#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-07
<mike100> I have an idea probably never thought of for your art work. It makes Ubuntu look fantastic and give you better branding.
<mike100> How do I get the art team to consider using it for the next version of Ubuntu?
<mike100> anyone there?
<mike100> Must be a room full of bots or something.
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-08
<hno73> Hello
<lukacu> hi
<hno73> are we having a meeting in #ubuntu-meeting?
<lukacu> i hope so :)
<hno73> mhz, around?
<hno73> bachler, kafeine, klepas, miketech, omeg, Tm_T: ping -- meeting?
<lukacu> damn ... nobody :(
<kafeine> mmm
<kafeine> i'm here
<kafeine> kind of planning to go to bed but
<lukacu> :)
<hno73> Hi kafeine. we were planning an artwork meeting in #ubuntu-meeting
<kafeine> now?:)
<kafeine> hi:)
<hno73> yeah, grab some coffee :)
<kafeine> well
<kafeine> ok:)
<kafeine> i'm in the #ubuntu-meeting thing now so
<kafeine> how do we proceed
<kafeine> ?
<kafeine> :D
<klepas> moin!
<lukacu> hi
<lukacu> #ubuntu-meeting 
<klepas> oh
<klepas> just getting back into swing
<lukacu> well i am just leaving to spain in a day or so :)
<klepas> what for? :)
<lukacu> oh ... visiting girlfriend who is an exchange student there
<klepas> ah, cool :)
<Tm_T> errrh
<Roberto> hi :)
<Roberto> how could i configure "Art Manager" to use art.ubuntu.com rather than art.gnome.org?
<klepas> Roberto: what's the package name of the Art Manager?
<Roberto> gnome-art
<Roberto>  /usr/lib/ruby/1.8/gnome-art/config.rb
<Roberto> i think it's here
<Roberto> i've changed XML_File=http://art.gnome.org/xml.php with art.ubuntu.com
<Roberto> uhm
<Roberto> testing...
<Roberto> it doesn't seem to work the right way
<Roberto> :(
<klepas> i'll apt-get it and have a look at it
<klepas> :)
<klepas> actually
<klepas> considering how many other packages and libraries it wants... i'd rather not
<klepas> Roberto: it must he a config file
<klepas> you cannot do it via the GUI under an options windows or the like?
<Roberto> no
<Roberto> and there is a bug at art.ubuntu.com/xml.php
<Roberto> all the url points to art.gnome.org
<Roberto> s/url points/urls point/
<klepas> thanks i'll remember than and fix it soon
<klepas> or ask someone else to do it (if i don't have access =]  )
<Roberto> :)
<Roberto> i think that miketech it's the gnome-art developer ;)
<Roberto> s/it's/is/
<Roberto> (excuse my English)
<klepas> gnome-art doesn't have anything to do with XML_File=http://art.gnome.org/xml.php 
<klepas> wait
<klepas> not that one
<klepas> art.ubuntu.com/xml.php
<klepas> i just need to find that sftp info and fix it
<Viper550> I think I may have found another good theme for Ubuntu! http://art.gnome.org/themes/metacity/1192
<Viper550> HELLO?! Anyone in here?
<mhz> http://art.gnome.org/themes/icon/1100 is more fresh set of icons, than Tango
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-09
<Tm_T> artnay: FINALLY! (yeah, code might be ugly but it works here!) http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kedubuntu-basic-03.svg
<klepas> Tm_T: looks clean and sharp (the image, heven't peaked at the xml) :)
<Tm_T> so it works, good
<Tm_T> earlier I had problem with xml
<Tm_T> now save as plain svg, read, modify, save as plain svg, read, modify back fixed the problem :p
<klepas> cool
<artnay> hey guys
<artnay> damn, I missed the meeting :(
<artnay> I've had some serious problems with all my computers (like not getting further from BIOS) 
<artnay> one lost VGA signal etc.
<klepas> hey artnay !
<artnay> and they are all broken at the moment
<artnay> hey klepas
<artnay> how was the meeting?
<klepas> hey man, been a while now
<klepas> i didn't know about it
<klepas> just sort of was on at the right time
<artnay> so did you have it?
<klepas> not much happened
<klepas> yea
<artnay> great
<artnay> well that doesn't surprise me
<artnay> at least henrik was present, that's good. I've wanted to chat with him for a while now
<artnay> I really need to get some new HW so that all computers would be functional
<artnay> klepas: so school started, eh?
<artnay> how was LCA?
<klepas> no
<klepas> that is monday
<klepas> artnay: LCA was the most fun i've had for a very, very long time
<klepas> check my blog man :)
<artnay> what about andy's icon set?
<artnay> do we something to play with?
<artnay> *insert have*
<klepas> andy is working on something as a sort of shot-off of tango
<klepas> canonical will hire more graphic artists
<klepas> especially one to do a set
<klepas> and our influence on what goes into mainstream won't change
<klepas> that doesn't mean some of our wallpapers or splashes might not make it into dapper or future releases
<klepas> they just need to be very good
<klepas> as for artwork in general we are encouraged to make and maintain art packages
<klepas> if they are good and popular enough entire packages might be included in mainstream
<klepas> that's the jist of it pretty much
<artnay> oh, really? I was told that there was plans to hire experts but nothing happened with it
<artnay> so dapper+1 then
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Evaluation/MetacityTheme
<artnay> what's the main difference between cl2 and unity-no-red? if I recall correctly, unity does not waste that much space
<artnay> but then, that goes against "the bigger the better when it comes to important functions" principle
<artnay> at least I think that the current metacity theme has too big buttons
<artnay> ...if you take account that X will not get configured correctly, you end up with terrible large metacity theme and low resolution :o
<klepas> i'm personally fond of a brown version of tango metacity
<klepas> :)
<artnay> the edge is terribly large by default
<klepas> yea, true
<klepas> but it could be fixed :)
<klepas> btw, using gnome now
<klepas> on ubuntu
<artnay> sorry guys, I'm using vista at the moment (friend's computer) and its windeco (aero black) is pretty damn decent
<artnay> much better than xp's luna
<klepas> http://wombat.nuxified.com/files/mydesktop_06-02-03.jpg
<artnay> I find this better than OS X's traffic lights. maybe because this one reflects much better when cursor goes over buttons
<artnay> what, klepas using G? :P
<klepas> artnay: read my blog... :P
<klepas> reasons are covered there
<artnay> ok
<artnay> so how was the change?
<klepas> i'm still somewhat going through it
<klepas> lots of things in gnome that really shitting me
<klepas> and kubuntu annoyed me even more
<klepas> gnome it is for a while
<artnay> so was there any word of schedule for andrew's icon set?
<artnay> hmm
<artnay> hopefully kubuntu will get more (financial and dev) focus after dapper
<klepas> i probably ought to properly explain what andy wants to do
<klepas> basically rather than make so many icon sets, each with a different colouration and such
<klepas> because it really is a lot of work
<klepas> he wants to make a sort of generic set
<artnay> I know, he explained it to me some time ago
<klepas> which can be altered really quickly
<klepas> ah, good
<artnay> sounds reasonable
<klepas> he wants to integrate it into tango
<klepas> yea
<artnay> that way just adapt ubuntu's palette to it and voila
<klepas> he didn't inform me of any timeframe
<klepas> andy is a great guy btw
<artnay> so let's assume that is not for dapper
<klepas> no
<klepas> definitely not
<artnay> damn, I'm missing words every once in a while
<klepas> canonical is hiring a graphic artists from scandinavia to do it
<artnay> why scandinavia?
<klepas> for dapper
<klepas> no idea
<jsgotangco> heh
<klepas> i guess the guy just lives there that they had in mind
<artnay> umh, they will have some really busy time
<klepas> mark didn't hint on his name
<jsgotangco> we can still make a difference with AUC
<artnay> jsgotangco: we actually should make
<klepas> well i don't really care if they want the art team to not really have any major influence on mainstream art
<artnay> that's a necessity if you ask me :o
<klepas> more work for them
<klepas> and if they or their artists bugger up not my problem
<artnay> me neither, I'd just like to see some proper plans
<klepas> yea
<klepas> i'm going to ask Jeff to re-inforce the fact that we really don't get to decide what goes into mainstream
<artnay> hmm, damn NAT. it's giving me a headache with this ssh connection
<jsgotangco> :/
* jsgotangco had a long day moving sites
<artnay> hmm, I was told something really different by two canonical devs
<artnay> so, yes, announce the facts and there will be misunderstandings
<jsgotangco> 2 different things?
<artnay> *NO*
<artnay> as I said, I'm missing words here :)
<klepas> jsgotangco: you're using gnome?
<artnay> 2 different things, yeah. you could sum that up to one thing, there really are no proper plans to be announced :(
<jsgotangco> yes
<jsgotangco> (i can switch to kde if you need something)
<klepas> ah, goodie
<klepas> nah, i've just moved to gnome
<jsgotangco> what's up?
<klepas> i'm after a good gtk rss feed aggregator
<klepas> wondering whether you could recommend some good ones :)
<artnay> liferea is my bet
<artnay> or thunderbird
<jsgotangco> im using liferea
<klepas> i dislike thunderbird
<artnay> haven't really used GTK apps for some time
<jsgotangco> i used to have blam but since since i found lifrea, i've stuck to it
<klepas> alrighty, i'll give it a go
<klepas> hey you two
<klepas> my personal suggestion is we just let canonical do their stuff
<klepas> and we'll fix this wiki so others who join the team aren't under the notion that they can directly get their work into mainstream
<klepas> and they we can produce and manage some universe art packages
<klepas> and do some work aside from that which might go into mainstream
<jsgotangco> well yes i was thinking more of cultivating community so that they'll see what we can actually do
<jsgotangco> packaging them won't be a problem
<klepas> jsgotangco: i just cba fighting what canonical, mark and others think in regards to this
<klepas> because it will mean distraction from what i want to work on
<klepas> and senseless frustration
<jsgotangco> too bad i didnt get the chance to discuss that much art stuff with mark when i had lunch with him last thursday :/
<jsgotangco> we discussed more about docs
<artnay> hmm
<jsgotangco> i dont think art has its own repository even
<jsgotangco> but that's only secondary
<artnay> I agree that wiki should be fixed
<artnay> but how? henrik made some big changes but I don't follow them
<artnay> there was this wiki page for wiki structure proposal (thanks to mhz for that)
* jsgotangco reviews it again
<artnay> for example /Artwork should be renewed (there are dupe links) but now I have no idea how to set it up
<klepas> yea
<klepas> and it should be /ArtWork
<klepas> for CamelCase purposes
<artnay> no offense but I think that the renewal of /Artwork missed the point
<artnay> I think news section is essential
<klepas> yep
<artnay> on the main page...
<klepas> i won't have time to have a look at it
<klepas> damn college begins monday
<klepas> and i've got to get this damn system working how i like it before then
<jsgotangco> what do you suggest on the wiki page i can help out with markup
<Tm_T> artnay: moin
<klepas> btw jsgotangco, liferea is really nice. cheers :)
<artnay> well my suggestion was what I set up last time
<jsgotangco> oh goodie
<artnay> I see no point in official wiki page. that one should be combined with marketing team's web button page etc.
<artnay> and separate all the logos under different /*buntuArtwork pages
<artnay> and you could navigate to those /*buntuArtwork pages though /Artwork
<artnay> and the general feedback page is kind of useless. it *should* receive so much comments that it would be hard to navigate it
<artnay> my proposal was to have a wiki page for each project. one to contain dependencies, members, current state, issues etc.
<artnay> and other one for wip artwork and comments
<artnay> it would be easier to track the comments that have something to do with projects one is interested of
<jsgotangco> UbuntuArtwork/KubuntuArtwork/etc?
<artnay> jsgotangco: UbuntuArtwork, KubuntuArtwork, EdubuntuArtwork and XubuntuArtwork for now (in order of appereance)
<artnay> but the issue was how to cover those projects that are being worked on several *buntus
<artnay> mainly UbuntuArtwork and EdubuntuArtwork as they use the same GNOME software in many cases
<artnay> so, we would have ended to /Artwork/UbuntuArtwork/Metacity etc.
<artnay> I find the current structure much harder to navigate as it hides a lot of essential information under several pages
<artnay> I consider /ArtworkTeam/Proposals to be the most important page currently, but it's hidden and the links are without explanations
<jsgotangco> hmmm xchat is locking up on me again
<artnay> mhz_dinner: 
<artnay> how's gnome-xchat anyways?
<jsgotangco> hideous in my opinion
<artnay> hey, GNOME's splash
<artnay> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=108761&page=4 - #1 and #33
<artnay> any comments on those? if the metacity theme will be rounded, how about using the third one on #1? #33 is a nice approach, try it :o
<klepas> 33 is nice
<klepas> but i doubt we have any say in the matter
<artnay> umh, isn't that against CoC? ;p
<artnay> I mean, of course we should have some input, but the decision would be made by canonical devs and mark
<artnay> and if they don't have time for that nor hired experts, who will do that?
<klepas> yea, i guess
<klepas> i might have a crack at it then after i do this splash for sweep :)
<artnay> how about background?
<asdax> hallo everybody
<artnay> hey
<asdax> i think all the pixel graphics icons should be replaced with svg in the next realese
<artnay> what's on your mind?
<asdax> if it would be possible, it is much cooler when you can scale all icons
<artnay> it's not possible in every case AFAIK
<asdax> witch case not?
<artnay> and SVGs are heavier than PNGs
<klepas> asdax: that is up to whether the underlying technology can
<artnay> but yes, I love SVGs
<klepas> not the artists
<artnay> :)
<asdax> not when they are rederd once
<asdax> :P
<asdax> but like all desktop icons
<klepas> for example Qt in KDE 4 will have full SVG support
<asdax> becouse its very nice when one can scale them (i use big icons)
<artnay> asdax: I fully agree on that
<klepas> asdax: rendering a PNG icon is easier for the computer than rendering SVGs
<asdax> but i had to replace alot of icons that where pixelbased becouse they looked so ugly when they where scaled
<artnay> yep, and it's much easier to change colours when you don't need gimp files etc.
<asdax> yes :)
<artnay> asdax: but the case is that we have no clue of the next icon set
<asdax> are you all active in the making of the graphics for the next realese of ubuntu?
<artnay> yasis is one chance
<artnay> no we're not
<asdax> oki
<asdax> i could contribute some svg graphics
<asdax> i made my own icon for the harddrive becouse that one was pixelbased
<artnay> that would be great
<artnay> yep
<asdax> where does the graphics developers hang around?
<asdax> or who to contact about such things?
<artnay> my suggestion would be to use human yasis as a base icon set and then modify it heavily
<artnay> use some tango icons, some andy's icons etc.
<jsgotangco> you mean art that comes in the distro? that's contracted outside
<asdax> oki
<jsgotangco> the tango icons need some changes
<artnay> just use ubuntu palette in those icons and add a unified reflection to all icons
<asdax> is that the one that is the default in breezer?
<jsgotangco> to match the palette
<artnay> from left above, just like tango is doing
<asdax> who is tango?
<artnay> jsgotangco: yep, I think tango is a bit too colourful
<artnay> just type "tango icon project" in your fx's address bar
<artnay> that will do it :)
<asdax> i have no tango command
<artnay> wait, I'll give you the address
<asdax> but the people in here are the onces responsible for the graphics shiped with ubuntu?
<artnay> http://tango-project.org/Tango_Icon_Gallery
<klepas> i might be off
<klepas> good night folks
<jsgotangco> night klepas 
<artnay> its license is CC-SA 2.5 which is debian takes as a free license
<jsgotangco> have a good one
<klepas> cheers
<artnay> it permits everyone to change the palette etc.
<jsgotangco> yes
<artnay> no, none of us here is responsible for what is being included in default installation
<asdax> i want to get involved alite with that
<asdax> i like to make svg graphics :)
<asdax> who are working with that then?
<artnay> sure, one thing would to form a team to be responsible for the icon set
<artnay> umh, I don't have any idea of that :o
<jsgotangco> that's contracted outside for now (especially the wallpaper)
<artnay> I don't know who did the background, who did the metacity theme etc.
<artnay> jsgotangco: which parts of DE have been outsourced?
<asdax> :P
<artnay> artwork in ubuntu to be precise
<asdax> so what are people in here doing then?
<jsgotangco> asdax, we're trying to form a team you see
<asdax> aha
<artnay> asdax: umh, tweaking their own DEs and having a chat with people interested in ubuntu artwork
<jsgotangco> and we've been trying to do that since breezy
<asdax> what is a DE?
<artnay> acronym for desktop enviroment
<artnay> damn typos
<asdax> oki
<artnay> jsgotangco: yes, but there are a few things that have been preventing people to fully contribute on ubuntu artwork
<asdax> what things?
<jsgotangco> well there's a.u.c. but its terribly tedious work for admins
<artnay> the lack of information, clear goals, disorganization
<asdax> oki
<asdax> auc? is that on organisation?
<artnay> we've been trying to get answers to our questions but haven't succeded in that
<asdax> :P
<artnay> no, it's http://art.ubuntu.com
<asdax> seems to be very much disorganisation then ;)
<artnay> AUC should be the primary web site for ubuntu artwork
<jsgotangco> silbs used to be involved but she seemed a bit busy lately
<jsgotangco> artnay, yes, me and henrik talked about moving it to moin
<artnay> jsgotangco: volvo and I have sent several mails to different people without getting replies
<asdax> oki
<jsgotangco> who?
<jsgotangco> jeff?
<artnay> and we have even /msg'd "hey, drop me a msg when you're there"
<asdax> hope the rest of the ubuntu project is better organaiset :P
<jsgotangco> asdax, define organized :)
<artnay> jsgotangco: no, not jeff. I've spoken to many devs and they have instructed to contact PR people
<asdax> :P
<jsgotangco> PR people?
<artnay> Jane*
<jsgotangco> silber?
<artnay> and W
<jsgotangco> but JaneW is a project person
<artnay> volvo sent his first mail back in july
<jsgotangco> she's not involved in development at all
<jsgotangco> she'll pass whatever info/email she gets to a dev or a community member that can give an answer
<artnay> ok, good to know
<jsgotangco> she's a really nice lady really
<artnay> asdax: many of us have contributed a way or another. the main issue is just that we haven't organized, combined our strenghts to pick the best artwork out there
<asdax> is volvo someone who use to hang around in this channel?
<jsgotangco> yes
<asdax> :P
<artnay> he is the artwork team leader
<jsgotangco> he's one of the original artwork people
<artnay> take a look at the member list
<asdax> oki
<jsgotangco> but he got into some health problems lately
<asdax> does volvo use to hang around in this channel?
<artnay> yep, he was in a surgery
<jsgotangco> and i haven't seen andy for quite a while 
<asdax> oki
<artnay>  /last volvo = no result
<artnay> excludind what we spoke :o
<asdax> dont know what excludind means :P
<asdax> sorry
<artnay> excluding
<asdax> aha
<asdax> then i think i know
<asdax> what harddrive icons do you use?
<asdax> i maybe should show you the one i made
<artnay> windows vista :(
<asdax> do you use the original?
<asdax> are you running on windows vista? (is that realesed?) :P
<artnay> actually I don't even have a working computer now
<artnay> friend's laptop
<asdax> aha
<artnay> all my three computers are broken at the moment
<artnay> I'm waiting for new HW
<artnay> that's why I missed the meeting, damn :/
<asdax> i thought vista wasnt realesed yet, but i am not that up to date with the windows world :P
<artnay> it's not
<asdax> is there hardwere errors in all 3 of your computers?
<artnay> it will most probably be released before dapper+1
<asdax> oki :P
<asdax> has it leaked out on the internet then or how did you friend got it?
<artnay> yep, one crashes even in BIOS, one doesn't send VGA signal and one doesn't even boot
<artnay> MSDN subscriber
<asdax> oki
<asdax> did you do anything special with the computers when they got strange?
<artnay> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=1600&c=3
<artnay> there's the hd icon I use
<artnay> not actually, I didn't use one for a long time
<asdax> oki
<artnay> and one just crashed after 17 days of uptime
<artnay> and since that it has kept crashing even in BIOS
<asdax> does windows vista look nice or is it as ugly as xp? :p
<artnay> I was pleasantly surprised by the changes (at least artwork changes :>)
<artnay> aero black kicks luna's ass big time
<asdax> nice screenshot, it looks alite bit mac
<asdax> what windowsmanager do you use?
<artnay> and this one has nice effects
<artnay> KWin
<asdax> oki
<asdax> never heard of
<artnay> it's KDE running there
<asdax> aha :P
<artnay> KWin is what Metacity to GNOME
<asdax> oki
<artnay> damn, now I'm starting to miss verbs as well :)
<asdax> but you dont use everything in kde, just some parts of it that is kwin then?
<artnay> KWin takes care of the windecos etc.
<jsgotangco> i gotta crash
<jsgotangco> good night
<artnay> bye
<artnay> and it was nice talking with you
<asdax> bye bye
<artnay> WM != DE
<jsgotangco> neat-o
<asdax> DE is KDE with all menys and everything and WM is just for moving the windows and so on?
<asdax> :P
<asdax> or am i wrong?
<artnay> DE includes lots of other stuff what WMs are mostly missing
<asdax> like menus?
<artnay> like file managers, music players, internet browser etc.
<artnay> look at the wikipedia, it might explain the difference
<artnay> but DEs include WMs
<asdax> oki :)
<artnay> but, umh, I have to get going
<asdax> oki, C U
<asdax> have a nice day!
<artnay> I might come back later today, depends on what will happen
<asdax> oki
<artnay> you too, hope to see you here again
<artnay> bue
<derek[] > bbl
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-10
<mhz> I have just done a wallpaper. I am at art.ubuntu.com but I have no idea how to upload it?
<mhz> Do i need to have it somewhere (URL) previously?
<mhz> Is there a way to upload it just from my HD ?
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-11
<mhz> I have just done a wallpaper. I am at art.ubuntu.com but I have no idea how to upload it?
<mhz> Do i need to have it somewhere (URL) previously?
<mhz> Is there a way to upload it just from my HD ?
<maswan> too bad this isn't allowed, otherwise it'd be a pretty neat background (with a bit of work): http://www.acc.umu.se/~maswan/util/tmp/ubuntu-earthrise.jpg
<Tm_T> what you mean by "not allowed"
<Tm_T> ah, no rights for that photo
<maswan> Tm_T: No, usage of the logo (I cut out the text)
<maswan> Tm_T: the photo is claimed to be in the public domain by the rights owner (nasa)
<Tm_T> ok
<Tm_T> interesting
<Tm_T> I rape and rip all logos as I like, someone else handle legalities =)
<maswan> heh
<maswan> http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/images11.html <- that has a blurb on top starting with "No copyright is asserted for NASA photographs." then some requests ("should give credit to NASA") and so
* Tm_T fixed new kubuntu logo, no idea if it was done legal
<maswan> dunno
<maswan> I just read http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/TrademarkPolicy/
<Tm_T> heh
<Tm_T> http://kubuntu.org/ <- still using old, dunno when riddell updates it
<Tm_T> http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kubuntu-dapper-crystal_3-360x86.png <- supposed to use this in there
<maswan> Well, if that is OK, I'd be happy to touch it up and submit it.
<maswan> Tm_T: I guess, if that logo has a more liberal license, I could do a kubuntu background. :)
<Tm_T> maswan: hum, dunno, riddell might know
<lapo> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-02-12
<derek[] > :(
<derek[] > linux doesn't seem very good for graphical work 
<derek[] > :/
<klepas> really?
* klepas is happy with it
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-05
<nysosym> hi there
<coz_> hello
<nysosym> hi coz_, how are u?
<coz_> nysosym, i am fine how about yourself:)
<nysosym> i'm fine to :D
<nysosym> do u have any problem, where i can help u? :D
<coz_> nysosym, no thanks just come in to see if there is a conversation going on
<nysosym> hehe yes :D
<nysosym> brb
<coz_> ok
<darkmatter> hiya nysosym
<nysosym> hi darkmatter :D
<nysosym> whats going on? :D
<darkmatter> working on the "live mockup" of Glory (with the MorningGlory colorscheme)... sooner I finalize everything... the sooner I can start on the engine code
<nysosym> darkmatter: nice, can is see them?
<darkmatter> well... the current "release" is kinda shoddy (imho) but people were pestering me for it
<darkmatter> one sec
<darkmatter> I'll linky
<darkmatter> nysosym, http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=52050
<darkmatter> noe... the windeco is not the themes... I'll hopefully start on the proper decorations later today... I'vealready changed the text entries, lines, and shadows/frames from what is seen there
<darkmatter> atm... I'm working on the new tabs n range n scroll n progress
<darkmatter> then I'll probably ignore the buttons for the moment and tackle the panel
<darkmatter> *now... not noe
<darkmatter> :P
<nysosym> very nice, i use it now :D
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> thank you
<coz_> darkmatter, pestering you? what kind of moron would do that ?? :)
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> coz_ tsmithe n PingunZ... thats what kind of moron xD
<darkmatter> j/k
<darkmatter> boy.. I can be soo mean sometimes
<coz_> darkmatter, oh I thought you were coing to say coz_
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> yeah... him too
<coz_> darkmatter, damn that guy what the hell is his poblem ??
<coz_> lol
<darkmatter> dunno.... maybe you should ask him;)
<coz_> darkmatter, probebly the same problems that darkmatter matter guy has :)
<darkmatter> hehe
<darkmatter> yo' coz_ wrong channel n all... but is emerald behaving with the svn on your end?
<coz_> darkmatter, in all seriousness i am reall glad youare doing this, it is nice an am looking forward to the finished product
<darkmatter> thnx
<darkmatter> :)
<coz_> darkmatter, so far it is why what is going on with yours
<nysosym> darkmatter: i didn't has the time to make a complete mockup, but i have improved some dialoges. Would u see them?
<darkmatter> the engine will be some major work... but it should be worth it
<darkmatter> coz_ graphicall bugs
<coz_> darkmatter, nvidia?
<darkmatter> button states "sticking" with some themes
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> nysosym, sure
<darkmatter> linky
<coz_> darkmatter,  may be nvidia bug in driver having problems witht hat
<coz_> ok guys i am taking a break be back later i guess darkmatter talk later :)
<nysosym> new copy dialog: http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newfilecopydialogkw8.png
<darkmatter> nysosym, looks good :)
<nysosym> new replace dialog: http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=newreplacedialogss5.png
<darkmatter> :)
<nysosym> darkmatter: that's only some improvements, that i do in a few minutes ^^
<darkmatter> :)
<darkmatter> looks great except for that inhumane human theme :P
<nysosym> ^^
<nysosym> yes, i know :D
<darkmatter> seriously.... they just butchered the ui n fried several thousand retinas with that thing
<darkmatter> my poor eyes are still recovering
<darkmatter> ;)
<darkmatter> thats one area where ubuntu is seriously lacking... the gfx department
<nysosym> darkmatter: yes, that's true, but the a stable and fast system, has a higher priority as new icon or something like that ^^
<kwwii> I question what is so bad about the human theme?
<nysosym> kwwii: the buttons are toooo big, the gloss (i think we have seen enough gloss (apple, windows ect.)), something like that
<darkmatter> nysosym, true... but they really are unrelated issues. Ubuntu just needs a more... hmmm.... I guess a more 'dedicated' art team.... *shrug*
<kwwii> nysosym: I agree that the gloss thing is getting old slowly, but at the moment, we have nothing better
<kwwii> and now we do kinda have a dedicated art team
<kwwii> *me*
<nysosym> kwwii: semi gloss is a nice thing, but difficult to render
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> even if you use semi-gloss people will see it as glossy
<kwwii> just not as glossy as before
<nysosym> hmm there are difference between semi gloss and semi gloss, important is the crown
<darkmatter> kwwii, its not balanced... the theme needs to be glossed down a bit (have the widgets at least look better against the flat bg... also needs to make better use of the available palette... the charamely, peachy, and bright orange dont really mix well
<darkmatter> makes it seem... welll... not meaning to insult anyone... but human looks gaudy and unprofessional
<kwwii> darkmatter: yes, we could improve on things, that is true
<nysosym> darkmatter: i don't think so, the human style, looks professional, but there some little issues to make them perfect.
<kwwii> I think that after the problems in edgy with artwork one of the most important things now is to enable the theme-teams to do their work so that perhaps one day in the future we can move forward with new stuff
<darkmatter> nysosym, I mean the overall feel it provides... the themes fine otherwise... a bit plastic for my tastes... but the actual designs ok
<darkmatter> but most see the interface a whole... they dont go... "ooooo... those grippers look nice" ;)
<darkmatter> but all in all human is good
<darkmatter> just need polishing
<darkmatter> *s
<kwwii> actually, the scrollbars handles is one of the things I like most
<darkmatter> kwwii, yes... the handles are well done
<kwwii> but the window decoration looks a bit old
<darkmatter> well... it is only a modded clearlooks2.. so yeah.... its been done
<nysosym> some ideas in a few minutes: http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zeichnungwn7.png
<nysosym> what do u think darkmatter :D
<kwwii> nysosym: I dig the circular desktop tool...great idea
<nysosym> thx :D
<darkmatter> nysosym, radial navigation rocks... good job
<kwwii> I did some work on ideas like this (new file interaction methods) but didn't think of using a circle like that
<nysosym> i know there are a lot improvements
<BHSPitMonkey> "prgrams. automaicly sorted in cathegorys."
<BHSPitMonkey> :D
<nysosym> and darkmatter, this would be compatible with the multitpuch screen :D
<BHSPitMonkey> reminds me of the tims
<BHSPitMonkey> and the Sims
<nysosym> BHSPit, yes, sorry i made these in a few minuts
<BHSPitMonkey> yeah
<nysosym> i improve that, mom ^^
<BHSPitMonkey> I hate when people use that term.
<BHSPitMonkey> Because I never process it the way it's intended to be processed.
<nysosym> ok, than i remove that word, sry english isn't my primary language ^^
<BHSPitMonkey> no worries
<BHSPitMonkey> I can only imagine the day when computers are just multi-touch displays, and the mouse/keyboard are obsolete
<BHSPitMonkey> I like the mouse and all... but it's just primitive at this point ^^
<nysosym> BHSPitMonkey: i think in 5 years are multitouch screen standard :D
<darkmatter> ubuntu-LCARS ;)
<BHSPitMonkey> it makes my mouth water...
<nysosym> BHSPitMonkey: yes, that's truly amazing! :D
<BHSPitMonkey> lol
<BHSPitMonkey> darkmatter, that should be a shell for linux
<darkmatter> yes
<kwwii> I actually used the lcars enlightement theme 8 years ago
<nysosym> kwwii: sure, but today we have much faster pc's we can make many more nice effects with them :D
<BHSPitMonkey> that wasn't the point, nysosym :P
<BHSPitMonkey> it was minimalistic
<nysosym> BHSPitMonkey: sure, but when i see these, i think it's very inconsistent :D http://themes.freshmeat.net/screenshots/21679/23065/
<BHSPitMonkey> lol
<kwwii> nysosym: true
<kwwii> now you just need an lcars icon theme
<kwwii> make one and then call it an accesability theme ;-)
<nysosym> yes ^^
<nysosym> re
<darkmatter> hmmm.... the nimbus icons r pretty
<darkmatter> hehe
<nysosym> nimbus?
<darkmatter> solaris nevada b56 icons
<darkmatter> from solaris's new default theme
<darkmatter> I'm testing them on ubuntu :O
<darkmatter> not all ar playing nice though... so futzing arownd with the theme to get it to comply
<nysosym> ahh cool :D
<darkmatter> its using older metaphors... just some renaming methinks
<nysosym> hehe ^^
<nysosym> i like the icons from the oxygene icons at most. Simply and not so glossy :D
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> thanks
<nysosym> kwwii: u are the developer of oxygen? O.o
<kwwii> nysosym: yepp
<kwwii> one of three core artists
<nysosym> kwwii: amazing, nice to meet u :D
<nysosym> but, there is one thing, it would be nice, to have specific mimetype icons for example a text like "mpg" inside the movie clap. :D
<kwwii> two things have held us back from that so far:
<kwwii> not sure if a normal user really cares, as long as it plays when they click
<kwwii> and including text in icons is a major no-no
<kwwii> not to mention that there are soo many icons to finish ;-)
<nysosym> kwwii: sure, but text in icons work in osx :D
<kwwii> I think that in some icons there is no way around it
<nysosym> ok, anyway i love them :D
<nysosym> which program do u use to create them?
<kwwii> inkscape
<kwwii> and sometimes illustrator
<nysosym> well, one more question, how many icons are completed? Or is that a proprietary information ;)
<kwwii> the icons are in svn :-)
<kwwii> about 700 I guess
<kwwii> we are putting them in kdelibs soon
<nysosym> kwwii: wow, i see them on svn :D
<nysosym> i should switch to kde ^^
<kwwii> lol
<darkmatter> mwahaha.... got nimbus working
<darkmatter> the gtk is way to plasticky though
<nysosym> kwwii: u are a german :)
<nysosym> my primary language ^^
<kwwii> nysosym: actually, I am not a german
<kwwii> I only play one on tv
<kwwii> I have lived in germany for 11 years though
<elkbuntu> howdy kwwii :)
<kwwii> howdy elkbuntu
<darkmatter> hmm... the gtk engine is kinda buggy with newer stuff like the slab too
<nysosym> kwwii: ok, where are u born? :)
<darkmatter> nysosym, wanna fall over laughing???
<nysosym> darkmatter: why?
<darkmatter> one sec... sreenie comming
<nysosym> ok :D
<kwwii> nysosym: usa
<nysosym> ahh very cool, i love san francisco :D
<darkmatter> http://img363.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotwo2.png <---- solbuntu
<darkmatter> eek!!!
<darkmatter> thats a scary gtk theme
<darkmatter> :P
<darkmatter> hiya klepas
<darkmatter> nysosym, you do not want to see what xchat looks like with that theme
<nysosym> darkmatter: rofl :D
<darkmatter> *shudders
<nysosym> darkmatter: sure sure :D
<darkmatter> the icons are kinda nice though
<darkmatter> nysosym, http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot1lu1.png
<darkmatter> terrifyingly busy
<darkmatter> o_o
<darkmatter> ...
<nysosym> darkmatter: ohh god, there doesn't match anything O.o...
<darkmatter> yeah... I know
<darkmatter> I just wanted to se what it looked like and errr... it looks better in the opensolaris screenshots
* darkmatter goes blind
<darkmatter> nysosym, it looks like a throwback from gtk+1
<nysosym> yes ^^
<darkmatter> circa 1999 xD
<darkmatter> but its cairo apparently
<darkmatter> eep
<darkmatter> I guess I wont dual boot nevada ;)
<nysosym> hehe :D
<nysosym> hi andreasn
<andreasn> hey nysosym
<nysosym> how are u? :D
<andreasn> just fine, overslept a bit, so I'm going to get some breakfast before I start working
<andreasn> but other than that, everything is cool
<andreasn> what about you?
<nysosym> andreasn: just the same like u :D
<darkmatter> nysosym, I'm going to see how long I can use this theme before my brain melts :P
<nysosym> darkmatter: have fun :D
<nysosym> i stop the time
<nysosym> i was a little bit bored and have created my idea with "real" windows :D
<nysosym> http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zeichnungwn5.png
<sfllaw> Hello.
<sfllaw> Is the GDM theme for Ubuntu changing for Feisty?
<kwwii> sfllaw: not very much
<kwwii> sfllaw: probably only minor artwork updates
<sfllaw> kwwii: So the Edgy one will look modern?
<kwwii> hehe, yeah, something like that
<kwwii> it will probably get a slightly different logo I guess
<sfllaw> Is there one already done up?
<sfllaw> A mockup is fine, as I need a photograph of a laptop running 7.04.
<kwwii> erm, not quite yet
<kwwii> still working on a new logo
<sfllaw> Ah.
<sfllaw> Well, then I suppose we'll have to do with the old one.
<sfllaw> Thanks.
<kwwii> sorry I couldn't help more
<sfllaw> No worries.
<kwwii> when do you need it by?
<kwwii> I might have a mockup done in a day or two
<sfllaw> End of the week, for CJA.
<sfllaw> But would it be different enough to be seen from far away?
<kwwii> no, not really that different
<sfllaw> Good.
<sfllaw> Thanks!
<troy_s> For the love of god kwwii -- round the fecking entry box area with a svg
<troy_s> We had that in edgy, and for some reason it left again
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> well, playing with xml files for gdm is probably further down on my list of things to do in the next few weeks
<nysosym> good evening :)
<troy_s> floral grunge
<coz_> evening all
<vdepizzol> hello
<coz_> vdepizzol, hey
<vdepizzol> I'm creating a new layout for ubuntu-brazil website. Any suggestion? http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/1219/ubuntuhomejn0.png
<coz_> nice colors
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-06
<coz_> i like it as so far very nice simple colorgul look easy to maneuver in
<coz_> colorful
<coz_> vdepizzol, I like it all I wold just clen up the ubuntu logo symbol the edges seem choppy
<coz_> just my opinion
<vdepizzol> coz_: thank's :)
<coz_> vdepizzol, what about the font? you didn't want to use the official ubuntu ttf?
<vdepizzol> coz_: I didn't try. I'll :)
<coz_> vdepizzol, well I like the design very much :)
<darkmatter> vdepizzol, lovely work mein freund.. it looks very nice thus far
<coz_> darkmatter, agreed
<coz_> darkmatter, but you and I are perverts so what do we know:0
<darkmatter> :P
<coz_> darkmatter, so tell be about saskatcuan not spelled ritht of course
<darkmatter> coz_ you'll like the top secret work being done on Glory... wasn't by intent, but the widget layout is picking upa few traits that I know will bring back memories
<coz_> oooo darkmatter i think i understand:)
<coz_> darkmatter, even if it is not yellow I will like  it :)
<darkmatter> well... saskatchewan is cold... has cows, wheat, potash, oil, uranium, and hotties
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> coiz_ yup... like that
<darkmatter> I just noticed the "neo <that>" traits last night
<coz_> darkmatter, I like cold, I don't eat cows I like wheat don't use postash I don'tthink . oil is ok uranium you can keep and hotties cool
<darkmatter> its not the same thing obviously... but it has a really interesting feel
<darkmatter> lol
<coz_> darkmatter, well I know you will do it well, so whatever  you have is fine with me... I am interested in your concepts and how you carry them out so i will like it icomes from one like mind
<coz_> darkmatter, what about work up there
<coz_> jobs
<darkmatter> work?? theres enough... more opportunities arising et... would be nice if I wasnt on disability... could get a half decent one
<darkmatter> not saying its exeedingly diverse employ (as in choice of career)... but its there
<coz_> darkmatter, thinking of making a run from all I have here don't be surprised if you see me up there :)
<darkmatter> lol
<vdepizzol> darkmatter: :)
<darkmatter> coz, was thinking of the thing you mentioned about my theme "how ya though it might have had yellow" thing before ya saw it
<darkmatter> dude.. that was inspiration
<darkmatter> the "morningglory" scheme is actually shifted to a base of very pale honey...
<darkmatter> kinda golden but not a yellow
<darkmatter> almost a creamy color
<coz_> darkmatter, well doesn't need to be yellow ..actually it wold be nice to see tha tin different colors come to think of it, although the yellow looked fine for be  more pastel shades would look nice also
<coz_> darkmatter, ok ifinished typing that before I read what you just typed :)
<darkmatter> glry will be the gray
<darkmatter> *glory
<coz_> oooo creamy colors are nice
<coz_> i am freezing here 7F
<darkmatter> I'm freezing too... its -22c
<darkmatter> :O
<coz_> ok now I have to do my math or google the difference beween f and c
<coz_> brb nephew dropped in
<vdepizzol> coz_: Brazilian summer here: 23C
<darkmatter> just google "f toc:
<darkmatter> bah
<darkmatter> missed em
<MayaAntz> hello
<La_PaRCa> hey guys. Quick question: What is the font used for the ubuntu strapline?
<La_PaRCa> Hey guys, does anyone know the name of the font on the ubuntu logos?
<troy_s> La_PaRCa: yes
<troy_s> ubuntu-title ttf
<troy_s> apt-cache search ubuntu title
<troy_s> sudo apt-get install ttf-ubuntu-title
<La_PaRCa> troy_s, awesome!
<La_PaRCa> thanks
<troy_s> erm
<troy_s> if you mean the font underneath
<troy_s> i believe the other one, with the tails, is modata
<troy_s> and if all else vails
<troy_s> fails
<troy_s> http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/
<troy_s> good luck :)
<La_PaRCa> ok, thanks
<La_PaRCa> doesnt seem like I can find the font for the text underneath
<BHSPitLappy> ugh
<BHSPitLappy> the Show Desktop button is so badly implemented
<BHSPitLappy> it's like the whole button itself is bitmapped in
<BHSPitLappy> when you have a transparent panel, it's the only button that doesn't go transparent with it
* darkmatter pokes klepas 
<darkmatter> ping
<kwwii> anyone know where the original files are for the usplash?
<kwwii> I wanted to try and improve on the progress bar backgrounds
<kwwii> Seveas: I am working on improving the usplash, could you explain a few things to me?
<Seveas> kwwii, sure
<Seveas> kwwii, btw, I'm making patches to mak using everything easier. I assume you only want to change the artwork and not the code?
<kwwii> Seveas: what do the *-16.png files do?
<Seveas> 16-color files
<kwwii> Seveas: yepp, only small artwork changes this time
<Seveas> used on amd64
<kwwii> Seveas: but they have a 256 colormap...funny
<Seveas> that indeed is funny
<Seveas> someone should be slapped
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> I hope to have something done by tomorrow...I'll ping you so you can have a look at what I have made
<kwwii> Seveas: one of the problems is that people seem to think that the progress bar is smaller than on the desktop. sabdfl would like to have the progress bar look exactly like the one on the desktop
<kwwii> although the pixel size is the exact same :-)
<alefteris> hi everyone! could someone point me to the upstream for the edgy/feisty gdm themes?
<kwwii> alefteris: I doubt that the gdm from ubuntu went upstream since it is distro specific
<kwwii> but if you want the sources for it, run "apt-get source ubuntu-artwork"
<alefteris> kwwii, ok that is what i did.. so the sources for the theme are kept ionly n bazzar?
<kwwii> alefteris: guess so, not sure where else they should be kept ;-)
* kwwii goes for a walk
<kwwii> bbl
<alefteris> can someone take look at this https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/feisty-gdm-themes/+bug/70829
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 70829 in edgy-gdm-themes "gdm theme should use dejavu fonts" [Low,Needs info] 
<TheSheep> troy_s: you here?
<troy_s> there you are!
<troy_s> thesheep where the hell you been?
<troy_s> tsk tsk
<troy_s> great to see you here.
<troy_s> TheSheep: ?
<TheSheep> troy_s: I don't think I will be able to help the project on regular basis :(
<TheSheep> troy_s: several other of my projects started to be alive, and I was a little busy lately
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'm sorry
<alefteris> troy_s, could you please take a look at this bug https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/feisty-gdm-themes/+bug/70829. What I need to do next to push this forward?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 70829 in edgy-gdm-themes "gdm theme should use font aliases" [Low,Needs info] 
<alefteris> you can see the differerces here http://librarian.launchpad.net/5809389/screenshot2.png and http://librarian.launchpad.net/6298458/Screenshot-FeistyVM.png
<troy_s> alefteris: Ideally
<troy_s> alefteris: "Branch" a bzr repository of the issue in question
<troy_s> as in
<troy_s> 'sudo apt-get install bzr' (if you don't already have it)
<troy_s> go to www.launchpad.net/products and find the 'product' in question
<troy_s> in this case, feisty-gdm-themes
<troy_s> click on 'code' in the left panel to get the list of branches that are available from bzr
<troy_s> click on the branch in question
<troy_s> and copy the link for use with bzr
<troy_s> in this case, it is:
<troy_s> bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu
<troy_s> oops
<troy_s> bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu my-local-feisty-gdm-themes
<troy_s> which will create a subdirectory called 'my-local-feisty-gdm-themes'
<troy_s> go into that directory, and make the changes.
<troy_s> test it (either using symlinks or trying the make which may not work if you have added files)
<troy_s> once you are certain you have fixed the issue
<troy_s> push your 'new' branch as per wiki.ubuntu.com/Bzr and register it against the bug report by selecting 'add a branch' and notify the bug listing.
<troy_s> phew.
<troy_s> basically two steps:
<troy_s>  1) branch the bzr and make your fixes
<troy_s>  2) push and update bug listing with a comment and a branch
<troy_s> that makes it easiest for daniel to merge your changes.
<troy_s> alefteris: Ok?
<troy_s> if you need further help or tutoring, just ping me.
<alefteris> troy_s, ok this seems a lot easier than the way I made a patch from the sources :)
<troy_s> it is very easy
<troy_s> the problem is, if you haven't setup bzr yet, you will need to take an additional step to set it up at launchpad
<troy_s> once you have done that, it is _very_ easy to push changes
<alefteris> when i finish, who should i contact? daniel?
<troy_s> note -- they won't take effect until one of the artwork packagers takes notice...
<troy_s> no.
<troy_s> although he is an artwork packager
<troy_s> the best bet
<troy_s> is to simply subscribe or make sure that an artwork packager is subscribed.
<alefteris> i should assign the bug to ubuntu-artwork-packagers?
<alefteris> ok thanks
<troy_s> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg
<troy_s> you could subscribe the team yes
<troy_s> that SHOULD notify them
<troy_s> but again, the formalized process is missing key players to take on the duties.
<troy_s> those folks have team access to the bzr so they can push formal changes to the main 'trunk' branch
<troy_s> kwwii has access too
<troy_s> and he is probably a good pointman now as canonical is paying his rent
<kwwii> :-)
<troy_s> there he is :)
<alefteris> hehe#
<troy_s> the bottom line though
<kwwii> just got back from my walk
<troy_s> is that you want to make it as PAINLESS for the packagers as possible
<kwwii> alefteris: are you talking about the font change in gdm?
<troy_s> which means using bzr
<alefteris> kwwii, yes
<lizardking> hi
<troy_s> then they can simply do a bzr merge
<troy_s> without farting around with pain
<lizardking> what do you are talking about?
<troy_s> bzr merge, bzr push
<troy_s> lizardking: fixing reported bugs
<kwwii> alefteris: I agree completely with you, so once it is pushed we'll use it
<alefteris> ok I do it right away
<troy_s> alefteris:  oh yes... i forgot to mention
<kwwii> if we do it before thursdasy it will be in the next herd
<lizardking> troy_s: is there new feisty artwork or is the same than edgy?
<troy_s> make sure that the 'powers that be' agree before you bother to work on something.  they will be a little more responsive now that we have kwwii handling ubuntu details.
<troy_s> lizardking: kwwii is handling that.
<troy_s> lizardking: if you are wise, you would not try to get involved as it directly involves the master of aesthetic nightmares himself -- sabdfl.
<troy_s> lizardking: but that is just my 2c.
<troy_s> lizardking: pretty sure that who_, jmak, fschoep, and others anyone else who survived his edgy endgame would agree.
<lizardking> troy_s: Last week I wrote at sabdfl asking the question of trademark
<troy_s> trademark regarding?
<kwwii> from what I understand the decision making for the default theme will stay in canonical hands at least for a little while (as he is paying for this). This doesn't mean that people cannot work on it, it just means that the direction it takes will be directly controlled by someone
<lizardking> troy_s: yes, he does not answer me yet
<kwwii> in the meantime, the plan is to make the automated theme building stuff as good/simple as possible
<troy_s> kwwii:  Practically, it means that working on it is nightmarish without design concepts and such.  Unless you value the 'throw sh*t at the wall and hope it sticks' approach.
<kwwii> so that everyone can create a theme however they like
<troy_s> lizardking: he probably wont... you have to appreciate that sabby is _damn_ busy
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, that is part of what I am trying to work out
<troy_s> and he gets about sixteen thousand emails a day.
<kwwii> lizardking: perhaps I could answer your question
<lizardking> troy_s:  yes I suppos that
<troy_s> kwwii: Problem is you can't work it out if the guy who is calling the aesthetic judgements has zero sense on the matter nor ideas on implementation strategies.
<lizardking> kwwii: I'm hearing you
<troy_s> alefteris: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BzrContributorHowto
<kwwii> troy_s: hopefully once I "prove" myself things will change in that regards
<troy_s> there is a summary of what i just described, but with different teams involved.
<troy_s> kwwii:  I don't know.  I suspect he wants a patsy, which might earn his faith, but possibly doesn't help the larger issues.
<kwwii> well, that is my fear as well ;-)
<troy_s> kwwii:  The main problem is that
<troy_s> kwwii: "art" is actually a many pronged element in an operating system -- there is implementation artwork (like icons/walls/etc) but then there is the artistry of design.
<troy_s> which is an entire other can of worms.
<troy_s> kwwii:  The true unfortunate portion of this entire puzzle is that there are some _very_ knowledgeable folks already in our midst who would at least be able to engage the concepts on a semantic level and attempt to address them in terms of future design patterns.
<troy_s> (read people like Darkmatter, TheSheep, etc.)
<lizardking> kwwii: : please Can you tell me what is the answer to my question?
<troy_s> knowledgable _and_ researched.
<troy_s> lizardking: Your question needs clarification.  What form of licensing for what?
<kwwii> lizardking: I didn't quite understand the question
<lizardking> kwwii: :ok, I mean the truoble of oransoda trademark. Kwwii tells me that he has the answer
<kwwii> troy_s: I think that until now the biggest problems have been that of simple artwork and continuity, not the bigger, more long term design issues
<kwwii> lizardking: well, you cannot use anything that is trademarked by anyone
<kwwii> lizardking: that is a major no-no, unless you have permission from those who hold the trademark
<troy_s> kwwii:  I think most people who try to get involved with ubuntu artwork seek to break off from the continuity that has been established.
<troy_s> kwwii:  Arguably, making _any_ change is a departure from continuity.
<kwwii> troy_s: yepp, we tend to get 8 differing opinions from 5 people
<troy_s> kwwii:  Currently, the continuity is nothing more than an accident that happens to meet sabdfl's liking.
<lizardking> kwwii: : ok
<troy_s> kwwii:  lol.  To say the least.
<kwwii> that is also true, probably because he doesn't have the time to lead this correctly
<troy_s> kwwii:  But the bottom line is that if the end result of all of this is to simply make the Ubuntu current look operate more effectively, I don't know how much support there is going to be in the end.
<cryingfreeman> Hi everyone, can you tell me if there are any Ubuntu slideshows, logos etc that is available for download? I need some for a presentation that I'm about to do..
<kwwii> but I think that by hiring me there is a long term plan to fix things
<kwwii> troy_s: right
<kwwii> troy_s: basically I get to start at the very bottom and build everything up again
<troy_s> kwwii:  And with a distribution such as Ubuntu, we can possibly really 'shape' interface considerations in much the same way that Novell was trying to do with little bits like SLAB etc.
<kwwii> cryingfreeman: check the wiki
<lizardking> cryingfreeman: : Do you view the Impress OpenOffice ubuntu template or examples?
<troy_s> kwwii:  Problem with 'building up' is that we are still stuck with sabdfl's fundamental direction, which is haphazard to say the least.
<troy_s> cryingfreeman do a search for DIY marketing on the wiki
<kwwii> troy_s: as I have some experience with Novell I must say that all that work is done in a closed room by 3 people
<troy_s> kwwii:  Which reminds me
<lizardking> kwwii: : It's not true open development the Novell's one, in my opinion
<troy_s> kwwii:  Can you (as a rather higher priority because I have responded to at least 20 irc and 30 email requests) attempt to get the source svg files into the bzr repos for who's ubuntu logo?
<kwwii> troy_s: oh, I can see lots of places where things can go wrong, and I know that it will be very tricky to work this out right
<cryingfreeman> lizardking: Didn't know there were any. :)
<kwwii> as even sabdfl doesn't completely understand the subject
<troy_s> kwwii:  That's fine too... my issue isn't with the process that Novell implements -- it is the fact that SOMEWHERE in the line, they are ATTEMPTING to innovate.
<cryingfreeman> Troy_s: Thanks a bundle. :) keep up the good work.
<kwwii> troy_s: is that the one that is used in edgy? I found them on the wiki
<lizardking> cryingfreeman: Yes they are there! and are quite cool. Btw I advice you to make slides with LateX Beamer ;)
<kwwii> troy_s: and then redrew them myself
<kwwii> simplifying things, etc
<troy_s> kwwii:  Obviously the 'Novell paradigm' leaves at least as much to desire as our own regarding process ;)
<troy_s> kwwii:  The source files SHOULD be in the source repository on bzr
<troy_s> as it is the 'sources'
<troy_s> with me"/
<troy_s> ?
<kwwii> ahhh, yeah, true
<troy_s> (yet another baby step to 'art and design' getting its shit together.  ;) )
<kwwii> hehe, yeah
<troy_s> we shouldn't need to crawl the wiki to get instant sources
<troy_s> hell -- that is what bzr is for :)
<kwwii> yepp, very true
<lizardking> folks I have to go studying...see U soon ok?
<kwwii> lizardking: see you soon
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, it took we quite a while to find the stuff I need
<troy_s> further, keeping up to date is far easier... (and dare I say with SVGs diff might provide detailed changes in the actual filestructure which is rather interesting)
<kwwii> and I still haven't found everything
<troy_s> kwwii:  So when you push your package, put the sources in there and simply exclude them from the build package
<troy_s> follow me?
<lizardking> Information Retrieval wants me :(.. havea nice day! bye
<kwwii> troy_s: yepp, I will do that
<troy_s> It also allows us to utilize powerful applications like imagemagick or other cmd line tools to 'break' images apart from their sources -- saving
<kwwii> Information Retrieval sounds like a part of the CIA
<troy_s> painful graphical resolution changes etc.
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> lizardking: bye friend.
<kwwii> ok, my wife and kid are waiting on me to go to dinner
<kwwii> bbl
<troy_s> see ya kwwii
<alefteris> troy_s, is there any way to remove my branch? netowork connection faild and the push was not finished.. :(
<troy_s> alefteris: just re-push
<troy_s> alefteris: To push
<troy_s> you will need to follow the instructions in wiki.ubuntu.com/Bzr
<troy_s> it will step you through publishing your ssh key
<troy_s> (not difficult)
<alefteris> its gives me an error..
<alefteris> bzr: ERROR: File exists: u'/~alefteris/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu.bug70829': mkdir failed: unable to mkdir
<troy_s> eek
<troy_s> yes...
<troy_s> you aren't choosing a good branch to push to
<troy_s> A) Have you published your SSH key?
<alefteris> yes
<troy_s> B) If you have, you should include the product and push to your local spot on the Bazaar server.
<troy_s> for example:
<troy_s> bzr push sftp://alefteris@bazaar.launchpad.net/~alefteris/feisty-gdm-themes/fontfix
<troy_s> or something like that
<troy_s> note
<troy_s> alefteris: the 'alefteris' is your Launchpad identity string.
<troy_s> i just used alefteris as an example
<troy_s> alefteris: Ok?
<alefteris> ok i show the .bug00 naming in one of the documents you told me to look, thats why i used it
<troy_s> sure...
<troy_s> that's fine too
<troy_s> but note the syntax
<troy_s> what is your lp identity?
<alefteris> alefteris
<troy_s> ok so
<troy_s> bzr push sftp://alefteris@bazaar.launchpad.net/~alefteris/feisty-gdm-themes/fix.bug70829
<troy_s> better?
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> note that you could push to ~alefteris/whateveryouwant
<troy_s> but if you include the feisty-gdm-themes in there, i think it will automatically be crosslinked from the feisty 'other branches' page.
<troy_s> follow me?
<alefteris> yes
<alefteris> ok but what happens with the .bug branch that failed? it apears in https://code.launchpad.net/feisty-gdm-themes/+branches. Can i remove it?
<troy_s> erm let me look
<troy_s> alefteris: on a side note, what did you generate your edgy vm vmplayer vmx file with?
<troy_s> https://code.launchpad.net/~alefteris/+branch/feisty-gdm-themes/ubuntu.bug70829
<alefteris> from here: http://www.easyvmx.com/
<troy_s> try heading there
<troy_s> and
<troy_s> marking the branch as abandoned
<troy_s> see if that works.
<troy_s> let me see if there is another option
<troy_s> (delete functionality is missing from bzr as of now -- it will be added soon hopefully -- until then abandoned is all you can do)
<troy_s> try marking it as abandoned and it SHOULD be removed from branch listings.
<alefteris> troy_s, what's this warning in the brarch webpage about? Launchpad could not mirror this branch at 2007-02-06 20:00:09 EET.  The error was: Not a branch: /srv/sm-ng/push-branches/00/00/0b/00/.bzr/branch/
<troy_s> yeah it means you didn't finish the push
<troy_s> as in it doesn't exist
<troy_s> so simply push something empty to it for a success
<troy_s> if you can
<troy_s> alefteris: did you get it to work ok?
<alefteris> troy_s, yeah, the warning message is gone now :)
<alefteris> very easy way to fix bugs :)
<troy_s> woo!
<troy_s> bzr is great, but still has some 'features' :)
<troy_s> the folks in #bzr are MORE than helpful.
<alefteris> but still im not sure how can someone can test the changes that he makes in his bzr branch
<alefteris> you cant build a package this way..
<alefteris> i think..
<troy_s> alefteris: The build functions
<troy_s> are written by Daniel
<troy_s> kwwii and dholbach have been reworking the artwork build process to make it better
<troy_s> that said, for now, it will build if you don't add any files -- changing existing files should still build properly.
<troy_s> standard build procedures are cd DIRECTORY
<troy_s> ./configure
<troy_s> ./make
<troy_s> erm
<troy_s> for debian it is checkinstall or whatever the hell command.
<troy_s> anyways, that will build a package and install it via dpkg
<troy_s> then you can test it.
<troy_s> if you know how to test gdms without packages, just test the code and you can skip 'building' the damn thing
<alefteris> troy_s, it would help on this was added to the wiki page..
<alefteris> i mean a section about testing before pushing the changes
<troy_s> alefteris: I would add something, but it is still up in the air.
<troy_s> Hell I had to fight like a bugger to try and get the artwork team to start using bzr...
<troy_s> at least now, it is progressing.
<troy_s> alefteris: the more you use it, the more you can help others.
<troy_s> alefteris: Build instructions are pretty simple... let me see if I can find an archived email.
<troy_s> debuild -us -uc && sudo debi
<troy_s> alefteris: That is for CURRENT build system mechanics (automake hell)
<troy_s> the new system will use python setup I believe
<alefteris> oh its the same way that i used to build from the package sources
<troy_s> alefteris: But yes... you should test them before you push them.
<troy_s> yes.
<troy_s> the difference with that command
<troy_s> is that you get a package that gets installed so you can remove it.
<troy_s> as opposed to dealing with the nightmare of tracing files
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-07
<nysosym> good mornign :D
<darkmatter> hi nysosym
<darkmatter> nysosym, jimmac updated the industrial cursors http://jimmac.musichall.cz/themes.php?skin=7
<nysosym> hi darkmatter, how are u? :D
<darkmatter> they look awesome on my gnome
<darkmatter> :)
<darkmatter> I'm ok... sick.. but alive enough to work on my themme ;)
<nysosym> wow clean and stylish, try it out :D
<darkmatter> *theme
<darkmatter> nysosym, http://jimmac.musichall.cz/weblog.php/Artwork/TangoBlender.php <--- thats slick too
<nysosym> yes, very very good :D
<nysosym> thx for info ;
<nysosym> ;)
<darkmatter> I'm going to fetch the latest devbuild sources later :D
<darkmatter> nysosym, my theme has a new overall color... it looks quite nice (though I need to soften the gradient on the tool/menu png
<lizardking> hi
<lizardking> I made a logo for OranSun theme
<troy_s> lizardking: Where is it?
<lizardking> troy_s: It is not so much
<lizardking> troy_s: http://www.flickr.com/photos/iac_lizardking/382710211/
<troy_s> I think the ubuntu font has a lot to be desired...
<troy_s> Use modata, it is far more stylish and the character spacings are far superior.
<troy_s> The ubuntu font is awkward for a number of reasons, not the least being spacing issues, tail heights, drops, etc.
<lizardking> troy_s: modata? where i find it?
<lizardking> troy_s: look at this, friend. https://answers.launchpad.net/oransoda-look/+ticket/3553
<troy_s> lizardking: look in fonts
<troy_s> i can't remember the full title
<troy_s> lizardking: MgOpen Modata is the offical name.
<lizardking> troy_s:  thanks friend!sudo aptitude install ttf-mgopen
<troy_s> lizardking: you should have it already -- I think it is in the default install.
<troy_s> lizardking: it is a far superior font.  it _should_ be the bloody ubuntu title, but instead they choose to use that kludgy looking monster.
* PingunZ adores his fonts
<lizardking> troy_s: eheheh
<troy_s> lizardking: Typeset masters are rare.  It truly is a craft like everything else.
<troy_s> PingunZ: How's things friend?
<PingunZ> troy_s, fine .. but I've got to eat now :)
<PingunZ> later
<alefteris> hi kwwii :) did you merged my branch on feisty-gdm-themes?
<kwwii> alefteris: nope, I think dholbach will do that
<alefteris> ok :)
<kwwii> I'm asking him now
<alefteris> also, is the artwork team involved with the redesign of the ubuntu website?
<kwwii> yes, it should be
<kwwii> your gdm changes will be merged soon ;-)
<alefteris> thanks
<alefteris> so there are people working on the website artwork it right now?
<kwwii> not that I know of
<kwwii> I do know that any changes need to be agreed upon by those above
<kwwii> ok, I gotta go
* kwwii is out for dinner
<PingunZ|fooood> alefteris, where can I see your gdm changes ?
<alefteris> PingunZ, https://code.launchpad.net/~alefteris/+branch/feisty-gdm-themes/fix.bug70829
<alefteris> its just a simple replacement of Bitstream Vera with the alias Sans
<PingunZ> oh
<PingunZ> hi darkmatter :)
<darkmatter> hi PingunZ
* darkmatter is working on Glory
<PingunZ> darkmatter, wohoo
<PingunZ> darkmatter, screenies ?
<darkmatter> wanna _teaser_ hehe?
<PingunZ> yeah
<darkmatter> http://img506.imageshack.us/my.php?image=teasereh2.png
<darkmatter> *hides*
* darkmatter is cruel
<darkmatter> :P
<TheSheep> doesn't look too impressisve >_<
<darkmatter> haha
<TheSheep> darkmatter: next time post a vertical gradient :)
<alefteris> i like it :)
<darkmatter> thats why its a teaser... like I'd actually show an unscaled/uncropped screenie :P
<darkmatter> TheSheep, lol
<darkmatter> alefteris, the current alpha preview build is #f4f4f4 for the bg and the overall color in the base pixmaps. I thought a nice honey-ish color would look better :)
<darkmatter> PingunZ, I started work on an actual panel (no screenies though, trying to balance the pixmaps first)
<darkmatter> it looks "buttonless"
<darkmatter> but not in the typical manner
<PingunZ> darkmatter, ok
<PingunZ> darkmatter, you what I'm going to ask ;)
<darkmatter> lol
<alefteris> darkmatter, are you talking about the website redesign? what is Glory exactly?
<PingunZ> Meet, morningglory gtk theme
<darkmatter> PingunZ, the "buttons" are basically arrows next to the list title.... kinda... only the active task has a more button like feel... now if I can just figure out how to have the pathbar use different buttons than the toolbar
<PingunZ> pixmap engine .. best theme ever
<PingunZ> alefteris, http://pingunz.googlepages.com/morningglory.jpeg
<PingunZ> alefteris, that's a mod of darkmatter's morningglory
<darkmatter> alefteris, MorningGloey is a 'live mockup' (theme)... to prototype the widget design for the engine for the Glory project
<darkmatter> *MorningGlory
<PingunZ> alefteris, http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=52050
<alefteris> like oasis?
<alefteris> it looks so flat :P
<PingunZ> it's clean
<darkmatter> hmmm.... not really... as a whole... the project is a desktop extension... the theme engine will actually be dynamic
<darkmatter> and yeah... its a wee flat atm... but its going to be staying clean.. just a little snazzier
<darkmatter> but no glassy crap... ;)
<darkmatter> PingunZ, you seen jimmacs redo of the industrial cursors yet?
<alefteris> talking about those? http://jimmac.musichall.cz/weblog.php/Artwork/SizeMatters
<darkmatter> yup
<darkmatter> nicely done too
<darkmatter> I'm currently using the black as default on my sys (gdm too)
<PingunZ> darkmatter, shush .. I'm reading :)
<darkmatter> :P
<darkmatter> reasing shmeading
<troy_s> alefteris: it is too hard to develop for the website when there is still no guiding design principle.
<troy_s> further, redoing it is a complete waste of time until such a plan is in place.
<TheSheep> troy_s: have you seen the documents about redoing gnome.org?
<troy_s> No... not yet.
<troy_s> ?
<TheSheep> troy_s: want a link? :)
<TheSheep> it's the first time I've seen such an operation
<troy_s> Sure
<troy_s> Love to see it.
<TheSheep> looking for it :/
<troy_s> damn you
<TheSheep> the live.gnome.org seems down :(
<troy_s> Its chuggy as hell... I just pulled a page or two from it a few moments ago
<TheSheep> still lodading for me >_<
<TheSheep> troy_s: well, the docs are there :)
<troy_s> Its coming slowly
<troy_s> VERY slowly
* TheSheep falls asleep
<troy_s> gnome live is REALLY chuggin
<troy_s> TheSheep: Have you looked at some of the Topaz work?
<troy_s> It is quite interesting, but again a million different things ... no 'top' level view other than the rather astute mock by jdub (Jeff Waugh)
<TheSheep> it's mostly technology showoff, right?
<troy_s> No
<troy_s> actually
<troy_s> It is actually very much like the thinking we were discussing
<troy_s> Waugh's idea of 'egoless' computing is interesting -- very much akin to what I believe for interface design --
<troy_s> get rid of the connotations of applications and sixteen thousand icons
<troy_s> and simplify it down to something like 'Read Email"
<troy_s> etc.
<TheSheep> Rasking wanted to get rid of applications entirely
<TheSheep> but what would you "sell" then? ;)
<TheSheep> Raskin
<troy_s> Well it is rather ironic that the application layer is almost heading back to the very early command line days...
<troy_s> the functionality is what is important
<troy_s> the branding is completely irrelevant.
<troy_s> Click on a piece of mail, your viewer initiates
<TheSheep> it's needed in the middle, for the transition
<troy_s> Click on an email address, your sender initiates
<TheSheep> like how you need imaginary numbers to solve some equations
<troy_s> Click on a doc, your editor intitiates.
<kwwii> hi all
<kwwii> howdy troy_s
<kwwii> so....things are a-changing
<kwwii> I do not have to run everything by mark before submitting...the only requirement is that once I submit something I have to keep working down that same path, not change things again and again in totally different directions
<troy_s> Lol
<troy_s> Wow... that's a helluva big step
<troy_s> That's great news really.
<troy_s> If a solid plan of attack can be devised.
<kwwii> yepp
<kwwii> there is little time left for feisty, but it is a step in the right direction
<troy_s> Feisty was an abortion to start with.
<troy_s> I don't think it is an issue.
<kwwii> if we can get this out the door and prove that we can get things done, then we can certainly use the time after feisty for more ambitious plans
<troy_s> kwwii:  I think the problem is that moving to a 'top down' approach is going to require a little bit of planning as well as some solid process (which we can really push forward this term)
<kwwii> very true
<troy_s> Namely getting the knowledge of bzr in place and that nightmare process of figure out how we are going to make packages buildable
<troy_s> The rest is easy
<kwwii> yepp
<troy_s> Relatively speaking of course...
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> yeah
<kwwii> the thing is that we cannot do anything really radically new since there is little time left
<troy_s> I still hold fast to the notion that as a design club, we need to identify the basic two components before we even consider the work.
<troy_s> Radical I don't think is really required.
<kwwii> I would really like to prove that we can get a solid theme done before the beta
<troy_s> Just some good solid foundation pouring... carry on from where Edgy left off...
<troy_s> Hell we have people using Bzr now, etc.
<kwwii> exactly, my idea as well
<troy_s> THAT alone was a huge step
<troy_s> And remember
<troy_s> @ paris we had exactly 17 people on the art team
<troy_s> have a look now
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> The bigger picture will require some thinking though -- as to the extent of the design
<troy_s> Is it website?
<troy_s> Packaging?
<troy_s> Etc?
<troy_s> If not, the design would be a little different
<troy_s> kwwii what are your thoughts on 'theme
<troy_s> ubuntu version 1.0 has the icons locked (plus or minus dave twiddles if paid for)
<troy_s> clearlooks window look
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> kwwii what were you thinking of for targets for the theme?
<kwwii> sorry, had to make a drink
<troy_s> yah my coffee is fricking cold.
<kwwii> I think that for now the scope of this work should stick to the OS themeing
<troy_s> kwwii -- how come the oxygen folder icon changed from the more elegant one earlier?
<kwwii> we can slowly spread our wings once we prove we can fly
<troy_s> kwwii -- the os themeing though is rather difficult to touch.
<troy_s> as we are hitch pinned by the gdm
<troy_s> etc.
<kwwii> well, we have changed that soo many times, and mainly we change it to satisfy other peoples wishes
<kwwii> I would leave the GDM almost as-is
<troy_s> kwwii -- the gdm hasn't changed since inception
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> I don't mind leaving everything
<troy_s> in fact, get rid of the wallpaper and make it a grad.
<troy_s> hell... that is banal enough to appease even the most opinionated.
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> here was what I was going to change: the usplash-improve on the progress bar, logo work; gdm-logo work; desktop splash-make it fit the desktop; desktop wallpaper
<troy_s> oh shit that reminds me
<troy_s> is there an issue with amd64 usplash?
<kwwii> there should be since the pics included are 256 colors
<troy_s> as the greyscale is stuck
<kwwii> but nobody has complained
<troy_s> Lord.
<troy_s> You are kidding?
<kwwii> nope
<kwwii> no shit
<troy_s> Goes to show you how much people really care.
<kwwii> lol, yeah
<troy_s> I really think that Who did a fantastic job on the logo
<kwwii> do you think we should set up a meeting to talk about this
<troy_s> aside from the fact that i still disagree with the rather minor issue regarding that gloss curve.
<kwwii> I do not want to change the logo, just moce it forward
<kwwii> move
<kwwii> I redrew it in inkscape and played around with making it simpler, etc.
<troy_s> possibly, but that would limit who can participate, and that seems to have problems
<troy_s> Yes
<kwwii> so, you do or do not like the curve?
<troy_s> who's svg work is nightmarish :)
<troy_s> I loved Who's logo since he presented it in brainstorming
<kwwii> you should see nuno's, it is the same stuff
<troy_s> my only thought was that to
<troy_s> effectively _really_ integrate with the rest of the 'anchors' the curve should probably span across the entire logo
<troy_s> as opposed to that rather "graceful curve to inelegant transfer curve to linear to curve"
<troy_s> more like the  default curve on all the icons.
<troy_s> So that there is a feeling of 'oneness' with the rest of the system... but I was shot down by the Ubuntu deathstar as frank would say.
<kwwii> lol
<troy_s> If you look at the folder, the warnings, etc... they all share the same curvature.
<kwwii> true
<troy_s> lower left to upper right...
<kwwii> acutally that is a good idea
<troy_s> at NO point in the entire system
<troy_s> does the curve head twisty or straight.
<kwwii> I played around with the text part more than the circular device
<troy_s> (like osx)
<troy_s> also, kwwii -- the weighting that jane posted regarding the 'grids'
<troy_s> is a little skewed
* darkmatter is back at the evil gimp/ink/blender-skaping
<troy_s> Do you remember that email?
<kwwii> yeah, that is true as well
<kwwii> it seems to me that the logos were made for one purpose, and now they want to use them for everything
<kwwii> not a very proffesional branding, if you ask me
<troy_s> Have you been plucking around with the weighting of the units?
<troy_s> Meaning
<troy_s> the weight of the logo (for centering etc)
<troy_s> and the weight of the text?
<troy_s> they seem to place the text slightly lower than the mid span of the logo
<troy_s> which is odd...
<kwwii> actually, all I played around with was using the same curve, basically, and using different gloss idea
<kwwii> s
<kwwii> one second, I'll find a link
<troy_s> and on a minor note, the side ball on the log seems to be included in the 'weight' of the centering
<kwwii> http://sincecera.de/UbuntuLogo3c.png
<troy_s> which is also not quite right-- the side ball on the logo doesn't affect the gravity of the logo, hence the center of gravity remains in the centre of the circle... not the linear divide of the size
<troy_s> looking
<troy_s> dns lookup failure
<troy_s> no sincecera.de
<kwwii> oops
<kwwii> sinecera.de/UbuntuLogo3c.png
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> works
<troy_s> hold.
<kwwii> nothing remarkable there, I think
<troy_s> u using imagemagick for montaging?
<kwwii> nope, that is one big inkscape file
<troy_s> fecking slow pull for me.
<troy_s> lord
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> well you did the one adjustment that i suggested
<troy_s> on the gloss curve
<troy_s> either A) make the curve an art nouveau style swoop
<troy_s> or b) make it a singular curve as per the icons
<troy_s> you did (a) and it is immediately more polished looking.
<kwwii> actually a curve going up might work very well
<kwwii> I like the 3rd column, bottom best
<troy_s> i don't have the whole thing yet
<troy_s> my thought was that the n curve most closely matches the icons
<troy_s> your 2nd version top row shows that nouveay style curvature...
<troy_s> nouveau
<kwwii> although the ones with the curve at the bottom look kinda like a planet is rising in the background (thought that might appeal to sabdfl)
<darkmatter> kwwii, the logo's looking good
<kwwii> the one point that sabdfl made was that many of them seem too blocky to fit with the circular device
<kwwii> it is very hard to get the same 3d effect on the circular device as on the black text
<kwwii> darkmatter: thanks :-)
<troy_s> well ignore sabdfl
<troy_s> he really is clueless
<kwwii> oh, I think he is going to let me go and see what I come up with
<troy_s> and all you will do is redo the mistake i did - end up compromising to the point of really defeating the purpose.
<troy_s> good.
<kwwii> and after he said my biggest fault in edgy kubuntu was not building the community enough I think it would be funny as shit if we did feisty as a community ;-)
<darkmatter> third from left... those are petty sharp looking
<troy_s> kwwii building a community has a bunch of issues...
<troy_s> you need to give and take
<kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, sabdfl and I both liked those better
<troy_s> as he did with savages work on the sound
<kwwii> troy_s: you don't have to tell me that ;-)
<troy_s> but the problem is that he is SOoo fucking destination oriented that he doesn't understand the value of accepting minor blobs along the way
<darkmatter> lol
<troy_s> just keep looking to the bigger picture
<troy_s> as opposed to frantically pounding away on the minor details of an icon stroke
<kwwii> somehow I think that the email I sent (the long one, responding to the community comment) somehow got through
<nysosym> hi there
<kwwii> howdy nysosym
<troy_s> the community element means also trusting that perhaps, possibly, just maybe
<darkmatter> hi nysosym
<troy_s> that there are people out there with enough intelligence and capability
<troy_s> to drive things through
<troy_s> just POSSIBLY
<troy_s> for me from those samples
<troy_s> the standout is the 3rd column 2nd from bottom i think
<kwwii> cool, so everyone agrees on the 3rd row
<troy_s> although 2nd column
<kwwii> that is good
<nysosym> what's up? :D
<kwwii> erm
<troy_s> top is probably even better in some way
<troy_s> the underlight is a nice twist
<troy_s> although i do like the refinement you did on the curve...
<kwwii> has who been around lately?
<troy_s> it is an apparently minor detail, but that logo needs to coexist against the icons and such...
<kwwii> yeah, true
<kwwii> or did he run for the hills?
<troy_s> and dropping the osx reflection attempt is also wise
<troy_s> it is just too sterotypical and cliched at this point.
<troy_s> who is studying engineering at cambridge
<kwwii> I think that something like that fits better to the circular device's 3d-ness
<troy_s> lol
<kwwii> so I'll have to fly to england and pin him down :p
<troy_s> sorry and i meant 2nd column 2nd row
<troy_s> you should use montage so you can label the bloody things you stinker
<kwwii> good point
<troy_s> montage -monitor -frame 1 -label %f *.png graphic_study.jpg
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> imagemagick rocks.
<kwwii> thanks for the command, I'd have taken a few minutes to get that right
<nysosym> what is the topic here? :D
<troy_s> hrm... that third column is interesting with the inverted grad... it is rather echoing of an eclipse
* darkmatter is on a pixmap roll :D.. must make moorreee
<kwwii> nysosym: we are talking about artwork for feisty
<troy_s> I would say keep pushing with that 3rd column 2nd from bottom direction.
<nysosym> kwwii, nice, any previews?
<troy_s> or 3rd column bottom too
<troy_s> as that again fixes the bloody curve issue
<darkmatter> Trae, yup... I agree... thats the best looking imho
<kwwii> the 3rd column bottom was sabdfl favotire
<kwwii> nysosym: http://sinecera.de/UbuntuLogo3c.png
<troy_s> kwwii: I would probably nerf the whiting on the red too -- it is pulling it heavy into pink
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, good point
<troy_s> who has a wonderful bit of colour work in the original in that regard.  an elegant mixing of lighter hues without heading into value
<kwwii> troy_s: I made a simpler version of the logo too, it appealed to me well...I'll have to find it and post something tomorrow
<troy_s> So assuming running with that
<kwwii> man, he does stuff that is sooo complicated
<troy_s> kwwii yes --
<darkmatter> the dark in the middle of the bottom one looks to glossy
<troy_s> far easier paths to get to the destination
<darkmatter> in column 3
<troy_s> but he 'sketches' in inkscape
<troy_s> hence the problems
<troy_s> i sketch on paper, scan and pull splines
<troy_s> means less complexity in the source
<kwwii> yeah
<kwwii> I sketch in inkscape too
<nysosym> kwwii, thx, i think the logo on the right sight bottom is the best :)
<kwwii> and afterwards I figure out what I did and redraw the whole thing
<troy_s> kwwii so GDM is the same (although i would suggest trying to sneak that rounded svg in for a base instead of the rectangle under the logon)
<troy_s> kwwii yeah i did that in rough (about 20 mins) and sab got all 'this is diff that is diff etc'
<troy_s> so i gave up
<troy_s> i was trying to get towards a clean code version
<kwwii> troy_s: I'll add an svg in gdm if I can figure out how without too much work
<troy_s> So lets assume final logo gets into usplash, gdm
<kwwii> those xml files are nasty
<troy_s> kwwii it is one line
<troy_s> actually, they are VERY shitty code
<troy_s> i had them totally cleaned up
<troy_s> there are worthless lines in there too
<kwwii> I haven't really looked into the gdm xml yet
<troy_s> it prevents people from fixing the bugs
<troy_s> its deadly simple... one line
<kwwii> but I know the kubuntu version is nasty
<kwwii> that is why I gave it up last time
<kwwii> I wanted to round the entry box
<troy_s> i think i have it somewhere...
<troy_s> yep
* troy_s toos.
<troy_s> tried that
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> it just fits better with the roundings on the other elements.
<troy_s> hell, look at the logo
<kwwii> and as far as the wallpaper goes, until now I have been going in the same direction as edgy, only softer
<troy_s> well unless sab is going to sign off on it
<troy_s> now
<kwwii> sure, rounded boxes are a must with the rounded font
<troy_s> you are doomed
<troy_s> just put a bloody grad in
<troy_s> even then, he will bikeshed
<kwwii> lol
<troy_s> Make the whole fecking desktop middle 18% grey
<darkmatter> lol
<troy_s> That would communicate perfect design.
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/drawing1.png is kinda the same as edgy but different
<troy_s> We could call it iKea
<troy_s> although i must say, ikea's design of late is very solid.
<kwwii> hehe
<troy_s> at least they are using organics :)
<troy_s> is this the middle ripple?
<troy_s> you might as well be shouting beep and boop at me to type to 0s and 1s
<troy_s> its SLOOOOOW
<kwwii> hrm, it is fast here
<kwwii> funny
<troy_s> TCP == Tin Can Protocol
<kwwii> ;-)
<darkmatter> just dont call Glory iKea (if I can manage to get enough done to pull a screenie today)... or ya get a big fat aero on your desktop ;)
<kwwii> darkmatter: ;-)
<troy_s> the great irony of the edgy cycle was the wall he chose in the end.
<troy_s> brutal.
<kwwii> yeah, I kinda thought anything I make would be at least as good as that
<troy_s> darkmatter: I am of the lineage that solid design and artwork makes a clear and present statement.
<darkmatter> troy, aye... I liked the aqua-ish one better
<darkmatter> it actual fit with the overall "human" look
<troy_s> darkmatter: If you can look back at a design and say "wow that looks dated" you really did your job -- as it means you clearly identified the contemporary stylings and integrated them.
<darkmatter> yup
<troy_s> kwwii:  There were probably 10 independent desktop walls that were at least as good as that or better.
<troy_s> he just didn't follow the dev
<kwwii> I can imagine
<troy_s> he decided to sit down at the last possible minute and try to steer things
<troy_s> like a fool.
<nysosym> damn so many interesting topics here, and i must go to bed in the next half hour... :-(
<troy_s> as opposed to paying close attention to the checkpoints along the way.
<troy_s> kwwii: It stalled out for me, but that was the one I saw earlier I think...
<troy_s> kwwii:  Well suited for that GDM... in fact, just go with the grads.
<troy_s> lol
<darkmatter> troy_s, its amazing how much inspiration a cursor set can be... bashing out elements atm. I think this ones going to actually hit "beta" status
<troy_s> "Ubuntu -- Welcome to the Barren Desert"
<troy_s> "Ubuntu -- The Look of 'Meh'"
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> We could design marketing phrases.
<troy_s> On a serious note, I think that is 1000000 times better than the one he chose for Edgy kwwii
<troy_s> (the one you just posted)
<darkmatter> pale honey-ish and blackish/chocolaty bits for contrast.
<troy_s> kwwii -- is that curve centre punched?
<kwwii> troy_s:  hehe, that is not hard
<troy_s> My only thought might be to slide to into Phi.
<kwwii> troy_s: not sure I know what you mean by centre punched
<troy_s> Just to give it a TEENY amount of life
<troy_s> Is it symmetrical?
<kwwii> horizonatlly yes, vertically no
<troy_s> It actually gets a lot of mileage out of the grads.
<troy_s> Try dumping the centre of gravity on vertical and horizontal phi just for a test...
<troy_s> as in
<troy_s> use yer eyeball to figure out roughly where its centre of gravity is, and plop it on 61.8%
<troy_s> see if magic hapens
<troy_s> happens
<troy_s> It looks close to phi vertically
<troy_s> try it on phi horizontal as well.
<alefteris> i like the colors iand the grads n the wallpaper but i thing the bright figure stands out to much...
<kwwii> troy_s: good idea
<kwwii> alefteris: bright figure? you mean the middle pinkish part?
<alefteris> yeas
<troy_s> kwwii:  See... LOL
<troy_s> it never fails.
<kwwii> I think that troy_s is right about moving the gradient a bit
<kwwii> hehe, yeah
<troy_s> not so much the grad
<troy_s> the curve white swoop
<troy_s> the brightest part is almost spot on phi
<kwwii> ahhh, now I get you
<troy_s> just take the centre of gravity of it (roughly now seems like it is in the middle of the horizontal) and slide it probably right(?) to 61.8
<troy_s> good old davinci
<kwwii> basically that pic is several huge circles (some with gaussian blur) on top of a simple gradient
<troy_s> kwwii on the whole, i think it is probably top notch
<troy_s> kwwii yeah it has some very interesting grads working for it.
<nysosym> i think the "wave" in the middle should have more contrast, like a fold in cloth
<troy_s> ideally you should ship the svg with the package
<nysosym> with the light from bottom right
<kwwii> I intend to ship all svgs with this stuff
<troy_s> because sab is in the dark on svg... he seems to think that the render is different on different platforms ... lol.
<kwwii> it took me hours to find things from edgy
<troy_s> kwwii I will say that if you SVG gdm, and it gets complicated, the logon time increases, which is unfortunate.
<troy_s> kwwii -- yep  -- if we can put the shit into the source files on bzr we are winning
<troy_s> by we i mean YOU  lol.
<troy_s> as you are the only authorized packager.
<kwwii> oh, I think we will still use the png files, but having an svg for reference, future work, etc. is important
<troy_s> exactly
<kwwii> lol, I am going to make dholbach package all this
<troy_s> but what i was suggesting
<troy_s> was that you actually INCLUDE the svg
<nysosym> hi andreasn
<troy_s> in the distribution
<troy_s> because if you have a massive high res monitor
<troy_s> you at least have an OPTION
<troy_s> (as are a few of the bug complaints)
<troy_s> kwwii: That wall is very evocative of a satin sheet eh?
<nysosym> yes i have here an 1920x1200 resolution and the default wallpapers look a little bit blurry :-/
<troy_s> kwwii: Just noticed it.
<troy_s> nysosym: Exactly.
<kwwii> troy_s: good point about the resolution
<troy_s> kwwii:  Well you kill four or five 'bugs' by doing that.
<kwwii> I kinda thought it looks like thighs and the pink in between
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> after I made it, that is
<nysosym> svgs use much more memory as an png, but a option to render my pngs self would be very nice :)
<troy_s> kwwii:  And you provide people with current technology at least ;)
<kwwii> since everyone else seems to see porn in everything I make, I've started looking
<troy_s> nysosym: Having the svg would give you the option
<troy_s> nysosym: technically, they shouldn't use anything
<troy_s> nysosym: Because as everywhere in gnome those svg's get rendered then pooped out.
<kwwii> people shouldn't know about what they are using
<troy_s> Once they are rendered, they are just a raw byte sequence.
<nysosym> troy_s, hmm crazy, but when i start gnome a svgs use much more time to load as the same picture in png
<troy_s> kwwii:  Now you are _really_ evolving as an artist if you start thinking like that porn statement ;)
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> nysosym: Yes... that was what I was saying
<kwwii> :D
<troy_s> nysosym: The time is the GDM going "Oh its an svg -- let's render it"
<troy_s> just like rendering a frame in blender
<troy_s> SVG is plaintext xml that is verted to a sequence of pixels.
<troy_s> So it _does_ use up cycles when you initially cache them
<kwwii> with gaussian blur it takes forever
<nysosym> ok :)
<troy_s> kwwii Yeah inkscape hasn't optimzed the blur alg yet.
<troy_s> kwwii not to mention that there are about 1600303040322 different blur algs to pick from.
<kwwii> it took me two hours to render that pic
<troy_s> ?!!!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
<kwwii> no shit
<troy_s> That's just fecked.
<kwwii> yepp
<nysosym> troy_s, another option is to have pngs in very high resolution for every aspect ratio :D
<kwwii> I thought my computer was b0rked
<troy_s> Something MUST be wrong there.
<troy_s> nysosym: Or just give out one SVG and let it render.
<kwwii> well, in the final .45 it works better/quicker
<troy_s> kwwii That's bananas.
<troy_s> kwwii yeah i was going to say, try a newer checkout.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> i know when they first put blur in it was complete bork
<kwwii> turns out, it was a known bug
<troy_s> it has been getting better and better.
<kwwii> they screwed something up and it was not clipping the unnecesary parts
<nysosym> troy_s, sure, good option for skilled peoply, but many users wan't render a new picture
<troy_s> nysosym: I meant just let the comp render it... ;)
<nysosym> troy_s, did u try xara extreme, i think it hase an awesome blurry alg. :D
<kwwii> nysosym: it would render it the first time you login and cache that pic for future use
<troy_s> nysosym: The only issue is with the initialize times.
<troy_s> kwwii: Reconciling that bloody tan against the Ubuntu default icon orange is something only a braindead zombie can fathom.
<kwwii> nysosym: xara is amazing, but it does not save svgs
<troy_s> kwwii: Xara rocks... there is an svg plugin but it isn't mature.
<troy_s> kwwii: and the fact that the cdraw lib isn't open yet.
<kwwii> yeah
<kwwii> I finally have an i386 to really run it and test it
<troy_s> kwwii: But the more i use inkscape, the more i can say that it is a pretty damn good tool.
<kwwii> it seems that they have stopped development for the time being though
<nysosym> troy_s, yes, the export in svg doesn't work, its a know bug and will be removed in the next update :)
<troy_s> kwwii: Really?
<kwwii> once you bang your head against inkscape enough it rocks
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I read something on the xara webpage
<troy_s> kwwii: I am going to show some work done in inskcape done off of a photo soon... it might surprise you.
<kwwii> saying something like "we are concentrating on the commercial version for now"
<troy_s> *sigh*
<nysosym> kwwii, no question, i love inkscape but xara is a lot faster espacially with zoomed pictures
<kwwii> heck, xara just renders much faster
<troy_s> nysosym: I think largely because it uses an optimized drawing lib.
<darkmatter> nice... that hack worked
<troy_s> nysosym: Where inkscape doesn't tweak with that to keep development working.
<troy_s> if you made a custom rendering lib change every time you made a change, it makes it pretty darn hard to keep coordinated i would think.
<kwwii> it would take hours to build and be hell to debug
<troy_s> So what else is there?
<nysosym> troy_s, sure, btw. which time do u have? :D
<troy_s> nysosym: 1:53
<troy_s> ;)
<nysosym> am or pm?
<troy_s> kwwii: Let me track down that gdm line change.
<troy_s> nysosym: PM
<kwwii> troy_s: killer, thanks man
<nysosym> troy_s, nice ^^, i have 11:00 PM :D
<troy_s> We really should clean up that fecking code but I'll leave that tweak until there are more people on the packaging team.
<troy_s> It is _very_ stinky
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> that is why I did not want to mess with it unless I know I have time
<troy_s> It is very easy to clean
<troy_s> but hell... it isn't even well commented.
<troy_s> Hrm... Maybe I'll do that tonight and ship you the changes
<troy_s> I'll bzr branch it for you and you can have a look at it.
<kwwii> troy_s:  that would be great
<troy_s> Okie?
<troy_s> Try to save you a bit of work.
<nysosym> ubuntu should have a little option to manage many timezones in the same time, like hover my clock and some defined clocks rising up :D
<troy_s> Ok... must run to pick up my girlie.
<nysosym> troy_s, have fun ;)
<troy_s> nysosym: That is about a 15 minute python applet friend ;)
<darkmatter> nysosym, hacked isolated theming for the slab and its extensions into one of the older Glory builds as a test.... sweetly enough it worked :)
<nysosym> troy_s, sure, but there is one problem, i can't write any python code :D
<kwwii> see you troy_s
<nysosym> yes troy_s have a nice day :)
<kwwii> about time for bed here
<nysosym> yes here too :D
* kwwii is afk, then bad
<nysosym> anyone knows a good texas holdem game for linux :D
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> bed
<kwwii> nysosym: nope, but if you find one, let me know
<nysosym> kwwii, i thinking on u ;)
<kwwii> ;-)
<nysosym> kwwii, see you, have a good bed time :D
<nysosym> gn8 guys!
<kwwii> yeah, see you tomorrow nysosym
<nysosym> kwwii, sure ;)
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<Linkmasta23> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-08
<Viper550> Anyone here?
<troy_s> .
<Viper550> Just got Dapper up and running on VMware Server for a little project I'm doing
<kwwii> moin
<kwwii> so...which version of the logo should I put on the usplash
<elkbuntu> kwwii, hmm?
<kwwii> elkbuntu: well, I want to put artwork in for the next herd
<kwwii> so I have to do it today
<kwwii> ;-)
<elkbuntu> kwwii, ok. what are the choices?
<kwwii> oh, I've made quite a few versions by now
<kwwii> something like 30 or so
<elkbuntu> kwwii, and i know where 0 of them are :
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/UbuntuLogo3c.png is some of them
<kwwii> not all of them are online
<elkbuntu> im partial to the third or fourth in the first column
<elkbuntu> errr. fourth or fifth
<elkbuntu> sorry
<kwwii> ;-)
<elkbuntu> fifth is easiest on the eyes amidst the busyness, but the fourth is more realistic
<Madpilot> kwwii, I like the one right in the middle - 3rd down, 2nd column
<Madpilot> most of the 1st column look muddy or blurry, somehow
<elkbuntu> Madpilot, yeah, except the white outer blur on black aches my eyes
<Madpilot> elkbuntu, they've all got that
<kwwii> elkbuntu: I am afraid that I will have to use some kind of blur, as changing the color of the text to grey is not really acceptable
* elkbuntu pouts
<elkbuntu> oh, and s/white/grey/
<elkbuntu> the white blur is better than the grey blur..
<elkbuntu> col3 row3 is good, would be better with slight mirror effect
<kwwii> that is the one I am working on now
<kwwii> note that this does not have to be final now, just a first version
<elkbuntu> yep. but drastic changes will peeve people
<Madpilot> peeving people with artwork changes is not always a bad thing - it gets attention ;)
<elkbuntu> Madpilot, considering the 'controversy' surrounding edgy's artwork, it wouldnt be the wisest thing for ubuntu right now
<elkbuntu> kwwii, although, your ambit methods have worked for you in the past ;)
<kwwii> well, once I include something it will stay in that direction
<kwwii> I won't completely change it again
<elkbuntu> kwwii, do you have an idea of where the desktop art is going? keeping the same style throughout the whole distro would be nice
<kwwii> sure, that would be very nice, but a lot of work
* elkbuntu mumbles something about earning keep :
<BHSPitMonkey> I like c2r3, and c3r1
<kwwii> I've only been working for canonical for two and half weeks now ;-)
<BHSPitMonkey> and c3r2
<BHSPitMonkey> although I know the gloss is going to meet opposition with a lot of design zealots
<BHSPitMonkey> (I personally don't have anything against it; I like it.  Though, I see why some hate having it embellished.
<BHSPitMonkey> ...)
<elkbuntu> BHSPitMonkey, in all honesty, it is the flavor of the month
<BHSPitMonkey> s/the month/2006/    ;)
<BHSPitMonkey> but yeah
<elkbuntu> BHSPitMonkey, s/2006/2006-2007/
<elkbuntu> half year sees in 2007-2008 ;)
* BHSPitMonkey gets ready for another round of gloss
<kwwii> as there is little time I have basically tried to evolve the artwork from edgy
<BHSPitMonkey> I like Vista's appearance a lot... but I don't/won't use the Vista looks in linux
<BHSPitMonkey> The very fact that it's Windows repels me from the otherwise likable design :/
* elkbuntu is yet to even SEE vista first-hand
<BHSPitMonkey> I haven't seen it firsthand, either
<BHSPitMonkey> but screenshots / screenvids do enough
<elkbuntu> BHSPitMonkey, heh, i've avoided those like the plague
<BHSPitMonkey> Aw, earlier today I saw a video on youtube, of someone playing with Beryl on Ubuntu with a touchscreen monitor :D
<BHSPitMonkey> It was... tingly feelings... I...
<elkbuntu> that would be fun
<BHSPitMonkey> it was configured so that dragging on the desktop rotated the cube
<BHSPitMonkey> he just tossed it around, and wobbled windows at his pleasure
<elkbuntu> that would be annoying
<BHSPitMonkey> well
<BHSPitMonkey> I dunno how it was configured, because later he drew a selection box around some icons.
<BHSPitMonkey> maybe he had some kind of double-click or gestural setup
<BHSPitMonkey> but the ease with which he just tossed the cube around, and manipulated windows
<BHSPitMonkey> I can't wait for Multitouch + Eye Candy + Linux
<nysosym> hi there
<andreasn> hey nysosym
<nysosym> hi andreasnd :)
<nysosym> hi BHSPitLappy :)
<BHSPitMonkey_> hi
<BHSPitMonkey_> bedtime for me.
<nysosym> good night :)
<lizardking_> Hi
<lizardking_> I put online new repository for OranSun, because Daniel's repo does not handle the new changes.
<lizardking_>   deb http://www.iacopomasi.net/repo ./  here is the repo
<lizardking_> here is the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/OranSun
<alefteris> hi, everyone! I have notised that for some icons in the ubuntu-icons theme the coresponting svgs are missing.. why is that?
<kwwii> alefteris: probably because they were made by someone who did not give up svgs
<alefteris> kwwii, I made one (it was rather simple, Im not an artist..), can i put it in a seperate branch so that it can be included?
<kwwii> alefteris: you mean you made an svg of an existing icon or you made a new icon?
<alefteris> i made a new svg based on another one, so that there is a scalaple version of the information-dialog icon
<alefteris> just needed to make one for an ubuntu drupal theme :)
<kwwii> sure, make a branch...the only thing to note is that it needs to be of good enough quality to include (ie it cannot look very different from the icon it is supposed to represent)
<kwwii> or if it does look different it has to be good enough to replace the other pixmap based icon
<kwwii> most likely the icons without svgs were paid for
<alefteris> kwwii, the icons tha exists already is 16x16, and the svg that i made can produse a good icon for that size i supose
<kwwii> I am not trying to be negative, just trying to avoid promising to include something that I haven't seen yet ;-)
<alefteris> can't produse
<kwwii> usually you have to make a seperate svg at a smaller size for the smaller icons
<alefteris> kwwii, anyway its nothing.. in the time that i spent talking to you you could have made 10 of them..
<kwwii> making the lines and forms line up on the raster
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> alefteris: make a branch and post it
<alefteris> i just ask if it is ok, i dont care if it is cona be included
<kwwii> or post it and then make a branch
<kwwii> oh, it is totally ok to make a branch
<alefteris> kwwii, also when someone makes a branch, only tha changes are saved actually in the server?
<kwwii> alefteris: yes, Iif I understand bzr right that is how it works
<kwwii> s/lif/if
<kwwii> I am still somewhat new to this stuff too ;-)
<alefteris> ok i asked because every time i push, it takes so much time.. maybe it aploads everything and then checks the differences on the server and saves them..
<kwwii> yeah, probably
<kwwii> i noticed that it is slow too
<alefteris> also, the themes that are used for the website (moin, planet, forum themes) would be nice if they where available as a lanchpad product
<alefteris> so that people can use them for the loco websites and possibly impove them
<alefteris> I'm planing to do this for the drupal v5 theme that Im making..
<kwwii> alefteris: that is a very good point
<kwwii> not sure who to talk to about that though
<kwwii> perhaps I can find out
<alefteris> yeah, that would be great, its one of the thing that are asked all the time by the new loco teams and It hard to get hold of those resorses.. I managed to find some by themes that other teams have made.. and they have little differences from the ones used in ubuntu.com
<alefteris> if they are in bazaar they can be updated for new versions of the themes engines.. for example the ubuntu moinmoin theme that I have found had some issues with new versions of moin..
<kwwii> I'll try to find out about this stuff...have a meeting in a few minutes though
<alefteris> ok
<alefteris> http://www.ubuntu-gr.org/Wiki/Community/Marketing/ einai to tmhma sto wiki mas gia to marketing..
<alefteris> sorry, wrong channel :)
<troy_s> kwwii
<kwwii> howdy troy_s
<troy_s> how goes things bro?
<kwwii> pretty well, waiting for inkscape to render this darn wallpaper
<troy_s> wtf is my ghost still doing idling around... grr.
<troy_s> ahh good.
<kwwii> 3:15 minutes now
<troy_s> that's a lot of objects apparently
<kwwii> actually only 5
<troy_s> something is borked... just blurs????
<kwwii> blurs
<kwwii> the blur combined with gradients and transparency seems to suck
<troy_s> wow... i have one that is entirely custom shapes and blurs and it doesn't take that long.
<troy_s> ah.
<troy_s> that is probably it...
<kwwii> once it is done I'll upload a branch
<troy_s> i bet it is the trans and blur
<kwwii> anyway...time to cook dinner
<kwwii> don't want my son to go hungry ;-)
<kwwii> be back in a while
<kwwii> also, I included a first version of the usplash today
<troy_s> aight
<troy_s> did you get the compile done for amd64 too?
<kwwii> changed the bg and the bg of the progress bar (not too sure about that though)
<kwwii> yeah, they fixed the amd64 stuff
<kwwii> so it works with the normal graphics
<troy_s> i downed the sources from the gdm i repaired...
<kwwii> cool
<troy_s> i'll have a branch pushed for you soon, but i am going to have a day of work today i think.
<kwwii> hehe, no problem
<troy_s> not that i really feel like it, but i think i have committed.
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> ok, gotta run, be back in a bit
<troy_s> aye
<troy_s> CRAP
<troy_s> kwwii
<troy_s> kwwii check out Donn's application icon.  We have some talent in the crew.
<nysosym> hi there
<nysosym> i see usplash has an update, with new graphics, which graphics are new? I can't install feisty... :-/
<nysosym> wb PseudoPlacebo
<PseudoPlacebo> Thanks.
<PseudoPlacebo> =] 
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> sorry that took so long
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I saw that icon he made
<kwwii> although he is probably a better graphic artist than icon designer at this time
<kwwii> but that is something one can learn ;-)
<kwwii> if the talent is there
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-09
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!  "While hackers can be very good at designing interfaces for other hackers, they tend to be poor at modeling the thought processes of the other 95% of the population well enough to write interfaces that J. Random End-User and his Aunt Tillie will pay to buy."  Eric S. Raymond, 1999
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<troy_s> anyone in?
<troy_s> Does anyone know if UIML is a target of discussion in KDE or GNOME circles?
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-10
<nysosym> hi there
<coz_> evening all
<darkmatter> yo' coz_
<coz_> darkmatter, hey guy
<coz_> just readin gup on the ubuntu/linspire get together
<darkmatter> ahhh
<darkmatter> still a hot topic, eh????
<coz_> well for me it will be... I expected this from way back not linspire in particular but that cononical is a business that nees to move on so
<darkmatter> aye
<coz_> my nephew refuses to use ubntu because it is too corporate based as it is and he is gnu oriented solely so ubuntu is out the iwnodw for him
<darkmatter> but linspire aint that bad to be honest... ans basing the new releases on ubuntu is a good thing
<darkmatter> coz_, lol.
<coz_> darkmatter, yeah thats fine but the CNR from linspire to ubuntu is not my preference
<darkmatter> I'm not going to even comment on the whole gnu thing... I think I've beat that with a stick before
<darkmatter> coz, even if they do... its not the same cnr
<coz_> darkmatter,  things like gnu are not tstuff I get attached to but I am concerened bout the cnr into ubuntu
<coz_> well still it iwl be there like slab
<coz_> i was looking at linux mint and wondering if it will be able to use beryl easily
<darkmatter> as in one you subscribe to.. the other (the portable to distros like ubuntu/suse/etc) is FREE
<darkmatter> including the repos
<darkmatter> more need to read the fine print :)
<darkmatter> mint??? ewww
<darkmatter> mint like uses the broken usp thingy...
<darkmatter> o_o
<coz_> darkmatter, well for me ubuntu has taken second place to beryl so I am more concerendd when i switch from ubuntu which linux is going to run beryl best
<darkmatter> bah... beryl is a shoddy hack.... compiz is better... not as rich useless crap.. but its a sacrifice I'm willing to make :P
<darkmatter> *in
<coz_> i see your name on one of the beryl themes darkvista something
<darkmatter> yeah... because I theme
<darkmatter> doesnt mean I actually use it on a daily basis... always preferred compiz
<coz_> darkmatter,  well beryl is fro me not compiz and quinn storm is like 20 minutes from me so i think i will stick with beryl
<darkmatter> coz_ whatever works
<coz_> yep
<coz_> well its more like loylaty at this point
<darkmatter> meh.. I dont do the loyalty dance anymore when it comes to the foss world... last time I did that my loyalty was betrayed *shrug*
<darkmatter> so now I'll just look after mine own interests xD
<coz_> what I think i will do is pull out of most things associated with ubuntu from now on... I don't like the political atmosphere  since last summer and I don't want to waiste my artistic abilities on someting that is offensive to me
<coz_> I mean ubuntu
<coz_> Ithink i will start pulling away from it
<klepas> darkmatter: http://njpatel.blogspot.com/2007/02/while-i-have-your-attention_07.html
<darkmatter> *shrug*, I'd just go back to slack... but dont wanna spend that much time setting up
<darkmatter> and gentoos for ricers :P
<darkmatter> klepas, saw that alreafy... debated as to how much it sucks already ;)
<klepas> sucks?
<klepas> there are some neat things there
<darkmatter> not really
<darkmatter> every last one has been done to death... the guy just (poorly) bastardized previous stuff
<darkmatter> all I see is macistanux
<darkmatter> correction... more importantly
<darkmatter> all I see is another computer centric user interface instead of a user centric computer interface
<darkmatter> dated to say the least... granted,,, the fella has the ability to gimp/scape gfx
<darkmatter> but that doesnt make one a designer
<klepas> i like some of the ideas
<klepas> and the fact it's purdy wins over hearts and minds
<klepas> but there are issues
<darkmatter> issues a plenty
<kwwii> moin
<elkbuntu> moin Mr Wimer
<kwwii> howdy elkbuntu
<kwwii> I finally figured out what the ubuntu login sound remdinds me of....the tikibar intro music
<elkbuntu> heh
<kwwii> how in the heck does one install compiz themes?
<elkbuntu> kwwii, no freaking idea
<kwwii> ;-)
<BHSPitMonkey> :)
<klepas> moin darkmatter
<darkmatter> hi klepas
<klepas> what's doin?
<darkmatter> klepas... not doin much really... just waiting fer my brainkillin' dose of cold meds to kick in so I can fall asleep
* darkmatter is ghastly ill atm
<klepas> darkmatter: sucks
<darkmatter> klepas, yeah... I'm only at the puter for relatively short amounts of time.... so no time to work...
<klepas> :(
<klepas> bbs; drink with mum
<klepas> back
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> howdy klepas
* kwwii gets to go grocery shopping - what fun being married
<klepas> hey kwwii :)
<troy_s> kwwii you in?
<troy_s> greets coz_
<coz_> troy_s, hey guy
<troy_s> open up the bikeshed flood
<troy_s> kwwii
<troy_s> ping
<kwwii> troy_s: pong, but not for long ;-)
<kwwii> going for a beer with a friend
<kwwii> troy_s: I'll be back in about two hours
<troy_s> kwwii sure
<troy_s> chat then
<kwwii> cool, see you
<nysosym> hi there :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-02-11
<troy_s> What now.
<Schalken> where is all the feisty artwork in the wiki?
<troy_s> It isn't.
<Schalken> is it anywhere?
<troy_s> No.
<Schalken> humph :\
<troy_s> Well aside from running a chroot, vmware-player, or like ap.
<troy_s> Why do you want it?
<Schalken> just wanted to see how it was going
<Schalken> if at all
<troy_s> It is pretty much done, with some small movements along the way I am sure.
<Schalken> is there a place i can see? (other than by upgrading)
<troy_s> Probably not.
<troy_s> Use vmwareplayer
<troy_s> It is relatively painless...
<troy_s> Seeing it isn't a huge deal though.
<troy_s> As (thankfully) the opinions won't matter.
<troy_s> Otherwise it just opens up a silly bikeshed of silly opinions.
<Schalken> well im actually in opensuse atm
<troy_s> Great.  Then don't worry about it.
<Schalken> lol
<kwwii> troy_s: hey man, fell asleep, sorry
<kwwii> I guess it is high time for me to send an email to the list ;-)
<kwwii> woke up after having bad dreams..my mind knows when "I've got mail" it seems
<kwwii> troy_s: I'm putting an email together for the art list - will send it tomorrow morning
<troy_s> kwwii sure...
<troy_s> it doesn't really matter
<troy_s> it's not like it is up for discussion etc...
<kwwii> actually, i want it to be
<kwwii> it is up for discussion within bounds
<kwwii> that would help us prove how usefull we can be
<kwwii> anyway, going on 2am here
<kwwii> time for sleep (again)
<troy_s> kwwii I see your point.
<troy_s> Problem is, it can open up a can of bikeshed that is really worthless, unless you lay in some serious
<troy_s> and I mean _serious_ ground rules.
<kwwii> well, that is why I want to start writing an email today and send it tomorrow :p
<kwwii> (and ask the opinions of you and other in the know first)
<troy_s> Did you make a decision on palette concepts yet?
<troy_s> I think we could do a 'hunt and gather' the stinky colours in the icons presently, which is far from ideal but...
<kwwii> I've been playing around with them...not sure exactly in which direction to go yet
<troy_s> Yeah ok...
<troy_s> If you make a decision, it might be nice to actually bring the icons into line...
<kwwii> definitely
<troy_s> (assuming you keep the tan as the root, i am pretty sure we could find a tone that works that is close to the existing colours...)
<troy_s> a very easy project really, assuming you can figure out a palette base you like.
<kwwii> yeah, I think the tan is pretty much default now
<troy_s> Well yah... I am not suggesting dumping the tan
<troy_s> But as you could see, you have quite a few options
<kwwii> well, part of this was a discussion that I started with Jane about how much we can change the official logo colors for use on screen
<troy_s> even within locking the tan as say, a 60% 'feel' color
<kwwii> trying to cover my ass before I leap
<troy_s> Jane is rather useless
<troy_s> considering that it is sab's call.
<troy_s> (i know your contract probably says jane though)
<kwwii> actually I was told to do it through her (and I have some experience working with her)
<kwwii> so I need to get her to nod her head once
<troy_s> _and_ considering that the other 'heads of state' all sit idly by whilst the design issues amass more and more problems.
<troy_s> absolutely.
<kwwii> the more I do the more I see how much they are leaving this stuff to me
<troy_s> It just seems that inevitably, sab will pull the pin.
<kwwii> probably so that if I make the mistakes it comes back on me
<kwwii> which is fine by me ;-)
<troy_s> Well mistakes are... relative.
<troy_s> And, in an ideal world, expected.
<kwwii> yepp, it is the whole picture that is more important this time around
<troy_s> As one could argue that all of the bloody buntu's are a mistake as of now.
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> They certainly all suffer from the same issues fundamentally.
<kwwii> the best/worst part of this cycle is that I have a long way to go and a short time to get there, so nobody can expect the world
<troy_s> I think part of that is rooted in the stinking GNOME/KDE politics.
<kwwii> that is true, although I call it religion, not politics
<kwwii> ;-)
<troy_s> Well... yes it is worse than politics.
<kwwii> it is not founded on any real intelligent reasoning
<troy_s> In politics at least you can assassinate people and have it die.
<kwwii> as we are a distro we can go around that though
<troy_s> Nope.
<troy_s> Sort of...
<troy_s> I was speaking with an unnamed person today
<troy_s> and I can tell you, it roots deep.
<troy_s> Everyone is quite gutless
<troy_s> No one wants to make a decision and simply turns things into an 'upstream' issue.
<kwwii> dude, the upstream themeing discussion is a no-go
<troy_s> ???
<kwwii> there is little chance that gnome and kde are going to ever want to be the same
<troy_s> No when speaking of the 'larger' design issues.
<troy_s> God no
<troy_s> That's the point
<troy_s> But reality, the end user (lets assume say, someone in the 18-36 region with no FOSS experience) gives a shit about the politics -- they just get a desktop and they either think it stinks or doesn't.
<troy_s> It has very little to do with politics.
<kwwii> if you look at what we have done with the oxygen icons you will see that we have put thought into working well with gnome (tango)
<troy_s> for better or worse
<kwwii> sure, for the end user the whole thing is turned completely around
<troy_s> I find it difficult to reconcile anything universal with my background.
<troy_s> The terms simply doesn't exist, so designing for that myth is absolutely folly.
<troy_s> It inherently will involve aesthetics.
<troy_s> And that means a very distinct 'twist' on a concept.
<kwwii> yeah
<kwwii> on another topic, do you know how to install feisty in vmware?
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> very simple
<troy_s> first
<troy_s> sudo aptitude install vmware-player
<troy_s> 2nd make a vmx set
<troy_s> www.easyvmx.com i think
<kwwii> I have a vmware server running
<troy_s> will work for you
<troy_s> third, download install iso and install it.
<kwwii> ahh, cool, that is what I was looking for
<troy_s> ;)
<kwwii> well, the installer borks everytime I get past the keyboard stuff
<kwwii> it just sits there
<kwwii> on the console there is some complaint about the hard drive
<kwwii> hehe, since I updated my kernel it now seems to work ::-)
<kwwii> sorry for the bother
<kwwii> time for bed now though
<kwwii> see you tomorrow
<coz_> evening all
<the_fool> hello
<coz_> hey guy:)
<the_fool> :)
<coz_> I don't know eeryon who comes here but ar eyou new?
<the_fool> yep
<coz_> well then welcome :)
<the_fool> thnaks
<the_fool> brb
<coz_> so have you come to discuss , or show work, or just hang out /
<darkmatter> hiya klepas
<klepas> hey darkmatter
<klepas> how's the cold?
<darkmatter> getting better
<darkmatter> now I can work on glory more and catch up on bashing out the toolkit foundations fore my soon-to-start code project
<klepas> :-)
<troy_s> kwwii
<kwwii> re
<troy_s> kwwii are you still interested in that GDM?
<kwwii> troy_s: definitely
<troy_s> it seems like your balls are pinched for time, so I figured I would ask about it before i pushed a branch.
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> please do, I'll work on gdm this week, so I can start from your branch
<troy_s> there are actually a few 'bugs' in the code too.
<troy_s> as in finite set sizes for the entry box
<troy_s> etc
<troy_s> hard coded messes
<kwwii> nasty
<troy_s> ideally, those would be 100% scalable
<troy_s> they are easy to fix, but the 'fix' might pop up some new features ;)
<kwwii> I looked into it a bit and wondered exactly which values are really used and which are ignored
<troy_s> i was looking into the german word wrap issue
<troy_s> but i can't seem to see a way to adjust for wrappage
<troy_s> i can clip
<troy_s> but no wrap
<troy_s> well there are two portions of stanza that are completely there just to take up space
<kwwii> yeah, there is no intelligent text engine for that
<troy_s> i'll try to get the fixes in and push a branch.
<kwwii> excellent, thanks
<troy_s> kwwii: it is an upstream issue
<troy_s> and wrapping
<troy_s> would adjust the 'box' vars which adjusts composition etc.
<troy_s> kwwii: Have you heard of UIML?
<kwwii> I'll start filing bugs against gdm with my kde.org account :p
<kwwii> nope, never heard of it
<troy_s> Look into it... it is quite interesting in terms of designing towards the future.
<troy_s> it is a universal interface markup language
<kwwii> wow, cool
<troy_s> that makes no assumptions about how something is to be displayed
<kwwii> sounds interesting
<troy_s> it is rather interesting because it tackles all of the accessibility issues/power user issues/etc
<troy_s> with one broad stroke -- preventing app designers from 'locking' their interfaces into a particular layout
<troy_s> and it provides XML for a specialized interface designer to tweak
<troy_s> rather interesting on a side note...
<troy_s> just reminded me from dicking with GDM
<kwwii> killer
<troy_s> have a peek at it... it has some good ideas in it.
<kwwii> I will
<troy_s> so
<troy_s> what i was going to say
<troy_s> is push your last branch into gdm with your changes
<troy_s> and let me pull fresh off of it
<troy_s> so that we don't get too worried about merges
<kwwii> until now I have no changes ;-)
<troy_s> (simple incremental makes it easier as you can imagine)
<troy_s> okie
<troy_s> i thought you pushed new art for the gdm
<kwwii> going to add a new logo when I work on the version from the usplash
<troy_s> logo wise etc.
<troy_s> ahh.
<kwwii> etienne had some great comments
<troy_s> ok no guarantees, but I will try to clean it up now or so
<kwwii> great
<troy_s> echoed the nerf the white
<troy_s> et is a very clever guy
<troy_s> who_'s original CoF has some very fresh 'fruity' colours in the grads which really work.
<troy_s> if you could somehow recapture that, i think it would solve the white pink issues.
<kwwii> yeah, the pink seems a bit much to me
<troy_s> it is obviously unintentional
<troy_s> just a byproduct of the classic white gloss
<kwwii> yeah, it comes from the palette
<kwwii> I had an idea about the bg though
<kwwii> making a pic with a gradient as it is now, but not scale the pic and put it on a solid color bg (with the same color as the outside of the gradient
<troy_s> perhaps cheating the hue on the gloss might work -- instead of value only (ie adding white translucency)
<kwwii> that way people with large screens would not notice that the pic does not fit
<troy_s> interesting idea
<troy_s> if it is svg though, zoom will take care of that without breaking it down
<kwwii> true
<troy_s> funny you should mention that, the current WIP i have now
<kwwii> not sure about using an svg though
<troy_s> for a side project
<troy_s> is 17% opaque
<kwwii> lol
<troy_s> and relies on a vertical background grad
<kwwii> ouch, I wonder why
<troy_s> well it is by design
<troy_s> in gnome, the background grad will show through if your png/svg is translucent
<troy_s> which can make for some interesting mixes.
<troy_s> It allows for a user to tweak a colour base without needinga full blown new wallpaper
<troy_s> (within some obvious limitations that aren't worth mentioning ;) )
<troy_s> did you try one with the centre punch moved over?
<kwwii> seems like it would be better to just use a pic like you want
<kwwii> it certainly would save a bit of time loading
<troy_s> it saves a bit, but is a bit more flexible.
<kwwii> yeah, I am in the process of doing just that
<troy_s> for people who want the 'design' but
<troy_s> don't want a given colour set
<kwwii> gotcha
<troy_s> (dynamic hooks into the SVG is an ideal scenario)
<troy_s> darkmatter and I were working on something akin to that
<troy_s> for themes
<troy_s> setup a few icons with some established escape sequences and let the user tweak the colours through python
<kwwii> interesting
<troy_s> into Tropic nightmares of their own love.
<troy_s> Python is the best thing to happen to computing since sliced bread.
<kwwii> lol
<troy_s> speak of the sick devil
<troy_s> how's the flu dark?
<troy_s> kwwii: By the way, you never answered on a question I asked ages ago
<troy_s> Why did the default folder icon change?  I know it is a work in progress, but the earlier versions I saw seemed more elegant.
<darkmatter> troy_s, hiya
<troy_s> or is that nino(sp?)
<darkmatter> its better now... kinda... just gotback from the hospital...
<troy_s> sheesh
<darkmatter> I hate my lungs
<troy_s> darkmatter: Have you had any time for the middle grey project?
<troy_s> darkmatter: I have some time to try plugging away at the python elements.
<darkmatter> haha... yeah... was feeling well enough to work on it last night.. then 15 minutes after I started gimping my lungs threw a hissy fit
<darkmatter> but I think I'll be able to do more today
<kwwii> troy_s: it was one of those group decisions that I didn't win, basically
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> kwwii Fall down go boom
<darkmatter> haha
<kwwii> exactly :-)
<troy_s> kwwii Well that's too bad.  How many folks contribute to oxygen beyond yourself?
<troy_s> nuino and ?
<kwwii> nuno and david
<troy_s> ah.
<troy_s> wow... that's a pro wrestling 2:1
<kwwii> and nuno does pretty much whatever david wants
<kwwii> yeah
<troy_s> Sounds like fun.
<troy_s> Patsies.
<troy_s> ;)
<kwwii> oh yeah, you gotta love a good democracy
<troy_s> You got to love em.
<darkmatter> this is one of those "sabdfl flexes his deep pockets n says "I'm da daddy.... we use these folders.. NOW!!!!" moments?
<darkmatter> ;)
<troy_s> Yep.  Isn't that the addage that a giraffe is what you get when you try to create a horse through democracy?
<kwwii> lol, yeah
<troy_s> although i have some fundamental disagreements with it -- most of the best work i have ever seen is through tight collaboration.
<troy_s> ultimately, it is the individuals involved.
<troy_s> kwwii do you do the 'hardware' icons?
<kwwii> oh believe me when I say that the teamwork on oxygen is sooo much better than it was on crystal
<kwwii> troy_s: well, I have done quite a few of them
<kwwii> I am the best illustrator in the group
<kwwii> and those icons are very realistic
<darkmatter> brb
<kwwii> this weekend went by way too fast
* kwwii uploads some pics to flickr and then watches a film
<PingunZ> kwwii, mind sharing the link ? :)
<PingunZ> of your flickr
<kwwii> PingunZ: www.flickr.com/people/kwwii/
<PingunZ> k, thx :)
<kwwii> not too much there yet
<kwwii> but you can see the lasagne I made today
<PingunZ> hehe
<PingunZ> nice
<PingunZ> :)
<PingunZ> a lil' too long in the oven imo
<kwwii> lol
<PingunZ> I think google should make a flickr like thing
<troy_s> isn't that where picassa is heading?
* PingunZ doesn't feel like creating a yahoo account just for flickr
<PingunZ> troy_s, didn't know about that, but you're right :)
<PingunZ> 250mb, not bad
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-04
<JohnC> Hi all
<JohnC> can anyone help me to get started?
<JohnC> i'm kinda lost atm
<Toma-> started with what?
<JohnC> welll i've joined groups and what not, launchpad, etc
<JohnC> but how do i actually get involved with designing artwork?
<Toma-> design something, add it to the wiki, spam it on the mailing list or in here
<Toma-> thats one approach
<JohnC> lol ok
<Toma-> constructive criticism on the mailing list is another good one
<Toma-> but its alot more productive to actually do some work than point out small problems
<JohnC> my wiki won't seem to save personal settings
<JohnC> its taking 4eva
<JohnC> yeh i want to do work
<JohnC> but i don't know where to start, how to view where the current theme is headed and add to it? Where can i see the most recent artwork?
<nothlit> yeah the personal settings, they're incredibly laggy-- if its not important just leave it alone
<troy_s> JohnC: What are youlooking for?
<JohnC> i'm not sure exactly, i just don't know where to look or where to contribute
<JohnC> or where to see what way the project is headed, is there a color pallette for all to use or anything like that?
<troy_s> JohnC: there is no contribution.  there never has been really.  occasionally for one reason or another a tidbit gets integrated with random decisiveness.
<troy_s> JohnC: Nope.  Nothing.
<JohnC> oh so its sort of just here's a suggestion use it if you want
<troy_s> JohnC: Not even that.
<JohnC> well whats the point of i tall
<troy_s> JohnC: There isn't one.
<JohnC> it* all*
<JohnC> lol
<JohnC> ridiculous
<troy_s> JohnC: It is what it is.
<troy_s> JohnC: Truth be told, there is _some_ point to it -- occasionally you will bump into an individual or what not that you might spawn some sort of creative relationship with.
<JohnC> i see
<troy_s> JohnC: The reality is that it is a highly coveted distribution from the hierarchy at the top of Canonical.  The 'need' isn't exactly there.
<JohnC> yeh
<troy_s> JohnC: And from a community standpoint, there still exists the inability to deal with fundamental design principles and concepts.
<troy_s> JohnC: All in all, more or less the same state of affairs across FOSS.
<JohnC> it would just be nice if there was a system where canonical gives out a template of all the things it needs then designers put in a sample and a few are selected to do the artwork for the entire OS or something like that
<troy_s> JohnC: Canonical is no more enlightened than the bulk of the community when it comes to the complexities of art and design.
<troy_s> JohnC: It would seem logical that process is a critical element, but to be honest, the current state of affairs would dictate that it falls in around 67th important factor.
<troy_s> JohnC: With art and design 101 probably falling in first.
<troy_s> JohnC: Maybe even a precursory high-school study in art and design instead of 101.  ;)
<JohnC> haha
<JohnC> well is anyone interested in my work?
<troy_s> JohnC: I might be.  Link to your work?
<JohnC> http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6747/wall1md6.jpg
<JohnC> i've only done one thing so far
<JohnC> i only just got on 2day
<JohnC> its a draft too
<troy_s> JohnC: Hrm...
<JohnC> i didn't try to do anything special i've only just started it as a concept, meh its a waste of time tho right?
<JohnC> i'm used to doing different stuff tho
<troy_s> JohnC: Nothing ever is a waste of time.
<troy_s> JohnC: At the very least, doing leads to learning.
<JohnC> http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8849/originalyx2.png
<JohnC> this is stuff like i normally do
<troy_s> JohnC: What are you seeking?
<JohnC> i just think ubuntu and similar open source OS are great, i just wanted to get involved
<JohnC> i'm just a student in Nanotechnology who does graphics in his spare time
<troy_s> JohnC: Interesting.
<JohnC> was that graphic any good?
<JohnC> it would be nice to know if i am any good at design from someone who knows what they are talking about
<troy_s> JohnC: Well you certainly don't have the right guy if you are looking for someone who knows what they are talking about.
<JohnC> hahaha
<JohnC> well did u like it then?
<troy_s> JohnC: Which one?
<troy_s> JohnC: The wallpaper?
<JohnC> either
<troy_s> JohnC: I am not a fan of branding.
<troy_s> JohnC: Both works seem to also suffer from a need for a more carefully considered tonal range or palette.  Some fundamental colour theory might help?
<JohnC> branding?
<troy_s> JohnC: The Ubuntu logo in this case.  Also, compositionally, I believe the works could be elevated with a little more formal knowledge.
<JohnC> well i just do it for fun
<JohnC> i'm not planning to do a course in it or anything
<troy_s> JohnC: Even a brief look at wikipedia might help with some of the more familiar concepts of classical composition.
<JohnC> ok
<JohnC> thanks
<troy_s> JohnC: Nice chatting with you.
<elwo0d> hi all
<kwwii> ok, time to answer emails
<kwwii> btw, I pushed some updates to the simplified icons
<kwwii> I think that we should go with the simple 2D version for now, perhaps looking into the etched stuff in the future, once we have the basic shapes figured out
<kwwii> anyway, the simple 2D stuff will match the text which is already on the panel
<kwwii> _MMA_: you have sponsorship for the next UDS?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-05
<troy_s> kwwii: Yikes
<troy_s> kwwii: You are using Hardy apparently -- bzr no workie on the pull down!
<troy_s> kwwii: if you can figure out how to resolve it, let me know.  I want to pull a branch.
<_MMA_> troy_s: Open backports and grab the 1.0 bzr package.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Ok stupid question... where the hell is backports?
<_MMA_> troy_s: Synaptic->Settings->Repos->"Updates" tab.
<_MMA_> 4th check box down.
<_MMA_> Or uncomment it in your sources.list. I wouldnt leave it open though.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Yet more reasons to love FOSS -- you learn things daily.  Always knew about backports, never really pulled them I guess.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Breaks stuffs?
<_MMA_> Well, for me, if F'ed a new BZR branch I did. Now like you, everyone needs to use the backported BZR to upload to my branch.
<_MMA_> s/if/it
<_MMA_> But yeah. Best to grab what you need only.
<troy_s> _MMA_: What do you think of the Fela Kuti wallpaper?
<troy_s> _MMA_: It's pretty bloody well crafted.
<_MMA_> Yeah. I grabbed it. Im using Who's on all my desktops now though. :P Just something about it.
<kwwii> I just added a search icon to https://code.launchpad.net/~kwwii/human-panel-icons/trunk
<troy_s> kwwii: Grr.
<troy_s> kwwii: I wonder if I pull the branch using the newer bzr and revert to the older one if that would fix the issue
<troy_s> kwwii: Or if it will be boned after you pull the original bzr version then push using the newer one.
<_MMA_> No. It depends on what version was used to create the branch.
<troy_s> kwwii: Also, the directionality of the wave emissions is very close to the sound icon.  I was going to try and make a blob emanating from the center with a more circular full set for wifi.
<_MMA_> You would have to pull the info, nuke the branch and re-up it with the old bzr version.
<troy_s> _MMA_: So if I pull a branch using the new version, revert my bzr, destroy the .bzr and re-push a branch
<troy_s> _MMA_: I think that might work.
<troy_s> (as in a full bzr init, bzr add, bzr commit, bzr push)
<_MMA_> It should.
<_MMA_> (so I was told)
<kwwii> wow, what is the issue?
<kwwii> sounds pretty devastating
<kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I was thinking that the waves are too much alike
<_MMA_> kwwii: Your initial branch of the icons were done with a version of BZR incompatiable on some levels with the current release version of bzr found in Gutsy.
<kwwii> _MMA_: hrm, I am running gutsy
<_MMA_> Then you did like I did and grabbed a update from backports.
<_MMA_> Look at the version of bzr you're running.
<kwwii> Bazaar (bzr) 1.0.0
<_MMA_> kwwii: Do: bzr version
<_MMA_> Yep. You grabbed the backport update.
<kwwii> freaky, I did not know that there was an issue with which version of bzr you had
<troy_s> kwwii: You must have bumped up bzr.
<troy_s> kwwii: If you are running gutsy
<troy_s> kwwii: Remove backports from the list and do a full remove / purge of bzr
<troy_s> kwwii: Then re-add it with backports disabled.
<troy_s> kwwii: It is sort of what I was getting at -- pull the branch as it is now current -- revert my bzr, strip the .bzr dir out, re-initialize and commit the new branch.
<troy_s> kwwii: But that would mean that you would need to continue work on the .90 implemented branch.
<troy_s> kwwii: Nice to see the asstastic power button icon is getting into trouble (as it should have been canned ages ago -- your icon is about as good as I have seen yet)
<kwwii> what is default in hardy?
<kwwii> hehe, thanks
<kwwii> feel free to make any improvements you feel necessary, btrw
<kwwii> btw
<_MMA_> 1.0 is in hardy.
<_MMA_> Messed up thing for me is they didnt backport everything.
<_MMA_> Like bzr-buildpackage.
<troy_s> kwwii: I'd like to get going on some... first... I think we need to resolve the bzr issue.
<troy_s> kwwii: Any chance you can revert your bzr so as to not cause issues on your end?
<troy_s> kwwii: If yes... I'll get an updated branch and fix it all.
<troy_s> kwwii: But first a shower.  Gotta love force majure.
<troy_s> Nice stuff here for those of a certain mindset... http://www.divinecaroline.com/article/37963/43588
<kwwii> ok, so now I am at Bazaar (bzr) 0.90.0
<kwwii> how do I get rid of the old stuff on launchpad?
<_MMA_> kwwii: As long as your data on you machine you can kill the .bzr folder in that folder.
<_MMA_> Im unsure how to kill the branch. Troy knows.
<kwwii> _MMA_: I did a re-init of the dir after removing the .bzr dir
<_MMA_> ok
<kwwii> all I need to do is to push the new trunk in place of the old one
<_MMA_> Sayz you. Ok. :)
 * _MMA_ has no experience actually doing it.
<troy_s> kwwii: The best thing I can think of is just that
<troy_s> kwwii: Just rm the .bzr, re-init, add, commit, push.
<troy_s> kwwii: And change the 'trunk' focus to your new branch
<troy_s> relatively easy or at least should be.
<troy_s> (the last step being inside of launchpad)
<kwwii> bzr: ERROR: Unknown branch format: 'Bazaar pack repository format 1 (needs bzr 0.92)\n'
<maccam-desktop> kwwii: grr, i'm reading through the logs/the launchpad page, and i can't tell: is the new theme design definitely pushed back to Hardy+1?
<kwwii> maccam-desktop: the raically new theme will come later, yes
<kwwii> we are changing things
<maccam-desktop> kwwii: ok. you should change the hardy-theme blueprint overview to make this clear, or make it deferred or something... i couldn't tell if the decision was official/final or not because of that
<kwwii> troy_s: https://code.launchpad.net/~kwwii/human-panel-icons/main
<kwwii> I did change the blueprint irrc
<kwwii> at least I think I did
<kwwii> :-)
<maccam-desktop> kwwii: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/hardy-theme
<kwwii> yeah, I missed the overview part
<kwwii> but I did change the text itself :p
<kwwii> now it is changed
<kwwii> troy_s: let me know if that branch works
<_MMA_> kwwii: Who replied to you.
<_MMA_> "Who" as in the artist. :P
<kwwii> _MMA_: I know Who (you are talking about) :p
<kwwii> I also replied back right at him
<_MMA_> Ok. I just wanted to avoid a whole Abbott and Costello thing. :P
<maccam-desktop> kwwii: by adding "This is the first step in that direction"? This is the theme spec for 8.04, not a general artwork spec :-\ I think it should say something like "The theme of Ubuntu 8.04 will be an improved version of the existing Human theme. The visual refresh has been deferred to Hardy+1".
<maccam-desktop> just my $0.02
<maccam-desktop> i'll stop bugging you now, i'm certain you're busy with much more important tasks
<troy_s> kwwii: Woop.  +1.  Repo works.
<troy_s> kwwii: The colour icons are far surpassed by the monochromatic ones by a long shot.
<kwwii> cool
<kwwii> I think that the simplicity of them should make it easier for others to contribute
<kwwii> I am off to bed, night all
<_MMA_> night
<troy_s> kwwii: Damn you
<troy_s> kwwii: one second
<troy_s> kwwii: 1) nuke the other branch now :)
<troy_s> 2) give me a second... i added three.
<somerville32> :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-06
<newz2000> every time I have to use gimp for more than cropping or resizing I think, "there has to be something better..." I love inkscape but sometimes I need raster editing. Is there anything new and exciting?
<_MMA_> "Is there anything new and exciting?" newz2000: Look for yourself. https://launchpad.net/~inkscape.testers/+archive
<newz2000> oh yes, I'm using that
<_MMA_> Though I think the answer is "No".
<moon_g> good day
<_MMA_> k
<newz2000> there was a new update in the last two days even
<newz2000> it looks like inkscape has some basic raster editing in it now too
<newz2000> which is nice
<newz2000> I wonder if krita was updated with kde4
<troy_s> greets newz2000
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-07
<kwwii> well, this is certainly a busy channel
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: ARTWORK!!!!
* kwwii changed the topic of #ubuntu-artwork to: ART WORKS!
<bersace> Hi everyone
<bersace> i largely prefer having a polished theme for LTS rather than a new buggy theme
<bersace> breaking thing is a matter of LTS+1 ;)
<bersace> keep up the good work
<bersace> andreasn: congrats for all you icons, much nice :)
<andreasn> bersace: hm? what icons?
<andreasn> all of them?
<kwwii> hi bersace
<kwwii> hi andreasn
<kwwii> http://sinecera.de/panel_icons_example.png
<kwwii> andreasn: check those icons out and let me know what you think
<kwwii> naturally they are not perfect yet :-)
<andreasn> cool
<andreasn> I defenitly want to push gnome upstream in this direction too
<andreasn> I mean, we do that on other platforms, like n810 and openmoko anyway
<andreasn> I can't make out the icon on the left, is that deskbar-applet?
<bersace> kwwii: kind of OS X like ;)
<bersace> kwwii:  is think you should not be so simplistic
<bersace> see, Apple has its own logo plus spotlit logo color
<bersace> i mean, please keep update, logout and application logo
<bersace> update needs to be coloured
<kwwii> update would be colored when it needs action
<kwwii> actually, it would not be shown when it is not in use I guess
<kwwii> some things will have color
<kwwii> and the long term idea is to look into using an etched look down the road some days
<kwwii> day
<kwwii> making simple shapes is the right way forward, I think
<kwwii> andreasn: yeah, it is supposed to be the deskbar applet :-)
<kwwii> andreasn: have there been any discussions about using this kind of idea upstream?
<andreasn> no big discussions really
<andreasn> I just chatted with vuntz a bit about it
<kwwii> one thing I notice is that if we use simple icons they need to be a bit smaller or they stand out too much
<kwwii> of course, I have no idea how this can be implemented yet :-)
<bersace> kwwii: do you actually intend to drop the distributor logo ?
<kwwii> bersace: no, that was just something I missed when making the mockup
<bersace> ok
<bersace> nop
<kwwii> it will be the only thing that is always colored, I guess
<bersace> i did a wallpaper last month : http://bersac.hd.free.fr/~bersace/tmp/tango-blur.png
<bersace> (not yet named)
<bersace> do you like it ?
<bersace> (this is NOT a proposal for Ubuntu ;) )
<kwwii> still loading
<kwwii> hehe, I like the things you can do with fyre :-)
<kwwii> I thought about using some kind of program like that to randomize the defualt wallpaper
<kwwii> just create one on the fly  - but I guess that will never work well
<andreasn> cool idea though
<elkbuntu> kwwii, svg animations could almost work, if you want to torment yourself
<kwwii> I want to be known as the guy who brought javascript to the Gnome desktop :p
<andreasn> http://www.pyrodesktop.org/Main_Page
<andreasn> too late :)
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> nothlit: I suggested you for UDS this year, hope you don't mind :-)
<kwwii> erm, s/year/May
<kwwii> btw, who made Fela Kuti?
<nothlit> kwwii: oh ok great :)
<nothlit> kwwii: https://launchpad.net/~cogneato (AshCogs) made it
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-08
<sean_> hello
<Riyonuk>  Where can I get the ubuntu "My Computer" icon?
<ubuntulover> OOoohh... So, here is the ancient Ubuntu Art-lounge.
<ubuntulover> Hello, Ubuntu-Arting-Gods!
<ubuntulover> (:
<ubuntulover> Can we - users - hope that 8.04 will have friendly interface, without striking eyes and windows 2000-looks?
<ubuntulover> *without striking eyes COLORS
<ubuntulover> Hey! Guys, r u here?
<ubuntulover> Is it shows how Ubuntu 8.04 will looks like??? http://vdepizzol.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/ubuntu-hardy1.jpg
<kwwii> howdy
<_MMA_> :P
<JanC> does anybody know who this is from: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Fela_Kuti and/or which license is used for Artwork on the wiki?
<JanC> people are discussing a T-shirt design for the ubuntu-nl hardy release party, and some people have used the heron in their design proposals, but we (at least I) want to be sure that's allowed...
<JanC> hm, I guess AshCogs = https://launchpad.net/~cogneato ?
<kwwii> JanC: yes, apparently so
<kwwii> JanC: if you contact the author let me know, I was thinking about discussing putting it in as wallpaper sometime next week
<JanC> the author of the T-shirt design will probably mail him (I pointed him to that launchpad page)
<kwwii> JanC: cool
<kwwii> there is another person who makes paintings/drawings of the mascot each release on deviantart
<JanC> for makign a package, you would have to ask him for a proper license and not just permission, I guess  ;)
<kwwii> JanC: right...also I would ask for it to be tweaked a bit, etc.
<JanC> kwwii: he seemed to be fine with changes, from what I read
<JanC> but packages need a specific license...
<kwwii> right
<thorwil> so now the next meeting thread is about docks and dumping or not dumping files on the desktop
<pr> where can I find the latest mockup of the artwork on Hardy? (I can't find it in the wiki)
<mhb> kwwii: hi
<Skiessl> http://skiessi.googlepages.com/titlebar.png I made something, you can keep it
<kwwii> hi mhb
<mhb> kwwii: wow, I wouldn't expect you to reply so late at night
<kwwii> I just came back from band practice ;-)
<mhb> aah
<mhb> kwwii: I like the idea of having special icons for the panel
<mhb> kwwii: but the update icon is not really that clear to me
<mhb> to me, it's an arrow pointing to an explosion
<mhb> which doesn't make much sense to me.
<kwwii> mhb: yeah, that icon is a long way from good
<mhb> kwwii: I've been thinking about a nice update icon for some time now, I've pondered a circle-of-friends like symbol merged with the "update" arrows - http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=update3sk1.png like this
<mhb> because the icon should say both "update" and "desktop"
<kwwii> one thing about the new icons though is that they do not use several colors
<mhb> yeah
<mhb> I know.
<kwwii> but the idea is interesting
<mhb> I wanted to ask you
<kwwii> although i would worry about it getting mixed up with the real logo
<mhb> what's the easiest way of merging say the "arrow" part with the kubuntu official logo, which is several layers deep
<mhb> ?
<mhb> is there an easy way to do this, without playing with nodes for several hours?
<kwwii> just select both pieces and then, in the path menu in inkscape choose union
<kwwii> just do that to each piece again and again
<mhb> I guess I'll try to play with the 2D version, too
<mhb> thanks
<kwwii> np
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-09
<swj> was the meeting today?
<DShepherd> are the logs up for the meeting that was held today?
<DShepherd> or yesterday rather..*depending on your timezone*
<troy_s> Topic: Next Meeting
<troy_s> Content:  Let's talk about docks and concepts that have more or less been in the Avant Window Navigator since its inception.
<troy_s> *sigh*
<thorwil> hi troy_s. to me, this is the lowest point since i have been on the list
<troy_s> thorwil: You haven't been on the list for long -- lol.
<troy_s> thorwil: Good to see you ...
<troy_s> thorwil: Have you been busy?
<thorwil> troy_s: i have been busy with not getting much done of anything :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Good times.
<thorwil> too many things i would like to work on and sometimes that leads to me doing nothing in the end
<troy_s> thorwil: The list is rather mind numbing -- it seems we have a good share of people who can't take the two seconds to edit a reply down to the relevant quotes.  Better still, the one work all-lowercase response is ...
<thorwil> at least my launchpad logo is done
<troy_s> thorwil: Well that's good.  Did you push it to the submissions page?
<thorwil> yes
<thorwil> troy_s: right below yours :)
<troy_s> thorwil: I was going to provide two -- one with the literal rocket (as the folks who are the 'art directors' generally are sooooo bloody literal that it is embarrassing) and slightly more abstracted simplistic one.
<thorwil> troy_s: heh, that was my plan, too
<thorwil> troy_s: but right now i can't be bothered to do a rocket
<thorwil> https://help.launchpad.net/logo/submissions
<thorwil> a not too bad rocket on the bottom
<thorwil> only the fin in the back seems off, or is that just me?
<troy_s> thorwil: Toyed with a few rockets.  I still might do a 1950s inspired retro rocket.  That said, the absolutely stupid decision to need 14 pixel representations is a crippler.  Rather like GNOMES idiotic 22 pixels.
<thorwil> 14px = fly shit
<thorwil> troy_s: your rocket looks fat and happy :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Equals a really really brutal decision.  God... I need to de-egg that piece of crap I did...
<troy_s> thorwil: It ended up fatter for a compositional reason, that said, I am de-egging it now.
<troy_s> lol
<thorwil> i just love https://help.launchpad.net/logo/submissions?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=medigeek_LP192b.png
<thorwil> cloned communists watching a military rocket launch
<troy_s> LOL
<troy_s> thorwil: Ok that is a hilarious descriptive take on it.
<troy_s> thorwil: That said, I doubt I could rework anything like that with that degree of complexity - esp with the 14 pixel crap.
<thorwil> troy_s: do you happen to know the name of that african tribe where the males sometimes jump in the group in a stiff pose?
<troy_s> LOL.  No sorry.
<thorwil> troy_s: just as i wrote the question i remembered: massai
<thorwil> http://images.world66.com/ma/ss/ai/massai_dance_galleryfull
<thorwil> or rather masai
<thorwil> perfect: http://www.eaaircharters.co.ke/Images/Masai.jpg
<thorwil> i have this idea of an abstracted depiction of this group jumping as a wallpaper - maybe just as boot screen
<troy_s> thorwil: I have seen quite a few African stylized tie ins with Ubuntu, and to a certain degree I find the effort to be optically literal.
<thorwil> troy_s: optically literal?
<troy_s> thorwil: Rather like Apple or Orange using fruit, etc.
<troy_s> thorwil: Follow me?
<thorwil> troy_s: if you're saying it's a natural match, yes
<troy_s> thorwil: It is a literal interpretation on a notion that doesn't necessarily require it.
<troy_s> thorwil: One could probably sort through the 100s of brands that use monikers of existing 'real-world' items.
<troy_s> thorwil: Of those that do, I would be willing to bet that in nearly all instances, the design firms hired by them abstain from attaching the moniker to the object in question.
<troy_s> thorwil: I think people have mistaken the insistence on brown in Ubuntu as some sort of African tie-in.
<troy_s> thorwil: When in reality (as straight out of sabdfl's mouth himself) it was a reference to sepia originally.
<troy_s> (although he didn't state it as such -- his connection was drawn in reference to photography -- which in this case happened to be sepia toned.)
<thorwil> troy_s: the african tie-in seems like an easy way to get some emotion in
<troy_s> thorwil: Perhaps too easy?
<thorwil> troy_s: i believe the brown was just a matter of not blue. or green ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: I would wholeheartedly agree that one of the most important missing components is an emotional buy in, however.  That statement is spot on.
<thorwil> troy_s: perhaps. but see, what i have in mind is basically a group of people jumping in unison. so you could see masai, but you don'T have to
<troy_s> thorwil: It was originally tied in to photos though.  I remember discussing it with Mark and actually asking for the original reasoning.
<troy_s> thorwil: Brown is quite brilliant, so I figured it had to be a mistake.
<thorwil> lol
<troy_s> thorwil:  Have you ever read a book labelled "Visual Literacy"?
<thorwil> troy_s: nope
<troy_s> thorwil: It is sort of a low level book on art and design, but it has some rather eye opening constrained exercises in it (as it is geared toward being a teaching device)
<thorwil> troy_s: impossible to find. author?
<troy_s> thorwil: It's interesting because it takes a very constrained environment -- say 'you must use six squares' and then expects the students to generate emotion with them.
<troy_s> thorwil: Very easy to find... hold on.
<troy_s> http://www.amazon.com/Visual-Literacy-Conceptual-Approach-Graphic/dp/0823056201
<thorwil> troy_s: had lots of such constrained tasks in first 2 semesters. allthough many where not about the impact, but rather finding variations
<troy_s> thorwil:  It is interesting if only because it cuts down to the essence of communication -- it isn't higher level like many design references that focus on composition or the grid / colour theory / etc.
<thorwil> well, i studied industrial design, not graphics or communication design after all :)
<thorwil> i suddenly feel encouraged to break my concept down to a common energetic movement or impulse within a group ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: Even if Paul Rand put a logo up on that Launchpad site, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that it would not get selected.
<thorwil> hmm, amazon.com allows search inside the book, but amazon.de doesn't
<troy_s> thorwil: I believe .com has a bigger set of collections and the infrastructure in place while the other's don't yet.
<thorwil> troy_s: it's not like i live in a first world country, anyway ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: Lol.  yeah.
<troy_s> thorwil: Weird though -- I noticed quite a few differences between the .com and the .ca.
<thorwil> troy_s: i do think that many non-designers do recognize clean lines and to-the-point concepts.
<thorwil> then again, xerox has a x-men beachball now :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Our community has created an unwieldy mass of disproportionately 'art/design challenged' people.
<troy_s> thorwil: Thanks to the rejection of all things artsy in the name of all things hard-science-theory-developer-centric-ism.
<thorwil> troy_s: as much as i might agree, beware of sounding like a diva ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: As is probably exemplified with the ridiculous number of 'Use colour xxx' or 'Shapes should be yyy' on the mailing list -- the individuals that FOSS has attracted in the past rely on such "hard facts" to shape their world.
<troy_s> thorwil: Diva or otherwise, it's a bloody hard trend.
<troy_s> thorwil: As a gross oversimplicity, it seems we have a brilliant bunch of minds that have let another aspect shrivel up and die.
<thorwil> troy_s: designers are likely as trapped in a way of thinking as developers are
<thorwil> gotta go, cya!
<troy_s> thorwil: Toodles.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-02-10
<bert_> hi, can someone tell me if I'm free to use the ubuntu artwork (like orange arrows) ?
<troy_s> bert_: Find the license
<troy_s> bert_: I would think that at a bare minimum, the licence would be CC by SA
<troy_s> bert_: Or better.
<troy_s> bert_: Does that help you?
<troy_s> bert_: There are only particular 'closed' mentality clauses on things that involve the actual Ubuntu logo or the Ubuntu text.
<bert_> kind of, well I just want to use the left and right pointing arrows that come by default in ubuntu (nautilus)
<bert_> so I can just use those if I want ?
<troy_s> bert_: As I said
<bert_> okey, thanks troy_s
<troy_s> bert_: You will need to know for certain, and that means
<troy_s> bert_: tracking down the license.
<troy_s> bert_: I say this because in SOME instances, the license is missing for parts of the artwork and we need to know about it.
<bert_> well, as it is in ubuntu main I think it should be under a OS license
<troy_s> bert_: So you can not only help yourself, but you can help the community at large.
<troy_s> bert_: You _think_... :) - the reality is that some mistakes might be in there.
<troy_s> bert_: I believe the arrows in question fall under the jurisdiction of the Human icon set
<troy_s> bert_: And that license should be easy to find.
<bert_> yeah, I'm going to check it now
<troy_s> bert_: Thanks.
<troy_s> bert_: http://packages.debian.org/sid/x11/human-icon-theme
<troy_s> bert_: States 'non-free' which means it has either 1) odd clauses or 2) isn't a Debian approved licence or both.
<troy_s> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/non-free/h/human-icon-theme/human-icon-theme_0.24.debian-1/human-icon-theme.copyright
<troy_s> bert_: The Human Icon Theme is licensed under the Creative Commons Legal Code
<troy_s> Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> bert_: That assumes that the two icons you wish to use are covered in that repository package.
<bert_> damn, I was trying to find that :P
<bert_> so that means that I have to place the names of the makers somewhere, right ?
<thorwil> attribution of course means that you have to print some text referinbg to the origin right on top of the arrows! ;)
<bert_> lol :P
<thorwil> in theory, those who use attribution should define how it should be done themselves
<thorwil> in practice, i havn't seen anyone doing it. i don't do it myself
<troy_s> thorwil: Actually, it is much like the GPL
<troy_s> thorwil: You must include the license with the file etc., etc.,
<thorwil> bert_: where do you want to use those arrows?
<troy_s> thorwil: I believe the commons site has a 'bare minimum' guideline.
<bert_> but if I put something in the meta data of my webpage like "arrows from the human icon theme, more info on" and then a link to the copyright thing
<troy_s> bert_: Check the license itself.
<bert_> troy_s, I'm not a native english speaker so I don't fully understand the license
<troy_s> http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions
<troy_s> bert_: If you can chat here, you should be able to understand their FAQ>
<bert_> okey
<bert_> thx troy_s
<troy_s> bert_: If you can't, please ask someone to help you.  Anyone around in here will probably at least _try_.
<bert_> yeah, I'm reading the faq now and it's a lot clearer then the license text itself
<thorwil> to me, lawyer speak in english is only slightly harder to read than in my native language :)
<troy_s> bert_: the proper way of accrediting your use of a work when you're making a verbatim use is: (1) to keep intact any copyright notices for the Work; (2) credit the author, licensor and/or other parties (such as a wiki or journal) in the manner they specify; (3) the title of the Work; and (4) the Uniform Resource Identifier for the work if specified by the author and/or licensor.
<troy_s> bert_: Yes... as the FAQ states -- there are 3 parts -- the legal one isn't expected to be understood by everyone
<thorwil> point 2 is what i was referring to
<troy_s> thorwil: Whatever manner specified (if it is)
<troy_s> thorwil: Relatively clear.  Generally, that indicates that the names be intact in the license.  Although, if someone is angry with how you use their work, they can request to be removed from that acknowledgement.
<troy_s> thorwil: As is assured under the license.
<bert_> so if I put in meta data on a webpage that the arrows are from the human icon theme, which is copyright by canonical (copy past fromt he debian stuff) and quote the upstream authors it's okey ?
<troy_s> bert_: You need to only worry about the license
<troy_s> bert_: And all that it implies
<troy_s> bert_: That clause will help, but bear in mind the following sentence:
<troy_s> You also need to provide the Uniform Resource Locator for the Creative Commons license that applies to the work, together with each copy of the work that you make available.
<troy_s> bert_: Read the section " How do I properly attribute a Creative Commons licensed work?"
<troy_s> bert_: Until you at least understand the bare minimum that the license requires.  Then (as said earlier in the document) look at the particular license -- in this case I believe it is CC by SA 2.5.
<thorwil> bert_: doing all this properly isn't worth it for 2 arrows, i'd say
<thorwil> which can be taken 2 ways :)
<bert_> yeah I know it's stupid
<bert_> but I think licensing is important
<bert_> it's what gives us the freedom to share in the open source world
<thorwil> it is
<troy_s> bert_: It is... and bear in mind
<troy_s> bert_: That you only need to learn how to do something once.
<troy_s> bert_: I think what you are doing is extremely worthwhile.
<troy_s> bert_: And it will help 1) you _now_ 2) others in the future if you help them 3) others who have licenced work that you might see being used incorrectly etc.
<troy_s> bert_: It is a far far far cry from stupid.
<troy_s> The number of people who use or fail to understand licenses is massive.  Learning how the license works and how to properly cite it is ... helluva important.  Ask any MOTU about crappy applications of license terms and you might get an earful.
<bert_> so if I understand this paragraph right I have to say that the human icon theme is licensed under the Creative Common Legal Code Attrubution-ShareAlike 2.5, copyright by canonical Ltd., made by -quote the names-
<bert_> (that's kind of what the FAQ says
<bert_> )
<troy_s> bert_: I would think that something along those lines, with a link to the actual license (see follow up sentence) would suffice.
<troy_s> bert_: And it specifically mentions metadata usage.
<bert_> I don't get that last phrase ?
<troy_s> bert_: Keep intact the license (1), (2) credit the author in the manner they request, (3) maintain title, (4) the URI of the work and or licensor, and the follow up sentence (5) URI to the Creative commons license itself.
<troy_s> bert_: So if you want to bury it in the metadata, that appears fine.
<bert_> okey
<bert_> so I just put all of that in metadata and I'm fine then
<troy_s> bert_: Be aware of the 'share alike' clause
<bert_> yeah, that's very important indeed
<troy_s> bert_: It is rather like the GPL
<troy_s> bert_: That basically means that your 'body of work' becomes share alike, IIRC.
<bert_> thanks troy_sand thorwil
<troy_s> bert_: No problem bert_ ... share the knowledge.
<bert_> well, the GPL is easier, because I really know that license very well
<thorwil> troy_s: doesn't that only apply if he modifies the material?
<bert_> (atleast version 2)
<troy_s> thorwil: I believe the "ShareAlike" (and only the share alike) pulls you into a share alike clause.
<troy_s> thorwil: Hence the extra 'share alike' license... it is more or less a GPLesque license.
<bert_> indeed, lol :p
<bert_> why isn't everything just licensed under the GPL :P
<thorwil> troy_s: i mean to remember that sharealike deals with derivatives and keeping them open
<thorwil> because the GPL was made for code
<troy_s> thorwil: Wow.  Here is an interesting question...
<troy_s> thorwil: You just read the list post?
<thorwil> troy_s: eh, which one?
<troy_s> thorwil: If someone works in Photoshop or another proprietary format, I wonder if providing the source actually abides by licensing.
<thorwil> ah, that one
<troy_s> thorwil: As technically, providing the source in a proprietary format is rather... useless really.
<troy_s> thorwil: Not really an issue in code, but heading into the new art and design frontier it seems relevant.
<bert_> yeah, kind of
<thorwil> i thought by myself: yuck, photoshop. then i wondered if i'm a zealot now ;)
<bert_> don't you guys do artwork in the gimp ?
<bert_> of inkscape ?
<troy_s> thorwil: Yep you are.
<troy_s> bert_: I am a huge fan of inkscape
<thorwil> inkscape is enlightened!
<troy_s> bert_: I believe that the future of raster imaging lie in 1) nodal compositing and 2) vectors
<bert_> vectors are cool :p
<troy_s> bert_: There are some _amazing_ examples of work out there done entirely using vectors -- some might trick you into thinking that they were developed in a raster program.
<bert_> I hope the future lies in formates like SVG
<bert_> that would make life a lot easier
<troy_s> bert_: There is a _lot_ of upside to traditional work done in vector.
<troy_s> bert_: The fact that you can generally go in and change a brushstroke, a tonal range, etc., has massive upside.
<thorwil> SVG has its limitations
<thorwil> like no way to express gradient meshes directly
<bert_> thorwil: yeah that's thru, that's why I say formates like SVG
<bert_> it's just that it makes resizing so easy
<thorwil> i have been playing with synfig. there you can create a gradient that follows a path. and the width of the gradient depends on the stroke width of siad path. that's so wicked and wouldn't fit into SVG
<bert_> throrwil: that would make a huge SVG :P
<troy_s> thorwil: There is a gradient mesh roadmap in place I believe.
<troy_s> thorwil: That is SVG compliant.
<thorwil> troy_s: there has been some brainstorming how it could be done, yes
<troy_s> thorwil: That said, there is nothing wrong with drawing it.
<bert_> I learned some SVG image creation (the code) back in september, I wanted to use it for stats but IE didn't support it so they didn't want me to use it...
<bert_> but it has limitations
<bert_> and the file size can grow if you use things like gradients
<thorwil> SVGs compress very well
<thorwil> and aren't SVGZs part of the spec?
<troy_s> thorwil: Not to mention that they work amazingly well in version control systems as they are xml files.
<bert_> yeah, it's text, so it compresses very easy
<thorwil> and here i am, still using *01.xxx, *02.xxx :)
<bert_> lol :p
<bert_> say, learning the gimp or inkscape (but learning as in "I can use this program properly and know how to do prety most every usefull tool) ?
<bert_> it that hard ?
<troy_s> bert_: Yes.  Inkscape is damn hard to 'learn' as there are almost always new things added weekely in subtle and not so subtle ways.
<thorwil> yes. about 18 hard
<troy_s> bert_: It is rather evolutionary... if you run with an SVN version, you just sort of go 'Ok ... that's different'.  Not to mention that the actual program does a lot more than what is documented.
<bert_> lol
<bert_> and the gimp ?
<troy_s> bert_: Sometimes a feature is a hidden keystroke because it is still in development, or it was just something added that came in under the radar.
<bert_> or is inkscape just so much better that we don't have to talk about the gimp :P
<thorwil> no
<thorwil> depends on the task
<troy_s> bert_: Depends.  If you want to do any sort of high end photo manipulation, I would avoid the GIMP and go with Blender.
<bert_> blender ?
<troy_s> http://blender.org
<thorwil> only if you like noodles
<bert_> ow you don't mean blender 3D :P
<troy_s> bert_: It is about the only tool that will let you adjust raw files properly.
<troy_s> bert_: And nodal compositing has been the defacto professional standard in high end imaging for a long long time.
<thorwil> oh, that's new to me
<bert_> can you edit pictures in blender 3D ?
<thorwil> yes
<troy_s> bert_: Yes.  Depends on what you mean by 'edit' of course.
<bert_> lol
<troy_s> bert_: You can do full compositing, etc.  There are a few lower level paint functions as well.
<thorwil> bert_: i think after an investment of only 4 or 5 hours, you might have found out where and how to edit pictures in it :)
<bert_> I tried to learn 3D moddeling with blender 2 years ago I think, but it was quite hard, to many key combinations and buttons :P
<troy_s> bert_: Now that Cinepaint is more or less off the map, Blender is the only resource available for >8bpc imaging.
<troy_s> bert_: You obviously haven't been near Maya or Nuke or Shake :)
<thorwil> troy_s: cinepaint is off the map?
<troy_s> bert_: Let's face it -- all things are complicated if you expect power... even Inkscape is a far cry from 'simple' really.
<troy_s> thorwil: Yes.
<bert_> maya is properietary and comercial right
<troy_s> thorwil: I believe it is not in 8.04 for example.
<troy_s> bert_: Yes.
<troy_s> bert_: The visual effects industry, in a roundabout way, have turned into great supporters of open standards
<bert_> yeah, but is inkscape as complicated as the blender interface ?
<thorwil> no
<thorwil> not even close
<troy_s> bert_: Because they, unlike most people who preach Photoshop etc., realize that particular applications server particular roles in their workflow.
<troy_s> bert_: No.  But getting the full horsepower out of Inkscape is at least as involved with the learning curve.
<thorwil> bert_: i think inkscape has a very low barrier to entry
<bert_> well, photoshop is evil :P
<troy_s> bert_: not really evil, but the people who are responsible for the huge budget productions can't rely on a single tool.  It just won't deliver.
<troy_s> bert_: Hence the rather ubiquitous nature of OpenEXR
<troy_s> bert_: Every single professional app on the map needs to support that format or provide a way to get to and from it.
<bert_> well, photoshop is just so pushed into people, you can't go around it
<bert_> it's everywhere
<thorwil> pushed?
<bert_> and it's always very expensive (and also pirated)
<troy_s> bert_: Most of the mainstream productions houses out there have a good deal of in house proprietary apps.
<bert_> yeah, if you speak about artwork people seem to automatically think "photoshop"
<troy_s> bert_: Hell... extend that to the video game industry as well... in-house tools are all over.
<thorwil> i was under the impression that every kid, grandma and the dog have a copy of it to brigehtn some holiday pictures. illegal copy in most cases, of course
<troy_s> bert_: Photoshop does what it does amazingly well.
<troy_s> bert_: But there are zealots who prefer Corel Painter for example.
<thorwil> after all these years it would be sad if it didn't
<bert_> I have a copy of CS3 over here :P
<troy_s> bert_: It really is ... irrelevant.
<thorwil> i mean, it's not from microsoft
<troy_s> bert_: The ease of piracy is yet one more problem that FOSS is up against.
<bert_> yeah that's thru
<troy_s> bert_: When it comes to art though, ultimately, it is the ability of the individual.
<thorwil> bert_: painter is made for digital painting, not manipulating photos. of course there's huge overlap
<troy_s> bert_: And the willingness / want for change.
<bert_> indeed
<troy_s> thorwil: Photoshop has more or less grown into the poor man's compositor.
<troy_s> thorwil: Layers is ... dated as hell.
<troy_s> s/is/are
<bert_> the problem here with many of the people I know is that they are afraid of change (speaking of FOSS)
<thorwil> bert_: like troy here would beat any noob with a pc and offset printer just using potatoe stamps ;)
<troy_s> Gah.  Hardly.
<troy_s> I am just a mookie hack of no consequence.
<troy_s> I am still awaiting someone to arrive on the scene with some ability and show the nay sayers what is possible.
<troy_s> bert_: Strange thing that eh?
<bert_> well, not really
<bert_> the one will come
<troy_s> bert_: We have a culture that has become uber-conservative.  The only real way to compete now will be to unleash the true potential for innovation.
<bert_> he will follow the fat pinguin right to zenity :P
<troy_s> bert_: We are trapped in a culture that lauds the absolutely backwards work in Fedora 8 or the new SUSE.  We have much to learn.
<bert_> troy_s: how do you mean, the linux operating system is more innovative then vista, that's for usre :P
<thorwil> troy_s: the funny thing is, now that gimp will have a nodal system as underpinnings (gegl), the interaction architect working on it wants to hide that aspect and the developers seem to agree
<troy_s> bert_: Actually, most of what I see every day (and I try to absorb as much as I can) is a shoddy imitation of a poor duplication.
<bert_> how do you mean troy_s ?
<troy_s> thorwil: Yeah... exactly.  Lack of experience in the real world perhaps.  Creating a powerful tool with nodal compositing at its core would be extremely attractive to a number of extremely high profile users.
<troy_s> bert_: Somewhere at our core is the geeky insecurity factor -- the inability to be something distinctive and new.
<bert_> well, I don't see that in ubuntu to be onest
<troy_s> bert_: We have grown quite a bit over the past even four years in this regard, but the attitude still persists underneath the decision making process.
<bert_> (and I'm probably now going to hear that ubuntu is made to easy and lacks functionallity but I don't agree to thatÃ 
<bert_> *)
<bert_> so you mean that linux users think they are better then windows users, and that that is our problem ?
<troy_s> bert_: Not from me.  I spent 100% of my life on free software.  It isn't an option to discuss how something doesn't work etc.
<thorwil> no, the thing is more that there's almost alyways a commercial model app or system that is being copied to some degre
<troy_s> thorwil: +1
<troy_s> bert_: That is exactly the problem.
<bert_> well, I can't deny that
<troy_s> bert_: Part of that is probably the nature of dev -- SVN and CVS weren't so great with 'branches'.
<troy_s> bert_: The reality is that there _are_ some amazingly gifted creative types out there with fascinating and new ideas.
<thorwil> but luckily, there are examples like ardour, starting out as a protools clone and now changing more and more into a thing of its own
<bert_> I like to laugh with people who are complaining about some virusses and then i just come and delete them from their windows boxes and then I think, thank God I run linux
<troy_s> bert_: I want to see more of what _they_ see.
<troy_s> thorwil: Probably a maturity thing.
<bert_> so you think linux is to busy trying to beat windows by making stuff there already is
<bert_> and that they should be busy making stuff there isn't yet
<bert_> right ?
<thorwil> troy_s: as much as i'm in love with solid design processes from the start, thsi copy first and then see approach can work nicely
<thorwil> bert_: right
<troy_s> bert_: Personally, if we are talking about pushing the future forward and innovation, the terms 'Apple' and 'Microsoft' have no place in the sentence.
<troy_s> bert_: Nor the term 'beat'.
<bert_> yeah, you have a point
<troy_s> bert_: Relative world.  Who is the "Toughest fighter"?  What is the "best piece of art"?  What is the "best food"?
<thorwil> well, on that perspective it's all about being as good as possible
<bert_> but I'm afraid that you're not going to get the competif part out of the linux geek...
<thorwil> i wouldn't want to
<troy_s> thorwil: I think the design process depends on your team.  As J. Ive has said time and time again, the thing he will remember from his work isn't the work, but the process.
<troy_s> bert_: The number one factor to getting Linux into mainstream is to have everyone who is working on it realize they aren't a good audience.
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> and arguably, Free Software is mainstream now.
<troy_s> the bigger fight comes.
<bert_> well, 2008 is the year of linux according to Linus Torvalds :p
<bert_> (when was the year he hasn't said that ? )
<troy_s> bert_: I'd say that when a product or item gets onto the BBC or the Wall Street Journal, it happened.  That happened this year with at least a few products.
<troy_s> bert_: The demon is in the details.
<troy_s> bert_: Art and design start taking a center stage now.
<troy_s> bert_: Nebulous concepts such as presence and such.
<thorwil> how can they with so few designers around?
<bert_> well, linux will come in the news soon, if more and more goverments switch to linux
<troy_s> bert_: We at Ubuntu still can't avoid huge gaffs... Look at www.ubuntu.com as a starting point.
<bert_> and I think that'll happen soon
<bert_> I'm on ubuntu
<troy_s> thorwil: It is certainly a fight.
<bert_> ubuntu.com is my start page :P
<bert_> how do you mean gaffs (don't know the word :S)
<troy_s> bert_: Problem / flops / mistake
<thorwil> no-noes, mistakes to be ashamed of
<bert_> what kind of mistakes are there on the ubuntu site ?
<thorwil> oh, an ubuntu doodle
<troy_s> bert_: There would be a few if you were looking.
<thorwil> now google is the model ;)
<bert_> well, there are some pretty useless things on the website
<bert_> and some things should be more userfriendly
<troy_s> bert_:  The main issue is probably that getting to the right presentation takes a good deal of time.  Last week it was an extremely poorly chocked up advertisement for Dell computers.
<bert_> but I think it's a lot easier then other Open Source project site's
<troy_s> bert_: "Userfriendly" -- I despise that term as much as the "usability" one.
<bert_> how should I call it then ?
<troy_s> bert_: Not what you call it, think about what it means.
<bert_> it means being easy, structured, fast, etc.
<troy_s> bert_: Is it a universal truth akin to the speed of light, or something completely rooted in the 'user'
<troy_s> bert_: Really?
<troy_s> bert_: Follow up question -- what is 'easy'?
<bert_> yeah, that's something personal...
<troy_s> bert_: TheMuso's idea of 'easy' is a far far cry from mine, and as it should be.
<bert_> I see what you mean
<troy_s> bert_: The golden rule of all art and design -- who is the viewer?
<troy_s> (hell all of mathematics for that matter too ;) )
<bert_> that's kind of like making a site
<bert_> who's the public who you're making something for, and then make sure the site is build for that kind of people
<bert_> (I'm a webdesigner so I like to look at things from that direction)
<troy_s> bert_: Art and design, at its core, is language.
<troy_s> bert_: That means you need to figure out a few basics -- WHO are you communicating to, WHAT you are communicating, and HOW you are going to do it.
<troy_s> bert_: As with language, it shifts.
<bert_> I see your points
<troy_s> bert_: At one point in the pre-Renaissance era, people used to 'center punch' every item compositionally for example.
<bert_> yeah that's something you have to keep in mind
<bert_> that's quite hard too
<troy_s> bert_: That was entirely swept away with the advent of what you accept today -- classical composition.
<bert_> I always seem to make things too ugly and too difficult
<thorwil> bert_: sheesh, why? :)
<bert_> I make a lot of webapps which are only used by site admins, so I make them black with white text and admmin terms
<bert_> *admin
<troy_s> bert_: Ugly is relative.  If it is ugly to you, you should probably spend a little time figuring out exactly what is pretty for you.
<bert_> but you can't do that on a normal site
<bert_> white background with black text, that's my basic understanding of ugly
<troy_s> lol
<bert_> and then you also have strange color combinations but that's no problem
<thorwil> in some cases no design is just the right design :)
<bert_> (except for my first site off course :p )
<bert_> but I have to go now
<bert_> off to the shower :P
<bert_> thanks for this interesting discussion
<bert_> I learned A LOT !!!
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL.  That's still a design choice.  The idea of 'no' implies the completely invisible other.
<thorwil> bert_: get clean well! ;)
<bert_> hope to see you again some time ;)
<troy_s> bert_: Lol.  Sad.  That will pass.
<troy_s> :)
<bert_> byebye ;)
<thorwil> troy_s: if you take design to mean the process, then not.
<thorwil> ooh, they're using the word "intuitive" on the art list now
<thorwil> window switching by sucking on nipples? ;)
<thorwil> (and i have been told even that has to be learned to be done properly)
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL
<troy_s> thorwil: I would think that statement is correct judging from how many new mothers have trouble with it.
<troy_s> thorwil: Amen.
<troy_s> thorwil: The relativism of the world is a rather scary thing.
<thorwil> relatively, yes
<thorwil> time for me again ... cya!
<troy_s> thorwil: It reminds me of that quote regarding Zen (think of it what you will) that goes something like "Before I studied Zen, men were men and mountains were mountains.  While I studied Zen, men were mountains and mountains were men.  When I completed my studies, men were men and mountains were mountains."
<troy_s> thorwil: Toodles.
<salty-horse> hi. I'm trying to track bug with the arrows of the Human theme, but I can't find the arrow image sources. can anyone help?
<troy_s> salty-horse: I believe the arrows would be in the Human icon set.
<salty-horse> no file -iname-d "*arrow*"
<salty-horse> and I found nothing in the theme definition files
<salty-horse> (I don't know much about themes)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-02
<DanaG> Ooh: http://level-studios.com/assets/images/large/hp27.jpg
<DanaG> That's kind of cool, except for the logo...
<DanaG> ... and except for the fact that I can't find a bigger version... anywhere.  At all.
<_MMA_> DanaG: Lemmie dig around. I know a couple of people. Maybe I can get a bigger one.
<DanaG> That's from Level Studios, with HP.
<DanaG> Used to be "Web Associates".
<DanaG> I ran into them at the job fair at Cal Poly the other day.
<DanaG> http://level-studios.com/work/?client=1
<DanaG> There are a couple of other nice images there, too.
<DanaG> Oh yeah, have you seen the "GlassyBleu" theme on the HP Mini "MIE" laptop?
<DanaG> It's publicly available on the canonical partner repo, but not publicized anywhere.
<DanaG> It's the first dark theme I've ever seen that isn't the slightest bit gloomy for me.  I still prefer my bright themes, though.
<DanaG> Odd that they'd produce that artwork, but never use it anywhere.
<DanaG> This also reminds me of Ubuntu:  http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii78/ollirac123/HP/HPEspresso.jpg
<DanaG> Oh yeah, I'm also curious what HP's terms of use / license are for that netbook theme of theirs.
<DanaG> And the wallpaper.
 * _MMA_ clicks
<DanaG> I don't have a screenshot of the netbook theme, though.
<DanaG> http://h30434.www3.hp.com/psg/board/message?board.id=OS&thread.id=3598
<DanaG> There's the repo; you can apt-get source the theme.
<DanaG> I think it's glassy-bleu-theme
<savvas> why the obsession around HP?:p
<DanaG> They do do some cool stuff.
<DanaG> And I just thought that was a cool wallpaper, too.
<savvas> ah they paid them to make wallpapers for them?
<savvas> they look wonderful :)
<DanaG> I'm an engineer, not a graphic artist, though.
<DanaG> Heh, a bit of not-so-good design: the home page is not an item in the side list.  It's only reachable through the logo.
<Yasumoto> kwwii: Do you happen to have the original source for the Global Bug Jam logo?
<DanaG> "Bug Jam" makes me think of food, for some reason.
<savvas> Yasumoto: if you don't get a reply, try merge something out of: http://www.clker.com/search/globe/1 http://www.clker.com/clipart-3331.html http://www.clker.com/clipart-cancel.html :)
<Yasumoto> savvas: awesome, thanks a bunch :)
<Yasumoto> DanaG: gross?
<Yasumoto> :)
<DanaG> gross what?
<DanaG> oh
<DanaG> bug jam.
<Yasumoto> haha, yeah
<savvas> np :)
<savvas> Yasumoto: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-bugsquad/2009-February/001270.html - we'll probably get a reply by tomorrow
<Yasumoto> savvas: ah, good call. I probably should've done that in the first place
<Yasumoto> I think Flannel spoke to dholbach, and he mentioned kwwii might have it
<savvas> well at least this way you know someone will read it :P
<Yasumoto> exactly
<savvas> anyways, I'm going to catch some 2-3 hours of sleep :)
<savvas> cheers
<Yasumoto> have fun, talk to you later
<kwwii> Yasumoto: yeah, probably, somewhere
<thorwil> kwwii: hi. are you aware of the upcoming gtk# theming hackfest?
<thorwil> ah, canonical is a sponsor, so nm
<dilomo> thorwil: hi
<thorwil> hello dilomo
<dilomo> what hack fest are you talking about?
<thorwil> dilomo: http://live.gnome.org/GTK%2B/NewThemeApi/Hackfest
<dilomo> interesting read
<dilomo> thorwil: I want to ask you about the following image:
<dilomo> http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotthewidgetfactff5.png
<dilomo> how do you find the treeview (ignore the green for now)
<thorwil> dilomo: the frame around the whole thing works against your scrollbars
<dilomo> the is still wip
<dilomo> now I'm working on the selected image and the items
<dilomo> the scrollbars are still to be changed
<thorwil> dilomo: the small gap on the left of the selected-item-background ... it should either be larger to look more wanted, or (better, i think) not exist at all
<dilomo> larger you say? now it's 2px maybe 3 will be ok
<thorwil> it's a detail that adds nothing and could be eliminated
<thorwil> dilomo: be careful about the selection color, it goes into a different direction that the orange used elsewhere
<dilomo> yes this is the problem I'm trying to solve now
<dilomo> I want this to show that the bg is darker (e.g sorted) but this changes color
<dilomo> any ideas how I can chnage this?
<thorwil> i don't quite understand
<thorwil> you want the selection color to be different on the active column?
<dilomo> it is different
<dilomo> and is different depending on even/odd rows too
<dilomo> but as i add gray behind the orange - the result is starting to be very "durty" color and I don't
<dilomo> know how to make the sorted colum prelight color different (but not brighter) then the rest of the row
<thorwil> instead of mixing with gray, you could change the tone. maybe to yellow
<dilomo> yes that is possible. let me try
<dilomo> http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4685/screenshotthewidgetfactuc4.png
<dilomo> hod does this look?
<thorwil> dilomo: ok. maybe make it a tad stronger. and then do something about the progressbar color :)
<dilomo> why progressbar?
<thorwil> dilomo: the color(s) for the item selection is more difficult, so it makes sense to adjust the progressbar color afterwards
<dilomo> sorted columns will be rare compaerd to cust columns
<dilomo> but all colors arein the same gammut of orange (buttons, combos, sliders, check ... treeviews)
<dilomo> but now after I introduce this new treeview I don't have to change all that, right?
<thorwil> dilomo: it's just that the orange on the prog-bars looks overly intense
<dilomo> yes it is  because people should see progressbars that appear and usually they don't encounter too often
<dilomo> in New Wave 0.6.x it was lighte and it just felt washed out
<dilomo> but I sill may change it .
<dilomo> I will make some tests before I d publish any of the seen here (probably a month)
<dilomo> thorwil: do you have any svg runnug jackalopes
<thorwil> dilomo: nope
<dilomo> I was thinking of a wallpaper idea: runnung rabbit whit
<dilomo> nicely done forest (motion blurred) in bg
<dilomo> that will clearly illustrate jaunty -fastly moving
<dilomo> because all wallpapers we have are with still jackalopes
<thorwil> i didn't feel like drawing the tail end of a rabbit ;)
<dilomo> :) not exactly what I meant but
<dilomo> I can't describe it with words
<thorwil> dilomo: if you can't paint it, it won't happen. for me, the topic jaunty wallpapers with a jackalope is closed :)
<dilomo> I can paint it but with brush and water not Inkscape
<dilomo> so we will never see this :)
<thorwil> dilomo: nobody said a wallpaper has to be made with inkscape
<thorwil> nothing speaks against using a scan
<dilomo> but scans are bad and can't accuire the corect colors
<dilomo> besides I don't have scanner :)
<dilomo> I give up for today
<dilomo> these treeviews are awful
<luisbg> kwwii, happy b-day old fart
<luisbg> :)
<knome> *fart*
<thorwil> kwwii: happy birthday ken!
<Sergio_> Hello! Will Ubuntu 9.04 (Jaunty) have completely new theme?
<_MMA_> No
<DBO> Sergio_, no, they never do that... why?  I don't know... we should riot because they need to
<_MMA_> hahahaha. Ahh to be blissfully ignorant. ;)
<DBO> _MMA_, i am being sarcastic
<_MMA_> DBO: It didn't come through. You have to watch it especially when there are people not used to the flow of a channel. New folks. Or just people that don't know each others style.
<DBO> i thought the suggestion of the riot would be enough
<DBO> _MMA_, seriously though, why does the ubuntu theme seem pretty stagnant these days
<DBO> i mean I know we can always get themes of gnome-look and things like that
<_MMA_> DBO: Though I see you in here from time to time, you're not that active. So I don't know. :) Now, think about someone new, like Sergio. Who I will also bet that his 1st language isn't English.
<_MMA_> DBO: The theme situation is what it is. I could list my thoughts as to why but it really does no good in the end.
<DBO> how are you related to it anyhow?
<_MMA_> And really, I don't know why it's such a big deal. MS and Apple don't radically change things in the UI every 6 months why should *any* linux distro? Being default isn't the end-all.
<_MMA_> DBO: I develop Ubuntu Studio.
<_MMA_> So I know the other *buntu guys pretty well.
<_MMA_> Continuing on my previous thought: GNOME-Look and the like are great IMO.
<luisbg> _MMA_, apple hasn't changed Aqua in 3 or 4 years
<luisbg> maybe 5
<_MMA_> We can get themes from there.
<_MMA_> luisbg: Minor tweaks but yeah. Point is the same.
<luisbg> _MMA_, more compositing than theme, yeah :)
<Sergio_> I heard many times before 8.10 release that default theme will be completely change. And don't remember ubuntu competitors: Mandriva, Fedora e.t.c. They constantly improve visual appearance.
<_MMA_> Sergio_: They make subtle incremental changes like Ubuntu has.
<_MMA_> If you take the # of Ubuntu releases and put them together it's obviously the evolution. Though, admittedly more subtle last few releases. But the same can be said for the above mentioned distros.
<_MMA_> The future look and feel is completely out any kind of community hands. It's Canonicals (Marks) show. We can do things on the side but Ubuntu is Canonicals product and they are taking steps to craft the look and feel they want to project. We might see pieces of it in Jaunty, but more likely +1.
<Sergio_> OK. Thanks for answers.
<nhaines> kwwii: happy birthday!  :D
<kwwii> nhaines: thanks :-)
<kwwii> nhaines: how did you know it was my birthday?
<kwwii> well, now I guess it is over :p
<kwwii> now I am just an old(er) person
<_MMA_> kwwii: We have spies everywhere.
<kwwii> :p
 * _MMA_ hands kwwii a motorized cart. Asks about recent hip replacement.
<_MMA_> (slips him some cialis on the sly)
<kwwii> dude, my mom and my brother have both had two hip replacements
<kwwii> my dad has had 3 knees
<kwwii> my step-dad had both hops done as well as his spine fused
<_MMA_> kwwii: Ouch. Future's kinda grim. :P
<kwwii> no worries, I doubt I will ever get that old
 * _MMA_ only really has high cholesterol to look forward to. Will die in like my 90's. Old and mean.
<kwwii> haha, I was trying to work on a background based on some marketing material
<kwwii> so I sent an email to the company and asked for the files
<kwwii> and they sent me one composited psd file (one layer, etc)
<kwwii> they might have well sent a jpg
<kwwii> so I asked again for the files
<kwwii> and they said they were having trouble finding them, they might have lost them
<_MMA_> Oh. My. God.
<kwwii> so then julain sends an email asking them for the files
<_MMA_> *sigh*
<kwwii> and they send him, per post, a cd
<_MMA_> kwwii: So he see's the shit you've had to go through?
<_MMA_> (generally)
<kwwii> which he gives to me, and I boot my mac (which I bring with me nkow as well as my ibm) and the Cd is blank
<kwwii> a pop-up appears asking me what to do with the blank CD
<kwwii> it's like...fsck, I cannot even pay for something
<_MMA_> hahahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahaha
 * _MMA_ just shakes head. :)
<_MMA_> The silliness of it all.
<kwwii> but they spent the time printing labels for the cd, etc
<_MMA_> :)
<kwwii> oh well, time for sleep
<kwwii> night all
<kwwii> _MMA_: btw, I am goign towork out the details of the email switch tomorrow
<kwwii> so if something happens and nothing works, keep a cool head and help the others if possible :)
<kwwii> you never know
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-03
<dashua> Whoa, this new fade effect in Nautilus is nice when changing wallpaper
<_MMA_> dashua: ?
<_MMA_> Ahh... I see.
<dashua> Pretty cool, eh?
<_MMA_> Could be a little smoother here but that could be a driver thing. I got some other related bugs.
<dashua> Oh, seems pretty smooth here.  Yeah, maybe a driver.
<dashua> Are you 180.27 now?
<_MMA_> Intel
<dashua> Ah
<dashua> That's probably it.
<_MMA_> I can't enable Compiz yet either.
<_MMA_> No big deal.
<dashua> Oh man.  That would be a killer for me.
<dashua> They should have the Intel driver issues worked out by release.
<dashua> I can't believe how rock solid Nvidia has come in the last two years.
<dashua> Still issues, but very view. Although, I'm not a PC gamer.
<_MMA_> I got bit by the titlebar bug but upgrading from 177 fived it.
<dashua> Ah yes.  I have that on my downstairs PC with Intrepid on a 7600 GS
<dashua> I think that's one of the longest standing Ubuntu bugs that the Human theme always take the blame for.
<_MMA_> Yeah. My card is a 7950GT.
<dashua> It goes from Compiz > Nvidia > Human Theme
<dashua> and the all over again
<dashua> I think it was on the 6000/7000 series
<dashua> I never saw it on my 8400 GS
<dashua> _MMA_: https://dl-web.getdropbox.com/get/Photos/Screenshot-19.png?w=48841027
<dashua> Still need to work out the check and radio buttons, but it's coming along.
<DanaG> Here's the glassybleu theme:  http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette/screenshot-glassybleu.png
<gaminggeek> DanaG: do you want some crits?
<DanaG> Not my theme, actually -- it's HP's theme on the Mini 1000 netbook.
<gaminggeek> ah ok
<gaminggeek> well IMHO its way to dark :)
<DanaG> It's publicly available.. yet not publicized.
<DanaG> Yeah, it's not usable on anything but max brightness.
<DanaG> My current theme, for comparison:  http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette/screenshot-orange.png
<gaminggeek> I'm still using the fantastic dust theme :)
<gaminggeek> nice theme if you like orange :)
<DanaG> I've found that the color and brightness of the theme I'm using can quite drastically affect my mood.
<DanaG> Orange is about the most cheerful color I like.
<DanaG> MMA: oh yeah, if you were curious about that theme, there it is.  Removing underscores to avoid an explicit "ping".
 * _MMA_ waves.
 * thorwil waves back
<DanaG> Ooh, glassy-bleu theme.  http://www.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette/screenshot-glassybleu.png
<dilomo> thorwil: you were right that the selected images of the treeview should go to the ned of the widget
<dilomo> gtk currently does not support spaces above and below the firts and last items
<dilomo> here's the last progress:
<dilomo> http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1905/screenshotthewidgetfactjc6.png
<dilomo> I changed the header style abit too and now I'm stuck with the progressbars
<dilomo> any ideas ?
<thorwil> dilomo: i would reduce the glossiness
<dilomo> the glossines of what?
<thorwil> progressbars
<thorwil> to instead try to make them look flat, like set into the main surface (level). this because they're non-interactive, nothing to "touch"
<thorwil> dilomo: i think you should leave the text of the selected item in the tree view black
<dilomo> it is black when it has focus
<dilomo> but when the focus is gone (in the header now) it becomes lighter
<thorwil> dilomo: not having a border around the whole tree view is an improvement, but the gap above/to-the-left of the scrollbars doesn't look right
<dilomo> true
<thorwil> dilomo: you could without any change the the active column header. you already have the column bg and the sorting triangle
<dilomo> I made it the gap only to see clearly the treeview
<dilomo> and now I don't know how to integrate the scrollbars to it
<dilomo> the old design makes the edges with srollbars too heavy
<dilomo> and making the further away is not verry visually connecting to the scrolled window
<dilomo> the old ones look like this:
<dilomo> http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=87134&file1=87134-1.jpg&file2=87134-2.jpg&file3=87134-3.jpg&name=New+Wave
<thorwil> dilomo: i guess there's no way to have the vertical scrollbar start below the column headers?
<dilomo> nope
<thorwil> dilomo: you could try to make the headers look raised, as if floating above everything else
<dilomo> thorwil: even above the outer border? What would this win for me?
<thorwil> dilomo: it should make it look detached from the scrollbar
<dilomo> hmm I'm not really sure about that because what the header is in its nature is button. I use some tricks to make it integrate better in the scrolled window but  I can't imagine how more I can raise the headers than in the following preview:
<dilomo> http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1905/screenshotthewidgetfactjc6.png
<thorwil> i see no difference
<dilomo> compare to this:
<dilomo> http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=3&id=87134&file1=87134-1.jpg&file2=87134-2.jpg&file3=87134-3.jpg&name=New+Wave
<dilomo> the headers in the second pic are sunken
<thorwil> http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1905/screenshotthewidgetfactjc6.png is much better
<dilomo> yes that are the new ehaders that I'm making
<dilomo> probably I don't know how to express myself in words but if I connect the scrollbars and additional gray line will be added thus resulting in 2x dark lines at the right and bottom of the treeview
<dilomo> that's why I want to make a new design for the progress bars that should better integrate them and possibly not make 2px line
<thorwil> i don't think that has to be a problem
<dilomo> but on the link (loner and of gnome look) you can see it looks blurry and not sharp enough
<dilomo> I tried to face it as dropped shadow but not quite good
<dilomo> fake*
 * dilomo dinner
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-05
<lianimator> question: if my wacom is a different aspect ratio from my screen's, is it safe to do artwork with it or should I change my screen to fit my wacom's ratio?
<knome> doesn't really matter imho
<knome> wysiwyg
<knome> if It looks ok, it's ok
<lianimator> it could affect my drawing on paper no?
<Cimi> lianimator, try to draw a circle on your wacom. if it looks correct then it is ok
<knome> drawing with wacom different anyway
<lianimator> if I look at the screen and draw, it's okay.
<knome> + is
<lianimator> but if I look at the wacom and draw a circle. it's a fat oval
<Cimi> maybe you have to change your wacom sensivity
<Cimi> just like touchpads
<lianimator> the thing is, my wacom is 6x8. whereas my screen is wide
<lianimator> I usually change my screen to be 1027x768 as to keep the same ratio, but that wastes space
<Spear> hey all
<Spear> I've been thinking for a while about contributing to Ubuntu but have never had the time before now.
<Spear> I was wondering about whether I could be of any use to the Artwork team (and hopefully a few others)
<Spear> Do you have to use free tools to contribute to Ubuntu, or doesn't it matter as long as any work done is offered with a free liscence?
<Cimi> Spear, it should not matter... but for icons inkscape is good enough
<Spear> Hey Cimi, I am a huge fan of your work :)
<Cimi> while gimp is a bit different, since if supports 16bit colorspaces just for few gegl operations
<Cimi> Spear, thanks :)
<Spear> Have been using your themes since 06
<Cimi> oh when I started ;)
<Spear> Yeah, I found your work though gnome-look
<Spear> Thing is, I have a Macbook Pro and an Acer Aspire One
<Spear> The Acer is really only for travelling
<Cimi> answer: use the macbook pro
<Spear> right.
<Spear> But, Can I get tools for the mac?
<Spear> I have Adobe Photoshop
<Cimi> i don't know if inkscape works on osx
<Spear> CS3
<Cimi> as said
<Cimi> inkscape is good enough
<Cimi> for icons
<Cimi> while gimp suffers of some operations that works just in 8bit mode
<Spear> yeah, Inkscape is compiled for OSX
<Spear> I can't use Gimp it messes with my mind
<Spear> I'm hopelessly addiced to Photoshop, I tried to switch to the Gimp and it didn't work out :(
<Cimi> oh no it isn't
<Spear> ?
<Cimi> I used photoshop when I was 13 till 16
<Cimi> but then I switched to gimp
<Cimi> yes the first days were hard
<Cimi> but it's a great tool
 * Spear is back after consuming a bowl of Porridge
<Spear> :-)
<Spear> so with the artwork team, whats the best way to actually get contribution to ubuntu
<Spear> Is it to watch the mailing list?
 * _MMA_ waves.
<thorwil> _MMA_: hi! say, free culture showcase deadline on friday means until the end of that day, right?
<_MMA_> thorwil: Hmm... I'd PM jono and ask.
<_MMA_> jono on Freenode. He's on now.
<thorwil> so that's a yes
<_MMA_> cool
<thorwil> good thing that oggenc -q -1 is quite bearable :)
<_MMA_> haha
<_MMA_> thorwil: You usin' mono and cuttin' the sampling rate down? 22kHz or something?
<thorwil> _MMA_: no, this mix needs stereo badly and it looks like i don't have to touch the sampling rate
<_MMA_> Ahh nice.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-06
<_MMA_> dashua: Was it you who has been using Breathe?
<dashua> _MMA_: Yep.  For quite some time actually.
<_MMA_> Ok. You get yesterdays updates?
<dashua> Yep.  Looks good
<_MMA_> Ok. Cool.
<_MMA_> I gotta do some work to the index.theme file soon. Though it works, it's a bit messy I think.
<_MMA_> funny: http://www.zdnet.com.au/insight/software/soa/Is-it-Windows-7-or-KDE-4-/0,139023769,339294810,00.htm
<dashua> Yeah.  I noticed them in Banshee once I pulled.
<dashua> Theme is coming along great
<_MMA_> dashua: Thanx. Sebastian is rockin' it ATM. I wish we had some others involved. :(
<dashua> I would help, but I'm no artist =/
<_MMA_> Sure. :)
<_MMA_> I'd even like someone that could hack on the mimetypes. We have a base one for now. Just need someone to put them together.
<_MMA_> Maybe I'll take this to a wider audience. Blog about it or go to the forums.
<_MMA_> kwwii: You lurking?
<dashua> Yeah.  People will bite on this theme.
<dashua> I use it in all my of screenshots.
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Nodoka+Dust+?content=98574
<dashua> People are digging this it seems.
<dashua> Almost 2000 downloads in less than a week.
<dashua> Still needs a lot of work.
<dashua> No feedback at all on the ml, but I guess that is to be expected.
 * _MMA_ looks
<_MMA_> dashua: I guess I gotta get the icons for the USB drives done. :P
<dashua> Yeah :)
<_MMA_> That and the archives. I'm gonna take those from Oqygen for now.
<_MMA_> Hmm... Or maybe I'll as Sebastian to do a base one, then I'll make the rest.
<dashua> It seems fairly complete, just a few missing here and there.
<_MMA_> I'm glad you think so. There's *TONS* to do in reality. :P
<dashua> I bet.  I know there's a lot of work involved.
<_MMA_> dashua: I got updates for the user-trash-full (paper on floor wasn't shadowed) and folders going up soon.
<dashua> Awesome.  The trash icon is one of the best attributes of the theme.
<dashua> bbib
<dashua> a*
<_MMA_> k
<_MMA_> dashua: You might wanna pull rev.30 of Breathe. I did some cleanup. Removed icons where their shoulda been simlinks and such.
<dashua> Sweet.  I'll pull it when I get home.
<thorwil> savvas: counting track now on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase, not one bit to soon, as today is deadline :)
<_MMA_> dashua: Crap. The updated folders Seb gave me had a typo in the metadata so I gotta push a new rev.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-07
<dashua> _MMA_: Yummy.  Just got home. Pulling now. :)
<_MMA_> dashua: rev.32 adds more links. Fixes where some folders are shown. The Breathe folder is now shown in the theme chooser as well.
<dashua> Woohoo
<dashua> I'm getting a lot of messaged on Ubuntu Art requesting the icon-theme.
<_MMA_> Say it's top-secret. :P
 * dashua thinks a package should be added soon ;]
<dashua> I haven't replied yet
<dashua> I'm almost done my Dust revision, few more tweaks
<_MMA_> dashua: I wanna work out a couple of more things over the next week. I also wanna have Sebastians blessing for a 0.1 release.
<dashua> Breathe goes really well with it
<dashua> Awesome
<dashua> He is a talented artist
<_MMA_> I'm using Breathe with Dust also.
<_MMA_> The "power" and "start-here" icons I'd /really/ like to have worked out before release.
<dashua> Very important icons, at least on an Ubuntu default install.  Main icons at far left and right of the panel.
<dashua> I like the style of the Oxygen ones.  With the highlights.
<dashua> They would look great over a dark panel.
<_MMA_> I was thinking about taking the Oxygen ones and takin' off the gloss but I wanted to give a chance to someone on the list 1st.
<_MMA_> (the power icons that is)
<_MMA_> I think I'll put out a wider call on the forums today.
<dashua> Yeah, that would look nice.
<dashua> Not a lot of gloss, like an eggshell finish, if that's even possible.
<_MMA_> Just takin' off the gloss parts makes look that way.
<_MMA_> I'll tinker with 'em for a day or so and see how it goes.
<_MMA_> (writing forum post now)
<dashua> Awesome.
<dashua> Ok.  Theme is update on the wiki.  Still need to figure out an Evolution workaround for the New button.
<dashua> Old hacks aren't working.
<dashua> Nice. Breathe folders now in Places on the menu.
<_MMA_> :P
<_MMA_> The outlines still aren't right. Hpefully Seb can shape that up.
<_MMA_> *Hopefully
<dashua> Folders look rounder now.
<dashua> I like that.
<dashua> Or maybe the shadow is doing that.
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-art.org/content/preview.php?preview=2&id=98574&file1=98574-1.jpg&file2=98574-2.jpg&file3=98574-3.jpg&name=Nodoka+Dust+
<dashua> Really goes nice with this nice.
<_MMA_> dashua: So we'll see what happens. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=6693528
<_MMA_> gah. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1062915
<dashua> That should stimulate an interest.
<dashua> This set will be very popular.  I've heard nothing but compliments.
<_MMA_> Hopefully it gets volunteers with some talent. :P
<dashua> Bah. Jaunty's xserver is borked.
<dashua> At least with Nvidia here.
<dashua> Yeah, that'll be nice.
<zniavre> dashua:  you should try to desactivate compiz
 * _MMA_ runs Intel on his Jaunty lappy. (hasn't updated today)
<zniavre> and start it with indirect rendering instead of loose binding
<dashua> I have it working again, but it requires deleting an nvidia control file.
<zniavre> oops im not on ubuntu+1 room sorry
<thorwil> does the new alpha come with another wallpaper?
<zniavre> no it does not
<_MMA_> thorwil: I don't think so. If you wanna see things change like that, you need to use Studio. ;)
<dashua> That light honeycomb wallpaper new?
<dashua> I just noticed it.
<_MMA_> ;)
<_MMA_> I've actually had it for a while, but didn't want to use it on the las release. So it's in now. I have to work on the new GDM a bit. Doesn't feel right yet.
<_MMA_> *last
<dashua> I'm not running Studio, just the artwork.  Looks nice.
<_MMA_> Sure. Like most people. :)
<dashua> Hrm.  If I new how to package it I'd include it with my theme for wider testing.
<dashua> I have it listed in the index, but will appear as error for most.
<_MMA_> Why?
<_MMA_> (will it error)
 * _MMA_ points to the ML. Maybe Ill get some pissy comments. :P
<dashua> Most people will not have the icon-theme.
<dashua> Hopefully, they grab it.
<_MMA_> dashua: Well, you could just set it to Human for now.
 * _MMA_ shrugs.
<dashua> Yeah
<dashua> I'm trying to promote interest.
<_MMA_> Sure, sure.
<dashua> The Human theme is too "bling" for my tastes.  Breathe is just right.
<_MMA_> dashua: One thing I do like from the set are it's flash media icons. I'm going to look at what Oxygen does there. See which is better.
<dashua> Oh yeah.  Like the SD cards?
<dashua> That is nice.
<_MMA_> dashua: Yeah. Those.
<dashua> I'm off, ttyl.
<_MMA_> later
<thorwil> http://pthree.org/2009/02/05/ubuntu-vs-fedora-artwork/
<_MMA_> thorwil: Nice
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-02-08
<ali_> #launchpad
<_MMA_> dashua: *Small* update at rev.33.
<_MMA_> (still needs tinkering. you'll see)
<dashua> I just got the mail for the "start here" icon.  Looks good.
<dashua> That's the finish I had visualized
 * dashua pulls
<_MMA_> dashua: I'm unhappy with the center red dot. I'll play with it more but hopefully it will inspire someone better. ;)
<dashua> Very nice for a first attempt.
<_MMA_> Really, I just got tired of seeing the nasty Tango (or whatever) Ubuntu logo there. Just didn't fit.
<dashua> True, that is very tiring.
<dashua> It's been pretty much been the same icon since the 5.10  =/
<thorwil> savvas: hi! so now i had to lookup how to use memoserv :)  thanks!
<savvas> thorwil: hehe
<savvas> good luck with the project ;) I think it has potential
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-08
<Eiko_> hello
<dashua> zniavre, I must have something wrong here.  Fresh install of Lucid on my downstairs Desktop and still the same issue.
<dashua> Not fetching it.
<thorwil> kwwii: back home?
<kwwii>  thorwil yepp
<kwwii> erm, still learning to type
<kwwii> thorwil: yes, indeed ;)
<kwwii> that was much better :P
<thorwil> lol
 * vish wonders if kwwii is still hung over ;p  [ https://twitter.com/njpatel/statuses/8734074239 ]
<psyke83> hi
<kwwii> shoot, I missed him
<kwwii> vish: nope, much better now ;)
<kwwii> lol, nice
<kwwii> I slept for almost 9 hours on the plane ;)
<kwwii> I was seriously knackered
<kwwii> vish: I am already on top of the theme changes. We're reviewing them today
<vish> kwwii: well , its pretty obvious you were , since you got a special mention ;)
<kwwii> so expect action on this soon
<vish> kwwii: i just sent a merge request
<kwwii> yeah, I saw that. That's why I mentioned it
<vish> ah.. k.
<kwwii> psyke83 send me an email on the weekend
<kwwii> when I was so hung-over :P
<kwwii> vish: did you see psyke83's changes?
<kwwii> vish: you might want to look into that too
<vish> kwwii: hm.. where?
<kwwii> https://code.launchpad.net/~psyke83/human-theme/human-theme
<kwwii> and his merge request ;)
<kwwii> https://code.launchpad.net/~psyke83/human-theme/human-theme/+merge/18747
 * vish tests it
<vish> kwwii: the netbook murrine too you are looking into it?
<vish> i think that branch is controlled by the UNR team
<zniavre> still rgba   = FALSE , sadly
 * vish consoles zniavre  :D
<zniavre> :o)
<kwwii> zniavre: dude, we have a major rgba change in progress
<kwwii> but there is currently an X problem which makes totem and one or two other apps crash
<kwwii> and that is planned to go into upstream gtk
<zniavre> just one or two ?
<vish> kwwii: shall i propose a merge for the old human-netbook theme or ... ?
<zniavre> did you experienced something strange with webkit apps?
<kwwii> vish: hrm, good question
<kwwii> vish: one of the things we discussed in portland was that I'll take care of the art bits for UNR
<kwwii> vish: give me a day on that one and I'll find out
<vish> neat... :)
<kwwii> more work ;)
<vish> kwwii: less booze ;p
<kwwii> LOL
<kwwii> no doubt
<zniavre> :o)
<kwwii> hey, it was the last night of the sprint
<zniavre> happy to learn dev are human being
<kwwii> I was celebrating with my colleagues
<kwwii> when got a *lot* of stuff done last week
<kwwii> oh well, time for a break...bbl
<darkmatter> rgba is a vile beast that needs to die a slow and horrible death
<thorwil> why that, darkmatter?
<vish> thorwil: darkmatter likes it "dark" i guess :D
<darkmatter> thorwil: you mean besides the fact it's yet another gimmick we don't need? (and yes, it is a gimmick). well, primarily because it increases visual clutter
<vish> rgba other than for the metacity is a bit overrated ;)  but not sure what kwwii has got brewing :)
<kwwii> darkmatter: oh, I think when you see what we have planned in action you'll think twice about that
<vish> argh , pun not intended :s^
<kwwii> essentially, it is rgba on a per widget/class basis
<darkmatter> vish: window decorations are fine. but this 'zomg! I can see my lunch through my browser!" crap is rediculous
<kwwii> which opens up worlds of new ideas which are not crap ;)
 * vish envisions kwwii laughing like an evil genius o.0
<darkmatter> kwwii: alas, I will always be against rgba because "it's a gimmick that adds visual clutter" :P
<darkmatter> the only reason windows even did the aero thing was a matter of branding (aka a gimmick ;o)
<kwwii> darkmatter: well, I can understand your position but I hope you (eventually) view what we do with an open mind
<darkmatter> I'm very open minded. and I understand what you're trying to do, but alas it goes against the most basic rules of good design *shrug*
<kwwii> ;)
<kwwii> ooh, sweet: http://www.techcrunch.com/2010/02/01/google-tablet-photos/
<iainfarrell> There's a video too http://www.techcrunch.com/2010/02/01/chrome-os-tablet-video/
<iainfarrell> also, note the way that they sign post the survey for readers
<iainfarrell> unobtrusive, I like it :)
<darkmatter> dear lord. more useless crap. like the iPod XXXL wasn't bad enough
<kwwii> hehe, nice
<kwwii> darkmatter: I wonder if I could think of anything to which you would say "hrm, I don't have an opinion on that" :D
<kwwii> lol, sorry
<kwwii> iainfarrell: erm, they better make screens which clean themsleves. I have very sweaty hands
<kwwii> god, that makes me sound like a child molester or something
<iainfarrell> :)
<iainfarrell> I tend to find with my Android it's not finger prints that are the issue
<iainfarrell> it's when you put the device to your face
<kwwii> I just bought a N900 and found that to be a problem
<iainfarrell> but I still think we're all barking up the wrong tree with touchy stuff
<iainfarrell> hungfu.wordpress.com
<kwwii> lol, you have sweaty ears then ;)
<iainfarrell> see that there blog post
<iainfarrell> I think I'd take that over hands ;)
<kwwii> lol, right
<darkmatter> kwwii: there's plenty I don't have opinions on. unfortunately wasting precious technological resources on crap and more crap doesn't fall into the 'don't have an opinion on' category ;p if I can replace chromeos with a real os instead of 'omg! all my social sites are fullscreen!" and if it actually has a webcam then it may be somewhat useful
<kwwii> iainfarrell: yeah, after the minority report it became clear that stuff like that is neat to look at but horrible, really
<iainfarrell> has to be bad for the neck all that looking down all the time
<kwwii> darkmatter: to be honest, I think chromeOS is still in a very niche market, we'll see how that pans out
<kwwii> I had a tablet from apple years ago (and loved it actually)
<darkmatter> I like how googles video's always make their cramped little ui's/display devices look big enough for ten people to use simultaneously. <3 false advertising
<darkmatter> welp. I need to get the brain working. time to bundle and go for a walk to replenish my oxygen supply
<kwwii> sounds like a good idea - kinda missed that break I mentioned :P
<psyke83> hey
<psyke83> kwwii: are you around?
<kwwii> hi psyke83
<kwwii> we were talking about you earlier
<kwwii> vish updated the themes as well, I pointed him at your stuff
<psyke83> ok
<kwwii> I'll have a discussion later today with some design team colleagues and get back to you on details
<kwwii> psyke83: how's things?
<psyke83> I'm doing fine :)
<kwwii> good!
<psyke83> my laptop died, but I'm back up and running (using an old laptop from a usb drive)
<kwwii> I feel like I took a happy pill today
<kwwii> ouch, I know the feeling
<psyke83> kwwii: there's something else I want to show you, one sec
<psyke83> what's a good site to host pics quickly?
<kwwii> hrm, I use flickr but that's not what you eman
<kwwii> mean
<psyke83> ah imageshack
<kwwii> use the ubuntu paste thingy
<kwwii> yeah, imageshack
<thorwil> http://www.foopics.com/
<vish> psyke83: imagebin
<kwwii> I just put them on my server ;)
<psyke83> I updated UbuntuStudio: http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/8277/ubuntustudio.png
<kwwii> oooh
<kwwii> w00t w00t (is da sound a da police)
<kwwii> not sure about the vertical tabs, but I like the buttons
<kwwii> perhaps a bit less contrast would hep
<kwwii> help
<psyke83> I was thinking that DarkRoom could be updated in a similar way. Here's a quick port (just colours changed, no tweaks yet): http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6731/darkroomtest.png
<kwwii> darkRoom definitely needs updating
<psyke83> sure, those things can be ironed out
<kwwii> I never really intended for darkRoom to go anywhere
<vish> hmm , why does psyke83's gtkrc break the theme for me :(
<kwwii> vish: you do not have the new engine
<psyke83> vish: you need murrine git
<kwwii> I will put it in my ppa, once second
<vish>  bah..
<psyke83> you can probably install lucid's version on karmic too
<kwwii> psyke83: indeed
<vish> psyke83: i'm on lucid
<kwwii> but I'll put it in my ppa just for good measure
<kwwii> vish: the new engine for lucid is coming soon
<vish> k..
<kwwii> vish: let me get you the ppa for lucid, one second
<psyke83> vish: the updated package came just a day or so ago, if your mirror is not up to date or you haven't updated, that's the problem
<kwwii> vish: https://launchpad.net/~ken-vandine/+archive/gnomex
<psyke83> kwwii: it's in the main repo, don't worry
<kwwii> psyke83: cool, I only told them to put it there on friday ;)
<psyke83> prompt service, heh
<vish> hmm , ... breaks with gtk2-engines-murrine 0.90.3+git20091211-0ubuntu1 here
<psyke83> vish: check for terminal output
<vish> psyke83: i'v tried with the twf too , it doesnt give any errors , but it breaks..
<vish> let me restart session..
<vish> brb
<psyke83> kwwii: so will I have a go at updating darkroom properly? And if so, will I put it into a separate branch from Human?
<kwwii> psyke83: sounds excellent!
<psyke83> ok... what's wrong with the vertical tabs?
<psyke83> vish: any luck?
<kwwii> psyke83: I think the gradient is way too pronounced on them
<vish> nope :(
<kwwii> then again, vertical tabs are evil and therefor should look like shit
<kwwii> :P
<kwwii> sorry for the potty mouth
<psyke83> kwwii: I can decrease the highlight_ratio on the tabs alone to make the gradient less noticeable... is the gradient on the rest of the widgets ok?
<kwwii> psyke83: it seems a little too pronounced on the buttons, everything else looks nice
<psyke83> ok
<kwwii> quite a few people still use this theme, you could post and email asking for testing as well
<psyke83> yes, maybe...
<psyke83> I have an aversion to posting on the ML, Gmail always messes up the formatting on me ;)
<psyke83> btw, do you know if Cory will be working on the US art for Lucid, or did he hand it over to someone else?
<vish> psyke83: nope , are you subscribed to the ML?
<vish> psyke83: he mentioned he would be busy
<psyke83> vish: yes, I've posted on it before
<psyke83> yes, but he only mentioned Breathe
<vish> hmm , i think i busted my human theme :/
 * vish reinstalls
<kwwii> lol
<psyke83> that's weird, heh
<psyke83> maybe I inserted a buffer overflow exploit in the gtkrc... muhahah
<psyke83> vish, I pulled up two credit card numbers, a mastercard and visa. Which has the biggest overdraft?
<vish> psyke83: huh?
<psyke83> just kidding ;)
<psyke83> did you get it working?
<vish> adding manually and checking what breaks
<zniavre> FLOZz,  cover thumbnailer is working great on Lucid
<zniavre> thank you
<kwwii> psyke83: lol, nice
<vish> psyke83: weird , when i add the line with your name it breaks o.0
<psyke83> vish: are you doing something weird like merging the gtkrc with another version?
<psyke83> my name was already in the gtkrc, though
<vish> psyke83: just kidding ;)  earlier when i just overwrote with your gtkrc , something seems to have gone wrong , now it works :D
<psyke83> ;)
<vish> psyke83: hmm , the trough side details are the first thing that sticks out.. why is is convex instead of concave?
<vish> s/are/is
<vish> { 0.81, 1.02 }  < seems better
<psyke83> vish: why does it stick out? The button gradient is lighter on top
<psyke83> having the trough details inverted would make it look opposite to the other widgets
<psyke83> well, maybe my LCD isn't conveying the necessary details for me to see the problem
<psyke83> (it's an old-ish laptop)
<vish> psyke83: its weird by being convex
<vish> and the progress is convex too..
<vish> psyke83: is there an option to change the expander?
<darkmatter> and your head is concave... ;p
<psyke83> vish: I don't think so
<vish> darkmatter: that way its better to fill up stuff ;)
<psyke83> I documented all the options I found in the source
<psyke83> vish: did you mean that the gradient on the progressbar should also be inverted? I can change the trough, but changing the progressbar would be strange and inconsistent
<vish> psyke83: where does cimi document these changes? i'm probably blind even when i look at the changelog :(
<psyke83> vish: in the source ;)
<psyke83> murrine_draw.h, I think
<vish> ha..
<psyke83> he actually doesn't document them properly, I think I got the gist of some of them elsewhere, maybe from the arch packaging changelog
<vish> psyke83: progress bar doesnt need to change , the trough detail alone
<psyke83> ok, I'll commit that change
<psyke83> kwwii: should I document changes in debian/changelog as well?
<psyke83> (with the UNRELEASED dist tag)
<psyke83> I wasn't sure if that was necessary for merge proposals
<kwwii> psyke83: you should run dch and bump the version number for all your propsals
<kwwii> proposals
<kwwii> ie. include a list of all the changes at one time
<psyke83> ok
<psyke83> kwwii: I'm getting errors when trying to invoke "dch" or "dch -i"
<psyke83> http://pastebin.com/m72a5b102
<kwwii> wtf
<kwwii> ?
<kwwii> hrm, give me a second
<psyke83> I never edited this file, so it's nothing to do with my changes
<kwwii> yeah
<kwwii> it seems like it is vish's change which breaks it
<kwwii> parsechangelog/debian: warning:     debian/changelog(l6): badly formatted trailer line
<vish> huh , what did i do
<kwwii> let me see the changelog itself
<psyke83> it may be the space after: "Tue ,"
<kwwii> yeah
<psyke83> or rather, between
<psyke83> yeah, it's fine when I remove the space
 * kwwii thinks about getting lunch soon
<kwwii> ;)
<kwwii> man, I am really helpful today :D
<darkmatter> lies ;D
<psyke83> kwwii: updated with changes documented in debian changelog ;)
<kwwii> psyke83: killer, thanks!
<kwwii> my inspiration today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH7JBQ5cVRA
<psyke83> nice vid
<darkmatter> kwwii: actually, I shouldn't say I'm against rgba. I'm against the general consensus of how it should be used (as well as current usages in various os's) rgba as part of native compositing could be useful (by native I mean losing compiz ;)) using it in a 'peek' manner to find a specific window or such I could agree with. it's just the whole 'omg! it's like glass!" junk that is wasteful and sinfully wrong
<darkmatter> we should create useful implementations, not magpie bait ;P
<psyke83> ok folks, I'm heading out for a while... will be back soon
<kwwii> darkmatter: I agree completely with that statement ;)
<darkmatter> kwwii: good. because if you disagreed I'd be forced to slap you :P
<kwwii> darkmatter: Ä¥ehe, bring it on!
<darkmatter> kwwii: I believe in gentleman's warfare. the issue of a challenge is accompanied by a slap on the face with a fine swede glove that has been secretly loaded with lead pellets ;D
<darkmatter> it gives me the advantage of approximately 6 weeks preparation time while my opponent recovers in hospital
<elky> suede glove, you mean?. I'm not sure turnips or swedish folk are terribly gentlemenly things with which to slap someone, but they'd almost certainly remove the need for the lead pellets.
<darkmatter> elky: eat typo and die! ;P
<elky> :P
<darkmatter> though swedish folk would work too. it's not like they're useful for anything else ;o
<darkmatter> I once had a turnip suitable for assault. I should find the pics of it. it was around 18cm in diameter
<vish> heh , the sound of "suede" finally brought elky out of the woodwork ;)
<elky> Nah, elky avoiding going to bed because that means work comes sooner brought elky out of the woodwork.
<elky> Mind you I did commit a faux pas of my own in that i was referring to a rutabaga, but I don't know where uses which term for it and so turnip was simply easier :P
<elky> Though wikipedia does inform me that it is known as "yellow swede" sometimes.
<dashua> Anyone know a workaround for theming a dark bookmarks toolbar in FF?  I have almost everything else working without a .css file.
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/41573/screenshot_005_t3rgBc.png
<zniavre> workaround > epiphany ...    :o)
<dashua> zniavre, Ha.  Yeah.
<dashua> Added ttf-liberation to desktop-recommends.  Sans being replaced?
<EvileikO> dem those registering nickname
<EvileikO> s
<EvileikO> hi all
<dashua> zniavre, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/41580/screenshot_o40999.png
<dashua> Everything but the bookmarks toolbar is working :)
<zniavre> menubar button s quite nice
<dashua> Thx.  I'd like to figure this out.
<vish> EvileikO: hi..
<EvileikO> hello vish
<EvileikO> yesterday i was going to order a cd ubuntu 9.10
<vish> EvileikO: if you are interested in doing Ubuntu community artwork , check out  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<EvileikO> and i somehow read about the ubuntu artwork..
<EvileikO> so as a graphic designer.. here am i! voila!
<EvileikO> :)
<vish> EvileikO: we just help the canonical folks with any Ubuntu artwork , the main artwork is done by the canonical design team..
<EvileikO> i have to read more about it
<EvileikO> good
<EvileikO> i am messing with the virtual box
<EvileikO> brb got to fix myself illustrator
<EvileikO> can u use photoshop and illustrator on ubuntu without virtual machine?
<zniavre> if i got 1000â¬ for a soft im sure i can use a second computer with windows
<vish> lmao!
<ryanprior> We need a desktop app like this for Ubuntu: http://mugtug.com/sketchpad/
<ryanprior> Simple, practical, and beautiful. Everything The GIMP is not.
<kwwii> ryanprior: we need a desktop theme/tech like that more than the app itself :P
<kwwii> anyways, I am off to bed
<kwwii> night all
<troy_s> vish: How goes it?
<kwwii> w00t. just logged into my server with my N900
<kwwii> sleep now.
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-09
<vish> troy_s: heya...
<vish> doesnt seem to be progressing well with the manual design . This is something that's now floating around :( > http://imagebin.ca/view/j4_DZU9B.html
<vish> thorwil is nearly at the point of quiting
<troy_s> vish: Well that's too bad. Hopefully something good comes out of it.
 * vish bbiab
<ryanprior> vish: I like that mockup. Sorry to hear thorwil's stressed.
<troy_s> vish: How do you feel about the mock?
<vish> troy_s: https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg00615.html
<vish> hehe , thorwil thought it looked like "the twilight zone" ;p
<troy_s> vish: That wasn't my question :)
<vish> troy_s: hmm , i would prefer not using that ;)
<troy_s> vish: I'd hope that if everyone agrees that they are on a team that all of the relevant bits they can bring to the table are brought.
<troy_s> vish: Not good enough.
<troy_s> vish: Specifically, what do you like (if anything - no shame in saying "I believe it is underwhelming") or what do you not like?
<vish> troy_s: well the current design, is just a compromise... and the door with the lynx is wrong :/ since the light is brighter on the other side and the lynx seems to be on the darker side , it seems to give more of the wrong sense
<vish> which is _not_ what we want to convey
<vish> troy_s: is the need for a lynx is really desperate , we could use it with "the click" design i had pointed out
<vish> s/is/if
<troy_s> vish: Ok... so let's see... thus far I see you saying "Door is wrong" which, subject to artistic merit, is sort of a moot issue, agree?
<troy_s> vish: One could probably dicker with the semantics, but by and large, there are _far_ worse issues at play. ;)
<vish> troy_s: its more that the two elements dont fit well with each other and rather have no interaction with each other... but sure enlighten me :)
<troy_s> vish: Agree on the point of the is the lynx necessary. Let's cut to the chase on that point though - is _that_ Lynx necessary or, at the very core of the matter, desirable?
<troy_s> vish: In no particular order...
<troy_s> vish: 1) Lynx is suboptimal in execution. It errs on the side of grade school simplicity / technique.
<troy_s> vish: 2) Composition is rigid. Draw a line through the centre of gravity of the display type title. That line is the centre of gravity (roughly) of the title. It is compounded with a CoG of the door. Net sum is some sort of strange 1/3rds symmetry.
<troy_s> vish: 3) Type pairings. The logo type for "ubuntu" is godawful at the best of times. If you are going to handcuff yourselves into using it, don't let it take centre stage as the aesthetic anchor. The type pairings of the type above and below the title are so different that you have roughly mixed red wine with fish.
 * vish totally missed the type parings :/
<troy_s> vish: 4) Colour. There is one point of colour. Technically you could argue the application thereof, but at the very least, one should consider that given the context of the colour and location, that there is _no_ visual flow. The visual flow for a LtR audience probably starts with the glaring 10.04, hiccups with the value shift (yellow on white probably violates a value on value guideline), then staggers into the CoF.
<troy_s> 5) Style. There isn't any.
<troy_s> 6) Contextual style. What does a Lynx have to do with a door in relationship to your audience. If the audience is some sort of person unfamiliar with Ubuntu, then he or she likely doesn't appreciate the Lynx for Lynx's sake. See (1) above.
 * vish has been ranting about [6] since the beginning  :(
<vish> no new audience will ever get it
<troy_s> 6.1) Door motif _may_ work for the audience guessed at, but it most certainly could be more adeptly crafted.
<troy_s> vish: 7) Palette? What is the palette doing for the audience implied? Red Orange and Yellow are certainly the trademarks of Ubuntu, but do they lead the cover in the proper direction of communication _given_ the implied audience?
<troy_s> vish: 8) Grid. There isn't one.
<troy_s> vish: 8.1) Grids certainly aren't mandatory, bug given this as an example, it would be hard to argue that the team couldn't make better strides starting off with one.
<troy_s> vish: 8.2) If 'grid' is alien, Google 'publishing grid' or 'typographic grid'.
<troy_s> vish: And now, dinner... chat in a few perhaps.
<vish> ;)
<troy_s> vish: If anyone says 'new user' or 'average user' slap them.
<troy_s> vish: They don't exist. They are people with specific backgrounds and needs.
<troy_s> vish: Those terms oversimplify them and force horrible cliches.
<vish> hmm , i dont think using the Ubuntu colors is wrong but in the way use here , yellow to white is a bit of a mess
<vish> used*
<troy_s> vish: Colour should be used to drive that communication / emotion.
<troy_s> vish: The question is - relative to the audience - is it?
<troy_s> vish: Not an easy question to answer, and in the end, it is all guesswork. That's the core of the entire discussion. When you illustrate or paint, you make a constant series of evaluations on where to put a stroke. That's the role of the artist or designer, to deliver guesses and judgement calls.
<vish> for the relative audience - no .. but probably we could retain a bit of the official colors for purposes of retaining branding .. that way it would be like introducing the colors to the audience  , and once they use the OS , they'd get it..
 * vish gtg
 * vish will catch up later
<troy_s> vish: Agree on that point.
<kwwii> hey kids
<thorwil> kwwii: nena's producers listened too much to 2raumwohnung and maybe a bit goldfrapp. without getting it
<kwwii> thorwil: no doubt
<kwwii> Jono is really lucky I didn't post the other pics of him in that costume ;)
<thorwil> heh
<kwwii> he sent me an email this morning with the subject to "You bastard" and text of "you know why"
<kwwii> :P
<thorwil> but ... who would be his robin?
<kwwii> his wife ;)
<thorwil> pah, she could be batwoman or catwoman
<thorwil> although ... http://www.completelybonkers.co.uk/images/888897%20XL.jpg
<darkmatter> but that would undermine the importance of gay love
<thorwil> http://meandtheblueskies.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/batman.jpg
<darkmatter> my point exactly
<kwwii> lol
<darkmatter> vish: I almost feinted. after 10 years of bitching/moaning/ranting/raving until I turned blue in the face, someone actually started making a user account/login prefs manager 'somewhat' similar to what I've suggested :o
<vish> darkmatter: there ,there , dont worry , you can still keep bitching/moaning/ranting/raving ;)
<darkmatter> vish: lol and https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UserAccountDialog
<darkmatter> pics are at the bottom
<vish> oh , yeah , mcleasn had been blogged about that
<vish> s/been/ /
<zniavre> hello / bonjour
<zniavre> what do you think about the Lucidity gtk mockup ?
<troy_s> thorwil: Greets.
<thorwil> troy_s: funny, i was just about to paste you something :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Synergy. How are things?
<thorwil> troy_s: http://imagebin.ca/img/j4_DZU9B.png
<troy_s> thorwil: Yeah vish showed me that yesterday.
<thorwil> heh
<thorwil> troy_s: the creator of that even claimed to have taken the stuff on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork into account
<troy_s> thorwil: It just seems like more of the same circles. Problem with culture, not with abilities (although granted, that too is a problem)
<troy_s> thorwil: As wild speculation, it seems every step wanders. Adding elements isn't a horribly good solution when _every single element_ needs better execution.
<thorwil> troy_s: i'm more or less waiting for the project leader to take sides, but as luck has it, he currently has connectivity problems
<troy_s> thorwil: That isn't terribly useful either. This shouldn't be about sides.
<troy_s> thorwil: If you have a clear goal (something that fleshing out detail will actually _hinder_ for most participants), the solution should be accepted.
<troy_s> thorwil: It's the classic fundamental flaw - evaluating work based on the consumption, not on the creation.
<thorwil> troy_s: but it is about sides, because there's a clash between following a process, where you first define the what and how vs an approach of just doing something and not bothering about a consensus on abstract terms
<troy_s> thorwil: But quite frankly, anyone that looks at that Lynx and approves is questionable: Is it well executed craftsmanship? Does it communicate something fitting for the goal given the audience?
<troy_s> thorwil: My personal issue is that the Lynx, no matter how fitting, is just suffering from horrendous execution. It, as much as I hate to say it, is about grade three level artistry.
<troy_s> thorwil: (Somewhere in the zone of an 8-10 year old output)
<thorwil> troy_s: yeah exactly. almost everyone who did say something about the lynx is questionable
<troy_s> thorwil: IF you look at that Lynx and say 'I was utterly blown away' you are 1) Either completely cheerleading at that point - a useful quality in some circumstances one could guess. 2) Delusional.
<thorwil> troy_s: Benjamin managed to both call for "professional" quality and calling that lynx awesome
<troy_s> thorwil: Enough with the soft gloves... we have too many soft gloves.
<troy_s> thorwil: Well there you go. Wrong guy to be evaluating anything. Worst case.
<troy_s> thorwil: It is _not_ awesome, and that is just the tip of the iceberg. The tougher questions are all cloudy from that point on.
<troy_s> thorwil: Let's assume an extremely artistic Lynx, is that optimal? Might be... might be not. Those are the real questions. But if you can't get past a simple analysis of work, you are doomed to fail.
<troy_s> thorwil: Problem is too, that all of the 'creators' are playing a role. You don't have an arbitrator. That's problematic.
<thorwil> troy_s: can't wrangle the project leadership out of his hands. wouldn't want to. that's why i said i'm waiting for his reaction to recent discussions
<troy_s> thorwil: As clearly there is no respect amongst the participants to gravitate to a single person as arbitrator of worth.
<troy_s> thorwil: Problem is I don't think anyone sees the value of the leadership.
<troy_s> thorwil: If your leader makes poor choices, it is a moot point. Yes you pick a direction. Yes you make 'progress', but you still end up with GIMP.
<troy_s> thorwil: And I have no idea what 'professional' means.
<thorwil> troy_s: i think people who don't handle such terms with any care frequently mean, when the speak of "professional" quality: made with a level of craftsmanship that implies the creator must have spend so much time doing this kind of thing and/or has such a "talent", that he likely earns money with it, or could earn money with it
<thorwil> needless to say, i hate the misuse of that term. belongs in a list next to "intuitive"
<troy_s> thorwil: It's yet another empty and vacuous term. Professionals were _paid_ to create the packaging http://blog.canonical.com/?p=18. Professionals developed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=ubuntu_cd_810.pdf.
<troy_s> thorwil: Indeed it does.
<troy_s> thorwil: It is a long list... complete with nasty darker terms such as "average user" or like stupidity.
<troy_s> thorwil: Craftsmanship is a more useful word. The biggest problem with most is that Inkscape creates perfect curves and precision lines.
<troy_s> thorwil: "Clean and easy on the eyes" tripe.
<thorwil> i saw an average user just recently. sadly with the 0.3 part of his 1.3 children. nasty to look at
<troy_s> thorwil: What shocks me is that you end up with people that would readily acknowledge that their illustration / drawing skills are ... mediocre at best, and yet so many willingly pick up Inkscape and start 'working'.
<troy_s> thorwil: It's not going to get better in an application. Period.
<troy_s> thorwil: All of the same guidelines and principles apply.
<thorwil> troy_s: when some of my fellow industrial design students picked up 3D apps and tried using them early in the process, we saw lots of "minimalistic" designs, decidedly unlike the things we tended to sketch ...
<troy_s> thorwil: Hate to say it, but minimalism is a byproduct of Modernism. Modernism is dead.
<troy_s> thorwil: Has been for a while...
<thorwil> troy_s: sheesh, get down. minimalist as in: very obviously based on primitives
<troy_s> thorwil: Really? Even _Microsoft_ sees it in some capacities - http://www.technobuzz.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/offical-windows-7-wallpaper-technobuzz-net-3.jpg
<thorwil> just the things that happened to be easy to do
<troy_s> thorwil: It's been done like dinner for some time. A few companies still try to peddle it, but it's pretty stale. Postmodernism has been around since _I_ went to University... and that's a few years ago now. It's hitting mainstream in many ways.
<thorwil> you're still on a tangent
<troy_s> thorwil: Yes, _we_ are.
<troy_s> thorwil: ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: I think the picture becomes pretty clear when the ability to 'design' something in a collaborative setting is trumped by misplaced (and questionable) subjectivity.
<troy_s> thorwil: Pentagram does it. We don't. Yet.
<thorwil> troy_s: i would love to see you hold a talk about (post)modernism for a floss crowd
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL (You see this one? http://www.ghacks.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/windows_7_wallpaper-500x312.jpg)
<thorwil> afterwards a talk about the importance of audience ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: Those two are default wallpapers. The dire desperation has actually yielded some innovation at starchy old MS.
<troy_s> thorwil: Including the Zune HD design, which is nothing short of beautiful (interface wise - and as you well know, I'm pained to suggest anything MS for anything as 'beautiful' lol)
<troy_s> thorwil: Problem is, pomo still requires craftsmanship.
<troy_s> thorwil: It isn't like you can just throw crap at the wall.
<thorwil> pomo?
<troy_s> thorwil: PostModernism. http://konigi.com/notebook/typography-ui-zune-hd
<troy_s> thorwil: That typography work is pretty bloody stunning.
<thorwil> http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/northamerica/pomo.html
<troy_s> thorwil: It's a very beautiful bit of work.
<troy_s> thorwil: If they get to the point where music is playing you will see it.
<troy_s> thorwil: It's pretty stunning.
<thorwil> troy_s: already know it, thanks to that always preaching canadian guy ;>
<troy_s> thorwil: Lol.
<troy_s> thorwil: Anyways, I'm off.
<thorwil> cya
<troy_s> thorwil: Got to shout, because people is deaf around here.
<troy_s> thorwil: Keep the chin up and see if you can suss out a solution with the guys cranking the work out.
<troy_s> thorwil: And avoid that asstastic Ubuntu title font in all ways. If you are going to use it, hide it. Bury it.
<troy_s> thorwil: It's just nasty.
<thorwil> cute. font matrix in karmic has dysfunctional checkboxes, so you can't actually disable fonts. just a part of core functionality, so why bother?
 * thorwil builds newer version from source
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-10
 * kwwii rubs the sleep out of his eyes
<kwwii> vish: hey, I got approval to upload changes to the human theme
<kwwii> vish: I thought about merging your and psyke83's changes and using that
<kwwii> sound like a good idea?
<vish> kwwii: sounds good
<dashua> vish, Tweaks or bug fixes?
<vish> dashua: what i uploaded were just bug fixes.. psyke did mod of theme
<dashua> Oh nice
<kwwii> so I'll merge them as best and upload today
<kwwii> seb wants to stop hearing people complain :P
<dashua> Any reason to keep Human-Clearlooks?
<dashua> How about a murrine counterpart Human-Legacy or such.
<dashua> kwwii, I proposed a merge request for the community-themes package.  Update three theme and added on for testing.   It build but if you could check the changelog when you get a chance?
<dashua> Not sure if I did it correctly.
<kwwii> dashua: yes, will do
<kwwii> dashua: I wanted to add some new stuff to the community themes package as well
<dashua> Ok cool
<dashua> Any suggestions?
<kwwii> homosapiens caught my eye
<dashua> Nice, yeah that is very nice.
<kwwii> :)
<kwwii> I'll post something about that later today
<dashua> kwwii, Ok great. :)
<kwwii> dashua: if you are interested, I'll let you do the work and lead things and I'll back you up whenever needed
<dashua> Ok, sounds good.  Just might need a little direction with packaging :)
<kwwii> dashua: I'd like to see if we can get some others involved, etc
<kwwii> maybe we can get another theme as well
<kwwii> I promise I will help you and/or take care of the packaging
<kwwii> otherwise I'd have to do it anyway :P
<kwwii> it's quite simple, once you know what you are doing
<dashua> How many themes do you think total?  There are 5 now.
<dashua> I think I'm screwing up the dch part.
<kwwii> well, it might be best to stick to 5...maybe there is something we could replace
<dashua> It's placing my changelog below the present one.
<kwwii> ideally, we could have a new package every release or two
<kwwii> ouch
<kwwii> funky
<kwwii> which editor do you use?
<dashua> nano
<kwwii> and are you doing "dch -i"
<dashua> Hrm
<dashua> No just dch.
<kwwii> -i tells it to increment the version number in a new entry
<dashua> Maybe that is the issue.
<kwwii> might be
<dashua> Ah.  I'll try it again.  It built, but probably not correctly.
<kwwii> version tracking is quite important :)
<dashua> Yeah, still trying to get the packaging part down.
<kwwii> the hardest thing is not making stupid mistakes :P
<kwwii> I do that all the time
<dashua> Does gnome-themes-ubuntu need any work too?  Update wise.
<kwwii> but so does everyone
<dashua> Ha yeah.
<dashua> I'm assuming yes with the murrine update.
<kwwii> gnome-themes-ubuntu is probably up to date but if not we should make it so
<kwwii> we are going to have to update the murrine themes in it naturally
<kwwii> if there are any
<dashua> Ok, I think Dust needs to be updated.
<kwwii> ahhh, yes...true
<kwwii> I hadn't given it any thought (yet)
<dashua> I'll take a look tomorrow.
<dashua> Np
<kwwii> I have a full plate atm, and things keep stacking up
<kwwii> thnx
<dashua> I understand.  I'm glad to help out where I can. :)
<kwwii> I think that lucid is going to be pretty cool
<kwwii> it's hard to see atm but I am sure we'll get there
<dashua> Yeah, I'm digging the MeMenu thing.
<dashua> Lots of indicator work too.
<kwwii> ;)
<dashua> So far so, so good for me.
 * dashua keeps his fingers crossed
<kwwii> lol, I hope that helps
<vish> dashua: let me know when you get the theme started.. i'll try to do some metacity buttons for it
<dashua> I added Human-Lucid to the community-themes with zacbarton's new buttons.
<vish> ah , cool
<kwwii> hrm, not sure about using that name
<dashua> It's basically Human with the Homosapien buttons and a tweaked gtkrc.
<kwwii> sounds very official
<kwwii> HomoHuman ?
<kwwii> :D
<kwwii> sorry
<vish> o.0
<dashua> Ouch
<kwwii> might be better to find a more appropriate name
<vish> kwwii: i think we have offended a lot of them in the past few days ;p
<kwwii> lol
<dashua> I guess we can call it Homesapien as it's just a metacity theme now.
<kwwii> whoever "they" are, I hope they excuse us
<kwwii> dashua: right
<kwwii> sabdfl saw and liked it, if that helps
<dashua> Homosapien?
<dashua> Nice
<kwwii> yepp
<dashua> Cool
<kwwii> then again, the author emailed him ;)
<kwwii> which automatically hits my inbox
<dashua> Ha, I bet :)
<kwwii> most of the art emails sent to mark get filtered by his secratary to myself or someone else on the design team
<kwwii> I used to get them all, and it sucked
<dashua> vish, zacbarton is idling here.  We were working on coming up with something.
<dashua> Maybe together we tweak, combine the work, and come up with one unified theme.
<vish> cool
 * vish has to finish the damn N900 icon :/ [if only i had the phone i'd finish it faster ;p]
<dashua> Hehe
<dashua> Off to bed.  C ya'll tomorrow.
<kwwii> night
<dashua> I'l  be digging out two feet of snow tomorrow =/
<kwwii> I might be doing that in a few hours
<jessew> kwwii: I haven't managed to get a time to clarify with Ivana about the wallpaper licensing issues -- She asked if we could meet up on IRC, but it fell through, and I haven't heard back since then.  Any pointers?
<kwwii> jessew: hrm, I guess ping her again?
<kwwii> she isn't up yet
<kwwii> I can mention something if I talk to her (she is a very busy person)
<kwwii> jessew: what exactly do you want from her?
<jessew> kwwii: I wanted to check what exact license she asked for when she directly spoke to people about the wallpapers, so we can put that in the package, and/or recontact anyone we got some odd license from.  She was willing to do it, but I think it just got lost in the flux of other things.
<kwwii> yeah, most certainly...we were on a week long sprint last week
<kwwii> and we are now all jet lagged :P
<jessew> that completely makes sense.  this is certainly NOT urgent, although it is important to get to sometime.
<kwwii> I'll ask later when she gets to the office
<jessew> thanks
<kwwii> from her first tweet this morning I don't think I want to piss her off today ;)
<jessew> erps?  (I don't follow twitter...)
<kwwii> "I am struggling with my mood this morning."
<kwwii> best to let sleeping dogs lie
<kwwii> erm, I guess I just called her a bitch in some indirect way...BAD, BAD, BAD
<jessew> yes, that does suggest this might be a less than good day.  If you do talk to her, please do stress that I am NOT in any hurry.
<kwwii> will do
<kwwii> sorry it seems so hard, we'll take care of it
<kwwii> and thanks ;)
<kwwii> moin thorsten
<thorwil> moin kenneth
<jessew> kwwii: you are welcome; thanks for all your efforts on it.
<thorwil> kwwii: your new COO worries me: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10448883-16.html
<kwwii> thorwil: hehe, yeah
 * vish pokes darkmatter with "read what thorwil thinks of document vs apps" stick  ;p
<vish> rather which needs to be a first level access
<thorwil> on the gnome usability list
<thorwil> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2010-February/msg00011.html
 * vish disagrees with thorwil though :)
<thorwil> vish: on which point?
<vish> thorwil: the "share/backup/restore" can be done from within each app , without exposing the user to the concept of filesystem   , its not necessary to expose the filesystem for those
<darkmatter> vish:  application are archaic, and hierarchical navigation is over exposed
<vish> yeah
<thorwil> vish: if you have to grant access to all files, you end up exposing the file-system. that's the case for at least backup/restore
<vish> thorwil: not necessarily , the filesystem hierarchy can work like a kernel , user doesnt need to be exposed to it but it just is there..
<darkmatter> vish: and the idea isn't new. even though the technology of today is higher. I can show you gui's (some highly antiquated) that if you look at how they approach managing data/activities are very much superior to what we have today, the reason they sputtered out is the same as why we don't have web convergence today
<thorwil> vish: doesn't work once you have to know where files actually are. as is the case for backup/restore ;)
<darkmatter> the tchnology at the time was.. well.. not there. and many never could have guessed how effen huge the OS would become as a uber bloaty entity
<darkmatter> you don't need to know where the files are for backup/restore. you need to know 'wha' they are (gotta find them :P). the where can be abstracted
<vish> thorwil: not necessarily , if i want an inkscape backup , i could just bring it from inkscape itself , and the backend does all the rest of the work.. [but I'm just giving an half-arsed response , multitasking here  :) ]
<vish> heh , darkmatter same replies :)
<darkmatter> half arsed is right :P
<thorwil> vish: sure. if i want a backup of all my documents, i sure would like to make my way through a bitmap drawing app, a vector one, 3d, text editor ...
<darkmatter> in the end it's about the organizational metaphor presented to the user
<thorwil> anyway, who seriously thinks the iPad would be a good model for everything is a complete idiot :)
<vish> ipad == a bigger iphone [and apple is milking everyone twice ;p ]
<darkmatter> thorwil: oh. it was comparing to the iPodXXL? my bad. I thought it was referring to abstracting stuff
<darkmatter> vish: no, an iPhone would still have a webcam :P
<vish> lol
<vish> darkmatter: apple will introduce it in ipad v2 and make users buy again ;)
<thorwil> darkmatter: the staring point was http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2010-February/msg00010.html
<thorwil> starting, even
<darkmatter> but regardless, if done right you do not need to expose the filesystem and applications are obsolete.
<darkmatter> but god no. the whole 'iClone' thing needs to die before it can be birthed
<thorwil> yeah, that's why i said the new COO worries me. what a great addition to a mac-using design team
<darkmatter> lol: "we're  fortunate to have people who specialize in Usability and User  Experience" <--- quit lying post-guy-whoever-you-are. cause every specialist who has *EVER* tried to help change linux has been told a "but.... it's too hard, and you're not paying us, so fuck off" sorta thing. be it ux, code, or other
<darkmatter> the gnome/kde/whatever guys are only interested in enlisting the aid of crack-head anal-retentive fanboi's with delusions of grandeur. well, with the exception of the guys who poorly rip of osx :P
<darkmatter> and this whole 'open specific apps to access <blah> because that's like the real world" is a good definition of 'Crackhead" xD
<darkmatter> since that's the complete opposite of reality. in reality you know what you want out of your stuff, and you semi-instinctively fetch it. because it's your stuff the steps in between are abstracted
<vish> darkmatter: the post guy is " wers "  ;)
<wers> vish, hi
<wers> what's up?
<darkmatter> vish: cool
<vish> wers: nah , nothing we were just discussing your mail to the usability ML
<vish> wers: btw , Hi
<vish> :)
<wers> oh. ok cool. hehe
<darkmatter> damn. no coffee left. guess that means I make some darjeeling
<wers> just read the log. lol
 * darkmatter runs to kitchen before he dries of and starts flaking away
 * wers goes back to work
 * darkmatter throws legos at vish :o
 * thorwil hands darkmatter some duplos
<darkmatter> \o/
 * vish starts building a fort 
<darkmatter> vish: once I was bored and built a BeBox out of my sons legos. :D
<thorwil> snowing again. nasty white matter only causing additional work
<zniavre_> widget "new-tooltip-style"  style "murrine-tooltips"  that is good into gtkrc?
<thorwil> the next one will be new-new-tooltip-style?
<zniavre_> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/lucid/+source/gtk+2.0/2.19.5-1ubuntu1
<zniavre_> is it possible to put the border_colors around menu itself ?
<zniavre_> and / or notebook
<zniavre_> http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5087/capture1rk.png   > menus are readable this way or i can forgot this idea ?
<kwwii> vish: so your branch fixes the bugs in both human and darkroom right?
<vish> kwwii: yup
<kwwii> ok, I'll take that for now. Psyke83's stuff had other changes
<kwwii> at least this will fix the bug for now ;)
<kwwii> w00t All changes applied successfully.
<kwwii> ouch, but you borked the changelog :P
<kwwii> vish: ok, I approved the merge, merged the branch, set teh bug to fix commited, uploaded it to my ppa
<kwwii> vish: once it builds on the ppa and we test it once, I will ping seb and get him to upload it
 * vish cries
<kwwii> tears of joy, I hope
<vish> kwwii: was the space the problem?
<vish> in the changelog?
<kwwii> vish: yes, you had an extra space in two entries
 * vish head-desks
<kwwii> using dch -i is better
<kwwii> I'll do the human-netbook theme now
<vish> kwwii: that would have the same space too :( [/me still head-desking ]
<kwwii> no worries ;)
<vish> :)
<thorwil> poor desk. hope it has no dent already :)
<kwwii> it all depends on how hard your head is :P
 * thorwil leaves the his dent-less but also coffee-less desk to go where the 2nd doesn't apply
<darkmatter> I prefer listening to soft skulls head-desk. it's quite entertaining
<kwwii> vish: hey, can you add a panel volume icon in humanity and humanity dark which don't have *any* level indicators?
<vish> kwwii: already there .. there was a bug ara reported,
<kwwii> vish: can you point me to that bug?
<kwwii> it's for the new volume menu?
<vish> kwwii: Humanity/status/24/stock_volume-0.svg
<kwwii> vish: sweet, does that humanity package need to get into lucid?
<vish> kwwii: its been there since karmic :D , but not used by the menu
<kwwii> vish: erm, I want one without any level stuff at all
 * vish finds bug#
<kwwii> so just the speaker
<vish> for volume=0 right , or for a speaker
<kwwii> let me find the wiki page to explain
<kwwii> vish: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoundMenu
<vish> hmm , thats not right :(
<vish> kwwii: compare > stock_volume-0.svg , stock_volume-max.svg if we have a speaker with bars at one end , wouldnt it require one without bars? , also gtk messes up the icon if it occupies less space
<vish> wouldnt it require one with fewer bars*
<kwwii> vish: we need one with no bars and with full bars...the one with no bars needs to be centered in the space
<vish> kwwii: Bug #513714 , if the icon doesnt occupy space we already have a bit of blurriness.. , it isnt a problem doing the icon.. what name do you want it as ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 513714 in gtk+2.0 "Audio volume blurry" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/513714
<kwwii> vish: something like stock_speaker or such
<kwwii> not sure exactly what it should be named
<kwwii> did you see where it goes on that wiki page?
<vish> kwwii: k... did mpt see the present icon? he was the one who recommended it so
<kwwii> vish: look at that wiki page to understand where it goes first
<kwwii> vish: and I think part of the reason that icon is blurry is because it is being scaled
<vish> yeah , it scales , because gtk scales it , thats what upstream devs mention
<kwwii> vish: does the icon not exist at all sizes?
<kwwii> and are the svg's really at the correct size for each size needed?
<vish> yup
<vish> it is there in the 16,22 , 24px sizes..
<vish> kwwii: i saw the wiki icon  [but the present icon was how mpt suggested he wanted the volume=0 , maybe he forgot >  Bug #444548 ]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 444548 in humanity-icon-theme "Not having a muted icon for the volume applet causes confusion" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/444548
<vish> comment #12
<vish> kwwii: the present icon will be consistent with the notify-osd icon too
<kwwii> vish: look at the pic on the wiki page...we need an icon for the little speaker in the drop-down
<kwwii> mpt drew that mockup
<darkmatter> kwwii: the problem is gtk doesn't scale consistently. it doesn't jump sizes. if you're at 23 pixel's for a panel, for example, it will scale down the 24 instead of just plugging in the 22. also it does weird crap from tray applet to tray applet. like scaling down the largest available icon instead of using one of an applicable size
<kwwii> darkmatter: well, that is not exactly true
<kwwii> darkmatter: it depends on how the theme is setup and which sizes the icons are really made at
<darkmatter> it's a part of the trend I refer to as 'GNOME sucks"
<kwwii> lol
<vish> kwwii: hmm , i have no probs adding the new icon :)   .. but i had this discussion with mpt during karmic release.. he mentioned that the notify-osd icon and the panel icon *need* to be similar  ... i think he forgot [kindly remind him].. I'll add the icon in the mean time
<kwwii> vish: ok, I will bring it up with him then
<kwwii> see what he says
<vish> kwwii: also , when the user changes the volume , and when volume=0  , the icon in the panel wont match the icon in the drop-down
<darkmatter> kwwii: not entirely. you can have a theme that is idealy constructed and still have issues. there's applets that try to use 48x48 on a 32 pixel panel for crying out loud. and I know for a fact the icon theme's I use have all sizes covered pixel perfect, because I'm OCD and meticulously fix things until time ends :P
<darkmatter> some is gtk's fault, some is the fault of app(let) devs. I care not who is to blame in any specific case. just fix it ;o
<kwwii> darkmatter: yes, I agree
<kwwii> vish: ok, I asked mpt ;)
<kwwii> he says that the 0% icon should have no waves coming out of it at all
<vish> ;)
<kwwii> whereas the mute should be the same but red
<kwwii> so the current humanity icons need to change
<kwwii> actually it's not that hard really
<vish> kwwii: red as in the speaker turns red? o.0
<kwwii> I can do it if you don't want to or don't have the time
<kwwii> vish: yes, again, it is all on the wiki page under "Artwork Requirements"
<vish> kwwii: heh , not a problem.. i was just making sure :)
<darkmatter> I like the basic volume control spec. it's kinda similar to the designs I've been working on for any 'I live in teh icon!' functions (exposing what should be exposed instead of hiding it on right-click menus
<darkmatter> you going to fully integrate it with pulse? (individual app sliders)
<kwwii> no
<kwwii> it is a main slider
<darkmatter> k
<kwwii> if your computer has good hardare it will know when you plug in a headphone
<kwwii> and then it auto switches to that device
<kwwii> if you have shit, you get a main slider and that is all
<kwwii> audiophiles (such as myself) install the pulse stuff to get full control
<vish> kwwii: 16px icon or 24px?
 * vish adding now
<darkmatter> was just curious since some apps have inconsistent sound output
<kwwii> vish: it will need to be at 16, 22 and 24 at least
<kwwii> as will all the panel icons
<vish> k..
<kwwii> probably even 32 for big resolutions/high dpi
<kwwii> but that can wait
<kwwii> the ubuntu panel currently uses 22x22 icons, btw
<vish> not all icons ;) are 22px  , the volume is 24 and the nm is 24 :(
<vish> that was the problem in karmic , but yay app indicators
<kwwii> vish: ahh, right...bad applets
<kwwii> I wish there was some kind of leadership in the gtk design world
<kwwii> ok, I have a meeting in 10min, taking a short break
<kwwii> bbl
<vish> kwwii: the app indicators are actually using 16px icons not 22px :(   /me wishes they used bigger icons
<kwwii> well, once we get simplified icons everywhere it will look better with small icons
<vish> yeah
<vish> kwwii: those two are in the theme now..
 * vish afk
<kwwii> killer ;)
<vish> kwwii: dont forget to mention to mpt i was swearing at him ;p , these icons without bars where how it was earlier for low.. he insisted it to have lighter bars ;p
 * vish now really afk
<troy_s> thorwil: Ping.
<thorwil> troy_s: gnip
<troy_s> thorwil: That doesn't look right backwards.
<troy_s> thorwil: How are things? Making hay?
<thorwil> troy_s: no. currently working on my personal wiki page, so i can apply for ubuntu membership
<thorwil> troy_s: that so i can get on planet ubuntu
<troy_s> thorwil: What do you want that for?
<thorwil> troy_s: to talk about design thinking. added visibility
<troy_s> thorwil: Ah.
<thorwil> kwwii: would you be so kind to add a "testimonial" to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThorstenWilms to help me with my membership application?
<kwwii> thorwil: naturally!
<kwwii> I cannot believe you don't already have membership
<thorwil> kwwii: i don't like the idea of asking, having someone judging me. i consider myself a member by action. but now i want to have the option of reaching more people via the planet ;)
<kwwii> thorwil: I can understand that
<kwwii> thorwil: tell me where I should put it
<kwwii> just at the end?
<thorwil> kwwii: yes, end. with a == Testimonials == heading, i guess
 * thorwil notes vish scheduled on the AsiaOceania board
<thorwil> kwwii: thank you :D
<kwwii> thorwil: you are very welcome
<vish> thorwil: only now you are doing that o.0  ... now i'm ashamed :s  [well,another member asked me why i havent applied, so i thought why not]
<dashua> kwwii, community-themes should be ready for review :)
<dashua> Please let me know what I screwed up =/
<thorwil> vish: pah, you have been more active since a while now and i explained the reason in my case ;p
<vish> thorwil: hehe.. no blogs for me though ;)
<vish> thorwil: as you are already aware , i have two left hands :D
<psyke83> hi
<vish> kwwii: around?
<darkmatter> my current working music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0
<darkmatter> let us see how trippy my next design will be ;o
<kwwii> vish: hey
<kwwii> vish: there were some problems with the version changes in the theme packages
<kwwii> but seb uploaded them anyway
<kwwii> the bzr history and such
<darkmatter> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cV4GAlI4C_Q
<darkmatter> the  rant in the middle is funny, and awesome
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-11
<kwwii> vish: hey, can you point me at the humanity branch you work on?
<kwwii> vish: I will review it for changes and upload it
<psyke83> kwwii: hey, sent you an email re: gtk updates, probably needs more tuning for darkroom based on your feedback
<kwwii> hi psyke83, yeah I saw that
<kwwii> psyke83: I uploaded vish's changes yesterday just to fix the bugs
<psyke83> right
<kwwii> psyke83: I looked into your changes (and will look at the new ones now) and probably include them in the next day or so
<psyke83> vish's fixes are included in my branch too, so if the updates look otherwise ok, you shouldn't have problems
 * kwwii is *really* busy
<psyke83> yep, no worries :)
<vish> kwwii: hei , i didnt understand , what branch?
<vish> the volume icons?
<kwwii> vish: yeah
<kwwii> I think I found them thogh
<kwwii> in elementaryicons
<vish> yup
<vish> kwwii: you want to upload to lucid?
<kwwii> vish: yes, I do...but I need to review things first
<kwwii> the new sound menu is ready to go into lucid
<kwwii> so it will need the right icons ;)
<vish> kwwii: hmm , there are a couple of things that i have to fix in the branch..
<kwwii> we might need to rename/relink some icons
<vish> i'll upload the changes in a couple of hours
<kwwii> vish: ok, let me know when you are ready
<kwwii> vish: but no hurry, take your time
<vish> kwwii: the volume icons are good to go though.. there are a few extra wip icons there.. [which might be the only problem]
 * vish bbl and fix the branch
<kwwii> vish: hrm, I guess I'll just add those volume icons for now and give you time to work on your stuff, ok?
<vish> kwwii: hmm , just a sec , i'll remove the offending icon.. and the other changes are good
<kwwii> ok, cool
<vish> kwwii: k. done...  it should be good for review [for now ;)]
<kwwii> vish: killer, thanks!
 * vish bbl
<vish> np..
<kwwii> have fun
<kwwii> psyke83: hey, ever thought about tryin to desaturate darkRoom ?
<kwwii> in the meantime it looks outdated in my opinion
<psyke83> yep... I sent a version called "newhuman-light" a good while ago... let me get a screenshot
<psyke83> kwwii: http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3841/newhumanlightv01.png
<psyke83> I agree that it looks outdated too (but I prefer the modification over the current version, at least)
<kwwii> hrm, taht is still too saturated for me (and too light)
<psyke83> well, I'm not a fan of dark themes in general... UbuntuStudio is tolerable for me, but DarkRoom makes me uncomfortable. I can try to desaturate the brown and see if I can find a working combination
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> I was amazed that people like it
<kwwii> I was just playing around
<psyke83> kwwii: IMHO, something like #665247 for the bg_color would improve the theme
<psyke83> we need to find a way to create associations with coffee and cocoa beans, rather than fecal matter ;)
<psyke83> unfortunately all three concepts are related to humanity :P
<kwwii> one second...I had a call
<kwwii> hehe, I actually like it with much less saturation
<kwwii> and darker
<kwwii> 474141 or so
<psyke83> let me see
<kwwii> 514a4a
<kwwii> yeah...514a4a would be an excellent start
<kwwii> it is close to the brightness overall
<kwwii> but less saturated
<psyke83> ah you wanted it almost completely desaturated?
<psyke83> I don't see brown anymore
<kwwii> well, yeah ;)
<kwwii> it is a dark brownish grey
<psyke83> well... it looks better, but I'd like to change some little things (like the inactive text colour)
<kwwii> 524747 perhaps
<psyke83> yes, better
<psyke83> the other just looked grey on my screen (maybe because it's an older LCD panel with 6bit reproduction, I dunno)
<kwwii> it is amazing how different monitors look
<psyke83> yes
<kwwii> the design team use a lot of macs
<kwwii> which distorts their perception of how things will look on a pc
<psyke83> yeah the gamma defaults are different (though I dunno if that influences linux)
<kwwii> oh, and they do funky stuff as well
<psyke83> it's fine though, you can buy me a mac so that I can see the colours properly... I'll send you my address for shipment
<kwwii> using more bits
<psyke83> :P
<psyke83> I assumed you'd prefer a darker selected_bg_colour, as the contrast with the bright orange was quite strong
<psyke83> so... I changed it to the same as Human. I don't know if you wanna change that as well
<kwwii> yeah, guess I'd need to see it to understand what you mean
<kwwii> but the bright orange is a bit too much, if that is what you mean
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> my son calls and says someone hit him in the face with a book and broke his glasses
<psyke83> kwwii: I mean #D78E49 (which ends up looking brighter because of the highlight_ratio and gradients)
<psyke83> wow, sorry to hear that, man
<kwwii> ahh, right
<kwwii> bad day for him ;(
<psyke83> how old is your son?
<kwwii> 12
<psyke83> it's probably tough for him at that age... or was it an accident and not bullying, I wonder?
 * thorwil had classmates purposefully targeting his glasses
<kwwii> lol, he comes home and explains it...turns out they were fscking around and it's pretty much both of their fault
<kwwii> I hit him, he hit me, I hit him back, he hit me in the face with a book
<thorwil> heh
<kwwii> and they both feel really bad :p
<kwwii> just wait until his mother finds out :p
<psyke83> heh
<thorwil> back when i was that age, the amount covered by health insurance was pretty good. not anymore
<kwwii> I think we have insurance for his glasses
<psyke83> kwwii: what about Human, are the changes ok? There's not much changed, mostly gradients and button shading
<kwwii> psyke83: Å·es, I think so
<kwwii> yes
<kwwii> vish: I just made audio-output-none-panel and audio-volume-muted-blocking-panel
<kwwii> for Dark
<kwwii> lol, then I notice you had one of them in Humanity, the red one
<vish> kwwii: yeah , the red icon in one theme is sufficient [humanity-dark just fallsback to humanity for those]
<kwwii> vish: good point
<kwwii> vish: I made the other one with the outline
<vish> kwwii: wouldnt an outline with an "!" inside be better for the "no device "?   would using just an outline would sufficiently convey the meaning?
<zniavre> http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/571/captureel.png
<zniavre> who made Lucidity ?
<kwwii> vish: I don't think we need !'s all over, it scares people
<kwwii> zniavre: nifty
<kwwii> but not quite done I think
<vish> k..
<zniavre> he's not in this channel ...
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> sorry, I meant that looked nifty
<kwwii> :P
<vish> lol
<zniavre> :o)
<vish> kwwii: you included it to the theme?
<vish> i'll add it to elementary too..we dont want another merge conflict :p
<kwwii> vish: I've just made it now, I will send it to you
<kwwii> I still need to make a light version
<vish> coolio
<kwwii> but right now I am having major problems with my flight on sunday
<zniavre> snow?
<vish> zniavre: what was the command to force the theme for an app?
<zniavre> wait a sec
<zniavre> env GTK2_RC_FILES=/usr/share/themes/Human-Murrine/gtk-2.0/gtkrc vlc %U   > something around that
<zniavre> this one was for vlc
<vish> zniavre: awesome thanks...
<zniavre> im totally scared to edit wiki page to add a comment on this lucidity theme
<kwwii> zniavre: right
<kwwii> hehe, don'
<kwwii> ahhh
<kwwii> don't fear the wiki
<kwwii> vish: email address?
 * vish wonders if kwwii is very tired :)
<kwwii> it is the yahoo account, right?
<vish> kwwii: yup.. ;) you've sent me mails already ;)
<kwwii> sorry
<kwwii> I am having a bad day
<vish> yeah , i guessed ;)
<kwwii> my flight for the 14-16 turns out to be for March
<kwwii> and airberlin is not the most helpful company in the world
 * thorwil guesses the most helpful company in the world doesn't sit in germany
<kwwii> thorwil: service desert Germany...you know it's real when even German comics make fun of it
<dashua> zniavre, It seems you have to enable RGBA for the entire theme to get the new round transparent tooltips.
<dashua> It doesn't work if you theme the style and specify the engine.
<dashua> http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/42144/screenshot_0BW9iA.png
<dashua> Pretty nice
<vish> dashua: how do you define the outline?
<vish> kwwii: does it look anything similar to the real thing?  >  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/n900-128.png
 * vish just found an error ;)
<zniavre> dashua,  nothing new to this was already available before
<zniavre> http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/571/captureel.png
<zniavre> wrong paste sorry
<zniavre> http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/676/capture1aa.png
<kwwii> vish: it is a bit more rounded on the sides
<kwwii> and the speaker whole is much less visible
<kwwii> vish: and the panel does not go all the way through to the left
<vish> kwwii: the speaker you mean the black line right?
<kwwii> vish: yes
<vish> kwwii: even during the music mode the panel is not to the left?
<kwwii> also, just above that, even less visible is a camera (under the plsatic)
<vish> i saw that in a video
<kwwii> vish: um, right is it full then
<kwwii> your icon does look nice though
<kwwii> I am just trying to be picky to make it perfect ;)
<vish> kwwii: i want you to pick on it ;p
 * vish makes changes
<vish> ha..  dilmo implemented hbons idea :)
<dashua> Any recommendations for the community themes package as far as adding new themes, removing older ones?  Impression and Night Impression are very similar, so do we want both?
<dashua> UbuntuSun seems fairly popular in the community.
 * thorwil looks at "Ubuntu Jersey's" post linking to very scary "designs"
<dashua> thorwil, Jersey is very scary in general. ;)
<thorwil> http://fontmatrix.net/ in the latest release (not karmic package) is really nice!
<zniavre> good evening
<Raff7> hi
<Raff7> :)
<zniavre> how to make progessbar thinner ? please
<Raff7> maybe you can help me, i'm searching for a not too-much vectorial theme
<Raff7> something that seems real and not a toon
<troy_s> Raff7: What does that mean?
<troy_s> Raff7: Sorry, but you will need to explain things a little further.
<Raff7> sure uhm
<Raff7> i don't like gnome/kde
<Raff7> because i don't like their look, seems a toon
<Raff7> something for children... there is a lot of vectorial art there
<jerrod> hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-12
<troy_s> Raff7: So hunt around on Gnome look. Unfortunately everyone is rather obsessed with the craptastic looking Tango and such.
<kwwii> better yet, instead of complaining try helping to fix the problem
<DanRabbit1> kwwii: yea! tell him :D
<kwwii> :p
<troy_s> kwwii: Because not all that many see it as a problem methinks.
<kwwii> troy_s: true
<troy_s> kwwii: And more, the 'whittle away on a piece of wood' doesn't seem to be buying us much in the way of a holistic approach to design.
<troy_s> kwwii: Looks like you have a pretty solid addition though in Dominic... chatted with him yet?
<kwwii> troy_s: I think that you'll start to see some change in the future...the design team is just getting up to speed
<troy_s> kwwii: Not without more designers. You have Dominic from what I can see.
<kwwii> yeah, he is great
<kwwii> there are more than you thikn
<kwwii> think
<kwwii> you only see a small portion on the art list
<kwwii> troy_s: I end up being the tech support for the design team, so I get to talk to them all :P
<troy_s> kwwii: I don't really watch the art list.
<troy_s> kwwii: The thing is, design ethic starts at the top. ;)
<kwwii> troy_s: indeed, and one of the best things Ivanka has done is learn to lead without being led
<troy_s> kwwii: I'd think ethically it raises some concerns if the tools aren't pushed, etc.
<troy_s> kwwii: The last thing a public face needs is the private blog side revealing a bunch of Mac fanboys.
<troy_s> kwwii: But alas, just one completely irrelevant opinion.
<kwwii> troy_s: well, one thing that has changed recently is that everyone on the team has to run ubuntu
<troy_s> kwwii: I applaud that. But by run, I'd hope that it is the same zealotry that is pushed at Apple.
<kwwii> troy_s: and at least two designers that I know of are learning to use inkscape because they realized that they have to in order to make SVGs for linux
<troy_s> kwwii: Hell... that is exactly why Keynote was created.
<troy_s> kwwii: It is sad because the tools are close in some capacities, and leagues away in others (namely GIMP and Inkscape). I'd hope that Canonical could push to get those marginalized elements turned into a priority.
<troy_s> kwwii: Difficult when everyone is worried about 22 pixel icons in the era of representational data.
<kwwii> troy_s: indeed
<kwwii> troy_s: did you see photobomb?
<troy_s> kwwii: Uh... Maybe?
<troy_s> kwwii: I honestly cringe every time I see _anything_ coming out of the culture these days. I just cringe.
<troy_s> kwwii: Link?
<kwwii> the head of the platform team (rick spencer) is doing it as a proof of concept
<kwwii> lp is sooo slow
<kwwii> https://launchpad.net/photobomb http://theravingrick.blogspot.com
<kwwii> note that the icons are just place holders :p
<troy_s> kwwii: And netdeth.
<troy_s> kwwii: Go again... missed that obviously.
<kwwii> 07:46 < kwwii> https://launchpad.net/photobomb http://theravingrick.blogspot.com
<kwwii> 07:47 < kwwii> note that the icons are just place holders :p
<troy_s> kwwii: (It's ok, I can't stand icons nor our obsession with them.)
<troy_s> kwwii: What is the goal of Pb?
<kwwii> troy_s: to be a simple to use photo editor which is also social desktop enabled
<kwwii> or however you describe it
<kwwii> the idea being the f-spot is still more than what most need/want
<troy_s> kwwii: Lol. Speaking of which, is there _any_ sense of face recog going on out there? I've been a looking but seeing nothing.
<kwwii> gimp is serious overkill
<troy_s> kwwii: Picasa is pretty darn ridiculous.
<kwwii> I don't know of any, but I bet ted gould would
<troy_s> kwwii: Well that's about audience and goal isn't it? GIMP is one of those strange apps. It's too complicated for a casual snapshot editor, and too utterly crippled for serious manipulation.
<troy_s> kwwii: (Although some would argue differently... *cough* http://identi.ca/conversation/11761531#notice-15873957 *cough*)
<kwwii> GIMP has a history
<kwwii> so GIMP is what it is
<troy_s> kwwii: It has a cancer.
<kwwii> I mean, the whole basis of gnome, gtk is the GIMP Tool Kit. How logical is that?
<troy_s> kwwii: Sadly, there are two _glaring_ issues with it, and they never seem to bubble to the priority list because everyone is too busy crunching on those 22pixel icons.
<troy_s> kwwii: Yep. Go figure.
<kwwii> hehe, editing photos with UfRAW and GIMP
<kwwii> it's something you do if you cannot do anything else
<troy_s> kwwii: Sadly, the guy was smug enough to think that he really gets it.
<troy_s> kwwii: I _would_ .
<kwwii> like a proof of concept that one could theoretically edit pics on linux
<troy_s> kwwii: The point is that people are _totally_ in the dark about deep colour.
<troy_s> kwwii: And by really, I mean like 'not even in the same timezone' dark.
<kwwii> oh, even some of the best designers don't understand how computer hardware relates colour info
<troy_s> kwwii: I was honestly going to tell him to selectively blur an 8bpc image and watch for posterization, but then I realized that he wouldn't notice it. Brutal.
<kwwii> lol
<troy_s> kwwii: Most about everyone I know understands what the hell deep colour is and why it is _mandatory_ for any manipulation. It's just ... uh ... *cough* symptomatic.
<troy_s> kwwii: No better when our group seems to think that banding is related to deep colour and not the 6bit TN panels everyone is looking at.
<troy_s> kwwii: It's really a tough struggle.
<troy_s> kwwii: So are you working on the uh... memenu?
<kwwii> lol, exactly
<kwwii> nope
<kwwii> mpt did the design of it and the dx team the implementation
<kwwii> great, it started snowing again
<troy_s> kwwii: It's... uh.
<troy_s> kwwii: Snow?
<troy_s> kwwii: You back home?
<kwwii> yepp
<kwwii> leaving on sunday again though
<kwwii> it has been snowing here on more than off for the last month
<kwwii> vish: hey, which branch are you pushing all your changes to? is lp:humanity in use anymore?
<vish> kwwii: i'm pushing changes only when we are done tweaking the icons
<vish> to lp:humanity
<kwwii> vish: ok so elementary is the working branch and humanity the release
<vish> yeah
<kwwii> vish: I wondered where the debian directly went ;)
<vish> kwwii: andrew takes care of that stuff :D , he has a ppa branch
<kwwii> hrm, well, we need to get a package in today for alpha3
<kwwii> I guess he is asleep already
<vish> kwwii: what we can do is just use his ppa branch and update the theme
<vish> the last release was on jan26 or something
<kwwii> ok, I'll look into it
<kwwii> we need those soundMenu icons
<kwwii> because the soundMenu will be in A3
<kwwii> ;)
<vish> hehe..
<troy_s> Night all. Be good.
 * vish hopes kwwii can also get Bug #498182 fixed ;p
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 498182 in indicator-application "Indicator-application does not support vertical panels" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/498182
<kwwii> hehe, not my job :P
<vish> ;0
<kwwii> vish: so, https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/humanity/release is what is in lucid now
<kwwii> and andrew has a ppa with changes
<kwwii> but I wonder if he has a bzr repo for it?
<vish> kwwii: so how do you want it? [the index.theme also needs fixing]  , shall i just use the release repo and request merge?
 * vish checks when a3 is
<kwwii> vish: it would be best if you could check out https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/humanity/release and suggest a merge
<kwwii> that way, I know that I am not missing anything
<vish> kwwii: sure, will do that
<kwwii> vish: killer, thanks!
<vish> kwwii: a3 is on the 25th , and to add changes in the changelog , there are a huge number of bugs that have been fixed... can i do it by mon 14th?
<kwwii> vish: yes, of course ;)
<vish> great :)
<kwwii> in the future we should get andrew working directly on those packages
<kwwii> we should add a ppa for the team
<kwwii> makes sense
<vish> kwwii: hmm , so the monochrome icons are all supposed to be used only in the panel? and with the name -panel, right? the other icon can be color and be used in the dialogue windows right?
<kwwii> vish: that is the idea, not sure if the implementation is that far along though
<kwwii> vish: in the long run we want to use -symbolic anyway so I don't think that there is a comprehensive plan for -panel
<vish> yeah
<kwwii> ie for now it seems to be a work around until we can implement it correctly
<vish> kwwii: ted mentioned he could just write a script and quickly change them in one go
<kwwii> vish: yeah, I should talk to him about that
<vish> kwwii: the dialogue windows use the icons without the -panel tags , and if the sound menu is done , i could fix 2 bugs regarding the sound icon problem ;)
 * kwwii adss ted mentioned he could just write a script and quickly change  them in one go
<kwwii> to his todo list
<darkmatter> vish: II just read the funniest thing ever. I laughed so hard I almost wet myself
<darkmatter> vish: GIMP is "a high-end application for professionals".  ROTFLMFAO
<thorwil> at least it wasn't claimed that darkmatter would have a sophisticated sense of humor
 * thorwil -> lunch
<darkmatter> thorwil: what. I can't find ludicrous claims highly amusing? "P
<thorwil> sure you can ;)
<vish> darkmatter: beggers can't be choosers ;p
 * vish runs
 * darkmatter throw a hungry hulk-sized zombie on vish
 * thorwil watches as a flock of seagulls take the zombie apart mid-air
<darkmatter> an '80's band ate my zombie? :(
 * darkmatter kills a flock of seagulls. bad! no comeback tour for you!
<thorwil> lol
 * thorwil goes for a walk
<dashua> zniavre, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/42326/screenshot_004_cLD63t.png
<dashua> Fixed the bookmarks toolbar.  Had to use a .css file. =/
<zniavre> that s nice
<zniavre> this theme can replace the darkroom
<dashua> I think psyke is working on that.
<zniavre> ho i believe you were the author of DR
<dashua> Oh no.  kwwii and psyke are.
<zniavre> by the way modify murrine engine is too complicated for me
<dashua> I haven't looked at the code yet for the border_colors.
<zniavre> i will use pixmap sadly
<zniavre> a kind of workaround (as your css)
<dashua> Yeah, now you are stuck with one color.
<zniavre> yep i like my black/white concept
<dashua> That is nice.  Are you working on Lucidity?
<zniavre> not really only the progressbar idea wich is done
 * zniavre does not like at all the new volume control into notification applet
<zniavre> i hav the feeling like the rhythmbox icon looks too small
<zniavre> i really think they could leave the old gnome-volume-control-applet available
<troy_s> zniavre: It's still there if you want it.
<zniavre> i can't find it
<zniavre> do you remember the name please?
<zniavre> sorry to insist but it's not available anymore
<zniavre> i guess it's the first time im not happy with new stuff in ubuntu
<troy_s> zniavre: It's a panel application, is it not?
<troy_s> zniavre: Should be right click on panel and 'add to panel'
<troy_s> zniavre: Not running Lucid, so it is possible they yanked it I suppose. No big deal, it would be in the repos somewhere.
<zniavre> there is no more volume control (simple one "as before")
<zniavre> it was a part of gnome-applet but volume stuff is deleted
<zniavre> i spent the last 45mn to find it
<zniavre> :o)
<troy_s> zniavre: Must still be in a repo - look for gnome panel stuff.
<zniavre> trust me it is not ...http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7408/captureie.png
<troy_s> zniavre: What the lord is that teradactyl looking icon mess next to the x chat icon?
<zniavre> nicotine (soulseek) icon
<troy_s> zniavre: _wow_.
<zniavre> it is so bad ?   (homemade ...)
<troy_s> zniavre: Are those stock Lucid monochrome icons?
<zniavre> i made them
<zniavre> to "fit" humanity
<zniavre> i did my best but im not designer at all, just playing with inkscape to learn
<troy_s> zniavre: Ahh... I thought they were stock.
<zniavre> they were much better ... but no they are mine
<zniavre> did you find them so awfull ?
<troy_s> zniavre: Not at all. Just wondering what the hell the teradactyl was.
<zniavre> http://slsknet.org/
<troy_s> zniavre: Figures. My personal feeling on instrumentation glyphs is that they should be more tied to the abstract goal as to what the thing accomplishes (given context of culture and such of course)
<troy_s> zniavre: I'm plus on one the chat bubble, or a musical note, etc., I don't know if I'd support a particular application as a monochrome icon in the tray. It should probably end up classified under a particular type of application. Heads the way of windows.
<troy_s> zniavre: Where there is just this godawful pileup of useless applications that turns the tray into a mini task panel.
<zniavre> in fact this nicotine is the most important application for me  (im not using it as p2p) all my friends in the real life and all around the world using it since at least 8 years im now a small dev of nicotine since im using ubuntu ( a bit offtopic but for me this apps hav his place into systray)
<zniavre> (in also a good chat application)*
<lfaraone> I  know that the Ubuntu logo is trademarked, but under what license are the logo renditions u nder?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-13
<Flannel> lfaraone: Renditions?
<lfaraone> Flannel: sorry, the logo image files themselves.
<Flannel> Which one(s)?
<troy_s> Flannel  lfaraone - It doesn't matter which ones. Canonical owns that logo. Period.
<troy_s> Flannel lfaraone - http://www.ubuntu.com/aboutus/trademarkpolicy
<Flannel> troy_s: I'm aware
<troy_s> Flannel: Ok. Seemed a strange question "Which one(s)"
<thorwil> kwwii: how do you feel about a page on the wiki that comes down to just a single link to gnome-look? said link hidden in bad markup
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Lucid/LucidX
<thorwil> i feel the urge to just remove the page in response to a lack of trying to get this right :/
<troy_s> This is brilliant. http://www.andyrutledge.com/creativity-is-not-design-test-2.php
<brettalton> who posted this http://www.andyrutledge.com/creativity-is-not-design-test-2.php? My laptop unexpectedly rebooted
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-02-14
<zniavre> hello
<zniavre> i need help for a gtkrc problem: i do not understand why my menubar is big somebody can check my gtkrc and tell me what is wrong please ?
<zniavre> http://paste.ubuntu-fr-secours.org/src-55614
<zniavre> i tried so many things without success, i m a bit stuck on it
<zniavre_> haha finaly fixed OOo menubar and quite well im a bit happy
<zniavre_> but if somebody want to tell me how to reduce the size of the other menubars i will be in heaven.
<kwwii> zniavre_: what did you fix? and how?
<zniavre_> i got black menu background and black menu bar >the fonts was black (unreadable)
<zniavre_> i spent 1hour to find how to change it without modify the whole theme
<zniavre_> http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1681/captureai.png
<zniavre_> menus does not get border but still (a bit ) useable
<zniavre_> just adding text[NORMAL] = @bg_color to murrine-menu-item but it changed menubar AND menu items
<kwwii> hehe, it's tricky ;)
<zniavre_> radio/button check are also tricky
<kwwii> indeed
 * kwwii is off to the airport
<zniavre> do you know where i can find some Xperience gtkrc please?
<zniavre> http://art.gnome.org/themes/gtk2/1058
<zniavre> thank me
<zniavre> :o)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-07
<coz_> good day all
<darkmatter> heya coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
<coz_> darkmatter,  I found a sit to upload audio like flickr for graphics
<darkmatter> nice
<coz_> darkmatter,  I am uploading now  will link when finished
 * darkmatter is currently hacking together firefox theme :O
<darkmatter> kk
<coz_> oo firefox theme:)  although I really enjoy that one you showd me
<darkmatter> coz_: http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/456/screenshotfbj.png <-- modding the elementary firefox to be more native, less crap. nearly all the icons are coming from stock, minus just a few
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh nice... I am getting tired of elementary stuff though,,way to much like a mac  :(
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. bit I'm just doing it for fun. it's been almost a year since I themed ffx. I'd rather brush the rust out with hackerage than real work :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  understood but I didnt mean to discourage... many love elementary stuff as I did at first
<darkmatter> cozthe overall project is ok. but it is decidely mac-ish. the whole "fresh ideas" thing isn't very fresh :P)
<coz_> darkmatter,  mac look is somewhat boring to me...especially now that someone said to me " mac did it right,,why play with anything else"
<darkmatter> lol
<coz_> darkmatter,  I did a double face palm and a "home alone"  screem when they said that to me :)
<darkmatter> coz_: the problem I have isnt so much the 'look'. that can be changed. I just don't like the cloning of mac apps. the only really appealing thing about eleentary (imho) is the lack of menubars. because we all know how I hate such things, global or otherwise :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  i agree,, I actually find it a bit better than mac's appearance
<darkmatter> not saying they're not doing a good job. I give them credit for all the code being committed. just to much mac :P
<darkmatter> coz_: buy I do like "some" of it a lot, like the friendly error page being worked on for midori. kinda what I was talking about years ago regarding less error, more love, ala BeOS. quite diff, but same vein
<coz_> darkmatter,  yeah i know DanRabbit and the guys are doing some fine work for sure
<darkmatter> coz_: things like the error page http://browse.deviantart.com/customization/screenshots/nix/?order=5&offset=24#/d38wqvd
<coz_> nice  :)
<darkmatter> because I've talked about shit like that for/// ummm/// lost track of how many years :P
<coz_> :)  yes I am well aware :)
<coz_> ok you guys have my flicker   http://www.flickr.com/photos/57304627@N04/
<coz_> here is my soundcloud    http://soundcloud.com/cozziemoto
<darkmatter> has "goofy" wording that could be less 'cool kid' crap, but the lack of text wall and actual choices beyong shreaking like a banshee woirks
<darkmatter> k. looking in a sec. need coffee :P
<coz_> there are 3 pages... mm I must have been up all night :)
<coz_> eww  the transcoding they do there is not that great   damn damn damn
<thorwil> oh boy, the Ubuntu DVD Packaging Artwork thread is so full of naivety, i don't even know where to start
 * thorwil deletes thread and ponders unsubscribing once again
<doctormo> thorwil: morning
<thorwil> morning doctormo
<doctormo> thorwil: can I get your thoughts on the ideas in this wallpaper http://imagebin.org/136621 (not the execution, I have more work to do)
<thorwil> hmmm
<thorwil> doctormo: is that a mother happy to see the father coming from the other side?
<thorwil> doctormo: it looks pretty well balanced to me
<thorwil> doctormo: the far distance is maybe a bit dark. might be ok if you assume the sun is in the back of the viewer
<doctormo> thorwil: Thanks :-) they also wanted a plain version, I'm still playing with it all http://imagebin.org/136624
<thorwil> doctormo: stream needs to be brighter in front
<thorwil> who are 'they'?
<doctormo> Edubuntu, trying to make a concept they'll be happy with.
<doctormo> Since I think they've been disapointed with the results so far.
<thorwil> really? a world map lacking new zealand  sets a high standard!
<doctormo> Awe, now you're just being vicious. what's this thread about on the mailing list? I haven't read it.
<thorwil> doctormo: then don't do it ;)
<thorwil> it's about how almost complete ignorance of the visual identity somehow allows to create artwork that can be used over a long time. and which application beats which, with gimp, ps, inkscape, corel draw and illustrator in the ring :}
<doctormo> thorwil: I don't think I understand. You're saying that the discussion is about creating DVD box artwork which has no branding?
<thorwil> doctormo: it's my point that it is somewhat absurd ... the author expressed that ignoring the ubuntu visual identity would allow long-time reuse of the work. he made it sound like the identity would change every few months ...
<doctormo> heh
<doctormo> How about every 5 years
<doctormo> The author is slightly cookoo when it comes to Ubuntu art anyway. Check out his deviantArt page.
<thorwil> isn't much of deviantart slightly cookoo?
<doctormo> thorwil: It's based on the innner most parts of people's brains. Squishy.
<thorwil> http://identitydesigned.com/royal-mail/
<doctormo> thorwil: God the colour is aweful.
 * thorwil will have that colour for breakfast and like it!
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-08
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-09
<doctormo> thorwil: Hello
<thorwil> hi doctormo
<doctormo> thorwil: Is a competition ok if the aim of the event is to train underdeveloped artists?
<thorwil> doctormo: i'd say yes, if that objective is clear to everyone
<doctormo> Yes, thanks. Having a good day thorwil?
<thorwil> doctormo: mixed. always suffering from the what-i-should-be-doing vs what-i-would-like-to-do split :)
<thorwil> at least the weather is flooding us with sunshine, here
<thorwil> doctormo: you?
<doctormo> thorwil: the sunshine sounds nice. I've just come out of a really harsh night of sleepish.
<doctormo> recovery will take all day I think
<doctormo> Plus it's so damn dry here. 5% humidity last night. I had to turn on the vaporisor to improve things.
<thorwil> oh. don'r even have a vaporiser and never missed one
<thorwil> doctormo: what kind of competition do you have in mind?
<doctormo> thorwil: Not mine, was advising someone else.
<thorwil> doctormo: in some way, typical assignments in design foundation classes are similar to contests. same task for everyone and results will be compared, though there's usually no "winner"
<thorwil> comparison and reflection within the group is important, then
<doctormo> Yes, makes sense. Of course winners can be useful too. I guess it depends on the kind of play environment that is sort to teach.
<doctormo> thorwil: I wish there was some way to make the art team more professional.
<doctormo> We don't have good training (any at all)
<doctormo> We're not using the beginners team
<doctormo> And we can't seem to get rid of that carbuncle jbaer, who seems to delight in making a competition out of everything.
<thorwil> doctormo: so do i. i'm currently operating under the assumption that i can't afford to really care, though
<doctormo> yea, I know, it's a royal pain, because there are teams who know to come directly to us
<doctormo> and then there are teams that come to the team and are mislead.
<thorwil> i'm wondering if anyone will bother setting john's "Most artist are posting to ..." http://www.flickr.com/groups/uawt-10-0/ straight
<doctormo> thorwil: I don't understand, he's not saying most artists are posting to
<doctormo> And even if he was, there is nowhere else to post to.
<doctormo> I certainly haven't enabled the deviantArt submission.
<thorwil> doctormo: actually, he is saying that
<thorwil> doctormo: why that? wasn't the last design blog post about that pointing to your deviantart group?
<doctormo> thorwil: If you look, I've switched off submissions to the gallery containing last cycle's.
<doctormo> I just have no confidence that this competition makes any sort of sense.
<thorwil> doctormo: i think you didn't communicate that, so far
<thorwil> doctormo: so does that mean the design blog and wiki happily point to a place where nobody can submit anything? and on top, this fact hasn't led to any noise?
<doctormo> thorwil: I don't think the link from the wiki and design blog should ever have pointed to deviantArt (for the same reasons I don't think
<doctormo> they should point to flikr)
<doctormo> the whole point of the deviantArt thing is to encourage existing deviantArt users and especially the 700 members of ubuntu-artists group to get involved.
<doctormo> I could quite easily just point them to somewhere else using a blog entry or two.
<thorwil> http://design.canonical.com/2011/01/the-natty-wallpaper-contest-an-important-update/
<thorwil> i mixed something up. that one points to flickr
<doctormo> yep, that agrees with my memory
<thorwil> but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase does point to http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/ for "illustrative" wallpapers
<doctormo> would you like me to fix it?
<thorwil> doctormo: depends on the fix ;)
<doctormo> thorwil: there you gp
<doctormo> go
<thorwil> doctormo: *if* Iain didn't clear this up with you, he deserves this to fall back on him
<doctormo> I can't even get Iain to remove to redundant and confusing deviantArt group. If you see him, let him know.
<thorwil> how lovely organized it all seems
<doctormo> thorwil: It's very "I don't know what"
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-10
<thorwil> iainfarrell: hi! i hope you have or will notice doctormo's edit to UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase, changing the link for "illustrative" wallpapers from deviantart to flickr
<thorwil> iainfarrell: it would be good if you could remove your redundant deviantart group
<thorwil> doctormo: shouldn't that be "_Which_ Creative Commons License should i use?"
<thorwil> doctormo: not wanting credit does not rule out a need or desire to protect against exploitation via privatization
<doctormo> thorwil: Both Which and What are valid.
<doctormo> thorwil: The problem is, not wanting credit falls outside of creative commons
<doctormo> And most artists do want credit, or they push it off into the public domain and deny they ever made it.
<thorwil> hmm
<thorwil> doctormo: if i may note something stylistically, the tips of the arrows shouldn't be in the boxes, but rather stop before or within the box outlines
 * thorwil -> dinner
<doctormo> thorwil: I agree on the style note, I blame inkscape.
<doctormo> I had enough trouble trying to make inkscape not crash.
<thorwil> over here, inkscape tends to crash only when pulling strokes in bezier editing
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-11
<ray_> Hello
<ray_> I will be back
<ray_> OK, I am back. Is there anyone here?
<ray_> Hello
<ray_> Hello
<doctormo> thorwil: Caused a bit of a panic there on the mailing list
<thorwil> doctormo: can't stand too much harmony :}
<doctormo> thorwil: She does get a little whiny in the first season.
<thorwil> in some design schools, it's not uncommon that students are brought to tears in entry courses. even where things are handled much more gently, criticism still is rigorous and straight to the point.
<thorwil> if not, they are doing it wrong!
<thorwil> how to marry that with "everyone is a born artist" and "we're all cuddly fluffy bunnies welcoming everyone and everything nice in our circle of happy-joy-love"?
<coz_> hey all
<thorwil> aloha
 * darkmatter throws several unwanted pixels at coz_
<coz_> darkmatter,  hey guy
<darkmatter> o/
<coz_> darkmatter,  I removed all of my music from that site    I dont like it much   I may go to  tunecore instead
<coz_> darkmatter,  and audio is different than artwork,,, in my eyes
<darkmatter> I see. so soundcloud, umm... "blows chunks", or some similar metaphor?
<coz_> darkmatter,  well...although "all rights reserved"  is on the site  tunecore offers  sale of music via  itunes and amazon etc  ...although you have to pay for submission  ,, it makes more sense to me
<darkmatter> ahhh
<coz_> darkmatter,  besides ,, even if I get only 1 sale  it still money :)
<darkmatter> hehe
 * darkmatter is actually going to start some real work on a few apps today :O
<coz_> darkmatter,  you always do real work :)
<darkmatter> coz_: lol. sometimes
<darkmatter> when I feel up to it
<coz_> darkmatter,  yep I understand
<darkmatter> coz_: switched to empathy. in general I like it better than pidgin, but it needs extraneous message suppression, general irc persistence (so I can close the bloody chat windows, lol), and more informative messages for "I wanna be your friend" IM moments :P
<darkmatter> but it's pretty decent, plus facebook actually works with it
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok  .. I done really use Im much
<darkmatter> coz_: I kinda have to, half my contacts are oblivious to irc xD
<coz_> ah ok :)
<darkmatter> coz_: i'm going for a simple user-level naming scheme for my defaults, regardless of actual application names (as originally intended)
<coz_> cool...this is good ...yes?
<darkmatter> basically I'm flipping the bird to the ecosystem. screw branding, its evil
<darkmatter> coz_: so a browser = "Web", email client= "Mail", address book="Contacts" etc. third party stuff can do what it wants, but defaults are getting debranded :P
<coz_> cool
<darkmatter> coz_: not "innovative" by any means, it's been done ad infinitum, just not on "traditional" OS's
<darkmatter> but it makes sense from a "get stuff done" perspective
<coz_> absolutely
<darkmatter> coz_: I _tried_ suggesting that in gnome-design once upon a blue moon, I got the "it's contrary to the ecosystem" argument. lol. I'm sorry, but users are more important than corporate or project brandin
<darkmatter> g*
<coz_> darkmatter,  did you expect something other than that?  :)
<darkmatter> coz_: no, not really. lol
<coz_> :)
<coz_> darkmatter,   I am going in and out on irc ,, I am not feeling well ...so I may just  log off  unexpectedly
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm planning to be a jerk and registering third party software as such if the user sets it as default :D
<darkmatter> kk
<darkmatter> so, say you have a generic "doodle' entry (not that I'd call it that lol, just sake of argument) for graphics work. you install bloatoshop and set it as default. it gets re-registered as "doodle" ;)
<coz_> oh!
<darkmatter> you still have an "applications" thing for everything else. but yor "common tools" get generic entries so you don't have to think. lol
<coz_> cool
<darkmatter> coz_: instead of having to browse/search/change categories for doing stuff
<coz_> darkmatter,  sounds reasonable to me :)
<darkmatter> coz_: and everything will get tied together by Mercury (kinda like a secondary messaging bus, more of a helper really)
<coz_> cool...way to complex for me to comprehend :)
<darkmatter> coz_: at a technical level only. the complexity is for conceptual simplicity. lack of thought where it matters (what the user sees and does)
<coz_> darkmatter,  a much more important focus i believe...as is  accessibility
<darkmatter> to really simplify you need that backend work, instead of just burying crap
<coz_> ok I need to break here,,, still not feeling 100%
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-12
<raknorak> hi there
<raknorak> is the menubar icon for power finel in natty yet?
<raknorak> i think it's to big and crisp, it wont match the rest of these icons
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-02-13
<palhmbs> hey guys!
<palhmbs> I've just been playing with qt4-designer...
<palhmbs> is there a good channel to talk about the problems I've been having?
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-02-06
<codepal> anyone here built a gimp 2.8 on Ubuntu Precise?
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-02-08
<Windipity> #/ JOIN cs399Group4
<Windipity> http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=326
<Windipity> This is a link to join a beginners forum
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-02-09
<coz_> the list of names keeps dwindling :(
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-02-10
<SirLinux`> yo
<SirLinux`> someone working on cinema 4d ?
#ubuntu-artwork 2012-02-12
<coz_> hey all
#ubuntu-artwork 2013-02-04
<djtuxy> Hi
#ubuntu-artwork 2015-02-03
<mynameisdeleted> I'm willing tto conribute lots of 4k and 5k resolution desktops
<mynameisdeleted> which ubuntu 14.10 does not come with
<mynameisdeleted> all I require is attribution under creative commons
<mynameisdeleted> all comercial use and modification is allowed provide they give my attribution
<mynameisdeleted> can artwork distributed under such terms be accepeted as part of the ubuntu official distro?
<mynameisdeleted> as it may help users of ubuntu on 5k imac screens, and 4k retina screens?
