#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-09
<Tm_T> hmm, so ubuntu, kubuntu, edubuntu and xubuntu all four are "official" distros? I mean if I make background with all of them
<Tm_T> ok, ubuntu.com talks only about ubuntu, kubuntu and edubuntu
<Tm_T> and I already got the idea... this will be great if I manage to do this right :)
<EU> Ol!
<EU> sorry.... hello!
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-10
<Burgundavia> anybody alive?
<jsgotangco> what's up?
<Burgundavia> didn't need you
<Burgundavia> should I create CategoryArt or CategoryArtwork ?
<ppd> hello. I wonder whether I could grab an ubuntu logo from a website and upload it on my webspace for a script? How's the copyright etc. with ubuntu logos in this case?
<lukacu> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArtwork and http://www.ubuntulinux.org/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy/
<ppd> hm, this doesn't cover my problem I think. Somebody created a logo, and I wanted to use this logo in a script. Does he own rights on that logo or can I simply grab it?
<lukacu> hi artnay
<lukacu> so, when is the next meeting?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-11
<Tm_T> hehe, gnome/gtk filedialog segfaults :p
<Tm_T> that means, no artwork... oh well, not yet february ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-12
<lukacu> mhz: hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-13
<artnay_> hello fellas
<artnay_> hey Andy
<artnay_> how's life?
<AndyFitz> hey mate .. pmed you  gotta scoot
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-14
<artnay_> hey klepas
<klepas> hey
<klepas> just got off the phone with Jeff Waigh
<klepas> *waugh
<klepas> artnay_: one on one?
<klepas> artnay_: ping
<Burgundavia> klepas, what news?
<artnay_> klepas: pong
<artnay_> I'm going to vote now (presidential election is running here in .fi)
<artnay_> will be back in 20 minutes
<klepas> Burgundavia: news from Jeff?
<Burgundavia> klepas, yes
<klepas> sorry, i guess i should have said it here rather than one on one
<klepas> basically we probably won't see much of our work in Dapper
<klepas> and we need to fix things up
<klepas> bring a purpose to the art team. it was created post warty in a hurry
<klepas> and never really had a concise goal
<klepas> also, we're going to fix AUC
<klepas> and there's some nice new ideas on those art packages
<klepas> which originally were going to go into universe repos
<klepas> but if they have a good enough theme/style
<klepas> they might make it mainstream
<artnay_> canonical should state publically what they're going to do with artwork
<klepas> i suppose
<klepas> ah well
<Burgundavia> artwork is always tricky to get people interested in
<artnay_> it really is. at least the branding guide would help people to focus on wanted issues
<artnay_> or have they forgotten CoC (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct)? *g*
<Burgundavia> the CoC has nothing to do with not sharing
<artnay_> In the Free Software world, we collaborate freely on a volunteer basis to build software for everyone's benefit. -and- but at least keep the outside world informed of your work, and publish your work in a way that allows outsiders to test, discuss and contribute to your efforts.
<artnay_> I think we're quite misinformed at the moment, don't you think?
<Burgundavia> yes, however big sticks don't actually help
<artnay_> klepas: let's put that into wiki once we get a confirmation (at LCA, right?)
<artnay_> so that we should work on artwork packages and AUC
<klepas> yea
<klepas> mum wants me to do some chores
<klepas> so i'll be afk for a while
<klepas> but yea, good idea
<Tm_T> laaaa
<Tm_T> does anyone have working gnome/gtk filedialog in dapper?
<Tm_T> I can't save nor open files in gimp & inkscape
<artnay_> Tm_T: I have but it only works in KDE (go figure)
<Tm_T> here gimp and inkscape crashes when they try to reach filedialog
<artnay_> is that bug filed?
<Tm_T> dunno
<Tm_T> haven't time to check such thing
<Tm_T> +got
<artnay_> mhz, ping
<mhz> artnay: hey!
<artnay_> hey there
<artnay_> nice to see you again
<artnay_> I had a vacation (which came out of blue)
<artnay_> I just finished watching this one: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0439574/
<artnay_> so have you heard any news from klepas? he discussed with jeff
<mhz> not at all, I have gotten back to IRC today, too.
<mhz> what happened?
<artnay_> umh
<artnay_> I guess artwork team is supposed to work on wiki, AUC and artwork packages
<artnay_> it's still a bit unclear
<artnay_> but it's only for ubuntu. riddell wants to keep kubuntu quite similiar to kde defaults (which is reasonable) but edubuntu is more open to development, right? :)
<artnay_> and there has been no word from xubuntu people afaik
<artnay_> so we could start by cleaning the wiki
<artnay_> arranging the next meeting and getting a confirmation to all that before-hand
<artnay_> I guess you didn't have a meeting on 5th as there was only four votes given :(
<mhz> ?
<mhz> nope
<mhz> I have been kind of off the web for almost a week
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-15
<artnay_> I know that feeling... after that you should real all MLs, usenet, bbs, irc logs, akregator feeds etc.
<artnay_> after you've read, umh, a couple of hundred articles, you get this feeling that you should bang your head into a wall x)
<artnay_> no, seriously....
<artnay_> I had over 8000 unread akregator articles waiting... I gave up and only read the most active ones
<artnay_> hehe, been there done that
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal
<mhz> hehehe
<artnay_> isn't that a bit too restrictive to others? I mean, it's not like we three are the only ones interested in that
<mhz> artnay: and I am now on my way to dinner and still have not done anything other than reading :)
<artnay_> have a good one
<mhz> hhehe, sorry
<mhz> artnay: that wiki page can be edited BY anyone
<mhz> so it is not restrictive
<artnay_> so which proposal should me edited? or create a new one?
<mhz> my proposal was a 'txt kind' so everyone would read it
<artnay_> I was just suggesting that we should have one common structure which could be discussed here
<mhz> so, feel free to either edit under your 'subtitle' or heading
<mhz> of course
<artnay_> I guess the first time I said that was... before NYE? :O
<mhz> it is just that was in my head so I put it there
<artnay_> anyways, there doesn't seem to be much interest going on :(
<mhz> that was one of my points
<artnay_> it's good you put it there!
<mhz> in the end, 3 or 5 people do all the stuff for everyone
<mhz> or others just work in a non-collaborative way
<mhz> artnay: I will have to leave now and hope to be back in 2 hours
<artnay_> it's 01:13 AM here, I have to get some sleep soon. I'll be back in ~6,5 hours (back to work)
<artnay_> so let's have a chat then
<Tm_T> artnay_: you can't chat from work! I wonder if your boss will pay me for some reveals...
<mhz> lol
<artnay_> Tm_T: heheh, I already signed off so it really doesn't matter
<Tm_T> muha
* Tm_T seems to have kde-developer status :o
<artnay_> I overslept a bit, 3,5 hours late... :|
<Tm_T> haha
<artnay_> that reminds me of this song... weezer - buddy holly
<artnay_> I could sing it here: "I don't care about that!" D: :D
<Tm_T> =)
* Tm_T is in school, bored
<artnay_> some AUC whining: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=115183
<artnay_> klepas: 
<klepas> hey artnay_ 
<artnay_> so, the next meeting
<artnay_> we should update wiki, but I really have no idea of dates
<artnay_> after LCA, then we should have more information
<artnay_> but which date?
<artnay_> date(s) for voting process
<artnay_> get. something. done. :>
<artnay_> the end of Jan would be suitable
<artnay_> then Andy has released his icon set, LCA has been held and by then we should get an official statement
<artnay_> what do you think?
<klepas> I vote for february 1st
<klepas> for a good day
<artnay_> actually I changed my ISP and therefore I might be without a connection for a week or so
<klepas> :(
<artnay_> but it really doesn't matter if we manage to get enough people online
<artnay_> I'd give mine vote for 26th
<artnay_> but 1st is a good option, too.
<artnay_> should there be one day of weekend covered as well?
<klepas> during the 26th both andy and i will be at LCA
<klepas> in facty
<klepas> both of us will be at the AGM of LA
<artnay_> oh, so it takes at least three days then
<artnay_> I wasn't aware of that
<artnay_> so it's out of question
<klepas> pretty much
<klepas> any people part of LA will probably be at the conference
<klepas> and if not
<klepas> trying to be at the AGM
<klepas> LCA goes till the 30th
<artnay_> and after that one needs to get some sleep...
<klepas> the 31st is a wee bit early, m'thinks
<artnay_> :)
<klepas> so the 1st or the 2nd of February would be dandy :)
<artnay_> yeah, on the 31st we should gather that information
<artnay_> 1st, 2nd and 4th?
<artnay_> those would be the three options, is it ok?
<klepas> yep
<klepas> but still before college begins
<klepas> because that will keep me busy
<klepas> :)
<klepas> done
<klepas> http://wombat.nuxified.com/subtango
<artnay_> http://tango-project.org/static/cvs/tango-icon-theme/scalable/actions/mail-mark-junk.png
<artnay_> oh, something brown x)
<klepas> that looks really nice :)
<artnay_> so the meeting date has to be decided before, umh, 25th?
<klepas> sounds okay
<artnay_> damn, can't remember password for my launchpad account... :)
<artnay_> could you update it? :o
<klepas> which page?
<artnay_> meeting
<klepas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamVoting
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamVoting
<klepas> :)
<klepas> 5 minutes
<artnay_> thanks, I have to retrieve my password
<klepas> np
<artnay_> so when /ArtWork and its contect will be as a one category, are we able to do something similiar to "grep -i Artwork [WWW]  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges" ?
<klepas> yep
<klepas> iirc
<artnay_> so let's categorize it asap ;p
<klepas> okay
<artnay_> oh, I can't edit ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal either
<klepas> i'm afraid i won't have a whole heap of time
<klepas> work, LCA and then college life begins
<artnay_> I don't know should I type ":)" or ":("
<klepas> yea
<klepas> not much i can do
<klepas> lol
<klepas> http://www.flickr.com/photos/86444323%40N00/81971182/
<artnay_> no prob, you do what you can
<artnay_> that's pretty much what we've done so far
<klepas> might not be work safe though.
<artnay_> "hey mam, I'm here!"
<artnay_> hey
<artnay_> dammit!
<artnay_> you must have some script, mhz!
* Tm_T still hates awaynicks
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-08
<troy_s> greets elkbuntu
<Winter-1> hey
<familyfriendly> yo
<Winter-1> but yea u want something great
<familyfriendly> do you think we should still with the current colour scheme?
<familyfriendly> vista and macos are going with more gunmetal looks
<Winter-1> well i like the sleek black and white but at the same time i think of color for ubuntu so we should bring both to the table
<familyfriendly> well i guess the brown tones come from that fact ubuntu has allot to do with the notion "humanity towards others"
<Winter-1> yes
<familyfriendly> so i def see a place for keeping the current scheme
<Winter-1> see i wish i had photoshop so i could do some mock-ups
<familyfriendly> what kinda mock-ups are you thinking of?
<familyfriendly> a while back i play with colours
<Winter-1> well i wanna go into PS and start making examples of what i want things to look like
<Winter-1> tthen from there i could start creating it
<Winter-1> but i want a plan
<familyfriendly> what apps would you want to have as a starting point
<familyfriendly> ?
<Winter-1> ?
<familyfriendly> as far as mock-ups are concerned, like would you want to just start with a wallpaper ... that kind of thing
<Winter-1> i would start with windows and color and taskbar
<Winter-1> i dont like how ubuntu is laid out
<familyfriendly> ok, by windows you mean windown border?
<Winter-1> yea
<familyfriendly> ok
<Winter-1> border button layout etc
<Winter-1> i wish gnome would change over to the emerald theme engine
<Winter-1> or at least ubuntu
<BHSPitLappy> yawn
<Winter-1> lol
<BHSPitLappy> Winter-1, stop bitching about photoshop!
<BHSPitLappy> name the task you're trying to do that hangs you up when you try it in gimp.
<Winter-1> i dunno i just cant use it
<BHSPitLappy> that doesn't make sense to me, though
<BHSPitLappy> they're so similarly used
<BHSPitLappy> make something in inkscape, then
<familyfriendly> i actually dont like beryl
<Winter-1> i do but dont
<troy_s> familyfriendly:  well i guess the brown tones come from that fact ubuntu has allot to do with the notion "humanity towards others"
<troy_s> you would think so, but it has more to do with sepia -- it was a happy accident
<familyfriendly> really
<troy_s> according to sab, yes.
<troy_s> although i would agree with you
<troy_s> it 'works' for the reason you mention
<troy_s> although the 'ubuntu design' front is non-existent, so it is pure fluke.
<familyfriendly> lol
<familyfriendly> yea i agree
<troy_s> it is horribly unfortunate
<troy_s> but again, that sort of thing starts at the top
<troy_s> _cohesive_ art and design just simply isn't tackled in the free software community the way code is.
<troy_s> i think it will get there, the more attention the basic mechanics get attention (read tools)
<familyfriendly> someone in i think it stems fromt he fact that ubuntu is more of aggregatior of projects, so artwork, particularly icons are by nature inconsistant ... but i think default background and borders could do with some work.
<BHSPitLappy> it works for me, but if it could produce the same appeal that Apple products are known to deliver, or that Vista is said to have, so much the better
<troy_s> rather everything needs a fundamental design plan.
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: that isn't going to happen without a solid plan
<BHSPitLappy> mmhmm
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: Apple's design team is given a _lot_ of power.
<BHSPitLappy> I actually really liked the earth tones approach
<troy_s> and they do their job.
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: relating to what?
<troy_s> earth tones and ubuntu is a _NO BRAINER_
<BHSPitLappy> mmhmm...
<troy_s> unfortunately, it will take apple and ms to do the bloody thing before sabdfl will believe it.
<troy_s> everyone goes plastic, ubuntu should go earth.
<BHSPitLappy> when I first switched to ubuntu, I was really pleased by the brownedness
<troy_s> yep.  it is a wonderful spectrum if you build on it.
<familyfriendly> my main complaint is that the default ubuntu them is really chunky
<troy_s> indeed ;)
<BHSPitLappy> although I feel the shift from there to orange, as well
<familyfriendly> i dont like plastic either
<troy_s> i agree with you 100% plastic is passee
<BHSPitLappy> very vibrant
<troy_s> very very very done.
<familyfriendly> murrine is a good starting point in my opinion, but with diff cooursa
<BHSPitLappy> makes the computer less mechanical
<troy_s> too gloss
<troy_s> murrine is just another glossy engine
<troy_s> dborg__ has a wonderful engine in place in Lua, hopefully it will get the deserved attention.
<BHSPitLappy> it's really a tricky field, design.
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: couldn't agree with you more.  although earth is generally not too vibrant -- more into the pastels.
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: everyone bikesheds about it, very few actually put the time in to study it.
<troy_s> it seems everyone is an expert.
<BHSPitLappy> troy_s, my wallpaper http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=48185
<familyfriendly> well i like the squareness of murrine, im not really a fan of the rounded edges
<familyfriendly> anywas i have t go
<familyfriendly> ciao
<BHSPitLappy> later...
<troy_s> alas, i must too bed.
<BHSPitLappy> you know what would be nice?
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy:  you should get involved with a theming project.
<BHSPitLappy> if a teacher or professor of a good design class pitched ubuntu as an assignment
<BHSPitLappy> we might get some good stuff out of that ;)
<troy_s> wouldn't matter
<BHSPitLappy> I'm aware
<BHSPitLappy> I dunno what I could offer a theming project.
<troy_s> i could probably rally some folks like that, but ultimately it is sab's aesthetics, and he doesn't really work within the same parameters that we should be.
<BHSPitLappy> when I said "my wallpaper" I didn't mean it literally
<troy_s> by theming i mean a project that works towards a goal.
<troy_s> ah.
<BHSPitLappy> yeah...
<troy_s> well art and design needs more than folks who can push pixels or sketch.
<BHSPitLappy> I pitched Edgy login/logout sounds
<troy_s> it takes a full team with coding, sounds etc.
<BHSPitLappy> they were latecomers, and I think sab wanted a different direction.
<troy_s> i think we will eventually get there, but sabdfl needs to acknowledge that perhaps there are others out there who might handle the fort better than he.
<BHSPitLappy> I'm adept at graphic art, but I'm more useful probably when it comes to music and composition.
<troy_s> it might happen at some point.
<BHSPitLappy> I was displeased with the edgy sound set.
<troy_s> well the problem was that i was deeply interested in getting a 'sound department' going
<BHSPitLappy> I have my share of nitpicks with the login/logout that was chosen
<troy_s> and the takers were few.
<BHSPitLappy> yeah
<BHSPitLappy> I'm in the launchpad group
<troy_s> unfortunately, when we developed a good deal of momentum
<BHSPitLappy> in came the hammer?
<troy_s> sabdfl decided to take the route he currently has.
<BHSPitLappy> mmhmm.
<troy_s> well the problem is that the entire system was designed around him
<troy_s> to make decisions at checkpoints
<BHSPitLappy> he's a fickle "leader".
<troy_s> but alas, he simply doesn't know what to do.
<troy_s> actually he is a damn bright guy with a great vision.
<troy_s> that said, art and design aren't perhaps his suit.
<troy_s> without sabdfl, Ubuntu would be zero.
<BHSPitLappy> mmhmm
<BHSPitLappy> and I'd be using mandriva or something else
<troy_s> so for that, i utterly respect him.  that said, i also share my component of disagreements with him.
<BHSPitLappy> he is, after all, a human being.
<troy_s> at some point, perhaps the tide will turn a little.
<troy_s> indeed.
<troy_s> anyways, nice chat.  i must put the grey matter on a pillow.
<troy_s> what is left of it.
<BHSPitLappy> night
<troy_s> night BHSPitLappy
<familyfriendly> yoyoy
<BHSPitLappy> yoyoyoyo
<lapo> yo
<coz_> morning all
<TheSheep> http://morguefile.com/archive/?display=145617&
<TheSheep> could make a nice wallpaper for ubuntu...
<troy_s> TheSheep: Little literal.
<troy_s> and quite contrasty
<troy_s> in terms of functionality
<TheSheep> troy_s: I had a similar one on my desktop for the last week for testing
<troy_s> It is a tad on the contrasty.  Although it does play into savanna preference :)
<troy_s> (That is probably at wikipedia if you don't know what it is)
<TheSheep> troy_s: http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=41252
<troy_s> still too contrasty
<troy_s> you should be able to move an icon or window across any area of the screen and have it legible / note window edges.
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's why I mean -- it wans't bad on my eyes
<troy_s> It is pretty
<troy_s> but in terms of wallpaper might be heavy
<troy_s> (just think about it plastered all over your walls in a home)
<TheSheep> ah
<TheSheep> maybe for login screen ;)
<troy_s> I find that the analogy principle works well as you can quickly see how something gets a little 'heavy' when placed out of context and into another role
<TheSheep> :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: what do you think of those? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Desktop/Feisty/Incoming
<troy_s> Opposite end of the spectrum in my opinion
<troy_s> They communicate nothing.
<troy_s> as they are basically a 'no desktop wallpaper' with a colour on them.
<troy_s> Looks like josef is using metacity-2 extensions on the last screenshot
<troy_s> metacity2 provides for six or seven buttons... too much in my opinion for a non power user.
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's not metacity
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's xfwm4
<TheSheep> troy_s: and the bottom one is Beryl
<troy_s> the six buttons would be the window manager though
<troy_s> iirc
<troy_s> it should at least be handled by it... as per metacity2.
<TheSheep> troy_s: beryl, xfwm4 and metacity are different window managers
<TheSheep> troy_s: actually, beryl uses a separate 'window decorator' called emerald for handling window decorations
<troy_s> does beryl handle all of the window managing however?
<troy_s> i was under the impression that it was more on top of it.
<TheSheep> troy_s: no, it's a window manager
<troy_s> interesting.
<troy_s> seems foolish to accomplish something that silly with an entire window manager when something like e17 does much of that functionality without hardware accell.
<TheSheep> troy_s: the point was to use hw accel, not to accomplish all that ;)
<TheSheep> troy_s: myself, I use a hw-accelerated window manager with all the special effects disabled -- just because it's faster and easier on the cpu
<troy_s> indeed
<troy_s> Well if you care, we can accomplish most of that (aside from the antialising with the active root window / subjects)
<troy_s> with metacity
<troy_s> metacity 2 allows for a power user setup with more buttons
<troy_s> (like sticky, shade/unshade, etc.)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Can you code?
<troy_s> Namely python
<TheSheep> troy_s: yes
<troy_s> Awsome
<troy_s> Have you ever coded a python applet?
<troy_s> for the panel?
<TheSheep> no, I only have a lot of experience with web apps, roguelike games and gtk
<troy_s> Do you know python?
<TheSheep> *some gtk
<TheSheep> troy_s: yes
<TheSheep> troy_s: http://sheep.art.pl  <-- that's me
<troy_s> I intend to use python for the panel applets for the countless reasons that make is viable.
<troy_s> do you have the link for the applet tutorial in python?
<troy_s> it would allow us to delve into interface issues without borking the rest of bun
<TheSheep> http://www.pygtk.org/articles/applets_arturogf/
<troy_s> Hey another warhammer fan :)
<troy_s> nice to see.
<troy_s> (covers up his horribly geek side again)
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'm more into necromunda actually...
<TheSheep> http://www.gnome.org/~tvachon/doc/tutorial.html
<troy_s> Great
<troy_s> two steps basically -- the app syntax and the OAF file for the servers
<TheSheep> troy_s: do you have any particular panels in mind?
<troy_s> Well yes...
<troy_s> let me pm you
<BHSPitLappy> yo, familyfriendly
<familyfriendly> howsit
<BHSPitLappy> itsgood
<familyfriendly> so is the art team active for feisty after edgy?
<troy_s> No
<troy_s> Not for the actual release anyways.
<familyfriendly> hrmmm
<troy_s> nature of the beast
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-09
<BHSPitLappy> I wouldn't go so far as to call him a "beast"...
<BHSPitLappy> :P
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> nature of our beast.  we must go through these growing pains.
<familyfriendly> hrmm
<familyfriendly> lol
<familyfriendly> brb
<familyfriendly> hey where do i get like ubuntu logo's etc? from the wiki?
<TheSheep> familyfriendly: yes
<familyfriendly> found :D
<TheSheep> familyfriendly: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing
<TheSheep> ah, ok
<familyfriendly> thnx anyway
<familyfriendly> http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/6919/screenshotem6.png
<familyfriendly> too bright, too swirly, note mute enough ... ?  Its the whole comming together kinda thing, but kinda watercolourish, adding to the human dimension
<familyfriendly> thoughts?
<TheSheep> my eyes! my eyes!
<BHSPitLappy> ouch
<BHSPitLappy> now I want to criticize, but he's gone :(
<TheSheep> heh
<Winter-1> hey
<BHSPitLappy> hey, familyfriendly
<coz_> hello to all awake
<coz_> I have a statement to make
<BHSPitLappy> k
<coz_> I have been posting much of my artwork on theubuntu forums site
<BHSPitLappy> k
<coz_> I have been doing this for some time now
<BHSPitLappy> k
<coz_> I reposted a painting of kassetra I had done last year that was posted for over 6 months on my gallery
<coz_> after having reposted it again this morning, in 2 hours it was removed
<BHSPitLappy> ouch
<coz_> the answer I got for whay is that it was a nude however, not only do I have other nudes including a photograph there, but many people also have nudes on their galleries
<coz_> this wa apparenlty a continuation of the rediculous politacal fiasco of last summer concerning kassetra
<coz_> as a result i cannot post my work any longer
<BHSPitLappy> hmm
<coz_> the infiltration of ultra conservative values and political views have no place in art or ubunbtu
<coz_> my work, unlikepdevs who have freely given it over to the public is copyrighted amterial
<coz_>  so as a membert of the ubuntu art team, i strongly suggest that the other emembers, do the same
<BHSPitLappy> jenda said to post in the Resolution Center.
<coz_> until the conservative views are irradicated
<BHSPitLappy> btw, you're being ridiculous
<coz_> I urge all artists posting on the forums to remove their works
<coz_> until this has changed
<BHSPitLappy> Yeah, real speaker for his cause
<BHSPitLappy> "I refuse to stick around anywhere long enough to support my arguments; complaints alone!
<elkbuntu> if he's posting non-family friendly stuff then this outcome is for the best
<BHSPitLappy> regardless of political views regarding art, this is a linux site.
<elkbuntu> BHSPitLappy, and we're under the Code of Conduct, which means being respectful. nudity is quite disrespectful to many people and cultures
<BHSPitLappy> parents only allow their kids to visit radio shack because they understand there's not a good chance of finding naked photos behind the iPod accessories.
<elkbuntu> precisely
<BHSPitLappy> as such, leave nude art to the nude art forums.
<BHSPitLappy> we don't need to be one, masquerading as a tech support forum.
<elkbuntu> and we both know there's a crapload of them out there anyway
<elkbuntu> yeah
<BHSPitLappy> that guy gets on my nerves a lot.
<BHSPitLappy> meh.
<elkbuntu> heh
<elkbuntu> deep breaths, dear
<BHSPitLappy> no, I'm fine.
<BHSPitLappy> :P
<BHSPitLappy> I'm just as civil as the
<BHSPitLappy> HANG HIM!
<elkbuntu> sometimes i wonder if this is a lingering curse from the linuxxx days, or a curse of letting horny geeks make pretty pictures
<BHSPitLappy> lol
<BHSPitLappy> I'm not old enough to know of such curses
<elkbuntu> the two are not mutually exclusive either, hehe
<elkbuntu> linuxxx is a nickname warty was given due to the default artwork of .. arousing artwork
<BHSPitLappy> "The co-creator of LinuXXX, Eric Hefner, said that the inspiration for the all-porn OS came from the Ubuntu Linux distribution. "When Ubuntu revealed their original cleavage-enhanced splash screen, I knew the world was ready for a Triple-X operating system.""
<elkbuntu> lol
<BHSPitLappy> damn, I didn't get on board until Dapper.
<BHSPitLappy> lol.
<elkbuntu> i started using in hoary, 'discovered' the community in breezy
<elkbuntu> i had used the channels late hoary, but they didnt really make an impression back then
<BHSPitLappy> I'd finally had enough of Mandriva, so I started looking elsewhere.  Thought I'd finally look at this Ubuntu I'd heard so much about.  That was shortly before the Dapper release, so I waited for it.
<elkbuntu> heh. ubuntu is the first linux i actually used
<BHSPitLappy> As for the community, well I was already on freenode. Wasn't too much to join a few more chans :P
<elkbuntu> played with knoppix and DSL before then
<BHSPitLappy> My first was SuSe.
<BHSPitLappy> YuCK.
<elkbuntu> hehe
<elkbuntu> they dotn use yum? :
<BHSPitLappy> heh.
* elkbuntu hasnt really played with suse yet
<BHSPitLappy> they use NaSTy YaST
<elkbuntu> i know
<BHSPitLappy> Ubuntu was a big deal for me, though
<elkbuntu> i have actually got mandriva on this machine.. i played with it for... i think half a day
<BHSPitLappy> first linux I've used that could actually fill the shoes of "primary" for me
<elkbuntu> ubuntu is a big deal for everyone, they just dont know it yet :D
<BHSPitLappy> linux, before, was something I tried to be on as much as I could, but it was never livable.
<elkbuntu> yeah
<BHSPitLappy> and it's something I can share.
<elkbuntu> it helps to have a community like this behind us
<BHSPitLappy> I've got my family, grandmother, two friends using it
<elkbuntu> nice. so far i've achieved a partition on my mother's computer. unfortunately she does still need windows for some things
<BHSPitLappy> the grandmother part means a lot.
<elkbuntu> yeah
<BHSPitLappy> yeah
<BHSPitLappy> my mom uses it about 50/50
<BHSPitLappy> pretty evenly
<BHSPitLappy> she likes the games ^^
<elkbuntu> i had my bro playin wesnoth until he moved out last weekend
<BHSPitLappy> coz is back on...
<BHSPitLappy> not familiar with wesnoth
<elkbuntu> turn based strategy game
<BHSPitLappy> I see
<BHSPitLappy> I used to like... a similar game to that
<BHSPitLappy> I mean, one of that genre.
<BHSPitLappy> many years back, on Windows...
<elkbuntu> might be worth taking a look then
<BHSPitLappy> no idea what it was called
<elkbuntu> i totally suck at that sort of game
<BHSPitLappy> nah, it really doesn't interest me
<elkbuntu> but we have wormux and lincity-ng so im satisfied :)
<BHSPitLappy> isn't lincity sort of disappointing
<BHSPitLappy> I wish The Sims 2 worked in wine or something...
<elkbuntu> lincity is, lincity-ng is better
<elkbuntu> it's not as good as the real thing though
<elkbuntu> i have simcity2000 disks around here somewhere
<BHSPitLappy> oh
<BHSPitLappy> heh, yeah, I have that
<elkbuntu> still havent tried it in wine :(
<BHSPitLappy> look it up in the appdb
<BHSPitLappy> gotta love the original pixel-art buildings
<elkbuntu> hehe yeah
<elkbuntu> i can really see the gaming situation improving in the next year or two
<BHSPitLappy> simcity 2000 has a gold rating
<elkbuntu> yeah
<elkbuntu> s/yeah/yeah?/
<BHSPitLappy> what's sad is that the songs wouldn't work
<BHSPitLappy> I assume
<BHSPitLappy> MIDI...
<BHSPitLappy> it really irks me that hardware midi is basically nonexistent in linux.
<BHSPitLappy> then you'd think there'd be a well-implemented software synth, but there really isn't.
<elkbuntu> there may well be one day
<BHSPitLappy> you have a goose chase setting up qsynth, or mediocre performance with timidity
<BHSPitLappy> maybe a nice, well-integrated server with a GUI for loading soundfont
<BHSPitLappy> mayyybe I will... maybe I will... lol
<elkbuntu> you never know what jokosher is going to end up like either ;)
<BHSPitLappy> open source GarageBand?
<elkbuntu> i think that's the intention
<elkbuntu> http://jokosher.org
<BHSPitLappy> I'm wondering if Audacity died...
<elkbuntu> the project? nope
<BHSPitLappy> last news is from october.
<elkbuntu> that's not unusual
<elkbuntu> slow != dead
<elkbuntu> i suspect it will start feeding off jokosher at some point
<BHSPitLappy> you wonder why they don't just produce a couple linux packages for 1.3.2b, either
<BHSPitLappy> "The beta version of Audacity has not been packaged for very many distributions yet. You probably want to compile Audacity from source code."
<BHSPitLappy> it probably required more effort to pump out Windows and Mac binaries... oh well
<BHSPitLappy> I'm whining too much :)
<elkbuntu> i think it's more a case of they let distro maintainers do the packaging
<BHSPitLappy> distro maintainers won't/don't package it in beta...
<BHSPitLappy> look how long it took them to figure out that gaim2.0beta was actually what they should go with.
* elkbuntu shrugs
<lapo> hi
<BHSPitLappy> yo
<coz_> KaiL, morning
<troy_s> greets all
<TheSheep> hey troy
<troy_s> go
<troy_s> hey elkbuntu -- did corey have a little falling out with ubuntu apparently?
<troy_s> (i ask you because you are in with the doc / marketing crowd i believe)
<troy_s> greets msikma
<msikma> Hi Troy
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-10
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!  Feisty 'art and design' is being handled by Cliff and sabdfl.  If you have questions, ask sabdfl.
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<coz_> is eeryon at the #ubuntu-meeting or here ?
<troy_s> here
<troy_s> isn't ubuntu meeting rather ... dry?
<coz_> well it seems to be:)
<coz_> mark shuttlwroth is there if that meand anything
<troy_s> i mean it is sort of turning into a 'hey hire me' audition sequence.
<troy_s> sad really.
<troy_s> yah ... i know.
<coz_> well some need that acceptance
<coz_> go figure
<troy_s> he has bigger issues than to be sitting in on bloody 'membership' meetings i would hope.
<coz_> troy_s, this is hid baby remember
<coz_> his
<coz_> troy_s, are you a member of the art team
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> not that there is one at this juncture
<coz_> why is that?
<troy_s> largely because of the kaibosh scenario that took place towards the end of edgy
<coz_> troy_s, don;t know about that can you briefly explain it?
<troy_s> that might take some time... :)
<troy_s> the paper trail is pretty much on the wiki
<coz_> just the just
<troy_s> if you have any interest in it...
<coz_> jist
<coz_> ok
<troy_s> well... pre -edgy there was little coordination, more or less.
<troy_s> so we set out to build a team, get some groundwork in place, etc.
<coz_> right
<troy_s> largely with the attitude that the journey was the end.
<troy_s> in terms of development
<troy_s> get some established ties with the devs
<troy_s> etc.
<coz_> but
<troy_s> and we do have a good deal of things like that in place now -- Frank and daniel banged out some artwork automation scripts
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> all through bzr, etc.
<coz_> ok
<troy_s> then, as a result of a lack of steering on the part of sabd's end of things (because he is busy, ... etc.)
<troy_s> the communication gap became critical only at the end, when he decided to pay some attention to the development
<coz_> troy_s, fogures deva are not artists
<troy_s> long story short, he kaiboshes the work, tries to crank out something in the remaining 8 days or so etc.
<coz_> devs
<troy_s> and poof...
<troy_s> decides that this term 'design and art' "development" will be with Cliff -- the fellow who 'designed' dapper
<coz_> typical dev approach
<troy_s> Make no mistake
<troy_s> sab is a damn bright guy
<troy_s> and i have the utmost respect for him
<troy_s> but we are a ways apart in terms of art and design approach
<coz_> he ws a dev he has no eye for art or its complexities
<troy_s> further still, you have the existing politicking and such to deal with when you are in Free Software.
<coz_> troy_s, tell me :)
<troy_s> I'm a huge proponent of book research and education when it comes to art and design
<troy_s> and many of my peers are the same way
<coz_> troy_s same here
<coz_> if i understand you
<coz_> troy_s, so what is the next step going to be
<troy_s> Well I spent five years studying art and design in university, coupled it with some professional work, and constantly try to upgrade my knowledge by reading / building a library of sorts etc.
<coz_> troy_s,  same here
<troy_s> _wonderful_ to hear.
<troy_s> i think the art community will eventually 'arrive' in free software for ethical reasons
<coz_> if you look you will see my name as a member also
<troy_s> among others.
<troy_s> hrm... launchpad?
<coz_> yep
<troy_s> launchpad link to your handle?
<coz_> hold on
<coz_> troy_s, https://launchpad.net/~cosimo321
<troy_s> hrm... did you do the ubuntu stone?
<coz_> no but I like thatone myself I had done may things that were posted on the foums but after this mornings fiasco I have removed al o my work
<troy_s> Next step is a difficult one to state... personally I have simply decided to start proceeding along development lines that are more what I am used to.
<troy_s> I have zero hope for Ubuntu art and design until there is a public push for it.
<TheSheep> troy_s: out of curiosity, what is the "established" process for such things?
<coz_> I have little hope because of the conservative views of the poeple on the forums and the ubuntu community
<troy_s> Right now, it will for a while be caught up in this strange mix of trying to catch a glossy shiny plastic dragon that is OSx / Vista.
<troy_s> What I am used to TheSheep?
<coz_> troy_s, perhaps we should allow our work to be used only after purchase :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: yes, how do the artists normally organise?
<troy_s> Depends on the team
<TheSheep> troy_s: name a few models
<coz_> TheSheep, apparetly poorly I have never been approached ever
<troy_s> Do you mean in the Ubuntu sphere?
<troy_s> Or outside?
<coz_> troy_s, ubuntu
<troy_s> TheSheep sorry...
<TheSheep> troy_s: no, I mean how it is done by proffessional artists, not necessarilly related to computers at all
<troy_s> Ubuntu -- prior to edgy there was _zero_ team
<troy_s> I think there were 16 members on Launchpad.
<troy_s> So Edgy, in terms of a transitioning phase, did a good job to at least harness the interest.
<troy_s> In terms of professional it depends... I am a big structure guy.
<troy_s> I like to have a good solid foundation of aesthetics in place so that the language that artists and creative folks speak can dive in and start utilizing.
<troy_s> But that is my personal take... Some Art Designers like to build scrapbooks of such, and build out from there.
<troy_s> Some 'artists' in video gaming for example, are just 'paint a tree', 'now mask all these cars' etc.
<coz_> TheSheep, are you asking how an artists gets his work into the public eye?
<TheSheep> troy_s: computer insdustry has already pretty extensive "scrapbook" of ready methaphors and solutions :)
<troy_s> But when I speak of workflow, I tend to speak of the top down approach -- less 'build the pieces' but 'see the forest'
<troy_s> TheSheep uh... I guess so.
<troy_s> Generally, I am very choosy about the creative work I get involved in.
<TheSheep> troy_s: yes, and probably feel hurt when you can't do it right
<TheSheep> troy_s: I have the same
<troy_s> Well it is just that I can get pretty involved with it, and I like to discuss things and build around a direction.  If the folks involved aren't of that nature, I don't have much interest.
<troy_s> Too many pixel pushers out there.  Solo soldier types.  Great for small projects, but larger ones -- you need to realize that you need a FULL team firing on FULL cylinders.
<coz_> troy_s, interesting concept, you prefer team ability and lesser art ability that the other way around?
<TheSheep> troy_s: I just went to talk about a new website design today with some client. Just when I entered, he welcomed me with "we've been thinking about the design, and we have some ideas"...
<troy_s> TheSheep... eek.
<TheSheep> troy_s: exactly, the most important thing is a large photo up front :)
<coz_> TheSheep, what type of work do you do in the field
<troy_s> coz_ Not exactly.  I think the idea of Free Design has a huge potential.  You need people with execution talent, people with differing abilities (documents / organization / etc.)
<coz_> troy_s, agreed
<troy_s> I just have faith in Free Design.  I don't think it has been actually 'accomplished' yet to any great capacity, but I believe it can and will happen with a little organization.
<coz_> troy_s, I am not sure of your deginiation of "free design" however :)
<TheSheep> coz_: I get paid for sysadmin and web designer work, I do some pixel-art game graphics on the side
<coz_> definition
<coz_> TheSheep, ok soundsgood
<troy_s> Just take Free Software -- the collaborative upside of it with coordination -- and apply it to Art and Design.
<TheSheep> troy_s: in this context -- I wonder how many Tango icons were made by jimmac alone :)
<troy_s> That is part of the problem, when people cite this sort of thing they cite either Everaldo's work or Tango
<troy_s> And ... well... it would be nice if it grew beyond that.
<TheSheep> troy_s: I think that the guidelines -- similar to these posted on the tango project -- are the key
<TheSheep> troy_s: *someone* has to make the basic decissions
<TheSheep> troy_s: there is no democracy in art
<coz_> TheSheep, as long as they have an art background
<TheSheep> coz_: there exist good naturals too -- they just need supervision ;)
<troy_s> TheSheep -- I think they can be evolutionary
<coz_> TheSheep, yes but final decisions must be made by and only by those with art background
<TheSheep> myself, I come from the computer science end, not from the art end
<troy_s> TheSheep -- but yes, you can't just have sixteen people tugging in different directions.  That said, if you look at Tango and pulled a random sampling of say, 10 icons -- your average viewer would have a HELLUVA tough time telling that they were part of a 'set'.
<troy_s> coz_ Probably disagree with you there... final decisions are made by your audience.
<coz_> troy_s, i ws speaking in terms of ubuntu and the devs etc
<troy_s> If you intend to make something for them that is.
<troy_s> Not auteur theory of course.
<troy_s> coz_ Devs have some damn good ideas about art and design
<coz_> troy_s,  not enough for finalization in my opinion
<TheSheep> especially when it comes to usefulness end :)
<troy_s> I think the real problem is formalizing them, banging them against a good set of established goals / procedures, and evaluating them _solely_ against the items' role in Ubuntu.
<troy_s> Bikeshedding is unavoidable.
<coz_> well my tendencies dicatate that art people and only art people make the final decision as to what will and will not be included in ie ubuntu
<TheSheep> even if you just move all your interface elements around the screen randomly, you **do** get a working layout after several years of heavy use.
<troy_s> Which is why having a solid set of design guidelines lets you rather democratically and effectively make critical decisions without saying those AWFUL words:
<troy_s> "I think..."
<troy_s> TheSheep: LOLLLLLL
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> coz_ that will take a massive building of relationships and trust.
<coz_> troy_s, it would I AGREE
<BHSPitLappy> coz_, who are art people?
<BHSPitLappy> am I an art person?
<coz_> BHSPitLappy,  me Trae TheSheep
<coz_> troy_s,
<BHSPitLappy> are they only people who feel a certain way about something?
<BHSPitLappy> just curious
<coz_> they are the only people capable of making a reational decision about what is and is not included yed
* TheSheep doesn't feel "arty"
<coz_> yes
<TheSheep> and I'm really bad at decissions
<coz_> i am not
<TheSheep> coz_: great
<coz_> :)
<coz_> BHSPitLappy, does that answer your question?
<BHSPitLappy> those 4 people, got it.
<troy_s> Eek
<coz_> BHSPitLappy, what about you?
<BHSPitLappy> what -about- me?
<coz_> BHSPitLappy, did you get it
<troy_s> I don't like the sounds of that.  If anyone actually pretends to know anything about computer art and design, they are fooling themselves.
<coz_> troy_s, in what way?
<troy_s> Not even MS and Apple know ... they try.  They do focus groups.  Then they revamp because of new technology, etc.
<troy_s> Well it is a new frontier.  Rather like exploring space.
<coz_> troy_s, yes exactly
<coz_> troy_s, but in the final lap it is only an artist that can make the decisions about art
<troy_s> I have seen the bloody computer shoot from command line Apple ] [ on which I learned how to code, to a massive library bound tool that spews art, literature, science, music, ... everything.
<troy_s> I think a person with art training and eduction, with a solid grounded body of evidence, can make _A_ decision, but it doesn't assure success.  Once again, that audience does.
<troy_s> Computers are all about interaction -- not exactly the realm of Goya, Mich, DaV, etc.
<coz_> troy_s, true and the audience should have the final say so as to their approval of the orok or not
<coz_> of the work or not
<coz_> i am most definaltey the worst typist in any channel :)
<troy_s> Lol.
<troy_s> Quite a crown.
<coz_> but I think all o fyu are fluent in typonese right/
<TheSheep> it's amazing how much golden research there is available at msdn library that's totally unused either by ms or anyone else
<TheSheep> I mean hard research and facts
<troy_s> TheSheep -- hell why stop there?  Wikipedia has every darn art and design term I know.
<coz_> TheSheep, about what .. the research I mean?
<troy_s> TheSheep -- and countless dollars spent focus grouping.
<TheSheep> coz_: user interface, cognition, presentation techniques
<coz_> TheSheep, I see
<coz_> well those are coprorate approaches however
<troy_s> The problem with Microsoft is that their 'inventions' as a generality (and they have a massive R&D department) tends to try and make things that aren't already there.
<troy_s> Tough to explain, but it seemed that the golden era of say, Xerox PARC, was consumed
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's not about inventions, these are crappy, it's about researching how do things work
<troy_s> with a group of artists (in the Romantic sense of the term) that built things around things that were already there.
<coz_> TheSheep, well now we have ventured away form art
<troy_s> I don't know
<TheSheep> coz_: I don't think so. It connects.
<troy_s> Usability and cognitive theory plays a pretty big role in computer art and design.
<TheSheep> coz_: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you understand how people receive and process things, you can exploit it in art.
<troy_s> Indeed.  I believe a little known fellow by the name of Leonardo did that.
<coz_> TheSheep, toe role of the artis has always been to manipulate the viewer in some sense
<TheSheep> coz_: and I don't mean just simple visual tricks
<troy_s> With little devices like Phi and such.
<TheSheep> troy_s: Phi?
<coz_> hold on guys I have visitor brb
<troy_s> phi is arguably the most powerful thing you will ever learn about art.
<troy_s> The entire 'western' aesthetic is built upon it.
<troy_s> Eek sheep
<troy_s> Wiki phi quickly.
<TheSheep> ah, golden division :)
<troy_s> Phi is the cornerstone of just about everything.
<troy_s> If you want a quick and dirty guide to learned western classical composition, divide your zone into thirds.
<troy_s> Which, as a loose approximation, is phil
<troy_s> not phil
<troy_s> phi
<troy_s> lol
<TheSheep> :)
<troy_s> Locate the 'gravity' centres of your objects on those zones of phi
<TheSheep> yes, I know, I just didn't connect the term
<coz_> troy_s, that concept is there only to be broken by the artis other wise it is useless by itself
<troy_s> and you have immediate compositional classical 'acceptability'
<troy_s> well you should probably at least know about it before you go ranting about composition -- how does that sound?
<coz_> troy_s, better :)
<TheSheep> "write as you speak"
<troy_s> of course, it falls apart in true indigenous african tribal art for example
<TheSheep> "don't speak as you write"
<troy_s> even early portraiture went through evolution in terms of composition.
<coz_> troy_s, you mean phi falls apart there ?
<troy_s> Yes.
<troy_s> Phi is a byproduct of the good old Ren and Romantic era.
<troy_s> Or rather, capitalized on it in terms of composition.
<troy_s> I would probably bet that the numerical value of Phi applies (in terms of Fibonacci) to compositional elemetns.
<coz_> troy_s, you need to do more indepth studying that concept is iherantly human by nature all people have utilized regardels of it hidde nauter
<troy_s> Although I can't say for certain.
<TheSheep> the archeaologists working on Mayan sculptures coudn't sketch them -- they were too alien
<troy_s> Like I said, I can't say one way or the other.  I know that compositionally it falls apart.
<coz_> TheSheep, that i because they are hot artists
<coz_> sorry brb
<troy_s> There is a group that, for example, builds their composition around entirely symmetrical spheres.
<troy_s> (Which to a western learned eye looks ... ... less than 'Widescreen Enhanced' :) )
<TheSheep> troy_s: you need cultural background to feel comfortable with such art
<TheSheep> troy_s: you need to grow up surrounded by it
<troy_s> TheSheep: BINGO
<troy_s> You need to learn it.
<troy_s> Which is why developing for something such as Ubuntu has such amazing potential.  You need to account for those sorts of issues.
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's one reason why computer art design is so slow -- *generations* need to pass until something becomes widely accepted
<TheSheep> troy_s: technology develops fast, people's expectations and understanding -- not
<TheSheep> troy_s: I think that's one of the reasons why all interfaces from roughly the same time are so similar
<troy_s> TheSheep -- but take a look at the age of folks participating
<troy_s> I have had _massively_ complicated discussions with say, someone like Pingunz -- who is 14!
<troy_s> The times, they are a' changin'.
<TheSheep> 90% of the edge gets forgotten, we only remember those who became mainstream
<troy_s> Historically.
<troy_s> But again, in the last 20 years one could argue that civilization has 'advanced' (eek if there is such a term) more than say, 400 years prior?
* TheSheep plays Simon and Garfunkel
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> Needless to say, turning this around again, we _need_ these discussions in Free Software.
<troy_s> We need Free Design.
<TheSheep> troy_s: personally, I think you can only talk about "advancement" when looking back, meaning "how similar we were to what we are now"
<troy_s> We can't rely on companies to dictate this process... as it is far more ubiquitous than anyone could have forseen even 10 years ago.
<troy_s> Yes.
<troy_s> It gets tricky -- agreed.
<TheSheep> well, opensource can explore much more paths at a time
<TheSheep> yet, what counts in the end, is pure marketting
<TheSheep> becsue interfaces need to be popular to be usable
<troy_s> Wow.  Quite the statement.
<TheSheep> troy_s: how do you know that blue-colored text is clickable on a web page?
<troy_s> What about tabbed browsing?
<troy_s> How about browsing using a browser at all?
<troy_s> Virtual workspaces?
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> You might be overlooking a little ibt.
<troy_s> bit.
<TheSheep> troy_s: oh, opera had an equivalent of tabbed browsing before msie 3
<TheSheep> troy_s: it didn't get popular until firefox
<troy_s> but you get my point
<troy_s> surely.  The Free Software community can develop things long before they hit mainstream.
<troy_s> And in fact, with a little more attention and power, shape the 'mainstream'.
<troy_s> As arguably Apache, OpenSSH, Firefox, etc all have.
<TheSheep> troy_s: but some features have the "chicken and egg" problem
<troy_s> We just need to keep the fight up regarding Art and Design.
<TheSheep> troy_s: look at Raskin's designs -- he should have dominated the marked 5 years ago
<troy_s> To be continued... Daughter time for me here.
<troy_s> Now go bang out those sketches we talked about ;)
<TheSheep> troy_s: but they need getting used to them -- and not gradually, you basically need cold turkey
<TheSheep> same with dvorak keyboard, vim, etc.
<troy_s> TheSHeep -- yes... the right 'crowd' needs to adopt it to make it sheik.  But again, that is a whole other dynamic.
<troy_s> Now sketch :)
<TheSheep> hah
* TheSheep opens gimp and begins pixel-pushing :P
<troy_s> that's why i love you
<TheSheep> troy_s: what is the main purpose of ubuntu? tv+newspaper+typewritter kind of device?
<TheSheep> in the long-range view
<troy_s> Wow.
<troy_s> Computers are everything.  They are art, literature, science, music, communication, entertainment, ...
<troy_s> In fact, there is little that they are not.
<coz_> ok briefly back
<coz_> so is everyone painting?
<coz_> drawing?
<coz_> sculpting?
<coz_> troy_s, if  you are still here i would disagree and say that computers are just tools to get thoses things accomplished in
<coz_> it is still the person who manipulates the tools that make the difference, otheriwse it is just a box with a viewing screen
<TheSheep> coz_: it's the door to other world
<coz_> TheSheep, well if the person creates that world
<coz_> :)
<TheSheep> coz_: with only computer alone -- yes. networked computer is a whole different deal
<coz_> TheSheep, mm would you explaint that :)
<TheSheep> coz_: you're no more the only interesting person in that world
<coz_> TheSheep, so what the gourp is more imprtant than the individual?
<coz_> group
<TheSheep> coz_: who cares about importance? the things you do with your computer are not just your creations alone -- they can syrprise you
<coz_> but i control my creations how can they surprise me?
<TheSheep> coz_: when I just started programming, I had a terrible problem -- I've written games, but nobody wanted to play them, and they were no challenge for me, as I've writtem them
<coz_> ok
<TheSheep> coz_: once there are strangers inside your computer -- you can get surprised
<coz_> TheSheep, by their individual rections!
<coz_> ?
<coz_> reactions
<TheSheep> coz_: by anything *they& create
<coz_> TheSheep, i am still not clear, very groggy no sleep, forgive me, but most of what I see everywhere from others is not reallt art it is.....well not art
<TheSheep> coz_: imagine you're a writer, but your library consists only of books you've written yourself. pretty boring.
<coz_> TheSheep, no that I don't understand
<coz_> how can what you directly create be boring?
<TheSheep> coz_: you run out of things to create fast
<TheSheep> coz_: you begin repeating
<coz_> TheSheep, mm no ..only a limited mind runs out of stuff... each work is a building block to the next so on and so on
<TheSheep> coz_: soon your creations degenerate
<coz_> not poassible if theyare true creations
<coz_> they are intrinsically attached and one born from the other
<TheSheep> coz_: well, ymmv
<coz_> ymmv?????
<coz_> bad with abbreviations :)
<TheSheep> your mileage might vary
<TheSheep> I always find things created by others more interesting
<coz_> TheSheep, well i find good things created by others interesting not all things
<TheSheep> isn't it great how different people are?
<coz_> and I do rely on feedback by others as to what they think of something i have created at times
<coz_> TheSheep, yeah it is !
<coz_> TheSheep, but it is also nice that we are all the same as well
<TheSheep> personally, I'm often obsessed with things I create -- until I finish them, then I often throw them away or reuse for something different
<coz_> TheSheep, are you in the states/
<TheSheep> coz_: no, Poland
<coz_> TheSheep, ok then you may understand this more than an american will
<coz_> when i have been to a fine museum with great works of art, the elicit in everyon that views them nearly identical reactions
<coz_> i have watched as a large group of people all gather around on van gogh in a room as if it were a magnet
<coz_> one van gogh
<TheSheep> coz_: the reactions would be different if the people were there alone
<coz_> no I have watched that as well
<coz_> same painting one person same reaction
<TheSheep> of course, a good artist will pass the message almost intact
<TheSheep> but worse pieces are not as consistent
<coz_> TheSheep, yes because herelizes that after all is said and done we are more alike than different
<TheSheep> and sometimes they are meant to have different reactions
<coz_> the well worse pieces rearly show up in a museum with a competant curator
<coz_> TheSheep, I have seen people who draw extremely well and still believe they are an artist yet nothing they produce has any semblance to a piece of art
<TheSheep> coz_: well, there are some mathematical proofs that I consider works of art, but anyone else would just shrug at
<TheSheep> them
<coz_> TheSheep, yes I agree the concept of fine art is in many fields not as universally seen or recognized as art but none the less materpieces
<TheSheep> coz_: it's also a little closed circle -- to get to museum, a piece needs to be widely recognized as art, to be widely recognized as art, it must appear in museums
<TheSheep> coz_: the things that appeal only to some people are not considered masterpieces, no matter how good they are.
<coz_> TheSheep, well it must be recognized as art first then the artist is asked if he would approve the giving of a piece
<coz_> TheSheep, well in the fine arts painting sculpture etc, it is clear what is and is not art by nearly everyone that vbiews it
<troy_s> <coz_> troy_s, if  you are still here i would disagree and say that computers are just tools to get thoses things accomplished in
<troy_s> <coz_> it is still the person who manipulates the tools that make the difference, otheriwse it is just a box with a viewing screen
<troy_s> The fundamental problem with that is we are gradually 'migrating' into this frontier
<coz_> troy_s, the frontier?
<troy_s> It _was_ a tool, and MS and Apple would have you believe that it is an expensive gadget -- it somehow validates them as 'brokers' of this gadget
<troy_s> Yes.  Look at us here...
<coz_> yeah?
<troy_s> Two people, who, less than 30 years ago, would never have met each other.
<TheSheep> heh, I basically live in a computer -- work, play, learn
<troy_s> The computer is far more than a simple tool.
<troy_s> Exactly.
<coz_> well no it is stilla tools a magnificent tool for beginning communications etc but none the less a tool
<troy_s> Which is why it is all the more important to drive Free Software into the future.  It is more than simple 'get MS and Apple' out of our houses, it is forging a new world without "This Click Brought To You By Pepsi"
<troy_s> It is far more than communications.
<coz_> yes I meant that
<troy_s> There are many things that you cannot experience _without_ a computer.
<coz_> mmm troy_s ok such as what?
<troy_s> It delivers art, music, entertainment, but it also
<troy_s> facilitates science
<coz_> so far tools
<coz_> yes
<troy_s> drives future art (permitting people who otherwise couldn't utilize a brush for example)
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> We are built on tools.
<coz_> still a tool
<troy_s> So is a wedge
<coz_> yes
<troy_s> So is a pen
<coz_> yes
<troy_s> So is a brain
<coz_> no
<TheSheep> troy_s: ever read Lem? :)
<troy_s> The point is that we are fundamentally ourselves based on the tools that society has created.
<coz_> a brain is what allows you to have the ability to build the tools and to utilize them
<troy_s> (how about that neechee guy?)
<coz_> neechee guy?
<troy_s> Is there a clear division between a brain and a computer?
<coz_> yes because the brain is you and the computer you built by way of you
<TheSheep> my ~ is part of me
<troy_s> The real matter is that we are actually discussing such lofty ideals around a computer -- a 'tool' -- but perhaps the last tool we will ever need to invent.
<coz_> take it out of your head and what is left
<TheSheep> including large part of memory
<coz_> ?/
<TheSheep> coz_: take any organ out and what is left? ;)
<coz_> the rest including the brain
<troy_s> By the year 2018, according to Ray Kurzweil and some conservative mathmatics, the _average_ desktop computer will have exceeded the processing and capacity of the human brain.
<troy_s> Is that something you want dictated and controlled by Sony, Apple, Microsoft?
<coz_> troy_s, maybe but still a tool
<troy_s> Take two minds apart
<troy_s> and you lose all sorts of things.
<coz_> ok
<troy_s> We are tools.
<troy_s> (I am a tool :) )
<coz_> what do you mean take 2 minda part??
<troy_s> Look at the Egyptians.
<coz_> ok
<troy_s> Built pyramids using whips and a few hundred of those tools ;)
<troy_s> It is a semantic division not worth making.
<coz_> yes
<troy_s> As arguably, _everything_ is a tool.   Even food on some level.
<troy_s> Getting back to art though,
<coz_> yes art
<troy_s> you made a statement regarding 'artists should make those decisions' -- as someone who has studied art, you would know, that the division between art and science is a late 20th century division.
<TheSheep> actually, there only 4 kinds of objects -- things to eat, things to mate with, things to run away from and rocks
<coz_> yes they are actually 2 elements of the human condition that prgress in tnadum
<troy_s> Lol sheep
<troy_s> ROCKS
<troy_s> sharp rocks
<troy_s> The earlier "free thinkers" were very 'jack of all trades' often practicing art, music, mathematics, science, etc.
<troy_s> I guess DaV would probably be a rather good example of such, but Lord Byron, Francisco Bacon, to name a few, would also fall into that class.
<coz_> becasue the art "mind' is not chined to one experience
<coz_> chained
<TheSheep> today's science is very limited to what's provable by experiment, but it goes away slowly too.
<troy_s> Well again, it was late 20th century
<troy_s> ok out for a bit boys.
<troy_s> chat soon.
<coz_> ok let me tell you what I believe about art and science they are the two pillars tha hold the roof over a society
<coz_> when On pillar cracks the other does as well and the society falls
<coz_> the imprtance of art and it critical inclusion in society has been poorly recognized in the past 2 centuries
<TheSheep> what one society considers a fall, others consider rise
<coz_> TheSheep, the rising one ahs two intact pillars
<coz_> the US is something like 14th globaslly for education
<coz_> one of the critical reasons for that is that the educational system here believes that most people are verbal in essence and not visual
<coz_> they have consistently fallen in the listing for decades
<coz_> without art and science the civilization falls
<TheSheep> coz_: the problem in this scale is that you can no longer judge "better" and "worse" independently, because what one society considers better, other views as worse (we usually consider things more similar to our culture better, and the more distant -- evil)
<coz_> TheSheep, to an extewnt I believ e you may be right but in the whole picture of civilization i would disagree they all the same elements in common
<TheSheep> coz_: what we can call an end of cyvilization, the people living just after that might consider a revolution
<TheSheep> coz_: we just selectively pick the common elements that fit our view
<TheSheep> coz_: and discard the ones that don't fit
<TheSheep> coz_: like the ideals of democracy -- every single Greek had slaves, isn't it funny?
<coz_> there si always a cycle that has ocured with societies throughout time, yes this generation thks this way the next rebels that thinking
<coz_> and the imprtant things of one become the fivious of the other
<coz_> frivikous
<TheSheep> the farther away a civilisation or society is, the more different it is -- the more primitive and "evil" we consider it
<coz_> typonese i am fluent in:)
<TheSheep> it's the same with intelligence
<coz_> TheSheep, well that concept is ignorance not anything else
<coz_> if we view it as evil that is ignorance
<TheSheep> we consider intelligent those animals, that think and behave similar to us
<troy_s> Quite astute.
<TheSheep> the more different an animal is, the more stupid we consider it
<troy_s> It is indeed a relative world... Einstein proved that many moons ago, we blew up a bunch of people to solidify its truth, and we still have yet to accept it philosophically.
<TheSheep> while some octopods can solve complicated problems
<coz_> TheSheep, I have not seen that approach for some time what I have seen is that the furtuer away a species is from mamanals the less we trust it because we have no foundation to undersatnd its point of view a lsnake for instance
<troy_s> We either consider it stupid or we eat it.
<TheSheep> troy_s: usually both :)
<coz_> lol
<coz_> this is all fine talk but really not nesecary in the arts
<TheSheep> coz_: what's necessary in arts then?
<coz_> TheSheep, ability and talent
<troy_s> Erm... ability is training.
<coz_> and they do not necesarily go hand in hand
<troy_s> How about execution?
<troy_s> Sometimes the catalyst for proper execution isn't at all the agent conducting it.
<coz_> troy_s, execution si the culmination of the talent and ability combined
<coz_> i used to have arguments with some fo the art profs at CMU
<troy_s> Hardly.  I know many _extremely_ talented folks who can't generate anything of a sizable body because they struggle with the execution.
<coz_> they insisted that composition was the act of creation
<troy_s> Composition, too, is learned.
<coz_> i insisted that it ws the final work
<TheSheep> coz_: how do you recognize art? it *says* something
<coz_> just as mozart had his compositions so does the artis
<coz_> TheSheep, there are rules to an extent that diferenciate an excellent executyed drawing perfect in every detail form a work of art which may not be perfect at all
<TheSheep> it says more than can be communicated normally -- by resonating with you
<TheSheep> then there is the art created by the mentally ill -- which sometimes is just disturbing, and sometimes just too alien to resonate
<coz_> TheSheep, as it would in the next viewer as well
<coz_> i don't know if that would be considered actual art but rather expresions
<TheSheep> coz_: now, I think that you can recognize an artist by the fact that he has something to "say"
<coz_> visually yes
<TheSheep> coz_: mentally, the exact medium is irrelevant
<coz_> yes a musical compoistion same thing
<TheSheep> coz_: there are artist -- massagers
<TheSheep> :)
<coz_> well now you cross a fine line from a skilled crafts man and an artist
<TheSheep> nah, craftsman just does his job -- he doesn't say anything
<coz_> well a potter acn throw a thousands pots with not one of themn being art
<TheSheep> he can do the job well or bad, but there is nothing more in it
<coz_> exactly thus a massager
<coz_> it is good or it isn't did he do the job correctly or not
<TheSheep> but there are massager artists who turned their craft into art
<coz_> unlikely
<coz_> craft cannot be art
<coz_> first
<coz_> it is craft
<coz_> nonthing more
<coz_> it is a skill that can be done well or poorly
<TheSheep> yes, we use that word to say "work that doesn;t contain art"
<coz_> a great programmer and poor one
<TheSheep> coz_: ooh, there are artist programmers and there are dumb craftsmen
<coz_> TheSheep,  yes i ws about to qaulify that stement :)
<coz_> caght myself with that one
<TheSheep> there are also dumb programmer artists and good craftsmen, of course
<TheSheep> all varietes
<coz_> yes but a massger no
<coz_> a magician no
<TheSheep> heh
<TheSheep> coz_: dancer?
<coz_> absolutely
<TheSheep> coz_: most dancers are just craftsmen, tools in the hands of the art director
<coz_> but there is an art to the expression of dance that goes beyond ecpression and becomes art to the viewing ausiences great ballet dancers how many have yo heard of
<TheSheep> as with any craft
<coz_> well a person who makes baskets  i cant imagine it becoming art other than by art dealers who ssay it is
<TheSheep> coz_: that's because some crafts require much specialistic knowledge to be able to really see the results
<coz_> TheSheep, well being as tired as i am i cant argue too much with you ::))
<TheSheep> coz_: only when you know something about making baskets, you can appreciate the subtle things that make a basket a piece of art
<TheSheep> sorry, I'm too forcible
<TheSheep> that's because of strong beliefs, I guess
<coz_> TheSheep, a baslet will be a basket unless it has become the last remaining atifact of apeople who have dissapeared and even then it is more of a find than art
<coz_> I did a series of african masks that found to be a real form of art by african tribes
<coz_> not only did they have the sills necesary to create the masks but they were used to express an dinfluence the viewers of the ceramonies
<coz_> but in the final view they were still a craft an important one and after the series was finished ai realized that they are just baskets
<TheSheep> coz_: the art is not in the object itself
<TheSheep> coz_: consider things that can be easily copied
<coz_> TheSheep, the look can be copied not the content
<TheSheep> coz_: is the act of copying -- creating a piece of art?
<coz_> no
<coz_> the composition has already been finished ... is the conductor and the orchestra  mozart?
<TheSheep> coz_: it's possible to copy objects atom by atom -- make them identical with precission impossible for our senses
<TheSheep> coz_: which one is a copy and which one original then?
<coz_> not a painting please i don't want to be alinve if that happens nothing will have meaning then
<TheSheep> anything goes
<coz_> TheSheep,  well in that case there is also the theroy of entropy when lconing something so there will be differences on the atomic level that will eventually show up visually
<TheSheep> coz_: yes, but they will show on the original and on the copy -- not identical, but still how do you tell which one is the copy?
<coz_> by scrutiny
<coz_> how many forgers have copies great works of art down to the origins of the pigments yet they were found out sooner or later and later mainly becasue of the money involved
<TheSheep> coz_: and how many of the destroyed copies were in fact originals, falsely claimed copies?
<coz_> prbaly none and none of the forgeries are destroyd either
<coz_> they are a testament to ingenuity
<coz_> but not art they are a curiosity but still not the original
<TheSheep> coz_: what about digital music? it can be copied losslessly
<coz_> yes
<TheSheep> coz_: or any other digital art
<coz_> yes
<TheSheep> or books, poems, notes
<coz_> yes
<TheSheep> which one is the original?
<coz_> but not in the origianl hand writing
<TheSheep> coz_: what if the books was typed at a computer?
<coz_> you can copy anything but you did not creat it
<coz_> and the creator, thankfully in our society , is generallt cpyrighted
<TheSheep> don't get me started on copy rights :)
<coz_> TheSheep,  I hold over 37 copyrights at this typing session
<TheSheep> coz_: in fact much more
<coz_> ??
<TheSheep> coz_: according to USA law, *anything* you created is copyrighted to you
<TheSheep> coz_: without any need to register it
<TheSheep> coz_: you can claim the copy right at any moment
<coz_> TheSheep, yes to an extent in that by law it is copywritten but a copyright affords other perks like free legal service if you want to sue the copyer
<TheSheep> coz_: lets get back to creation
<coz_> ok that must be a sore spot for you
<coz_> sorry
<TheSheep> :)
<TheSheep> coz_: I should be going to bed slowly
<TheSheep> coz_: the sun is rising
<coz_> me too guy :)
<coz_> sun is rising?? where are you again europe?
<TheSheep> thanks for the chat
<coz_> no problems
<TheSheep> coz_: Poland
<coz_> that right sorry ai am tired
<coz_> ok sleep well guy
<TheSheep> sweett dreams
<coz_> ok
<lapo> hi
<lizardking_> Hello artworker, oransoda-look is now on lanchpad, but I have some problem with launchpad
<lizardking_> https://launchpad.net/oransoda-look
<lizardking_> https://launchpad.net/~iacopo-masi/+branch/oransoda-look/main here the error
<lapo> yo dborg
<lapo> dborg: news about lua engine or scratchpad (or <insert cool software here> :-))?
<troy_s> Lua is in the next push from Daniel
<troy_s> greets lapo!@
<lapo> yo troy_s
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: are you there?
<Jmak> I am here
<TheSheep> hi Jmak !
<Jmak> Hi
<TheSheep> Jmak: anything to do for xubuntu?
<Jmak> Now we are discussing liven up the desktop but nothing is sure yet
<Jmak> Looking for some good looking icon theme
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: i am here
<TuxCrafter> missed the message:-D
<Jmak> Ok, I checked out the zen icons, I am not impressed
<TuxCrafter> now lets analyze the problems around the xubuntu desktop
<TheSheep> Jmak: I've done some asking on #xubuntu and around, and people do seem to prefer the xfce default layout, with the large centered panel at the bottom, or at least don't mind it
<Jmak> I know but jani thinks we should go with the gnome layout
<TuxCrafter> first rule we make: never mess the default icons, people are afraid of changes
<TheSheep> Jmak: if you want to make new icons, best concentrate on the ones that are visible by default + folders
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: agreed
<Jmak> What do you suggest?
<TuxCrafter> what do think is best in this face
<TuxCrafter> fase
<Jmak> I like dream linus icons but I noticed some incosistencies
<Jmak> Do you know what icons do they use?
<TuxCrafter> we can make a system them lets us easily change the way everything is displayed
<TuxCrafter> like icons, desktop layout
<TuxCrafter> so no real programming just layout and icons
<TuxCrafter> we have tango rules
<TuxCrafter> that we can use
<troy_s> greetings jmak
<TuxCrafter> but we can use more
<troy_s> ltns
<Jmak> Hi
<Jmak> I suggested to jani to clean up the theme folder from the prehistoric themes and leave no more than 10
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: when i look at the default menu of xubuntu there are apps with no icons
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: something like gnome's integrated themes?
<TuxCrafter> also to change the layout
<TuxCrafter> instantly go to the layout of dreamlinux or zenwalk
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: I think that not all the menu entries should really have icons -- some should have the icons removed
<Jmak> What layout? Desktop
<TuxCrafter> or whatever
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: only leave icons for the main apps
<TuxCrafter> it think it it really ugly to have apps with no icons
<TuxCrafter> when you look at zenwalk every app has it own icons
<Jmak> I think we a re the only gnome style xfce layout and we have to take adventage out of it
<TuxCrafter> yes of cource
<Jmak> Should I make icons?
<TheSheep> personally, I think it's pretty ugly and unusable to have a mix of undistinguishable colorful icons everywhere
<TuxCrafter> exactly
<TheSheep> if there are more than 4-5 icons in a group, they become meaningless
<Jmak> Agree
<TuxCrafter> so the icons should match
<TheSheep> so there should be fewer icons :)
<Jmak> Have to follow the tango guidelines
<TuxCrafter> and disticueable (how do I say that i am not englisch
<TuxCrafter> different form each other
<TuxCrafter> why less icons why not better one?
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: that's oxymoron
<TuxCrafter> ?
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: they either match or are distinct
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: can't have both, at least not on large scale
<TuxCrafter> they should have the same look and feel like a set
<TuxCrafter> like with tango and still diffrent
<TuxCrafter> different
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: can we at least dim in the menus the icons for less important apps?
<Jmak> I can look at the tango guidlines to see  Ican do something
<TuxCrafter> like the paste and copy icon you not it is a set but still difrent
<TuxCrafter> how do you mean? do you want to remove them
<TuxCrafter> I want to add some nice icons there
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: remove them, or make them less stick out -- for example, make them grayscale
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: they hurt usability
<TuxCrafter> but what is wrong with nice icons? Jmak do you think we should remove more icons?
<TuxCrafter> it believe the printing tool should have a icon with a printer
<Jmak> We use what comes with the icon set
<TuxCrafter> and Xfburn should have a nice icon with a cdburner or a cd
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: anywhere you have more than 4 icons in a group, they stop being icons and start to be just a mess of colors and shapes -- that's how human perception works. A group of more than 4-5 elements is perceived as a whole
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: shall I quote scientific papers from Apple and Microsoft?
<TuxCrafter> so you say that if i open the app-finder tool and every app has a icon people can not distinguish them?
<Jmak> I like the suse icons
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: no, I say they stop looking at the icons -- they don't have a function anymore
<TuxCrafter> Yes post some info, apple uses a lot icons
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: icons can be used to higlight important entries in the menu and to ease the navigation
<TheSheep> ok
<TuxCrafter> I believe you should be able to look at the icon and know what the program should do
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: of course, but if you have 10+ icons in a menu, you don't look at each and every one sepearately
<TuxCrafter> so tho cut you have a scissor
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: yuo just see a mass of colored objects
<TuxCrafter> you had a article about that?
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: a couple, looking for them now
<TuxCrafter> Jmak He is going to undermine everything i want to do :-D I want to have nice icons everywere but he want to remove them :-D
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: nice icons are still important
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: can you make a new exit icon :-D the door is hideous
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: you can consentrate on the important ones -- web browser, text processor, etc.
<Jmak> I think to have the home and the computer icons should be on the desktop because the avarage user uses them
<Jmak> I look into it
<TuxCrafter> agree
<TheSheep> Jmak: or just put them on the large panel on the bottom ;)
<TuxCrafter> also what tools do you use
<TuxCrafter> inktscap
<TuxCrafter> xala
<TuxCrafter> xara
<Jmak> I dont know jani agree to that, he look a t thing a bit conservatively
<TuxCrafter> I personally don't have links to folders, but i am not a avarage user i am a advanced user
<Jmak> We have to look at things from the avarage user point of view
<TuxCrafter> that is what i mean
<TheSheep> if you put the home icon somewhere on the panels, you have it solved and as a bonus you don't need that 'show desktop' button that much
<TuxCrafter> you have to think about the average users mind
<Jmak> And everyone so far i know uses lots of desktop icons
<TuxCrafter> indeed realy a lot of them, but i don't
<Jmak> Including myself because i am lazy and i put evrything on the desktop
<TuxCrafter> but if i set someone to work with xubntu they don't have a idea of were to start :-D
<TuxCrafter> everyting is alien
<Jmak> That is why i suggested the menu button
<Jmak> But jani said it was not viable
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: we are going to set up some configuration scrips that you can run and changes your icons windows etcetra
<Jmak> I didn't quite understood why
<Jmak> I am not a programmer
<TuxCrafter> I am
<TuxCrafter> thats why we work togheter
<TuxCrafter> i do the scripting
<TuxCrafter> you do the graphical
<TuxCrafter> I have read a total gimp book
<Jmak> So what am i suppose todo
<TuxCrafter> You can make nice looking desktops
<TuxCrafter> and learn me what you changes
<TuxCrafter> so I can automate it procces
<TuxCrafter> so that there will be a script
<Jmak> What exactly
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: here's one paper to start reading, I'll provide some more up to date ones soon :)
<TuxCrafter> that the average user can use to change the looks
<TheSheep> http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Miller/
<TuxCrafter> TheSheep: Thanks, And I understand what you mean by information processing and that the human is able to distinguish no more than 5 elements fast
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: I'm not against icons in principle. I just don't like them packed en masse all together
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: do you have a zenwalk desktop at you command
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: maybe there could be some separators added in the menus -- but they are automaticlaly generated...
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: I wan't to show you some examples
<Jmak> Sounds as a good reading i bookmarded it
<Jmak> ok
<TuxCrafter> separators are the key and grouping of element
<TuxCrafter> TheSheep: I totally see how we can implement it!
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: but also removing or dimming the less important, "helper" apps could help -- especially the ones that are not normally called from the menu
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: like the image viewer
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: or document viewer
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: or media player
<TuxCrafter> Yes, or magnification or collorchange when moudseover
<TuxCrafter> mouse hover
<TheSheep> well, actually the last one is alone in his submenu...
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: well, special effects are not important to me
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: gaim and xarchiver could be dimmed too
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: and the orage calendar
<TuxCrafter> TheSheep: do you now think the grouping of apps like Office, Graphics and the apps that come after that are distinguishable
<TuxCrafter> by the icons
<TuxCrafter> there are mostly in groups <7
<TheSheep> right, my menu differs from the default a little ;)
<BHSPitMonkey> ahoy
<TheSheep> hi BHSPitMonkey
<BHSPitMonkey> yo
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: can you thell me when a app uses a tango style icon, a scalable icon, or a icon that gomes with the apps
<Jmak> Not sure
<TuxCrafter> can you give me some docu on how xfce nows with icon to use by with app etcetra
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: can you become the master in the xfce icon system
<TuxCrafter> TheSheep: do you know who knows more about xfce icons
<Jmak> what do you mean master
<TuxCrafter> the man that knows the stuff
<TuxCrafter> :-P
<Jmak> I am not that familiar with the icon use
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: it first checks in the current theme. if found, the icons for specified size are preffered -- if not found, then the closest one is scalled. If not found in the theme, the fallback themes are searched. The last fallback is always the hicolor theme. If still not found, /usr/share/picmaps is tried.
<TheSheep> pixmaps, I mean
<TuxCrafter> ok and that is like the tango specs
<TuxCrafter> where is the documentation about this behaviour
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: freedesktop.org
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: and gtk.org
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: do you got it freedesktop.org http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-theme-spec/icon-theme-spec-latest.html
<TuxCrafter> now we can find out how everything behaves like it does that is a good step
<Jmak> I bookmarked it
<TheSheep> -_-
<TheSheep> I have no more questions
<TuxCrafter> TheSheep had some good ideas to increase visible usability. But that will need xfce programming to be implemented. and will raise protested. It is good to do that in a further fase
<TuxCrafter> TheSheep can you live with that
<TuxCrafter> first do some basic fixing that to to bigger stuff that needs programming
<TuxCrafter> that should be than
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: I don't think *my* propositions require additional programming
<TheSheep> TuxCrafter: I have it set up like that in my menu
<TuxCrafter> screen
<TuxCrafter> I am thinking about separators, changing icons on priority, maybe magnification
<TuxCrafter> Jmak: can you live with the current tango style ?
<TuxCrafter> or can you point me other icon sets you do prefer
<Jmak> Until we dont find a better one live with it
<Jmak> But  the gray tango would definately go better with the artwork than the blue one
<TuxCrafter> ok, I suggest this you are going to fix every out of place ugly icon you can find with a new one that match the tango look
<Jmak> I see what i can do
<TuxCrafter> you also have to do some to documenting, else now body cant help you
<TuxCrafter> you have to document everything you changes
<Jmak> what documenting
<TuxCrafter> example: where did you find the new icon, what app and file is changes
<TuxCrafter> etcetra
<TuxCrafter> we are not talking about new artwork here
<TuxCrafter> you can use the artwork of dreamlinux, zenwalk ...
<TuxCrafter> creating new stuff is a next fase
<TuxCrafter> get a group of people together that are responsable of the ubuntu icons, xunutu icons, tango developers, zenwalk dreamlinux..
<TuxCrafter> I you have made some changes with documentation you create a zip file with all new icons and file in it
<TuxCrafter> that you can send to me
<TuxCrafter> i will create a script that will change a default install to the new looks
<Jmak> TuxCrafter, I have to go now because i have thilngs to do, talk to you other time
<TuxCrafter> Ok, but what do you think about it
<TuxCrafter> come up with some ideas
<TuxCrafter> TheSheep: are you there?
<Jmak> I think about what I can do
<Jmak> bye
<TuxCrafter> bye and succes
<lapo> hi
<TuxCrafter> I am also going
<TuxCrafter> bye
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-11
<PseudoPlacebo> Everyone message eniseaohelee on AIM. =] 
<TuxCrafter> hello people
<TuxCrafter> I did some testing here with some icon themes
<TuxCrafter> and now everything is srewed :-D with file is being changed that tells the system with theme to use
<TuxCrafter> so i can correct it again :-D
<TuxCrafter> fixed it
<lapo> hi
<BHSPitLappy> yo
<dholbach> hiya
<lizardking_> Hi daniel!
<lizardking_> One question Daniel, Do you work for ubuntu or are you a volunter?
<dholbach> I work for Canonical.
<dholbach> lizardking_: i ran it by hand: http://daniel.holba.ch/art-builder/publish/
<dholbach> lizardking_: so if you add that   deb http://daniel.... line to your /etc/apt/source.list you can always get your newest bzr commits as a package :)
<dholbach> (and ask others to look at it)
<dholbach> ;-)
<lizardking_> dholbach: Ok now I update the wiki of oranSoda then I add the repo ;) big thanks
<dholbach> rock on
<dholbach> great work lizardking_!
<dholbach> :-)
<dholbach> i found some bugs in the art builder so thanks for helping me test it :-)
<dholbach> I'll try to iron them out tomorrow
<lizardking_> dholbach: mhh  gdmflexiserver  is not a lot good make GDm screenhost
<dholbach> gdmflexiserver --xnest
<dholbach> (if you have xnest installed)
<lizardking_> done!
<lizardking_> dholbach: What I write in the wiki about developing that?
<dholbach> lizardking_: what do you mean?
<lizardking_> I have lost the last conversation due to restarting X
<lizardking_> I inser your repo with the theme and then?
<dholbach> what do you want to do?
<dholbach> anything that's not on  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AutomaticArtworkBuilderInstructions ?
<lizardking_> I wan to inform other people about respct "Host on launchpad" as you tell me before..
<dholbach> it'd be nice to have a screenshot of the "Hosted on Launchpad: ..." thing
<dholbach> so people copy THAT url and not the one in the browser
<lizardking_> dholbach: like that? http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/353859312_39c6ab49d8_o.p
<lizardking_> http://farm1.static.flickr.com/147/353859312_39c6ab49d8_o.png
<dholbach> super
<lizardking_> What I can wirte under the shot? (Then I go to study) :P
<dholbach> whatever you like... that people should take THAT url mentioned there
<dholbach> i'll have a look at it later on and correct it if necessary
<dholbach> but thanks a lot for that! :-)
<dholbach> you ROCK!
<lizardking_> dholbach: Now I go.. Information Retrival is calling me. See you later.. no, I don' t rock, I only want to be part of active Ubuntu development. One day I would like to ask to work/get emply for Ubuntu or to become a UbuntuMember
<lizardking_> here last wiki work https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/OranSoda
<lizardking_> bye ;)
<dholbach> bye! :)
<dholbach> again: good work, Iacopo!
<coz_> ah I just downloded from the link above for orange soda and other edgy stuff... um othere than the orange soda thing nothing looks differnet from breeay-dapper-edgy??
<coz_> I am assuming this is just a trial thing...I hope ?
<coz_> anyone else look a this stuff?
<coz_> whoa! just read the header shuttleworth is handling the deisign of feisty??/
<coz_> I am not clear on that concept... they have a non artist ie shuttleworth..making finaldecisions on the art but no non programmer making final decisions on what the applications will be
<lizardking_> coz_: Can me view some screen of artwork?
<coz_> lizardking_, no I had to remove all of my artwork
<lizardking_> coz_: eheh good review  by the final decision :)
<lizardking_> coz_: why?
<lizardking_> dholbach: I'm back to see logs
<coz_> a moderator decide to remove a nude painting of mine of a woman named kassetra , a former programmer moderator , from my gallery
<lizardking_> dholbach: Daniel, I installed my oransoda-look from you repository and.. It is not the version I pushed in the bzr.. I have changed some litte particular between bzr version and the first that I send to you
<lizardking_> coz_: from art.ubuntu.com? Which gallery?
<coz_> lizardking_, it was a personal glleryon the forums,, thepainting had been there for 6 months last year i decided to revise it an repost it
<dholbach> lizardking_: I need to check that out, maybe tomorrow
<dholbach> lizardking_: i'm in a meeting atm
<coz_> lizardking_, yet next that painting is a nyde photo of no one inparticular that they did not remove
<lizardking_> dholbach: ok ok , I thought that was a error. Ok , I leave you.. ok? great work however! Enjoy the meeting!
<dholbach> thanks a lot
<dholbach> i'll tell you when it's fixed
<lizardking_> dholbach: ok, but I will also view the "update" alert!thank! bye! see U tomorrow!
<dholbach> 'update alert'?
<lizardking_> yes :D the mhh... the notification popup of fresh new software...
<dholbach> ah ok
<dholbach> :-)
<lizardking_> coz_: Did you get ungry?
<lizardking_> coz_: Try to talk with the moderator btw
<coz_> lizardking_, did that already they have essetially said because it was former moderator it was inappropriate and it was anude but the fact it it is a politcal move I will show you thepulled piece holdon
<coz_> lizardking_, here is thepulled piece   /home/cosimo321/backgrounds/kassestra.png
<coz_> nono hold on
<coz_> lizardking_, here it is http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/6278/kassestrarv9.png
<lizardking_> coz_: ;)
<coz_> as  result I had to remove all artwork from my gallery until this political censorship is irraticated
<lizardking_> coz_: Mhh I'm with you
<lizardking_> IF in the pic there is any joke or similar towards someone I think It could be no ceonsorship for your art-pic
<coz_> I wanted to urge all artists and viewers to boycott the forums or make a post or letter or something but I have no idea if there are any courageous people out there
<lizardking_> coz_: For me It was only a personal artistic and aesthetic pics..not so immoral
<lizardking_> coz_: now I have to go
<lizardking_> coz_: See U later or tomorrow maybe here ok?
<troy_s> Woot
<troy_s> good to see Daniel in here
<troy_s> dholbach -- when did you say that the next GTK engines push will be with Lua -- I would prefer to develop scripts with the repository version.
<coz_> are there any moderators here for the comunity gallery on ubuntu?
<dholbach> troy_s:
<dholbach> gtk2-engines (1:2.9.1-0ubuntu1) feisty; urgency=low
<dholbach>   * New upstream release:
<dholbach>     - New lua scripting engine by Daniel Borgmann
<dholbach>     - New clearlooks options radius, improvements to glossy style
<dholbach>     - Implement suggestions for clearlooks menu selection
<dholbach>     - Plus many other small bug fixes
<troy_s> coz_ Is that a digital painting?
<dholbach>   * debian/rules:
<dholbach>     - add --enable-lua.
<coz_> troy_s, yes why?
<troy_s> what app did you use?
<troy_s> dholbach: I don't quite understand -- is it in there now without the --enable-lua config param compile?
<coz_> if any of you are amoderator for thecimmunity gallery please remove my name and glllery form the server,, i go under coz and cosimo thank you
<dholbach> troy_s: it's in feisty
<dholbach> troy_s: it's in feisty - with lua support
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ grep -i lua /var/lib/dpkg/info/gtk2-engines.list
<dholbach> /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/engines/libluaengine.so
<dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$
<troy_s> dammit
<troy_s> i swear i looked
<troy_s> sorry
<dholbach> not to worry
<lizardking> hello
<troy_s> greets lizardking
<Masty> hello friends..
<TuxCrafter> hello
<TuxCrafter> say are you all art artists ?
<kwwii> moin
<TuxCrafter> ok do you now dreamlinux xubuntu and zenwalk by look?
<TuxCrafte1> back
<TuxCrafte1> wo wierd
<TuxCrafte1> name changed aver pc freeze
<lapo> re
<BHSPitLappy> yo
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-12
<chuckh> hi Troy, I'm going to run through your steps for bzr.  Thinking of running it on Edgy.  Your run down should still apply pretty closely don't you think?
<chuckh> troy_s: Well, looks like I'll get it.  Right now it's just sitting there doing not much of anything.  Maybe it's usually this slow, I guess I wouldn't know.
<troy_s> sorry
<troy_s> i only get flagged when you type my full irc name troy_s
<troy_s> greets by the way chuckh
<troy_s> Chuckles?
<chuckh> greetings.  Well, lets see.  It's sitting at phase 0/4 and has been
<troy_s> if you get a handle on mastering bzr checkout
<troy_s> ok
<troy_s> weird...
<troy_s> it shouldn't be taking quite that long.
<troy_s> are you trying that blubuntu sample i sent?
<chuckh> no, it's been 5 min
<troy_s> _way_ too long
<troy_s> ctrl c it...
<troy_s> lets see if i can resolve the issue... blubuntu?
<chuckh> at present legacyhuman though I had tried blubuntu and had the same results
<troy_s> weird.
<troy_s> is fetch showing a progress bar?
<troy_s> it should show 1/4 with a progress bar.
<chuckh> yes but it's blank
<chuckh> 0/4 with a blank bar
<chuckh> this is on Edgy, would it matter?
<troy_s> ok... i dont think you require to register your ssh key
<troy_s> no
<troy_s> i am on feisty...
<troy_s> oh crap
<troy_s> erm
<troy_s> maybe
<troy_s> but i doubt it.
<troy_s> i think i pulled from feisty on edgy etc.
<troy_s> oh damn
<troy_s> you might need to issue a bzr init
<troy_s> as your first go before you get tumbling...
<troy_s> so try
<chuckh> just like that
<troy_s> bzr init
<troy_s> then the pull
<troy_s> yeah give it a shot
<chuckh> waiting
<troy_s> tell me if it still stalls at 1/4
<troy_s> you just recently apt-got bzr right?
<chuckh> even just getting to that stage takes forever
<troy_s> so you are toying with the newest repo version i take it.
<troy_s> it can.
<troy_s> i don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but it does sometimes take a while.
<chuckh> got an error.  ubuntu directory exists.  I'll remove it and try again.
<troy_s> ah
<troy_s> yeah just rm-rf it
<troy_s> in fact, if you are going to bother, you might as well checkout the legacy human then you can apply your patch
<chuckh> that is what I was thinking of doing.  I'm still at 0/4 with a blank progress bar.
<troy_s> well wtf?
<troy_s> shouldn't take that long.
<troy_s> give it a minute then we sort it out.
<troy_s> usually the network lights blink during that
<troy_s> are yours?
<chuckh> well, I can tell the traffic is zip.  If they are it's from something else.
<troy_s> let me test the legacy-human link
<troy_s> where is the bzr location you are using for it?
<chuckh> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu
<chuckh> I grabbed it off launchpad
<troy_s> okie trying it...
<troy_s> nope... leeches right away for me.
<troy_s> something strange going in at your end.
<troy_s> in another term, see if anything is in your ~/ubuntu directory
<chuckh> got an error finally.
<chuckh> bzr: ERROR: exceptions.AssertionError:
<troy_s> wow
<troy_s> that is a problem... i wonder if there are some strange depends -- you just did apt-get install bzr and that was all eh?
<chuckh> came from python.  Let me try another machine.  I may have a strange build environment here.
<troy_s> try removing it then re apt-get it.
<troy_s> yes...
<troy_s> very well a python issue!
<troy_s> i'll be around chuck, going to play a card game with my daughter for a few moments.
<troy_s> see if you can fix your python issue.
<troy_s> then i'll show you how to push
<chuckh> worked on another machine that's more of a default setup
<chuckh> almost missed it because it was so fast.
<chuckh> ;)
<troy_s> so chuckh, whilst i am playing, have a peek over the
<troy_s> structure
<troy_s> you can also pull like this "bzr checkout <Source> <dest>"
<chuckh> ok
<chuckh> that'll be needed
<z_diver> troy_s, It's chuck again on the machine with the working bzr install.  I've verified the gtkrc works on Fiesty.
<z_diver> But Legacy Human isn't there anymore.
<troy_s> ???
<troy_s> legacy human isn't in that checkout?
<z_diver> yeah, but I don't think it's installed by default at least
<troy_s> it is probalby in extra themes
<troy_s> needless to say, you can apply your fix
<z_diver> the checkout worked fine though.
<z_diver> so what's the best way to go about it.
<troy_s> it is very simple
<troy_s> just change the file in question
<troy_s> bzr add basically will put a full list of files
<z_diver> troy_s, bzr add <path to project on launchpad>?
<troy_s> ok
<troy_s> so back
<troy_s> lets assume we have dir foobar
<troy_s> bzr init
<troy_s> do a bzr whoami to see who you are registered as
<troy_s> okie?
<troy_s> is the information correct?, if not, follow the instructions 'bzr whoami 'Joe Blow <j.b@gorg.com>'
<troy_s> okie z_diver ?
<troy_s> assuming we have say
<troy_s> ~/foobar
<troy_s> as your project directory
<troy_s> with subfiles a, b and c
<troy_s> bzr will ONLY track
<troy_s> files added via bzr add
<troy_s> which means that for an existing branch, you need do nothing UNLESS you are adding a fresh file
<troy_s> in your case, you will probably just update files for the first bit
<troy_s> which means that bzr already knows what belongs in that package
<z_diver> i'm here now
<z_diver> troy_s, whoami comes out correct, I ran bzr add <the_gtkrc_file_in_question>
<troy_s> ok
<troy_s> erm
<troy_s> you don't need to add it
<troy_s> because technically it is already part of the download
<troy_s> follow me?
<z_diver> k
<troy_s> you pulled it, so you know that bzr already knows abou tit
<troy_s> so first thing
<troy_s> do you have an ssh public key registered at launchpad?
<z_diver> probably not
<troy_s> that is the only thing you will require to publish to launchpad's bazaar
<troy_s> ok... go to your launchpad page
<troy_s> to generate a key, we'll use ssh keygen
<troy_s> erm
<troy_s> ssh-keygen
<z_diver> MY launchpad page?
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> what is your launchpad logon?
<troy_s> let me look
<z_diver> chuck@lagunadata.com
<troy_s> what is your launchpad id?
<troy_s> as in launchpad.net/~?
<troy_s> mine for example, is launchpad.net/~troy-sobotka
<troy_s> ah got you
<troy_s> https://launchpad.net/~chuck-lagunadata
<troy_s> okie?
<troy_s> so your id right now is set to
<troy_s> chuck-lagunadata
<troy_s> okie?
<troy_s> go there, on the left pane you will see your ssh and gpg keys
<troy_s> for now, select ssh
<troy_s> and we will input a key
<troy_s> the public half
<troy_s> got it?
<z_diver> yes
<troy_s> z_diver: you there yet?
<z_diver> yep
<z_diver> I've made keys, getting the public
<troy_s> wow...
<troy_s> ok
<troy_s> so just put your public ssh key (id_rsa.pub or whatever from .ssh)
<troy_s> when you have your published ssh key, let me know
<troy_s> now when you make a change, you need to issue a commit.  this won't do bugger all until you push the changes.
<troy_s> bzr commit -m "Your full explanation of the commit."
<troy_s> If you omit the -m, bzr will automatically launch an editor and let you put in a larger comment.
<troy_s> with?
<z_diver> troy_s, alright the keys are up there.  Do I need to undo the bzr add <myfile> that I did or will that not cause any harm
<troy_s> depends
<troy_s> your bzr add is relative to the directory
<troy_s> so if you simply re-added the same file
<troy_s> it shouldn't be an issue
<z_diver> correct
<troy_s> there is a bzr list command somewhere
<troy_s> to see the file listing
<z_diver> tha'ts what I did
<troy_s> ok should be ok
<troy_s> try the push now
<z_diver> brz pulls up a few
<z_diver> k
<troy_s> after a bzr init (already done)
<troy_s> you do your commit
<troy_s> with comment
<troy_s> bzr commit -m 'Blah'
<troy_s> bzr push sftp://<yourID>@bazaar.launchpad.net/~<yourID/yourTeam>/<product>/<branchname>
<troy_s> and that's it.
<z_diver> from within the directory
<troy_s> pretty simple
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> bzr commit from the directory
<troy_s> then push
<troy_s> from the root of the directory
<troy_s> in this case the <yourID/yourTeam> will match the same one you pulled from
<troy_s> basically the same address
<troy_s> if you made some radical changes, you could append -chuck to the branchname for later merging
<troy_s> and thanks to daniel's automated procedure that him and frank banged out
<troy_s> every half hour the packages will get built and shipped.
<z_diver> wow how cool!
<troy_s> tell me if you are met with success?
<z_diver> bzr commit gave me an error
<troy_s> what was the error?
<troy_s> probably about that double add?
<z_diver> cannot lock
<troy_s> try the bzr init
<z_diver> bzr init
<troy_s> yes
<z_diver> woops
<troy_s> ;)
<z_diver> wrong window
<troy_s> it werk?
<z_diver> new error Error alread a branch
<z_diver> hmm
<troy_s> hmm... maybe we can't push direct
<troy_s> try putting -chuck on it
<troy_s> and then we can notify daniel
<z_diver> ok
<troy_s> it is possible that the mains are locked.
<troy_s> but i am not certain
<troy_s> (it might be that daniel needs to permit ax to the mains)
<z_diver> ok, so do i add gtkrc-chuck or something?
<troy_s> there might be a merge tool
<troy_s> no
<troy_s> just establish your own branch with the changes.
<troy_s> but let me look into it,
<troy_s> manning bzr
<troy_s> for now, let's push to .chuck or -z_diver or something
<troy_s> and we will get a resolution tomorrow from daniel on how to push direct
<troy_s> once you push, let me know and I'll see if i can see the revisiosn
<z_diver> so how should I do that
<troy_s> offer your commit via pushing
<troy_s> but push to
<troy_s> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/z_diver
<troy_s> perhaps
<troy_s> try that
<z_diver> troy_s, would it be bzr push <local_directory> <remote>
<troy_s> no it is the fully qualified package name
<troy_s> erm crap
<troy_s> obviously with your id on the head instead of the brainded http paste i did
<troy_s> bzr push sftp://<yourID>@bazaar.launchpad.net/~<yourID/yourTeam>/<product>/<branchname>
<troy_s> that's the full syntax
<troy_s> so as a guess
<troy_s> you tried
<troy_s> bzr push sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu correct?
<z_diver> lets see
<troy_s> is that what you tried when you got the 'oops already branch' error?
<troy_s> ???
<z_diver> no.  This looks to be working
<troy_s> in the syntax i just gave?
<z_diver> darn.  mailto:sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu
<troy_s> mailto?
<z_diver> wait that's wrong
<troy_s> wtf?
<z_diver> no that's how xchat copied your link
<z_diver> I didn't use it that way.
<z_diver> hang on
<z_diver> bzr: ERROR: Parent directory of sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu does not exist.
<troy_s> bzr push sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu
<troy_s> erm
<z_diver> that's the correct errror
<troy_s> how strange is that.
<troy_s> it shouldn't realistically be giving that error...
<troy_s> try the /z_diver instead of ubuntu
<z_diver> k
<troy_s> we need to figure out the official pushes issue.
<z_diver> interesting
<z_diver> permission denied.  I think the lagunadata was correct then, no?
<troy_s> bzr push sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/z_diver
<troy_s> your id wouldn't change
<z_diver> trying that
<z_diver> z_diver directory doesn't exist, hmmm
<troy_s> and the original ubuntu one didn't work?
<troy_s> from within the local ~/ubuntu
<z_diver> i'll try again
<troy_s> dir on your computer?
<troy_s> yes... i'll try one.
<troy_s> at this end...
<troy_s> i know we are damn close as per the instructions
<troy_s> andreasn --
<troy_s> ping
<troy_s> andreasn -- when you guys push to Tangerine, what is the format syntax for the bzr push command?
<z_diver> bzr: ERROR: Parent directory of sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu does not exist.
<z_diver> that is from within ubuntu with the correct id offering the following command.
<z_diver> chuckh@ubuntu:~/ubuntu$ bzr push sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu
<troy_s> ok... lets try adding a branch off of it...
<troy_s> for your revision
<troy_s> i believe it is bzr help branch
<z_diver> alright. lookin now
<troy_s> damn close... in his example he basically created a branch
<troy_s> but i don't know if we create a branch from the legacyhuman-theme or the full legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu-mybranch
<z_diver> you have an example handy
<z_diver> I was going to try the second approach
<troy_s> i will try one.
<troy_s> hold on...
<troy_s> fetching legacy
<z_diver> so I have downloaded a branch that I called ubuntu-chuckh
<troy_s> via branch?
<z_diver> yes
<z_diver> now I've added my gtkrc to that branch.
<z_diver> verified it's correct
<z_diver> now can I push that up or is that way too much...
<z_diver> since I only changed the single file?
<troy_s> it might be the only way since the offical branch appears locked to me.
<z_diver> k, I'll try
<troy_s> it might be working
<troy_s> woop
<troy_s> i think it worked
<troy_s> the push is still to the same directory
<z_diver> same error that the ubuntu-chuckh branch doesn't exist.
<z_diver> oh
<z_diver> bzr push sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu-chuckh
<z_diver> so that should have been to ubuntu at the end?
<troy_s> that is what i did
<troy_s> i did this:
<troy_s> bzr branch <blahblahblah> ./troy_s
<troy_s> then cd into troy_s
<troy_s> adjusted the NEWS file
<troy_s> bzr commit -m 'Changed NEWS as a test."
<z_diver> i can tell I did something wrong.  I didn't commit in there.
<troy_s> then bzr push sftp://troy-sobotka@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu
<troy_s> and it appears to do something
<troy_s> did it succeed or die?
<troy_s> because i succeeded but it isn't showing anywhere that i can see.
<z_diver> mine errored out with the parent directory doesn't exist error
<z_diver> but let me commit
<troy_s> try doing the commit using the same syntax i did.
<troy_s> fer feck sake
<z_diver> what do you mean.  Single quote in front and double behind???
<z_diver> anyway, commit seemed to work.  Just can't get it to push.  still telling me that  ERROR: Parent directory of sftp://chuck-lagunadata@bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/legacyhuman-theme/ubuntu-chuckh does not exist.
<troy_s> I borked that
<troy_s> yes the commit is local
<troy_s> yes i get that too.
<troy_s> so clearly we have an issue with something we are borking.
<z_diver> I've tried with simply ubuntu at the end instead of my branch thinking that that might help.  To no avail.
<troy_s> Yes.
<troy_s> We are close.  I have posted a message to Daniel, which will be resolved tomorrow.
<troy_s> Hopefully we will be able to start the patch fest shortly.
<z_diver> ;)
<troy_s> And kill off a large number of the nonsensical 'bugs'
<troy_s> As they are easy to fix, we just need the write permission or proper syntax.
<z_diver> It will brighten the mood, i think
<troy_s> I know for my own branches, this isn't an issue.
<troy_s> Well... the mood is irrelevant.  The main thing is to keep attempting to illustrate that we are on the same side sab is on.
<troy_s> It will take time, as I originally was very clear in stating.
<troy_s> I was looking through the bugs though, and noted that a large number, like your gtkrc example, actually had fixes -- just no legwork to push them through.
<z_diver> by the mood I meant that the art team.  It would be nice to have more participation again
<troy_s> for example, orro had the open folder svg on his site... so i pushed that up to the thread.
<troy_s> yes.
<troy_s> as i said, sabdfl simply won't consider design issues until the team is firing on full cylinders.
<troy_s> of course, everyone seems to forget that prior to edgy we had a grand total of 17 members on launchpad.
<troy_s> ;)
<z_diver> how many are there now?
<z_diver> how many are there now?
<troy_s> uh
<troy_s> 202
<troy_s> launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art
<z_diver> that was a good drive then....
<troy_s> not to mention all of the stuff that daniel set up with frank over edgy etc.
<troy_s> (like automated artwork for all of the packages, etc.)
<troy_s> it was a very frustrating conclusion.
<z_diver> true.  That was a ton of work
<troy_s> because i tried to make it clear at the beginning
<troy_s> to sab et al
<troy_s> that the goal for edgy will _not_ be the destination attained
<troy_s> it is the foundation work that is the hard part
<troy_s> and establishing communication with the devs etc
<troy_s> hell, prior to edgy, we were not even on the bug listing.
<z_diver> how did you feel we did on that end?
<troy_s> i was fine
<troy_s> it is a matter of one part aesthetics, one part design, one part audience
<z_diver> I know we may have gotten off track a time or two but as far as getting a foundation setup, I though we did great.
<troy_s> the reality is that we currently have no target audience per - se.  the target audience is one person, which is an unfortunate reality.
<troy_s> yeah it was fine
<troy_s> the main flaw was sab not stepping in and steering at the various checkpoints, but i don't know if it was clear in the end after he posted his thoughts.  frank's article on linux.com was pretty spot on.
<troy_s> when he was interviewed.
<troy_s> again though, you can't expect total magic in 4 months
<troy_s> considering the time, the place we began, etc, it was all quite above the expectation level -- but unfortunately everyone looked at the final.  which was silly.
<z_diver> When he jumps in from time to time we get an idea of his thinking and I know I was usually somewhat surprised at sabs insight.
<troy_s> well yes...
<troy_s> at one point i couldn't believe it
<troy_s> but i was actually arguing about colour theory with him on the phone
<troy_s> knowing full well that
<troy_s> i was arguing with someone with zero art / design background
<troy_s> which was ... strange.
<troy_s> alas, again, it will take time.
<troy_s> and perhaps he will need to see the light himself before things will see change.
<troy_s> we have a good number of very talented people in the crowd
<troy_s> as is clear from some of the output of the very few who bothered.
<z_diver> I'm glad to see you're still at it.  You produced a lot of neat stuff that didn't get used at all.
<troy_s> i think the fundamental problem is that we are _not_ following a traditional design approach -- no audience.
<troy_s> hence you get 'buttons are too thin' 'colors are ugly' etc.
<troy_s> nothing to check the designs against
<troy_s> blah
<troy_s> it matters not
<troy_s> my only
<troy_s> and i mean _only_ regret
<troy_s> is that i actually bothered to try and guess into the sabdfl aesthetic
<troy_s> had it been my knowledge from the onset, i probably would have just rambled down the road i thought was more appropriate
<z_diver> right, that's tough to even attempt
<troy_s> well... especially to a vacant owner. ;)
<z_diver> no, i remember that and felt it might even be recognized by sab.
<troy_s> again too, despite the outcome, there were about 300 emails in my box wondering why
<troy_s> i think we were at about 75% approval despite the unfortunate outcome
<troy_s> which, considering the circumstance, is completely acceptable.
<troy_s> especially for a first pass in 3 months effectively.
<z_diver> had the outcome been more appropriate I think we as a group wouldl be flying still.
<troy_s> i firmly believe and have faith in ubuntu, so i force myself to keep at it.  not suffer from the immature 'sour grapes' approach and pull the bail.
<troy_s> well... i was letting it stew a bit.
<troy_s> working on u2 and such.
<troy_s> now i figure the time is right to really go back to the wheel and get the die hards to learn bzr
<troy_s> and start building a community that liases with the devs -- even if on a very medial scale.
<z_diver> oh, yeah, thanks for takign the time with me.
<troy_s> the core devs are the most important group to touch.
<troy_s> well bzr is amazingly powerful.
<troy_s> and relatively easy
<troy_s> but we need to spread our knoweldge
<troy_s> get a wiki page up
<troy_s> and promote the bug quashing once we figure it out
<z_diver> a wiki would be a good idea.
<troy_s> the docs could be setup on the launchpad howto with a bzr howto
<troy_s> specifically geared towards the art team
<troy_s> how to checkout
<troy_s> how to update
<troy_s> how to push
<z_diver> right, copy and paste just like you did with me.
<troy_s> it will make daniel's immense workload a little lighter if we can at least push it to the merge point
<troy_s> yep
<troy_s> it is really only two commands to pull the sources
<troy_s> do the work then push it.
<troy_s> not very hard.
<troy_s> and seeing as how our first 'success' will be with your gtkrc
<z_diver> ;)
<troy_s> it should be good to build out from that.
<troy_s> its why i contacted you because you actually have work that can fix a bug
<troy_s> and that is a good start.
<troy_s> once we get our sea legs, you and i can bang out a wiki page for the art team
<troy_s> and post to the list
<z_diver> sure, I'm game for hatt
<troy_s> 202 folks, at even 10% is still 20 folks banging out bug fixes.
<troy_s> and _that_ will begin phase two of getting the devs interaction up
<troy_s> with relatively little pain
<troy_s> in fact, i dare say that the bulk of those bugs already have fixes either A) in the bug threads, or B) in third party sites like orro's svg
<troy_s> daniel, for one reason or another, has bumped me onto the desktop bug team, so i can at least order the list a bit.
<z_diver> Daniel is amazing.  He has to be ontop of so much stuff and still do all our bugz too.  I think this is a good idea and can help him which in turn turn will get the dev to take note.
<troy_s> Yes.
<troy_s> He really has been holding us in the game
<z_diver> I have a few fixes that I'll have to dig up, and post.  Some of them are to my own projects but still like to add them.
<troy_s> So I think we at least owe it to him to try and take up some of the workload.
<troy_s> God knows we are all very busy, but ...
<troy_s> I do what I can considering my slim time.
<troy_s> Indeed...
<troy_s> You by the way, would probably have full writes to your theme
<troy_s> IIRC
<z_diver> if we think like that the danger is Daniel will and then it's over.
<troy_s> I might be mistaken, but you can try
<z_diver> no comment above was about the slim time.
<troy_s> Exactly.
<troy_s> Anyways, great to still see you around...
<troy_s> let's see if we can get the boat back on course.
<troy_s> baby steps...
<z_diver> you too.  Hang in there... I'll be around and look for you here from time to time
<z_diver> Let me know what you hear from the devs, please.
<z_diver> cu
<lapo> hi
<lizardking> Hello artworker!
<lizardking> Someone Have any news from sabdfl 's artwork development?
<troy_s> greetings TuxCrafter
<troy_s> dborg
<troy_s> Any guess on pixmap support in Lua?
<dborg> guess?
<troy_s> Yes.
<dborg> when it's done?
<troy_s> As in extending the drawing functions of Cairo(?) ?
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> Or at least workable ;)
<troy_s> I would prefer a 'clean' engine implementation as opposed to me having to kludge with the Pixbuf engine and the TETEAE Lua
<troy_s> I can't imagine it would be fun getting Pixbuf cooperating nicely.
<dborg> I'm not planning to do this yet, it's just a planned possible extension. but it shouldn't be too difficult to add it
<troy_s> Erk!
<troy_s> Here is a question
<troy_s> If I state Lua as the basic widget engine
<troy_s> and apply it as a blanket
<troy_s> Do you have an idea how many widgets will trap the bg_image property?
<troy_s> Compared to say, Mist or the Default?
<dborg> I think pretty much all standard widgets (aside from entries, which draw a white background...). it will mostly be custom widgets causing problems
<troy_s> You would think
<dborg> there is no difference, it has nothing to do with the engine
<troy_s> but the Default actually traps LESS than Mist.
<troy_s> I thought that...
<dborg> huh?
<troy_s> But I believe that the engine can influence it...
<troy_s> I must run for now
<dborg> I don't see how
<troy_s> but as an experiment
<troy_s> try applying
<troy_s> bg_image
<troy_s> without specifying a default engine {} clause
<troy_s> compare the widget output
<troy_s> in firefox
<troy_s> or some app
<troy_s> then apply engine "mist" {}
<troy_s> you will see what i mean
<troy_s> I believe it has to do with the switch case structure
<troy_s> but I might be mistaken
<dborg> oh that bg_image you mean. I never used that
<troy_s> yes i know
<troy_s> but it is apparently up to the engine to trap it appropriately
<troy_s> which means in an ideal world
<troy_s> lua would ;)
<troy_s> would you mind if i do a test and send you feedback on its implementation?
<troy_s> dborg
<troy_s> so with engine "lua" {}
<troy_s> it looks like it falls back to "Default"
<troy_s> but, with "mist" the top of firefox is bg_imaged
<dborg> yes, mostly
<troy_s> with Default it isn't
<troy_s> (as with lua now)
<dborg> yikes, don't tell me about firefox ;)
<troy_s> in an ideal world, we figure out how mist traps it
<troy_s> mist traps it properly
<troy_s> in their switch case
<troy_s> as in, it DOES properly apply the bg_image
<troy_s> so i suspect that lua might need to add in the same clause
<troy_s> in order to get proper functionality
<dborg> wouldn't it be better to draw the background just once and then make the widgets transparent as possible?
<troy_s> i have looked at mist's code, but not defaults
<troy_s> Or that :)
<troy_s> Whatever works
<troy_s> The bottom line is that obviously firefox uses some different *widget* that mist captures properly
<troy_s> and the default doesn't
<troy_s> (as odd as that seems)
<dborg> that's how I have done it before and it will be possible with the lua engine as well. it just fails with widgets who aren't properly transparent (many custom widgets)
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> so is it possible to override that behaviour to force bg_image to behave appropriately in all circum?
<dborg> I don't know
<troy_s> i would buy you a beer if you could make it behave like that
<troy_s> or at the very least, like mist handles it... (considering the prevalence of FF etc, it is rather mandatory for me)
<dborg> what kind of background would you use it for?
<troy_s> it is somewhere along the lines of the brushed gunmetal of osx, but not cheesy metals.
<troy_s> its for a far more organic project...
<troy_s> it appears to be the menu bar
<troy_s> and the toolbar
<troy_s> as Thunderbird suffers from the same breaking of bg_image
<dborg> but isn't it better to do this kind of thing with one background gradient instead of scaled images?
<troy_s> (not to mention List Views too... the headers are not applied)
<troy_s> no, grads can't add the irregularity
<dborg> well they can if you use cairo ;)
<troy_s> ?
<troy_s> how so?
<troy_s> and if so, enlighten me.
<troy_s> i basically need a fundamental texture applied to all widgetry
<troy_s> consistently
<dborg> I mean you can draw the image pattern and then overlay a transparent gradient. I'm quite sure that's how OSX does it. could be very slow though
<troy_s> right now the implementation is very fast
<troy_s> using just the bg_image
<troy_s> the problems are as discussed however
<troy_s> if mist were perfect, I would use it, but again, it breaks the rules and performs solid fills on things like scrollbar troughs
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> the default does this properly, but does NOT manage to trap the menubar, toolbar, etc of ff
<troy_s> (where mist does)
<troy_s> and frankly, i don't care about speed.
<troy_s> if it works on a relatively modern computer, it works for me.
<dborg> sure
<troy_s> the main thing is just getting a bloody engine to do the 'right' thing
<troy_s> and that means having the gtkrc apply the bg_image to _EVERY_ widget, no matter what app
<troy_s> as in mixing the functionality of default engine with mist
<troy_s> and we are there.
<troy_s> which is a simple switch/case statement with the proper constants to the best of my knowledge.
<TuxCrafter> Hello everyone (need a brake for 15 min)
<dborg> well I'm still not convinced that bg_image is all that useful compared to a simple background draw, but it shouldn't be too difficult to slap it behind each drawing function
<TuxCrafter> I see the problem in xubuntu and probably also ubuntu that users like to see things change like graphical stuff but developers do not support it
<troy_s> dborg -- i agree... but i think to be a proper engine that that
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: nature of the beast.  users aren't devs however.
<TuxCrafter> I want to have a voting system for all the dynamical graphical stuff
<dborg> yikes
<dborg> voting systems are evil :)
<troy_s> dborg that the base engine should handle the gtkrc defines properly
<dborg> you can't design by committee
<troy_s> no
<troy_s> you need a solid team
<troy_s> dborg -- anyways, if you could pull that off, or at least provide a way to draw to _all_ widgets
<troy_s> i would appreciate the knowledge.
<TuxCrafter> but they can help make things transparent and let users feel apart of the distribution
<troy_s> (as in a catch all like bg_image)
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: matters not
<troy_s> 'users' is a big term
<troy_s> with no clearly defined audience, design fails.
<troy_s> period.
<dborg> troy_s: well I'd say it's still up to the engine which options it supports ;) it could have its own background image handling just as well
<troy_s> you learn that in art and design skool .000001
<troy_s> dborg -- sure.  i guess then i have to turn it into a request :(
<troy_s> images are critical ... especially with the newer wave coming down.
<dborg> "newer wave"?
<troy_s> you simply cannot provide the same appearance using simple splines (you could do it somewhat with svg)
<troy_s> the looks right now are locked into simple line functionality
<TuxCrafter> I was thinking of a system were people can post a design on a website and with a howto /script how it can be implemented and tested
<troy_s> and grads
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: go for it.
<TuxCrafter> in the ubuntu wiki system
<TuxCrafter> I was hoping if someone already had made this somewere
<troy_s> dborg: at any rate, how much effort to implement it in lua?
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: it is called launchpad
<TuxCrafter> launchpad is more for bus and request right?
<dborg> troy_s: well I'm sure I'll support pixmap textures at some point, what I am not sure about it is the usefulness of bg_image as opposed to rendering a texture once on the window background
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: it works.  but polls will fail.  there are two components -- the client (the fellow who calls the ultimate shots) and the audience
<troy_s> neither cares about polls.
<troy_s> dborg:  i don't mind how it is implemented... (although i would prefer that bg_image did the trick regardless as to how to achieve it)
<troy_s> dborg and i would very much prefer to use lua
<troy_s> to show what it can do.
<TuxCrafter> but how do you measure then if people like it or niot
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: called focus groups
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: and they don't work exactly well either
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: design is a very tricky realm -- it takes people who are educated in the design world (know what trends are moving across _all_ design, etc) with the proper team for execution.
<TuxCrafter> I am going to do a coarse in people management
<TuxCrafter> and read some more stuff about opensource management
<TuxCrafter> sometimes the system is so ineffective that you can just not begin to grasp it :-D
<TuxCrafter> and i believe ubuntu has the best community system
<dborg> a little too good maybe :)
<TuxCrafter> how does the artwork go in the ubuntu process
<TuxCrafter> who decide how things looks
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: the answer is simple
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: one person is both the audience and client
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: sabdfl
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: there is no process, just whim
<TuxCrafter> whim?
<dborg___> holy crap
<troy_s> dborg___ what?>
<TuxCrafter> Mark Shuttleworth
<troy_s> dborg -- i would buy you a case of your fave liq if you could get textures working
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> lua very clearly is the future -- teteae -- but we need to show people how this is ture.
<troy_s> true even
<TuxCrafter> so no freedom for ubuntu and chaos for xubuntu :-D
<dborg___> I'll finish it first :P
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: no... the nature of design in free software still has a lot of 'maturing' to happen
<troy_s> dborg: you _rock_
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: and, ultimately, the design issues with all of the given distributions have no one to blame but themselves
<troy_s> heavy on the politicking, and not enough on traditional design theory
<TuxCrafter> indeed if we look at theory of graphical issues and treds xubuntu needs a lot of work
<troy_s> well you have one upside -- mr. mak.
<troy_s> but it ultimately depends on his vision _and_ his ability to implement his change.
<TuxCrafter> but the not all dev's have that insight
<troy_s> again, what seems to happen is that the changes are 'half assed'
<troy_s> because of the political structure
<TuxCrafter> so what do you advice if we want to add some extra options of graphical work in xubuntu
<troy_s> if the top of the heap has the ability to call the final shot and give the power to someone they trust, the output _could_ be very good.
<troy_s> jani is a damn good guy
<TuxCrafter> he is
<troy_s> and xub has some pretty good people working on the art/design front
<TuxCrafter> jub jmak etcetra
<troy_s> but i think again, it would take someone to really lay down a target audience
<troy_s> before you can attempt to speak to them
<troy_s> without a target audience
<troy_s> you are effectively 'pretending' to appeal to all
<troy_s> which is pure garbage
<troy_s> no such creature
<troy_s> it is like standing up at the united nations and saying 'i love you all'
<TuxCrafter> indeed thats why I want to let te user be able to choice
<troy_s> whilst being ignorant that the language being spoken is english for example.
<troy_s> well users can't choose either
<troy_s> you must _Clearly_ define your audience
<TuxCrafter> with a easy way of editing configurations
<troy_s> otherwise you get what we currently have in ubuntu -- 10000001 different 'opinions' in bug reports
<troy_s> which is also rubbish
<TuxCrafter> yes that sucks
<troy_s> you need to say 'design feature a does not meet the requirements of target audience foobar'
<troy_s> and on another side of the spectrum you have the 'middle grey' approach
<troy_s> which is to just barely be adequate
<troy_s> and keep the complaints down
<troy_s> which again, is NOT effective design either.
<troy_s> art and design is, ultimately, a form of communication
<troy_s> stand out art and design
<troy_s> communicates a clear message
<troy_s> _and_ does so in an aesthetically cohesive manner.
<troy_s> if you don't believe that, feel free to pick up just about any reference book on art / design.
<TuxCrafter> I think I will specialize myself in these policies to become able to create a effective communication system between different type of users
<troy_s> to quote but _one_ source:
<troy_s> "Concept is king"
<troy_s> "Audience is the force that governs all"
<troy_s> although just about every reference will have that stated in some manner.
<TuxCrafter> you forgot over
<TuxCrafter> I believe it is the power to become able to attract different kind of user to one distributions bye creating easy method of changing complete different type of graphical looks
<TuxCrafter> but my all my resent experiences learn me this will not become a easy task
<troy_s> TuxCrafter: in theory any distribution affords this.  the reality is that _most_ users probably don't want to put in the hours to develop a look.
<TuxCrafter> troy_s: Yes i agree but when a user is putting time and what to help. He should not be so easily dismissed and say that is idea's are useless. I have seen that happen several times. There should be a clear and democratic system that a user can easily go through with his idea's
<troy_s> _anyone_ can bikeshed
<troy_s> democracy does not assure solid design
<troy_s> nor does dictatorships
<TuxCrafter> true
<troy_s> ultimately, there are no easy answers.
<TuxCrafter> thats also why devs and users are separated
<troy_s> the best design generally is the byproduct of A) a solid team atmosphere, B) educated participants, C) solid design plan.
<troy_s> need look no further than the lauded Apple design team
<TuxCrafter> indeed not a easy subject
<TuxCrafter> troy_s I have to go further with my work now, and thanks for your insides have something to think about :-D
<TheSheep> I wonder if a sketch of overall design, with all the changes shown, would be more encouraging that just mockups of single features...
<coz_> to mods at  art.ubuntu.com i am still seeing my name there PLEASE remove all references from the servers i go under coz and cosimo thank you
<troy_s> i wish he woudl quite popping in here as though we are mods.
<troy_s> TheSheep -- yes.
<troy_s> TheSheep -- if you mean to an 'outside' person
<troy_s> hopefully when you are on the 'inside' you have the ability to visualize the issue.
<troy_s> otherwise you probably shouldn't be on the team.
<troy_s> bersace: greets my brother.
<bersace> troy_s: hi bro
<bersace> how are you !
<bersace> ?
<troy_s> good thanks.  you?
<bersace> quite good
<bersace> i saw you did a lot of work in lp
<troy_s> yeah trying to amp it up a bit.
<TuxCrafter> does somebody now how to install the murrine engine
<TuxCrafter> never mind
<TuxCrafter> found the tread
<PingunZ> !seen fschoep
<troy_s> pingunz
<troy_s> no seen
<PingunZ> hey troy_s
<troy_s> greets.
<PingunZ> how are you m8 ?
<troy_s> fine thank you pingunz.
<msikma> Hey everyone
<troy_s> greets msikma
<TuxCrafter> hello I have a noob question
<TuxCrafter> I have installed murrina and the MurrinaGiloucheDuo Theme
<TuxCrafter> and I want to customisch it
<TuxCrafter> where do I start :-D
<TuxCrafter> with config files must I edit?
<TuxCrafter> gtkrc
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-13
<coz_> after noon to all artists here
<coz_> "artists"
<coz_> :)
<coz_> does anyoneknow the moderators for art.ubuntu.com?
<kwwii> coz: nope
<coz_> kwwii, well that is a good answer :)
<coz_> thanks
<kwwii> coz: I have heard your complaint before, if I find one I'll tell them
<kwwii> you have every right to that reqeust
<kwwii> request
<coz_> kwwii, well i appreciate that but it is most approprately my responsibility but thanks
<kwwii> it is a simple matter of finding the right person at the right time
<kwwii> have you tried sending an email to anyone?
<coz_> kwwii, I know you wold think they would spend as much time here s they do censoring things
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> yeah
<kwwii> I think that there is still quite a bit of confusion in the art community at this time
<coz_> kwwii, no I think the slowness of their vission overlaps into reding emal as well
<coz_> kwwii, well sure there is, shttleworth is still thinking unclearly
<kwwii> yeah, it appears so
<kwwii> perhaps things will change soon
<coz_> kwwii, most definatley especiall with theimplimentation of sensroship by prgrammers for art what is that ?
<coz_> censorship
<coz_> kwwii, the only option shuttlewroth has is to make the ucuntu art team an offical team without question including the members and also that ONLY ubuntu art eam members will be responsible for monitoring the galleries on the forum
<coz_> but that is unlike ly to happen
<kwwii> well, I would disagree that art is the same as development but then again, I am a proffesional artist :-)
<coz_> kwwii, well of course it is different .. artist have a more complex mind than a programmer
<kwwii> actually, the whole process of working is different
<coz_> kwwii, youcan tech an artist to prgramm very well in about a year but several lfetimes to teach a programmer art
<kwwii> and without a rigid structure I do not think that we can achieve our goals
<kwwii> exactly, artist is something someone is born with
<coz_> kwwii, with shuttleworth making final art decisions the art team is essetntiall a placibo
<kwwii> oh, I think he will take a step back from that approach
<coz_> kwwii, dowbtful well ia mdoubtful
<coz_> anyway
<kwwii> as he does not even have the time to deal with this stuff as much as he has in the past
<kwwii> yeah
<kwwii> who knows in the end
<coz_> kwwii,  then ony one solution make the team official
<kwwii> we will have to wait and see what happens
<coz_> well I am not hopeful
<kwwii> I am sure that one way or another things will move forward
<coz_> talking to the moderators all thiat Idid I ws not able to make them see their mistakes it ws like talking to an tech peson on the phone from verizon or cmcast. they have set list of do's and dont's they conformto not to resove anything just to clam the situation
<coz_> calm
<kwwii> often in the case of artwork it is hard to judge someones experience level wthout working with them for a longer time
<coz_> kwwii, well as a aprofessianl artist you can tell by theri work no?
<kwwii> if you see a portfolio, yeah
<kwwii> but who does that in linux?
<kwwii> often it is one or two things
<kwwii> and everyone thinks that they can do artwork
<kwwii> and everyone and their brother has an opinion on it
<coz_> kwwii, yes I know in my case however  Ihave hd over a hundred peices at times on the forums
<coz_> long enough for anyone to understand what I ws doing
<kwwii> to be honest, I hate forums to begin with :p
<kwwii> it is too disperse
<kwwii> I do not have time to go through forums
<coz_> kwwii, I saw this as an opportunity to teach
<coz_> few of the works I see on the forums are done by an individiual posting them
<kwwii> I think that due to the confusion we all simply have to have patience and see how things work out
<coz_> kwwii, well I suppose if I were hoping to get my conincal email address as so many of these kids seem to be working towards i suppose I would agree with you, but I posted my work to hlep and to contribute not t show ofof
<coz_> not to show off
<coz_> well i will try back later to see if anyone is a moderator for that art.ubuntu.com
<kwwii> well, you have to understand that things have been very confusing in the last year or so
<coz_>  thanks for talking kwwii  :)
<kwwii> I am not saying that is is right taht way
<kwwii> yeah, see you
<kwwii> do not give up hope
<kwwii> ;-)
<coz_> kwwii, well I am not real up to date on the politics of the the forums ro concincal or ubuntu for that mater
<kwwii> niether am I :p
<coz_> and I think involving programmers in art is always a road to failure
<coz_> couples with a conservative unintelligent view of appropirateness is even more diastrous
<coz_> no kwwii I believe and would fight for the idea that ONLY the art team and its members would be the ONLY people to approve and finalize anything from icons to wallpare for ubuntu
<coz_> no programmer  finalizations at all
<coz_> that is the appropriate and intelligent role for us
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> well, if you ask me that would have led to bad artwork last time
<kwwii> but then again, I do kubuntu art anyway
<kwwii> their was no real consensus
<coz_> kwwii,  it did led to bad artwork lst time when shttleworth deicded
<kwwii> and I admit that mark did not make things better
<coz_> kwwii,  I know he didin't
<kwwii> but I think he will stay away from things this time
<kwwii> I think he would rather give others that job, than loose more face
<coz_> kwwii,  not enough staying away only one option disband the art team or officialize it
<coz_> that s ctually 2 options :)
<kwwii> hrm, not so sure about that
<kwwii> until the art team proves themselves
<coz_> kwwii,  why is that?
<kwwii> I was also not so happy with the consitency of the artwork
<coz_> kwwii, well what I meatn was that it be officialized as are the develeopmet teams
<coz_> same level
<kwwii> and I can see why mark said what he did, although it could have been done better and in a more constructive way
<kwwii> allowing thing to move forward instead of backward
<kwwii> but then again, he is not an artist
<coz_> kwwii, again I am not aware of the averall picture s to what he did and did not do < i only see the outcome and the consequences so far
<kwwii> my guess is that he has little or no time to really get into this and learn something new
<kwwii> yeah, I agree that so far things are simply bad
<coz_> kwwii, he doesn't have enough life time to learn art
<coz_> anyway have to get back to contributing what support I can in the mean time so thanks again guy! :)
<kwwii> of course not
<kwwii> yeah, have fun
<coz_> talk again I hope
<kwwii> see you around
<BHSPitLappy> yawn
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-14
<coz_> hello all
<coz_> lae evening here aout 11:14 PM
<coz_> I will try this again , any moderator responsible for art.ununtu.com..Please remove my gallery and my name from your server. i go under coz and cosimo
<coz_> i am going online at this moment to se if it was already done so if ti has then nevermind :)
<coz_> i see it has not been removed , so again Please remove my gallery and my name from your server thanks
<BHSPitLappy> still going emo over ubuntu not being a nude exhibition, eh
<TuxCrafter> hello people
<TuxCrafter> I have a question: Why is the space above and beneath a separator in a menu different and not equal?
<TuxCrafter> no one?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-07
<somerville32> kwwii, hi
 * DanaG lruks.
<DanaG> er, lurks.
<KidProQuo> Just looking at the wiki, particularly http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyTheme I'm a wee bit confused
<KidProQuo> is Hardy the *last* of the previous LTS cycle or the *first* in  the new cycle
<Madpilot> it's a new LTS
<Madpilot> Dapper was the previous (and first) LTS release
<KidProQuo> on the wiki it is saying to apparently contradictory things..
<KidProQuo> "Hardy is the last in the line of the current LTS cycle and should therefor fit well with it's brethren."
<Madpilot> interesting. the writing on that page is a bit confused, isn't it?
<KidProQuo> it doesn't really help anyone understand what we actually want
<Madpilot> KidProQuo, that assumes the art team knows what it actually wants... :|
<KidProQuo> we all know that's not even remotely true
<KidProQuo> but we could at least make it *look* like we do
<Madpilot> feel free to attempt to force that page to be coherent
<BHSPitLappy> KidProQuo, the answer really depends on whether you mean ubuntu or kubuntu
<KidProQuo> yeah, kubuntu isn't LTS this time around is it?
<KidProQuo> due to the whole KDE 4 thing
<BHSPitLappy> mmhmm
<KidProQuo> anyway, my current project is attempting to work out a structure for generating potential themes in the future, not so much working on one for Hardy atm
<KidProQuo> loosely based off the fedora structure
<KidProQuo> Just looking at the roadmap, does anyone actually think we're going to have enough time to redo a completely new theme before the UI freeze on the 28th of Feb?
<BHSPitLappy> KidProQuo, it's not so much of a community effort
<KidProQuo> BHSPitLappy: do you mean *if* it's a community effort?
<BHSPitLappy> I say what I mean
<BHSPitLappy> a lot of this stuff takes place in-house
<BHSPitLappy> sadly
<KidProQuo> oh, gotcha
<KidProQuo> I got a bit confused when first read your comment
<KidProQuo> :-P
<troy_s> wholly
<troy_s> krist
<troy_s> not
<troy_s> sadly
<BHSPitLappy> troy_s is having a one-line-per-term moment right now, please excuse him
<BHSPitLappy> poor guy, he's not even stringing a coherent thought together :P
<troy_s> it
<troy_s> is
<troy_s> not
<troy_s> 'sadly'
<troy_s> although it is amazing the amount of misinformation that gets spread around.
<BHSPitLappy> I
<BHSPitLappy> am
<BHSPitLappy> gonna
<BHSPitLappy> bed :P
<troy_s> ditto
<KidProQuo> troy_s, you might be a good person to clarify a question I had earlier
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Yikes... go fast.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: But I doubt I can be of any real use in any capacity involving a brain.
<KidProQuo> re: the page at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/HardyTheme
<KidProQuo> it appears to be saying two contradictory things.
<troy_s> no real shocker there
<KidProQuo> that hardy should look similar to gutsy, feisty etc as it is the last in that LTS cycle
<KidProQuo> and that it is the first in the next LTS cycle, therefore it is the time to redefine the general look for the next few releases
<troy_s> wholly jeeesuz christ
<troy_s> can't people THUMBNAIL their crap?
<troy_s> Wow that page is an utter homage to complete wastes of time.
<KidProQuo> yeah
<troy_s> KidProQuo: My money is on nothing anywhere.
<KidProQuo> troy_s: ok, thanks anyway
<KidProQuo> :)
<troy_s> KidProQuo: I would be surprised if anything happened.  If Mahurin or Picasso drove over Shuttleworth in an automobile accident, I doubt things would change.
<KidProQuo> lol, fair enough
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Also, 68 pages of HTML wiki blather isn't much better.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: In fact, if I step back and analyze the thirty seven pounds of email rubbish spewed in the form of 'knowledge bestowed to the masses', the ninety eight metric tonnes of wiki chatter I have tried to follow, the
<KidProQuo> troy_s: I have been looking at the fedora processes for artwork and they seem sooo much clearer and more helpful than what we currently have
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Make no mistake, Fedora _was_ it.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Fedora 8 is no better than we are.  SUSE, Fedora, and Ubuntu are pure rubbish.
<troy_s> Fedora _had_ a talented individual leading the way, and now they are back to tepid, swirly, monochromatic-branding-genius-thinking, devoid of concept, and absolutely tripey rubbish.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Do you read the mailing list?
<KidProQuo> troy_s: yeah, i've been *enjoying* that privilege for the last few months
<troy_s> KidProQuo: It's great isn't it?
<KidProQuo> a few good ideas come along every so often
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Especially when someone decides to bestow such wonderful wisdom on the illiterate and uneducated serfs on the list.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Good ideas are a dime a dozen.
<KidProQuo> but they are quickly forgotten and we're back to "i found this mockup on the net"
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Worse, as you can probably see from evaluating the basics, the general audience of the list could do better simply by sitting down and quaffing back a dozen simple basic books on art and design.
<troy_s> yep
<troy_s> KidProQuo: I can only say it so much...
<troy_s> KidProQuo: But really, we aren't even at a level to discuss the basics.
<KidProQuo> troy_s: have you got any experience writing/modding gtk engines?
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Yes.  Its tedious.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: The engine writing is rather not that important as getting things to where they would need to be to write an engine.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: If you want to mod, use the pixmap engine and get things into ship shape.
<KidProQuo> I have a concept but i need to do more looking into the abilities of GTK to see if it's even possible
<troy_s> KidProQuo: It's pretty easy to evaluate that sort of thing.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Of course, Ubuntu with its pursuit of all things that someone somewhere thinks is a 'good thing' has painted itself into a design nightmare.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: For example, it is now impossible to deliver a 'design' for Ubuntu as you have GL acceleration enabled on some desktops and not in others.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Rather like trying to shoot a photo and accommodate say, sixteen different aspect ratios (can't be done).
<troy_s> KidProQuo: You can play 'lowest common denominator' when it comes to that -- but even then it is almost impossible to find a resolution that is suitable.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: And unfortunately, it comes down to destination.  That is a tricky beast.
<troy_s> anyways,
<KidProQuo> lol
<troy_s> off for sleep before i fall into a jaded rant of hate.
<KidProQuo> fair enough.
<KidProQuo> I should probably crash too.
<troy_s> night.
<KidProQuo> see ya
<lapo> hi
<kwwii> hi lapo
<Boris> hi
<KidProQuo> leave
<troy_s> http://www.uxmatters.com/MT/archives/000257.php
<troy_s> From the article, a final sign that the mythic 'usability absolutism' might be having its tide turned:
<troy_s> Emphasizing More Than Usability
<troy_s> The concept of engagement can remind us that we are creating user experiences, which involve much more than mere usability. For example, it is critical for a user to be able to find products on an ecommerce Web site. However, once the user finds the products, it is equally important that the Web site offer compelling information, imagery, and more to support product research and influence product purchases.
<kwwii> troy_s: nice article
<troy_s> kwwii: Relevant to our little circle that throws out 'usability' every 2nd sentence.
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, exactly
<kwwii> even usability people will say that usability is a quality and not measurable
<kwwii> well, good usability people will say that
<troy_s> kwwii: It's a little mired in, yet again, the 'WHO'.
<kwwii> totally
<troy_s> kwwii: Ask TheMuso what 'usability' means to him.  It is quite different than what some dork posts on the list stating 'first things must be usable'.
<troy_s> kwwii: It is frustrating and a completely egocentric myth.
<kwwii> it is a simple word to pull out of your pocket when you really do not exactly know what else to say
<kwwii> so now my nick no longer means kenneth wesley wimer II
<troy_s> it sure is.
<troy_s> ?
<kwwii> now it means ken wimer wii
<troy_s> LOL
<kwwii> got my kid a wii for christmas
<kwwii> I gotta admit that is one heck of a good time
<troy_s> great.  don't say that too loud or some 18 year old guy will grab you by your neck and start swinging you around.
<troy_s> it is amazing.
<troy_s> bowling!
<kwwii> it is really a totally different way of looking at gaming
<troy_s> Nintendo has also been quite amazing in terms of their presence and design from the dark ages.
<kwwii> glad I did not buy the ps3 now
<troy_s> kwwii: It cracks me up that the press says things like 'Format wars over' -- yeah they have been for about two years.  The format is called xVID and the content is online.
<kwwii> now if only xVID was free of patent controversy crap talk
<troy_s> indeed.  however, that patent issue is why theora can't implement the same breakdown alg.
<kwwii> from what they say they are going to rework the theora stuff from the ground up
<kwwii> maybe something will come from that
<troy_s> hard to say.  the better thing is to perhaps chase after the mpeg patent that encumbers mp4 and see if it can get cleared up.
<troy_s> the content is already rather ubiquitous.
<kwwii> true but I think you have a lot of companies to deal with in cleaing mpeg4 issues up
<troy_s> kwwii: One isn't it?  It is simply the patent issue on the low level alg.
<andreasn_> "got my kid a wii for christmas" yeah, keep telling yourself you got it for him :)
<troy_s> kwwii: The rest is rather irrelevant.  It seems that the quality is acceptable to the masses, the format is readily known and open, etc.
<andreasn_> ;)
<kwwii> andreasn_: I also bought my wife a mario game (which she kicked me off golf to play)
<andreasn_> the galaxy one?
<kwwii> troy_s: too bad you're not a lawyer :-)
<andreasn_> I'm totally getting that
<troy_s> kwwii: No thanks.  Wife is doing that.
<kwwii> andreasn_: no the simple golf in wii sports
<troy_s> Bowling!
<kwwii> bowling does rock
<troy_s> kwwii: That and watching 4 30somethings floundering with tennis from a couch is rather hilarious.
<troy_s> its like some strange throwback to a 1960s Twister commercial.
<kwwii> and I already broke my fist glass by driving the hell out of it with the controller playing golf
<kwwii> hehe, I boxed and ended up panting and sweating
<troy_s> (yikes... a fist glass sounds like something out of a shady video rental store)
<troy_s> ok.  out for keanu time... yay.
<kwwii> actually, I almost perfectly broke the top of a wine glass off the stem
<kwwii> so now it is a candle holder glass thingy
<kwwii> have fun
<troy_s> returning to work after a lovely xmas is... gross.
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> I know the feeling
<troy_s> yeah have fun reading the mail.
<troy_s> its a mire.
<kwwii> I know now that I am not going to comment on a lot of it
<troy_s> you know a full cycle has passed when people start promoting fecking colour psychology again.
<kwwii> we can just discuss it at the meeting
<kwwii> lol
<troy_s> what next?  subliminal accents?
<troy_s> woo!
<troy_s> maybe some gemstone healing that comes in your Ubuntu cd.
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> just a little brown stone which says "world peace now"
<kwwii> or a real piece of hardened elephant poop to explain the color scheme
<troy_s> nice.
<troy_s> we could even varnish it so that Shuttleworth thinks it is contemporary.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-08
<kwwii> w00t!!!! I got through all the emails
<kwwii> and now, time for sleep, bb in 8-10 hours
<KidProQuo> I just re-found this slideshow from a while ago :  http://www.slideshare.net/elliotjaystocks/fowd-november-2007
<KidProQuo> It's almost like they're talking about OSS theme designers at some points. :-P
<Tm_T> kwwii: YAY!
<lapo> hi
<KidProQuo> lapo: hello
<troy_s> KidProQuo: That was a refreshing link.  Thanks for sharing.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: If only the essence of what was said there was embraced by the masses.
<KidProQuo> It's a pity the dialog wasn't included.
<KidProQuo> apparently it had a lot more interesting points
<KidProQuo> dialogue^
<troy_s> KidProQuo:  I just purchased a brand new design book to add to my library
<troy_s> KidProQuo: and there is an interesting chapter summing up much of what i have learned over the course of a couple of decades
<KidProQuo> true, what book?
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Largely that design and art are about the furthest thing from 'isolated' as one can get.  In fact, they are quite amazing reflections of context - cultural, societal - trend, and other like things.
<troy_s> I would need to fish for the title.. hold on... it's a brilliant looking book though.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: "What is Graphic Design" Quentin Newark
<KidProQuo> I'll keep a look out for it
<troy_s> Here is the back cover:
<troy_s> Design does not take place in a vacuum.  This book starts by exploring all of the issues that shape design,
<troy_s> including economics, ethics, technology, theory, and developments in the other arts.
<troy_s> It looks at how design has evolved over the centuries - from its origins in medieval Germany to today, including areas such as corporate branding, magazines, television titles, and websites.
<KidProQuo> sounds interesting
<troy_s> It is quite a slick book with a lot of what I value in it -- contextual relationships to history, etc.
<KidProQuo> speaking of context, I was doing a bit of thinking about brown today...
<troy_s> KidProQuo: uh oh.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: The scary thing is that at no other point during my attempted defense of brown has brown been more viable than it is in today's market.
<KidProQuo> so much of the emotional response to brown is to do with the texture
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Consider Nike, Adidas, Quicksilver, Burton, Oakley, and a few other minor players such as them are embracing brown on a huge level.
<KidProQuo> not the actual colour itself
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Bah. The response to brown is just a stupid fucking poorly rendered version of it.
<KidProQuo> it is a colour which is very hard to get right on it's own
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Body Shop?  Yep... brand new brilliant campaign with a brown base.  Starbucks (one of my fave and repeatedly amazing design bastions) released a spring campaign with White base and brown, accented with blue.  Color alone isn't much however.  Those companies both have solid driving conception behind them.
<KidProQuo> so much depends on which colours you pair it with, and in what proportions you use them in
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Yes.  That _should_ be a no brainer.  Also, don't forget the fact that the hitch-pin is the driving concept.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: Take brown and wrap it up like vista and it doesn't work very well at all (as is clearly illustrated via Gutsy)
<troy_s> KidProQuo: But alone, brown is as useless as blue or green or red.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: It is all the same.  A palette is nothing more than a means to an end.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: If you are heading toward a Victorian elegance, your muted palette will help to get you there.
<troy_s> KidProQuo: A 'nearly smell the fruit' freshness?  The more vivid palette of grown produce won't hurt you.
<troy_s> etc
<troy_s> KidProQuo: All of that sort of talk _should_ be a no brainer.  Alas, it is apparently not.
<KidProQuo> yeah, _should_
<KidProQuo> I've decided to stop using a computer for any mockups / ideas for Hardy +1 for the next few months
<KidProQuo> back to the old paper and watercolours
<KidProQuo> my logic being, if a design can't hold up without being super polished in inkscape / gimp it probably needs to be rethought
<KidProQuo> anyway, it's 1:30 am here and I have work in the morning.
<KidProQuo> Goodnight
<Toma-> I hope inkscape and gimp merge one day
<andreasn> Toma-: oh?
<troy_s> Toma-: I wish one of them would get on the nodal design path.  Layers is just wayyyyy too limiting and clunky.
<Toma-> well, gimp doesnt really do SVG afaik
<Toma-> and inkscape has limited tools and kind of laggy
<troy_s> Toma-: Hrm... svn?
<troy_s> Toma-: It has pretty good response time, mind you - if you get into complicated bits with blurs it can take time.
<Toma-> yeh thats what i mean
<andreasn> I found it pretty neat that you can cut something from gimp now and paste into inkscape
<Toma-> :O
<andreasn> but merging them sounds a bit drastic (and technically quite hard :) ), as one is a illustration app and the other a photo editor
<troy_s> andreasn: Although technically, Inkscape isn't that far away from doing much of what Gimp can do and more... especially for photos at some point.
<andreasn> hm, probably
<troy_s> Now _that_ is some amazing design.
<troy_s> http://books.google.com/books?id=ZA2jzYuN93wC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=esterson+reportage&source=web&ots=K9hcC5o7hq&sig=GJqYXMqeWT1qNGyPbeDL4WqUi00
<troy_s> brilliant stuff.
<troy_s> http://www.reportage.org/PrintEdition2/KhmerRouge/PagesKhmerRouge/KhmerRouge02.html
<Toma-> http://members.iinet.net.au/~haste/anihug.gif
<Toma-> gimp animation is loads of fun :)
<Toma-> wish inkscape could do animation
<troy_s> loses something not being in a printed form in the magazine
<troy_s> Toma-: It's coming
<troy_s> Toma-: in the meantime, upgrade to a much closer to pro app -- Blender.
<Toma-> but im not a pro
<Toma-> and blenders UI scares the hell out of me
<troy_s> Toma-: Lol.  It is a very very very good tool.
<troy_s> Toma-: You will pick it up fast... just create your own layout.
<Toma-> i always thought it was more for 3d work?
<troy_s> Toma-: Not really.  It is good for animation, non linear editing, nodal compositing.
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> Toma-: It does just about everything.
<Toma-> can it make me a coffee?
<troy_s> Toma-: And in fact, it does them far better than Gimp etc.  It has support already in place for greater than 8bpc colour depths.
<troy_s> Toma-: It could probably make you an image of coffee yes... ;)
<Toma-> cool :)
<troy_s> Toma-: But seriously, try taking some images and compositing them in blender.
<troy_s> Toma-: The nodal compositor is quite incredible.  Close to Nuke's, minus about 50% of the functionality.
<Toma-> Ok ill give it a spin
<troy_s> (although actually far slicker than Nuke's nodal interface.)
<Toma-> I could make a pseudo 3d interface for e17 aswell :>
<thorwil> i'd like some critical eyes on http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/memaker_face_08.jpg
<thorwil> vector work for memaker
 * thorwil hands special invitation to troy_s ;)
<kwwii> hrm, who was the guy who knows so much about the usplash?
<_MMA_> tonic-pushcart
<kwwii> thanks man
<_MMA_> \m/
<_MMA_> I know he was on a long holiday. I think he's supposed to pop up in a week or so.
<kwwii> cool
<kwwii> dude, this sylvain marc guy is getting kinda annoying, sending me emails again and again in french although I do not speak it (and he knows that), posting two word emails as responses on the list and now saying we should change the time of the meeting so that it is better for him
<_MMA_> lol. I just saw.
<thorwil> kwwii: ehm, /dev/null him? after 1 warning if you want to be nice?
<_MMA_> Not much you can do about the list but he should stop sending personal emails.
<troy_s> posting two word emails as responses on the list
<troy_s> _that_ drives my ass nuts -- take the time to edit the bloody quotes and get down to the message part that is pertinent.
<troy_s> Even worse are the folks who post the entire 16pages of comments and put two words at the bottom.
<JustinJoseph> Hi Troy
<JustinJoseph> what is this chat I am in? :)
<_MMA_> yep
<JustinJoseph> So I am in the "yep" chatroom ?
<JustinJoseph> :)
<_MMA_> troy_s: Yep.
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: The chat is Ubuntu Artwork.
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: Should be in your title.
<JustinJoseph> Yea, but what is it about?
<JustinJoseph> What is Unbuntu Artwork? :)
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: Not much.  Occasionally when certain combinations of minds show up, discussions take place.
<_MMA_> wth? How would one come here without knowing what it was?
<JustinJoseph> Channel List
<JustinJoseph> :)
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: Ubuntu = Ubuntu, Artwork = Artwork.
<JustinJoseph> So it's Artwork being created for a Unix Based Operating System?
 * _MMA_ remembers having this chat with another about 4 moths ago.
<JustinJoseph> Was it me? :)
<JustinJoseph> I have the tendency to just channel surf from time to time
<JustinJoseph> to see what's out there :)
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: Uh.  If you flip through your channel list as you would a TV, you will be sorely disappointed with this one.
<JustinJoseph> lol troy
<JustinJoseph> no ppv?
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: If you were looking for the 'disgruntled-jaded-bitter-channel' you may have found what you are looking for.
<JustinJoseph> ah
<JustinJoseph> No I am looking for artists
<_MMA_> No. disgruntled-jaded-bitter-guy=Troy
<JustinJoseph> people who are artistically talented
<JustinJoseph> ;)
<_MMA_> JustinJoseph: No. This isnt a general channel like that.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Put your brakes on.  You fell into that category a good six to eight months ago fecker.  By your own admission.
<_MMA_>  Everyone does for a min. I dont have a rep for it. ;)
<JustinJoseph> Ah, well what do you all do?
<JustinJoseph> if you're not artists :p
<_MMA_> Oh Im not touching that one. Troy's answer will be funnier.
<Toma-> lol
<JustinJoseph> So this is kind of like a hangout
<JustinJoseph> to do nothing
<JustinJoseph> and say a word or two every now and again
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: We do a lot of worrying about global universal truths and usability.
<JustinJoseph> ah
<JustinJoseph> Like George Bush
<JustinJoseph> Americas President?
<JustinJoseph> :)
<JustinJoseph> or like programming (global code)
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: At some point, through a repetition of submitting things to a mailing list, we will - we believe - achieve a utopian design pattern that will work for everyone -- our target audience is Ubuntu users noob to pro.
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: But we prefer to just say 'everyone, everywhere, all the time'.
<JustinJoseph> Is it a Unix operating system?
<_MMA_> No. Linux.
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: No.  Unix is a trademark.
<troy_s> JustinJoseph: It is considered *nixlike.
<_MMA_> GNU/Linux
 * troy_s off to set.
<BHSPitLappy> how can a person be on freenode and not know all about linux already
<JustinJoseph> ah
<JustinJoseph> Well I own a game studio
<JustinJoseph> and our game engine we're building works on linux as well as all the more popular :)
<_MMA_> Yep. It was you.
<BHSPitLappy> good
<JustinJoseph> but I'm business level headed
<JustinJoseph> not technically savvy
<JustinJoseph> ;)
<BHSPitLappy> link?
<JustinJoseph> www.nemesisstudios.com
<_MMA_> Sept 26 2007. (10:31:09 AM) JustinJoseph [n=jj@pool-71-182-209-154.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] entered the room.
<_MMA_> 10:38:24 AM) JustinJoseph: so what is this?
<_MMA_> (10:38:27 AM) JustinJoseph: Abuntu?
<_MMA_> (10:38:49 AM) bersace: JustinJoseph: hi
<_MMA_> (10:38:51 AM) JustinJoseph: hi
<_MMA_> (10:38:57 AM) bersace: what are you talking about ?
<_MMA_> (10:39:04 AM) JustinJoseph: what is Abuntu?
<_MMA_> Exact same questions. Weird.
<troseph> rofl
<troseph> I come back from lunch to Abuntu
<_MMA_> lol. Even down to my own responses. hehehe
<troseph> haha
<JustinJoseph> hah
<JustinJoseph> I guess it was me
<troseph> that's pretty funny.
<JustinJoseph>  :)
<BHSPitLappy> there's too many -osephs in this room
<BHSPitLappy> one of you must go
<_MMA_> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/51273
<troseph> Nemesis Studios should develop for Ubuntu. :P Not just feed the M$ beast.
<JustinJoseph> well
<JustinJoseph> we're not feeding the M beast totally
<BHSPitLappy> he said they do linux clients
<troseph> my bad. I skimmed the site.
<BHSPitLappy> you should make the windows versions crippled somehow :P
<JustinJoseph> we're developing for MAC, PC, Linux and OpenGL
<JustinJoseph> lol
<BHSPitLappy> my ipod supports opengl
<JustinJoseph> nice
<JustinJoseph> I'm not a fan of the Ipod
<troseph> you could develop for it though. AMIRITE?!?
<troseph> :P
<JustinJoseph> I'm sure
<JustinJoseph> we use strict C++
<JustinJoseph> w/ Lua Scripting
<JustinJoseph> I could show you guys some stuff
<JustinJoseph> from our game (but no screenshots)
<JustinJoseph> I'm not allowed :p
<JustinJoseph> You guys wanna see a few things?
<_MMA_> No fun.
<troseph> _MMA_: Got the email.
<_MMA_> Cool
<troseph> I'll get to work on it when I get off work.
<JustinJoseph> http://www.goonworld.com/deleteme/
<JustinJoseph> here are a few things
<JustinJoseph> i just pulled off
<JustinJoseph> to show u
<troseph> I'm not allowed to work on Ubuntu stuff while at work at Novell. :)
<troseph> For obvious reasons. :)
<_MMA_> Yeah. Im gonna email the Flickr pick of the Ubuntu Studio sticker on your car to your boss. ;)
<_MMA_> *pic
<troseph> haha.
<troseph> It sits in the front row of the parking lot everyday. :)
<_MMA_> ;)
<troseph> regarding the statement on that GDM, I am a fan of punk/metal/etc but that type of theming isn't for my computer. :) haha
<_MMA_> Ok. It _will_ be done for Hardy+1.
<JustinJoseph> you guys look?
<troseph> and the black window is not a part of the bg
<JustinJoseph> cus im about to pull it
<JustinJoseph> lol
 * troseph is looking
<JustinJoseph> just a few minor things
<JustinJoseph> i can't show u anything really, lol
<JustinJoseph> just givng you an idea ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-09
<troseph> :)
<JustinJoseph> but yea
<JustinJoseph> a few things i can access from her,e just grabbed a couple
<JustinJoseph> :p
<JustinJoseph> but you get the idea
<JustinJoseph> well it was nice meeting you all again
<troseph> _MMA_ I'll still work on one themed as such.
<JustinJoseph> Sorry - I use IRC to look for artists sometimes
<JustinJoseph> :p
<troseph> :) Peace, JustinJoseph
<_MMA_> troseph: np. Feel free to work on a couple of ideas.
<_MMA_> Im sure we'll go back and fourth a couple of times.
<kwwii> btw, if anyone can draw a nice dragon, kde is looking to replace/update it's logo to something more mature, with simple lines, strong contrast, all in all more logo-like than a real pic or a cartoon as we have now
<BHSPitLappy> if KDE adopted Trogdor as its logo, I would drop all my harsh feelings toward it and switch promptly
<kwwii> ;-)
<troseph> I think that is a change I have been waiting for a long time to happen. :)
<lapo> hi
<nothlit> kwwii: you're looking for a silhouette of a dragon?
<nothlit> kwwii: simple or more crest like?
<kwwii> nothlit: yeah, but a very simple version
<kwwii> something we can use a logo
 * _MMA_ wonders why this wasnt posted to the art list? http://news.launchpad.net/general/help-design-the-new-launchpad-logo
 * thorwil wonders why _MMA_ doesn't just post it there himself
<_MMA_> Because its not my job.
<thorwil> _MMA_: maybe that's good. the less people know ... ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-10
<Burgundavia> is meeting in -meeting or here?
<_MMA_> Burgundavia: Has been -meeting.
<Burgundavia> _MMA_: ok, fridge event says that
<lapo> hi
<solac> hi
<kwwii> less than 30min now
<andreasn> ah, right
<andreasn> should probably try to attend
<andreasn> (after getting some coffee :) )
<kwwii> it would be nice if you attended
<kwwii> ok, make that last run to the toilet or to the fridge or coffee machine
<encompass> hi guys... this the place for the meeting?
<Who_> encompass: apparently we'll be in ubuntu-meeting
<encompass> ok thx
<damianvila> I think it's #ubuntu-meeting
<CpidWolf> hi
<CpidWolf> alooooone
<Who_> if you're here for the meeting we're in ubuntu-meeting
<Who_> and hi, by the way :)
<CpidWolf> lol
<CpidWolf> ty
<somerville32> kwwii, heya
<Who_> somerville: the art team is in #ubuntu-meeting
<Who_> encompass: for the meeting perhaps move the discussion about memaker thmes into here...
<encompass> Who_: I can
<encompass> Who_: are you interterested in memaker?
<Who_> encompass: I don't have the time for artwork on it, I'm afraid :)
<encompass> Who_: no worried
<Who_> andreasn: that icon review page is really great. Are you doing the tweaking?
<andreasn> Who_: well, I'm going to do fixes for it upstream at some point
<andreasn> but for ubuntu-specific stuff (human-icon-theme) I'm too short on time with my new job and stuff
<Who_> upstream? I thought that Human was originally designed by a paid artist and dumped in Ubuntu?
<Who_> andreasn: design job?
<andreasn> yeah, at imendio
<andreasn> I'm going to fix it in gnome, but I'm not going to draw any human-icon-theme icons
<Who_> cool :). Congrats on the imendio Job. Seems like a fun place to be...
<andreasn> yeah, I like it
<Who_> (seems, in the 'I've read some blogs and seens oem cool work' sense - I'm not claiming much knowledge :)
<Who_> _MMA_: what name do you go by on the list? I'm trying to put names to ... names
<_MMA_> Cory K.
<Who_> ahhh :)
<_MMA_> somerville32: Pull a branch of example-look: bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/example-look/dev Then look at ubuntustudio-look: bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-look/UbuntuStudio ubuntustudio-look If you look you'll see how alot of source files are duplicated.
<somerville32> kwwii, Just so you know...
<somerville32> kwwii, or wait
<somerville32> kwwii, Did you notice that Alpha 2 had no background image? :P
<kwwii> somerville32: no, that would really such
<kwwii> suck
<kwwii> nobody mentioned anything to me yet
<somerville32> Well, I hope you don't notice that Alpha 3 won't have one either :P
 * somerville32 ducks.
<_MMA_> lol.
<_MMA_> Well thats not as bad as not having a kernel. ;)
<somerville32> :]
<somerville32> However, I have uploaded the fix so Alpha 4 will have a desktop image (the elephant one indeed)
<Who_> somerville32: I was thinking about updating some aspects of Blubuntu... would you be able to give me a hand on the packaging?
 * _MMA_ _REALLY_ suggests working with TheMuso 1st.
<somerville32> Who_, sure
<Who_> okay - Uni term is kinda full so it might never happen - no promises, but I'll see
<Who_> thanks :)
<somerville32> np
<_MMA_> Who_ kwwii: Wanna have a quick Skype chat about Theme Teams?
<Who_> _MMA_: How quick?
<_MMA_> Depands on Ken and you actually.
<_MMA_> I have all the time in the world. ;)
<Who_> Cos I have about 5 mins, I'm afraid
<Who_> we could schedule another time?
<_MMA_> Sure.
<_MMA_> Hit me up when you have time.
<Who_> kwwii: you?
<_MMA_> Hopefully kwwii will be around.
<kwwii> hrm?
<kwwii> sure
<kwwii> let me run to the bathroom and get a drink first :-)
<bersace> Hi everyone
<_MMA_> kwwii: I dont think Who can but hit me up when you're on.
<bersace> Everyone, please take a beer to welcome that brand new shiny tangoish update-notifier icon :D
<Who_> _MMA_ are you around on IRC a lot, kwwii too?
<bersace> wih tango apport icons will lands soon ;)
<_MMA_> Who_: Yeah.
<_MMA_> I have to for Ubuntu Studio.
<Who_> cool. I'm off. talk soon
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-11
<nysosym> hi there
<nysosym> kwwii: congrats for KDE 4.0 :)
<kwwii> nysosym: thanks, I had some help though
<nysosym> sure, i know :)
<nysosym> i also like the new color palette for hardy :)
<kwwii> cool
<andreasn> kwwii: congrats on the release!
<kwwii> andreasn: thanks, good to know that I can do something else for a while now
<andreasn> like 4.1 ;)
<kwwii> hehe
 * Tm_T is shaking
<_MMA_> kwwii: TheMuso cleaned up example-look to match the changes he did in ubuntustudio-look. Should make it easier to use as a base now. Check it out. bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/example-look/dev
<Cimi> kwwii, news from yesterday's meeting I might notice for the murrine development?
<_MMA_> I didnt see that but I did mention you.
<Cimi> just to notice how the development will take place
<kwwii> _MMA_: cool, I will check that out in a bit
<kwwii> Cimi: pretty much we talked about how hardy will have smaller changes and the big changes will be made first in hardy+1
<kwwii> hardy being the last of the LTS cycle and only 4 months away
<Cimi> yes
<Cimi> so no new theme?
<_MMA_> Not for Hardy.
<Cimi> oh cool
<_MMA_> Cimi: So will you know release a new Murrine update?
<_MMA_> s/know/now
<kwwii> hardy is supported for a long time and supposed to be the most solid of the line before we screw everything up again and start fresh
<Cimi> I have more time now to convert the world from ubuntu to murrine ;)
<kwwii> :-)
 * _MMA_ downloads 30MB worth of build-deps to build some art packages. :D
<_MMA_> (20 just for a iconset) :P
<thorwil> hey nand
<_MMA_> kwwii: No artwork deadlines here? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
<_MMA_> kwwii: Want me to approximate the ones from Gutsy? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule
<kwwii> erm, they were there and now they are gone
<kwwii> freaky
<kwwii> yeah, we should go with pretty much the same ones from gutsy
<_MMA_> Ok. Ill do it.
<nand> hey thorwil
<_MMA_> kwwii: How's that?
<thorwil> nand: would you be ok with an svg with the text and region rectangles in layers? you could check font sizes, check size and coords of the rects and export a template after hiding layers with one file
<nand> thorwil: If it is feasible for a inkscape noob, no problem :)
<nand> s/for/by/
<thorwil> nand: heh, sure. plus you have your helpdesk right here ;)
<nand> :)
<nand> thorwil: just saw your annoying bugs mockups. I like both D & E! What is your personal preference?
<thorwil> nand: D
<thorwil> for reference ;) http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/ubuntu-most-annoying-bugs/
<nand> thorwil: If D, then IMO a very small margin between the logo and the borders would make it nicer.
<nand> like the others samples
<thorwil> will try that later on
<nand> otherwise, it's perfect
<nand> ok
<thorwil> heh, thanks!
<thorwil> nand: you got mail
<nand> thorwil: in the inbox! thanks. I'll host and post as usual?
<thorwil> nand: i don't think anyone wants to touch them. they're meant as base for generated text
<nand> ok
<thorwil> nand: oh, to work with these files, you need the layers dialog (shift+ctrl+L)
<nand> thorwil: hehe yes, I was looking for them.
<nand> ok it looks straighforward
<thorwil> nand: good, as your support goes to eat something ;)
<nand> thorwil: ;) I shall too. Thanks again for your work!
<kwwii> _MMA_: looks good, thanks man
<_MMA_> np
<thorwil> nand: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/ubuntu-most-annoying-bugs-2/
<nand> thorwil: perfect! Concerning font sizes, GD offers a pretty nice API, I think I could handle that. I'll see that soon
<thorwil> nand: cool. i'll prepare another template file, then
<nand> thx
<thorwil> nand: note that with bugs 2, indexed PNG with 128 colours beats JPG
<thorwil> haven't tried a smaller index, actually
<nand> thorwil: by beating, you mean an higher file size?
<thorwil> nand: smaller files with indexed png. sharper at the same time
<thorwil> it tends to lead to problems with the anti-aliasing, but i saw none in this case
<nand> ok. So I understand png is the better option here
<thorwil> yes, good night :)
<troy_s> http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/01/11/apple_hoists_theres_something_in_the_air_macworld_banners.html
<troy_s> New typesetting.  Very interesting.
<troy_s> That is a massive shift.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-12
<KidProQuo> troy_s: very interesting
<BHSPitMonkey> I should go and buy a share of AAPL
<Madpilot> a share of who?
<BHSPitMonkey> aaple!  :P
<BHSPitMonkey> and sell it a few days after macworld
<KidProQuo> is there a way to lock a gradient to an object in inkscape?
<KidProQuo> so the gradient stays the same even if you move it around the page?
<BHSPitMonkey> KidProQuo, maybe use your foreground object with a mask revealing the gradient below?
<BHSPitMonkey> ask in #inkscape, it's a good channel
<BHSPitMonkey> oh.
<BHSPitMonkey> never mind.
<KidProQuo> BHSPitMonkey: way ahead of you, thanks anyway though
<BHSPitMonkey> noticed
<KingDaver> Hello
<thorwil> nand: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/01/12/ubuntu-most-annoying-bugs-3/
<nand> thorwil: Hiya! thanks! I like the C&D set much
<thorwil> nand: hi. cool, last template coming your way :)
<nand> thorwil: I got the progressive font size working on one sample. Now I just need to go on with the others. Thanks for all your work, this helped me much with the artwork part of the website!
<nand> it will probably be out in a fews weeks to one month
<thorwil> nand: you're welcome. good :)
<BHSPitMonkey> foobar's frobnication bothers me on a daily basis
<troseph> foobar in wine? or is there a native bin for linux?
<thorwil> lol
<troseph> Finally an updated GIMP
<thorwil> shortly after installing gutsy, i removed the shipped gimp to build the most recent myself. coming from gentoo, i'm not used to either strongly patched packets or waiting :)
<troseph> I tried Gentoo for a while.. Coming from Debian, I was frightened and confused. :)
<troseph> I prefer to wait over build things. I guess I'm still afraid of killing something in a compilation.
<thorwil> troseph: killing something in a compilation?
<troseph> rather having something not work, and not knowing why, or how.
<thorwil> ah yes. happens :)
<mgunes> kwwii, ping
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-13
<LaserJock> kwwii: ping?
<somerville32> LaserJock, Kwwii is idle. Is there anything I might be able to help you with?
<LaserJock> oh hmm, it would be late for him :-)
<LaserJock> I wanted to say something regarding the Edubuntu artwork thread
<LaserJock> but I didn't want to sub to ubuntu-artwork just for that
<somerville32> :]
<LaserJock> He said that Edubuntu doesn't use gdm, but in fact it does
<LaserJock> it just *also* uses ldm, which is what he was talking about
 * somerville32 nods.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-05
 * _MMA_ waves.
<_MMA_> Man. *Quiet* in here today.
<thorwil> but you ruined it!
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> Some tinkering: http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/2787/newshirtvw1.png
<thorwil> _MMA_: that very small bit of the uppermost logo stroke on the front is very unfortunate
<_MMA_> thorwil: No. It wraps the side of the shirt. As illustrated by showing the front/back.
<thorwil> _MMA_: what printing service allows that?
<_MMA_> Most I work with. Just a special setup charge. Screen is no different.
<dilomo> thorwil: what do you think of the new contrast (on the right)
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1231175044.png
<lucazade> far better!
<_MMA_> Damn. There things are always so hard for me to see.
<thorwil> dilomo: any differences outside of the entry and combobox?
<dilomo> yeah thu buttons are a bit lighter and the range
<dilomo> the others are still the same
<dilomo> I was ondering if it is good idea to chnage the the check/radio
<dilomo> wondering*
<thorwil> dilomo: to me, no other changes are even visible ...
<thorwil> i do prefer the lighter shadows in entry and combobox
<dilomo> the buttons may not be very visible in the screenshot but
<dilomo> they are when you use the theme
<thorwil> new versions of my jackalope sketch up at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/AlphaBackgrounds
<thorwil> kwwii: ^
<dilomo> thorwil: I like the firs one better because it clearly shows that this is work in progress
<kwwii> thorwil: nice, but I cannot imagine that we will use green
<dilomo> hey ppl: Do you think that the color for the X is appropriate :)
<dilomo> http://www.piccdrop.com/images/1231179578.png
<kwwii> oh boy, I start travelling next week
<kwwii> hi dilomo
<dilomo> hi
<dilomo> kwwii: Happy new year!
<kwwii> dilomo: I like the idea of the glow but I am not sure if it is implemented correctly
<kwwii> dilomo: hehe, yeah...back to work after a long vacation
<kwwii> luckily tomorrow is a holiday in germany
<kwwii> well, in bavaria
<dilomo> kwwii: lucky you :)
<dilomo> you live in bavaria?how are BMW doing ;)
<dilomo> kwwii: what do you mean about the glow?
<kwwii> dilomo: sorry, I meant on the close window deco border, the color might need some tweaking
<kwwii> bmw are doing pretty crappy right now, but audi and porsche are doing great :-)
<dilomo> kwwii: you mean the color is too ... purple? I think BMW are better because they have the bets engines
<dilomo> kwwii: btw when you will be free? I will send you the latest final changes of New Wave when you say.
<kwwii> dilomo: I will start updating things soon...not sure exactly what I am doing first since we have reorganized the team
<kwwii> dilomo: feel free to send me any updates
<kwwii> I will start building packages for updating intrepid (once I update my laptop to intrepid)
<dilomo> kwwii: thanks! Any news on what exactly are the ar team doing? Any new themes? I know of the notifications though.
<kwwii> dilomo: right now I am working mainly on the notifications
<kwwii> although today I did some stuff for launchpad
<dilomo> cool
<dilomo> is it true that ubuntu will use plymouth splash technology in9.10?
<kwwii> not in 9.10 (except as an installable package/kernal combo)
<kwwii> we are testing it out for the next release
<kwwii> depending on how everything works we will have it in 10.4
<kwwii> or perhaps 9.10 if everything works well
<dilomo> WoW that is good
<dilomo> keep up the good work gys! this time ppl will really to see some changes in Ubuntu
<kwwii> :-)
 * dilomo made mistake: ... will really want to see ....
<thorwil> kwwii: well, i think we could have loads of fun with bringing in some green ;)  but the color is easy to change, the scan is b/w, color added with a layer set to grain-merge
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-06
<idro> Hey All
<idro> So basically I wanna make some cool artwork but not to sure where to go. any advice ?
<_MMA_> "_Only_ if you don't record with a JACK application, 16 and 24 bit integer formats are also acceptable." HUH!? :) Um, why?
<_MMA_> (mostly the 1st part)
<thorwil> _MMA_: if it comes in via jack, it already is 32 bit float
<thorwil> _MMA_: i want to avoid conversions
<thorwil> someone recording with Ardour and sending me a 16bit integer export would be ... unfortunate
<_MMA_> Well that's up to them. Just the blanket JACK statement struck me funny. :)
 * _MMA_ sticks his finger in kwwii's nose.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-07
 * _MMA_ lovingly caresses kwwii's back.
 * thorwil fights against the mental picture
<_MMA_> You cant!! :)
<thorwil> _MMA_: yes, but i turned you into a pink teddybear!
<_MMA_> hahahahha (<r-eal lol)
<_MMA_> *real
 * luisbg feels sick now
<_MMA_> luisbg: You're just upset you're not in the mix. ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-08
<_MMA_> BHSPitLappy: Don't you have a Bamboo tablet?
<_MMA_> nm. "DigiPro"
<_MMA_> BHSPitLappy: Might help: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/TabletSetupWizardpen
<BHSPitLappy> _MMA_, what makes you think I have $99 to spend on a tablet?  :P
<_MMA_> There's nothing to make me think you don't.
<_MMA_> And besides, there's always Ebay.
<BHSPitLappy> _MMA_, I'd have sprung for the Bamboo if I could, but I nabbed the cheap Chinese crap
<BHSPitLappy> $35 dolla
<BHSPitLappy> _MMA_, have you used that driver?
<BHSPitLappy> never mind, I goofed.
<BHSPitLappy> _MMA_, hooray, it works
<BHSPitLappy> awesome
<BHSPitLappy> I'll add my model to that list
<_MMA_> cool
<_MMA_> And to answer your previous question, no. I'll only buy Wacom because they just work.
<BHSPitLappy> lol
<BHSPitLappy> I'd buy wacom too, if 1) The prices were a lot lower or 2) I actually needed a good tablet
<BHSPitLappy> one of the two
<BHSPitLappy> _MMA_, my first gimp+tablet+linux drawing!  And it's a children's book! http://img370.imageshack.us/my.php?image=treelu2.png
<_MMA_> fun
<BHSPitLappy> lol
<BHSPitLappy> I like the person who commented on the /Incoming/Jaunty/AlphaBackgrounds page that the submissions weren't polished enough
<kwwii> luisbg and _MMA_ at the same time, must have just gotten out of bed together
<_MMA_> kwwii: mmmm.....
 * _MMA_ loves harry Spanish geeks.
<kwwii> he is only half-spanish iirc
<kwwii> the islanders aren't really spanish, you know
<_MMA_> OH!!
<kwwii> I think he is half african or such
<kwwii> :p
<_MMA_> kwwii: Actually, I just rebooted my bip IRC proxy server we're both connected through.
<_MMA_> (openssl update)
<kwwii> hehe
<luisbg> I'm african sized where it matters
<luisbg> the rest of me is spanish
<kwwii> oooooh, the part we all love to love!
<luisbg> the same one
<luisbg> love and caress
 * savvas pulls the courtains for minors ;p
<_MMA_> hehe
<luisbg> savvas, :P
<savvas> now we all know which address to attack to get back at _MMA_: cpe-071-070-203-016.nc.res.rr.com :P
<_MMA_> bring it.
<savvas> does anyone know if there's going to be anything fancy about inkscape in jaunty?
<savvas> new features etc?
<luisbg> no clue
<_MMA_> savvas: Nothing will be different. Unless they really hurry on alot.
<_MMA_> I'd just run SVN. Really easy to compile.
<savvas> I'm still waiting for those how-to steps you promised! :)
<_MMA_> 1 sec
<_MMA_> http://paste.ubuntu.com/102188
<_MMA_> savvas: That *should* work on a clean install. Makes a checkinstall deb.
<_MMA_> When you get to the checkinstall questions, let me know.
<savvas> woohoo!
<savvas> thanks _MMA_ :)
<savvas> I know to do it from here on :P
<_MMA_> Cool
<savvas> this is great, there should be a way to make a package that follows inkscape's svn, hmm..
<_MMA_> savvas: The "make -j 2" part is specific to me. I have 2 core. So change that to suit.
<savvas> ok
<_MMA_> savvas: tedg is already working to get the Inkscape testers PPA back up.
<_MMA_> kwwii: *PLEASE* unsub the various art teams from bug 99508. It's an nVidia issue.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 99508 in human-theme "Titlebar incorrectly drawn with geforce 5/6/7, compiz and human-theme" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/99508
<_MMA_> (there are dupes)
<kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I should do that
<kwwii> or someone else should :-)
<_MMA_> Can I?
 * _MMA_ didn't think he could.
<kwwii> I think anyone on the team can, or?
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/moon-inkscape.png
<kwwii> what do you think of that?
<kwwii> a pic for the nightly inkscape build launchpad page
 * _MMA_ clicks
<_MMA_> Inkscape logo feels a little big. But that's just personal pref.
<kwwii> I will probably change the logo a bit to make it fit
<kwwii> probably something more like http://sinecera.de/moon-inkscape1.png
<kwwii> and with that, I am off to band practice
<_MMA_> Rawk out!
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-09
<_MMA_> http://launchpad.net/~inkscape-nightly/+archive
 * _MMA_ likes the caution stripes in the new Inkscape (Devel) icon. :P
<kwwii> _MMA_: hey man, thanks!
<kwwii> did you see the final moon pic?
<kwwii> I have tested the inkscape packages on intrepid and hardy, if anyone finds any problems with them let myself or _MMA_ or ted know
<kwwii> _MMA_: wanna add that to the wiki?
<_MMA_> kwwii: Sorry. 1 sec
<_MMA_> kwwii: Which wiki? Inkscapes? I don't really work on it.
<_MMA_> And I have the PPA package running on 3 machines just fine.
<_MMA_> kwwii:  And this is better than the last. https://launchpadlibrarian.net/21037460/moon-inkscape1.png
<_MMA_> kwwii: On the Art teams pages, do we have a "common tools" page or something?
<kwwii> _MMA_: on the tools page of the ubuntu artwork wiki pages
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-10
<SealV> good evening
<SealV> anyone on?
<_MMA_> SealV: Best to just ask. ;) I dont chat but Ill answer a question or two.
<SealV> critique it then: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/rect5160.png?t=1231548577
<SealV> pure svg :3 based on a cc image
<_MMA_> SealV: Ahh... I like. I'd work at a 16:10 aspect though.
<_MMA_> I could totally see something like this shipping.
<SealV> ach.. right 1920 by 1200, right?
<_MMA_> For Studio, I work @ 2560x1600. That covers up to 30" monitors.
<SealV> drool
<_MMA_> Well Studio users are a special case. I do have a 24" @1920x1200. They are more common. I just feel its better to go a little bigger. ;)
<SealV> I have no idea how to change the ratio T_T, I will clean up the image and up it to the wiki
<_MMA_> SealV: Just change the document size, change the background to same. Lock the bunny and scale to fit.
<_MMA_> Its rather simple.
<_MMA_> SealV: if you cant do it send it to me. I will.
<SealV> I am having huge slowdowns when dealing with that big of an image, I will send it to you
<_MMA_> Shouldn't matter. nodes ant things are the same.
<_MMA_> coryisatm@ubuntu.com
<_MMA_> *Rendering( it however might get taxing but you can always render smaller.
<_MMA_> *Rendering*
<SealV> so render small and then blow it up?
<SealV> sent
<SealV> editing wiki now.
<_MMA_> k
<_MMA_> SealV: I got it. Tinkering with it now.
<SealV> yay
<_MMA_> SealV: What kinda CPU are you running? My little 1.3Ghz does fine.
<SealV> laptop 1.1, when I move the rectange inkscape goes beserk
<_MMA_> Ok.
<SealV> I hate editing wikis :<
<_MMA_> SealV: Coming at you.
<SealV> christ I screwed up the real image. so now you can only get the preview
<_MMA_> ?
<_MMA_> Oh, the embedded image?
<_MMA_> Was broken here. I figured it would show again for you.
<SealV> yeah I am uploading the real file now
<_MMA_> You know you can save those *in* the SVG right? Makes the file bigger. Might not be a big deal.
<SealV> eh? how do I do that?
<SealV> *fixed btw
<_MMA_> Effects->Images->Embed all Images
<_MMA_> That *might* only be in the -devel version though. :-/
<SealV> :o nope its there. genius.
<_MMA_> SealV: If you dont mind development builds: http://launchpad.net/~inkscape-nightly/+archive It will install along with the normal version.
<SealV> another question: why isnt the eyeball not showing up when I open svg in image viewer?
<_MMA_> SealV: I've seen odd things like that also. Different rendering lib?
<SealV> quite possible.. the is dev version is pretty cool
<SealV> *this
<_MMA_> I've been using it for a while. I like being to make all the toolbars really small to give me screenspace.
<SealV> text>svg fonts Hells yes
<SealV> forums are down: can I subscribe to the ubuntu-art mailing list?
<_MMA_> SealV: Always
<SealV> thanks! and for your edit
<SealV> still looking for critiques on Mr. Bun
<kwwii> SealV: I was hoping to discuss that next week when I am in london (with mark)
<SealV> :o k then will wait
<Cimi> kwwii, new mockups?
<SealV> @Cimi murrine svn is awesome
<Cimi> kwwii, unfortunately I need to send the laptop for technical assistance... the lcd became purple yesterday
<Cimi> thank you SealV
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-11
<RainCT> Hi
<RainCT> Is there some way how I can see which gtkrc file I'm using? (I'm using a theme installed with Epidermis and I don't know where it palces the files.. ~/.themes is empty)
<SiDi> hey zniavre
<SiDi> can i pm you please ? :P
<zniavre> for sure
<zniavre> > /usr/share/themes is the other place for gtkrc theme
<RainCT> zniavre: yes, but there it isn't neither :/
<zniavre> RainCT:  i got a command line to change theme (gconftool-2 --type=string --set /apps/metacity/general/theme [theme_name])you should find your current theme into gconf-editor > my string
<RainCT> yeah, LinuxMint, but I don't know where the files are
<kwwii> /usr/share/gdm/themes/
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> wrong
<thorwil> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/485382/countint_pre-01.ogg
<SealV> afternoon all
<SealV> finished tail added some details. had some fun with swirls. http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3927/rabbit31610hh0.png
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-11
<kwwii> morning all
<thorwil> morning!
<thorwil> how's the weather in london? :)
<kwwii> thorwil: actually, much better than germany ;)
<darkmatter> -6C here. I'm going skinny dipping!
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> oops
<darkmatter> kwwii: I'm seriously considering authoring an advanced css extension for gtk+
<thorwil> darkmatter: what would make it advanced and how would it be an extension?
<kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, I have the same question as thorwil ;)
<darkmatter> thorwil: long version or short? I'll start with the short I guess. from one aspect, think of something akin to glade, but much more flexible and potentially powerful. designed to encompass not just local, but the web as well. (bear with me. kinda tired, my wording is substandard and I may jump back and forth a bit). part of the reasoning is to avoid unnecessary redundancy. trivial and unimportant example: text rendering. currently if 
<darkmatter> shoot. hope that didn't pass the cutoff
<kwwii> hehe, it did
<darkmatter> last bit was?
<kwwii> yepp
<kwwii> I think I get the basis of it
<kwwii> you want something which is easier to use, with something like a gui editor
<darkmatter> kwwii: aesthetics are only part of the reasoning, but yes, partly. but still on the aesthetic issue. gtk is fairly limited in what it can doin a so-called vanilla state. adding a higher degree of control would allow for much consistency in interfaces. (I'm talking overall, not patterns. there are times when attempts at consistency in patterns make usability and usefulness fail, since they're always heavily dependent on the application
<darkmatter> kwwii: at another level it ties into application development as well. as it is css based (I'd like to push beyond pure css when I (hopefully) do find the time to start), it also opens the possibility to 'transplant' the web. allowing for traditional 'runs in browser' crap to  become 'who needs a browser?'. it may sound akin to prism or such, but it's only because I generalized :P
<thorwil> i do think browser/desktop should be bridged with common framework, resulting in apps that don't care as much as possible
<thorwil> i also think glade and the layout system it represents isn't even nearly good enough
<thorwil> but i have doubts about CSS alone being suitable for gui layout
<darkmatter> it's a matter of convergence. at the moment we have junk that runs in the browser, stripped down browsers that run junk in chromeless windows, local junk, and hybrid junk. part of the plan is to make that interaction less fractured and allow for better integration where it makes sense. I'm not saying do it everywhere
<kwwii> darkmatter: that sounds like an interesting approach long term...sounds *really* hard to do though :p
<darkmatter> thorwil: it's not css alone. thus the 'advanced' part ;)
<thorwil> kwwii: you mean it doesn't sound like a solo show? ;)
<darkmatter> kwwii: yeah. but that's the general rule. things that in the end are worthwhile are never easy
<thorwil> darkmatter: i think a better layout system should borrow from parametric CAD. for example a button would have anchor points on all 4 corners, plus at least an additional one for the basline of its label. add relations to the anchor points to make them line up vertically or horizontally
<darkmatter> kwwii: I'd go deeper, but then I'd have to get into the entire plan.. the inklings of which mysteriously popped into what was supposed to be a strictly gtk related discussion :P
<thorwil> darkmatter: add a rule system to determine the spacing between the elements layed out via anchor points
<kwwii> darkmatter: I think in order to make those kinds of changes you would need to be very involved in gtk development
<thorwil> the anchor system should have 2 main benefits over the current tables: no need to know the layout before creating widgets in the editor, as you can start with widgets and then do layout. no isolated areas due to separate tables and expanders
<darkmatter> thorwil: I've no issues with CAD or similar, and forgive me if the 'css extension' led you on, perhaps not the best choice of words, since css is only part of the idea. but in general the idea is to conserve both code and ui. improve what already exists, if improving it isn't feasible for a given set of functions then just replace those bits. keep unnecessary redundancy to an absolute minimum and avoid i entirely whenever possible
<darkmatter> if we already have a specific functionality, don't replicate it, hook into it
<darkmatter> sure, I speak a lot from aesthetics/UX, it's the artist/designer in me, but I'm more than just a ui guy. the definition of 'design' to me is a singular subject. it is the environment at all levels, both structural and conceptual.
<darkmatter> it is widely agreed to be the proper approach (which I just happen to believe wholeheartedly in), but it's also generally avoided like the plague, since initially it does encompass a much higher degree of engineering
<darkmatter> kwwii: I agree about the involvement with gtk dev 'if' it catches on, but the extension is more for proof of concept. I still need to bounce ideas around a few heads. but basically, whatever final form it takes, it'll be extension >proof of concept app (even if it's just an alternative gui-level bit glued to an existing application). think of it like a flash mockup, only more substantial.
<darkmatter> it's an entire next-gen environment concept I'm working on. a lot of stuff, the gui level is just a tiny part. It's less about making it a reality (though that goal is the ultimate dream) than sparking ingenuity. reach for the stars, land on the moon.
<kwwii> darkmatter: sounds pretty cool, good idea....hope it's not too much work for one person though
<darkmatter> kwwii: there's a few other who are interested in helping out. not enough for anything large scale, but even if only one or two items get realized (necessary compromises included) I'll be pleased
<darkmatter> kwwii: as far as the convergence bit goes. I remember the days when we actually had more convergence between the web and the local system. it always felt right. then it got killed. now a few bits of lovely have brought some of it back (not linux specifically, but in general), and it 'still' feels right
<kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, true
<kwwii> I agree with the concept but I cannot imagine how much work it'll be :p
<darkmatter> like the really old msn, circa 98ish. msn may suck, but the old interfaces (one was filer-ish, the other was kinda like a media center' were spot on for the era. today there's things like skimmer (its an air app, so should run on linux), all kinds of third party WPF stuff for windows, all are remarkable for what they do. apple junk. there's even 'prior art' from nix that was borrowed by the 'evil empires' :P
<kwwii> hehe, right
<darkmatter> convergence died initial because at the time there wasn't a 'market' if you will. the net was young and full of hope, but hadn't yet found it's place. the 'market' exists today, but we've gotten caught in the 'go to the web' mentality, like the cloud (aka the glorified dumb terminal) I'd rather have a smart terminal that is even smarter when it is connected
<darkmatter> I mean, our libraries aren't music/pictures/documents. our library is whatever information is currently at our disposal. regardless of it's location.
<kwwii> I tihnk that part of the fault was the technological status at the time and the misunderstanding of how things would progress
<darkmatter> aye
<darkmatter> one of the parts I do intend to realize is Sojourn. the general concept is a library/activity center of sorts. atm it taked light inspiration frome the slab, as there is a panel applet for shortcuts (activities proper instead of an activities button as a list of apps) applets current design direction is two paned clickable categories (which open the appropriate 'location') in the left pane, the right pane displays bookmarks for each c
<darkmatter> the home 'page' of the main application would contain you're favorite bits, most recent messages, notification, etc. similar to the way home is on the web, but encompassing local as well. blah blah
<darkmatter> you get the idea
 * vish googles darkmatter's blog...! damn...! isnt one yet :/
<darkmatter> it'll come. finishing up some crap
<vish> darkmatter: you better start one soon , else I'm gonna check the logs and post all your ideas as mine ;p
<darkmatter> :P
 * vish lazy to think up new ideas ;)
<darkmatter> vish: but yes. the main concept/interface collection has a name now :P the dream is still to have an environment devoid of applications in the traditional sense, focusing on what you're doing instead, but reality is about compromise, and ya gotta start somewhere. which is the root of the concept. plug it into existing applications without the need to think about the apps
<darkmatter> I thought Sojourn appropriate, since it is about the journey (aka the user experience)
<darkmatter> and the various definitions of sojourn also are appropriately applicable at various levels
<darkmatter> various usages*
<darkmatter> meh. tired brain, bad engrish *shrugs*
<vish> argh! , i'm trying to send a mail to the gnome-shell list with a mockup , but mccann hasnt updated the shell to his latest app menu change :/
<darkmatter> vish: and after sojourn is born I'm going on a sojourn ;p
<vish> ;)
<vish> lol  , reporter *breaks* "unbreakable" phone > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/8450385.stm
<darkmatter> hehe
 * Equiet_ found an usability enhancement in Nautilus (and others maybe).
<Equiet_> When you set Nautilus to List view (I am not sure about english translation), you see the Last change in "Mon, October 2 2009, 14:13:15 CEST".
<Equiet_> Wouldn't be better to show "2 months ago" and when you hover it, it will show the exact time?
<Equiet_> What do you think?
<thorwil> list view is correct
<thorwil> there are several modes for displaying dates
<thorwil> Equiet_: could be nice, not quite sure about it.
<kwwii> I think that this idea has been discussed before, let me try to find info
<kwwii> I think there is a bug report about it, sounds like a good idea to me...keep pushing ;)
<kwwii> Equiet_: this would probably be a good discussion for #ayatana
<thorwil> i have a "client" who can't decide between the first 4 on http://www.foopics.com/get/ce410753a0d21dc17701fcc231bdbf10/0
<thorwil> any thoughts, especially regarding the F?
<Equiet_> thorwil: Why there are so much elements? Can't be just one row?
<thorwil> Equiet_: it's a logo for an audio plugin collection
<thorwil> Equiet_: so the elements stand for it being a group/set/collection
<Equiet_> I know, I read your blog.
<Equiet_> But 3 circles are enough for me.
<vish> Equiet_: blog?
<Equiet_> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/
<vish> oh thorwil's
<Equiet_> thorwil: But if only these are choices, I like 2B.
 * vish likes 3B ;)
<vish> oops! noooo
<thorwil> is anyone here reminded of other symbols when looking at this set?
<Equiet_> Just facebook and one tool used for measurement.
<vish> bah.. what the hell 3B seems ok
<thorwil> vish: it's out of the game
<thorwil> Equiet_: ok, thanks!
<vish> oh! you meant first 4! i was thinking why you said 4 and the rows had numbers upto four o.0
<vish> heh , i like the 1b from the logo2 batch :D
<vish> thorwil: Equiet_: which is your fav pick ?
<thorwil> vish: one of the 4. seems we have a decision: 2B
<vish> thorwil: i meant from the whole batch you have in your blog
<vish> just asking :)
<thorwil> vish: yes, that's what i meant, too
<vish> ew.. my head hurts at looking at all those logos ! :/
<vish> ;p
<Equiet_> Is https://launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts still acutal? I guess I could submit there my little Nautilus enhancement.
<vish> Equiet_: oh no you dont! i'll invalidate it ;)
<vish> j/k
<vish> Equiet_: the only problem with changing everything to 2months and so , would be too many files would have been edited 2months ago and there would be no way to sort them out
<vish> everything in the 30 month period would be grouped together
<Equiet_> vish: I don't understand.
<vish> Equiet_: list view allows you to sort the files according to the field[currently according to the date modified/saved ,etc...] , if several files only display 2months ago , 1 month ago , those files would just be grouped together and they would not make it easy if the user wants to find something on a particular date
<vish> also , the file edited probably 35 days ago would be next to the file edited 55days ago...
<vish> so the date sort wont really be easy...
<vish> *UNLESS*
<vish> the sort is done by the edit date but only displays the 1month/2month
<vish> But even with that the sort order would not be easy to recognize for the user :(
<Equiet_> vish: No... It would be sorted good.
<Equiet_> Well, I don't know how Nuatilus, but in PHP I use sort by timestamp.
<Equiet_> And that timestamp is changed do "3 months ago" when it's being displayed.
<Equiet_> (Database has timestamp, view/template has the modified one.)
<vish> Equiet_: how does it arrange a file done 95 days ago and 115 days ago? both as 3months ago?
<Equiet_> Yes.
<Equiet_> But 95 days will be first.
<vish> Equiet_: thats where the problem arises... it wont be clear to the user that the sort was since the earlier file was due to it being 95 days earlier... *however* .. it would work if the date was 3months back... i would prefer atleast stuff for 90days to show the date.. beyond which could probably do what you suggest
<Equiet_> vish: There won't be just months. I propose to have "5 seconds ago", "5 minutes ago", "5 hours ago", "5 weeks ago", "5 months ago", "5 years ago".
<vish> hmm...
<Equiet_> Or look at last.fm comments. F.e. http://www.last.fm/music/Mike+Oldfield .
<vish> Equiet_: while it works for the comments page , where the date/time is not really essential[rather it is very ideal for comments]... it would not be ideal as you are now not showing important metadata.  showing 3 months ago is probably easy for user... but when you say 14days  , 28daysago , you have to calculate the date , which is not easy to do immediately
<vish> for those it is better to show the actual date , rather than make the user think/calculate the date
 * Equiet_ got new idea.
<vish> if the user was looking for a file done say 4th jan... he could just look at the file date and know it ... if it was displayed as 8days ago.. he has to think first and know how many days ago 4th jan was before finding the file
 * vish awaits
<Equiet_> Take the drag'n'drop window to Calendar on top panel changes the format of time.
<Equiet_> I know, it's not possible. :(
<Equiet_> Or when you search in folder, it doesn't take only file names, but also size, date and type.
<Equiet_> It would be great to type "image" and you will see only images.
<vish> Equiet_: i think zeitgeist allows you to do that...
<wolter> Hi, can anybody tell me which would be the best method to save a page-size png image into a pdf document without having it lose quality?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-12
<JesseW> So, kwwii said he updated lp:ubuntu-wallpapers, but I can't find any new version... anyone have any ideas where it might be?
<JesseW> test
<vish> !test
<ubottu> yes, I'm alive.
<JesseW> vish: thanks, good to know.
<vish> ;)
<JesseW> vish: any idea where kwwii might have been talking about when he said he uploaded a new version of ubuntu-wallpapers?
<vish> JesseW: kwwii read your scrollback and said he would sort it out asap [incase he hasnt replied to your mail]
<vish> JesseW: since everyone has got back from vacation he would probably have a lot of backlog... he'd get to your issue , rest assured :)
<JesseW> vish: no worries -- I was really impressed with the speed he responded to my email, I'm in no hurry.
<vish> JesseW: i forgot the lp link.. could you post it again? did you check the karmic or lucid branch?
<JesseW> Hm, it might be in lucid.  Let me check that one.
<JesseW> nope, according to https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-wallpapers none of the branches have been touched for at least 10 weeks...
<vish> JesseW: it might be in a separate branch... you can try asking him during work hrs UTC
<JesseW> vish: none of the branches he owns have been touched, either: https://code.launchpad.net/~kwwii
<vish> thorwil: hi... i'm adding links to the humanity on the main artwork wiki page? [wanted to mention it first to you :)  ]
<vish> s/links/link
<kwwii> vish: sounds ok to me...we nned to redo things a bit anyway
<kwwii> adding a requests page, etc
<vish> kwwii: yeah.. we do need a art request page :(   several members introduce themselves on the ML shown their portfolio ,and disappear since the chat is only about themes or icons :(
<vish> show*
<kwwii> true
<kwwii> also, I thought about sending out an email once a month or so with updates, etc
<thorwil> vish: oh, i thought it was simply me scaring them away! ;)
<vish> thorwil: yeah , that too ;p
<vish> crap!
<vish> well heh , now i receive the mail ! :)
<\vish> ooh... metacity has rgba :)
<zniavre> on lucid?
<Equiet> I need exlanation. \vish: Murrine isn't Metacity?
<zniavre> murrine is gtk engine
<zniavre> sorry answering ...
<\vish> Equiet: the metacity is the window border
<\vish> the one which has all the close , minimize , maximize
<zniavre> i wondering if it's the rgba module patch make rgba running on metacity on karmic or if it does alone ?
<\vish> zniavre: yeah.. just noticed after reboot , that the borders are all semi transparent.. human theme looks kinda funny :D
<zniavre> the border are transluscent with compiz and gwd no ?
<zniavre> you can check if it's murrine+ rgba with tooltips and/or menu
<\vish> zniavre: i already had set the borders to be semi trasnparent using gwd.. but my settings are over ridden and they are more transparent ;)
<zniavre> ok
<zniavre> tooltip are rounded and menu also
<\vish> not yet
<zniavre> http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8645/capture2x.png
<\vish> hmm , the last time i tried guest session , it took out xorg
<Equiet> I hope Lucid will have at least one theme in default that uses rgba.
 * \vish tries again
<zniavre> of course opacity is not activated for compiz
<\vish> zniavre: oh.. how did you change it?
<zniavre> menu / tooltip widget with RGBA = TRUE
 * Equiet wonders how zniavre got application's main menu into main panel.
<\vish> oops! i forgot  i'm using industrial menu ;)
<\vish> yeah , the tooltips are rgba
<\vish> zniavre:  the rounded ?
<vish> oh great! again.. it froze again :/
<vish> re
<zniavre> rounded too via gtkrc for those widgets
 * vish tries
<zniavre> option > roundness = 4
<zniavre> Equiet,  it's globalmenu wait a sec i will submit a link
<zniavre> http://paste.ubuntu-fr-secours.org/src-49797   > my gtkrc (a bit messy)
<vish> hmm.. weird.. now the translucent doesnt work on the titlebar :(
<vish> brb , i'll try relogin
<zniavre> Equiet, http://code.google.com/p/gnome2-globalmenu/
<Equiet> Thank you.
<zniavre> you are welcome
<Equiet> I think, I have a better solution for this.
<Equiet> Here is it: http://i38.tinypic.com/2cmus8p.jpg
<vish> ah crap!.. now gnome has 72 icons for weather :/
<vish> thats for the moon alone :(
<Equiet> vish: Lol. How's that possible?
<vish> Equiet: the different phases of the moon!
<vish> oh why !
<troy_s> Sorry guys... you all need to see this. http://vimeo.com/7809605
<troy_s> Absolutely beautiful work.
<troy_s> Stunning.
<troy_s> Bloody gorgeous.
<zniavre> dmaned my comp is not strong to play it ...:o(
<zniavre> even with HDOff
 * zniavre is crying 
<coz_> hey guys
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-13
<JesseW> hm, so far, in investigating the copyright status of the ubuntu-wallpapers, I've found 3 out of 3 with problems...
<thorwil> JesseW: which ones exactly and what problems?
<JesseW> thorwil: well, so far I've found two that are labeled as All-rights-reserved on flickr (which is probably fine, as someone did contact them, and presumably got a free license from them in private -- but we need to verify what exactly that license was (CC-BY-2.5, CC-BY-SA-2.0, CC-BY-2.0, something else?)
<JesseW> one that is under CC-BY-SA-2.0 and another under CC-BY-2.0 (which means we have to include both licenses in the debian/copyright file)
<JesseW> and I'm not sure what the intended difference is between the Upstream Author section in debian/copyright, and the AUTHORS file, but many of the photographers arn't listed in Upstream Authors.  And I know they should be listed as holding copyright on their images in the Copyright section...
<JesseW> and I've only looked through 4 images so far...
<thorwil> JesseW: afaik Ivanka Majik contacted the photographers of desired photos with no suitable license. if they made it in, that should mean she got allowance. unfortunate if that isn't documented in any way
<thorwil> kwwii: ^ do you know more about this?
<JesseW> thorwil: that's what I understood.  Hopefully Ivanka kept the emails, so we can verify *which* license the photographers agreed to...
<JesseW> thorwil: I've been talking with kwwii for the past few days about this.  He's been quite helpful.
<JesseW> it's just dotting i's and crossing t's, but it is worth getting right.
<thorwil> JesseW: i'm all for doing a clean job regarding licensing. as author myself i would hate to see disregard
<JesseW> thorwil: yep.  I also want to make sure that links to the filkr pages for the images are included in the AUTHORS file, so people can track them down and comment, get bigger versions, etc.  (also, I think it's technically required by all the CC licenses after version 1.0)
<thorwil> JesseW: i think the attribution part is up to the authors to define. if you ship a CC licensed photo, linking to a flickr page where it's all-rights-reserved would be ugly
<JesseW> thorwil: agreed.  for the flickr-a.r.r. images, we should see what Ivanka asked them with regards to how they want to be attributed.
<JesseW> great, I now found one (Butterfly.jpg) that 1) has no mention in the AUTHORS file AT ALL -- isn't findable in the Flickr group that all the others seem to be in, and all the examples that TinEye (reverse image search) find are ubuntu screenshots using it as a wallpaper!  While I *hope* that a source (and license) for this can be found, as of now -- it's completely opaque, and presumably illegal.  Dammit.
<thorwil> JesseW: butterfly? i think that's from kwwii himself
<JesseW> thorwil: cool, that would be simplest.  I hope so.
<JesseW> and another CC-BY-SA-2.0 one...
<JesseW> and one under CC-BY-NC-SA-2.0 -- that's not a free content license...
<JesseW> also, Naranja (one of the images) had a duplicated line in the AUTHORS file.
<JesseW> ok, I have six more to do.  I'm going to bed, I'll do the rest later.
<kwwii> howdy all
<darkmatter> o/
<kwwii> just got back from london
<darkmatter> how was it?
<kwwii> good, we got a lot of work done
<darkmatter> nice :)
<kwwii> although my lucid install simply stopped working
<kwwii> update=death
<darkmatter> typical
<zniavre> :o)
<vish> kwwii: wb... well... atleast you dont have train troubles like mat_t  ;0
<vish> kwwii: if you dont have the scrollback.. jesseW was here looking looking for you, seems like a lot of images have copyright differences
<kwwii> vish: yeah, I saw that...I tried to explain to him that we have permission from all the authors to use whatever CC license we want though
<kwwii> I really appreciate his efforts trying to sort things out
<kwwii> and the author file is a bit of a mess
<kwwii> although I did update it since the karmic release and I bet he doesn't know about it, better send him another email
<thorwil> just got a request for a logo that shall express that a work has been created with one specific application *and* other free software. shall look "professional". scalable down to too very small sizes and still work. be 2 tone.
<thorwil> do i have to point out that i declined?
<thorwil> kwwii: tell me more about really good money via font work ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: hehe
<kwwii> thorwil: well, get into this business and I bet you won't be looking for work ;)
<thorwil> kwwii: i thought there's a very close knit circle around the few type foundries, who have their troubles with the digital age? the rest being about few big companies who can pay to have fonts designed for them, which doesn't happen often
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, that is very close to accurate...and fonts are super expensive.
<mat_t> vish: :)
<thorwil> worked on the 1, but i'm not telling which one is the new 1: http://www.foopics.com/get/0487347bbb11cd7f52623ec5cca3d321/0
<thorwil> kwwii: ^ does this fix it for you?
<kwwii> yes, the top one looks better to me
<kwwii> perfect now, really
<kwwii> thorwil: am I right that the top one is the updated one?
<kwwii> :)
<thorwil> kwwii: yes, thank you.
<kwwii> whew ;)
<vish> dang!
<vish> hehe... would have been funny if it was the other way around ;p
<kwwii> :p
<thorwil> vish: i read from designers who would choose a not-so-nice color for a design option they don't want their client to choose
 * vish scratches head and reads again
<thorwil> vish: or when asked for a bigger logo, would present 3 options. client picks middle one without realizing the largest of the size was the one he considered not large enough the previous time
<vish> thorwil: oh , yeah...i'v heard that before
<vish> thorwil: its more psychological , sometimes when presented with options people select the same old one thinking its better or has been improved
<vish> thorwil: which would mean that to sell an idea[which you think is really good].. the later ones need to suck more ;p
<thorwil> grr, the net is crawling, as if it suffers from the weight of snow
<vish> thorwil: did you check out the link troy posted yesterday?
<vish> amazing amount of work the artist has put in... it was so real[i couldnt believe it was cgi] , until there was the second video showing how he did it
<kwwii> I just signed up for a new connection, 16Mbit is coming soon ;)
<thorwil> vish: opinions on in how far it is ok to "guide" your clients with such tricks vary quite a bit. in any case, you might not want to present the top pick first
<kwwii> that link from troy is really killer ;)
<kwwii>  it is indeed quite amazing and beautiful. sadly though someone thought it a good idea to introduce terribly kerned typography at 6:28 at which point I could watch no further.
<kwwii> :p
<thorwil> vish: yeah, i had to read it's CG several times. only late in the video i found it to show
<thorwil> http://blog.howdesign.com/content/binary/kerning.png
<kwwii> hehe, nice
<thorwil> http://rlv.zcache.com/yes_we_kern_tshirt-p235186796356893004qzj3_400.jpg
<vish> kwwii: thorwil: in case you guys didnt see the break down > http://vimeo.com/8200251
<kwwii> wow, this is nifty as well
<kwwii> cool to see how it is put together
<vish> kwwii: for the requests page , you mentioned that subscribing the ML , might not be good , right?  how abuout if someone watches the wiki and forwards the requests to the ML? [i wouldnt mind gatekeeping... ]
<vish> if anyone else wants to do it too ,  we could do it side-by-side...
<kwwii> vish: that would be a good idea, yes
<vish> kwwii: thorwil eitherway patrols the artwork wiki.. if anything is wrong he'll kick it right away ;)
<kwwii> hehe, you assume that he always has time for such work ;)
<kwwii> to be honest, it might be best to make the page only editable by one person
<vish> nooo... not like that :)
<kwwii> so that a request has to go in, be accepted (and at the same time a notification goes to the list)
<vish> kwwii: ah , but that would be adding extra work... would be easier if we had a format and the requester *has* to maintain it
<kwwii> vish: sure, that isn't the problem I am trying to solve though
<kwwii> I would like to prevent the page from becoming a huge list of stuff nobody wants to work on and/or is not really needed
<vish> yeah
<vish> kwwii: wouldnt it be easier to remove than one person having to add?
<vish> anyways , it was just a suggestion... :)
<kwwii> vish: well, that might becomd a political problem I guess
<vish> kwwii: if we are filtering stuff in , that would have the same political problem :(
<kwwii> yeah
<thorwil> vish: would be funny if you send a mail to the list, asking who would generally be willing to take on such requests ... and no one answers
<thorwil> that said, i would be tempted to remain silent, too
<vish> grrrr... ;p
<thorwil> oh, the free culture showcase now has an "Other Media" category. well, as long as it's just The Other and no Elders or Ancient ones ...
<wolter> is kolor guild here?
<kwwii> wolter: I have no idea what you mean, so the answer is "no"
<wolter> lol
<wolter> its a guy that made a cover for the ubunu manual project.. I thought maybe he was in here, but apparently --- and as you said --- "no"
<thorwil> wolter: that's David Nel(?)?
<thorwil> could be he posted to the artwork list a while ago, but i'm not aware of him being here
<wolter> nah, Kolor Guild is how he appears in the titlepages page
<thorwil> wolter: i'm right and i guess i remember because there was a link to his portfolio site: http://www.kolorguild.co.za/
<vish> wolter: kolor guild is david nel :)
<wolter> oh
<wolter> hmm.. theres only a david levin here haha
<zniavre_> sorry to ask but where is the config file of xsplash please ? i would want to modify the throbber position
<coz_> zniavre_,   should be in /usr/share/images/xsplash
<coz_> not sure though
<coz_> let me check here
<zniavre_> there is only pictures
<zniavre_> bonjour (btw)
<coz_> zniavre_,   in terminal try    sudo -u gdm xsplash --help
<coz_> looking for the config still
<zniavre_> ok im trying to understand what is in terminal thank you :o)
<coz_> zniavre_,  as I recall  there is a file to edit  I am just having trouble finding the damn t hing
<zniavre_> Ã©Ã©Ã©
<coz_> it might be under   /etc/gdm/Init/Default  but let me still check here
<coz_> zniavre_,   try   /etc/gdm/PreSession/Default    and  /etc/gdm/Init/Default
<zniavre_> usr/bin/xsaplsh this file can't be edited with gedit
<zniavre_> i do not see in this files (etc/gdm .....) something helpfull
<coz_> mm
<zniavre_> im quite sure it's something hardcoded ...sadly
<zniavre_> i spent hours to find a config file
<coz_> zniavre_,  what do you want to do with xplash again?
<zniavre_> change the throbber position
<coz_> I know I have read something about this  hold on let me check again
<zniavre_> thank you
<coz_> zniavre_,  no luck so far
<zniavre_> gedit /etc/dbus-1/system.d/xsplash.conf
<zniavre_> ooops
<coz_> :)
<coz_> zniavre_,  did you ask on #ubuntu or #ubuntu-dev ?
<zniavre_> mmmm no
<coz_> or maybe  #ubuntu-x
<JesseW> per dlocate -conf xsplash, try /etc/dbus-1/system.d/xsplash.conf
<JesseW> sorry, I see that was already suggested
<zniavre_> useless for what i want to do
<coz_> zniavre_,  as I said I remember reading about changing the location on screen I just cant find it
<zniavre_> no problems
<kwwii> zniavre: I think it is in the source code itself
<kwwii>       gtk_fixed_put (GTK_FIXED (priv->fixed),
<kwwii>                      priv->logo,
<kwwii>                      get_monitor_width () / 2 - gdk_pixbuf_get_width (priv->logo_pixbuf) / 2,
<kwwii>                      get_monitor_height () / 3 - gdk_pixbuf_get_height (priv->logo_pixbuf) / 2);
<kwwii> and such seems to tell me it is in the xsplash.c
<kwwii> then again, https://code.launchpad.net/~redteam316/+junk/xsplash-config seems to offer a way around that
<kwwii> at least that is what http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1337671 says
<zniavre> i check this thank you
<kwwii> zniavre: hope it helps :)
<zniavre> :o)
<zniavre> not easily as i hope
<zniavre> but a good way to think
<kwwii> well, loic and ken are working on that xsplash stuff, so it will work
<kwwii> both are canonical employees and one is even french :p
<zniavre> i generaly trust you and launchpad ppa
<zniavre> more than me (i m not sur of what to do really) :o)
<zniavre> do i need to recompile xsplash with the new src/xsplash.c or just adding a xsplash.cfg into usr/share/images/xsplash ?
<zniavre> as you can see im looking for one easy way
<kwwii> well, recompiling is the hard way
<kwwii> adding the xsplash.cfg stuff seems much easier
<kwwii> and allows you to have others easily install it on their systems without the risk of scking things up
<kwwii> fscking things up ;)
<JesseW> kwwii: so, I've looked over all the images, and most of them have problematic licenses on flickr...
<kwwii> JesseW: yes, but as I mentioned, we contacted each directly
<kwwii> and they gave us permission to relicense them under a CC as we needed
<kwwii> JesseW: I think that adding a link to the flickr page in the authors file is a great idea, btw
<kwwii> JesseW: btw, there is also another package with the rest of the short-list in my ppa, if you want to work on that too ;)
<JesseW> sorry, net trouble
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-14
<kwwii> if JesseW rejoins someone tell him that I went to bed
<kwwii> if anyone is still here, that is ;)
 * thorwil wonders if mr. piccirillo should be made to do without CC for his emails by removing that feature just for him
<kwwii> thorwil: ???
<thorwil> kwwii: nm if you didn't see it. he repeatedly puts 4 or 5 ubuntu mailing lists in CC
<kwwii> hrm, I haven't gotten any emails from the list today at all
<kwwii> so I guess it wasn't the art list :p
<Equiet> What's new for artwork request page?
<vish> Equiet: are you subscribed to the mailing list?
<Equiet> Yes.
<vish> Equiet: hmm ... well , no one seemed to be really interested  , it would help to speed things up if members spoke up , would speed things up :)
<kwwii> vish, Equiet: we can work on it, I just haven't had time in the last couple of days
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-15
<coz_> hey guys
<kwwii> hey coz_
<coz_> kwwii,  hey guy :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-16
 * darkmatter pokes coz_
<creatrixsblood> can anyone help me get an mp4 to work with kdenlive?
<darkmatter> nope. such questions are for support channels
<creatrixsblood> it would help if support channels responded
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-17
<nysosym> hi there :)
<nysosym> where is kwwi?
<kwwii> hi
<kwwii> lol, guess I missed him
 * kwwii just got back from seeing avatar with his son
<coz_> 12 people????
<coz_> I thought I was in #cairo-dock for a second
<DanRabbit> lol
<coz_> was there a netsplit or is this it?
<DanRabbit> netsplit?
<coz_> DanRabbit,  that's when one of the freenode servers go down for some reason or repairs and the people who access irc via one of those downed servers   are automatically cut off
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-10
<kwwii> n'abend
<zniavre_> bonsoir
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-11
<thorwil> oh, troy made it unto hacker news: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2091194
<iainfarrell> hey thorwil__
<iainfarrell> happy new year and all that!
<iainfarrell> and doctormo and kwwii too
<thorwil> iainfarrell: heh, yeah, happy new year. just back to normal schedule? :)
<iainfarrell> Yep
<iainfarrell> I'm drafting a blog post about the submissions for wallpaper for Natty
<iainfarrell> and in particular calling attention to the desire to get some drawn/ rendered ones in there
<iainfarrell> I understand from Ivanka that we may have another place to put these
<iainfarrell> that isn't Flickr
<iainfarrell> she's on US time at the moment
<iainfarrell> and has asked me to pick it up
<iainfarrell> do you know more?
<thorwil> iainfarrell: that would be http://art.ubuntu-owl.org/ , where you have to talk with doctormo
<iainfarrell> ah ha!
<iainfarrell> ok well that moves me along the chain a bit
 * thorwil thinks of clones distributed per time zone for world wide efficient collaboration. though, what clone would want to be in siberia?
<iainfarrell> thorwil: he doesn't have to be there, just on that time zone
<iainfarrell> we could lock him in a room :)
<iainfarrell> I'll look into it ;)
<coz_> good day
<darkmatter> mornin' coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy good morning
<darkmatter> coz_: how are you this morning?
<coz_> darkmatter,  not bad...could have used more sleep...more money... and an island to get away from everyone...but other than that  decent :)
<darkmatter> coz_: I here ya. I _should_ have slept, but being a year older an still alive made me giddy :P
<coz_> darkmatter,   happy birthday?  yes ?
<darkmatter> coz_: as of yesterday, indeed
<coz_> darkmatter,  well...then  a  big   Happy Birthday !!  guy :)
<darkmatter> got home from being tormented by doctors for two weeks just in time to spend the last three hours of said bday with the missus
<darkmatter> coz_: ty
<coz_> darkmatter,   damn... that must have been a pain.... but as you said... it is another year  you are still here .... :)
<darkmatter> coz_: it was a paain. one week in hospital being poked 4 times a day for blood. one week stranded half broke at my brothers getting stabbed in the same veins daily. was a joyous experience. it also proved that I'm some sorta mutant freak. lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  it proves  that you have the fortitude...and courage to deal with this   without going too far off the edge ... I respect that about you
<darkmatter> coz_: severe hemolytic anaemia with zero red blood cell production. _normal_ people would be on breathing tubes and comatose. my vitals were textbook and they couldn't figure out how I was still conscious let alone energetic. two days later on ward rounds my oncologist called me a pain in the neck xD
<coz_> darkmatter,   :)   good you are surprising and irritating the    doctors  lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  that's their job...you hired them... they have to come through :)
<darkmatter> coz_: hehe. I know. it happens frequently. "your cancer is looking good (aka seems to have halted). vitals are perfect. yada yada". 30 minutes later "holy crap! what are you, a zombie?" type reaction ;)
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> I mean, they put me through emerg for a "life threatening" complication and I felt like jogging around the block. I love my job :D
<coz_> :)
<evilvish> iainfarrell: hey, if you want someone from your team to be an admin at the artowl site too, it would be OK..
<evilvish> iainfarrell: its now a bit messy, if you want to re-organize it for submissions too that would be good.. mostly richard right? just let me know when someone registers and I can make them admin..
<iainfarrell> who is this evilvish of which you speak?! :)
<iainfarrell> I assume you're the same vish as before
<evilvish> yeah.. ;)
<iainfarrell> that didn't sound very confident ;)
<evilvish> lol!
<iainfarrell> I can put myself forward as an admin for the site from the point of view of the wallpaper submissions
<iainfarrell> but I don't have time to do a lot on there from the point of view of running it
<iainfarrell> is that what you're looking for?
<evilvish> iainfarrell: sure, just let me know the nick you've rigistered with, and i can make you admin..
<evilvish> iainfarrell: nah not running it.. the site is not very organized right now. if you wanted to arrange it better, someone form design team can do it.
<evilvish> iainfarrell: if you want to run it too tis fine ;)
<iainfarrell> heh
<iainfarrell> I'll get back to you on that evilvish ;)
<evilvish> cool..
<iainfarrell> for now though I need to eat so will catch up with you guys in a bit
<iainfarrell> and will sign up and let you know my nick
<iainfarrell> in fact evilvish I've just done it
<iainfarrell> and I'm iainfarrell
<iainfarrell> so sort me out! :)
<iainfarrell> brb
<coz_> oh yes  "evilvish "  seems more appropriate... lol
<darkmatter> hehe
<evilvish> ;p
<evilvish> iainfarrell: you have privs! ;)
<evilvish> daker: hey.. did you figure out what was wrong with the OpenID login on the site?
<evilvish> it's still not working, maybe we can remove it as an option
<daker> evilvish, i didn't really had time to look at it :s
<evilvish> daker: np.. could you do it sooner, since iainfarrell is planning on announcing it soon and if people cant login with OpenID we'd be getting comments about that â¦
<daker> ok 'ill try ã
<evilvish> daker: thanks..
<evilvish> I'm also getting "cchost.js (5): SyntaxError: unterminated regular expression literal" error when i select one of the Remixes
<daker> that sucks :s
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-12
<Whoopie> Hi, does anyone have a screenshot of the Maverick plymouth theme in a resolution of 1024x768?
<coz_> mmm
<coz_> Whoopie,   I dont ,, I am not using maverick right now
<coz_> let me google this hold on
<Whoopie> coz_: I just found a 640x480
<coz_> Whoopie,  is the theme just the Ubuntu 10.10   thing?
<Whoopie> coz_: http://wiki.ubuntuusers.de/_image?target=Plymouth%2Fubuntu-logo.png
<coz_> ah
<Whoopie> I'm searching this image in 1024x768
<coz_> let me check the theme I have here  I think its the same  hold on
<Whoopie> thanks
<coz_> Whoopie,   mm I am not finding it on  natty   hold on
<coz_> Whoopie,  nope ... I am not finding any images on natty ...o0
<Whoopie> coz_: problem seems to be that it's generated by plymouth so someone must have made a screenshot somehow.
<coz_> Whoopie,   mmm  yeah apparenlty ...
<troy_s> thorwil: Greets.
<thorwil> troy_s: hi! belated happy new year. so ... you got unto hacker news :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Yeah... silly that.
<troy_s> thorwil: A _great_ (and hoped) discussion on lwn, and a bunch of people who are, ultimately, wrong. A fellow that works in GIMP creating monochrome die(?) layouts and calls bunk on bit depth. Wow.
<troy_s> thorwil: The discussion on LWN was great.
<troy_s> thorwil: (And, despite the fact that I tried to redirect the blasted animosity, vitriol, freetard, zealot, anger, hate, flare up, emotional instability, and other detriment with the second relatively clear paragraph, it indeed happened anyways.)
<thorwil> troy_s: got mentioned on other big sites? as the quality on hacker news tends to be notably higher than what was left on your blog
<troy_s> thorwil: God... I was really torn at one point. The article has already hit 35000 views and is climbing _still_. I have fluctuated between editing comments (see a few of the toxic comments for reasoning), blocking comments, and taking the whole blog down (If the community isn't mature enough to understand what the hell I was trying to get at then really, why bother at all?)
<thorwil> ah, people like boudewijn commenting is great
<troy_s> thorwil: Thankfully the LWN article made me hold back a little.
<troy_s> thorwil: I am just _tired_ of trying to say "Yes it does matter" to someone that doesn't get it, doesn't understand it, and is immovable on the subject while simultaneously blatantly misleading an audience about why and what is at stake.
<thorwil> troy_s: whenever you think it's bad, look at comments on youtube and you will think that what you got is seventh heaven ^^
<troy_s> thorwil: Well... in this instance, I can happily ignore all of the 'freetard' inflammatory crap. Not a point of focus as those are the people that seem to think that deep colour has been in Photoshop for 20 years. And quite frankly, I am _loathe_ to discuss Photoshop because it really has _nothing_ to do with the issue.
<thorwil> troy_s: misleading kinda implies someone would follow. others will look through it or can't be helped
<troy_s> thorwil: In this case, some _do_. Why?
<troy_s> thorwil: Because the people that actually know the types of details have the knowledge at a "you can't be seriously arguing the point can you?" level.
<troy_s> thorwil: And in fact, some have valuable resources in our community.
<thorwil> "GTK is a boat anchor around the neck of any project"
<troy_s> thorwil: Yes... side tangential issue I suppose, with a pretty decent discussion there too.
<darkmatter> so lads, what is todays discussion? (I'm in no mood to scrollback :P)
<thorwil> darkmatter: we discussed not talking with people who can't be bothered to scrollback!
<troy_s> thorwil: Note that boudewijn steps up there a few points and dismantles the folks that suggest the depth doesn't matter on displays or other such rubbish.
<troy_s> thorwil: And _that_ is optimistic.
<darkmatter> troy_s: racist! ;o
<troy_s> thorwil: Also, to be fair, the same discussion happened at YCombinator.
<troy_s> thorwil: http://lwn.net/Articles/422414/ <- The bit depth discussion starts there.
<troy_s> In particular
<troy_s> Links to _incredibly_ useful samples for those that are too stubborn - such as - http://mypaint.intilinux.com/?p=19
<thorwil> http://mypaint.info/misc/8bit_vs_16bit.png is gold
<troy_s> Yes...
<troy_s> thorwil: See this is a common misconception with some of the talkers.
<troy_s> thorwil: 1) They don't have the experience. Period. They are quite simply _wrong_ and that is a tough word around Libre software.
<troy_s> thorwil: 2) They feel empowered to speak when they shouldn't. Period. The discussion goes no further with people that are, as the comments highlight, "I didn't read the article. The bit depth thing is wrong. A screen can only display 8 bits per channel. I can see bands at 25, but I can't see any at 255. The author is an idiot."
<troy_s> thorwil: And what frustrates me is that the _informed_ and _intelligent_ people in our community don't shutter them. I know that tends to be the 'feed the trolls', but by stepping up and silencing the absolute rubbish, we make progress. Things like the links boud highlights or the discussions from other informed voices.
<thorwil> i've been thinking a lot of how one would go about shutting such bs out in any kind of open collaboration website. not so much about making sure it sees correction
<thorwil> you know how a wrong statement often still lives on after it has been debunked, even in very public and complete way
<troy_s> thorwil: Exactly.
<troy_s> thorwil: Precisely.
<troy_s> thorwil: And that's ... I suppose historical?
<troy_s> thorwil: How many problems does Libre software bump into that others have already solved and encountered?
<troy_s> thorwil: And yet the efficiency of communicating that history is extremely difficult.
<troy_s> thorwil: As a parent I know the old rule that you "Can't teach anyone anything" well. It's largely true. Passive teaching without allowing someone to get there themselves is pretty ineffective.
<thorwil> stackoverflow does well in fostering quality and letting bs sink to the bottom, but i guess the career buidling aspect plays a role there, not just collecting karma as such
<troy_s> thorwil: We have made good strides (obviously logs and such or mailing lists) but the sheer size of some of it is pretty ineffective to arriving at distilled knowledge.
<troy_s> thorwil: Another good link that I've since learnt of thanks to the views... http://www.photoshopessentials.com/essentials/16-bit/page-3.php
<troy_s> thorwil: Tangent - I also don't understand how I am supposed to prepare a post for all people outside of my 300 views per day. No clue. I don't syndicate, I don't cross post, I don't do any of that and I value the folks that read the blog. I tend to write _to_ them.
<troy_s> thorwil: And yet I read plenty of comments that seems to indicate that I should somehow (*surprise*) address all audiences, all languages, and all roles. Citing bug reports? Easily translatable via Google Translator? Exploratory and explanatory investigations into things that are, by the main audience, entirely accepted and agreed upon?
<troy_s> thorwil: Learning experience to be sure. Not entirely sure what to take from all of it.
<thorwil> troy_s: you can't target an occasional flash mob audience ... why bother?
<troy_s> thorwil: Well that's exactly my point.
<troy_s> thorwil: LWN is the _only_ place that stayed on point.
<thorwil> though having stuff like that mypaint comparison right in your post as support would be great in any case
<thorwil> dinner, bbl
<troy_s> thorwil: Sure. But I didn't even know it existed.
<thorwil> *plop*
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-13
<daker> evilvish, woo http://art.ubuntu-owl.org/ is down :D
<daker> evilvish, doctormo i think it's because of the omgubuntu post ã
<evilvish> daker: fix it! ;p
<evilvish> evilvish: if doctormo aint around try poking pleia2
<evilvish> err!
<evilvish> daker: ^
<daker> ok i think it's ok now
<evilvish> daker: nope, still gives me out of memory error here..
<evilvish> anyway.. not a huge issue people are not going to be submitting right *now*m ;p
<evilvish> now*
<evilvish> most of the crowd would just be clicking to check the site
 * evilvish bbiab..
<jkprg> Hi. I'm looking for someone who can create gtk theme for me based on my graphic design. Thx
<zniavre> jkprg, do you hav a mockup or something ?
<jkprg> zniavre: not yet. I won't be difficult. rounded buttons with gradient, similar scrollbars etc.
<jkprg> zniavre: letterpress effect for text on widgets
<jkprg> zniavre: are you also UI designer?
<zniavre> i do not know what i am in fact but i know how to do a gtk theme  (without pixmap )
<zniavre> :o)
<zniavre> easier for me to see a mockup,  english is a barrier for me
<jkprg> I'm not sure if it can be without pixmap. What about iPad like theme? What's your mother tongue?
<zniavre> im french
<zniavre> i never saw an Ipad   :o(
<jkprg> ah french. my wife is a teacher in french school in prague :-)
<zniavre> :o)
<jkprg> you never saw ipad ? :-) http://www.apple.com/ipad/
<zniavre> i know it exists  of course but that's all
<zniavre> you can search about 'mac4lin' i think it's close to the osx look
<jkprg> zniavre: http://tinypic.com/r/2afyhdd/7
<zniavre>  jkprg  sorry for lag > this theme seems do-able , you should find someone who knows pixmap engine better than me
<jkprg> zniavre, ok thx
* vish changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: Channel for Community Artwork Team: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork | Mailing list: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art | Ubuntu Brand Identity Guidelines are available at: http://design.canonical.com/the-toolkit/ubuntu-brand-guidelines/ | Looking for ways to contribute to Ubuntu? Â» http://is.gd/iwunay
<charlie-tca> thorwil: ochosi was trying to get back to you about the artwork for Xubuntu. Did he get in touch with you?
<thorwil> charlie-tca: nope
<charlie-tca> hmm, now what do I do to get you two talking?
<thorwil> charlie-tca: i don't even know what the matter is. my email address is no secret :)
<charlie-tca>  Okay if I send him over here?
<charlie-tca> I don't know either.
<charlie-tca> But he has a pretty good gtk theme for Natty, and thinks you are right about the colors for wallpaper.
<thorwil> sure
 * charlie-tca is like a bouncing ball sometimes
 * thorwil -> dinner
<zniavre> good evening ubuntuartists
<thorwil> hola
<zniavre> what do you think of the "wingpanel" fashion
<kwwii> n'abend
<thorwil> zniavre: i have a bit much in my one panel, but it sure is an interesting idea, combined with the left-side wm buttons
<thorwil> though seeing it on screenshots, combined with huge docks makes it kinda silly
<coz_> I dont think I have seen this... is there a link?
<zniavre> http://www.webupd8.org/2011/01/install-wingpanel-from-ubuntu-ppa.html
<coz_> zniavre,  that thingy in the upper right corner of the screen?
<zniavre> yes
<coz_> mm
<coz_>  watching the video ..it seems like all of that can be contained in the dock...yes?  I know it does on cairo dock
<coz_> is this from the Elementary project?
<coz_> ah yes it is    duh  I should have read from that link  :)
<evilvish> could someone /topic the channel and mention what time it says for topic set "at" time? ?
<evilvish> i can see the time set as my local time, but was wondering if the time others saw was adjusted according to their local time
<coz_> * Topic for #ubuntu-artwork set by vish!~vish@ubuntu/member/vish at Thu Jan 13 12:14:21 2011
<coz_> that's not my local time
<coz_> be back later
<evilvish> hmm, thats not my time either.. o.0
<coz_> :)
<evilvish> mine says > 22:44:21 2011
<coz_> that's confusing
<coz_>  mine would be  15:50:  etc
<coz_> anyway I have to break here :)
<evilvish> kwwii: lol! i had to google "n'abend" .. i thought you were commenting words wisdom or something about wingpanel.. ;)
<evilvish> words of*
 * darkmatter lols @ wingpanel
<evilvish> darkmatter: mark would have been so happy when it saw it! ;p
<darkmatter> ;P
<evilvish> someone made windicators come true! ;p
<evilvish> err.. when he* saw it
<evilvish> ah right.. more typos than usual.. indicates.. time to hit the sack! ;)
<darkmatter> hehe
<kwwii> evilvish: hehe, german slang
<kwwii> sorry
<kwwii> just to good evening :-)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-14
<coz_> hey all
<troy_s> Greetz coz_
<coz_> troy_s,   hey guy  :)
 * darkmatter gently pats coz
<darkmatter> *_ hello
<darkmatter> after which I shoot pidgin for not respecting my keybindings
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
<darkmatter> o/
<brandonb> Hello everyone!
<coz_> hey guy
<brandonb> Hi I'm new to linux but have a lot of experience with graphic design, html, css, and php. I would love to help!
<coz_> brandonb,  cool... you may want to speak to kwwii   or troy_s   or any of the guys that have  more connections with the actual cannonical design team...  there have been requests for wallpapers  ... not sure what else is being requested or needed for the new version coming out in april
<troy_s> Uh not me.
<troy_s> At all.
<coz_> :)
<coz_> brandonb,  for get  troy_s   :)
<troy_s> brandonb: Links to your work?>
<brandonb> haha okay ;)
<coz_> brandonb,   try  kwwii     thorwill I believe his nick is
<coz_> rather those two
<coz_> brandonb,   yes do you have  any graphics  that can be seen right now?
<brandonb> Haha this looks bad. My site is down for maintenance. It's at www.brandonberinger.com. I'm updating php.
<coz_> ah ok
<brandonb> Give me a moment and let me post some onto tinypic.
<coz_> cool
<troy_s> brandonb: Don't worry... the culture is pretty immature and in fact people asking to see things is about priority 11 on a ten point scale.
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> There is the distinct sound of crickets chirping when work is presented. Blinking eyes. Tumbleweeds.
<coz_> lol
<brandonb> lol.
<troy_s> Followed by the inevitable "Well I just crawled out of a cave of hacking code but I have a pretty good bunch of thoughts on how art and design works..."
<brandonb> lol. I'm installing wine so that my wd portable hd will work.
<coz_> there needs to be a program for teaching artist to code... most problems might be solved that way
<troy_s> brandonb: that isn't good. What filesystem is on it?
<troy_s> coz_: Not really. I have a huge respect for coders and talented code artists.
<brandonb> its for mac os. It's locked by there wd smartware app.
<coz_> troy_s,  I do as well... however ..there are those that think art is "the fun part"
<troy_s> coz_: But there is a very odd thing... everyone touches art and design every day in the same way they touch software. But engaging software is one of those "right or wrong" areas and I think it is more apparent as to one's ability and value of comment.
<coz_> mm let me contemplate that for a bit
<coz_> where is darkmatter when I need him :)
<brandonb> ahhhh i'm such a noob.
<brandonb> i cant even install an app with wine
<troy_s> brandonb: Format the damn drive down to a vanilla file system and get rid of that rubbish.
<troy_s> (Once you get it off of there)
<brandonb> haha yeah I plan on it once i figure out how to get me files off.
<brandonb> here let me search my facebook
<troy_s> coz_: Do you know of this person? http://dreamsongs.com/MFASoftware.html
<coz_> looking
<brandonb> file:///media/SimpleDrive/NEW%20DOCUMENTS/Design/poster-01.jpg
<brandonb> can anyone see this
<coz_> no cant open the link
<brandonb> okay one moment
<troy_s> brandonb: That's a local link friend.
<troy_s> file:/// is a local path.
<brandonb> i understand
<brandonb> http://tinypic.com/m/dysyue/1
<brandonb> it's huge
<coz_> troy_s,  that article sounds more than reasonable
<troy_s> coz_: Fascinating character he is.
<troy_s> coz_: If you find it at all interesting, look at his other stuff. He is a PhD comp sci followed up with a MFa in poetry (of all things)
<coz_> troy_s,  mm interesting for sure... I will  look  him up... sounds quite similar to some of the developers i have spoken with at carnegie melon
<brandonb> http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=2y51IoYqNBPW3qaj6a4iMoh4l5k2TGxc
<troy_s> brandonb: Did you end up completing your degree?
<coz_> brandonb,  nice :)
<brandonb> I'm still in high school.
<troy_s> brandonb: LOL.
<coz_> brandonb,  ah  cool
<troy_s> brandonb: Sorry... never can tell.
<coz_> :)
<brandonb> thats more of my print work. I got some web work coming up in a moment.
<brandonb> don't be sorry haha.
<coz_> brandonb,  which media ...
<coz_> I assume silkscreen
<brandonb> Yeah silk screening I do a lot of mixed media work as well if you're interested with multi layer stenciling and collaging.
<coz_> brandonb,  very much... they can produce stunning results
<troy_s> brandonb: Do you have any goals for post high school?
<brandonb> I'm riding my bicycle to San Fransisco in June in benefit of Charity Water from Philadelphia where I'm currently located. Staying out there and possibly attending school or interning for green peace. Do as much traveling as people. Ride some freight trains lol.
<coz_> brandonb,   :)
<coz_> brandonb,  a philly boy
<brandonb> :)
<coz_> brandonb,  I am in pittsburgh
<brandonb> It's a great city. A good friend of mine lives in Pittsburgh an attends college.
<brandonb> http://tinypic.com/m/dysz10/1
<brandonb> http://tinypic.com/m/dysz11/1
<brandonb> http://tinypic.com/m/dysz12/1
<brandonb> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1698704556274&set=a.1554848559964.72310.1497693703
<troy_s> brandonb: Do you have a fave artist or photographer or ?
<coz_> ah I forgot my facebook login info
<brandonb> haha I'll upload to tinypic
<troy_s> coz_: I didn't. Oddly, mine is <none> at <nothing>
<coz_> :)
<brandonb> http://tinypic.com/yourhome.php
<brandonb> haha wrong link
<brandonb> http://tinypic.com/m/dysz6o/1
<brandonb> :)
<troy_s> brandonb: Acrylic hand painted?
<troy_s> brandonb: Or stencil?
<troy_s> Hrm... slight fuzz in black
<troy_s> spray bomb?
<troy_s> I'll take spray bomb.
<brandonb> stencil. I used montana spray paint.
<coz_> damn still cant see it
<brandonb> I posted a tinypic link.
<coz_> ah got it  sorry
<brandonb> it's fine im not upset.
<brandonb> :)
<coz_> I like your approach ... are you wanting to continue with art education ?
<troy_s> brandonb: I'll take +1 to coz_'s suggestion.
<brandonb> troy_s: thanks
<troy_s> brandonb: Anyone that has hammered at it like you in high school should at least consider following through.
<coz_> absolutely
<troy_s> brandonb: Don't dick around though. Look around for a school that matches your thinking. There's a wide range of thought out there from avant-garde to mainstream.
<brandonb> coz: indeed. i plan on being in school in 2011. i really need to get a change of scenery first and help others.
<coz_> brandonb,  understood
<troy_s> brandonb: Then do both.
<troy_s> brandonb: Nothing wrong with relocating and going to school. Just don't ditch out.
<brandonb> troy s: I found the perfect school for me it's very small and is located in san francisco. I've applyed and had my portfolio reviewed. I will most likely attend their in the spring possibly this fall.
<troy_s> brandonb: Say BFa.
<troy_s> brandonb: Not a tech school right
<troy_s> ?
<brandonb> Bachelor of Fine Arts indeed. A very artsy school. One of the oldest in the country. San Fransisco Art Institute. It's not affiliated with ai at all. lol. dont worry.
<troy_s> brandonb: Wonderful. Good on you. Wise choice. Avant garde methinks.
<coz_> brandonb,  and you have reviewed the out put of the students from that school?
<brandonb> coz: yes, the perfect environment. I need the fundamentals and basic principals of art. I've never taken an art class in my life. most of the students at sfai are extremely talented.
<troy_s> brandonb: Well... these parts need new blood. And blood that lives for creative stuffs. Hopefully you can find the will to stick at it.
<troy_s> brandonb: There is much to be gleaned from history. _Much_.
<troy_s> brandonb: Does it have a strong theory / history aspect?
<coz_> brandonb,  ok.. well from what I have seen ,,, you already  have a keen sense of composition  so more than luck to you... go into the world my friend and experience
<brandonb> troy s: yes. I would love to be a part of this from what I've seen wonderful and welcoming community.
<troy_s> brandonb: It's pretty uh... expansive.
<brandonb> coz: thanks you kind sir. I look forward to it
<troy_s> brandonb: It's a pretty diverse landscape.
<brandonb> troy s:i see
<troy_s> brandonb: With one consistent tone - a distinct hole in creative culture.
<coz_> :)
<coz_> brandonb,   invite me to your first one man show  :)
<brandonb> will do. that's a dream. i would love to do that and sell all the work for charity water. I've thought about but my body of work is not large enough. on day..... stay in touch!
<brandonb> invite me to see some of your work!
<troy_s> brandonb: Get to school. It's where it all starts.
<coz_> yep ^^
<brandonb> will do!
<thorwil> iainfarrell: hi! what does the release team say about 3 alternative non-photo wallpapers on the cd?
<iainfarrell> thorwil: nothing as yet
<iainfarrell> I imagine I'll be given the same amount of space
<iainfarrell> there's a good chance taht they'll be smaller than photos
<iainfarrell> but I think we'll be ok
<thorwil> ok. i'm asking as doctormo brought that up on the list and he has a point
<iainfarrell> thorwil: I'm sure it won't be a problem but I can check it out - just catching up on his mail
<iainfarrell> as I've not looked at the list today
<evilvish> iainfarrell, thorwil: it would just be along with the alternative wallpapers. doctormo's Q actually dint make sense to me though..
<iainfarrell> evilvish: he might be concerned that they'll turn around and say "three more wallpapers?! NO!"
<iainfarrell> what we're actually saying is
<iainfarrell> 3 slots in however many we get in
<evilvish> yea.
<iainfarrell> are guaranteed non photo
<evilvish> i think he got confused thinking that it would be an extra package..
<thorwil> ah right, the 3 slots from the extra wallapapers that happen anyway got lost
<darkmatter> evilvish is an extra package. purge him!
<evilvish> ;)
<thorwil> why do we end up playing chinese whispers so often, and why don't i pay more attention to the sources?
<iainfarrell> lunch time over here so I'll catch you chaps in a little while
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-15
<coz_> good day
<troy_s> coz_: Greets Coz.
<coz_> troy_s,  hey guy
<coz_> troy_s,  first time in a while I had a smile when leaving irc on this channel after speaking with brandonb  yesterday
<troy_s> coz_: Yes. I'd hope he continues on, and more importantly, returns.
<coz_> troy_s,  absolutely...
<troy_s> coz_: Trying to get a single bit of fresh blood to come to Libre software after going through education and such is likely a difficult task. One that needs some attention I think...
<coz_> troy_s,    I think I agree :)
<evilvish> thorwil: hmm, IMO, the flickr thing might also exist in the tasks.. (if we consider taking a photo a task ;p )
<evilvish> thorwil: in the sense, what is the difference between the "get involved" and "places" sections?..
<thorwil> evilvish: get involved is about communication
<evilvish> whaa??
<evilvish> right!
<evilvish> but that does not make sense! ;p
<evilvish> some of that info needs to be in "contact" header or something.
<thorwil> makes no sense to me that this wouldn't make sense to you
<evilvish> thorwil: what is the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear "get involved" ?
<thorwil> evilvish: i expect to read how i can get into contact
<evilvish> weird!
<thorwil> what do you expect in contrast?
<evilvish> well, i would expect "what/how i can get involved" and depending on the project the expectation varies
<evilvish> for an artwork, i would expect what i can do..
<evilvish> if it was for some charity, i would expect where i could donate or how i could raise awareness
<evilvish> while the latter could include steps to contact, it would also include what i could be expected to do..
<thorwil> evilvish: but communication is the deciding factor in involvement with a team
<evilvish> it depends on how it is woven into context..
<evilvish> while that section seems very oddly formatted to me..
<thorwil> evilvish: feel encouraged to improve the structure of that page :)
<evilvish> thorwil: well, noting that john redid that page.. any changes i do, would be bullying ;p
<thorwil> evilvish: great, that's what you clearly excel in ;)
 * evilvish fine with seeing less john activity.. and doesnt want to provoke john 2.0 
<thorwil> evilvish: don't be a coward. zero is the right amount of influence, so don't even think about him
<evilvish> hehe!
 * evilvish stares bewildered at doctormo, you are involved in the illustration task and you were confused about "nod from the desktop team" ;p
<evilvish> noting that very few people were even aware of the deviant group(aside from the deviant submitters), i guess we totally failed at raising awareness last time..
<thorwil> i suspect that years were spend effectively chasing away people that were really interested and there's only a trickle of newcomers
<evilvish> yea.. :(
<thorwil> most of which seem to have no idea and might require an amount of hand holding that nobody here can offer
<thorwil> and then i guess what's left regarding activities doesn't seem worthwhile to many. heck, it doesn't even seem terrible worthwhile to me
<evilvish> heh
<evilvish> well, like how ubuntu was first "no-name-yet" , maybe we should rename the artwork team to "no-purpose-yet" , maybe that might help finding a purpose;p
<thorwil> nah, the right name, currently, is clearly: "just a few wallpapers"
<evilvish> lol!
<thorwil> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2011/01/15/backtestground-0-2/
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-16
<coz_> hey all
<nysosym> hi there
<thorwil> 'lo
<darkmatter> 'ello coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
<thorwil> doctormo: hi! my backtestground ppa package doesn't install any modules, a fact i overlooked because the installed scripts worked on my system due to a little tweak here :/
<doctormo> thorwil: Do you need my help?
<thorwil> also, i thought if the setup.py doe sit right, that would be all needed
<thorwil> doctormo: yes, desperately! after figuring out so many things, this packaging business is still a mystery for me
<thorwil> doctormo: lp:backtestground/packaging
 * thorwil pushes cleaned up version he's actually working with
<doctormo> thorwil: OK, please start with clear question/request.
<doctormo> Otherwise I have to think for a bit what you mean ;-)
<thorwil> doctormo: i have a setup.py that works fine if used as such. but the package i created does not install any of modules that are in the "lib" dir of my source tree
<thorwil> doctormo: so the question is what i have to change for building a package that will install everything including the modules
<doctormo> thorwil: Your commit looks funky. there is a directory in here with versions...
<doctormo> thorwil: OK so I spot the problem
<doctormo> thorwil: You can't use packages=['lib'], packages isn't a list of directories, it's a list of packages.
<doctormo> and lib isn't a package
<thorwil> i started to suspect that, but my experiments with package_dir and packages didn't lead to useful results, so far
<doctormo> thorwil: No, that's because you don't have any packages
<doctormo> Your source code indicates that what you have is a collection of modules, no packages.
<doctormo> although they should probably be packaged into a proper set of python module packages....
<doctormo> because at the moment it's a bit of a mess.
<thorwil> i thought a package was more or less a dir with modules
<doctormo> thorwil: It is, but it's a dir with __init__.py in it as well as the namespace. Your scripts in bin don't use lib.alpha_composite they just use alpha_composite.
<doctormo> You need to make a new directory in lib, this is your namespace.
<doctormo> And make it unique
<doctormo> then add package_dir={'':'lib'} and edit all your scripts to use the correct name space.
<thorwil> doctormo: ok, thanks
<doctormo> have a look at some of the python libs I've packaged, they may give you an idea about how to organise modules and packages.
<thorwil> doctormo: uhm, would just using py_modules work, too?
<doctormo> thorwil: sort of, it will work, but you'll have the wrath of python devs on your back if you ever wanted to put it into debian or Ubuntu.
<doctormo> Because you'll be taking lots of confusing namespaces from the root global python dir.
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-01-10
<JoaoGoota> Anyone know when Radiance theme will redrawed?
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-01-12
<mang0> Heyo all, my first visit here :)
<iainfarrell> hello :)
<iainfarrell> I'm afraid it's a bit quiet in here these days
<iainfarrell> you might want to try #ubuntu-design
<iainfarrell> there's a _bit_ more chatter
#ubuntu-artwork 2013-01-10
<hiatus> I was looking in /user/share/themes and came across ambiance and radiance and noticed they were png's. I thought svg was preferred for icons since resizing
