#ubuntu-meeting 2005-09-12
<JaneW> ** REMINDER** Edubuntu update meeting NOW 
<JaneW> hello
<JaneW> guys I have to leave at 3pm sharp
<ogra> hi
<JaneW> 13:00 UTC
<jamey3> hi
<JaneW> so let's try to stay on topic today
<magnon> hey
<ogra> oki, quick status update form here
<JaneW> I have a nmeeting at Mark's alma mater ;)
<JaneW> ogra: the floor is yours
<ogra> the CD is almost in shape, there are two issues left where manual intervention is required
<ogra> one of them i'm just solvng, the other one was solved sunday but waits for a upload of the ltsp package...
<jsgotangco> hello evil flint_ 
<flint_> god it is so damn early...
<ogra> it might occur that both cant happen before preview of ubuntu, since all ressources i need are blocke for that currently
<ogra> so it might be that we have our preiew release tow or three days late...
<ogra> thats all from my side for now... i'm eagerly waiting for more test reports :)
<flint_> i like it..."evil flint" it has a cute sort of ring to it.
<magnon> ogra: installing atm... but I recon that a couple of days push shouldn't hurt at all since it's a first release?
<magnon> (and has no public demands :P)
<ogra> it has :)
<ogra> and i'd like to match the release date.... bt i'm not really after matching preview ...
<magnon> I'll put away everything and help closer to release if you need it
<ogra> the CD is good enough for testing now.... thats what counts
<magnon> preview is a bit less important :)
<magnon> (at least for edubuntu)
<ogra> questions anyone ? 
<coarsesalt> yes.
<coarsesalt> I'm very excited about, and very new to, this whole process...
<ogra> shoot then :)
<flint_> ollie, you know Elkner held for 4 periods and had to get his major hooligans to break it in the afternoon
<coarsesalt> we'll be annoucing this release on the podcast this weekend, and i'm wondering where to tell people to go for support
<jsgotangco> errr
<jsgotangco> hmmm
<jsgotangco> #edubuntu =)
<coarsesalt> Are there things that are edubuntu specific
<coarsesalt> and ubuntu specific
<flint_> ah support...
* jsgotangco evil grin
<coarsesalt> notice the 'new to' section of my intro... :)
<JaneW> ogra: I am going to speak to mdz about staggering our milestones...
<ogra> coarsesalt, yup, the edubuntu specific stuff should go to #edubuntu and edubuntu-devel@
<flint_> you see, this is different from a bunch of guy (and gal) geeks sitting in their basements screwing with their computers, this has profile at every school it is attempted.
<coarsesalt> flint_ which is what we are trying to organize with various school boards
<JaneW> magnon: thanks for the offer of help much appreciated
<coarsesalt> only problem is, we see the potential and are lacking in experience
<JaneW> belated hello to the evil one
<ogra> flint_, as long as i dont get more info, i cant do anything
<flint_> As a member of the Arlington County Public School Information Technology Advisory Council, I tell you that these folks are resistant to organization.
<ogra> flint_, i'm waiting for the promised test results...
<coarsesalt> They are probably also resistent to a lack of organization
<magnon> flint_: I could tell you the same without ever being on a school board, just having meetings with them ;)
<flint_> Also you average school board member cares not about this issue.  believe me.
<flint_> you need to target that geek in the system.  your inside salesman.
<JaneW> coarsesalt: to be honest there not much in the way of formal support yet, which is why we are leaunching this release quietly
<magnon> JaneW: I'll keep in touch closer to release :)
<JaneW> coarsesalt: we are not trying to convert ever school right now
<coarsesalt> JaneW: that explains a great deal
<JaneW> coarsesalt: however april 2006 is another story ;)
<flint_> ollie, what form do you want them in.  Elkner tests software the way the wright brothers tested airplaines
<JaneW> coarsesalt: we are relying on enthiasts right now to tinker and test and be prepared to fiddle under the hood
<flint_> he flys it till it crashes.  What can i get you for results?
<JaneW> coarsesalt: we have to get it to a point where we don;t expect (or need) that anymore
<ogra> flint_, like mdz described in his mail... we need to find what blocks.... i doubt its a gnome thing as elkner thinks, since it works well with gnome in other environments
<JaneW> flint_: i.e. *analyse*, don;t just be a cowboy ;)
<flint_> how many terminals simultaneously?  How many processes? 
<coarsesalt> JaneW: yes. that explains the gap in usability between the ubuntu project and what i saw on my installs... that information is what i needed.
<ogra> flint_, yes, and the exact spec of the HW and the setup...
<ogra> flint_, also looking at the ressources if the problem occurs (or short before it does)
<coarsesalt> JaneW: that also gives me enough time to learn how to use it ;)
<flint_> I do like cowboys, (not george who is a wantobe from connecticut) 
<JaneW> flint_: don;t even get me started on rat boy!
<coarsesalt> oh. rat boy. i like that.
<JaneW> http://www.selltheranch.com/
<flint_> ollie you are exactly right.  Note that I have been trying to get elkner to write a systems description for the last 3 years...
<JaneW> oh wait, I wanted to stay on topic ... ;)
<flint_> i prefered "evil flint" :^)
<JaneW> lol
<flint_> Note jane I am moving to vermont, and will be there by next month (near border)
<JaneW> cool
<coarsesalt> So, if i start people down the open-office, audacity, shoutcast, firefox transition this year and tell them that they'll be an OS next school year...
<JaneW> I hear it is noce there
<JaneW> nice even
<jsgotangco> err can i update?
<JaneW> coarsesalt: sure
<flint_> we need two things, a test device, and a support organization.
<JaneW> coarsesalt: you could even give then ubuntu
<ogra> jsgotangco, if JaneW releases me ... :)
<JaneW> ogra: you done?
<jsgotangco> oh i thought it was done
<flint_> btw Elkner says he really likes the current Edubuntu distribution.
* jsgotangco goes back
<JaneW> ogra: so we need to soeak to mdz about staggered milestones, and the LTSP update...
<ogra> JaneW, anything missing ? 
<JaneW> what elese
<ogra> the rest will fall in place alone afer preview....
<flint_> he indicated that he has had to tune every distro including the k12 stuff he started with
<ogra> (i.e. moving the artwork package on the CD)
<JaneW> ok.
<ogra> its all prepared, i just dont want to risk the working CD now...
<JaneW>  sudo /etc/init.d/dhcp3-server restart ?
<magnon> flint_: support organisations for what? (sorry, jumped out of the convo for a little bit)
<flint_> the CD works.  
<ogra> JaneW, thats waiting for the mdz patch 
<JaneW> ogra: he is going to do it? (or has he already?)
<ogra> JaneW, and ltsp-build-client will be done from the installer .... i just finished the package that does it...
<ogra> JaneW, he had no time to review m patch yet he said
<ogra> my even
<flint_> magnon, elkner is a very savvy cat.  He is having issues.  Imagine how your average kindergarten teacher will react.  again it is no longer about geeks in basements...
<ogra> flint_, yes, but we need more data to analyse his prob....
<magnon> flint_: my job is providing that kind of help already ;)
<ogra> "everything stops working" is n not a good base to track a issue
<flint_> I know, I got to deliver...
<JaneW> ok lets give jsgotangco a chance before he needs to go...
<ogra> yup
<JaneW> jsgotangco: ?
<magnon> as long as you can ssh in, ltsp provides some nice methods to debug clients
<jsgotangco> ah
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> i was a bit sleepy
<jsgotangco> heh
<magnon> pardon
<jsgotangco> well ok rather
<jsgotangco> i got to finish about edubuntu and its already up for review
<jsgotangco> i got it to register in scrollkeeper last night
<jsgotangco> it was a pain
<jsgotangco> to do it in xml
<flint_> Chris, how do I get this information?
<jsgotangco> i was thinking
<jsgotangco> maybe its easier to just ship this in html
<magnon> (what Chris?)
<jsgotangco> along with the relasenotes and cookbook
<flint_> BTW in the brave new world of the security geek, ssh is not always an option.  it is not in APS
<ogra> jsgotangco, we areopen for everything :)
<flint_> Christoffer Olsen is how you came up in the roster... sorry!
<jsgotangco> okay i'll just make sure the preview is in doc.ubuntu.com by tommorow so that it can be up for review
<JaneW> jsgotangco: I think it;s up to you...
<ogra> oki
<JaneW> you know the rles and pros and cons in the doc world...
<magnon> flint_: you never know ;) I cant remember exactly how, but each client runs a little daemon that you can contact
<jsgotangco> ok i'll let ogra package it to make sure i don't break anything again
<JaneW> jsgotangco: heh
<magnon> it should provide logs and the like
<ogra> jsgotangco, ok
<JaneW> jsgotangco: we trust you
<magnon> although I never had to use it
<ogra> jsgotangco, the edubuntu packages will only break edubuntu ;)
<jsgotangco> but they're not main packages
<magnon> flint_: whats APS?
<ogra> jsgotangco, so you wont have to fear the wrath of mdz ;)
<flint_> APS = Arlington (virginia us) Public Schools
<magnon> Aha
<jsgotangco> should be done by this weekend, i just want to know the status of jonathan's trouble shooting guide
<magnon> SSH can be tricked through though
<flint_> what patch is mdz inflicting on us?
<magnon> :)
<magnon> if you're not on-site and provide support, I would say you have to demand ssh access or another form of terminal access.
<JaneW> flint_: not  Arlington Public Elite Schools ..?
<magnon> be it through VPN
<JaneW> flint_:  APES
<JaneW> highvoltage: PING
<magnon> Arlington Public Edubuntu Schools :)
<ogra> flint_, a patch to restart the dhcp server at the end of the install, so you dont ave to do it manually...
<JaneW> lol, magnon touche
<flint_> Jane, I like it! magnon, sadly the edubuntu movement is in no position to demand.  we fight for existance...
<jsgotangco> basically, if we have a troubleshooting guide, we have a cookbook by release
<magnon> flint_: "I save you money, you give me access, kapiche?"
<JaneW> highvoltage: PING PING PING
<magnon> that's regularily the case :)
<JaneW> jsgotangco: you sent JOnatha a mail about that?
<jsgotangco> i haven't maybe later
<magnon> no point in pushing edubuntu to someone who aren't enthusiastic about it... until it has some market share and reports/reviews/etc.
<ogra> yup
<jsgotangco> we should be having some sort of release notes by preview
<jsgotangco> even a basic paragraph would do
<flint_> oddly enough the "I save you money, you give me access" cuts no ice in micro$oft land...
<flint_> jane, where the heck is Jonathan?
<jsgotangco> other than that we're in for PROFIT
<coarsesalt> flint_ seems the opposite actually, you have to charge more money to get more access
<magnon> flint_: if I run a test, I would be on-site most of the time. If I have a completely converted network, I would have to demand certain things from the infrastructure of it
<coarsesalt> flint_ that's my kind of economy
<magnon> if I cant get it, it makes the quality of my service go down
<ogra> jsgotangco, yay
<magnon> = no joy
<magnon> because M$ land people always blame YOU when things go wrong even though you said it would at some point :P
<flint_> the angle I would like to see is diagnostics that push rather than techies that pull.
<JaneW> flint_: dunno where highvoltage is, but he does have a day job...
<jsgotangco> maybe he's with hilton somewhere
<magnon> A goal for the future would be a certain "marketplace" for Edubuntu as well
<magnon> methinks.
<ogra> yup
<jsgotangco> anyways, if there are any more questions, please shoot
<jsgotangco> (don't ask about translations atm i'm just too loaded)
<flint_> at the end of the day it becomes the provence of the techie, and that is a valuable resource.
<magnon> flint_: also, my belief is that normal school staff are utterly and totally incompetent to run an LTSP network without outside support
<jsgotangco> any questions?
<magnon> jsgotangco: no questions, you're doing great :)
<jsgotangco> ok i guess that's the update for the edubuntu doc team
<magnon> thanks
<magnon> ;)
<jsgotangco> hmm btw
<jsgotangco> the FF frontpage hmmm
<jsgotangco> i gotta think about that after
<flint_> magnon This is my feeling as well.  The ticket with techies is that  they are a very perisable comidity.  If you are not prepared to serve them up when and where they are needed the customer fails to see the value.  There is some staging that must be done
<JaneW> jsgotangco: thanks for the update
<ogra> jsgotangco, i'll make one, i want links to all locally installed servers ....
<ogra> i.e. to "use the local schooltool, klick here"
<jsgotangco> okay
<jsgotangco> klick?
<jsgotangco> kde?
<jsgotangco> heh
<magnon> ogra: shouldnt the homepage be on the proxy server, perhaps?
<JaneW> brb
<jsgotangco> we have no proxy server
<ogra> magnon, there is no proxy in this release...
<magnon> if that design is somewhat required some time
<ogra> not by default
<magnon> completely aware of that
<ogra> and i refuse to change firefox :) so we need to exchange the default page instead...
<flint_> there should be an inside and an outside page...
<ogra> (thats what edubuntu-artwork currently does)
<jsgotangco> alright i going to rash then
<jsgotangco> crash
<magnon> bye :)
<magnon> flint_: why an outside at all?
<ogra> flint_, firefox only has one homepage
<magnon> im pretty sure the school wouldnt host their homepage on the edubuntu server ;p
<ogra> flint_, it will have links to internal ressources as well as to external ones.... i'll cut it in sections
<magnon> (you never know)
<flint_> kind of like the bulliten board the teacher dresses
<magnon> edubuntu cant do everything ;)
<ogra> flint_, just click on home in the ubuntu firefox.... its what i'm talking about ...
<flint_> also if you have an outside, parents get involved.  School adminstrations cannot resist parents.
<flint_> ollie gotcha, think of that as the inside page.
<magnon> me and my colleague are working on a school-related CMSy/management thing that will eventually be GPLed
<ogra> yup... but with links to www.edubuntu.org and ubuntu.com
<magnon> maybe it could be of usage
<magnon> some time.
<ogra> flint_, do you know if elkner tested my ldm fixes i sent him the link for ? 
<flint_> the cool thing about your approach is ollie is that you do not have to muck with mozilla.  I like it.
<ogra> (themeable login etc=
<ogra> )
<flint_> i will check.  the sombitch is actually teaching this morning...
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/edubuntu/
<ogra> there are instructions in the .txt file
<ogra> since you both moaned about a graphical/themeable login... ;)
<magnon> flint_: with parent involvment, you mean like principal uploading an ical to some web thing that makes a nicely formatted parent readable clanedar out of it, for instance?
<flint_> I will get this to him soonest.
<flint_> thats the technical thing.  The political thing is the thing of great power.
<flint_> thanks for the link ollie.
<ogra> :)
<JaneW> flint_: http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/edubuntu/
<magnon> halfways afk, making some dinner
<JaneW> flint_: if you are creative add some wall papers etc
<ogra> magnon, dinner ? now ? 
<magnon> ogra: I was up at 4 :)
<ogra> phew
<flint_> these are nice!  excellent stuff jane.  This is for the next release or the current?
<ogra> thats when i go to bed :)
<ogra> flint_, ill see how many i can add...
<JaneW> flint_: I belive most will be in the current, ogra confirm please?
<ogra> the CD is having lots of space issues already
<magnon> and martial arts at 6:30.. cant be hungry or have lots of food in my belly then :)
<flint_> I like green, keep in mind that teacher options will be important.  Let them put their own stuff in is the ticket.
<ogra> JaneW, we are tight on space.... so i peobably have to select...
<ogra> JaneW, but thats something to sort if we *can* break the CD again (after preview)
<flint_> go with small but add a text file telling installers how to put their own stuff in the login
<JaneW> flint_: they are free to u/l to the site and share their artistry...
<flint_> ollie just add one to make the login screen look less like the eye from "lord of the rings"
<ogra> flint_, the raphical login stuf isnt agrred by mdz yet.. i doubt he had time to look at it
<ogra> huh ? 
<flint_> he really wants to put this graphical login off till the next release.
<ogra> no idea... 
<ogra> he didnt talk to me about it...
<JaneW> flint_: chnaging the wall paper is very trival (as easy if not more so than in windows)
<ogra> i sent him the link to it end of august
<flint_> i'll grant yo he is an ornery cuss, but he is pretty smart.
<highvoltage> JaneW: pong
<ogra> JaneW, you are talking about different things, flint_ means the login screen...
<highvoltage> JaneW: pong pong pong
<flint_> Jane changing the login screen wallpaper is what we need to do.  this is hard.
<magnon> highvoltage: slowpoke!
<highvoltage> is there a meeting?
<magnon> yes
<ogra> highvoltage, nearly done
<flint_> ah Johnathan!
<highvoltage> flint_: without an "h" before the first "n"
<flint_> (never could spell your first name right...)
<highvoltage> flint_: it's Jonathan or jono or highvoltage :)
<JaneW> ogra: oic
<flint_> jonathan, where is your buddy hilton?
<highvoltage> ok. anything i can do ya for? i'm a bit distracted here!
<ogra> JaneW, but that would require mdz to agree to my patches from august, which he didnt react on yet
<highvoltage> flint_: hilton is fine. he's going to another province next week to spread the word!
<JaneW> highvoltage: just call flint Pauhl, he;ll catch on...
<flint_> jonathan what kind of trouble are you getting into.  I got some mail from an IBM'er and sent it to him.
<flint_> pawl, pale...
<JaneW> flint_: that's an SA CSI exercise
<highvoltage> flint_: all kinds, i can talk later
<flint_> I want to thank jane for helping me stir up the pot at IBM....
<highvoltage> flint_: i'll be in #edubuntu tonight, pop in!
<flint_> we need to get into their knickers.  They sell big intel based servers...
* highvoltage needs to go, i'm keeping ppl waiting!
<highvoltage> bbl
<JaneW> flint_: I am not sure thay guy wants to include the whole north ameriacn mailing list :P
<flint_> talk later then bye jonathan
<JaneW> flint_: : he asked for the list to be whittled
<ogra> JaneW, tell him it was just a mailclient stresstest ;)
<flint_> jane he has a very clear political agenda tha involves SA technology leadership within IBM.
<flint_> jane we need to conspire offline, we could easily frighten the techies...
<flint_> ...or it could just be nothing...ya never know.
<JaneW> ok
<flint_> what I get out of this is that I need to get data from elkner to ollie.  did i get the picture?
<ogra> yup
<ogra> and probably CC mdz :)
<ogra> since he gave the advise how to do it 
<JaneW> yes please
<flint_> ok then.  and carbon the dreaded zimmerman. :^)
<JaneW> flint_: no carbon required, just electrons
<JaneW> :P
<ogra> JaneW, 15:03 ?
<ogra> do we close the meeting ? 
<JaneW> yes I'd better off
<flint_> jane, you get the "lotr" login screen issue?
<JaneW> anyone want to volunteer to put a meeting summary up?
<JaneW> I am not keeping up with that
<ogra> flint_, what is the lotr issue ? 
<ogra> JaneW, i'll try
<JaneW> I can try later, but I'll be out for a bit
<JaneW> ogra: pref not you....
<ogra> heh...
<JaneW> I'll do it later rather
<JaneW> thanks for the offer
<JaneW> but I;d rather make more efficient use of your time
<JaneW> I'm off to Mark's old school
<flint_> the lotr login issue is that the current login screen is black with a big white login dialog box and nothing else
<JaneW> ogra: can that be changed?
<ogra> JaneW, with my patches to ltsp from august....
<ogra> mdz hasnt reviewed them yet
<JaneW> ogra: ok, I'll 'badger' him again
<JaneW> although I suspect he is part of a gorwing list of ppl who have grown to ignore my nagging...
<ogra> JaneW, but i'd like to have some user feedback too... thats why i gave out the url to the .tgz file
<flint_> the overall look in a classroom is as if you have several dosen eyes of sauron staring at you.
<flint_> thus for lack of a better term i call this the lotr login screen, and it is a bug.
<ogra> flint_, try my tgz, follow the install instructions... and you have a gdm-ish looking login screen thats fully themeable
<flint_> put a brackground on it (any background) and you got a fix...
<flint_> you got it my man ollie... death to sauron!
<ogra> heh
<flint_> btw jane I listen to your nagging... :^)
<JaneW> flint_: thanks :)
<JaneW> bye
<flint_> ok we all got things to do.  I am out of here!
<flint_> thanks to everyone.
<ogra> bye
<flint_> bye
<pef> hi
<\sh> hi pef
<ajmitch> everyone ready for the meeting then?
<\sh> lets w8 those 12 mins
* ajmitch was planning to
<ajmitch> ok, 2 minutes
<ajmitch> hopefully people are alive
<sistpoty> yep ;)
* ogra will be some mins late...
<\sh> Day changed to 08 Sep 2005
<ajmitch> ogra: that's ok, the inmates can run the meeting :)
<\sh> if nobody complains, then I will drink a beer during meeting
<slomo> \sh: you're allowed when you give me one too ;)
<\sh> slomo: hepp
<sistpoty> . \sh prost! (got one open already)
<\sh> sistpoty: cheers dude :)
* ajmitch is beerless
<\sh> ajmitch: u said 10am?
<ajmitch> yes
<\sh> too late for a beer ,-)
<sistpoty> hehe
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-09-13
<ajmitch> never too late
<pef> midnight here :)
<ogra> yup, kets start
<ogra> lets even
<\sh> ok..welcome gents
<ogra> or cats ?
<\sh> who wants to host?
<ogra> ajmitch, wants to give a status about transitions it seems
<ogra> :)
* ajmitch wants to ask, not to give
<ogra> hehe
* ajmitch will be in & out during this meeting, sadly
<ogra> thats not written there :)
<ajmitch> due to inconvenient meeting time :)
<\sh> well...guys lets get a move on ;)
<ogra> ok, where are we 
<ogra> transition wise 
<dholbach> hi
<\sh> As I said http://cerberus.0c3.net/~adconrad/frozenapps.txt this is the list of the last pieces of cxx trans
<ogra> so cxx list has still a lot empty spots it seems
<\sh> a lot?
<\sh> 5
<dholbach> a lot?
<ajmitch> libcrypto++ was something I looked it 
<dholbach> i don't consider this to be much
<ogra> on the wiki it has a lot
<ajmitch> it was *evil*
<dholbach> ogra: a lot pieces that WERE transitioned ;)
<\sh> aehm....
<ogra> so we should wipe the wiki, there is more then 5 empty rows
<\sh> ogra: many of the gaps are kde stuff or libs which doesn't have to be
<ajmitch> libcrypto++ can be synced from sid
<dholbach> ogra: there are apps which just had to be rebuilt - those didnt have a note attached
<dholbach> ajmitch: super
<ajmitch> I'll write a nice email to elmo now
<dholbach> the slang2 transition just links to the debian wiki site - i'm not quite sure how the status is around here
<slomo> dholbach: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUSlang2Transition
<ajmitch> the main thing we want is apps installable & usable
<bddebian> Hey folks, sorry I'm late
<slomo> dholbach: "done" except packages that need someone who has slang knowledge
<ajmitch> lib transitions are just a required part of that
<ajmitch> yay!! bddebian!
<ogra> mplayer-k6 and noatun-plugins are shown as rdepends for slang1 still
<dholbach> slomo: cool
<ajmitch> bddebian: just in time to be volunteered for some work
<slomo> ogra: mplayer-k6 doesn't exist anymore...
<ogra> slomo, yup
<bddebian> Uh oh, gotta run, the kids are screaming.. ;-)
<slomo> ogra: i told elmo to remove it from the archives but he ignores me ;)
<dholbach> slomo: a mail?
<ogra> slomo, mail him
<dholbach> UniverseUnmetDeps are not actually a transition, but they require some hands on them
<slomo> ogra: i mailed him... also for some other stuff in that but i didn't get a answer yet... was 2 weeks ago
<\sh> noatun-plugins is just a rebuild 
<\sh> IMHO
<dholbach> i guess after preview we'll get a full test rebuild of the archive and know a lot more, aggregated on one site
<sistpoty> ghc6: still not rebuilt, so on hold
<ogra> slomo, mail again ?
<\sh> dholbach: speaking of unmet deps
<ajmitch> sistpoty: rebuilt, but haddock FTBFS
<ajmitch> sistpoty: not rebuilt in archive though
<sistpoty> ajmitch: it is already?
<sistpoty> ah, ok :)
<slomo> ogra: sure... i've forgotten about slang transition until daniel mentioned it some minutes ago :)
<\sh> I think I will raise my agenda point a bit higher
<sistpoty> ajmitch: i saw a new haddock upload today
<ajmitch> deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/ghc6 /
<sistpoty> :)
<ogra> slomo, just poke elmo again if you dont get an answer within a week
<slomo> ogra: will do
<ogra> unmet deps is the normal motu work....
<\sh> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTUGLUTransition
<ogra> i dont think we need to discuss it here
<\sh> well we have to discuss 
<ogra> \sh, unmet deps should be as empty as possible... there is nothing to discuss
<bddebian> heh
<\sh> yes...we have some packages with missing install-deps
<ogra> \sh, if there is a license issue etc that prevent the deps from entering, just ignore them
<\sh> like  kwiki, chinput,
<ogra> so we still have a source package if users want to compile them on teir own
<dholbach> it's like libdvdcss
<dholbach> (although that's a  enhances:  )
<\sh> but some are not even in debian
<\sh> kwiki -> libkwiki-perl -> not in debian
<ogra> probably from dholbach's lats apt-get.org import in hoary
<ogra> last indeed
<bddebian> hehe
<dholbach> ogra: don't think so
<ogra> hmm
<dholbach> Maintainer: Nick Phillips <nwp@debian.org>
<dholbach> but nevermind
<ajmitch> heh, nwp
* ajmitch wonders if he still lives in dunedin.. :)
<ogra> Origin: Debian/unstable
<ogra> seems like a debian package
<dholbach> those rare occasions where we have non-free depends we should just ignore them
<\sh> which one?
<ogra> it enetred through a autosync
<dholbach> it was the same for j2re1.3 in debian for ages
<dholbach> they just couldnt ship it
<ogra> but we have 1.4  now;)
<dholbach> well ...
<\sh> ok we forget about them? or should we put some on morgue?
<dholbach> just ignore those rare cases
<ajmitch> ignore
<ajmitch> we can't do everything
<ogra> yup
<\sh> ok
<dholbach> only on morgue if something is obviously wrong and cant be fixed
<bddebian> ajmitch: Sure YOU can ;-)
<ajmitch> kwiki has RC bug in debian for this reason
<ajmitch> bddebian: nopoe
<dholbach> shall we proceed? or do we have transition items we need to discuss?
<dholbach> ...other transition items...
<\sh> i think we quite good in time 
<\sh> so lets move
<ajmitch> I think we're ok now..
<ajmitch> ah, malone policies...
<dholbach> super
<bddebian> yeah
* sistpoty hides
<ajmitch> you may have seen bddebian attacking malone 
<ogra> i think they a quite clear ?
<ogra> (the statuses)
<ajmitch> ogra: the page is what we wrote up after I put it on the agenda
<ajmitch> things like leaving bugs assigned to MOTU, status->accepted when you're working on it
<ogra> ajmitch, i didnt look at the page :)
<ajmitch> I was looking for some suggestions and/or consensus on those things
<ajmitch> ogra: there's still time :)
<bddebian> ajmitch: Should they stay assigned to MOTU or assign them to ourselves?
<ajmitch> bddebian: assign to MOTU, imho
<ogra> ajmitch, but its nice :)
<bddebian> ajmitch: I agree, just checking :-)
<dholbach> yep, because we get the mails that way
<ajmitch> dholbach: that's my sole reason
<ajmitch> currently the watch subscription is next to useless
<bddebian> You can add yourself as CC right?
<ajmitch> so maybe CC: is useful
<ogra> if you grab a bug you can reassign to you if you want to make sure nobody else does duplicate work
<ajmitch> ogra: I suggested marking it as Accepted & writing in something in the status field
<ajmitch> or a comment
<ajmitch> but as you're still BugMaster.. :)
<ogra> i'm fine with everything...
<sistpoty> perhaps some words about non-universe bugs in malone?
<ogra> and i dont know who gave me the bugmaster title :)
<bddebian> sistpoty: Aye
<ajmitch> ogra: we did
<ogra> heh
<ajmitch> and you became the bugzilla man
<ogra> unintentional
<ogra> :)
<bddebian> traitor ;-)
<sistpoty> ok, about non-universe bugs: bddebian and me had the idea to reject malone-bugs that are non-universe
<ogra> bddebian, want the hob ? 
<\sh> ok..I think this is settled..ajmitchs notes are quite good
<ajmitch> \sh: not just mine, mainly bmonty's
<dholbach> sistpoty: nope... i don't think that's a good thing
<ogra> sistpoty, yup, but with a nice commentz
<bddebian> hehe
<\sh> sistpoty: yeah...bugzilla bugs != universe bugs are handled the same
<dholbach> sistpoty: main will move to malone soon too
<ogra> dholbach, why ? they are reported wrong
<sistpoty> yep, that's what we found out later ;)
<ajmitch> ogra: then they'd need to be filed in bugzilla
<ajmitch> at least until the big transition
<\sh> dholbach: I think we should have this split until they're importing all the stuff into malone
<ogra> ajmitch, yes, so add a comment that tells the reporter to report them in the right place
<dholbach> shushing the users from one place to another isn't very nice
<sistpoty> so, what should the policy be? file in bugzilla and refer to in malone?
<dholbach> \sh: there will be no import - at least that's what i heard
<ogra> dholbach, nobody looks in malone for main bugs, they get losts
<dholbach> ogra: the 'gnome' team's don't get lost
<bddebian> I was copying them to bugzilla but not sure that is right either
<\sh> dholbach: there must be one ;) 
<ogra> so its better imho to notify the reporter
* ajmitch just doesn't want to lose potentially important bugs
<dholbach> \sh: there will be one
<ogra> dholbach, there are a lot of non gnome main bugs
<\sh> or we're importing those "wrong place" bugs into bugzilla
<dholbach> ogra: of course
<ogra> and its odd to lose them
<dholbach> but just closing/rejecting seems wrong to me :)
<ogra> so until malone is for main too, i'd propose to close them with a predefined note
<\sh> dholbach: mdz is doing it as well with a comment: use malone on bugzilla
<bddebian> Then go kick the main folks to look at them dholbach ;-)
<dholbach> \sh: because bugzilla was never meant to track universe bugs
<ogra> bddebian, they will eventually... but the current bugs will be lost then...
<dholbach> \sh: but for malone it's a different case
<\sh> dholbach: yes right...so another transition ;)
<\sh> hmm..I just broke my 300 watt boxes
<ajmitch> ok..
<\sh> so whats best?
<ajmitch> any agreement here? :)
<ogra> vote ? 
<ogra> who is for closing with nice comment ? 
<ogra> +
<ogra> ok, i'm the only one... 
<\sh> +1 from me...and for important bugs I think we can handle a copy into bugzilla as well
<sistpoty> hm... there was s.th. said on sep 5 in -motu... i just try to find it in the logs
<dholbach> notifying a probable fixer seems best to me - like a possible kubuntu team for kde bugs
<bddebian> Can someone define "soon" for moving main to malone?
<ogra> bddebian, probably breezy release time
<ogra> or short after
<bddebian> Hmm
<\sh> ok..we're going to preview time, so no bug should be lost, right?
<ogra> yup
<bddebian> BTW, what about Hoary bugs, main or not?
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> its a bit odd, i'd aks mdz, but he's building the preview next door
<dholbach> we could take that to ubuntu-devel@
<bddebian> If we need visibility of bugs prior to breezy release, I'd say move them to bugzilla and reject with comment pointing to bugzilla bug#
<ajmitch> dholbach: good idea
<\sh> 2 situations: 1. close the bug with commment + inserting bugtext etc. into bugzilla, or 2. creating a new bug in bugzilla and giving a link into malone to ubuntu bugzilla?
<ogra> thats quite time consuming... to fiddle with two slow bugtrackers
<\sh> ogra: bugzilla is quite fast regarding malone ,-)
<ajmitch> ogra: yes, and there are a *lot* of bugs
<dholbach> i think we should take the list of arguments to the mailing list and hear some other opinions - since it's them that receive those bug reports in the end
<ogra> i would assume if the reporter thinks the bug is valuable, he/she will re-report it in bugzilla him/herself
<\sh> ogra: good point
<dholbach> but that's annoying
<ogra> as well as its for bug triage if you have to copy all the bugs
<dholbach> to figure out the internal processes of a distro to report a bug
<dholbach> hrm
<ogra> dholbach, they are told you in th comment... 
<ogra> including a link to bugzilla
<sistpoty> imo dholbach is right, if joe user reports a bug, he might be scared if he has to wonder about where he files bugs for main, universe... 
<ogra> lest just set up a copy paste text with the right link
<dholbach> who is for deferral and discussion on the mailing list?
<dholbach> since it not just affects us
<bddebian> probabably makes sense + from me
<ajmitch> makes sense
<ajmitch> I'd say that most of these main bugs are old/duplicates of ones in bugzilla
<dholbach> and it'd raise more attention - by bug squashers, if we have it on the list ;)
<ajmitch> yep
<bddebian> I was searching bugzilla before copying them but if they were closed I wouldn't have seen it. :-(
<\sh> anyways..we're close to main malone takeover ,-)
<\sh> bddebian: advance search ;)
<ajmitch> \sh: close, but malone still needs a lot of love
<dholbach> shall we move on?
<ajmitch> yes
<ogra> ajmitch, i'm pretty sure sabdfl will move main to malone at the conference or shortly after
<bddebian> \sh: :-)
<\sh> ajmitch: agreed :) I like bugzilla as well ;) because everybody is using it....until final notice ;)
<dholbach> ok
<ajmitch> ogra: bradb said that he has most of november for working on searching
<ogra> ajmitch, yup...
<dholbach> next item on the agenda was?
<ogra> bugday
<ajmitch> more malone love!
<\sh>  Malone Bug Love Day - shall we dedicate some time to bug triage & fixing before release? (AndrewMitchell)
<bddebian> wheee
<dholbach> ahhhh good one
<ogra> probably someone would like to take over the job from me
* ajmitch seems to have most of the agenda items for this meeting
<ogra> my bugday work fell over the last weeks due to edubuntu
<bddebian> ajmitch: That's because you ROCK d00d :-)
<ajmitch> ogra: some of us have started on malone triage & fixing
<\sh> ogra: Ithink we need more PR ,-)
<ajmitch> ogra: I've closed a few bugs recently, but a concerted effort to squash bugs could be good :)
<dholbach> we should get going with it - after preview release this might be interesting to get involved there
<bddebian> ajmitch: Agreed.  I was just glancing over ones I thought could be easily fixed or rejected
<ogra> ajmitch, i'm not talking about common triage
<ajmitch> many thanks to dholbach for getting universe-bugs setup
<ogra> i was talking about weekly bugdays
<ajmitch> ogra: yep
<ajmitch> #ubuntu-bugs is still open for that
<ogra> yup
* bddebian points at ajmitch 
<ajmitch> do we want to schedule something on the calendar?
<ogra> but there is not much going on
<ajmitch> ogra: no, dilys seems dead
<ajmitch> but it's a good place for discussion of bugs
<\sh> ogra: it must be a real community event
<ogra> ajmitch, died today killed by a netsplit
<ajmitch> someone needs to be BugMaster & pimp the bug day ;)
<\sh> bddebian you have a blog?
<ogra> \sh, thats what we wanted the bugdays to be
<bddebian> \sh: Nah, my life is too boring I told ya :-)
<\sh> ogra: yeah, but only the old farts are waiting ,-)
<ogra> ajmitch, exactly...
<ajmitch> ogra: dilys no longer reports new bugs in channel
<ajmitch> who wants to be BugMaster? :)
<\sh> bddebian: ok...you are the bugmaster...u spammed my inbox so you have to be punished ,->
<dholbach> the team
<ogra> ajmitch, i can make the announcements, but it costs me the whole workday to care for all the stuff
<bddebian> Doh
<ajmitch> ogra: ok, so we can do it - you need to get edubuntu perfect by release :)
<bddebian> What's involved.  I'd be happy to do it but I have to watch my time.
<ogra> ajmitch, it would already be helpful if people would hang out in #ubuntu-bugs and answer newbie bugfixer questions etc
<ajmitch> schedule a day, people meetup in #ubuntu-bugs, advertise it
<ajmitch> ogra: nobody really asks in there yet
* ajmitch is constantly lurking there
<ogra> ajmitch, it happened when i announced the bugdays regulary
<ajmitch> ogra: ok
<ogra> a while ago
<ajmitch> 1 week from now?
<dholbach> shall we collect ideas on a wikipage for it?
<ogra> dholbach, we have one ;)
<bddebian> ajmitch: Is that soon enough? :-)
<ajmitch> dholbach: if you want, but I think it needs to be soon
<ajmitch> bddebian: probably not
<dholbach> oh ok
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<\sh> ogra: do we get some marketing things? I think we have to "kder" those guys
* ajmitch would like it to be on a weekend,since we're mostly volunteers here :)
<pef> bye !
<ogra> at the bottom waits a bugday section for input since months
<dholbach> \sh: lure :)
<bddebian> Later pef
<slomo> ajmitch++
<\sh> dholbach: lure? sure? ,-)
<ogra> \sh, kiko promised some to me to give away...
<dholbach> slomo++
<ajmitch> ogra: free stuff? :)
<ogra> overnext saturday ? 
<ajmitch> ogra: ok
<bddebian> works for me but weekends are tough for me (kids)
<ajmitch> date?
<ajmitch> bddebian: that's ok
<ogra> ajmitch, free stuff ??
<ajmitch> bddebian: it's mainly getting people in & filing bugs
<ajmitch> we can clean up later
<dholbach> saturday
<bddebian> OK
<ajmitch> ogra: you said stuff to give away ;)
<slomo> dholbach: why? i haven't said something usefu, i'm just for ajmitch's comment that it has to be on a weekend ;)
<dholbach> slomo: :)
<\sh> bddebian: you're such a funny man :) would you like to heat up the masses? :=
<ogra> ajmitch, merchandise stuff for best bugfixer etc
<bddebian> :-)
<\sh> bddebian: I mean what I say...we need someone who is heating up 
<ogra> slomo, dholbach too :)
<bddebian> \sh: I try but I tend to annoy more than I make laugh :-)
<ajmitch> ogra: are we in the running for that? ;)
<ogra> ajmitch, i can talk to kiko
<bddebian> Based on karma? :-)
<\sh> bddebian: ask the others..;)
<ajmitch> bddebian: there are people with >200K karma :)
<bddebian> Doh, I gotta get moving then :-)
<dholbach> ok... how do we go from here?
<ajmitch> dholbach: fix stuff..
<bddebian> ooh, I have 100 now
<bddebian> Priorities?
<ajmitch> dholbach: I'm surprised you didn't put apt-get.org on the agenda?
<dholbach> announce it? and just go?
<bddebian> transitions->unmetdeps->bugs or different?
<ajmitch> dholbach: you still want people to get in & review stuff?
<bddebian> ajmitch: Heh
<ogra> dholbach, yes
<ajmitch> dholbach: yes, please
<dholbach> ajmitch: my head was spinning all day
<ogra> we should probably hint to both, #ubuntuuuuuuuuuuuuu-mot and #ubuntu-bugs
<ogra> oops... my keyboard
<bddebian> heh
<slomo> lol
<bddebian> ogra: It's not a Dell is it?
<ogra> ubuntu-motu and ubuntu-bugs
<ajmitch> ok
<ogra> bddebian, acer
<bddebian> ah
<ajmitch> ogra: 10th or 17th?
<\sh> lets give it a try
<ogra> 17th
<dholbach> 17th
<ajmitch> k
<dholbach> super
<ogra> :)
<dholbach> woohoo! :)
<ogra> consensus, cool :)
<ajmitch> we covered \sh's topic
<ajmitch> meeting time!
<ogra> yup
<\sh> yeah
* ajmitch thinks +- 12 hours
<ogra> dholbach, make a offer, your topic
<dholbach> a bit earlier than 24:00 in my timezone would be nice :)
<ogra> 12:00 in your TZ ? :)
<dholbach> dunno how fine that is for other folks
<\sh> lunchtime during office days ;)
<dholbach> 12:00 would be 10:00 utc
<ogra> its + or - 12h
<\sh> what about 12:00 UTC?
<ajmitch> meeting started during work hours for me today
<ogra> 12:00 UTC ?
<ajmitch> 12:00 UTC is midnight, fine by me
<\sh> ajmitch: what is 12:00 UTC?
<ajmitch> midnight here.. :)
<dholbach> hehe... :)
* ajmitch is UTC+12
<ogra> so we flip the TZ basically :)
<\sh> ogra: it's 14:00 gmt+2
<ajmitch> at least for a few more weeks
<ogra> \sh, i know
<\sh> we can do it in switch mode
<dholbach> ok 10 utc? 12 utc?
<ajmitch> ok, I switch to UTC+13 on 1st sunday of oct :)
<\sh> 12:00 utc is fine
<ogra> every second meeting 12 / 22 UTC ?
<dholbach> 22nd september, 12 utc?
<\sh> something like this
<ajmitch> ogra: ok, meetings each 2 weeks still?
<ogra> do we need each 2 weeks ? 
<ajmitch> not really
<ogra> recently we always had agenda items, so i guess yes
<ajmitch> as we'd end up with a meeting on release day
<\sh> 4 weeks is enough
<ogra> ajmitch, we can move a day
<\sh> and if it's really important ... adhoc ;)
<ogra> vote ?
<dholbach> 2 weeks - just this time
<dholbach> we're short before release
<bddebian> Aye
<ajmitch> 2 weeks
<ogra> yup
<dholbach> we can judge by the agenda
<ajmitch> we need to get more in before the release
<dholbach> so 22nd september, 12 utc?
<ogra> yup
<ajmitch> everyone has to pull at *least* 5 hours/day on ubuntu from now, ok? ;)
<ajmitch> dholbach: fine by me
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:dholbach] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 6 Sep 20:00 UTC: Tech Board | Sept 7 12:00 UTC : Edubuntu Update Meeting | 9 Sep 14:00 UTC: Doc Team | 12 Sep 19:00 UTC:  Loco Teams Meeting | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 22 Sep 12:00 UTC: MOTU
<bddebian> ajmitch: #ubuntu? ;-)
<ogra> ajmitch, <tired>ha ha ha</tired>
<ajmitch> bddebian: no, MOTU fixing
<\sh> ajmitch: so I'm off for the next 3 days? ,-)
<bddebian> hehe
<bddebian> \sh: :-)
<ajmitch> \sh: I said at least :)
<ajmitch> dholbach: you wake care of wiki/Calendar?
* bddebian has totally been slacking on NuN duties :-(
<ajmitch> s/wake/take/
<ajmitch> so that's it - meeting over..
<ajmitch> shall I do the summary this time?
<bddebian> Nobody answered my question about priorities! :-)
<ogra> ajmitch, please :)
<bddebian> ajmitch: Yes, please Mr Agenda :-)
<ajmitch> ok, will do
<ajmitch> almost exactly an hour, well done :)
<\sh> ok
<dholbach> ajmitch: yes
<dholbach> thanks guys
<bddebian> \sh: See, I get no love :-)
<dholbach> you ROCK :)
<ogra> bddebian, fixing... but the less we have left the easier we can look for new stuff again
<\sh> bddebian: you have to write in CAPITALS ;) sometimes ;)
* slomo hugs bddebian :)
<sistpoty> btw. congrats to MOTU bddebian ;)
<bddebian> ogra: fixing == obvious but do any take precedence over the others?
<bddebian> sistpoty: Thanks!
<ogra> yeah, bddebian 
<ogra> bddebian, if we are in shape, play as you like ;) 
<dholbach> good night guys
<bddebian> Later dholbach 
<dholbach> see you
<\sh> g'night dholbach 
<ajmitch> bye dholbach 
<ajmitch> time for me to get back to work, will write up summary this afternoon :)
<ogra> night dholbach 
<dholbach> :)
<bddebian> Thx ajmitch !
<spear> hi
<spear> wrong ubuntu channel
<spear> bye ;)
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-09-14
<jbailey> w/in 32
<jbailey> foo
<ogra> bar ?
* ajmitch nods
<ajmitch> ogra: don't forget baz
<jbailey> Sounds like a great idea
<ogra> heh
<ajmitch> Fri Sep  9 13:35:41 UTC 2005
<ajmitch> oops
<ajmitch> :)
<jbailey> The problem is that my irssi seems to have opened a query window to the channel separate from my channel window.
<ajmitch> how odd
<jbailey> But soon I will be rid of this thing again.
<ajmitch> so meeting is in ~25min
<jbailey> It looks like xmove might have what I want. =)
* ajmitch should go & drown his sorrows instead :)
<jsgotangco> i think i had too much alcohol
<rob^> hmm beer
<jjesse> mmmm beer
<rob^> knocked a few back myself earlier
<jbailey> I haven't.  But it's 10am, and now's probably not the right time to start.
* jbailey looks at the bottle of maple whiskey.
<jbailey> Yeah, still probably better not to. ;)
<ajmitch> sounds tasty though
<rob^> dunno, when I was younger we had a early morning (read 11am) drink as a "hangover cure"
<jsgotangco> alrigntt
<jjesse> jbailey:  mix crown royal and mrs. butterworth
<rob^> shall we get this show on the road?
<jsgotangco> are we starting or are we being overruled atm
<jbailey> overruled how?
<rob^> by what?
<jbailey> Or do you mean by the drinking discussion?.
<rob^> haha
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> alright
<jsgotangco> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingAgenda
<jsgotangco> we have 6 points to discuss
<jsgotangco> hmm
<jsgotangco> make that 5
<rob^> should be fun :)
<rob^> ?
<jsgotangco> who's here
<rob^> which one are we killing?
* jsgotangco is JeromeGotangco
* rob^ RobertStoffers
* jbailey JeffBailey
<jsgotangco> just 3?
<jbailey> mdke: *poke*
<sabdfl> hi all
<ajmitch> hi
<jsgotangco> hi sabdfl
<mdke> mattheweast
* jsgotangco is preparing his pick axe
<rob^> hi sabdfl 
* sabdfl puts on teflon
<jsgotangco> alright seems like a good presence
<rob^> fire away jsgotangco 
<jbailey> Is someone going to post a summary to -devel after?
<jsgotangco> 1. Packaging/Format changes
<rob^> jbailey, might be a good idea
<jsgotangco> jbailey: fire away
<jbailey> Lovely.  It seems that we discovered this morning that the HTML format isn't suitable for the translators.
<jbailey> Luckily for us, the source format, docbook, is.
<jbailey> So the upshot is that we need to go back to that style and tie that into yelp instead.
<jsgotangco> (it always has been)
* jsgotangco dies
<jbailey> Err.
<jbailey> Medical emergency?
<rob^> well I have observed that qanda tags that the faq guide uses now work properly in yelp
<rob^> with out crashing etc either
<jbailey> Cool.
<jsgotangco> rob^: breezy yelp?
<rob^> mdke is now removing the kde profile
<mdke> i'm done
<mdke> *pants*
<jbailey> So, since I'm the uploader I'll work with mdke and get that in as soon as the lockdown is finished.
<rob^> jsgotangco, The FAQ Guide, which is breezy help
<mdke> jbailey, i know nothing about packaging sadly
<jsgotangco> rob^: i mean did you test it in yelp in breezy
<rob^> jsgotangco, yes
<jbailey> mdke: Ah, didn't you do the packaging that I worked from?
<mdke> jbailey, nope sorry
<rob^> jsgotangco, I'm looking at it now
<jbailey> My mistake, I'll look it up.
<jbailey> Packaging is something I do in my sleep, so no big deal.
<jsgotangco> ok so we're going back to docbook...
<mdke> jbailey, but anyone in #ubuntu-docs can help with things
<jbailey> My biggest concern at this point is divergeance between the package and the svn tree, since I still don't have write access.
<jsgotangco> jbailey: i'll give you my account
<mdke> jbailey, perhaps elmo can be poked?
<rob^> mdke, good luck :)
<jbailey> jsgotangco: I really phear that ide.
<jbailey> +a
<jsgotangco> no need to poke i'll just give him my account
<jbailey> It's just *so* the wrong answer.
<jsgotangco> ok
<jsgotangco> the svn tree is sooo unfriendly in packaging
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Are you going to be on again tonight?  I'll try to ask elmo directly online today.
<jsgotangco> its a pain
<rob^> mdke, have you commited?
<jbailey> tonight, meaning your tomorrow morning. =)
<mdke> rob^, yeah
<rob^> k checking now
<jsgotangco> jbailey: i'll be out early for SFD
<jsgotangco> if i get wifi
<jbailey> dict SFD?
<rob^> jsgotangco, same, 8am start
<jsgotangco> ok wait a bit
<jsgotangco> we're going too far
<rob^> ah crap, the Makefile just segfaulted
<Mithrandir> jbailey: software freedom day.
<jsgotangco> so what's the thing with Packaging/Format changes
<jsgotangco> revert to XML again?
<rob^> err
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Well, this is realted in that I want to commit the packaging bits to SVN as we go.
<jbailey> But yes, revert to XML again.
<jbailey> Upload when lockdown is removed.
<sabdfl> a couple of questions
<jsgotangco> oh well
<jsgotangco> sabdfl: shoot
<mdke> sabdfl, on the about-ubuntu doc, see my post in -devel
<jsgotangco> good thing im kinda drunk
<mdke> lol
<sabdfl> so, with xml, do we get the crappy CSS that yelp supports?
<sabdfl> because the docs could look a lot better, and yelp is no help
<jsgotangco> yelp has its own stylesheets yes 
<rob^> hmm mdke looks like your sed regex didn't work as you expected
<rob^> its left heaps of crud in the files
<sabdfl> second. i can't remember. so about the formatting, can we do no better than yelp currently?
<mdke> rob^, no way, i just used gedit's replace
<jsgotangco> hmmmm
<jsgotangco> i've been playing around with yelp lately
<rob^> mdke, its got "<<<<<<< .mine" all through it
<jsgotangco> the stylesheets alone are so slow....
<rob^> and other crud
<jsgotangco> zz
<mdke> rob^, can you give me an example?
<jsgotangco> i've seen docs in breezy yelp that render more than  5 secs.
<jbailey> rob^: Local merge issues?  Try rm'ing the file and svn up'ing?
<jeffsch> if we use xml in yelp, then we use yelp's css
<rob^> ok
<mdke> yeah i think jbailey is right
<jeffsch> the only way around that is html
<mdke> and html breaks translations
<jsgotangco> like i said in my emails ealier, yelp today is slower than ever
<jeffsch> mdke: how?
<rob^> jsgotangco, not for me it isn't
<jeffsch> the po files are created from the xml
<mdke> jeffsch, because they can't get yelp to display the default locale html file 
<mdke> only the english one
<mdke> seb128 can explain better
<jsgotangco> rob^: strange i have 1gb of ram
<rob^> I have 512 and several things including ff open
<mdke> jeffsch, yeah it's not the po files, but the final html files that are the problem
<jbailey> mdke, seb128: Is there the possibility of hacking it for breezy+1 to support .LANG.html like apache does for auto selection, or do you think it would be too hard?
<jsgotangco> i don't really mind yelp it's what we have....html is a workaround, but has navigation issues....
<mdke> jbailey, over my head I'm afraid
<jeffsch> so in addition to being a rotten help viewer, yelp is also a rotten html viewer
<seb128> mdke: the issue is not to display the file. But yelp work with/index xml files
<jsgotangco> when yelp renders html it takes over the whole screen
<jsgotangco> and with a doc like the faqguide, you'll need to maximize the screen...
<jsgotangco> i've tested it 3 days ago...
<jsgotangco> that's why my concern was the css
<mdke> anyway the docs should be ok to ship with xml
<jsgotangco> i really hated the result
<mdke> for the firefox homepage we'll need html though
<jsgotangco> that's not a problem
<jsgotangco> we just dump everyting in /usr/share/doc
<jbailey> mdke: Does the doc-team maintain that?  It's from the ubuntu-artwork package.
<jsgotangco> the omf file should do the trick for yelp
<mdke> jbailey, yes, firefox needs to be changed to point to the ubuntu-docs version
<jsgotangco> (editing the main yelp frontpage is another story)
<mdke> jbailey, bug is open
<jbailey> mdke: 'k.  /me TODOs that.
<jsgotangco> k are we done with this topic?
<mdke> i think so
<jsgotangco> we go back to xml
* jsgotangco sheeshh
<mdke> best thing is if jbailey works with seb128 to make sure it will work
<mdke> because i don't understand anything here
<jsgotangco> ok FAQ Guide Profile changes
<rob^> ok
<jsgotangco> seems it is being done atm
<rob^> mdke and myself have started it
<mdke> yes
<mdke> it's done except for fixing a weird validation problem that we can't figure out
<rob^> we are removing the kde profile from the faq guide, this can be done as a different doc later
<jsgotangco> ngghh
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Can we recap the TODOs from that?  Package upload with XML, change Firefox/Ephy to use ubuntu-docs start page.  Was there anything else as an action action item?
<rob^> there is also the issue with the archs
<mdke> jbailey, the aboutubuntu doc needs to be there as html too, for firefox
<jsgotangco> jbailey: that's it atm...the CSS for aboutubuntu can be done
<jbailey> 'k thanks.
<jsgotangco> i've been playing around the CSS
<rob^> there is no difference between the i386, amd64 and ppc archs for the FAQ Guide
<rob^> this could all be the same package
<rob^> but in future there may most likely be differences
<jsgotangco> ok go on i'm getting something to drink
<rob^> however none of this was profiled
<rob^> so which way do we go?
<mdke> jbailey, the other thing was, i noticed that the address for the docs was a bit odd, it has both /en/ and /C/ in it, is that intentional?
<jbailey> mdke: I took it from the package build.
<mdke> hmm
<jbailey> mdke: I'll ask in the other channel, I don't think that needs meeting time.
<mdke> again seb128 can probably tell you which is right
<jeffsch> C is the locale that C language programs default to
<jeffsch> we really should be using en instead
<jsgotangco> C the programmiongg lnguage?
<mdke> having both means its difficult to figure out where to put the translations
<jsgotangco> shie
<jsgotangco> no it shouldnt be
<jsgotangco> look at  hoary
<jbailey> The C locale is just the default on a Posix system.  It's traditionally english and uses the ASCII character set.
<jsgotangco> its all in one folder
<jsgotangco> C, tl, xh, et...
<jsgotangco> excedpt that every omf points to a different folder
<jeffsch> we're stuck with C for now, switching to en is a big job and should be left for after breezy release
<jsgotangco> although en is what docbook/xslt recognizes
<jsgotangco> so to recap FAQ Guide is being de-profiled
<mdke> jeffsch, my point is that the docs are in /usr/share/docs/ubuntu-docs/HTML/en/about-ubuntu/C/ now, are both en and C needed? if so, where do the translations go?
<jsgotangco> i'm loving every minute
<rob^> jsgotangco, yep, to use xml we have to
<jsgotangco> bloody hell its like june all over again
<jsgotangco> i guess there's no string freeze atm
<rob^> its a shame jdub and others are not here to explain it better
<jsgotangco> i'm not bitter about it...it should really have been xml in the first placee...but its already september can't blame anyone right now
<mdke> jsgotangco, well the strings can still be frozen, the packaging can be sorted out
<mdke> i want to get the files to translation ASAP
<rob^> argg who wrote that vaildation script anyway?
<mdke> no idea
<jsgotangco> sure...im just too tired atm..i've been fixing those docs for weeks...
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Right.  Through Breezy+1 I want to do weekly uploads of the doc-team package, so that these things get caught earlier.
<rob^> the output from it sucks!
<rob^> it explains nothing
<mdke> jbailey, that would be great
<jsgotangco> whoever is going to UBZ, please plan this in a BOF
<jsgotangco> PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
<mdke> no one :(
<jbailey> jsgotangco: Which this?
<jbailey> Just so I can get it right, since I'll be there.
<jsgotangco> the whole doc process
<rob^> yes, now one is going :(
<jbailey> (Too many threads to follow at once here)
<rob^> err no one that is
<jsgotangco> i've been working on docs since the start and its really frustrating to come up to like this in the end
<jsgotangco> i just felt the smackdown
<jsgotangco> i'll just work on my edubuntu stuff till then
<rob^> there was an hour long discussion in #u-d about it with seb128, jdub etc
<jbailey> jsgotangco: =(  That's part of why I want to integrate everything from teh beginning of the release as opposed to the last moment of preview freeze.
<jbailey> jsgotangco: We'll catch so many things way earlier then.
<mdke> anyway, we can sort it out
<rob^> yeah
<jsgotangco> jbailey: growing pains indeed
<mdke> what still needs to be sorted out?
* rob^ throws a book at this stupid vaildate script
<jsgotangco> anyways, the rest in the agenda has no use for now
<Deepy> damn, why can i never find the help when i need it :P
<Deepy> #ubuntu unable to join channel (address is banned)
<jbailey> jsgotangco: I can also serve a bit as a coding bitch for docteam related things.
<jsgotangco> thanks
<rob^> jsgotangco, yes, your right
<jsgotangco> i'll probably just stay in the sides for now and just do the other stuff...
<rob^> jsgotangco, don't get bitter about it
<jsgotangco> rob^: can't do anything about it now
<jsgotangco> no use either
<rob^> we have to change a few things, but its not that much work
<jsgotangco> np
<rob^> and apart from the faq guide you have until next release to get things sorted
<rob^> the quickguide doesn't matter, its only small and not finished yet anyway
<jsgotangco> ok so anything else
<jsgotangco> the rest of the agenda aren't worth discussing anymore
<rob^> until we get this figured out, the rest of the agenda is pointless
<jbailey> 'kay.  Who will summarise this and sent to u-d?
<jsgotangco> i'm sorry i'm just not up to it atm
<jsgotangco> sorry guys
<rob^> I can if you want
<jsgotangco> do it
<jbailey> rob^: Would you mind?  I'd prefer it was someone who's been involved with the doc team longer than I have been. =)
<rob^> ok
<jsgotangco> boy this day really sucks...
<mdke> jsgotangco, don't worry
<mdke> get some green tea
<jsgotangco> alright then
<jsgotangco> thanks guys
<rob^> yeah, my wife says chocolate helps too
<jsgotangco> let's just meet again in 2 weeks
<jsgotangco> rob^: i'm a diabetic
<rob^> jsgotangco, well. yeah, I guess not :)
<jsgotangco> sorry if i can't be of any use right now 
<rob^> wow he took that bad
<rob^> considering mdke and myself are doing the work
<mdke> :(
<rob^> anyway..
<jeffsch> so are we done here then?
<rob^> yep
<mdke> looks like it
<segfault> is the meeting over? :P
<rob^> yeah
<rob^> it was kind of a non event
<rob^> we are shipping xml now..
<segfault> nice. is there any list of what needs to be translated?
<rob^> it will pretty much only be the FAQ Guide
<rob^> we are getting the .xml up to scratch right now
<rob^> yeah no good mdke 
<rob^> err
<segfault> are you guys uploading ubuntu-doc to breezy branch?
<rob^> yeah, I think jbailey is doing it
<jbailey> Yup
<jbailey> I'll probably get SVN access today, in which case I'll do a breezy branch for the packaging, and start helping with the cleanup of the trunk.
<segfault> should i wait your upload to start translating? or i can get the sources from other place?
<mdke> segfault, please wait until we upload to rosetta and announce on the translators lists
<segfault> no problem.
<mdke> :)
<mdke> shouldn't be long now
<\sh> hi nkour 
<sabdfl> hi guys, what's up?
<\sh> nkour: mark == sabdfl 
<sabdfl> \sh said you were curious about rosetta?
<nkour> sabdfl, hi man. congratulations on the trip to universe and on the successful management of Canonical
<sabdfl> we're all on a trip through the universe ;-)
<nkour> which supports Ubuntu
<nkour> sabdfl, yes but you are lucky to have seen the opposite. 
<nkour> of what we see
<sabdfl> and the support of Ubuntu is more a labour of fun than profit! hopefully we'll make it sustain itself someday
<\sh> ok...i have to do some uploads ... I think you can do without me :) thx sabdfl for your time :)
<sabdfl> ok, thanks \sh
<nkour> sabdfl, we are just curious why LP is not free
<sabdfl> nkour, slomo: do you have specific questions i can help with?
<sabdfl> ok
<sabdfl> LP has some commercial services - for companies that want to make derivatives of ubuntu
<slomo> sabdfl: i'm just here for listening :)
<nkour> sorry to take your time for that it was not intented but \sh doesn't know :)
<sabdfl> we haven't announced those because they are not ready
<sabdfl> but essentially its one of the ways we will compete with sourceforge, redhat, progeny
<nkour> ok but you also work/test  closely with Ubuntu
<sabdfl> yes, ubuntu gets to use it all for free
<nkour> and you grab POT/po for example ..
<nkour> for Rosetta
<sabdfl> yes
<nkour> I'm not a laywer but what does GPL say?
<nkour> on that*
<nkour> I mean aren't po GPL work?
<sabdfl> GPL talks about redistribution
<sabdfl> so, if you take a GPL work, change it, and *share* it, you need to share the changes too
<sabdfl> in the case of LP, the code has never been released
<nkour> yes I'm aware
<sabdfl> well
<sabdfl> bits have been released, under the GPL
<nkour> yes I"m aware of that too
<nkour> I think it's very wise that all is GPL asap though.. I do not understand why it has to be ready to do so
<sabdfl> nkour: some parts of LP will be commercial services, for companies that produce their own versions of Linux
<nkour> I always thought the power of FLOSS is that community can fix bugs, atm we have to ask a closed-circle of devs
<nkour> sabdfl, so that disallows you to release the others part as GPL?
<sabdfl> no, we could certainly release parts of it
<sabdfl> but they would not compile and run
<sabdfl> and that's no fun
<sabdfl> we've said it will be released if canonical fails
<sabdfl> and over time, as we can componentise it, we will release the components that have no competitive advantage
<sabdfl> i would love to release the regitry TODAY
<sabdfl> but it's deeply integrated, it would not be possible without lots of work
<sabdfl> to extract the registry from the rest of it
<nkour> sabdfl, yes at least you could put a timeplan of when you will consider LP ready for GPL?
<sabdfl> it will take years
<sabdfl> and as we gpl some parts, we will develop new pieces
<nkour> sabdfl, or else it sounds as an excuse to many ears [and you're clever I do not have to say that] 
<sabdfl> well - we publish all of the data in launchpad
<sabdfl> translations come out as po files every day
<sabdfl> so nobody is dependent on it to get their data out
<nkour> yes apparently you also test on Ubuntu so that makes integration with your ubuntu and non-free LP not very logical
<sabdfl> test on ubuntu?
<nkour> well I hear that you plan to integrate a python module about auto adding LP support to a gtk app for example
<nkour> s/I hear/I saw/
<nkour> you not you personally
<sabdfl> yes, LP has api's and if we release code to talk to those API's it will be free code
<nkour> but that can be considered cool etc.. anyways at least page should say: "LP will not be GPL until years to come?"
<sabdfl> but - bits of it are already gpl
<sabdfl> we have released tons of code, and will continue to do so
<dkirov> sabdfl, what stops you make it all GPL?
<sabdfl> dkirov: competition with progeny, redhat, novell
<nkour> <sabdfl> nkour: some parts of LP will be commercial services, for companies that produce their own versions of Linux
<nkour> dkirov, *
<dkirov> competition in what way. Who will make more code on non GPL? I cannot get it
<sabdfl> it's like altavista, or google. they use free software, they release a lot of code, but they keep their core competitive advantage closed until it makes sense to them to release it
<sabdfl> dkirov: there are lots of companies making custom distros
<sabdfl> there are free tools to do so
<sabdfl> we will offer a web based service to automate a lot of it
<dkirov> sabfl, with google it is different, because they don;t release this code
<sabdfl> and charge for that service
<dkirov> they use free software for their needs, which is one of the freedoms
<sabdfl> dkirov: they release some code, but not the code that they believe gives them a competitive advantage
<sabdfl> same with lp
<sabdfl> we release some code
<sabdfl> but not the pieces that we consider to give us a competitive advantage
<sabdfl> i hope that this will allow us to get ubuntu to be sustainable, so it doesn't need ongoing interest from me - i can go back to space
<dkirov> which is not GPL. I cannot understand how can you release code, which you plan to GPL and not make it GPL from the beginning
<sabdfl> and leave mdz & team to make ubuntu better, funding themselves
<sabdfl> dkirov: we have not released LP
<sabdfl> if you own code, you can release pieces of it
<dkirov> so it means that there is no LP ?
<sabdfl> dkirov: ?
<sabdfl> launchpad.net
<sabdfl>     def process(self, bug):
<sabdfl>         # we are not creating, but we need to find the bug from the bug num
<sabdfl>         return getUtility(IBugSet).get(bug)
<sabdfl>         assert IBugLinkTarget.providedBy(self.context)
<sabdfl>         return self.context.linkBug(content)
<sabdfl> oops
<dkirov> sorry, is LP only web based. Someone told me that it comes on ubunto
<sabdfl> i just released some code ;-)
<sabdfl> yes, LP is web based
<sabdfl> we have never released code under a non-free licence
<dkirov> so, it is independent of the distro?
<sabdfl> yes
<sabdfl> it's not on the cd
<sabdfl> it's on our servers
<sabdfl> there is a library in ubuntu that lets the ubuntu apps connect to launchpad, and that library is of course free too
<dkirov> sabdfl, ok
<sabdfl> no worries. we will never introduce non-free apps to ubuntu
<nkour> sabdfl, ok
<nkour> sabdfl, do you plan to go back to space?
<sabdfl> i just turned down a request from a company that wants its app in main, and is non-free
<sabdfl> i told them multiverse
<sabdfl> nkour: yes, in time. if we make a success of ubuntu
<sabdfl> would you like to come along?
<nkour> sabdfl, well. who wouldn't? and I do not feel special so I take that as a nice gesture :)
<nkour> sabdfl, what I never understood is this: you were born in a rich family?
<nkour> and if yes, how come you got involved with GNU/Linux and not golf? :)
<nkour> sabdfl, anyways I even read the fight about you or not you being the first african in space :)
<nkour> sabdfl, keep it up man and I hope all goes well. thanks for your time
<sabdfl> thanks guys
<sabdfl> nkour: no, i was born into a middle class family
<sabdfl> i was very lucky during the 1990's, at the start of the .com boom
<sabdfl> i learned about SSL and PKI and crypto, and built a business called Thawte, from the garage
<sabdfl> very lucky
<nkour> oh yes that Thawte rings a bell :)
<sabdfl> stay well
<sabdfl> back to my code now
<nkour> sabdfl, enjoy
<sabdfl> hey Mez
<sabdfl> see you at UBZ!
<Mez> evening mark, nice interview in PC Format ... I just read
<Mez> sabdfl - was the see you at UBZ to me? or someone else?
<ogra> heh
<sabdfl> Mez: you, dude
<Mez> woah...
<\sh> sabdfl: thx for your time...
<Mez> I've been away all week... didn't know I'd been sponsored
<\sh> Mez: you don't read mail? :)
<Mez> I havent had net access for 2 weeks
<Mez> I'm just downloading my mail now
<Mez> downliading mesage 269 of 2226
<\sh> Mez: wow
<Mez> yeah
<Mez> been away since last tuesday and look what happens
<Mez> hmm..
<Mez> poop...
<Mez> I dont have a laptop
<Mez> when/where were sponsorship things talked about
<Mez> in public?
<Mez> cause I wanna read logs
<\sh> Mez: in private
<\sh> Mez: but I just got a adrenalin kick this morning ;)
<Mez> \sh: you're going too?
<Mez> well I need to wait for this email
<Mez> lol
<Mez> and find out what I need 
<\sh> Mez: Yes ;) my flights are booked already :)
<Mez> lol
<\sh> edward is fast..and claire is very helpfull I must say
<Mez> hmm... if I'm being sponsored does that mean I have to pay then get reimbursed or something?
<Mez> *shrugs*
<Mez> I'll wait for the email
<\sh> Mez: you can adjust the flight dates..and you have to pay the days before or after...
<Mez> ??
<Mez> I have to pay what ?
<\sh> Mez: ok..arrival is 29...(officially)
<\sh> so if you want to come on the 26
<\sh> you have to pay 3 nights in some hotel
<\sh> (which is very expensive in the holliday inn ;)))
<Mez> ah, wouldnt be able to afford that :P
<\sh> but from the 29 to the pointed out date...it's sponsored
<\sh> I'm leaving on the 6th
<Mez> what exactly is actually paid for by canonical ( or more to the point, what do I need to pay for)
<\sh> flight, hotel, and breakfast? i don't know...the evening amusement with your motu dudes you have to pay...or I ,-)
<\sh> flight and hotel yes..breakfast is standard for the hotel...so ask claire ,-)
<Mez> *shrugs*
<Mez> I'll wait for the email
<Mez> (wish this net was faster)
<\sh> Mez: but I will work some more nightshifts this month..so I can pay all the beer which I promised to mdz/elmo/daniels/etc.pp.
* Mez has only promised kamion a beer :D
<Mez> s/kamion/keybuk
<\sh> Mez: ;)
<Mez> but, I wont be able to buy beer there anyways
<\sh> Mez: we will find a solution
* Mez is a lil too young
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/  | 12 Sep 19:00 UTC:  Loco Teams Meeting | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 22 Sep 12:00 UTC: MOTU
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-09-16
<verdeter_> http://verdeter02.skyblog.com
<terrex> hi
<sivang> ogra: yo, edubuntu meeting is up right?
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-09-17
<Ju> Hi all !
<smurfix> locoteams meeting in 20min
<Ivarix> k
<mitsuhiko> mion
<mitsuhiko> s/mion/moin
<Ivarix> :-)
* \sh lurks
* Ivarix falling a sleep
<mitsuhiko> hi \sh
<\sh> hi mitsuhiko,smurfix :)
<Ivarix> hi both
<Ivarix> \sh: Mithrandir
<Ivarix> mitsuhiko
<Ivarix> :-)
<mitsuhiko> dam di dam :)
<Ivarix> ok
<Ivarix> start meet
<Yann2> Ivarix > and you are..?
<mitsuhiko> Yann2: one of the splitted ubuntu-lv team
<mitsuhiko> ;-)
<Yann2> oh :D
<\sh> Ivarix: what is with Mithrandir ? ,-)
<Yann2> smurfix > ping
<Yann2> mmh. even hno73 is not here, though he decided the date :s
<Ivarix> i do not know. just not correct nickname
<\sh> Ivarix: oh ok ;)
<Ivarix> wanted say one more time hi to mitsuhiko
<titus`> hi everybody
<smurfix> Yann2: I'm here, don't worry ;-)
<Yann2> smurfix > could you lead the debate?
<smurfix> sure
<smurfix> I planned to ;-)
<segfault> 5 min?
<mitsuhiko> segfault: 3'
<segfault> ups!
<segfault> :D
<segfault> the changes made in rosetta are automatically synced with doceam's svn?
<segfault> err, docteam.
<spear> hi
<smurfix> segfault: EWRONGCHANNEL?
<Yann2> so, no hno73 nor Jane? :/
<segfault> ops
<Yann2> might be difficult to get some answers :s
<Yann2> hno73 could have come :/ 
<Yann2> well, let's start 
<titus`> wait 5 min ?
* mitsuhiko goes copying the #ubuntu-locoteams topic to tomboy...
<smurfix> *gavel* the agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamMeeting
<Yann2> Please introduce yourself for logs
<smurfix> so hello everybody
<Yann2> Yann2, Ubuntu-fr admin.
<Ivarix> hi smurfix
* mitsuhiko is the admin of ubuntuusers.de
<Mirv> Mirv, ubuntu-fi admin
* kolcvk Konstantin Koltsov
<smurfix> Yann2: if you want to lead the meeting, just go ahead ;-)
* dand is Dan Damian, RomanianTeam
<titus`> titus`, ubuntu-fr admin
<Yann2> sorry :p
* Ivarix leader @ LLC (Latvian Linux Center) - http://llc.smg.lv
* smurfix is MatthiasUrlichs, locoteam coordinator
* kolcvk founder ubuntu-lv
* \sh StephanHermann, MOTU, and just curious about the charity agenda item :)
<mitsuhiko> \sh: :)
* Mirv notices gnome-terminal (2.12) still has problems with irssi, switches to xterm
<mitsuhiko> ...
* spear ,wandering from Ubuntu-fr
<smurfix> I notice there are lots more people in the channel ;-)
<mitsuhiko> erm. is it possible to come to point 1?
<Ju> Ju, ubuntu-fr user
<mitsuhiko> " Hosting: Ubuntu-provided vs. sponsored vs ..?"
<Ivarix> :-)
<smurfix> mitsuhiko: sure ;-)
<smurfix> ... except that ...
<mitsuhiko> ?
<smurfix> that's an item I'd like hno73 to be here for
<Yann2> smurfix > basically he decided this meeting :/
<mitsuhiko> ok. than we can switch to point 2
<Yann2> same point -_-
<smurfix> " Trademark issues for creating local charity organisations named ubuntu-something" -- who proposed that?
<mitsuhiko> not me
<Yann2> I did
<Yann2> just let's go over :p
<kolcvk> arent we waiting mako?
<Yann2> already got my answer :)
<smurfix> kolcvk: mako is no longer with canonical
<littlepaul> Yann2, and the answer is?
<kolcvk> ...
<ivoks> smurfix: since when?
<Yann2> i should mail trademark@
<mitsuhiko> ivoks: 3 weeks?
<\sh> ivoks: since he is working for MIT
<\sh> ivoks: it was on his blog
<Ivarix> that mako is not in canoncical - it`s not a news
<Ju> and so o, Planet Ubuntu
<Ivarix> it was on his site about some weeks ago
<mitsuhiko> \sh: and in some other blogs
<ivoks> ah... didn't know that...
<Yann2> distribution of cds, conference packs...
<mitsuhiko> Yann2: can you answer point 2?
<Yann2> Jane, or someone of canonical, should be here.
<Yann2> [21:06:31]  <Yann2> i should mail trademark@
<smurfix> Next would be "Distribution of Cds and conference packs - logistics issues" -- which would also need somebody from Canonical, preferably silbs again
<smurfix> If we go on like that, this meeting is going to be quite short :-/
* Yann2 agrees.
<mitsuhiko> rofl
<mitsuhiko> than we have only one point to discuss atm
<mitsuhiko> "SFD plans?" although i don't know what this is
<smurfix> " Relations to Canonical - eventual creation of a Locoteams team, to improve communication between canonical and locoteams" -- ditto somebody from Canonical.
<smurfix> Umm, "SFD plans" is a but late I would say ... that was last Saturday
<smurfix> or is that for next year?  ;-)
<mitsuhiko> :)
* Ivarix as LLC can be East Europe warehouse
<smurfix> Anybody know who proposed that?
<Ivarix> i have place where we can put all that
<Ivarix> cds and so on...
<mitsuhiko> is SFD the free software day?
<Yann2> Ivarix > could you handle shipping?
<kolcvk> smurfix what about me and ubuntu-lv
<smurfix> Ivarix: it's not that easy
<Ivarix> kolcvk: it is next point :-)
<mitsuhiko> kolcvk: there is one person missing
<Ivarix> Yann2: arghm. i do not know yet.
<Ivarix> he is not in gsm zone
<smurfix> kolcvk: that'd be the item after that
<Ivarix> gsm is down
<mitsuhiko> ok
<Ivarix> about shipping..
<mitsuhiko> 10 minute meeting :)
<Ivarix> next week after meeting with IBM Latvia
<Yann2> well don't ask me to work with canonical if noone is able to showup -_-
<Ivarix> i think we will be available to make shippings to Lithuania/Estonia and Latvia (locally)
<Ivarix> but for that we need cds which to resend
<kolcvk> if canon. sponsors it then we would lote to
<smurfix> Yann2: I don't know, I also cannot find the announcement in the locoteams list archive
<kolcvk> love*
<dand> could we please focus on one topic at a time?
<smurfix> dand: definitely
<smurfix> Ivarix: we need somebody from Canonical to discuss that
<smurfix> assuming you don't want to pay for this all by yourself
<smurfix> ;-)
<Ivarix> i could
<Ivarix> but only if i will get something for that
<Ivarix> in lithuania/Latvia/estonia - without any problems
<smurfix> anyway
<Yann2> same thing in france, well
<Ivarix> in worse situaation - i can ship them by myself
<Ivarix> :-)
<smurfix> *gavel*
<Ju> At least it was here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar and this page is known... /topic ...
<dand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas could have been updated
<smurfix> it seems that (a) the email announcement got dropped somewhere, and (b) some people who should know better and be here anyway are not
<smurfix> dand: So how many wiki pages which point to other wiki pages with agendas are there ??
<dand> smurfix: good question, i don't know
<smurfix> so we need to find a time for the next meeting and announce that a bit more widely and/or focused on the people we need to talk to
<dand> should we ask somebody from canonical to choose a date/time?
<smurfix> dand: I'll try to get that number reduced, I didn't even know about MeetingAgendas
<smurfix> the CC meeting is tomorrow
<Ivarix> about shipping - i am interested in all that, because last ship (35kg) which i got @ sunday is down till 200cds
<dand> smurfix: well it's the url in this channel's topic
<mitsuhiko> ok
<smurfix> Ivarix: you're definitely off topic now
<Ivarix> about 400-500 gone @ sdf day party
<Ivarix> smurfix: sorr...
<Ivarix> :-)
<titus`> maybe we could report this meeting to tomorrow after the cc meeting ?
<smurfix> I suggest that we bring that up on the CC meeting
<Ivarix> just answering due text upstears :-)
<smurfix> the Canonical people should be there
<smurfix> so we can find a date
<mitsuhiko> tomorrow i'm not online :(
<dand> great
<littlepaul> smurfix, we should wait a few minutes - im still optimistic
* Ivarix i think will be too
<Ivarix> but....
<Ivarix> i am not sure
<mitsuhiko> littlepaul is not known as optimisticus
<smurfix> mitsuhiko: you don't need to be there tomorrow, as long as you're there when the next meeting actually is ;-)
<kolcvk> i will be online
<spear> are Canonical people base on Mann or does the social base of the company have nothing to do with the place Canonical people are based at ?
<mitsuhiko> smurfix: the next meeting is tomorrow 12:00 UTC
<smurfix> spear: Canonical people are distributed all over the planet actually
<mdke> spear, the latter
<kolcvk> ok
<spear> :)
<Yann2> smurfix > well.. ?
<Yann2> what's next?
<smurfix> Yann2: that's easy, unfortunately
<smurfix> I hereby declare this meeting closed -- we'll do better next time. I hope :-/
<Yann2> when do we decide the next time?
<mitsuhiko> Yann2: first ask one from canonical
<smurfix> Yann2: tomorrow at the CC meeting
<mitsuhiko> who is atm our man at canonical?
<smurfix> I'm putting us on the agenda now
<Yann2> mitsuhiko > i _already_ did
<Yann2> hno73.
<spear> mdke ... the latter :(
<mitsuhiko> and why isn't he here?
<smurfix> mitsuhiko: We don't know
<Yann2> just ask him when he shows up, he might have forgot
<mitsuhiko> does anyone have his mail addy?
<\sh> smurfix: mdke is not away ;)
<mdke> no
<kolcvk> if you give me his cell number then i can call him
<mdke> i'm here briefly
<mdke> why?
<\sh> I thought they need u
<\sh> forget it :)
<mdke> k
<spear> bye
<\sh> smurfix: when are u flying to montreal?
<smurfix> \sh: not finalized yet, 31th at the latest, depends on whether I can free up the weekend
<\sh> smurfix: ok :) after quite some years we will meet at least in person :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2005-09-18
<womble> mako: Did you get a chance to review my wiki page for completeness?
<mako> womble: no, i haven't had an opportunity
<womble> mako: 'k.  thanks.
<womble> I'll live until the next meeting, and work up a bit more credit.  <grin>
<mako> Kamion: do you know where elmo or or sabdfl is?
<Kamion> elmo got to bed pretty late last night judging from /whois; I'll SMS him in a moment
<Kamion> no idea about sabdfl
<mako> Kamion: /me can go find his phone and sms mark
<Kamion> I've got my phone here, I'll do it now
<Kamion> mako: SMSed mark
<Kamion> hi elmo
<mako> Kamion: sounds good
<elmo> mark won't be able to make it
<mako> elmo: hola
<Kamion> ah, ok
<elmo> ADSL is down for all of South Ken
<elmo> so both home and office are broken for him
<mako> quite annoying
<mako> well lets move on then.. hopefully BT or whoever is at fault will fix it :)
<smurfix> he could use his phone ;-)
<mako> greetings everyone
<mako> now would be a good time to state your name for the log
* mako is Benjamin Mako Hill
* smurfix is Matthias Urlichs
* Yann2 is Yann Hamon
* kobold is Fabio Tranchitella
* titus` is David Larlet
* ogra is Oliver Grawert
* Kamion is Colin Watson
* segfault is Carlos Santiviago
* Ju is Julien Rottenberg
<mako> well, this looks like it will be a short meeting
<Kamion> (yay)
<mako> if you are on the agenda as a new member candidate, please go ahead and prepare (in advance) a short summary of the things you've done for ubuntu so far
* \sh is StephanHermann
<mako> and the things you plan to do in the future or the places you want to do take ubuntu
<Yann2> (if theree's some time left at the end of the agenda, some questions of the locoteams of yesterday are still without answer)
<mako> your record and your vision
<mako> Yann2: yes, that should be fine
<mako> in any case.. 
<mako> smurfix: no new loco teams this meeting?
<mako> none of the agenda
<smurfix> I was on holiday the last two weeks
<ogra> phew, the proposed members list is looong
<smurfix> I'll get them rallied for next time
<mako> smurfix: sounds good :)
<mako> a little bit of late (norther hemisphere) summer lull is appreciated :)
<mako> in terms of new members
<mako> 3 people were deferred last time
<mako> i didn't see any of their names in the intro
<ogra> mako, https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntumembers/
<ogra> mako, thats the new list afaik
<mako> ogra: i think people still need to add themselves to the agenda
<elmo> ogra: that doesn't supersede the agenda
<ogra> hmm, ok, i understood it different...
<mako> ogra: you declare your intention on that page and then add yourself to the agenda when you can attend
<mako> ogra: very few people on that list are here
<ogra> ok
<smurfix> NB, somebody should go through the proposed people there and enable those that already *are* members (like myself ;-)
<sivang> hi all
<smurfix> s/enable/approve
<sivang> hey mako 
* mako coughs
<mako> smurfix: yes, ok :)
<mako> sivang: hey there
<mako> ok
<elmo> actually, seriously
<mako> is DankoAlexeyev RobertStoffers or JonathanJesse here?
<elmo> if someone wants to volunteer to go through the list of proposed people and work out who should be approved, based on previous CC meetings, that'd be great
<elmo> any takers?
<sivang> mako: is there any way around lp\s signing CoC for getting approved as a member in lp? (and being able to use the u.c mail alias)
<elmo> sivang: no
<elmo> sivang: if signing the CoC in LP isn't working for you, ping the LP team about getting it fixed
<elmo> sivang: if that doesn't work, talk to me or sabdfl
<mako> i have at least two different launchpad accounts and can never remember which one does what
<mako> neither seem to be able to change this
<mako> grr
<elmo> mako: change which?
<mako> approving members
<mako> anyway
<mako> lets move on
<mako> it's not worth wrestling with lp in the meeting
<mako> alright
* smurfix vanishes for 10min or so
<mako> danko, robert, or jonathan?
<mako> no
<sivang> elmo: we'll do, thanks
<mako> kobold: you're up
<mako> kobold should be Fabio Tranchitella
<Kamion> doko: can you say a few words about kobold as your SoC student?
<kobold> mako: yes.
<mako> kobold: tell us what you've done with ubuntu so far and what your vision of the future is
<doko> Kamion: unfortunately I can't tell anything bad ;-)
<mako> doko: damn :)
<kobold> I've worked on Ubuntu zope packages for the Google Summer of Code project, and my mentor is doko.
<kobold> Our goal was the integration between debian and ubuntu about zope packaging ..
<doko> he did prepare the zope* packages, updated zope products, and extended dzhandle (zope-common) to the specs that we did extend on debconf
<Kamion> doko: well, that's a good start :)
<kobold> with the support of a common team.
<kobold> I packaged zope2.8, plone2.1 and CPS, other than some minor changes within zope-common and zope-debhelper.
<elmo> FWIW, I haven't really examined the packages closely, but I've seen there's a non-trivial amount of it, and I'm glad to see the divergence between ubuntu and debian zope packaging being fixed
<kobold> elmo: I think we should try to join the effort, and the SoC project has been a great opportunity to do so.
<doko> elmo: yes, that was the goal, having a common packaging base
<kobold> I'm the maintainer of plone and related packages in Debian, too, and having a common base-set for both distros is a great thing.
<mako> kobold: so, are you going to be continuing this work in ubuntu not that your SoC work is done?
<mako> i agree that the work on common packages is a fantastic step
<kobold> mako: sure, this is my main interest.
<mako> great
<mako> kobold: well, thank you so much for your contributions
<mako> are you looking to try your hand in other areas in ubuntu as well or have you not thought that far forward yet? :)
<kobold> My main goal would be to establish and support a common team between Debian, Ubuntu and other deb-based distros, maybe not only about Zope packaging.
<kobold> mako: not, I haven't thought that yet.
<mako> kobold: wonderful. we need as many people like you as we can get
<kobold> I've still some minor things to do about zope/plone.. ;)
<mako> kobold: also, you didn't mention where you where you are from :)
<kobold> I live half time in Italy (Turin), half time in the south of Hungary (Pcs)
<mako> are you involved in loco teams yet in either place?
<kobold> My hungarian is far from being perfect... and about italian, I'm not involved (yet).
<mako> kobold: alright then
* mako is happy with approving kobold for membership
<mako> Kamion, elmo ?
<kobold> mako: thanks a lot.
<Kamion> yes, definitely
<elmo> ack
<kobold> Kamion, elmo: thanks.
<mako> kobold: welcome! :)
<ajmitch> kobold: great to have you as a member :)
<mako> as soon as i figure out how to get lp working again, i'll approve you :)
<doko> kobold: congrats :)
<ogra> welcome kobold 
<\sh> welcome kobold :) nice to have u onboard
<kobold> \sh, doko, ogra, ajmitch: thanks!
<mako> is there anybody else here for membership that was not on the agenda?
<mako> alright then, moving on
<mako> segfault: you have the next agenda item
* ajmitch pinged rob, no response
<segfault> ok
<Kamion> mako: I'll do it now seeing as I figured out how to earlier
<mako> Kamion: thanks :)
<mako> Kamion: you should approve smurfix while you are in there :)
<segfault> well, first i'd like to apologize for not being able to show in the last meeting.
<mako> segfault: it's fine. that's why we have meetings at different times.. not everyone can make all of them
<Kamion> mako: already did earlier
<Kamion> (done)
<mako> Kamion: thanks
<segfault> as i can see, what i asked ia already being done, lists for translations discussion, like ubuntu-l10n-es
<segfault> i created one in listas.prognus.com.br, but however i think its better to have all lists in one place, lists.ubuntu.com
* mako nods to segfault 
<segfault> hehe
<mako> segfault: so basically you asked for language specific l10n lists, someone was uncomfortable with this asking you to use transloator and loco lists, and then somebody got convinced and the lists started being created?
<segfault> yeah, i guess so
<mako> segfault: if that's the case, it sounds like your problem has been solved :)
<mako> segfault: anything else on the topic that needs to be discussed?
<segfault> yes, now who is in charge of lists administration?
<mako> segfault: jdub
<mako> segfault: i'm an admin for many lists
<mako> meaning i can approve messages and such
<mako> but i can't create new lists
<segfault> and how about making one list not "private"?
<segfault> we have a list called ubuntu-br, but it doesn't show in the main page
<mako> segfault: go to the lists info page and find the email address of the admin in the footer
<mako> segfault: and then email that person
<segfault> ok
<mako> the non-english lists will not be maintained by jdub or me but rather by some speaker of the language
<segfault> and one last question, how i can get an ubuntu.com email? :)
<mako> elmo?
<ogra> segfault, you get it if you are member
<ogra> segfault, automatically assigned to your launchpad account
<segfault> humm
<mako> ogra: does that actually work now?
<ogra> mako, apparently
<mako> wow :)
<segfault> i am acctually a member, but didn't know that
<segfault> will test, then
<mako> segfault: well, don't feel too bad. i didn't know it either :)
<ogra> mako, at least  handfull of MOTUs told me it works
<mako> i mean, i knew it was supposed to work
<ajmitch> mako: we heard at last week's TB meeting
<mako> i didn't know it *actually* worked :)
<mako> ajmitch: well that's excellent
<ajmitch> mako: don't sound so surprised at stuff working ;)
<mako> ajmitch: i've been here longer than you ;)
<ajmitch> yeah :)
<mako> anyway, is Christian Bjlevik around?
<mako> segfault: well, thanks for showing up :)
<segfault> rcpt to:<segfault@ubuntu.com>
<mako> segfault: i'm glad to hear the list issue is already tackled
<\sh> mako: it's nafallo...
<segfault> 250 Ok: queued as C1075B6846D
<segfault> well, looks like its working
<mako> segfault: killer
<mako> Nafallo: he appears :)
<ajmitch> Nafallo: welcome :)
<mako> alright
<Nafallo> hi all! :-)
<Nafallo> sup? :-)
<mako> How to handle roles when the owner of it is on vacation? (ChristianBjlevik)
<segfault> thanks
<mako> i seem to remember this was about something in specific
<Nafallo> ah, yes.
<mako> was it smurf and DNS issues?
<Nafallo> ubuntu-se.org needs to be moved to the new dedicated servers ip.
<Nafallo> but I think smurfix handles that, and he is still on vac, no?
<mako> smurfix is here :)
<mako> so if he's on vacation he's doing a poor job of it
<elmo> yes, ubuntu.com email works for all maintainers who have a signed CoC in LP
<smurfix> back
<elmo> e.g. even smurfix's and kobold's work now ;-P
<smurfix> elmo: cool
<mako> very cool
<kobold> elmo: does fabio.tranchitella@ubuntu.com work, too?
<elmo> kobold: just lpname@ubuntu.com
<Nafallo> anyway, this happens on lot of other stuff aswell. as soon as the owner of the thing goes away things stalls. we should have some overlaying priviliege owner or something...
<Nafallo> smurfix: yay! glad to see you back :-)
<kobold> elmo: ok
<Kamion> Nafallo: depends on the type of "thing" ...
<mako> Nafallo: ok, everyone agrees that parallelizing things is a good idea
<elmo> kobold: which is 'kobold' for you - sorry, there were too many problems with first.last@ and internationalization
<Nafallo> Kamion: indeed, but in this case dns-servers should have more admins ;-)
<mako> Nafallo: but this is going to be a constant struggle
<kobold> elmo: no problem, just curious about that..
<mako> we can say "everything should be doable by two people" but that won't make it happen :)
<smurfix> WRT DNS, I'll probably switch to secure DNS updates and let the people in question do their zones themselves
<mako> smurfix: excellent
<Nafallo> mako: does it have to be? :-) can't we just see to that the duties of the person on vacation can be appointed to another person during that time?
<mako> Nafallo: that should handle DNS
<Nafallo> smurfix: yay! rock on :-)
<elmo> Nafallo: it's not realistic to assume that everything can and should have multiple redundant backups
<elmo> because it ignores all the fun trust and expertise issues
<elmo> it's much better to deal with stuff on a case-by-case basis, as and when needed
<Kamion> Nafallo: we can say that as general policy but it still has to be done, and you have to find somebody else willing, appropriate, and able to take over, and you have to realise it's going to be a problem ahead of time, etc. - it's something we can try to improve but it's not something we can say "henceforth it will be this way and everything will be fine", if you see what I mean
<mako> Nafallo: i think that's already the case. that's basically the last item in the CoC
<smurfix> Nafallo: I already did delegate root on my box to somebody, he could have done an update if urgent. It was just a small matter of asking the right people who that person is ;-)
<Nafallo> smurfix: who is somebody? ;-)
<mako> Nafallo: should have asked that like 3 weeks ago :)
<Kamion> it's certainly good to have good records of who does what so that we have a better chance of spotting problems ahead of time
* mako nods to Kamion
<Nafallo> anyway, this point was to raise discussion :-)
<Kamion> in this case it sounds like the right people didn't know ahead of time, but we'll know next time - until a different person goes on holiday :-)
<mako> Nafallo: so perhaps one constructive idea is to come up with a plan for documenting these things
<mako> Nafallo: and then to go around to places you see as single points of failure and making sure that they participate in creating that documentation
<mako> Nafallo: you put it somewhere like on the wiki
<mako> we'll just put the root pw for smurfix's machine on the wiki
<mako> problemed solved
<Nafallo> mako: right! :-)
<Nafallo> hehe
* smurfix grabs his argument enhancer to convince mako that that's probably not a good idea
<mako> Nafallo: so, since this is something that you have been thinking about
<ajmitch> smurfix: no?
<mako> Nafallo: maybe you can push that?
<mako> Nafallo: i think with a little bit of cat herding, you could create a useful set of resources that would save many pepple much time and frustration :)
<Nafallo> mako: sure. right now I wonder who delegates dedicated server. hno73 is on vacation, no? ;-)
<mako> Nafallo: add that to the list :)
<mako> Nafallo: cool :)
<Nafallo> mako: yepp :-)
<mako> Nafallo: can we move on?
<mako> anything else?
<Nafallo> mako: sure. I had what I came for ;-)
<mako> Next Item Is: Software Freedom Day reports from locoteams, let's hear what happened!
<mako> anyone have anything to report
<mako> because i do
<Nafallo> for Sweden, nothing yet.
* mako organized an event convenient located like 100 meters from my home in harvard square in cambridge/boston :)
<mako> handed out about ~400 ubuntu CDs
<mako> didn't manage to get any SFD CDs
<Nafallo> yay
<mako> had ~7-8 people
<Nafallo> SFD == TheOpenCD?
<mako> yes
<Nafallo> oki
<mako> we talked to most people we gave the CDs
<mako> one person saw the CDs in my hand and asked "is that an ubuntu CD?"
<mako> several people who were already ubuntu users approached us as well
<mako> which was pretty cool
<mako> and it seemed like almost everyone knew firefox
<mako> we gave away loads of x86 and many PPC CDs and almost no AMD64
<mako> the fun part was trying to guess the mac users
<mako> i got pretty good at it
<segfault> there were no langpacks in the livecd
<segfault> :(
<segfault> besides en.
<mako> the fashionable and arty people all use macs
<ogra> segfault, no space
<mako> like Kamion and elmo
<segfault> yeah, i know..
<Nafallo> hehe, and the hardcores use amd64, no? ;-)
<mako> Nafallo: something like that :)
<mako> well apparently *nobody* does :)
<ogra> hey
<mako> we gave away like 2 :)
<Nafallo> hehe
<Nafallo> the hardcore users already got ubuntu installed ;-)
<mako> ogra: i think it's clear that a random sample of ubuntu users has more amd64 users than a random sample of people on the street :)
<mako> in any case
<ogra> :)
<mako> i know we sent many cds to other teams
<mako> so i think if we multiply my experience times a couple hundred, you have a vision of how things went :)
<mako> pretty cool
<segfault> /w/window prev
<segfault> ops.
<mako> smurfix: LoCoTeamMeeting: find a (new) date, find who's responsible for these items at Canonical etc.
<smurfix> yes
<smurfix> we tried to hold a loco meeting yesterday
<Kamion> mako: arty> haha
<smurfix> see the LoCoTeamMeeting page
<smurfix> unfortunately it seems that the announcement didn't arrive at the mailng list for whatever reason
<mako> Kamion, elmo: you guys are practically painters
<smurfix> so we couldn't actually get anything done
<elmo> ... man, only a student for a couple of weeks, and he's already high
<elmo> ;-P
<mako> smurfix: you going to reschedule?
<smurfix> Yann2: anything you want to add?
<mako> Yann2: please go ahead
<mako> i'd like to come to the next one
<Yann2> smurfix > not really, i thought maybe we could go through some of the locoteam meeting points, as long as canonical people are here
<mako> Yann2: i really think it's another meeting
<Yann2> well, go ahead :)
<smurfix> esp. we would like to know who considers themselves responsible for some of the points on that agenda
<mako> Yann2: i will make it to the next one if it's at a time that i can
<smurfix> so that if they're not actually here at the moment we can grab them to find a convenient time
* mako nods
<mako> ok, for trademark issues, you should coordinate with jane unless she delegates to someone else
<mako> anyone using the mark should get a license from the the foundation/canonical
<Yann2> already mailed, waiting for an answer
<mako> it shouldn't cost anything but it's the best idea
<mako> Yann2: right.. you seem to be the first person to do many things around here :)
<mako> Yann2: which is totally great.. but it means you have to let people figure out exactly how it is done :)
<mako> "Distribution of Cds and conference packs - logistics issues" should coordinate with marilize and with jane silber
<fraide> hi every body...
<mako> sibls and marilize.. or email info@shipit.ubuntu.com
<mako> fraide: hey there
<smurfix> mako: silbs ;-)
<mako> SFD plans seems to be moot at this point
<smurfix> mako: true -- don't know how that ended up there ;-)
<mako> "Hosting: Ubuntu-provided vs. sponsored vs ..?" should be discussed with henrik and smurfix i guess.. if you need more authority, i'm not entirely sure who that would be.. it might have been me but i can't really speak for canonical any more
<smurfix> henrik scheduled the last meeting with us, but he didn't show up
<Yann2> it already was, I think we got some kind of arrangement
<mako> Yann2: good
<mako> if by "Relations to Canonical" you are also including relations to the rest of the ubuntu project and the foundation.. i may be able to help with that
<mako> or jdub
<mako> maybe
<mako> that's my brainstorming
<mako> none of those people have actually agreed to do it though :)
<mako> but it's an idea of contacts
<smurfix> OK, thanks, that helps a lot
<mako> if they can't do it, they should be able to tell you who can
<mako> smurfix: please announce the next meeting on -news or something
<mako> smurfix: msg me if you need moderation for that list
<Yann2> mako > a common contact for every locoteam stuff would be great
<smurfix> will do
<Yann2> quite complicated if each team has to mail 4 or 5 people to get information ;)
<mako> Yann2: yes.. that's the locoteam list though, right?
<mako> Yann2: you run into language issues quite quickly
<smurfix> ... assuming all these people are on the list
<Yann2> mako > i'm doing my best :p
<mako> Yann2: or maybe i don't understand
<mako> Yann2: in any case, lets discussd ita t the loco team meeting
<mako> :)
<mako> Yann2: next monday would work for me
<mako> just throwing that out there :)
<mako> smurfix: anything else on locos?
<mako> because if not....
<Yann2> I probably won't be there, but titus` might be. titus` ? :)
<smurfix> mako: no -- next time
<titus`> yes I can
<mako> time for..  Any other business?
<mako> titus`: cool
<mako> going once
<mako> going twice
* mako pounds the gavel
<mako> thanks for coming everyone
<mako> two weeks from TODAY
<mako> how about UTC20
<\sh> yepp
<\sh> fine
<mako> anything later than that i probably won't make it
<Yann_> re.. did I miss something ? -_-
<\sh> Yann_: the end
<Yann_> :D
<mako> Yann2: not really, just the end of the meeting
<mako> Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 22 Sep 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 27 Sep 20:00 UTC: Community Council
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:mako] : Agendas: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingAgendas | Calendar: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Calendar | Logs: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ | 22 Sep 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 27 Sep 20:00 UTC: Community Council
<mako> whoops
* ajmitch should write that motu meeting time down somewhere
<Lathiat> A10
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-09-11
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu Handbook | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 13 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<HedgeMage> Hey, folks.  Who've we got?
<HedgeMage> hi sbalneav 
<sbalneav> Hello
<HedgeMage> I think it may be just you and me, unfortunately.
<HedgeMage> Have you taken on any of the Handbook Edgy Tasks, or are you just visiting? :)
<sbalneav> No handbook tasks, mainly LTSP thin client tasks :)
<HedgeMage> ahh, cool :)
<sbalneav> I was thinking when I got back from my trip with ogra, I might see if I could add some doco on thin client stuff
<sbalneav> hence my popping in.
<HedgeMage> Cool
<HedgeMage> hi pygi 
<HedgeMage> I guess this will be a super-short meeting due to attendance (or lack thereof)
<HedgeMage> I guess we've given up on our schedule and everything is just "ASAP"
<pygi> HedgeMage, right :-/
<HedgeMage> In the next couple of days I intend to go through and bring as many of the old chapters up to date as possible, in addition to doing the stuff I signed up for, and toss a commit at the main ubuntu doc repo people
<HedgeMage> If anyone can help with the bringing up-to-date of the old stuff, that will be the biggest help with the least work.
<sbalneav> There's a thin client section?
<pygi> HedgeMage, nobody is really willing to write ('cept me, you and mhz)
<HedgeMage> pygi: and Joyce.
<pygi> and joyce, ok :)
<sbalneav> If there's a thin client section, I can go through that this week.
<HedgeMage> Oh, and RobinSheapard... he and I are the only ones who've committed so far
<HedgeMage> sbalneav: that would be Wonderful!!!
<pygi> I dont commit...I dont have svn acc. neither I have time to commit
<sbalneav> Are we doing this on the wiki, or are there some docbooky type things needed?
<HedgeMage> sbalneav: we're doing it in docbook (I'll make you a svn login if you want as we have a temp repo until stuff with the ubuntu-doc repo is straightened)
<HedgeMage> sbalneav: if you want to do it in plaintext or whatever, I can mark it up if needed 
<sbalneav> Make me the svn account, and I can deal with it from there.  Is there a specific tool you use for editing?
<sbalneav> I might as well use what everyone else does.
<nixternal> HedgeMage: have you gotten a time-frame for the ubuntu-doc repo stuff to be setup for you yet?
<HedgeMage> nixternal: no, I've been offline for several weeks due to my husband having surgery.
<HedgeMage> nixternal: so I have no clue what's going on
<nixternal> hmm..there is an Edubuntu directory currently on the ubuntu-doc repo
<HedgeMage> nixternal: but we don't have anyone with commit privs.
<nixternal> browser-startpage, EdubuntuAbout, EdubuntuReleaseNotes, images, libs, menus, SchoolAdvocacy
<HedgeMage> None of that is Handbook though
<nixternal> HedgeMage: if you need stuff committed to the ubuntu-doc repos i can do it
<HedgeMage> nixternal: I know Edubuntu has stuff on there.
<nixternal> ahh ok
<nixternal> maybe just wait for mdke to come around and see how he wants to do it i guess?
<HedgeMage> nixternal: cool... I need to make one big patch out of all the stuff in the temp repo so far and that will be a good start
<nixternal> that will work
<nixternal> i know mdke is on holiday for a couple of weeks
<HedgeMage> nixternal: we've heard like 5 things from different docteam people... the only things that were consistant were to submit patches *then* ask for commit access.
<nixternal> if you make a patch, you can email it to me and the ubuntu-doc list -> nixternal@ubuntu.com
<HedgeMage> cool, thanks
<nixternal> ya, commit access goes through Canonical RTS
<HedgeMage> I'll get around to it ASAP... things are still crazy at home though, so it may take a day or three.
<nixternal> so, i think that mdke actually puts in for that
<nixternal> thats perfect
* HedgeMage nods
<nixternal> i am doing knot 3 release notes for Kubuntu, as well as another doc projects..so that is good ;)
<HedgeMage> Someone else had offered the same thing (committing patches for it) but I don't even remember who :(  I've just been so out of it with all the chaos here.
<nixternal> im sure glad i decided to see what the activity was going on in here ;)
<nixternal> hehe no problem...
<HedgeMage> :D Thanks!
<sbalneav> HedgeMage: Don't know if you caught it, do you use any particular editor/tool for the markup?  In the past, I've done all my docbook in vi, but I'll gladly use whatever the "standard" tool is.
<nixternal> sbalneav: any text editor will work
<HedgeMage> sbalneav: whatever your favorite editor is is fine
<nixternal> i know some use Bluefish
<sbalneav> ok, vi it is.
<nixternal> i use Kate with xml validation built in
<sbalneav> :)
<nixternal> the ubuntu-doc repos have a script (validate.sh) that will do xml validation for you as well...you want to make sure it validates priort to comitting
<sbalneav> As the newb here, where's the ubuntu-docs repo at?
<nixternal> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Repository
<nixternal> that provides you everything you need to get rockin' ;)
<HedgeMage> sbalneav: if you want I can set you up for the temp handbook repo (the idea is we'll submit changes to that repo as patches to the ubuntu-doc one so nothing gets missed)
<sbalneav> Sure.  I've used svn before, checking the wiki's now.
<HedgeMage> sbalneav: the repo is at http://svn.binaryredneck.net/handbook
* nixternal personally loves the "binary redneck" url ;)
<sbalneav> HedgeMage: OK, checked out.
<HedgeMage> cool
<HedgeMage> nixternal: thanks.  Not many coders/admins/geeks grow up on hog farms, so it seemed to fit :D
<nixternal> im a redneck at heart ;)
<nixternal> livin' in the big city
<HedgeMage> hehe
<sbalneav> .xml.old?  Edit to those? Or edit & rename to .xml? :)
<HedgeMage> edit and rename
<HedgeMage> :)
<HedgeMage> that's just so we know what's not been done yet
<sbalneav> NO
<sbalneav> NP, sorry
<HedgeMage> just make sure to use "svn mv" to rename so subversion knows what you did :)
<sbalneav> Do you want a move, or an add, to keep the .old around?
<HedgeMage> Move... if we have both I'll get confused :)
<HedgeMage> I have backups of all the .old files, and if we ever needed to, we can revert a file
<sbalneav> k, will do.
<HedgeMage> You rock :)
<HedgeMage> Also, this is the wiki page with various handbook info: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuHandbook
<HedgeMage> (just in case you need it)
<HedgeMage> and don't forget to add yourself to the contributors' list :D
<sbalneav> I'm actually one of the developers for LTSP, and we've spent a lot of time working with ogra on the implementation on edgy, so hopefully, you'll see the section grow quite a bit :)
<HedgeMage> Cool :D
<HedgeMage> Good meeting, folks.  I'm out of here for the moment, I have to check on the gimp and get the muchkin donw to nap
* HedgeMage waves
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-09-12
<nictuku> hi, I need to give the ownership of #ubuntu-br to someone else, and I wanted to know what you think is the best to do. is this a fine place to discuss that?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 13 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<nictuku> I would either give licio the ownership, or to someone that already manages other channels
<HedgeMage> nictuku: Check with Seveas... he's the best person for that sort of info
<Burgwork> nictuku, -locoteams is a good place
<nictuku> thank you
<Seveas> nictuku, /msg chanserv set #ubuntu-br contact licio
<Seveas> and give him the channel password
<Seveas> that's all 
<Hawkwind> Simple as that :P
<nictuku> well, I know *how* to
<nictuku> the brazilian locoteam has collapsed in disputes, and I don't want to make that worse. It would be nice if I we found a 'neutral' way out.
<licio> hot potato in my hands
<licio> :P
<Burgwork> nictuku, the best way is simply not say anything and let it cool down
<nictuku> Burgwork, I've done that for months, and now things are frozen in the community
<Burgwork> hmm
<Burgwork> shall we move into -locoteams?
<nictuku> hey, jono = jsgotangco ?
<jsgotangco> hell no
<jsgotangco> ;)
<jsgotangco> jono is probably asleep now
<nictuku> blame tab completion
<nictuku> hehe /nickserv info j<tab>
<brendonjt> !schedual auckland
<brendonjt> !scheduale auckland
<brendonjt> !schedule auckland
<Hawkwind> Try @schedule
<brendonjt> @schedule auckland
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Pacific/Auckland: 13 Sep 08:00: Technical Board | 14 Sep 08:00: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 19:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 20 Sep 00:00: Community Council | 21 Sep 00:00: Edubuntu | 22 Sep 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<PWill> http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ohio_Linux_Fest_2006
<GNAM> @schedule rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 12 Sep 22:00: Technical Board | 13 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 13 Sep 06:00: Technical Board | 14 Sep 06:00: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 22:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 22 Sep 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<Hobbsee> hmmm.
<zul> @schedule montreal
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 12 Sep 16:00: Technical Board | 13 Sep 16:00: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 03:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 08:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 08:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 11:00: Ubuntu Development Team
<zul> sweeet..
<Hobbsee> zul: i envy you.  except for that dev team meeting time.
<zul> yeah those meetings are fun
<Hobbsee> lol
<zul> especailly im zombie the next day
<Hobbsee> hehe.  i refuse to do meetings like that :P
<Fujitsu> I managed to catch an 8am CC meeting, that wasn't too bad.
<Hobbsee> true
* simira waves from Oslo Ubuntu installfest
<dholbach> simira: ROCK ON!
<dholbach> simira: how's it going?
<simira> dholbach: not too bad. I just don't know enough to help many :p
<simira> but Tollef is
<simira> dholbach: did you get the link to my dog's website? We visited yesterday
<dholbach> simira: send it again!
<simira> http://odin.err.no
<dholbach> haha :)
<dholbach> HOW! CUTE! :)
<simira> :)
<simira> he'll get cuter in a couple of weeks 
<dholbach> sure :-)
<simira> you saw the link to the other pics as well?
<mvo_> simira: very cute picture!
<dholbach> how sweet
* mvo_ loves cats
<mvo_> simira: is update-manager working better for you recently btw?
<simira> mvo_: I must admit I have been lazy (or was it busy) lately... not tested much. But it seems to work mostly, I am just a bit annoyed by it not wanting to install everything
<mvo_> simira: it should be better about this now and give you (at least) the option to do this
<simira> mvo_: I'll do a knot test after release on Thursday and give you some feedback then
<simira> and I love both dogs and cats :)
<mvo_> simira: thanks! make sure you update the system after installing knot, because some recent fixed did not made it into knot for the main-freeze
* mvo_ love cats a bit more .)
<simira> mvo_: I update almost every day, normally.
<imbrandon> @schedule us/chicago
<imbrandon> @schedule us/central
<Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Central: 12 Sep 15:00: Technical Board | 13 Sep 15:00: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 07:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 07:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<mdz> good evening
<zul> afternoon
<ajmitch> morning
<mdz> good UTEvening
<mdz> imbrandon: are you here?
<mjg59> mdz: I don't quite make it 20:00 UTC yet
<mdz> mjg59: about 1 minute 20 away by my clock
<mdz> reviewing the applicant lists, it seems we have imbrandon for -core-dev and thelinuxfr for -dev
<mdz> but I don't think either is present
<mjg59> Give them a few minutes?
<mjg59> I don't think we've got any other business
<mdz> is there anyone present who is here to apply for development team membership?
<mdz> mjg59: I missed the previous meeting due to holidays; assuming one happened, anything I should know about?
<mjg59> mdz: Nope
<mdz> the agenda is empty, so I'm going to idle and continue with other work, but be nearby for the next hour or so in case something appears.  please nudge me if so
<mdz> Keybuk and sabdfl are both otherwise engaged, for the record
<imbrandon> mdz sorry
<imbrandon> i am late
<mdz> imbrandon: no worries
<imbrandon> soo am i up now ?
<mdz> imbrandon: Yes. Would you like to tell us about your application for -core-dev?
<imbrandon> sure ...
<mdz> mjg59: (ping in case you decided to idle as well)
<mjg59> mdz: Here
<imbrandon> oh wow , ok my klipper is not letting me paste so i will do this by hand
<imbrandon> sorry , wiki with full explanation at http://wiki.kubuntu.org/imbrandon
<imbrandon> and i have been working as a MOTU and member of the community for a while now and concentrate on
<imbrandon> the "gadgets" of ubuntu like ipods and digital cameras making sure they work well OOTB as much as possible
<mdz> imbrandon: according to Launchpad, you've been a member of ubuntu-dev for a bit over one month now.  is that correct?
<imbrandon> yea, just over a month or so
<imbrandon> i brought Riddell tonio and raphink ( and crimsun ) to cheer for me too
<imbrandon> ( if they made it )
<imbrandon> they all work with me daily
<mdz> imbrandon: but you've been doing packaging work for longer than that?  I see you maintain at least one package in Debian as well
<mdz> raphink is here at least
<raphink> sorry to come only now
<Nafallo> crimsun did just speak on #launchpad.
<imbrandon> yes sir i package apt-mirror in debian
<imbrandon> and manitain it
<imbrandon> and try to work with debian as much as possible ( but we are ahead on most things versiuon wise in KDE )
<imbrandon> but hopefully that wont be that way for long
<mdz> are you a DD, or are your Debian uploads sponsored by someone (if so, who?)
<mdz> and who generally sponsors your Ubuntu uploads?
<mdz> (to main)
<imbrandon> anibal is my DD sponsor ( plus i'm interviewing for a company atm too that a few DD's work at that also handle KDE )
<imbrandon> Riddell, and tonino do 90%  of my uploads to main
<imbrandon> i mostly work on amarok and kubuntu default settings
<imbrandon> but i have been known to touch all of kde when needed
<imbrandon> ( oir ubuntu for that matter )
<mjg59> raphink: So how have you found working with imbrandon?
<imbrandon> i work very closely with the konversation and amarok teams upstream also
<raphink> mjg59: he's been doing great work
<mjg59> raphink: What areas have you been working with him on?
<raphink> I can tell :)
<raphink> tonio is not here but he told me lately that he's very happy with imbrandon
<raphink> esp. as we are not so numerous on Kubuntu lately
<raphink> mjg59: packaging mostly I think
<raphink> not recently, but I've looked at his packages in the past and they were very good
<imbrandon> heh yea our numbers are small but we get the job done
<mdz> imbrandon: I've noticed that quite a few of your uploads also incorporate changes from other people.  what tools are you using to coordinate this work?
<imbrandon> i also tend to sponsor a few uploads too and am active on ubunutu-universe-sponsors
<mdz> is there a revision control repository for, e.g. amarok?
<imbrandon> mdz yes and no , we do most of our colab directly on IRC and there is a invite only amarok developers list i participte in
<imbrandon> ( riddell and hobbsee are both members too )
<imbrandon> iirc
<mdz> imbrandon: so they email patches to you and you apply them to the package?
<imbrandon> as for mergin mostly bzr and svn
<imbrandon> in the case of amarok yes, with konversation its all svn
<mdz> imbrandon: it's interesting that the amarok list is invite-only.  do you feel that works well for them?
<imbrandon> well its mostly for spam reasons i think ( and so it dosent turn into a support list ) but anyone can get invited if they ask
<imbrandon> sanely in the -dev chan
<imbrandon> and the packagers tend to get the patches and version before the general public so we can have it ready for the distro on release day also
<imbrandon> ( konversation and other kde projects also do this )
<mdz> imbrandon: how does limiting subscription (as opposed to posting) prevent spam?
<imbrandon> well its a google list so limiting sub/posting is tied togather afaik
<imbrandon> and the archives are open to the public also
<imbrandon> so its not totaly closed , just limited i would say
<mdz> imbrandon: I've never seen spam from a subscriber of a list; usually it's restricting posts to subscribers only which helps prevent spam
<mdz> which is orthogonal to restricting subscription
<imbrandon> right , i was totaly speculating on the reasons , i would probably have to poke eean or marke to find out /exactly/ why
<imbrandon> tbh
<imbrandon> ( amarok list admins and devlopers _
<imbrandon> )
<mdz> just curious
<mdz> what's your experience with the launchpad bug tracker?  do you feel that it works well?
<imbrandon> heh /me wishes riddell would poke in soon
<imbrandon> yea i think it works exceptionaly well compared to say bugs.kde.org
<imbrandon> although the kde BTS is getting better
<imbrandon> and the debian BTS is hard to use for non-debian users and new members
<imbrandon> imho but still useable
<imbrandon> but LP far outwieghs that plus
<mdz> what do you do with bugs which are reported to Ubuntu, but are not specific to Ubuntu and affect KDE upstream as well?
<imbrandon> the ability to use bzr and other tools directly from it is nice
<imbrandon> when i can, most of the time i stay within the kubuntu relm but track them upstream also when needed / warented
<imbrandon> and try to bring it to the attn of the right developers on irc upstream if i know them
<mdz> are you using bzr for Ubuntu development today?  I'm interested to know if it's working well for you
<imbrandon> one thing i have noticed about LP though that makes it hard but is beeing worked on iirc is the ability to mark as fixed in a release but wontfix etc in another release ( eg dapper or edgy )
<imbrandon> yes i use bzr to track apt-mirror ( as there is no upstream rcs so me and the only orther developer oped to just use LP bzr )
<imbrandon> and also for konversation ( thats synced with svn )
<mdz> imbrandon: can you show me that branch in LP? it doesn't seem to be registered to your LP account yet
<imbrandon> that me and mez both activly keep tabs on
<imbrandon> sure there should be an apt-mirror product with that as the only branch
<imbrandon> same for konversation
<mdz> there it is
<imbrandon> also Riddell keeps the kubuntu-website in bzr so we can all branch from it and make sugestions as needed with code patches 
<mdz> https://launchpad.net/products/apt-mirror/+branches
<imbrandon> ( i just learned that today so i will be using that more )
<imbrandon> yes sorry i'm at a console that dosent ahve a www browser atm ( have to do this all from memory )
<mdz> so it's stored on the supermirror under ubuntu-dev, meaning that any member of ubuntu-dev can commit to it.  do others commit directly to it?  has that worked well for apt-mirror?
<imbrandon> its worked very well for apt-mirror and its still fairly new so no other developers have shown intrest in it 
<imbrandon> but
<imbrandon> they are welcomed to ;)
<imbrandon> but it keeps me and the other developer thats not in the ubuntu community in sync
<mdz> imbrandon: I see you're a member of the backporters team and the bugsquad team. are you active on either of those?
<imbrandon> very active in backports ( infact ask kamoin i bug him regularly ) and active in ubuntu-sponsors
<imbrandon> as far as bugsquad i do alot of lp bug work and squishing and bugdays but dont much
<imbrandon> partisipate int he irc much of -bugsquad
<imbrandon> just becouse of time constraints mostly
<imbrandon> ubuntu-universe-sponsors
<imbrandon> *
<imbrandon> tbh i think at time me and crimsun are the only ones working on ubuntu-*-sponsors heheh but he is lightning fast ;)
<imbrandon> s/time/times
<imbrandon> crimsun, just spoke up in -motu , i cant paste from there if someone would please do the honors ;)
<imbrandon> ( sorry i'm on a dead irssi link atm )
<mdz> I wasn't in #ubuntu-motu at the moment; crimsun is in this channel though if he has something to say
<Lure> [22:34]  <crimsun> sorry, just got called away to a meeting. If imbrandon needs my backing for TB, I've worked with him on various packages (konversation and apt-mirror come to mind immediately), and he has my +1.
<imbrandon> thanks lure
<mdz> imbrandon: what would you say are your reasons for wanting to join -core-dev? what difference would it make in the work that you currently do?
<imbrandon> well i think i have alot to contribute and i do that now with alot of work in main ( amarok and konversation )
<imbrandon> it would help our workflow but thats not the "main" reason
<imbrandon> just that i know i can handle it , love to do it, and ....
<mdz> what is the main reason?
<imbrandon> kubuntu needs the love ;)
<imbrandon> serouisly , its something i like to do and alot of my work so far has been main type work
<mdz> it's unusual to join the core team after such a short time as a member of the development team as a whole
<imbrandon> well some of that was i joined -motu late , and then wanted to show that i could do main work well
<imbrandon> as even before i was motu i was active in alot of this
<mdz> -core-dev isn't simply about the main component, but about being a consistent, long term contributor, closely involved with the project, and taking responsibility for the quality of the distribution
<imbrandon> mdz definately , and i ( myself and others i work with daily ) think i show and do that imho
<imbrandon> i definately keep the quality high and work on kubuntu and floss in generall daily ( even as a JOB heh )
<mdz> imbrandon: we're now in feature freeze and will release a beta of Edgy quite soon.  what will you do differently over the next few weeks leading up to the release?
<imbrandon> and feel i can adhear to high standards i and everyone expects fof ubuntu
<imbrandon> mostly makeing sure the polish and all the "little" touches are put into k-d-s ( outlined more clearly on my wiki as to exacty changes )
<bddebian> Except for spelling apparently ;-P
<mdz> (the beta, that is)
<imbrandon> bddebian, yea i'm not at my normal computer heh
<bddebian> I'm joking, sorry :)
<imbrandon> mdz, that and we keep a list of "critical:" pre release bugs
<imbrandon> that i work to keep down top
<imbrandon> too*
<mdz> imbrandon: what about the mechanics of what you do, such as uploading packages? how will that change?
<imbrandon> well i wouldent have to go though the sponsor routine daily if thats what you are asking 
<imbrandon> right now my workflow go's
<imbrandon> like this .... hehe
<mdz> imbrandon: I mean in relation to the release
<imbrandon> ok well in relation to release 
<imbrandon> the workflow is concentrated on showstopers and major bugs in the desktop
<imbrandon> instead of "new crack" in kde
<imbrandon> for lack of a better word, making sure we have all major bugs from upstream closed and any in our kds packages that need addressing
<imbrandon> to put that final touch on the release
<imbrandon> kds == kubuntu-default-settings
<mdz> what I'm trying to get at is what you will consider when you make a decision about changing something in the distribution, and how that will change as we approach release
<mdz> does that make sense?
<imbrandon> ohhh 99% of our clab is done via kubuntu meeting and in kubnutu-devel with riddell tonio crimsun 
<mdz> it's critically important for a core developer to be aware of the release preparation process and bear it in mind when making uploads
<imbrandon> and quite a few other active members 
<imbrandon> mdz, exactly i pay close attn to that
<imbrandon> infact just this moring when the ubntu-dev topic changed i made the
<mdz> for example, an announcement went out today regarding the upcoming knot release.  what would you do differently now, compared to before that announcement went out?
<imbrandon> change in k-devel to make sure everyone saw it also
<mdz> in terms of your uploads
<imbrandon> well i try to stay very current with the happening in both -devel channels and the ML and as far as uploads naturaly in the freeze it gets cleared by riddell or other relevant person ( you ?)
<imbrandon> and
<imbrandon> non freeze for knot e.g now leading to release "the beta" only bug fixes and everything is triple checked and 
<imbrandon> revied by someone else if its code i'm not familiar with
<imbrandon> reviewed*
<imbrandon> but i tend to stick with things i know when it comes to crunch time
<mdz> imbrandon: so to use an example, one week ago you uploaded amarok 2:1.4.3-0ubuntu1.  would you make that same upload today?  why or why not?
<imbrandon> that one i would becouse it was critical bugfixes to 1.4.2 ( showstopers ) thus the fast release from 1.4.2
<imbrandon> and ONLY bugfixes
<imbrandon> if it hadent been then
<imbrandon> i would have stiped out the relvant patches and only applied those to 1.4.2 and if it was today 
<imbrandon> i would do the same 
<imbrandon> ( the patches )
<mdz> in tollef's announcement, as with other milestone freezes, he said that all uploads to main required approval from the release team
<mdz> so it would not be appropriate to make that same upload now
<imbrandon> yes and that was given by kamoin iirc
<imbrandon> ( and i think noted in the changelog )
<imbrandon> if not its definately on LP ( i do all uvfe in LP for that reason )
<mdz> it wasn't in the changelog, but that would have been an exception to the upstream version freeze
<imbrandon> yes that was my mistake not to include it in the changelog but it is documented on LP
<imbrandon> as a bug against amarok with the title uvf in it
<mdz> my point is that even if it had been granted a UVF exception yesterday, if you were preparing an upload today, it shouldn't be uploaded yet due to the milestone freeze. make sense?
<imbrandon> say 1.4.4 comes out tomarrow ( and knot freeze is over ) that will be stripped to patchess against 1.4.3 for bug fixes only
<Nafallo> except approval from Tollef that is... :-)
<imbrandon> ahh right ,yea no uploads for the knot , i unerstand that i guess i missed your question
<imbrandon> or that part of
<imbrandon> so if i was to do it litterly TODAY yes i would prepar it and hold off till 48hours or so when the kknot milstone is released
<imbrandon> ( and have done so in the past , iirc 1.4.2 came out in the knot 2 freeze )
<mdz> right, I was literally asking whether you would do the same thing *today*, not whether your upload last week was OK :-)
<imbrandon> ahh ok , sorry i missed that part
<mdz> I have no further questions. mjg59?
<imbrandon> yes i understand the milstone freezes though , as i said i was the one that added it to the k-devel topic so everyone would note it this morning
<imbrandon> ;)
<imbrandon> sorry for not being clear
<mdz> thanks for your patience in this discussion, I know it's been long
<mjg59> imbrandon: Are you happy with being able to upload stuff that could break everyone's systems?
<imbrandon> no problem at all, thanks for letting me be a bit late ;)
<imbrandon> mjg59, yup as i'm confident that i can NOT break everyones system heh
<mdz> but I'm sure you understand that this is a great responsibility and it's important that we establish whether you understand that
<imbrandon> we're all human but i do tend to check very well and do ask for opinions when its code i'm not familiar with
<imbrandon> definately
<mdz> mjg59: I'm ready for a vote when you are
<Lure> I can say that imbrandon typically publish his work on his server for review, particularly for larger changes (kdebase...) so I can say he is very conservative in this part
<mjg59> mdz: Sure, go head
<mjg59> Sorry, my connection is becoming alarmingly laggy
<mdz> +1 from me.  please remember to take this responsibliity very seriously, and be conservative with regard to the release process.  when in doubt, ask.  even if you don't doubt, asking for confirmation never hurts!
<mjg59> I'm inclined to go with +1, for working closely with upstream and seeming to have a good sense of the responsibilities
<imbrandon> ;)
<imbrandon> mdz, definately
<mdz> imbrandon: congratulations and welcome
<imbrandon> thansk guys ;)
<Lure> imbrandon: congrats and great to have you in core-dev
<imbrandon> ( now to get on my normal box ) heh
<ogra> congrats imbrandon !
<imbrandon> yay \0/
<pitti> imbrandon: welcome!
<mdz> is there any other business for the TB tonight?
<imbrandon> heya pitti thanks
<Nafallo> imbrandon: congratulations :-)
<rodarvus> imbrandon, congratulations!
<LaserJock> congrats imbrandon 
<imbrandon> ok sorry to run, i have to go get on my "real" system , this console is killing me
<LaserJock> imbrandon: party at my place? ;-)
<imbrandon> bb in 5 min
<imbrandon> LaserJock, ypu yup
* imbrandon is a new dad too ;) w00t
<mdz> imbrandon: double congrats then
<pitti> imbrandon: wow, congrats again
<ogra> imbrandon, nice :)
<imbrandon> hehe the postr SHOULD still be on planet , but thanks ;)
<mdz> last call for TB business
<Nafallo> imbrandon: congrats, I'm sure you will be up many nights now :-P
<imbrandon> ok <detached> back in a sec
<rodarvus> imbrandon: heh, nice. congratulations on that too :)
<pitti> mdz: has there been any word on the usplash status?
<mdz> pitti: more specifically?
<pitti> mdz: i. e. will we go with the SVGA patch or revert to VGA?
<mjg59> kamion has it working with framebuffer
<mdz> as far as I'm aware, the only outstanding issue is powerpc
<mdz> and I saw an upload from colin which I thought might address that
<pitti> well, and amd64+nvidia
<mjg59> There's a reversion on amd64 systems with nvidia hardware
<ogra> right, he said it was fixed for him
<mjg59> I'm confident that's repairable, and if not we can fall back for that specific case
<mdz> I'm confident we should push ahead with it then
<pitti> ok, thanks for the heads-up!
<pitti> glad to see that it doesn't need to be reverted completely
<pitti> (and eager to see it actually working :-P)
<mdz> if there's a bug report open about the nvidia issue, I'd appreciate a subscription.  if not, there should be one
* pitti will check
<mdz> TB adjourned, thanks everyone
<slomo> pitti, mdz: it works fine for me on ppc too with the latest upload
* ogra hasbt tested yet, but will tonight/tomorrow for the knot tests
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-09-13
<sdfsaedcjhm> hi
<sdfsaedcjhm> someone here?
<dholbach> @now gmt
<dholbach> @schedule berlin
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 13 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 22:00: Technical Board
<dholbach> @schedule gmt
<dholbach> hmhmhmmhmh
<Fujitsu> UTC, perhaps?
<Fujitsu> @now utc
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 13 2006, 10:34:51 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 9 hours 25 minutes
<Fujitsu> GMT is old!
<dholbach> i know it is - somebody referred to a gmt time
<jono> hi all
<highvoltage> hi jono 
<jono> hey highvoltage 
<jono> does this chan grab its event details from the fridge calendar?
<highvoltage> depends on your definition of grab
<highvoltage> the bot does
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 13 Sep 20:00: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 07:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 12:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 20:00: Technical Board
<highvoltage> ^^^ that comes from the fridge
<jono> right
<jono> so to add an event, I add it to the fridge
<highvoltage> ooh, ok, seems that the topic is also set by ubotu
<highvoltage> yes, that's the way to go
<jono> ok cool
<jono> if only the fridge guys were alive right now :P
<highvoltage> :)
<highvoltage> they are frozen like dr evil
<ogra> just mail fridge-devel
<Hobbsee> jono: just email fridge-devel - they add it pretty quickly
<jono> well, I am a fridge editor, I just want someone else to confirm its OK to include :)
<Hobbsee> hehe
<Hobbsee> yeah
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: LoCo | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<CyberKing> LoCo team meeting at 15:00?
<CyberKing> it should be 14:00
<Seveas> yeah
<CyberKing> ping jono
<Seveas> jono, !
<jono> CyberKing, pong
<jono> yeah its 2pm UTC
<jono> I updated the time, just needs refreshing
<CyberKing> jono: oh ok :)
<Seveas> @topic
<Seveas> hmm, fridge still says 15:00
<Seveas> (@topic forces a refresh)
<Seveas> odd
<Seveas> @reload Webcal
<Seveas> jono, the website says the correct time, the iCal feed not
<jono> Seveas, ahhh
<Seveas> DTSTART;VALUE=DATE-TIME:20060918T150000Z
<Seveas> DTEND;VALUE=DATE-TIME:20060918T160000Z
<CyberKing> can't we edit the topic manually?
<Seveas> we can
<Seveas> but ubugtu will hate you and restore it
<Seveas> ;)
<CyberKing> oh
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Seveas] : moo
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: LoCo | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<CyberKing> lol
<Seveas> see =)
<CyberKing> u programmed Ubugtu?
<Seveas> yes
<CyberKing> cool
<dholbach> he programs thing to hate people
<CyberKing> oh really?
<Seveas> jono, the ical feed is still bad, now says noon UTC
<Seveas> DTSTART;VALUE=DATE-TIME:20060919T120000Z
<Seveas> DTEND;VALUE=DATE-TIME:20060919T140000Z
<Seveas> on the 19th 
<jono> Seveas, it must be broken
<Seveas> I think so
<jono> any idea who maintains it ?
<Seveas> ah, wait, I looked at the wrong event
<Seveas> it's still wrong, though
<jono> :(
<Seveas> I though the fridge software maintained the feed?
<Seveas> so you should slap some fridge editors
<jono> I will indeed slap
<Seveas> @now Tehran
<Ubugtu> Current time in Asia/Tehran: September 13 2006, 19:36:44 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 4 hours 53 minutes
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 14:00 UTC: LoCo | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<highvoltage> @schedule johannesburg
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Africa/Johannesburg: 13 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 14 Sep 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 16:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 14:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Sep 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 14:00 UTC: LoCo | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team
<pips1_> hi cbx33 and AliasVegas
<cbx33> hi pips1_ 
<pygi> Hello everyone ^_^
<sharkybaby> hello
<RichEd> hello
<pips1_> hi everybody
<AliasVegas> Hi pips1_
<cbx33> evenin all
<cbx33> boo ogra 
<highvoltage> hi!
<ogra> bee
<pips1_> cbx33 ?
<cbx33> pips1_, what ?
<cbx33> I was trying to scare ogra ;)
<pips1_> boo?
<pips1_> :)
<ogra> i'm to happy to get scared by anything :)
<sharkybaby> :)
<pygi> ogra, nice ^_^
<cbx33> oversized CD images ?
<ogra> nope
<highvoltage> last I heard was 698MB? :)
<ogra> all fine
<ogra> lots of bugs
<ogra> but the install works
<cbx33> oh dear
<cbx33> excellent
<cbx33> I'm just installing now
<ogra> usplash looks funny .. -35 didnt make it on the CD it seems
<cbx33> :(
<LaserJock> ogra: will we need to do some trimming before final for size?
<cbx33> what about the other artwork?
<ogra> it has the wrong res but the progress bar sits at the right place
<cbx33> I'm looking forward to see what it looks like
<cbx33> LaserJock, !!!!
<LaserJock> what
<cbx33> hi dude !
<LaserJock> what did I do?
<LaserJock> oh
<ogra> well, the background is moved 1/3 down and 1/3 to the right
<cbx33> just saying an enthsiastic Hi!
<cbx33> oh
<ogra> is RichEd here ?
<LaserJock> ok, I think I was more scared then ogra
<RichEd> yep
<ogra> and rodarvus ? 
<ogra> yeah, that was my worst day today
* RichEd has droopy eyes, but mostly open ... sort of
<cbx33> ogra, did you get everything done
<ogra> i have to get up in 5h for travelling and didnt even remotely belive i could get knot3 done 
* cbx33 pinches RichEd 
<ogra> ok
<ogra> TECH UPDATE  !!!
<cbx33> must be a biggie
* highvoltage gives ogra pat on back
<ogra> we have something that looks like knot 3 :)
<cbx33> its in capitols
<sbalneav> Hello hello
<ogra> there are plenty of bugs in it but with patiency it installs
<ogra> i'll set up a known issues page and add it to the channel topic (as usual)
<ogra> some things dont work at all, some are easily solveable ...
<cbx33> cool
<ogra> nothing that makes me anxious for release
<cbx33> ;)
<ogra> for some of the ltsp bugs i'll have the best ppl around me the next days :)
<cbx33> you done good ogra my man
<ogra> sbalneav, i'd like to look into the lp_server and the mknbi issues ... and like to test the floppy stuff with you the next days
<ogra> hesy rodarvus 
<ogra> *hey too
<RichEd> ogra: lets hope they "release" your laptop from the baggage hold for the hack-fest
<ogra> as long as i get it back its all fine ... i'll do a complete /home backup tonight before i go to bed
<sbalneav> ogra: I'm here sitting in LTSP headquarters right now :)
<cbx33> RichEd, don't even joke
<ogra> sbalneav, me too in 24h ;)
<sbalneav> I should apply for Edubuntu status one of these days :)
<pygi> sbalneav, you do understand we have to talk about iscsi, right? :)
<ogra> sbalneav, you already applied for edubuntu-member if i saw that right
<sbalneav> I've volunteered with HedgeMage to help bring the LTSP section of the Handbook up to date.
* highvoltage saw that too
<cbx33> sbalneav, nice ;)
<highvoltage> he just didn't add his name to EdubuntuMeetingAgnda yet
<LaserJock> tsk tsk
<ogra> so its just a matter of making a wikipage and adding your contributions ... then the next EC meeting can approve you
<rodarvus> hi there
<sbalneav> Did I?  I can't remember.
<highvoltage> hi rodarvus 
<sbalneav> pygi: We'll have a chance over the next few days.  Ogra will be here with me, we can be in irc and chat.
<ogra> sbalneav, and be sure, you have my vote already ;)
<cbx33> If I could vote I would
<LaserJock> ogra: did you fix scp deps so edubuntu-desktop doesn't install ltsp-server? :-)
* cbx33 will done his cheerleading outfit
* highvoltage 's too
<ogra> sbalneav, i have to cncentrate on edgy ... lets rather see that pygi comes to mountain view ;)
* LaserJock 's too
* RichEd lost my connection at the end of the last meeting so I still need to confirm all of what I need to do as well re edubuntu-member.
<sbalneav> Ah, good plan.
<RichEd> I will chat to highvoltage tomorrow.
<ogra> RichEd, a wikipage that lists your contributions
<ogra> thast about all
<RichEd> okay
<cbx33> what about the 3 liner?
<cbx33> ;)
<ogra> ok, thats all from my tech side, i feel pretty exhausted but happy ... i didnt belive in knot 3 anymore as i said ...
<LaserJock> \o/ for Knot 3
<cbx33> ;)
<ogra> if someone else likes to lead the rest of the meeting i could do the wikipage for known issues ... in fact i'll just add it to the testing page
<cbx33> ogra, well done dude
<highvoltage> \/
<sbalneav> Hey, am I still supposed to get the test pattern on bootup?  I keep seeing updates to usplash-artwork, but nothing ever changes?
<RichEd> as usual, a round of applause for Oliver and his untiring dedication.
<highvoltage> eek, where's my head
* ogra still hasnt had time to pack his bags
<LaserJock> highvoltage: you were so excited you lost it
* RichEd sees that highvoltage has his legs up in the air ;)
<ogra> sbalneav, edubuntu-artwork -35 should fix that 
<LaserJock> \o/
<LaserJock>  /\
<cbx33> hehe
<highvoltage> hiehie
<sharkybaby> nice man, man hehe
* RichEd will take over from oliver so he can pack and wiki ... in that order
<cbx33> Whos taking the lead then?
<cbx33> heheh
<sbalneav> :D\-<
<sbalneav> :D|-<
<sbalneav> :D/-<
<RichEd> just loading the agenda
* sbalneav dances too
* highvoltage does the robot
<sharkybaby> heheh
<cbx33> I'm sensing excitement in the air
* LaserJock runs
<cbx33> oh, for those of you who don;t know ;) - SCP is now in main
<highvoltage> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/EdubuntuMeetingAgenda#preview
<highvoltage> documentation next?
<highvoltage> cbx33: good job!
<RichEd> thanks ... wiki is slow for me tonight
<LaserJock> cbx33: and is making me not update edubuntu-desktop ;/
<highvoltage> LaserJock: and dynamic menu's is in universe now, right?
<RichEd> -- documentation ---
<cbx33> sorry LaserJock 
<LaserJock> highvoltage: it's in NEW and Keybuck said he is working on NEW today
<RichEd> who's got some doc news ?
<cbx33> I'll be writing some docs for SCP and pessulus
<highvoltage> LaserJock: great
<cbx33> for the handbook
<pips1_> cbx33: wow, congrats
<cbx33> ty
<highvoltage> cbx33: I think you should help pips1_ get it on the website soon, so that we can point users there when the software is released
<rodarvus> LaserJock, in theory, tomorrow is the ubuntu-archive day for keybuk
<cbx33> highvoltage, yeh that's cool
<cbx33> my account shuiod still be active
<pips1_> yep
<LaserJock> rodarvus: he said he was doing it, *shrug*
<rodarvus> LaserJock, yeah, thats cool :)
<rodarvus> its just that Keybuk and Kamion decided to have a specific day they would give *more* attention to ubuntu-archive issues (thursday and friday, I think)
<rodarvus> but they are free to do it on any other time, obviously :)
<RichEd> I had a documenation issue raised this past week ... In a discussion with an admin of an icafe using Edubuntu for his client workstations using LTSP. Would it make sense to produce a Handbook for that specific enviroment as well as a school one, or is the doc general enough for both ?
<pygi> RichEd, we can adapt that use case for handbook perhaps, as one topic
<RichEd> highvoltage: comments ? you know both environments well ?
<cbx33> RichEd, personally I think the general should be sufficient
<cbx33> pygi, good idea
<RichEd> Put it this way, I was going to volunteer him to make the suggested changed for us :)
<cbx33> you could have a short section on some case studies
<highvoltage> RichEd: honestly, I don't know. there would be a lot of overlap
<RichEd> *changes
<RichEd> Perhaps an appendix for specific use cases ? Just thinking aloud.
<highvoltage> on the other side, running an internet cafe is very much different than running a lba t a school, so defferent cookbooks from that perspective sounds feasible
<cbx33> highvoltage, do you still have access to the website?
<highvoltage> cbx33: yep
<cbx33> can you change my password
<cbx33> ;)
<cbx33> pm me?
<highvoltage> cbx33: ok
<RichEd> Not an urgent issue, but it will come up later when we dig more into the Education Solution Space ... I'll file it away until then.
<pips1_> who is doing documentation from the present ppl?
<highvoltage> RichEd: in Ubuntu/Edubuntu, those descisions are usually made by the people who are actually going to do the documentation
<cbx33> RichEd, is this a good place to come up with what I was talking to you about the other day....
<cbx33> project tracking
<RichEd> Okay cbx33 : jump in ...
<cbx33> I was wondering guys
<highvoltage> RichEd: so I think your options are (1) decide how it needs to be done and lead it, or (2) put it out there and let a group form that wil do the work, and decide how they want to do it
<cbx33> generally we seem to be pretty good in knowing what's happening where
<RichEd> highvoltage: I'll bring it up as an example later, and then move it to the next Handbook Meeting.
<highvoltage> yeah, would be cool i jono was here
<highvoltage> *if
<cbx33> but what are peoples opinions on introducing some kind of web based project management system, that is a little more finer grained than LP
<RichEd> (you'll see where it fits in when we get to solution views)
<cbx33> to allow creating of projects and tasks inside those projets, and assigning those takss to people
<highvoltage> ok
<cbx33> I've been suing it at work for organising myself and my technician
<pips1_> cbx33: project management tools aren't very popular with volunteers, generally... 
<cbx33> and it seems to have doubled my productivity
<cbx33> it was merely a suggestion
<cbx33> ;)
<LaserJock> heh, if it worked I'd volunteer to use it ;-)
<RichEd> cbx33: perhaps it makes sense to try it out on a project you are involved in, where other involved people are agreed. If they see benefit, it will be accepted. If not htye will spit it out ?
<RichEd> *they
<cbx33> RichEd, sure
<cbx33> LaserJock, gisomount v2?
<cbx33> ;)
<RichEd> cbx33: Perhaps you and will and I can use it on the education advocacy exercise ?
<cbx33> RichEd, a great suggestion
<rodarvus> cbx33, such a tool could work, but don't expect volunteers to maintain it up to date
<cbx33> I'll set it up soon
<cbx33> rodarvus, ok
<rodarvus> in other words, someone would need to babysit this tool a lot
<LaserJock> I don't really get what "it" is
<pips1_> cbx33, I don't think it's a bad idea... were you thinking about some sort of issue tracker only, or also calendaring...?
<cbx33> LaserJock, google for dotproject
<RichEd> Agreed then ... make it available, not compulsory. See if it gains acceptance ?
<rodarvus> cbx33, unless you have any other idea, I suggest you to take a look at trac and dotproject
<cbx33> rodarvus, i suggested dotproject
<rodarvus> dotproject might be too heavyweight, though
<cbx33> it rawks
<cbx33> you think?
<rodarvus> for volunteer work, yes
<RichEd> Even if the tool gets too heavy, some of the principles may stick and be adopted into wiki processes.
<cbx33> but you can disable modules
<rodarvus> RichEd, right, indeed
<RichEd> So it may be a useful exercise to evaluate on a small and voluntary scale.
<rodarvus> but again, I think this is an excellent initiative
<cbx33> I'll setup a dotproject
<rodarvus> cbx33, go for it, I believe it can be great for edubuntu
<cbx33> ;)
<LaserJock> yeah, for an LP project I've been working on we've needed something like this
<RichEd> As a final coment, we may soon see more than just #edubuntu as a support channel for education, some differentiation may haqppen soon.
<cbx33> RichEd, ?
<cbx33> care to elaborate?
<RichEd> And as we split into channels, we may need more tracking to keep informed and stay on top of things.
<rodarvus> #edubuntu-devel and #edubuntu ?
<cbx33> RichEd, yes true
<RichEd> I'll bring it up in solution spaces later, but along the lines of #ubuntu-education ... and not just #edubuntu (product)
<LaserJock> yeah
<cbx33> RichEd, sounds sensible
<LaserJock> I hate it when people come on #edubuntu looking for educational support, etc.
<cbx33> we'd keep devel in #edubuntu?
<LaserJock> because I don't have really anything to offer
<RichEd> More user spaces, *not* trying to split the dev community here :)
<highvoltage> LaserJock: you do?
<highvoltage> ah, i see
<LaserJock> yeah, sorry, I don't hate *them*, I hate that I can't help them
<rodarvus> right
<cbx33> LaserJock, that's not true
<cbx33> you're a great help
<RichEd> Are we done in documentation, because then we can move into artwork, and then tackle the solution space stuff.
<cbx33> RichEd, shoot
<highvoltage> LaserJock: what happened with k12ltsp, is that teachers started giving each other edu-support on the lists, that works quite cool
<RichEd> highvoltage: spot on !
<LaserJock> highvoltage: that's where #edubuntu-education would be cool
<RichEd> LaserJock: it's about a home for where each person is comfortable ... some users are as afraid of you as you are of them :)
<sbalneav> Gotta go, I'll be on later tonight.
<RichEd> --- art work ---
<sbalneav> see you tomorrow ogra
<cbx33> RichEd, I wonder if soon we should tackle a non-IRC based support solution too
<RichEd> all in the solutiopn space topic cbx33 :)
<cbx33> nice
<pips1_> cbx33: non-IRC and non-Mailing list, you mean?
<cbx33> we'll wait till alter pips1_ 
<pips1_> yep
<highvoltage> pips1_: heh, I see where you're going :)
<pips1_> hehe
<RichEd> --- art work --- going twice ?
<cbx33> well
<pips1_> hey, not so quick!
<cbx33> the new artowrk I think is in knot3
<cbx33> the new usplash definitely is
<cbx33> though there is a bug fix for it which didn't get in
<pips1_> cbx33: is there an online preview for the impatient? :)
<cbx33> AliasVegas, would really like some feedback
<pips1_> I'm too busy with other things to install knot3 right now... :/
* RichEd will be back in 2 mins ... 
<pips1_> cbx33: ?
<ogra> cbx33, it works ... there is a bug in usplash that sets it to 640x480 (fro which we ship no theme)
<cbx33> I will put it all up online as soon as I get a chance
<rodarvus> cbx33, didn't you applied for ubuntu-devel yet?
<rodarvus> I kind of expected to see you on yesterdays meeting
<cbx33> rodarvus, I will do next time
<ogra> yeah, he missed
<cbx33> I didn 't have time to prepare
<LaserJock> edubuntu-artwork 0.1.0-35 hit my edgy-changes mailbox :-)
<rodarvus> right, don't miss it next time ;)
<cbx33> sorry rodarvus 
<rodarvus> we can always use more hands, development wise!
<highvoltage> whohoo!
<rodarvus> cbx33, no need to be sorry too ;)
<cbx33> rodarvus, I'm there trust me....as long as I have some fans
<cbx33> otherwise I'll fall flat on my development face ;)
<rodarvus> cbx33, make sure you read DeveloperResources on wiki thoroughly
<cbx33> I will
<LaserJock> hopefully I'll make it too
<rodarvus> LaserJock, for core-dev?
<rodarvus> ahn
<rodarvus> I thought you wanted to apply for core-dev
<LaserJock> no, to support cbx33
<LaserJock> oh, I'll get there
<LaserJock> not ready yet
<rodarvus> hopefully both of you will get to core-dev in a few months :)
<cbx33> rodarvus, you think?
<cbx33> wow cool
<ogra> rodarvus, we'll get him there ;) i did a sponsored main upload today :)
<rodarvus> its a lot more responsability involved, but really important for us to have more developers involved in core dev
* LaserJock needs to find more Main stuff to do
<rodarvus> cbx33, yeah, why not
<cbx33> LaserJock, maybe we should try to get gisomount in main
<cbx33> we're getting off topic
<cbx33> ;)
<rodarvus> we haven't much edubuntu specific packaging for main currently (and it is basically handled by ogra)
<rodarvus> but that will increase (a whole lot) in the next few months
<LaserJock> because?
<rodarvus> OLPC
<ogra> and on which CD should that fit ? 
<cbx33> ahhh
<ogra> ah, ok, i suppose that small
<ogra> :)
<rodarvus> ogra: not for edubuntu cd ;)
<rodarvus> don't worry!
<cbx33> ogra, didn;t you hear, we're revising the CD standard size
<ogra> will we get an edubuntu-olpc CD ?
<cbx33> just for edubuntu
<rodarvus> more like a disk image for OLPC and others interested
<rodarvus> with preinstalled stuff
<LaserJock> I thought Mark was springing for getting every school in the world a DVD rom
* LaserJock starts the rumor ;-)
<rodarvus> this overlaps some with what RichEd was mentioning on thinking about educational content, not specific to edubuntu
<RichEd> LaserJock: We can give them DVDs but can they read them ?
<cbx33> RichEd, I think he meant drive
<LaserJock> mhm
<LaserJock> hence the ;-)
<RichEd> We still have probably a 80:20 CD:DVD capability in workstations across the target sector.
<RichEd> I preferred the track that started in the last few weeks about a base CD and add-on packs.
<LaserJock> me too
<pips1_> THE target sector? are you talking about schools worldwide? 
<cbx33> me too
<highvoltage> although with ubuntu you just need a dvd drive in one pc in an organisation :)
<cbx33> RichEd, but as we also said
<cbx33> what is the point of an addon pack
<highvoltage> even with full machines you could just do a network install :)
<cbx33> just make a few meta pacakges 
<RichEd> Schools, end-users, refurb charity cases.
<cbx33> chemistry-meta pack
<LaserJock> cbx33: well, having an .iso for the meta packs is a good idea
<cbx33> i suppose
<RichEd> cbx33: not prescribing a solution, just a concept. how we solve it is not significant.
<LaserJock> cbx33: have you seen my LP page recently, tw :-)
<LaserJock> s/tw/btw/
<cbx33> just checking
* RichEd will now throw a rat amongst the pigeons with a comment thrown around in #canonical yesterday
<RichEd> Could we see edubuntu as an add-on pack to a base ubuntu CD ?
<cbx33> HAHAH LaserJock ROFLPMP
<rodarvus> I think ogra is afk, and he can say it better
<LaserJock> RichEd: depends on the target I think
<RichEd> Just for debate at some point ... not to stir the pot too much, but it could make a lot of things simpler in the long term.
<rodarvus> RichEd, first problem would be losing our brand recognition we have right now
<rodarvus> we would lose automatic installation
<RichEd> Especially the support of base functionality being directed towards ubuntu where it belongs.
<rodarvus> but OTOH, we could easily make a GUI installer for Edubuntu, which can be run after the machine has been installed
* RichEd nods and agrees but comments;
<rodarvus> *and* as an addon cd, during installation
<RichEd> It is just a long term thought.
<rodarvus> sure
<rodarvus> a valuable thought, actually
<RichEd> It could still come out as a Ubuntu Base CD with Edubuntu Base on the same CD ... 
<rodarvus> would make an immense amount of space available for us
<RichEd> With the pocess: installing ubuntu ..... done
<RichEd> Installing Edubuntu Add-On layer ...
<RichEd> All in one seamless process.
<pips1_> I like the idea
<rodarvus> we could then make it possible for people to install Edubuntu standard, Edubuntu Light, "KEdubuntu", etc... all above Ubuntu
<RichEd> It would make it easier for understanding ... not only support, but what is edubuntu ?
<LaserJock> yeah, it's hard because Edubuntu really has many target audiences, IMO with different needs
<RichEd> What is the difference between Ubuntu / Edubuntu and Kubuntu ?
<LaserJock> what gets installed by default mostly
<rodarvus> installer is (a little) different for all of them
<cbx33> rodarvus, indeed
<LaserJock> although Edubuntu has more differences, to me, thank Kubuntu
<RichEd> Yep. We'll get onto that in the solution space topic soon, but tryng to be all things to all people on one CD will hit the wall soon.
<rodarvus> UI (and configuration tools) is different
<cbx33> I'm going to have to go soon guys
<rodarvus> but the basic framework is the same for all
<cbx33> :(
<RichEd> okay ... that's planted the seeds ... no need to debate it all now.
<rodarvus> RichEd, it hit the wall on Edgy already, to be sincere
<rodarvus> we are dropping a lot of stuff which is present on Ubuntu already
<pips1_> rodarvus: please expand
<pips1_> ah
<rodarvus> pips1_, we have just dropped mono, beagle, tomboy and f-spot from edubuntu
<cbx33> the headers are going
<rodarvus> because we needed to make space for other stuff
<cbx33> ogra, said gcc is gone - but it will be back
<RichEd> * Can I do the solution space stuff now so that cbx33 can get the general idea before he ducks off ? *
<rodarvus> also probably the headers, gcc, make, basic tools for building kernel modules, etc
<cbx33> thanks RichEd 
<pips1_> ic
<RichEd> --- management and community ---
<rodarvus> we will likely need to drop (more) translations too in the future
<RichEd> Some background to some really productive thinking and debate over the past week, both within #edubuntu community, as well as with Jono, and Matt Nazum.
<RichEd> As you all are probably tired of hearing now (but I need to repeat it):
<RichEd> I'm the 1st line contact for all Education enquries coming into Canonical.
<RichEd> So that encompasses Ubuntu and all its variants, and enquires from users, partners, OEMs, and quite a wide range of people, with a wide requirements scope within the Education Sector.
<RichEd> Inside #edubuntu we've been talking about providing an end-user front end into the web sites, or a portal for education users ....
<RichEd> ... and brought Jono and Matt Nazm into the debate to find out how and where to host this.
<RichEd> Which is where Matt came in with the idea of Solution Spaces.
<RichEd> He will be creating a new structure off the Ubuntu Web Site:
<RichEd> www.ubuntu.com/solutions/education
<RichEd> www.ubuntu.com/solutions/business
<RichEd> etc.
<RichEd> With the idea being to provide a consolidated place for all information around the needs of a target sector.
<RichEd> Now this works every well for us, because Eduaction and Ubuntu is not just Edubuntu.
<RichEd> Let me grab an example:
<RichEd> In a large scale education deployment the users and administrators will not rely entirely on Edubuntu for all areas of the solution.
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       The Classroom Desktop will usually be an Edubuntu install
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       The Classroom Server will usually be an Edubuntu install, LTSP or otherwise
<RichEd> But Back End Support Services for the classroom will probably use an Ubuntu install:
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       Mail Servers
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       Web Servers
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       Proxy / Cache / Content Filtering
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       Firewalling
<RichEd> ---
<RichEd> So the entire solution is not really just an #edubuntu channel affair.
<RichEd> #edubuntu is primarily around a product.
<RichEd> and so is www.edubuntu.org and wiki.edubuntu.org
<RichEd> but the product is not the solution.
<RichEd> Am I making sense so far ... comments ?
* RichEd pauses
<pips1_> it makes sense to me
<LaserJock> yes, although I'm not sure how the non-Edubuntu stuff would work
<LaserJock> is that primarily a Canonical thing?
<pips1_> the only comment I can offer so far is that we should think carefully about what we offer and how we call it (e.g. I don't like the term "solutions")
<RichEd> It's a reality that is emerging from Matt really ... he is looking at al of the web site areas, and seeing some confusion.
<LaserJock> mhm
<RichEd> I must admit that it has been a bit confusing for me, and I work here !
<RichEd> We have a great core of people in #edubuntu, and we will not touch the dev team or channel or any of the existing processes.
<RichEd> So there is nothing to fear for our community here ... promise
<LaserJock> is there anything that *would* need to be changed in Edubuntu?
<RichEd> Nope. Nothing I can see at all LaserJock.
<pips1_> hmm
<cbx33> I agree about the websites
<cbx33> and the confusing nature
<RichEd> Let me go back to the channel comment I made earlier, if we had a channel #ubuntu-education, it could move some of the enquires here to a more apropriate area.
<LaserJock> I see a lot of "There is Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu, Xubuntu. I have no idea which one to install"
<pips1_> I think Edubuntu *does* need some changes as a product. E.g. I really like the idea with the modularity (add-on concept)
<RichEd> LaserJock: Good place for me to dig in ... let me expand on that.
<cbx33> RichEd, is this the time to bring up my support thingy
<RichEd> cbx33: give me few more seconds : 
<cbx33> ok
<RichEd> We are talking *mainly* about guidance pages, that are information and pointers.
<RichEd> i.e. we will not reinvent anything, just provide a clear "how all the components fit together" front end
<RichEd> and when the person reads Edubuntu ... the link will go straight to the existing web pages
<RichEd> The docs, the wiki, the help site will all remain as is. and you guys will continue with the great job in your own style that you are used to.
<RichEd> We will just have some user oriented fulff pages: If you are a  school lab admin you may want to read this  _ _ _  and this _ _ _  and install that.
<RichEd> What will change is the need for us to create an end user community, discussing their daily education problems with each other.
<cbx33> RichEd, totally !
<RichEd> Not technical issues, more teacher issues.
<RichEd> Hey I found great content on Physics here !
<RichEd> This LAMS stuff really works well for UK Biology syllabus Grades 4-5
<RichEd> That sort of stuff. Recommending school admin tools etc.
<LaserJock> yeah
<RichEd> I won't go into a whole lot of detail now, but will point you to here instead:
<RichEd> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/education
<LaserJock> well, the best analogy I've got (in my limited experience) is computer sellers like HP and Dell
<LaserJock> when you go to there sites the split it up into Home, Business, and Education
<RichEd> That's the outline of the process we are starting .. and at the moment it is Me, pips1_ , and cbx33 who are thrashing it out.
<LaserJock> you go to which area you belong to and the have customs content for you're area
<RichEd> * IMPORTANT NOTE* this will be done by consensus and I am not here as a prescriptive baddie !
<LaserJock> aww shucks
<pips1_> hehe
<RichEd> I'll tell you what I think the Education Sector needs, and we can debate the solution.
<RichEd> I am not here to rock anyone's boat ... 
* pips1_ cringes at the word solution again
<LaserJock> and help me with some darn menus ;-)
<cbx33> LaserJock, hehe
<RichEd> pips1_: I've noted your comment, and we can talk about that word.
<LaserJock> RichEd: don't worry about not rocking the boat too much, sometimes that's exactly what is needed
<pips1_> oki :)
<LaserJock> RichEd: we are all agreeable people, I think, and we are out to do the best for our users as we can
<RichEd> Let me leave you with one last quote from that page I posted up .. the mission / mandate:
<pips1_> LaserJock yeah, let's rock that boat! :-)
<RichEd> Education Programme Mission
<RichEd> The Education Programme supports Canonical's mission to realise the potential of free software in the lives of individuals and organisations by providing a specific focus on Education markets.
<RichEd> In particular, the Education Programme strives to:
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       Position Ubuntu and its variants as the dominant Linux distribution in the Education Sector
<RichEd>     *
<RichEd>       Stimulate the growth of open source software, communities and skills in the Education Sector    *
<RichEd>       Support Canonical and Ubuntu in order to ensure the Education Programme is Sustainable
<RichEd> ---
<LaserJock>  \o/
<LaserJock>   |
<LaserJock>  /\
<RichEd> I don't think we can do all of that unless we create a friendly home for a vibrant end user community ... where they trust us ... and offer comments.
<cbx33> RichEd, you rock ;)
<pips1_> I love the second mandate and I totally see the point of the first and third
<LaserJock> think AliasVegas will let me do some artwork for Edgy+1? ;-)
<cbx33> I'm sure she'd love to have a hand
<cbx33> we were ver very pushed this time
<LaserJock> I can do pom poms too
<RichEd> So that is my goal. If we can be the developer community that makes Education people understand FOSS and not be afraid ... we will be doing the world a service.
<LaserJock> +1
<pips1_> ++
<RichEd> I'd like to have a landing page with the words "Don't Panic" in big friendly letters
<LaserJock> :-)
<RichEd> Not in reality, but in spirit :)
<RichEd> ---
<RichEd> That's me done. I'll update that page 2 or 3 times before Friday, and then 2 /3 times a week.
<pips1_> I want a landing page that says "Education rocks!"
<pips1_> :)
<RichEd> As a matter of interest, we have identified over 50 categories of people who's lives touch on Ubuntu Education.
* RichEd sits down ... and wait for comments or questions.
<LaserJock> "Edubuntu the Educational FLOSS - It gets the junk out"
<pips1_> nice
<pips1_> You have been thinking about that one, ey?
<LaserJock> hm?
<pips1_> :-D
<RichEd> cbx33: you had something to introduce earlier ?
<cbx33> I was going to ask about the live help thingy
<RichEd> expand on that ?
<cbx33> as a support item that is non IRC non ML
<cbx33> and fairly instantaneous
<pips1_> LaserJock we do a tv style FLOSS ad, with sabdfl flossing his teeth and your slogan at the end... :-)
<LaserJock> haha
<cbx33> www.craftysyntax.com
<cbx33> take a look at that and see what your opinions are
<RichEd> cbx33: yes ... go on ... sounds exciting .. does it involve cloning and time travel on your behalf ?
<cbx33> I would be very excited to hear peoples input here
<cbx33> I realise that it would in some ways increase commitment for people involved
<RichEd> cbx33: I'll take a proper look tomorrow ... but let me give you some insight on the "support resource issue" ...
<LaserJock> cbx33: excellent, where would we get the people?
<cbx33> but I think that if we are goign to grow in ways as mentioned we need to have more support options vaibale
<cbx33> LaserJock, that is the only issue
<cbx33> but I believe it woudn't hurt to run a trial
<LaserJock> cbx33: seems to me that would be a Canonical or Canonical-like thing
<RichEd> a real life anectdote from the life of JaneW ... some of you know who she is ;)
<cbx33> not necessarily
<cbx33> infact people closer to the community would be better....
<cbx33> just being able to say to people who are NonIRC NONML....this is a question for the ML
<cbx33> we could be losing potential users because of their lack of understandin of IRC/ML
<LaserJock> cbx33: but you will have issues with getting people and having quality people
<cbx33> LaserJock, I know that
<cbx33> ther ewould have to be a manager who knows the people involed
<cbx33> much like we have for core-dev/devel
<LaserJock> but that is something that Ubuntu in general has wanted to do
<cbx33> if you get my meaning
<cbx33> really?
<LaserJock> sure
<cbx33> excellent
<RichEd> Can I drop in my example ?
<cbx33> sure
<cbx33> sorry RichEd 
<RichEd> When she was pregnant and spawning and raising two youg kids, she belonged to a Parenting Forum ... web based, big friendly pink letters.
<cbx33> got carried away
<RichEd> There was a huge amount of traffic, of mothers helping mothers with all sorts of issues.
<cbx33> uh huh
<RichEd> Occasionally a qualified person would duck thier head in to set the record straight, but 90 % of the traffic was community
<RichEd> I believe if we create the right home,w e can get the same sort of action.
<RichEd> We can use sticky posts at the top of significant forum threads.
<LaserJock> I do too, I guess the question is how to do it and what medium to use
<cbx33> LaserJock, exactly
<RichEd> But let the people help each other. K12LTSP has around 50 emails a day on their list.
<RichEd> We have 50 a month.
<RichEd> Their front end user web site has big ugly simple fonts.
<LaserJock> the solutions website idea + a forum would probably be really cool
<cbx33> hmmm
<cbx33> This is just a personal thing....
<RichEd> We have neat structure, with perhaps too much logic for the end user.
<cbx33> but I steer clear of forums and ML's if possible
<cbx33> because the response is too slow
<cbx33> or it is seen to be too slow
<cbx33> but I can see what you are saying
<RichEd> pips1_ is comfortable woth drupal
<LaserJock> hmm, I go the opposite :-)
<LaserJock> I find real-time support too rushed
<RichEd> pips1_ is comfortable with drupal I mean, so we will play with this for a bit
<cbx33> heheh
<pips1_> cbx33 we know you are on speed, dude ;-)
<cbx33> hehehe
<cbx33> I guess it's the nature of my job
<cbx33> I have 30-40 support requests a day
<RichEd> How is not important this week. I wanted to introduce what & why.
<cbx33> sorry RichEd 
* cbx33 ducks out
<RichEd> We can do some how against a test framework soon.
<LaserJock> hmm, I guess the basic idea here
<cbx33> didn't meant to disreupt the meeting 
<LaserJock> is that we would like to go beyond just "product production"
<cbx33> nn guys
<LaserJock> into "open-source solution center" or somethinge like that
<cbx33> sorry :(
<LaserJock> cya cbx33 
<RichEd> no problem cbx33  
<pips1_> cu cbx33
<RichEd> I'm ready to wrap ... 14 minute to pumpkin time my side ...
* cbx33 is past pumpkin time
<RichEd> Anyone with any pressing issues left over ?
<cbx33> oh
<RichEd> You can mail me with complaints and suggestions :)
<cbx33> I did have....hang on what was it
<sharkybaby> im off now 2 c ya all
<cbx33> nope gone
<LaserJock> cya sharkybaby, make sure to keep track of Pete
<sharkybaby> yep will do 
<LaserJock> he's too wild for us
<LaserJock> ;-)
<cbx33> OI
<cbx33> he's doing work exp with me 
<sharkybaby> :)
<cbx33> at the school
<cbx33> he's doing a damn good job
<cbx33> oooh
<cbx33> yes I have one more thing
<cbx33> in the kind of community thing
<cbx33> I have been approached by the ICT technical panel in the city I work in
<cbx33> to stand for Chairman
<cbx33> so I thought I'd do it....
<cbx33> ;)
<cbx33> it could give me an opportunity to dispell common OSS myths to a larger audience
<sharkybaby> :)
<cbx33> also....I ran my first teaching session today
<cbx33> teaching kids about ubuntu/edubuntu
<cbx33> and open source
<cbx33> went really really well
<LaserJock> myths? surely there aren't any myths about Linux?
<cbx33> now everyone seems to have gone to sleep
<sharkybaby> yeh was pritty gd id say just they all chat 2 much lol
<cbx33> I'll draw with a big marker pen on their faces....and leave ;)
<RichEd> excellent cbx33 : corrupting the youth ... I like it !
<cbx33> nn guys
<sharkybaby> nn 
* RichEd lifts the meeting gavel ... going once
* RichEd lifts the meeting gavel ... going twice
<RichEd> thanks guys ... that's a wrap
<RichEd> nice discussion.
<RichEd> goodnight to all
<pips1_> yes
<pips1_> goodnight !
<RichEd> thanks pips1_ :)
<pips1_> I think you did well today :)
<RichEd> Thanks ... I think we sowed some good seeds.
<pips1_> :)
<RichEd> A bit different ... but nothing too scary ...
<pips1_> i don't think anyone here is easily scared
<RichEd> Now I must show some good progress in 1 week on that page, and we must bring others into the loop with comments.
<pips1_> agreed !
<pips1_> especially the part about getting other into the loop!
<RichEd> I'll add a section to the page specifically calling for comments, live, on the page itself. Public forum for debaee.
<RichEd> * debate.
<RichEd> An open and transparent process.
<pips1_> way to go
<RichEd> :)
<RichEd> And a short way to go to my bed. It's now almost tomorrow.
<RichEd> Goodnight ... speak to you soon.
<pips1_> hehe yeah, it's late
<pips1_> have a good sleep, cu soon
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-09-14
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Sep 07:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 14:00 UTC: LoCo | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
<jenda> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 13 2006, 22:37:29 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 8 hours 22 minutes
<jenda> @now
<Ubugtu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 13 2006, 23:03:46 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 7 hours 56 minutes
<Burgundavia> hello everybody
<johnlittle> Hi
<Hobbsee> hey Burgundavia 
<Hobbsee> @now sydney
<Ubugtu> Current time in Australia/Sydney: September 14 2006, 11:07:08 - Next meeting: Ubuntu Development Team in 5 hours 52 minutes
<Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 14 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 19 Sep 00:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 22:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 22 Sep 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Sep 06:00: Technical Board
<Hobbsee> hmmm.
<Burgundavia> Hobbsee: we are meeting about the UWN
<Hobbsee> Burgundavia: cool, sorry, didnt know.  i'll shut up :P
<nixternal_> hiya Burgundavia 
<Riddell> Hobbsee: oor Burgundavia failed to add it to fridge
<Hobbsee> Riddell: true that.
<Burgundavia> Riddell: the latter
* nixternal_ grabs a soda BRB
<poningru> sorry what was the gobby server?
<Burgundavia> ok, gobby session up
<jsgotangco> wow UWN meeting neat-o
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue14  has the IP
* jsgotangco dives in
<Burgundavia> I had an agenda and then I left it at work
<Burgundavia> so here goes:
<Burgundavia> the first thing I would like to raise is that of ending out plain text
<Burgundavia> sending rather
<Riddell> we do send out plain text
<nixternal_> Burgundavia: i am going to do the additons for Kubuntu, unless of course Riddell beats me to it
<Burgundavia> we have had several requests
<Riddell> nixternal_: go ahead
<nixternal_> no problem..i am adding the stuff from the knot 3 report anyways ;)
<poningru> Burgundavia: request for?
<Burgundavia> thoughts on process?
<poningru> I thought we already sent it out in plain text
<Burgundavia> we stopped last week
<Riddell> what happened last week?
<Riddell> nixternal_: screenshot of old and new gamma setup screen http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/gamma.png
<jsgotangco> WHOA
<poningru> nice
<Riddell> oh, just a pointer to the wiki page
<nixternal_> thx Riddell !
<adamant1988> ok, here I am... gosh you people need to keep me informed better
* nixternal_ can't gobby in right now..sorry..im at class running off of a Live CD, and it says i am out of sudo apt-get spaceage ;)
<Burgundavia> nixternal_: it will go back to the wiki in a few hours
<nixternal_> ok..cool
<Burgundavia> so, back to the first question
<jenda> Could someone please pastebin the log of the meeting so far?
<nixternal_> i might get on here in a second
<Riddell> Burgundavia: sending out the text rather than a link is much preferable, a link should be included of course for added image goodness
<Burgundavia> the issue is processing it to nice looking text
<jenda> Riddell: +1
<Burgundavia> currently we have some moinism that I would like to remove
<Riddell> the wiki text already looks decent
<jenda> Burgundavia: that's ten minutes work apiece, I think
<Riddell> editing it for sanity isn't too hard before sending
<jenda> Or we could even set up an automatic parser.
<Burgundavia> can somebody add how to do it on the the /Release page?
<Burgundavia> I just need somebody to either create a process or do it
<poningru> auto parser?
<poningru> oh
<nixternal_> Burgundavia: i can do the "text" portion if need be
<Burgundavia> a volunteer? jenda? Riddell?
<nixternal_> it is easy, plus kmail doesn't screw it up
<Burgundavia> ok, nixternal_ you are one
<Burgundavia> s/one/on/
<nixternal_> kool
<Riddell> copy, paste.  easy
<nixternal_> yup Riddell  ;)
<Burgundavia> I want to get rid of some of the moinisms at the same time
<nixternal_> kmail controls at 76 i think..so it is safe for all clients
<jenda> Burgundavia: at three AM, I can't, but if it's still open tomorrow, I'll hop on it.
<Burgundavia> ok, we have volunteers for that
<Burgundavia> next topic: thoughts on the current layout?
<jenda> I like it.
<Burgundavia> I want to break out the Distro specific stuff (Ubuntu, K, Edu) into the more general news, as I did with Riddell's stuff last week
<nixternal_> Burgundavia: i like the current layout...my favorite of course was the layout that mgalvin did..however you have gotten close to emulating it..so i think it is good
<Burgundavia> nixternal_: how was mgalvins different?
<jenda> a link, perhaps?
<nixternal_> well, if the template hasn't changed, it is still there
<nixternal_> the ones prior to 13 i believe, were just quick news blobs, which was cool...however, i think the new layout allows for "more" information to get out
<Burgundavia> the template has been signifcantly edited, but his old versions are there
<Burgundavia> ok
<nixternal_> no biggy..this layout is good...the layout in between was ey
<Burgundavia> any other feedback on the current layout
<Burgundavia> ?
<adamant1988> can I get a link?
<Burgundavia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue6
<Burgundavia> that is an old version
<adamant1988> sorry, I've been so focused on my local efforts I haven't been involved with much in the team -_-
<Rinchen> The one you have in Gobby is ok
<nixternal_> ok..well right now we are UWN specific, so on-topic from this point on...
<Burgundavia> ok, plase provide feedback as needed ot hte marketing team
<Burgundavia> next topic
<Burgundavia> different people responsible for different pieces
<poningru> actually one quick point
<adamant1988> query about the newsletter... it's actually a newsletter right? like we send it out?
<Burgundavia> adamant1988: yes, to ubuntu-news
<nixternal_> yes adamant1988 
<Burgundavia> poningru: go
<poningru> I think the stuff for security updates, new bug fixes etc.
<poningru> should go in the end
<jsgotangco> yes
<nixternal_> well security updates are pretty important
<adamant1988> ok... put the boring stuff smack dab in the front. 
<Burgundavia> the LTS stuff?
<adamant1988> more people will actually read it there. 
<poningru> well after the in the press stuff atleast
<nixternal_> usually between releases though, there aren't that many "security" releases if i am in the right state of mind heree
<Burgundavia> so, move the LTS stuff to after the in the press stuff
<jsgotangco> we can put very critical bugs and stuff at the top just in case but we can put them generally near the end
<jenda> we don't _want_ people to read boring stuff.
<poningru> Burgundavia: yeah thats what I was thinking
<Burgundavia> and the security stuff?
<nixternal_> jenda: unless you are hardcore, the security stuff is boring ;)
<jenda> The technical things that the average user does not even understand should be at the bottom.
<Riddell> I was about to say what poningru said
<jsgotangco> we add *very* ciritical stuff at the top similar to our xorg experience
<jenda> nixternal: it is, but don't judge my hard-core-ness ;)
<jsgotangco> but those come far between
<nixternal_> jsgotangco: +1
<nixternal_> jenda: haha
<poningru> yeah what jsgotangco said sounds good
<Burgundavia> so move the security and updates to below in the press?
<jenda> Yes
* poningru nods
<jsgotangco> yeah
<Burgundavia> poningru: can you make the edit to the template and 14?
* poningru nods
<Riddell> shouldn't we list new packages in dapper-updates too?
<Burgundavia> next point: people doing stuff, assign or not?
<Burgundavia> Riddell: we do
<Burgundavia> or at least, we should be
<Burgundavia> do people feel that the current method of everybody editing everything works, or should we impose a bit more structure on it?
<nixternal_> Burgundavia: i say we get people who want to help out and assign..in the past the "hey the marketing team has the UWN now, you can contribute" hasn't worked so good
<jenda> Burgundavia: that would make sense if we can make sure there is always a person who knows the stuff in question - ie. a person who watches security updates anyway is a good bet - OTOH, I"m not sure if we can do that for every section.
<adamant1988> perhaps there should be a section on community involvement?
<nixternal_> but the current team has been doing an amazing job at the same time
<Burgundavia> adamant1988: yes, good idea
<adamant1988> interesting projects that are happening, ways to help out, etc.
<jsgotangco> well i would say anyone diving in is a good thing, making contribution easier for new comers, but I think there should be at least 1 editorial contact who always oversees the stuff generally
<jenda> adamant1988: +1
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco: that would be me, currently
<john_little> Lost my net..back
<Burgundavia> I have deliberately avoiding taking any title, however
<jsgotangco> Burgundavia: that's fine, it doesnt need one i think, just someone looking over would be fine
<jsgotangco> (title that is)
<adamant1988> That way you can emphasis community involvement and spirit through the news letter. 
<Burgundavia> if I say I am the "Release Manager", does that work?
<Rinchen> it does.
<Burgundavia> that avoids the whole "chief editor" stuff
<Riddell> I don't see what's wrong with chief editor
<adamant1988> Burgundavia: are you in charge of everything?
<Riddell> so long as you reliably take care of it each week (i.e. send it out or make sure someone else it sending it out)
<Burgundavia> adamant1988: mostly
<adamant1988> Burgundavia: then your title should reflect that.
<adamant1988> :)
<Burgundavia> I want to make certain I am "stepping above myself" in this
<nixternal_> i think we can rely on Burgundavia taking care of it...he isn't going anywhere ;)
<adamant1988> Burgundavia: every good organization and project needs a "go to man"
<jenda> I do ;) But any name has the same problem. Let's just leave it at the good old meritocratic self, that whoever is at the time the person who takes care we have a UWN every now and then be the person who sends it out and thus checks it as the last... currently Corey... does that work?
<Burgundavia> johnlittle: you have been very active, thoughts?
<adamant1988> surely. 
<john_little> I'm afraid I missed the discussion. Lost connectivity.
<Burgundavia> john_little: we were discussing roles
<john_little> But you've been the guy getting UWN done so some kind of official maintainer/editor status is fine with me
<Burgundavia> we started off with general roles, but it quickly got to me and whether I should take a formal title (I am mixed on this)
<john_little> Its a product and a product generally needs a lead
<poningru> lets make it official
<jenda> I think it is irrelevant to the UWN itself, and we might want to go back to the dilemma if we should assign roles to the sections of UWN
<Burgundavia> ok, other roles
<Burgundavia> yes, that
<Burgundavia> I wouldn't mind if people said "I want to the primary editor of X"
<poningru> that actually sounds good but I think we should have people covering different sections of the community instead of the different sections of the UWN
* nixternal_ wants to be the primary editor for Kubuntu, well secondary as Riddell would be primary
<jenda> hmm
<Burgundavia> ok, that works
* Riddell promotes nixternal_ to primary
<poningru> ofcourse for things like bugs/ new apps in edgy it would have to be that one person
<nixternal_> haha Riddell ;)
<nixternal_> thanks!
<nixternal_> promotions come quick around here
<jenda> While Riddell himself rises to the rank of 'Supreme'
<jenda> ;)
* Rinchen laughs.
<nixternal_> Burgundavia: i can help out with the security and bug stuff as well, since that is another part of my life i guess you could say
<Burgundavia> ok, that is good
<Burgundavia> Xubuntu? Edubuntu?
* nixternal_ points at jsgotangco w/ Edubuntu
<jsgotangco> no please no
<nixternal_> haha
<jsgotangco> im too busy at the moment with non-technical edubuntu work here
<Burgundavia> would somebody mind creating a /Contacts page to list all these people?
<nixternal_> one of these days I will be concentrating a heck of lot more on Edubuntu
<poningru> sure
<Burgundavia> lets leave the Xubuntu and Edubuntu stuff empty for now
<Burgundavia> press coverage?
<Burgundavia> john_little: you have done well on this, do you mind being the person that people contact about that?
<Riddell> someone who subscribed to google alerts
<john_little> I can do that
<nixternal_> just so everyone knows..even though I am considered the "Kubuntu" guy as well as Riddell, please feel free to input information as well..we may hack it a little, but if it is relevant, i am sure it will stay
<nixternal_> john_little: +1 for press stuff
<Burgundavia> absolutely, I want to be clear that these roles don't preclude anybody else editing
<nixternal_> we are more/less PoCs
<Burgundavia> further thoughts on this topic?
<jenda> of course - these are only the people who are held guilty if the section is blank at release time..
<Burgundavia> heh
<john_little> Just the we probably need to reach out to the Edubuntu/Xubuntu folks and see if they want a point person for UWN
<nixternal_> hey...how about adding a riddle or hacker game to each release?
<nixternal_> see if people can crack it each week
<jsgotangco> those teams are too small and busy at the moment to have point persons
<adamant1988> sudoku!
<nixternal_> haha
<nixternal_> ya..sudoku is my train game
<adamant1988> I vote for sudokus
<john_little> its just a few minutes of work each week. Can't hurt to ask.
<jenda> I don't think we need a sudoku in there, really...
<adamant1988> jenda: I was kidding :P
<jenda> ;)
<jenda> good
<nixternal_> i wasn't ;)
<nixternal_> haha
<adamant1988> Not about the community section though.
<Burgundavia> ok, any further serious topics
<Burgundavia> ?
<nixternal_> release days, and the latest time to have it complete?
<adamant1988> I think that would be nice to have, I would like to tell people where they can help get involved. 
<poningru> arr?
<nixternal_> adamant1988: that is everywhere already
<john_little> Burgundavia: Are you going to edit the wiki to reflect this new structure?
<nixternal_> we don't need to do old work over and over and oever and over again
<adamant1988> nixternal_: so? condense it and put it in one place
<Burgundavia> john_little: the new people, yes
<nixternal_> adamant1988: that horse is dead, quit beating it ;)
<adamant1988> I'mt alking about all kinds of projects, not just marketing team stuff
<Burgundavia> somebody needs to create a /Contacts
<nixternal_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Contacts ?
<poningru> Burgundavia: sorry working on it
<poningru> mom called
<nixternal_> kool..thanks poningru 
<Burgundavia> poningru: thanks for everything
<john_little> poningru: never apologize for actually doing something :)
<Burgundavia> ok, shall we wrap up this worldwind meeting and get some hacking on the UWN done?
<nixternal_> hey Burgundavia what are the release days?
<nixternal_> saturday or sunday?
<Burgundavia> Saturday, 7am UTC currently (which is midnight my time)
<Burgundavia> make that Sunday, 7am UTC
<nixternal_> we need to have a set schedule..just in case something comes up with anyone..we can say, here it is set in stone
<Burgundavia> unless the wiki dies... grumble
<nixternal_> haha ya
<nixternal_> cool
<nixternal_> if the wiki dies in the future, maybe we can fire up a quick gobby session, or suffer through a pastebin
<Rinchen> A reliable release date and quick punt to the Fridge gives everyone the perception that UWN has it's act together. 
<Burgundavia> gobby it will be
<Burgundavia> yes
<nixternal_> does canonical still have their servers up for gobby?
<john_little> I say we name nixternal wiki maintainer so when it dies we can blame him
<poningru> Burgundavia: sorry what was your official title again?
<poningru> Burgundavia: Chief Editor?
<nixternal_> im sick of maintaining the wiki
<Burgundavia> Chief Editor was what I think everybody agreed on
<nixternal_> is he going with a title?
<nixternal_> ok..kool
<jenda> darn, there goes the Marketing Team's wiki guy...
<Burgundavia> yes, I will take the title
<nixternal_> aye aye chief
* Rinchen still hosts the marketing team's SOBBY server.
<nixternal_> ;p
<john_little> another bullet on ye olde resume
<Rinchen> +1 on Nixternal (if I get to vote) :-)
<nixternal_> whoa...+1 for what?
<Rinchen> that you get the title and the blame :-)
<john_little> being the wiki blame guy 
<nixternal_> don't vote me any more..i have a doc freeze to contend with tonight
<Burgundavia> ok, if we are done, lets move back to -marketing
<Riddell> nixternal_: what's the freeze?
<Burgundavia> last piece, I need somebody to write up the results of the meeting for the mailing list
<Burgundavia> normally I would do it myself, but I am triple-booked tonight
* jenda runs... towards bed.
<nixternal_> doc team has a freeze within 24 hours
<nixternal_> i have to finish release notes and knot 3
<jenda> everyone seems to be busy...
<Rinchen> Give me 2 hours Nix and I'll be free to help you if you want it
<jenda> I'll do it then, Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> jenda: thanks
<nixternal_> thx Rinchen, in 2 hours i will be home as well
<jenda> But give me the entire log - I came at 1:15
<Burgundavia> thank you everybody for coming out
<Riddell> nixternal_: for all edgy docs
<Riddell> ?
<Burgundavia> the UWN rocks thanks to all of you!
<nixternal_> yes Riddell 
<Burgundavia> now move off the channel
<nixternal_> haha
<jenda> Thank you for setting a meeting time we could all make it to ;)
<Rinchen> :-)
<Riddell> 5 hours until distro meeting, time to snooze
<poningru> aww
* poningru hugs Riddell 
<nixternal_> g'nite Riddell 
<jsgotangco> heh
<imbrandon> @schedule us/central
<Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Central: 14 Sep 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 09:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 07:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 07:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 15:00: Technical Board
<imbrandon> @schedule 
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 14 Sep 07:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 14:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 12:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 20:00: Technical Board
<mdz> @schedule US/Pacific
<Ubugtu> Schedule for US/Pacific: 14 Sep 00:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 07:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 05:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 05:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 08:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 13:00: Technical Board
<Hobbsee> hey mdz.  another hour.
<nixternal> zzZzzZzZ
<nixternal> but i wanna watch ;)
<kwwii> etc != utc, or?
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 14 Sep 02:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 09:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 07:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 07:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 15:00: Technical Board
<nixternal> ^^ where kwwii should be ;)
<kwwii> hehe...no doubt
<nixternal> 18 Sep 09:00: LoCo
<nixternal> I hope Ubuntu Chicago isn't expected at that one
<nixternal> oh wait..we will be there..that is 09:00 our time ;)
<fabbione> @schedule Rome
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 14 Sep 09:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 18 Sep 16:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 14:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 22:00: Technical Board
<kwwii> hi fabbione
<fabbione> lo
<Keybuk> *yawns&
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Current meeting: Ubuntu Development Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Sep 14:00 UTC: LoCo | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 20:00 UTC: Technical Board
* dholbach stifles a yawn too
* fabbione is too tired to yawn
* Fujitsu doesn't yawn.
<pitti> hi
<mdz> morning
<fschoep> Good morning
<fabbione> morning
<mvo> good morning
<heno> morning
* mvo caught a bad cold and feels pretty bad this morning
* Mithrandir waves
* pitti skips the seat beside mvo then
<pitti> mvo: get well soon!
<Kamion> morning
<mdz> ping -b
* dholbach hugs mvo
<mvo> thanks pitti!
* mvo hugs dholbach
<pitti> mdz: 'no such option' :(
<Riddell> hi
<fabbione> pitti: use the other ping :)
<fabbione> pitti: -b -> broadcast
<pitti> fabbione: I guessed so :)
<mdz> doko,sfllaw,BenC,ogra: ping
<kwwii> hi Riddell
<pitti> fabbione: I use fping for the more 37117 stuff
<fabbione> BenC is not online afaict
<fabbione> doko is at OOOCon? or something
<mdz> I spoke to doko today and he said he would be here
<pitti> ogra is flying to the US today
<pitti> to LTSP conf
<doko> fabbione: still online
<sfllaw> mdz: Pong.
<rodarvus> good morning
* Keybuk yawns
<mdz> missing BenC
<mdz> seb128: will you start us off this morning?
<seb128> Done:
<seb128> - bug triage, bug triage, bug triage
<seb128> - bug day
<seb128> - caugth up with desktop-list mails lag
<seb128> - VAC
<seb128> - desktop CD testing
<seb128> .
<seb128> To do:
<seb128> - keep triaging bugs and fix some of them too
<pitti> seb128: your Karma will hit 10M very soon, I guess :)
<mdz> seb128: do you feel older?
<seb128> mdz: no, I feel wiser though :p
<dholbach> haha
* dholbach hugs seb128
<seb128> ;)
<seb128> pitti: right ;)
<mdz> seb128: did you test whether your usplash problem is fixed?
<seb128> pitti: I'm first now, waouh :p
<seb128> mdz: yep, works fine now, I let mjg59 know when I tried
<mdz> ok, cool, thanks
<seb128> np
<mdz> infinity: next?
<infinity> Done
<infinity>  * Assisted with the Knot-3 release (ongoing), including archive admin tasks and chasing up a mess of related soyuz issues.
<infinity>  * General liasing with Team Soyuz regarding bugs affecting distro recently/currently.
<infinity>  * General buildd mangling and processing.
<infinity>  * Bootstrapped fpc for MOTU.
<infinity>  * Finished stacked-livefs, but didn't roll it out in production for fear of hiseously breaking the knot-3 release with the (inevitable) bugs.  Will roll it out for dailies after knot-3 is out.
<infinity> To do
<infinity>  * Roll out stacked-livefs
<infinity>  * Get ddeb exports working with pitti
<infinity>  * Lots of bug triaging and fixing
<infinity> Err, "other random faff" in the "done" section, like a php5 upstream bump, etc.
<mdz> infinity: did you do the seed changes for larger-livefs?
<pitti> infinity: oh, cool, you did the PHP merge? thanks
<infinity> mdz: No, haven't done the new seed, though I can commit it later.
<infinity> pitti: Yeah, it's in queue/unapproved, waiting for knot-3 to fly.
<pitti> \o/
<mdz> infinity: have you and Kamion worked out what changes need to be made there?
<Mithrandir> infinity: (psst, it's flights that flew, knots are tied, or something.)
<infinity> Mithrandir: Thpt.
<sfllaw> Not another knot joke.
<Keybuk> They're totally knot funny at this time in the morning
<infinity> mdz: Should be a straightforward additoin to the structure to place it above live.
<infinity> mdz: I'll test with germinate to make sure I'm not on crack, of course, and pass it by Colin before I blow up the world.
<mdz> infinity: ok, that's well behind schedule now, please make sure that it lands immediately after knot-3
* infinity nods.
<mdz> infinity: thanks
<mdz> doko: next
<doko> status:
<doko>  - edgy-toolchain: implemented
<doko>  - edgy-toolchain+1: no status change, opening of edgy+1 needed,
<doko>    test rebuilds of the archive needed.
<doko>  - python-roadmap: beta available, need to go over the list of
<doko>    application packages in main.
<doko>  - python2.5: beta available, extension packages are built for
<doko>    2.4 and 2.5, rc2 in the archive; needs an update for the final
<doko>    2.5 release. will not be the default python in edgy.
<doko>  - java-roadmap: good progress, classpath-0.92 based gcj in the
<doko>    archive, packages providing jni bindings built natively, built
<doko>    the core java packages as native (-gcj) packages.
<doko>  - openoffice.org-l10n: delayed
<doko> this week:
<doko>  - java: ia32-libs updates, fixed issues with the 32bit gcj.
<doko>  - openoffice.org: 2.0.4 rc1 updates, native amd64 packages,
<doko>    provide test packages for all architectures. look at glibc/kernel
<doko>    build problems on sparc, build failures on standard edgy (OOo
<doko>    currently only builds in the data center and on the buildd's),
<doko>    not in a new edgy installation.
<doko>  - other: OOoCon, looking at python2.5 related build bugs.
<doko> next week:
<doko>  - openoffice.org updates?
<doko>  - OOo bug triage
<doko>  - hplip update, demanded by several users (sync from debian).
<mdz> doko: has the oo.o event been useful?
<fabbione> doko: OOo builds here. it might specfic to faure the problem.
<doko> mdz: yes, I'll summarize on warthogs. 
<mdz> doko: 2.0.4rc1 is running well here
<doko> fabbione: so let's use standard kernels in the data center (did you build until you had the .deb's?)
<mdz> doko: do you know if printing in oo.o is in shape for edgy?  it would be a good idea to talk with tkamppeter
<fabbione> doko: yes full build. afaik sparc uses standard kernels at the DC. it might be a race condition on smp code specific for that cpu
<doko> mdz: last week when I checked on i386, yes. I can test printing tomorrow again
<fabbione> doko: anyway we will dig that out.. just upload.. the buildd have UP kernel anyway
<Keybuk> fabbione: elmo using a standard kernel?  that'll be the day <g>
<mdz> doko: if there are any open printing bugs, be sure to subscribe ubuntu-printing
<mdz> then he'll see them
<fabbione> Keybuk: at least faure does.
<mdz> is this build failure new with rc1?
<doko> mdz: I'm part of the printing group
<doko> mdz: sparc?
<mdz> doko: sure, but that's the list that tkamppeter is using
<doko> the other one: the same as in dapper, sometimes to reproduce on the buildd's, sometimes not (maybe infinity remembers)
<doko> mdz: yes, same list
<mdz> doko: my point is that he will look at the printing-related bugs if that team is subscribed, and if not, he won't see them
<mdz> doko: the build failure is only sparc?
<doko> mdz: you can see all printing related reports in the package view.
<mdz> doko: hmm? I do not understand what you mean
<doko> there are two build failures: apparently the sparc specific one can only be reproduced on faure, the other one can be reproduced on a standard edgy setup, but not on the buildd's and in the data center
<pitti> doko: you mean https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-printing/+packagebugs ?
<doko> mdz: I mean https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-printing/+packagebugs
<mdz> doko: that only shows packages where ubuntu-printing is a bug contact
<pitti> OO.o is not a bug contact of u-printing
<mdz> doko: whereas there are open printing bugs filed against oo.o
<doko> mdz: so you do want the printing group a subscribe of all OOo printing bug reports?
<mdz> doko: yes, all printing-related bug reports regardless of the package
<mdz> so that till and other printing team members see them
<doko> ok, doing that today or tomorrow
<mdz> doko: thank you.  is there a schedule for python 2.5 final?
<doko> mdz: Sep 18
<mdz> oh good, soon
<pitti> doko: please not
<pitti> doko: oh, wait, please do
<mdz> pitti: hmm? :-)
<pitti> doko: (I thought you meant making u-printing a bug contact of OO.o)
<mdz> doko: I will be sending an email about opening edgy+1, should go out tomorrow
<doko> pitti: sure, if you will work on OOo reports ,p
<Keybuk> f*censored* f*gagged*! :p
<doko> mdz: we currently don't have a posisbility of doing throw-away builds?
<Keybuk> (though I prefer funky, which Mark changed the name to in the screenshots :p)
<mdz> doko: we'll find a way
<mdz> Keybuk: I will attempt to hold that discussion without addressing that particular question
<mdz> doko: ok, thanks
<mdz> iwj: next
<iwj> package-dependency-field-breaks: A couple of examples deployed, one (well, one source, many binaries) in the default install.  Need to go through and change more packages.
<iwj> suggest-packages-for-filetypes: Deployed.
<iwj> automated-testing-deployment: No change since last report.
<iwj> firefox beta 2 merge: Done except for a quick final test and upload.
<iwj> todo: bugfixing, automated-testing-deployment, add some more Breakses.
<mdz> iwj,mvo: are any of the existing breaks test cases exercised by the dist-upgrade test?
<iwj> mdz: I need a UVF exception for firefox ...
<iwj> mdz: The m-f-l-all should be exercised by it.
<doko> mdz: what was the decision / further steps about OOo?
<iwj> That is, breezy's packages match the breaks in dapper's m-f-l-all.
<mdz> I'm not sure which set of packages the dist-upgrader starts with; if it gets language-support-en then that's certainly there
<mdz> doko: what's the question?
<mvo> mdz: the problem with hte breaks on upgrade is that the upgrader needs to use a new dpkg/apt to pre-caclulate the upgrade to see if it will work
<Kamion> iwj: s/breezy/dapper; s/in dapper/in edgy/ ?
<iwj> Sorry, yes.
<mdz> mvo: doesn't the dist-upgrader handle that?
<doko> mdz: upload to edgy? upload to edgy with the native amd64 packages as a default?
<mdz> doko: if the build failure is new in this version, that needs to be fixed first
<mdz> doko: regarding amd64, wasn't it only yesterday that you asked for testing?  was there any feedback?  how well do they work for you?
<mvo> mdz: it could install apt/dpkg early, but to make it possible to undo the upgrade fully, we would have to downgrade apt again (or LD_PRELOAD it or something)
<mdz> doko: do you feel that it's clearly solid enough for a feature freeze exception?
<iwj> mvo: I had the impression you'd done that, or at least decided to and it was easy ...
<mdz> mvo: so long as the apt upgrade succeeds, I don't think it's necessary to try to downgrade it if a later step fails
<mdz> the system should still be consistent
<infinity> An apt upgrade will mean a libc and libstdc++ upgrade, though.
<doko> mdz: I'll recheck the printing first. the build failure is the same I do see with 2.0.3 in edgy.
<infinity> Among other things.
<iwj> We could build the new apt against dapper if that would help.
<mdz> iwj: regarding firefox and UVF, yes, we're committed and more or less have to push ahead with it
<mvo> what infinity said, and pressing cacncel won't undo all the stuff anymore
<iwj> mdz: Right, that's what I thought, but I wanted the formal go-ahead.  Thanks.
<mdz> I've exchanged email with Mike Schroepfer at mozilla and he feels there's a reasonable chance that they'll make it in time for us to release with final
<iwj> mdz: I'll believe it when I see it.
<mdz> they should roll an RC soon, so at worst we should have that
<mdz> iwj: one thing, we need to change the Bon Echo branding to Firefox
<iwj> mdz: The problem with the dist-upgrader is that it purports to show you what it's going to do before it does anything.
<mdz> apparently all of the betas and RCs can be called firefox 2
<iwj> mdz: I would like some feedback from upstream before I do that.
<iwj> Oh, really.
<mdz> iwj: I'll forward you the email from schrep
<iwj> I'm not sure where to frob it, either.  It seems quite pervasive.
<iwj> email> Thanks.
<mdz> they must have a knob somewhere
<iwj> I'll see if I can find it.
<mdz> we can ask if it's not obvious
<iwj> Mmm.
<iwj> Can we get back to this dist-upgrader thing ?  It doesn't seem settled.
<mdz> iwj: how much of automated-testing-deployment is you and how much will be sysadmin, do you reckon?
<mdz> either the dist-upgrader can accomodate breaks in this upgrade, or it can't.  if it can't, we presumably can't use breaks in edgy
<iwj> I'm going to deploy it on a machine here first and when that's sorted and working for a month or two then elmo won't look at me like I'm mad when I say I want him to install it.
<lifeless> mad, muahah.
<lifeless> *sorry*
<iwj> mdz: In general it seems to be that because the dist-upgrader wants to show the user what it's going to do, it needs to do one of:
<mdz> iwj: sounds like deferral to edgy+1 then
<iwj> 1. partially commit by upgrading apt
<mvo> I would like to try a solution that involves downloading a new apt, unpacking it and using LD_* magic to use the new code. I think being able to cancel without any permant changes on the system is important
<iwj> 2. LD_PRELOAD
<iwj> 3. Use algorithms from the previous release.
<mdz> I think you and mvo should follow up on this together after the meeting; I can chime in if needed before I crash
<Mithrandir> mvo: that sounds almost as crackful as just using LVM snapshots and rolling back if the upgrade fails, else commit it.
<iwj> mdz: OK.
<mdz> iwj: thanks
<pitti> btw, wrt firefox, many other big distros upgrade their stables from 1.0.x to 1.5.x; so Debian and we are pretty much alone now when it comes to security patch backporting :( so we still have a problem
<lifeless> Mithrandir: I didn't think LVM snapshots had rollback yet
<lifeless> just snapshot and point in time access
<pitti> iwj: I think we have to re-consider upgrading breezy to 1.5 again :/
<mdz> zul: hi?
<zul> mdz: hi
<iwj> pitti: Hmmmm.
<fabbione> lifeless: you just mount the other snapshot to roll back
<lifeless> fabbione: ah, *duh me*
<pitti> iwj: I'd give up on hoary, it's EOLed in a month anyway; but we have to do sth. about breezy
<mdz> zul: would you like to present an update?
<zul> sure
<mvo> Mithrandir: that would be interessting anyway (if feasible at all)
<zul> tis week: xen bug fixing, kernel security updates, bug triaging
<fabbione> mvo: that's something elmo and I discussed at UDU and it's not possible
<zul> next week: xen bug fixing, update wiki, bug triagin
<mdz> zul: wiki?
<iwj> pitti: I don't know if dapper's source builds on breezy but it might not be so far off.
<zul> yeah i renamed the xen kernels so they are more in line with the edgy kernels
<mvo> fabbione: ok
<Mithrandir> zul: we need to app a suffix to the version or something so we won't end up with a conflict with the regular kernel packages over /lib/modules.
<Mithrandir> s/app/add/
<mdz> zul: do you have a wiki page which explains how to get up and running with the xen packages?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: uh why? xen is at .16 and we are at .17
<mdz> fabbione: sheer luck ;-)
<zul> mdz: yes just need to update it reflecting the changes
<Mithrandir> fabbione: for now, yes.  What happens when we're suddenly both at .18 or .19?
<mdz> zul: are you going to make me hunt for it? :-)
<fabbione> mdz: the day we can ship from the same source, we can merge into one kernel.. problem goes away
<fabbione> Mithrandir: ^^
<mdz> fabbione: we will see
<zul> mdz: no of course not ;)
<fabbione> the only reason why we did never merge is because xen is always behind
<mdz> zul: is it XenOnEdgy?
<zul> yes
<mdz> ok
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> dholbach: next
<dholbach> Done:
<dholbach>     * HUG DAY
<dholbach>     * Bug Triage
<dholbach>     * Started Telepathy Team
<dholbach> TODO:
<dholbach>     * more Bug Triage
<dholbach>     * another REVU DAY (next week)
<dholbach>     * start apt-get.org reviewing
<dholbach>     * more work on art-builder
<dholbach>     * more Telepathy
<mdz> dholbach: has anyone stepped up to do real work on telepathy?
<mdz> dholbach: how far along is art-builder?  I've received inquiries
<dholbach> mdz: we have 3 people working quite actively on packaging (apart from me), they're doing good work and they're going to be good MOTUs
<mdz> cool!
<dholbach> mdz: i'll put more effort into it today and tomorrow and on the WE - next week I should have something presentable
<mdz> dholbach: ok, thanks
<mdz> heno: next
<dholbach> de rien
<heno> Done:
<heno> * Assistive technology desktop integration for Edgy -- patches prepared with Chris Jones for gnome-at-preferences and Orca -- BLOCKED - these need review and inclusion by a core dev
<heno> * onBoard: Ready for inclusion in main and the CD -- BLOCKED -- needs review and inclusion by a core dev
<heno> * ubiquity: Working with upstream and Chris on making an Orca script for Ubiquity to make it more suitable for screen reader use
<heno> * Meetings with ACE and ComputerAid charities to talk about a11y collaborations.
<heno> * Completed the OpenCD v4.0
<heno> To Do:
<heno> * Testing Live CD a11y, esp. with ubiquity-Orca script
<heno> * Holiday / Move to Oslo
<heno> * REQUEST: Could everyone here please run Edgy with AT-SPI switched on for just 20 minutes or so? There is a crash bug (#56452) that we are having a tough time getting a good backtrace on. Many users are seeing it, but it has not yet appeared for any core devs. Thanks!
<mdz> heno: those patches sound like they probably need a FF exception, too; please email
<Mithrandir> heno: when's the housewarming party? :-)
<mdz> heno: are there new winfoss tarballs accompanying opencd 4.0?
<heno> mdz: yes, that's why I was getting a bit worried, will do
<dholbach> heno: I tried to get a backtrace from at-spi-registryd for quite a while, I'm sorry I was not successful yet. :-/
<heno> Mithrandir: weekend after next I guess :)
<Mithrandir> heno: woo. :-)
<heno> mdz: I'll do those afterwards with fresher packages
<mdz> heno: good luck with your move; keep me informed if your schedule changes
<Kamion> heno: that's the "start up orca from /usr/bin/ubiquity" thing? I'll try to remember to do that in the next upload
<heno> looking to use FF 2 for example
<mdz> heno: thanks
<heno> mdz: thanks!
<mdz> Mithrandir: next
<Mithrandir> * misc: Knot 3 release (ongoing), some bug fixing, played a bit with Xen.
<Mithrandir> * blocked on: nothing
<pitti> heno: is that 'enable assistive technologies' (freely translated) in System->Settings?
<Mithrandir> * next week: X bugs
<mdz> Mithrandir: anything special on the hit list for knot 3?
<Mithrandir> (argh, network)
<heno> Kamion: it's more of a fix on the Orca side, I'll email you a summary
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: the upstart update should be in now
<heno> pitti: yes
<Keybuk> at least, the binaries built and didn't show up in unapproved
<Mithrandir> mdz: we've had a series of problems, but I think they're all fixed now.
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: I hope they were in an hour ago too?
<mdz> Mithrandir: are the daily heath checks useful?
<Kamion> heno: ok, thanks
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: about 9 hours ago
<Mithrandir> mdz: they're not good enough yet; I need to work with Colin on reordering the information there, I think.
<seb128> Mithrandir: did you figure what causes that mono looking for the config at the wrong place?
<Kamion> I do need to apply suggestions from mdz
<Kamion> on the health checks, to make them less noisy for the release team
<mdz> I think I sent an email last week or so
<Mithrandir> seb128: unionfs/kernel bug, I think; I filed a bug on launchpad-integration about the same problem.
<mdz> but email is sort of a blur
<Kamion> you did, I just haven't applied the suggestion yet
<Mithrandir> seb128: I _can_ work around it in casper, but it's not ideal and might cause pain for Colin
<seb128> Mithrandir: I've seen the lpi one
<Mithrandir> seb128: that's the one
<mdz> ok, thanks  Mithrandir
<mdz> pitti: next
<Kamion> Mithrandir: #ubuntu-devel, but what's the candidate casper workaround?
<pitti> Done:
<pitti>  * security updates: X.org/libxfont, mailman, coordination for kernel
<pitti>  * finished cups 1.2.3 merge & upstream version upgrade
<pitti>  * gnutls12->13 transition: done everything but gutenprint; this package was merged by tkamppeter, to be uploaded after knot-3
<pitti>  * caught up on my overflowing bugs inbox
<pitti>  * fixed high-profile langpack-o-matic bug, new edgy langpacks; BLOCKED: dapper needs an urgent update, too, we need *-updates back
<pitti>  * started bug fixing in various packages (mainly hal and apport)
<pitti>  * CD testing
<pitti> Todo:
<pitti>  * more CD testing
<pitti>  * more security updates
<pitti>  * collect low-hanging fruits out of the bug firehose and fix them
<pitti>  * care for php 5.1.6 and mysql merges if infinity's workload is too high
<pitti>  * apt-get-debug-symbols: provide ddebs on people.u.c, BLOCKED: buildds need to export them first
<mdz> pitti: how is till's learning of packaging coming along?
<pitti> mdz: after a few rounds of discussion the gutenprint merge now looks fine
<pitti> I taught him about a few specifics, otherwise it's going well AFAICS
<mdz> pitti: updates can start to be considered again after the new policy and procedures are finalized and published; it's due Friday
<pitti> the merge took a while, naturally
<pitti> ah, thanks for the update heads-up
<mvo_> sorry, network
<mdz> pitti: what's the nature of the blockage regarding ddebs?
<infinity> mdz: pitti and I just need a quick meeting and deployment day, scheduled for early next week.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> round tuits
<pitti> mdz: the buildds need to use the translation tarball magic to http-export ddebs
* infinity nods.
<infinity> Always with the round tuits.
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<mdz> fschoep: next?
<fschoep> Done:
<fschoep>  * usplash-artwork: contact Seveas to get a basic design in
<fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-polish-human-icons: get approval from sabdfl
<fschoep> Ongoing:
<fschoep>  * art-polish-human-gtk-theme: decide on color tweaks based on artwork direction
<fschoep>  * community-artwork: polish and rework parts to sabdfl's liking, fix outstanding bugs
<fschoep>  * sound-themes: tweaking and polishing of sounds
<fschoep>  * ubuntu-art-polish-human-icons: contact Dave today
<fschoep>  * theme-teams: (try to) package their work
<mdz> fschoep: how has the artwork drop at feature freeze been received?
<fschoep> mdz: mixed reactions really
<mdz> reactions usually are ;-)
<fschoep> mdz: most important thing is that sabdfl isn't happy yet
<fschoep> mdz: and he's my client ;)
<mdz> the opinions of the rest of the world count as well, though
<Keybuk> fschoep: if you cause last minute artwork changes ... we know where you live <g>
<fschoep> mdz: I wanted to gauge public opinion with Knot 3
<fschoep> Keybuk: great, you're all invited since it's bound to happen
<mdz> if sabdfl is the *only* one who is pleased, we haven't done the best job ;-)
<mdz> fschoep: get something into the knot 3 release announcement?
<fschoep> mdz: Uh, didn't pay attention yet, can I still get something in?
<dholbach> fschoep: ask Burgundavia
<mdz> fschoep: yes, coordinate with Mithrandir
<fschoep> OK, great - I'll do that
<dholbach> oh, well...
<mdz> fschoep: it's not out yet but sounds close
<mdz> fschoep: thanks
<mdz> mvo_: next
<fschoep> mdz: thanks
* pitti really likes the new sounds
<Mithrandir> fschoep: from my officemates I've had numerous comments along the lines of "wow, that's edgy"?  (for the gdm screen), so that's good.
<mvo_> Did:
<mvo_> - added popcon/ddtp to UWN make sure the new features get popular
<mvo_> - Bugtriage
<mvo_> - Bugfixing (g-a-i, apt, u-m, vmware-player, ...)
<mvo_> - Google SoC/apt-sync
<mvo_> - Fix performance regression in aptitude/synaptic
<mvo_> - comand-not-found spec database updated
<mvo_> - ddtp description database updated, added more scripts to automate it
<mvo_> - improved auto-dist-upgrader testing script, ran it (we do not look good :/)
<mvo_> Will do:
<mvo_> - bugs
<mvo_> - more "frontend" work for the auto-dist-upgrade tester, make it a real package and encourage users to run it to simulate a dist-upgrade
<mvo_> - investigate what to do with the dist-upgrader and early upgrading of apt
<Kamion> pitti: they're ok but a bit too lengthy
<fschoep> Mithrandir: GDM is one of sabdfl (and the whole martketing dept's) worst nightmares so it's bound to change ;)
<Keybuk> THE GLOW WAS IMPORTANT! </jdub>  ?
<mdz> mvo_: do you know if the hostid in popularity-contest is used for anything important?  if so, we might have some work to do
<Kamion> yeah, pre-knot-3 ubiquity wasn't reconfiguring it
<mvo_> mdz: I don't know, sorry. but I can check it out
<mdz> mvo_: I like the idea of user testing of the upgrader
<Kamion> now, this does mean that at least there was a different one for every livefs build ;-)
<mvo_> mdz: do you have privacy concerns about the hostid?
<mdz> mvo_: no, it's just as Kamion says
<mdz> it's not as unique as it should be
<mdz> so we should check if that's affecting the stats
<Kamion> unfortunately there isn't just one hostid that we can check for and forcibly reconfigure
<Kamion> there are lots
<Kamion> however, perhaps we should collate a list of the most common ones and forcibly reconfigure them in an upgrade
<Kamion> popularity-contest already does this for certain hostids
<mdz> Kamion: we could upload popcon nowish and have all upgrades from earlier versions reconfigure
<mdz> it does? how interesting
<Burgundavia> fschoep, Keybuk: the darkness of the current gdm is my primary concern
<mdz> anyway, time is short
<mdz> mvo_: thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: next
<fschoep> Burgundavia: I got the memo ;)
<Keybuk> Done:
<Keybuk>  * Bug fix upload of upstart
<Keybuk>  * Debugged hang on sparc and ppc64
<Keybuk>  * BootMessageLogging: implemented
<Keybuk> To do:
<Keybuk>  * Seed upstart-logd, update ubuntu-minimal
<Keybuk>  * Fix "quiet" bug
<Keybuk>  * Add output to checkfs and checkroot for when the disks get checked, and cryptdisk for password
<Keybuk>  * Teardown Part Deux
<mdz> Keybuk: my boot messages aren't logged
<mdz> potpal:[~]  cat /var/log/boot               
<mdz> (Nothing has been logged yet.)
<infinity> mdz: Known bug, I annoyed him about it earlier.
<Keybuk> mdz: right, I didn't get a chance to seed the required package before the ice queen descended on the distro
<infinity> mdz: The logger is missing from the seeds.
<pitti> ('me too')
<mdz> ok
<mdz> Keybuk: upstart bug list seems pretty tame
<Keybuk> mdz: yes, I rock
<mdz> Keybuk: almost...too quiet
<Keybuk> the worst bug we had was the ppc64/sparc one
<infinity> I guess I should statr filing bugs.
<mdz> Keybuk: good press too
<zul> Keybuk: is the "quiet" bug something that the quiet grub patch caused?
<Keybuk> fwict, it largely just works for everyone
<Keybuk> zul: no, just my bad spelling
<mdz> Keybuk: thanks
<zul> Keybuk: ah ok
<Keybuk> it works if you boot with "quite" :p
<mdz> fabbione: next
<fabbione> Done
<fabbione>  * Catchup after all this time away has been priority.
<fabbione>  * ubuntu-edgy-cluster: completed. we are in bug fixing mode. Only one/two GFS2 bugs left to fix and one bug in the resource manager that must be fixed before release. Considerting to add a set of NFS kernel/userland patches to handle properly NSF exports failovers.
<fabbione>  * pkgsum.u.c is up and running. the client is in the archive but still need testing.
<fabbione>  * edgy-sparc: not much done other than bug fixing. edgy did introduce a set of weird bugs that are slowly being worked out. Problem is that they are all in chain. silo that doesn't boot .17 with bigger initrd, lvm segfaulting etc... work in userland has been generally more difficult than usual.
<fabbione> To do
<fabbione>  * Fix root on raid (dapper -> edgy regression).
<fabbione>  * Start test install of edgy on sparc.
<fabbione>  * Bug fixing in general.
<mdz> fabbione: please add pkgsum to the list for UWN so that it's featured in an upcoming issue
<fabbione> mdz: once it's tested i will do it
<mdz> fabbione: the point is to get testing for it ;-)
<fabbione> mdz: also the udeb is still in universe and to be useful it needs to be on CD
<fabbione> mdz: it's not easy to test without CD first and i was waiting knot-3 to get it there in a daily
<mdz> fabbione: could you send me email with details of the outstanding sparc issues? no time to discuss right now
<fabbione> mdz: sure. 
<mdz> fabbione: thanks
<mdz> Kamion: next
<Kamion> Done:
<Kamion>   sane-installer-keyboard: Mopped up a couple of loose ends, but surprisingly I'm not seeing too many issues here. The biggest ones I've noticed are that UK keyboards aren't detected properly, which I've punted to smurfix for the time being, and some problems with preseeding. We might get some more bugs coming in here after Knot 3.
<Kamion>   usplash: Fixed up bogl backend so that usplash works on powerpc, at least for me and (more urgently) kwwii. I've had to stop working on this for the time being though - see Blocked.
<Kamion>   misc: SoC review (project successful, need to tidy up a few loose ends but I expect to merge it for Edgy+1). Some cdebconf/debconf enhancements which will help us clean up a lot of total madness down the line. A bunch of ubiquity bug-fixing work.
<Kamion> Blocked:
<Kamion>   usplash: Bug 60183 is effectively preventing me from doing much more on usplash for the time being.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 60183 in linux-source-2.6.17 "oops while running usplash" [Untriaged,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/60183
<Kamion> To do:
<Kamion>   ubiquity: Get the bug list under something resembling control, and knock off more of the frequently-reported issues: I have concrete plans for several of them.
<Kamion>   usplash: Work on tasksel enhancements needed to make resolution detection on fresh (d-i) install work properly. I've cleared the general idea here with joeyh.
<mdz> 60183 -> eek
<Kamion> I have no idea what's calling vfs_unlink; usplash doesn't call unlink itself
<Kamion> but it's entirely consistent, the trace is basically the same every time and I can reproduce more or less at will
<mdz> anyone else able to confirm it?
<mdz> Kamion: has the point release reduced the ubiquity bug torrent?
<Kamion> it is possible that my local usplash modifications make it more likely to crash; it is one of those bugs with the annoying property that, the more you try to debug something else, the harder your system wedges
<fabbione> Kamion: i will test usplash as soon as i get my PB back
<Kamion> mdz: I've more or less stopped keeping up with my incoming bug folder, so I don't have an accurate idea, but my impression from dealing with the web UI is that the flow of duplicates is reducing and I'm starting to be able to find interesting problems again
<mdz> here's hoping
<mdz> Kamion: thanks
<mdz> sfllaw: next
<sfllaw> Done:
<sfllaw>  * Absurd amounts of e-mail
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<sfllaw>  * Hug day
<sfllaw>  * E-mailed about interns
<sfllaw> To do:
<sfllaw>  * Bug triage
<mdz> sfllaw: was the bug day forwarding theme successful?
<sfllaw> mdz: Marginally so.
<mdz> sfllaw: how is the bug count?
* sfllaw looks.
<sfllaw> Sorry for the delay.  Ubuntu machine just died.
<mdz> I'd like to hear about the forwarding experiment in more detail sometime after the meeting, email is fine
<mdz> if that approach wasn't entirely successful, maybe we need to try others
<sfllaw> BugDays seem more like people do what they're comfortable with days.
<sfllaw> Maybe we want something targetted at a particular interest
<sfllaw> And then ask if people would like to forward stuff.
<mdz> sfllaw: do we still have a request pending for graphs of bug count data from LP?
<sfllaw> We have graphs.  They're just not useful.
<sfllaw> They're on cricket.
<sfllaw> Raw numbers are better.
<mdz> right, the ones I saw were awfully uninteresting
<mdz> I thought we asked for adjustments
<sfllaw> We went down from 72 unforwarded bugs to 66.
<seb128> a bug triager mailed the bugsquad list, he has worked on some plots for number of bugs, etc but he needs a place where he could place it ... do we have something like that?
<sfllaw> However, we did have lots of bugs closed, as is normal for a BugDay.
<mdz> seb128: supermirror? :-)
<sfllaw> seb128: He's doing that by sampling Malone, isn't he?
<sfllaw> Wouldn't getting the raw data out of the database be better?
<iwj> sfllaw: ITYM scraping.
<seb128> sfllaw: I've not looked at what he's doing, he just wrote saying he needs "to use wget,
<seb128> python and gnuplot, in addition to a server to serve the pages. Its
<seb128> just a few pages, and the plots are not huge (like < 4K each)."
<mdz> sfllaw: let's continue with the weekly stats presented here then
<sfllaw> OK.  Who controls the Malone DB?
<seb128> sfllaw: could you give him a reply if you think it should be done differently so he doesn't waste time neither feel ignored?
<mdz> seb128: he can generate the graphs locally and upload to the supermirror
<sfllaw> Can we get them to run a cronjob there that spits out the right numbers?
<fabbione> sfllaw: #launchpad 
<sfllaw> OK.
<fabbione> sfllaw: probably stub
<sfllaw> Will ask there.
<mdz> sfllaw: email the LP list asking for a DBA, I believe there's more than one
<seb128> mdz: the point is that he has no "locally" connected to internet all the time
<mdz> or at least a backup, so best to ask the list
<Mithrandir> mdz: how can one store web-accessible files on the supermirror?  Checking them into bzr, but can you get them out as a web page of some sorts?
<mdz> Mithrandir: you can just sftp things to the supermirror I think
<mdz> sfllaw: thanks
<mdz> kwwii: next
<kwwii> done:
<kwwii> changed from yellow-purple to blue-purple for knot3
<kwwii> worked on kubuntu banner, program guide, etc. for akademy
<kwwii> made first usplash version and got it running on my machine (thanks to Seveas for help making the theme and Kamion for getting it running on my machine so I can test it)
<kwwii> worked on several ideas for usplash animations
<kwwii> todo: 
<kwwii> create wiki page with all updated/final artwork
<kwwii> finish usplash
<kwwii> finish tweaking any yellow-purple odds and ends
<kwwii> polish, polish, polish
<mdz> kwwii: how has the feedback been on your side?
<kwwii> mdz: very good actually
<Keybuk> kwwii: you'll go blind if you keep polishing it
<kwwii> the yellow-purple kinda freaked out a few people
<kwwii> wax on, wax off
<mdz> kwwii: probably a good idea to solicit it explicitly in the knot-3 announcement as we discussed with fschoep
<kwwii> mdz: there is a page ready with stuff for kubuntu
<fschoep> mdz: kwwii / Riddell did a good job for that on Knot 2 with screenshots and all
<Kamion> kwwii: paint the fence
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyEft/Knot3/Kubuntu
<mdz> cool, thanks
<mdz> Riddell: next
<Riddell> done:
<Riddell>     koffice 1.6 beta
<Riddell>     KDE ubiquity up to date with GTK frontend
<Riddell>     knot 3 testing
<Riddell> blocked: ruby on ppc
<Riddell> todo:
<Riddell>     knot 3 release today
<Riddell>     further KDE ubiquity changes now needed
<Riddell>    bugfixes bugfixes
<mdz> Riddell: same ruby problem as last week?
<mdz> no change?
<Riddell> yes
<Riddell> it compiles for me, just not in the buildds
<mdz> grr
<infinity> 64-bit issue, like we once had tith mono?
<infinity> s/tith/with/
<infinity> And we appear to have with fpc (just stumbled on it today)
<pitti> Riddell: does it work/break on davis?
<Riddell> pitti: I've not tried
<mdz> Riddell: please do
<Riddell> oko
<mdz> thanks
<mdz> rodarvus: here?
<rodarvus> yes
<rodarvus> Done: (very short week, I'm sorry)
<rodarvus> - bug triage (mostly for video drivers)
<rodarvus> - X.Org driver bugfixing catchup for Knot 3, X.Org server fixes (mostly ready, waiting for main to be unfrozen)
<rodarvus> - Some (little) OLPC work
<rodarvus> To do:
<rodarvus> - more bug triage & bug fixing
<rodarvus> - write down OLPC plans to Wiki
<mdz> rodarvus: looking forward to testing that ATI bugfix
<mdz> rodarvus: let's catch up for a few minutes after the meeting
<rodarvus> mdz, sure, it will be uploaded in a few minutes
<rodarvus> *nods*
<mdz> we're already over time
<mdz> anything else before we adjourn?
<mdz> done
<mdz> thanks, all
<zul> mdz: can i bug you later?
<pitti> thanks everyone
<sfllaw> Night.
<mdz> zul: I'll be up for a bit
<mvo> thanks
<zul> mdz: i was thinking later today
<mdz> zul: after I've slept then
<zul> yep same here
<zul> mdz: ttyl then
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubugtu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 18 Sep 14:00 UTC: LoCo | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 20:00 UTC: Technical Board | 27 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<digitalmouse> greetings programs!  don't mind me- just listening in...
<simira> dholbach: I'll definitely follow up on your movie recommendations. It's awhile since I saw Nausicaa, but I really liked it. 
<dholbach> simira: Oh, it's great - I really love it
<simira> dholbach: I am very fond of some kinds of anime movies, like this one, Chihiro, and a few others
<dholbach> simira: you can watch all the Ghibli movies - they're all good :)
<simira> dholbach: I'll definitely have a look
<simira> (*sigh* I really have too much cash to be looking at dvd's now...)
<simira> I saw "The living castle" as well
<dholbach> I saw it in an open air cinema quite recently - it's lovely
<dholbach> Miyazaki's son made a movie too, it's been released in Japan, but I couldn't find it anywhere - so I guess we'll need to wait for a release
<GNAM> lupin and conan rulez, movies not.
<simira> are there any english ghibli-site with a list of films or somehing...? ghibli.jp wanted me to get flash...
<simira> found it :)
<dholbach> GNAM: conan?
<dholbach> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayao_Miyazaki
<simira> dholbach: I have Totoro lying about, lend from a friend. Is it worth seeing?
<GNAM> Perhaps his most famous TV work was directing Future Boy Conan
<dholbach> simira: It's very nice, although you have to get used to a story that evolves quite slow :-)
<dholbach> GNAM: oh I didn't know that one
<GNAM> that's impossible
<dholbach> hehe :)
<dholbach> GNAM: I'll watch out for it
<highvoltage> 33
<szyszeja> hi
<szyszeja> where can i use ubuntu`repository?
<szyszeja> on xubuntu
<digitalmouse> not sure what you are asking szys
<szyszeja> digitalmouse: hi
<szyszeja> im new on xubuntu 
<szyszeja> n i speak english like a dog....
<szyszeja> i want to configure my sources.list
<szyszeja> can i use ubuntus`srepository 
<szyszeja> i wanna play mp3 .. avi..
<szyszeja> digitalmouse: 
<alef-null> szyszeja: this isn't a support channel. maybe you should try it on #xubuntu or #xubuntu-es or #ubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-09-15
<usuario_> !ping
<usuario_> hi
<nixternal> @schedule chicago
<Ubugtu> Schedule for America/Chicago: 18 Sep 09:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 07:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 07:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 10:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 15:00: Technical Board | 27 Sep 15:00: Edubuntu
<Fujitsu> @schedule melbourne
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Melbourne: 19 Sep 00:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 22:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 22 Sep 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Sep 06:00: Technical Board | 28 Sep 06:00: Edubuntu
<Burgwork> @now Vancouver
<Ubugtu> Current time in America/Vancouver: September 14 2006, 17:13:33 - Next meeting: LoCo in 3 days
<brendonjt> hi all what is the email address for the comunity council?
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-meeting.log
<Fujitsu> @schedule melbourne
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Australia/Melbourne: 19 Sep 00:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 22:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 22 Sep 01:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 27 Sep 06:00: Technical Board | 28 Sep 06:00: Edubuntu
<xrootvzlax> hi ^^
<xrootvzlax> hi ^^ people
<DBO> @schedule
<Ubugtu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 18 Sep 14:00: LoCo | 19 Sep 12:00: Community Council | 20 Sep 12:00: Edubuntu | 21 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Development Team | 26 Sep 20:00: Technical Board | 27 Sep 20:00: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-09-16
<xr00tvzlax> ^_^ h
<xr00tvzlax> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2006-09-17
<xr00tvzlax> hi ^_^
<poningru> uh did we get haxored?
<Hawkwind> ??
<poningru> ubuntu.com
<poningru> the search bar
<poningru> buscar
<poningru> garbage
<jsgotangco> ohhh
<Hawkwind> Huh
<jsgotangco> rechercher
<poningru> err nm
<poningru> it does mean to search
<poningru> I guess I am wondering why an english website has spanish label for its search bar
<jsgotangco> err its actually french i think
<poningru> uh I am getting spanish
<poningru> weird
<jsgotangco> haha
<jsgotangco> well it now says Search
<Adri2000> it is randomly set to "search" in various languages
<poningru> nice
<highvoltage> strange :)
<Adri2000> "Szukaj"
<Adri2000> :p
<poningru> its nice and funny but is it good from a ui perspective?
<poningru> err s/funny/l10n friendly
<poningru> whatever...
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-09-10
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Sep 12:00 UTC: Forums Council | 10 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Canonical Desktop Team
<Balkhog> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 10 2007, 08:18:55 - Next meeting: Forums Council in 3 hours 41 minutes
<pochu> @schedule
<ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 10 Sep 12:00: Forums Council | 10 Sep 19:00: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00: Canonical Desktop Team
<pochu> Seveas: I'm just curious, what is https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-irc-cloaks for?
<PriceChild> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 10 2007, 10:53:40 - Next meeting: Forums Council in 1 hour 6 minutes
* Artificial taps on UGs shoulder
<Artificial> yo Pricechild
<PriceChild> *waves*
<Artificial> 112 people to the meeting?
<PriceChild> Artificial, a lot of idlers
<PriceChild> all ubuntu meetings happen here
<ziroday> @schedule Singapore
<ubotu> Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 10 Sep 20:00: Forums Council | 11 Sep 03:00: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 23:00: Server Team meeting | 12 Sep 03:00: Technical Board | 13 Sep 04:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 20:00: Canonical Desktop Team
<ziroday> hmm
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Forums Council | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Canonical Desktop Team
<ubuntugeek> Howdy all
<forumsmatthew> greetings
<Balkhog> hi..
<PriceChild> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
<ubuntugeek> Vorian wont be able to make it to the meeting today. Our agenda is pretty light this month, do to my miscommunication to vorian about the meeting date this meeting was put on the agenda a little quick.
<ubuntugeek> So I think we plan on discussing Paladine'
<ubuntugeek> complaint next month when he can be here
<forumsmatthew> fair enough
<forumsmatthew> Chuck Norris didn't want to talk about complaints anyway
<ubuntugeek> :) hah
<ubuntugeek> So, First item. Allowing users with over 6000 posts a custom forum title.
<forumsmatthew> I brought that up
<forumsmatthew> I thought it would be a nice way to reward faithful forums users
<forumsmatthew> possible downsides?
<ubuntugeek> I agree, I think if someone has 6000 posts they should be rewarded some how.
<chuckdong> I agree too, I think 6000 posts deserves recognition
<forumsmatthew> It would be pretty easy to implement. I should be able to get it done today
<PriceChild> I don't think it'll be abused... there's no chance anyone would get that many posts by spamming etc. without getting bored/noticed
<chuckdong> the only "downside" I can think of is users trying to artificially inflate their postcount with junk posts
<ubuntugeek> Downsides, abuse (ie not following forum rules.) I think we would need to amend the forum guidelines to include a plurb about it
<chuckdong> but 6000 times.... nah :D
<MikeB> 6000 seems high to me
<Balkhog> Is there any number better than 6000?
<PriceChild> Balkhog, "better"?
<ubuntugeek> 4500 ? I dont think we should go lower then that
<forumsmatthew> MikeB, I had originally thought 1000, but that's probably too low
<forumsmatthew> what do you think?
<Balkhog> PriceChild, have some meaning.. or..
<chuckdong> IMO 1000 is way too low. I'd be fine with something at around 5000 or so, but too much below that, I think, is too "easy" to reach.
<PriceChild> I say higher the better 8-)
<forumsmatthew> chuckdong, I agree
<forumsmatthew> too high and no one get it
<chuckdong> PriceChild: lol then it should be called the ayisu award!
<MikeB> I would think 2000 shows a highly motivated forums users, especially since we don't count post to the social areas
<PriceChild> haha
<PriceChild> what's the highest user rank on the forums atm?
<forumsmatthew> I'll go look
<chuckdong> Administrator! ;-)
<MikeB> also does the language filter work on User Titles
<PriceChild> as in what amount of beans?
<ubuntugeek> Mikeb: Not sure
<chuckdong> hmm are you thinking to let users specify their own?
<forumsmatthew> re: language filter...I'm pretty sure it does work on user titles
<PriceChild> i'll try 8-)
<PriceChild> yeah it works
<forumsmatthew> currently you need 7470 for the highest user rank image and 10000 for the highest title
<forumsmatthew> that may change in a few minutes... :)
<PriceChild> haha wow
<PriceChild> yeah
<chuckdong> wow
<forumsmatthew> I could adjust the default table lower, then allow a custom title after whatever number we decide
<ubuntugeek> Let me do a quick query on post counts and see what we are looking at in terms of numbers.
<MikeB> well, I think it is a great idea, I say we vote and decide on the number later
<Artificial> Why not let people (members) to allow custom titles when reach 10000th?
<forumsmatthew> because only 3 or 4 people would have it
<chuckdong> I think 10,000 is too high though....
<chuckdong> it takes a tremendous amount of motivation to reach 10,000 just by support area posts
<forumsmatthew> I was thinking something a little more accessible, but still difficult to attain
<Artificial> 7000?
<chuckdong> well Ryan should be able to let us know soon a rough distribution.
<ubuntugeek> Ok after doing some queries, i think 3500 would be a fair number.
<chuckdong> how many people are at 3500 or above?
<forumsmatthew> that sounds good to me
<MikeB> fine with me
<ubuntugeek> about 60
<PriceChild> wow that's i?
<Artificial> well, we properly see alot post replyies like: "ok", "me too"
<PriceChild> *it
<ubuntugeek> when you get into the < 2000 range there are thousands and thousands
<forumsmatthew> we might see some replies like that, but I kind of doubt it
<popey> how about speaking to Gerry Carr @ canonical and see if you can get a freebie from the canonical store for people over a certain number of posts?
<chuckdong> btw, ubuntugeek, did you kill the forum server? :D
<ubuntugeek> yes I think i did
<chuckdong> popey: ooh that sounds fancy
<ubuntugeek> lol
<popey> vouchers for example
<PriceChild> lol i wondered why it was timing out
<popey> he offered some for something else recently
<popey> or at least suggested he would offer some :)
<forumsmatthew> yep, server's down
<chuckdong> Artificial: naturally we'd have to enforce anti-spamming...
<Artificial> just made a reply on the forum, instead of posting it my gedit pop'd up with the title reply
<chuckdong> and if it goes on too much, then we should just call it quits.
<ubuntugeek> Yeah sorry, our poor db server :)
<forumsmatthew> no, not down, really slow
<chuckdong> my other proposal regarding to this....
<chuckdong> what about some sort of infraction limit lockout?
<forumsmatthew> that might work
<chuckdong> i.e. after you receive N infraction points in oyur history, you are automatically disqualified
<forumsmatthew> what I was thinking for implementation was to make a new usergroup
<forumsmatthew> users automatically move to it
<chuckdong> I'm thinking N would be somewhere near 3-5
<forumsmatthew> after posting the right number
<ubuntugeek> 5 infractions sounds good
<forumsmatthew> there must be a way to exclude users with infraction points
<chuckdong> we could go "all out" and make it similar to a Ubuntu Members interview process at a FC meeting :)
<chuckdong> there seems to be few enough people who reach that milestone so we don't get bogged down
<Artificial> Longtime trolls should have their own title! Saying: "hey, I'm a troll" LOL
<ubuntugeek> matthew: yah i think we just need to make a infraction rule for that
<chuckdong> whoo! database error :)
<forumsmatthew> I'm getting the error as well
<chuckdong> oh yeah, we should really design a non-IIS style error message ;-)
<chuckdong> like a kernel panic mockup
<Artificial> a Chuck Norris Killroy instead
<forumsmatthew> ryan, I hope your email inbox holds up...here it comes
<PriceChild> we're gonna have a couple of threads of "ubuntuforums.org runs on IIS!!!! - see error page!" when it comes back aren't we :P
<PriceChild> I'm sure we've had a few of those before.
<forumsmatthew> lol--Chuck Norris wasn't pleased that only a few forums members were participating in his week, so he kicked the server
<chuckdong> PriceChild: lol remember when people found out we ran BSD at one point? ;-)
<chuckdong> forumsmatthew: LMFAO
<PriceChild> chuckdong, I'm too green to remember that :)
<chuckdong> OOH! a chuck norris error page!
<ubuntugeek> It broke
<ubuntugeek> lol
<forumsmatthew> I remember...
<chuckdong> PriceChild: ah, well we got a lot of outcries :)
<PriceChild> way before my time
<forumsmatthew> chuckdong, do it!!!
<chuckdong> :)
<PriceChild> wooo tis back
<chuckdong>  Currently Active Users: 239 (46 members and 193 guests)
<Artificial> something like Chuck Norris smashed it
<chuckdong> record low :)
<ubuntugeek> Sorry about that, the query caused a backlog :)
<chuckdong> lol I can imagine!
<MikeB> we should make a special link to chuck norris facts in the forums for a week
<MikeB> :)
<ubuntugeek> Ok back to business.. did we decide that 3500+ are eligible ?
<forumsmatthew> In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have queried the server at the same time...
<forumsmatthew> +1 for 3500
<Artificial> +1
<MikeB> +1 for 3500
<ubuntugeek> +1 for 3500
<PriceChild> forumsmatthew, haha
<chuckdong> 378,901 members...  60 out of them....
<chuckdong> +1 from me.
<forumsmatthew> I"ll adjust the usertitle table as well
<ubuntugeek> k, matthew knows how to set it up. Matthew do you want to make an announcement as well?
<forumsmatthew> and the rank table...since I spilled the beans in this chat on the number needed
<forumsmatthew> I can make the announcement as well...once it's done you will see a note in the cafe
<chuckdong> no pun intended...
<chuckdong> ;-)
* forumsmatthew looks away sheepishly
<forumsmatthew> pun intended
<chuckdong> hahaha
<chuckdong> :D
<Artificial> don't feel so baaaahd, matthew ;)
<ubuntugeek> Ok moving on..
<forumsmatthew> ewe are horrible!
<ubuntugeek> The next item i just put on the agenda this morning from this post.
<ubuntugeek> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=545940
<ubuntugeek> I know pricey has asked me about it in the past and I figured we should discuss it
<highvoltage> oh cool, a forums meeting!
<forumsmatthew> I think this is a fair request. We could have a link to email the FC and whoever is around could do something
<PriceChild> yeah we had a guy in #ubuntuforums about it
<chuckdong> hi, highvoltage
<forumsmatthew> to register the user
<highvoltage> hi chuckdong
<forumsmatthew> would we get a ton of spam, though?
<ubuntugeek> Well yeah thats the main reason we have the captcha in place
<forumsmatthew> yeah
<ubuntugeek> Remember when we had that bot signing up 1,000's of accounts?
<ubuntugeek> we had no captcha in place
<PriceChild> that took hours to clean up..
<chuckdong> I am reading through the alternatives right now.
<ubuntugeek> yeah it was a pain in the ...
<PriceChild> still finding bits weeks later
<chuckdong> I am not impressed by *ANY* of them personally
<ubuntugeek> Chuckdong, no they require code hacking
<PriceChild> chuckdong, weekend project?
<PriceChild> ;)
<ubuntugeek> which is why we never used them
<chuckdong> I'd love to investigate a better solution but I'd first like to speak to a Captcha expert
<chuckdong> ubuntugeek: not just code hacking
<chuckdong> I don't think ANY of them perform the fundamental job of a CAPTCHA
<chuckdong> that is, test for humanness.
<ubuntugeek> Agreed
<chuckdong> those seem like dummy rate limiters.
<chuckdong> which doesn't solve problems with spammers with an entire /24 address block to themselves.
<chuckdong> * Tricking bots with dummy "Do not fill in this field" form fields that are labelled as such and also hidden with CSS.
<chuckdong> I have personally seen this one fail
<ubuntugeek> So my question is, in our familiarity of the forums and the downsides to not having a captcha do we need the current captcha is working well? Sure it has down sides but thats a vbulletin limitation.
<chuckdong> ubuntugeek: when a good alternative comes around, I would love to see it implemented
<ubuntugeek> +1
<chuckdong> but currently I don't see any alternate proposals that satify that bill.
<forumsmatthew> yeah. I would love to have a better option, but I don't see one yet
<forumsmatthew> +1
<chuckdong> if someone knowledgeable on CAPTCHA techniques could come and talk with us about the subject, I'd be more than happy to listen and discuss
<forumsmatthew> the spam problem is too big to go without a good captcha
<ubuntugeek> Maybe in vbulletin 4.x series they will enhance the captcha abilities.
<chuckdong> for now, the CAPTCHA has to stay based on past issues...
<chuckdong> in addition, I'd like to add, if anyone has an accessibility handicap that prevents them from filling out the registration form, they are more than welcome to contact a staff member for assistance.
<chuckdong> perhaps we should give them a mechanism to do this with
<chuckdong> I'd expect relatively few people out of our potential visitor pool to need this type of assistance
<chuckdong> and it probably means less work in the end than to implmenent some fancy unfamiliar CAPTCHA
<ubuntugeek> Chuckdong, agreed. How about this, on the signup page we can direct them to post in the feedback area as a guest user? The guest user would need to be a moderated account.
<Seveas> pochu, ubuntu-irc-cloaks is purely administrative so we can keep track of cloaks
<chuckdong> ubuntugeek: sounds good
<ubuntugeek> matthew, mike?
<forumsmatthew> that's not a bad idea...
<forumsmatthew> we can watch and see if the post moderation queue fills up with spam
<forumsmatthew> at least it won't be on the forums at large
<ubuntugeek> right.
<chuckdong> sounds great
<MikeB> seems like a good idea
<ubuntugeek> k, we'll try it out and see how it goes.
<pochu> Seveas: thanks. I was wondering whether I could leave the team without loosing my cloak, but I guess not :)
<chuckdong> on a related note.... what's up with e-mail notifications? It seems like some users never get one, despite having a seemingly valid e-mail?
<chuckdong> i.e. registration confirmation
<chuckdong> I've had to help several users jump through that one personally...
<forumsmatthew> I"ve helped one or two as well
<Artificial> Could it be specific email adresses?
<MikeB> spam filters on their end?
<ubuntugeek> My guess spam filters. We could turn the email validation off
<ubuntugeek> but its a small percent that has issues
<chuckdong> I recall an incident prompting me to turn it back on.
<chuckdong> but in general, I think it's better with it on.
<ubuntugeek> If a user has problems you can just goto into the user manager and change the group to registered user to eliminate the need for the verification
<chuckdong> right
<forumsmatthew> true, it's not hard and not that common of a problem
<ubuntugeek> agreed
<forumsmatthew> anything else?
<chuckdong> regarding next week's agenda....
<chuckdong> I don't think the first item is a valid one for the FC to discuss.
* Hobbsee waves
<chuckdong> I can't imagine any productive road that discussion would go down
<ubuntugeek> hi hobbsee
<chuckdong> hi Hobbsee :)
<forumsmatthew> I can't see a single reason we can't discuss that now, and quickly
<forumsmatthew> hi, Hobbsee
<Artificial> yes, where's my smiley set for the forum, that got promised to be intergraded
<ubuntugeek>  /me runs from Artifical
<Artificial> LOL
<forumsmatthew> I vote to keep Kiwi, he's a great admin and a huge asset to the forums
<chuckdong> +1 :)
<forumsmatthew> I have no other comments
<ubuntugeek> +1
<MikeB> +1
<Artificial> +1
<ubuntugeek> I have a comment on that complaint.
<chuckdong> but more seriously, if he actually wants to take that up, it's CC territory, not us....
<forumsmatthew> chuckdong, agreed
<forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, please comment as you like
<chuckdong> however, I'd be willing to take a listen to what Paladine has to say regarding the appeal of his ban.
<ubuntugeek> When a forum staff member put themselves out into the general pool of users and enforces rules they will always be the brunt of the complaints. All the admins have seen it. If any one of us handled that situation it would have resulted in the same situation.
<forumsmatthew> chuckdong, yes. He can present that at the Oct 10 meeting
<chuckdong> ubuntugeek: agreed
<forumsmatthew> +1
<chuckdong> some staff members tend to be the ones who act upon the agreement of the concensus, but that's that -- there was concensus reached beforehands
<ubuntugeek> The bottom line is, the complaint is week and he was clearly looking to troll based on  his actions which are not defined on that agenda.
<ubuntugeek> Thats all I have to say
<ubuntugeek> We can discuss it more next month when he is present
<chuckdong> let's reserve specific dicussion on the user for hwen he is present
<ubuntugeek> Thats all I have for this meeting
<chuckdong> but for now, I move to reject item 1, regarding KiwiNZ's removal off the agenda
<ubuntugeek> +1
<MikeB> +1
<forumsmatthew> okay, I'm off to adjust the user title table and to work on a new user group
<ubuntugeek> I am off to delete 8k worth of forum down emails
<chuckdong> lol
<forumsmatthew> thanks, everyone, for a good meeting
<Artificial> before you leave UG
<Artificial> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=234954&highlight=smiley
<ubuntugeek> ;)
<chuckdong> I'll add a summary until Vorian can do a proper one :D
<ubuntugeek> thanks jdong
<Artificial> :-D
<MikeB> later all
<ubuntugeek>  roundhouse kicks and vanishes.. chuck would do it
<forumsmatthew> +1
<forumsmatthew> lagging, sorry it took a minute
<Artificial> Matthew = Lag master 2000
<Artificial> (can be bought at TVShop)
<Artificial> cya all
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Canonical Desktop Team | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team
<dthacker> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 10 2007, 18:07:14 - Next meeting: Screencast Team in 52 minutes
<ph8> i can actually attend the next server meeting
<ph8> fantastic!
<ph8> thought i'd share that with everyone :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Screencast Team | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Canonical Desktop Team | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team
<popey> ooo nearly time
<popey> Anyone around for the screencast team meeting?
<spd106> yes
<popey> cool
<popey> going to be a quiet one :)
<popey> ok, lets make a start.
<popey> BONG! Screencast meeting begins
<popey> Agenda is at:- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Meeting20070910
<popey> * Action points from last meeting
<popey> ( which can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Meeting20070827 )
<popey> Ok, firstly, no new non-ubuntu-screencast-team screencasts have been uploaded since that meeting
<popey> when they are they will be categorised as such
<popey> we now have scp (well I do) access to the screencast site
<popey> (this makes uploading much easier but I still "only" have 90K/s upload rate so it still takes an age to upload 6 videos per screencast!)
<popey> site was getting DOSed, this was fixed
<popey> drupal 5 can wait until the canonical system admins have made a theme for it - and definitely until after MoS2007
<popey> The rest is all still in progress
<popey> Ok, onto the next item.
<popey> * Current status
<popey> We have uploaded 9 screencasts each in 6 formats (3 sizes, two codecs), and they're proving quite popular
<popey> we have around 1000 subscribers to the high quality ogg feed through miro/democracyplayer alone
<popey> we have been in the "most popular" slow on miroguide for the last week:- https://www.miroguide.com/
<popey> yay us!
<Webspot> yay
<popey> (hi Webspot )
<Webspot> hi :)
<popey> downside is that this week has been madly busy in my personal life - so I am behind - my bad, apologies
<Webspot> I'm also behind :p
<popey> (two kids with birthdays in one week and one starting school means I get called away from the computer a lot)
<popey> however this is not a disaster! :)
<popey> I have decided we need to rejuggle the plan - so we will talk about that in a bit
<popey> we have had a fair bit of feedback in the form of comments on the site
<popey> ranging from "these are great" to "remove this now, you said Linux was an OS, it's a kernel you idiot!" type posts
<popey> I am really happy to get both types of comments
<popey> means people are watching them :)
<popey> Also had a comment about the less than stellar quality of the 1280x720 ogg video - and it turns out I had a setting too low in xvidcap for quality
<popey> i discovered this 5 mins ago
<spd106> Which size video is the most popular?
<popey> so all screencasts from now on from me will be much crisper
<popey> 1280x720 ogg - easily
<popey> and surprisingly
<spd106> Will the new quality bump up th efile size?
<popey> howeveer that is based only on the feed usage, not the actual downloads of files
<popey> shouldn't do too badly no it just means there will be a cleaner master to encode from
<popey> so that's the current status - I have one extra one that's not online yet - "installing ubuntu"
<popey> I have decided to split it
<popey> to have multiple "installing" videos
<popey> one for using the live cd, one for the alternate cd and maybe another for server/netinst
<popey> so we cover all bases - make sense?
<Webspot> yeah
<popey> the good news is this pushes back the schedule a bit - and gives you more time to make yours :)
<popey> bad news is we need to rejig the schedule
<popey> i am coming to the conclusion that we should drop the idea of "week 1" "week 2" and just have a steady stream of the screencasts
<popey> because it restricts us having "week of this" or "week of that", I don't think people care
<popey> I think they just want the content :)
<popey> given we already have the "month of" moniker, having  a week of sub-moniker is overkill
<popey> so, I will edit the wiki page after the meeting to reflect this
<spd106> It's nice to have some structure, though you're probably right
<popey> yeah, structure is good, but not when it makes life too hard for us :)
<popey> would also mean we can be a bit more free with the schedule (within reason)
<popey> i.e. we can start talking about specific applications at any time
<popey> we don't necessarily have to stick to a theme for this week
<spd106> I think the introduction week was a good idea
<popey> yeah, and once people are up to speed with what it is, and how to isntall, we can go anywhere from there really, wouldn't you say?
<spd106> true
<popey> although it does make sense to show how to install apps and installing updates early on
<spd106> As long as the quality remains high
<popey> :)
<popey> indeed
<popey> ok, there is an extra spanner I am going to throw in :)
<popey> I am on holiday for a week from 14th to 21st, and will have sporadic very low speed internet access
<popey> so this means we either go mad to make loads, or we just announce a "screencast holiday" on the site :)
<popey> we will still have the total of 30 screencasts in september
<popey> (I plan to record some whilst on holiday but cannot upload due to bandwidth limits)
<popey> so will play catch up after 21st sept
<popey> I will of course do my best to make as many as I can, and hope others will before the 14th (this friday)
<popey> but I don't think we should kill ourselves to do it :)
<popey> its all gone quiet :)
<popey> ok, lets move on..
<popey> we've kinda covered the progress so on to the next subject
<popey> * Translation / Sub-titling
<popey> I really wasn't expecting us to get some transcriptions done so quickly
<popey> we now have quite a few srt files - subtitle/caption files - which I need to upload to the site
<popey> I am thinking we can just put them on the page with each screencast as a link to download - and have a little note that says how to use them
<Webspot> Yeah. Seems the best way
<popey> it's possible to upload them to google and the flash player we use can support them but I'm not sure how to get the format right for both
<popey> it seemed to barf when i tried - on both
<popey> maybe the syntax wasn't right - it's on the to-do list anyway
<spd106> I was wondering about that the other day
<popey> the other thing we have to worry about is audio dubs
<popey> oh?
<spd106> google asks for utf-8
<spd106> I'm not sure how to check for it
<popey> how to check if a file is utf-8?
<spd106> From what I've read it should be standard
<popey> I don't know much about that I'm afraid
<spd106> but when ever I open an srt it says some iso standard
<popey> looking at it I think google is barfing at the blank lines in the srt file
<popey> http://video.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=26577&hl=en_GB
<spd106> oh, ok
<spd106> I thought that was a part of the spec
<popey> 1
<popey> 00:00:00,881 --> 00:00:03,426
<popey> This is Alan Pope with the Introduction Screencast
<popey> 
<spd106> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SubRip
<popey> for example, google wants:-
<popey> just the timestamp and the text
<popey> not the 1 or the blank
<popey> I will monkey around with one of the files we have and report back to the mailing list
<popey> see if we can get the format right
<popey> next thing is audio dubs
<popey> for example I have been sent an audio file for one screencast which i can easily dub and re-encode, so we have a french version of the samba screencast
<popey> i guess i could just upload them all and make a french page perhaps?
<popey> maybe link to the french page from the English page?
<popey> and vice versa
<Webspot> Yeah
<popey> rather than chuck all the languages on one page
<popey> so the url might be /samba_filesharing we could have /samba_filesharing_fr  and _es _de etc
<popey> as a separate page they would be easier for people to link to
<popey> and it woudl be obvious it's an existing screencast but with french audio
<popey> hmmm, well it's obvious to me anyway
<spd106> sounds like a good idea
<popey> so long as they are linked to, maybe we should have a block on the side of the site that lists translated ones so far, and untranslated ones
<popey> no, untranslated is silly
<popey> because none have been translated to swahili so they are all in essence untranslated
<popey> not sure how to display that
<popey> maybe a simple table
<spd106> Are you going to do all sizes?
<popey> list of screencasts down the side, translations along the top, links (ticks) in the middle for translations
<popey> spd106: it's no extra effort just disk space and time to upload to do all the sizes
<popey> I probably won't setup rss feeds and the like
<popey> maybe have a category
<RobV> Perhaps have a note available under screencasts saying "this screencast is also available in ...", as well?
<popey> which would be useful for non-EN planets to syndicate
<popey> yes RobV, good idea
<popey> "also available in chocolate flavour"
<RobV> i'm more a fan of vanilla, but yeah.
<popey> I could tag all the existing ones with "english_audio" and "english_video"
<popey> and then add extra tags for the non-english ones
<popey> make them easy to find
<popey> ok, this all sounds groovy
<popey> we're SO going to run out of disk space :)
<Webspot> How much do we have?
<popey> /dev/hda1              25G   13G   11G  54% /
<popey> but I don't know if that's LVM - it may be
<popey> it's xen so i would expect it to be lvm'ed, and more space may well be just a request to the canonical admins away
<Webspot> yeah
<popey> when I said to them that I figured we would need 8GB MAX for MoS2007, they said it was fine
<popey> ok, so the next question on the agenda is how do we manage the translations
<popey> will it work just having a page on the site showing translation status?
<popey> and ask people to email the srt to the mailing list and/or oggs of dubs to us/me ?
<popey> would be nice to use launchpad/rosetta
<popey> suggestions welcome!
<spd106> I think some kind of version system would be uesful
<popey> I am no expert on these matters
<spd106> People make mistakes, I know I do
<popey> we could use an lp ppa?
<popey> sorry, lp bzarr repo
<spd106> I'm new to this as well, I'm afraid
<popey> maybe a mail to the launchpad-users list might help
<spd106> What do the docs team use?
<popey> i think it might also be useful to mail the loco mailing list - the global one - actually asking for translations
<popey> I don't know
<popey> but if we ask the loco list - we really need a system in place first
<popey> so I think asking the doc team and/or launchpad devs first might be a wise plan
<spd106> Is the screencasts team part of the docs team?
<popey> see if we can organise a revision control system first, then solicit help
<popey> yeah, kinda :)
<popey> they would like to have some screencasts they can link to from the documentation
<popey> brief history..
<spd106> They have lot's of skilled translators too
<popey> I setup the screencast site as a ubuntu-uk thing, Matt East (mdke) suggested it shouild be a global (not UK) thing and thus adopted us into the doc team
<popey> i recently setup the irc and mailing list channels for us to discuss separate from -doc
<popey> not because I don't want to be part of -doc, just figured we needed a dedicated channel
<popey> if there is any help we can leverage from the -doc team then all the better
<spd106> There was a post to the docs list today asking about screencasts
<popey> yeah :)
<popey> he popped into the irc channel too - seems very keen to make a few screencasts
<popey> which is exactly what we need/want :)
<popey> ok, so summary:-
<popey> Contact launchpad devs (via mailing list) and doc team to see how they manage revisions of non-structured data like our .srt files
<popey> once we can figure some kind of control system we start asking doc team and loco teams for help translating?
<popey> make sense?
<spd106> yep
<RobV> yep; one thing: what about audio files?
<RobV> Is there any structure in place for them yet, or will that need to be looked at - in due time ;) - too?
<popey> I'll ask about that at the same time
<RobV> Okay
<popey> the two are heavily related really
<popey> thanks for reminding me :)
<popey> ok, next topic, unless anyone has anything further on translation...
<popey> * Formats that videos are supplied in:-
<popey> too many, too few?
<popey> i need to get some proper stats from canonical system admins as to which videos most people watch
<popey> we could potentially just have 1280x720 ogg and 1280x720 flash, and upload to google video for everyone else :S
<popey> comments/flames?
<spd106> I like the small ogg
<popey> damnit ;)
<spd106> I only have a 1024x768
<popey> ah, ok
<popey> understandable
<popey> but if you grabbed the 1280x720 you could watch that scaled down?
<popey> which would arguably look better than my re-encoded version
<spd106> Yeah, but it wastes bandwidth
<popey> well.. you say that...
<spd106> I suppose I could cope
<popey> -rw-r--r-- 1 popey popey 85M 2007-09-10 15:00 20070908_places_and_system_theora_400k_vorbis_1280x720.ogg
<popey> -rw-r--r-- 1 popey popey 31M 2007-09-10 14:16 20070908_places_and_system_theora_400k_vorbis_512x288.ogg
<popey> -rw-r--r-- 1 popey popey 50M 2007-09-10 14:26 20070908_places_and_system_theora_400k_vorbis_768x432.ogg
<popey> yeah, you're right
<popey> wowzers, look at those file sizes
<spd106> Does anyone download the medium one?
<popey> tell you what though, I am staggered and amazed we haven't been asked for MOV (H.264/AAC) and AVI (MPEG4/MP3) support!
<popey> dunno, need to get stats from canonical
<spd106> non-free
<popey> well, from the windows weenies
<popey> i mean
<popey> and the apple ipod users
<spd106> they're not here
<popey> ipod video even
<popey> hehe
<spd106> Just provide a link to ogg codecs
<popey> ok, lets defer this item until the next meeting, we'll keep doing what we're doing, and I'll see if I can get some stats about which files are popular from the system admins
<popey> heh, the first screencast in the mos2007 has such a link
<popey> ooo, speaking of which..
<popey> we did get a request for a "what if I am on windows, how do i view these" page
<popey> would be useful if someone could put together the text for such a page
<popey> maybe a couple of screenshots
<spd106> Surely most people have heard of flash
<popey> well, yes, true
<spd106> There's always one though
<popey> :D
<popey> ok, will put that on the back burner for now
<spd106> There was that guy who asked about matroska too
<popey> it's low priority - only one comment
<popey> indeed
<popey> i don't even know if ffmpeg supports matroska
<spd106> What's support like amongst the media players?
<popey> well, I was surprised that the totem auto codec download thing just worked
<spd106> Totem plays them, but vlc choked on one I made
<popey> I had a copy of $TV_PROGRAMME that I wanted to watch, and totem did the business
<popey> erk
<popey> back burner then :)
<spd106> so did mplayer
<popey> we know ogg and flv work
<popey> i know the suggestion of multiple audio tracks in one video came up too
<popey> this could needlessly bulk up the video sizes too
<popey> I mean, nobody wants to download a video with 10 languages when they only "need" one do they?
<popey> or do they?
<spd106> Something for the future
<popey> then again, do we really want to host 10 copies of the video
<popey> for each of the languages
<spd106> depends on demand really
<popey> indeed
<popey> ok, matroska, multiple audio tracks deferred
<popey> 5 mins left, lets figure out when the next meeting will be now..
<popey> 24th?
<spd106> Fine with me
<spd106> When are you back from hols?
<popey> is 8pm good or should we go back to the 4pm slot we had previously?
<popey> 21st
<spd106> I prefer this time to earlier
<popey> ditto
<popey> kids go to bed at 7pm, so time for me to grab some food and a glass of vino
<popey> ok, will shedule next meet for 24th@8pm BST
<popey> thanks for the help Webspot spd106 RobV, much appreciated!
<RobV> my pleasure. :)
<popey> I'll update the schedule and will mail the list with the thoughts from today
<spd106> Thanks popey
<popey> (and now I am a fridge editor I can add my own meetings to the fridge calendar Muhahahahaahaha)
<RobV> first the fridge, then world domination
<RobV> popey: one last question/comment from me: are videos already being categorized? I find the website hard to navigate if I'm looking for a specific screencast
<popey> not much, what kind of categories would you like?
<popey> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1123 woot, added already :)
<RobV> Installation / Administration / Networking, etc?
<RobV> At least, that's what I'd look for if I were looking for a samba screencast, for example
<popey> ok, will add some extra categories
<popey> i haven't actually categorised any of the MoS ones
<popey> which is daft :)
<RobV> Just noticed that too :P
<popey> well, other than categorising for the purposes ofthe rss feeds :)
<popey> which I had to do
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Canonical Desktop Team | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-09-11
<nealmcb> @schedule denver
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Denver: 11 Sep 09:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 13:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 06:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 09:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 06:00: Edubuntu
<ajmitch> far too early in the morning for me
<nealmcb> ajmitch: I can imagine!
* ajmitch had hoped that they'd change the meeting time at least once, but no luck so far
<soren> @schedule Copenhagen
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 11 Sep 17:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 21:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu
<Balkhog> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 11 2007, 07:43:06 - Next meeting: Server Team meeting in 7 hours 16 minutes
<zul> @schedule montreal
<ubotu> Schedule for America/Montreal: 11 Sep 11:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 15:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 16:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 08:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 11:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 08:00: Edubuntu
<juliux> @schedule berlin
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 11 Sep 17:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 21:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu
<Balkhog> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 11 2007, 12:46:28 - Next meeting: Server Team meeting in 2 hours 13 minutes
<pschulz01> G'day
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Server Team meeting | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu
<mathiaz> hi all
<sommer> hello
<pschulz01> sommer: mathiaz Howdy.
<jdstrand> hi!
<nealmcb> saluton!
<soren> Hello!
<mathiaz> alright... Time to get started
<mathiaz> dendrobates won't be here
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 14:52. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] 
<mathiaz> The agenda for today is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mathiaz> hi keescook !
<soren> Hi, Kees!
<jdstrand> hi keescook !
<mathiaz> [TOPIC]  Setup TeamReporting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Setup TeamReporting
* jdstrand thinks keescook is pretty popular this morning
<keescook> hiya folks!
<keescook> that's what I get for being late.  ;)
<mathiaz> jono started an effort to implement reporting for each team part of Ubuntu
<mathiaz> the desktopteam, the kernelteam are already using it.
<mathiaz> everything is explained here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamReporting
<mathiaz> the first step is to Nominate one or more people to overlook the team reporting
<mathiaz> I'd be happy to do that. Anyone else would like to help me ?
* soren hides behind his chair
<dantalizing> I'll help out
<Zic> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: Current meeting: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 21:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu
<pschulz01> I'm completely clear what get's copies where on the 22nd of each month.
<mathiaz> dantalizing: great ! I'll contact you to see how we can work together.
<soren> Rock!
<dantalizing> ok
<mathiaz> [ACTION]  mathiaz and dantalizing will look after TeamReporting
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz and dantalizing will look after TeamReporting
<mathiaz> [TOPIC]  Talk about specifications tracking and the need to clean them
<MootBot> New Topic:  Talk about specifications tracking and the need to clean them
<nealmcb> I sent out an email last night about this agenda item.  It agenda item started with my note about the outdated wiki "talk" page from 2005: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/talkd
<nealmcb> Ive had some frustration in the4 past - not easy to see which blueprints are current, what current status is
<nealmcb> Even this Bug 111610: can't see what is proposed for sprint, but not accepted
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 111610 in blueprint "let us see which blueprints have been proposed for a sprint" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/111610
* pschulz01 should have had a 'not' in his previous sentance, but he thinks he "get's it" now.
<nealmcb> So one thing is I'd like to understand our process for working with blueprints and encourage folks to keep things more up-to-date
<mathiaz> There a lots of blueprints related to ubuntu-server
<nealmcb> I also not lots of interest for a long time in various ways to make it easier to set up and administer common services and wonder if we should start using a PPA to try out things like ebox
<nealmcb> yup
<soren> nealmcb: We haven't got a set process (apart from what Launchpad encourages).
<mathiaz> but nobody really looked after them as there wasn't any ubuntu server team dedicated to that.
<pschulz01> What's a PPA?
<Kamping_Kaiser> pschulz01, personal package archvie iirc
<nealmcb> e.g. who can assign the team to a blueprint?  who can change importance?
<mathiaz> I agree that we need to clean things.
<soren> pschulz01: Personal Package Archive. It's like your own personal Ubuntu derivative.
<Kamping_Kaiser> launchpad lets you create them now.
<pschulz01> Ta.
<soren> Kamping_Kaiser: Only if you're a member of launchad beta tester team.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: may be we could try to clean things out by little step.
<Kamping_Kaiser> soren, i'm not a memeber of the team, and i'm pretty sure i have an otpion in my LP account
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I remember having a hard time with ldap related things.
<soren> Kamping_Kaiser: That's a *very* recent change, then.
<nealmcb> soren: yup - in the last few weeks
<soren> Much more recent than that.
<soren> I don't think it'll actually let you, but it's off topic anyway :)
<nealmcb> I've created a PPA
<mathiaz> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/ has a list of tracked blueprints
<mathiaz> so the first step could be to go through the wiki pages and figure out which one are specification
<mathiaz> then subscribe ubuntu-server to it.
<mathiaz> so that we can get a list of specifications in one place.
<mathiaz> after than we can start cleaning things.
<soren> nealmcb: You're also a member of the beta tester team..
<nealmcb> can any ubuntu-server member subscribe and unsubscribe  the team from a spec?
<mathiaz> I think so
<nealmcb> soren: right - that is what Kamping_Kaiser said
<soren> nealmcb: I think any lp user can. :)
<soren> Kamping_Kaiser: au contraire.
<soren> whoops
<nealmcb> soren: oops - I misread that - sorry
<soren> nealmcb: Nope. Quite the opposite. He said he's not a member.
<mathiaz> so what do you think about my proposed plan ?
<nealmcb> mathiaz: one fertile place to look for blueprints to subscribe the team to is the list of all the specs of all the team members
<soren> So... What do we do? Go through the specs and clean them up? I think it's a good idea.
<nealmcb> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+specworkload
<nealmcb> the "spec workload"
<mathiaz> the first step would be to go through the wiki pages tagged as CategorySpec and make sure that the one related to server have ubuntu-server subscribed
<nealmcb> I think marking old specs as done or superceded by another spec  in their wiki page would also help
<mathiaz> nealmcb: sure. That's also needed.
<nealmcb> mathiaz: but only ones that are relatively current
<mathiaz> nealmcb: I think we need to have the big picture first
<mathiaz> nealmcb: and then from the list we can start purging/merging the specs
<nealmcb> that would be a whole lot of specs....  perhaps we can do the big picture on a wiki page, rather than as team subscriptions?
<nealmcb> easier to organize....
<mathiaz> well. That would be another wiki page... and blueprints.lp.net is specifically made for that.
<mathiaz> b.lp.net also help to keep track of dependencies
<mathiaz> if the wiki page is a Spec, it should have an entry in LP
<mathiaz> so it'S just a matter subscribing ubuntu-server to it.
<nealmcb> I'm afraid we would end up with so many out-of-date specs that people would get lost or daunted.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: yes. The second step would be two purge the spec list from b.lp.net
<mathiaz> /two/too/
<nealmcb> who can set priorities for specs?
<soren> nealmcb: Owners of the spec and Ubuntu drivers.
<soren> IIRC
<nealmcb> how many ubuntu drivers are on the server team?
<mathiaz> none IIRC
<soren> none
<soren> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-drivers/+members
<mathiaz> so - what'S the action on this topic ?
<nealmcb> I guess I want to look at the options we've discussed a bit more
<nealmcb> and how well the various tools would support blueprint triage
<mathiaz> ok... We'll continue to discuss that on the ML
<mathiaz> nealmcb: would you mind sending an email to continue this discussion ?
<nealmcb> will do
<soren> Right. We should also remember that the Launchpad team always is open to input. If we need the blueprint management to change to be useful, it should change.
<nealmcb> yeah - I've got some bugs in :-)
<nealmcb> exporting lp relationship data as xml would help also
<mathiaz> [ACTION]  nealmcb will send an email to ubuntu-server ml about blueprints cleaning
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nealmcb will send an email to ubuntu-server ml about blueprints cleaning
<nealmcb> do we want to discuss PPAs also?
<nealmcb> or later?
<mathiaz> [TOPIC]  Update on the tasksel tasks
<MootBot> New Topic:  Update on the tasksel tasks
<soren> Right.
<soren> The blueprint is https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-server-tasks
<mathiaz> dendrobates wanted to talk about adding new tasks
<soren> I've just linked it to my branch of the ubuntu seeds, where I've added the print-server task.
<soren> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~shawarma/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.gutsy.server-tasks
<soren> If anyone has some good, concrete suggestions for new tasks, just tell me, or even create a branch of ubuntu-seeds of your own.
<pschulz01> mathiaz: Are we discussing the blueprint itself?
<mathiaz> you've just added a printserver ?
<mathiaz> which package do you think should be added to the task ?
<pschulz01> email server
<pschulz01> openVPN server
<soren> mathiaz: http://tinyurl.com/3czchw
<soren> mathiaz: I've requested input from our printing expert, but he hasn't gotten back to me yet.
<soren> pschulz01: Openvpn server is a good idea!
<mathiaz> is openvpn in main ?
<mathiaz> nope
* pschulz01 as to set one up at some stage in the near future and is very confused about it all.
<soren> no
<pschulz01> has
<soren> pschulz01: This won't help you much, I'm afraid.
<soren> Tasks are mere a selection of packages.
<mathiaz> I don't think we can an openvpn task then
<pschulz01> soren: Something I've been thinking about.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaulSchulz/UbuntuServerDocumentation
<soren> mathiaz: It could get promoted, I guess.
<mathiaz> soren: hum... printconf is in universe
<soren> mathiaz: YEs.
<mathiaz> soren: so you'd have to get it into main before it gets in printer-server task
<soren> mathiaz: It is also just a suggestion. If Till thinks it's a really good idea, we could file a MIR for it.
<soren> mathiaz: Yes, we don't enable universe by default, do we?
<soren> mathiaz: ..on servers?
<mathiaz> soren: not for the cds.
<mathiaz> on server yes.
<soren> Oh, ok.
<mathiaz> universe is enabled by default on universe since feisty
<soren> Well.. It's no problem then.
<soren> It could work, then.
<nealmcb> so are you saying we can have tasks that use packages in universe?
<mathiaz> hum... I don't think so.
<soren> Well, technically yes. Politically... Dunno.
<nealmcb> got it
<mathiaz> Because tasks are provided with the cd
<mathiaz> so packages have to be on the cd
<soren> mmm....
<soren> No.
<Mithrandir> no, you should not have tasks that include packages in universe.
<mathiaz> and we don'T ship universe packages on cd
<soren> Mithrandir: Ok.
<pschulz01> mathiaz: While I like the idea, of tasks, I this it could be done as an 'after the fact' installation step.
<mathiaz> pschulz01: you can run tasksel after you've installed your system
<mathiaz> soren: are the other packages in main ?
<soren> mathiaz: AFAIR, yes.
<pschulz01> mathiaz: That's OK.. but I installed two servers today which just need the the minimal server install.
<soren> mathiaz: I'll check it before I go any further with it, of course.
<mathiaz> soren: so you're waiting for feedback from our printing expert
<soren> mathiaz: Yes.
<mathiaz> soren: and then try to get a task added
<soren> mathiaz: Yes.
<mathiaz> soren: I don't know if it's too late in the release cycle for that.
<soren> mathiaz: It's not.
<soren> mathiaz: It needs to be soon, but it's not too late yet.
<mathiaz> soren: great then.
<nealmcb> when is the freeze on tasks?
<soren> Well... Since tasks are really just an easy way to isntall a set of packages we already support... it's not very intrusive at all.
<mathiaz> anyone else has a idea about packages that should be added to the print-server task ?
<nealmcb> soren: I guess they need documentation, so certainly before string freeze
<soren> nealmcb:Yes, I guess they are translatable strings.
<pschulz01> soren: Have you set up a print-server with these packages?
<nealmcb> soren: I meant install documentation, but yes
<soren> pschulz01: Nope.
<mathiaz> soren: Seems that you know what you've got to do.
<mathiaz> let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC]  Choose an official MTA postfix/exim
<MootBot> New Topic:  Choose an official MTA postfix/exim
<mathiaz> dendrobates asked to raise this point.
<nealmcb> thanks, soren!
* lamont thought it was postfix...
<mathiaz> I'm not sure what he meants by that.
<lamont> it probably refers to the fact that both are in main
<soren> mathiaz: Well, for one thing it would be useful for knowing which MTA to install for the mail-server task :)
<mathiaz> isn't that postfix ?
<lamont> postfix was chosen pre-warty as the official MTA, installed in warty and hoary (and breezy???), then dropped since grandma doesn't need an MTA
<mathiaz> keescook: do you have any issue with supported two MTA in main ?
<soren> mailx depends on "exim4 | mail-transport-agent".
<soren> lamont: Right, and since then we (allegedly) haven't had a preferred mta.
<lamont> that's because it's synced from debian, and one specifies $real-package | $virtual-package
<keescook> mathiaz: nope, (we already do)
<pschulz01> To throw something in.. one 'complaint' I have heard recently is that 'mutt' requires postfix, when the end user wanted to use exim... the dependency is "postfix | mail-transport-agent"
<soren> lamont: I know.
<soren> lamont: But if we truly preferred postfix, we'd change that sort of thing.
<lamont> pschulz01: that's not requiring postfix.  that's installing postfix if you don't have an MTA already
<lamont> soren: I did once...
<soren> pschulz01: Then it doesn't require postfix.
<lamont> pschulz01: apt-get install mutt exim4 (or have exim4 installed before installing mutt)
<soren> pschulz01: exim4 will fulfill the dependency too and not force postfix upon the user.
<pschulz01> all: Ta.. I'll pass that on..
<lamont> soren: the question is: do we care enough to for those packages _just_ to s/exim4/postfix/?
<soren> I think actually the discussion arose at the sprint in July where Rick and I discussed that some packages said "postfix | m-t-a" and others said "exim4 | m-t-a"
* Kamping_Kaiser thinks having no mta is loony
<lamont> Kamping_Kaiser: that's a different discussion
<Kamping_Kaiser> lamont, ok
<soren> Kamping_Kaiser: On a desktop?
<soren> lamont: I don't. :)
<lamont> (on a server it makes sense, on the desktop, it's lunacy, especially if it's grandma's desktop)
<Kamping_Kaiser> soren, i'm thinking more of the servers actualy, but its somewhat aplicable to desktops
<soren> Kamping_Kaiser: I'd love to discuss it at a different time :)
<pschulz01> Kamping_Kaiser: It's another service that isn't needed on a desktop/workstation. I'm thinking of 'network appliance'.
<lamont> (an MTA on the desktop, for the "typical" user means that eventually we fill up their disk with mail messages that they don't even know to read.
<soren> To get back on track... Do we care enough to prefer one of the other?
<sommer> for what it's worth I vote for Postfix as "official MTA"
<pschulz01> lamont: exactlly.
<lamont> soren: I cared enough to make the change when we were shipping postfix installed by default, and was then a big supporter of the "stop installing postfix by default" campaign
<mathiaz> soren: so the issue is to fix packages which specifies ""exim4 | m-t-a" ?
<mathiaz> sommer: what is documented in the ubuntu server guide ?
<sommer> another point for Postfix is it's currently documented better than exim.
<nealmcb> and what do we suggest in documentation, in ubotu and in the support channels
<pschulz01> soren: Can the 'ubuntu-server' claim this decision, given that we are the ones that will be caring the most about it?
<sommer> mathiaz: Postfix and Exim
* lamont would be happy to make the changes in main again
<pschulz01> soren: (do you think?_
<lamont> s/happy/willing/  :)
<soren> The advantage of doing an s/exim4/postfix/ in all cases would be that it avoids confusion between two users who don't care which m-t-a- they've got, but care about being able to exchange experiences about the m-t-a their system has chosen to provide them with.
<mathiaz> pschulz01: I think we'll have to discuss that ubuntu-devel anyway
<soren> pschulz01: Yes, I belive so.
<pschulz01> mathiaz: Yes...
<soren> pschulz01: For any other team, it's a service rather than a detail they need to specifically worry about.
<soren> But yes, of course we need to run it by everyone else.
<lamont> mathiaz: since desktop doesn't install an mta, we can assert that they don't care
<soren> ..but my stance in that discussion is that it's our decision.
<lamont> (as long as we don't force postfix over exim, which will cause um... issues)
<lamont> s/will/would/
<nealmcb> what does "force" mean there?
<soren> lamont: Would adding postfix to a mail-server task be considered "forcing postfix over exim"?
<mathiaz> soren: so you're suggestion is to s/exim/postfix/ in the package control file.
<mathiaz> soren: ?
<pschulz01> mathiaz: soren: It would be possible to argue the same on other packages as well.
<soren> mathiaz: I don't have a strong postfix preference, but yes, I belive it would be a good idea to unify it.
<pschulz01> mathiaz: soren: eg. kubuntu, edubutu and their desktop packages.
<mathiaz> soren: ok. Could you send an email to ubuntu-devel to discuss that changes ?
<soren> pschulz01: Huh?
<soren> mathiaz: Sure.
<Kamping_Kaiser> what about the ltsp (edubuntu) server?
<nealmcb> default to postfix, but don't break things if user specifies exim4?
<mathiaz> [ACTION]  soren will send an email to ubuntu-devel about using postfix as default package in control files.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will send an email to ubuntu-devel about using postfix as default package in control files.
<pschulz01> nealmcb: +1
<lamont> nealmcb: exactly
<Kamping_Kaiser> nealmcb, sounds nice
<mathiaz> [TOPIC]  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
<pschulz01> soren: Just arguing that thee will be other packages with similar logic.
<soren> lamont: I.e. don't violate debian policy :)
<lamont> backuppc, logcheck, mailman, mailx are the main packages affected
<lamont> soren: yeah..
<mathiaz> Previous meeting log is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20070828
<Kamping_Kaiser> iirc debians default mta is exim4 isnt it?
<lamont> yes
<soren> Kamping_Kaiser: Sounds right.
<mathiaz> DocDay was organised - The KnowledgeBase wiki page has been updated.
<lamont> and that is precisely what leads to the Depends: line for debian (and synced packages)
<mathiaz> sommer: thanks for updating the php5 documentation.
<sommer> no problem
<mathiaz> sommer: I've seen a couple of patches for the ubuntu server guide about it, right ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> lamont, just wondering if its saner to default to exim4 because less packages would need changing (i have nfi, fwiw)
<sommer> mathiaz: Yep, the first was a very minor update and the second was some content on php5-cgi
<mathiaz> sommer: thanks for that.
<sommer> it's currently being reviewed, I believe.
<mathiaz> sommer: does the ubuntu server guide needs more change ?
<sommer> welcome
<mathiaz> sommer: how accurate is it for gutsy ?
<sommer> the Dovecot part should be good...I haven't tested much else on Gutsy
<sommer> OpenLDAP section is probably okay...now that I think about it
<sommer> I can review the other packages if you want.
<mathiaz> sommer: that's be great - if you could review some sections of the server guide.
<pschulz01> sommer: link?
<sommer> https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/server/C/
<pschulz01> sommer: Ta
<mathiaz> is someone else interested in updating/reviewing the ubuntu server guide ?
<sommer> that's for feisty anyway
<pschulz01> mathiaz: Yes
<mathiaz> pschulz01: great ! Could you coordinate with sommer on the section you'd like to review ?
<Kamping_Kaiser> isnt string freeze tomorrow?
<nealmcb> string freeze is thursday....
<sommer> cool we should be able to cover more ground
<pschulz01> sommer: I need to go through the entire document anyway.. wit a couple of new servers.
<mathiaz> sommer pschulz01: and add an item in the Roadmap
<Kamping_Kaiser> nealmcb, thats my tomorrow
<nealmcb> :-)
<sommer> mathiaz: sure I'll add links to what I'm working on
<mathiaz> [ACTION]  sommer pschulz01 will start to review the ubuntu server guide
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer pschulz01 will start to review the ubuntu server guide
<nealmcb> we need someone in Hawaii to work on it :-)
<mathiaz> [ACTION]  sommer will add an item to the Roadmap
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer will add an item to the Roadmap
<nealmcb> ...except for that little detail about it being UTC and all....
<mathiaz> [TOPIC]  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: how is the factoids update going ?
<nealmcb> I got a list of the biggest outages in the roadmap
<nealmcb> and a bit of text for 2 of them.  the mail discussion has helped with how to word them
<nealmcb> I welcome suggestions, and will continue working on them
<mathiaz> nealmcb: the list seems great ! Thanks for putting this up.
<mathiaz> nealmcb: may be you could send an email to ubuntu-server with the list of some preliminary text for each fact ?
<nealmcb> ok
<mathiaz> [ACTION]  nealmcb will send an email to ubuntu-server with the proposed factoids.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nealmcb will send an email to ubuntu-server with the proposed factoids.
<mathiaz> As for AppArmor, the kernel has been updated with the latest version.
<mathiaz> I'm currently testing the user space update.
<keescook> mathiaz: jj sent the kernel patch for syslog to kyle
<mathiaz> But still have problems with the livecd, due to stacked file system.
<mathiaz> keescook: Ok. I've pinged BenC which pointed me to kyle.
<mathiaz> so the new userspace utils work with the kernel module
<mathiaz> except for the aa-genprof tool
<keescook> cool.  and this is from http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mathiaz/apparmor/ubuntu-mathiaz/ tree, correct?
<mathiaz> keescook: yes. everything is there.
<mathiaz> upstream has released a tarbal for 2.1
<mathiaz> actually it's a pre-release.
<mathiaz> As I've been following their svn closely it should work well
<keescook> excellent.  Looking at the changelog, what is this for:  * Remove apparmor-utils depends on bsdutils
<mathiaz> keescook: it's a warning from lintian
<mathiaz> keescook: bsdutils is part of base
<keescook> oh, duh.  :P
<mathiaz> keescook: so if you wanna depend on it, you need to depend on specific version
<keescook> and you've totally dropped apparmor-modules-source?  Isn't it handy for helping the kernel team do merges?
<mathiaz> I don't think so.
<keescook> okay
<mathiaz> kyle got the source from their svn tree.
<keescook> I'll test this too, and upload it.
<mathiaz> ok. cool.
<mathiaz> Is there anything else ?
<keescook> not from me.  :)
<jdstrand> I'll mention since dendrobates is not here that I will be looking at ldap-auth-client and trying to finish it up
<mathiaz> jdstrand: great. Thanks.
<mathiaz> So the next meeting will take place in two weeks.
<mathiaz> same time, same place.
<nealmcb> thanks all
<sommer> cool thanks all
<mathiaz> thanks for stopping by.
* keescook waves
<jdstrand> bye!
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 16:16.
<nealmcb> NOT
<soren> I've filed a bug against mootbot about the time being off, by the way :)
<pschulz01> Goodnight all!
<nealmcb> soren: thanks - I was about to do the same thing
<soren> nealmcb: :)
<nealmcb> soren: as a subscriber to time-nuts@febo.com I'm a certified nut :-)
<soren> nealmcb: I have no clue what that is :)
<nealmcb> a list for folks that love not just ntp, but all kinds of high-precision time stuff
<Balkhog> hi..
<soren> nealmcb: Oh, I see.
<soren> nealmcb: Yes, in that case, MootBot must make you cry :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
<nealmcb> soren: yup
<soren> @schedule Copenhagen
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 11 Sep 21:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 22:00: Xubuntu Developers
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
<Keybuk> mdz, mjg59, sabdfl: TB time?
<mjg59> Keybuk: Sure
<Keybuk> SMS'd the other two ...
<Keybuk> mdz won't be around for another 20 mins, and no response from sabdfl
<Keybuk> since two of the issues are yours, I don't think we have a reasonable Q to discuss them
<mjg59> Yeah. Wait for mdz?
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> let's defer until half past
<soren> Since I haven't heard anything, I take it you won't be handling my core-dev application today?
<Keybuk> soren: I've gotten completely confused and baffled as to what the core-dev process is now
<soren> Keybuk: I can relate to that :)
<soren> Keybuk: IIUIC, motu-council looks it over to  see if it's complete crack. If not, they forward to you. You're then supposed to invite the applicant to a TB meeting to do an interview.
<soren> "The TB will review and respond, usually setting up an appointment to attend a meeting."
<soren> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewDeveloperProcess
<Keybuk> I guess we'll do it later then
<soren> As in "not today"?
<Keybuk> aha, an mdz
<Keybuk> mdz: shall we start?
<mdz_> surely
<mdz_> who's here?
<Keybuk> me and mjg59
<mdz_> tried sabdfl?
<Keybuk> sent an SMS
<Keybuk> no response
<mdz_> ok
<mjg59> Hi
<mdz_> so we discussed the compiz issue in some detail already, but we didn't take a decision
<mdz_> knowing it is near and dear to his heart, I'm loathe to vote on it without him
<mdz_> s/him/sabdfl/
<mjg59> The majority of the feedback on the mailing lists appeared to be "If it causes problems, don't use it by default", but very little analysis of the issues appeared
<mjg59> mdz_: On the other hand, our next meeting is two days before beta
<mdz_> it didn't get as much of a response as I expected it would
<mjg59> One technical issue that I've been made aware of since then - Xv doesn't work at all on 965 with compiz
<mdz_> bug?
<mjg59> I've discussed this with Intel, and it's not fixable.
<mdz_> or something more insidious?
<Keybuk> why isn't it fixable?
<mjg59> They only support composited video with EXA
<Keybuk> "not fixable" is a very terminal answer
<Keybuk> X11esign flaw?
<Keybuk> X11 design flaw?
<mjg59> Issue with the architecture of the driver
<Keybuk> so it's fixable, just with a large amount of work
<mjg59> The textured video requires acceleration functionality that's disabled if XAA is used with composite
<Keybuk> or by enabling EXA?
<mjg59> Right. Intel won't do that work, and we have no docs
<mjg59> EXA is the other option, but there are still stability issues with EXA and the tiling code in the 965 driver
<Keybuk> it strikes me that we're repeatedly in a rock-and-hard-place situation:
<Keybuk>  - drivers aren't good enough to support bling
<mdz_> mjg59: if we took a late decision to change the compiz default, given that it's been the focus of a large chunk of our efforts for 7.10 and the community has been demanding it for a year, do you have a suggestion as to how we would message such a decision?
<Keybuk>  - without requirements of bling, there's no incentive to make the drivers good enough
<mjg59> Intel are workign on the basis that composited desktops won't be ready for rolling out until EXA is stable enough anyway, so it's not a concern
<mjg59> mdz_: Simply that after spending a longer period evaluating it, we've decided that the technology still isn't quite ready
<mdz_> mjg59: ...again
<mjg59> As I've noted before, I'm disappointed that we got to this stage despite effectively no progress having been made on the technical issues in the intervening time
<mjg59> I think that's a failure in our development process
<Keybuk> what do you identify the failure as, specifically?
<mjg59> Keybuk: The decision to target the spec at gutsy without having ensured that the reasons we failed to accept it for feisty had been rectified
<mdz_> #@!$ xchat
<mdz_> apologies
<mjg59> mdz_: What did you last see?
<mdz_> mjg59: we didn't decide to pursue it because we thought the issues were resolved
<mdz_> we decided to push ahead, follow the bleeding edge, and see it through
<mjg59> mdz_: That would seem understandable if we'd been putting any work into resolving those issues, but we haven't
<mdz_> our users are early adopters, and support for this decision was strong
<smurf> What are other bling-enabled distros doing? Ignore the problems?
<mdz_> mjg59: and when you say "we", who do you mean?
<mdz_> compiz?  x.org?  Michael?
<mjg59> Most of the problems don't turn up with Xgl, so Novell don't have this problem. Red Hat aren't going to enable compiz for some time yet.
<mjg59> mdz_: The Ubuntu development community
<smurf> ah. Thx
<mjg59> The amount of work that RH are contributing to this is moderate, but not enough to get it working properly in less than a year or so from now
<Keybuk> you've just said above that the Ubuntu development community cannot help fix the issues
<Keybuk> and that only Intel can
<mdz_> we aren't exactly overflowing with graphics driver developers
<Keybuk> (and they won't)
<mdz_> here in the Ubuntu development community
<mjg59> Keybuk: No, that's an issue with one specific driver. The EXA issues could mostly be fixed up by anyone with graphics experience, and that's starting to happen.
<mjg59> mdz_: Indeed. So no matter how hard we press ahead in terms of the bleeding edge, none of the problems get solved and we're left with exactly the same issues that caused us to punt it in feisty
<Keybuk> are some of those people running Ubuntu?
<Keybuk> in which case, they're arguably members of our development community
<mjg59> Keybuk: There are a moderate number of people at the X summit running Ubuntu, but most of the driver-side technical community seem to be using Fedora
<Keybuk> have we, by positioning it as a feature for gutsy, motivated anybody to work on fixing the underlying issues?
<mjg59> No
<Keybuk> since that's the only real power we, the TB, have
<mjg59> The fundamental issues are currently being worked on by RH staff and nobody else
<Keybuk> why?
<Keybuk> why are non-RH people not working on this?
<mjg59> Nobody at XDS is running compiz
<Keybuk> XDS?
<mjg59> X Development Summit
<mdz_> what used to be called XDC
<mjg59> We get XDC and XDS each year
<Keybuk> so the question remains, why isn't anybody interested in this enough to fix the issues?
<mjg59> Because nobody who has the skills to fix it is interested in running the software
<Keybuk> and why aren't they doing that?
<mjg59> The general feeling in the X community is pretty much that compiz is not of high quality
<mdz_> is it considered a bad idea?  or just uninteresting for some reason?
<Keybuk> not of high quality because they haven't fixed the drivers? :p
<Keybuk> or not of high quality for other reasons?
<mjg59> The technical aspects of a composited desktop are interesting, but there are more fundamental issues that people want to fix first
<mjg59> People want to get X up to the Win2K level before trying to match Vista
<Keybuk> at GUADEC, the issues seemed to be input/output hotplug and input redirection
<mjg59> Yes. Input hotplug is almost solved, and there are plans for input redirection
<Keybuk> uh, insert "that people want to fix first" in there
<Keybuk> are those still the issues, or are there additional issues before composited desktop?
<mjg59> Novell are interested in working on input redirection, because that gets them to the point where Xgl basically works fully
<mjg59> They have no real interest in working on aiglx right now, as far as I can see
<Keybuk> why are we using AIGLX instead of Xgl?
<mdz_> because keithp told sabdfl that we should
<mjg59> It's the more elegant solution, and up until recently (I'm less sure about the present) the performance of it on intel was dire
<mdz_> let's look at this from a slightly different angle
<mdz_> rather than evaluating the merits of compiz itself
<mjg59> Sorry, that is the performance of Xgl
<Keybuk> mdz_: sure, I was just asking questions there since I don't really know much about the politics of this
<mdz_> what is the effect we will have on Ubuntu if we make this change, vs. the effect we will have if we leave it alone?
<mdz_> the first choice will, I'm sure, disappoint a lot of community members and result in a lot of bad press
<mjg59> Is "this change" removing compiz or shipping it?
<mdz_> the second will result in functional problems for some users
<mdz_> mjg59: the change you propose, to disable it by default
<mjg59> Bear in mind that most people consider the stable release to be the status quo
<mjg59> (That is, no compiz)
<mdz_> mjg59: AIUI, compiz isn't enabled on upgrade
<mdz_> so nothing changes for them
<mdz_> (either way)
<mjg59> Some moderate proportion of people reinstall on updates
<mdz_> a moderate proportion of people also install a release other than the current one
<mjg59> Anyway, yes, it's clear to me that not providing compiz by default will be a publicity issue
<mdz_> (other being older)
<mdz_> I'm fairly certain I understand who the people are who would be disappointed by disabling it
<mdz_> however, I don't feel that I have a good understanding of the people who are affected by the problems
<mjg59> But I also question the media response to finding that there are obvious functionality issues
<mdz_> how to characterize them, some feeling of their number
<mdz_> casual desktop users?  not really
<mjg59> I dislike the idea of basing the decision on "Which people will be more angry"
<mdz_> that's not what I'm suggesting
<mdz_> "whose interests are we representing?"
<mjg59> The people we're most likely to alienate are going to be the more technical users
<mjg59> Unless they all just turn compiz off, which is a possibility...
<mdz_> I question whether it's obvious enough how to turn it off
<Keybuk> before you suggest it, any functionality that has to first warn or remind you about it, clearly has something wrong with it
<mjg59> I suspect that we're going to run into the same problem that we did last time
<mdz_> I was not suggesting any such thing
<mjg59> That is, discussing things at length without reaching a decision
<Keybuk> that's like a form which is so complicated and unintuitive, that it has to pop up another dialog over top first telling you what you need to fill in
<Keybuk> (yes canonical admin, I'm looking at *you*)
<mdz_> Keybuk: what does mvo have to say about it?
<Keybuk> mdz_: "eep" (paraphrasing)
<mjg59> We need to decide what basis we're going to make the decision on
<mdz_> Keybuk: what was the question?
<mdz_> mjg59: there's not much guidance in the founding documents on that point
<Keybuk> mdz: basically that we've done so much work to get compiz ready, that it seems annoying to abandon it now
<Keybuk> especially since we've got little else to shout about gutsy
<mdz_> but intuitively, this body is responsible for evaluating technical correctness and merit
<mdz_> and I don't think there's much contention over this issue from a technical perspective: it's bleeding
<mjg59> Yes
<mdz_> that doesn't feel like a complete notion of our responsibility though
<Keybuk> sabdfl is at vmworld with no internet
<mdz_> I think we're also responsible for making such decisions on behalf of our users (and our potential users)
<mjg59> But it also seems that the decision to press for compiz in gutsy was not especially based on technical correctness
<mdz_> Keybuk: I tried to call him and didn't get through. does he have a phone?
<mjg59> And in that case, I would feel less comfortable about making a decision on it
<Keybuk> he responded to an SMS
<mdz_> I have him on the phone now
<mdz_> will get a response of some kind and relay it
* mvo wakes up. anything I need to respond to?
<Keybuk> mvo: read scrollback and comment :)
<Keybuk> got to switch pcs so I can make some dinner
<Keybuk> paste me anything below this line when I reappear
<Keybuk> :p
<nealmcb> Keybuk: didn't miss a things...
<mdz_> (still on the phone)
<mdz_> he is going to try to get online
<mdz_> but in a nutshell, still supports having it enabled by default
<mvo> I finished reading scrollback now and have little to add. the technical issues left (no redirected indirect rendering) are nothing we can fix at this stage we either have to accept it or try to workaround it by doing some hacks to try to detect when we have glx using apps that run in non-fullscreen mode
<mdz_> mjg59: do you think there is any quantitative way we can assess whether it works well for most of our current users?
<mjg59> mdz_: Not really, no
<mdz_> I feel a bit doomed either way, not having much in the way of concrete data to work from
<mvo> mjg59: I got positive feedback about basic video playback on a i965 but I can not confirm that myself
<mdz_> mvo: of the issues mjg59 has raised, can you tell us if they seem to be encountered frequently by users?
<mjg59> Some feedback on how many people are actually using it would be helpful, but since we don't enable it by default on upgrades it's quite possible that most of the people following gutsy aren't running it
<mdz_> mvo: do you get many bug reports about them?
<mdz_> mjg59: fair point
<mdz_> if I consider this from a technical perspective, then I can only agree with mjg59
<mdz_> correctness is not a question here
<mdz_> it has bugs
<mvo> we get a fair number of reports, but not that many about video/glx apps it seems. but its difficult to tell if people just bear with it because its still pre-beta or because they not encounter issues
<mvo> indeed, it has bugs
<mdz_> I do not think it has bugs which prevent people from using it
<mdz_> but it does give some people a bad experience
<mvo> and it will be less stable/reliable than metacity for sure (even if it itself would be bugfree it would trigger bugs in the drivers)
<mdz_> is there anyone lurking in the channel who would like to speak up about their experience with compiz?
<Mithrandir> I don't have a strong opinion either way, it worked fine for the half hour I cared to test it on my laptop.
<Amaranth> Hi
<Mithrandir> but I don't use it myself, since it doesn't support chained shortcuts.
<mvo> Amaranth does a lot of bug triage on compiz
<soren> I use it happily.
<mvo> Mithrandir: is there a bugreport about this?
<soren> I've set mplayer to use vo=x11. That works well enough.
<ian_brasil> i tried to enable it on an ATI Technologies Inc Radeon R250 and it made hals the screen go wavy and the fonts to distort
<Mithrandir> mvo: no, but metacity doesn't either, so I use openbox.  I understood it to be a design goal more than anything else, really.
<mdz_> soren: eek! that's unaccelerated
<mvo> Amaranth: what is your feeling about bugreport for glx artifacts and video issues?
<mvo> Mithrandir: aha, ok :)
<Amaranth> For compiz there are a bunch of little things (like most everything else) and a couple of 'big' issues. The xorg patch that breaks nvidia and intel/ati GL, and intel blitter not working with composite unless EXA is enabled
<soren> mdz_: Indeed. It's better than nothing and the machine is beefy enough to handle it.
<Amaranth> One of those we can fix, the other two need extensive driver work
<mdz_> Amaranth: which are the two?
<Amaranth> mvo: It's probably the most duped bug
<Amaranth> mdz_: The intel video and intel/ati gl
<mdz_> I'm finding it confusing to keep the different issues straight, honestly
<beuno> Compiz in gutsy works great out of the box in my intel 945
<Mithrandir> Amaranth: removing the xorg patch is contentious, since it's used by not only hildon, but also for inter-widget compositing in GTK.
<Amaranth> Mithrandir: Then we need the xserver 1.4 and nvidia's upcoming driver release to fix this
<Amaranth> Way too late for that
<Amaranth> Or we could just use Xgl ;)
<mdz_> I honestly don't think that the GL problems are a very big deal; 3D apps on Ubuntu are a tiny corner case
<mvo> bug #130325 is about the compiz/nvidia/glx issue
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 130325 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.22 "[nvidia-glx]  3D GL apps crash X when using compiz due to unmaked ABI change (gutsy)" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/130325
<mdz_> I'm quite sensitive to video breakage, though
<mdz_> I feel a bit uncertain about the general performance overhead compiz seems to introduce
<mdz_> the network-manager passphrase dialog consistently displays behind my windows, but I think metacity did that as well
<Amaranth> bug 111257
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 111257 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "totem crashes with 'BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation)' when using compiz and xserver-xorg-video-intel driver" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/111257
<mdz_> I have no problems whatsoever with video though
<mvo> both power and performance seems to be not that much of a issue from my experience. we patched the drivers to use xf86XVFillKeyHelperDrawable() so that basic video playback works
<mdz_> my workspace keyboard shortcuts still don't work by default, but they do with rotate cube
<mvo> even older machines can deal with the moderate requirements of our default settings
<Amaranth> mdz_: we have a plugin for that, should have been enabled
<mdz_> I see compiz using a substantial amount of CPU
<mvo> mdz_: sorry for that, I will be in london next week, I would love to debug it there
<mvo> (the keyboard shortcuts problem)
<mdz_> mvo: I won't be here, but will try to reproduce it in a VM or something before I go
<Amaranth> compiz won't work in a VM
<Amaranth> When do you see it using a lot of CPU?
<Amaranth> The only issue I've heard of is flash
<Amaranth> And that chews CPU whether I use compiz or not
<mdz_> it seems to use a steady 1% or so of my desktop and laptop CPUs just displaying top in a terminal
<mdz_> its accumulated CPU time is almost as high as firefox's
<mvo> mdz_: ok, good to know. I will put it up in my priorities than, I was kind of hoping that I could have a look directly at the machine
<Mithrandir> Amaranth: flash is horrible due to its design.
<Mithrandir> (it has an event timer that ticks)
<mdz_> mvo: if necessary, I'll create a login for you on my desktop before I go
<mdz_> mvo: can you really not reproduce this?  I just have my workspace shortcuts set to alt+1, alt+2, etc. and they aren't recognized in the default config
<mdz_> but anyway, we're straying from the matter at hand
<mdz_> mvo,Amaranth: you two are closest to the action here
<mdz_> mvo,Amaranth: do you think this is good enough to be our default?
<Amaranth> I think so, yes
<mvo> within the limitations outlined in my mail to ubuntu-devel yes
<Amaranth> It still has some rough spots but if we don't get it out there at some point it'll never get good enough
<mjg59> Amaranth: The rough spots are issues that are not directly related to compiz
<Amaranth> mjg59: I meant aside from those
<mjg59> Shipping compiz won't make those problems get fixed faster
<mdz_> the (precious few) reviews I've seen of Gutsy alphas have not mentioned compiz at all
<mdz_> I suspect it simply wasn't enabled by default on their hardware
<Amaranth> mjg59: The little things all over the place people have troubles with
<Amaranth> mjg59: We'll never find all of them if we don't get more users
* bryce_ nods
<mvo> it is difficult to say how many people run google earth
<mvo> in windowed mode
<mvo> it comes down to: are we willing to accept the limitations and get the bling or keep it as it is without the bling
* beuno wonders how hard it would be to add the "compiz by default" in the installer as an option
<Amaranth> beuno: yay random button that users don't understand
<Keybuk> mvo: google earth doesn't even work properly for me in full screen mode
<mvo> as a middle-ground (assuming nvidia/xorg gets fixed) we could only enable it on nvidia as it everything should work there (including glx apps)
<mdz_> mvo: let's be clear; we only get the bling by default for a minority of users anyway
<mdz_> mvo: most users will need to explicitly turn it on or they won't see anything
<Amaranth> nvidia, ati, and intel users who do a fresh install of gutsy
<beuno> Amaranth, "Desktop Effects"?  Have it on by default if you wish, make it trivial to disable it before installing
<mvo> I'm not sure about this, intel is quite common and older ati are not that uncommon either
<mdz_> Amaranth: my understanding is "intel and some ATI"
<Amaranth> mdz_: right, Radeon X800 and older plus X1050
<mvo> and nvidia once people use restricted manager to install the driver
<mvo> that is currently enough to enable it
<mdz_> folks who enable the driver explicitly can easily enough turn it off if they aren't happy with the results
<mdz_> (as with effects in general)
<mvo> right
* mvo wonders if the hwdb-data could be used to try to figure out some percentages
<mdz_> mvo: if you can make a list of PCI IDs, yes
<bryce_> I just had dinner with AMD tonight, and they were very interested in hearing what ATI issues with compiz exist currently
<Amaranth> Other than fglrx+Xgl being the worst possible environment? :)
<mdz_> I don't think there's too much more to be said about this, we're starting to go in circles
<mdz_> mjg59,Keybuk: shall we take a vote?
<mvo> bryce_: details like missing texture_from_pixmap ;)
<Amaranth> Yeah, I think we've gone over it all
<mjg59> mdz_: On what basis are we making the decision?
* mvo nods
<mdz_> mjg59: guts and glory
<mjg59> Ha.
<mdz_> go with your heart
<mjg59> Ok. I go for not by default.
<mdz_> sabdfl votes on by default
<mdz_> (by proxy)
<Keybuk> on (no guts, no glory)
<mdz_> I vote on by default, largely due to the opinions of the engineers working on it, with a dash of "the only way out is through"
<mjg59> Ok, we stick with what we have
<mdz_> I hope it's for the best, this was a very difficult one
<mdz_> and I'm not certain by any means, but we need to move ahead
<mdz_> I'm perfectly happy to revisit this again if necessary
<mdz_> e.g., if feedback from beta is dire
<mjg59> Ok. Next up is automatix?
<mdz_> mjg59: I want to thank you for speaking up for quality on this issue; I agree with most everything you've said on this issue and might have taken the same position myself
<mdz_> right, automatix
<mjg59> Has everyone read the writeup?
<mdz_> I have
<mdz_> I meant to go back and classify the issues by severity
<mdz_> they range from "nitpick" through "killall -9 dpkg" with lots of in between
<mjg59> I don't think there's really too much to say on this - there's a clear desire from the community for this functionality, and automatix fills it nicely. On the other hand, it's pretty obvious that it has the potential to screw up a user's system in ways that are basically impossible to detect
<mdz_> I think it's clear that there are some problems which make its use questionable
<mdz_> the question is what to do about it
<Keybuk> what can we do about it?
<mjg59> I believe update-manager will refuse to perform between-distro upgrades if automatix is installed?
<mdz_> Keybuk: anything from "try to prevent its use" through "try to cooperate with them to produce a better result"
<mvo> mjg59: currently it does not, but its a planed feature
<Mithrandir> I think it's important to prevent this turning into some kind of an arms race.
<Mithrandir> so when we do the "refuse to upgrade" thing, we need to tell why we are doing it: it's not to punish anybody, but because we realistically don't believe we can successfully upgrade the system.
<mdz_> FWIW, I did invite the developer to the Gutsy UDS hoping to talk through this
<mvo>  but I would certainly prefer to detect and undo any damage than to let users out in the cold (especially since I expect that there will be some "cleanup" tool that will just rmove the traces)
<Keybuk> mdz_: trying to prevent use is a bit like asking them to put a sticker on the packet saying "use of this programme causes baby jesus to cry"
<Keybuk> mdz_: he declined, didn't he?
<mjg59> Working with our packaging system rather than outside it is pretty clearly a win
<mjg59> Providing a boilerplate package that can download, install and track the contents of a tarball would possibly help here
<mdz_> Keybuk: as I recall, he said he couldn't make it
<mdz_> mjg59: isn't that approximately alien?
<smurf> mjg59: One would think so, but your look at the thing suggests that at least one person thinks otherwise :-/
<mjg59> mdz_: Yeah, but for software that can't be distributed
<mjg59> Getting users to download a tarball and then run alien on it is harder
<mdz_> mjg59: have you received any response from the automatix developer?
<mjg59> No
<mdz_> do you think it would be worthwhile to explicitly contact them and start a dialog?
<mjg59> They've implied that they're working on a response, but also that they're very busy at the moment
<mjg59> So yes, that might be worthwhile
<mdz_> mjg59: I'm happy to ask that someone from the canonical community team speak to them if you'd prefer not to do it
<mjg59> That also works
<mdz_> ok, that's good enough for me
<mdz_> sladen: tracker?
<mdz_> I emailed Sebastien asking for his opinion prior to the meeting, but haven't heard back yet
<mdz_> I think his is a key opinion to get
<mjg59> If sladen's not here, I can cover the basic state as far as I can tell
<mjg59> But yeah, I think we want feedback from seb
<mdz_> I did find that the initial indexing made mutt basically unusable
<mjg59> The move to purely sqlite should help that
<Amaranth> Tracker is confusing, it worked great on feisty (aside from slowing down compiles)
<Keybuk> I still find that tracker kills my machine
<mdz_> anytime vi would sync anything, it would block for ages (>10 seconds)
<mdz_> I also find that deskbar doesn't seem to search tracker
<mjg59> But it's still lacking functionality like "Don't do mad stuff while on battery"
<Amaranth> The blocking and such seems to be a kernel problem
<mvo> I killed it when my ~/.cache/tracker went up to ~200mb or something
<mdz_> given there's no entry in the menu for it, I'm not sure how folks are expected to search it?
<mdz_> 874M    .cache/tracker
<mvo> it seems to ignore that the space gets low and just keeps indexing
<Amaranth> It's really fun downloading a map in a video game and having the extracting make the ipw3945 stall
<mjg59> Disk use is hardly unexpected
<mjg59> But it could pretty clearly be more intelligent about a lot of things
<Amaranth> But tracker is the most obvious symptom
<mjg59> Like not trying to index build directories in real time
<mjg59> Amaranth: We're still lacking any real investigation that demonstrates that problem
<mvo> mdz_: I think people search using the deskbar applet
<Keybuk> what uses tracker?
<mdz_> mvo: that doesn't work at all for me
<mjg59> We need a simple testcase that performs well on feisty and poorly on gutsy
<Amaranth> nautilus and deskbar
<Amaranth> mjg59: simple is the hard part :)
<Amaranth> mjg59: For me it's "sometimes downloading a map in $GAME breaks the whole system"
<mdz_> on my laptop, deskbar crashes when I type into it
<mjg59> Amaranth: The i/o patterns that tracker carries out aren't that complicated
<mdz_> on my desktop, it offers me lots of web search options but doesn't search my files
<Amaranth> mdz_: Could it be an upgrade issue?
<mdz_> Amaranth: it certainly could be, why?
<Amaranth> I mean, you have to turn the plugin on so unless the upgrade is overwriting your settings for what plugins to use you won't get tracker
<ajmitch> mjg59: no, but it will take a very long time to index when you have a few million files
<pochu> mdz_: there's a menu entry: Apps>Accesories>Tracker Search Tool. The other question is whether people is supposed to look there ;)
<mjg59> ajmitch: That's not the point
<mjg59> The argument is that something has changed in the kernel, and that this is why tracker is slower than in feisty
<mjg59> But we don't have a benchmark to determine the veracity of that
<mjg59> My measurements of tracker showed that it was entirely seek-bound
<mdz_> pochu: aha, I certainly didn't look there
<mjg59> That is, it was managing 20k/sec to disk because it was performing 80 seeks a second, which is the most my drive can maange
<pochu> Neither did I, but I saw it in a bug report :)
<Keybuk> the tracker problem seems to be to be closely related to the compiz problem
<Keybuk> how much blood-loss do we accept while on the bleeding edge
<Keybuk> do we want Ubuntu to be the latest and greatest technology
<Keybuk> or are we starting to need to stand back from the new stuff, and instead worry about how much is wrong with it?
<mdz_> tracker's effects affect many more users, and more drastically, I'd say
<mjg59> Upstream has been receptive to our complaints, but it's not clear how fast they're being fixed
<mdz_> it has a gconf key to turn it on/off, so it's trivial to change our mind
<Keybuk> a fundamental issue is what level of maturity do we require for Ubuntu features?
<mdz_> has anyone asked upstream whether they think they'll get there in the next few weeks?
<mdz_> seb is in the best position to know, I expect
<Amaranth> jamiemcc seems to be away
<mdz_> Keybuk: more than "sabdfl", less than "consumer"
<pochu> He said he was going to try to release 0.6.3 for tribe-6, so I'd expect it soon.
<Keybuk> I'm also reminded of mjg59's earlier comments to the effect that if people don't use something, they won't fix it
<Keybuk> which suggests if we ship tracker, it's more likely to get fixed anyway
<Amaranth> Keybuk: That was me :)
<mdz_> Keybuk: all indications are that our user base is somewhat more aggressive than conservative
<Keybuk> Amaranth: err, were you being angry about it?  that might have confused me <g>
<Amaranth> Keybuk: he was
<mdz_> though we are peeking around the corner to less experienced users
<Amaranth> mdz_: Been there for quite some time, you should hang out in #ubuntu for awhile :)
<Amaranth> Although I suppose by the nature of the thing if they found #ubuntu they're 'aggressive'
<mdz_> Amaranth: I think we mean different things by "experienced"
<mdz_> someone who uses an IRC client, to me, is not a novice
<Amaranth> I think gaim defaults to opening #ubuntu
<Amaranth> Haven't seen unconfigured gaim in awhile
<Keybuk> Amaranth: only if they create an IRC account in it?
<Seveas> don't people who use mirc on windows count?
<Seveas> there are quite a few of those, and they're very novice to linux
<mdz_> Seveas: to linux, yes
<Seveas> or chatzilla, following a link on the website
<Amaranth> I think mdz means Dell users
<mdz_> installing an operating system is not something that the average user attempts
<Seveas> complete computer illiterates sometimes find #ubuntu :)
<mdz_> it requires a certain adventurousness^Wreckless abandon
<Keybuk> talking of wreckless abandon, perhaps there is a time for that, and a different time for careful footsteps
<Keybuk> the latter being "LTS"
<pochu> welcome jamiemcc :)
<mdz_> jamiemcc: oh, hello. thanks for dropping by
<jamiemcc> hi pochu
<Amaranth> ah, there he is
<mdz_> jamiemcc: we're interested in your opinion about tracker being on by default in Ubuntu 7.10
<jamiemcc> mdz_: would like it in
<Amaranth> of course :)
<mdz_> jamiemcc: particularly in whether you think users will have a good experience
<jamiemcc> depends if https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tracker/+bug/135115
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 135115 in tracker "tracker causing very high disk useage/thrashing (dup-of: 131094)" [High,Confirmed] 
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 131094 in linux-source-2.6.22 "Heavy Disk I/O harms desktop responsiveness" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
<jamiemcc> can it be fixed?
<jamiemcc> a clean install fixes it
<jamiemcc> upgrades do not
<Amaranth> does it?
<jamiemcc> for me and others
<Amaranth> interesting
<mdz_> jamiemcc: a clean install? that's odd
<Amaranth> have you talked to the kernel team?
<jamiemcc> amaranth no
<jamiemcc> I am downloading tribe 3 to do a diff with tribe 5
<jamiemcc> and trying to figure out what config setting is causing it
<mdz_> jamiemcc: what about laptops indexing on battery life?  is that on the short term todo list?
<mdz_> s/ life//
<jamiemcc> yes we are aiming for next week
<jamiemcc> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/131094
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 131094 in linux-source-2.6.22 "Heavy Disk I/O harms desktop responsiveness" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
<jamiemcc> that is the bug that needs fixing
<mdz_> jamiemcc: I will escalate 131094 with the kernel team
<jamiemcc> ok thanks
<Amaranth> if that is fixed laptops should not be a problem
<Amaranth> not much of one anyway
<jamiemcc> well we will still do battery pause
<jamiemcc> we also have a monitor applet that needs polishing up
<mjg59> jamiemcc: As I noted before, the poor performance I was seeing was entirely due to the fact that it was seeking heavily in the berkeley db file
<mdz_> jamiemcc: do you happen to have a guess why the deskbar handler doesn't work for me?
<jamiemcc> mjg59: we now use sqlite
<mjg59> Which looked like a code issue, not a kernel issue
<mjg59> jamiemcc: Right. I need to blow away my cache and force a full reindex with the current code
<Amaranth> sqlite has been used since 0.6, no?
<jamiemcc> for index we used qdbm previously
<Amaranth> oh
<mdz_> mjg59: how did you collect seek statistics?
<mdz_> jamiemcc: I also have an issue where I have a large number of files which have been deleted out of my home directory (e.g., source trees) but still turn up in search results (spewing errors to stderr and creating empty list items)
<jamiemcc> mdz_: thats a known issue
<jamiemcc> which will be fixed shortly
<Amaranth> this is the inotify limit, isn't it?
<jamiemcc> by beta we should have most if not all of these issues resolved
<mdz_> jamiemcc: ok, doesn't sound major, that's good enough fo rme
<mdz_> any other questions around tracker?
<Keybuk> nope
<mjg59> mdz_: strace
<Amaranth> so, wait to see where we are for beta?
<mdz_> sounds like we are on track (snicker)
<mdz_> any other business for the meeting?
<mdz_> thanks everyone for staying around
<mdz_> good night
<Keybuk> nite
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-09-12
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 17 Sep 12:00 UTC: IRC Council | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 17 Sep 12:00 UTC: IRC Council | 18 Sep 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
<highvoltage> @schedule
<Ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Sep 20:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00: Desktop Team Development | 17 Sep 12:00: IRC Council | 18 Sep 16:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00: Xubuntu Developers
<Balkhog> @now
<Ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 12 2007, 10:17:25 - Next meeting: Edubuntu in 9 hours 42 minutes
<illovae> hello o/
* mode/#ubuntu-meeting [-bb *!*@vidd.vidd.us *!*@63-224-188-119.desm.qwest.net]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubotu] : Current meeting: Edubuntu | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 17 Sep 12:00 UTC: IRC Council | 18 Sep 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers
* ogra waves 
* RichEd hands the mike to ogra : edubuntu-devel meeting
<sbalneav> Hello all
<ogra> i'm totally unprepared ... :)
<stgraber> hello
<RichEd> ogra ... wing it then :)
<RichEd> hi stgraber
<moquist> ogra: would it be out of place for me to say I have to run, but how's moodle, and is there anything more I should do with it right now?
<ogra> gah, why dont we still have the new agenda on the wiki ...
<RichEd> ogra ... has it gone ?
<ogra> moquist, go ahead
* moquist waves bye
<ogra> RichEd, no, its still the old scheme
<ogra> ah, no i'm blind
* RichEd wipes ollie's spectacles
<ogra> (or cant read (working since 10am already ...))
<ogra> ok
<ogra> #
<ogra> Technical
<ogra>     *
<ogra>       Progress over past week
<ogra>     *
<ogra>       Issues/ Blocks
<ogra>     *
<ogra>       Planned Activities for coming week
<ogra> well, thin-client-manager was fixed, i solved some small issues with it and gutsies new ldm
<ogra> so the userlist is shown again which wasnt the case since ldm2 was in
<juliux> hi all
<RichEd> hey juliux
<ogra> i fixed the "share screen" function to pop up the share screen settings automatically if screen sharing isnt enabled on the teachers desktop
<ogra> and fixed a small bug with the killing of apps where you had to kill them twice if they were started in shells
<ogra> so thin-client-manager is ready to go so far, no regressions anymore
<ogra> beyond that everybody cheer for sbalneav ... he's a machine ... and fixes bugs like mad in ltsp *alongside* with writing the new handbook issue
<ogra> i mean, i do all this for a living and cant cope with him who does it aside his job ... that really deserves a big thank you from every edubuntu user ....
<sbalneav> heh
* sbalneav takes bow
<ogra> so if you ever meet sbalneav in person and use edubuntu, dont forget you owe him at least one beer :)
<sbalneav> I will, however, drink more if offered :)
<ogra> hehe
<juliux> hehe i ahve still some cz beer from jenda ;)
<sbalneav> As ogra can testify to :)
<ogra> juliux, no UDS for you ?
<juliux> so sbalneav if you are one time in germany you get a cz beer form me that i get from jenda ;)
<juliux> ogra, it is in the us;)
<ogra> bah, you and your private policies ...
<juliux> ogra, and i have to work
<ogra> :)
<ogra> anyway, lots of fixes, last week ...
<juliux> i can t take 5 daies off during the first three month
<ogra> sadly the installer progressbar stuff still has issues
<sbalneav> I'm waiting for an ubuntu summit to be in Germany :)
<juliux> sbalneav, +11111111111
<ogra> i hope todays upload fixed most of them, but i can only test with the next iso (tomorrow)
<sbalneav> So, are we to the point where we should be iso testing?
<sbalneav> I guess, to test the installer.
<sbalneav> your mkfifo stuff
<juliux> this time i also can test iso installation
<ogra> yeah, but not before 20060913
<ogra> it wont be in the ones before
<juliux> ok
<juliux> could it be that you mean 20070913 ?
<sbalneav> I'd be kind of hard at this point to test anything before 20060913
<ogra> oh, and you need a dvdrw or something
<ogra> or an 800M CD
<juliux> np
<ogra> they are oversized
<sbalneav> unless you got a time machine in your back pocket :)
<ogra> (no clue if the kernel is proper atm, might be that stuff is out of sync, there was a linux-source upload )
<sbalneav> Yeah, what's up with the oversize?
<sbalneav> what shot us up?
<ogra> likely duplicated kernel packages or so
<sbalneav> ah
<ogra> its oversized, but the current 30M are nonsense
<ogra> should be around 10 to 15M
<juliux> should we test daily or daily-live ?
<ogra> daily
<juliux> ok
<ogra> live doesnt have the d-i stuff for ltsp
<juliux> ok
<ogra> important is that the ltsp builds work right *and* show proper progess
<juliux> i can test them
<ogra> i fear that might keep me busy even after beta, but its worth it and long on my todo list
<ogra> sso thats one of the current ongoing issues
<ogra> (looking at the agenda ...)
<ogra> well, more bugfixing is planned for next week indeed
<ogra> we will hold another "fix it friday"
<ogra> i'll have to get edubuntu-artwork done
<RichEd> ogra: any more work needed by jill to tidy ?
<ogra> well, ken added some comments about the colors, not sure if she wants to address them
<ogra> if she doesnt i'm fine to go with what we have
<RichEd> i'll mail her in the morning ... but i like it as is
* RichEd checks the comments
<ogra> i'll adjust the rest (gdm/ldm colors etc) to match
<ogra> and i'll have to find out why the menu doesnt show the edubuntu logo ... sigh
<ogra> that hapens every release :/
<ogra> out of different reasons every time though
<ogra> so, thats about it for tech, please test ltsp (build chroots often and report bugs if you can) and if you can, drop by on friday in #edubuntu, we'll have a "fix it friday" :)
<LaserJock> argg, am I late?
<ogra> you just missed tech
<LaserJock> :(
<RichEd> LaserJock: you're in time to raise any issues
<ogra> yeah
<LaserJock> not much here, rock on people!!
<ogra> heh
<ogra> any comments on moodle ?
* LaserJock cheerleads from the sidelines
<LaserJock> I'm hoping to get that uploaded today
<LaserJock> and edubuntu-docs within a day or two
<ogra> thanks a lot for taking that ... really
<RichEd> LaserJock: does it look like it will make it in ?
<LaserJock> I just haven't had time to test properly
<LaserJock> RichEd: moodle?
<ogra> that was an awesome job ...
<RichEd> yessir\
<LaserJock> I don't see why not
* RichEd cheers w00t
<LaserJock> I'll twist pitti's arm for the MIR
<LaserJock> ;-)
<ogra> \o/
<RichEd> a lot of people are waiting with baited breath
<LaserJock> but so far the package works well
<ogra> oh, right, now that i see LaserJock
<LaserJock> moquist has done an amazing job
<ogra> we had the sueak people from debian contacting us
* RichEd thanks LaserJock & Moquist ... and ogra for that
<ogra> *squeak
<ogra> they would love to get their package into ubuntu
<ogra> and i think we should take it ...
<ogra> LaserJock, you didnt say much after your initital mail
<LaserJock> I've been pretty busy ;-)
<ogra> should we sync it in now instead of putting any more time into ours ?
<LaserJock> well
<ogra> appreas like the sanest decision to me
<LaserJock> eventually
<LaserJock> I'm not sure what to do for gutsy
<LaserJock> I don't know that we can get everything switched
<LaserJock> but for sure for hardy
<ogra> well, i havent had time to look at the replaces etc ... but the packages seem sane ...
<LaserJock> yeah
<ogra> what i wanted *them* to do was to add xdg compliance
<sbalneav> Can we do an UVFe?
<ogra> but that seems to have failed miserably :)
<ogra> at least according to the last answer ... :)
<LaserJock> well, a UVFe on a whole new pacakging might be difficult
<ogra> well
<LaserJock> and there is more than just that
<LaserJock> there are NEW pacakges involved I think
<ogra> its a package that only contains binary blobs mainly
<ogra> yeah, thats true
<ogra> NEW is bad
<LaserJock> in any case, I'd like to take a look
<ogra> and they have versioned package names
<LaserJock> perhaps we can replace our existing packages with theirs
<LaserJock> and then for hardy get the NEW stuff
<ogra> not right away
<ogra> we'll need NEW in any case with their naming scheme
<ogra> i didnt take that into account ...
<ogra> guess we'll forget about gutsy then
<LaserJock> well, I was thinking we could ... fix that ;-)
<ogra> ah, well
<LaserJock> with the lack of time I have
<ogra> that would mean a bit of work nobody has time for atm
<LaserJock> I was rather hoping to do it for hardy
<ogra> yeah
<LaserJock> but for sure we should merge the packages and sync from them, IMO
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> they sounded like they would take our patches without any hassle
<ogra> so moving the main load over makes sense :)
<LaserJock> yeah, it seemed like they just didn't know anything about XDG
<LaserJock> which I'm getting more familiar with these days ;-)
<ogra> debian_menu is elite :)
<ogra> make you spethial :)
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> I was also thinking of forming a squeak team on LP
<ogra> i dont understand why debian still insists on even having it in times of xdg
<LaserJock> not sure if there's much too it
<LaserJock> but there are a few guys that seem to do a lot of bug work
<ogra> i know some german users i could point there
<LaserJock> and I thought perhaps bzr/PPA might be useful
<ogra> well, if you know devs ... sure
<LaserJock> we'll see how it goes
<ogra> set up a team for hardy and lets invite them :)
<LaserJock> sounds good
<LaserJock> moving on?
<ogra> well, i was done already ...
<ogra> these things just came to my mind when i saw you :)
<ogra> documentaion ....
<ogra> well ...
<ogra> scott is building his edubuntu-docs preview packages in his PPA :)
<LaserJock> yes, very cool
<sbalneav> Read docs in my ppa
<ogra> there should be a recent version
<LaserJock> I'm cleaning up a few little things
<ogra> so please install it from there and give feedback
<LaserJock> String Freeze is tomorrow
<ogra> well ...
<sbalneav> yes.
<ogra> i'm fine for -docs to take that loosely ...
<LaserJock> generally we do take the Sting Freeze a bit looser in Edubuntu
<ogra> since they arent translated ... (or are they now)
<LaserJock> but I'd like use to actually get the docs translated
<LaserJock> ogra: I'll be updating the .pots with the next upload
<ogra> LaserJock, well at the point where we have 100 translators shouting at us we'll take it very serious :)
<sbalneav> There's a LOT of concentrated knowledge now in the handbook.
<ogra> cool
<ogra> sbalneav, show off with the size :)
<LaserJock> we're moving forward at least
<sbalneav> Francis as well donated the section on Multi-server.
<ogra> nice
<sbalneav> We're at 50 pages, printed.
<LaserJock> next time I'd like to see us adding wiki material as topics
<ogra> \o/
<ogra> yeah
<LaserJock> but 50 pages of that level of documentation is very excellent
<ogra> lots of stuff from the FAQ
<sbalneav> Well, I re-arranged a lot of the content to be more topic-y
<sbalneav> It is topic-y-er
<ogra> sbalneav, sis you go through the edubuntu-docs bugs ? there are one or two
<sbalneav> More work will make it topic-y-est
<ogra> s/sis/did/
<sbalneav> yeah, squashed them.
<ogra> thanks :)
* ogra gives sbalneav a golden rubber star
<LaserJock> :-)
<sbalneav> lol
<sbalneav> I'll settle for that beer, in Boston :)
* RichEd sqeaks the star ...
<ogra> ok, anything else for docs ?
<LaserJock> ah Boston :/
<ogra> :)
<ogra> no LaserJock in boston ?
<LaserJock> I'm afraid I might not be able to swing
<LaserJock> it
<ogra> :/
<LaserJock> definately not UDS
<ogra> next time ...
<LaserJock> I'm thinking about UES
<sbalneav> Well, bounce a laser off the moon, so we'll know you're thinking about us :)
<LaserJock> but I'm trying to get back on track with research
<RichEd> LaserJock: there will be no specific UES this time in Boston
<LaserJock> RichEd: no?
* LaserJock cries
<ogra> RichEd, we made some noise about that in seville ...
<ogra> iirc
<RichEd> It was trimmed down to 1 day, and then the sponsor approvers decided there were not enough potential decision makers
<RichEd> (for adoption i mean)
<ogra> well
<ogra> i think ubuntulive was a lot more successfull in that area
<ogra> so we can well go without one ....
<RichEd> But there is an upstream 2 day meet before UDS kicks off ... Sat/Sun with UDS on Mon
<LaserJock> ah
<ogra> yeah
<RichEd> So anyone arriving early on Sunday will find myself and Oliver to chat with
<LaserJock> I was thinking I could probably make a weekend
<RichEd> We're hoping for Moodle & KDE-Edu at Sat/Sun and Mon
<RichEd> not official yet
<LaserJock> awesome!
<ogra> and for LTSP indeed
<ogra> :)
<ogra> (as usual)
<ogra> ok
<ogra> o thats it for docs
<ogra> any additional artwork stuff ... ?
<ogra> LaserJock, do the addon things hae different icons atm ? or should i take care for that (and if so, where do icons go for them ?)
<ogra> well, we can clearify that later off-meeting :)
<ogra> no other artwork issues i guess then
<ogra> i dont see pips1 around so i guess there is nothing specific to websites ....
* ogra takes that as a no
<LaserJock> sorry, was afk
<ogra> RichEd, any comminuty matters you want to raise ?
<LaserJock> yeah, where's are new website dang it :-)
<ogra> heh
<RichEd> nothing from me at the moment ... except we are doing some planning for the education space on www.ubuntu.com
<ogra> ask pips1 ? :)
<ogra> RichEd, any management issues you want to tell us ?
<RichEd> just web site planning with the marketing people ...
<RichEd> also looks like we have a win in macedonia
<RichEd> edubuntu across a government education rollout, PCs by Haier
<RichEd> 10K then 30K then 90K desktops
<RichEd> quite substantial
<ogra> woah
<RichEd> and i will be attending a HP event in Georgia at the end of the month ...
<ogra> *edu*buntu ?
<RichEd> indeed :)
* RichEd looks for the news link
* ogra is flattered
<ogra> 90k ... wow
<RichEd> http://digi.it.sohu.com/20070904/n251959599.shtml
<ogra> and i *love* macedonia ... its very beautiful there :)
<RichEd> use google chinese to english :)
<ogra> oh
<ogra> we need to ship better chinese fonts
* ogra sees *lots* of broken utf8 on that page
<LaserJock> darn, this stuff is never in english
<LaserJock> I want to put stuff on Fridge
<LaserJock> but if I can't read it I don't like putting it up
<RichEd> LaserJock: wait for a few days ... we don't have the official edubuntu statement
<RichEd> it's decided by the OEM, but we want govt. confirmation
<LaserJock> cool
<RichEd> LaserJock: try this http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fdigi.it.sohu.com%2F20070904%2Fn251959599.shtml&langpair=zh%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools
<RichEd> see the 3rd image for edubuntu
<RichEd> also branded onto the mouses / mice
<LaserJock> haha, cool
<RichEd> I'll be attending this event (90% certain) in October to present on Edubuntu
<RichEd> >>> We are finalising the details of CIS Education Summit in October/Georgia
<RichEd> >>> We will have 9 countries, about 42 people (all together).
<RichEd> >>> Customers: IT leads from Ministries of Education, 2 or 3 ministers,
<RichEd> >>> people from government
<ogra_> thats the kubuntu thing, right ?
<RichEd> no HP ...
<RichEd> > HP invites direct or indirect IT decision makers.
<RichEd> > In several countries: Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgizstan Linux option
<RichEd> > has very high probability. In Armenia, Georgia Ubuntu had been already
<RichEd> > installed in schools.
<ogra_> ah, ok
<RichEd> So it is a top level "almost clients but still looking" HP thing
<RichEd> Our OEM Canonical Russia guy Vladimir will be my key contact
<RichEd> He'll present my talk in Russian, and I'll field questions in English :)
<RichEd> Should be an experience
<ogra_> heh, cool
<RichEd> So the good news is that the people are all in charge of 10's of thousands of education machines
<RichEd> as in decisions for their countries
<RichEd> ---
<RichEd> and that's all from me folks
<ogra> whats the bad then ?
<ogra> :)
<RichEd> airports, airport security, airplanes
<RichEd> the usual tedium
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> i'm so happy i dont need to travel atm
<ogra> anyway ... ANY OTHER BUSINESS ?
<ogra> perfect ...
<ogra> going once
<ogra> going twice
<ogra> .
<ogra> ..
<ogra> ...
<ogra> ....
* RichEd hands over the hammer
<ogra> .....
<ogra> adjourned, thanks everybody
<sbalneav> np
<ogra> yay, we made it in 1h :)
<RichEd> thanks all
<RichEd> have a good day / afternoon / night
* ogra waves
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 17 Sep 12:00 UTC: IRC Council | 18 Sep 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
#ubuntu-meeting 2007-09-13
<pitti> hello
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:Ubotu] : Current meeting: Desktop Team Development | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Sep 12:00 UTC: IRC Council | 18 Sep 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development
<Hobbsee> hi pitti
<Keybuk> mvo, MacSlow, Mithrandir: ping ?
<Keybuk> (I suddenly realise that an interestingly large portion of my team begins their nickname with "M")
<kwwii> I picked kwwii just so I would have a K, like you :p
<Mithrandir> good morning
* Hobbsee wonders if this is the gnome desktop team, or what was the ubuntu development team meeting
<Keybuk> Mirco just lost power
<Mithrandir> we should just name the team reporting-to-Scott-team to avoid any confusion
<Hobbsee> heh
<mvo> hey Keybuk
* Hobbsee shuts up then
<DrPepperKid> test 1..2..3..
<Keybuk> Hobbsee: it's the meeting of the team that's a subset of both :p
<Keybuk> DrPepperKid: that was quick!
<Hobbsee> Keybuk: right then :P
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: and some others. :-P
<DrPepperKid> Keybuk, I'll see how long it lasts
<DrPepperKid> *sigh*
<pitti> DrPepperKid: pedal faster!
<Keybuk> I did send out a quick mail about an hour ago for agenda items
<Keybuk>  * Update on compiz decision from TB
<Keybuk>  * Compiz bug update from mvo and Mirco
<Keybuk>  * Herdy planning
<Keybuk> did anyone have anything to add to that?
<pitti> does 'herdy planning' involve some sponsoree issues?
<pitti> (invited people for UDS)
<Keybuk> pitti: it can do, depending on what you want to discuss?
<Keybuk> if particular people are involved, it may be better to raise that privately since this is a public meeting
<pitti> just an update how we should proceed
<DrPepperKid> I just got the "short term" announce... power will be off for an hour or so... *sigh*
<Keybuk> pitti: let's discuss that afterwards
<pitti> 'k
<mvo> is MacSlow here yet
<mvo> ?
<Keybuk> mvo: he came and went
<Keybuk> mvo: but please do give us a quick update on how compiz is going
<ogra> mvo, he was hiding behind DrPepperKid :)
<Keybuk> now that the Technical Board have agreed to ship with compiz
<mvo> ok
<mvo> the bug situation is not too bad currently. upstream is very active and helpful
<mvo> especially danny baumann and amaranth (thanks!)
<mvo> we may have to blacklist nvidia if the xserver problem does not get sorted (patch 132 breaks the 1.3 abi)
<mvo> we may have to blacklist mga (or g450) because its too slow
<Keybuk> how is video playback going?
<Keybuk> I saw that Mez blogged about it not working, was that related or unrelated?
<pitti> yesterday, ati was blacklisted; is there any video driver besides intel which is still enabled, btw?
<Keybuk> (with xine, at least)
<mvo> pitti: there will be another upload today that just blacklists rs480
<pitti> mvo: ah, cool
<mvo> I have not seen mez blog post yet
<pitti> mvo: and the ABI change cannot be accounted for in the sourceful part of nvidia?
<mvo> but video works for most people, but *not* for intel on i965
<mvo> #111257
<mvo> bug #111257
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 111257 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "totem crashes with 'BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation)' when using compiz and xserver-xorg-video-intel driver" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/111257
* pitti looks forward to getting his new laptop with a gma950
<Keybuk> mvo: do we know what causes that?
<Keybuk> is there a fix likely?
<mvo> now I though I had fixed that with the xf86VFillKeyHelperDrawable patch, but that seems to be not the case
<mvo> but I do not have hardware myself to test so its a bit difficult for me currently
<mvo> pitti: apparently not, patch 132 is important for ubuntu-mobile but breaks nvidia
<mvo> Keybuk: I honestly don't know yet
<pitti> mvo: right, I meant changing the nvidia driver itself to adapt to the new API
<Keybuk> mvo: do we know anyone with that hardware?
<mvo> I will try to find someone
<mjg59> Xv will not work for 965 under compiz if XAA is used. We discussed that at TB.
<mvo> worst case is blacklisting this pciid
<Mithrandir> mvo: 132 is important for upstream gtk too, since what it does is enabling inter-widget compositing.  At least, AIUI, from talking with seb.
<mjg59> Choices are either (a) don't use compiz on 965, or (b) use EXA
<Keybuk> mjg59: what's the downside to using EXA?
<pitti> hi Amaranth, good to have you here!
<Amaranth> i really need to start using some calendar software
<Keybuk> (tangent: I really need that SoC guy to finish the evolution google calendar backend :p)
<mjg59> Keybuk: Significantly less well tested, very different codepaths
<mvo> mjg59: you went to XDS, right? what were the opionions about compiz-by-default there?
<pitti> Amaranth: import the fridge calendar into evo
<mvo> Amaranth: anything you want to add about the bug situation in compiz?
<mjg59> mvo: On aiglx? That it wasn't sensible yet
<Amaranth> i don't think so
<Amaranth> same as the TB meeting
<Amaranth> other than driver issues (which we can work around or blacklist) it's mostly little things
<mvo> macslow is working on the workspaces layout bug currently
<mvo> that is hopefully fixed soon too
<Keybuk> ok, thanks
<Amaranth> Keybuk: that's your pet bug, no?
<Keybuk> Amaranth: I have lots of pet bugs
<Amaranth> hehe
<Keybuk> sometimes I forget to feed them
<pitti> that one is one of my favourite's, too :)
<mvo> use a flat layout!
* mvo hides
<mvo> Keybuk: we hope to attack more bugs on the compiz sprint next week
<mvo> and we also hope for more user feedback/bugreports
<Keybuk> indeed
<mvo> now that its "offical"
<Amaranth> man i got a lot of comments on my blog for that
<Amaranth> so there is obviously interest :)
<Keybuk> Amaranth: what kind of balance?
<Amaranth> all negative :P
<Amaranth> mostly asking if this means their pet driver bug will be fixed
<Amaranth> or what happens for people with unsupported hardware
<Amaranth> http://www.realistanew.com/2007/09/12/compiz-by-default-in-ubuntu-710/#comments
<Keybuk> cool
<mjg59> It wouldn't surprise me if r300 isn't especially stable
<Keybuk> mvo: before the sprint, if you could check over the bug list and find those that are most user-affecting, etc.  that would be great
<Keybuk> anyway, Herdy
<Amaranth> Keybuk: i already did that
* Keybuk hands Amaranth a gold star ;)
<mvo> Keybuk: I plan to do that, yes
<mvo> but Amaranth did great work already
* mvo hugs Amaranth
<Keybuk> 8.04 will be an LTS, in some form or other
<mvo> is there more than one form ;) ?
<pitti> so, no crazy new stuff? :)
<Keybuk> the general thought is that new development is fine if it fixes problems
<Keybuk> or improves usability, etc.
<Keybuk> we want to tackle problems that matter most to our users as well, mdz is looking at some digg-like way of collecting the top problems
<pitti> one thing I had in mind for hardy was an application for guided bug filing (decision-tree based); I guess stuff like this is appropriate?
<pitti> (we already had that spec for gutsy, but it didn't get very far)
<Keybuk> potentially; Henrik's new Desktop QA Developer will certainly help with that kind of thing :)
<Keybuk> since we're especially looking at what users want, it's worth everyone going through things like:
<Keybuk>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IdeaPool
<Keybuk>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsabilityWishlist
<Keybuk>  * https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu
<Keybuk> and seeing if there's any items in there that interest you
<pitti> and maybe the long list of specs that users created
<pitti> . o O { a sensible backup solution! }
<Mithrandir> I need to come up with a list of development issues for UME, which is kinda on the side of what Ubuntu Desktop does.
<mvo> backup++
* mvo loves the idea to have time again to go over all the bugs
<pitti> mvo++; more time for bug fixing
* mvo would also like to improve the automatic upgrade tester in the next cycle
<Keybuk> so please, over the next week put together a list of problems to tackle
<Keybuk> and then we'll discuss everyone's lists at the team meeting
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: to what extent do you expect me to have complete lists for UME?
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: I'm not sure, check with mdz :)  at least a partial list will be good though
<Keybuk> he expressed some urgency to the planning
<Keybuk> UME is more interesting simply because it's still in development
<Keybuk> I'm not sure whether it's being considered for LTS or not
<Mithrandir> I think we want to LTS it, simply because we'll have devices with it on in the field for quite a while.
<Amaranth> stupid router
<Mithrandir> and I don't think we'll have people doing dist-upgrades of their MIDs
<Mithrandir> urgency> yes, everything about UME is urgent.  :-)
<Keybuk> urgency to general planning, in fact
<Keybuk> is there any other business?
<Mithrandir> I don't have anything
<pitti> let's go squash bugs
<Amaranth> \o/
<Keybuk> ok thanks all
<pitti> 11 down, 3 to go \o/, so I might be able to help with the unassigned beta bugs soon, too
<Keybuk> pitti: I expect you're glad we have a full time release manager starting on Monday :p
<Amaranth> pitti: feel free to fix all the compiz bugs :)
<pitti> indeed I am \o/
<pitti> Amaranth: *cough*
<pitti> Amaranth: in fact I am about to go to a shop and take a look at some shiny new laptops now :)
<pitti> so that I can actually test it
<pitti> Keybuk: although I guess that we'll do the beta release together, for mentoring?
<Keybuk> I imagine so
* mvo considers food
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Sep 12:00 UTC: IRC Council | 18 Sep 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Sep 12:00 UTC: MOTU Team
<ArneGoetje> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 13 2007, 14:34:08 - Next meeting: IRC Council in 3 days
* mvo looks around
<dholbach> hey mvo :)
<heno> Suggested agenda item: Tribe 6 and Beta bug status
<ogra> @now
<ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: September 13 2007, 15:03:26 - Next meeting: IRC Council in 3 days
<asac> hi
<pitti> hi
* mathiaz waves
<calc> hi
* asac doorbell 
<dholbach> It's not really an agenda item, but please all have a look at http://daniel.holba.ch/sponsoring - there are bugs which I might have assigned to you - please try to get back to patch authors
<calc> pitti: btw i will look into fixing the office bean issue with the next upload of OOo
<pitti> calc: thank you! appreciated
<pitti> calc: when is that scheduled? IOW, when can we expect to have testable CDs again?
<calc> pitti: oh it completely breaks the CD *wince* :\
<evand> hi
<pitti> calc: well, not completely break (VMWare testing is fine), but you cannot burn them
<calc> pitti: i had hoped to do it after 2.3.0 is released on Monday but I can try to push that to sooner
<pitti> calc: and TBH I have no idea how to free 12 MB on them
<Mithrandir> just remove OOo? :-P
<pitti> there are almost no langpacks left to remove (which is a pity on itself)
<calc> pitti: will dropping office bean by itself be enough to fix the problem or should i look to some other things?
<pitti> Mithrandir: ! why didn't I think about *that*?
<heno> Could everyone please look at bugs on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone:Alist=473 assigned to them and try to give an updated ETA? (then we can move on to beta)
<pitti> calc: should be fine, it pulls in java-gcj-compat and that big libgcj8-jar
* heno things we should split out OOo writer and just ship that
<Amaranth> do we use -Os when building?:)
<Keybuk> heno: if only that view showed who they were assigned to <g>
<calc> pitti: ok
<pitti> heno: shouldn't we move all of those to beta straight away?
<heno> pitti: we should I just though we could do a Tribe 6 wrap-up first
<evand> CDs> As of yesterday they still have serious unionfs issues anyway
<heno> our non-release milestone :)
<mathiaz> for bug 120085, isn't it too late in the release cycle to introduce such a change ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 120085 in sysklogd "Various problems running syslogd with "-u syslog" option" [Medium,Triaged]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/120085
<pitti> heno: hm, I don't think that all tribe6 bugs are really more important than the beta ones
<pitti> heno: that hasn't been very consistent in the past, bugs were just dragged from tribe to tribe and eventually to beta
<pitti> heno: unless you have different experiences?
<heno> pitti: no, it's just a subset. should we instead to High priority bugs from both lists?
<pitti> (is a verb missing here?)
<calc> my two bugs are done :)
<heno> ... instead look at ....
<ogra> mathiaz, its a regression fix, no ?
<mathiaz> ogra: yes. A regression that was introduce in edgy
<ogra> sounds to me like it should go in
<mathiaz> then if a core-dev could have a look at the debdiff I've attached and comment, it would be great
<evand> my bugs are done with workarounds, prettier fixes are still being investigated
<pitti> heno: that's why I think we should just merge them into one list and adjust priorities
<pitti> I'm down to three restricted-manager bugs for beta, rest is done
<mvo> the compiz/g-screensaver issue is still under investiagation
<heno> after moving the last tribe bugs we'll have ~200 open bugs milestoned for beta. how does that compare with previous releases at this stage?
<heno> Mithrandir: ^
<Mithrandir> that's quite a bit more, I believe
<Mithrandir> but then, we have a much more active server team, for instance.
<heno> making more bugs :)
<heno> we still need to do a critical review of that list though
<heno> pitti: shall we do that some time next week?
<pitti> heno: agreed; or tomorrow, fine for me
<heno> for bug 132320 I was wondering whether we should just leave tracker indexing off by default anyway
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 132320 in tracker "Tracker consumes more then 90% of CPU even when indexing is disabled" [Critical,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/132320
<heno> pitti: ok, tomorrow is good
<heno> and activate it the first time someone goes to search
<asac> heno: the bug claims that it consumes cycles even if indexing is disabled? how would disabling it help?
<heno> asac: I mean, not run the deamon at all
<Amaranth> compiz/g-screensaver is annoying hard to figure out
<Amaranth> heno: tracker uses that much CPU by design
<Amaranth> heno: it uses 100% cpu but nice level 19 so as soon as something wants CPU time tracker gets pushed out
<heno> Amaranth: which is a good argument for turning it off. I would guess only a fraction of users actually use desktop search
<Amaranth> heno: but it's not a bug
<Amaranth> and it's not a problem
<calc> Amaranth: using 100% cpu for prolonged time period on laptops is an issue... right?
<Amaranth> calc: it's going to not do anything when running on battery
<calc> Amaranth: ah ok
<Amaranth> well, jamie said we could expect that soon
<heno> it's bad for the environment even on desktops :)
<asac> Amaranth: soon enough for gutsy?
<Amaranth> asac: yes
<Amaranth> before beta even, i guess
<asac> Amaranth: you know jamie?
<heno> seriously, using that much CPU is bad form
<calc> so why does it use 90%+ cpu when apparently not doing anything?
<Amaranth> asac: sort of
<asac> Amaranth: ok fine then.
<heno> and most users don't want it (is my humble guess)
<asac> i must admit that i was a bit annoyed by it
<pochu> calc: When it's 90+ it's indexing
<calc> when it is actually doing indexing it causes the system to basically grind to a halt until it is done due to disk iowait
<asac> it indexed for two days or so when i upgraded to gutsy
<Amaranth> well you could throttle it
<Amaranth> then it uses less % but runs longer
<Amaranth> so same cpu time in the end
<heno> asac: and how often have you used desktop search since then?
<calc> pochu: the bug report mentioned above said it was at 90%+ even with indexing disabled, whether that is actually the case I don't know
<dholbach> also having ~1G of indexing data in .cache/tracker annoyed me a bit
<asac> heno: actually i tried it ... e.g. to find things in mozilla source
<Amaranth> we are not the target audience
<asac> heno: i think i would use it if I could dump updatedb completely in turn
<pedro_> dholbach: i seconded that.
<pochu> calc: I think there's another bug saying it didn't stop to index when it was told to, so probably it was indexing :)
<Amaranth> we keep track of things on our filesystem
<asac> but afaik i cannot search for filenames
<calc> pochu: oh ok
<heno> the target audience use firefox, an mp3 player and skype. that's it :)
<Amaranth> my grandfather can't remember where he puts anything
* mvo vaguely remembers that he had 1,7G when he disabled it
<asac> heno: yeah ... but the target audience doesn't have a home with zillions of fileitems either ;)
<dholbach> asac: you don't know my sister :)
<calc> i haven't looked into this but how do you disable tracker normally?
<asac> heno: so indexing shouldn't take so long ;)
<heno> right they keep their pictures in their gmail acct and search that
<calc> its depended on by ubuntu-desktop so shouldn't actually be completely removed
<mvo> its a recommends, no?
<calc> oh yea just recommends, recommends gets autoinstalled I forgot about that
<asac> well i think its rare that there are picture folders with as many files as a mozilla source copy ;)
<heno> no, it's just that the deamon should be set to not run until the user tries their first search
<jdstrand> calc: I used Sessions
<asac> heno: the backdraft would be that the first search wouldn't yield any results right? so people will never try again :)
<Amaranth> heno: then their first search is worthless and they stop using it
<asac> ack
<bdmurray> Maybe we should ask people instead of speculating?
<asac> bdmurray: yeah ... forum vote ;)
<heno> or their first experience into Ubuntu is slooooow and they stop using _that_
<pedro_> asac: it could show a message "your files are not indexed with tracker do you want to start blabla bla?" ok/cancel
<heno> we should take it to the list
<heno> pedro_: +1
<jdstrand> heno: perhaps a notice telling the user that the first index isn't complete would work
<pedro_> agreed.
<asac> pedro_: right ... i agree that things can be improved ... but we have to chew on it i guess
<heno> Windows help used to do this, so people are used to that
<heno> it would make the two top tracker bugs no longer Critical
<Amaranth> in OS X they just made it the default. new installs are no problem because there are no files to index and upgrades have maybe one day of pain then they're fine
<heno> (though they should still be fixed)
<Amaranth> so maybe on by default for new installs only?
<asac> Amaranth: +1 (when combined with heno/pedro_ suggestion for existing installs)
<heno> it still takes CPU cycles, RAM and disk space for the 90% who will never use it
<heno> (my random guess)
<Amaranth> it uses almost no RAM so...
<heno> Amaranth: do you have numbers?
<Amaranth> and people have 400GB hard drives so that's not a big deal
<pitti> erm, laptops don't
<pedro_> well not all the people
<heno> some people have 30GB drives and 256MB RAM
<dholbach> I have 40G in my laptop
<mvo> I would not mind if it would stop indexing if the space gets tight
<pedro_> same here
<heno> and we want to support them as well
<Amaranth> heno: it uses no (noticeable) CPU
<Amaranth> heno: because it only uses idle cycles
<jdstrand> what about default off, with a note on first login about how to enable it?
<heno> but that still makes the machine noisy, both on laptops and desktops
<heno> and will be seen as a regression
<asac> jdstrand: i think these kind of popups are usually just ignored by users
<jdstrand> asac: I ignore tracker anyway :)
<illovae> hello o/
<mvo> asac++
<heno> jdstrand: if we start down that path we'll soon have 10 pop-ups at boot :)
<sourcercito> Amaranth, sure you don't live in south america or africa
<Amaranth> heno: so throttle it
<Amaranth> sourcercito: you can't even _install_ with 256MB
<sourcercito> most people here don't have hard drives that big
<sourcercito> yes, i've a 5gb partition to ubuntu, but still
<Amaranth> sourcercito: and the size of the index is relative to the size of the stuff on your computer
<jdstrand> asac, heno: I see your point, but question that there is a sane default.  It is indeed useful for some of our users, but not others.
<Amaranth> so if you have a small HD you have a small index
<kwwii> Amaranth: not if I had lots of small files, or?
<pitti> mvo's proposal of stopping indexing when space gets tight is good IMHO
<jdstrand> asac, heno: could default off with an entry in Ubuntu Help Center
<heno> jdstrand: riht, but I think the notice on first search makes more sense
<Amaranth> kwwii: well it's not a linear thing
<asac> don't we have other features already that are enabled/disabled based on hardware profiles?
<pitti> asac: yes, compiz
<BenC> laptop mode comes to mind
<pitti> asac: and gnome-power-manager
<jdstrand> heno: ah-- so it is default off, then when they try to use it the first time, turn it on?
<asac> so in case lots of people complain in beta we might wanna think about extending this for tracker?
<heno> what about making the checkbox to turn off indexing actually stop the deamon from running?
* mvo wonders if it could even free some of its index if space gets tight 
<heno> jdstrand: right
<Amaranth> asac: compiz is easier
<pedro_> heno: yes please.
<Amaranth> asac: it's just a matter of checking features, not performance
<asac> another idea would be to show up a tray icon that shows "now indexing" .. which you could right click and say "stop this" ?
<mvo> also checking performance before starting compiz would be useful too
<jdstrand> heno: I think an 'are you sure' type of thing with a warning about CPU and disk space might be a good idea to think about
<jdstrand> heno: on that first try
<Amaranth> mvo: afaik all the hardware it actually is capable of running on is fast enough to run it somewhat decently
<Amaranth> mvo: i used it on a Radeon 7500
<popey> asac: +1, I'd love to be able to stop/pause trackerd when I am playing a game for example
<mvo> Amaranth: true, I the slowest I have is a i830 and even that is okish
<Amaranth> popey: other than the kernel bug with io scheduling you should not need to
<heno> I don't want it to run somewhat decently, I want my desktop to *always* be super-responsive :)
<popey> "hah"
<Amaranth> popey: it is explicitly designed to use only what is idle
<heno> Linux should be able to deliver that
<popey> my core2duo 2.6GHz gets murdered by trackerd
<Amaranth> popey: in feisty it worked fine :)
<heno> unless we shoot ourselves in the foot
<Amaranth> popey: like i said, it uses all available _idle_ cpu
<Amaranth> popey: so if you play a game it scales down
<popey> Amaranth: I understand the theory, but practically it doesn't work like that, it slows down every machine I own, all over 2GHz, most multicore
<Amaranth> only the IO is a problem here
<heno> a problem is a problem, no matter what the technical reason
<Amaranth> this is apparently only a problem with upgrades
<popey> indeed, and I'd still like to be able to pause it :)
<mvo> and it seems to be something new that was introduced by 2.6.22
<Amaranth> so hopefully we'll figure out why
<heno> ok, cool. on that note, let's take it to the mailing list
<asac> cool
<heno> shall swe look at the other Critical beta bugs?
<asac> can we take a look at bug 139403
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 139403 in network-manager "network-manager should stop managing any interface configured in /etc/network/interfaces" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/139403
<asac> i would like to know if anyone has any hard reasons not to do that?
<asac> pleaes read summary
* calc has another network manager issue to bring up, not sure if a bug is already filed on it
* ogra is 100% for it 
<pitti> provided that u-m removes auto/dhcp interfaces from /e/n/i on upgrades, and the installer does not write the stanzas for desktop isntallations
<heno> that does seem to be causing a lot of bug reports
<asac> pitti: look at bug
* ogra was 100% for it when Keybuk suggested it ages ago :)
<asac> pitti: the new suggestion is to make postinst do that
<asac> (not u-m)
<pitti> asac: urgh
<asac> so people that now use network manager for auto dhcp will still use it
<calc> another suggestion, have network manager not kill connections on upgrade... (not sure if that is known and/or fixed yet)
<asac> while those that have n-m uniinstalled won't see a regression
<pitti> asac: 3. needs to be extended to '... for desktop installations'
<pitti> asac: since we do want it on servers, CLI, or expert installations
<asac> pitti: 3. desktop installer should not add auto dhcp interfaces.
<asac>       ^^^
<asac> its already in there ... isnt it?
<pitti> asac: right, but it should do that for above cases
<pitti> oh, *only* ubiquity?
<asac> pitti: ok but it shouldn't install nm for those as well
<pitti> fine then
<asac> pitti: no idea ... i think it should depend on whether nm is installed or not
<pitti> right
<pitti> then we just need to make damn sure that n-m actually works and always brings up eth0 on boot
* pitti is not convinced that it is that robust yet
<asac> i have not many bugs about wired
<pitti> asac: what's your experience with that so far?
<asac> usually wired works ... if wired doesn't work ifupdown mostly fails as well
<mvo> what people with two interfaces? that is not supported by n-m, right? so this needs to be carfully checked
<pitti> asac: when I trawled over the n-m bugs the last time, there were a lot of that kind, but I guess this was often due to the 'tears down ifaces on startup' but
<pitti> s/t$/g/
<asac> pitti: right
<pitti> mvo: those need an e/n/i entry mostly AFAICS
<asac> what we see now is either "tears down" ... or now ingutsy "nm shows some random interface because we have to active, managed connections"
<pitti> mvo: e. g. my secondary interface has static configuration
<mvo> right, so the thing that removes stuff needs to check for this, right?
<calc> a lot of nvidia based desktop motherboards have two nics on them, btw
<Zic> @schedule Paris
<ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Paris: 17 Sep 14:00: IRC Council | 18 Sep 18:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 20 Sep 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 21 Sep 14:00: MOTU Team
<asac> pitti: and if people don't have a network they most likely go to network-admin ... and once they configured the interface there it will be just ifupdown
<asac> which doesn't work atm because if you configure just dhcp there, network manager will still manage it
<pitti> good point
<pitti> asac: but with that, you'll lose the possibility to switch to a wifi, don't you?
<asac> no
<asac> thats the good thing
<asac> you go to network-admin .. configure eth as dhcp ... then you still can use nm for wireless
<pitti> asac: but I don't see how "don't touch ifupdown connections" and "use wifi although there is an eth configured" mix?
<asac> unless you configure wirelss as "not-roaming" there as well
<asac> pitti: please rephrase :) ?
<pitti> ok, I plug my laptop into my ethernet and have auto eth0/dhcp
<pitti> (in /e/n/i)
<asac> yeah
<pitti> then I unplug it, and want to use my wifi
<pitti> but since n-m doesn't manage eth0 any more, the default route won't be torn down for eth
<pitti> (and neither the dhclient)
<pitti> i. e. everyone who every uses network-admin will be stuck there
<pitti> oh, you can switch it back to 'roaming'
<asac> what happens if you have two default routes?
<asac> for me it worked
<pitti> asac: you lose
<pitti> asac: it's a race condition, from my experience
<pitti> sometimes it works, sometimes you lose all packets
<pitti> it's bit of a corner case, yes, but so far these cases were handled pretty well because n-m actually understood /e/n/i
<pitti> I know, choosing between two evils :/
<asac> pitti: understood is a bit exaggerated
<asac> it broke ifupdown :)
<pitti> IOW, once someone configures "dhcp" in network-admin for eth0, n-m will just go to 'static configuration' and not do anything any more
<pitti> might be a bit confusing
<asac> he?
<ogra> who?
<asac> it will not go to static ... it will just stop to manage it
<pitti> asac: right, but it won't switch interfaces either because you have a manual configuration
<asac> can't dhclient listen to hal events?
<pitti> unless, of course, n-m continues to actually parse and interpret /e/n/i, but I thought you wanted to get rid of that
<pitti> asac: in what way?
<asac> remove/add route?
* pitti does not understand; why should dhclient do that?
<pitti> after all, dhclient *is* the bit that actually configures routes...
<asac> i don't mean dhclient .. i mean ifupdown mechanism
<ogra> asac, you could use route directly :)
<pitti> asac: there's no ifupdownd or something that could do that; what should it do?
<ogra> pitti, he wants to remove the defaultroute for that interface if i understood right
<ogra> but keep the interface as is
<pitti> asac: if we want n-m to override ifupdown routes, then we could make ifupdown use defualtroutes with metric 1
<asac> pitti: how would that look like?
<pitti> and keep n-m use metric 0 routes
<pitti> so that n-m's routes win
<asac> yes that sounds reasonable then
* asac has not idea about metrics
<pitti> asac: just "metric 1" option
<pitti> asac: just think about it as 'priority'
<asac> yeah ... were would such a feature be added?
<pitti> the lower one wins
<heno> We've been going for an hour; let's declare the meeting done and continue this wherever
<heno> Thanks everyone
<asac> pitti: ok i will add that to the bug and subscribe you
<mvo> thanks
* mvo goes for dinner now
<pitti> thanks everyone
<mathiaz> thanks
<dholbach> thanks - see you tomorrow
<kwwii> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-09-09
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 10 Sep 22:00: Platform Team | 11 Sep 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 11 Sep 13:00: Desktop Team | 11 Sep 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 12 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Release
<amachu> Hi
<TheMuso> amachu: hah perfect timing.
<amachu> :-)
<persia> Good evening.
<amachu> persia: elkbuntu: TheMuso: Hi
<elkbuntu> pong
<amachu> lifeless: Hi
<amachu> So we are four today
<amachu> lifeless there?
<amachu> belutz and zakame?
<amachu> amireldor there?
<amachu> svaksha?
<amachu> Rafik: Hi
<Rafik> hello
<Rafik> hi all
<amachu> Welcome everyone for toady's meeting - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<amachu> persia: elkbuntu: TheMuso: We will start
<TheMuso> Sounds good.
<elkbuntu> yup
<amachu> Let wait for first two.. and call upon Rafik
<Rafik> Here I am, ready :)
<amachu> Rafik: Hi. Please go ahead, describing yourself and your contributions to Ubuntu
<Rafik> ok
<Rafik> I'm 23 years old student from Tunisia
<Rafik> First, I apologize for my English  level, it's not so good. I'm speaking Arabic (mother tongue) and French fluently.
<Rafik> I am applying here, even if my country Tunisia is in Africa because during the meeting of the EMEA regional board, i will be driving to the city where I study (summer holidays over :-) )
<Rafik> The main part of my activity is within the Tunisia LoCo as I am one of the core members (member of the management committee) and one of the most active. I am currently on developing the website (demo : ubuntu-tn.homelinux.org)
<Rafik> I have years of experience with building virtual Tunisian communities (forums, chat, blog aggregator,..) and I'm using that to build the Ubuntu one around a website.
<Rafik> I am also on IRC (op on my LoCo channels), I have also written (or  contributed in writing) several articles  about ubuntu in the national /international press and a little on some websites. (The most importants are in my wiki page, the others are or too short or I wasn't the only author)
<Rafik> I also always try to talk about ubuntu in web forums I participate in, some of my loco members joined the team this way.
<Rafik> I am involved in the ubuntu-arabic project (in forums, forum.ubuntu-arabic.org, where I'm finishing style, it will be launched once we have assembled a management team)
<Rafik> I try to follow closely the evolution of the ubuntu community and understand its spirit .. this allows me to ensure that the Tunisian LoCo is at the best level (while trying to keep it close to the international community..)
<Rafik> Otherwise, I'm not in informatics (student in medical biotechnologies, to continue in gene engineering later). That's a good quality as I'm showing, through my activity, that ubuntu is not just for the professionals, it's for everyone (in my LoCo, there is a majority of IT).
<Rafik> For example, I always ask to do not only focus on informatics universities for install fests but on others disciplines universities too..
<Rafik> I also contribute when I can, via launchpad in responses and translation
<Rafik> if you have any question, I will be happy to answer :)
<persia> Rafik: How large is the Tunisian team?
<Rafik> it's about 70 members in LP, 140 in mailing list and a little more than 20 really active members
<amachu> Rafik: Is Tunisia bi-lingual state? french and arabic?
<Rafik> no, officially it's only arabic. but we always use french even in education due to colonialism ^^
<elkbuntu> Rafik, you spoke to the government about getting support for the LoCo? how'd that go?
<Rafik> actually they can't do anything for us as we don't have a legal entity so they can deal with us
<Rafik> they encourage us to create it
<Rafik> end promise to help with that
<elkbuntu> so it was a positive outcome?
<Rafik> actually, the only activity the governement is involved in is the organisation of SFD 2008
<elkbuntu> sometimes just voicing support is a huge help
<Rafik> yes
<Rafik> elkbuntu, yes, they promise a lot of good things, such as providing a hosting for a mirror server
<Rafik> and help us in organizing events
<elkbuntu> Rafik, that's wonderful
<Rafik> by voicing and also with funds
<jsgotangco> Rafik: are there gov't efforts towards foss? usually that is the case for them the support groups with legal status
<jsgotangco> (hi btw)
 * elkbuntu hugs jsgotangco
<Rafik> hi jsgotangco  :)
<Rafik> jsgotangco, yes we have a secretary of state called : secretary of state for Internet, Informatics and Free Software
<Rafik> soren, there is activities
<Rafik> especially since ballmer visit to tunisia last year
<elkbuntu> Rafik, that's an awesome title
<Rafik> s/soren/so
<amachu> Rafik: on translations, you do both arabic & french
<amachu> ?
<Rafik> I can do both yes
<amachu> are you doing both, I intended to ask :-)
<Rafik> I did
<amachu> appear you write to magazines in french, and maitain forum in arabic
<Rafik> but it's not enough visible on LP actually, unfortunately. I hope I'll have more time to contribute more in arabic
<Rafik> I feel more confrtable with writing in french but I have no matter with arabic too
<elkbuntu> Personally, i'm convinced by your dedication and the wide variety of contributions. +1
<Rafik> thank you elkbuntu
<persia> Rafik: Although this is perhaps an awkward timezone for some, did you happen to bring anyone to cheer for you?
<Rafik> I asked huats and Syntux to come
<amachu> Rafik: I am trying to identify you on the newspaper ;-)
<Rafik> they don't seems to be online
<Rafik> amachu, by top, from the right, I'm the third :)
<persia> Well, +1 from me: great LoCo org work, excellent advocacy, clear evidence of lots of user support, and good future plans.
<Rafik> I've written that article after the LoCo approval
<TheMuso> Rafik: +1 from me also, great work, and I hope you keep it up!
<Rafik> Thank you, i'll be continuing with more i hope
<elkbuntu> we hope too ;)
<amachu> Yes. Got you.. doing great job +1
<Rafik> Thanks
<amachu> TheMuso: there?
<TheMuso> amachu: Yes.
<TheMuso> amachu: I gave my vote.
<elkbuntu> i think we have all voted
<amachu> I noticed it noted...
<amachu> thats great! Welcome Rafiq and all the best for Team Tunisia
<Rafik> Thank you very much
<Rafik> You are doing a really great job for the ubuntu community. so Thank you again
<amachu> Rafik: We all :-)
<amachu> amireldor an svaksha appear not to be here
<Rafik> Que vive Ubuntu, ÙØ­ÙØ§ Ø§ÙØ¨ÙÙØªÙ :)
<amachu> any other thing need to be discussed?
<amachu> persia: elkbuntu: TheMuso ?
<elkbuntu> nothing i can think of
<persia> There was the issue about timing.  Are we all happy with the time?
<amachu> any thoughts raised on time zone issues raised in mailing list?
<persia> Do we think it's extra difficult for those too far east or west?
<amachu> persia: It is almost good-bye time here in India or just before that
<amachu> so people will be winding up offices and be back home...
<TheMuso> I can move the meeting up to 3 hours earlier, or two hours later if need be.
<TheMuso> i.e I can do those times
<persia> amachu: Well, depends where you work :)  Also, it's 10pm in New Zealand, and 11:30 in some parts of New Zealand once Summer comes.
<amachu> persia: I agree. That to if people are employed at offices with fixed routines..
<elkbuntu> persia, i think we can worry about daylight savings when it comes to that
 * persia hopes amachu will be supportive of the idea of ignoring daylight savings time
<elkbuntu> 3 hours earlier will mean i'll miss it more often, as i sometimes dont get on my train home until that time
<TheMuso> elkbuntu: Yeah was just stating what I can do in terms of times, should we wish to change.
<elkbuntu> TheMuso, understood. i was doing the same ;)
<amachu> hope we all do not have problem with the current time
<elkbuntu> i dont
<persia> I'm rather flexible, excepting 14:00 UTC, as I have a standing meeting then.  That said, I'm happy with the idea of having a fixed time somewhere between EMEA and Americas, and this time works well for me.
<elkbuntu> it's pretty much perfect for me, since i'm home and fed.
<amachu> elkbuntu: 14.00 UTC
<amachu> ?
<elkbuntu> if we get to the point that alot of people from india are getting banked up, we can always deviate for a week to clear the queue
<elkbuntu> amachu, if that's what time this meeting starts, sure.
<amachu> TheMuso: how about you for 14.00 ?
 * TheMuso calculates.
<amachu> persia: i can't get ' idea of ignoring daylight savings time'
<amachu> :-(
<TheMuso> amachu: Do you mean future meetings, or when daylight savings changes
<persia> 14:00 is specifically bad for me, but might be acceptable sometimes if it doesn't happen to be one of the weeks I've simultaneous parallel 14:00 UTC meetings.
<persia> TheMuso: It's that there is no "daylight savings time" for amachu and I.
<TheMuso> persia: Right.
<TheMuso> Well 14:00UTC is putting it at midnight and beyond for me. I would rather not if possible.
<amachu> persia: :-)
<amachu> fine then, we shall continue with 11.00 UTC, and also include zakame and belutz in this
<elkbuntu> uh yeah. unless someone wants to fund the 'reanimate luke and melissa because they died of lack of sleep' fund ;)
<jsgotangco> lol
<elkbuntu> well, i get up at 6:30 so, 'after midnight' is not really a healthy option
<jsgotangco> 14UTC is pretty late for those in south east asia/australia/nz
<persia> Right.   Let's stick with the current time, and expect people in India to either be able to make it, or to be able to stay up until the EMEA meeting (or get up early enough for the Americas meeting), with possible future dicsussion if there is a large backlog.
<amachu> persia: thats fine then
<amachu> we shall wind up for the day
<amachu> shall we?
<amachu> or do we think of day change than time?
<elkbuntu> i think this should involve the people who are not here more than it should involve those who are -- so lets take it to the ML
<TheMuso> Agreed.
<amachu> yes
<amachu> fine then. We will wind up.
<amachu> Thanks for participating
<amachu> Our next meeting on 23 Sep 08, 11.00 AM UTC
<amachu> bye
<elkbuntu> thanks for chairing yet again, and not disconnecting! (/me hits the wooden table repeatedly)
<amachu> elkbuntu: :-)
<TheMuso> hahaha
<lifeless> sorry guys
<mdz> hi
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 09:03. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> the fridge calendar doesn't seem to be updated, though I saw some email which indicates that's being sorted
<mdz> this is the bi-weekly technical board meeting
<mdz> Scott is ill today and won't be able to attend
<sabdfl> nothing on the agenda
<sabdfl> anything from the floor?
<mdz> open issues I'm aware of: cdrtools, converting interim ubuntu-core-dev members to per-package upload rights, board membership/nominations
<sabdfl> on cdrtools
<mdz> [TOPIC] cdrtools
<MootBot> New Topic:  cdrtools
<sabdfl> we've engaged with Sun legal, and the SFLC, and will speak in detail to them over the next two weeks
<sabdfl> i don't know how long it will take to get a firm legal opinion
<sabdfl> joerg has been open to the engagement, so hopefully we get a clear statement from SFLC on whether we can ship it as joerg describes, or not
<sabdfl> and if not, hopefully joerg is open to the guidance they provide, to the extent he can resolve issues of licensing with his own contributions
<sabdfl> and also, hopefully, Sun will adopt the same approach with OpenSolaris
<sabdfl> nothing further from me on that front this week
<mdz> ok
<mdz> [TOPIC] migration from interim core-dev to ACLs
<MootBot> New Topic:  migration from interim core-dev to ACLs
<mdz> I've sent out email to the two ubuntu-core-devs who are in this transitional state
<mdz> I've heard back from one, who has some questions and concerns which I'll work on
<mdz> the other I haven't heard back from and need to ping again
<mdz> (and have just done, now that I remembered)
<mdz> [TOPIC] board membership/nominations
<MootBot> New Topic:  board membership/nominations
<cjwatson> I'm interested in those questions and concerns, but perhaps offline
<sabdfl> we shortlisted 4 candidates for the TB
<sabdfl> i wrote to each of them asking if they were willing to stand, and also if they were willing to face a competitive selection process with votes from ubuntu developers selecting 2 out of 4 candidates
<sabdfl> have heard back from 3
<sabdfl> all willing to serve on the TB (yay!) and all open to a competitive vote (yay!), but one who has asked for his candidacy to be deferred till he can make some space for it
<sabdfl> so, we have at least 2 willing and able shortlisted candidates
<sabdfl> am waiting for a final word, then we can decide whether we want to hold an election or confirmation votes
<sabdfl> i'd prefer to have a 2-out-of-4 election than a 2-out-of-3 election, so am still open to more shortlist candidates
<sabdfl> nothing further from me
<mdz> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<mdz> anything else?
<sabdfl>  -
<mdz> thanks, all
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:13.
<sabdfl> cheers all
 * nxvl waves
<nijaba> o/
<sommer> hey all
 * jdstrand waves
<kirkland> howdy
<soren> o/
<Koon> \o
<mathiaz> hi folks !
<mathiaz> let's get this started
<mathiaz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:02. The chair is mathiaz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * mathiaz woahhh
<soren> Wow.
<mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
 * nijaba cheers at mootbot's return
<mathiaz> Last week meeting minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080902
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ubuntu VM builder
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu VM builder
<soren> That would be me.
<mathiaz> soren: status ?
<soren> As you may have noticed, I never posted my blog entry about it.
<soren> That's because of a parted bug that would bite a *lot* of users of it, so I wanted to wait until I could get that fixed.
<mathiaz> soren: ok
<soren> The alpha freeze delayed that a bit, but I'll be uploading a fix today, and when that's built, I'll submit my blog post.
<mathiaz> nijaba: still on track to write the tutorial ?
<nijaba> mathiaz: some progress
<soren> I've been spending some time since last meeting ironing out some of the regressions from the old ubuntu-vm-builder, and it's going quite well, I think.
<nijaba> mathiaz: can been monitored at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOSVMBuilder
<mathiaz> nijaba: is that based on the JeOS tutorial you wrote last year ?
<nijaba> mathiaz: it is a rewrite to show how to use vmbuilder instead
<mathiaz> nijaba: great
<mathiaz> sommer: are you waiting for soren's post to update the Ubuntu Doc guide ?
<sommer> mathiaz: not really, just didn't have as much time last week
<mathiaz> [ACTION] soren to write a blog post about vm-builder once it's available in the archive
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren to write a blog post about vm-builder once it's available in the archive
<sommer> mathiaz: should get that updated this week, or once the new package is in the repos
<mathiaz> [ACTION] nijaba to write a tutorial on vm-builder - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOSVMBuilder
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nijaba to write a tutorial on vm-builder - https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOSVMBuilder
<soren> Oh, the vm-builder is in the archive.
<mathiaz> sommer: great
<soren> It's the parted fix that needs to be uploaded.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to update the virtualization section of the server guide with references to the new ubuntu-vm-builder
<MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to update the virtualization section of the server guide with references to the new ubuntu-vm-builder
<sommer> soren: yep, sorry I just wasn't sure last week what package to use
<soren> sommer: Ah, yes. I remember something about that. It's all sorted now, right?
<mathiaz> The new package is called vm-builder
<sommer> soren: should be good to go
<mathiaz> and the source package name is actually python-vm-builder
<mathiaz> soren: is there anything else to report wrt to vm-builder ?
<soren> Nope.
<mathiaz> ok. Let's move on
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ServerGuide for Intrepid
<soren> Well, lots of cool details, but nothing I want to spend meeting time on.
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ServerGuide for Intrepid
 * soren shuts up now
<mathiaz> soren: sure - we'll get all the juicy details in your blog post
<mathiaz> sommer: did you get reviews ?
<mathiaz> I haven't had time to review the openldap guide.
<sommer> jdstrand reviewd the ufw section, other than that nope
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to review the ldap section of the server guide
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to review the ldap section of the server guide
<jdstrand> it looked great. thanks sommer!
<mathiaz> kirkland: still planning to review the RAID section ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: yes, definitely
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to review the RAID section of the server guide
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to review the RAID section of the server guide
<mathiaz> sommer: when is the deadline ?
<mathiaz> sommer: IIRC there is a string freeze at some point
<sommer> mathiaz: october 2nd
<sommer> about 3 weeks
<mathiaz> ok - this week's freeze is UI freeze
<mathiaz> sommer: anything else to add to the Server Guide ?
<nxvl> mathiaz: are we affected by UI freeze?
<sommer> nope, I think that's all the news
<mathiaz> sommer: great - thanks for all the work
<sommer> :)
<kirkland> sommer: yeah, thanks a lot
<mathiaz> We're mainly looking for reviewers now
<mathiaz> nxvl: yes - but to a lesser extend than the desktop team
<nxvl> oh ok
<mathiaz> nxvl: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserInterfaceFreeze
<mathiaz> nxvl: ^^ that's the definition of UIFreeze
<mathiaz> nxvl: it's mainly oriented towards desktop
<mathiaz> nxvl: but we could probably adapt it to server applications.
<nxvl> yeah, that's what i thougt, just making sure
<nxvl> :D
<mathiaz> nxvl: now is a good time to review the server guide and make sure that command line are correct
<mathiaz> nxvl: they should not change until release, unless we ask for it as we're in UIFreeze
<mathiaz> That's all from last week minutes
<mathiaz> is there anything else to add ?
<nxvl> to the las week minutes?
<mathiaz> nxvl: yes
<nxvl> then no
<nxvl> :D
<mathiaz> ok - let's move on then
<mathiaz> Review progress made on the specification listed on the Roadmap
<mathiaz> the Roadmap: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Boot Support for Degraded RAID
<MootBot> New Topic:  Boot Support for Degraded RAID
<mathiaz> kirkland: anything new there ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: funny you should ask :-)
<kirkland> mathiaz: i just installed a new VM with the ubuntu-server ISO that was just built a few minutes ago
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm testing a minor fix to grub-installer
<kirkland> mathiaz: i think this should be code-complete at this point
<kirkland> mathiaz: and fairly thoroughly tested
<kirkland> mathiaz: the next thing to test would be crazy combinations and layers
<kirkland> mathiaz: of lvm + crypt + raid
<mathiaz> kirkland: ok - sounds like testing is the next step for this topic.
<kirkland> mathiaz: jumble the order of those, and retest
<kirkland> mathiaz: yeah, i'm going to write another blog entry calling for testing
<mathiaz> kirkland: did you blog about it ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: unfortunately, this subject requires very thick skin
<kirkland> mathiaz: lots of people are very negatively vocal about it
<mathiaz> kirkland: right - the bug is no longer useful
<kirkland> mathiaz: rarely much technical topics to argue...  just griping mostly
<kirkland> mathiaz: anyway, i'll blog again
<mathiaz> kirkland: I think we should blog about it and ask for testing
<kirkland> mathiaz: there's one more little thing that i think would be worth asking
<mathiaz> kirkland: also document it in the release notes for the next alpha and bet
<mathiaz> kirkland: beta
<kirkland> mathiaz: there should be a debconf question posted in the installer, asking for what behavior you want, BOOT_DEGRADED=true|false
<kirkland> mathiaz: i will do that...  there was a known issue in Alpha5, so i didn't add it to the release notes
<mathiaz> kirkland: have you discussed that with the installer team ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: yes
<kirkland> mathiaz: i owe cjwatson that code
<kirkland> mathiaz: he suggested adding it fairly close to (or even in) partman
<mathiaz> kirkland: does it require a FF exception ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: the "easy" solution is just to make that debconf question "high" in the mdadm package
<kirkland> mathiaz: but that would make that question prompt sometime *much* later, after the partitioning has been accomplished
<kirkland> mathiaz: probably would require an FFe...  I'll try to do it today
<kirkland> mathiaz: it's not much code
<mathiaz> kirkland: right - seems like partman is the best place to ask for it.
<kirkland> mathiaz: right, i have a local partman-md branch
<kirkland> mathiaz: i've done the code, haven't tested it
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to write another blog post asking for raid testing
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to write another blog post asking for raid testing
<kirkland> sounds good
<mathiaz> [ACTION] kirkland to add a question to the installer about the default behavior
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to add a question to the installer about the default behavior
<mathiaz> anything else on RAID ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: fyi, my tests of the current server iso just succeeded!!!!
<kirkland> mathiaz: blog post can happen immediately
<kirkland> mathiaz: I don't think so
<mathiaz> kirkland: awesome. Thanks for the work.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] UFW Package Integration
<MootBot> New Topic:  UFW Package Integration
<kirkland> mathiaz: you bet :-)
<mathiaz> jdstrand: ^^ ?
<mathiaz> jdstrand: I ran into some issue when doing alpha5 testing
<jdstrand> bug?
 * mathiaz looking for the bug
<jdstrand> it's likely one I am working on _right now_
<mathiaz> jdstrand: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/265097
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 265097 in debian-installer "openssh-server fails to install when preseeded with pkgsel/include" [Undecided,New]
<jdstrand> mathiaz: that's a dup of one I have fixed and will be uploading today
<mathiaz> jdstrand: ok
<mathiaz> jdstrand: anything else ?
<jdstrand> nope, just bug fixing. I may be able to get case-insensitivity matching for app rules, but might not
<jdstrand> (thanks to didrocks)
<mathiaz> jdstrand: awesome.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Manpage Repository
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Manpage Repository
<mathiaz> kirkland: ^^ ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: \o/
<kirkland> mathiaz: big thanks to lamont jones for rolling it out to production, as well as to kees, jdstrand, and cjwatson for reviewing the code along the way
<kirkland> mathiaz: i've gotten an enormous amount of positive feedback, as well as constructive criticism
<didrocks> jdstrand: you're welcome (again) :)
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm encouraging people to file bugs against the Launchpad project
<kirkland> mathiaz: I'm fixing those as I can (this is a night/weekends/after-hours project)
<kirkland> mathiaz: i'm going to ask lamont to roll out a batch of updates later this week
<kirkland> mathiaz: i could use help, if anyone else is interested :-)
<mathiaz> kirkland: IIRC you've also blogged about it, right ?
<mathiaz> kirkland: what kind of help ?
<nijaba> kirkland: what language did you use?
<kirkland> mathiaz: yes, and it got picked up by Digg, so the traffic has been overwhelming
<kirkland> mathiaz: 1) man should be patched to optionally fall back and pull missing manpages from the web archive (that will need to be C code)
<kirkland> nijaba: HTML, CSS, Javascript, Shell, Perl, and Python :-)
<nijaba> kirkland: 618 diggs now
<mathiaz> kirkland: are these tasks recorded somewhere ? in LP bugs ? or a wiki page ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: 2) the search.py search engine could be improved...  right now, exact title matches only
<kirkland> mathiaz: i have a wiki page, i will add to-do tasks to it
<Koon> kirkland: I agree with Bryce comment on the ML: at first glance, I thought it was empty.
<kirkland> Koon: yes, i'm going to make a nice front page
<kirkland> Koon: lesson learned, i should have done that ahead of time
<Koon> otherwise it rocks !
<kirkland> also, the doc team would like a reverse proxy, serving all of this via help.ubuntu.com/manuals
<kirkland> there have been some negative criticism about hosting at manpages.ubuntu.com
<mathiaz> kirkland: all of this seems great
<kirkland> mathiaz: thanks
<kirkland> mathiaz: it's been on my little home server so long, and i couldn't really tell anyone about it there
<kirkland> mathiaz: now that it's production hosted, we can get feedback and improve it
<mathiaz> kirkland: excellent.
<kirkland> mathiaz: i have a bit to say about Encrypted Private
<mathiaz> let's move on.
<kirkland> mathiaz: if there's a spot for it here
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Encrypted ~/Private Directory in Each User's Home
<MootBot> New Topic:  Encrypted ~/Private Directory in Each User's Home
<kirkland> mathiaz: cjwatson added a debconf question to the alternate installer
<kirkland> mathiaz: i know you raised a question about the appropriateness on the Server CD
<kirkland> mathiaz: we can discuss that here, or elsewhere, at your discretion
<mathiaz> kirkland: we can discuss that later
<nxvl> kirkland: did you already thought about how the hardy -> intrepid upgrade will be on that topic?
<kirkland> mathiaz: okay
<kirkland> nxvl: yeah, so i wrote some code that would attempt to migrate data from a non-encrypted directory to an encrypted one
<kirkland> nxvl: as well as back
<kirkland> nxvl: it used rsync
<kirkland> nxvl: however, i found many corner cases where things could go wrong, and there could be data lost
<mathiaz> nxvl: we've just started to test upgrades
<kirkland> nxvl: ie, if data were being written to the source, unecrypted directory while doing the encryption migration
<kirkland> nxvl: so instead, i added a check to ecryptfs-setup-private
<mathiaz> nxvl: what do you mean by upgrade testing ?
<kirkland> nxvl: that requires that ~/.Private and ~/Private be empty in order to proceed
<kirkland> nxvl: it'll tell the user that they should move this data out of the way, or do their own migration after the fact
<kirkland> anyway, that's it from me on this, mathiaz
<nxvl> mathiaz: as in, i have hardy, without ~/Private encrypted directory, the i upgrade to intrepid, will i get an ecrypted dir or will i we supposed to configure it by hand
<nxvl> kirkland: souind fair
<nxvl> sounds*
<mathiaz> nxvl: good point - I don't think that intrepid will have a Private directory by default on new install.
<mathiaz> kirkland: ^^ ? Am I wrong ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: right, the default answer to that question is "No"
<kirkland> mathiaz: that's what's highlighted in the debconf question in the alternate installer
<kirkland> mathiaz: I haven't seen Ubiquity and the graphic installer
<kirkland> mathiaz: i don't know if the quesiton is there too or not
<mathiaz> nxvl: so I don't think we should add a Private directory on upgrade if a new install won't have it.
<mathiaz> all right - let's move on.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Tomcat6 server stack support
<MootBot> New Topic:  Tomcat6 server stack support
<mathiaz> Koon: ^^ ?
<nxvl> mathiaz: oh! ok, i just saying that in some point, if we are going to have it by default we need to think on that
<Koon> The two remaining issues in Java dependencies were fixed yesterday, bringing the total dep count from 87 packages down to a more reasonable 27 packages.
<mathiaz> nxvl: agreed.
<Koon> zul seeded the packages yesterday and they made it to the server CD  daily build
<Koon> resulting in a net increase of about +20Mb in size
<mathiaz> Koon: excellent. So the next step is to add a task ?
<Koon> there are still a couple of deps that could be removed (gcj recommends) but that should rather be in intrepid+1
<Koon> mathiaz: yes
<Koon> basically the tomcat6 task would install tomcat6, tomcat6-examples tomcat6-docs and tomcat6-admin
<mathiaz> Koon: are we going to get oversized cd with tomcat6 now in -ship ?
<Koon> mathiaz: CDs are at 637 Mb with them in
<mathiaz> Koon: right - I've added landscape-client this morning and that will bring in additional package.
<mathiaz> Koon: so we may have to look into the recommends as we're approaching the limit.
<Koon> do you know if we can skip recommends in the CD ?
<mathiaz> Koon: I'm not sure. I don't think so.
<mathiaz> Koon: but we can blacklist packages.
<mathiaz> Koon: I don't mean that we'll have to trim tomcat6. We just need to be aware of this issue and try to see where we may be able to gain space.
<persia> Skipping recommends on the CD is technically possible, but it can cause a confusing package state when handling support later, as you have two different possible "default package selection"s
<mathiaz> Koon: as we're approaching the limit.
<Koon> mathiaz: basically we can remove the *gcj* packages. they get pulled in through a libecj-java -> libecj-java-gcj recommend that doko wants to keep in that cycle
<mathiaz> Koon: ok. We'll see what happens in the next -server iso builds.
<mathiaz> Koon: if they're oversized we'll have to look into that issue.
<Koon> in related news, I've started fixing the tomcat5.5 packages
<Koon> mainly backporting fixes I've implemented in the tomcat6 packages.
<mathiaz> Koon: are you in contact with the debian maintainer team ?
<Koon> mathiaz: I'll send them the patches
<mathiaz> Koon: are these bug fixes ?
<dendrobates> mathiaz: we need to review all packages that are on the iso to see what does not belong.
<Koon> mathiaz: it's mostly adaptations to the new java virtuals names
<mathiaz> Koon: would you need FF exceptions ?
<mathiaz> dendrobates: yes. We can do that this week.
<Koon> mathiaz: I don't think so. That fixes bugs like "tomcat 5.5 won't install"
<Koon> and security issues
<mathiaz> Koon: ok.
<Koon> mathiaz: I'll make you review them so that you can tell me if there is a risk
<mathiaz> Koon: ok.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to review Koon patch wrt to FF exceptio
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to review Koon patch wrt to FF exceptio
<mathiaz> Koon: anything else on the topic of Tomcat ?
<Koon> mathiaz: no.
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Open Discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion
<mathiaz> Anyone wants to add something ?
<kirkland> mathiaz: i have one....
<dendrobates> mathiaz: landscape-client has been uploaded.
<kirkland> mathiaz: anyone who has an intrepid system, run:
<kirkland> service --status-all
<kirkland> that'll show you what init scripts have a status action, and which ones don't ;-)
<kirkland> very revealing, since we now have a real "service" script!
<Koon>  * Loading kernel modules...
<sommer> cool
<Koon> * Loading manual drivers...                                             [ OK ]
<Koon> ??
<Koon> this one probably has a broken status action  :)
<kirkland> Koon: looks like a bug in that script ;-)
<kirkland> yeah, revealing
 * kirkland yields the floor to dendrobates for landscape-client
<mathiaz> kirkland: Koon: LP is your friend then
<nealmcb> :)
<dendrobates> landscape-client will be on the next alpha
<dendrobates> landscape-sysinfo output will be included in motd.
<dendrobates> Comments, and fixes are very welcome.
<dendrobates> as well as new modules.
<mathiaz> dendrobates: ok - I'll write up a blog post about this.
<dendrobates> thx.
<mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to write a blog post about landscape in intrepid.
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to write a blog post about landscape in intrepid.
<mathiaz> anything else ?
 * nijaba thinks that's it...
<mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time
<mathiaz> Next week, same time, same place ?
<nijaba> +1
<sommer> o//
<nijaba> err...  I won't be there.  I'll be at VMworld
<dendrobates> +i
<mathiaz> all right - see you all next week, same time, same place
<soren> o/
<mathiaz> keep up the good work
<nijaba> warning: i is not initialized
<kirkland> +e^(-pi*i)
<mathiaz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:08.
<nijaba> thanks mathiaz
<sommer> thanks mathiaz, later all
 * nxvl waves
<kirkland> later
<nijaba> l8r all
<cjwatson> mathiaz: FWIW I wouldn't consider 637MB anywhere close to your limit
<cjwatson> that's loads of headroom
<shaunjonesfzr> hi all
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-09-10
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 11 Sep 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 11 Sep 13:00: Desktop Team | 11 Sep 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 12 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 11 Sep 13:00: Desktop Team | 11 Sep 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 12 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC
<mneptok> \o/
<pleia2> :)
<Arc> yo
<pleia2> ok folks - Americas Council meeting!
 * mneptok tickles pleia2 mercilessly
<pleia2> meep!
<mneptok> it's "mnep."
<pleia2> :P
<mneptok> but whatever.
<pleia2> vorian? nixternal?
<pleia2> oh good :)
<Technoviking> sorry I'm late
<pleia2> np, still waiting for everyone
<Technoviking> just got home
<mneptok> hail Technoviking!
 * mneptok points skyward
<mneptok> (hi Mike) :)
 * Technoviking points 
 * Technoviking rave dances
 * pleia2 goes to track down council
<mneptok> pleia2: try waving some fake Intrepid beta .iso's around. that'll get their attention.
<pleia2> haha
<Technoviking> lets sic a jackalope om them
<Technoviking> s/om/on
<mneptok> i prefer "om." i like picturing Hare Krishna jackalopes.
<mneptok> what a great potential band name.
<pleia2> still searching, sorry folks
 * mneptok whistles the "Jeopardy!" theme
<Technoviking> woot!
<cody-somerville> \o/
<pleia2> yay!
<pleia2> ok, one more
 * mneptok switches to the "Twilight Zone" theme
<pleia2> I think, we need 4 right?
<vorian> hi
<pleia2> yay!
<vorian> just got home
<pleia2> ok, lets start this thing :)
<pleia2> Arc: you're up!
<Arc> really?
<Arc> ok
<Technoviking> ya'rly
<Arc> ... ok I'm at a loss of words :-P
<Arc> how does this work?
<pleia2> Arc: a blurb about yourself, with links to your wiki, launchpad, ed
<pleia2> etc
<Arc> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArcRiley
<Arc> https://launchpad.net/~arcriley
<Arc> I've been doing Ubuntu promotion for a few years now, and have gotten pretty active with our LoCo
<Arc> and I've been pretty impressed with what I've seen lately in how organized things are in the Ubuntu project
<MagicFab> sorry to jump in- meeting agenda URL anyone ? can't seem tofind it, notlinked at http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1631
<pleia2> MagicFab: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<cody-somerville> Arc, It seems like you've been very active in the Free Software world for close to a decade now. When did you first get involved with Ubuntu?
<Arc> I first installed it in 2005 IIRC
<Arc> I don't use it as my primary distro, I'm a Gentoo guy through and through, but maintain my own Ubuntu boxes and most of my consulting/community work is with Ubuntu
<Arc> Gentoo isn't exactly the best way to spread free software :-)
<cody-somerville> Okay. What do you feel has been your biggest contribution to Ubuntu to date? Would it be your consulting/community work?
<cody-somerville> :]
<Arc> well it'd likely be through the recycling project.  we flooded Ithaca, NY with Ubuntu boxes
<Arc> we got to the point that when we tabled, a majority of people told us they already had that version, downloaded it, got it from a neighbor, etc
<Arc> IFSA was spoken about at the 2007 FSF annual member meeting as a "model" for other cities, it's what inspired the FSF to promote local groups
<pleia2> Arc: I see you're interested in taking your advocacy to libraries, are you at all involved with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuInLibraries ? or planning to be?
<pleia2> the project is a bit quiet right now, but I think it could really benefit from your experience once you get going
<Arc> yea, but embarrasingly I didn't know of that URL
<Arc> we didn't succeed to get Ithaca's libraries to use Ubuntu because they feared loosing the Gates Foundation grants in the future
<Arc> but NH libraries have shown an interest, and GNHLUG members have talked about the main limitation being shortage of geeks to work with them.  I've talked to a few librarians already
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> Arc, did you bring any advocates with you today?
<Arc> what constitutes an advocate?
<Arc> an ubuntu member, or anyone in the community?
<cody-somerville> Generally an ubuntu member but there isn't a rule or anything :]
<pleia2> I can speak up for the hard work he's done with the NH LoCo over the past few months, working with the US mentors and LoCo council to get some issues straightened out, as well as his general attention to loco meetings and such
<Arc> one sec having another LoCo member join
<stevie> anyone here to cheer for Arc?
<cody-somerville> Arc, would it be fair to say that your contributions have been more distribution agnostic, more targetted to FOSS in general?
<Arc> over the last few years they've been very specific for Ubuntu
<cody-somerville> Can you give a few more examples?
<Arc> well Canonical was sending us several large boxes of CDs for a few releases in a row, and I took responsibility to make sure they got distributed
<Arc> >1000 CDs took quite a bit of foot work to distribute, they sent the nice point of sale glossy distro boxes that I got the library to let us put there, boxes at the local colleges, local stores
<cody-somerville> I imagine.
<Arc> when I advertised my consulting services, I started putting "Ubuntu" instead of "Linux" since many people didn't even know they were running Linux and I was mostly unfamiliar with Fedora/etc at that point
<Arc> and I likely spent 2-3X more time doing free help for people than paid
 * cody-somerville nods.
<cody-somerville> Arc, is your other loco team member joining?
<Arc> yea nikkiana_lappy
<cody-somerville> nikkiana_lappy, tell us about how great Arc is and specifically about his contributions :-)
<Arc> well she wrote a testimonial too, if she's AFK
<cody-somerville> Alrighty :-(
<cody-somerville> We generally look for applicants to have a few people here at the meeting to cheer you on.
<Arc> yea most of the people I work with don't IRC, so I got testimonials instead
<Arc> Mitch for example runs IFSA at this point (I moved to NH last October)
<cody-somerville> Arc, I think you're on the right track for Ubuntu membership but I'd like to see more ubuntu-specific activity for Ubuntu Members. I hear you've done some great work with your LoCo Team in the last few months and I'd like to see you keep that up. Your contributions to FOSS in general have certainly not gone unnoticed by me.
<Arc> how much more specific is needed?
<cody-somerville> I think your work with your LoCo Team is on the right track there - I'd like to see more of that over a sustained period of time. I think if you could bring some folks from your LoCo Team it would certainly help me see that.
<Arc> does my involvement with other FOSS activities count against me rather than for me?
<stevie> i agree with cody-somerville, i think you are off to a great start.  I would like to see you sustain your work for a while longer.
<Technoviking> Arc: It counts for you for sure
 * cody-somerville nods with Technoviking.
<Technoviking> but we like to see a good ammount of work in the area of Ubuntu
<cody-somerville> Arc, I think having some folks from your LoCo team here to cheer you on would make all the difference.
<pleia2> I'm abstaining for now
<Arc> so years of the recycling center, running Ubuntu-specific installfests, support, etc isn't enough?
<cody-somerville> Arc, Its hard for us to distinguish those activities between generalist work in the FOSS community and the Ubuntu community.
<cody-somerville> Arc, Ubuntu membership is to recognize Ubuntu community members and activity in the FOSS community in not the criteria we use to give that recognition.
<Arc> so it'd be better if that had all been done under a LoCo banner rather than IFSA?
<mneptok> Arc: don't hear a "no" when what's being said is "not *just* yet"   :)
<Technoviking> You can come back at anytime
<Arc> my concern in the "not just yet" is that I don't think in the next year I could substantially add to what I've already done
<cody-somerville> Arc, As I said, I think having some people here to cheer you on would make all the difference.
<mneptok> Arc: i don't think you need to add. just keep doing what you're doing, keep an Ubuntu focus to it, and get some other team members to vouch for you.
<pleia2> Arc: I think making progress with getting the NH LoCo off the ground and doing events would be very helpful - would help clear up some of the confusion between your general foss work and Ubuntu work
 * cody-somerville nods.
<mneptok> Arc: SOftware Freedom Day is coming up. an Intrepid release party or installfest ...
<Arc> I'm the "team leader" for SFD in Concord
<Arc> we have a permit to table in front of the State House from 10am to 6pm, a conference pack from Canonical plus GNHLUG people doing more generic FOSS advocacy
<mneptok> Arc: so there you go. use that day to distribute Ubuntu CDs and have some other team members let us know about it. that's the sort of thing that goes a long way.
<Arc> hows this for Ubuntu-specific stuff; http://www.theithacajournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Site=AF&Date=20070625&Category=PHOTOGALLERIES03&ArtNo=706250801&Ref=PH&Params=Itemnr=3
<Arc> the article that's from (I can't find it on the web) was on the front page the next day, to all of our shock.
<cody-somerville> Nice :-]
<cody-somerville> Anyhow, we need to move on to the next applicant now. Thanks for showing up Arc :]
<Arc> thanks
<pleia2> swe3tdave: are you here?
<swe3tdave> yeap
<pleia2> you're up :)
<swe3tdave> ok.. ;)  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DavidGiard
<swe3tdave> https://launchpad.net/~swe3tdave
<swe3tdave> Well, in december 2005, i started working on starting a team for French Canadian, the QuebecTeam, so i've been working on the web site mostly. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuebecTeam/WebAdminLog
<swe3tdave> Since then i got ownership of the https://edge.launchpad.net/loco-drupal project and the https://edge.launchpad.net/~loco-drupal-dev team on launchpad i started contributing, all the work i do for the ubuntu-qc.org web site, to it.
<swe3tdave> So i created a Drupal 6 theme for LoCoTeams, and i am in the process of expanding it to tools, by adding some modified module, maybe creating one or two from scratch in the futur. And in the far futur, probably a complete drupal tarball for LoCoTeams, ready to upload.
 * MagicFab cheers for swe3tdave 
 * avoine too
<pleia2> very impressive work swe3tdave :)
<swe3tdave> thank you, ;)
<pleia2> swe3tdave: future plans?
<MagicFab> swe3tdave is an unstoppable workhorse
<swe3tdave> lol
<MagicFab> sometimes not very visible but always showing up when other go
<pleia2> hehe
 * mneptok cheers for *anyone* helping MagicFab with Ubuntu-QC!  ;)
<swe3tdave> well, i would like to go to one the release party magicfab is organising in montreal... 200 geek on a bar.. it must be something, i dont really organise it.. but since i helped to start the team.. ;)
<mneptok> swe3tdave: Software Freedom Day a Berri-UQAM!
<cody-somerville> swe3tdave, so you got involved in 2005?
<swe3tdave> for the futur, i guess right now i've been focusing on building planet ubuntu quebec.. ;)
<swe3tdave> ubuntu-qc.org
<swe3tdave> yep.. it started as a translation of the canadian team..
<pleia2> very nice
<swe3tdave> when i saw no one got interested, i started asking around what was wrong..
<swe3tdave> then MagicFab, told me to start a quebecteam.. ;)
<cody-somerville> swe3tdave, you can stop, we're ready to vote.
<swe3tdave> and this is exactly what i did...
<cody-somerville> +1 from me.
<swe3tdave> ah ok.. ;)
<pleia2> +1
<Technoviking> +1
 * cody-somerville cues the jeopardy music for stevie.
 * mneptok whistles the "Jeopardy!" theme (on queue)
 * Technoviking raves to the Jeopardy theme
<cody-somerville> \o)
<cody-somerville> (o/
 * MagicFab kicks som salsa steps
<swe3tdave> :)
<MagicFab> errr - well you got the idea - congrats!
<stevie> yes!
<stevie> +1 form me too :)
<swe3tdave> cool
<Technoviking> lol
<pleia2> congrats swe3tdave :)
<cody-somerville> Everyone do the wave! - \o\ - (o\ - (o/
<Technoviking> o
<MagicFab> I almost got sucked into starting another loco team and all I got is this lousy T-Shirt .. oh.. wait.. no t-shirt for that here...
<stevie> yay!
<Technoviking> that is for tonight? got to get my son to bed
<dthomasdigital> Hello
<dthomasdigital> I was on the list
 * mneptok points at dthomasdigital 
<pleia2> oops, didn't see you there
<mneptok> pleia2: he's wearing camouflage Underoos
<pleia2> too much of that going on
<pleia2> dthomasdigital: go for it :)
<dthomasdigital> Hello, I have been using Ubuntu for 3 years and I live, breath, sleep, blog, promote and preach Ubuntu. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/dthomasdigital
<dthomasdigital> The New Mexico LoCo has been a part of a few ambitious and successful projects, and I work hard to grow are membership.
<pleia2> dthomasdigital: what was your proposed topic at Live?
<dthomasdigital> It was open source applications in the enterprise.
 * mneptok met dthomasdigital in Albuquerqie this weekend!
<mneptok> *Albuquerque
<dthomasdigital> details of that talk can be found here at HDI's 2008 conf http://www.thinkhdi.com/hdi2008/session.aspx?SessionID=1082
<mneptok> he and some other LoCo team members were nice enough to share a dinner with me and let me know about what the NM LoCo is doing.
<cody-somerville> mneptok, are you cheering for dthomasdigital?
<dthomasdigital> I work for that State of New Mexico where 2 years ago there were no Ubuntu devices we now run 8 Ubuntu servers have 10 workstation running desktop ubuntu and all public kiosk run ubuntu
<mneptok> dthomasdigital: i'm glad some of the issues that kept you away from LoCo work recently are now resolved. the team seems really anxious and happy to have you back, which really speaks well of your contributions to their efforts.
<dthomasdigital> protonchris from our loco is here as well
<mneptok> cody-somerville: i am. the NM LoCo team seems to have really benefitted from his contributions.
<cody-somerville> +1 from me.
<protonchris> dthomasdigital is an integral part of the NM LoCo.
<mneptok> cody-somerville: *plus* he ate a meal with me and never threw a punch. i know you know the imprtance of that statement.
<mneptok> ;)
<pleia2> +1
 * protonchris didn't punch mneptok .... at least not yet :)
<pleia2> mneptok is mostly for hugging
<mneptok> protonchris: you were on the other side of the table.
<stevie> +1 :)
<mneptok> Technoviking: now comes the time on "Sprockets" when we vote!
<dthomasdigital> We have really worked hard and continue to make the New Mexico Loco really shine.
<Technoviking> ya, +1 from me, now we dance
<pleia2> woo, congrats dthomasdigital :)
 * mneptok queues up the Kraftwerk!
<dthomasdigital> very cool, thank you very much. I won't let you down.
<mneptok> dthomasdigital: woot! conga-rats!
<stevie> congrats dthomasdigital :)
<dthomasdigital> Again thanks, Ubuntu is a great OS, and a great community.
<Technoviking> congrats
<Technoviking> night all
<pleia2> mm, sleep now
<mneptok> ooo! shiny button! *push*
<calc> hi
<TheMuso> Greetings folks.
<evand> hi
<ArneGoetje> hi
<liw> hi. everyone please check your firewalls are up, I have a cold and I may sneeze during the meeting
<davmor2> liw: that would be anti-virus then surely ;)
 * slangasek waves
<liw> davmor2, could be, I am not sure I can distinguish :)
<james_w> hi all
<cjwatson> hi, my apologies for being late today; I'm going to do the school run a bit differently next week to see if it works better
<cjwatson> asac,bryce_,doko_: pin
<cjwatson> g
<asac> oh high
<doko_> pon
<doko_> g
<asac> ;)
<asac> oops ;)
<asac> s/gh//
<cjwatson> doko: sarky :)
<cjwatson> also sorry I didn't send out an agenda, being in London yesterday threw me off a bit
<cjwatson> however, we did get a chance to do a dry-run of the procedure for dealing with a compromised archive signing key
<cjwatson> the good news is it almost works
<cjwatson> we do have a couple of bits to iron out, though, and the procedure required rather too much thought on the fly
<cjwatson> anyway, outstanding actions
<cjwatson> Colin or Evan to review to see if the /etc/fstab change is an adequate solution for long term.
<cjwatson> I've had a look at it; /etc/fstab really is a special case for ubiquity (it's the only file I can think of that's legitimately created before bulk file copying), so I think it's fair enough to handle it as such, although I'm going to make a small tweak to the actual implementation
<cjwatson> I think that's enough for that action
<cjwatson> Lars to find sponsor for system-cleaner
<liw> mvo promised to upload, and cjwatson puploaded python-fstab, which system-cleaner requires
<liw> waiting in the new queue for now
<liw> should I poke someone about it?
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration says that seb128 is the admin for the day
<liw> I'll ask him
<cjwatson> Evan to continue with usb-creator testing and write up MIR when ready
<cjwatson> MIR is done, although still more polishing to do
<evand> indeed
<cjwatson> evand: worth throwing it open for ubuntu-devel to test at some point
<cjwatson> ?
<evand> cjwatson: yes, though perhaps not tonight.
<evand> I'd like to see how the discussions with mpt go.
<mvo> liw: yeah, sorry for not reviewing that yet
<cjwatson> Colin to pass around idea of distro-activity
<cjwatson> this doesn't really seem to have been very popular, I'm afraid, and some were vocally against the idea
<asac> ack
<cjwatson> so I think the recommendation is that anything in your activity report that is of wider interest you should post as a mailing list thread
<cjwatson> I'll try to remember to encourage this
 * TheMuso often finds that its easier to start a thread to get testing for something important etc.
<cjwatson> evand: mpt> ack
 * cjwatson does a quick pass over activity reports for agenda items
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: thanks a lot for the new language packs
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: sorry for the delay... had some trouble with the exports...
<cjwatson> asac,james_w,doko,TheMuso: missing reports for you
<asac> cjwatson: sorry, should be in your inbox now
<TheMuso> cjwatson: You sure?
<cjwatson> ArneGoetje: yeah, I was tracking that; none of the delay was on your side as far as I can see
<doko> sending now
<cjwatson> TheMuso: whoops
<asac> ArneGoetje: new lang packs? just intrepid?
<cjwatson> TheMuso: I got confused by the different start date, sorry
<TheMuso> cjwatson: hehe no problem.
<ArneGoetje> cjwatson: true. jtv is going over the import log to see if he can fix the remaining pieces
<cjwatson> feature status (that we haven't already covered)
<cjwatson> TheMuso: how is PA looking?
<ArneGoetje> asac: just intrepid for now. hardy will follow soon.
<james_w> cjwatson: I sent mine yesterday I thought
<TheMuso> Well, PA is getting some rather good testing from packages in my PPA, with 0.9.12 being released in the last couple of days, which fixes some important issues that 0.9.11 raised. That along with some fixes from alsa-lib git, and people don't seem to be having too many problems, however one person still has an issue that has popped up since 0.9.11 that we have yet to track down.
<TheMuso> Pavucontrol and paprefs also got new releases, so I uploaded packages for those as well. Paprefs is probably not as important, as its not tied to a particularly recent version of pulse.
<james_w> cjwatson: I can forward it if you like
<TheMuso> Pavucontrol however requires 0.9.11 to be usable, so I guess trying to use an earlier version may present problems.
<cjwatson> james_w: ok, I'll check later, shout if there was anything in it that should be covered here
<james_w> cjwatson: no agenda items, no
<cjwatson> TheMuso: ok, are you liaising with upstream on things that come up?
<cjwatson> (PA upstream has asked for more contact from us, in general)
<TheMuso> There is also the final issue of gnome 2.24 using libcanberra, which gets the best functionality by using pulseaudio as a backend, which has to be 0.9.11 or greater. So at the moment, event sounds are broken.
 * asac reconnected
<TheMuso> cjwatson: Yes trying to do what I can with working with upstream to sort things out.
<cjwatson> ok, thanks
<cjwatson> Python 3
<cjwatson> doko: I don't think anyone followed up to my last mail to distro-team about this. Can I suggest that we include this in universe and build the python3-* modules we need from separate source? As I understand it modules will generally not be source-compatible anyway.
<cjwatson> that will avoid the security-support question for intrepid
<doko> cjwatson: sure, I will do that.
<cjwatson> ok, great
<cjwatson> system-cleaner we covered
<cjwatson> usb-creator we covered
<cjwatson> calc: you said that you'd prepared openoffice.org3 packages, so confirm that this is just blocked on agreeing the Sun-branded images?
<cjwatson> calc: if you don't hear back by Monday, please upload without the Sun branding and we can restore that later
<calc> cjwatson: the build i did was without the changing of the extension but yes, it should just be a flip of a variable to add the 3 and its ready other than the sun branding
<calc> i'll verify flipping the extension variable on works
<doko> calc: where are these packages? the PPA still has the beta
<calc> doko: see above haven't uploaded yet due to waiting on sun to approve the new images
<cjwatson> you could upload to the PPA without the branding
<calc> ok, i'll go ahead and do that then after switching the variable on it
<cjwatson> ok, please do ASAP, thanks
<doko> calc: please just upload to the PPA at least. it's not just the splash, there is other legal stuff
<calc> that bit hasn't been tested in a while so i need to make sure it still works
<cjwatson> the sooner we get build confirmation and stuff the better
<cjwatson> xorg-options-editor
<cjwatson> did that get reviewed and promoted?
<cjwatson> bryce_: ^-
<asac> hmm i cant find xorg-options-editor through apt-cache search
<cjwatson> it's python-xkit and screen-resolution-extra, both of which are apparently in main now
<asac> good
<cjwatson> asac: reminder to write MIRs for libmbca and mobile-broadband-provider-info (I know you asked for a feature freeze exception, but ...)
<asac> yes. ill try to do the in-depth review this week
<cjwatson> and Evan addressed Wubi in his activity report
<cjwatson> milestoned bugs for alpha-6: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1324
<cjwatson> nothing for us there, though there are some on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=1324
<cjwatson> I'm confused by bug 267682 being Critical but not targeted to intrepid
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 267682 in ubuntu "Hotkeys no longer working in Intrepid (evdev?)" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/267682
<cjwatson> please note that if you just attach a milestone to a bug, that's not release-critical, it's just to help your own organisation and workflow
<cjwatson> if you want a bug to be on the release team's radar, then you need to target it to intrepid as well
<bryce_> hi
<asac> good. so i understood correctly.
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RCBugTargetting
<bryce_> cjwatson: yes x-kit is in main, and the g-c-c changes are pushed
<cjwatson> bryce_: thanks, great
<cjwatson> asac: is bug 256054 not release-critical?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 256054 in network-manager "[intrepid] new 0.7 branch ignores /etc/network/interfaces" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/256054
<cjwatson> (it's High)
<cjwatson> calc: do you regard the high-priority openoffice.org bugs as release-critical?
<asac> cjwatson: it is release critical. but not for alpha-6.
<cjwatson> asac: it should be nominated for intrepid, then
<asac> ok done
<calc> cjwatson: i milestone the bugs i want to make sure are fixed for the release
<calc> cjwatson: if i don't know when they will be fixed for certain i generally make them for beta or final release
<cjwatson> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RCBugTargetting -> "To indicate that a bug should be fixed prior to the final release, the bug should be nominated using the "nominate for release" option in Launchpad. Use of milestone targeting is not required except in cases where delivery of the bugfix is relevant to the success of the milestone release"
<cjwatson> you can certainly use milestone targeting to indicate an "intention", as the next section down says
<calc> ok
<cjwatson> calc: anyway, no need to hash it out here, please review that page and make sure you're in line with what the release team is generally expecting people to do; that will let us work with you more effectively
<calc> ok
<bryce_> thanks for updating 267682; I'd marked it just so I wouldn't forget, but yes it's a release critical bug
<cjwatson> bryce_: are you going to work on 267682 some more? it has no assignee at the moment, and it seems to need some detailed analysis
<cjwatson> jinx
<bryce_> ah, timo is taking it; I'll assign to him
<cjwatson> bryce_: you said last week that 185311 was likely no longer to be relevant with the Java fix, but it's still on the RC list ...?
<bryce_> the issue as I understand it is that evdev is getting confused about whether the keys are mouse or keyboard events
 * cjwatson reads the tail-end of that bug
<bryce_> cjwatson: apparently there's still a vocal minority with non-java proprietary apps that are affected by it
<bryce_> cjwatson: I've talked with upstream and a real fix doesn't look likely to come any time soon
<bryce_> cjwatson: I'm not entirely sure how to handle this; ripping out libxcb in hardy seems pretty drastic, but presumably there's no other way to fix things for random proprietary apps
<cjwatson> I've followed up asking whether export LIBXCB_ALLOW_SLOPPY_LOCK=1 works
<bryce_> ok, although actually I believe that's set as default now
<cjwatson> hmm, yes
<bryce_> yeah the detail I've gotten on the level of troubleshooting done has been a bit disappointing
<bryce_> but lately some folks have posted test cases and such, which I think will make it easier
<cjwatson> ok, we can't process it here, but I agree it still needs to be release-critical if only because it should end up on the release notes if we can't fix it
<cjwatson> 251640 is still on my plate to do something about
<cjwatson> as is 262451, although I think that's probably no longer release-critical since the ufw bug that triggered it has been fixed
<cjwatson> and that's most of the >=high bugs on our list
<cjwatson> sponsorship queue
<cjwatson> this week I have done: minicom 111021 (bounced); cron 118168 (bounced); gtk-sharp2 254855 (uploaded, forwarded to Debian)
<cjwatson> other uploaders?
<asac> my queue size has been zero throughout the whole week
 * TheMuso has processed accessibility stack updates that were pending for GNOME.
<slangasek> I have linux-wlan-ng to close out today; otherwise my queue is empty
 * evand has slipped on processing his queue
<calc> my queue is empty or was when i looked yesterday
<calc> yep empty
<cjwatson> I'd just like to clarify that the new world order is that you won't get things assigned to you
<cjwatson> so you will not necessarily have your own queue
<cjwatson> we've asked for everyone to do an hour a week, which may well include going and looking for unassigned items on http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ and dealing with those
<calc> oh ok
 * calc had been wondering why nothing new got assigned to him
<cjwatson> right, the problem with that was that if somebody missed it then they had a lock on it and nobody else would look at it
<cjwatson> after a while, this accumulated into a big queue that wasn't getting processed
<bryce_> I did some time on sponsor queue work yesterday
<bryce_> here's a bookmarkable search to get the Ubuntu sponsor queue - http://tinyurl.com/63cfxt
<cjwatson> I find http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ pretty good; is it missing something?
<bryce_> well, it's good, although you can't sort/filter it down like in LP
<dholbach> bryce_: I could add that, should be easy
<dholbach> I'll take a look at it tomorrow
<doko> about bug 243130. not sure how to fix this properly. that would require an update of the config files on upgrade
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 243130 in fontconfig ""/etc/fonts/conf.d/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf", line 17: invalid constant used : lcdfilterlegacy" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/243130
<doko> the parameter name did change (upstream did choose another one when implementing this)
<cjwatson> these are conffiles, aren't they?
<doko> yes
<cjwatson> while it violates the letter of policy, we *could* say that if the conffile has been changed locally and is known to be wrong now then we can get away with changing it in a maintainer script
<cjwatson> however, it seems like it would be simpler just to add a tiny bit of compatibility code in fontconfig to support our old parameter name
<asac> doko: this is because we patched it in ubuntu before upstream applied something?
<doko> yes
<asac> right i wanted to suggest compatibility code for one cycle
<asac> with a warning
<cjwatson> that's what I've done in openssh, and IMO it's just what you get to deal with if you introduce new parameter names before upstream
<cjwatson> I'd suggest maintaining it forever
<cjwatson> the old configuration files won't go away, and people won't see the warnings
<asac> thats ok too
<doko> hmm, ok, will have a look then
<asac> (but upstream might introduce a conflicting constant at some point)
<cjwatson> that sort of compatibility is usually really easy to maintain, IME - just a single added line or similar
<doko> I assume editing the file where we ourself did use the parameter is ok as well?
<cjwatson> anyway, you could consider the maintainer script approach, but it would require extreme care
<cjwatson> editing which file?
<doko>  /etc/fonts/conf.d/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf and /etc/fonts/conf.avail/53-monospace-lcd-filter.conf
<asac> doko: so editing == maintainerscript?
<cjwatson> right, that's the "you might be able to get away with changing a conffile in the maintainer script if it was already changed locally" thing
 * TheMuso asks whether there is anything else he needs to be around for... I think we are over time, and I'd like to get to bed. :)
<cjwatson> I'd personally say that that's a lot *more* effort than maintaining compatibility with the old option name
<cjwatson> testing all the cases is really hard
<cjwatson> TheMuso: I think we're more or less done
<doko> ok
<cjwatson> let's move further fontconfig discussion to #-devel; thanks all
<cjwatson> adjourned
<asac> thanks
<evand> thanks
<TheMuso> thanks.
 * TheMuso crashes.
<calc> thanks
<cjwatson> (no time for AOB, bring it up on the list :-))
<ArneGoetje> thanks
<liw> thanks
<slangasek> thanks
<bryce_> thanks
<davmor2> Hello Everybody
<ara_> hi!
<heno> hey!
<bdmurray> hello
 * cgregan waves
 * ogasawara waves
<pedro_> hey hey!
<sbeattie> hey
<heno> I've pinged a few people, let's start
<heno> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:03. The chair is heno.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<schwuk> Hi all
<LaserJock> hi everybody
<heno> I didn't see any agenda items, but I've just added some ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<heno> First let's do a quick round-table of what QA work everyone has been up to this week
<heno> [TOPIC] Round table
<MootBot> New Topic:  Round table
<ara_> ok, I'll start
<heno> schwuk and I had a 2-day sprint where we talked about the certification site and reporting from test runs
 * stgraber waves
<ara_> or not :)
<heno> ara_: go ahead
<LaserJock> ara_: alphabetical order? :-)
<heno> schwuk: can you give a a summary after that?
<ara_> ok, last week I have following LDTP 1.3 Feature Freeze exception
<ara_> and it was finally accepted
<schwuk> heno: sure
<ara_> therefore Intrepid will be released with version 1.3 of LDTP which includes a lot of good bug fixes
<ara_> apart of that I have been preparing some PPAs (already in my archive) for the testing library and the desktop tests
<ara_> you can download them now if you want to give them a try
<ara_> as part of the UDW I gave a session on Thursday about the desktop testing library and how to use it
<ara_> alpha 5 testing occupied also some time
<ara_> schwuk: you can go now if you want
<schwuk> ara_: thanks
<schwuk> As heno  said we had a 2-day sprint covering a few topics
<mark_> This isn't seamonkey :/
<schwuk> The primary focus was reporting of the data collected by the checkbox tool, and how we can present/expose it.
<cr3> schwuk: fyi, a submission can now consist of >40K results :)
<schwuk> We also discussed enchancements to checkbox, and encouraging participation in isotesting, especially for milestone testing.
<schwuk> cr3: can or does?
<cr3> schwuk: fyi2, including disk information has been committed :)
<cr3> schwuk: does, see today's build results
<heno> but we urgently need to get those results reported in some form
<schwuk> Today I've been recovering from the long drive :), getting some testing hardware setup and the first cut of summary reports as discussed during the sprint.
<heno> because X pass Y fail means nothing to observers
<heno> I sent a summary to the list just now, but it needs more detail
<heno> you can look at the source code of the tests but that's inconvenient :)
<schwuk> heno: which is why we need to make them more visible/pretty
<heno> schwuk: yep - WIP
<cr3> heno: I was planning to add debugging information to each test so that a bug could be reported from a failure, but I was waiting for Launchpad integration beforehand. Adding debugging information is pretty easy though, so we might want to bump the priority.
<heno> We'll report back to the list as soon as we have something readable
<heno> cr3: it's too early to look at automated bug reporting
<heno> ok, let's move along
<heno> cr3 - roundtable blurb?
<cr3> heno: well, if we introduce debugging information before Launchpad integration, that would imply manual bug reporting... but at least we'd have all the necessary information
<cr3> heno: sure
<heno> (actually we should prepare these ahead of time if we want this as a regular feature)
<cr3> 1. client side queue has been completed in order to support larger submissions, such as the resulting >40K tests from: ltp, lsp and autotest.
<davmor2> heno: could be for once a fornight
<cr3> 2. various bugs fixed, such as loging in to certification.canonical.com, queue problems, third party test parsing.
<heno> ok, thanks
<heno> bdmurray: ?
<cr3> 3. created production and staging branches for the certification website. the production code is currently online and shared by a single user on the server. staging is almost there.
<cr3> 4. worked on alpha-5 testing which has been failing to netinstall because of a bug in dpkg, tried to workaround by reverting to the version from alpha-4 but that didn't work.
<bdmurray> I blogged about the needs-packaging reviewer script and set it up as a cronjob on people.ubuntu.com
<cr3> 4.1. attempted to workaround alpha-5 problems by testing daily current from today but there's now a problem with dependencies in landscape-client
<cr3> 5. currently working on reporting installation failures which are not being reporting, only successful installations are being reported
<heno> the landscape issue is currently being discussed in u-devel
<bdmurray> Additionally, I need some more tweaking of the xorg validation py-lp-b script and went through a ton of xorg related bugs and validated their configs
<bdmurray> s/need/did/
<cr3> heno: I thought there was some automated script during the build process to detect dependency issues
<davmor2> cr3: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/intrepid/
<heno> bdmurray, ogasawara: any further feedback on the package pages?
<davmor2> cr3 go to ubuntu and then latest
<bdmurray> heno: other than our own not much afaik
<ogasawara> heno: I've only seen a note mdz posted
<cr3> davmor2: only for livecd?
<heno> I might need some more pimping :)
<heno> ogasawara: any news?
<cr3> schwuk: by the way, I'll be sending an email with details from the production server once completed
<ogasawara> heno:  I'm planning on making some improvements to the pkg pages per the feature requests so I'll send some more email
<ogasawara> heno:  re roundtable - I've just mainly been continuing to follow up with the 2.6.27 feedback from the call for testing as well as Alpha5 - final decision should be made this week re 2.6.27
<davmor2> cr3: there are 2 places for alt http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/daily/current/ report.html which show up most but not all and http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntu/intrepid/ but good luck with that one it's all gibberish to me :)
<sbeattie> ogasawara: does it look like we'll stick with 2.6.27?
<heno> ogasawara: thanks - hopefully we can get some more automated HW testing in before that
<ogasawara> sbeattie: yup, it's looking like we'll go with 2.6.27 barring anything major showing up between now and the 14th
<cr3> davmor2: those reports are very interesting, thanks so much for the heads up
<heno> sbeattie: your turn :) I know you've been busy with partner QA
<heno> we are trying to tigten the raise the quality of the partner packages a bit
<sbeattie> Yeah, I've mostly been diverted with some QA on partner packages, and the process around that.
<sbeattie> Did iso testing last week as well, and in the background have been trying to write the regression tracking scripts.
<heno> sbeattie: I sent an email to the list about the regression testing
<heno> please just reply to that when you have something up
<sbeattie> heno: yep, very nice, thanks. When I get the script beaten into shape, will followup.
<heno> ok, I've expanded https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/RegressionTracking a bit
<heno> pedro_: ?
<pedro_> well I've mostly doing a lot of triage as always  and ISO testing
<pedro_> I've also working with jcastro on revamping the Bugs/* pages
<pedro_> so far: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs
<pedro_> would be nice if you can give us some feedback on that ;-)
<heno> oooh, nice!
<pedro_> I've also noticed that a couple of the QA headers page aren't too hot
<pedro_> so i did a mockup for example for the bugsquad one
<davmor2> ooohhhh pretty
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PedroVillavicencio/test
<pedro_> what do you guys think about that?
<pedro_> do you want me to revamp the QA header also? ;-)
<heno> that looks great!
<jcastro> I think it all looks awesome
 * pedro_ is a wiki guy for this week
<heno> yes please :)
<pedro_> alright will do that then, and yep that's all from me, yesterday was on leave so that's all ;-)
<sbeattie> pedro_: +1, that's great!
<pedro_> sbeattie: glad you like it!
<LaserJock> pedro_: very nice
<heno> anyone else want to report anything? stgraber, LaserJock, davmor2, jcastro ?
<pedro_> so if you think we're missing a link or something just add them to the header ;-)
<LaserJock> I've been doing a little Edubuntu QA lately and mostly working on my PhD
<jcastro> heno: we're almost done with the first cut of the +upstreamreport
<jcastro> likely next week I will ask for some feedback from bug people
<LaserJock> but this coming week I intend to work on SRU scripts
<cr3> I'd like to put my head on the line by saying that checkbox 0.2 better be in intrepid before next meeting :)
<ogasawara> schwuk: re the test reports.  let me know when you've got something, I'd be happy to review and try to get the kernel team to review as well.  or you can just send us all an email.
<davmor2> I've add this wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/CDBuildQuickTest cr3 ara may interest you.   It's just a rough but the idea is 2 quick checks will normally tell you if the daily build will install or not
<cr3> LaserJock: SRU scripts? what do those do?
<heno> cr3: we should really get these things in before FF for next cycle
<ara_> davmor2: that's so good
<cr3> davmor2: bookmarked :)
<davmor2> Thank cjwatson for the info I just put it down for us :)
<heno> davmor2: that looks great. We should parse those sources for the weather report, or so
<heno> ogasawara: ^ ?
<stgraber> heno: not much my side, Brainstorm will soon have a big update that I'm currently testing. The problem is that it requires Hardy and our server is currently on Dapper, a RT ticket has been opened.
<cr3> heno: I'll probably want that information when I probe cdimage
<ogasawara> heno:  I'll take a look
<cr3> fyi, I'm only probing archive and only have stubs for cdimage
<heno> ok, let's close the round table session, thanks everyone!
<davmor2> Wubi is nackered I confirmed today :( https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/268123
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 268123 in wubi "Intrepid: Wubi fails to mount sda1" [High,Confirmed]
<heno> We've talked about test reporting
<heno> [TOPIC] Release meeting report
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release meeting report
<heno> Most Fridays there is a release meeting on IRC
<heno> the QA team should prepare a brief status report for that
<LaserJock> cr3: generating http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/sru/todo.html and http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/sru/qa.html
<LaserJock> cr3: sbeattie and I share code
<heno> items to include: * serious bugs we've found, not yet on the milestone list
<heno> * the state of our testing infrastructure - including blocking bugs for automation, kvm, etc
<heno> these may not be blockers for the release as such, but  makes testing difficult
<heno> What else should we include?
<sbeattie> * new regressions (of some minimum threshold of importance?)
<sbeattie> * iso testing results
<davmor2> next week I'll start back on smoke testing pre-release could be fun to add those results :)
<heno> iso results> should  be a review of iso-tagged bugs and the smoke testing
<heno> yep :)
<heno> sbeattie: can you set up a wiki page structure for this?
<sbeattie> heno: sure
<heno> I would guess a root page for these guidelines/template and sub pages for individual report instances
<LaserJock> would basic bug stats relevant to release be a good idea?
<heno> LaserJock: I think so - I should we slice it though? we often don't know what release a bug is for automatically
<heno> we could use apport data and then add an 'unknown' category for unparseable bugs filed after a certain date
<LaserJock> can you use /ubuntu/<release>/+bugs lists?
<heno> I think we want to highlight bugs not already on that list
<davmor2> Would it be useful to highlight regressions in hardy too?
<heno> davmor2: from hardy you mean?
<ara__> I am back, sorry, my connection went down
<heno> the release meetings are focused on intrepid atm
<davmor2> heno: no I mean in updates to hardy
<sbeattie> LaserJock: that list is a small subset of the actual bugs contained within the development branch.
<heno> that would be more appropriate around the next hardy point release
<davmor2> okay
<heno> davmor2: see my ml post about tracking these generally though
<davmor2> seen it interesting :)
<LaserJock> well, I don't know what all they want for stats, I was just thinking they'd be interested in some :-)
<heno> regressions in updates are arguably among the worst bugs we have
<LaserJock> probably need to ask them
<heno> right. sbeattie please post a note to the list when you have a page up and we can all add ideas
<sbeattie> heno: noted.
<heno> and then we can ask for feedback at the meeting
<heno> any other business?
<heno> we have about 5 min.
<bdmurray> When I was looking at bug with xorg.conf files I thought it might be useful to tags bugs w/o a package that have an attachment as has-attachment or something.  Thoughts?
<sbeattie> bdmurray: can you just report the attachment in your no-package report?
<heno> I agree that would be tidier
<bdmurray> sbeattie: yes, I could do that instead.  I thought having them searchable in launchpad would be useful though.  It almost seems like one should be able to search for bugs w/ attachments in lp itself.
<sbeattie> bdmurray: hrm, it already lets you search for bugs with patches attached, I wonder why not attachments in general?
<bdmurray> sbeattie: indeed
<heno> file an LP bug :)
<bdmurray> that was my though too, but in the interim we could do something
<bdmurray> and I think that something would be most useful for hinting w/ bugs w/o a package
<heno> let's wrap up
<heno> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:00.
<heno> Thanks everyone!
<davmor2> Bye Everybody
<ara__> bye!
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-09-11
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 11 Sep 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 12 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Mobile Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 12 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council
<lool> Heya
<davidm> hello
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> Good day everyone
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 14:00: Ubuntu Java | 12 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team
<davidm> Time for our usual meeting, I'll start with the carried over actions, the first one I think will carry again as I've not had time to work with lool on it.
<davidm> [topic] lool+davidm+... test new version of Ekiga (2.9)
<MootBot> New Topic:  lool+davidm+... test new version of Ekiga (2.9)
<davidm> lool, have you had any time to play with your setup?
<lool> I sent my test results of my own calls to misc echo services to the list
<lool> Basically, the snapshots are very broken for me for a long list of reasons
<lool> The current version less so, but still many issues
<davidm> Ah, OK is that from the Crown Beach system?
<lool> No, just from my main intrepid desktop to start with
<lool> I would have liked testing intrepid/lpia, but given I don't master ekiga on my desktop as a start, i didn't feel like adding another level
<lool> Also ekiga isn't built for lpia on ekiga.net AFAIK
<davidm> OK, given you are still having  issues, with the desktop do we need to carry this over again:?
<lool> And because I need to flip port redirections on my router when switching machines, it would also be painful to test on CB (plus it's not intrepid)
<lool> I don't know; I think I've raised many issues with the snapshots some warranting fixing before anybody considers using them
<lool> I don't think we should consider ekiga snapshots for mobile, so I think we don't need to track them further here
<davidm> OK, then I'll leave it lay for now.
<davidm> [topic] cgregan will try to test ThunderBird on 800x480 screen size and report findings.
<MootBot> New Topic:  cgregan will try to test ThunderBird on 800x480 screen size and report findings.
<lool> I'll continue playing with ekiga on my own, hopefully setting up calls with coworkers
<davidm> lool, sounds good
<cgregan> Completed that....TB looked just fine on 800x400
 * lool found it hard to configure ekiga and can only imagine that most people don't know how to run tshark or how to configure their router when they get the "network settings need to be set manually" popup
<cgregan> With a few changes in dialog sizes and some main screen config we would have a good replacement for Claws.
<davidm> good enough, sounds very good. Thanks for the test and the report.
<cgregan> It would also ad great integration with Firefox and Sunbird if we wanted to add them
<davidm> [topic] rollcall
<MootBot> New Topic:  rollcall
 * lool 1
<davidm> ogra, persia, amitk lool: moblie IRC meeting
 * ogra is here
 * cgregan 1
 * lool thought people would count themselves by incrementing the int
<lool> Perhaps I should have started at zero thouhg
<davidm> Just getting in practice for future meetings we will start out with it. thanks.
<davidm> :-)
 * cgregan blames it on 8am EST
<davidm> Ha, that is as good a reason as any
<davidm> OK next topic
<davidm> [topic] choice of mail client modest versus thunderbird
<MootBot> New Topic:  choice of mail client modest versus thunderbird
<cgregan> I have not had time to evaluate modest against TB
<lool> I did not have time to improve modest either
<cgregan> Just TB against claws
<lool> please carry on
<davidm> will do
<StevenK> Thunderbird is currently seeded
<persia> If it's TB against claws, let's keep TB.
<lool> My list of "should have happened before FF" things is going down, so hopefully more time soon
<lool> persia: It's not, it's "modest against TB", see topic
<davidm> [action] choice of mail client modest versus thunderbird (CO)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  choice of mail client modest versus thunderbird (CO)
<davidm> [topic] ogra to continue to chase support of Q1 touchscreen
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to continue to chase support of Q1 touchscreen
<persia> lool: Sure, but there's no modest today :)
<persia> (and hardware hotkeys)
<lool> persia: There's a modest, but it's plagged by bugs
<lool> *plagued
<davidm> I suspect we may end up with TB by default
<ogra> which isnt necessarily a bad thing
<lool> Certainly in the mobile seed at least
<davidm> ogra, any progress on the Q1 touchscreen?
 * cgregan celebrated the idea of being able to filter out spam email at the cafe on his crownbeach! :-)
<lool> haha
<persia> cgregan: You carred a crownbaach to a cafe?
<cgregan> Sure.....it's a MID right?
<lool> You need a large backpack and a UPS
<ogra> davidm, pasting from my status report:
<ogra> * evtouch: slow progress locally, not added to the evtouch package yet, callout script seems to work as expected, calibration tool not fixed/patched to work with the new setup yet
<ogra> we should probably put the reports to the start
<ogra> so actions that are covered dont have to be pasted twice
<davidm> I'll be sending them around but perhaps we need a better way
<ogra> well, just do the as first thing in the meeting
<ogra> instead of the end
 * lool +1
<davidm> OK next topic
<davidm> [topic] status
<MootBot> New Topic:  status
<lool> amitk is busy and wont report this week
<davidm> Yea I had a feeling
<davidm> OK then
<davidm> ChrisGregan - QA
<cgregan> Kicking a few small shiny devices around the room for USG this week
<cgregan> Grabbed the UME Daily
<cgregan> Loading on Q1 today
<cgregan> No testing...just reference for cases
<cgregan> hope to complete cases this week with help from persia....ahem.....spec. :-)
<persia> Err, right.
<davidm> cgregan, persia do we need an action here?
<persia> Yeah.  I'll take an action.
 * persia to write a spec for an installer
<davidm> [action] persia to write a spec for an installer
<MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to write a spec for an installer
<davidm> Thanks
<cgregan> that's it for me
<cgregan> Oh
<cgregan> one more thing
<cgregan> Got an offer on my house in MD
<cgregan> :-)
<davidm> cgregan, cool, hope it was a good one.
<cgregan> good enough! ;-)
<davidm> StevenK Status?
<lool> cgregan: Oh good news
<cgregan> yes!
<StevenK> davidm: Dealing with images, helping persia
<StevenK> Sorting out what is showing up that shouldn't be, and removing it
<StevenK> Uploaded livecd-rootfs for installer goodness, but will need another upload when I get my metapackage
<davidm> StevenK, any blockers currently?
<davidm> StevenK, the kernel metapackage is happening
<StevenK> davidm: No blockers
<davidm> StevenK, good, the metapackage might be a little slower then I had hoped, amitk is "busy"
<davidm> status persia
<persia> Working on the installer, helping StevenK, testing live images, testing the image-editing script.
<lool> What's image editing script?
<StevenK> The script that ogra wrote
<lool> It repacks a squashfs?
<StevenK> It's on the wiki
<persia> Customisation of the questions asked in the installer to force things (e.g. username, password) is currently blocked by bug #268593
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 268593 in ubiquity "installer fails with partman error code 10" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/268593
<ogra> lool, the one i'm just bzr'ing to push to the new script branch
<persia> I believe we have the last required patches to livecd-rootfs and the d-i components merged, but am still tracking issues.
<ogra> lool, yes, it spawns a shell inside the squashfs, repacks and copies it into the .img
<lool> Ok; I personally have scripts to manage casper-rw overlays and browse / change loop mounts, but it wont work for squashfs obviously
<lool> ogra: Ok, I found it easier here to use a casper overlay
<lool> But that's interesting
<ogra> it uses an overlay
<ogra> but you dont need to boot the image
<persia> lool: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
<lool> So it doesn't repack?
<ogra> i'll push it after the meeting
<persia> It does repack.
<ogra> it resquashes and cp's the .squashfs into the .img afterwards
<davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
<lool> Ok; I use an overlay at runtime too, not just for modification
<persia> That's a bit of a different use case.
<lool> It's cheaper
<lool> Anyway, I'll contribute my own scripts as well soon enough
<lool> Just two different things
<persia> Right, and both are useful, depending on what one is doing.
<ogra> right
<lool> right
<lool> davidm: right?
<davidm> Sounds like it to me
<davidm> so right
<persia> davidm: Did you get a chance to test the script?
<davidm> persia, no, I've just tested the images so far.
<davidm> persia, who is working on the blocking bug?
<lool> persia: Can't you just include the installer despite it failing at this point?
<lool> So that we only have to push $package-to-fix when a fix is available
<StevenK> We have
<persia> davidm: cjwatson mentioned it to me.  It's blocking customisation, but not installation.  The main things that can go wrong currently are 1) the user can change the username (which means X doesn't work), and a password can be set (making admin hard on a device with no keyboard).
<StevenK> ubiquity is in $LIVELIST, so the next image will include it
<lool> g
<persia> lool: Yes, I'm including the preseed, but I'll not have ubiquity run in automatic mode until it works.
<davidm> persia, understood, so we are not blocked from using it now.
<davidm> but mis use will break  our installs
<ogra> use will
<persia> davidm: No, only blocked on having the final state that we'll show users, as it will ask a couple questions that would otherwise be hidden.
<davidm> OK thanks
<davidm> persia, any other items in your status?
<persia> davidm: Nope.
<davidm> lool, status?
<lool> Yup
<lool> I've been helping around fighting misc issues in the images and pushing misc things for intrepid; misc non community/public work kept me occupied as well; next week I plan working on elisa and cheese -- but cheese was just uploaded (gst still broken for gspca though) -- and mobile browser/xul tasks
<lool> no particular blocker
<davidm> Good
<davidm> lool, anything else?
<lool> nope
<davidm> status ogra ?
<ogra> * netbook apps are all four in the archive now, included maximus and netbook-launcher into the ubuntu-mobile seed/metapackage
<ogra> * there are massive issues with netbook-launcher i'm trying to fix now, sizes and positions are all hardcoded so i.e. using a 48px panel as ubuntu-mobile does for touchscreen use requires patching (which i'm currently working on)
<ogra> * massive problems with netbook-launcher and clutter 0.8 font handling (swallows letters all the time), i'm trying to identify whats wrong but am slightly lost as i'm not a clutter dev
<ogra> * evtouch: slow progress locally, not added to the evtouch package yet, callout script seems to work as expected, calibration tool not fixed/patched to work with the new setup yet
<ogra> * started looking into hardy langpack updates
<ogra> * set up a bzr branch to carry all our various scripts, owned by ubuntu-mobile-dev feel free to go wild and commit your hacks and scripts at:
<ogra> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile-dev/ubuntu-mobile/mobile-scripts :)
<ogra> * cmpc packages (cheese/gstreamer) are source and binary NEWed and were accepted for -proposed by the sru team waiting for test feedback ... (everyone: gstreamer regression tests of hard-proposed packages on normal ubuntu desktops would be appreciated)
<ogra> * took new task for next week to look at hotkey support for Q1 as well
<ogra> * sorting various smaller edubuntu and ltsp duties (trying to calm huge complaint thread on edubuntu-users ML because it doesnt get much developer attention anymore) ...
<davidm> ogra, wow you were just waiting for me ;-)
<ogra> no further blockers ...
<davidm> Thanks
<ogra> yeah, i'm lazy :)
<ogra> oh, any my car issues are sorted :)
<davidm> ogra, glad to hear that, in the Dallas TX area in the US you have to have a car or you are stuck.
<davidm> I think Germany is a little different but still nice.
<ogra> i didnt have one for 2 years
<ogra> and didnt really miss it
<ogra> but the one i got offered only has 10000miles (16000km) on the counter and was so cheap i couldnt say no
<ogra> (1800â¬)
<davidm> Sweet
<davidm> OK I have two activity reports already, and I'm just waiting for the rest of them to arrive and I'll post them to the list.
<davidm> I'd like  to invite the rest of the community if they would like their status posted to send me an activity report and I'll include it into the report that is sent out.
<davidm> Of course you don't have to wait for us but you are welcome to have me merge it if you like
<davidm> Option is there for anyone that wants it.
 * ogra would find it massively cool to see what the community does/works on
<davidm> OK the next topic was choice of mail client but we don't have enough info I think so I'll carry it
<StevenK> I thought we covered that
 * ogra has TB on the ubuntu-mobile seed since it exists 
<davidm> StevenK, we sort of did but it was somehow in twice.
<StevenK> Thunderbird is in -mid, too
<ogra> StevenK, oh, i forgot we need to talk about patches to livecd-rootfs to build ubuntu-mobile images
<davidm> my bad likely, I edit that page right after this meeting and it's still quite early here.
<persia> We're currently using Thunderbird: if we get modest in shape before e.g. UI freeze, let's reconsider.
<ogra> and to your script
<ogra> StevenK, trivial changes likely
<davidm> So floor is open
<StevenK> ogra: Yup. We'll want to talk to infinity too, since it will trigger script changes.
<ogra> yep
<ogra> but i imagine its less than 10 lines
<StevenK> Which arch do you want it on?
<lool> I'd like to mention maemo summit and associated matters
<lool> Next week, davidm and myself are flying to Berlin; ogra are you coming?
<davidm> lool, good idea
<lool> From the 16th to the 21st, I'll be away from home
<davidm> ogra, is coming out too
<ogra> lool, i do :) have to sort out stuff with my friends and havent registered yet, but i want to test the car ;)
<lool> It might make it challenging to lead the IRC meeting, so someone please step up if davidm and I aren't around
<lool> (and while I'm it, on a more personal note: I wont call coworkers either as I usually do on Tuesdays)
 * persia volunteers to chair
<davidm> I'll be away from the 15th through the 23rd so some of my weekly calls are going to be challenging too.
<StevenK> No fair calling while you're on a plane
<lool> If you need anything urgent/important, try to mention it before monday to leave me some time to look at it before flying
<davidm> StevenK, exactly, planes are hard
<ogra> there are some with WLAN ... you could do VOIP :)
<ogra> choppy though i bet
<lool> Sure, I'm just not sure of what will happen at that time so it might be more relevant to attend $thing than to give $call
<davidm> I use VOIP a lot from the road, if I have good enough network it's fine
<ogra> davidm, well, its like 2M for the whole plane ...
<lool> (I don't think it's a matter of finding phone/voip coverage, just that the point is to attend OSIM and maemo summit :-)
<ogra> even IRC is hard, i tried it once on a lufthansa flight
<davidm> Very true, I'm working the show floor at OSiM World so I should meet some interesting people.
<davidm> :-)
<davidm> 10 minute warning
<lool> If you people want us to bring up particular topics related to Ubuntu MID or Mobile during these events, shoot an email with the Q
<davidm> but I think we have covered everything
<lool> We'll report on these when coming back naturally
<davidm> Yes please.
<davidm> Let us know.
<lool> Happy to close meeting now
<lool> My baby rings
<davidm> Ok so if there is nothing else I'll close the meeting so going once ..................................................................................................
<lool> davidm: Thanks for chairing
<davidm> glad to do so.
<davidm> close the meeting so going twice .......................................
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:54.
<seb128> hi
<pitti> hello everyone
<MacSlow> hey seb128 , pitti
 * heno waves
<pedro_> hello!
<pitti> mvo, mpt, Riddell, tedg: there?
<tedg> Good morning ya'll (/me is trying to learn Texan)
<pitti> tedg: howdy!
<MacSlow> hi tedg
<pitti> meeting prep and activity: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-09-11
<mpt> hello
<Riddell> hi
<pitti> how's the desktop team, alright?
<mvo> hello!
<MacSlow> hey Riddell, mvo
<Riddell> I'm great
<MacSlow> pitti, we grew a bit recently :)
<pitti> MacSlow: oh?
<Riddell> I'm also in Edinburgh, yay
<pitti> Riddell: but that didn't change recently, did it? :-)
<mvo> MacSlow: you became taller?
<MacSlow> pitti, well the "experience" part of the team :)
<pitti> ah, indeed
<MacSlow> mvo, I gave up all hope regarding that :)
<pitti> MacSlow: so ATM you're half/half desktop/experience?
<Riddell> pitti: yes, but if you never noticed any different then that's all good :)
<pitti> so, let's start with the outstanding actions
<pitti> mvo to talk to QA about the possibility of a "package-failures" component and triaging it.
<pitti> TBH I don't quite like that approach, but let's see what came out of it
<pitti> mvo?
<Riddell> what does component mean here?
<pitti> Riddell: I think "LP project"
<mvo> gar
<mvo> still not done :(
<mvo> I was busy with meeting the UI freeze
<pitti> so instead of having package inst failures reported against the particular package, it'd go to a seaparate project, like "hardy-backports"
<mvo> yes, that was the idea
<pitti> mvo: are you still convinced that this is a viable and sane option?
<pitti> if so, maybe you can do it this week, and we'll talk about it at the next meeting?
<mvo> I never really was, but there were some concerns that the reports are not that useful
<mvo> and clutter the buglist
<mvo> I will do that, sorry for being so late about it again
<pitti> OTOH few, if any people would actually read those mails, no?
<mpt> That looks like a job for a tag
<pitti> we shuold clean up the messy input rather (better filtering, better reports, audo-dupes, etc.)
<heno> QA would generally support getting bugs divided up into groups, there may be other ways though
<pitti> mpt: it already has, apport-package
<seb128> my concern is not mails
<seb128> I work on bug lists
<pitti> mails are not an issue
<seb128> and that clutters the list
<pitti> the bugs are private
<pitti> or, could be
<mvo> I could prefer better filtering
<seb128> pitti: upgrade issues are not private
<seb128> and private bugs clutter the lists too :-p
<cjwatson> personally my main problem is that I've rarely seen one of the automatic package-failure bugs that I can ever actually figure out; I always have to go to mvo for help
<mpt> mvo, so you need the ability to subscribe to a tag? or what?
<pitti> right, that's what I mean, they often are attached to the wrong package, etc.
<cjwatson> it would help if the dpkg output were much more clearly extracted, and there often seem to be problems with them being filed on the wrong packages
<seb128> my experience is that 90% of those are either mis-assigned or local corruption issues
<mvo> mpt: that would be useful, yes
<mpt> mvo, anything else?
<pitti> so instead of shoving useless reports away to a dumpign ground project, we should rather improve them in the first place IMHO
<mvo> seb128: I posted some data about that to ubuntu-desktop some weeks ago
<seb128> improving bug reports is always a good idea no discussion there
<mvo> I think its not 90%, but its cleary too much that is not useful
<seb128> mvo: no you didn't
<mvo> but for your specific set of packages its probably worse
<mvo> seb128: no?
<pitti> I saw the post
<seb128> mvo: the only mail you sent to ubuntu-desktop this year is about sandbox, or I delete it by mistake or something
<mvo> cjwatson: better extraction of the failure in the log is definitely a good point
<mvo> seb128: hm, let me look for the message id, maybe is was ubuntu-devel?
<pitti> anyway, I think the current reports deserve a compete overhaul in order to be machine and human parseable
<seb128> mvo: arg sorry, looked on the wron box
<pitti> mvo, seb128: let's find the mail after the meeting and link it to the report page
<pitti> mvo: so again, if you think it would be a good interim solution, please go ahead and talk to the QA team for their input
<mvo> I will, thanks
<pitti> otherwise discard it, and the action item, and we'll concentrate on improving the reports (which we shuold do anyway, FWIW)
<pitti> ok, other outstanding action item: seb128 to update whiteboard of intrepid-menus-review and better-login-speed for remaining todos
<mvo> improve the reports++
<seb128> pitti: I did update those
<pitti> seb128: ah, merci
<pitti> "mvo: do I need a formal feature freeze expection for compiz or is there an expection like for gnome? a release is prepared currently and it would be nice to give them up-to-date packages for better testing exposure"
<pitti> s/expection/exception/, I take it
<mvo> yes
<mvo> sorry for the typo
<pitti> traditionally we only gave a blanket exception for official GNOME components
<seb128> neither of those are complete, but the specs are not really precise and have quite some upstream points which require work and I'm already streching over my limit only keeping GNOME uptodate and in shape so I didn't manage to work on those
<pitti> so in this case I don't think we should handle it as implicitly granted without further consent by TB or RM
<seb128> mvo: the freeze exception for GNOME is mainly because they have similar freeze
<seb128> ie now they are feature, UI, string, API, ABI, etc frozen
<mvo> ok, I will prepare a update in my PPA and ask the RM
<pitti> mvo: I'd prefer handling this as a normal FFE request; of course it will be considered appropriately, given how important it is for us
<kwwii> better late than never :-)
<pitti> seb128: right, understood; it is just good to have an up to date summary of the status
<pitti> hey kwwii
<mvo> seb128: right, I kow that. compiz has much less of a formal process for this, but they are have a synced release cycle with us (and fedora)
<pitti> mvo: on that matter, when will compiz get enabled by default again?
<MacSlow> hi kwwii
<mvo> I certainly hope so :)
<pitti> is it a matter of breage with the new GNOME session?
<pitti> I'm interested in why it currently isn't
<mvo> gnome-session was giving us some trouble here
<seb128> pitti: it should already be at the moment
<seb128> gnome-wm is the default in gnome-session since 2.23.90
<pitti> hm, not here (intel GMA945)
<seb128> let's take that on #ubuntu-desktop after meeting
<seb128> that's a bug
<pitti> ok, let's
<pitti> so the state is that "it should work again like in hardy" now?
<pitti> "Riddell: how to organise FOSSCamp and UDS sponsorships"
<seb128> pitti: compiz? yes
<pitti> I can't personally tell, Keybuk mainly did the preps; unless cjwatson can help out here?
<Riddell> we have this interesting new system jono announced, if we want people to come do they really have to find something on brainstorm to do?
<pitti> Riddell: the rough plan that I know is that we stop proposing guests, but they have to actively apply themselves in order to get sponsored
<pitti> I think jono blogged about it
<Riddell> and I've not heard anything about FOSSCamp
<Riddell> if it needs keybuk to explain it, I hope he gets well soon, deadline isn't too far away :)
<Riddell> I hope he gets well soon anyway of course
<heno> if there are people you think should be there you can help them throough that process, including finding some brainstorm topics and read their application before they post it
<pitti> Riddell: well, I'd expect it to be a little less rigid; if their application points out some strong things which they'd like to work on, I could imagine that this is sufficient
<mpt> http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1278
<heno> we wanted applicants to associate themselves with specs/projects and not just turn up to listen
<Riddell> the problem with brainstorm is it only covers a certain type of contribution, we have some great KDE main modules packaging going on in the kubuntu community and I'd like some of those people there, but it's not a brainstorm idea
<pitti> heno: right, but e. g. I know people I'd really like to come which have done an awesome amount of work, but nevertheless not associated to brainstorm; rather to specs; I don't think we should impose too much red tape on them
<pitti> so "specs/projects" should be a little wider than just "brainstorm"; blueprints should e. g. count as well
<heno> Riddell: it's more important that they come to UDS with an idea of what they want to tyalk about than that it's already proposed in brainstorm
<heno> pitti: agreed
<cjwatson> brainstorm is the default and for many people the easiest, but if people turn up with other specific proposals and they're any good, then that will likely be fine too
<pitti> no user will ever request somethign like "let's repackage the nvidia driver with dkms", nevertheless it's important and beneficial to do so
<pitti> right
<cjwatson> the main point is just to make sure that every sponsored attendee is motivated to achieve something specific
<cjwatson> more than just "hey, they came last time and were kind of fun"
<pitti> and their application should clearly point out what they're going to work on
<cjwatson> yes
<pitti> of course there will always be people which *we* would like to come
<pitti> and invite
<pitti> I guess for those we'll have a slightly different process as well
<Riddell> and FOSSCamp?
<pitti> I quickly talked about this with Scott, and he agreed, but we didn't talk about details
<Riddell> jcastro?
<Riddell> well, I can ask him when he appears
<kwwii> I received an inviation to attend fosscamp from jcastro
<Riddell> but surely facebook isn't the only way its being organised :)
<pitti> so, I think we should bring this up again when Scott returns
<Riddell> yep, move on
<pitti> Riddell: any other questions which we could discuss/answer right now?
<pitti> ok
<pitti> "Riddell: 8.04 to 9.04 as an upgrade path?"
<pitti> any particular reason for that?
<Riddell> intrepid is a big step for Kubuntu users as an upgrade
<Riddell> same as Ubuntu..
<Riddell> but ubuntu is LTS so it won't prompt for upgraade until the next LTS
<pitti> for people who didn't install the kde 4 variant in hardy, I guess
<Riddell> yes
<Riddell> we can't do that since we're not LTS, so we had the idea it might make sense to prompt for upgrade not this release but next
<Riddell> which would mean supporting a new upgrade path 8.04 -> 9.04
<Riddell> that might well be too much work
<Riddell> and we should just put big warning in the pre-upgrade release notes
<Riddell> but if it's not too much work, would it be sensible?
<pitti> mvo: oh, u-m doesn't even offer a 8.04 -> 8.10 upgrade? I thought it just wouldn't create a notification bubble
<mvo> I guess most of the work is the additional testing for 8.04->9.04
<mvo> pitti: its a configuration option in gnome-software-properties
<heno> I think we could take on that testing
<mvo> by default it will not offer the upgrade in update-manager
<pitti> Riddell: in general I believe it is not significantly more work to support 8.04 -> 9.04 than to properly support 8.04 -> 8.10 -> 9.04
<mvo> only if you click on "prompt for all upgrades"
<heno> by that time we should have better automation there
<pitti> Riddell: if this is known from day 1 in 9.04, then we can be careful to not drop any preinsts etc.
<pitti> which we can't do anyway, since we need to support 8.04 -> 10.04 (LTS -> LTS)
<Riddell> right
<pitti> mvo: ok, thanks
<pitti> Riddell: so, IOW, if 8.04->9.04 won't work, then we'll have even more work with the next LTS upgrade
<pitti> so we can just support it right away
<Riddell> groovy
<pitti> Riddell, mvo: would it be possible and sensible to offer this differently in the gtk and kde UIs?
<mvo> yes and yes
<pitti> I don't think that ubuntu 9.04 will be special "enough" in order to change the current scheme
<pitti> but I do see the purpose for KDE 3 -> 4
<cjwatson> we can't go dropping upgrade compatibility in 9.04 anyway, since otherwise we'll just have to put it back in for 10.04
<mvo> I agree
<pitti> Riddell: do you *actually* want 9.04, or wouldn't it be much more desirable to offer upgrade to 8.10?
<pitti> cjwatson: exactly
<cjwatson> oh, pitti already said that, jinx
<pitti> cjwatson: I like violent agreement :)
<Riddell> pitti: I think we'd like people to activly want to upgrade to 8.10, so people can but they should have an idea that it'll be a big change
<Riddell> which is what happens on the ubuntu side as I say
<pitti> Riddell: or do you think 4.1 is still not mature enough to offer it to KDE 3 Hardy users?
<pitti> Riddell: the button will show the release notes, so indeed it should be highlighted there
<pitti> Riddell: so my Q is still why we should only offer it for 9.04 and not for 8.04 (KDE 4.1 is said to have become really stable and good, after all? or do you disagree?)
<Riddell> pitti: there's still a lot of support for keeping KDE 3 on users desktops and I don't think that class of user should be pushed into KDE 4 yet
<pitti> Riddell: alright
<pitti> so, fine with me personally, anyone else have objections?
<Riddell> I think it's stable and good but maybe not really stable and good :)  also the upgrade isn't very well tested yet
<jcastro> Riddell: you're not the first person asking about KDE/brainstorm, I'll have an answer for you shortly.
<seele> jcastro: +1 from me, i already complained to the source about it
<pitti> ok
<Riddell> I'll talk more with the Kubuntu team and we'll work out just what we want and how to do it
<pitti> "seb128: the new gnome-session dialog is available in intrepid, do we want to use this one?"
<Riddell> (for the upgrade question)
<pitti> Riddell: sounds good; but in general your proposal sounds sane IMHO
<pitti> seb128: "this one" -> as provided by upstream, which is currently in intrepid
<seb128> right
<pitti> as opposed to "something similar to hardy"?
<mvo> Riddell: lets work out a plan how to do it in update-manager after the meeting (should be striaghtward)
<pitti> mpt: WDYT about the current one?
<seb128> pitti: well, that's basically "what do we do for intrepid"
<vuntz> pitti: (this new dialog is currently blocked in a bug upstream, fwiw)
<seb128> pitti: should we escalade that to mdz?
<pitti> personally I really like the split between logging of and shutting down the computer, since they are pretty unrelated to each other, and (2) providing all in the same dialog makes it too big
<seb128> vuntz: I distro patched it
<mpt> pitti, the current one in Intrepid? It's not pleasant
<mpt> It's good that it explains each option
<vuntz> seb128: I know, just wanted to make things clear. Sorry for spying :-)
<seb128> mpt: did you find the hardy one pleasant?
<pitti> mpt: the workflow, or the UI, or both?
<mpt> seb128, no :-)
<pitti> vuntz: good to have you here
<seb128> mpt: do you want to go back to the hardy one?
 * seb128 hugs vuntz
<mpt> but the missing borders and the inconsistently-sized icons are weird
<seb128> mpt: that's fixable
<mpt> seb128, if those two bugs are fixable today, then okay, otherwise I think the Hardy one would be better
<seb128> mpt: using the hardy one means rewritting it, the code which was patched doesn't exist in intrepid
<vuntz> mpt: I'd love a list of things to fix in this dialog. FWIW, calum prefers to stay with a standard dialog (what is currently in upstream).
<pitti> mpt: do you like the split between logging out/switchign users, and poweroff/reboot/suspend/hibernate? (I do)
<mpt> Flow-wise they're both meh :-)
<seb128> mpt: so as long as we rewritte something we can as well write something we want
<seb128> mpt: can you make a review of the issues in the new dialog? would make vuntz happy too apparently ;-)
<heno> I also like the separation FWIW
<pitti> can we make this an action item offline?
<mpt> seb128, what we want is in the ExitStrategy spec, but that requires several person-months of work probably.
<pitti> mpt to review the current shutdown/logout dialog and give some recommendations/fixes to upstream and LP bugs
<pitti> mpt: ^ would that be ok for you?
<mpt> ok
<seb128> if we keep the split we also need to decide what to do about the icon in the corner
<seb128> not sure if it still makes sense when half of the options are listed
<mdz> seb128: indeed
<mpt> The icon in the corner is being replaced by the fusa-applet afaik
<mpt> tedg?
<pitti> ++ for that
<seb128> ok, so:
<seb128> - replace the icon by fusa
<seb128> - mpt lists things to change in the current dialog for intrepid
<pitti> ack
<pitti> mpt ^ ok for you as well?
<seb128> mpt: this spec is indeed not intrepid material
<mpt> yep
<pitti> good, let's go on with our full schedule for today
<pitti> "seb128: Seb: gnome-keyring has a configure option to disable the ACL dialogs "
<pitti> sorry, double-seb
<pitti> seb128: can you please explain this a little further?
<tedg> You can never have too many seb's.
 * mpt thinks doubling seb would be an excellent idea
<seb128> pitti: I gave the bug number which has details
<pitti> that's pretty damn true!
 * mvo hugs seb256
<seb128> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=533493
<ubottu> Gnome bug 533493 in general "patch to disable allow/deny dialogs" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<ogra> seb128, note that NCommander said he would look at porting the hardy dialog while you were on holiday
<seb128> that's to disable the ""Allow program X to access keyring Y"
<ogra> seb128, makes probably sense to notify him to stop that and not waste time if we dont go back
<seb128> ogra: NCommander is doing way to many things ;-)
<pitti> seb128: the whitelist solution?
<seb128> ogra: will talk to him
<pitti> seb128: completely disabling this question sounds a bit too much to me
<pitti> i. e. the bug is that the dialog appears with network-manager, not that it appears in situation where keyring access is in fact unexpected?
<mpt> so it should be asked once per program per computer, rather than once per program per session
<seb128> pitti: the dialog are the "do you allow this application to access to the gnome-keyring"
<seb128> pitti: not the one asking for a password
<pitti> yeah, I know
<seb128> ie if you try going on a sftp share in nautilus
<seb128> you will gedit "gedit tries to acces to gnome-keyring" when opening a document
<pitti> QUESTION: is everyone ok with extending the meeting today? or does anyone need to leave in 15 minutes?
 * Riddelll in no rush
<seb128> that might be rather a list discussion
<pitti> (I don't feel like cutting discussions just because we're out of time)
<seb128> I put it there because I read about the option and fedora is using and I thought we should maybe consider it
<pitti> seb128: but in fact we do expect n-m and pidgin to access the keyring, and they shuold be allowed without any question IMHO; that would make the dialog more useful
<tedg> pitti: There may be another meeting though -- I think the Java guys are here.
<seb128> let's move that to #ubuntu-desktop after meeting with interested people
<ogra> pitti, the java meeting is at 14:00 UTC
<pitti> ok
<pitti> let's go on then
<pitti> "seb128: what is exactly the policy about adding changes to desktop packages? gnome-control-center starts having quite some distribution changes for example, shouldn't those be sent upstream before being added to ubuntu?"
<seb128> I guess we should keep this one for when scott will be back rather
<pitti> our general policy nowadays should be to always forward patches upstream as well, including references to discussions and sketches, etc.
<pitti> we have all been guilty of applying ubuntu-only patches which we are sitting on now, but we should stop doing that
<seb128> the tendency at the moment is to do distro change first and then forward or discuss that afterward as time permit
<pitti> we shouldn't go as far as blocking on upstream *accepting* our patches, but they should be reported and discussed with them
<seb128> which often means people don't because they have too much to do
<seb128> righ
<seb128> right
<pitti> seb128: that shuold be done at the same time
<seb128> because the other way around we just add maintainship workload on the ubuntu side
<pitti> seb128: so if there are heavy patches, please prod their authors to submit them upstream and discuss it with them
<pitti> seb128: and otherwise, ask them to update them to a new upstream version
<seb128> alright
<pitti> seb128: but I don't think we can entirely get rid of carrying such patches
<pitti> there are changes which originate in Ubuntu which we wnat in the next release
<pitti> so we have to carry that pain to a certain degree
<pitti> but we shuoldn't carry it indefinitely
<ogra> .oO( we could just take over upstream)
 * ogra hides
<pitti> seb128: e. g. the keyboard dialog changes you referenced; if that change is reported upstream, and they didn't outright say "no, that sucks", we shuold care about the patch for a while
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Java Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team
<pitti> do you all think that's a reasonable compromise?
<seb128> pitti: the change is not reported upstream yet but mvo said he will do that
<pitti> action: mvo to submit the gnome-control-center changes upstream
<seb128> pitti: yes, as long as people doing changes take discussions upstream too rather than just dropping that on the plate of people who maintain those packages
<mvo> *cough*
<seb128> nothings against mvo there
<mvo> I did before and the feedback was not that great, but I will try again
 * seb128 hugs mvo
<pitti> I spent the entire weekend with cleaning up old cups patches, but it's so much better now :)
<seb128> that was just this week example ;-)
<pitti> yeah, but it was a pretty good one
<pitti> since I know how much glade patches suck
<pitti> but well, no short-term way around them
<pitti> ok, let's skip the sponsoring review this week; please everyone catch up on it
<pitti> release status: I don't think I personally have something that needs discussion with the entire team
<pitti> I'd like to prod some of you later today about some spec status, to get an update for tomorrow's release meeting
<pitti> so, AOB?
<seb128> pitti: see we are on time ;-)
 * pitti apologizes for his rather aggressive meeting driving today; BTW, feedback about the general meeting format or discussion length/depth appreciated
<pitti> oh, and one note
<pitti> Scott, Matt, and I are in Portland next week, Linux Plumber's conference
<mvo> have fun there
<pitti> so if you want to have a team meeting, please just do an ad-hoc one and send notes to u-desktop@, or we just skip it
<pitti> would everyone agree to skipping it and putting urgent discussions to u-desktop@?
<seb128> pitti: thanks for leading the meeting ;-)
<pitti> seb128: my pleasure
<seb128> pitti: I'm fine skipping next week meeting and discussing any issue on the list
<mpt> thanks pitti
<mvo> thanks
 * mvo rushes off
<MacSlow> so long
<pitti> ok, have a good day everyone, thanks all
<pitti> rock on, desktoppers
<pitti> pedro_, cjwatson1, heno: thanks for joining
<kwwii> have fun
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 17:00: QA Team
<persia> Who's here for the Java meeting?
<Koon> o/
<persia> Hrm.  We're short today.
<Riddelll> drat, no volunteers to package jambi or nepomuk for me then :)
<persia> Let's give it 5 minutes.  I know slytherin might not be able to make it.
<persia> Riddell: Actually, there's been a long-outstanding question in the team that you might be able to answer.
<persia> Currently, there are "metal" and "gtk" bindings for some of the Java widgets, but there aren't any QT bindings.  Do you know of anyone who might like to work on that?
<persia> OK.  5 minutes up.
<persia> Koon, do you have anything special to announce, or shall we postpone this meeting until next week?
<Koon> persia: yes I have
<Koon> persia: please have a look at the "KISS" design in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec
<Riddelll> persia: bindings?  or theme?
<Koon> just to know if it sounds possible to you (read: policy-compatible)
<Koon> persia: I've been struggling so much with maven-JPP that I found there might just be a very simple solution to our problem
<Koon> it's so simple that I probably missed something, and wanted to discuss the design with the rest of the team
<Koon> which means, you.
<persia> Riddell: Basically a final solution to bug #99445.  Someone from Sun called the required code "QT peers", but I'm not sure where it fits on the theme/bindings continuum
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 99445 in sun-java6 "Java 6 and KDE integration" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/99445
<persia> Koon: That looks like a nice clean hack to get it working now.
<Koon> I tested that maven doesn't mind following links
<persia> It's a bit of extra work for the packager of any maven-requiring package, but it means *lots* less infrastructural effort.
<Koon> from a quick poc it seems to be working, I'll do a more complete when I'll have some free time
<persia> It's policy compliant as long as there really aren't any .jar files left over in debian/ at the end, and it's just maven junk.
<Riddell> persia: reads like a theming issue, would be fiddly to do
<Koon> persia: it's also far easier to debug
<persia> It would probably be good to get a common script together and put it in maven so packages build-depending on maven could just include the makefile snippet in rules, and add a config file to create the links.
<Koon> persia: sure
<persia> Riddell: OK.  Do you think it's worth pushing out as a call for work to be done, or do you think most Kubuntu users will be happy with metal?
<Koon> slytherin: yay
<persia> slytherin: You made it!
<persia> We're just talking about KDE peers and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec
<slytherin> Koon: I am going to eb silent listener mostly
<persia> s/KDE/QT/
<Koon> slytherin: when you'll have more time, please have a look at the "KISS solution" in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec
<Riddell> persia: you can try, but I suspect it's sufficiently tricky and sufficiently low priority that nobody would be interested
<Koon> slytherin: just comment in the wikipage directly
<persia> Riddell: OK.  That's exactly the sort of feedback I sought: lack of interest means I'll drop it from my list of things that we might do.  If there's a couple killer apps, maybe someone will get interested.
<persia> Riddell: Thanks for your advice.
<Riddell> right
<Koon> persia: it's true it's more work for the packager. But he is the one with the energy to make it succeed. Waiting for some hypothetic infrastructure work before starting any maven packaging probably won't fly
<persia> Koon: I think you're right.  I like this idea a lot.
<persia> Once we have a working PoC for a package, we ought take it to Debian to increase the pool of packagers.
<Koon> persia: the problem for a complete POC is the missing build deps
<Koon> you already have to package a few JARs to have a basic Maven helloWorld working
 * Koon looks
<persia> Aren't most of the build-deps also dependent on maven?  I'd think we could do a PoC from somewhere on the bottom of the stack.
<Koon> the stack is kinda circular, if you see what I mean
<persia> Hrm.  So we need to do some bootstrap analysis to figure out how to get started.
<Koon> i'll start a page for tracking work to be done to get a helloWorld working
<Koon> i'll present it at next meeting
<persia> Koon: Excellent, thank you.
<Koon> that's all from my side
<persia> OK.  Next, slytherin mentioned he's planning to not talk much, but left status at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/MoveToUniverse
<Koon> hm. I've a little more
<persia> Looks like we have 5 more packages on the way, including the dbus bindings
<Koon> I've been working on tomcat5.5 fixes for Intrepid
<Koon> at the moment it won't even install from scratch.
<Koon> I plan to rollback a couple of fixes as an hardy SRU
<Koon> (and that's really all)
 * slytherin raises hand
<slytherin> persia: dbus-java is dependent on libmatthew-java. I will try fixing libmatthew-java FTBFS today
<persia> Koon: When you say "roll back", what do you mean?  Is it more updates, or does stuff have to get pulled?
<persia> slytherin: OK.  So we're waiting on the FTBFS for that?
<slytherin> yes
<persia> slytherin: Any other notes?
<slytherin> because the dbus-java version which is supposed to move to universe has not yet built
<Koon> persia: for example, fixing the JDK_HOME list so that it runs with OpenJDK
<persia> Koon: OK.  I was just worried we might have to chase more freeze exceptions.  If it's just making something broken work, we ought be safe.
<persia> slytherin: OK.  Do you need anything for that, or are you making good progress?
<slytherin> persia: good progress. I may be filing few more FFE. I admit I should have done all this before FF.
<Koon> for tomcat5.5 in intrepid there are a few borderline cases, but i don't think they are FFe-relevant. Will check with my sponsor.
<persia> slytherin: OK.  While some of those are worth Feature Freeze exceptions, I don't think they will be worth BetaFreeze exceptions.  You've perhaps another week and a half to get everything for intrepid done.
<slytherin> persia: I should be done by weekend.
<persia> OK.  Cool.
<persia> And I suppose that I should mention that all the dependencies for NetBeans 6.1 finally got completed this week, so I'll be updating it and removing the old cruft.
<persia> Anyone have anything else?  Anyone need help with something specific?
<slytherin> persia: Congrats on netbeans work. :-) It wasn't easy.
<persia> slytherin: Full credit belongs to the NetBeans team, not to me.
<slytherin> I know.
<slytherin> Still reviewing the package is no minor accomplishment
<persia> Luckily I actually use it :)
<persia> OK.  Until next week then.
<persia> slytherin to complete the MoveToMain planning for intrepid.
<persia> Koon to do some preliminary analysis for bootstrapping maven
<persia> persia to file removals for old NetBeans cruft.
<Koon> ok, see you all next week then
<emgent> hello
<amireldor> hello
<hvralpha> hello
<leoquant> goede avond
<amireldor> there's a meeting soon, right?
<heno> amireldor: there is always a meeting soon in #ubuntu-meeting ;) (yes, the EMEA membership meeting)
<amireldor> heno: good! so i'm finally in the right place and the right time
<Arc> lol
<Arc> UTC trip ya up?
<amireldor> Arc it's 22:00 where i come from
<Arc> 15:00 here
<amireldor> Arc you live in the past
<amireldor> i come from the future
<Arc> apparently
<emgent> uhm
<emgent> !schedule rome
<ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about schedule rome
<emgent> @schedule rome
<ubottu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 12 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Release | 14 Sep 20:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 06:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 13:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 17:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 19:00: QA Team
<emgent> it`snt scheduled..
<amireldor> what not scheduled? i have been waiting for the EMEA meeting my entire life
<emgent> waiting people..
<Arc> I thought their meetings were a little more frequent than that
<emgent> waiting stgraber and other Council people
<stgraber> emgent: I'm unfortunately in the middle of a meeting, I'll do my best to follow the emea meeting though
<emgent> stgraber: do you know who will take the chair in this meet ?
<emgent> phanatic, Seveas ?
<heno> popey, PriceChild: emea meeting ping
<PriceChild> Allo
<emgent> heya PriceChild :)
<heno> hey PriceChild :)
<PriceChild> Hmm, ubottu not change topics?
 * PriceChild files a bug
<stgraber> emgent: not me :)
<phanatic> hey everyone
<didrocks> PriceChild: ^^
<emgent> ah ok hehe
<emgent> PriceChild: meeting not scheduled
<heno> it's on the Fridge
<PriceChild> emgent: pardon?
<emgent> uhm..
<emgent> @schedule
<ubottu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Sep 15:00: Ubuntu Release | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 17:00: QA Team
<PriceChild> emgent: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1648
<didrocks> (and http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event)
<PriceChild> Anyway..
<amireldor> anyway...
<ara_> hello all
<PriceChild> So we have Me, phanatic, stgraber..
<didrocks> hi ara_
<PriceChild> Seveas doodle'd he could make it I believe.
<stgraber> PriceChild: only half of me is attending the meeting, the other is attending a real-life meeting :)
<amireldor> is hunmaat
<amireldor> here?
<hunmaat> amireldor: pong
<amireldor> hello
<hunmaat> hi
<amireldor> you are the first candidate i recon
<didrocks> stgraber: real life ? O_o ok, this things with interactive people, isn't it? :)
<stgraber> didrocks: yeah
<didrocks> stgraber: awesome ^^
<amireldor> heno are you the host of the EMEA meeting?
<heno> no :)
<amireldor> oh, so who is?
<heno> I'm just visiting :)
<PriceChild> amireldor: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-emea/+members
<amireldor> thanks PriceChild, is anyone of the members around at all?
<hunmaat> amireldor: see above...
<PriceChild> amireldor: If you would check the list, you would see I, phanatic & half of stgraber are present.
<emgent> :)
<didrocks> so, 2 persons and half :)
<Arc> is that quorum?
<PriceChild> I would prefer we had half the team, ie 4 people present, definitely 3, not 2 and a half so I think we'll wait a little to see if Seveas appears?
<phanatic> PriceChild: i agree
<amireldor> oh hello PriceChild i just saw you are an EMEA member
<amireldor> i hope i'm not rude but aren't we suppose to check up with hunmaat ?
<PriceChild> amireldor: pardon?
<amireldor> he is the first candidate for ubuntu membership, as i see on the EMEA wiki page
<PriceChild> amireldor: 1221160376 0911T201256 < PriceChild> I would prefer we had half the team, ie 4 people present, definitely 3, not 2 and a half so I think we'll wait a little  to see if Seveas appears?
<amireldor> oh so we are waiting for more people to come, i see
<amireldor> i'm just a little tight on schedule and not sure i have a lot of time for this meeting now
<PriceChild> Looking at Seveas' last seen time, and the doodle we did, I don't believe we'll be seeing him tonight so I think it best we reschedule I'm afraid.
<Arc> alan pope isn't showing up?
<PriceChild> Arc: he hasn't responded to a ping here.
<Arc> yea he's been idle for 2+ hours
<PriceChild> Sorry folks.
<ara_> :(
<Arc> any idea when the reschedule will be for?
<Arc> it'd be nice for our LoCo to have at least one member come SFD
<heno> Hm, we should consider doing membership application in an asynchronous medium
<Arc> I was thinking that too
<PriceChild> That's 20 minutes. We'll send a mail around and set a time for late next week hopefully, and get that announced on the wiki page & fridge by this weekend (i'll make sure to email the right list this time)
<didrocks> if possible, it would be great :/
<nizarus> we can wait that the second half of stgraber :)
<leoquant> no Seveas today
<stgraber> that'll still not make 4
<nizarus> :(
<leoquant> Seveas is on holiday
<PriceChild> stgraber: phanatic that sound ok?
<PriceChild> leoquant: Yep, I think he's been planning it for some time.
<leoquant> indeed
<Arc> is there a good chance at least 4 members will be able to attend a meeting next week instead?
<phanatic> PriceChild: sure
<PriceChild> Arc: We'll do our best. Sorry for the trouble today.
<stefanlsd> Is there nobody from any other regional councils that could attend. Or doesnt it that work like that...
<ara_> if it is the same time as today, I am afraid I won't be able to attend next week
<Arc> the asian and american councils just had their meetings, it'll be a few weeks before they have another
<nizarus> so PriceChild, meeting reported or not yet ?
<didrocks> (and sure for next week?)
<PriceChild> nizarus: pardon?
<Arc> it seems like the membership councils were setup to answer growing workload, but without enough committed people to make it work
<Arc> unless this is just an unusual circumstance
<didrocks> PriceChild: I think that nizarus waited to confirm that the meeting is reported to another date and will not be held today
<PriceChild> We won't hold it today, but will put the new ate on our page and the fridge
<didrocks> s/waited/wanted
<didrocks> ok, thanks PriceChild ;)
<nizarus> thx PriceChild and didrocks
<didrocks> so, see you soon everyone!
<ara_> ok bye!
<nizarus>  @schedule tunis
<nizarus> @schedule tunis
<ubottu> Schedule for Africa/Tunis: 12 Sep 17:00: Ubuntu Release | 14 Sep 20:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 06:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 13:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 17:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 19:00: QA Team
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-09-12
<NCommander> I think its meeting time
<Riddell> good evening Friends
<Riddell> who's all here for a Kubuntu meeting?
<JontheEchidna> \o
<NCommander> here
<blizzz> here
<NCommander> Shall I start the meeting?
<Daisuke_Ido> i'm here to listen and absorb
<Riddell> council check
<Riddell> Nightrose, yuriy?
<Riddell> nixternal?
<yuriy> hi
<Nightrose> pong
<twylight> bI am here.
 * Nightrose waves
<apachelogger> o/
<Nightrose> :)
<Riddell> groovy, memberships first
<NCommander> \o/
<NCommander> Riddell, not going to use moobot?
<Riddell> I don't know how
<Riddell> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:02. The chair is Riddell.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * JontheEchidna apt-get moo's
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> NCommander, There is already a meeting in progress.
<NCommander> Damn it
<Riddell> TOPIC NCommander
<NCommander> Riddell, [TOPIC] NCommander
<Riddell> [TOPIC] NCommander
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander
<NCommander> \o/
<Riddell> NCommander: who are you and why do you like us?
<NCommander> I'm Michael Casadevall, I'm a firefighter in Rochester, and I like to help because KDE is the source of some rather interesting FTBFS (that, and I use it on and off as my default DE)
<apachelogger> Oo
<apachelogger> what kind of usability is that?
<NCommander> apachelogger, what usability?
<apachelogger> NCommander: can I put *ubuntu on my iPhone already?
<NCommander> I also use KDE and Qt for some development I do on the side, so I have an interest in keeping it running
<NCommander> apachelogger, I can port it for you, but we're off topic
<apachelogger> _exactly_
<Riddell> NCommander: why do compile failures annoy you so much?
 * apachelogger finds that quite topicish
<NCommander> Riddell, it's not annoy, its fun to fix it. It's something I have a knack for
<NCommander> and its a good way to contribute since very few people know how to fix FTBFS, and even fewer like to
<Riddell> NCommander: when did you first get into helping ubuntu?
<JontheEchidna> you sir, are a nobler man than I
<apachelogger> NCommander: do you expect to become a motu in the future?  and if you do, would you spend time reviewing other people's packages on revu? e.g. KDE packages?
<NCommander> pub   1024D/9DA2DA9B 2008-07-06
<NCommander> 07-06-2008
<NCommander> apachelogger, I plan to apply for MOTU at the end of september, and for core-dev sometime into intrepid+1's cycle
<NCommander> apachelogger, I always offer to help review packages on REVU, I was responsible for the first set of upgrades which gave REVU Launchpad intergration, and debrowned it
<NCommander> (its got a Kubuntu-ish color style now)
<JontheEchidna> yay for debrowning!
<apachelogger> ok
<apachelogger> final question
<apachelogger> NCommander: when does revu get oxygen icons?
<NCommander> apachelogger, it already has them
<yuriy> NCommander: are you already an ubuntu or xubuntu member? (dunno if there is such a thing)
<apachelogger> NCommander: don't see them :(
 * NCommander can't get autocomplete to work
<NCommander> apachelogger, rainCT said he installed that patch, not sure if he actually rolled to production yet, I'll have to ask
<apachelogger> \o/
<NCommander> yuriy, I'm an Xubuntu developer, and have a pending UUC application
<Riddell> UUC?
<JontheEchidna> Ubuntu Universe Contributor
 * apachelogger is supporting NCommander's membership
 * JontheEchidna needs to file one
<Nightrose> Riddell: pre-motu
<Riddell> what's the difference again?
<apachelogger> hm
<seele> sorry for the tardy
<JontheEchidna> Riddell: UUC is motu-in-training I think
<apachelogger> we talke about that, didn't we
<apachelogger> hey seele
<apachelogger> Riddell: UUC is the developer's member status
<NCommander> One of my largest goals for Kubuntu and Ubuntu in general is porting it to armel, and m68k :-)
<yuriy> wasn't enough beurocracy
<NCommander> yes, and I'm serious on that second one
<twylight> yay synaptic
<Riddell> ah well, if we vote now he might not need it :)
<JontheEchidna> NCommander: motorola 68k?
<NCommander> JontheEchidna, m68k :-)
<NCommander> I'll just need 30 or so emulators to get the build power up
<JontheEchidna> haha
<Nightrose> NCommander: any advocacy you are doing besides all the great FTBS fixing?
<Riddell> +1 from me for lots of useful fixes
<NCommander> I should also note I'm a Debian m68k developer, and a current NM
<NCommander> I'm also a Debian hurd developer
<JontheEchidna> +1, We need more low-level dudes in Kubuntu
<NCommander> I've done some kernel hacking, and gcc love
<NCommander> and ScottK has learned to corner me for fixing broken libtool and autofunk
<Riddell> yuriy, Nightrose, seele?
<yuriy> NCommander: done any of your own packaging?
<seele> Riddell: i don't know what we are talking about
<NCommander> yuriy, codeblocks, pangomm, both new
<Riddell> seele: NCommander's membership
<Nightrose> NCommander: any advocacy you are doing besides all the great FTBS fixing?
<NCommander> yuriy, the entire xfce 4.6 alpha 0 release
<NCommander> yuriy, (22 packages)
<Nightrose> (repeated since it was missed it seems)
<NCommander> yuriy, a whole lot of GNOME updates
<NCommander> kde-meta
<NCommander> And a load of fixes for kdelibs, kdenetwork (ported it to lpia and amd64), and koffice2
<NCommander> I have 36 uploads not counting 20-30 backports
<seele> NCommander: do you know c++?
 * Nightrose feels ignored but gives a +1 anyway for low-level work noone else seems to be too keen on
<NCommander> C, C++, x86 ASM, avr ASM, m68k ASM, ada, java, python, some perl, PHP, some C#
<Nightrose> ;-)
<NCommander> Visual Basic
<seele> +1 from me if you fix system settings menu :)
<NCommander> (maybe, not sure if I still remember it)
<NCommander> COBOL
<JontheEchidna> brb
<seele> j/k
<seele> +1
<NCommander> I am working to fix the GNAT issues in Hardy ATM
<yuriy> +1 for lots of important fixes
<NCommander> (I think I scared -sru off, no one ever tried to upload 12 packages in a single go)
<yuriy> despite mentioning Visual Basic ;)
<Riddell> welcome to membership NCommander
<NCommander> yuriy, I program in real mode x86 ASM
<NCommander> yuriy, I know no fear :-)
<Riddell> any other memberships tonight?
<yuriy> welcome NCommander
<NCommander> \o/
<blizzz> congratz NCommander
<NCommander> yay at sonicmctails@kubuntu.com!
<apachelogger> kubuntu.org!
<apachelogger> we don't take kindly to .com
<apachelogger> :P
<NCommander> s/com/org
<Riddell> apachelogger had some agenda items
<apachelogger> Riddell: let's do UDS/FOSSCamp first
<Riddell> if that makes sense
<Riddell> who wants to come to UDS?
<Riddell> we have had lots of great contibutors doing good stuff this cycle
<NCommander> I do, but I can't make the date
 * apachelogger can't either
<Riddell> and it would be great to have lots of you there
<NCommander> I might be able to do FOSSCamp however
<Riddell> canonical typically sponsors five or so Kubuntu people
<Riddell> so don't be shy
<yuriy> what are the dates for FOSSCamp + UDS?
<coreymon77> hi guys
<coreymon77> sorry im late
<NCommander> Riddell, I can get sponsorship on both through Xubuntu, so I don't need to take a spot from the Kubuntu team
<seele> yuriy: december 5-6 for fosscamp, the following week for uds
<Riddell> the process is different this time in that you have to nominate yourself and fill in the form thingy
<Riddell> which currently requires you to find things you're interested in on brainstorm
<yuriy> ah so Dec. 8-12 for UDS
<NCommander> Grumpy Groundhog
<Riddell> I'm told you can apply with specs and non-brainstorm topic ideas but I havn't had a response from jono to confirm that
<Riddell> but we'll sort that out
<yuriy> that's better than what I thought, I thought it was the week after, which is finals
<NCommander> Riddell, I'd like to submit the through on KDE 4.1 on lpia; ATM, it exists, but its really not in a state great for netbooks
<NCommander> *thought
<Riddell> NCommander: go for it
<apachelogger> Riddell: I guess you'll send a mail clearifying this to the list?
<NCommander> The biggest hold up is we had loads of FTBFS on lpia which finally got cleared up
<Riddell> apachelogger: clarifying which?
<NCommander> Riddell, BTW, who adds me to Kubuntu-members?
<apachelogger> Riddell: what stuff can be used for the sponsoring applicatoin
<seele> Riddell: on the process
<Riddell> NCommander: me
<NCommander> cool
<Riddell> apachelogger: I'd like to think jono would
<seele> Riddell: he didnt send a mail to start with
<apachelogger> fair enough :)
<seele> Riddell: so i guess only people who read his blog are invited
<Riddell> I'd also hope that he or jcastro will let us know the process for FOSSCamp sponsorships
<Riddell> if there's suggestions of KDE people for that I'd like to hear
<apachelogger> seele: mark mentioned it in his jackalope mail I think
<yuriy> I'd like to go, but don't think I'd be able to skip the last week of class for it, plus I don't know what discussion I would lead or how much I'll actually be able to contribute in the next 7 months
<Riddell> seele: or in the case of FOSSCamp, facebook :)
<seele> apachelogger: ah well then everyone must know by now
 * seele hides
<apachelogger> lol
<NCommander> apachelogger, anyway, if your interested in darwin-arm (iPhone) port of Ubuntu, its quite fessible
<apachelogger> Riddell: you should get aseigo to fosscamp and make him a Kubuntu user again ;-)
<Riddell> if you want me to look at your application text I'd be happy to do that
<apachelogger> probably also god discussion partner for NCommander about small form factor devices
<Riddell> I'll probably poke some people later in the week
<Riddell> let's move on
<NCommander> Well, for small form factor devices, we need mips and armel ports
<NCommander> Since most small form are one of those two
<seele> Riddell: it would be helpful that if we dont have to do brainstorm ideas that we have an email to send our "app" to
<nixternal> hey hey, I am here...my train was a bit late tonight
<seele> Riddell: jjesse said there is a 1000 character limit in the textbox
<Riddell> seele: yeah, I'll talk to scott when he recovers from illness
<NCommander> I'm willing to bootstrap the port if possible if someone can scrounge up fast hardware
 * NCommander has a pitifully slow ARM box
<Riddell> apachelogger: want to do you agenda items?
 * apachelogger pokes JontheEchidna
<apachelogger> ah well, my agenda partner got lost
<apachelogger> The old kubuntu-team is going to become kubuntu-bugs
<NCommander> apachelogger, as an aside, thanks for random :-P
<apachelogger> NCommander: you're welcome :P
<apachelogger> The list kubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com is being updated with latest and greatest KDE bugs (by now all of core KDE 4).
<apachelogger> I'll announce it on the list and my blog and the channel when kubuntu-bugs is ready for joiners.
<NCommander> apachelogger, I'd like to help beta test kubuntu-bugs setup and such
<apachelogger> NCommander: not mutch to test really ;-)
 * NCommander has a few things to bring up once apachelogger is done
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna is doing a lot of work on bug triage, which makes me think that we all should spend a bit more time in malone and triage KDE bugs. A good triaged bug with a appropriate priority and upstram bug watch can help us improve the quality for Intrepid a lot compared to previous series.
 * JontheEchidna is back
 * apachelogger tells JontheEchidna to take over
<JontheEchidna> Currently fully-triaged modules in Malone/Launchpad include:
<Riddell> ok, anything else?
<JontheEchidna> kdebase-workspace
<JontheEchidna> kdebase-runtime
<JontheEchidna> kde4libs
<JontheEchidna> adept
<JontheEchidna> What we really need help in are:
<JontheEchidna> -kdepim
<JontheEchidna> -kdebase, though it is getting better
<yuriy> oh wow
 * Riddell seconds wow
<NCommander> as an aside, I recommend setting up ccache if you are going to work on kdepim due to the build time of that beast
<apachelogger> Volunteers please poke JontheEchidna or me for help or introduction.
<Nightrose> JontheEchidna++ apachelogger++
<nixternal> bah ccache :P
<JontheEchidna> Most of the -kde4 packages have had all of the bugs that are still relevant have been moved to their normal packages
<apachelogger> Developers should take a look at the fully triaged modules and nominate stuff for Intrepid where it makes sense.
<nixternal> debuild -nc && dh_install --list-missing --sourcedir=debian/tmp
<apachelogger> Comments about bugs?
<NCommander> nixternal, why list missing, why not fail-missing
<Riddell> have you noticed much in the way of apport bugs since we turned it on for KDE?
<nixternal> you get the same thing
<NCommander> nixternal, fail-missing makes sure you properly add install lines for everything
<Riddell> ahem, topic
<NCommander> sorry
<apachelogger> Riddell: Not really.
<nixternal> --list-missing has yet to fail me now in the many many years of using it
<apachelogger> However, apport has a problem with retracing.
<Riddell> apachelogger: I wonder if that means nobody is using alphas or if KDE 4 just doesn't crash
<JontheEchidna> Riddell: apport has been failing to retrace lately
<JontheEchidna> a lot
<NCommander> retracing?
<apachelogger> It appears to me that apport can't retrace a crash if it was detected in a wrong binary package.
<apachelogger> e.g. a crash is filed against phonon while it is happening in libxine, there is a good chance retracing is going to fail.
<apachelogger> Riddell: Know anything about this?
<Riddell> nope
<Riddell> pitti is the dude for apport details
<apachelogger> We'll do some investigation on this and poke him if it really seems to be the wrong binary package that caues the retrace to fail.
<yuriy> so we'll need to bug him about that (no pun intended)
<james_w> are you seeing it for Hardy or Intrepid?
<apachelogger> NCommander: apport retraces crashes on LP if the reporting system was missing debugging symbols
<apachelogger> james_w: Intrepid
<NCommander> apachelogger, ah, that sounds about right
<james_w> apachelogger: does it set "apport-failed-retrace" or they just don't get looked at?
<yuriy> james_w: it does set it
<james_w> ah, ok. Maybe some KDE-related dbgsym package is un-installable. pitti or seb128 will be able to investigate
<james_w> I've seen plenty of bugs get retraced in the last couple of days, so it's not a global problem I don't think
<Riddell> next item?
<apachelogger> upgrade testing
<Riddell> I plan to do lots of that next week
 * vorian comes in late
<yuriy> is there an upgrade path for people with -kde4 packages installed?
<nixternal> I can attest that the upgrade was a mess, but that was more than likely due to KDE 3 and 4 being installed on my machine
<apachelogger> I'd like to invite everyone to do upgrade testing hardy -> intrepid
<apachelogger> well
<NCommander> yuriy, we could make the path with a LOT of virtual packages
<apachelogger> I'd like to have as many reports on this as possible
<apachelogger> wrong configuration updates in KDE 3 -> KDE 4
<Riddell> yuriy: that should be handled by the distupgrade tool but only for the last few days
<yuriy> replaces/conflicts doesn't handle stuff like that?
<mhb> apachelogger: I'll try to add a few
<apachelogger> or file conflicts in packages
<apachelogger> just anything you got
<NCommander> yuriy, maybe
<apachelogger> As of today VirtualBox should work with Intrepid again.
<nixternal> the best thing to do is backup your stuff, go out to tty, kill kdm, rm -rf ~/.kde*, --purge remove all the old KDE stuff and then do an upgrade, then install kde4
<vorian> virtual packages will be the way to go
<Riddell> nixternal: it really shouldn't be like that
<apachelogger> I suggest installing a plain KDE 3 hardy and a plain KDE 4 hardy, creating VM snapshots of both, and then test scenarios
<nixternal> Riddell: it was last week when I tried on a machine at work
<vorian> apachelogger: good plan
<apachelogger> To speed up package download I can suggest apt-cacher (proxy for APT)
<nixternal> apachelogger: that is a smoke test plan setup for failure though, as nobody is using plain this or that
<apachelogger> You can find a howto for it @ help.ubuntu.com
<apachelogger> nixternal: Plain as a basis to revert to
<nixternal> I recommend setting up virtual box, and then installing everything you have locally, then copying ~/ to vbox and then try
<yuriy> and first plain has to work before more complicated stuff can
<apachelogger> Plain works pretty well from what I have seen
<apachelogger> upgrading recommends of kubuntu-desktop doesn't work yet, but otherwise it should be ok
<apachelogger> I'll try to write a short guide on upgrade testing within the next few days.
<james_w> you might be interested in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-August/026017.html
<apachelogger> Comments on upgrade testing?
<nixternal> I would rather see a much steeper plan for testing than a basic one...I think in the past the basic tests have come back to bite us at times
<apachelogger> james_w: thanks, bookmarked :)
<vorian> i have no problem doing it on an actual partition
<apachelogger> oh
<apachelogger> Right!
<Riddell> on a related topic, we got the ok for 8.04 to 9.04 upgrades this afternoon
<apachelogger> Another important test case it o actually install on your PC/Laptop
<Riddell> there's a bit of thinking into how to make that actually happen, but it should work
<apachelogger> Riddell: Cool :)
<apachelogger> When you install Intrepid on your PC/Laptop give the application a fancy use case test.
<apachelogger> Like take your Laptop to all sorts of places with all sorts of different printer setup ans try to hook it up.
<nixternal> apachelogger: that is something we need to come up with...we need to come up with a bunch of use cases and smoke testing standards
<nixternal> how many here have been doing any sort of regression testing?
<apachelogger> Or get a clean profile and try using features you normaly wouldn't use.
<apachelogger> nixternal: Do you have time to write something?
<seele> oh
 * apachelogger can certainly document the scenarios he did so far.
<seele> before we hit the next topic should we go through the todo list?
<nixternal> apachelogger: I could make some...I am finalizing use cases and smoke test plans for a work project and I see how much of a difference they make when it comes to QA and bug triage
<yuriy> next topic is jaunty? then yes
<nixternal> I have a topic to add as well, actually a super call-for-help
<apachelogger> yuriy: last it is
<nixternal> I will do that last but I will need everyones help probably
<apachelogger> Any more comments on upgrade testing?
<seele> so since we were talking about testing.. what is left on the ToDo list?  what wont make it?
<vorian> who's doing the test cases?
<apachelogger> nixternal and me
<yuriy> seele: something you're concerned about on the todo list?
<nixternal> vorian: they need to be established first... seele, you have any UI test cases I could use as a basis?
<apachelogger> In fact everyone could document what they are doing
<nixternal> the UI ones I am using at work are web based cases
<vorian> nixternal: yes, that's what i meant, sorry
<seele> yuriy: no, i was just wonder where we were
<seele> there hasn't been a complete go through of the todo for a while afaik
<seele> i know JontheEchidna had gone through some parts
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo seems fairly up to date
<NCommander> What's the status on ubinity's KDE4 port?
<NCommander> I dunno if someone started working on this or not
<nixternal> ubiquity you mean?
<NCommander> er, yeah
<Riddell> NCommander: not heard of any change
<NCommander> I looked and played with the source
<nixternal> haha, had me confused for a second
<JontheEchidna> seele: it should be pretty much up-to-date
<NCommander> The port should be straightforward enough
<nixternal> NCommander: the ubiquity code is very easy
<Riddell> NCommander: yes it would be pretty quick
<NCommander> It's a single file that needs a rewrite
<yuriy> a couple things on there.. userconfig unfortunately I haven't had time for
<Riddell> not a rewrite
<seele> Riddell: what's left with system-config-printer-kde?
<yuriy> kcmrandr I am concerned about
<yuriy> it does _work_ to an extent
<Riddell> seele: lots I'm afraid
<apachelogger> NCommander: just porting from Q* to K*
<Riddell> seele: lots of features missing, lots of usability stuff to do, lots of code tidying to do
<NCommander> I can't find much in terms of docs on python-kde4
<yuriy> but it's buggy and I haven't seen any way to configure dual head
<apachelogger> NCommander: like using a KProcess instead of a QProcess
<Riddell> seele: the basics work and it's in upstream KDE for 4.2
<nixternal> I have to admit, KDE 4 + xrandr on a dual monitor setup == flawless for me...I totally love how I can change the wallpaper on each monitor...let me see another de or windows do that :)
<yuriy> NCommander: there's documentation at reverbankcomputing
<yuriy> NCommander: and mostly you can just use api.kde.org
<NCommander> yuriy, link?
<NCommander> I'll take a second look at it
<Riddell> yuriy: that now includes sime's pykde api docs
<yuriy> *riverbank
<seele> Riddell: so it just needs tested?
<yuriy> oh, well then ^^
<Riddell> seele: testing is nice but mostly it needs more developer time
<goatsocks> NCommander: http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Languages/Python
<seele> ack, so there's broken stuff?  or just missing stuff?
<NCommander> Do we want to remove raw Qt support from Ubiquity in favor or KDE4, or support both if possible
<Riddell> seele: just missing
<seele> well that's better than broken.. :-/
<Riddell> NCommander: let's do this out of meeting
<NCommander> ah, ok
<Riddell> we've had less coding team members this cycle (but lots more packaging going on) so stuff from KubuntuIntrepidDefaults remains undone
<apachelogger> *adds new agenda item about that*
<apachelogger> Oh right.
<nixternal> Riddell: I can do some coding
<NCommander> [IDEA] Work on KubuntuIntrepidDefaults coding
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Work on KubuntuIntrepidDefaults coding
<nixternal> C++ or Python, your choice :)
<apachelogger> We don't have a mountconfig port on the way, do we?
<Riddell> nope
<seele> is smarter here?
<NCommander> I did the Xfce 4.6 exit dialog, I can maybe work on doing it on KDE, but I honestly don't use Qt so my basis is limited
<apachelogger> I'd like to suggest mountmanager as replacement
<apachelogger> seele: he is in bed
<seele> hrm
<Riddell> I always think of mountconfig has being a feature failure, users shouldn't have to care about fstab
<seele> is kvkbd supposed to be an access tool or onscreen keyboard for tablets?
<nixternal> seele: access tool
<goatsocks> apachelogger: the mountmanager UI is really bad, looks like it was designed by an engineer: http://img.flashtux.org/img13269103725x67eec7f8.png
<Riddell> seele: accesilibility primarily
<nixternal> I think it is dead though, I haven't spoken to the dev in a while now
<mhb> Riddell: people should be able to mount their networked discs, though
<apachelogger> goatsocks: well, I share Riddell's opinion on fstab stuff
<goatsocks> apachelogger: not to mention it uses qt4 but somehow doesn't pick up my kde style or qt4 style, and uses its own fonts and plastik
<seele> nixternal: it got ported and smarter asked me to look at it the other day
<Riddell> mhb: we have KDE ways of doing that
<apachelogger> goatsocks: doesn't here, might be sudo related
<Riddell> for home network use cases anyway
<mhb> Riddell: do you?
<apachelogger> network:/
<seele> you can do that through Dolphin, can't you?
<mhb> Riddell: well then they never were well presented, I guess.
<apachelogger> seele: network in the sidebar ;-)
<Riddell> mhb: no I think that could be done better
<mhb> Riddell: and of course, having a KDE-only way is silly, and should not be preferred.
<nixternal> hehe, I see I am not the only one using skulpture theme
<seele> apachelogger: yes, i dont use it, i just thought it did exist
<mhb> people also use non-KDE apps, like OO, keep that in mind, please.
<goatsocks> hotplug mounting is best handled by either kwikdisk (shipped with kdeutils) or the device notifier plasmoid
<yuriy> mhb: we'll have to fix that ;)
<apachelogger> mhb: last I checked ooo supports most of the slaves somewhat
<apachelogger> like smb:/ seems to be working IIRC
<Riddell> apachelogger: who's advocating that we include mount manager?
<apachelogger> me I guess ;-)
<Riddell> apachelogger: what's your rationale?
<mhb> yuriy: I'm not sure we should - I wouldn't like a one-colour world
<apachelogger> We don't have a mount manager right now
<Riddell> apachelogger: but what's the usecase for you?
<nixternal> sure we do, it's called the user :P
<nixternal> I think everyone needs to learn udev rules
<apachelogger> Riddell: Advanced users might want to fiddle with their fstab, we should give them a tool to do that.
<seele> apachelogger: advanced users would edit /etc/fstab?
<apachelogger> most likely, pimp their settings
<apachelogger> Also mountmanger got an "easy" ISO mount pluign
<nixternal> seele: nah, udev rules..that is true pimping and my new best friend
<yuriy> apachelogger: what happened to kiso?
<nixternal> I have written so many damn udev rules now for our appliances at work, that I absolutely love it
<apachelogger> yuriy: KDE 3
<yuriy> no port?
<apachelogger> Didn't see one so far
<apachelogger> Anyway, mountmanager got problems.
<apachelogger> As goatsocks said the GUI isn't exactly user friendly.
<mhb> My opinion is that even though a mount manager per se is not necessary, we should not really just use some KDE-only technology and feel done with it.
<apachelogger> And some weird documentation issues
<nixternal> mhb: what other technology do you recommend?
<nixternal> and what would you think about making a Qt fork or port of it?
<mhb> nixternal: any system-wide stuff that works for mixed systems, the one every non-radical user has
<Riddell> apachelogger: I can confirm the UI strangeness, looking at it
<mhb> a bit of this, a byte of that
<goatsocks> gnome uses some harebrained mounter based on fuse, never works
<nixternal> goatsocks: I got it to work once!
<mhb> nixternal: I prefer mounting to KIO slaves.
<apachelogger> Riddell: Maybe we should consider it on a long term. Get in touch with upstream, propose some improvements and see whether he wants to cooperate
<mhb> nixternal: if that's what you meant. Mounting is system-wide, KIO slaves only for KDE apps.
<yuriy> mhb: I think we should do the best with the technology we have rather than trying to cater to the lowest common denominator. but this is getting off topic.
<nixternal> mhb: +1 on that idea honestly, but unfortunately unless there is something out there already, I don't see the time to implement such a thing this release
<mhb> ok
 * apachelogger wants to note that we should focus on QA for intrepid mostly
<Riddell> apachelogger: that sounds good, I'm not terribly enthusiastic about it currently as a tool with notable UI problems on top of being unconvinced of the usecase
<apachelogger> Ok, I'll contact upstream and target 9.04 as possible inclusion series.
<Riddell> next item?
<seele> planning for intrepid
<Nightrose> move to and copy to in dolphin
<seele> what are our goals for intrepid and what would we like to accomplish
<seele> er
<seele> jaunty
<seele> gah
 * apachelogger finds that a bit early really :P
 * seele falls over
<Nightrose> seele: mind if I do the dolphin stuff now - it will be  quick
<seele> oh, i didnt see it on the list sorry
<Nightrose> it is not there sorry
<Riddell> Nightrose: go go
<apachelogger> Nightrose can't edit the wiki either :P
<Nightrose> so sealne proposed to enable "move to" and "copy to" in the right click menu by default in dolphin
<Nightrose> I think that is a really good idea
<Nightrose> right now you have to enable it in the settings
<Nightrose> and it will probably go unnoticed by a lot of users
<Nightrose> I loved that feature in kde 3
<Riddell> file management through right click menu never seems very user friendly to me
<apachelogger> hm
<apachelogger> +1
<Nightrose> the advantage is that you don't need to have the source and destination dir open
<seele> why was it taken out or was it not in dolphin by default?
<Nightrose> but only the source dir
<Nightrose> which i think is great
<apachelogger> Well
 * apachelogger tests
<Nightrose> seele: it was default in konqui
<seele> Nightrose: yes i know
<Nightrose> no idea why it is not default in doplhin now
<seele> do you know why it wasn't enabled in Dolphin?
<seele> hmm
<apachelogger> It makes sense for advanced users IMHO
<nixternal> actually, the "copy to" feature is used a lot by newer users unfamiliar with the command line
<apachelogger> Not for the target audience though.
<nixternal> we just did a test and that was one thing they missed in gnome I heard
<apachelogger> nixternal: What does 'new users' mean in this context?
<nixternal> non-apachelogger's
<nixternal> :P
<Riddell> we should probably ask Peter Penz for his view on it
<nixternal> +1
<apachelogger> +1
<Nightrose> ok
<seele> i'd want to ask the dolphin devs to see why it wasnt in there to start with
<Nightrose> alright
<Nightrose> I will talk to sealne
<Nightrose> and try to get in touch with Peter
<apachelogger> perfect
<Riddell> it's more popular than I expected amonst kubuntu developers anyway
<apachelogger> developers aren't good users though ;-)
<seele> are those devs using dolphin or still using konq as a file manager?
 * Nightrose is using dolphin all the time now
<nixternal> apachelogger: they weren't developers, they were your typical emailers, web browsers, and photo album people
<Riddell> dolphin here
<JontheEchidna> I never used Konq
<nixternal> it was put on by UIC I think just recently
<NCommander> dolphin for me
<NCommander> (when running KDE)
<seele> nixternal: who did the study?  twidale?
<JontheEchidna> Dolphin ftw
<nixternal> I use yakuake as a file manager :)
<NCommander> konq always felt slow and bloated
<blizzz> konsole in first line, dolphin then
 * apachelogger rembmers that a lot of people complained about switching to dolphin in KDE3 :P
<nixternal> seele: dunno who did it, I just know a few of the students who were apart of it
<seele> hmmm
<nixternal> and twidale does sound familiar to me
<Nightrose> apachelogger: because it was not as great as it is now
<JontheEchidna> Konq always felt like there was too much there for movign around my files
<Riddell> let's move on
<blizzz> well, on my machine at work with kde3 i use konquerer
<seele> nixternal: big time IS researcher at uiuc who did some of the first work on open source usability ;)
<apachelogger> jaunty it is
<Riddell> I suggest KDE 4.2
<Nightrose> yea
<apachelogger> definitely
<Nightrose> next one
<seele> what's the cut off to know which point release we can use?
<apachelogger> release date
<seele> we should have at least 4.2.1, there are going to be a lot of changes in 4.2
<apachelogger> which would be 4.2.2 I think
<Riddell> we can generally go with the latest one thanks to the nice 6 month release schedule
<apachelogger> yes
<apachelogger> I think we should focus on QA mostly though
<Nightrose> Riddell: you should mention that in the release schedule thread on k-c-d btw
<Nightrose> people were asking if it is worth it to stick to it
<seele> what are some important things we didnt get to for intrepid that we should plan for in jaunty?
<Riddell> Nightrose: yes, I will when I get round to reading e-mail
<Nightrose> ok
<JontheEchidna> I think Jaunty should be about taming this KDE 4.1 tiger we've made
<seele> Printing and Adept are on my list of things we should focus on in terms of software
<JontheEchidna> bringing it out of the jungle through QA "training"
<seele> they both need love
<Riddell> yes, it should be a KDE 4 fit for your parents
<Riddell> really finish system-config-printer-kde
<apachelogger> most stuff is upstream I think
<JontheEchidna> Great QA will also help upstream projects like Adept
<apachelogger> ark context menus is a very itching issue, a lot of users are missing that
<Riddell> or look at PackageKit again
 * JontheEchidna is missing ark context menus
<seele> what about a samba UI?  that was an ubuntu brainstorm idea with a lot of votes
<Riddell> seele: for configuration?
<seele> yeah
<apachelogger> hm
<JontheEchidna> there is a samba kcm module which is a bit buggy
<apachelogger> low priority IMHO
<nixternal> samba UI? wasn't there something called swat for that?
<Riddell> seele: or just simple file sharing?  we did have a spec for that from last UDS
<blizzz> what about smb4k?
<seele> Riddell: we did?
<nixternal> smb4k sooks
<nixternal> it is constantly eating peoples sudoers files
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: not as much as knetworkconf
<Riddell> seele: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuFilesharing
<nixternal> but smb4k makes it easy to steal from fellow students who are using windows at the university :P
<apachelogger> nixternal: why does it mess with that anyway?
<JontheEchidna> apachelogger: you basically can't give any users samba accounts
<JontheEchidna> still less broken than knetworkconf :P
<apachelogger> doesn't that work out of the box?
<apachelogger> i.e. every system user == samba user?
<nixternal> apachelogger: I have no clue...I fixed it once upon a time and then I heard it came back
<apachelogger> makes more sense to mee than a configuration UI
<apachelogger> also less work
<Riddell> automatic codec install would be nice
<apachelogger> Riddell: did you talk with eean about that?
 * slangasek notes that installing libpam-smbpass in intrepid should now magick your pam config to auto-create users
<Riddell> apachelogger: briefly I think, didn't get much of an outcome as I mind
<seele> ok, so samba yes or no?
<Riddell> seele: is it different from that Filesharing spec?
<apachelogger> Nightrose: could you sound whether eean can get us automagic codec installation?
 * yuriy ate dinner and forgot this meeting was still going on
<apachelogger> lol
<seele> Riddell: no now i remembered we talked about this
<Riddell> heliocastro was also talking about codec installing today
<yuriy> what are we on?
<seele> so ok.. filesharing yes or no.. whatever you want to call it
<Riddell> yuriy: jaunty topics
<Nightrose> apachelogger: i could try but...
<Nightrose> easy sharing would be cool imho
<apachelogger> seele: yes .... without having read the spec I want to add a "in reasonable time effort" to that ;-)
<Riddell> seele: it's quite a large chunk of essentially upstream coding, it's something I think we're missing a lot but I doubt I'll find time
<apachelogger> IMHO avahi is the way to go
<seele> ok, so that is a no
<nixternal> avahi only works on macs
<Riddell> unless someone actively volunteers
<apachelogger> well
<nixternal> I have yet to have a positive avahi experience
<NCommander> avadi is multicast DNS, right?
<apachelogger> your avahi setup sucks to b ehonest
<apachelogger> took me a bit of debugging to get kepas running
<apachelogger> NCommander: yes
<NCommander> Is there any reason why we simply don't use the open Apple Zeroconf?
<nixternal> Riddell: I have a future plan on creating a killer file sharing app that uses our distributed storage network
<NCommander> Which I find works out of the box even on Windows?
 * NCommander has never had avahi work period
<apachelogger> NCommander: it is that
<nixternal> similar in concept to waula or whatever it is called, but with coorporate backing and a hell of a lot more speed, experience, stability, and love :)
<NCommander> Doesn't seem like it; I've compiled mDNSResponsor from source, and I don't remember having those issues
<Riddell> there may be choices for K-Menu replacements in jaunty timeframe
<Riddell> we should evaluate them
<apachelogger> yes
<JontheEchidna> Lancelot ftw
<apachelogger> Raptor ftw
<JontheEchidna> Raptor did look kool
<apachelogger> ok, I might be biased there
 * Nightrose thinks lancelot is nice but switched back to kick-off
<apachelogger> Raptor is pretty much an oxygen child :P
<apachelogger> More thoughts on jaunty?
<seele> Raptor doesnt exist yet, has Ruphy begun coding it yet?
<apachelogger> seele: he keeps telling me "soon" ;-)
<apachelogger> for half a year now
<seele> yeah
<Riddell> that doesn't sound promising
<JontheEchidna> Once Lancelot gets some polish it should rock even harder
<apachelogger> well, I trust in the oxygen team
<apachelogger> but we will see
<JontheEchidna> than it does now
<seele> Riddell: did your soc student finish the printer ui?
<Riddell> seele: not that I've noticed
<Riddell> there was a UI there but I don't think applications have been talking to it
 * apachelogger just forgot what he wanted to write
<apachelogger> Anyway, more comments on jaunty?
<seele> Riddell: is the printer config just getting finished and done with or is there UI work to do?
<seele> it doesn't look so great right now, but i dont know if its because most of it is missing or whate
<Riddell> seele: system-config-printer-kde?  there's still your UI spec that I'd like to implement (or have someone implement)
<seele> hmm.. ok.  we should probably look at that again at UDS
<Riddell> yep
 * nixternal can't wait for UDS
<seele> we had a UI spec for the GRUB editor, but it changed significantly when Artemis_Fowl took over
<apachelogger> oh
<apachelogger> What is the QA status of kgrubeditor?
<seele> no one has reported any badness
<Riddell> works for me
<seele> all minor bugs/ui annoyances have been fixed except for two things workflow related
<NCommander> seems to work fine here
<seele> we've deferred it to post intrepid
<apachelogger> Awesome.
<seele> i think there are three things on the TODO list, but they are features and wont get in
<apachelogger> depends on the features really, but I'd like to focus on QA really
<seele> improving the password management workflow, figuring out what to do about the Tools page, and improving the OS information page
<seele> yeah, i think it is good as it is and there isnt a need to try and rush the other stuff in
<apachelogger> *nod*
<Riddell> should it go into upstream KDE for 4.2?
<apachelogger> Riddell: depends in Artemis_Fowl wants to
<seele> Riddell: yes, but i would like to fix password management before we do that
<apachelogger> it certainly would make sense IMHO
<Riddell> right, we can suggest it to him when he next appears
<seele> apachelogger: i'm pretty sure he does
<seele> apachelogger: he converted it to a kcm so it could be
<apachelogger> yes
<apachelogger> but
<apachelogger> I suggested him to go extragear and target inclusion in kdeadmin. He preferred moving to Bzr.
<seele> ah, technical stuff i know nothing about
<apachelogger> :)
 * apachelogger continues with more technical stuff
<apachelogger> 4.1.1 live CDs
<seele> it would be great if we could get one big app like that done a cycle
<seele> printing is the target for jaunty as long as Riddell doesnt tire of me
<JontheEchidna> I saw one review that accredited systemsettings to suse
<JontheEchidna> we need to be more vocal about our upstream contributions :P
<apachelogger> We need to be more vocal about everything
<apachelogger> ryanakca: around?
<seele> JontheEchidna: i think most of the modules were written by suse people
<apachelogger> hm
<apachelogger> Let's move on.
<ryanakca> apachelogger: yes... oh. Hmm. Looks like there was a meeting...
<apachelogger> lol
<apachelogger> ryanakca: want to say something about promotion and marketing?
 * apachelogger doesn't have a plan regarding kubuntu marketing yet.
<JontheEchidna> our current marketing strategy is screenie
<JontheEchidna> \o/
<apachelogger> that is no strategy :P
<ryanakca> Nor do I so far... I can try to think up of a few ideas and then I can poke whoever is interested on the weekend...
<nixternal> I know someone with a marketing background that has been more than willing to help, but never got the nod
<Riddell> well we can discuss it at UDS
<ryanakca> Website tasks are always open for those interested... that would be promotional :)
 * apachelogger is not at UDS :P
 * ryanakca isn't either :/
<apachelogger> nixternal: oh
<nixternal> uds still in december?
<Riddell> nixternal: yes
<seele> who is planning to app to UDS?
<apachelogger> ryanakca: maybe we should do a meeting regarding kubuntu marketing?
<nixternal> apachelogger: ya, I only have 2 degrees in business and marketing...did marketing research and analysis for the chicago cubs
<apachelogger> that emunkki is interessted in joining as well
<nixternal> maybe that's the reason they can't win the world series :P
<vorian> I'm hopihng to make it to uds
<apachelogger> lol
<vorian> hoping even
<apachelogger> nixternal: do you have time for a meeting at the weekdn?
<vorian> why not get with the loco guys to figure out some grass roots type markeitng
<nixternal> I am not hoping, I know I am already going to UDS just as soon as I get my sponshorship email...already have the time off
<nixternal> apachelogger: the weekends work best for me
<apachelogger> ok
<nixternal> early weekends, ie. 1300 UTC
<apachelogger> ryanakca: does that work for you?
<ryanakca> apachelogger: Yes... any time during the day this weekend (EST) should be good for me, shall we pick a time in -devel, or is the meeting over?
<apachelogger> well, let's continue this in -devel
<apachelogger> I have more to talk about here :P
<JontheEchidna> ya, this meeting's running a bit long
<NCommander> There was one pointy for jackalope I wanted to bring up
<NCommander> *point
 * NCommander can't spell tonight
<nixternal> well hurry up, I need to go meet my girlyfriend for dinner some time tonight :P
 * apachelogger pokes NCommander later
<apachelogger> The precious german kubuntu doods started remastering the KDE 4 hardy CD with KDE 4.1.1
<apachelogger> vorian is working on an amd64 version
<vorian> yus!
<apachelogger> We certainly need some testing, please poke me if you got some spare time.
<nixternal> I need to get a new computer as my main dev/testing machine is dead
<apachelogger> One last thing.
<apachelogger> Do you think it makes sense to recruit @ fairs?
<nixternal> yes
<vorian> oh yes
<apachelogger> Riddell mentioned earlier that we were running low on application devs this cycle
<nixternal> you know how many people I have gotten involved through fairs? a lot!
<apachelogger> ok
<apachelogger> We should enforce this a bit then
<nixternal> but at the same time, I have been to fairs with jono and jorge, and they tend to try and convert me to that g thing
<apachelogger> The german doods are at 5 fairs a year I think.
<Riddell> my first expo was on a KDE stand with Jono
<vorian> OlF will be a good front for Kubuntu
<apachelogger> And they don't really do recuriting
<nixternal> then they ask me to package g thing apps for them, and I do, with K based rootkits :P
<vorian> hehe
<apachelogger> Riddell: in the good old times ;-)
<blizzz> i'd like to start with a minor "beginner" task for jackalope, but will ping Riddell then
<nixternal> Riddell: hahaha, I heckled jono for his KDE work when he tried dissing it at penguicon
<apachelogger> blizzz: can you direct this request to the german team: recruit developers @ fairs
<apachelogger> Works for Google :D
<seele> are there any upstream contributors using kubuntu?
<blizzz> apachelogger: i can
<seele> we could recruit them to do some heavy lifting
<apachelogger> ruphy is
<nixternal> ya, but lets not recruit like google....they get recruits from fairs, give them high hopes, only to stomp on them by not hiring them as real employees because it is policy
<apachelogger> seele: upstream devs mostly switch distros very frequently
<Riddell> seele: as in KDE developers?  I saw loads of Kubuntu screens at akademy
<JontheEchidna> that's cool
<seele> Riddell: start tapping shoulders!
<seele> apachelogger: we only need them for 6 months at a time ;)
<Riddell> seele: what sort of lifting are you thinking of?
<apachelogger> nixternal: Hm, ok, would have been fun though :P
<apachelogger> seele: true
<seele> Riddell: something like printing that will eventually go upstream, filesharing, etc.
<blizzz> i'll have a talk at ubucon where i can inlcude this
<nixternal> apachelogger: I have seen a lot of people join the Ubuntu community thinking that some day they would get a job with Canonical...so you have to watch out
<neversfelde>  hard to find real devs out there, we thought about some kind of workshop, but the organizer left to opensolaris
<nixternal> lol
<nixternal> sounds like me...I was planning on the same thing here, but got a real job
<Riddell> seele: trouble with stuff like that is we're filling them in just because upstream developers don't care.  I got zero replies to the s-c-p review time in kdereview except someone from Mandriva
<nixternal> had to pay the bills
<apachelogger> nixternal: as long as they help out until they recognize that we are a 2nd class citizen I really don't care :P
<JontheEchidna> blueheaded stepchild, that's us!
<nixternal> hahah, nice
<nixternal> JontheEchidna: that's the winner right there
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: blue = drunken in german :P
<JontheEchidna> haha, awesome
<nixternal> that's definitely us!
<seele> Riddell: so printing was a bust, there has to be other things that we would benefit from
<apachelogger> yus
<apachelogger> Riddell: I think we can end the meeting. Nightrose is already half asleep ;-)
<Nightrose> hehe indeed
<Riddell> yes, I'm getting tired and I've run out of irn-bru
<Nightrose> i should go to bed
<Nightrose> need to get up in a few hours
<seele> irn-bru ew
<nixternal> seele: +1 with you there :)
<nixternal> I still can't understand the taste
<nixternal> we have a pub in chicago that has it
 * Nightrose hands cookies and milk to everyone as apachelogger promissed
<Nightrose> :P
<Nightrose> nini folks :)
<apachelogger> \o/
<nixternal> nite Nightrose
<Riddell> thanks all for the meeting, I can write up minutes tomorrow morning if nobody else volunteers
<seele> Riddell: you just volunteered ;P
<apachelogger> lol
<NCommander> argh, of course the meeting ends I didn't get my point out :-P
<apachelogger> oh
<apachelogger> NCommander: rush it in
<Riddell> NCommander: quick quick
<NCommander> Roughly speaking, I know that Nokia gave a bunch of KDE developers internet tablets, and I think intrepid+1 should look at seriously porting and supporting these devices
<NCommander> */exhale*
<nixternal> #endmeeting <- Riddell
<apachelogger> NCommander: KDE is working on that ;-)
<NCommander> apachelogger, I don't think they're porting Kubuntu ;-)
<apachelogger> NCommander: you should get in touch with aseigo, maybe he can get you a device.
<NCommander> I have to bootstrap the port first
<NCommander> :-)
<JontheEchidna> so apparently plasma is making an MID interface
<JontheEchidna> would be cool to have a Kubuntu MID edition
<Riddell> NCommander: I've no idea what the status of the ubuntu Arm plans are
<seele> Riddell: hum.. another thing we should look at for jaunty is how much config is outside system settings and what can be easily converted to kcm
<seele> ;-P
<JontheEchidna> userconfig, jockey, and printer are the ones off the top of my head
<JontheEchidna> :P
<seele> there are a bunch of access tools that are floating in kickoff
<NCommander> Riddell, it appears dead on arrival w.r.t. to the current porting ideas, so I just want to sit down and bootstrap the port :-)
<seele> we should aim to get all the extracurricular stuff out of kickoff and make it apps only
<Riddell> NCommander: I can offer ssh access if you need it :)
<NCommander> Riddell, can that include root access?
<NCommander> (I need to compile and install some serious system software)
<Riddell> NCommander: yeah although I'd need to work out how to enable that
<Riddell> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:57.
<apachelogger> that clock seems way off
<NCommander> Riddell, I have an ARM box which I can use for the basis of getting things started for this port, its more of a matter of finding possible buildds
<apachelogger> we started at 23 and end at 19?
<NCommander> apachelogger, file a bug
<seele> lol
 * apachelogger thinks the LHC opened a time rift!
<NCommander> Ack, next thing you'll know, the Debian project will merge with Ubuntu
<Riddell> 02:02 < JontheEchidna> if KOffice is ready for jaunty, that'd free up some disk space
<JontheEchidna> I hereby approve the above quote
<JontheEchidna> :P
 * apachelogger likes the above quote
<Daisuke_Ido> jaunty?  really?
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Release Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 17:00: QA Team
<pitti> hi
 * ScottK-palm is here via cel phone and will be present as connectivity and battery allow.
<cjwatson> good afternoon
<slangasek> 'morning
<dendrobates> 'ello
<rtg> I'm a pgraner lookalike
<cjwatson> pitti is a Keybuk lookalike, I assume
<heno> hello
<pitti> actually I'll be here regularly
<pitti> being the tech lead for our team
<pitti> (and still being release assistant)
<cjwatson> which means we're missing mobile, Kubuntu, X, and whoever else I forgot
<cjwatson> pitti: right, but in addition :-)
<pitti> I talked to Riddell an hour ago
<pitti> cjwatson: doing my best to act like two persons :)
<cjwatson> bryce,tjaalton: either of you here?
<tjaalton> cjwatson: yep
<slangasek> ok, let's go ahead and get started with the folks that are here
 * ScottK-palm can at least generally talk to Kubuntu if he doesn't make it.
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:04. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team
<slangasek> heno: go ahead, please?
<heno> hi
<heno> Thanks cjwatson and others for looking into the landscape issue
<heno> we've not confirmed that this has unblocked us, but will soon
<dendrobates> heno: I think you mean the cdimage building  bug  :)
<dendrobates> server iso built fine.
<heno> we are also concerned about bug 201786
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 201786 in seahorse "ssh Agent admitted failure to sign using the key" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201786
<Riddell> hi
<heno> dendrobates: well, slice it how you like :) It was a complex issue
<slangasek> how soon is 'soon'?  I guess we still have quite a bit of hardware certification to get results in on for 2.6.27 before we can make an informed decision on the intrepid kernel
<heno> slangasek: today we'll know if tests are running again
<pitti> heno: hm, can you reproduce this? I haven't had problems with seahorse any more in weeks (it was quite broken earlier indeed, thogh)
<heno> bdmurray: I think you flagged this ^
<slangasek> heno: that refers to the smoke testing, I guess?  not to hardware certification tests?
<heno> slangasek: I was talking about cert tests. manual smoke tests will resume monday
<slangasek> heno: ok, great
<sbeattie> heno: I think bdmurray is offline at the moment
<slangasek> bug #201786> who should follow up to find out if it's still reproducible?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 201786 in seahorse "ssh Agent admitted failure to sign using the key" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201786
<pitti> I think this is a bit convoluted
<pitti> the original report was for hardy
<pitti> then in early intrepid seahorse was completely broken
<pitti> and almost everyone's ssh broke
<pitti> but that was fixed weeks ago again
<pitti> so there might still be the original corner case, of course
<pitti> but hard to say without being able to reproduce
<slangasek> I don't see anything in the log that explains this as a corner case
<slangasek> pitti: can we assign this to you for follow-up since you're conversant with the issue?
<pitti> well, I have no clue at all about the original issue, I just know the bug and fix in intrepid, but sure
<pitti> I can more or less forward this to upstream and play relay
<slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to follow up on bug #201786
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to follow up on bug #201786
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 201786 in seahorse "ssh Agent admitted failure to sign using the key" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201786
<slangasek> heno: anything else?
<sbeattie> Hobbsee: ping? you commented on 201786, can you reproduce?
<pitti> oh, powerpc only perhaps
<heno> I guess there are some xorg dep problems blocking CDs now
<heno> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/intrepid/ubuntu/latest/livecd-20080912-i386.out
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/intrepid/ubuntu/latest/livecd-20080912-i386.out
<cjwatson> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/intrepid_probs.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/intrepid_probs.html
<cjwatson> I'll follow up on X
<cjwatson> (xorg deps that is)
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to follow up on xorg uninstallability
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to follow up on xorg uninstallability
<heno> ok, thanks
<cjwatson> probably just archive munging
<heno> that's it from QA
<slangasek> heno: ok, thanks :)
<sbeattie> cjwatson: what generates that?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team
<cjwatson> sbeattie: "britney", the tool used for Debian testing
<slangasek> pitti: hi
<pitti> spec status: should be reasonable for Alpha 6 and Beta
<pitti> we have 3 implemetned, and 8 beta available
<pitti> (do you want details?)
<pitti> two have to be deferred, since they need major upstream work which hasn't happened: better-login-speed and intrepid-menus-review
<slangasek> details> just the ones that are on the border
<pitti> so on that front we are pretty clear now and know what's going into intrepid
<slangasek> anything that's beta available that's still going to see large changes between now and alpha?
<pitti> the beta-avail ones are by and large implemented as far as spec descriptions go and just need some bug fixes
<pitti> no, at least not for the ones that affect ubuntu
<pitti> but I talked to Riddell and he said that the three kubuntu specs are done
<pitti> one thing wasn't implemented from kubuntu-intrepid-kde4-porting, but that was already deferered and put onto the "someday" roadmap
<pitti> general status:
<pitti> GNOME: upstream code freeze is next week, pretty stable now; compiz works again, worst gnome-session bugs have been ironed out; worst known regression/problems right now are the lack of session saving/restoring, and the still unclear status of the logout dialog. The latter is under discussion. No release critical bugs open at the moment, just a lot which we would like to fix by the release.
<pitti> one bug that affects us majorly is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mesa/+bug/262605
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 262605 in mesa "[intrepid] X locks up or crashes when screensaver activates" [High,Incomplete]
<pitti> but I think today's mesa upload fixed it
<pitti> the other is that usplash still doesn't work on current kernels on many machines
<pitti> I don't think anyone investigated it further in the recent weeks
<pitti> Langpacks: Uploaded to intrepid this week. They are still very incomplete, though, allegedly due to a lot of yet unapproved new templates in Rosetta. The distro-side machinery has been set up (cron jobs and the like) and works.
<cjwatson> I changed the translation focus to intrepid today, FWIW
<pitti> I'm currently discussing with Arne and jtv how to bring them into shape
<pitti> apparently rosetta requires a truckload of manual approving process
<pitti> so I discussed some heuristics which can automate this, which have proven to work well in the ages when langpack-o-matic imported the translation tarballs directly
<slangasek> usplash> I don't think I've seen an open targeted bug about this anymore?
<cjwatson> I thought usplash had improved with .27
<cjwatson> I mean the usplash/kernel situation
<pitti> slangasek: there is a bug, I'll look for it; gimme a second
<pitti> cjwatson: hm, not for me
<cjwatson> certainly my laptop went from never-working to only-a-bit-busted
<pitti> slangasek: please assing this as an action to me
<cjwatson> it still sometimes hangs and corrupts the display in the middle of usplash thouygh
<pitti> to investigate current situation and update the bug status accordingly
<slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to investigate current usplash situation and update bug status accordingly
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to investigate current usplash situation and update bug status accordingly
<pitti> cjwatson: good data point, thanks
<cjwatson> ok, is that all from desktop?
<slangasek> should bug #262605 be milestoned, if it's still present?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 262605 in mesa "[intrepid] X locks up or crashes when screensaver activates" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/262605
<pitti> slangasek: it should definitively get fixed by the release; maybe -beta?
<slangasek> ack
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to milestone bug #262605 for beta
<pitti> (it affects a lot of isntallations and is nasty enough to cause data loss)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to milestone bug #262605 for beta
<slangasek> pitti: anything else?
<pitti> slangasek: those were my bits; by and large it's looking well on the desktop front; anythign else I should mention/prepare in future meetings?
<cjwatson> I suggest having something pasteable for future meetings, just for speed
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile team
<pitti> ok
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile team
<slangasek> pitti: yeah, otherwise I assume you've covered everything that your team knows is urgent, which is important :)
<slangasek> s/important/what's &/
<slangasek> persia: hi, with us?
<persia> Latest images for the MID flavour are working.  Just finishing a kernel update to more closely align with the main kernel today, and we'll need a d-i update for that to work.
<cjwatson> (that's in progress)
<persia> We've still some adjustments to make on the default applications presented in the menus, but most of the rest should just be polish, rather than real changes.
<pitti> slangasek: #262605 bumped
<persia> cjwatson: I'll let you know as soon as we have a built kernel.
<cjwatson> let's by default not frob Launchpad during these meetings; it will speed things up
<slangasek> persia: so, no more freeze exceptions we should be dreading? :-)
<ogra> slangasek, most of our stuff is in universe :)
<persia> For the Mobile flavour, we have most of the bits working, although there's still some difficulties with the launcher, which may impact suitability, and there's as-yet no integration for image building, although some possible updates for livecd-rootfs would be required.
<persia> slangasek: I'm not expecting any freeze exceptions for anything in main.  There's some talk about switching from Thunderbird to modest, but I very much doubt it will come together in time.
<ogra> in max ten lines of change for livecd-rootfs (just copying the ubuntu-mod flavour and some adjustments)
<cjwatson> persia: ubiquity issues?
<ogra> *mid
<slangasek> LoÃ¯c writes in mail that dailies are "mostly working" after the switch to 2.6.27 and unionfs, with one aufs fix pending, and the installer is tha last bit to land
<persia> cjwatson: The only outstanding ubiquity issue I know to affect MID is the issue with partman not working with --automatic, and that can be worked around fairly easily by starting X differently.
<cjwatson> ok
<ogra> sladen, aufs might affect ubuntu as well though
<cjwatson> that's a generic bug BTW (as I mentioned to you earlier, but not to the group)
<ogra> err s/sladen/slangasek :)
<persia> cjwatson: Is it assigned, or does it need milestoning, or should we work around it?
<cjwatson> give me an action to milestone it
<cjwatson> and indeed generally fix the bugger
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to milestone partman not working with --automatic
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to milestone partman not working with --automatic
<slangasek> persia: anything else you guys urgently need from the rest of us?
<ogra> slangasek, bug 261873 ... but thats on my todo anyway
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 261873 in xf86-input-evtouch "make evtouch devices work with hal-input in intrepid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/261873
<persia> slangasek: Not precisely.  We'd like certain knowledge of the kernel to be used, and appreciate the freezes so we aren't surprised, but I think we're mostly self-contained at this point.
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to review bug #261873 and target
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to review bug #261873 and target
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 261873 in xf86-input-evtouch "make evtouch devices work with hal-input in intrepid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/261873
<slangasek> persia: understood, thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team
<rtg> standing in for pgraner
<rtg> My status is a bit sparse since I was coopted to join this meeting only an hour ago.
<rtg> I uploaded 2.6.27-3 (based on -rc6), LRM and linux-meta went in yesterday.
<rtg> As cjwatson pointed out, I neglected to mention the ABI bump to the installer mailing list.
<slangasek> rtg: don't know if you've seen the agenda, btw; I have it on-line at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2008-09-12
<rtg> slangasek: I've got it
<rtg> The last I heard from Leann it looked like were no show stopper regressions with 2.6.27
<rtg> I think bug #182489 requires jockey support.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 182489 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24 "Atheros wireless (AR5007) not working on various laptops, including the ASUS Eee PC" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/182489
<rtg> thats it for prepared status from me.
<slangasek> pitti: are you familiar with that report?  is jockey the right place to handle module blacklisting and such?
<pitti> I haven't seen the report
<pitti> jockey is the right place to *manually* blacklist modules if the user wants it
<rtg> its the same 'ol story, 2 drivers with the same PCI IDs.
<pitti> but it's not a general means to resolve situations where computers don't boot, or so
<rtg> in this case its ath5k and madwifi, so not boot essential
<pitti> in general we shouldn't leave the resolution of those conflicts to the user, but fix it by fixing the modalias overlaps to what we think is preferable
<rtg> then why provide madwifi at all in that case?
<slangasek> I'm not sure what that means; I thought any time you had more than one driver claiming a PCI ID the results were non-deterministic?
<rtg> not true, it always follows rules.
<slangasek> and I would think we want to provide the free driver as a fallback
<slangasek> rtg: pseudo-non-deterministic :)
<pitti> rtg: we can offer it as an alternative in jockey, of course; I have to read the complete bug, takes me a while
<rtg> in this case, the free driver _is_ the fallback (or 2nd choice)
<slangasek> pitti: can I action that and have you guys follow up off-line?
<pitti> yep
<rtg> slangasek: I've recently become very familiar with depmod :) its very deterministic.
<rtg> which is not to says that its correct.
<slangasek> [ACTION] pitti to follow up on bug #182489 from jockey side
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to follow up on bug #182489 from jockey side
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 182489 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24 "Atheros wireless (AR5007) not working on various laptops, including the ASUS Eee PC" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/182489
<slangasek> rtg: I notice that there are still a number of high-importance regressions against 2.6.27 listed at [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-2.6.27
<slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-2.6.27
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-2.6.27
<rtg> slayep - we'll be reviewing them as 2.6.27-3 percolates into the rest of the world.
<slangasek> rtg: are none of these considered show-stoppers, or are they all expected to be fixed?
<rtg> slagoing by what Leann told us a couple of days ago, there are no show stoppers.
<slangasek> WARNING: Intrepid might burn down MacBook Pro
<slangasek> heartwarming title
<rtg> slangasek: sounds interesting :0
<rtg> s/:0/:)/
<slangasek> ok; presumably if there are some that should be show-stoppers but don't look it, we'll find out about it via hardware cert
<rtg> right
<slangasek> ok - thanks for stepping in on short notice :)
<rtg> np
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team
<cjwatson> No milestoned bugs for us
<cjwatson> Targeted bugs:
<cjwatson>  247376: waiting for upstream
<cjwatson>  267682: -> X guys
<cjwatson>  openoffice.org bugs: I need to bug calc about these once he's no longer in the middle of a hurricane
<cjwatson>  206191: waiting for upstream
<cjwatson>  185311: non-Java problems still being reported, needs help! I suggested a crazy switch-at-runtime option but I'm not sure if it's viable yet
<cjwatson>  251640: now unreproducible, may be done
<cjwatson>  244413: bryce is looking into this
<cjwatson>  256054: not for this milestone but asac says it's still RC
<cjwatson> Future issues:
<cjwatson>  pulseaudio 0.9.12 on its way, still undergoing testing
<cjwatson>  mobile broadband wizard still due to land (for 3g-networking-intrepid), needs MIRs
<cjwatson>  Firefox branding changes (to allow an unbranded Firefox) underway
<cjwatson>  I think there are still a few Flash changes pending but need to check
<cjwatson>  usb-creator still needs some work to be main-worthy, in progress
<cjwatson>  system-cleaner likewise
<cjwatson> Future issues, not main:
<cjwatson>  experimental Python 3 packages expected in universe for this cycle
<cjwatson>  OpenOffice.org 3 may see parallel-installable packages, but very questionable for the default at this point as upstream have been slipping their deadlines
<cjwatson> tjaalton: 267682?
<cjwatson> the bug still seems ... confused
<tjaalton> cjwatson: yes..
<slangasek> so one thing I noticed on 267682... in hardy I was using a .Xmodmap file to get the media keys to work for me
<cjwatson> ...
<slangasek> when I don't need my laptop to run a meeting, I'm going to try restarting X without that, and see if it makes a difference
<cjwatson> that might explain a regression
<slangasek> don't know if that fits mdz's symptoms at all, though
<tjaalton> I think mixing media keys and acpi-related keys is what makes it confusing
<cjwatson> so sorry there's quite a long list of future issues, in general we've been running a bit behind this cycle :(
<mdz> slangasek: I'm sorry I haven't chimed in recently on that one; I've been flat out on an urgent customer situation
<slangasek> mdz: yep, understood
<mdz> slangasek: I don't have an .Xmodmap file, this is a pretty clean install
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> but I think all of the future issues are fairly well in progress
<tjaalton> and my laptop got it's mb replaced, so I haven't had time for anything else besides the couple of updates today
<slangasek> mdz: I can at least test without .Xmodmap, to see if that lets me converge on the behavior you're seeing
<slangasek> tjaalton: is it your impression that this bug needs to be pushed up the stack to other parts of the system besides X?
<tjaalton> slangasek: well, I'd need to know more about what role hal/dbus play in this
<tjaalton> slangasek: but yes, maybe :)
<cjwatson> anyway, that's all from my team
<slangasek> pitti: maybe you have some time outside the meeting to talk through with tjaalton how this works?
<slangasek> pitti: (I'd like to understand this as well)
<pitti> slangasek: right, so do I? no clue about it so far, and too much other stuff going on last week
<slangasek> cjwatson: is pulseaudio 0.9.12 the Last Piece?  I've noticed that the audio stack seems to have been in flux up 'til now
<asac> (fwiw, firefox branding split is in archive)
<slangasek> pitti: darn, I assumed you'd be the expert :)
<pitti> slangasek: on evdev and xorg input? unfortunately  not at all, I'm afraid :(
<cjwatson> slangasek: I *think* so
<slangasek> pitti: on hal's involvement
<cjwatson> assuming that .27 stays
<tjaalton> pitti: how hal and acpi work together
<pitti> tjaalton: I have a reasonable idea how pm-utils work, but acpi not so much; sladen and mjg59 have been the primary hackers on that so far, maybe they're online later
<slangasek> pitti, tjaalton: maybe you could talk through this all after the meeting on #-devel, or otherwise we can schedule a time?
<pitti> #u-devel ok for me; I can also run some tests then
<tjaalton> slangasek: I'm available, yes
<slangasek> [ACTION] tjaalton, pitti to discuss hal/acpi/evdev stack offline to get a handle on bug #267682
<MootBot> ACTION received:  tjaalton, pitti to discuss hal/acpi/evdev stack offline to get a handle on bug #267682
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 267682 in Ubuntu Intrepid "Hotkeys no longer working in Intrepid (evdev?)" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/267682
<slangasek> ok, thanks guys
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server team
<slangasek> dendrobates:
<dendrobates> I would like  to get bug #262264 fixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 262264 in likewise-open "Fails to join a domain: Unknown pam configuration" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/262264
<slangasek> yep, it's milestoned and I'm going to be poking at it today to confirm that the proposed resolution makes sense
<dendrobates> and if cjwatson could look at bug #269040 and it is a trivial fix that as well.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 269040 in ubuntu-cdimage "The tasksel task for 'Basic Ubuntu Server'  shows up on server iso" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/269040
<cjwatson> 269040 is not entirely trivial but is not impossible
<slangasek> should be targeted to release?
<cjwatson> yes, but it's on ubuntu-cdimage not Ubuntu. I'll fix up the state after the meeting
<slangasek> (and milestoned for beta?)
<slangasek> ah, right
<dendrobates> I think it is very confusing for users.
<cjwatson> we can commit to getting it done
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to target 269040 for intrepid
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to target 269040 for intrepid
<dendrobates> We also have the smartpm/landscape-client issues.
<pitti> dendrobates: btw, please talk to doko for MIRs in my absence next week
<pitti> but I'll still comment on the two MIR bugs
<dendrobates> smartpm has been split and we are trying to come up with a method to handle desktop upgrades.
<dendrobates> of landscape-client.
<dendrobates> we are unable to test the integration in the installer until we get this fixed.
<dendrobates> that is all.
<slangasek> mathiaz was mentioning just before the meeting a split of the landscape-client package; does that address this entirely, or is there more needing chnaged?
<dendrobates> it addresses the server, but does not address desktop updates.
<cjwatson> I think "under discussion" is the best description
<cjwatson> it will probably end up looking *something* like that ...
<slangasek> dendrobates: btw, I see there's an action item from two meetings back about getting a blurb for the Technical Overview from mathiaz for samba 3.2; is that still pending, or was it decided not to highlight it?
<dendrobates> still pending, he is right here. I'll talk to him about it.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> nagging accomplished :)
<slangasek> on landscape, I gather that it's sufficiently under discussion that there's not really anything actionable I can take away from it at this moment
<doko> pitti: I'll be away next week as well :-/
<pitti> oh, right
<slangasek> so, we'll continue the discussions about landscape (I'm sure!) and move on for now
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kubuntu
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu
<dendrobates> since we are done with the smartpm changes, can we finish the mir today?
<slangasek> Riddell pinged me out-of-band and asked to speak about Kubuntu status; I think we're agreed that in the future, this should be included in the Desktop team report ahead of time
<Riddell> Kubuntu is mostly in good shape, we need to do lots of upgrade testing which has been started and I'll do lots next week
<Riddell> the main problem is knetworkmanager doesn't work after an update of network-manager
<Riddell> and upstream is away for the next couple of weeks
<Riddell> so I don't know if it'll get fixed in time
<Riddell> asac was good enough to start a compile but I don't know if he's had time to look at what API changed need done
<slangasek> Riddell: "in time" meaning it may be unresolved for final?
<Riddell> slangasek: possibly, upstream works on suse's timetable not ours.  I think it'll be fixed by then but I can't say about beta at all
<slangasek> alright
<pitti> dendrobates: just commented on the smart mir
<slangasek> not a pleasant choice to make, but it seems fairly obvious to me that if knetworkmanager has to land after beta, we would take it rather than leaving kubuntu without it
<Riddell> I think I need to poke upstream again and try and get an answer about timings
<Riddell> it was working fine with the nm daemon that was tested before it went into the archive, but unfortunately it was updated without me knowing
<slangasek> cjwatson: is there a chance asac has room on his plate to help with knetworkmanager as a high priority for beta?
<cjwatson> we need the mobile broadband wizard and the remaining Flash changes (if any; as mentioned before, I need to check that) done first; after that, I believe so
<slangasek> Riddell: is there a bug number for this issue?
<Riddell> slangasek: yes, I don't have it to hand, I'll find it and milestone it
<slangasek> [ACTION] Riddell to find bug number for knetworkmanager breakage and milestone to beta, subscribing asac
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Riddell to find bug number for knetworkmanager breakage and milestone to beta, subscribing asac
<slangasek> ok?
<Riddell> yep
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> ScottK-palm2: you're off the hook for Kubuntu now; how about MOTU?
<ScottK-palm2> Hi.
<ScottK-palm2> Things seem pretty good.
<ScottK-palm2> Have a big stack of FFe asking to update Java packages so they can get to Universe
<slangasek> big, but diminishing? :)
<ScottK-palm2> It seems a pretty normal release.
<persia> ScottK: Those should stop coming after today.
<ScottK-palm2> Big, but need to looking at.
<ScottK-palm2> Great.
<ScottK-palm2> I think that's all of note.
<slangasek> have I managed to avoid miscommunicating on behalf of MOTU this time around?  Any notes I should include in future release team announcements?
<ScottK-palm2> I'll be on vacation for the next meeting.  I'll ask someone else to show up.
<ScottK-palm2> Let me have a look later. nothing that smacked me in the face.
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] general feature update
<MootBot> New Topic:  general feature update
<slangasek> I'm not sure we have anything to cover under this agenda item this late in the cycle, besides the freeze exception stuff already covered individually
<slangasek> no? moving on then
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Known regressions
<MootBot> New Topic:  Known regressions
<slangasek> [LINK] http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/intrepid/alpha5#Known Issues
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/intrepid/alpha5#Known Issues
<slangasek> most of these are already resolved or are in progress, so don't bear dwelling on
<cjwatson> 246412 is done
<slangasek> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/251640 is still outstanding; cjwatson mentioned it wasn't reproducible for him
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 251640 in debian-installer "Manual install fail when using encrypted LVM" [High,New]
<cjwatson> (hasn't been mentioned here)
<pitti> 256972 should be fixed now, I'l double-check
<slangasek> I'm going to try to reproduce 251640 myself, probably early next week
<slangasek> pitti: it is
<sbeattie> cjwatson: well, papered over. Nobody's tracked down what the actual compiler issue is yet
<pitti> shutdown/reboot menu works as well now
<cjwatson> sbeattie: right
<slangasek> the two items on there that are the biggest question mark for me are the ones that don't have associated bug numbers
<cjwatson> sbeattie: but, honestly, not sure it's important enough to spend the n days it would take to figure it out
<slangasek> InputDevice entries for the mouse and keyboard> is that something we need to clean up, or is this really a release notes documentation issue?
<slangasek> some keys might misbehave in X> I guess this is a good thing to highlight for the moment, hopefully we're getting all the feedback we need to resolve these all for final
<cjwatson> I'm not sure why we're still shipping those entries if they're ignored
<cjwatson> (except perhaps on upgrades)
<tjaalton>  they are ignored
<slangasek> cjwatson: AFAIK, they're only shipped on upgrades, not on new installs
<tjaalton> but new installs don't get them
<cjwatson> oh, right, in that case it's a release notes issue I think
<cjwatson> I don't think we can clean it up automatically since we can't assume that it matches /etc/default/console-setup
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to add to release notes that the /etc/X11/xorg.conf InputDevice sections are no longer used
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to add to release notes that the /etc/X11/xorg.conf InputDevice sections are no longer used
<cjwatson> and it was something people often customised
<slangasek> well, if they're ignored it doesn't matter what they contain either :)
<cjwatson> except confusion value ...
<slangasek> and that's everything from the caveat list that's still outstanding
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Hardware testing
<MootBot> New Topic:  Hardware testing
<slangasek> heno: anything more that needs to be said on this point?
<tjaalton> we can also add something to the header, that if people insist on using the InputDevice entries, they need to add 'Option "AutoAddDevices" "false"' to ServerFlags
<heno> slangasek: no from me
<slangasek> tjaalton: ah, thanks; I'll probably run the release notes wording past you, if that's ok
<slangasek> heno: ok, cheers
<slangasek> [TOPIC] ISO size
<MootBot> New Topic:  ISO size
<tjaalton> slangasek: sure thing
<heno> tests have been down for several days from various issues but we are setting up new runs now
<slangasek> we're not critical yet on size, but I have seen the sizes inching back up over the past week
<slangasek> actually, sizes are down again today since yesterday, possibly related to landscape-client unseeding
<pitti> ^ that shoould have brought ~ 2 MB
<slangasek> so we do need to be watchful of how much space we're eating up when adding new features - i386 still has some wiggle-room on alternate, but everything else is pretty close to the edge already
<slangasek> cjwatson: did Luke ever have a chance to test out the audio downsampling?  I hadn't heard that it landed, at least
<slangasek> (probably too late now for intrepid if it's not already done, but would be good to know whether that might give us back some space for jaunty)
<cjwatson> slangasek: I thought I remembered it landing a while back, but give me an action to check
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to check on whether desktop sound downsampling has landed
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to check on whether desktop sound downsampling has landed
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> unless anybody has some quick ideas about freeing up space on CDs, then, I think we're done
<cjwatson> 59 minutes
<cjwatson> err. 89 minutes
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:34.
<slangasek> thanks again, all!
<pitti> thanks everyone
<pitti> slangasek: you'll send the actions by mail, I assume? or shall we take notes?
<slangasek> yes, I'll send out the actions later today (so y'all in the wrong timezone will have them by Monday)
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 17 Sep 22:00: Platform Team
<Picklesworth> !ping
<ubottu> ping yourself ;-) really the diodes all down my left side are sore
<Picklesworth> !time
<ubottu> Information about using and setting your computer's clock on Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuTime - See https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/server/C/NTP.html for information on usage of the Network Time Protocol (NTP)
<solac> hi
<thorwil> hey dilomo, you made it ;)
<dilomo> yeah
<dilomo> :)
<Artir> motd
<kwwii> evening
<thorwil> evening
<kwwii> are we disturbing another meeting?
<kwwii> hope not :-)
<_MMA_> doesnt look like it.
<mikm> it's been quiet in here, so doesn't seem that way
<Artir> we always have ubuntu-meeting-art
<asac> damn ... i wanted some privacy here ... shame on you :-P
 * asac hides
<dilomo> good evening everyone
<Artir> is the sabdfl going to be here for the meeting?
<kwwii> no, he won't be attending that I know of
<kwwii> so, let's get this going
<kwwii> how many people are here from one of the community theme teams?
 * beuno waves
<beuno> I'm here just to watch  :)
<_MMA_> If Studio is one. :)
<dilomo> me, counts
<Artir> me 2
<_MMA_> And those themes are?
<kwwii> yeah, introduce yourself!
<kwwii> drum roll please
 * Picklesworth taps drums
 * Artir taps drums
<kwwii> ok, giving up on that, let's actually start
<_MMA_> Come on. If you do a theme, what is it so we can move along. ;)
 * mikm is a humble observer
 * Artir is a lurker
<_MMA_> kwwii: Go for it.
<kwwii> ok, item 1
<kwwii> default theme info
<kwwii> the theme is in need of major work, I know that
<kwwii> human, that is
<kwwii> I am going to be working on it next week, so while the theme teams are working on new stuff so will I :-)
<kwwii> any wallpaper ideas are welcome, we have had quite a few but nothing that says "default to me"
<Picklesworth> Will you be putting out a changelog or something of the sort, for Human?
<_MMA_> kwwii: Really, think me an ass for not looking. What engine is Human using now?
<kwwii> human is using murrine
<_MMA_> Ok.
<kwwii> but it might just end up using two engines
<_MMA_> hahahahah :P
<kwwii> after talking to cimi about it, it is apparently not the biggest issue
<dilomo> why two?
 * _MMA_ sends a big "I told ya so." Kens way.
<kwwii> so, yes, I will announce changes and put everything in my ppa
<kwwii> dilomo: for the progress bars, scrollbars and handles in human
<dilomo> ok
<kwwii> if anyone has any questions about the default artwork feel free to ask me
<_MMA_> kwwii: Did you find a link to the wallpapers on the wiki?
<Cimi> it won't affect stability, just the look
<_MMA_> DO we have anything to look at now?
<lucazade> kwwii: are you going to use clearlooks for these widgets?
<kwwii> _MMA_: no, I thought there was one but I couldn't find it anymore
<kwwii> lucazade: no murrine
 * _MMA_ pokes around.
<Artir> so overall the intrepid's humant theme will look like the old one but with murrina?
<kwwii> Artir: it might, it might not...that depends on what response and direction I get from sabdfl
<kwwii> that is what I am basically starting off with though, so to some extent yes
<kwwii> but that might change quiuckly
<kwwii> erm, spelling
<Picklesworth> You were mentioning somewhere that the line on top of the titlebar wasn't working. I fully agree with that thought :) Any thoughts for what will go instead?
<kwwii> Picklesworth: not sure at the moment, I wanted to take some time and play around with some other ideas
<_MMA_> kwwii: there's also Bug 269470 now.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 269470 in human-theme "Notification Windows are white-on-white in NewHuman" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/269470
<kwwii> Picklesworth: one thing I really liked about dust was the window buttons on the right (the gradient)
<kwwii> neat idea
<Cimi> kwwii, you know you can count on me for upstream modifications. of cours you should do mockups of something consinstent because human progress and scrolls will NEVER be merged in murrine
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I asked Ted to file that
<_MMA_> k
<kwwii> Cimi: actually, I spent several hours today working on ideas...I'll probably send you something later tonight
<Picklesworth> I was about to mention dust for managing to have a highlight on the top of a window that is noticeable and pretty, but done via borders
<kwwii> right, that is a good iea to try as well
<Cimi> ok, please use the submission form on murrine.cimitan.com
<kwwii> Cimi: ok, will do
<mikm> Picklesworth: I'm a fan of that as well
<kwwii> so, the next item is the community theme package
<kwwii> things have been coming along pretty well with this, I am putting out a new package every day or two
<kwwii> there will be another update by tomorrow morning with the very latest stuff
<kwwii> the newwave firefox issue was luckily solved, good work from dilomo  :-)
<dilomo> thanks
<kwwii> that should make things a lot easier in the future
<Cimi> update also murrine, i did an api break, people should test
<dilomo> let's hope Ibex will include the latest gnome
<Artir> wouldn't be better to include a custom firefox theme?
<Artir> to solve the issues
<kwwii> Cimi: yes, I will do that as well
<dilomo> so that New Wave can use light Main Menu
<Cimi> i'm for essentiality
<kwwii> Artir: if you really want to change things, then the best idea is to have a firefox skin
<Ken_V> Hello
<Cimi> not to add a theme for every app
<kwwii> which one could install seperately
<_MMA_> Artir: Only if it's user-installable or not part of the FF package.
<_MMA_> Ken_V! :)
<kwwii> the next time you started firefox it would open a pop-up offering the new skin
 * _MMA_ is Cory K. :)
<Ken_V> If I'm late, sorry, Just got off work (still in my uniform, bleh)
<kwwii> but with that solution you have to install it yourself, which means you have to know it exists, open and app, get root, etc
<thorwil> but who is Ken_V, it's such a cryptic nick!
<Cimi> ff3 finally got a good theme support
<Cimi> start learning how to do working themes!
<Artir> I mean making it part of the official theme and ship it by default
<Cimi> not do skins
<lucazade> yes ff3 doesn't need a skin nowadays
<dilomo> May I ask all the people here to help me with ideas about a new New Wave metacity theme
<Artir> was just and idea to solve the issues with background and text..
<_MMA_> kwwii: I'd like to ask how are the community themes being managed? Is it all just emails to kwwii with updates?
<kwwii> dilomo: what ideas did you have? maybe someone here is interested?
<kwwii> _MMA_: that and everything goes on the wiki
<kwwii> so I get it either from the wiki or per email
<dilomo> well I ask for ideas because a lot of people are complaining
<dilomo> of the metacity being too simple
<Cimi> new wave should reduce the shadow effect on the menubar and redesign notebooks IMO
<dilomo> and not 3d
<_MMA_> dilomo: How has that worked for you? Do you think managing things through BZR might be good?
<kwwii> I think it would be worthwhile for all the theme authors to discuss their problem, solutions, etc with one another, share the love so to speeak
<dilomo> I can upload there
<dilomo> but I cannot create debs
<dilomo> just don't know how
<Cimi> give sources
<_MMA_> dilomo: You din't need to to manage the code with BZR.
<Cimi> they are enough
<Artir> I posted a guide on the mailing list
<Artir> to create theme packages
<dilomo> I have uploaded mines
<_MMA_> dilomo: I mean you can just put whatever on BZR and kwwii can pull your changes there.
<kwwii> I take the gtk and the metacity stuff from dilomo's tar.gz and package it with the others
<kwwii> _MMA_: he does put it in bzr
<_MMA_> ahh..
<kwwii> it is just not in package form in his repo
<_MMA_> Thats what I asked. :)
<dilomo> pribably I can update a package containing the latest changes
<kwwii> and I have the community themes package in bzr/launchpad as well
<dilomo> probably*
<_MMA_> So who's here from Dust/Kith?
<Ken_V> Moi
<Ken_V> (Kith/Kin/Didymous)
<kwwii> Ken_V: atm, we have Kin in the community themes package
<kwwii> and although I would like to include Didymous I would rather wait until the metacity theme is done
<_MMA_> But the theme itself is not in BZR?
<Ken_V> Metacity is ready and already available. :)
<_MMA_> (just trying to get an overview)
<Ken_V> I even got a mod from a user of it improving the buttons, it will be updated after the meeting
<_MMA_> \m/
<dilomo> hey Ken your metacity is really cool btw
<Cimi> i would change button gradients in didimous
<dilomo> Ken_V*
<Ken_V> @_MMA_ Danikuu
<kwwii> Ken_V: the wireframe metacity stuff is done?
<lucazade> Ken_V: what about reduce saturation for bg_color?
<Ken_V> Sadly I never got anything good enough. The wireframe was always superimposed over black, so it didn't look good.
<Ken_V> And I don't like the idea of composite metacity yet.
<dilomo> Cimi: how do you thin I should change the menubar's dropshadow?
<kwwii> I would go for it, it seems like the one thing that sells it to me :-)
<Cimi> by reducing it a bit
<_MMA_> kwwii: Before you we move to Breathe, I have thoughts on Community theme package.
<Ken_V> @lucazade I'm waiting until it's technically ready for regular use until I start branched off the main theme. Including saturation
<dilomo> and what about the notebook?
<Ken_V> (Theres one more Didymous bug I want to fix, and I'll declair it "ready"
<lucazade> ken_V: ok
<Cimi> oh, that requires a redesign imo
<Cimi> i don't like its shadow in
<Ken_V> The Emerald is unfortunately using pixmaps with solid colours
<_MMA_> Why does anyone use Emerald id Compiz works with Metacity?
<dilomo> Cimi: but it looks nice in most of the apps
<Cimi> IMHO
<_MMA_> Is Emerald even being developed anymore?
<Artir> nope
<Ken_V> @_MMA_ you can do more with Emerald
<Cimi> means that it is my opinion
<Artir> compiz guys are developing a new one called Jasper
<dilomo> ok
<Cimi> you couldtake care or not
<Ken_V> Ooo, I need to look up Jasper
<Cimi> it's first of all your theme, not mine
<_MMA_> Yeah. I wouldnt continue Emerald theme development.
<Picklesworth> There are rumblings about redoing Metacity theming, at which point hopefully the compositor will become nicer for themers
<Picklesworth> maybe 2.28, if we're extra lucky?
<Artir> mm
<dilomo> oh by the way how can I make the metacity border of the inactive windows to be solid
<Artir> it seems that the guy who was making jasper http://dev.compiz-fusion.org/~kristian/
<dilomo> not transparent?
<Cimi> using gconftool-2
<Artir> tried to get it into hardt
<Artir> *hardy
<dilomo> I mean without extra setup
<Ken_V> How far into Development is Jasper?
<dilomo> just in the metacity file
<Artir> http://forum.compiz-fusion.org/showthread.php?t=6324
<Artir> not very adcanced
<Artir> but it does the job
<Artir> it can draw the decorations
<_MMA_> Ok. As this is getting of on tangents about theme specifics and what not, lets try to move that to the ML or normal channel later so we can continue with the agenda.
<Artir> and it can manage svg
<Artir> code --> git clone git://anongit.compiz-fusion.org/users/b0le/jasper
<Ken_V> I'll continue to investigate, for now lets get back on-rail
<_MMA_> kwwii: ?
<Ken_V> Thank you!
<kwwii> _MMA_: you had some thoughts on community?
<_MMA_> -Community theme package:  *Add wallpapers?
<Artir> :)
<dilomo> kwwii: ok go on
<_MMA_> kwwii: Well I was waiting 'till after the last 2 points.
<kwwii> yeah, however has a wallpaper which they would like to suggest for the package should add them to the wiki page and then send me an email
<_MMA_> Well, this point.
<Cimi> oh kwwii! i have a patch for GtkStatusIcon and gnome-panel... you know which patch
<Cimi> ;-)
<kwwii> I'll send and email to the list about this as well
<Picklesworth> I think it would help to have community themes and wallpapers in different packages, but have the wallpapers as a Recommended package with themes
<Picklesworth> that way the themes can safely suggest certain wallpapers :)
<lucazade> Cimi, i would like to know too :P
<kwwii> the thing is this: we are not promising to put any wallpapers in unless they are really good enough
<Picklesworth> but the themes package on its own would still be nice and tiny
<_MMA_> kwwii: Ok. So basically you're looking for suggestions.
<kwwii> I can put a wallpaper with a theme
<kwwii> that is not a big deal
<kwwii> it suggests the wallpaper when you change and that is it
<Artir> One that looks great is the Wall-light wallpaper
<Artir> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Wall-light
<_MMA_> Artir: There is no license for it.
<kwwii> Artir: yeah, and the person who made it will not respond about a license
<_MMA_> And it's origin is under contention.
<lucazade> hard-wood?
<Artir> there is no license?
<kwwii> my guess is that it is something that someone else made or from some product
<dilomo> well cant we make another one
<_MMA_> If one wanted, one could re-create it pretty easy.
<_MMA_> dilomo: ;)
<Artir> it wouln't be the same :(
<_MMA_> Oh well.
<Picklesworth> kwwii: you had a pretty interesting design with some red dots in a spiral shape. Did that get anywhere?
<dilomo> Yes it would be better :)
<kwwii> Picklesworth: yes, it is on the wiki
<Ken_V> which page?
<kwwii> I have another idea from a photo I took while on vacation
 * Picklesworth starts madly clicking through the wiki
 * Ken_V does the same
<kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/SimpleDarkIbex
<_MMA_> kwwii: I'll bring up my point when you're satisfied with the wallpaper chat.
<kwwii> well, again...anyone with wallpaper ideas please get them out there
<kwwii> and if anyone in any theme team needs help, ask on the mailing list, irc, or email me personaly
<Ken_V> Flogging my own horn, there's the orange wallpapers used in Didymous
<kwwii> and if anyone has any knowledge please help the others :-)
<dilomo> why don't we use pictures instead
<Artir> we would need warm pictures then
<dilomo> just a nice photograph of an Ibex
<kwwii> dilomo: because pictures are really hard to use as a default bg
<Picklesworth> I've been using the same timelapsed Dawn / Night / Day of Ubuntu for ages. Maybe I'm just biased / have an addictive personality, but I keep thinking it's a neat and unobtrusive way to keep things looking fresh
<kwwii> there is nothing saying you cannot use a picture, of course, it just has ot be perfect and of the right kind of stuff
<lucazade> it's hard to get focus with pictures
<dilomo> will blur them at the edges ;)
<kwwii> so anything else about wallpapers?
<kwwii> _MMA_: go for it
<Ken_V> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Kin%20Dust?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=kithkin_clean.png
<Artir> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Desktop_Background_Submissions
<_MMA_> Ok. I want to make it a public note that what goes in "community-themes" package will still be at Marks discretion. He will still have to approve what goes in.
<_MMA_> SO I have issue with the name.
<dilomo> Artir: Hibiscus Flower is cool
<_MMA_> (kinda)
<_MMA_> As the themes are community but what's included is not their decision.
<dilomo> _MMA_: go on
 * _MMA_ types slow. :P
 * Ken_V feels _MMA_'s pain
<gp[]> ih everyone
<_MMA_> In the end, it's whatever. I just want to avoid future misunderstandings.
<_MMA_> That just like default, Mark has to approve.
<_MMA_> I've said my peace. :)
<Ken_V> We could always use the Hardy wallpaper sans heron, although it's probably like wearing the same shirt 5 days in a row.
<kwwii> _MMA_: I can undersand your point
<_MMA_> Aston had some WIP Ibex stuff didn't he?
<dilomo> what about this one:
<dilomo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Desktop_Background_Submissions?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=ibex_horns_16.jpg
<kwwii> _MMA_: and I agree with you to some extent
<kwwii> hey guys, let's stop discussing the wallpaper like we are going to pic one now, ok?
<kwwii> s/pic/pick
<_MMA_> It's just a FYI to the people here. Just for the future.
<kwwii> let's get back to the usse at hand
<_MMA_> Anyone else have thoughts on what I said?
<kwwii> and _MMA_ is right that sabdfl wants Canonical to have a say in which community themes are included on the CD
<Ken_V> dilomo: I think that desktop feels a bit unpolished...
<thorwil> so it should be called suppressed community themes or censored community themes
<kwwii> he has had the package installed on his computer for a while, so hearing nothing is a good sign :-)
<kwwii> maybe I picked a bad name for it
<dilomo> Ken_V: it will polish over time
<Ken_V> True enough
<kwwii> I just picked a name, nothing was to be meant by it
<kwwii> but now it means a lot
<_MMA_> kwwii: As it's not yet in the archive, maybe there's still time to change?
<kwwii> I'd like to know how many people have a problem with the way things are now
<_MMA_> The name or the restriction on the package?
<gp[]> I arrived late, but have you considered these? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Kith_Intrepid#Wallpapers
<Picklesworth> Maybe community themes could do with a less technical descriptive name (eg: for GNOME App Install) like "diverse themes"?
<kwwii> _MMA_: either or
<kwwii> Picklesworth: yeah, extra-themes or such
<kwwii> to be honest, the name of the package doesn't matter
<kwwii> nobody sees that in the end anyway
<_MMA_> kwwii: I disagree.
<Artir> i agree
<_MMA_> Most users won't care. People here will.
<Artir> most people either leave the default theme or look for a better one on gnomelooks
<kwwii> _MMA_: well, yeah, ok
<dilomo> I just couldn't understand something
<Ken_V> How could we make the community themes more accessible then?
<_MMA_> Or rather, people who create the "community themes" *might* care.
<dilomo> are the community themes going to be installed but not default or
<kwwii> Ken_V: with a team PPA
<Picklesworth> The package itself in apt should definitely have the most technical name with least chance of overlap, but where mentioned for users (if it is), it should be shown in a way that describes the end product instead of the details of its development
<kwwii> Ken_V: and with people putting their packages in it when there is an update
<dilomo> they are not going to be installed but available in Synaptic
<kwwii> Picklesworth: agreed
<kwwii> I will rename the package
<Ken_V> Er, I mean on the user-side, such as button on the theme panel labelled "get more themes" (or along those lines)
<Ken_V> ahh
<Ken_V> n/m
<Ken_V> I'm thinking of something else
<_MMA_> Ok. I guess now is as good a time to may my intention of a community-artwork package known.
<kwwii> _MMA_: while we are at it, we might as well discuss leadership as well
<_MMA_> It will be completely an add-on package where the community decides what goes in it. Separate from anyone at Canonical or otherwise.
<kwwii> many people think that I am paid from canonical to lead the artwork community but that is not really true
<Ken_V> I for one bow to our new internet overlords. Oh, other leadership.
<gp[]> Ken_V: good idea
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sure. In a sec. :)
<kwwii> I work with the community, true and I am the voice of canonical to and from the community
<_MMA_> But in the end, kwwii's only real role should be a in-between.
<kwwii> but I do not necessarily have to lead the community in a formal sense
<Artir> and they don't like any theme made by the community?
<_MMA_> A foot in both worlds for communication.
<kwwii> there are parts of what I do which do lead the community but not as a president or leader as such
<Ken_V> Not even leadership is needed, so much as structure
<kwwii> Ken_V: right, that is a big part of it
<kwwii> it is almost like a babysitter I am sorry to say :-)
<_MMA_> Ken_V: I believe some leadership is needed. At least for awhile to get things moving.
<kwwii> so having a head-cat-herder is a good idea
<Artir> I've heard canonical is hiring more designers
<Ken_V> It's a bit redundant though, herding of the cats?
<_MMA_> Someone with the technical resources to get things done needs to be here for a bit. Now I'd like to do it, but I have to look at some things 1st.
<Ken_V> Maybe while an infrastructure is built, but once you have an overall team leader you're trying to organize sparse voulenteers.
<kwwii> yes, we are hiring more artists and in fact we just hired a person as team leader for our design and user experience team
<_MMA_> Mostly stepping down as the lead of Studio and what is needed around here.
<_MMA_> Ken_V: That's about the idea.
<dilomo> kwwii: can you share more info
<Artir> who is :)?
<kwwii> I will discuss the leadership issue with sabdfl and others and respond on the elist
<_MMA_> dilomo: About? He's nobody in the end to us.
<_MMA_> Unless it's just general curiosity.
<dilomo> _MMA_: about the user experience team and their future role
<Artir> so there are separate design and art teams?
<_MMA_> YEs.
<_MMA_> Artir: The art team as it is, does nothing in Ubuntu.
<Ken_V> When it comes to the Canonical-side team, is there anywhere we can actually see what they are doing?
<_MMA_> I mean, we're not responsible for the look of Ubuntu.
<_MMA_> Ken_V: Development releases?
<kwwii> Ken_V: I show quite a bit of what I am doing, until now I was the only person really doing anything
<_MMA_> kwwii: +1
<_MMA_> So far what kwwii has done has been quite public.
<Artir> yep
<kwwii> the team is being built, which is different from the team exists :-)
<Artir> but who is the new design team member?
<dilomo> kwwii: it's a start after all
<Ken_V> Understood, I just meant for the new designer(s)
<_MMA_> This is kinda getting off track.
<kwwii> yes, definitely
<_MMA_> I wanna move this along.
<kwwii> let's get to the last point and then be done
<Artir> ok
<_MMA_> So. To recapp.
<_MMA_> 1 sec.
<_MMA_> Anybody have issue with kwwii's package?
<_MMA_> Name/restrictions/whatever?
<dilomo> nope
<mikm> No
<_MMA_> Ok. I will still be moving forward with a package that can include things *we* decide.
<_MMA_> User added. Like kwwii's but expanded.
<_MMA_> I'm also guessing nobody is gonna challange me for any kinda leadership role and I can just do it. :)
<mikm> Will it be a superset of kwwii's package and function as a drop-in replacement, or will it be an addon to the default community-themes?
<_MMA_> mikm: One will get it from Synaptic.
<thorwil> _MMA_: only becasue i'm in a bad mood these days :)
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> thorwil: I still need your help. ;)
<_MMA_> Ok. Moving on.
<_MMA_> kwwii: You satisfied?
<kwwii> _MMA_: yepp, sounds good to me
<kwwii> so the last item is the breathe icons
<_MMA_> No. I added another.
<_MMA_> You missed that email I guess. :)
<kwwii> hehe, might have
<kwwii> take the mic
<_MMA_> Questioning what we do and our definition.
<Artir> and the "what mark wants to see" ?
<_MMA_> So, What do we do? What is the definition of this team?
<_MMA_> I'm looking fo opinions here. There has been some chat on the ML already ut lets chat.
<_MMA_> *but
<kwwii> I think that your email pretty much sums it up
<kwwii> I mean, it is not like nothing from the community will make it into the default
 * thorwil has to run
<kwwii> and it does not mean that people cannot propose things
<Picklesworth> Experimenting with concepts for Ubuntu's visual design, helping in the creation of themes that fit the Ubuntu desktop well :)
<kwwii> but there has to be a certain understanding behind that which is often lacking
<kwwii> the real purpose of the team is to create artwork in and around ubuntu
<kwwii> that does not mean the team is the ubuntu default artwork team and it was never said to be
<_MMA_> Which has been the popular misconception.
<kwwii> we even have it on the faq and still get questions
<Ken_V> Essentially a team that creates art for -potential- inclusion and concepting
<kwwii> Ken_V: right
<_MMA_> I think it shoul dbe heavily stressed to any new members we see pop up that we *do not* create the default art.
<_MMA_> It *can* come from us.
<Ken_V> Ubuntu community Art-Team: "We draw pretty pictures"
<Ken_V> :P
<_MMA_> But that's up to Canonical's discretion.
<kwwii> yes, we should make that clear
<_MMA_> Ken_V: ;)
<dilomo> Why not include this in the email all
<kwwii> and probably have another mailing list with only people who contribute to the dist to avoid the discussion on this email list
<dilomo> new users get when subscribed
<Ken_V> Is there a way to have users auto-emailed whent hey subscribe to the mailing list?
<dilomo> Ken_V: ;)
<_MMA_> Ok. Ill distill that since there's nobody else chiming in.
<Ken_V> With a message containing a link and other information about specifically what we do...
<Cimi> pasta or vegetables for dinner?
<kwwii> _MMA_: that is a good idea, to include it in the confirmation email
<_MMA_> Well new users get a welcome email.
<_MMA_> YEah. But is it a mailman default?
<_MMA_> Can it be changed for individual lists?
<kwwii> oh, that is another thing...the leader of the community can also have admin rights to the mailing list so that they can also erase spam twice a week
<_MMA_> gah.
<kwwii> _MMA_: yes, it can be changed
<_MMA_> I get enough with Studio. :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: Cool. Noted.
<kwwii> I don't know how to change it exactly but I know it can be done
<_MMA_> elmo or Ng should be able to help.
<kwwii> so let's get to the icons and get this over with
<_MMA_> Sure.
<Ken_V> kwwii +1
<_MMA_> Breathe Icon Set
<_MMA_> I think most have seen the emails.
<_MMA_> Anyone here have no clue?
<_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet https://launchpad.net/breathe-icon-set
<_MMA_> I haven't made a formal announcement yet.
<_MMA_> It's still really early and I want to have more of a base set up.
<Ken_V> I need to update that picture with the sharper folders...
<_MMA_> Ken_V: On the 1st page, I could be using an old image.
<Ken_V> No matter for now. One thing I really want to discuss is the colour pallet
<Ken_V> Specifically, I want to eliminate the use of black in the set, but want thoughts on this idea first
<_MMA_> Lemmie just explain how it works now.
 * Ken_V listens intently
 * Ken_V listens with eyes, apparently. Has some sort of ear diease
<_MMA_> We'll have 1 file to create a icon at various sizes.
<Ken_V> The template file
<_MMA_> One Canvas Workflow
<_MMA_> yep
<Ken_V> Already in use. :)
<_MMA_> Those will get uploaded to BZR and linked to via Launchpad.
<_MMA_> So the images yo usee here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
<_MMA_> Get updated when we update BZR.
<_MMA_> So one can see the progression at a glance.
<_MMA_> Or,
<_MMA_> A new member can say "I'd like to do this icon".
<_MMA_> Grab the SVG and submit via the ML for review.
<Ken_V> Sounds like a well laid-out plan.
<_MMA_> The review will be done by trusted members of our little community.
<Ken_V> One thing I would like to is a spec-sheet such as tango has so any reviewers know what to look for.
<dilomo> Can the wiki use some sort of dynamic background changing
<dilomo> so that the artists can compare the icons against different colors?
<_MMA_> Ken_V: Explain.
<_MMA_> dilomo: Not really. But there's that app that popped up on the wiki we could utilize.
<Ken_V> If we have a set of guidelines, then we all know what might be wrong or break the icon sets internal consistancy. Have some sort of review list so those errors can be easily spotted
<Ken_V> I can also program websites expediently.
 * Ken_V just slides that in there tastelessly
<_MMA_> Ken_V: Well as far as Tango goes, that just color/style guidelines.
<_MMA_> Naming is all I'm worried about.
<Ken_V> Ah, my concern is heavily on standards...
<_MMA_> Ken_V: As far as palette, I just don't know. Beyond some mix of Human/Oxygen atm.
<_MMA_> That could be a long chat. Best for the ML.
<Ken_V> Agreed.
<Ken_V> And I can't type that fast.
<_MMA_> Now as far as perspective, thorwil and I though tto just go with Oxygen for now, and fix where needed.
<_MMA_> kwwii has said there are perspective issues. So we can address them as we get to those icons.
<Ken_V> Examples?
<Artir> who did oxygen?
<_MMA_> But for the most part there's consistency.
<_MMA_> Ken_V: I know not. Maybe kwwii can.
<Ken_V> Either head-on or slight tilt facing down
<_MMA_> Artir: A mix of people. kwwii being one.
<Ken_V> correct?
<kwwii> Artir: I started the project, there are 4 main artists
<Artir> get those people on the team asap :)
<kwwii> hehe, I hired some of them years ago so that we could make oxygen
<kwwii> it was, to at least some extent a paid project
<Artir>  canonical have money and they want a good icon theme
<_MMA_> Ken_V: Part of what I will be doing in the coming weeks/months is putting Oxygen in BZR/wiki and we just start working on replacing. I could use help on this. Should be simple grunt work.
<Artir> so its possible
<Ken_V> I should have held out on Breathe then asked for a cheque. :P
<_MMA_> Artir: This effort is independent of Canonical.
<Ken_V> Glad to do it. I would like a hand in any guidelines though, if possible
<_MMA_> Ken_V: Sure.
<kwwii> Ken_V: I am going to take a whack at editing the folder some to see what I can come up with
<Ken_V> Do you have the SVG?
<_MMA_> Ken_V: Its on the wiki. :P
<Ken_V> I need to clue in. :P
<_MMA_> Ken_V: But, you did say you were also gonna refine. So, we need to sit down and get you versed in BZR.
<Ken_V> I can just drunkenly stumble though it, I figure things like that out easily enough.
<_MMA_> Ok so I've covered 4 points about Breathe.
<_MMA_> next
<_MMA_> "What Mark would *like* to see."
<kwwii> that is all, I think
<kwwii> ahhhh
<kwwii> right
<_MMA_> Oh. I did get 5 points.
<kwwii> well, there are certain parts of the human set that mark likes a lot
<Ken_V> He survived interrogation?
 * Ken_V breaks out interrogation room desk lamp
<kwwii> so, I will try to express them, perhaps also by editing the folder a bit to explain what I mean
<_MMA_> Now this part is dependant on *if* we want to attempt to be default.
<_MMA_> *If* we wanna work with him.
<Ken_V> Sounds iffy.
<_MMA_> I have no issue as long as what he wants doesn't mess with the style we decide on.
<kwwii> exactly, I am only offering information
<kwwii> nothing else
<_MMA_> Like high-gloss on 1 icon where the rest of the set is flat. Or something.
<Picklesworth> Nah, Mark has astoundingly good taste :)
<_MMA_> hahahah. Funny.
<Ken_V> Mark: "I'm thinking... Lime green with red"
<_MMA_> Ok. So since there's nothing more constructive. I think we're done.
<Picklesworth> (Well, he's the best dressed one at a lot of those conferences)
<Picklesworth> Oooh, here's something: I noticed some new sounds coming in from kwii's PPA! I really like the login and logout sounds. We lose a bit of the unusual edge to it, but on the other hand the sound effects are short and unobnoxious. And clean :)
<_MMA_> Kinda a sloppy overview of what's going on.
<Picklesworth> Check out /usr/share/sounds
<Ken_V> Will Marks stylings be on the mailing list, or will they be elsewhere?
<dilomo> but these sound are short and the login time is loooong
<_MMA_> By proxy.
<Picklesworth> We dont' want login to be like that prank video with the powerbook!
<Ken_V> kk
<dilomo> the we should make it fast
<dilomo> not wait 15+ sec
<_MMA_> I'll try to get this info on the ML ASAP. I need to put more things in place 1st. Should be soon.
<kwwii> there is an ubuntu-sounds package in my ppa with new sounds
<Picklesworth> There's some stuff going on with sound themes in GNOME, too, involving the Bango project on Freedesktop. It would be nice to have Ubuntu's sound theme completely on top of that! The idea there is that sound themes work more like icon themes, with things like dialog-caution and trash-empty being the actual sound files.
<kwwii> Picklesworth: indeed, that would be nice
<Picklesworth> Since Bango kicked off with a generous fellow's post on Ubuntu Forums, especially
<_MMA_> Ken_V: I know you have limited availability but can you strive to be responsive to emails on a daily basis? I think the icon effort will require it. A least for a bit.
<Ken_V> I can. Mostly availablity is limited to time of day.
<_MMA_> Sure.
<Ken_V> If you know military-style scheduling, then you have a rough idea of when I can do things.
<_MMA_> Maybe I can bring Troy back around. ;)
<Artir> the new sounds are like baby music XD
<_MMA_> Ok. I'm done. kwwii?
<Artir> altought they're better than the old sounds
<dilomo> Artir: definitely
<_MMA_> Ok. I'm gone.
<kwwii> thanks everyone
<kwwii> night all
<kwwii> have fun
<Ken_V> night
<dilomo> bye
<Ken_V> laters all
<Artir> bye
<ScheissDrogen> ompaul, whats wrong  ?
<ompaul> join #ubuntu-ops please
<ScheissDrogen> k
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-09-13
<Picklesworth> /join #ubuntu-art
<Picklesworth> oops :o
 * Picklesworth runs away quickly
<Hobbsee> slangasek: no, I can no longer reproduce 201786.
<slangasek> noted, though it looks like it was sbeattie who asked the question :-)
<Hobbsee> slangasek: yeah, i think so.  and pitti to follow up.
<Hobbsee> neither of whom are here
 * Hobbsee curses that screensaver lock bug.  Should have upgraded again last night.
#ubuntu-meeting 2008-09-14
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 17 Sep 22:00: Platform Team | 18 Sep 00:30: ubuntu-pa LoCo Team
<XioNoX> hi!
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Mozilla Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 17 Sep 22:00: Platform Team | 18 Sep 00:30: ubuntu-pa LoCo Team
<XioNoX> hi!
<Jazzva> hey XioNoX
<XioNoX> just on time ?
<Jazzva> yep, still didn't officially start
<Volans> Hi all
<asac> hi!
<Jazzva> hey, hey
<asac> i think gnomefreak and fta wont make it.
<asac> ok. agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Meetings
<asac> i pushed "firefox 2 archive removal" to top ;)
<asac> because mdke is blocked on it
<asac> mdke wants to cleanup ubuntu-docs and remove all those complicated alternatives
 * mdke nods
<asac> which where introduced initially to all localized homepages
<asac> s/where/were/
<mdke> I'm right that firefox doesn't use those alternatives anymore right?
<asac> mdke: yes. firefox without ubufox has the official mozilla homepage
<Volans> asac: actually in FF3 how the localized Start Pages are managed?
<asac> ubufox uses his own mechanism to detect the language
<mdke> and whether the user is online/offline
<asac> Volans: ubufox uses the preferred language and finds the right page automatically
<asac> note: this is only an issue for the "offline" page. the online page uses the same "preferred language" on the webserver side
<Volans> yes, I know
<Volans> so ubufox have the translated page itself or open the one provided by the ubuntu-doc package?
<asac> Volans: does this clarify a bit how it works?
<mdke> Volans: the latter
<asac> Volans: right. the code is http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~asac/ubufox/main/annotate/110?file_id=startpage.html-20080411000353-l3fxb4oqnnv18uwx-1
<Volans> ok, thanks
<mdke> ok, back to the agenda item - what are the issues over removing firefox-2?
<asac> 7-36
<asac> i think the only issue i can see would be that some extensions are not available
<asac> thats true for addons.mozilla.org, but what is more important here is that - afaik - we also have some extension packages
<asac> which then would need to be removed
<asac> Jazzva: do you know how many are left?
<Jazzva> I think there might be few of them... 2-3
<Jazzva> asac, I'll check them after the meeting
<asac> http://paste.ubuntu.com/46938/
<asac> thats the list of rdepends
<asac> ok.
<asac> so would be be ok in case there is really an extension that still doesnt have 3.0 support?
<Jazzva> huh?
<asac> can we decide whether we will remove firefox-2 without looking at the extension list?
<Jazzva> those that don't have ff-3.0 support would be removed. there are only 2 or 3 which don't support ff-3.0, iirc
<asac> or should we postpone decision based on what extension packages we find are not upgradable
<asac> Jazzva: right. maybe those even have new upstream version
<Jazzva> yep... I'll go through the list to see...
<Volans> asac: but removing FF2 means that a user cannot still install it via apt?
<asac> Volans: yes.
<asac> Volans: but its outdated and we wont be able to provide security support
<Volans> of course
<asac> ok. so firefox-2 will most likely be removed?
<Volans> in this case I think that the extension compatibility checks is not fundamental, is an "obsolete" version of a program
<asac> can we say that or does anyone object?
<Jazzva> fine with me...
<fta2> i agree (drop ff2)
<asac> good.
<mdke> yay
<asac> [ACTION] remove ffox 2 from archive as well as extensions that cannot be upgraded
<mdke> perhaps someone could poke me when that is done
<mdke> or nudge, whatever is preferred
<asac> mdke: do you have any deadline?
<mdke> asac: nope, although I wouldn't want to do anything too close to release, in case I break a path or something
<asac> mdke: in worst case i would suggest that you remove the alternatives. if people complain you can point them that mozillateam will remove that package anyway
<asac> mdke: so imo you can just go ahead. or do you see any problems with that?
<mdke> ah ok. If there will be no possible further upload of mozilla-firefox-locale-all, then I can remove the alternatives now
<asac> mdke: have you asked Riddell about konqueror?
<asac> mdke: right. those will be removed for sure
<mdke> asac: I tried konqueror, it does it's own thing. And I posted to -devel, but I might ask him too to be sure
<asac> mdke: right.
<asac> ok moving on?
<asac> [TOPIC] abrowser rdepends transition
<asac> abrowser has its own metapackage which basically means that packages that currently depend on firefox cannot be installed with abrowser
<asac> so what we need to do is to look at all rdepends of "firefox" package. and add a | abrowser there
<asac> firefox-3.0 rdepends should be fine though and dont need any action
<asac> fta: you think you have time to help here? e.g. uploading a batch of universe packages? should take like 2 minutes for each package - though there is always the risk that an upload might suddenly not build anymore ... but we would like to know about them anyway
<fta> agreed
<fta> asac, it's simpler than the other project so yes, i should able to help here
<fta> +be
<asac> fta: i think we could just go through the list and if we work together it should take 1h or so
<Volans> asac: I can help with some extensions if you want (like mine and others of needed)
<asac> fta: so when you think you have 1h time just ping me and we can upload everything
<fta> asac, oh, you want to do that manually ?
<asac> fta: well. i think it just takes 1h or even less
<fta> ok
<asac> not sure if we want to develop something
<asac> Volans: thats good. extensions need be updated too
<asac> most likely we could go through all branches and add firefox everywhere
<asac> err abrowser ;)
<fta> asac, I'll sure ping you when i have some time
<asac> [ACTION] asac and fta to add abrowser to all firefox rdepends and upload; everyone to help updating extension branches
<asac> [TOPIC] Mozilla Freeze Exceptions
<asac> is there anything we want to get in that needs a freeze exception?
<Volans> all those rebuilding in order to add abrowser need some exception?
<asac> Volans: no.
<fta> we discussed ff3.1 already, is it still a no-go ?
<asac> Volans: those are bugs ... not a feature so can be fixed all the time
<Volans> right
<asac> fta: not sure. my idea is to say that in case 3.1 beta is released before intrepid we should upload it
<fta> mozclient: i want to extend it a little bit so we can put project files inside packages instead of m-d
<asac> but i am open to other ideas ;)
<Jazzva> asac, will we upload extensions that have updates, if the version we currently have only support ff2?
<fta> it should help downstream
<asac> Jazzva: yes. we can surely provide exceptions for those
<asac> fta: thats ok. cant that even be sold as a bug?
<Jazzva> cool :)
<fta> asac, if someone files one, sure :)
<asac> fta: most likely the currently supported packages will still be maintained in moclient?
<asac> fta: ok. we can get kgoetz to file one i think
<asac> fta: but in the end i dont really mind if we have a bug or not
<Jazzva> asac, fta: I read something about wmmode being fixed in some newer ff release. did we upload that?
<asac> fta: its just that if we release it as 0.10.1 its a bug fix release ;)
<asac> Jazzva: whatis wmmode?
<asac> transparent (for plugins)?
<fta> asac, possible, i'll find a way to accommodate both (ie, files inside packages preferred over the ones in m-d)
<asac> fta: right. for me that sounds like a bug and definitly doesnt need an exception ... we should just try to keep the diff minimal - if possible at all
<asac> but i think the change shouldnt be intrusive
<Jazzva> asac, I think it's a windowless mode for flash (and maybe other plugins). Firefox had a bug with it, which caused a lot of crashing before, but now it should be fixed
<fta> Jazzva, it's fixed in 3.0.2 iirc
<Jazzva> ok, just wanted to check if we uploaded that fix...
<asac> Jazzva: are you using mozillateam firefox build?
<fta> so it should be in since yesterday
<Jazzva> asac, yes
<asac> that should be 3.0.2
<asac> fta: huh?
<asac> fta: did they commit to 3.0.2 ?
<XioNoX> The last build in ppa for hardy, don't work well with flash
<fta> didn't they ? i didn't check
<asac> i presumed that they were doing quality assurance ;)
<fta> ok, so it's still not in (oops)
<asac> fta: not sure. in case it landed in 3.0.3 we should try to cherry pick it
<asac> for sure
<Jazzva> asac, fta: http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/ 3rd blog post, that's where I read about it...
<XioNoX> npviewer.bin keep crashing
<asac> as 3.0.3 might be after intrepid and everyting that can mak eplugin crashes less likely is high-prio for us i think
<asac> XioNoX: on amd64?
<asac> XioNoX: that is libflashssupport which is still in ia32-libs ... -> that needs to be removed
<Jazzva> asac, fta: Also here... http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2008/07/addessing_wmode_crashes.html
<asac> [ACTION] file a bug about removing libflashssupport from ia32-libs
<fta> asac, no, it has been committed upstream before 3.0.2, so 3.0.2 should be fine, in fact, people already reported that the 3.0.2~cvs version in my ppa was ok
<asac> ^^ anyone wnats to do that?
<asac> fta: ok good.
<asac> fta: maybe thats why i dont see it here ;)
<asac> XioNoX: can you try to manually remove libflashsupport.so and see if the crashes become less regularly?
<Jazzva> asac, I can file a bug... that shouldn't be too much time-consuming... (exams)
<asac> ;)
<asac> Jazzva: thanks.
<Jazzva> np
<asac> ok ... i think we still can grant exceptions on demand.
<asac> fta: 3.1 in intrepid. you think we could keep it updated for 6 month? (e.g. stable support)
<asac> most likely people running that will upgrade to intrepid+1 anyway ... so saying that we provide updates for 6 month should be a good compromise
<asac> fta: alpha 2 was just released right?
<fta> the way i work now is to ppa build everything for intrepid and hardy so if someone agrees to test it, i can continue to build it for intrepid when it is released
<asac> fta: ok cool. i can also help in time you really dont have time
<Volans> asac: Alpha 2  19 August | Beta 1  Feature freeze. source: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox3.1/Schedule
<asac> so with that i would like to see 3.1 in intrepid ;)
<asac> fta: we should just take care that we get the branding right (e.g. use the branding upstream uses)
<asac> and dont suggest that its 3.1 final in the menu
<Volans> damn... that page was not updated after august 24, sorry
<asac> Volans: i think alpha2 was released last week or something
<asac> but i might be completely worng
<Volans> in the nightly builds I see 3.1b1pre
<fta> I still use "Minefield 3.1 Web browser" for the desktop file, but i wanted to jump to "Firefox 3.1" once b1 is out like we did for 3.0
<asac> hmm http://www.mozilla.org/projects/firefox/3.1a2/releasenotes/
<asac> fta: right. but alpha2 should be Shiretoko 3.1 Web browser i think
<fta> in fact, i remember upstream did that, ie start calling 3.0 firefox instead of granparadiso starting to b1
<asac> yep.
<asac> i think we should use whatever they use. and thats shiretoko i guess for alpha2
<fta> sure, fixed releases are call Shiretoko 3.1, hg snapshots are called Minefield
<fta> called
<asac> ah
<asac> ok
<asac> fta: but snapshots are always called minefields ... arent they?
<fta> today yes, it's just a flag
<asac> its just that b1 b2 and such are called "firefox" ;)
<asac> ok cool
<asac> fta: ok. then maybe upload the build that is supposed to go to intrepid and let me test. then we can just upload and hope that archive admin will except that we (the mozillateam) granted an exception for that ;)
<asac> [ACTION] fta and asac try to get 3.1 alpha2 into the archive
<asac> [ACTION] team report
<asac> we had one for the extension team done by Jazzva :) ... great!
<fta> alpha2, ok. should be easy. i guess we want it with abrowser-3.1 right, not as it was a few weeks ago in my branch ?
<asac> i would really like to write a complete team report. and do that regularly.
<Jazzva> asac, I should prepare one for august...
<asac> usually i face the problem that i dont know what was done
<fta> we may have SEAMONKEY_1_1_12_RELEASE late
<asac> and wonder if we could have a wiki page or even a bot in irc channel where we can add all small actions
<asac> we did
<asac> so we can better do a report at the end of the month
<fta> may as i'm not sure it's out yet or still in QA upstream
<Jazzva> asac, IRC bot would be cool... it's easier to say "action: something", than editing a wiki page :)
<asac> fta: true. but it doesnt require an exception because its also a security release
<asac> Jazzva: yeah "done: i did this" ;)
<asac> anyone knows a good bot?
<asac> or just an irssi perl script maybe?
<fta> grep :)
<Seveas> a small perlscript hooked to editmoin? :)
<Jazzva> it would be great if it could be done automatically, but i don't have an idea how to do that (collect all the information, if all the information is available)
<asac> Seveas: how would that work?
<Seveas> asac, not knowing irssi very well, I'd guess something like: script parses all lines, if it matches [action] oslt, it would add it to a wikipage via the editmoin tool
<asac> Jazzva: well. i think what a list of a) uploads, b) commits and c) DONE: together should give a good picture for the one drafting the team report
<asac> i think that it will need some manual editing and polishing anyway. its just that all the data would be in the right place
<asac> Seveas: ah ok.
<asac> so can we say that if you have done something (even its just a tiny task) just writing a short [DONE] ... line to the mozillateam channel would be ok?
<Seveas> asac, a post-commit hook using editmoin, and a simple cronjob using launchpadlib that extracts commits/uploads will complete that report ;)
<asac> Seveas: post-commit hook. how is that done in bzr?
<Jazzva> asac, also not to over-use done tag. we don't want very log month reports, right? :)
<asac> Jazzva: true.
<Jazzva> s/log/long/
<Seveas> asac, #bzr knows, I don't :)
<asac> Jazzva: i think DONE for commits and uploads shouldnt be done
<asac> only for things that cant be tracked otherwise
<asac> (e.g. like reworking wiki, etc.)
<Jazzva> mhm
<asac> commits and uploads should be gathered automatically ... so a done wouldnt really be needed
<asac> ok ... ill note
<asac> [ACTION] asac to write down how to get items into the monthly reports and send that to mailing list/wiki
<asac> i think i have enough ideas now how to do that ;)
<asac> if anyone else wants to draft this, feel free to high-jack that item from me ;)
<asac> ok ... i think we should skip the intrepid status for now
<asac> or is there anything more general about our state for intrepid that hasnt been covered above?
<asac> [TOPIC] check status of automatic update for extensions
<fta> i guess there's no need to discuss about chrome, there's nothing usable for us so far
<asac> Jazzva asked what the status auf the auto updates of extension branches is
<asac> fta: right. i think its not relevant for intrepid
<asac> fta: we should use PPAs until we get something usable
<fta> ok
<XioNoX> back
<Jazzva> yes... iirc, fta's check-extensions script is pretty much usable, we have written a process how to do that, so now we only need to get it working, right?
<asac> but we should bug jcastro about the chromium "master" project
<XioNoX> connexion problems :(
<asac> XioNoX: welcome back ;)
<asac> XioNoX: topic is [TOPIC] check status of automatic update for extensions
<XioNoX> ok, thx, I'll read the log later
<asac> Jazzva: i think we are pretty much stuck right now
<Jazzva> asac, stuck with?
<asac> Jazzva: stuck aka "we only have check-extensions"
<asac> and we have no plan what steps are next ;)
<asac> but i would like to change that
<fta> mostly my fault. I'm sorry, lack of time :(
<Jazzva> hmm, I think we have a plan :). download newer extensions, unpack, push to branch, notify maintainer :)
<asac> fta: thats ok. i think the idea was to write something quite powerful
<fta> yes
<asac> maybe we can find a less work intensive solution
<asac> what would be needed to get something useful?
<asac> Jazzva: right. but there are a few undefined variables in that game
<asac> 1. where do we configure branches that are auto-updated?
<Jazzva> branch names and how extension is packaged...
<asac> actually 1. where and how do we configure branches that are auto-updated?
<asac> 2. what upstreams do we support? xpi-med-(un)pack only?
<asac> 3. how do we notify maintainer about a pending merge (i think that would be the launchpad merge feature, but we need to find out how to do that from a script)
<asac> ok. so we have check-extensions
<asac> now we need a download script i gues
<asac> e.g. download xpi for extension A with version B
<asac> fta: we get the latest available version for extensions through check-extension right?
<Jazzva> yep... afaics, it should determine if it's packaged from xpi, or branched from cvs
<fta> asac, yes, those in amo
<asac> ok ... that means once we have the download script, we just need a high level script that goes through all xpi branches then downloads the latest xpi and uses med-xpi-unpack
<asac> and then would have a script we could run to auto update?
<asac> oh ... we also need a script to ask for merge
<asac> fta: have you looked at launchpad 2.0 rpc api?
 * asac wonders if they have a "merge request" operation
<fta> not deeply enough yet, i just read blog entries about it.
<asac> ok.
<fta> seems a WIP to me
<asac> [ACTION] write a script "download-xpi-from-amo <extension-name> <version>"
<asac> [ACTION] write a script "request merge <branch1> <branch2>"
<Volans> sorry, I have to go now, but I'm interested in the automatic update of extension task, I will read the log and I would like to help doing something
<fta> the 2nd a feature already in LP
<fta> +is
<asac> [ACTION] write a high level script that assembles check-extension, download-xpi-from-amo and request-merge to automatically update upstream branches for extension branches that use the med-xpi orig structure
<Jazzva> we also have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MozillaTeam/Extensions/LargeScaleMaintenance , we could use those ideas
<asac> fta: right. but we still need to programmatically trigger that feature i think
<Jazzva> (branch naming and stuff)
<fta> ok
<fta> should be trivial
<asac> Jazzva: yes. thats the document we should keep in mind when doing this
<asac> but imo we should rather try to do something incomplete than do nothing, because its too much work to do at one time
<Jazzva> i agree
<asac> anything else on this topic?
<Jazzva> i think we're done with it
<asac> great.
<asac> [TOPIC] anything else ;)
<asac> maybe one more announce: fta is MOTU now ;)
<fta> :)
<Jazzva> yay, fta :D
<fta> i have yet to upload something ;)
<asac> fta: yeah ;) ... lets do the abrowser transition ;)
<fta> sure
<asac> oh. i have one more thing. i think we should look over all extensions and see if they a) have been updated in this cycle at all or b) if they can be updated.
<asac> but i think that check-extension probably isnt enough?
<asac> fta: does check-extnesions already check against intrepid?
<Jazzva> asac, i can help with that too... i'll be totally free from 20-24 september
<fta> it does your current dist
<fta> Jazzva, lucky guy ;)
<asac> Jazzva: great. is the list on the wiki page more or less complete?
<asac> or are there still extensions in the archive that we dont track there?
<Jazzva> asac, more or less... I think there might be few more that aren't maintained in bzr, and not tracked on the wiki
<asac> ok
<asac> do we explicitly add them to that list (and hence making them MT maintained) or is that ok to leave them in the limbo until we hear from them (e.g. because people point to bugs et al)
<fta> most come from debian
<asac> i think having a complete list would be nice. but its not really high prio from what i can tell. especially because most of those not listed on that page come from debian
<Jazzva> well, I think we are still diverged from debian regarding extensions...
<Jazzva> So, I think most of them are listed there... we don't get that much extensions...
<Jazzva> asac, which reminds me... are we gonna get mozilla-devscripts to debian?
<asac> good point. someone should file a RFP ;) ... then we can upload it with that bug number in changelog
<Jazzva> great :)
<asac> [ACTION] file RFP for mozilla-devscripts and get it into debian archive
<fta> remember it's a native package
<asac> fta: is that a problem?
<asac> or do you mean that RFP is the wrong wording ;)?
<fta> if we need to tweak it for debian, then native is probably not good
<asac> [ACTION] asac to find out if initial uploads to debian strictly require a wnpp bug
<asac> fta: hmm. we can have a branch ... which usually should be the same i think
<asac> fta: we could handle debian as downstream
<asac> e.g. merge down
<fta> lol
<asac> fta: ok. could you bake an initial release of latest mozilla-devscripts with a debian1 version?
<asac> e.g. 0.10debian1
<asac> hmm
<fta> we have to blacklist it
<asac> fta: actually i think we need to use ubuntu1 ... otherwise it will get auto-synched ;)
<asac> [ACTION] blacklist mozilla-devscripts for auto-syncher/MoM
<fta> 0.10~debian1 ?
<asac> [ACTION] create debian branch with initial mozilla-devscript debian1 version
<asac> fta: i think we should use 0.10debian1
<fta> so debian is always behind ?
<asac> it would be similar to what we do with debian packages
<asac> when ubuntu is downstream
<fta>        apt | 0.7.14ubuntu6 | http://archive.ubuntu.com intrepid/main Sources
<asac> so imo the same logic should apply if debian is downstream
<asac> fta: but i dont mind. actually we could also maintain it in debian and synch it from there to ubuntu
<asac> fta: you can decide what you prefer
<fta> but with 0.10debian1, debian will be ahead of us, then the merge/sync bot needs to blacklist it
<asac> fta: right. thats what i mean. either we should use ubuntu1 i ubuntu or we should blacklist it
<asac> fta: maybe ~debian1 is also an option to consider
<asac> but i think we should either blacklist or maintain in debian
<fta> i prefer the blacklist option, as i'm only on the debian side ;)
<fta> -debian+ubuntu
<asac> ok
<asac> fta: we can add you as maintiner for the package in debian ... so you can directly upload there
<asac> but lets start in the way you suggested
<asac> ok, so the two actions above correctly reflect what we just discussed here right?
<fta> yes
<asac> 21:20 < asac> [ACTION] file RFP for mozilla-devscripts and get it into debian archive
<asac> < asac> [ACTION] asac to find out if initial uploads to debian strictly require a wnpp bug
<asac> < asac> [ACTION] blacklist mozilla-devscripts for auto-syncher/MoM
<asac>  < asac> [ACTION] create debian branch with initial mozilla-devscript debian1 version
<fta> ok
* ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 17 Sep 22:00: Platform Team | 18 Sep 00:30: ubuntu-pa LoCo Team | 18 Sep 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team
<asac> those are the four actions related to mozilla-devscripts ;)
<asac> ok ... anything else?
<asac> otherwise i guess ubottu just told me that the meeting is over ;)
<fta> fine with me, nothing more to add
<asac> Jazzva: XioNoX: Volans ?
<Jazzva> same here...
<asac> ok. thanks! anyone wants to write minutes or is that supposed to be me this time? ;)
<Jazzva> I can do it tomorrow, I think...
<XioNoX> asac, nothing to add, exept if you have an idea of what i can do
<Jazzva> see you in #ubuntu-mozillateam
<asac> XioNoX: we have plenty of actions in this meeting
<asac> we could look if anything suites you
<asac> but lets talk about that in -mozillateam
<asac> thanks all. nice meeting
<XioNoX> ok good
<fta> bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-09-07
<hfz> hi
<indus> hi
<indus> guys i need your help
<hyperair> wrong place. /join #ubuntu
<indus> for membership
<czajkowski> `/c
<indus> hi
<Pretto> @now
<delphiexile> hi everybody
<delphiexile> i've a pb , i lost all my karma in 2 seconds
<DKcross> delphiexile,  what?
<DKcross> delphiexile, why man?
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-09-08
<DKcross> jono, :)
<jono> hey DKcross :)
<DKcross> hey jono how are you?
<jono> DKcross, good thanks, you?
<DKcross> good :D
<DKcross> testing karmic koala :\
<DKcross> are you testing?
<indus> hi
<indus> need some help
<Daviey> indus: what with?
<indus> ubuntu membership
<indus> i am trying asia oceania region but i dont know how to contact them
<indus> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<indus> its not updated and dont list contact info
<Daviey> indus: they'll be here in 45 mins, if that helps? :)
<indus> oh really? super
<indus> why here? whats today? some meeting?
<Daviey> indus: "The next meeting is scheduled for 08-Sep-2009, 10:00 UTC and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting"
<czajkowski> indus: you still lost :)
<indus> czajkowski: lol yeah
<indus> hello
<czajkowski> this going on now for about 2 weeks,
<czajkowski> indus: did you contact any of the board members, popey gave you the email address
<indus> czajkowski: ya did 1,but no reply
<indus> czajkowski: so iam not sure if they will attend the meeting today here
<czajkowski> indus: unless the mail is waiting moderation I stil suggest contacting one of the board members and leave them an IRC message or email
<indus> leave an irc message hmm how do i do that
<czajkowski>  /msg nick bleugh
<czajkowski> indus: so find a board member on the list, and find user nick on the lp ac
<indus> czajkowski: i think i tried a few,but they dont seem to be in here at some time or other
<popey> indus: there is a link on that page which does have contact details
<indus> there is a melissa draper
<popey> the first link
<indus> wait
<popey> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania
<czajkowski> indus: that;s elky
<popey> that lists members of the team, which you can also click on
<popey> to find their irc nicknames, and potentially their email addresses too
 * Daviey notes that "Email: No contact email" should probably be resolved :)
<popey> not really
<popey> you can click the contact link and it will send to all members of the team
<Daviey> rly?
<popey> ya rly
<Daviey>     Contact this team's owner
<Daviey> Owner:
<Daviey>     Ubuntu Community Council
<popey> hm
<popey> thats suboptimal :)
<Daviey> exactly :)
<indus> team owner is mark shuttleworth so i dont want to disturb him
<popey> you dont need to
<popey> the members are listed as I said
<popey> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-asia-oceania/+members#active
<czajkowski> indus: do let us know how you get on, curious after 3 weeks of trying ;)
<czajkowski> fair duce to you
<popey> and to be fair...
<popey> 08:42:29 < indus> guys i need your help
<popey> 08:47:22 < hyperair> wrong place. /join #ubuntu
<popey> that wasn't exactly helpful
<hyperair> hmm?
<popey> nvm, the moment has passed
<indus> i messaged elky
<popey> cool
<indus> she is away
<indus> i try another maybe
<popey> although you could technically talk to any of the membership boards
<popey> try me :)
<indus> popey: hello ,i need help with membership
 * Daviey wonders if this conversation would be better suited elsewhere :)
<popey> if it's about asia team scheduling then they're best people to speak to, if it's a general membership question I can probably help
<popey> Daviey: hang on
<popey> lets find out what the question is first
<popey> indus: whats the specific details of your required help
<indus> popey: i want to become an ubuntu member
<popey> ok, great!
<popey> !member
<ubottu> Want to become an Ubuntu member? Look at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember
<popey> thats a good starting page, have you seen it before?
<indus> popey: i followed wiki , and thanks to czajkowski i added all formalities
<czajkowski> indus: you've done all the stuff last week we went through right, the coc, lp ac, and wiki. so you're just needed to sign up to a review board
<popey> ok, great
<popey> so the next step is to choose a board and add your name to their wiki page
<popey> then attend their meeting via irc
<indus> popey: also did
<popey> ok
<indus> popey: asia oceania'
<popey> so whats the question ? :)
<czajkowski> popey: he was trying that, but their pages hasnt been updated to know when the next meeting is on
<popey> the page says its in 30 mins
<indus> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania
<popey> The next meeting is scheduled for 08-Sep-2009, 10:00 UTC and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net.
<popey> its now 09:30 UTC
<indus> hmm interesting, it was updated now i believe
<indus> few hours before it wasnt
<indus> so will meeting be in here then?
<czajkowski> indus: so you're set :)
<indus> wow cool
<popey> it was updated yesterday
<popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/AsiaOceania?action=diff&rev2=170&rev1=169
<indus> popey: hmm well, persistence of vision happened to me i think
<popey> hehe
<popey> it happens
<indus> :) ya i was on that page and i kept seeing august 11
<popey> I tend to subscribe to pages I am interested in
<popey> then I get an email when they get updated
<popey> it's a useful feature of the wiki we use
<indus> so what do you folks do for work
<popey> this isn't really a "chat" channel as such. You might get more/better responses in one of the loco team channels
<indus> hmm i thought ill get to know the members
<indus> nvm
<popey> or indeed #ubuntu-locoteams where pretty much everyone who has spoken in the last hour or so hangs out :)
<indus> popey: but meeting will happen here?
<popey> yes
<indus> who keeps record or minutes of the meeting
<czajkowski> indus: the room is logged
<czajkowski> hmm dpm may have forgotten to change the topic in here since last week
<indus> ok has meeting begun?
<indus> its time isnt it
<ziroday> indus: not yet, you'll know when its started don't worry
<indus> its 10 utc
<indus> ok i wait
<amachu> persia: elky: lifeless: Hi
<indus> aah amachu
<indus> probably they are reviewing my membership :)
<indus> from wiki i mean
<amachu> persia, elky, lifeless: Hello
<indus> why does he keep quitting
<czajkowski> connection?
<indus> let me call him
<indus> hi
<amachu> indus, Hi
<amachu> we need a quorum to continue the meeting
<indus> ok
<amachu> persia, elky, lifeless: there?
<indus> so now what
<amachu> indus, We need four of us present to take up membership considerations
<amachu> indus, else we have to take it up in next meeting
<indus> so why arent anyone here then
<indus> shouldnt someone update on the wiki if they are not available
<indus> next meeting will be when then amachu
<amachu> fourth tuesday
<indus> hmm ok but can you be sure there will be at least 4 of you here?
<amachu> well, people of the board are from different countries, India, Australia, Japan
<indus> amachu also, what do i need to make my membership application stronger?
<amachu> and we cover a vast geography..
<ziroday> indus: you are aware that if you don't find it convenient to meet with the Asia/Oceania board you are free to request membership from any of the other two boards
<indus> ziroday: yes aware
<ziroday> indus: :)
<indus> ziroday: probably ill be trying that next
<amachu> indus, your wiki lack references to your claims
<indus> ziroday: just wanted to irritate the asia members first :D
<indus> amachu hmm ok
<indus> amachu wait
<amachu> indus, we would like to see more of your Ubuntu specific contributions than rest
<indus> amachu well , all of the workshops we do ,the focus is on ubuntu
<amachu> and some testimonials favouring your membership or people present here at the time of meeting to endorse your work
<indus> amachu and we distribute cds to all of them, and now, we are supporting mozilla service week with free ubuntu installs
<indus> maybe ill add ngoinabox site link to wiki?
<amachu> indus, not here, make it in the wiki, and turn back next time..
<indus> i was afraid of spam so i didnt
<czajkowski> Ngo in a box?
<indus> yeah
<indus> you know of it?
<amachu> we regret for the caused to you, time
<czajkowski> indus: pop into -locoteams or -ngo will you, meeting isn't going to take place in here
<amachu>  we regret for the inconvenience caused to you, this time
<indus> ya ok np
<indus> bye folks
<indus> amachu thanks
<amachu> indus, you are welcome :-)
<elky> oh crap, sorry. a friend was flying through and i forgot it was this tuesday :(
<lool> Hola
<lool> I didnt think Michael was on leave
<paulliu> hi
<lool> plars, ogra, dyfet: ping
<plars> yep, here
<ogra> moop
<bjf> here
<lool> Hey Brad
<dyfet> hi
<lool> njpatel: Hey!
<lool> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:03. The chair is lool.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<njpatel> hey hey
<lool> Crap the meeting link is out of date
<lool> Imagine https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2009/20090908 here
<StevenK> four-oh-four
<lool> I'll co NCommander's items
<lool> StevenK: Hence the need for your imagination   :)
<lool> GrueMaster isn't here eithre
<lool> dyfet: You had an action to get lxde-meta sponsored
<lool> But I understand that's blocked on the FFE?
<dyfet> Yes
<lool> Ok; that's all we had for last week
<lool> Moving to specs review
<lool> [topic] specs review
<MootBot> New Topic:  specs review
<lool> http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/karmic/report.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://piware.de/workitems/mobile/karmic/report.html
<lool> The graph looks better for various reasons
<lool> mobile-unr-karmic-applications > needs gruemaster to comment
<lool> StevenK: Do you know whether gwibber is going in desktop or not after all?
<StevenK> lool: I do not
<lool> bjf: mobile-karmic-marvell-desktop > are you aware of any work with respect to CONFIG_s which is still pending?
<lool> bjf: or are there any reported issues with the dove kernel in karmic?
<lool> ogra: Only an oem-config item remaining for this spec to be completed for karmic: mobile-arm-karmic-offline-installer-gui
<bjf> lol, no issues that I'm aware of, continue to look at CONFIG_s but at this point we are probably good
<ogra> yep
<lool> ogra: Could you get to that today so that we can mark it implemented?
<ogra> no
<bjf> lool, **
<lool> bjf: excellent thanks
<lool> bjf: Yeah it wasnt very funny so I figured it was for me
<ogra> i need a lot of test builds for that, its very time consuming
<lool> mobile-karmic-armel-toolchain > looking good; no big regressions except oo.o
<bjf> lool, 6am here, just woke up, can't type yet
<lool> ogra, dyfet: Did you notice any other regression in the ftbfs lists?
 * ogra ponders to defer the oem-config stuff in favor of qemu-arm-static
<lool> Or is oo.o the only package hit by the toolchain changes?
<ogra> eigen seems to have probs
<lool> ogra: new problems?
<ogra> not sure thats toolchain though
<ogra> nope
<lool> ok
<lool> StevenK: You were testing wubi with UNR but that failed
<lool> StevenK: Did that get fixed?
<ogra> eglibc ftbfs but doko preferred to care for that
<ogra> and gst-pliguns-good
<lool> Actually doko sent a list of work items on glibc
<dyfet> no either....
<ogra> *plugins
<lool> I'm happy to share it if some people have time to take care of some of them
<StevenK> lool: Not as I'm aware, I'll talk to evand about it
<lool> StevenK: Do we have a bug for the unr wubi issue?
<StevenK> lool: No, I don't think so
<lool> moblin remix > I just updated status, we asked for a FFE to allow merges into karmic
<lool> StevenK: Could you please file one asap?
<lool> lsb-compliance > seems to lack A5 update; need gruemaster to clarify
<lool> unr-translations > I've sent merge requests for all translated modules
<lool> plars: mobile-unr-karmic-compliance-autotesting > on track for A6?
<plars> lool: yes
<plars> just adding tests at this point
<lool> plars: There were some chats about updating test plans and getting coverage reports on execution of test cases for Ubuntu alphas; are the UNR and ARM testcases/test plans on http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/ already?
<lool> this was between mdz and qa + release teams IIRC
<ogra> plars, since you do a lot of checkbox stuff, did you ever test checkbox on babbage or dove ?
<plars> lool: I was unaware of that... testplans are on testcases.qa, individual tests are mostly going into checkbox
<lool> plars: Ok
<plars> ogra: yes, I do use checkbox on armel as well
<ogra> intresting, how does it work ?
<lool> plars: I think we want the test plans to be in very good shape for next alpha
<plars> except for some things
<plars> i.e. boot loader test, etc... obvious stuff
<ogra> given neither dove nor imx51 expose a pci bus
<lool> Cause it's going to be a big focus that we actually test each test case in full
<ogra> so i guess it wont find much HW
<lool> mobile-karmic-arm-cloud-builds > no progress, i suck  :-(
<plars> ogra: right, it would just miss some things like that in the report
<ogra> smoe things ? :)
<plars> pci
<ogra> like all hardware ? :)
<plars> usb should work
<ogra> right
<plars> disks, etc
<lool> Any other questions for spec review?
<lool> [topic] UNR status
<MootBot> New Topic:  UNR status
<lool> StevenK: I think we're pretty much up to date with seeds
<StevenK> Indeed
<lool> I just checked and didn't see any functional change since evo-couch
<lool> StevenK: I think you can readd some langpacks just like the desktop team did
<lool> we're at 680M
<lool> Hmm actually is 712730624 oversize?
<lool> njpatel: So 5 new tarballs released today IIUC
<lool> StevenK said he will pick them up
 * ogra wonders if we should bump armel to 1G ... we're still using .img there and thats unlikely to change any time soon
<njpatel> lool: yep, definitely by EOD
<ogra> so we could ship an extra ton of langs
<njpatel> lool: will mail you, steve and ubuntu-mobile as per usual
<lool> We want translations if possible since otherwise you'll have to reroll tarballs == pain
<lool> njpatel: Ok cool
<lool> ogra: Not sure, 700 M might be the actual limit
<ogra> not for .img
<lool> StevenK: Could you please check that and perhaps add langpacks
<ogra> i changed that weeks ago
<lool> ogra: oh for ARM, sure
<ogra> .img files are 1G
<lool> feel free
<ogra> will need some seed fiddling
<lool> I was discusing *UNR* status which is why I was confused
<StevenK> lool: I'll check tomorrow
<lool> StevenK: k thanks
<lool> Any other business related to UNR?
<lool> [topic] Ubuntu Moblin Remix
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Moblin Remix
<lool> (feel free to bring up anything I forget to cover and I'll reschedule it)
<lool> bfiller: Hey
<lool> bfiller: thanks for joining
<paulliu> OK. Today empathy update breaks the build and gnome-menu updates breaks moblin-menu
<lool> So with paulliu we had a plan to move stuff to karmic
<lool> But still waiting on FFE  :-(
<paulliu> I'll fix it tomorrow. Or the day after tomorrow. I have a session on FAE sprint tomorrow.
<bfiller> lool: what is FFE?
<lool> I'll poke motu-release at weekly release meeting if we dont get the FFE before that
<paulliu> Feature freeze Execption
<lool> bfiller: feature freeze exception
<bfiller> lool: thanks
<lool> for the addition of the moblin packages to karmic
<lool> bfiller: I think you wanted me to make the OEM moblin PPA public
<paulliu> For packages that cannot uploaded, I'll compile a list of patches and see which patches is *good* to go into karmic packages.
<lool> bfiller: But as I wrote in my mail, paulliu told me it had some non-distributable bits
<lool> like flash and what not
<bfiller> lool: flash is ok to be in public ppa, just can't be in the ubuntu repos because it's not open source
<lool> paulliu: Ok; I think we want some wiki page like the one for new packages
<lool> paulliu: With a list of patches added to each packages and a comment on go/no-go
<paulliu> lool: Yes, I'll write it in the same page.
<bfiller> lool, paulliu : was there anything else in the private ppa that worried you?
<lool> bfiller: Aha
<lool> bfiller: I think paulliu also mentionned non-free drivers
<paulliu> bfiller: broadcom drivers? Is it ok to open it?
<StevenK> lool: WRT Wubi bug, bug #426238 (already filed)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 426238 in wubi "ubuntu fails to boot after install." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/426238
<lool> StevenK: thanks
<paulliu> bfiller: I didn't find it in our kernel. Maybe we should send it to kernel team?
<bfiller> lool: right, bcmwl-kernel-source is what we are using and it's ok, it's in ubuntu, I'll remoe the the other broadcom package as no longer using it
<bfiller> paulliu: it's in restricted: http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?suite=default&section=all&arch=any&searchon=names&keywords=bcmwl-kernel-source\
<paulliu> bfiller: ok. Thanks.
<lool> [action] bfiller to remove bcmwl-kernel-source and give a quick check over the private PPA's contents
<MootBot> ACTION received:  bfiller to remove bcmwl-kernel-source and give a quick check over the private PPA's contents
<bfiller> paulliu: oops, ignore trailing slahs
<bfiller> slash
<lool> [action] lool to switch moblin p3a to public
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lool to switch moblin p3a to public
<lool> bfiller: We wanted you to check whether we could use the OEM tracker to compare PPA with karmic
<lool> bfiller: Does it turn out to be possible?
<bfiller> lool: the package for me to release is broadcom-wl, that is unused, bcmwl-kernel-sources will stay
<bfiller> lool: sorry, meant to remove
<lool> ok; cant edit the action but you'll know what to do :)
<bfiller> lool: I haven't check with Cody yet, will do this today
<lool> bfiller: Can you please ping me when PPA is ok to be made public?
<bfiller> lool: sure
<lool> bfiller: Ok; carrying over
<lool> Any other business with Moblin?
<lool> bfiller: Anybody else should be added to ~ubuntu-moblin?
<bfiller> lool: just fyi - the guys from Intel who have been working with OEM group are testing out u-m-r for karmic
<lool> bfiller: Any comments so far?
<bfiller> lool: I asked them to file bugs in the ~ubuntu-moblin project with issues they find
<lool> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-moblin/+members
<bfiller> lool: do you have to be a member to file bug? I don't believe you do but wanted to check
<lool> bfiller: (Project is ubuntu-moblin-remix I think)  thanks!
<lool> bfiller: you dont
<lool> bfiller: you're typically a member if you're interested in tracking bugs in UMR
<bfiller> lool: ok, no comments yet but expect some soon, they are very intersted in moblin compliance
<lool> that is, you'll receive bug mail for important moblin bugs
<lool> bfiller: We didnt do any effort in testing it yet but I guess we could ask Tobin to look into it
<bfiller> lool: haven't tried umr yet, does it boot into moblin ui yet?
<lool> Yes
<bfiller> lool: cool
<lool> Since 8 days or so
<bfiller> that's great, I will try it today
<lool> bfiller: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-moblin-remix/daily-live/current/ as usual
<lool> bfiller, paulliu: thanks
<lool> [topic] review of >= high bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  review of >= high bugs
<lool> canonical-mobile > none
<lool> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-armel
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-armel
<lool> ooo > ccheney asked upstream for help and will look into it since he didn't get any reply
<lool> I suggested using porter box and plars has setup remote access
<plars> yep, ready if/when he wants to use it
<lool> 422101 initramfs-tools > ogra?  It seems your initial debug was incomplete says the bgu?
<plars> probably a pretty slow option though
<lool> plars: I did setup my b2.5 for remote access now though, even if slow
<ogra> lool, yes, i will take care for it this week
<lool> 359049 udeb kernel filenames > I raised this for kernel sprint
<lool> bjf: This is for you and/or amitk to fix during sprint or earlier, but really easy
<lool> 391588 banshee > dyfet/ogra?
<ogra> dyfet ?
<bjf> lool, ack
<lool> 420447 sound on babbage > also kernel sprint
<lool> 423767 enable rt3070sta driver > in progress
<ogra> unusable it seems
<lool> 424400 mac address of usb nics > not reproducible; needs gruemaster to sort out
<dyfet> I dont have an update other than I was having trouble with debugging the native parts of mono and have yet to see the original issue reported, I hope to have something new on this though when I can test it in a live desktop rather than a xnest, though
<lool> dyfet: You dont have a native desktop yet?
<lool> I thought dove was working
<ogra> lool, i still suspect gruemasters strange USB KVM to be interfering here
<lool> And you have b2.5 too?
<dyfet> lool: I have the dove working with the live usb filesystem Friday, I havent setup an install yet
<lool> dyfet: And what about your 2.5?
<dyfet> 2.5 I have no video
<lool> ogra and I have video; you dont have any other screen to use with it?
<lool> You tried other res?
<dyfet> yes, I have, ogra said there was no analog signal for the dvi-vga adaptor
<lool> You dont have a DVI screen?
<lool> I mean digital?
<ogra> at least with my DVI->VGA cable i get nothing out of the thing
<lool> I wonder how much it would cost to fix that
<ogra> a cheapo DVI display shouldnt be to hard to expense i bet :)
<plars> right, I had to get a new monitor
<dyfet> I can get a dvi monitor today, but since dove is working, I was going to shift to that
<lool> dyfet: Can you please send me a quote for a basic DVI D screen in the US?  I'll see if davidm can allow the expense
<lool> dyfet: Well you need to do 2.5 testing too
<ogra> dove is very powerfull
<dyfet> true
<ogra> you likely dont want to do daily test installs on it
<ogra> but keep a persistent dev env on it
<lool> dyfet: Can you please raise blocking issue like this one to me?  We're really short of babbage hardware so any person with a board which doesn't do graphics testing is a pain
<dyfet> lool: sorry...okay
<lool> dyfet: Please send me an email with a quote and we'll try to sort it out ASAP
<plars> lool: hard to find cheap/small ones anymore, I got one off craigslist
<lool> dyfet: thanks
<lool> bestbuy has a 129 USD one
<lool> 20"
<lool> I think that's not too bad
<lool> It's like a SATA disk
<lool> anyway
<lool> 383240 ffmpeg neon opts > my bad, will get to it this week
<bjf> lool, dell outlet hase refurbished 17 inch for $89.00
<ogra> DVI capable ?
<ogra> thats cheap
 * plars got a 22" for $75
<lool> 385325 thunderbird/jaunty > poked asac and we researched the upstream moz bug; dunno if it's still on track but not critical
<plars> dvi and vga connector, no hdmi though
<lool> 420555 mxcfb crash > also scheduled for kernel sprint
<ogra> not as critical as it seems though
<lool> Any other armel bugs / stuff to cover?
<ogra> workaround in place
<lool> ~ubuntu-unr > no milestoned bugs
<ogra> pfft
<lool> plars: I find that suspicious ^  :)
<bjf> lool, ogra, dyfet, http://www.dell.com/us/en/dfh/monitor/monitor-dell-e1909wfp/pd.aspx?refid=monitor-dell-e1909wfp&s=dfh&cs=22
<plars> lool: was from craigslist, so it was not new
<lool> plars, njpatel: I dont want mdz raising critical bugs not on our radar next release meeting  ;-)
<bjf> lool, ogra, dyfet, that's $119
<dyfet> okay :)
<lool> plars: I mean the list of bugs
<ogra> bjf, perfect i think
<plars> lool: will spend some extra time reviewing this week
<lool> plars: Ok thanks
<lool> plars: I did some armel triage this morning so we'll be even   :-P
<lool> [link] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-moblin
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+bugs?field.subscriber=ubuntu-moblin
<lool> only the ffe
<lool> No other moblin / unr bugs to discuss?
<lool> ian_brasil: Are you with us?  :)
<ogra> not 100% related, but what happened to the lubuntu FFE discussion
<ogra> dyfet, ^^^
<ogra> i get you guys had a meeting on sun.
<dyfet> Well, there was concerns raised about how the team maintains the seed
<lool> ogra: I mentionned it during specs review but it might be good to track it in karmic + sub canonical-mobile
<ogra> dyfet, what was the outvome of the meeting
<dyfet> And the team did not want to change to existing release policies until everyone votes on it over the week
<ogra> i know whats written in the bug :P
<lool> dyfet: Is there a clear leadership subset of lxde developers in launchpad/ubuntu?
<dyfet> Yes
<lool> dyfet: Oh so a vote is in progress to sort that out?
<dyfet> Yes
<lool> Did it happen yet?
<ogra> it starts getting urgent slowly ...
<dyfet> lool, they want it to happen over the next 5 days
<ogra> FF was long agfo
<ogra> *ago
<dyfet> yea...
<lool> dyfet: Could you track the bug for karmic + sub canonical-mobile so that it shows in our weekly reviews?
<dyfet> okay
<lool> Any other mobile bugs to discuss?
<lool> armel unr moblin
<lool> [topic]     * Ubuntu MID - current status (Ian)
<MootBot> New Topic:      * Ubuntu MID - current status (Ian)
<lool> ian_brasil: Hola
<ogra> there is activity in MID ?
<ogra> wow
<lool> Current status of Ubuntu MID from my end: image is disabled since a long time, I dropped the image from trackers because it was raising red flags without any active maintenance on it
<ogra> yeah
<lool> At some point there was chat to move it into Mer's hands but that didn't really happen for unclear reasons
<ogra> and i havent heard from YoKoZar
<lool> If there's desire to revive it I'm happy to help getting things on track
<ogra> persia, do you know anything by chance ?
<lool> We dont have time to do actual development of a hildon based spin right now, but we can certainly help with integration/cdimage etc.
<ogra> well, people still ask in -mobile from time to time
<lool> Yes
<ogra> would be good to have an answer
<ogra> more than "we dont know"
<lool> So that's all I know of MID; I'm not devoting any time to it unless someone needs help with getting it in shape
<ogra> and given there was a community team that wanted to take it over, a clear statement would be nice
<lool> ian_brasil: Feel free to reschedule if you wanted to clarify stuff about MID
<lool> Ok folks, any other business?
<lool> We have to find something to say in these 9 minutes
<lool> Alpha 6 in 10 days
<ogra> lalalala
<lool> Thanks all!
<lool> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:52.
<ogra> doobedoobedoo
<ogra> thanks
<paulliu> Thanks.
<paulliu> What does "co" mean?
<ogra> carry over
<ogra> into next week
<ogra> or next $timeframe_of_work
<paulliu> ogra: I see. Thanks..:)
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:59. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<mdz> technical board meeting (regardless of what /topic says)
<Keybuk> hullo!
* kees changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Technical Board meeting
<kees> good morning :)
<mdz> cjwatson, pitti, ping
<pitti> hello all
<mdz> [TOPIC] Review actions from 2009-08-25
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review actions from 2009-08-25
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/August2009#Technical Board
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports/August2009#Technical Board
<cjwatson> hi
<mdz> cjwatson was to set up a couple of ACLs, which I believe he did
<cjwatson> yep,
<mdz> cjwatson, update on Debian technical committee?
<cjwatson> Bdale said:
<cjwatson> "I was sort of waiting to see if anyone else on the committee jumped in.
<cjwatson> Since they haven't, sign me up, and I'll personally make time at least
<cjwatson> long enough to help define what the role of a Debian representative
<cjwatson> should be and see how this works out...
<cjwatson> "
<cjwatson> ... so argh, we should reply
<cjwatson> sorry, I know this was on me but I haven't done it
<mdz> cjwatson, should we subscribe him to the list?
<mdz> or just invite him to the meetings?
<pitti> sorry for my ignorance, what was this about?
<cjwatson> let's do both
<mdz> [topic] Debian technical committee participation in techboard
<cjwatson> pitti: we agreed to invite a member of the Debian Technical Committee to sit on the TB
<MootBot> New Topic:  Debian technical committee participation in techboard
<mdz> [action] cjwatson to respond to Bdale, make arrangements for him to participate
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to respond to Bdale, make arrangements for him to participate
<kees> (pitti: ah, the URL mdz gave is sorted by newest-last... just found the Action list they're working from now ...)
<mdz> [topic] Java SRU policy
<MootBot> New Topic:  Java SRU policy
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#sun-java*
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#sun-java*
<mdz> this has been discussed on the mailing list a fair amount
<mdz> and revised
<kees> since I was involved in this pre-TB, what's the best way to involve myself in this discussion?  I have a somewhat biased opinion on it...
<mdz> kees, you can abstain from the vote if you think it's appropriate
<cjwatson> surely we can apply some useful testing in addition to just "it's a new microrelease"?
<mdz> but you should still speak up about it
<cjwatson> at least validation
<kees> mdz: ok
<cjwatson> I agree that it doesn't make sense to apply the full rigor
<pitti> doko said that there is a test suite (the Java Certification Kit thingy), but it's not public
<cjwatson> oh, I think that implicitly applies to that whole section actually
<cjwatson> pitti: yeah, it also takes man-days just to run it, it's a bit much
<mdz> I think it wouldn't hurt to make it explicit
<cjwatson> given that those weren't certified beforehand on Ubuntu anyway
<pitti> right, and nobody really knows how to do or where to get it :/
<cjwatson> we have it for openjdk
<cjwatson> but you can't get hold of it without a complicated process
<pitti> this basically sounds like a "take it or leave it" thing to me
<mdz> pitti, Canonical does have it and we've certified using it
<cjwatson> pitti: I agree, I just want to make sure we don't break the world by accident during an updatee
<cjwatson> -e
<kees> yeah, we can't really "reject" the new versions -- they are what they are, as provided by Sun
<cjwatson> right, but, for example, it's possible that new versions might need packaging tweaks that we miss
<kees> sure, smoke-testing is appropriate
<pitti> this is also why I really wouldn't like to see this being extended to intrepid/jaunty, just hardy
<cjwatson> yes, I agree
<pitti> in the last SRU, we had three or four people testing the update with some programs, the browser plugin, etc., and vouch that they work
 * kees puts on security-team hat
<pitti> but that can hardly cover the entire API, of course
<kees> a lot of people complain about the lagging sun-java* packages, even in intrepid/jaunty
<pitti> kees: but jaunty has openjdk?
<kees> since these packages are in non-LTS, I think we need to support them there.
<mdz> I think that's probably sufficient, given that we can presume the base JDK has been through the JCK test within Sun already
<kees> pitti: agreed, which is why I want to see sun-java* removed entirely from the archive for karmic
<mdz> we just need to know that the packaging hasn't horribly broken it
<pitti> kees: +1
<pitti> mdz: that should be covered by the basic usage testing, though
<mdz> kees, I'm pretty sure we agreed that was OK to remove, is there anything blocking it?
<pitti> I never let anything to -updates without at least someone saying "it still by and large works"
<mdz> pitti, yes, I'm agreeing
<kees> mdz: not sure, I saw sun-java5 vanish, but not sun-java6
<mdz> so we can add a blurb which explains the testing methodology which will be applied, based on what has been done for previous SRUs
<mdz> kees, it won't go away on its own ;-)
<kees> mdz: sure, but I think it was this meeting that was going to kick sun-java6 out officially.  sun-java5 was removed because support for it is ending.  a different reasoning.
<mdz> kees, please add that to the agenda directly after this so we don't forget it
<cjwatson> checkrdepends shows some dependencies on sun-java6, but I think that those are mostly non-default alternative dependencies; I need a slightly smarter script to be able to tell me that
<mdz> are there any other questions on the java SRU policy other than the testing issue, which I tihnk we've resolved?
<mdz> I'd like to put it to a vote
<pitti> if cjwatson: heh, currently running that, too; yes, the samples I did just have alternative dependencies
<kees> mdz: added
<mdz> ok
<pitti> some are wrong, like "Depends: sun-java6-jre | java1-runtime | java2-runtime"
<pitti> but not wrong enough to break
<mdz> [vote] proposed Java SRU policy at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#sun-java* as amended for appropriate smoke testing by pitti/kees
<MootBot> Please vote on:  proposed Java SRU policy at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#sun-java* as amended for appropriate smoke testing by pitti/kees.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> confirmed, I only see alternative deps
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
 * jdstrand is catching up
<pitti> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<kees> +0 (I'll abstain since this involves me rather directly)
<MootBot> Abstention received from kees. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<mdz> MootBot, poke
<mdz> argh, I'm lagging
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz> Keybuk, ?
<Keybuk> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 2 have abstained. Count is now 3
<mdz> #endvote
<Keybuk> abstaining, since I have no real clue of the technical implications
<mdz> or is it
<mdz> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 2 abstained. Total: 3
<pitti> I'll take the action of changing the page, and amend the smoke testing procedure
<mdz> [action] pitti to update SRU document per vote
<MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti to update SRU document per vote
<mdz> [topic] Removal of sun-java6 from Karmic
<MootBot> New Topic:  Removal of sun-java6 from Karmic
 * kees keeps security-team hat on
<pitti> I'd really like to get doko's opinion on that
<mdz> given that we're certifying openjdk-6, this seems like a no-brainer
<kees> I feel that since openjdk-6 passes JCK, there is no reason to carry sun-java6 in karmic.
<mdz> pitti, is he available?
<jdstrand> wrt sun-java5-- removing it was a no-brainer cause is is EOL by SUn in )ct
<pitti> mdz: not right now :(
<pitti> it seems like an obvious thing to me as well
<mdz> pitti, we can always reupload it ;-)
<kees> jdstrand: correct, and has been removed so that's all good.
<pitti> if someone really needs it, they can install it from upstream
<pitti> mdz: true :)
<pitti> but I'd really like to see it go
<kees> pitti: that has been my thinking as well.
<mdz> I've heard that alfresco (jaunty/partner) depends on it
<cjwatson> I like to confirm with the maintainer if possible for any removal, but I don't know of any obvious blockers
<jdstrand> someone from server should comment, but last I looked the ec2 tools needed sun-java6 and didn't work with openjds-6
<jdstrand> openjdk-6
<mdz> jdstrand, I don't think that is true anymore
<kees> jdstrand: which tools?  I've always used openjdk-6 for my ec2 work
<cjwatson> in the past there have been bits and pieces that didn't quite work with openjdk for some reason or another and I'd like to extract a quick status dump from doko's head
<pitti> jdstrand: not possible anyway, since ec2 is in main and sun-jdk in multiverse
<jdstrand> it might just be that amazon only certified on sun-java6 (I really don't know)
<mdz> ok, how about we vote on it, contingent on an ack from doko when he gets back?  then we don't need to wait for another meeting
<jdstrand> pitti: not ec2-- the amazon tools
<mdz> jdstrand, we have the euca2ools now as well
<pitti> jdstrand: ah, sorry, mixed up with euca
<jdstrand> it very well may have changed, I am not up on its status, but wanted to at least mention it
<mdz> [vote] remove sun-java6 from karmic in favor of openjdk-6, contingent on approval from the maintainer (Matthias Klose)
<MootBot> Please vote on:  remove sun-java6 from karmic in favor of openjdk-6, contingent on approval from the maintainer (Matthias Klose).
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<mdz> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from mdz. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<kees> +0 (boy I'm helpful today -- this is directly related to security-team work)
<cjwatson> openjdk bugs should be a lot more tractable than sun-java ones were, so even if there are some problems at the moment, I'm:
<MootBot> Abstention received from kees. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<Keybuk> +1 on the basis it's what doko wants
<pitti> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Keybuk. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<MootBot> +1 received from pitti. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<Keybuk> *that* it's...
<mdz> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 4
<cjwatson> (because given the TCK pass I think it's unlikely that the problems are fundamental)
<jdstrand> the SRU policy doesn't mention what happens when Sun EOLs a release. eg what will happen with sun-java5 in hardy after Oct?
<mdz> can someone take the action to check with doko?
<pitti> jdstrand: we are not bound to support it; it's multiverse, after all
<pitti> updates for it are a courtesy, not something people can rely on anyway
<kees> mdz: I will check with doko
<mdz> [action] kees to confirm removal of sun-java6 with doko
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kees to confirm removal of sun-java6 with doko
<jdstrand> pitti: yes, but should it be removed entirely?
<pitti> but if they are being used heavily, we could write it to ubuntu-announce@? or u-s-a@?
<mdz> [topic] Developer Application Board
<MootBot> New Topic:  Developer Application Board
<cjwatson> we can't remove packages from older releases, at least not without breaking some rules ...
<mdz> Keybuk, you're up
<jdstrand> pitti: I ask because there was a lot of rather heated discussion about this, and if nothing else, it should be documented
<Keybuk> the Developer Membership Board has been created
<Keybuk> the LP permissions changed
<cjwatson> (namely that Packages/Sources in the release pocket *never* change)
<Keybuk> the ML created
<Keybuk> and everybody subscribed
<pitti> jdstrand: u-d-a@ ?
<Keybuk> we're ready to switch over to it
<Keybuk> (and update documentation as we go)
<Keybuk> the MC should begin sending reviews to the DMB rather than the TB
<mdz> should it have a regular meeting?
<Keybuk> (and then we should open a discussion up about merging the MC and DMB later)
<Keybuk> I think that's up to the DMB to decide
<mdz> Keybuk, has the DMB been updated for the new TB?
<kees> (sorry for context-loss: who makes up the DMB?)
<jdstrand> pitti: u-d-a seems reasonable to me (and an update to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#sun-java* reflecting that?)
<Keybuk> when we discussed it over dinner, the idea was to try and reduce the requirement that people turn up for a time-limited meeting to answer questions
<mdz> kees, DMB has the same membership as TB for the moment
<pitti> jdstrand: seems fine
<kees> ok
<Keybuk> mdz: is has
<Keybuk> it has
 * jdstrand goes to update
<cjwatson> kees: two board memberships for the price of one
<kees> \o/
<mdz> Keybuk, so what remains to be done?
<mdz> has it been announced on -devel-announce?
<Keybuk> mdz: we need to use it
<Keybuk> we need to announce it
<mdz> does it matter?
<Keybuk> and we need to update the documentation :)
<Keybuk> I think an announcement as part of the TB minutes should suffice
<mdz> Keybuk, we should notify the MC explicitly to start sending applications elsewhere
<cjwatson> it's a governance change, I think -devel-announce would be appropriate
<mdz> that too
<mdz> [action] Keybuk to announce DMB to MC, -devel-announce and update documentation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Keybuk to announce DMB to MC, -devel-announce and update documentation
<mdz> anything else?
<Keybuk> if it's going to wait on me having time to do all that, it'll be waiting a while
 * Keybuk is supremely busy
<mdz> Keybuk, this is just finishing off the action you took to implement the DMB; if you want to hand it off, now is a good time
<Keybuk> cjwatson: you were already attacking the TB/membership documentation
<Keybuk> could you fix wrt DMB as you go?
<mdz> he already finished that I think
<cjwatson> yeah
<cjwatson> I think I took an action to but haven't yet
<cjwatson> (can you tell I've been running behind?)
<cjwatson> but I can certainly do it
<cjwatson> it's more or less a find-replace job after all
<mdz> I don't think we can foist this off on one of the new TB members, since it requires context from before
<mdz> cjwatson, thanks
<mdz> [action] cjwatson to announce DMB to MC, -devel announce and update documentation
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cjwatson to announce DMB to MC, -devel announce and update documentation
<mdz> [topic] Archive reorganisation (Colin Watson)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Archive reorganisation (Colin Watson)
<mdz> cjwatson, you're up
<cjwatson> right, so last time round I said I would aim to get us running on package sets by this meeting
<cjwatson> I didn't *quite* make it, but having tested on dogfood, I (a) discovered a couple of non-critical bugs (b) am ready to push the button
<mdz> "Action: cjwatson to do a final check with the Soyuz team on the details, and start pushing initial sets into LP"
<cjwatson> there's one thing I want to get signed off quickly before I push said button
<mdz> cjwatson, Keybuk, hmm, actually, reviewing the notes from the last meeting, jono was to update the documentation based on the announcements, so he can help with that
<mdz> (re: DMB)
<cjwatson> today, I did a validation pass on the permissions, to ensure that I wasn't granting anyone any new permissions *to start with* (I expect we'll do that as we go along)
<cjwatson> there were two failures on that validation pass; I think they're not a problem in practice, but I'd like the TB to check
<cjwatson> karmic-ubuntustudio/kino grants additional permissions to ubuntustudio-dev
<cjwatson> karmic-ubuntustudio/ttf-kochi grants additional permissions to ubuntustudio-dev
<cjwatson> i.e. those two packages are in main, and now ubuntustudio-dev will be able to upload them as well
<cjwatson> is that OK?
<jono> mdz, no worries
<mdz> ttf-kochi is used by openjdk-6
<pitti> cjwatson: ubuntustudio-dev -> kino seems very reasonable to me
<cjwatson> or rather whoever gets attached to ubuntustudio will be able to upload them
<pitti> cjwatson: I don't mind ttf-kochi personally, but I'm curious how that happens?
<mdz> I don't have a problem with either of those grants
<Keybuk> me neither
<cjwatson> err, I'd checked this for kino, let me quickly check for ttf-kochi
<kees> sounds fine
<cjwatson> usually it's because the package was previously in main for edubuntu or something
<cjwatson> I think it's a build-dependency of a font that's only otherwise in ubuntustudio
<pitti> ah, I remember
<pitti> we recently changed some fonts to a smaller default set
<pitti> I suppose that wasn't merged to -studio yet
<cjwatson> probably not
<cjwatson> second question, team ownerships for the package sets that have been defined so far
<cjwatson> this essentially amounts to delegations of upload privileges
<mdz> do you have a proposed list?
<mdz> cjwatson, ?
<cjwatson> I do, although I don't expect we'll be able to ratify everything at this meeting - many of the obvious teams have membership that goes well beyond ubuntu-{core-,}dev at the moment
<cjwatson> but:
<cjwatson>     'core': 'ubuntu-core-dev',
<cjwatson>     'desktop-core': 'ubuntu-core-dev',
<cjwatson>     'ubuntu-desktop': 'ubuntu-desktop',
<cjwatson>     'ubuntu-server': 'ubuntu-core-dev',
<cjwatson>     'kubuntu': 'kubuntu-ninjas',
<cjwatson>     'edubuntu': 'edubuntu-dev',
<cjwatson>     'xubuntu': 'xubuntu-dev',
<cjwatson>     'mobile': 'ubuntu-mobile-dev',
<cjwatson>     'unr': 'ubuntu-mobile-dev',
<cjwatson>     'mythbuntu': 'mythbuntu',
<cjwatson>     'ubuntustudio': 'ubuntustudio-dev',
<cjwatson> I couldn't see an obvious team for server
<cjwatson> (174 active members)
<cjwatson> there's ubuntu-server but it seemed like more of an "interested" team?
<pitti> yes, I know people there who don't have any idea about packaging
<mdz> cjwatson, I can bring that up at the server team meeting directly after this
<Keybuk> it seems to me that the right way to address this would be to have each team apply to own its set
<cjwatson> I'm not entirely sure about mythbuntu either
<Keybuk> describing its membership, and membership conditions
<Keybuk> we may want "-dev" teams to be created in some circumstances, for example
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I certainly intend to start by assigning them to ubuntu-core-dev or motu as appropriate
 * pitti invokes superm1 for mythbuntu
<Keybuk> it also occurs that the -dev teams should be owned/admin'd by the dmb, as well as any local administrators
<pitti> superm1: hi
<superm1> hi piti
<superm1> er pitti
<pitti> superm1: is the "mythbuntu" launchpad team a set of developers whom you'd trust to upload packages, or more like an "users"/"interested people" team?
<piti> failtab :)
<superm1> well they are developers, but I wouldn't trust them to all upload packages as of yet
<pitti> superm1: (context: archive reorg to package sets)
<superm1> i generally help review everything before it gets a push
<pitti> superm1: is there a smaller "core developers" team?
<superm1> not currently, it's just me doing uploads right now.  eventually some of them were going to apply for MOTU though
<mdz> cjwatson, what do we need to decide here in order to enable you to proceed?
<cjwatson> just a general note on package sets: there is no UI in LP that will tell you what package set a source package is in (I filed a bug, of course). I've bodged a query interface into edit_acl.py in lp:ubuntu-archive-tools, so you can use that to find out what's going on with any given package
<pitti> superm1: could we create a mythbuntu-dev team with the subset which should be allowed to upload?
<kees> perhaps creation mythbuntu-dev with just superm1 for now?
<kees> s/ion/e/
<superm1> that sounds fine to me for now
<cjwatson> mdz: the first question was my only blocker (I could have worked around it but it would have taken another pile of work). This team question is just a discussion I wanted to start
 * Daviey would be happy with that.
<cjwatson> I'm not blocked at the moment
<superm1> and as people seem ready to have upload rights for the stuff they care about, add them to the -dev team
<mdz> cjwatson, ok, maybe a good one to send to the mailing list, where we can copy in the relevant folks and handle them one by one
<mdz> can we move on?
<pitti> superm1: right; thanks for hopping in
<superm1> np
<cjwatson> right, we need to decide whether the -dev team is owned by the DMB or by superm1/whoever though (the latter implies delegation of the ability to grant upload rights)
<cjwatson> yes, we can move on
<mdz> [topic] community bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  community bugs
<mdz> zarro boogs found
<Keybuk> cjwatson: the latter in my mind is correct ;)
<mdz> [topic] select a chair for the next meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  select a chair for the next meeting
<cjwatson> Keybuk: probably, yes, but it's a noticeable step
<mdz> I nominate kees
<cjwatson> initial package sets are on production now :-)
<kees> woo, uhm, okay.  means mootbot familiarity, action-review, and agenda-following?
<mdz> kees, preparing the agenda, rounding up folks for the meeting as necessary, driving mootbot and the agenda, facilitating the meeting
<pitti> cjwatson: with mythbuntu disabled for now?
<kees> cool, I'm on it.
<mdz> great, thanks
<cjwatson> pitti: with motu attached to mythbuntu
<mdz> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, great
<mdz> anything else?
<mdz> 10 seconds
<mdz> [endmeeting]
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:48.
<pitti> 09:48? yay time zones
<pitti> thanks everyone
<cjwatson> http://paste.ubuntu.com/267330/
<kees> mootbot must be in central US
<kees> mdz: who sends minutes, updates TeamReport, etc?
<mdz> kees, the chair (me today, you next time)
<pitti> StableReleaseUpdates wiki page changed for sun-java* FYI
<mdz> kees, you should update the agenda for the enxt meeting
<kees> mdz: okay.  where do you think a good place would be to record the chair duties in the wiki (I want to make sure I don't drop anything)
<pitti> kees: If I were to look, I'd probably start with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoard
<kees> pitti: yeah, that's what I was thinking.
<kees> I'll adjust it.
<pitti> cjwatson: so in the future we could e. g. switch karmic-ubuntu-desktop to ~ubuntu-desktop from ~ubuntu-core-dev?
<cjwatson> yeah, that's the theory
<cjwatson> and then everything you see in './edit_acl.py -P karmic-ubuntu-desktop query' would become uploadable by karmic-ubuntu-desktop
<cjwatson> err, by ~ubuntu-desktop
<pitti> so far that team can commit to the bzr branches; I trust most of them to do unreviewed uploads
<cjwatson> desktop-core is actually a bit more interesting though
<cjwatson> the dependencies made the sets somewhat tricky to figure out ...
<cjwatson> you'll see what I mean if you look through the lists
<cjwatson> though I think there's actually a bug there too, I'll be continuing to refine
<pitti> what is desktop-core?
<mdz> kees, on the agenda page I'd think
<cjwatson> desktop-core is basically platform.karmic/desktop-common plus platform.karmic/supported-installer-desktop; but there's a bug in the generation which I just spotted which is pulling in rather more than that, looking at fixing that
<pitti> $ ./edit_acl.py -s gnome-panel query
<pitti> == All uploaders for package 'gnome-panel' ==
<pitti> (empty)
<pitti> hmm
<cjwatson> it doesn't follow the package set chain yet, so that's only telling you about people explicitly authorised to upload just gnome-panel
<cjwatson> some tool work is needed
<cjwatson> (we should move)
 * mathiaz waves
* kees changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to:  
<soren> o/
<kirkland_> o/
<nijaba> o/
* mathiaz changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team meeting
<Sam-I-Am> morning
<smoser> o/
<soren> Oh, are we intruding?
<alexm> o/
<cjwatson> nope
<Daviey> \o
<cjwatson> we were just having a follow-on discussion
<ivoks> o/
<mdz> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is mdz.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<niemeyer> Yo
<mdz> mathiaz, here?
<mathiaz> mdz: sure
<mdz> zul, here?
<zul> yep sorry
<mdz> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<mdz> has the agenda
<mdz> mathiaz, were there any actions from the previous meeting to review?
<mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20090901
<mdz> [topic] action items from 20090901
<MootBot> New Topic:  action items from 20090901
<mathiaz> Asterisk
<mathiaz> Daviey: ^^?>
<mdz> ACTION: Daviey to follow up with the Asterisk Debian maintainers about adopting dkms for dahdi
<mdz> ACTION: Daviey to call for testing of Asterisk 1.6
<Daviey> mdz: Been very quiet
<Daviey> i pinged debian-voip the other day, asking for more discussion.. but nobody has replied
<Daviey> the irc channel is often too quiet to get a discussion.
<mdz> Daviey, how about the CFT?
<Daviey> Apologies, CFT?
<mdz> call for testing
<mdz> you had an action to call for testing of asterisk 1.6 above
<Daviey> Oh, that hasn't been done yet.
<mdz> ACTION: mathiaz to produce a list of accepted bugs for packages related to the ubuntu-server team.
<mathiaz> mdz: on my todo list
<mdz> ok
<mdz> [topic] Review status of projects for the current release
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review status of projects for the current release
<mdz> so I'd like to sync up across the board on 9.10 projects
<mdz> the list on the agenda is not 100% complete, and doesn't necessarily map 1:1 to specs, but I think it will help us cover the territory
<mdz> [topic] UEC images (smoser)
<MootBot> New Topic:  UEC images (smoser)
<smoser> - want to release hardy refresh (ideally this week, maybe next)
<smoser> - add more detail to Refresh Policy, send to ubuntu-devel ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting )
<smoser> - update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/Publishing with better instructions (and provide tools for all of it if possible)
<smoser> - go through and triage bugs and tag which ones for alpha 6 (will do that today)
<smoser> - open bug and implement kernel/initrd publishing to uec-images
<mdz> smoser, how do we keep track of which bugs affect the UEC images presently?
<smoser> i dont know that there is a way specifically for euc images
<mdz> ok, I'd like to fix that straight away
<mdz> can we agree on a tag to use now?
<smoser> for ec2 (whihc ideally is identical) we mark them as affecting the ubuntu-on-ec2 project
<mdz> we should use a project for this purpose only if it is important to track the status separately in each place
<niemeyer> mdz, smoser: We have to create a process to integrate released images in the image store as wlel
<smoser> regarding a tag, i dont think i have enough launchpad experience to say.  ttx and soren didn't want tag (i thought)
<mdz> soren, ?
<soren> I would have preferred if there was another way, but if not, a tag is fine.
<smoser> i think the main reason is that it is harder to tell someone to open a bug and add a tag. easier to say "open against this project"
<mdz> smoser, you can do that with a +filebug URL which automatically adds the tag
<mdz> smoser, we can also set it up so that running ubuntu-bug within a running instance does the right thing (like for UNR and the ubuntu-unr tag)
<mdz> it's important that we get to a point where we can ask Launchpad for all of the relevant bugs in one report so that we know where we stand
<mdz> tags are the simplest way to do that at the moment, I think
<smoser> mdz, i'm generally fine with whatever is the launchpad-best-practice for doing things.  and yes, i'd like to get ubuntu-bug working, and provide a apport hook to collect data also
<mdz> ok, I suggest the tag "uec-images"
<mdz> which matches the download URL and should be reasonably unique
<soren> Fine with me.
<mdz> [action] smoser to tag existing UEC image bugs with "uec-images"
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to tag existing UEC image bugs with "uec-images"
<smoser> can-do
<mdz> [action] mdz to follow up on ubuntu-bug/apport for uec images
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to follow up on ubuntu-bug/apport for uec images
<mdz> [topic] EC2 AMIs (smoser)
<MootBot> New Topic:  EC2 AMIs (smoser)
<mdz> presumably all of the UEC stuff applies here as well, but since there are EC2-specific bits, I thought it would be useful to cover it separately
<mdz> I sent out a todo list for EC2 for alpha 6 last week
<mdz>  * Add signed MD5SUMS [Steve?]
<mdz>  * Add manifest file for each image, including both the package versions
<mdz>    inside the image (like the livefs does) and the version numbers of the
<mdz>    relevant build tools (such as vmbuilder)
<mdz>  * Automate publishing of AMIs to EC2 [Scott?]
<mdz>  * Automate updating ec2-version-query [Soren?]
<mdz>  * Publish ec2-version-query in a more appropriate place [Soren?]
<mdz>  * Ensure inclusion of relevant news in release notes [Eric?]
<mdz> are any of these done already?
<smoser> well, MD5SUMs is written in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEC/Images/Publishing
<soren> mdz: "Automate updating ec2-version-query" /was/ done, but given Steve's feedback on directory structure, I'll have to rework that.
<smoser> but we should make the script that builds them do that, so they're automatically there for all nightlys
<mdz> smoser, do you have the access rights to make the changes to the scripts?
<smoser> i dont knwo if i can push to that bzr branch or not. soren ?
<smoser> it is something that i need to be able to do, so we'll get that figured out
<soren> smoser: I think you can.
<smoser> if not, i'll bother soren
<soren> smoser: If not, let's fix that today.
<soren> smoser: (I believe the ubuntu-on-ec2 team owns it.)
<mdz> [action] soren to ensure that smoser can update the UEC publishing scripts
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren to ensure that smoser can update the UEC publishing scripts
<mdz> [action] smoser to add MD5SUMs for UEC images
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to add MD5SUMs for UEC images
<mdz> [action] soren to add manifest files for UEC images
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren to add manifest files for UEC images
<mdz> smoser, is automatic publishing to EC2 doable for alpha 6?
<smoser> maybe..
<mdz> I understand there's likely some IS work involved here, so we should at least get the ball rolling in RT
<soren> heh :)
<smoser> i absolutely want to improve it over what is there now, but fully automated might not make it.
<mdz> [action] smoser to open dialog with IS about automated publishing to EC2 and agree on a plan
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to open dialog with IS about automated publishing to EC2 and agree on a plan
<mdz> smoser, sound achievable for the coming week?
<niemeyer> mdz, smoser: We have to include the image store in these discussions too
<smoser> to open a dialog, yes.  we dont 100% *need* anything changed, since we can just start an ec2 image that pulls from euc-images rather than pushing from data center to ec2
<mdz> niemeyer, I think that's a separate discussion; we hadn't talked about putting dailies or alphas into the image store
<smoser> ie, without any IS changes, it can still be automated.
<mdz> smoser, I meant the "agree a plan" bit ;-)
<mdz> [action] soren to automate updating of ec2-version-query
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren to automate updating of ec2-version-query
<niemeyer> mdz: Oh, sorry, I thought it was about what to do in general
<mdz> niemeyer, this is about the release engineering process for the UEC images, what happens when we want to publish a new build
<mdz> soren, have you agreed with slangasek where to publish ec2-version-query?
<niemeyer> mdz: Ok, I guess the image store is a subset of this discussion then
<mdz> the thread went quiet over the US holiday I think
<soren> mdz: No.
<soren> mdz: It did. My fault, though, so not related to the holidays :)
<mdz> [action] soren to publish ec2-version-query in a more appropriate place
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren to publish ec2-version-query in a more appropriate place
 * soren nods
<mdz> erichammond doesn't seem to be here; does he not usually attend these meetings?
<smoser> mdz, i can try.  i'd like to get insight/thoughts from soren or anyone else if publish-from-amazon is not an acceptable solution. it actually is faster.
<mdz> smoser, I like the idea, but it depends on how much complexity/risk it would add to change the approach this late
<smoser> mdz, that is what i did for alpha 5 (i used amazon)
<mdz> what's happening with the EC2 kernel?
<smoser> for *publishing* not building
<mdz> smoser, oh
<smoser> building i think we keep in data cetner for now. but publishing just pulls from uec-images and runs through the upload-bundle, registher-image....
<smoser> zul, you have ec2 kernel info ?
<soren> smoser: It's mostly an IS decision I think. (I.e. can we get the relevant credentials onto EC2 in a secure enough manner)
<zul> mdz: we have a 2.6.31-rc6 kernel working on ec2, jj was working on packaging before he left the sprint
<mdz> zul, working on packaging = merging it into the karmic kernel tree?
<soren> zul: Working in all zones?
<mdz> (I don't think we want a separate package)
<zul> mdz: yes he was merging it into the karmic kernel tree
<zul> soren: yep
<soren> zul: Based on the Xen patches or pv-ops? Sorry, you probably told me already, but I forgot.
<zul> soren: Xen patches :(
<soren> Ok.
<smoser> just for the record, major applause is due to zul and jjohansen. this was really a impossible task.
<zul> i havent had a chance to sync up with jj yet
<mdz> pgraner, could you follow up with jj regarding merging the ec2 kernel into the karmic tree and providing it as a package? we need that for alpha 6
<mdz> zul, did we end up going with pv_ops or xen patches?
<pgraner> mdz: ack
<zul> mdz: xen-patches
<mdz> pgraner, I guess in that case, we need feedback on whether the patches can actually go into karmic or if they're problematic
<mdz> we have something which works, but it's unknown whether it's mergeable
<mdz> [action] mdz to confirm ec2 kernel status for alpha 6
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to confirm ec2 kernel status for alpha 6
<pgraner> mdz: we have our team meeting later today would be good to have some server reps there when we discuss. I'll add it to the agenda
<smoser> jj's thoughts friday were that it was not significant effort to go from 2.6.31-rc6 (what we have) to karmic-ified
<mdz> smoser, same question as for the uec images, how do we keep track of bugs which are specific to the AMIs?
<mdz> smoser, can you make it to (the relevant part of) the kernel team meeting later today?
<smoser> i've been doing 'also-effects-project' to the ubuntu-on-ec2 project
<smoser> time ? pgraner ?
<mdz> smoser, I'd like to ask that we use tags there as well, to keep things simple. having multiple status/importance/assignee is just noise unless they're being handled by separate people (which in this case they aren't)
<mdz> what would be a good tag to use? ec2? ec2-ami?
<pgraner> smoser: : 1700UTC
<mdz> (~90m from now)
<smoser> mdz, i dont like ec2-ami. as it indicates to me that kernel is not relevant
<smoser> ec2-images, corresponding to uec-images ?
<mdz> smoser, sounds good
<smoser> soren, anyone else, is that tag-based approach ok ?
<soren> smoser: Sure.
<mdz> it lets us get a very simple report out of launchpad of the open issues and their current status
<mdz> and it's a lot more lightweight (fewer clicks to add the tag)
<mdz> adding a task is pretty cumbersome just to group the bugs
 * smoser makes no objection
<mdz> [action] smoser to add ec2-images tag to the relevant bugs
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to add ec2-images tag to the relevant bugs
<mdz> anything else on EC2?
<smoser> mdz, so should i just kill all tasks related to ubuntu-on-ec2 ?
<mdz> smoser, kill or ignore as you see fit
<mdz> I assume there's also documentation to be updated
<mdz> [action] mdz to see that bug documentation is updated for uec-images, ec2-images tags
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mdz to see that bug documentation is updated for uec-images, ec2-images tags
<smoser> mdz, where does MootBot publish meeting minutes ?
<mdz> I'm wondering why we have a #ubuntu-ec2 IRC channel
<mdz> smoser, I'll email them out and add them to TeamReports on the wiki
<mdz> I've been hanging out in #ubuntu-ec2 lately, and it seems very dead
<mdz> when someone does come along with a question, there's nobody there to answer it
<nijaba> mdz: it is indeed now a bit rudundant with #ubuntu-cloud, which not very active as well
<mdz> since the amount of traffic is so low, I'd like to suggest that we fold it into #ubuntu-server
<kirkland_> mdz: there's also #ubuntu-virt
<mdz> aieee, irc fragmentation
<mdz> kirkland, nijaba, how many messages per day in those channels?
<nijaba> mdz: less than 10 on avg, apart for virt which can be more active
<Daviey> -cloud has had nothing since the 4th
<mdz> nijaba, if it's <10 messages per day, it would be beneficial to fold it into #-server where there are more people around and it's still on topic
<nijaba> mdz:  agreed
<mdz> kirkland_, how about #-virt?
<mdz> nijaba, could you take care of obsoleting #-ec2 and #-cloud in favor of #-server, updating web pages etc.?
<soren> mdz: ubuntu-virt is very active at times.
<nijaba> mdz: can do
<kirkland_> mdz:   wc says: 44437  525008 3627666 #ubuntu-virt.log since Apr 29, 2008
<nijaba> mdz: should I just update the topic on the channel to invite people to go elsewhere?
<mdz> [action] nijaba to fold #ubuntu-ec2 and #ubuntu-cloud into #ubuntu-server
<MootBot> ACTION received:  nijaba to fold #ubuntu-ec2 and #ubuntu-cloud into #ubuntu-server
<mdz> nijaba, yes
<nijaba> ok
<mdz> kirkland_, soren, is there anything in #-virt which would be unwelcome or off-topic in #-server?
<kirkland_> mdz: i don't think so; merely more traffic, IMO
<Daviey> it is worth noting that -server is increasingly being used for support, and some devel discussion.
<soren> mdz: Not per se, no.
<mdz> Daviey, #ubuntu-devel is available if folks need a place to go for devel discussion when #-server is too noisy
<nijaba> mdz: note that there re more 50p logged on #-virt
<soren> mdz: ...there are a bunch of people interested in virtualisation who don't care about servers, though.
<Daviey> mdz: agreed.
<mdz> soren, good point
<mdz> let's leave #-virt for now in any case
<mdz> [topic] Packaging and integration of Eucalyptus 1.6 (Soren)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Packaging and integration of Eucalyptus 1.6 (Soren)
 * Daviey suggests -cloud and -ec2 automatically redirects to -virt.. easy fix then
<Daviey> then no docs are really broken.
<mdz> I talked with the eucalyptus team yesterday and we agreed to use the 'eucalyptus' tag to track the bugs they care about
<mdz> [link] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=eucalyptus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=eucalyptus
<soren> Oh, neat.
<mdz> I asked them to file all of their current issues as bugs so that we can track them
<soren> Right. Eucalyptus 1.6 has landed in Ubuntu, now. In main, even. I've been going through some of the bugs today, and hope to get through the list tomorrow and get it all triaged.
<mdz> soren, if there are bugs which we should discuss with the eucalyptus team, please add the tag to them
<mdz> then when we have our meeting with them, we'll just go over the list of tagged bugs
<soren> mdz: Makes sense. Will do.
<nurmi> i'll also be tracking these bugs in LP in case any discussions come up bug comments
<mdz> [action] soren to triage all eucalyptus bugs, and use the 'eucalyptus' tag for bugs which should be escalated to the eucalyptus team
<MootBot> ACTION received:  soren to triage all eucalyptus bugs, and use the 'eucalyptus' tag for bugs which should be escalated to the eucalyptus team
<mdz> nurmi, oh, good, you're here. welcome!
<soren> mdz: Should I add them for eucalyptus bugs as well, so we get a complete list when querying for the tag?
<soren> mdz: Bugs in the eucalyptus source package itself, I mean.
<mdz> soren, I suggested we use the tag only for bugs which we're tracking together with eucalyptus
<mdz> maybe it would have been less confusing to use eucalyptus-systems or something
<soren> So.. "Yes"? :)
<mdz> soren, it's hard for me to say without having looked at many of the bugs
<soren> mdz: Ok. I think I'm on top of it.
<mdz> ok
<mdz> soren, if I made a bad guess at who to assign any of those bugs to, please fix them up for me
<soren> mdz: Already done.
<mdz> ttx is on holiday, or I would have sought his advice
<mdz> soren, thanks
<mdz> nurmi, is there anything you want to put on the agenda wrt eucalyptus 1.6 in karmic?
<nurmi> mdz: i think the bug list is pretty comprehensive thus far
<mdz> how is the installer side looking?
<nurmi> if we encounter new issues, should we be tagging them with the 'eucalyptus' tag if they effect the karmic package?
<mdz> nurmi, if the bug should be on the list when we look at bugs together, it should get the tag
<mdz> otherwise, no
<nurmi> mdz: we went through the install process yesterday, just a few issues that were encapsulated in the bug reports (post-install type questions for networking parameters, multiple interface configuration)
<mdz> if you want to always look at all bugs on the eucalyptus package, we can skip the tag for those and consider it implicit
<mdz> but we need to be able to tag the bugs which are not on the eucalyptus package itself anyway
<nurmi> mdz: got it, perfect
<mdz> soren, who is tracking uec installer issues on our side?
<soren> mdz: Colin.
<mdz> cjwatson, ping?
<soren> mdz: I've talked to him already.
<soren> ...and reassigned the bugs to him.
<mdz> soren, perfect, thank you
<mdz> [topic] Alfresco appliance (kirkland)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alfresco appliance (kirkland)
<mdz> kirkland_, how is this coming along?
<kirkland_> mdz: i first noticed that I was assigned this as of your edit of the wiki page yesterday
<kirkland_> mdz: i'll get some info from soren today about how he's creating appliances
<mdz> soren, kirkland_, is it doable to get this done in the next week?
<mdz> at least an alpha quality appliance?
<soren> mdz: I presume so. We need some changes to the alfresco package to get done. Other than that, we should be fine.
<kirkland_> mdz: on the alfresco side, it would help if it were in multiverse
<kirkland_> mdz: such that we could make changes and upload fixes to that package ourselves
<kirkland_> mdz: as it stands, it's in partner
<soren> mdz: It currently has a hard dependency on sun's java.
<mdz> I don't mind if we hand-hack it at this stage, so long as we have an image that we can try out
<soren> mdz: This makes it difficult to distribute, as the user is required to accept the EULA, afaiui.
<mdz> kirkland_, we're short on time. can you agree to give it your best shot? it doesn't need to be a clean build at this stage, something is way better than nothing
<kirkland_> mdz: yes, i'll have something alpha quality this week
<mdz> [action] kirkland to build a proof of concept alfresco appliance
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to build a proof of concept alfresco appliance
<mdz> kirkland_, lovely, thanks
<mdz> [topic] Appliance store (niemeyer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Appliance store (niemeyer)
<mdz> niemeyer, how are we doing?
<kirkland_> mdz: note that the real issues will probably be licensings, non-technical ones
<niemeyer> mdz: Moving along
<niemeyer> mdz: Here are some status details I wrote down
<niemeyer> Image Store UI has been pushed upstream and is integrated into 1.6.
<niemeyer> Image Store UI depends on local proxy, which is being written at the moment.
<niemeyer> Proxy coding status:
<niemeyer> - Already done: full architecture, internal service and task dispatching        infrastructure, frontend API, AWS signature checking, part of the storage       mechanisms, proxying of API calls to the upstream API (e.g. get dashboard), etc.
<niemeyer> - Being written now: downloading of images.
<niemeyer> - To be written: checking of gpg signature, bundling of images, uploading into  Eucalyptus, obtaining credentials through euca_conf.
<niemeyer> We have the following external dependencies thus far for the overall concept:   images released by server team must be registered in the store, proxy must be   packaged with Eucalyptus.
<niemeyer> We hope to have most of it done by the 14th.
<mdz> niemeyer, is the image store UI in the 1.6 packages in karmic today?
<niemeyer> mdz: It is
<mdz> great
<mdz> niemeyer, will the proxy be added to the eucalyptus package or shipped separately?
<niemeyer> mdz: There might be some minor CSS details to fix, but that's just a detail
<niemeyer> mdz: Either way works for us
<mdz> soren, what do you think?
<niemeyer> mdz: Might be easier to upgrade being separate
<niemeyer> mdz: But might be easier to package initially being integrated
<soren> mdz: It
<niemeyer> mdz: Whatever soren is happy with is great by us
<soren> It's hard to say. I'm not familiar with the code base.
<soren> If it's in a separate package, who will do the packaging=
<soren> ?
<niemeyer> soren: It's a python package, with a command for starting the proxy up, and a storage directory for cache and image work
<mdz> soren, could you look into it with niemeyer this week, decide what to do and help him get it packaged?
<soren> niemeyer: Separate package.
<niemeyer> soren: Rick originally told me "I'll keep someone on the line for packaging this when it's ready."
<cjwatson> mdz: responding to ping, although it looks like it's been dealt with
<niemeyer> soren: I understand it's not very helpful information now
<mdz> I think niemeyer can maintain the package
<mdz> once it's set up, if someone can get the initial packaging into place so he can stay focused on the proxy
<soren> niemeyer: I'd prefer it if you could do the packaging. It's hard to commit to packaging something within any timeframe when you haven't seen it yet.
<niemeyer> soren: I'm not great with deb packaging.. I'd be very happy to have someone's help with this
<mdz> mathiaz, do you think you could give niemeyer a hand getting it packaged?
<niemeyer> soren: I'll be on the line for any issues
<soren> niemeyer: Unless of course, you could give us the code before a last minute code drop?
<mathiaz> mdz: I can give it a shot - I have access to the code
<mathiaz> mdz: I can give it a shot - *if* I have access to the code
<niemeyer> soren: It's already the "last minute" in a way :(
<mdz> [action] mathiaz to get niemeyer's proxy code packaged
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to get niemeyer's proxy code packaged
<niemeyer> Either way, I'll be on the line for any issues with the code, or any questions related to building the package
<niemeyer> mathiaz: Thanks a lot
<mdz> niemeyer, is there any reason it can't be released publicly today?
<niemeyer> mdz: It is released publicly.. it's just not working yet
<mdz> ok
<soren> niemeyer: Oh? WherE?
<mathiaz> niemeyer: where?
<niemeyer> lp:~niemeyer/+junk/image-store
<mdz> niemeyer, is there anything else you need?
<mdz> we're running late, so I'd like to move on
<niemeyer> mdz: We need to sync up on the registration of images in the store, but nothing else I can think of now
<mdz> [topic] Canonical application support (zul)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Canonical application support (zul)
<nurmi> niemeyer: re euca_conf get credentials - do you need just the query/access keys for 'admin'?
<niemeyer> mdz: Thanks
<niemeyer> nurmi: That and the certificates
<zul> mdz: rabbitmq-server hasnt been reviewed yet by the MIR team but kees said he was going to look at it today
<niemeyer> nurmi: Dmitrii had some working code in the Dublin sprint.. I'm not sure if it's been integrated
<mdz> zul, ok, sounds good
<nurmi> niemeyer: nod, i'll send you a note later
<niemeyer> nurmi: Do you know details about this?
<niemeyer> nurmi: Awesome, thank you
<mdz> [action] zul to ensure rabbitmq-server gets reviewed and promoted
<MootBot> ACTION received:  zul to ensure rabbitmq-server gets reviewed and promoted
<zul> ack
<mdz> [topic] Directory items (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Directory items (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> mdz: openldap 2.4.18 was released sunday
<mdz> mathiaz, openldap 2.4.18 is the only item outstanding, right?
<mathiaz> mdz: FFe granted last night
<mdz> excellent
<mathiaz> mdz: I'll upload the package today
<mdz> [action] mathiaz to upload openldap 2.4.18
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to upload openldap 2.4.18
<mdz> mathiaz, anything else in this area worth discussing?
<mathiaz> mdz: nope
<mathiaz> next step: more testing
<mdz> [topic] CIM/WBEM (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  CIM/WBEM (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> mdz: provider are available in the archive
<mathiaz> mdz: next step: more testing
<mdz> mathiaz, are all of the work items in the wiki completed?
<mdz> update wbem stack, package pywbem, package libopendrim, package opendrim providers?
<mathiaz> mdz: yes
<mdz> ok, perfect
<mdz> [topic] Followups from server team sprint
<MootBot> New Topic:  Followups from server team sprint
<mdz> I'm sorry I missed the end of the sprint
<mdz> thierry sent me a summary and mentioned a few things we should follow up on
<mdz> one was testing procedures for the UEC images
<mdz> smoser, where does that stand?
<mathiaz> I've updated the test cases - http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/System/CloudImages
<smoser> regarding testing, we need to get to where the tests in iso tracker are fully automated (at least on ec2)
<mdz> ttx said we should add additional tests, because there was only one and it was dependent on a working UEC
<mathiaz> the main issue we had was that we didn't have access to a working UEC
<mdz> mathiaz, so the "bundle uec image for ec2" case should cover that now?
<smoser> once we get a reasonable framework down, adding additional tests should be fairly easy. for now, it is very error prone to run the tests.
<mdz> smoser, do you think that is achievable for alpha 6?
<mathiaz> mdz: hm - kind of.
<mathiaz> mdz: but yes - to test the UEC image delivrable rebundling to ec2 should cover it
<mdz> mathiaz, well, in that it should be possible to test without UEC if necessary
<smoser> mdz, it "should be" a reasonable thing to achieve. at least to get through the tests we have there.
<mathiaz> mdz: I still think that testing on UEC is important.
<smoser> given other things on my list, i don't really want to commit to it though
<mdz> mathiaz, I agree. the issue ttx raised was that we couldn't pass any tests for the UEC images unless UEC itself was passing tests
<mathiaz> mdz: right - with rebundle-to-ec2 with got another option for testing
<mdz> smoser, ok, we can survive with manual tests if necessary
<mathiaz> mdz: testing UEC images. which is better than nothing
<mdz> is there anything else which was an open issue at the end of the sprint?
<mathiaz> not that I can think of.
<mdz> kirkland_, there is some confusion over the image upgrade issue
<kirkland_> mdz: yes, i was wondering if we were going to get to that today
<mdz> kirkland_, I suggested that we defer it so that we can focus more on bug fixing and all of the infrastructure/process work we need to do
<kirkland_> mdz: i'd like some advice on how to proceed
<mdz> kirkland_, is that ok with you?
<kirkland_> mdz: that's fine with me, bug fixing sounds more important at this point
<kirkland_> mdz: my patch is tested, and posted in the bug, for posterity
<mdz> kirkland_, qemu-kvm is listed as a sprint agenda item which was not crossed off yet
<kirkland_> mdz: we can revisit at any time
<kirkland_> mdz: yes, i uploaded qemu-kvm-0.11~rc2 this morning
<kirkland_> mdz: upstream should GA qemu-kvm-0.11 just before our Beta
<kirkland_> mdz: these rc's are bug-fixes only, stabilizing the package
<kirkland_> mdz: we are in lock-step with upstream and Fedora on this particular package
<mdz> kirkland_, have you sent a call for testing?
<kirkland_> mdz: which is a very good thing, as we're sharing the testing/debugging burden
<mdz> I think I saw one from you
<kirkland_> mdz: http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2009/09/qemu-kvm-011rc2-uploaded-to-karmic.html
<mdz> what is the next step we need to take?
<kirkland_> http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2009/08/qemu-kvm-call-for-testing.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://blog.dustinkirkland.com/2009/08/qemu-kvm-call-for-testing.html
<zul> kirkland_: i still dont understand why you need bochbios as a build dependency since it builds it own bios
<kirkland_> mdz: we need significant testing of kvm, itself, by our community
<kirkland_> mdz: soren and I have noticed that most kvm bugs don't get filed until after GA, sadly
<mdz> kirkland_, do you need help organizing that?  maybe the QA team could help you run a testing day or something?
<kirkland_> mdz: and we always SRU several kvm fixes, most of which could have been caught earlier
<kirkland_> mdz: it's our theory that people just don't test servers until after we release
<kirkland_> mdz: i would welcome a QA bug day on kvm
<soren> I find the spike to be between RC and final. Annoyingly.
<mathiaz> kirkland_: it seems that you're more looking for a QA Testing day
<kirkland_> soren: ack, okay, just before GA, then
<kirkland_> mathiaz: agreed, Testing Day, not Bug Day
<Daviey> It is hard to test kvm boxes with production level burden, to be fair.
<mdz> [action] kirkland to speak with marjo about how to get qemu-kvm tested prior to release (and more generally server applications like it)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  kirkland to speak with marjo about how to get qemu-kvm tested prior to release (and more generally server applications like it)
<kirkland_> Daviey: understood
<kirkland_> mdz: accepted
<mdz> kirkland_, please CC me in if you discuss it by email
<mdz> [topic] Server developer team in LP for ArchiveReorganisation (Matt)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server developer team in LP for ArchiveReorganisation (Matt)
<mdz> so we now have package sets in Launchpad, and cjwatson was looking for the appropriate teams to have privileges on them
<mdz> but there didn't seem to be an appropriate team for Server Edition
<Daviey> ~ubuntu-server is an open team..
<mdz> right, which makes it incredibly inappropriate for this :-)
<cjwatson> yeah, it's clearly inappropriate here
<kirkland_> Daviey: yeah, too broad to dole out upload perms there
<mdz> I think what's needed is the creation of an ubuntu-server-dev team, but I would need help populating it
<mdz> can someone take the action to sort this out with cjwatson?
<mathiaz> mdz: I can look into this
<cjwatson> this isn't a blocker for archive reorg, but if the server team wants to take advantage of the ability to provide upload privileges for server bits without requiring core-dev, somebody will need to sort it out
<cjwatson> cool
<mdz> mathiaz, thanks
<mdz> [action] mathiaz to get a server dev team set up in LP and work with cjwatson to get it set up for archive reorg
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to get a server dev team set up in LP and work with cjwatson to get it set up for archive reorg
<mdz> [topic] Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (all)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Assigned and to-be-assigned bugs: http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html (all)
<mdz> [link]  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<MootBot> LINK received:   http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-server-assigned-bug-tasks.html
<mdz> I don't know if this list was a regular part of your workflow previously, but I'd like to start using it to keep track of active bugs in the team
<mdz> it looks like there's a lot of noise on it at the moment
<kirkland_> mdz: i'm going to go through mine today
<mdz> including 3 old bugs which are assigned to me
<Daviey> mdz: previously this was where we discussed potential SRU acceptance.
<mathiaz> Daviey: not yet
<mdz> Daviey, we're following https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<Daviey> oh :)
<Daviey> <-- fail.
<mathiaz> Daviey: there is another section for SRU
<mdz> so please look at your list of assigned bugs, and make sure it's up to date
<mdz> that's all
<mdz> [topic] weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<MootBot> New Topic:  weekly SRU review (mathiaz)
<mathiaz> http://people.canonical.com/~mathiaz/buglists/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~mathiaz/buglists/fixedbugs.ubuntu-server.latest.html
<mathiaz> anything sru worthy on this list^^?
<zul> the net-snmp one
<mathiaz> zul: bug 406171
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 406171 in net-snmp "COUNTER64 broken in NetSNMP::agent" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/406171
<mathiaz> kirkland_: any of the kvm-qemu would apply to kvm?
<zul> mathiaz: and the samba one might be as well
<mathiaz> zul: bug 423854?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 423854 in samba "Karmic: Multiple crashes in "net usershare list"" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/423854
<zul> mathiaz: that has to be investiaged a bit more as well
 * nurmi has another engagment to go to; thanks all - i'll be in touch
<mathiaz> zul: for hardy? jaunty?
<zul> mathiaz: jaunty
<Daviey> The mysql one was a regression in karmic mysql 5.1, so not relevant.
<mdz> maintenance on jaunty should be minimal at this stage
<mathiaz> zul: both bugs nominated for jautny
<mdz> unless it's a critical bug (and both of those are Undecided), I'd default to "no"
<mdz> mathiaz, ready to move on?
<mathiaz> sure
<mathiaz> there are 4 other lists to look at:
<mathiaz> http://us-dappernominated.notlong.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://us-dappernominated.notlong.com/
<Daviey> nice!
<mathiaz> nothing in there
<mathiaz> http://us-hardynominated.notlong.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://us-hardynominated.notlong.com/
<mdz> the dapper one is empty
<mdz> the hardy ones are all fix released
<mathiaz> kirkland_: ^^ any bugs worth accepting for hardy?
<mathiaz> kirkland_: they're all libvirt/kvm bugs?
<kirkland_> mathiaz: most of the kvm bugs have been solved in the hardy-backports package of kvm-84
<kirkland_> mathiaz: i believe it unwise to waste any more time on kvm-62, unless we find data corruption issues
<mathiaz> kirkland_: so all the bugs should be declined for hardy?
<mathiaz> kirkland_: http://us-hardynominated.notlong.com/
<kirkland_> mathiaz: i'll go through those, but yes, i'll decline then with a note to try kvm-84 in backports
<kirkland_> mathiaz: and the correspoding libvirt
<mathiaz> kirkland_: ok - same question for intrepid nominated
<mathiaz> kirkland_: http://us-intrepidnominated.notlong.com/
<mathiaz> kirkland_: they're all libvirt/kvm bugs
<soren> Sorry, guys. The real world is calling.
<mdz> unless any of them are Critical importance, skip it
 * soren runs off
<mdz> soren, understood
<kirkland_> mathiaz: ditto ... same thing.  kvm-72 was also clearly beta-quality code
<mathiaz> kirkland_: ok - could go through them and decline them?
<mdz> as a general policy, we should focus maintenance almost exclusively on the current stable and current LTS
<mathiaz> kirkland_: and there is one bug in the jaunty list
<mathiaz> http://us-jauntynominated.notlong.com/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://us-jauntynominated.notlong.com/
<mathiaz> that's all for the SRU review
<mathiaz> I'll write up a script to review which bugs have been assigned
<mathiaz> and make sure they're not get stalled
<kirkland_> mathiaz: i don't think that's SRU-worthy
<mdz> mathiaz, thanks
<mdz> [topic] Progress on Roadmap
<MootBot> New Topic:  Progress on Roadmap
<mathiaz> kirkland_: ok - I'll decline them
<mdz> I'm not sure how this section normally works; I find it a bit confusing because the wiki page doesn't list the projects that most of you are working on
<mathiaz> mdz: the Roadmap is not really up-to-date
<mathiaz> mdz: we should skip it
<mdz> mathiaz, we should also update the Roadmap, no? :-)
<mdz> I'll ask ttx to take care of that when he gets back from his holiday
<mathiaz> mdz: yes - that would be helpful
<mdz> [action] ttx to update server team Roadmap to reflect current projects
<MootBot> ACTION received:  ttx to update server team Roadmap to reflect current projects
<mdz> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<mdz> anything else?
<mdz> canonical folks, remember there is a conference call immediately following this meeting
<Daviey> fortunes-ubuntu-server got MIR approval.
<Daviey> needs to be added to server seed.
<Daviey> (and a version bump, to reflect some MIR review changes)
<mdz> I've not been tracking that as a 9.10 feature
<Daviey> nijaba: ^^ ?
<nijaba> Daviey: MIR: bug #423667, FFe: bug #423678.  MIR has been granted, nothing has happened on FFe.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 423667 in ubuntu-server-tips "[MIR] fortunes-ubuntu-server" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/423667
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 423678 in ubuntu-server-tips "[FFe] fortunes-ubuntu-server" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/423678
<mdz> ok, so it's not actionable yet anyway
<mdz> can we wrap up?
<nijaba> mdz: it was not a tracked feature per say, more something that came along
<Daviey> sure.
<mdz> great, sorry for running so long, we had a lot to catch up on and this is my first server team meeting in a while
<mdz> thanks a lot, everyone
<mdz> [endmeeting]
<mdz> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:43.
<Daviey> thanks mdz
<mdz> mathiaz, can I ask you to send out the notes and update the TeamReport?
<mathiaz> mdz: sure
<lieb> kernel meetiing in 5
<lieb> Roll Call
 * manjo waves 
 * cking_ here
 * jjohansen waves
 * smb is here
 * sconklin is here
 * pgraner waves
<lieb> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is lieb.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<lieb> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<lieb> I will fill in Leann' status as we go along...
<lieb> Last week's meeting cancelled due to team travel etc.
<lieb> #startmeeting
<MootBot> lieb, There is already a meeting in progress.
<lieb> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<lieb> I will fill in Leann' status as we go along...
<lieb> Last week's meeting cancelled due to team travel etc.
 * pgraner hears an echo
<lieb> cut and paste silliness.
<lieb> [TOPIC] Open Action Items: (apw) Check up on drdb status in dkms package and kernel
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Action Items: (apw) Check up on drdb status in dkms package and kernel
<lieb> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<apw> thats still hanging about
<apw> i've not gotten to it as i was out
<lieb> ok tnx
 * amitk sneaks in
<lieb> [TOPIC] Karmic Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targe
<MootBot> New Topic:  Karmic Release Status: Bugs (Release Meeting Bugs / RC Milestoned Bugs / Release Targe
<apw> ogasawara normally reports on those i think
<lieb> yes.  I'll dump her status from lastweek
<lieb> From ogasawara:
<lieb> [LINK]  http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/hwdb/driver-stats.html
<MootBot> LINK received:   http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/hwdb/driver-stats.html
<lieb>  * I finally got around to writing a hwdb script to search for all known
<lieb> drivers and the total number of owners.  In the future this will also
<lieb> show the total number of bugs related to a specific driver as checkbox
<lieb> just recently provided a way to save the hw profile submission id for
<lieb> apport to link to a bug.  Note some drivers will have an "*" by their
<lieb> name indicating LP timed out while gathering the data so the stats will
<lieb> be inaccurate for those.
<lieb> to blue pring status..
<lieb> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-kms (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-kms (apw)
<apw> kms is basically business as usual now
<lieb> close?
<apw> for intel, fixes coming down the pipe
<rtg> apw, have you been following the GPU lockup issues?
<apw> for radeon we are still waiting on that coming
<apw> rtg not been aware of them no
<apw> got a pointer to the discussion and i'll see what i can find out
<cking_> which GPUs?
<rtg> apw, ok, there appear to be some tools that help debug that
<rtg> cking_, i915 so far
<apw> i think there was at least one hang fix in the -rc9 fixes
 * cking_ wonders if we need some GPU tests on the USB test dongle
<lieb> apw, keep this open?
<apw> i did see some discussion ongoing on making it use its own workqueues to help keep the machine up should it be hanging
<rtg> apw, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/424055
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 424055 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "[i945GME] Karmic Intel GPU hang on Dell Mini 10v" [Unknown,Confirmed]
<apw> lieb, sounds like it to me
<lieb> ok
<lieb> next?
<apw> rtg thx
<lieb> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-new-kernel-on-lts (rtg)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-new-kernel-on-lts (rtg)
<rtg> lts kernel - was ready to upload last week but got side tracked by a  trip top St Louis
<pgraner> rtg: its time to get QA involved to start testing this on the boxes we have
<rtg> need to ask archive admins if I need a MIR. should sort that out this week.
<pgraner> rtg: don't dump it into the archive yet
<rtg> pgraner, ack
<pgraner> rtg: lets get some cycles in testing
<rtg> pgraner, I'll get a PPA version uploaded
<pgraner> rtg: I have a call with QA today and we can work out a plan
<pgraner> rtg: outstanding
<rtg> lieb, thats all from me
<lieb> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-review-of-non-upstreamed-code (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-review-of-non-upstreamed-code (smb)
<smb> Remaining:
<smb> - lenovo-sl: Partially updated, still has one update pending which needs
<smb>              some more work.
<smb> - lmpcm_usb: Has not been enabled for a while (patch to remove it ready)
<smb>              This Logitech gizmo driver sounds like it should be supported
<smb>              by the normal drivers by now but I have not been validating
<smb>              this.
<lieb> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-sponsoring-staging-drivers (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-sponsoring-staging-drivers (smb)
<apw> that one is still on hold iirc
<smb> No progress
<lieb> ok open for next week
<lieb> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-suspend-resume (manjo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-suspend-resume (manjo)
<manjo> a lot of progress made on the USB testing last week
<manjo> * bug reporting on failed results
<manjo> * no suite selection dialog
<manjo> * a 'view report' page at the end of the test
<manjo> * the actual XML report file saved correctly
<manjo> also marc is working on supporting HTML tags to descriptions
<manjo> so that we can have RTF for descriptions
<manjo> need to work on uploading test results to server
<pgraner> manjo: rt ticket is filed, I'll ping IT today
<lieb> tnx
<manjo> pgraner, thanks a ton
 * manjo over 
<lieb> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-wifi (rtg)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-wifi (rtg)
<rtg> no progress this last week
<pgraner> rtg: we missed this earlier I added it to the agenda
<pgraner> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/409233
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 409233 in linux "[Regression] Bluetooth Causes Suspend to fail" [High,Triaged]
<rtg> pgraner, can you still repro?
<pgraner> rtg: which goes with the killswitch
<pgraner> rtg: yep like a charm
<pgraner> manjo: ????^^^^
<rtg> pgraner, ok, its probably time to get focused
<manjo> pgraner, want me to look at that one ?
<pgraner> rtg: I'll test with the latest rc mainline to see if its there
<pgraner> manjo: can't hurt
<manjo> ok
<pgraner> manjo: I can tell you that I've look at kernel.org bz
<apw> manjo, there are some whats to test steps in the bottom of the bug
<manjo> apw, yep reading that now
<pgraner> manjo: and there are no reports and on LKML either
<manjo> I have a 1330
<apw> excellent
<apw> there is anew -10 kernel as of about 20 mins ago you could test
<apw> and thats a 31-rc9 kernel, for mainline comparison
<pgraner> apw: ack
<lieb> [TOPIC] Blueprints: kernel-karmic-better-power-mgt (amitk)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprints: kernel-karmic-better-power-mgt (amitk)
<manjo> apachelogger, ack
<manjo> apw, ack
<bjf> remove from agenda?
<amitk> lieb, no progress. This was supposed to be removed
<lieb> done
<lieb> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: AppArmor (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: AppArmor (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> AppArmor closed out bugs affecting security team #419308 #408473 #4084454
<jjohansen>   #419222 #401931 #419505
<jjohansen> turned #359338 over to jdstrand which he finished testing and closed
<jjohansen> have a new bug #415632
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 415632 in linux "apparmor not properly handling file deletion on NFS" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/415632
<apw> is that the only outstanding bug now?
<lieb> keep open?
<pgraner> lieb: yep
<jjohansen> apw: no
<lieb> ok
<jjohansen> there are a couple tool bugs still open
<jjohansen> I haven't looked at them yet, need to meet with kees over a couple issues
<lieb> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: EC2 kernel (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: EC2 kernel (jjohansen)
<jjohansen> we managed to get a vanilla 2.6.31 kernel working late friday
<jjohansen> it boots and gives console in all US east zones
<jjohansen> #418130
<jjohansen> we still don't have any idea why bug #398568
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 398568 in ubuntu-on-ec2 "ami-bbf514d2: Sometimes does not start booting (empty console output, no network)" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/398568
<pgraner> jjohansen: so does this mean you can get us a Karmic kernel? If so can we make Alpha6?
<jjohansen> is occuring and need to follow up with amazon, after we get some more detailed time with it one centos 5.0
<jjohansen> pgraner: I believe so
<jjohansen> I have the patches applied, but it is currently failing to link on some missing symbols
<pgraner> jjohansen: we prob need to keep a daily irc meeting on this one until we have a solid kernel.
<jjohansen> as far as I have gotten it is patching in some stuff
<jjohansen> to the xen-tree
<jjohansen> pgraner: sounds like a good idea
<lieb> action?
<pgraner> jjohansen: set up a time and channel, prob #ubuntu-kernel would be best, make sure the server team is invited
<lieb> [ACTION] jjohansen: set up a time and channel, prob #ubuntu-kernel would be best, make sure the server team is invited
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jjohansen: set up a time and channel, prob #ubuntu-kernel would be best, make sure the server team is invited
<jjohansen> pgraner: okay, early morning  work best?
<pgraner> jjohansen: up to the server team, works for most of us since your west coast
<jjohansen> pgraner: okay I will check with the server team
<lieb> more?
<pgraner> lieb: not for now
<lieb> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: ARM-Freescale (amitk, bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: ARM-Freescale (amitk, bjf)
<bjf> i'm in the middle of rebasing mvl-dove to -rc9 and testing, that should be done today (real soon now)
<amitk> I've rebased imx51 to -rc8 and currently testing.
<rtg> bjf, just pushed a udeb name patch
<amitk> will rebase to -rc9 soon
<amitk> also working on bug 418238, bug 420447
<rtg> the kernel udeb version thingy
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 418238 in linux-fsl-imx51 "Ethernet (FEC) not functional on Babbage with 2.6.31" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/418238
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 420447 in linux-fsl-imx51 "no sound devices on babbage board with linux-image-2.6.31-100-imx51" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/420447
<bjf> rtg, ack
<lieb> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: Union Mount Solution (apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: Union Mount Solution (apw)
<pgraner> lieb: that one is dead
<apw> i think this one is closed now.
<lieb> closed
<apw> we are using aufs2
<lieb> [TOPIC] Other Release Tasks: ARM-Freescale (amitk, bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Other Release Tasks: ARM-Freescale (amitk, bjf)
<lieb> sorry..
<lieb> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb/gnarl)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb/gnarl)
<smb> * Dapper:   2.6.15-54.79 (security)
<smb> * Hardy:    2.6.24-24.59 (security)
<smb>             2.6.24-24.60 (proposed)[17] 1/2 verifications
<smb>             LUM-2.6.24-24.40 (proposed, uploaded today)
<smb> * Intrepid: 2.6.27-14.39 (security)
<smb>             2.6.27-14.41 (proposed)[8] 9/24 verifications
<smb> * Jaunty    2.6.28-15.49 (security)
<smb>             2.6.28-15.52 (proposed, uploaded today) 8/17 verifications
<smb>                           1 regression caused by #228399 fixed by revert
<smb> As always anyone listening/reading here and having bugs fixed in proposed,
<smb> please update the bug with test information.
<smb> <eof>
<lieb> [TOPIC] Status: Karmic (rtg, apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Karmic (rtg, apw)
<apw> we have just rebased to 2.6.31-rc9 based kernel
<apw> this is expected to be the last -rc, though so was -rc8
<apw> should have a .31 kernel in before beta
<rtg> apw, likely late this week I think
 * apw concurs
<pgraner> We need to turn the troops on regression hunt and killing
<pgraner> Then high pri bugs in that order
<apw> pgraner, ack
<lieb> [TOPIC] Status: ARM (amitk, bjf)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: ARM (amitk, bjf)
 * smb feels DejaVu
<bjf> confused at to which meeting agenda we are following
<pgraner> Yea, we just discussed that
<bjf> that's covered already
<lieb> [TOPIC] Status: Netbook (sconklin, apw)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Netbook (sconklin, apw)
<sconklin> No work by me - apw?
<apw> rebasing karmic netbook in progress.  should be ready tommorrow
<apw> nothing else going on to my knowledge
<pgraner> sounds like we can drop this one
<lieb> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: (ogasawara)
<pgraner> What I want to replace it with is manjo's netbook testing
<pgraner> manjo: ^^^^^
<apw> pgraner, sounds like a good plan
<sconklin> ack
<lieb> done
<lieb> wrt bugs, see Leann's email from Sunday
<lieb> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Anyone have anything?
<lieb> move on?
<apw> nothing here
<cking_> silence
<manjo> I will have the usb key image out for team testing sometime this week
<manjo> comments & suggestions welcome
<cking_> 'k
<smb> ack
<manjo> probably based on latest alpha/beta
<manjo> and not alpha4 as I had said earlier ..
<lieb> [TOPIC] Next Meeting Chair:
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next Meeting Chair:
<bjf> ogasawara is next i believe
<lieb> Leann is next?
<sconklin> didn't we have a list?
<sconklin> where is the list?
<cking_> alphabet?
<manjo> sconklin, leann is next
<lieb> motion to ajourn?
<pgraner> ack
<apw> seconded
<lieb> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:35.
<czajkowski> pgraner: what time is it over there?
<pgraner> czajkowski: 1400
<czajkowski> pgraner: cheers
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-09-09
<bodhi_zazen> ready ?
<bodhi_zazen> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:01. The chair is bodhi_zazen.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<bodhi_zazen> who is here for the meeting ?
<swoody> o/
<Silver_Fox_> o/
<drs305> o/
<Rocket2DMn> o/
<bodhi_zazen> do we have any new members ?
<ibuclaw> i/
<bodhi_zazen> [LLINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_: poke
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Meeting Times
<MootBot> New Topic:  Meeting Times
<Silver_Fox_>  I think the time has been discussed in the mailing list for the last week and want to know what we are going to do.
<Silver_Fox_> A few ideas were suggested,  lets vote on them
<bodhi_zazen> LOL
<ibuclaw> Silver_Fox_, we did have the idea of a Eurasian Meeting not so long ago.
<ibuclaw> I think discussion on that stagnated
<Silver_Fox_> That was rejected as it had lack of interest.   Now the team has grown some more and it has been raised again by new people.
<bodhi_zazen> I like the idea of alternate meeting times and I think we should try to accommodate them (alternate times)
<Silver_Fox_> Can we not give it a trial?
<bodhi_zazen> The problem has been - lack of interest
<bodhi_zazen> I would like to see all the people interested in such an alternate time:
<Joeb454> I'd be happy to attend the later meeting and email logs to somebody to chair a more eurasian meeting time
<bodhi_zazen> meet and set a time
<bodhi_zazen> I will make my best effort to attend
<bodhi_zazen> I suggest we specify a single contact person to coordinate such meetings with me
<bodhi_zazen> so that we may review issues before and after such meetings
<swoody> I would support an alternate time, so as many members can be a part of the processes that go on with the team
<starcraftman> Salutations, I just arrived :)
<swoody> as many members as possible**
<bodhi_zazen> who here is interested in setting an alternate time for meetings ?
<Silver_Fox_> o/
<bodhi_zazen> And I really do not see asking those in the Americas to meet at off times
<Silver_Fox_> +1 bodhi_zazen
<lukjad007> Hi
<bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_ and Joeb454 want to start coordinating meetings then ?
<Silver_Fox_> I am happy to do so bodhi_zazen
<Joeb454> bodhi_zazen: can do - the later meetings suit me better, so I can pass logs to Silver_Fox_ :)
<bodhi_zazen> I am fine with that and I do not think it involves the whole team until such a time as you two have enough interest to have such meetings
<swoody> o/
<bodhi_zazen> There is always an interest expressed, would be nice to see it come to fruition =)
<ibuclaw> before you know it, we may branch off into two separate main groups ;)
<ibuclaw> -beginners-eu and -beginners-us
<ibuclaw> :P
<Joeb454> lol
<Silver_Fox_> This way it gets a chance.
<bodhi_zazen> [AGREED]Start alternate meetings, come to the team once it is starting to happen and again once it is happening =)
<MootBot> AGREED received: Start alternate meetings, come to the team once it is starting to happen and again once it is happening =)
<swoody> Now how would the voting work with two separate meeting times? Would we just tally all votes from both meetings before making a final decision?
<ibuclaw> well ... that would depend on which meeting goes first
<Silver_Fox_> We would vote on the same items.
<bodhi_zazen> swoody: you are putting the cart b4 the horse =)
<swoody> bodhi_zazen, I'm just curious is all :)
<swoody> didn't know if that had already been worked out
<bodhi_zazen> But yes, we would ideally have a coordination of votes
<swoody> ok :)
<bodhi_zazen> don't get me wrong, I think alternate meeting times would be awesome, we can share an agenda
<starcraftman> sounds all good to me, more participation is always better.
<bodhi_zazen> it is just that up to now, although there has been interest, when the rubber hits the pavement alternate meeting times have not happened
<bodhi_zazen> Once they start to happen it *should* be trivial to coordinate
<bodhi_zazen> any other comments on alternate meeting times ?
<bodhi_zazen> starcraftman: you ready ?
<Silver_Fox_> O/
<bodhi_zazen> go Silver_Fox_
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: I am, just been sitting quietly, I hope people glanced over my stuff in advance, it's mostly self-explanitory.
<bodhi_zazen> as long as your comments are  [ON TOPOC] ; no need for o/
<Silver_Fox_> Would this infact mean we are going down to once a fortnight meetings per whole team or not?
<Silver_Fox_> Sorry,  once a month.
<bodhi_zazen> I think once a month meetings are appropriate, in the long run once for the Americas and once for Euroasia
<bodhi_zazen> we can meet more often if needed
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] New Join Us Page
<MootBot> New Topic:  New Join Us Page
<bodhi_zazen> starcraftman: has drafted a few pages
<bodhi_zazen> they look nice
<starcraftman> Yup, took me some time, its all oriented to new members.
<bodhi_zazen> are people ready to change or do we need time for review / comments ?
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: only thing I'
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man/Sandbox
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man/Sandbox
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: nvm that comment, darn enter key.
<starcraftman> Anyway, thats the new join us page I wrote up. I think its an improvement to the old one that was a bit skimpy. It details all the basic steps new members usually need to go through, and is written from common questions I've gotten.
<bodhi_zazen> comments ?
<starcraftman> I basically just wanted feedback on anything should be improved, if everyone agrees they want to replace old one with it, then I will.
<Rocket2DMn> That is a wealth of information man, but what a wall of text
 * bodhi_zazen assumes most poeple are reading it for the first time =)
<starcraftman> Also, wanted to know if there are any inactive mentors from masters list I should remove. Like say aj?
 * ibuclaw is missing from the Masters column
<lukjad007> starcraftman I skimmed it, and it looked good :)
<Rocket2DMn> I think that can be slimmed down a fair amount, and some of the info can be spread to a couple of different pages on the our wiki area
<bodhi_zazen> aj should be removed until he is more active =)
<ibuclaw> starcraftman, replace him with me ;)
<bodhi_zazen> Rocket2DMn: are you interested in helping with that ?
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: I guess I can agree, your wall of text is mostly directed at tell us about ya section eh?
<Rocket2DMn> lol
<Rocket2DMn> id be happy to help with it, though it may have to wait a couple of weeks
<swoody> I'm +1 on the new page
<bodhi_zazen> anybody else interested in helping with that page ?
<swoody> it could be slimmed down a bit, but I think newcomers may find it nice to find all the pertinent info in one spot, too
<ibuclaw> considering this was the old page : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/FocusGroups/YNU
<Rocket2DMn> I'm primarily concerned that all that information could be a bit overwhelming for new members
<ibuclaw> +1 on new page
<Rocket2DMn> that's why I said some of it can be spread around too
<bodhi_zazen> [IDEA] Put new page in place, to be revised by interested parties over next month ?
<MootBot> IDEA received:  Put new page in place, to be revised by interested parties over next month ?
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn:I'll look into moving some of the wiki creation information to its own page, I get what your saying and I think I know how to improve.
<Rocket2DMn> Perhaps like a summary page similar to what we have now with some of this new stuff added in, then a detailed page for reference
<Rocket2DMn> That reference page can be as useful for us as new members.  It's good for new members to come and ask us quesions in here too, it generates good conversation
<Rocket2DMn> and we can use it to help new users get integrated
<Rocket2DMn> anyway, just my 2 cents, sounds like others like it
<bodhi_zazen> [IDEA]Work on draft for next month ?
<MootBot> IDEA received: Work on draft for next month ?
<lukjad007> I like it, for one thing, it's comprehensive
<swoody> +1 lukjad007
<bodhi_zazen> if we go this second route, who is willing to work on it over the next month ?
<Rocket2DMn> o/
<swoody> it does cover almost everything a newcomer could ask, so I'm sure it'll come in very handy
<lukjad007> I would be willing to help look it over :)
<bodhi_zazen> vote ?
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: I am, I think I get what Rocket2DMn is saying, I'll try and fix it up a bit. I got plenty of time, my classes still pretty lax.
<swoody> I'm not much of a writer, but would be willing to lend my advice and opinions
<drs305> I have no time this month but can help out next if it still needs work.
<bodhi_zazen> [VOTE]Review document for next month ?
<MootBot> Please vote on: Review document for next month ?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Silver_Fox_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<bodhi_zazen> starcraftman: I like it as a comprehensive docuement
<starcraftman> my idea, so guess I'm abstaining.
<starcraftman> +0
<Rocket2DMn> +1
<MootBot> Abstention received from starcraftman. 1 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 2 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 2
<bodhi_zazen> I do not want to see new members get too caught up, we need to assimilate them =)
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 3 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 3
<Rocket2DMn> you can vote on your own idea starcraftman :)
<swoody> +1
<drs305> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 4 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 4
<MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 5 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 5
<lukjad007> +41
<lukjad007> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from lukjad007. 6 for, 0 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 6
<bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: Maybe, but not really  needed, nobody seems to wanna vote down this idea :).
<bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 6 for, 0 against. 1 abstained. Total: 6
<Rocket2DMn> cool, good work starcraftman , i can see you put a lot of work into it
<swoody> yes, great work there starcraftman :)
<bodhi_zazen> Home page template is a great idea.
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: I try, once it's all in your head, just kinda flows out. :)
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]New Home Page Template
<MootBot> New Topic: New Home Page Template
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HomepageBTTemplate
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HomepageBTTemplate
<bodhi_zazen> I would suggest:
<starcraftman> There it is, I built it off mine, suggestions welcome.
<bodhi_zazen> 1. we include one or two additional examples for table lay out
<bodhi_zazen> 2. Put it in /Beginners/WikiTemplates
<bodhi_zazen> or some such
<starcraftman> 2. That sounds good, I wasn't actually sure what to name it tbh.
<bodhi_zazen> Suggestions for name ?
<starcraftman> long as its in the create new page template list for new people.
<swoody> +1 starcraftman
<Rocket2DMn> I like that starcraftman , my only suggestion would be to cut out some of the text at the top, templates don't need full explanations of how to do everything
<swoody> I don't think the name will have that drastic of an effect on it, as much as just having it available to use for newcomers
<starcraftman> 1. Is fine also, I was actually looking at more than one template, Silver_Fox_'s is nice and different enough, some might prefer it.
<starcraftman> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Silver_Fox
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Silver_Fox
<Silver_Fox_> Ah,  beat me to it.
<Rocket2DMn> +1 starcraftman , i was just thinking about that, we can have a couple of different template options.  Obviously they would be similar, but since people come with different experiences, they can find templates that match them best
<starcraftman> Silver_Fox_: Too slow :)
<Silver_Fox_> sorry starcraftman,  I was discussing matters of great importance with a fellow team member
<bodhi_zazen> OK, how about we put the template in place and starcraftman or Silver_Fox_ (or anyone else) can add to it ?
<starcraftman> Rocket2DMn: agreed, I'm only one person, I just made one for example this time. I guess I could template up anyones who volunteered theirs or they could themselves if available to do it.
<bodhi_zazen> [VOTE]Put Wiki Home Page Template in place ?
<MootBot> Please vote on: Put Wiki Home Page Template in place ?.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<Silver_Fox_> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Silver_Fox_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<swoody> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from swoody. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<bodhi_zazen> say /beginners/HomeTemplates
<ibuclaw> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from ibuclaw. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<bodhi_zazen> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from bodhi_zazen. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<starcraftman> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from starcraftman. 5 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 5
<Rocket2DMn> +1 , location TBD
<MootBot> +1 received from Rocket2DMn. 6 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 6
<st33med> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from st33med. 7 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 7
<Silver_Fox_> bodhi_zazen: I am more than happy to add to it sir. =]  I am getting quite good at wiki now.
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: sure, though maybe call page HomeTemplate1 and number subsequent additions.
<bodhi_zazen> \o/
<drs305> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from drs305. 8 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 8
<bodhi_zazen> naw starcraftman
<Rocket2DMn> I actually don't think the template necessarily needs to be inside our wiki area structure, it is a template available to anybody
<bodhi_zazen> we only need one page
<bodhi_zazen> with a few examples =)
<swoody> We can always edit it in the future, as well. Add more tables/menus for people to be able to implement
<bodhi_zazen> any additional votes ?
<bodhi_zazen> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 8 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 8
<Silver_Fox_> Wait starcraftman,  you think my wiki is good enough for a template?
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC] Membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  Membership
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man/Sandbox/Secret
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man/Sandbox/Secret
<bodhi_zazen> I agree we need to revitalize the membership process
<bodhi_zazen> I like the idea of having a few people "watching over" the process
<starcraftman> Alright, last topic, I outlined proposal fairly clearly I think. MOTU do something similar, I also included nhandler's email for reference. I think it's half decent, and people can always just still jump on IRC and do things way we do now.
<bodhi_zazen> we used to have a dedicated Education Team to do this, but the education FG kind of grew into the UCLP
<bodhi_zazen> perhaps revamp a "Mentoring" team / FG ?
<st33med> Nobody got that active in it
<starcraftman> Shouldn't be too high maintenance once agreed on, already got swoody on board. When ml gets moved to new more public one we can use it for people to send in contact info, and quiz (if thats agreed on).
<bodhi_zazen> I like the quiz done "LIVE" on IRC
<drs305> +1
<Silver_Fox_> How would it work with regards to the masters?
<bodhi_zazen> you get a better feel for people when they squirm
<Rocket2DMn> +1 live quiz
<bodhi_zazen> if they submit written responses
<bodhi_zazen> 1. It takes more time
<ibuclaw> 2. they can google it
<bodhi_zazen> 2. They can google and make themselves look good
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: can do, its fairly short I suppose. Do people like the sample questions, I alternated between ones testing knowledge and ones checking interest.
<bodhi_zazen> I will look at your questions starcraftman
<ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, it's like telephone interviews over *just* posting your CV :)
<st33med> LIVE from #ubuntu-beginners, its bodhi_zazen and the contestant, <insert contestant here>
<bodhi_zazen> How about if you revamp a "masters" FG or some such ?
<starcraftman> st33med: lol
<bodhi_zazen> people interested in assisting new members get up to speed ?
<Silver_Fox_> As always I am willing.
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: so, have all masters on master page and hand ful of them responsible for management and oversight?
<bodhi_zazen> should be low maintenance, but it would help if people watch it =)
<bodhi_zazen> +1 starcraftman
<Silver_Fox_> bodhi_zazen ^
<bodhi_zazen> We can elect "management" next month ?
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: righto, shouldn't be too hard. Would ya want a separate masters fg mail list in place? Or simply use same one we moving to with nhandler?
<bodhi_zazen> Which should get us to ...
 * bodhi_zazen is a strong believer in the unified theory of mailing lists
<bodhi_zazen> we only need additional ML if the one we have gets too active
<Rocket2DMn> mailing lists: old school still rulez!
<bodhi_zazen> [TOPIC]NEW MEMBERS
<MootBot> New Topic: NEW MEMBERS
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: righto then
<bodhi_zazen> do we have anyone up for membership this month
<st33med> YAYAYAYAYAYYAY
<bodhi_zazen> thanks for all that work starcraftman
<Rocket2DMn> none listed bodhi_zazen , i find it hard to believe with so many in our channel
<bodhi_zazen> I think the whole team appreciates your time on those pages
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: No worries, everyones welcome :)
<bodhi_zazen> Rocket2DMn: we have been failing the new members
<Silver_Fox_> I was considering putting mine in for membership at the next meeting
<Rocket2DMn> yeah bodhi_zazen , i know
<bodhi_zazen> pedor3005 ?
<bodhi_zazen> pedro3005 ?
<ibuclaw> Hellow, meeting started 50 minutes ago ;)
<bodhi_zazen> any other last minute nominations ?
<Hellow> haha
<Hellow> I've been doing homework :P
<bodhi_zazen> Raidsong ?
<starcraftman> lol Hellow
<bodhi_zazen> Pablo ?
<Rocket2DMn> Silver_Fox_, is your padawan not ready?
<bodhi_zazen> anyone want to vote for anyone ? Second those nominations ?
<Silver_Fox_> More or less Rocket2DMn
<Silver_Fox_> He's just not here Rocket2DMn
<Rocket2DMn> k, we should make a big effort to get lots of new members up for voting at the next meeting
<bodhi_zazen> any other team business ?
<Silver_Fox_> o/
<bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_:
<st33med> I
<ibuclaw> o/
<st33med> I'd like to make a motion...
<st33med> (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^ (>^.^)> <(^.^<) ^(^o^)^
<Hellow> erm
<Silver_Fox_> Well,  while we are here I would like to have the YNU FG's attention.  We need to arrange another meeting as the last one that was scheduled only I attended.
<drs305> That's pretty focused, Silver_Fox_
<Silver_Fox_> So pop by the channel #ubuntu-beginners-ynu
<Silver_Fox_> Indeed.
<st33med> YNU is...?
<ibuclaw> Young New Users
<Hellow> Young New Users
<st33med> ah
<ibuclaw> st33med, it was to help the main channel stay "child" free
<ibuclaw> well ... just to help mature up the main channel a bit
<starcraftman> ibuclaw: lol, like that'll ever happen.
<bodhi_zazen> Silver_Fox_: I think interest in the YNY will wax and wane depending on maturity in the channel
<st33med> What children are we talking about?
<ibuclaw> starcraftman, before you came, it was needed at the time
<bodhi_zazen> you st33med =)
<Silver_Fox_> +1 bodhi_zazen
<swoody> +1 ibuclaw
<bodhi_zazen> ibuclaw: any topic you have
 * Rocket2DMn will always be a child at heart
<st33med> so 18 year olds count as children, eh?
<st33med> :D
<starcraftman> +1 Rocket2DMn
<ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, yes
<Silver_Fox_> Rocket2DMn: Come join the team,  we have cake :)
<bodhi_zazen> st33med: Anything under 40 is but a child =)
<Hellow> Rocket2DMn: And cookies.
<starcraftman> Silver_Fox_: the cake is always a lie!
<swoody> Silver_Fox_, ah, I'm there :)
<ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, just a quick question. I know I ask this every so often ;)
<jgoguen> st33med: I think bodhi_zazen counts as children sometimes ;)
<ibuclaw> What is the current progress of the Ubuntu Learning Project?
<Rocket2DMn> jgoguen, s/sometimes/most-of-the-time
<jgoguen> Rocket2DMn: Fair :)
<bodhi_zazen> The UCLP is up and recruiting
<ibuclaw> bodhi_zazen, I may have some free time over the next fortnight.
<bodhi_zazen> come on bu #ubuntu-learning
<Hellow> UCLP?
<Rocket2DMn> I've seen you guys have meetings pretty regularly
<bodhi_zazen> we put some structure in place
<Hellow> Ubuntu Community learning Project?
<bodhi_zazen> [LINK]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/
<MootBot> LINK received: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Learning/
<st33med> Speaking of children, I once saw a person posting on how to make his ancient computer work with debian for his kid.
<bodhi_zazen> Any other topics ?
<st33med> I thought it was nice
<Hellow> o/
<bodhi_zazen> go Hellow
<st33med> gogogogogo
<Hellow> I would just like to mention that we have a few team members running for Ubuntu membership tomorrow at the Americas board meeting.
<bodhi_zazen> w00t !!!
<bodhi_zazen> who ?
<Hellow> I believe that they deserve our full support.
<drs305> when?
<Hellow> bodhi_zazen: nhasian and Wiebhalus (I always misspell that)
<Silver_Fox_> I thought the meeting was yesterday
<starcraftman> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<starcraftman> For those wondering who/when ^
<bodhi_zazen> thanks
<bodhi_zazen> other topics ?
<bodhi_zazen> 2 min left =)
 * Hellow gets back to his homework
<starcraftman> nope
<bodhi_zazen> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:59.
<bodhi_zazen> Thank you all for everything
<starcraftman> with 1 minute to spare!
<Hellow> Sorry I was 50 minutes late :P
<swoody> and thank you bodhi_zazen :)
<starcraftman> bodhi_zazen: thanks for chairing as always.
<swoody> and again, great work starcraftman :)
<bodhi_zazen> lol, you are too kind
 * slangasek waves
<evand> hi
<cjwatson> hi
<mvo> hello
<robbiew> yo
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Alpha 6 Deliverables
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 6 Deliverables
<robbiew> mvo: software store...will we be done by next thursday?
<robbiew> I suspect we will have UI changes post UI freeze :/
<mvo> robbiew: I got a list of critical UI issues from mpt today, I'm working through it
<robbiew> well
<mvo> robbiew: I don't think we should brea UI freeze for it, we broke enough freezes already
<robbiew> agreed
<slangasek> breaking UI freeze isn't the end of the world, we just need to let the docs folks know it's happening
<robbiew> true...but with this particular project...we need to enforce or changes will never stop
<mvo> the current doc (in ubuntu-docs) referes to g-a-i so we need to make sure this gets updated anyway
<robbiew> mvo: ivanka said she would have some folks help mpt
<mvo> robbiew: that is good news
<robbiew> with the UI stuff
<mvo> with UI coding?
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> they don't code
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> I would have expected the DX team to implement their designs...not you
<mvo> I'm not sure we need more UI spec changes at this point
 * robbiew notes this for 10.04 ;)
<mvo> :)
<mvo> for 10.04 I will refuse to implement anything that was not speced by the spec-deadline (or discussed at uds)
<robbiew> slangasek: we've done all we can with the Power Management stuff for this cycle...right?
<doko> hi
<robbiew> mvo: ack
<robbiew> and +1
<robbiew> doko: welcome back from holiday :)
<slangasek> robbiew: effectively; there may be a couple more clean-up bits to pick up opportunistically, but no more major reorganization from here
<robbiew> cool...I'm marking this done
<robbiew> ;)
<slangasek> there are still some acpi-support bugs that need fixed related to wireless hotkey handling, but I need the kernel fixed first before I can usefully test anything
<robbiew> liw: janitor UI improvements...done?
<robbiew> slangasek: ack..thanks
<liw> robbiew, yes; I've just asked mvo to upload my latest, hopefully last changes, fixing some bugs (such as translation templates)
 * mvo is getting the code as we speak
<robbiew> liw: will CJ clean up my kernels in the official release? I noticed it wasn't doing that
<robbiew> s/my/my old
<liw> robbiew, alas, no, the heuristics have been weakened (it was that or removing skype)
<robbiew> :/
<robbiew> hmmm
<robbiew> I'd prefer removing skype to be honest...the kernel cleanup was a big plus
<robbiew> i know mdz preferred it
<liw> I would've preferred that too, but the skype-wanters wore me down
<robbiew> ugh
<robbiew> can we change it back? or is it too late?
 * robbiew will deal with skype-wanters
<slangasek> wasn't there a way they were able to click to say "keep this package forever"?
<robbiew> yeah
<robbiew> that's what I did
<liw> slangasek, yes, but people didn't use that, I guess
<meanburrito920_> #xmonad
<liw> robbiew, it's an easy change to revert, though
<meanburrito920_> oops
<robbiew> liw: let's revert
<mterry> hi, sorry I'm late
 * mvo will wait with the sponsoring in this case
<liw> slangasek, are you ok with reverting the change? it means all packags not found in current apt repositires will be suggested for removel (hence, old kernels as well as skype)
<cjwatson> is there a bug reference for kernels vs. skype? it seems that we ought to be able to have our cake and eat it somehow ...
<slangasek> liw: as long as there's a clear way for users to say "keep this package and don't bug me about it again", yes
<liw> slangasek, there is
<cjwatson> even if it's by way of specific regexed exceptions or something
<liw> cjwatson, just a minute
<slangasek> cjwatson: it's the basic problem that once a package is no longer in the apt lists, we lose all information about its provenance
<mvo> liw: we can blacklist some known stuff there (skype, acroread, google-earth)
<slangasek> we can regexp it, sure
<robbiew> yeah...just keep a list of exceptions
<mvo> and for karmic+1 we should record it somewhere
<liw> I've been reluctant to add regexps by default, but the mechanism should be there
<liw> ok, so I'll bring back the skype killer and add the regexps
<robbiew> thanks
<robbiew> liw: guess you'll be needing an FFE ;)
<liw> cjwatson, #285746 is the bug report
<liw> if anyone can think of commonly used third-party programs, please tell me, so I can add them pre-emptively to the blacklist
<cjwatson> IIRC, update-manager has an explicit list of things that used to be in the archive and are no longer
<cjwatson> am I misremembering? because it sounds like that's really what you need
<liw> iirc update-manager handles some specific no-longer-existing packages, but does not handle the generic case
<liw> whereas janitor tries to handle the generic case
<mvo> update-manager has a list of stuff that moved components, but it would be trivial to extend it to ta list of stuff that vanished
<mvo> well, update-manager has a easy time, it checks what is obsolete before and after the update and keeps away from stuff that was obsolete before
<liw> but I'm not sure how a complete list would help... either the package is still there, or it isn't
<mvo> this is why it happyily cleans kernels, but leaves skype alone
 * liw notes there was a time the janitor would remove _both_ all kernels and skype
<liw> (which was the least good of all possible scenarios)
<robbiew> heh
<liw> anyway -- should we continue to the next topic?
<robbiew> [ACTION] liw to modify janitor to remove kernels...and save the precious skype
<MootBot> ACTION received:  liw to modify janitor to remove kernels...and save the precious skype
<robbiew> evand: slideshow is done, right?
<robbiew> except for the firefox stuff
<czajkowski> c
<robbiew> or are we waiting on the design team
<evand> robbiew: done
<robbiew> suhweet
<evand> it would be nice for them to help refine the design
<evand> but we're still in a good place if they don't
<robbiew> well...we've asked
<evand> still need to sort the Firefox icon
<robbiew> so have a response if a certain person says it's ugly ;)
<evand> exactly :)
<robbiew> thanks
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Alpha 6 Bugs
<MootBot> New Topic:  Alpha 6 Bugs
<robbiew> is bug 353534 valid of update manager?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 353534 in linux "dapper->hardy->intrepid upgrade path leaves user with unmaintained kernel" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/353534
<robbiew> fix released...nevermind :/
<mvo> well, not quite
<mvo> it should be fix commited
<mvo> (and needs a bit more testing)
<robbiew> so the kernel part is released
<mvo> (the update-manager bit of it)
<robbiew> but our part is not...ack
<robbiew> thanks
<robbiew> bug 386789
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 386789 in grub2 "'grub2' does not carry over correct 'timeout' time from 'grub'" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/386789
<robbiew> heh...high?...maybe medium :P
<cjwatson> not done yet, but still on my list
<robbiew> cool
<cjwatson> the whole timeout thing is a bit of a mess
<cjwatson> I've been talking with the design and DX teams about ways to improve it
<robbiew> yeah
<cjwatson> I think we have something more or less workable, but Ivanka wants to run it past a few people
<robbiew> saw that thread
<Daviey> cjwatson: Is that something that could be added to upgrade-from-grub-legacy ?
<robbiew> could we change the "Grub2 Loading" message to "Hit Shift for Grub Menu"?
<cjwatson> robbiew: it doesn't appear for long enough to be worth it - it may make more sense to display it later (i.e. if you reboot, you can hold down shift ...)
<cjwatson> Daviey: possibly, but it would be better for it to happen automatically on package installation
<robbiew> heh...well on my eeePC900 it does...but the reboot may make more sense
<Daviey> cjwatson: sure.
<robbiew> cjwatson: would it be painful to change it anyway?  Just as an added measure
<cjwatson> robbiew: it would, unfortunately - that bit's in assembly, and it's not printed as a single message
<cjwatson> you get different bits printed if it fails in the middle of the assembly bootstrap
<cjwatson> and there's only 512 bytes total to play with there, of which I think practically all are used
<robbiew> yuk
<robbiew> understand
<cjwatson> boot sector code :-/
<robbiew> moving on...
<robbiew> is bug 422101 a mobile/arm issue...or something we need to own?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 422101 in initramfs-tools "initramfs-tools package seems to fail postinstall on armel" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/422101
<robbiew> heh...or both
<cjwatson> I don't know, Oliver assigned it to himself so I assumed he was on top of it
<robbiew> works for me
<cjwatson> I don't think his analysis in comment #6 is correct ... but has he been asking about it?
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> not to me...just noticed it as something we usually look after...initramfs
<cjwatson> yeah, I'm sure we can look at it if asked, although it has a slight hardware-specific smell to me
<RoAkSoAx> n el facebook
<cjwatson> and certainly I haven't heard of it coming up on non-arm systems yet
<robbiew> ack...I'm fine with having Oliver own
<robbiew> and ask if needed
<robbiew> bug 407428 needs an assignee
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 407428 in udev "worker signal mask inherited by children" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/407428
<Keybuk> fixed upstream
<robbiew> so kernel?
<cjwatson> udev -> Keybuk
<robbiew> ;)
<Keybuk> no udev
<cjwatson> ?
<robbiew> yeah...I know...just wanted you to admit it
<robbiew> lol
<cjwatson> oh, right, reparsed :)
<robbiew> anyone noticing suspend not working with the -10 kernel?
 * robbiew has two netbooks that don't suspend anymore...and doubts keybuk's changes could have broken this (or at least hopes :P )
 * cjwatson isn't on -10 yet
<robbiew> no worries...will take it up with kernel folks
<robbiew> moving on
<Keybuk> robbiew: suspend works for me with my changes but -9
<robbiew> yeah...I think it's a -10 issue
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Sponsorship queue
<MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsorship queue
<cjwatson> *cough* I suck this week
<robbiew> heh
<liw> cjwatson, you level of suckiness is something mere mortals aspire to
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Good News
<MootBot> New Topic:  Good News
 * robbiew successfully built a source package and uploaded to his PPA
<robbiew> whoohoo1
<robbiew> whoohoo!
 * mterry reviewed his first MIR
<liw> robbiew, yay! mterry, yay!
<Keybuk> I've so far had no reports of breakage from the ubuntu-boot PPA updates
<Keybuk> *and*
<slangasek> multiarch hasn't burned down my house yet
<mterry> heh
<Keybuk> we've finally isolated the long-standing "east of UTC with hardware clock in localtime" fsck bug and it's a bug in the ext3/4 filesystem code upstream! :D
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> thank gawd!
<robbiew> lol
<mterry> :)
<mvo> wehh :)
<slangasek> hah
<mterry> Oh, I'm applying for MOTU soon, so leave nice comments (if you've sponsored stuff) on my wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/mterry/MOTU
<cjwatson> an admitted bug, too
<liw> mterry, congratulations on that
<mterry> liw, thanks!
<Keybuk> cjwatson: oh, you wait
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<Keybuk> I'm looking forwards to reading the commit log
<cjwatson> AOB:dpkg 1.15.4
<Keybuk> I bet he finds *some* way to blame Ubuntu
<robbiew> heh
<Keybuk> e.g. "Ubuntu users tend to stupidly set the hardware clocks to localtime, which causes an issue with..."
<cjwatson> due to debhelper changes and other similar things in Debian, we've accumulated a fair few packages depending on dpkg (>= 1.15.4) | install-info
<mterry> Keybuk, what's the bug number?
<cjwatson> i.e. basically a start on http://wiki.debian.org/Transitions/DpkgToGnuInstallInfo
<Keybuk> mterry: seb128 never filed it ;)
<cjwatson> dpkg 1.15.4 unfortunately has quite a few changes, but I don't think the world would end if I merged it into Karmic; does anyone feel strongly in the opposite direction?
<Keybuk> cjwatson: oh, I started seeing bug reports a while back about install-info issues/incompatibilties
<Keybuk> cjwatson: I blamed people installing texinfo
<Keybuk> (but that'd imply the depends were wrong anyway, no?)
<cjwatson> I think it might be easier to deal with them this way and fix up anything that goes wrong with dpkg, than to hunt-and-destroy all the install-info changes only to undo them all in karmic+1 again
<cjwatson> I'm not entirely sure, I'm only tangentially aware of this particular transition
<cjwatson> I think there were some known incompatibilities
<slangasek> dpkg updates seem to be a mixed bag generally
<slangasek> cjwatson: FFe bug if appropriate?
<cjwatson> similarly, although maybe with a bit less difficulty attached, I was wondering if we should merge the new debhelper with Steve's dh_installinit/upstart changes
<cjwatson> slangasek: sure, just wanted to ask here first
<cjwatson> since if everybody hated the idea then I wouldn't bother
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> dh_installinit would be nice... could cherry-pick that one if we want, too
<cjwatson> we've been keeping fairly up to date with debhelper this cycle
<slangasek> I have the patch to hand and stuff :)
<cjwatson> the other changes seem straightforward
<cjwatson> we're only three revisions back
<slangasek> no objections, then
<robbiew> any other other business?
<cjwatson> the behaviour change of -a in 7.4.0 is the only really substantial one
<Keybuk> cjwatson: err
<Keybuk> please don't
<cjwatson> Keybuk: no?
<Keybuk> not to be mean to slangasek, but his dh_installinit was wrong
<cjwatson> which one, dpkg or debhelper?
<slangasek> huh?
<Keybuk> the dh_installinit in the ubuntu-boot ppa does upstart right
<cjwatson> can we get that pushed to Debian before anyone starts to depend on the one in 7.4.1, please?
<Keybuk> it's not even in Ubuntu yet :)
<cjwatson> yeah, but 7.4.1 is in Debian
<Keybuk> sure, I'll send the updated version over as a bug
<cjwatson> thanks
<robbiew> anything else?
<robbiew> once....
<robbiew> twice....
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:53.
<robbiew> thanks all!
<mvo> thanks
<mterry> ta
<liw> thanks
<Keybuk> cjwatson, slangasek: the differences being that you need custom Upstart maintainer script snippets, because invoke-rc.d/policy-rc.d don't work if your boot is native upstart or using insserv
<Keybuk> (ie. Ubuntu or Debian respectively)
<Keybuk> that you can't assume that for every Upstart job there was previously an init script with the same name
<Keybuk> (many upstart jobs are new, or replaced udev rules, etc.)
<Keybuk> and that when replacing an init script, it helps to check not only whether the md5sum of the old init script is different, but that it's not a symlink to upstart-job ;-)
<Keybuk> because md5sum upstart-job != md5sum of whatever's in status ;)
 * Keybuk started with what was in the debhelper bug in debian and fixed the bugs as he found them
<Keybuk> I didn't realise it had actually gone *into* Debian yet
<Keybuk> (when I started, the bug was still open)
<slangasek> +               addsubstvar($package, "misc:Depends", "upstart (>= 0.6.0)");
<slangasek> uhm
<slangasek> what's that?
<Keybuk> it's a dependency on another package
<Keybuk> but that's not important right now
<Keybuk> remember
<Keybuk> we've had Upstart in ubuntu for quite a while
<Keybuk> and the job format isn't compatible
<Keybuk> and we've had packages that have shipped upstart jobs for a while
<Keybuk> so we need a versioned-depends to ensure they match :)
<slangasek> no, that dep is wrong, it violates the transition plan to force install of the upstart package
<slangasek> the upstart-job virtual package is the only dep we should need
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> disagree strongly
<slangasek> nothing was providing upstart-job before the job change
<slangasek> you can disagree, but you're still wrong :)
<Keybuk> upstart-job is only required if you're going to use upstart-job
<Keybuk> if you're not using that compatibility wrapper
<Keybuk> you only need to depend on upstart itself
<slangasek> *everything* is using that compatibility wrapper
<Keybuk> slangasek: you're wrong
<slangasek> that's the transition plan
<Keybuk> no it isn't
<Keybuk> it might be Debian's, but it isn't ours
<Keybuk> you only want compat symlinks in /etc/init.d for things that were *previously* in /etc/init.d
<Keybuk> (so that if people try and run them, they get mentally adjusted by the output to tell them where they went wrong)
<Keybuk> now, it's certainly arguable that the versioned dep should be in the } else { clause
<Keybuk> ie. if --replace, then upstart-job, otherwise a versioned dep on upstart
<Keybuk> and I'm not sure why I didn't just do that
<Keybuk> but it's not true that you're *always* replacing an init script
<Keybuk> as I've said repeatedly, sometimes you're replacing a udev rule
<Keybuk> and sometimes you're replacing a line from inittab
<Keybuk> (we don't have /etc/init.d/control-alt-delete -> /lib/init/upstart-job :p)
<Keybuk> and sometimes it's a new job entirely that only makes sense in the upstart world
<slangasek> hmm - I'm not sure dh_installinit should be responsible for installing such upstart jobs then
<slangasek> which don't resemble init scripts at all
<slangasek> or at least, --replace should be the /default/ behavior
<Keybuk> they're still technically init conf files ;)
<slangasek> heh
<Keybuk> I think it does make sense for dh_installinit to remain as "install conf files for init"
<Keybuk> am quite happy with the notion that --replace should be the default
<Keybuk> it could be renamed to be something like:
<Keybuk>   dh_installinit --upstart-native
<Keybuk> or --upstart-only
<Keybuk> perhaps
 * slangasek nods
<Keybuk> then if Upstart becomes the only init system, that just becomes a no-op
<slangasek> right
 * fader_ waves.
<marjo> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:00. The chair is marjo.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<marjo> Hi folks!
<bdmurray> hi
<pedro_> hello!
<marjo> Thanks for joining us today.
<marjo> Here's today's agenda
<marjo> #
<marjo> UbuntuBugDay highlights -- pedro
<marjo> # SRU testing -- sbeattie
<marjo> Pedro?
<pedro_> yeap
<marjo> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Bug Day highlights
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Bug Day highlights
<pedro_> the last Thursday we ran a bug day based on NetworkManager, ~147 bugs were triaged there
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090903
<pedro_> thanks a bunch to Kamus and Komputes for their work
<pedro_> Tomorrow: we're having a Firefox-3.5 bug day
<pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090910
<marjo> [LINK]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090903
<MootBot> LINK received:   https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090903
<pedro_> to help the team to discover issues and triage bugs as well
<pedro_> so if you wanna know a bit more about firefox and help the Ubuntu mozilla team, please join us
<marjo> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090910
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20090910
<pedro_> that's all from here
<marjo> OK, thx
<marjo> [TOPIC] SRU Testing - sbeattie
<MootBot> New Topic:  SRU Testing - sbeattie
<sbeattie> SRU Activity since 2009-09-02:
<sbeattie> * Jaunty: 2 new packages in -proposed (clamav, linux) and 3 pushed to -updates (gnome-terminal, langpacks, sun-java6)
<sbeattie> * Intrepid: 2 packages moved to -updates (clamav, nvidia-common)
<sbeattie> * Hardy: 1 new package in -proposed (linux-ubuntu-modules) and 2 pushed to -updates (postgresql-common, sun-java6)
<sbeattie> * Dapper: no activity
<sbeattie> Martin Pitt also expired some packages out of the SRU queue that had sat for too long in the -proposed queue without any feedback.
<sbeattie> Thanks to Imre Gergely,  Mikel Pascual Aldaba, Jim Evans, petski, Erik, GertjanVD, WaywardGeek, Earl Malmrose, Marcel de Vries, Rob Stone, Tom Gilissen, Stratus, toogreen, Ryan Tucker, and DenverSerrao for testing SRUs this week.
<bdmurray> Were the expirations in universe?
<sbeattie> bdmurray: they were a mix.
 * sbeattie doesn't have the list off the top of my head.
<marjo> sbeattie: anything else?
<sbeattie> But I know there was an intel xorg driver from intrepid as well as an update-manager fix from intrepid (compensating for evms) that got pulled.
<sbeattie> marjo: that's it, other than to say that assistance in testing proposed updates is always welcome.
<marjo> ok, thx
<marjo> Folks: are there any new topics you want to add?
 * cr3 raises hand
<marjo> cr3: go
<cr3> Bug reporting in Checkbox
<marjo> cr3: please
<cr3> Thanks for your feedback folks, I have made the requested changes and pushed a new package yesterday which should land in the repository today
<cr3> Following bdmurray's suggestion, we should now make sure that all the tests have corresponding packages defined in the requires field in test definitions
<cr3> I will follow up with everyone for their assistance where there might be confusion about the relevant package for a given test
<cr3> That's it, I really look forward to having quality bugs reported thanks to Checkbox.
<bdmurray> Sounds great thanks cr3!
<marjo> cr3: thx for getting that feature in
<marjo> folks: anything else?
 * ara raises hand
<marjo> ara: go
<ara> Mago is having a great momentum
<marjo> [TOPIC] Mago
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mago
<ara> there are new contributions from the community
<ara> I would like to thank new comers mikefletcher and jtatum, that are doing an amazing job
<cr3> ara: out of curiosity, have you been running the trunk on karmic?
<ara> To track the new stuff being implemented, I created a Roadmap page at http://mago.ubuntu.com/Roadmap
<ara> cr3, not for every test, sorry
<marjo> [LINK] http://mago.ubuntu.com/Roadmap
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://mago.ubuntu.com/Roadmap
<ara> That's it from me
<marjo> ara: thx for that update
<marjo> folks: anything else?
 * sbeattie just wants to mention that apport has finally been added to the default install ubuntu-server seed, so ubuntu-bug will be available by default on new server installs.
<pedro_> \o/!
<cr3> yay!
<fader_> w00t
<marjo> excellent!
<cr3> sbeattie: wait a minute! there are no bugs on ubuntu-server!
<sbeattie> cr3: of course. I just got it added out of completeness and a desire for bloat only.
<marjo> folks: anything else
<marjo> ?
<marjo> on behalf of the QA team, i want to thank everyone who contributed to testing Karmic Alpha 5
<marjo> Looking forward to good testing efforts and results on Alpha 6
<marjo> if there's nothing else, we can adjourn
<marjo> thx everyone; see you next week
<marjo> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:21.
<sbeattie> woo, thanks!
<pedro_> thanks
<davmor2> thanks
<mvo> sbeattie: anything you need from update-manager for xorg (I just saw that it came up in your meeting)?
<pen12346> http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2042&l=1357&u_id=363435
<pen12346> http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2042&l=1357&u_id=363435
<pen12346> http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2049&l=1359&u_id=363435
<leogg> @schedule managua
* Ursinha changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs
<MTecknology> apport notify-osd 426672
<MTecknology> sorry
<delphiexile> 3 min for the meet ??
<pedro_> yeah
<Grantbow> \o/
<nixternal> linuxmen: you around? we will be processing your app
<nixternal> lajjr: how about you?
<Ursinha> good luck everyone
<nixternal> AliTabuger7: you?
<nixternal> stochastic: and you?
<stochastic> yes
<nixternal> jbernard_: and you?
<Technoviking> #startmeeting
<jbernard_> o/
<MootBot> Meeting started at 17:00. The chair is Technoviking.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<linuxmen> yes
<lajjr> hello.
<AliTabuger7> I'm hwere
<lajjr> yep here.
<nixternal> ok, looks like Grantbow will go first...give us one second to make sure we have everything in order
<nixternal> we will call your name when we are ready for you and ask you to provide us with a little introduction
<DKcross> Hello guys, !
<nhasian> whew i made it
<fccf> Greetings! americas
<Technoviking> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<Grantbow> I'm ready when you are.
<nixternal> we will go in order, from top to bottom, from the list on that wiki page ^^
<delphiexile> ok
<DKcross> sure.
<nixternal> if we call your name and you aren't here, you will get pushed to the bottom, and possibly miss out on the process...so stay sharp, stay awake, and lets get ready to rock-and-roll!
<auro> hello everybody!
<scott_ev> duanedesign: hey man
<Technoviking> oubiwann you around?
<nixternal> Technoviking: already did all of that :)
<nixternal> Grantbow will be the first one on the list it seems
<nixternal> if it doesn't tab complete, they aren't here :)
<auro> im here to help translate Linuxmen's chat :)
<Grantbow> introduction now?
<auro> we are poor brazilian guys, so, be cool :)
<nixternal> one sec Grantbow... Technoviking will start it off
<Technoviking> Grantbow: seize the day:)
<Grantbow> Hi, I'm Grant Bowman.  I'm a member of the California LoCo.  My wiki page is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Grantbow
<nixternal> Technoviking: moobot!
<Grantbow> I'm not sure what else to lead with as much of it is on the wiki page.  I've been using Linux since 1994 and been active with Ubuntu for over a year now.
<Grantbow> I was previously with SuSE in Oakland from 1999-2001.  Can I answer any questions?
<nixternal> Grantbow: seems you are quite the community person...what issues do you see with the community at this time, and how can we go about making it better?
<Grantbow> Many of the issues I face in California are the standard ones of Linux adoption in general.
<Grantbow> There's a very vibrant Linux community in the SF Bay Area but our LoCo hasn't reached all of them yet.
<Grantbow> I'm working on that.
<Grantbow> The team will be going for approval Tuesday the 15th.
<ScottK> Any interest in branching out beyond community and advocacy work?
<Grantbow> I do code when I have to, but I often find solutions exist already.
<Grantbow> My community efforts keep me busy right now.
<Grantbow> I am hoping to help others contribute which is where I think I can do the most overall good for Ubuntu right now.
<boredandblogging> Grantbow: on your application, you say you want to help junior volunteers, can you elaborate on that?
<Grantbow> California is a bit odd.
<Grantbow> There's a huge Linux community but not a large Ubuntu focused community.
<nixternal> Grantbow: what does gaining Ubuntu membership mean to you? And by becoming a member, how can that benefit yourself as well as the greater community?
<Grantbow> I'll answer boredandbloggin first.
<nixternal> groovy
<Grantbow> I think that if people knew about the opportunities to contribute they would step up.  It's about educating.  I hope that answers your question.
<Grantbow> nixternal: With or without membership I'll keep advocating Ubuntu.  The benefits will be helpful in further my activities.
<Grantbow> nixternal: As I have met more of the active US national folks involved with Ubuntu I am looking for other ways to contribute as well.
<Grantbow> anything else?
<nixternal> Grantbow: seems you have a great list of testimonials from a bunch of amazing people...anyone here that hasn't given a testimonial for Grantbow feel like stepping up and speaking out?
<DWonderly> I would...
 * nixternal thinks the entire community left a testimonial already :)
<fccf> I would..
<nixternal> DWonderly: groovy, the floors is yours
<nixternal> fccf: same for you
<nixternal> DWonderly and fccf: what would you like to add?
<DWonderly> Grant has taken me under his wing in the Cal LoCo. Been very very helpful when I went through my annoying N00B days and continues to help any time of day or night. I have not had the pleasure of a face to face meeting but Grant treats everyone with respect and give you that feeling of brotherhood. The Ubuntu Community could only be better with Grant
<fccf> Grantbow has done an amazing job in helping to facilitate information sharing within the CaliforniaTeam, especially on IRC, and as I understand it is very helpful in bringing new and interesting ideas to the table... He has even helped me a couple of times in #ubuntu
<Yasumoto_> I already left a testimonial, but I'd like to add a \m/  during the meeting
<Grantbow> thanks guys.
<Grantbow> of the testimonials on the page the existing Ubuntu Members I believe are akgraner, itnet7, Nathan Haines and jono.
<nixternal> groovy, thanks guys
<jono> Grantbow, I certainly support you in your application
<nixternal> jono: you don't count!
<nixternal> ;p
<nhaines> ha!
<Grantbow> jono: tyvm :-)
<boredandblogging> lets vote
<nixternal> man, they are coming out of the woodwork...lets vote!
 * nixternal +1
<boredandblogging> +1
<cody-somerville> +1
<MTecknology> I thought you guys used [VOTE]..
<nixternal> MTecknology: some silly dude messed that one up :p
<Technoviking> +1
<nixternal> speak of the devil
<boredandblogging> lol
<pedro_> +1
<Technoviking> congrats sirs
<nixternal> groovy! CONGRATS GRANT!!! WELCOME TO UBUNTU!
 * stochastic has to leave at 23:30 for work, but is 5th on the list.  Seeing how long the first one is taking, he's getting worried...
<Grantbow> thank you very much
<nixternal> linuxmen: you will be up in one second... Technoviking will call your name
<lajjr> congraz grant
<Yasumoto_> epic :) congrats, dude
<nhaines> Congratulations, Grant.
<auro> Linuxmen: Technoviking irÃ¡ lhe chamar.
<Technoviking>  
<Technoviking> linuxmen your up
<nixternal> hey guys, I believe linuxmen will have a translator... pedro_ you can probably help a bit too :p
<linuxmen> YES
<nixternal> err, that was supposed to be a smiley
<auro> nixternal: txs!
<nixternal> auro: you are the translator right?
<nixternal> his very own Rosetta :)
<auro> nixternal: yes
<DKcross> :D Congrats! Grantbow
<auro> linuxmen will write in portuguese and i will try to make you understand :D
<auro> hahahahahaha
<pedro_> nixternal: well i only need to learn portuguese in 2 minutes ;-)
<nixternal> pedro_: you can lean it quicker than I!
<nixternal> the closes I come is swearing, and ordering more beer :)
<nixternal> closest*
<pedro_> haha
<auro> pedro: is as simple as chinese or russian, i think
<auro> :)
<AliTabuge> did I miss anything? webchat.freenode.net quit out on me.
<linuxmen> sÃ³ sei de uma coisa. I LOVE UBUNTU, UBUNTU IS MY LIFE
<Technoviking> linuxmen, please tell us about yourself, and post your wiki and LP page
<linuxmen> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Christiano%28Linuxmen%29
<linuxmen> https://launchpad.net/~christiano
<auro> linuxmen: fale um pouco sobre voce e poste suas paginas do wiki e do launchpad
<linuxmen> Meu nome Ã© Christiano, faÃ§o parte da comunidade brasileira desde 1996 e em 2005 faÃ§o parte da comunidade Ubuntu
<linuxmen> Venho fomentando, palestrando, divulgando e fazendo o trabalho de vendedor Avon desde entÃ£o....
<Technoviking> linuxmen: What do you do as the admin of the Ubuntu Games team?
<auro> my name is Christiano, im am part of brazilian's linux community since 1996, and part of Ubuntu community since 2005.
<linuxmen> Atualmento sou fundador do Loco Team Ubuntu SÃ£o Paulo e profissionalmente sou Analista de Suporte em soluÃ§Ãµes open sources
<AndreNoel> linuxmen is one of the first Ubuntu advocators in Brazil
<auro> since always i am speaking and advocating about ubuntu, like AVON salesman (door to door)
<auro> linuxmen: o que voce faz como administrador do Ubuntu Games?
<Technoviking> linuxmen: Were you involved in the excellent video of recording traditonal Brazilian music with Ubuntu from a couple of years ago
<nixternal> ahh, that was an awesome video... i so gotta get down to Brazil one of these day
<Pretto> nixternal, hehhehhehe
<linuxmen> Ajude a manter o site, sou mantenedor de alguns fÃ³runs e a parte principal Ã© divulgaÃ§Ã£o do projeto e fomentar pessoas para ajudar com o projeto em si (programaÃ§Ã£o, designer)
<auro> i am founder of Sao Paulo Loco Team, and professionally i work as an Open Source Support Analyst
<nixternal> heh, like me...he went to school for business and came out a geek!
<auro> Linuxmen: voce esteve envolvido, ha alguns anos atras, na excelente gravacao de video do Ubuntu com musica brasileira?
<linuxmen> Sim yes
<auro> Linuxmen: nixternal disse: que Ã³timo video, descerei ao Brasil qualquer dia desses :)
<auro> linuxmen helps to mantain the ubuntu games website, as well some forums. it's main goal is advocate the Ubuntu Games project, and make people help with design and programming.
<auro> ok guys, go on!
<AndreNoel> linuxmen and carlos donizete (coringao) do a great job with Ubuntu Games
<nixternal> linuxmen: do you have any plans on bridging out in the community, such as translations, packaging (I noticed debs for Ubuntu Games), bug triage, and such?
<pedro_> linuxmen: in your wiki page you said that you're part of the Sao Paolo LoCo team and founder of that, so i'm wondering how's the relationship between that loco team and the Brazilian one (Ubuntu-BR)?
 * auro and linuxmen are in a conference call to improve speed in translation
<AndreNoel> Ubuntu-BR has regional teams on brazilian states, and Ubuntu Sao Paulo is a very good team
<auro> Linuxmen are doing only beta testing and bug triage, because he does not have much programming knowledge.
<auro> btw, he is always asking people to help in such activities.
<Ursinha> auro, bug triage? ubuntu's you mean?
<nixternal> linuxmen: have you faced any difficulties or issues with the LoCo team, Ubuntu Games, or other projects you have worked on, and if so, how did you go about resolving them?
<Ursinha> I see no karma in LP, but I may be wrong
<nixternal> I don't either, already looked
<boredandblogging> linuxmen: have you organized any LoCo activities?
<auro> Pedro_: We have an excellent relationship along these years, developing sinergy to help other brazilian loco teams in a organized way.
<nixternal> linuxmen: how have the communications between yourself, the SP LoCo, and the Brazilian Council gone? Has there been any problems, and if so, were they resolved and how?
<auro> Ursinha: Yes, ubuntu bugs and alpha/beta releases like Karmic.
<Ursinha> auro, but why there's no record of that in LP?
<MTecknology> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~christiano/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INVALID&field.status%3Alist=WONTFIX&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.status%3Alist=FIXRELEASED&field.importanc
<MTecknology> That was long - sorry
<Pretto> Ubuntu-SP is sticking together Ubuntu-br  a few months ago, he claimed that was this way due to problems with ubuntu-br members.. so we are trying to glue all loco tems together
<Ursinha> is the karma borked again? :)
<MTecknology> http://tinyurl.com/linuxmen-bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://tinyurl.com/linuxmen-bugs
<MTecknology> Ursinha: no
<Ursinha> MTecknology, I see him as subscriber of that bugs, did I miss something?
<auro> nixternal: there was a problem with webhosting in Ubuntu Games, and it was solved with Linuxmen offering such service.
<pedro_> linuxmen: I'd love to have more help from my Brazilian friends on the BugSquad, but you don't seems to be doing triage there, in which products do you work on?
<MTecknology> Ursinha: no - I just checked why there's no karma - sorry
<pedro_> linuxmen: and where are you tracking the testing you've been doing for karmic, would be nice to know that as well ;-)
<auro> Usrinha: Linuxmen do bug triage and testing in Coringao's packages, not right into launchpad.
<Ursinha> auro, so it's a different thing than what you meant :)
<Ursinha> not ubuntu bugs
<Ursinha> MTecknology, actually I just wanted to know if I was really missing something :P
<Pretto> Ursinha, worried about bugs on LP :D hehhehhehe
<auro> pedro_: Linuxmen is actually working only on advocating Ubuntu and helping community members.
<nixternal> is there anyone in here that hasn't left a testimonial for linuxmen around that would like to say a few words before we go to a vote?
<AndreNoel> i support him and left a testimonial
<auro> Ursinha: is a little bit different, i agree. But there is various and serious efforts to help the community.
<Pretto> nixternal, we are trying to keep him together with ubuntu-br, he was apart for a long time
<nixternal> linuxmen: why were you apart from Ubuntu BR for a long time?
<Technoviking> linuxmen???
<auro> nixternal: Linuxmen always helped Ubuntu-BR, but he is foccused on the Ubuntu-SP efforts, because is a very large region.
<nixternal> groovy
<AndreNoel> sao paulo has the size of an european country
<auro> Recently the Ubuntu-SP coordination was given to Kemel, in that way Linuxmen will have some extra time to help the community in general, including UBuntu-BR again.
<nixternal> nice, that is good to hear
<nixternal> anyone else have any comments or testimonials?
<auro> i will make a testimonial: I have met Linuxmen since 2 or 3 months.
<auro> he came to mi house and is a very nice human being.
<auro> i call him now "the Ubuntu's Steve Balmer" :D
<nixternal> oh no
<AndreNoel> hehehehe
<Andre_Gondim> lol
<auro> hehehe
<auro> Nixternal: he talks a lot, and is pretty much convincent!
<Technoviking> It think we are ready to vote
<nixternal> hehe
 * nixternal +1
<AndreNoel> :)
<auro> thank you guys!
<boredandblogging> -1, I need to see more community work
<auro> good luck / boa sorte Linuxmen!
<Technoviking> -1 from me, while you have done some great work for your loco, I would like to to see a community work outside your loco
<AndreNoel> boredandblogging: he works very much out of web
<cody-somerville> +0
<pedro_> -1 from here, I'd like to see communication with the Ubuntu-BR as a whole and more work there as well
<delphiexile> +1 ; he deservs to be an ubuntu membre
<AndreNoel> he is always present on events
<AndreNoel> giving workshops
<AndreNoel> teaching and advocating
<Andre_Gondim> it's truth, I saw him at FISL working to Ubuntu-BR
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-09-10
<boredandblogging> then his approval application should reflect it
<boredandblogging> there is no list of any community activities
<boredandblogging> all vague statements
<auro> Pedro_: The Ubuntu-SP have a huge volume of people, is virtually impossibile be focused on Ubuntu-BR either. We have a continental country.
<Technoviking> linuxmen: 3 againist , 1 for, one neutral, We would like to see you try again in a couple of months
<nixternal> NOTE: Please be ready when you are called. When questioned, try to respond as quick as possible. time is running out :(
<stochastic> Technoviking, nixternal: Both lajjr and AliTabuger7_ have agreed (in a private chat) to allow me to go next as I have to leave at 23:30 for work and will otherwise not be around for my evaluation.  I didn't realize each person would take 30mins.  Is this okay with the board?
<nixternal> lajjr and AliTabuge: you don't mind that stochastic goes next?
<lajjr> Yes I did agree..if allowed.
<nixternal> rock on
<AliTabuger7_> I'm ok with it since he does have to be somewhere
<nixternal> that is totally groovy, thanks guys for letting him go
<stochastic> Thank you both for the very kind gesture
<Technoviking> we only have time for 1 or maybe 2 more people
<stochastic> I owe you each a beer/coffe/tea
<lajjr> np
<AliTabuger7_> As long as I get to go still, whatever.
<nixternal> stochastic: go ahead and introduce yourself...trying to push this a bit quicker so we can get some more in
<nixternal> AliTabuger7_: yes, you will get to go, we will not leave you hanging
<auro> thank you guys!
<stochastic> Hi I'm Eric Hedekar https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EricHedekar
<stochastic> https://launchpad.net/~stochastic
<stochastic> I'm a member of the Ubuntu Studio development team, a moderator for UbuntuForums.org (just in the Multimedia Production section), and a general advocate of Ubuntu
<Technoviking> hold a sec, we lost a board member due to battery issues
<stochastic> shall I repeat when pedro returns?
<stochastic> Pedro???
<nixternal> stochastic: continue on, 4 == quorum so we have that
<Technoviking> stochastic: go ahead
 * nixternal read "I'm a musician (with a BFA from STFU)"
 * nixternal wants to go to that university
<stochastic> I've steadily been getting more familiar with the Ubuntu contribution mechanism and have plans to grow my packaging list even larger in 10.04
<nixternal> stochastic: I see you like to package, any plans for Universe Contributors, MOTU, or Core Developer in the near future?
<nixternal> You should at least apply for Universe Contrib imho
<stochastic> nixternal, yes I'd love to be a MOTU eventually
<stochastic> this is the first step for me
<nixternal> you seem to be well on your way there...your packages look good :)
<nixternal> so do your boogs
<stochastic> boogs?
<nixternal> any plans on contributing to the greater Ubuntu project outside of Ubuntu Studio? Is there anything in Ubuntu Studio community wise you would like to see in ubuntu or vice versa?
<nixternal> bugs :)
<stochastic> I have a blog on open source audio at http://greyrockstudio.blogspot.com and I'm getting more and more active in the Vancouver LoCo
<Technoviking> stochastic: How do you plan to fix pulse audio:)
<stochastic> Technoviking, with hard determined bug fixing...
<stochastic> or with a sledgehammer
<stochastic> my next goal is to help get the Jack audio server into main so that firewire audio cards can integrate with desktop audio
<stochastic> and integrate with Pulse Audio
<nixternal> you aren't from the Burgers.... here is a goal for you and the LoCo Team. Aaron Seigo (aseigo on IRC) is one of the KDE leaders...get him to join the team and you are golden :p
<Technoviking> you talk about being a mod in the multimedia area, but you have not done much on the forums since April
<nixternal> stochastic: are you working with Daniel Chen (dtchen or crimsun on IRC) with Pulse Audio?
 * stochastic looks up Aaron Seigo
<nixternal> he just moved to Vancouver
<stochastic> Technoviking? I'm on the forums almost everyday
<nixternal> ScottK: you think he can get aseigo to join the loco? :D
<ScottK> ;-)
<ScottK> IIRC he uses opensuse.
<Technoviking> stochastic: sorry about that, just found a forum bug
<Technoviking> :)
<stochastic> nixternal, I'm only starting to get familiar with Pulse Audio, my main knowledge speciality is ProAudio
<nixternal> good testimonials...anyone here that would like to say anything further on stochastic?
<TheMuso> stochastic has been a great contributor to UbuntuStudio in recent times, both with bug fixes, package additions, and helping to move things like jack/ffado into main.
<fccf> stochastic is good at explaining things on ubuntuforums .. used his notes many times
<nixternal> oh no, you actually got TheMuso to speak up....trouble :)
<TheMuso> stochastic also managed to get several new packages into the Ubuntu archive, which are now shipped as part of UbuntuStudio./
<nixternal> TheMuso: how come you haven't pushed him to us over in MOTU land yet :)
<Technoviking> +1 here, great forums work and fanatastic work in universe
 * nixternal +1
<TheMuso> nixternal: I wasn't aware whether he was doing other things in the community, and I haven't had time to read his wiki page to find out.
<boredandblogging> +1
<nixternal> stochastic: seriously, start your universe contribs application, and then in the next couple of months, about the beginning of Karmic+1, go for MOTU!
<stochastic> I'm on my way to MOTU...
 * stochastic starts walking there right now.
<TheMuso> Bare in mind archive reorg is coming.
<nixternal> stochastic: haha
<nixternal> TheMuso: I heard that 2 years ago :p
<nixternal> ya, we are gearing up for that already in the MC
<TheMuso> nixternal: read the tech board minutes, and I think you'll find thigns are moving along.
<nixternal> yup, and we are starting to discuss it in MC on where and how to move forward
<cody-somerville> +1
 * nixternal is excited (kind of, I know it will be a ton of work)
<TheMuso> ok
<delphiexile> +1
<nixternal> CONGRATS stochastic and WELCOME TO UBUNTU!
<lajjr> congratz stochastic
<stochastic> Thank you all, and once again, thanks to lajjr and AliTabuger
<TheMuso> stochastic: Congrats!
<lajjr> np.
<lajjr> Be safe.
<delphiexile> congratulation stochastic
<AliTabuger7_> Have fun at work
<DKcross> congrats stochastic
<MTecknology> lajjr!
<nixternal> lajjr: you are next, please introduce yourself
<lajjr> ok..
<lajjr> My name is Leo Jackson I have started off with Ubuntu Dapper Drake 6.04 I was giving it a try, I continue to use it and changed to different versions while working at starting a new aspect of my Company. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/lajjr https://launchpad.net/~lajjr
<lajjr> I changed to 7+ then 8+ and now I have Ubuntu Jaunty 9.04 on my system. I started to try to help with Items I like. Art, Graphics etc. I enjoy Inkscape so I start answering some questions. I start to do some answers in Ubuntu and bugs.
<lajjr> I continue to add groups and start doing bugs. I also tried my hand out at packaging. Now I am at a road I want to do more so I am trying to mentor some and I added Ubuntu to my servers. I also test the new version now being Karmic.
<lajjr> I will try to work toward being MOTU, Ubuntu Developer, Bug Control, and kill bug #1
<ubottu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Timeout)
<TheMuso> good luck to those who remain. I gotta go.
<lajjr> I will be help mentor some to.
<lajjr> I am a programmer in my company.
<MTecknology> Can I make a shout out for him right away?
<lajjr> if allowed.
<Technoviking> MTecknology: go ahead
<MTecknology> Probably reading your profile atm..
<MTecknology> ok
<MTecknology> lajjr has been helping me learn how to triage bug lately. He also intends to teach me how to package for the motu. In addition to this, he plans to help me learn how to work with the Linux kernel for the kernel team. Considering he is on the kernel team and active in packaging and bug control, I feel he is extremely qualified to help tutor me. If you know anything about the Ubuntu-Drupal team, he's been active in developing a 
<MTecknology> As far as devoting himself to the community, I haven't seen many members go beyond his level. He's been an exceptional addition to every team I've seen him in. lajjr has been helping me learn how to triage bug lately. He also intends to teach me how to package for the motu. In addition to this, he plans to help me learn how to work with the Linux kernel for the kernel team.
<MTecknology> Considering he is on the kernel team and active in packaging and bug control, I feel he is extremely qualified to help tutor me. If you know anything about the Ubuntu-Drupal team, he's been active in developing a Planet module for Drupal which will mimic PlanetPlanet. As far as devoting himself to the community, I haven't seen many members go beyond his level. He's been an exceptional addition to every team I've seen him in.
<MTecknology> I can't see him being anything other than a shining model of what an Ubuntu member should be. One thing I've noticed is that he doesn't like to take credit for his own work. He's prefer to let a team take credit for the work he's done. This shows me that he really is devoted to working as a community member and contributing to a whole rather than getting credit for his own work. This is an ideal example of "The Spirit of Ubunt
<MTecknology> hopefully none cut off
<lajjr> I try to help more then do my own lol..
<lajjr> Ubuntu was cut..
<lajjr> Thank you MTecknology
<MTecknology> lajjr: np - all honesty
<nixternal> lajjr: I see you are intending on joining MOTU, but do not see your name on the list 'MOTU/Council/Meeting' or the MC Mailing List....if you go for MOTU, you also get Ubuntu Membership...you didn't need to become a member first :)
<lajjr> I would like to take some packages to their under me before doing that.
<nixternal> also, you might want to have packages uploaded to Universe before applying for MOTU, as all I see are packages in your PPA...do you plan on getting packages into Universe?
<Technoviking> lajjr: You seem to be a member on alot of LP teams, what areas interests you most and where do you want to contribute to Ubuntu most?
<lajjr> Yes. I do..I paln  on getting as many packages in as possible.
<nixternal> what is up with all of the languages on your LP page?
<lajjr> well I took Lang art in college I was a translator for a court and airport for 5 years.
<nixternal> I see you are a member of Kubuntu bugs, a team in which I am a part of...what have you done for that team and what are your future plans for that team?
<lajjr> well I joined in hope to help get KDE package in I test the packages I create. I want to help make it work for all desktops.
<lajjr> So I like the gnome but my wife is KDE so I want to make it possible for her to help and contribute.
<nixternal> ahh, now I know why your nick was familiar, you helped me with a drupal issue a few months back
<MTecknology> He's been teaching more than just me to manage bugs
<lajjr> The area that intrest me is graphics and programming.
<lajjr> yep a bit back.
<lajjr> yes I try to help and simplify any problems to new comers My company has 37 persons going to get on to launchpad I hope soon..
<nixternal> lajjr: any difficulties or issues you have experienced in the community and if so any ideas on how to fix them so they don't happen in the future?
<lajjr> John on my wiki i only one of them.
<nixternal> lajjr: are you afraid that you might be biting off a bit more than you can chew? You are taking on a lot of tasks in LP
<lajjr> well not difficulties to say but a clash of style maybe way to deal with issues..
<nixternal> one task I just looked at was Apport, in which your last comment was in June, and you set it in progress. I worked on the KDE front end for apport, how has working on apport gone for you?
<lajjr> no I will have some of my people take some once I help them get a better hang of things..
<lajjr> I like it Pitti is great.
<lajjr> I had a death in my family it kill a lot of time I am still getting some problems from a person problem from that.
<MTecknology> nixternal: From what I've seen, he seems to handle it very well. Which surprised me - I couldn't handle what's on his plate
<nixternal> I am ready to vote
<nixternal> everyone other RMB person ready?
<boredandblogging> i'm ready
<Technoviking> ready
 * kirkland has to run, but I wanna give jbernard_ my +1 and two thumbs up; my testimonial is in his wiki page
<MTecknology> [VOTE] lajjr for membership - even though I don't control the meeting
<MootBot> MTecknology, Only the meeting chair can do that
<nixternal> I am going to give a +1 because the work you have done has been solid..great testimonials...though I would say be careful biting off more than you can chew, and having all of that on your wiki and LP page look like you are trying to add fluff to make it look better...be careful
<Technoviking> [VOTE] lajjr for membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  lajjr for membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Technoviking> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from Technoviking. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nixternal> now you figure out how to work the thing
<boredandblogging> -1
<MootBot> -1 received from boredandblogging. 2 for, 1 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Technoviking> cody-somerville???
<cody-somerville> +0
<MootBot> Abstention received from cody-somerville. 2 for, 1 against. 1 have abstained. Count is now 1
<Technoviking> [vote] end
<MTecknology> kirkland: said +1
<MootBot> Technoviking, Either there isn't a meeting in progress, or there is already an active vote.
<nixternal> OK, so we have 2 for, 1 against, and 1 obstaining...that means there was no quorum unfortunately, which also means you didn't make it this time around...however I encourage you to come back, probably our next meeting with a little bit more refined wiki page to help us out a bit
<MTecknology> did his count?
<Technoviking> MTecknology: he is not a RMB board member
<nixternal> no, only RMB members...Dustin is a solar loving maniac :P
<lajjr> ok thanks..
<nixternal> #endvote
<MTecknology> boredandblogging: Any chance you could explain why you don't approve?
<nixternal> Technoviking: ^^
<nixternal> #endvote
<Technoviking> #endvote
<boredandblogging> there is a lot of stuff on the wiki page, but none of it in depth
<boredandblogging> think spread too thin
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE}
<nixternal> [ENDVOTE]
<Technoviking> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 2 for, 1 against. 1 abstained. Total: 1
<lajjr> ok..end vote.
<nixternal> it is one of those
<nixternal> there we go
<Technoviking> I'm sorry folks, but I need to go.
<nixternal> AliTabuger7_: you are up...gotta do this quick, as Technoviking has a mad wife waiting for him :)
<nixternal> argh
<AliTabuger7_> Hi, I'm Evan Boldt. I've been the main developer for SpreadUbuntu project for about a year now, and it has almost earned the official spreadubuntu.com domain name. The site is currently viewable on my host (http://spreadubuntu.neomenlo.org/).
<AliTabuger7_> I have personally spread ubuntu at my university by putting up posters, and when appropriate, helping them install it on their computer. I have personally installed ubuntu on at least 8 of other's computers (I wasn't really keeping track until recently).
<AliTabuger7_> While I plan to continue my dedication to SpreadUbuntu, I also hope to help develop some of the applications that make Ubuntu great. I've been teaching myself by writting unique scripts in Python. I'm also taking classes in C++, since I am a computer science major.
<AliTabuger7_> Ubuntu membership, to me, is an honorary thing: a way to be recognized for hard, loyal work.
<AliTabuger7_> I work most closely with Ruben Romero. Unfortunatly he couldn't make it to the meeting, but he did leave a testimonial.
<Technoviking> AliTabuglast one
<AliTabuger7_> I'll be quick to respond to your questions.
<boredandblogging> AliTabuger7_: are you just waiting on canonical for the domain?
<nixternal> AliTabuger7_: we know you rock out the Spread Ubuntu..and for that there is entire group of people who are grateful, now with that said, here we go :)  Any plans on coming out of the marketing arena?
<AliTabuger7_> yes
<AliTabuger7_> yes
<nixternal> damn, you are in my LoCo dude...have we met yet?
<nixternal> I started and run Ubuntu Chicago :)
<Technoviking> pleia2 is stepping in for me, I'm telling the meeting is ending, but not really
<AliTabuger7_> I'm not in a loco, i don't think. I am in the chicago area, so I probably did join that group.
<Technoviking> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:46.
<nixternal> AliTabuger7_: where at are you?
<AliTabuger7_> We are only waiting on canonical. They have yet to give us any feedback on whether they will give it to us or not.
<AliTabuger7_> I do hope to become a developer eventually, and I am actively working on improving my skills
<Technoviking> The end is still continuing:) sorry about that
<ScottK> Waiting for what?
<AliTabuger7_> DeKalb. I go to NIU.
<nixternal> AliTabuger7_: rock on, I just east of St. charles...I ride my bike out by you :)
<AliTabuger7_> Waiting for Canonical to direct the SpreadUbuntu.com domain.
 * nixternal almost finished his Masters at NIU
<AliTabuger7_> I'm also contemplating starting back up the NIU LUG. I'm not sure about that yet though. It doesn't seem productive enough for me.
<nixternal> AliTabuger7_: if we (Ubuntu Chicago) get the Ubuntu Global Jam rocking in the city, you down on coming out? join us in #ubuntu-chicago - we can continue it there later :)
<AliTabuger7_> I'd definitely want to go.
<nixternal> groovy
<AliTabuger7_> I'd also like to point out that there is a lot of hidden complexity behind SpreadUbuntu that I'm responsible for. You don't often see a site that is that good at multilingual interfaces & content for that reason.
<pleia2> +1 from me, amazing project work, like most locos we use SpreadUbuntu for Ubuntu Pennsylvania - many thanks! :)
<boredandblogging> +1
<AliTabuger7_> SpreadUbuntu is extremely popular in France (more so than the america's combined). It really does have a global impact.
<AliTabuger7_> Thanks!
<nixternal> +1 - ya dude, keep spread ubuntu rocking...and now that I know you are local, we gotta get everyone together dude, have you present it to Ubuntu Chicago, and maybe even the Chicago LUG, as this type of project can also help non-Ubuntu open source projects which totally rocks!
 * nixternal remembers when he worked on the original spread ubuntu in like 2005....jeesh what a headache that was
<AliTabuger7_> Yah. I actually talked with a GNOME guy who was looking at adopting our framework. He has yet to make his final decision.
<nixternal> cody-somerville: wanna vote?
<nixternal> I won't hold talking to a GNOME guy against ya :p
<cody-somerville> +1 :)
 * nixternal notes that cody-somerville needs to take a break from some code
<AliTabuger7_> It was the guy that runs Phoronix. And we use GNOME, so of course you wouldn't.
<nixternal> AliTabuger7_: CONGRATS AND WELCOME!
<fccf> When is the next Americas Board meeting?
<nixternal> fccf: we are going to talk about that after this meeting...I would like to do it very soon so we can clear our list
<pleia2> fccf: two weeks from tonight, same time
<nixternal> oh, there you go
<pleia2> hopefully :)
<nixternal> I didn't even know that one :)
<tenach> I apologize for not making the meeting sooner :(
<fccf> pleia2: TY
<pleia2> we'll update the wiki with the date soon
<AliTabuger7_> Great! So, i'm a little confused as to what I have to do now...
<nhasian> tenach, i was wondering where you disappeared to
<tenach> I'm in the middle of moving and lost track of time.
<nhasian> tenach, they didnt get through the entire list of member applications so there will be another meeting in two weeks
<nixternal> AliTabuger7_: I just did it, I added you to the "Ubuntu Members" launchpad team
<nixternal> within the next few days you should have a new email address <lp_id>@ubuntu.com
<nixternal> AliTabuger7_: join #ubuntu-chicago so we and others can chat in a bit
<boredandblogging> meeting over
<pleia2> right, so we need to wrap up the meeting
<DKcross> nixternal,  no more for today?
<boredandblogging> we'll schedule another one soon
<nixternal> DKcross: not today unfortunately...today we were hopign to get all of the August people done, but we had members who had to leave or face certain death
<tatica1> hahahaha
<nixternal> in 2 weeks...we will have another meeting... jbernard_ will be first and you will follow
<DKcross> ok:)
<fccf> question about quorum ... LP shows 9 active members... how can 4 be a quorum?
<nhasian> aight see you guys in about two weeks
<nixternal> err, actually nhasian will follow jbernard_ and then you DKcross and then fccf...make sure you guys are ready, so we can bombard you fast and heavy
<fccf> nixternal: bring it on ... see ya in 2 weeks
<nixternal> oooh, I like a challenge :)
<nhasian> nixternal, this is the 2nd time i got bumped.  so third time is the charm :)
<nixternal> nhasian: did you readd your app to the wiki? cuz it says Sep. 5th
<nhasian> nixternal, yeah originally i added it several months ago.  i just readded it recently
<nixternal> ahhh, OK, we will have to make sure we fit you in then :p
<DKcross> ok friends, the i will wait the new date for the meet
<fccf> AliTabuger7_: Is your B-day 8/21/89 ... I am exactly 10 years your senior
<AliTabuger7_> nice
<fccf> Cool to know
<huats> dholbach, nxvl hello
<dholbach> hiya
<dholbach> do we have porthose here too?
<huats> charlie is not here yet
<huats> we might consider to wait for him a bit...
<huats> hey porthose
<huats> :)
<huats> we were waiting for you to start :
<huats> :)
<porthose> hey huates
<huats> nxvl: around too ?
<porthose> sorry I'm late
<dholbach> hi guys
<porthose> hey dholbach
<huats> porthose: not a problem..
<huats> seems like nxvl is idleing :)
<dholbach> porthose, huats: let's just get going - nxvl can catch up when he arrives
<dholbach> can you maybe sum up what the current state of MOTU Mentoring is?
<huats> sure
<huats> nxvl: may I ?
<huats> sorry porthose: may I start ?
<porthose> huats, please do
<huats> ok
<huats> so the mentoring has received quite a lot of demands in the last few months
<huats> (I would say of mentor requet)
<huats> request
<huats> and it has started to be quite complicated to be able to match all the demands with a corresponding mentor
<dholbach> do you have any numbers? like how many current mentors, how many mentees, how many people on the waiting list?
<huats> dholbach  I can out that during the meeting
<dholbach> no worries - I just wanted to get a feeling for what's happening
<huats> I can find out during the meeting (is the corect phrase to read)
<huats> :)
<huats> the thing is that since it was more complicated to match a mentor/mentee
<huats> it started to become more time consuming
<huats> and we have started to be a little overwhelmed I think
<huats> due also to our various other involvments
 * porthose agrees
<huats> (I am trying to be as neutral and fair as I can)
<dholbach> sure
<huats> I have tried to fill the gap for some time
<huats> porthose did it also after me
<huats> nxvl has been a little less involved for some time
<dholbach> I guess we're always going to need more mentors, we're always going to have more people looking for a mentor, etc.
<huats> (it is just the result of a discussion we had together)
<dholbach> what do you think is the best help we give new folks who need help?
<huats> I do think thet we might first start to reorganize ourself
<huats> currently when we receive a request there is nothing done...
<dholbach> right
<huats> I do think that putting that on a real queue might help us
<huats> I am saying that here for the first time (without ever mentionning that to porthose or nxvl)
<huats> we should consider to add that waiting list in bzr (like we do so far)
<dholbach> so you think there's nothing really wrong right now, it's just the reception that needs to change organisation?
<huats> currently the only trackig of the waiting list is the "starred" email in my gmail account on the label "mentoring-reception"
<dholbach> and maybe a call for more mentors and some fresh blood in the reception?
<huats> it is not enought
<huats> I have done regular calls for mentors
<huats> without any luck (or very few)
<huats> it might be great to ask new motus to be involved in that (throught the MC)
<porthose> mentors are always needed, but yes some additional help with receiption would be nice
<dholbach> I wonder if we could identify what help new folks need and if we maybe can find a way to help them more easily?
<huats> actually I am a bit uneased with the addition of new blood to the reception
<huats> I have to say
<huats> I mean
<huats> we are lacking some organisation so far
<huats> and I fear that if we add new people it might be worst...
<huats> I do think that new blood might be needed indeed but AFTER a reorganisation of our team work
<huats> I know nxvl is planning to help out more right now, and we'll decide of his involvment in the next few months after giving a look at his capability t be involved more
<dholbach> right now I'm thinking: maybe we can categorise ways in which new folks need help and try to solve those problems differently to get the workload down for current mentors
<dholbach> like for example reenergise the motu-mentors list
<dholbach> or boosting the on-call review idea somewhat (ubuntu-devel@ discussion right now)
<dholbach> so people can always ask their questions
<dholbach> and always get their stuff reviewed
<dholbach> there's surely going to be some remaining open questions or requests for help, but it might be less than it is right now
<dholbach> nxvl, porthose, huats: do you think that makes sense?
<huats> it is true that we might consider that #ubuntu-motu is sometimes quite similar to questions we should encounter on @ubuntu-mentors
<porthose> it would surely help
<huats> actually I have some ideas to improve the mentoring program too... or at least so things / way to do  / needs to be done
<dholbach> maybe for people who now get on the waiting list, we could tell them about the other current initiatives to they don't feel like they are blocked at the moment
<huats> porthose: did you had a lot of answer on your email aboutthe status of mentees ?
<huats> dholbach you are right
<huats> clearly
<porthose> I think four mentors responded
<huats> it is really few
<huats> ...
<porthose> and one was a request to be removed from the list
<dholbach> I have similar experiences with questions I asked regularly or mails that are sent regularly
<dholbach> there must be a better way of finding out what we're after :)
<huats> I do think that currently we (as the reception) have a lack of communication with mentors/mentee
<huats> may be we should define a new way of intreacting
<huats> like : asking regular reports from the mentee (like one every 2 weeks) and only 2reports of the mentors
<huats> something brief
<dholbach> people don't like writing reports :)
<huats> but it might help to keep a link
 * dholbach nods
<huats> I am saying that in order to try to limit the burnout
<dholbach> right
<huats> we (receptionninst) also might need to meet up regulary like we did...
<huats> porthose: agree ?
<porthose> yes
 * huats is really sorry for his really bad writing today (worst that ever)
<huats> ok
<huats> here are some actions we might have :
<huats> try to find out new wa of interacting
<huats> reorganisation of the reception (queue, meeting)
<huats> announce future mentees to try to find out other actions to do during the process of their application
<ScottK> Personally I have no idea where mentors are ineracting with their mentees.  It doesn't seem to be much on #ubuntu-motu.
<dholbach> the feeling I get at the moment is that the mentoring doesn't really scale very well - I don't think we ever announced it publicly (like in blogs or something), but as there seems to be demand for help I feel a bit like we should think about how we can provide help more easily
<huats> ScottK usually mentors / mentee are doing a close relationship
<ScottK> I'd like to suggest they get encouraged to discuss stuff there (that also gets mentees used to interacting with more than their mentors)
<ScottK> huats: Doesn't mean they can't talk in public.
<huats> I really agree
<ScottK> When they do so, the people that just watch the channel can learn too
<dholbach> I could imagine that parts of it is email
<huats> we should emphasize that : the mentors/mentee relationship should be string but not exclusive
<huats> ...
<ScottK> Also when mentors give bad advice, there are people there to give a quality check.
<ScottK> So maybe mentors learn too
<porthose> true
<huats> dholbach I do think that the various sessions that happened lately should be great for mentees...
<ScottK> It also helps build a sense of community
<dholbach> huats: right, that too
<huats> mentees should be more than encourage to attend that
<huats> it would down the load of the mentors
<dholbach> what do you think about doing a survey with the current mentees and ask them what kind of help they need, what kind of questions they have and what needs to be better?
<huats> dholbachsounds great
<huats> I also think  it might be great to write a mentor HowTo...
<huats> to help mentors to deal with the mentoring is a way to lower their load and to share the experience : using of @ubuntu-mentors, using of #ubuntu-motu instead of private chat
<dholbach> that would give us ideas for what we can improve, so there should be less need for mentors and less work for everybody
<huats> ad things like that
<dholbach> *nod*
<huats> ok
<dholbach> the reviews on irc and stuff
<huats> exactly
<huats> reviews are great for mentors
<huats> mentees sorry
<dholbach> I'm happy to help with that survey
<huats> (well mentors too :))
<huats> ok
<huats> thanks daniel
<dholbach> and also with some kind of short description of the initiatives we're offering, the docs we have and stuff
<ScottK> dholbach: Just to mention it, these are all the same reasons I don't like the idea of a separate channel for reviews.
<dholbach> I could imagine that'd help a lot
<huats> ACTION : Dholbach to tackle the survey to mentors to know their opinion
<dholbach> huats: help with it - not do it alone ;-)
<dholbach> huats: I'll send over an email after the meeting
<huats> oh I misread :)
<huats> sorry :)
<huats> ok
<dholbach> ScottK: I think we can have that discussion separately - I'm just waiting for input from more folks now and think we can try either option and see how it works
<huats> porthose: can you work on the survey with daniel ?
<ScottK> dholbach: That's fine.  I just wanted to mention that I thought there was commonality in the reasons.
<porthose> huats, I should be able to
<huats> I willbe happy to write the mentors HowTo and to propose a new organisation of the reception
<dholbach> ScottK: what do you mean? I'm not sure I understood the last sentence
<huats> (of course I am saying that as I will write stuffs to be approved...)
<dholbach> I'll add it to my todo list and send to all of you
<ScottK> dholbach: I think that the reasons why it's not a great idea for mentor/mentee discussions to happen off the main channel are similar to why I think reviews off the main channel aren't a good idea.  That's all.
<dholbach> and then we can see what we think needs to be improved or better documented or announce or something :)
<huats> dholbach I agree
<huats> I add to my TODO list too...
<dholbach> ScottK: ok
<huats> I do think many new mentors might be interested in joining if e can provide a mentors HowTo
<huats> (new mentors are usually a bit freaked about doing wrong stuffs)
<dholbach> that's probably something we can discuss very well on one of the mailing lists
<nxvl> sorry, i get to much into my code and didn't check the hour
<huats> indeed
<huats> no problem nxvl
 * nxvl reads scroll
<huats> we have a  full list of actions for you :)
<huats> :D
<porthose> another problem I see is that receptions never get contacted when a mentee goes MIA
<dholbach> that's probably all I have for now: the survey to identify areas that relieve the mentors somewhat and some better documentation for people who might not find a mentor or be on the waiting list
<huats> MIA ?
<dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~$ wtf mia
<dholbach> MIA: missing in action
<dholbach> daniel@miyazaki:~$
<huats> ok :)
<nxvl> or Miami Airport
<nxvl> :D
<porthose> hahaha
<huats> indeed
<huats> porthose: it is something to be put on the mentors HowTo
<porthose> cool
<nxvl> i also remembered to suggest to have some guidelines for metors
<nxvl> mentors
<nxvl> as in the steps to guide their mentees trough
<nxvl> as in "first teach X, then teach Y, then Z" and so on
<nxvl> just to have as a guide to know what should the mentee know after the programme
<huats> nxvl: have you backloggued the whole stuffs ?
<huats> :P
<Riddell> is this channel being used in the next hour?
<huats> Riddell: no idea
<huats> Riddell: do you have a meeting here ?
<Riddell> we hope to but we can move to #kubuntu-devel if there's already one ongoing
<nxvl> huats: nope, just go trough quickly
<porthose> huats, if there is nothing else I have some appointments I need keep
<huats> Riddell: I think we are almost good
<huats> nxvl: because I was supposed to send a mentors HowTo (well to write one at least)
<huats> porthose: sure I think we are good
<huats> dholbach ?
<huats> anything to add ?
<dholbach> no, as I said above - that's all I have for now
<huats> ok
<huats> great
<huats> then I think we are good
<huats> I will send an email with a date for a future meeting date...
<Riddell> apachelogger, seele, JontheEchidna, Nightrose, rgreening: council ping
<huats> to see how far we have been able to work one :)
<seele> Riddell: pong
<Nightrose> o/
<apachelogger> hullos
<JontheEchidna> o/
<huats> good meeting ninjas !
<huats> :)
<rgreening> pang
<Riddell> thanks all for coming for what was not a very well publicised meeting
<Riddell> agenda as ever is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> I don't think we have anyone for membership?
<Riddell> first agenda item is from me
<Riddell> I'd like to propose we include the message indicator in Kubuntu by default
<Riddell> I find it very useful and a large improvement on what went before
<apachelogger> isn't it in already?
<JontheEchidna> apachelogger: yes, for testing
<Riddell> yes but thus far only for testing and feedback
<rgreening> by include, you mean what exactly?
<Riddell> rgreening: in the default plasma setup
<seele> what happens after v2 when they change the purpose of the indicator? will there be an option to remove it in karmic +1 if necessary?
<rgreening> so, every user has it on by default?
<Riddell> rgreening: every new install, probably not upgrades
<rgreening> I think that's not what we talked about and agreed to at UDS.
<seele> rgreening: i thought it was the notifications that was discussed at uds, not the indicator
<Riddell> seele: we can indeed.  better of course if we make sure we poke agateau and others to have v2 do what we want it to
<rgreening> as it's still very experimental and in development. I wouldn't be happy with it on by default (at this point)
<seele> Riddell: that would mean a fork from the ayatana project which doesnt sound reasonable
<rgreening> hmm... I was thinking it was the whole Ayatana project scope seele
 * ScottK waves
<Riddell> rgreening: I wouldn't describe it as experimental and in development, as I say it works well.  agateau?
<yuriy> i haven't seen the MI yet but I don't see why i wouldn't be default
<agateau> Works fine for me
<ScottK> My recollection is at UDS we discussed having it present by default, but not enabling KDE apps to use it by default
<Riddell> yuriy: see this blog post for a summary http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/4043
 * Nightrose is very happy with the way notifications are handled in plasma right now tbh
<rgreening> ScottK: present, as in in the taskbar or present on the CD and installed
<ScottK> rgreening: If there are no messages, it should be invisible, so what's the difference?
<yuriy> Riddell: yes i saw that, i mean i havent seen it in action
<agateau> Nightrose: this is about indicators, not notifications
<Riddell> ScottK: that's not how it currently works, there's no hidden mode
<ScottK> The idea was (as I wrote to the ML yesterday), if one is using something like pidgin that unconditionally expects MI, then it ought to just work.
<rgreening> ScottK: does the "invisible" work now?
<ScottK> Apparently not.
<agateau> no it does not
<Nightrose> agateau: eh sorry - that's what i meant
<ScottK> I don't think it's a big deal to have it in the tray and people who don't want it remove it.
<agateau> I am worried about having an invisible plasmoid in the panel
<agateau> how would user handle this?
<agateau> seele, what's your opinion on this?
<rgreening> Riddell: I'll +1 if a) the invisible works and b) apps are not configured by default to have it enabled
 * apachelogger agrees with agateau
<seele> i'm ok with it being there by default as long as it is still the v1 concept
<rgreening> hmm...
<seele> i have concerns about what htey want to do with v2 and future versions
 * rgreening does too
<Riddell> rgreening: that's not what I'm proposing.  I'm proposing we have it on by default and apps to use it.  it's far better than annoying popup notifications
<agateau> seele: i was wondering about the invisible or not
<ScottK> I think the future versions likely actively conflict with some stuff KDE has planned
<seele> oh
<Riddell> it's in KDE SVN by the way http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/kdereview/plasma/applets/message-indicator/
<yuriy> did quassel patches for MI get in?
<ScottK> They did.
<rgreening> Riddell: and didn't asiego trash it on the ML
<seele> well.. being invisible when there are no messages would better support the purpose of the messge indicator instead of altering the icon
<Riddell> yuriy: yes although there's some stuff to be fixed in them
<ScottK> rgreening: No, that was the KDE libs stuff for notifications
<rgreening> ah
<agateau> seele: I think I could influence the API to have a "only running apps" flag
<Nightrose> looking at aaron's comment in the blog linked makes me crinche
<seele> agateau: do apps register in kde like they do in gnome? i didnt understand how that worked
<seele> so if no apps which use the MI are running, it should definitely be off
<rgreening> Riddell: personally, a default on at this point seems a bit pre-mature. THere are still too many questions we all have
<seele> otherwise it's useless
<apachelogger> hm
<seele> rgreening: to be fair, it is 100% for testing purposes, specifically in combination with the ayatana style notifications
<apachelogger> you know
<apachelogger> Nightrose got a point there
<ScottK> Which comment?
<Nightrose> the first one
<agateau> seele: don't you think it won't be very userfriendly if the user drop the plasmoid on the panel and nothing appears?
<rgreening> seele: I agree, but the question at hand is make it default for all users, not "opt in"
<apachelogger> the one were aaron said it is no goody good
<apachelogger> TBH I would rather not piss off upstream even further
<ScottK> Nightrose: Link?
<apachelogger> me that is
<apachelogger> ScottK: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/4043
<seele> agateau: how people add plasmoids is a separate problem, and yes it is a problem
<ScottK> Thanks
<seele> part of the problem with upstream is that they only finalized the systray spec last week at tokamak
<seele> so there was no way of knowing what they were planning and how to work with them
<ScottK> seele: Then how is it there are apps in KDE 4.3 using it?
<seele> ScottK: i dunno, it's still in my unread box :)
 * JontheEchidna would rather enjoy upstream not being PO'd at us too
 * ScottK thinks this would have been much better as a systray app (and said so all along)
<agateau> to me indicators are really different from the new system tray spec
 * agateau can't remember when ScottK said so
<ScottK> At UDS for a start
<ScottK> On #ayatana a few times too.
 * ScottK even got jumped on by tedg for it.
<Riddell> I'd rather see all of the plasmoids power, device notifier and message indicator in the systray but that's not how they're coded currently
<ScottK> Yep.
<JontheEchidna> ^Things are looking better in 4.4 for that regard
<ScottK> I think fundamentally because Ubuntu apps are expecting a MI to exist, we need to ship it.
<agateau> 4.4 will make it possible to run palsmoid in systray
<rgreening> IMO, until we resolve some of the key questions, I do not see us making this a default (yet). If we can resolve the issues at hand, its a possibility...
<Riddell> rgreening: what are your issues?
<ScottK> People use Gnome stuff in Kubuntu and we ought to (as best we can) make that work.
<apachelogger> ScottK: or the ubuntu apps could be fixed, just like the patches against KDE apps should not expect indication when there is no indicator (as said in my mail from yesterday)
<rgreening> Riddell: all the questions we have presented thus far..
<apachelogger> all the same for ubuntu apps
<ScottK> apachelogger: Who'se going to write these patches?
<apachelogger> *shrug*
<ScottK> That's the problem.
<ScottK> I think they are what they are and we aren't going to change them.
<rgreening> Is there a new package of MI?
<apachelogger> well, I suppose we should limit the application of the indicator to that use case for now
<rgreening> Currently mine doesn't behave the way I expect.
<apachelogger> see where KDE goes with the systray
<apachelogger> and let both mature
<ScottK> I think that's reasonable.
<JontheEchidna> yeah, is there a new version of the plasmoid? Mine currently still doesn't bring apps to the front
<Nightrose> +1
<agateau> JontheEchidna: it depends on the app actually
<agateau> I fixed the Kopete bug
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: I think he's stil working on that.  Turn focus stealing prevention off and it should work.
<JontheEchidna> agateau: konvi and kmail, neither do anything really
<rgreening> Kopete doesn't come forward for me
<ScottK> Bug discussion probably doesn't need to happen in the meeting.
<agateau> rgreening: uploaded a new patchset for this, should be working once it's integrated
 * agateau agrees with ScottK
<agateau> still, is invisible mode a blocker for you?
<ScottK> Riddell: Is the kopete systray icon part of this discussion or a separate topic?
<rgreening> well, its hard ot agree to something which doesn't work for me, is my point :)
<JontheEchidna> ^same here
<ScottK> rgreening: OK, well assuming it gets fixed.
<Riddell> ScottK: I can't see a point in a systray for an app if the message indicator is on
<ScottK> Riddell: I don't think it should be on by default and it's easy enough for people to hide it if they don't want it in 4.3.
<ScottK> Riddell: I think what we are ~agreeing to do his is ship MI by default, but not enable it by default in Kubuntu apps.
<Nightrose> Riddell: can i open and hide kopete to send a message and not have it in the taskbar all the time?
<rgreening> +1 ScottK
<Riddell> Nightrose: with the MI yes
<seele> Nightrose: you can minimize to systray so it doesnt take up an entry in the task bar
<Nightrose> ok
<neversfelde> MI is very confusing when using it with multiple IMAP accounts with lots of folders and I heard many kopete users complain about not having a tray icon. I think bringing in MI by default would confuse a lot of users.
<Nightrose> seele: yea that's what i was wondering
<Nightrose> is that still possible
<seele> yes
<seele> the mi proposal is to remove the systray icon and only access it from the MI
 * apachelogger notes that latest default settings have tray icons again
<ScottK> \o/
<seele> which is inappropriate imo because the MI is an indicator not a message center
<Nightrose> *nod*
<seele> you shouldnt go to a new message indicator to create a new message or find a buddy or manage kopete
<Nightrose> right
<rgreening> seele: however, in doing that, do we lose the icon functionality - i.e. the right click options? agateau
<rgreening> I use the right-click menu al the time
<agateau> rgreening: yes, there aren't any right click option on the indicator entries
<agateau> it's probably not for you then
<rgreening> -1 from me for that
<rgreening> which is why "default" on would be bad.
<Nightrose> dito
<ScottK> rgreening: Having it there by default doesn't mean it has to be enabled for Kubuntu apps by default.
<ScottK> Those issues are severable.
<rgreening> ScottK: that's not what I sadi
<rgreening> :)
<ScottK> OK.  Wasn't sure.
<rgreening> ScottK: we were referencing the default on in KDE apps
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> I think that shold definitely be off.
<rgreening> So, I'm ok with adding the MI, but not with enabling by default in KDE apps
<JontheEchidna> ^me too
<rgreening> Riddell: will we vote on the amended proposal then?
<Riddell> I'm not sure I understand the point, you want an extra icon on the panel which is only useful if people turn on options or run gnome apps?
<rgreening> Riddell: not want, but as ScottK indicates, there are Gnome apps which require this... and in order to work under KDE
<ScottK> Riddell:  I think people should opt in to using it.
<ScottK> It's one right-click and a left click to remove it if they don't want it.
<rgreening> turning on the integration, and losing functionality is worse IMO. We need to let this mature more. At UDS we all agreed upon an opt-in
<agateau> it's probably quite late, but maybe we can make clicking on the icon display an explanation of what it is and how to enable it's use in applications
<ScottK> That's not a bad idea.
<rgreening> agateau: +++++1000000000
 * agateau hits a high score :)
<rgreening> :)
 * apachelogger notes that by having it there, people who opt in can provide feedback on the general concept and the implementation
<apachelogger> so we are not jumping the gun but allow users do it
<rgreening> +1 apachelogger
 * JontheEchidna likes that
<apachelogger> gotta go ... +1 on having it there by default ... -1 on having it turned on in KDE apps
<apachelogger> cyas
<ScottK> Riddell: Does this sound like a reasonable plan?
<Riddell> I maintain my previous comment
<Riddell> but that seems to be the will of the council and community, seele, Nightrose?
<rgreening> so, do we need a vote call or are we ok?
<seele> Riddell: there seem to be some unresolved issues with it
<Nightrose> i'm with apachelogger
<seele> making it available but not enabled is the best i could hope for, i dont know if enabling it by default is a good idea
<seele> it's ubuntu's fault for making gnome apps not work in KDE without the MI running
<rgreening> lol
<Riddell> I guess that's settled
<Riddell> next item I put down is IRC client, are we any closer to deciding on Quassel vs konvi?
<ScottK> For IRC client, I'd propose that be deferred.
<Riddell> yeah you said there's something new coming?
<ScottK> Post 0.5 rc 1, the quassel devs have been working on fixing usability bugs.
<rgreening> I am actually rather enjoying Quassel (not that Ive gotten used to it)
<ScottK> I've filed for a U/I freeze exception
<Riddell> ok so we'll keep that as "decide before beta"
<ScottK> Assuming it gets approved, I expect to have this uploaded by Sunday
<Riddell> JontheEchidna had "KDE3 universe artifacts of an ancient past"
<JontheEchidna> yus
<JontheEchidna> Debian's begun to remove some of the older, unmaintained/orphaned kde3 apps
<JontheEchidna> I've been following this using those lovely multidistro tools at qa.ubuntuwire.com
<ScottK> We should follow, not lead on this.
<JontheEchidna> yeah, but we also have quite a few apps not in debian ourselves
<ScottK> OK.
<JontheEchidna> when/how do we want to deal with these?
<ScottK> Unless someone has been caring for them, just kill them, IMO.
<JontheEchidna> upstream dead 2 years, not really popular = baleet?
<ScottK> It'll be interesting to see what happens when the current archive rebuild test gets to K.
<JontheEchidna> if old kde3 stuff fails we should just remove 'em, imo
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: As a MOTU you are fully empowered to ask for cruft to be removed from the archive.  I'd say just do it unless you are uncertain and ask then.
<Riddell> I already had to fix a compile issue in koffice 1, not fun
<JontheEchidna> okie-doke
<ScottK> Any objections to my suggestion?
<Riddell> don't be afraid to cull where it seems sensible
<JontheEchidna> any cruft-minded MOTUs are welcome to help me, of course :)
<Riddell> JontheEchidna had an item "Userconfig vs KUser"
<JontheEchidna> Yeah, userconfig is on the verge of being accepted into  Main
<ScottK> I vote for userconfig on the basis of being integrated into systemsettings.
<Riddell> it's not well integrated, it's still a separate dialogue
<JontheEchidna> bug 423741, is the MIR, for the interested
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 423741 in userconfig "[MIR] userconfig" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/423741
<JontheEchidna> unfortunately that's a limitation for any root-wanting systemsettings module :(
<ScottK> Kuser sitting there by itself is just odd.
<JontheEchidna> should be fixable in 10.04
<JontheEchidna> assuming KAuth gets python bindings
<JontheEchidna> KUser is also not that well maintained
<Riddell> do we know or care about the LDAP question?
<Riddell> yuriy: ^^
<Riddell> yuriy: also any plans to include it upstream?
<ScottK> Riddell: I don't think we are particularly enterprise ready at the moment, so if we move Kuser to the dvd for people that need LDAP, I think it's fine.
<rgreening> +1 from me
<rgreening> userconfig looks better and less cryptic
<Riddell> +1 too
<allee-k> ScottK: enterprise is IMHO not our target.  IMHO something even simpler than userconfig is the way to go
<JontheEchidna> for really simple, users can already change their own passwords in the About Me module.
<ScottK> Any objections to userconfig on the CD and kuser on the DVD?
 * rgreening agrees with JontheEchidna
<rgreening> nope
<Riddell> any other business?
<rgreening> not here
<allee-k> JontheEchidna: I imagine a combination between about me and userconfig
<Riddell> thanks for coming all
<ScottK> Riddell: We can't move kuser until userconfig is promoted.
<allee-k> independently userconfig way better than kuser for our desktop target group
<Riddell> ScottK: I think I can do that immediately
<ScottK> Excellent.
<agateau> Is it the right time to discuss Ayatana notifications?
<rgreening> JontheEchidna: someone shuld write a add new user wizard (which I though would satisfy allee-k) :)
<rgreening> ehhe
<ScottK> agateau: Is there some decision you want the community to take?
<agateau> I would like to know whether my current patchset can go in
<ScottK> What does it do?
 * ScottK lost track
 * agateau grabs an url
<agateau> http://people.canonical.com/~agateau/plasma-ayatana-notifications/index.html
 * rgreening keeps getting notifications and MI garbled :)
<ScottK> agateau: Did you see my powerdevil question on the ml?
<agateau> yes,
<agateau> it would suck if the dialog would still be there after resume
 * ScottK is behind on mail.  If you answered it, what did you say?
<ScottK> It would.
<agateau> haven't answered yet
<ScottK> OK.  Would it still be there?
<rgreening> someone suggested making the popup nitification last longer
<agateau> I don't think so
<agateau> rgreening: this is a good idea, but it won't work with ayatana notifications anyway
<rgreening> ah
<agateau> here is a link to the upstream discussion
<agateau> http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=125179433603214&w=2
<agateau> not really easy to follow in the archives though
<rgreening> agateau: what is the liklihood of these patches getting into upstream
<agateau> but if you click "next in thread" a few times, you will find some people who agree on dialog-ifying this
<ScottK> agateau: No one asked the will it be there after resume quesiton IIRC.
<agateau> ScottK: I guess they do not expect it still be there
<rgreening> agateau: Im ok with dialog. assuming it can be made to go away or not appear on resume (maybe it already does - can you test)
<ScottK> If the dialogue remains after resume, then I think it clearly can't be used.
<agateau> ScottK: rgreening: there is no code behind this for now
<agateau> that'll teach me to ask before coding :)
<rgreening> ah
<ScottK> agateau: I think this is a case where if you can get it accepted upstream for KDE 4.4, then we (modulo the resume question) do it.
<rgreening> lol
<agateau> seele: what do you think of this, from a ui point of view?
<ScottK> agateau: I wouldn't want to have to keep this a Kubuntu patch in the long run.
<agateau> ScottK: ok
<ScottK> agateau: I'd like to understand why it's better than a slightly extended notification when using normal KDE notifications?
<ScottK> If upstream takes it, I don't worry too much, but I am curious.
<agateau> I think it's better because the system is about to perform a very drastic operation, so it should be allowed to warn you in a bit more disruptive way
 * seele reads up
<seele> sorry got a work phone call
<agateau> It would also be nicer because of the countdown
<agateau> (see my mockup on kubuntu-devel@ list)
<seele> i dont see the question
<ScottK> Countdown is a good point.
<agateau> or here:
<rgreening> seele: re powerdevil dialog
<agateau> ttp://people.canonical.com/~agateau/tmp/powerdevil-suspend-dialog.png
<agateau> arf
<agateau> http://people.canonical.com/~agateau/tmp/powerdevil-suspend-dialog.png
<agateau> seele: I would like to replace one of the  Powerdevil notifications with a dialog
<agateau> the one which says that the system is about to suspend
<rgreening> agateau: and if count == 0 or button pressed, doalog happliy goes away and power devil continues. excellent.
<agateau> because with ayatana notifications, you don't get actions and can't prevent suspend
<agateau> rgreening: that's it
<seele> the text is fine although that looks like it should be integrated into the logout thing, not a new dialog
<rgreening> +1 from me on this change. I think upstream would like that assuming it would work with or without ayatana notifications
<ScottK> agateau: It'd also be nice to have a little bigger target to hit for don't suspend.  My Dell Mini 10v has a crap touchpad and so precision clicking in a short time is hard.
<agateau> seele: you mean the fullscreen modal thingy?
<seele> yeah
<agateau> ScottK: dialog buttons tend to be bigger than notification buttons
<seele> but it's better than nothing
<seele> but it should be 30 seconds not 10
<seele> 10 is too short
<agateau> seele: agreed
<rgreening> +1 on 30s
<ScottK> seele: 10 is from KDE
<agateau> this can probably be fixed in the default-settings package
<seele> ScottK: i dont care, it's still too short :)
<agateau> seele: I can investigate using the logout screen, but I am afraid it's going to be more involved than a dialog
<ScottK> seele: I agree, I just think it'd be good to push there with your usability hat on.
<yuriy> left at a bad time. Riddell: yes, in theory
<seele> ok guys i've got to go
<seele> i'll check the log and pm for anything you need me to respond to later
<Riddell> so the whole ayatana notification patch is blocked on this one issue?
<ScottK> Riddell: I don't think so.
<Riddell> so what's the issue for us including it?  why can't we have it as long as agateau maintains it?
<ScottK> It didn't seem terribly controversial upstream.  It'd be better if we didn't have to.
<rgreening> +1 for less patches moving forward. Integrating upstream is a definate plus if we can do it.
<Riddell> well it's UI freeze today as I understand it so I think we should include it in Kubuntu if we're going to
<ScottK> We're already past UI freeze
<Riddell> best get it in fast then :)
<agateau> I would need a UI freeze exception for Powerdevil,
<agateau> and for the explanation text in MI
<agateau> and Ayatana notifications if it does not go in in a very short time :)
<ScottK> Riddell: You could just committ it to kdesvn and we'd be done.
<Riddell> I could if there's really no objections upstream
<ScottK> I'd review the ML thread, but I don't recall any serious objections.
<Riddell> it's a plan
<agateau> I am not sure I understand what you want to commit to kdesvn?
<ScottK> The powerdevil dialogue
<agateau> oh ok
<agateau> I wouldn't dare commiting it without proposing it on plasma@ before
<agateau> or kde-core-devel@
<agateau> (because it's not part of Plasma in fact)
<ScottK> Right, so let Riddell do it.
<agateau> Please also remember there is nothing to commit yet
<ScottK> Certainly
<agateau> so the plan would be 1. writing it 2. getting it upstream 3. backporting it?
<ScottK> Yes.  With probably a VERY short interval between 2 and 3.
<agateau> ok
<agateau> can Ayatana notifications go in before this?
<ScottK> I think so.
 * ScottK isn't the final decider on anything, but I don't see why not.
<agateau> sounds good to me
<rgreening> agateau: btw, great work so far on all of this. We do appreciate your time and effort and in listening to our thoughts, discussions, etc.
<agateau> rgreening: thanks
<rgreening> np
<Riddell> any other any other business?
<ScottK> Not from me
<rgreening> nope
 * rgreening needs to write a FFe for arora 0.9.0
<Riddell> yay, Arora
 * rgreening think 'or get someone to do this' haha
<rgreening> :)
 * JontheEchidna has already written 2 FFe's for various things this cycle :P
<rgreening> JontheEchidna: then you are old hat at this. Want to copy/paste one for Arora?
<JontheEchidna> it's really unique to each upgarde
<rgreening> JontheEchidna: http://arorabrowser.blogspot.com/2009/08/arora-090.html - bug fixes we require are listed on the blog :)
<JontheEchidna> "I would like to request a feature freeze exception for" <- There you go :P
<rgreening> haha
<rgreening> JontheEchidna: ok. I'll do it. got a bug example I can work from...
<JontheEchidna> basically you gotta state the reasons
<JontheEchidna> attach a pbuilder log
<JontheEchidna> and an install log
<JontheEchidna> then subscribe motu release
<JontheEchidna> oh, attach the updated package too of coursd
<JontheEchidna> *course
<ScottK> JontheEchidna: arora is in Main
<JontheEchidna> hmm, who to subscribe then?
<ScottK> ubuntu-release
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-09-11
<DKcross> !log
<ubottu> Official channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - For LoCo channels, http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
<Megiddo> Hello all
<Megiddo> I am looking to see if I can possibly re-register on UbuntuForums...
<Megiddo> I haven't been on it in a long time
<Megiddo> and was banned about year or so ago
<Megiddo> is anyone here?
<DKcross> yes i'm here
<DKcross> :D
<Megiddo1> ...
<Megiddo2> Hello?
<Megiddo2> is anyone here?
<nizarus> hi Megiddo2
<Megiddo2> um....
<Megiddo2> I know I have to wait till the counsil meeting for this
<nizarus> this channel is for meetings, for support see #ubuntu or #ubuntu-locoteams
<Megiddo2> but I probably wont be able to make it due to work...
<Megiddo2> is there any way I can get my account unbanned or get granted access to make a new one?
<Megiddo2> or is there any way to contact Ubuntu-geek or any of the other forum counsil members to discuss this?
<Megiddo2> anyone?
<dholbach> pgquiles: you around?
<soren> o/
<DKcross> :o
<dholbach> soren: afaics pgquiles didn't send an email to the MC list, or did you see one?
<pgquiles> dholbach: I'm here
<dholbach> pgquiles: ah great... I thought you weren't around because you didn't reply to my PM :)
<dholbach> pgquiles: how are you doing?
<pgquiles> dholbach: I didn't notice :-)
<pgquiles> pgquiles: I'm just waking up, it's 9 AM here :-)
<dholbach> same here :)
<dholbach> so... I had a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/pgquiles/MOTUApplication and you're applying for MOTU
<dholbach> which packages would you like to be able to upload to the archive?
<pgquiles> well, yes, technically I am
<pgquiles> packages? actually, none
<pgquiles> let me explain
<pgquiles> I'm a debian maintainer (libmsn, witty) and I have a large PPA where I backport/package lots of stuff for hardy and jaunty
<dholbach> did you get in touch with the backports team already?
<dholbach> MOTU status involves upload rights
<pgquiles> I'm not really interested in getting packages only in ubuntu (i. e. MOTU) because I get them in ubuntu through debian
<pgquiles> I only wanted to be able to post to planet ubuntu
<pgquiles> plain and simple
<dholbach> ah ok
<soren> Oh.
<dholbach> so that'd be "contributing developer" instead of "motu" :)
<pgquiles> I tried to apply for ubuntu membership and was told I'm too technical, so I should apply for motu
<pgquiles> so here I am
<dholbach> pgquiles: you seem to have an interest in backporting
<pgquiles> there are some packages I've not got yet in Debian I could upload to ubuntu as MOTU, but I'd prefer them go to through debian
<dholbach> pgquiles: are you aware of the ubuntu backports process?
<pgquiles> dholbach: my interest is purely selfish: I've got a few servers and notebooks with hardy and sometimes I need more recent versions :-)
<pgquiles> dholbach: ubuntu backport process? mmm no
<dholbach> sure, you're not the only one
<dholbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuBackports
<dholbach> and they are constantly looking for help in the team :)
<pgquiles> oh, nice :-)
<pgquiles> (I'm reading that page)
<dholbach> pgquiles: the MOTU Council doesn't have quorum at the moment, so unfortunately we can't approve or reject your request right now anyway, but may I suggest that you get in touch with the team and help out there? I'd be happy to help you get in touch with them to see what you can do there
<dholbach> pgquiles: I read your application with great interest, but was a bit surprised to not see any endorsements of other members on there
<pgquiles> dholbach: ok, thanks
<pgquiles> dholbach: I've never worked with any other MOTU or ubuntu member
<dholbach> to us it's important that ubuntu members collaborate with each other and the backports team might be the perfect spot for you
<dholbach> pgquiles: I'd be very happy to help you get in touch with people and see what you can do there
<pgquiles> dholbach: perfect
<dholbach> pgquiles: so shall we try that and you come back to another meeting in a couple of weeks? is that alright with you?
<dholbach> pgquiles: I appreciate your contributions very much and am sure there's a lot of users who see that similarly :)
<pgquiles> it's ok.
<pgquiles> funny, my PPA would fix some of the backport requests (clamav, git, etc) :-)
<dholbach> and I wouldn't like to see you disheartened or discouraged
<dholbach> pgquiles: thanks a lot for your understanding
<pgquiles> np
<dholbach> I'll start off an email in a bit to introduce you to the rest of the team!
<dholbach> rock and roll! more backports! :-)
<pgquiles> thank you
<dholbach> no worries :-)
<dholbach> alright... moving on
<dholbach> soren: do you have anything else to discuss?
<soren> Not for this meeting, no.
<dholbach> ok perfect
<dholbach> meeting adjourned.
<mvo> slangasek: if the question about base-installer integration comes up during the release-meeting (for upddate-manager). I commited a fix to bzr and will to upload today, i just want to test it some more
<slangasek> mvo: ack, thanks
<lool> slangasek: ogra will present the mobile report this week; I'll watch and mock him
<slangasek> heh
<lool> Well no I wont cause I prepared the report
<lool> I'll just poke him!
 * ogra feels poked
<pitti> hello
<marjo> hello
 * apw fades in ...
 * ogra strands
<apw> slangasek, covering pgraner who is out today i believe
 * slangasek waves
<njpatel> hey
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:00. The chair is slangasek.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * ScottK waves
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-09-11
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2009-09-11
<slangasek> [TOPIC] previous actions
<MootBot> New Topic:  previous actions
<slangasek> #
<slangasek> mvo to include base-installer as update-manager submodule for CPU->kernel mapping
<slangasek> #
<slangasek> fader to filter http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html to avoid showing Xubuntu-specific failures
<slangasek> # marjo to prepare off-line report of Alpha 5 ISO test results
<slangasek> # robbiew to follow up with mpt regarding software-store by default in karmic
<slangasek> mvo commented just before the meeting that this is fix-committed and will be uploaded today
<fader_> slangasek: it is filtered now so that is done
<slangasek> fader_: great, thanks!
<robbiew> right now, I don't expect the software-store package to be installed by default
<slangasek> marjo: how's the ISO report going?  Managing to scrape anything from the web interface?
<robbiew> I have a meeting with ivanka and mvo next week to see what we can do for karmic
<robbiew> i.e. maybe change "Add/Remove" to the new name
<slangasek> robbiew: hmm, so the decision isn't final until next week?
<marjo> slangasek: yes, i have but it's a lot of data
<marjo> should we give it a try?
<slangasek> marjo: can you email it to us?
<robbiew> which will hopefully *NOT* be Software Store...yes
<robbiew> final next week
<slangasek> ok
<marjo> slangasek: sure, that would be better
<slangasek> [ACTION] robbiew meeting with ivanka and mvo next week to settle software store plans for karmic
<MootBot> ACTION received:  robbiew meeting with ivanka and mvo next week to settle software store plans for karmic
<slangasek> [TOPIC] QA Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Team
<slangasek> getting right to it, then
<marjo> * Hardware testing status
<marjo> Nautilus crashes and restarts at startup (LP #403549) is no longer showing up in the results.
<marjo> Acer Aspire One is having booting issues; cr3 is investigating.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 403549 in nautilus "nautilus crashed with SIGSEGV immediately after start up" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/403549
<marjo> any questions?
<slangasek> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> * specs status
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-increase-apport-adoption
<marjo> +filebug redirect: Working with Launchpad team on testing new behavior on staging area.
<slangasek> that report looks like all-pass now except for a few untested, is that accurate?
<marjo> yes
<slangasek> (there was a lot of red in previous passes)
<slangasek> great!
<marjo> it's looking good
<mdz> indeed
<fader_> slangasek: It is accurate, as the failures we were seeing were not hardware related (e.g. the xubuntu bugs) and have been filtered out
<slangasek> excellent
<marjo> also nautilus seems fixed
<fader_> \o/
<marjo> crash, i mean
<mdz> of the untested units, the Dell ones are most significant
<fader_> mdz: Understood.  I will focus on those first then
<mdz> and the acer aspire one
<mdz> dell PE 2970 and acer aspire one (the other dell is a duplicate I noticed, should probably be marked as such)
<mdz> (2950)
<cr3> mdz: I'll be reporting a bug about the aspire one today while I'm testing the other laptops
<marjo> next spec
<slangasek> marjo: how are the other specs?
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-extended-audio-testing
<marjo> Implemented
<marjo> * UbuntuSpec:karmic-qa-metrics-based-testing-phase-2
<marjo> Marc has the output of metrics from Phoronix in order to define the schema for supporting quantitative test results in addition to qualitative test
<marjo> results. For now, the existing schema will have to be augmented with the following fields:
<marjo>   value (float): the result from running metrics based tests
<marjo>   scale (string): the unit or scale for the values, eg. kbps
<marjo>   proportion (string): whether higher or lower values are better
<marjo> Marc = cr3
<marjo> any questions? if not, that's it from QA team
<mdz> marjo, you're emailing the milestone test report?
<marjo> mdz: yes
<slangasek> no other questions here
<marjo> thx
<slangasek> thank you
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Desktop Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Team
<pitti> hi
<pitti> as usual, current status is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> this week the langpack uninstallability was fixed, and some other RC bugs, but bugs keep piling up
<pitti> new langpacks were uploaded and work with ffox 3.5 now
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<pitti> we discussed the emphathy/pidgin by default question, and we decided to keep the current status quo by and large, so no major changes here
<pitti> DX integration rush settled down a bit feature-wise now, but they are still working full steam on fixing some functionality regressions from jaunty
<slangasek> overall, I've seen there's been very good turnover on desktop team bugs this week
<pitti> we had deep conversations about the latter, and brushing up the release management on those, so I think Ken has a good overview now
<pitti> they are all milestoned properly etc. now
<pitti> most bugs are well underway; I wish people would upload a bit more often, but none of them are on the "OMGkittensdie" level, so getting them fixed for the beta should mostly suffice
<pitti> the only thing that concerns me a little is bug 256245
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 256245 in kpackagekit "Kubuntu GUI package manager does not warn if packages are unsigned" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/256245
<pitti> since it will involve getting a new PackageKit major version
<slangasek> milestoned> also targeted, so /I/ get an overview? :)
<pitti> alternatively we could just declare it "as good as it gets for karmic", but it's certainly not optimal
<pitti> slangasek: until Wednesday, only on their projects; I asked ken to add Ubuntu tasks to them and add our own milestones
<slangasek> ok
<rickspencer3> davidbarth, has a good summary of #dx status
<pitti> I have a TODO item for that to talk to Brian to get the necessary privs to Ken
<pitti> (milestoning and setting priority)
<davidbarth> slangasek: yes, for DX the status is up at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/KarmicReleaseStatus
<james_w> (packagekit new version is problematic without a policykit-1-kde package)
<pitti> davidbarth: FYI, guest session works now
<Riddell> james_w: yes that's the blocker, it's being worked on but not sure of an ETA
<pitti> james_w: eww
<davidbarth> pitti: oh cool, this unblocks #404870
<pitti> james_w: that pretty much sounds like "as good as it gets" case then
<pitti> Riddell: oh, it's still feasible? pk-1-kde would be great to get, to settle to a common API, but it's getting a bit late
<Riddell> pitti: hope so but I agree it's getting close
<slangasek> how soon is that going to be here if we're going to have it?
<slangasek> can we have that by next week, or are we talking about something that's going to be pushing beta?
<Riddell> slangasek: pushing beta I suspect
<Riddell> in better news kdebluetooth found a new maintainer so there may be fixes comeing there
<slangasek> Riddell: you'll send that through FFe, then?  Bug #256245 is unpleasant, but as it's not a regression I don't think we should be too fast and loose with changes to fix it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 256245 in kpackagekit "Kubuntu GUI package manager does not warn if packages are unsigned" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/256245
<Riddell> yep
 * slangasek nods
<davidbarth> slangasek: of note for DX, #425552 - "[Karmic Alpha 5] no preferences settings in indicator-applet-session logging out menu (top right menu)" - possible regression
<davidbarth> slangasek: we don't have preferences for that by design
<davidbarth> slangasek: and xsplash artwork upload postponed to the artwork freeze
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> davidbarth: FYI, I asked slangasek to look at the FFE for bug 423450 (I think that's also blocking you)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 423450 in gdm "FFE: Add user manager dbus interface to gdmserver" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/423450
<slangasek> yes, I'll have a look at that later this morning
<pitti> davidbarth: is i-s depending on that, or are you going to use the existing APIs for now?
<pitti> I wasn't sure whether it's a blocker
<lool> davidbarth: Anything else remaining in terms of xsplash work?
<davidbarth> pitti: yes, we're developing against the dbus api that was defined here
<ScottK> slangasek: 256245 is a regression from Hardy
<pitti> can we please fix the throbber? :-)
<ogra>  ++
<pitti> davidbarth: ok, noted; thanks
<slangasek> ScottK: right... but not from the last two releases :/
<slangasek> ScottK: anyway, I'd like to see it fixed, just making sure we're not taking shortcuts to do it
<ScottK> slangasek: Yes.  The ability to stay on a release that doesn't have the regression is about to expire
<ScottK> Enough for now ...
<slangasek> ok, done digesting, no other questions here
<slangasek> anyone else?
<lool> 17:24 < lool> davidbarth: Anything else remaining in terms of xsplash work?
<lool> davidbarth: ^
<lool> I thought some Xsession integration was pending
<davidbarth> lool: it's in
<lool> Ok cool
<davidbarth> lool: njpatel added that yesterday, and the new release of xsplash 0.7.1 takes that into account
<lool> Ok; I checked the changelog but wasn't sure it was what I thought it was; thanks
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Mobile Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Mobile Team
<davidbarth> lool: it's the new add_signal api; unr now registers an additional signal to get in sync with xsplash
<ogra> oh thats me ... ! :)
<slangasek> ogra, njpatel: heya
<ogra> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<ogra> Important stuff for A6:
<ogra> - UNR needs a langpack upload planned for Sunday for A6
<ogra> - some debian-cd changes might be needed when the new armel kernels land
<ogra> - moblin-remix likely to break often during transitions in Ubuntu and needs to be watched closely
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<ogra> basically not much new, the OO.o bug starts getting very worrying ...
<ogra> the initramfs-tools bug i will take care for to be solved before A6
<ogra> most of the rest is actually kernel team stuff and waits for their sprint
<slangasek> wrt OOo, it's gotten built now on arm, right?  Has it been re-added to the seeds?
<ogra> it builds but doesnt run
<ogra> and i added it to the seeds, yes
<slangasek> ok
<ogra> immediately after it built again
<slangasek> so our images are building true, at least
<ogra> well, apparently pitti just broke glib for us :P
<pitti> ogra: huh?
<slangasek> what debian-cd changes are going to be needed for armel kernels, and why?
<ogra> so they arent buiolding atm :)
<pitti> ogra: the assertion message stuff breaks arm?
<pitti> oh
<slangasek> pitti: arm is slow, any/all version skew, nothing to see here :)
<lool> pitti: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/31650513/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-armel.glib2.0_2.21.6-0ubuntu2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<slangasek> oh, it's a FTBFS
<lool> pitti: Didn't want to ping you just when you were reporting  :-)
<ogra> slangasek, the fixes for the udeb bug will require additional changes to debican-cd
<slangasek> ogra: ah, yes
<lool> slangasek: There's also a worrying bug when debootstraping which breaks our livefs builds; moblin remix and UNR are affected right now
<ogra> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/359049
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 359049 in linux-fsl-imx51 "imx51 udeb hardcodes linux version in vmlinuz binary name" [High,Fix committed]
<cjwatson> ... and d-i. but it's nothing to get too worried about
<ogra> waits for the rebased .31 kernels
<slangasek> lool: what bug is that?
<ogra> yeah, its minor changes
<pitti> lool: meh, this looks like arm doesn't have the new glibc yet?
<lool> slangasek: This morning StevenK told me it was https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sysvinit/+bug/427709
<ogra> slangasek, i think lool refers to sysvinit :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 427709 in sysvinit "sysv-rc depends on insserv but it is not installable" [High,New]
<lool> but Scott rejected it
<pitti> lool: I can disable the patch on arm if necessary, it's just for apport love
<lool> I didnt have time to chase it since
<lool> pitti: Oh indeed; it's trivial to fix the new glibc to build though
<pitti> lool: ok, then we can just give back glib once glibc builds
<pitti> I mean, glibc really ought to build on armel one way or the other, right?
<lool> s/glibc/eglibc sorry
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to follow up on bug #427709
<ogra> yeah unless we find a way to run stuff without it :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 427709 in sysvinit "sysv-rc depends on insserv but it is not installable" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/427709
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to follow up on bug #427709
<lool> pitti: absolutely and it's trivial to fix
<lool> pitti: Will fix it now
<pitti> great
<ogra> any other questions about arms or legs or other mobile parts ?
<slangasek> ogra, lool: anything to note regarding the overall spec status?  should toolchain, freescale desktop be considered "implemented"?
<lool> slangasek: Yeah
<cjwatson> 427709 should be an MIR for insserv I think
<ogra> slangasek, well, freescale desktop has a workitem for every alpha/beta/rc
<cjwatson> if Scott is intentionally pulling it in
<lool> slangasek: FSL is implemented and suffers from kernel bugs and might get optional additional stuff
<slangasek> lool: they're marked as "beta available", please mark the specs accordingly :)
<lool> slangasek: toolchain is implemented abd we need to babysit builds in case sonmething goes wrong
 * ogra cares for fsl desktop
<slangasek> ogra: I don't think "test and install the milestone" is something that makes sense to keep track of as a spec; this is already integrated into our milestone release process
<lool> slangasek: done
<ogra> done for fsl-desktop
<slangasek> cjwatson: agreed; do you want to nudge it in that direction?
<ogra> slangasek, well, it looks good on the burndown chart :) but i can indeed drop these
<cjwatson> done
<cjwatson> well, commented anyway
<lool> cjwatson: Can we prepromote this?
<cjwatson> you're a member of ~ubuntu-mir ;-)
<slangasek> anything else for mobile?
<lool> Naking that a MIR
<lool> cjwatson: I'd say yes then
<cjwatson> I'll promote it for now, but if you could help shepherd it through the MIR process that would help
<davidbarth> slangasek: UNR, all milestoned bugs fixed, including the last crashers
<davidbarth> https://edge.launchpad.net/unr/+milestone/ubuntu-9.10-ui-freeze
<lool> cjwatson: Ok
<slangasek> davidbarth: great :)
<davidbarth> neil and jason did a great job!
 * ogra would love to see https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/423632 fixed but thats just personal preference since it hurts my eyes :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 423632 in xsplash "xsplash wallpaper gradients are massively distorted at 16bpp depth" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ogra> (on armel at least)
<ogra> anyway, if there are no further questions, i'm done
<slangasek> ogra: is that a general problem on armel, should xsplash be disabled there?
<davidbarth> ogra: hmmm, ok; taking a look at his one for next week
<ogra> slangasek, its a gerneral prob with that color depth
<slangasek> ogra: yes, I'm asking whether it affects all the relevant armel systems
<ogra> the framebuffer driver i have for imx51 currently does rgb545 while the pic seems to assume rgb666
<ogra> i havent used a dove image that uses xsplash yet, NCommander ??
<lool> ogra: there's an open bug on usplash being broken on dove
<lool> dont know if it's still current
<NCommander> I have yet to try xsplash on dove, usplash is known not to work at this time
<ogra> i thought you tested live images already ...
<ogra> xsplash is there by default
<ogra> (the thing with the strange throbber)
<NCommander> ogra, I'm not setting splash on the command line, since with usplash, it prevents the image from booting
<NCommander> I need to set it manually if I want to test it
<davidbarth> ogra: well, not a high priority then considering the buggy context, but we can carry an ARM-specific patch if you can guide bratsche to make a fix
<ogra> davidbarth, i see it on 16bpp laptop x86 displays i have too
<ogra> its not armel specific
<ogra> but depends on the rgb value used for the pic
<ogra> but its really minor
<davidbarth> ogra: ok, you've raised the priority then ;)
<slangasek> ogra, davidbarth: further follow-ups to the bug, then?
<ogra> anyway, please move on, we can discuss that off-meeting :)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Kernel Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Team
<apw> Overall kernel team status is summarised at the URL below, including the bugs as called
<apw> out in the agenda.  To highlight the worst of these, the suspend/hibernate not working and the bluetooth suspend hang are both believed fixed and awaiting test results.
<apw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<apw> We have one other bug (bug #427822) impacting A6 specfically, the fallout from the ext3/fsck time checks is early boot, which lead to a full fsck on any crash regardless of the presence of the log.  We have a test patch for that which keybuk is testing.  This looks critical for a good kernel for A6.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 427822 in linux "fsck says last write time in future" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/427822
<apw> All the items which impact the distro release schedule seem to be progressing ok at this time.  ARM enablement is now pretty much up to speed and in sync with the main kernel.  With the release of mainline v2.6.31 the final rebase of the Karmic series has now been done and we are now targetting regression-potential bugs.
<apw> ..
<slangasek> 409233> do we need to escalate that with the people who can test it
<slangasek> ?
<apw> i have reprodded.  we have two people with them in house, so will poke them today
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> no other questions from me
<slangasek> anyone else?
<lool> Enjoy plumbers!
<slangasek> apw: actually, just looking quickly at the packages in the archive for 423426, I still don't see any virtio modules in the -virtual flavor
<slangasek> in -10.32
<apw> slangasek, ok will go confirm that and reopen the bug if so
<apw> damned thing
<rtg> damned bashisms
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team
<slangasek> apw: thanks
<slangasek> hrm, do we have someone here from server team?
<slangasek> soren, smoser, mdz:  is someone covering server team here?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
<soren> Well... I didn't know that I was going to, but I've been trying to connect the dots.
<slangasek> we'll come back if someone turns up
<kirkland> slangasek: howdy
<kirkland> slangasek: I'm around
<soren> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Server Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Server Team
<slangasek> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ReleaseStatus
<slangasek> ok then :)
<soren> :)
 * soren is itching to get to dinner, so would like to go on :)
<soren> That page is up-to-date as of 15 minutes ago.
<soren> Since then, the status on..
<soren> #
<soren> 423856: ec2-init should check for image upgrades, needed to complete server-karmic-ec2-upgrades
<soren> has changed.
<slangasek> fwiw, you list bug #424459 as targeted, but it wasn't - targeted to karmic now
<soren> It's been demilestoned, and set back to triaged. We've deferred this feature.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 424459 in eucalyptus "Temporary file vulnerability in euca_conf" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/424459
<soren> I've not yet updated the page.
<slangasek> ok
<soren> Whoops
<soren> Not that one :)
<soren> Oh, sorry, I got confused.
<soren> I thought ubottu was telling me about the bug I mentioned.
<soren> So yes, we have demilestoned and deferred bug 423856
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 423856 in ec2-init "[FFE] ec2-init should check for image upgrades" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/423856
<slangasek> directory-enabled-user-login still says "pending on OpenLDAP 2.4.18 release" - we've had the FFe, is that still pending?
<slangasek> actually, I know it's not, I saw the upload :)
<soren> No, it's not.
<soren> Did I not remove that one from the list?
<slangasek> seems not
<soren> Oh, I removed it from the FFe list, but not the other one.
<soren> Sorry. This is new to me :)
<slangasek> looks good to me, then
<soren> Erm.. Not sure what else to say.
<slangasek> any questions for server?
<mdz> slangasek, sorry
<mdz> I dropped the ball on this; I believe thierry usually covers it but is on holiday this week
<soren> Yes, ttx is our resident release team hero :)
<slangasek> mdz: sorted now, it seems :)
<soren> release team *meeting* hero, at least.
<mdz> there is a lot more going on than that page reflects, but the information on it is accurate
<slangasek> soren: ec2 is in good shape overall?  I still have some email threads to follow up on; am I blocking anything critical path?
<mdz> we have substantial work to do on eucalyptus in order to get it into a releasable state
<soren> slangasek: I don't think it's blocked on you at the moment.
<mdz> niemeyer is still planning to land a new feature for the "appliance store"
<mdz> there are several important tasks which need to be completed for alpha 6 with regard to release engineering
 * slangasek nods
<mdz> slangasek, the major issue with regard to EC2 is the kernel
<mdz> we've only just got a functional kernel, which rtg is working to merge into karmic
<mdz> he has filed an MIR as it is a separate source package
<rtg> mdz, uploaded for MIR review this AM
<slangasek> yes; rtg asked about that, I requested that he send it through MIR because I'm not really comfortable adding yet another source package to main and wanted MIR's sign-off
<mdz> understood
<mdz> smoser, any significant concerns with the EC2 images apart from the kernel?
<smoser> bug 427288
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 427288 in linux "Karmic i386 EC2 kernel emulating unsupported memory accesses" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/427288
<smoser> thats the biggest issue at the moment.
<soren> "apart from the kernel" :)
<slangasek> is that fixed by the linux-ec2 package?
<rtg> slangasek, no, its still in progress
<Daviey> Are all the release critical issues for eucalyptus represented as LP bugs?
<slangasek> or more work is needed (--> should be milestoned/targeted)?
<mdz> smoser, I assume that warrants better than New/Undecided?
<smoser> oh. sorry. missed that. apart from kernel, no.  the nighyly image failed, but thats due to upstart depencdency on universe.
<mdz> Daviey, yes, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=eucalyptus
<apw> thats not obviously a kernel issue.  normally one changes a userspace libarary to fix that
<Daviey> (thanks mdz)
<erichammond> I ended up with the following code when I build images for EC2; not sure if it fixes the bug just mentioned: http://paste.ubuntu.com/268982/
<mdz> smoser, so userland is happy?
<mdz> erichammond, thanks for that
<smoser> i think so.
<mdz> erichammond, do you have any outstanding concerns with regard to the current Karmic EC2 images, apart from the kernel concerns mentioned above?
<slangasek> smoser, apw: right, is that fixed just by installing libc6-xen?
<mdz> I guess not
<robbiew> heh
<smoser> slangasek, i think so , as per jjohansen
<slangasek> ok
<apw> slangasek, it may well be, it looks like jjohansen1 is already looking at it and is the right person to answer
<mdz> the bug list for the UEC images (which also affect EC2) is at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=uec-images
<smoser> slangasek, for some reason i thought that package was not present in karmic
<slangasek> smoser: it's in universe, but it would be a binary-only promotion (trivial)
<mdz> and the bugs affecting EC2 specifically are at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ec2-images
<smoser> but it is.
<slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=uec-images
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=uec-images
<slangasek> [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ec2-images
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ec2-images
<jjohansen1> apw: I don't have an answer on that yet, I need to do some testing
<mdz> action for smoser to try libc6-xen, and if successful, migrate the karmic images to that?
<smoser> yes.
<slangasek> [ACTION] smoser to try libc6-xen in UEC, and if successful, migrate karmic images to it
<MootBot> ACTION received:  smoser to try libc6-xen in UEC, and if successful, migrate karmic images to it
<smoser> and then, whatever else (promotion) would be needed
<mdz> smoser, please update the bug to reflect what we just learned/decided
<mdz> smoser, right, promoting it would be a prerequisite for migrating the karmic images
<slangasek> anything else to be covered for server?
<soren> smoser: Don't we already but that there? I thought we did?
<mdz> nothing more from me
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Foundations Team
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations Team
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<cjwatson> Bug:353534: update-manager fix committed, pending testing
<cjwatson> Bug:386789: grub2 fix just uploaded
<cjwatson> Bug:415888: no progress, likely to be tricky, but not the end of the world
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Karmic
<slangasek> mdz, soren, smoser: thanks
<cjwatson> Bug:407428: fixed upstream, will land with next upload
<cjwatson> UbuntuSpec:foundations-karmic-cloud-setup-in-server-installer: euca_conf --discover-nodes landed, automatic component registration and some more debconf questions in progress (FFE already filed and approved, waiting for some feedback from eucalyptus experts); after that the specced work will be done but it would not at all surprise me if further work on quality is needed
<cjwatson> UbuntuSpec:software-library: decision appears to be to ship this as a technology preview for 9.10
<cjwatson> UbuntuSpec:foundations-karmic-power-management: slangasek, is there any more you have planned here? (I should probably ask questions like this before the release meeting ...)
<cjwatson> UbuntuSpec:foundations-karmic-bootspeed-targets: being staged in ubuntu-boot PPAs, bulk of this due to land for Alpha 6
<cjwatson> also dpkg 1.15.4? (FFE filed, pending); broken manual partitioning in ubiquity, fix committed; and expecting some wubi work to take better advantage of grub2 and get rid of the nasty /boot-on-NTFS bind-mount
<slangasek> cjwatson: there's one more fix for the power management spec I hope to get in, tearing out some boot-time redundancy
<cjwatson> software-library is disappointing, but that was robbiew's decision after discussion with mvo and mpt
<slangasek> working on that this afternoon
<mdz> cjwatson, (just noting there should be a grub-related bug report inbound from cr3 for the acer aspire one boot failure)
<cjwatson> cloud-setup is the bit that worries me the most simply because it's so late, but by the looks of things this is not unusual among cloud work ...
<cjwatson> mdz: ati chipset?
<mdz> cjwatson, I have no idea
<robbiew> we may be able to come to a compromise on software-store..but won't know until I talk to ivanka and mvo
<mdz> clicking on the link in the report spews a django error
<robbiew> i.e. rename "Add/Remove"
<robbiew> heh
<mvo> :)
<cjwatson> if it's ati and "unaligned pointer" or "out of range pointer", then it's a known issue that upstream are working on; there's believed to be a fix as of today
<ogra> Compromise: Add/Remove Software Store ?
<mdz> cjwatson, I have no details; cr3?
<cjwatson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_Aspire_One says i945GSE so it may or may not be the same thing
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acer_Aspire_One says i945GSE so it may or may not be the same thing
<cjwatson> MootBot: sod off
<cr3> cjwatson: I can reproduce on a few systems, I'll test today
<marjo> cjwatson: we'll get you that answer asap
<cjwatson> thanks; FWIW http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=544155 is the bug I'm thinking of
<ubottu> Debian bug 544155 in grub-pc "[grub-pc] grub update renders system unbootable (unaligned pointer 0x700ba)" [Grave,Open]
<davmor2> cjwatson: AAO is all intel netbook with atheros wifi
<cjwatson> OK. The limitation of that bug to ATI is purely anecdotal, of course - there's no obvious reason why it should be so limited. So we'll see.
<slangasek> cjwatson: cloud-setup> do things seem to be converging there?
<cjwatson> slangasek: do you plan to mark power-management implemented after that work?
<cjwatson> slangasek: yes, I think so - the pieces that are left are now small, they're just time-consuming to test
<mdz> slangasek, action for cr3 to test whether the problem is that grub bug, and if not, file a new one
<slangasek> cjwatson: implemented> yes
<slangasek> [ACTION] cr3 to check whether Acer Aspire One failure is "unaligned pointer" / "out of range pointer" grub bug (fixed in latest grub2)
<MootBot> ACTION received:  cr3 to check whether Acer Aspire One failure is "unaligned pointer" / "out of range pointer" grub bug (fixed in latest grub2)
<cjwatson> well, not quite fixed yet, but possible fix in hand
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> anything else?
<cjwatson> that's all from me, though I would like to know about the dpkg FFE sooner rather than later (yes, I know I only filed the FFE bug today :-/)
<slangasek> ack; will try to get through all the FFes shortly after the meeting
 * cjwatson nods
<slangasek> [TOPIC] MOTU
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU
<slangasek> ScottK: hi
<ScottK> Hi
<ScottK> cjwatson kicked off a rebuild test for us this week: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archive/test-rebuild-20090909
<ScottK> Bad results can be found here: http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909.html
<ScottK> gcc 4.4 is causing a lot of problems.
<slangasek> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archive/test-rebuild-20090909
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archive/test-rebuild-20090909
<slangasek> [LINK] http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909.html
<ScottK> Most of the failures I've looked at need a C programmer to fix.
<cjwatson> there's a gnat bootstrap in progress with IS, which should clear up the ada stuff, I think?
<ScottK> So it looks to me like we have a not insiginificant number of packages that we will ship in an unbuildable state.
<ScottK> Yes, some of this will clear up naturally.
<cjwatson> but yeah, that's a lot of failures
<ScottK> I've also been filing removal bugs on the libgtk1.2-dev depwait packages.
<pitti> oh, thanks
<ScottK> There are a lot, so anyone who wants to join in, feel free.
<slangasek> I've been doing some rebuilds for NBS and hit a number of those already (thanks, curl-config); had been setting them aside for the moment, but I'll block some time one of these days to go back and hack on the ones that need fixing
<pitti> ScottK: I'll do a process-removals run, that will hopefully kill a few, too
<pitti> ScottK: one meta-bug shuold be enough, it's not that hard to figure out all reverse dependencies for archive admins
<ScottK> OK.
<pitti> we can put in the list and have a quick review there
<slangasek> pitti: wishlist: fix libcups to stop telling all its reverse-depends to link against libkrb5 :P
<pitti> slangasek: oh, sure; noted in my TODO list
<ScottK> So that's my major concern.
<ScottK> Everything else seems to be shaping up reasonably well.
<ScottK> Our FTBFS totals are already lower than Jaunty at release.
<ScottK> FFe processing is going well.
<ScottK> No one I told no has shown up at my house yet.
<slangasek> ScottK: are there any particularly heinous gcc-4.4 build failures that you've found that you want other eyeballs on?
<slangasek> heh
<ScottK> slangasek: It's more the number of failures.
 * slangasek nods
<ScottK> It seems most of the C++ ones are missing headers.
<ScottK> Those aren't two hard.
<ScottK> Most of the C ones seem to be data type issues.
<slangasek> (can we parlay this into some sort of training activity on ubuntu-motu, so more people have the skill to fix these down the line?)
<cjwatson> might be worth correlating with the Debian bug reports that Martin Michlmayr tends to file about these things
<slangasek> <blink> why did cups FTBFS on amd64, that just built a couple days ago in the archive
<ScottK> Yes.  Both good ideas.
<slangasek> cjwatson: not sure how much he's been doing for gcc-4.4, the few I've poked at didn't have corresponding Debian bugs filed yet
<ScottK> It'd take someone who can fix them (i.e. not me) to lead it.
 * sistpoty|work is a little bit low on spare time atm, but I can try to do an instant session once I'm home tonight
<slangasek> [ACTION] slangasek to pursue having a FTBFS training session with #ubuntu-motu
<MootBot> ACTION received:  slangasek to pursue having a FTBFS training session with #ubuntu-motu
<ScottK> Also, http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/bugs/rcbugs/ is updating correctly now also
<slangasek> sistpoty|work: oh, great - perhaps we can coordinate
<pitti> slangasek: httpAddrGetList(dubnium): FAIL
<sistpoty|work> slangasek: that'd be great :)
<pitti> slangasek: I bet it's just something silly like "localhost" not being defined or so
<slangasek> pitti: heh
<pitti> the test suite is pretty brittle
<slangasek> ok, we're at time, so...
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<pitti> (which is usually a good thing, but..)
<slangasek> anything else?
<cjwatson> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?tag=ftbfs-gcc-4.4;users=debian-gcc@lists.debian.org
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?tag=ftbfs-gcc-4.4;users=debian-gcc@lists.debian.org
<cjwatson> sorry, took me a while to find that
<cjwatson> respectable number fixed there
<slangasek> ok, cool
<slangasek> things seem to be stable now as far as langpack size, thanks to pitti (et al)'s awesome work on splitting out help files
<slangasek> we're back up to 6 languages on the liveCD
<slangasek> let's keep it there if we can :)
 * slangasek raises the gavel slowly
<pitti> yesterday's upload will have increased it again, since the new langpacsk have the stripped gnome help files
<pitti> but about half of the savings should stay
<pitti> (or more)
<superm1> slangasek, i wanted to raise something for ~mythbuntu
<slangasek> superm1: go ahead
<superm1> okay so first, good news: We're on track for an new upstream release of 0.22 and doing trunk builds every few days as more bugs are getting caught, forwarded upstream and fixed.
<superm1> Bad news: Unfortunately, we're finding lots of new NVIDIA hardware won't boot karmic live disks.  You need to enable the binary NVIDIA driver on the live disk (which is now actually do-able thanks to jockey-text) or write out an xorg.conf that forces VESA:
<superm1> bug 404577, bug 413439, bug 427700.  The "nv" driver doesn't support this hardware, but X autoconfig is trying to pick it anyway.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 404577 in xserver-xorg-video-nv "Xorg does not load in karmic using Zotac ion board A series" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/404577
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 413439 in xserver-xorg-video-nv "karmic alpha 4's xorg 'nv' driver does not handle Nvidia 8200" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/413439
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 427700 in xserver-xorg-video-nv "nvidia driver does not load on ion platforms" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/427700
<superm1> and since mythtv 0.22 supports lots of hardware acceleration whiz bang things only on this new hardware, i expect that a lot of people will be investing in new hardware for it's exact purpose
<slangasek> these are regressions vs. jaunty?
<superm1> Yes
<slangasek> can you tag them such if they aren't already (regression-potential), and we'll escalate from there?
<superm1> i've got a piece of this new hardware myself that works properly with jaunty (chooses vesa)
<superm1> sure
<slangasek> seems like the -nv driver just needs its PCI matches pruned
<superm1> well the problem is that they're not explicitly in the list of PCI matches, it just goes off vendor
<superm1> which is a bad assumption since -nv doesn't support all nvidia hardware
<slangasek> er, really?
<slangasek> ok, so obviously that needs fixing
<slangasek> I think we can take that out of band from here, then?
<superm1> unfortunately. yeah you'll get stuff like " (WW) NV: Ignoring unsupported device 0x10de0849 (C77 [GeForce 8200]) at 02@00:00:0" in your Xorg log, and then Xorg borks out
<superm1> yeah, i just wanted to make sure it was raised. the details for solving it can be done outside this room
<slangasek> thanks for bringing it to our attention
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:41.
<slangasek> and thanks, all
<pitti> thanks all
<ace_suares1> allright
<ace_suares1> I'm here for the Edubuntu Meetingf
<ace_suares1> hi
<sbalneav> hey ho
<highvoltage> hi!
<sbalneav> Zap!
<sbalneav> It's highvoltage
<highvoltage> :)
<sbalneav> Shocking!
<ace_suares1> w000t!
<sbalneav> I'm sensing some resistance to my jokes.
<sbalneav> Perhaps I lack the capacitance to tell good ones.
<alkisg> the electric shock left us breathless :)
<sbalneav> wire you note laughing?
<ace_suares1> kalimera alkisg!
<highvoltage> sbalneav: lol
<alkisg> And a very good morning to you, ace_suares1 :)
<highvoltage> good morning / afternoon edubuntuers!
 * ace_suares1 doesn't know how to say good afternoon in greek!
 * alkisg neither :D
<highvoltage> anyone speak to LaserJock recently?
<ace_suares1> kalinichta, if you are in GMT i guess...
<highvoltage> he said he might have figured out the seeds but I haven't managed to talk to him since
<sbalneav> I downloaded a DVD image last night, I'm planning on testing the install before I head out for the weekend.
<ace_suares1> LaserJock made a dvd that you can download but it's a straight non-modified DVD. He said he want s to work on specific Edu stuff but I think he hasn't done it yet.
<ace_suares1> I tested the install a week ago it was fine on first looks
<highvoltage> ace_suares1: yes that iso has been around for a few weeks now
<highvoltage> (as daily buidls)
<sbalneav> Looks like the gartoon icon set's been updated.  Will that make it in, or is it too late?
<highvoltage> I'm burning to have an actual edubuntu disc that we can test
<highvoltage> sbalneav: It's not too late for it to go in, but I don't think anyone is actively looking at it
<ace_suares1> i did the test as a virtualbox sesson with the iso.
<sbalneav> Hm, wonder how hard it would be to update the package.  I'd be willing to look at it, but I might need some help
<sbalneav> mdz doesn't love us anymore :(
<highvoltage> sbalneav: you can ping me if you're working on it
<highvoltage> sbalneav: otherwise I might try it myself for my work towards motu
<highvoltage> sbalneav: yeah mdz is just busy :)
<sbalneav> highvoltage: Well, if you want it for motu, go ahead. :)
<sbalneav> I've reached my level of incompetence, and doubt I'll ever be smart enough for motu :(
<highvoltage> sbalneav: I'm just afraid that I might not get to it, if you beat me I won't complain
<highvoltage> sbalneav: bah, don't be so hard on yourself
<sbalneav> Just realistic.
<sbalneav> A man should know his limitations
<ace_suares1> I think the DVD has been around for about a week, i mean the edubuntu specific one, maybe 10 days.
<sbalneav> And brother, do I have limitations :)
<highvoltage> sbalneav: of course you do, but I strongly believe that you have what it takes
<ace_suares1> https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Edubuntu/WikiSite/Meeting/Logs/2009-09-04, need to summarize though
<sbalneav> Making some headway on the handbook.
<ace_suares1> it's nice to be able to refer to the raw logs like this:
<ace_suares1> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2009/09/04/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t18:02
<highvoltage> ace_suares1: edubuntu-specific?
<ace_suares1> it starts at that time in the log. Cool.
<sbalneav> How much time do I have before I have to finalize it?
<ace_suares1> highvoltage: yeah the one LaserJock made is Edubuntu specific, isn't it?
<highvoltage> ace_suares1: that iso is the one that I requested with colin watson, it's currently basically just an ubuntu DVD
<ace_suares1> highvoltage: oh I thought LaserJock made that one
<highvoltage> ace_suares1: it's been generated since about 2009-08-20
<highvoltage> ace_suares1: laserjock must modify the seeds so that it becomes edubuntu-specific
<ace_suares1> highvoltage: or did i speak yo you last week about putting some more edubuntu specifici stuff in the base install, like the meta packages? I must be confused!
<highvoltage> ace_suares1: I did speak to you about it, although not last week iirc
<ace_suares1> I menat this one: http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/current/
<ace_suares1> highvoltage: okay i am confusing you and lj on the issue, sorry
<highvoltage> ace_suares1: yes, unless the seeds have been updated, that will be a standard ubuntu DVD
<ace_suares1> highvoltage: yes, and i spoke to you (probably) about chaging the seeds so that there would be something in the menu about education... didn't I????
<highvoltage> ace_suares1: it's our biggest priority atm, because if the seeds aren't finalised by the next alpha, there won't be an edubuntu 9,10.
<highvoltage> I guess we'll have to check with LasrJock for more info there, earlier this week it did sound like he had it pretty much figured out.
<ace_suares1> yeah that's what I thought, that LaserJock was working on that
<ace_suares1> So if there is no real agenda, can I ask what we think a good meetign schedule would be, as the current one (each Friday 17 UTC) isn't sufficient, according to the mails on the list?
<highvoltage> ace_suares1: what about wednesdays?
<ace_suares1> Another question, is there anyone with thoughts on my 'bold' move to move the old meetinglogs as detailed in the messages on the list?
<youcanlinux> howdy from southern ontario
<highvoltage> ace_suares1: I'm sorry I need to run now, but I'll read up on it a bit later. I trust you with the meetinglogs though, it's been unmaintained for a long time now.
<ace_suares1> howdy youcanlinux
<youcanlinux> Hi Ace... good to see you here. Maybe the next meeting ?
<ace_suares1> highvoltage: thank you for the vote of support - i really needed that (and the more the better).
<youcanlinux> Ace, thanks for trying to do stuff for the community. Take care.
<youcanlinux> hang in there :-)
<ace_suares1> youcanlinux: what do you mean by maybe the next meeting?!
<youcanlinux> maybe we'll meet up then
<ace_suares1> youcanlinux: I will try but it's a lot harder that I'd thought
<ace_suares1> youcanlinux: okay but you are here, now??
<youcanlinux> No worries. You just keep on keepin' on.
<youcanlinux> Yes, I am here now. But I thought you stated that you had to get going.
<ace_suares1> no, that was highvoltage
<ace_suares1> sbalneav: if you are still there...
<youcanlinux> oh! Sorry. Anyway, so sorry I'm late.
<ace_suares1> sbalneav: how's sabayon coming?
<ace_suares1> youcanlinux: glad you are here :0
<youcanlinux> i'm trying to get more involved in the community. Not easy, but I figure I'll give it a try...
<ScottK> sabayon got removed from Debian and there was some discussion on #ubuntu-devel today about should Ubuntu remove it too.
<ace_suares1> youcanlinux: what's your qualities and interests? Coding, Docs, translation, ???
<ace_suares1> ScottK: hi scott.
<ace_suares1> sbalneav: what are you thought son that?
<ogra> ScottK, !!! no !
 * ace_suares1 corrects: thoughts on that ie removal of sabayon?
<youcanlinux> I can do technical writing and some translation. I am starting to do videos.
<ScottK> ogra: Just parroting what was said there.
<youcanlinux> tutorials.
<ogra> ScottK, we have an active maintainer who even participates upstream and just cant package
<ScottK> ogra: I'm not the one to talk to.
 * ace_suares1 seconds ogra
<ogra> ScottK, who decided that ?
<youcanlinux> and I do advocacy
<ScottK> ogra: I don't think it was decided. pitti was asking
<ScottK> I'd take it up with him.
<ace_suares1> youcanlinux: swell, you might be able to work with sbalneav on the handbook or with me on the wiki
<ace_suares1> youcanlinux: if i don't give it all up, then after the wiki i'd like to work on the website
<Ahmuck> morning
<ace_suares1> hi Ahmuck
<youcanlinux> you can look at my current website, youcanlinux.com, I'm redoing a video now.
<ace_suares1> removing sabayon from ubuntu in karmic would pose some problems for edubuntu, I guess.
<alkisg> Let's hear from sbalneav about this, I thought he was asked to take up as the debian sabayon maintainer?
<youcanlinux> but handbook and wiki sounds cool.
<youcanlinux> I'm going to be installing Karmic on my old laptop, hopefully this weekend. On this system I'm running 9.04
<ogra> ScottK, thanks a lot, i pinged him
<ace_suares1> youcanlinux: nice site. I'll study later. You are in a local linux club or just trying to start one up? Here in curacao it's near impossible to start a linux club, i've been trying for almost 7 years
<Ahmuck> iirc, sabayon was supposed to be included in karamic and then if something different that might peform the task easier and was easier to program became avaialbe a re-evalutaion would be done
<ace_suares1> sbalneav: ping!
<youcanlinux> It turns out there is a local club, kind of, it's still a ways from here, but they weren't on any LUG list and I stumbled upon it. You're in Brazil ?
<youcanlinux> Thanks, by the way.
<ace_suares1> ogra since you here, and this question for all others too,  I want to move the specs but leave a redirect in their old locations so nothing will break. Any objections to that?
<ace_suares1> I am in www.curacao.com
<youcanlinux> Very nice. Curacao looks like a paradise.
<ogra> ace_suares1, i'll try to keep out of that discussin, i'm with LaserJock here ...
<ScottK> JFTR, wiki moves are generally a bad idea
<Ahmuck> what's the meeting about ?
<youcanlinux> Hi Ahmuck and everybody, I was just introducing myself. I'm in southern Canada.
<sbalneav> ace_suares1: Sorry, management walked into my orifice :)
<ace_suares1> ScottK: but a new copy of somehting, with a redirect in the old place, that is not considered a move, is it?
<ace_suares1> sbalneav: wb!
<ogra> ScottK, thats what Laser said in his mail to the list, but i wont pretend to be the bad guy for edubuntu stuff anymore, if moves are needed i said my words :)
<sbalneav> Sorry, what's this about removing sabayon?
<ogra> sbalneav, so you should have a word with pitti, apparently the desktop team woants to remove sabayon altogether from ubuntu because there is nobody taking care
<sbalneav> Oh, thought I was :)
<ogra> sbalneav, so express to him that you take care but need someone to do the packaging and uploads :)
<sbalneav> ok, I can talk to him.
<sbalneav> In #ubuntu?
<ogra> he might be gone for the day though
<sbalneav> OK
<ogra> we all had a long day here (with release meeting)
<sbalneav> Yeah, he's gone
 * ogra is busy since 12h now and wanted to go long ago already :)
<sbalneav> pitti@ubuntu.com or pitti@canonical.com
 * ace_suares1 gives ogra chocolate bar for more energy
<sbalneav> ?
<ogra> but the sabayon statement couldnt stay uncommented :)
<sbalneav> I'll send him an email.
<ogra> sbalneav, i guess both works
<sbalneav> ok
<ogra> Martin Pitt <martin.pitt@ubuntu.com>
<ogra> heh, neither :P
<sbalneav> okiedoke, sending an email
<Ahmuck> so, what's the meeting about?
<ogra> sbalneav, and pay ScottK a beer once you meet him, he pointed it out
<Ahmuck> hi noy
<noy> hello
<youcanlinux> I need to get the gnupg going and get a launchpad account. I've been meaning to...
<ogra> ace_suares1, btw, onmce you get meetings with proper agenda and assign actiona items etc, you should make friends with MootBot here in this channel ;) its a very helpful tool to organize meetings and will write a lot of the log stuff for you (its documented somewhere on the wiki, all teams use it usually)
<ace_suares1> okay thanks I will definately do that ogra
<ace_suares1> I contacted scribes team but didn't get a reaction at all.
 * ogra cant type anymore
<ogra> they are not very active, but not dead either i think
<ace_suares1> maybe they don't like me or they are dead
<ogra> no, they care for the bug which is used daily
<ogra> *bot
<ogra> sorry
<ace_suares1> okay
<ogra> i really need to stop working now ...
<sbalneav> ok, I've sent hom an email
<ace_suares1> I'll check the bot
<ogra> check the wiki too, there is docs for it
 * ace_suares1 sends ogra some immediate sleep
<ogra> heh, see you and enjoy your meeting guys :)
<ace_suares1> So, just to be clear (ogra, you don't need to answer ;-): I can put the specs in another place and make redirects from the old locaitons and everybody will be happy?
<ace_suares1> even ScottK and LaserJock?
<ace_suares1> It's an hour in the meeting, does anyone have more points or issues? Else, someone ring the bell :)
<youcanlinux> ding ding ?
<ace_suares1> guess the meeting is over then...
<sbalneav> bonk
<youcanlinux> my schedule will be different next week, but let's see how it goes.
<ace_suares1> bye all
<youcanlinux> bye
<alkisg> bye
<ScottK> ace_suares1: So you say you're going to do the opposite of what I've told you repeatedly and expect I'll be happy?  I have no idea what planet that make sense on.
#ubuntu-meeting 2009-09-12
<jbeat> we
<putos> ?
<putos> ?
<jbeat> :=
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-09-13
<kees> meetin' time?
<robbiew> :)
<jdstrand> o/
<mdeslaur> yep
<kees> okay, I'll start...
<kees> this coming week I've got a few things to publish, and I'm going to start up a kernel cycle too
<kees> I've got openoffice on deck, and while I wait for that to build, I'm hoping to snag a few other low-hanging fruits.
<kees> I spent a fair bit of time last week reviewing glibc issues, mainly the longjmp borkage on amd64+fortify
<kees> beyond that, I'm done.  mdeslaur!
<mdeslaur> so...I have an embargoed issue I'm working on
<mdeslaur> and then will continue php5 updates
<mdeslaur> and am on community this week
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<jjohansen> \o
 * sbeattie can go next.
<jdstrand> go ahead
<jdstrand> hey jjohansen
<jjohansen> sbeattie: please I didn't mean to interrupt
<sbeattie> I've pushed a no-change rebuild of ant to the security-proposed pocket; I still need to test out building openjdk locally.
<sbeattie> I do have a question on publishing ant, should I issue a USN for it?
<jdstrand> sbeattie: can you remind me of the issue again?
<kees> sbeattie: we tend to be of two minds on this. I generally do not do USNs for rebuilds.
<jdstrand> (ie, why you need t upload ant)
<kees> sbeattie: e.g. when we moved the compiler from -updates to -security, I didn't do a USN.
<sbeattie> Anyway, the plan is once I get ant published in the security pocket, then push an openjdk SRU no-chagne rebuild to fix the regressions with building openjdk against the non-updates ant.
<jdstrand> sbeattie: so ant isn't broken because of the new openjdk, it is that openjdk won't build because of the old ant. correct?
<sbeattie> jdstrand: short answer is that ant/lucid got updated to fix mis-compilation with openjdk, but publishing through -security keepos reintroducing those bugs.
<jdstrand> then no USN imo
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: if you're going to do a openjdk SRU, why did you need to build ant in -security?
<jdstrand> if ant was broken, then a -2 or similar
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: for the next time we do an openjdk security update.
<mdeslaur> ah, ok
<mdeslaur> cool
<sbeattie> that was what we agreed upon.
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: yeah, but I suffer from memory fragmentation issues
 * sbeattie is steering by advice given, not pure obstinance.
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: don't we all.
<ScottK> mdeslaur: I didn't think you were old enough for that.
<mdeslaur> ScottK: oh? :)
<jdstrand> ScottK: you wouldn't think so, yet... here we are
<jdstrand> :P
<sbeattie> anyway, other stuff: apparmor 2.5.1: fixed and pulled a few more issues, and I've finally spun a 2.5.1 rc1 candidate tarball and pushed to the launchpad page: https://launchpad.net/apparmor/+download
<ScottK> You being a youngster and all (or at least well preserved)
<sbeattie> I'm aware jjohansen has at least one more patch he wants in.
<sbeattie> I also need to announce the rc1 upload to the mail list.
<jdstrand> sbeattie, jjohansen: how much of the rc1 official is different from what is in maverick now?
<jdstrand> (and what else do we want to target to maverick)
<sbeattie> jdstrand: I think it's the same except for a few changes I made to the toplevel Makefile and the common/Make.rules to support automating tarball/snapshot generation.
<jdstrand> ah cool
<sbeattie> (I was a bad release manager, I committed those changes without signoff)
<jjohansen> sbeattie: nah it was just preacked ;)
<kees> I'd like to see 2.5.1 in maverick (and then SRUd to lucid at some point...)
<jjohansen> jdstrand: I have the one outstanding patch I need to finish up
<jdstrand> kees: 2.5.1rc1 is in maverick now
<jjohansen> mavericks kernel is newer than 2.5.1
 * jdstrand is curious about the test suite issues he found last week
<jjohansen> jdstrand: I've started looking and will get back to you on them
<sbeattie> jjohansen: thanks.
<jdstrand> jjohansen: cool. I would think that if there are userspace issues, they might be 2.5.1 candidates, or at the very least 2.5.2 and we pull into maverick
<jjohansen> jdstrand: I am okay with that
<jdstrand> nice
<sbeattie> yep, makes sense.
<sbeattie> anyway, other than that, I'm on triage this week.
<sbeattie> and I think that's all I've got. jdstrand?
<jdstrand> so, as inferred, I got apparmor 2.5.1rc1 into maverick last week. I also did a lot with browser updates and published sudo
<jdstrand> for this week, I am working on two embargoed issues and another round of firefox/tbird testing (upstream regressions)
<jdstrand> I'm also trying to get the chromium in lucid-proposed pushed into -security and -updates... need to followup with ubuntu-sru
<jdstrand> kees: since you are our TB liaison, could you give a highlevel status update on what is happening with chromium and -security, etc
<kees> jdstrand: sure, one sec
 * kees reviews the emails again
<jdstrand> I forgot to mention that I wasn't able to do anything with libvirt last week due to the above, and that it looks like I may not be able to again this week
<jdstrand> I have libvirt packages in the security ppa and I feel really good about them, but lucid's libvirt requires changes to virtinstall for sure, vmbuilder (not likely), and testing with virt-manager and eucalyptus
<jdstrand> err, vmbuilder *is* likely
<jdstrand> I don't think euca will be affected cause they don't use snapshots or backing stores
<kees> jdstrand: there isn't exactly an approved approach for chromium yet. it sounds like the "just publish it" approach is the only way to move forward, though.
<jdstrand> the other three will likely require me to develop patches (though virtinstall upstream did just last week add the functionality required, so I might be able to just snag it)
<jdstrand> kees: it would be nice to get that formalized. fwiw, I'd like to see an approval for whatever upstream gives us (like mozilla), with only the minimal changes to debian/ allowed for making it build on that release
<kees> jdstrand: agreed, I'll ping about it.
<jdstrand> kees: it has been kinda weird lately cause chromium has needed NEW packages like gyp and libvdx to even build it
<kees> jdstrand: what was the status of upstream giving us access to pre-release code?
<kees> yay
<jdstrand> kees: but, only chromium needs those. another weird one is chromium-codecs-ffmpeg which needs to be part of the SRU-policy because it needs to move in step with chromium
<jdstrand> kees: total silence
<jdstrand> kees: nothing uses chromium-codecs-ffmpeg except chromium, so that shouldn't be a huge deal (but I wonder why we can't just put these tarballs inside chromium if *nothing* is using them)
<jdstrand> nothing *else* that is
<kees> yeah :(
<jdstrand> kees: well, let me clarify my 'total silence' comment
<jdstrand> kees: fta builds daily releases off of upstream code
<kees> email sent...
<jdstrand> due to the silence from upstream, we don't have any information on if the commits are security relevant, the timing of said commits or if the fixes were even in the dailies as compared to their final release
<jdstrand> so we are pretty much in the dark
<jdstrand> afaics
<kees> okay
<jdstrand> kees: fta may have another perspective
<jdstrand> anyhoo, that is it from mee
<jdstrand> me
<jdstrand> kees: thanks for following up on that :)
<kees> okidoky. any other issues for the security team? robbiew, nxvl, jjohansen ?
<robbiew> nope
<jjohansen> none here
<kees> okay, thanks everyone!
<robbiew> thnx kees
<Xaphania> !seen laura
<ubottu> I have no seen command
<czajkowski> hmm
<Xaphania> HellOlAloHallOhayo.. I HI.. SALUT bonjour guten tag good morning coucou ohayo salutÃ© hasta siempre la victoria.
 * Xaphania Quentin
<Manuelbrs> hola
<Manuelbrs> alguien que me pueda ayudar con un paso q me hace falta para formar parte de ubuntu colombian team?
<Manuelbrs> alguien aqui que pueda brindarme ayuda?
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-09-14
<Manuelbrs> alguien que brinde ayuda aqui?
<kklimonda> !es | Manuelbrs
<ubottu> Manuelbrs: En la mayorÃ­a de canales de Ubuntu se habla sÃ³lo en inglÃ©s. Si busca ayuda en espaÃ±ol o charlar entra en el canal #ubuntu-es. Escribe "/join #ubuntu-es" (sin comillas) y dale a enter.
<kklimonda> I wonder whether it's the right language.
<Manuelbrs> gracias
<Mosibe> Buenas
 * persia peers about
 * persia doesn't see prabhash, or anything else on the agenda, so figures the meeting must be cancelled
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 08:06. The chair is NCommander.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<GrueMaster> Morning.
 * NCommander forgot that this meeting was in the morning after a month in China
<mpoirier_> o/
<dyfet> *blink*
<davidm> G'day NCommander
 * NCommander swears
<NCommander> I think the wiki page forgot to save
<NCommander> give me a sec
<ogra> hmm
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
<MootBot> New Topic:  Action Item Review
<ogra> you dont have the action items ...
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to talk to rsalveti about the darn EDID spec, reassigning it and new workitems
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to talk to rsalveti about the darn EDID spec, reassigning it and new workitems
<ogra> done
<rsalveti> working on it now :-)
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to clean up thumb2 assignments from http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-mobile-assigned-bug-tasks.html which he definitely wont work on this cycle
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to clean up thumb2 assignments from http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/team-assigned/canonical-mobile-assigned-bug-tasks.html which he definitely wont work on this cycle
<NCommander> c/o
<ogra> pfft
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to clearify uboot-imx bugs with jcrigby
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to clearify uboot-imx bugs with jcrigby
<ogra> c/o
<ogra> imx is really low prio
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to update the title and generalize bug 628029
<ogra> at least that part
<MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to update the title and generalize bug 628029
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 628029 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Maverick) "[maverick] panda ES1.0 does not suspend on beta image" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/628029
<ogra> whoops
<ogra> c/o
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander to talk to davidm about adding dove to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickMeerkat/ReleaseManifest
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander to talk to davidm about adding dove to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickMeerkat/ReleaseManifest
<NCommander> Done
 * ogra applauds
<NCommander> [TOPIC] Standing Items
<MootBot> New Topic:  Standing Items
<NCommander> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile.html
<NCommander> http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.10.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.10.html
<ogra> wohooo !
<ogra> below trend
<NCommander> yay
<ogra> well, not in the overall one
<ogra> but for 10.10
<NCommander> [TOPIC] Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier, lag(
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel Status (cooloney, mpoirier, lag(
<mpoirier_> nothing to declare.
<ogra> bug 605042 ... will screw us if we dont find a fix on imx51
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 605042 in eglibc (Ubuntu Maverick) "[armel] java fails to start with eglibc-2.12-0ubuntu4" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/605042
<persia> I thought that was fixed with the reversion to b18
<ogra> persia, the buildd screwup ?
<ogra> no
<lag> I have
<persia> Oh :(
<ogra> the kernel on the buildds makes java segfault
<lag> o/    When you're ready
<ogra> which makes all packages using java binaries ftbfs
<ogra> lag, go
<lag>  * Marvel (mvl-dove)
<lag>    * Nothing new this week
<lag>  * Freescale (fsl-imx51)
<lag>    * ON GOING : B605042: Java segfault on Freescale iMX5.1 Babbage board with Lucid - will try to bisect Lucid 2.6.31 kernel
<lag>  * Texas Instruments (ti-omap)
<lag>    * ON GOING : B591941 Original patch was not complete - Adrian Hunter should release the final patch this week.
<lag>    * ON GOING : B608266 Fix submitted and accepted - still waiting for mobile team to test.
<lag>    * ON GOING : B633227 ES2.0 board is unstable when highmem is enabled - backported a patch from upstream to solve memtester issue
<lag>    * ON GOING : B628029 ES2.0 board does not boot with CONFIG_PM enabled
<lag>    * NEW      : B622935 a patch has been written - author needs to send it upstream
<lag>    * PATCH    : Lots of TI audio patches have now been applied - testing under way
<lag>    * PATCH    : B563650 upstream patch was applied
<lag>    * PATCH    : B477106 Lucid alpha-2 and earlier freeze upon suspend with sd card plugged in with some hardware
<lag>    * PATCH    : B588243 upstream patch was applied
<lag>    * FIXED    : B613855 omap3 beagle XM MMC card always comes up read-only
<lag>    * FIXED    : B605488 scheduling while atomic: mmcqd/46/0x00000002
<lag>    * FIXED    : B589624 omap flavour does not work on beagle XM board
<lag>    * FIXED    : B605832 LG monitor behaving incorrectly when used in conjunction with the Panda board and HDMI
<lag>    * FIXED    : B477106 Maverick alpha-2 and earlier freeze upon suspend with sd card plugged in with some hardware
<lag>    * FIXED    : B592295 omapdss DISPC error: SYNC_LOST_DIGIT
<lag>    * FIXED    : B628107 false alarm - first boot loaded unstable kernel
<lag> ..
<ogra> i see some weird display issues on omap4 at,
<ogra> *atm
<ogra> which are not easily reproducable
<GrueMaster> I will be testing 608266 today.
<rsalveti> ogra: like what?
<ogra> screen goes black and i can only get it back when switching consoles
<lag> Yeah, I have that
<lag> Although, when I do switch consoles, I only have a display for a few seconds then that dies too
<ogra> EEEK !
 * ogra just looked at dmesg on his panda for the first time this week
<ogra> [89357.432678] swapper: page allocation failure. order:3, mode:0x4020
<ogra> *sigh*
<ogra> lots of them
<rsalveti> =\
<ogra> gah, i thought that was gone
<ogra> lag, it stays for me and i dont have anything display related in dmesg usually
<GrueMaster> Is that today's image?
<ogra> GrueMaster, yesterdays
<rsalveti> but kernel should be the same
<lag> ogra: Mine just went black :(
 * ogra wishes dmesg would have proper timestamps
<GrueMaster> I'm running 20100913 on ES2 and not seeing the page allocation failures.
<ogra> i just did lots of apt-get stuff on the panda, i wonder if the page allocation stuff is related
<ogra> but hard to tell without a proper timestamp
<lag> Okay, it's staying now
<lag> But there's no messages in dmesg
<ogra> right
<ogra> same for me
<ogra> i wonder if userspace triggers some DPMS stuff that hangs until you switch consoles
<lag> No, I have it
<persia> Might be better to do the low-legel debugging discussion after the meeting...
<ogra> persia, indeed
<lag> It's the GFX_FIFO_UNDERFLOW again
<lag> ack
<ogra> lag, ah, i think i saw that
<NCommander> can I move on?
<lag> ..
<ogra> NCommander, go
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster)
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA Status (GrueMaster)
<GrueMaster> Worked a bit on a script to generate a launchpad report with all open bugs.  WIP.
<GrueMaster> Most of my testing is on apps atm.  Testing on all running systems as simultaneously as possible.
<GrueMaster> I'm still getting some random, hard to reproduce bugs that don't generate enough debug output for the devs to work on.
 * ogra looked at go-home-applet today
<GrueMaster> I saw that, cool.
<ogra> and found some work for our contractor :)
<GrueMaster> Will it get fixed before release?
<GrueMaster> We are weeks away.
<ogra> GrueMaster, if you find bugs that are clearly -efl, feel free to assign to him (and notify me)
<ogra> i'm working on a fix for go-home today
<GrueMaster> I'll need his info.
<ogra> not sure about efl
<ogra> look at the bug :)
<GrueMaster> Ok.
<ogra> i assigned the efl part to him
<ogra> and go-home to me
<GrueMaster> Go-home looks like an easy fix.  porting the add-to-fav's may be a little more work.
<GrueMaster> And not as critical.
<ogra> i'm also going through the remaining jasper bugs today
<GrueMaster> I also filed a low priority bug on go-home-applet wrt the version reported.
<ogra> sadly our contractor is in a werid TZ
<GrueMaster> aren't we all. :P
<ogra> like US westcoast ... i think
<ogra> :P
<ogra> so i havent talked to him yet
<GrueMaster> Erm, that is the pacific Standard timezone, thankyou.
<NCommander> can I move on?
<GrueMaster> go
<ogra> ++
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, dyfet)
<dyfet> Well, I am focused this morning on two packages, gcl and hdf5
<ogra> great !
<ogra> doko asked for them
<dyfet> I am trying to reduce the hdf5 issue into a simple test case
<NCommander> ubiquity remains dead on Dove
<NCommander> (and armel in general I guess)
<NCommander> Looking into that this week
<dyfet> gcl I think may be an underlying toolchain bug
<ogra> NCommander, dead as in FTBFS ?
<NCommander> ogra: segfault
<ogra> NCommander, note that ubiquity runs fine on omap
<ogra> so must be either dove specific or partitioner issue
<NCommander> ogra: ubiquity is running in oem-config mode, and not in full installation mode.
<ogra> since we use everything but the partitioner on omap
<NCommander> ogra: right. I'm working on it.
<ogra> k
<NCommander> We might just change to alternates for release if necessary if this proves difficult to fix (already discussed with davidm)
<ogra> oem-config mode isnt much different to normal install mode
<ogra> just adds the extra panel and supresses partitining
<ogra> NCommander, why not preinstalled ?
<ogra> would save us QA effort
<NCommander> ogra: cause 1. preinstall images require hacks to livecd-rootfs.sh for each subarch 2. you actually want to install on Dove since it has both SATA, and FTL NAND
<davidm> NCommander, I really don't want to use alternates
<GrueMaster> Not much.  I actually have more infrastructure to support installs on dove.
<ogra> NCommander, leave 2 to server installation ;)
<GrueMaster> And the installer works on Dove A0.
<GrueMaster> Just not on unsupported hw.
<ogra> and 1) isnt really a big issue
<NCommander> GrueMaster: it does? I thought it was segfaulting during installation
<GrueMaster> That was fixed last week.
<NCommander> GrueMaster: oh good. yeah, its known to do that on unsupported installation. I'm working with cjwatson to resolve it.
<NCommander> GrueMaster: ah, I must have missed it in my bug mail
<ogra> ah, so we talk about a non-issue ?
<ogra> great
<NCommander> ogra: it must have gotten fixed while I was in transit (I hadn't tested since Thursday)
<GrueMaster> The last image available (20100910 I believe) installed fine yesterday.
<NCommander> \o/
<NCommander> execellent
<ogra> 0910 ?
<ogra> its 14th today
<ogra> NCommander, can you check crontab and make sure dailies build ?
<ogra> i think there was a big difference between tree and real crontab when i checked
<NCommander> ogra: will do
<ogra> just didnt have the time to fix it
<GrueMaster> 20100909 is the latest (looking on cdimage now.
<GrueMaster> )
<NCommander> ogra: I *really* want to know who is changed it; I know I had the tree and the actual crontab in sync
<ogra> yeah, seems like dailies dont happen
<ogra> 0910 was a manual build i did
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to smash antimony's crontab's with a big large golden brick
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to smash antimony's crontab's with a big large golden brick
<NCommander> [topic] Weekly Activity Reports (all)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Activity Reports (all)
<GrueMaster> Not seeing dailies for omap either.
<GrueMaster> omap4 is ok.
<ogra> [action] NCommander to put something fluffy aounrd the golden brick
<NCommander> This topic is a request from davidm for us to do our activity reports here in the meeting
<NCommander> (if I understood him right)
<ogra> NCommander, yes, he asked me too to take care
<NCommander> so I'll go first
<NCommander> [topic] NCommander's status
<MootBot> New Topic:  NCommander's status
<ogra> NCommander, but to have them on the wiki
<NCommander> oh
 * NCommander coughs
<NCommander> Ok
<ogra> dont make the meeting longer
<NCommander> [action] EVERYONE to put their status on the wiki
<MootBot> ACTION received:  EVERYONE to put their status on the wiki
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<ogra> action me with hunting people down for them
<ogra> did we have image status ?
<NCommander> gah
<rsalveti> there's a question regarding the opengl es powervr sgx driver
<NCommander> [topic] CDimage Status
<MootBot> New Topic:  CDimage Status
<ogra> heh
<rsalveti> for AOB
<NCommander> (thanks ogra)
<GrueMaster> Easier for me to add to wiki than to type it out at 6:40am.
<ogra> we seem to have bad HW
<ogra> acorn constantly fails
<NCommander> ogra: yeah, the crontab looks like it got changed for beta and never reverted. I'm just going to save a copy and apply the tree (which is what we were using pre-beta)
<ogra> usually only survives a day or two
<ogra> NCommander, fine with me
 * NCommander does a manual spin for Dove
<ogra> i asked lamont to try to find out when exactly it fails ... (under load or during idling)
<ogra> but we have no outcome there yet
<NCommander> speaking of acorn
<NCommander> Its dead
<ogra> NCommander, yeah
<NCommander> ssh: connect to host acorn.buildd port 22: No route to host
<NCommander> :-/
<ogra> you should have gotten mail about the failed omap build this morning
<ogra> if thats emopty its a good indicator its dead
<NCommander> ogra: I did.
<NCommander> ogra: I hadn't looked at the email though in depth
<GrueMaster> Last one I got was two days ago.
<NCommander> [action] NCommander to change buildlive to send an email to lamont if acorn is down
<MootBot> ACTION received:  NCommander to change buildlive to send an email to lamont if acorn is down
<NCommander> :-)
<ogra> mean !
<ogra> i doubt he likes that
<ogra> and he cant do much anyway
<NCommander> ogra: well, if you have a better target ...
<ogra> since it requires someone to drive over to the location and reboot it by hand
<NCommander> ugh
<NCommander> disregard then:-/
<ogra> someone of the guys who drive over ;)
<ogra> i mean, i'm sure lamont would like to know about it ... but effectively he will only trigger manual intervention
<ogra> NCommander, ask in #is if they would like such a thing and to whom
<NCommander> ogra: k
<ogra> though it smells to me like we need to replace the board soon
<ogra> its diening more often than it used to
<ogra> and the OS is the same all over the place so its unlikely to be software
 * NCommander wonders if the kernel team was allowed near it
<ogra> heh
<NCommander> I think that's everything
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<rsalveti> so, regarding the powervr sgx driver for omap3
<rsalveti> latest version they changed the license
<rsalveti> from export control to TSPA (no registration required)
<ogra> sweet !
<rsalveti> and from the license definition we're able to distribute it
<ogra> does that mean we can pull it to multiverse ?
<rsalveti> still restricted, but we can pull it
<rsalveti> as they libraries are just binaries
<rsalveti> don't know how we work with proprietary stuff
<ogra> well, if its suitable for restricted/multiverse we should immediately upload it there
<rsalveti> there are 2 pieces, one is the kernel part, that's GPL
<ogra> and build our images with it
<rsalveti> another is the libraries
<rsalveti> I created a first version for the packages, and described the test howto at http://people.canonical.com/~rsalveti/maverick/sgx/HOWTOINSTALL.txt
<ogra> if its not different to nvidia/fglrx we can use it
<rsalveti> for now I'm separating the kernel part because we should discuss to understand where it should be integrated
<rsalveti> ogra: guess it's the same
<ogra> rsalveti, you shouldnt use m-a
<ogra> use DKMS
<rsalveti> http://www.flickr.com/photos/rsalveti/4989404974/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/rsalveti/4989404974/
<rsalveti> the driver running with beagle xM
<ogra> if you could repack them with DKMS they can go in
<persia> rsalveti, Could you post the license somewhere?
<rsalveti> ogra: yep, saw that after using m-a
<rsalveti> persia: sure
<rsalveti> ogra: I can work on it
<ogra> awesome !
<rsalveti> ogra: then the libraries also need some more love
<ogra> that would be a big step
<rsalveti> as it'll conflict with mesa ones
<ogra> like nividas
<ogra> or fglrx
<ogra> look at these packages
<persia> No, it's not as bad as nvidia, but there's work to be done
<ogra> they handle the mesa replacements somehow
<rsalveti> persia: http://people.canonical.com/~rsalveti/maverick/sgx/TSPA.txt
<rsalveti> ogra: yep, will check with these packages
<rsalveti> and with asac, as I remember there was a proposal for opengles
<ogra> cool, thanks a lot, thats so awesome
<ogra> you really really rock !"
<rsalveti> Object Code License.  For the Licensed Materials provided in object code format, TI hereby grants to you a limited, non-exclusive license to reproduce and use the Licensed Materials provided to you in object code format and to distribute an unlimited number of object or executable copies of such object code Licensed Materials.
<ogra> all beer at UDS is on me !
<GrueMaster> Very nice.  With those installed how well does unity work?
<rsalveti> this is the piece that I like the most, from the license
<ogra> GrueMaster, i think clutter still has issues
<GrueMaster> Damn, I won't be there for free beer.
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: still didn't check unity
<rsalveti> but probably has issues
<ogra> and i think we'll need an xserver for it long term ...
<ogra> which doesnt exist at all afaik
<rsalveti> persia: can you check the license later?
<rsalveti> to see if I'm right on it
<persia> rsalveti, that license looks OK, depending on the additional materials provided: stuff that falls afoul of the export restrictions, registration requirments, royalty requirements, etc. might have to be multiverse.  Other stuff could be universe.
<rsalveti> cool
<ogra> persia, well, main then
<persia> I'm not authoritative, but I've read a lot of licenses, so there's probably at least an 80% chance the archive-admins would have a similar opinion.
<ogra> if we can ship it we can add it to the images
<persia> ogra, Doesn't matter really.
<ogra> from an image guy POV it does :)
 * persia adds "really get rid of the main/universe distinction" to the list of things to bring to UDS
<persia> Not really, but sure :)
<ogra> well, make it "on image/not on image" then :P
<persia> Well, no, but never mind :)
<ogra> rsalveti, what about the GPLed kernel bit, culd we get it in the tree ?
<ogra> we wouldnt need m-a or DKMS then
<rsalveti> ogra: I'd love if we could move to the tree
<rsalveti> maybe to staging
<ogra> lag, ^^^ ??
<persia> lag, ?
<ogra> rsalveti, even as sauce or under the ubuntu/ dir :)
<rsalveti> ogra: could be
 * ogra doesnt mind how ... as long as we can get it
<rsalveti> lag: ?
<ogra> or mpoirier_ ^^^
<ogra> :)
<rsalveti> that's why he uses lag as nick
<ogra> yeah
<mpoirier_> Yes, no problem.
<ogra> there is a special meaning ... i always suspected that
<lag> Sorry
<mpoirier_> but again, I don't have a board to test.
<rsalveti> mpoirier_: do you have a beagle?
<ogra> mpoirier_, omap3 ?
<rsalveti> normal beagle
<mpoirier_> ok.
<ogra> C4 or some such will do
<ogra> we dont have these libs for omap4 yet
<mpoirier_> omap3 - no problem.
<rsalveti> mpoirier_: if you can work on it I'll send you the links
<rsalveti> we can talk on #ubuntu-arm
<mpoirier_> yes indeed, more more details.
<NCommander> we're almost out of time, can I close the meeting?
<rsalveti> no more topics from me
<NCommander> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:59.
<bilalakhtar> Keybuk: Howdy!
<bilalakhtar> Keybuk: Is there some part of Upstart in which I can help?
<Keybuk> which bit would you like to help with?
<bilalakhtar> Keybuk: I am an intermediate developer, so would like to help out in developing some easy part
<bilalakhtar> perhaps Upstart is made up of difficult code!
<Keybuk> there aren't really many easy parts
<Keybuk> there isn't much code, in fact
<bilalakhtar> Upstart is small? o_O
<Keybuk> yeah, 4000-odd lines of code
<Keybuk> and a portion of those are auto-generated
<bilalakhtar> okay, that's small-to-medium
<Keybuk> what kind of projects do you work on at the moment?
<bilalakhtar> Keybuk: Ubuntu (Of course!), Gwibber, The papercuts project
<bilalakhtar> trivial parts!
<Keybuk> what languages?
<bilalakhtar> Keybuk: C mainly, then comes python and PHP
 * BlackZ thinks this is not the right channel to talk about that
<bilalakhtar> Keybuk: That;s all, I will look at a few upstart bugs to begin with, if I am able to fix 'em. Thanks!
<bilalakhtar> BlackZ: okay
<Keybuk> that's probably the best way to get started
<Keybuk> take a look at some bugs and ask me how I'd fix them
<AnAnt> Hello, I possibly won't be able to attend the DMB today, since something has come up at work. If I don't show up, then I'm sorry for that very short notice.
<cjwatson> hi
<bilalakhtar> hello there cjwatson !
<angelabad> hi
<cjwatson> geser,persia,stgraber,soren: ping
<MichealH> Hi bilalakhtar , cjwatson
<cjwatson> can't see Cody or Richard on IRC
<geser> Hi
<bilalakhtar> 'Hi' has replaced 'pong' nowadays
<geser> pong :)
<bilalakhtar> geser: :D
<ari-tczew> poor attendance :(
<czajkowski> cjwatson: don't know if you saw but anAnt gave apologies there at 15:45 for DMB today
<cjwatson> I did
 * bilalakhtar fears a repeat of 31st of august
<ari-tczew> wake up
<bilalakhtar> calm down, ari-tczew let us wait
<cjwatson> lack of attendance is certainly beginning to irritate me.  we should switch to the new schedule next meeting
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: (the people who see what you're saying are *already here*)
<bilalakhtar> cjwatson: Monday 12:00 UTC?
<ari-tczew> 12:00 UTC is very early date
<bilalakhtar> ari-tczew: It will keep on rotating
<cjwatson> the new schedule is alternating 12:00 UTC and 19:00 UTC on Mondays
<MichealH> 12:00 = Cant do
<cjwatson> no single time fits everyone
<MichealH> cjwatson: Agreed
<bilalakhtar> for me, almost every time fits. I am in the middle of the world :)
<ari-tczew> <3 <3 <3 <3 <3
<MichealH> bilalakhtar: Me too
 * bilalakhtar wants ari-tczew to calm down
<cjwatson> I've SMSed Soren
<ari-tczew> bilalakhtar: I;m very relaxed, don't be afraid.
<ari-tczew> just love sarcasm :P
<MichealH> ari-tczew: Well, If you didnt notice, this place is for formal discussions :)
<cjwatson> let me see if I can find Cody's and Emmet's numbers
<bilalakhtar> I saw soren around 45 minute earlier on #launchpad
<cjwatson> SMSed Cody
<cjwatson> SMSed Emmet
<cjwatson> Cody sends apologies
<bilalakhtar> :(
<ari-tczew> let's go drinking!
<cjwatson> does anyone have Richard's or StÃ©phane's mobile numbers?
<geser> cjwatson: didn't nixternal send recently an email with his number to the DMB list (in a reply for missing votes)?
<cjwatson> good call.  I'll text him
 * MichealH could help if needed
<cjwatson> only if you have StÃ©phane's mobile number ...
<czajkowski> MichealH: I think they're trying to actually get the DMB members here
<cjwatson> other than that I've done the best I can
<MichealH> czajkowski: Okay
<bilalakhtar> Thanks cjohnston , let us hope your efforts do make a difference
<bilalakhtar> argh
<bilalakhtar> tab-fail
<bilalakhtar> cjwatson: ^^
<bilalakhtar> cjohnston: sorry, unping
<MichealH> bilalakhtar: Let me gues... cj<tab>
<MichealH> hehe
<MichealH> Do cjw<tab>
 * bilalakhtar goes for praying, will be back in 5 mins to see what's going on
<cjwatson> assuming :-( that nobody else shows up, I propose we hold an extra meeting to try to catch up, so the schedule would be: Monday 20 Sep @ 1200 UTC, Monday 27 Sep @ 1900 UTC, Monday 11 Oct @ 1200 UTC, Monday 25 Oct @ 1900 UTC
<cjwatson> and thenceforth every two weeks
<cjwatson> any objection?
<cjwatson> in the forlorn hope that we can actually get a quorum of board members to show
<czajkowski> cjwatson: if you're the only board member present, tis your call :)
<ari-tczew> get used to
<cjwatson> geser is here too
<czajkowski> ok 2
<ari-tczew>  Monday 27 Sep @ 1900 UTC my date
<MichealH> I can do 27@ 19:00
<cjwatson> we could start with 1900 instead if that suits the people who've been waiting for ages
<cjwatson> (i.e. 20 Sep @ 1900, 27 Sep @ 1200, 11 Oct @ 1900, ...)
<MichealH> I can do 10:00 UTC, yeah
<angelabad> I can  Monday 20 Sep @ 1200
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: I would prefer 20th Sep 19:00
<sconklin> I will show up at any time you choose
<cjwatson> MichealH: I don't see you on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda, are you applying?
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: last time me and angelabad were not reviewed due to not quorum
<MichealH> cjwatson: Im supporting bilalakhtar
<cjwatson> angelabad,bilalakhtar: quick show of hands on preferred time on 20 Sep?
<cjwatson> MichealH: ah
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: I know :-(
<angelabad> me last two times :-(
<MichealH> cjwatson: I cant do 12:00 UTC (at school)
<ari-tczew> angelabad: what do you think about 20th Sep 19:00 Utc?
<MichealH> I can do 19:00 UTC though cjwatson
<bilalakhtar> back
<bilalakhtar> MichealH: please!
<bilalakhtar> cjwatson: hmm, 19:00 UTC
<MichealH> bilalakhtar: ?
<angelabad> for at 20th the time isnt important
<bilalakhtar> MichealH: Please don't bug DMB members for nothing, your opinion is not needed right now
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: I don't want be demanding, but I guess that  next meeting should be planned for delayed people : me and angelabad
 * bilalakhtar doesn't know why he is missed out
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: certainly, the queue is in FIFO order
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: you're first on the list followed by angelabad
<bilalakhtar> then Jmos, then me
<bilalakhtar> *Kmos
<MichealH> So there is no meeting?
<ari-tczew> MichealH: bingo
<bilalakhtar> MichealH: :( not for now, some time later
<MichealH> Okay...
<ari-tczew> we just drinking coffe
 * MichealH /aways
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: are you agree with 20th Sep 19:00 UTC?
<cjwatson> yes.
<ari-tczew> angelabad: ^^
<angelabad> its ok for me
<ari-tczew> great!
<MichealH> ari-tczew: Its okay for me
<bilalakhtar> fine for me, though it might be a bit late in the night, but I accept it
<ari-tczew> MichealH: nice, but where are you on Agenda wiki page?
<cjwatson> sigh.  I think we have to give up on today.  I'm composing a mail to the DMB right now, and have set a calendar event for myself: barring objections, I'll send it to ubuntu-devel-announce on Thursday
<MichealH> ari-tczew: Im supporting bilalakhtar
<czajkowski> MichealH: then it really doesnt matter what time tbh, they are trying to sort a date out for candidates not supporters
<MichealH> czajkowski: Okay
<ari-tczew> czajkowski: hmm, are you also related to meeting?
<cjwatson> geser said by mail that he may not be able to make it at 1200 generally, but can make 1900
<czajkowski> ari-tczew: no
<cjwatson> soren is fine with 1900
<bilalakhtar> ari-tczew: czajkowski isn't, she is the leader of the loco-council
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: great 1900 rulez
<cjwatson> persia can't do 1900
<bilalakhtar> persia was usually fine with this time, what's the matter now?
<czajkowski> not leader, member.
<cjwatson> and I will harass everyone else
<cjwatson> bilalakhtar: 1900 is a pretty obnoxious time in Japan
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: could you update wiki for date?
<cjwatson> I will do
<cjwatson> 1500 UTC is just "stay up late" kind of thing
<bilalakhtar> soren might come on the channel soon, he is just away
<bilalakhtar> AND he was here an hour ago
<bilalakhtar> talking on #launchpad
<cjwatson> that would still only give us three
<ari-tczew> even so it's not quorum
<bilalakhtar> 3 - 4 = -1
<cjwatson> right, tetchy mail sent to dmb@
<cjwatson> sorry
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: maybe dmb should invite more members?
<ari-tczew> I suggest people like ScottK or dholbach
<cjwatson> we had a nomination pass recently, and will be starting an election for that soon
<ari-tczew> aha
<bilalakhtar> wah! I dropped a plan to go to the beach because of this meeting, and, *sad*
<highvoltage> cjwatson: did you get stgraber's number?
<cjwatson> highvoltage: yes
<cjwatson> bilalakhtar: I'm sorry :(
<bilalakhtar> cjwatson: ah, not your fault :)
<ari-tczew> bilalakhtar: I suggest you to prepare some other work till next meeting
<nixternal> argh, cjwatson sorry, I just got your message
<cjwatson> yay for SMS, eh?
<cjwatson> ok, well, we're really too late to start now even if (say) soren does show up
<nixternal> no, I forgot to turn my phone on this morning :)
<cjwatson> nixternal: see my mail to the board list, anyway
<nixternal> roger that
<bilalakhtar> cjwatson: Why are we late? What would stop you people from starting a meeting now for ari-tczew and angelabad , atleast?
<cjwatson> true.  but we still only have three
<angelabad> :(
<cjwatson> if somebody else shows up, and candidates are still here, and the channel is free, and people haven't had to wander off (which I'll need to do in about an hour and a quarter), then we can do some review
 * bilalakhtar hopes soren comes around and geser doesn't wander
<angelabad> I can wait for one hour more or less
<AnAnt> I'm here
<highvoltage> cjwatson: didn't you get hold of stgraber?
<bilalakhtar> AnAnt: The meeting hasn't started yet :(
<AnAnt> oh
<bilalakhtar> AnAnt: no quorum :((((((((((((((((((
<cjwatson> highvoltage: I don't have his phone number, and he isn't responding on IRC.  He's often not available at this time anyway
<highvoltage> cjwatson: ok, he's sitting right next to me (sorry I understood that you did)
<maco> highvoltage: poke him?
<highvoltage> cjwatson: he's poked, I'm not sure if it's too late though
<cjwatson> geser: are you still around?
 * stgraber waves
 * geser is still around
<AnAnt> so I made it
<cjwatson> aha!  then we have quorum, however briefly
<stgraber> sorry, Tuesday morning is always extremely busy ... we should really change meeting time
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:50. The chair is cjwatson.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<cjwatson> stgraber: see your mail
<stgraber> cjwatson: rocks!
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] MOTU Application: Artur Rona
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Application: Artur Rona
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: ... if you're still here
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: o/
<ari-tczew> Hello, my name is Artur and I like kebab.
<bilalakhtar> Wow! Meeting started! o_O
 * cjwatson finishes reading
<ari-tczew> Please ask if you have any doubts. I wouldn't leave understatements.
<cjwatson> ok, so the general opinion I'm getting reading through comments from others on your wiki page is that people had got the impression in the past that you were rather impatient and there were some concerns about making sure that everyone was on the same page regarding freeze processes and the like, but that things seemed to be improving
<cjwatson> as a MOTU, what would your focus over the next few weeks leading up to release be?
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: I prefer to work on merges during development cycle.
<ari-tczew> and till next development cycle I'd like fix security issues
<cjwatson> can you just clarify what you mean by "development cycle" there, as a few people use that term in different ways?
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: e.g. maverick May 2010 - Feature Freeze (13th Sep)
<cjwatson> gotcha
<cjwatson> there are great comments from the main security team members here
<maco> cjwatson: about his understanding of freezes, he came to me before feature freeze for sponsorship to ensure he wouldnt be breaking freeze
<cjwatson> what sort of state is universe security in at the moment?  I look at the raw data from time to time, but it doesn't really give the big picture
<cjwatson> maco: thanks
<cjwatson> (anyone else going to ask anything, or is it just me? :-) )
<nixternal> I noted that as well. Seems all comments are fairly positive with a few showing a bit of concern
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: I respect FF. do you mean Laney comment?
<nixternal> ari-tczew: what are your plans from now until release? if you were granted MOTU, what would see out of you in the next couple of weeks?
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: hm?  no, I meant the comments from Kees, Jamie, and Marc, which are all very positive
 * stgraber switches to the n900, needs to be out of the office for a few minutes
<cjwatson> nixternal: mm, I thought I asked that above :)
<cjwatson> 16:54 <cjwatson> as a MOTU, what would your focus over the next few weeks leading up to release be?
<nixternal> heh, I didn't see that one slip in
<ari-tczew> nixternal: yes, I just answered this to cjwatson
<ari-tczew> nixternal: http://paste.ubuntu.com/493711/
<nixternal> ahh, fix security issues. yeah, think i could have done without the paste
<nixternal> to early to read small fonts i guess
<ari-tczew> I would assure that I will ask on #ubuntu-motu when I will be not sure.
<nixternal> groovy
<ari-tczew> package don't need merging in future - libpdfbox-java and ddd
<ari-tczew> Looking on my comments, people see improve in my person and I'm going to better.
<cjwatson> I think I'm ready to vote at this point; does anyone have further questions?
 * geser has none
<nixternal> none here
<stgraber> nope
<ari-tczew> ;o
<cjwatson> [VOTE] Artur Rona for MOTU
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Artur Rona for MOTU.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
 * bilalakhtar rocks on ari-tczew 
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<ari-tczew> hoho!
<bilalakhtar> Congrats ari-tczew !
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: welcome, and thank you for your patience
<nixternal> congrats and welcome ari-tczew \o/
<ari-tczew> thanks everyone!
<bilalakhtar> ari-tczew is a MOTU!
<ari-tczew> bilalakhtar: calm down :P
<cjwatson> (excuse me, firefox is being slow again)
 * nixternal chuckles - chromium -dev is nice and fast :)
<ari-tczew> very long way, but it;s gained :)
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Universe Contributor Application: Angel Abad
<MootBot> New Topic:  Universe Contributor Application: Angel Abad
<cjwatson> angelabad: still here?
<angelabad> yes, im here
<angelabad> any questions?
<cjwatson> excuse me, my father just called, can somebody please drive for a bit?
<bilalakhtar> angelabad: they're reading, wait for a few minutes
<angelabad> ok, sorry
<nixternal> nice endorsements, looks like good work all around
<angelabad> nixternal, thanks!
<cjwatson> this all looks pretty good.  you mention you're planning on doing sponsorship work; what skills do you feel you need to develop there?
<nixternal> "I dont like very much that sometimes poorly tested software is included in Ubuntu distribution. Sometimes it is better to have stability that the latest version."   <- ahh, a breath of fresh air. my same exact thoughts, though I like to expand on that. I don't like when devs upload a crap package just to try and beat a freeze, or upload a package during the beginning of the cycle without much testing, therefor leading to a ton of blog
<cjwatson> cut off at "ton of blog"
<zkriesse> G'day...supporting my buddy bilalakhtar
<nixternal> ...therefor leading to a ton of blog posts and tweets on how to get around the mess they created
<angelabad> cjwatson, first gain more experience
<angelabad> cjohnston, and second improve my English
<angelabad> sorry cjwatson, and sorry for my lag
<cjwatson> anyone have further questions?
 * nixternal none
 * geser none too
<cjwatson> [VOTE] Angel Abad for Universe Contributor
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Angel Abad for Universe Contributor.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<cjwatson> (implies Ubuntu membership)
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<zkriesse> Can I vote?
<bilalakhtar> zkriesse: no!
<cjwatson> members of https://launchpad.net/~developer-membership-board may vote
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<nixternal> congrats and welcome angelabad \o/
<stgraber> sorry, just got back in the office
<bilalakhtar> Congrats angelabad !
<angelabad> thanks a lot!
 * bilalakhtar looks around for Kmos, but he isn't here
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<cjwatson> thanks angelabad, and keep it up :-)
<cjwatson> let's move on to bilalakhtar then
<angelabad> cjwatson, thanks!
 * bilalakhtar climbs up the stage
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] MOTU Application: Bilal Akhtar
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU Application: Bilal Akhtar
<geser> cjwatson: when looking at the agenda, can we finalize coolbhavi's application or are votes still missing?
<ari-tczew> +1 for geser
<cjwatson> geser: I think we can, how about I look at that when I'm preparing the minutes?
<bilalakhtar> +1 for cjwatson
<geser> cjwatson: sure, thanks
<JamesMR> +7 for me
<stgraber> yeah, back on a decent keyboard !
<bilalakhtar> My recent sponsorships, as I have mentioned, have been very much flawless, so I applied for MOTU
<bilalakhtar> I have been involved with the papercuts project as well, with kenvandine and seb128 sponsoring my changes
 * cjwatson is still reading
<geser> bilalakhtar: I see that you would like to see REVU in more use again: how do you plan do deal with the problem that people vanish after they got their package into the archive and leave the further maintainance to MOTU?
<bilalakhtar> geser: If I become MOTU, I would continue to fix bugs in packages, upgrade it from upstream, etc
<geser> bilalakhtar: for all packages you advocated on REVU?
<bilalakhtar> geser: I would never leave a package alone. For example, package gnome-media-player in Ubuntu has one bug, which I am unable to understand. I asked the reporter for more info, pending
<bilalakhtar> geser: I would subscribe to bug mail, add 'em to a list and keep updating/asking the uploader for upgrades
<bilalakhtar> ''em' above refers to packages
<geser> and if the uploader vanishes/doesn't respond?
<bilalakhtar> geser: then do it myself
 * geser is impressed
<bilalakhtar> as I said, I usually don't leave some work alone. I have been involved with upstream development of my package gnome-media-player as well
<cjwatson> so, hm.  I think you're the youngest applicant I remember reviewing.  It's really good to see people get seriously involved earlier.  How do you find that Ubuntu work ties in with things like school commitments?
<bilalakhtar> I have upgraded 3 packages in all
<AnAnt> brb
<bilalakhtar> cjwatson: my vacations are going on, and I am a lot free
<bilalakhtar> I keep spreading Ubuntu in my school a lot
<bilalakhtar> My computer lab has 3 computers running Ubuntu
<bilalakhtar> and
<bilalakhtar> almost the whole of my class has Ubuntu CDs
<bilalakhtar> I distributed it to them
<bilalakhtar> I will take breaks from developing only during exams for 2-3 weeks, that's all
<nixternal> ahh to be young and energetic again :D
<AnAnt> back
<maco> nixternal: maybe if you stopped tiring yourself out on that bike, old man
 * maco runs
<bilalakhtar> My schools will reopen after 2 weeks, but I will keep developing at full speed for atleast another month, upto 3-4 more months, then a 2 week break, then full speed again!
<JamesMR> bilalakhtar: what about revising for exams?
<bilalakhtar> JamesMR: I can manage it myself
<JamesMR> you'd surely need more than 2-3 weeks o.o
<nixternal> maco: I am starting to feel older and a hell of a lot grumpier, almost like ScottK grumpier :p
<bilalakhtar> I know python/PHP/C/C++/Java
<bilalakhtar> oops, add HTML/CSS to the list
<bilalakhtar> so I know quite a lot early and I can maintain MOTU if I become one, for atleast 6 years
<bilalakhtar> and I aim to become a canonical employee :D
<nixternal> bilalakhtar: thanks for taking care of krename. i usually do it since i love that app to death, but was gone during that time period. I see the good ol' KUBUNTU POT file crap caught you, glad I am not the only one that has been bitten by it
 * zkriesse would like to add something to bilalakhtar's list of contributions
<bilalakhtar> thanks nixternal
<bilalakhtar> Well
<bilalakhtar> no package can be called crap
<nixternal> bilalakhtar: also with that one, i am supposed to maintain it in debian but never get around to it, so if it needs updating in debian, you could always update there and try to sync locally. at least that is what I used to do
<bilalakhtar> Packages are cool
<cjwatson> could somebody paste the logs from after "<bilalakhtar> I will take breaks from developing only during exams for 2-3 weeks, that's all"?  I lost connectivity
<bilalakhtar> nixternal: definitely
<cjwatson> (by /msg)
<bilalakhtar> Anyone here going to give the logs to cjwatson or should I do?
<cjwatson> thanks, got it
<bilalakhtar> ah
<bilalakhtar> I keep learning things all the time
<stgraber> cjwatson: done
<bilalakhtar> and I still remember VB, my first language
<ari-tczew> cjwatson: http://paste.ubuntu.com/493726/
 * maco shudders
<bilalakhtar> I have always obeyed the Freezes, I requested and got an FF a month ago, though I was not goin to be the uploader of the package
<cjwatson> exams> can't begrudge you that, certainly.  I was just looking at ari-tczew's comment that he felt your application was requested too quickly; I can see it either way, you've been involved at least a few months now and certainly over the bare minimum.  How would you reply to his comment?
<bilalakhtar> hmm
<bilalakhtar> well
<bilalakhtar> there was a LOT of time between my first proper upload in Ubuntu and the beginning of my packaging work
<bilalakhtar> I began with being the PPA maintainer of gnome-media-player
<MichealH> Can I add something for bilalakhtar
<bilalakhtar> then tried getting it into Ubutnu
<bilalakhtar> *ubuntu
<cjwatson> MichealH: certainly
<bilalakhtar> then someone on #ubuntu-motu advised me it wa too late in the lucid cycle to get it into Ubuntu, so I tried it for maverick, and got it in
<bilalakhtar> I have 5 new packages pending an upload in Debian
<MichealH> He has been the one getting me intrested in bugs and packaging and has been a inspiration to me. I would definanly like to see him get +1's all round
<MichealH> Because he has helped me on my Packaging/MOTU/bug journeyu
<bilalakhtar> And sponsors on Debian have pointed out a few packaging mistakes there a few months ago, with a shared lib called liboauth
<bilalakhtar> packaging shared libs sure needs a lot of knowledge, which I learnt
<bilalakhtar> and
<seb128> bilalakhtar has been doing nice work on some desktop bugs
<bilalakhtar> so I know a lot about packaging, thanks to pabs in Debian and package liboauth!
<seb128> (just adding a comment, I'm in another meeting as well)
<cjwatson> I'm still ridiculously careful with shared library packaging ;-)
<bilalakhtar> cjwatson: :)
<maco> i just hope someone else does it :P
<zkriesse> My name is Zach zkriesse on IRC, some of you may know me from somewhere around the 'Buntu realm. Currently I'm the lead for the Ubuntu Youth Team which bilalakhtar has just recently joined, and he's offered to come up with some packaging/dev tutorials for the newer/younger users to Ubuntu...he's doing a great job and I'd love to see him around...
<nixternal> well, you can't get any better endorsement than one from seb128 :)
<bilalakhtar> Thanks seb128 a lot!!
<bilalakhtar> yup
<bilalakhtar> zkriesse: thanks for mentioning that
<nixternal> "I am 14 years old. Who said kids kan't kode? (well, I hate KDE)"
<nixternal> oh, not a good thing to say around me!!!
<bilalakhtar> nixternal: haha, a joke!
<nixternal> -100
<nixternal> ;p
<MichealH> nixternal: Bias? :O
<bilalakhtar> I hate KDE for using, but I like its apps
<bilalakhtar> nixternal: ^^
<nixternal> just a bit
<bilalakhtar> I prefer the KDE apps more than the DE
<nixternal> $5 and I will look past that one :D
<ari-tczew> about my comment: It's only my view, not negative comment.
<bilalakhtar> Kate, KOffice, Dolphin, etc
 * nixternal has no more questions
<bilalakhtar> And I like the Qt toolkit a lot
<cjwatson> ari-tczew: understood, just thought it worth exploring
 * MichealH disappears again
<ari-tczew> I'd keep bilalakhtar in work to show perfect packaging level. :)
<cjwatson> ok, anything else before we move to a vote?
<cjwatson> thanks to the cheerleading fraternity ;-)
<bilalakhtar> As I have been in my recent work, I will surely try to make sure each one of my upload is perfect
<bilalakhtar> I have been testing maverick since alpha 2
<ari-tczew> btw. before close this topic, what about coolbhavi's case?
<cjwatson> e-mail majority on coolbhavi was +1 with a review in (some months, I haven't collated the information yet)
<bilalakhtar> I have also (indirectly) fixed a (major) bug  in maverick, lemme check for the bug number
<bilalakhtar> bug #626723
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 626723 in apache2 (Ubuntu Maverick) "init script resets isig flag in an incorrect manner" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/626723
<cjwatson> ah yes, I saw that one, that was a good catch
<bilalakhtar> I found out the fix, poked zul  and he fixed it
<cjwatson> [VOTE] Bilal Akhtar for MOTU
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Bilal Akhtar for MOTU.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<cjwatson> bilalakhtar: welcome!
<bilalakhtar> cjwatson: Thanks
<bilalakhtar> THanks all!
<bilalakhtar> geser, cjwatson , stgraber , nixternal , seb128 : All thanks!
<ari-tczew> congrats bilalakhtar
<bilalakhtar> Thanks ari-tczew !!!
<geser> IIRC bilalakhtar beats wgrant in becoming the youngest MOTU by 2 years :)
<nixternal> congrats and welcome bilalakhtar \o/
<seb128> bilalakhtar, well done
<ari-tczew> bilalakhtar: don't making mistakes :P
<bilalakhtar> Thanks all!
<nixternal> geser: wgrant and nhandler
<cjwatson> if bilalakhtar is anywhere near as productive as wgrant, I'll be happy
 * bilalakhtar will try to be
<nixternal> wgrant is productive? when he isn't complaining about LP :p  he knows I love um!
<cjwatson> "Set new meeting time and rotation", we did that
<ari-tczew> geser: how old was wgrant when he applicated to motu?
<geser> 16
<cjwatson> AnAnt: still here?
<AnAnt> cjwatson: yes
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] PPU Application (sl-modem): Ahmed El-Mahmoudy
<MootBot> New Topic:  PPU Application (sl-modem): Ahmed El-Mahmoudy
<cjwatson> (sorry, my IRC client is not going to be able to manage to produce your name in the correct script)
<AnAnt> no problem
<AnAnt> ok, so as I've mentioned I've been maintaining sl-modem on Debian since about 2 years
<AnAnt> and I sync back to Ubuntu
<geser> AnAnt: no plans for the future? nothing you dislike in Ubuntu?
<nixternal> geser: i think those were covered when AnAnt went for contrib dev and motu :p
<geser> ah, ok then
<nixternal> haha, i was just messing. surely things have changed since then
<cjwatson> Emmet's comment is a pretty good summary here, and generally I have no issues giving the person obviously most involved with a package (in Debian and Ubuntu) the ability to upload it
<nixternal> same here
 * nixternal has no ?'s
<AnAnt> geser: MOTU app has it
<cjwatson> [VOTE] Ahmed El-Mahmoudy for per-package upload (sl-modem)
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Ahmed El-Mahmoudy for per-package upload (sl-modem).
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
 * geser forgot that AnAnt is already a MOTU
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<cjwatson> (if moving to a vote isn't premature)
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<stgraber> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from stgraber. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<cjwatson> excellent
<AnAnt> thanks
<nixternal> that was easy </staple's button push>
<cjwatson> [TOPIC] Kernel package set application: Steve Conklin
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel package set application: Steve Conklin
<cjwatson> I gather the kernel meeting is in here right after this, so they have a reason to wait ;-)
<sconklin> ;-)
<JFo> :)
<bjf> cjohnston: ack
<cjwatson> sconklin: hi
<sconklin> good whatever
<nixternal> yeah, this shouldn't be that hard of an application
<nixternal> I've appointed Steve as the next stable release manager beginning with the Natty Narwhal UDS.
<nixternal> That assignment implies the level of confidence that I have in Steve's abilities as I consider the
<cjwatson> so, I know Steve, maybe somebody else can do most of the interrog^Wquestioning :)
<nixternal> maintenance of our existing kernels to be extremely important.
<nixternal> ^^ from Tim
<nixternal> I think that sums everything up right there
<smb> And being the current one I get bored of checking uploads for Steve, not finding an issue and then just signing things. :-P
<sconklin> aw shucks
<nixternal> I would love to ask "any plans for working outside the kernel?" but I know how demanding that work is, and honestly I would rather have you spending your time there than outside somewhere else. without that kernel us outside would have nothing to do :)
<sconklin> Actually I have the debian packaging of d-rats (initial packaging done) and am going to bug my sponsor for an upload today . . .
<nixternal> lol
<sconklin> userspace amateur radio app
<cjwatson> I shall have to nobble you at some point about the whole business of switching smoothly from a VESA mode to a KMS mode, which, er, isn't so smooth right now ... but perhaps this meeting isn't the right place
<sconklin> http://www.ai4qr.com/debian/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.ai4qr.com/debian/
<nixternal> "I could do a better job of communicating what I'm doing to the community in general. A lot of things I work on are interesting, but I seldom take the time to blog about them or to use other social media to talk about what I'm doing."
<sconklin> for my packaging on that
<nixternal> ^^ that takes getting used to. though I have done exactly that in the past, only to get burned out trying to do it all the time
<nixternal> now I just use social media to bitch and moan :)
<sconklin> and cjwatson, that's a pretty involved discussion
<cjwatson> indeed
<stgraber> just wondering, are there any plan on improving the documentation on the kernel packaging magic ?
<maco> nixternal: hmm you *are* turning into scottk...
<nixternal> ScottK only wishes his grumpiness was as cool as mine
<nixternal> i love talking about him when he isn't around, so much fun!
<stgraber> I had to do it a couple of times (for custom kernel when working with some colleage on lttng) and it's usually hard to find it and not always accurate (especially the abi-check part of it)
 * nixternal has no ?'s
<sconklin> stgraber: it's an ongoing project for the kernel team to improve the wiki pages. But that's an area that still needs a lot of improvement
<sconklin> there have been a lot of wiki improvements for the kernel during the M cycle
<shadeslayer> nixternal: i think hes just lurking around the corner to pounce on you :P
<cjwatson> any further questions?
<tgardner> cjwatson, shall we vote? we're running into the next meeting.
<cjwatson> my thought exactly
<cjwatson> [VOTE] Steve Conklin for ubuntu-kernel-uploaders
 * nixternal none
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Steve Conklin for ubuntu-kernel-uploaders.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<nixternal> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from nixternal. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<tgardner> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from tgardner. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<geser> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from geser. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<cjwatson> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from cjwatson. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<cjwatson> [ENDVOTE]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<cjwatson> and just in time, that's the agenda as clear as we can get it given who's here
<cjwatson> thanks everyone for your continued patience
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:02.
<sconklin> Thank you all
<lag> \o/
<JFo> congrats sconklin!
<geser> hmm, is 3 now quorum for DMB?
<lag> Woooooooooooooooooooo sconklin
<JFo> heh
<apw> congrats sconklin
<tgardner> cjwatson, thanks for chairing
<ogasawara> sconklin: \o/
<kamal> congrats sconklin!
<cking> ditto
<stgraber> +1 (btw)
<smb> Yay for sconklin
<tgardner> bjf, ok, on with the next meeting....
<cjwatson> geser: no?  we had 4
<stgraber> geser: +1
<bjf> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 12:03. The chair is bjf.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<stgraber> cjwatson: tgardner voted, not me ;)
<cjwatson> *blink*
<nixternal> cjwatson: tgardner voted, not stgraber :D
<cjwatson> I didn't see that
<nixternal> that was funny!!!
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<bjf> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<cjwatson> my bad, but fortunately it worked out
<geser> cjwatson: if you replace tgarnder's vote with stgraber's one than it matches
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #
<cjwatson> must make mootbot smarter
<sconklin> tgardner: you troublemaker
<stgraber> cjwatson: we need LP-team support in mootbot ;)
<tgardner> all in ignorance, I assure you
<cjwatson> yeah yeah ;-)
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (lag)
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM Status (lag)
<lag>  * Marvel (mvl-dove)
<lag>    * Nothing new this week
<lag>  * Freescale (fsl-imx51)
<lag>    * ON GOING : B605042: Java segfault on Freescale iMX5.1 Babbage board with Lucid - will try to bisect Lucid 2.6.31 kernel
<lag>  * Texas Instruments (ti-omap)
<lag>    * ON GOING : B591941 Original patch was not complete - Adrian Hunter should release the final patch this week.
<lag>    * ON GOING : B608266 Fix submitted and accepted - still waiting for mobile team to test.
<lag>    * ON GOING : B633227 ES2.0 board is unstable when highmem is enabled - backported a patch from upstream to solve memtester issue
<lag>    * ON GOING : B628029 ES2.0 board does not boot with CONFIG_PM enabled
<lag>    * NEW      : B622935 a patch has been written - author needs to send it upstream
<lag>    * PATCH    : Lots of TI audio patches have now been applied - testing under way
<lag>    * PATCH    : B563650 upstream patch was applied
<lag>    * PATCH    : B477106 Lucid alpha-2 and earlier freeze upon suspend with sd card plugged in with some hardware
<lag>    * PATCH    : B588243 upstream patch was applied
<lag>    * FIXED    : B613855 omap3 beagle XM MMC card always comes up read-only
<lag>    * FIXED    : B605488 scheduling while atomic: mmcqd/46/0x00000002
<lag>    * FIXED    : B589624 omap flavour does not work on beagle XM board
<lag>    * FIXED    : B605832 LG monitor behaving incorrectly when used in conjunction with the Panda board and HDMI
<lag>    * FIXED    : B477106 Maverick alpha-2 and earlier freeze upon suspend with sd card plugged in with some hardware
<lag>    * FIXED    : B592295 omapdss DISPC error: SYNC_LOST_DIGIT
<lag>    * FIXED    : B628107 false alarm - first boot loaded unstable kernel
<lag> ..
<tgardner> lag, is yuor memtest solved with the cache line patch?
<lag> It's not mine, but I don't believe that it is
<tgardner> ok
<tgardner> ..
<lag> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics: (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Release Metrics: (JFo)
<JFo> Release Meeting Bugs (12 bugs, 9 Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Release Milestoned Bugs (71 across all packages (down 8)) ====
<JFo>  * 1 linux kernel bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (down 1)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ec2 bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-mvl-dove bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Release Targeted Bugs (195 across all packages (down 7)) ====
<JFo>  * 7 linux kernel bugs (down 5)
<JFo>  * 1 linux-fsl-imx51 bugs (down 1)
<JFo>  * 1 linux-ec2 bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 3 linux-mvl-dove bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 1 linux-ti-omap bugs (no change)
<JFo>  * 0 linux-meta-ti-omap bug (no change)
<JFo> ==== Milestoned Features ====
<JFo>  * 13 blueprints (Including HWE Blueprints)
<JFo> ==== Bugs with Patches Attached:123 (up 6) ====
<JFo>  * [[https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.has_patch=on | Bugs with Patches]]
<JFo>  * [[http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ogasawara/csv-stats/bugs-with-patches/linux/ | Breakdown by status]]
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bug-handling (JFo)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bug-handling
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bug-handling (JFo)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bug-handling
<JFo> nothing to report. I have been slack in my updates on it
<JFo> will work it the rest of this week
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation (cking)
<bjf> [LINK] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation
<MootBot> New Topic:  Blueprint: kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation (cking)
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/kernel-maverick-bios-test-automation
<cking> Changes this week to fwts:
<cking> * Updated USB boot image tests to use the ncurses based dialog interface
<cking> * natty branch:
<cking>     mtrr: test for SYSCFG[MtrrFixDramModEn], more intelligent mtrr testing
<cking>     klog + acpi tests: check for single MADT
<cking>     pci: check for _CRS PCI host bridge configuration
<cking>     acpidump: annotated dump of ERST, SLIT, SRAT, SBST, ECDT, CPEP, BERT,
<cking>         DSDT, SSDT, RSDT, XSDT
<cking>     lib: hexdump
<cking>     bios: romdump (dump BIOS + option ROMs)
<cking>     framework: add --show-progress-dialog option for dialog tool
<cking> ..
<ogasawara> from a blueprint point of view, the fwts looks finished
<bjf> this is dealing with a maverick blueprint but the status is natty related
<bjf> ogasawara: ack
<cking> oh, yes.
<cking> it's finished for maverick
<JFo> great work cking
<ogasawara> bjf, cking: we can probably drop this from the weekly agenda
<JFo> you inspire me
<bjf> i'll drop this
<cking> good idea
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Maverick (ogasawara)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Status: Maverick (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We've uploaded a new Maverick kernel, 2.6.35-21.31.  This was to resolve linux-libc-dev ti-omap4 version conflicts which prevented any armel uploads.
<ogasawara> Kernel Freeze is this Thurs Sept 16th.  After Kernel Freeze, we transition to our SRU policy.  I plan to upload our final Maverick kernel Sept 17th.  There is little to no room for uploading any kernels beyond the 17th as the archive will freeze in preparation for Mavrick's 10.10 Release Candidate.  Any patches which have any hope of landing the the 10.10 Maverick kernel need to be submitted and garnered the appropriate
<ogasawara> Ack's prior to the 16th.
<ogasawara> We are again nearing being above the trend line for our overall burn down chart.  We need to start closing out all remaining open work items.
<ogasawara> JFo, sconklin, apw, tgardner, jjohansen, smb: It appears you have open work items.  Please review if your work item(s) can be marked as DONE or POSTPONED, else get er done.
<JFo> yep, will do
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone ubuntu-10.10
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#Milestone ubuntu-10.10
<jjohansen> ogasawara: done, just waiting for security to sign off
<smb> ack
 * tgardner likes POSTPONED
<ogasawara> ..
<sconklin> wilco
<bjf> [TOPIC] Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security & bugfix kernels - Karmic/Jaunty/Intrepid/Hardy/Others (smb)
<smb> ||                   || Upd./Sec.     || Proposed      || TiP || Verified    ||
<smb> || Dapper: Kernel    || 2.6.15-55.87  ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || Hardy:  Kernel    || 2.6.24-28.77  || (pending)     ||     ||             ||
<smb> || Jaunty: Kernel    || 2.6.28-19.64  ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || Karmic: Kernel    || 2.6.31-22.63  || 2.6.31-22.64  ||  21 ||  0/ 4       ||
<smb> || =       mvl-dove  || 2.6.31-214.30 || 2.6.31-214.31 ||  21 ||  0/ 4       ||
<smb> || =       fsl-imx51 || 2.6.31-112.28 ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       ec2       || 2.6.31-307.17 || 2.6.31-307.18 ||  21 ||  0/ 4       ||
<smb> || Lucid:  Kernel    || 2.6.32-24.42  || 2.6.32-25.43  ||  13 ||  1/25 (+ 1) ||
<smb> || =       LBM       || 2.6.32-24.17  || 2.6.32-25.22  ||  13 ||  0/ 4       ||
<smb> || =       mvl-dove  || 2.6.32-209.25 || (pending)     ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       fsl-imx51 || 2.6.31-608.19 ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       ti-omap   || 2.6.33-502.10 ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb> || =       ec2       || 2.6.32-308.15 ||               ||     ||             ||
<smb>  * There are very little to no verifications coming in for the Karmic and Lucid
<smb>    proposed kernels. It looks like we need to start our own bug(them)-squad.
<smb>  * Accepting packages into proposed also faces some delays as pitti was on
<smb>    holiday and it feels like there is no real backup there.
<smb>  * Karmic-fsl-imx51 sounds like being dead to me. We should probably make an
<smb>    official announcement that we won't do any security updates on it anymore
<smb>    and see whether anybody cries.
<smb> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Regressions (JFo)
<ogasawara> smb: if karmic-fsl-imx51 is indeed dead, that might automatically knock off one of your work items :)
<smb> ogasawara, indeed. :)
<JFo> 533 Maverick Bugs (up 85)
<JFo> 1036 Lucid Bugs (up 39)
<JFo> Current regression stats (broken down by release):
<JFo> ==== regression-potential ====
<JFo>   * 272 maverick bugs (up 47)
<JFo>   * 170 lucid bugs (up 4: to be converted to regression-release)
<JFo> ==== regression-update ====
<JFo>   * 47 lucid bugs (down 2)
<JFo>   * 7 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 4 jaunty bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 0 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-release ====
<JFo>   * 181 lucid bugs (up 4)
<JFo>   * 37 karmic bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 18 jaunty bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 3 hardy bugs (no change)
<JFo> ==== regression-proposed ====
<JFo>   * 7 lucid bugs (no change)
<JFo>   * 1 karmic bug (no change)
<JFo> We are in the stage now where we are getting almost 90 bugs a week for Maverick
<JFo> ..
<ogasawara> JFo: any updates about regression-potential tag going away?
<JFo> ogasawara, yes, I need to take the regression potential tag out of the apport hok soon
<JFo> hook*
<JFo> will discuss with you after this
<ogasawara> ack
<JFo> other than that, I have an update on it coming up
<JFo> in the triage bit. :)
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Incoming Bugs: Bug day report (JFo)
<JFo> Next week's bug day will focus on the bugs with patches. We will be reviewing them to ensure that the attached is in fact a patch.
<JFo> There will be a bug day by the community team to help us address the regression-potential and regression-proposed bugs per
<JFo> our latest conversation on the subject. I don't have date/time information as yet, but I will provide that as I have it.
<JFo> We will continue to have the Team Bug Day to address the Top 50 list as half days on Friday and Monday.
<JFo> Reviewers, please take a look at your needs-review lists and help us keep the process moving.
<JFo> Please also take ownership of your bugs as you work them so we can get them fixed or otherwise off the list.
<JFo> There are several subsystems owned by all that need to be reviewed for inclusion in our top 50 list.
<JFo> ..
<tgardner> JFo, remember we'll all be in Taipei next Monday
<bjf> JFo: many folks are going to be in taipei does that change your plans
<bjf> ?
<JFo> ah yes
<JFo> yes, it does
<JFo> so I'll postpone the bug day till the week after
 * JFo makes a note
<bjf> [TOPIC] Triage Status (JFo)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Triage Status (JFo)
<JFo> The Kernel Triage Summit was a success. I am thankful to all of you who were able to make yourselves available for the sessions. Thanks to sconklin, diwic, apw and ogasawara for holding the sessions. I'll be blogging about the event and making the transcripts and survey available to those who were unable to attend.
<sconklin> Thanks JFO, I thought we got good participation
<JFo> any input you'd like to make on the Summit?
<JFo> sconklin, I did too
<JFo> I was well pleased
<apw> just that we should touch those people who attended and showed interest again
<JFo> I agree
<apw> to follow up with them, and get their feedback individually
<apw> ..
<JFo> I'll be going though the transcript to see who was involved and get back with them
<ogasawara> and we should follow up that the info dispersed lands in a wiki page somewhere
<JFo> yes
<apw> there was some very good audio info in there we must not lose ..
<JFo> I think that is the most important bit here
<JFo> apw, definitely agree
<JFo> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<JFo> o/
<kstailey> HPET + PAT = Oops (affects many systems) see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/563481/comments/34
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 563481 in linux (Ubuntu) "BUG: Bad page state in process soffice.bin pfn:111e42" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<bjf> JFo: go
<JFo> As we will be in Taipei next week, I'd like to see about doing the bug chat on Thursday or friday if you all agree
<JFo> .
<JFo> since we have not had one for a few weeks
<tgardner> JFo, get it on the calendar
<JFo> will do
<apw> JFo, works for me
<JFo> apw, ack
<smb> should work for me as well
<JFo> ogasawara, sconklin smb that good for you guys?
<JFo> smb, ack
<ogasawara> JFo: should work for me
<JFo> ogasawara, ack
<JFo> ok, I'll schedule it up
<sconklin> should work for me
<JFo> rather Thursday than friday
<JFo> sconklin, ack
<JFo> ..
<smb> JFo, sounds good
<smb> ..
<bjf> anything else?
<kstailey> o/
<bjf> kstailey: go
<kstailey> HPET + PAT = Oops (affects many systems) see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/563481/comments/34
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 563481 in linux (Ubuntu) "BUG: Bad page state in process soffice.bin pfn:111e42" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<kstailey> please help test, thanks
<kstailey> ..
<ogasawara> kstailey: which release?
<kstailey> > Jaunty
<kstailey> in the past PAT was not enabled
<ogasawara> kstailey: I assume there is a patch to fix it?  and if so is it upstream?
 * apw wonders how long jaunty has for support remaining
<tgardner> about a month
<smb> not very long
<kstailey> Karmic and Lucid
<kstailey> ">" as in "greater than
<kstailey> as in when PAT code was thrust upon the world
<apw> yeah finally twigged that about 2s too late, ignore me pls
<kstailey> go search on: ubunut nopat
<kstailey> to see the impact
<kstailey> er, ubuntu
<apw> if there is an upstream patch then could you send the patch on to kernel-team@ list, then it'll get on the list for consideration
<kstailey> try https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/120327/
<kstailey> no warrantees
<bjf> anything else?
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 12:28.
<kamal> thanks bjf
<JFo> thanks bjf
<cking> thanks bjf
<bjf> before everyone leaves!!!!
<bjf> should we have a meeting at all next week?
 * smb waits
<JFo> kstailey, let's discuss what is needed to get this in front of the team in #ubuntu-kernel?
<bjf> i'm thinking not
<smb> +1
<JFo> +1
<tgardner> I'm thinking it'll be in the middle of my night
<ogasawara> +1
<bjf> are those votes for a meeting or against a meeting?
<tgardner> its 0129 in Taipei right now
<JFo> against
<ogasawara> +1 for not having the meeting
<cking> ditto
<smb> against having one
<bjf> ok, no meeting next week
<bjf> that's all, thanks again
<apw> bjf thanks
<JFo> thanks bjf :)
<apw> kstailey, do come join us on #ubuntu-kernel
<zul> heylo
<smoser> \0
<Daviey> o/
<mathiaz> /\~o/\_-+
<hggdh> ~Ã´~
<zul> .--. ..-.. ...
<ttx> o-^-o
<jiboumans> o/
<hallyn> \o
<sommer> o//
<jiboumans> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 13:00. The chair is jiboumans.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<SpamapS> ._-=o/
 * SpamapS is on fire
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jiboumans> i'll be your scribe/chair for the day
<kirkland> howdy
<jiboumans> Daviey to contact upstream eucalyptus, regarding issues that seem to be blocked.
<Daviey> done.. but a new issue arisen
<jiboumans> do tell
<Daviey> Hmm
<Daviey> currently we are seeing a meta data service failure
<Daviey> upstream have been notified by myself qand hggdh
<Daviey> I have a trivial patch that seems to restore functinaility
<Daviey> but really want upstream to dicuss it
<jiboumans> ok, that's bug 637659
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 637659 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Maverick) "metadata service returns 500 error" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/637659
<jiboumans> gotcha
<Daviey> yes!
<jiboumans> alright, let's move on then
<jiboumans> jjohansen to follow up on bug 574910 with the current direction
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 574910 in linux-ec2 (Ubuntu) "High load averages on Lucid while idling" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/574910
<jjohansen> jiboumans: added some comments, I haven't nailed down any specific load averages
<jiboumans> so what are we doing right now?
<jjohansen> jiboumans: basically we need to search down every problem that could be causing high load averages
<jjohansen> there are a few known already
<jjohansen> the write back patches are in proposed.
<jjohansen> The high number of wakeups, is not properly address and last I saw still being examined upstream
<jjohansen> but there is something else going on too, and I haven't been able to replicate
<jiboumans> understood
<jiboumans> moving on: jjohansen and smoser to report on bug 613083 bug 606373 and next meeting
<ubottu> Bug 613083 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/613083 is private
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 606373 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "cloud-init output does not get to console when booted with pv-grub and ramdisk" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/606373
<jiboumans> kernel upgrade in the cloud bugs
<jjohansen> 613083 has progress but we are not sure when the fix will hit
<smoser> Amazon is looking into it.  Last i was aware, there were 2 bugs, one of them fixed on their side.  They indicated that no changes would be necessary in our kernels.
<jiboumans> are tehy both on amazon?
<jjohansen> yes
<smoser> yes
<jjohansen> 606373 I thought I had a working fix, but smoser is reporting it doesn't work for him and we haven't had a chance to compare yet
<jiboumans> ok, so best we can do is track and provide information i suppose
<smoser> bug 606373
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 606373 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "cloud-init output does not get to console when booted with pv-grub and ramdisk" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/606373
<smoser> jiboumans, yes. for 613083, we should have nothing to do.  I have reasonable confidence that it will be fixed.
<jiboumans> sounds like we've done what we can from our side
<jiboumans> moving on
<jiboumans> sommer and mathiaz to sync up regarding puppet server guide
<mathiaz> jiboumans: I haven't had to review the puppet section
<mathiaz> jiboumans: it seems that it landed though
<sommer> it's pretty simple so shouldn't take too long :)
<mathiaz> sommer: ok - I'll give it a look
<sommer> mathiaz: thanks I appreciate it
<jiboumans> [ACTION] mathias to review puppet server guide entry
<MootBot> ACTION received:  mathias to review puppet server guide entry
<jiboumans> RoAkSoAx to email ubuntu server mailing list with update of cluster stack progress
<RoAkSoAx> o/
 * jiboumans waits for roaksoax
<RoAkSoAx> well unfortunately I didn't email because we've been working on getting the packages done and I wanted to provide an update after the work was done given that right after last meeting we received further input on our issues that kinda helped us on see how to resolves our issues
<jiboumans> roaksoax: so what's the current status?
 * jiboumans also notes it's finalfreeze on thursday
<RoAkSoAx> jiboumans: packages should be in shape to hit main before final freeze. ivoks has to do a final upload with the fixes
<RoAkSoAx> final fixes
<RoAkSoAx> hoefully for today
<jiboumans> [ACTION] roaksoax to announce updated cluster packages when they land, ETA before finalfreeze
<MootBot> ACTION received:  roaksoax to announce updated cluster packages when they land, ETA before finalfreeze
<ttx> RoAkSoAx: on the release front it's tracked through bug 635884
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 635884 in redhat-cluster (Ubuntu Maverick) "redhat-cluster fails to build from source in maverick" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/635884
<RoAkSoAx> indeed
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Maverick develoment
<MootBot> New Topic:  Maverick develoment
<jiboumans> all quiet on the western front; most development items are now around process, documentation, etc. most of our time is spent on testing, bug fixing & stabilization
<jiboumans> work item tracker looks all good from here and no real items left on the critical path
<jiboumans> i'll hand over to ttx for the release critical issues
<SpamapS> jiboumans: burnup is fixed btw. ;)
<ttx> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus is almost up to date, smoser sneakily fixed bug 623609 15 minutes before the meeting
<jiboumans> spamaps++
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 623609 in grub2 (Ubuntu Maverick) "grub-pc needs some help in uec instances" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/623609
<smoser> it was fixed monday. silly launchpad just didn't know it.
<ttx> right, is silly LP fixed now ?
<ttx> silly LP did not close the bugs automatically anymore.
<ttx> on Daviey's plate we have:
<Daviey> :(
<ttx> Bug 617053
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 617053 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Maverick) "on upgrade from 1.6.2, euca_upgrade should preserve DISABLE_ISCSI="Y"" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/617053
<ttx> Bug 637659
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 637659 in eucalyptus (Ubuntu Maverick) "metadata service returns 500 error" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/637659
<ttx> I think both are clsoe to get a fix
<Daviey> (both would benefit from upstream reading)
<ttx> 2 new bugs have been assigned to JamesPage, I'll review and sponsor the proposed fixes
<Daviey> both seem to be fixed in bzr.. but waiting for them
<ttx> the redhat-cluster one we already mentioned
<ttx> that leaves Bug 632696, I'll sync with jdstrand later today
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 632696 in libvirt (Ubuntu Maverick) "libvirt won't start a VM with serial or console when apparmor is enabled" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/632696
<ttx> On the Other Critical/High Maverick bugs list, the only one with concern is, I think;
<ttx> Bug 582963
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 582963 in apache2 (Ubuntu Maverick) "SSL pass phrase dialog can't read input" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/582963
<jdstrand> ttx: hallyn mentioned he is tracking that down more since only he can reproduce it atm
<ttx> jdstrand: ok
<hallyn> i think it needs to be 'invalid' again, haven't reproduced it since
 * hallyn wonders if there's an fd leak...
<ttx> that passphrase bug is slightly complex since it's an interaction/plymouth thing, and we broke things last time we tried to fix it
<ttx> zul: could you ask someone more knowledgeable on upstart how we could fix that, and if it's safe to do before release ?
<zul> ttx: ack
<cjwatson> ttx: LP fix is in progress, but in the meantime bugs need to be closed manually
<jdstrand> hallyn: it wouldn't be the first time
<ttx> cjwatson: thx for the update
<ttx> Bug 628055 - i'll reproduce it before throwing it to Daviey again
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 628055 in libvirt (Ubuntu Maverick) "Instances don't start correctly: Security Labeling error running aa_change_profile()" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/628055
<ttx> Once you are done with those, please feel free to pick bugs in the last list
<ttx> we haven't had that many extra bugs fixed over the last week :)
<jiboumans> ttx: are we ready to move on?
<ttx> yes
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hggdh> life is good, with Eucalyptus swallowing all my time ;-)
<hggdh> apart from that -- expect an email to -devel describing the changes we want to make on the regression-* tags
 * SpamapS likes the simplification
<hggdh> we propose to drop regression-potential, since it is pretty much only giving us more work
<hggdh> but details later
 * hggdh is done
 * jiboumans waits 5 more seconds for questions
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (jjohansen)
<jiboumans> looks like we covered the first two already
<jiboumans> but not yet: Bug 621175 - -virtual kernel contains too many modules
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 621175 in linux (Ubuntu Maverick) "-virtual kernel contains too many modules" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/621175
<jjohansen> should be fixed
<ttx> jjohansen: was reopened recently, was it re-fixed ?
<smoser> its reported to be re-fixed.
<jjohansen> ah no, I hadn't noticed
<smoser> a permissions on a maintainance script that would do the module filtering
<jjohansen> I'll check, and if it is still broken refix
<jiboumans> jjohansen: anything else from the kernel front?
<jjohansen> yeah, just a sec
<jjohansen> Bug #634316
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 634316 in linux (Ubuntu) "include amazon EBS performance patch in -virtual kernel" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/634316
<jjohansen> I am planning on recommending this patch unless anyone has issues with it
<jiboumans> ebs performance on ubuntu is something that's been lamented before
<jiboumans> so if we have a fix, that'd be a good thing
<jiboumans> jjohansen: can we get that one on lucid?
<jjohansen> well it does come with risk as it hasn't been well tested by us
<jjohansen> no
<jiboumans> smoser: do we have ebs/fs regression tests for amis?
<jjohansen> its against the pv-ops driver not the full xen
<smoser> we test ebs boot and general worked-ness.
<smoser> not extensive disk test, though
<jiboumans> i'd like to give it a shot jjohansen
<jjohansen> okay, I will submit today
<jiboumans> anything else from kernel?
<jjohansen> not atm
<jiboumans> thanks jjohansen
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<MootBot> New Topic:  Weekly Updates & Questions for the Documentation Team (sommer)
<jiboumans> no updates from sommer?
<sommer> things are good
<sommer> string freeze is in effect, and I feel good about the maverick guide :-)
<jiboumans> sommer: ok, all sections (bar the puppet one) are getting review?
<jiboumans> excellent
<jiboumans> no kim0, so skipping 'Weekly Updates & Questions for the Ubuntu Community Team (kim0)'
<mathiaz> jiboumans: puppet review has actually been done :)
<jiboumans> mathiaz++
<jiboumans> multitasker
<sommer> heh, just had that typed, thanks all for your help and feedback
<SpamapS> jiboumans: maybe we should remove that section from the agenda.. thats about 4 meetings in a row with no attendance by kim0.
<jiboumans> spamaps: point.. action for me to follow up with him
<ttx> multitasker, or kernel questions skipper :P
<jiboumans> [ACTION] jib to check with kim0 if he can attend meetings regularly ro not
<MootBot> ACTION received:  jib to check with kim0 if he can attend meetings regularly ro not
<jiboumans> alright
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Open discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Open discussion
<mathiaz> o/
<mathiaz> one of the remaining item on the hadoop spec is whether the hadoop package currently in maverick should be dropped from the archive
<mathiaz> I've focused on testing the cloudera packages from archive.cloudera.com
<mathiaz> and the hadoop packages currently in maverick are not feature complete
<mathiaz> I'd like to get your input on whether it makes sense to drop the current hadoop packages from maverick?
<jiboumans> as the debian maintainer also not recommended them for production use, i'd be inclined to not have them show up
<ttx> mathiaz: makes sense to drop the universe hadoop packages, but only if the cloudera ones can easily be found
<SpamapS> mathiaz: we should collaborate on a session at UDS for this, I think we need to formalize the conduits, and put a policy in place for this exact sort of thing.
<ttx> I'm not sure making hadoop disappear will help anyone. Removing it to make the others more easily found, yes
<mathiaz> ttx: well - it's complicated to define "easily found"
<ttx> mathiaz: I think we defined it as "apt-cache search finds it"
<jiboumans> mathiaz: place holder package?
<jiboumans> our 'hadoop' instead of debians
<ttx> jiboumans: wasn't that your definition ?
<jiboumans> ttx: yeah, that's my goal
<jiboumans> but right now, the 'hadoop' in maverick is not one the maintainer even recommends you install
<SpamapS> +1 for having something in apt-cache search that shows hadoop
<mathiaz> would a place holder package be accepted given the current release cycle?
<SpamapS> -1 for having it be broken
<mathiaz> it would be a new empty package
<mathiaz> ttx: should I discuss that with the release team
<mathiaz> ttx: ?
<Daviey> pursue FFe :)
<SpamapS> postinst would be  'echo Please see http://xxx for info on running hadoop'
<ttx> mathiaz: yes, we cna discuss that with skaet
<ttx> mathiaz: I'm not sure what's the less worse solution here
<Daviey> "less worse" :)
<ttx> I'm just unconvinced by the "remove package" solution
<mathiaz> ttx: ok - we shoudl discuss that with the release team then
<SpamapS> Daviey: its more better than less worser
<ttx> mathiaz: pick a moment when I'm around
<mathiaz> ttx: remove + placeholder package would work for you?
<ttx> mathiaz: yes
<jiboumans> as would for me
<mathiaz> ok - great
<mathiaz> that's all for me
<jiboumans> any other topics?
<SpamapS> one
<SpamapS> Related to that
<ttx> SpamapS: if that's not too orthogonal with the effort you want to push for next cycle
<SpamapS> I have stopped updating the Cassandra Ubuntu PPA that I created
<SpamapS> There has been zero interest from the community.
 * ttx mentions there has been zero interest from upstream in the Terracotta PPA, fwiw
<SpamapS> i think until we have packages *in the release* that help you find the conduit/ppa/whatever .. the community will continue to google for it, find upstream's instructions, and ignore any packaging options
<SpamapS> Unless we want to attack SEO for "Cassandra Ubuntu" or "Terracotta Ubuntu", then yes, the empty package w/ a pointer to our current status for whatever package we're addressing there, is probably the way to go.
<SpamapS> My only reluctance would be if it has any reverse dependencies
<ttx> SpamapS: one single package pointing to all of them, or one per project ?
<SpamapS> As they'll break horribly.
<SpamapS> ttx: one per project.
<ttx> SpamapS: ok, then mathiaz's empty package can be reused in Natty
<jiboumans> i think this is something we can take off line
<SpamapS> Agreed
<jiboumans> any other topics?
<SpamapS> but suffice to say, the cassandra ubuntu PPA is dead unless somebody picks it up.
<jiboumans> going once...
<ttx> SpamapS: didn't you sign with your blood to maintain it forever ?
<mathiaz> SpamapS: you may wanna delete it then
<jiboumans> [TOPIC] Announce next meeting date and time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Announce next meeting date and time
<jiboumans> Tuesday 2010-09-21 at 1800 UTC - #ubuntu-meeting
<jiboumans> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 13:49.
<SpamapS> mathiaz: I'll email the cassandra users list before doing that.
<ttx> SpamapS: I'd keep it and advertise it with whatever empty-package solution we find for natty
<ttx> maybe it will gain momentum...
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-09-15
 * phillw waves to pedro3005
<pedro3005> hello phillw
<nhandler> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 18:35. The chair is nhandler.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * pleia2 waves
<nhandler> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam/Meetings
<nhandler> duanedesign: You around?
 * Silver_Fox_ waves at pleia2 
<Silver_Fox_> Why have we started so late ?
<starcraftman> hey there Silver_Fox_  :)
<collinp> Silver_Fox_: nhandler forgot.
<collinp> I did too.
<Silver_Fox_> I came in just to +1 phillw  for membership
<starcraftman> I blame the clocks! I say they are all wrong and we just spin them backwards.
 * Silver_Fox_ grumbles something about silly o'clock in the morning ;)
<nhandler> Alright, does anyone else have any agenda items?
<starcraftman> Uh, not really, I just got a new paddy recently. Nothing too important.
<collinp> And I'm still trying to find time to revive the development focus group.
<starcraftman> Oh and I submit an official request that all other team members playing starcraft2 message me so I can add them.
<collinp> Mmh. nhandler, may I say something?
<nhandler> Hmm...Looks like we have a lot of prospective members nominated this month
<starcraftman> I guess that's not really that official.
<nhandler> collinp: Go ahead
<collinp> I'll be doing membership for the development team personally, by email. If you send me an email requesting membership, I'll review your credentials and either grant you said membership or assist you in getting the credentials.
<collinp> This is going to the mailing list as well.
<collinp> But I think it would be prudent to mention it here as well.
<collinp> Technical term: Development -focus group-.
<nhandler> collinp: Out of curiosity, why not make the LP team moderated and let people apply that way (and set yourself as the admin)
<collinp> nhandler: Perhaps. I can't remember if I have admin access to the LP team.
<collinp> Let me just check that.
<nhandler> collinp: If not, poke me later and I can sort it out
<komputes> I would like to announce that I will be switching to Maverick soon and welcome any bugs which affect a majority of uses for my TopBugs wiki page. Should anyone have bugs they would like to see increased in importance, please let me know in a PM or by email.
<ibuclaw> o/
<komputes> err... affect a majority of users
<nhandler> Any other announcements?
<Silver_Fox_> I scared of my latest padawan somehow
<Silver_Fox_> ;)
<collinp> heh.
<collinp> Just as a general census, what team members are actually here?
<nhandler> o/
<Silver_Fox_> o/
<pleia2> o/
<komputes> o/
<starcraftman> I can't be sure I actually exist anywhere.
<komputes> lol
<starcraftman> Strictly metaphically speaking.
<Silver_Fox_> Have a cookie and think about it starcraftman
<collinp> Ok, so that's pretty good.
<zkriesse> Oops
<collinp> Add zkriesse to that.
<zkriesse> thought we were having it in bt
<zkriesse> lol
<starcraftman> Silver_Fox_: Excellent suggestion. I love cookies.
<nhandler> [TOPIC] New Members
<MootBot> New Topic:  New Members
<nhandler> phillw: You are up first. Can you say a few words about yourself and your contributions?
<Silver_Fox_> It's quarter to 1 here nhandler ,  i expect he has gone to bed
<nhandler> Silver_Fox_: He was around a minute ago, so I thought I'd ask
<zkriesse> nhandler: can we have a vote anyway on phillw ?
<phillw> hi, well, I'm me, my contributions to the begginers team is as per my logs on IRC and the forum area
<paultag> Hey, am I late?
<collinp> And paultag.
<nhandler> paultag: Just in time. phillw is up now
<zkriesse> hey ptag
<paultag> Hell yes!
<phillw> hi mentor, yes your are !!!#
<paultag> Sorry all! Sorry!
<starcraftman> paultag: not if you program a program to reset all our computers times :).
<zkriesse> dont worry paultag I was late too
<collinp> Ok, so we have a good number of team members.
<phillw> my full contribution details and testimonials are on wiki page
 * nhandler -> dinner
<zkriesse> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw
 * paultag -> chair
<paultag> yeah phillw, can you tell us a bit about yourself?
<collinp> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw
<paultag> phillw, its usually tradition to give a blurb
<Silver_Fox_> paultag:  fail
<zkriesse> he just did paultag
<Silver_Fox_> phillw did that already
<paultag> Oh shucks
<paultag> OK, rocken
<zkriesse> lol
<collinp> I guess I can handle the voting and junk.
<paultag> Questions for phil, I open the floor
<paultag> phill *
 * zkriesse has none
<zkriesse> I've worked with Phill long enough..he deserves it
<starcraftman> I got a question!
<duaneipho> lo all
<paultag> starcraftman, go
<starcraftman> Does thou play Starcraft 2?
<phillw> In a previous job, I was 2nd level support in an UNIX area, coming back what is  ubuntu is a wonderful thing for me and I am a strong propentent of teaching and helping
<pleia2> phillw did a great class for -classroom on lamp (I'd love to see more!)
<paultag> Awesome
<paultag> Well I see no reason to not vote
<paultag> [vote] phillw for UBT membership
<MootBot> paultag, Only the meeting chair can do that
<collinp> [VOTE] phillw for membership
<MootBot> collinp, Only the meeting chair can do that
<zkriesse> And phillw is also kind enough to lend a hand to the #ubuntu-youth team when he has the time AND he's hosting our forum...so, KUDOS to phillw
<collinp> Oh.
<collinp> nhandler: Poke.
<paultag> collinp, he's gone
<collinp> This could be a problem.
<paultag> let me hijack
<collinp> Ok, lets just do it this way.
<paultag> #endmeeting
<duaneipho> +1
<paultag> Grrr
<paultag> OK
<paultag> +1
<pleia2> +1
<collinp> +1 agreed, +0 neutral, -1 Disagree.
<zkriesse> +1
<collinp> +1
<starcraftman> +1 (he better turn out to have a Starcraft account).
<collinp> ...ok, bigger issue: How are we going to end the meeting?
<paultag> It's OK collinp. We'll let nhandler know
<paultag> OK, any more UBT members who care to vote?
<paultag> please PM me with votes. I'll be cool about it
<paultag> ( if you want them private )
<collinp> What's our vote stats?
<pedro3005> +1
<paultag> +7
<komputes> +1
<zkriesse> +8 now
<collinp> 9 +1's.
<paultag> 8(+1), 0(+0), 0(-1)
<collinp> [AGREED] phillw for membership
<Silver_Fox_> +11
<collinp> Ok.
<paultag> Congrats phillw :D
<Silver_Fox_> Win
<collinp> How does this not work.
<zkriesse> Welcome to the team (finally) phillw !
<collinp> [AGREED]
<komputes> phillw: Congrats Phil, welcome to the team :)
<zkriesse> [endvote]
<phillw> thanks guys, I can only ever promise any team that I will do my best
<collinp> And yes, welcome to the team phillw.
<zkriesse> #endvote
<collinp> zkriesse: We weren't running a bot vote.
<paultag> Next up: shredder12
<zkriesse> collinp: Ah...
<collinp> He's not here.
<paultag> He's not here. We're going to skip him
<paultag> can someone remind him that he missed a meeting?
<zkriesse> I shall
<collinp> I'll track him down.
<paultag> km0r3 is after him
<collinp> Or, zkriesse can,
<paultag> also not here
<collinp> Also isn't here.
<paultag> and malev
<collinp> Lather, rinse, repeat.
<zkriesse> Lol
<paultag> km0r3 is in the channel
<paultag> same with malev
 * starcraftman wonders if all the absentees are playing starcraft...
<komputes> collinp: infinite loop
<paultag> I pinged them both. We're almost done with our stuff, so we'll wait for a few
<collinp> How long has shredder been on the list?
<zkriesse> starcraftman: I'm sure we all love it...just not as much as you
<paultag> I'm unsure.
<collinp> I think it's been a while.
<paultag> duaneipho, how long has shredder been up for membership?
<zkriesse> He's been on there a while
<collinp> I'll track him down and see what's going on, if you wish.
<paultag> collinp, that would be great, thanks
<duaneipho> I put them on the agenda las month
<zkriesse> you got it collinp ?
<paultag> duaneipho, sorry, I meant duanedesign
<collinp> Alright, I'll get his email address and send him one.
<duaneipho> it's me
<paultag> Oh ipho
<paultag> dur :)
<duaneipho> other co
<paultag> Yup
<collinp> So, according to the fridge calendar we have 4 minutes left in our allocated space.
<paultag> Righto
<paultag> We'll give them each their time
<zkriesse> We can always move to #ubuntu-beginners
 * phillw will catch up with you all on #ubuntu-beginners-team. I've got to go and help my trainee bar man.
<collinp> Does it matter if there's no other teams after us?
<paultag> Not really, just bad practice to do
<paultag> I've gone over before
<collinp> hmm.
<duaneipho> I wanted to see about getting someone to administrate the mentor program. I believe it was on the agenda.
<paultag> We at least need to wait for nhandler to officially close it
<collinp> Aye.
<paultag> Was this mentioned before?
<collinp>  duanedesign - Improving Mentor Program
<paultag> OK, cool.
<paultag> duaneipho, you have the floor :)
<starcraftman> bye phillw, as a recently inducted member it's imperative you get SC2, asap :).
<komputes> starcraftman: hey
<duaneipho> have someone make sure the seeking mentor list is taken care of each month
<collinp> I could do that.
<paultag> collinp, you already lead -dev
<collinp> paultag: True that.
<duaneipho> as well as have mentors provide monthly status reports
<collinp> I'm sending an email to the ML regarding -dev, btw.
<paultag> I'd like someone new, if you don't mind
<paultag> collinp, great
<collinp> Hmm.
<collinp> Maybe phillw?
<Silver_Fox_> I think I need another person to mentor again....
 * zkriesse raises hand
<paultag> collinp, phillw is crunched for time and such
<Silver_Fox_> ;)
<collinp> Ah, yes.
<paultag> Let's call for people on the ML
<duaneipho> and have the mentor administrator be responsible fir making surre those are done each month
<Silver_Fox_> +1 ML
<paultag> just because we're not packed in here
<collinp> Aye, +1 on the ML.
<zkriesse> +1 ml
<duaneipho> should only take 2 hrs or so a month
<duaneipho> we do have a couple people on the seeking mentor list that need someone now
<paultag> roger
<paultag> Who would like to email calling for applications?
<duaneipho> Rajbe. spelled wrong I am sure
<zkriesse> I can if you want
<paultag> zkriesse, OK. that would be great
<duaneipho> I will, or mr zack
<collinp> Or me.
<paultag> zkriesse, Make a note applications go to the ubuntu beginners council ml
<zkriesse> applications for a mentor correct?
<paultag> zkriesse, no, mentor administrator, to ensure people get hooked up
<zkriesse> Ah
<zkriesse> Yeah I can write that up right now
<paultag> thanks zkriesse
<zkriesse> paultag: what's the council ml
<zkriesse> sure
<nhandler> zkriesse: ubuntu-beginners-council@lists.ubuntu.com
<paultag> nhandler, arn't you eating?
<nhandler> zkriesse: Be sure to poke a council member once sent if it gets stuck in moderation
<nhandler> paultag: Just got back ;)
<duaneipho> ID also like to hear what people think about the monthly updates by mentors
<paultag> Roger doger
<collinp> nhandler: Wow, fast.
<zkriesse> nhandler: what'd you do? Inhale the food?
<duaneipho> but were long on time so we can do it in -team
<nhandler> :)
<collinp> zkriesse: I do that on a regular basis. Not healthy.
<zkriesse> collinp: same here
<collinp> There's no teams after us wanting to beat us out, so I don't see time as being an issue.
<duaneipho> I'll get with my 3 prospects and see If they can make next meeting for voting
<collinp> I'm not sure as to how strictly enforced the time limit is on this channel, but it's doubtful that we're going to get kicked out.
<zkriesse> I think pleia2 could answer that question best
<nhandler> We are fine right now. Nobody is after us
<duaneipho> shredder Is in India so he might have difficulty making a meeting
<collinp> (yet)
<zkriesse> Ok so duaneipho what do you want on the application for mentorship lead?
<zkriesse> Or really, BT council members, what do you expect
<duaneipho> I would like for them to ideally be responsible for the two things mentioned
<zkriesse> Ok
<duaneipho> it should only take 2-3 hours a month
<zkriesse> But to apply for the "position" what do you want them to put on the email..wiki page of course, but what else? Experience in the team? Why they want/feel they should be in that position?
<duaneipho> make sure prospects are hooked up and work with the council on setting up so
<duaneipho> some kind of monthly update mentors submit about their prospects
<zkriesse> Yes I get that...
<duaneipho> Zack sounds good. ideallly it should be so
<collinp> Just a question. For future reference, can meeting times be changed an hour or two back or forwards?
<nhandler> zkriesse: Yep. LP link as well. And if people feel someone would be a good candidate, please do not hesitate to tell the council that
<zkriesse> Ok I'll draft one up real quick
<duaneipho> thanks Zack
<nhandler> collinp: We probably are overdue for reconsidering meeting times/dates. I'll try to setup a doodle poll soon
<zkriesse> nhandler: Roger..shall I draft a quick one and then send it to you for a quic review?
<duaneipho> sorry if I mispell your name. no tab co
<zkriesse> duaneipho: Not a problem
<collinp> nhandler: If shredder is in India, it's unlikely that he will be able to make any of our normal meeting times unless he stays up late or wakes up early, not certain as to which.
<duaneipho> mplete
<zkriesse> and glad to do it duaneipho
<nhandler> collinp: We have accepted members without them attending the meetings in the past
<nhandler> zkriesse: If you want (not necessary)
<duaneipho> you rock Zack
<collinp> What process is that done with?
<collinp> Because I would like for him to be aware of this in the email that I am composing to him,
<zkriesse> duaneipho: Why thank you good sir
<nhandler> collinp: It has been for people who were fairly well known among the team members so that they felt comfortable voting without the person being there
<nhandler> We have also done a couple via ML iirc
<duaneipho> I will ALS o talk with malev and km0r3 , also my prospects. see what their schedule is for attending next meeting
<collinp> Hmm. Do you think that we could do such a vote at this time on him?
<nhandler> What does everyone else think? Are you guys all familiar enough with him?
<zkriesse> whith shredder12?
<collinp> I feel that I am fairly familiar with him.
<zkriesse> Yeah I know him ok
<duaneipho> not a bad idea but I think we have lost some people
<zkriesse> duaneipho: What is this "position" called. "Mentorship Admin" ?
<zkriesse> or something to that affect?
<starcraftman> I'm still here just quiet. Nothing really to add, unless I maybe volunteer a paddy for this mentorship thing. :)
<collinp> paultag, pleia2, kermiac, komputes, Silver_Fox_.
<starcraftman> zkriesse: Commander of the Paddy Brigade.
<duaneipho> yeah sounds good unless anyone has a better name
<paultag> sounds good
<zkriesse> lol starcraftman
<starcraftman> Mines pls!
<zkriesse> starcraftman: Hahaha
<nhandler> The title realistically isn't that important. The work that they do is what matters
<duaneipho> Starcraft haha
<zkriesse> Ok Mentorship Admin it is
<collinp> ibuclaw.
<starcraftman> nhandler: Oh come on!!!! It's all bout the title, why do ya think higher ya go in company longer it gets...
<nigelb> o/ emeritus member
<collinp> Ooh, nigelb!
 * komputes needs a pyMentor
<duaneipho> Nigel OG in the house
<Silver_Fox_> I will be back later. It is very early. Goodbye.
<collinp> To the highlighted people, what do you think about holding a vote on shredder without him actually being here?
<zkriesse> collinp: +1 on it from me
<paultag> hey nigelb
<kermiac> sorry, I haven't really had much to do with shredder
<collinp> I have his wiki page.
<nhandler> Do we have anyone else +1 on holding a vote right now?
<collinp> +1 from me.
<starcraftman> collinp: Don't think I know him enough, in such a case as this with tzs I'd say ml vote to get his participation + most folks knowing him.
<nhandler> collinp: It was your idea ;)
<collinp> nhandler: Heh.
<maco> nhandler: you're voting on voting?
<duaneipho> +1
<starcraftman> maco: we are meta. :)
<collinp> Two +1s.
<nhandler> maco: I guess we are ;)
<paultag> +0
<collinp> So, I think it would be better if we went with starcraftman's suggestion of a ML vote.
 * zkriesse will be right back
<zkriesse> +1 ML
<nhandler> collinp: Agreed. Want to send an email?
<collinp> There's not really enough people here to do a full team vote.
<collinp> nhandler: Sure.
<duaneipho> Collin sounds good
<nhandler> [ACTION] collinp to email ML to vote on shredder
<MootBot> ACTION received:  collinp to email ML to vote on shredder
<duaneipho> ok so we are done ?
<nhandler> Anything else to discuss?
<collinp> I think that's it.
<starcraftman> Nothing from me, ran out of starcraft things :).
<paultag> I'm good
<nhandler> Then last order of business is to decide who is doing the minutes/team report
 * paultag has to run :(
<nhandler> Any volunteers? I've ended up having to do the team report at the last minute the last few times, and I would prefer not to be the one to do it again
<paultag> I nominate collinp
<collinp> I'll get it done.
<nhandler> You rock collinp
<nhandler> Let me know if you have any problems/questions
<collinp> Haven't been as active as I should be in the team, so this is my repentance :).
<nhandler> [ACTION] collinp to do minutes/team report
<MootBot> ACTION received:  collinp to do minutes/team report
<duaneipho> I can help on those things when I get home
<nhandler> Great meeting everyone
<nhandler> Thanks duaneipho
<duaneipho> also update wiki with next meeting date
<collinp> Aye, good meeting.
<nhandler> +1 duaneipho
<nhandler> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:23.
<kermiac> can we also please update the time conversion link in the main channel? It still points to July
<duanedesign> /5/24
<doko> hiya
<barry> hi all
<robbiew> hi
<ev> hi
<mvo> hello
<cjwatson> afternoon
<robbiew> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is robbiew.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<robbiew> [TOPIC] Lightning Round
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lightning Round
<robbiew> doko?
<doko> updates for gcc-4.4/-4.5 linaro releases
<doko> ARM build fixes (90 more source packages build)
<doko> file rc reports for build failures
<doko> fix some
<doko> python3 updates
<doko> ... waiting for FFe
<doko> done
<robbiew> barry?
<barry> lots of administrivia (email, meetings, discussions, etc); udd stakeholders planning; gtimelog fixes, FFe
<doko> ohh, and mentoring the arm cross toolchain into maverick
<barry> done
<robbiew> ev?
<ev> Finally got ubiquity 2.3.18 out the door, thanks to a freeze review from Riddell.  Lots and lots of bug fixes there.  Currently fixing remaining bugs, specifically the installer not downloading langpacks.
<ev> Blocked: really need a UI release team freeze review on bug 636945
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 636945 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "Freeze exception for ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu 24" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/636945
<ev> done
<robbiew> mvo?
<mvo> ev: is the langpack stuff using aptdaemon? there might be a bug there, I was investigating that in the context of oem
<mvo> apt: a bunch of merges, fixes, upload fix for apt-ftparchive to lucid-proposed (thanks to colin for his patch); aptdaemon: async fixes, protect sources.list passwords; python-apt: properly support "single-sources.list.file-only" updates; software-center: lots of work on buy-something, fixes and community branch merges (the team rocks!); screenshots.ubuntu.com: work with chris haas and add "screenshot-with-version/$pkgname/$version urls patch
<mvo>  that will allow us to pick the best version of a screenshot for the given request (yeah!)
<mvo> (done)
<ev> mvo: nope
<ev> this appears to be a localechooser interaction bug
<mvo> ev: ok, so nothing releated to python-apt/apt misbehaving?
<cjwatson> I've been pretty impressed at the amount of team activity there seems to be on software-center given its relative youth
<ev> well that and a slight bit of a fall out from the install/plugininstall split
<ev> mvo: correct
<mvo> cjwatson: yeah, its pretty amazing how much outside contributions we get
<mvo> hard to review/merge/feedback quickly enough :)
<robbiew> cjwatson?
<cjwatson> done: moved lvm2 to /dev/mapper symlinks; sorted out oem-config bugs on USB, with mvo; updated gparted to 0.6.2; reviewed and merged arm subarch improvements from NCommander; much messing around with UEFI test laptop, score so far is one kernel bug and at least one firmware bug; objectives!
<cjwatson> todo: sort out /lib/init/rw/sendsigs.omit.d chaos (carried over); ntfs-3g update; get grub/Windows interop improvements tested and merged
<cjwatson> --
<robbiew> Keybuk?
<Keybuk> - done: battling with ureadahead, no matter what I do, it goes slower, so moving on and will come back to this later
<Keybuk> - ongoing: upstart2 work
<Keybuk> - todo: more immediate-term fix for the ureadahead memory issue
<Keybuk> --
<doko> no systemd? :-/
 * cjwatson takes away doko's trolling stick
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> psurbhi: ?
<robbiew> hmm...will circle back
<robbiew> as for me: working through job offer, nagging folks for objectives, and swimming in 10.10 bugs
<mvo> objectives!
<robbiew> those of you who have not submitted.....know who you are
<robbiew> doko: I owe you a response on your email ;)
<doko> robbiew: sent to you, does this count as "submitted"?
 * barry utters a sigh of relief
 * mvo too
<robbiew> almost EVeryone has there's in ;)
<robbiew> theirs
<cjwatson> subtle
<barry> :)
<doko> lol
<ev> hi
<Keybuk> cjwatson: never a word I'd use to describe robbie ;-)
<robbiew> [TOPIC] 10.10 bugs and ffes
<MootBot> New Topic:  10.10 bugs and ffes
<doko> bug #632727
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 632727 in llvm-gcc-4.2 (Ubuntu Maverick) "FFe: include llvm 2.8 and corresponding package in maverick" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/632727
<Keybuk> bug #600359
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 600359 in ureadahead (Ubuntu Maverick) "ureadahead generating oom messages during boot." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/600359
<doko> bug #638537
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 638537 in python3-defaults (Ubuntu) "FFe: python3 related updates for maverick" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/638537
<ev> bug 630924 (as mentioned)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 630924 in Ubuntu Translations "Language packs are not downloaded during installation" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/630924
<cjwatson> bug 618281
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 618281 in ntfs-3g (Ubuntu Maverick) "FFE: NTFS-3G: A new upstream version is available: 2010.8.8" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/618281
<doko> I hope that makes robbiew swimming again ;)
<cjwatson> bug 441941 (mentioned earlier)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 441941 in grub2 (Ubuntu Maverick) "grub fails after running Windows" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/441941
<cjwatson> bug 553745, needs help
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 553745 in plymouth (Ubuntu Maverick) "plymouthd crashed with SIGSEGV in ply_event_loop_process_pending_events()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553745
<robbiew> well...no surprises for me there...that's good
<robbiew> heh
<robbiew> [TOPIC] AOB?
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB?
<cjwatson> good news: I got the damned UEFI laptop to boot!
<cjwatson> bad news: ... not in a way that's usable for maverick
<robbiew> lol \o/
<robbiew> heh
<mvo> good news: http://screenshots.ubuntu.com/screenshot-with-version/banshee/2.0 will return something different than http://screenshots.ubuntu.com/screenshot-with-version/banshee/1.0
<robbiew> heh
<cjwatson> mvo: is the IS side of that all done now?
<mvo> cjwatson: the IS side is just a proxy, its all hosted by screenshots.debian.net, chris haas is super nice to us
<ev> good news: we now have http://start.ubuntu.com/connectivity-check.html
<mvo> cjwatson: but if the wold comes to and end I would be able to quickly setup a instance of the service if needed
<mvo> ev: lorem ipsum? not the free software manifesto?
<robbiew> ev: what is that?
<Keybuk> mvo: the text ev wanted there was better
<ev> I had another suggestion, but IS doesn't share the same sense of humor
<mvo> can you link it?
<ev> robbiew: hash it and you know you're not trapped in a captive portal
<mvo> for us here?
<robbiew> ev: ah
<robbiew> psurbhi: any updates this week?
<psurbhi> 1) worked on bug:617725  and bug:628400. Also browsed through the general mdadm bugs.
<psurbhi> 2) investigated how upstart works and the mounting of non root filesystems
<psurbhi> 3) investigating the following: a) the mounting of non root filesystems - what happens when they take longer time, who waits for them and when, what order? b) what is the role of old superblocks, which many users are complaining about on launchpad? why is this being not wiped out. (Plan to continue doing this in the remaining of this week)
<psurbhi> robbiew, i did not realize the winter clock change
<ev> mvo: https://rt.admin.canonical.com/Ticket/Display.html?id=41364
<psurbhi> i came one hour before
<psurbhi> and thought meeting was cancelled
<robbiew> psurbhi: heh..no worries and thanks
<psurbhi> :) thanks!
<cjwatson> I didn't realise anyone had starting shifting yet
<cjwatson> UK doesn't move for a while, I think
<barry> right, i think the us is in october?
<psurbhi> oh! i expected it one hour ago
<Keybuk> Bad News: my desktop is beyond repair
<psurbhi> sorry, about it!
<Keybuk> Good News: therefore I get a new one! :p
<barry> scratch that, november 7
<ev> Keybuk: should we just assume you're going mortgage your house to buy a Mac Pro?
<robbiew> heh...I thought he would just cluster his Dell Minis
<Keybuk> ev: it'll probably be another Alienware box
<ev> but that will clash horribly with all of your other electronics!
<robbiew> okay....
<robbiew> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:34.
<robbiew> thanks all
<robbiew> heh
<barry> thanks!
<mvo> thanks
<ev> thanks!
<psurbhi> thanks!
<doko> bye
<Eduard_gotwig> Hello
<Eduard_gotwig> IÂ´m here to ask if I could be a member of the ubuntu members group
<jpds> !member | Eduard_gotwig
<ubottu> Eduard_gotwig: Want to become an Ubuntu member? Look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<Eduard_gotwig> "become" IÂ´m here under windows sry (that lags)
<Eduard_gotwig> I already did all, the question from me is "what regional board?"
<Eduard_gotwig> that from germany, I live there
<vish> Eduard_gotwig: you can choose any board , it depends on when you are available to attend the meeting
<Eduard_gotwig> vish: arewhere are meetings in germany available :/ ?
<Eduard_gotwig> "where"
<jpds> Eduard_gotwig: Err, they're done here on IRC.
<jpds> Eduard_gotwig: i.e., https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<Eduard_gotwig> oh and when is a ubuntu meeting here?
<jpds> Eduard_gotwig: The page says: "The next meeting is scheduled for October 5th 2010, 20:00 UTC and will be held in #ubuntu-meeting on irc.freenode.net."
<Eduard_gotwig> oh thanks, that was all what i needed !
<blackmatter> meeting over?
<Ursinha> bug 271411
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 271411 in OOPS Tools "Look at Launchpad configuration files to ensure that all OOPSes are covered" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/271411
<highvoltage> thanks to alkisg we will actually have an edubuntu meeting! (I completely forgot)
<alkisg> Hi all
<highvoltage> quick update from me... our slideshow is finalised, artwork is finalized, all is uploaded for maverick
<highvoltage> stgraber implemented the ltsp/netbook installer options which we thought that we'd have to leave out!
<highvoltage> things are looking pretty good
<highvoltage> mgariepy also wrote documentation on the Edubutnu Menueditor
<highvoltage> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Documentation/Edubuntu-menueditor
<highvoltage> some people had some questions about it recently so we thought that some docs would be useful :)
<highvoltage> that's it from me!
<highvoltage> alkisg: is it just you and me today?
<alkisg> Heh, could be!
<alkisg> I'd like to ask stgraber about adding geogebra to the edubuntu-stable ppa, if he's around...
<highvoltage> I guess I could make him around...
<alkisg> Well it's not something important, it can wait...
<stgraber> alkisg: sure, go ahead
<stgraber> just re-upload and append ~ppa1~lucid1 to the version number
<alkisg> stgraber: that's what I wanted to ask, if I could avoid the changelog part and just copy from the ppa... :)
<alkisg> Too many involved packages to update all of them :-/
<alkisg> I don't feel like going through all of them just for dummy changelogs
<alkisg> (it works fine - it's just a policy question...)
<stgraber> nope, you have to re-upload, though it's super easy to do ...: apt-get source x && cd x*/ && dch -i && debuild -S -sa && cd .. && dput edubuntu-stable x*.changes
<alkisg> It's not a single package, I'd have to go through all of those
<alkisg> I've done that (copy from maverick) to the greek schools ppa, worked fine
<stgraber> nope, you'll need a rebuild of these just to make sure they are 100% clean
<highvoltage> I don't think it's as much a question of whether it would work, but more of doing it properly
<alkisg> OK
<highvoltage> alkisg: how many packages are there anyway?
<alkisg> Right, it's just that I'd like to avoid going through all that
<alkisg> 8
<highvoltage> 8!
<highvoltage> ok :)
<highvoltage> stgraber did that for 15 packages just this morning :)
<alkisg> Not sure about the source packages, they may be less
<alkisg> OK, question answered, thanks, let's move on... :)
<stgraber> highvoltage: and these were crappy perl packages, I even crashed a launchpad builder because of them ;)
<highvoltage> alkisg: if you'd want I'll even do them for you?
<alkisg> highvoltage: sure, please :)
<alkisg> It's just that I have too little time because of my phd and they're already there for me, so ^H^H^H /me just hates beurocracy :D
<highvoltage> alkisg: heh, well I guess your phd is more important than me lying on a couch in the evening and watching star trek episodes :)
<alkisg> Thanks man, and sorry for not having the time
<highvoltage> alkisg: no problem
<alkisg> highvoltage: the first 8 there, plus jas-plotter, ==9 in total: https://launchpad.net/~ts.sch.gr/+archive/ppa/+packages?field.name_filter=&field.status_filter=published&field.series_filter=lucid
<alkisg> (maybe those are just 3 source packages, not sure...)
<Lns> :)
<highvoltage> alkisg: which ppa is that in?
<alkisg> That's the greek schools ppa, a ppa all greek schools use...
<alkisg> I copied them from maverick
<highvoltage> mgariepy: you missed the part where we talked about menu editor, but you're welcome to give an update again anyway :)
<alkisg> (no source changes at all)
<mgariepy> i fixed 2 bug that i had discovered in the past few weeks, lp: 619226 and lp: 634638
<mgariepy> and i wrote some documentation https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Documentation/Edubuntu-menueditor
<highvoltage> bug 619226 and bug 634638
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 619226 in Edubuntu Menu Editor "unable to apply modification to menu System Tools" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/619226
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 634638 in Edubuntu Menu Editor "space shouldn't be allowed when importing menus." [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/634638
<mgariepy> also added link in help menu of profile manager and menueditor
<mgariepy> the updated package should be avalaible soon
<mgariepy> waiting for sgraber to upload .
<mgariepy> and that's about it.
<highvoltage> well, that's great :)
<highvoltage> and now it's uploaded too...
<highvoltage> it's kind of weird being close to stgraber and mgariepy, I get parts of a meeting in audio too now :)
<highvoltage> anything else?
<alkisg> Great work guys
<highvoltage> cool, have a good week everyone! release is edging ever closer so next week we should probably look at documnentation, taking the next steps in website improvements, etc
<highvoltage> oh, and release notes / release announcements / etc :)
<stgraber> alkisg: just uploaded geogebra and all the required dependencies
<alkisg> Thanks :)
<alkisg> stgraber: 3 more packages are needed: freehep-graphicsio-tests - 2.1.1+dfsg1-3               freehep-graphicsio-java - 2.1.1-1               jas-plotter - 2.2.6+dfsg1-1
<alkisg> (so some of those failed to build)
<highvoltage> alkisg: I speak under correction but I think they're still being built :)
<alkisg> highvoltage: nah, they failed because of missing dependencies...
<highvoltage> ah
<stgraber> alkisg: I was planning on waiting for LP to report the build-deps
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-09-16
<wers> hello
<thorwil> word
<JanCBorchardt> +1
<JanCBorchardt> vish is lurking as well :)
<wers> where's our leader?
<wers> I'd like to discuss something organizational today
<thorwil> that might be just vish's being present everywhere, though
<wers> vish is omnipresent
<JanCBorchardt> do I remember correctly aday saying that he can not attend today?
<wers> I dunno..
<JanCBorchardt> so â¦ do we just start then or can someone poke mpt?
 * vish not here.. on the way out :)
<thorwil> wers: what's the organizational something?
<wers> thorwil, just thought that we can review ayatana ux's goals
<wers> what are we here for and are we successful so far?
<wers> look at the description here https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-ux
<wers> "This team will coordinate activities like persona generation, distributed user testing, heuristic evaluations, publishing and promoting design guidelines, and collection of ideas from Brainstorm, forums and elsewhere."
<wers> do we do any of those?
<thorwil> heh, no
<JanCBorchardt> wers, I briefly thought about that too when I joined ;)
<wers> should we review our goals?
<godbyk> have we done much of anything?
<wers> if not, what should we do?
<wers> I hope, mpt was here
<JanCBorchardt> well about the ideas from Brainstorm and forums thing: Brainstorm is actually a big pile of what users want, we could catalyze that.
<JanCBorchardt> like homework for everyone: Find 2 Brainstorm ideas that ideally bug yourself and would improve user experience greatly. Then we can put them together and decide on one or two. Similar to the paper cut project except it may not be an easy solution
<wers> the thing about homeworks like that is, people rarely do em... contributors do what they feel like doing
<JanCBorchardt> yep, but then why do we have the team? ;)
<thorwil> is anyone of us working on anything that is specific to ubuntu/ayatana?
<wers> JanCBorchardt, good question. I just observed this trend in a project like UX Advocates. only the advocates of 4 pieces of software participated
<wers> thorwil, I think, the scope of Ayatana isn't even well-defined
<wers> and this group turned into a subset of GNOME design
<wers> I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. I just think that we have to rethink our goals, what we actually do, and how we do things
<wers> we don't have success metrics. we just discuss random design-related things every week
<thorwil> my motivation usually comes from getting a portfolio piece out of it, seeing a solution being realized and simply working on interesting concepts (this last one hasn't worked that well, lately)
<thorwil> so unsurprisingly, this here doesn't work. the whole ayatana wiki and ml doesn't work for me
<wers> thorwil, what  portfolio piece?
<JanCBorchardt> thorwil, I have found the Ayatana ML to be quite inefficient as well.
<thorwil> if a saw the chance of helping to build some infrastructure or documentation that will really make a difference, that would work for motivation, too
<JanCBorchardt> I thought thatâs why this team existed. To channel UX activities in Ubuntu.
<wers> JanCBorchardt, as far as I understand, Ayatana UX was formed to be like Ayatana's core team
<wers> this sub-org should lead the org (ayatana)
<wers> is my understanding correct, thorwil ?
<thorwil> wers: portfolio piece == example of my work that i can show to potential clients or employers
<wers> thorwil, ooh. ok
<thorwil> the ideal case is a design being implemented that helps me, being a showcase, and that helps all the users, because it solves a problem and that makes developers happy because they had something nice and worthy to implement
<thorwil> so far this only really worked with ardour
<wers> thorwil, if it always worked out, our work here would be a lot more sustainable and rewarding
<wers> what ways do you suggest to resolve this?
<thorwil> if only i had an answer ...
<wers> I feel that we exchange so many ideas that don't get materialized in the end
<thorwil> one crucial component is direct contact to a developer
<wers> some are really great, but it's a shame they don't get coded
<thorwil> often you need just one developer, but if he isn't the project leader, the leader must be on board, too
<wers> hmm
<wers> so it would help if ayatana ux had dev contacts, right?
<JanCBorchardt> wers, yes
<thorwil> i think that might be at the core of what makes it so hard to get anything happen in gnome or ubuntu
<wers> the thing about volunteer work is, you really just do it if you believe in the project. our devs should buy UX too
<wers> thorwil, what do you mean?
<JanCBorchardt> wers, that you need (to be) a dev to get anything done
<thorwil> wers: clear leadership and the direct contact to it
<godbyk> How to developers and designers work together now?  Or do they?
<wers> a good example is the usability testing lab. it's great that JanCBorchardt codes. if not, the project would've rotten
<wers> ok. I think, we're on the right track now. this sort of discussion should've occurred long ago
<thorwil> yes. i think i should pick up coding, if i want to see more things happen. but that's not a skill i will earn money with any time soon ...
<JanCBorchardt> wers, and itâs also great that someone is helping me because Iâm having a busy time. Also, the kazam screencasting tool is on the way.
<wers> JanCBorchardt, who else does the coding for those?
<JanCBorchardt> for Pongo or Kazam?
<wers> thorwil, that's the issue.. +1 here.
<wers> JanCBorchardt, both
<thorwil> godbyk: you sometimes have developers asking for assistance in design matters and that's a way how it can work fine. except it's often about details, then. can't tackle the grand concepts that way
<wers> I wonder how you make those happen
<godbyk> thorwil: that's what I've noticed.  by the time the developers approach the designers, it's too late to have a big impact.
<JanCBorchardt> Kazam is done by and471 (Andrew Higginson) and pm-netzor (Peter, Launchpad) is helping me with the Pongo GUI
<wers> godbyk, thorwil is right. it's probably because volunteers work on the things they have ownership on
<wers> we can't just plan here and convince coders that this is the right way. we have to either be so charismatic, pay money, or include them in the thinking process
<JanCBorchardt> gnome-design does that pretty good. Always healthy conversation with developers.
<godbyk> something I proposed to mpt a while back was to have a website/book/single resource that pulls together design principles and how they apply to open source projects.  a place where developers could learn about how to do better design themselves.
<JanCBorchardt> godbyk, sounds like the UX pattern library
<JanCBorchardt> aka GNOME HIG 3.0
<godbyk> JanCBorchardt: yeah, along those lines, but a bit grander in scope.
<wers> perhaps, we need a (or some) dev(s) and/or PM(s) on board
<wers> JanCBorchardt, didn't know someone's already working on coding the GUI. good job!
<wers> JanCBorchardt, how do you get them involved?
<godbyk> JanCBorchardt: instead of just a collection of patterns, I think it'd be useful to explain some of the underlying principles behind UI design.
<JanCBorchardt> wers, I tipped off omgubuntu and webupd8, that got it rolling.
<godbyk> and those sorts of principles apply to more than just gnome, linux, etc.
<wers> JanCBorchardt, great. this is really about people skills
<JanCBorchardt> godbyk, like ideologies, not only solutions?
<wers> godbyk, sounds like a UX bible
<godbyk> something like that. :)
<wers> I've this long term plan of institutionalizing UX in FOSS. that way, the whole process will follow UCD
<wers> with the influence of JJG's Elements of UX http://www.adaptivepath.com/events/workshops/businessofux/elements0803.pdf
<godbyk> wers: yes, I think we definitely need to move toward that.
<wers> but that's so grand. I need help in defining the specifics
<thorwil> i have this dream of a website that assists people in following certain design methods and to do heuristic evaluations along the way
<godbyk> does this type of 'big thinking' seem like something that the ayatana ux team should be about?
<thorwil> if projects just had good briefings and kept them in mind, a lot would be won
<wers> JanCBorchardt, btw, I haven't mentioned this to you yet. the name of the Usability lab has "Suite" on it on the wiki. someone suggested turning into a one-stop-shop kind of thing. with tools for personas and other stuff for UCD
<godbyk> thorwil: agreed.
<wers> godbyk, I think, we should re-evaluate our organizational goals and this new direction seems to be ideal
<thorwil> godbyk: yes and no. everything not actionable is worthless. a distant goal that shows the direction for actual steps is good. but if no steps are taken, it's all useless
<JanCBorchardt> wers, yes, itâs really not about the one tool but about techniques how to do user testing
<JanCBorchardt> wers, Pongo is only a small part of it
<mgunes> godbyk, increasing the mindshare of design and ux among foss contributors and fans should definitely be one thing ayatana-ux should be about
<mgunes> that's a goal worth striving for
<godbyk> thorwil: true. but does this seem like the direction we should go in? if so, we can define concrete goals and outcomes.
<wers> JanCBorchardt, that's right. in the future, let's turn it into a UX suite
<wers> I wonder how Mairin's design hub is going
<wers> mgunes, that's a really great goal. let's find ways to do that
<godbyk> I'll gather up my notes on the idea I proposed to mpt and send an email to the ayatana ux mailing list.
<mgunes> could we extend this discussion to the mailing list and spread it over the next week or so? I've been meaning to start it myself.
<wers> I'd like to start this long term "Institutionalizing UX" project
<wers> mgunes, let us
<mgunes> godbyk, that would be appreciated
 * wers thinks this is our most productive meeting so far
<wers> we've been hacking the leaves of evil, but we haven't been striking the root
<thorwil> can we agree on that there should ideally be a scheme that many floss projects will follow, that includes that there's consistent documentation about the project briefing, design considerations, concepts, decisions?
<thorwil> which can happen on the websites of the projects, or on centralized platforms?
<godbyk> thorwil: you mean to define a format for a project outline/brief?
<wers> thorwil, we need a common platform for that
<wers> for example, launchpad
<wers> tweaking launchpad to accommodate that would be great
<godbyk> I don't think it *requires* a platform, but some good examples and a template wouldn't be amiss.
<wers> godbyk, with a common platform, ways could be standardized and things are tracked more easily
<godbyk> something that simply causes a developer starting a new project to take a moment to consider ux would be good.
<JanCBorchardt> I recently talked with Peter Sikking (of GIMP) about exactly that: the need for clearly documenting and communicating design decisions
<thorwil> to be clear, it's a huge goal, but we could split it into parts that will be beneficial to have, anyway
<godbyk> wers: sure. I'm all for a platform, but I don't think we need to wait for one to be built before we start.
<wers> godbyk, but yeah, it really doesn't *require* one. let's start simple
<wers> at least, we started
<mgunes> just throwing this out there: maybe a "free software ux manifesto" similar to the Agile manifesto could help
<thorwil> yes
<godbyk> mgunes: that'd be cool.
<wers> mgunes, can you expound? I'm not familiar with the Agile manifesto
<mgunes> it would just be a statement that a project undersigns, as a statement of intention, which would expand the mindshare
<thorwil> the core should be the most central goals of UXD, from which everything else follows
<JanCBorchardt> wers, http://agilemanifesto.org/
<thorwil> with just enough insights from cognitive psychology to have a solid base
<mgunes> wers, the thing about the Agile manifesto is that while it's a strong (and for its time, radical) statement of vision, it's essentially non-binding
<wers> ooh
<wers> that would be great
<JanCBorchardt> but it clarifies the ideology, and thatâs an important start
<mgunes> right
<thorwil> though this is a killer when applied to what we are discussin ghere: we value "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools" ;)
<wers> too bad I have to go. I'll try to go online with my mobile while on the road
<mgunes> a similar ux manifesto could be a sort of "badge" that projects use to indicate that they care about ux and involve ux principles in their development
<mgunes> wers, goodbye
<mgunes> I have to depart as well; I'll definitely check the log, and *please*, let's continue this on the mailing list.
<JanCBorchardt> mgunes, and a benchmark they can use when needing to make interface or interaction decisions
<mgunes> JanCBorchardt, Nielsen's heuristics or something similar could be useful as such a general benchmark
<godbyk> mgunes: I've got a book that has a bunch of principles in it that I like. I'll just them to the mailing list for discussion.
<godbyk> (Actually, I have a handful of books that list a bunch of principles.  I'll see if I can compile some of those lists for comparison.)
<mgunes> godbyk, please do
<godbyk> some of it may have to wait 'til the weekend, but I'll make a note so I don't forget.
<JanCBorchardt> do you know about the Mozilla UX tags for Bugzilla?
<godbyk> I eavesdropped on that session at UDS-M.
<JanCBorchardt> here it is: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/design-m-heuristics-and-bugs
<JanCBorchardt> and arenât these the most central goals of UXD?
<JanCBorchardt> they should not only be applied as an afterwards measure (tagging bugs) but as principles, guidelines for new apps and benchmark for decisions
 * thorwil -> coffee
 * vish catches up with logs..
<vish> JanCBorchardt:  kazam was andrew idea for a very long time.. but he just got around to finish it..
<vish> had had school , and SC coding that kept distracting him..
<vish> *he had
<JanCBorchardt> vish, yep, Iâm glad it is rolling now :) I was talking to him about collaborating but screencasting and usability testing asks for quite differently shaped tools ;)
<wers-android> Jancborchardt i like how social media worked for that purpose
<vish> godbyk: i think we are going about this the wrong way.. not we cannot be 'thinking big' yet.. and JanCBorchardt's assessment about gnome-design being effective is an illusion ;)
<JanCBorchardt> vish, explain :)
<godbyk> vish: how should we be going about it, do you think?
<vish> the only reason gnome-design is being effective is because they already were already *in* discussion and several of them are already part of those upstreams..
<JanCBorchardt> vish, thatâs what I mean ;)
<godbyk> effective at what? and in discussion about what?
<vish> effective at getting quicker design approvals
<vish> we should rather , find out which areas need help and attack those areas , rather than throw random ideas around..
<JanCBorchardt> vish, did you read the complete backlog?
<vish> oh! no :)
<JanCBorchardt> vish, ;)
<godbyk> vish: Ah, I'm more interested in tackling the larger, overall problem of lack of UX design/thinking when software is being written.
<vish>  i stopped here!  ;p <JanCBorchardt> gnome-design does that pretty good. Always healthy conversation with developers.
<JanCBorchardt> vish, then continue, it gets better :)
<JanCBorchardt> so, does someone already have the log?
<wers-android> vish, what's the illusion thing about?
<vish> ok , but that was an illusion , just wanted to mention that..
<godbyk> Specific problems should, of course, be tackled and solved. But I think we should work to shift the culture a bit from one of people jumping into writing code to one that takes a more design-minded approach first.
<vish> wers-android: the only reason they are effective is because they several are already part of redhat..
<vish> or friends from before..
 * vish continues readin..
<JanCBorchardt> godbyk, ideally those things happen parallel. Thatâs what I meant with gnome-design being effective in my eyes. They have mockups and discuss with the devs, they code it and come to get feedback. Iteratively.
<JanCBorchardt> vish, yep, I know they have a massive advantage. But that does not make them being effective an illusion. ;)
<vish> JanCBorchardt: well , the "does that pretty good" is the illusion ;)
<wers-android> i think, it's a big thing that mccann codes. code talks
<wers-android> don't they do it well?
<wers-android> anyway, let's focus on the solution for us
<wers-android> not on other's success or failure
<JanCBorchardt> wers-android, yep, UX principles are nice but we need to actually have them applied. The problem is not in writing them down but communicating them to the people who code. Just what mgunes said: Â» increasing the mindshare of design and ux among foss contributors and fansÂ«
<godbyk> bbiab
<thorwil> JanCBorchardt: i have logging turned on
<vish> ok.. IMO , discussing anything here is not going to change anything in gnome upstream.. :)
<vish> we should rather discuss about ayatana changes , any problems we identified or how we can improve them
<vish> And godbyk's idea of a book though it sounds great[from what i understand] , but
<vish> .. i have a hard time believing that any gnome project would adopt it. or open source project..
<vish>  IMO , it would be a huge investment of time with very little rewards.
<vish> we can aim for something like agilemanifesto , but if its about making it a binding tool , then it would be very tough
<JanCBorchardt_> vish, promoting the ux heuristics and making more projects aware of them sounds like a good start
<vish> JanCBorchardt_: yup.. i *really* like the idea for the book.. but i'm not confident of it being adopted..
<JanCBorchardt_> vish, important for adoption is the same common ground. And Mozilla is already working with those heuristics as bug tags
<vish> JanCBorchardt_: yup, which projects are interested in that right now?
<vish> JanCBorchardt_: i'm just playing the devil's advocate :)   .. there is gnome3 HIG in the making, wouldnt it be more worth spending time in that?.. just a time <-> effective output ratio
<JanCBorchardt_> vish, GNOME3 HIG is very specific, implementation details. The UX-heuristics are groundwork for that (like one pattern adheres to several heuristics). Also, they are already there.
<JanCBorchardt_> vish, not really groundwork, but rather background / ideology
<vish> ah!
<mgunes> see also: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/design-m-heuristics-and-bugs
<vish> yeah , i'v seen that..
<vish> mgunes: why it worked for FF is the design team tried to work for a problem they had to address , tag relevant bugs and then look at it for final designs..
<vish> where do we want such tagging to be used?
<mgunes> that's a question I had asked in a previous meeting
<mgunes> my answer is: user-facing packages for which Ubuntu / Canonical is an upstream, and default desktop components. that's a start, if not an ambitious one
<vish> exactly! so ayatana issues.. :)
<mgunes> largely, yes
<vish> thats what i said earlier.. if its throughout gnome, then its no point in us discussing it here , we should work with gnome regarding those
<mgunes> agreed
<vish> my understanding of why mpt formed this team was : ayatana ML became a mess, [thorwil had too many friends on the list ;p ] , mpt wanted help regarding some of the issue he would like to address, so he identified a few people who would not drive him too crazy and formed this list to be more a more effective ayatana discussion
<vish>  be *a more
<mgunes> I view this team mostly as the community counterpart of the Canonical design team. Every Ubuntu-related team that Canonical employs has such a counterpart, or integrates community contributors directly; the design team didn't, and it was seen how that was and would continue to be a problem after the "window buttons on the left" saga.
<godbyk> back.
<godbyk> vish, mgunes: I think you're both right about why the team was formed.
<godbyk> vish: wrt the book idea: my train of thought that led me to it was this:
 * mgunes catches up on the log
<godbyk> I think we'd like designers to be involved in the application design far sooner than they are.  It's often too late to have an impact on the UX design by the time bugs are being filed.
<godbyk> There aren't enough designers to help all the developers with all their projects.
<godbyk> Additionally, I don't want it to seem like developers should/must consult with a designer oracle before starting work on their project.
<godbyk> I would like to see the projects better designed from the start, however, and the design-thinking should persist through the entire life of the project.
<vish> godbyk: isnt that what the HIG does?
<godbyk> So it seems that our best hope is to get developers on board with some design principles so they don't need designers to hold their hand the entire time.
<vish> gives the developers something to refer to?
<godbyk> vish: The HIG is entirely too limited in scope.
<godbyk> The solution I thought of was to provide resources that developers can use to learn how to better design the UX of their software.
<vish> godbyk: maybe we should expand it then?  i would expect _that_ to be a reference more of a  tool
<godbyk> Hence the book.
<vish> godbyk: seriously , i'm not trying to discourage you :)
<godbyk> vish: The HIG only applies to GNOME and (at least with HIG 2) was focused more on the nuts and bolts of conforming to a visual style with a few bigger design notions tossed in for kicks.
<godbyk> vish: No, no. I understand completely.  :)
<vish> phew.. :)
<godbyk> vish: And it may be that the HIG (or some meta-HIG) could be devised that would take on this role.  I'm cool with that.
<vish> godbyk: for app everywhere? gnome/KDE/XFCE?
<godbyk> vish: The general design principles would apply to apps under GNOME, KDE, XFCE, etc., yeah.
<godbyk> And cross-distribution.
<JanCBorchardt_> godbyk, so something more abstract that the ux-heuristics?
<godbyk> It's not about 'how do I make a nicely designed {Ubuntu,GNOME,KDE} app?'
<vish> godbyk: well we have the FDO :)
<mgunes> godbyk, I've been thinking along the same lines for a while. the design / ux counterpart of http://producingoss.com would be awesome
<godbyk> it's about, 'how do I ensure my app has a well-designed UX.'
<vish> godbyk: if it is about every environment , it would end being very abstract
<vish> it needs to be more specific
<mgunes> godbyk, there are lots of existing books about that; this should perhaps be "how do I ensure my *free/open source* app has a well-designed UX, and how do I maintain it"
<godbyk> vish: yes and no. I think there are two fronts that should be tackled:
<godbyk> 1. the general design principles should be laid out in a manner that they're easily understood and applicable to the sort of work that FOSS developers do.
<godbyk> 2. we can point at the specific UI guidelines for various distributions, desktop environments, etc. so they can get the nuts and bolts angle.
<godbyk> I think the various HIGs cover the desktop environment-specific stuff.
<godbyk> but they don't talk about any of the larger-picture issues.
<vish> godbyk: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/  ?
<godbyk> I haven't seen any of them mention, for instance, how you might read a bug report in the light of how it may be an overarching UX bug and not just a silly user who didn't read the docs.
<godbyk> mgunes: True. But I suspect most developers aren't rushing out to fill their bookshelves with those books.  Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. :)
<godbyk> It's not so much about writing a book or building a website or figuring out which org (Ubuntu, GNOME, FDO, etc.) should be responsible.
<vish> godbyk: i disagree here , we cannot get to be so abstract to cover every environment...  every desktop has a target audience [atleast its supposed to].. we cannont have a one-size-fits all
<JanCBorchardt_> the ux-heuristics seem abstract and complete enough to be that, or arenât they?
<vish> cannot*
<godbyk> I'm interested in instilling this design sense in the FOSS community at large.
<vish> JanCBorchardt_: yeah , tagging is simple..
<mgunes> right; if there was a book that we could point to as *the* primer for doing design-minded FOSS development, it would be easier to promote and get people interested in
<JanCBorchardt_> vish, no, I mean not as bug tags, but as guidelines, as previously mentioned
<godbyk> vish: You can for a number of the UX principles.  Fitts' law applies to all the desktop environments, for instance.
<vish> godbyk: JanCBorchardt_: tagging works everything , it tags the problem , but how each desktop deals with is needs to be different
<JanCBorchardt_> vish, thatâs why I said the HIG patterns could be linked to ux-heuristics
<vish> oh i need to revive and kill fitts!
<mgunes> again, http://producingoss.com is a great example as a "go-to" book
<vish> ;p
<godbyk> vish: But yes, I envision that in addition to the truly general/universal guidelines, we will have to focus on specific environments to some degree.  (Though much of that should exist in the HIG for that environment.)
<godbyk> vish: I know! I cringe whenever someone brings up Fitts.
<thorwil> vish: there are a lot of things that apply almost independent of target audience. at least if you keep out certain disabilities, there are a lot of things you can say of human abilities, cognition and thinking. that is a base for a long list of rules that should be followed
<godbyk> mgunes: that link doesn't work for me.
<vish> godbyk: ok.. so you envision writing new laws kinda thing?
<godbyk> I think that we should also discuss how developers can do some user testing, too.  (As if we didn't have enough to talk about!)
<vish> kevin's law :)
<godbyk> vish: I think we should explore the underlying principles and show how they apply.
<mgunes> godbyk, works here; try visiting a bit later
<vish> ok..
<godbyk> mgunes: ah, it just popped up.  my internet is being weird today.
<vish> godbyk: i think our first goal would be to identify the problems that are common to most DE
<godbyk> vish: yeah. and I'd like to hear from developers about things they're interested in knowing about.
<vish> godbyk: well , if they knew the problem, they wouldnt have the problem ;)
<godbyk> it seems like a lot of complaints (in Ubuntu-land, at least) stem from a lack of knowledge of the design process and/or design principles.
<godbyk> vish: if only that were the case!
<vish> or maybe we should look at existing bug reports.. do you know about the needs-design tag?
<godbyk> no, I haven't seen that tag.
<godbyk> searching for tag:needs-design brings up all of 19 bugs.
<thorwil> vish: damn, how to search by tag on LP?
<thorwil> nm
<vish> yeah , ubuntu bugs are https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=needs-design
<godbyk> so either the tag is rarely used or those bugs get fixed quickly?
<vish> several bugs are not tagged as needs-design though ;p
<vish> godbyk: yeah , rarely used.. or fixed as seen fit by the developer
<vish> godbyk: those are the _ubuntu_ bugs , there is probably something similar in gnome
<vish> godbyk: well , several of the papercut bugs are needs-design ;)
<vish> you could look there too.
<godbyk> 'kay.
<vish> godbyk: this should be a shorter list to look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts/+bugs?field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED
<godbyk> I guess another way to think about the book/website/whatever is that it should be a sort of be-your-own-design-team starter kit.
<daker> godbyk, +1
<JanCBorchardt_> godbyk, yes, we need to have people educated easy
<vish> godbyk: if its for an app , where do you think a developer would look into? :)
<godbyk> vish: can you rephrase the question?
<vish> godbyk: lets say , some one wants to develop an app , where would the developer would look for guidelines?
<vish> gah! sentence formation fail!
<godbyk> gotcha
<godbyk> I'd say that this kit would contain the general/background information on design plus pointers to HIGs for the various desktop environments.
<vish> bingo!
<vish> godbyk: can a developer develop an app for every environment at once?
<godbyk> I think your notion of the design of an app is tied too closely to a particular desktop environment.
<godbyk> Let's look at the GNOME HIG table of contents:
<godbyk> http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/2.30/
<godbyk> There's a very small chapter that covers some basic principles.
<godbyk> I think that needs to be expanded quite a bit.
<vish> maybe we should expand it?
<vish> :)
<mgunes> godbyk, my worry is that a lot of the generally accepted UX / UCD wisdom on how to do good interaction design will not apply to the nature of FOSS development. and that is where this book / resource should come in: it should be custom tailored to the FOSS world. but that's no easy task; it takes surveying the existing methods that work, and devising new ones.
<godbyk> I suspect the expansion would be enough to warrant its own document, though.
<JanCBorchardt_> I was planning to write my thesis about something similar ;)
<vish> godbyk: yes , but being an expansion of the 'gnome' HIG , would give it more value..
<godbyk> mgunes: I think the underlying design principles apply regardless, but there are certainly FOSS-specific things we should address.
<godbyk> vish: for gnome developers, yes.
<godbyk> vish: but the info is also of use to kde and xfce devs.
<JanCBorchardt_> so what would be FOSS-specific things?
<vish> godbyk: i kinda think that when we design something it needs to feel native to the environment.. but i think a design for an app needs to start from the app's goal
<mgunes> godbyk, principles do apply, but a lot of the time, the execution necessitates dealing with people, teams, stakeholders etc. of an entirely different nature. and the political economy of free software is fundamentally different to those of the corporate world or startups, for which classic interaction design guidelines are usually meant.
<godbyk> vish: absolutely. does it say that in the gnome hig anywhere?  does it talk about how to ensure your app helps the user achieve their goal?
<vish> godbyk: exactly! _that_ should be fixed .. :)
<vish> godbyk: identify the problems in the existing HIG's and then fix them.. it is very easy to get very vague with this
<JanCBorchardt_> godbyk, what would be FOSS-specific things?
<godbyk> vish: don't you think that the knowledge of ensuring your app helps the user achieve her goal is applicable to more than gnome, though?
<vish> godbyk: that works universally.. hence i mentioned it. but gnomeHIG might not have mentioned it.. [i dont know every part of it ;)]
<mgunes> JanCBorchardt_, I think the advice regarding how to manage and maintain a project can and should be FOSS-specific
<godbyk> vish: shouldn't those universals be present in some document that's independent of the gnome hig (or kde hig or whatever)?
<vish> godbyk: what i'm trying to get at is.. if its suppose to be for ever environment , then FDO is the place to address them
<godbyk> JanCBorchardt_: I agree with mgunes. I think the dev process is different enough that it's worth addressing.
<mgunes> How do you attract designers to work on your proprietary, sealed-box project? You pay them! You usually can't in free software, unless you're a for-profit free software company, or well-sponsored foundation.
<vish> godbyk: its no point in us, just putting something up in the wild , we need to work with upstreams..
<godbyk> JanCBorchardt_: I suspect that FOSS developers take on a lot more of the design decisions than proprietary developers do.
<godbyk> (only because it's usually a manager's (or someone else's) job to write the design spec. and the developers just implement the spec.)
<mgunes> How do you define project requirements at the inception of the project? The answer for the proprietary / web world is "do user research" - how do you do it in free software? How do you avoid bowing down to random feature requests? How do you maintain a project's design focus in the light of new contributors coming in?
<mgunes> etc, etc
<JanCBorchardt_> godbyk, I was aiming for something specific but yes, it is really the whole thing that is different
<godbyk> vish: well, I'm not proposing we just toss it into the ether.  It'll cross-reference the gnome hig, the kde guidelines, etc. and it'd be nice if the gnome and kde higs referenced this work, too.
<godbyk> mgunes: exactly.
<mgunes> these are matters where you can't take the canonical UX / UCD wisdom and apply it to free software
<mgunes> new guidelines need to be developed, and existing ones solidified
<JanCBorchardt_> mgunes, user research is possible in FOSS as well. But as always, someone has to JFDI :) â the real problem is communicating it to the developers (ideally by being one yourself)
<godbyk> vish: I'm all for improving the GNOME HIG, but I think the core design principles transcend GNOME and that knowledge would be beneficial to developers in other environments, too.
<mgunes> JanCBorchardt_, I wasn't arguing that it isn't possible, but that it needs to be done differently
<JanCBorchardt_> or at least very involved with the project. We had that in the UX Advocates session at GUADEC
<vish> godbyk: we should try at FDO then?
<godbyk> vish: I don't know. I haven't been thinking about whose umbrella it fits under.  I'm still working on what info it should contain.
<vish> cool!
<JanCBorchardt_> godbyk, was that what you wanted to post to the ML? Or do you have a writeup somewhere in the wild?
<godbyk> JanCBorchardt_: I don't have anything written up yet, but I'll post something to the mailing list sometime during the next couple days.
<godbyk> I'll take our discussion here and try to summarize the points made (for and against the notion).
<JanCBorchardt_> great! :)
 * Emerling is away: Estoy ocupado
<nigelb> !away | Emerling
<ubottu> Emerling: You should avoid noisy away messages and -nicks in a busy channel like #ubuntu, or other Ubuntu channels; it causes excessive scrolling which is unfair to new users. Use the command "/away <reason>" to set your client away silently.  See also Â«/msg ubottu GuidelinesÂ»
<Emerling> ok, iá¸¿ sorry
 * Emerling is away: Estoy ocupado
 * Emerling is back (gone 00:00:08)
<Emerling> i be in very rooms chanels and no look it channel ,, (my english is bad)
<j_> hola, como puedo acceder a una asesoria para instalar ubuntu en un pc
<Ganesh_R> Hi is this the support channel?
<czajkowski> Ganesh_R: try #ubuntu this is a meeting channel
<czajkowski> Ganesh_R: or there could be loco support, have a look at loco.ubuntu.com/teams
<Ganesh_R> Thanks
<czajkowski> np
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-09-17
<Emerling> Hi World Free
<pleia2> hello Emerling :)
<Emerling> Hi friend thanks, Excuse me my English is bad
<pleia2> we're rounding up board members and will start soon
<pleia2> no problem
<Emerling> ok i'm ready
<pleia2> mi espanol es muy malo :)
<Emerling> I undestand
<dinda> Evening all
<Emerling> dinda, good evening
<pleia2> #startmeetin
<pleia2> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 19:02. The chair is pleia2.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<pleia2> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the Americas meeting for September 15th, 2010! The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<pleia2> We only have one applicant on the list this evening, so we shouldn't have trouble getting through the list :)
<pleia2> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<pleia2> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<pleia2> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<pleia2> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<pleia2> [TOPIC] Emerling membership
<MootBot> New Topic:  Emerling membership
<dinda> Welcome Emerling
<Emerling> dinda, thanks
<beuno> hola Emerling!
<Emerling> hola beuno
<easter_egg> Emerling, bien venido
<dinda> good wiki page
<Emerling> gracias easter_egg
<pleia2> Emerling: please tell us a little about yourself :)
<Emerling> I use Ubuntu since version 5.10 and I echo ubuntu conferences since 2007. without belonging to any group or team. in 2008 met LoCo Team Venezuela and I automatically fell in love with this community, thanks to Rolando Blanco and Efrain Valles. (Effijayxs). and since then I believe in the ideology of ubuntu and I think everyone needs a better future operating systems and computing in general.
<pleia2> Emerling: carabobo-ubuntu.org.ve doesn't have a lot on it, what kind of events does the team do?
<Emerling> carabobo is Regional team of ubuntu-ve
<Emerling> today have one yeras old i m funder
<Emerling> we pardticped in very conferences and festivals
<Emerling> flisol, CNSL etc
<pleia2> great :)
<dinda> Emerling:  what did you do at fisol?
<Emerling> but there is still much to do, we had over 10 events in participation with other lugs
<Emerling>  I gave a conference and I was part of the organization
<beuno> Emerling, hola
<Emerling> hola beuno  hi
<beuno> Emerling, contanos un poco mas
<beuno> Emerling, en cuantos eventos participaste?
<Emerling>  aprox 20
<Emerling> en 2 yeras
<Emerling> years
<beuno> Emerling, podemos pasar al castellano si es mas facil
<easter_egg> Emerling, mui bueno
<beuno> dinda, pleia2 y maco dicen que pueden entender
<Emerling> ok he participado en 20 eventos aprox en 2 aÃ±os y estoy organizando varios equipos
<beuno> y yo pregunto  :)
<Emerling> en varias ciudades
<beuno> Emerling, y que haces generalmente en los eventos?
<Emerling> soy parte de la organizacion y siempre, pero siempre doy algunas conferencias en temas basicos y d enivel medio
<Emerling> I am part of the organization and always, always give some lectures on basic topics enivel d half
<Emerling> level half
<beuno> Emerling, tuviste algo de participacion afuera del LoCo de Venezuela?
<Emerling> if, before I get into ubuntu and conferencelectured Venezuela
<beuno> Emerling, no hace falta que traduzcas al ingles, vayamos en castellano
<Emerling> ok
<easter_egg> Emerling, CNSL en Portugal?
<Emerling> tambien soy parte de la traduccion de ubuntu al wayuunaiki idioma de la etnia indigena wayuu
<Emerling> entre venezuela y colombia
<beuno> Emerling, contanos un poco mas de las traducciones
<beuno> donde haces las traducciones?
<beuno> Launchpad?
<Emerling> si
<C3s4r> Emerling, pega el enlace acÃ¡ por favor.
<beuno> Emerling, en tu perfil de Launchpad no figuran traducciones desde el 2009
<Emerling> yo intente usaruna aplicacion para traducir offline pero me gustÃ³ usar via on line
<beuno> puede ser?
<Emerling> https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-l10n-guc
<beuno> https://edge.launchpad.net/~emerling/+karma
<easter_egg> Emerling, Usted tiene un usuario separado para las traducciones?
<beuno> hola C3s4r!
<Emerling> yo, organizo en las conferencias, y contatcos a personas que estan y quieren ayudar al proyecto de traducir y ellos colaboran, auqneu aun estamos en trabajo de colaboracion
<beuno> C3s4r, justo para apoyar a Emerling   :)
<pleia2> hola C3s4r :)
<Emerling> del resto uso diccionarios de espaÃ±ol a wayuunaiki
<beuno> Emerling, trabajaste con Fabian Rodriguez?
<Emerling> no recuerdo
<beuno> Emerling, no parece muy activo el proyecto de traduccion
<Emerling> generalmente con efraiun valles (effijaix)
<nejode> effie_jayx
<Emerling> si, desde dic, he tenido algunas dudas por yo no hablo el idioma., y he preferido organizar a los traductores
<Emerling> y ewnseÃ±arles a trabajar
<Emerling> para lograr la traduccion
<C3s4r> beuno, hola
<C3s4r> beuno, te cuento que Emerling tiene una gran participaciÃ³n con el LoCo Teams.
 * beuno nods
<C3s4r> beuno, Emerling ahorita es mi apoyo para coordinar los equipos de trabajo que se planteo para darle oportunidad a toda la comunidad en administrar algÃºn servicio.
<beuno> C3s4r, buen testimonio
<beuno> I'm ready to vote
<C3s4r> beuno, por otra parte, se le dio la oportunidad de crear un equipo local con el apoyo del LoCo Teams, y hemos estado coordinando varias reuniones para las traducciones al Wuayunaiki.
<beuno> pleia2, dinda, maco?
<dinda> ready here
<maco> sÃ­
<pleia2> [VOTE] Emerling membership
<MootBot> Please vote on:  Emerling membership.
<MootBot> Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0  to MootBot
<MootBot> E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting
<pleia2> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from pleia2. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1
<beuno> +1
<maco> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from maco. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2
<MootBot> +1 received from beuno. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3
<dinda> +1
<MootBot> +1 received from dinda. 4 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 4
<pleia2> [endvote]
<MootBot> Final result is 4 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 4
<pleia2> welcome, Emerling!
<Emerling>  thanks
<beuno> bienvenido Emerling!
<C3s4r> Emerling, Felicitaciones :D
<Emerling> it is not just to get a email@ubuntu.com is much more treatises, a commitment to represent an operating system with dignity and value effort to improve, to accept your faults and mistakes but learn from those mistakes and faults. is ironic to imagine trying to be more commitment and duties, when we have too and enough in our lives, but the reason is motivation. to feel part of something serious and important and above all do with the heart.
<dinda> congratulations Emerling!
<Emerling> gracias amigos
<JamUnix> Felicitaciones !!! Emerling
<dinda> hope to see you at some event some day :)
<Emerling> gracias james_w
<easter_egg> =]
<Emerling> sure dinda
<ElWuilMeR> Felicitaciones Emerling sinceramente lo mereces.! A continuar trabajando...
<pleia2> thanks for coming everyone :)
<pleia2> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 19:27.
<Emerling> gracias team venezuela
<Emerling> gracias team carabobo
<Niove> Felicidades y mucho Ã©xitos, Emerling
<C3s4r> Emerling, ;)
<Emerling> i happy :D
<Emerling> gracias Niove
<nejode> Keep up the good work Emerling !!
<Emerling> gracias nejode  fuiste parte esencial para mi y el equipode carabobo
<Emerling> ahora con mas ganas d etrabajar y muchas ideas
<ntovar> felicitaciones Emerling
<Emerling> gracias ntovar  amigo nelo
<Guest95561> Buenas instale Ubuntu 10.04 y tengo problemas alguien que me pueda ayudar?
<ttx> o/
<ogra> moo
 * skaet waves to ttx, ogra ;)
<skaet> ...  its looking like its about that time.
 * marjo waves
<skaet> ah good,  first on the agenda is around ;)
 * ttx bows to the release masters
<skaet> lol
<skaet> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is skaet.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
 * kenvandine waves
<skaet> [TOPIC] QA team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  QA team update
 * joshuahoover waves
<marjo> Hardware testing
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Laptops
<marjo>     Passed:   42 (89%)    Failed:    0 ( 0%)    Untested:  5 (11%)
<marjo> Servers:
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~fader/hw-testing/current.html
<marjo> Desktops:
<marjo>     Passed:    6 (43%)    Failed:    0 ( 0%)    Untested:  8 (57%)
<marjo> Cause of untested desktops is under investigation today.
<marjo> Boot Performance
<marjo> http://people.canonical.com/~ameetp/BootChart.html
<marjo> Boot Performance Week of 2010-09-13 to 2010-09-17
<marjo> -------------------------------------------------
<marjo> Number of system regressions on Ubuntu Desktop: 0
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~ameetp/BootChart.html
<marjo> Unresolved Critical/High Release Targeted Bugs
<marjo>     * 625076:checkbox fails to verify ssl validity in data exchange with launchpad.net
<marjo>    - Fix released
<marjo> Work Items Status
<marjo>  * http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-platform-qa-ubuntu-10.10.html
<marjo>  * https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-maverick-automated-server-testing
<marjo>  hggdh will focus on finishing the last two remaining test cases
<marjo>  * https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/qa-maverick-bugsquad-roadmap
<marjo>  ara is making good progress on both
<marjo> burndown chart looks good and work items are making good progress towards release
<marjo> skaet: that's it from QA team
<skaet> marjo,  thanks!  any questions?
<marjo> skaet: thx
<skaet> [TOPIC] Security team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Security team update
<jdstrand> o/
<skaet> 8/
 * jdstrand lied about not being able to attend in google
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-security.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> With regard to the burndown chart, what is left for us is not tied to
<jdstrand> the release, so we are good there.
<jdstrand> We got AppArmor 2.5.1rc1 uploaded, which fixes several issues with the
<jdstrand> userspace tools and the maverick kernel. We want 2.5.1final in maverick
<jdstrand> eventually because it fixes a few more issues when using a non-Ubuntu
<jdstrand> mainline kernel without the compatibility patches (LP: #626984). We
<jdstrand> expect this to happen as part of the debugging process the kernel team
<jdstrand> typically employs where they point users to a build of an upstream
<jdstrand> kernel. Since this doesn't affect maverick directly, we've milestoned it
<jdstrand> for maverick-updates.
<jdstrand> bug #626984
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 626984 in apparmor (Ubuntu Maverick) "apparmor_parser crashed with SIGSEGV in __libc_start_main()" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/626984
<jdstrand> beyond that, we are in good shape
<skaet> jdstrand,  thanks!
<jdstrand> sure :)
<skaet> any questions for security?
<skaet> ok then,   moving right along...
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kernel team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kernel team update
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-10.10.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-10.10.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-kernel-team.svg
<ogasawara> For the bugs noted in the agenda, status is as follows:
<ogasawara> Bug 633392 - Have asked for testing and confirmation against a Maverick kernel.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 633392 in linux (Ubuntu) "Bridged Guests losing network connectivity" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/633392
<ogasawara> Bug 628029 - Assigned to kernel dev (lag) and the fix appears straightforward.  However, ogra commented that the hw might not be ready for it.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 628029 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Maverick) "[maverick] panda ES1.0 does not suspend on beta image" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/628029
<ogasawara> Bug 615722 - We don't support a fsl-imx51 kernel in Maverick.  Still waiting for clarification from the assigned kernel dev (cooloney).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 615722 in linux-fsl-imx51 (Ubuntu Lucid) "Missing a patch to switch low power mode only support in mc13892 2.0a" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/615722
<ogasawara> Bug 613083 - Assigned to kernel dev (jjohansen) and being investigated.
<ubottu> Bug 613083 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/613083 is private
<ogasawara> I'd also moved two bugs that were under our section on the agenda to other teams as one was against pulseaudio and the other against plymouth.  The remaining bugs are either closed as Invalid or Fix Released for Maverick.
<skaet> sweet
<ogasawara> As a general status, we've uploaded what we hope to be the final Maverick kernel, 2.6.35-22.32.  This kernel contains some high priority security fixes, reverts some KMS disablement patches, and pulls in a number of upstream stable bug fixes.  We continue to be below the trend line for our overall burn down chart and all remaining work items are not release critical.
<ogasawara> There is chatter just this morning of broken touchpads that we're trying to track down and might requi
<ogasawara> re a last minute upload :(
<ogasawara> Have pushed test kernels for confirmation.
<ogasawara> Questions?
<jjohansen> Bug 613083 - is entirely Amazon, and they are addressing the issue
<ubottu> Bug 613083 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/613083 is private
<skaet> if there needs to be another kernel - what other bugs are in the queue to be resolved with it?
<ogasawara> skaet: there might be one patch for macbooks which don't boot the livecd
<apw> we have a macbook pro live CD boot fix in the pipe
<cjwatson> oh, is that the kernel's fault?
<cjwatson> there's also an issue with syslinux and old macbooks, apparently (unlikely to be fixed)
<cjwatson> may or may not be the same thing (probably not, thinking about it)
<ogasawara> skaet: there is also a patch to resolve a null pointer dereference for LIRC
<cjwatson> smagoun was reporting it
<apw> cjwatson, this is specific to graphics, black screen on those models
<cjwatson> ok
<cjwatson> not the same then
<skaet> ogasawara,  thanks , good to know.
<skaet> any other questions?
<apw> if we do decide to spin the kernel when is the drop dead date for the release team
<skaet> robbiew: ^^
 * cjwatson hates giving drop-dead dates, we always end up dropping dead
<kenvandine> hehe
<apw> cjwatson, heh yeah there is that
<skaet> lol
<apw> perhaps we should say we'll get you a recommendation today
<robbiew> apw: that works
<cjwatson> up to next Thursday would be unlikely to cause significant practical problems, IMO
<cjwatson> beyond that will be a headache
<robbiew> yeah
 * robbiew remembers Intrepid...and cries a bit
<skaet> cjwatson, robbiew - thanks.  :)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Foundations team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Foundations team update
<cjwatson> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#RC%20Milestoned%20bugs
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FoundationsTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick#RC%20Milestoned%20bugs
<cjwatson> ... for full details of bugs, read above
<cjwatson> Bug:606373 - cloud-init output does not get to console when booted with pv-grub and ramdisk
<cjwatson>  * The plymouth part of this seems to have been worked around in cloud-init 0.5.15-0ubuntu2.  Can the server team please confirm?
<cjwatson> We're getting down to the intractable bugs (remote bootloader debugging, hard-to-reproduce failures ...) at this point, which may require release-noting.
<cjwatson> Work still in progress:
<cjwatson>  * Wubi validation and any GRUB upgrade fixes required
<cjwatson>  * dmraid installation fixes
<cjwatson>  * ureadahead OOM
<cjwatson>  * ubiquity consolidation
<cjwatson>  * any remaining upgrade failures
<cjwatson>  * possible upgrade to llvm-2.8
<cjwatson> doko would like a freeze exception for bug 632727 (llvm-2.8).  I think this is likely OK since none of the affected packages are on CDs, and I trust his judgement on matters toolchain.  Any comments?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 632727 in llvm-gcc-4.2 (Ubuntu Maverick) "FFe: include llvm 2.8 and corresponding package in maverick" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/632727
<cjwatson> ttx: ^- server question
 * ttx looks
<skaet> cjwatson,  what's up with linuxtools and the CD images?
<cjwatson> I think that's stale packages on the DVD images, which are only built once every few days
<cjwatson> note the ABI is -20
<skaet> ok thanks.
<ttx> cjwatson: i've trouble weighing the benefits on the spot... but I trust doko's judgement on that one
<cjwatson> yeah, the Ubuntu DVD was last built 20100914
<cjwatson> ttx: I meant the plymouth question actually, bug 606373
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 606373 in plymouth (Ubuntu Maverick) "cloud-init output does not get to console when booted with pv-grub and ramdisk" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/606373
<ttx> ah
<cjwatson> while I can see a possible cause, if you've worked around it, I would rather not change plymouth unnecessarily
<ttx> oops
<ttx> smoser: ^
<doko> ttx, cjwatson: it's not yet used a build dependencies
<cjwatson> doko: right, I looked at it and it seemed relatively harmless; I just wanted to double-check with other release folks before saying yes
<smoser> that is fixed
<cjwatson> smoser: so if I mark the plymouth task wontfix for maverick and keep it open for natty, that would be OK with you?
<ttx> so can be wontfix for maverick
<smoser> well, worked around.
<smoser> yes, thats what i was going to suggest cjwatson
<smoser> thanks
<cjwatson> right, great, thanks
<ttx> smoser: thanks for your expert eye
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] server team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  server team update
<ttx> yay
 * skaet waves
<ttx> Updated release status at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus
<ttx> no more release-milestoned bugs
<ttx> 3 other high/critical maverick bugs
<ttx> Bug 628055 - Instances don't start correctly: Security Labeling error running aa_change_profile (Daviey): more investigation needed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 628055 in libvirt (Ubuntu Maverick) "Instances don't start correctly: Security Labeling error running aa_change_profile()" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/628055
<ttx> a bit strage, seems to happen only on i386, and we almost always test on amd64
<ttx> we plan to spend testing cycles next week on that one
<ttx> Bug 582963  - apache2 SSL pass phrase dialog can't read input (zul): need input from upstart overlords on how to do it without breaking everything else
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 582963 in apache2 (Ubuntu Maverick) "SSL pass phrase dialog can't read input" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/582963
<ttx> we tried to fix that one and broke something else... so we'd welcome input on how to fix it.. or if it should be kept the way it is for maverick
<ttx> and releasenoted
<ttx> (I'm fine either way, it already affects lucid)
<cjwatson> are you already using plymouth commands to prompt?
<cjwatson> or are you trying to talk directly to the console?
<ttx> current try was to talk directly to console
<cjwatson> ah, don't do that
<cjwatson> use 'plymouth ask-for-password'
<ttx> zul: ^
<zul> ah ok
<cjwatson> if you want to make it backwards-compatible, you could use 'if command -v plymouth >/dev/null 2>&1 && plymouth --ping; then ...'
<zul> like cryptsetup?
<cjwatson> but that may not be necessary
<cjwatson> yes
<ttx> Bug 629005 - libmysqlclient / mysql-cluster upgrade snafu (zul): under investigation, should be fixed soon
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 629005 in mysql-dfsg-5.1 (Ubuntu Maverick) "package libmysqlclient16 5.1.41-3ubuntu12.6 failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/libmysqlclient.so.16.0.0', which is also in package mysql-cluster-client-5.1 0:7.0.9-1ubuntu7" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/629005
<ttx> doko just added bug 641384, I'll look into it.. next week
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 641384 in memcached (Ubuntu Maverick) "memcached binaries seeded in Ubuntu.Maverick supported-misc-servers seed" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/641384
<ttx> Maverick bugs affecting server, in other teams:
<cjwatson> (using plymouth for this also means that if multiple things are starting in parallel and each need password input, then they'll queue up rather than fighting over the console)
<ttx> waiting on archive admins on bug 638421 and bug 638424
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 638421 in hadoop (Ubuntu Maverick) "Please remove and blacklist hadoop package" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/638421
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 638424 in hbase (Ubuntu Maverick) "Please remove and blacklist hbase package" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/638424
<ttx> Foundations: bug 569900
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 569900 in mdadm (Ubuntu Lucid) "mount: mounting /dev/md0 on /root/ failed: Invalid argument" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/569900
<ttx> not sure we'll have time for a shot at this one
<cjwatson> I'll process those archive bugs today
<ttx> Kernel: bug 613083 and bug 606373
<ubottu> Bug 613083 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/613083 is private
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 606373 in plymouth (Ubuntu) "cloud-init output does not get to console when booted with pv-grub and ramdisk" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/606373
<ttx> that last one was just closed, methinks
<ttx> and the first one is actively worked on
<cjwatson> I suspect that 569900 will go away when we switch to a new mdadm metadata version, but unfortunately that isn't feasible for maverick
<cjwatson> (this is a bit of a guess though)
<skaet> cjwatson, ttx:  on the latest QA report, Bug 641259 seems to be prominent - is someone looking at it?
<ttx> cjwatson: maybe mark it wontfix for maverick, so that I stop bothering you about it :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 641259 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub does not appear to load after maverick post-beta install" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/641259
 * ttx looks
<cjwatson> skaet: I was just talking with fader about that
<skaet> cool.
<cjwatson> skaet: I gave him a few suggestions, but, well, see my comment above about intractable problems like remote bootloader debugging
<fader_> Yeah, this one is tough to pull data out of :(
<skaet> as long as its on the radar....
<cjwatson> if it's a tiny little netbook then ship one to me and I can probably fit it into my study somewhere
<cjwatson> like glued to the ceiling or something
<skaet> heh
<cjwatson> if it's bigger than that it'll be difficult
<ttx> so all in all, not too bad two weeks before RC.
<skaet> thanks ttx :)
 * ttx bows again
<cjwatson> fader_: BTW, is it reproducible with a normal interactive install, rather than through the automatic install framework you guys use?
<fader_> cjwatson: Yes, it is
<fader_> cjwatson: Though still installed via PXE; I haven't tried with a physical CD yet
<cjwatson> ok, well, if it reproduces with that and it's a netbook then maybe it would be possible to ship it to me temporarily?
<cjwatson> I'm unlikely to be able to fix it otherwise
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop team update
<kenvandine> ok
<kenvandine> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReleaseStatus
<kenvandine> Had a bit of a scare on Wednesday, the mesa upload that fixed KDE and some other problems completely broke UNE.  But that is all fixed now
<kenvandine> thanks to everyone that helped with that :)
<kenvandine> [LINK] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+specs?searchtext=desktop-maverick
<kenvandine> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team.html
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/maverick/+specs?searchtext=desktop-maverick
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-desktop-team.html
<kenvandine> burndown is looking good
<kenvandine> we are well on track for maverick
<kenvandine> i think that is all i have, questions?
<skaet> is it likely that most of the bugs on the list will get fixes in place in time?
<kenvandine> not sure... we hope of course
<kenvandine> seb128 would know better :)
<kenvandine> sorry
<skaet> :)
<kenvandine> most are assigned
<kenvandine> the one i am hoping for most is bug 551809
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 551809 in gtk+2.0 (Ubuntu) "gnome-settings-daemon crashed with SIGSEGV" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/551809
<kenvandine> i think we have at least a lead on tracking that down
<kenvandine> so progress, but it has so many dupes
<skaet> gotcha.   thanks for the update.  :)
<kenvandine> np
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu One team update
<joshuahoover> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/MaverickReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> hi! the list of high/critical u1 project bugs are found on that release status page i posted
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOne/MaverickReleaseStatus
<joshuahoover> we did our best to get the most important u1 bugs fixed for final freeze but still have some that we'd like to get in (by tuesday) if permitted...we had one key u1 team member out sick early this week which really hurt our ability to get everything done
<joshuahoover> i'll provide the 7 bugs (in rough order of importance - most important listed here first) that we'd like freeze exceptions on with a little info on each...
<joshuahoover> bug #617656 - causes nautilus to hang when u1 is asking for a lot of folders...very hard to troubleshoot but we think we have a fix that we're testing right now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 617656 in Ubuntu One Client "nautilus hangs while asking for folders" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/617656
<joshuahoover> bug #640392 - fix to show proper emblems on folders in nautilus (rather than showing "updating" emblem across synced folders)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 640392 in ubuntuone-client (Ubuntu) "syncdaemon_metadata_get_is_synced always returns FALSE for post-generations folders" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/640392
<joshuahoover> bug #634384 - not sure yet if this is client or server, trying to confirm now...prevents the music store from connecting after initial sign-in/up to u1...store works after rbox restart, but this is a bad 1st impression
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 634384 in libubuntuone "[maverick] Stuck at connect page when buying song" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/634384
<joshuahoover> bug #639835 - fixes an issue for desktopcouch apps where requests to couchdb views would fail if couchdb crashed after requesting a view - we'll be requesting a lucid sru for this one
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 639835 in desktopcouch "Views fail to reconnect after server restart" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/639835
<joshuahoover> bug #639017 - fixes a timeout condition from u1 syncdaemon that can occur when other apps like u1-preferences, etc. call syncdaemon
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 639017 in Ubuntu One Client "Use a different dbus name for uniqueness purposes" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/639017
<joshuahoover> bug #638187 - fixes a regression in the u1sdtool that caused --list-shared to not show the current list of u1 shares
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 638187 in ubuntuone-client (Ubuntu) "SD does not refresh shares resulting in stale data shown in u1sdtool --list-shared" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/638187
<joshuahoover> bug #640438 - fixes ubuntuone-preferences verbose output when started from the terminal
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 640438 in Ubuntu One Client "ubuntuone-preferences is too verbose" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/640438
<joshuahoover> i'm was planning on subscribing ubuntu-release to these and propose for maverick (for those that aren't) unless there are immediate objections
<skaet> sounds good
<joshuahoover> that's it from ubuntu one unless there are questions :)
<skaet> robbiew,  cjwatson,  do you want these marked in the system in any special way?  (FFe? )
<skaet> thanks joshuahoover
<robbiew> nah...they're bugs not features anyway
<skaet> ok.  thanks.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kubuntu team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Kubuntu team update
 * skaet looks around for Riddell, ScottK?
<kenvandine> Riddell is on holiday
<skaet> ok,  seeing ScottK seems to be indicated as away
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Experience team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Desktop Experience team update
<kenvandine> davidbarth_, did you get reconnected ok?
<davidbarth_> just reconnected
<davidbarth_> yes, sorry
<skaet> cool,  whew.
<davidbarth_> the report is up there: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/MaverickReleaseStatus
<davidbarth_> here is a quick summary
<davidbarth_> most of the bugs that were tracked for the release are fixed, like flash video running fullscreen again on unity
<davidbarth_> memleaks and visual artifacts on QL are fixed, somehow
<davidbarth_> somehow, because we're still seeing some resurgences of them
<davidbarth_> so we're still hard at work hunting the remaining parts of that
<davidbarth_> we've landed some more changes covered by FF exception reuqests
<davidbarth_> and last, but not mentioned in the report but we had to revert some changes in libdbusmenu-qt because of some processe issues
<davidbarth_> we're working with kubuntu and upstream developers to resolve that
<davidbarth_> it does not impact the release afaict as the changes have been split and reintegrated as distro-patches while we re-roll the full assignment process
<davidbarth_> questions?
<skaet> thanks for the summary davidbarth_
<skaet> [TOPIC] ARM team update
<MootBot> New Topic:  ARM team update
<ogra> wohoo
 * ogra waves ARMs
<skaet> heh
<ogra> Detailed status at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Maverick
<ogra> ...
<ogra> Short summary:
<ogra>  * Lots of fixes went into jasper (out firstboot configuation tool for the preinstalled images) which we could not test yet (needs a successfull image build) there might be additional bugs to come from these.
<ogra>  * A TI ppa apturl icon was added to the default install to make use of the awesome work from mvo to make it easy for users to install the TI maintained addon packages on the omap4 image
<ogra>    (a packagelist is still to come as well as an EULA text and an icon from TI, these will need freeze exceptions).
<ogra>  * TI released it's 3D drivers for omap3 boards under a redistributable license, work has being done by rsalveti to get these packaged and we would really like to see them in the archive before release,
<ogra>    testing (together with linaro) is going on (will likely need a freeze exception for the new packages into uni/multiverse) having these packages might improve the KDE/kubuntu-mobile experience a lot on omap3 BTW.
<ogra>  * Due to bug 633227 we had to revert the use of the full gigabyte on the omap4 images, kernel fixes are being worked on to get full access to all RAM back.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 633227 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu) "instabilities with highmem activated" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/633227
<ogra>  * Massive work is being done by the whole team this week to fix issues with sound on the pandaboard, preferably this should be fixed in the ASoC driver, but if this is not possible we would like to add alsa-lib quirks
<ogra>    (scripts similar to Intel HDA audio under /usr/share/alsa ... potential freeze execptions for alsa-lib, pulse and jasper)
<ogra>  * The FTBFS list on qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs is largely empty for main (armel) openoffice is still on it and some kde packages that are being worked on are there too. doko is working on openoffice currently.
<ogra>  * Bug 605042 is still under investigation how to solve it.
<ogra> ...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 605042 in eglibc (Ubuntu Maverick) "[armel] java fails to start with eglibc-2.12-0ubuntu4" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/605042
<ogra> Spec Status:
<ogra> Entire http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile.html
<ogra> Release http://people.canonical.com/~pitti/workitems/maverick/canonical-mobile-ubuntu-10.10.html
<ogra> ...
<ogra> Remaining specs:
<ogra> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubun
<ogra> grmpf
<ogra> Remaining specs:
<ogra> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-m-omap-edid-autodetection
<ogra> ...
<ogra> 4 Bugs targeted for Final release
<ogra> ...
<ogra> Blocker Bugs:
<ogra> bug 633227
<ogra> bug 637947
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 637947 in linux-ti-omap4 (Ubuntu Maverick) "no sound devices on current ES2.0 boards" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/637947
<ogra> ...
<ogra> Expected serious impact for final release (section did not change, leaving here as a general reminder):
<ogra> We will get the final hardware for OAMP4 only very late in september or even in early october, it might be necessary that the OMAP4 image release gets delayed
<ogra> The above will also likely require late kernel and bootloader package changes and uploads to the archive. since the Hardware does not exist yet it is unprdictable in which amount the impact is.
<ogra> my paste was actually to long this time ... i need to work on that
<skaet> heh,  no worries.
<skaet> for the blocker bugs - any concerns?
<ogra> not yet, we're all working on the sound issueas good as we can
<skaet> fair 'nuf.
<ogra> and TI is working on the mem issue
<ogra> given that we dont have the fully final kernel yet and need a freeze exception for it anyway, all should be fine
<skaet> thanks.  :)
<ogra> i hope we can get all fixes into one upload here
<ogra> done :)
<ogra> (and thanks)
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] MOTU update
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU update
 * skaet wonders if there's anyone here to cover this today?
<skaet> hmm.... guesses not.
<skaet> skipping along then
<skaet> [TOPIC] Linaro Update
<MootBot> New Topic:  Linaro Update
<JamieBennett> Hi Kate. So from the Linaro side.
<JamieBennett> [LINK] http://wiki.linaro.org/Releases/LinaroStatus
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.linaro.org/Releases/LinaroStatus
 * ScottK has just arrived.
<skaet> hi JamieBennett
<JamieBennett> We are looking quite good. Nothing glaring as far as work to push into the release.
 * skaet plans to circle back to ScottK after JamieBennett 
<ScottK> OK
<JamieBennett> Linaro release meeting yesterday -
<JamieBennett> [LINK] http://wiki.linaro.org/Releases/WeeklyReleaseMeeting/2010-09-16
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://wiki.linaro.org/Releases/WeeklyReleaseMeeting/2010-09-16
<JamieBennett> Waiting on a fix from Scott on bug 600359 and most other bugs are either fixed and need verifying or minor changes will be done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 600359 in ureadahead (Ubuntu Maverick) "ureadahead generating oom messages during boot." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/600359
<JamieBennett> Images are being tested more so we may get more bugs found.
<JamieBennett> We actually have more images now due to some changes in the way images are built (hardware packs) that fixed some building bugs.
<JamieBennett> We are also coming up with a policy for Linaro's extra month (Linaro releases 10.11) and SRU's, I'll co-ordinate with you when I have a plan ;)
<JamieBennett> Thats all for Linaro.
<robbiew> JamieBennett: the fix for 600359 is on it's way, should have it next week
<JamieBennett> robbiew: great :)
<ogra> \o/
<ogra> we'Re waiting for so long already !
<skaet> JamieBennett, will talk to you about it on monday
<ogra> thats good news
<JamieBennett> skaet: OK
<skaet> any other questions/comments?
<skaet> thanks JamieBennett
<skaet> ScottK,  how's it look from your perspective?
<ScottK> Not bad.
<robbiew> ogra:  yeah...he was thinking he could provide a much more comprehensive fix, but it kept regressing boot speed...so he plans to just lower the amount of memory ureadahead reserves
<skaet> [TOPIC] MOTU update - take 2
<MootBot> New Topic:  MOTU update - take 2
<ogra> robbiew, sweet
<ScottK> Kubuntu is coming together reasonably well.  We're doing a lot of cherry picking from kdesvn because due to the accelerated release schedule we won't get KDE 4.5.2.
<ScottK> (I figured I'd cover both)
 * skaet nods
<ScottK> Most of the important installer bugs appear to have been addressed.
<ScottK> As a note, Mesa needs an upload to revert the workaround for the clutter problem that was affecting Unity.
<ScottK> (clutter got fixed, but the workaround is still there)
<robbiew> kenvandine: ^^
<kenvandine> yeah
<ScottK> Most of the serious problems we have remaining seem to be X/video driver related, but with the Mesa update things are much improved.
<kenvandine> robbiew, i'll follow up on that
<skaet> thats good to hear.
<robbiew> kenvandine: thnx
<ScottK> kenvandine: There's also a X crash on logout bug (I'll get you the number in a moment) that would be really good to have addressed (I believe the problem is understood)
<kenvandine> ScottK, ok
<kenvandine> lets get it targeted then
<kenvandine> if it isn't already
<ScottK> We have a new KDE bluetooth stack this cycle and we will be the first distro to release with is, so upstream has been very engaged with us.  The should be the best Kubuntu bluetooth experience in approximately forever.
<ScottK> kenvandine: It is.
<ScottK> I just don't have the number handy.
<kenvandine> ok
<ScottK> That's it for Kubuntu.
<skaet> nice about the bluetooth stack.
<skaet> how are things looking on the MOTU side?
<ScottK> kenvandine: It's Bug 628077
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 628077 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (Ubuntu Maverick) "[i865] Crash on logout with KDM" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/628077
<ScottK> Making progress, but FTBFS and NBS still need work.
<kenvandine> oh, and has a patch
<ScottK> The FTBFS actually got worse in the last week.
<kenvandine> ScottK, i'll check on that
<ScottK> kenvandine: Yes.
<ScottK> Thanks.
<ScottK> That's all I have for MOTU.
<skaet> Thanks
<skaet> any plans to get the FTBFS side looking a bit better?
<skaet> help needed?
<ScottK> Just takes people doing the work.
<skaet> heh,  understood.
<ScottK> iulian sent a message to the MOTU ML last week that got some response.
<ScottK> For FTBFS most of the easy ones seem to have been addressed.
<skaet> fair 'nuf.
<skaet> any other questions?
 * skaet looks around for hands up?
<ScottK> I have another topic for AIB.
<ScottK> AOB
<skaet> go ahead
<ScottK> There appears to be some confusion about release team delegations.
<ScottK> In the past, motu-release would delegate powers to certain individuals to ack Universe uploads in specific areas.
<ScottK> AFAIK, we did not do so this time, but one person is continuing to ack as if they had such a delegation even after having been told they don't.
<cjwatson> TBH it feels to me like an oversight that we haven't done the delegations
<ScottK> I would like the situation clarified (If clarification means I'm misunderstanding the situation and they do, then that's fine).
<cjwatson> and maybe it would be better to correct that
<ScottK> I don't have a strong opinion either way.  We seem to be keeping up OK without it, but I mostly want it to be clear.
<ScottK> I think the current situation where we didn't, but someone is acting as if we did is not good.
<ScottK> Since I've been in the middle of an argument over this, I don't want to be the one deciding.
<skaet> agree, from a process perspective this sort of ambiguity isn't good.
<cjwatson> my take is that there are two options: (a) issue delegations (b) issue some kind of reprimand.  which is better for Ubuntu?
<cjwatson> my feeling is (a)
<skaet> +1 on (a)
 * ScottK steps back and lets the others decide.
<cjwatson> I mean, if it were somebody we wouldn't normally have delegated, then it would be (b)
<sistpoty|work> actually, I think robbiew's FF mail added a little bit to the confusion :)
<cjwatson> but since it is somebody we'd normally have delegated, it doesn't seem to make sense to have a big song and dance about it given that they're basically working around something that's our fault
<cjwatson> (albeit in a fairly direct way)
 * sistpoty|work goes for a, but still someone would need to take care to arrange delegations
<skaet> robbiew, thoughts?
 * robbiew notes that his mail was from the wiki...which was stale and is now corrected ;)
<cjwatson> sistpoty|work: F feature or F final?
<robbiew> a
<sistpoty|work> cjwatson: final
<sistpoty|work> (or rather the mail that quoted my mail that listed delegations, or something like that *g*)
<cjwatson> hah, yes, that certainly looks like a delegation
<skaet> sistpoty|work, can you bounce me the mail you're referencing?
<sistpoty|work> I guess the main reason we had no delegations so far for maverick is that noone took care of it yet
<cjwatson> skaet: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2010-September/000758.html
<skaet> cjwatson,  thanks.
<cjwatson> and the link under "universe/multiverse"
<skaet> gotcha.  yeah that looks like delegation.
<cjwatson> anyway, since there's been confusion: unless anyone actually thinks those delegations shouldn't be repeated (is that the case?), they should be reissued for clarity
<cjwatson> I'm guessing some names need to be updated
<skaet> cjwatson, that seems reasonable.
<cjwatson> Firefox should be Chris Coulson nowadays, I think?
<cjwatson> ScottK is on ubuntu-release anyway, re KDE
<cjwatson> I'm not sure about Ubuntu Studio
<cjwatson> the rest look up to date AFAICS
<cjwatson> do we need any kind of vote or is a show of hands or something sufficient?
 * sistpoty|work tries to find delegations for lucid, maybe that might also be good to compare
<sistpoty|work> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2010-March/000040.html
<cjwatson> ah yes, better to have an updated version
<cjwatson> did you ever get confirmations for the unconfirmed entries there?
<charlie-tca> hmm, any chance of getting Lionel Le Folgoc added for Xubuntu?
<sistpoty|work> cjwatson: yes, I think so... there must be final announcement mail, but I still need to find that :)
<cjwatson> charlie-tca: that's in sistpoty|work's most recent link
<cjwatson> anyway, presumably we can take this to #-release out of band?
<skaet> sounds good.
<skaet> any further questions/comments before ending meeting?
<skaet> ScottK,  thanks for raising the issue.
<skaet> going once
<ScottK> No problem.
<skaet> twice
<skaet> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:28.
<skaet> Thanks everyone for the good work over the last week!
<robbiew> thnx skaet
 * skaet heading over to #-release to continue the delegation discussion.
<rompeculos> fuck!!!!!!!
<rompeculos>  waaatzzuuuup nerds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<IdleOne> !ops | rompeculos cursing and nick is also vulgar
<ubottu> rompeculos cursing and nick is also vulgar: Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
<Ubunterito> Hola a todos los ubunteros, soy una persona con muchos animos en trabajar en ubuntu es muy bacano! amo a ubuntu!
<rompeculos> ola muÃ±eca tienes web cam???
<Ubunterito> si agregame, lizalinda3@hotmail.com
<rompeculos> opk si te agrega un grandeygruesa69@gmail.com soy yo
<Ubunterito> ya te agrego linduuuuuu! quien quiere ver-gas o ver-gotas?
<Ubunterito> hablen malditos noobs de mierda
<vish> !es | Ubunterito
<ubottu> Ubunterito: En la mayorÃ­a de canales de Ubuntu se habla sÃ³lo en inglÃ©s. Si busca ayuda en espaÃ±ol o charlar entra en el canal #ubuntu-es. Escribe "/join #ubuntu-es" (sin comillas) y dale a enter.
<rompeculos> tengo un problema no puedo instalar wordpad en ubuntu
<Ubunterito> Hey u suckers pieces of shit!
<vish> !ops
<ubottu> Help! Seveas, Hobbsee, LjL, ompaulafk, Keybuk, mdz, sabdfl, janimo, ogra, mdke, dholbach, or jono
<rompeculos> help me!!! i canÂ´t install wordpad on my ubuntu
<rompeculos> i already installed paint but word pad doesn't work
<Ubunterito> How can I move down my task bar in ubuntu?
<rompeculos> try putting ur finger on ur ass
<Ubunterito> omfg! how to carry it out?
<Ubunterito> ok c u in the hell fuckers!....happy coding!
<Ubunterito> [~XXXChick@p57F43D21.youporn.com] has fucked [Read error: Connection between pussy and cock has failed]
<hggdh> thank you Pici
<vish> yay Pici :)
<Pici> yw
<nigelb> thanks Pici :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-09-18
<RuiOrey> hi
<RuiOrey> i got an update stopped and now everytime i try to update i get this error "unable to fetch http://ppa.launchpad.net/user/ppa-name/ubuntu/dists/lucid/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz "
<RuiOrey> anyone can help me solve this?
<highvoltage> RuiOrey: hi! this is #ubuntu-meeting, the ubuntu town-hall for meetings, you'll probably not find support here, I suggest trying #ubuntu
<RuiOrey> ok
#ubuntu-meeting 2010-09-19
<AbhiJit> hello
<czajkowski> Anyone attending UDS I've updated the wiki to have an attendees page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-N/Attendees
<czajkowski> if you want to let people know your times of arrival so you cna hook up with others for taxis
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-09-12
<roadmr> Hey everyone!
<roadmr> Ready for the Ubuntu Friendly meeting?
<roadmr> #startmeeting Ubuntu Friendly meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep 12 15:00:54 2011 UTC.  The chair is roadmr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<roadmr> Welcome everyone! The official agenda for today is short, but if you have something you'd like to discuss regarding Ubuntu Friendly, we'd be happy to hear about it.
<roadmr> Don't forget to use "o/" if you'd like to comment on something. Also, please follow the convention of using ".." on a separate line when you've finished what you want to say.
<roadmr> We'll go over agenda topics first, so here goes:
<roadmr> #topic Questions about the program posed during Ubuntu Global Jam
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Friendly meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Questions about the program posed during Ubuntu Global Jam
<roadmr> akgraner was kind enough to post a great report of Ubuntu Global Jam, along with a series of questions that came up regarding Ubuntu Friendly.
<roadmr> #link http://akgraner.com/?p=1020
<roadmr> victorp took a minute to reply to most of them earlier today (and yes, checkbox 0.12.6 should be available now), but if some quick clarification is needed on some of those this might be a good opportunity.
<roadmr> guess I'll follow the convention too :
<roadmr> ..
<roadmr> anyone? :)
<roadmr> last chance!
<victorp> going once
<roadmr> looks like the answers are so far OK then :)
<roadmr> I'll o/
<roadmr> I'd just like to say that adding this to the UF FAQ may be worthwhile, akgraner's blog is a fine spot due to her contacts in LUGs
<roadmr> but keeping stuff like this in a central location also makes sense, we probably shouldn't scatter the information around too much, makes it harder to find
<roadmr> ..
<roadmr> Anyway, if more questions pop up or you can think of something to add to this, you're quite welcome to post on the mailing list.
<roadmr> So let's move on!
<roadmr> #topic Any Other Business
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<roadmr> Would you like to discuss anything else today?
<roadmr> nothing? :) nobody?
 * charlie-tca thinks it must be close to a perfect project, now ;)
<roadmr> speak now or forever (or at least until next Monday) hold your peace?
<roadmr> charlie-tca: heheh we welcome praise as well :)
<roadmr> last chance, any takers?
<roadmr> OK, so let's wrap this up then. Remember, you can always speak up on the next meeting, or on the ubuntu-friendly mailing list. We like to get feedback! try the new checkbox! file bugs! give us suggestions!
<roadmr> It was a quick meeting today, still, thanks for being here, do take the System Testing app out for a spin and let us know how useful you think the tests are.
<roadmr> See you next time, Monday September 19th at 15:00 UTC!
<roadmr> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep 12 15:19:14 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-12-15.00.moin.txt
<charlie-tca> roadmr: thanks for chairing that meeting.
<roadmr> charlie-tca: no problem, I did last week too, hope I didn't scare everyone away for today :)
<charlie-tca> heh, if they scare that easy, ...
<jdstrand> hi!
<jjohansen> hey
<jdstrand> let's wait for others to arrive
<sbeattie> hey
<micahg> o/
<mdeslaur> hiya
<tyhicks> Hello
<kees> \o
<jdstrand> let's get started
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep 12 17:04:39 2011 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<kees> hah "#lurk"
<jdstrand> heh
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week (thankfully :P)
<mdeslaur> jdstrand: thanks for covering for me
<jdstrand> heh, np :)
<jdstrand> I am reviewing an embargoed issue
<jdstrand> have miscellaneous P&C tasks
<jdstrand> have patch piloting this week
<jdstrand> and will continue to work with jjohansen on dbus/apparmor
<jjohansen> \o/
<jdstrand> oh, and metrics work items as have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<jdstrand> jjohansen: :)
<jdstrand> kees: you're up
<kees> I'm going to be focusing on training and documentation this week
<kees> working through my list, basically.
<kees> I have some MIRs and patch pilot work today
<kees> that's about it for now. I'll have a blog post with some news later today
<jdstrand> thanks kees
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're next
<mdeslaur> Ah! yes!
<mdeslaur> :)
<mdeslaur> I'm working on cups updates
<mdeslaur> and will probably tackle ffmpeg next
<jdstrand> ah, good :)
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week, although there's nothing in the queue (hint: C'mon community!)
<mdeslaur> and I'll probably be spending some time with kees, there's a few things he wants to show me
<mdeslaur> and...that's it!
<jdstrand> (yeah, the last couple of weeks haven't had a lot of community for me to sponsor)
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: next!
<jdstrand> s/community/community work/
<sbeattie> I'm on triage this week.
<zooko> Hope I'm not interrupting, but I have a community security issue for you.
<sbeattie> I'm also working on openssl.
<jdstrand> zooko: can you bring it up at the end? I'll ping you
<zooko> Ok
<sbeattie> zooko: end should be more than another 5-10 min away
<sbeattie> shouldn't be, that is
<sbeattie> That's pretty much it for me.
<jdstrand> micahg: you're up
<micahg> ok, so I'm still cleaning up after DigiNotar, we're in week 3 of this mess
<micahg> qt4-x11, thunderbird, and chromium (maybe seamonkey at the end of the week)
<micahg> also, the next round of Mozilla builds should be coming soonish, will get them staged as they come
<micahg> I also have patch piloting once chromium is done
<micahg> that's it
<jdstrand> jeez, 3 patch pilots from our team this week...
<jdstrand> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I am still coming up to speed in the new role, but I feel like I can put the finishing touches on patching and testing of a mutt fix I've been working on
<mdeslaur> \o/
<tyhicks> I've found a bug in mutt (possibly a regression from the fix mentioned above) while doing initial testing and I'll get that fixed
<tyhicks> Then I plan on taking ownership of another item in the CVE queue and/or learning the triaging process
<kees> nice :)
<tyhicks> In the rest of the time, I've still got a small eCryptfs kernel maintainer backlog to get through
<tyhicks> That's it
<sbeattie> tyhicks: \o/
<jdstrand> tyhicks: sounds great :)
<tyhicks> thanks, all :)
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/monotone.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ember.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/policycoreutils.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/citadel.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xcftools.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> zooko: what's up?
<zooko> The Tahoe-LAFS team has found a security flaw in Tahoe-LAFS which is present in all versions included in Ubuntu Lucid and newer.
<zooko> We have a fix patch, announcement text, docs, etc. but haven't divulged details to anyone yet.
<jdstrand> zooko: have you filed a bug with Ubuntu yet?
<zooko> The impact is moderate -- it could allow a sufficiently motivated malicious person to delete files but not to read or alter them.
<zooko> No -- I'll do that within an hour or so.
<jdstrand> zooko: thanks for the heads up. please file it at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tahoe-lafs/+filebug and check the 'This bug is a security vulnerability' box
<jdstrand> zooko: the bug will be sent to us and will be private
<jdstrand> zooko: we can coordinate via the bug then
<zooko> Okay.
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> alright
<jdstrand> kees, mdeslaur, sbeattie, micahg, tyhicks, jjohansen, zooko: thanks!
<mdeslaur> thanks jdstrand!
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep 12 17:29:12 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-12-17.04.moin.txt
<zooko> :-)
<micahg> thanks jdstrand
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<tyhicks> jdstrand: thank you!
 * stgraber waves
 * cody-somerville waves.
 * micahg is here
 * geser waves
<cody-somerville> bdrung, persia, Laney, geser: ping
<bdrung> pong
 * bdrung waves back.
<micahg> Laney sent apologies
<stgraber> and cyphermox asked us to postpone his application till our next meeting
<cody-somerville> Great. Any volunteers for chair?
<stgraber> #startmeeting Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep 12 19:04:35 2011 UTC.  The chair is stgraber. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<stgraber> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review of previous action items
<cody-somerville> That is slightly obnoxious new behavior, lol.
<stgraber> only action was for Laney to start a thread on ubuntu-devel
<stgraber> I guess we'll skip that one as he isn't around
<stgraber> #topic Administrative Matters
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Developer Membership Board meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Administrative Matters
<stgraber> as Laney sent to the list, the results of the poll are available at: http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/results.pl?id=E_cdfc460c74495b75
<stgraber> with micahg being the winner, congrats!
<micahg> thanks stgraber
<geser> micahg: welcome
<micahg> thanks geser
<cody-somerville> I move we accept the results of the poll and forward a request to the TB to have micahg added to the DMB.
<geser> who can add micahg to the private DMB list? I forgot who has the password now
<stgraber> +1
<stgraber> maybe I have it, let me quickly check
<stgraber> anyone who's willing to take the action of e-mailing the TB to get micahg added to the team?
<ScottK> Congratulations micahg.
<micahg> thanks ScottK
<geser> I'll mail the TB
<cody-somerville> stgraber, I recommend we vote to confirm micahg as our recommendation to the TB
<stgraber> cody-somerville: ok
<geser> cody-somerville: why vote?
<ejat> congrate micahg
<geser> cody-somerville: the dev community voted micahg and we have to accept it
<cody-somerville> Because the poll wasn't conducted by the TB. We don't have the authority to add someone to the DMB ourselves. It has to be done by the TB and for us to make a recommendation as a body we need to put it to vote.
 * ScottK doesn't recall such voting before.
<micahg> geser: generally the DMB confirms the vote FWIR
<stgraber> btw, I just found the DMB mailing list password ;)
<micahg> for reference: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/02/14/%23ubuntu-meeting.html#t12:16
<micahg> so, no vote was done last time, just a "verbal" confirmation
<cody-somerville> See, this is why we're so glad to have you join us micahg :)
<micahg> heh, I come to serve :)
<bdrung> micahg: then you will suffer ;)
<geser> I hope the TB would speak up when we ask them to add micahg if they have any doubts about the voting process
<cody-somerville> I'll leave it to the chair to decide if we have an official vote or not. I think we all know the outcome anyhow as no one has spoken any objections thus far.
<stgraber> #agreed micahg is the winner of the CIVS poll
<stgraber> not sure if the bot understood that one :)
<cody-somerville> :-)
<stgraber> #action geser to e-mail the TB with the result of the poll
<meetingology> ACTION: geser to e-mail the TB with the result of the poll
<bdrung> :)
<stgraber> #action stgraber to add micahg to the mailing-list once TB has added him to the team
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to add micahg to the mailing-list once TB has added him to the team
<stgraber> anything else we need to do to get micahg on board?
<cody-somerville> We should probably ask the TB to remove Morgan, eh?
<bdrung> stgraber: it's #agree not #agreed
<bdrung> ups, both should be possible
<geser> cody-somerville: will add it to my mail to the TB
 * bdrung welcomes micahg, too.
<micahg> thanks bdrung
<stgraber> cody-somerville: indeed. I'll remove her from the mailing-list when I add micahg
<stgraber> jono: around?
<jono> hi stgraber
<stgraber> hi jono
<jono> howdy
<micahg> ISTR jono suggesting waiting for all the boards to come together in a single meeting
<stgraber> apparently we're already done with our agenda for this meeting as cyphermox asked us to wait till our next meeting to look at his application :)
<jono> I figured we may want to evaluate the report when we have the DMB and TB together
<jono> we would likely need a joint meeting anyway
<jono> so I thought it would be more efficient to organize that single meeting
<cody-somerville> Is the TB really required for an initial discussion?
<jono> cody-somerville, well, the topic is developer process governance, so I think they should be involved
<stgraber> trying to get all the TB and the DMB attending the same meeting seems quite tricky, especially when we're getting closer and closer to release, also, I don't know if all the e-mails are still stuck in the TB's moderation queue but I haven't seen any activity from the TB following your e-mail
<jono> feel free to discuss the report now though if you wish
<jono> stgraber, indeed
<bdrung> jono: bug in page 3? 81% are MOTUs? 81% + 2 * 32% > 100%
<jono> bdrung, people could choose multiple options
<jono> so be a motu and a core-dev for example
<bdrung> ah, ok.
<stgraber> oh, btw :)
<cody-somerville> jono, Yes but shouldn't there be a set of recommendations developed before going to the TB? Otherwise we'll just be discussing the data and not necessarily actions that can be taken based off of said data.
<stgraber> #link http://ubuntuone.com/0L7YnAHC0MRC2cHgLlq4n5
<jono> cody-somerville, then feel free to discuss it now
<jono> I am flexible
<jono> :-)
<cody-somerville> jono, Do you think there are any areas of concern that your survey has uncovered or confirmed?
<jono> cody-somerville, sure, see the last page
<jono> so, do we want to have this conversation now?
<bdrung> IMHO yes
<cody-somerville> Yes.
<stgraber> yes
<geser> jono: I guess you have no data about the time the applicants expected to process their application and the time it really needed, right? It would be interesting to know if it really took so long or the expectations where so short.
<jono> ok happy to discuss now then
<jono> geser, unfortunately not
<jono> so in the report, take a look at the conclusions on the last pager
<jono> I think those can be good points of discussion
<jono> a common theme was documentation of the process and expectations
<micahg> jono: should we go point by point?
<jono> micahg, sure lets do that
<geser> I completely agree that PPU and package sets are complete underdocumented
<jono> Better Document the Per-Package Uploader Process â there was significant issues reported over the clarity and expectations of the Per-Package Uploader process. A
<jono> review of the documentation and some clarity could help resolve this issue.
<micahg> I don't think this is such a problem, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers#Per-package_Uploaders
<micahg> it looks like it's been updated
<jono> micahg, maybe folks have either not seen that page or don't understand the content?
<micahg> jono: that could be, people might not know where to go to see that
<jono> the PPU process was the primary area of confusion in the survey
<cody-somerville> FWIW, I think the survey appears highly positive.
<jono> cody-somerville, totally
<jono> these are just fixing little bumps in the road
<jono> it seems like the MOTU side of things is pretty solid
<micahg> jono: hmm, it's linked from the main DMB page
<jono> when someone wants to be a dev, where do we point them?
<micahg> I'd be interested in knowing where people are currently looking
<jono> a place for them to learn about what core-dev, motu, and ppu is
<micahg> I generally send people here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers
<stgraber> my personal opinion on the matter is that PPU and package sets are mostly confusing because they are invisible. People can't easily know who can upload what and in some cases even what they have the right to upload
<jono> that page is way too busy
<bdrung> that was my primary wiki page when i applied for upload rights
<jono> I think maybe some work on that page could help simplify things
<jono> it is a bit of information overload
<micahg> jono: do you think sub pages for each of the types would be better with just a short paragraph for each on the main page?
<jono> micahg, that is my hunch
<bdrung> and it lacks an picture that shows the difference between the different positions
<stgraber> micahg: +1
<ScottK> I've also seen people apply for PPU that clearly knew VERY little about Ubuntu.  I think one reason the feedback was more negative for PPU was there are a larger fraction of applicants that apply way too early.
<jono> micahg, more along the lines of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<jono> ScottK, how do you feel we can encourage folks to apply at the right time?
 * micahg hasn't noticed a lack of people being told when to apply
<ScottK> Back when I applied to be MOTU the general (unwritten) rule was apply when someone told you to.
<stgraber> ScottK: indeed, at last one case comes to mind (packages weren't even in the archive)
<jono> ScottK, but is that scalable?
<jono> that replies on people noticing other folks' work and advising them to apply
<micahg> I had the same experience as ScottK for MOTU and for core-dev as well (application pending soon :))
<stgraber> jono: as we encourage people going through sponsors before applying for upload irghts, I think it does
<jono> there is another possible option here
<stgraber> jono: people usually tend to poke the same sponsor for most of their uploads (at least that's what's happening to me), so it's pretty easy for the sponsor to know when they are ready
<highvoltage> I'm only catching the latter part of the conversation so I might be missing something, but there's an Ubuntu Open Week coming up, wouldn't it be nice to have a session on the differences between PPU, MOTU, Core-dev, etc and when it's appropriate to apply to each?
<geser> ScottK: doesn't this look too exclusive from the outside? (you can only join if a current dev member tell you)
<jono> I asked dholbach to produce some graphs outlining developer contributions across a timeframe, maybe we could ask the DMB to review these graphs and evaluate folks based upon significant and dustained contributions
<ScottK> I think that's overkill.
<jono> ScottK, why?
<ScottK> jono: Sorry - I was replying to highvoltage.
<jono> oh I see
<jono> np
<highvoltage> ScottK: ok
<micahg> geser: I don't think ScottK is saying that's the only way, but rather for most applicants, that's just what happens
<jono> dholbach and I are using the graphs he created to identify those doing good work and ensure they get mentorship
<jono> the same could be applied to identifying potential candidates for DMB review
<ScottK> jono: How do you graph "good work"?
<micahg> jono: singling out people for mentorship sounds good, I think for upload rights though, people need to take some initiative to get them
<jono> ScottK, well, it graphs approved uploads over a period of time - so it should significant and sustained
<geser> micahg: I know but do you believe that newcomers will understand it the same way as ScottK intended it?
<jono> it would require a little more evaluation
<cody-somerville> jono, I think improving the DMB's access to data like that would be highly positive.
<jono> so let me ask a question
<micahg> jono: also, if you're doing mentorship, when the mentors feel candidates ready, they'll push them appropriate towards an application
<micahg> geser: well, if it's worded properly :)
<jono> today people can either (1) apply themselves for a dev role or (2) we can encourage people to only apply if they a dev recommends they do
<ScottK> jono: OK.  I think that sort of thing is a lot more useful for member applications than developer applications.
<jono> do you folks believe we should optimize the process around (2) ?
<cody-somerville> No.
<jono> micahg, agreed
<ScottK> I would say that they should ask people who've been sponsoring them.
<cody-somerville> and get endorsements, lol
<ScottK> They don't necessarily need to wait or get permission, but they should ask first.
<micahg> no, I think if the mentoring pieces are in place, the application encouragement will come automatically
<jono> well it seems the issues highlighted in the report are not to do with when or how people apply
<cody-somerville> I think the bigger problem is that we don't really have a lot of people applying who aren't working on Ubuntu as a part of their job.
<jono> it is a knowledge of how the process and expectations work
<micahg> cody-somerville: +1
<ScottK> jono: I think that's a side effect of people applying too early.
<jono> cody-somerville, why is that a problem?
<jono> ScottK, not sure I agree - the docs could better communicate when people should apply
<micahg> ScottK: +1
<ScottK> jono: Certainly.  That's always the case, but I don't think that's the primary issue.
<cody-somerville> jono, because our developer community needs to grow and we shouldn't expect Canonical to be the driving force behind that by hiring more folks.
<jono> cody-somerville, I don't think it matters where people work, it matters that they are good developers
<cody-somerville> jono, And its highly unlikely that Canonical is able to hire ALL the best and brightest.
<cody-somerville> We should look to attract others from other parts of the wider community to contribute
<jono> cody-somerville, <jono> cody-somerville, I don't think it matters where people work, it matters that they are good developers
<jono> :-)
<micahg> jono: of course it shouldn't matter, I think cody-somerville was just commenting on who's applying recently (i.e. we don't have very many non-canonifolk)
<jono> right
<ScottK> jono: If Ubuntu development is seen to be a predominately Canonical club, then it will hurt Ubuntu.
<cody-somerville> Right. The problem I'm trying to highlight is we're not seeing growth in our ranks except that done by Canonical hiring more folks.
<jono> ScottK, of course, but working at Canonical is not a reason for someone to have a more challenging application process than someone else
<cody-somerville> jono, No one is suggesting that.
<jono> anyway, I think we digress
<ScottK> jono: No.  I didn't say that.
<ScottK> Please don't put words in my mouth.
<jono> ScottK, I am not putting words in your mouth
<ScottK> Where did I saw Canonical should have a more challenging application process?
<ScottK> saw/say
<jono> ScottK, I never said you did say that
<jono> I was making a general point
<jono> particularly as this has been a point of contention in the community in the past
<ScottK> The why were you making it at me?
<jono> ScottK, I wasn't
<jono> ScottK, relax, it wasn't focused at you
<jono> it was a general point
<cody-somerville> jono, Canonical applicants do not have any harder of a time than anyone else... except there is hardly anyone else
<ScottK> An odd way to make it, but whatever.
<jono> cody-somerville, good stuff :-)
<jono> so getting back to how devs engage in the process
<jono> it sounds like there is a feeling that devs should be recommended to apply
<jono> as a general rule
<cody-somerville> Yes, we require all applicants to have endorsements from other developers.
<stgraber> it's the recommended way, yes. As that means someone will already have given them tips for their wiki page, very likely a testimonial too, so they're pretty much ready for a meeting with the DMB
<jono> do we feel we could improve the docs in recommending this approach
<micahg> well, I think this is more about how it happens, than a general rule, but all applicants do need endorsements
<jono> so we discourage folks to apply without a recommendation from another dev
<jono> right
<cody-somerville> I don't think I've seen any applications that lack endorsements.
<cody-somerville> I think we need to improve the documentation for the endorsers
<jono> so the survey indicates that there is confusion over elements of the process and expectations, how do you folks feel we could improve that?
<ScottK> But do they tend to be strong endorsement or more like "they asked me and I don't want to upset them, so I'll say something"?
<stgraber> ScottK: we get both, but ideally I wouldn't like to see the later at all...
<jono> I think what might be useful is for us to restructure the wiki docs and break them out across pages, make it a little easier to parse
<jono> I would be happy to ask Daniel to do this
<micahg> jono: well, I think if we could get more specifics on what people are doing that's causing confusion, then we can evaluate what needs to be done to resolve the issue
<micahg> or what's specifically perceived as confusing, like flowchart style, that could help the understanding
<cody-somerville> stgraber, ScottK: Right. We need to better document what it means for someone to endorse someone. We need to clarify that they should only endorse strongly and that they're putting their reputation on the line.
<jono> micahg, I don't think we are going to be able to get that level of granularity, but I think the survey provides some themes
<jono> e.g. expectations for cor-dev gets some lower ratings - so maybe we can better explain what is expecting of being a core dev and the assessment process
<ScottK> cody-somerville: I agree with that in theory, but there's a lot of resistance to writing anything negative on an application.
<stgraber> jono: I'm sure that'd be a good start. Also writting something for the sponsors/endorsers would be good, basically stating that if you leave an endorsement it's because you think they're ready to get the upload rights and that you can basically blindly sponsor their uploads, not a "they've poked me a lot the last few weeks and so they're pretty active in the community"
<stgraber> cody-somerville: agreed
<jono> stgraber, agreed
<jono> ok, so it sounds like we have two possible actions:
<stgraber> ScottK: just not writting anything would be a good start :)
<jono>  * restructure the wiki docs to be easier to reads
<ScottK> stgraber: Agreed.
<jono>  * restructure the wiki docs to be easier to read
<jono>  * provided documentation for how to endorse someone
<cody-somerville> ScottK, Negative feedback shouldn't go on the application IMHO. We need to find another way to handle that while still being transparent.
<jono> I will ask Daniel to do the former, would someone volunteer to write the endorsement doc?
<cody-somerville> I'm happy to write that up
<jono> thanks cody-somerville
<cody-somerville> along with some other stuff about being prepared
<micahg> cody-somerville: yes, this issue of negative feedback has been brought up before, it was suggested to maybe use devel-permissions for that
<ScottK> cody-somerville: Why not?
<jono> quick q
<ScottK> I think if someone feels strongly that someone is not ready to be a developer that they should be willing to say so.
<jono> so in terms of the recommended process of folks getting a recommending from a dev of how to apply, do we agree that we should make this clearer in the docs?
<stgraber> #action jono to ask Daniel to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers to be easier to read
<meetingology> ACTION: jono to ask Daniel to update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers to be easier to read
<jono> (and ensure they have plenty of testimonials)
<stgraber> #action cody-somerville to write some documentation on how to endorse someone
<meetingology> ACTION: cody-somerville to write some documentation on how to endorse someone
<jono> thanks stgraber
<cody-somerville> jono, I think its already pretty clear. As I said, hardly see anyone without any endorsements at all.
<jono> cody-somerville, ok sounds good
<jono> well I have a meeting in a few mins, so I am going to need to run
<jono> lets focus on those two actions and maybe get together at the next DMB meeting
<cody-somerville> ScottK, That can be more difficult when it's someone you work with or even worse work for
<jono> sound ok?
<cody-somerville> Yup
<ScottK> cody-somerville: I think it's reasonable to have a private channel for exceptional cases, but those should be exceptional.
<stgraber> jono: sounds good, I'll add that to our agenda for the next meeting (both actions and the fact we need to continue our discussion)
<bdrung> jono: maybe one sentence about it. ask your sponsor if you are not sure weather  you are ready for applying
<jono> thanks stgraber
<cody-somerville> ScottK, People don't like to be negative though. And I'd rather get the feedback then not.
<jono> bdrung, sound good
<jono> thanks cody-somerville for working on the action
<jono> bye folks
<micahg> jono: thanks for coming
<cody-somerville> ScottK, I think public objection should be carried heavier than private objections though (besides in exceptional circumstances).
<jono> thanks micahg
<ScottK> cody-somerville: I agree with that.  I think the fact that good and feedback is important needs better communication.
<stgraber> anything else on that topic for now or should we get the wiki updated and continue discussing it at our next meeting when jono is around?
<micahg> well, I wanted to discuss PPU along the lines of one of Laney's e-mails
<stgraber> micahg: sure, let me quickly check if there's another meeting in -meeting as we're already past our reserved allocation
<micahg> err, I meant package set, not PPU
<stgraber> seems like we're good, no planned meetings after ours
<bdrung> while discussing about the process: we could use bug report for managing the applications instead of letting the applicant add themselves on our wiki page.
<micahg> I think having a wiki page is good as you end up with a clear presentation in the end as opposed to a bug
<geser> hmm, does not being a developer count as a bug that needs fixing? :)
<stgraber> I also like having everything in the right order on one page, it's easier when chairing the meeting. Also, although it doesn't mean we have to do it like that, all other boards do it using a wiki page :)
<bdrung> a bug has the advantage of different statuses and you could set a milestone. you could reopen a bug for a deferred application.
<micahg> bdrung: a wikipage is versatile, you can do whatever you want with it :)
<geser> and teach the bug triagers to leave those bugs alone
 * micahg certainly doesn't need another set of bugs
<bdrung> geser: it would be a separate project owned by the dmb
<bdrung> developers are familiar with bug reports.
<stgraber> I'm not against changing the layout of the agenda a bit to better work with cases where we vote by e-mail and for people who ask us to wait till our next meeting (rather than have to remember it when chairing the meeting), but I don't think using bugs is a good idea
<stgraber> #agreed continue discussion on Ubuntu Developer Survey Report with jono at our next meeting
<bdrung> it seems that i am the only one who likes the idea of lp bugs. so i am dropping this idea.
<stgraber> micahg: do we want to discuss package sets now or should we wait till our next meeting where we may might have Laney around?
<stgraber> as in, do you think there are actions we can take now on that subject?
<bdrung> another idea for reducing the waiting time: do a weekly meeting. we had meeting that took more than one hour. having weekly meeting would reduce risk to need longer. if there is no item on the list for one meeting, we could cancel it the day before.
<micahg> well, it's about developing the process and agreeing on it, so I don't think there's really any actions that could happen before a vote unless you'd like me to write up a proposal before the next meeting
<stgraber> bdrung: well, we're already having issues getting together every two weeks ;) I think we'd be fine with the load if we can make sure to have quorum at every meeting, if that becomes a problem, we may switch to weekly meeting then, sounds reasonable?
<stgraber> #topic Reduce bureaucracy around packagesets
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<bdrung> stgraber: yes. having a weekly meeting leads to a quorum every two weeks too. ;)
<stgraber> bdrung: hehe, I meant, if we indeed get quorum every two weeks and we still have too many applicants to fit in our one hour slot, then we should consider switching to weekly meeting.
<bdrung> agreed
<stgraber> bdrung: for now I think we only accumulated backlog because quite a few of us couldn't make it to the "early" meeting
<geser> stgraber: have we any written documentation about the process of adding and removing packages to package sets or even the creation of a package set?
<stgraber> bdrung: not sure what's that status on the doodle, would have to poke Laney and see if we can change that meeting time
<stgraber> geser: I'm not sure. The way it usually worked so far is that people ask for PPU to a bunch of packages and the DMB then ask them to ask for a package set
<micahg> geser: that's the issue I wanted to bring up :)
<stgraber> Ideally I'd like the list of all package sets to be easy to find on the wiki with a page for each of them containing the current package list (unless the package set is dynamically generated from a seed)
<stgraber> as well as the reason for its creation and the rule to update it (anything that's bazaar related for example)
<micahg> stgraber: I think that would be better served as an Ubuntuwire page running a script than a static wiki page
<micahg> at least for the list,  the other pieces could go on the wiki
<bdrung> or having the list in a bzr branch?
<stgraber> micahg: for the current list of packages, agreed but I still want to have on the same page, what team is linked to the package set (when we have a matching team), the reason for the package set and the rule for updating it
<micahg> bdrung: again, that requires more work for the updater
<micahg> stgraber: agreed
<stgraber> bdrung: the list can be queried from the LP API
<stgraber> bdrung: python edit_acl.py query -P bzr -S oneiric
<stgraber> micahg: can you setup a script that'll list all the existing package sets for all supported ubuntu releases? just the output of edit_acl.py for each of them would be nice.
<bdrung> stgraber: i know. i was thinking about the rules that is used as basis, e.g. containing "bzr-*" for the bzr package set
<stgraber> micahg: ideally refreshed daily and available somewhere public so we can link to it from the wiki
<micahg> I think geser has had more luck that I with the API
<stgraber> geser: can you do that then? :)
 * micahg could do it, just not before the next meeting
<stgraber> bdrung: I think a bzr branch would make sense for cases where we can pretty much automate the generation of the package sets, so we can write a script to check if a package set is up to date and give us the list of what's missing if it's not (I don't wnat the script to just do the change ;))
<stgraber> bdrung: I'd still like the general rule to be written on the wiki so people can easily find it and understand it
<bdrung> stgraber: agreed on that
<geser> micahg: I can help you with that if you want as I'm not sure when I'm able to find time to do it myself
<stgraber> hmm, seems like we lost geser :)
<stgraber> oh, no, he's back :)
<micahg> geser: ok, maybe we can get it done by UDS then
<stgraber> I just had a quick look at the API and I think I can get something running pretty quickly
<stgraber> so I'm happy to take the action ;)
<micahg> stgraber: there are already some ubuntuwire pages for packagesets as well: qa.ubuntuwire.org/mdt/mozilla.html
<stgraber> #action stgraber to get the list of all package sets and their content somewhere online
<meetingology> ACTION: stgraber to get the list of all package sets and their content somewhere online
<stgraber> micahg: ah cool, I'll probably link to that then. I'm just planning on getting the list of all package sets, their owner and content, for version numbers and bugs, I'm more than happy to add links :)
<stgraber> anything else on package sets for this meeting?
<micahg> stgraber: wgrant set those up
<micahg> well, we need a process for adding and/or removing packages from a packageset
<stgraber> removing is a bit tricky, for adding, so far I've just done it if it matches the initial reason for the package set (and sent an e-mail to the DMB mailing list)
<stgraber> in most cases I think we want package sets to match some criteria that can be checked from a script and so a simple poke on IRC should be enough to have one of us update the list
<micahg> right, we should have a documented process, for instance, I was filing bugs to have packages added to the mozilla packageset before, I don't believe this to be the proper way to do this unless we're involving the archive admins since the DMB/TB don't generally have a bug workflow
<stgraber> micahg: right. Keeping your example, we should have the mozilla packageset properly defined (as containing all of firefox, thunderbird, xul, extensions, ... whatever is appropriate) and then any other request we get for it that match that get automatically approved
<stgraber> if it's not (new mozilla product for example), then it should be discussed and approved at a DMB meeting
<geser> stgraber: IIRC the mozilla PS is defined through a (build-)dependency
<stgraber> that's I think mostly how package sets have been maintained so far (both the DMB and TB maintained ones) and I think it makes sense to continue that way, but have it documented
<stgraber> geser: even better then, that's easy to check for ;)
<micahg> right, makes sense, something outside the defined guidelines needs approval at the meeting
<micahg> and those defined guidelines should be listed in the initial e-mail to devel-permissions with the approval (in addition to being on the wiki) so there's a record of what they were when approved
<geser> a central place to look up the definition of a package set would really help, currently one has to look up the meeting log to check what exactly got approved
<stgraber> I hope that once we have the list up somewhere and some documentation on the wiki for the existing package sets, that'll make things clearer for both uploaders and for us
<stgraber> micahg: indeed
<micahg> as for workflow for adding, I was thinking an e-mail to devel-permissions requesting the change?
<micahg> I think Laney mentioned something similar
<geser> works for me
<stgraber> micahg: yep, that sounds good. Also making sure whoever updates the package sets e-mail the DMB and/or -permissions so that we know why a packageset has been changed and what got added
<micahg> Laney's thoughts are mentioned here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/technical-board/2011-September/001077.html
<stgraber> cody-somerville: hey again, want me to copy/paste you what you missed?
<cody-somerville> stgraber, Please.
<micahg> stgraber: yep, makes sense as long it's not being handled by the archive admins
<micahg> actually, scratch that
<micahg> makes sense period, AA promotions have a bug filed for tracking
<stgraber> cody-somerville: http://paste.ubuntu.com/687883/
<stgraber> cody-somerville: added a bit more as you left with a ping timeout
<stgraber> micahg: in theory we should be able to update the package sets ourselves, it's unfortunately not always the case and sometimes we need to ask the TB to do it
<stgraber> micahg: but I don't think we ever need to work with the archive admins as package sets are unrelated to components
<micahg> stgraber: well, once the rules are defined, why shouldn't it be an archive admin task?
<geser> which non-seed based PS are TB owned?
<stgraber> geser: I think kernel was one I couldn't modify
<stgraber> micahg: no because they can't do it, they aren't the owner of the package set, the DMB or the TB is
<micahg> stgraber: that's a technical issue
<geser> the process for changing a package set owner is no fun
<stgraber> micahg: indeed, though I guess it currently makes sense it goes through the DMB as we're the ones getting the request for PS update anyway. If we notice we don't do it quickly enough, then we probably should consider moving it to the archive admins and adding that to their todolist (if they agree to do it ;))
<micahg> again, a technical issue
<micahg> stgraber: that's a workflow issue, those requests could be directed to the AAs through bugs if that's appropriate (just like requesting removals from the archive)
<micahg> the question is who should really be doing the work
<micahg> we should definitely have a workflow for ourselves in the meantime, but maybe keep in mind what the longterm goal for this should be
<stgraber> I see package sets as the same thing as PPU except it affects a larger amount of people, so as it still has to do with upload rights, I think it's appropriate for the DMB to handle it
<micahg> stgraber: well, PPU has no rules defining the set, packageset does
<micahg> why is it different than components
<stgraber> (or the TB for the seed based ones)
<micahg> once the rules are set, it's just making sure the package in question follows the rules of the set (same as whether a package from Debian should go in universe instead of multiverse)
<stgraber> micahg: my personal point of view is that either we need the package set changes reviewed and in such case I'd like the DMB to do it or we have clear enough rules that they can be scripted and ran in a cron job
<stgraber> anyway, for the time being, I think we can start by documenting our package sets and continue this discussion at our next meeting, sounds reasonable?
<micahg> stgraber: yes, sounds good
<stgraber> (we're getting dangerously close to the 2 hours mark and I still have things to do this afternoon ;))
 * micahg has plenty to do as well
<stgraber> #agreed start documenting package sets and continue discussion about our package set management workflows at our next meeting
<stgraber> #topic Select a chair for the next meeting
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<stgraber> any volunteer?
<micahg> o/
<stgraber> thanks micahg
<stgraber> #action micahg to chair our next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: micahg to chair our next meeting
<stgraber> #topic AOB
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<stgraber> anything else?
<bdrung> no
<stgraber> perfect :)
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep 12 20:52:53 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-12-19.04.moin.txt
<stgraber> thanks everyone for attending!
<micahg> sorry for talking everyone's ear off :)
<micahg> thanks stgraber
<micahg> stgraber: just to confirm, next meeting is 14:00 UTC on sept 26?
<stgraber> micahg: glad to have you on board, hope to get TB confirmation soon so we can have you talk on our mailing-list too :)
<bdrung> micahg: yes
<micahg> stgraber: thanks
<micahg> bdrung: thanks
<bdrung> i have updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/NextMeeting which will be shown on the main page
<stgraber> bdrung: thanks
<bdrung> showing more than the next meeting time gives the applicants more choices for when they want to attend
<Laney> erk
<micahg> Laney: ?
<stgraber> Laney: any problem? :)
<Laney> I think sets should be DMB owned and managed. And I'm not sure that you could script most of them. As for where they should be documented, a project seems overkill. I was thinking of a wiki page as a lightweight solution. Or, as each set is linked to a Launchpad team, the description there.
<stgraber> Laney: yep, I'm going to have a script online on people.canonical.com (as I can run something with cron there) that will just dump the list of package sets and their content. Then have a wiki page for each of them pointing there with who owns them, if there's a team linked to them and what was the reason for its creation.
<stgraber> I think that's what we need for now, we can always try to automate more later when we feel it's needed.
<Laney> they'll always have a team, by policy
<Laney> so I think that might be a good place to document the definition of that particular set
<Laney> if the script is just to enumerate the sets, that's fine
<stgraber> yep, that's what I'm working on
<stgraber> Laney: I guess we'll need to fix some package sets, I can't find a team for the package set "utouch"
<Laney> yes
<Laney> luckily we can fix that since it is dmb owned
<stgraber> indeed
<Laney> you can make ~ubuntu-utouch-uploaders and add chase to it, then swap the packageset membership
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-09-13
<Destine> Hi.
<head_victim_defy> Good evening all.
<head_victim_defy> I'm on my phone so apologies if I'm slow or sending typos
<ejat> head_victim_defy: :)
<head_victim_defy> Gday. So have any of the applicants shown yet?
<ejat> shani ? ubuntuku ?
<ejat> sadeq , TeTeT ?
<Destine> ejat, haven't found anyone.
<ejat> Destine: ;(
<Destine> ejat, do they know that we will have a meeting today?
 * ejat calling one of the candidate
<ejat> Destine: apogee is coming ..
<ejat> only we 3 ?
<Destine> ejat, I guess so.
<ejat> need to find another 1 to fill the quorum ..
<ejat> elky: ?
<head_victim_defy> I propose we have a volunteer contact all the applicants by mail as suggested on the mailing list. Make them aware of the next meeting a as there hasn't ben any scheduled in a while
<ejat> head_victim_defy: i agreed ..
<Destine> ejat, agreed.
<ejat> since the wiki page also not up2date
<ejat> they havent notice .
<head_victim_defy> I don't mind doing that over the next few days if no one else shows up tonight
<ApOgEE> hi all
<ejat> ApOgEE: welcome ..
<ejat> head_victim_defy: thanks ..
<Destine> ApOgEE, Hi.
 * ejat pokes elky
<ApOgEE> hi Destine
<Destine> ejat, elky was in the Regional Membership Board when I was applying for membership. That was long time ago.
<ejat> Destine: yeah .. i know .. i think need to find other regional people to help us to start the meeting ..
<head_victim_defy> hmmm any other board members around that can fill in to make quorum?
 * Destine board members plz...
<czajkowski> I'm here if needed what's up ?
<Destine> czajkowski, we are calling for board members... only 3 has come.
<czajkowski> Destine: I'm on EMEA
<ejat> czajkowski: mind to help us
<head_victim_defy> Okay can someone on a real pc chair please?
<czajkowski> ejat: yup sure
<ejat> czajkowski: mind to chair ? :)
<czajkowski> ejat: sorry pn the phone also
<czajkowski> your board someone from your team should chair
<head_victim_defy> Okay I will if need be
<ApOgEE> hi czajkowski
<ApOgEE> hi head_victim_defy
<head_victim_defy> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep 13 10:16:36 2011 UTC.  The chair is head_victim_defy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<head_victim_defy> #topic apogee's membership application
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: apogee's membership application
<head_victim_defy> As the only one present lets start with apogee
<ejat> ApOgEE: mind to intro your self
<czajkowski> wiki page?
<ApOgEE> Hi all, my name is Muhammad Fauzilkamil Bin Zainuddin from Malaysia
<ApOgEE> my wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApOgEE
<ejat> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ApOgEE
<ApOgEE> I've been actively helping Ubuntu Malaysia LoCo team since 2008
<Destine> ApOgEE, I like the shirts you designed. :)
<ApOgEE> Thanks Destine
<czajkowski> nice detailed wiki page ApOgEE
<elky> Hi, I'm here now
<head_victim_defy> Awesome wiki page
<ApOgEE> I'm preparing new LoCo t-shirt for the upcoming OnericOcelot launch party
<head_victim_defy> Makes it hard to ask questions
<ApOgEE> I'm sorry, I didn't prepare much for this meeting. This is my working hour and I'm in the office right now
<ejat> i can testify what ApOgEE written on his wiki ..
<czajkowski> ApOgEE: Can I ask with all your events happening in your team why you don't use the LD for your events http://loco.ubuntu.com/teams/ubuntu-my
<ApOgEE> my blog is http://coderstalk.blogspot.com and http://artofapogee.blogspot.com where sometimes I use them to spread the words about ubuntu and FOSS Softwares
<ejat> czajkowski: thats what we lack of .. we (ubuntu-my) previously havent full utilize the LD .. will update there a.s.ap
<czajkowski> ApOgEE: what will becoming an Ubuntu member mean to you ?
<ApOgEE> czajkowski: actually i'm trying to become official ubuntu member
<czajkowski> ApOgEE: yes that's what I asked
<ApOgEE> to encourage other newbies in our loco
<ApOgEE> to get serious
<czajkowski> ok
<czajkowski> thanks
<head_victim_defy> Anyone else have questions?
<czajkowski> nope
<head_victim_defy> Okay I'll put it to the vote. Only board members vote please
<ApOgEE> thank you
<head_victim_defy> #vote apogee membership application
<meetingology> Please vote on: apogee membership application
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<czajkowski> +1 well done and keep it up
<meetingology> +1 well done and keep it up received from czajkowski
<ejat> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from ejat
<Destine> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Destine
<head_victim_defy> +1 nice work with the loco
<meetingology> +1 nice work with the loco received from head_victim_defy
<elky> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from elky
<ApOgEE> thanks czajkowski ejat Destine head_victim_defy elky
<head_victim_defy> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: apogee membership application
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<Destine> ApOgEE, congrats.
<head_victim_defy> Well done apogee
<ApOgEE> thank you very much
<ejat> congrate ApOgEE .. keep up the good work with loco ..
<head_victim_defy> Are there any other applicants here?
<head_victim_defy> Or does anyone else have anything to bring up tonight?
<ejat> i think only the one that u suggest just now
<Destine> ejat, agree. That page is really out of date.
<ejat> we need to notice or acknowledge the candidates for our next meeting
<czajkowski> or else spring clean the wiki page fro start and if people are still interested they will re add themselves
<ejat> czajkowski: agreed ..
<Destine> czajkowski, agree.
<czajkowski> it's not fair on the candidates and also havng a full set of members here as well so meetings start on time is more encouraging for members
<head_victim_defy> Okay if you are all happy me to do I'll email them all this week telling them to reapply when ready
<Destine> head_victim_defy, could you please tell me when is the next meeting?
<head_victim_defy> Thanks elky, ejat, destine and czajkowski
<ejat> thanks to u too ..
<ApOgEE> Thanks all
<head_victim_defy> Destine: 2nd and 4th tuesdays of every month according to the wiki
<Destine> head_victim, thank you, good chair.
<head_victim_defy> We can discuss I'd that suits on the mailing list so all members can have a say
<Destine> head_victim_defy, thx.
<head_victim_defy> Okay happy to end meeting?
<head_victim_defy> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep 13 10:38:59 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-13-10.16.moin.txt
<head_victim_defy> Thanks one and ask I have to go back to work now
<jamespage> o/
<m_3> o/
<Daviey> \o
<jamespage> OK - lets get started then
<jamespage> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep 13 16:00:22 2011 UTC.  The chair is jamespage. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jamespage> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jamespage> no action point from last meeting
<jamespage> #topic Oneiric Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Oneiric Development
<Daviey> Hey.
<Daviey>  http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<jamespage> #chair Daviey
<meetingology> Current chairs: Daviey jamespage
<Daviey> is looking quite good, but also not making much progress.  Not seeing too much new stuff appearing, or some of the older stuff going away
<Daviey> So we really need to look at what needs to be targeted.
<Daviey> We didn't get as many bug reports from beta 2 as we might have hoped.
<Daviey> This could mean it's already really, really stable
<Daviey> (beta 1 rather)
<Daviey> So please look over bugs, and see candidates for Oneiric
<Daviey> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-server-overview.html
<Daviey> The main conerns i have regarding features are probably regarding arm at this stage.
<hallyn> Daviey: can I mark bug 827831 wontfix?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 827831 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu Oneiric) "[FFE] Upgrade qemu-kvm for oneiric to version 0.15 from upstream" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/827831
<Daviey> It's not clear what how that is looking.
<hallyn> Daviey: and can you target the qemu-kvm-spice one?
<Daviey> hallyn: And take pleasure in doing so.
<Daviey> hallyn: spice-gtk ?
<hallyn> no, qemu-kvm-spice merge
<Daviey> hallyn: bug num?
<hallyn> (finding)
<hallyn> 828789
<Daviey> bug 828789
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 828789 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu) "[FFE] please enable spice support" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/828789
<Daviey> hallyn: thanks
<hallyn> thank YOU
<Daviey> Ursinha: thanks for joining us. :)
<Ursinha> Daviey, autojoin failed, sorry
<Daviey> anything else for devel?
<jamespage> Daviey: does not appear so - shall we move on?
<jamespage> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<Daviey> Openstack Developers Summit and Conference is soon
<jamespage> So anyone want to raise awareness of events that members of the server team are attending?
<Daviey> Oct 3rd ->
<jamespage> any other events that folk are attending?
<m_3> Strata, mediawiki hackathon, hadoopworld to show off ensemble
<Daviey> m_3: where is that?
<m_3> Strata/NY... mediawiki/NewOrleans... Hadoopworld/NY
<Daviey> bah. no good for me.
<jamespage> m_3: are you attending all of those events?
<m_3> yup
<jamespage> just out of interest anyone attending javaone (1-6 Oct) or the Jenkins Conference just before it?
<jamespage> hmm - guess not - moving on
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<jamespage> #chair hggdh
<meetingology> Current chairs: Daviey hggdh jamespage
<jamespage> just in case he wants to action anyone :-)
<jamespage> hggdh: any updates from the QA team?
<jamespage> hmm - looks like no hggdh ATM - we'll come back to him later if he appears
<jamespage> #unchair hggdh
<meetingology> Current chairs: Daviey jamespage
<jamespage> #unchair Daviey
<meetingology> Current chairs: jamespage
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<Daviey> (apologies, only half here - on the phone)
<jamespage> hmm - no smb either
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (NCommander)
<jamespage> NCommander: any updates from you re ARM server?
<jamespage> guess not
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<jamespage> any updates from the community? hows the review of the server documentation set going?
<hggdh> jamespage: hi, sorry, was on a competing call
<jamespage> hggdh - np - we can backup to your topic now
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions from the Ubuntu Community
<jamespage> or even
<hggdh> OK.
<jamespage> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<hggdh> We have the new opestack tests to be integrated into the QA cycle, as jamespage told me today
<hggdh> I am looking at it
<hggdh> RoAkSoAx: you were to give me a writeup of installing cobbler. Is it ready?
<hggdh> we want to get it set on the lab, and make it as near as possible to a standard
<jamespage> #info https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Oneiric/OpenStackTestPlan
<adam_g> hggdh: we're still fleshing out some bugs on the provisioning side, but its coming along
<adam_g> there is currently an openstack installation there
<hggdh> adam_g: nice, thank you. We had some tests on cobbler, but I really want to do it by the book (whenever the book gets to exist, it will conform, I mean)
<adam_g> i should note, openstack hogging almost the enitre cluster, so if someone needs to use the cluster, please let me know and ill tear down
<RoAkSoAx> hggdh: orchestra/ensemble
<RoAkSoAx> hggdh: it is ready
<RoAkSoAx> hggdh: i mean I have already made a write-up
<hggdh> RoAkSoAx: cool! We need to figure out hardware requirements, but they will not be available in time for beta. Can we do it under KVM?
<RoAkSoAx> hggdh: yeah, I'm also using smoser's cobbler-devenv for that
<hggdh> apart from that, life is good. Please remember beta2 is approaching (like we would forget), and test coverage *is* a requirement ;-)
<hggdh> ..
<jamespage> great - thanks hggdh
<jamespage> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<jamespage> open floor - anyone got anything else they would like to raise?
<jamespage> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<jamespage> Tuesday 2011-09-20 at 1600 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting
<jamespage> see you next week
<jamespage> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep 13 16:30:39 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-13-16.00.moin.txt
<apw> o/
<kamal> \o
<herton> o/
<jjohansen> o/
<bjf> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep 13 17:00:21 2011 UTC.  The chair is bjf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<bjf> ##
<bjf> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<bjf> ##
<bjf> # Meeting Etiquette
<bjf> #
<bjf> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<bjf> #       'o/' indicates you have something you'd like to add (wait until you are recognized)
<bjf> #
<bjf> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<bjf>  * Various arm kernel flavours: pushed out missing maverick/mvl-dove kernel,
<bjf>    it marks the end of this round of kernel updates.
<bjf>  * Oneiric/ti-omap4: work continues on the video (latest kernel broke pvr driver
<bjf>    and the omap fb seems incompatible with latest omap drm) and audio (we managed
<bjf>    to get audio out of panda via aplay but not through pulseaudio yet) fronts.
<bjf> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> === Release Metrics ===
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<ogasawara> ==== oneiric nominated bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 39 linux kernel bugs (up 19)
<ogasawara> ==== Ubuntu ubuntu-11.10-beta-2 bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 2 linux kernel bugs (up 2)
<ogasawara> ==== <series>-updates bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 15 natty linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 3 maverick linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 7 lucid linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy linux kernel bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === Incoming Bugs ===
<ogasawara>  * 191 oneiric bugs (up 19)
<ogasawara>  * 1596 natty bugs (up 11)
<ogasawara>  * 1087 maverick bugs (up 3)
<ogasawara>  * 959 lucid bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 32 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> === Regressions ===
<ogasawara> ==== regression-update bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 16 natty bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 40 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 78 lucid bugs (up 3)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-release bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 7 oneiric bugs (up 1)
<ogasawara>  * 433 natty bugs (down 2)
<ogasawara>  * 237 maverick bugs (down 1)
<ogasawara>  * 213 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 2 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ==== regression-proposed bugs ====
<ogasawara>  * 0 oneiric bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 3 natty bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 maverick bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 1 lucid bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara>  * 0 hardy bugs (no change 0)
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Milstone Targeted Work Items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milstone Targeted Work Items
<bjf> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/milestones.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-11.10-beta-2.html
<ogasawara> || apw       || other-kernel-o-bug-handling         || 2 work items||
<ogasawara> ||           || other-kernel-o-version-and-flavours || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> ||           || other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review  || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> ||           || desktop-o-xorg-stakeholders-request || 2 work items||
<ogasawara> || ppisati   || other-kernel-o-ubuntu-delta-review  || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || sarvatt   || desktop-o-xorg-tools-and-processes  || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> || smb       || other-kernel-o-server-requirements  || 1 work item ||
<ogasawara> If your name is in the table above, please review your Beta 2 work items.
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: General Oneiric (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> Last week we uploaded the 3.0.0-11.17 Ubuntu kernel.  I'm planning one more upload today in order to hit Kernel Freeze on Thurs.  I would like to remind everyone that after Kernel Freeze all patches are subject to our SRU policy in order to be applied.
<ogasawara> Some important upcoming dates to keep in mind are as follows:
<ogasawara>  * Sept 15 - Kernel Freeze (2 days)
<ogasawara>  * Sept 22 - Beta 2 (~1 weeks)
<ogasawara>  * Oct 13 - Final Release (~4 weeks)
<ogasawara> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (apw)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (apw)
<apw> === CVE Metrics ===
<apw> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<apw> Currently open CVEs for each supported branch:
<apw> || Package                                  || Open      ||
<apw> ||                                          ||           ||
<apw> || linux Hardy                              ||   15 (+6) ||
<apw> || linux Lucid                              ||    7 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux Maverick                           ||   12 (+6) ||
<apw> || linux Natty                              ||   11 (+5) ||
<apw> || linux Oneiric                            ||    5 (--) ||
<apw> || linux-ec2 Lucid                          ||    7 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux-fsl-imx51 Lucid                    ||   12 (+6) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Lucid                     ||    7 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux-mvl-dove Maverick                  ||    7 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Maverick                  ||   12 (+6) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Natty                     ||   12 (+6) ||
<apw> || linux-ti-omap4 Oneiric                   ||    6 (+1) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-maverick Lucid        ||   12 (+6) ||
<apw> || linux-lts-backport-natty Lucid           ||   11 (+5) ||
<apw> We had seven new CVEs appear this week.  One has already got patches applied, another is under review.  It is pleasing to note that the releasing still getting stable updates are already patched for a number of these.
<apw> kernel.org being off the air is impacting triage of new reports.  We expect to make some progress over the next couple of days getting these closed out.
<apw> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Natty/Maverick/Lucid/Hardy (sconklin)
<sconklin> ||== Status of kernels ==
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || The stable kernel cadence no longer runs in sync for all kernels.
<sconklin> || The Natty kernel is not delayed for any other kernel, due to the value that
<sconklin> || this kernel has for many users wishing to obtain the latest fixes. This will
<sconklin> || remain the policy for kernels which are version development-1 in the future.
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Lucid is being respun due to a regression in the i915 driver. When it is complete,
<sconklin> || it will require some time in -proposed and verification to insure that the
<sconklin> || regression is solved. In addition, three patches were reverted due to a failure
<sconklin> || to be verified.
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || There have been a dissapointing number of failures to verify fixes in the last cycle,
<sconklin> || resulting in reverting a large number of fixes which are probably of high value.
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || SRU kernel status:
<sconklin> || * [[http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html|Detailed Information Here]]
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Kernel status for each series is as follows:
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ||=== Hardy ===
<sconklin> || * Released
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ||=== Lucid ===
<sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/836914|Lucid Tracking Bug]]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 836914 in linux (Ubuntu Lucid) "[regression] linux: 2.6.32-34.76 -proposed tracker" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<sconklin> || * Now building in the PPA, will enter Testing phase when complete and copied to -proposed
<sconklin> || * The following fixes were reverted due to a failure to be verified:
<sconklin> ||   [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ecryptfs/+bug/509180|ecryptfs sometimes seems to add trailing garbage to encrypted files]]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 509180 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "ecryptfs sometimes seems to add trailing garbage to encrypted files" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<sconklin> ||   [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/583760|Mouse cursor dissappears with nouveau]]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 583760 in Gentoo Linux "[PATCH] Mouse cursor dissappears with nouveau" [High,Confirmed]
<sconklin> || * The following patch was reverted because it caused a regression:
<sconklin> ||   [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/836899|tunnels: fix netns vs proto registration ordering]]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 836899 in linux (Ubuntu) "revert tunnels: fix netns vs proto registration ordering" [Undecided,New]
<sconklin> || * The following patches will be reverted due to a regression:
<sconklin> ||     756de92 drm/i915: Remove BUG_ON from i915_gem_evict_something
<sconklin> ||     9b4fca6 drm/i915: Periodically flush the active lists and requests
<sconklin> ||     53e68e3 drm/i915/evict: Ensure we completely cleanup on failure
<sconklin> ||     38c2e45 drm/i915: Maintain LRU order of inactive objects upon access by CPU (v2)
<sconklin> ||     5ef2204 drm/i915: Implement fair lru eviction across both rings. (v2)
<sconklin> ||     3e69bf2 drm/i915: Move the eviction logic to its own file.
<sconklin> ||     1126f22 drm/i915: prepare for fair lru eviction
<sconklin> ||   These are being tracked in this bug:
<sconklin> ||     [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/849130|Revert various i915 patches]]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 849130 in linux (Ubuntu Lucid) "Revert various i915 patches" [Undecided,In progress]
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ||=== Maverick ===
<sconklin> || * Released
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ||=== Natty ===
<sconklin> || * The following fixes were reverted due to a failure to be verified:
<sconklin> ||   [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ecryptfs/+bug/509180|ecryptfs sometimes seems to add trailing garbage to encrypted files]]
<sconklin> ||   [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qemu-kvm/+bug/795717 32bit rhel and centos 5.(56) hangs on boot on natty]]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 795717 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "32bit rhel and centos 5.(5|6) hangs on boot on natty" [Medium,Incomplete]
<sconklin> ||   [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/728835|[ath9] kswapd0: page allocation failure. order:1, mode:0x4020]]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 728835 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "[ath9] kswapd0: page allocation failure. order:1, mode:0x4020" [Medium,Incomplete]
<sconklin> || * [[https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/848246|Natty Tracking Bug]]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 848246 in Kernel SRU Workflow security-signoff "linux: 2.6.38-11.50 -proposed tracker" [Undecided,In progress]
<sconklin> || * Now in -proposed
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> || Current Kernel versions are available here: http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/versions.html
<sconklin> ||
<sconklin> ..
<bjf> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions: Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<bjf> thanks everyone
<bjf> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep 13 17:08:01 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-13-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks bjf!
<cking> nice one
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-09-14
<duanedesign> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 14 00:04:13 2011 UTC.  The chair is duanedesign. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<pleia2> o/
<duanedesign> Me and SilverFox have been reviewing chaarles wiki page outlining Beginners Team changes
<duanedesign> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<pleia2> it seems we're a bit stalled on this, some direction from the council would be helpful
<duanedesign> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<duanedesign> I agreee
<duanedesign> I am working on an email
<duanedesign> what do you think of the ides about the Focus Group changes?
<duanedesign> User: This group is for new users making the transition to Ubuntu
<duanedesign> Contributor: This group is for non-developers looking to contribute and includes areas such as documentation, bug triage and quality assurance.
<duanedesign> Developer: This group is for people hoping to become core Ubuntu or application developers.
<pleia2> I think as little structure as possible is best, BT is essentially a mentoring organization and too much structure can be just as bad as too little
<duanedesign> i like the idea of making thr core team open
<duanedesign> if you want to join the docs team you should not have to join BT first
<pleia2> yeah
<duanedesign> their is no easy solution on meetings and the different time zones
<duanedesign> One thing that is not on Charles sandbox is tncorporating the mailing list more
<duanedesign> incorporating*
<pleia2> the best you can do is post the logs/minutes after the meeting and encourage feedback on the list
<duanedesign> Similar to what the Bug Squad is doing
<duanedesign> assigning a mentor to every mentee is a difficult task
<duanedesign> encouraging the use of a mailing list can help
<duanedesign> #ACTION send an email to the mailing list outlining the suggested changes and timeline for those changes
<meetingology> ACTION: send an email to the mailing list outlining the suggested changes and timeline for those changes
<duanedesign> ok i need to fix my borked oneiric install. If nobody has anything else....
<pleia2> thanks duanedesign
<duanedesign> thank you pleia2
 * starcraftman is little late but here for a change. :)
<duanedesign> hello starcraftman
<pleia2> oh! one thing real quick
<starcraftman> evening duanedesign :)
<pleia2> we're still looking for some https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays instructors
<pleia2> it's next Saturday, the 24th, need some instructors for some basic applications classes
<starcraftman> pleia2: still short huh? Sad, want me to do a second session?
<pleia2> starcraftman: maybe, I'll still try to fill them before askign you :)
<duanedesign> pleia2: that is right. I had someone ask me and I agrreed to do an Ubuntu One class.
<starcraftman> hi Unit193
<Unit193> starcraftman: Hello sir
<pleia2> duanedesign: oh good, can you have a look at the schedule on the wiki when you have a chance and let me know what time?
<starcraftman> pleia2: Ok, I don't mind too much.
<duanedesign> pleia2: I will
<pleia2> much appreciated
<starcraftman> Unit193: pshhhhhhhhhhhhh, don't call me sir, gonna make me feel old >.>.
<Unit193> starcraftman: That was the idea ;)  Just noticed meeting here
<duanedesign> #LINK https://wiki.ubuntu.com/cprofitt/sandbox
<starcraftman> Unit193: thou art evil, sir. I like :)
<duanedesign> starcraftman: not sure when you came in but we just need to start moving foward on charles ideas
<starcraftman> duanedesign: reading up now, you can carry on as I speed read. Don't want to hold up meeting.
<duanedesign> the council has discused the ideas and is putting together an email so we can moce forward
<duanedesign> starcraftman: no worries that was really all i had
<starcraftman> quite the series of changes, seems good so far. Always thought too much formality was slowing us down a bit.
<duanedesign> true, pleia thought the same
<highvoltage> win 22
<JoseeAntonioR> Hi!
<philipballew> hello
<duanedesign> hello
<JoseeAntonioR> I am willing to assist with the UserDay if I can
<philipballew> arnt we all?
<duanedesign> JoseeAntonioR: great. I think pleia2 or nigelb  are who you want to talk to
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 mentioned some basic applications classess.. what do you refer with basic applications?
<starcraftman> duanedesign: question related to plan, are we mostly on track with written timeline?
<duanedesign> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
<JoseeAntonioR> Then, pleia2, nigelb, are you here?
<pleia2> JoseeAntonioR: you'd give an intro do an application and answer questions about it, like if you wanted to do thunderbird you'd explain what it is, how to set up your email, maybe how filters work
<duanedesign> starcraftman: no the timeline needs to move forward
<pleia2> JoseeAntonioR: you can join us in #ubuntu-classroom-backstage to discuss if you want :)
<JoseeAntonioR> Going there!
<starcraftman> duanedesign: ok, I'll hopefully be around more going forward, I'm planning/scheduling stuff. It's unthinkable.
<duanedesign> starcraftman: so we can change June to Sept
<duanedesign> starcraftman: great!
<starcraftman> duanedesign: ah, I see. :)
<philipballew> is there anything I can help with here?
<duanedesign> Ok I will work on getting the email to the Beginners Team Mailing List and if their is no other Begnners Team matters I will end the meeting'
<philipballew> sounds good
<starcraftman> duanedesign: ok.
<duanedesign> philipballew: what did you want to help with? Beginners Team or User Day?
<philipballew> duanedesign, both!
<duanedesign> :) great
<philipballew> thats why i am here at the meeting duanedesign
<philipballew> :)
<duanedesign> The Beginners Team channel is #ubuntu-beginners-team
<philipballew> i am aware. I provide tech support on there. Lately its been at night
<duanedesign> our wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam
<philipballew> lets trade duanedesign  :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/philipballew
<duanedesign> philipballew: we are working on some changes to make jjoining the Beginners Team easier
<philipballew> I know. I have wanted to become a "member" for a little while and figured id joun the meeting here to see if it was gonna change about how i did so
<duanedesign> philipballew: if you want you can join our mailinglist to keep up on the upcoming changes https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-beginners
<duanedesign> ok i need to run. #endmeeting
<Unit193> Newline
<duanedesign> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 14 00:43:18 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-14-00.04.moin.txt
<duanedesign> Unit193: thank you :)
<philipballew> awesome!
<Unit193> duanedesign: Anytime :)
<duanedesign> philipballew: thank you for attending
<philipballew> no worries :)
 * slangasek waves
<ev> hiya
<mvo> hello
 * stgraber waves
<bdmurray> hi
<barry> hiya
<jhunt> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 14 15:02:26 2011 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e cjwatson barry doko stgraber jhunt mvo ev bdmurray slangasek)
<slangasek> stgraber doko barry bdmurray cjwatson ev slangasek jhunt mvo
<slangasek> stgraber: heya
<stgraber> hey!
<stgraber> - IPv6
<stgraber>  - Made some progress on automated testing. I now have scripts generating all the needed networks, configurations and LXC containers (router and tester).
<stgraber>  - Did some manual testing of the DUID changes by cyphermox (bug 849994)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 849994 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "FFE: add NetworkManager DUID support" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/849994
<stgraber>  - Will run a batch of manual tests of netcfg as automating them is taking longer than expected (I really need to find a way of running d-i in a LXC container ;))
<stgraber> - iSCSI
<stgraber>  - Made some progress on bug 838809. The problem is that open-iscsi is now being started at boot time ;)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 838809 in Ubuntu Oneiric "authenticated and unauthenicated iscsi clients fails to complete boot" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/838809
<stgraber>  - Need to spend more time finding a way of starting iscsid without disconnecting existing sessions.
<stgraber>  - An easy workaround would be to "exit 0" when open-iscsi detects that we have run iscsistart in the initrd. This would restore the old behaviour.
<stgraber>  - Problem with the workaround (and the pre-Oneiric open-iscsi) is that we only mount one lun from initramfs (the one needed for /), any other luns defined in /etc/iscsi aren't getting connected.
<stgraber> - friendly-recovery
<stgraber>  - With the suggestions of James and Colin, got a bunch of debdiffs attached to bug 575469
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 575469 in friendly-recovery (Ubuntu Oneiric) "[UIFe] [FFe] recovery mode mounts filesystems read-write rather than read-only" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/575469
<stgraber>  - This moves friendly-recovery out of /usr, add a read-only mode and splits recovery and single-mode into two different things. Currently waiting for the FFe and UIFe.
<stgraber> - TODO
<stgraber>  - Figure out how we want to fix that open-iscsi bug
<stgraber>  - Do a last seed review and update for Edubuntu, possibly dropping at least Gnome Nanny (doesn't seem to work...)
<stgraber>  - Finish the automated IPv6 testing and push the code somewhere
<stgraber>  - Still need to spend more time trying to get TPM working in a PPA
<mvo> \o/ 575469
<doko> - NBS, http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/nbs.html looks mucher nicer now ;)
<slangasek> stgraber: what's the status of getting the ipv6 automated testing handed off to qa?
<slangasek> do we expect that in place between now and release?
<stgraber> slangasek: I'm first trying to get it working here ;) I'll have it running daily on a box of mine and will send the scripts to QA
<stgraber> slangasek: I don't expect we'll have working IPv6 in DC very soon so it may take a while until it's running on QA infrastructure
<slangasek> hmmm, ok
<stgraber> at least the current implementation runs on LXC so I can get it running on anything that I have around and has ipv6 connectivity.
<slangasek> doko: nbs> yay!
<doko> - and FTBFS 7x24
<doko> ..
<stgraber> from what we discussed at the sprint, it seemed unlikely we'd be allowed to get an IPv6 tunnel or native connectivity from the QA infrastructure, at least not quickly.
<doko> who did want to look at indicator-applet?
<slangasek> stgraber: maybe the test configs should include a router with a tunnel?
<slangasek> hmm
<slangasek> doko: surely that should be flagged to the desktop team to clear up?
<cjwatson> I thought it had been and they kind of stalled
<doko> I'll assign it
<slangasek> doko: thanks
<stgraber> slangasek: I guess I could have the router act as a DNS server and HTTP proxy which might be enough to install and run some tests when we don't actually have public ipv6 connectivity
<slangasek> doko: anything else?  Perhaps something you were working on during day 8 of the week, or hours 25-26 :)
<doko> ohh, it is, bug 829491
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 829491 in indicator-applet (Ubuntu Oneiric) "indicator-applet version 0.4.12-0ubuntu1 failed to build in oneiric" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/829491
 * cjwatson gets slangasek a moon on a stic
<cjwatson> *stick
<doko> no, only openjdk-7 update, fortran rebuild, and some unrelated bug fixes
<cjwatson> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/moon-on-stick.jpeg
<slangasek> deep-fried, I trust
<slangasek> haha
<barry> :)
<barry> i guess i'm up then...
<barry> bug 407862; bug 839588; bug 621242; bug 831102; bug 835001; bug 770882; python bug 11715 (multiarch on kubuntu); python27 for lucid work (not totally given up yet, but close :).  done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 407862 in Rsyslog "Messages not being sent to system logs" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/407862
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 839588 in python2.7 (Ubuntu) "Python 2.7 unable to find it's header files in virtualenv" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/839588
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 621242 in mocker (Ubuntu Oneiric) "[MIR] mocker" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/621242
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 831102 in python-django-nova (Ubuntu Oneiric) "python-django-nova version 0.3~git20110711-0ubuntu1 failed to build in oneiric" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/831102
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 835001 in pyacidobasic (Ubuntu Oneiric) "pyacidobasic version 1.0-3 failed to build in oneiric" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/835001
<cjwatson> stgraber: could use tayga and totd to do NAT64 :-)
<cjwatson> maybe
<bdmurray> branch and merge proposal for apport to add the apport version to apport bug reports
<bdmurray> branch and merge proposal for ubiquity apport source package hook changes
<bdmurray> merge proposal / upload for dkms apport hook fixing bug 816199
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 816199 in dkms (Ubuntu) "dkms_packages.py crashed with ValueError in _apt_pkg(): package does not exist" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/816199
<barry> hmm, i thought i uploaded the fix for 839588
<bdmurray> review and merging of bugpattern branchs from Vadim
<bdmurray> review of bug patterns merge proposal(s) from RedSingularity
<bdmurray> wrote, tested and added a bzr plugin for bug pattern commits
<bdmurray> blog post regarding bugpattern_written bzr plugin
<bdmurray> porting of patch subscription script to bug bot, modification of process to add a comment and subscriber ubuntu-sponsors to debdiff attachments
<bdmurray> research into using bug_supervisor advanced search parameter in the web user interface
<bdmurray> modified / updated launchpad greasemonkey tagging script to work again (been broken for about a year)
<bdmurray> ubuntu bug day no package bug participation
<bdmurray> ubuntu bug squad meeting
<bdmurray> done
<cjwatson> FTBFS; 40+ so far this week.
<cjwatson> Repeated attempts to get an ubuntu-defaults-image build to work on the livefs buildds.  Finally succeeded today so am unblocked on dealing with the publishing scripts; that's my next task.
<cjwatson> Firefighting eglibc/apt breakage yesterday due to C.UTF-8 collation order change.
<cjwatson> Arranged for oem-config et al to be on the USB images again.
<cjwatson> Waiting for RT#47856 resolution to complete multiarch-translations.
<cjwatson> ..
<ev> - Very short week; at Linux Plumbers and vacation on Tuesday.
<ev> - Catching up on emails. Coordinating installer testing with Gema of QA.
<ev> - Slideshow merges.
<ev> - Fixes to the wireless networking page when an AP disappears.
<ev> - Progress on setting the wallpaper in the GDK3 world.
<ev> (done)
<stgraber> cjwatson: oh, indeed, nat64 could do the trick. I'll need to poke at it once I get the rest of the test setup working :)
<slangasek> short week for me, what with being on vacation through Monday
<slangasek> proposed an FFe for plymouth to get flicker-free boot enabled with lightdm; one-liner change, but could use some more testing from folks with different video hardware
<mvo> I can test it with the free ati drivers if that helps
<slangasek> (bug #849954)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 849954 in plymouth (Ubuntu Oneiric) "FFe: enable flicker-free boot with lightdm" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/849954
<slangasek> mvo: that would be most welcome!
<slangasek> also spent some time on a plane hacking on a startpar-upstart bridge, so that we can push a usable upstart into Debian
<slangasek> ...and working on email backlog
<slangasek> that's about it :)
<slangasek> jhunt:
<jhunt> Still finishing tests for Upstart job logging (necessitated 122 *new*
<jhunt> tests so far!). Would be beneficial to have access to a system with NFS
<jhunt> home directories. Merged code into Ubuntu branch and updated my
<jhunt> "upstart-testing" PPA. Works, but with caveats: display manager doesn't
<jhunt> initialize (who needs a GUI right? :), and there are minor problems with
<jhunt> dbus and getty (currently investigating). One of the new tests has found
<jhunt> a kernel bug. I've whipped up a test case and the fix looks relatively
<jhunt> easy so I might have a go at that soon. Recreated problem on bug
<jhunt> 818177. Tested with new kernel but no change. Trying to better
<jhunt> understand the problem, but will need to talk to slangasek/cjwatson on
<jhunt> this one.
<jhunt> â
<cjwatson> I'm afraid the last time I had NFS home directories anywhere was at job-2
<cjwatson> (and good riddance)
<jhunt> hey, me too! :)
<mvo> vacation last week!
<mvo> this week:
<mvo> lots and lots and lots of mail catchup
<mvo> aptdaemon: new bzr fixes snapshot reviewed/tested/uploaded
<mvo> command-not-found-data update
<mvo> software-center: debug database corruption issue again and hopefully fix threading race via thread specific xapiandb, review/merge lp:~mmcg069/software-center/submit-review-fixes, add simple get_title_from_html helper for the exhibits html, fix single item exhibits, show non-apps in exhibit lists as well, reenable plugins, add conflict for old oneconf, update example plugin, load plugins from the homedir as well, debug/fix exhibits banner re
<mvo> ndering bug, include new default banner
<mvo> apt: branch merges, cherry pick fix for sbuild breakage (lp: #816155), debug apt-ftparchive hang and fix it in lp:~mvo/apt/lucid-apt-ftparchive, cherry pick r2171 from lp:~donkult/apt/sid, fix double delete (thanks to cjwatson mostly) and upload new version
<mvo> update-manager: debug/fix incorrect way of calling --with=python2, upload new version, branch merges
<mvo> (EOF)
<nullcore> i have an NFS system if you need access to it
<nullcore> i use it for SELinux development, but i have a pristine setup as well that i could give you an account on
<nullcore> sorry for interrupting
<jhunt> nullcore: thanks - np :)
<barry> sadly i still use nfs on my nas
<slangasek> I have plenty of NFS here, but homes? yick
<jhunt> well, nfs root would be good to start with.
 * jhunt wants a netapp :)
<slangasek> heh, not sure nfs root is where I would start :)
<slangasek> considering it's been in varying states of disrepair since upstart was introduced, I think
 * stgraber is glad LTSP switched away from nfs root a while ago ;)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] burndown chartz
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: burndown chartz
<slangasek> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/canonical-foundations.html
<slangasek> looks like we've got some accounting to do :)
<slangasek> I'm going through this week to postpone workitems that we know should be postponed; please do the same for your own workitems
<slangasek> so the release manager doesn't worry about all those features we're landing the day before release
<slangasek> I may come knocking on doors individually to discuss workitems as needed
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else on your minds?
 * barry thanks cjwatson for the pointer to chdist
<ScottK> Yes.
<bdmurray> On a funny note I found some unity bugs filed about dash
<ScottK>  libnet-dns-perl apparently doesn't support IPv6.
<ScottK> There's a patch on http://lists.amavis.org/pipermail/amavis-users/2011-June/000462.html
<slangasek> bdmurray: errr?
<bdmurray> well isn't party of unity called dash? ;-)
<bdmurray> or the dash
<slangasek> oh, heh
<ScottK> Neither upstream nor the Debian maintainer are very active, so I was wondering if someone with a bit of Perl foo might see if we should get that in.
<ScottK> (related to foundations-o-ipv6-healthcheck)
<ScottK> ..
<cjwatson> that looks like libnet-server-perl rather than libnet-dns-perl?
<ScottK> Yes, sorry.
<slangasek> any takers for a bit of perl?
<cjwatson> I can take it
<cjwatson> https://rt.cpan.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=33289
<cjwatson> apparently it's already been applied in Debian svn
<cjwatson> https://rt.cpan.org/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=67305
<slangasek> [ACTION] cjwatson to get libnet-server-perl fixed for ipv6
<meetingology> ACTION: cjwatson to get libnet-server-perl fixed for ipv6
<slangasek> cjwatson: thanks
<ScottK> cjwatson: Thanks.
<cjwatson> so that's just "upload from svn" which is easy
<ScottK> That's not what Debian Git users tell me.
<ScottK> ;)
 * cjwatson used svn for long enough that he doesn't have that particular prejudice :)
 * slangasek has used git for long enough that he doesn't have that prejudice either ;)
<cjwatson> heh, that too
<slangasek> anything else?
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 14 15:32:05 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-14-15.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all!
<mvo> thanks
<stgraber> thanks
<jhunt> thanks
<barry> thanks!
<doko> thanks
<ev> thanks
<gema> QA meeting in 15 mins!
<gema> Hi everyone, I will be chairing today's QA team meeting, I hope we are ready to get started
<gema> #startmeeting QA Team meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 14 17:00:53 2011 UTC.  The chair is gema. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Team meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<gema> So, let's start with the previous actions
<gema> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Previous Actions
<gema> nuclearbob: were there any actions from last meeting?
<nuclearbob> nope
<gema> good, next topic
<gema> [TOPIC] Community Efforts/Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Community Efforts/Testing
<gema> does anyone have an update on community efforts ?
 * gema reminds you she is still not familiar with the usual players, so if anyone is meant to speak, please do so
<gema> 3
<gema> 2
<gema> 1
<gema> [TOPIC] Automated/Systems Testing
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Automated/Systems Testing
<gema> I have been working on putting together a set of test cases that will need to be automated at some point
<gema> we are still working on the test analysis and will publish it for review soon
<gema> that's all from me
<gema> ..
<gema> any other update?
<gema> 3
<gema> 2
<gema> 1
<gema> moving on, then
<gema> [TOPIC] Engineering Team Bug Status
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Engineering Team Bug Status
<gema> any updates on bug status, hggdh ? are you around?
<bdmurray> \o
<gema> bdmurray: go for it :)
<bdmurray> There has been lots of activity around writing bug patterns recently with quite a few community contributions
<bdmurray> Which is a huge help
<bdmurray> Yesterday, I fixed the greasemonkey script that allows easier tagging of bug reports
<bdmurray> This is currently in the bzr branch and I'll add it to the firefox extension shortly
<bdmurray> Oh, I also wrote a bzr plugin that modifies bug reports that have had a bug pattern written for them when you are pushing the branch with the bug pattern
<bdmurray> This saves quite a few steps
<Ursinha> cool!
<bdmurray> And I rewrote a Launchpad bug with patches tool to be run by my bug bot and behave differently if the patch is a debdiff
<bdmurray> that's all folks
<gema> thanks, bdmurray
<gema> excellent week, you had :)
<gema> any other update ? Ursinha ?
<Ursinha> after bdmurray it's hard to look I've been working :)
<Ursinha> I've been working on things that aren't noticiable for now, organizing the server packages and have list of bugs given their priorities to improve triage
<Ursinha> nothing much reportable :)
<Ursinha> ..
<gema> good, thanks
<gema> moving on to the next topic unless someone has anything else :)
<gema> [TOPIC] Other Topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Other Topics
<gema> anything else you'd like to let us know? any other business to be discussed? any suggestion?
<gema> any volunteers to review a test analysis?
<charlie-tca> What's involved in that?
<gema> reading the document and sending comments (such as , I think you are missing this, or that, or I would do this differently)
<charlie-tca> I am terrible at that kind of thing
<gema> the document itself is for generating testing for Ubiquity, the installer
<gema> ok, charlie-tca , not a problem :)
<charlie-tca> If no one else speaks up, I can try, though
<gema> go ahead :)
<gema> ok, I will speak to you about it off the meeting , thanks!
<charlie-tca> okay
<hggdh> \o
<gema> go ahead, hggdh
<hggdh> just a reminder, Beta 2 is coming -- we would like as much help as possible in testing the ISOs
<hggdh> ..
<gema> thanks
<gema> [TOPIC] Chair Selection
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | QA Team meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Chair Selection
<gema> any volunteers to chair the meeting next week?
<gema> ok, let's shuffle it then!
<hggdh> yeah!
<gema> Ursinha, it seems to be your turn
<gema> are you happy with that?
<hggdh> yes!
<Ursinha> sure :)
<charlie-tca> Yay!
<gema> cool!
<gema> [ACTION] Ursinha to chair next meeting
<meetingology> ACTION: Ursinha to chair next meeting
<Ursinha> \o/
<darkcharl> (a late hurray!)
<gema> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 14 17:19:37 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-14-17.00.moin.txt
<gema> ok, so now it is done
<charlie-tca> gema: thank you for chairing
<gema> not a problem! now I don't know how to get the logs on the wiki
<Ursinha> thanks!
<gema> I found it, no problem :D
<hggdh> thank you gema
<gema> hggdh: will the minutes appear automatically on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings ? in previous meetings?
<hggdh> well, it _could_, be we have been copying it in the w.u.c space manually -- it is saved on the bot's home by default, outside Ubuntu
<hggdh> and we wanted to be sure it would always be available within Ubuntu
<gema> you speak a very confusing language for me x)
<gema> w.u.c?
<Ursinha> gema, wiki.ubuntu.com, I guess
<gema> Ursinha: I like your thinking, it is too late for me in the day to be seeing those things x)
<gema> thanks
<Ursinha> no problem :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-09-15
<ppisati> hallo? :)
<NCommander> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Sep 15 15:01:04 2011 UTC.  The chair is NCommander. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<ogra_> fnop
<ppisati> fput()
<ogra_> :)
 * davidm_ waves
<NCommander> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/Meeting/2011/20110915
<NCommander> [topic] Action Item Review
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Action Item Review
<NCommander> [topic] ogra to find out whats wrong with the tracker
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ogra to find out whats wrong with the tracker
<ogra_> thats moot
<ogra_> we had the wrong url
<NCommander> ah, so a PEBKAC problem
 * NCommander can't spell this mornming
<ogra_> heh
<NCommander> [topic] Standing Items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Standing Items
<NCommander> [topic] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-arm.html
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-arm.html
<NCommander> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-arm-ubuntu-11.10-beta-2.html
<janimo> hello
 * ogra_ has a question for one of his items ... 
<ogra_> do we actually want to do the ext4 switch right now ?
<ogra_> it seriously seems a bit late to me for such a change
<NCommander> for preinstalls?
<ogra_> yes
<ogra_> live-build only recently got support for ext4
<janimo> ogra_, would be good imo, does live-build have the patch already? (In Ubuntu I mean)
<ogra_> so we could theoretically still do the switch
<GrueMaster> Should have been done for A2/A3.  Little late now.
<ogra_> but that also means lots of fallount i think
<NCommander> Best to stay with ext3 for now, and change it for A1 in P cycle
<ogra_> janimo, no idea, but we could pull it in
<ogra_> but i'm more in a tendency to postpone it
<janimo> ogra_, not a very important thing, just a would be nice to align with ubuntu x86 and linaro
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> i agree
<NCommander> definately something for next cycle
<ogra_> but beta freeze is tomorrow and the images still have tons of bugs
<janimo> with linaro's monthly schedule we will always have stale images featurewise for a few months
 * NCommander adds it to the blueprint list
<janimo> sure
<janimo> NCommander, blueprint wiki link please?
<GrueMaster> Beta freeze is today.
<janimo> So it is not a real freeze, just a beta one
<GrueMaster> [link]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/PBlueprintIdeas
<NCommander> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/PBlueprintIdeas#preview
<NCommander> drat, GrueMaster was faster
<ogra_> GrueMaster, well, past midnight for me ;)
<ogra_> NCommander, GrueMaster was cleaner :P
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Server Status (NCommander, Daviey)
<NCommander> server itself looks like its in good shape for A2, though we have some outstanding OMAP issues which I'll bring up during porting
<NCommander> anyone got anything else?
<janimo> is mx5 related to server in any way?
<ogra_> no
<ogra_> we dont roll server for it
<NCommander> Guess there's nothing else
<NCommander> [topic] Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel Status (cooloney, ppisati)
<ppisati> it's me, Paolo! :)
<ogra_> yay
<ppisati> there;s a new omap4 kernel
<ppisati> and this new kernel fixes some outstanding issues: framebuffer coloring, audio, and a couple of warnings on boot
<janimo> there's a new ac100 kernel upload preparing to fix the USB speed issue and to enable DRM but nothing else
<ogra_> framebuffer coloring ? are you serious ?!?
<ppisati> unfortunately the new kernel breaks the pvr driver, but that should be fixed in an upcoming release
<ppisati> yep
<ppisati> :)
 * ogra_ got used to the blue after all these releases
<ppisati> no more "smurf-colored" console
<ppisati> :)
<mahmoh> the USB speed issue is fixed already in the omap4 kernel?
<ppisati> oh yes
<ogra_> yes
<ppisati> sorry
<ppisati> i forgot about the important stuff
<NCommander> I thought purple in d-i was intentional
<ppisati> yes, Ming's ehci fix is in there too
<ppisati> so, good usb i/o too
<ogra_> NCommander, but blue text in black tty console wasnt ;)
<ppisati> now we "only" need to fix pm and pvr driver and that will be the best omap release so far :)
<ppisati> oh yes, and kexec too...
<ogra_> wohoo
<ogra_> on the ac100 front, janimo takles over the ac100 kernel now
<ogra_> so we will finally get a git tree i guess :)
 * ppisati didn't mention the usual round of kernel updates for all the other arm flavours since we are getting one of this every week
<ppisati> cool
<NCommander> yay git
<ogra_> pfft git
<Ursinha> lol
 * Ursinha grabs the popcorn and watches
<ogra_> lol
<ppisati> and it seems cooloney is back
<ogra_> oh, nice, will he come back and attend then ?
<janimo> yay git
<janimo> 2:1
<ppisati> ah, dunno
<Daviey> rbasak: Around?
<ppisati> perhaps he will move to West Europe/US? :)
<rbasak> Daviey: yes!
<NCommander> anytihng else or should move on?
<ppisati> move
<ogra_> go
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Porting/FTBFS status (NCommander, janimo)
<ogra_> horrid !
<ogra_> wrt universe
<janimo> given back a few packages
<ogra_> main looks okayish
<ogra_> i went through all ftbfs logs the last days
<janimo> nothing actually changed/fixed but that
<ogra_> 70-80% of the arm ftbfs are GLES stuff
<NCommander> On the OMAP3 side, netboot remains broken, fix there should be forthcoming today
<ogra_> some libavcodec
<janimo> we probably get to fix pgsql unless upstream is on it
<ogra_> and a bunch of qreal
<janimo> ogasawara, 70-80? I doubt it is that much. I would have thought it is around 30%
<janimo> needs to be counted :)
<ogra_> rsalveti, do you have any std reciepe for GLES issues ?
 * rsalveti reading
<GrueMaster> Guys, check your name tab completion.
<ogra_> the ftbfs wikipage could need some code examples etc
<janimo> ogra_, I think those apps need porting to GLES or have that code disabled.
<rsalveti> ogra_: not for now, planned to discuss at UDS
<janimo> it is very app specific
<rsalveti> because the apps need porting
<ogra_> janimo, well, if its just: change dep, switch configure options and build ...
<ogra_> some apps have gles support
<ogra_> but haent got it enabled
<NCommander> on OMAP4, I've been grinding away at updating partman-uboot/partman-reciepes for the last week and some before I went for vacation
 * ogra_ resarched some of them 
<NCommander> Its 95% working but still has some odds and ends. I've talked to skaet about it, and I'm expecting it to land tonight/tomorrow
<janimo> ogra_, the Qt ones cannot work as they use GLES and OPENGL in the same time
<janimo> and those are quite a few
<ogra_> right
<ogra_> i mean the ones that are ported upstream but where the build behaves like on x86
<rsalveti> don't believe we have much of those still
<ogra_> not many, but a few
<rsalveti> most of the issues are from the qt gl x gles issue
<ogra_> stellarium is a prominent one
<ogra_> and there are a few others
<ogra_> anyway, i dont want to slow the meeting
<ogra_> NCommander, move :)
<NCommander> [topic] ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Image Status (ogra, NCommander)
<ogra_> so so ...
<ogra_> we had some issues with the build system that hopefully shoudl be resolved
<ogra_> lamont, replaced something on annonaceae since then omap and mx5 builds seem to hang
<ogra_> i pinged him but he doesnt seem to be around, i'll hunt down someone else from IS later
<ogra_> ac100 images build and install fine, mx5 should be building fine too now
<janimo> ogra_, so the lack of today's images is due to above breakage?
<ogra_> oh and archive skew costed us three days of images this week
<janimo> indeed ac100 is working fine
<janimo> nice, less than it costs on average :)
 * NCommander whacks janimo 
<ogra_> janimo, yes, annonaceae doesnt build anything apparently, i suspect an ssh key was replaced or so
<ogra_> NCommander, anything to add for the server or netinst images
<ogra_> ?
<NCommander> just the previous methoned partman-uboot hacking for OMAP3/4, and the f-k fix
<ogra_> move then :)
<NCommander> [topic] QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA Status (GrueMaster, mahmoh)
<GrueMaster> All kernel SRU testing for systems on life support completed this week.
<GrueMaster> Most of the testing for server is no finished, at least for a once over.
<GrueMaster> My only beagleXM has an odd issue with the latest x-loader/u-boot where it will no longer connect to the network.  Driver loads, but it will not show a link.
<GrueMaster> Using the Natty versions works fine.
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: were you able to test with linaro's kernel?
<ppisati> my xm rev a1 works ok with O u-boot
<GrueMaster> not yet.  Had to reimage (I was running a cryptfs and linaro doesn't support that).
<GrueMaster> Will test linaro kernel today.
<ogra_> MMlosh in #ubuntu-arm reported the same NIC issue
<GrueMaster> Also plan on doing some deep desktop image testing for the rest of the week, as I have done little on that this cycle.
<ogra_> but he is on natty and just using the oneiric kernel
<GrueMaster> interesting.
<ogra_> so i'm not sure it isnt userspace
<ogra_> but indeed intresting that you see the same
<GrueMaster> mahmoh: anything to add?
<mahmoh> GrueMaster: nothing except that you're doing a bang up job
<ogra_> ++
<ogra_> and he is also our best supporter in #ubuntu-arm
<NCommander> [topic] Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro Updates (rsalveti)
 * rsalveti waves
<rsalveti> well, not much that touches oneiric
<rsalveti> first version of gcc-linaro packages
<rsalveti> to be available at the toolchain backports PPA
<rsalveti> to help testing toolchain issues and validating the gcc-linaro later on
<rsalveti> on-going debugging on LTTng 2.x
<rsalveti> first time we're trying to make it work with ARM
<rsalveti> good thing is that we don't have a lot of kernel dependencies as before
<rsalveti> hope to make it work properly this time
<rsalveti> looking to try to get bug 669641 fixed at the linaro-kernels atm
<GrueMaster> Is there a plan to integrate x-loader with u-boot for omap next cycle?  Also, PXE would be nice, since the code is there.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 669641 in linux (Ubuntu) "systemtap fails to discover installed debug modules" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/669641
<rsalveti> then push it to ubuntu-kernel once the fix is available and working
<janimo> nice
<rsalveti> GrueMaster: yup, in theory SPL already works for OMAP
<rsalveti> we'll validate it for this cycle, so for P it should work the same way
<janimo> bye bye xloader
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> well, not completely
<ogra_> yet
<rsalveti> but at least for next cycle for sure :-)
<NCommander> anything else?
<rsalveti> and on-going multi-arch fixes in place to get firefox cross buildable
<ogra_> well you still keep MLO
<rsalveti> sure, but the main issue was how x-loader was maintained
<rsalveti> that's the next step
<ogra_> indeed
<janimo> ogra_, yes, but no more extra packages that we need to keep remembering the names of
<ogra_> NCommander, nothing from me
<rsalveti> that's most from my side
<janimo> thanks rsalveti
<NCommander> [topic] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<ogra_> erm
<ogra_> what about blueprints ?? werent we supposed to have a topic for that today ?
<GrueMaster> erm?
 * ogra_ thought davidm wanted to discuss them today
<davidm_> Yes, I did want to see a review of bp
<davidm_> I'm on a call that I can 't break from
<ogra_> davidm, lets do it on the call then
<ogra_> for the community: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/PBlueprintIdeas oin case you have ideas to add for us :)
<davidm_> But I would like to see the team review the BP page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/PBlueprintIdeas
<ogra_> lets go over them then
<davidm_> The page is scheduled to lock soonish
<ogra_> say 19th at the top schedule :)
<ogra_> *says
<ogra_> ah, no, even 3rd
<GrueMaster> Actually, I think it is the 3rd that it locks.
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> i slipped a row
<ogra_> forst one is "Implement an ARM Server Kernel for Server Hardware"
<GrueMaster> At any rate.  Shall I list them and we can beat^h^H^Hdiscuss them?
<rbasak> Is that a kernel flavour, like server and virtual?
<GrueMaster> Server kernel makes sense once we have a server platform.
<mahmoh> will this have to be per platform?
<ogra_> i guess that actually depends on having server hardware :)
<ogra_> GrueMaster, oh, feel free
 * ogra_ steps back
<ogra_> rbasak, yes, the -server kernel uses a few different config options
<ogra_> mahmoh, well, it hads to be for the "server platform"
<ogra_> it doesnt make sense to put a fulltime person on a server kernel without having server HW
<mahmoh> and arm should have its own configs on top of that
<ogra_> and i guess it will be a good part of a fulltime job
<ogra_> (split across kernel and QA)
<GrueMaster> Arm Server kernel build configuration and tuning -- Should combine with previous.
<ogra_> i think we all agree that we want such a kernel but we need HW first
<ogra_> else it is a waste of efforts
<ogra_> GrueMaster, ++
<GrueMaster> Unified OMAP3/OMAP4 install images
<ogra_> though we should probably have a general kernel configuration session
<ogra_> (covering the config handling for arm in general)
<GrueMaster> How would this work?  Same kernel/u-boot?  Is it possible?
<ogra_> unified images can only work if we have unified MLO and u-boot
<GrueMaster> And kernel.
<ogra_> kernel should already be possible i think
<ogra_> but indeed not if we go on with the TI patches which we have to
<GrueMaster> * All ARM headless images are based on Ubuntu Core,
 * ogra_ just nods
<janimo> GrueMaster, kernel is unified in linaro
<ogra_> move :P
<janimo> uboot to be explored, part of the purpose of the BP
<GrueMaster> oops, missed the wrap.
<ogra_> we dont have headless atm ... if it comes back it will be based on core ... done
<GrueMaster> All ARM headless images are based on Ubuntu Core,
<GrueMaster> except for specific ARM Server Images
<ogra_> not really a spec
<ogra_> rather a "this is what we will use if it comes back"
<GrueMaster> * Explore Codezero Embedded Hypervisor Virtulazation on A9 http://www.l4dev.org/
<GrueMaster> ok
<GrueMaster> This could be fun.
<ogra_> yeah
<GrueMaster> * Server Performance Testing incl Storage
<ogra_> well, thats just a carry over of the server QA from O
<ogra_> or not ?
<ogra_> or an extention to it
<mahmoh> I think storage should be broken out, otherwise this will get big
<GrueMaster> Need more detail.  mahmoh has already been running the phoronix test suite to shake out issues there.
<GrueMaster> Storage will get tested properly once we have hw that has better support.
 * ogra_ is sad that there are so many server specs but not many tech improvements or community/desktop specs ...
<GrueMaster> * ARM Hard float
<ogra_> is that a spec ?
<NCommander> We're about to runout of time sadly
<GrueMaster> It's because we have already rocked the desktop.
<ogra_> we surely need discussion about it
<janimo> move to ubuntu-arm ?
<ogra_> GrueMaster, well, enough ? is the question
<ogra_> well, is there a meeting after us ?
<ogra_> but yeah, else move to -arm and finish that
<NCommander> I'm not sure
<GrueMaster> * Orchestra/Ensemble on ARM
 * ogra_ wonders whats arm specific there 
<GrueMaster> deployment issues apparently.
<mahmoh> * Orchestra/Juju on ARM
<ogra_> but then i dont know enough about it ... though i thought its a management tool
<NCommander> noone elseis here (and actually, the frdge event for the meeting still says Mobile and Tuesday)
<ogra_> lol
<GrueMaster> * Linaro ARM Boot
<ogra_> whats that ?
<GrueMaster> BTHOOM
<ogra_> there are a bunch of boot related things in our build system i would like to change
<GrueMaster> (beats the hell out of me)
<janimo> boot speed maybe?
<ogra_> so having some info what "linaro boot" means would be nice
<GrueMaster> * KVM on ARM
 * GrueMaster cringes
<ogra_> hehe
<ogra_> you asked for it :P
<ogra_> we could also add "libvirt on arm" :)
<GrueMaster> No, I didn't.  I asked for tests to be written for bare metal, then adapted for kvm, not vice versa.
<davidm_> we should add libvirt
<ogra_> argh, that was a joke !
<NCommander> heh
 * ogra_ looks for duct tape for his nasty mouth
<rbasak> It needs to happen eventually!
<GrueMaster> * Server System management on ARM - IPMI
<ogra_> how is that different to the juju spec ??
<GrueMaster> rbasak: So does a solution for bug 1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1 in Ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<ogra_> does it make sense to have two of them ?
<rbasak> :-)
<ogra_> i think we could merge them in one
<ogra_> same for kvm/libvirt
<GrueMaster> * QA Develop automation tests that can run without kvm support (i.e. on raw hardware).
<GrueMaster> har!
<ogra_> hehe, attacking the kvm spec :)
<NCommander> spec to spec combat!
<rbasak> There is a plan to help with that I think
<GrueMaster> I think this is beneficial, because I am always finding bugs on raw hw that don't manifest on kvm.
<rbasak> Get nova to be able to launch metal instances from a pool of available metal
<ogra_> yeah
<rbasak> (maybe via LXC)
<ogra_> sounds trivial
<GrueMaster> * Revisit Server QA tests from Oneiric, enhance and update as needed.
<ogra_> given that we already implemented that :)
<ogra_> (as the panda cluster)
<rbasak> does that use nova?
<ogra_> never heard of nova
<GrueMaster> A lot of the tests this round were random (and some have no tests in any arch).
<ogra_> well, iirc in budapest is was said that this cycle was to determine a better set of tests
<ogra_> so thats an expected follwoup i guess
<GrueMaster> * Compare kernel configs with x86/amd64 configs for for module differences (NFS, VFAT, etc)
<ogra_> shoudl become a general kernel config spec
<ogra_> for arm indeed :)
<GrueMaster> I ran into a lot of qa kernel SRU tests that fail simply because some modules are compiled =Y as opposed to =m.
<GrueMaster> And I also had to postpone some tests because of missing modules.
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> and we have a good bunch of differences to x86 as well
<ogra_> so we should do a general review
<GrueMaster> * One consumer device per cycle programme
<ogra_> yay
<ogra_> so my idea is that we enable one enduser device per cycle
<ogra_> preferably one that is close to images we already have indeed
<ogra_> and that the community can chose which device that is
<janimo> GrueMaster, would be good to have a list of features failing unless modules
<GrueMaster> I disagree on this, only because we got bogged down on 1 and played hot potato with the other.
<janimo> I was thinking of trying to build in as many as possible for bootup speed
<ogra_> GrueMaster, bogged down ?
<janimo> but if it some do not work it'd be good to know ahead
<ogra_> we have ac100 images now ... and we could have nook ones if you had had the time
<GrueMaster> How long have you been working on ac100?
<ogra_> the plan is to deeply involve the community here
<janimo> we could have 5 images per cycle if we had better build tools honestly
<ogra_> ac100 isnt comparable
<ogra_> i had to invent a totally new image type for it
<janimo> the time spent is not as much coding but debugging the innards of the build system
<GrueMaster> Problem with nook images is lack of touch screen keyboard in ubiquity.
<ogra_> eaily solved :)
<ogra_> *easily
<ogra_> you didnt tell me
<mahmoh> the idea is a good one, maybe choose a family of similar products and then a target to work from
<GrueMaster> I was just saying once we get the tools shacken out, we shouldn't limit it to one.
<janimo> ogra_, I doubt the community has better chances of getting something up with cdimage/debian-cd as they are used now
<ogra_> anyway, we can discuss that later, thats my spec proposal and the masterplan is actually to grow community
<NCommander> +1
<janimo> but we need the community for upstream work (kernel etc) and testing
<GrueMaster> Sounds good.
<ogra_> janimo, thats the part we should be offering
<ogra_> debian-cd/cdimage stuff
<janimo> as they are now they are... juju
<ogra_> the community still needs to supply the external bits
<ogra_> anyway, lets do details later and let NCommander close the meeting :)
<NCommander> closing in 3
<NCommander> 2
<NCommander> 1
<NCommander> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Sep 15 16:14:16 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-15-15.01.moin.txt
<ogra_> *clap clap clap*
<janimo> hear you later
<juancarlospaco> Êâ¿Ê
<cyphermox> tenach, JoeVancouver, jedijf, Z37A, JoseeAntonioR: just checking if you're all there ;)
<JoeVancouver> I am here :)
<JoseeAntonioR> I am here!
<Z37A> I'm here
<cyphermox> awesome. we'll start soon
<JoseeAntonioR> jedijf is in the channel list, so he should be here
<cyphermox> yup
<jedijf> i is
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-09-16
<JoseeAntonioR> Again, tenach isn't here.
<pleia2> he has trouble making it to meeting due to his schedule, we're on top of it :)
<JoseeAntonioR> Oh, well.
<cyphermox> you all ready to start?
<jedijf> yes
<JoseeAntonioR> Yes (:
<Z37A> yes of course
<cyphermox> #startmeeting Americas Regional Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Sep 16 00:01:35 2011 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Americas Regional Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> #topic Ubuntu Membership
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Americas Regional Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Membership
<cyphermox> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the Americas meeting for September 15, 2011. The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/Americas
<cyphermox> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<cyphermox> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<cyphermox> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<cyphermox> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<cyphermox> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<cyphermox> #voters cyphermox Pendulum pleia2 beuno n0rman greg-g dinda1
<meetingology> Warning: Nick not in channel: greg-g
<meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum beuno cyphermox dinda1 greg-g n0rman pleia2
<cyphermox> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<cyphermox> I think we'll actually skip tenach until he shows up ;)
<cyphermox> #subtopic Membership application for Joe Liau (JoeVancouver)
<JoeVancouver> Hello, I am here. The link to my wiki is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JoeLiau
<cyphermox> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JoeLiau
 * pleia2 thinks JoeVancouver looks suspiciously like a jawa
<JoeVancouver> :) I'm Joe Liau, the "Master Presenter" for Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo (UVLC). I've been an Ubuntu contributor for 2 years, primarily as one of the core members of UVLC. I have also participated in Ubuntu forums, bug reporting, and Ubuntu marketing efforts.
<pleia2> JoeVancouver: thinking of making an update U video with Unity screenshots? :)
<JoeVancouver> Yes, I would like to re-create a video like that
<dinda1> Looks like the UVLC is quite active
<JoeVancouver> It is quite out of date
<JoeVancouver> Yes, UVLC is active. The video is out of date :P
<pleia2> JoeVancouver: what inspired you to join your LoCo?
<JoeVancouver> I am naturally drawn to communities, and I enjoy helping others. When I joined the LoCo it was really starting to emerge and grow, and I wanted to part of that action.
<pleia2> cool
<cyphermox> I think all the board members are ready to vote, so...
<cyphermox> #vote Joe Liau (JoeVancouver) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Joe Liau (JoeVancouver) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<dinda1> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dinda1
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<pleia2> thank you for having such a great wiki page, makes it easy for us :)
<Pendulum> (sorry, some keyboarding fail there)
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Joe Liau (JoeVancouver) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<JoeVancouver> You're welcome. Thank you for taking the time to review.
<pleia2> congrats and welcome, JoeVancouver!
<rrnwexec> congratulations joe! on behalf of all your friends at UVLC. you rock :)
<jedijf> congrats JoeVancouver
<cyphermox> congratulations JoeVancouver
<cyphermox> gah, I always have trouble spelling congrats...
<Pendulum> JoeVancouver: congrats JoeVancouver!
<dinda1> congratulations! keep up the great work
<pleia2> oh, btw, if anyone is here to cheer for a candidate, they can do so at any time during their "interview"
<pleia2> no need to wait for us to ask you to cheer :)
<Pendulum> cyphermox: that's why I stop with 'congrats' ;-)
<JoeVancouver> Thanks everyone for your time and accolades !
<JoseeAntonioR> Congratulations, JoeVancouver.
<cyphermox> Now you'll be able to add your blog to the planet and bring the info about what's being done in Vancouver first hand :)
<cyphermox> #subtopic Membership application for Jim Fisher (jedijf)
<jedijf> Hi. My name is Jim Fisher, jedijf on irc. I sell bread. I am a geek.
<jedijf> I am 47 years old, and stay young by promoting Ubuntu wherever and
<jedijf> as often as I can. I like to be challenged, and am always looking
<jedijf> for projects that Ubuntu can be a part of. I like coffee, espresso,
<jedijf> and redbull.
<pleia2> a jawa and now a jedi
<jedijf> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jedijf
<cyphermox> and we have our own Princess Leia :D
<pleia2> star wars theme here at the americas board meeting tonight :)
<jedijf> ++
<cyphermox> jedijf: you sell bread. do you take orders for bread in the ubuntu logo? ;D
<jedijf> i have and do!
<jedijf> pleia2: can prolly find it faster than i
<JonathanD> I'd like to mention the following. I organize and execute a number of events annually in the Philly area with a foss orientation. jedijf has been instrumental to fosscon, a foss conference we held here this summer, as well as multiple of our geeknic picnics (he has very graciously provided baked goods to these events, as well.)
<dinda1> I just followed the links to the NTR project - very nice
<JonathanD> I consider him a pillar of the Philadelphia FOSS community.
<cyphermox> great!
<jedijf> dinda1: i plan on restarting that
<pleia2> my finding fu fails me, but ubuntu bread did exist
<jedijf> it took ntr a bit to come around to the concepts we were showing them
<jedijf> pleia2: that'll be my first planet blog
<jedijf> :)
<pleia2> for the record, jedijf was instrumental in getting *me* more involved in my first loco :)
<cyphermox> jedijf: I see the last event in your page was about a year ago, I suspect that it's just an oversight, since fosscon was mentioned now?
<pleia2> so he's to blame for all of this
<cyphermox> pleia2: oh
<JonathanD> Fosscon was in July.
<cyphermox> JonathanD: thanks. That's what I suspected :)
<jedijf> cyphermox: i stopped branding my events as loco events, but now that i am team contact there will be more LoCo follow thru
<jedijf> i am kinda baranded the ubuntu guy throughout all of my affiliations
<jedijf> branded
<cyphermox> :)
<dinda1> you've got some great endorsements
<cyphermox> okay, we're convinced it's voting time :)
<jedijf> i've got great people around me
<jedijf> and some who only come back to visit
<cyphermox> #vote Jim Fisher (jedijf) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Jim Fisher (jedijf) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<dinda1> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dinda1
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<nullcore> +1
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<cyphermox> nullcore: thanks for showing your support :)
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Jim Fisher (jedijf) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<nullcore> =)
<pleia2> woohoo, congrats jedijf!
<jedijf> thank you all - pleia2 oreo cake in the mail ;)
<pleia2> much deserved :)
<pleia2> lol
<nullcore> how do i apply for membership?
<rmg51> :-[
<JoeVancouver> Congratulations, jedijf!
<cyphermox> jedijf: an amazing application throughout, congrats
<nullcore> i already applied to ubuntu-hardened
<Pendulum> JoeVancouver: congrats!
<pleia2> nullcore: details here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership
<nullcore> thanks pleia2
<Pendulum> jedijf: congrats!
<jedijf> good luck to the rest of the crowd
<JoseeAntonioR> Congratulations, jedijf!
<jedijf> thank you cc americas
<cyphermox> #subtopic Membership application for Juan Manuel "Z37A" Zele (Z37A)
<cyphermox> Z37A: it's your turn :)
<Z37A> Hello people, i'm Juan Manuel, and here is my wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/z37a
<Z37A> I found more practical to separate language
<Z37A> but because of time I could not finish a version in French
<dinda1> the English one is good :)
<Z37A> thanks!
<Z37A> I'm still studying English
<pleia2> Z37A: I notice that you've done events in schools, is Ubuntu in many schools there in AR?
<Z37A> and french....
<Z37A> The gouvernament project "Conectar Igualdad" includes Ubuntu in laptops per students
<pleia2> wow, that's great
<juancarlospaco> local gob are distributing netbooks with Ubuntu on all schools
<Z37A> yes, at the first includes rxart, then ubuntu
<jedijf> Z37A's_local_gov++
<Z37A> I contact with teachers in ET36 to participate with free software conferences in the ET36
<Z37A> for this reason i helped with this conferences to include free software
<pleia2> great ubucon photos :)
<juancarlospaco> great work of Juan Manuel at ET36, bring a lot of people to mailing lists recently
<cyphermox> #vote Juan Manuel "Z37A" Zele (Z37A) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Juan Manuel "Z37A" Zele (Z37A) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<dinda1> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dinda1
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<cyphermox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Juan Manuel "Z37A" Zele (Z37A) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<unimix> gret
<cyphermox> congrats Z37A
<JoseeAntonioR> Congratulations, Z37A!
<pleia2> congrats and welcome Z37A :)
<Z37A> thanks people!
<JoeVancouver> Congrats, Z37A!
<unimix> great Z37A !! You deserve it !!
<juancarlospaco> Congratulations!
<unimix> good work Z37A !!
<juancarlospaco> :D deserved membership
<Z37A> thanks unimix, juancarlospaco!
<cyphermox> still no tenach huh
<cyphermox> #subtopic Membership application for JosÃ© Antonio Rey (JoseeAntonioR)
<JoseeAntonioR> Hello everyone. My name is JosÃ© Antonio Rey. I am 14 years old, and I am located in Peru. My wiki link is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JoseeAntonioR
<JoseeAntonioR> Sorry, but I have testimonials in Spanish.
<pleia2> no problem, google translate helps :)
<cyphermox> it's fine for me, good practice :)
<JoseeAntonioR> :)
<pleia2> JoseeAntonioR: does your school use Ubuntu yet?
<JoseeAntonioR> Not actually. With Diopj4, we've been trying to introduce it.
<JoseeAntonioR> The principal did not paid much attention to the project.
<JoseeAntonioR> He said he was focusing on another thing, but we're trying again in 2 weeks (:
<JoseeAntonioR> Diopj4 is here, in case you need his testimonial.
<pleia2> hello Diopj4 :)
<pleia2> JoseeAntonioR: I know how difficult it can be here in the US to get Ubuntu in to schools, it's great to see people making the effort elsewhere too
<Diopj4> hello (:
<fernandodx15> I'm in his school too
<pleia2> wow, great
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 Actually, I'm trying to expand the use of Ubuntu in all Peru.
<pleia2> Peru has llamas :)
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 I would like to see a change in the next 2 or 3 years, as there are many options apart from Windows.
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 Right!
<pleia2> JoseeAntonioR: how long have you been working with Ubuntu?
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 1 year aproximately.
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 But I have done a lot of investigation as I had some problems, and I have learnt a lot.
<dinda1> JoseeAntonioR: are there any organized meetings or events around Ubuntu in your area?
<JoseeAntonioR> dinda1 The Peruvian LoCo team is not too active, so there aren't many.
<JoseeAntonioR> dinda1 We're having a conference soon, but Ubuntu is not the main topic.
<dinda1> can you give us any suggestion how we might help support your effots?
<JoseeAntonioR> dinda1 I think just having more material on the web would be great.
<pleia2> JoseeAntonioR: are you familiar with spreadubuntu.com ?
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 Yes, I am. I have printed some posters from there.
<pleia2> oh good :)
<dinda1> JoseeAntonioR: yes, I see you've looked at the desktop course - way out date unfortunately :(
<JoseeAntonioR> dinda1 Oh.
<pleia2> I know akgraner is working on something now
<dinda1> JoseeAntonioR: yes and others are hoping to help too
<pleia2> hopefully we'll have some updated materials this next cycle
<JoseeAntonioR> In my opinion, having official materian from Canonical to spread Ubuntu would be great.
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 I hope so.
<dinda1> I have some materials geared toward teachers and school administrators, I'll try to send them to you
<JoseeAntonioR> dinda1 Great! Thanks!
<cyphermox> dinda1: nice
<cyphermox> #vote JosÃ© Antonio Rey (JoseeAntonioR) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: JosÃ© Antonio Rey (JoseeAntonioR) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<pleia2> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from pleia2
<dinda1> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from dinda1
<Pendulum> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from Pendulum
<cyphermox> +1, nice work, please keep it up :)
<meetingology> +1, nice work, please keep it up :) received from cyphermox
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: JosÃ© Antonio Rey (JoseeAntonioR) to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<pleia2> great work JoseeAntonioR :) welcome!
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 Thanks!
<JoseeAntonioR> I will keep the good work up.
<fernandodx15> iÂ´ve been looking up the job of JoseeAntonioR, and i really think that he deserves the membership.
<cyphermox> JoseeAntonioR: I look forward to your user days presentation :)
<JoeVancouver> Congratulations! JoseeAntonioR
<pleia2> and thanks again for volunteering for User Days, let me know if you have any more questions :)
<JoseeAntonioR> cyphermox I will be preparing the class tomorrow (:
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 Thanks!
<cyphermox> fernandodx15: it's great to see classmates coming to cheer too :)
<JoseeAntonioR> JoeVancouver Thanks!
<fernandodx15> thanks! :)
<pleia2> great meeting, thanks everyone!
<JoseeAntonioR> Aren't we waiting for tenach?
<cyphermox> and in the great words of Bugs Bunny, That's all folks!
<dinda1> nice to see so many great candidates being recognized
<pleia2> hopefully he can make the next meeting :)
<JoseeAntonioR> pleia2 I hope so.
<cyphermox> #voters everyone
<meetingology> Everyone can now vote
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Sep 16 00:47:48 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-16-00.01.moin.txt
<fernandodx15> congratulations JoseeAntonioR!
<JoseeAntonioR> fernandodx15 Thanks!
<juancarlospaco> congrats all new members!, keep working...,  see you on the interwebz
<JoseeAntonioR> Goodbye everyone!
 * cyphermox gives meetingology a cookie
 * charlie-tca waves
 * skaet waves
 * stgraber waves
<skaet> time to get this started.... :)
<ScottK> o/
<skaet> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Sep 16 15:00:51 2011 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AlanBell/mootbot.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<skaet> [TOPIC] Release general overview - skaet
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release general overview - skaet
<skaet> Agenda can be found: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2011-09-16
<skaet> .
<skaet> 11.10 FeatureFreeze,  UserInterfaceFreeze, BetaFreeze now in effect
<skaet> 11.10 Beta 2: Sept 22, 2011.
<skaet> 11.10 Release Date: October 13, 2011
<skaet> .
<skaet> Thank you to those teams who've been updating their burndowns over last week, they're starting to look a bit better.   We're still a bit behind where we should be at this point in the cycle, so would appreciate it if all the teams and individuals could please review the work items and make sure the status is accurate.
<skaet> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/
<skaet> .
<skaet> Beta bugs have hit!  Lots of bugs showing up on the lists,  needing fixes.
<skaet> Please review the overall lists for the release as well as your individual team lists for bugs that may have been overlooked.
<skaet> [LINK] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+bugs?field.tag=-ftbfs
<skaet> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-11.10-beta-2
<skaet> .
<skaet> For those who want to see what bugs are showing up on the release list during the week, without waiting for the weekly agenda to go up on the WIKI,  a new hourly updated report page is now available!  (Big Thanks to bjf!)
<skaet> [LINK] http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/rls-mgr-o-tracking-bugs.html
<skaet> If you see a package being looked at against the wrong team,  let me or one of the defect analysts know, and we'll adjust.
<skaet> .
<skaet> There has been some discussion on #ubuntu-release this week about whether we should unfreeze the archive between Beta Freeze and Final Freeze (1 week interval).  For those interested,  we'll be discussing this after we finish the roundtable part of the agenda.
<skaet> ..
<skaet> any questions before moving on into the round table?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Hardware Certification team update - mlegris
<mlegris1> hi all o/
<mlegris1> [Week 37 Testing Report]
<mlegris1> [link] http://people.canonical.com/~hwcert/hw-testing/week37_2011.html
<mlegris1> .
<mlegris1> lots of bug fixes have come in as well since A3, the team has been busy verifying those
<mlegris1> Bugs:
<mlegris1> * Â Bug #810145 - unity-panel-service crashes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 810145 in unity (Ubuntu Oneiric) "unity-panel-service crashed with SIGABRT in __kernel_vsyscall()" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/810145
<mlegris1> ..
<skaet> Thanks mlegris1
<skaet> are there any bugs you consider blockers for beta 2 at this point?
<mlegris1> I'd have to review the list, but no blockers other then the individual one we logged against systems
<skaet> ok mlegris1,  please let me know offline if there are some that the release team should keep an eye open for accepting while we're in beta freeze
<mlegris1> sure thing skaet
<skaet> any other questions for mlegris1?
<skaet> btw - there are a couple of rearrangements from the usual order today.   just a head's up for those giving summaries ;)
<skaet> [TOPIC] MOTU team update - Laney
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: MOTU team update - Laney
<Laney> people have been slowly chipping away at FTBFS bugs
<skaet> :)
<Laney> mainly in response to colin's call for help on -devel I suppose
<Laney> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=ftbfs
<Laney> we're trying to create some data so that we can see how well we're doing on FTBFS over time
<Laney> NBS is also looking good for us now
<Laney> ..
<skaet> Thanks Laney.
<ogra_> arm could need some love of a GLES expert ...
<ogra_> (in universe)
<ogra_> a big chunk of ftbfs there are GL/GLES related
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> +1
<skaet> any other comments or questions for Laney?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Security team update - jdstrand
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Security team update - jdstrand
<jdstrand> hi!
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<jdstrand> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/canonical-security.html
<jdstrand> Burn down is below the trend line. The remaining work items should all be either bugs or items not tied to the release schedule.
<jdstrand> Thanks to the desktop team for fixing up the lightdm bugs I mentioned last week. :)  Looking at the list of oneiric bugs, there aren't any others worth highlighting.
<jdstrand> ..
<skaet> Thanks jdstrand!
<skaet> any questions for jdstrand?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kernel team update - ogasawara
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kernel team update - ogasawara
<ogasawara> Overall status is reported at the first link below.  Burn down for Oneiric Beta-2 is at the second link below.  Burndown for the cycle is at the third link:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/canonical-kernel-team-ubuntu-11.10-beta-2.html
<ogasawara> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-kernel-tasks.html
<ogasawara> We uploaded linux-3.0.0-11.18 prior to Kernel Freeze.  Going forward, any patches we apply are subject to our SRU policy.  I suspect we'll have a few upstream stable updates and misc bug fixes we'll be pulling in prior to release.  We are currently trending above our Beta-2 burndown chart but are below overall.  The remaining work items are not release critical.
<ogasawara> Of the remaining bugs called out on the agenda against the kernel, status is as follows:
<ogasawara> #542660 - Looks to be related to EFI boot not loading the video bios into ram.
<ogasawara> #710733 - Confirmed against Oneiric, not release critical, investigation ongonig.
<ogasawara> #714862 - Assigned to kernel dev, investigation ongoing.
<ogasawara> #746133 - Assigned to kernel dev, investigation ongoing.
<ogasawara> #754711 - On a 3.0 oneiric kernel, system now suspends but doesn't resume.  systemtap debug scripts to help investigate recently fixed for Oneiric, see 815944.
<ogasawara> #758486 - Told that TI will push a fix with the next BSP.
<ogasawara> #760131 - Partly fixed in Oneiric and soon natty, more analysis ongoing upstream.
<ogasawara> #761082 - Confirmed against Oneiric, investigation ongoing.
<ogasawara> #790712 - The order 5 allocation seems to be bogus and non-fatal; further investigation ongoing.
<ogasawara> #814325 - Issue confirmed upstream, actively under investigation by multiple devs.
<ogasawara> #836250 - Assigned to kernel dev, investigation ongoing.
<ogasawara> #820466 - Fix Released
<ogasawara> Questions?
<ogasawara> ..
<skaet> Thanks ogasawara!
<skaet> do you want me to change the coding of 710733 so it doesn't show up on the list?
<skaet> since its not release critical?
<ogasawara> skaet: yah, that'd be great
<skaet> ogasawara, ok, will do.
<skaet> any other questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Foundations team update - cjwatson
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Foundations team update - cjwatson
<cjwatson> Feature status: unlikely to see much further progress for Oneiric, although not all the work items are officially postponed yet.
<cjwatson> multiarch-translations has landed in LP; there'll be one further tweak here but that's essentially done.
<cjwatson> NBS was briefly clear earlier today!  Excellent progress on build failures.  We should be in good shape for beta-2 in terms of archive consistency.
<cjwatson> Bug status: drowning.  Mostly I've just been going around poking people to try to get updates but am not having complete luck so far.  A selection of specifics:
<cjwatson> Bug 829486: apparently specific to test rebuild, unmilestoned
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 829486 in autogen (Ubuntu Oneiric) "autogen version 1:5.12-0.1ubuntu1 failed to build in oneiric" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/829486
<cjwatson> Bug 772082: fixed in oneiric, closed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 772082 in gnutls26 (Ubuntu Natty) "certificate chain validation failure" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/772082
<cjwatson> Bug 764893: belatedly applied Surbhi's patch, closed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 764893 in os-prober (Ubuntu Natty) "os-prober: does not detect Ubuntu in btrfs subvolume" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/764893
<cjwatson> Bug 848938: will look at this after the meeting
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 848938 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) ""Download updates" unavailable after connecting to WiFi" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/848938
<cjwatson> Bug 803547: should be able to backport from Debian experimental, will do that after the meeting
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 803547 in live-build (Ubuntu Oneiric) "live-build lacks EXT4 support for binary image types" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/803547
<cjwatson> Bug 757631: I expect we can add a warning for this case in time for beta-2
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 757631 in partman-btrfs (Ubuntu Oneiric) "grub-probe fails on lvm-encrypted install with btrfs" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/757631
<cjwatson> Bug 749702: accessibility help would be very welcome!
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 749702 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Oneiric) ""Try Ubuntu" screen-reads as "Try $RELEASE"" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/749702
<cjwatson> Bug 819328: should be fixed now
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 819328 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Oneiric) "[Oneiric] update-manager crashed with DBusException in _run(): org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.NoReply: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken." [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/819328
<cjwatson> Bug 812023: should no longer cause an error, although some more work needed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 812023 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Oneiric) "software-center crashed with DBusException in _convert_dbus_exception(): org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.UnknownMethod: Method "GetAll" with signature "s" on interface "org.freedesktop.DBus.Properties" doesn't exist" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/812023
<cjwatson> I'd also like to flag bug 850172 which is resisting analysis and will likely need some tracing through cdimage.  I hope to look at this by the weekend but it's possible it may affect other images.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 850172 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Xubuntu Oneiric Alternate images fail to find abiword dependencies when building images" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/850172
<cjwatson> At this point you should probably not expect anything else not already milestoned to be fixed for beta-2.
<cjwatson> ..
<skaet> Thanks cjwatson!    Appreciate seeing all those fixes today.
<skaet> charlie-tca, and other flavor leads, note 850172.   Suspect you won't be getting good alternates until this is sorted.
 * jdstrand was also excited to see NBS clear. I thought the report generation was messed up :P
 * charlie-tca been following it
<skaet> lol
<skaet> any questions for cjwatson?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Server team update - Daviey
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Server team update - Daviey
<Daviey> hey!
<skaet> :)
<Daviey> yy
<Daviey> Stability is currently quite good, with early signs looking like a stable Beta2.
<Daviey> Things still wished to be achieved for Beta 2:
<Daviey>  - New upstream snapshot of nova, glance and swift. (Probably targetted for Tuesday)
<Daviey>      - We are trying to get some fixes landed upstream, rather than patching.
<Daviey>  - cobbler-enrol entering the archive, and with hope - seeded.
<Daviey>  - A few other minor bug fixes.
<Daviey> Nova - is now in main. \o/
<Daviey> Waiting on a security review for socat bug 829234
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 829234 in socat (Ubuntu) "[MIR] socat" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/829234
<Daviey> Glance seems to be wedged on lack of SSL support.  Bug 801299 .. Probably need security team ack that they are 'ok' with this lack of feature.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 801299 in glance (Ubuntu) "[MIR]glance" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/801299
<Daviey> Work items:
<Daviey> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-oneiric/group/topic-oneiric-server-overview.html
<Daviey>  - Has less relevance at this stage.
<Daviey> Bugs:
<Daviey> We are currently tracking for release:
<Daviey> http://status.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<Daviey> (As always, if there are any missing on that list - please let me know as soon as possible)
<Daviey> ..
<skaet> Thanks Daviey.
<Daviey> Questions?
<skaet> which of the bugs on your list do you want the release team to keep an eye out for, and let through?
<Daviey> skaet: I think that might be better tackled on demand?
<jdstrand> I hope to look at glance and socat MITs next week (security review)
<jdstrand> s/MITs/MIRs/
<Daviey> jdstrand: Thanks \o/
<skaet> Daviey, lets talk about it after the meeting then.  thnx.
<Daviey> skaet: rocking.
<skaet> [TOPIC] ARM team update - ogra_
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM team update - ogra_
 * ogra_ waves+
<skaet> :)
<ogra_> = Full Status is at: =
<ogra_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARMTeam/ReleaseStatus/Oneiric
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> = Summary =
<ogra_>  - AC100 images are ready, tested and regulary building
<ogra_>  - Cleanup of jasper is still ongoing
<ogra_>  - mx5 should build now but still remains untested
<ogra_>  - Server QA testing goes on
<ogra_>  - Sound tests on omap4 were successfull, it seems all to work fine.
<ogra_>  - Some not yet researched network issues show up on omap3 with the recent x-loader/u-boot
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> = Image Status =
<ogra_>  - Desktop images were suffering archive skew again and afterwards the omap3/mx5 builder hung, we hope everything is fine again before monday.
<ogra_>  - Server images build and install fine
<ogra_>  - Netboot images work fine
<ogra_> --
<ogra_> = Specs =
<ogra_>  - Entire http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-arm.html
<ogra_>  - B2 http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/ubuntu-arm-ubuntu-11.10-beta-2.html
<ogra_> --
<skaet> Thanks ogra_ !
<ogra_> :)
 * skaet keeps fingers crossed all those nice new builders help clear up the backlog. 
<ogra_> oh, there is one pending u-boot upload for omap3 pending FFe review
<ogra_> ..
<ogra_> (just FYI)
<ogra_> ..
<skaet> ogra_, ok.  :)
<skaet> any questions for ogra_ ?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Linaro update - rsalveti or fabo
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Linaro update - rsalveti or fabo
<fabo> o/
<skaet> :)
<fabo> = Developer Platform =
<fabo>  - First version of gcc-linaro package at Linaro Overlay PPA. It could be useful for P
<fabo>  - On going debugging for LTTng 2.x. Goal is to have it working for Linaro 11.09
<fabo>  - bug 849337 will turn into a FFe once the libjpeg-turbo is properly reviewed at http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/p/libjpeg-turbo (new package upload). Not sure if it'll make for Oneiric, would be good to have some feedback if it's desirable to have it at least available at universe.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 849337 in libjpeg-turbo "FFe: include libjpeg-turbo, a derivative of libjpeg that uses SIMD instructions and additional optimizations" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/849337
<fabo>  - May need another fix for u-boot-linaro, fixing OMAP 4460 ES1.1 support
<fabo>  - FFe for u-boot-linaro, bug 851974
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 851974 in u-boot-linaro (Ubuntu) "FFe: Misc fixes for new silicon and boards" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/851974
<fabo> --
<fabo> = Toolchain WG =
<fabo>  - Linaro GCC 4.6 and 4.5 2011.09 released
<fabo>    #823548 Can't use -flto with skia
<fabo>    #823711 libvirt version 0.9.2-4ubuntu8 failed to build on armel
<fabo>    #827990 internal compiler error: in decode_addr_const, at varasm.c:2632
<fabo>    #836401 ICE on a | (b << negative-constant)
<fabo>    #838994 ICE building perl w/ -marm
<fabo>    #843775 ICE optimizing widening multiply-and-accumulate
<fabo>  - Linaro QEMU 2011.09 released
<rsalveti> FFe for u-boot-linaro is still in progress, we should have the debdiff today/monday
<fabo>  - Linaro GDB 7.3 2011.09 released
<fabo> = Misc =
<rsalveti> and for libjpeg-turbo is something I'd like to check if ubuntu thinks it could be useful to have at least at universe
<rsalveti> this can help improving jpeg performance at arm and also x86
<fabo>  - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PReleaseInterlock updated with Linaro dates
<fabo> ..
<slangasek> I think it would be very nice to have libjpeg-turbo in universe
<rsalveti> package is done, did initial review and should be good to upload, but would prefer another to review it
<skaet> Thanks fabo and rsalveti. :)
<skaet> re: libjpeg-turbon in universe - I agree with slangasek.
<skaet> and thanks fabo for updaing the interlock. :)
<rsalveti> great, will sync this off-line then at #ubuntu-dev later
<rsalveti> ..
<skaet> any questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Ubuntu One Team - ??
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu One Team - ??
<skaet> is Cipaca or joshuahoover around?
<skaet> Chipaca even. :P
<skaet> [TOPIC] QA team update -  pgraner
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: QA team update -  pgraner
<pgraner> skaet, :)
<skaet> :)
<pgraner> All of the issues found at Beta one are mostly looked at and triaged:
<pgraner> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-bugs/reports/oneiric-milestone-bugs.html
<pgraner> Automated testing is complete (all that we intend to implement) for this cycle with the exection of automated boot time testing. Which should be complete today.
<pgraner> I'll follow up to u-devel with more detail in email.
<pgraner> Prep for beta-2, working with Server Team for additional testing.
<pgraner> ..
<skaet> Thanks pgraner!   any questions for QA?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Team update - pre-sent summary
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Team update - pre-sent summary
<skaet>  GNOME 3.1.92 is due on Monday; expected that most changes will be translation updates and minor bug fixes, so we will be careful with uploading these during the beta-2 freeze. glib and GTK were already updated on Thursday to the latest upstream fixes from git, to minimize potential breakage next Monday.
<skaet> - Landed LibreOffice 3.4.3.
<skaet> - Lots of good bug fixes this week.
<skaet> - Investigated main culprits for boot speed regressions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/11.10/BootSpeedAnalysis; the biggest problem has a fix and is just waiting for an (unrelated) string freeze exception. The others are most probably P material.
<skaet> - Cleaned up remaining work items; most of the remaining issues are now about testing, documenting, and planning for the next release, and there are a few small targets of opportunity left. Code/distro wise this is pretty much done now.
<skaet> pitti, seb128, and kenvandine are on vacation today.   They'll be back on monday though.
<skaet> ..
<skaet> any one have general concerns to raise?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Desktop Experience Team Update - dbarth
<dbarth> hi skaet
<skaet> :)
<dbarth> formal report at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/OneiricReleaseStatus
<dbarth> essentially: 48 bug fixes on u-3d, a lot less on u-2d, but that's good news too
<dbarth> few updates on compiz for beta-2, on purpose
<dbarth> but we have a few more left for next week, incl. .96 with more bug fixes
<dbarth> and hopefully something for the stack problems (still on that)
<dbarth> indicators work see bug reports
<dbarth> and CJK nailed for good
<skaet> :)
<dbarth> and that's it nostly
<dbarth> ..
<skaet> Thanks dbarth.
<dbarth> i'm not finished with triaging the new bugs on your radar, but will send an update later today
<skaet> Agenda list has more bugs than that on your radar list....
<skaet> hehe
<dbarth> right
<skaet> thanks for the update later.  :)
<skaet> any one have questions for dbarth?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Kubuntu Team update - ScottK
<ScottK> - I went through and updated the Kubuntu spec status.  Most of what's left is not tied to the release cycle.  If we can find a safe way to do it, we may still try to land plasma-mobile/active changes for an updated tech preview.
<ScottK> - The two Beta 2 milestoned bugs on your list are fixed.  One of the other two lacks enough information to work on and the other is waiting for upstream.
<ScottK> - We have, unfortunately, have had to rebuild all KDE packages in Main to fix a desktop file translation issue.  Most of these are uploaded and it shouldn't impact Beta 2.
<ScottK> - We could really use a core-dev to look at a couple of important patches for Qt and upload today.  didrocks is already committed to compiz work and the Kubuntu team is very short on core-dev today.
<ScottK> ..
<skaet> Thanks ScottK!   appreciate the detail.
<skaet> any questions for ScottK?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Edubuntu Team update - stgraber or highvoltage
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Edubuntu Team update - stgraber or highvoltage
<stgraber> Hi everyone!
<stgraber> This week we finally got rid of sabayon, pessulus and nanny as these aren't working after the switch to gtk3/dconf/...
<stgraber> Also updated our slideshow accordingly (disabled some slides, no impact on translation).
<stgraber> Did a last minute edubuntu-live upload to get everything translated for beta2.
<stgraber> Other than that everything looks good for Edubuntu, looking forward to beta2.
<stgraber> ..
<stgraber> Questions?
<skaet> Thanks stgraber!   sounds good.  :)
 * skaet looks around for questions?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Xubuntu Team update - charlie-tca
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Xubuntu Team update - charlie-tca
<charlie-tca> Good morning
<charlie-tca> here are some serious issues that we are trying to get fixed. These are the most critical bugs we are looking at:
<charlie-tca> * #845549: Do not ship /etc/lightdm/lightdm-gtk-greeter.conf - blocks Xubuntu using our own theme; should be in-work by robert_ancell and pitti
<charlie-tca> * #847514: Convert Xubuntu CD to dh_python2 - inwork
<charlie-tca> cjwatson briefed this one already:
<charlie-tca> * #850172: Xubuntu Oneiric Alternate images fail to find abiword dependencies when building images - For reasons unknown, the server intermittently decides the files are missing. They have been verified as being in the right place, but the server is not accepting them. It is very erratic, and respins will sometimes work.
<charlie-tca> Any questions?
<charlie-tca> ..
<skaet> Thanks charlie-tca!   will keep an eye on those 3.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Lubuntu Team update - gilir
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lubuntu Team update - gilir
<gilir> Hi :)
<gilir> Not much to report this week.
<skaet> :)
<gilir> We adjusted the artwork (login + slideshow) to be ready for the final release.
<gilir> Still working on bugs triaging, in preparation for beta 2 testing.
<gilir> It will be the focus for next week.
<gilir> ..
<skaet> Thanks gilir.   Ok,  let me know off line if there are any blockers after you finish your triaging.
<cjwatson> charlie-tca: it might not be intermittent; all the failures were in a contiguous block, it wasn't that it came and went.  So it could be fallout from the syncproxy.u.c replacement
<cjwatson> (although I don't know how)
<skaet> any questions for gilir?
<charlie-tca> but we had the same fails during beta1, and respins had to be done every spin
<cjwatson> no, you had different failures
<charlie-tca> Oh, Okay
<cjwatson> definitely not the same category of problem
<cjwatson> (and we adjusted cron job timing to work around the concurrency problems that were triggering the previous failures)
<skaet> [TOPIC] Toolchain update - slangasek
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Toolchain update - slangasek
<slangasek> a buffer overflow was found this week in the patch for multiarch handling of compiler search paths
<slangasek> gcc-4.6 has been uploaded to fix this; there is no confirmed impact of this bug on our architectures (sheerly by luck), but better safe than sorry.  The patch itself only changes the size of a string buffer, it has no impact on the code output
<slangasek> the other frontends / versions are in the process of being staged, and will be let into the archive as buildd time allows.  None except gcc-4.6 have any impact on the CDs, and gcc-4.6 should be built for all archs well before the start of milestone mastering.
<slangasek> ..
<skaet> Thanks slangasek.
<cjwatson> gcc-4.4 has been uploaded too FWIW
<charlie-tca> o/
<skaet> ogasawara, ^ FYI.
<skaet> go charlie-tca
<ogasawara> skaet: thanks
<charlie-tca> My day to be wrong.
<charlie-tca> bug 847514 is done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 847514 in python-debian (Ubuntu Oneiric) "Convert Xubuntu CD to dh_python2" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/847514
<charlie-tca> ..
<cjwatson> Good; it would be getting rather late for it if it weren't :-)
<charlie-tca> well, I got one right, anyway
<skaet> :)
<skaet> any questions for slangasek?
<skaet> [TOPIC] Archive Freeze status after Beta2.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Archive Freeze status after Beta2.
<skaet> We have a week between beta 2 coming out and final freeze.
<skaet> We didn't clarify earlier whether the archive would be unfrozen or not in that interval.
<skaet> ScottK and infinity would like to keep it frozen.   Does anyone on the release team disagree?
<ScottK> Last cycle we left it frozen and that seemed to work well.
<cjwatson> I'm OK with it remaining frozen
<cjwatson> it's more work but meh
<Laney> what will the policy be for uploads?
<skaet> uploads can happen,  but release team members will need to assess and let them through.
<ScottK> Laney: For unseeded Universe it's push it through until Universe final freeze.
<slangasek> I agree with ScottK and infinity; having things unfrozen before the last beta milestone and final release is risky
<ScottK> For the rest, it's use your best judgement about risk versus benefit.
<skaet> ok,  sounds like we have concensus then.   It will remain frozen.
<skaet> I'll make it explicit via email to ubuntu-devel next week.
<skaet> [TOPIC] Any other business?  - all
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Any other business?  - all
 * skaet looking around for hands...
<skaet> not seeing any..
<ScottK> \o
<skaet> ok, ScottK
<ScottK> For release team members that aren't archive admins, feel free to poke me if you've reviewed something and it should be accepted.
<ScottK> I'm usually around.
<ScottK> ..
<skaet> Thanks ScottK.  :)
 * Laney usually just yells in #-release
<ScottK> That works too
<Laney> but ta
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Sep 16 16:02:19 2011 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2011/ubuntu-meeting.2011-09-16-15.00.moin.txt
<skaet> Thankyou, mlegris1, Laney, ogra_, jdstrand, ogasawara, cjwatson, Daviey, fabo, rsalveti,
<skaet> slangasek, pgraner, dbarth, ScottK,  charlie-tca,  gilir, stgraber
<slangasek> thanks, Kate!
<charlie-tca> skaet: You are welcome, and thank you for chairing.
<highvoltage> and thanks to stgraber for the update while I was at French class!
<jdstrand> thanks skaet!
#ubuntu-meeting 2011-09-18
<mc44> 4
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-09-10
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<jjohansen> \o
<micahg> hi
 * mdeslaur pokes at sbeattie with pointed stick
 * sbeattie waves
<mdeslaur> cool
<mdeslaur> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep 10 18:02:19 2012 UTC.  The chair is mdeslaur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<mdeslaur> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<mdeslaur> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Announcements
<mdeslaur> thanks to ScottK for his help on security updates for python-django last week. Your work is very much appreciated and will keep Ubuntu users secure. Great job! :)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<mdeslaur> I'll go first
<mdeslaur> I've just published gimp and python-django
<mdeslaur> and I've published a usn for the ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu package
<mdeslaur> I'll start work on an embargoed issue this week, and will try and get to some other CVEs in our list...we have quite a large list right now
<mdeslaur> oh, and I'm on community
<mdeslaur> that's it, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on triage this week
<sbeattie> I've got updates for mesa, horizon, and eglibc underway
<mdeslaur> \o/ eglibc
<sbeattie> I also need to get the apparmor-dbus ppa up and going.
<sbeattie> I'll try to pick up another update due to the large list
<sbeattie> that's it for me. micahg?
<micahg> I've got patch piloting, Firefox 15.0.1, Chromium for precise, webkit on oneiric
<micahg> oh, and Mozilla pretesting time permitting
<micahg> tyhicks: tag
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I got two xmlrpc-c patches upstreamed late last week and I'm in the process of publishing an update for xmlrpc-c as we speak
<tyhicks> After that, I need to take a closer look into an eCryptfs regression in precise - Bug 1047261
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1047261 in linux (Ubuntu) "ecryptfs_encrypt_page: Error attempting to write lower page (regression)" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1047261
<tyhicks> and then I'll be splitting time between coming up to speed on apparmor introspection interface patches and another update or two
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I have an update of yama stacking patches and a couple of link restriction qrt failures to look into
<jjohansen> Some testing of IMA so that we can turn its config on in quantal
<jjohansen> Some reported apparmor quantal regression failures to look into.
<jjohansen> Finish piecing back together apparmor dbus (a little bit of parser work and what ever surprises come up in testing), and work with sbeattie to get the ppa up
<jjohansen> There is a kernel workflow failure that I was pointed at last week that I need to finish looking into, where some CVEs aren't moving out of the pending state.
<jjohansen> Push out the latest apparmor lock, fs patches
<jjohansen> mdeslaur: back to you
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<mdeslaur> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mednafen.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/shibboleth-sp2.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/torcs.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/eclipse.html
<mdeslaur> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/znc.html
<mdeslaur> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<mdeslaur> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<mdeslaur> thanks everyone!
<mdeslaur> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep 10 18:19:13 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-10-18.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-10-18.02.html
<sbeattie> mdeslaur: thanks!
<micahg> mdeslaur: thanks
<jjohansen> thanks mdeslaur
<micahg> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, cody-somerville, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
<cody-somerville> Hi Folks
 * rsalveti waves
<tumbleweed> o/
 * infinity readies his pom-poms to cheer for rsalveti.
<cody-somerville> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep 10 19:02:34 2012 UTC.  The chair is cody-somerville. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:
<rsalveti> infinity: :-)
<cody-somerville> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Review of previous action items
<cody-somerville> #subtopic micahg to document the zentyal packageset
<micahg> impossible as the API doesn't allow it :)
 * micahg will file bug for that
<cody-somerville> micahg, Ack
<tumbleweed> and I may even fix it, I did a rocketfuel-setup, intending to have a look...
 * stgraber waves
<cody-somerville> #accepted Impossible as the API doesn't allow it - micahg will file bug. Tumbleweed may look to fix it.
<cody-somerville> #subtopic laney to delete network-manager packageset
<cody-somerville> I don't think Laney is making it today.
<cody-somerville> Carrying action item
<cody-somerville> #action laney to delete network-manager packageset
<meetingology> ACTION: laney to delete network-manager packageset
<cody-somerville> #subtopic laney to contact menesis about schooltool packageset
<tumbleweed> also can't be done without lp changes
<cody-somerville> #action laney to delete network-manager packageset (may require lp changes however)
<meetingology> ACTION: laney to delete network-manager packageset (may require lp changes however)
<stgraber> tumbleweed: removing package sets?
<cody-somerville> #subtopic laney to contact TB to see if netbook/unr/mobile packagesets are still needed
<cody-somerville> Action is reported as done in agenda
<cody-somerville> #accepted TB was contacted regarding continued need for netbook/unr/mobile packagesets
<cody-somerville> #subtopic stgraber to add ppu for lexical to fwts
<stgraber> I believe that was done, let me check
<stgraber> yep
<cody-somerville> #accepted Added PPU for lexical to fwts
<cody-somerville> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
<cody-somerville> #subtopic Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Ricardo Salveti
 * rsalveti o/
<cody-somerville> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RicardoSalveti/CoreDevApplication
<tumbleweed> stgraber: yes
<cody-somerville> rsalveti, Hello. Please introduce yourself and your application.
<rsalveti> sure
<rsalveti> my name is Ricardo Salveti, working and living in Brazil, mostly involved with ARM related activities over the past few years
<rsalveti> I'm a canonical employee, currently allocated at Linaro working as the team lead for the developer platform team, which is responsible of creating and maintaining the Ubuntu Linaro Evaluation Builds
<rsalveti> these Ubuntu LEBs are currently based on both the last stable release and the current one, which we use to integrate and deliver the linaro specific projects and developments
<rsalveti> so in the end we can provide an image that can be used in many different development boards, helping the development and validation before the code from the other working groups can be integrated at upstream
<rsalveti> or even at the ubuntu archive
<rsalveti> in the past I also worked at the old ubuntu arm team
<rsalveti> mostly during the maverick/natty cycles, helping improving the ARM support in general
<rsalveti> as a generalist, I'm usually involved on coding and bugfixes all across the os, from bootloader, kernel, init system and X11
<rsalveti> I also worked improving and enabling the OpenGL ES2.0 support at the archive, for arm, so we could have accelerated rendering with our supported boards
<rsalveti> such as Pandaboard
<rsalveti> also helping getting Unity 3d to properly work on ARM, by helping with coding/bugfixes and also package updates
<cody-somerville> rsalveti, Do you find the Ubuntu release and development processes provides downstream consumers such as Linaro with a reliable and stable foundation to build custom solutions and product on top of? What were some of the pain points in this regard and how would you go about fixing them?
<rsalveti> for Quantal I'm glad that we were finally able to get the PowerVR SGX driver in place, letting us releasing the desktop image for Panda during B1
<rsalveti> cody-somerville: usually, yes, but we had to deal with a few issues as well
<rsalveti> the first one happened when we decided to generate our own rootfs, based on ubuntu
<rsalveti> as live-build wasn't that supported at that time
<rsalveti> but lately that improved once the live-build support was improved at ubuntu (around oneiric?), and we were also able to cross-bootstrap it with qemu
<rsalveti> making it a lot easier for us to customize the image at the build time
<rsalveti> another issue we got was the lack of proper cross build support
<rsalveti> as specially for ARM, the engineers are quite used to just use cross-compilation for everything
<rsalveti> and as on ubuntu we officially just support native build, that was a bit of a pain for those developers
<rsalveti> luckily that was improved a lot with multi-arch support, but it's still not looking very nice
<rsalveti> http://people.linaro.org/~wookey/buildd/precise/sbuild-ma/status-bootstrap.html
<rsalveti> one example
<rsalveti> I think we also got one for quantal this week
<rsalveti> wookey is working on setting up a buildd to try to verify the cross-build support for our packages
<rsalveti> using multi-arch
<rsalveti> but currently I think perf is one of the main issues, as porting it to multi-arch and getting it able to be cross-buildable is a pain
<rsalveti> *perl
<cody-somerville> rsalveti, Is that work that you hope will make it into Ubuntu at some point?
<rsalveti> and the last one, which we got from ARM, is that once the release is done, the src packages from updates/security can be replaced with new package updates
<rsalveti> and that is an issue specially when they got an image which can't easily be updated, and they want/need the src/dbg packages from one specific version which is not available anymore
<rsalveti> cody-somerville: we're working to get this supported at ubuntu for a while already, hopefully this time it'll be enough to bootstrap the Aarch64 more easily
<cody-somerville> The last issue: Is that an issue with how you deliver your package updates to customers or an issue with Ubuntu's archives?
<rsalveti> our goal is to also work helping debian/ubuntu with the aarch64 port later this year, so at least for a minimum rootfs it's quite useful to be able to cross-build them
 * stgraber remembers getting quite a few patches from wookey to support cross-building of various bits of the archive
<rsalveti> cody-somerville: the problem happens once the vendor updates the image, but later wants to debug one specific package that was also updated at the updates/security pocket
<cody-somerville> rsalveti, Do you see a future where official packages in the Ubuntu archive could be generated via cross-building instead of needing to all be done on native hardware?
<rsalveti> then he's unable to find the older version by just using apt-get
<rsalveti> cody-somerville: I think so (we also discussed in the past the support for cross-build at launchpad), but the problem is the amount of time it takes to get that in place
<rsalveti> it might be the same time where we'll be getting huge armv8 servers around
<infinity> (There are reasons other than time why not to do it)
<rsalveti> then the cross build is not that relevant anymore
<rsalveti> infinity: sure, but even for development/experimental support
<rsalveti> so I believe it's good to be able to cross build packages, specially now that we have multi-arch support
<rsalveti> but I don't see it becoming an official/supported way by ubuntu
<cody-somerville> rsalveti, Do you have any major goals that you'd like to achieve in the next six months if you were to become a Ubuntu core developer?
<rsalveti> cody-somerville: keep improving the support for the current arm targets, but also helping the support for other devices, such as the A10 based tablets/servers/dongles etc
<rsalveti> I think those variants will become quite relevant in a few months, specially because they are incredibly cheap
<rsalveti> also, helping with the Aarch64 port as well
<rsalveti> (which is our current focus at linaro)
<rsalveti> and, there's still a lot of work to make the opengl related packages at the archive also compatible with OpenGL ES
<cody-somerville> rsalveti, Being a Ubuntu Core Developer isn't just about upload permissions, it also means being a leader. Can you describe a situation or an issue in the Ubuntu community where you've shown leadership?
<rsalveti> I think specially with the pandaboard/beagle users, where they are always pushing and requiring better support for their own use cases
<rsalveti> I always try to help at the #ubuntu-arm channel with any board specific issue, and also helping them becoming more interested at Ubuntu
<rsalveti> by providing an easy way to consume ubuntu, and also build whatever they like on top of it
<rsalveti> so that's why getting the opengles drivers integrated by default was a quite important step
<rsalveti> I think that ubuntu was the first arm distro that got the drivers integrated at the archive
<rsalveti> first for the omap3 boards, and later for omap4
<rsalveti> which helped people developing the opengles support at unity, but also for others that were consuming and developing applications on top of Qt
<rsalveti> using the opengles support for it
<cody-somerville> rsalveti, What motivated you to apply to become a Ubuntu Core Developer? Is there any reason you haven't applied previously for MOTU?
<rsalveti> cody-somerville: that's a funny fact, I thought about applying to motu first, and that's how I became an ubuntu universe contributor (at that time it wasn't clear what team/permission would be related with motu)
<rsalveti> I remember we had even wiki pages showing that ubuntu universe contributor would be just like a motu
<rsalveti> but I found later on that it wasn't that way still
<rsalveti> but then, as most of the packages I was changing at ubuntu was part of main, I just decided to apply to core-dev directly
<rsalveti> specially after working and contributing to ubuntu for almost 5 releases
<cody-somerville> Any other questions?
<stgraber> rsalveti: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<rsalveti> stgraber: yes
<rsalveti> hm, maybe not announce, let me check
 * rsalveti is subscribed to so many ubuntu related mls
<micahg> rsalveti: you mention that you don't like the kernel SRU process, this has actually been measurably improved in the past few years, did you have any specific ideas on how it can be even better?
<stgraber> rsalveti: ubuntu-devel-announce is where all the freezes are announced, so it's really a must read before uploading anything
<rsalveti> stgraber: oh, true, I usually prefer to follow the release meetings at every friday
<stgraber> that works too (same information)
<rsalveti> micahg: I think specially on the kernel side, the kernel stable updates are updated more frequently nowadays
<rsalveti> guess after the qa side of ubuntu got a bit of more focus, that also improved on that direction as well
<rsalveti> but it's common to find bugfixes waiting for more than one month
<micahg> they have a 3 week cadence, so if you miss the train, you get on the next one
<rsalveti> which I think can upset a few users, as it can take quite a while to get some minor but important fixes in place
<micahg> the problem is that you'll always have more fixes to get in, it should only be up to 3 weeks for a new kernel to hit proposed where people can grab it if they need it sooner
<rsalveti> I believe for an lts 3 weeks might make sense, not so sure for the other releases
<micahg> rsalveti: the problem is the time to verify all the fixes across the board
<micahg> they just barely make it in 3 weeks now AIUI
<rsalveti> yup :-( I know the pain
<rsalveti> it's also common for the reporter to disappear
<stgraber> rsalveti: another question for you :)
<stgraber> rsalveti: Let's say you're a core dev, we are on the 21st of September 2012 and you have two packages that you want to upload, not containing any new feature. vlc and python-gevent. Should you upload these to the archive? If not, why?
<rsalveti> after the <snapshot>-freeze, like beta-2, I'd first make sure I have the bugs opened and with proper explanation about why they need to be fixed
<rsalveti> and then go to #ubuntu-release to request more info if I should update those packages or not, and then push to the archive
<rsalveti> if they are not critical enough, otherwise going to -proposed might be the way to go
<rsalveti> at times near release I don't want to push anything that's not well communicated at #ubuntu-release
<stgraber> well, you should really only be poking #ubuntu-release for things that are seeded
<stgraber> which of these two packages (if any) are part of these packages that are frozen for the milestone?
<micahg> s/seeded/on images/ before final freeze
<cody-somerville> We'll now move to the vote.
<cody-somerville> #vote Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Ricardo Salveti
<meetingology> Please vote on: Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Ricardo Salveti
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<rsalveti> python-gevent is part of main
<rsalveti> but I think we have a freeze for universe as well at some point, right?
<rsalveti> quite near the final freeze
<rsalveti> stgraber: but I would only push a package at this point if it can be useful for the image, otherwise it might be good to wait for the release
<rsalveti> not necessarily for universe packages, sure
<cody-somerville> +1 based on interview, contributions, and endorsements.
<meetingology> +1 based on interview, contributions, and endorsements. received from cody-somerville
<stgraber> well, apparently cody-somerville started the vote already, so I'll just quickly explain why I chose these two packages
<stgraber> vlc is part of mythbuntu so is covered by the milestone freeze but ONLY for LTS releases, so not for 12.10 where it can be freely uploaded until final freeze
<micahg> rsalveti: main/universe is much less important than affects an image/doesn't affect an image
<stgraber> (universe final freeze)
<rsalveti> yup, true
<stgraber> python-gevent is only on the Edubuntu media AFAIK as a dependency of python-x2go (universe) but that means it's part of the milestone freeze and shouldn't be uploaded without explicit approval of the release team
<rsalveti> that's why I'd first go to #ubuntu-release, I know we have many variants around
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<stgraber> rsalveti: do you know what tool to use whether a package is seeded and what media it might affect?
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<rsalveti> stgraber: seeded-in-ubuntu, but also look at the seeds file
<cody-somerville> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Ubuntu Core Developer Application: Ricardo Salveti
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<stgraber> rsalveti: yep, seeded-in-ubuntu is good for that. Grepping through the seeds works too but I prefer to let germinate do the calculation :)
<cody-somerville> rsalveti, Congratulations and welcome to the Ubuntu Core Developer team.
<rsalveti> stgraber: yeah :-)
<infinity> \o/
<rsalveti> \o/
<rsalveti> thanks all folks
<rsalveti> glad to be part of the team
<stgraber> rsalveti: congrats
<cody-somerville> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting Meeting | Current topic:  AOB
<rsalveti> and proud as well
<cody-somerville> Is there any other business for the board?
<cody-somerville> If not, the next chair will be tumbleweed.
<cody-somerville> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep 10 20:04:45 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-10-19.02.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-10-19.02.html
<cody-somerville> Thank you everyone.
<barry> thanks cody-somerville
<skaet_> congratulations rsalveti :)
<rsalveti> skaet_: thanks! :-)
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-09-11
<jamespage> o/
<smoser> o./
<Daviey> o/
<arosales> o/
<arosales> Daviey:  are you chairing todays meeting?
<Daviey> err, am i on point?
<Daviey> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep 11 16:03:40 2012 UTC.  The chair is Daviey. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
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<Daviey> #TOPIC Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<Daviey> smoser follow up on bug 1028453
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1028453 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "Quantal Ubuntu Server minimal install oversized" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1028453
<jamespage> fixed
<Daviey> super
<jamespage> \o/
<Daviey> jamespage to look into aligning release team and server team trackign reports
<smoser> woot
<skaet> :)
<Daviey> Mr Page?
<jamespage> still thinking about that one - I think we should probably just use the release team report - but it lacks MIR and other team tracking
<jamespage> c/f
<Daviey> jamespage: OK, i missed this action.  Can we organise an audio chat with interetsed people to gauge outcomes?
<jamespage> sure
<Daviey> #TOPIC Quantal Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Quantal Development
<Daviey> jamespage or smoser, want to take release-bugs.html?
<jamespage> o.
<jamespage> ill do it
<jamespage> http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/ubuntu-server/release-bugs.html
<jamespage> only a few things on this report now.
<jamespage> bug 1024326
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1024326 in horizon (Ubuntu) "node.js is required for access to the dashboard" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1024326
<adam_g> i committed a new fix for that last night. much simpler and cleaner
<adam_g> so, with the next upload it should be fixed. i'd like to find a way to integrate the build steps into package build, tho
<smoser> adam_g, link?
<smoser> ah. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~openstack-ubuntu-testing/horizon/precise-folsom-proposed/revision/103
<zul> hi ho
<Daviey> jamespage: is the breadth of the report accurate, i haven't added anything myself for ages
<jamespage> see action above about release tracking bugs
<jamespage> hallyn: bug 1040033
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1040033 in qemu-kvm (Ubuntu Quantal) "Fresh VM installs via preseeded oneiric isos sometimes fail with filesystem issues" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1040033
<jamespage> ah - I see last comment says HEAD fixes stuff - guess you just need to narrow things down
<jamespage> and from http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<jamespage> ivoks has a really old bug assigned - bug 671065
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 671065 in dovecot (Ubuntu Quantal) "deliver broken because dovecot.conf uses !include_try" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/671065
<jamespage> hmm - not in channel - I'll followup - need to pester him for test cases anyway
<jamespage> we have a load of undecided bugs for maas and juju  - which at least need a priority setting.
<jamespage> my recommendation would be to drop the quantal tasks for the time being; that way the bug stays around - but we are not commiting to fix it for quantal unless we raise the tasks....
<jamespage> smoser, can you and roaksoax review the maas ones - I'll pickup the juju ones with SpamapS
<jamespage> ...
<jamespage> thats be done on release bugs....
<jamespage> of note anyway :-)
<Daviey> super
<Daviey> any extra ones that should be added?
<smoser> jamespage, will do.
<Daviey> ok
<Daviey> smoser: do you want to go through http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/group/topic-quantal-servercloud-overview.html ?
<jimbaker> fwiw, i think we have been doing a good effort on closing out the juju bugs, led by SpamapS
<jamespage> jimbaker, +1 to that - there are just alot hanging around from last cycles MIR review
<smoser> sure. i'll go through.
<smoser> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-openstack-qa
<smoser> i'll just hit red ones.
<smoser> jamespage, ?
<jamespage> ?
<smoser> any comment on servercloud-q-opensetack-qa
<arosales> is zul on point for servercloud-q-openstack-qa
<smoser> ah. sorry. zul
<jamespage> yep
<jamespage> :-)
<zul> dah
<smoser> yes. i see that. thakn you arosales
<Daviey> zul is acridness to the WI, but in reality jamespage and adam_g have had a significant influence
<Daviey> err, "according to"*  .. damn dictionary
<zul> i had to look up that word
<smoser> fun... well anyone want to talk to that ?
<smoser> its behind.
<Daviey> primarily, reporting on upsteam gerrit.. pre-merge.. adam_g / jamespage ?
<jamespage> I'll have to defer to adam_g - my involvement this cycle has been mainly doing password resets for zul
<smoser> ok.
<smoser> lets move on.
<smoser> adam_g, zul, please take al ook at that today.
<adam_g> Daviey: i have the majority of htat that work done
<smoser> talk amoungst yourselves.
<adam_g> just need to implement it live on the cluster. was preparing to do that a few weeks ago when i was hijacked with other things
<smoser> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-juju-charm-best-practices
<smoser> that seems more SpamapS per this group
<smoser> i belive there is more progress there than shown
<smoser> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-arm-deployment
<smoser> i'll speak for rbasak on that. he has made considerable progress on it.
<smoser> and the work remaining seems to be known
<SpamapS> smoser: I'd have to poll everybody listed there. but in general that effort has been going slower than expected
<smoser> SpamapS, thank you
<smoser> please do try to get it into some sort of more current state (if that includes POSTPONE)
<smoser> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-openstack-folsom
<SpamapS> I'll poke a few of them though, I see a coupel WI's that have been half-done for a while
<smoser> zul, you're most of those. ddoes that look reasonable?
 * smoser will get my 2 updated on that.
<zul> yeah more of it will be "DONE" as we get cloesr to release
<smoser> i'll poke around, but my feeling is public glance is POSTPONED
<Daviey> zul: when will nova for folsom for example, be marked DONE?
<Daviey> smoser: lets discuss that after
<smoser> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-openstack-stable
<smoser> zul?
<zul> ill update the spec
<smoser> gracias
<smoser> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-server-iso-tests-review
<smoser> there are  a bunch of people listed on tasks there, but jamespage name on the item.
<jamespage> smoser, that should catchup this week
<jamespage> I'm gonna pester jibel about upgrade testing.... and ivoks for mail stuff
<smoser> roaksoax, i'm assuming that powernap needs to go to POSTPONED
<smoser> i'll follow up with roaksoax
<smoser> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-bug-triage-review
<Daviey> Ursinha: ^ ?
<smoser> jamespage, ^ you again
<smoser> or Ursinha
<Daviey> James page is all done on that blueprint.
<jamespage> yeah - again I'll followup with Ursinha (I keep forgetting and its my blueprint)
<smoser> k. moving on.
<smoser> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-maas-next-steps
<smoser> roaksoax, ^ ?
<smoser> there is a bunch of work to do there.
<smoser> i'll speak to it.
<smoser> that is "Essential" and will be accomplished to a satisfactory end.
<Daviey> nothing like a satisfactory ending
<smoser> servercloud-q-juju-charms-release-policy https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-juju-charms-release-policy
<roaksoax> smoser: there are a couple bugs need to be addressed and other but currently blocked too due to
<roaksoax> not having quantal support
<smoser> SpamapS, that looks like yours. is there updates there?
<smoser> servercloud-q-openstack-ha https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-openstack-ha
<SpamapS> smoser: the two TODO's are still valid, and have to be completed this cycle.
<smoser> SpamapS, thank you.
<smoser> roaksoax, you're next there. ... i'm uguessing that one can stand some updates.
<smoser> servercloud-q-juju-charm-unit-tests https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/servercloud-q-juju-charm-unit-tests
<Daviey> was,
<Daviey> "juju charms for DRBD (adam_g says it is impossible, SpampS seems it is possible): TODO" resolved?
<zul> i think we need a steel cage for that one
<SpamapS> we never have worked on it
<SpamapS> but yeah I still believe its possible :)
<adam_g> hehe
<adam_g> SpamapS: go for it!
<roaksoax> smoser: since I have been concentrated on maas the last two weeks I couldn't really advance any work on the HA stuff. But there are updates that need to be considered and will catch up with zul /adam_g as it relates to ha specific stuff for openstack
<Daviey> smoser: do you have capacity to prove us all wrong?
<smoser> roaksoax, gracias.
<smoser> i want no part of the SpamapS adam_g steel cage
<SpamapS> drbd seems so old fashioned.. don't people just do RAID1 across volumes these days?
<smoser> alright. i think that is enough there.
<adam_g>  drbd is basically distributed raid1
 * SpamapS would promise not to use his roundhouse
<smoser> please do take a bit of time today and make sure your blueprints represent their actual state.
<smoser> and remember that we're past beta1, and there is not much time remaining.
<smoser> and miles to go before i sleep.
<smoser> lets move on.
<Daviey> thank you Mr Moser.
<Daviey> #TOPIC Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> you are most welcome.
<Daviey> CFP Submissions: SoCal Linux Expo (Deadline: Dec. 10) http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/cfp
<Daviey> Anyone else travelling soon?
<Daviey> OpenStack Conference, San Diego, Oct 15-18, 2012 .. number of us going.
<Daviey> UDS, Copenhagen, Denmark , 29th Oct â 1st Nov 2012
<Daviey> Anything else?
<Daviey> #TOPIC Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (hggdh)
<Daviey> Great to see we got Beta-1 out in reasonable shape, what is the plans between now and the next milestone for enrichment in testing?
<Daviey> Nobody from QA here?
<arosales> btw, for events Surge is also coming up on Sept 27, and jimbaker is giving  a Big Data meetup preso on Sept 19.
<Daviey> *sigh*
<Daviey> Okay, lets move frustratedly on.
<Daviey> [TOPIC] Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<Daviey> and no smb.
<Daviey> ogasawara: anyone from kernel here?
<Daviey> marvellous
<Daviey> [TOPiC] Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<arosales> rbask is on holiday
<jamespage> rbasak on holiday
<Daviey> Please, can someone cover this, before i shoot myself?
<arosales> I think he synced up with smoser though
<Daviey> smoser: ^?
<arosales> we are working on adding in ARM support int MAAS
<arosales> that is the main effort
<smoser> sure...
<Daviey> anything else of note
<Daviey> ?
<smoser> rbasak has made considerable and impressive progresses on maas and arm.
<Daviey> \o/
<smoser> the ephemeral images were giving him pai, but he has hacked his way around that, and my reproduction of that has lead me to chasing some other issues in those images.
<Daviey> smoser: does it work with panda?
<smoser> bug 1031065
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1031065 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "cloud-init-nonet runs 'start networking' explicitly" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1031065
<smoser> i do not believe it works with panda
<Daviey> what about qemu-system-arm-highbank ?
<smoser> also, of interesting work there, dannf reportably can make things work with qemu-system-arm
<Daviey> qemu-system-arm -M highbank*
<smoser> https://launchpad.net/~dannf/+archive/qemu-highbank/+packages
<smoser> ping him for more info there.
<Daviey> that should be good in the archive now
<Daviey> The blocker for me, was a devicetree which is now fixed
<smoser> last i spoke to him on it, he had a kernel that would boot, but the latest highbank kernel for precise would not.
<Daviey> okay, thanks smoser
<smoser> but yeah, haivng some sort of qemu functional would be huge.
<Daviey> moving on?
<Daviey> #TOPIC Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion
<smoser> and ideally that can be booted with cloud images and cloud-localds
<ogra_> omap works pretty well
<ogra_> (but limited to 512M indeed)
<Daviey> ogra_: might want to grab you to help polish this stuff :)
<ogra_> feel free
<Daviey> ogra_: Would like to do a PXE boot via system-arm.. which might be interesting
<SpamapS> Dunno if this was brought up in the bugs discussion, but Juju is a bit broken in quantal right now
<Daviey> SpamapS: oh?
<SpamapS> There's a regression in python that hit yesterday, bug 1048710
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1048710 in python3.2 (Ubuntu) "Regression in argparse for Python 2.7, 3.2 and 3.3" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1048710
<SpamapS> Barry Warsaw is on it
<ogra_> Daviey, qemu can boot our images out of the box (including the whole bootloader bits) so that shouldnt be any prob
<SpamapS> Its pretty serious as it breaks the argparsing for all of juju's cli utilities
<Daviey> Joy
 * Daviey ads it to tracking
<SpamapS> anyway, I'm sure it will be resolved soon, but just a heads up that you may need to downgrade python2.7 if you want to have a working juju on quantal
<SpamapS> Daviey: in case that bug does not fix it, there's also a juju bug, bug #1048864 , that is worth tracking
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1048864 in juju (Ubuntu Quantal) "Latest python in quantal breaks juju test suite" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1048864
<Daviey> SpamapS: juju/precise archive + jitsu... Is it possible?
<SpamapS> Daviey: it may end up being duped to 1048710 .. we'll see
<jamespage> SpamapS, thats on the release bugs list (both of them)
<SpamapS> Daviey: we can put juju-jitsu in backports
<SpamapS> jamespage: right, because I targetted at quantal
<Daviey> SpamapS: but does it work?
<SpamapS> Daviey: It should. popey was looking at it.
<Daviey> SpamapS: he pinged me otherwise this morning :(
<SpamapS> Daviey: bummer. Ok, we'll have to dive into that
<Daviey> thanks
<Daviey> Anything else?
<SpamapS> Daviey: wild thing, I think you move me.
<Daviey> #TOPIC Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announce next meeting date and time
<Daviey> 18th, same time, same place
<Daviey> #ENDMEETING
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep 11 16:51:41 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-11-16.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-11-16.03.html
<Daviey> Thanks all!
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep 11 17:00:32 2012 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Quantal
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<cking> o/
<henrix> o/
<sforshee> o/
<kamal> o/
<sconklin> o/
<herton> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<jsalisbury> No update this week.
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> [LINK]
<jsalisbury> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-quantal/canonical-kernel-distro-team-ubuntu-12.10-beta-2.html
<jsalisbury> || apw       || hardware-q-kernel-config-review || 3 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> ||           || hardware-q-kernel-delta-review  || 3 work items ||
<jsalisbury> ||           || hardware-q-kernel-misc          || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> ||           || desktop-q-clean-old-kernels     || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> || ogasawara || hardware-q-kernel-misc          || 4 work items ||
<jsalisbury> || tgardner  || hardware-q-kernel-misc          || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> If your name is in the above table, please review your Beta-2 work items.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Quantal Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Quantal Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> We have uploaded the 3.5.0-14.16 Quantal kernel.  This upload contains
<jsalisbury> updates for the mei driver, resolves misc touchpad regressions, and
<jsalisbury> includes misc bug fixes for the apple-gmux driver.  This will also be
<jsalisbury> uploaded to the q-lts-backport [1] PPA to help facilitate testing of the
<jsalisbury> 12.10 kernel in 12.04.  We welcome anyone to please install, test, and
<jsalisbury> let us know your feedback.
<jsalisbury> [1] https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+archive/q-lts-backport
<jsalisbury> Important upcoming dates:
<jsalisbury>  * Thurs Sept 20 - Beta 2 Freeze (~1 week)
<jsalisbury>  * Thurs Sept 27 - Beta 2 (~2 weeks)
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's (sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's (sconklin)
<sconklin> == 2012-09-11 (weekly) ==
<sconklin> Currently we have 75 CVEs on our radar, with two CVEs added and two CVEs retired this week.
<sconklin> See the CVE matrix for the current list:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<sconklin> Overall the backlog has decreased slightly this week:
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/status/cve-metrics.txt
<sconklin> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/CVE-linux.txt
<sconklin> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Oneiric/Natty/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Oneiric/Natty/Lucid/Hardy (bjf/herton/henrix)
<henrix> Here is the status for the main kernels, until today (September 11):
<henrix>  * Hardy - Nothing in this cycle
<henrix>  * Lucid - In Testing; 3 CVEs; (9 commits)
<henrix>  * Natty - In Testing; 4 CVEs; (9 commits)
<henrix>  * Oneiric - In Testing; 2 CVEs; 2 upstream stable release(s); (67 commits)
<henrix>  * Precise - In Verification; 2 CVEs; 1 upstream stable release(s); (66 commits)
<henrix> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<henrix> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<henrix>  * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<henrix> Future stable cadence cycles:
<henrix>  * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuantalQuetzal/ReleaseInterlock
<henrix> NOTE: this is the *last* Natty kernel being built.
<henrix> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep 11 17:05:02 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-11-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-11-17.00.html
<cking> thanks jsalisbury
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<sconklin> thanks jsalisbury
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-09-12
<cyphermox> #startmeeting 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 12 12:03:18 2012 UTC.  The chair is cyphermox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | 1200 UTC Ubuntu Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<cyphermox> Hello and welcome to the Ubuntu Membership Review Board for the 1200 UTC meeting for September 12, 2012.
<cyphermox> The wiki page for the Review Board is available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/Boards
<cyphermox> We will attempt to get through all of the applicants that have added themselves to that list before today's meeting. If we are unable to make it through the entire list due to time constraints, then at the next meeting we will pick up where we left off.
<cyphermox> The format for the meeting is as follows: We will go through the list of applicants one by one, by date of application (FIFO).
<cyphermox> Each applicant should introduce themselves (1-5 sentences) and provide links to their Ubuntu Wiki page. After the introduction the members of the Membership Review Board will review the pages and, if needed, ask the applicant further questions.
<cyphermox> During this time it is encouraged for other members of the community to show their support for the applicant. Do not be alarmed if the members of the Membership Review Board are quiet during this time; they are most likely reading wiki/launchpad/forum/other pages and deciding how they are going to vote.
<cyphermox> When the board is ready to vote, they will publicly vote in the channel with either +1, 0, or -1 (for membership, abstain, and against membership, respectively). If the sum of those numbers is positive, then the applicant is now an official Ubuntu member! (feel free congratulate them!)
<cyphermox> #voters cyphermox Pendulum head_victim hggdh
<meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum cyphermox head_victim hggdh
<head_victim> Let's hope we can get through the long list of applicants tonight ;)
<cyphermox> omg!
<untaintableangel> lol
<cyphermox> Now, with any further ado, lets get started with the first applicant...
<cyphermox> #subtopic Anthony Harrington
<untaintableangel> Hello, everyone! My Name's Anthony and here's a link to my launchpad page: https://launchpad.net/~untaintableangel
<untaintableangel> also to my wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AnthonyHarrington
<cyphermox> #link https://launchpad.net/~untaintableangel
<cyphermox> #link http://wiki.ubuntu.com/AnthonyHarrington
<cyphermox> (belt and suspenders, just making sure it's there in the meeting report thingy)
<untaintableangel> I'm 22, i study chemistry at university and i'm from the northeast of england. I'd like to become an official ubuntu member :D
<cyphermox> #voters cyphermox Pendulum head_victim hggdh micahg
<meetingology> Current voters: Pendulum cyphermox head_victim hggdh micahg
<head_victim> untaintableangel: after reading your application and looking over the links, I'm curious about something. Not to belittle your translation efforts (nice karma for that!) are you involved in any other aspects of the community?
<untaintableangel> Not currently, but in time i hope to provide coding related contributions and helping users answer questions in the ubuntuforums
<Pendulum> untaintableangel: Have you had any involvement with the UK LoCo as far as events or interacting with members online other than translations?
<untaintableangel> Again, not currently, emails sent between me and other launchpad members are predominantly concerning translations
<cyphermox> untaintableangel: have you had contact with other Ubuntu members in your translation work?
<cyphermox> Why would you like to be a Ubuntu member?
<cyphermox> untaintableangel: still around?
<ant__> oh dear, i think my last message didn't go through, i'll type it again
<cyphermox> last I saw was "<untaintableangel> Again, not currently, emails sent between me and other launchpad members are predominantly concerning translations"
<hggdh> let's give him a chance of either (1) finishing his typing, or (2) reconnecting
<ant__> I was saying, time does become very scarce during university term time and especially around exams so i do unfortunately miss out on events, and i have to contribute where at all possible time-wise.
<ant__> <untaintableangel> Yes, i get quite a few emails from users seeking advice or requesting assistance to complete a set. Every now and then i make sure to circulate several messages of encouragement to the team/users to spur them on in their efforts :)
<head_victim> ant__: is that on mailing lists of offlist?
<hggdh> oh, anr__ == untaintableangle
<ant__> both
<hggdh> s/anr__/ant__
<head_victim> I just hadn't seen much on the engb list in a long time (I'm a subscriber, I translate enAU)
<ant__> yes, sorry lol i don't know why my idendity changed and i don't know how to change it back XD
<untaintableangel> there we go, that's better lol
<untaintableangel> ahhh, hi there
<head_victim> :)
<cyphermox> ah, I looked at the engb list too, but just the last few months
<cyphermox> untaintableangel:  Why would you like to be a Ubuntu member?
<untaintableangel> I'd love to become an official ubuntu member because i've dedicated many years towards its translations and it has become such a great part of my life that i'd like to 'officially' be 'more intertwined' with it, if you will. lol
<untaintableangel> What i'm saying is: ubuntu is something to be proud of and i'd like to be officially associated with it
<hggdh> untaintableangel: what we are trying to ascertain is how involved with the community-at-large you are
<hggdh> so please give us data on that
<untaintableangel> i see, well i'm known to other english translators, certainly, and well known to specific teams like emesene
<untaintableangel> but really, not much outside of launchpad
<untaintableangel> 'at the moment' being the key point though. I would certainly be more involved at-large if i could contribute coding related things but i don't have the expertise just yet, i'm afraid :(
<cyphermox> it doesn't have to be coding
<Pendulum> untaintableangel: there is more "community at large" than just coding (I've never done any translations and I'd been a member for over a year before I did any code)
<cyphermox> Let's get to the voting part
<cyphermox> #vote Anthony Harrington to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Please vote on: Anthony Harrington to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<hggdh> +1 I would really like to see more community-at-large involvement, but the translation work justifies it (albeit minimally)
<meetingology> +1 I would really like to see more community-at-large involvement, but the translation work justifies it (albeit minimally) received from hggdh
<cyphermox> +1 , please get more involved with other parts of the community where possible (like your LoCo team); you could be a great motivator for others to do translation work
<meetingology> +1 , please get more involved with other parts of the community where possible (like your LoCo team); you could be a great motivator for others to do translation work received from cyphermox
<head_victim> +1 A suggestion I have moving forward would be to try to interact more with the community in whatever area you like but your efforts to date warrant membership as is
<meetingology> +1 A suggestion I have moving forward would be to try to interact more with the community in whatever area you like but your efforts to date warrant membership as is received from head_victim
<Pendulum> +1 good work with translations, but I'd love to see more community interaction (LoCo, maybe translations jams, etc.)
<meetingology> +1 good work with translations, but I'd love to see more community interaction (LoCo, maybe translations jams, etc.) received from Pendulum
<untaintableangel> I promise, i won't let you down :)
<head_victim> untaintableangel: an example of how to get involved without having to code would be to run a translation jam with your loco or something similar :)
<cyphermox> yeah! that's a great idea
<untaintableangel> a translation jam?
<micahg> +0 excellent translations work, but would have liked to see more integration with existing members
<meetingology> +0 excellent translations work, but would have liked to see more integration with existing members received from micahg
<cyphermox> especially explaining at least the use and context in translating to en_GB
<head_victim> untaintableangel: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam
<Pendulum> untaintableangel: also, if you use IRC at all, hang out in the #ubuntu-uk IRC channel and that may give you some ideas on what's going on that you could do without too much more time on your part
<cyphermox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Anthony Harrington to obtain Ubuntu Membership
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<head_victim> I'm sure the lovely folk in #ubuntu-uk would be a good place to start :)
<cyphermox> Congratulations untaintableangel
<untaintableangel> :D Thank you!!!
<head_victim> Congratulations untaintableangel, keep up the good work :)
<untaintableangel> wooooooo
<hggdh> untaintableangel: welcome. Please do get around to know your community ;-)
<cyphermox> If you have a blog, don't forget you should be able to add it to planet.ubuntu.com shortly :)
<untaintableangel> Thank you so much everyone :) I will become more involved
<cyphermox> (pending I do the necessary magic)
<hggdh> blogging, yes, good point
<hggdh> bah, cyphermox IS a magic
<cyphermox> pff
<untaintableangel> lol
<cyphermox> Any other business?
<Pendulum> untaintableangel: congrats!
<hggdh> no, I think we are done, cyphermox
<cyphermox> good good
<cyphermox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 12 12:38:25 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-12.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-12.03.html
<untaintableangel> :)
<cyphermox> yay, the "#link" were useful. I knew it!
<hggdh> untaintableangel: the whole point is that a community is made by the people you directly interact with, the ones that depend on  your work, and the "others". Getting to know as many as you can outside your expertise area glues much better the community
<untaintableangel> Thank you for your time and words of wisdom, everyone. Have a good day! :)
<hggdh> untaintableangel: a good night for you, sir
<balloons> good morning/evening
<smartboyhw> Good evening here
<smartboyhw> phillw: Say good morning/
<balloons> #startmeeting Ubuntu QA Community
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 12 14:01:22 2012 UTC.  The chair is balloons. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Community Meeting | Current topic:
<phillw> good afternoon from UK
<balloons> who all is here?
<kanliot> o/
<smartboyhw> \o
<phillw> o/
<balloons> :-) so quick nice
<balloons> let's dive in shall we.
<smartboyhw> ;-)
<balloons> [TOPIC] Previous Actions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Community Meeting | Current topic:  Previous Actions
<balloons> I believe the only outstanding item is me to get the https://qa.ubuntu.com/ site fixed
<smartboyhw> lol 3 weeks issue now:)
<balloons> the ticket is still outstanding.. I'm still waiting :-(
<balloons> it's going to take time
<phillw> just have to keep reminding them :)
<balloons> yep
<smartboyhw> :)
<balloons> ok, so moving along then
<balloons> [ACTION] balloons to follow-up with ubuntu-qa website changes
<meetingology> ACTION: balloons to follow-up with ubuntu-qa website changes
<balloons> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Updates
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Community Meeting | Current topic:  Ubuntu Updates
<balloons> So updates for ubuntu :-) Well knome has been working on visually enhancing our testcases
<balloons> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-qa-website/+bug/1039158
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1039158 in Ubuntu QA Website "Add css to have dl/dt/dd show as numbered list for testcases" [Wishlist,Fix committed]
<smartboyhw> Yes and I destroyed it:)(
<smartboyhw> By not knowing it:(
<smartboyhw> Sorry everybody:)
<balloons> And I've been working on writing the new testcases for ubiquity and migrating the alt cases over as needed
 * smartboyhw goes and looks at the sandbox
<balloons> In addition, focus is being given now to getting the flavors on board with re-using the ubuntu testcases and adding flavor specifics in there own testcases
<kanliot> i sent phillw some testcases, i wonder if he saw em.  They were from the fedora team
<phillw> kanliot: yes, I have them & the ideas from Julien to look throughj.
<balloons> So, in addition, beta is behind us, ff is behind us.. things are starting to stabilize a bit
<smartboyhw> Yay!
 * balloons checking schedule
<balloons> Sept 27th is beta2
<phillw> indeed, 2 weeks.
<balloons> once that hits it will be quite an october full of testing
<balloons> :-)
<smartboyhw> ;0
<balloons> I think that's it for updates themselves.. any questions before we move on?
<smartboyhw> No.:)
<balloons> [TOPIC] Other topics
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu QA Community Meeting | Current topic:  Other topics
<balloons> that means the floor is open
<phillw> o/
<kanliot> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1046563
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1046563 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "update-manager never appears on lubuntu precise" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<kanliot> could use some help communicating with the maintainer
<smartboyhw> kanliot: Please \o
<smartboyhw> and wait for the chair (balloons' approval) before you speak:)
<balloons> go ahead phillw
<kanliot> am i outta order?
<smartboyhw> kanliot: You are:)
<balloons> kanliot, yes, but no worries
<phillw> the x-bug affecting ppc appears to have been a red herring as that fix was for graphic chips that ppc computers do not have.
<phillw> work is ongoing to add a command similar to the nomdeset command.
<phillw> it does not seem, at this time, that the bug is reproducable in a Virtual Machine, so it is heavily reliant on the L-QA guys who have the hardware.
<phillw> ..
<smartboyhw> \o
<balloons> thanks phillw .. that's good news
<balloons> kanliot, go ahead
<kanliot> ok bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1046563
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1046563 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "update-manager never appears on lubuntu precise" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<kanliot> need help communicating with the maintainer
<kanliot> to help suggest solutions
<smartboyhw> That's awkward weird
<kanliot> pretty much update manager turned it'self off on lubuntu last month\
<balloons> kanliot, really? phillw hear of others having the same issue?
<balloons> that's really bizarre
<kanliot> yeah i'm surprised that more people arent upset
<balloons> basically, there's updates, but you'll never be prompted
<kanliot> but i get upset about everything, so it's normal for me
<balloons> did you check and make sure the settings to prompt are correct?
<phillw> balloons: I'd have to fire up a VM, but it is confirmed by another tester
<balloons> perhaps reset them?
<balloons> phillw, ahh.. yes, we're all in quantal mode
<smartboyhw> Me too I'm in quantal mode (and no Lubuntu ONLY)
<phillw> balloons: I'll dig out from my other drive an 12.04 lubuntu and run the upgrades through it on a VM - but my internet speed is slow, so it will take quite a few hours :(
<smartboyhw> Don't worry we do have time:)
<balloons> phillw, no no.. I can confirm it much quicker than that
<kanliot> it's pretty clearly broken
<smartboyhw> balloons: :)
<balloons> but the point is it's been confirmed
<kanliot> you can run the update manager through the cron script when it's working
<balloons> so I'm not worried about that.. just wanted to see how much debugging has been done
<kanliot> and when it's broken, the cron script doesn nothing
<kanliot> so reproducing isn't the problem
<balloons> ok kanliot i'll bring this up and see if we can get someone to give feedback on it
<balloons> thanks
<kanliot> the problem is that all lubuntu people wont get updates if they upgrade to 12.04
<kanliot> ty balloons
<balloons> yw
<smartboyhw> \o
<balloons> smartboyhw, go ahead
<smartboyhw> balloons: Just a small one
<balloons> sure
<smartboyhw> and a reminder only:)
<smartboyhw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings/QA/20120905
<smartboyhw> you forgotten to add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<smartboyhw> :)
<smartboyhw> ..
<phillw> smartboyhw: it is there, just waiting on balloons to fix the regex :P
 * balloons is booting lubuntu 12.04 to see what happens
<smartboyhw> ;P
<balloons> phillw, ohh right.. that regex.. my changes must not have saved
<balloons> perhaps I never saved it
<balloons> lol
<phillw> he he.
<balloons> [ACTION] balloons to fix regex on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<meetingology> ACTION: balloons to fix regex on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
<smartboyhw> lol
<smartboyhw> ..
<balloons> ok, any other questions?
<smartboyhw> No. End the meeting:)
<balloons> phillw, kanliot testing the update-manager bug right now
<balloons> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 12 14:33:05 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-14.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-14.01.html
<smartboyhw> THanks balloons
<balloons> let's chat in #ubuntu-testing
<smartboyhw> And phillw and kanliot
<phillw> thanks for chairing balloons
 * smartboyhw runs to #ubuntu-testing
<cjwatson> Hi folks
<stokachu> o/
<infinity> o/
<stokachu> \o
<jodh> \o/
 * xnox \0/
<stokachu> /o/
<ogra_> *plop*
<jodh> we need to practise the YMCA y'all.
<stokachu> lol
<cjwatson> Steve is in a hot tub drinking champagne^W^W^W^W^W^Wat a managers' sprint, so asked me to run the meeting
<cjwatson> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 12 15:01:18 2012 UTC.  The chair is cjwatson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<cjwatson> #topic lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<cjwatson> $ echo $(shuf -e barry bdmurray cjwatson ev doko ogra jodh stgraber infinity xnox stokachu)
<cjwatson> stokachu jodh xnox barry cjwatson ogra stgraber doko ev infinity bdmurray
 * infinity naps.
<stokachu> - working on bug regression for libgcrypt, swamped in customer issues, backporting multi-arch into precise for the ones that have been approved, testing/verifying approved multiarch srus
<stokachu> done
<ev> oh yes, team meeting
 * ev scrambles
<jodh> * blueprints
<jodh>   - foundations-q-session-management:
<jodh>     - no progress.
<jodh>   - desktop-q-upstart-session-requirements
<jodh>     - not started.
<jodh>   - foundations-q-upstart-service-readiness
<jodh>     - no progress.
<jodh>   - foundations-q-upstart-roadmap
<jodh>     - no progress.
<jodh>   - foundations-q-event-based-initramfs:
<jodh>     - reviewing slangaseks changes.
<jodh>     - collaboration with cjwaton on ptrace parent semantics:
<jodh>       - wading through kernel code and writing tests both confirm that
<jodh>         if a "debugger" re-execs, it retains its debugger status over
<jodh>         ptraced children. This behaviour appears not to be documented.
<jodh>     - allow unflushed log data to include null bytes in serialised data.
<jodh>     - fixed issue where 2nd and subsequent re-exec stopped log data serialisation.
<jodh>     - reviewed and merged lp:~jconti/upstart/fix_empty_chroot.
<jodh>     - reviewed lp:~cjwatson/upstart/stateful-reexec-ptrace.
<jodh>     - started writing tests (for sessions). This has uncovered an issue
<jodh>       with how empty strings are encoded which has necessitated a lot of
<jodh>       macro tweaks (in progress).
<jodh> * upstart
<jodh>   - bug 1049820: informed user of workaround and identified fix.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1049820 in upstart "Using kill signal SIGPWR results in system crash" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1049820
<jodh> ~
<jodh> sorry ev - I'm not getting competitive, honest!
<slangasek> jodh: any further comments on my merge request?  is it time to merge it?: )
<jodh> slangasek: which one? :) Do you mean the partial handling one?
<ev> hahaha
<slangasek> jodh: yes
<cjwatson> thanks for the comments on my MP; I'll get to them once I'm out from under a few other things
<jodh> well, the session test I'm currently working on touches on that whole area. TBH, I think that if we drop the partial handling, we also need the redesign whereby we serialise in the parent since we its a lot messier to back-out of an event_new() than creating a partial event.
<cjwatson> I thought the agreement was that serialising in the parent was simpler anyway ...
<jodh> slangasek: so, I think we do need to simplify that whole area, but it requires other changes to be applied together so I'll work on that.
<xnox> * rls-q-tracking:
<xnox>  - btrfs-tools mark quantal task as fixed released, due to merging new
<xnox>    upstream release back in may. Precise task is still open.
<xnox>  - partman-auto-lvm fixed 154086 in precise & quantal, patch send to
<xnox>    debian as well (stokachu *wink* )
<xnox>  - autofs bug #488696 did some analysis options are to fix buggy
<xnox>    lex/bison parser or to rewrite it in C (as libc does). But I don't
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 488696 in autofs5 (Ubuntu Precise) "syntax error in nsswitch config near [ syntax error ]" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/488696
<xnox>    have working lex/bison knowledge nor want to spend time ripping
<xnox>    libc specific bits out of the libc parser. Anyone up for fun times
<xnox>    with lex/yacc?!
<xnox>  - proposed a branch to fix the top crashes in ubiquity bug #1027648,
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1027648 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Quantal) "ubiquity crashed with ValueError in command(): I/O operation on closed file." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1027648
<xnox>    which is actually yet another incarnation of an older bug #792652.
<xnox>    Please review https://code.launchpad.net/~xnox/ubiquity/fix-value-errors/+merge/123727
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 792652 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Precise) "ubiquity crashed with ValueError in command(): I/O operation on closed file" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/792652
<xnox> * ubiquity:
<xnox>  - many bugfixes committed and uploaded
<jodh> yes it is and we plan to do that, but I'm currently working on the tests, being higher priority than that parent-serialisation work (it's in the TODO list :)
<xnox>  - good progress on hooking up manual crypt UI
<xnox>  - spent some time chatting with Riddell, Qt Automatic LVM & LUKS has
<xnox>    landed in trunk, pending FFe bug 1048712
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1048712 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Quantal) "FFe [kde] add LVM and LUKS options" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1048712
<cjwatson> fix-value-errors> on my list (somewhere), thanks
 * xnox realised it's my turn.
<cjwatson> need to think hard about that
<xnox> true....
<xnox> .. *done* ..
<barry> more consumption of gwibber spaghetti, but it's getting progressively more gluten-free as we're nearing completion of the py3 port.  worked a bit on support for the py3 port of twisted (buildbots, ppas).  bug #1048710 (patches landed upstream, but discussion is ongoing).  bug #887699 (postponed).  no change to q blueprints.  will atone today for my lack of patch piloting yesterday.  will continue with r planning of py3 work.  done.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1048710 in python3.2 (Ubuntu) "Regression in argparse for Python 2.7, 3.2 and 3.3" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1048710
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887699 in python-distutils-extra (Ubuntu) "python-mkdebian: Support python3 projects" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887699
<slangasek> jodh: hmm, I don't agree that these things are tied; I think the 'partial' reworking stands on its own...  but ok, we can discuss outside the meeting
<cjwatson> Got permission to open-source the bits of cdimage that weren't already released, in conjunction with my Python rewrite; so I've been powering ahead with that rewrite.  In branch hell at the moment.
<cjwatson> Working on GRUB 2.00 packaging; FFe approved as long as I get it landed this week, so aiming for that.  Testing looking fairly good so far.
<cjwatson> Worked on a test for ptrace handling across stateful-reexec in Upstart.  Needs a few tidy-ups before landing, but James and I confirmed that ptrace is preserved which saves a chunk of work.
<cjwatson> Tidied up various glitches in the squashfs-base server image (bug 1028453, bug 1049011).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1028453 in livecd-rootfs (Ubuntu) "Quantal Ubuntu Server minimal install oversized" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1028453
<cjwatson> Added a couple of binaries to ubuntustudio-meta on request of the Ubuntu Studio folks.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1049011 in live-installer (Ubuntu Quantal) "Quantal server installation fails to install kernel" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1049011
<cjwatson> Backported fix for data-loss bug in 'sort -u' (bug 1038468).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1038468 in coreutils (Ubuntu Precise) "data loss on sort -u" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1038468
<cjwatson> Lots of rebuilds for glew and tiff transitions.
<cjwatson> ..
<ogra_> done:
<ogra_>  * plenty of ac100 testing, fixing etc
<ogra_>  * held panda install hangout talk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsIW7EF103A
<ogra_>  * flash-kernel: worked on hiding boot devices
<ogra_>  * started on updating the arm install wikis
<ogra_>  * some GLES driver work (kernel tests etc for fixing the remaining issues) for bug 1045491
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1045491 in pvr-omap4 (Ubuntu Quantal) "Moving mouse messes up the desktop" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1045491
<ogra_>  * looked into lshw, it defaults to run dmidecode as first test on all arches, started looking into a fix
<ogra_> todo:
<ogra_>  * finish flash-kernel changes
<ogra_>  * inspect framebuffer and kbd issues with d-i on panda (1045855 and 1045788)
<ogra_>  * get the kernel fixes for 1045491 finally applied
<ogra_>  * finish wikipages
<ogra_> ..
<stgraber>  - Container
<stgraber>    - Worked on upstream repository, got daily builds setup, soon to be integrated with the test suite (Serge is working on that part)
<stgraber>    - Announced the upstream staging branch, reviewed and merged quite a few more changes
<stgraber>    - Rewrote lxc-start-ephemeral in python3 using the API (used to be shell) and pushed upstream
<stgraber>    - Reviewed Serge's changes to the server guide (covering apparmor changes, seccomp, hooks and API)
<stgraber>    - Started preparing a blog post on the API
<stgraber>  - Release
<stgraber>    - Beta-1 release with the usual tweaks to lp:ubuntu-archive-tools
<stgraber>    - A few FFe/UIFe reviews
<stgraber>  - Networking
<stgraber>    - Spent some time going through bug 1003656 again, hopefully fixed for good this time. Forwarded change to Debian.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1003656 in bridge-utils (Ubuntu Precise) "bridge-utils/vlan udev hooks prevent execution of upstart hook, slowing down boot" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1003656
<stgraber>    - Re-added missing dhclient-script code checking for /etc/resolv.conf writability (when not using resolvconf), forwarded to Debian
<stgraber>    - Uploaded resolvconf with bugfix for bug 1035076 and bug 994575
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1035076 in resolvconf (Ubuntu) "dnscache resolvconf update script still accesses /etc/resolvconf/run/" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1035076
<stgraber>    - Reviewed fix in bug 752481 and uploaded
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 994575 in resolvconf (Ubuntu Precise) "/etc/ppp/ip-up.d/000resolvconf should "exit 0" if pppd was run by NM, since NM will register the nameserver addresses itself" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/994575
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 752481 in ifupdown (Ubuntu) "networking is not actually brought down/up when moving to/from runlevel 1" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/752481
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>    - Some ARB package reviews
<stgraber>    - Tested new grub2 from cjwatson's PPA
<stgraber>  - TODO
<stgraber>    - Continue with isc-dhcp bugfixes
<stgraber>    - Look at merging ifupdown 0.7.2 (should be bugfix only)
<stgraber>    - Go through the other networking related packages seeing if there's something else that needs fixing for 12.10
<stgraber>    - ISO tracker work
<stgraber> (DONE)
<cjwatson> doko: ?
<doko> - openjdk-7 backport for precise
<doko> - binutils and gcc-4.7 updates (toward the 2.23 and 4.7.2 releases).
<doko> - start ubuntu+1 maintenance
<doko> - worked on component mismatches, filed outstanding bug reports, pestered people, and processed some MIRs
<doko> - cleaning up NBS, bug fixes, package removals
<doko> (done)
<ev> - Massive http://errors.ubuntu.com deployment.
<ev>   - We've now gone live with our own handling of openid. Your session will be
<ev>     cached - you'll no longer have to log into every individual problem or
<ev>     instance page. This also will let us map your teams to the packages those
<ev>     teams are responsible for, in order to give you a custom view of the most
<ev>     common problems table.
<ev>   - We've iterated over the most common problems table a lot. The coloring
<ev>     should be a bit more obvious (we're still working through this) and it
<ev>     should be a lot easier to read overall.
<ev>   - The graph finally has a denominator of the number of unique systems over a
<ev>     90 day span. I have to manually run a script for each day for this until
<ev>     my merge to canonical-memento gets merged.
<ev>   - The graph now changes to reflect what packages and Ubuntu version you've
<ev>     selected. So you can now see how often software-center crashes over time.
<ev>   - You can create bug links where they don't already exist. Woo.
<ev>   - The Loading of the most common problems table has been sped up again. In
<ev>     my tests it loads somewhere between 1483 and 1988ms, but production is
<ev>     still somehow a bit sluggish. Investigating further.
<ev>   - The coloring of the most common problems table actually reflects the
<ev>     selected release. The first seen and last seen fields do as well.
<ev> - Started testing Cassandra authentication on behalf of the webops team so
<ev>   that we can give Brian read-only access to the DB.
<ev> - Lots of bug fixes. I'll spare you listing them all here for a change.
<ev> - Merges from both Brian and Matthew. Yay contributors!
<ev> (done)
<infinity> - kernel SRU wrangling
<infinity> - utouch->oif rename SRU reviews/shepherding
<infinity> - other random SRU and AA work
<infinity> - some FFe reviews
<infinity> - discussions about offspring and cdimage mating
<infinity> - discussions with IS about the state of buildd upgrades
<infinity> - worked on livefs-in-soyuz stuff a bit
<infinity> - a few FTBFS fixes
<infinity> - looked into dpkg SRU for bug #624877
<infinity> - started looking at clang updates
<infinity> â¦â¦â¦
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 624877 in linux (Ubuntu) "INFO: task dpkg:23317 blocked for more than 120 seconds." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/624877
<ev> sorry if that's entirely incoherent. I was working with Matthew on how we present the coloring if we're showing all the releases at once, and entirely forgot we had the meeting. Oops.
<bdmurray> research into package install failures and less useful dpkgterminallog files - 'can not write log'
<bdmurray> added patch / branch information to rls-q-tracking and incoming reports
<bdmurray> added count per team to rls-q reports on cranberry
<bdmurray> errors branch to display Launchpad bug report on a bucket page
<bdmurray> errors branch to sort package versions on a bucket page
<bdmurray> errors branch to display the release(s) a package version is in on a bucket page
<bdmurray> modified needs-packaging wishlisting code to be more lenient regarding bug title renaming
<bdmurray> branch for sponsoring page to show nominated tasks (bug 833706)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 833706 in ubuntu-sponsoring "Show pending SRU nominations" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/833706
<bdmurray> bug fix for aptdaemon bug 875879
<bdmurray> worked on fixing apport bug 1039220
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 875879 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Precise) "update-manager crashed with AttributeError in show_diff(): 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'group'" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/875879
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1039220 in apport (Ubuntu Quantal) "don't report crashes for programs that don't match the file on disk (like for kernel crashes)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1039220
<bdmurray> done
<cjwatson> ok, thanks all
<cjwatson> #topic bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: bugs
<cjwatson> my rough impression is that rls-q-tracking has been trending downwards, but I don't know if there are any graphs of that so I'm going off memory
<bdmurray> I ran across bug 988583 again and was wondering if that might be fixed with the new version of grub2
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 988583 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub-mount hangs when update-grub is ran" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/988583
<bdmurray> cjwatson: there are no graphs for rls-q-tracking but there is a number in the report now
<cjwatson> bdmurray: it's certainly possible; there've been a number of changes in the hfsplus driver
<bdmurray> and I recall it being at around 50 last week
<ev> oooh, is one of those changes write support?
<cjwatson> including things like "Add btree loop check"
<cjwatson> ev: ... in grub?
<ev> hahaha
<ev> sorry
<bdmurray> additionally per steve's suggestion I added in a P and a B for bugs with patches or branches
<ev> I missed that part :)
<cjwatson> knee.  stop jerking.
<cjwatson> bdmurray: I'll leave a note on that bug asking for testing
<bdmurray> cjwatson: okay, thanks
<bdmurray> with the dropping of the alternates cdromupgrade will no longer be supported - is that correct? bug 1045201
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1045201 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Precise to Quantal: cdromupgrade of Ubuntu Desktop failed with cannot calculate dependencies" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1045201
<cjwatson> we should probably go round images and check, but that's my understanding
<xnox> i wonder though... there is a package pool on the quantal cd's with optional/restricted packages....
<xnox> does update-manager pick that up as upgrade pool?
<cjwatson> it's probably still on the server CD, probably mistakenly
<cjwatson> since apt isn't going to have a whole lot of luck upgrading the base system from the squashfs
<cjwatson> xnox: you know I'm actually not sure
<bdmurray> so it sounds like there is some testing to be done
<cjwatson> update-notifier distinguishes between "CD with packages", "CD with dist-upgrader", "CD with addons", "CD with aptoncd"
 * xnox commented on the bug
<cjwatson> I don't think we'll get the dist-upgrader one but it might well show up as having packages
<cjwatson> arguably correctly
<cjwatson> This is the difference between:
<cjwatson>   A volume with software packages has been detected.  Would you like to open it with the package manager?
<cjwatson> and:
<cjwatson>   A distribution volume with software packages has been detected.  Would you like to try to upgrade from it automatically?
<xnox> cjwatson: will you comment on the bug?
 * xnox didn't even think about aptoncd
<cjwatson> it's actually not relevant because it's commented out
<xnox> also how does one produce "DVD with dist-upgrader" for personal reasons.
<cjwatson> packages vs. dist-upgrader are the only two we actually need to care about
<cjwatson> I suggest you start with data/apt-cdrom-check in update-notifier
<cjwatson> anyway all the stuff that apt-cdrom-check looks for is basically under the same chunk of code in debian-cd
<cjwatson> so it's easy enough to switch on and off
<cjwatson> (for dist-upgrader support)
<cjwatson> I've commented on the bug by the time-honoured method of copy and paste
<cjwatson> next?
 * xnox who is "you" in the "I suggest you.."? (or did my connection drop and I missed something)
<cjwatson> xnox: you, since you asked 'how does one produce "DVD with dist-upgrader"'
<xnox> ah ok.
<bdmurray> is bug 1013681 still something fixable for quantal?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1013681 in apt (Ubuntu Quantal) "make apt-key net-update secure" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1013681
<cjwatson> apt-cdrom-check will show you what it's looking for
 * xnox got it.
<cjwatson> well, I've acked the proposed approach on 1013681 now although not the specifics
<cjwatson> it's not a security hole as the code is currently disabled, so I'd rather not rush mvo into it; if he's comfortable that what he has now is secure then he should upload it, if not then we can live without it for another release IMO
<bdmurray> okay so let's wait on won't fix'ing
<bdmurray> that's all I had for today
<mvo> cjwatson: it will require a server side change
<mvo> cjwatson: if you guys are happy with the new proposed schema we can upload (once the server side is updated)
<mvo> but I (much) agree we should not rush this :) it caused enough pain already :/
<cjwatson> Of course I can't help with the server side change at the moment because we don't have our sudo access back yet on pepo
<cjwatson> You'll probably have to ask webops
 * xnox got some help with autofs flex parser from mjt =)
 * xnox \0/
<cjwatson> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<cjwatson> xnox: oh good
<cjwatson> any more for any more?
<ev> the 12.10 and 12.04 lines on errors.ubuntu.com have not converged
<ev> and we're getting ever closer to release day
<ev> not sure how to spin that into a positive :)
<infinity> Are we expecting them to converge?
<ev> infinity: I would hope so. It currently implies that 12.10 is less stable than 12.04
<infinity> A stable release with a ton of post-release bugfixing, versus a new release with a ton of new software and new bugs?
<xnox> ev: having them no converged is ok, as long as quantal one is below precise..... but that is not the case
<xnox> ev: having them not converged is ok, as long as quantal one is below precise..... but that is not the case
<infinity> (I mean, I'd like each release to be better than the last, but right after an LTS and a massive push to stabilise said LTS seems like a bit of a hard benchmark)
<ev> but surely we don't want to ship something less stable than what we put out previously?
<ogra_> heh
<ev> one step forward, two steps back and all that
<ogra_> can we hire 100 more devs then ?
<infinity> ev: I think the only way to guarantee that is to stop fixing bugs in the LTS. :P
 * micahg would think that applies LTS -> LTS
 * xnox was considering to propose that Debian releases when RC(stable) > RC(testing) for a period of 3+ months....
<ogra_> micahg, ++
 * ev beats ogra_ to death with the mythical man month
<micahg> or interim -> interim
<cjwatson> I can't figure out how to get the table below the graphs to show me just problems in 12.10
<TheLordOfTime> cjwatson:  on errors.u.c?
<cjwatson> Yes
<ev> cjwatson: change the "error reports for" to Ubuntu 12.10
<TheLordOfTime> ^ that
<TheLordOfTime> near the top of that
<TheLordOfTime> page
<cjwatson> I do not see a widget labelled thus
<cjwatson> There are clicky things labelled "Ubuntu 12.04" and "Ubuntu 12.10"
<ev> above that
<ev> to the left
<cjwatson> Oh I see, duh
<cjwatson> Thanks
<ev> just under the site navigation
<TheLordOfTime> :P
<ev> sure thing
<ev> that's changing, by the way
<ev> to something you'll presumably find a bit more intuitive
<ev> I'll post the mockup shortly
 * xnox presumes cjwatson scrolled down to the table ignoring the pretty pictures and colourful css and then tried to control the table....
<ev> but it's like jml summarised in that canonical-tech posting:
<cjwatson> The 12.10 list seems pretty dominated by software-center
<ev>    * Don't show your work-in-progress. Make it look like it came from
<ev> heaven. You aren't going to get a second chance after they use your
<ev> buggy app.
<ev>      * Ship 3.0.
<cjwatson> xnox: No, I was misled by "all installed versions"
<ev> I just don't think it's acceptable that we throw something out there that's less stable than 12.04 just because 12.04 was an LTS
<ev> I have no doubt I'll be overruled on this :)
<ev> but I want to make that sentiment known
<xnox> ev: Debian folks will love you =)
<ev> somehow I doubt that
<ev> Debian folks and I don't generally get along
 * xnox remembers something about "time-based releases"
<ogra_> ev, seriously, the LTS got several extra months of stabilization
<slangasek> yeah, we Debian folk don't get on with ev
<ev> what with my love for our inherited package system and development process
<ogra_> how could 12.10 even remotely be more stable
<ev> ogra_: because we shouldn't be letting things through that make it less stable. 12.04 should be the bar.
<infinity> ev: Generally, I agree with you that each release should be an obvious quality iteration over the last, but the way we did post-release development on the LTS, it's a bit hard to demand that the next non-LTS measure up, bug-wise (though, it should be shinier and featurier!)
<ogra_> to do a proper comparison here you would have to compare a snapshot of 12.04 that was taken at the same time in the cycle to todays quantal at least
<slangasek> infinity: it's not hard at all to demand it, it's just hard to deliver it
<infinity> ev: "Shouldn't be letting things through that make it less stable" means "no new upstream GNOME or KDE" (etc), which just ain't gonna happen.
<davmor2> ogra_: not switch it on?
<ev> we shouldn't consider each release independent of one another, otherwise we're always going to be going back and forth between remotely stable and hideously unstable
<infinity> slangasek: Heh.
<slangasek> I think we absolutely should demand it ;)
<ogra_> davmor2, lol
<ev> so for what it's worth, Matthew has asked Rick to make that graph release criteria in the future
<ogra_> oh my
<micahg> ev: no, but you have to compare apples to apples, 10.04 -> 12.04, 10.10 -> 12.10
<ogra_> ev, then pretty please sync up the comparison timelines
<ev> micahg, ogra_: then we'll at best be racing to catch up with the LTS as we get close to it
<ogra_> you cant really compare something that had 50% more time and work invested into it with something unfinished if you dont look at the same timeframe
<slangasek> micahg: why should we tolerate the newer release being crashier than the older one, LTS or not?
<ev> we won't be getting more stable than the LTS
<ev> and we wont be able to promise stable releases to our users between releases
<slangasek> ogra_: why is "something unfinished" uploaded to the archive? :)
<micahg> slangasek: because the LTS is feature conservative which starts you out in a better place quality wise
<ogra_> slangasek, the release as such isnt finished :)
<slangasek> ogra_: right, so you're arguing we should compare 12.10 today with 12.04 at the same point pre-release instead of comparing it with 12.04 today
<ev> welcome mpt. Thought you might find this chat interesting
<ogra_> all i'm sayin is that you need to compate precise after 5 months of development with quantal after 5months of development
<ogra_> else the measuring is nonsense
<infinity> We wouldn't need such pesky things as "feature freeze", if every new feature was landed bug-free.  Adding new software will add bugs, period.
<micahg> even that might not be a fair comparison
<infinity> And the LTS had 3 months of extra bug-fixing.
<slangasek> ogra_: the point is that we want to be constantly ratcheting up the quality
<ogra_> *compare
<infinity> (Heck, it continues to have bug-fixing)
<slangasek> and not just delivering something that's "as good" at release time as the last one
<ogra_> slangasek, how if we have a huge dump of new sowftware each cycle that needs stabilization first
<ev> infinity: sure - but shouldn't we be forward porting those fixes too?
<ogra_> it will always be a sinus
<slangasek> and the way to do that is to hold ourselves to a higher standard than what we delivered before
<slangasek> ogra_: by not allowing huge dumps of software still in need of stabilization
<ev> slangasek: ++
<infinity> ev: Old fixes don't magically apply to new features.
<ogra_> it might raise over tie
<micahg> right, while there's a 6 mo release cycle, it's really a 2 yr/4 release cycle
<infinity> ev: But yes, where they apply, of course they should be forward-ported and upstreamed.
<slangasek> anyway, I'm not here today so I should perhaps stop derailing the meeting ;)
<ev> hahaha
<ogra_> but after all quality will droip through the cycle and has to be re-established every release
<cjwatson> Old fixes - our processes tend to ensure this anyway by demanding that fixes land in the development release before being SRUed
<cjwatson> (except near release)
<slangasek> ogra_: that's the pattern of the past.  I don't think we should accept it as inevitable for the future.
<micahg> so, each LTS should be progressively better, each LTS + 1 should be progressively better
<ogra_> slangasek, by doin what ? take over all upstreams ?
<ogra_> we dont really have any influence here
<slangasek> sure we do
<ev> micahg: only if we're chasing quality rather than demanding it up front, the chances of that happening are slim
<slangasek> we don't take stuff that's not ready :)
<ogra_> tricky :)
<ev> micahg: especially over the distance between LTSes
<cjwatson> slangasek: I do think auto-syncs would be completely impractical if we applied that standard in general
<cjwatson> We can do it for stuff we touch anyway
<micahg> ev: it's hard not to break stuff when you land a new everything, I would think the goal is to improve that over time as we have more automated test coverage
<ev> suddenly in 3 months of LTS development we have to care about getting *better* than the previous LTS was
<ogra_> note that i dont disagree that quality should raise with each release ... i just dont think the way we measure quality id right here
<ogra_> *is
<xnox> workitems burn-down chart has negative correlation with positive slope on the the errors chart
<micahg> ev: I would think that each 2yr LTS cycle the quality gets better so you don't have to chase up quality at the last minute
<ev> ogra_: what's wrong with how we're measuring it?
<ogra_> since it doesnt apply to the real world scenario
<slangasek> cjwatson: yes, another good point
<ogra_> ev, if you measure R rigth after the big debian import and compare it to quantal final, R will be highly more unstable at that point
<infinity> ev: Well, in an "ideal" world, the number of incidents per day in an LTS should approach 0 as people backport and fix old bugs.  (Sure, it won't reach 0, but that's the goal).
<ev> micahg: we shouldn't be landing a new everything unless it's not making the line go up. If it does, reject it until we can show that it doesn't affect stability
<infinity> ev: In a new release with new features and new bugs, we can never converge on that line, only on a data point in the past, as Oli points out.
<cjwatson> ogra_: That will hopefully change as we move to using -proposed
<ev> we shouldn't be giving people a blanket license to upload whatever broken software they want
<ev> because "we'll fix it eventually"
<ogra_> you need to compare the two points in time, not the final product with a product in the works
<cjwatson> The vast majority of auto-sync breakage is just transient dependency kerfuffle, and that's detectable
<ev> ogra_: right, and I'm saying we shouldn't do that.
<micahg> ev: you can't predict every interaction, over time it will get better, but there will be bumps along the way, one would hope that it's new bumps each time though rather than the old ones
<xnox> infinity: well it will reach to 0, because people will upgrade from the LTS to get shiny candy from asterisk or unity or emacs (or whatever tickles their fancy)
<ogra_> ev, how else will you accurately measure then ?
<ev> if something from an import is proving unstable, kick it out until we can prove otherwise
 * cjwatson proposes ev runs the auto-syncs for a while ;-)
<infinity> xnox: Neat theory, but plenty of people (including us!) still us hardy in production.
<ogra_> my mom uses hardy :)
<infinity> s/still us/still use/
<xnox> infinity: i remember upgrading from potato last year....
 * ogra_ recently discovered that 
<ev> cjwatson: I'm not saying don't do the autosyncs. I'm saying that if something passes through whatever QA we have and is showing up as buggy on errors.ubuntu.com, and we're not going to immediately fix it, then revert back to the old version.
<xnox> ev: should we sync from testing by default then? such that we don't get debian's RC bugs, which will put us behind debian in terms of features, as users are free to run debian unstable to get shiny stuff
<infinity> ev: It's also pretty unrealistic (IMO) to say "well, if you land the new GNOME stack and it has new bugs that hurt the pretty graph, we should revert the whole thing until it can all magically be fixed without testers".
<ev> infinity: why?
<ogra_> ev, what you are proposing means that every package has to be touched ....
<ev> I just don't think we can accept these as the rules of the game
<ogra_> no more autosyncing etc
<ev> I realise our tooling isn't entirely there
<ev> but we should focus on that
<infinity> ev: Hey, if you want to be the one who figures out how to reliably downgrade everyone to an old GNOME version, be my guest.  But that's wasted effort.
<infinity> ev: It's not about "tooling".
<ev> rather than focus on continuing to shovel broken software in and throwing our hands in the air when we talk about being able to revert bad decisions
 * ogra_ hands ev the manhour back with the last sentence :P
<cjwatson> ev: I actually quite seriously think that -proposed will sort out omost of the auto-sync chaos
<cjwatson> ev: Given that practically none of the stuff we see on errors.ubuntu.com is auto-synced from Debian; it's nearly all Ubuntu-specific stuff
<xnox> ev: what about facebook style deployements "reverts are for suckers" policy which implies "everyone help fix the last deployment NOW"
<ev> this is getting slightly off track. It's ultimately unrelated to whether we use those lines as release criteria
<ev> xnox: sure
<ev> this is why I think we're off track
<cjwatson> ev: Which has implied to me for some time that worrying about imports of other people's software is misdirected effort, and we need to get our own in-house-developed software in order instead
<ev> even if we accept broken software into the archive
<ogra_> xnox, yay, after hours !
<ev> we should be fixing that *now*
<ev> not in a few releases
<infinity> cjwatson: Yeah, I won't disagree with that.
<ev> cjwatson: to be honest, I'd like to get to the point where we can measure the actual usage of this software
<ev> I think a lot of time is wasted on merges and syncs that are done because people can
<ev> and not because anyone is actually using the software
<xnox> ogra_: well... it all mater only up to... it's time for my volleyball practice. And by that time US folks are up ;-)
<ev> and then we could take the number of people using a package, the number of errors it has, and make a real judgement on whether its worth our investment
<ogra_> that surely doesnt apply to main
<ev> of qa, engineering, etc
<cjwatson> I wonder how much time you think is wasted on auto-syncs; it's not that much
<ogra_> (or what MoM lists as main)
<stgraber> well, if something isn't widely used, it's unlikely to have an Ubuntu delta, so it's just a "free" auto-sync then
<xnox> "free" auto-sync with bugs.
<infinity> We'll sometimes carry a small FTBFS delta, but that's never onerous.
 * xnox wanted new offlineimap and I am not affected by it's new bug..... yet everyone else is.....
<ogra_> stgraber, apart from libs and transitions that come down the drain and need manual intervention on a set of ubuntu maintained bits
<infinity> Anything with an actual runtime bugfix kinda implies someone used it and found a bug.
<stgraber> ogra_: right, but these are mostly easy/repetitive/scriptable kind of work, not multi-hours kind of merges like we have on some other packages
<ogra_> yeah, indeed, but its work nontheless and migth have impact on e-u-c graphs
<infinity> Anyhow, we already spend a majority of our engineering time on a tiny subset of the archive, and most of the time people complain about having to fix a transition or touch a package "that doesn't matter", they could have fixed it in the time it took to whine. :P
<cjwatson> I also worry about the underlying notion that even if only 1% of our userbase uses something, say, that we can afford to incrementally annoy 1% of our users in slices until they're all gone
<stgraber> xnox: for something that doesn't have an Ubuntu delta, I prefer being in sync with Debian so that we can directly forward any bug report there than run an old version that's supposedly more stable (we don't really know) and where when it breaks we'd just be told that we're using an outdated version
<ev> cjwatson: I think the data (if we ever get it) will first show that our userbase isn't a collection of 1% slices
<cjwatson> I'd much rather be very inclusive of the long tail
<stgraber> cjwatson: +1 on the whining is taking up way more time than actually fixing it :)
<xnox> stgraber: yeah... I uploaded into debian ;-)
<cjwatson> ev: I also think that the effort of discussing most of this exceeds the effort involved in leaving it there :-)
<ev> :)
 * infinity thinks that perhaps this meeting has run its course, and it's time for us to plan an in-person sprint, with boxing gloves.
<ev> yes please
<cjwatson> 1% is a random number obviously but I have at least some anecdotal evidence in the form of upset messages in my inbox from a reasonable percentage of the packages I remove from the archive
<cjwatson> Many of which I thought were so obscure nobody would care
<cjwatson> It turns out we have users who care about different business-specific requirements ;-)
<ev> cjwatson: we could always work out a system whereby it got copied to another pocket
<ev> instead of removed entirely
<ev> err moved
<ev> one that our users don't have to deal with
<infinity> ev: That's just adding complexity, I don't see how that fixes anything.
<cjwatson> Well, this was stuff that had been removed from Debian, generally
<ev> ah
<cjwatson> Not removing it means we assume responsibility
<slangasek> geez, y'all are still going? :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<ogra_> haha
<infinity> \o/
<cjwatson> So I think those removals were generally correct, but even in those should-be-fairly-uncontroversial cases, a good fraction of the removals cause user upset
<cjwatson> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 12 16:20:20 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-15.01.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-12-15.01.html
<cjwatson> The man's right :)
 * cjwatson distracted by argument
<infinity> I'm going to /part and avoid being suckered into continuing this argument today. :P
<stgraber> :)
 * highvoltage has managed to avoid arguments all day long so far
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-09-13
<yofel> o/
<JontheEchidna> o/
<d__ed> o/
<Riddell> good evening friends
<Riddell> let's have a kubuntu meeting
<JontheEchidna> sure, why not? :)
<Riddell> alas ScottK can't be with us but he's briefed me on his thinking
<shadeslayer> \o
<apachelogger> ahoy
<Riddell> yay
<Riddell> we have a quorum
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
<Riddell> where shall we start?
<JontheEchidna> what is "Emerge support partner update" on the agenda?
<Riddell> that's from last time
<Riddell> nice company who want to offer support for kubuntu
<Riddell> with profits going back to kubuntu
<JontheEchidna> ah, I must have not been able to attend that meeting
<Riddell> he was on holiday but said he's got an agreement with canonical now and needs to go over it with his legal person
<Riddell> and it's a priority for him
<JontheEchidna> that's great
<shadeslayer> oh, sounds really cool
<shadeslayer> do we have notes on how that works?
<Riddell> how what works?
<shadeslayer> providing support etc
<Quintasan> \o
<Riddell> he's got a company lined up to do it, when they're ready to launch we make a big splash and hope there's someone who wants to buy it
<Quintasan> hmm
<shadeslayer> oh ... so they offer services and profits come back to us
<Quintasan> sounds nice
<shadeslayer> sounds cool
<Riddell> shall we do some 12.10 features review?
<JontheEchidna> sounds good to me
<Riddell> has every tried beta 1?
<Riddell> has everyone tried beta 1?
<d__ed> I have
<JontheEchidna> I've been running quantal since the archive opened :)
<IdleOne> running it now
<shadeslayer> aye
<Quintasan> I think I updated my quantal vm yesterday and it was quite smooth
<Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/QuantalQuetzal/Beta1/Kubuntu lists most of the new stuff
<yofel> me too, but I'm not sure if I noticed everything we changed
 * shadeslayer needs to go back to precise however
<Riddell> hmm where to start?
<Riddell> with the easy stuff maybe
<Riddell> adding skanlite and kamoso seems fairly uncontrovertial
<Riddell> any comments?
<JontheEchidna> good additions, +1
<shadeslayer> yep
<apachelogger> how much space does kamoso eat up?
<Riddell> 197 kB
<Quintasan> Did skanlite get any updates? I recall it was pretty plain when I used it last time
<apachelogger> Riddell: no additional deps?
<apachelogger> (compared to what we have)
<JontheEchidna> apachelogger: the only other non-qt deps seem to be qtgstreamer, which we were already pulling in for the QApt GStreamer installer thingy
<JontheEchidna> *non-qt/kde
<d__ed> and for KTp's call UI.
<Riddell> telepathy also pulls in the gstreamer bits
<apachelogger> kipi-plugins is new
<Quintasan> Was about to comment on how funny it looks: non-qt deps and we pull qtgstreamer :D
<shadeslayer> d__ed: we don't ship call ui on the cd
<apachelogger> huh
<apachelogger> kipi-plugins is actually quite excessive
<yofel> we have kipi-plugins on the image?
<apachelogger> it is a recommends, so I'd assume so
<Quintasan> apachelogger: Would you rather have Gwenview or other apps that use kipi-plugins prompt user to install additional software?
<apachelogger> also kamoso without kipi-plugins quite frankly makes even less sense
<Riddell> no kipi-plugins on http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/daily-live/20120913/quantal-desktop-amd64.manifest
<yofel> apachelogger: it's actually a suggests in quantal
<Riddell> we're not short of space on the images now
<apachelogger> ok, so I raise the thought that without kipi-plugins kamoso is only half as use"full"
<yofel> we are using quite a bit already though, does someone know how much kipi-plugins would use?
<Riddell> adding kipi-plugins seems the obvious answer then
<Quintasan> +1 on adding kipi-plugins if we have the space
<apachelogger> the plugins themselfs are some 3 mib
<apachelogger> + it has deps
<Riddell> hi Mamarok, currently discussing kamoso and kipi-plugins
<apachelogger> so that warrants technical investigation IMHO
<apachelogger> at any rate +1 on both as long as kipi does not drag in unresonable amounts of deps
<yofel> agreed
<Riddell> adding kipi-plugins to my newly installed machine says 74MB to download
<Riddell> erk
<apachelogger> otherwise kipi may get split
<apachelogger> Riddell: kipi split then
<apachelogger> kamoso only uses like 3 plugins
 * apachelogger puts on todo
<apachelogger> let's move on
<Riddell> ACTION: investigate splitting kipi - apachelogger
<shadeslayer> erm
 * Quintasan scratches his head
<tsimpson> you didn't #startmeeting
<shadeslayer> aye ^
<yofel> talking about disk space - does anyone mind shipping all resolutions of the default wallpaper by default instead of just 1920x1200?
<shadeslayer> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Sep 13 18:17:27 2012 UTC.  The chair is shadeslayer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<shadeslayer> #chair Riddell
<meetingology> Current chairs: Riddell shadeslayer
<shadeslayer> #unchair shadeslayer
<meetingology> Current chairs: Riddell shadeslayer
<Quintasan> yofel: I was wondering why we are not using SVG
<Riddell> tsimpson: shrug, I find doing it manually is no harder :)
<shadeslayer> wat
<shadeslayer> tsimpson: the bot be broken :P
<Riddell> yofel: what's the advantage?
<apachelogger> Quintasan: Qt only has tinysvg renderering
<tsimpson> Riddell: just make is easier to copy-paste the minutes in my experience
 * xnox #meetingname ?! or use #startmeeting Secret Society Meeting
<Quintasan> apachelogger: Can't say that it tells me anything apart from implied "it won't work"
<tsimpson> shadeslayer: bug AlanBell :)
<apachelogger> Riddell: you do not get bogus wallpaper scaling on non-widescreen resolutions
<shadeslayer> :P
<apachelogger> Riddell: also faster netbook start
<shadeslayer> ACTION: investigate splitting kipi - apachelogger
<apachelogger> also faster mobile start
<Riddell> #action investigate splitting kipi - apachelogger
<meetingology> ACTION: investigate splitting kipi - apachelogger
<apachelogger> also faster everythign start given appropriate screen size
<shadeslayer> ah ok
<Riddell> #action investigate adding all wallpaper sizes to CD - yofel
<meetingology> ACTION: investigate adding all wallpaper sizes to CD - yofel
<yofel> Riddell: might look more consistent and might help with some weird bug where the settings show a ghost '1900x1200' entry in the wallpaper settings by default. I'll try to test this and will get back to you
<Riddell> Kde-Config-Tablet anyone used it?
<JontheEchidna> not I
<shadeslayer> no hardware to test
<Quintasan> apachelogger: In other words, using SVG as wallpaper is not possible?
<d__ed> no, I do have hardware though.
<apachelogger> Quintasan: not as viable anyway
<Quintasan> tablet as in wacom tablets or tablet as in transformer?
<Riddell> Quintasan: wacom
 * Quintasan will looks for his wacom tablet
<apachelogger> d__ed should test ;)
<Riddell> the name could do with some clarification
 * AlanBell wonders if anyone has even tried to use #unchair before
<apachelogger> Riddell: postpone decision until either of the two has used it?
<Riddell> apachelogger: I'd assign the action but I'd feel bad until d__ed has said if he actually want to do it
<apachelogger> given that there is (as usual) no viable data anywhere whetehr it works and does what it is supposed to, it makes little sense to make a decision here IMHO
<d__ed> ok, I'll do it (or try at least)
<Riddell> don't let us pressure you into it!
<d__ed> it's fine :)
<Riddell> #action test kde-config-tablet in quantal - d__ed, Quintasan
<meetingology> ACTION: test kde-config-tablet in quantal - d__ed, Quintasan
<Riddell> Print Manager, how's it working?
<Riddell> I've tried it with a new laser printer I've picked up and it works well
<Quintasan> ha, I have managed to add my printer and print something
<JontheEchidna> I've not had any problems on my end either
<Quintasan> pretty smooth considering it was a pain to set it up ealier
<Riddell> the UI of the config tool is acceptable but not as nice as the one I made for s-c-p-k back in the day in my opinion
<Riddell> but the applet is much more pretty
<Riddell> and doesn't have the obvious bugs in it
<Riddell> anyone looked at the upstream discussion recently?
<Riddell> dantti proposed it on kde-core-devel
<shadeslayer> "Review Request: print-manager on kdereview"
<shadeslayer> that one?
<Riddell> shadeslayer: yes
<apachelogger> aye
<AlanBell> Riddell: tsimpson: shadeslayer: #unchair works, but you can't unchair yourself. That probably seemed like a sensible safety precaution at the time.
<apachelogger> IIRC there was some l10n issue
<apachelogger> worth looking into
<Riddell> it had the obvious problem of needing system-config-printer-gnome but I removed the errors because they're not actually needed
<shadeslayer> AlanBell: ah :D
<Riddell> and ScottK pointed me to https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/902762 where till discusses that it can probably be fixed anyway
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 902762 in system-config-printer (Ubuntu Quantal) "scp-dbus-service.py crashed with ImportError in __main__: No module named asyncconn" [High,Fix released]
<shadeslayer> Hm, should buy a printer
<apachelogger> +1 on print-manager
<apachelogger> it's the future I tell ya
<shadeslayer> I do remember setting up a printer for a teacher at my college a year ago, did not work out so well
<JontheEchidna> +1 print manager
<Riddell> #action review kde-core-devel for print-manager discussion - riddell
<meetingology> ACTION: review kde-core-devel for print-manager discussion - riddell
<shadeslayer> ( printed about a 100 blank test pages )
<Riddell> Colord KDE
<Riddell> anyone used it
<Riddell> or have a use for it?
<Quintasan> lol shadeslayer probably didn't insert the cartidge :P
 * apachelogger does not know what it is for
<Riddell> it's in because of rumours that ubuntu desktop has a colour calibration tool
<shadeslayer> Riddell: I hear good things about it
<Riddell> shadeslayer: from whom?
<shadeslayer> haven't used one myself
<shadeslayer> Riddell: people on G+
<apachelogger> also are there not two implementations of color calibration right now?
<shadeslayer> don't ask me for specific posts because I don't remember
<yofel> we do have kgamma - but I don't know what exactly colord does
<shadeslayer> I believe you can use a Hugghe(?) device to use colord-kde
 * Quintasan shrugs
<shadeslayer> not sure how to pronounce it
<Quintasan> Never used such stuff.
<JontheEchidna> graphics designers use it to color-correct their displays so that things look like they would in real life
<yofel> well, that would be progress
<yofel> JontheEchidna: can't you configure that with kgamma?
<apachelogger> no
<yofel> or is colord somewhat automated?
<apachelogger> kgamma corrects gamma :P
<shadeslayer> colord takes info from a actual device I do believe
<apachelogger> also the colord stuff is supposed to make you do it right
<Riddell> kgamma is only monitors
<shadeslayer> that you put on your monitor
<apachelogger> shadeslayer: something like that
<Riddell> colord-kde is for webcams and printers too
<apachelogger> anywho
<yofel> ah ok, colord++ then
<apachelogger> if someone tested it throw it on
<Riddell> #action find knowledgeable testers for colord-kde - riddell
<meetingology> ACTION: find knowledgeable testers for colord-kde - riddell
<shadeslayer> aha
<shadeslayer> found it
<shadeslayer> This guy https://plus.google.com/107928060492923463788
<shadeslayer> it's called a ColorHug
<shadeslayer> and I think we can find this device at UDS for testing
<apachelogger> hug the next item, this meeting is taking forever :P
<Riddell> he wrote colord didn't he?
<Riddell> GTK Configuration
<shadeslayer> aye, he also made the actual device I think
<Riddell> new tool configures both gtk 2 and gtk 3
<Riddell> whereas the old one configured 2 and used the same settings for 3
<Riddell> which was unlikely to work
<shadeslayer> " The ColorHug is an open source display colorimeter. It allows you to calibrate your screen for accurate color matching. "
<Riddell> vis xsettings-kde
<Riddell> via xsettings-kde
<shadeslayer> the question is, how many people are likely to own one of these devices to use with colord-kde
<Quintasan> Riddell: If the new one works then I see no point in wondering.
<shadeslayer> because it seems a bit useless without the device
<Riddell> Quintasan: tried it?
<apachelogger> maybe I am being silly
<apachelogger> but why do we need gtk configuration again?
<Quintasan> Riddell: Can't say I run many GTK applications. Firefox looks good.
<yofel> apachelogger: $people want it, for whatever reason
<apachelogger> ...
<apachelogger> last I checked you could use GTK's GTK configuration tool to configure GTK
<shadeslayer> heh
<apachelogger> just saying
<yofel> are we still shipping xsettings? as this was probably our only reason to have it on the disk
<apachelogger> there is things that make sense and then there is GTK configuration done in Qt using KDE libraries...
<Riddell> yofel: this new tool replaces xsettings-kde
<yofel> good
<yofel> apachelogger: gtk has a configuration tool? I know gnome has one, but that pulls in half of gnome
<apachelogger> yeah
<apachelogger> so?
<apachelogger> :P
<yofel> ...
<apachelogger> try to configuring phonon
<apachelogger> ...
<Quintasan> apachelogger's logic: why use something else when we can pull half of gnome
<Quintasan> :P
<shadeslayer> it only seems logical
<yofel> anyway, I'm pretty much fine with the new KCM. I don't like how it sets gtk3, but that's gtk3's fault so we won't get anything better I believe
<Riddell> it sets it in such a way it doesn't affect gnome/unity sessions
<Riddell> so it shouldn't get in the way of people who like to switch
<apachelogger> +1 then
<apachelogger> also action to investigate just exactly who our target audience is
<yofel> I know it doesn't mess with gnome, my concern were the other DE's
<yofel> apachelogger++
<Riddell> akonadi-facebook?
<Riddell> anyone tried it?
<d__ed> mck182 says yes.
<d__ed> (he's here with me, I'm not psychic)
<Riddell> it works for me, but I don't keep a lot of stuff in my facebook calendar
<d__ed> (edit: not the packages)
<Riddell> but maybe the cool kids get appointments through facebook
<Riddell> ScottK had a concern about privacy
 * shadeslayer is adding his account atm
<JontheEchidna> it's opt-in, isn't it?
<apachelogger> Riddell: how so?
<Riddell> yes it needs to be set up so I don't think it's different from people using it on a web browser
<Quintasan> Can't say it's really needed but is a cool feature.
<apachelogger> I really do not see a privacy issue
<shadeslayer> ^
<Riddell> same for akonadi-google
<apachelogger> no different from importing your google data anyway
<apachelogger> or kolab for that matter :P
<d__ed> (mck182 says that in the very near future the kfacebook and the akonadi plugin are going to split into a separate repo)
<yofel> libkgoogle works fine for me
<d__ed> will this cause a packaging issue?
<apachelogger> nope
<shadeslayer> hm
<Riddell> d__ed: not if packagers get told about it
<shadeslayer> doesn't seem to fetch my calendar events
<shadeslayer> contacts look fine
<apachelogger> does it actually allow adding events?
<shadeslayer> not adding, but I think it allows retrieving right?
<yofel> kontact does annoy me about my google calendar reminders
<apachelogger> oh well
<apachelogger> it's a nice tech demo then
<apachelogger> (not beign able to add things always seems a bit of a deal breaker to me with online thingy integration)
<apachelogger> anyhow +1 for shipping
<d__ed> apparently, I'm going to do the akonadi-facebook library splitting right now...
<Riddell> d__ed: we can avoid that until next release I think
<Riddell> KDE Telepthy
<Riddell> who's tried it?
<d__ed> me!
<Quintasan> \o/
<shadeslayer> moi
<Quintasan> INCLUDE ALL THE THINGS
<Mamarok> me too
<Riddell> I think the question with kde-telepathy is about whether we should have the panel presence applet on by default
<yofel> telepathy works nice here (jabber, ICQ, facebook)
<Quintasan> ^ same here
<apachelogger> Riddell: I do not really think it is an option
<Riddell> ScottK said if it was on by default he'd want the message indicator removed and replaced with the normal systray icon for quassel
<apachelogger> you'd otherwise be online without having visual indication of that
<Quintasan> +1 apachelogger
<apachelogger> Riddell: that'd make sense
<d__ed> I did discuss on the launchpad bug, if it's wanted we can make it autohide if you have no accounts
 * Quintasan always removed Message Indicator
<shadeslayer> I'm not sure if it's worth keepimg mi
<d__ed> (for a 0.5.1)
<Quintasan> d__ed: That would be nice
<d__ed> (still talking about presence applet not MI)
<apachelogger> d__ed: that'd be handy
<JontheEchidna> yeah, +1 on switching to telepathy and ditching MI
<shadeslayer> *keeping
<Riddell> the presence applet doesn't fit in with the other white icons on the panel!
<d__ed> so it would be in the little "up arrow" bit of the system tray if you have none.
<apachelogger> yeah
<shadeslayer> I agree with Riddell on that one
<apachelogger> better than always having it visible IMHO
 * yofel is pretty happy it's not black/white...
<yofel> and isn't it grey when you're offline?
<shadeslayer> yes it is
<apachelogger> grey, not oxygen-opaque-grey
<shadeslayer> but it's not monochromey
<Riddell> who wants the action item to add it?
<d__ed> on the icons:
<apachelogger> Riddell, d__ed: did someone talk with master nuno about the monochromeness?
<shadeslayer> Riddell: moi
<Quintasan> TBH I didn't like the monochrome approach to the icons
<shadeslayer> I think the bug is already assigned to me
<d__ed> (quoting martin) "there was a guy who made some monochrome icons, and we made it load the plasma icons, but they looked really bad"
<Riddell> #action add ktp presence applet, remove message indicator by default - shadeslayer
<meetingology> ACTION: add ktp presence applet, remove message indicator by default - shadeslayer
<d__ed> (actually he didn't say really bad)
<d__ed> can we action someone opening a bug on KTp about making it hide
<apachelogger> shadeslayer
<d__ed> actually, nm. I'll do it
<Riddell> #action open a bug on ktp presence applet to hide if no account - d__ed
<meetingology> ACTION: open a bug on ktp presence applet to hide if no account - d__ed
<shadeslayer> apachelogger:
<Riddell> LightDM-KDE
<Riddell> new bling or untested scaryness?
<Riddell> 14:51 <ScottK> For lightdm, I've also not tested it, but it's not obvious to me it's enough better than kdm yet to merit diverging from upstream.
<Riddell> I think it's worth it for the guest session
<JontheEchidna> I've not had any problems with it, and it looks great
<d__ed> the thread on the Kubuntu forums was very positive
<Riddell> d__ed: oh? I'll have to look that up
<d__ed> (after 0.3.0 anyway)
<yofel> background needs fixing to match kspalsh 4.9 (I forgot to file a bug about that) - otherwise nice
<shadeslayer> Guest sessions are awesome
<apachelogger> yofel: was about to do that when Riddell dragged me in here -.-
<shadeslayer> and I've already filed a bug about wallpapers and light dm
<yofel> ah good :)
<Riddell> yofel: so more solid grey?
<apachelogger> Riddell: same as we have in plymouth
 * Quintasan always wanted to *DM and splash to take users wallpaper
<apachelogger> i.e. the "proper" ariya boot experience as intended by the mighty oxygen overlords
<yofel> as apachelogger said (without stripes)
<Riddell> #action make lightdm background match splash - apachelogger
<meetingology> ACTION: make lightdm background match splash - apachelogger
<d__ed> you canyou can't do that.
<d__ed> *you can't do that.
<d__ed> login manager has more than one user
<Quintasan> d__ed: Unfortunately.
<d__ed> therefore not possible
<d__ed> also, plasma wallpaper is
<d__ed> 1) not always an image
<d__ed> 2) different per screen
<d__ed> 3) different per activity
<Riddell> d__ed: can't so what?
<d__ed> oh
<d__ed> sorry, I've misread two sentences
<d__ed> you can't make the lightdm background match the users
<d__ed> obviously you can make lightdm + ksplash have the same default.
<d__ed> and that'd be awesome
<apachelogger> (technically you can make them match given the constraints are met :P)
<Riddell> and the pre-X splash
<d__ed> do we have a new background?
<d__ed> a special Kubuntu one?
<d__ed> FWIW, LightDM-KDE right now default to whatever the plasma default one is.
<shadeslayer> d__ed: more like, new plymouth screen
<apachelogger> technically you can keep them all synced up as long as there is only one screen and the plasma background is an image ;)
<Riddell> apachelogger gave ksplash and plymouth a grey background without stripes last time
<shadeslayer> s/screen/splash/
<apachelogger> so...
<Riddell> apachelogger: you say that was what oxygen dudes wanted?
<apachelogger> totally worth trying lightdm for this release, it seems table enough
<shadeslayer> I am not particularly fond of the splash(es)
<apachelogger> *stable even
<apachelogger> Riddell: aye
<apachelogger> the stripes were only intended for the desktop
<apachelogger> as otherwise it had missed drama (i.e. it would have been too dull to look at over long period of time)
<Riddell> got to have some drama in free software
<apachelogger> indeed
<d__ed> :) last release some artist made some sexy Kubuntu backgrounds
<d__ed> the blue ones
<d__ed> which I only saw after release.
<Riddell> d__ed: someone within blue systems but I still don't know who
<shadeslayer> ^
<Riddell> mysterious lot them
<shadeslayer> I still have the wallpapers if someone wants them
<d__ed> could we ask to get some for this release?
<Riddell> yeah that would be good
 * shadeslayer would like some nice Kubuntu wallpapers on the ISO
<d__ed> worth asking anyway (IMHO)
<apachelogger> *calligra*
<Riddell> #action find out who made the kubuntu wallpaper on kubuntu.org and ask them to make one for 12.10 - riddell
<meetingology> ACTION: find out who made the kubuntu wallpaper on kubuntu.org and ask them to make one for 12.10 - riddell
<Riddell> Calligra Suite - time to give it a chance or stay with the old?
<Riddell> I'm still all for it, it works pleasingly well and it gives us more apps on the CD like krita
<Riddell> and it fits in with my KDE idealism
<apachelogger> https://plus.google.com/u/0/107577785796696065138/posts/K36rbyfXBSa
<shadeslayer> I've done some documented editing on words, still a bit quirky, but good enough
<d__ed> well, one option is to not go for the whole thing, if CD space is no longer an issue
<apachelogger> just about every opinion I saw while looking for them was like the one in that poll
<d__ed> i.e krita, but not word clone
<apachelogger> most people do not care particularly
<Riddell> <ScottK> I'm still -1 on Calligra by default due to lack of MS Office file format export capability.  Like it or not, that's what people deal in and we should hold our noses  a bit (it's not like LO is great either, but it is more interoperable) and ship LO by default since that will serve more users better.
<yofel> I found words to be a bit weird so I would prefer libreoffice - if you want a serious office solution on the ISO
<Quintasan> +1 on keeping LibreOffice
<yofel> positive was that I at least had 0 crashes with 2.5
<Quintasan> While Calligra is shaping nicely I can't see it being our default office suite yet.
<Riddell> unlike libreoffice, its quality has got worse in recent releases
<apachelogger> I would actually claim that this choice once more depends on the target audience :P
<apachelogger> since we are not quite sure on who that is...
<Quintasan> It works generally but has some quirks and looks unpolished.
<shadeslayer> apachelogger: canonical vs BTS Travels :P
<apachelogger> nay
<apachelogger> well
<apachelogger> yes
<apachelogger> only partially though
<apachelogger> it's also about just how much you use the stuff and what you do with them
<apachelogger> if you write one letter a month then calligra will do the job
<apachelogger> if you have to do serious office work (database driven mass letter production and whatnot) it may not be so suitable
<Riddell> I think calligra would be better for that?  kexi is looking lovely, I've never got libreoffice database thing to work
<apachelogger> (mostly you base that not on teh actual database apps but csv in the spreadsheet app ;))
<apachelogger> at any rate
<apachelogger> from where I am standing calligra has problems scaling up
<apachelogger> so if we want to offer a compelling out of the box office for both home users and businesses
<apachelogger> I do strongy believe libreoffice is the thing to use for the time being
<Riddell> scaling up?
<apachelogger> Riddell: I really do not see myself pulling all the template madness of everyday office live in word
<apachelogger> so it does nto scale up from once-a-month users to daily users
<apachelogger> former it does fine with, latter not so much
<shadeslayer> I would actually like if Calligra just started with a default A4 template
<shadeslayer> and then if you want, you could change templates
<apachelogger> all that being said
<apachelogger> if we want calligra to become a proper replacement at some point
<apachelogger> it may be wise to put it on the image for this release
<apachelogger> and since we have so many new apps on board we could then label this release as a tech evaluation release or something
<apachelogger> giving users a solid base to work on, to try apps that may not yet be perfect but show great potential
<d__ed> I think for every change you should have a release where it's in the repos but not default
<d__ed> (like KTp and Ldm had)
<Riddell> this has been in the repos since ubuntu began
<apachelogger> generally I agree, but there is only so much testing you get out fo simply being in the repos
<apachelogger> to sum up my thoughts: +1 on staying with libreoffice, +1 on using calligra but then the release should not be marketed as the latest and greatest super stable version
<shadeslayer> alright, I need to leave, I'll be continuing from my phone
<Riddell> JontheEchidna: do you have a position as a council member?
<JontheEchidna> I think I'll have to take the more conservative route of keeping libreoffice default for this release
<Riddell> so 1.5 votes for calligra, 2.5 votes for libreoffice
<Riddell> I'll poke jussi and darkwing to get the full vote
<Riddell> #action poke jussi and darking to get a full vote on calligra - riddell
<meetingology> ACTION: poke jussi and darking to get a full vote on calligra - riddell
<Riddell> anything else for 12.10?
<Riddell> UDS sponsorship
<Riddell> apachelogger, JontheEchidna: how do we decide who to sponsor?
<JontheEchidna> that's a good question
<JontheEchidna> I suppose we'd need to know how many people we can sponsor, and then develop some sort of criteria?
<Quintasan> I think it's me, agateau and Alex
<Riddell> well that's a bit unknown unless you want to do lots of time calculating the cost
<Riddell> but we have Â£10000 in the bank so I think it wouldn't be a problem
<Riddell> for those three
<Riddell> (that's to last all year mind, so another UDS too)
<apachelogger> I think we first should set a budget for sponsorship which ought to be a subset of all the money :P
<Riddell> ScottK suggested we nudge them for a concrete contribution to KDE/Kubuntu that would happen because of them coming
<apachelogger> and a plan of what they concretely want to do would be in order
<apachelogger> also a rough estimate for travel + accomodation
<apachelogger> also perhaps we want to talk with the kde e.v. if say agateau or afiestas want to do something very KDE focusy
<Riddell> I'm not sure how concrete it's sensible to be, at least for upstreams like afiestas a lot of the value is in them telling us what's good and what will be good
<apachelogger> so it'd be in the interest of KDE throwing some money at them to make that happen
<Riddell> apachelogger: since we have the money I don't think we should be asking another body for it
<Riddell> and e.v. aren't full of money currently so I doubt they'd be interested
<JontheEchidna> is it known how Canonical decides to sponsor people for UDS?
<JontheEchidna> for a set of criteria to compare to
<apachelogger> JontheEchidna: jono rolls a dice
<Riddell> no idea, always been a black box to me
<JontheEchidna> apachelogger: :P
<shadeslayer> its on jono's blog
<apachelogger> that's how I'd do it :P
<Quintasan> JontheEchidna: cat /dev/random and see whose name has majority of the letters present in the first line of the output :P
<Riddell> oh ScottK was also suggesting it might be polite to do it in private
<JontheEchidna> the actual deciding? I agree
<Quintasan> Ooops.
<apachelogger> Riddell: I am not saying KDE should pay full attendance for someone but if there is a value to KDE I suppose it'd make sense if a "contribution" to the attendance was suggested
<JontheEchidna> jono gives some criteria in this blog post, which it may be useful to consult when creating our own criteria: http://www.jonobacon.org/2012/08/01/ubuntu-developer-summit-sponsorship-now-open-4/
<apachelogger> Riddell: ScottK has a point
<apachelogger> also we still need a budget first :P
<Riddell> apachelogger: like an amount for us to spend?
<JontheEchidna> yes, I think the best way to proceed is to make a (at least rough) budget to see how many people we can sponsor in a year, develop a set of criteria to measure applicants against, and then in private make the actual sponsorship additions
<JontheEchidna> s/additions/decisions
<JontheEchidna> brainfart :P
<Riddell> ok I'll do a rough budget then we can have an e-mail conversation with council members
<Riddell> we should be mindful not to let it drag on, flights get more expensive and people need to make travel plans
<apachelogger> Quintasan, agateau, afiestas: if you have not done so, please make an estimate for your attendance cost (travel + hostel/hotel)
<JontheEchidna> yes, it should definitely be a priority issue for the council
<Quintasan> apachelogger: I asked about that. Can we stay in the same hotel as the event takes place or we need to look for something cheaper?
<apachelogger> something cheaper I'd say :P
<shadeslayer> Quintasan: Bella Sky is *really* expensive
<shadeslayer> 120 EUR a day I think
<Quintasan> shadeslayer, apachelogger: That's why I'm asking :P
 * Quintasan will look into it
<Riddell> #action rough budget for UDS sponsored people and e-mail conversation to decide - riddell
<meetingology> ACTION: rough budget for UDS sponsored people and e-mail conversation to decide - riddell
<Riddell> UDS swag, I'd like to get some nice kubuntu polo shirts for UDS
<Riddell> I think it's worth being visible
<Riddell> ScottK said any active 12.10 contributor should get one posted out
<JontheEchidna> it's worth looking in to
<Riddell> rough cost up to Â£300
<JontheEchidna> did we have a design in mind?
<Riddell> just a logo embroidered on it
<JontheEchidna> +1 from me. All I have is this lousy Ubuntu t-shirt I got at UDS-o :P
 * Quintasan has oneiric tshirt
<Quintasan> the logo is still visible
<Quintasan> :D
<Riddell> apachelogger: got a council vote?
<apachelogger> shadeslayer: actually 133*5=665=~520 gbp
<apachelogger> or 530
<apachelogger> no clue
<apachelogger> Riddell: +1
<Riddell> groovy
<Riddell> #action get kubuntu swag - riddell
<meetingology> ACTION: get kubuntu swag - riddell
<shadeslayer> apachelogger: I thought I mentioned it was 120 EUR a day
<Riddell> please add topics for UDS to http://notes.kde.org/kubuntu-uds
<Riddell> any other business?
<apachelogger> nope
<Riddell> I think we're all businessed out
<apachelogger> shadeslayer: 130 != 120 :P
<afiestas> mm
<afiestas> it is not clear to me, should I look for hotel as well ?
<afiestas> or only flight cost?
<afiestas> then, send it to kubuntu-devel ? council?
<shadeslayer> apachelogger: ofcourse
<apachelogger> shadeslayer, Quintasan: to put the number into context ... most copenhagen hostels are between 20-30, making a total of 120 gbp for a week :)
<Riddell> afiestas: send to council, you already looked at hotels didn't you so maybe send estimates of cheaper and the UDS hotel?
<shadeslayer> most hostels anywhere would cost that
<Quintasan> apachelogger: and the even hotel would be 520gbp?
<Quintasan> wtf
<Riddell> Quintasan: it's a fancy conference hotel near the airport
<shadeslayer> aye
<apachelogger> yeah, actually that is semi-cheap compared to some of the others ^^
<afiestas> Riddell: having another hotel will have extra costs, tarnsport and food (not that I mind to pay that myself, just saying)
<shadeslayer> good thing is that I got sponsored, my flights would have eaten up a lot of the budget
<afiestas> also, maybe we can ask Canonical  for a special offer? I guess they get some because of the event
<shadeslayer> afiestas: 5000 is the special price
<Riddell> maybe the rooms are big enough to sleep four in like in florida, but probably not
<afiestas> shadeslayer: 5K per week?
<afiestas> wtf?
<apachelogger> Riddell: doesn't look like it on the website
<shadeslayer> afiestas: 5 days
<shadeslayer> 5K kronor
<afiestas> 5K of what?
<shadeslayer> a bit more actually
<apachelogger> afiestas: ~660 EUR for 5 days assuming a shared room
<apachelogger> I think like 100 more for a single
<afiestas> I'm not going to be able to organize hotel myself I'm afraid, at least not this week
<apachelogger> assuming you all three would go into a hostel at 120eur for 5 days
<afiestas> since the hotel is near the airport, I will have to look fro transportaion and food, adn this week (that is left of it) is quite busy
<JontheEchidna> I must be off, but I think we've covered all council business. ttyl
<jussi> I guess Ive some reading back to do. what about calligra?
<Riddell> jussi: needs your vote
<jussi> sorry I missed so much
<jussi> let me catch up
<apachelogger> compared to all three staying in the hotel that gives 1.2k to spend on transporation and food :P
<afiestas> apachelogger: there is the "confortable" factor
<afiestas> if I ahve to take a 2h train twice everyday I won't go
<Riddell> â¬330 a person would be within our budget
<jussi> I am with ScottK for exactly the same reason. (re: calligra)
<apachelogger> afiestas: I should hope that is not the case :P
<afiestas> btw
<afiestas> this year isn't 3 nights only?
<afiestas> from 29 to 1?
<afiestas> or I'm remembering it wrong?
<apachelogger> ah, there was something, right
<apachelogger> though I think it was 4 nights
<Riddell> 4 days, 5 nights (unless you leave quick)
<apachelogger> right
<Riddell> I'm going out and returning on the saturdays
<afiestas> so, from 28oct to nov2?
<Riddell> yes
<shadeslayer> I am arriving on the 27th evening, leaving 2nd morning
<apachelogger> anywho, so since we do not have a steady income stuffing everyone into the fancy hotel for 130 a night on account of it being more comfortable seems ill-advised, which I hope is understandable
<jussi> apachelogger: ++
<Riddell> apachelogger: we have a budget, it is there to be spent
<afiestas> cheapest thing for individual I found in booking is 268, looking for the individual because of my snoring
<afiestas> I don't mind sleeping with ppl, they midn sleeping in the room I'm xD
<afiestas> next hotel is 413â¬
<afiestas> oh, there is one 346
<Riddell> ear plugs would be cheaper
<Riddell> anyway, to be discussed by e-mail
<apachelogger> ^^
<Riddell> I need to tend to my canoeists
 * apachelogger leaves to break kmix then
<Riddell> thanks for coming all
<Riddell> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Sep 13 19:55:52 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-13-18.17.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-13-18.17.html
 * d__ed yawns.
<shadeslayer> night
<valorie> damn, missed it
<valorie> should have put it in my phone
#ubuntu-meeting 2012-09-14
<highvoltage> u/win 12
<bootlkhlll> mornin'
<smartboyhw> Quantal meeting coming right?
<skaet> yup
<skaet> just waiting for top of the hour to start it.
<ogra_> start 1
<ogra_> !
<ogra_> :)
<skaet> :)
 * ogra_ is sitting on the autobahn, half way to berlin
<mdeslaur> \o
<skaet> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Fri Sep 14 15:00:05 2012 UTC.  The chair is skaet. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<smartboyhw> \o
<didrocks> \o
<skaet> Weekly Release Agenda (and minute location):
<skaet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2012-09-14
<skaet> .
<skaet> Upcoming dates:
<skaet> 12.10
<skaet>     2012/09/20: 12.10 Beta 2 Freeze,  DocString Freeze at 2100 UTC
<arosales> \o hello
<skaet>     2012/09/27: 12.10 Beta 2
<skaet>     2012/10/04: Kernel Freeze and Desktop Infrastructure Freeze at 2100 UTC
<skaet>     2012/10/09: Translation Deadline at 1030 UTC and Final Freeze at 2100 UTC
<skaet> .
<skaet> Bugs:
<skaet> Development teams are trying to fix: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-tracking-bug-tasks.html
<skaet> To be considered for fixing: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<brendand> \o
<skaet> .
<skaet> Work Items:
<skaet> 2012/09/14 -  2996 (was 3025  - 2012/08/31):   Thank you for the recent push to clean up the feature status.  :)
<skaet> We are still behind the trendline for some of the projects.  Please help get us back where we should be by making sure https://launchpad.net/~/+upcomingwork is up to date for your tasks. If something is clearly not going to make it this cycle, please mark it POSTPONED.
<skaet> .
<skaet> Weekly Status Received:
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001926.html - QA - gema
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001927.html - desktop - didrocks
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001928.html - security - mdeslaur
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001929.html - HWCert - brendand
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001930.html - kernel - ogasawara
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001931.html - ubuntu one - joshuahoover
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001932.html - community - balloons
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001933.html - server - arosales
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001934.html - linaro - fabo
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001935.html - Unity - popey
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001936.html - foundations - ogra_
<skaet> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2012-September/001938.html - kubuntu - RIddell
<skaet> ?? - edubuntu - stgraber
<skaet> ?? - xubuntu - knome
<skaet> ?? - Ubuntu Studio - ScottL
<skaet> ?? - Lubuntu - gilir
<skaet> #topic Comments and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Comments and Questions
<Riddell> hi
<skaet> hello arosales, brendand, didrocks, ogra_, smartboyhw  - who else is around?
<gema> o/
<skaet> hiya Riddell, gema
<stgraber> skaet: nothing exciting happened for Edubuntu since beta-1.
<smartboyhw> scott-work is missing completely...
<skaet> stgraber, ack.
<skaet> anyone have any burning questions to raise before I start into my set?
<skaet> (if so,   'o/' to let us know)
<skaet> To make sure weâre all as efficient as possible in this critical bug fixing/polishing up time,  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-incoming-bug-tasks.html
<skaet> should be kept as close to 0 as possible.   Teams with more than 5 in their queue right now are:
<skaet> desktop: 16
<skaet> dx (product strategy): 8
<skaet> foundations: 11
<skaet> didrocks, popey, ogra_ - can you work with your teams to get these sorted by monday?
<ogra_> sure :)
<didrocks> skaet: sure, I already taken down the number, but will continue
 * jbicha waves
<popey> yup
<skaet> thanks ogra_ ,  didrocks,  popey.   :)   appreciate the efforts so far.
<skaet> gema,  I was working through: http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/qa/qa-open-bugs-quantal.html,  and finding some bugs without rls-q-incoming tag or being targetted to a series.   Could you do a pass through the bugs to make sure that the tag is present, on all those that are NOT already targetted to a series, so they get into the development teamâs triaging flow?
<gema> skaet: sure, I can do that on Monday european morning
<skaet> thanks gema.  :)
<skaet> didrocks, not spotting bug: 927168, bug: 1047306 or bug: 966744 on your working on list, and theyâre indicated as critical in  http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-q-tracking-bug-tasks.html,   can you look into them?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 927168 in Compiz "compiz crashed with SIGSEGV in memmove() from drisw_update_tex_buffer() from dri_set_tex_buffer2() from drisw_bind_tex_image() from __glXBindTexImageEXT() from TfpTexture::enable() from enableFragmentOperationsAndDrawGeometry()" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/927168
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 966744 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (Ubuntu Quantal) "[i965] Resume from suspend leaves me with black screen or a screen of the desktop before it suspended. Compiz hung in intel_update_renderbuffers() from intel_prepare_render() from brw_draw_prims()" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/966744
<didrocks> skaet: yeah, it's a bug between PS and us, people are already working on it, but not trivial
<skaet> popey,  ^  can you help from your side too on those?
<popey> sure, but I think our "best minds" are on it
<didrocks> skaet: bug #1047306 isn't relevant right now, as I reverted mesa because of it last week (so not impacting us, just in case if we reupload mesa without doing anything)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1047306 in mesa (Ubuntu Quantal) "[Quantal] [Intel Atom] Mesa 2012/09/07 updates broke it all" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1047306
<didrocks> skaet: not sure how it should be marked then?
<skaet> didrocks,  if its not relevant,  probably marking it INVALID for the moment,  but keeping note of it in case it shows up again later?
<didrocks> skaet: yeah, or I will change the bug title for now, tjaalton is working on it to reupload the new mesa without the regression
<jibel> skaet, it's not invalid because it is a real bug that have been reverted and being worked on
<skaet> popey,  just wasn't seeing them listed in the working on lists,  so wanted to make sure they actually were being "worked on"  :)
<popey> sure, will make sure they are
<skaet> jibel,   what do you recommend then?
 * didrocks adds "[Mesa reverted, not impacting quantal right now]" in front of the bug title
<jibel> in progress seems right to me
 * skaet likes that.  Thanks didrocks.
<didrocks> yw :)
<skaet> ok jibel,  looks like we've got a way to denote it for now then.    probably need to ponder conventions on how to denote bugs of things not in the current archive at some point.
<skaet> bug in upstream, but not in the ubuntu portion.
<skaet> ..
<skaet> didrocks,  any concerns about the timing of the landing of ubuntu oneâs FFe (bug: 1042343)?
<skaet> bug: 1042343
 * skaet wonders what happened to ubottu
<didrocks> skaet: depends if it lands next week or not. I'll get ken checking on the status again
<popey> Launchpad bug 1042343 in Ubuntu One Client "[FFE] Ubuntu One integration with Q sync indicator" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1042343
<ubottu> Error: Could not gather data from Launchpad for bug #1042343 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/1042343). The error has been logged
<popey> pfft
<didrocks> thanks popeybuttu :)
<popey>  /nick popeybot
<ogra_> heh
<skaet> thanks didrocks,  popeybot  :)
<skaet> ..
<skaet> mdelaur,  re: FF16 landing on Final Freeze date,  if it can be reviewed and included before 2100 that would be best.  Is this possible?
<skaet> hmm... not seeing him for now,  moving on to next question
<skaet> popey, are the unity development teams keeping the Features separated from the bug fixes until after the FFEâs are approved?
<skaet> mdeslaur, ^  sorry,  typo in your nick.   see question re: FF16
<mdeslaur> one sec
<mdeslaur> skaet: ah, I'll see with micahg if that's possible
<skaet> thanks mdeslaur.
<mdeslaur> if not, no biggie, we can just do a day 0 security update
<skaet> ok.
<skaet> ..
 * skaet wondering if popey is still around?
<skaet> moving on for now then.
<skaet> rosales, spotted a FTBFS thatâs been lurking for a bit,  updated its milestone https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/genshi/+bug/935516 - will this get fixed before beta 2?
<popey> sorry, someone just arrived at my house
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 935516 in genshi (Ubuntu Quantal) "genshi version 0.6-2 FTBFS on i386 in precise" [High,Triaged]
 * skaet having serious trouble with nick's today.
<skaet> arosales, ^
<arosales> skaet: I'll take a look.
<skaet> thanks arosales.
<skaet> :)
<arosales> should be able to get resolved before beta2 :-)
<skaet> ..
<arosales> ..
<skaet> popey,  do you know if we'll have the ability to revert FFe's if they cause problems or not?  (ie. mixing in features with bug fixes, could make it *interesting* :P )
<popey> hmm
<popey> not something I'd considered, I'll have to admit, and we'll have to figure a plan for that if it happens
<popey> the plan being, not to mix in the first place I imagine ;)
<popey> ..
<didrocks> yeah, but that's not really the case unfortunately :/
<popey> ok
<didrocks> skaet: https://docs.google.com/a/canonical.com/document/d/1kiVPg0U7VJpHt21y-Qm9VtnLxsTmKHfBmA2B16yLGzc/edit# if you want to have the trunk status of FF violation
<didrocks> (and most of fixes are melt with features)
<didrocks> PS do now have a separate unity and nux trunks
<didrocks> but that's only from yesterday, so the melting is already quite large in trunk "quantal"
<didrocks> and that doesn't cover all the rest of the stack
<didrocks> (lenses in particular and libunity for now)
<didrocks> ..
<skaet> didrocks,  thanks for that summary,  not sure its going to make me sleep much better at night though.
<skaet> popey,  who should we meet with to see if we can get some risk mitigation going>
<skaet> ?
<popey> olli/pat i think
<skaet> popey,  ok,  you want to set something up, or me to?
<popey> I can, after the meeting, I'll grab you
<skaet> thanks :)
 * skaet looks around for any one else having questions on the other teams status'
<skaet> balloons,  for the new test cases,  can I assume that the development teams have reviewed and signed off on the new ones added?
<smartboyhw> skaet: Isn't balloons not coming to the meeting?
<smartboyhw> That's what he said in the weekly status report
<skaet> thanks smartboyhw,  missed that.
<smartboyhw> NP:)
<skaet> ScottK, Riddell - can you provide a bit more background on taglib FFE - bug #?
<Riddell> amarok requested it
<Riddell> some bug fixes and new formats supported
<Riddell> needs testing
<Riddell> bug 1050463
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1050463 in taglib (Ubuntu Quantal) "FFe update to 1.8" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1050463
<Riddell> so if you use any out of `apt-cache rdepends libtag1c2a` then please test it
<skaet> when do you think it will be ready to land?   (enough testing to be sure?)
<Riddell> it's ready, it's in my ~jr PPA
<Riddell> just needs testing to get the FFe approved
<Riddell> it works find for me in amarok
<Riddell> xnox was testing the russian version but I've not heard back
<Riddell> there's two builds of taglib which is pretty inelegant
<xnox> well.... i have them installed, but didn't test yet =)
<marek_> hi all, im newbie ;)
<marek_> and sorry for my bad enlish
<skaet> thanks for the background,  Riddell
<skaet> ..
<marek_> i ve got lenovo z580, i want to configure my touchpad, i use this script: http://www.mepis.org/docs/en/index.php?title=Configuring_the_touchpad_with_xinput
<marek_> but now right touchpad button works like left
<marek_> do You know how i can repair it? ;)
<jbicha> o/
<jbicha> or I could just discuss on #ubuntu-release if this meeting's over
<skaet> marek_,   best place for those sort of questions is in #ubuntu,   could you please ask there?
<skaet> go ahead jbicha,   I've gotten most of my questions asked.
<marek_> ok thanks
<skaet> (well almost ;) )
<jbicha> I've seen a bunch of UIFE's in the past couple of days, but with docs freeze very soon, there's not much time to get those done
<ogra_> marek_, wrong channel, there is a meeting in progress here, try #ubuntu
<ogra_> (oh, skaet was faste)
<jbicha> let me know if there's UIFEs that haven't been looked at yet
<ogra_> r
<jbicha> are the approved Unity UIFE's in the unity-staging PPA? because I can use that for screenshots
<didrocks> jbicha: I know there are some PS side, unfortunately the design is not finished yet and still tweaking (they are on a sprint)
<skaet> jbicha,  ok,  I'm building up a list as I encounter them.   Will share it with you, and you can see if I've missed some you're aware of too.
<didrocks> jbicha: and not everything is yet merged, but I would let popey answering more
<jbicha> didrocks: they should do their sprint before UIFe if it involves UI tweaks ;)
<didrocks> jbicha: I more than agreeâ¦
<skaet> +1 from me as well!
<didrocks> jbicha: most of the changes are in the preview space, so you can mostly do the rest safely I think
<didrocks> jbicha: the other tweaks are shadow which doesn't really worth if it changes and the doc screenshot is not up to date
<didrocks> (this is from what I know)
<skaet> ..?
<popey> jbicha, if you need assistance getting screenshots from latest features, let me know if I can help..
<jbicha> ok, we probably won't even discuss the previews feature this cycle
<popey> ..
<didrocks> skaet: sorry, not used to .. ;) yeah ..
<skaet> thanks popey, jbicha, didrocks.  :)
<jbicha> popey: ok, I wrote a script last cycle to semi-automate the screenshots so updating them is a bit easier than it used to be
<jbicha> thanks
<gema> o/ (different topic)
<jbicha> ..
<skaet> popey, ogra_, didrocks, arosales - could I ask you to take a careful review through gema's QA status after meeting and decide what to do with the obsolete configs that seem to be lurking?
<skaet> gema, ^ was that it?   or something different
<ogra_> not right after meeting, but yeah, tonight i can
<gema> skaet: different
<skaet> thanks ogra_
<didrocks> will have a look as well (not after meeting, but for monday)
<skaet> ..
<arosales> skaet: will take a look and discuss with the team.
<skaet> ok gema,  go ahead.
<gema> skaet: I just wanted to let everyone know that from next week onwards, plars will be attending this meeting
<gema> he is taking over old jibel's responsibilities
<plars> well I'm here today too... so this week onward I suppose :)
<skaet> thanks gema.   welcome plars.  :)
<plars> thanks!
<gema> yep, I may be sitting on the background but will keep quiet from now on :D
<gema> ..
<skaet> :)
<ogra_> plars, ! good to have you back !
<ogra_> :)
 * skaet looks if anyone else has comments/questions before EOM?
<didrocks> o/
<didrocks> just a small warning: next week, GNOME 3.5.92 release (RC)
<didrocks> should be a minor 3.5.91 -> 3.5.92 update and be on time for beta2 freeze
<didrocks> ..
<skaet> thanks didrocks.
<skaet> ok,  feeling like EOM time...
<skaet> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Fri Sep 14 15:54:55 2012 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-14-15.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2012/ubuntu-meeting.2012-09-14-15.00.html
<stgraber> thanks!
<ogra_> thanks
<mdeslaur> thanks skaet!
<popey> thanks
<arosales> thanks skaet for chair'ing
<didrocks> thanks
<skaet> Thanks popey, arosales, didrocks, gema, plars, jbicha, jibel, ogra_, Riddell, mdeslaur, brendand - have a good weekend!
<gema> you too, thanks for chairing :D
<didrocks> thanks skaet :)
<skaet> thanks stgraber (belated ;) )
<highvoltage> thanks everyone
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-09-09
<mdeslaur> \o
<jdstrand> hi!
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep  9 16:46:46 2013 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm in the happy place this week
<jdstrand> I need to go through bps, postpone some stuff, plan for september and tentative for 14.04, then get that info out to people
<jdstrand> I also have some work items-- mostly around testing various apis and getting the policy groups in order
<jdstrand> and pending updates
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're next
<mdeslaur> I'm on triage this week
<mdeslaur> and friday, I have patch piloting duties
<mdeslaur> this week I plan on working down the CVE list, it's been growing
<mdeslaur> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> sbeattie: you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on apparmor again this week
<sbeattie> I'm again helping out jj with testing stuff, focusing on ipc
<sbeattie> which is pretty much it for me
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm fixing a couple remaining bugs in the C++ apparmor parser patch set
<tyhicks> then I'll send those out to the list
<tyhicks> I need to put together a pull request for a couple minor eCryptfs kernel fixes while the merge window is still open
<tyhicks> then I expect to be doing some work related to trusted helpers
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> sarnold: you're up
<sarnold> I'm on community this week; I'm working on MIR audits this week, ust, mir, unity-system-compositor, msgpack-python, gunicorn, and open-vm-tools. I suspect I'll finish four of them this week...
<sarnold> jdstrand: back to you
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gnome-shell.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libextlib-ruby.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xnbd.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/salt.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libspoon-perl.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<jdstrand> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep  9 17:04:35 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-09-09-16.46.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-09-09-16.46.html
<jdstrand> mdeslaur, sbeattie, tyhicks,sarnold : thanks!
<sarnold> thanks jdstrand :)
<sbeattie> jdstrand: thanks!
<tyhicks> thanks
<tumbleweed> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, barry, tumbleweed, stgraber: DMB ping
 * stgraber waves
 * barry waves
<ScottK> \o
<tumbleweed> #startmeeting Developer Membership Board
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep  9 19:03:48 2013 UTC.  The chair is tumbleweed. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic:
<tumbleweed> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperMembershipBoard/Agenda
<tumbleweed> #topic review previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: review previous action items
<tumbleweed> I see nothing in the agenda
<micahg-work> \o/
<tumbleweed> anyone recall anything?
<tumbleweed> I guess we move on
<happyaron> my application?
<tumbleweed> #topic Core-Dev applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: Core-Dev applications
<tumbleweed> #subtopic happyaron's core-dev application
<tumbleweed> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AronXu/DeveloperApplication
<tumbleweed> happyaron: care to introduce it?
<happyaron> well, last month I joined Canonical's Desktop Team, so that my work focus has moved from only input method related packages to more about the desktop... So I think the best idea is to apply for core-dev role.
<micahg-work> happyaron, what was your thinking behind that?
<happyaron> I have PPU for input-method packages earlier this year.
<happyaron> micahg-work: it's actually more related to my current work, which is a quite long term project (ubuntukylin) which needs updating their packages from time to time.
<micahg-work> happyaron, were you aware there was a desktop packageset that can be applied for separately?
<happyaron> I think from technical and procedure perspective I'm qualified for core-dev, and now I have to pinging around for uploading them.
<ScottK> Ubuntu Kylin has it's own package set as well.
<micahg-work> (and we can make an upload team for that as soon as someone is ready to apply for that)
<happyaron> micahg-work: yes I know, I have looked at it and think it's still quite limited, at least most of my current focus isn't Ubuntu's desktop package set, but really not limited to ubuntukylin's one
<ScottK> What recent uploads do you have that reflect your focus?
<happyaron> youker-assistant, ubuntukylin-wallpapers, and there is some changes to fcitx pending upload.
<micahg-work> the first two should be in the Kylin packageset
<micahg-work> fcitx you already have upload rights for through the input methods packageset
<happyaron> there are also changes to fonts planned for next cycle. It isn't so obvious because the project is still in an early stage.
<happyaron> yes.
<happyaron> I know that you are very cautious on granting core-dev upload rights, but I do think ubuntukylin for me is a long term project to enhance Chinese support in Ubuntu in certain sense, and packageset will not be able to fullfill the requirement.
<barry> happyaron: why not?  what's missing?
<happyaron> barry: it's not simply a project make a few new packages, but involves dealing with a more wide range of stuff. For example, we don't want to keep fonts in ubuntukylin's packageset, right?
<micahg-work> if they're Kylin specific, why not?
<micahg-work> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/packagesets/saucy/ubuntukylin
<micahg-work> seems incomplete
<happyaron> but why fonts becomes kylin specific? there are only a small number of available fonts for use and they are meant for all Chinese users.
<ScottK> Packagesets are inclusive, not exclusive.
<micahg-work> ooh, there is a team
<ScottK> If it's in the packageset, people can get upload rights they wouldn't have, but it doesn't prevent others from uploading too.
<ScottK> So there's no downside.
<stgraber> micahg-work: I just added youker-assistant and ubuntukylin-wallpapers to the kylin packageset now
<micahg-work> stgraber, thanks
<stgraber> micahg-work: that packageset isn't seed based like the others as they don't have a seed, it needs me to manually update it whenever something new gets in the image (and nobody nagged me about it apparently ;))
 * micahg-work wonders why Kylin doesn't have a seed
<ScottK> happyaron: It seems like you're immediate work is mostly on UbuntuKylin as are your recent contributions.
<ScottK> micahg-work: I think it's on someone's TODO list.
<happyaron> micahg-work: it was a baby project, and yes it's on TODO
<micahg-work> ok
<happyaron> ScottK: I joined last month, and it's my first task to work on
<ScottK> Right.  Normally we grant rights based on demonstrated past performance, not anticipated future needs.
<ScottK> happyaron: What can you tell me about where we are in the release schedule now and what that means for what you can upload?
<happyaron> ScottK: just past Beta1, in FF
<happyaron> means only bug fixes can be uploaded, but new features must get approved before introducing
<happyaron> i.e. new packages, new features, etc.
<ScottK> If you change a package to generate a new binary that has to go through New, does that need an FFe?
<happyaron> ScottK: I think yes.
<happyaron> stuff uploaded before FF can go without FFe, even it is trapped in NEW for days that missed the freeze date.
<ScottK> happyaron: That's correct.
<tumbleweed> ok, it looks live we have no more questions, let's take this to a vote
<tumbleweed> I think we'll take a vote on the core-dev application, and if it fails, vote on granting you membership of ubuntukylin-dev
<tumbleweed> happyaron: does that work for you?
<happyaron> yes
<tumbleweed> #voters bdrung ScottK Laney micahg barry tumbleweed stgraber
<meetingology> Current voters: Laney ScottK barry bdrung micahg stgraber tumbleweed
<tumbleweed> #vote grant happyaron core-dev rights
<meetingology> Please vote on: grant happyaron core-dev rights
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<stgraber> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from stgraber
<ScottK> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from ScottK
<tumbleweed> #voters bdrung ScottK Laney micahg barry tumbleweed stgraber micahg-work
<meetingology> Current voters: Laney ScottK barry bdrung micahg micahg-work stgraber tumbleweed
<micahg-work> -1 lack of archive wide experience
<meetingology> -1 lack of archive wide experience received from micahg-work
<ScottK> Not enough recent history of broad contribution.  Be glad to see you back after that changes.
<barry> -1 ubuntukylin-dev membership is more appropriate at this time
<meetingology> -1 ubuntukylin-dev membership is more appropriate at this time received from barry
<happyaron> ok
<micahg-work> I concur with ScottK as well
<tumbleweed> +0 [ a DD, yes, but not enough broad experience in Ubuntu, or core-dev endorsement ]
<meetingology> +0 [ a DD, yes, but not enough broad experience in Ubuntu, or core-dev endorsement ] received from tumbleweed
<barry> -1
<meetingology> -1 received from barry
<tumbleweed> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: grant happyaron core-dev rights
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:3 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion denied
<tumbleweed> ok, that wasn't carried, let's go for ubuntukylin-dev
<tumbleweed> #vote should happyaron be granted membership of ubuntukylin-dev?
<meetingology> Please vote on: should happyaron be granted membership of ubuntukylin-dev?
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (private votes don't work yet, but when they do it will be by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to me)
<tumbleweed> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from tumbleweed
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<barry> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from barry
<micahg-work> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg-work
<ScottK> +1+1
<meetingology> +1+1 received from ScottK
<tumbleweed> heh
<tumbleweed> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: should happyaron be granted membership of ubuntukylin-dev?
<meetingology> Votes for:5 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<tumbleweed> happyaron: congratulations, I hope that gives you what you need
<happyaron> thank you
<tumbleweed> and with luck, we'll see you back for core-dev in the future
<happyaron> tumbleweed: will come back when I got more archive wide activity, :)
<barry> happyaron: we look forward to it!
<happyaron> :-)
<ScottK> There's also ubuntu-desktop too.
<micahg-work> and MOTU
<tumbleweed> #topic any other business?
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Developer Membership Board Meeting | Current topic: any other business?
<tumbleweed> I guess not
<tumbleweed> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep  9 19:42:03 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-09-09-19.03.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-09-09-19.03.html
 * tumbleweed loves short meetings
<tumbleweed> thanks everyone
<barry> thanks tumbleweed
<stgraber> thanks!
<tumbleweed> happyaron: LP membership granted
<happyaron> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-09-10
<lool> heyo
 * stgraber waves
<lool> stgraber, barry, ogra_: Around?
 * barry waves
 * ogra_ moos
<lool> so let's perhaps start with a quick status?
<lool> good news is that the system-images are now formally official  :-)
<barry> \o/
<lool> and the recommended images, except if you run into SDK bugs
<lool> stgraber blogged this, mailed ubuntu-phone and this got decently G+-ed, so I think the news is out
<lool> I had some back and forth with community team to try to get the words passed to larger circles, but I guess we're covered for now
<lool> stgraber: you want to update us on the channel aliases work and importer work you have been doing?
<stgraber> sure
<stgraber> so over the past couple of work days I've implemented the new channels.json format to allow the flexiblity needed for channel aliases and hidden channels
<stgraber> barry implemented the client side of that in 1.5 which landed on Friday
<stgraber> (I still need to update the wiki, will do that today)
<stgraber> then after that, I've been working on adding the code needed for the channel aliasing
<barry> (technically sunday with 1.5.1 which fixed a test failure on 32 bit ;)
<stgraber> I finished that yesterday with all the tests passing and 100% code coverage
<stgraber> next up is moving the existing cleanup script to the python module and have tests for that
<stgraber> and once I'm done with that, implement the new channel management tool (not so much a cdimage importer anymore)
<stgraber> that last one will probably take me at least a couple of days because of how complex it can get and how long test runs take
<lool> ok; thanks
<stgraber> but I'm hopeful that we'll be able to transition to it by end of week (that's assuming we can get an image with 1.5.1 promoted today, otherwise we'll need to wait a bit longer for people to get the new client)
<lool> barry: so you've worked on client updates; what are the latest news?
<barry> the new version numbering support landed.  re-started work on d/l service integration, but that was put on hold to get the new channels.json format supported.  both of those features have landed.  i'll be getting back to d/l service integration today
<barry> eot
<lool> cool
<lool> looking at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-1308-os-updates
<lool> repartitioning is still WIP/future
<lool> the rest should be targeted at 13.10, channel aliases, upgrade boot scripts, download service
<lool> switching to android.deb to get android bits
<lool> there are a couple of issues with the current images
<lool> we fixed some over Friday / the week end
<lool> but there might be more
<lool> there are two bad cases of people currently disable system-image that we need to help resolve
<lool> one is QA tests that are currently switching to rw to run the tests
<lool> the other is SDK team (apt-get install openssh and qdeclarative packages and g++)
<ogra_> FYI, here at the QA sprint people are working on fixing the fact that we dont actually do ro testing
<lool> ogra_: cool
<ogra_> i hope that is fixed by end of the week
<lool> stgraber: I guess you might get queries from QA team / SDK team as they discover things in the image that ought to be rw
<ogra_> right
<ogra_> thats also one big topic here this week
<ogra_> inpescting the image and finding all missing rw dirs
<lool> I know there is sadly noone with time to work on fixing the SDK use cases right now
<ogra_> *inspecting
<lool> higher priority projects underway
<lool> ogra_: ok
<ogra_> lool, my task for today is getting sshd to work for the SDK
<stgraber> lool: yep, that's fine, updating lxc-android-config is pretty quick so long as it's either a single file that usually doesn't change outside of user's control or an empty directory.
<lool> ogra_: if folks there don't know how to fix it, let stgraber or me know
<ogra_> that should get us a step forward
<ogra_> yeah
<lool> ogra_: cool
<stgraber> if it's something else, it usually requires some more thinking (which is why I like being the gate keeper for that :))
<lool> ogra_: so you will likely need a new rw path
<lool> ogra_: I'm expecting we will ship a openssh-server.override upstart job which disables it on startup and some sudo script will reenable it if people enable developer mode
<lool> ogra_: you'll need this openssh-server.override file to be rw
<stgraber> ogra_: my guess for sshd is that we want it installed by default, with a .override saying manual and the override file and all the host keys marked writable with migration enabled
<ogra_> well, lets see :)
<lool> stgraber: migration?
<ogra_> i dont really want us to re-write conffiles
<lool> ogra_: wouldn't be a conffile?
<ogra_> its in /etc/init/
<lool> yes?
<ogra_> i'll rather make it read some variable from somewhere else in the override job
<lool> ogra_: I think this is similar to e.g. changing your timezone
<stgraber> sure, that works too
<barry> i guess we can't just make sshd start on boot for everyone eh? ;)
<lool> I think this is too slow
<lool> notably key generation on first start
<lool> /!\ make sure we don't ship the same host keys to everyone   :-)
<stgraber> the trick will be to get ssh to agree to generate new keys to empty files instead of missing fils
<stgraber> *files
<ogra_> lool, indeed
<stgraber> because we can't mark all of /etc/ssh writable due to the other config files in there, so we need to mark the individual key files as writable
<lool> right; not easy to trick sshd in installing the keys properly once generated
<lool> (similar to sed -i issue in qa-regression-testing)
<lool> ok
<lool> ogra_: did you have updates on images that you wanted to share?
<lool> otherwise, I am happy to open the floor to AOB
<ogra_> lool, nothing special, nope
<ogra_> (apart from the ro tests and ssh)
<lool> were there specific things that you folks want to discuss today outside of things we covered above?
<lool> I'd like to make this meeting biweekly
<stgraber> I think we'll need the rootfs build to create empty key files in /etc/ssh/, then have code doing the ssh-keygen to the writable target (/userdata/system-data/etc/ssh/) on the device after removing the empty files in there. Once done, reboot and it should be all good.
<lool> stgraber: sounds good
<barry> biweekly sounds good
<stgraber> ogra_: anyway, let me know what you come up with so I can quickly confirm there shouldn't be problems with that in the future
<stgraber> I'm fine with biweekly too
<stgraber> I won't be there next week anyway (Plumbers)
<lool> ogra_: I'd like us to get updates on the QA efforts in some way; what's the best way?
<lool> would folks at the sprint grab us on #ubuntu-touch?>
<lool> there was a weekly hangout, but it got cancelled
<ogra_> well, i'm mainly sitting with my team in a separate room, i guess asac participates a lot more in the cross team meetings
<lool> ogra_: who should we ask?  paul larson and doanac?
<lool> I guess we can ping them in a couple of days
<lool> if we dont hear any queries  :-)
<lool> ok; I guess that's it for today then!
<lool> have a good end of day everyone
 * lool waves
<ogra_> you too :)
<barry> cheers!
<ogra_> lool, heh ... i just noticed your claendar invitation says "Bieekly upgrader ...."
<lool> ogra_: fixed thanks
<smoser> roaksoax, ping
<hallyn_> i think arosales will be stepping up today
<arosales> roaksoax, isn't able to chair this seek
<arosales> sorry smoser ^
<arosales> hallyn_, were you interested in chairing
<smoser> i can do it.
<smoser> #startmeeting
<hallyn_> arosales: i just did last week :)  don't have stuff ready, but can in 2 mins if it's not convenient for you
<hallyn_> k
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<arosales> I can cover
<hallyn_> hm?  not working?
<arosales> or it looks like smoser
<smoser> well, no bot i think
<smoser> meetingology seems gone.
<arosales> smoser, should we just proceed with out it?
<smoser> give 3 minutes.
<smoser> 12:10. then go on without.
<smoser> trying to find it.
<smoser> k.
<smoser> 12:10. i'll start
<smoser> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<smoser> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<smoser>  * everyone spend extra time triaging bugs this week
<smoser> i think i saw hallyn do that, but i'm not sure of anyone else, and I know i was delinquent.
<hallyn_> wellt he list is still long enough that we could use another week of it
<smoser> reguarding Meetingology, i pinged AlanBell just now as the contact per
<hallyn_> i may dedicate tomorrow to it
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Bots
<smoser> ok. so we'll push that again.
<smoser> #action  everyone spend extra time triaging bugs this week
<smoser> topic Saucy Development
<smoser> #topic Saucy Development
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule
<smoser> We just passed Beta 1.  So we're moving towards a release some time.
<smoser> utlemming cut beta-1 cloud images for us.  and we have daily images of those of course.
<smoser> #topic ReleaseBugs
<smoser> bug 1221906 seems like adam_g is on it.
<ubottu> bug 1221906 in horizon (Ubuntu Saucy) "Havana-3 Dependency missing: python-troveclient" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1221906
<smoser> bug 1208455.
<ubottu> bug 1208455 in linux (Ubuntu Saucy) "general protection fault running apt-get inside double nested kvm VM" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1208455
<smoser> smb did you make any progress there ?
<smb> A bit
<AlanBell> hi smoser
<smb> Got a rough bisection done. Which leads to some rework of nested VMX code
<smoser> hey, AlanBell . we're missing your bot. :)
<smb> But I think I need some upstream help to dig deeper
<smoser> smb, ok. thanks.
<smoser> bug 1213915
<ubottu> bug 1213915 in ceph (Ubuntu Saucy) "Please demote ceph-mds and ceph-fs-common to universe" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1213915
<smoser> hm.. i'll leave that on jamespage. to push on a archive admin.
<smoser> bug 1206872
<ubottu> bug 1206872 in samba (Ubuntu Saucy) "samba fails to unpack (behavior change in patch) and ftbfs on aarch64" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1206872
<smoser> that looks like incomplete at the moment... that should probably get off this list.
<smoser> bug 1156932
<ubottu> bug 1156932 in python-novaclient (Ubuntu Saucy) "User can't modify security-group-rule via nova-api if there are duplicated security group name" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1156932
<smoser> hm.. that seems languishing. wonder if still relevant.
<smoser> bug 1199791
<ubottu> bug 1199791 in nova (Ubuntu Saucy) "nova-compute-xcp misses nova-compute.conf" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1199791
<smoser> bug 1170393 and bug 1222180 show fix-committed
<ubottu> bug 1170393 in neutron (Ubuntu Saucy) "Quantum services should be respawned by upstart if necessary" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1170393
<ubottu> bug 1222180 in postfix (Ubuntu Saucy) "postfix package produces errors in ubuntu-bug" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222180
<smoser> bug 1188069, mdeslaur should we not have fixed that in saucy?
<ubottu> bug 1188069 in apache2 (Ubuntu Saucy) "apache2 mod_rewrite CVE 2013-1862" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1188069
<smoser> ok. so i think we should probably do something to some of those bugs so that they're not on this list.
<smoser> bug 1206872 and bug 1156932 seem not really relevant.
<ubottu> bug 1206872 in samba (Ubuntu Saucy) "samba fails to unpack (behavior change in patch) and ftbfs on aarch64" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1206872
<ubottu> bug 1156932 in python-novaclient (Ubuntu Saucy) "User can't modify security-group-rule via nova-api if there are duplicated security group name" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1156932
<smoser> so moving on.
<smoser> #topic blueprints
<smoser> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/group/topic-s-servercloud-overview.html
<smoser> well, that clearly shows we have a lot of work to do :)
<smoser> please just take some time and get your pblueprints into order.
<smoser> i still have plenty of work to do. i fthere are things that you're not going to get to, consider postpone.
<smoser> topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (plars)
<smoser> plars,  ?
<plars> smoser: you still have my name on this? :) but nothing this week, psivaa and I are both at a sprint
<smoser> should your name not be here ?
<psivaa> it would help to change it to mine
<smoser> ok.
<smoser> can-do
<psivaa> thanks
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb)
<smb> Xen-4.3 has been uploaded (but needs to be NEWed), thanks zul. Otherwise nothing to report. Any questions?
<plars> smoser: I moved this to psivaa a while back, but we might ought to check if it should go to someone on the qa team or to him still
<smoser> plars, updated https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<smoser> smb i dont have anything.
<smoser> probably noteworth to many here.. bug 1206961 is now 'fix-released'
<smoser> everywhere.
<ubottu> bug 1206961 in linux (Ubuntu Saucy) "Include rbd and kvm modules in the virtual package" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1206961
<smoser> which means if nested virt is available, you'll get it in a cloud image without having to reach for linux-image-extra-virtual.
<smoser> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions regarding Ubuntu ARM Server (rbasak)
<hallyn_> (which means more ppl will hit the other bug)
<rbasak> Nothing new to report. Any questions for me?
<smoser> hallyn_, whats the other bug ?
<hallyn_> nested kvm on intel failing in saucy
<smoser> ah. yeah.
<hallyn_> (more ppl hitting it => good thing)
<smoser> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
<smoser> I think LinuxCon and CloudOpen are both next week.
<smoser> ttx told me he was going.
<smoser> anyone have anythign else?
<smoser> #topic Open Discussion
<smoser> i dont hae much here. just that we're really in crunch time in the cycle.
<smoser> pleae file bugs and subscribe or assign people for work you know needs to be done.
<smoser> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
<smoser> next meeting will be Tuesday Sep 17 at 16:00 UTC
<smoser> #endmeeting
<hallyn_> thx smoser
<arosales> smoser, thanks for chairing ubuntu server meeting
<mdeslaur> smoser: re: 1188069: saucy isn't affected. Updated bug. Thanks.
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep 10 17:00:16 2013 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Saucy
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<rtg> o/
<sconklin> o/
<bjf> o/
<henrix> o/
<smb> o/
<cking> \o
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] ARM Status (ppisati)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: ARM Status (ppisati)
<ppisati> Fixes for Calxeda's NIC and Omap4 mmc landed in S/master-next, and patches
<ppisati> to handle the DTB concatenation and the generic-lpae kernel flavour were
<ppisati> submitted to the flash-kernel mantainer.
<ppisati> In the mean time, while testing the Calxeda kernel a new panic crop up and
<ppisati> investigation is ongoingi (no LP bug was filled yet since we are still ruling out
<ppisati> the hardware).
<ppisati> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Milestone Targeted Work Items (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/~canonical-kernel-distro-team/+upcomingwork
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-s/canonical-kernel-distro-team.html
<jsalisbury> || apw       || foundations-1305-arm64-bringup     || 2 work items ||
<jsalisbury> || bjf       || foundations-1308-kernel            || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> || cking     || foundations-1308-power-measurement || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> || ogasawara || foundations-1308-kernel            || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> || ppisati   || foundations-1305-kernel            || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> || smb       || servercloud-s-virtstack            || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> ||           || servercloud-s-openstack-hypervisor || 1 work item  ||
<jsalisbury> Note: Some of the WI's listed in the table above don't show up in any of
<jsalisbury> the tracking pages due to the BP's needing to get properly assigned to a
<jsalisbury> series (ie Saucy).  I'll try to get this sorted with the BP owners.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Saucy Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Saucy Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<jsalisbury> As noted last week, v3.11 final has been released and we have already
<jsalisbury> rebased.  We have uploaded this to the Saucy archive and it should be
<jsalisbury> available for testing.  Please let us know your results.  We will
<jsalisbury> continue to track the upstream stable v3.11.x releases as we move
<jsalisbury> forward.
<jsalisbury> -----
<jsalisbury> Important upcoming dates:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/ReleaseSchedule
<jsalisbury> Thurs Sep 19 - Final Beta Freeze (~1 week away)
<jsalisbury> Thurs Sep 26 - Final Beta (~2 weeks away)
<jsalisbury> Thurs Oct 03 - Kernel Freeze (~3 weeks away)
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> == 2013-09-10 ==
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Raring/Quantal/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/sconklin)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Sept. 10):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - Skipping this cycle
<bjf>   * Precise - Prep'ing Packages
<bjf>   * Quantal - Prep'ing Packages
<bjf>   * Raring  - Prep'ing Packages
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/sru-report.html
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep 10 17:04:59 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-09-10-17.00.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-09-10-17.00.html
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-09-11
 * slangasek waves
<stokachu> (>'')>
<doko> hi
 * stgraber waves
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Wed Sep 11 15:04:18 2013 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: #accept #accepted #action #agree #agreed #chair #commands #endmeeting #endvote #halp #help #idea #info #link #lurk #meetingname #meetingtopic #nick #progress #rejected #replay #restrictlogs #save #startmeeting #subtopic #topic #unchair #undo #unlurk #vote #voters #votesrequired
<slangasek> [TOPIC] lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh ev bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox stokachu)
<slangasek> ev xnox bdmurray doko slangasek cjwatson stgraber barry jodh stokachu
<slangasek> ev: still in other meetings?
<ev> ja
<xnox> me?
<ev> (upstream merger training)
<slangasek> ev: do you have a report to dump us, or should we skip you for now?
<ev> please skip
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> xnox:
<xnox> - cross-compile qml extensions using cmake, turned out to be much
<xnox>   easier than qmake. Posted to ubuntu-phone mailing list and a wiki
<xnox>   page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/CrossCompile
<xnox> - uploaded ubiquity with a few merge proposals merged & a split of
<xnox>   ubuntuone plugin. Thus it should be possible to seed/unseed
<xnox>   ubuntuone plugin page on per-image basis.
<xnox> - ongoing work to fix bug #1216043
<xnox> - updating kernel-config of linux-goldfish, at the moment it's not
<xnox>   sufficient to neither boot ubuntu nor stock android images. Tracking
<ubottu> bug 1216043 in hw-detect (Ubuntu Saucy) "driver-inject-disk: in target debs are installed before kernel has been" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1216043
<xnox>   bug #1222772
<ubottu> bug 1222772 in linux-goldfish (Ubuntu) "Config changes request to support Ubuntu Touch & stock Android" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222772
<xnox> - prepare/review/submit upstart slides for linuxcon/plumbers
<xnox> - short week: piloting on the 5th, vacation on the 10th (submitted
<xnox>   application to naturalise as British)
<xnox> ..
<bdmurray> SRU verification of bug 1211511
<bdmurray> SRU verification of Q, R ubuntu-release-upgrader bugs
<bdmurray> updated ubuntu-release-upgrader DevelReleaseAnnouncement to say BETA
<bdmurray> tested and uploaded cjwatson's apt-clone fix for bug 1212025
<ubottu> bug 1211511 in update-manager (Ubuntu Raring) "update-manager hides but wants to install ignored phased updates" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1211511
<ubottu> bug 1212025 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Upgrading to Saucy crashes with a unicode error" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1212025
<cjwatson> ta
<bdmurray> uploaded fix for ubuntu-release-upgrader bug 1221307
<bdmurray> research into verification of the fix for bug 1122596 and bug 1058884
<bdmurray> research into bug 1220898 and irc discussion regarding it
<ubottu> bug 1221307 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "SystemError message is unhelpful and causes a crash for non-English languages" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1221307
<ubottu> bug 1122596 in libappindicator (Ubuntu Precise) "Race condition in app_indicator_init() causes application crash" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1122596
<ubottu> bug 1058884 in python3.3 (Ubuntu Raring) "Race condition in py_compile corrupts pyc files" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1058884
<ubottu> bug 1220898 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "generic kernel gets installed in ubuntustudio upgrade." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1220898
<bdmurray> code review of slangasek's ubuntu-release-upgrader cruft removal merge proposal
<bdmurray> fixed an issue with arsenal reports regarding multiple teams
<bdmurray> tested multiple kernels for bug 1218004
<ubottu> bug 1218004 in linux (Ubuntu) "Apple Wireless Trackpad causes kernel oops" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1218004
<bdmurray> â done
<doko> - had vacation days Friday and this week, done some tax stuff, nothing work related
<doko> (done)
<slangasek>  * SecureBoot:
<slangasek>   * fixed sbsigntool to be able to actually reproduce Microsoft-signed binaries byte-for byte, letting us automatically validate the results of SysDev signing
<slangasek>   * uploaded shim-signed, which fixes various bugs and brings in fun new features like netboot support
<slangasek>   * worked with cjwatson to get a pregenerated UEFI netboot image for grub2 - so now we have full SecureBoot netboot support in saucy
<slangasek>   * now need to look at getting this all backported to precise
<slangasek>  * updated mountall for various bugfixes (bug #503003, bug #731800); also makes mountall debuggable without having to edit the upstart job; now dealing with a regression, bug #1223745.
<ubottu> bug 503003 in mountall (Ubuntu) "multiple entries in fstab with same mount-point" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/503003
<slangasek>  * TODO:
<ubottu> bug 731800 in mountall (Ubuntu) "mountall assert failure: mountall.c:1411: Assertion failed in skip_mount: (! mnt->mounted) || needs_remount (mnt)" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/731800
<slangasek>   * parted still not done
<ubottu> bug 1223745 in mountall (Ubuntu) "Dependency resolver causes hang on boot" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1223745
<slangasek>   * plumbers next week
<slangasek>   * booking travel for the client sprint at the end of October (you guys don't have to go, except cjwatson :)
<slangasek>   * get air conditioning, since August has come again
<slangasek> (done)
<cjwatson> Click:
<cjwatson>  Finished deploying preinstalled app handling, although there's a glitch involving needing to re-run system hooks.
<cjwatson>  Wrote a click(1) manual page.
<cjwatson>  Implemented removal support.  (Harder than it looked due to the necessary garbage collection semantics.)
<cjwatson>  Implemented search by name/details in the PackageKit plugin.
<cjwatson>  "click list --manifest" tweak to speed up the system settings UI (bug 1221760).
<ubottu> bug 1221760 in click (Ubuntu) "Having "pkgdir" in the manifest info would be useful" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1221760
<cjwatson>  Various bug fixes (bug 1197047, bug 1215480, bug 1218483).
<cjwatson> OEM bugs:
<ubottu> bug 1197047 in upstart-app-launch (Ubuntu Saucy) "SDK applications create /tmp/*.sci files" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1197047
<cjwatson>  Fixed bug 1097570, pending testing that I haven't broken ordinary booting from hard disk before releasing to saucy.
<ubottu> bug 1215480 in click (Ubuntu) "wrong permissions of click packages due to adb shell umask of 0000" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1215480
<ubottu> bug 1218483 in click (Ubuntu) "Installation errors are not reported" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1218483
<cjwatson>  Attempted to track down bug 1215458, but stymied by parted's debug symbols being unavailable.  Fixed the Debian packaging for that and just received the results of another test run.
<ubottu> bug 1097570 in grub2 (Ubuntu Raring) "grub2-signed can not find the right device when there are two filesystems containing the file '.disk/info'." [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1097570
<ubottu> bug 1215458 in partman-basicfilesystems (Ubuntu) "Auto-partitioning with LVM on Advanced Format Disks causes parted_server segfault" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1215458
<cjwatson>  Investigated bug 1197766 and posted a candidate patch.
<ubottu> bug 1197766 in OEM Priority Project "Different partition layout after recovery with keep home partition" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1197766
<cjwatson> Misc:
<cjwatson>  Rebootstrapped gradle.
<cjwatson>  Various minor transitions, merges, etc.; mostly trying to reduce the list of outstanding changes in -proposed.
<cjwatson> To do:
<cjwatson>  Continue to analyse crash data from 1215458.
<cjwatson>  Organise travel for next client sprint.
<cjwatson>  Start on chroot-management code in click to improve architecture-specific handling.
<cjwatson> ..
<stgraber> Blueprint-related work:
<stgraber>  - Image based updates (BLUEPRINT: foundations-1305-image-based-updates)
<stgraber>    - Made system-images the default
<stgraber>    - Worked with QA to tweak the channel setup and help fix some tests
<stgraber>    - Re-designed channels.json to support channel aliases and hidden channels
<stgraber>    - Did some refactoring in the server code, moved a bunch of stuff from independent scripts to the library and now covered by tests (fixed a few bugs in the process)
<stgraber>    - Implemented and tested support for channel aliases (daily => saucy, stable => saucy)
<stgraber>    - Started working on the import-cdimage rewrite to be much more flexible, drive as many channels as needed, do image expiry, auto-cleanup, shared image pool, support watching http urls (for customization tarballs).
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> Other work:
<stgraber>  - LXC
<stgraber>   - Linux Plumbers mini-conference preparation
<stgraber>   - Some code review
<stgraber>   - Started working on a new website and new domain name for the project
<stgraber>   - Spent a couple of hours updating debian/copyright after the upstream licensing changes (it used to be completely wrong...)
<stgraber>   - Trying to get LXC to behave on an old 2.6.32 based Android phone so I can give my talk next week...
<stgraber>   - Generate the 1.0~alpha1 tarballs, getting a couple of fixes cherry-picked to fix regressions on Ubuntu Touch for an upload tonight or tomorrow morning.
<stgraber>  - Other
<stgraber>   - Various additions to writable-paths in Ubuntu Touch
<stgraber>   - Some rework of the initrd hook to fix file/directory ownership for writable paths.
<stgraber>   - Code reviews and tests for the guys working on Ubuntu Touch customizations
<stgraber>   - Debugged sssd 1.11 breaking with samba4, now fixed in upstream git and cherry-picked to saucy.
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> TODO (hopefully this week):
<stgraber>  - Upload LXC 1.0~alpha1 (waiting for a fix from Dwight)
<stgraber>  - Finish the import-cdimage rewrite (now scheduled to land on Monday)
<stgraber>  - Implement the boot-time hooks for Ubuntu touch
<stgraber>  - Plumbers 2013 prep
<stgraber> (DONE)
<barry> system-image: LP: #1215959; LP: #1221841; LP: #1196991 (ongoing).  1.5 and 1.5.1 uploaded.  weekly meeting.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1215959 in Ubuntu system image "Report image versions" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1215959
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1221841 in Ubuntu system image "Support the new channels.json format in a backward compatible way" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1221841
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1196991 in Ubuntu system image "Support the new download dbus service" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1196991
<barry> other: tox issue #122 (affected system-image local testing).  virtualenv, pip, tox, nose2 packaging work.  dmb meeting.  awaiting FFes.  LP: #1223004.  LP: #1223001.  LP: #1223483. Debian bug #722295.  pip 1.4.1-2.  Debugging kernel regressions LP: #1223352 and LP: #1223408.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1223004 in python-oauthlib (Ubuntu) "[FFe] sync with debian which has 0.5.1" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1223004
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1223001 in python-pip (Ubuntu) "[FFe] sync python-pip 1.4.1 from debian" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1223001
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1223483 in python-virtualenv (Ubuntu) "[FFe] sync 1.10.1 from Debian" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1223483
<ubottu> Debian bug 722295 in python-pip "python-pip: ca-certificates needs to be Depends rather than Recommends" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/722295
<barry> âº
<jodh> * upstart:
<jodh>   - Fixed bug in Upstart apport hook.
<jodh>   - Fixed bug 1221466 and bug 1222702. Awaiting feedback on MP with new
<jodh>     tests:
<ubottu> bug 1221466 in upstart (Ubuntu) "upstart-file-bridge 'EVENT=create' not working for directories" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1221466
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/upstart/bug-1221466+1222702/+merge/184829
<ubottu> bug 1222702 in upstart (Ubuntu) "upstart-file-bridge assert failure: upstart-file-bridge.c:1162: Assertion failed in delete_handler: strstr (path, dir->path) == path" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222702
<jodh>   - Fixed failing quiesce tests. Awaiting feedback on updated MP:
<jodh>     https://code.launchpad.net/~jamesodhunt/upstart/test-quiesce-cleanup/+merge/182698
<jodh>   - Investigating bug 1222705.
<ubottu> bug 1222705 in upstart (Ubuntu) "init assert failure: alloc.c:633: Assertion failed in nih_unref: ref != NULL" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1222705
<jodh>   - Investigating suspected race in system init re-exec test causing
<jodh>     occasional failure.
<jodh>  
<jodh>   - Updated Technical Overview for Upstart:
<jodh>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SaucySalamander/TechnicalOverview#Upstart_1.10
<jodh> * misc:
<jodh>   - Linux Plumbers preparation.
<jodh> å¥
<xnox> jodh: re upstart-file-bridge MP: looks good, but didn't run the tests yet, want to run them before merging.
<stokachu> bug 1160490 - i think slangasek tasked himself to upload? and having a really tough time getting traction on bug 1157943
<jodh> xnox: great, thanks.
<ubottu> bug 1160490 in ifupdown (Ubuntu Raring) "race condition updating statefile" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1160490
<ubottu> bug 1157943 in apt (Ubuntu Precise) "apt-get update fails hash checks on https repositories when file size changes" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1157943
<stokachu> done
<xnox> slangasek: i guess the test-quiesce-cleanup branch is for you to further comment on =)
<slangasek> barry: do you have an eta for bug #1196991?  that seems to be the critical piece we're still missing
<ubottu> bug 1196991 in Ubuntu system image "Support the new download dbus service" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1196991
<slangasek> stokachu: yeah, 1160490 still on my radar
<stokachu> slangasek: thanks man, arges ^
<arges> slangasek: thanks
<barry> slangasek: if nothing else intrudes, from a few days to eow.
<barry> (some refactoring is required, but this will also close a few other bugs)
<slangasek> xnox, jodh: test-quiesce-cleanup> right, I need to circle around on that one; I still have my doubts that these changes are correct, but need to actually review the code to be sure
<slangasek> barry: ok, perfect!  do you need any help keeping out intruders?  I can post sentries ;)
<barry> slangasek: i might! ;)
<stgraber> slangasek: I think I've been the biggest source of delays to barry's work so far but that's because of other bits that were higher priority. I don't think I've got anything else to get in before the D/L service work now, so hopefully barry can focus on that :)
<slangasek> stokachu: 1157943> if you want a response from David, you're going to need to reach out to him more directly than a "ping" on the bug log
<barry> yay! :)
<stokachu> slangasek: so just start emailing him directly then?
<stokachu> slangasek: didnt want to piss him off
<slangasek> stgraber, barry: right, sounds good
<slangasek> stokachu: by "more directly", I mean you might want to at least make it clear in your email to the bug that you're addressing him :)
<stokachu> slangasek: ok
<slangasek> stokachu: I always think it's best to keep the discussion on the public bug tracker, but use his name / make it clear you're looking for his input.  Remember he's a non-Canonical upstream, so he also doesn't have any obligation to help us on your time line
<slangasek> any other questions / discussion over status?
<stokachu> gotcha
<slangasek> stokachu: oh, and if you want to get him on IRC, he's DonKult and hangs around in some ubuntu channels
<slangasek> (sometimes)
<stokachu> slangasek: ok ill keep an eye out for him, looks like he's not on any channels atm
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else on people's minds?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] LXC
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: LXC
<slangasek> new topic, then :)
<slangasek> you are now a captive audience for stgraber to practice his LXC material for Plumbers next week ;)
<stgraber> Alright, so LXC.
<stgraber> I guess everyone knows what LXC is and that most of you already use it voluntarily or not.
<stgraber> The LXC project is about writing convenient tools, libraries and bindings to the various containment APIs available in the kernel.
<stgraber> As it's today, that's: namespaces (ipc, pid, utc, mount, network and user), cgroups (all the controllers are supported), capabilities, apparmor (custom profiles per container) and seccomp (custom profile per container).
<stgraber>  
<stgraber> The current stable version of LXC is 0.9, released back in April after a 5 months development cycle.
<stgraber> The next release is going to be 1.0, for that one we've agreed on a much longer development cycle which started back in April with the release planned in early February (10 months).
<stgraber> (I've got a bunch of stuff ready to paste but will do so in batches, so don't hesitate to ask questions at any time and I'll stop)
<stgraber> The longer development cycle is explained by a lot of work needing to happen and some high expectations for a 1.0 release.
<stgraber> By the time we release 1.0, we're planning on doing:
<stgraber>  - rewrite all our tools to use our public library instead of internal functions
<stgraber>  - release a stable version of the liblxc API
<stgraber>  - release a stable API for all supported bindings (python3, lua and go)
<stgraber>  - version our internal management protocol and have limited backward compatibility there
<stgraber>  - get fully functional user namespace support
<stgraber>  - support kernels from 2.6.32 kernel to whatever is latest at the time of release
<stgraber>  - support for building under the Android NDK
<stgraber>  - support for container cloning, snapshotting and backing store plugins
<stgraber>  - and a LOT of refactoring, bug fixes and templates improvement
<stgraber>  - actively maintain the 1.0 branch for a minimum of 2 years
<stgraber> LXC is also in a transitional phase at the moment where Daniel Lezcano is still the only commiter to our master branch and Serge Hallyn and I are the only commiters for the staging branch.
<stgraber> It's planned that during Plumbers 2013 next week, Daniel will hand over maintenance of the LXC project to Serge and I.
<stgraber> This should make it a lot easier for Serge and I to release new snapshots and try to move the project to a single place (likely github), reducing the amount of infrastructure we need to maintain for the project and hopefully making it easier for our contributors.
<stgraber> Some quick stats for the 1.0 release, we've had so far 343 commits from 27 different authors. We're doing around 25-30 code reviews a week which results in around 20 commits to the staging branch.
<stgraber> Canonical (through Serge, Scott and I) represent around 55% of the changes to LXC, Oracle is next with Dwight Engen contributing almost 20% of the changes, then we have a set of recuring contributors contributing around 15% of the changes and the remaining 10% are drive-by contributions.
<slangasek> stgraber: so why draw the line at 2.6.32?
<slangasek> that seems old :)
<stgraber> that's lucid and older RHEL6
<stokachu> i read that post from smoser on the overlayfs and user-data, can't wait for that in a supported release
<stgraber> (well, all RHEL6 is 2.6.32 but they cherry-picked a lot of stuff from later releases)
<slangasek> yeah - is it necessary to support lucid from lxc 1.0?  I assume we aren't going to SRU it
<stgraber> also the device I use to test LXC on Android only runs 2.6.32 :)
<slangasek> hah, ok
<stgraber> LXC uses good old mailing-list posts for code reviews and we don't run any Jenkins or similar CI infrastructure. We however have a build and test environment which we use to generate our PPA builds and that runs test builds on amd64, i386 and armhf, as well as cross-compile to current Android and uploads to coverity. The result can be found at: http://lxc.dev.stgraber.org with successful builds ending up on ppa:ubuntu-lxc/daily (built for
<stgraber> Serge also maintains a few test kernels with user namespaces enabled in ppa:ubuntu-lxc/kernel
<stgraber> hmm, that first line almost certainly got cut, can someone tell me where it did?
<stokachu> (built for
<slangasek> yeah, ^^
<stgraber> "(built for precise, quantal, raring and saucy)."
<stgraber> So as I said earlier, we're planning on releasing LXC 1.0 in early February 2014 just in time for the 14.04 FeatureFreeze.
<stgraber> From that point on, our plan is to push any fix that should get into Ubuntu to the upstream 1.0.x stable branch and get an MRE to land those directly as SRU.
<stgraber> That should be a huge improvement over our current SRU workflow where we're cherry-picking fixes one by one then SRU to 3 releases (we're pretty good at getting test results so it's not been a huge problem, but cherry-picking the fixes is time consuming).
<stgraber> LXC got promoted to main earlier in the saucy cycle and is now a supported server technology.
<stgraber> It's also heavily used by Ubuntu Touch to run the Android system on the phones and tablets where we simply boot an image of an Android system partition as the rootfs for an LXC container while sharing the network namespace with the host.
<stgraber> This gives the impression to Android that it's the only operating system running, letting it do all the hardware initialization that we need while also letting the Ubuntu system outside the container access any file or socket that we need from Android.
<stgraber> The reverse also exists with the Android/bionic port of LXC which allows running LXC natively on Android, provided the device has a kernel supporting all the features we need. This is used as the base for Ubuntu for Android.
<stgraber> Oh, and as for LXC in saucy, we're currently on a patched version of 0.9.0 but with LXC 1.0 alpha1 released yesterday, we're actively working on landing that in the archive as soon as we fix a small regression preventing LXC from running on read-only systems (a bit of a problem for Ubuntu Touch apparently).
<stgraber> So I think that's about it. I hope not too many of you felt asleep due to my rather long paste ;)
<stgraber> Any questions?
<stokachu> cant wait!
<stokachu> with the userspace stuff will be effectively replacing other virtualization technologies?
<cjwatson> stgraber: Do you have plans for further arkose work?
<cjwatson> Oh, and what's the state of LXC in Debian?
<stgraber> cjwatson: yes, I plan on reworking arkose quite a bit once we get full user namespace support in our kernel and in LXC
<stgraber> cjwatson: with the goal of having arkose run entirely as a user
<barry> stgraber: would it make sense to get the py3 bindings up on pypi?  i don't think any of these are official upstream: https://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=lxc&submit=search
<xnox> stokachu: e.g. user namespace support would it be something one would want to support natively in upstart - e.g. start this job under modified usernamespaces? (similar how we already support chroot, uid, gid stanzas)
<xnox> stgraber: e.g. user namespace support would it be something one would want to support natively in upstart - e.g. start this job under modified usernamespaces? (similar how we already support chroot, uid, gid stanzas)
<stgraber> stokachu: the user namespace work will allow users to run containers without requiring sudo rights and still get uid 0 in the container. So that should make lxc even more popular than it's today by reducing the rights an administrator has to grant.
<xnox> ... or one should simply start lxc container and go from there.
<barry> stgraber: that will be very cool
<stokachu> stgraber: awesome that was a huge feature i was hoping would make it
<stgraber> xnox: I had that discussion with jodh the other day and I think it may be interesting to allow upstart to clone a job in a new namespace, so that someone could decide that a job should get its own pid namespace or network namespace or user namespace ... as a way to reduce the attack surface
<slangasek> stgraber: and the user namespace still requires some privileged helper to give you mapped uids from a certain range, right?  The kernel doesn't have a concept of "nested" uids?
<stgraber> barry: I'd have to check how pypi works but yeah, none of those are official upstream bindings and I suspect they're all wrappers around our binaries rather than binding against our library
<xnox> slangasek: that's done in passwd (define allowed mappings) and that has landed in saucy now.
<barry> stgraber: happy to help with any of that
<slangasek> xnox: yes, my point is that user namespaces work slightly differently than how one might expect
<stgraber> slangasek: right, a user needs a UID and GID range assigned in /etc/subuid and /etc/subgid. Those then get set in the user's session parent PID so that any sub process can then switch to any of those uids/gids
<slangasek> because they use up "real" uids from the root system
<xnox> slangasek: right, so it is indeed unlike pid ns.
<stgraber> then each container has a map of real uids => fake uids and real gids => fake gids and we've got tools to "switch uids/gids"
<xnox> slangasek: which does use "real" and "fake" pids at the same time.... but I see your point.
<stgraber> the containers then get their own range (subset of the parent's) so we can still do nested containers, it just requires a fair amount of configuration and enough uids/gids to begin with
 * slangasek nods
<stgraber> the current blocker for having user namespace by default in our kernel is a conflict with the xfs module
<stgraber> but apparently Oracle has been working on that, so this may have been fixed already or is about to be
 * stgraber checks on kernel.org
<slangasek> interesting
<stgraber> doesn't appear to be there yet, so hopefully will be in the next one
<slangasek> architecturally, the idea of using ranges of real uids still seems sketchy to me
<slangasek> I understand why it might not be realistic to have nested uids added to the kernel, since uids are everywhere :)
<slangasek> but it just feels mismatched compared with the net/fs namespaces
<stgraber> yes, it's not ideal and is pretty confusing but we had no realistic chances of getting nested uids in the kernel
 * slangasek nods
<stgraber> it was already hard enough to get the rest of userns in which required changes to all the filesystem drivers and a bunch of other core changes
<stgraber> hopefully we can make our tools good enough that most users won't even have to care about it
<slangasek> so I imagine next week we're going to be talking a lot about cgroups
<slangasek> feel like explaining the mismatch between systemd and lxc cgroup heirarchies? :)
<slangasek> (if not, ok, - we're almost at time anyway)
<stgraber> sure
<stgraber> so cgroups (control groups) were designed as a way to assign resource limits and get statistics to/from processes
<stgraber> there are a variety of controllers available that let you restrict resources, get statistics or both. The current list is:
<stgraber> blkio  cpu  cpuacct  cpuset  devices  freezer  hugetlbmemoryperf_event
<slangasek> right - so each "controller" controls a different type of resource?
<stgraber> hmm, the last ones got messed up, those are hugetlb, memory and perf_event
<stgraber> correct
<stgraber> they work by showing a standard fs hierarchy
<stgraber> you can create directories that inherit resource allocation from their parent
<stgraber> and usually (but not necessarily) can't set allocations higher than their parent
<stgraber> most controllers also support chowning the directories to give control to non-root processes
<stgraber> using those hierarchies comes at a cost since every time the process requires access to the resource, the whole tree has to be resolved to figure out what's the actual allocation
<stgraber> so having a tree of say /systemd/user/<uid>/cgroup/... is usually seen as a bad idea (for LXC we use either /<container-name> or /lxc/<container-name> which tends to be reasonable)
<stgraber> now, logind uses cgroups but in a pretty weird way
<stgraber> it uses a fake hierarchy called "systemd" which isn't tied to any controller
<stgraber> so it's essentially cgroups without the "c" part
<stgraber> they then use the hierarchy feature to match the user and user sessions and use the notify.on_release feature of cgroups to get a notification when the cgroup is empty or they iter through /tasks to call all the pids in the cgroup
<stgraber> it's actually not so bad from a performance issue since they don't have any resource alocation applied though it's a bit of an abuse of cgroups to use a cgroup without resource controler :)
<stgraber> then there's the problem that any process running under logind will appear as part of a cgroup but only that systemd one, not any of the other. Which causes a few issues for tools expecting consistent use of cgroups (with the same hierarchy existing for all the controllers)
<slangasek> so these cgroups are actually being used exclusively for process tracking, and *not* for resource allocation?
<stgraber> for an example, look at "cat /proc/self/cgroup" on a >= raring system
<stgraber> you'll notice that the process is in an controller-less name=systemd cgroup and in / for all the others
<stgraber> now that's apparently about to change since Lennart has worked on a proposal (and I believe implementation) of a new systemd/logind API to control all the controllers
<stgraber> I don't know whether the plan is to use all of them by default on systemd systems (which would lead to a performance regression) but he's certainly pushing for libvirt and any software using cgroups to use that API for cgroup management
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> so there should be good discussions next week :)
<slangasek> stgraber: thanks for the talk
<slangasek> any questions?
 * barry can't wait for the video
<stgraber> I guess so, we don't have too many (if any) talks about cgroups in the containers track as we've got more important stuff to discuss like usernamespaces but I'm sure we'll have some discussions outside the track
<stgraber> especially as Serge has been working on a similar cgroup manager before Lennart announced his plan
<slangasek> heh, alrighty :)
<stgraber> (having a privileged daemon on the host machine that containers and sub-containers can talk to to get changes applied to cgroups, doing all of the policy checks in one central place)
<slangasek> right, that was the point Lennart was making at DebConf
<slangasek> that cgroup change management needs to have a single owner
<stgraber> (that's important as containers running in a different userns won't be able to change cgroup options, so we need a privileged daemon they can talk to to do that, but I doubt logind/systemd is the answer there)
<slangasek> should be fun :)
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Wed Sep 11 16:10:57 2013 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes (wiki):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-09-11-15.04.moin.txt
<meetingology> Minutes (html):        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2013/ubuntu-meeting.2013-09-11-15.04.html
<slangasek> thanks everyone!
<jodh> thanks!
<stgraber> yep
<barry> thanks!
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-09-14
<slick0_> any rists in he nd  make a confesion
<slick0_> any priests in here?
#ubuntu-meeting 2013-09-15
<drfaustus> hi
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-09-08
<jdstrand> hi!
<chrisccoulson> hi
<mdeslaur> hello!
<jjohansen> \o
<tyhicks> hello
<jdstrand> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep  8 16:54:46 2014 UTC.  The chair is jdstrand. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jdstrand> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<jdstrand> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<jdstrand> I'll go first
<jdstrand> I'm on triage this week
<jdstrand> I'm working on landing apparmor in silo 014 today in utopic, then moving on to landing it in the rtm branch
<jdstrand> after that I will work to do whatever is needed to get the kernel tested and up
<jdstrand> I will be patch piloting this week too
<jdstrand> mdeslaur: you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm on community this week
<mdeslaur> I just published a couple of USNs
<mdeslaur> and am finishing some extra testing of the qemu and qemu-kvm packages that have been in -proposed for the past few weeks
<mdeslaur> I'll be publishing them this afternoon
<mdeslaur> Then I'm going to work on a long lost nss CVE
<mdeslaur> and have an embargoed issue to look at
<mdeslaur> and will go down the list after that
<mdeslaur> that's it from me, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm focusing on apparmor again this week.
<sbeattie> I'll be doing whatever's needed to land the current bits that jamie has siloed for utopic and RTM, then moving on to fix whatever bugs we still need to address beyond that.
<sbeattie> that's pretty much it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: ?
<tyhicks> I'm helping with the apparmor landings
<tyhicks> I'm going through the remaining socketpair.sh and unix_socket.sh regression test failures and triaging them all
<tyhicks> I need to finish testing a parser fix (that also affects the man page and unix_socket.sh regression tests) and send that out
<tyhicks> I'm also addressing the feedback from sarnold (thanks!) on my unix_socket.sh changes so that I can get them committed to trunk
<tyhicks> then I'll be fixing bugs, as needed
<tyhicks> if I can break away for a bit, I need to respond to the upstream feedback that I received from the v3 dbus-daemon patches
<tyhicks> and there's pending ecryptfs maint work for me
<tyhicks> (not likely to get to that)
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I'm focusing on apparmor this week as well, specifically I have some kernel refcount/locking bugs to fix
<jjohansen> once those are done, what ever misc bugs pop up during testing/verification
<jjohansen> thats it for me sarnold you are up
<sarnold> I'm in the happy place this week
<sarnold> but I've got a package to release from a user carried-over to this week (mariadb-5.5) and two supported packages to release this week (file, php5)
<sarnold> due to kvm hilarity I'm using canonistack for testing, hopefully al three will be out the door today
<mdeslaur> sarnold: what the status of django?
<sarnold> I intend to do some more apparmor patch reviews, I believe there are several left over from last week unreviewed still
<sarnold> mdeslaur: not yet started
<sarnold> mdeslaur: I had intended to prioritize apparmor patch reviews; would you rather I work on django update instead?
<mdeslaur> sarnold: no, please do the apparmor first
<mdeslaur> I'll try and do django this week
<mdeslaur> so don't start it
<sarnold> mdeslaur: okay, thanks
<sarnold> if there's time left over, I'll return to an old, complicated, MIR request
<sarnold> I think that's me covered, chrisccoulson?
<chrisccoulson> I've got a couple of updates to do this week - one of those is Thunderbird from last week, but I'm waiting for the 31.1.1 build because it fixes an autocomplete regression
<chrisccoulson> I shall also be looking at bug 1260016
<ubottu> bug 1260016 in oxide-qt (Ubuntu) "Add an API to allow defining custom URL scheme delegates" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1260016
<chrisccoulson> in addition to the usual stuff
<chrisccoulson> that's me done :)
<jdstrand> chrisccoulson: can I mark that bug in progress? (so people know)
<chrisccoulson> jdstrand, sure
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<jdstrand> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<jdstrand> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/gromacs.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/djbdns.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/a2ps.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/isync.html
<jdstrand> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/xnbd.html
<jdstrand> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<jdstrand> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
 * xnox o/
<dannf> o/
 * bdmurray is here
<caribou> o/
<xnox> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdrung, ScottK, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
 * stgraber waves
<stgraber> so I believe Laney is on vacation this week.
<xnox> stgraber: yeap, I've just texted him and he is flying in two hours.
<stgraber> we need a 4th member to have quorum, let's hope ScottK or Micah will show up then...
<stgraber> otherwise I'd recommend we just bring both applicants to e-mail application, it's been what 2-3 meetings where we fail to get quorum now?
<xnox> or we could start the meeting and/or collect votes when they show/email.
<stgraber> sure, that works for me
<stgraber> should make the e-mail application process much quicker
<xnox> bdmurray: stgraber: xnox - who wants to chair?
<xnox> =)
<bdmurray> xnox: you seem to have the plan ;-)
<xnox> hehe.
<xnox> #startmeeting DMB Meeting
<meetingology> xnox: Error: Can't start another meeting, one is in progress.
<xnox> #endmeeting
<stgraber> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep  8 19:12:37 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-09-08-16.54.moin.txt
<stgraber> xnox: try now
<xnox> \o/
<xnox> I guess jdstrand forgot to finish theirs.
<xnox> #startmeeting DMB Meeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep  8 19:13:01 2014 UTC.  The chair is xnox. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<jdstrand> oh I did
<jdstrand> sorry!
<xnox> jdstrand: welcome to DMB meeting =) wanna chair?! =)
<jdstrand> heh
<xnox> i'm not sure if we have any actions from past meetings.
<xnox> So i think we can just continue through to applications
<stgraber> those usually end up with me and I'm not aware of anything I forgot to do :)
<xnox> #topic - PPU application Louis Bouchard
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: - PPU application Louis Bouchard
<caribou> Hello everyone
<xnox> caribou: hola! Welcome to DMB meeting. Could you please say hi and a few words about yourself and your application today?
<caribou> Sure, my name is Louis Bouchard,
<caribou> I have been involved with the ubuntu project directly for a bit more than 3 years
<caribou> I have been a contributing developer for over a year now. I am was doing sponsored maintenance of makedumpfile on Debian for over 2 years
<caribou> and I am now the official Debian Maintainer. I'm doing my best to keep the delta b/w Debian & Ubuntu to Null
<caribou> I've also been involved on sosreport for more than a year and am part of the upstream development team
<caribou> I am applying today for upload rights on those two packages : sosreport & makedumpfile
<caribou> the intent being to be involved on both Debian & Ubuntu activities and to keep the gap as small as possible between both
<stgraber> caribou: are you a DM for both package or just makedumpfile?
<xnox> and as per https://ftp-master.debian.org/dm.txt you do have DM rights to upload those two packages in Debian already. (
<stgraber> that answers my question :)
<xnox> i granted sosreport DM rights to caribou in Debian.
<xnox> )
<stgraber> caribou: are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<caribou> Currently just for makedumpfile as sosreport has no official DM. I'm working with Adam Stokes to fix that up
<caribou> stgraber: I thought I was, then recently discovered that I was no longer; just ubuntu-devel.
<xnox> caribou: .... there are no email notifications, but you have been granted upload rights for sosreport.
<stgraber> ok, please make sure you subscribe to ubuntu-devel-announce
<stgraber> caribou: are any of those packages seeded?
<caribou> stgraber: sosreport is seeded on the ubuntu-server image
<caribou> stgraber: done
<stgraber> good :)
<stgraber> caribou: why do we carry a delta on sosreport?
<caribou> stgraber: right now, upstream is at 3.2-alpha and Utopic is at 3.1.1 plus a few patches which are backport of 3.2-alpha
<caribou> stgraber: the delta is mainly to make some of the data collection submitted upstream available to Ubuntu faster, especially for the technical support people using sosreport
<caribou> stgraber: which rely on this tool daily
<caribou> stgraber: many of those upstream fixes are coming from them
<stgraber> cool
<stgraber> xnox: no further question, ready to vote
<caribou> stgraber: FYI, turns out that I *am* subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce :-)
<xnox> bdmurray: any more questions from you?
<xnox> caribou: yeah, please stop sorting that to /dev/null then ;-) *giggle*
<caribou> xnox: will do :)
<stgraber> did we losoe Brian? :)
<bdmurray> caribou: are you subscribed to bugs about sosreport and makedumpfile?
<caribou> bdmurray: I'm affraid not, as I realized this morning after asking for a new makedumpfile bug to be created & didn't get any notice
<xnox> caribou: please subscribe to those two packages - both on launchpad (for ubuntu) and BTS (for debian)
<bdmurray> caribou: it sounds like you plan on fixing this though, rigth?
<caribou> bdmurray: indeed (for Ubuntu as it seems to be already the case for BTS)
<caribou> bdmurray: again, this might be a case where I am but forgot : I'm just checking my mail for today & see that the new makedumpfile email is in
<bdmurray> caribou: you aren't currently - https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sosreport
<bdmurray> see the "Subscribers" portlet
<bdmurray> that's it from me
<caribou> bdmurray: indeed, but a team I belong to is, which is why I get them. I will make sure to subscribe as an individual as well
<xnox> ok. no questions from me.
<stgraber> let's vote then (partial vote though as we said earlier)
<xnox> #vote Please vote whether you are in favor to grant caribou PPU rights for sosreport & makedumpfile
<meetingology> Please vote on: Please vote whether you are in favor to grant caribou PPU rights for sosreport & makedumpfile
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<stgraber> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from stgraber
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
<xnox> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from xnox
<xnox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Please vote whether you are in favor to grant caribou PPU rights for sosreport & makedumpfile
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<xnox> please note that Motion is not carried yet, as we do not have quorum. Remaining dmb members will ask further questions via email
<xnox> and/or vote via email.
<caribou> Thank you all, I'll be waiting for emails later on
<xnox> caribou: thanks a lot for your time today, and stay tuned on the emails =)
<caribou> xnox: sure
<xnox> #topic Core Dev application Dann Frazier
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Core Dev application Dann Frazier
<xnox> dannf: Hello! Thanks for waiting. Please introduce yourself and your application =)
<dannf> hey, I'm dann frazier - 14 year DD where I've served on the kernel, stable release and security teams. I've been a contributor to Ubuntu for about 4 years. These days I'm mostly working on arm64/server stuff - hardware enablement/porting, and random bug fixing.
<dannf> My contributions are generally random bug fixing/enablement patches (vs. introducing new packages, etc), and tend to be a bit all over the place (though normally in main).
<dannf> I'm not an existing Ubuntu member - which I presume suspect makes going straight for CoreDev a bit optimistic, but it does seem to be the level of permission I'd need to do the type of work I do. I'm open to other starting point recommendations if I'm overshooting.
<dannf> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DannFrazier/CoreDeveloperApplication
<dannf> And yes, I'm subscribed to u-d-a :)
<dannf> </intro>
 * stgraber checks the package list to see if coredev is actually required
<xnox> stgraber: i've sponsored d-i components from dannf before, and all of them are in main.
<xnox> and i don't think just server seed would be enough to upload d-i, let me check.
<dannf> flash-kernel tends to be a heavy contribution point for me, but i do think that'll slow down as we see more uefi based systems
<stgraber> coredev makes sense, there are a couple that are in virt/server but most of the packages listed are in core and should stay there
<stgraber> dannf: I'm assuming that as a DD you'll keep trying to get as much of that work done in Debian and prefer syncs into Ubuntu over adding extra delta?
<dannf> stgraber: yes, always have, and always plan to :)
<stgraber> good :)
<stgraber> dannf: same question as caribou, are you subscribed to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<dannf> stgraber: yep, for at least year
<stgraber> dannf: do you know how to check whether uploading a package will affect a media which may be in the middle of a milestone release?
<dannf> stgraber: good question. i don't know of an *easy* way. most everything i do is netboot oriented, and i know how to check that - but not sure how to check for ISO impact w/o inspecting an ISO
<stgraber> dannf: seeded-in-ubuntu <source name>
<xnox> dannf: can you describe SRU process briefly in your own words - what stages/steps does it go through and what needs to happen at each stage/step?
<dannf> xnox: sure.
<dannf> 1) bug gets filed 2) bug gets nominated for the impacted stable releases (i e-mail the ubuntu-bugcontrol LP list to request this)
<dannf> (my numbers aren't necessarily in order, since somethings can happen in parallel)
<dannf> 3) fix gets applied to the current devel release (if applicable)
<dannf> 4) patch/MP added to bug for SRU, description altered to match the SRU template
<dannf> [Impact], [Test Case], [Regression Potential]
<dannf> upload gets sponsored, uploaded to proposed
<dannf> 5^
<dannf> 6) verification in proposed occurs, tag switches from verification-needed to verification-done after testing
<dannf> 7) if everything test ok/risk of regression deemed reasonable, propagation occurs to updates
<xnox> dannf: does package get published in -proposed straight away after an upload?
<dannf> xnox: right, no - they sit in a queue awiting review from the SRU team
<xnox> ok.
<xnox> dannf: how are you planning to minimize existing divergence from upstreams? What if ubuntu is diverged from both upstream and debian - which divergence would you try to minimise?
<xnox> (me asking RE: application form "What I like least in Ubuntu")
<dannf> well, i guess it depends on the divergence need - but i would probably try to minimize the debian divergence vs. the upstream divergence as a normal practice (if the debian divergence itself couldn't be minimized)
<xnox> ok.
<xnox> bdmurray: stgraber: any more questions?
<bdmurray> not from me
<stgraber> nope
<xnox> #vote granting dannf Core Developer status
<meetingology> Please vote on: granting dannf Core Developer status
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<stgraber> +1 [While I usually prefer people to get Ubuntu Membership and some kind of PPU before coredev, I also trust Steve and Serge's judgment. That combined with the package list being requested, coredev doesn't seem unreasonable.]
<meetingology> +1 [While I usually prefer people to get Ubuntu Membership and some kind of PPU before coredev, I also trust Steve and Serge's judgment. That combined with the package list being requested, coredev doesn't seem unreasonable.] received from stgraber
<xnox> +1 [please do more partman/d-i development =)]
<meetingology> +1 [please do more partman/d-i development =)] received from xnox
<bdmurray> +1 from me too
<meetingology> +1 from me too received from bdmurray
<xnox> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: granting dannf Core Developer status
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<xnox> dannf: please note that Motion is not carried yet, as we do not have quorum. Remaining dmb members will ask further questions via email and/or vote.
<dannf> cool, thanks for your consideration :)
<xnox> dannf: thanks for you time, and keep an eye on your inbox in the coming days. =)
<xnox> thank you everyone, we are just past the hour already.
<xnox> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep  8 20:07:10 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-09-08-19.13.moin.txt
 * dannf notes i'll be on vacation for about a week starting wednesday (getting married!) so unfortunately responses maybe delayed
<caribou> congratulations dannf
<dannf> thx caribou ! you too!
<dannf> (preliminarily of course)
<caribou> I'm honoured to have shared that session with you :)
<caribou> thanks everyone
<xnox> dannf: congratulations! =)
<dannf> caribou: you as well, *love* seeing what you've been doing with crashdump support
<dannf> boo
<dannf> typed too slow
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-09-09
<kickinz1> \o
<beisner> o/
<coreycb> \o
<gaughen> o/   \o   o/    \o
<gaughen> who's up?
<zul> agenda says arosales
<gaughen> I think he's sprinting
<gaughen> as is gnouy
<gaughen> so coreycb are you?
<coreycb> gaughen, gah
<gaughen> ha!
<coreycb> gaughen, let me find links
<matsubara> o/
<smoser> o/
<smoser> coreycb, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting/IRCCommands
<coreycb> smoser, thanks!
<coreycb> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep  9 16:08:13 2014 UTC.  The chair is coreycb. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<coreycb> hello everyone
<rbasak> o/
<coreycb> welcome to the weekely server team meeting
<coreycb> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<jamespage> o/
<coreycb> I don't see any action items from 9/2
<coreycb> #topic Utopic Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Utopic Development
<coreycb> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseSchedule
<coreycb> It's sept 9th today.  Final beta freeze is 9/25
<coreycb> #subtopic Release Bugs
<coreycb> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-u-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<coreycb> looks like the only non committed bug is bug 1350810
<ubottu> bug 1350810 in byobu (Ubuntu Utopic) "Shift-F2 no longer working in Byobu in Ubuntu 14.10 (utopic) with tmux 1.9" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1350810
<coreycb> that is, for bugs of high or critical importance
<coreycb> that's byobu, I'll ping kirkland
<coreycb> I don't see him in here so I pinged him separately
<coreycb> #subtopic Blueprints
<coreycb> #link http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-u/group/topic-u-server.html
<coreycb> please review your assigned blueprints for any features that need to be postponed for 14.10 release, since we're beyond feature freeze
<coreycb> #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-u-server
<coreycb> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<coreycb> good timing caribou
<caribou> coreycb: indeed.
<caribou> coreycb: everything is ok on my side
<coreycb> caribou, ok thanks
<coreycb> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (psivaa)
<coreycb> psivaa, howdy
<psivaa> coreycb: nothing from us this week too
<coreycb> psivaa, ok thanks
<coreycb> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
<arges> o/
<arges> coreycb: you can probably add me to the list since i'll be attending these too
<coreycb> arges, will do, was just thinking that
<coreycb> arges, smb, sforshee: do you have any updates this week?
<sforshee> smb is still out, I don't have any updates
<arges> kickinz1: bcache bug is fixed upstream, so that should trickle down soon
<coreycb> sforshee, ok thanks.  does anyone have anything for the kernel team?
<kickinz1> arges, thanks!
<coreycb> thanks arges , anything else?
<arges>  no
<coreycb> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<coreycb> I know there are a few different sprints going on
<coreycb> is there anything we'd like to discuss here?
<coreycb> alright
<coreycb> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<zul> i like peanuts
<coreycb> does anyone have anything they'd like to discuss?  (other than zul)
<coreycb> :)
<caribou> zul: Snoopy is my favorite
<zul> i like marmalade
<coreycb> zul also likes turtles
<coreycb> #topic Announce next meeting date and time
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date and time
<zul> indeed
<coreycb> +7 days!
<coreycb> thanks everyone
<coreycb> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep  9 16:26:16 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-09-09-16.08.moin.txt
<kickinz1> thanks coreycb
<caribou> thanks coreycb
<gaughen> thank you coreycb for stepping up at the last minute!
 * zul lunches
<coreycb> kickinz1|afk, caribou, gaughen: np!
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep  9 17:00:14 2014 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Utopic
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<arges> o/
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<ppisati> o/
<cking> o/
<bjf> o/
<sforshee> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<henrix> o/
<rtg> o/
<arges> o\
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Utopic Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Utopic Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> The Utopic kernel has been rebased to the v3.16.2 upstream stable kernel
<ogasawara> and uploaded to the archive, ie. linux-3.16.0-14.20.  Please test
<ogasawara> and let us know your results.
<ogasawara> I'd also like to point out that our Utopic kernel freeze date is about 4
<ogasawara> weeks away on Thurs Oct 9.  Please don't wait until the last minute to
<ogasawara> submit patches needing to ship in the Utopic 14.10 release.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UtopicUnicorn/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara>   Mon Sep 22 - Utopic Final Beta Freeze (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Sep 25 - Utopic Final Beta (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Oct  9 - Utopic Kernel Freeze (~4 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Oct 16 - Utopic Final Freeze (~5 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Oct 23 - Utopic 14.10 Release (~6 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> http://people.canonical.com/~kernel/cve/pkg/ALL-linux.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Trusty/Precise/Lucid (bjf/henrix/kamal/arges)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today (Sept. 9):
<bjf>   *   Lucid - verification & testing
<bjf>   * Precise - verification & testing
<bjf>   *  Trusty - verification & testing
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 29-Aug through 20-Sep
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          29-Aug   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 31-Sep - 06-Sep   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 07-Sep - 13-Sep   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<bjf> 14-Sep - 20-Sep   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<bjf>  
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendar | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep  9 17:05:16 2014 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2014/ubuntu-meeting.2014-09-09-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<arges> jsalisbury: good meeting, way to go
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-09-11
<osama> hi
 * slangasek waves
<sil2100> o/
<jodh> \o
<mvo_> hi
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<slangasek> hmm where are those bots!
<slangasek> (anyone know where meetingology has gone?)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
<sil2100> huh
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko stgraber jodh bdmurray slangasek cjwatson xnox caribou infinity mvo bhuey sil2100 robru)
<slangasek> bdmurray caribou infinity bhuey jodh stgraber xnox slangasek cjwatson sil2100 barry mvo robru doko
<slangasek> bdmurray is at a conference today
<slangasek> caribou:
<caribou> * Work on MAAS packaging issue
<caribou> * DMB application for PPU on sosreport and makedumpfile - Awaiting email vote : no Quorum during the meeting
<caribou> * Some kernel basic debugging
<caribou> (done)
<caribou> * Work on apt offline queries with mvo's help
<robru> o/
<sil2100> robru: off to bed! ;)
<slangasek> infinity not here
<slangasek> bhuey not here
<slangasek> jodh:
<jodh> * upstart
<jodh>   - bug 1360208:
<ubottu> bug 1360208 in upstart "file watcher doesn't execute if combining ~ and * in the file description" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1360208
<jodh>     - Simplified code.
<jodh>     - Still working on tests.
<jodh>   - Fixed logrotate job bug in branch which ensures logrotate runs even
<jodh>     if its state file is corrupt.
<jodh>   - Testing 1.13.2 on Touch.
<jodh>   - Wrote testplan for utopic sync to Touch:
<jodh>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Process/TestPlans/upstart
<jodh> * systemd-shim:
<jodh>   - Wrote testplan for utopic sync to Touch:
<jodh>     Wrote https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Process/TestPlans/systemd-shim
<jodh> * MIR
<jodh>   - worked on bug 1349899.
<ubottu> bug 1349899 in sparql-wrapper-python (Ubuntu) "[MIR] new b-d's of rdflib (sparql-wrapper-python, isodate)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1349899
<jodh>     - raise debian bugs 760979 + 761177.
<ubottu> Debian bug 760979 in python-isodate "python-isodate: Version 0.5.0 available and debdiff for packaging changes." [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/760979
<jodh>   - sent a few questions+suggestions to the mir-team.
<jodh> * cgmanager
<jodh>   - Reviewing changes.
<jodh> â©©
<slangasek> stgraber:
<slangasek> I'll go ahead, and we'll circle back to stgraber
<slangasek>  * working on systemd-shim/cgmanager updates for the current systemd APIs, sponsoring into Debian; the Debian bug report has been reopened, hallyn and desrt investigating (Debian bug #756076)
<ubottu> Debian bug 756076 in systemd-shim "does not cleanup sessions when user logs out: No such interface 'org.freedesktop.systemd1.Scope'" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/756076
<slangasek>   * shepherded fix for bug #1365095 into ubuntu-rtm
<ubottu> bug 1365095 in systemd-shim (Ubuntu) "Greeter not asking for pin code in image 11 (krillin)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1365095
<slangasek>  * gave IBM feedback on debian/copyright file for java in multiverse
<slangasek>  * making plans to attend the cloud sprint in November
<slangasek>  * working to identify fat that can be trimmed from the phone rootfs - we could use better scripts for this!
<slangasek>  * reviewed more TI packages for the partner archive
<slangasek>  * still working on filling our open role - if you have good candidates you'd recommend, it's not too late for them to get their name in
<slangasek> (done)
<stgraber> slangasek: back, network problem...
<stgraber>  - Quite a bunch of internal meetings and working on internal projects and
<stgraber>    documentation, so not much I can share, sorry.
<stgraber>  - LXC code reviews and landing a bunch of patches.
<stgraber>  - Did some FFe reviews.
<stgraber>  - Update system-image server code to hash all the custom tarballs too.
<stgraber>  - Setup some extra custom tarballs on the RTM channels.
<stgraber>  - Setup a Windows8 UEFI environment for ubiquity testing (bug 1265192)
<ubottu> bug 1265192 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Trusty) "Install/reinstall wipes out all/other partitions" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1265192
<stgraber> (DONE)
<sil2100> slangasek: you probably should remove xnox from the list of attendees during shuffle ;)
<slangasek> sil2100: yeah, I accidentally cut'n'pasted from the wrong log
<slangasek> cjohnston:
<slangasek> sigh
<slangasek> cjwatson:
<cjwatson> Coordinated libav11 transition, and cleaned up a few other bits of noise in proposed-migration.
<cjwatson> Helped out with getting click signature support re-landed; lots of fighting with CI Train.  Fixed up a loose end in the security tests (lp:~cjwatson/qa-regression-testing/click-install-untrusted).
<cjwatson> Landed UbuntuKylin image changes to use their own seeds.
<cjwatson> Fixed Kubuntu Plasma image builds (by rebuilding kfilemetadata-kf5 against libav11 in their PPA).
<cjwatson> Somewhat caught up on miscellaneous reviews.
<cjwatson> Working on Debian #760148 (grub-mount hang); now have a test image from bug submitter, so need to sit down with a debugger and analyse it.
<ubottu> Debian bug 760148 in grub-common "grub-common: grub-mount hangs forever, trying to mount ext4 partition, causing 100% CPU load" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/760148
<cjwatson> Working on bug 1342858.  I think I have most of a fix, but need to test it locally before proposing a merge.
<ubottu> bug 1342858 in click (Ubuntu) "old click packages are not always cleaned out" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1342858
<cjwatson> TODO: Set up MATE image builds; start on putting the pieces together for package acquisition in click (allowing use of ubuntu-download-manager as a plugin, but also with native support for use elsewhere).
<cjwatson> ..
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> - Annual holidays from 8th till 10th of September - nothing done during that time, so short week
<sil2100> - Reading up e-mails
<sil2100> - CI Train maintenance and features:
<sil2100>   * Finishing sync: enhancements, testing and deployment
<sil2100>   * Fixing some PEP8 voilations in existing branches
<sil2100>   * Unit tests for sync features
<sil2100>   * Start work on some sync: corner-cases
<sil2100> - Reading up on PEP8 and pyflakes
<sil2100> - Documentation of new features and recommendations
<sil2100> - Patch Pilot work:
<sil2100>   * Check the libgksu bug-fix release MR, comment on the fixes needed
<sil2100>   * Checking libgksu FTBFS - Debian merge needed
<sil2100> (done)
<barry> phone: LP: #1365646.  LP: #1279970.  phone phlashing phun.  LP: #1365991 (discussions/triage); LP: #1367004; LP: #1283783; LP: #1367014; LP: #1367016 (actually, we won't need to MIR tox); LP: #1367028; LP: #1367041 (also won't need); LP: #1349832 (also won't need).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1365646 in Ubuntu system image "Top Crasher: /usr/sbin/system-image-dbus:RuntimeError:_download" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1365646
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1279970 in Ubuntu system image "s-i-dbus should exit on D-Bus method exceptions" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1279970
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1365991 in Ubuntu system image "CancelUpdate should emit a Cancelled signal" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1365991
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1367004 in python-gnupg (Ubuntu) "[MIR] python-gnupg" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1367004
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1283783 in python-gnupg (Ubuntu) "Error upgrading python3-gnupg" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1283783
<barry> debuntu: more git-dpm & git packaging experiments.  all results have been posted to debian-python@ and i am recommending git-dpm.  tox 1.7.2-1; core-cov 1.14.0-1 and debian bug #760583; syncpackage: lazr.config, tox, cov-core, lazr.delegates, lazr.smtptest, flufl.bounce
<ubottu> Debian bug 760583 in cov-core "cov-core should ship the generated .pth file to enable subprocess coverage tracking with nose-cov" [Normal,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/760583
<barry> other: python issue 16662 (load_tests in packages)
<barry> (done)
<mvo_> Busy week, gtimelog gave me a >60 line summary that I think is too
<mvo_> boring^Wlong. So the short version (unless someone wants the long
<mvo_> one in which case I'm happy to paste it too):
<mvo_> click: worked with Colin to land click 0.4.32.1 and the SDK with
<mvo_> re-enabled signed click support. This was a long and tricky landing,
<mvo_> thanks to Colin for his help with that. I also spend some time on the
<mvo_> SDK to push some drive-by fixes for issues I noticed during running
<mvo_> the (loooong) SDK testplan. Plus some (multiarch) work on using
<mvo_> ubuntu-sdk-libs-dev:$ARCH directly to build the chroot, pushed some
<mvo_> branches for this, should be ready now. And some work to identify if a
<mvo_> binary in a click package is using libs that are not in the SDK.
<mvo_> apt/python-apt: maintenance, some bugfixes and merges
<mvo_> Also worked onr software-properties (support for apt-add-repository
<mvo_> for ubuntu-rtm), squid-deb-proxy, unattended-upgrades and uploaded new
<mvo_> versions.
<mvo_> (done)
<robru> * Major ongoing overhaul of CI Train:
<robru>   - deleted several hundred lines of untested, *untestable* garbage glue code
<robru>   - implemented several forms of static code analysis, including pep8, pyflakes, and xml validation in order to detect problems before they get committed to trunk
<robru>   - gated MPs against lp:cupstream2distro on successful runs of the test suite
<robru>   - ripped out jinja2 (a templating engine) in favor of using python's builtin string.format, with new unit tests to confirm that it works as expected.
<robru>   - rewrote "setup-citrain" script almost from scratch, it used to be a weird big pile of spaghetti, with many functions passing many inscrutably-named arguments back and forth all over the place, into a single class with a few scrutibly-named instance attributes
<robru>   - many more enormous changes planned, but not yet implemented due to a couple days of illness
<robru> â
<mvo_> cjwatson: I'm curious about the plans for the click acquire, have you written up something somewhere about it?
<doko> - openjdk-7 update for utopic and trusty, backports for precise and lucid
<doko> - openjdk-8 update for utopic, backports for trusty and precise
<doko> - GCC update, Linaro GCC update
<doko> - NBS down to zero, looking at build regressions the other time
<doko> - started test rebuild for trusty/main
<doko> - valgrind update for ppc64el
<doko> - MIR mentoring, finished sparql-wrapper-python
<doko> - people pestering about the state of the nation^Warchive
<doko> (done)
<cjwatson> mvo_: it is but a glimmer in my eye
<jodh> doko: yes thanks for your help on the MIR!
<mvo_> :)
<cjwatson> mvo_: though I rather like the apt methods architecture for this and am tempted to steal it
<mvo_> cjwatson: yeah, I think that makes sense, we could even use their transports if the protocol is compatible
<cjwatson> interesting suggestion, will look into that
<cjwatson> (and I don't mean that in the British way)
<slangasek> any questions over status?
<slangasek> btw, one thing from my status was that I'm trying to identify packages that shouldn't be on the phone
<mvo_> cjwatson: ok, please let me know if you want to offload (some of) this work
<slangasek> I've thought of what I think would be a useful representation of this
<cjwatson> will do
<slangasek> and wonder if there's any prior art on it (so I don't go reimplementing things from scratch)
<cjwatson> slangasek: did I mention germinate's rdepends output?
<cjwatson> though I guess that's per-package
<slangasek> cjwatson: ah, I don't think you mentioned it was rdepends I should look at
<slangasek> so what I think I want is, for a set of packages in the image, to automatically identify individual dependencies which, if cut, would have the greatest impact on size reduction
<cjwatson> rdepends gives you the complete multiply-branched backtracked tree for each package
<slangasek> (greatest impact in terms of number of packages or size)
<cjwatson> slangasek: I would be very interested in having such a thing in germinate, and it *might* not be that hard
<cjwatson> it has most of the computation you need already, I think
<cjwatson> though, I'm not sure I'm volunteering to do it
<slangasek> ok, I'll look at integrating it there, thanks
<mvo_> python-apt can probably simulate that for you too
<slangasek> cjwatson: would we want to output this analysis by default?  I'm wary of slowing down germinate runs
<cjwatson> could just be controlled with an option; rdepends has such a thing (though on by default)
<slangasek> hmm, the other thing is that I care about this at the image level, not necessarily at the seed level
<cjwatson> for rdepends the slowness isn't the computation, but the I/O
<cjwatson> well, images map pretty closely onto a set of seeds
<cjwatson> analysing it for each seed would be a decent enough approximation, and you'd only have a few outputs to look at
<mvo_> slangasek: so what kind of input would you give the tool? would you want to run it for each (non-required) package on the image? each leave package? or by user choice?
<cjwatson> but if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit :)
<slangasek> cjwatson: a set, yes, but not an individual seed... I found trying to walk multiple seeds for the phone analysis annoying (particularly when trying to use the web output, which is the default)
<slangasek> anyway, that gives me some ideas... I'll run with it now, thanks :)
<cjwatson> yeah, I can see that
<slangasek> mvo_: I guess the input should be the set of all packages in the image, and the output would be the list of all packages with 0 or 1 reverse-dependencies on the image ordered by size impact
<slangasek> #topic AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<cjwatson> ideally I think you want small clusters as well, but I appreciate it gets non-trivial
<cjwatson> this feels like it ought to be a standard graph analysis problem
<cjwatson> weighted graph rather
 * slangasek nods
<cjwatson> maybe I should break out the brick^W^WIntroduction to Algorithms
<cjwatson> (hm, where did I leave my copy?  none of my bookshelves appear to be bowed in the middle)
<barry> ;)
<slangasek> sounds like that's it today then
<slangasek> #endmeeting
<slangasek> thanks all :)
<mvo_> thanks
<barry> thanks!
<caribou> thanks!
<jodh> thanks!
<stgraber> thanks!
<sil2100> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2014-09-12
<Mutaz> Hello all
<Mutaz> :-)
<Mutaz> Any one still alive
<Mutaz> :-P
<genii> Mutaz: This channel is used to hold official meetings in, when there are no meeting happening there is usually no one talking.
<Mutaz> Aha
<Mutaz> But I have a bun in my Ubuntu
<genii> Mutaz: If you have some problem with your Ubuntu, the place to ask about a solution would be the #ubuntu channel, and not here.
<Mutaz> 1.888371] Disabling IRQ #16
<Mutaz> Good bye
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-09-08
<kickinz1> o/
<caribou> o/
<smoser> o/
<gnuoy> o/
<thedac> o/
<smoser> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
<smoser> that says gnuoy will lead today.
<gnuoy> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep  8 16:00:02 2015 UTC.  The chair is gnuoy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<gnuoy> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<gnuoy> rharper collect team thoughts on whether we should have something like numad and other NUMA related placement stuff
<gnuoy> did that happen?
<matsubara> o/
<gnuoy> While we wait for rharper:
<gnuoy> smoser, rharper get other packages into cloud-image necessary for storage features.
<gnuoy> did that one happen?
<gnuoy> smoser ?
<smoser> we made some progress on it.
<smoser> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bcache-tools/+bug/1491111
<gnuoy> carry action forward to next meeting?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1491111 in bcache-tools (Ubuntu Trusty) "add bcache-tools to trusty archive" [High,Confirmed]
<gnuoy> sounds like it's in hand
<smoser> and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mdadm/+bug/1491102
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1491102 in mdadm (Ubuntu) "[FFE] add mdadm and lvm2 to cloud image" [Undecided,New]
<gnuoy> thanks smoser
<gnuoy> one more for rharper when he's about:
<gnuoy> rharper send email to TB about bcache-utils into trusty
<gnuoy> lets return to those later if we can
<gnuoy> #topic Wily Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Wily Development
<gnuoy> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<smoser> gnuoy, that one.. will probably be delayed.
<gnuoy> smoser, the sending of the email or getting bcache-utils into trusty?
<gnuoy> No dates for next week in the release schedule
<gnuoy> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-w-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<gnuoy> nothing new there by the looks of it
<gnuoy> 2 confirmed but unassigned ones
<gnuoy> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
<gnuoy> caribou, anything to declare?
<caribou> rsyslog 8.12 is merged
<caribou> FFE was OKed
<caribou> other than that I'm good
<gnuoy> excellent, thanks
<gnuoy> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (matsubara)
<matsubara> gnuoy, nothing to report
<gnuoy> tip top, ta
<gnuoy> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
<arges> gnuoy: nothing to report from kernel team
<arges> ..
<gnuoy> anyone got anything to throw at the kernel team?
<gnuoy> arges, ok, thanks
<gnuoy> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Upcoming Call For Papers
<gnuoy> Anyone calling for any papers?
<gnuoy> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Ubuntu Server Team Events
<gnuoy> Any noteworthy events on the horizon?
<gnuoy> is noteworthy one word? I assume it is. rbasak would know
<gnuoy> #topic Open Discussion
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Open Discussion
<gnuoy> Platform is open for scattergun contributions
<rbasak> I think it's one word.
<gnuoy> ta
<gnuoy> I'm going to close the open discussion unless anyone has anything to throw in?
<gnuoy> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Announce next meeting date, time and chair
<gnuoy> Same time next week with the ship in the safe hands of gaughen
<gnuoy> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep  8 16:13:02 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-09-08-16.00.moin.txt
<caribou> thanks gnuoy !
<gnuoy> My pleasure
<kickinz1> Thanks gnuoy!
<arges> o/
<cking> -ETOOEAGER
<kamal> eager, arges?  ;-)
<kamal> ha!
<arges> : )
<jsalisbury> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep  8 17:00:00 2015 UTC.  The chair is jsalisbury. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> ## This is the Ubuntu Kernel Team weekly status meeting.
<jsalisbury> ##
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/Meeting
<jsalisbury> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/ReleaseStatus/Utopic
<jsalisbury> # Meeting Etiquette
<jsalisbury> #
<jsalisbury> # NOTE: '..' indicates that you are finished with your input.
<jsalisbury> #       'o/' indicates you have something to add (please wait until you are recognized)
<jsalisbury> Roll Call for Ubuntu Kernel Weekly Status Meeting
<bjf> o/
<cking> o/ Zort!
<rtg> o/
<kamal> o/
<sforshee> o/
<ogasawara> o/
<arges> o/
<ppisati> o/
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Release Metrics and Incoming Bugs (jsalisbury)
<jsalisbury> Release metrics and incoming bug data can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kt-meeting.txt
<jsalisbury> That page is coming up blank, but it will be fixed today.
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Wily Development Kernel (ogasawara)
<ogasawara> We have rebased our Wily master branch to a 4.2 based kernel and have
<ogasawara> upoaded to the archive, ie 4.2.0-7.7.  We will continue to track 4.2 for
<ogasawara> the remainder of the 15.10 cycle.
<ogasawara> -----
<ogasawara> Important upcoming dates:
<ogasawara> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WilyWerewolf/ReleaseSchedule
<ogasawara> Thurs Sep 24 - Final Beta (~2 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Oct  8 - Kernel Freeze (~4 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Oct 15 - Final Freeze (~5 weeks away)
<ogasawara> Thurs Oct 22 - 15.10 Release (~6 weeks away)
<ogasawara> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: CVE's
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: CVE's
<jsalisbury> The current CVE status can be reviewed at the following link:
<jsalisbury> [LINK] http://kernel.ubuntu.com/reports/kernel-cves.html
<jsalisbury> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/lts-utopic/Vivid (bjf)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Status: Stable, Security, and Bugfix Kernel Updates - Precise/Trusty/lts-utopic/Vivid (bjf)
<bjf> Status for the main kernels, until today:
<bjf>   *     Precise - Kernel Build & Prep
<bjf>   *      Trusty - Kernel Build & Prep
<bjf>   *  lts-Utopic - Kernel Build & Prep
<bjf>   *      Vivid  - Kernel Build & Prep
<bjf>  
<bjf> Current opened tracking bugs details:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/kernel-sru-workflow.html
<bjf> For SRUs, SRU report is a good source of information:
<bjf>   * http://kernel.ubuntu.com/sru/sru-report.html
<bjf>  
<bjf>  
<bjf> Schedule:
<bjf>  
<bjf> cycle: 04-Sep through 26-Sep
<bjf> ====================================================================
<bjf>          04-Sep   Last day for kernel commits for this cycle
<bjf> 06-Sep - 12-Sep   Kernel prep week.
<bjf> 13-Sep - 19-Sep   Bug verification & Regression testing.
<bjf> 20-Sep - 26-Sep   Regression testing & Release to -updates.
<bjf> ..
<jsalisbury> [TOPIC] Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Open Discussion or Questions? Raise your hand to be recognized (o/)
<jsalisbury> Thanks everyone
<jsalisbury> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep  8 17:03:39 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-09-08-17.00.moin.txt
<kamal> thanks jsalisbury
<cking> ditto
#ubuntu-meeting 2015-09-10
<cyphermox> o/
<pitti> o/
<robru> \o
<caribou> o/
<tdaitx> \o
<infinity> \o/
<barry> o>-<
 * ogra_ watches the yoga group 
 * slangasek waves
<slangasek> ogra_: it's capoeira this week
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Sep 10 15:03:46 2015 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<ogra_> oh, did MacSlow join foudations ?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e barry doko bdmurray slangasek caribou infinity sil2100 robru cyphermox pitti tdaitx)
<slangasek> bdmurray infinity slangasek cyphermox barry caribou doko tdaitx sil2100 robru pitti
<bdmurray> nvestigation into retracer issues and queue sizes
<bdmurray> modifed the retracers to not try to get the core for a crash that has already been retraced
<bdmurray> updated retracer.py not to log the swift token as it is noisy in the logs
<bdmurray> wrote code to analyze successfully retraced armhf OOPSes to find buckets w/o bugs (to then manually open bugs)
<bdmurray> worked on apport bug 1490030 (apport hook for shim-signed)
<ubottu> bug 1490030 in shim-signed (Ubuntu) "shim-signed should include an apport hook applying to shim and shim-signed source packages" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1490030
<bdmurray> modified merges.ubuntu.com reports not to show blacklisted packages
<bdmurray> â done
<infinity> - Kernel SRU work
<infinity> - Meetings, interviews, meetings, and more meetings
<infinity> - Championed PPA deletion in the LP meeting for robru, should get that this cycle
<infinity> - Fleshed out s390x in Launchpad plans in the same meeting
<infinity> - Finally landed mirror fix to avoid Translations hash sum mismatches
<infinity> - More work on glibc in both Debian and Ubuntu
<infinity> - Bootstrapping s390x
<infinity> (done)
<barry> infinity: yay! re: mirror fix
<infinity> Is mumble explodey for anyone else, or is it just me?
<barry> infinity: seems ok
<infinity> Weird.  It connects me, shows no channels, and eventually kicks me out again.
<slangasek>  * short week, Labor Day holiday
<slangasek>  * interviewing continues for the open generalist role
<slangasek>  * we are now also hiring for a dedicated zSeries engineer: https://ldd.tbe.taleo.net/ldd01/ats/careers/requisition.jsp?org=CANONICAL&cws=1&rid=1023
<slangasek>  * most of the week spent either interviewing or in planning meetings for s390x
<slangasek>  * also some discussions about golang for its in-progress MIR
<slangasek> (done)
<slangasek>  * spent some time looking at component-mismatches, which is quite lengthy right now - particularly for packages needing demotion, seems this is a lot harder to keep clean ever since -proposed happened
<doko> I always start with component-mismatches-proposed
<slangasek> cyphermox:
<cyphermox>  - Monday was a national holiday.
<cyphermox>  - upload ubiquity 2.21.28
<cyphermox>  - fix NM bugs blocking autopkgtests
<cyphermox>  - skiboot SRU to vivid
<cyphermox>  - sponsored multipath bug fix for LP: #1489379 (libchecktur w/ -fexceptions)
<cyphermox>  - some debugging netcfg for setting the hostname in preseeded installs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1489379 in multipath-tools (Ubuntu) "LTE: ISST:leeklp4 no mpath choices for install ubuntu 15.10" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1489379
<cyphermox>  - upload console-setup update to get dracut installable.
<cyphermox>  - reviewed/sponsored libreoffice, libreoffice-l10n, writer2latex, nlpsolver.
<cyphermox>  - setting up my environment for fwupdate testing
<cyphermox>    - blocked on firmware availability.
<cyphermox> (done)
<barry> short week due to usa holiday
<barry> lots more py35 transition work.  down to 9 legit ftbfs in primary flavor seeds (an additional 4-5 ftbfs in all other seeds).  see email to ubuntu-devel@ for details (several fixes uploaded since then).  bugs filed on all packages.
<barry> python-netaddr 0.17.7-1; LP: #1492359; python-testtools 1.4.0-0ubuntu2; LP: #1352900
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1492359 in genshi (Ubuntu) "genshi FTBFS with Python 3.5 in Wily" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1492359
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1352900 in pypy (Ubuntu) "[MIR] pypy" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1352900
<barry> interviews, etc.
<barry> --done--
 * infinity gives up on mumble.
<slangasek> caribou:
<caribou> Bugfix:
<caribou>  - lucid -> precise -> trusty upgrade issue
<caribou>    * Unbootable system after upgrade (LP: #1491894)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1491894 in grub2 (Ubuntu Trusty) "lucid to precise to trusty upgrade may leave system unbootable" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1491894
<caribou>      Able to reproduce, working on a fix
<caribou> â Done
<doko> - looking at the ruby mess. ruby2.2 was added as supported this cycle, but nobody rebuilt packages. done that.
<doko> - made ruby-rspec build by dropping most of the test dependencies (universe)
<doko> - ruby fixing, syncing, cursing ...
<doko> - python3.5 rc3
<doko> - openjdk-7, openjdk-8, openjdk-9 updates
<doko> - MIRs, ruby package removals, syncs, merges, fix ftbfs's
<doko> - s390x cross toolchains
<doko> - s390x meeting
<doko> - some more GCC triggered transitions nbs is clean again, update_output.txt as well.
<doko> - started to re-enable pypy-* packages.
<doko> (done)
<tdaitx> * Short week, holiday on Monday (2015-09-07)
<tdaitx> Current/Past
<tdaitx> - Investigated a few
<tdaitx> - Provided pull requests for JRuby (https://github.com/jruby/jruby/pull/3309 and https://github.com/jruby/jruby/pull/3310) to fix mspec failure (LP: #1491526)
<tdaitx> - Refreshed patch to include dep3 info (Debian #794190)
<tdaitx> - Found regression on JDK7 TLS 1.2 backports, investigating cause (LP: #1482924)
<tdaitx> Next steps
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1491526 in jruby (Ubuntu) "jruby FTBFS when running mspec tests" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1491526
<tdaitx> - Refactor JRuby 3310 pull request
<tdaitx> - Fix JDK TLS 1.2 regression
<tdaitx> - Guarantee that local JCK 7 tests are running fine for trusty, then move those to canonistack
<tdaitx> - Setup and use umt schroots, move them to canonistack
<ubottu> Debian bug 794190 in quota "quota FTBFS on wily proposed due to wrong LDFLAGS usage" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/794190
<tdaitx> Waiting/On hold
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1482924 in openjdk-7 (Ubuntu) "Regressions due to USN-2696-1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1482924
<tdaitx> - trust-store (universe) blocks pulseaudio (main); found MIR request but I'm unable to change status, left a comment but no answer so far (LP: #1338587)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1338587 in trust-store (Ubuntu) "[MIR] trust-store" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1338587
<tdaitx> (done)
<robru> (short week with labour day)
<robru> lp:cupstream2distro
<robru>  - set the request creator's name in debian/changelog rather than using ci train bot name.
<robru>  - call checkUpload to enforce correct package upload permissions, ending honor system that used to be in place
<robru>  - eliminated the need to ever reconfigure a silo by sourcing info directly from bileto (this was a massive architectural shift that took a bunch of work which is why this list is really short) (also this isn't in production yet)
<robru> (done)
<pitti> sil2100 is on vac
<pitti> systemd:
<pitti>  - integrate networkd with the distro (resolvconf, if-*.d hooks) and document how to enable it (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-w-networkd-vs-ifupdown), announce to u-devel@
<pitti>  - fix various regressions in trunk spotted by our daily(ish) upstream package builds, provide 226 in PPA for testing
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti>  - Add fallback for dealing with build profiles with trusty's libdpkg-perl, to fix linux tests
<pitti>  - Fix armhf/ppc64el autopkgtest runners to pull from ftpmaster.internal
<pitti>  - Discuss kernel version reporting in tests with apw
<pitti> misc:
<pitti>  - Build new 15.04 langpacks with libusermetrics (#1484882)
<pitti>  - Investigate NetworkManager test regressions; make some adjustments, file #1492126 and #1492168 for root causes
<pitti>  - Some travel preps for the snappy sprint
<pitti>  - usual daily -proposed cleanup/unblocking/investigations
<pitti> [END]
<barry> pitti: love the new summary at the end of adt-run
<pitti> barry: me too! nice idea
<pitti> barry: one of these 5 s improvements :)
<barry> pitti: :)
<slangasek> tdaitx: "unable to change status" - so we need to get you bug privileges still?
<tdaitx> slangasek, possibly, I was not sure if I should have them already or just after I got in as a core dev
<slangasek> tdaitx: there's a separate process for getting bug triaging privileges that doesn't require you to be an Ubuntu dev; bdmurray probably has the link handy :)
<infinity> I don't see why that MIR would need its status changed?
<slangasek> tdaitx: though for MIR bugs, note that the bug is a process bug so you probably don't need to change its state anyway, the MIR team does this
<bdmurray> tdaitx: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl
<bdmurray> "Requirement 4 can be waived if you are an upstream developer or bug triager or if a Ubuntu developer vouches for you (your triaging ability)."
<slangasek> any other questions over status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> pitti, bdmurray: there's a bug escalated by the phone team about apport that I'd like to get your input on
<slangasek> bug #1278780
<ubottu> bug 1278780 in apport (Ubuntu) "apport takes too long to write crash report, appears to lock up phone" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1278780
<pitti> slangasek: I've seen it; you summarized it well
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> apart from the nice level tweakage I'm afraid I don't have any othe magic sauce to pour over this, though
<infinity> tdaitx: For MIRs of this nature specifically, if something has been in main in the past and fell out again (because it was unseeded or nothing depended on it anymore), just poke an archive admin with a pointer to the old bug/status, and we can re-promote it (done now).
<slangasek> I think the short term plan is that crash reporting will be disabled on the phone by default until they can give us something more fine-grained for blacklisting
<pitti> high nice level is better for background processes and worse for foreground, so maybe we should optimize for the latter
<pitti> slangasek: but TBH I doubt that it'll make a noticeable difference
<pitti> it might suck a tad less, but it'd still suck
<slangasek> pitti: would you be ok with dropping the os.nice() call anyway, to see if it does make a difference?
<pitti> slangasek: yes, I'm fine with that; I'd just not claim that this would fix the bug
<doko> tdaitx, no need to redo the MIR, it already was approved. promoted that
<slangasek> and am I right that when the unity system compositor is what crashes, the kernel has to dump all the mapped memory, including the graphics buffers?
<tdaitx> bdmurray, slangasek yeah, I have that page saved, I am in the bug squad and was collecting additional triaging experience before I sent out my request to join bug control
<bdmurray> Disabling by default seems a bit drastic to me. Given pitti's changes to apport, which has resulted in more crashes being reported, have there actually been more reports complaints re "appears to lock up phone"
<pitti> slangasek: I'm less sure about that (not famiilar with the innards of core dumps), but it seems likely
<slangasek> bdmurray: yes, there have
<slangasek> bdmurray: and it's a grave issue, including potentially a regulatory one if the phone is blocked and you can't make an emergency call
<barry> on a different note, is anybody here a libunity expert (or know one)?
<bdmurray> slangasek: alrighty
<infinity> slangasek: That would certainly have been true in the old skool Xorg days with an mmapped /dev/mem, can't say how unity8/mir behave in that regard, but it seems likely.
<slangasek> bdmurray: I'm going to continue pressing the phone team for a fine-grained blacklist so that we can do something better than disabling it by default, but I don't think we should block on this
<bdmurray> it looks like Laney has been working on the ability to turn on and off crash reporting
<slangasek> infinity, pitti: what if the system compositor had a custom SIGSEGV handler to unmap the video buffers and reraise the signal?
<slangasek> bdmurray: there's a toggle for it in the UI that apparently doesn't work right currently
<pitti> slangasek: that would certainly be very helpful
<slangasek> pitti: "helpful" - but would it be sane? :)
<infinity> "maybe".
<bdmurray> slangasek: right, he's made some changes to whoopsie-preferences today see bug 1437633
<ubottu> bug 1437633 in Canonical System Image "Choosing not to report crashes and errors setting reverts" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1437633
<pitti> slangasek: for most processes it shouldn't take that long, supposedly not manyu programs are handling huge gfx buffers
<infinity> Manipulating memory after a crash is always iffy.
<pitti> slangasek: absolutely, yes
<infinity> We have such features intentionally disabled in glibc because it's pretty lolz to operate on pointers that might be pointing to another universe.
<pitti> slangasek: it's dramatically unlikely that a stack trace goes "through" the framebuffer, there should be no code there
<pitti> slangasek: and in the end the stack trace is all that we keep anyway for a successful retrace
<slangasek> bdmurray: right, that's the other bug that pmcgowan mentioned
<pitti> slangasek: so freeing data can only be helpful
<slangasek> pitti, bdmurray: so it seems at least worth suggesting this to the unity team
<infinity> pitti: If the crash is in shader magic or something, it could absolutely be running rampant through video memory.
<slangasek> infinity: would that show on the process stack?
<pitti> infinity: well, we can't dump GPU code anyway, can we/
<pitti> ?
<infinity> slangasek: Hrm.  Probably not, I suppose.  Would just be an opaque call from libgl.  Probably.
<infinity> I'm a bit rusty on all of that, it's been a decade since I lived with daniels.
<pitti> I mean, if we have the choice between "no bugs for unity" vs. "a few corner cases have broken stack traces", the former sounds much more desirable
<pitti> err, the latter
<slangasek> ok, I'll suggest this then, thanks
<pitti> (not that unity having no bugs wouldn't be desirable..)
<slangasek> (I'm not sure how much of the process's memory will actually be video buffers, but it's worth looking at)
<pitti> slangasek: are you aware of the "gcore" tool?
<slangasek> no
<infinity> pitti: We can dump GPU code, but it would be an entirely different trace, via a callback to the kms driver or libgl.
<pitti> slangasek: quite handy for doing such comparisons without acutally having to crash your program
<infinity> pitti: See all the Intel GPU vomit one gets in dmesg. :P
<slangasek> pitti: ah nice
<pitti> infinity: right, I thought X (or kernel or whatever) has some special apport hooks for that
<infinity> pitti: X does, yes.
<pitti> slangasek: so one could do gcore / do something to trigger video memory free / gcore again / compare
<infinity> pitti: Mir probably wants the same ones.
<slangasek> pitti: pmap might also give us the info we need for this
<slangasek> infinity: if the phone were using KMS, sure ;)
<slangasek> (yes eventually we want it for the desktop if we don't have it there already)
<bdmurray> its probably worth noting that fixing bug 1437633 won't actually stop apport from creating crash reports
<ubottu> bug 1437633 in Canonical System Image "Choosing not to report crashes and errors setting reverts" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1437633
<slangasek> ah because that's a setting for reporting crashes
<slangasek> bdmurray: thanks for catching that
<bdmurray> bug 1389407 might be better
<slangasek> so really we're looking at an upstart override or something here
<ubottu> bug 1389407 in ubuntu-system-settings (Ubuntu RTM) "choosing not to report "app crashes and errors" leaves apport and whoopsie running" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1389407
<slangasek> right
<slangasek> bdmurray: thanks
<slangasek> anything else?
<pitti> slangasek: bug updated
<slangasek> going....
<slangasek> going...
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Sep 10 15:36:53 2015 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2015/ubuntu-meeting.2015-09-10-15.03.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, everyone!
<caribou> thanks!
<barry> thanks!
<tdaitx> thanks!
<pitti> thanks everyone!
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-09-12
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep 12 16:31:08 2016 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> hi
<jdstrand> last week I got through several review tools updates
<jdstrand> I helped with various high priority snappy issues: namespace sharing, browser-support updates, snap run/snap-confine/snap-exec failures, discussions on snap declaratons, etc
<jdstrand> this week I plan to pick up the docker interface work, continue helping with namespace sharing and then pickup dbus-app again
<jdstrand> I suspect that will consume my week, but if not, I'll move down the list
<jdstrand> that's it from me
<mdeslaur> I'm in the happy place this week
<mdeslaur> I have to play email ketchup today
<mdeslaur> I'm working on a webkit2gtk update
<mdeslaur> since the update I prepared before going on vacation had a regression
<mdeslaur> (I didn't have time to release it)
<mdeslaur> I'm also working on mysql updates
<mdeslaur> and will go down the CVE list, as usual
<mdeslaur> that's it, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm on community this week
<sbeattie> I'm finishing up openjdk-6 testing
<sbeattie> I need to comment on the kernel team's proposed livepatch announcement template
<sbeattie> I need to do some apparmor review
<sbeattie> And I'll pick up another update this week
<sbeattie> that's probably my week. tyhicks?
<tyhicks> sbeattie: can we consider the PIE work to be done?
<sbeattie> Yeah, mostly.
<tyhicks>  \o/
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I've been working on some snap-confine PR reviews
<tyhicks> then I need to get back to bringing unix domain socket mediation to 14.04 for snappy
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<tyhicks> he may not be around yet
<tyhicks> sarnold: go ahead
<sarnold> I'm on cve triage this week
<sarnold> also doing MIR reviews
<sarnold> it'd be nice to not starve apparmor reviews too, but .. the patch series there is huge. :/ I just got to thinking that cboltz's huge rule patchset cleanujp would be nice to have in yaketty, what with him being our best bet for tools support..
<tyhicks> it would be a nice thing to have but I don't think it'll end up happening
<sarnold> but the ffe and so on doesn't really sound like fun either, assuming that the patches look good
<tyhicks> those are a lot of patches to land and, as you point out, the ffe won't be trivial
<sarnold> is it worth branching off apparmor -now-?
<tyhicks> cutting a release?
<sarnold> yeah
<tyhicks> tomorrow is the monthly apparmor meeting, right?
<sarnold> it doesn't have to be decided now, it's mostly hypothetical until we review the 40-ish patches :)
<sarnold> anyway that's me
<tyhicks> the meeting should be tomorrow so I think we ought to discuss it there
<tyhicks> thanks sarnold
<tyhicks> Chris is out
<tyhicks> go ahead, ratliff
<ratliff> I prepared updates for gdk-pixbuf and python-imaging last week and got them to the 1 yard line.
<ratliff> Now I need to push them over the goal.
<ratliff> I am also doing some sprint planning work and need to follow up on a percona task from the last sprint.
<ratliff> I'll do bug triage this week.
<ratliff> and back to you tyhicks
<tyhicks> oh, ha
<tyhicks> I said that I'm in the happy place for some reason
<tyhicks> I'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> wishful thinking? :)
<tyhicks> very much so
<ratliff> I'm fine with swapping if you want
<tyhicks> :)
<tyhicks> ratliff: no need to swap, I think the sprint planning will help me out more than bug triage
<tyhicks> jjohansen: hey - go ahead now
<jjohansen> oky
<jjohansen> so I have a few more revisions for little things on the stacking kernel to make, but its looking good and I haven't heard back any complaints.
<tyhicks> great to hear :)
<jjohansen> I need to finish up with the 4.8 port for the kt
<jjohansen> I then can get back to finishing up with gconf
<tyhicks> sounds like a nice week
<jjohansen> and it seems something to do with an upstream apparmor meeting
<jjohansen> :)
<tyhicks> :)
<jjohansen> that will eat the whole week so I won't even pretend I am going to get to the upstreaming work
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/blueman.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/liblivemedia.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/svn-workbench.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/ruby-rest-client.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/efl.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ratliff: Thanks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep 12 16:53:54 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-09-12-16.31.moin.txt
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks!
<mdeslaur> thanks meetingology
<ratliff> thanks, tyhicks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<sbeattie> tyhicks: thanks!
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
<cpaelzer> o/ ?
<BenC> Trying to see if we have qurom for DMB meeting.
<BenC> Currently I count 2 definite with 1 possible and I donât think that will suffice.
<bdmurray> o/
<BenC> Is 5 qurom?
<cpaelzer> BenC: sure, I just was unsure if I mistaken the UTC conversion that is why I started with a shy "o/ ?"
<bdmurray> There are 7 of us so 4 is.
<rbasak> We need 4 for quorum.
<BenC> Ah, I counted "wrap"
<BenC> micahg: ?
<micahg> o/
<BenC> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep 12 19:08:01 2016 UTC.  The chair is BenC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<BenC> Sorry, second time chairing, so reading mootbot howto as I go :)
<BenC> #meetingtopic Ubuntu Membershop Board Meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Membershop Board Meeting | Current topic:
<BenC> #topic Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | Ubuntu Membershop Board Meeting | Current topic: Package Set/Per Package Uploader Applications
<BenC> #subtopic Nicholas Skaggs and (Juju Delegated Team)
<BenC> balloons: ping
<balloons> o/
<BenC> Great, thanks for joining us.
<BenC> I probably should have started with the action items, but here we are (Iâll revisit that after this application)
<BenC> balloons: Tell us about your application for PPA, please.
<balloons> Sure thing. So, I've been on a mission to improve juju's upstream packaging and distro involvement. My desire has been to improve the juju and related packages, and improve the relationship between upstream and distro
<balloons> As part of that desire, I'm seeking today the rights to upload the juju packages, and to inquire to form a delegated team surrounding there maintanence.
<balloons> The packages themselves can be demanding and hard to fit within the distro model at times. I've been appreciative of the release and SRU teams help in crafting solutions that work for everyone.
<BenC> balloons: What would you say has been the biggest challenge for you not having PPA rights for juju at this point?
<balloons> The biggest challenge is trying to ensure timely updates. As an upstream, we've been doing weekly releases which we like to SRU as well as doing regular uploads into yakkety. For this I have to seek sponsorship, which can sometimes be hard to get multiple uploads for as juju has worked through growing pains
<BenC> How many packages does juju include directly?
<BenC> I see 6 in the Juju Delegated Team request. Is that all
<balloons> There's 2 direct source packages. One for juju2 and one for juju itself
<balloons> in addition, there are some supporting packages which I included in the request as they exist for juju, aka, juju-mongodb
<balloons> I believe I've named all the packages for which juju is the direct upstream or primary / sole consumer
<BenC> Does anyone else have questions for balloons?
<rbasak> Yes
<rbasak> Sorry, having some difficulty phrasing this.
<rbasak> You understand my concerns from the email thread I think.
<balloons> Yes, for those who want more background, the thread on devel-permissions has a good exchange between rbasak and myself
<BenC> balloons: Can you summarize the concerns for the rest of us, please?
<BenC> (and for the meeting log)
<balloons> My goal in this request is to help juju be a better citizen within the distro. I think we've certainly come along since I started just before the xenial release
<rbasak> Thanks, I'll work on my question.
<balloons> sure. In summary rbasak is concerned about granting someone a ppu for a package such as juju, given his experience in the difficulty of packaging. I would agree that juju has some
<balloons> special and invovled needs at times. It's important that whomever uploads these packages understands all of the implications.
<BenC> Thanks
 * bdmurray is reading the email thread
<rbasak> From my perspective, on each issue that has come up, there have been two sides. There's the easy way forward (let's call that A), and there's the other way (let's call this B) that involves seeing past that at the bigger picture, which incorporates things that Debian, Ubuntu and other distributions have done things. Balancing A and B, or finding something in the middle is the challenge I think.
<balloons> For example, as a go package the build-dependencies are thirdparty embeds
<rbasak> Right. So A is embedding, and B is something different, like breaking out into separate source packages perhaps.
<rbasak> A balance in the middle might be Built-Using to help address some of the reasons we traditionally did B and not A.
<balloons> Juju also has a standing SRU policy exemption and includes major changes and features within an SRU as needed
<balloons> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JujuUpdates
<rbasak> Can you give us an example of where you have fought for B's corner, or in finding an appropriate compromise, rather than folding and just doing A?
<rbasak> (I would include things like amending the proposal to meet some implicit benefits in doing B, rather than just doing B for the sake of it)
<balloons> rbasak, absolutely. So for the release of xenial, Jamie et la wanted to see more build dependencies packaged and properly listed within the source package. While we didn't quite get all of them, I was able to build juju and include everything that already existed in main. The xenial package reflects this
<balloons> I also packaged the rest with plans to include them and work on them during the yakkety cycle
<rbasak> We already had some embedded, and some pulled out, right? So the packaging already was capable of both and you moved more over to one side?
<balloons> I would also point out the juju-1-default package as an example. Juju itself wanted to merely own /usr/bin/juju, however that would break the upgrade story for users on trusty. With my distro and ubuntu hat on, it was important for me to come allow for a smooth upgrade path for those users, while still allowing for juju-2 to be the default upon installation.
<balloons> rbasak, yes. I moved more over to b, breaking it out so that the shared depends between things like snappy, lxd, and juju can all be maintained in a single package
<balloons> The tension over owning /usr/bin/juju was solved by the creation of the juju-1-default package which adds a diversion to all juju-1 to own /usr/bin/juju. I am thankful to the release team for their guidance on ensuring a good LTS experience for users.
<rbasak> What role did you play in that second example? I understand that you did the work, but who drove that request? Who started off with pointing out that conflict?
<bdmurray> Were the release team members providing guidance asked to comment on your application?
<balloons> I pushed for the creation of a solutin, as well as doing the work to make it happen
<rbasak> Who started off with pointing out that conflict?
<balloons> pitti and slangasek especially helped and guided me on that. stgraber also helped
<balloons> I understood the issue from my background in testing and the community; going from LTS to LTS
<balloons> the idea to make it a diversion over something like update-alternatives was guided by their advic
<balloons> Additionally, I would point out the 32-bit build failures that juju has had, which has slowed down progress on trying to land juju with the distro. It's been my goal to solve issues like this with solutions that work for both sides.
<rbasak> Let me be clear as to why I'm asking this question.
<balloons> From a juju side, we want to land and support 64-bit. So when powerpc fails, I was asked to just remove the build. pitti was helpful in pointing out the porters boxes, and i worked to get a fix so powerpc continued to build. I think I've straddled the line for both sides several times, and I've been fair in accomadating the distro as much as possible
<rbasak> What I don't want is a "let's try and slip this past" upload. What I do want is an uploader who seeks consensus from the appropriate people, for example the release team or TB, *before* an upload, for anything controversial.
<rbasak> That is - if somebody on the release team, TB or SRU team has a reason to object after seeing an upload, the uploader is doing something wrong, even if the decision is to allow it. Because the uploader did not have consensus before the upload.
<balloons> I think historically juju has struggled with being a good upstream for distro because they've lacked perspective as well as rights to upload. My request is really stemming from both these things. I think juju is now a better upstream, and with rights, could improve even further
<balloons> rbasak, I agree. And I think the answer once a team fails on "slipping one past" the release team is to stop uploading and participating. I don't think that's a good outcome either
<rbasak> I don't think your answer above really helps me with this perspective. I can see that you understood the issue and that you were guided to fix it.
<balloons> rbasak, I think I've shown I seek consensus before uploading. I've actively tried to solve all of juju's issues
<balloons> My request isn't in hopes I no longer have to talk to anyway, but rather, to allow me to be even more timely with updates and a more active contributor
<rbasak> To be clear, most of my bias here isn't because of anything you've done; it's because I know the package well, and I know what it involves in packaging.
<balloons> rbasak, I'm very happy you are taking an active role in discussing this. I welcome it. I know you have history in the package
<bdmurray> balloons: Did you see my question?
<rbasak> However, I feel that you're being evasive - both here and in #ubuntu-devel earlier. And I've seen at least one other person say that in public.
<cjwatson> If you're referring to my comment earlier, FWIW I think balloons did address it to my satisfaction in the conversation that followed.
<balloons> rbasak, I want you to feel comfortable and understand. What further detail can I provide?
<balloons> bdmurray, no I'm sorry. I did ask slangasek to comment, and I see pitti did add a comment
<balloons> rbasak, are you concerned that giving rights to these packages means juju will revert to uploading things that shouldn't land?
<rbasak> balloons: correct. I don't think that's restricted to just you, either, to be clear.
<rbasak> Or even you at all.
<balloons> rbasak, I can completely understand the sentiment. As I spoke about earlier, I think there's been tension here in the past. Really my goal has been to remove this tension and make juju a much better upstream. I think there's been lots of progress made, and I'd like to continue it and do more
<rbasak> cjwatson: noted, thanks.
<balloons> Does the inclusion of mwhudson and stokachu help alleviate those concerns?
<rbasak> From my perspective, the team itself makes little difference to me. Any team can form without the involvement of the DMB. It's just a question of the set of people who can upload, and their inclusion doesn't change that.
<balloons> rbasak, ack
<balloons> is this an easier consideration as a singular ppu?
<balloons> and does anyone else have questions I might be able to answer?
<rbasak> That's effectively how I see the request already anyway.
<bdmurray> Right, I think the discussion is about balloons having PPU upload rights for the identified juju packages.
<rbasak> Right - whether a packageset or not is just the mechanism.
<BenC> Weâre approaching 45 minutes on this subtopicâ¦letâs get some final comments/questions, please.
<rbasak> Any thoughts on PPU with the caveat that PPU uploaders are to upload minor upstream updates and bugfixes only?
<rbasak> Or is that unhelpful?
<BenC> Iâd agree to only using PPU for minor fixes and security updates, and ask that it not be used for major versions and changes to the packages.
<rbasak> FWIW, right now I'm hovering around a +0. I've expressed my concerns, but I'd like to hear others' opinions - other DMB members and other experienced Ubuntu devs.
<micahg> I'm not sure we've ever done something like that before, if it's just minor updates, it should be trivial to sponsor
<stokachu> The problem is Juju is still in beta, so have him as a minor/bugfix only doesn't really help here
<balloons> having some rights is helpful. My feedback is that I trust I've shown to be a good steward. If I haven't, I don't deserve any rights. And if I have, why shouldn't I have full trust?
<rbasak> Right now I've not really had any feedback on my concerns from other experienced Ubuntu devs, so I feel that I'm in a bit of a vacuum.
<BenC> Iâm ok with major updates in development releases, but major updates for SRU-exceptions seems a bit over-reaching.
<BenC> Thatâs just me.
<BenC> Iâm also not familiar with jujuâs development cycles and packaging.
<rbasak> So without that I don't feel that I@m ready to make up my mind either way.
<rbasak> That's all from me I think.
<balloons> BenC, the sru-exception is stemming from the need to keep juju in-line with upstream providers. There was quite a bit of discussion with the TB who helped formulate and grant the exception
<BenC> balloons: But they granted that exception prior to your request for PPU, so we have to take that into account.
<bdmurray> Given rbasak's familiarity with the package I'd defer to his judgement.  If there were more endorsements from the people balloons has worked with I'd feel better.
<balloons> BenC, absolutely. I want everyone to understand this isn't just an ordinary package
<bdmurray> balloons: I think part of rbasak's concern is exactly because it isn't an ordinary package.
<balloons> basically it's external dependencies mean juju has to update to stay in line, or stop working. That means you have to exercise care as you have privileges to upload to an LTS
<BenC> Iâd agree with bdmurray. Iâm afraid that this will require more research on my end to understand all of this, and I donât feel comfortable with my level of knowledge at this point.
<balloons> my argument is that historically this has been problematic for everyone. My application represents a legitimate request on my part to try and make things better, as well as provide the distro with an upstream face and member. I hoped to include a team in the request in order to demonstrate my understanding that this needs care
<balloons> I appreciate everyone's time and thoughts
<stokachu> rbasak: so can we count on you to help with the load of getting these packages uploaded?
<rbasak> It sounds like we're not comfortable with a +1, though we can hold a vote to verify that. But in that case, I think it would be fair to balloons to enumerate next steps.
<bdmurray> stokachu: really?
<cjwatson> external dependencies> reminded of https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2009-March/000550.html
<BenC> balloons: We appreciate everything youâre doing. I, for one, feel your pain in championing a juju. We want you and juju to succeed.
<stokachu> bdmurray: we're stretched thin as it is
<micahg> +1 to BenC's statement
<rbasak> stokachu: well, if the decision were to be "sorry, this package is too complex for a packageset, needs core dev level of experience only please", then that would be reasonable I think. Not having enough core devs is not my DMB-hat problem.
<stokachu> it's a reasonable request
<rbasak> And to be clear, balloons' request is entirely reasonable.
<stokachu> ok i just don't see any other solutions to help alleviate the bottleneck
<bdmurray> stokachu: I interpreted your original statement to mean there'd be more work for rbasak or us if we don't approve the request.
<BenC> I actually would be fine with balloons having PPU if I understand the history of the packages a bit. So, for me to change my mind, alll I need is a history lesson.
<stokachu> bdmurray: im merely looking for alternate solutions
<bdmurray> Maybe we should defer the vote for two weeks then?
<BenC> Thatâs what Iâm thinking as well.
<rbasak> I'd also be happy to send this up to the TB, if we can't reach a decision (or if we -1 it).
<BenC> balloons: Would you be ok with us defering a vote until you can provide us more detail into the nuances of jujuâs packaging history, including the details of the TB exception?
<bdmurray> balloons: Perhaps you could get some more endorsements in the mean time?
<balloons> Would we like to discuss over mail?
<rbasak> I do appreciate the need here. I'd like to be able to give a path forward without undue delay.
<rbasak> CoC, etc.
<balloons> I'm happy to enumerate, and I don't want anyone to feel rushed in this.
<balloons> and BenC, absolutely. I think that's a good solution. It's hard to fill everyone in during a short IRC meeting
<BenC> Ok, unless someone wants a vote, Iâll just call this defered and action balloons to provide more info (and rbasak to provide some details as well).
<rbasak> balloons: do you understand exactly what that means?
<rbasak> I just want to make sure we aren't stalled on something where nobody knows what to do to make progress.
<rbasak> (I feel a bit like that right now)
<BenC> For the record, Iâm proposing deferring until next meeting for DMB, not to TB.
<BenC> If we canât decide at that meeting, weâll either reject, or punt to TB.
<balloons> rbasak, it sounds like people want some more details on the TB exception?
<rbasak> BenC: do you need anything else?
<BenC> Nope
<BenC> #accepted Defer vote on Nicholas Skaggs JuJu PPU until next meeting.
<BenC> #action balloons Provide details on packaging issues and TB SRU exception for JuJu prior to next meeting.
<meetingology> ACTION: balloons Provide details on packaging issues and TB SRU exception for JuJu prior to next meeting.
<BenC> #agreed Defer vote on Nicholas Skaggs JuJu PPU until next meeting.
 * BenC kicks the bot
<rbasak> I don't think it replies to those.
<BenC> The wiki is wrong, then.
<BenC> #info Defer vote on Nicholas Skaggs JuJu PPU until next meeting.
<rbasak> I mean it notes those, but doesn't tell you it did.
<BenC> Ah
<BenC> balloons: Thanks for your time and patience.
<BenC> #topic Review of previous action items
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<BenC> #subtopic infinity to make permission changes for new PPU packages for GunnarHj (carried over)
<BenC> Anyone know about that one?
<bdmurray> still carried afaik
<BenC> #subtopic infinity to add Otto PPU access to mariadb-10.0, mariadb-client-lgpl, and galera-3
<BenC> And this one?
<bdmurray> hanging out with the other one
<BenC> #subtopic bdmurray to find another TB member to grant Otto PPU access
<BenC> bdmurray: This is your item to shine on :)
<bdmurray> Uh oh, I didn't have any luck.
<BenC> Carried on overâ¦
<BenC> The last three are marked done...
<BenC> #topic Ubuntu Core Developer Applications
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<BenC> #subtopic Christian Ehrhardt
<cpaelzer> o/
<BenC> cpaelzer: Welcome, and thanks for wating through our previous discussion.
<BenC> Care to kick off the conversation with a bit about your request for CoreDev?
<cpaelzer> sure
<cpaelzer> first of all hi
<cpaelzer> I work for in Server Team almost a year now
<cpaelzer> 49 weeks I think to be correct
<cpaelzer> individual focus natrually shifts around every now and then, but the server team overall always is responsible for all the server packages and its peers in the wider set
<cpaelzer> so I've had quite some time in bugfixes and merges over the last 12 months
<cpaelzer> just as background, I was before Mainframe Linux Performance and KVM specialist
<cpaelzer> so the main focus was dpdk (TL;DR I/O optimization via userspace based device drivers)
<cpaelzer> and recently qemu/libvirt which degraded a bit over the past
<cpaelzer> dpdk especially is a very ...
<cpaelzer> umm special package sometimes
<cpaelzer> I hate to say that having read the last 60 minutes with you :-)
<cpaelzer> but it isn't special in the same way at least
<cpaelzer> so a lot of work went into getting that mature
<cpaelzer> that means a lot of testing
<BenC> Sorry, Iâm a bit lazy at this point. Do you already have any upload privs?
<cpaelzer> a lot of packaging getting from basics to working runtime things aroudn it
<cpaelzer> sure feel free to stop after so much time already :-)
<cpaelzer> no I have no upload rights yet
<cpaelzer> In fact after doing all that a few months ago actually I decided I apply for a DPDK ppu only
<BenC> No, I mean I donât feel like digging myself, so asking you instead :)
<cpaelzer> but a few of my endorsers told me to strive for more given my work
<cpaelzer> so I was shy and thought on server-dev but people recommended to ask for core-dev and let you as the DMB decide
<BenC> Canât knock someone for aiming high, but I have to ask: What part of your work requires CoreDev above just plain PPU?
<cpaelzer> which is your right anyway - no matter the histroy of my request
<cpaelzer> hehe
<cpaelzer> As I said I work on a lot of sevrer packages
<cpaelzer> for example plenty of ntp things recently
<cpaelzer> some clamav and others
<cpaelzer> a lot of merges
<cpaelzer> all these need more upload rights to get faster progress
<BenC> Does your work usually have you floating to where the work is needed rather than taking ownership of a package or packages?
<cpaelzer> anything complex goes through team review anyway, but even there it would help to help others
<cpaelzer> well not totally floating
<cpaelzer> I'd say I have about 40% server Team packages in general
<cpaelzer> 30% dpdk
<cpaelzer> 30% whatever currently is the most important - but usually server Team package related
<cpaelzer> atm the last 30% are into qemu/libvirt for example
<cpaelzer> so floating in a sense that I usually care abotu many hings yes
<cpaelzer> but not in a sense that I don't know today what I'll do tomorrow
<BenC> cpaelzer: Did you do any package work in Ubuntu before starting with the server team @ canonical?
<bdmurray> I don't see any sponsored uploads for qemu/libvirt - https://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi?render=html&sponsoree=christian%20ehrhardt&sponsoree_search=name
<cpaelzer> BenC: no there was no deb packaing before joining
<cpaelzer> bdmurray: yes the qemu/libvirt tasks just started a few weeks ago
<cpaelzer> bdmurray: it is in such a shabby state that I had to start writing tests at first
<cpaelzer> bdmurray: https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/ubuntu/+source/qemu-migration-test/+git/qemu-migration-test
<cpaelzer> as plan to guide my coming uploads
<cpaelzer> and identify how much more issues we have
<cpaelzer> as I mentioned before my pre-Canonical time has quite a lot of KVM history
<cpaelzer> so qemu/libvirt isn't new to me
<cpaelzer> but you are right up until recently most sevrer Team work in that area has been taken care of by hallyn
<cpaelzer> (who left Canonical now)
<cpaelzer> while not uploads just a bit on KVM recently https://share.confex.com/share/123/webprogram/Session15752.html but also long ago http://www.linux-kvm.org/images/7/79/KvmForum2008$kdf2008_10.pdf
<cpaelzer> the former performance centric work made me kind of a jack-of-all-trades already, which seems to come in handy now working on the bugs we care about
 * cpaelzer is slowing down to avoid too much wall-of-text
<BenC> cpaelzer: Your abilities for technical and development work are easy to find and validate (I checked on your kernel patches as well). My main concern is an apparent weakness (in my eyes) with packaging experience. Without a lot of knowledge, it can be easy to make packaging mistakes unintentionally.
<cpaelzer> BenC: I would sign "Without a lot of knowledge, it can be easy to make packaging mistakes unintentionally" with blood
<cpaelzer> I happen to just ask when things are unclear which seems to be a forgotten feat these days
<cpaelzer> but surely
<cpaelzer> sometimes you just don't know you would have to ask before things happen
<cpaelzer> I'm well aware that I'm still on the rampup part of skill-rampup in regard to packaging
<cpaelzer> but to some extend I think one always is
<cpaelzer> I have seen even some of the overlords of our packaging sometimes wonder about some detail
<cpaelzer> it is just more details to me to still wonder about I guess
<BenC> Knowledge is knowing you donât know everythingâ¦
<cpaelzer> that is a nice summary to what I tried to say - yes
<BenC> bdmurray, micahg: Any questions or comments?
<BenC> I want to wrap up my comments by saying that I donât think core-dev is the right place to drop someone with just shy of a year of packaging experience.
<BenC> I am, however, inclined to say yes to PPU for server package set.
<cpaelzer> waiting for other concerns to be raised, but I'd be happy to work with server-dev as well and we likely meet again here one day when the upload history has grown
<BenC> cpaelzer: Given your aptitude and handling of this conversation, I would be surprisded if you arenât core-dev at some future time.
<bdmurray> I have no questions.
<BenC> Do any DMB members have concerns with me moving directly to a CFV on server-dev, preempting a core-dev vote?
<BenC> Okâ¦
<BenC> #vote Grant Christian Ehrhardt Server-Dev upload privs
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant Christian Ehrhardt Server-Dev upload privs
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<BenC> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from BenC
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<rbasak> +1 to make quorum, though I'd prefer to have self-recused as I'm a colleague
<meetingology> +1 to make quorum, though I'd prefer to have self-recused as I'm a colleague received from rbasak
<BenC> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant Christian Ehrhardt Server-Dev upload privs
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<BenC> cpaelzer: Congrats on your new status!
<rbasak> cpaelzer: congratulations!
<cpaelzer> Thank you all
<BenC> #topic Any Other Business
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<cpaelzer> and never be shy to tell me if I came along with som bullshÂ§$ upload as that is the best way for me to uncover the remaining packaging bits
<rbasak> May we have actions for: announcement, add to ~ubuntu-server-dev, and add to ~ubuntu-dev if required please? All three in one action is fine :)
<BenC> #action Christian Ehrhardt to announcements, add to ~ubuntu-server-dev and ~ubuntu-dev if required.
<meetingology> ACTION: Christian Ehrhardt to announcements, add to ~ubuntu-server-dev and ~ubuntu-dev if required.
<BenC> AOB from anyone?
<rbasak> Who has that action? :)
<BenC> rbasak: I assumed you were doing the honors? :)
<rbasak> OK :)
<BenC> If you had AOB, you need to be faster next time. Weâre just short of 2 hours, and I am out of hereâ¦
<BenC> #endmeeting
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<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep 12 20:49:30 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-09-12-19.08.moin.txt
<BenC> Iâll update the agenda later this evening. Thanks everyone!
<cpaelzer> thanks everyone, I wouldn't have expected this to be so long and exhausting - I have to spend you a beer next time seeing any of you for doing all that for the community
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-09-13
<gaughen> I'm here!
<cpaelzer> p/
<cpaelzer> o
<nacc> o/
<gaughen> cpaelzer, hold on a sec.. I need to get myself sorted
<nacc> gaughen: you did it!
<gaughen> time got away from me
<gaughen> I made it!!!
<gaughen> I haven't started the meeting yet
<nacc> ok, you're halfway to doing it!
<cpaelzer> time is space and that expands, it gets away from us all
<gaughen> cpaelzer, nacc imagine that the best hold music you've ever heard is currently playing
<cpaelzer> it actually is
<powersj> o/
<gaughen> okay I'm ready
<jgrimm> o/
<gaughen> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep 13 16:02:42 2016 UTC.  The chair is gaughen. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
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<gaughen> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
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<gaughen> no action points to review... wee!
<gaughen> #topic Yakkety Development
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<gaughen> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/YakketyYak/ReleaseSchedule
<gaughen> GA is a month from today - gaaaaa!
<caribou> o/
<gaughen> Final beta is coming up - week of Sept 22
<smoser> o//
<gaughen> and I see kernel freeze is week of Sept 29
<gaughen> so get on it, people!
<gaughen> moving on
<gaughen> #subtopic Release Bugs
<gaughen> #subtopic Release Bugs
<gaughen> grr
<gaughen> #subtopic Release Bugs
<gaughen> okay, guess it's right
 * gaughen drinks some coffee
<cpaelzer> so many bugs :-/
<gaughen> any worth talking about?
<gaughen> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs (caribou)
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<caribou> nothing to report !
<gaughen> caribou, you have any words of wisdom for everyoone?
<gaughen> everyone
<nacc> jgrimm: did we get a new url for release bugs?
<gaughen> too late, nacc, I've moved on
<gaughen> no link allowed
<caribou> gaughen: no :)
<gaughen> this is caribou's time
<gaughen> ;-)
<gaughen> okay, let me move on
<gaughen> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
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<gaughen> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<jgrimm> nacc, i owe that.  happy to take an action
<powersj> Completed the addition of an s390x system and a dedicated amd64 system to the server team jenkins (https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/). Other than getting the NVMe storage running faster on the baremetal system, this should complete all the outstanding infrastructure/Jenkins related tasks. On to writing more tests!
<gaughen> and in this section, we quiz powerj
<powersj> Speaking of tests, have a daily ISO sizer job started to determine how much the daily ISOs have increased or decreased each day.
<powersj> As we approach the end of Yakkety, the automated ISO tests are getting better and better. Nuclearbob and I have evaluated many of the failures and continue to clean things up.
<nacc> jgrimm: thanks
<powersj> And a thank you to gaughen for getting me access to AWS, Azure, and GCP for cloud-init/curtin/bug work.
<gaughen> that's awesome powersj
<gaughen> no problem-o powersj - use it well and make cloud-init fabulous!
<gaughen> powersj, do you have anything else to say?
<powersj> not on this topic :) thanks
<gaughen> anyone questions for the powersj?
<gaughen> k
<gaughen> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee, arges)
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<gaughen> kernel homies, it is your turn
<smb> nothing new *sight* ...still
<smb> *sigh*even
<gaughen> smb, did you all move to 4.6?
<smb> not publicly yet... there is previews but the archive is still back on 4.4
<gaughen> so coming soon - 4.6!
<gaughen> okay moving on
<gaughen> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
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<gaughen> any call for papers worth noting?
<gaughen> bueller
<gaughen> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
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<nacc> gaughen: do you want to note the prior action for jgrimm ? (adding a url for server release bugs)
<gaughen> jgrimm, nacc, cpaelzer, smoser, powersj - you all have any cocktail hours planned or anything?
<gaughen> nacc, yup, plotting to
<gaughen> thanks!
<nacc> gaughen: thanks!
<cpaelzer> yep, planned
<nacc> gaughen: i mean, 5pm every day?
<jgrimm> gaughen: would be beer for us, you know that!
<gaughen> pssh
<jgrimm> snooty beers even
<cpaelzer> <- wine as well
<gaughen> grapefruit radler!
<nacc> :)
 * jgrimm shakes head
<gaughen> okay, moving on
<gaughen> #topic Open Discussion
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<cpaelzer> here, typing ...
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, want to give a headsup on dpdk/ovs testing
<gaughen> jgrimm, I've been doing an exhaustive analysis of radlers
<cpaelzer> actually qemu I think, but yes
<cpaelzer> The feedback to the machine type handling was not a lot
<cpaelzer> a few private replies
<jgrimm> cpaelzer, well.. both relevant, though indeed qemu is more interesting
<cpaelzer> I integrated all of that and created a wiki page just as hallyn did in the far past (trusty)
<cpaelzer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QemuKVMMigration
<cpaelzer> It is still WIP
<cpaelzer> but the good message is that I have automated tests for in-release, cross-release and backward migration
<cpaelzer> as well as a wrapper to run the qa tests of the security team against any those release
<jgrimm> very nice
<cpaelzer> that will be my guide to prep the next (most urgendt) uploads for issues
<gaughen> cool
<gaughen> anything else cpaelzer?
<cpaelzer> the dpdk testing still works as is, but I really think this cycle we will have the chance to move both of those from manual to something driven by jenkins
<cpaelzer> powersj: already has the right machine
<cpaelzer> so that should work out
<powersj> yep!
<cpaelzer> I guess that's it for now
<cpaelzer> just wanted to let you know
<gaughen> it's very good progress
<gaughen> anyone else have any topics for the open topics?
<gaughen> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
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<gaughen> next week at the same time and place, the famous jamespage is the chair!
<cpaelzer> thanks gaughen
<gaughen> #topic Assign daily bug triage for week (powersj, rbasak, nacc, cpaelzer)
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<powersj> On deck for the rest of the week are nacc (wed), cpaelzer (thur), and rbasak (today & fri). Any issues with completing this?
<gaughen> oh wait, there are two more little topics
<jgrimm> :)
 * powersj thinks the announce next meeting topic should be last FYI
<gaughen> I'm moving it, powersj
<jgrimm> powersj, i was thinking the same
<gaughen> ditto
<jgrimm> we did it intentionally to let people go... but its confusing
<nacc> powersj: no issues
<gaughen> okay moving on
<gaughen> #topic Assigned merges/bugwork (rbasak)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Assigned merges/bugwork (rbasak)
<rbasak> Agreed. Also these topics are pretty short now.
<gaughen> rbasak, has been quiet this meeting
<powersj> jgrimm, thx
<gaughen> oh you are here
<rbasak> Since people are pretty much self-managing now.
<gaughen> I had already made the executive decision to move it ;-)
<rbasak> So...any issues?
<gaughen> but glad you all agree
<rbasak> I feel that progress is slowing, so it would be great if everyone could remember to look at their bugs please.
<jgrimm> rbasak, i've updated the spreadsheet.   1 bug closed (fixed even), 1 waiting on someone else, 1 i need to get back to
<cpaelzer> no issues on my side, but also no capacity to catch more bugs
<powersj> rbasak, I could look at 1-2 small ones
<cpaelzer> depending on what you want we might add  a few of the qemu/kvm bug to the list
<rbasak> powersj: OK, I'll find you some after the meeting. Thanks!
<cpaelzer> rbasak: would you want me to add those?
<rbasak> cpaelzer: sure, go ahead.
<nacc> rbasak: i'm going to pull some bugs off our backlog today, as i'm freeing up now
<cpaelzer> ok, will do that
<jgrimm> rbasak, i'd take 1 too
<rbasak> nacc: great, thanks!
<jgrimm> nacc, don't forget pollinate
<nacc> jgrimm: ack, it's fixed in yakkety, waiting on testing from bug originator
<nacc> jgrimm: before we upload to xenial, as we don't want to regress/break via SRU
<jgrimm> nacc, cool. powersj will want to test that across clouds
<jgrimm> nacc, +1
<nacc> jgrimm: ack
<nacc> powersj: --^ :)
<powersj> yep!
<gaughen> nacc, curious what the bug was.. I'll pest you offline
<gaughen> okay you all done?
<cpaelzer> y
<gaughen> sweet
<jgrimm> gaughen, thanks!
<gaughen> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep 13 16:21:26 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-09-13-16.02.moin.txt
<nacc> gaughen: thanks!
<gaughen> no problem-o
#ubuntu-meeting 2016-09-15
<robru> o/
<caribou> \o
<pitti> o/
<pitti> does mumble work for you?
<pitti> says "wrong password" here
<bdmurray> wfm
<robru> pitti: I'm also in the mumble without issue
<cyphermox> wrong password for me too
<cyphermox> heh, I think part of LP might be having trouble
<pitti> oh, third time it worked
<pitti> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Sep 15 15:03:39 2016 UTC.  The chair is pitti. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<pitti> #topic lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: lightning round
 * pitti rolls the dice *drumroll*
<pitti> infinity robru caribou cyphermox pitti tdaitx barry xnox sil2100 chiluk bdmurray doko slangasek
<robru> ooooh
<pitti> robru: close!
<pitti> well, first in reality, no Adam
<robru> even better!
<robru> lp:canonical-mojo-specs
<robru> * many iterations towards bileto.ubuntu.com on xenial
<robru> lp:bileto
<robru> * minor cache expiry cleanups
<robru> * Stop prefixing ephemeral PPA names with "landing-"
<robru> * Add PPA dependencies dynamically.
<robru> * Clear signoffs in more situations.
<robru> * Stop showing cancellations in the list of failured jobs.
<robru> * Drop redundant ticket number from britney output paths.
<robru> * Display elapsed job time more readably.
<robru> * Only restart gunicorn3 when there are python changes during rollouts.
<robru> * Index all static files, not just britney files.
<robru> * Graph elapsed time of each job.
<robru> * New /v1/active API endpoint.
<robru> * Drop a few redundant API endpoints.
<robru> * Report when binary packages still pending publication.
<robru> * Warn when MPs define prerequisites that are not present.
<pitti> EOF or SIGPIPE?
<xnox> SIGBUS
<robru> pitti: what's the last message you saw? I tried pasting in chunks to avoid getting cut off there
<pitti> robru | * Warn when MPs define prerequisites that are not present.
<robru> one sec
<robru> * Show job starters & cancellers in log list.
<robru> * Fix MP sorting with tests.
<robru> * Change PPA displayname to match name.
<robru> * use flashplugin-nonfree/multiverse in place of NEW packages as per pitti.
<robru> * Catch when PPA creation fails because old PPA not yet deleted and retry with different (N.1, N.2, etc) name.
<robru> * Add nagios check for tracebacks in log files.
<robru> lp:phablet-tools
<robru> * don't reboot device if no packages were upgraded
<robru> * take ticket number as argument and look up what PPA name is
<robru> (done)
<caribou> Bugfix:
<caribou>  dpkg status file corrupt
<caribou>   - Trying to gather evidence
<caribou>  Trusty multipath-tools does not document /etc/multilpath/wwids upon restart
<caribou>  SRU on the way
<caribou> Development:
<caribou>  Working on a sosreport charm
<caribou> â Done*
<xnox> charm, not snap? =)
<cyphermox> MIR:
<cyphermox> - review pykerberos (bug LP: #1620293)
<cyphermox> - review python-requests-kerberos (bug LP: #1620293)
<cyphermox> ubuntu-core:
<cyphermox> - apt-mirror snap
<caribou> xnox: charm
<pitti> caribou: that's not just bad RAM/file system?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1620293 in python-requests-kerberos (Ubuntu) "[MIR] python-requests-kerberos and pykerberos (deps of python-keystoneauth1)" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1620293
<cyphermox> - subiquity merges and testing
<cyphermox> - probert update/merge with wifi ESSID logic from mwhudson
<cyphermox> xenial:
<cyphermox> - verifying shim-signed SRU (bug LP: #1574727)
<cyphermox> yakkety:
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574727 in shim (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU] Enforce using signed kernels and modules on UEFI" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574727
<caribou> pitti: the corruption issue ?
<cyphermox> - replacing klibc's ipconfig with dhclient
<cyphermox>   - for MAAS uses on IPv6-only networks
<cyphermox> - review/merge ubiquity-slideshow animal update from willcooke
<cyphermox> - review/merge ubiquity-slideshow update for ubuntu-gnome
<cyphermox>   - updated version numbers for all flavors at the same time
<cyphermox> - ubiquity merge from ochosi (bug lp: 1622258)
<cyphermox>   - Account for larger harddrives in the partition size spinbutton.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1622258 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Partition creation box during installation is too small" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1622258
<cyphermox> (done)
<pitti> autopkgtest:
<pitti> - Add queues.json and panel for machine readable data
<pitti> - Debug long reboot delays in scalingstack (ongoing)
<pitti> - Find and deploy shabby workaround for slow RNG initialization in test VMs (#1622893)
<pitti> - Fix broken statistics page after adding dummy vivid results (to make vivid queues visible again)
<pitti> - Fix workers to cleanly exit on TERM/HUP again after xenial upgrade
<pitti> - britney: Don't request tests for frozen packages with missing builds (caused endless test loop for duplicity/trusty/ppc64el)
<pitti> - britney: Fix stalled test requests for reverse dependencies that only exist in -proposed (#1622846)
<pitti> distro:
<pitti> - apport: Fix test regressions with latest apt/gnupg2
<pitti> - init-system-helpers: Fix package installation in cloud-init (#1576692)
<pitti> - init-system-helpers: adjust for trusty systemd backport (#1616422)
<pitti> - merges: debhelper, nfs-utils, util-linux
<pitti> - python-dbusmock: fix test regression with latest bluez
<pitti> - systemd: investigate misbehaviour of Type=idle (#1621846) and networkd failure on old 3.4 kernel (#1623068)
<pitti> - Investigate/fix (with smoser) postgresql install failure with cloud-init (#1576692)
<pitti> - unity-gtk-module: Fix startup race condition (#1618886)
<pitti> misc:
<pitti> - langpack-o-matic: Create charm, move from snakefruit to devops environment
<pitti> - meeting: robust package installation in cloud-init
<pitti> - meeting: ubuntu-system-test next steps
<pitti> ~ end ~
<pitti> caribou: yes; are there still legitimate dpkg bugs with the status file after like 20 years?
<tdaitx> Short and slow week: sick since Monday, working slower and for shorter periods of time
<tdaitx> = proposed migration
<tdaitx> - Investigating  linux-libc-dev headers mismatch between powerpc/ppc64 and other archs as it causes FTBFS for various packages (LP: #1619446); trying to figure out what's wrong and propose a patch
<tdaitx> - Removing mozart requires reverse dependency checks but reverse-depends (from ubuntu-dev-tools) relies on ubuntuwire and it seems to be offline; opened bug for now (LP: #1623951)
<tdaitx> - Opened bug for mozart-stdlib as well (LP: #1623962)
<tdaitx> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1619446 in linux (Ubuntu) "mismatching headers between powerpc/ppc64el and other archs" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1619446
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1623951 in mozart (Ubuntu) "please remove mozart from yakkety" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1623951
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1623962 in mozart-stdlib (Ubuntu) "please remove mozart-stdlib from yakkety" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1623962
<caribou> pitti: no the corruption is too systematic & logic
<caribou> pitti: & on >500 desktops
<pitti> caribou: oh, happy hunting then
<xnox> but same/single deployment
<xnox> aka "one person" with many machines.
<caribou> xnox: no, multiple workstations/desktops
<pitti> xnox: you're up next
<xnox> bah
<xnox> Upload SRUs for opencryptoki & libica
<xnox> There is still some gnupg2 fallout left, fixing
<xnox> Want to stop using apt-key update, and use /etc/apt/trusted.gpg exclusively
<xnox> Various s390x autopkgtest fixes / enablements
<xnox> Provide per-arch stats on autopkgtests.ubuntu.com/statistics
<xnox> Debugged 4k 8TB drive qemu bug -> requires extra qemu options it seems
<xnox> qemu 2.6.1 update in progress.
<xnox> ..
<pitti> chiluk: anything from you this week?
<cyphermox> xnox: please share your settings for 4K drives... I had some config before and it started to not work anymore.
<pitti> timeout, bdmurray?
<bdmurray> buntu-release-upgrader bug triage
<bdmurray> rls-y bug triage
<bdmurray> checked askubuntu / ubuntuforums for any HWE issues
<bdmurray> bug pattern writing for oibaf xorg PPA, multiple MetaPkgs
<bdmurray> wrote a bug pattern for backuppc upgrade issue LP: #1610756
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1610756 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "upgrade to 16.04 failed to calculate due to backuppc" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1610756
<bdmurray> committed HWE changes to yakkety / uploaded update-manager
<bdmurray> fixed whoopsie build failure, uploaded to Yakkety
<bdmurray> reviewed update-notifier patch (LP: #1621629)
<bdmurray> submitted merge proposal regarding component-mismatches svg changes
<bdmurray> review of docker SRU policy
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1621629 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "package-data-downloader fails to process download requests" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1621629
<bdmurray> approved livecd-rootfs Xenial upload (regression fix)
<bdmurray> worked on snapping youtube-dl
<bdmurray> travel arrangements for Product Sprint in The Hague
<bdmurray> â done
<xnox> cyphermox, from https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1619470 $ qemu-system-ppc64le -M pseries -cpu POWER8 -m 2048 -vga none -nographic -cdrom yakkety-server-ppc64el.iso -enable-kvm -device virtio-scsi-pci,id=scsi -device scsi-hd,drive=hd,physical_block_size=4096,logical_block_size=4096 -drive if=none,id=hd,file=disk.qcow2,format=qcow2 did the trick, that is setting _both_ physical_block_size and logical_block_size
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1619470 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu-KVM:Install Ubuntu16.04.01 OS consistently failed on big size DASD Libra HE10 8TB drive" [Undecided,Invalid]
<cyphermox> xnox yeah, I had tried that, it must have been some other thing then
<pitti> and last but not least, doko
<cyphermox> or perhaps a broken qemu
<xnox> cyphermox, it works on xenial as a per-device setting, i failed to make it work with global_ setting type =/
<cyphermox> right, I tried global too ;)
<cyphermox> xnox: ie: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~cyphermox/+junk/vm/view/head:/4k-sectors.sh
 * xnox thinks qemu should just default to 4k these days - no harm on 512 backing devices, no?!
<pitti> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<pitti> calling once..
<cyphermox> nope
<pitti> calling twice..
<cyphermox> nope
<pitti> sold!
<pitti> thanks everyone!
<pitti> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Sep 15 15:17:45 2016 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2016/ubuntu-meeting.2016-09-15-15.03.moin.txt
<cyphermox> thanks pitti!
<tdaitx> thanks pitti!
<ogra_> cyphermox, pessimist :P
<caribou> thanks!
<cyphermox> ogra_: what for?
<ogra_> always saying nope indeed
<cyphermox> ah
<ogra_> :)
<cyphermox> well worst case we could have an AOAOB section.
<ogra_> heh
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-09-11
<tyhicks> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep 11 16:31:46 2017 UTC.  The chair is tyhicks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<mdeslaur> \o
<tyhicks> The meeting agenda can be found at:
<tyhicks> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Announcements
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Announcements
<tyhicks> Gianfranco Costamagna provided a debdiff for xenial for check-all-the-things (LP: #1597245)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1597245 in check-all-the-things (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU] update check-all-the-things to xenial" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1597245
<tyhicks> Simon Quigley (tsimonq2) provided a debdiff for xenial for karchive (LP: #1712948)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1712948 in karchive (Ubuntu Xenial) "[CVE] KNewstuff downloads can install files outside the extraction directory" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1712948
<tyhicks> James Cowgill (jcowgill) provided debdiffs for xenial and zesty for mbedtls (LP: #1714640)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1714640 in mbedtls (Ubuntu Artful) "CVE-2017-14032 - certificate authentication bypass" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1714640
<tyhicks> Thank you for your assistance in keeping Ubuntu users secure! :)
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Weekly stand-up report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Weekly stand-up report
<tyhicks> jdstrand: you're up
<jdstrand> This week I plan to work on:
<jdstrand> * updating the review tools for new license yaml, better error reporting and a few smaller fixes
<jdstrand> * continuing reviews in support of snapd layouts feature (PR 3621)
<jdstrand> * investigate device cgroup issues in snapd
<jdstrand> * miscellaneous policy updates for snapd as have time
<jdstrand> * start next steps of my parts of uid/gid work in snapd as have time
<jdstrand> that's it from me. mdeslaur, you're up
<mdeslaur> I'm just back from vacation, so I'll be catching up on email
<mdeslaur> I think I have qemu packages to publish tomorow
<mdeslaur> and I'll be going down the list after that
<mdeslaur> that's it, sbeattie, you're up
<sbeattie> I'm in the happy place this week.
<sbeattie> I have a couple of embargoed issues I'm looking at
<sbeattie> I'm also working on a libxml2 update
<sbeattie> I'll have the usual kernel triage bits to go through.
<sbeattie> I have some apparmor stuff to review, and I think a couple of qrt tasks to investigate
<sbeattie> that's probably it for me.
<sbeattie> tyhicks: you're up
<tyhicks> I'm in the happy place this week
<tyhicks> I'm here for the first half of the week and then I'll be traveling to and attending the Linux Security Summit in the last half
<tyhicks> I'll be working on packaging/testing fscrypt 0.2.1
<tyhicks> I'll test the latest LSM stacking patches prior to LSS
<tyhicks> (I quickly reviewed the patches a week or two ago)
<jjohansen> tyhicks: I have a tree with them on artful 4.13 I'll point you at
<tyhicks> and I'll see if I can fit any libseccomp backports/uploads in if the PR gets an ack
<tyhicks> that's it for me
<tyhicks> jjohansen: thanks, that'll be helpful
<tyhicks> jjohansen: you're up
<jjohansen> I am at Linux plumbers and the linux security conference this week, today I am prepping for presentations and discussions around apparmor, LSM stacking, and LSM namespacing
<ratliff> if you want any reviewers, please let us know, jjohansen
<jjohansen> that is it for me I haven't seen sarnold so back to you tyhicks
<jjohansen> ratliff: ah, thanks that would be good
<tyhicks> chrisccoulson: are you back around?
<sarnold> tyhicks: i'm finally in :)
<tyhicks> sarnold: hey - go ahead
<sarnold> I'm on bug triage this week
<sarnold> i'm helping jj with apparmor patch reviews as he generates them
<sarnold> working on nghttp2 mir ATM and moving on to the python elftools one once that's finished
<sarnold> that'll probably account for the week, so token back to chrisccoulson or ratliff?
<ratliff> I'll give chrisccoulson a minute to pipe up, then I'll go
<tyhicks> he had to step away for an errand and was iffy on returning in time
<tyhicks> you can go ahead
<ratliff> I'm on community this week.
<ratliff> I have a number of organizational and technical documentation tasks to do.
<ratliff> I also need to start doing sprint prep for the two upcoming sprints.
<ratliff> leosilva: on to you
<leosilva> I'm in CVE triage this week.
<leosilva> Soon I finish it for today I'm planning to get gdk-pixbuf and retest the issues to see if it can or not patched
<leosilva> also planning to hunting more pkgs to update.
<leosilva> that is for me.
<leosilva> tyhicks: it's back to you
<tyhicks> thanks
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Highlighted packages
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Highlighted packages
<tyhicks> The Ubuntu Security team will highlight some community-supported packages that might be good candidates for updating and or triaging. If you would like to help Ubuntu and not sure where to start, this is a great way to do so.
<tyhicks> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdateProcedures for details and if you have any questions, feel free to ask in #ubuntu-security. To find out other ways of helping out, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/GettingInvolved.
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/python-jwcrypto.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/libid3tag.html
<tyhicks> [TOPIC] Miscellaneous and Questions
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Miscellaneous and Questions
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/atheme-services.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/golang-github-appc-docker2aci.html
<tyhicks> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/pkg/mxml.html
<tyhicks> Does anyone have any other questions or items to discuss?
<tyhicks> I'll give a quick summary of Chris' plans for the week and then we'll end the meeting:
<tyhicks>    * finish updating rustc to 1.19
<tyhicks>    * start on updating rustc to 1.20
<tyhicks>    * thunderbird update
<tyhicks>    * sponsor chromium-browser update
<tyhicks>    * fix bugs for Firefox 56
<tyhicks>     * menubar
<tyhicks>     * FTBFS on Trusty
<tyhicks>     * armhf issue
<tyhicks> jdstrand, mdeslaur, sbeattie, jjohansen, sarnold, ratliff, leosilva: Thanks!
<ratliff> thank you, tyhicks!
<tyhicks> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep 11 16:50:17 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-09-11-16.31.moin.txt
<jdstrand> tyhicks: thanks!
<leosilva> tks tyhicks !
<mdeslaur> thanks tyhicks
<sarnold> thanks tyhicks!
<jjohansen> thanks tyhicks
<ddstreet> 0
<ddstreet>  typo
<sil2100> o/
<fossfreedom> hi sil2100
<ddstreet> o/
<sil2100> Hello dear applicants!
<sil2100> I wonder if we'll get quorum
<micahg> o/
<jbicha> hi, I am a bit distracted today because of Irma but I'll see what I can do :)
<bdmurray> o/
<bdmurray> even if we don't get quorum we have some things to discuss
<ddstreet> jbicha hope you're ok!  i'm in NC, and surprisingly it seems we'll miss the worst of it
<jbicha> I'm south of Tampa and it seems we missed the worst of it too (except for the power outages)
<sil2100> I guess we have quorum already
<sil2100> Looks like we have 4 members present
<sil2100> Who wants to chair?
<micahg> well, we still need to certify the election results and have the TB do the same
<bdmurray> So we need BenC?
<micahg> yeah, would be good
<BenC> Iâm here
<BenC> o/
<sil2100> \o/
<bdmurray> or rbasak
<bdmurray> sil2100: Do you mind chairing?
<sil2100> I could
<sil2100> #startmeeting DMB
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep 11 19:08:10 2017 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic:
<sil2100> #topic Review of previous action items
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: Review of previous action items
<sil2100> I guess all the action items are done
<sil2100> Since the vote finished, we'd just need to announce the results + contact the TB
<bdmurray> Should we talk about the vote now or during AOB?
<sil2100> But that's a separate task
<sil2100> Let's talk afterwards, since application handling I'd prefer prioritized
<bdmurray> Okay.
<sil2100> #topic SRU Developer applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: SRU Developer applications
<sil2100> #subtopic Dan Streetman
<sil2100> ddstreet: o/ Could you introduce yourself?
<ddstreet> hello o/
<sil2100> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ddstreet/UbuntuSRUDeveloperApplication <- application link
<ddstreet> hi, i'm dan streetman, as indicated, and applying for the 'SRU developer' role
<ddstreet> sil2100 thanks, that's my application link
<ddstreet> i work closely with slashd, who is currently the only other SRU devel
<ddstreet> any questions for me?
<bdmurray> Look at the sponsorship miner I don't see very many SRU uploads. Maybe 8 is that right?
<ddstreet> yes, not too many, around 8 is probably right
<ddstreet> i have spent a lot of time working on kernel patches also
<ddstreet> and my last upload, for pylint, was artful only, no SRU
<bdmurray> That's interesting but I'm not certain its relevant to an SRU application.
<ddstreet> no, kernel and devel uploads are not relevant
<sil2100> ddstreet: a 'technical' question from my side - when submitting an SRU application, what info would you include in the Regression Potential field?
<sil2100> What is the purpose of this field?
<ddstreet> i would include any possible side-effects of the change
<ddstreet> e.g. what area of the code does this change touch, and if that code area breaks, what would that look like?
<sil2100> Thanks
<ddstreet> an example of what i've put in regression potential before, from my last vlan sru: "Any modifications to ifupdown or the scripts it uses may cause wider problems with network configuration. Specifically, this could cause problems when using vlan interfaces, as it forces every vlan's raw device interface to be fully ifup'ed before the vlan interface can finish its ifup."
<bdmurray> What prompted applying for SRU uploads today? Is not having access blocking your work even though your last SRU was in June?
<sil2100> ddstreet: a more theoretical question - what do you think, does the lack of upload rights block your work? Will you do more uploads when having the permissions?
<ddstreet> bdmurray mainly my application is so i can help move along sru applications into the queue to be reviewed
<ddstreet> i.e., speed up sru's that are needed
<ddstreet> sil2100 yes i will likely do more uploads, but probably i'll be uploading other's work
<bdmurray> ddstreet: so it'd allow you to sponsor other SRUs?
<ddstreet> yes
<ddstreet> i do not think i will personally create more patches that i apply for sru's for, but i do think i will review and upload other people's sru's
<ddstreet> obviously more than i do now, since i can't do that now ;-)
<ddstreet> and of course, it will help me when i do have a sru to upload
<ddstreet> personally-authored sru, that is
<bdmurray> That's different than what *I'd* expected this application or other SRU developer applications to look like.
<ddstreet> bdmurray what do you expect is the intention of people applying for SRU devel?
<bdmurray> I'd expected applicants to uploading their own work not sponsoring stuff for others.
<ddstreet> is that what you expect of core devs?
<micahg> one of the for granting rights is significant and sustained uploads/contributions except in cases where that doesn't make sense (PPU for a mature package that needs very infrequent updates)
<ddstreet> mainly upload their own patches?
<micahg> *one of the criteria
<bdmurray> ddstreet: How would you evaluate whether or not an upload is SRU ready?
<ddstreet> bdmurray there's 2 parts to that: 1) technical change to whatever codebase it is, and 2) sru metadata like changelog format, version number, etc
<ddstreet> for #1, the change depends on the package, and i would review the patch(es) and existing code to see how the code works, what the author is changing, if it makes sense and is done correctly, and mostly if it's upstream
<ddstreet> if it's not accepted in the upstream code, that's a big red flag for deinal
<ddstreet> assuming it's upstream, make sure it's in the devel release first
<ddstreet> if upstream accepted it, and it's in devel, and the code looks good, then check #2
<ddstreet> which involves making sure the changelog has no trailing whitespace, line length is right, includes LP: #NNN, right changelog text, author name/email
<ddstreet> check the patch e.g. patch -p1, quilt import/push/refresh, builds ok, autpkgtest
<ddstreet> version number is correct based on current version
<ddstreet> rather a lot of meta-data checks (i've thought about adding a tool to ubuntu-dev-tools to automate some of that, like scripts/checkpatch.pl for the kernel)
<ddstreet> any other q's for me?
<sil2100> Any questions? Or should we proceed to voting?
<bdmurray> I'm ready to vote.
<sil2100> BenC? micahg?
<micahg> ready
<sil2100> I guess we're good then
<sil2100> #vote Grant ddstreet SRU Developer
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant ddstreet SRU Developer
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<bdmurray> -1 I'd like to see more involvement in the SRU process before granting you upload rights.
<meetingology> -1 I'd like to see more involvement in the SRU process before granting you upload rights. received from bdmurray
<micahg> +0 , while the quality of work is good so far, it's a bit sporadic, also, I applaud your desire to sponsor uploads, but I don't feel that in and of itself is a reason to grant upload rights, I look forward to seeing you back soon with more SRUs completed when we can hopefully grant you SRU upload permissions
<meetingology> +0 , while the quality of work is good so far, it's a bit sporadic, also, I applaud your desire to sponsor uploads, but I don't feel that in and of itself is a reason to grant upload rights, I look forward to seeing you back soon with more SRUs completed when we can hopefully grant you SRU upload permissions received from micahg
<bdmurray> Perhaps one way to do that is looking at some things in the SRU queue and then getting an SRU team member endorsement.
<sil2100> +0, all good skill-wise but I also think it's a bit too soon, certainly a passing vote after a short while of more uploads + endorsements
<meetingology> +0, all good skill-wise but I also think it's a bit too soon, certainly a passing vote after a short while of more uploads + endorsements received from sil2100
<ddstreet> bdmurray micahg sil2100 sounds good, i'm happy to reapply after adding some more sponsored sru uploads...you guys don't mind me bugging you to sponsor my uploads right? ;-)
<sil2100> ddstreet: not at all! It would be a pleasure - I'd say keep up on uploading through sponsors and we'd gladly review you again in a month or so
<sil2100> Or whenever you're ready
<ddstreet> awesome.  thnx all
<sil2100> ddstreet: thanks!
<sil2100> #topic PPU Applications
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | DMB Meeting | Current topic: PPU Applications
<sil2100> #subtopic David Mohammed (fossfreedom)
<sil2100> fossfreedom: o/
<fossfreedom> :)
<sil2100> fossfreedom: could you introduce yourself? Since some of us might not know you yet!
<sil2100> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/fossfreedom/UbuntuBudgieDevApplication <- application
<fossfreedom> hi - my name is david mohammed - I am the project lead of ubuntu budgie
<fossfreedom> I am applying for PPU for the packages listed in my application
<fossfreedom> my work crosses both debian and ubuntu
<fossfreedom> the packages I have either created myself and maintain
<fossfreedom> or the package I have a direct interest due to Ubuntu Budgie
<sil2100> Sorry for the interruption, but I just got reminded that we need to close the previous vote
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant ddstreet SRU Developer
<meetingology> Votes for:0 Votes against:1 Abstentions:2
<meetingology> Motion denied
<sil2100> Ok, please continue ;p
<fossfreedom> ok - sorry - any Q's for me?
<sil2100> I've sponsored some packages for you already and I remember not having any issues as to their contents, which is good
<bdmurray> I only see one endorsement on your application, is there a reason for this?
<jbicha> bdmurray: I see 4
<sil2100> bdmurray: yeah, there's 4
<jbicha> I strongly endorse his application. I haven't updated my endorsement since his last application in December
<jbicha> I think LocutusOfBorg's endorsement might be old too?
<bdmurray> Sorry I thought the rest were comments.
<micahg> right ,just one new endorsement since December
<sil2100> Well, it's all good
<sil2100> fossfreedom: tell me, when would be the usual cut-off 'date' after which you cannot upload NEW packages (by new I mean not-existing in the Ubuntu archive yet)?
<fossfreedom> freeze date - little late this cycle - just past in late august
<fossfreedom> idea would be to work with debian preferably
<sil2100> Which freeze that would be?
<fossfreedom> but definitely a couple of months before hand
<sil2100> Since there's a lot of different freezes in the archive ;)
<fossfreedom> debian freeze
<fossfreedom> the auto sync with debian to ubuntu
<sil2100> And what would you do if Ubuntu is in Feature Freeze already and need such a brand new package released to Ubuntu?
<fossfreedom> feature freeze is tied to debian freeze this cycle
<sil2100> By need I mean, suddenly really need it for good reasons
<fossfreedom> question very hard if it is really needed first of all
<fossfreedom> usually not
<fossfreedom> but if necessary FFE - feature freeze exception
<sil2100> But let's assume it's really needed, can you still get it in?
<sil2100> Yeah
<sil2100> BenC, bdmurray, micahg: any questions?
<bdmurray> Not from me.
<micahg> fossfreedom: I seem to recall Budgie was mainly going through Debian and there were mostly syncs happening, did something change?
<fossfreedom> in terms of budgie-desktop - upstream pull a rabbit out of their hat.  It came late this cycle
<fossfreedom> debian also had lots of issues with the new queue
<fossfreedom> so the sync would not occur before debian freeze
<micahg> is Ubuntu the upstream for the budgie packages??
<micahg> the ones not in Debian I mean
<fossfreedom> upstream - budgie-desktop github.com/budgie-desktop/budgie-desktop
<jbicha> in a way, I think Ubuntu is the upstream for the Debian packages too ;)
<micahg> right, but what about packages like budgie-welcome, budgie-desktop-environment
<fossfreedom> those two are specific to ubuntu - they are at the heart of ubuntu budgie.  They are written specifically for us and would not work with Debian
<sil2100> Any other questions?
<sil2100> I'm poking since we're again over our scheduled time here
<BenC> Iâm good
<sil2100> micahg: you have any more questions?
<sil2100> I assume not in this case, let's vote
<sil2100> #vote Grant fossfreedom PPU permissions for the listed package set
<meetingology> Please vote on: Grant fossfreedom PPU permissions for the listed package set
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<sil2100> Packageset list: budgie-desktop, budgie-desktop-environment, budgie-artwork, budgie-welcome, budgie-wallpapers, arc-theme, moka-icon-theme, faba-icon-theme, rhythmbox-plugin-alternative-toolbar, budgie-indicator-applet, slick-greeter and ubuntu-budgie-meta
<sil2100> (so it's in the logs)
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
<sil2100> BenC, micahg: ?
<BenC> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from BenC
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Grant fossfreedom PPU permissions for the listed package set
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> fossfreedom: congratulations!
<fossfreedom> cheers all - much appreciated!
<sil2100> Who will take care of creating the packageset etc.?
<micahg> a personal package set might be useful,, needs to be a TB member to create, but then we can maintain
<sil2100> Any volunteers to drive this? ;)
<bdmurray> I think I'll be emailing them anyway re the election so could get it setup
<sil2100> bdmurray: thanks!
<sil2100> #action bdmurray to handle the PPU role for fossfreedom
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray to handle the PPU role for fossfreedom
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> No vote in progress
<sil2100> Eh, stupid copy-paste
<sil2100> #topic AOB
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<sil2100> bdmurray: ok, you wanted to discuss the vote results?
<bdmurray> micahg: What did you mean by certify the election?
<micahg> vote to acknowledge the results of the election
<sil2100> The TB?
<micahg> both
<bdmurray> Why would I not vote +1?
<micahg> it's usually a formality
<sil2100> Is that always been like that?
<micahg> yeah
<bdmurray> Okay, just wondering.
<micahg> it's just a safeguard
<sil2100> So let's vote then
<bdmurray> Guess what mine is!
<sil2100> #vote Vote to acknowledge the results of the election
<meetingology> Please vote on: Vote to acknowledge the results of the election
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<sil2100> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from sil2100
<micahg> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from micahg
<bdmurray> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from bdmurray
 * sil2100 looks at BenC
<sil2100> *stare*
<sarnold> BenC: (some clients only highlight on the nick in the first token)
<sil2100> micahg: hmm, but how is this vote counted then?
<BenC> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from BenC
<sil2100> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Vote to acknowledge the results of the election
<meetingology> Votes for:4 Votes against:0 Abstentions:0
<meetingology> Motion carried
<sil2100> BenC: thanks!
<BenC> Sorry, Iâm doing my best to stay focused for quorum
<sil2100> micahg: since we don't actually need 4 + anyway, since there's only 5 people potentially that could vote
<sil2100> So 3 + were anyway sufficient I suppose
<sil2100> Anyway, all good
<sil2100> Now just the TB and we can officially welcome jbicha and cyphermox at the DMB
<sil2100> Ok, final thing from me
<micahg> sil2100: I think we'd still need +4 since the board is 7 members
<sil2100> BenC, micahg, bdmurray: there's an ongoing application of rbalint through e-mail
<sil2100> micahg: yeah but how can we expect 7 peolpe to vote
<micahg> right, I'll try to get to that later today
<sil2100> micahg: since we're voting for the 2 people that we're missing
<BenC> Me too
<micahg> sil2100: we can't, but I don' t think that changes quorum
<sil2100> micahg: this would be a bit absurd IMO
<sil2100> But anyway
<sil2100> Not a problem this time I guess!
<sil2100> micahg, BenC: thanks!
<micahg> IMHO it's the equivalent of 2 members on extended vacation
<bdmurray> So two actions more for me?
<bdmurray> email TB re election then announce the results?
<sil2100> #action bdmurray to contact TB regarding the election
<meetingology> ACTION: bdmurray to contact TB regarding the election
<sil2100> bdmurray: if you want, we can share some of those tasks
<sil2100> Want me to send out the result announcement?
<bdmurray> sil2100: Sure, I'll let you know when I hear from the TB
<LocutusO-> congrats! yes my advocacy was a little bit old, but it was still valid :)
<sil2100> #action sil2100 to send out the results announcement after the TB decision is known
<meetingology> ACTION: sil2100 to send out the results announcement after the TB decision is known
<sil2100> Any other business?
<sil2100> LocutusO-: ;)
<bdmurray> Nope
<sil2100> Ok, let's assume we're all good now
<sil2100> o/
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep 11 20:25:54 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-09-11-19.08.moin.txt
<sil2100> Thanks everyone!
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-09-12
<ahasenack> #startmeeting ubuntu-server-team
<meetingology> Meeting started Tue Sep 12 16:00:27 2017 UTC.  The chair is ahasenack. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic:
<powersj> o/
<ahasenack> #topic Review ACTION points from previous meeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting
<ahasenack> 2 for nacc:
<ahasenack> * nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<ahasenack> * nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<nacc> ahasenack: carry
<ahasenack> carry over?
<ahasenack> ok
<ahasenack> #ACTION nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: nacc to write a release notes entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<ahasenack> #ACTION nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: nacc to write a server guide entry on ipv6 netboot (carried over)
<ahasenack> * rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<ahasenack> he is off this week, so I will carry over
<ahasenack> #ACTION rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<meetingology> ACTION: rbasak to add maintainership info to mysql triage page (carried over)
<ahasenack> #topic Artful Development
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Artful Development
<ahasenack> #link https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtfulAardvark/ReleaseSchedule
<ahasenack> next important date is...
<ahasenack> final beta on the 28th
<ahasenack> and final beta freeze the monday before, so 25th
<ahasenack> #subtopic Current Work
<ahasenack> #link https://trello.com/b/U9HhWyT0/daily-ubuntu-server
<ahasenack> that's our public trello board
<cpaelzer> o/ late
<ahasenack> we had two review columns (lists) in there, they were merged into one earlier this week
<ahasenack> there was no need for such fine grained detail
<ahasenack> now it fits in most widescreen monitors :)
<ahasenack> #subtopic Release Bugs
<ahasenack> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<ahasenack> I think if someone is working on a bug that he/she wants in artful, it should be nominated as such, then it will show up in this list
<ahasenack> bugfix*, rather :)
<ahasenack> I don't think the server team is using the milestones, at least I haven't seen them being used
<ahasenack> but there is a 17.10 milestone for ubuntu
<ahasenack> any comments?
<ahasenack> moving on
<cpaelzer> yes
<cpaelzer> (to moving on)
<ahasenack> ah :)
<ahasenack> #topic Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Server & Cloud Bugs & SRU/Pending Uploads (slashd, ddstreet)
<ahasenack> ddstreet: anything for us?
<ddstreet> only update is the percona lp bug has a new patch attached that fixes the FTBFS
<ddstreet> waiting for rbasak to review it
<ddstreet> no other updates from STS team
<ahasenack> he is on PTO this week
<ahasenack> do you have a link to that bug?
<ahasenack> so we can record it here
<ddstreet> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/percona-xtradb-cluster-5.5/+bug/1657256
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1657256 in percona-xtradb-cluster-5.6 (Ubuntu) "Percona crashes when doing a a 'larger' update" [Medium,In progress]
<ahasenack> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/percona-xtradb-cluster-5.5/+bug/1657256
<ahasenack> ddstreet: is that fixed in artful?
<ddstreet> the patch is for artful
<ahasenack> ok
<ahasenack> hm, this bug should show up in the artful report from earlier
<nacc> ahasenack: no, it's not targetting artful explicitly
<nacc> hence why the above report is basically terminally brokenn
<ahasenack> I added an artful nomination
<nacc> we don't use it
<ahasenack> if it's accepted, then it would show up there I think
<nacc> ahasenack: yes, but it's not necessary in general
<ahasenack> can someone other than rbasak review that? If not, then only when he is back, very close to the beta freeze
<ahasenack> moving on
<ddstreet> it would be great it anyone else could review it, though it can wait if not
<ahasenack> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-z-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<ahasenack> and
<ahasenack> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-x-tracking-bug-tasks.html#ubuntu-server
<ahasenack> if someone wants to call out any specific bugs
<ahasenack> moving on
<ahasenack> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | ubuntu-server-team Meeting | Current topic: Weekly Updates & Questions for the QA Team (powersj)
<powersj> Server ISOs are currently red due to a priority change, causing testing to fail. The priority change was with console-setup. A fix is committed, however, as of today I still see failures. Also ppc64el testing is on hold due to LP: #1709784
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1709784 in linux (Ubuntu Xenial) "KVM on 16.04.3 throws an error" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1709784
<powersj> Last week also helped the git-ubuntu folks get linting and integration testing added to their CI. yea! \o/
<powersj> This week my hope is to land the KVM backend for cloud-init testing and get ISO tests going again.
<powersj> #info ISO testing is blocked by console-setup issues
<powersj> #info git-ubuntu has CI
<ahasenack> #link https://launchpad.net/bugs/1709784
<ahasenack> thanks powersj
<ahasenack> oops, missed a link
<ahasenack> #link https://jenkins.ubuntu.com/server/
<ahasenack> moving on
<ahasenack> #topic Weekly Updates & Questions for the Kernel Team (smb, sforshee)
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<smb> Artful kernel will switch to 4.13 with the next proposed migration. Not sure how soon that is as this week there is Linux Plumbers which some attend.
<smb> That would be all if there are no questions
<ahasenack> thanks smb
<ahasenack> #topic Upcoming Call For Papers
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<ahasenack> #link https://lwn.net/Calendar/Monthly/cfp/
<ahasenack> I see https://cfp.openfest.org/?locale=en on the 15th
<ahasenack> netdev  http://www.netdevconf.org/2.2/submit-proposal.html on the 20th
<ahasenack> t-dose https://www.t-dose.org/2017/cfp on the 30th
<ahasenack> #topic Ubuntu Server Team Events
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<ahasenack> none that I'm aware of?
<ahasenack> ok, last topic
<ahasenack> #topic Open Discussion
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<ahasenack> anyone want to bring something up?
<ahasenack> #topic Announce next meeting date, time and chair
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<ahasenack> #info Next meeting Tuesday, 2017-09-19 at 1600 UTC, chair will be cpaelzer
<ahasenack> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Tue Sep 12 16:19:24 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-09-12-16.00.moin.txt
<powersj> thanks ahasenack
<cpaelzer> thanks ahasenack, sorry for being distracted today
<ahasenack> :)
<MajB> AZLOCO Team is present and prepared for reverification
 * markthomas is here for that. 
 * toddc is here
<toddc> Go ubuntu-az
 * MajB is here
<markthomas> We figured that the first time you spoke.
<MajB> Well I was just following suit
<MajB> I didn't have any trump anyway
<MajB> Now all we need is the LoCo Council members
<markthomas> MajB you arenât running this time around?
<markthomas> Iâd vote for you.
<MajB> This certainly cannot be a repeat of 2015.
<MajB> wxl status
<markthomas> crickets chirping.
<toddc> give it 5 more?
<MajB> wxl is on line but probably away from his computer.
<MajB> It is their agenda.
<MajB> They have known about this for a month.  Perhaps that is why we have so few verified Ubuntu LoLo Teams
<wxl> i'm here
<wxl> unfortunately i do have work which sadly takes precedence
<wxl> do we have any other loco members?
<MajB> I believe you are the only one present
<wxl> unfortunately very little is going to be done wrt to decision making if there are no others
<wxl> let me do some poking
<wxl> i have now tried to reach out to members of the loco council and the larger community council and have not heard back from anyone
<MajB> Recommendation?
<wxl> i would suggest that we handle the re-verification by email
<wxl> in reality, you folks are in no danger of not getting re-verified :)
<MajB> We are aware of that but we still need to be approved.
<wxl> typically we do this via bugs to track everything. i'll get in touch with you ASAP about it
<wxl> remind me your launchpad again?
<wxl> (the team)
<MajB> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-arizona
<wxl> 1s
<MajB> Revalidation application:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArizonaTeam/Re-validationApplication2017
<wxl> ah good
<wxl> you don't expired until november. i'm sure we can get this done well ahead of time
<wxl> should some monkey wrench keep it from happening in a timely manner, i will gladly extend your status in ~locoteams-verified until that time which we can get this all fixed
<wxl> again, apologies
<MajB> expires 17 September
<wxl> https://launchpad.net/~locoteams-verified/+members#active
<wxl> @meetingology 2017-11-17
<wxl> oops
<wxl> i have no idea how that call to meetingology got in there O_O
<markthomas> It does say november on that link.
<wxl> do you agree with markthomas, MajB, or are you seeing something different?
<MajB> I had a link that said 17 Sep but I will accept 17 Nov if you say so
<wxl> if you have an email with that link in it, click on the link. it should show the november one
<wxl> if that's not the case, please get in touch
<toddc> I belive I deleted it and just planed on todays meeting
<toddc> in past we have had delays so it may be that the remindwe is based on the original date vs our last renewall date
<wxl> yeah probably
<wxl> and this is an especially tight period for the LoCo Council
<wxl> i technically expired but in lieu of having any additional candidates, i offered to step up and help
<wxl> that said, if you could extend a little patience to us, we will make sure to get you verified
<toddc> lat time we had the same issue that delayed aproval for several months
<wxl> i will also ensure that you do not expire from the verified list, so that you can reap the benefits thereof
<toddc> minor details
<wxl> yes, all i can say is i'm sorry :(
<toddc> no problem just let us know what we can do
<wxl> i will absolutely be in touch
<toddc> thank you
<wxl> thank you all!
<toddc> Thanks to all that showed up to support az
#ubuntu-meeting 2017-09-14
<sil2100> o/
<Tribaal> o/
 * slangasek waves
<rbalint> o/
<Odd_Bloke> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Sep 14 15:02:59 2017 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke tribaal fginther)
<slangasek> fginther slangasek tribaal xnox infinity rbalint Odd_Bloke mwhudson rcj tdaitx sil2100 cyphermox philroche bdmurray doko
<slangasek> fginther: hello!
<fginther> hello
<fginther> * Short week due to vacation
<fginther> * Integrating the linux-azure kernel into daily images.
<fginther> * Built an updated WSL appx to upload to the windows store
<fginther> done
<fginther> slangasek, you're up
<fginther> Oh one more
<fginther> * debug a partner networking issue
<fginther> and done again
<slangasek>  * short week, on vacation all last week
<slangasek>  * [HIGHLIGHT] Ubuntu for containers on Windows released this week!
<slangasek>  * working this week on un-breaking cloud image builds, still down following the launchpad lxd transition
<slangasek>  * chasing autopkgtests for proposed-migration (glibc)
<slangasek>  * working on removing dependencies on initramfs-tools, for minimization of images (LP: #1716825, LP: #1716818, LP: #1713169)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1716825 in plymouth (Ubuntu Zesty) "Remove unnecessary dependency on initramfs-tools" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1716825
<slangasek> (done)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1716818 in mdadm (Ubuntu Xenial) "Remove obsolete versioned dependency on initramfs-tools" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1716818
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1713169 in apparmor (Ubuntu Xenial) "Remove wrong dependency on initramfs-tools" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1713169
<Tribaal> * Investigation of docker-on-cloud-images memory usage
<Tribaal> * Fixing a package upgrade weirdness with grub-legacy-ec2 on xenial images
<Tribaal> * Various reviews and fixes
<Tribaal> Done.
<Tribaal> xnox:
<xnox> rax / mdadm shutdown bug - introducing iscsi like finalramfs does not appear to help; will request debug shutdown console log.
<xnox> subiquity - continuing to work on colors and i18n
<xnox> cloud-images - assisting / debugging / waiting to fix cloud-image building (timeouts on metadata server, LXD/s390x changes, general debugging)
<xnox> WSL - review fginther appx.
<xnox> systemd - progress on better resolved integration (not uploaded)
<xnox> done
<slangasek> infinity absent
<slangasek> rbalint:
<rbalint> * worked on https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/09/13/running-ubuntu-containers-with-hyper-v-isolation/
<rbalint> * u-u: LP: #1624644 and other bugs
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1624644 in update-manager (Ubuntu Artful) "Unable to automatically remove packages that become unused in conjunction with updating by other software" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1624644
<rbalint> * moved everything forward in main on http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/ that was not being worked on actively
<rbalint> * +1-maint: LP: #1715167 (fixing in a different way, still looking for sponsor), #874522 (take patch)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1715167 in nagios-nrpe (Ubuntu) "FTBFS in Artful" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1715167
<rbalint> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> * On vacation; back yesterday
<Odd_Bloke> * Working to get xenial builds in to good shape after lxd builder migration
<Odd_Bloke> * Getting GCE testing working; need further investigation of potential networking issues
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<slangasek> rcj is traveling
<slangasek> tdaitx:
<tdaitx> Short week: sick since Tue night/Wed early morning, recovering
<tdaitx> * Investigating Debian Bug #874434
<tdaitx> * Started local rebuilds with OpenJDK 9 as default-jre/jdk
<tdaitx> * Other: away next week wed-fri
<ubottu> Debian bug 874434 in src:openjdk-8 "openjdk-8-jre-headless: uninstallable on armhf" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/874434
<tdaitx> (done)
<doko> tdaitx: does this affect us as well?
<sil2100> - Was half-day off on Wednesday
<sil2100> - Released a new google-cloud-sdk (version 169)
<sil2100> - DMB meeting:
<sil2100>   * Usual candidate reviews and duties
<sil2100>   * Announcing and onboarding the one new board member (HIGHLIGHT?)
<sil2100> - Prepared and released update-manager fix for autopkgtest regression
<sil2100> - Kernel SRU re-spin reviews
<sil2100> - Add additional fixes to the kernel-sru-review ESM support branch
<tdaitx> doko, I saw it today, I'm still checking that... need an armhf for that
<sil2100> - Regular SRU reviews
<sil2100> - ubuntu-image:
<sil2100>   * Full review and discussion regarding the classic builder branch
<sil2100>   * Prepared and merged some basic man-page documentation of hooks
<sil2100> - Dealing with mysterious local ssh problems
<sil2100> - Spinning and re-spinning of ubuntu-core plano images (15.04 based)
<sil2100> (done)
<slangasek> cyphermox: around?
<slangasek> philroche is out
<slangasek> bdmurray:
<bdmurray> SRU review of python3.5 again
<bdmurray> special Zesty SRU release of nova for coreycb
<bdmurray> special SRU review of livecd-rootfs for X and Z, +2
<bdmurray> review of plasma-workspace halted phased update / email reply
<bdmurray> investigation into, fixed phased-updater failure to email sponsees(?)
<bdmurray> updated test case for xfsprogs (LP: #1696102)
<bdmurray> reviewed sil2100's MP re: update-manager test failure
<bdmurray> uploaded zesty, artful fixes for LP: #1676547
<bdmurray> reported gnome-shell bug re window switching LP: #1716415
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1696102 in xfsprogs (Ubuntu Zesty) "xfs/073 test fails with Metadata corruption detected on xfs file system (xfsprogs)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1696102
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1676547 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "No network connectivity after upgrade from 16.04 to 16.10" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1676547
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1508146 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #1716415 Alt+left/right arrows switch between tty consoles (Gnome Shell vanishes), cannot disable" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1508146
<bdmurray> discussion with cyphermox regarding small /boot
<bdmurray> submitted partman-auto bug re: small /boot (LP: #1716999)
<bdmurray> emailed TB re DMB election results
<bdmurray> reviewed rbalint's core developer application
<bdmurray> submitted bug for TB re fossfreedom packageset (LP: #1716770)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1716999 in partman-auto (Ubuntu) "installer creates rather small /boot partition" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1716999
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1716770 in ubuntu-community "[TB/DMB] New packageset ~personal-fossfreedom in Artful" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1716770
<bdmurray> investigation into LP: #1689668 and LP: #1690541
<bdmurray> dealt with a huge ton of spam / setup a system to handle it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1689668 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu Artful) "dialog to resolve config file conflicts can be only one line high" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1689668
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1690541 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Scrolled windows in update-manager are too small to read" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1690541
<bdmurray> â done
<bdmurray> doko:
<doko> - worked on the artful museum of llvm-X.Y versions
<doko> - fixing older gcc's to build in artful
<doko> - fixing autopkg tests, a lot ...
<doko> - more maven fixes
<doko> - fixing build failures
<doko> - still looking at debug symbols size explosion by a factor of five on arm64 and ppc64el, only seen with llvm
<doko>  builds
<doko> - been on the GNU Cauldron from Fri-Sun
<doko> (done)
<slangasek> any questions on status?
<sil2100> All good
<slangasek> conferences seem like they should be highlights for this week
<slangasek> so, highlight: GNU Cauldron, Linux Plumbers
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: bugs to discuss today?
<bdmurray> bug 1711358 is newly tagged
<ubottu> bug 1711358 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "20170817 - ISO hangs on boot on qemu with splash screen enabled and qxl graphics driver" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1711358
<slangasek> [LINK] http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-aa-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<slangasek> [LINK] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1711358
<slangasek> bdmurray: I think we should decline that one, at least for Foundations; we don't have the resources to debug the interactions between plymouth and all of the qemu video drivers
<slangasek> anything else on bugs, then?
<rbalint> LP: #1439769 would be needed in Trusty, too, IMO, it plays really bad with u-u
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1439769 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "various linux packages being marked as manually installed, still prevents 'apt-get autoremove' from doing the right thing for kernels" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1439769
<bdmurray> bug 1619258 is new too
<ubottu> bug 1619258 in nplan (Ubuntu) "netplan should allow NICs to be disconnected and not stall the boot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1619258
<xnox> i think that is actually systemd
<xnox> but maybe not
<slangasek> rbalint: well, diminishing returns on fixing such things for LTS-1
<slangasek> users have been dealing with this bug already for 3 years on trusty...
<slangasek> related bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nplan/+bug/1716500
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1714301 in systemd (Ubuntu Artful) "duplicate for #1716500 systemd-networkd hangs my boot (wireless)" [High,Confirmed]
<ogra_> hah, xnox beats me on LP 1619258
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1619258 in nplan (Ubuntu) "netplan should allow NICs to be disconnected and not stall the boot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1619258
<slangasek> so I think the conclusion is that we do take 1714301 for now, and leave 1619258 incoming until we see if it shakes out from those fixes or if it needs additional attention
<slangasek> anything else on bugs?
<ogra_> i think 1619258 is a special case (systemd-networkd in xenial)
<ogra_> (might indeed be the same issue in the end)
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else on not-bugs?
<sil2100> https://code.launchpad.net/~sil2100/ubuntu-archive-tools/kernel-sru-review-esm/+merge/330212 <- need some review eyes here ;)
<doko> slangasek: glibc transition
<sil2100> Although seeing that I'm the only user of this script, might as well just merge it
<sil2100> (so far)
<slangasek> sil2100: is that different than the one apw asked me for review of?
<sil2100> slangasek: not sure, maybe it's the same - there's only one esm support branch I think
<doko> asking because I'd like to start a final test rebuild. which issues are essential to address before the migration
<slangasek> doko: remind me if there's a technical reason that the rebuild test can't include -proposed?
<sil2100> It's always useful to have someone looking through the code anyway, since when you're in it too long you stop noticing that things look strange
<slangasek> sil2100: maybe you can get apw to review it :)
<doko> slangasek: that's not we ship, and afaik that is not possible. for earlier test rebuild I had to do a separate test rebuild for each pocket
<sil2100> I guess I could! Maybe he'd start using the script as well
<slangasek> doko: but the normal archive builds always build /against/ -proposed; if we did that for the archive rebuild, that would surely give us what we want
<doko> no, not the test rebuilds
<slangasek> doko: and then you could decouple the start of the rebuild from the proposed-migration blockages
<slangasek> doko: well in any case, I am working on drilling down through the remaining failures
<slangasek> doko: my goal is EOD
<doko> sounds good. I'd like to catch cj watson tomorrow to create the test rebuilds before his EOW
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Sep 14 15:43:40 2017 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2017/ubuntu-meeting.2017-09-14-15.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, folks!
<sil2100> Thanks o/
<rbalint> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-09-10
<kyrofa> Hey folks
<kyrofa> This is the timeslot for the loco council meeting: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/Agenda . Is anyone from ubuntu-it around?
<gsilvapt_> Uff, here I am :)
<nhaines> gsilvapt_: welcome!  :)
<gsilvapt_> thank you, nhaines
<gsilvapt_> Are we all 4 ready?
<nhaines> Well, I'm ready, but the meeting's in 46 minutes, so I'm still a little busy.  :)
<gsilvapt_> Hum, right. The last meeting we had via IRC was in my previous timezone
<gsilvapt_> Summer time, etc etc
<nhaines> You're not the only one!  I keep UTC in my date/time indicator (yay Unity!) just for emergencies.  :)
<kyrofa> gsilvapt_, yep, same thing happened to me. I fixed my calendar entry now... I think
<nhaines> Okay, I think the time has rolled around now!
<nhaines> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Mon Sep 10 20:00:57 2018 UTC.  The chair is nhaines. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<nhaines> #chair Letozaf_ kyrofa gsilvapt
<meetingology> Current chairs: Letozaf_ gsilvapt kyrofa nhaines
<kyrofa> o/
<nhaines> Welcome to the September meeting of the Ubuntu Local Community Council!
<Letozaf_> o/
<nhaines> gsilvapt: you around?  :)
<gsilvapt_> Ready
<nhaines> \o/
<nhaines> #chair gsilvapt_
<meetingology> Current chairs: Letozaf_ gsilvapt gsilvapt_ kyrofa nhaines
<gsilvapt_> Sorry, was cleaning up the kitchen and dishes
<nhaines> #unchair gsilvapt
<meetingology> Current chairs: Letozaf_ gsilvapt_ kyrofa nhaines
<nhaines> Glad you cold make it.  :)  It looks as though we have a quorum.
<nhaines> Okay, lesta's take a look at our agenda items.
<nhaines> s/lesta's/let's/
<nhaines> #topic German Ubuntu LoCo Team re-verification
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: German Ubuntu LoCo Team re-verification
<nhaines> This is on the agenda, but we've worked on this via a Launchpad bug.
<gsilvapt_> Haven't we all vote in LP?
<nhaines> So rather than vote here, I'd like to simply announce that the re-verification is approved, and congratulate the German Team for all of their substantial and hard work!
<nhaines> I wish you luck planning a new UbuCon Germany so that I have an excuse to travel and eat up all of your country's food.  :D
<Letozaf_> Congrats
<nhaines> #topic Italian Ubuntu LoCo Team re-verification
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Italian Ubuntu LoCo Team re-verification
<nhaines> Next up on the agenda, we have the Italian Team's re-verification.  Their application is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ItalianTeam/ReApprovalApplication2018
<nhaines> Do we have anyone from the Italian team present?
<nhaines> Well, we can definitely vote on this in abstentia if no one has further questions for the Italian team.
<nhaines> I do not, and am ready to vote.
<Letozaf_> so am I, I am also ready to vote
<kyrofa> I'm trying to get a feeling for a plan for the future
<Letozaf_> oops I do not vote here :-P
<nhaines> Letozaf_: :D
<kyrofa> They list 2018-2019 meetings as planned, but don't give any idea of what those might be
<kyrofa> The past events link shows one event in 2016 and one event in 2017
<nhaines> It looks like they're looking to finish their website and maybe host an UbuCon in the future.
<nhaines> I note that their social media channels are quite active.
<kyrofa> I saw that as well
<nhaines> I think they have some momentum, and if they can organize an UbuCon, that will be a big deal.
<kyrofa> I don't know, "maybe we'll host an ubucon" does not seem like they're actively working on things, and the website has been years in the making
<gsilvapt_> They seem active but I didn't like that bit kyrofa mentioned
<gsilvapt_> (the first about "maybe")
<nhaines> Yes, but the Ubuntu Europe Federation has caused a lot of teams to collaborate toward a larger event, and put regional UbuCons on the back burner so to speak.
<gsilvapt_> And are they involved in the EF?
<kyrofa> Note that their mailing list sees some traffic
<gsilvapt_> I only know of Portugal and France's involvement but I am sure I'm not up to speed on that topic
<nhaines> gsilvapt: I am not certain on the details of the EF.  I should probably get in touch with some of the leaders and find out how it's progressing.  It's only been around for a couple of months but everyone at UbuCon Europe seemed happy about it.
<nhaines> So it looks like Italy has a strong online presence but their physical in-person events have dropped off a bit.
<gsilvapt_> Hmhm, true
<gsilvapt_> I can ask around to the only person I know in the EF
<nhaines> Okay, let's do that in any case.
<nhaines> The Ubuntu Europe Federation was very concerned that they have our approval because they didn't want to overstep their bounds, but as far as I was concerned, LoCo teams working together is nothing we should interfere with.
<nhaines> So instead, if we can help in any way that's great!
<gsilvapt_> Yes, we discussed that before and agreed that should be our position
<nhaines> Yup, but it does mean sometimes we're a little out of the loop.
<gsilvapt_> Due to their lack of presencial activities, should we postpone the decision for later depending on what we can get from our contacts?
<gsilvapt_> If they had someone around we could ask but...
<nhaines> Do we want to vote on the Italian Team's application at this time or do we want to postpone it for next time?
<nhaines> Maybe we should move it to Launchpad and handle this via the bug tracker.  That will give them time to response when convenient.
<nhaines> s/response/respond/  (Guess it's one of those days.)
<kyrofa> Fine by me
<Letozaf_> sounds like a good idea
<nhaines> Let's make that official then.
<nhaines> #vote Move Italian Team re-verification to Launchpad
<meetingology> Please vote on: Move Italian Team re-verification to Launchpad
<meetingology> Public votes can be registered by saying +1, +0 or -1 in channel, (for private voting, private message me with 'vote +1/-1/+0 #channelname)
<nhaines> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from nhaines
<kyrofa> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from kyrofa
<gsilvapt_> +1
<meetingology> +1 received from gsilvapt_
<Letozaf_> +0
<meetingology> +0 received from Letozaf_
<nhaines> #endvote
<meetingology> Voting ended on: Move Italian Team re-verification to Launchpad
<meetingology> Votes for:3 Votes against:0 Abstentions:1
<meetingology> Motion carried
<nhaines> Okay, we'll move this to a private Launchpad bug and follow up directly with the Italian Team.  They're very responsive in email so I think that'll be a success.
<gsilvapt_> No pun intended? :P jk
<nhaines> :D
<nhaines> #topic Other business
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Other business
<nhaines> Anything else to discuss while we're all here?
<gsilvapt_> I wanted to see if it's worth it to review these application processes
<nhaines> How would you like to see them improved?
<gsilvapt_> The German experience was kind of unpleasant and it was hard to find information as to what to do
<gsilvapt_> As we did with the common responses, I think it would help if we have some guidelines as to how to approach LoCos in these cases and what needs to be done
<nhaines> The biggest problem there seems to be that the bug was misassigned.  Otherwise, the team contact would have received notifications.
<nhaines> But we can surely smooth that out with a direct email as well.
<gsilvapt_> Or just write some documentation on the Wiki pages. Wouldn't that help?
<gsilvapt_> We can always seek guidance there if we need
<nhaines> Better documentation is also good.  Our current guidelines are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/TeamVerificationGuidelines
<nhaines> Welcome back!
<gsilvapt_> Sorry, I disconnected accidentally
<nhaines> As I was saying, better documentation is always good.  Our current guidelines are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoCouncil/TeamVerificationGuidelines
<nhaines> If you want to look at that, we can definitely improve it if it's lacking.  Including how we reach out to verified teams.
<gsilvapt_> I guess I Will take the link you sent over and check if sounds clear enough for me and then I'll try proposing any changes I find adequate
<nhaines> That would be very much appreciated.  :)
<gsilvapt_> Sounds good to me!
<nhaines> Thank you!
<nhaines> Okay, anything else before we wrap things up?
<gsilvapt_> In another issue, Suujevan mentioned his term was ending soon
<kyrofa> Long past, I believe
<gsilvapt_> We should take the diligencies to elect someone to the council
<nhaines> I think he mentioned it already ended.  He was nice enough to stick around to help give some advice to newer members. :)
<gsilvapt_> Ahh, ok ok. Dumb me :'D
<nhaines> Yes, we should have the Community Council organize a call for members.
<gsilvapt_> Should we create any action items for that?
<gsilvapt_> I'm not sure how but meetingoly can do that
 * wxl hijacks meeting
<wxl> do we have any other folks who are going to expire any time soon?
<nhaines> A wild wxl appears!
<gsilvapt_> Or ask the council immediately :p
<nhaines> I forgot my current term length, to be honest.  XD
<nhaines> But yeah, we should make sure we're comprehensive in this.  Too many calls for nominations makes people tired and then we don't get any.
<wxl> yeah if you folks could do the checking there, let me know and i'll put the call out and get everything done
<wxl> in the meantime, we can coordinate with the community council in case you don't get quorum
<nhaines> Thank you!
<wxl> although that doesn't seem to be a problem :)
<nhaines> It's good to have options.  :)
<wxl> yep. do know i'm almost always around at this time. at work, but around
<nhaines> Good to know.
 * wxl goes back to lurking in the shadows
<nhaines> #action gsilvapt_ will review our re-verification documentation for areas of improvement.
<meetingology> ACTION: gsilvapt_ will review our re-verification documentation for areas of improvement.
<nhaines> Does anyone want to take a look at our membership and contact the Community Council to arrange new appointments?
<nhaines> #action nhaines review current LoCo Council membership terms and request new nominations from the Community Council
<meetingology> ACTION: nhaines review current LoCo Council membership terms and request new nominations from the Community Council
<Letozaf_> We all expire on 2019-11-07 a part Nathan that has already expired
<nhaines> Oh, and who wants to create the Italian Team bug?
<Letozaf_> I better not, don't think it's a good idea
<gsilvapt_> I can give it a try
<nhaines> #action gsilvapt_ Create a bug for Italian Team re-verification
<meetingology> ACTION: gsilvapt_ Create a bug for Italian Team re-verification
<nhaines> gsilvapt_: it'll be good for you to experience as you review our documentation.  If you need help, you know where I am.  :)
<nhaines> Okay, we have the room for another 10 minutes.  Anything left?  :)
<gsilvapt_> Ok, thanks!
<nhaines> Okay, I think that wraps it up, then.  Until next time!
<nhaines> Thanks everyone for coming.
<Letozaf_> yw
<gsilvapt_> Thanks everyone!
<Letozaf_> thanks everyone
<nhaines> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Mon Sep 10 20:53:41 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-09-10-20.00.moin.txt
<Letozaf_> good night
<kyrofa> Thanks everyone
<mapreri> argh
<mapreri> damn
<mapreri> wxl: sorry, I managed to screw up with timezones
<mapreri> crap
<wxl> mapreri: re: the loco council meeting?
<mapreri> yep
<mapreri> I'm from ubuntu-it
<mapreri> Mattia R., etc
<wxl> you'll need to chat with the lococouncil i.e. nhaines kyrofa gsilvapt
<mapreri> the one that is expiring in very few hours nowâ¦
<mapreri> mh, wasn't you who answered my mail?
<mapreri> oh no, that was nhaines
<mapreri> wxl: sorry, no clue how I mixed you up
<wxl> mapreri: all good :)
<mapreri> oh, ok, I've read the backlog now
<mapreri> nhaines: kyrofa gsilvapt: so about that "maybe" for the ubucon, we just had some team members interested, who attended the last one and brought the topic to us (=> italian community council).  Except rising a ton of doubts and questions about what should be done to organize it, and tbh not even receiving interesting answers by those membersâ¦, we haven't done anything.  Let's just say is a thing that is in the back of hour minds t
<mapreri> o evaluate properly, nothing more.
<mapreri> just, please renew our status at least temporary again, last time we expired 2 weeks ago more than a dozen people came to us worried about what the hell was wrong with us expiring, and we expire in two hours only... :(
<mapreri> and tbh, it's nearly midnight here and I have to travel early morning tomorrow, so I'm going to sleep; but please do mail, IRC highlight, assign bugs, etc etc as needed! :)
<nhaines> mapreri: Thanks for the clarification!  And don't worry, you can reassure everyone that while the application is under review, everything is fine.  :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-09-11
<mapreri> nhaines: cool, and thank you for pushing backward the expiry!
<mapreri> Please tell me if I can do anything to make the process any easier for you.
#ubuntu-meeting 2018-09-13
 * slangasek waves
<juliank> o/
<fginther> o/
<aleks_bogdanov> o/
<sil2100> o/
<slangasek> #startmeeting
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Sep 13 15:02:06 2018 UTC.  The chair is slangasek. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Lightning round
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Lightning round
<slangasek> $ echo $(shuf -e slangasek bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson rcj philroche Odd_Bloke fginther juliank cshep aleks_bogdanov tobikoch)
<slangasek> fginther aleks_bogdanov tdaitx cshep bdmurray xnox philroche infinity cyphermox doko mwhudson sil2100 Odd_Bloke slangasek juliank rbalint rcj tobikoch
<slangasek> fginther: hello!
<fginther> * Out for three days on holiday
<fginther> * Created a new test image for a partner
<fginther> * Cloud image build system vanguarding
<fginther> * done
<rbalint> o/
<aleks_bogdanov> * working on simple streams exporters
<aleks_bogdanov> * getting to learn all the systems and processes
<aleks_bogdanov> * done
<tdaitx> Short week: last Friday, working 6h/day this week
<tdaitx> * fixed openjdk atk bridge error (LP: #1788250) a while ago
<tdaitx>   - provided package to the security team, released on Bionic yesterday
<tdaitx> * updated openjdk-lts sru exception, created ffe bug report (LP: #1791716)
<tdaitx> * provided debdiff for new openjdk-11/openjdk-lts to doko
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1788250 in openjdk-8 (Ubuntu) "AWT applications fail with java.awt.AWTError: Assistive Technology not found: org.GNOME.Accessibility.AtkWrapper" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1788250
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1791716 in java-common (Ubuntu) "FFe: sync java packages from Debian to fix OpenJDK 10/11 issues in Cosmic" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1791716
<tdaitx> * fixed orphanedold-dkms files, tested on Xenial, Bionic, and Cosmic, SRU for Xenial/Bionic and patch for Cosmic (LP: #1791959)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1791959 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu) "[SRU] remove orphaned initrd old-dkms files in /boot" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1791959
<tdaitx> * so far unable to cause sync to hang in order to reproduce LP: #1667512
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1667512 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu) "update-initramfs hangs on upgrade, dpkg unusable, unbootable system" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1667512
<tdaitx> (done)
<slangasek> cshep:
<cshep> working on updating image classes
<cshep> that's pretty much it. done
<bdmurray> committed a fix for an OOPS encounted when submitting crashes to daisy
<bdmurray>   https://oops.canonical.com/oops/?oopsid=OOPS-fed140a72ccf553f7f43898fbc0a8f4c
<bdmurray> submitted RT re daisy and apport code updates for the production Error Tracker
<bdmurray> modified upgrade-charm hooks in Error Tracker charms to use proper directories
<bdmurray> fixed cheetah issue w/ logrotation jobs for daisy and errors app servers
<bdmurray> sorted out issues with staging version of the Error Tracker
<bdmurray> submitted RT regarding staging errors frontends access to prod cassandra
<bdmurray> updated Error Tracker main page filtering to show only deb crashes and add a
<bdmurray> figured out how to and imported a snap crash into the staging version of the Error Tracker
<bdmurray>  selection for 'all other binary packages'
<bdmurray> updated Bionic release notes to include info re dropping of powerpc arch
<bdmurray> investigation into apport SRU regressions
<bdmurray> overrode increased rate of crashes for open-vm-tools after discussion w/ cpaelzar
<bdmurray> SRU verification of libc6 upgrade change (LP: #1787649)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1787649 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu Bionic) "ubuntu-release-upgrader crashed with SystemError: E:Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be caused by held packages." [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1787649
<bdmurray> review of didier's apport MP which fixes LP: #1791324
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1791324 in apport (Ubuntu Bionic) "/usr/share/apport/apport-gtk:KeyError:/usr/share/apport/apport-gtk@598:run_argv:run_crashes:run_crash" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1791324
<bdmurray> irc discussion with tdaitx re LP: #1791959 and old-dkms files
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1791959 in initramfs-tools (Ubuntu) "[SRU] remove orphaned initrd old-dkms files in /boot" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1791959
<bdmurray> ordered a dragonboard and parts
<bdmurray> â  done
<bdmurray> xnox:
<xnox> * smc-tools new upstream release LP: #1689782
<xnox> * PATH is broken, fixing everywhere:
<xnox>   LP: #1792004 LP: #1614080
<xnox>   https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/10073
<xnox> * openssh-server socket activation patches
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1689782 in smc-tools (Ubuntu) "[18.10 FEAT] New package: smc-tools >=1.1.0" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1689782
<xnox>   - done, reviewed with debian maintainers & foundations
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1792004 in systemd (Ubuntu) "built-in PATH seems to have sbin and bin out of order; and inconsistent" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1792004
<xnox>   - will clean-up more and post to systemd-devel review
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1614080 in bash (Ubuntu) "PATH contains dot when PATH is unset before running bash" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1614080
<xnox>   - also will post for review to openssh-portable
<xnox> * debugging finarld incomplete shutdown initrd generations
<xnox> done
<philroche> * Cloud image modification for partner clouds
<philroche> * Helping onboard new team members
<philroche> * Preparing for team sprint next week
<philroche> (done)
<philroche> cyphermox:
<cyphermox> - MIR: gpsd
<cyphermox> - SRU verifications for gnu-efi, shim 13 in trusty, shim 15 in bionic
<cyphermox> - fixing netplan autopkgtests prior to upload
<cyphermox> - optional-addresses upstream systemd work
<cyphermox> - merged mwhudson's optional-addresses code for netplan
<cyphermox> - plymouth fix for tty deactivation (LP: #1767918) and SRU to bionic
<cyphermox> - fwupdate: drop uefi artefacts
<cyphermox> - investigating missing MokSBStateRT in efivars
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1767918 in plymouth (Ubuntu Bionic) "Login password from GDM is shown in plain text on the VT1 console" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1767918
<cyphermox> - SRU syslinux with patch for gnu-efi 3.0.8 support in bionic
<cyphermox> - proposed-migration: looked into python-pkginfo
<cyphermox> (done)
<doko> - at the GNU Cauldron in Manchester from Thu to Mon
<doko> - working on toolchain SRUs with sil2001
<doko> - review all open MIRs
<doko> - archive work, toolchain updates
<doko> (done)
<doko> ohh, and started a cosmic test rebuild
<doko> http://people.canonical.com/~doko/ftbfs-report/test-rebuild-20180911-cosmic.html
<juliank> +1
<slangasek> xnox: do you suppose we could get a central writeup afterwards of how you expect PATH to work, so we a) know what would be a regression, and b) can make sure there are no holes in it?
<bdmurray> sil2100:
<sil2100> - Candidate reviews
<sil2100> - Kernel SRU reviews
<sil2100> - Regular SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - FFe reviews
<sil2100> - raspi3 u-i classic:
<sil2100>   * Adding some tweaks to ubuntu-image for easier kernel/initrd preparation
<sil2100>   * Figuring out the correct uboot.env for raspi3
<Odd_Bloke> slangasek: You want to understand the PATH forward?
<sil2100>   * Add some more changes to the gadget tree and livecd-rootfs to get proper boot contents
<sil2100>   * Multiple test image builds - final local image finally booting into the system on the rootfs
<sil2100> - Tweaks to the work-in-progress britney branch for SRU ADT regression handling, test suite additions
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, ahahhahahhaha
<sil2100> - Travel preparations
<xnox> slangasek, possibly.
<sil2100> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> * Visiting a partner last week, so playing catch-up this week
<Odd_Bloke> * Double-checked that microcode is correctly installed in bare metal images we provide to partners
<Odd_Bloke> * Met with our new folks for the first time!
<Odd_Bloke> * Continued work on streamlining the delivery of our images to GKE
<xnox> slangasek, but i would argue we should drop /usr/local and then people will stop listening
<Odd_Bloke> (done)
<Odd_Bloke> slangasek:
<xnox> slangasek, because e.g. unattended-upgrades.service should not have /usr/local in PATH
<doko> tdaitx: fyi: the above test rebuild is done using openjdk-11 as the default
<tdaitx> doko: ack, thanks for that!
<rbalint> xnox, why shouldn't u-u have /usr/local/bin ?
<tdaitx> doko: just for curiosity sake, does the rebuild respect the build dependebcy order at all?
<slangasek>  * SRU processing, there are some good shims and grubs running around
<slangasek>  * Support for nvidia modules in GKE
<slangasek>  * Preparing for keyring cabal activities during the sprint
<slangasek>  * proposed-migration wrangling
<slangasek>  * upcoming:
<slangasek>   * swapping tomorrow for sprint travel
<slangasek>   * travelling to sprint
<slangasek> (done)
<juliank> * submitted systemd-networkd state documentation PR (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/10033)
<juliank> * debugged packagekit -crashing- restarting when upgrading itself (bug 1790613) - hello, maintainer scripts!
<ubottu> bug 1790613 in packagekit (Ubuntu Bionic) "Regression: packagekit crashes updating itself to 1.1.9-1ubuntu2.18.04.1" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1790613
<juliank> * fixed ipxe FTBFS
<juliank> * fixed ipxe booting grub via shim in qemu (bug 1789319)
<ubottu> bug 1789319 in MAAS "Unable to load shimx64.efi using iPXE over UEFI" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1789319
<juliank> * some apt upstream discussions
<juliank> * reviewed an update-manager merge proposal from rbalint (https://code.launchpad.net/~rbalint/update-manager/retry-after-failed-transaction/+merge/354648)
<juliank> * submitted PR for networkd-dispatcher /etc overrides (https://gitlab.com/craftyguy/networkd-dispatcher/merge_requests/40)
<juliank> * merged newt for automake 1.16 (after a friendly request from LocutusOfBorg, who merged automake); reported some bugs in debian
<juliank> (done)
<rbalint> (short week)
<slangasek> rbalint:
<rbalint> * triaging unattended-upgrades regressions
<rbalint> * gardening update-manager bugs
<rbalint> * fixing LP: #1317164 and LP: #1791931 which have > 100 duplicates and lot of reported crashes
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1317164 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Show reason of TransactionFailed and let the user try again instead of crashing" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1317164
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1791931 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Update-manager crashes in _show_transaction due to packages being already removed" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1791931
<rbalint> * renaming WSL apps to proudly include LTS in the name
<rbalint> (done)
<doko> tdaitx: no. why would it be necessary?
<slangasek> xnox: I'm asking you for documentation, not a polemic
<slangasek> rcj:
<tdaitx> doko: hmm, I don't see maven, ant, or gradle there, is that expected?
<rcj> * Debugging and reported a missing dependency in linux-firmware (bug #1792189)
<ubottu> bug 1792189 in linux-firmware (Ubuntu) "linux-firmware does not depend on initramfs-tools" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1792189
<doko> tdaitx: still running ... blame the libreoffice/chromium/firefox test builds for the delay ...
<rcj> * cloud image development and fixes
<rcj> (done)
<tobikoch> * Learning about image building.
<tobikoch> * Debugging small problems related to that.
<tobikoch> (happy end)
<slangasek> tdaitx: it rebuilds using the main archive for build-dependencies, so in principle everything there should be buildable against itself now without bootstrapping
<slangasek> and anything that isn't is a failure
<xnox> rbalint, because /usr/local/bin/python3 breaks distro upgrades.
<slangasek> xnox: just create a systemd unit that watches for /usr/local/bin/python3 with inotify and deletes it
<tdaitx> slangasek: ack, thanks
<xnox> slangasek, excellent idea!
<rbalint> xnox, u-u does not really run during distro upgrades
<xnox> rbalint, /any/ package upgrade can fail... we have bugs...
<slangasek> any other questions on status?
<slangasek> [TOPIC] Bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Bugs
<slangasek> bdmurray: hello
<bdmurray> bug 1754777
<ubottu> bug 1754777 in casper (Ubuntu) "bionic casper nfsboot not reaching desktop env, failure to mount various kernel filesystems and /tmp" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1754777
<slangasek> bdmurray: I don't think casper nfs support is a priority for us
<cyphermox> people still use nfs?
<cyphermox> :D
<slangasek> doko: btw is that rebuild test going to show up at http://qa.ubuntuwire.org/ftbfs/rebuilds/ soon?
<bdmurray> Could somebody comment on the bug since it has a lot of people affected?
<slangasek> who are these lots of people that are affected?
<slangasek> if you're doing casper+nfs, you're doing something custom
<cyphermox> oh, actually
<cyphermox> could it be some kind of edubuntu thing maybe?
<slangasek> there's no edubuntu in 18.04
<cyphermox> no, but people do upgrade
<cyphermox> I wonder if it's casper used outside of for install purposes.
<doko> slangasek: no, using my modified ftbfs-report. and you wanted to review my changes and propose a package where to file these changes ...
<cyphermox> (not that it particularly changes whether we support nfs+casper really)
<doko> and only sending the annonucement once main has finished to build
<gaughen> I have a bug I wanted to ask about before we move on, slangasek
<slangasek> doko: afaik you still need to push changes to lp:~wgrant/lp-ftbfs-report/production
<rcj> suspenseful
<gaughen> https://bugs.launchpad.net/vaultlocker/+bug/1780332
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1780332 in cryptsetup (Ubuntu) "vaultlocker does not ensure that udev is triggered to create /dev/disk/by-uuid/<uuid-in-luks-header> symlink and fails" [Undecided,New]
<slangasek> doko: so you need wgrant to review rather than me
<doko> slangasek: we should add these scripts to some distro repo
<slangasek> doko: it should have its own repo, but you still need to negotiate that with wgrant to change which branch he's deploying from
<doko> well, next week. he got the same emails that you got
<doko> sil2100: sru ping?
<xnox> i'll comment on the bug
<slangasek> xnox: ta :)
<slangasek> bdmurray: other bugs?
<bdmurray> How about a crash? https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/ef53414acdfe092569388629a5c446880d0bcba1
<slangasek> are crashes bugs?
<rbalint> slangasek, they can become ones :-)
<slangasek> systemd-journald crashing
<slangasek> in fsync()
<slangasek> am I blind that I can't find here what signal it's crashing with?
<bdmurray> 6
<sil2100> doko: I just need the SRU verification steps mentioned on the tracking bugs and then it should be good to go
<cyphermox> slangasek: top of the screen, in the breadcrumbs thing
<cyphermox> ah, bdmurray already answered
<slangasek> oh, that's the 6? ok
<slangasek> so it's a SIGABRT
<juliank> similar to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1773148?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1773148 in systemd (Ubuntu Cosmic) "/lib/systemd/systemd-journald:6:fsync:fsync_directory_of_file:journal_file_rotate:do_rotate:server_rotate" [Undecided,New]
<juliank> both crash in fsync.c:27 with SIGABORT
<slangasek> rbalint, xnox: ^^ so should we be concerned about this, or does systemd-journald recover gracefully and this is a non-event?
<slangasek> since SIGABRT likely means journald itself thought there was a problem
<juliank> Probably systemd is aborting the syscall in fsync because the fsync hangs or something?
<juliank> same bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1750855 it seems
<ubottu> Error: launchpad bug 1750855 not found
<bdmurray> juliank: yeah, that was my thought
<slangasek> right, so I'm not sure that's user-affecting
<slangasek> or fixable in systemd
<juliank> Does systemd send SIGABRT to unresponsive services or something?
<slangasek> it will, yes
<slangasek> there's a keepalive on journald and I think logind
<slangasek> so a hanging fsync() could just be tripping the watchdog
<xnox> slangasek, juliank - systemd sends SIGABRT when internal timer times-out.
<slangasek> right
<xnox> because Watchdog= thing is set
<xnox> actually
<slangasek> we did change watchdog on some of the processes, didn't we?
<juliank> ok
<xnox> i thought we agreed to drop watchdog stanza on journald
<xnox> slangasek, yeah, that's what i thought.
<slangasek> well, I'm sure I opined that we should drop it
<xnox> maybe we only talked about it in portland
<slangasek> I don't know if it was agreed :)
<slangasek> xnox: so should we take this into the backlog?
<xnox> yeah
<slangasek> ok, doing
<bdmurray> that's it for me then
<xnox> i wonder if we can have a graceful watchdog, which instead of killing things, would log that "i would have killed it"
<slangasek> I'll take via bug #1750855
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 1750855 could not be found
<slangasek> [TOPIC] AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: AOB
<slangasek> anything else?
<bdmurray> then should we mark the ET created bug as a dupe of the private crash?
<slangasek> probably
<bdmurray> doing so
<slangasek> going once (AOB)
<gaughen> sold!
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Sep 13 15:50:05 2018 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2018/ubuntu-meeting.2018-09-13-15.02.moin.txt
<slangasek> thanks, all :)
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-09-09
<slashd> o/
<sil2100> o/
<slashd> sil2100, do we have anything on the agenda today ?
<slashd> I missed the last mtg
<sil2100> I was out as well, hmm
<rbasak> o/
<rbasak> This is my evening, so I'll stay until ten minutes past the hour to see if we can get quorum, then I'll be gone.
<slashd> cyphermox is attending a conference, so I'm not expecting him to join us.
<rbasak> Quorum timeout
 * rbasak EODs
<slashd> o/ rbasak
<slashd> sil2100, Let's call it a day then
<sil2100> I guess that makes sense
<sil2100> o/
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-09-10
<cpaelzer> source format 1.0
<cpaelzer> wc :-)
<cpaelzer> but true :-)
<cpaelzer> oh I realize why I'm lurking here - MIR Team in two minutes
<didrocks> old schoolÂ©
<cpaelzer> cyphermox: didrocks: jamespage: jdstrand: doko: ping for MIR Team IRC Meeting
<didrocks> hey hey
<didrocks> (I have nothing special to report here FTR)
<cpaelzer> I'm good as well, only wondering about the recent flatpack MIR activity
<cpaelzer> is that on you didrocks?
<didrocks> ah, I didn't follow that one, I can't find a MIR bug though on the flatpak packageâ¦
<didrocks> ah, libflatpak
<didrocks> let me handle it
<didrocks> I guess discussing directly to Robert in Paris will be quicker while being in the same room :)
<cpaelzer> yep
<cpaelzer> anyone else with active current topics?
<cpaelzer> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.searchtext=&orderby=-date_last_updated&field.status%3Alist=NEW&assignee_option=none&field.assignee=&field.subscriber=ubuntu-mir
<cpaelzer> there are more new MIRs it seems
<didrocks> some like gnupnp-av and gupnp-dlna needs a final ack now that they had a security review
<cpaelzer> didrocks: you handled those int he past
<cpaelzer> will you do the re-check on those?
<didrocks> yeah, if nobody beats me, that will be Paris material
<cpaelzer> libheif was under foundations control last time
<cpaelzer> leaves libxml, why is that here ...
<cpaelzer> ok by  raof
<cpaelzer> for wayland
<cpaelzer> I can take a look at this one if no one beats me
<cpaelzer> that was the list of NEW
<cpaelzer> the incompletes have nothing new, tpm2-tss (talked last week) being the last with an update
<cpaelzer> it seems we never officially started the meeting today, so no need to end id
<cpaelzer> if there is anything else by anyone else speak up ...
<didrocks> I think that's ok :)
<cyphermox> o/
<cpaelzer> hiho cyphermox
<cyphermox> sorry, I was at lunch
<cpaelzer> np
<cpaelzer> read the backlog and let us know if there is something to add
<cyphermox> didrocks: uh, why flatpak?
<cyphermox> that seems like something really unnecessary
<didrocks> cyphermox: I wasn't aware before this meeting as you can see on the backlog. Seems gnome-control-center is depending on libflatpak
<cyphermox> ah, sorry, I misread
<cyphermox> fair enough :)
<jdstrand> cpaelzer: sorry missed the ping but here if needed
<cpaelzer> jdstrand: np - we had no open items, do you have some to share?
<jdstrand> cpaelzer: I do not
#ubuntu-meeting 2019-09-12
<sil2100> o/
<juliank> o?
<rbalint> o/
<rbalint> o!
<waveform> o/
<waveform> o~
<juliank> o//
<sil2100> o;
<sil2100> #startmeeting Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team
<meetingology> Meeting started Thu Sep 12 15:02:07 2019 UTC.  The chair is sil2100. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology.
<meetingology> Available commands: action commands idea info link nick
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic:
<juliank> OoooooooooooooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOO
<sil2100> #topic Lightning rounds
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Lightning rounds
<sil2100> echo $(shuf -e vorlon bdmurray xnox tdaitx doko sil2100 rbalint infinity cyphermox mwhudson juliank waveform)
<sil2100> juliank rbalint vorlon tdaitx sil2100 mwhudson waveform bdmurray infinity xnox cyphermox doko
<sil2100> juliank: o/
<juliank> um
<juliank> s
<juliank> sorry system was freezing
<juliank> - uploaded iptables revert to legacy
<juliank> - verified the apt sru bugs
<juliank> - some apt discussions
<juliank> - fixed autopkgtest-cloud XSS issue and various follow ups on that one
<juliank> (done)
<rbalint> * prepared backports of wireshark 2.6.10 in ppa:rbalint/scratch2 for *-security
<rbalint> * fixed libcec FTBFS through Debian
<rbalint> * wrote scripts to easily rebuild package A and run autopkgtest of package B on it https://salsa.debian.org/rbalint/autopkgtest-bisector
<rbalint> * updated script for updating systemd to any upstream commit https://salsa.debian.org/systemd-team/systemd/merge_requests/49
<rbalint> * finished systemd 242 for Eoan LP: #1843755
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1843755 in systemd (Ubuntu) "[FFe] Please accept systemd 242 to Eoan " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1843755
<rbalint> * working on systemd 243 to get into shape for FANIMAL
<rbalint> (done)
<sil2100> vorlon: o/
<vorlon>  * short week, took Monday off
<vorlon>  * out tomorrow (travel swap for sprint)
<vorlon>  * proposed-migration: working through a lot of python NBS, openstack now almost done
<vorlon>  * finalizing kick-off message for ia32 packages discussion
<vorlon>  * filed a bug on autodep8 about it generating wrong python2 tests for python3-only packages, but not actually sure where autopkgtest pulls autodep8 from for running (https://bugs.debian.org/940001)
<ubottu> Debian bug 940001 in autodep8 "Source: python-foo + Binary: python3-foo + Binary: python-foo-common -> bad" [Normal,Open]
<vorlon> (done)
<sil2100> tdaitx: your turn, around?
<vorlon> oh also I guess ghc transition finished in the last week :)
<sil2100> Guess Tiago is gone?
<sil2100> Anyway, I'll go now
<sil2100> - SRU reviews and releases
<sil2100> - Kernel reviews
<sil2100> - FFe reviews
<sil2100> - Identified and fixed eoan update-manager regression caused by recent ubuntu-release-upgrader
<sil2100> - Reverted net-snmp in -updates due to a serious regression, fixed version now in -updates as well
<sil2100> - Reviewed and sponsored livecd-rootfs changes from Rob regarding explicit artifacts
<sil2100> - Merged the changes for adding the NoCloud datasource to all device-based ubuntu-image built images
<sil2100> - Sponsored livecd-rootfs changes for imx6 support
<sil2100> - Backported recent ubuntu-release-upgrader snap-handling changes to disco
<sil2100> - Migrated the canonistack bot instance from lcy02 to bos01
<sil2100> - Supported overriding EXTRA_SNAPS in livecd-rootfs via the environment
<sil2100> - Started experimenting with language-pack sanity-testing
<sil2100> - Discussed and prepared a spec for the ubuntu-image work needed for UC20 support
<sil2100> - Booking stuff for the release sprint
<sil2100> (done)
<waveform> * delved into migration of boot configuration on older platforms and edge cases
<waveform> * discovered various issues with ancient firmware (that shipped with bionic)
<waveform> * deduced a new config that works on both old and new firmwares
<waveform> * diagnosed an issue in livecd-rootfs: pi images no longer point the cloud-init seed to the boot partition (in the last hour - patch to be filed)
<waveform> * diddled the u-boot patches around until they made a vague sort of sense for submission
<waveform> * delighted in the production of a pi4 kernel by Hui Wang, and hence...
<waveform> * ditched my own efforts on the pi4 kernel, but then...
<waveform> * debated the possibilities of multiple kernels on an image with sil2100 and vorlon given that the new pi4 kernel efforts appear to be pi4 only (currently incompatible with older variants)
<waveform> done ... with apologies to bdmurray
<sil2100> hah!
<sil2100> Too bad Brian's not around to fully appreciate this
<sil2100> bdmurray is off today still I guess
<waveform> that's why I figured someone should take his shtick ;)
<sil2100> No infinity on the channel
<sil2100> Ah, he's out this week too
<sil2100> xnox is on plumbers I guess? Same for cyphermox?
<waveform> yup
<sil2100> doko: o/
<vorlon> doko is at GNU cauldron so also maybe not available
<doko> - started test rebuilds
<doko> - filing bug reports for the test rebuild (in progress)
<doko> - toolchain updates for linux 5.3
<doko> - now in Montreal for the GNU Cauldron
<doko> (done)
<sil2100> \o/
<sil2100> Any questions regarding status?
<sil2100> #topic Release incoming bugs
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Release incoming bugs
<sil2100> #link http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/rls-mgr/rls-dd-incoming-bug-tasks.html#foundations-bugs
<rbalint> seems empty
<sil2100> I guess nothing here
<sil2100> For ee as well, everything prioritized
<sil2100> No high+ bugs
<sil2100> #topic Team proposed-migration report
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Team proposed-migration report
<sil2100> #link http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses_by_team.html#foundations-bugs
<sil2100> Can't remember, the imagemagick is blocked on an MIR?
<sil2100> *imagemagick upload
<rbalint> sil2100, yes LP: #1827442
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1827442 in x265 (Ubuntu) "[MIR] libheif" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1827442
<doko> sil2100: the incoming report will be pretty full tomorrow ... maybe look at https://people.canonical.com/~doko/ftbfs-report/test-rebuild-20190906-eoan.html for now
<sil2100> doko: we can take a look at that after proposed-migration then
<sil2100> So next is liberror-perl, and that's assigned to me
<sil2100> Didn't have time to look at it yet though
<sil2100> netplan.io, I'd assume cyphermox was looking at that, maybe I should look at it as well since I wanted to dive into netplan anyway
<sil2100> Anyone looking at it right now or can I card it and assign it to myself?
<rbalint> regarding imagemagick how about building it without libheif, getting that migrated, then picking up libheif again for 20.04?
<vorlon> rbalint: there's nothing else of interest in the imagemagick in proposed *except* the libheif re-enablement
<rbalint> hm, actually vorlon volunteered doing htat
<vorlon> well, LocutusOfBorg had some further changed, but I pinged him asking about this and he didn't respond
<vorlon> also it was a revert of a CVE fix so no
<vorlon> anyway, I think leaving it blocked as-is on the MIR is best
<rbalint> vorlon, ok, no toolchain update made it more secure?
<vorlon> not afaik
<doko> awaiting security review
<rbalint> vorlon, ack, thanks
<sil2100> Next would be openssh, also unsatisfiable depends
<sil2100> Anyone looking at that? Anyone have any additional info?
<vorlon> sil2100: runit is trash and we should remove all references to it from the package
<vorlon> (it's a non-init service monitoring framework that we want nothing of in Ubuntu, we use systemd)
<vorlon> so someone want to look at that?
<vorlon> or did I just volunteer myself ;)
<sil2100> Was wondering about the latest upload since Colin did it, but then I saw it's a sync from Debian
<sil2100> vorlon: will you card it and assign it to yourself? ;)
<vorlon> no, but I'll work on it
<sil2100> ...that's more than good enough!
<sil2100> Anyway, I guess that's it then
<cjwatson> I'm going to be pretty unhappy if every future openssh change turns into a merge
<sil2100> doko: you wanted us to look at the test rebuild results for eoan, right?
<cjwatson> If you want to do that then please consider neutering dh-runit rather than modifying openssh
<cjwatson> vorlon: ^-
<vorlon> cjwatson: ack
<cjwatson> (since presumably the same thing applies to anything else that's had dh-runit-based patches accepted in Debian, either now or in the future)
<doko> sil2100: yes, because I just finished filing the ftbfs / rls-ee-incoming issues
<vorlon> cjwatson: (we could also make dh_runit invocation conditional on dpkg-vendor?)
<cjwatson> Could, but cumbersome
<sil2100> There's 44 packages that need attention from what I see, should we set some time next week maybe to fix some of them?
<sil2100> (from the eoan test rebuild)
<sil2100> gaughen: what do you think? ^
<cjwatson> And I don't see why it would be correct to do it that way if the reason is that it's a distribution-wide policy to avoid runit
<gaughen> sil2100, yes, we should.
<cjwatson> But let me know if there's some reason I haven't thought of that makes it necessary
<doko> sil2100: fine with me, then they are visible in the incoming bugs as well
<sil2100> doko, gaughen: let's maybe work on getting a time-slot next week to work on that and see how it goes then
<sil2100> We can do that after the meeting
<sil2100> In the meantime, let's proceed
<sil2100> #topic AOB
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: AOB
<sil2100> Any other business?
<sil2100> ...timeout!
<sil2100> #topic Next chair
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice | Weekly Ubuntu Foundations team Meeting | Current topic: Next chair
<sil2100> I choose... xnox !
<sil2100> #endmeeting
* meetingology changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Ubuntu Meeting Grounds: Please leave swords by the door | Calendar/Scheduled meetings: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs | Meetingology documentation: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/meetingology | <wxl> be nice
<meetingology> Meeting ended Thu Sep 12 15:33:47 2019 UTC.
<meetingology> Minutes:        http://ubottu.com/meetingology/logs/ubuntu-meeting/2019/ubuntu-meeting.2019-09-12-15.02.moin.txt
<sil2100> Thanks everyone o/
<rbalint> good choice! but for the week after next week! :-)
