop shows 570)
<cjwatson> (that said I have swap)
<ogra> filled ?
<cjwatson> 130M used
<ogra> i have 17M in use
<ogra> intresting
<ogra> oh, big thanks to Laney for uploading maliit
 * ogra cant wait to see it coming out of NEW
<seb128> that as well indeed
<seb128> you can get in laney's ppa if you want to try
<ogra> there is hope it doesnt eat the 30M that onboard takes
<seb128> I will try to NEW review it today or monday if I fail getting to it today
<cjwatson> Do you think we've hit the second memory target on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Nexus7/raring-targets ?
<ogra> why is instant on striked out there ?
<ogra> resume is pretty instant here
<cjwatson> it links to an open bug
<cjwatson> which is actually more about slow suspend
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> well, i havent run a desktop with FF and TB running yet
<ogra> not sure if that runs well within 1G
<ogra> without TB i'm 100% positive we have hit that target
<ogra> the desktop seems to have a spike hwen starting though
<ogra> i dont see the 3-400M right after start, it spikes above that
<ogra> there is probably still work to do
<ogra> else i would have said we even have the 3rd marker
<seb128> there are still quite some processes that run and could be not running
<seb128> we will get another set of improvement when upstart for session lands
<ogra> we're pretty close to the 3rd marker for battery life too i think
<ogra> seb128, yeah, to me it looks more like there are processes started that then shut down after a while
<seb128> ogra, that's orthogonal, but yeah we have a bit of run and exit on idle
<seb128> e.g oneconf does that
<ogra> right, but that keeps us bunmping above the 512M
<ogra> even though it goes down again
<cjwatson> ogra: Have we hit the first two battery markers?
<ogra> we're at least close since the interactive governor behaves
<ogra> i think there is still room for improvement (afaik android uses a userspace process to dynamically adjust the governor settings, i'll look into that)
<ogra> X definitely keeps us above 1% though
<ogra> (i hev never tested the standby battery life, i use my device to often for testing 150h)
<ogra> oh, i forgot to mention, we have a default usbnet connection on the USB wire now ... additionally to the serial console
<ogra> that was actually a change requested, tested and submitted from the community :)
<ogra> heh
 * ogra hasnt noticed "Play a youtube video of a cat" in the third marker before
<ogra> anything else from anyone ?
<seb128> not really
<ogra> hmm, seems we'Re done then
<seb128> I will try to send a summary email from things that got done this week to ubuntu-devel@
<ogra> great !
<seb128> just to share the good news
 * ogra hugs seb128 
 * seb128 hugs ogra back
<ogra> so lets close this then and enjoy the weekend :)
<seb128> I will also try to set up a proper agenda for the meeting next week
<ogra> going once ...
<seb128> works for me
<seb128> thanks ogra!
<ogra> going twice
<seb128> thanks everyone
<ogra> done ...
<ogra> #ednmeeting
<ogra> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Feb  1 16:25:58 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-01-16.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-01-16.00.html
<ogra> bah
<ogra> thanks!
<bobweaver> Hello all
<mhall119> hello
<CrestedNewt> YO!! Bobweaver
<tgm4883> o/
<mhall119> who wants to chair this meeting?
<bobweaver> I do not
<mhall119> CrestedNewt: you want to give it a go?
<CrestedNewt> I'll give it a go - no idea's how though :D
<CrestedNewt> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Feb  1 18:05:06 2013 UTC.  The chair is CrestedNewt. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<mhall119> CrestedNewt: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology has all the commands
<mhall119> bobweaver: tgm4883: do you guys have specific topics?
<tgm4883> nope
<CrestedNewt> mhall119 - will check that in a inute
<bobweaver> nothing to crazy
<rewarp> I have a question about writing style guidelines. Non-programmer here.
<bobweaver> mhall119,  ^^
<CrestedNewt> OK, before we go there rewarp, lets just cover where we are
<mhall119> ok, let's quickly give an update on the mythtv and front-end work, then we'll get to questions
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - what has been happening?
<bobweaver> It is 100% pluged in
<bobweaver> I just finshed guide
<mhall119> CrestedNewt: #topic Front-end updates
<CrestedNewt> #topic Front-end updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Front-end updates
<CrestedNewt> thx :D
<bobweaver> that holds real data that one can use and preview what is in each thing
<mhall119> np
<bobweaver> if it is recording or also set up recording
<mhall119> bobweaver: I had a question about the front-end you've been working on
<bobweaver> this is just temp
<mhall119> you have settings for different layouts, icon-view, listview, coverflow
<mhall119> shouldn't those be declared by the Category in the Lens?
<bobweaver> as I want to have all of the different things for tgm4883  scope for future
<bobweaver> in the future all things myth will be controled by tgm4883  scope unless we need dire things
<bobweaver> if that is ok with tgm
 * tgm4883 nods
<bobweaver> for knnow it querys the backend and reads the xml and renders to screen
<bobweaver> it is like what mhall119  is talking about
<mhall119> bobweaver: do you have a screenshot of the guide?
<bobweaver> No
<mhall119> ok
<bobweaver> will not go public till 3 things on G+ go
<bobweaver> that is one of them
<mhall119> bobweaver: we got a design spec a while back, do you remember if it govers how the guide should look?
<bobweaver> but pm me mhall119  and I will pass you example code
<mhall119> ok
<bobweaver> yeah
<bobweaver> you question about frontend
<bobweaver> mhall119,  ^^
<bobweaver> Yes the lens can do that already
<bobweaver> but the user can also do this
<mhall119> ok, so it's a user override?
<bobweaver> Like the user can set up in his lens that he is using Channel render
<bobweaver> it is now living on dbus
<bobweaver> in unity
<bobweaver> well
<bobweaver> unity2d
<mhall119> ok
<mhall119> any other front-end updates
<mhall119> ?
<bobweaver> I can not remeber what I called the glib
<mhall119> I've seen you posting a lot of videos
<bobweaver> yeah I have made david calle lens for
<bobweaver> news and also for torrents stock and only call them when needed
<bobweaver> this has cut down ram 1/2
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver, so when you say that the user can change the lens, is that to remove channels that aren't wanted?
<bobweaver> so lens are not listening all the time unless it i needed but that is all going to change in about 3 or 5 weeks
<mhall119> bobweaver: you might be interested in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SmartScopes1304Spec as well
<bobweaver> mhall119,  yeah I looked at that
<mhall119> which is going to keep scope processes from running all the time
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  the "catagory let me take screenshot "
<CrestedNewt> ok
<mhall119> the good news is that the Dash "Home" will now be an actual scope, not hard-coded into the Dash
<bobweaver> http://imagebin.org/245076
<bobweaver> I have also cleaned up the code massivly
<bobweaver> and made a who;e new framework for qt5
<bobweaver> whole *
<bobweaver> any more things on front end for me ?
<mhall119> a framework for what?
<bobweaver> Phone
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver - superb looking!
<mhall119> I don't follow
<bobweaver> like removing all the c++ stuff for backend
<bobweaver> for a explaintion of that size we are going to have to do G+
<bobweaver> sorry google hangout
<bobweaver> next time
<mhall119> ok, another time
<CrestedNewt> ok - so we need to sort out a G hangout at some stage
<mhall119> shall we move on to MyTV updates?
<bobweaver> mhall119,  feel free to ping me after thi and we can do a hangout if you like
<mhall119> bobweaver: ok
<bobweaver> sounds good
<CrestedNewt> #topic MyTV updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MyTV updates
<CrestedNewt> OK where are we?
<mhall119> tgm4883: I saw you posted a video of it in action, thanks for that
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  and I have been talking about his awesome scope
<tgm4883> it's being packaged
<bobweaver> I am pacakging his old on <12.04
<tgm4883> I'm running into issues today with it not starting for some reason
<bobweaver> the one that I use on my TV
<mhall119> tgm4883: I saw that your Dee bug is being worked on
<tgm4883> yep
<mhall119> hopefully that will be in 12.04's backports soon
<bobweaver> anything else ?
<mhall119> bobweaver: once that's packaged, are you going to put it in the PPA with the packages you made for the ubuntu-fr team?
<bobweaver> nope u2t
<bobweaver> which is when that goes stable
<mhall119> are there unity2d TV packages in there?
<bobweaver> yeah it is all one big metapackae
<bobweaver> package
<mhall119> and what versions of Ubuntu does it support?
<bobweaver> 12.04
<mhall119> ok
<CrestedNewt> superb - LTS is good
<bobweaver> And I am not moving from that at all
<mhall119> why not?
<bobweaver> but if someone else wants to....
<bobweaver> because I am going to use Phone
<bobweaver> and because I love qml
<mhall119> for >12.04?
<bobweaver> we will see mhall119
<bobweaver> that all depends on future
<mhall119> is there anything technical that would stop us from making those packages available on 12.10 or 13.04?
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver, so you are going to use the Phone OS for TV?
<mhall119> CrestedNewt: the shell parts of the Phone are in QML
<bobweaver> for now because there is no unity 2d on >12.04 I am not going to move it up because I can not do all the cool things that I can do in qml qith Nux this is because this is just me
<tgm4883> I still need someone to explain to me why previews from 12.10 don't work in Ubuntu TV
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt, I will be using what Is in front of me but yes it will run on the phone
<CrestedNewt> mhall119 - thx for that
<bobweaver> sure tgm4883
<mhall119> tgm4883: because the Previews API was never implemented in Unity 2d
<bobweaver> the way that I have coded the previews for unity 2d it just reads from the lens
<bobweaver> there is no catagorys to add to them
<bobweaver> though I could make them
<bobweaver> but that is a waste of my time as 1) I have something that is awesome
<mhall119> bobweaver: you've implemented the Previews API?
<bobweaver> 2)  I want to make Phone and it togeather
<bobweaver> mhall119,  yes
<mhall119> ok
<bobweaver> there are now previews in Ubuntu TV
<mhall119> cool
<bobweaver> for almost everything
<mhall119> for any scope that provides it?
<bobweaver> yeah just reads things like uri
<bobweaver> cat mimeType
<bobweaver> ect
<bobweaver> anything that one is passing to unity in lens/scope
<mhall119> bobweaver: in 12.10 there was a new API introduced to provide more data for Previews
<mhall119> http://developer.ubuntu.com/api/ubuntu-12.10/python/Unity-6.0.html#Unity.Preview
<mhall119> that's what I was asking about
<bobweaver> not that far yet
<mhall119> ok
<bobweaver> I do not want to hack that deep ^^ which should also anwser tgm4883  question
<bobweaver> until we get phone
<mhall119> ok
<bobweaver> then what ever that is using to talk to Unity I will be using that
<mhall119> makes sense
<bobweaver> which I am sure all that is going to be AWESOME !
<mhall119> well we're half way through our hour, should we move on to Q&A?
<CrestedNewt> OK
<bobweaver> good call
<CrestedNewt> #topic Q&A
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Q&A
<mhall119> rewarp: you had a question?
<rewarp> Yes.
<rewarp> I did some corrections for the spellingcheck branch.
<rewarp> And I was wondering whether there were any official writing guidelines I could base my edits on.
<rewarp> I edited the document based upon my academic training, so it may not be suitable for a UI.
<mhall119> not that I know of
<bobweaver> which is awesome btw rewarp  and I approved your branch for merged
<rewarp> Thanks. I did some Googling and found this guideline on lp: https://dev.launchpad.net/UserInterfaceWording
<rewarp> And Canonical's styleguide: https://dev.launchpad.net/UserInterfaceWording/CanonicalStyleGuide
<tgm4883> omg, i don't want your stupid landline service comcast, leave me alone!
<mhall119> I didn't even know we had that
<mhall119> tgm4883: ?
<bobweaver> lol
<bobweaver> tellie
<CrestedNewt> lol is right :D
<tgm4883> people calling me
<tgm4883> bah
<CrestedNewt> ok - lets get back on track
<bobweaver> good call ^^
<tgm4883> it's like, I know more about your service than you do. leave me alone
<tgm4883> ok
<mhall119> so, bobweaver, do you have any guidelines or anything you think should be followed for the UI text?
<mhall119> or just anything that looks and sounds good
<bobweaver> Well I am the worse person to do spell chacking
<rewarp> There is this line in the lp guidelines: Buttons should be Headline Case; the last word capitalized, and all other words capitalized except those three letters or fewer that are prepositions, articles, or conjunctions.
<bobweaver> I told him about what the things like \t and \n do and He understood it real well
<CrestedNewt> bobweaver, do I understand that rewarp is helping take some of the strain away from you?
<mhall119> rewarp: it seems you're move of an expert on this than the rest of us, so I think we'll follow your lead here
<bobweaver> correct and he is doing a great job
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  ^^
<CrestedNewt> GJ rewarp!
<mhall119> thanks for your contributions rewarp, they are very much appreciated
<rewarp> Thanks. And you are welcome.
<bobweaver> rewarp,  how about this
<rewarp> I have always wanted to contribute something back to the project.
<bobweaver> you set the rules for now
<CrestedNewt> Are there any other area's that you can help bobweaver with?
<bobweaver> and if we get yelled at we will change
<rewarp> I am not sure. Not much programming experience.
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  I put a thing up on g+ looking for help and there are now 2 people
<mhall119> \o/
<bobweaver> which is also right you all should join the temp team that I made for this
<CrestedNewt> YIPEE!!
<bobweaver> rewarp,  apply to join lp~u2t
<CrestedNewt> superb bobweaver - do you have a framework setup for who is doing what?
<rewarp> Okay bobweaver.
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  not yet I have some blue prints and also bugs
<bobweaver> that is what I am hoping will happen more but I am not good at stuff like that
<CrestedNewt> OK but there is a starting point - will PM you later
<bobweaver> would be cool if we could find a different person that can tell people what to do
<bobweaver> "when you dont ask you dont expect "
<bobweaver> :P
<mhall119> a project manager of sorts?
<bobweaver> correct
<CrestedNewt> Well if I knew more I would be happy to oblige
<tgm4883> I'll tell people what to do
<bobweaver> we should add that to do
<bobweaver> ok
<bobweaver> I have a idea
<mhall119> CrestedNewt: can you #topic General Discussion
<CrestedNewt> #topic General Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: General Discussion
<mhall119> thanks
<bobweaver> we have 20 min left after this we can do google hangout and I will tell you all what I need or am doing if you like
<mhall119> bobweaver: I won't be available for a hangout right away
<CrestedNewt> would love to but for me it will be short as it is dinner time here
<mhall119> or maybe not at all today....depending on my other work
<mhall119> bobweaver: tgm4883: Can you guys go through the work items on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-r-tv-development and update them?
<mhall119> bobweaver: I know most of yours are blocked until the phone shell is released
<bobweaver> mhall119,  I would like to keep all the stuff on u2t
<bobweaver> let me get thouse links
<bobweaver> untill phone that is &^^&
<bobweaver> Daily PPA for U2t (ubuntu tv proto)   https://launchpad.net/~u2t/+archive/bleedingedge
<bobweaver> Team :  https://launchpad.net/~u2t
<mhall119> bobweaver: that blueprint is being tracked as part of Raring's progress though, so we need to keep it up to date as well
<bobweaver> Project page   https://launchpad.net/u2t
<bobweaver> good point mhall119
<bobweaver> Bugs:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/u2t
<bobweaver> blue Prints : https://bugs.launchpad.net/u2t
<CrestedNewt> OK, for TV to be taken seriously, as much as I hate saying this, the progress and documentation must be kept up to date
<bobweaver> mhall119,  can we medge things and what not like say that this effects this also ?
<CrestedNewt> I hate documentation like any IT person
<bobweaver> CrestedNewt,  you are right about that
<mhall119> bobweaver: in blueprints?
<tgm4883> I disagree
<bobweaver> mhall119,  yeah
<mhall119> bobweaver: I don't know, it can do some dependency stuff, but I'm not real familiar with it
<tgm4883> for TV to be taken seriously, we need to actually have something someone can use
<CrestedNewt> that is also very true
<bobweaver> how many of you have tried the daily in VM ?
<CrestedNewt> I haven't
<mhall119> not me, do you have a written guide for getting it setup that way?
<bobweaver> I think that you should before you say that we have nothing that works
<tgm4883> mhall119, where should I be defining this stuff
<tgm4883> bobweaver, I'm pretty confident I didn't say that
<bobweaver> sorry tgm4883  s|you|we
<mhall119> tgm4883: defining which, a guide to getting it running in a VM?
<tgm4883> mhall119, no, my blueprint stuff
<tgm4883> Define what data needs to be passed between Scopes and Renderers
<tgm4883> Define what lenses and scopes will be used
<mhall119> tgm4883: at the bottom of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/community-r-tv-development there is a "Work Items" section
<tgm4883> mhall119, yes, I know
<bobweaver> I think the hardest part is going to be getting people to set up there myth
<tgm4883> what I mean is
<mhall119> just change the bit at the end to "DONE, BLOCKED or INPROGRESS"
<tgm4883> where should I define what data needs to be passed between scopes and renderers?
<tgm4883> a wiki page?
<tgm4883> in an email to bobweaver
<tgm4883> etc?
<mhall119> oh, that
<mhall119> tgm4883: yeah, a wiki page would be good
<mhall119> tgm4883: you can make a sub-page on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuTV
<bobweaver> something that we should think about docs for what kinda capture cards are cheap and also work with kernel OFB and
<bobweaver> Like a recomended stuff like that
<tgm4883> OFB?
<bobweaver> out of box
<tgm4883> OOB
<CrestedNewt> minimum spec requirements should do, or not?
<mhall119> can people test capture cards running this from a VM?
<mhall119> or would it have to be installed natively
<tgm4883> mhall119, some
<tgm4883> mhall119, depends on the VM software
<mhall119> maybe we can make a table on the wiki where people can fill in their experience with different cards
<CrestedNewt> thats a superb idea !
<tgm4883> mhall119, there are only 2 types of cards that we should worry about
<tgm4883> DVB, and HDHomerun
<tgm4883> inside of DVB, good luck making recommendations that work around the world
<tgm4883> I say we pick a few recommended cards in a few major markets and stick with that
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  me or you can make video about installing or should we target usb ones .
<tgm4883> or just point people at the mythtv wiki and/or linux tv wiki
<bobweaver> pci or usb
<tgm4883> ethernet?
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - there may be others as well.... There are so many different formats out there that need to be tested in each region/country
<tgm4883> CrestedNewt, no, DVB or HDHomerun
<tgm4883> DVB has subtypes (eg. DVB-C, DVB-S, DVB-T)
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - ok
<tgm4883> but the two major types of cards are DVB and HDHomerun
<tgm4883> I have stats to back that up
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  can you talk more about that ^^
<bobweaver> like hdhomerun
<tgm4883> more about what part?
<mhall119> I'm +1 for referring to upstream wikis if they already have that info and it's accurate for UbuntuTV
<tgm4883> mhall119, nothing is accurate for Ubuntu TV, it needs to be accurate to Ubuntu + MythTV
<bobweaver> I can google after this but I know you know a bunch of good stuff
<tgm4883> yes I do :)
<bobweaver> :/
<tgm4883> we're running out of time here though
<bobweaver> like why thous 2
<tgm4883> bobweaver, those two types cover ~85% of the market
<CrestedNewt> tgm4883 - lol - we have 5 mins so lets wrap this up or move to #ubuntu-tv and finnish there
<mhall119> ok, so tgm4883 are you going ot start a new wiki page for hardware compatibility?
<mhall119> and also one for the guide data model?
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  that is the perfect reason !!
<tgm4883> mhall119, I did, it's at http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Category:Hardware
<bobweaver> thanks n
<mhall119> tgm4883: ok
<tgm4883> mhall119, I mean, it might be better for us to have a custom google search of the mythtv wiki on one of our pages
<tgm4883> but yea, the world is big so people are just going to have to look if they don't live in a major market
<CrestedNewt> OK, so we are decided on just these 2 types of card. We need to wrap this up now in reality
<tgm4883> I can make recommendations on USA and Canada, and maybe the UK
<tgm4883> but outside of those countries, it's "find a card for whatever standard you have and see if it is supported"
<bobweaver> tgm4883,  maybe we can do a hangout and we can explain all this
<mhall119> alright, anything else we need to discuss before ending the meeting?
<tgm4883> really, we should just pick a card for each type HDHomerun, HDHomerun-CC, DVB-S, DVB-SII, DVB-T, DVB-T
<CrestedNewt> OK ladies and gents, lets end this meeting here and move to more details in the tv channel
<tgm4883> ok
<bobweaver> later in the week that is tgm4883
<bobweaver> cool
<rewarp> Ok. Thanks everyone.
<mhall119> CrestedNewt: thanks for chairing it
<CrestedNewt> been productive guys
<tgm4883> mhall119, I'm going to bug you about some scope stuff probably
<CrestedNewt> mhall119 no probslems
<tgm4883> after I look into this a bit more
<CrestedNewt> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Feb  1 18:59:41 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-01-18.05.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-02-01-18.05.html
<mhall119> tgm4883: sure, I'll try and get you some docs on the upcoming stuff
<CrestedNewt> sry guys but I don't like over-runs :D
<mhall119> CrestedNewt: perfect timing according to my clocks
<CrestedNewt> I try :D
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-02-02
<adfghjk> hey
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-02-03
<a11r> please check my new software, i coded it, any advises would be appreciated. ge.tt/api/1/files/52neqJX/0/blob?download
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-27
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 27 16:38:51 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<jdstrand> Thanks to the following people thanks for help on security updates since the last meeting: Johan Van de Wauw (tamrat) provided debdiffs for precise-saucy for mapserver (LP: #1267616), Thomas Ward (TheLordOfTime) provided debdiffs for raring for znc (LP: #1268658), Felix Geyer (debfx) provided debdiffs for Precise, Quantal, Saucy for quassel (LP: #1255362). Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1267616 in mapserver (Ubuntu Saucy) "Possible SQL Injections with postgis TIME filters" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1267616
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1268658 in znc (Ubuntu Trusty) "Null pointer dereference in webadmin module [CVE-2013-2130]" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1268658
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1255362 in quassel (Ubuntu Trusty) "Clients may be able to access buffers belonging to other users" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1255362
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Review of any previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review of any previous action items
<jdstrand> [ACTION] chrisccoulson to benchmark oxide and qtwebkit once armhf builds work
<meetingology> ACTION: chrisccoulson to benchmark oxide and qtwebkit once armhf builds work
<jdstrand> [ACTION] chrisccoulson to send results of benchmarks to list
<meetingology> ACTION: chrisccoulson to send results of benchmarks to list
<jdstrand> aiui, these are both blocked on usable IM in oxide, which is blocked on qt5.2 which is blocked on the frameworks discussions
<jdstrand> however, we just determined that we may be able to use https://launchpad.net/~canonical-qt5-edgers/+archive/qt5-beta2 for this
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: that pretty much captures that discussion, right?
<chrisccoulson> it does
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: would it be too optimistic to hope for working IM usiong that ppa this week?
<chrisccoulson> it should be possible, especially now I can build much faster
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: ok, I'd like to keep those as actions then. the benchmarking itself should go quickly I would think once IM is there
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: if there is a problem with benchmark performance, we may be able to get phonedations to help
<jdstrand> I am going to take an action to update people on this
<chrisccoulson> cool :)
<jdstrand> [ACTION] follow-up on list regarding status of oxide benchmarks and why they are blocked
<meetingology> ACTION: follow-up on list regarding status of oxide benchmarks and why they are blocked
<jdstrand> [ACTION] jdstrand to follow-up on list regarding status of oxide benchmarks and why they are blocked
<meetingology> ACTION: jdstrand to follow-up on list regarding status of oxide benchmarks and why they are blocked
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> I've got some pending openstack updates to work on-- but I'm having to more or less write the patches myself for earlier releases, so it has been slow going
<jdstrand> I have quite a bit of sprint preparation to do for next week
<jdstrand> if time allows, I'll try to get to some work items, but am guessing that will have to wait for next week
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> I'll be publishing some USNs, and will be once again going down the list
<mdeslaur> I'm off on Wednesday
<mdeslaur> and that's about it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<jdstrand> tyhicks: why don't you go next and sbeattie can give status later
<tyhicks> ok
<jdstrand> (also, jj is out for the meeting)
<tyhicks> I'm looking into an ecryptfs bug at the moment (LP: #1265841)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1265841 in linux (Ubuntu) "kernel BUG at /build/buildd/linux-3.11.0/fs/buffer.c:1268!; RIP: 0010:[<ffffffff816e3efd>] [<ffffffff816e3efd>] check_irqs_on.part.11+0x4/0x6" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1265841
<tyhicks> I'll be mainly working on that and hacking on kdbus again this week
<tyhicks> probably a little prep for the sprint, as welll
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<jdstrand> question
<tyhicks> ok
<jdstrand> sorry I keep asking about this-- what is going on with yama?
<jdstrand> (on touch)
<tyhicks> jdstrand: I've wasted way too much time trying to test it on the emulator
<tyhicks> jdstrand: as of Friday, the emulator segfaults when running unity8 autopilot tests
<jdstrand> hrmm, sorry about that
<tyhicks> jdstrand: I was hoping to talk jjohansen into letting me use one of his devices next week at the sprint to test it
<jdstrand> so, are you able to run it on hardware?
<jdstrand> ok, that seems reasonable
<tyhicks> all of the dev work is done and has been for a long time
<tyhicks> I just don't have a way to run the autopilot tests
<jdstrand> yeah
 * jdstrand nods
<tyhicks> I thought getting a cheap maguro would help me test this (along with other touch landings)
<jdstrand> I think testing on real hardware and then coordinating with ogasawara for a pull request then landing will hopefully be fine at this point
<jdstrand> if the emulator is busted for doing our tests, we can't be expected to use it
<tyhicks> but it runs the old kernel version that we're not backporting to :/
<tyhicks> I tried running with ubuntu-emulator and with the older emulator set up using xnox's test scripts
<tyhicks> ubuntu-emulator segfaults and the test scripts eventually hang because the emulator dies at some point
<tyhicks> oh, and that's without the yama backport patches... so they're not at fault
<tyhicks> I was just trying to get a baseline
<tyhicks> ok, that's it for me
 * jdstrand nods
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm on community this week
<jdstrand> we'll test on real hardware and try to get you unblocked
<tyhicks> thanks :)
<sarnold> I've got some libotr patches from debfx to test and release this week, several MIRs, reviewing serge's new cgmanager (nearly done, one file left!), and then sprint preparation (looking into the profile loading more deeply)
<sarnold> I suspect it isn't all going to get done before the end of the week
<sarnold> I think that's me, are we going back to chrisccoulson or on to jdstrand again? (I missed the start..)
<chrisccoulson> hi :)
<chrisccoulson> this week i'll be looking at some of the oxide bugs that are blocking having a usable browser on the device
<jdstrand> tyhicks: oh, chrisccoulson has a manta that I'm sure he's bringing next week
<chrisccoulson> last week i switched oxide to cmake, and made cross-compiling work :)
<jdstrand> tyhicks: so maybe quick popping a kernel in there and testing on it would be ok
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: I'd really appreciate it if I could (ab)use it for a day
<tyhicks> yep
<chrisccoulson> the bad news is that next week is firefox release week. perfect timing ;)
<tyhicks> ah
<chrisccoulson> so i'll probably be trying to get that out of the way at the end of this week
<tyhicks> well I can ask jj later
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: argh :\
<mdeslaur> chrisccoulson: ugh :(
<chrisccoulson> yeah, it's pretty annoying
<chrisccoulson> i wish they could have done the release this week :)
<chrisccoulson> but, oh well :/
<chrisccoulson> i think that's me done
<jdstrand> re cmake: \o/
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/dropbear.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libmodplug.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/aria2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/opensaml2.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/cakephp.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, tyhicks, sarnold, chrisccoulson: thanks!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 27 17:12:26 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-27-16.38.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-27-16.38.html
<tyhicks> thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<tumbleweed> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<micahg> o/
<darkxst> morning
<tumbleweed> I guess it's jsut the two of us
<tumbleweed> my turn to chair, I think
<tumbleweed> well ScottK if he was around...
<tumbleweed> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 27 19:09:23 2014 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<tumbleweed> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<tumbleweed> #subtopic micahg to restructure PPU teams.
<tumbleweed> can we call that all done?
<micahg> ok, so teams restructured, still need to clean up docs
<tumbleweed> ok, I'll modify that item appropriately
<tumbleweed> sigh, we have 3 applications listed as jan 27
<tumbleweed> but Noskcaj is happening by e-mail
<tumbleweed> so
<tumbleweed> oh, not 3
<micahg> I only see 2 people
<tumbleweed> #topic darkxst's MOTU & Ubuntu Gnome applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: darkxst's MOTU & Ubuntu Gnome applications
<tumbleweed> we might as well discuss them together
<tumbleweed> and then vote on them separately
<tumbleweed> darkxst: care to introduce your application?
 * tumbleweed grabs a beer
<darkxst> hi, I am the technical lead and main developer for Ubuntu GNOME
<darkxst> I have been involved with ubuntu GNOME since the start, so trusty will be our 3rd official release now
<darkxst> I mostly work on the GNOME stack, and also work closely with the desktop team, since there is quite some overlap there
<tumbleweed> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimLunn/PPUApplication
<tumbleweed> sorry, been reading
<tumbleweed> so, obviously the best starting point for questions are everything that you and your endorsers consider to be problem areas
<tumbleweed> you mention wanting to push more to Debian
<tumbleweed> how involved are you with the Debian GNOME team?
<darkxst> right now not really involved at all, they do however pick up much of our work from the gnome3 PPA's though
<tumbleweed> so, I'm not intimiately familiar with ubuntu gnome
<tumbleweed> you prepare things in a PPA, and upload them to the release when ready?
<darkxst> yes, we have the gnome3-team PPA's where we stage things
<tumbleweed> is the PPA still enabled in release images?
<darkxst> typically packages will bake there for a cycle
<darkxst> no the PPA is not in the release at all
<tumbleweed> ah, that's quite a while
<tumbleweed> great, I remember it was i nthe early days. But I'm not paying enough attention any more
<darkxst> since ubuntu is a cycle behind GNOME
<micahg> PPAs on release images is a no-no...
<tumbleweed> well, yes
<tumbleweed> how much friction is there between the gnome and Unity communities in ubuntu, these days?
<tumbleweed> Laney's endorsement points out both things that went well, and badly, when updating the gnome stack
<darkxst> the ubuntu devs tend to get annoyed at the changes GNOME make
<darkxst> and GNOME can be a little inconsiderate when it comes to backwards compatibility
<tumbleweed> yeah
<darkxst> but generally upstream GNOME have been helpful in fixing ubuntu integration issues
<tumbleweed> that's good to hear
<tumbleweed> darkxst: lots of the endorsers talked about joining the ubuntu-desktop team
<tumbleweed> is that something you'd want to do in the future?
<darkxst> potentially, although I have wondered if the whole convergence thing would limit my usefulness there
<tumbleweed> yeah, I get the feeling that ubuntu-desktop is becoming more of the "GNOME bits of the desktop"
<tumbleweed> darkxst: have you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<darkxst> tumbleweed, yes
<tumbleweed> \o/
<darkxst> Mir/Unity8 wont leave much GNOME there really
<darkxst> although I suppose the core bits aren't going anywhere (glib, g-i, gtk etc)
<micahg> darkxst: so, you talk about patch quality in what you don't like about Ubuntu, do you have any ideas on improvement?
<darkxst> certainly have hit bugs in quite a few ubuntu patches, that possibly would have been avoided by a proper code review
<micahg> is this a problem with sponsors not reviewing patches or are we referring more to something only an upstream would catch?
<darkxst> not sure how to improve it though, sponsorship can already be quite slow
<darkxst> yes, I suspect its largely sponsors not reviewing patches properly
<tumbleweed> I assume there's also a component of "let's fix this issue with a quick hack"
<darkxst> not sure how to improve it though, sponsorship already takes long enough generally
<darkxst> indeed, there would be plenty of patches like that
<tumbleweed> what would you do as a sponsor, to reduce this problem?
<micahg> well, sponsors should be aware of what they should and should not be uploading, if that's not happening, please either reply to the upload message to ubuntu-devel and start a discussion, or if you don't feel appropriate doing that, you can send a mail to developer-memebership-board@l.u.c (or anyone for that matter can)
<micahg> well, only send to ubuntu-devel if it's more of a teachable moment
<darkxst> I would review the patches, obviously
<tumbleweed> or public shaming seems appropriate :P
<micahg> haha
<darkxst> micahg, there things tend to pop up well down the track
<micahg> yeah, also, we're only human, mistakes will happen, we can try to mitigate them with checks and balances
<tumbleweed> darkxst: so, you're applying for upload rights to a seeded packageset
<tumbleweed> what do you need to keep in mind when uploading these packages?
<darkxst> well firstly freezes will affect all seeded packages
<tumbleweed> which freezes are we talking about?
<darkxst> alpha beta freezes
<darkxst> also would make sure my uploads don't affect other users
<tumbleweed> so, what can you upload during the freeze?
<tumbleweed> and what do you not upload?
<darkxst> unseeded packages can upload
<Noskcaj> o/
<tumbleweed> and which seeded ones?
<darkxst> critical bug fixes etc
<darkxst> with release team approval
<tumbleweed> the concern here is usually anything that affects images
<tumbleweed> how do you tell what images something is on?
<darkxst> seeded-in-ubuntu
<tumbleweed> \o/
<tumbleweed> ok, let's talk about the other kinds of freezes
<tumbleweed> what's reasonable to upload after FF?
<darkxst> nothing that introduces new features, so essentially bug fixes only
<darkxst> so for stable GNOME release can upload new point release ie. 3.10.3
<tumbleweed> have you filed FFes before?
<darkxst> yes I have filed a few FFe's
<tumbleweed> one (I think last) question from me: almost all your uploads have been for GNOMEy things. So why the MOTU application?
<darkxst> there are alot of GNOMEy packages in universe that are not in Ubuntu GNOME images
<tumbleweed> pretty much what I expected
<tumbleweed> OK, time to call a vote
<darkxst> also for example when doing transitions (cogl/clutter etc), I could help out with the universe part of that
<tumbleweed> that's true
<tumbleweed> #vote Grant darkxst upload rights to the (as yet empty) Ubuntu GNOME packageset
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant darkxst upload rights to the (as yet empty) Ubuntu GNOME packageset
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> We also received +1s by e-mail from stgraber, laney, and barry
<tumbleweed> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant darkxst upload rights to the (as yet empty) Ubuntu GNOME packageset
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<tumbleweed> #vote Grant darkxst MOTU membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant darkxst MOTU membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<micahg> +0 I'd like to see a bit more work with a variety of packages, but good work thusfar
<meetingology> +0 I'd like to see a bit more work with a variety of packages, but good work thusfar received from micahg
<tumbleweed> +1 [ no visible experience outside GNOME-related packages, but I'm fairly confident this won't be an issue ]
<meetingology> +1 [ no visible experience outside GNOME-related packages, but I'm fairly confident this won't be an issue ] received from tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> we also received +0 from stgraber and barry, +1 from laney
<tumbleweed> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant darkxst MOTU membership
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<tumbleweed> I'm afraid 2 +1s isn't sufficient for this motion to pass
<micahg> darkxst: do you know if Ubuntu GNOME is a superset of desktop-extra?
<micahg> or was intended to be
<tumbleweed> and if not, we should consider you for it
<tumbleweed> I think we even have enough votes to do that, now
<darkxst> I don't know, but certainly many or most ubuntu GNOME packages are in that set
<tumbleweed> micahg: shall we take the vote, as it's perfectly harmless, if it is a superset
<micahg> sure
<tumbleweed> actually
<tumbleweed> ubuntu-gnome will be a seed-driven packageset
<tumbleweed> so it surely won't be a superset
<micahg> well, they can add stuff to supported
<tumbleweed> that's true
<tumbleweed> #vote Grant darkxst upload rights to the desktop-extra packageset
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant darkxst upload rights to the desktop-extra packageset
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<tumbleweed> +1 [ seems a no-brainer, considering the other votes ]
<meetingology> +1 [ seems a no-brainer, considering the other votes ] received from tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> we also got a +1 by e-mail from Laney and stgraber
<tumbleweed> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant darkxst upload rights to the desktop-extra packageset
<meetingology> Votes for:2 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<tumbleweed> which means that motion was passed
<tumbleweed> darkxst: congratulations :)
<tumbleweed> If you have any interest in MOTU outside of desktop-extra packages, I suggest doing some wider MOTU work to show that
<tumbleweed> we'd welcome a re-application in a few months
<tumbleweed> #topic any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: any other business
<tumbleweed> # subtopic next meeting
<tumbleweed> chair: ScottK
<tumbleweed> date: 10 Feb, 15:00 UTC
<tumbleweed> # subtopic election time
<tumbleweed> barry, micahg, and I all expire on 12/13 Feb
<tumbleweed> I guess one of the other team members should run the election
<tumbleweed> and start it ASAP
<tumbleweed> micahg: anything else?
 * Noskcaj ?
<tumbleweed> ah, yes
<darkxst> thanks
<tumbleweed> #subtopic e-mail applications
<tumbleweed> wgrants has a quorate number of votes, but hasn't seen votes from bdrung or ScottK
<tumbleweed> pocock's has one vote from Laney. bdrung, barry, micahg, ScottK, stgraber, and tumbleweed need to vote
<tumbleweed> we need to call for votes on Noskcaj's application. assuming no more questions
<tumbleweed> that's the lot
<tumbleweed> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 27 20:13:05 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-27-19.09.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-27-19.09.html
<micahg> darkxst: congratulations
<micahg> tumbleweed: thanks
<darkxst> micahg, thanks ;)
<micahg> tumbleweed: also, I don't expire but my DMB membership does
<tumbleweed> :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-01-28
<yolanda_> hi there, i'll be chairing today, let's wait for a pair of minutes to start
<jamespage> o/
<rbasak> \o
<yolanda_> so  lets start
<yolanda_> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 28 16:03:33 2014 UTC.  The chair is yolanda_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<rharper> o/
<yolanda_> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<yolanda_> so... agenda doesn't seem to be updated, any pending topics?
<arosales> o/
<yolanda_> anything to comment there?
<smoser> o/
<yolanda_> nothing? i will be moving to next point
<yolanda_> #topic Trusty Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Trusty Development
<yolanda_> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TrustyTahr/ReleaseSchedule
<yolanda_> how is that progressing?
<yolanda_> any comments about it?
<yolanda_> jamespage, smoser ^
<jamespage> yolanda_, sorry - binging not on
<smoser> feature freeze is coming.
<smoser> be aware of that.
<jamespage> yolanda_, indeed
<yolanda_> feature freeze on february
<yolanda_> so, let's look at bugs
<yolanda_> #subtopic Release Bugs
<yolanda_> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-t-tracking-bug-tasks.html#server
<yolanda_> http://launchpad.net/bugs/1243076
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1243076 in mod-auth-mysql (Ubuntu Trusty) "libapache2-mod-auth-mysql is missing in 13.10 amd64" [High,Confirmed]
<yolanda_> any progress on that?
<yolanda_> next one ... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nova/+bug/1062336
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1062336 in nova (Ubuntu Trusty) "nova-compute expects libvirtd group" [High,Triaged]
<yolanda_> jamesepage, i see this is a won't fix ?
<jamespage> I think its done
<jamespage> yes
<jamespage> marked as so
<jamespage> forgot to reference the bug btlot
<yolanda_> bug report isn't refreshing properly then?
<yolanda_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/maas/+bug/1248283
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1248283 in juju-core (Ubuntu Trusty) "Juju deploy of Charm in MAAS fails because dbus fails" [High,Triaged]
<yolanda_> anything about that?
<yolanda_> next one ... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/horizon/+bug/1259166
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1259166 in horizon (Ubuntu Trusty) "Fix lintian error" [High,Triaged]
<yolanda_> zul ^
<zul> nope
<yolanda_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lxc/+bug/1263738
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1263738 in lxc (Ubuntu Trusty) "login console 0 in user namespace container is not configured right" [High,Triaged]
<yolanda_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/horizon/+bug/1198021
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1198021 in horizon (Ubuntu Trusty) "/static apache2 alias should probably be /horizon/static" [Medium,Triaged]
<yolanda_> jamespage, this is a won't fix?
<jamespage> no
<jamespage> we should probably fix that
<yolanda_> we should update bug comments then
<yolanda_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/websockify/+bug/1231970
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 1231970 in websockify (Ubuntu Trusty) "[FFe] nova-novncproxy requires websockify > 0.5 - please sync from unstable" [Medium,Triaged]
<yolanda_> jamespage, that's done?
<jamespage> yes
<jamespage> marked as fix released
<yolanda_> ok, let's continue
<yolanda_> #subtopic Blueprints
<yolanda_> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-t/group/topic-t-servercloud-overview.html
<yolanda_> how are blueprints progressing?
<yolanda_> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-curtin
<smoser> :)
<yolanda_> smoser ^
<smoser> yeah. so that one needs some work.
<yolanda_> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-openstack-charms
<smoser> it is siltl planned for 14.04
<yolanda_> smoser, are you postponing it?
<yolanda_> the curtin one
<smoser> no.
<smoser> it is still planned for 14.04
<gaughen> yolanda_, smoser needs some prodding to update his blueprints ;-)
<smoser> well, he also has to do some work.
<gaughen> :-)
<yolanda_> :)
<smoser> i can update the progress, but unfortunately it wont get the code written.
<yolanda_> next one https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-openstack-charms
<zul> time to crack the whip
<rharper> +1
<yolanda_> i'm currently working on rabbit active/active, lot of work to be done
<yolanda_> jamespage, do you think we are ok with time?
<gaughen> o/
<jamespage> yea
<jamespage> beta-1 is ok
<yolanda_> next one ... https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-ceph
<yolanda_> jamespage ^
<jamespage> all ok
<jamespage> just waiting for firefly to release upstream now
<yolanda_> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-lxc
<jamespage> the fastcgi items will likely disappear at that point as radosgw is going through a re-design to not be mod_fastcgi
<yolanda_> hallyn is not present, so i'll skip this
<yolanda_> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-mysql-alternatives
<yolanda_> jamespage ^
<yolanda_> i see a blocked work item there?
<jamespage> oh - going OK - but some delay on pxc due to licensing issues
<yolanda_> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-cloud-init
<yolanda_> smoser ^
<yolanda_> next one .. https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-openstack
<yolanda_> zul ^
<zul> its fine
<smoser> i'll look at the cloud-init bluerpint now. utlemming an d i have made some progress t
<yolanda_> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-cloud-images
<yolanda_> smoser again
<smoser> same. will take al ook now
<yolanda_> last one
<yolanda_> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-1311-juju
<yolanda_> jamespage ^
<yolanda_> seems mostly done?
<jamespage> ish - we have it building across most archs yet
<jamespage> but I suspect some work todo to support anything other than arm + x86
<yolanda_> ok
<yolanda_> let's change topic
<yolanda_> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<caribou> yolanda_: nothing on my radar today
<yolanda_> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<yolanda_> nothing there?
<psivaa> im in a sprint this week and nothing much to report except:
<psivaa> lamp smoke has one failure and the tomcat server has the same failure in the smoke tests
<yolanda_> ok
<yolanda_> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Not much. Has there been any progress on the sru reviews for iscsitarget and drbd8 for P (or questions I missed). sforshee and me sprinting, too, this week.
<yolanda_> any feedback for smb?
<yolanda_> mm, let's move then
<yolanda_> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<rbasak> No updates from me this week. Any questions?
<yolanda_> so..
<yolanda_> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<yolanda_> Cape Town sprint of course
<yolanda_> anything else?
<rbasak> FOSDEM this weekend
<rbasak> I'll be there, along with marcoceppi.
<yolanda_> nice
<yolanda_> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> Marco is doing a talk on service orchestration, I believe, in the configuration management room.
<yolanda_> anything to comment?
<yolanda_> ok, so let's finishg
<yolanda_> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<yolanda_> should we have meeting next week? smoser, jamespage, gaughen, are in Cape Town
<rbasak> I'd say skip it, unless anyone objects.
<smoser> i think i agree with rbasak
<rbasak> It'll be quite quiet if we do.
<smoser> there is a first time for everything
<smoser> :)
<yolanda_> then, next meeting will be on Tuesday 11th of February
<smoser> yeah, lets re-convene in 14 days.
<smoser> thanks yolanda_
<jamespage> ok
<jamespage> thanks yolanda_
<yolanda_> np
<yolanda_> so let's end here
<yolanda_> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 28 16:37:31 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-28-16.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-01-28-16.03.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-02-02
<Iowan> Who brought the bot keys?
<howefield> tick tock..
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-26
<mdeslaur> \o
<chrisccoulson> o/
 * sbeattie waves
<sarnold> /o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 26 17:08:42 2015 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> hi! :)
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> today I am in the happy place
<jdstrand> err, this week
<jdstrand> today I am helping people address some phone bugs
<jdstrand> hopefully I'll be done with that soon, and I will be working on some snappy designs and planning
<jdstrand> I'm also working on an embargoed issue
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> I just published some updates
<mdeslaur> and plan on working on some more
<mdeslaur> that's about it from me, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I have an embargoed issue that I need to finish testing, and am also working on a binutils update.
<sbeattie> I need to get back on the gcc pie stuff (was looking at HJ Lu's upstream patches)
<sbeattie> And I think I have some apparmor review work outstanding.
<sbeattie> That's it for me. tyhicks, you're it.
<tyhicks> sbeattie: do you think you'll get to the gcc pie stuff with the reactive work you have planned?
<sbeattie> tyhicks: yes, I think so.
<tyhicks> good
<tyhicks> I'm focusing on bug #1362469 today
<ubottu> bug 1362469 in dbus (Ubuntu) "AppArmor unrequested reply protection generates unallowable denials" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1362469
<tyhicks> it will probably take 2 or 3 days out of my week
<tyhicks> I also need to propose a new API for the libapparmor aa_features interface after talking with jj and others in #apparmor
<tyhicks> I have taken the security updates for patch
<tyhicks> but I plan on waiting for some of the dust to settle there
<tyhicks> there are pending CVE assignments on oss-security
 * jdstrand forgot to mention he'd work on openjdk security updates
<tyhicks> and then I will transition to User Data Encryption work items but that'll be late this week at best
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jj is away today
<tyhicks> so it is sarnold's turn
<sarnold> I'm on community this week; it's a short week for me, off thursday and friday
<sarnold> I'm working on a horizon security update that appears to require more backporting effort to precise than is usual for me, though I suspect it's business as usual for openstack updates
<sarnold> so wihle I will probably have trusty-and-newer updates ready to go before I leave, probably not trusty.
<sarnold> s/probably not trusty/probably not precise/
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I'm hoping for no flash updates this week :)
<mdeslaur> hehe
<tyhicks> :)
<chrisccoulson> There will be a firefox update to address a couple of regressions, in particular, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1122445
<ubottu> Mozilla bug 1122445 in DOM: Security "CSP change in behavior regards case sensitivity loading resources" [Major,Resolved: fixed]
<chrisccoulson> I'm also planning to get oxide 1.4 out (today, hopefully)
<chrisccoulson> and then I'll be making a start on https://launchpad.net/oxide/+milestone/branch-1.6
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: does 1.4 contain the media-hub bits?
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<chrisccoulson> tyhicks, it doesn't - that's in 1.5
<tyhicks> ack
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/eet.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/batmand.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/heirloom-mailx.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gksu-polkit.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libcgi-pm-perl.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold, chrisccoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 26 17:28:07 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-26-17.08.moin.txt
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks! :)
<mdeslaur> thanks ty
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-27
<smoser> o/
<coreycb> o/
<caribou> o/
<gaughen> o/
<gnuoy`> o/
<smoser> Chair/Scribe will be: jamespage
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<gaughen> ha! you beat me by .00001 seconds smoser
<smoser> next on the queue would be arges
<jamespage> joy ok
<jamespage> I'm here
<smoser> gaughen, your clock runs slow
<jamespage> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 27 16:03:07 2015 UTC.  The chair is jamespage. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<arges> smoser: what do i need to do?
<gaughen> smoser I don't see arges on the list, I see arosales next
<smoser> tab complete failure
<jamespage> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser> sorry arges
<jamespage> gaughen to establish new qa-team point of contact for server team -- gaughen and beisner discussing - keeping as ACTION point
<jamespage> gaughen, hows that coming on?
<gaughen> it's not really moving. I need to ping Evan again. beisner provided additional on what we are looking for from his team.
<jamespage> ok carry that forward for now then
<jamespage> #action gaughen to establish new qa-team point of contact for server team
<meetingology> ACTION: gaughen to establish new qa-team point of contact for server team
<jamespage> and then I had to
<beisner> o/ hi all
<jamespage> jamespage to answer question in bug 1410363 in response to smb
<ubottu> bug 1410363 in linux (Ubuntu) "partition table updates require a reboot" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1410363
<jamespage> that mysteriously disappeared again - I can't repro atm - if it appears back we'll get smb access
<jamespage> #topic Vivid Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Vivid Development
<jamespage> OK so lets take a look
<jamespage> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<jamespage> we just past alpha2; next milestone is feature freeze on the 19th feb so make sure any major version bumps get in before them
<jamespage> I think we have at least:
<jamespage> mysql 5.6 (rbasak)
<jamespage> and I know I keep harping on about tomcat8 as well
<jamespage> hey rbasak - we where just talking about you :-)
<jamespage>  we just past alpha2; next milestone is feature freeze on the 19th feb so make sure any major version bumps get in before them
<jamespage>  mysql 5.6 (rbasak)
<gaughen> jamespage, was talking to rbasak this morning an d he's a bit worried about making tomcat8 happen
<gaughen> mysql5.6 is well on it's way.
<jamespage> gaughen, sounds like I might have a bit of plane work todo
<jamespage> #subtopic Release Bugs
<jamespage> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-v-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<jamespage> a couple of cloud init bugs (both confirmed and high)
<jamespage> a juju bug for systemd support which I know upstream are working on
<jamespage> a committed heat fix and....
<jamespage> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openvpn/+bug/1385851#
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1385851 in openvpn (Ubuntu Vivid) "OpenVPN only supports TLS v1.0" [Medium,Confirmed]
<gaughen> smoser,  you have a handle on the cloud-init ones?
<smoser> yeah. i'm aware.
<jamespage> anyone have a handle on the openvpn issue?
<jamespage> does everyone know how to get bugs on that report?
<coreycb> no
<jamespage> Hint: raise a vivid task for a bug that the server team has on its list of bugs
<jamespage> you may only be able to nominate depending on permissions - pester a core-dev to get it accepted.
<gaughen> I know a core-dev!
<jamespage> ok  - moving on
<coreycb> thanks
<jamespage> #subtopic Blueprints
<jamespage> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-v/group/topic-v-server.html
<jamespage> wow alot of todo still
<jamespage> gnuoy`, pls can you re-check your work items - 0% is a little worrying.
<jamespage> gnuoy`, maybe the 15.01 release this week is a good checkpoint
<jamespage> rbasak, hows things looking on the general server bluepint?
<jamespage> we talked mysql and tomcat already
<jamespage>  - looks like there are some corosync pacemaker updates we need todo
<rbasak> Yeah.
<gaughen> jamespage, when I talked with rbasak earlier he was worried about the ntp by default item and the dpdk one
<jamespage> rbasak, I have a technical interest in dpdk so would be happy to look  at that if that helps
<rbasak> I realised php5 needed a transition to 5.6 so have thrown it all at vivid-proposed just now to see what sticks.
<jamespage> rbasak, my feel is that its not quite ready for packaging yet
<rbasak> Apart from the concerns gaughen mentioned I think we're in good shape.
<jamespage> rbasak, ack
<jamespage> ok moving on
<jamespage> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<rbasak> jamespage: if you could look at dpdk, that'd be great. I was going to ask kickinz1|afk to take a look but he's unexpectedly away now.
<jamespage> caribou, anything from you this week
<jamespage> ?
<caribou> jamespage: nothing CTS wise but I have just synced makedumpfile with networked kernel dumps
<jamespage> caribou, +1 awesome
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<caribou> I should make a note to have this added to the Release Notes
<jamespage> I guess  we can skip this for now  - unless beisner want to raise anything?
<beisner> pretty much focused on 15.01 openstack charm release this week
<beisner> will review qa/ci team isotracker results and raise any issues found
<jamespage> beisner, great
<jamespage> thanks
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<smb> Nothing specific I know of. I saw smoser mention some resizefs issues on our channel which should get followed up on. Anything else?
<arges> smb: i'm looking at that now. its a userspace issue
<smoser> smb, they're not kernel related. arges i copied ted tso on the bug . :)
<arges> smoser: oh
<arges> cool, even better
<smoser> if we reproduce on debian and forward the bug there, he probably will respond quickly.
<jamespage> I know the kernel team has a 3.13 ovs fix for us to test - we'll plug that into serverstack just as soon as 15.01 charm release is out of the way this week
<jamespage> anything else kernel related
<jamespage> ?
<jamespage> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/openvswitch/+bug/1408972
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1408972 in linux (Ubuntu) "openvswitch: failed to flow_del (No such file or directory)" [High,Confirmed]
<jamespage> ...
<jamespage> ok
<jamespage> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<jamespage> any events planned that folks are attending?
<jamespage> nope - OK - I suspect gaughen and I won't be here next tuesday so sending apologies in advance
<jamespage> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<jamespage> open floor...
<jamespage> ok
<jamespage> moving on
<jamespage> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<jamespage> next tuesday
<jamespage> so that will be...
<jamespage> 3rd February 2015 at 1600 UTC
<gaughen> I don't think arosales will be here next week
<jamespage> see you all then...
<jamespage> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 27 16:24:00 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-27-16.03.moin.txt
<caribou> jamespage: thanks
<gaughen> thank you jamespage !!
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 27 17:00:28 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Vivid
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<arges> o/
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<cking> o/
<smb> o/
<apw> o/
<sforshee> o/
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<henrix> o/
<kamal> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<chiluk> o/
<ppisati> o/
<arges> I think the blizzard finally got joe
<cking> -ENOJOE
<ppisati> the snowmageddond took its toll
<ppisati> *snowmageddon
<ogasawara> well, we know the drill...I'll go first
<ogasawara> Our Vivid kernel has been rebased to v3.18.3 upstream stable.  It's been
<ogasawara> uploaded to the archive, 3.18.0-11.2.  We'll rebase to v3.18.4 shortly.
<ogasawara> We've also rebased our unstable branch to v3.19-rc6 and uploaded to our
<ogasawara> ckt PPA.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 5 - 14.04.2 Point Release (~1 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Feb 26 - Beta 1 Freeze (~4 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   * Precise - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Trusty - Verification & Testing
<bjf>   *  Utopic - Verification & Testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 09-Jan through 31-Jan
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          09-Jan   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 11-Jan - 17-Jan   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 18-Jan - 31-Jan   Bug verification; Regression testing; Release
<bjf> ..
<ogasawara> does anyone have any questions to raise with the team?
<ogasawara> ok, thanks everyone
<apw> #endmeeting
<kamal> thanks spirit of jsalisbury
<ogasawara> heh
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 27 17:06:19 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-27-17.00.moin.txt
<ppisati> lol :)
<arges> : )
<ogasawara> hahaha
<apw> very secure
<cking> that was the funniest thing I've seen today, that says  a lot about my days
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-01-29
 * slangasek waves
<robru> hola
<mvo> hey, good evening! or morning
<mvo> slangasek is a bit busy today and asked me to drive the meeting
<mvo> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 29 16:00:50 2015 UTC.  The chair is mvo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<sil2100> o/
<mvo> [TOPIC] Lightning round
<infinity> \o
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<jodh> o/
<mvo> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity mvo sil2100 robru cyphermox)
<mvo> caribou mvo slangasek sil2100 stgraber jodh infinity robru cyphermox barry bdmurray doko
<cyphermox> o/
<mvo> hey caribou
<caribou> o/
<caribou> mvo: Hi
<mvo> caribou: you won this time :) you go first
<caribou> :)
<caribou> * Improvement to apport for large kernel dump files
<caribou> * implement firmware assisted kernel dump for ppc64el
<caribou> (done)
<mvo> snappy:
<mvo> - lots of feature work on go version and more tests
<mvo> - impressive speedup on slow ARM hardware so far
<mvo> - move binaries from ~/snappy-bin to /apps/bin
<mvo> - planning
<mvo> - implement python ConfigParser compatible go module for s-i compatibility
<mvo> squid-deb-proxy:
<mvo> - Merge fix for LP: #1166667 and upload to debian
<mvo> ubiquity:
<mvo> - Branch review/merges/upload new version
<mvo> ubuntu-release-upgrader:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1166667 in squid-deb-proxy (Ubuntu) "The default configuration is missing the /etc/squid-deb-proxy/autogenerated/pkg-blacklist-regexp.acl file" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1166667
<mvo> - Review  lp:~xnox/ubuntu-release-upgrader/lp1409555
<mvo>   Hit "nosetest3/python3 -m unitest" issue where it would apparently not
<mvo>   honor PYTHONPATH - barry help :-)
<mvo> misc:
<mvo> - started with performance review
<mvo> (done)
<barry> mvo: ping me after the meeting
<mvo> barry: sure
<mvo> hm, slangasek is busy, so sil2100 next?
<sil2100> Ok :)
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silos coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - Weekend trainguard shift before the big deadline
<sil2100> - Quick look into the vivid image brokeness due to new lxc upload
<sil2100> - Working on project maintenance, helping out upstream developers in keeping branches synced
<slangasek> well, I can give a status dump, but sil2100 go ahead
<sil2100> - Investigating and finding the root cause of the lack of autopilot smoketests
<sil2100>   * Getting ubuntu-rtm tests back
<sil2100>   * Gathering information for vivid issues with wrong bzr revision in terminal-app
<sil2100> - Landing coordination for big milestone
<sil2100> - Investigating Qt header issues with licensecheck
<sil2100> - Reverting mediascanner2 in vivid (regression in music-app)
<sil2100>   * Now properly fixed upstream
<sil2100> - Fix the reverter script in cupstream2distro
<sil2100> - RTM status meetings
<sil2100> - Reverting unity-scopes-shell to fix recent scopes accounts regression
<sil2100> - Documenting milestone progress on the wiki reports page
<sil2100> - Qt 5.4
<sil2100>   * Rebuilding old components
<sil2100>   * Including Albert's patch for qtbase to fix qtmir tests
<sil2100>   * More touch testing
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek>  * ongoing snappy work; nothing specific to report, mostly roadmapping to 15.04 right now
<slangasek>  * 14.04.2 prep
<slangasek>  * partner package processing
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> :)
<jodh> looks like stgraber isn't around so I'll go:
<jodh> * misc:
<jodh>   - Short week as out Monday.
<jodh> * snappy:
<jodh>   - lp:snappy (go):
<jodh>     - Raised MP for lp:~jamesodhunt/snappy/ensure-other-mounted-ro
<jodh>     - Raised MP for lp:~jamesodhunt/snappy/fix-stringSliceRemote
<stgraber> I'm sprinting this week and next
<jodh>     - Reviewed and merged a few other branches.
<jodh>   - Planning.
<jodh>   - Currently co-ordinating changes to 4 packages that need to land
<jodh>     together and which will allow the snappy code to be simpler and more performant.
<jodh> á
<infinity> slangasek: I was expecting a much less professional reject message on that SRU.
<infinity> * Prep for 14.04.2 point release
<infinity>   - X HWE SRU review and babysitting
<infinity>   - Kernel SRU wrangling
<infinity>   - POWER SRUs
<infinity> * Fix 32-bit EABI binary execution on arm64
<infinity> * General SRU and AA handling
<infinity> * Stopped being sick, finally
<infinity> * Next two weeks, I'll be in Capetown and then Hong Kong
<infinity> (done)
<robru> * major, ongoing work to get a new production deployment of ci train
<robru>   - lots of iterations over lots of random little gotchas
<robru>   - fixed vhost templates
<robru>   - fixed broken nagios check
<robru>   - added landscape, ksplice, and basenode support
<robru>   - added & configured persistent nova volume storage
<robru>   - renamed 'ci-train-apache2-jenkins' unit to just 'ci-train-apache2' in order to disambiguate from 'ci-train-jenkins' unit.
<robru> * expanded wiki instructions for blowing away and redeploying ci-train.staging.ubuntu.com after doing so several times
<robru> * got my meizu and flashed vivid on it after a few stumbles
<robru> * and as usual, landings, landings, landings.
<robru> â done
<cyphermox>  * triaging plymouth bugs
<cyphermox>  * installation-guide update + add note about live-installer/net-image preseed config
<cyphermox>  * fixed up SRUs to trusty for gnome-bluetooth + bluez simple secure pairing.
<cyphermox>  * merged: network-manager-pptp, network-manager-applet, isdnutils with help from ari-tczew
<cyphermox>  * reviewed merges for debian-cd, livecd-rootfs, ubiquity for Ubuntu MATE
<cyphermox>  * upload NM 0.9.10.0 with more autopkgtest fixes and patches
<cyphermox>  * grub cherry-pick for bug 1311247 to Debian, got synced by Colin.
<ubottu> bug 1311247 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "[Grubenv] error: malformed file, press any key to continue" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1311247
<cyphermox> (done)
<barry> system-image: triaging bugs for snappy branch port to si 3.0.  LP: #1377184.  LP: #1381538.  LP: #1333414.  LP: #1414700 (discussed).  bump coverage back to 100%.  kinda started https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-system-image/+spec/test-server
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1377184 in system-image (Ubuntu) "move archive_master file out of /etc to avoid it being treated as a conffile" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1377184
<barry> cloud-init: python 3 port completed, awaiting merge.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1381538 in Ubuntu system image "Please rename the "reboot" hook to something more generic like "apply"" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1381538
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1333414 in Ubuntu system image "Add --skip-gpg-verification flag" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1333414
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1414700 in Ubuntu system image "Port ReloadConfiguration() API from snappy branch" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1414700
<barry> debuntu: LP: #1415028 (discussed).  discussed python-selenium update with thomi
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1415028 in python-virtualenv (Ubuntu) "virtualenv's included pip does not use system libraries" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1415028
<barry> --done--
<bdmurray> finished testing of channel filtering in canonistack (good)
<bdmurray> updated cassandra code in errors to filter by channel (due to an oops)
<bdmurray> added device filtering to the errors frontend
<bdmurray> updated default device / channel selection in errors code
<bdmurray> fixed error tracker bug LP: #1410860 (show Ubuntu RTM)
<bdmurray> modified apport-test-crashes package to create some crashes with DistroRelease of Ubuntu RTM 14.09 for testing LP: #1410860
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1410860 in Errors "show Ubuntu RTM releases in package versions table" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1410860
<bdmurray> test phased-updater rate increase (found django change bug)
<bdmurray> investigation into retracer oopses not being caught
<bdmurray> sorted out why OOPSes aren't appearing on daisy in canonistack
<bdmurray> worked with lamont regarding statsd_host changes
<bdmurray> pinged pitti about apport uploading crashes to Launchpad
<bdmurray> resolution of apport package hooks not being run by whoopsie-upload-all
<bdmurray> uploaded fix for bug LP: #1411584 to T and U
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1411584 in liboobs (Ubuntu Utopic) "correctly return error and emit warning" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1411584
<bdmurray> uploaded fix for bug LP: #1411577 to T and U
<bdmurray> uploaded fix for LP: #1411610 to T and U
<bdmurray> uploaded samba Trusty SRU for LP: #1412909
<bdmurray> SRU team training of tjaalton
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1411577 in system-tools-backends (Ubuntu Utopic) "fix current user's info retrieval" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1411577
<slangasek> infinity: do we have 14.04.2 desktop candidate images?
<bdmurray> â done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1411610 in gnome-system-tools (Ubuntu Utopic) "don't ignore OobsResult in a callback function" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1411610
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1412909 in samba (Ubuntu Trusty) "Please raise Suggests for lib{pam,nss}-winbind to Recommends in trusty" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1412909
<doko> - gccgo-5 in vivid
<doko> - llvm-3.6 as the default
<doko> - more updates to the ubuntu-toolchain-r/test PPA, the libstdc++
<doko>   ABI transition will be fun :-/
<doko> - openjdk-[678] uploaded
<doko> (done)
<doko> urgh, whl component mismatches ...
<infinity> slangasek: The last of X rolled in this morning, and Maarten and I experimented with how to get it to install cleanly, will translate those experiments into livecd-rootfs changes after I've slept. :/
<mvo> any questions/further comments?
<slangasek> infinity: ah, k.  What was left of X that still needed to roll?
<infinity> slangasek: A few bits had a build-dep on a library that was in universe in trusty, but main in U+, had to give that a copy/promote.
<infinity> slangasek: -evdev, and something else.
<slangasek> ok
<mvo> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<mvo> do we have any AOB?
<infinity> doko: Are we sure the gcc-5 snapshot libgcc1 is a safe thing to be shipping?
<doko> yes
<infinity> (At least it's better than an empty libgcc1 binary?)
<infinity> *cough*
<doko> and if people need go 1.4 in trusty, I wouldn't mind uploading that there too
<slangasek> doko: I thought you had said that libgcc1 wouldn't need to be built from gcc-5
<doko> did I? hmm ...
<slangasek> yes ;)
<slangasek> I don't think I'd like to see that SRUed into trusty
<slangasek> doesn't sound like any other business
<mvo> cool, short meeting then
<mvo> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 29 16:19:40 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-01-29-16.00.moin.txt
<barry> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
<slangasek> mvo: thanks for running!
<mvo> yw
<infinity> *wave*
<caribou> thanks!
<Windows> hello
<Windows> anyone home
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-02-01
<Kilos> o/
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Feb  1 16:32:51 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Gianfranco Costamagna (LocutusOfBorg) provided debdiffs for trusty-wily for virtualbox (LP: #1538115)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1538115 in virtualbox (Ubuntu) "virtualbox SRU for CVEs" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538115
<tyhicks> Otto KekÃ¤lÃ¤inen provided debdiffs for mariadb-5.5 (trusty, LP: #1524704) and mariadb-10.0 (vivid, wily, LP: #1538315)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1524704 in mariadb-5.5 (Ubuntu Trusty) "New upstream microrelease available: 5.5.47" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1524704
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1538315 in mariadb-10.0 (Ubuntu Wily) "USN-2881-1: MySQL vulnerabilities also apply to MariaDB" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1538315
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hey
<jdstrand> so, this week I am focusing on snappy. in particular the review tools
<jdstrand> I will be working on cleanups, new snap.yaml format and squashfs verification
<jdstrand> I think that is it for me
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> and I plan on working on qemu updates
<jdstrand> oh, I'll also respond to the skills threads as needed
<mdeslaur> I may have time to pick something else off the list
<mdeslaur> that's about it, sbeattie
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week
<sbeattie> I have openjdk updates that I'm finishing up
<sbeattie> I need to finish writing up my gcc -pie email about the test rebuild
<sbeattie> I also have some apparmor items to get through this week
<sbeattie> That will probably consume most of my week, along with the usual kernel cve handling.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up.
<tyhicks> I'm in the community role this week
<tyhicks> I will again focus on AppArmor stacking
<tyhicks> I'm working on adding the ability to handle stacking rules in apparmor_parser
<tyhicks> I'll also be working on cleaning up a large patch set of AppArmor kernel fixes from jj to land in Xenial and SRU to stable releases
<tyhicks> if I have time, there are a few code review requests that would be nice to tend to
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<tyhicks> I don't see him around atm
<tyhicks> sarnold_: go ahead
<sarnold> bah
<sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week; I ought to finish the dpdk MIR today or tomorrow (depending upon how buggy the weekend was :) and then move on to the backlog of review requests; if there's more apparmor stacking discussion, maybe throw in my two cents occasionally
<sarnold> that should do it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I don't have any updates planned this week (yay), although I'm still expecting a thunderbird update at some point
<chrisccoulson> So I'll be focusing on finishing bug 1459830 and investigating some issues with playcanvas
<ubottu> bug 1459830 in Oxide "Support drag and drop" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1459830
<chrisccoulson> Oh, the "no updates planned" bit isn't technically true - I'll be updating Firefox this week to fix a regression in the current version
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<tyhicks> bummer
<tyhicks> would have been nice to make it through the week without an update :)
<chrisccoulson> heh
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/owncloud-client.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/node.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/tripleo-heat-templates.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/geary.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/puppet-module-puppetlabs-stdlib.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Feb  1 16:49:21 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-02-01-16.32.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-02-03
<Soul-Sing> Description of poll: Hello irc-ers. Voting for 3 slots on the IRC Council. Winners will be determined using the beatpath method on Condorcet. Voting is open to all Ubuntu IRC Team members.
<Soul-Sing> is this poll closed?
<Soul-Sing>  http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/vote.pl?id=E_2c822c0exxxxxxkey=11eed3exxxxxx gives a poll closed
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-02-04
 * tsimonq2 is a little nervous that he might not get home in time (although I usually get home at 21:45 UTC, roads are bad) so keep that in mind :)
<pitti> **\o/**
<sil2100> o/
<xnox> yo
 * xnox starts to frantically shuffle papaers
<cyphermox> hey!
<robru> o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  4 16:01:27 2016 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
 * genii makes a large pot of coffee 
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx xnox chiluk)
<slangasek> tdaitx pitti slangasek doko infinity barry caribou xnox sil2100 chiluk robru bdmurray cyphermox
<slangasek> tdaitx: hello!
<cyphermox> I lost :(
<pitti> sooo close!
 * pitti tosses a candy towards tdaitx
<slangasek> pitti: ok, go ahead :)
<pitti> ci train sprint:
<pitti>  - fought way too long with trying to deploy to Canonistack (lcy01 is broken, no response to STS ticket; lcy02 timing out)
<pitti>  - fought way too long with mojo and trying to deploy to juju-local; got a working rollout at last, updated lots of missing details on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/citrain/Development; reproduced again in clean VM
<pitti>  - implement proper log rotation in bileto, land bileto charm fix
<pitti>  - Investigate flipping between running and approved; identified and fixed at least one reason (#1537866)
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - Further debug arm64 breakage in scalingstack; making some progress, but still blocked by #1531768
<pitti>  - Investigate broken ppc64el xenial cloud images (#1541757)
<pitti> distro:
<pitti>  - openvpn: Apply script-security hack from init.d script to the .service (#1454725)
<pitti>  - python-distutils-extra: Some bug fixes, modernize packaging
<pitti>  - schroot: Test/upload Tyler's patch for fixing recursive bind mounts in schroot (#1430557)
<pitti>  - systemd: Make package build and tests work against upstream master (preparation for hooking this into upstream git PRs)
<pitti>  - systemd: merge with Debian, fix /run/lock regression (#1541775)
<pitti>  - Review caribou's rsyslog merge, discuss cleaning it up, sponsor
<pitti>  - Review/comment supported-build-depends proposal
<pitti>  - ongoing: Consistently use /etc/adjtime for UTC vs. LOCAL, grep archive for catching all of it (#1541532)
<pitti> (end)
<slangasek>  * merges: shadow now updated, clearing one of the oldest merges off the list and adding a systemd unit to its upstart job
<slangasek>   * and dh_systemd still makes me angry
<slangasek>  * working on standing up .deb based images for rpi2 to go with the snappy images for this cycle
<slangasek>  * presentation prep work for the snappy sprint in 2 weeks
<slangasek>  * discussions around the creation of the preinstalled snappy images and infrastructure needed
<slangasek>  * still on baby watch
<slangasek> (done)
<doko> what is wrong with dh_systemd?
<doko> - FOSDEM, free java room
<doko> - following the unannounced openmpi transition
<doko> - netcdf transition
<doko> - llvm-3.8, fix ftbfs, prepare for transitin
<doko> - removed last references to ruby2.1, removed now.
<doko> - python3.4 removal still waits for numpy to migrate.
<doko> - binutils update
<doko> - prepare gccgo-6, (with go 1.6 support)
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> doko: it should have been a minor extension to dh_installinit
<barry> no infinity?
<pitti> slangasek: FWIW, /etc/init/passwd.conf would more efficiently transition to a tmpfiles.d/ snippet than a .service calling rm
<slangasek> and it should have been done as part of debhelper instead of an add-on that now everyone has to build-depend on separately for the default init system
<barry> debian bug #811110
<ubottu> Debian bug 811110 in wnpp "ITP: dirtbike -- convert installed Python packages to wheels" [Wishlist,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/811110
<slangasek> pitti: ah, thanks for the hint
<pitti> slangasek: (let's talk off-meeting)
<barry> pip 7.1.2, 8.0.2, 8.0.2-1 (still needs work and fixes to virtualenv)
<slangasek> pitti: I hadn't considered tmpfiles.d being used to remove files from /etc :)
<barry> LP: #1541407
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1541407 in apt-xapian-index (Ubuntu) "/usr/share/apt-xapian-index/update-apt-xapian-index-dbus:SyntaxError" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1541407
<barry> like pitti, i fought the mojo and the mojo won.
<barry> virtual sprint on bileto
<barry> --done--
<caribou>  Bugfix :
<caribou>  - LP #1528101 - vm.min_free_kbytes crash issues
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1528101 in kexec-tools (Ubuntu) "ISST-LTE: kdump failed: second kernel booting hangs after /scripts/init-bottom when large min_free_kbytes value being set" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1528101
<caribou>    Solution would be overly complex for a corner case
<caribou>  - LP #1534106 - rsyslog segfault with juju
<caribou>    merged rsyslog 8.16.0-2 which should fix this
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1534106 in rsyslog (Ubuntu) "rsyslogd crashed with SIGSEGV with juju-local configuration" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1534106
<xnox> \o/
<caribou>  Development work:
<caribou>  - LP #1540537 - libvirt sponsorship
<caribou>    WIP
<caribou>  - LP #1539483 - rsyslog merge
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1540537 in libvirt (Ubuntu Vivid) "make ovs-vsctl not raise error if there's no portData available." [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1540537
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1539483 in rsyslog (Ubuntu) "Please merge rsyslog 8.16.0-1 (main) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1539483
<caribou>  - LP: #1540491 - merge clamav
<caribou>  - Learn new git merge workflow for clamav
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1540491 in clamav (Ubuntu) "Please merge clamav 0.99+dfsg-1 (main) from Debian stable" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1540491
<caribou>  â Done
<xnox> * Fiddling with s/-m32/-m31/
<xnox> * uploaded d-i, s390-tools, choose-mirror, s390-netdevice
<xnox> * unbroke adt tests on multipath-tools (somewhat), mysql
<xnox> * debugging parted crashes, on lvm, on dasd - reffered to upstream contributor LP: 1541510
<xnox> * uploaded upstart (minor old bugfix upload)
<xnox> * nodejs (with patch from previously deffered upstream fix)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1541510 in parted (Ubuntu) "parted crashes on lvm, on a dasd drive" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1541510
<xnox> * systemd with shorter network names, there is now space for :vlan-id
<xnox> * FOSDEM
<xnox> * Started nomination process for DMB - anybody wants to join?! =)
<xnox> ..
<sil2100> - Sick with flu the whole week, productivity lowered
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination, preparing landing e-mails
<sil2100> - RTM Status meetings
<sil2100> - system-image:
<sil2100>   * Review of a community submitted device-alias merge
<sil2100>   * Creation of the new PD-related frieza channels
<sil2100>   * Helping debugging some local s-i servers for the community
<sil2100> - OTA-9.5:
<sil2100>   * Preparing snapshot, creating first semi-candidate image
<sil2100>   * Work on scheduling and importing the new custom and device tarballs
<sil2100>   * Bug triaging, chasing upstreams
<sil2100> - +1-maintenance and patch piloting
<slangasek> xnox: -m31 - augh?
<sil2100>   * Merge denemo from Debian per sponsoring request
<sil2100>   * Sponsor SRU for live-build
<sil2100>   * Publish doko's multi-arch changes for some CI Train projects
<barry> sil2100: i saw your mp, will get to it when i can
<sil2100>   * Looking into one livecd-rootfs review
<sil2100> - Landing Team tools:
<sil2100>   * Changes to the issue tracker for better blocker tracking for OTA purposes
<sil2100>   * New small helper script additions
<sil2100>   * Fixing the snapshotting script to workaround issue with packages from private builders
<xnox> slangasek, because lib32* packages do not come for free =) well, at least 2 did not.
<sil2100> - Different MP reviews (most related to touch)
<sil2100> (done)
<caribou> xnox: do you think that adding zfcpdump to kdump-config be useful ?
<xnox> slangasek, they had -m64 packages, but no -m31 packages.
<xnox> caribou, YES!
<sil2100> barry: \o/ thanks, it's still WIP paused until this crazy milestone is done but I'd like someone to take a look at it in the meantime
 * doko forgot 30 multiarchifications 
<xnox> caribou, that's the only way to get a dump out of those things.
<caribou> xnox: I'll see what can be done; we already implemented firmware assisted dumps for Power8
<slangasek> xnox: what packages ?  we haven't agreed to do any engineering work to enable -m31 builds...  is this upstream in Debian?
<xnox> slangasek, let's talk after meeting.
<chiluk> sounds like my turn then.
<chiluk> - Requested security team put comments on the launchpad bugs when SRU's are pulled from -proposed due to CVEs.  This is all due to CVE confusion in #1527062.  The kernel team may need to modify their scripts accodingly as well.
<chiluk> - Other than that mostly non-public support casework this week.
<chiluk> -done-
<robru> * coaching pitti, barry, bdmurray in ci-train/bileto bugfixing for sprint this week
<robru> * prepped bugs, organizing priorities and pointing out where in code to work on fixes
<robru> * reviewing & merging the copious amounts of work done by pitti, barry, bdmurray this week
<robru> * many, many, many iterations on the deployment instructions so that you can almost, sorta, kinda, deploy ci-train into canonistack.
<robru> (done)
<bdmurray> modified mojo spec to use the dse version of cassandra and testing it
<bdmurray> investigation into 16.04 retrace failures for seb128
<bdmurray> uploaded whoopsie to Xenial (doko's multiarch changes)
<bdmurray> reported that Supported time frame for xenial packages is wrong
<bdmurray> ubuntu-release-upgrader merge proposal review and testing for LP: #153880
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 153880 in texlive-base (Ubuntu) "Update manager hangs during install from Feisty to Gutsy" [Undecided,Expired] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153880
<bdmurray> uploaded ubuntu-release-upgrader to Xenial
<bdmurray> worked on creating a snap for a WeMo server
<bdmurray> prep for bileto sprint
<bdmurray> bileto sprint (LP: #1488956, LP: #1530870, LP: #1541258)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1488956 in Bileto "Lander IRC nickname should be fetched from Launchpad" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1488956
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1530870 in CI Train [cu2d] "Ticket's published_versions should state series information" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1530870
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1541258 in CI Train [cu2d] "Stop writing useless files." [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1541258
<bdmurray> â done
<cyphermox> - [MIR] appstream review
<cyphermox> - [MIR] fwupd review
<cyphermox> - [MIR] s390-tools review
<cyphermox> - [Misc] sablecc update
<cyphermox> - [trusty] multipath-tools on LVM (bug lp:#1540401)
<cyphermox> - [trusty] libaudit openssh/shadow verification (bug lp:#1478087)
<cyphermox> advance warning, prepare for the bug link flood...
<cyphermox> - [trusty] ubiquity 2.18.8.12 merge from jderose (bug lp:#1539266)
<cyphermox> - [trusty] multipath/parted bugfixes (bug lp:#1432062, bug lp:#1473903, bug lp:#1486370, bug lp:#1496210, bug lp:#1503286, bug lp:#1526984, bug lp:#1536008, bug lp:#1538775)
<cyphermox> - [vivid] NetworkManager backport
<slangasek> bdmurray: I think I pushed the merge for the xenial support time frame, is that fixed now in the metadata?
<cyphermox> ... or not?
<cyphermox>   - backporting IPv6 support for broadband modems
<cyphermox> - [xenial] s390-tools upload
<cyphermox>   - removed Build-Depends on libsysfs
<cyphermox> - [xenial] multipath-tools bugfix (bug lp:#1540660)
<cyphermox>   - also fix rebuilds and add autopkgtest
<cyphermox> (done)
<caribou> cyphermox: lp# w/o a space is not picked up
<cyphermox> doh.
 * cyphermox fixes his sed+xslt
<slangasek> :)
<slangasek> alright
<slangasek> any questions?
<caribou> I got one for AOB
<slangasek> robru: would you like to give any more detail about this week's vsprint?
<bdmurray> slangasek: hmm, I'm not seeing support at all
<bdmurray> s/support/Supported/
<slangasek> bdmurray: we're talking about the metadata in the Packages file, right?
<robru> slangasek: sorry I forgot to prep notes last night so that was written in a hurry
<slangasek> bdmurray: it's possible my merge broke it, since it landed this week (after discussion on #ubuntu-release last week)... is there a bug #?
<slangasek> robru: well, I'm just asking if you want to talk about how it's going... not read from notes :)
<robru> slangasek: many many bugs fixed, lemme see: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bileto/+bug/1488956 https://bugs.launchpad.net/cupstream2distro/+bug/1530870 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bileto/+bug/1513649 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bileto/+bug/1538717 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bileto/+bug/1538716 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bileto/+bug/1538718
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1488956 in Bileto "Lander IRC nickname should be fetched from Launchpad" [Wishlist,Fix released]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1530870 in CI Train [cu2d] "Ticket's published_versions should state series information" [Wishlist,Fix released]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1513649 in Bileto "Warn when publishing to vivid and destination PPA field is left blank" [Undecided,Fix released]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1538717 in Bileto "implement log rotation for iterate.py" [Undecided,Fix released]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1538716 in Bileto "Needs a clickable index of static files." [Undecided,Fix released]
<bdmurray> slangasek: I noticed via apt-cache show but imagine that looks at the Packages file. Checking another system after running apt-get update the Supported info disappeared
<robru> slangasek: it's going really well, the guys are picking things up quick, I'm quite pleased with how fast everything's gone. all the prep last week is paying off for sure
<slangasek> bdmurray: ok, very likely that it somehow managed to regress then.  If there's no bug open, let's take it to #ubuntu-release for discussion after (and find somebody who can tell me where I can find the output of the script)
<bdmurray> slangasek: no bug, sounds fine
<slangasek> robru: cool.  getting close to having an actually reliably deployable development environment from mojo? :)
<pitti> slangasek: the instructions work now; it still needs to run mojo two or three times, but just that
<robru> slangasek: close to as good as it's going to get. what makes it difficult is that a) canonistack is really slow and flaky, and b) the amount of creds required is staggering and creating them all new is a royal pain
<slangasek> pitti: because of canonistack reliability problems?
<robru> slangasek: yep
<pitti> yeah, forget canonistack
 * slangasek nods
<pitti> slangasek: I meant in juju-local
<slangasek> robru: right, but I assume the creds stuff can be done once per developer?
<pitti> I tried about 10 to 15 times, it always times out
<robru> pitti: oh you got juju local working? last I heard you switched to canonistack because of some issue
<slangasek> pitti: so it takes 2-3 runs even for local?
<robru> slangasek: true, each developer can re-use their own creds
<pitti> I set up a new LP account with a new GPG and SSH key; that part is by far the most work
<robru> yeah
<pitti> as it needs lots of veriifcation emails, uploading a new key, etc.
<pitti> slangasek: yeah, there are some juju-local bugs
<pitti> like, the juju agent often doesn't finish installation, and it's stuck forever in "waiting for agent to run"
<slangasek> I wonder if it would make sense to omit the LP integration pieces from the devel setup, and just mock it somehow
<slangasek> pitti: ah, doh
<slangasek> anyway, cool - glad to hear you've got it down to "just" juju bugs and creds :)
<pitti> so killing those broken machines and re-running works
<robru> slangasek: I'm not sure how that would even look. it's very tightly coupled to lp, from interacting with PPAs to querying lplib about packages and stuff.
<pitti> I guess for robru it's fine to use his own LP user and creds
<pitti> but I don't want to create a password-less GPG user for my account
<slangasek> robru: I mean for the ppa interaction part.  Querying lplib about packages in the main archive should still work the same.  OTOH, being tightly coupled to LP is a good thing, it means you don't have too many wheels reinvented :)
<pitti> lp:~pitti can do too much damage everywhere :)
<robru> pitti: I used my own because I wasn't bothered by the issue where you need a passwordless gpg in order to be able to sign packages; I just do builds in staging rather than use my own deployment
<slangasek> pitti: pretty sure robru's account also has privileges in places, and that he was aiming for core-dev...
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else today?
<pitti> so, it's set then -- robru will charm up Launchpad, we can roll it out into two more containers
<barry> pitti: agreed
 * pitti runs away really fast to evade the bullets
<robru> slangasek: yeah my account has lots of access but the thing is that I didn't associate a passwordless gpg key with my account as is required for a fully functioning deployment
<slangasek> robru: right, that's fine then
<caribou> there is a request to backport the mstflint version in Xenial to the other stable releases as it becomes inoperatable with newer hardware from mellanox
<cyphermox> oh
<slangasek> caribou: sounds to me like an appropriate hardware enablement SRU
<pitti> I hope today we can finish the web-clicky version of "retry my failed tests in a silo"
<caribou> there is quite a gap b/w trusty's version and Xenial
<caribou> slangasek: what's the best approach for the SRU : a massive debdiff b/w the two versions ?
<slangasek> caribou: does it carry risk of regression for other hardware, though, and if so how will it be validated?  Maybe it's better to put it in trusty as a parallel package?
<caribou> slangasek: parallel package as in -backports ?
<caribou> slangasek: right now, the ones pushing for this the harder are Mellanox themselves
<slangasek> caribou: I mean package it under a different name (mstflint-4 or mstflint-why-cant-hardware-interfaces-be-stable)
<slangasek> -backports would seem ok to me as well
<caribou> mstfint-4 could be a valid solution, we'll investigate that
<caribou> slangasek: ok, thanks!
<slangasek> what else?
<bdmurray> It's EoL day right?
<slangasek> yes and no
<slangasek> yes for desktop and server, no for snappy and phone :)
<slangasek> bdmurray: did you already flip meta release?
<pitti> oh, schroot removal o'clock!
<pitti> more seriously, what about running vivid autopkgtests? I figure we still need them for the phone
<barry> pitti: indeed :)
<pitti> we just won't get any updated cloud images any more
<bdmurray> slangasek: No, I was having issues upgrading from T to W but will today. Oh, that's interesting I was working on rejejct crashes from 15.04 but then what about the phone...
<slangasek> pitti, bdmurray: we ought not change anything on the infrastructure side for vivid right now
<pitti> OOI, is there a timeline for migrating to wily or xenial?
<xnox> pitti, hardware EOL?
<slangasek> pitti: I don't have any timeline
<xnox> pitti, cause like armhf abi breaks in qdouble, and c++11 abi are hard to "upgrade" to.
<pitti> xnox: right, but that problem won't become any easier with time passing
<pitti> i. e. with pre-built apps in the store
<xnox> pitti, right, but e.g. hopefully one day all things become arm64, with a hard/good qdouble and c++11 abi.
<pitti> wow
<slangasek> heh
<xnox> (and hopefully we will not have c+=14 abi problem)
<pitti> that sounds like vivid super-LTS
<slangasek> pitti: it is an issue that we should keep pressing on, and not just wait until all of the armhf devices are EOL
<slangasek> I'd suggest ubuntu-phone for that :)
<pitti> well, potentially we could upload the rest of vivid to the overlay PPA, and that then becomes the "full" vivid-touch archive?
<xnox> \o/ problem solved
<pitti> well, not really
<pitti> but we could at least drop vivid from /ubuntu
<slangasek> no
<slangasek> vivid is staying where it is
<pitti> someone still needs to provide updates for the touch-y packages
<slangasek> and this is not the meeting to discuss this :)
<pitti> ok, so I'll keep everything running
<slangasek> pitti: alright, great :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  4 16:42:45 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-02-04-16.01.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<caribou> thanks!
<bdmurray> slangasek: to be clear, keep accepting crashes from vivid but set unsupported in the meta-release file?
<pitti> thanks all!
<slangasek> bdmurray: yes
<barry> thanks!
<slangasek> bdmurray: if that's ok / works ?
<bdmurray> slangasek: the retracers are keeping up w/ the load so sure
<xnox> slangasek, bdmurray didn't we "oversupport" quantal or some such too? because there was a cloud of some sort.
<bdmurray> xnox: Not that I recall and we wouldn't have gotten automatic crashes from that setup.
<slangasek> bdmurray: right - and if they weren't keeping up with the load, that would mean we need more retracers to handle the reports from things our users are still running :)
<bdmurray> slangasek: just because they are still running it doesn't mean we are fixing those crashes...
<slangasek> bdmurray: true; but the phone team is still supporting 15.04
<bdmurray> slangasek: right I was being pedantic about "things our users are still running" - crashes from Saucy aren't useful
<dholbach> Hello everybody!
<dholbach> #startmeeting CC meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  4 17:00:41 2016 UTC.  The chair is dholbach. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC meeting | Current topic:
<dholbach> #chair belkinsa czajkowski hggdh sgclark mhall119 marcoceppi
<meetingology> Current chairs: belkinsa czajkowski dholbach hggdh marcoceppi mhall119 sgclark
<czajkowski> Aloha
<dholbach> almost the entire CC :)
<hggdh> o/
<sgclark> hello
<mhall119> o/
<belkinsa> o/
<dholbach> how are we all doing? :)
<belkinsa> Doing well.  Thanks for asking.
<mhall119> trying to blame being tired on jetlag, but the timeline isn't in my favor there
<hggdh> life is good :-)
<sgclark> allergies :(
<dholbach> mhall119: I'm with you on that one :)
 * dholbach hugs sgclark
<czajkowski> pesky timezones :)
<dholbach> so we're meeting the Xubuntu team... do we have anyone from the team here?
<mhall119> pleia2: ?
<mhall119> although, I think she's at linux.conf.au this week
 * micahg is here, but hasn't been doing much with Xubuntu lately
<dholbach> ochosi?
<dholbach> Noskcaj_?
<dholbach> just pinging folks in #xubuntu-devel right now
 * genii makes more coffee
<dholbach> I would suggest we wait a few mins - and then move on to the Ubuntu Studio team if we can't find anyone
 * belkinsa nods
 * hggdh finishes current coffee brew, and prepares another
<dholbach> can anyone ping a few ubuntu studio people already? :)
<mhall119> or we can start with studio first if there's someone here for it
<mhall119> and then try XUbuntu again after
<dholbach> sure, that'd work for me as well
<czajkowski> nods
<belkinsa> dholbach, Ubuntu Studio pinged in their channel.
<mhall119> zequence: are you around for the Ubuntu Studio catchup meeting?
<dholbach> thanks belkinsa
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
<mhall119> perhaps we need to go back to sending reminder emails 24 hours in advance
<dholbach> yeah :-/
<belkinsa> Agreed.
<mhall119> or setting up a shared calendar with invites
<mhall119> so folks get a notification
<belkinsa> That could work.
 * sgclark nods
<dholbach> is there anyone who woud like to take a look at setting this up?
<mhall119> I will
<sgclark> Sure I will
<sgclark> mhall119: you do enough  :)
<Rosco2> Hi - I am from Ubuntu Studio
<mhall119> doesn't feel like it :/
<belkinsa> Rosco2, prefect, thank you!
<mhall119> sgclark: let's work together on it then
<sgclark> I know the feeling
<belkinsa> Same here.
<sgclark> mhall119: sounds good :)
<dholbach> thanks a lot mhall119, sgclark!
<dholbach> thanks Rosco2!
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Ubuntu Studio team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC meeting | Current topic: Catching up with the Ubuntu Studio team
<dholbach> Rosco2: how are you doing? :)
<Rosco2> There is still time for zequence to join at half past
<Rosco2> Fine
<Rosco2> First time I have joined one of these
<mhall119> Rosco2: yeah, we didn't have anyone from Xubuntu here so we're starting Studio earlier than planned
<dholbach> Rosco2: great to have you :-)
<dholbach> how are things in the Ubuntu Studio world?
<Rosco2> We are in a transition with zequence soon to be replaced with Set
<Rosco2> as new Lead
<Rosco2> hopefullt Set joins too
<dholbach> ah cool... have you been working together for a while already?
<Rosco2> I have only been around for a couple of cycles
<dholbach> Which part of Ubuntu Studio are you most interested in?
<Rosco2> I currently maintain some packages in Debian
<mhall119> a couple of cycles is a decent amount of time invested :) We're happy you've been around this long
<Rosco2> So helping with syncs/merges SRUs - bug triage etc
<belkinsa> Yes, and maybe enough to apply for your Membership/
<Rosco2> I have volunteered to be Test Lead
<dholbach> Rosco2: nice... has somebody been sponsoring your upload for you up until now?
<Rosco2> So the first big thing is to help with the release
<Rosco2> I have not had that many uploads in Ubuntu
<dholbach> How are things looking so far for 16.04?
<Rosco2> And quite a few different sponsors
<dholbach> Excellent! :-)
<Rosco2> From my part - looking good
<mhall119> Rosco2: have you considered applying for Ubuntu Membership?
<sakrecoer> greetings!
<Rosco2> We have been working with flocculant to get some manuaÃ¦ test cases on the QA tracker
<mhall119> as belkinsa mentioned, you've been around long enough for it, and I'm sure you can get testimonials from other members in Ubuntu Studio
<mhall119> hello sakrecoer
<czajkowski> Rosco2: excellent
<belkinsa> Rosco2, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<belkinsa> For info on the Membership.
<Rosco2> Thanks - I will look into it
<belkinsa> Not a problem.
 * mhall119 sees you've also been active in gramps, I love that program
<flocculant> czajkowski: they did good with the testcases :)
<Rosco2> Gramps is what got me started
<belkinsa> Rosco2, have you and the team ran into any problems in this cycle?
<dholbach> do you have still many things you need to get done for 16.04?
<belkinsa> This cycle = 16.04.
<Rosco2> We have not been very ambitious with new features this cycle
<dholbach> So I guess a lot of package updates and stabilisation?
<Rosco2> But Set has been working to sort out artwork etc
<mhall119> Rosco2: is that from lack of time/resources, or lack of confidence?
<Rosco2> Resources I would say
<mhall119> what's the plan for increasing that? Do you need help with recruitment or promotion?
<Rosco2> There are many of us that are in the Studio team but also have other interests
<mhall119> ^^ that's a question for anyone involved in Studio, not just Rosco2
<dholbach> is the rt kernel still being used for ubuntu studio?
<Rosco2> I think low latency kernel
<dholbach> ah sorry, yes
<dholbach> and the work with the kernel team is going smoothly on that one?
<Rosco2> But zequence & ovenworks know the moost about that
<dholbach> ok -I know that it was a source of problems in the past, but it's probably no issue anymore :)
<Rosco2> Zequence wrote me that things were pretty smooth
<dholbach> excellent - let us know if we can ever help with anything
<dholbach> where do you currently get the most feedback from ubuntu studio users?
<Rosco2> Things are pretty quiet on -user
<sakrecoer> promotion would be very handy. we are putting emphasis on PR. cfhowlett has helped me with that.
<sakrecoer> the feedback is coming in from various channels. i' affraid facebook takes a big chunk of that space
<czajkowski> flocculant: excellent
<dholbach> are you happy with the feedback you've been getting in the last time?
<mhall119> sakrecoer: Facebook has the most eyeballs, so that's not surprising
<sakrecoer> i'm not ancient enough to say if it is more or less feedback. but i hear from zequence that he noted a raise in the average activity/interaction
<dholbach> ok, cool
<mhall119> our of curiousity, what do you guys use most for your regular team communication, is it IRC, emails, something else?
<hggdh> good
<sakrecoer> i would say mailing list, then irc.
<Rosco2> +1
<mhall119> cool
<dholbach> do you have anything you'd like the CC to help you with? or any questions you have for us?
<dholbach> because I have run out of questions now :-)
<Rosco2> I have nothing
<mhall119> How does your team feel about the overall direction that Ubuntu is taking and how Studio fits into that?
<sakrecoer> :) we could need a hand with promotion, especially on recruiting team-members
<dholbach> does ubuntu studio have a page on community.ubuntu.com? maybe we could add something there
<sakrecoer> it is difficult to speak for the hole team, but i think everyone involved and active is pretty happy about the project
<czajkowski> that's really good to hear
<czajkowski> but also if you do have any items we can help just let us know
<dholbach> yes, the door's always open :)
<Rosco2> Thanks
<sakrecoer> the documentation needs update in many areas.
<mhall119> sakrecoer: as for helping with promotion, we can re-share things on FB, Twittere and G+ if you let us know about them
<mhall119> "we" being dholbach and myself
<flocculant> welcome to ubuntu land :p
<flocculant> doesn't it always :)
<dholbach> and keep up the good work! :)
<mhall119> that's the one consistent trait when it comes to documentation, it always needs to be updated :)
<sakrecoer> for example, it is difficult to find a comprehensive howto, on how to pull in the ubuntustudio packages into another ubuntu flavour.
<dholbach> you could ask a question like that on ubuntu-devel@lists.u.c - I'm sure there are folks who could help you with that
<sakrecoer> details like that, that we can sort out on our own, but being few makes it complicated: hence PR on team recruiting would do miracles, i believe
<dholbach> right :)
<sakrecoer> dholbach, i will try that :)
<dholbach> just give us a ping
<mhall119> sakrecoer: in the past we've had success by dedicating a specific hour or two on a specific day to being on IRC and helping new contributors get started. If people know when and where you will be, they tend to come :)
<dholbach> thanks a lot sakrecoer and Rosco2!
<dholbach> sgclark, marcoceppi, czajkowski, mhall119, belkinsa, hggdh: any more questions from you?
<Rosco2> cheers all
<hggdh> none from me
<sgclark> none from me
<mhall119> not from me
<hggdh> Rosco2, sakrecoer: tahnk you for your work
<mhall119> thank you all and keep up the fantastic work on Ubuntu Studio
<sgclark> thanks for your work
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> #topic Catching up with the Xubuntu team
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC meeting | Current topic: Catching up with the Xubuntu team
<dholbach> hello flocculant - how are you doing?
<dholbach> anyone else from the Xubuntu team?
<flocculant> ok thanks
<dholbach> how are things in the Xubuntu team?
<flocculant> ok thanks - not much change anyway :)
<dholbach> so you're stabilising things for the LTS?
<flocculant> oh - krytarik is about but hiding ...
<flocculant> dholbach: we're trying :D
<dholbach> krytarik: welcome :)
<krytarik> Hi. :P
<flocculant> the software centre change or not change isn't helping tbh
<mhall119> flocculant: having any problems with getting things stabilized?
<dholbach> flocculant: are you in touch with the desktop team about this?
<flocculant> it would be nice to know if *you* are changing so we have something to base our decision on
<flocculant> dholbach: ochosi is - and I'm in channel following too
<mhall119> afaik the Unity desktop will be changing
<sgclark> they are changing as I  understand
<flocculant> though recent discussions didn't appear too positive - so ...
<flocculant> sgclark: well yes - but if you see discussions - not quite so clear cut
<mhall119> flocculant: willcooke should be able to give you a definitive answer
<flocculant> tbh - if usc is still there - we might just still use it anyway
<mhall119> flocculant: did Xubuntu use USC previously?
<sgclark> ok, guess I missed them sorry
<dholbach> right, that makes sense
<flocculant> :)
<flocculant> sgclark: I tend to watch the channel for chat on it :)
<dholbach> if you want we can put you in touch and maybe help with organising a catchup with the desktop folks and make sure you're aware of new developments
<mhall119> the downside is that USC doesn't support the new Snappy store
<flocculant> dholbach: I think that we're talking to them anyway about it
<sgclark> sounds like a good move forward dholbach
<flocculant> s/think/know
<dholbach> flocculant: ok... if you're in touch already, that's great
<mhall119> flocculant: are they aware that the uncertainty is causing the Xubuntu team problems?
<dholbach> I just wanted to make sure that communication is at least going fine
<flocculant> the fonts-droid thing is the latest - oh god really :| thing :)
<flocculant> dholbach: yep - we're cool
<flocculant> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2016-February/039159.html
<flocculant> our current position is "<ochosi> bluesabre, knome: cant we raise our concern with the LTS->LTS upgrade path? i mean if they at least keep the pkg around for another cycle that'd be great, and maintenance for a font package is zerrrro"
<dholbach> hum... isn't there a drop-in replacement for the package?
<dholbach> that's at least how I understood the discussion
<flocculant> yea and it looks rather meh to us
<flocculant> so we're in the middle of trying to decide what to do about that as well
<dholbach> ok
<mhall119> was droid-fonts used in the default Xubuntu setup?
<dholbach> it might be a good idea to follow up on the thread and point out that the replacement doesn't work so well for Xubuntu
<dholbach> just so others start looking at it too
<flocculant> yep - that's all being discussed currently - we're not likely to post anywhere pre-emptively
<flocculant> other than me telling you all :D
<dholbach> ok
<flocculant> which leaves our main problem this cycle to last ;)
<flocculant> https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/ubuntu-cdimage/xubuntu-core/+merge/268167
<flocculant> which we've been trying to get sorted for quite some time now
<dholbach> so slangasek is not authoritative enough? or what's the problem?
<dholbach> or are there different opinions in the CD team about it?
<mhall119> flocculant: is there some mis-communication going on here? Maybe having a video chat with slangasek and xnox would help clear things up
<dholbach> or bring it up with the TB
<flocculant> dholbach: you need to check the IRC log in the last comment
<flocculant> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2016/01/06/%23ubuntu-devel.html#t17:23
<dholbach> flocculant: right... I didn't click on it as I wasn't sure if I was expected to read 6892048697426 lines of irc log :-)
<flocculant> ha ha ha
<flocculant> *my* problem of course being if it lands - but lands really late - then I'll not be signing it off from QA pov
<flocculant> I think mhall119 has had some input on it at some point
<mhall119> I brought it back up with slangasek and team, but I don't have any input on it myself
<xnox> ochosi, flocculant - removing a font, and using a different makes a zilch of a difference for LTS->LTS upgrade.
<flocculant> I don't actually expect anything to get done by you all now ofc - you just want to know what's going on
<xnox> thus i don't see what the problem is.
<dholbach> I would send a mail to the TB asking them to take a look at it and to help landing it soon.
<mhall119> but I think this might just be miscommunication that could be cleared up with a real-time chat like a hangout
<flocculant> dholbach: anyway - I'm pushed for time - those are our issues currently - everything else is ticking over nicely
<mhall119> slangasek: xnox: Would you be up for a hangout with knome or others in Xubuntu dev to clear this up?
<dholbach> thanks a lot for going into detail
<slangasek> mhall119: no, that doesn't help anything
<slangasek> there are MPs that need reviewing
<flocculant> xnox: afaik - the issue is the drop-in replacement doesn't look nice :) but I'm not 'arty' by any means
<xnox> ochosi, flocculant, dholbach - two people, slangasek and myself indicated to use "desktop" for small, and "dvd" for big images. in a clear manner, with no code to follow.
<mhall119> slangasek: reviewed by whom?
<slangasek> mhall119: the ubuntu-cdimage team (which includes myself and infinity)
<xnox> slangasek, your comment https://code.launchpad.net/~unit193/ubuntu-cdimage/xubuntu-core/+merge/268167/comments/691226 is not fixed.
<mhall119> slangasek: ok, can those get a priority bump so that the Xubuntu team has time to get their QA stuff done for the LTS release?
<flocculant> xnox: I just brought it up for the CC - I've not the technical knowhow nor time to get into that now
<slangasek> xnox: there were subsequent IRC discussions that you were not a part of
<slangasek> xnox: and other MPs have been raised
<flocculant> slangasek: that being the MATE thing?
<flocculant> guessing ...
<xnox> flocculant, i think said font will drop to universe and (will rot there) =) you are free to take any artistic direction you want, and we have a tonne of packages in ubuntu, that have been removed in debian.
 * ogra_ thought he saw one that renamed it to xubuntu-base ... or is that unrelated ? 
<slangasek> flocculant: yes
<xnox> flocculant, so if you want to keep using it.... keep using it. it's just a font.
<flocculant> slangasek: ta :)
<mhall119> flocculant: slangasek: ok, if you guys can keep this progressing that would be great, otherwise please bring the CC back into the discussion if things become blocked or stall
<xnox> slangasek, ah, ok.
<flocculant> anyway - really got to go now - kids landing and apparently starving :)
<flocculant> thanks dholbach et al
<dholbach> thanks flocculant for the quick update
<mhall119> thank you flocculant
<flocculant> welcome :)
<dholbach> please let us know if we can help
<flocculant> yep - we know where you are :)
<dholbach> thanks! :)
<dholbach> #topic Any other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | CC meeting | Current topic: Any other business
<dholbach> Does anyone have any other business?
<mhall119> not I
<hggdh> nope
<sgclark> I have nothing at this time
<dholbach> ok cool - I have nothing to add either
<dholbach> thanks a lot everyone and have great rest of your day! :-)
<dholbach> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  4 18:01:23 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-02-04-17.00.moin.txt
<sakrecoer> thank you! :)
<elacheche_anis> Am late, sorry :(
<sarnold> elacheche_anis: no one's said anything for an hour and twenty minutes
<elacheche_anis> ah!
<sarnold> elacheche_anis: was this the meeting you wanted? http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-02-04-17.00.moin.txt  ?
<elacheche_anis> No sarnold.. It's the membership board meeting.. We have 2 meetings tonight, one by 20UTC and the other 22UTC.. I just wakked up my laptop from sleep mode and it was steel showing last night's time, so I thought I'm late x)
<sarnold> elacheche_anis: hooray :)
<elacheche_anis> :)
<wxl> there we go. now we're in the same window.
<Kilos> hmm...
<elacheche_anis> m-10
<tsimonq2> hello everybody, I'm ready when the board is
<teward> tsimonq2: 'when the board is' ?
<tsimonq2> teward: membership board :P
<wxl> teward: you shush it. this is none of your concern. now gimme all your coffee. :)
<marcoceppi> we'll start at the top of the hour
<jcastro> woo midwest!
<wxl> sounds good
<tsimonq2> :D
<elacheche_anis> wxl: you share that coffee dude :D
<tsimonq2> just got home, be back at the top of the hour :)
 * wxl shares teward's coffee with everyone, except for teward 
 * genii makes sure everyone gets a mug of coffee
<wxl> tsimonq2: you got 2 minutes.
 * teward steals wxl's money again
<Kilos> genii
<genii> Hi Kilos :)
<Kilos> dont forget me
 * teward takes the money and invests all of it in Canonical and Ubuntu Server
 * teward then runs away
<teward> (BTW, wxl and I kid around with each other all the time, pay no attention :) )
 * teward lurks
<elacheche_anis> :D
<tsimonq2> out of curiosity, who from the board is here?
<Kilos> many
<tsimonq2> Kilos: good :)
<wxl> yeah there's a horde of us
<tsimonq2> wxl: top of the hour!
<teward> there's also the agents of evil too
<tsimonq2> :P :D
<wxl> k marcoceppi you're on
<teward> so you get their agents lurking >:D
 * balloons envisions raging orcs rushing towards him
 * teward lurks again
<tsimonq2> teward: XD
<marcoceppi> #startmeeting 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  4 22:01:04 2016 UTC.  The chair is marcoceppi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<marcoceppi> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 2200 UTC meeting for February 4, 2016.
<marcoceppi> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<marcoceppi> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<marcoceppi> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<marcoceppi> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<marcoceppi> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<marcoceppi> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers amounts to at least +1, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<marcoceppi> Since there's only one applicant this should be a straight forward process
<marcoceppi> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<marcoceppi> #voters cyphermox Pendulum jared freeflying popey rickspencer3 marcoceppi Destine iulian IdleOne hggdh cwayne belkinsa PabloRubianes jcastro
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: Pendulum
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: jared
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: rickspencer3
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: Destine
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: iulian
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: IdleOne
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: cwayne
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: belkinsa
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine IdleOne PabloRubianes Pendulum belkinsa cwayne cyphermox freeflying hggdh iulian jared jcastro marcoceppi popey rickspencer3
<Kilos> hey
<marcoceppi> #voters Kilos
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine IdleOne Kilos PabloRubianes Pendulum belkinsa cwayne cyphermox freeflying hggdh iulian jared jcastro marcoceppi popey rickspencer3
<marcoceppi> #voters elacheche_anis
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine IdleOne Kilos PabloRubianes Pendulum belkinsa cwayne cyphermox elacheche_anis freeflying hggdh iulian jared jcastro marcoceppi popey rickspencer3
<elacheche_anis> :)
<tsimonq2> uhh wxl?
<wxl> o/
<marcoceppi> #voters wxl
<meetingology> Current voters: Destine IdleOne Kilos PabloRubianes Pendulum belkinsa cwayne cyphermox elacheche_anis freeflying hggdh iulian jared jcastro marcoceppi popey rickspencer3 wxl
<wxl> did we miss anyone else?
<marcoceppi> Wow that was a terrible paste job, sorry everyone
<Kilos> one short
<Kilos> postpone till next year
<wxl> yes we do
<cyphermox> err, not sure I should still be in the voters list
<wxl> i also heard from hggdh on irc (his vote), but he also said he'd be here
<teward> I was going to say there's a potential Conflict of INterest with regards to wxl voting, but he's cleared it up, obviously he knows to preempt my questions xD
<tsimonq2> :)
<wxl> that conflict of interest being that i've worked directly with tsimonq2 and mentored him quite a bit
<wxl> for the record
<teward> yep
<marcoceppi> Okay, so
<teward> i wasn't going to voice them, i was going to eat them
<marcoceppi> Now, without any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<marcoceppi> #subtopic tsimonq2
<marcoceppi> #topic tsimonq2
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 2200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: tsimonq2
<tsimonq2> (let me know when to jump in :) )
<marcoceppi> tsimonq2: please introduce yourself and supply us links to your application/wiki and lp!
 * wxl hands the microphone to tsimonq2 
<tsimonq2> Wiki Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tsimonq2 , Launchpad: https://launchpad.net/~tsimonq2 , Ubuntu US Wisconsin LoCo Team Wiki Page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WisconsinTeam
<tsimonq2> My name is Simon Quigley (tsimonq2) and I am from Wisconsin, USA. I am currently 13 years old(I turn 14 in March of 2016). I have been interested in computers for the past few years, and I started using Ubuntu in February 2015. My contributions started in late July after asking a question on a Lubuntu IRC channel and meeting friendly people. My forms of contribution include but are not limited to: Package and ISO QA, Ubuntu Weekly 
<tsimonq2> I hope you look favorably upon my application for Ubuntu Membership. If you have any questions/comments/concerns please let me know. Thank you.
 * teward raises his hand.
<teward> hindsight demands me to revise my testimonial slightly
<teward> or rather, to clarify it slightly
<teward> last-minute due to time constraints on my schedule prevented this statement.  I acknowledge tsimonq2's contributions are exceptionally substantial, and that I am not making statements to the contrary.  He has also shown substantial improvement in his professionalism.
<Kilos> ty teward
<teward> However, missing from my testimonial is that, while extrememly substantial, and 'somewhat' sustained, I would prefer to have seen slightly longer timeframe of contributions.  That said, I keep my testimonial at a +1, on a contingency of him shoing sustained contributions
<teward> Kilos: i wasn't 100% complete, sorry
<Kilos> np
<teward> s/shoing/showing/
<teward> (wxl knows this was one of my concerns previously)
 * wxl nods
<jcastro> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/reports/testers
<teward> I did, however, want to make that concern remain known here, with regards to my testimonial.
<jcastro> ^^^ that is pretty incredible
<tsimonq2> thank you jcastro :P
<tsimonq2> s/:P/:)/
<marcoceppi> tsimonq2: what are you looking to get into next in the community?
<tsimonq2> marcoceppi: development. do you need elaboration on that?
 * balloons can tell tsimonq2 has been quite busy testing images
<marcoceppi> tsimonq2: development, like apps, phone, snaps? or just in general
<tsimonq2> marcoceppi: I also plan on continuing existing contributions
<tsimonq2> marcoceppi: looking at becoming a Contributing Developer
<tsimonq2> although I am curious about snaps/Ubuntu Touch as well
<marcoceppi> they are pretty neat, imo
<tsimonq2> marcoceppi: maybe you can teach me XD
<marcoceppi> :)
<marcoceppi> any other questions for tsimonq2?
 * teward has one
<teward> though i'm not on the MB
<marcoceppi> feel free to ask
<elacheche_anis> No questions here :) teward go ahead :)
<teward> tsimonq2: you state that you're looking into getting into development.  A lot of development also involves bug work and triage, and I know you have some exposure to that in the ISO testing, do you plan on looking even more into bug triage as part of your development endeavors?  And if so, do you intend to look into actively helping with general bug triage as well?
<jcastro> no questions from me, I feel like your work pretty much speaks for itself
<teward> I only ask, given my exposure to Server Development co-requiring bug work :P
<tsimonq2> well I am part of the Bug Squad
<tsimonq2> didn't put that in there :)
<tsimonq2> teward: but one of my goals is to continue with that, yes
<teward> cool, I look forward to seeing you continue to excel there, and to see you continue on with your endeavors.
<teward> No other questions from me :)
 * teward goes back into silent lurking mode
<tsimonq2> marcoceppi: not to be pushy or anything, but I just want to make sure this was looked at: https://launchpad.net/~tsimonq2/+participation
 * elacheche_anis is ready to vote.
<marcoceppi> Unless there's any other questions, lets put it to a vote!
<marcoceppi> #vote tsimonq2
<meetingology> Please vote on: tsimonq2
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<wxl> +1 keep up the good work!
<meetingology> +1 keep up the good work! received from wxl
<Kilos> +1 keep it up laddy
<meetingology> +1 keep it up laddy received from Kilos
<elacheche_anis> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elacheche_anis
<jcastro> +1 no brainer, you're pretty awesome
<meetingology> +1 no brainer, you're pretty awesome received from jcastro
<marcoceppi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from marcoceppi
<marcoceppi> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: tsimonq2
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<balloons> congrats tsimonq2!
<tsimonq2> thank you all :D :D :D
<Kilos> tsimonq2 welcome on board
<marcoceppi> congrats, welcome!
<wxl> added to members; wiki page changed
<wxl> congrats, tsimonq2 !
<elacheche_anis> congrats tsimonq2
<elacheche_anis> :)
<tsimonq2> thank you to the board :)
<marcoceppi> this concludes the queue of applicants for today, unless there's any other business we are done
<Kilos> ty for chairing marcoceppi
<elacheche_anis> Thanks marcoceppi :)
<wxl> thanks marcoceppi and board
<marcoceppi> thank you Kilos wxl elacheche_anis jcastro for your attendance, thank you for the testimonials, and welcome tsimonq2
<marcoceppi> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  4 22:19:52 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-02-04-22.01.moin.txt
<tsimonq2> thanks marcoceppi :D
<wxl> can someone email uwn?
<wxl> ok i guess i'm emailing uwn since everyone's going to sleep :)
<marcoceppi> wxl: <3
<wxl> well you did chair, marcoceppi, so.. :)
<Kilos> night all
 * marcoceppi rumages around for that email
<wxl> no i mean i'll do it :)
<wxl> besides i got it handy
<marcoceppi> wxl: oh <3
<tsimonq2> wxl: Paul White? already knows, he pinged me on #ubuntu-news
<wxl> tsimonq2: he said he'll add you "when the membership board email arrives"
<PaulW2U> But UWN still needs an email :)
<tsimonq2> wxl: ahh okay, thanks for clarifying :)
<elacheche_anis> One of the board members will send that :)
<elacheche_anis> wxl marcoceppi who'll send the mail to the news team? :D Otherwise I'll send it tomorrow morning (it's almost midnight here)
<wxl> email sent
<elacheche_anis> thank you boss
<hggdh> darn!
<tsimonq2> hggdh: ?
<hggdh> tsimonq2: I wanted to be in for your application
<tsimonq2> hggdh: okay, well I got it :D
<hggdh> tsimonq2: not that would make much of a difference, I was +1 already :-)
<tsimonq2> :)
<hggdh> tsimonq2: so... welcome in!
<tsimonq2> thanks hggdh
<tsimonq2> :)
<hggdh> tsimonq2: believe me, the pleasure is mine (and ours, for the Membership Board)
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-30
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 30 16:31:40 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> no announcements today
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> short week this week (off firday)
<jdstrand> mostly caught up on snappy reviews. After driving them to 0 by eod on Friday, now have 3 followup reviews that came in today
<jdstrand> I plan to get back to seccomp arg filtering policy this week
<jdstrand> I'll move the miscellaneous review tools updates card if I have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place
<mdeslaur> currently working on openssl updates
<mdeslaur> have a bunch of pending updates to test and publish
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie?
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week.
<sbeattie> I'll have kernel USNs to publish this week
<sbeattie> I need to finish testing the openssh update I was working.
<sbeattie> And then I'll poke at the list of outstanding issues
<sbeattie> That's it for me. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> I'm on bug triage this week
<tyhicks> cve triage last week kept me from making much progress on work items
<tyhicks> I need to submit my second revision of seccomp patches to lkml
<tyhicks> workaround an apparmor utils bug that is keeping me from uploading apparmor 2.11 to zesty
<tyhicks> I have 2 embargoed issues
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I need to finish up with my end of the dconf work
<jjohansen> I have some patches to send up to the kt
<jjohansen> a reply to tetsuo to finish up and send out to lkml
<jjohansen> and I really need to finish looking at casey's latest round of stacking patches
<jjohansen> then if time more of the upstreaming work, plan is securityfs bits, that I didn't get to last week
<jjohansen> thats it for me, sarnold you're up
<sarnold> I'm on cve triage this week, working on MIRs in the remaining time
<sarnold> I expect to finish the apache mellon module mir today or tomorrow depending upon how busy MITRE's been, so it would be nice to have a new top priority soon
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I've got an oxide update to do this week, and I expect to have chromium to sponsor as well
<chrisccoulson> Hopefully no other updates - thanks to a Firefox respin I ended up having to test that twice last week
<tyhicks> :(
<chrisccoulson> I've got a Firefox regression to fix, but that shouldn't take much time
<chrisccoulson> Other than that, I'm finishing off tests for work I did in oxide last week, then I plan to move on to bug 1637195 which should mostly be a copy / paste job from webbrowser-app
<ubottu> bug 1637195 in Oxide "Add JS dialogs to UbuntuWebView" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1637195
<chrisccoulson> And I need to make some changes to my firefox menubar patch and send that upstream, although there's currently nobody assigned to review that anyway
<chrisccoulson> That's me done
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week
<ratliff> I have a few more updates for Snappy 15.04 to process
<ratliff> Then I will work some on the notification process
<ratliff> that's it for me this week
<ratliff> back to you tyhicks
<tyhicks> thanks!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/pen.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/inn.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/consolekit.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/vxl.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/lwipv6.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 30 16:49:54 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-01-30-16.31.moin.txt
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<ratliff> thanks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
<slashd> whois slashd
<slashd> disregard ^, forgot the "/"
<rbasak> o/
<sil2100> o/
<rbasak> Who's here?
<rbasak> I have a hard stop in about an hour (depends on how long a drive somewhere will be).
<chiluk> o/
<cyphermox> I'm here.
<chiluk> hey cyphermox
<sil2100> Who's driving the meeting?
<chiluk> bdmurray ?? dmb meeting?
<sil2100> The agenda mentions Adam
<sil2100> chiluk: bdmurray won't be around sadly
<rbasak> It's been stuck at Adam for a long time :-/
<rbasak> I'd prefer not to chair today please. Too many distractions here right now, and note my hard stop above.
<sil2100> I was chairing the last meeting, the additional one we had because of the holidays
<sil2100> But still, we miss one person...
<chiluk> infinity shows away as well
<chiluk> can't we just use his absence as passive consent?
<sarnold> :)
<chiluk> there's really no way infinity would admit that I'm coredev material... then again, I'm not sure if he'd say that about most coredevs.
<sil2100> hah ;)
<rbasak> It is possible to hold a meeting and leave it to the ML to make a vote quorate.
<chiluk> I'm fine with that.
<sil2100> Yeah, I guess if we won't get quorrum I'm +1 on continuing that on the ML
<sil2100> Since we can't postpone this forever
<chiluk> yeah it's been almost 2 months now.
<chiluk> well since I was put on the agenda.
<sil2100> We'll just have to make sure that the vote continues on the ML, since those tend to take a very long time as well if left as-is
<rbasak> Is the sponsorship miner down?
<rbasak> There is https://launchpad.net/~chiluk/+uploaded-packages
<rbasak> Which should be a subset I think.
<sil2100> It works for me
<chiluk> http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsor=&sponsor_search=name&sponsoree=*Chiluk&sponsoree_search=name
<chiluk> is more complete
<rbasak> Hmm, working now.
<chiluk> but still not complete.
<sil2100> cyphermox: can you chair? We could do as per rbasak's proposition - start the candidate review here and finish on the ML
<sil2100> Ok then, I'll chair again in this case
<sil2100> Need a minute though
<sil2100> #startmeeting DMB meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 30 19:13:59 2017 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic:
<sil2100> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<sil2100> rbasak to get mapreri's PPU additions done by the TB (carried over) <- is it still in progress?
<rbasak> I've not managed to address anything for the DMB yet this year - sorry. I believe it's still in progress.
<rbasak> IIRC, the TB did do something for us. I need to find out where it is.
<sil2100> Ok, so I guess the other one is carried over as well
<sil2100> Let's skip to the next point then
<sil2100> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
<sil2100> I see we still have David's application on the agenda
<sil2100> Does anyone know if the vote for that got finalized on the ML?
<sil2100> I at least don't remember getting the rest of the votes for that one
<rbasak> I don't remember seeing any further votes on that.
<rbasak> Yeah, no replies AFAICS.
<mapreri> rbasak, sil2100: ISTR my PPU addition also required voting.
<mapreri> when did those happen?
<sil2100> I don't think single additions require a vote, right?
<sil2100> Just one DMB member, if he decides it's fitting, can do the permission changes - or am I wrong?
<rbasak> I think (and said) otherwise.
<rbasak> AFAIK, a packageset addition can be done by one DMB member verifying that the proposed new package meets the packageset criteria in the description.
<rbasak> But I'm not aware of anything like that for PPU.
<sil2100> Ah, indeed
<sil2100> You might be right
<mapreri> Yeah, I'm reporting due to what rbasak told me privately, given that I completely fail at finding a through description of DMB workflows :)
<rbasak> There may be a policy I don't recall or never read about.
<rbasak> All I know is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase
<rbasak> But, I think a vote for mapreri should be straightforward.
<mapreri> oh, consider that I'm DD requiring PPU for a package I maintain, that might streamline the process for this particular case.
<sil2100> Should we vote? We don't have a quorrum so it'd have to go through the ML as well
<chiluk> if only I had a vote I'd vote for you mapreri.\
<rbasak> Do we have a list of what mapreri can already upload?
<mapreri> rbasak: pbuilder and libreoffice-dictionaries are in my PPU list from main; then I'm also MOTU.
<mapreri> chiluk: :)
<rbasak> mapreri: how long have you had those?
<mapreri> rbasak: iirc early December 2016
<rbasak> Ah, OK.
<sil2100> Indeed:
<sil2100> Archive Upload Rights for mapreri: archive 'primary', source package 'pbuilder'
<sil2100> Archive Upload Rights for mapreri: archive 'primary', source package 'libreoffice-dictionaries'Archive Upload Rights for mapreri: archive 'primary', source package 'pbuilder'
<rbasak> mapreri: how long have you been maintaining inkscape in Debian?
<mapreri> rbasak: yeah, recently.
<sil2100> Uh, double-paste I guess
<mapreri> uh
<mapreri> some time 2015 i think
<rbasak> 2015?
<rbasak> OK
<mapreri> my first thing in the changelog is 2014
<rbasak> I'm ready to vote then. Shame we don't have quorum :-/
<rbasak> (but we can do a partial vote now and try to finish it on the ML later)
<sil2100> Yeah, let's vote, I'll push the rest to the ML
<mapreri> rbasak: (if it's still interesting)  [ Mattia Rizzolo ]\n  * debian/control: add myself to Uploaders => Apr 2015
<sil2100> #vote for mapreri to gain additional PPU rights for inkscape
<meetingology> Please vote on: for mapreri to gain additional PPU rights for inkscape
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<rbasak> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from rbasak
<sil2100> cyphermox: you still around?
<chiluk> sil2100: rbasak from KB "DDs who are PPU through the normal process can apply by email to have their access extended to further packages they (or a team they are a member of) maintain. This only requires one DMB member to agree in order to pass."
<rbasak> Ah
<sil2100> Oh
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for mapreri to gain additional PPU rights for inkscape
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<chiluk> sounds like it's a pass  mapreri
<rbasak> OK, done then. Sorry mapreri, I could have just done it when you first asked.
<mapreri> Oh.  Well, guess all learned something today :)
<sil2100> Should I add an action item for each of us to look through the KB again? ;)
<chiluk> it's all the way at the bottom.. no one reads that far.
<sil2100> Anyway, let's continue
<mapreri> Thank you, anyway!
<sil2100> mapreri: you're welcome!
<sil2100> rbasak: will you handle that?
<rbasak> Does someone want to take an action to sort that with the TB?
<rbasak> Sure.
<sil2100> Thanks :)
<sil2100> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
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<cyphermox> sorry, i was on the phone
<sil2100> #subtopic Dave Chiluk
<sil2100> chiluk: could you introduce yourself?
<chiluk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/chiluk/CoreDevApplication
<chiluk> I've been working for Canonical as a Sustaining engineer for the last 4 years fixing Ubuntu advantage customer issues.
<chiluk> many of which don't result in uploads.
<chiluk> I've had a LP id since 2008, and I think I started with Ubuntu in 06..
<chiluk> so it's been a while.
<chiluk> I mostly fix packages in main, hence the Coredev app instead of MOTU.
<chiluk> and I also mostly do SRU's and not development uploads.
<chiluk> actually probably 80% of my uploads are SRUs.
<chiluk> which makes getting fixes out a real bear..
<chiluk> since I currently need two other devs to approve any of my fixes.
<chiluk> I think that's most of it.
<rbasak> Two questions: 1) what are your goals with respect to upload rights; and 2) is not having core dev blocking you at the moment, apart from uploading SRUs, and if so, how?
<rbasak> IOW, are you asking for core dev just to fix the SRU problem?
<chiluk> rbasak: 1) I'd like upload rights so I no longer have to harass existing core devs.
<chiluk> 2.) it is blocking me at the moment. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qemu/+bug/1655225
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1655225 in qemu (Ubuntu) "Under heavy load qemu hits bdrv_error_action: Assertion `error >= 0' failed" [Medium,New]
<chiluk> is a good example
<chiluk> mostly I feel that me not having core dev puts an undo burden on the other core devs in the U.S. Timezones.
<chiluk> as I'm part of a larger team with few core devs.
<rbasak> Are you familiar with the conversation with - slashd I think?
<chiluk> rbasak I am.
<chiluk> and rbasak I'm not sure if that would be useful.
<rbasak> I'm sorry I haven't addressed that yet.
<rbasak> But I am interested in your opinion. Please go on.
<chiluk> rbasak, I'm also TIL on a few packages ..
<rbasak> (I'm sorry I have to run in 20 minutes, otherwise I'd chat for longer right now)
<chiluk> rbasak, also I'm not sure if having SRU only upload is even possible given the structure of teams in LP.
<chiluk> I do like the general idea, but I don't think it's doable given the current structure of development in Ubuntu.
<chiluk> unless there's something that LP can do that I'm not aware of.
<rbasak> My concern is that based on your application I feel that your experience is quite narrow. I would like to hear what others think of this kind of case. I appreciate the pain and I want to fix that. But does that mean it's appropriate to change ACLs bits to wide open?
<sil2100> chiluk: I have a question regarding a recent discussion I saw on #ubuntu-devel - it seems one of your merges didn't have a correct changelog, right?
<rbasak> I'm really quite torn, and I think the answer to that question is bigger than just me or a few people on the DMB.
<chiluk> sil2100: yes that is correct.
<sil2100> chiluk: why was that? Did you put non-remaining changes into the 'remaining changes' part by mistake?
<rbasak> And I'm interested to hear what some really-long-time Ubuntu devs think.
<sil2100> (like, new changes)
<chiluk> sil2100: it was a merge I did this morning that I was TIL on.  and yes it was a mistake... the change still existed, but it had been merged into debian..
<sil2100> Ah, ok
<chiluk> sil2100: I also do my best to get the corresponding dd or previous UCD to do the upload... which is part of the reason slangasek caught that one.
<chiluk> rbasak what other things do you think I need to broaden my experience?
<chiluk> I guess another reason I'd like to get coredev is so that I can manage series tracks in bugs.
<chiluk> I think there's another team for that, but coredev is definitely included in that group.
<chiluk> exuse me for a sec, but I need to make sure my dog is not being eaten by a coyote.
<cyphermox> well, everyone makes mistakes in changelogs every once in a while, or in merging anyway. I usually first go through making changelog and then ripping things out if it shows that they are in fact merged or no longer require
<sil2100> chiluk: during your work on packages, did you have a lot experience with dealing with autopkgtests, proposed migration and the like?
<rbasak> chiluk: I think if I were to filter SRUs out of your endorsements and your sponsored uploads, it would be a bit thin. I'm not sure we'd give core dev to a hypothetical applicant with that application.
<rbasak> Now, it may be that Ubuntu devs say "yes but that's fine", and that's an open question that I'm not sure about.
<rbasak> I intend to prioritise getting that thread started about this.
<chiluk> sil2100: I did have to deal with autopkgtest failures with my core-utils upload, and possibly a few others.
<chiluk> but there are only a few.
<sil2100> chiluk: did you always make sure that the packages that were sponsored for you made it to the release pocket?
<chiluk> always..
<chiluk> that's part of our teams process.
<rbasak> I need to run very soon.
<chiluk> we don't close our customer cases, until our package uploads hit the -udates archives.
<sil2100> Ok, I had one more question, but rbasak maybe you want me to start the vote now?
<chiluk> rbasak, additionally we are usually the first to do verification on the uploads as well..
<rbasak> I would like to defer my vote for now, pending any outcome of the thread. I'm sorry I have not followed up on that yet. I will prioritise doing that.
<sil2100> Ok
<rbasak> Especially now that there are two blocked on it.
<rbasak> I'm sorry for the pain and I really want to unblock you, but I also feel that it's a bigger issue that we should resolve, and that it's important for us to be consistent.
<sil2100> In this case what I would propose is to take the vote to the mailing list in that case
<chiluk> rbasak: completely understood.
<chiluk> I just feel this is the next logical step for me to become more efficient.. and for the rest of the team to be more efficient by not having to micro-manage my uploads.
<sil2100> There everyone will be able to think his decision though
<sil2100> chiluk: ok, one semi-technical question - let's say you work on a package (or maybe sponsor some upload for someone) where you add a new binary dependency to a package
<rbasak> chiluk: to be clear, I'd be happy with you uploading SRUs without a sponsor.
<rbasak> Based on your application.
<rbasak> I'm just not sure that core dev is the right step, and that's what I'd like wider opinion on.
<chiluk> thanks rbasak
<sil2100> chiluk: what would be the first few things you'd need to check in such a case?
<rbasak> I'm going to run as I need to be somewhere.
<sil2100> rbasak: see you o/
<rbasak> Sorry I couldn't help more today.
<rbasak> o/
<chiluk> sil2100: add to debian/control, check for additional dependencies, then check for other packages that depend on the package I changed...
<chiluk> manifest for iso's may need to change as well.
<chiluk> also rebuilding may be necessary for all related packages
<chiluk> depending on the change.
<sil2100> chiluk: ok, now let's say the package you work on is in main - does that opt for some additional change?
<sil2100> I mean, additional check?
<chiluk> yes.. if the dependency is in universe
<sil2100> That's what I wanted to hear
<chiluk> that universe package may have to be pulled into main as well...
<chiluk> I haven't had to do that yet.
<chiluk> but I'm aware of the restrictions related to it.
<sil2100> It very frequently happens with packages that Canonical is upstream for
<sil2100> Anyway
<chiluk> fortunately I will rarely be the uploader for those.
<sil2100> Ok, those are all questions from me
<sil2100> cyphermox: any questions?
<sil2100> If not, I guess let's move this to a mailing thread and do the vote there
<chiluk> I'm ok with that.
<chiluk> infinity can reject me there.
<chiluk> because infinity.
<sil2100> Noo, Adam's not like that!
<sil2100> He's a good guy, really
<sil2100> For realz
<sil2100> Anyway, thanks for showing up and sorry for not being able to sort it out here
<chiluk> sil2100: i know... I just like to give him crap.
<sil2100> ;)
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 30 19:59:02 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-01-30-19.13.moin.txt
<sil2100> I'll send out the e-mail in a bit
<sil2100> Thanks everyone!
<chiluk> thanks sil2100, rbasak, cyphermox... fortunately my dog was not eaten, but she did find something she's trying to kill.
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-01-31
<sridhar__> hello
<sridhar__> hai
<rbasak> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Jan 31 16:00:02 2017 UTC.  The chair is rbasak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<rbasak> o/
<smb> o\
<rbasak> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meetin
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meetin
<powersj> o/
<cpaelzer> o/
<rbasak> #info There were no action items from the last meeting.
<rbasak> #topic Development Release
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Development Release
<rbasak> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ZestyZapus/ReleaseSchedule
<rbasak> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-z-server-core
<rbasak> Any active work that may need wider communication?
<cpaelzer> here
<cpaelzer> DPDK blocked a bunch of totally unrelated uploads due to testing on reverse dependencies
<cpaelzer> a new upload just hit zesty proposed - I hope this is resolved tomorrow then for anyone who might have been blocked by it
<rbasak> Thank you!
<rbasak> #info DPDK blocked unrelated uploads; should be cleared by a just uploaded new upload
<rbasak> Anything else for Zesty development?
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<caribou> woops, forgot to prepare :-/
<caribou> do you mind coming back at me in a few minutes ?
<rbasak> Sure
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<powersj> Last week, completed the remaining bug triage weeks for 2016 (12 weeks in total). Got arm64 system connected up to our jenkins. Also the ppc64el system connected to the ISO testing jenkins and is running ISO tests now. Started work on the curtin SRU exception document as well.
<rharper> o/
<cpaelzer> yeah powersj
<powersj> This week, wrap up my draft of the SRU exception doc for Curtin, get the arm64 tests going, look more at the ppc64 ISO tests, some cloud-init tox and make file changes, and work to add a bit of cleaning up the slaves after tests runs so we aren't getting any false negatives. Maybe look into etckeeper merge (thanks jgrimm)
<cpaelzer> powersj: I just submitted a MP for the QA tests on qemu
<powersj> cpaelzer: ok!
<cpaelzer> powersj: that should resolve our transient issue on stage 4
<cpaelzer> powersj: when 2.8 is done we will sit down and modify the call args slightly
<cpaelzer> powersj: as mentioned last week I'll ping you when I'm ready
<powersj> sounds good
<rbasak> Thanks powersj!
<rbasak> Does anyone have any questions for powersj?
<rbasak> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
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<smb> Nothing new here.
<rbasak> Any questions for smb?
<rbasak> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
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<rbasak> Any CfPs?
<rbasak> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
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<rbasak> Any events?
<jgrimm> o/ i'm here now, reading backscroll
<nacc> o/ me too
<rbasak> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<rbasak> jgrimm, nacc: we can circle back if you'd like.
<rbasak> Anyone with AOB?
<rbasak> caribou: are you ready to circle back now?
<caribou> yep
<cpaelzer> I have a list of SRUs as well this time, collected a few onto my active-task list - so here FYI for all and caribou in particular
<rbasak> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (caribou)
<cpaelzer> caribou: you first
<caribou> sosreport : LP: #1356211, LP: #1366103, LP: #1447695, LP: #1614052
<caribou> ifupdown : LP: #1447715
<caribou> os-prober : LP: #1579609
<caribou> multipath-tools : LP: #1621340
<caribou> python-os-brick : LP: #1623700
<caribou> qemu : LP: #1640382
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1356211 in sosreport (Ubuntu Trusty) "cannot collect rotated syslog.1" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1356211
<caribou> systemd : LP: #1647485
<caribou> krb5 : LP: #1648901
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1366103 in sosreport (Ubuntu Trusty) "sosreport doesn't collect all data from /etc/apparmor.d/" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1366103
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447695 in sosreport (Ubuntu Trusty) "sosreport 3.2 does not collect systemd information" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447695
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1614052 in sosreport (Ubuntu Yakkety) "SOSREPORT need to collect OPAL msglog" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1614052
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447715 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Xenial) "dhclient -6: Can't bind to dhcp address: Cannot assign requested address" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447715
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1579609 in os-prober (Ubuntu Xenial) "os-prober bug resulting in possible FS corruption" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1579609
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621340 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU]'multipath -r' causes /dev/mapper/<wwid> being removed" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621340
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1623700 in python-os-brick (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU] multipath iscsi does not logout of sessions on xenial" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1623700
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1640382 in qemu (Ubuntu Trusty) "Segfault event notifier because of race condition" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1640382
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647485 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "NVMe symlinks broken by devices with spaces in model or serial strings" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647485
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1648901 in krb5 (Ubuntu Xenial) "SPNEGO crash on mechanism failure" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1648901
<caribou> I'm on the sosreport ones
<caribou> cpaelzer: how about yours ?
<cpaelzer> SRUs I'm currently involved to sponsor, guide or prepare myself
<cpaelzer>  Trusty - Qemu guide seyeongkim to migrate out of proposed - bug 1587039
<ubottu> bug 1587039 in qemu (Ubuntu Trusty) "aio: strengthen memory barriers for bottom half scheduling" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1587039
<cpaelzer>  Trusty - Qemu guide seyeongkim to migrate out of proposed - bug 1640382
<cpaelzer>  Trusty - Qemu test and sponsor fix (chiluk) - bug 1655225
<ubottu> bug 1655225 in qemu (Ubuntu) "Under heavy load qemu hits bdrv_error_action: Assertion `error >= 0' failed" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1655225
<cpaelzer>  Xenial - Qemu Machine Type, need 2.8 in Z (cpaelzer) - bug 1641532
<ubottu> bug 1641532 in qemu (Ubuntu Zesty) "machine-types trusty and utopic are not unique (depend on the qemu version)" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641532
<cpaelzer>  Xenial - Qemu image azure (nacc) - bug 1490611
<ubottu> bug 1490611 in qemu (Ubuntu Xenial) "Using qemu >=2.2.1 to convert raw->VHD (fixed) adds extra padding to the result file, which Microsoft Azure rejects as invalid" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1490611
<cpaelzer>  Xenial - Qemu toleration for power8NVL (cpaelzer) - bug 1656112
<cpaelzer>  Yakkety - Qemu Machine Type, need 2.8 in Z (cpaelzer) - bug 1641532
<ubottu> bug 1656112 in qemu (Ubuntu) "Power S822LC (8335-GTB) failes KVM guest cert test with kvm_init_vcpu failed: Invalid argument" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1656112
<cpaelzer>  Xenial - Libirt nodecpumap (cpaelzer) - bug 1659769
<ubottu> bug 1659769 in libvirt (Ubuntu Xenial) "virsh nodecpumap --pretty shows unwanted cpu map output" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1659769
<cpaelzer>  Xenial - Libirt net script startup, needs bisect (cpaelzer) - bug 1620407
<ubottu> bug 1620407 in libvirt (Ubuntu Xenial) "vm startup broken when interface definition has script tag" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1620407
<cpaelzer>  Xenial - Libirt zfs apparmor (cpaelzer) - bug 1641618
<ubottu> bug 1641618 in libvirt (Ubuntu Xenial) "Apparmor denials caused by virt-aa-helper trying to read zvol devices (/dev/zdX) should be silenced" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641618
<jgrimm> wheee
<rbasak> #info SRUs are pending for sosreport, ifupdown, os-prober, multipath-tools, python-os-brick, qemu, systemd, krb5 and libvirt.
<caribou> rbasak: I'll add that ^ to my report
<rbasak> I'm not sure we need the LP bug references tbh. Anyone interested can filter for bug tasks for stable releases.
<rbasak> caribou: that'd be handy. Auto-minuting FTW. Thanks!
<caribou> rbasak: fine with me
<rbasak> Any questions for caribou?
<rbasak> jgrimm: anything you'd like to circle back on?
<jgrimm> rbasak, no sir
<rbasak> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<jgrimm> thanks rbasak
<caribou> thanks rbasak
<powersj> thanks rbasak
<rbasak> The next meeting will be at Tue 7 Feb 16:00:00 UTC.
<cpaelzer> thank you
<rbasak> I don't know who will chair. We shall see :-)
<rbasak> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Jan 31 16:13:10 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-01-31-16.00.moin.txt
<cpaelzer> rharper: is the next in list and I moved you off to the end rbasak
<rbasak> Thanks :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-02-02
<sil2100> o/
<robru> \o
<chiluk> o\
<cyphermox> o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  2 16:02:23 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<caribou> o/
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox tdaitx xnox chiluk mwhudson)
<slangasek> sil2100 infinity robru tdaitx caribou xnox bdmurray chiluk doko cyphermox mwhudson slangasek barry
<barry> two weeks in a row!
<cyphermox> his RNG is really bad.
<sil2100> Wow
<sil2100> I won?
<infinity> Or lost.
<sil2100> - Landing team work, silo coordination
<sil2100> - SRU reviews
<sil2100> - DMB meeting, discussing candidates
<sil2100> - Working on updating the kubuntu packageset for zesty (duped)
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * Playing with manual GUID changing, not satisfied with that
<sil2100>   * Working-around multiple cases of libparted being a smartass
<sil2100>   * Filling in bugs for pyparted issues
<sil2100>   * Testing the pyparted partitioning branch, working on tests
<sil2100> - Discussions regarding Bileto snap support and OTA-15 work
<sil2100> (done)
<gaughen> o/
<infinity> * Helping hunt down and land fixes for kernel issues with HWE kernel
<infinity> * More back and forth with Timo on the X HWE stack
<infinity> * More work on CD/livefs changes for 16.04.2
<infinity> * Interviews with __redacted__ and __redacted__
<infinity> * Misc #ubuntu-devel mentorship and such
<infinity> * Misc AA and SRU work
<infinity> (done)
<robru> britney
<robru> * piuparts disabling actually rolled out
<robru> * several iterations towards britney emailing people about stuck packages
<robru> (done)
<tdaitx> = OpenJDK 7 Update
<tdaitx>   - Continued working on the security update backports
<tdaitx>   - Only 1 patch of 19 is missing, partially backported
<tdaitx>   - Besides the missing patch, the package builds fine
<tdaitx> = Other
<tdaitx>   - Going to Brussels tomorrow, most probably offline in the afternoon
<tdaitx> (done)
<gaughen> safe travels tdaitx!
<caribou> BugFix :
<caribou> LP: #1638695
<caribou> LP: #1654600
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1638695 in python2.7 (Ubuntu) "Python 2.7.12 performance regression" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1638695
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1654600 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Yakkety) "unattended-upgrade-shutdown hangs when /var is a separate filesystem" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1654600
<tdaitx> gaughen, thanks!
<caribou> a few meetings
<caribou> (done)
<bdmurray> xnox: ?
<xnox> 16.04.2 s390x testing (uploaded SRU to fix degraded boot by default)
<xnox> z kvm patch list review for 17.04
<xnox> docker.io adt tests (in progress, to catch non working docker on armhf/s390x)
<xnox> run tests on lipfm4 (to resolve the final query for MIR)
<xnox> new upstream release of s390-tools (including FTBFS fixes)
<xnox> systemd SRU for deputy trusty (in progress)
<xnox> appx repackaging cloud images automation (in progress)
<xnox> have a bit of flu from last weeks skiing =/ getting better now
<xnox> brussels for fosdem over the weekend.
<xnox> ..
<bdmurray> short week due to being out Monday
<bdmurray> wrote unit tests for apport gdb sandbox branch
<bdmurray> updated apport gdb sandbox branch after reviewer feedback
<bdmurray> merged apport gdb sandbox branch to trunk
<bdmurray> updated apport on Launchpad retracer (porter-i386)
<bdmurray> research into RT re /tmp/apport_sandbox folders left over on prod retracers
<bdmurray> investigation into apport test-crashes build failure for zesty
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> sent email to team regarding gdb issues
<bdmurray> clean up of duplicates of bug LP: #1385817
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1385817 in sysvinit (Ubuntu) "initscripts package fails to upgrade if there are local init scripts on the system with no LSB headers" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1385817
<bdmurray> interview work (prep, actually interview, review)
<infinity> Doesn't "done" usually come at the end?
<chiluk> yeah I was wondering
<chiluk> anyhow
<chiluk> * Core dev application moved to devel-permissions mailing list. cyphermox, infinity, bdmurray, sil2100 please see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/devel-permissions/2017-January/001019.html
<chiluk> * A little merging, and some bzr merge education from cyphermox.
<chiluk> * Worked at freeing up qemu proposed queue for to allow room for lp:#1655225
<chiluk> * Working to put together an acceptable patch for LP:#1650067
<chiluk> * Working through bisect of LP:#1647389 every iteration takes a long time because the updates seem to break my cloud, juju resets my nova.conf, and testing needs to run for a long time.
<chiluk> -done-
<cyphermox> for what it will give you, that was all outdated ;)
<sil2100> chiluk: yeah, will send a vote later today or tomorrow ;)
<chiluk> i think we are all waiting for the fallout from rbasak's proposal.
<cyphermox> no doko?
<cyphermox> heh
<gaughen> doko said he'd be a little late
<cyphermox> - nplan release 0.17; some autopkgtest issues left to fix (GAH!)
<cyphermox> - os-prober debugging (halp!)
<cyphermox> - debugging LVM+crypto installs failing to boot (fallout from no /boot for LVM) (bug LP: #1659448)
<cyphermox> - ubiquity upload for the above.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1659448 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Zesty) "grub fails to install bootloader for zesty LVM with Encryption" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1659448
<gaughen> so maybe try again later
<cyphermox> - fixing open-iscsi autopkgtests finally.
<cyphermox> - wpa 2.6 merge
<cyphermox> - rebuilding devscripts for zesty
<cyphermox> - DMB: packageset update/review, automating the process a bit
<cyphermox> - discussed IPv6 support w/ stgraber (whether we support ipv6.disable=1)
<cyphermox> (done)
<cyphermox> infinity: just curious, what are the livefs/CD changes for 16.04.2; anything really special, or just the usual?
<infinity> cyphermox: Pretty much the usual.
<cyphermox> ah
<barry> no mwhudson i guess.  slangasek?
<slangasek>  * doctors appointments and antibiotics
<slangasek>  * SRUs: snapd in trusty \o/, newer snapcraft everywhere, miscellaneous reviews
<slangasek>  * going deeper down the cpc cloud-image-mastering rabbit hole
<slangasek>   * planning for partner meetings
<slangasek>  * discussions on POWER roadmap for 16.04.3
<slangasek>  * interviews for team opening
<slangasek> (done)
<barry> u-i: LP: #1641727 (very close)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1641727 in Ubuntu Image "Support multiple volumes per gadget.yaml" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641727
<barry> debuntu: LP: #1647204; debian bug #852289 & passlib 1.7.1-1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1647204 in gpgme1.0 (Ubuntu) "1.8.0-2 FTBFS in zesty 17.04" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1647204
<ubottu> Debian bug 852289 in src:python-passlib "python-passlib: please make the build reproducible (timestamps)" [Wishlist,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/852289
<barry> misc: interviews; review
<barry> https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-murray/apport/sandbox-gdb/+merge/315619;
<barry> help caribou re: 2.7.6 v 2.7.12 perf regression on trusty
<barry> --done--
<gaughen> bdmurray, it's your fault Steve's on antibiotics
<cyphermox> Steve is slangasick?
<gaughen> bdmurray, you and your juanita chips
<bdmurray> Its not my fault he's weak
<slangasek> it's possible bdmurray was in the factory filing down the points of the chips
<slangasek> any other questions?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> ok anything else? :)
<cyphermox> anything fun for POWER coming up?
<slangasek> there's a next generation of the architecture in the wings?
<cyphermox> oh, just that.
<infinity> Mmm, wings.
<slangasek> but won't have much impact on us
<cyphermox> ok
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  2 16:22:11 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-02-02-16.02.moin.txt
<caribou> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<doko> too late ...
<wmack_> Hello Pavlos
<pavlos> hi wmack_
<toddc> hello all
<wmack_> hello toddc
<markthomas> Hello.
<MajB> Hi folks
<MajB> I have seldom been this early for a meeting in my life.
<wmack_> makes two of us...
<MajB> That would probably apply to markthomas as well
<markthomas> Yes.
<toddc> I am also on bbb.azloco.net
<wmack_> The Intel network isn't letting me into bbb, so can't join you there today
<MajB> wait
<toddc> wmack_: np
<nzoueidi> o/
<pleia2> o/
<toddy> o/
<wmack_> o?
<toddy> :D
<toddc> +1
<pavlos> +1
<markthomas> +1
<wmack_> +1
<MajB> +1
<superfly> +1
<wmack_> the ones have it :)
<elacheche_anis> wmack_ markthomas pavlos Are you ready guys?
<nzoueidi> Alright so, all the candidates are here I guess
<pavlos> yes
<markthomas> Yes.
<wmack_> yes
<nzoueidi> OK, then
<nzoueidi> #startmeeting 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  2 20:03:43 2017 UTC.  The chair is nzoueidi. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<nzoueidi> Hello and welcome to the Membership Board meeting!
<nzoueidi> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards. We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting.
<nzoueidi> y
<nzoueidi> If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off. The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<nzoueidi> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<nzoueidi> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant.
 * toddc is here to support all applicants from azloco
<nzoueidi> Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
 * superfly is here to support all the applications from AZ LoCo
<nzoueidi> #topic pavlos
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: pavlos
 * MajB is also here to support all applicants from AZLOCO
<pleia2> we're starting with pavlos because we have a quick administrative thing to note
<pavlos> can wmack go 1st?
<pleia2> pavlos: you haven't signed the Code of Conduct in Launchpad, which is a requirement for membership
<pleia2> pavlos: so if you can read it and do that now, we can come back to you at the end of the meeting, otherwise you'll have to come to our next meeting once you've signed it
<pavlos> will do it, thx
<pleia2> thanks for understanding :)
<pleia2> on to wmack_!
<wmack_> Thank you.
<nzoueidi> Alright, going to wmack_
<nzoueidi> #topic wmack_
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: wmack_
<wmack_> I am Walter Mack, member of the the Arizona Loco since approx 5 years.
<wmack_> My contribution is in the following areas:
<wmack_> Participate in twice/month installfests, typically installing or repairing Linux on 2-3 systems. Also there for technical assistance as necessary
<wmack_> I have also helped with the Loco computing infrastructure, setting up the initial owncloud system, as well as the big blue button system
<pleia2> speaking generally, it is always nice to see how many events the azloco has :)
<wmack_> Furthermore helped in the migration of the azloco main site from drupal 2.6 to 2.7
<nzoueidi> Any questions for DS-McGuire? Any supporters here?
<pleia2> wmack_: do you find folks who come to the installfests are generally new to Ubuntu, or existing users who need some help?
<wmack_> Also active in other linux organizations locally (namely the phoenix linux users group).
<wmack_> There is a tight interaction between PLUG and AZLOCO
<wmack_> wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/wmack-y
<wmack_> pleia2 - it is a mix.
<wmack_> I would say that 40% do have a good understanding of linux
<wmack_> the rest are predominantly individuals who want to understand Linux and what it can do for them.
<nzoueidi> wmack_: why there is no contribution in your LP? Are you planning to make some?
<pleia2> cool, thanks
<wmack_> What is LP?
<pleia2> launchpad
<nzoueidi> Launchpad
<wmack_> This is not on my radar at present - I'm concentrating on the local efforts of the Loco.
<pleia2> makes sense
<toddy> wmack_: what do you mean with Drupal 2.6 or 2.7. Drupal has version 6,7 or 8, I think. Or do you speak about a theme?
<pleia2> wmack_: I would encourage you to at least use it for reporting bugs, I'm sure you run into many while doing installs :)
<wmack_> I would need to go back to my notes.
<wmack_> I did think that the migration was from 2.6 to 2.7, maybe it was 6 to 7
<wmack_> It was not just a theme, but the whole drupal installation.
<toddy> ok
<pleia2> any fellow loco members here to support wmack_? :)
<wmack_> The migration was done as part of moving to a new team server, so it also involved moving the mysql db and adjusting it to work wit the new version
<nzoueidi> Alright, any other questions to wmack_ ?
<pleia2> wmack_: heh, that's always fun
<toddy> nice. you have many pictures at your wikipage of the loco group: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArizonaTeam
<toddc> wmack_: migrated from a physical to vertual server at the same time
<markthomas> I am another applicant, but I support wmack_. He's a big help to everyone in our loco.
<pleia2> thanks markthomas :)
<MajB> I am also here to support wmack
<pleia2> great
<toddc> 2.5- to version 4
<superfly> I'm also here to support wmack_
<nzoueidi> Already then, we go for vote
<nzoueidi> #voters pleia2 elacheche_anis nzoueidi toddy wxl
<meetingology> Current voters: elacheche_anis nzoueidi pleia2 toddy wxl
<nzoueidi> +1 keep up the good work :)
<pleia2> nzoueidi: need the question first ;)
<nzoueidi> my bad x)
<nzoueidi> #vote wmack_ for membership!
<meetingology> Please vote on: wmack_ for membership!
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<toddy> +1 â good work. thanks a lot
<meetingology> +1 â good work. thanks a lot received from toddy
<elacheche_anis> +1 Good contribs wmack_
<meetingology> +1 Good contribs wmack_ received from elacheche_anis
<nzoueidi> #votesrequired 4
<meetingology> votes now need 4 to be passed
<wxl> +1 from a fellow Walter; keep AZLOCO being great
<meetingology> +1 from a fellow Walter; keep AZLOCO being great received from wxl
<nzoueidi> +1 keep up the good work
<meetingology> +1 keep up the good work received from nzoueidi
<nzoueidi> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: wmack_ for membership!
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<toddc> thank you all
<nzoueidi> Congrats wmack_ :)
<pleia2> congrats and welcome to membership, wmack_ :)
<wmack_> Thank you very much!
<wxl> welcome wmack_ :)
<toddy> congrats wmack_ :)
<toddc> congrats wmack_
<MajB> congrats wmack_
<markthomas> Hooray, wmack_ !
 * wmack_ bows
<superfly> Good job wmack_!
<wxl> markthomas is next i believe
<markthomas> Helo.
<nzoueidi> Alright, so the next candidate is markthomas
<nzoueidi> #topic markthomas
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: markthomas
<slashd> Hi guys, I'm a Ubuntu Member & Contributing Developper, and I'm here today to support markthomas' application.
<wmack_> I need to go back to work - thank you all for listening me and supporting me.
<markthomas> My name is Mark Thomas. I've been an Ubuntu user since Dapper, a member of the Loco for over 3 years.
<nzoueidi> Please introduce yourself markthomas
<markthomas> I'm currently an employee of Canonical as well.
<markthomas> I contribute regularly to the install events with wmack_, and I also contribute off and on to the Ubuntu Community Documentation. I wrote the Active Directory section of the Ubuntu Server Guide.
<markthomas> My wiki page is wiki.ubuntu.com/markthomas
<markthomas> Recently, I've started triaging bugs on LP as well.
<pleia2> nice, much needed
<markthomas> launchpad.net/~markthomas
<nzoueidi> Cool, any questions for markthomas? and any supporters here?
<slashd> nzoueidi, I'm supporting markthomas
 * toddc is here in support of markthomas
<superfly> I'm supporting markthomas
<wxl> markthomas: what's your title at canonical?
<pleia2> markthomas: looks lke you joined Canonical in 2013, I imagine they found you because you were a community member?
<toddy> How much do you have written at the Ubuntu Server Guide, markthomas ?
<MajB> I am supporting markthomas as well
<markthomas> Technical Account Manager. Formerly Technical Support Engineer.
<cydizen> Hi all, I work at Canonical with Mark, and I'm here to support him as well.
<wxl> cool
<markthomas> pleia2, they found me because I was vocal of my support of Ubuntu on LinkedIn, I believe.
<wxl> cydizen: i assume you have your membership already then? *ahem* XD
<cydizen> I do not ><
<wxl> well you better get to fixing that!
<toddy> :D
<pleia2> (to be clear, you don't need to be a member to endorse)
<toddc> cydizen: we can cure that!
<wxl> cydizen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/NewMember -- you can ask markthomas to come support you :)
<wxl> pleia2: yeah, just ever evangelising, that's all :)
<markthomas> I certainly will.
<cydizen> Not his fault, he lets me know everytime he's headed to a plug meeting :)
<pleia2> :)
<wxl> ditto
<nzoueidi> okay, we proceed for the voting
<nzoueidi> #vote for markthomas membership!
<meetingology> Please vote on: for markthomas membership!
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<toddy> +1 thanks for the work
<meetingology> +1 thanks for the work received from toddy
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<elacheche_anis> +1 markthomas Good work :)
<meetingology> +1 markthomas Good work :) received from elacheche_anis
<wxl> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from wxl
<nzoueidi> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nzoueidi
<nzoueidi> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: for markthomas membership!
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<wxl> welcome markthomas :)
<markthomas> My thanks.
<toddy> congrats markthomas
<nzoueidi> congrats markthomas :) and welcome
<slashd> Congrats markthomas !!!
<toddc> congrats markthomas
<cydizen> congrats markthomas !
<MajB> congrats markthomas.
<pleia2> thanks for your work markthomas :)
<superfly> Well done, markthomas!
<toddy> toddc: something is wrong with you. I think you have a wrong letter in your name. :D
<markthomas> Thank you all.
<wxl> did pavlos sign CoC?
<markthomas> toddy, it's the beard. It anchors him to the front of the alphabet somehow.
<nzoueidi> pavlos: you still here?
 * toddc verified correct nick toddy
<toddy> :D
<pavlos> still here but unable to generate a key
<wxl> pavlos: tell me what you're doing and where you're stuck and we'll see if we can't fix you
<sarnold> as in "this machine isn't suitable for the task" or "an error message I don't understand"?
<pavlos> gpg --key-gen entered my info then a pass phrase (20 chars)  I get messagethat it needs more entropy so type more keys
<sarnold> wiggle the mouse too if you've got one
<pavlos> let me try that
<wxl> pavlos: open up a new terminal window and `find /var`
<wxl> that ought to get you plenty of entropy :)
<toddc> I think we overloaded him with guides and links in our local irc
<superfly> wxl: bwahaha, that's brilliant, must try that next time :-D
<sarnold> wxl: nice idea
<pavlos> I will connect from another machine
<pavlos_> I'm here, will try again
<sarnold> btw the machine running the gpg --gen-key is the one that needs the keyboard input or mouse input or disk drive fiddling...
<sarnold> pavlos_: if you're still not having any luck, try this: sudo apt-get install pollinate ; sudo -u pollinate pollinate -r
<pavlos> let me try that
<sarnold> pollinate uses ubuntu's entropy servers to feed your system's RNG
<pavlos> not will try the gpg again
<pavlos> now
<toddc> worst case we can figure it out at the tempe ubuntu hour tonight
<pavlos> not enough entropy needs 242 bytes
<sarnold> what's the output of cat /proc/sys/kernel/random/entropy_avail  ?
<pavlos> one sec ...
<wxl> toddc: you can use that as an opportunity to teach others how to sign the CoC as part of their membership application *AHEM* :)
<MajB> Yes toddc
<toddc> I think pavlos helped figure out how to do my gpg
<toddc> :)
<pavlos> 876
<pavlos> from /proc
<nzoueidi> pavlos: when you sign the CoC you can mail the Ubuntu Board Membership maillist and we vote there.
<pavlos> will do ... sorry for this
<MajB> So we don't need to reschedule him
<toddy> pavlos: no problem
<nzoueidi> No problem.
<nzoueidi> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  2 20:56:03 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-02-02-20.03.moin.txt
<toddc> thank you all again
<nzoueidi> Thank you all for attending and have a good day o/
<MajB> Yes thank you all for your time
<MajB>   pavlos, does this help?  http://askubuntu.com/questions/100275/how-do-i-sign-the-ubuntu-code-of-conduct#100304
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-02-03
<pavlos> wxl, I was able to generate a key and sign COC, sent email to the board. Thank you for your patience
<wxl> pavlos: glad to hear it :) we'll be in touch soon with the response-- once everyone on the team has had a chance to vote and we can tally everything. if you don't hear anything from us, don't worry-- we're working on it :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-02-04
<RadioZen> hi. I don't know if this is the best place to ask questions. Please direct me to the correct channel. I have ubuntu 16.04 and Lenovo E440. I bought a backlit keyboard and installed it. I can't get it to light up, I am wondering how I can light it up.
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-01-29
<tyhicks> hello
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 29 16:31:01 2018 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> Last week I spent most of my developement time on layouts reviews but other work was preempted by the steam-support interface, which required a lot of investigation. This week I plan to:
<jdstrand> - travel to/from and attend snapcraft sprint
<jdstrand> - continue the steam-support interface investigation/design
<jdstrand> - snapd portals reviews
<jdstrand> - LSM stacking demo preparation as have time
<jdstrand> - lxd snap regression wrt confinement as have time
<jdstrand> - create screencast interface as have time
<jdstrand> - strict mode snaps on livecd as have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on bug trige this week
<mdeslaur> I'm still working on qemu/libvirt updates
<mdeslaur> I'm currently trying to get artful installed inside a trusty vm, but it's not working well
<mdeslaur> since I don't have real hardware I can update microcode on
<mdeslaur> I'm also working on clamav updates
<cpaelzer> sorry to interrupt - jdstrand: you also did the chrony apparmor profile - which btw is fully picke dup by Debian already
<mdeslaur> that's about it, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> cpaelzer: what's the question?
<ratliff> cpaelzer: since you are here :) Can you help mdeslaur with qemu ^^?
<jdstrand> cpaelzer: yes I did and this is captured in trello. Thanks for mentioning the debian sync-- I noticed the bug this morning
<tyhicks> sbeattie: he was just pointing out the chrony profile since Jamie didn't list it in his work from last week
<sbeattie> last week? that's old news.
<sbeattie> :)
<cpaelzer> ratliff: what is the help that is needed atm?
<cpaelzer> I usually run some extra tests once mdeslaur pings me
<mdeslaur> cpaelzer: we need to make sure libvirt and qemu expose the new microcode bits to guests
<cpaelzer> we synced on HW - I don't have any that has the microcode update either
<mdeslaur> cpaelzer: do you have hardware that supports the 20180108 intel microcode update?
<cpaelzer> well I have my laptop
<cpaelzer> as most of us do
<cpaelzer> I suggested on Friday to use lxd on that to drive a testbed for KVM
<cpaelzer> with a bit of a how-to
<jdstrand> cpaelzer: do note that I had already incorporated the Debian feedback into ubuntu3 of chrony. looking at -2, I see the only difference to the profile is that Debian used utf8 quotes in a comment :)
<cpaelzer> jdstrand: yep
<cpaelzer> I found the same and synced it today jdstrand
<cpaelzer> ratliff: so the only microcode capable system I have is the same that mdeslaur has (at least according to our talk on Friday)
<cpaelzer> mdeslaur: did you try the kvm in lxd I suggested?
<mdeslaur> cpaelzer: i didn't no
<ratliff> cpaelzer: ok
 * jdstrand nods
<mdeslaur> not yet
<tyhicks> I have some hardware that we can possibly use
<tyhicks> I also have lxd set up, on a xenial host, which I use to run a container with VMs inside of it
<tyhicks> mdeslaur: lets talk after the meeting
<mdeslaur> ack
<tyhicks> sbeattie: go ahead
<sbeattie> I'm on cve triage this week, in addition to usual kernel triage bits
<sbeattie> Apparently, the kernel team published a linux-kvm kernel this morning, so I have a USN to publish for that.
<sbeattie> I'm working on the gcc retpoline backports, still trying to figure out why my gcc-4.8 backport segfaults.
<sbeattie> We should be able to push the gcc-5/xenial and gcc-7/artful to -proposed today, I just want to double-check the test results first.
<tyhicks> sbeattie: lets also get a bionic upload ready
<sbeattie> tyhicks: doko uploaded gcc-7.3 to bionic-proposed, which has the retpoline bits in it.
<tyhicks> nice
<tyhicks> sbeattie: am I up now?
<sbeattie> I'm still waiting on openjdk packages from td aitx, which I'll probably hand off to someone els.e
<sbeattie> tyhicks: yeah, that's my week pretty well covered. go for it.
<tyhicks> yeah, you've got your hands too full w/ cve triage, gcc, kernel bits, and openjdk
<tyhicks> ratliff: ^ we need to spread Steve's responsibilities this week
<ratliff> tyhicks: yep
<tyhicks> for my week, I will continue to help coordinate Meltdown and Spectre fixes (test, investigate, meet w/ CPU vendors, etc.)
<sarnold> I could grab cve triage this week
<tyhicks> I also need to work on an LSM stacking demo
<tyhicks> sarnold: I think that's probably a good idea - we'll chat after
<tyhicks> jj is out today
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week, but happy to take cve triage off steve. I'm goign to finish chrony mir and then move on down the list once that's done.
<sarnold> that's it for me, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I've got to finish up the thunderbird publication, and then I'm doing webkit updates
<chrisccoulson> and then rust 1.23 updates and apparmor audit work again
<chrisccoulson> I think that's me done
<ratliff> I'm in the happy place this week.
<ratliff> I have some internal work and I plan to get the historic data for cve triage loaded into InfluxDB.
<ratliff> leosilva: on to you
<leosilva> I'm in the community this week.
<leosilva> I'm working in the curl update, seems only be aplicable to one release (artful) it breaks in all the old ones. Still need to re-check and see before discards
<leosilva> besides that I'm keeping an eye on cve-list to get some other pkg to update.
<leosilva> that's it for me
<leosilva> tyhicks: you are back!
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Ways to contribute
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ways to contribute
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team suggests that contributors look into merging Debian security updates in community-supported packages. If you would like to help Ubuntu but are not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so. See http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/d2u/ for available merges and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details on preparing Ubuntu security
<tyhicks> updates. If you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-hardened. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, sarnold, ChrisCoulson, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 29 16:59:11 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-01-29-16.31.moin.txt
<leosilva> tks tyhicks !
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<sil2100> o/
<fossfreedom> its quiet in here sil2100
<sil2100> I guess I have the date and hour right, right? There should be the DMB meeting now?
<fossfreedom> I believe so
<jbicha> o/
<micahg_work> o/
<bdmurray> o/
<sil2100> I guess we can start then
<sil2100> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 29 19:04:51 2018 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<sil2100> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<sil2100> Did we have any items from last meeting? I think I missed it (if it actually happened)
<jbicha> we haven't met since December
<sil2100> Ok then, Agenda doesn't say anything about any items needing attention, let's move on
<sil2100> #topic PPU Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: PPU Applications
<sil2100> #subtopic David Mohammmed PPU application for budgie-extras
<sil2100> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/fossfreedom/budgie-extrasPPUApplication
<sil2100> fossfreedom: o/
<fossfreedom> hi
<sil2100> I guess we all know fossfreedom since we already handled his PPU applications, so not sure if any introduction is needed
<sil2100> Questions regarding this application?
<cyphermox> no questions from me
<sil2100> Ok, I assume we are ready to vote
<bdmurray> works for me
<jbicha> micahg_work: do you need more time?
 * sil2100 is waiting
<micahg_work> yeah, can I have 2 min?
<jbicha> I see some nitpicks with the budgie-extras packaging ;)
<micahg_work> I"m good
<sil2100> #vote Add budgie-extras to fossfreedom's PPU rights
<meetingology> Please vote on: Add budgie-extras to fossfreedom's PPU rights
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
<sil2100> +1 (an obvious addition to the packageset)
<meetingology> +1 (an obvious addition to the packageset) received from sil2100
<micahg_work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg_work
<jbicha> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jbicha
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Add budgie-extras to fossfreedom's PPU rights
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> fossfreedom: congrats o/
<fossfreedom> many thanks all - cheers!
<sil2100> I'll handle the addition of this package to the PPU set after the meeting
<sil2100> #action sil2100 to add budgie-extras to fossfreedom's PPU set
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to add budgie-extras to fossfreedom's PPU set
<sil2100> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<sil2100> Anything to discuss? What did we end up with regarding our discussion of the ubuntu-budgie flavor packageset?
<jbicha> I think cyphermox generated some updated package sets, but didn't get around to reviewing them?
<bdmurray> There was an email from mapreri re a PPU addiition. Did that get addressed?
<sil2100> bdmurray: hm, I guess not, he wasn't on the agenda - let me try finding that e-mail
<bdmurray> sil2100: its from 1/23
<sil2100> bdmurray: ok, found it
<cyphermox> packageset is not created yet, there's a bug open about that
<sil2100> bdmurray: since it's and addition to his PPU set, I guess he should set himself up for a DMB meeting, right?
<cyphermox> it needs TB action
<sil2100> s/and/an
<bdmurray> cyphermox: it which?
<sil2100> cyphermox: ok, but you're tracking that?
<cyphermox> bdmurray: packageset creation
<sil2100> (the budgie packageset?)
<bdmurray> ack
<cyphermox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/1733687
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1733687 in Ubuntu "Please create the ubuntu-budgie seed packageset" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<bdmurray> sil2100: is the DMB meeting needed for mapreri?
<sil2100> bdmurray: I'm not sure, we did one for foss_freedom just now
<sil2100> I'm not sure about the process
<jbicha> the bottomo of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase says DDs don't need a full meeting for approval?
<sil2100> Ah, indeed, that's the case here
<sil2100> Will someone handle his request then?
<sil2100> bdmurray: can you take care of it?
<sil2100> Ok, I'll take care of it then
<sil2100> #action sil2100 to handle mapreri's request
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to handle mapreri's request
<sil2100> Anything else?
<bdmurray> sil2100: Sorry, I can do that
<sil2100> #action bdmurray to handle sil2100's earlier request
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray to handle sil2100's earlier request
<sil2100> ;)
<sil2100> Confusing
<sil2100> Anyway, I need to run now so I'll be closing the meeting
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 29 19:36:41 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-01-29-19.04.moin.txt
<sil2100> o/
<bdmurray> sil2100: Okay, thanks for chairing
<clivejo> Hi, folks, not sure where to post this but hoping someone here will know, how to I remove myself from planet and the wiki etc?
<clivejo> figured out the wiki issue, but not the PlanetUbuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-02-01
<rbalint> o/
<juliank> \o
<tdaitx> o/
<chiluk>  /o\
<sil2100> o/
<tribaal> o/
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  1 16:02:42 2018 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<Odd_Bloke> \ / o
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther juliank)
<slangasek> doko rcj mwhudson tdaitx cyphermox infinity Odd_Bloke tribaal bdmurray philroche juliank xnox slangasek fginther rbalint sil2100
<slangasek> doko: hello!
<gaughen> o/
<doko> ouch
<doko> I go last ...
<rcj> rcj
<gaughen> doko, we're saving the best for last
<rcj> * made clouds faster
<rcj> * went first in meeting
<rcj> * CVE builds for cloud-images
<rcj> (done)
<gaughen> no mwhudson
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> * OpenJDK 8 security update:
<tdaitx>   - still massaging armhf hotspot
<tdaitx> * Ran tests with openjdk 9 and 10 as default jdk on bionic
<tdaitx>   - 24 reverse build-depends on default-jdk + default-jdk-headless
<tdaitx>   - 8 failures using jdk 9, 10 failures using jdk 10
<tdaitx> * Investigating maven-archiver ftbfs (Debian #886875)
<ubottu> Debian bug 886875 in src:maven-archiver "maven-archiver FTBFS: test failure" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/886875
<tdaitx> * Backporting OpenJDK 8 fixes to OpenJDK 7
<tdaitx> (done)
<cyphermox> - MIR
<cyphermox>  - argos2 review
<cyphermox>  - discussing mtd-utils MIR with rbalint, triggered by flash-kernel
<cyphermox> - juju-core review for SRU to xenial, from balloons' code branch
<cyphermox> - reviewed subiquity keyboard code
<cyphermox> - netplan:
<cyphermox>  - implement 'netplan ip leases'
<cyphermox>  - refactoring for private python lib
<cyphermox>  - coverage/ci fixes
<cyphermox>  - field kernel team questions about netplan
<cyphermox> - debugging grub net timeout/retransmit/repeated RRQs of files it already received
<cyphermox> - shim/grub:
<cyphermox>  - validating grub2{,-signed},shim{,-signed} SRU in xenial, artful
<cyphermox> (done)
<tribaal> * Snapping part of the build infrastructure for cloud images.
<tribaal> * Partner work
<tribaal> * Work on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/squid-deb-proxy/+bug/1456238 (on my spare time)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1456238 in squid-deb-proxy (Ubuntu) "Rewrite urls to mirror" [Wishlist,In progress]
<tribaal> (done)
<tribaal> (out of order \o/ My battery is almost dead)
<Odd_Bloke> * Vacation, travel and catch-up
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> tribaal: any more?
<tribaal> bdmurray: nope
<bdmurray> oops
<bdmurray> Investigation into non-unique whoopsie ids (LP: #1636954)
<bdmurray> Discussed non-unique whoopsie ids at some length
<bdmurray> Switched rabbitmq charm in mojo spec so nagios check passes
<bdmurray> Updates to mojo spec for nagios changes / recommendations
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1636954 in Whoopsie "Whoopsie should use something else if non-unique uuid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1636954
<bdmurray> Documented how to setup whoopsie to send crashes to daisy w/ self-signed cert
<bdmurray> Modified whoopsie to respect an env var to not check ssl cert of daisy server
<bdmurray> Reviewed and merged jibel's apport branch fixing ubiquity package hook (LP: #1582950)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1582950 in apport (Ubuntu Artful) "broken apport hook: TypeError: a bytes-like object is required, not 'str'" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1582950
<bdmurray> Fixed apport bug re: recommending python-apport (LP: #1729879)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1729879 in apport (Ubuntu Bionic) "apport-collect is still requesting python-apport installation" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1729879
<bdmurray> Investigation into and resolution of apport-test-crashes creation failure
<bdmurray> Confirmed apport-test-crashes are good - had them retraced in devops ET
<bdmurray> Was on holiday last week
<bdmurray> done
<bdmurray> philroche:
<Odd_Bloke> philroche is out today.
<xnox> juliank,
<juliank> merged lvm2
<juliank> fixed some ubuntu-release-upgrader stuff (bug #1744722)
<juliank> cryptsetup 2.0 transition
<juliank> rsyslog merge
<ubottu> bug 1744722 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Artful) "Unknown bad source brings up during 'zesty' to 'artful' upgrade and It break the process" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1744722
<juliank> apt test suite fix
<juliank> filed argos2 (for cryptsetup) MIR
<juliank> fastjson (for rsyslog) MIR
<juliank> working on lscpu xenial fix now (bug 1732865) (done)
<ubottu> bug 1732865 in util-linux (Ubuntu Xenial) "[LTCTest][OPAL][FW860.20] lscpu failed to list cpu max and min frequencies" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1732865
<juliank> ok, the (done) should have been its own line
<juliank> xnox:
<xnox> Work on migrating 1.0.2n (upgrade from g release), openssl migrated
<xnox> Working on completing migration of my uploads (ppc/s390x)
<xnox> Fix a couple of easy 1.1.0 openssl compatibilities
<xnox> Merged systemd v237
<xnox> Back from japan on sunday, off to brussels for fosdem tomorrow.
<xnox> done
<slangasek>  * working through maas+grub netboot regression possibly triggered my meltdown mitigations (LP: #1743249)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1743249 in MAAS "Failed Deployment after timeout trying to retrieve grub cfg" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1743249
<slangasek>  * sort out livecd-rootfs regression in bionic (LP: #1746631)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1746631 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "livecd-rootfs 2.496 needs a PROPOSED=1 build test before release to bionic" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1746631
<slangasek>  * proposed-migration work
<slangasek>   * digging into the arm64 runner slowdown over the past week (but not getting very far)
<slangasek>   * retries, overrides, etc. of autopkgtest failures
<slangasek>  * discussions w/ server team about default behavior of cloud-init on unconfigured NICs
<slangasek>  * discussions around fixing MAAS ability to install ESM-supported precise
<slangasek>  * discussions around clean shutdown of complex storage configs (finalrd)
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek> fginther:
<slangasek> rbalint:
<rbalint> * finish flash-kernel merge
<rbalint> * mtd-utils MIR for flash-kernel (still needs fixing tests) LP: #1746126
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1746126 in mtd-utils (Ubuntu) "[MIR] mtd-utils (WIP)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1746126
<rbalint> * merge shadow
<rbalint> * fix cdbs dependency on scour which broke shadow's build
<rbalint> * fix FTBFS of libnfs
<rbalint> * internal testbed setup
<rbalint> * gce-compute-image-packages update, SRU-s pending LP: #1746588
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1746588 in gce-compute-image-packages (Ubuntu) "Update google compute-image-packages to 20180129" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1746588
<rbalint> (done)
<sil2100> - Off on Tuesday, very fragmented week in overall
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Kernel SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - ubiquity:
<sil2100>   * Testing the ubiquity early keyboard selection branch
<sil2100>   * Figuring out how to run the autopilot-tests locally on a VM
<sil2100>   * Working on fixing autopilot tests
<sil2100> - Checking edge cases of ubuntu-server installs (making sure quiet and splash aren't there)
<sil2100> - DMB meeting
<sil2100> - 16.04.4 discussions and slip announcements
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek> doko:
<doko> - came back from LinuxConf.AU, short week
<doko> - updated mpfr/mpclib, and all GCC packages, including cross packages
<doko> - GCC 7.3 and binutils 2.30 releases
<doko> - glibc fix for binutils 2.30
<doko> - gdb 8.1 release
<doko> - and unfortunately handling a lot of unfinished transitions ...
<doko> - build failures ...
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> any questions over status?
<juliank> Oh, I forgot: I've been hacking around a bit on Launchpad to add Valid-Until to release files (WIP)
<xnox> juliank, sounds interesting and scary. e.g. in the context of ESM and the fact that release pocket is frozen and not republished.
<xnox> juliank, and esm is kind of open-eneded in end dates.
<juliank> xnox: for -updates, -security, -proposed, and -backports I think. We'll see how it works out :)
<slangasek> juliank: for ESM, the -updates and -security pockets need to be usable for years after they stop being updated
<slangasek> but that's not a reason for LP to not support it in principle
<juliank> slangasek: I'd imagine we can come up with something for that
<xnox> and ppas.... like fips, esm, cloud archive, partner archive, dbgsysms,
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<slangasek> anything here we should be taking?
<bdmurray> bug 1744318 - should this move to targetted?
<ubottu> bug 1744318 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "changelogs.ubuntu.com should be using HTTPS" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1744318
<slangasek> xnox: I think we had discussed LP: #1707898 again while you were out... what should we do with this?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1707898 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd translations are not synced with upstream" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1707898
<slangasek> bdmurray: 1744318 - yes I think so
<xnox> Laney, do you think we can trollo-fy the above systemd translation task, on like desktop team trello backlog? it needs a spike investigation to come up with a plan of action.
<gaughen> slangasek, I think xnox is going to reach out to laney
<slangasek> xnox: I think we should drop the rls-bb-incoming tag, since regardless of criticality it isn't for us to accept
<gaughen> sounds reasonable
<slangasek> if it's another team that needs to fix it
<xnox> and then i am happy to tackle it, or to delegate, as long as there is agreement on how to "make translation in langpacks, and be usable by systemd, et.al and all working fine as needed"
<bdmurray> slangasek: So will you modify 1744318?
<slangasek> bdmurray: yes
<xnox> Laney, possibly need changes to langpacks, and pkgmangler, to mangle systemd in a special snowflake way.
<bdmurray> I have some others but will wait for the systemd discussion to tend.
 * xnox is done.
<bdmurray> tend = totally end
<Laney> xnox: I've not really touched langpacks, so you probably want to start with seb128
<bdmurray> definitely not a typo
<Laney> I see I was @-ed in that bug but not subscribed to it ;-)
<Laney> oh no I am, wtf
<xnox> Laney, re:touching langpacks, me neither.... but some sensible plan / guidance, would be nice before shooting in the foot. Like choose which foot, and whoose =)
<slangasek> bdmurray, xnox: takes 1707898 out of our incoming queue, will trust that it gets followed up w/ desktop team
<Laney> X-Launchpad-Message-Rational: subscribed-by @xnox: file in /dev/null :-)
<Laney> +e
<xnox> twat
<xnox> =)
<bdmurray> Is bug 1729491 worth targetting to the release?
<ubottu> bug 1729491 in apport (Ubuntu) "ubuntu-bug says that snap packages are not installed" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1729491
<sil2100> I actually took those langpacks from seb, but I guess seb might know more on the actual mechanics of how they work
<sil2100> I just know and deal with their generation
<bdmurray> It should just be a string change somewhere.
<sil2100> hm, which reminds me, I forgot to re-enable bionic update packs, eh
<slangasek> bdmurray: hmm yes, let's take that one
<juliank> bdmurray: what would be the proper way to report a snap bug?
<slangasek> (done)
<xnox> Laney, could we start a trello card for this on dekstop board and/or subscribe/add me to that card? it will need some discussion and coordination.
<slangasek> juliank: that's a separate question from having the bug-reporting tools giving confusing error messages
<sil2100> xnox, Laney: could you also include me in that card?
<bdmurray> juliank: I don't know if there is one.
<juliank> alright.
<slangasek> yes, unfortunately there's not a consistent story there currently
<bdmurray> bug 1736072 seems important - I haven't dug into it at all
<ubottu> bug 1736072 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Encrypted swap does not work" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1736072
<slangasek> 1736072 is the reason xnox doesn't get a straight backport of swapfiles into 16.04 as an SRU
<Laney> xnox: sil2100: Chat to Seb in #ubuntu-desktop in the first instance I think
<xnox> slangasek, .... but i thought it was fixed by cyphermox , no?
<doko> juliank: I'm still doubting about another json implementation in main ...
<slangasek> I don't know, has it been?
<slangasek> cyphermox: does encrypted swap work in bionic? should LP: #1736072 be closed?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1736072 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Encrypted swap does not work" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1736072
<juliank> doko: Well, yeah, what can we do? I don't know.
<cyphermox> slangasek: should be working, but we should give it another check
<doko> juliank: can it still be built with json-c?
<slangasek> juliank: yell at upstream? block at the current version of rsyslog for this cycle?
<xnox> ah, the bug says it is now racy
<slangasek> cyphermox: shall I assign to you to follow up?
<cyphermox> xnox: you're right swap should have been fixed last cycle
<cyphermox> yes
<slangasek> (and claim it for the cycle, it's clearly important, just not clearly a bug)
<juliank> slangasek: rsyslog upstream is the one who forked the json library
<xnox> i wonder if there are dependencies missing, and/or not specified x-systemd-after things in fstab
<juliank> and made it incompatible and dropped their json-c compat layer
<xnox> sweet
<xnox> juliank, did they embed a partial tree of systemd too? like NM?
<juliank> I don't think so
 * xnox says bad very very bad deal
<slangasek> juliank: this does not preclude yelling ;)
<juliank> but everything is possible :)
<bdmurray> That's it for rls-bb-incoming as far as I'm concerned
<slangasek> bdmurray: there seemed to be a lot of high incoming bugs that we skipped over
<slangasek> I think juliank should claim LP: #1725861  :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1725861 in apt (Ubuntu) "APT::AutoRemove::SuggestsImportant "false" should be the default" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1725861
<bdmurray> slangasek: ah, indeed
<juliank> slangasek: Oh well
<slangasek> juliank: do you think it's fair to say this is something we should fix before the next LTS, even if not implemented in the way the bug title suggests?
<juliank> slangasek: I think it might make sense with my other plan to only autoremove "new garbage"
<juliank> I'm not convinced it's the right thing to do
<juliank> I'm not convinced it's the wrong thing to do either.
<slangasek> juliank: ok, let's claim it for now and we can discuss further w/o blocking the team meeting :)
<bdmurray> slangasek: to be clear "claim it" also means create a card for it?
<slangasek> bdmurray: yes, doing
<bdmurray> slangasek: and so every rls-bb-tracking tagged bug should have a card too correct?
<slangasek> bdmurray: should, yes
<slangasek> bdmurray: I have been doing those inline here
<slangasek> xnox: your last comment on LP: #1739672 says you weren't uploading while the build farm was blocked.  Is this now fix-committed?
<bdmurray> slangasek: Is there a way to audit the bugs for cards? Do they get tagged during the import?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1739672 in systemd (Ubuntu) "Regression in getaddrinfo(): calls block for much longer on Bionic (compared to Xenial), please disable LLMNR" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1739672
<slangasek> bdmurray: they have not been getting tagged during the import; I thought they were meant to be but maybe that's a separate job; I've noticed a lot of my imported cards not being tagged. fginther?
 * juliank was a bit confused too about the systemd bug
<gaughen> I didn't realize the tracking bugs you were getting automagically imported
<xnox> slangasek, well, but systemd is not building atm on arm64 because binutils / relocation / EFI
<xnox> slangasek, but i should stage that in git at least, yes.
<fginther> slangasek, yeah that should be happening. Let me look at logs
<slangasek> xnox: oh. who has the baton for fixing that, and is there a bug?
 * juliank is checking if gnu-efi is causing the systemd FTBFS
<xnox> slangasek, doko / juliank / and I are on the hook for it.
<juliank> It might be either toolchain, gnu-efi, or systemd
<slangasek> systemd uses gnu-efi.
<slangasek> because of course it does.
<xnox> slangasek, there are multiple things affected, e.g. kernel, gnu-efi, systemd.... which i guess is gnu-efi.
<slangasek> ok, so juliank is on this?
<juliank> and I have a gnu-efi transition
<xnox> slangasek, re:LLMNR should it be a default for resolved.conf; .network setting for a network; or a netplan provided default?
<juliank> slangasek: yeah, I'm on the gnu-efi part
<xnox> slangasek, i'm guessing we want it as default off, but not sure if that means in resolved, or on every network....
<slangasek> juliank: can you (create a bug and) give me a bug number so I can follow without pestering?
<juliank> slangasek: I'm checking if sytemd builds with the new gnu-efi or not.
<slangasek> xnox: my expectation is off in resolved by default
<juliank> slangasek: One for gnu-efi transition, systemd FTBFS on arm64, or both?
<slangasek> juliank: systemd ftbfs
<juliank> ack
<xnox> slangasek, ok
<juliank> slangasek: xnox: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1746765
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1746765 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd FTBFS on arm64" [Undecided,New]
<juliank> I assigned it to gnu-efi, systemd, and binutils and we can figure out what's doing it
<slangasek> juliank: thanks
<slangasek> anything else on bugs?
<doko> bdmurray: please could you have a look at the apport autopkg test failures?
<juliank> slangasek: Should we add a card for systemd FTBFS and mark it in progress?
<slangasek> juliank: done
<juliank> thx
<bdmurray> doko: oh sure, I wonder why I haven't gotten an email about that
<doko> autopkg test failures, not build failures
<bdmurray> I thought we were supposed to get emails about both.
<slangasek> juliank, xnox: my $.02 is that we should disable any use of gnu-efi in our systemd packages as we are certainly not using the EFI artifacts in the distro and have no plans to
<juliank> slangasek: I use them :/
<slangasek> bdmurray: we email about stuck packages after a grace period
<slangasek> juliank: but that should not block systemd distro development in 18.04
<juliank> right
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<juliank> we could also just enable them on arm64, though, as that's where it fails, then I'm happy too :)
<slangasek> juliank: indeed
<xnox> slangasek, when i saw it fail to build, i was like "why the hell is _that_ enabled?"
<xnox> juliank, you use them - systemd-efi-boot? you wrap apt in an initramfs, with a kernel image, wrapped as a UEFI binary and then you sign it and only boot that? =)
<doko> transition mess again ...
<slangasek> yes
<slangasek> I haven't been giving the transitions much attention because I've been focused on autopkgtest
<juliank> xnox: I use systemd-boot to boot my system instead of grub, and I do wrap an initramfs with a kernel into one image which I sign
<doko> I'm doing unfinished transitions for the past four days ...
<slangasek> doko: do you have a pointer to where you think people should start on the transition mess?
<doko> it's now getting autopkg test failures fixed for involved packages
<juliank> xnox: I can't really get grub to work since everything except the ESP is in my LUKS->LVM partition
<slangasek> doko: I see you've been demoting packages to proposed again, which again makes the bottom of update_excuses less useful
<doko> so everything which depends on mpfr4, mpclib, gdbm, perl, php, and more which I don't have yet identified
<slangasek> doko: we've discussed that these packages should be removed instead of demoted if they are going to require sourceful fixes
<doko> slangasek: ok, I can do that again. that were the packages still depending on python-imaging and not in debian testing
<slangasek> yes, those are good candidates for removal if they depend on python-imaging directly
<doko> and I'd like to proposed to push perl into the release pocket to disentangle it from other transitions
<xnox> juliank, well, maybe we should fix that.
<xnox> juliank, imho kernel should drop and load modules off ESP, and or /boot/grub should be on ESP too
<slangasek> doko: there was at least one autopkgtest regression against perl which looks legitimate, which is why I haven't skiptest'ed yet
<juliank> xnox:Well then you have to put it in machine-id specific directories like I do for kernels in sicherboot
<juliank> because multiple OS share the ESP
<slangasek> xnox: /boot/grub on ESP> yes please, though the migration of existing systems would be rough
<slangasek> juliank: we own /efi/ubuntu on the ESP
<juliank> slangasek: What about systems with 2 ubuntus?
<cyphermox> we'll always find corner-cases
<slangasek> juliank: you still only have one entrypoint via /efi/ubuntu/bootx64.efi, so it doesn't change the character of the problem if we move more stuff into /efi/ubuntu
<xnox> juliank, we still own /efi/ubuntu, so we can add machine-id subfolders. plus ubuntu's can boot each other.
<juliank> Right
<juliank> I just add machine-id directories directly to the root of the ESP
<slangasek> anyway, interesting discussion, but I think we're done
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  1 16:57:32 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-02-01-16.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, folks :)
<bdmurray> I had some AOB - Happy February!
 * wxl drops a pin
 * wxl listens carefully
 * neothethird thinks he heard it hit the ground
 * sarnold *pong*
<wxl> time to get this party started, Wild_Man ?
<diddledan> wheee
<wxl> hold on. collecting bodies.
<diddledan> popey is coming, not sure if he's here yet
<popey> I am always here ;)
<diddledan> fairy snuff
<pleia2> i/
<pleia2> er
<pleia2> o/
<Wild_Man> #startmeeting 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Feb  1 20:03:44 2018 UTC.  The chair is Wild_Man. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<wxl> \o\
<wxl> /o/
<Wild_Man> Hello and welcome to the Membership Board meeting!
<popey> Hello one, hello all!
<Wild_Man> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards. We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting.
<davecore> Hi everyone
<Wild_Man> If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off. The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<neothethird> hey everyone \o
<tsimonq2> heyoo
<Wild_Man> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<Wild_Man> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<neothethird> Should I start then?
<popey> Go for it.
<Wild_Man> #topic neothethird
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 20 UTC Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: neothethird
<neothethird> Hey everyone, my name is Jan Sprinz (neothethird), i'm a 20 year old informatics student from Germany currently living in Munich. I only really started using Ubuntu on the desktop in 2016. Having the power of an actual GNU/Linux terminal (not the crippled experience you have on macOS) was a real eye-opener to me, and the Unity user experience turned out to be everything I ever wanted from my desktop.
<neothethird> I started to contribute by reporting bugs and giving support on askubuntu, and came accross the Ubuntu Phone project. The concept of convergence blew my mind and decided i wanted to help making it a reality. Since the commercial devices were very hard to come by at that time, i started exploring other options.
<neothethird> I discovered Marius Gripsgard and his UBports project, who were trying to port to the Fairphone 2, the phone I was using. Porting was beyond my ken, but I tried to help in other parts of the project, like the websites, PR, organizational stuff, and of course testing and reporting bugs. With the Fariphone port becoming more mature, i also started to look into qml app-development.
<neothethird> I was studying game engineering at that time, sounds interesting, but it's really not. I was bored out of my mind and Ubuntu Touch was a welcome distraction. When Canonical announced the end of their support for phones, the whole community was in shock. It was clear pretty quickly that if someone was going to take it over, it would be UBports, since we already had the infrastructure. So we did, and the response in th
<Wild_Man> neothethird , please introduce yourself to the board, and share a link to your LP and wiki
<neothethird> e community was overwhelmingly positive! I took up a lot of tasks related to the takeover and was later elected for the first Board of Directors of the soon-to-be-active UBports Foundation.
<neothethird> My current areas of contributions are listed on my Wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JanSprinz). I love the Ubuntu community, and I hope you will look favorably upon my application for Ubuntu Membership. Ubuntu is a big part of my life, even though UBports is technically not an official Ubuntu project. If you want me to elaborate on
<neothethird> Ubuntu-Wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JanSprinz
<neothethird> Launchpad page: https://launchpad.net/~neothethird
<neothethird> GitHub page: https://github.com/neothethird
<neothethird> UBports Foundation members list: https://ubports.com/foundation/ubports-foundation/foundation-boardmembers
<popey> neothethird: how has the reception of ubports taking over from canonical in ownership of the ubuntu phone projects?
<neothethird> Reception by whom specifically?
<popey> The wider community :)
<popey> In general, nobody specifically.
<neothethird> I would say it was mixed. The already present UBports community on telegram was very positive about it, some people who did not know us before were a little sceptical at first. Not only because they did not know us, also because it takes a lot of faith to trust someone with something as personal as your mobile phone operating system.
<neothethird> And some people may have had the impression that it was a "grab for power" by UBports, but i think that feeling is no longer there. (at least i don't hear it any more)
<popey> Yeah, it seems you've handled that weell
<popey> *well
<neothethird> thank you
<Wild_Man> neothethird, how often do you help out on Ask Ubuntu?
<popey> With updates coming out too, which is always good to see.
<neothethird> Wild_Man: less today, unfortunately, because i am so tied in in Ubuntu Touch, and Ubuntu Touch questions are not welcome on askubuntu any more.
<popey> Really? Shame. Do you have an alternative Q&A site?
<Wild_Man> Okay that makes sense. Thanks
<neothethird> popey: we have forums.ubports.com, but most technical support goes through Telegram or GitHub.
<popey> Gotcha
<tsimonq2> neothethird: So I see on your wiki you want to help UBPorts become a better part of Ubuntu. What do you see as the differences and how do you plan to help achieve that goal??
 * tsimonq2 is on mobile, excuse typos 
<tsimonq2> (I'm looking at "Future Goals" if anyone wants to follow along :))
<neothethird> tsimonq2: Some former Ubuntu Phone users still have not heard about us, i hope that will change in the future. I still see "Oh, i thought it was dead" at least once a week.
<tsimonq2> neothethird: And how do you plan on getting that info out? (And how can the Ubuntu community help you?))
<neothethird> tsimonq2: How do I want to help achieve that goal? That's a difficult one. It also depends on what the Ubuntu community will like and not like.
<wxl> is there someway that could be advertised through an OTA or something of the sort?
<tsimonq2> ^
<neothethird> tsimonq2: With the switch of base to xenial coming along, i could imagine starting a process of making Ubuntu Touch an official flavor, for example. That might be one option.
<tsimonq2> neothethird: I would be curious to see if that's possible :D
<wxl> an official flavor would be great!
<wxl> i wholeheartedly support that
<tsimonq2> I totally agree
<neothethird> wxl: We released three OTAs already, the next one (as it's planned) will introduce the new xenial base. For that we want to definitely spin up PR
<tsimonq2> Anyways, that's all I have to ask :)
<popey> I have no more questions
<wxl> neothethird: well, i'm suggesting the OTA itself, when announcing itself, could also link to UBPorts info, or are you saying that's not applicable to non-UBPorts Ubuntu Phone users?
<wxl> in any case, we can continue this conversation outside of this meeting. i have no other questions
<neothethird> wxl: With the Ubuntu Store being decomissioned now, i don't know if there are still non-ubports ubuntu touch users around. We support all devices that canonical supported before.
<popey> (i still have my bq m10 running ubports :) )
<Wild_Man> #voters wxl tsimonq2 popey pleia2 Wild_Man
<meetingology> Current voters: Wild_Man pleia2 popey tsimonq2 wxl
<sarnold> wxl: I'm 90% sure all that infrastructure is torn down now
<wxl> +1 go ubports go
<Wild_Man> #vote neothethird  membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: neothethird  membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<neothethird> sarnold: that is correct. Canonical was very helpful in the transition
<wxl> ah there we go
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<wxl> +1 go ubports go
<meetingology> +1 go ubports go received from wxl
<Wild_Man> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Wild_Man
<popey> Great work. neothethird is a lovely chap too :)
<tsimonq2> +1 keep up the great work :D
<meetingology> +1 keep up the great work :D received from tsimonq2
<neothethird> thank you very much!
<wxl> popey: he's pretty? does that help with his application? ;)
<Wild_Man> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: neothethird  membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<pleia2> thanks for you work keeping ubports going :)
<popey> On advice of my legal representative, I'm not answering that wxl :)
<wxl> hahhaahah
<neothethird> :D
<tsimonq2> :D
<Wild_Man> Congratulations neothethird
<wxl> congrats, neothethird.
<pleia2> you're up, diddledan! please introduce yourself :)
<diddledan> Hi, I'm Dan, and have been contributing to the snapcraft community for some time, since at least the beginning of 2017. I am avidly active on their forums. I'm in my 30s, have had a computer since I was 3 (family system) and developed a love for computing through this exposure. I have been friends with Alan (popey) for many years through interaction via the UK LoCo. I am currently working freelance as a
<diddledan> WordPress developer, contributing as much as I can to the snapcraft community in my spare time. I have used Ubuntu since the 2005 era (5.04). I was encouraged to apply for Ubuntu membership by Wimpy (flexiondotorg) who I've been getting to know well through my contributions to snapcraft. My wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/diddledan.
<popey> (my opinion is covered by my testimonial)
<wxl> man, you are just snapperific, aren't you?
<diddledan> I hope so :-)
<pleia2> wow, lots of snaps
<wxl> i must add a snap of audacity seems audacious. good work!
<diddledan> it's on the buildd now
<wxl> gimp, too, wow
<wxl> and of course those testimonials go a long way
<wxl> omg you helped bring a powershell snap? jeeez
<wxl> wow, ok, i've got no questions at all
<popey> I'm impressed with diddledan's involvement in the forum. getting stuck in answering technical questions and proposing fixes for challenging problems
<diddledan> yeah, I'm at the snapcraft summit, and on the monday I spent the day with the guy from MS
<Wild_Man> impressive
<tsimonq2> No questions here :)
<Wild_Man> #voters Wild_Man pleia2 tsimonq2 wxl popey
<meetingology> Current voters: Wild_Man pleia2 popey tsimonq2 wxl
<Wild_Man> #vote neothethird  membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: neothethird  membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<wxl> wrong one
<popey> uh
<popey> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from popey
<wxl> but maybe we can just pretend we're voting on the right applicant? XD
<popey> for lulz
<wxl> hahahahahah
<neothethird> :D
<tsimonq2> +0.85
<meetingology> +0.85 received from tsimonq2
<tsimonq2> :P
<Wild_Man> #vote diddledan membership
<popey> ok. end and restart the vote?
<meetingology> Voting still open on: neothethird  membership
<pleia2> need to #endvote
<wxl> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from wxl
<Wild_Man> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: neothethird  membership
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:1 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion denied
<Wild_Man> #vote diddledan membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: diddledan membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<pleia2> +1
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<wxl> ah ha it parsed out the .85
<wxl> +1 keep it snappy
<meetingology> +1 keep it snappy received from wxl
<Wild_Man> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Wild_Man
<tsimonq2> +1 :D
<meetingology> +1 :D received from tsimonq2
<popey> \o/ whoohoo
<diddledan> YEEEHAAAW
<Wild_Man> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: diddledan membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<popey> Congratulations diddledan
<wxl> congrats!
 * tsimonq2 adds diddledan to ~ubuntumembers
<Wild_Man> Congratulations diddledan
<tsimonq2> congrats :D
<diddledan> thankyou guys :-D
<popey> No, go get lunch diddledan before you waste away!
<Wild_Man> davecore, your up
<popey> *now
<davecore> Hi, my name is David Coronel and I joined Canonical in May 2016 as a Technical Account Manager in the Support & Technical Services team. I have over 12 years of sysadmin experience and am driven by new cloud technologies and platforms. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/davecore
<davecore> I particularly want to see Ubuntu strive in the public cloud space. I'm a member and contributor to Launchpad since April 2016.
<davecore> I made a contribution to the upstream sosreport hardware module and actively participate in testing of packages in -proposed. Recently in Launchpad bugs 1734983, 1742531 and 1743232.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1742531 in Landscape Client "New Amazon AWS C5 instances are not recognised as a VM" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1742531
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1743232 in Landscape Client "set vm_info to kvm for digitalocean instances" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1743232
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1734983 in sosreport (Debian) "Request to backport sosreport v3.5" [Unknown,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1734983
<davecore> I also made a contribution to the private project Landscape server and went through the merge request and testing process in Launchpad. I was encouraged to apply for membership by slashd.
<davecore> I really like to learn about and work with new technologies. I achieved the AWS Certified Solutions Architect - Associatem, Certified OpenStack Administrator and Certified Kubernetes Administrator in the last 2 years.
<markthomas> I am also here to support davecore's application.
<pleia2> I see a lot of internal work here (landscape, canonical support), is there more that you can point to that's public?
<davecore> pleia2: I did some recent testing with sosreport , namely  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1734983
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1734983 in sosreport (Debian) "Request to backport sosreport v3.5" [Unknown,New]
<slashd> pleia2, davecore is doing some launchpad work, sosreport upstream patches, he contribute in ubuntu in various way due to the nature of his work for Canonical. I support his application too.
<slashd> sosreport ubuntuplugin upstream work I must say ^
<pleia2> I'm just asking because community involvement is key here, so we want to know where we would have worked with you :)
<davecore> pleia2: I go to local events in Montreal, such as devops meetup. I used to be involved in Ansible when it wasn't acquired by Red Hat. :)
<slashd> pleia2, As a ubuntu uploader myself I often rely on davecore skill to test and provide good testing feedback, and he is very good at identify and finding problem in ubuntu and explain them in lp
<slashd> and fix them when possible.
<davecore> pleia2: I hosted Ansible Meetup events and invited the Ansible VP of community to visit us in our first Montreal event
<davecore> As a TAM at Canonical, I get the chance to work with some of the major public cloud vendors and strive to make Ubuntu better in the public cloud space.
<popey> I'd like to see more evidence of community contributions personally.
<popey> It's difficult to tell if we're just not seeing them from the wiki page as is
<popey> or if the majority of contributions have been to commercial non-community facing projects
<davecore> I've been a teaching assistant for a python class in the Montreal Python community
<slashd> popey, here's one public contribution davecore did -> https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/26502396/
<slashd> for sosreport affecting lds-client for instance in this case if not mistaken ^
<popey> Thanks, but the guidance for membership is 'sustained and significant' contributions
<popey> not 'here is one'
<davecore> I think my primary channel of working on making Ubuntu succeed is through my TAM role at Canonical, but I still work in the big picture towards making Ubuntu the best OS it can be, even though that's behind the curtains a little.
<Wild_Man> #vote davecore membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: davecore membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<pleia2> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from pleia2
<popey> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from popey
<tsimonq2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tsimonq2
<wxl> +0 i would like to see a little more clear non-commercial contribution
<meetingology> +0 i would like to see a little more clear non-commercial contribution received from wxl
<Wild_Man> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Wild_Man
<popey> I'd like to see you come back in a few months with a more sustained contribution to the community
<Wild_Man> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: davecore membership
<meetingology> Votes for:1 Votes against:1 Abstentions:3
<meetingology> Deadlock, casting vote may be used
<pleia2> davecore: don't get me wrong, I appreciate the work you do behind the curtains, but I feel an important part of membership is the community side of things (that's why all Canonical engineers aren't automatically members)
<tsimonq2> ^
<popey> yeah, same
<wxl> or at least with clear documentation of what has been done
<tsimonq2> Right.
<wxl> elaborate on where behind the curtains it is
<wxl> provide links, etc.
<markthomas> So, we will build out the documentation a bit and davecore will try again.
<pleia2> markthomas: sounds good, thanks for coming :)
<davecore> Understood, thank you for your time and consideration. I'll work on the community aspect.
<tsimonq2> Thanks for coming :)
<wxl> thanks davecore!
<Wild_Man> cboltz, your up
<cboltz> Hi, I'm Christian Boltz and live in a small village in the Palatinate, Germany
<cboltz> The most surprising thing first - I don't use Ubuntu ;-)
<cboltz> I contribute to AppArmor (first bzr commit on April 1st 2011) and therefore apply (mostly) as upstream contributor
<cboltz> (you probably know that AppArmor is an important tool to make your system in general, and especially snaps secure)
<cboltz> The "biggest" thing I did was leading (as mentor) a GSoC project to rewrite aa-logprof etc. Since then, I also maintain the aa-* tools etc.
<cboltz> (before we moved the code to gitlab, I even managed to be the top contributor for AppArmor on launchpad ;-)
<cboltz> I also maintain some of the AppArmor profiles since years, and help with AppArmor-related bugreports of Debian, Ubuntu and openSUSE.
<cboltz> Needless to say that I plan to continue my work on AppArmor ;-)
<cboltz> I won't mention all the details here - just have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChristianBoltz ;-)
<cboltz> Oh, and you should probably have a look at the newest slide from my "AppArmor Crash Course" talk which I gave at several conferences: http://paste.opensuse.org/9438a50c (did I already mention that I find each and every bug? ;-)
<cboltz> BTW: sarnold, sbeattie - please don't tell John about this. If I get accepted, I'd like to surprise him at FOSDEM ;-)
<sarnold> cboltz: ha! This is awesome :)
 * sbeattie vouches for cboltz; he's done a lot of work upstream and responding to ubuntu apparmor bug reports.
<pleia2> cboltz: would you say bug reports are the only way you interact with the Ubuntu community directly?
<sarnold> fully agreed, cboltz's contributions to AppArmor, and the AppArmor communities in Ubuntu and Debian is legendary :)
<wxl> weird question, cboltz: as someone who seems to sort of "lives" outside the ubuntu community, why do you want an ubuntu membership?
<cboltz> pleia2: for interaction with the Ubuntu community, helping in bugreports is probably the biggest part
<cboltz> wxl: what about "because I can" (at least I hope so ;-)
<cboltz> more seriously - I'm a cross-distribution person
<wxl> i also note cboltz is very active on apparmor@lists.ubuntu.com which is not necessarily ubuntu-specific
<pleia2> ah, a mailing list too, that's good
<wxl> i find apparmor just confusing
<sarnold> and apparmor tool development, apparmor profile development, apparmor documentation ..
<pleia2> wxl: hehe
<wxl> like, as far as where all the resources are
<wxl> like it *SEEMS* like the launchpad project is the main source, but i'm not entirely sure
<pleia2> sarnold: I guess I can ask you this ;) is there a lot of Ubuntu-specific work that goes into that?
<cboltz> the code moved to gitlab.com some months ago
<cboltz> bugreports and releases still live on launchpad
<wxl> right. confusing :)
<pleia2> we have tens of thousands of people who could call themselves upstream contributors, but we're looking for ubuntu-specific work when it comes to membership
<sarnold> pleia2: the profiles certainly have ubuntu-specific aspects, a large amount of work goes into figuring out what is appropriate "shared" content for profiles among all distros, what is specific to ubuntu, what is specific to debian, what is specific to debian family of distributions, what's specific to suse, etc.
<pleia2> that's the impression I had, thank you
<cboltz> pleia2: I see your point, but - and this is probably not the answer you are looking for - the perfect work is something that is useful for *all* distributions
<pleia2> cboltz: oh I agree :)
<cboltz> that of course includes Ubuntu, but it's pointless to fix a bug only for Ubuntu and keep it everywhere else ;-)
<pleia2> indeed (I came to Ubuntu myself after doing packaging in Debian)
<sbeattie> cboltz: have you edited anything in the ubuntu wiki besides your membership application? I have a vague recollection of you doing so, but may be mis-remembering (and I can't remember how to get the wiki to show me)
<Wild_Man> #vote cboltz membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: cboltz membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<Wild_Man> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Wild_Man
<wxl> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from wxl
<tsimonq2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tsimonq2
 * wxl pokes popey
<popey> sorry, got distracted
<popey> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from popey
<cboltz> sbeattie: IIRC my user page is the only thing I did in the wiki so far
<Wild_Man> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: cboltz membership
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<cboltz> maybe you remember my reviews of the AppArmor pages in the Debian wiki? ;-)
<popey> Thanks everyone!
<pleia2> welcome cboltz, and thank you for your patience answering my questions :)
<wxl> congrats cboltz
<wxl> thx all
<sarnold> cboltz: congratulations :) thanks all
<cboltz> thanks!
<Wild_Man> Congrats cboltz
<pleia2> thanks for coming to support, sarnold!
<sbeattie> cboltz: congrats!
<pleia2> err, sbeattie!
<wxl> ^^ indeed, that was helpful
<Wild_Man> Thanks to all supporters
<cboltz> I'm really looking forward to see John's face when I tell him that I'm now an Ubuntu member ;-)
<sarnold> hehe
<Wild_Man> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Feb  1 21:06:21 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-02-01-20.03.moin.txt
<tyhicks> cboltz: hey - congrats!
<pleia2> cboltz: if this is an elaborate troll, I'm taking it back ;)
<wxl> do you think he'll be surprised cboltz ?
<cboltz> he doesn't know that I applied (unless he monitors the Membership wiki page), so my guess is yes
<wxl> what i mean is, do you think he thinks you don't deserve it? :)
<cboltz> I can't imagine that he would have voted -1 ;-)
<cboltz> but maybe he would be glad if I report less - and especially less scary - bugs :-P
<sarnold> hahaha
<wxl> you should have got him to come!
<cboltz> maybe, but then I wouldn't be able to surprise him in person ;-)
<sarnold> he's traveling for fossdem, right? hopefully he's asleep
<cboltz> right, AFAIK he's in Brussels already
<cboltz> but it's just 22:10 there, so I'm not sure if he is asleep already
<sarnold> he's gotta sleep *sometime* this week :)
<wxl> there's only one way to find out
<wxl> call him up!
<wxl> "john! john! i'm an ubuntu member!!!"
<wxl> "do you know what time it is?"
<wxl> "yes but i can now email from ubuntu.com!!!!"
<wxl> "what is wrong with you, christian? wait. dont' answer that."
<wxl> XD
<cboltz> lol
<sarnold> haha :)
<cboltz> I should probably tell you that one of my hobby is to collect funny quotes for my random mail signatures
<wxl> ahhh
<wxl> yes that last one would be a fitting addition XD
<cboltz> and what you just wrote clearly qualifies for my collection *g*
<wxl> don't bother with the context. just the last one :)
<cboltz> ;-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-28
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> Who's here?
<rharper> o/
<tsimonq2> Heya.
<slashd> o/
<cyphermox> o/
<rbasak> We have quorum!
<rbasak> Any chair volunteers?
<tsimonq2> Sure.
<tsimonq2> #startmeeting Ubuntu Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Jan 28 19:02:59 2019 UTC.  The chair is tsimonq2. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<blackboxsw> \0
<slashd> I'll chair the next one
<tsimonq2> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<tsimonq2> #subtopic cyphermox to handle the recent three packageset requests
<cyphermox> *not* all done, sorry.
<tsimonq2> Alright, we'll carry the agenda item.
<cyphermox> some of this is dependent on seed changes that the requesters should do beforehand, I need to get back to them
<cyphermox> (and making sense of all the changes, there's a fair amount)
<tsimonq2> Sure, thanks.
<tsimonq2> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
<tsimonq2> #subtopic Ryan Harper application for PPU
<tsimonq2> rharper: Hello!
<rharper> tsimonq2: Hi!
<tsimonq2> Could you introduce yourself?
<rharper> sure,  I'm Ryan Harper;  I work for Canonical, on the Ubuntu Server team, since Oct 2013;  I've been using Ubuntu since oh, say, Breezy
<tsimonq2> Cool :)
<tsimonq2> For reference: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RyanHarper/DeveloperApplicationPPU
<tsimonq2> Does anyone have any questions for rharper?
<rharper> cd installs to make my ThinkPad actually work well.  I've been in Open Source for about 20 years or so;  I've lots of experience with kernel, virtualization, servers, embedded systems, and at Canonical mostly focused on storage, networking, and cloud-init as well
<jbicha> o/
<rbasak> I guess we should ask the usual questions then?
<slashd> rharper, I didn't look in lp do you have any upload right atm ?
<rharper> slashd: no, I do not have any upload rights at this time
<rharper> PPAs don't count, I think for your question
<slashd> rharper, right was talking about the ubuntu archive
<rharper> yes, no upload rights to the archive
<slashd> rharper, where would you look if a package you have uploaded get stuck in -proposed to find the reason why it is stuck ?
<tsimonq2> rharper: Let's say either of these two packages are stuck in the -proposed pocket of the development release. What would you look at to see why that is the case?
<tsimonq2> slashd: Jinx.
<tsimonq2> (It's the same question.)
<slashd> tsimonq2, lol
<sarnold> lol
<rharper> I would look in the queue for the various releases, (upload queue)
<slashd> but let's say the package has been approve and build in -proposed (the package at this point is no longer in the upload queue)
<slashd> but didn't get release in -updates after a while
<slashd> where would you look to see what's going on with that package and see why it is not release yet
<rharper> for SRUs, I track a release in a bug which has links to the various bugs that all need verified before it can be released
<rharper>  This page tracks which packages have pending srus; http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html
<slashd> rharper, yep that's the answer I was looking for tks
<rharper> ok, for our projects, cloud-init/curtin we have an exception which has us track all of the bugs our upload will fix, and run verification on all of those; so we're the ones doing most of the testing
<rbasak> rharper: what about for the development release?
<rharper> rbasak: well, SRU's aren't for the development release;
<rbasak> No, I mean non-SRUs
<rbasak> When you upload to the development release.
<rbasak> Say for example you upload a new cloud-init to Disco, and you see something like this (but for cloud-init): https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libphp%2Dphpmailer
<jbicha> rharper: cloud-init was uploaded to disco on Saturday. Where would you check to find out why it isn't in disco yet (but only in disco-proposed)?
<rbasak> In this example you'll have just uploaded 6.0.6-0.1.
<rbasak> What would you do next?
<rharper> rbasak: for devel uploads, i'd check to see if the package failed to build, http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/
<rbasak> rharper: let's say it doesn't appear there. What next?
<rharper> there may be a dependency that hasn't landed yet,
<rharper> that is, something else may be holding up other packages from going into the archive;  In the absense of information, I'd likely head to #ubuntu-release and ask for some help
<tsimonq2> That could be correct, but how do you confirm that?
<cyphermox> rharper: do you know where the migration report lives?
<cyphermox> tsimonq2: rbasak: I think we would do well to be clearer with our questions so that what we're looking for isn't ambiguous
<rharper> cyphermox: no, I've not seen that URL
<cyphermox> ack
<slashd> rharper, one last question for me ... talking about devel release ... when should you stop introducing new features for let's say 'cloud-init' (for the current devel cycle) ?
<cyphermox> rharper: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration
<rharper> slashd: each ubuntu cycle has a FeatureFreeze date set by the release schedule;  ideally we'll need to have landed all of those features before that date;  otherwise we need FeatureFreeze Exceptions
<slashd> rharper, tks
<jbicha> rharper: are you familiar with the term NBS?
<rharper> cyphermox: thx
<rharper> jbicha: no, I've not seen that
<jbicha> rharper: the term comes from Debian and means "no longer built from source". See https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/nbs.html
<jbicha> in this case, netplan.io has stopped building its nplan transitional package but cloud-init still depends on that package name
<rharper> jbicha: interesting; yes we'll need disco to use the new name in the disco archive, we'll maintain the older deps in a our per-release branches ;
<jbicha> I don't think you're going to need that page very often; it's very specific to a particular kind of archive maintenance work
<jbicha> it's not required for this application at all, I was just mentioning it as something your team can follow up on later
<cyphermox> it's also something that shows up elsewhere
<cyphermox> (in other reports)
<rharper> jbicha: indeed
<jbicha> I don't have any other questions today ð
<blackboxsw> rharper: from my end, both cloud-init and curtin projects have a number of tools and scripts to streamline our release process. What do you feel could use more improvement to ensure quality or ease of release for the SRU verification process?
<rharper> blackboxsw: I think our biggest challenge is regression detection;  cloud-init runs in so many places, and we have to deal with upgrades and new instances; it's quite hard to ensure we've got as much coverage as possible;  We've got on our list (with partners) to enable more CI on target platforms; which will help raise confidence that releasing things won't break customers
<tsimonq2> Any other questions or are we ready to vote?
<jbicha> cloud-init is one of my favorite things made by Canonical :)
<tsimonq2> ^
<cyphermox> ready to vote.
<slashd> tsimonq2, I'm good to vote
<tsimonq2> #vote rharper PPU for cloud-init, curtin
<meetingology> Please vote on: rharper PPU for cloud-init, curtin
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<jbicha> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from jbicha
<tsimonq2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tsimonq2
<slashd> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from slashd
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<tsimonq2> rbasak?
<rbasak> +0 rharper is on my team at Canonical, so my usual (personal) policy applies: I abstain unless everyone else present is unanimously +1 and my vote is required for quorum or some other procedural issue.
<meetingology> +0 rharper is on my team at Canonical, so my usual (personal) policy applies: I abstain unless everyone else present is unanimously +1 and my vote is required for quorum or some other procedural issue. received from rbasak
<tsimonq2> ah
<tsimonq2> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: rharper PPU for cloud-init, curtin
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<rbasak> rharper: congratulations!
<tsimonq2> rharper: Congratulations. :)
<slashd> Congrats rharper
<blackboxsw> woot!
<rharper> \o/
<tsimonq2> Anyone want to volunteer to handle ACLs?
<slashd> tsimonq2, I'll do it
 * blackboxsw is greatful for the help  rharper can now provide
<tsimonq2> Alright, cool.
<sarnold> rharper: congratulations :)
<tsimonq2> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<blackboxsw> *grateful
<tsimonq2> Anything else, folks?
<rharper> sarnold: thanks!
<rbasak> tsimonq2: could you assign actions for slashd please, so we can track it?
<rbasak> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/KnowledgeBase#Actions_after_a_successful_applications
<rbasak> calls for two actions
<rbasak> slashd: and that link has instructions for you too
<slashd> rbasak, I appreciate it
<tsimonq2> rbasak: Oh, sure.
<tsimonq2> #action slashd to handle ACLs for rharper's PPU application
<meetingology> ACTION: slashd to handle ACLs for rharper's PPU application
<tsimonq2> #action slashd to announce rharper's successful application
<meetingology> ACTION: slashd to announce rharper's successful application
<tsimonq2> Alright, anything else?
<rbasak> Thanks!
<rbasak> There was a suggestion to better document what we expect applicants to know.
<tsimonq2> #action tsimonq2 to better document what we expect applicants to know
<meetingology> ACTION: tsimonq2 to better document what we expect applicants to know
<rbasak> Thanks :)
<tsimonq2> So we have it for the record. :)
<tsimonq2> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Jan 28 19:47:23 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-01-28-19.02.moin.txt
<rbasak> tsimonq2: thank you for chairing!
<tsimonq2> Thanks everyone!
<cyphermox> ta tsimonq2
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-29
 * doko waves
<didrocks> hey
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-01-31
<sil2100> o/
 * vorlon waves
<bdmurray> o/
<vorlon> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 31 16:01:49 2019 UTC.  The chair is vorlon. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<vorlon>  echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<vorlon> well that's no good
<vorlon> vorlon xnox cyphermox doko waveform sil2100 rbalint tdaitx bdmurray mwhudson juliank infinity
<xnox> ha
<xnox> i'm ready for once to be at the start =)
<juliank> but slow please
<juliank> :)
<xnox> hahahhahha
<vorlon>  * long time, no see!
<vorlon>  * two weeks ago: roadmap sprint in Cape Town
<vorlon>  * last week: traveling back Monday; off Tue-Fri
<vorlon>   * which means I was spending time on the readline transition and nodejs
<vorlon>  * this week:
<vorlon>   * Ubuntu Core 20 stratemagizing
<vorlon>   * Secure Boot discussions w/ partner
<vorlon>   * proposed-migration transitions
<vorlon>   * 18.04.2 is next week, a little bit of kibbitzing to go with it
<vorlon> (done)
<vorlon> xnox:
<xnox> * systemd v240 in disco-proposed
<xnox>  - more adt tests fixes/hunting
<xnox>  - filed lxd/apparmor issue (thanks for rbasak report)
<xnox>  - which lxd team has fixed, will be releasing
<xnox> * ubuiquity sru for .2 release
<xnox>  - uploaded, verified, and released
<xnox> * proposed migration
<bdmurray> juliank: the key is to ask questions
<xnox>  - working on unblocking systemd
<xnox>  - also fixed up git migration blockers
<xnox> * powerpc
<xnox>  - valgrind bugfix
<xnox> * s390x
<xnox>  - s390-tools SRUs for xenial & cosmic in unapproved
<xnox> * prepering slides for the systemd-resolved talk for fosdem
<xnox> * off to FOSDEM tomorrow, through sunday
<xnox> (done)
<cyphermox> - started attending UEFI Spec Working Group weekly call
<cyphermox> - e2fsprogs: SRU for corruption when resizing (bug LP: #1798562)
<cyphermox> - debugging/questions in #netplan
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1798562 in e2fsprogs (Ubuntu Cosmic) "After a side by side installation, resized filesystem is corrupted" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1798562
<cyphermox> - various SRU verifications for grub (trusty, bionic, cosmic)
<cyphermox> - Secure Boot: DKMS/shim SRUs for trusty/xenial, preparing GRUB SRU for SB enforcing on bionic
<cyphermox> - partman-efi: improve catching of missing ESP early in installer (bionic)
<cyphermox> - ubiquity: merge bind-mount for efivars (waiting to rebuild with partman-efi as well)
<cyphermox> (done)
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko> - handling -proposed ...
<doko> - isolated and forwarded three more GCC issues upstream
<doko> - GCC 7 & GCC 8 updates
<doko> - having fun with the new laptop, crashing when the screen blanks :-/
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> waveform:
<waveform> * Back-porting arm64 fix to gpiozero (now applied upstream)
<doko> ohh, and getting binutils ready for disco ...
<waveform> * WiringPi packaging ongoing (got something that builds and works locally, but not in a PPA ...)
<waveform> * Investigating regressions caused by python3-numpy (something's changed in matmul?)
<waveform> * Got Pi3 builds working locally (yay!) but not booting (boo!) - missing kernel+initrd in boot partition
<waveform> * U-boot has received a stay of execution on Pi
<waveform> * Testing images (including armhf) on various Pis (2B, 3B, 3B+, CM3)
<waveform> * RPi.GPIO packaging done - poke sil2100 for sponsorship :)
<waveform> (done)
<xnox> doko, eewww what laptop is it?
<juliank> ok we can go faster now
<sil2100> waveform: I confirmed that the daily-built images boot so I guess it was something busted in the local live-build run, let's debug it later ;p
<bdmurray> also poke sil2100 since its his turn
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - raspi3 'upstreaming':
<sil2100>   * Removing unneeded files from linux-firmware-raspi2 and re-releasing
<sil2100>   * Validating current state of arm64 raspi3 images, sending images to CE
<waveform> sil2100, yup - sorry! :)
<sil2100>   * Creating future-work cards for missing pi3 work
<sil2100>   * Fixed build-ability of the classic gadget tree with snapcraft
<sil2100>   * Added full-cross-compilation support to the gadget tree with snapcraft
<sil2100>   * Discussed the road forward with pi3 support
<sil2100> - core18 code reviews
<sil2100> - Verifying pl langpacks
<sil2100> - Release of 18.04.2 verified langpacks
<sil2100> - Fixed libdbusmenu and libidn FTBFS in bionic
<sil2100> - Tested core18 pi3 arm64 gadget snap locally, sent for CE testing
<sil2100> - Prepared json blob for signing, waiting for naming consensus
<sil2100> - Investigated Bileto autopkgtest test-result reporting not working due to cache invalidation
<sil2100> (done)
<tdaitx> rbalint is out right?
<bdmurray> tdaitx: yes
<tdaitx> Short week: working half-days
<tdaitx> * openjdk-11 transition
<tdaitx>   - documenting the approach & timeline
<tdaitx>   - transition will include backports into bionic-security so rechecking for additional backports
<tdaitx>   - triaging failed rebuilds and testing fixes
<tdaitx> * ongoing openjdk-8 update to 8u201
<tdaitx>   - merge conflicts after m4 autoconf files were updated upstream
<tdaitx>   - massaging autopkgtest scripts to fail only on _regressions_
<tdaitx> Other:
<tdaitx> - flying tomorrow afternoon to Brussels
<tdaitx> - at FOSDEM during the weekend
<tdaitx> - at OpenJDK workshop on Monday
<tdaitx> - taking a train to Stuttgart Tuesday afternoon (hopefully it will have a working internet connection)
<tdaitx> (done)
<bdmurray> modifications to ET mojo spec to use autocert (still in progress)
<doko> German trains and working internet, hahahahha ...
<bdmurray> wrote a blog post about PPAs and upgrading releases of Ubuntu
<bdmurray> replaced kernel bug triage contact person in bugbot scripts
<bdmurray> uploaded a fix for apport-symptoms gnome-session bug LP: #1813428
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1813428 in apport-symptoms (Ubuntu) ""sorry, you are not running GNOME or KDE" while running GNOME" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1813428
<bdmurray> review of bugs tagged rls-bb-incoming
<bdmurray> submitted ubiquity MP re not logging "Ecryptfs is deprecated" in every bug
<bdmurray> special SRU reviews for sil2100
<juliank> doko: worked for me
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> oh, is it already my time?
<sil2100> bdmurray: thanks again for those!
<juliank> * apt SRUs
<juliank> * gnupg2 autopkgtest replacement
<bdmurray> you'd said to go fast now
<juliank> * networkd-dispatcher bug 1787495
<ubottu> bug 1787495 in networkd-dispatcher (Ubuntu Cosmic) "no explanation for the events in the networkd-dispatcher manpage" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1787495
<juliank> * apt hardening
<juliank> * apt merge request reviewing and merging (thanks mvo for json hook EPIPE fix)
<juliank> * hddemux 0.4-7ubuntu0.1 SRU for bug 1814062
<ubottu> bug 1814062 in hddemux (Ubuntu Cosmic) "Failing autopkgtest on cosmic" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1814062
<juliank> (done)
 * juliank almost pastged in #ubuntu-installer
<juliank> doko: ok, the on-board wifi is crap, but luckily I had lte :)
<bdmurray> infinity doesn't seem to be in here
<bdmurray> vorlon: what's next on the agenda? there was some discussion at the last minute about what the agenda should really be
<bdmurray> s/minute/meeting/
<vorlon> ok, what was the outcome of that discussion?
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<bdmurray> well doko wanted to add a whole bunch of stuff
<doko> bdmurray: don't you see the rls-bb-incoming bugs?
<bdmurray> doko: ?
<doko> LINK: https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<vorlon> doko: can you email the foundations list with any proposed additions to the agendas so that there's a paper trail?
<doko> didn't we agree on that already two weeks ago?
<vorlon> agree on what?
<vorlon> I wasn't here 2 weeks ago so I don't know what was agreed
<doko> to walk over https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<doko> every week
<vorlon> ok; the current topic is bugs. bdmurray ?
<bdmurray> bug 1772222
<ubottu> bug 1772222 in rsyslog (Ubuntu Bionic) "dangling symlink in /etc/rsyslog.d breaks rsyslogd" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1772222
<xnox> that bug number is ugly
<bdmurray> I found that when I was reviewing the rls-bb-incoming bugs
<bdmurray> xnox: 4 of a kind!
<vorlon> bdmurray: throw it to the backlog?
<vorlon> rather, I will
<bdmurray> Is that conjure-up's fault though?
<bdmurray> vorlon: ack, thanks
<vorlon> I think it's rsyslog's fault that it breaks under these conditions
<xnox> bdmurray, both.
<xnox> bdmurray, conjure-up should have cleaned up its mess; and rsyslog should be more resiliant
<vorlon> card created
<vorlon> bdmurray: next?
<bdmurray> okay, moving on bug 1766102 - adam targetted it to bionic and I wonder if it really should be
<ubottu> bug 1766102 in debhelper (Ubuntu Bionic) "dh_installchangelogs fails if version is 0" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1766102
<bdmurray> or rather should we tag it notfixing
<vorlon> bdmurray: agreed, notfixing
<vorlon> if infinity has another reason to think it should be SRUed, he can follow up
<bdmurray> juliank: you seemed to have some idea about bug 1801629. Should it be fixed in ubiquity?
<ubottu> bug 1801629 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Disco) "xubuntu-core needs to depend on cryptsetup and lvm2 or 'apt autoremove' will make a LUKS+LVM encrypted root partition non-bootable" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1801629
<juliank> bdmurray: yes, it should
<juliank> bdmurray: it's just a matter of running the command from the comment in the installed system after having done all package changes
<cyphermox> so they dropped relevant deps from their seed?
<vorlon> no, we changed the behavior of autoremoval
<juliank> cyphermox: the problem is that my "manually installed" minimization script runs on the "live" image
<cyphermox> ah, right
<juliank> it marks the packages as auto that are reachable from a metapackage
<vorlon> juliank: are you on track to fix that for 18.04.2, given the bug targeting?
<vorlon> (upload deadline: yesterday or so)
<juliank> and cryptsetup and friend are recommended for that
<juliank> vorlon: I have no idea of ubiquity code, so maybe someone else wants to take that over
<juliank> vorlon: ah, but this only affects 18.10, not 18.04
<bdmurray> oh, well then that makes things easier
<juliank> except for the OEM image which seems to do its own thing
<vorlon> oh, ok
<vorlon> moving on then?
<juliank> guess so
<bdmurray> what actions should we take on that? card it for disco, won't fix for cosmic and something else for oem?
<juliank> there is a card for it in committed, it might want to go the the backlog
<juliank> I pulled it into in progress for analysing
<juliank> I might keep it open for cosmic in case we do a respin for apt
<vorlon> so it sounds to me like everything that needs doing is done
<bdmurray> okay, then bug 1811695 - juliank do you have an opinion on what update-manager / aptdaemon should be doing here?
<ubottu> bug 1811695 in update-manager (Ubuntu Disco) "/usr/bin/update-manager:RuntimeError(org.freedesktop.DBus.Python.RuntimeError):_on_clicked:_deferable:_convert_dbus_exception:_convert_dbus_exception:cancel:__call__:call_blocking:wait_for_lock:acquire:acquire:_inline_callbacks:get_uid_from_dbus_name:return_value:_inline_callbacks:_cancel:_inline_callbacks" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1811695
<juliank> that's a long title
<juliank> am
<juliank> um
<juliank> wait and retry
<juliank> kind of similar to what mvo had in mind for apt: https://salsa.debian.org/apt-team/apt/merge_requests/6
<juliank> "apt: retry acquire the cache if it is already locked for 120s"
<juliank> in any case, that should not be a new bug
<gaughen> vorlon, cyphermox has a wiki page, I think, for running this meeting - could we move to using that consistently?  then if we all agree to add a topic, we can just update that
<bdmurray> juliank: you mean not new for disco?
<juliank> yeah, that sounds like a generic thing
<vorlon> gaughen: ok, no one has told me where this wiki page is :)
<bdmurray> juliank: okay, I'll look for previous ones
<bdmurray> vorlon: that's because he's making it right now
<cyphermox> not wiki
<cyphermox> http://people.ubuntu.com/~cyphermox/meetings/foundations.html
<bdmurray> since gaughen called him out ;-)
<gaughen> close enough.. I almost said a wiki-like-thng
<gaughen> thing
<juliank> bdmurray: could also pop up a diaalog saying "Busy, try again later" or something I guess
<vorlon> not editable
<vorlon> cyphermox: can you move it to the wiki? :)
<cyphermox> nope.
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> my browser can't read people.u.c
<cyphermox> because there's javascript in there, to shuffle
<vorlon> I guess we'll never know what it says
<vorlon> heh
<cyphermox> :)
<cyphermox> your browser can't p.u.c?
<bdmurray> juliank: oky, thanks
<vorlon> cyphermox: yes, it's difficult that way
<cyphermox> "what a p.o.s" ;)
<vorlon> it protects me from viewing sites that people won't let me edit
<cyphermox> hahaha
<xnox>   win
<vorlon> bdmurray: any more on bugs?
<cyphermox> point is, it could sure be elsewhere than specifically there
<bdmurray> If I can't fix it, I don't want to see it.
<cyphermox> I'm sure we could have a ~foundations or something so everyone could modify.
<bdmurray> vorlon: nope, not today
<vorlon> ok
<bdmurray> everyone could modify but vorlon couldn't see?
<juliank> I can't even ssh into those servers as me I think
<vorlon> [TOPIC] Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Team proposed-migration report
<vorlon> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<vorlon> doko: is this your topic to drive?
<juliank> (it should be...)
<doko> I can, ...
<xnox> systemd is in a better shape now, but still not migratable yet
<juliank> doko is our excuses wizard, right?
<doko> things to look at: spice
<xnox> and juliank was doing gnupg stuff, no?
<doko> enigmail
<doko> heat-dashboard
<juliank> xnox: yeah, I replaced the autopkgtest
<vorlon> I'm confused by spice, because lz4 didn't previously list it as a blocker
<doko> lintian ftbfs
<doko> buls
<vorlon> ah spice has a new version in -proposed that passed for the first time
<doko> vuls even
<doko> xnox: gnupg2 is fixed?
<vorlon> so we can badtest && rerun the test with all-proposed (doing)
<juliank> vorlon: that is annoying
<vorlon> that leaves systemd as the lz4 blocker
<juliank> doko: yes, gnupg2 is fixed
<juliank> need to retrigger
<xnox> hmmmm heat-dashboard & horizon is like jamespage and/or his friends?
<xnox> maybe coreycb
<vorlon> xnox: if we rerun systemd autopkgtests for lz4 with all-proposed are they going to pass now?
<xnox> vorlon, yes v239 is broken for lz4, v240 is fixed for lz4
<xnox> vorlon, but there are other systemd regressions in v240
<xnox> vorlon, it is safe to release lz4 without systemd
<doko> juliank: can you do that?
<juliank> yes
<vorlon> xnox: ok, will override
<xnox> vorlon, the systemd test suite was "lets test a bug in lz4, yeah, still there" but now 'lz4 is fixed and not buggy'
<coreycb> xnox: yes heat-dashboard & horizon are ours
<xnox> coreycb, please fix them =) or pester people. they look hot on http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<xnox> coreycb, well ubuntu-openstack portion of the report
<vorlon> xnox: this will of course make systemd autopkgtests fail consistently in devel, but that's more or less status quo
<xnox> vorlon, yes!
<coreycb> xnox: will do
<vorlon> ok, hinted
<doko> juliank: gnupg2 triggers some failing tests itself
<sil2100> I could try looking at heat-dashboard I guess?
<sil2100> Ah, coreycb is on it
<sil2100> Goooood
<sil2100> ;)
<juliank> doko: meh, there are no changes in gnupg outside debian/tests
<xnox> vorlon, ah, looks there is upstream progress https://github.com/kapouer/marked-man/issues/19
<juliank> xnox: The user named '~xnox' has no PPA named 'ubuntu/nonvirt'
<vorlon> xnox: huzzah
<juliank> xnox: failing software-properties test case
<xnox> juliank, that one is dangerous!
<xnox> no no that's different!
<juliank> xnox: https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-disco/disco/armhf/s/software-properties/20190130_180736_23562@/log.gz
<juliank> xnox: but only one failure, that's odd
<vorlon> xnox: are you taking an action to follow up w/ coreycb and jamespage on heat-dashboard, horizon?
<vorlon> oh, coreycb already replied, sorry ;)
<juliank> xnox: it's working on the test after
<xnox> add-apt-repository ppa:xnox/nonvirt --yes --no-update
<vorlon> doko: you seem to have skipped over pillow in your list; perhaps you know the status but I don't
<xnox> i'll work on software-properties adt
<doko> vorlon: mir pending security review
<vorlon> ok
<xnox> $ lxc launch ubuntu-daily:disco
<xnox> cannot read mount namespace identifier of pid 1: Permission denied
<vorlon> doko: and do you know anything about lintian's ftbfs? "file-references-package-build-path" unexpected output, seems like a toolchain behavior difference vs Debian
<doko> no, didn't look yet
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> sounds like we've identified next steps on a reasonable chunk of these, and the queue is definitely coming don
<vorlon> down
<vorlon> so I'm happy with that
<vorlon> doko: anything further to discuss?
 * xnox is afk
<coreycb> xnox: fyi  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-django-debreach/+bug/1805690  will unblock horizon. it has a security team ack now.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1805690 in python-django-debreach (Ubuntu) "[MIR] python-django-debreach" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<doko> no, the other stuff is still grayed out ...
<vorlon> ok
<juliank> vorlon, doko is that https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=920536?
<vorlon> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<ubottu> Debian bug 920536 in src:lintian "lintian: fails to build because of test failure" [Serious,Open]
<juliank> Fix FTBFS by avoiding "self" false-positives when checking for file-references-package-build-path in the Lintian test suite. (Closes: #920536)
<vorlon> juliank: yes; so how about if I just remove the package from -proposed and wait for Debian to fix it (thanks)
<vorlon> anything else?
<cyphermox> yep
<cyphermox> I'll put the meeting stuff on the wiki under FoundationsTeam/
<cyphermox> vorlon: that way we can edit
<bdmurray> There's a FoundationsTam wiki?
<cyphermox> there is
<cyphermox> it's old
<bdmurray> older than us?
<cyphermox> yeah
<sil2100> Older than the world
<cyphermox> I mean. *SO* old
 * xnox back
<vorlon> cyphermox: ta
<xnox> coreycb, tah
<vorlon> cyphermox: share the exact link once it exists?
<cyphermox> I guess take the opportunity to update the wiki page Members section if you want, too
<vorlon> (or declare it now, before it exists :)
<cyphermox> vorlon: yup
<cyphermox> MeetingScript
<cyphermox> whatever.
<vorlon> ok
<vorlon> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 31 16:58:18 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-01-31-16.01.moin.txt
<vorlon> thanks, everyone!
<sil2100> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-01-27
<slashd> o/
<slashd> Seems like no other DMB member are available at the moment, there is a sprint going on this week, that might explain why. As I don't see applications in the agenda for today and we don't have quorum ... let's reconvene in 2 weeks.
<cyphermox> slashd: I am there..
<cyphermox> anyway, via email
<sarnold> hey cyphermox :) are you at the sprint!?
<cyphermox> sarnold: no
<sarnold> cyphermox: dang. you gave me a moment of hope :) hehe
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-01-28
<doko> o/
<didrocks> hey doko
<doko> I wouldn't mind if we skip it today, still busy with 3.8, or is there anything urgent?
<didrocks> I donât think there is anything urgent from my side at least
#ubuntu-meeting 2020-01-30
<juliank> o/
<waveform> o/
<bdmurray> o/
<tdaitx> o/
<bdmurray> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Jan 30 16:03:05 2020 UTC.  The chair is bdmurray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<bdmurray> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<bdmurray> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity mwhudson juliank waveform)
<bdmurray> tdaitx sil2100 waveform infinity doko bdmurray vorlon mwhudson rbalint juliank xnox
 * xnox win
<bdmurray> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> Short week: out last week
<tdaitx> * openjdk-8
<tdaitx>   - investigated os::commit_memory errors on armhf
<tdaitx>   - no proper reproducer (yet), happens intermittently, more so with some particular tests, will contact upstream with more data
<tdaitx>   - updated test scripts to copy & keep hs_err log files; need to copy this functionality to the other openjdk packages
<tdaitx> * setting up test comparison for jck-11
<tdaitx> * various openjdk blacklists and hinting
<tdaitx> (done)
<bdmurray> sil2100:
<tdaitx> ops, I meant arm64, not armhf, typo! =)
<bdmurray> waveform:
<waveform> * Back-ported LP: #1311056 to xenial, bionic, eoan
<waveform> * Fixed and LP: #1861292 and back-ported to bionic
<waveform> * Lots of work on getting core18 to boot (nothing yet, but some interesting notes from the kernel team on possible incorrect dtb being loaded by the bootloader)
<waveform> * More testing on focal and bionic .4 classic images; no issues (other than the flash-kernel one above)
<waveform> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1311056 in python-apt (Ubuntu Eoan) "[SRU] apt-add-repository adds duplicate commented/disabled source lines" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1311056
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1861292 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu Bionic) "flash-kernel failure during kernel upgrade" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1861292
<sil2100> Crap
 * sil2100 not ready anwyway
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko>  - finished unversioned python removal, python-defaults migrated
<doko>  - started python3.8 defaults transition
<doko>  - gcc-10 update
<doko>  - binutils & gdb updates
<doko>  - more unrelated transition work
<doko> (done)
<bdmurray> bdmurray: its a me!
<bdmurray> updated meta-release files for 19.04 End of Life
<bdmurray> updated daisy code base for 19.04 End of Life
<bdmurray> learned how to use autodeploy with the Error Tracker
<bdmurray> researched retracing queues growing huge
<bdmurray> discovered issue with retracer configuration and ddebs key
<bdmurray> emailed ubuntu-devel regarding retracing backlog
<bdmurray> tested a distribution upgrade from X to B w/ -proposed
<bdmurray> uploaded walinuxagent to F and SRUs (LP: #1851064)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1851064 in walinuxagent (Ubuntu Eoan) "[SRU] Update WALinuxAgent to 2.2.45" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1851064
<sil2100> I can go now
<bdmurray> SRU verification of LP: #1856684
<bdmurray> attended Cape Town sprint
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1856684 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "Populate .disk/info in ubuntu-image built images" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856684
<bdmurray> â done
<vorlon>  * short week, out most of Thursday and Friday afternoon
<vorlon>  * proposed-migration: worked on libffi transition, miscellaneous others
<vorlon>  * disco EOL: running 'swift delete' in a loop for the past 3 days to get rid of the autopkgtest usage
<vorlon> (done)
<sil2100> I'll go now o/
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - 18.04.4 - stuff, lots of stuff, busy busy, no panic yet tho
<sil2100> (done)
<sil2100> (didn't have time to write up anything better)
<bdmurray> rbalint is still out
<bdmurray> juliank:
<juliank> * Sponsored flash-kernel uploads for waveform
<juliank> * dug a bit further into openblas / hypre (LP: #1860601), and other autopkgtest regressions and migrations
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1860601 in openblas (Ubuntu) "openblas: causes autopkgtest failure in hypre armhf" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860601
<juliank> * could not investigate apport regression as apt just segfaulted in autopkgtest image :/
<juliank> * apt 1.9.8, fixing crash in apt 1.9.7, slightly improving performance, and changing disco mentions to focal
<juliank> * update-notifier pep8 -> pycodestyle change
<juliank> * synced python-apt 1.9.5
<juliank> * merged autopkgtest 5.11
<juliank> * merged irssi 1.2.2
<juliank> * re-added the pep8 binary package to pep8 to ease the python-defaults transition
<juliank> * work on powerpc-utils, reviewing patches
<xnox> doko:  are you planning to do gcc-9 and gcc-8 uploads to focal? i.e. with just newer stuff from branches that are available? cause there are s390x fixes.....
<juliank> * reviewing specs
<juliank> * in the progress of reimplementing kernel autoremoval for apt
<juliank> (done)
<doko> xnox: at some point, yes
<bdmurray> xnox: your turn
<xnox> Back from Cape Town Sprint
<xnox> Off to Brussels for FOSDEM / escaping Brexit tomorrow
<xnox> Updated s390-tools LP: #1860574 LP: #1860531 LP: #1859018 LP: #1853308
<xnox> TODO: AA to approve s390-tools upload https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/focal/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=s390-tools
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1860574 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[UBUNTU 20.04] zkey: Fix display of clear key size for XTS keys" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860574
<xnox> Uploaded livecd-rootfs changes to enable SSH access on s390x
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1860531 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "IPL on z15 always performed regardless of the secure-boot related settings" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860531
<xnox> Uploaded livecd-rootfs to use the right oem-20.04 flavour, which actually is just oem flavour, with matching ubuntu-cdimage changes, reviewed by Laney
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1859018 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[UBUNTU] zkey: Fix listing of keys on file systems reporting DT_UNKNOWN." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1859018
<xnox> Filed bug report that cloud-init crashes with static network configuration
<ubottu> Error: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1853308 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1853308). The error has been logged
<xnox> Started mailing list discussion with server team that cloud-init does not harvest netplan.yaml that our initrd generates
<xnox> Rebasing numpy-less boost on i386 onto boost1.71 builds, in preparation for ABI transition
<xnox> Uploaded new qclib LP: #1852718
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1852718 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "[20.04 FEAT] Upgrade qclib 2.0.1" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1852718
<xnox> Uploaded casper with finalrd dep into bionic for point release LP: #1840122
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1840122 in linux (Ubuntu Eoan) "System fails to reboot from live session or ubiquity-dm - squashfs_read_data failed to read block" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1840122
<xnox> Working with frank / ryan / mwhudson on debugging s390x curtin / subiquity / multipath failing to complete the install
<xnox> Uploaded xdmf to unbreak really bad py3.8/cmake packaging
<xnox> done
<bdmurray> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-ff-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<bdmurray> there seem to be quite a few here
<bdmurray> bug 1860531 is targetted and tagged (lame)
<ubottu> bug 1860531 in Ubuntu on IBM z Systems "IPL on z15 always performed regardless of the secure-boot related settings" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860531
<xnox> that's in progress
<xnox> needs AA to approve mu upload, as mentioned in my status with TODO
<bdmurray> bug 1860432
<ubottu> bug 1860432 in systemd (Ubuntu) "juju agent fails to start on focal " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860432
<vorlon> Âµ
<xnox> so needs forwarding bug report to upstream systemd based on comment #1
<xnox> i guess rbalint or I can take it
<xnox> it's not critical to fix though
<bdmurray> so let's card that
<xnox> because with juju team we did a bit of a "but why are you doing this?!"
<xnox> and they are changing code to be more normal.
<bdmurray> bug 1861353
<ubottu> bug 1861353 in glibc (Ubuntu) "libc6-dev:amd64 is not co-installable with libc6-dev:s390x" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1861353
<vorlon> xnox: but the juju part is fixed, so is this critical for anything to change on the systemd side?
<xnox> vorlon:  correct juju is going to stop using subdirectories, but it is a potential upstream regression nonetheless
<xnox> (worth flagging it up to systemd people, even if they simply release note it)
<vorlon> ok; so we can take it for further investigation but we might decline to change the behavior, sure
<bdmurray> lets go ahead and target and card this one
 * vorlon nods
<bdmurray> bug 1859858
<ubottu> bug 1859858 in systemd (Ubuntu Focal) "udev has truncated ID_SERIAL value for scsi disk" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1859858
<bdmurray> This one is already targetted so I'll card it.
<bdmurray> bug 1860957
<ubottu> bug 1860957 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ZFS installation crash when ESP already exists" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860957
<bdmurray> That should go to the desktop team.
<bdmurray> bug 1843063
<ubottu> bug 1843063 in lshw (Ubuntu) "lshw -json output invalid in Eoan" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1843063
<bdmurray> Let's land their patch, so I'll target and card it.
<xnox> https://ezix.org/src/ycheng/lshw/commit/82393aa9b59307a443677df7340a1dd38847a5ef.patch
<bdmurray> Also bug 1860406 is new / undecided
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1860406 could not be found
<bdmurray> bug 1850406
<ubottu> bug 1850406 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "python3-distupgrade small misprint bug" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1850406
<bdmurray> that's the one I meant
<bdmurray> I've an upload of u-r-u to do anyway so I'll take that and queue jump with it
<bdmurray> nothing new in rls-ee-
<bdmurray> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-bb-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<sil2100> BB IS CLOSED
<bdmurray> bug 1854839 still has work for me
<ubottu> bug 1854839 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Fresh Bionic install hangs forever at 66% waiting for os-prober" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1854839
<sil2100> STOOP
<sil2100> (just kidding)
<bdmurray> bug 1856560
<ubottu> bug 1856560 in util-linux (Ubuntu) "ds-identify - stuck in uninterruptible sleep state" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1856560
<bdmurray> We seem to have talked about this before.
<bdmurray> okay, xnox will look at the comments
<bdmurray> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<bdmurray> vorlon: can you help here?
<vorlon> ack
<vorlon> python3.7, python3.8 are entangled in the libffi transition which I'm working through (libffi itself got its migratability reset by a ruby2.7 autopkgtest regression, which I've hinted away again; we're only about 2 packages away from this getting through)
<vorlon> libtimedate-perl causing libsoap-wsdl-perl regression, who wants this?
<vorlon> [LINK] https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/focal/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<vorlon> btw
<vorlon> xnox: ^^ libtimedate-perl?
<vorlon> bdmurray: can you take libcgi-pm-perl?
<vorlon> libuv1 is figuring out whether to fix or hint i386, so I'll take that unless someone else is keen
<vorlon> libffi, glib2.0 are all part of the same deal
<juliank> aptdaemon: should force-badtest aptdaemon/all/arm64 IMO
<vorlon> juliank: ok, I'll assign that to you to follow through on
<xnox> vorlon:  are you assigning that to me? ok....
<bdmurray> vorlon: okay
<vorlon> libgpg-error is another i386 one, would anybody else like to take one of these?
<vorlon> crickets
<vorlon> fine, I'll take libgpg-error and libjsoncpp too
<doko> open-iscsi and python-dateutil are in the works
<vorlon> unattended-upgrades needs an assignee.  doko?
<doko> where do you see this?
<vorlon> doko: the list that we're going through right now
<juliank> No
<vorlon> can you follow up on unattended-upgrades?
<juliank> unattended-upgrades we know why it's failing
<juliank> It's going to be fixed in a new apt release
<vorlon> ok, that sounds like juliank is claiming it then
<juliank> yes
<vorlon> ok
<juliank> Just finalizing the fixes
<vorlon> libcap-ng is tied to python3-defaults, which we know the status of
<vorlon> doko: who is working on open-iscsi and python-dateutil?
<vorlon> (you said "in the works" but not by who)
<doko> nobody, they are waiting for the tests to finish
<vorlon> doko: does that mean you retriggered tests?  since the tests shouldn't have taken 5 days
<doko> yes
<vorlon> if so, I'll consider these yours :)
<vorlon> python3-defaults, doko is obviously working on, if other people have time to pitch in as well that would be good (I'll be helping with it but only after I finish libffi)
<juliank> wooohoo, CI for APT fix just passed
<doko> yes, please.
<doko> update-manager?
<vorlon> update-manager is part of the python3-defaults transition, does it need particular attention?
<doko> can we ignore all the tryton stuff?
<doko> scheduled for removal in Debian anyway
<vorlon> ignore, no. remove, yes
<xnox> we should kill tryton stuff
<xnox> and odoo / openerp / tinyerp too
<xnox> Odd_Bloke:  and xnox no longer care about it =)
<vorlon> we can follow up on that on #ubuntu-release
<vorlon> gdb vs python?
<Odd_Bloke> xnox: :D
<doko> retried
<vorlon> doko: ok
<vorlon> sl-modem is more i386, so
<bdmurray> what was retried?
<vorlon> bdmurray: the python autopkgtest failures with new gdb
<bdmurray> okay so update-manager still needs looking at?
<vorlon> and then p11-kit and talloc are part of the aforementioned transitions
<vorlon> certainly looks like update-manager needs fixing for python3.8
<vorlon> so it's worth someone taking that one specifically
<vorlon> bdmurray: ?
<bdmurray> I can have a look
<vorlon> thanks
<vorlon> and that's all
 * juliank just used the big hammer and retried all python-apt triggered-tests that failed
<doko> one more, libreoffice/amd64 ftbfs with out-of-dis-space
<bdmurray> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<doko> ore here: one more, libreoffice/amd64 ftbfs with out-of-disk-space
<bdmurray> I'm probably gonna end up taking a half day to aid my recovery
<doko> desktop is aware
<bdmurray> I'm also taking a swap day on Monday
<vorlon> ah I am also off tomorrow
<doko> and one more: https://bugs.launchpad.net/auto-package-testing/+bug/1860763
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1860763 in Auto Package Testing "the image for the autopkg tests has a big python3 stack installed" [Undecided,New]
<vorlon> I know Laney has commented on the bug
<doko> please can we fix that, especially now with all the python3 stuff going on?
<juliank> yes
<juliank> essentially mark everything auto
<vorlon> pointing out that you'll never have a guarantee that there are no extra packages installed in the test bed
<doko> vorlon: there's no comment
<juliank> mark ubuntu-minimal and whitelisted packages manual
<juliank> then run autoremove
<vorlon> oh, it wasn't on the bug
<vorlon> I saw a reply from him somewher
<juliank> I think we can do that
<Laney> IRC
<vorlon> right
<juliank> I think my idea should work, just need to figure out the whitelist
<Laney> No problem with attempting to minimise the testbed, but the point still stands and it could be another package down the line
<vorlon> it is a reasonable improvement to try to minimize the contents of the testbed image, if for no other reason than it speeds up upgrades
<juliank> sure
<vorlon> but also what Laney said
<vorlon> package tests shouldn't misbehave in the presence of extra packages and if they do that's a bug
<bdmurray> alright will y'all follow up in the bug?
<juliank> vorlon: I don't think we have test-conflicts yet, might be useful, idk
<vorlon> juliank: that's one way to ensure tests always behave properly, but in the absence of that there's no test that couldn't be fixed (upstream or whatever) to just do what we want in the presence of extra stuff
<juliank> true
<juliank> the reverse is also true
<juliank> tests could be passing that should be failing because they miss a dependency
<vorlon> sure, but in both cases you'd have to first discover the difference between testbed implementations and then change the package
<vorlon> anyway, the bug is valid
<vorlon> but I don't think it's high priority, it's really corner-case
<bdmurray> okay, anything else?
<bdmurray> alrighty then, thanks everybody
<bdmurray> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Jan 30 16:54:39 2020 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2020/ubuntu-meeting.2020-01-30-16.03.moin.txt
<sil2100> Thanks o/
