#ubuntu-manual 2010-08-09
<thorwil> good morning!
<ChrisWoollard> morning
<shrini> hello team
<shrini> what about giving the table of contents on the website?
<shrini> so that people can know what is there in the book
<thorwil> shrini: ideally we would have the entire content online
<shrini> that too great
<thorwil> but currently the worry is about bringing out the next version at all
<shrini> thorwil: yes
<humphreybc> hey
<thorwil> humphreybc: so how much fan mail did you receive since your infamous communication disaster disguised as blog post?
<vish> s/infamous/ /
<vish> thorwil: he'll survive ;)
<humphreybc> I just added some stuff here
<humphreybc> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/baZkHCQiMu
<vish> grr , why does my xchat not open links!
<humphreybc> thorwil: I got a few more twitter followers and OMG! Ubunu! gained a lot more page views and subscribers, if that's what you mean? :P
<vish> humphreybc: ha! so it was a marketing strategy from the start! ;)
<vish> every time i'm having to select open link in browser :/ , damn you xchat!
<thorwil> great, the masses are even dumber than i thought, then
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> right
<humphreybc> so now I'm going to make a pretty infographic that should outline our plans and timeline
<ChrisWoollard> nice e-mail godbyk
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Thanks.
<godbyk> Just in case I can't make the meeting. :)
<godbyk> I see thorwil's been proofreading the notes on the pad. ;-)
<thorwil> i can't help it!
<godbyk> Just couldn't refrain, could you, thorwil!
<ChrisWoollard> It's always nice when information is shared. It helps people to know what is going on and where we are at :)
<ChrisWoollard> This seems to be a good time of day. Lots of people are around.
<humphreybc> does anyone know how the quickshot guys are going?
<thorwil> humphreybc: i vaguely recall that flan has other worries, currently, but hopes to get at it again, soonish
<ChrisWoollard> Has anything happened with the maverick manual yet (has it been started)?
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: not as far as I know
<jenkins> i think we should copy lucid-e2 into it and start
<ChrisWoollard> That was my thoughts exactly
<ChrisWoollard> e2 is almost there so should be good for maverick
<jenkins> I also agree with your comments on the etherpad. There are a frew app changes in mavrick
<humphreybc> jenkins: Quickshot?
<jenkins> yea, it may be ready for mavrick but flan and i are rather busy at the moment
<humphreybc> okay
<humphreybc> do you think you could have a stable release ready by September 10?
<jenkins> I am going to try and do some today, I am having to learn loads of new stuff for it at the moment.
<jenkins> not sure
<jenkins> I am off the week before
<jenkins> but it also needs the server to be finished
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: Did you set up a build of e2?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Oops, I didn't.
<godbyk> I'll build one and upload it real quick, though.
<godbyk> I just haven't updated the script to make a nice link on the page.
<ChrisWoollard> Ok
<humphreybc> tell me what's missing: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1887929/dev-infographic.png
<thorwil> drop-shadow?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/builds/lucid-e2.pdf
<godbyk> reflections?
<godbyk> glow?
<godbyk> :-P
<humphreybc> ...
<ChrisWoollard> When do you think you can get a like posted somethere?
<humphreybc> huh?
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I'm not sure. The problem is that the html page a builds.ubuntu-manual.org is regenerated by a shell script that creates and uploads all the pdfs.
<godbyk> and since e1 and e2 are completely separate, there's not an easy way for them to have both on the same page right now.
<thorwil> humphreybc: if you don't add actual points in time along an evenly divided time axis, just text in the usual vertical arrangement will be better
<humphreybc> thorwil: nah, i don't want to do that :P
<godbyk> humphreybc: what's 'team/other' mean?
<humphreybc> it's like a key
<ChrisWoollard> You could always do http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/e1 or /e2
<humphreybc> manual stuff on the bottom, everything else on the top
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: yeah, I'll probably turn builds.ubuntu-manual.org into a php script that just pulls in the e1, e2, etc. subpages together.
<godbyk> but I need to write the php script and update the e1 and e2 build scripts first.
<godbyk> nothing particularly difficult, I just haven't done it yet.
<ChrisWoollard> or rather lucid-e1 / lucid-e2 to reflect the branches
<ChrisWoollard> I understand. Time is nobodys friend
<godbyk> humphreybc: working on the glossary would break the writing freeze for translators.
<humphreybc> oh right, translators
<ChrisWoollard> Can we also get that url for e2 sent out to the team to check for bugs?
<nisshh> humphreybc: hey, you have alot of people in my loco pissed off about your blog post :)
<godbyk> we were going to try to give the translators more time this round, but it may not be possible depending on how much work we have to do for maverick.
<humphreybc> nisshh: ha
<ChrisWoollard> Where is the blog post? I feel I need to get pee'd off with somebody.
<humphreybc> okay, refresh the page or click here
<nisshh> humphreybc: a WOMAN said this and i quote "nisshh: kick his ass for me!"
<humphreybc> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1887929/dev-infographic.png
<humphreybc> nisshh: I bet I know who that is
<nisshh> humphreybc: hmmm, have a guess?
<humphreybc> Melissa Draper
<nisshh> haha
<nisshh> nope
<humphreybc> we all happy with the infographic timeline thing?
<nisshh> looks cool
<ChrisWoollard> It is very pretty. Obviously done by a graphics designer or such like.
<humphreybc> that would be me?
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: lol
<godbyk> sure. we'll see how it works. :)
<ChrisWoollard> My point is this. Look at the Ubuntu release schedule and yours and compare. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases The ubuntu one is practical, yours is flashy and pretty.
<thorwil> ChrisWoollard: and now try to copy some text from it
<humphreybc> sheesh
<humphreybc> I aint stopping anyone from making a plain text one
<ChrisWoollard> Don't get me wrong though it looks nice.
<humphreybc> the idea is that it's just a simple thing so we know what we're doing and when
<nisshh> id agree with ChrisWoollard IF it was more complicated like Ubuntu's release schedule
<nisshh> but its not, so prettyness doesnt matter
<humphreybc> it's just a bloody internal graphic I made in a few minutes to illustrate our schedule
<nisshh> humphreybc: yea, i know, i was just saying :)
 * nisshh will shutup now...
<humphreybc> it's not like we're worse off because it exists
 * ChrisWoollard will also shutup
<nisshh> oh, yea, we are all going to hell now :)
<humphreybc> lol
<humphreybc> EAT MEAT
<nisshh> hehe
<humphreybc> are we all happy with those dates?
<humphreybc> they seem feasible?
<thorwil> humphreybc: right, it's no reason to get worked up at all, it just embodies the fact that you still have to learn what it means to be a designer ;p
<nisshh> humphreybc: well, im not saying change it, but is e2 ready for release by then?
<humphreybc> thorwil: now you're just trying to wind me up
<nisshh> thorwil: haha
 * ChrisWoollard is rofl
<humphreybc> e2 was ready ages ago
<godbyk> humphreybc: well, it is the new pastime. :-)
<nisshh> humphreybc: true, but translations and whatnot for it?
<humphreybc> thorwil: I have to say this, but just because I don't design things like you doesn't make it wrong.
<nisshh> heh
<nisshh> humphreybc: i cant wait till your next rant on OMG
<nisshh> gonna be a ripper
<nisshh> :)
 * ChrisWoollard wants to subscibe
<nisshh> heh
<jenkins> I think it is spaced too much there would be a lot of scrolling on a small screen. What about making it vertical?
<humphreybc> jenkins: I think you should go and die in a fire.
<nisshh> heh
<thorwil> humphreybc: you just further confirm what i said. just one point of several: vertical scrolling
<ChrisWoollard> Maybe it was designed for a 28" Mac screen.
<trijntje> Hi all, is there any news about the problems with launchpad and translations?
<nisshh> trijntje: not as far as i know
<nisshh> ill check
<jenkins> how much is left on lucid-e2 godbyk?
<trijntje> ok, thanks. Is there somewhere I could check these things myself?
<nisshh> humphreybc: http://identi.ca/notice/45149042
<humphreybc> nisshh: yeah, Tim actually rang me about that
<nisshh> trijntje: no idea, im just looking at the LP blog and identica feeds
 * ChrisWoollard is pmsl
<nisshh> humphreybc: interested?
<humphreybc> nisshh: Interested in the visual part, but not the development part
<nisshh> humphreybc: fair enough
<godbyk> jenkins: what do you mean?
<jenkins> as far as layout etc
<godbyk> Oh, I think we're going to just keep the same layout for e2.
<godbyk> no sense making a lot of extra work for ourselves just yet.
<thorwil> +1
<jenkins> ok, I will have a flick through and check for visual errors
 * humphreybc added a drop shadow
<trijntje> nisshh, I dont know much about LP or the manual, as a translator I just want to know when its 'safe' to translate the manual again
<godbyk> trijntje: It never seems to be foolproof.
<godbyk> trijntje: As soon as we think it's safe, something burps again.
<nisshh> trijntje: yea, fair enough
<jenkins> trijntje: we have changed the number of people who can change the settings on the project from ~450 to 7
<humphreybc> jenkins: great work on that Luke
<godbyk> jenkins: and then promptly fiddled with the translation settings. :-P
<trijntje> jenkins, that seems like a good idea ;)
<jenkins> thanks humphreybc, godbyk I did not touch them :P
<dpm> trijntje, godbyk, last week the import settings on translations were changed to make sure no demotions of translations to suggestions happen
<humphreybc> I'll blog about what our team is up to on Planet Ubuntu after the meeting
<trijntje> dpm, that is the problem I bumped into, is this now solved?
<godbyk> dpm: but by allowing automatic import of the translation template, that's precisely what can happen.  (if someone edits the .pot file and commits it to the branch.)
<dpm> godbyk, no, the problem was not on the template
<dpm> editing the pot template and committing is a normal procedure
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: the e2 coverpage. Does something need to happen, because it looks the same at the moment?
<godbyk> I'm not sure what the translation settings were last week (they seem to change occasionally for some unknown reason), but I used to have lucid-e1 as the focused branch and all of the automatic import/export stuff disabled completely.
<godbyk> dpm: That's true. Except that lucid-e1 is in a writing freeze and the pot should never be updated.  The problem is that it *can* still be updated.  And sometimes launchpad burps and seems to reread the pot file for no apparent reason.
<dpm> godbyk, I'm not sure who changes the settings (they do not do it by themselves), but prompted by an e-mail on the translators list, I made sure an admin changed the settings to correct ones
<trijntje> godbyk, I do know that the focus changed to e2 about two weeks ago and then changed back again to e1
<godbyk> dpm: Yeah, I assume it's someone that changes the settings, but the email notifications we receive never specify who.
<dpm> godbyk, it's up to the maintainers to make sure no new pot files are never committed during freeze
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Yeah, I probably need to edit the code to point at the new covers or something.
<dpm> that applies for the manual and for any other project
<godbyk> dpm: Sure. Or we can just disable the auto-import of the pot file and be done with it, right?
<dpm> godbyk, right, but I think committing changes to a frozen branch is the wrong approach. Rather than continuosly changing the settings, maintainers should simply not commit new POT templates to frozen branches.
<jenkins> godbyk: for the branches that are frozen could we not change the owner to a restricted group? I don't want to stop people contributing but it may help us control it as we have a large team
<godbyk> jenkins: we could, but the restricted group for e1, for instance, would need to include the translation editors (so they can commit directly).
<jenkins> godbyk: thats ok we just do another launchpad team, no clue what to call it :)
<godbyk> dpm: I don't think we've had many problems with the pot files being updated automatically.  I just disabled all the auto-import stuff to remove a couple variables that may have been causing havoc with the translations being demoted to suggestions.
<jenkins> anyone in here able to do gtk spinners?
<nisshh> jenkins: maybe
<jenkins> nisshh: could you help me work out how to do it? http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/stable/GtkSpinner.html is the docs on it
<nisshh> jenkins: sure
<jenkins> thanks
 * jenkins still has bugs in his screen
<thorwil> bugs on screen is bad enough
<nisshh> jenkins: its really easy
<nisshh> jenkins: you just grab a new spinner: self.spinner = gtk.Spinner()
<godbyk> I'm gonna go to bed so I can sleep for a few hours before this meeting.
<godbyk> See ya soon.
<nisshh> jenkins: and start it: self.spinner.start()
<nisshh> godbyk: cya
<godbyk> (Btw, you should clear up the ever-present #ubuntu-manual/#ubuntu-meeting confusion. Email says one thing, wiki says another, I think.)
<nisshh> true
<ChrisWoollard> good might godbyk
<ChrisWoollard> which is weird because i just had breakfast
<nisshh> jenkins: the default duration is 1000 ms
<nisshh> but that can be changed
<nisshh> so can a bunch of other stuff
<jenkins> thanks nisshh I will have a play , how did you get that all from the docs?
<nisshh> jenkins: you still there? :)
<nisshh> ah ok
<nisshh> jenkins: google :)
<nisshh> the pygtk docs are pretty crappy
<jenkins> i did a google and came up with nothing you must be better than i am
<nisshh> only useful for getting methods and finding out EXACTLY what they do
<nisshh> jenkins: i started with pygtk, so it comes naturally now
<nisshh> jenkins: your much better at straight python than me
<jenkins> nisshh: I learn everything as i need it for quickshot as thats the only thing I have done python with
<nisshh> jenkins: this pygtk stuff is for quickshot?
<nisshh> ye
<nisshh> yea
<jenkins> I want to make a spinner show whilst the info is being downloaded from the server.
<nisshh> ah yea
<nisshh> that should be easy as
<jenkins> what page did you read from?
<nisshh> i did a google search for pygtk spinner widget
<jenkins> thorwil: tell me about it they are annoying as anything and there is three of them
<nisshh> and came up with this: http://learnpygtk.org/pygtktutorial/spinner.html
<nisshh> i forgot, but i used to use that site when i was learning pygtk
<nisshh> its a very good one
<jenkins> I have just book marked the site
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> i also used one called zetcode
<nisshh> which is not as comprehensive
<nisshh> but has tutorials for alot more language bindings and stuff
<jenkins> cool thanks
<nisshh> np :)
<jenkins> nisshh any idea on how to set what image it uses http://ubuntuone.com/p/7Xa/ is the largest version avalible of the spinner
<nisshh> hmmm
<nisshh> that could be tricky
<nisshh> jenkins: i dont think you can, there is nothing like that in the pygtk docs
<nisshh> jenkins: all you can do with that widget is start stop hide show duration and steps
<nisshh> pretty basic widget
<jenkins> nisshh: there are three versions of that image included in ubuntu icons, each of different sizes
<nisshh> yea
<jenkins> they must have a use, may be I am trying to do the wrong thing with it
<nisshh> jenkins: what do you mean?
<jenkins> well there must be a way to specify what size it is. I might be using the wrong widget
<nisshh> the only similar widget is the gtkcellrendererspinner
<nisshh> which you have to place inside a cell
<nisshh> which is not what you would want
<jenkins> inside a cell as in a hbox or vbox?
<nisshh> no
<jenkins> o no thats not what I wnat
<nisshh> inside a cell of a treeview
<jenkins> just tried the example
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> you could always create your own custom widget jenkins
<nisshh> jenkins: http://zetcode.com/tutorials/pygtktutorial/customwidget/
<nisshh> you dont even need to create one
<nisshh> just modify the spinner widget
<ChrisWoollard> looking at the code for the title page. It looks like the images are all pdf's. Thorwil's new images are svg's. I am guessing that they need to be converted to pdf's for it to work. Is that right?
<jenkins> nisshh:  that is my challenge for today then
<thorwil> ChrisWoollard: yes, but for all i know, the build script takes care of that. except for the lulu covers, that will be commited as PDFs, too
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: iirc inkscape does it during the build, or it might have been changed to doing them before hand
<nisshh> jenkins: hehe, ok, but be warned, custom widgets are not the easiest thing to code
<jenkins> nisshh: hehe I guessed but here goes nothing :P
<nisshh> hehe
<jenkins> I have to find the original widget file first :D
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> jenkins: also, note that you will need to ship your custom widget with quickshot
<ChrisWoollard> in the ubuntu-manual.cls file there are currently references to all the pdf images. So it looks to me like a manual process to change the images over.
<jenkins> nisshh: already on it :)
<nisshh> cool
<jenkins> thnaks for your help nisshh
<jenkins> nisshh any idea where the widget source is? I have downloaded the source of python-gtk2-dev which i think it should be in but I can't find it
<jenkins> http://learnpygtk.org/pygtktutorial/spinner.html at the top it says it is in the ubuntu version and thats what I am looking at
<nisshh> jenkins: sorry i was afk there
<nisshh> hmm
<jenkins> its not very easy to find
<nisshh> heh
 * nisshh cant even get the page to laod anymore
<nisshh> dammit
<nisshh> there we go
<jenkins> http://bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=151763 is the patch but I would like to find the python. so that I can use it as an like the example one
<jenkins> *as an example
<nisshh> yea
<ChrisWoollard> I have justed the new coverpages (Revision 148). Feel free to have a look.
<nisshh> jenkins: dunno, dude
<jenkins> thanks for looking nisshh, I will keep digging
<nisshh> ok sure jenkins :)
<ChrisWoollard> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/382986/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2-r148.pdf
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard: nice
<jenkins> looks good ChrisWoollard
<c7p> ChrisWoollard: there are some duplicated entries in index (i.e F-Spot, Nautilus, Software Center's, Synaptic, Apt, gedit, Mozilla Firefox, Rythmbox ), i think it's considered as bug.
<ChrisWoollard> can you log it?
<c7p> you mean to file it as bug on lp ?
<ChrisWoollard> yes
<humphreybc> have a good meeting and make sure you email a summary to the list so I know what happened :)
<c7p> ok but I can fix it right now. Should I ?
<ChrisWoollard> go for it.
<c7p> the tex file is on branch ?
 * humphreybc is off to bed
<ChrisWoollard> c7p: You want to know where the tex file is?
<c7p> yes
<c7p> is that the file http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2/annotate/head%3A/main.tex  ?
<ChrisWoollard> it' should be /frontmatter/glossary-entries.tex
<ChrisWoollard> in e2
<ChrisWoollard> i think that is what you mean
<c7p> nope the main tex file (which includes the main text of the manual)
<ChrisWoollard> sorry
<ChrisWoollard> i had glossary in my head
<c7p> the link that i gave above isn't what I am looking for
<ChrisWoollard> i have not looked at the index, so don't really know how it works.
<ChrisWoollard> Maybe it is best just to file a bug on lp and then we can have a look at it later.
<c7p> ok
<c7p> actually i've just found the files but i have trouble submitting them back to branch from my local machine
<c7p> nevermind i an reporting the bug
<ChrisWoollard> what does it say in the submit error?
<c7p> file conflict or something like that
<c7p> i do what it tells me to but nothing
<c7p> ChrisWoollard: the pdf that you uploaded before is the one that you are working on ?
<ChrisWoollard> that is just the latest revision.
<ChrisWoollard> what happens if you do another pull
<c7p> ok ty :)
<ChrisWoollard> it is possible that because I did a push that it has got it's knickers in a twist.
<ChrisWoollard> i think last time i had to do an uncommit. then a pull. Then check my changes were still there. Then commit and push
<c7p> no no i have this problem for two months or so, I have to re-download but there is no need now, the bug is reported
<c7p> g2g cu on meeting
<ChrisWoollard> ok
<ChrisWoollard> laters
 * jenkins is not having much luck making his own spinner
<c7p> the meeting will take place in this channel right ?
<dutchie> yep
<Muscovy> I believe in #ubuntu-meeting
<brandonj> thats what the mails said
<dutchie> no, in here
<c7p> okey my bad on mail
<dutchie> everyone here?
<dutchie> godbyk, jenkins
<dutchie> flan, thorwil, vish
<JasonCook599> I'm here
<semioticrobotic> ready to roll
<dutchie> i make it meeting time
<brandonj> me too
<semioticrobotic> and so it is
<ChrisWoollard> Show is the deal. Here or #ubuntu-meeting?
<dutchie> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:01. The chair is dutchie.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<ChrisWoollard> Here. Lovely
<dutchie> ok, the agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<dutchie> ah, we have a thishumphreybc
<thishumphreybc> can't sleep
<thishumphreybc> figured I may as well pop along
 * highvoltage waves
<dutchie> hi highvoltage
<dutchie> and hi czajkowski as well
<highvoltage> hi dutchie
<dutchie> so everyone have an agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings?
<JasonCook599> I do
<semioticrobotic> right-o
<brandonj> got it
<dutchie> wonder where godbyk/jenkins are
<jenkins> here
<thishumphreybc> dutchie: link to the pad too?
<dutchie> i don't have a link
<dutchie> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:04.
<c7p> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/baZkHCQiMu
<dutchie> right, wait until everyone's here
<thishumphreybc> that was quick
<czajkowski> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/baZkHCQiMu
<highvoltage> heh @ 10:04
<semioticrobotic> wow, we're really getting efficient with this meeting thing
<dutchie> godbyk said he'd be along
<dutchie> oh well
<dutchie> try again
<dutchie> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 10:05. The chair is dutchie.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<brandonj> take 2
<dutchie> Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Meetings
<dutchie> etherpad: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/baZkHCQiMu
<dutchie> ok, let's begin
<dutchie> [TOPIC] Lucid-e2 or Maverick?
<MootBot> New Topic:  Lucid-e2 or Maverick?
<jenkins> mavrick has my vote
<dutchie> The motivation behind this point is that we've only got 2 months till the maverick release
<thishumphreybc> we can still release e2
<brandonj> We can always delay lucid-e2 until after Maverick
<Muscovy> I think we ought to really get going on Maverick.
<jenkins> lucid will be around for a while and can be done in the background
<dutchie> i aree with brandonj and jenkins
<thishumphreybc> has everyone seen my timeline graphic?
<c7p> jenkins: +1
<dutchie> i think we need to shift along with maverick
<dutchie> thishumphreybc: no?
<ChrisWoollard> me too.
<thishumphreybc> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1887929/dev-infographic.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1887929/dev-infographic.png
<thishumphreybc> We've already fixed most of the bugs in the Lucid e2 branch. It's just a matter of putting a new cover on and releasing it.
<brandonj> Is the translation stuff set to go though?
<ChrisWoollard> the cover in on
<semioticrobotic> seems like a very small window in which to release lucid-e2 ... can we hit that?
<dutchie> brandonj: the translations stuff only takes a few minutes to set up
<ChrisWoollard> i did that earlier
<dutchie> i haven't really been keeping up with e2 progress
<JasonCook599> i think that lucid e-2 should be released. requires little work and will fix many mistakes for the lts
<thishumphreybc> we fixed over 250 bugs thanks to the competition
<thishumphreybc> there is no downside to releasing e2 in a week
<dutchie> there are still 102 bugs targeted for e2
<jenkins> there are minor errors that need fixing in it still like there is a graphic worng and a random ) . I haev only looked at the firts bit
<ChrisWoollard> most of those are fixed
<thishumphreybc> what status are they?
<ChrisWoollard> there are only a handful of open ones
<thishumphreybc> I thought most of them were fix committed.
<dutchie> ah, most are committed
<dutchie> we could probably bring that release forward
<thishumphreybc> yeah
<ChrisWoollard> we could do with another proof read but that is probbly it
<thishumphreybc> we can release e2 whenever
<c7p> yap
<thishumphreybc> I just made up the August 16th date
<dutchie> so we will say release e2 asap
<brandonj> someone should be put in charge of that
<ChrisWoollard> we should aim for your suggested date.
<dutchie> well, godbyk's normally in charge of releases
<godbyk> Okay, I'm here now.
<godbyk> And I just heard my name.
<thishumphreybc> next Monday seems fine
 * godbyk hurries to read the backlogs. :)
<thishumphreybc> gives us time to sort out some last things, prep some posts and the website etc
<thishumphreybc> upload to Lulu
<dutchie> week sounds good to me
<JasonCook599> i think monday is a attainable goal
<dutchie> if it's ok with godbyk
<brandonj> agreed
<jenkins> I think it depends on how much time godbyk has
<c7p> i think someone should list all the open bugs and then put some members of the team to fix them
<dutchie> c7p: easy enough to get a list off LP
<c7p> nice
<dutchie> c7p: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+milestone/edition-2 is what i'm looking at now
<ChrisWoollard> I think some people should look at http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/builds/lucid-e2.pdf to seem if it looks ok.
<dutchie> there are 8 which require further access
<dutchie> action*
<dutchie> so once we've heard from godbyk we can move on
<godbyk> okay, I'm up to speed now.
<dutchie> godbyk: so does a monday release of e2 sound good to you?
<godbyk> I'm leaning toward an e2 release primarily because 10.04 is an LTS.
<godbyk> It'd be good to have a manual that's up to date and as bug-free as possible for the LTS.
<thishumphreybc> yes
<thishumphreybc> I want to get that behind us so we can focus on Maverick
<godbyk> sure, Monday would be fine.
<dutchie> [ACTION] lucid-e2 to be released on Monday August 16th
<MootBot> ACTION received:  lucid-e2 to be released on Monday August 16th
<godbyk> For the release of e2, it should be pretty easy.
<thishumphreybc> speaking of maverick, there isn't really that much to be focusing on (yet)
<godbyk> I just have to generate the PDFs, upload to our website and lulu.com, and we're done.
<thishumphreybc> which is a bit of a problem I think we'll always run into
<dutchie> thishumphreybc: hang on, we'll tidy up this topic then move on
<thishumphreybc> kk
<dutchie> i'm sure that thishumphreybc can get announcements out in a nice non-inflammatory way
<ChrisWoollard> lol
<thishumphreybc> I can try, not making any promises though :P
<dutchie> perhaps when you've woken up, you can write a post
<godbyk> I'd say the biggest challenge for e2 is getting the remaining bugs fixed.
<dutchie> yep, we don't need to devote any more meeting time though
<dutchie> so, moving on
<dutchie> i think we can skip discussion of docs/learning collaboration for now
<thishumphreybc> I'm going to write a post updating the community on our progress this week
<dutchie> [TOPIC] Documenting the release process
<MootBot> New Topic:  Documenting the release process
<dutchie> It's important that we have a checklist for releasing both the English and translated versions so we don't forget stuff
<thishumphreybc> yeah
<thishumphreybc> hmm
<c7p> we have already a translation todo list, it's a starting point
<godbyk> Here's our translation checklist: http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/translationtodo
<semioticrobotic> yes, a great idea
<thishumphreybc> I'd like to put this somewhere more formal
<JasonCook599> checklists are alwasy good
<dutchie> ideally, it can have proofreading from lots of different people
<dutchie> a wiki page would probably be the right sort of thing
<thishumphreybc> wiki page sounds good to me for now
 * godbyk is entertained by the notion that a wiki page is considered 'more formal'. 
<thishumphreybc> with the new ubuntu-manual.org site that daker is working on, we'll be able to have all this stuff nicely laid
<ChrisWoollard> it is easy to edit
<thishumphreybc> laid out, rather
<dutchie> thishumphreybc: and editable by team members?
<thishumphreybc> we can easily make it editable sure
<dutchie> because that's what the wiki has going for it
<ChrisWoollard> simple / quick / not over-engineered
<thishumphreybc> but if we want to finalize some sort of structure for newcomers
<thishumphreybc> isn't that what we want?
<flan> Low beraucratic overhead?
<thishumphreybc> so someone can get an idea of what they need to do easily
<thishumphreybc> flan: yeah, exactly
<dutchie> are you talking about contributions?
<flan> Contributions and updates, I guess.
<thishumphreybc> well who are we "documenting the release process" for?
<dutchie> ourselves
<JasonCook599> as well a new memebers
<thishumphreybc> right, but in theory once we find a procedure that works we can stick to that
<c7p> we should have in mind that this easy-editable material on wiki should be ready for translation at every time
<godbyk> Can you give me an idea of the things you'd like to see listed in the release process?
<JasonCook599> fixed bugs?
<dutchie> building RC versions, getting proofreaders (for different chapters?)
<thishumphreybc> c7p: yeah that's one of the things that wikis have going against them :(
<thishumphreybc> so wait
<ChrisWoollard> outstanding tasks
<thishumphreybc> these are instructions?
<dutchie> a checklist for when we release stuff
<thishumphreybc> I'm confused as to what we're talking about now
<thishumphreybc> okay
<brandonj> doesnt launchpad fulfill some of this functionality?
<thishumphreybc> can't we use blueprints?
<thishumphreybc> and then just update the status as we go
<thishumphreybc> you can assign things then too
<dutchie> i don't think it needs to be that formal as having blueprints everywhere
<thishumphreybc> it would be nice to have something cool and easy to understand on our website
<dutchie> i could flesh out an example wiki page this afternoon
<godbyk> okay
<thishumphreybc> sort of like what the /getinvolved page is going to become (if anyone has seen the designs)
<ChrisWoollard> Haven't seem them
<dutchie> i'll do the example of what I'm thinking and then we can continue discussion on the ML/IRC/whatever
<c7p> thishumphreybc: at this time the release process documentation is more necessary for the translated editors in my opinion
<dutchie> sounds good to everyone??
<dutchie> dunno why i put to ?s in there
<semioticrobotic> dutchie, sounds good
<ChrisWoollard> maybe you could creat wiki.ubuntu-manual.org for our stuff
<godbyk> works for me.
<dutchie> ChrisWoollard: no need for that when there's the main ubuntu wiki
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: we could do that easily, yeah.
<semioticrobotic> I thought we were moving away from that main ubuntu wiki?
<jenkins> well then the wiki could be in our own style and fit the website
<dutchie> [ACTION] dutchie to mock up sample release checklist wiki page
<MootBot> ACTION received:  dutchie to mock up sample release checklist wiki page
<dutchie> right
<ChrisWoollard> that would give ben something to design ;)
<thishumphreybc> main ubuntu wiki does suck though
<ChrisWoollard> agreed.
<ChrisWoollard> i hoped it would also get a new theme.
<semioticrobotic> yeah, I seem to recall thishumphreybc expressing an interest in moving away from the "main" wiki and under our own roof at ubuntu-manual.org
<dutchie> detailing the process for translations: we've already got the etherpad doc, so i think that's covered
<dutchie> i think daker wanted to talk about the website, but he's not around
<dutchie> sooooo
<JasonCook599> duthie: i think we wanted that done more formally (wiki)
<dutchie> easy enough to copy-paste into a translated release checklist
<thishumphreybc> new UMP site for anyone who hasn't seen it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/sets/72157624139515783/
<ChrisWoollard> The wiki would be good because then you to link to all these various sources of information.
<JasonCook599> yes, we have the content, just not the page
<brandonj> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/sets/721576241
<brandonj>                          39515783/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/sets/721576241
<brandonj> oops, sorry
<thishumphreybc> this was the getinvolved thing
<thishumphreybc> http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4698519305/in/set-72157624139515783/
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/humphreybc/4698519305/in/set-72157624139515783/
<c7p> the get involved section of the site will be merged with the wiki ?
<JasonCook599> that looks sharp
<thishumphreybc> presenting processes and information to people like that definitely trumps using the ubuntu wiki
<Muscovy> Those look like nice mockups.
<c7p> nice design thishumphreybc
<jenkins> we need a todo list of some form
<thishumphreybc> looks better than that now, too
<dutchie> [TOPIC] Website discussion
<MootBot> New Topic:  Website discussion
<dutchie> since we're there already
<thishumphreybc> for internal todo lists we can just use etherpad I think
<dutchie> so we've got lots of mockups
<dutchie> which i presume daker is implementing now?
<thishumphreybc> daker and I have talked about the site lots
<thishumphreybc> yeah, he's starting work (or started) already
<thishumphreybc> also working on http://quickshot.org
 * flan plays the still-doesn't-have-Internet-access-at-home card.
<dutchie> so that's looking quite cool
<jenkins> I think we need more website devs to help daker
<jenkins> he does work so hard
<dutchie> we probably do
<semioticrobotic> agreed.  that guy must be seriously snowed under
<thishumphreybc> here's the site with the new ubuntu pictograms
<thishumphreybc> http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ubuntu/ump-index.png
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://humphreybc.homeip.net/files/ubuntu/ump-index.png
<thishumphreybc> we definitely need more web developers
 * thishumphreybc worked with Dom Edmunds from the canonical design team on the pictograms
<semioticrobotic> thishumphreybc, I was just admiring those
<dutchie> are there plans for website content beyond what's on there now?
<c7p> btw we should remove the "translated in more than 50 kanguages" feature on site :P
<thishumphreybc> c7p: haha, yes
<thishumphreybc> it's a bit of a lie :P
<ChrisWoollard> maybe one day
<c7p> a bit :p
<dutchie> so the next sub-topic is the bug form
<semioticrobotic> :)
<dutchie> which is something to do with me
<thishumphreybc> yay bug form
<dutchie> up and running in some form now actuall
<dutchie> http://bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/
<semioticrobotic> something to replace the Google Docs solution we had in lucid-e1?
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.ubuntu-manual.org/
<thishumphreybc> semioticrobotic: yep
<semioticrobotic> hooray!!
<dutchie> this even magically pushes it to LP
<jenkins> can we crash dutchies vps by all clicking it
<ChrisWoollard> it seems slow
<thishumphreybc> it's super slow :P
<dutchie> yes, it could probably do with a speed improvement
<thishumphreybc> so we just need daker to apply some CSS right?
<semioticrobotic> yeah, slow, but otherwise an excellent tool
<semioticrobotic> and it pushes to LP?  amazing
 * thishumphreybc seriously needs to find more web developers
<dutchie> http://docs.google.com/a/ubuntu-manual.org/Doc?docid=0ARIi6BtbYjOIZGhiNndmbjlfMDR6aDN4YnBy&hl=en_GB
<MootBot> LINK received:  http://docs.google.com/a/ubuntu-manual.org/Doc?docid=0ARIi6BtbYjOIZGhiNndmbjlfMDR6aDN4YnBy&hl=en_GB
<dutchie> suggestions in there please
<Muscovy> I guess that can't integrate with Launchpad, can it?
<dutchie> it is integrated with launchpad
<thishumphreybc> everyone, ask around if you have any web developers!
<dutchie> i think that's the main reason it's so slow
<dutchie> because launchpadlib is SLOOOOOOOOOW
<thishumphreybc> Muscovy: dutchie is clever. He created a new user who reports bugs from the form.
<Muscovy> That's cool. :D
<semioticrobotic> yeah, really cool guys
<thishumphreybc> I think we can probably incorporate that nicely into the new website
<thishumphreybc> but yeah, daker has so much on his plate
<thishumphreybc> he's doing the job of at least 3 people in half a reasonable amount of time
<JasonCook599> thishumphreybs: I am a *very* amature web developer. I may be able to help (or more likely, hinder) daker
<thishumphreybc> it's quite hard working with daker because he speaks little english
<thishumphreybc> but hey, that's half the fun of open source :P
<semioticrobotic> :)
<JasonCook599> I speak english and a *little* french
<dutchie> and the final subtopic is "Forum or not"
<brandonj> what would be the goal of a forum?
<c7p> i've just reported a test bug about a Spelling, grammar or punctuation error of a translated edition, it worked but it worth daying that i can't see anywhere on the title which language the bug refers to
<semioticrobotic> a forum for the new website?
<c7p> FORUM !
<dutchie> if that's "should we install forum software on ubuntu-manual.org", the answer is "almost certainly not"
<jenkins> people don't use the mailing list that  people barely use
<dutchie> i believe it's possible to get a subforum on ubuntuforums.org (the main ones)
<thishumphreybc> no we do not need a forum
 * semioticrobotic is not a fan of forums
<ChrisWoollard> i vote no
<jenkins> a forum would be fun but not needed
<brandonj> don't need a forum
<dutchie> that seems fairly unanimous
<dutchie> no forums
<thishumphreybc> so
<dutchie> or even fora
<semioticrobotic> keep in mind that once we have a forum, we also need someone to TEND that forum
<thishumphreybc> is everyone quite happy now with what's happening?
<godbyk> what would be the purpose of a forum?
 * flan speaks broken conversational French.
<flan> (Late)
<thishumphreybc> godbyk: I have no idea
<dutchie> [TOPIC] Regularly scheduled meetings
<MootBot> New Topic:  Regularly scheduled meetings
<c7p> it is very helpful for the translation process, people don't submit to MLs anymore
<ChrisWoollard> What was the point of a forum?
<Muscovy> What would we do with a forum? We've got the official forums for help and LP for bugs already.
<dutchie> i think meetings are pretty important
<jenkins> yep agreed
<dutchie> yeah, we don't need a forum, let's discuss meetings now
<godbyk> okay.
<thishumphreybc> sure
<ChrisWoollard> ok
 * semioticrobotic agrees heartily with dutchie
<thishumphreybc> well
<thishumphreybc> this time sucks.
<godbyk> I'm for having regular meetings.
<brandonj> scheduled meetings would be wonderful
<dutchie> without meetings, the whole team sort of slows down and gets bored
 * ChrisWoollard sweeps forums under the carpet
<godbyk> As long as they're not so frequent that we never have anything to say/discuss.
<brandonj> perhaps we can rotate times?
<thishumphreybc> it would have to be at 2000 - 2200 UTC.
<JasonCook599> this would be wonderful
<thishumphreybc> or
<thishumphreybc> rotate times
<JasonCook599> godbyk:bi-weekly?
<thishumphreybc> yeah
<thishumphreybc> every fortnight
<thishumphreybc> twice a month
<thishumphreybc> once every 14 days
<godbyk> JasonCook599: I was thinking that every other week sounds about right.
<thishumphreybc> etc etc.
<dutchie> every other week then
<Muscovy> I like the sound of rotating the times.
<semioticrobotic> sounds good to me
<godbyk> thishumphreybc: Every 336 hours?
<c7p> lol
<thishumphreybc> every 20,160 minutes
<ChrisWoollard> okano
<ChrisWoollard> no
<brandonj> enough of this madness
<ChrisWoollard> don't calculat miliseconds
<thishumphreybc> every 1,290,600 seconds?
 * semioticrobotic 's head is going to explode
<vdquynh> Hi everybody. Sorry I'm late
<c7p> hi vdquynh
<brandonj> hi vdquynh
<dutchie> i've got lots of holidays coming up soon, so i can't really commit to much
<thishumphreybc> ChrisWoollard: every 120Â 960Â 000 milliseconds?
<ChrisWoollard> so, moving on
<c7p> enough of the sec stuff, move on
<thishumphreybc> I'm going to be super busy from now till October, i'm afraid
<dutchie> [ACTION] Meetings to be scheduled every 2 weeks
 * ChrisWoollard slaps forehead
<MootBot> ACTION received:  Meetings to be scheduled every 2 weeks
<thishumphreybc> but then I have three months of summer holidays where I can work full time on Ubuntu.
<dutchie> that's pretty much all of the agenda gone through then
<dutchie> so
<thishumphreybc> and my plan is to get USLC started over summer
<semioticrobotic> nice work, dutchie
<dutchie> [TOPIC] AOB
<MootBot> New Topic:  AOB
<thishumphreybc> AOB?
<dutchie> (any other business)
<thishumphreybc> yeah
<thishumphreybc> so
<thishumphreybc> as I was saying
<thishumphreybc> I'm going to be really, really busy till October
<brandonj> are we actually going to schedule the meeting?
<dutchie> brandonj: after AOB
<brandonj> right
<c7p> is there any list of UM's members and their roles ?
<thishumphreybc> is everyone happy with the timeline for maverick?
<JasonCook599> what day of the week? mondays?
<thishumphreybc> c7p: probably the credits in the manual
<thishumphreybc> or ubuntu-manual.org/credits?
<godbyk> c7p: I don't know that there's an up-to-date list.
<brandonj> maverick timeline seems fine
<semioticrobotic> Similarly, I begin my doctoral work in two weeks.  I might initially struggle to help with the project, but I'd like to do whatever I can in the editing department
<thishumphreybc> is it /credits or contributions... not sure
<godbyk> JasonCook599: I think weekends work best.
<dutchie> can we get the maverick time line published somewhere obvious?
<thishumphreybc> weekends suit me
<brandonj> on the etherpad there was talk of people being assigned specific jobs.  I think we need more of that.
<thishumphreybc> dutchie: It will be in my blog post
<ChrisWoollard> put it on the wiki
<dutchie> thishumphreybc: thought so
<thishumphreybc> I'll do a summary of everything and stick it on planet ubuntu
<thishumphreybc> and planet UMP
<dutchie> great
<thishumphreybc> and email it to the list
<dutchie> if that's all the AOB, then...
<thishumphreybc> and sing it on the mountaintops
<c7p> string freezing date for 10.10 ?
<brandonj> on the etherpad there was talk of people being assigned specific jobs.  I think we need more of that.
<JasonCook599> godbyk: I don't know how many weekends I can attend. I am very busy on weekends. perphaps a poll on the mailing list
<thishumphreybc> c7p: I think Sep 10th?
<thishumphreybc> brandonj: we sort of had a structure of teams
<brandonj> "sort of"
<thishumphreybc> editing team, writing team, design team, translators, web development, quickshot
<thishumphreybc> each team had a head too
<thishumphreybc> we even have a team lead mailing list
<c7p> one month for translation ... i hope will make it till 10th of October
<godbyk> that may have to be revisited depending on who will be around for this release.
<thishumphreybc> I think that worked okay provided everyone actually had time to work
<dutchie> yep
<thishumphreybc> but unfortunately this lull was created because we all got busy
<dutchie> [TOPIC] Next meeting date/time
<MootBot> New Topic:  Next meeting date/time
<godbyk> c7p: yeah, I think (hope) we'll be able to reuse a lot of the existing translations.
<thishumphreybc> yeah
<thishumphreybc> there shouldn't be that many textual changes for maverick
<thishumphreybc> and we're removing a lot of stuff anyway
<dutchie> if we aim for 2 weeks, that's around the 22nd
<c7p> godbyk: so do I, i hope lp won't mess things up again !
<ChrisWoollard> Was lucid e2 going to be copied to maverick?
<thishumphreybc> ChrisWoollard: yeah
<dutchie> ChrisWoollard: yes
<dutchie> how about 22nd at 2000 UTC?
<c7p> sounds good to me
<thishumphreybc> dutchie: what day is that?
<dutchie> sunday
<ChrisWoollard> when?
<godbyk> dutchie: works for me. saturday at that time is fine, too.
<dutchie> 2 weeks yesterday
<dutchie> i won't be around on the saturday
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: 2000 UTC
<thishumphreybc> which is... what day for me. Monday for me at 10am right?
<godbyk> dutchie: fair enough
<dutchie> thishumphreybc: your time zone, you sort it out :P
<ChrisWoollard> that is good
<thishumphreybc> wait
<thishumphreybc> 8am
<godbyk> thishumphreybc: I've decided that you're just on the wrong side of the planet. :-)
<thishumphreybc> 8am is gay
<thishumphreybc> :P
<dutchie> awwwww diddums
<thishumphreybc> godbyk: i'm on the right side :P
<dutchie> ok, 22nd at 2000UTC
<dutchie> and we're done
<ChrisWoollard> but i wondered when the e2 to maverick would be copied
<thishumphreybc> righto
<c7p> wait
<dutchie> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 10:53.
<thishumphreybc> ChrisWoollard: ASAP
<dutchie> ooh, sorry c7p
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: after we release it, I'll copy the files over.
<c7p> what about the other translated editions
<c7p> dutchie: np
<thishumphreybc> i haven't checked the branches recently.. how much cruft is still in them?
<ChrisWoollard> ok thanks
<dutchie> thishumphreybc: if i write up the minutes, will you email the list/blog?
<thishumphreybc> I remember we ended up having huge branches. Can we remove all the unrelated stuff?
<semioticrobotic> anyone heard from Jamin Day lately?
<dutchie> thishumphreybc: no
<thishumphreybc> dutchie: sure
<thishumphreybc> dutchie: no?
<dutchie> no, it's a DVCS, the big files are in there forever :(
<thishumphreybc> cock
<thishumphreybc> we should have more smaller branches rather than less large branches. minimizes stuff like merges when it gets busy
<dutchie> yep
<godbyk> dutchie: there's no way to start a clean/fresh 'branch'?
<c7p> we need a Serbian,a Galician,a Asturian, a Vietnamese and a Tamil editor for the translated editions, mail to LoCo teams ?
<thishumphreybc> maybe we should start a fresh branch for maverick and just copy over the relevant things for the first commit.
<thishumphreybc> what is currently in the branch that shouldn't be there?
<thishumphreybc> old website files, quickshot stuff, old readmes, screenshots etc?
<godbyk> c7p: I think we have a few of those: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/TranslationEditors
<godbyk> thishumphreybc: that's what I did for lucid-e2 and maverick.
<thishumphreybc> godbyk: great
<thishumphreybc> so the branch isn't like 2GBs anymore
<thishumphreybc> i swear it took a day to download for me from fresh because my ISP throttles bzr or something.
<c7p> godbyk: great so mail them and if they need some help with the latex syntax errors etc, I'm available
<godbyk> c7p: I'll send an email today about it.
<thishumphreybc> oh and everyone, as for the docs and learning team, let's forget about that until after maverick
<c7p> godbyk: nice
<semioticrobotic> okay, thishumphreybc
<brandonj> that sounds reasonable
 * thishumphreybc thinks that thishumphreybc might not have been the best choice for a nick. It's meant to be a reference to OOP in python...
<JasonCook599> thishumphreybc: will you be sendng them an emai?
<semioticrobotic> yeah, once the pressing release is out the door, we can focus on collaborations :)
<JasonCook599> email
<thishumphreybc> JasonCook599: when I have a break over (my) summer starting in november, I can work full time with them on stuff.
<c7p> any idea how will we attract more developers ? (maybe a post to OMG!Ubuntu would help)
<thishumphreybc> hmm
<brandonj> c7p: we can just kidnap them from other projects
<thishumphreybc> I think we really need more web developers
<c7p> haha
<godbyk> I think we need to lay out clear goals/plans/etc. before recruiting developers.
<c7p> yeah
<thishumphreybc> poor daker :(
<thishumphreybc> yeah
<thishumphreybc> well
<semioticrobotic> gotta run, friends.  thanks for a good meeting
<godbyk> (Just so we have things lined up and ready for them to work on.)
<thishumphreybc> the new site might entice people :P
<godbyk> See ya, semioticrobotic.
<JasonCook599> thishumphreybc: just to let them know we will postphone colaboration
<thishumphreybc> "look at this sexy project!"
<c7p> godbyk: I agree
<c7p> cu semioticrobotic
<thishumphreybc> JasonCook599: At the pace they work, they won't notice that nothing has happened till November anyway.
<godbyk> thishumphreybc, JasonCook599: I don't see why the collaboration discussions can't continue. It's not as if they're terribly time-consuming at the moment, after all.
<JasonCook599> thishumphreybc: cool
<brandonj> I agree with godbyk on this
<thishumphreybc> godbyk: the discussions can continue but I'd rather we focus work starting later
<thishumphreybc> ideally I'd like to have all the plans and specs laid out BEFORE maverick is released
<godbyk> thishumphreybc: At the rate the discussions are going, I don't think anyone's rushing in to start coding anything at the moment. ;-)
<thishumphreybc> and then we just kick up a huge stink, get all these people working on it
<thishumphreybc> yeah
<thishumphreybc> so
<thishumphreybc> if you guys could keep that up
 * thishumphreybc isn't in the collaboration discussion because he just gets angry and isn't technical enough to make decisions on languages etc
<c7p> i think the learning centrer is huge milestone for our project, keep on ;)
<godbyk> In other words, I think that no change is necessary, ergo, no need to notify anyone of anything.
<thishumphreybc> sure
<JasonCook599> that sounds right
<thishumphreybc> we need to advertise USLC as the next best thing since sliced bread
<thishumphreybc> so we can get developers
<thishumphreybc> but we can advertise it until we know what we want
<thishumphreybc> cant*
<c7p> good idea
<slidinghorn> I apologize for my tardiness, was there anything big I missed?
<thishumphreybc> so we figure out what we want including details about language it's written in, specifications for use, content, workflow, etc etc, and then when we have all the specs laid out in some fancy PDF file we can advertise it.
<thishumphreybc> slidinghorn: not really. I'll do a summary post in the next couple of days.
<c7p> slidinghorn: check the logs if you want http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/08/09/%23ubuntu-manual.html#t16:06
<thishumphreybc> I'm going to sleep now, well, i'm going to try to.
<godbyk> 'kay. g'night, thishumphreybc.
<c7p> thishumphreybc: bye
<c7p> g2g too cu later
<vdquynh> OK. I'll report towards the Vietnamese community. Bye evrybody
<JasonCook599> bye everyone. I'm going to go have lunch. it noon here and I'm very hungary
<ChrisWoollard> so you later everybody
<brandonj> I'm with JasonCook599.  Lunch time!
<godbyk> lunch for me, too.  bbiab.
<jenkins> sorry we had to turn the electrics off so the internet went
<jenkins> sorry flan
<flan> No need to appologize.
<flan> I have work to do anyway. =P
<slidinghorn> ok just read over the meeting log -- basically what I gained from it was that the main point to which I'd be able to contribute is helping out with the web development for daker
<jenkins> would you like to help slidinghorn ?
<slidinghorn> any way I can
<jenkins> slidinghorn: let me find his e-mail for you
<slidinghorn> jenkins, cool
<flan> Or we could teach him Python~
<flan> <.<
<flan> >.>
<jenkins> we have to teach me first :P
<flan> Doable.
<jenkins> o flan we need to rewrite the debian rules file the one quickly gives is not any good
<jenkins> something I am working on as well
<jenkins> I will be back later as I need to do some stuff around the house
<jenkins> bye all
<jenkins> hey flan can you do your explanation another night please as we have a water leak to find in the house :(
 * jenkins goes to try an work out whats causing it. I may be back at about 11 pm utc
<daker> hi
<daker> sorry i were unable to attend the meeting :s
<thorwil> not even the language of implementation for the ULC has been decided on? i thought it could only by python. or scala. or erlang :)
<ChrisWoollard> ping godbyk
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: (belated) pong
<jenkins> is there anyone out there who knows python and would like to help with quickshot? We are always looking for new help
<godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard.
<ChrisWoollard> Earlier I modifed the title pages with the e2 designs. Can you check that I didn't miss any?
<ChrisWoollard> and or that i did it right
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: did you translated second edition for all the languages?
<ChrisWoollard> no, just english. I thought that was up to the translation teams
<ChrisWoollard> so maybe i didn't finish it right
<askhl_> jenkins, I know python.  I don't have all the time in the world though
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: That'll work for the English stuff.  The the translations, you'd need to modify lines 434 and 435 of the ubuntu-manual.cls file.  (Or just ensure that the filenames for the cover pages stay the same as they are.  There's really no need to add 'e2' to the end of them since they're in the e2 repository.)
<jenkins> askhl_: none of us do at the moment :( . If you have time I can explain about quickshot and the code as it is at the moment
<ChrisWoollard> i just didn't want to over right the old ones. But I can sort that if you want
<askhl_> jenkins, can I take a quick look first?  As in 'bzr branch...'
<ChrisWoollard> i guess they don't matter though. they are in e1
<jenkins> askhl_: server or gui ?
<askhl_> oh my, it involves all sorts of networking?
<askhl_> Well, I don't mind helping, but depending on how much code there is, it might be unfeasible in the near future
<jenkins> gui lp:quickshot sever lp:quickshot/server . the server is to store and approve images and manage projects
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: yeah, feel free to overwrite the old ones.  no sense cluttering up the repository with copies of old stuff.
<jenkins> askhl_: both are being written from scratch this release last release was a rush
<askhl_> I'm taking a look
<jenkins> cool
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: thanks
<askhl_> (Isn't the directory name supposed to be etc/appoRt rather than etc/appot?)
<jenkins> askhl_: you are right that was a typo I made yesterday
<jenkins> good spot
<jenkins> the branch does not have an ideal layout yet those folders are there so i remember where in the file system the apport files go. I need to write the debian rules file so that they get installed correctly. the current one by quickly is rubbish
<askhl_> I don't know much about some of these libraries (networking stuff, pylons, ...).  It'll take a while before I can really look into it though (next two weeks will be quite busy)
<jenkins> cool no rush askhl_ let us know when you have time. flan_ does the server stuff
<askhl_> So what sort of things need to be done?
<jenkins> I can only cover the gui but, theres the debian rules file, a setup.py file, interaction with the server, the proper detection of peoples graphics settings and restting them if the change does not work.
<jenkins> theres packaging for other distors
<jenkins> * distros
<jenkins> but thats more of a long term goal
<jenkins> designing a logo
<askhl_> Doesn't it use distutils?  Is it difficult to make an rpm for example?
<jenkins> I don't *think* it uses distutils I haev not written all of the gui. I have a link some where for rpms but have not got around to making one
<askhl_> In any case, I'll stay around this channel.  These next two weeks I'll be preoccupied (or at least I'm supposed to be), but we can always talk later
<askhl_> Well, the client-side one has a setup.py which uses the 'distutils extra'.  It has a command that generates an rpm.  Probably some extra tinkering is required to deal with dependencies (I know almost nothing about rpms).
<jenkins> that sounds great askhl_
<jenkins> I will only be on in utc evenings very soon as I start work
<jenkins> I like this shape http://www.thinkgeek.com/homeoffice/kitchen/c4b5/ as part of the quickshot logo but it may be too much lie the fspot one
<jenkins> click on the second image
<jenkins> http://tinyurl.com/qslogo is the image
 * jenkins likes thorwils stack off screenshots
<jenkins> anyone got any ideas for a quickshot logo? perhaps ben could do a less controversial blog with a competion
<jenkins> ok this is a very rough idea for a logo I am no artist http://imagebin.org/108868. any thoughts any one?
<jenkins> flan_: ^
<jenkins> the black will be transparent
<jenkins> hey other flan
<jenkins> are flan will not be at work any more . doh!
<nisshh> jenkins: Rick appears to be back now, do you want to talk to him now?
<jenkins> nisshh: if he is around i can
<nisshh> jenkins: ok, hes in #quickly atm
<jenkins> so am i lets see if hes is able to talk
<nisshh> ok
<askhl_> Now past 50% on Danish translation.  Booyeah..!
<jenkins> yey
#ubuntu-manual 2010-08-10
 * jenkins 's inspiration for logos has gone :(
<ChrisWoollard_> If anybody is available to have a look at bugs there are a few that need work.
<ChrisWoollard_> Thanks
<ChrisWoollard_> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bugs?search=Search&field.status=New
<ChrisWoollard_> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bugs?search=Search&field.status=In+Progress
<ChrisWoollard_> Thanks
<jenkins> night all
<thorwil> good morning!
 * humphreybc is writing up the UMP post now
<jenkins> could you slip in about people coming up with quickshot logo ideas?
<humphreybc> sure thing
<jenkins> thanks c:)
<jenkins> * :)
<jenkins> never seen that one before
<vish> humphreybc: nice follow up! not easy writing those :)
<humphreybc> heh
<jenkins> we have two ideas now http://imagebin.org/108932 thanks to c7p's idea and http://imagebin.org/108933 my idea. Any thoughts anyone?
<jenkins> obviously they are very rough mock ups I am not a desginer
<humphreybc> http://humphreybc.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/revving-up-the-ubuntu-manual-project-for-maverick/
<humphreybc> should hit the planet within the hour
<thorwil> jenkins: well, there's still http://www.foopics.com/showfull/29e05de6df064b8ab12593f31414ba6d
<jenkins> thanks thorwil I did not know where that had gone. I like the stack of screenshots
<thorwil> heh, so i'm busy being myself
<humphreybc> man i hate blogger
<humphreybc> no offence, but all of those logo ideas are terrible
<humphreybc> http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<ChrisWoollard> Nice mug shot
<humphreybc> ta
<ChrisWoollard> That is a nice post. Well done.
<jenkins> humphreybc: none taken, they are the ones we have so far :)
<jenkins> they are all mock ups rather than actual logos
<bilalakhtar> humphreybc: hey
<bilalakhtar> humphreybc: on your OMG! post, you mentioned tumbleweed
<humphreybc> haha
<humphreybc> do you have some to spread around?
<bilalakhtar> ok
<bilalakhtar> you meant that?
<bilalakhtar> I thought
<bilalakhtar> tumbleweed -> stefano rivera
<bilalakhtar> just try
<bilalakhtar>  /whois tumbleweed
<humphreybc> oh
<humphreybc> no tumbleweed is that thing that bale of hay that blows around on western movies and cartoons
<bilalakhtar> lol
<popey> bilalakhtar: http://tumbleweed.popey.com/
<popey> for when someone cracks a joke that absolutely nobody finds funny
<humphreybc> popey: how many of these do you have?
<popey> often accompanied by a bell ringing in the distance
<popey> too many :)
<bilalakhtar> popey: Thanks for creating the subdomain
<popey> its existed for a while
<popey> 4 years in fact
<b1ackcr0w> hi - im having trouble getting a touchscreen to work
<b1ackcr0w> i've had it working before, but it's gone fail again :(
<b1ackcr0w> im using lucid (mint9 - but the gubbins is the same under the hood)
<b1ackcr0w> tried so far...
<b1ackcr0w> install evtouch driver - installed, no worky
<trijntje> b1ackcr0w, those questions should be asked in #ubuntu
<b1ackcr0w> k
<b1ackcr0w> sugar - thought i was in ubuntu-uk
<trijntje> b1ackcr0w, no problem ;)
<ChrisWoollard_> Does anybody know how images are positioned in latex?
<ChrisWoollard_> I have noticed that the position of images in the tex files does not reflect exactly where they are actually displayed
<daker> ChrisWoollard_, u should ask godbyk
<ChrisWoollard_> I will, but i don't think he is around
<ChrisWoollard_> thanks
<daker> ChrisWoollard_, i am not able to answer you question :s
<daker> nop
<ChrisWoollard_> np
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: The short answer is that LaTeX will put the images wherever it thinks they fit best given certain constraints.
<ChrisWoollard> Ok. Hmmm. That could make things interesting.
<ChrisWoollard> How would it know that?
<ChrisWoollard> Sounds like after i have put the kids to bed i should commit my changes and show you what it has done.
<godbyk> It has its ways.  And they're not always sensible. :-)
<jenkins> hey Muscovy you wanted to help with more editing etc
<Muscovy> SOrry, gotta run!
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: can you have a look at page 53 (browsing the web). It appears that some text looks weird and also the homepage screenshot is in the wrong place. I cannot work out how to fix it.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Sure, I'll take a look.
<ChrisWoollard> You are wonderful..... again (or still)
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: I'm guessint a margin note has been placed on top of the caption.
<ChrisWoollard> how can you do that?
<ChrisWoollard> I thought it placed things sequentially
<godbyk> well the margin note and caption don't know about each other.  and so latex is happy to place the text there.
<c7p> night all
<ChrisWoollard> can you fix it, because I don't know how. I am interested in learning how you do it though.
<ChrisWoollard> night c7p
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Yeah, I'm looking into it here.
<ChrisWoollard> I like this Latex stuff, but it does seem to be complicated at times.
<godbyk> Yeah, it can be complicated occasionally.
<ChrisWoollard> is it in ubuntu-manual.cls where you define custom latex tags?
<godbyk> Yeah.
<ChrisWoollard> was \screenshot a regular latex option or is it something you defined.
<godbyk> It's something that I defined.
<godbyk> It's a shortcut for (effectively): \begin{figure} \includegraphics[scale=blah]{filename.png}\caption{Caption goes here...}\label{ss:labelname} \end{figure}
<godbyk> It's actually a bit more complicated than that (since we're using a modified figure environment), but that's the gist of it.
<ChrisWoollard> what does the ss: bit mean? or what does it relate to?
<godbyk> It's just a prefix for the label name.
<godbyk> I typically use sec: for sections, ch: for chapters, fig: for figures, tab: for tables, etc.
<godbyk> So ss: for screenshots.
<godbyk> Just to avoid name clashes.
<ChrisWoollard> ok, that makes sense
<Omega> Good day.
<ChrisWoollard> evening
<godbyk> Hello, Omega.
<Omega> Who
<Omega> Who's the head honcho around these parts, if I may ask?
<ChrisWoollard> humphreybc is in charge
<godbyk> Omega: Depends on what you're looking for. :)
<Omega> Well, I have a few ideas, of how to make Ubuntu Manual easier to find.
<godbyk> Cool.  Fire away!
<jenkins> hello Omega
<Omega> If Ubuntu adds a sort of 'Welcome to Ubuntu' dialog that pops up after a fresh install, and it has Ubuntu Manual under a 'Usage Guide' or similar title, where the user may easily access it.
<Omega> Linux Mint has that sort of thing.
<godbyk> Do you know if Ubuntu is planning to add such a dialog?
<Omega> Also, I'll probably be helping with Ubuntu Manual (I am already learning LaTeX (For my maths thesis)).
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Pull the latest code and see if that looks better.
<Omega> I do not sir.
<jenkins> Omega: I like the idea the problem lies with the project not being official
<ChrisWoollard> will do
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Could you also look at around-desktop/around-desktop.tex? There's some merge markers in there (>>>> and the like)
<jenkins> Omega:  we look forward to the help
<jenkins> there is the nice factoid
<jenkins> !manual | Omega
<ChrisWoollard> what do the merge marks
<jenkins> well there would be if manualbot had not died :(
<ChrisWoollard> do?
<Omega> I'm not sure how your current LaTeX setup is, but, I use Gummi, it's the closest thing to a WYSIWYG LaTeX editor out there (which I heard you guys were interested in)
<Omega> .
<ChrisWoollard> what do you want me to ddo this them?
<Omega> Oh, and I also program in Python.
<ChrisWoollard> make
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: It's when someone pulled or committed code and bzr merged the changes because it couldn't resolve all of them.  The expectation is that whoever merged the code should've sorted it out.
<ChrisWoollard> oops, wrong window
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: So the markers should which bits of code are from the original file, which are from the new file, etc.
<jenkins> Omega:  we have looked at gummi I don't know if it handles the custom commands we use
<jenkins> Omega: python that could be useful
<Omega> What sort of custom commands are in use by the project?
<ChrisWoollard> So you want me to read it and fix it where appropriate
<Omega> I'm also fluent in Dutch (if you guys are translating to Dutch).
<ChrisWoollard> I can do that
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Basically, you'll have to look at both versions of the text, figure out which one to keep.
<ChrisWoollard> np
<jenkins> Omega:  \screenshot is the only one I can think off of the top of my head, we do need help with dutch iirc
<Omega> jenkins: What does said command do?
<godbyk> Omega: It's basically a shortcut for inserting a figure.
<ChrisWoollard> Jij spreakt Nederlands.
<Omega> Less broken than that though :P.
<ChrisWoollard> Waar komt jij?
<godbyk> Omega: There are a number of other custom commands we use, too.  Usually for semantic markup of GUI elements and the like.
<jenkins> o yea all those as well
 * jenkins remembers now
<godbyk> jenkins: And whatever random stuff I tossed in and have forgotten about. ;-)
<jenkins> lol
<jenkins> \menu{Applications \then sound and video \then banshee}
<jenkins> that creates  Applications > sound and video > banshee
<Omega> godbyk: You can use custom commands in Gummi, there's even a dialog to add images.
<Omega> Yeah, I think it'll work in Gummi.
<ChrisWoollard> That reminds me
<jenkins> that also reminded me of somethinf
<ChrisWoollard> I have spotted a couple of times where you have \application{Application} \then{Something}
<ChrisWoollard> that Application is bold bu Something isn't
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: That's odd.  If Application is a menu item, then it should be \menu{Application\then Something}
<godbyk> Example: Click \menu{XChat\then Quit} to exit \application{XChat}.
<ChrisWoollard> That sounds like I found a bug
<jenkins> flan_: as a VERY long term quickshot goal what about doing a plugin type feature so that projects can add custom functions to suit their needs. As always I have no clue how to do it :P
<ChrisWoollard> I think it was also in browsing the web
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: probably someone who made some edits and was not familiar with it
 * jenkins installs gummi
<Omega> It's extremely useful.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Looks like it: To start Firefox, click \menu{Applications}\then{Internet}\then{Firefox Web Browser}.
<Omega> jenkins: ppa:gummi/gummi
<Omega> If you want to keep up to date.
<jenkins> thanks
<jenkins> Omega: how do i get gummi to recognise custom commands ?
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: I think the firefox screenshot is now in the network manager section
<godbyk> well, it's just at the top of the "Browsing the web" page.
<godbyk> Everywhere else I tried putting it collided with margin notes.
<godbyk> (people kinda went nuts with the margin notes.)
<ChrisWoollard> delete some then
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: we can take another look at that screenshot again when the editing is finished and the text has settled down some.
<Omega> jenkins: In what way?
<godbyk> (if more text is added/removed, then the image may float someplace else).
<jenkins> Omega: so that it will build it in the preview pane
<ChrisWoollard> good point
<Omega> \newcommand{\link}[2] % \link{url here}{text here}
<Omega> {\href{#1}{\textcolor{blue}{\underline{#2}}}\footnote{\nolinkurl{#1}}} % keep on one line to prevent weird spacing
<Omega> example
<jenkins> ok I see how that works but our stuff is in about 20-30 different files so that would need to be specified at the start of each one for gummi to work. At least thats how I understand it
<Omega> I have to leave now guys.
<Omega> Cya.
<godbyk> jenkins: I assume you'd have to open main.tex and compile that.
<jenkins> cya Omega
<jenkins> godbyk:  i will try
<jenkins> if i open main.tex I get two pages an this error http://paste.ubuntu.com/476161/ . building it with make is fine
<godbyk> it's apparently not finding the files it needs to include.
<godbyk> bsaically it needs to think of the directory containing main.tex as the current working directory.
<jenkins> meh I am not bothered just thought i would check it out again
<godbyk> brb
#ubuntu-manual 2010-08-11
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: ping
<ChrisWoollard> hello
<jenkins> bug https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/616118
<ChrisWoollard> ye
<ChrisWoollard> s
<jenkins> the screenshot exists as it is later in the manual at some point some one thought ot put it in two places
<jenkins> its towards the middle irrc
<ChrisWoollard> So it is a duplicate
<ChrisWoollard> that should be removed
<jenkins> thats what i thought, I am pretty sure the first one is not in lucid-e1. i don't know why this one was added
<jenkins> might have come from a bug report or a typo?
<jenkins> ment to be something enlse
<jenkins> *else
<ChrisWoollard> ok thanks
<jenkins> np
<ChrisWoollard> I was just trying to log a whole bunch of bugs before i forgot about them as it is late, and need to sleep..
<ChrisWoollard> so that is exactly what i am going to do.
<jenkins> don't blame you :)
<ChrisWoollard> I think I am going to send a mail to the list tomorrow to try to get some more proof readers.  There still seems to be a whole bunch of issues.
<godbyk> Good idea.
<godbyk> What was the release date for e2 again?
<ChrisWoollard> 16th
<godbyk> okay
<ChrisWoollard> that is monday
<ChrisWoollard> anyway. See you all tomorrow.
<godbyk> see ya
<jenkins> cya ChrisWoollard
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: compare the text on page 28 and 29
<ChrisWoollard> 29 looks thicker
<ChrisWoollard> also look at it at about 125%. It is easier to see then.
<ChrisWoollard> anyway. I really have to sleep.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: looks okay in my copy. On the page where the text looks darker, can you tell the difference between the menu names and the dark text?  The menu names are in bold.
<jenkins> night all
<Omega> I'm back, guys.
<ChrisWoollard> Can you check to see if by added that tag the text gets emphasis?
<thorwil> good morning!
<KE1HA> Anyone from the team around that can assist with a Texlive Install question ?
<nisshh> KE1HA: whats up?
<KE1HA> hi nisshh  sri was away from the box. I had a problem during, or should say after install.
<KE1HA> I went through the installer config script,
<KE1HA> but on the Language section I di not select any languages, and the script prompted me to say, if your only writing English this is ok, so I continued on.
<KE1HA> DL was a full install, everythign basically.
<KE1HA> ran the post-install script, had a few fonts missing, and I assume the script downloaded them, as it stopped fer a bit after each seciton.
<KE1HA> it finally passed then I tried to compile with: make ubuntu-manual  and that's where Im stuck.
<KE1HA> I teid to use make ubuntu-manual-en_GB.pdf but get errors
<KE1HA> Tried*
<jenkins> KE1HA: have you dome just make first?
<jenkins> also what branch are you doing it in?
<KE1HA> and as I did't install any language packs, Im at a loss as to how to compile now. as the instructions state: make ubuntu-manyal-LANG.pdf
<jenkins> KE1HA:  try just make
<KE1HA> make without the ubuntu-manual-LANG.pdf ?
<jenkins> yep
<KE1HA> rr ok hold on
<jenkins> that does the us english one. then if that works you can do your language
<KE1HA> Bingo .. how easy was that :-)
<KE1HA> I read through the how too a few times, but it didn't refrence making without LANG stipulation.
<KE1HA> Oh, one last ques, where does it put the output file ?
<KE1HA> ls
<jenkins> now does it work with the lang file? it puts it in the folder that you are in. main.pdf or ubuntu-manual-LANG.pdf
<KE1HA> opps, sri, was ls-ing the terminal
<KE1HA> Ok, let me have a look.
<KE1HA> Yep, output to main.pdf .. man you all did a fantastic job on this manual.
<jenkins> we try :)
<KE1HA> TNX, appreciate the help. I see the Development is now on 19.10 Yes ?
<KE1HA> oops 10.10
<jenkins> yep and lucid-e2
<jenkins> second editon for lts
<KE1HA> rr. Im doing allot of testing on 10.10 at the moment, with the QA teams..
<KE1HA> is there any plans to do an Advanced Manual or Sever Manual ?  the Wiki's are nice, but would eb great to ahve the PDF refrence manual.
<jenkins> there is no plane at the  moment as we could do with doubling-tripling the team size to achieve all we want
<KE1HA> Yeah, Documentation of one of those things that always seems to the under resourced, but from an end-user standpoint, needed the most when things go astray :-)
<KE1HA> Anyways, just a thought. Maybe I'll work on that along side a few other Doc projects Im tinkering with.
<jenkins> cool
<KE1HA> One last question, is there a Task List of things that need doing?
<nisshh> KE1HA: not really, but i think one is getting put together sometime
<nisshh> was discussed at a meeting we had the other day
<nisshh> KE1HA: you can pretty much do what you want, as long as you are working on the relevant things
<KE1HA> Ok, I saw the next meeting date, so will join in that, I think it would be beneficial to have a Who / What / When type thing so folks know who's working on what.
<nisshh> KE1HA: yea, thats exactly what we discussed, and by all means, come to the meeting, be great to have your input
<KE1HA> It may be too difficult to implement though, not sure, need to study the whole program allot more.
<KE1HA> Ok, thanks a bunch nisshh and jenkins I'm well chuffed with the fact that "It Works" :-)
<nisshh> KE1HA: i suppose even if we compile a list of who plays what roles and how, then people new to the project can get in contact with the right person initially
<jenkins> no problem have fun KE1HA
<nisshh> KE1HA: np, enjoy :)
<KE1HA> rr Take care, see ya in the meeting.
<nisshh> KE1HA: yep, cya there :)
<ChrisWoollard> Can you have a look at this. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/382986/ubuntu-manual/UbuntuManual.html. I am thinking of sending it to the maining list so some of our members can proof read / log bugs with e2. What do you think?
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: looks good to me
<thorwil> ChrisWoollard: some redundancy you could get rid of. perhaps with just a "Ubuntu Manual project members can download the latest build of lucid-e2 here."
<ChrisWoollard> how is that
<ChrisWoollard> or rather. How does it look now?
<popey> is that the latest build?
<popey> (r158 that is)
<ChrisWoollard> yes
<thorwil> ChrisWoollard: good
<ChrisWoollard> Thanks
<thorwil> jenkins, flan_: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/ad413fe2ce8e341c3c26b7b327929bb4
<popey> :( my bug not fixed
<jenkins> popey: it was the apt-get aptidue thing was it not?
<popey> bug 582361
<jenkins> thorwil: interesting idea, flan_ will not be up for a few hours
<jenkins> popey: its in the list with the milestone target so i assume it will be fixed before release on monday
<jenkins> thorwil: how would it work doing a stack off set of the desktops?
<popey> ok
<popey> thanks
<jenkins>  offset like the shotwell logo
<thorwil> jenkins: what do you mean with "a stack off set of the desktops"?
<jenkins> thorwil: http://yorba.org/shotwell/install/#binaries right hand side
<jenkins> not exaclty the same because we don't want to get them confused
<thorwil> jenkins: it would make it impossible to see it as a matrix and might become troublesome at lower sizes. note that this should be an icon. maybe an icon that can be used as logo, but not a logo in conception
<jenkins> right thats cool you know much more than i do :)
<KE1HA> Just curious, what is the preferred editor for working on the manual?
<jenkins> I use gedit
<KE1HA> doe it have a plug-in for checking syntax and things?
<KE1HA> Does*
<jenkins> I don't know, we use some custom commands so it would not help.
<KE1HA> I see, I just started looking at a few of the chapters. Looks like I need to go read and hopefully adsorb the Tex Manual :-)
<jenkins> also read our style guide which should be in the topic
<jenkins> \topic
<jenkins> http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf
<KE1HA> Ok, will start there first.
<popey> hmm, need to file another bug in the manual
<KE1HA> wow, between DocBook and LaTeX my brain is gonna start workign in binary 01101001001001
<jenkins> u o popey :P
<popey> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/616306
<popey> if anyone fancies confirming it :)
<KE1HA> actually, ya wanna stop gdm,  dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg but you should BU ur .conf first I'd thing. Need ro read the chapter first to see what its saying.
<popey> no
<popey> dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg  does _not_ fix xorg.conf
<popey> it is pointless running it
<KE1HA> Ok, I need to go re-rtfm :-)
<popey> :)
<ChrisWoollard> is there an equivilent now?
<ChrisWoollard> I suspect not now
<KE1HA> Ok, got it, I "skipped over" the part on At-Boot, so yes, reconfigure-xorg would help in that regard.
<KE1HA> Whoops Would Not Help
<KE1HA> There's allot of problems being reported on the Boot / Install Black screen.
<KE1HA> popey, But that section would apply if you had a problem with X and you dropped to a console right?
<popey> no
<popey> because.. again.. that command does _nothing_
<KE1HA> so you'd sudo X -configure v.s dpkg-reconfigure ?
<popey> have added a comment to the bug
<KE1HA> Yeah, X-Org docs says to X -configure, its just all the Wiki's and Ubuntu pages all seem to say dpkg-reconfigure.
<KE1HA> geezz, no wonder that never seems to help folks we we tell them to do it :-)
<ChrisWoollard> Can you add the X-org link to the bug
<KE1HA> It's an OpenBSD doc, I suppose that doesn't matter.
<KE1HA> http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq11.html#ConfigX
<popey> they're out of date
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: The \noindent tag just prevents indentation of the current paragraph. It has no effect on the font/style.
<ChrisWoollard> hello
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: Weirdly, i have checked this issue and now it appears to be ok.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Works for me. :)
<ChrisWoollard> I know. Me too now
<ChrisWoollard> i will close this call.
<godbyk> Okay.
<godbyk> Gah! My Makefile-fu is failing me today.
<ChrisWoollard> Eewwww
<godbyk> Hey, hannie.  How's it going?
<hannie> Hello godbyk, I just read your email
<hannie> I just had a visitor, so my reaction is somewhat late
<godbyk> No problem.
<hannie> I am about to forward your email to my fellow translators
<jenkins> flan_: ping
<Muscovy> jenkins, you mentioned editing when I was leaving the other day...?
<jenkins> Muscovy:  yea probably a good job to do is to is help ChrisWoollard who is an editor. He is reading through the lucid edition 2 before it is released. did you see the e-mail on the list?
<Muscovy> Oh, yeah.
<Muscovy> I started proofreading this morning.
<jenkins> cool :) we like people to get stuck in
<jenkins> also there are still some bugs to fix especially pope-y's ones :)
<Muscovy> I'll take a look. I'm on LP:616306 right now. :D
<flan_> jenkins, pong.
<jenkins> flan_: did you see thorwils new logo idea?
<flan_> Nope.
<jenkins> i will just find the link
<jenkins> http://www.foopics.com/showfull/ad413fe2ce8e341c3c26b7b327929bb4
<jenkins> only a concept of course
<jenkins> I am as always undecided and with no real opinion
<jenkins> hey c7p and nisshh
<flan_> It's clean and simple, but I'm not sure if it conveys any meaning.
<jenkins> did you see my two attempts at a concept ideas?
<jenkins> http://imagebin.org/108933 and http://imagebin.org/108932
<jenkins> and there is thorwils original idea, ben did mention it in his blog post as well
<jenkins> flan_: as you can tell I am quite an artist :P
<nisshh> jenkins: hey
<jenkins> hows nisshh today?
<flan_> 108933 isn't all that bad, actually...
<jenkins> well if done by a real artist it would work better
<flan_> Of course.
<flan_> But I mean its general feel.
<jenkins> yea I am not sure if i showed thorwil that. what do you think of http://imagebin.org/108933 vish?
<jenkins> I saw one of these in a shop as inspiration http://lifehacker.com/5309338/spaghetti-measure-gets-your-portions-right
<c7p> hey jenkins
<jenkins> c7p: did you see i did a mock up of your idea http://imagebin.org/108932 . not a good mock up
<c7p> hehe yap :P
<jenkins> any other budding artist out there?
<Muscovy> Anyone know if there's a max size for \userinput{} strings?
<c7p> I've just seen the list of translators on credits, there is one guys from my team that isn't on the list and he sent me now an email about it
<c7p> could his name be added to credits ?
<jenkins> c7p: I would *think* so you would have to get godbyk to update the website.
<jenkins> Muscovy:  can you show us an example of what you are working on? I am not sure where we use that command
<c7p> the site's content is way out of date :P I don't know if it has translators hehe
<c7p> um talking about the second edition of manual
<godbyk> be with you guys in just a few minutes.
<jenkins> O right I thought you ment the 1st edition of the greek one. are all the translators in the english one? we can soon add him/her
<c7p> i added him in the greek one ... but unluckily I mistype his name .... (I'm awful :P)
<c7p> in the first edition I don't know why he isn't on the list
<Muscovy> Here's an example: \prompt \userinput{sudo reboot now}
<jenkins> c7p: feel free to add him
<Muscovy> I'm trying to fix something in troubleshooting, but I get intermittent errors about strings being too big.
<c7p> who has access to the proper tex file to add him ?
<jenkins> Muscovy: do you get the Succes it has built correctly! when you run make?
<jenkins> c7p: everyone as far as I know
<c7p> you mean it's on the branch
<jenkins> yep should be
<c7p> the funny thing is that I ve still the problem with my local machine, I get a  message like "file conflict" etc :@
<jenkins> what is the name and edition and language do you want it added in c7p?
<c7p> edition: lucid-e2, name: Konstantinos Zigourakis
<Muscovy> No, it drops to a prompt asking me what to do. I'll paste the error.
<Muscovy> [133][134]
<Muscovy> Overfull \hbox (2.49702pt too wide) in paragraph at lines 97--97
<Muscovy> |\EU1/LinuxBiolinumO(0)/bx/n/10.95 Ubuntu doesnât present the login screen wh
<Muscovy> en my computer boots|
<Muscovy> [134[135]]
<Muscovy> ! Missing $ inserted.
<Muscovy> <inserted text>
<Muscovy>                 $
<Muscovy> l.111 \prompt \userinput{mv xorg.conf xorg_old}
<Muscovy>                                                
<Muscovy> ?
<Muscovy> Whoops, I should've pastebin'd that.
<Muscovy> The question mark is a prompt.
<jenkins> can you paste bin it so it makes more sense please :)
<jenkins> lol manualbot is in the special thanks
<jenkins> small screen :/
<c7p> jenkins: how the quickshot development is going ?
<jenkins> c7p: a lack of time is not helping it
<c7p> :/
<jenkins> also I have loads to learn to implement what i want to do for this release
<jenkins> *of learning to do to
<jenkins> c7p: pushed the change
<jenkins> Muscovy: can you pastebin the file which you are working on please
<Muscovy> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/476630/
<c7p> ty man :)
<jenkins> np
<c7p> I'm sure you will look back in time and see that the trip (learning to do things) really worth it, maybe more that the destination ;)
<jenkins> o flan_ did you see that ben has set spetember the 10th as quickshot release, is said we would try but made no promises
<Muscovy> Here: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/476632/
<c7p> way out of topic but I think you have to know that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseids it's already 12th of August
<jenkins> Muscovy: I think I have it one moment
<godbyk> Muscovy: There's no set limit to the \userinput command.
<jenkins> Muscovy: put a \ before the _ so it looks like \_
<jenkins> _ is a special character in latex
<godbyk> Muscovy: You need to escape the underscore: \_
<jenkins> for # $ % & ~ _ ^ \ { } to show you have to put a \ infront of them
<jenkins> i won godbyk :P
<godbyk> jenkins: You cheated! I was still reading the backlog. :-P
<c7p> lol
<jenkins> lol I was not going to point that out
<godbyk> c7p: As for the translator stuff, I'm not sure what we're going to do there.  If we list every single translator in each edition of the manual, it will (a) be a huge list, and (b) may cause some difficult issues (as multiple fonts will be required to handle all the languages/characters).
<godbyk> What I was thinking is that we'd list the translation editors in the English edition.
<godbyk> Then each translated edition can list all the translators that helped with that particular language.
<godbyk> What do you guys think of that notion?
<nisshh> godbyk: why not list the translation TEAMS?
<Muscovy> Ah, thanks, that makes sense.
<jenkins> I have no problem with that godbyk. the issue with the teams thing nisshh is sometimes there are not actual teams just random people
<jenkins> we have listed teams in there at the moment
<godbyk> I think it's more of an incentive if you're own name appears, too. :)
<c7p> godbyk: ok I agree but the guy sent me the email so I had to say it
<godbyk> The current list of translators is just whatever humpreybc gave me.  He probably made it all up to begin with. ;-)
<jenkins> c7p: I have not looked outside to see any of the stars yet
<jenkins> is anyone on maverick yet?
<c7p> yap my name is on the list and also of other greek translator he is the only out of the list
<godbyk> c7p: I understand.  I'm not sure what the best solution is.  If everyone okay with what I proposed, we may do that for e2.
 * jenkins meh cloudy out
<c7p> godbyk: ok
 * c7p clear sky :D
<godbyk> jenkins: flooded here.  and we're now on a boil water advisory as of 3 hours ago.
<jenkins> right I am off to bed I need to get into a "normal" sleeping pattern before monday
<jenkins> is your house flodded out godbyk?
<c7p> night jenkins
<jenkins> *flooded
<godbyk> my basement office is a little wet in the corner.  but otherwise it's okay.
<jenkins> thats lucky
<godbyk> other places are completely flooded, though.
<jenkins> not good
<c7p> we are lucky that there are no hurricanes or other extreme weather phenomena here (at least these years)
<jenkins> right night again all
<c7p> i g2g too
<c7p> night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-08-12
<ChrisWoollard> Muscovy: Thanks for helping out. It is much appreciated.
<infosoft> Hello everyone! :)
<infosoft> I was a little bit inactive and don't know all the news... Do we have lucid-e2 writing freeze? If not, is the freeze date known?
<nisshh> infosoft: hang on a sec thers an image somewhere
<infosoft> I already found it
<infosoft> http://humphreybc.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/dev-infographic.png
<infosoft> I guess lucid-e2 writing freeze is August 16th
<nisshh> about there yea
<nisshh> infosoft: found it!: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1887929/dev-infographic.png
<ChrisWoollard> infosoft: We are currently going through e2 to iron out any bugs
<thorwil> http://www.slideshare.net/azaraskin/how-to-prototype-and-influence-people
<jenkins> evening all
<ChrisWoollard> evening
<fenre> hi
#ubuntu-manual 2010-08-13
<Muscovy> I suppose next week we'll get going on Maverick?
<godbyk> Muscovy: Yeah, after we release the second edition of 10.04, we'll be moving on to the Maverick edition.
<daker> hello everybody !!
<Muscovy> Hello.
<daker> http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2039525&id=1582176372&l=29171fb83d
<Muscovy> Nice!
<Omega> So guys, what's up for tonight?
<Muscovy> Here's a quickshot logo idea: http://www.flickr.com/photos/muscovyx/4886367385/
<humphreybc> Muscovy: cool logo idea
<humphreybc> although we probably don't want the screenshot to be dependant on an operating system or version
<Muscovy> Yeah, good point.
<Muscovy> I got the vague idea from Thorwil's concept.
<Muscovy> Here's an edited that doesn't say Ubuntu _quite_ as much: http://www.flickr.com/photos/muscovyx/4886602265/
<KE1HA> Hello all, anyone around ?
<nisshh> KE1HA: yep, sup?
<KE1HA> nisshh, Hello, where would we go to make a recommendation to add something to the manual? Bu the way, the install is working great.
<nisshh> KE1HA: sorry i was AFK for a sec, what did you have in mind to recommend?
<KE1HA> Well, After habing out in the UB channel and getting asked the same questions over and over, especially form New Users, I though it would eb good to add a back-Up how too or at least informaiton on what is critical and how they could approach it.
<nisshh> KE1HA: can you expand on that, im not quite following what your saying just yet
<nisshh> sounds interesting thoung
<nisshh> though
<KE1HA> Basically, how, and why to back up your data.
<nisshh> ah
<nisshh> KE1HA: you mean a new section in the manual on backing up your data?
<KE1HA> I get asked constantly, how to back up my files, what should be backed up, where should I put it, simple stuffl like that.
<nisshh> yea
<KE1HA> It clearly fits the scope of the manual and is a good practice for any-level of manual actually.
<KE1HA> Not to mention,we get asked at least 10 times a day, How Can I recover my data, or restor it after an install went wrong.
<nisshh> KE1HA: it certainly makes sense, but the one problem is that (to the best of my knowledge) ubuntu doesnt HAVE a backup tool by default, and thats all we cover in the manual, dfault tools
<KE1HA> Ahh... ok .. I see. Let me look at what is available in the Base Repo's. Im sure we can make somethign feasable.
<nisshh> KE1HA: i think maybe as a workaround the the above problem, we could add some info to the manual about using a seperate /home directory, what do you think?
<KE1HA> If nothing else, rsync and simple TAR / rsync commands woudl do it.
<KE1HA> Yeah, seperate /home I dot that as a standard practice.
<nisshh> KE1HA: we are trying to avoid the command-line :)
<KE1HA> oosp I do that.
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> i use rsync too, but do you really think a new Ubuntu user would?
<KE1HA> Doesn't work well when you Multi-Boot lots of Distros, but for a common Install, works great.
<nisshh> yea
<KE1HA> rsync A to B .. dead simple.
<nisshh> not for a new user :)
<KE1HA> on:-)
<KE1HA> Well, that's out Job, it to make it "easy" for new users :-)
<KE1HA> our Job.
<nisshh> KE1HA: but all the same, you have a very good point, its something worth thinking about for the maverick manual
<nisshh> exactly right
<KE1HA> I'll work on something, and give you a shout back in a few days.
<nisshh> KE1HA: awesome, no rush, it probably wont get chucked in till maverick anyway
<KE1HA> Ok, TNX, will ttul.
<nisshh> yep :)
<KE1HA> nisshh, you still around?
<KE1HA> If not, no worries, you'll when you get back, but Quick-Shot install just crashed X on my workstation, gonna try and track down what happened. Its working after reboot though.
<nisshh> KE1HA: you should talk to jenkins if your quickshot install isnt working properly
<KE1HA> Hi nisshh it's working after install, was just during the install that is crashed.
<nisshh> KE1HA: ah cool :)
<KE1HA> nisshh, Now I just have to learn how it's used properly :-)  I may need to do a Workstaiton that's all native too, as the menu's have additional items as such.
<nisshh> KE1HA: ah yea
<jenkins> evening all
<jenkins> linux outlaws is called Neckbeards Unite! lol ben
 * jenkins thanks his dad for unplugging the router
<nschle85> hello
<nschle85> are there any native english speakers herer
<nschle85> ?
<jenkins> nschle85: yep
<jenkins> what are you stuck on?
<nschle85> jenkins: is depencies a real english word ?
<godbyk> nschle85: Should be "dependencies".
<jenkins> nschle85: yep dependencies is in the oxford dictionary
<jenkins> I was just double checking that i had typed it right :)
<nschle85> jjjjjjjjje
<nschle85> jenkins: should be or is ?
<jenkins> if you spell it right is is an english word
<nschle85> is "depencies" spelled right ? (google it please)
<jenkins> dependencies is right I looked it up in a dictionary. "depencies"  is wrong
<nschle85> thank you
<jenkins> np
#ubuntu-manual 2010-08-14
 * jenkins started to file a bug that a project had no apport support but then decided to write the apport stuff  for them :)
<jenkins> its like a 5 min job when you know how
<ChrisWoollard> Aren't you clever
<ChrisWoollard> Is apport another one of those things that is python?
<jenkins> it is in python. I am not clever it took me ages to understand it all and i still know almost no python
<jenkins> quickshot has become cery taxing
<jenkins> *very
<ChrisWoollard> Python is one of those languages  that i feel i should learn but i just haven't yet. It scares me that white space is important
<jenkins> if you mean the white space at the start thats easy once you remember to do it. if you mean something else I have no clue and probably should :P
<ChrisWoollard> i think it is the bit at the beginning.
<ChrisWoollard> Last time i sat down to write a program. I got fed up and then just wrote it in perl.
<jenkins> well for every time you do an indent its four spaces
 * jenkins waits for someone to tell him he has done it wrong
<jenkins> hey nisshh, would you like apport support for pytask?
<ChrisWoollard> Anyway Jenkins. I am tired. I should go to bed. Goodnight.
<ChrisWoollard> Goodnight also to anybody else that is around.
<jenkins> night ChrisWoollard I will be going in a moment
<jenkins> /usr/share/apport/package-hooks/ is where source_pytask.py goes. http://paste.ubuntu.com/477674/
<jenkins> /etc/apport/crashdb.conf.d is where pytask-crashdb.conf goes. http://paste.ubuntu.com/477673/
<jenkins> nisshh: "
<jenkins> ^
<jenkins> make sure you name the files right I have not tested them just run ubuntu-bug pytask and it should work
<synergetic> hey guys -- anyone have any idea if there's going to be a manual meeting in the near-future?
<jenkins> good question synergetic, we should have one soonish, there is not one scheduled as far as i know
<ChrisWoollard> In the last meeting. Didn't somebody suggest every two weeks?
<jenkins> there was one on monday just gone so i guess that makes it next week end
<synergetic> i hadn't heard anything in ages and wanted to get involved (been meaning to for months now but never could spare much time before)
<jenkins> what would you like to help with synergetic?
<synergetic> jenkins: not fussed, really ^_^ was why i was hoping there'd be a meeting -- possibly to find out areas that need work
<ChrisWoollard> You could always help proof read e2. That is due for release next week.
<jenkins> you beat me to it ChrisWoollard
<jenkins> after thats out its onto mavrick writting. if you know python we could use a hand with quickshot
<synergetic> are you guys still working in LaTeX?
<jenkins> yep
<synergetic> nah, i'm pitiful at programming.
<jenkins> that was a quick response from me (00:40:42) synergetic: are you guys still working in LaTeX?
<jenkins> (00:40:45) jenkins: yep
<jenkins> fair enough so am i :-/
 * jenkins needs to learn more before the next release
<synergetic> so for proofreading -- have you guys got a system in place for how it's done? should i grab the LaTeX files, proofread to my hearts content, recomplie and submit? would i need access to a repository or anything?
<synergetic> actually. all this stuff is probably on the website, isn't it?
<jenkins> do you have latex installed?
<synergetic> jenkins: not currently, but it doesn't take long
<jenkins> the info for that is on the website. https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/msg02161.html is the info about the proof reading
<jenkins> http://ubuntu-manual.org/getinvolved/authors is the latex stuff at the end
<jenkins> you need bzr branch lp:ubuntu-manual/lucid-e2
<ChrisWoollard> You can either read the pdf and file bugs or fix them as well if you have the latex stuff.
<synergetic> ok. bzr is what i'll have to learn. hehe
<jenkins> you should also read it has examples of the commands we use http://files.ubuntu-manual.org/style-guide.pdf
<synergetic> did the discussion of a manual-docs website redesign-combo ever get anywhere with the paragraph-edit suggestion box? i still think that'd be awesome
<ChrisWoollard> There is a repository for the latex stuff. http://paste.ubuntu.com/438685/
<jenkins> bzr is easy, allways update before starting work with "bzr pull" . do your work run "make" check it is all ok, fix it if not. run "bzr pull" then run "bzr commit -m <your changes here>" . then "bzr push"
<jenkins> the ppa is down atm
<jenkins> the website is in the list to do
<synergetic> cool
<jenkins> I have to move the ppa an latex 2010 is out soon so I took it down for now
<jenkins> *and
<ChrisWoollard> How long has the ppa been down?
<nisshh> jenkins: woah, sorry about that, i was deeply emerged in a google search, what were you saying about pytask?
<jenkins> about a week, there is a bug in it which does not affect most team members but it does effect me :/ with the team ownership changing stuff i want to restrict who uploads to it ( ChrisWoollard )
<jenkins> nisshh: read the scroll back I have done apport support for pytask
<ChrisWoollard> WHat is the bug?
<jenkins> 00:35 is the time stamp you want
<nisshh> jenkins: i forgot, what does apport do again?
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard:  when compiling non english langauges the index gives a japanese letters. kevin does the final compile but I do index order writing for xindy as needed.
<jenkins> nisshh: filing bugs with all the info needed
<nisshh> jenkins: ah cool, thanks for that
 * nisshh goes off to test it out
<jenkins> synergetic: any problems shout in here we are all busy but you will get a response at some point
<jenkins> nisshh: no probs
<ChrisWoollard> Ok, I definitely don't compile non english
<ChrisWoollard> some people spend way to long here ;)
<synergetic> awesome. thanks guys
<synergetic> i'm in GMT so it's quite late. i'm off to bed but i'll have a look at stuff tomorrow.
<synergetic> *waves* see you all around
<ChrisWoollard> Me too.
<ChrisWoollard> I said I was going to do that 15 minutes ago
<ChrisWoollard> oops
<jenkins> nisshh: does it work?
<nisshh> jenkins: hang on, not done yet
<nisshh> :)
<jenkins> what id did not tell you is you need to redo quicklys debian rules file to make it install them. I am going to do quickshots one so I will let you know how.
<jenkins> sorry its late here :)
<nisshh> ok
<Omega> Hey guys.
<jenkins> hey Omega
<Omega> jenkins: Did you look into gummi?
<jenkins> yea because our project uses several files in different folders it does not work
<Omega> Ah
<jenkins> I will file a bug at some point
<nisshh> jenkins: works a treat
<jenkins> sweet, right I am off to bed night all
<nisshh> jenkins: what about modifying quickly's rules file?
<jenkins> it needs to be done so that the files get packaged right I am yet to work out exactly how to do it I might try some time this week.
<nisshh> jenkins: ok, one last question, where should those two files be put in the bzr branch?
<jenkins> where ever you like :) I have put them in usr ........ and etc ..... temporayly so i remember  where they go in the file system. you can put them where you like as you just adjust your debian rules file acordingly
<Omega> Launchpad should use git :>
<nisshh> jenkins: ok
<jenkins> I will give you a hand with the rules file once I know how
<jenkins> nigth
<askhl_> Hi.  From the manual:  "If ``disconnected'' appears in gray underneath the wired network section, look below to see if an option labeled ``Auto eth$0$'' appears in the list. If so, click on it to attempt to establish a wireless connection."
<askhl_> Surely eth$0$ is a wired connection, no?
<askhl_> I've never seen eth0 being a wireless one
<nisshh> askhl_: correct, thats a bug in the manual, which manual is that from though?
<nisshh> e1 or e2?
<askhl_> It's lucid e1
<nisshh> askhl_: ah, it might have been fixed in e2 already
<askhl_> nisshh, probably then
<nisshh> askhl_: just let me check, which page is it on?
<askhl_> it's string 364 in the translation :)
<nisshh> askhl_: uhm, ok
<nisshh> askhl_: yep, its still there in the latest builds
<nisshh> askhl_: can you file a bug on launchpad about it?
<nisshh> askhl_: you still there?
<nisshh> askhl_: anyway, i have to go now, if you could file a bug on launchpad about it, that would be great, just please target it at e2 NOT e1 or maverick, gnight :)
<askhl_> To whom it may concern, I reported it as nisshh asked me to.  But didn't see any specification of release to report against
<dutchie> askhl_: do you have a link?
<dutchie> (to the bug you reported)
<askhl_> dutchie, https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/617845
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 617845 in ubuntu-manual "2 errors: eth0 wireless and 'send and receive' title" [Undecided,New]
<askhl_> (yeah, different bugs should frequently go into different bug reports, that's sometimes impractical when you tend to get them a bunch at a time, sorry)
<ChrisWoollard> askhl_: Thanks for the bug reports.
<askhl_> ChrisWoollard, you're welcome
<ChrisWoollard> :)
 * ubuntujenkins__ can't use my normal nick jenkins and has no clue why
<jenkins> how is everyone this evening?
<thorwil> hi jenkins. alright, pushing letter shapes around and trying to forget Ben's communication disaster continuation :)
<jenkins> hey thorwil, did you hear linuc outlaws podcast and the beardnecks mentioned loads
<jenkins> *linux
<thorwil> nope
<jenkins> they mentioned it LOADS it got quite funny. ( them mentioning of it got funny)
<ChrisWoollard> evening all.
<jenkins> hey ChrisWoollard
<ChrisWoollard> hello
<thorwil> making fun of it is the best thing to do
<thorwil> hi ChrisWoollard
<ChrisWoollard> Which podcast is it that everyone has evenbody been listening to?
<jenkins> linux outlaws (discussing), uppc, fullcircle and tuxradar
<thorwil> this is the podcast i can't be bothered to listen to: http://linuxoutlaws.com/podcast/162
<jenkins> thorwil: yep, i did not read it all i got bored :P
 * thorwil very rarely listens to podcasts
<jenkins> I like them studying at uni i don't have much time to read stuff so listening is a good way to catch up. Linux outlaws does take some getting use to incomparisson with uupc and the others
<ChrisWoollard> i tend to only listen to tux radar
<ChrisWoollard> outlaws is quite long
<thorwil> jenkins: you study while listening to podcasts?
<jenkins> I liked shot of jaq but they stopped. Tux radar is only every two weeks and they often give news that is getting old, there is not much in it I prefer the longer uups and outlaws.
<jenkins> thorwil: yep
<thorwil> there are a number of things i can do well while listening to music. doesn't keep from getting into the zone, at least if it's music i already know. but people talking? concentration killer
<jenkins> or research or go to bed and listen. I find that i spend two hours in bed thinking at uni as I don't have the time in the rest of the day
<jenkins> I think it does depend what you doing I think. I have to listen to the outlaws in a quite room. but I must have got use to it people talk in lectures all the time :/ . it can make it hard to hear the lecture
<jenkins> thorwil: flan_ likes the "potential" my lame idea of has http://imagebin.org/108933 are you able to see if you can make it look better / or have any suggestions or criticisms  please
<jenkins> or vish ^
<thorwil> jenkins: sorry, but i see no place to take it to. not even a road
<jenkins> thorwil: fair enough I do think it is not the best idea
<jenkins> thanks anyway
<vish> jenkins: thats for the website? or a logo?
<jenkins> logo/icon idea
<vish> jenkins: too complex.. wont work as a logo..
<jenkins> cool thanks, what about it makes it too complex just so i understand the reasoning
<thorwil> vish: seen http://www.foopics.com/showfull/ad413fe2ce8e341c3c26b7b327929bb4 ?
<jenkins> I will look and see if I have flan_'s comment on that one I can't recall what he said
<vish> jenkins: if we are to use it in the wbesite , as a backdrop it is ok , but for a logo , it needs to be simple shapes , something that can scale in different sizes and still be recognizable
<jenkins> ok vish
<vish> jenkins: we can just get lazy and steal , the f-spot icon , and redo it for quickshot :D
<vish> thorwil: whats that for?
<jenkins> hmm I like the shape but that is rather lazy an rip off like
<jenkins> (22:20:29) flan_: It's clean and simple, but I'm not sure if it conveys any meaning.
<jenkins> I spoke to him later that day or the next. I would a project rename make it easier to do an icon? Its rather extreme and I am not sure it would help
<jenkins> docshot
<thorwil> vish: if you really have to ask that question in this context, it's for nothing and shall be burned up and the ash given to the wind, to be never mentioned again :)
<jenkins> also there are allot of people who would have to make that decision but its an idea
<thorwil> sure, a name like lemon-cow would make it easy to create an icon. but to find another name that would help with creating an icon that makes regarding what the app does?
<jenkins> lol, yea thats kinda what I thought but I mentioned it just in case :)
<thorwil> if a client came to me with a case like this one, i guess i would have to turn him down :/
<jenkins> yea it is such a strange job I have to say.
<thorwil> tempting to just place a little camera in front of a stack of pictures. which would likely break down below 64 px
<jenkins> hmm, I suppose we could redo bens original with out the ubuntu logo.
<jenkins> http://imagebin.org/109676 current icon at small size in the menu
<vish> jenkins: thorwil: a half-ass'd attempt : http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/quickshot.png  ;p
<vish> just a rough idea.. probably needs a lot of work..
<thorwil> vish: that's a logo then, not an icon
<vish> thorwil: werent we looking for a logo?
<vish> oh i was confused.. :/
<jenkins> another stupid question whats the difference don't they both look the same?
<thorwil> jenkins: an application icon has to work in the context of the Applications menu, launchers, software center ...
<thorwil> the icon should allow people to make a good guess what the app is about
<jenkins> but they can be the same but don't have to be? could any icon make people guess what quickshot is about?
<thorwil> a logo has to work in the context of a website for the application
<vish> thorwil: this might work as an icon too.. probably need to scale it well..
<jenkins> right so the icon could be part of the logo. Just making sure I understand this better
<thorwil> jenkins: they can be the same, yes. but if you aim for that, you have to create an icon, then you can use it as is for the logo or spice it up a bit
<jenkins> I understand now thanks
<thorwil> not to forget that icons have a square canvas, while a logo can be any format
<jenkins> yep
<jenkins> can we not put a cartoon camera sat on a stack of screenshots?
<jenkins> very close to (20:10:07) thorwil: tempting to just place a little camera in front of a stack of pictures.
<jenkins> flan_: ping
<jenkins> popey: when is the next podcast recording?
<thorwil> jenkins: all the major icon themes are non-cartoony
<popey> monday
<jenkins> thanks
<jenkins> well i ment as suppose to a full detail camera. http://www.core77.com/hack2school/img/cc_camera.jpg view of one
<jenkins> http://imagebin.org/109678 my very quick attempt :P
<vish> thorwil: btw , that was in 48x48 .. [and i shamelessly used the Ubuntu font ;p]
<popey> jenkins: why?
<jenkins> I may send you an e-mail thats all
<jenkins> :)
<vish> jenkins: pretty sure , nikon will try to sue you ;p
<thorwil> vish: hah, i so used the ubuntu font without even knowing what shame is earlier, already :)
<jenkins> lol vish
<jenkins> that does convey what the program does right?
<thorwil> well, you saw what happens when you try to express it a bit closer
<jenkins> yea, I am glad you have both explained all this I feel I have a better understanding of it all
<jenkins> I bet ben will not like it but he has not thought of anything yet
<thorwil> jenkins: who's project is quickshot, anyway? ;)
<vish> thorwil: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/quickshot24.png  thats how it looks at 24px..
<vish> hrm.. :s
<jenkins> I like vish q but it does not convey the projects purpose
<vish> bah , i give up! today has not been good :..
<jenkins> I did not mean to cause you to give up :P
<jenkins> :(
<vish> jenkins: hehe , not cause of what you said ..
<jenkins> thats good then
<thorwil> vish: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfyvSM-6c14
 * jenkins sets about rewriting the debian rules file, fails so far = 0
<vish> thorwil: ;)
<jenkins> this is a good video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc very artistic
<thorwil> yeah, it's awesome
<vish> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gMrG5lkYeg
<vish> lmao!
<vish> "many of you may mock my interest in the party sciences!"
<vish> pastry*
<thorwil> good night!
<jenkins> vish: lol thats great
<jenkins> fail = 1 a change in the way to do it, I should not have started with an old guide
<popey> jenkins: ok, earlier the better, we plan the show before we record - unlike many podcasts ;)
<jenkins> yep I will do my best popey, it may have to be for the next one
<popey> we record on monday evening, so sometime before 8pm would be the latest
<jenkins> wow I was thinking sunday morning would be rude I *should* manage that one
<jenkins> you may get a late one popey, flan_ has no internet at home thats why I can't get hold of him.
<popey> :)
<jenkins> doh! silly me :-[
<popey> out of interest, what's it about?
<jenkins> quickshot, we could do with and extra programmer or two I just want to check with flan_ that he is happy with that. Is that suitable for uupc? if not no worries
<popey> yeah, totally, calls for help are great
<popey> leave us a voicemail! :D
<jenkins> I can do that on skype right?
<popey> yup
<jenkins> right thats a plan
<popey> "Leave a voicemail via phone: +44 (0) 203 298 1600, sip: podcast@sip.ubuntu-uk.org and skype: ubuntuukpodcast"
<jenkins> thanks was about to look 30 seconds right? the more i think the later it could be it may have to wait till next week as I start placement this week. I just need a quickchat with flan for a few things
 * jenkins thinks of what to say
<jenkins> right night all
#ubuntu-manual 2010-08-15
<Muscovy> Is the release day still Sunday?
<nisshh> Muscovy: should be :)
<godbyk> Muscovy: It'll be released on Monday, the 16th.
<KE1HA> anyone from the manual team around ?
<Muscovy> I suppose I'm manual team, so yes.
<KE1HA> Hello, just a quick question, as far as writing a manual chapter goes, are we only allowed to use / write about applications that are part of the default installation?
<Muscovy> I believe so.
<Muscovy> At the present at least, there's no "other neat applications" section.
<Muscovy> The closest is mentioning things like Wine and codecs.
<brandonj> I would probably try to stay away from writing all new content now
<Muscovy> Though a section akin to the software centre's Featured Applications might be a good idea for the 10.10 manual.
<brandonj> Is e2 ready to go for monday?
<Muscovy> I believe it is.
<brandonj> wonderful!
<KE1HA> Thanks all, Im looking for a backup applicaiton, and there several in the repos, but none are installed by default.
<KE1HA> Which, I really dont understand why not.
<april_g> hi everyone :)
<april_g> i was wondering, do you have any plans of writing documentation for ubuntu netbook edition?
<brandonj> I think a netbook edition was talked about, but right now we're focusing on getting lucid-edition2 and maverick out
<brandonj> perhaps in the future?
<KE1HA> that's what I was told as well, focus on v2 then 10.10
<april_g> ok. i was actually interested in helping out with that.
<april_g> is there anything that still needs doing for maverick?
<KE1HA> Well, the Devs are doing allot of work on it still april_g its not do out until October.
<brandonj> yes, maverick has lots to do
<KE1HA> However, if you wnat to Join the Testing teams, you can get familiar with it at the early stages.
<april_g> i meant in terms of the manual.  :) i'm not really sure about the process yet, but i'd really like to get into that
<april_g> thanks KE1HA , i'll look into that :)
<KE1HA> They have have to finish the release before we could really start writing, I guess there will be commonalties, but safer to wait I'd think.
<brandonj> april_g: considering sending out an email to the ubuntu-manual mailing list, I'm not sure where we stand on Maverick stuff yet
<april_g> thanks brandonj i'll do that as well :)
<KE1HA> On thing that will definitely help you is reading the styles guide and playing around with the markup lang.  and getting familiar
<KE1HA> Tex is all new to me, so been learning allot from the guide.
<april_g> I'm new to Tex as well. Im still messing around with it :)
<april_g> thanks for the info guys! i appreciate it :)
<april_g> i hope you don't mind if i just hang out here on irc
<april_g> :)
<brandonj> the more the merrier
<brandonj> unless you turn out to be a jerk
<brandonj> =P
<KE1HA> It's nice to see activity in here, sometimes its rather quiet. I saw your e-mail the other day about joining (alt least I think it was yours) , so welcome aboard.
<april_g> brandonj i'm pretty nice, i think :) i haven't been told otherwise
<april_g> lol
<april_g> thanks KE1HA
<Omega> Ubuntu should have some sort of tutorial at first boot.
<Omega> A little walkthrough.
<KE1HA> You were a tech-0writer for a tech-dev company right? I spent many year in tech as well.
<KE1HA> Whoop tech-writer ..
<Omega> Like, showing the user how to open the browser.
<Omega> And playing a song.
<Omega> Making a odt document.
<april_g> KE1HA yes, for several years
<Muscovy> You know, I wonder if we could see the manual become a part of the example content.
<KE1HA> Yeah, like take the Ubuntu tour or something?
<Omega> ,
<april_g> Omega like a quick start guide?
<Omega> Install a package.
<Omega> Yes.
<Omega> But, interactive.
<Omega> It 'tracks' your progress.
<KE1HA> I've tried to make those before, Im not too savvy at it, but they are neat.
<brandonj> I think it needs one of those 'Welcome' videos like OS x
<brandonj> </SARCASM>
<Omega> And tell the user about free replacements to some windows (or mac) apps that they are used to.
<april_g> Omega having a tutorial like that would be cool, especially for those new to the system :)
<Omega> It would help a lot.
<brandonj> its a good idea Omega
<april_g> it would make ubuntu far less intimidating
<Omega> Maybe I should start a project like that.
<brandonj> I would be interested in working on something like that
<Omega> Cool.
<Omega> We'll call it Ubuntu Tour or something like that.
<Omega> I'm open to suggestions :)
<brandonj> I was never very good at thinking up names
<KE1HA> Well, woking the Ubuntu answers on Launchpad, and the ubuntu channel, there 10 to maby 15 topis that are beat to death by new users every day, simple things, I think that would certainly help with that problem.
<Omega> And, it can let the user set up a launchpad account and submit his/her first bug :)
<KE1HA> Like how do I see / get my files on my windows box?
<Omega> And maybe explain what the "Home Folder" is, when they are only used to "My Documents"
<KE1HA> How do I get my music to play from windows, and it goes on an on an on. Simple things.
<Omega> Indeed.
<Omega> It is those things that make the biggest impact on users.
<Muscovy> Omega: I'd join that project. :D
<brandonj> Omega: you should start this up
<brandonj> I'm suprised nobody has done something like that before, actually
<april_g> definitely Omega. i'd join this project
<Omega> Well, what should we call it guys?
<KE1HA> For idea, sit in the ubuntu channel fer about a weeks, and make a little matrix, on topics v.s. ho many time they are asked, that would eb a good starting point.
<Omega> Mhm.
<Omega> It would.
<brandonj> tutelage!
<Omega> Also, I'd like to look at how UM is organized
<Muscovy> Ubuntu Tour sounds good, if ordinary.
<KE1HA> I think another area that needs help is, showing people "where to get help", there so many resources, people get lost in where to go.
<Omega> Indeed.
<Omega> So, #ubuntu-tour is open
<Omega> But, we can also hang out here
<KE1HA> I think theres a Ubuntu-beginners channel already, may be worth while to explore what they done as well.
<KE1HA> Omega, Organized, I would really like to see that structure also, but I guess that's the nature of open source, if can be very free-flowing.
<Omega> Eh, I'm an anarchist, but organization is never bad :)
<KE1HA> I hope you all don't have to proof anything I write, geezz, just looked at all those typos' LOL Not good !
<KE1HA> I' not looking for the head of the ship or anything, just an overview would be nice.
<KE1HA> Take for instance, documentation on its on, There's the Manual, there's wiki's, systems docs, How-To's personal wiki's the forums, there's allot of stuff.
<april_g> exactly KE1HA. it gets rather overwhelming
<KE1HA> Then, the different distros, their cross overs, uniqueness etc etc .. somewhere there needs to be the Pond where all the water comes from :-)
<Muscovy> A wiki page or something would probably be the best start.
<Muscovy> If people don't like the Ubuntu wiki, we could always throw a Mediawiki or something up.
<brandonj> I think ubuntu manual will do for now
<brandonj> err
<brandonj> ubuntu wiki
<KE1HA> I honestly dont know what the right answer is or could be. It's just a vast subject.
<Muscovy> Hmm.
<KE1HA> I think the Documentations Team is the top level, as it branches to Systems, and Applications. Maybe that's where the manual should branch from, not sure.
<KE1HA> But it seems focused on Ubuntu alone, then there's the Distro's.
<Omega> What programs/subjects should the tour cover?
<Muscovy> The manual would take a lot of converting, If another distro used it, I imagine it would mostly be for the Tex.
<brandonj> getting online
<Muscovy> Firefox for sure.
<brandonj> installing/updating packages
<april_g> might be good to include something about the organization of the files on ubuntu
<Muscovy> Software centre, a bit of Nautilus.
<brandonj> and getting additional help
<Omega> http://openetherpad.org/GUNcK2dx75
<Omega> We can all add.
<KE1HA> Basic How too's fer sure. Instll Unix, Solaris or FreeBSD on a VM,  then write down the questions you get trying to do things, that's what new users to Ubuntu are faced with.
<brandonj> damn, why am I always pink?
<KE1HA> I'd say, how yo just opened that pad would be a good one :-) Never new that could be done.
<KE1HA> I can't get in the Pad thingy
<KE1HA> april_g1, how did you get in there ?
<april_g1> you're already on there KE1HA :) i see your name
<KE1HA> Do you type  just in the main frame ?
<Muscovy> Yes.
<KE1HA> Ok, never use this before, its pretty neat.
<KE1HA> Good brainstorm session all, look fer you tomorrow.
<Omega> Indeed.
<april_g> i just realized we haven't come up with a name yet. :) should we stick with ubuntu-tour?
<Muscovy> I like it, but I'm not sure.
<Muscovy> When in doubt, I'm going to look up synonyms.
<april_g> ok :) coz i don't know what to use as the name for the LP team.
<april_g> so.. i think i'll just wait for the others on that
<Muscovy> Probably best, yeah.
<Muscovy> Hmm, I guess ubuntu-tour.
<KE1HA> +1 from me, it identifies well with the purpose.
<april_g> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-tour this should do for now
<april_g> we can update the details: ownership, description (to include goals and other pertinent information) tomorrow
<april_g> should we have the mailing list hosted on launchpad or do you guys prefer having it hosted somewhere else?
<Muscovy> Launchpad is fine, IMO.
<april_g> ok. i've also filed in a request for the mailing list on LP
<Muscovy> I'll play around with a few logo ideas before I go to bed.
<Muscovy> Oh, mailing list is up already it seems.
<april_g> great!
<KE1HA> Man you all are flying though this :-)
<KE1HA> april_g, How did you create the LP ?
<april_g> KE1HA: i justwent to launchpad.net and there was an option to create a team :)
<april_g> i'll leave the creation of the project Omega :)
<KE1HA> Easy Peezy :-)
<KE1HA> I've not created one before, so was curious.
<april_g> KE1HA i thought you guys went to sleep already :)
<KE1HA> No, Im working on a Desktop-App-Testing matrix, looking at the cross-overs from UB / XUB/ EDUB
<nisshh> KE1HA: sounds interesting, care to tell me more?
<nisshh> april_g: its only 5:17PM where i am
<nisshh> :)
<april_g> nisshh we're about the same :)
<nisshh> april_g: ah ok
<KE1HA> Yes sure it's the QA team, we test ISO's and Desktop applications on new Distrobuitons. Hold on, will get the linky
<nisshh> KE1HA: ah, your on the QA team? cool :)
<KE1HA> Yeah, its allot of fun.
<KE1HA> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com'
<KE1HA> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Procedures
<nisshh> nice
<april_g> interesting :)
<april_g> nisshh are you somewhere in asia?
<nisshh> KE1HA: i thought about joining to QA team, but i decided manual + dev-manual + bugsquad + others is enough :)
<KE1HA> We're adding more and more Apps to the Desktop Apps fer testing, and there's nothign yet on Xubuntu and EDubuntu, so im working on that.
<nisshh> april_g: australia :)
<nisshh> KE1HA: sounds awesome :)
<april_g> KE1HA the QA thing looks really nice. :) altho i think i'll stick to the docs for now, seeing as I'm still new to all this
<KE1HA> Yeah, I was on the Hall of Fame for about three days Wooo-Hoo :-).. had the most tested ISO's fer a week :-)
<KE1HA> We also QA docs.
<nisshh> nice
<april_g> doc QA might be something i can help with :)
<KE1HA> Yeah, I think its importand, the whoel End-User experience starts when they Install, and if it falls over, its a negative impact from then on aout.
<KE1HA> Important.
<nisshh> yea
<nisshh> although most end-users despise docs
<KE1HA> Yeah, definately, they only want a doc when somethign goes wrong.
<april_g> nisshh ya. lol. they only consult docs when problems start piling up
<nisshh> jenkins: i added you to the contributors for pytask for that apport stuff
<KE1HA> The they want it, right now, and only the Fix, no fluff.
<nisshh> yea
<jenkins> thanks nisshh, I will give you a hand with the debian rules file I am getting there with quickshot's one
<nisshh> jenkins: also, have you figured out that rules file stuff yet?
<nisshh> ah cool
<KE1HA> Oh hey, Quickshots also works on Xubuntu.
<KE1HA> Installed that yesterday to test it.
<jenkins> KE1HA: cool thanks, did you get quickshot form the ppa?
<nisshh> KE1HA: nice, wouldnt surprise me if it did though, since Xubuntu uses A LOT of GNOME stuff from Ubuntu
<nisshh> brb
<jenkins> yep it does, i have yet to test it though, we are supporting kde and ldxe as well when i get around to it. eventually it would be nice to have a qt gui
<nisshh> yea
<KE1HA> jenkins, yes, just added the pps stuff, and installed, worked perfect.
<jenkins> thats good to hear :)
<KE1HA> Opps PPA, not PPS
<KE1HA> I've asked to be the Docs Lead fer Xubuntu, so if that pans out, gonna be buggin you gus allot about settign up bzr :-)
<KE1HA> That's why Im ding this Matrix also, I want to Identify all Standard Apps that happen at install, and ensure there's Docs covering all of them.
<KE1HA> for UB / XUB and EDUB
<KE1HA> I just finished a New UB VM install, zsync-ing EDUB now, so will have all 3 in VM's for Docs.
<KE1HA> With no extra packages that is, as my UB install has a few extras, so it's no good fer docs and writing.
<jenkins> KE1HA: that sounds cool but in the next release there will be no need for bzr to use quickshot. but he is welcome to have a chat with us he can also e-mail quickshotdevs@list.launchpad.net as there are only two active devs at the moment
<KE1HA> 2 Devs for Quickshot ?
<jenkins> devlopers working on quickshot
<KE1HA> rr ok .. understan. Why did you all descide to make Quickshot, does the standard screenshot app not do what's needed ?
<nisshh> KE1HA: it was first developed to be used to take the screenshots for the manual :)
<nisshh> KE1HA: since we have to take alot of very specific ones
<jenkins> well if you took a screenshot of you desktop now it would look different to mine. it means we can get the same screenshots in different langauges and upload them to the server for review.
<jenkins> also at the same resolution with minimal work by the user
<KE1HA> For consistent shots all the time, makes sense.
<jenkins> and generally the error rate has been low.
<KE1HA> They look nice, works well
<KE1HA> So is Quickshot going to replace screenshot ?
<jenkins> thanks, well we are rewriting it at the moment as that release was rather a rush.
<jenkins> do you mean replace the default screenshot program?
<KE1HA> yes
<jenkins> no it will not, quickshot is for projects to specify screenshots to be taken
<jenkins> for their docs/webpages
<KE1HA> Cool, hopefully it will be come the standard for all Web-Pages and Manuals
<jenkins> and docs :) thats the long term goal and across every distor
<KE1HA> I got a quesiton about Wiki ... you know whaen you seach for an App / version of an app / package, the 9.04 / 9.10 / 9.10 / 10.04 TAB appear at the top, how can we add those ot out personal wiki's ?
<KE1HA> Or I guess you could say, those TABS at the top of personal Wiki (Planet, Partners, Support etc) can we change them to somethign else ?
<jenkins> can you show an example page i don't look at the wiki very much
<KE1HA> http://imagebin.org/109740
<KE1HA> See the TABS there toward the TOP right, Ubuntu, Community, Support, Partners etc etc those tabs
<jenkins> I am not sure that is possible you could add a menu bar like the manual wiki does https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual
<KE1HA> Ok, just wondering, may be part of the main page that we can't edit. Would be nice though.
<jenkins> yea I think it is part of the main page, their may be a way but i don't know of onw
<jenkins> one
<KE1HA> r
<KE1HA> I like that Image Pastebin, that's things neat too.
<jenkins> yep very usefull
<KE1HA> So was that community notepad, that's great fer meetings.
<jenkins> etherpad?
<KE1HA> Im not sure what it was called hold on, i BM'ed it.
<KE1HA> Yes, that's it.
<jenkins> be back later today
<jenkins> cya
<KE1HA> TTUL
<thorwil> vish, flan_: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/97ddf1478522eee7212bca5f6963789e
<vish> thorwil: ooh! i like the first row second one..! :)  what size is that?
<thorwil> vish: 48
<vish> nice..
<vish> thorwil: lol , you fell into the trap of using a camera ;p
<thorwil> ty. though, this stacking always seem to bring some unrest with it
<vish> thorwil: snap!
<vish> thorwil: exactly , we know about the app , so it makes sense , but for someone not familiar with it might take it to be a background chooser..
<thorwil> vish: no, i just show the obvious and cheap after failing seeing once again that trying to be more sophisticated leads to a mess ;)
 * thorwil fails at sentence construction
<vish> :)
<daker> godbyk, ping
<c7p> hi jenkins
<jenkins> hey c7p
<jenkins> I don't suppose anyone here is registered as an android developer with google?
<jenkins> *registered with google
<c7p> so the e2 will be released tomorrow ?
<thorwil> jenkins: http://www.foopics.com/showfull/97ddf1478522eee7212bca5f6963789e
<jenkins> thorwil: cool some more ideas I like the last one on the bottom for the website. would you be able to do a stack of screenshots like in the original idea so that the corner is nearest the viewer? and put a camera on on top if that makes sense?
<jenkins> c7p: in theory i don't know how it is going
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: ^ ?
<thorwil> jenkins: i'm not quite following
<jenkins> no problem i will do a sktech
<thorwil> jenkins: please think "icon" and rip the word "add" out of your language for this here ;)
<ChrisWoollard> hello
<semioticrobotic> hi ChrisWoollard
<semioticrobotic> Are we all set for a release tomorrow
<semioticrobotic> ?
<ChrisWoollard> We are probably almost there
<jenkins> thorwil: I am :) I am probably the worst person to try and do this for, thanks for persevering, http://imagebin.org/109811 see the corner circled. rotate that so it is facing the viewer so at 45 degrees to its current position and put a camera on top like the one you used in http://www.foopics.com/showfull/97ddf1478522eee7212bca5f6963789e
<jenkins> ChrisWoollard: great!
<ChrisWoollard> I am awaiting a screenshot from humphreybc
<semioticrobotic> very good
<ChrisWoollard> I also think i could proof read a couple more chapters too. but nothing major
<jenkins> are there any un fixed bugs ?
<semioticrobotic> yeah, how's the bug situation?
<ChrisWoollard> let me have a look
<jenkins> 4 left by the looks of it
<ChrisWoollard> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/613266
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 613266 in ubuntu-manual "Mixed use of "applications" and "programs"" [Undecided,New]
<ChrisWoollard> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/609085
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 609085 in ubuntu-manual "Inappropriate NetworkManager screenshot" [Medium,New]
<jenkins> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/582361
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 582361 in ubuntu-manual "apt-get doesn't mention dist-upgrade" [Medium,Confirmed]
<thorwil> jenkins: i don't get how you want that rotation. but i'll log out soon. maybe i'll try a stack like that another day
<ChrisWoollard> there is also https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/561883
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 561883 in ubuntu-manual "missing tags" [Low,In progress]
<jenkins> ok thanks thorwil
<jenkins> I will try and draw one my self I should learn inkscape
<jenkins> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/562439
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 562439 in ubuntu-manual "doubling informations" [Medium,Confirmed]
<jenkins> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/584772
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 584772 in ubuntu-manual "File system structure needs descriptions" [Undecided,In progress]
<jenkins> thats all i can see
<ChrisWoollard> also it appears there are a bunch that are confirmed
<ChrisWoollard> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bugs?search=Search&field.status=Confirmed
<ChrisWoollard> bug 584772 is the one that ben is workin on. He promised he would do it tonight
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 584772 in ubuntu-manual "File system structure needs descriptions" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/584772
<semioticrobotic> the bug regarding apt-get might be a non-issue once most of the command line stuff has been removed
<ChrisWoollard> I will have a look at some of the bugs in an hour
<ChrisWoollard> that is for maverick though, not e2
<godbyk> I'll be running things through spell-check and trying to add some more index entries later today, too.
<godbyk> We should see if we can get those final bugs fixed, however.
<godbyk> Have you pestered Ben and Jason recently about the bugs they've committed to?
<semioticrobotic> ah, okay
<jenkins> http://imagebin.org/109820 another quickshot icon idea any thoughts vish?
<jenkins> or anyone
<Muscovy> I don't find that one too clear, wheras the others clearly say "screenshots".
<ChrisWoollard> i talked to ben earlier today
<jenkins> which one said screenshots to you Muscovy?
<Muscovy> Pretty much all the one with desktops of some sort.
<Muscovy> I'll go back and pick the ones I liked best.
<jenkins> thanks that would be good
<Muscovy> I like the top right one in http://www.foopics.com/showfull/97ddf1478522eee7212bca5f6963789e
<Muscovy> Or the bottom right.
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: I have talked to ben. He said he would do it tonight.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Okay, cool.
<jenkins> thanks Muscovy I am going to test in #ubuntu-uk to see what people think those icons imply the program does
<ChrisWoollard> I don't know about Jason though
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: Can you have a look at the outstanding bugs list to see if any are for you
<ChrisWoollard> Can you also look at the confirmed list. I think that might have been overlooked. https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bugs?search=Search&field.status=Confirmed
<godbyk> I went through the list of bugs targeted to e2 that weren't already fixed/committed/etc. and fixed a few yesterday.
<godbyk> I think the remaining ones may need a closer look.
<godbyk> The ones I see left are bugs 562439, 582361, 609085, 561883, and 584772.
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 562439 in ubuntu-manual "doubling informations" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/562439
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 582361 in ubuntu-manual "apt-get doesn't mention dist-upgrade" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/582361
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 609085 in ubuntu-manual "Inappropriate NetworkManager screenshot" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/609085
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 561883 in ubuntu-manual "missing tags" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/561883
<godbyk> Thanks, manualbot! :)
<ChrisWoollard> I will start to look at them in a while. I will change the status to in progress as I do them. So if anybody else wants to help. Feel free.
<godbyk> 'kay, thanks, ChrisWoollard!
<godbyk> I'm fixing 'lunch' right now, and then I have to mow the yard. But when I've finished with that, I'll be back to work on the manual.
<ChrisWoollard> lovely
<ChrisWoollard> thx
<jenkins> I always think yards are concrete :D
<godbyk> jenkins: I always think gardens contain flowers or vegetables.  :D
<jenkins> lol, i think of grass, flowers and vegetables in a garden
<daker> godbyk-android, ping
<sonicbadger> He might be mowing the lawn
<jenkins> no hes mowing the yard :P
<godbyk> daker: pong
<godbyk> eating lunch still.
<godbyk> daker: I got your email.
<daker> godbyk, oki
<sonicbadger> godbyk: RE: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/585909
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 585909 in ubuntu-manual "Indentation error "Copying part of a page", p.56" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<sonicbadger> Is that just missing a \noindent tag?
<godbyk> sonicbadger: If it's the continuation of a the same paragraph, then you can use \noindent at the beginning of the line to suppress indentation.
<sonicbadger> I am ChrisWoollard by the way. I am on another computer
<godbyk> If it's the start of a new paragraph, though, it should be indented.
<sonicbadger> Ok. I haven't read it yet so I don't know
<jenkins> come on people we need to think of a quickshot icon http://imagebin.org/109830 was suggested by popey and thorwil and vish have suggested some. any ideas for one are very much appreciated
<Muscovy> Here's one of mine that only a few people saw: http://www.flickr.com/photos/muscovyx/4886602265/
<Muscovy> The concept is to show and Ubuntu-ish desktop with a photo lens around it.
<Muscovy> The lens could do with work.
<Omega> That's what I thought too
<Omega> The lens
<jenkins> Muscovy: that might work,,,,,
<jenkins> I had not seen that
<Omega> Maybe a combination of yours and the other one
<Omega> http://www.foopics.com/showfull/97ddf1478522eee7212bca5f6963789e
<Omega> look at the last one
<jenkins> Muscovy: could I have the original of that please?
<Omega> But with a lens around the 'bigger desktop'
<Muscovy> Sure, what's a good site that'll allow svgs?
<jenkins> luke@ubuntu-manual.org is fine
<Muscovy> Ah right.
<Omega> did you guys hear about #ubuntu-tour :)
<jenkins> Omega: I like the idea of a lense around a desktop screen
<jenkins> nope
<jenkins> may be i got the wrong end of the stick is that not similar to the manual but in a different writing style?
<Muscovy> The big feature was interactivity.
<Muscovy> Like detecting when the software center is opened.
<Muscovy> Drawing arrows to point to stuff, etc.
<jenkins> thnaks for the e-mail Muscovy
<Muscovy> You're welcome.
<jenkins> would the arrow be on the screenshot or is this an app?
<Muscovy> An ap.
<jenkins> o right thats quite a cool idea, maybe it could be an accompaniment to the manual? I have no clue if that would work
<Muscovy> We were thinking refer to the manual as a more technical guide, and use the tour as a sort of scratch-the-surface process.
<jenkins> nice sounds good
<Muscovy> If the manual had a web edition, for instance, we could even do a "learn more" link for each topic covered.
<Muscovy> Or maybe the document viewer can open certain pages, I dunno.
<jenkins> that would work, i have added it to my saved channels, I don't think I have the skills or time to help unfortunalty
<Muscovy> Most of the work is in the Etherpad document.
<Muscovy> Basically we've just done concept stuff.
<jenkins> how on earth do you draw an arrow across someone's desktop? I mean there is all the the different display resolutions
<Muscovy> I was thinking just for panel stuff.
<Muscovy> We could get the resolution settings and work from that.
<brandonj> It probably wouldn't be 'across the desktop', just render a red arrow right where they have to go
<Muscovy> Wait, did I actually say "across"?
<brandonj> also, there'd be a picture in the app itself, so they know what to look for that way
<jenkins> o right I got the impression it would be very interactive with your desktop and fit in well a picture would make it easier
<Muscovy> I think the interacting between the tour and the desktop would realistically be various apps saying "yep, this stage is done" for launching, setup, etc.
<brandonj> in some cases I think there is an opportunity to get a bit more sophisticated than that
<jenkins> the only issue I can see with a picture is that people might think it is the real program. it was an argument used on the docs list for not using screenshots. As a user i see no problem but it may happen with a very new user, i could see my dad trying to click the picture. he removed the wireless keyboard/mouse dongle and plugged in his pen drive. he then spend 30 mins moaning the pc did not work. >:o . When i look
<jenkins> I prefer http://www.flickr.com/photos/muscovyx/4886367385/in/photostream/ i think.
<Muscovy> I imagine a screenshot would have a caption for that reason, if we include them.
<brandonj> Yes, the captions would be tailored to explain that
<jenkins> brandonj: i think they way I am thinking is impossible but it would be good if it said "click the applications menu" and a flashing dot (or other shape0 was over the real menu
<Muscovy> Ben said that logo seemed too OS/version specific.
<brandonj> jenkins: yes we were talking about that.  In some cases it might be possible, in other it might not be
<jenkins> Muscovy:  yea that is true but just change the panel colour and desktop background it would not make much difference
<Omega> Yeah, and we could also look at how OMG's doing it
<brandonj> Omega: they're using dbus to communicate w/ apps, which is what we should do I think
<jenkins> brandonj: it would be great if it could work like that, i have no clue how howeveer
<Muscovy> I don't think it'll be hard.
<Omega> There is one problem however, school starts tomorrow.
<Omega> And I have a thesis to write.
<Muscovy> :|
<Omega> I will still be around.
<Omega> But it will hurt my productivity.
<Muscovy> I'm lucky, I've got until September 7th or something.
<brandonj> We shouldn't rush it
<Omega> So, I won't be able to do much.
<Omega> I can still help organizationally.
<brandonj> I wouldn't target anything before 11.04 for a testing release
<Omega> I believe I'm fairly good at that.
<Omega> For sure.
<Omega> This isn't making 10.10
<brandonj> we all have school/work and stuff
<Omega> Although it would be cool, it's not viable.
<godbyk> RE: the ubuntu-tour stuff, you might look at this blueprint, too: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/design-m-meeting-ubuntu
<jenkins> well good luck with it, I am off to bed so night all
<godbyk> There were a couple sessions at UDS-M that discussed first-use scenarios a bit.
<semioticrobotic> night jenkins
<Muscovy> Gnight!
<godbyk> Anyway, I have to head out and mow the lawn/yard/garden/tall green stuff.
<semioticrobotic> I'm out, too.  I hope to check in around release time tomorrow.  :)  Take care, everyone.
<sonicbadger> When is release time tomoorow?
<godbyk> sonicbadger: Whenever I get to it. :-)
<sonicbadger> lol
<godbyk> Probably sometime in the evening my time (US/Central = GMT-0500).
<godbyk> back now.
<godbyk> mowing sucks.
<sonicbadger> i find it soothing
<sonicbadger> do you have any idea about https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/+bug/584504
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 584504 in ubuntu-manual "erroneous entry at start of Index ie first entry of "CD/DVD Creator, 27"" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<godbyk> not me. but I think the combination of allergies and loathsome trees gets me most. :)
<sonicbadger> Allergies are not good :(
<brandonj> sonicbadger: amen to that
<sonicbadger> I have it with a particular type of tree that you find everywhere in london.
<godbyk> sonicbadger: I think that page 27 may have been the wrong page number at one point, but I'm not really sure.
<godbyk> page 27 is correct at this point in time, at least.
<godbyk> I'm not sure precisely what I'm allergic to, but mowing grass seems to incite that allergy.  Normally, I'll take an allergy pill beforehand, but I forgot this time.
<godbyk> I only managed to mow the front yard, too. The back yard is still too wet and the grass is too tall.  (We've had major flooding the past week.)
<Muscovy> I think we'll need a #mowing soon.
<godbyk> sonicbadger: For \url, be sure to include the http:// protocol, as well. Otherwise they won't work.  (No clicky!)
<sonicbadger> I already noticed that
<sonicbadger> or are you refering to something i may have forgotton about
<godbyk> Your recent addition of the bugs.ubuntu-manual.org link.
<dutchie> \o/
<dutchie> local lug appears to be re-animating itself
<sonicbadger> I already fixed that locally. I just forgot to commit it
<sonicbadger> There we go.
<godbyk> No worries. Just thought I'd give you a heads-up.
<godbyk> Oh! I just struck me as to what the bug referred to: CD/DVD Creator isn't in alpha order in the index.
<godbyk> D'oh!
<sonicbadger> I noticed that then I checked it in the pdf it pointed to a weird local path on my pc
<sonicbadger> Why?
<godbyk> I think it's being sorted as \acronym{CD}....
<godbyk> I'll fix it in a moment.
<sonicbadger> That explains a lot
<godbyk> I think I'm also going to remove the "applications" and "command-line applications" entries+subentries from the index.  Opinions?
<sonicbadger> try it. We can always add it back if it doesn't work
<sonicbadger> or rather.... You :)
<godbyk> sonicbadger: Okay, done. Recompile and take a look at the index. Let me know what you think.
<sonicbadger> ok
<sonicbadger> The index is a lot shorter now
<godbyk> Yeah.
<sonicbadger> I guess that removed a lot of duplication
<godbyk> I can't imagine people would look up 'applications' in the index to try to find something useful -- at least not a list of applications.
<sonicbadger> I think i like it better this way.
<godbyk> Me, too.
<sonicbadger> Ok. That's fine then. That's +2 for, no objections. Case closed.
#ubuntu-manual 2011-08-11
<benonsoftware> Just wondering when will the meeting time be decided?
#ubuntu-manual 2011-08-13
<benonsoftware> I might JUST be able to make the meeting if I'm up
<benonsoftware> godbyk: Are you up?
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Hay :)
<godbyk> Hey, OutOfControl.
<godbyk> How's the website testing going?
<godbyk> (If I disappear it's because my Internet connection has been up and down all evening.)
<OutOfControl> godbyk: I'll send you a URL of a text file I built of the problems
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Did you get the message from the contact form?
<godbyk> Okay.
<godbyk> If that was the email I responded to, then yes.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Well then on the site I got a error message
<godbyk> Oh?
<OutOfControl> godbyk: You try it :)
<godbyk> What's the URL to the contact form?
<OutOfControl> godbyk: http://test.ubuntu-manual.org/contact
<OutOfControl> godbyk: The text file should be at http://nyuszika7h.dyndns.org/~benny/ubuntu-manual/ubuntu-manual.org.txt
<godbyk> Ah, I see the error you were talking about.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Yeah is that maybe Django is running in Debug mode?
<godbyk> Well, if it weren't running in debug mode it would just give an http 500 error instead.
<godbyk> so there's a bug that needs to be fixed in the code.
<OutOfControl> Who runs the servers for http://planet.ubuntu-manual.org ?
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Ah ok
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Oh and changing from English on the site doesn't do a thing
<godbyk> there probably aren't any translations of the test site yet.
<godbyk> or it may not be coded up yet. not sure which.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: I can't access the site now after changing
<OutOfControl> I get Language matching query does not exist.
<godbyk> probably because the translation files don't exist.
<godbyk> the planet site was hosted by flan, I think.
<godbyk> (not that we had many blogs there.)
<godbyk> or maybe it was dutchie.  dutchie, were you hosting the planet site?  I can't remember.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Clearing the cache and cookies fix test.ubuntu-manual.org
<OutOfControl> godbyk: A few weeks ago you said on the list the site was hacked, what happend?
<godbyk> I'm not sure how it was hacked yet.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: You said you were looking for more web devs I'm happy to help
<godbyk> But they had modified one of our php files to add some code to the end of each page.
<godbyk> The code was only added when the http referrer was Google's web crawler, though.
<godbyk> So when you visited the site with a web browser, you'd never notice
<OutOfControl> godbyk: How did they even get into the server?
<godbyk> But Google got irked because we were providing them with different content than we were providing regular visitors.
<godbyk> And since that goes against their policies, they removed us from their search index.
<OutOfControl> :)
<OutOfControl> godbyk:Are we back yet>
<godbyk> I've removed the offending code and checked that the permissions are correct.
<godbyk> I notified Google that we've resolved the issue and am now waiting for Google to get around to reviewing the updated site so they can include it in their search results again.
<OutOfControl> We are not back on Google yet :(
<godbyk> I'm not sure how they got into the server yet.
<godbyk> Could've been a bug in the php code or it could've been a permissions issue.
<OutOfControl> Yeah maybe
<godbyk> Yeah, they said it could take a few weeks for someone to get around to reviewing the site. :-/
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Yeah I remember it happend a while ago
<godbyk> Btw, the contact form did successfully send an email to me despite the error message.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: yeah I revieved your reply
<dutchie> yes, planet site was me i think
<OutOfControl> dutchie: Still up or no?
<godbyk> Ah, yeah. Looks like planet.ubuntu-manual.org is a CNAME pointing to planet.joshh.co.uk.
<godbyk> OutOfControl: So complain to dutchie. :-)
<OutOfControl> :)
<dutchie> if i had any sleep in the last 24 hours i'd do it
<dutchie> can it wait for this afternoon? :)
<godbyk> dutchie: no rush at all.
<godbyk> dutchie: OutOfControl is just auditing our websites to see what's working and what's not.
<OutOfControl> :)
<godbyk> we're making a TODO list.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: I see we are using Google Apps what version just asking?
<godbyk> OutOfControl: Lemme check.
<OutOfControl> ok no rush :)
<OutOfControl> dutchie: Your blogs down :)
<dutchie> yeah, i'll fix it as soon as i am no longer responsible for other people's servers and have had some sleep
<dutchie> i hate this shift
<OutOfControl> :)
<godbyk> OutOfControl: Not sure what version. I just transitioned everyone to the latest, though. :)
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Ok, wodnering who has access to it?
<godbyk> dutchie: I liked the night shift. Was usually quiet.
<dutchie> godbyk: having to switch in and out of it is not fun
<godbyk> OutOfControl: Mostly old-timers and big-wigs.  The primary editors and the like.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Ah ok
<godbyk> dutchie: That's certainly true.  I'm usually up 'til 5 a.m.  The other day I had to wake up for a 9 a.m. meeting, though.  Not fun.
<dutchie> a week of 6pm-2am then suddenly into 1am-9am is not pleasant
<OutOfControl> oh by the way if I can't make the meeting tomarrow will there be anyting importent?
<godbyk> OutOfControl: I think they're just going to discuss what needs to be written still and get people on task and working on things.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Well I want to get into a Aurthor and/or Editor Postition
<godbyk> dutchie: You could probably take a nap and no one would notice.  Just have the monitoring software ring the alarm if anything goes amiss. :)
<dutchie> mmm, i just did that by accident
<OutOfControl> godbyk: So you say its all in PHP now right?
<godbyk> OutOfControl: The current site is php.  The test site is python+django.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Would it be better to try out a CMS for it?
<OutOfControl> or best instead of better
<godbyk> OutOfControl: Possibly.  If we can find one that does everything we need.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Not Joomla not WP maybe Drupal?
<godbyk> OutOfControl: I don't know anything about modern CMSes, I'm afraid.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: I could help out with it if you would like
<OutOfControl> godI'll be back in 30min
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Sorry back now, so if you want me to help you set up Drupal I could help
<godbyk> OutOfControl: No problem.
<godbyk> OutOfControl: What language does Drupal use?
<OutOfControl> godbyk: MySQL and PHP
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Does the server have them?
<godbyk> OutOfControl: Yep.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Ok great then :)
<godbyk> OutOfControl: Can Drupal handle multilingual websites?  Can we use Launchpad to translate the Drupal site?
<OutOfControl> godbyk: I THINK so
<OutOfControl> godbyk: I have just found https://help.launchpad.net/DrupalPlugins don't know if they will be useful for use though
<godbyk> cool
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Its just for openid I think
<OutOfControl> godbyk: We would just need to make/find a theme that would fite
<OutOfControl> fit*
<OutOfControl> godbyk: So what do you think?
<godbyk> I don't know enough about Drupal to say if it'd work for us or not.
<godbyk> I also haven't thought about our site enough lately to know what features we need.
<OutOfControl> :)
<godbyk> Can Drupal do everything our existing site does?
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Yeah it should
<OutOfControl> godbyk: I'm having been brb in 45min
<godbyk> 'kay.
<thorwil> what i know about drupal is that it comes with some terribly convoluted multi-layered css
<thorwil> (though that might be true of many other platforms on that level, too)
<godbyk> thorwil: gee, that sounds fun.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Yep I'm back
<OutOfControl> godbyk: So what is your mind about Drupal?
<godbyk> OutOfControl: I don't really have enough info yet to have an informed opinion.
<godbyk> Perhaps at our next regular meeting we can discuss the features our website requires.
<godbyk> Then we can figure out if Drupal is a good candidate for it.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: Would that be the one in 12 hours time?
<godbyk> No. The one in 12 hours time is a special meeting.
<OutOfControl> godbyk: What is it about again?
<godbyk> They'll be discussing the writing that still needs to be done for the natty edition.
<godbyk> And organizing people to work on parts that are lagging behind.
<benonsoftware> godbyk: Sorry I'm back internet shutdown
<benonsoftware> godbyk: If I'm not at the meeting in 12 hours if they are looking for people for editor/aurthor I'm happy to help
<benonsoftware> godbyk: Still there>
<benonsoftware> ?
<OutOfControl> godbyk: I know at the moment a lot of other Ubuntu teams are using Drupal for there sites and you wouldn't guess it :)
<ChrisWoollard> evening all
<ChrisWoollard> Evening Rick
<rickfosb> Good evening Chris;  Printing a map for Kristen's return trip to university...
<rickfosb> was distracted;  How have you been
<ChrisWoollard> Good. I seem to have been busy / away quite a bit recently
<rickfosb> Hello Hannie
<ChrisWoollard> Hoi
<godbyk> brb
<hannie> hi rickfosb and godbyk
<hannie> and ChrisWoollard
<ChrisWoollard> o/
<godbyk> back now
<godbyk> hey, hannie
<ChrisWoollard> evening Godbyk
<hannie> rickfosb, can you give me a link to the shared spreadsheet, please
<godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard. How was your holiday?
<rickfosb> hannie: sure
<ChrisWoollard> Good thanks
<hannie> ChrisWoollard, hoe gaat het/how ae you?
<ChrisWoollard> A lovely trip to the Netherlands
<hannie> ah, lots of rain I heard ;)
<ChrisWoollard> Ik ben Goed
<rickfosb> Link to spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtkeORuPIMxsdGtWRXlvdHB4bktTNkF5LTNwWU5KQnc&hl=en_US&authkey=CNDambUJ
<hannie> rickfosb, thanks
<ChrisWoollard> There was a lot of rain but it only occuring in the eveing so it was fine
<ChrisWoollard> Who else are we expecting?
<Muscovy> Me. :)
<ChrisWoollard> Eveing Muscovy
<rickfosb> C7p was going to be here I thought
<Muscovy> Good mornterevening.
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<hannie> Bryan is out of town
<godbyk> last night, c7p told me: "i g2g, i'll go for this weekend to my village. So i guess i will be off for these 2 days. If i'm not present at the meeting time start the meeting"
<hannie> and Kartik?
<rickfosb> I dont know about Kartik; let mecheck the poll real quick.
<hannie> rickfosb, I have added some things to The Ubuntu Desktop page of the spreadsheet
<rickfosb> Kartik did not select this time; he might not have been available
<hannie> ok, let's start then
<rickfosb> Great.
<hannie> who is the chair?
<godbyk> I don't think there's an agenda.
<godbyk> It's more of an informal gathering. :)
<rickfosb> I'll take that;  Was going to keep the meeting very loose today
<rickfosb> What I'd like to do is to continue to divide the chapter  into small bytes
<ChrisWoollard> I assume there will be a status update for those that have not been around :)
<benonsoftware> Sorry I'm late
<rickfosb> benonsoftwary: glad you're here.
<benonsoftware> Yeah so whats happening now
<rickfosb> Hannie: on the update you just made, do you already have text?  Benonsoftware: just starting
<benonsoftware> Thanks
<hannie> rickfosb, I sent you the text on Nautilus
<hannie> The text in prologue is just a few lines which I still have to review
<rickfosb> Hannie: perfedt
<rickfosb> *perfect
<rickfosb> Team: an update
<hannie> It is not clear where we should refer to at the moment
<rickfosb> hannie?
<rickfosb> (i'll type an update in just a sec)
<hannie> rickfosb, I mean which chapter to refer to in Prologue
<hannie> rickfosb, go ahead, I'll talk about this later
<benonsoftware> Sorry :)
<rickfosb> hannie: ok.
<hannie> rickfosb, are you typing such an extensive update?
<benonsoftware> Just wondering on the email I revieved about the meeting, it said Desktopworking session if your looking for help I'll put my hand
<benonsoftware> up
<hannie> I think rick may have some computer problems...let's wait until he is back
<benonsoftware> Ok I'm fine
<hannie> ChrisWoollard, you're like a yoyo
<ChrisWoollard> Something went screwy with my connection to the web
<hannie> At this moment I am listening to the cry of baby owls in my attic
<hannie> They are crying for food. Mama brings them big, fat mice
 * benonsoftware is still tired
<hannie> hey, rickfosb2 back again
<godbyk> rickfosb2: the reincarnation of rickfosb. :)
<rickfosb2> sorry guys; internet fail!
<benonsoftware> :)
<hannie> np
<rickfosb2> I'm cloned :)
<hannie> hence 2
<rickfosb2> :)
<benonsoftware> ahh
<ChrisWoollard> That's weird I had that at exactly the same time
<hannie> and an ocean between the two of you
<rickfosb2> Well, what I had typed was that I've pushed minor text changes to the chapter;
<rickfosb2> (Al Gore got us)  Me for not being green... can't say why Chris was snagged ! :)
<ChrisWoollard> Maybe I was rioting
<hannie> Is there an overview of the chapter somewhere?
<rickfosb2> Changes to the chapter submitted by Kartik.  These changes re minor.  (Chris: ha!)
<benonsoftware> So (7:23:55 AM) benonsoftware: Just wondering on the email I revieved about the meeting, it said Desktopworking session if your looking for help I'll put my hand
<benonsoftware> (7:23:57 AM) benonsoftware: up
<rickfosb2> The most recent overview is the proposed outline in the Ubuntu Desktop tab
<hannie> ok, but can we download changes from somewhere?
<hannie> I want to see what changes others have made
<rickfosb2> OH!  Hey I can take the most recent from launchpad and place it on google docs... but I don't want to get too far away from our souce code management
<hannie> ok
<rickfosb2> Here: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtkeORuPIMxsdGtWRXlvdHB4bktTNkF5LTNwWU5KQnc&hl=en_US&authkey=CNDambUJ
<benonsoftware> Thanks you
<rickfosb2> The Desktop tab. starting at row 22
<benonsoftware> Ok
<rickfosb2> IF we know who is working the outline (one sub section per row), we can assign the name
<rickfosb2> I'll referee the work
<rickfosb2> Since we had problems, I picked up Editor role for this section
<benonsoftware> So are there any postitions open for me or not?
<rickfosb2> yes sir
<benonsoftware> rickfosb2: Yay which one?
<hannie> rickfosb2, should lenses be added
<rickfosb2> Ben,  Due to the time shift between us, I'd like for you to look at the managing windows section.  We can work through that via email ; if you don't have bzr working.
<hannie> New in Unity
<hannie> Lenses are a specialized way of viewing your applications and documents.  By default, there are two lenses already on the Unity launcher; theyâre located near the bottom, just above the trash can.  The first is for Applications, the other for Files & Folders.  Clicking on one of them reveals that lens in the Dash.
<rickfosb2> Hannie:  I think so, I was reading the emai
<ChrisWoollard> Shouldn't Lenses be referenced in the Understanding the Desk top Chapter?
<benonsoftware> rickfosb2: Ok thats fine
<hannie> ChrisWoollard, you refer to line 24?
<benonsoftware> So what part windows?
<ChrisWoollard> yes
<benonsoftware> sorry but what do you mean windows part?
<rickfosb2> benonsoftware:  you and i will work out what needs to be in that subsection; row 25
<rickfosb2> I will need to coordinate 25 and 26 with c7p and hannie
<benonsoftware> rickfosb2: Ok good
<hannie> daker, hi, how are you?
<rickfosb2> Chris:  I believe you are correct in the placement of lenses
<hannie> rickfosb2, c7p has already done the "Browsing..." bit. I lost my text after my computer crashed
<rickfosb2> ok; worried about you on that.  I'll get text from him to 'merge'.
<hannie> btw, I prefer to say "Nautilus file manager" instead of "Nautilus file browser" because nautilus is more than a browser
<benonsoftware> rickfosb2: I'm using bzr over a ssh but not thats not working :)
<ChrisWoollard> How much has not actually been commited yet? What is outstanding
<rickfosb2> Chriswoollard:  most of what we are talking about today has not been committed. AND any screen shots needed to support this section have yet to be taken.
<hannie> Line 30: workspaces are still used, applets work a bit different but should be described )imho)
<rickfosb2> godbyk has provided a short tutorial for me.  So if hannie, benonsoftware, and the others can do a screenshot, I can help to get it built.
<hannie> a screenshot of what?
<rickfosb2> If you need a 'visual'... like lenses, panel, .. etc
<ChrisWoollard> Wouldn't it be worth getting people to commit their work even if it is a work in progress.
<rickfosb2> I would agree wholeheartedly;  I have accepted a txt file when a writer can't or has problems using bzr
<hannie> by "committing" you mean send our work to rickfosb2, who is the editor?
<rickfosb2> or like hannie: crashes, rolls, and burns the drive
<hannie> ha
<ChrisWoollard> I mean commiting the work into bzr so it can be seen / editted by others.
<rickfosb2> ChrisWoollard:  agree..., when I get something, i pull, cmmit and push as soon as possible
<ChrisWoollard> Then things can be editted, Glossary items can be linked to. etc
<hannie> can I push the whole chapter to bzr even if I only have added a small part
<rickfosb2> I would hope everyone is doing that
<rickfosb2> yes
<benonsoftware> Ok
<rickfosb2> hannie: yes
<hannie> ah, I didn't know that
<rickfosb2> hannie: just keep your changes in context... that is, if you intend to delete text, do so, it will be removed from the chapter... if you leave a section above your change or below, it will not be affected
<ChrisWoollard> Do we know when all the unity changes will be done?
<rickfosb2> chriswoollard, and all:  c7p has written a sub section on alternate apps (empathy vs ms outook, etc.)  do we have a preference on where we want those applications to be discussed?
<hannie> We did discuss that in another meeting, but I can't remember what we decided
<benonsoftware> SoftwareÂ Management maybe
<ChrisWoollard> I am not sure
<rickfosb2> ChrisWoollard: to your question on unity, do you see that as spread out among several of the rows?  or adding a Unity subsection to address it as a topic beyond the prologue?
<rickfosb2> I think we were trying to address the individual 'how to's' with an eye to unity
<ChrisWoollard> I would see Unity as being covered in The Ubuntu Desktop -> Understanding the Desktop
<ChrisWoollard> Posibily renaming "Understanding the Desktop" to "Understanding the Unity Desktop"
<hannie> Yes, so do I. In the Prologue we can refer to The Ubuntu Desktop chapter
<benonsoftware> anyone here gets a problem getting the manual from bzr?
<hannie> Alarm bell: two minutes left ;)
<benonsoftware> 1 for me :)
<rickfosb2> "Understanding the Unity Desktop":  I like it... but wil it be necessary in future version?
<rickfosb2> Benonsoftware:  Shoot me an email and we will work the time zone problem
<rickfosb2> We'll get you started
<benonsoftware> rickfosb2: Ok email you now?
<rickfosb2> as soon as you have a moment;  I'll respond shortly
<ChrisWoollard> Not sure. Only time will tell
<benonsoftware> Ok I'll email you in 5-10 min
<rickfosb2> ChrisWoollard: if ok, I'll update the chapter name then.  Should help us to keep focused on the idea of the section
<rickfosb2> Understanding the Unity Desktop will be the new chapter name
<ChrisWoollard> We could always change it again in future releases. Unity was the big thing for this release though
<rickfosb2> agreed
<hannie> rickfosb2, don't forget that manu people still use Gnome classic
<hannie> *many
<rickfosb2> As soon as c7p gets back, I'll get him to push his changes and we can get caught up
<rickfosb2> hannie:  agreed...,  I need three desktops to keep up with my tinkering with gnome/unity
<rickfosb2> (never could get the hang of kde)
<hannie> rickfosb2, have you already pushed the text I sent you (Nautilus) to the branch?
<ChrisWoollard> Maybe we should take the current "Understanding the Desktop" chapter and adapt it for the classic desktop. then maybe have it as an appendix
<rickfosb2> no;  I have not seen it?  or did I miss it?
 * benonsoftware has sent the email
<rickfosb2> hannie: I 'll go look through my inbox:   did you send to rick@ubuntu or rickfosb@gmail
<rickfosb2> ?
<hannie> rickfosb2, you may have missed it. I sent it to you a few days ago, But I will push it myself as soon as I have installed Bazaar again
<benonsoftware> rickfosb2: the ubuntu-manual email
<rickfosb2> ok benonsoftware, thanks
<benonsoftware> Thats fine
<hannie> Fosburgh Rick <rickfosb@gmail.com>
<rickfosb2> hannie: I'll go back... I am sorry if I missed it!!  If I find it, I'll let you know asap
<rickfosb2> perfect!
<hannie> oki
<hannie> sent on thursday
<rickfosb2> I'll get it up tonigh
<rickfosb2> *tonight
<rickfosb2> final alarm.  any other questions?
<rickfosb2> (I still have some time left)
<hannie> no questions from me at the moment
<benonsoftware> I might have some just wait a min
<rickfosb2> have a great evening hannie!
<hannie> thanks, and see you all soon!
<rickfosb2> ok benonsoftware.. we''ll let the conversation die down abit
<benonsoftware> Ok
<rickfosb2> Anyone else?  if not, thanks for joining!  ChrisWoollard, I'll round up the missing people/pieces and get an update to this section.
<rickfosb2> Obviously, missed hannie's email to me.. probably sitting in a string between she, john and i
<rickfosb2> *me
<benonsoftware> :)
<ChrisWoollard> ok
<rickfosb2> Benonsoftware:  Question?
<ChrisWoollard> I need to go. I have to get up early tomorrow to go to Oggcamp
<benonsoftware> rickfosb2: So when is the next release date for the manual?
<ChrisWoollard> See you all next time
<rickfosb2> chriswoollard: lucky you!!!! have fun there
<benonsoftware> ChrisWoollard: see you
<ChrisWoollard> whens the next meeting?
<rickfosb2> Sat/Sun probably near same time; I'll have a poll out tonight
<benonsoftware> Yah I might come again :)
<benonsoftware> rickfosb2: So when is the next release for ubuntu-manual?
<ChrisWoollard> Lovely. See you then
<rickfosb2> :)
<rickfosb2> Benonsoftware:  Question?
<benonsoftware> rickfosb2: So when is the next release for ubuntu-manual?
<rickfosb2> hmm, thought we had the milestones in the spreadsheet... let me send you another link
<benonsoftware> I have the spreadsheet open
<rickfosb2> ben:  this one might answer your bzr questions: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LDAyOVGMOLvsMTef3dTE3zt9q-gQY_-NetMKfZ6yM2Q/edit?hl=en_US&authkey=CLynx-cH
<rickfosb2> now let me get the milestones
<benonsoftware> ok :)
<rickfosb2> https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ar0Z6vOO38EydERxaWhGTkU2NTVDU2pxYXNHWWR1MlE&hl=en_US&authkey=CNGSvgk
<rickfosb2> Milestones are in that sheet; I've not updated authors in there yet
<benonsoftware> Thats ok
<rickfosb2> godbyk has been quiet
<benonsoftware> So next month
<rickfosb2> yes
<rickfosb2> so the subsection that you will be working on'
<benonsoftware> Yes
<rickfosb2> managing windows:  Take a look at the chapter as it exists today.  you will need to figure out how to manage windows under unity.  I haven't reread that section recently, but i suspect,
<rickfosb2> that you will need to discuss how to raise, lower, find, move from present desktop, any window in the unity world
<rickfosb2> i can help with that
<benonsoftware> Ok
<rickfosb2> its mostly a how to for the ubuntu novice; and in this case, any ubuntu user that might need some help finding things...
<benonsoftware> Nice :)
<rickfosb2> in my reply email, I'l post some text and page numbers that may help get you started...
<benonsoftware> Thanks
<rickfosb2> since we are all working in the same chapter. we just need to 'not' type in someone elses sub chapter
<rickfosb2> :)
<benonsoftware> How are the translations going?
<benonsoftware> :)
<rickfosb2> they can't start until we get this finished;  I think hannie was wanting to get moving as we complete chapters...
<benonsoftware> :)
<rickfosb2> ben remind me; you are 1/2 way round the world right?
<benonsoftware> rickfosb2: Problery Melbourne, Australua
<benonsoftware> Australia*
<rickfosb2> yes sir; I can almost pronounce that word!  (we've seen enought Australian actors here.)  :)
<rickfosb2> ok;  I just wanted to be sure i had the right Ben!
<rickfosb2> Ok if no other quesitons, I'll get busy on the reply to your email...  see if that committing text document answers your bzr questions?
<rickfosb2> How to Commit Code by godbyk is a great place to learn... its the one i still use
<benonsoftware> I think that is the one you emailed me when I first emailed jobs@ubuntu-manual :)
<rickfosb2> benonsoftware: probably so; I try to ensure that everyone who will be writing has a copy of that and/or the styleguide
<benonsoftware> yeah
<rickfosb2> Ok; going to get busy on the reply; and find hannie's code to push...   see you next week!  (and look for my email with instructions)
<benonsoftware> See you :)
<rickfosb2> u2
#ubuntu-manual 2011-08-14
<issyl0> Grrr!
<issyl0> I'm so annoyed that I missed the working session for the desktop section...
<issyl0> I've just read the scrollback, but if someone could more completely update me,I'd appreciate it.  I'd like to stay involved still.
#ubuntu-manual 2013-08-05
<thorwil> godbyk: hi! 13.04 german double pushed
<CarstenG> Hey at all
