#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-16
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:irc.freenode.net] : Vote for the next meeting date - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay_> hey guys
<lizardking> hello artnay
<lizardking> I'm lizardking
<artnay_> hey
<lizardking> i read your private message
<lizardking> did you view my post?
<artnay_> I was finish my job here and heading home
<artnay_> sure I did
<artnay_> +ing
<lizardking> what's + ing?
<lizardking> :D
<lizardking> are you going away?
<artnay_> finishing, it's a typo day today
<artnay_> I was
<artnay_> but anyways, here's the deadl
<artnay_> deal
<artnay_> if you want, you could join artwork team and help us
<artnay_> because you seem to be interested in that matter
<artnay_> but it seems that community has to focus on three things
<lizardking> ok
<artnay_> AUC (art.ubuntu.com), wiki pages and artwork packaging
<lizardking> what are theese three things?
<artnay_> canonical is most likely going to do the default dapper theme
<lizardking> I downladed the ubuntu-artowork.deb in Dapper
<lizardking> they use Etiquette icons..
<lizardking> Is the dapper theme quite reay?
<lizardking> ready
<artnay_> that is a question without an answer from us
<artnay_> actually we don't know much about it
<lizardking> ok
<artnay_> but we can package our own artwork, community artwork, as debian packages
<artnay_> and offer them via apt
<artnay_> so whatever you do, it's useful and appreciated
<lizardking> but the artwork team works for the Canonical or are different community?
<artnay_> we'd like to work in a tighter relationshop with canonical (afaik)
<lizardking> so there are two tread of developing artwork?
<artnay_> we don't even know what canonical is doing with artowkr
<lizardking> you and canonical team?
<artnay_> there has been rumours of hired experts doing the official icon set etc.
<artnay_> but those rumours haven't been confirmed by canonical
<lizardking> ok! cool official icons!
<artnay_> therefore this whole process is quite disorganized, we don't know which projects we should focus on
<lizardking> the project you say are this?  1)AUC (art.ubuntu.com), 2) wiki pages and 3) artwork packaging
<artnay_> but if you want to participate in a creation of debian packages, you're most welcome to do that
<artnay_> yeah, AUC and wiki are top priorities
<artnay_> but there's not people contributing to this stuff
<artnay_> at least not many active ones
<lizardking> which stuff?
<artnay_> organizing artwork team and its priorities
<lizardking> ok
<artnay_> if you look at the wiki, it's quite a disaster
<artnay_> we would like to have /ArtWork as a main page, and it could have guides etc.
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<lizardking> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<lizardking> i noticed
<artnay_> that page has some information
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoList
<artnay_> and there are some topics to be discussed
<lizardking> So what wil be my deal?
<artnay_> feel free to edit it cause we don't have much editors yet :)
<artnay_> how would you like to help, I guess that's the question
<lizardking> yes :D
<artnay_> anyways, I'm on overtime already
<lizardking> do you must go?
<artnay_> I'll do some updates later today
<lizardking> here?
<artnay_> yeah, I'll stop by the nearest grocery shop and then I'll go home
<artnay_> it will take something like 30 minutes
<artnay_> so if you're still present, we can discuss more then
<lizardking> need an account to modify the wiki page?
<artnay_> yep
<lizardking> ok
<artnay_> anyways, half an hour
<artnay_> bye
<lizardking> So we can meet here in 1h e half?
<lizardking> did you use IM?
<lizardking> i have google talk icq msn yahoo
<lizardking> are you still there?
<artnay_> half an hour... :)
<lizardking> quit
<artnay_> hey
<artnay_> LizardKing_it: 
<iAcAliasLizardKi> we
<artnay_> it only took 23 minutes
<artnay_> but you were gone already
<iAcAliasLizardKi> i registred to irc
<iAcAliasLizardKi> but...
<iAcAliasLizardKi> which is my nick?
<artnay_> http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=13254
<iAcAliasLizardKi> lizardking_it ora iacaliaslizarking?
<artnay_> oh, sorry
<artnay_> which one did you register? :o
<artnay_> try changing your nick using command /nick insteryournickhere
<LizardKing_it> now i relog in
<LizardKing_it> wait
<iAcAliasLizardKi> hello
<iAcAliasLizardKi> why my nick si tokenized?
<iAcAliasLizardKi> lizardkiNG
<artnay_> there's no need reconnect in order to change your nick. is that the one you registered?
<iAcAliasLizardKi> too long?
<iAcAliasLizardKi> yes
<iAcAliasLizardKi> is this
<artnay_> 15 is pretty common limit
<iAcAliasLizardKi> ah ok
<iAcAliasLizardKi> :'(
<iAcAliasLizardKi> :D
<iAcAliasLizardKi> how can I change?
<iAcAliasLizardKi> I'm not at all a irc guru
<iAcAliasLizardKi> I use in a past time
<iAcAliasLizardKi> but i remember few options
<artnay_>  /nick newnick
<iAcAliasLizardKi> ok
<LizardKing_it> and now is this my registerd nick?
<artnay_> if it requires you to identify, then it is
<LizardKing_it> how can identify?
<artnay_> you can change it if registered a wrong one
<artnay_>  /msg nickserv idenfity yourpassword
<LizardKing_it> >NickServ< identify ****
<LizardKing_it> -NickServ- The nickname [LizardKing_it]  is not registered
<artnay_> so you probably registered the other one
<LizardKing_it> yes I register iacalias Lizardking
<LizardKing_it> (how you should have understand I'm from Italy)
<artnay_> you can't have spaces in your nickname
<iAcAliasLizardKi> now I'm with the registred one
<iAcAliasLizardKi> how can I change the registerd one?
<artnay_> hmm?
<artnay_> identify first, then /nick registerednick
<iAcAliasLizardKi> Im already identify
<artnay_> then just change your nick
<iAcAliasLizardKi> ok
<LizardKing_it> ok
<LizardKing_it> now should be works
<LizardKing_it> thanks in advace..
<artnay_> it's not required after all, you just can't send /msgs without registering
<LizardKing_it> did you see my new privare message?
<artnay_> no, I didn't get any
<artnay_> oh, you meant Ubuntuforums?
<LizardKing_it>  /msg NickServ REGISTER slucia
<LizardKing_it> ops
<LizardKing_it> :D
<LizardKing_it> yes I mean ubuntuforums
<artnay_> I did get that one
<LizardKing_it> ok now i post here
<LizardKing_it> Message  	Sent Date  	Read Date  	
<LizardKing_it> IM
<LizardKing_it> Sent to: artnay
<LizardKing_it> Unread
<artnay_> I confirmed it
<LizardKing_it> I was asking you about IM
<LizardKing_it> when i'm at the PC i always use IM
<LizardKing_it> do you have one?
<artnay_> yep, I've had ICQ UIN since -98 and MSN account for some months now
<LizardKing_it> ok can you give me this account
<artnay_> but I don't use them much, actually I never log in to ICQ and MSN is only because of girls
<LizardKing_it> so I add in
<LizardKing_it> eheh girls!
<artnay_> although I converted my gf and nowadays she uses IRC ;)
<LizardKing_it> ok so does not matters if you log in never
<LizardKing_it> Hnn
<LizardKing_it> :D
<LizardKing_it> I'm trying to convert my one to use Linux ;)
<LizardKing_it> do you come from Finland right?
<LizardKing_it> how old are you?
<artnay_> that's something I wasn't able to do, mainly because she somewhat hates ubuntu
<LizardKing_it> why hates ubunut?
<LizardKing_it> :'(
<artnay_> because I spend to much time with Ubuntu... ;)
<LizardKing_it> eheeh
<LizardKing_it> mee too
<LizardKing_it> also my grilfriend says that I pass to time to PC
<LizardKing_it> I'm studying informatic engeenering
<LizardKing_it> at www.ing.unifi.it
<LizardKing_it> University of Florence
<artnay_> well boys are boys and many ubuntu users are fanboys :)
<LizardKing_it> do U know Florence?
<artnay_> yep, never been there though
<LizardKing_it> if you want more information about me http://www.iacopomasi.net
<artnay_> and I'm from .fi, 22 in couple of months
<LizardKing_it> my friend went in finland last year in Tampere
<LizardKing_it> I'm 22 old
<LizardKing_it> too
<artnay_> forget about tampere...
<artnay_> no, actually I guess it's good place to live at
<LizardKing_it> my friend went there with ERASMUS project
<artnay_> what's that?
<LizardKing_it> To go to study in other Europe cities
<artnay_> The Erasmus Project is a program designed to bring together sophomore students from the College of Arts and Sciences, the School of Business and Management, and the School of Nursing in a special enrichment program. 
<LizardKing_it> this is a university project
<LizardKing_it> search erasums university
<LizardKing_it> what do you study about?
<LizardKing_it> now I'm writing my lower degree
<LizardKing_it> I will talk on it in April
<artnay_> I did study computer science, but I sort of stopped that since I ran out of money
<LizardKing_it> I'm quite excited
<artnay_> had to find a full-time job
<LizardKing_it> ok I understand you
<LizardKing_it> do you have a website?
<artnay_> only /
<artnay_> since they decided to remove my account, thus leaving a ghost client running there (artnay)
<artnay_> now I'm just waiting shell. to crash )
<LizardKing_it> Sincerly I' haven't understand a lot pardon!
<artnay_> if you do /whois nickname, you find some information on the user
<LizardKing_it> ok
<artnay_> so artnay's host is shell.evtek.fi, it's running on computer called shell. since they deleted my account as I left from school, they left my irc process running
<LizardKing_it> i noticed
<LizardKing_it> rtnay_ so artnay's host is shell.evtek.fi, it's running on computer called shell. since they deleted my account as I left from school, they left my irc process running
<artnay_> and I wasn't able to do anything because *nix wasn't able to find my account :(
<artnay_> I was there, ssh'd into their machine, but I couldn't even do simple "ps" :(
<LizardKing_it> http://www.evtek.fi/ is this the main site?
<artnay_> it is
<LizardKing_it> eheh
<LizardKing_it> I understand
<artnay_> nrj, wtf is that. absolutely terrible
<LizardKing_it> :|
<LizardKing_it> i go a minute down then we talk
<LizardKing_it> bye
<artnay_> like they couldn't do any worse, co-operating with this pop propaganda radio nrj... oh god.
<artnay_> hi again
<LizardKing_it> hi again
<LizardKing_it> now I'm going out
<LizardKing_it> to have a strong Beer :D
<LizardKing_it> We can meet here tomorrow to talk about what I'm going to modify or packagin debs..
<artnay_> LizardKing_it: sure
<artnay_> so, should we just state that let's forget the default artwork for dapper and let's focus on a) AUC b) wiki c) debian packages
<artnay_> I'm currently updating wiki and this is still an issue
<artnay_> ping guys
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal - take a look at that
<artnay_> = Support places = should there be one "support place"
<artnay_> it would be neat to have guides under /ArtWork/UbuntuArtWork/ProjectnameUbuntuArtwork
<artnay_> but it means duplicates... is it possible to do cross-linking easily?
<artnay_> hey lukacu
<lukacu> hey
<lukacu> how is the artteam today?
<lukacu> :)
<artnay_> silent :)
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<lukacu> artnay_: ArtworkTodoProposal is going to be Artwork page ?
<artnay_> I guess it may have some of the structure that the final /ArtWork page will have
<artnay_> ok, I updated these pages: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamVoting https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay_> Next thing... ArtworkTodoList
<artnay_> but I really don't know what to type
<lukacu> :)
<artnay_> all I've heard is rumours and devs saying something unofficially
<artnay_> and those statements are against what's being said in here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamIntroduction
<lukacu> about what? artwork that is to be done?
<artnay_> so what shall we do? :)
<artnay_> I really wouldn't like to spread any FUD
<lukacu> any news about AUC?
<lukacu> upgrading and that...
<artnay_> well they acknowledge the problem
<artnay_> and it's currently being solved
<artnay_> I think klepas has more information on that
<lukacu> well .. he promised me an email a week ago ... nothing so far :(
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArtworkWebsite
<artnay_> that page should cover all information related to AUC
<artnay_> but I'm afraid that it doesn't
<artnay_> lukacu: great, you voted
<lukacu> :)
<lukacu> well .. its my duty as a member of artteam ;)
<lukacu> im going to spain on february 4th so i really prefer 2nd
<artnay_> oh, how long will you stay there?
<lukacu> 20 days or so ... just a visit
<lukacu> artnay_: i would really like to help you with the wiki but i have a few exams in the next two weeks ...
<artnay_> no prob, we try to get something done
<artnay_> ok, I guess I'll leave wiki for now
<artnay_> we need to have a serious discussion before any huge changes
<artnay_> it seems that artwork team is pretty dead :(
<artnay_> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2006-January/thread.html
<lukacu> lol
<artnay_> how come there's no activity anywhere?
<lukacu> dont know ... because there are no goals and no meaning
<artnay_> yep
<artnay_> but if we belive what has been said, there are three priorities
<artnay_> I've heard community won't have input for dapper
<artnay_> so that pretty much leaves us to AUC, wiki and community artwork
<artnay_> but community artwork seems to be really problematic
<lukacu> people come to ML and say: i am here, what is to be done ... and then everything is silent
<artnay_> people don't use IRC that much, not at least the members of artwork team
<artnay_> and ML is pretty dead, too
<artnay_> I see more activism on Ubuntuforums
<lukacu> yeah ... the forums ... but that is not official art team conversation area i guess
<artnay_> nope, but some members are only reachable from there or by mail
<artnay_> so we have a communication problem here
<artnay_> and we're without goals
<artnay_> I'm not on the good mood, sorry. I should stfu
<lukacu> :)
<artnay_> we have a communication problem between members and between canonical
<lukacu> no problem ... i am also not in a good mood 
<artnay_> that pretty much prevents us from doing anything
<lukacu> i agree
<artnay_> like will dapper have a photo or something what has been in previous versions
<artnay_> that's something what branding guide should state
<artnay_> without any hint we're powerless
<artnay_> as a background, I meant....
<lukacu> what about kubuntu?
<artnay_> riddell said it will most probably have 99 % the KDE defaults
<artnay_> as there's really no Kubuntu artwork team
<artnay_> I don't know would the situation be same if there were more people interested
<artnay_> but still, there's usplash, kdm, background etc.
<artnay_> lots of things
<artnay_> and we have no clue what to do
<artnay_> and that isn't good :)
<artnay_> well, I guess I've whined enough
<lukacu> :D
<artnay_> stfu and do some work
<artnay_> ...that was meant for me ;)
<lukacu> lol
<artnay_> is red hat paying to andyfitz?
<artnay_> I guess they are
<artnay_> but still that shouldn't be a problem
<artnay_> I guess some of you guys don't read forums, but take a look at this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=88477&page=11
<artnay_> the reason I asked that red hat thingie was that I was arguing with bvc
<artnay_> starting from #105
<artnay_> I guess he's frustrated as well
<lukacu> i agree with bvc on this about Humility: "Seems like it takes Andy so long, the freshness dies off and something new is desired, or something."
<lukacu> it is too much for one man to handle ... 
<lukacu> well .. that is my opinion
<artnay_> yeah, there wasn't much information what was happening with those projects
<artnay_> true, therefore we should help him
<artnay_> have a page like tango project has and list icons there
<lukacu> yeah ...ive tried at first (HumulityIcons wiki page is my work) ...
<artnay_> I liked etiquette and hum* too
<artnay_> although there were some things I really disliked (but that's normal, we all can't like the same things)
<artnay_> for example the device icons looked too strange to me
<lukacu> i still think that humility can be resurrected as a comunity project
<artnay_> I think we should use somewhat standard metaphors (like for USB devices etc.)
<artnay_> lukacu: so do I
<lukacu> great :)
<artnay_> the last versions of tango have had some really pleasnt surprises
<artnay_> but it's a bit too colourful for me, meaning that red roof on home icon and that green on waste basket
<artnay_> but overally they're doing great work
<artnay_> and so we could adopt some of their stuff, change colours and that way have a unique ubuntu icon set
<lukacu> maybe :)
<artnay_> that's what I've been hoping
<lukacu> some team work ...
<artnay_> there's not much currently )
<artnay_> let's face it, artwork team didn't success for breezy. I wouldn't like the same happen when dapper hits the stores :)
<artnay_> as mark has said, dapper should be the polished version. I guess this means graphics as well
<lukacu> mostly graphical ... that is what impresses users
<lukacu> but i am afraid that they will just hire some pros to do that ... its sad :(
<artnay_> no it's not, it's better than nothing. :)
<artnay_> it's sad that we haven't been able to get organized so we could actually get something done 
<lukacu> well yeah ... but how about encourage community and actually comunicating with the team
<artnay_> what can I say? that would be great
<lukacu> perhaps i just dont see the whole picture
<artnay_> neither do I
<artnay_> although I'd like too se it
<lukacu> me too
<artnay_> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=115761
<artnay_> people want to help, but they just don't know how
<lukacu> and neither do we :D
<artnay_> at least we're trying to get some organization :)
<artnay_> as long as there's no official statement and wiki stays in the current shape, people have no clue what to do
<artnay_> we've requested the branding guide a few times but we haven't received any mails
<artnay_> but at least we're building wiki
<artnay_> it needs to have the vital information so everyone could get the whole picture
<artnay_> I remember when I got into this
<artnay_> at least we now have some sort of centralized wiki page :o
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-17
<artnay_> but there seems to be only 4-5 people building it occasionally
<lukacu> it is what remains of the team
<artnay_> remember the meeting when we tried to get people to help with different *buntus?
<artnay_> with wiki pages
<artnay_> I guess Ubuntu and Edubuntu have staff behind them, but Kubuntu and Xubuntu didn't have any
<artnay_> Riddell doesn't have time to keep it up-to-date and
<artnay_> that I understand
<artnay_> damn cat
<artnay_> jumped on the keypad
<lukacu> :D
<artnay_> and there's no use for wiki if it's outdated
<artnay_> so we agree on many things, right?
<lukacu> yes ... i think we all agree ... the question is who is willing to help
<artnay_> actually I invited lizardking (the last link I provided) and he was willing to help
<artnay_> he came to this channel and we had a chat
<lukacu> i saw it in the log
<artnay_> oh
<artnay_> anyways, if we get enough motivated people to work on artwork before the end of january, we could actually make a difference
<artnay_> I guess many were frustrated as not much happened before or after breezy
<artnay_> many members of artwork team
<lukacu> yes ... many have joined in june ... and then almost no activity for months
<artnay_> I guess the deadline for artwork will be somewhere in mid-march
<artnay_> that doesn't leave much time
<artnay_> I remember that there were a deadline before breezy
<artnay_> but now as I look at the schedule, it doesn't even mention artwork
<artnay_> although ArtworkTeamIntroduction says this: 
<artnay_> The [WWW]  Dapper Release Schedule does not yet include a reference to the ArtworkDeadline, but when it will the The Artwork Team must respect this deadline.
<lukacu> we will lose most of the time with finding out what we can do i think
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<artnay_> no, someone should say what we should/must do
<artnay_> get the goals set
<artnay_> this doesn't look too promising yet
<lukacu> no, not at all
<artnay_> well Andy is supposed to reveal his icons set on the 23rd at LCA
<artnay_> that will be a milestone
<artnay_> typosss
<artnay_> there is one that makes me a bit scared
<artnay_> I assume canonical is following CoC
<lukacu> but that is not artteam work, community work ... he just happens to be in the team ... thats my opinion
<artnay_> and it says "but at least keep the outside world informed of your work, and publish your work in a way that allows outsiders to test, discuss and contribute to your efforts."
<artnay_> but still I haven't found much graphics improvements in dapper (running it atm)
<artnay_> lukacu: well at least he has a goal
<artnay_> something we all should have
<lukacu> yes ... but we cannot set our goals ... for ubuntu i mean :)
<artnay_> no, that's something the whole community should be heard of
<artnay_> but still mark has the final word
<artnay_> veto
<artnay_> I mean something should be changed in dapper. most of the critique ubuntu has received is because of the brown theme
<lukacu> yes ... thats why it is better that others set the goals than to get your work rejected later
<artnay_> while I think brown is nice, the experience that user gets isn't
<artnay_> lukacu: volvoguy has asked for goals in June, no word. I've sent a few mails, no reply
<artnay_> and I guess many others have too
<artnay_> so we have a communication problem. mhz he would discuss about that in CC
<artnay_> but the CC meeting was already held and there were no word of that (I read the logs as well :>)
<artnay_> but hey... let's try to into contact with canonical and ask their plans and what do they want
<artnay_> I for one think that's something essential, we can't really do much before we know such things
<artnay_> can you see I'm a bit tired? when I left words out of sentences and have lots of typos in them, it's a hint. go and zZz!
<artnay_> s/left/leave
<lukacu> :D
<artnay_> I told you! :D
<artnay_> well I said what I had on my mind
<lukacu> i am afraid i have not said all thats on my mind but i am tired ... some sleep would be nice
<artnay_> "me too!"
<artnay_> anyways, I'm going to bed now
<artnay_> it was nice to chat with you
<artnay_> I'm really not on the mood of having monologs here :)
<lukacu> :D
<artnay_> I'll do more wiki updates tomorrow
<artnay_> no, wait. today
<lukacu> night then
<artnay_> you too, mate
<artnay_> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/attachments/20060111/69b7db6c/DapperDevStatus05-Jan-2006-0001.pdf
<artnay_> in case you haven't seen it yet
<LizardKing_it> hello to all
<artnay_> hey LizardKing_it 
<LizardKing_it> how are you?
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal and its subpages have gone through a lot of changes
<artnay_> better than yesterday ;) you?
<LizardKing_it> section blablabla now is not more there :D
<LizardKing_it> yes
<LizardKing_it> did you edit you this page?
<artnay_> and several others
<artnay_> and once you're at it, give your vote for the next meeting date :)
<artnay_> I'll have a ciggie now, brb
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:artnay_] : have you moo... voted today? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-18
<artnay_> hey klepas 
<klepas> hey
<Tm_T> good morning
<Tm_T> I finally have working gimp & inkscape
<Tm_T> I have idea for background, I'll show soon something, I hope
<Tm_T> in the meantime, there's ubuntu logo svg somewhere?
<klepas> yea
<klepas> search the wiki
<klepas> i can't remember the exact page :o)
<Tm_T> heh, I thought so
<Tm_T> my idea is to combine ubuntu/kubuntu/edubuntu logos
<artnay_> so you end up with... kedubuntu?
<artnay_> hey you two, you haven't vote yet
<Tm_T> what?
<artnay_>  /topic
<klepas> i will
<klepas> soon
<artnay_> hmm, I wonder where did the "d" go
<artnay_> nevermind
<artnay_> klepas: wiki has been updated a lot, next thing would be creating /UbuntuArtwork
<Tm_T> what vote.... I'm too confused, afraid so
<artnay_> check the first lines at News section at ArtworkTodoProposal
<Tm_T> yeah, I'm on vote wikipage, but still don't understand
<Tm_T> .... AAAH!!!!
<artnay_> ding! ;)
<Tm_T> hate these days
<artnay_> you hit the jackpot
<artnay_> it's friday after all
<Tm_T> :(
<Tm_T> hey, if I do wallpaper, does it really matter if I use svg or only png?
<Tm_T> I'm still more "home" with gimp and pixels than inkscape and vectors
<artnay_> svg would be better, or at a gimp file with layers in it
<Tm_T> aye
<artnay_> but hey, you're the one who is doing it. it's up to you
<Tm_T> joop, liskin jotain gimpill aluksi, ny eiii jaksa ->
<artnay_> ok
<artnay_> :)
<Tm_T> och samma p svenska ;-P
<artnay_> varfr inte?
<Tm_T> sorry, truth is I don't speak nor write swedish at all :p
<Tm_T> ;)
<Tm_T> http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kedubuntu-1.png
<Tm_T> that's my main idea
<Tm_T> and background for that will have sam kind of theme
<Tm_T> same
<Tm_T> artnay_: what you think?
<artnay_> it's funny but quite "busy"
<Tm_T> yeah
<artnay_> but it's still ok
<Tm_T> my point is to show that they all three has too much common to be thought separate
<artnay_> go on, background will balance it
<Tm_T> true
<Tm_T> http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kedubuntu-1b.png
<Tm_T> what a beauty ;-P
<Burgundavia> Tm_T, nice logo, but the background is too noisy for me
<Tm_T> it is
<Burgundavia> why not use one of the colours from each distro for each section?
<Tm_T> I was just playing around with BRIGHT colours
<Burgundavia> ie, the part by ubuntu would be brown, etc.
<Tm_T> that's not what I do usually
<Tm_T> Burgundavia: hum, blue is for K, red for edu?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Tm_T> hum, why not
<Tm_T> and less saturation for red I guess, or is it too red?
<Burgundavia> let see with the default background colours
<Tm_T> hummm, dunno about defaults, can't even remember what was defaults in kubuntu :p
<Tm_T> http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kedubuntu-1a.png <- background untouched
<Tm_T> too blue to all others but Kubuntu <3
<Burgundavia> that doesn't look bad
<Burgundavia> your Ubuntu colours for the ring look off
<Tm_T> aye
<Tm_T> off?
<Tm_T> straight from "official" logo
<Burgundavia> maybe it is just that the yellow is quite jarring
<Burgundavia> what about swapping the kubuntu and ubuntu sections
<Burgundavia> ?
<Tm_T> hmm, maybe
<Tm_T> but, do, lots of lots of undo and redo :p
<Tm_T> s/do/doh
<Tm_T> but maybe
<Tm_T> humm, if I just change colours of ubuntu part?
<Burgundavia> hmm, I wouldn't go for it
<Tm_T> I mean I take colours of other ubuntu part
<Tm_T> ok ok, I'll swap it
<Tm_T> ;)
<Tm_T> Burgundavia: c
<Tm_T> http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kedubuntu-1c.png
<Tm_T> food now, all suggestions welcome so just keep hilighting me ;)
<Tm_T> going to deep blue: http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kedubuntu-1d.png
<Tm_T> action shot: http://www.tm-travolta.net/shots/foo_001.png
<Tm_T> well, atleast that works just fine in Kubuntu desktop of mine <3
<klepas> laptop of my dreams -> http://www-5.ibm.com/se/news/archive/images/computers/thinkpad/ThinkPad_X41_Tablet/ThinkPad_X41_Tablet_2.jpg
<klepas> that screen tablet has full The GIMP support!
<Tm_T> =)
<klepas> in fact the entire laptop has complete Linux support on over 5 different distros
<klepas> including source, rpm and deb based distros
<klepas> but the price tag is so...
<klepas> grrr
<klepas> over 2300 USD
<klepas> bbl
<Tm_T> :)
<artnay_> Tm_T: lightnings on the background don't look quite right. how about doing svg of the background so people could set whatever colours they like? I'm pretty sure inkscape could trace the edges of logo :o
<artnay_> and what about so beloved xubuntu?! :p
<Tm_T> artnay_: well, it's not in the frontpagee of ubuntu.com ;)
<Tm_T> artnay_: lightnings? and yes, svg would be better
<Tm_T> artnay_: I haven't really spent time with this yet as you see ;)
<artnay_> I guess there's no official xubuntu logo yet, so pick up the one you like
<artnay_> klepas: any AUC news?
<artnay_> can you keep us informed by editing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArtworkWebsite ?
<Tm_T> artnay_: nah, I could add that mouse to center, but nah nah
<artnay_> wiki is getting better (a little by little) but AUC is a question without an answer ;)
<Tm_T> http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kedubuntu-1f.png
<Tm_T> artnay_: btw you think it's too sharp iwht full colours? and should I reduce shadow?
<artnay_> therefore I asked for edges so I could fill it by myself :p
<artnay_> well kubuntu's blue doesn't blend so well with yellow and red (imo), at least I focused more on the blue element than the others... so maybe it should have a bit opacity
<artnay_> svg so we can play with it, plz ;) would save some time
<artnay_> I don't mind the shadows actually, it depends on the background
<Tm_T> aye
<Tm_T> artnay_: ok ok, I'll do it as soon as I can, now I have to go to bank and post :) -->>
<artnay_> bye
<Tm_T> artnay_: bah, wont go anywhere
<Tm_T> one of those days I can't stand
<Tm_T> artnay_: I'll do that today or during weekend, and so on, but don't hold your breath for it ;)
<Tm_T> coffee and relax for awhile ->
<artnay_> ok, drop us a link when you're done. thanks
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-19
<klepas> oh dear, mhz as an SVG... =] 
<Burgundavia> Tm_T, looks good, the lastest versions
<artnay_> hey guys
<Tm_T> http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kedubuntu-1g.png
<Tm_T> still gimping ;(
<Tm_T> I'll play with inkscape tomorrow if I have enough time then
<Tm_T> ok, going again ->
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-21
<artnay_> hey mhz_SVG 
<mhz_SVG> artnay: hey mon
<artnay_> long time no... IRC?
<mhz_SVG> how's it going
<mhz_SVG> yup
<mhz_SVG> too much
<mhz_SVG> I feel I am a stranger now
<artnay_> I'm fine, we had presidental election today
<mhz_SVG> :DS
<mhz_SVG> hehehe
<mhz_SVG> REALLY!!!
<mhz_SVG> in Chile, too
<artnay_> oh rili
<artnay_> yes
<artnay_> yeah, you now have a female as a president
<mhz_SVG> it seems the woman candidate is becoming next president here
<artnay_> let's hope she will bring some changes
* mhz_SVG crosses fingers
<artnay_> :>
<mhz_SVG> and in your country?
<artnay_> a female at the moment
<artnay_> probably she will continue
<mhz_SVG> good or bad?
<artnay_> I don't really know... I mean, it doesn't matter if the president is she (or he) but one should be a right person for that
<artnay_> and I'm a bit disappointed to our current president, she hasn't done much in six years
<artnay_> I voted but my candidate didn't make it
<artnay_> so now there's two candidates left and I'm not sure who should I vote (or should I even vote at all)
<artnay_> oh, I saw you voted for the 2nd of Feb
<artnay_> thanks for that, we really need some active people here
<mhz_SVG> artnay_: my big issue is time for artwork team :(
<mhz_SVG> so I collaborate only when I can
<mhz_SVG> and meetings are important
<mhz_SVG> to help the lead of you and klepas
<artnay_> klepas is busy
<artnay_> I'm not that busy but I'm not willing to do all this by myself and for myself... :|
<artnay_> I really don't see much interest in artwork from community
<artnay_> just look at the votes at ArtworkTeamVoting
<artnay_> and ML
<artnay_> and this channel
<artnay_> :(
<artnay_> and no input from canonical
<mhz_SVG> artnay: my guess is you should talk to ogra
<mhz_SVG> or JaneW
<artnay_> I mailed Jane*
<mhz_SVG> and tell them what your feeling is and ideas
<artnay_> and ogra isn't here anymore :|
<mhz_SVG> hmmmm
<mhz_SVG> I know they have hired some pros and I still have seen no one of them here
<mhz_SVG> informing what they do or plan to
<mhz_SVG> I think we should have a coordinate work
<artnay_> yeah, I wonder that too
<artnay_> CoC states all work should be public etc.
<artnay_> so... maybe they want to give a surprise
<mhz_SVG> artnay_: have you contated Community Council?
<artnay_> don't really know
<artnay_> no I haven't
<artnay_> last time I spoke with you and klepas, there was something bringing that up in next meeting
<artnay_> but after that I really haven't talked to you or klepas
<mhz_SVG> artnay_: my honest and best guess is if you have a plan, state it, and the 'interested people' will follow
<mhz_SVG> as I said once, I have no idea how to do 'artwork' just some basics for SVG
<mhz_SVG> so I can hardly make a plan
<mhz_SVG> but I can surely follow someone with good ideas and experience
<artnay_> my idea? I have my own thingies that I can do to my desktop
<mhz_SVG> see?
<artnay_> but I think canonical should provice a branding guide which should be followed
<mhz_SVG> then community is not needed
<mhz_SVG> if they can do that
<mhz_SVG> and have people for ti
<mhz_SVG> it
<mhz_SVG> unless we have good ideas
<artnay_> but I think they should provide us a way to co-operate a way or another
<mhz_SVG> in which case they'll need the community
<mhz_SVG> yup
<mhz_SVG> but then, if you are willing to go to that fight, the most I can do is to support you
<artnay_> I know graphics is something that you need to make yourself. you really can't have tens of people messing around with one project
<mhz_SVG> and encourage you to present the case to CC people
<mhz_SVG> and help follow 
<mhz_SVG> 'the plan'
<artnay_> yep
<artnay_> I've heard we should make our own plan
<mhz_SVG> artnay: I agree with you very much in what we need
<artnay_> but who's going to do that? if one guy says "let's do that, it's cool", people most probably won't help you
<mhz_SVG> before we have a plan we must know what Canonical plans are
<artnay_> but if that guy was mark, I guess many would follow :)
<artnay_> mhz_SVG: indeed
<mhz_SVG> artnay: all free software projects have Roadmap for everything
<artnay_> so if they have hired people to do icons and sounds, but they don't have any to work on usplash and gdm, we should focus on those things
<artnay_> we don't need dupe work
<mhz_SVG> exactly
<artnay_> mhz_SVG: but I haven't seen anything realted to artwork (dapper devel ML)
<mhz_SVG> so the first plan part is to get to know Canonical's plan for artwork
<mhz_SVG> maybe you should visit #ubuntu-devel
<mhz_SVG> and see if some CC guys are there and can help you see some light
<mhz_SVG> artnay: and if you have a plan, I will follow it, step by step
<mhz_SVG> if others dont have a plan, then your plan is the one to follow
<artnay_> well then....
<mhz_SVG> if they dont like your plan they must suggest alternatives, if they dont, then we follow your plan again
<artnay_> then my plan would make a plan by co-operating with as many people as possible
<artnay_> that's why there's artwork team, so people could give their comments and help
<artnay_> because I'm not saying what we should do with artwork, I'm just saying that something should be done asap
<artnay_> I'm really not one of those guys who tells to others what to do
<artnay_> it will fail in this kind of project. if the suggested idea is good, people will help.
<artnay_> that is what I think.
<artnay_> really, who am I? just one user amongst others
<artnay_> but mark and canonical have influence, therefore I think it's their duty to tell how to help
<artnay_> do you guys agree? :o
<mhz_SVG> i see you rpoint
<mhz_SVG> and u are right
<mhz_SVG> but a roadmap is usefull to tell people what the priorities are
<artnay_> that's why I created ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay_> ArtwokTodoList actually, but there hasn't been much comments on that
<artnay_> there has been only a few activepeople contributing on AUC and wiki pages. then there's lots of random artwork (good artwork, I might add) input around web but it's not organized. that is the biggest setback
<artnay_> oh, I'm so tired now. I've been working with the presidental election the whole day
<artnay_> I guess I've said "thank you" like 674 times today. that must be a record for myself :)
<artnay_> mhz_dinner: ArtworkTodoList was meant to be a roadmap. it covers lots of topics that could have been finished before dapper (actually it still is possible to make at least some of them before dapper!)
<artnay_> hey kamstrup 
<kamstrup> yo artnay
<artnay_> you're the one who made that surfing badger, am I right?
<kamstrup> yes :-)
<artnay_> it was really nice, thanks for that
<kamstrup> hehe thanks
<artnay_> kamstrup: have you marked yourself as a member of artwork team?
<kamstrup> hmmm I think so... on the wiki right?
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal - wiki, right.
<artnay_> oh yeah, you're there. sorry, I'm really tired now. it's been a long day today.
<artnay_> anyways, what are your thoughts on ubuntu artwork?
<kamstrup> hehe not many atm
<kamstrup> I'm up to my ears in my masters exam
<artnay_> oh, what are you writing/doing?
<kamstrup> also we're trying to make the Gnome UI freeze deadline for the new deskbar-applet eye-candy gui :-)
<artnay_> I guess I'ev seen that
<kamstrup> I handed in my masters (in math) a while ago; now I just have to defend it  :)
<artnay_> oh, maths... I've done enough of it just know that I can't handle maths that well :)
<kamstrup> as I'm the main coder behind the new gui, and api deadline is the same day as my exam (18th of jan.)... I'm pretty swamped :-)
<artnay_> now that was a quickie
<kamstrup> hehe that was why he was call *Q*-funk
<kamstrup> Quick-funk
<kamstrup> he
<artnay_> and my reverse changed just today so that freenode can now see it, funky.
<artnay_> 02:09 [freenode]  (*) artnay_ [i=artnay@f.unk.fi x)
<artnay_> but hey, it was nice having a little bit of smalltalk with you. I have to get some sleep now, let's chat more later on
<artnay_> bye all
<kamstrup> cheers artnay
<Tm_T> aww, fontforge vs inkscape
<Tm_T> awwww
<Tm_T> help!
<artnay_> what is it, Tm_T?
<Tm_T> 08:05 < Tm_T> aww, fontforge vs inkscape
<Tm_T> witch one
<Tm_T> artnay_: hey, can I import another svg as layer in inkscape?
<Tm_T> oh, I can <3
<Tm_T> sort of
<Tm_T> artnay_: first svg done, just copy&paste this far
<artnay_> Tm_T: ok, let us see what you're doing when you're done
<Tm_T> http://kapsi.fi/~tm_travolta/kuvat/temp/kedubuntu-basic-01.svg
<Tm_T> all three parts are their own layer, I hope
<artnay_> the server doesn't handle SVGs properly
<Tm_T> I know
<Tm_T> pain, isn't it
<artnay_> requiredExtensions="http://ns.adobe.com/AdobeIllustrator/10.0/
<Tm_T> artnay_: complaining, so maybe some improvenments will be done soon ;)
<Tm_T> err?
<Tm_T> hummm
<artnay_> parse the file :)
<Tm_T> I should
<Tm_T> but, haven't done anything yet really
<artnay_> sodipodi:docbase="/pub/ssh/kapsi.fi/public_html/kuvat/temp"
<artnay_> <!-- Generator: Adobe Illustrator 11 Build 196, SVG Export Plug-In . SVG Version: 6.0.0 Build 78)  -->
<Tm_T> humm
<Tm_T> bah, nano ->
<artnay_> ;D
<Tm_T> stop laughing at me!
<Tm_T> ;D
<artnay_> I'm not laughing at you, just nano ;)
<Tm_T> murrrhhh
<Tm_T> where was I? Oh yes, nano ->
<Tm_T> artnay_: humm, there's no root element in that file... whooops
<Tm_T> this is strange...
<Tm_T> Kate <3
<Tm_T> sometimes I hate svg ;(
<Tm_T> artnay_: hrr, I'm evil and cruely cut out all what is not needed to draw lines, atleast all what seems to be unimportant
<Tm_T> artnay_: recheck it now, just used Kate so not sure if it works at all
<artnay_> XML Parsing Error: mismatched tag. Expected: </rdf:RDF>.
<artnay_> Line Number 78, Column 5:		</i:pgf>
<artnay_> ------------------^
<Tm_T> :/
<Tm_T> now?
<Tm_T> now it's raped, hope it still works
<Tm_T> nah, it's broken
<Tm_T> artnay_: ok, I'm insane, but now I even start doing one more kopete chat style... well, always good to have jobs waiting ;-P
<_jason> Hello, I made an ubuntu buddy icon for aim.  It is simple but I would like to share it in case anyone else would like to use it.  However, I am not sure where to place it in the wiki.  Can someone suggest something?  (It doesn't seem to merit its own page, here is what it looks like: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ribeiro/ubuntu/ubuntu-logo-icon-white.jpg)
<artnay_> _jason: I would suggest you to submit it to http://art.ubuntu.com
<_jason> artnay, thanks, I'll do that
<artnay_> you did it, thank you. :)
<_jason> artnay, when I go to 'My Account', I only see the option to submit a theme or background.  Is there a different section I can submit to, or should I just choose one of those?
<_jason> artnay, never mind I see the option for the icon category in themes
<_jason> hey what license should I use when submitting that icon?  because th ubuntu logo is trademarked right?
<_jason> (referring to submitting  http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ribeiro/ubuntu/ubuntu-logo-icon-white.jpg at http://art.ubuntu.com )
<lapo> hi there
<artnay_> damn, he left before I woke up :/
<artnay_> hey guys
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-22
<artnay_> oh
<artnay_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFlight3
<artnay_> http://www.simplifiedcomplexity.com/images/screenshots/dapper/flight3/default-ubuntu-desktop-big.png - now is that a modification of tango icons (evolution)?
<artnay_> what do you think of logout action that is in the right corner? 
<artnay_> http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/test/4.91/i386/os/RELEASE-NOTES
<artnay_> A completely revamped look and feel including a bubbly new
<artnay_> theme, wallpaper, screensaver and logo has been provided that
<artnay_> is visually appealing and demonstrates the exciting and user
<artnay_> friendly nature of Fedora.
<artnay_> artwork, attention needed! :)
<artnay_> and here is the new look: http://madpenguin.org/images/reviews/fc5t2/defgnome.jpg
<artnay_> it's using clearlooks 2 as a metacity theme. really, why not use bvc's unity in ubuntu? is it because of the red button? :o
<artnay> quite a monolog... comments?
<_jason> Hey, what license should I choose in 'theme submission'.  I am submitting an AIM buddy icon to art.ubuntu.com: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ribeiro/ubuntu/ubuntu-logo-icon-white.jpg .  Just not sure since the actual logo is a trademark of canonical
<artnay> what does wiki say about it?
<artnay> hey mhz_BBS 
<artnay> uh, 03:01 AM. bye!
<_jason> Hey, what license should I choose in 'theme submission'.  I am submitting an AIM buddy icon to art.ubuntu.com: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ribeiro/ubuntu/ubuntu-logo-icon-white.jpg .  Just not sure since the actual logo is a trademark of canonical
<_jason> lol if someone mods the art.ubuntu.com page here, I doubled posted by mistake because I pressed the back button... then I reported abuse on myself :)
<lapo> hi
<artnay> hey guys, have you tested flight3 already?
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-15
<coz_> evening to all artists :)
<troy_s> greets coz)
<troy_s> coz_ even
<coz_> troy_s, hey guy one minute I have a person i am helping
<coz_> troy_s, sorry for the delay
<coz_> and sorry for disconnecting myself :)
<coz_> night all :)
<lapo> yo there
<BHSPitLappy> yo
<coz_> ok guys, i have asked several times in as many days if any of the devs would remove my gallery and name form the art.ubuntu.com gallery
<coz_> I see that it is still there
<kwwii> coz_: might be better to poke someone in the evening, european time, that is when there seems to be more discussion
<coz_> kwwii, oh really? I often wondered when most of the people here talked :) thanks
<kwwii> no prob :-)
<coz_> kwwii,  well may not be necessary now found the delete images option on that site
<coz_> would lik emy name removed though
<kwwii> I can understand that
<kwwii> the only reason I use my name is because I am getting paid to do the stuff :-)
<coz_> kwwii, well if you need an friend working with you let me know :)
<kwwii> coz_: we can use all the help we can get working on kubuntu ;-)
<kwwii> everyone is welcome
<coz_> kwwii, my problem right now if you haven't heard is that the mods decided to remove a painting of mine from the forums
<kwwii> wow, why?
<kwwii> was it something morally questionable?
<kwwii> I am not too big on forums nor wikis ;-)
<coz_> according to the mods the first explanation was tha tit was not family friendly, it was anude painting of a former mod and dev named kassetra
<coz_> the second reason was that it ws not  appropriate to show a formoer mods painting in the nude
<coz_> without permission but I had that of course
<coz_> it is a tasteful painting but I will not tolerate censorship
<coz_> so they lose out
<kwwii> hrm
<coz_> kwwii, would you like to see it?
<kwwii> yeah, after the calender stuff we have to be carefull of people's reactions
<kwwii> sure, love to
<coz_> kwwii, nonsense
<coz_> when it is pronyes when it is art NO
<coz_> hold on
<kwwii> oh, you cannot imagine how many people flipped out about that stuff (although I found it very tastefull)
<coz_> kwwii, here you go   http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/1203/kassestrajy8.png
<coz_> kwwii, who flipped out about that stuf?
<coz_> kwwii, well do you think that is offensive?
<kwwii> from what I heard, a lot of people did (note, I was not around at that time)
<coz_> kwwii, and your opinion?
<kwwii> no, it is not offensive, but then again, in europe stuff like that is normal
<kwwii> you can see more than that on normal tv here
<coz_> yeah well i am italian
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> I've lived in germany for 11 years so I am used to it
<kwwii> but in america some probably consider that porn
<coz_> kwwii, when someone looks at that simply sketch I showed you and sees anything other than what it is , a painting sketch , somethings is wrong
<kwwii> yeah, I think so too, but we have to be careful because there are a lot of people out there who are not as accepting as we are
<coz_> kwwii, then they either stop looking at it or go elsewhere
<kwwii> that is the hard thing about putting stuff on a website for everyone
<kwwii> it is more a problem, I guess for, let's say, a kid who likes it, uses it and then his/her parents flip out
<coz_> kwwii, not at all they all have achoice the problem with this icident is I had an actual nude photo next to this that wasn't removed at all
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> well, perhaps it did have more to do with the fact that people knew that person
<coz_> kwwii, on otp of which other photos are still there that are far more suggestive than this
<kwwii> hrm
<kwwii> funky
<coz_> yep so i posited there to help teach that beautiful things can be created with minimal tools
<coz_> so theri loss not mine
<kwwii> to be honest, I have no info on who even takes care of that stuff, I'm just trying to imagine the situation
<kwwii> yeah
<kwwii> I wouldn't let it anger you
<coz_> kwwii, I already know who did it and what their conflicting views were so...
<coz_> anyway
<kwwii> sometimes you just have to roll with things
<coz_> kwwii, not this no
<coz_> kwwii, this needs to be stopped
<coz_> i would urge all posters on the forums to remove teir work until this is stopped
<kwwii> well, if it was a personal reason, then yeah, it is not right
<coz_> make no contributions at all
<coz_> kwwii, it ws a political move not a family freindly one
<kwwii> I guess that is counter-productive, perhaps having a group meeting to discuss it
<coz_> kwwii,  the problem with that is the group meeting would have the same metality of the memebers there
<kwwii> often you can cut through such bullshit (sorry for the word) by discussing things in a larger group
<kwwii> again, I don't really know who the members are
<kwwii> so I can't comment on that or on this particular situation
<coz_> kwwii, I don't know what group, this is something that the community has to put  astop to by boycotting
<kwwii> or discussing, that really can be quite powerfull too
<kwwii> if a 100 people express their opinions that it is wrong, things will change
<coz_> kwwii, i all the people on the art team and artists on the forums wouls simply stop support and poisting their work that should give a message of some kind
<kwwii> sure, that would get attention, but it is quite a negative approach
<kwwii> there is a saying in german "you catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar"
<coz_> kwwii, same here probably because the US is 57% german :)
<kwwii> I can understand how frustrating it can be but I think that trying to take a positive approach might be more helpful for you in the long run
<kwwii> lol, yeah
<coz_> kwwii, see thats another thing, I am not upset about this at all, other than a fight against censorship. I don't need to show my work for ego or to get ecposure
<kwwii> well, that is a good start :-)
<kwwii> try and set up a meeting, and discuss stuff like this
<coz_> kwwii, but censorship in art cannot exist in this century
<kwwii> if we had a good set of rules about this stuff, it would be easier to work these problems out
<coz_> kwwii, the ONLY that needs applied is that ONLY an artis can moderate the galleries
<kwwii> yeah, that would be nice as well, but often artists are the last people in the world who want to do that work ;-)
<kwwii> I know that it takes a lot of time and patience to do it right
<coz_> kwwii, I would do it willingly
<coz_> just to make sure no programmer or non artist can make a decision about art
<kwwii> then you have more patience than I do :-)
<coz_> kwwii, it wouldn't take much to do it
<coz_> I know what is art and what is porn
<coz_> kids play
<kwwii> yeah, that is normally pretty easy to see
<coz_> kwwii, yep
<coz_> kwwii, I assume  you are part of the art team as well?
<kwwii> coz_: yepp, I work on kubuntu mainly although that might change in the future
<coz_> kwwii, well my name is on the team list however few people new about it :)
<coz_> and i don't get paind either
<coz_> paid
<kwwii> :-)
<kwwii> I have to take my wife to the dentist, brb
<kwwii> 15min
<coz_> kwwii, go guy !:)
<troy_s> greets dborg
<troy_s> greets msikma
<msikma> hi troy
<dborg> heya
<coz_> afternoon all
<troy_s> greetings coz_
<coz_> troy_s, hey guy! how are you?
<troy_s> Fine thank you...
<coz_> well as usual not many people talking here ")
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> yeah
<kwwii> and when they are, they go like crazy for a while
<coz_> kwwii, you know I have never been here to see "crazy" yet "_
<kwwii> :p
<troy_s> greets kwwii
<kwwii> howdy troy_s
<kwwii> btw, everyone
<kwwii> I will be working on kubuntu artwork and more
<kwwii> it is official
<troy_s> what is the more?
<troy_s> did sab pass you ub?
<troy_s> or is he still banging away with cliff?
<kwwii> no idea
<kwwii> honestly, I signed a contract but I am not sure what exactly my job will be other than kubuntu
<kwwii> at least the is the one definte thing in the contract
<kwwii> and this time it is not a short term contract
<kwwii> I'll know more when I talk to him next week
<kwwii> in oslo
<troy_s> Good stuff.
<troy_s> How long did you get your contract for?
<kwwii> till the end of this year
<kwwii> of course, that does not mean that they cannot end it earlier
<troy_s> Oh I thought you were going to say indefinitely.
<troy_s> Too bad.
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> nobody gets an indefinite contract
<troy_s> Oh well, I guess it is better than nothing when you need a gig.
<kwwii> at least from what I have heard
<kwwii> yepp
<kwwii> I am happy with it
<troy_s> How many hours per week?  Full time?
<kwwii> yepp
<troy_s> Well that's good.
<kwwii> and they did ask me if I will do ubuntu stuff too
<troy_s> Still need a bloody design pattern.
<kwwii> but i think that comes down to my experienc in print graphics and making the usplash stuff
<kwwii> yepp
<troy_s> It seems everyone is incapable of delivering such a device.
<kwwii> there is still a lot to work out, and my contract means little in the longer term of things
<kwwii> well, I wrote the bootsplash (the first splash stuff) so I have a bit of experience working on lowcolor graphics
<kwwii> probably more than most
<troy_s> ???
<alefteris> anyone knows what is the font used for the "local community team" text at this image https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/Logo?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu_uk_logo_v5.png ??
<troy_s> Lost me on that statement.
<troy_s> You know about the font search engine alefteris ?
<troy_s> oh that's an easy one
<alefteris> no
<troy_s> sudo apt-get install ubuntu-title
<troy_s> it is a god awful ugly font in terms of mechanics however
<troy_s> you will manually need to adjust the spacing for example.
<alefteris> it does seem to be the ubuntu font, the "m" is completely different
<alefteris> among others
<troy_s> erm
<troy_s> i stand corrected
<troy_s> yes the tails indicate
<troy_s> that it is modata i believe
<troy_s> let me just check that for you
<troy_s> alefteris: Try mgOpen Modata
<troy_s> Ok?
<alefteris> itsnt not modata, it does have rounded edges.. :(
<alefteris> does not have
<troy_s> erm.
<kwwii> troy_s: I meant that I learned how to do linux artwork when it was still pixel-pushing and low-color doesn't scare me
<troy_s> are you talking about the a?
<troy_s> kwwii sadly I remember developing work when you had to reference pixels in a hex lookup table.
<troy_s> _very_ sad.
<troy_s> alefteris: the 'a'?
<alefteris> troy_s, all chars
<kwwii> troy_s: yepp, that is what doing the usplash is all about unfortunately
<troy_s> currently?
<kwwii> note that the bootsplash (my stuff not the usplash) has been jpeg stuff form the beginning
<troy_s> kwwii, sorry... currently?  it was an import as of the last version.
<troy_s> usplash is a simple compile step, or rather was.
<kwwii> yeah, well, not the kubuntu version :-)
<troy_s> lord
<kwwii> no, it is still limited colors
<troy_s> yes
<kwwii> although it is more than 16 (thanks be to god)
<troy_s> i meant lookup table.  i can't think of anything that still uses a lookup table.
<troy_s> its 8bpp palettized now isn't it?
<kwwii> sure, if it is a color mapped file it is a look up table
<troy_s> so you at least have exposure to the true colour spectrum
<troy_s> even if it is somewhat limited ;)
<kwwii> you just get to determine the colors in the table
<kwwii> exactly
<troy_s> yes.  stair interpolations take care of that better than any alg.
<kwwii> yepp
<troy_s> probably write one quickly using bash or msl.
<kwwii> although you cannot simply do anything you want
<troy_s> (that imagemagick markup language)
<kwwii> so you have to think about the implementation when creating the design
<troy_s> that is probably a good thing
<kwwii> amazing, that
<kwwii> :p
<troy_s> you always should.
<troy_s> ;)
<kwwii> sure, but most "artists" do not realize taht
<kwwii> that
<troy_s> it does a bunch of good stuff though thanks to seveas like the animation etc.
<troy_s> i don't know... they teach you medium training in art school 00001, unless you mean someone without training.
<kwwii> yeah, did some amazing stuff, making it finally worthwhile to worry about the design
<troy_s> haven't looked into usplash too much of late though.
<kwwii> well, almost all linux artist have no training
<troy_s> as right now
<kwwii> it is the same as before
<troy_s> on my lovely 64bit box
<troy_s> we have exactly 16 colours of grey
<troy_s> or less
<troy_s> it is still pooched
* kwwii gets his ibm x60 in two days
<troy_s> ?
<troy_s> wtf is an x60?
<troy_s> you mean amd64 (EMT64)?
<kwwii> thinkpad x60
<troy_s> oh cool
<troy_s> !
<troy_s> great little unit
<kwwii> tiny as hell
<troy_s> what chip is in it though?
<kwwii> very light
<kwwii> core duo
<troy_s> erk
<troy_s> mod 1 or 2?
<kwwii> 80bg hard drive
<kwwii> 2
<troy_s> u know?
<kwwii> works perfectly with linux
<troy_s> well at least that is an upside... the nicest thing about that unit is that it is very free software friendly.
<troy_s> what made you decide to get one?
<kwwii> having only macs made me want to get one
<kwwii> it is the perfect mobile test machine for me
<kwwii> really light and small
<troy_s> alefteris: http://www.creativepro.com/eservices/fontsearch
<troy_s> what did it cost you?
<troy_s> i have been toying with getting a Turion X2
<kwwii> 1700 euros
<troy_s> they are deadly cheap at the moment.
<troy_s> AGGggahhhhahhhahhhhhhhahhhheeeeehhhhh
<kwwii> with the docking station
<troy_s> *thud*
<troy_s> that is just stuipd
<troy_s> stupid
<troy_s> in terms of markup
<kwwii> my mac cost much more than that
<troy_s> that is like... almost
<troy_s> 3400
<kwwii> dude, in europe computers cost muchmore
<troy_s> yeah apparently!
<kwwii> honestly
<troy_s> what a rip off
<troy_s> can't you buy online and ship?
<troy_s> like from ncix.com or something?
<kwwii> my mac cost 2100
<kwwii> nope
<kwwii> I would have to pay taxes when it comes through the mail
<troy_s> wow... that is a lot of money for a piece of junk that is obsolete in a year.
<troy_s> erk
<kwwii> true
<troy_s> that is bloody bonkers.
<troy_s> BONKERS
<kwwii> but in europe everything costs more
<troy_s> yes i am familiar with that...
<kwwii> a macbook costs 1500
<troy_s> a trip to england for this old canadian kid is deadly
<alefteris> troy_s, thanks but that search engine does help a lot when you have no idea that the font name is..
<troy_s> alefteris -- there are some there that
<troy_s> do it by 'serif' 'sans' etc.
<troy_s> and show you progressive disclosure
<kwwii> the funny thing is that in america people in this business earn more than here
<kwwii> so where are they throwing their money away?
<troy_s> what business?
<kwwii> although I am now a registered artist
<kwwii> IT
<troy_s> what do you mean by registered?
<troy_s> that sounds...
<troy_s> ...
<troy_s> worrysome
<kwwii> so with that, I only pay a few hundred euros for my insurances (all the different one in europe)
<kwwii> it means that I get support from the german government
<kwwii> the pay 90% of my insurance
<troy_s> ah
<troy_s> insurance on what?  home and car?
<kwwii> here you have social insurance (wellfare, unemployment), health insurance, and one or two others
<kwwii> nothing to do with cars or home
<kwwii> that is extra
<troy_s> alefteris: try this one:
<troy_s> http://www.myfonts.com/WhatTheFont/
<kwwii> and the taxes will kill you
<kwwii> try paying 59% taxes
<kwwii> but then again, if I am unemployed I get a lot of money
<troy_s> uh
<troy_s> i pay 54% each and every day
<kwwii> and I got a lot of money to start my own company
<troy_s> max bracket here in canada
<kwwii> 1.7x what I earned before
<troy_s> so i feel your pain :)
<kwwii> yeah, that is the highest tax bracket too
<troy_s> so do you have any plans for kub?
<kwwii> but since canonical is based outside of the EU, 19 percent falls away
<kwwii> yepp, we are going to push the edgy stuff further
<troy_s> Well good... you have Riddell on your side which makes matters easier.
<kwwii> actually, this time we have a few really good people to help
<kwwii> that is true
<troy_s> Good to hear.
<kwwii> yepp
<troy_s> The basic art team grew massively over edg
<kwwii> I guess I will be helping with ubuntu in some ways as well
<troy_s> I think we are at 204 members now... from 17 at the beginning.
<troy_s> There is no way to help Ubuntu at this juncture...
<troy_s> It is either flog away as current
<kwwii> there is a big push in the kubuntu team to have one branding strategy for all of *buntu
<troy_s> Gee... there is a novel idea.
<kwwii> which would be great for all of us
<troy_s> ;)
<troy_s> Yes.
<troy_s> But the politicking might have issues.
<kwwii> but we need to create something to convince the higher powers that it is a good plan and worthwhile to attemp
<kwwii> t
<troy_s> Difficult when it comes to sabdfl.
<kwwii> yepp, rgiht
<troy_s> The guy is one helluva bright fellow, but at one point he was actually attempting to argue colour theory with me.
<troy_s> Which is funny.
<troy_s> Just made me chuckle in the end.
<troy_s> It is exceptionally unfortunate considering the juncture that technology is at currently.  Vista is due out shortly -- which will certainly highlight the excessive nature of plastic
<troy_s> A great chance for the artists to turn their cheek and head in a new direction... instead of playing dog chase cat games.
<troy_s> alefteris: did that link help?
<msikma> I've shown Vista to many artists
<msikma> I've not once met an artist that liked it
<troy_s> Well it is ...
<troy_s> excessive in many ways.
<troy_s> it really is the culmination of too many years heading towards plastic
<troy_s> and gloss
<msikma> It's ridiculous. Even if you strip it of its pointless transparency and other such effects.
<troy_s> hopefully it will develop a reaction -- like every art movement.
<msikma> It's the culmination of /Microsoft/ heading towards plastic, though.
<troy_s> Plastic is done.
<troy_s> Don't get me wrong, it had its time.
<troy_s> But like every genre, it passes.
<msikma> They and their hestitatingly, almost paranoid way of designing interfaces that "convey the nature of their system".
<troy_s> (not to mention when you dress up a bloody operating system like a cross between a hooker and tammy faye baker)
<troy_s> Probably agree with you.
<troy_s> Although even the well lauded Apple inc has drifted far away from reality.
<msikma> I strongly believe that this kind of interfaces still will be made for a while to come, but Vista certainly isn't helping the genre. :)
<troy_s> Their notions of simplicity and such have given way to peddling gadgetry interfaces.
<troy_s> msikma: Have you seen the itunes shift/.
<msikma> They have been toning down the excessiveness of their interface the past years, though.
<msikma> The new iTunes looks terrible.
<troy_s> (as much as I despise the company, they do have a solid design team that tracks contemporary movement well)
<troy_s> msikma -- watch their entire interface shift to it.
<msikma> I don't get the new iTunes interface.
<troy_s> are you speaking of the matte approach?
<msikma> It's more flat, it doesn't fit in with the rest of the system as much, and it just generally seems to miss what I presumed were Apple design targets.
<troy_s> msikma -- apple has designers with education
<troy_s> it is mandatory to work there
<kwwii> oh, I think it shows a new direction for apple
<troy_s> i can assure you that they are all participants in design meetings.
<msikma> Your point being?
<kwwii> they test the waters first
<troy_s> meaning that they too are seeing gloss done.
<kwwii> and then they move
<troy_s> and, in an attempt to stay ahead in the field, they are slowly implementing the new trends into their interfaces.
<kwwii> definitely
<troy_s> (which unfortunately does nothing for consistency sake across say, itunes, garageband, etc,)
<kwwii> I have seen this coming since garage band
<TheSheep> hello guys!
<troy_s> they probably have their hands handcuffed by the politics
<kwwii> they tried different ideas
<msikma> I doubt that this trend will last. The iTunes-like interface, that is. This seems like a test, like you say, but I find that it doesn't really add much actual use to the whole. It simply is a less good design, regardless of whether gloss is done or not.
<kwwii> and I think the itunes stuff won out
<troy_s> msikma -- I will bet you 1000 dollars on it.
<kwwii> me too
<msikma> The iPhone is very glossy.
<troy_s> kwwii -- i think garageband is more attempting to be a niche
<troy_s> msikma -- it isn't out yet.
<kwwii> although I like the garage band look much better
<alefteris> troy_s, this search engine did the trick :) it was Arial Rounded MT Bold
<kwwii> troy_s: agreed
<troy_s> msikma -- the iphone is almost the epitome of middle grey
<alefteris> troy_s, thanks a lot
<msikma> They aren't going to change the design around that much anymore. I sincerely doubt they will. That's something /I'm/ willing to bet 1000 USD on.
<troy_s> it is a screen
<troy_s> and a wheel
<troy_s> msikma -- the gloss factor you are seeing in the iphone is largely marketing.  unto itself it is more an exercise in minimalistic design
<msikma> All design by Apple is marketing.
<troy_s> msikma -- wow.
<msikma> Okay, not all.
<msikma> But plenty.
<troy_s> msikma -- actually, j.ives et all are pretty solid designers when it comes to education and implementation.
<troy_s> that said, they are riding in a beast that can't keep up right now.
<kwwii> note that the icons shown are of completely diffenent stle
<kwwii> style
<troy_s> kwwii -- indeed!
<msikma> They are excellent designers, but Apple's implementations of any design are centered around marketing. It's marketing that's made Apple such a beloved company.
<kwwii> god, my old keyboard died and I hate this one
<troy_s> the only legacy of their old regime is that god awful white gloss on the keynote
<troy_s> steve jobs the snake oil salesman made them the company they are... performer.  snake oil salesman.  thief.  ;)
<troy_s> greets TheSheep... sorry missed your post.
<msikma> troy_s: you forgot "much more successful".
<kwwii> reminds me of sbdfl in many ways
<troy_s> msikma -- without the performance
<troy_s> erm kwwii
<troy_s> without the performance
<msikma> I don't see why Jobs would care about that.
<troy_s> the most critical component
<troy_s> performance being 'acting'
<TheSheep> some are to made to lead and some are made to follow
<kwwii> well, give him a bit of time and experience
<kwwii> and someone to trust
<msikma> Jobs' purpose is to keep his shareholders' kids' mouths fed. He does this by making computers, an operating system, and a bunch of gadgets.
<msikma> He does that well.
<troy_s> msikma probably agree.  that said, those times for our computing health have passed.
<troy_s> apple is a dinosaur
<troy_s> computers do too much these days to have our vested interests wound up in a nightmare spiral of OSX/Vista DRM/CRM at low levels.
<TheSheep> troy_s: the basic problem with non-glossy non-plastic designs is: how do you make them look brand new :)
<msikma> Therefore I don't see your point when you say that Jobs is a <insert insult here>. It seems like pointless complaining about him, while it really isn't his greatest dream to make the computer systems that /we/ desire.
<troy_s> TheSheep... I don't know if it is critical to make things brand new
<troy_s> that again, is a learned expectation based on contemporary design.
<TheSheep> troy_s: it is for apple and ms
<troy_s> TheSheep -- exactly.  Dinosaurs.
<msikma> troy_s: do you see Ubuntu as a competitor in the Linux market, or as a competitor in the operating system market?
<TheSheep> personally I think that user interface will slowly disappear completely in a few years -- I mean the visuals
<troy_s> TheSheep -- to draw an analogy, when rustic hardwood floors took off, it was a 'strange' thought that people would pay for an object purposefully abused with a hammer and nail :)
<troy_s> TheSheep: probably agree with you.
<troy_s> msikma: Given time, Ubuntu is the first primitive step away from company centric operating systems to democratic and free society based operating systems.
<troy_s> It isn't the end all.
<troy_s> nor perfect
<msikma> And what I'm really asking you here is what you see as an "operating system", and what additional attributes you believe a "Linux operating system" has.
<troy_s> but certainly a _step_ in the proper direction.
<troy_s> Linux is irrelevant
<troy_s> GNU is probably more relevant.
<TheSheep> means to the goal
<troy_s> TheSheep: Agreed.
<msikma> I agree with you on the fact that Linux is irrelevant, but I also believe that GNU is (less so) irrelevant.
<troy_s> kwwii: I think he will either need to hire a spokesperson (unlikely) or spend some time learning how to do it slightly more effectively.
<TheSheep> some day kids will learn about this at school and won't believe
<troy_s> GNU is the practical approach to a world that isn't utopian (read people who would wage war via patents and such)
<troy_s> TheSheep: Completely 100% on the money
<troy_s> "You used to use operating systems controlled by companies?"
<troy_s> Very much along the same lines as comparing democracy in its infancy
<msikma> Anyway, I still firmly believe that, borrowing your terminology for a minute, in order for Ubuntu to succeed, it will have to become one of those dinosaurs.
<troy_s> When other's didn't care etc.
<TheSheep> "WHat do you mean you coudn't use without paying? Paying for what?"
<troy_s> By dinosaur I mean 'too old, too slow, too passee'
<troy_s> not 'big'
<troy_s> ubuntu is already 'big'
<TheSheep> troy_s: have you seen Plan9? :)
<alefteris> I cant rename layers in inkscape, is it a known bug?
<troy_s> TheSheep: Not unless you mean Ed Wood's work :)
<msikma> I thought you meant "big, strong, able to swallow up smaller beasts, seen by many due to their size".
<troy_s> alefteris: I believe so
<troy_s> alefteris: Try this -- change the name in the layer creation toolbox when it comes up.
<troy_s> alefteris: Let me try my compile i made today
<troy_s> msikma:  No, I mean well on the way to extinction
<TheSheep> troy_s: it's an old thing, a different approach to ui architecture. looks ugly, as there are no shiny buttons and stuff -- actually there are almost no ui elements
<troy_s> msikma: Ubuntu is the current 'sexy beast' that all the hip crowd (aside from the existing in distro land crowd) is looking to.
<troy_s> TheSheep: With you 100%
<msikma> I don't get it, troy. You say that Microsoft and Apple are "too slow, too old", etc., but in reality, Ubuntu is currently nothing compared to them. Obviously, it's unfair to label them as such. I think that you shouldn't say that until you've been able to prove that your fancy new operating system is the right way.
<msikma> That's something personal.
<troy_s> msikma:  you are kidding right?
<msikma> I'm definitely not kidding.
<troy_s> msikma: Look how far Ubuntu has come in less than 3 - 4 years.
<troy_s> msikma: Look at the mainstream media press.  Look at the apple converts (the die hards I might add)
<troy_s> look at the reaction to DRM
<troy_s> etc.
<troy_s> As with all revolutions, they take time to hit critical mass.
<msikma> That doesn't mean I believe it isn't going to hit a snag by the time the really big audience, those who think that Windows equals their computer, will begin to notice it. There are prerequisites before that will happen.
<TheSheep> look at the number of ubuntu forks :)
<troy_s> msikma -- it is coming.
<troy_s> msikma -- it has a long way to go, but again, the progress is almost at light speed.
<msikma> With design and marketing like this (geez, just look at the website), I can't see it coming.
<troy_s> msikma -- that i would probably agree with on some level.
<TheSheep> msikma: what's wrong with the website?
<msikma> Really, Ubuntu is an incredible system that's capable of doing anything really well, but there is a huge, huge marketing problem with it.
<troy_s> A) no design strategy -- but that is problematic in association with the needs and goals of free software.
<msikma> It currently has an extremely successful viral marketing campaign going, but that's it.
<troy_s> A.1) Perhaps a larger design strategy needs to be addressed within all of FOSS
<msikma> TheSheep: where to start, where to start...
<troy_s> msikma -- it has more than that.
<troy_s> msikma -- Remember before novell -- sab was in touch with Dell, Sun, etc.
<troy_s> the tides are changing.
* TheSheep looks at microsoft.com
<troy_s> TheSheep: I think the webpage is symptomatic of the ever prevalent problem within the FOSS 'art' community...
<TheSheep> uh, a flyer design
<troy_s> TheSheep: Not enough planning before implementation :)
<kwwii> troy_s: I think he realized the problems and want to give it to someone who knows more, only that is a very hard thing because in the linux world this has not existed until now
<kwwii> I mean, how much does apple pay for all of this
<kwwii> more than he wants to pay
<TheSheep> troy_s: I can see how badly that moinmoin is hacked
<troy_s> kwwii: Agreed.  But it isn't just pay.
<kwwii> sure
<TheSheep> troy_s: I did some development with moinmoin, you see
<msikma> troy_s: how about a non-designer who made the site design who shouldn't have had to make it in the first place
<troy_s> kwwii:  Primarily, it is finding the components of a team that is building something that has no track record
<kwwii> but unless you are in the know, it comes down to that
<TheSheep> troy_s: they even use some of my icons ;)
<troy_s> no history
<troy_s> it is all completely ... fresh ground.
<kwwii> ture
<kwwii> true
<msikma> Hmm.
<kwwii> damn keyboard
<troy_s> TheSheep -- speaking of icons... sketches?
<msikma> I once read a funny quote
<msikma> "Design is a smiling cat with a tie."
<troy_s> kwwii -- when people say 'that isn't how it is done' in terms of this sort of project, they should probably sit down and shut up.  NONE of us know how this should work.
<TheSheep> troy_s: hah! sorry, didn't have much time
<troy_s> etc.
<msikma> It's this that Ubuntu currently misses.
<troy_s> TheSheep -- stinker.
<troy_s> msikma -- but giving up wont solve the problem
<troy_s> we really need to agree that our common ground is to make things better
<TheSheep> troy_s: hey, I've got some real work to do too
<msikma> I admire your ability to keep on going, troy_s. I certainly would have given up long ago if I had to face the problems that you face in Ubuntu artwork production.
<troy_s> and that we all need to very much value the people who bother to get involved... figure out a way to work together in a manner that has yet to be utilized in FOSS etc...
<troy_s> TheSheep: Still a stinker.
<TheSheep> troy_s: sure
<troy_s> msikma: I have none.
<troy_s> msikma: I certainly have very well known disagreements with how the art and design of ubuntu should proceed, but again, that is just bikeshedding for the large part.
<msikma> I think that, due to others slowing you down, you can't get as much as 1% done of what you'd /like/ to get done.
<troy_s> Not my role nor my goal.
<troy_s> we have some talented folks involved with ubuntu artwork...
<troy_s> finding a way to utilize and harness their abilities is a trick.
<msikma> If it's not your goal to get done what you want to get done, then what is it?
<troy_s> especially with the needs and aspirations of sabdfl.
<TheSheep> msikma: create situations in which it's also others' goal :)
<msikma> sabdfl has aspirations, but he is unable to get a decent community artwork team started, and he does not hire the right people to do contractual work.
<troy_s> msikma -- Personally?  I want to see an environment that reflects what Ubuntu is -- it is a foray into the future in terms of technology.  We should be more liberal with our approach in terms of art and design.  NOT follow the 'existing' monsters.
<msikma> So obviously other people will need to jump in to fulfill sabdfl's ambitions.
<kwwii> troy_s: I think that is the sign of someone trying to solve problem he/she does not really understand
<troy_s> I think ultimately, sabdfl is insecure.  It is the nature of a geek background I think ;_
<troy_s> kwwii -- yes.
<troy_s> I have a great quotation from a book... let me find it
<troy_s> roughly
<kwwii> you always have great quotes :-)
<troy_s> "Applying techniques that have worked before with success to something that is different."
<troy_s> paraphrased
<kwwii> yepp
<kwwii> well, we will see what the future holds
<troy_s> not to sound wholly utopian and fairy like, but we really need to collaborate on levels that have yet to be seen
<kwwii> totally true
<troy_s> and push the envelope
<troy_s> Have the room for people to fail, and be successful in failing... if that makes any sense from a zen standpoint ;)
<kwwii> I think that having one branding strategy for everything would simplifiy the matter
<coz_> absolutely guys sorry ai am supproting on other channels and will be more concentrated here in a moment pLEASE don't leave :)
<troy_s> kwwii -- when you speak branding...
<msikma> troy_s: getting back to the "design is a smiling cat with a tie" quote from a second ago. Don't you think that Ubuntu has even a snowball's chance in hell of becoming a widely used operating system if it misses this factor?
<troy_s> what are you speaking of in terms of targets?
<TheSheep> branding is in the way of good design :(
<troy_s> msikma -- no
<troy_s> msikma -- it has the snowballs chance to get it into the eyes, but unless we all act fast, it could very well be an opportunity missed.
<kwwii> troy_s: I mean that we need a total branding strategy for all of *buntu with slight modifications  for every variant
<troy_s> TheSheep: Don't be too knee jerk -- kwwii knows what he is talking about.
<kwwii> no reason to recreate the wheel for everything
<troy_s> kwwii -- Agree 100%... it would be lovely to gather a motif and agree upon it.
<kwwii> exactly
<TheSheep> troy_s: sorry, I've just seen so many projects defated with branding
<TheSheep> troy_s: the word itself hurts :)
<msikma> Then why have I seen so incredibly and almost ridiculously few attempts by Ubuntu contributors to attempt to attain such a factor? It's like many people don't even know it exists. Maybe that is in the nature of a geek.
<troy_s> TheSheep -- if I based my life on the failures of others, I certainly would have gotten no where.
<kwwii> but until now there has been too much political disagreement/desktop-religion involved
<TheSheep> troy_s: I base it on mine
<coz_> msikma, sorry could you ecplain that I wasn't paining attention
<troy_s> msikma -- One part training.  One part knowledge.  One part thought.  Three parts execution.
<coz_> msikma, this thing about ubuntu contributors/
<troy_s> kwwii Another very astute point.
<troy_s> The politics in FOSS are depressing.
<kwwii> if we could all get together and works things out as one team, and pick the best resolution we would get a lot further, step by step than ever before
<troy_s> kwwii -- arguably with a solid guess of a blueprint in place before we start.
<kwwii> yepp, exactly
<troy_s> Decide on WHAT mountain to climb before we start moving our arms and legs.
<kwwii> perhaps now that things are so disparate there is a real chance of that
<coz_> well in my opinion if the art team were recognized as abolutely necessary
<troy_s> Which is the unfortunate part of Edgy -- we really made terrific gains in terms of learning Launchpad etc.
<troy_s> All overlooked by sabdfl.
<coz_> all would be well
<kwwii> I mean, the only way from where we are now is up
<troy_s> coz_  That isn't something that will just be bestowed
<troy_s> coz_  The proof is in the pooding so to speak :)
<coz_> troy_s, i know but that is just a a lack on shuttleworths abilities
<TheSheep> kwwii: I see current contributors as a bunch of ants running around and fixing this and that -- but it's really hard to find what is actually needed at the moment and how it is expected to be done
<msikma> coz_: I was mentioning how very, very few Ubuntu contributors, whether artwork-related or code-related, have any knowledge of the power of marketing and its effect on a system's appeal to the major audience.
<kwwii> it is  recognized as necesarry
<troy_s> kwwii -- that assumes that we don't have a good deal of infrastructure in place.
<troy_s> kwwii -- which we do
<coz_> msikma,  i agree
<troy_s> kwwii -- Daniel has the automated artwork pacaking
<troy_s> for example
<kwwii> that is why there are so many problems from so many people how know so little
<troy_s> kwwii -- I dare say that our 'artists' don't spend enough time sharing their knowledge
<coz_> kwwii, who do you work for?
<kwwii> yeah, I worked a bit on that with daniel as well
<msikma> coz_: and it seems that this means there are very few people around who actually have had something to do with graphic design, as you can hardly be a graphic designer and not know at least the basics of marketing.
<kwwii> coz_: I work for canonical as of next monday
<troy_s> kwwii -- one of the points that he totally missed with Frank -- frank initiated a _lot_ of infrastructure... only to get burned.
<coz_> kwwii, well suggest to them that the team neesa to be hired there
<coz_> needs
<kwwii> troy_s: I warned frank about all of this
<troy_s> TheSheep -- you are spot on with ants.
<troy_s> kwwii -- the infrastructure is more important than the output...
<troy_s> unfortunately 99% of the people only see output.
<kwwii> I told him how I thought this would all work out, and it happened exactly as I saw it
<kwwii> unfortunately
<troy_s> kwwii -- its a longer term approach
<troy_s> short term doesn't cut it.
<kwwii> yepp, and everyone has to be willing to bend
<coz_> kwwii, no
<troy_s> TheSheep: The ants need to prove to the hivemaster that they are capable of fixing things the way he wants it... from there we might have a hope.
<msikma> I really need to make it my priority to make a new website design for Ubuntu.com. It's highly visible. Nobody else is doing it or even thinking about it. I can hardly believe that with the userbase Ubuntu has, nobody has yet risen his hand and said "sir, this is not the right way".
<kwwii> it is not a desktop specific thing in the end
<troy_s> kwwii -- If his sole goal is to put stuff in place, head over to gnome-look
<coz_> kwwii, you need to bend because you have a position that could be threatened with  any other attitude
<coz_>  kwwii  not meant to be a put down by the way
<msikma> I really think that the front page of the site embodies some of the bad things about the current state of Ubuntu artwork.
<troy_s> kwwii -- if he wants to challenge the big boys, he needs to create a creative environment where people are going to try new things.
<kwwii> it is not about creating the best solution for what has existed until now, but to create something better
<kwwii> xactly
<troy_s> kwwii bingo
<troy_s> kwwii This isn't about the status quo f*ck the status quo
<msikma> The placement of elements, the text, the strange and awkward navigation, the misuse of the logo typeface...
<kwwii> coz_: I disagree
<coz_> better in what frame of reference
<coz_> kwwii,  I know you do
<troy_s> kwwii Harness what we have and create something new.  Something that the Apple's and the Microsoft's will chase.
<troy_s> And they DO chase -- (look at wiki's, webservers, virtual workspaces, etc.)
<kwwii> but work outside the boungs
<troy_s> It is just that in terms of design and art,
<kwwii> bouds
<kwwii> ahhh
<kwwii> bounds
<coz_> bounds
<kwwii> yeah
<coz_> lol
<troy_s> the FOSS community is _horrible_ at progressive design.
<coz_> troy_s, excuse my ingornace FOSS?
<msikma> It almost seems like it's against its nature, troy_s.
<kwwii> move ahead and not in paralell
<kwwii> erm spelling
<msikma> Free and Open Source Software.
<coz_> oh
<troy_s> msikma -- some say that... but the reality is that FOSS _works_ in terms of coding
<kwwii> I give up with this keyboard
<troy_s> it produces some TIGHT code
<coz_> what does foss have to do with art?
<troy_s> with CLEAN implementation.
<troy_s> et.c
<msikma> I agree.
<troy_s> Design wise it is bound up in ego, bikeshedding, and power tripping.
<troy_s> Art and design
<troy_s> not to mention a good share of opportunists who need money and try to make something for their own personal gains.
<troy_s> coz_ perhaps you need to think that question through.
<coz_> troy_s, well i see no connection
<TheSheep> I think there is a need for Graphics Design Guidelines, similar to HIG
<troy_s> TheSheep: Process...
<msikma> coz_: FOSS is nice, but if anyone wants FOSS to appeal to a major audience, then nice code isn't gonna cut it.
<troy_s> J.Ives best quote was something like "More than what we produced at Apple I will remember the process."
<troy_s> Process is key.
<coz_> msikma, right I understand that part
<msikma> Joe Next Door doesn't care about well-commented code.
<troy_s> It isn't just about sitting down and pushing fricking pixels.
<TheSheep> troy_s: unless you're a one-man factory
<msikma> Although that would be a nice /start/, troy_s.
<troy_s> msikma -- and they don't care about the sweat and effort that went into the design process for say, the iPod.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Which, when we get to the scaling fallacy, simply doesn't work for the scope of a project like say, Ubuntu
<troy_s> You need help
<troy_s> You need support,
<troy_s> We need collaboration and respect
<coz_> troy_s, I dont' eqate desing for the iPod an artist develpment
<TheSheep> you will get any help if you only can communicate what you need
<msikma> Oh, don't even start. If you even begin to talk about something like that, some might call you a proprietary software troll. It's gotten to the point where you don't even know whether the next random FOSS enthusiast will want to even talk to you.
<troy_s> msikma -- why push pixels until you know that those pixels will hit a target?
<kwwii> coz_: remeber when said that this conversation took place later in the evening, european time?
<kwwii> :-)
<coz_> kwwii,  lol yeah! :)
<coz_> talking at last !
<kwwii> well, +1 for me
<kwwii> :p
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> msikma -- I have a fundamental vison and belief that our computing world is in dire straights thanks to MS and Apple.  I watched it grow from the Apple ] [ into something far ... bigger.
<msikma> When I first joined up here, I was almost ready to take off right away because after I said that I was working as ActionScript programmer, you started lecturing me about how it's proprietary and unusable on your 64-bit platform. That's actually the reason why I initially acted bitter towards you until we resolved things privately.
<troy_s> And I _do_ believe that we need to step up and be vocal about those problems.
<troy_s> msikma -- Yes... I was there.  Ultimately, though, the success to which someone like Adobe banks Flash upon is based on a tool that was developed as an OPEN means of communication -- the browser.
<coz_> admitedly I have come in in the middle fo this conversation and I ma a bit conrfused here
<coz_> I am an artist make not mistake
<troy_s> It is the subtle attempt to steer the fundamental goal of the 'web' information away from what it was _designed_ for into a medium to make money selling development tools.
<coz_> and i DO NOT want a prgrammer involved in decision making for anything that deal sith art
<coz_> inlcudsing shuttleworth
<troy_s> coz_ If that programmer happens to be someone interested in mathmatics/theory/science, like say, leonardo da vinci, I welcome them.
<coz_> excuse my tying
<coz_> typing
<TheSheep> coz_: you need programmers involved, or your design will be impossible
<kwwii> let's alll forget what has happened until now, and work on something new and better
<troy_s> Futher coz_, who do you think is going to design those bloody design implementations?
<TheSheep> coz_: you also need usability experts, or your design will be unusable
<msikma> That's beside the point, troy_s. The point is that I and a whole lot of other people have certain expectations of the Linux crowd, and when you told me those things when I joined up, you confirmed those expectations. They aren't good expectations.
<troy_s> kwwii -- I think we need to keep building it...
<coz_> TheSheep, I need programmers to make the code artists take over from there
<TheSheep> coz_: you can't split it
<kwwii> I for onne am all for moving forward
<TheSheep> coz_: you need to work together
<troy_s> coz_  You won't get that without realizing that we are _all_ on the same team.
<kwwii> msikma: what is "the linux crowd"
<msikma> And that is one of the problems with the Linux community. A really big one. The inability to just keep one's mouth shut at some point and allow people to begin accepting Linux for what it is, and not because other operating systems are "evil" or "wrong" or even "anti-social".
<troy_s> msikma: Fres Software is a little bigger than linux.
<coz_> TheSheep, yes I can i will not presume that i am capable of telling a prgrammer how to code and i will NOT alow programmer to tell me how what is apropriate for the design
<kwwii> the gnome peeps or the xubuntu peeps or kubuntu?
<troy_s> coz_  You dont' think that just about anyone has some element of a good idea regarding art and design?
<troy_s> Wouldn't that be rather like suggesting that someone who say, illustrates for a living has no clue as to what they might want in terms of a software tool?
<coz_> troy_s, calaboration is at the heart of this yet but final dexisions of art NEVER makde by a programmer
<msikma> troy_s: the trillions of dollars made every year with HR systems alone is made partially thanks to Linux, and partially also thanks to free software, but nobody knows or cares. Linux is a fact. Free software is a curiosity. And the reason? Marketing.
<kwwii> the *buntu stuff needs to move forward, no matter what
<msikma> *nobody knows or cares about the latter.
<troy_s> msikma -- regarding the bigger picture -- it is changing rapidly too.
<kwwii> msikma: we can change that if we try
<msikma> You mean regarding HR systems, for example?
<troy_s> kwwii Yes.
<troy_s> kwwii -- but again, it still requires the support in the light of sabdfl.
<TheSheep> people actually start installing linux at homes
<kwwii> not necessarily
<troy_s> kwwii and I think we can all agree that ultimately, that is our biggest strength and biggest difficulty.
<msikma> You aren't going to make free software in general more popular than the term "Linux" in the next 30 years in HR systems. (But that was just an example.)
<troy_s> TheSheep -- gasp -- some of them do all of their work on a FOSS box.
<TheSheep> troy_s: sure, but I mean non-geek people :")
<troy_s> msikma -- If you think that anything will be relevant in 30 years, you are probably mistaken.
<troy_s> ;)
<kwwii> if we make something big enough he cannot/will not disturb it
<msikma> The reason is that Linux is one thing, and therefore it can be marketed. Free software is something different that can much less easily be marketed. It doesn't even have a logo.
<troy_s> TheSheep -- I know of at least 10 people over 60 that run Ubuntu.
<kwwii> but until now, we have never gone so far
<troy_s> all non - geeks. :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: that's great
<kwwii> I bet that even if we have sommething only halfway decent which reunited the parts he would be totally happy
<msikma> Non-geeks over 60 may prove that Ubuntu is usable by people who don't know very much about a computer, but that doesn't prove that its usability is more desirable than that of other systems for people who _do_ know more about computers, troy_s.
<coz_> Ok how about listing here , the things that you guys think needs to be done and the appraoch to getting them done
<kwwii> as long as we showed a ptah
<kwwii> path
<coz_> shortly
<kwwii> forward
<kwwii> anyway
<kwwii> time for bed here
<coz_> kwwii, night guy
<troy_s> nicht kwwii
<troy_s> msikma -- it was the point that in many respect, ubuntu is well past suitable for probably 70% of the population
<kwwii> see you tomorrow coz_ and troy_s and everyon else
<coz_> kwwii, sure sleep well
<TheSheep> msikma: the problem with people who thingk they do know a lot about computers is that they in fact only know a lot about windows
<msikma> troy_s: personally, I'd want 70% of the population to become more acquainted with computers and actually getting more things done with them than just basic e-mail sending.
<troy_s> dare i say a good chunk of the 'common computer users' use is 1) Entertainment 2) Communication (email and im) 3) Browsing internet.
<coz_> TheSheep, I have a small business and i do a lot of conerting people over to ubuntu
<coz_> converting
<troy_s> msikma - agree again.
<msikma> TheSheep: untrue. Lots of people who know lots about computers will be able to adapt easily. They don't just "know Windows", they understand computers.
<coz_> they love it they deal with well
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-16
<troy_s> Look at the long term fundamental strengths of Ubuntu from a traditional marketing perspective:
<coz_> ease of use
<troy_s>  1) It is ethical (bikeshed about sabdfl, but ultimately, it is a free and open platform)
<coz_> ease of installation
<msikma> And it's a a fact that /these/ people are going to become more relevant constantly. We are constantly becoming more acquainted with technology, mostly thanks to the Web. The one huge killer app for personal computers. Everybody has a computer now. Heck, everybody has two.
<TheSheep> msikma: I thought I'm pretty universal with all the windows and unix stuff, when I had to learn to admin IBM mainfrmes. This opened my eyes -- the knowledge of 'computer experts' is so tiny a fraction...
<troy_s>  1) it performs the needs of a good sizable percentage of computer usage.  more if your knowledge is greater.
<msikma> TheSheep: that's sort of outside of the scope of this system, though.
<troy_s> (fecking wiki syntax :) 1. 1. 1. )
<coz_> :)
<troy_s>  3) Contributing to FOSS helps EVERYONE on EVERY platform in EVERY architecture
<TheSheep> troy_s: moin has non-standard syntax for a wiki
<troy_s> TheSheep I still find myself listing in it.
<msikma> There is only one architecture [that really matters for a desktop operating system] .
<troy_s> msikma -- that is dark ages mentality
<troy_s> amd proved that paradigm wrong
<troy_s> and others will follow
<msikma> That will not be true in the future, but just thought I'd throw that out there.
<TheSheep> msikma: and you're sure it won't change? :)
<troy_s> the entire 64bit revolution is now all AMD
<TheSheep> msikma: ah, ok
<coz_> msikma, no every os has its place and uses
<troy_s> Despite Intel, IBM's etc, attempts.
<msikma> I'm not a processor expert, but I've heard reports that AMD's new line of processors is unlikely to outperform Intel's new line of processors.
<troy_s> I guess fundamentally I see computing as important as politics.  I prefer to live in a free and democratic society, and I also choose to be vocal about the shortcomings of societies that don't abide by such rules.
<troy_s> msikma -- that has nothing to do with amd64 architecture
<coz_> msikma, that is a performance battle that hs been going on allways one year intel the next amd
<troy_s> msikma -- the architecture that every 64bit box uses in mainstream now is AMD's.
<msikma> I agree that people should become more aware of things like that, troy_s, but I don't contribute to Ubuntu for that reason [alone] .
<troy_s> What I am saying, is that if we show the light to people -- that using say
<troy_s> open codecs
<troy_s> open standards
<troy_s> etc.
<msikma> What is "the light"? Define it.
<troy_s> Solves a lot of problems -- companies don't need to spend money developing and bug shooting drivers for example.
<coz_> troy_s, ok are you part of the marketing team?
<troy_s> msikma -- the FOSS approach -- it works.  Instead of a company spending potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars on office -- use OpenOffice for example and write further gnu protected code to reach their paricular needs.
<troy_s> Release it back into the wild, and poof... instantly viable business sense...
<troy_s> Costs go down.
<troy_s> Public at large benefits
<msikma> If you'd ask me what "the light" is, I'd bounce the ball back and say that it's something that can't be attained until some key structural points of the computing world are brought to the free software world. It's coming there, but it still has a few hurdles to overcome.
<troy_s> Data is long term
<troy_s> etc.
<coz_> troy_s, not necessarily
<msikma> And one of these hurdles is something that I can help Ubuntu overcome.
<msikma> Which is marketing. And design.
<msikma> That's something we must all focus on.
<coz_> troy_s, every large compnay has an IT department that writes things specific to the needs of that compnay
<troy_s> msikma -- theoretically.  Although when you start talking about art and design, you are often bound up with ego and self-marketing.
<coz_> it may be open source but that does not mean free
<troy_s> by 'you'
<troy_s> i mean the 'you at large' not msikma
<troy_s> :)
<coz_> and realesing to the public may be non  free to use
<troy_s> coz_  GNU free.  Assured freedom
<troy_s> which is again, not free in a utopian sense, but free to the best that our adversarial society can allow for right now.
<coz_> troy_s, well i am not a propnent of FREE software for professioanl use
<coz_> I want it to be a coslty application becasue it will be better
<troy_s> coz_  but you probably don't have sufficient knowledge on that front to be making such bold claims.
<troy_s> lol
<msikma> troy_s: it all matters not. It's one of the hurdles, and one way or another, we're going to have to overcome it, or we cannot reach the finish.
<coz_> oh yes I do
<troy_s> coz_  Good thing you aren't running Google.  :)
<coz_> troy_s, myu point is that , as an artist for example, if I relied on gimp, i wold fail
<msikma> All else does not matter, and I'm not going to get involved in anything else.
<troy_s> msikma -- but that will take planning and documentation -- something it seems that artists /programmers/etc don't do so well.
<troy_s> coz_  as a trained artist myself, I could care less about what program is available.
<msikma> Wikipedia is organized too.
<coz_> mm troy_s as a digital artist, i do care what is avaialbe
<troy_s> msikma -- I fear your quick needs will not be met.
<msikma> It's possible with only a huge amount of people and a lot of desire.
<troy_s> coz_  ever heard of imagemagick?
<coz_> troy_s, not enough
<TheSheep> imagemagick++
<troy_s> coz_  you will be hard pressed to find a more powerful tool anywhere.
<troy_s> coz_  commercial or otherwise.
<TheSheep> and python-gimp is kewl too
<coz_> well corel painter in my mind is the absolute application
<troy_s> coz_  sometimes knowledge goes a long way.
<coz_> for a painter
<troy_s> coz_  and if you want to paint
<troy_s> coz_  paint.  scanners are cheap.
<troy_s> :)
<coz_> troy_s, that is why I am talkning to  you
<coz_> scanners ?
<msikma> Ironically, I just looked up imagemagick and I found an example page that shows off the filters it has.
<troy_s> coz_  personally, as someone who knows someone who graduated from the royal academy
<msikma> (That's not exactly what I'm looking for when I click on "examples".)
<troy_s> i would never suggest 'painting' on the computer.
<troy_s> msikma -- it is a bit of a huge creature to try and describe.
<TheSheep> troy_s: real world paint lacks undo ;)
<coz_> troy_s,  as someon trained at CMu i would asy your are foolish for listening tohim
<troy_s> msikma -- documents do ... stink :)(
<troy_s> TheSheep -- that's part of the medium
<msikma> troy_s: it doesn't exactly make me want to use it.
<troy_s> coz_  LOL.
<msikma> There is no "screenshots" link to be found in their menu.
<troy_s> wtf is the cmu in long format?  university in there...
<troy_s> creative...
<troy_s> ?
<TheSheep> troy_s: reminds me of those monks making mandalas from colored sand
<msikma> I don't even need to look further to conclude that this project too is suffering from a good sense of marketing.
<troy_s> msikma -- it is a tool.  like xlm
<msikma> So?
<troy_s> msikma -- unto itself, it does nothing.
<TheSheep> msikma: imagemagick is a command line tool
<msikma> Photoshop is a tool, except that one is used by millions.
<troy_s> msikma -- who cares?
<coz_> troy_s, everyone should care
<msikma> You don't care that there aren't millions using what you claim is a powerful tool?
<troy_s> msikma -- Ultimately, it is the tool in an artists hand.
<TheSheep> msikma: a screenshot would show a black screen with some text L:)
<troy_s> msikma -- knowledge and agency.
<coz_> troy_s, with that I agree
<troy_s> In the end, the tool matters not.
<coz_> agreed
<troy_s> It is the execution within a medium.
<troy_s> And that, is what art is fundamentally about.
<msikma> Then an examples page, TheSheep. Not one that shows off a bunch of stupid filters, but one that shows off how easy it is to use it to create powerful command line instructions with which to do alterations to an image that matter.
<coz_> it is the final composition that is importatnt
<troy_s> msikma -- you probably wont' find that.
<TheSheep> troy_s: well, but in the real world, the choice of the medium plays some role :)
<troy_s> msikma which probably addresses why millions aren't using it because they can't see it in 10 seconds.
<coz_> TheSheep,  ins waht way?
<TheSheep> msikma: it has a man page...
<msikma> troy_s: yes, and that's EXACTLY what's wrong with a huge part of the FOSS community.
<troy_s> TheSheep: Some.  Installations might argue against that.  (Installation art that is)
<coz_> installation art yah not art
<troy_s> it is what is wrong with us... either you are a part of it or you aren't.
<troy_s> if you are, there is no one to blame but yourself.
<troy_s> coz_  weird grey line in there somewhere.
<coz_> troy_s, not in my mind it is like making a basket
<troy_s> anyways, you bright feckers have kept me from finishing my chores damn you.
<troy_s> coz_ blur the lines.
<TheSheep> :P
<TheSheep> troy_s: you're welcome
<troy_s> coz_ every time someone says 'art is this' some artist comes along and kicks it in the ass.
<troy_s> hence movements.
<coz_> troy_s, true but infrequwntly
<TheSheep> coz_: *every* time :)
<troy_s> coz_  infrequently that the people gather under a collective banner and form an entire movement perhaps, but frequently with regards to styles and tendencies.
<coz_> but infrequently
<coz_> troy_s, it is difficult to state and represent clearly in text format what all of us might agree with if face to face
<msikma> Anyway. This discussion is over for me if someone can tell me how many more years it's going to take for the FOSS community to realize that they shouldn't whine about fewer people using their products and simply start thinking straight to mend the problem instead.
<msikma> The problem isn't the quality of the code or the things that the programs can do.
<troy_s> coz_ and on Gimp-- i would agree that out of the box it might seem like it has some shortcomings, but to someone with the want to experiment, there is little it cant do that photoshop can... excepting 16bit per channel colour depth currently... imagemagick handles that well though.
<TheSheep> the problem is too many peole claiming to know what the problem is ;0
<troy_s> msikma -- i think that is where you don't see it -- they are.
<coz_> troy_s, yes but struggling with an application is not good
<troy_s> msikma many just carry on and produce
<troy_s> they just create
<coz_> either it is workable or not
<troy_s> griping about things wont fix it.
<coz_> gripe gripe gripe :)
<troy_s> coz_ no, but again, i know many artists who like the challenge.
<troy_s> coz_ i guess it depends on your art heritage :)
<msikma> They create with no suitable design goals, no real desire to have a major crowd use their products, no real attempt to overthrow the large commercial alternatives that people are massively using.
<troy_s> msikma and where does firefox fit into this?
<msikma> Either they don't try or they're simply really ignorant and fail miserably at every attempt.
<troy_s> msikma apach?
<troy_s> msikma etc
<coz_> msikma, agreed !
<msikma> Not all of the FOSS community has this problem, I admit.
<coz_> firefox?
<msikma> And that's great. Firefox is an excellent example.
<msikma> But the majority of the community has no clue.
<troy_s> it isn't perfect either... evolutionary design
<coz_> what ?
<TheSheep> msikma: is "success" when you program does what you want, or when it is used by many people?
<coz_> i ahve no clue
<troy_s> but again, you need to CREATE the thigns
<coz_> TheSheep, great question
<troy_s> you can't just talk about it
<troy_s> you must create it
<msikma> TheSheep: to me, or to you?
<troy_s> create create create create
<coz_> msikma, to the whole picture
<msikma> To the world?
<msikma> Then the latter.
<TheSheep> msikma: to you, I know what it is to me ;)
<troy_s> msikma -- i don't know if i would be so bold as to pretending to know what the world thinks meaning is.
<TheSheep> msikma: the people who make up "the world" will be gone in 50
<troy_s> case in point, of the four people here talking, your statement doesn't represent two of them
<coz_> asl will the programs
<troy_s> and bandying all of the terms that i see on mailing lists like 'professional' and such
<troy_s> is silly...
<msikma> TheSheep: does that mean you'll happily wait for 50 years until Ubuntu becomes popular?
<msikma> Seriously, that's not an argument.
<troy_s> because if it comes down to credibility based on resume, most people should probably shut up :)
<coz_> I can pass that test esily troy_s
<TheSheep> msikma: I don't really care if it's popular, as long as it's good and I can use it
<msikma> The reality is now. I make money and put food on the table today. I'll be retired in 50 years.
<troy_s> _most_
<msikma> TheSheep: caring about yourself isn't going to make Ubuntu popular with Joe Next Door.
<msikma> And that is something that the FOSS community must realize.
<coz_> msikma, well i agree again amazingly:)
<troy_s> do you realize it msikma?
<TheSheep> msikma: but why do you want to be popular with Joe?
<troy_s> are you part of the FOSS community?
<msikma> troy_s: do I need to be?
<troy_s> I know I realize it and probably consider myself a part of it
<troy_s> well you speak in vague generalities as to this 'us versus them' mentality
<troy_s> what is FOSS?
<troy_s> I think there are many people who would agree that it needs to grow in areas
<troy_s> but again,
<TheSheep> there is no spoon
<troy_s> that's just a good idea
<troy_s> until someone shows the execution thereof
<msikma> TheSheep: because there is a problem. It's currently bug #1 on Launchpad. This problem can be mended, but it requires that we do make Ubuntu popular with that same Joe.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 1 in ichthux "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
<troy_s> if you had free reign, which is what you have
<troy_s> solve it.
<msikma> Joe knows chkdsk and edlin, but not fsck or ed.
<troy_s> solve it
<troy_s> see my point?
<troy_s> you have your ability to fix things
<coz_> in my opinion this kind of conversation must be conducted face to face if any solutions are to be realized mut my opinion
<troy_s> and to fix things, you must do them.
<troy_s> execution
<TheSheep> msikma: you're making quite a few assumptions here
<troy_s> coz_ too old school.  dated.
<troy_s> coz_  simply doesn't work nor happen often enough
<TheSheep> shall I bring up a teamspeak server? :)
<coz_> troy_s, mmm interesting outdated perception:)
<msikma> It's past midnight here. I'm going to leave soon.
<troy_s> coz_  for example, you and I probably would never have met in real life, nor even ever known of each other.
<troy_s> great chat boyz
<troy_s> now work on fixing the problem
<coz_> yes true what has that to do with now getting togetrher
<troy_s> it is only as difficult as implementing how _you_ think it should be done.
<TheSheep> thanks for your discussion, I need to think about it now :)
<troy_s> ditto
<troy_s> TheSheep: and get me those blasted sketches
<troy_s> TheSheep: check that link that msikma gave me
<msikma> To reply to troy_s: I don't really care what the FOSS community is, actually. Everybody will explain it differently. The point is that Ubuntu is open source software and that it comes with a plethora of great applications that can be installed with just one terminal command. It's something. It's different from freeware or shareware.
<troy_s> it has some pretty incredible work.
<TheSheep> troy_s: where?
<troy_s> msikma -- I think that is the point
<coz_> mm too frustrating for my an ultimate goal to be acheived
<troy_s> TheSheep: documents on the wiki
<troy_s> coz_  no such creature.  just evolution.
<msikma> There is but one thing that matters and it is currently the fact that we have a huge amount of excellent software just waiting to be used by people who can genuinely enjoy it, but the baby won't open its mouth.
<troy_s> coz_ do something now that works, build on it.
<msikma> We need a golden spoon for it to open its mouth.
<troy_s> msikma -- i think it is happening
<msikma> We don't have gold smelters.
<coz_> troy_s, I am alot older that you may realize
<troy_s> if you can develop a way for it to happen faster or better
<troy_s> i would say do it.
<msikma> Fine, so I will
<troy_s> coz_ I am right beside you.
<troy_s> msikma -- execution.
<troy_s> coz_ I was suggesting that we don't really know where any of 'this' is heading... in terms of technology
<troy_s> but we need to make certain that the bed made so that it can happen.
<msikma> It's unfortunate that I'm not some kid who got bought out by Google for billions of USD because he decided to make a fancy Web 3.0 recipe search engine or whatever.
<msikma> I gotta go to work tomorrow.
<coz_> troy_s, and how do you conntect that with art?
<msikma> I also work besides work, so that leaves me with little time to do anything else but complain like some old guy
<coz_> msikma, hey I am an old guy:)
<msikma> And make my own stuff, but they're not competing for default artwork in Ubuntu anyway.
<msikma> It's small potatoes.
<coz_> msikma, and you will be old someday too lol
<msikma> You know, I'll try, troy_s.
<msikma> I can't promise anything, but I'll do something.
<troy_s> msikma LOL
<troy_s> exactly... if we team up and build
<troy_s> we have a hope
* coz_ soaks his dentures in efferdent !
<coz_> not really
<troy_s> coz_  you are an artist and you probably get grumpy about situtations... consider that technology is one of those situations that might be preventing future growth if we let it lie in the hands of two bonkers companies.
<troy_s> coz_ and that relates to art.
<msikma> Yomar is going to teach me calligraphy, by the way, troy. :P
<troy_s> coz_ but art in the traditional sense might be evolving too.
<troy_s> msikma -- awsome!
<msikma> In exchange for me teaching him HTML.
<troy_s> great trade
<coz_> troy_s, I understand that perception I want critical thinking and possible solutions for this
<msikma> Yeah, it's really neat.
<troy_s> coz_ but again, when you turn off the computer
<troy_s> coz_ what is accomplished?
<troy_s> have you documented it?
<troy_s> have you changed anything?
<troy_s> have you worked to spread anything newly thought up?
<coz_> troy_s, the work of the dayu
<coz_> day
<coz_> that is wha tis accomplished
<troy_s> in relationship to something such as Ubuntu however, it requires building / creating / executing.
<msikma> I think Yomar might be concerned with the state of computer software if he knew what was going on. He's a real environmentalist for one thing.
<msikma> Well, I'm leaving now
<troy_s> and _that_ msikma
<coz_> bye guy!
<troy_s> is exactly the power of knoweldge
<troy_s> take care my friend
<msikma> yeah, see you later
<troy_s> spread the word and keep the faith.
<troy_s> so coz_, i would suggest that you figure out a way to formalize your dissention.
<troy_s> (like any good artist)
<troy_s> ;)
<coz_> I have no real dissention other that fighting censorship at this point
<troy_s> lol
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> coz_  oh yeah, moderators for the forums don't live in here.
<troy_s> talk to ubuntudaemon
<troy_s> he could probably help you out.
<troy_s> but i know not for certain
<troy_s> coz_  you should probably find a group to put your talents to work with in the community.
<coz_> troy_s, no i am not concentrating on justubuntu censorship but ignorant americans in general
<troy_s> coz_  by the way,
<troy_s> i don't know if you are interested
<troy_s> but if you _really_ want to try and change things...
<troy_s> you might be able to greatly help out say, the GIMP or inkscape, by developing something amazing with it.
<troy_s> as a challenge ...
<troy_s> some shallow people DO care about screenshots and how someone made something.
<coz_> troy_s, are you refering to a piece of work?
<troy_s> and that is where you could make a sizable impression.
<coz_> or programming
<troy_s> coz_ absolutely.
<troy_s> a piece of work
<troy_s> a series
<troy_s> perhaps
<coz_> troy_s, done that laready
<coz_> not appreciated
<troy_s> then when someone says 'you can only produce something good with photoshop' you can say shut up.
<troy_s> in gimp?
<coz_> yep
<troy_s> i would love to see your work... have a site?
<coz_> nope but I can show youone fo a seies of african masks that i did
<coz_> hold on
<troy_s> tarball them all
<troy_s> and email them to me ok?
<troy_s> you can use jpg output or whatever
<troy_s> i don't need the xcf's
<TheSheep> troy_s: I'm sorry, I can't find any link in the backlog :(
<coz_> nah i can show you one i am not interested in showing off or proving myself
<TheSheep> troy_s: would you paste it?
<troy_s> TheSheep -- do you have your launchpad set up with your email?
<troy_s> You should get updates everytime something changes
<TheSheep> hmm...
<troy_s> (assuming it isn't flagged as non trivial)
<troy_s> coz_ it isn't about proving yourself
<TheSheep> troy_s: checking mail...
<troy_s> coz_ i am genuinely interested in what you have generated
<coz_> hold on have to reduce size for image shack to accept it
<TheSheep> checking the spam box...
<troy_s> coz_ you can tarball them all... hopefully you have more than one.
<troy_s> TheSheep -- err...
<troy_s> TheSheep: It is one of the reasons that Launchpad is so good at what it does.
<troy_s> You get instant updates.
<troy_s> At any rate, the changes are on the official guidelines
<coz_> troy_s, it is a series of 15 works
<TheSheep> troy_s: I don't :/
<troy_s> coz_ terrific
<coz_> had them posted on the forums for about 5 months
<troy_s> TheSheep your spam protection is apparently working overtime or your bloody email is wrong at LP
<coz_> a few people liked them but they are relistic, nearly photorealistic works
<troy_s> coz_ I am extremely infrequent to the forums, and i never travel into the galleries.
<coz_> well gimp is haveing a difficult time reducing the file size here hold on
<troy_s> coz_ imagemagick :)
<troy_s> do you know the syntax coz_?
<troy_s> coz_ sudo apt-get install imagemagick
<troy_s> coz_ then type "montage *.jpg" or whatever
<troy_s> and it will create a thumbnail
<troy_s> image
<coz_> troy_s, I have imagemagic
<troy_s> try montage -v *.jpg mythumbnails.png
<troy_s> or something to that extent
<coz_> I will get some of these reduced and post them for you at somepoint they are very large files becasue they are ech 300dpi in resoultion
<coz_> so give me time here
<troy_s> yes... imagemagick will crunch them fast
<troy_s> what format are they in?
<coz_> png
<troy_s> try that montage trick
<troy_s> here... let me create some thumbnails syntax for a reasonable level...
<coz_> ill give it a wirls
<troy_s> try this:
<troy_s> cd into the dir with them
<troy_s> montage -verbose -geometry 300 *.png contact_sheet.png
<coz_> ok hold on
<troy_s> the specification of only 300 will properly keep aspect ratio
<troy_s> if you put say, 320x300 it will stretch to fit
<troy_s> (again, that is a very simple ugly approach, but you can do far far more with it if you care to)
<troy_s> it should provide status output
<troy_s> if you type -monitor as an option
<troy_s> it will give you % completed of each image.
<troy_s> as in
<troy_s> montage -monitor -geometry 300 *.png contact_sheet.png
<troy_s> coz_ let me know how it goes... You should learn imagemagick... it is an amazing tool if you do any digital production work.
<coz_> troy_s, well it is in the process of rezizing the images right now
<troy_s> great
<troy_s> it is also lightening fast
<troy_s> as there is no gui to hog resources
<troy_s> etc
<troy_s> it will tap your processor to the limit and use every cycle.
<coz_> still too lage to poist
<troy_s> coz_ monitor option is very handy -- it sometimes seems like it is doing nothing when blurring a large image...
<troy_s> ok...
<coz_> large to post
<troy_s> email me the thumbnail generated
<coz_> ok
<coz_> address
<troy_s> what size is the thumbnail file my brother?
<troy_s> troy dot sobotka at gmail dot com
<coz_> 3.6
<troy_s> 3.6 megs?
<coz_> yep
<troy_s> ok great.
<troy_s> ship it on over...
<troy_s> woot
<coz_> hold on getting mail error
<coz_> troy_s,
<coz_> ok it is off, these were meant as illustrations to depict certain african tribes ceremonial msks
<coz_> i slipped in another one nonrelated by accident
<coz_> have you recieved ti?
<coz_> troy_s, did you recieve it?
<coz_> k
<troy_s> coz_ sorry.. i was catching up on husbandry dutites
<troy_s> duties even
<coz_> lol
<coz_> i truly understand
<troy_s> had some outstanding bloody chores that were forgotten during our conversation
<troy_s> its coming down now i believe
<coz_> well they are off and one got slipped that is unrelated also these were meatn stricly as illustrations not final compisitons
<troy_s> TheSheep you still here?
<TheSheep> troy_s: yes
<troy_s> coz_ Don't sweat it.  Again, I am pretty good with mocks etc.
<coz_> troy_s, I believe you already know the difference between the two>?
<TheSheep> troy_s: for a short while, it's getting really late here.
<troy_s> coz_ is that all gimpwork?
<coz_> yeah except for one or tow that Ihad to take into painter to get the proper brush dtokes i wanted
<troy_s> TheSheep: Did you see that head work?
<coz_> strokes
<troy_s> by hammerdesign?
<troy_s> coz_  you do know that you can control the rotation etc of the brush stroke in gimp (like photoshop) but it takes a little more knowledge to get to it.
<troy_s> i know what you mean by getting the stroke you want
<troy_s> those are wonderful works though
<coz_> troy_s, yes but painter has natural brushes that are just amatter of choose and use
<coz_> troy_s, thanks
<troy_s> coz_ yes.. there are a few very good brush compilations out there in gimp land
<troy_s> if you do a little searching.
<troy_s> i don't know if it would be of any interest to you.
<coz_> troy_s, i wll have to find natural brushed for gimp I have searched with little luck but continue the serach
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> if you are meaning something with an organic tone
<coz_> so there it is
<troy_s> they have them
<troy_s> i take it the fighters
<troy_s> is the one you touched?
<coz_> again only illustrations but worht something
<troy_s> indeed.
<troy_s> it just extends my firm belief that the tool matters not
<coz_> troy_s, yes
<troy_s> it is the person in control of them
<coz_> troy_s, absolutely I agree
<coz_> but tools help
<troy_s> which is why it would be nice to see you generate more work
<troy_s> have you tried inkscape?
<troy_s> _a_mazing tool.
<coz_> troy_s, oh yes as well as xara extreme and sodipodi
<troy_s> xara is very good
<alefteris> is there any new prososed artwork for feisty available?
<troy_s> the thing that is most impressive in inkscape is a little known feature
<coz_> troy_s, not until they support svg it isn't
<troy_s> that you might be interested in
<troy_s> alefteris: no
<troy_s> alefteris: and there might not be any chage
<troy_s> change
<troy_s> coz_ the 'calligraphy' tool with a graphics tablet
<troy_s> is pretty incredible for freehand work
<coz_> I have intuos 3 tablet here
<troy_s> as you can adjust the 'tremor' on the brush
<troy_s> and it will track angle as well
<troy_s> you should give it a try -- it is incredible for doing a sort of pen and ink styling
<alefteris> troy_s, why is that? there is no interest or is there some other reason?
<coz_> yes true
<troy_s> but the tremor is the power -- it lets you create very organic looking strokes.
<coz_> alefteris, conflicts in philosophy
<troy_s> alefteris: long long long long story.  it is largely because sabdfl doesn't believe he can communicate with people who live apart from him.
<troy_s> alefteris: among a plethora of other details
<coz_> for sure
<troy_s> alefteris: so he is using Cliff -- the fellow who did the dapper work
<troy_s> www.spacejunkdesigns.com
<troy_s> i think is his site
<coz_> nope wrong link
<troy_s> erm let me try
<troy_s> http://www.spacejunkdesign.com/
<troy_s> warning it is shitty old flash
<troy_s> so warm up your older 32 bit browsers
<coz_> well decent illustrator
<coz_> troy_s, so this cliff live close to shuttlworth?
<alefteris> yeah, quite good work.. its a shame he came up with this tereble default wallpaper..
<alefteris> if it was his..
<coz_> alefteris, lol
<troy_s> apparently
<coz_> makes you wonder?
<troy_s> alefteris: hard to say
<troy_s> alefteris: i don't know if cliff's design is as strong as it needs be or if shuttleworth got heavily involved.
<troy_s> the wallpaper on dapper is definitely cliff's
<alefteris> hehe
<coz_> troy_s, poor choice even for dapper considering his illustrations
<troy_s> alefteris: ultimately, i don't have too much faith in anyone who relies on flash to deliver their work
<troy_s> good work should stand up alone on a bloody html document.
<alefteris> being in space doesnt mean that you can make designs coming from space
<troy_s> also, i find that the consistency is completely vacuous across the Usplash for Dapper, the Logon splash, and the wallpaper
<troy_s> all created by him
<troy_s> so I would hold him accountable... there is no consistency between the three.
<troy_s> at all.
<alefteris> I also hate flash
<alefteris> exept from flash video that is
<alefteris> ;)
<troy_s> It is just a sad trick that I find tries to pull people away from evaluating the actual content.
<troy_s> a gimmick
<troy_s> for example, i just looked at coz_'s work from a thumbnail created in 10 seconds
<troy_s> and you can tell that it is done by a competent hand.
<troy_s> the medium is not the message unless you intend to make it so :)
<coz_> troy_s, well I truly appreciate that few have said so
<alefteris> where can i see coz_  work?
<coz_> alefteris, no longer online
<troy_s> coz_ I think you need to not worry about what people think (as you probably don't already) nor expect a response
<troy_s> coz_  Just keep doing what you do and give the people agency to see it.
<coz_> troy_s, i never do unless they censor me :)
<troy_s> for example, twiddle with the montage
<troy_s> and put your gimpwork up on the wiki
<troy_s> in your home page -- takes about 3 seconds...
<coz_> troy_s, another learning curve oh no ! ;)
<troy_s> It isn't so much about 'showing off' but rather showing what you can do in GIMP assuming you shut up about it not being photoshop etc.
<troy_s> and just get down to business like any self - respecting artist would when faced with a new challenge.
<coz_> well troy_s true but i am honest about which works are done with what apps
<troy_s> coz_ wiki's are so bloody powerful -- you will appreciate it after you put your stuff up.
<troy_s> coz_ as you should be... and realistically it doesn't really matter to anyone with any sort of fundamental training / skillset
<coz_> troy_s, I will try I am just in the middle of family issues right nwo and cannot be bothered with showing off which is not in my natire to begin with but i will look into it :)
<troy_s> but to a few naive folks, those small details can make them choose an operating system
<troy_s> coz_ again, it isn't about showing off... for example, xara has a page to show what can be done with their app etc.
<coz_> troy_s, I agree and that is the resaon I poisted my work
<coz_> not to show off but what one can acheive
<troy_s> the best thing you can do is just ignore them all and keep trundling along... building a body of work using a given app.
<troy_s> exactly
<coz_> troy_s, however if i am to be censored i see no point
<troy_s> realistically, in a good set of hands, the tools can be made to achieve very good effects
<troy_s> coz_ that's the forums
<troy_s> ignore them
<troy_s> the devs do
<troy_s>  :)
<coz_> troy_s, I know I have to get into that mind set
<troy_s> coz_ I think as a trained artist, you might need to really embrace that.
<troy_s> coz_ The 'community' is rather like a meandering octopus
<coz_> troy_s, you are of course correct  i will reconsider
<alefteris> Another thing i hated is that the blubuntu artwork had some much banding on it. I realy like blue but I didn;t use it just because of the strong branding...
<troy_s> it will murgle around doing nothing for a great period of time, but then when a good idea comes along, it strikes with lightning ferocity and speed.
<coz_> well irc has a tendency to get to me after a while so I neda break for real !
<troy_s> alefteris: the banding is two fold
<troy_s> alefteris: 1) algorithm used when converting from SVG to PNG
<coz_> i agree but I will return later honest for more discussion need to eat drinick and get offirc :)
<troy_s> alefteris: which is much different in inkscape now
<troy_s> alefteris: there is a small part of banding that cannot be overcome (16.7 million colours to the human eyes 17.3)
<troy_s> alefteris: Ultimately though, true gradients in the real world are very much dithered, and a good alg should dither and us sub-sampling.
<troy_s> phew.
<troy_s> long, but you hopefully get the point.
<alefteris> troy_s, sorry I meant branding :)
<troy_s> Ugh
<troy_s> shoot
<troy_s> lllllol
<alefteris> hehe
<troy_s> alefteris: Do you know how to use Bzr?
<alefteris> nop
<alefteris> whats that?
<troy_s> Erk.  no source svg's
<troy_s> Are you on the mailing list?
<troy_s> In the holy trinity of Ubuntu dev - Launchpad.net Bazaar and the Wiki
<troy_s> Bazaar lets you check out hte sources
<troy_s> let me send a mail off to who
<alefteris> ok i know that you could take the source files, edit them, take out what you dont like and use them
<alefteris> but most people will not bother doing that
<alefteris> and i dont get the point of making an alternative color variation of the ubuntu theme and then putting all that extra branding on it
<troy_s> alefteris: No, but if you learned bzr
<troy_s> you could push revisions
<troy_s> and it would become part of the package
<troy_s> and removing the branding is about 3 seconds.
<troy_s> Follow me?
<troy_s> Bzr tracks the actual packages and source for Ubuntu -- so you could offer an alternate wallpaper for blubuntu and push it.
<alefteris> so what that bzr, a versioning system for graphics?
<troy_s> It is a versioning system like CVS SVN for everything
<alefteris> a its the one ubuntu uses..
<troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/Bzr is the start of the document
<troy_s> I was writing for art folks etc
<troy_s> It has enough information in it to pull sources
<troy_s> Hopefully it will be clear enough for you to understand and use easily alefteris
<alefteris> are there any desktop integration tools available for bazzar?
<alefteris> troy_s, nice doc
<troy_s> alefteris: do you mean gui tools?
<troy_s> they are being worked on
<troy_s> literally though
<troy_s> it is exactly one line to pull a source stream
<troy_s> and one to push
<troy_s> three if you commit changes and push
<troy_s> ;)
<alefteris> ok, i dint get it. I know you can pull the sources, make you changes, rebuild and intall localy..
<alefteris> but to commit what? and where? as a differend branch of a package?
<alefteris> im doing crazy talk here, dont mind me.. :)
<troy_s> alefteris: basically
<troy_s> alefteris: in order to push to an official package, you will need to be on the proper team
<troy_s> that said,
<troy_s> you can pull a 'branch'
<troy_s> using relatively the same syntax
<alefteris> wall_troy_03.png is nice :)
<troy_s> then PUSH the branch into your launchpad home
<troy_s> erk?
<troy_s> where is this?
<troy_s> once you have pushed a 'branch'
<alefteris> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/EdgyProposals/Summary_18JULY2006
<troy_s> you can notify the powers that be and they can merge from it...
<troy_s> oh lord... that is ages old.
<troy_s> that mess was an attempt to have shuttlebot be happy
<troy_s> in hindsight, it was a foolish attempt now knowing what his goals are.
<troy_s> frank ended up pushing this for edgy:
<alefteris> well from the rest of them, i like it best
<troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Produce/Incoming/CurrentDefault
<troy_s> Had we not been so encumbered with sab's preferences, it probably would have yielded greater work.
<troy_s> but alas...
<troy_s> c'est la vie.
<alefteris> did human thunderbird theme made it?
<troy_s> erm?
<troy_s> for feisty?
<troy_s> or edgy?
<alefteris> Here is something for feisty: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Feisty_test_GDM. uaauu, extraordinary ;)
<troy_s> Yep.  Won't happen.
<troy_s> There are a million GDMs out there... the only hope for that is if the author tries to get it into Universe etc.
<troy_s> and again, it is a rather hap-hazard design approach to attempt to 'gather' the bits of good work out there.
<alefteris> everytime i need some artwork from edgy i cant remember where i found it.. Could someone colect them at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Archives
<alefteris> yeah, its not something new by any means
<alefteris> where is the sources of the current edgy artwork located in the wiki?
<alefteris> im looking for the ubuntu circle
<troy_s> alefteris: You still around?
<troy_s> The sources for the default edgy artwork I believe are in the ubuntu-artwork package (metapackage)
<troy_s> track it down through bzr.
<troy_s> alefteris: The Ubuntu CoF is available through the DiYMarketing page.
<lapo> hi
<BHSPitMonkey> yo
<alefteris> how can i export a svg to pixmap and be 50% scaled with inkscape?
<kwwii> alefteris: in the export dialogue
<alefteris> sorry s/pixmap/bitmap
<kwwii> simply reduce the pixel size in the options (reducing one size will automatically reduce the other)
<kwwii> file-->export bitmap ... in the pop-up, change one of the values in the "bitmap size" part
<alefteris> kwwii, ok thanks, i though this way would crop the image :|
<kwwii> happy to help ;-)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-17
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<Viper550> you've seen that new Ubuntu Windows Installer prototype?
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-18
<coz_> mmm looks like very few people ..only  logged in?
<coz_> 14
<woodwizzle> in a gtkrc file how do I change the color of the text of tooltips? not just the background
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-19
<troy_s> woodwizzle
<troy_s> probably try the text[colour]  stanza
<coz_> evening all :)
<BHSPitLappy> yo
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-20
<rpedro> hello
<coz_> rpedro, hey guy :)
<rpedro> is it possible that somewhere I can download the edgy background from before the final release?
<rpedro> the one that was pulled
<coz_> rpedro, you mean that nice medium brown one?
<rpedro> don't remember very well, but I think yeah :)
<coz_> rpedro, I don't know I believe that was from hoary version but Ihve the fixed version avialable
<rpedro> not the one that is available as an alternative in feisty though
<coz_> rpedro, let me post the one i have see if that is the one you want hold on a few
<rpedro> I think it was a similar color, but better design
<rpedro> ok
<coz_> rpedro, see if thi sis theone you  mean  http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/435/wartyfinalwsubuntuqm6.png
<rpedro> yes it is :D
<rpedro> it's perfect
<coz_> rpedro, ok that is my fixed version :)
<rpedro> thank you
<coz_> rpedro, no problem
<rpedro> you say this was made for warty originally?
<coz_> rpedro, I believe it was let me check on that
<coz_> rpedro, yeah that was the warty final I believe
<rpedro> ok, thanks again
<coz_> rpedro, I added the ubuntu symbol in perspective and the ubuntu word
<rpedro> hmm do you have the original clean version?
<coz_> rpedro, i can make it for you if you give me fiveminutes :)
<rpedro> great :D
<kwwii> op #ubuntu-artwork
<kwwii> rem
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> well, the topic is off topic
<kwwii> that I can tell you
<kwwii> sorry as it is
<kwwii> anyway, time for bed
<kwwii> cliff has nothing to do with feisty
<coz_> rpedro, it will take me about 15 have to switch to another system hold on if you want it still
<coz_> rpedro, still there?
<rpedro> yep
<coz_> rpedro, hold on let me post it for you
<coz_> rpedro, ok see if this is what you wanted   http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4929/wartyfinalwsubuntuqm6ud9.png
<rpedro> yes it is!
<coz_> rpedro, don't forget to zoom in on that image to get the full resolution
<rpedro> alright
<rpedro> :D
<coz_> rpedro, have fun :)
<rpedro> thanks a lot :)
<coz_> rpedro, absolutely no problem guy :)
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!
<troy_s> rpedro
<troy_s> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Specs/EdgyArtworkPlan/Produce/Incoming/CurrentDefault
<troy_s> that is the splash, gdm, and wall
<troy_s> it is packaged for Fesity -- someone created a package for it should it should be available from the Feisty repos once Feisty is released.
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<troy_s> and no, it wasn't developed for Warty.
<alefteris> hi everyone!
<alefteris> Can the font used with the gdm login screen be configured?
<alefteris> and if yes, how?
<alefteris> how can i check out the default human gdm theme? Its the theme that specifies the fonts used, right?
<alefteris> how do i know which code branch is used on the current edgy packages, for example for this https://code.launchpad.net/edgy-gdm-themes/+branches?field.lifecycle=Any+Status&field.lifecycle-empty-marker=1
<troy_s> alefteris:
<troy_s> alefteris: GDM font -- yes.  You can configure it.  Locate the gtkrc in the theme.
<troy_s> alefteris: /usr/share/gdm/
<troy_s> alefteris: and to checkout the proper code branches:
<troy_s> alefteris: go to https://launchpad.net/products and search for the product
<troy_s> for example, blubuntu
<troy_s> APE - https://launchpad.net/blubuntu-look and click the "code" section from the left panel
<troy_s> alefteris: then simply follow the trunk, and you will get a bzr path that will work for a checkout.
<troy_s> each release has its own title-
<troy_s> for example - edgy-gdm-themes is the the edgy one.  feisty-gdm-themes is feisty
<troy_s> if you do a bzr checkout, you will pull the head.
<troy_s> alefteris: hope this helps... message me if you need more information.
<troy_s> alefteris: the font line should be self explanatory
<troy_s> wiki.ubuntu.com/Bzr for more help
<troy_s> on bazaar
<alefteris> ok i downloaded the source package and took a look at the Human.xml
<alefteris> and it is using Bitstream Vera fonts instead of dejavu fonts
<alefteris> the resaul is that some characters look bad in the greek language with the bitstream fonts
<alefteris> what part of the theme the xml file controls? the text above the text-box?
<alefteris> i created a bug about it here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/edgy-gdm-themes/+bug/70829
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 70829 in edgy-gdm-themes "gdm should use dejavu fonts" [Low,Needs info] 
<troy_s> alefteris: did that get resolved though?
<troy_s> there were discussions as to why they used bitstream
<troy_s> do you know how to branc
<troy_s> the steps aren't listed on the wiki yet but basically,
<troy_s> read the Bzr tutorial on how to bracnh
<troy_s> branch even
<troy_s> fix the code
<troy_s> push your revisions to your bazaar directory
<alefteris> can you point me to the discasions in favor of using bitstream?
<troy_s> 1) push your revisions to your private bazaar directions.
<troy_s> 2) attach the new branch to the bug report
<troy_s> with a comment
<troy_s> 3) notify the artwork packaging folks.
<troy_s> that is effectively the process daniel and myself discussed.
<alefteris> troy_s, i'll try to get through those steps later, should be a good introduction to the way bug fixing works in ubuntu
<troy_s> alefteris: no one has put much time into it
<troy_s> so i am trying to get a process in place
<troy_s> and lay out documents
<alefteris> then i might need some more of your tips
<troy_s> that /Bzr is a good starting point
<kwwii> hi all
<troy_s> kwwii did you speak to sab about his plans for Feisty?
<troy_s> lol
<troy_s> kwwii?
<troy_s> kwwii: ping me when you are in or PM me with what you can milk out of the ever-so-caring masses.
<kwwii> troy_s: packing my clothes for the trip to oslo...be back in about 15 min
<troy_s> What meet is in Oslo?
<TheSheep> that's a quick trip
<troy_s> midway?
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> there is a dev meeting in oslo next week
<kwwii> I leave tomorrow
<kwwii> so...
<kwwii> two 1.5 hour flights as a I have to fly over amsterday
<kwwii> m
<kwwii> troy_s: as far as I know, I will be working on kubuntu
<kwwii> and also some on ubuntu
<kwwii> to what extent is unclear to me yet
<kwwii> next week I'll meet up with mark and I am sure he will let me know ;-)
<troy_s> kwwii there is a shocker
<kwwii> yeah
<kwwii> from what I have heard, cliff is not working on ubuntu
<troy_s> the good old Free software art and design caring level.
<troy_s> he was up when i had mail from mark last time.
<troy_s> but that was quite a while ago.
<kwwii> hrm
<kwwii> well, at least the other devs do not know about it
<kwwii> they made me co-maintainer of the auto-artwork stuff
<kwwii> daniel wants to make sure that the work from all the art teams get in as packages
<kwwii> we'll also be working on that next week
<kwwii> perhaps I have missed something in ubuntu-artwork...can you tell me what is going on?
<kwwii> afaik, nothing much
<kwwii> the community, I mean
<troy_s> yes i know that... i have been liasing with daniel far more than anyone
<troy_s> daniel is about the only guy who understands the importance on a larger level
<troy_s> perhaps sees a bigger picture and understands the components of it.
<troy_s> community is ixne on the Feisty stuff... due to ill conceived and ill believed thoughts on sab's end...
<kwwii> I want to try and talk to him about that too, but I am not sure how
<kwwii> well, if I am supposed to do this stuff, I think it should be with the community
<kwwii> until now, I assumed it would be the CD artwork and other print stuff
<kwwii> officialy I do not start until Monday
<kwwii> so until now I know very little
<troy_s> well even then
<troy_s> if you follow sabs approach
<troy_s> you still end up with the partitioned discontinuous form
<troy_s> different print, different ui look, etc.
<troy_s> the consistency level across all of the platforms is awful.
<kwwii> yeah, I know that having different stuff from print to ui is desired
<troy_s> just look at web presence, compared to os presence, compared to print media, etc.
<kwwii> true
<troy_s> yeah
<troy_s> and that is simply a fundamental poor approach
<troy_s> shoddy design as it represents shoddy forethought and poor implementation
<troy_s> but gain
<kwwii> well, I also know that they are looking for someone to do branding and art direction
<kwwii> that person will become my boss
<troy_s> that could be addressed by utilizing motifs -- something sab just can't seem to wrap his head around.
<troy_s> gong show
<kwwii> well, as soon as I know what is going on we can discuss more specific stuff
<kwwii> but for now, I don't want to say something I will regret :-)
<troy_s> kwwii it matters not really.  in all likelihood
<troy_s> if sab drives it, the form will probably suffer...
<troy_s> he isn't exactly on the edge of design innovation in terms of desire.
<troy_s> which is problematic when your entire product effectively revolves around innovation on a larger scale.
<troy_s> kwwii -- that is why I declined all of Mark'
<kwwii> yeah, i can see your point
<troy_s> s offers in Paris...
<troy_s> once you sign the line you need to unfortunately turn some of your thoughts off.
<troy_s> which again, doesn't help the cause.
<kwwii> to be honest, the way he does things has been 10x better than how it was at suse :p
<troy_s> kwwii-- no one said suse did it properly :)
<troy_s> but yes, I can see why
<troy_s> Hell...
<troy_s> he could hire someone who did bloody QA at Electronic Arts and have a better design approach than what is out there.
<troy_s> One month.
<troy_s> Anyone who has worked in a more well structured environment would be able to lend insight.
<troy_s> _anyone_
<kwwii> yeah, but without great artists working in that team the best leader in the world can make the art good
<kwwii> in the end a lot comes down to that too
<kwwii> there is a world of difference between a good artists and a great artist
<kwwii> but anyway
<kwwii> once I know what my job exactly includes I will certainly spread that info
<troy_s> not exactly true
<troy_s> much of art is
<troy_s> learned anyways...
<troy_s> hell... you could teach a monkey classic composition in about 10 minutes :)
<troy_s> just getting on the same page
<troy_s> goes a long way
<kwwii> oh, sure...all kinds of artists are needed but without that one great idea to lead/inspire/direct there is little chance of making a total package that is great
<troy_s> kwwii yes...
<troy_s> probably agree with you there.
<troy_s> that said, the one great idea probably needs to be planned first :)
<troy_s> which is, i guess, all i could hope for
<troy_s> get some bloody planning in place.
<kwwii> yeah, true
<troy_s> sit down and start discussing contemporary art and design
<troy_s> look at art movements and trends... etc.
<kwwii> lol, yeah with mark
<troy_s> figure out where things 'are', and push them to where they are 'going'
<kwwii> I am sure he is time/desire to discuss that with me
<troy_s> exactly
<troy_s> that is exactly my point
<troy_s> he doesn't
<troy_s> he could give a shit less
<kwwii> I mean, he is like the client in this relationship
<troy_s> that doesn't matter
<troy_s> the force that governs all is audience
<kwwii> and the client always has a veto right
<troy_s> yes
<troy_s> as designer though, he needs to be ready for innovation
<troy_s> ready for chance
<troy_s> ready for risk
<troy_s> etc.
<kwwii> so if the manager does not get the work good enough the client cries bullshit and that pisses everyone off
<troy_s> veto based on what he wants his desktop to look like is bog.
<kwwii> but in a community you cannot piss everyone off and the expect them to keep working
<troy_s> pissing people off will happen
<troy_s> 'good enough' is relative... in edgy's case it was relative to mark.
<troy_s> my mailbox told a different story
<troy_s> in the end it doesn't matter
<kwwii> I mean, last time frank was supposed to lead things
<kwwii> and in the end it was vetoed
<troy_s> he tried on many levels... marks attention is about where it is for Fesity
<troy_s> he just doesn't care
<troy_s> until the very end
<kwwii> seems like a normal situation that can happen at any design company
<troy_s> not at a design company
<troy_s> at a clueless shop
<troy_s> perhaps
<kwwii> true that he does not understand the long term aspects
<troy_s> bingo
<troy_s> _spot_ on.
<troy_s> and i know of no way of communicating things to him as he is simply far more stubborn than plausible.
<kwwii> but beleive me I wrote a few emails to him trying to explain things, and at first I think it really pissed him off
<troy_s> hell, as i said, he was arguing colour theory... which is fine if you have READ A BOOK ON IT.
<troy_s> hell even read wikipedia
<kwwii> but finally he saw the truth of it
<troy_s> truth of?
<kwwii> the explanation I gave of what went wrong last time
<troy_s> what went wrong was him
<kwwii> he stopped talking to me and said he would hire someone else
<troy_s> i have been involved in enough successful creative ventures for the longest time
<kwwii> but in the end, he did hire me
<troy_s> right out of university
<troy_s> when the director don't care, the product reflects such
<kwwii> so either he figured it out, or figured out that he cannot figure it out
<troy_s> sure... at least he stands a chance to trust you
<troy_s> also the various arms of ubuntu need to start talking
<troy_s> it seems jane,  matt, et all are all on different pages.
<troy_s> _especially_ when it comes to art and design.
<troy_s> right now, having ONE design is crippling too.
<troy_s> if you can call the default looks 'design'
<troy_s> in the end, the difference with one of the projects being successful and being not so successful is simply the fact that either the head leader puts the shit in or they don't.
<troy_s> and that isn't exactly a good grounding for evaluation.
<kwwii> dude, I am kinda worried about what will happen next week
<kwwii> as I was told that he will work very closely with me
<kwwii> anyway
<kwwii> I'm going back to packing my stuff...my wife finished ironing clothes, now I have to pack them
<kwwii> bbl
<troy_s> i'd be worried too.
<troy_s> you run the risk of utterly pleasing sabdfl -- which is in all likelihood a recipe for piss poor design.
<BHSPitMonkey> :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-21
<msikma> http://ubuntustudio.org/ <-- I can understand that there are artists who want to copy the everlasting Apple-like designs, but then at least do it right. These graphics are horribly wrong.
<msikma> So if whoever made those graphics is in this channel right now: shame on you and redo them.
<TheSheep> msikma: can you be a little more constructive?
<TheSheep> msikma: what's exactly wrong with them in your opinion?
<msikma> What's wrong with them? Well, it's an obvious attempt at creating the typical reflection graphics as popularized by Apple, but they are simply not  done right. They shouldn't be blurred and should properly fade out at the bottom of the reflection (the logo does not). Of course, it's debatable what can be considered "correct", but that's the way Apple did it (for a reason).
<TheSheep> msikma: maybe the apple reflections reflect from a different surface?
<TheSheep> msikma: as far as light physics is concerned, I can see nothing wrong with these images
<TheSheep> msikma: I don't know how Appple does it nor that it became the onle and only model to follow...
<msikma> You know what? I don't care. The vast majority of Ubuntu graphics are poor, and no matter how much I randomly complain here, that isn't going to change very easily.
<msikma> You can make up a ton of excuses to make it seem as if bad design is actually correct somehow, but that isn't going to make a difference.
<TheSheep> msikma: well, it's amazing that your complaining has no effect! there must be something wrong. it always worked when you were a little kid, right?
<msikma> Hahaha, yeah right.
<klepas> hey chaps
<TheSheep> msikma: I'm sorry, I shoudn't have said that. Got annoyed.
<klepas> how about rather than endless bitching and attacking each other those who wish to make a difference because they disagree start doing something
<TheSheep> msikma: btw, I'm not related to ubuntustudio
<klepas> the show me the code mentality works the same as it does in the other communities: do something and people will follow
<TheSheep> msikma: but you could maybe re-make these images and offer a replacement? :)
<TheSheep> klepas: good point
<klepas> there's a start :)
<klepas> if either of you two are interested in doing this i'd be happy to talk to you about doing something
<klepas> and putting the kick back into the artwork team; creativity and collaboration style
<msikma> I'm sorry, guys, but it's not a good thing that I personally have almost gotten used to being disappointed by Ubuntu-related design. I guess I could offer a replacement, but I really am more interested in doing something more structural. There are no real design guidelines, which there definitely should be.
<klepas> msikma: how about we start small?
<TheSheep> msikma: there are several efforts on that
<msikma> I think that the main problem is the wiki that we're using. There is no structure and I consistently have a hard time figuring out where to find or put things.
<klepas> a couple of us could get together, do a theme or two
<msikma> I think that the wiki would be a great place to put such information, but I have a feeling that it isn't the first place for a fair share of the artists to go look for information.
<TheSheep> msikma: I had a problem with the wiki too until I discovered that they don't use the wiki for navigation, just for storing things -- navigation is in launchpad
<klepas> hey chaps
<msikma> And the launchpad doesn't seem to be made for this kind of development.
<msikma> I mean, really, where are you going to put a design doc?
<klepas> let's ignore launchpad and the wiki for a moment
<klepas> i'm wondering whether either of you would be interested in getting together in the coming weeks and just doing something
<klepas> plain and simple. we can agree on whatever it is and collaborate to produce something rad.
<klepas> and take it from there?
<msikma> What kind of something? A theme?
<klepas> yea
<klepas> maybe a wallpaper
<klepas> and from there perhaps a matching splash
<msikma> Well, sure, I'm up for it
<TheSheep> klepas: doing it already :)
<msikma> I've been doing my own work in the meantime, although that still requires much work (a theme and some experimental wallpapers)
<klepas> msikma: great. :)
<klepas> cool
<klepas> i had a good chat with Jono and elkbuntu at LCA about getting the group of artists who are interested in making something sexy get back together
<klepas> if you guys are interested in making that happen, starting by beginning small with a few things here and there and growing outwards i'd love to talk and work with both of you in the coming weeks
<TheSheep> klepas: sure, if you have any particular ideas of what needs to be done.
<klepas> well the plan is to start small
<klepas> i'm not going to push anything in particular on you
<klepas> just see what a small handful of people are interested in and then maybe do a small set of goodies for the ubuntu desktop, using the ubuntu palette and maybe a logo here or there
<klepas> and passing it out as a really nice packed set to the community and check out the response
<coz_> morning
<Cimi> http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/3651/screen6ib.png
<Cimi> impressions?
<KaiL> nice
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-14
<smartboyathome> Would anyone here know how to use the pixmap engine? Just wondering because I would like to port my Enlightenment theme to GTK using pixmaps (Enlightenment themes use pixmaps)
<troy_s> kwwii: ping
<Tm_T> hi kids
<troy_s> Tm_T: Hello Dad.
<lapo_> hi
<dsargeant> Does anybody have a link to the log for last week's meeting?
<dsargeant> nevermind, I found it at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/01/10/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
<bauke>  hi all. For an large implementation of openoffice.org i'm looking for Tango icons for use in our template system. Icons for h1, h2 and so on. Does anyone in here know if they exist
<kwwii> bauke: I would suggest asking in #tango
<bauke> kwwii: yes, doing that right now
<Some_Person> Is there an Ubuntu Human theme for Thunderbird? I cannot find one.
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-15
<coz_> good day all
<troseph> anyway to set the wallpaper in gnome via commandline?
<_MMA_> troseph: HI. Lemmie look.
<_MMA_> Ill get that email off to you today.
<_MMA_> troseph: Good resource: http://www.gnome.org/projects/gconf
<troseph> looks liek the machine is running KDE
<troseph> so it wouldn't be in gconf would it?
<_MMA_> no
<troseph> hmm
<_MMA_> troseph: But the answer is still:  gconftool-2 -t str --set /desktop/gnome/background/picture_filename /path/to/file
<troseph> thank you! _MMA_
<_MMA_> np
<troseph> ~/.kde/share/config is where the config files are in kde, so I will be able to find them
<troseph> and thanks for the email. I appreciate it.
<_MMA_> k
<_MMA_> troseph: Ill give some more detail but I dont wanna restrict you too much. Its just gonna need to fit in with the current art. Ill send that to you so you get the idea.
<troseph> _MMA_ give me as much detail as you would like. I don't know the theme as well as you do, but a general layout would be very helpful.
<_MMA_> sure. Im playing with the fam atm but Ill send ya off something soon.
<gouki> Anyone around willing to give me a hand on something?
<_MMA_> Depends. I don't do windows. :P
<gouki> _MMA_: Neither do I! :)
<gouki> Actually, I need help on a new project I'm starting ... Web-design side of things
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-16
<lapo> hi
<thorwil> do any of these look familiar to you? http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/launchpad_hub_02_i.png
<ryanakca> hey, would anybody here be interested in submitting a mockup for the Kubuntu Website Mockup Contest?
<ryanakca> Nothing overly fancy, the detail isn't overly important now... the announcement is available here : http://blog.ryanak.ca/archives/44
<kwwii> re
<somerville32> tard
<somerville32> :]
<kwwii> ;-)
<kwwii> nighty night
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-17
<troy_s> kwwii: Needs fixing:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoHosting
<lapo> hi
<desrt> d000ds
<desrt> i had this bug the other day
<desrt> it looks like this http://blogs.gnome.org/desrt/2008/01/16/its-not-a-bug-its-a-feature/
<desrt> clearly we need this for hardy!
<_MMA_> Clearly.
<desrt> clearly!
<_MMA_> cl34rly!!!!!
<desrt> about 250 people downloaded the theme since i posted it yesterday
<desrt> and lots of people are using it now (or so they tell me on irc)
<desrt> so, clearly!
<_MMA_> like, totally!!
<desrt> time for school!
<desrt> if you don't have time to upload my theme to hardy today and prepare the backport to gutsy then i totally understand if you want to do it tomorrow instead
<desrt> bye bye :D
<desrt> alex-weej; yo.
<desrt> alex-weej; what are you doing around these parts?
<alex-weej> desrt: i've idled on this channel for years :P
<alex-weej> i got bored of actually chatting on it when i realised that there isn't really an ubuntu artwork team that i can participate in :(
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-18
<ToMaK> http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w159/tomakramza/allenwall.jpg  <<--wallpaper that i made
<desrt> ToMaK; !!
<desrt> default hardy background image!!
<_MMA_> cl34rly!!!!!
<desrt> clearly!
<Toma-> at least it would promote user theming
<ToMaK> ?
<_MMA_> Anybody know what font this is? http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/logos/community.pdf
<mgunes> kwwii, ping
<kwwii> mgunes: awake for another minute or so, how can I help?
<mgunes> you may want to post a clarification to some people speculating about your involvement in kde and the hardy redesign here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=665874
<mgunes> and/or just a note explaining the exact reason of the postponing first hand. or if you want me to, I can do so on your behalf
<kwwii> let me read through that thread, one second
<mgunes> ok. fyi, it's me who started it
<kwwii> oh man, people can go off on anything :p
<kwwii> the decision to make the LTS the last in the cycle has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that companies will use this and we need to have something which is well tested, etc.
<kwwii> and it was not my decision anyway
<mgunes> I know, but it's hard to get that across to people
<kwwii> yepp, that is why I stay away from the forum
<kwwii> I could spend all day every day defending myself to people who have little understanding of the situation
<kwwii> the point is to get on a long term schedule and change things over time
<kwwii> not make quick drastic decisions every 6 months
<kwwii> we need a long term plan which is well thought out
<kwwii> the way we are doing things now offers us a chance to really change things for the better over a longer period of time
<mgunes> makes sense, but perhaps people are disappointed due to the announcements after UDS that a new theme is on the way
<kwwii> see, the thing is, there were no announcements made on my part
<mgunes> it's mostly the digg + ars technica effect I guess
<kwwii> people read too much into comments made by people who have no idea what they are saying
<mgunes> but the specs surely stated that a new theme is aimed at for hardy, right?
<kwwii> I'll post a reply, but I doubt it will make real difference...when people want to rant they will ignore things anyway
<kwwii> at that time the specs were only in the drafting stage
<kwwii> they were just my idea for the future
<kwwii> and we changed that as soon as we new the real plan
<mgunes> did sabdfl make the call?
<kwwii> he and others made the decision that this LTS is the last of a cycle, yes
<kwwii> which really does make sense
<kwwii> using kde4 as an example you will see that we started working on that 3 years ago
<mgunes> true, makes every kind of sense
<mgunes> perhaps it's just that people are too wound up for a change
<kwwii> if you do not have a long term plan you will never be able to create a stable long-term base for a well planned change and really get what you want out fo things
<mgunes> case in point, the amount of views the thread has had in one week is enormous
<kwwii> perhaps it is just that people like to rant ;-)
<mgunes> it's had more than twice the number of views my "contribute to hardy" thread has had in three months, which says something :)
<kwwii> hehe
<kwwii> I am used to the forums being this way
<kwwii> it is like art-pirates or something
<mgunes> me too; I'm actually burned out and will probably quit following it sometime soon
<kwwii> aarrrgh! me wants a new theme!
<kwwii> I'll post a response but I seriously doubt it will change anything
<mgunes> I thought you clarifying that there's no relation between your kde involvement, which people seem to find strange for some reason, has nothing to do with the decision would be good
<kwwii> yeah, I can at least clear that up
<mgunes> other than that, it's not really possible to change people's mind and/or engage in a healthy debate
<kwwii> I honestly do not think that the forum is the right place for serious discussion about this stuff
<kwwii> all the people who are really interested and working on the artwork post mails to the mailing list or ask directly on irc
<mgunes> I agree, but the "problem" is that most people use the forum as a one-stop shop for everything
<mgunes> anyway, bedtime for me
<mgunes> thanks for your time
<kwwii> thanks for pointing that out
<kwwii> sleep well
<kwwii> I am actually sick and not even working :p
<mgunes> oh, get well soon. see you :)
<kwwii> see you
<lapo> hi
<troy_s> _MMA_: CL34RLY!
<troy_s> _MMA_: And if I were to wage money, I would say that the font you are looking for is "Adobe Garamond Regular"
<troy_s> _MMA_: But don't quote me ;)
<troy_s> _MMA_: aka "InsertProprietaryNameHere Garamond"
<troy_s> _MMA_: Akin to "Apple Garamond" during the "Think Different" campaigns.
<troy_s> _MMA_: Which is further rounded out by the attempted Apple-esque mimicry.
<_MMA_> Anyone ever resize a .svg in Inkscape and the image resizes as well?
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> so, for anyone wanted to read a long stupid rant:
<kwwii> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4158330
<_MMA_> No thanx. I've stopped looking. Its not the same forum I joined with Warty and through Edgy.
<_MMA_> hehe http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9852603-1.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Crave
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> reading through that art thread I realize how useless it is to actually post on the forums
<lapo> kwwii: forums are a waste of time
<kwwii> lapo: yepp, totally
<lapo> even wrost then mls
<kwwii> :p
<lapo> hi
 * kwwii is off for the night, be back tomorrow afternoon, latest
<_MMA_> bye
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-19
<nand> hiya!
<nand> for anyone interested on bikeshed, please tell me what you think of the items in http://www.ndeschildre.net/2008/01/19/ubuntu-websites-titles-mockups/ :)
<thorwil> hi nand. i'd prefer real text next to the logo images. space efficient and accessible
 * thorwil goes for a walk
<nand> you mean, HTML text outside the img? Not really feasible if we want to keep the ubuntu font for the ubuntu word...
<thorwil> nand: yes, that's what i mean. well, i wouldn't make that a hard requirement
<nand> we don't also have the same positioning freedom than in an img, and the same font variety.
<nand> thorwil: do you think http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7743/scrot4.png is too stylised?
<thorwil> nand: yes. the 2 fonts are from separate parts of the world and don't even talk to each other
<nand> this bikeshed color is quite difficult to choose :)
<thorwil> nand: seeing the width you could take, i would try putting the text on a single line
<thorwil> all lowercase
<nand> thorwil: that would require the same font for all, I guess
<thorwil> nand: should be tried, anyway. even though the title font is known to not be that great for anything that is not an u, b, n or t :)
<nand> :)
<nand> I give some more tries
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> hi all
<thorwil> hi kwwii
<kwwii> hi thorwil
<thorwil> nand: the horizon / bottom line of the logo background asks to be at least tried as baseline for  the text
<thorwil> nand: oh, and while i don't want to keep anyone from being creative, if you really really want title text as image, i would prefer if you let me do it
<nand> thorwil: ok thanks! We will compete on this one :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-20
<thorwil> kwwii: what's up with the ubuntu logo SVGs as linked from the wiki? the letters are full of unnecessary nodes. looks like bad automated tracing. at least i would hope no person would ever do it this way
<_MMA_> thorwil: Personally I just use the circle of friends image and then use the font for text.
<thorwil> _MMA_: the ubuntu title font as packaged for hardy doesn't match the official logo font
<_MMA_> Ive just grabbed it from the web. How doesnt it match?
<thorwil> _MMA_: the ttf is edgier and runs much narrower
<_MMA_> Can you link me to what SVG you're talking about from the wiki?
<thorwil> _MMA_: from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Official?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=UbuntuLogo.svg
<_MMA_> thorwil: Id just use the font and throw a stroke around it if you're unhappy with the thickness. Im sure the Xubuntu and I know the (old) Ubuntu Studio logos were done with the font. Nobody complained.
<thorwil> _MMA_: oh common, take that svg into inkscape, place ubuntu in title font right next to it and try to line it up. i don't think random variations in the ubuntu type are acceptable from a branding and typography point of view
<thorwil> but here we are, the damage is done
<_MMA_> thorwil: Really. We don't have much of a choice. You could start a thread on the ML to further clean-up/standardize the artwork. Its not uncommon for things like this to go through minor tweaks.
<_MMA_> There's even a effort to make the Ubuntu font more complete. http://betatype.com/node/36
 * thorwil tries to keep his sanity while editing an S
<_MMA_> hahaha
<nothlit> i don't know which versions are packaged and are in the logo, but the font itself has been cleaned up lately, the mailing list has mentions of versions with clean paths and even accents etc
<troy_s> thorwil: The redone font set is better by an order of a magnitude.  Sad we still haven't integrated it and gotten the author to sort out the license etc.
<thorwil> troy_s: good. an order of magnitude is required ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: And then some.
<troy_s> thorwil: Even the free font 'poo platter' is infinitely better.
<thorwil> heh
<troy_s> thorwil: I would suggest checking out the one done by the fontographer.
<troy_s> thorwil: Have you seen poo platter?
<thorwil> troy_s: nope. i wasn't sure it exists
<troy_s> thorwil: Weird... I can't find it.  Abstract fonts has it in their catalogue.
<troy_s> thorwil: Looking.
<thorwil> dinner, bbl
<troy_s> thorwil: Anyways, here is the redone one: http://betatype.com/node/36
<thorwil> troy_s: is there a downlaod link hidden somewhere?
<troy_s> thorwil: From that blog page?
<thorwil> yes
<troy_s> thorwil: It was easily downloadable last time I looked there, but maybe not in that update page.
<troy_s> thorwil: It's quite a bit better than the rather hacky title ttf - as you can probably see.
<troy_s> thorwil: Does Ardour offer sequencing?
<thorwil> troy_s: audio sequencing yes. no midi, allthough that is in the works
<troy_s> thorwil: Hrm.  So what would you recommend for simple midi sequencing loops?
<thorwil> troy_s: seq24
<troy_s> thorwil: Is it relatively easy to use for a novice audience?
<thorwil> troy_s: yes and no. it's simple in structure and made for loops. but editing notes is a bit odd
<thorwil> troy_s: i don't remember how it works exactly, lets just say that you should try all 3 mouse buttons if you want to draw notes
<troy_s> thorwil: How does Rosegarden rate in your opinion?
<thorwil> troy_s: i never managed to make it talk to a softsynth
<troy_s> (and sorry, I am asking on behalf of someone else.  I am not a music guy.)
<thorwil> troy_s: both rosegarden and muse are more complex than seq24 and _not_ made for loops
<troy_s> thorwil: Ok that answers that question.
<troy_s> thorwil: Thanks a million.
<thorwil> troy_s: np
<troy_s> thorwil: Erm... one more:  What one works best in the Ardour workflow?
<troy_s> (loop or otherwise)
<thorwil> troy_s: doesn't matter, i'd say. but i'm only really familiar with muse
<thorwil> troy_s: both muse and rosegarden have audio capabilities. which suffice if you don't need precise audio editing or tricky routing
<troy_s> thorwil: Thanks again.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-12
<DanaG> Oh hey, anyone know of a nice ubuntu logo that would look good as a replacement for the HP logo on my BIOS boot screen?  I'd want it to be the same sort of style.
<DanaG> Yay for laptop that lets me set custom boot logo.
<DanaG> eh, perhaps it wouldn't be as cool as I'd think.  Whatever.
<_MMA_> kwwii: I can't unsub us from bug 99508. :(
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 99508 in human-theme "Titlebar incorrectly drawn with geforce 5/6/7, compiz and human-theme" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/99508
<kwwii> _MMA_: let me look into it
<_MMA_> And that "Fix released" is crap 'cause it didn't fix on my 7 series card. :)
<kwwii> hrm, I cannot figure it out either
<kwwii> I think because it is set to invalid for the human-theme we are still in the loop
<_MMA_> Hmm.... Are you the owner/driver of the team?
<kwwii> it is assigned to compiz packagers
<kwwii> not the artwork team
<_MMA_> Toward the bottm.
<_MMA_> "Also notified" or something.
<kwwii> nope, those just let me add another project or dist
<kwwii> ahhh, I see what you mean
<kwwii> but I don't see how to remove it
<kwwii> suckage
<thorwil> wow, i got a contribution via the forum :)
 * kwwii is feeling ill, going to lay down for a bit
<SealV> for you count?
<SealV> *your
<thorwil> SealV: yes
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-13
<_MMA_> andreasn: You know if the all the source images for Tango's utilities-terminal are in SVG? I have a icon I based of of the scalable SVG but use for smaller sizes like we all know has issues.
<andreasn> _MMA_, I think they are anyway, 16x16 and 22x22 might be xcf's
<andreasn> I'll check
<andreasn> _MMA_, the 22x22 has a svg, the 16x16 only a xcf-file. Should be pretty quick to trace though
<andreasn> cvs -d:pserver:anoncvs@anoncvs.freedesktop.org:/cvs/tango co tango-icon-theme
<andreasn> in $size/apps/utilities-terminal
<_MMA_> andreasn: Thanx alot sir.
<andreasn> np
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-14
<rsc-> hi fellas!
 * _MMA_ waves.
<_MMA_> rsc-: Been pretty quiet lately.
<rsc-> seems like it, yeah.
<thorwil> hi rsc-
<thorwil> rsc-: what are you up to these days?
<rsc-> working. :/
<thorwil> not the worst option :)
<_MMA_> +1
<rsc-> though ive gotten a few hours to put together a new theme
<rsc-> (but it's still in the mockup stage :p)
<rsc-> :)
<rsc-> http://i35.tinypic.com/qrg6l4.jpg
<thorwil> rsc-: polished aluminum buttons?
<rsc-> lol, yeah.
<thorwil> rsc-: the flat signs on them don't work that well
<rsc-> oh well, its not much but it's a bit of progress at least
<rsc-> flag signs?
<thorwil> rsc-: the triangles and stuff
<rsc-> oh, erm, okay
<thorwil> rsc-: one would expect either the metal to shine through, or the symbols to be carved
<rsc-> i was trying to do an inset effect on those back/forward/stop glyphs
<rsc-> ...either way, i dont think it's very good progress overall. I thought I'd get somewhere good with a "pro"-looking black/aluminum combo, but it ended up looking very mac-like
<rsc-> how about elsewhere in the Ubuntu front? any updates on projects?
<rsc-> ...breathe?
<thorwil> good thing i don't have to mention that ;)
<thorwil> rsc-: Sebastian is still filling in icons one by one
<rsc-> where's the latest preview?
<thorwil> while i let little things here and there keep me from finishing the svg theme file
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Submissions
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
<rsc-> eep, go-previous isn't how I believe breathe should be
<thorwil> it's in submissions ... it will never go elsewhere ;)
<rsc-> but it seems to be going pretty nicely :)
<rsc-> sigh
<rsc-> i'd really like to contribute but I'd really rather work on pixels instead of vector :p
<thorwil> excuses :)
 * thorwil -> dinner
<_MMA_> rsc-: Don't you owe me a Studio wallpaper? :)
 * _MMA_ ducks.
<_MMA_> And go-previous will be removed soon. he other artist has done nothing with it.
<rsc-> haha :P
<rsc-> i've still no idea what to do with it.
<_MMA_> Still have the emails I sent? I was just thinking something in the shape of our logo.
<_MMA_> Some kinda background. I like the feel of your original ibex. How the bg and Ibex were separate.
<_MMA_> And I like your screenshot there. Slick.
<tretle> cimi , you there?
<Cimi> y
<tretle> I saw a post on your blog about metacity compositing from svn
<tretle> http://www.cimitan.com/blog/2007/12/08/metacity-con-ombre-e-trasparenze-e-nel-repo/
<tretle> its in Italian, but I was wondering whether it was regarding transparency or fade effects for windows?
<Cimi> tretle, compositing is enabled by default
<Cimi> if you are not using compiz
<Cimi> gconftool-2 --set /apps/metacity/general/compositing_manager --type bool true
<tretle> enabled by default in what?
<tretle> I have been using metacity-compositing for some time and was hoping that that post was about updates to it because I have noticed the same bugs in all ubuntu releases thus far and no new features seem to be developed
<Cimi> tretle, that post is old
<Cimi> anyway there's an interesting -but not blogged on the web- work from opened hand
<Cimi> intel is sponsoring some works for a clutter backend for metacity compositing
<Cimi> allowing to use opengl instead xrender
<Cimi> that means more effects
<tretle> also means incompatibility with more hardware
<Cimi> of course
<tretle> would prefer if the current xrender bugs where fixed before the clutter work is done, that way metacity gnome could use the clutter backend when available and the xrender as a fallback rather than having just clutter and a non composited backend
<tretle> two of the biggest bugs to fix would be the lack of shadow effects upon restart and video overlaying gtk windows on top
<Cimi> "lack of shadow effects upon restart"
<Cimi> ?
<Cimi> while the second bug seems more a xorg/driver issue
<tretle> basically when you enable metacity-compositing from the gconf editor it adds shadows to the panels but when you restart the shadows are gone... the only way to get them back is by switching metacity-compositing off and then back on again from the gconf-editor
<Cimi> where?
<Cimi> on the panel?
<Cimi> windows have shadows here after restart
<Cimi> just the panel hasn't
<tretle> yup the panel
<Cimi> known bug
 * Cimi -> away
<theBishop> Some application text is really faint when using the DarkRoom theme.  Is there a workaround?
<_MMA_> theBishop: Depends. Sometimes it's the app doing something non-standard. Most things have  been well-tested but there will always be a few cases. What app?
<_MMA_> theBishop: You also might wanna search Launchpad to see if the bug is reported.
<theBishop> _MMA_, it's basically any time the app has application text on a white background.  Compiz Settings Manager, the preferences menu in Firefox, the tree-view in pgAdmin3, et al
<_MMA_> Known issues I'm afraid. Patches have been sent to Compiz Settings Manager (and gnome-control-center as they share similar code) but nothing has been accepted.
<theBishop> so it's not something that can be changed by GTK or the theme engine?
<_MMA_> No
<theBishop> determine the background and default the font color to black if the background is not standard
<_MMA_> It often comes down to app writers assuming the text is always dark.
<_MMA_> As things are, nothing can be done other than send patches upstream. Hope they take 'em.
<theBishop> _MMA_, so the issue is the app is overriding the font color, assuming a light background?
<_MMA_> No. Not overriding it, using certain widgits and assuming text will always be dark without consideration otherwise. *Some* apps hard-cone colors but they are few. FF2 was one. Thunderbird2 is another.
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-15
<kwwii> Guten Morgen liebe Sorgen
<kwwii> anyone know of any 3D ubuntu logo? (preferably laying down)
<SealV> anything new? thorwil I recorded myself in hindi and marathi. I will upload them as seen as I can.
<thorwil> SealV: excellent :)
<savvas> thorwil: about the 1 2 3 4 idea? did you get it in greek or serbian?
<savvas> would you like in greek-cypriot dialect as well? hah :P
<savvas> thorwil: would you mind if I forward your emails to some ubuntu-related lists? ubuntu-cy and ubuntu-loco-contacts specifically
<savvas> that is, if you still need more sounds
<thorwil> savvas: no, no greek or serbian, yet
<thorwil> savvas: forwarding is ok
<savvas> ok great
<thorwil> so far i have finnish, italian, german and not quite up to the requirements english and spanish
<savvas> I'll quote you on that :)
<kwwii> thorwil: as promised, I will try to make an english version when I get back from london
<kwwii> ie tomorrow or on the weekend
<thorwil> kwwii: good :)
<_MMA_> kwwii: So how is the stay in London anyway?
<savvas> cold? :P
<savvas> um hi, does anyone know if I use a GPL font (free sans), can I release the svg to Public Domain?
<thorwil> savvas: i would guess no
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-16
 * tretle wonder's whether shiki-colors could be the default theme for jaunty
<soc> hi
<soc> someone from the dusttheme team online?
 * _MMA_ has a bad mem and can't remember who was managing it. :-/
* You're now known as ubuntulog
<soc> hi
<soc> someone from the dusttheme team online?
<SealV> is it possible for all notification panel icons to be simple one color icons, while making sure that nonpanel icons are complex?
<_MMA_> SealV: ATM, no. But soon it might be possible. Well, they *can* be, but they won't be contained to the panel.
<SealV> how soon? having too many colors in the panel is not desirable, imo
<_MMA_> If I knew a ETA I woulda said. ;)
<SealV> :3
<SealV> mma: did you see the update on mr bun?
<_MMA_> SealV: No.
<SealV> :o I fished up the tail and added a bit of spice to the background its on the wiki, I am really looking for some critique
<SealV> *finished thinking too much of food
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-17
<thorwil> kwwii: so jaunty alpha3 still has the ibex wallpaper?
<soc> hi
<soc> someone from the dusttheme team online?
<lianimator> anyone use wacom intuos3?
<lianimator> need help configuring
<soc> someone from the dusttheme team online?
<thorwil> soc: you are looking for rsc. or maybe his nick was rsc- or something like that
<soc> ah ok thanks
<thorwil> soc: he seems to be rather busy these days, i don't see him here often. you might have more luck with a request on the mailing list
<soc> ah ok, thanks
<thorwil> soc: his site: http://www.ricostacruz.com/
<soc> thanks
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-18
<DkySven> hello people
<_MMA_> Hi
<DkySven> I would like to get involved with Ubuntu and help developing it
<DkySven> I have only not much experience in graphic desing and I don't know how to get involved
<DkySven> design*
<DkySven> how can I get involved?
<_MMA_> DkySven: Start here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/GetInvolved
<DkySven> hmm, it seems like there are problems with the launchpad server
<_MMA_> Try again. Sometimes there's high traffic or maintainence.
<DkySven> ok
<DkySven> yay, I finally managed to register at launchpad \o/
<thorwil> DkySven: congrats :)
<DkySven> XD
<DkySven> Launchpad is too populair, it's very slow
<thorwil> DkySven: do you have a specific area of interest? what's your background, if i may ask?
<DkySven> I worked for a while on a game, Project Paragon, which stopped because we hadn't enough people
<DkySven> I worked a bit with Wings3D, Blender, GIMP and I draw, which i scan to use
<DkySven> use at the computer*
<DkySven> I have not much experience, but I would like to learn more in this area
<thorwil> DkySven: real life has bad timing, i'll be back later ... still a last question: do you have examples of your work online?
<DkySven> not much
<DkySven> only dkysven.deviantart.org
<DkySven> wrong link
<DkySven> dkysven.deviantart.com
<DkySven> I am not very skilled, I just want to learn with doing small things for Ubuntu
<thorwil> DkySven: skill comes with training :)
<DkySven> that's why I wanted to join, to have some training :)
<DkySven> welcome back, btw
<thorwil> DkySven: ubuntu artwork is all about wallpapers, themes and icons
<DkySven> ok
<thorwil> wallpapers are likely a better training-ground than icons
<DkySven> where do you upload finished work, www.gnome-look.org?
<thorwil> DkySven: proposals should be added to the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/
<thorwil> DkySven: the Breathe icon project has its own submissions page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Submissions
<DkySven> ok, thanks
<thorwil> DkySven: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet for what it's about
<DkySven> brb
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-18
<DanRabbit> coz_: oh, I've never heard of it :po
<JesseW> Is Ivanka Majic here?
<xumuk> hi, there
<JesseW> xumuk: hi?
<JesseW> xumuk: can we help you?
<xumuk> I just configured XChat and I met the first remembered channel, but thanx)
<xumuk> yes, you can) sorry, I was thinking I was on another channel))
<JesseW> no worries
<xumuk> is there some open source graphic redactor PS like?
<xumuk> Gimp, no, thanks)
<xumuk> the good one...
<JesseW> don't know, sorry
<troy_s> Redactor?
<xumuk> yes, something like PhotoShop
<troy_s> xumuk: You won't find anything quite like photoshop. They are all crippled in one way or another in certain respects.
<troy_s> xumuk: What is your issue with GIMP?
<xumuk> not so many functions...
<troy_s> xumuk: Um... well to be fair, that isn't one of GIMP's shortcomings.
<xumuk> and I tried to do some thing I knew in PS and I've got no idea how to do it in Gimp...
<troy_s> xumuk: When you say one of the winning entries, I'll confirm it.
<troy_s> xumuk: That, I am afraid, is an invalid complaint.
<xumuk> yes, it was that I afraid...
<troy_s> xumuk: They are different applications so expect them to behave differently. Not only is GIMP a different application, it would also be legally impossible to clone PS.
<xumuk> rtfm gimp, no? o_O
<troy_s> xumuk: So while GIMP has _some_ shortcomings, the one you mentioned is merely a lack of knowledge on your part.
<troy_s> xumuk: Well... or ask. :)
<troy_s> xumuk: As I said, I am no GIMP apologist, but not knowing the application isn't quite GIMP's fault.
<xumuk> thanx) I'm already go to sleep, but know where to ask... yeah, it isn't GIMP's fault)
<xumuk> bb
<troy_s> xumuk: If you have issues
<troy_s> xumuk: Contact someone - there are more than a few people that might be able to help you.
<xumuk> I've got too much tied for now... next time) thanks!
<thorwil> vish: hi! may i kick your manual cover with my lynx from the wiki page?
<vish> thorwil: i didnt understand? :)
<thorwil> vish: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Artwork?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Cover-tw.png
<thorwil> vish: may i take that from the page, as i'm editing it right now, anyway?
<vish> thorwil: yeah , oh , you dont want it there? ok sure.. but just curious why? ;)
<vish> apart from the obvious  , i did it worng ;p
<thorwil> vish: it's much weaker than your other 3, makes me cringe and no one else seems to like it
<vish> thorwil: lol .. k.. ;)
<thorwil> vish: thanks!
<vish> np..
<thorwil> vish: btw, your first version with wolter's lynx is better because the eyes is roughly on a height with "Manual". on the other version, where it sits lower ... that feels like a drop
<vish> thorwil: i totally agree.. but benjamin wants it lower.. so i just put both of them up there ;)
<thorwil> vish: try placing both lynx and title lower, then
<vish> thorwil: also , most of the articles use the first version too..
<vish> hmm.. then the space above seems empty.. :(
<vish> thorwil: will give it a shot , i havent looked at the manual title for a while
<thorwil> vish: you could try to remove the top right corner thing and add the version number after the ubuntu logotype
<vish> thorwil: also , now people are saying that the name "Ubuntu manual" isnt decided to be the final version! o.0
<vish> they might change the name...
<thorwil> vish: heh, everyone of us who added a design proposal is an idiot ;)
<vish> surely   :D...  not sure what's going on .. with all the rifts
<thorwil> the wiki and just the presence of title page proposals mislead me to think the project would be more mature
<vish> thorwil: yeah... i didnt really like the way the doc replies were handled :(    which kinda felt too silly
<dashua> If anyone is running murrine v0.91.0 and would like to test an updated Dust - > bzr branch lp:~dashua/dusttheme/MurrinaDust . I have  Human, Hanso, and Albatross to push as well.  Any suggestions, let me know?
<dashua> Thx
<Equiet> dashua: Can you post a screenshot?
<kwwii> dashua: hey, I had kenvandine put the new murrin in a ppa for those who wish to test it out
<kwwii> dashua: I think we'll be switching to the new version in karmic, not 100% sure yet though
 * kwwii cooks dinner
<dashua> kwwii, Cool.  not messing too much with metacity themes due to the client side decorations in Lucid
<dashua> I'll get them ready for review
<dashua> Bbl
<dashua> Equiet, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/38689/screenshot_001_3rUVIZ.png
<Equiet> dashua: In Applications menu, the selection should have only top and bottom border.
<Equiet> I permanently don't understand, why uselected tabs are more contrast to the background.
<Equiet> Scrollbars are too rounded.
<Equiet> And for GtkCombo, the arrow doesn't fit there.
<Equiet> And for "Applications" as selected item I would use brighter color instead of darker gradient.
<troy_s> dashua: Only thing I'd probably notice on an otherwise pretty solid attempt is that the overarching tones in the interface are myriad. I see an orangey brown for the selected item in Applications, a muddy taupe in the unselected tabs, a chocolate in the progress sliders, a middle grey value in the scrollbar pills and gripper, and then the splash of standing out colour in the icons top left.
<troy_s> dashua: The arrows in the groupbox are probably symptomatic of this. I wonder if you can generate a palette and sprinkle it around those various elements in such a way that it doesn't feel like clumps of curry that aren't properly mixed into the recipe.
<troy_s> dashua: I don't know if you have enough diversity there for a triad, but you almost certainly have enough for a compliment. http://colorschemedesigner.com/
<troy_s> dashua: It's all random opinion until you solidly sum up your goal and audience though. IF your goal is a sort of middle aged elegance ala Westernized thinking (as opposed to say, Asian or African art context) _maybe_ pushing it further along with that goal will help you cite some concrete changes.
<dashua> troy_s, Thanks for the input. I'll definitely use that colorschemedesigner.  I've been using Agave for my Triads.
<troy_s> dashua: Agave isn't quite as sophisticated as Colorscheme
<troy_s> dashua: You can adjust your degrees and values etc.
<dashua> Yeah, I see that.
<dashua> This is nice
<troy_s> dashua: And the version 2 you could download for local use. I think you can do it with 3 as well.
<dashua> Awesome.  Agave seems very basic compared to this.
<troy_s> dashua: Why did you choose to bold the window title / application menu?
<troy_s> dashua: (And the clock for that matter)
<dashua> Just a preference of mine while using Droid Sans fonts.  That is really the only time it looks half decent.
<dashua> I can easily;y revert it back.
<troy_s> dashua: Ok... I guess the follow up, what decision process did you use to arrive at Droid Sans?
<dashua> Other than a personal preference on my eyes, no real process.
<dashua> Have any suggestions on a better font?
<troy_s> dashua: Give it a thought. At least the decision is personal - that's better than some fictitious reasoning.
<troy_s> dashua: Better is relative. ;)
<dashua> Very true.  There was another group of fonts kwwii posted a while back that were quite nice.
<troy_s> dashua: What I was hoping you'd take from the above comments is that it is _all_ relative and subjective if you choose to randomly poll for evaluation. That isn't art/design nor should it be. The opinions and comments are relevant if and only if you manage to keep a point of perspective.
<dashua> Just can't remember the name. =/
<troy_s> dashua: So your first question might be something like 'What is the overall tone you are aiming at?'
<troy_s> dashua: ?
<dashua> Harmony from Xsplash - > GDM > Desktop
<troy_s> dashua: That still isn't a tone. A tone is the overall state - the sum 'presence' of the parts. Is it rock and roll? Is it classical music? Is it spicy hot sexy? Is it sophisticated avant garde? Etc.
<dashua> Not that is a requirement.  Continuity wise is flows better.
<troy_s> dashua: Not disagreeing with you, but you might do yourself well to have a clear goal and set of constraints. Questions such as 'What typeface?' are _massive_ and _sweeping_ without some given sets of constraints. So by having those design constraints clear, some questions are self answering and far more evident than without them.
<troy_s> dashua: Follow me?
<dashua> troy_s, Gotcha.  This is basically just a refresh of the older Dust theme
<troy_s> dashua: Sure... so throw some mud at the wall and see if it sticks. Figure out what it is not if you can't figure out what the tone _is_.
<dashua> I have not specified specific goals and I see your point opinions are subjective without a clear focus.
<troy_s> dashua: That would be part of the utter complexity of answering a question or working towards an end point - if you don't have a problem / question / destination, you are basically asking yourself "Ok... How do I get there?"
<dashua> Exactly
<troy_s> dashua: While it may have seemed a rather flakey question at the onset, I'd hope you can see how fundamentally critical that question is now.
<dashua> troy_s, Aye.  Thx.
<troy_s> dashua: Just give yourself a loose couple of parameters - "What is the emotional tone I'm aiming for with this?" and "Whom am I seeking to communicate that to?". Elegant, for example, has radically different manifestations in Korea to say, Istanbul. Even worse, your great grandmother's concept of elegance is a far cry from your father's.
<dashua> For a tone, I would describe it as more subtle than the original with being overly glaring in your face.
<troy_s> dashua: The following questions that pop up and the creative decisions are somewhat self-evident or at the very least, _far_ easier to answer.
<troy_s> dashua: Subtle and In-You-Face still aren't a tone. ;)
<troy_s> dashua: Your defining aesthetic choice with that screenshot is the wallpaper selection - wood texture. Why did you pick that? The answer might help you define the tonal context.
<dashua> I see.  Contrast was one the main reasons.
<troy_s> dashua: LOL. Worried about contrast?
<dashua> The theme has a completely different look/feel on a darker background.
<troy_s> dashua: Of course it does. That's the point. But you are falling into the classic 'design-by-amoeba' trap that is prevalent in our culture. You are driving on your trip without having any idea what direction or destination or reason you are driving there. From that, problems pop up that have no solutions.
<dashua> I definitely see your point.  I do not believe  the artistic training to define such goals, but I'll give it a shot ;)
<dashua> I have *
<troy_s> dashua: Do it if only to help answer questions for yourself. The two questions above would go a long way to answering them for yourself.
<troy_s> dashua: Once you realize how nebulous and subjective it all dissolves down into, you will probably have an epiphany on how those goals are the very bare minimum before you push a pixel. If you don't, you open up a world of bikeshedding. Bikeshedding is a byproduct of not focusing on WHO it is for and WHAT it is doing.
<dashua> Very true.  You end end with a hodgepodge of ideas grouped together as one.
<troy_s> dashua: Bingo.
<troy_s> dashua: Or worse, you chase after competing goals.
<troy_s> dashua: You can't be Classical Music and Punk Rock simultaneously.
<dashua> I'm checking out your blog post http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2010/01/six-ubuntu-oopsies-and-possible-quick.html for some insight.
<dashua> troy_s, Yes.
<troy_s> dashua: Well you would be better off reading someone with a bit of a clue.
<troy_s> dashua: Rather than fritter away your time reading dribblings.
<dashua> This is for an update to a community submission, no idea where the official direction is going.
<dashua> troy_s, Alright, although some good points are made.
<troy_s> dashua: If you answer those two questions above, you can probably at least have some clue on where to turn in the forest.
<troy_s> dashua: But you can probably already see that.
<dashua> I do. :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-19
<kwwii> vish: did you see that I approved the merge?
<vish> kwwii: yeah.. so do i now set the status to merge or how to do it ... ?
<kwwii> vish: lol, not sure...the other times I did it the people with changes new what to do
<vish> hehe.. ;)
<kwwii> vish: I can merge your stuff into human, I thought that lp did it somehow
<vish> kwwii: i think the owner of the main branch has to do the merge
<kwwii> vish: ok, I'll do that sometime soon
<vish> k..
<kwwii> I'm trying to get my lucid test system back up and running before I leave for london
<vish> kwwii: if you have the main branch , then it seems doing  $bzr merge https://code.launchpad.net/~vish.../ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/bug507632+bug495644/+merge/17538
<vish> or  $bzr merge lp:~vish.../ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/bug507632+bug495644
<kwwii> vish: yeah, but that returns errors
<vish> kwwii: but eitherway , the branch owner has to do it ;)
<vish> hmm.. :(
<kwwii> kwwii@ballard:~/bzr/human-theme$ bzr merge https://code.launchpad.net/~vish.../ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/bug507632+bug495644
<kwwii> bzr: ERROR: KnitPackRepository('file:///home/kwwii/bzr/human-theme/.bzr/repository/')
<kwwii> is not compatible with
<kwwii> CHKInventoryRepository('http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~vish.../ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/bug507632%2Bbug495644/.bzr/repository/', fallback_repositories=[CHKInventoryRepository('http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/lucid/.bzr/repository/')])
<kwwii> different rich-root support
<vish> kwwii: did you try with the second method? with "lp:~"
<kwwii> vish: I get the same error
<vish> bah... :s
<kwwii> hrm, I fixed that problem only to find another
<kwwii> :p
<kwwii> kwwii@ballard:~/bzr/human-theme$ bzr merge https://code.launchpad.net/~vish.../ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/bug507632+bug495644
<kwwii> bzr: ERROR: Branches have no common ancestor, and no merge base revision was specified.
 * vish hates the machines ...! :/  
<vish> they should just do want we think we want ;p
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> how is one supposed to install fonts on ubuntu?
<vish> kwwii: if you view the fonts , in the font viewer , it will have a button "Install font"
<kwwii> vish: thnx ;)
<kwwii> vish: erm, your changes do not show up in the changelog
<kwwii> and you didn't start from the latest lp:human-theme
<vish> kwwii: the changelog i didnt change because it didnt have entry of the previous changes
<kwwii> I think you need to re-add your changes to the human-theme and then update the changelog
<kwwii> ?
 * vish tries to find new lp:human-theme
<vish> kwwii: isnt this the latest?
<vish> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/lucid/human-theme/lucid
<vish> that was the one i used.. :(
<kwwii> it should not be...if it is there is a dev out there who should be smacked around
<kwwii> and anyway, I cannot update that
<kwwii> the main packaging is in the ubuntu-art-pkg team which then goes into the distro
<vish> ah.. ok let me find the right one :)
<kwwii> lp:human-theme should give you the right one
<vish> got it... i followed the links from the bugs :/
<vish> *got the right one... the wrong one was
<vish> from the bugs :/
<thorwil> heh, and here i always just copied fonts to /usr/share/fonts/...
<vish> thorwil: alternatively you can also copy fonts to the ~/.fonts folder ;)
<vish> so we have several ways to do just one thing o.0
<thorwil> of course, because linux is about choice of how you shoot yourself in the foot after wasting lots of time on research
<vish> kwwii: tada... >  https://code.launchpad.net/~vish.../human-theme/bug507632+bug495644/+merge/17665
<kwwii> vish: not quite, sorry to say
<kwwii> you updated the wrong changelog :p
<vish> bah. :s
<kwwii> you need to go into the source and run dch -i
<kwwii> that will open an editor with the debian/changelog file and the right changes
<vish> damn it !
 * vish kicks self
<kwwii> you just need to add your comment
<kwwii> sorry
<kwwii> I know this is annoying
<kwwii> but I cannot change your stuff
<vish> kwwii: yeah... i was wondering where the changelog was :s
 * vish silently points kwwii to > https://code.launchpad.net/~vish.../human-theme/bug507632-bug495644/+merge/17671
<kwwii> vish: it should be done now, just needs sponsoring in main
<vish> cool
<Equiet> I do understand right, that GTK CSS engine is only about a syntax and not CSS features?
<vish> lol troy_s , nice comment message for the wiki ;)
<troy_s> vish: Oops. You weren't supposed to read that _that_ fast.
<troy_s> vish: You _really_ have your ear to the ground. ;)
<troy_s> vish: It _really_ is a shame. Worse, you guys are being steered by someone with zero clue on art direction. It is painful to watch.
<vish> :)
<vish> troy_s: the funny thing is , now even the name of the project "Ubuntu manual" isnt final... ;)  the project seemed a bit organized at first but... :s
<troy_s> vish: Whatever. There will be more medding from higher up and _no_ one will pay attention to design issues until the last possible moment.
<vish> troy_s: for the photo what did you use as a base?
<troy_s> vish: Erm?
<troy_s> vish: Sorry... don't understand you.
<vish> troy_s: is stop-spec-work.jpg a photo ? or ...
<troy_s> vish: It's a comp.
<vish> troy_s: ah.. nice :)  [suspected it ]
<troy_s> vish: Really really quick comp.
<thorwil> troy_s: heh, i doubt that message will be understood.
<troy_s> thorwil: Well it is as much for you guys as them.
<thorwil> troy_s: maybe you didn't think hard enough about your intended audience ;p
<troy_s> thorwil: There will be no changing the culture if it doesn't happen from the inside.
 * vish bets it might be removed by them ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: Agreed.
<troy_s> vish: That's fine.
<troy_s> vish: The point is that (1) The output will only be as solid as the art director. In this case, I'd worry when someone uses terms such as "professional" and "shinier" and then goes on to "love the top half with the laptop and the icons around it"
<troy_s> vish: and (2) Iterative design needs a solid starting point and a goal. You can't keep four or five people guessing - it wastes time, energy, and leaves _everyone_ disappointed with the outcome.
<vish> yeah...
<troy_s> vish: Look no further than the wandering and utterly wasted commentary at the bottom. "Let's go this way!" "No! Let's go that way!" "No, it's not easy on the eyes!" "That one looks really professional!"
<troy_s> vish: It's utter rubbish. The bikeshed ultimately stems from the leadership - where there is a clearly lacking goal and set of design constraints, the bikeshed opens.
<thorwil> troy_s: i was blinded by the wiki and thought the project would be more mature. the language you cite worried me, of course
<vish> troy_s: well , they're kids what can you say ;p
<troy_s> thorwil / vish: It's all good in the end, if we can at least make baby steps in the right direction. Currently it is unfolding as nothing more than a spec contest. The destination will be nothing but darkness.
<thorwil> troy_s: so are you going to explain all this to Humphrey / say it on one of the teams channels?
<troy_s> thorwil / vish: Remember too that this absolutely uh... lost(?) product design was steered, developed, and approved. It was a paid design no doubt as well, officially labelling it as 'professional' - http://blog.canonical.com/?p=18
<vish> thorwil: i'd think it would be more of the doc ML replies again ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: I'd seriously doubt that _anyone_ would listen to what some idiot on the etherweb would have to say.
<troy_s> thorwil: "What the heck are we trying to accomplish here?" reads as noise and stop energy to anyone with less than 2% interest in art / design.
<troy_s> http://blog.canonical.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/bestbuy.jpg
<troy_s> Remember, that thing got approved. Someone, somewhere, with some massive insight said "THAT'S IT - THAT'S PERFECT!"
<troy_s> vish: Which was my entire point with "Who is the art director?" ;)
<thorwil> troy_s: seeing that thing again, i want to return to the real world now, and leave this satire behind
<vish> AFAIK , none
<vish> heh , never knew Ubuntu has a boxed set ;)
<troy_s> vish: There is always a design direction, even in the absence of caring.
<vish> troy_s: what app do you use for comp.?
<troy_s> vish: I use the unfortunately cumbersome tools we have. The only one that gives me a degree of faith is Blender, but I am also forced into using GIMP. Inkscape as well.
<troy_s> Another classic - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_a6LMj16lz7g/SHNHgsFrshI/AAAAAAAAAF0/LroXB2GsQYg/s400/ubuntu_cd_cover.png
<thorwil> troy_s: do you know https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BusinessCards ?
<troy_s> thorwil: I do now.
<troy_s> thorwil: No screenie there.
<thorwil> troy_s: the fun is in the linked files
<troy_s> thorwil: ?
<troy_s> thorwil: Ariel?
<thorwil> troy_s: one SVG template with text that runs off the page
<troy_s> thorwil: I'm sure that fits perfectly with the rest of the design.
<thorwil> troy_s: or text turned into pathes. a non free font
<troy_s> thorwil: In theory that gets into sticky ground.
<thorwil> troy_s: a distorted CoF in the background
<troy_s> thorwil: You _are_ effectively distributing the source to a glyph. I'm pretty sure that some restrictive typeface license would probably find that against the eula.
<thorwil> troy_s: yeah. anyway, this thing should be editable on an ubuntu installation. i don't think using a free font would hurt the design
<troy_s> thorwil: Well not considering someone bloody well chose Arial which is very close to being a Helvetica knock off.
<thorwil> troy_s: of course any change regarding the templates would need an OK from Canonical. meanwhile this mess shows nobody actually took responsibility ...
<thorwil> how's that for great culture?
<troy_s> thorwil: You are trying to treat symptoms.
<thorwil> troy_s: so far i only noted this one
<troy_s> thorwil: One could cite a broad number of instances which all ultimately stem from a higher level.
<troy_s> thorwil / vish: Anyways, keep the chin up. You guys should roll Wolter into the mix and actually show some shared support. Refuse to do anything until you get a discourse.
<thorwil> troy_s: that's what i was thinking about a bit earlier. plus Mr. Nell. no idea where wolter might stand, actually
<troy_s> thorwil: While we are forced into operating differently than the mainstream, the stopping of spec work is equivalent. There is no reason that a project can't adopt a design team and iterate with them / her / him.
<troy_s> thorwil / vish: It makes sense, stops the absolutely abhorrent contest driven culture, and will ultimately lead to better work.
<vish> yeah.
<thorwil> vish: i'm talking with wolter in the manual channel
<troy_s> thorwil: There is a channel?
<thorwil> troy_s: #ubuntu-manual
<thorwil> troy_s: reaction on your work: thorwil, did that guy really print out a titlepage?
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL.
<troy_s> thorwil: Tell him thanks for the flattery.
<troy_s> thorwil: I guess even really really really quick comps can fool a few.
<thorwil> troy_s: is this in in line with your thoughts?: http://www.no-spec.com/
<troy_s> thorwil: Yes, but for different reasons entirely.
<thorwil> troy_s: was just asked to explain spec work ...
<thorwil> hmm, http://www.no-spec.com/articles/design-contests/
<troy_s> thorwil: Make no mistake, my distaste for spec / contest is the quality of output - the natural iterative design process. We are a culture and we have issues to deal with.
<troy_s> thorwil: Another solid take on it from a fellow that creates some pretty impressive work. http://www.davidairey.com/spec-work-in-the-internet-age/
<troy_s> http://www.davidairey.com/logo-design-contests-bad-for-business/
<vish> *sigh*
<troy_s> vish: ?
<vish> troy_s: oh , not you ;) ... just that the manual project is an unnecessary duplication ;)
<troy_s> vish: More epic fail design thinking. Go into a library and scream out that there are too many books.
<vish> troy_s: nah , not design , but the manual IMO , i dont see it being able to sustain over the long run :(
<troy_s> vish: If there is any duplication in earnest, then the teams haven't clearly defined their audiences. If there is only duplication in content but the language is different, then it is a justified design choice. I can't comment too much as I don't know the full issue at hand.
<vish> troy_s: they sort of intend to replace the help center [yelp documentation] rather than improving it or showing ways to improve it
<troy_s> vish: Hrm... Part of me wonders if there were a chance of improvement and incremental progress, why hasn't it been adopted yet? Things generally are a certain way because some party wants them that way.
<vish> and i dont really understand why you need a cover page for the purpose it is intending :s   ... the first impression for an in-place help is the contents..
<troy_s> vish: Most books have covers. Ebooks included. ;
<troy_s> :)
<troy_s> vish: Not exactly radical.
<troy_s> vish: Did you know there was a time when albums didn't have covers?
<troy_s> vish: In fact, albums came in white sheets.
<vish> ;)
<troy_s> vish: The original album distributor released the same album twice (some spikey arty designer type decided to do an album cover)
<vish> troy_s: that is packaging , when you have the user looking for help , you dont want the user to scroll the contents of the pdf , rather you would want to just click and go to what you want
<troy_s> vish: The result? Despite it being an identical copy of an orchestral Beethoven rendering in BOTH versions, the one with the album cover outsold it by something of an order of a magnitude. And with that, album covers were born...
<troy_s> vish: Hrm... you are very confident in your estimation.
<troy_s> vish: What is a user?
<troy_s> vish: Sounds like some strange background cardboard cutout character...
<troy_s> vish: Could not the same case be made for music in a player? "Just click and play! That's what people want!". If that were the case, Apple would never have developed CoverFlow nor the LP format.
<vish> troy_s: they want to address this user >  "Now he says "ok, how do I work this thing?"" quoting them
<troy_s> vish: I caution you to use terms like 'user' when you really are dealing with an extremely vast and complicated set of _people_.
<troy_s> vish: With that statement you made a series of _massive_ judgement calls. You probably didn't notice, but you also made a egocentric judgement call too - 'him'.
<vish> troy_s: cover flow _is_ contents of the library ;)
<troy_s> vish: What I am getting at is that in spite of your legitimate attempt to make things better, you are actually bundling up a horrible amount of judgement calls and estimations. Some might be close for a given audience, some might be _far_ off for another.
<troy_s> vish: Better should have been 'better'.
<troy_s> vish: In the end, 'user' is a blind and useless term.
<vish> troy_s: IMO ,[i maybe wrong ;)  ] just a plain cover isnt helpful for a in-place help docs... its like opening the iTunes and the user having to select/click an awesome apple logo to enter... its just adding an unnecessary step to what the usr is actually trying to achive
<troy_s> vish: Hrm... what about a book reader that uses the first page as the icon?
<troy_s> vish: Does typesetting matter if you can read it?
<troy_s> vish: What about the typeface chosen?
<vish> troy_s: that definitely needs a cover :) ..
<troy_s> vish: Does a book have a presence? If not, why do publishers spend large amounts of money soliciting artists? Is it purely off-the-shelf advertising or maybe something else?
<vish> books need covers no questions/rebuttals ;)
<vish> but they hope for the manual to be a help center..   I would think having a stylized contents page would be better...
<troy_s> vish: It's pretty complicated. While I'd agree that in some contexts for some audiences, they are nothing more than a frivolity, in some other situations they are functional and even desireable.
<vish> troy_s: but when they want the manual to be a book it sounds good to use a cover.. my whole point is _they_ dont really know what audience they want to serve :(
<troy_s> vish: Heck - what is a beginner? Someone with zero computing experience? What are the chances that they would be installing Ubuntu? How does that affect the language? Is there a glossary? Do you need one?
<troy_s> vish: Bingo.
<troy_s> vish: We are _horribly_ egocentric in Free Software - a growing pain. We make gross estimations as to what is _obvious to us_ and _assume_ that they are obvious or pertinent to others. It's growing pains.
<vish> ;) lot of folks are egocentric for sure
<vish> troy_s: the driving force for the person who started the manual project , is "This will surely get me an Ubuntu membership" ..
<troy_s> vish: Yikes.
<vish> he was rejected earlier for membership
<troy_s> vish: Anyways... hopefully it will get sorted out.
<vish>  he surely has a lot of enthusiasm , hope it eventually helps the community :)
<thorwil> vish: do you have that first hand, the driving force?
<vish> thorwil: i'v been logged on the channel since it was started... ;)
<thorwil> i don't know if i have a whole lot of respect for someone who puts becoming-a-member first
<thorwil> vish: heh, be my spy :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Ugh. Were you chatting over in the channel?
<thorwil> troy_s: yes, and writing email to everyone who made a design proposal
<troy_s> thorwil: Don't be prickly about it. The issue is a larger one.
 * thorwil learned how to use Mako templates with the Google App Engine earlier today. well, almost
<thorwil> good night! :)
<wolter> hi, is there a way I can make a particular icon set position emblems differently?
<wolter> I dislike how the Humanity theme puts them up to the right and not down, like other themes used to
<troy_s> wolter: What do you mean?
<troy_s> wolter: Strictly emblem positions?
<wolter> troy_s, yes
<troy_s> wolter: Did you try googling "control emblem positions gnome"?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-20
<wolter> not literally
<wolter> now that you provide me with such query, I see some useful results appear enlisted.
<wolter> well troy_s, not really
<wolter> I saw GEmblemedIcon, but that is for programming uses only, as far as I understood
<wolter> so troy_s, is it possible?
<troy_s> wolter: Judging from the pages I have read, and the bug report... https://bugs.launchpad.net/humanity/+bug/455879
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 455879 in humanity "Emblems position wish" [Wishlist,Fix committed]
<troy_s> wolter: My best guess is that the answer is no.
<wolter> Oh, too bad, thank you anyway.
 * thorwil giggles
<thorwil> http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/microsoft_office_version_bland0.php
<thorwil> seems the manual issue inspired Troy to write about spec work / contests: http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2010/01/specs-and-contests-we-all-lose.html
<thorwil> a must for everyone doing presentations with a beamer: http://www.slideshare.net/thecroaker/death-by-powerpoint
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-21
<kwwii> good morning all, /me is back after a day sick in bed
<wedderburn> hope yu're feeling better now then?
<kwwii> yepp, almost 100% again ;)
<wedderburn> sweet stuff :)
<kwwii> scared to open my mail client for fear of the amount of unanswered email but hey ;)
<wedderburn> :), mostly mailing list stuff i hope
<DanRabbit> kwwii: glad you're no longer sick :)
<kwwii> DanRabbit: hehe, me too...I think I had food poisening
<DanRabbit> kwwii: ah, that sucks :(
<kwwii> essentialy, I had to puke every half an hour for 24 hours
<kwwii> I wanted to sleep in the bathroom :p
<DanRabbit> wow
<kwwii> it was not a nice experience (and I had to postpone my trip to london this week)
<DanRabbit> kwwii: btw, in case you want to taste the dark side: http://www.elementary-project.com/downloads/elementary-os/elementary_OS_0.0.9.iso
<DanRabbit> oh that's even worse :(
<kwwii> oooh, cool...what did you change in that iso?
<DanRabbit> a lot of stuff :p
<DanRabbit> I removed openoffice and use gnome office instead.
<DanRabbit> so that made a lot of room for docky and Do
<kwwii> killer, you should post a description and link to the art list
<DanRabbit> well, it's not ready for prime time yet :p
<DanRabbit> I'm just seeding out a few alphas here and there ;)
<DanRabbit> but magical things are coming
<DanRabbit> kwwii: did you see the new nautilus stuff we're working on? :D
<kwwii> DanRabbit: nope, link?
<DanRabbit> h/o
<kwwii> kinda funny, the only time we get to chat is when I get up at 6am :p
<DanRabbit> kwwii: http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/01/nautilus-simple-install-ppa-streamlined.html
<DanRabbit> lol
<DanRabbit> it's 10:20 PM here
<kwwii> oh wow, that is nice
<kwwii> killer stuff
<DanRabbit> I'm really excited about that one
<DanRabbit> we have redo/undo and RGBA ;)
<kwwii> yeah, no doubt....that can really change the way you interact with the computer
<kwwii> nice...I bet djsiegel likes it too ;)
<DanRabbit> I actually haven't talked to him about it
<kwwii> hehe
<DanRabbit> but I hope so ;) we're kinda picking up where marcus left off :p
<kwwii> nautilus really needs fixing. It seems oyu are going down the right road :)
<DanRabbit> thanks :)
<DanRabbit> all in all, I'm really excited about the stuff we're doing with elementary, and hopefully it can be a proving ground so you can get some sexyness into ubuntu ;)
<kwwii> it is an excellent way to get your ideas seen and incorporated into ubuntu...just explaining things doesn't always do the trick
<DanRabbit> kwwii: I'm just really excited because now I'm running elementary OS full time :p
<kwwii> hehe, that is a good feeling, isn't it? to know that your OS is something you made
<kwwii> years ago, all my computers at home ran a system which I built myself. Hard, but satisfying
<DanRabbit> yea, it feels awesome.
<kwwii> actually, that just proves that I am a geek ;)
<DanRabbit> I'm glad this is a lot easier thanks to Reconstructor.
<kwwii> no doubt ;)
<DanRabbit> I've been keeping in close contact with the main dev and it's been awesome to work with him :)
<kwwii> I used to spend an entire week or so, bootstrapping, building everything myself, etc
<DanRabbit> haha, yea I don't have to do any of that >.<
<DanRabbit> It's just based on shell scripts :p
<kwwii> once you find someone you work well with, stick with it at all costs...a good developer is the most important thing a designer with ideas needs
<DanRabbit> I'm lucky because I keep running into all kinds of awesome developers :D
<DanRabbit> there is so much talent out there its incredible
<kwwii> yeah, that is the feeling I get at every UDS
<kwwii> you look around and realize that there are a *lot* of intelligent people working on ubuntu
<DanRabbit> yea
<kwwii> btw, where did you say you live?
<kwwii> we are going to be in portland the first week of feb
<DanRabbit> kwwii: I'm in Sacramento, CA
<DanRabbit> so that's not terribly far away :p
<DanRabbit> kwwii: hey my gf wants attention, so mail me or just leave a message and I'll check it later ;)
<DanRabbit> btw, my email is Daniel.p.fore@gmail.com
<DanRabbit> bye
<kwwii> DanRabbit: cool, have fun!
<kwwii> thnx
<DanRabbit> haha, not that kind of attention :p
<kwwii> lol
<DanRabbit> she has some Hunny-Do's
<kwwii> still sweet ;)
<troy_s> Greets coz_
<coz_> troy_s,  hey guy
 * wedderburn greets troy_s
<wedderburn> and coz_
<wedderburn> and all
<troy_s> Wow... a couple of faces moving.
<troy_s> How are you two doing?
<wedderburn> can't complain :P
<wedderburn> and your self?
<coz_> I am well   thanks:)  how about yourself
<troy_s> Holding down the fort.
<coz_> wedderburn,  hey guy
<coz_> so ..have any Odd Nerdrums appeared  lately
<troy_s> coz_: Lol... more than a few.
<coz_> :)
 * wedderburn is updating the deluge icon :P
<coz_> wedderburn, ooo...cool... I always thought that needed a bit of tweaking
 * vish always wondered why the deluge icon was a *single* drop ;)
<wedderburn> well it was only ment to be a 48x48 icon, and its a single drop with a wave in it :P
<vish> ah..
<wedderburn> and if you pay real attention to the icons on your computer you'll notice that i reused the deluge icon for the compiz water effect plugin ;)
<wedderburn> http://andrew.wedderburn.googlepages.com/deluge_256_2.png is what i got so far, still very much a WIP
<coz_> wedderburn,  much nicer... I always wondered why that strange curve was there...
<vish> wedderburn: the 256 to keepup with gnome ? yeah those things take a lot of time :(
<wedderburn> ya, updating ubuntu studio's icons for 256 as we speak :P
<wedderburn> they take a fair ammount of time
<vish> wedderburn: i thought cory wanted something based on breathe
<wedderburn> cory left the project recently
<wedderburn> and i've got holidays so i decided to come back and see what i could do
<troy_s> vish: Did you and thorwil sort out the gongshow on u-m?
<vish> yea..k..  nice
<vish> troy_s: not yet... its been slow progress
<coz_> who would be responsible for cursor themes in ubuntu?
<troy_s> vish: It is hard trying to explain things like that because most of the time you get those blinking eyes and the very clear idea that the folks you are speaking to have no clue what you just tried to explain.
 * wedderburn misses the black cursor from ubuntu old 
<vish> coz_: kwwii ? i asked earlier , but are there better ones?
<troy_s> coz_: If you mean mouse cursor, that is a hand-me-down from jimmac's.
<coz_> troy_s,  oh  mm
<troy_s> coz_: Rather it is jimmac's
<troy_s> coz_: Hasn't changed ... ever?
<wedderburn> and he made a rather nice dark version :P
<coz_> vish,  yeah there are much better themes    I believe the  fellow who did the   ubuntu crystal cursor is one
<troy_s> coz_: It's like bickering over the number of sesame seeds in a hero shot of the burger.
<coz_> :)
<coz_> troy_s,  I kind of figured it might be a useless cause
<troy_s> coz_: Incremental minutiae of irrelevance.
<vish> coz_: i'v asked kwwii about this , but I didnt know of any better cursors at the time  :( ... maybe you can point out the cursor to kwwii
<troy_s> coz_: It is dead easy to make them.
<troy_s> coz_: xcursorgen
<coz_> vish,  ok   thanks....
<wedderburn> fedora's got a nice default cursor
 * vish uses oxygen-extra cursors ..
<coz_> troy_s,  thanks... I maybe...or might...perhaps try
<troy_s> wedderburn: What does nice mean?
<wedderburn> troy_s: i have a preference for it over ubuntu's default
<troy_s> wedderburn: Ah.
<vish> i like the animation the fedora one has for the "waiting"
<wedderburn> yeah thats what i liked best about it vish
<wedderburn> coz_: heres the two cursor sets jimmac made btw http://jimmac.musichall.cz/themes.php?skin=7
<coz_> mm I have tried those in the past
<troy_s> ugh
<troy_s> Ok... it's time for bed methinks. Chat soon folks. Keep the torch burning.
<coz_> troy_s, sleep well guy
<wedderburn> troy_s: sleep well n all
<coz_> darkmatter,  morning guy
<darkmatter> morning coz_
<darkmatter> freaking metacity patch broke policykit. that was fun to fix
<coz_> eeww
<darkmatter> had no desktop. just mouse/wallpaper xD
<darkmatter> but got it temporarily working then removed the patch and locked metacity so I don't get the 'omg! update me!" garbage later
<kwwii> wow, quite a discussion this morning :p
<kwwii> I think the DMZ cursors are too blocky (but well done)
<kwwii> if anyone hasn't seen http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/01/nautilus-simple-install-ppa-streamlined.html they should take a look at it
<darkmatter> DMZ-AA is awesome. and non-bulky. it's the whole color inversion thingy
<darkmatter> I'll install a simplified nautilus when I see a simplified nautilus ;P
<vish> kwwii: 6month old news if you were involved in papercuts ;p Marcus did the work long back , and has had a ppa , but the nautilus devs havent merged his changes yet ;)
<vish> s/;)/:(
<kwwii> vish: if only I had more time for papercuts :p
<coz_> what is the ppa address?
<kwwii> coz_: that page has all the info
<vish> DanRabbit: "following patched version of Nautilus by the Elementary Team." would be nicer if Marcus was actually given credit for the work ;)
<coz_> kwwii,  ah sorry didnt see that
<coz_> mm I have a few issues with the "Elementary team"
<kwwii> darkmatter: what bugs me in DMZ is the hand and the corner arrows
<vish> coz_: hmm?
<kwwii> coz_: hehe, creative people can be hard to deal with
<coz_> no consitency with the elementary icons  and I had to redo them to for my own use to keep them consitent
<darkmatter> kwwii: ahh.. yeah. the resize cursors are a bit large
<coz_> kwwii,  :)  I know   .... i can also be difficutlt
<vish> kwwii: David knows about the nautilus changes too , btw[just read a bit of scrollback] ;)
<vish> coz_: yeah , there are a few inconsistencies :)
<kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, right
<kwwii> oh well, I think I will take a break and have a late breakfast...bbl
<coz_> kwwii,   sounds like a good idea:)
<coz_> kwwii,  i just ate breakfast here but it is onley 3am :)
<kwwii> hehe, 9 here...but I amazingly started work today at 6am
<kwwii> ;)
<coz_> :)
<kwwii> coz_: are you getting up now or going to bed soon?
<coz_> kwwii,  getting up actually.. I took a long nap last night and found "morning" when a woke :)
<kwwii> hehe, killer...having a kid pretty much ended any chance of that happening to me again
<coz_> lol
<coz_> kwwii,  thank god mine are all gone :)
<darkmatter> I just woke up myself. well. technically my wife woke me up. women are so naughty and selfish. I shoulda just gotten a cat. but the behavior is about the same *shrug*
<coz_> darkmatter,   I like cats...but I only get male cats :)
<darkmatter> hehe
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> I like cats too, but their dander hates me
<wedderburn> hope you got it de-sexed, mate of mine her family breeds them :\
<wedderburn> i don't go over there when they're all active
<coz_> wedderburn,  oh yeah ...the first time he sprayed in the house I kicked him into the street...he was gone 3 days  and I decided i prefer to keep him so off they came :)
<wedderburn> sounds like good thinking to me :P
<coz_> he is still the bully of the neigborhood  but I try to keep him indoors
<wedderburn> when i lived in perth in western australia, they have a bit of a feral cat issue well at night you would get about 4-5 of them fighting over my back yard
<coz_> whoa
<coz_> wedderburn,   that is definitly a nuisance
<darkmatter> wedderburn: my brother has a female tabby currently in heat. he has a heated catbox outside for strays to warm up in. every time she sees one through the window she gets all giddy and exorcist like (rotating head thing). it's so annoying. little furball biting at your ankles and attempting to drag you to the door so she go 'boy crazy' or what ever
<coz_> wedderburn,   how is perth?  I wanted to go there sometime!
<darkmatter> like I said, the parallels are so uncanny they're crazy
<wedderburn> coz_: in summer its the best place to be, good beachs all over and if you drive a little more than most you'll have the place to your self :)
<coz_> wedderburn,  cool :)  and in the winter?
<wedderburn> darkmatter: sounds about right
<wedderburn> coz_: well its not actually that bad, it just rains alot
<coz_> wedderburn,  what about cost of living?
<wedderburn> in winter
<wedderburn> coz_: depends how close you want to live to the CBD
<wedderburn> the further out you are the cheaper it is
<coz_> cool
<wedderburn> its cheeper than melbourne to rent though so thats good
<coz_> wedderburn,  people still live underground  near the opal mines?
<darkmatter> the spca here has a program to fix them for free (for people with low wages etc). he's on the list but hasn't gotten a vet appointment yet
<wedderburn> coz_: thats in coopapedie( or how ever you spell it) and thats in the outback in south australia
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)
<coz_> wedderburn,  oh !
<wedderburn> coz_: nah most of australia is above ground in fairly modern cities near the coast
<coz_> wedderburn,  i was under the impression there were underground homes near perth
<wedderburn> maybe in kalgoolie
<wedderburn> suppose thats relativly close to perth
<coz_> wedderburn,  oh ok
<coz_> anywhere but the US would be fine :)
<wedderburn> well sydney's even relatively(883kms / 549 miles) close to melbourne so its all pretty relative :P
<coz_> austrailia is mostly coastal living like south america  right?
<darkmatter> speaking of underground homes, who wants to donate to my Hobbit-Hole Fund? I intend to die an eccentric recluse ;)
<coz_> darkmatter,  :)   I dont blame you for that :)
<wedderburn> coz_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_living for your underground living question, and yeah its all coastal living our capital and alice springs are the only real places of note that arn't near the coast
<coz_> yep that's them :)
<coz_> I always found this interesting.... and cool  no pun intended
<coz_> although they could do with a little colour on the walls :)
<wedderburn> basically you got the coast line then the center which is just dessert not much out there
<coz_> that elementary nautilus is not that impressive
<wedderburn> looks nicer than before
<coz_> wedderburn,  well yeah as long as they included a quick   "revert"  tick box or button.... I somehow think that the average user is not going to fair well with this
<wedderburn> average user just wants to copy and paste things :P
<wedderburn> and find documents
<coz_> wedderburn,  and have some sense of reliability even with changes
<wedderburn> i know thats all i use nautilus for really
<coz_> :)
<coz_> me too
<darkmatter> coz_: it's not impressive because it's not simplified as per the claim. it's 'compacted' perhaps, but it's still the same mess as usual
<wedderburn> and since it doesn't hinder that i can't see the negative side :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  I agree  which is one of my complaints with elementary project
<coz_> wedderburn,  yeah I kind of like nautilus as is.... when a really good design change comes along I might give it a try
<wedderburn> the thing that needs fixing the most is the UI system  open office uses to get themes from gnome, its a wee bit broken on anything other than clearlooks :\
<darkmatter> coz_: my complaint with th 'improved' nautilus is that it's more cluttered than before. sure, the unpatched nautilus has slightly to much chrome, but at least there is enough whitespace to distinguish the elements from eachother.
<coz_> wedderburn,  agreed
<kwwii> wedderburn: OOo and firefox don't count :p
<coz_> darkmatter,   i agree with that also
<wedderburn> kwwii: love that theory :P, but OO really does stop most distro's from shipping vastly different gtk themes :\
<darkmatter> coz_: I have the same issues with other 'minimal' ui's as well. chrome being a fine example. as a general rule less ui is better, but not if it sacrifices usability or usefulness
<kwwii> darkmatter: I think part of that comlaint is due to the simplicity of the theme though
<kwwii> wedderburn: trust me, I know...there is little one can do about either of them
<vish> darkmatter: we dont need a lot of the buttons on the chrome... a lot of those can be removed
<coz_> darkmatter,  or clean appearance as well
<kwwii> at least firefox listens before they say no :p
<vish> nautilus chrome*
<coz_> personally ... I prefer kde's  dolphin over nautilus
<darkmatter> vish: by default, no we don't. but I wasn't talking exclusively about buttons, so I should actually thank you for mentioning that. because simplification for the sake of simplification is criminal. nearly as criminal as bloated ui's like OO.o, I'll explain in a bit. need coffee. brb
<coz_> :)
<vish> ;)
<thorwil> vish: first wolter says hi to me and disappears immediately, then Kolorguild comes and goes like that ^
<vish> >.<
<vish> heh , liferea is great , cuts out all the comments [mainly comments from OMG :D]
<vish> thorwil: i think they are not in a hurry  , since it can be done even near the end
<vish> probably after beta Lucid release..
<thorwil> vish: i'm not in favor of the student approach
<vish> :)
<darkmatter> back
<vish> thorwil: did you send the mail to David Nel and benjamin as well? [I didnt see them in the cc]
<thorwil> vish: they were supposed to be in To:
<thorwil> vish: i just noticed something went wrong, as David is missing in my Sent copy
<vish> thorwil: oh.. i dont see them in the To: either
<thorwil> in same places, Evolutions hasn't been intelligently designed
<thorwil> vish: send again, with David in To and you and wolter in CC. please confirm
<vish> yup
<vish> good now
<thorwil> phew :)
<vish> brb
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm working on a new class of ui, though I'm not sure what to call it
<coz_> darkmatter,   cool....I cant think of a name off hand :)
<vish> Damn it .. "Avatar" is kinda taken
<darkmatter> coz_: basically it's a matter of removing the cons of ui design. atm there are two major types. inductive and deductive. though they aren't really used in conjunction in a consistent or meaningful way. we see inductive ui's primarily on the web, and local ui's are almost exclusively deductive
<thorwil> call it nooclass
<vish> thorwil: i'm not sure Wolter's assessment that the manual is supposed to a help documentation is not right... IMO ,it seems more like an introduction to Ubuntu.. just have a look at most of the chapters
<vish> it has history/geograhy/etc.. ;)
<thorwil> vish: you are not sure that he is not right ... ever programmed something? ;)
<vish> argh! damn! you are not sure that he is right ;0
<darkmatter> now, as a general rule, induction should take precedence over deduction, as it utilizes a faster approach to pattern recognition, is simple yet powerful in its own right, and tends to be elegant when executed properly
<vish> s/you/I'm
<vish> thorwil: xchat has this small single line input box and i cant notice what I'v typed :(  so many mistakes i'm bound to make
<darkmatter> however since inductive ui's tend to deal with one task per view, they slow productivity for more complex tasks or repetitive tasks (such as adding accounts to a system with numerous users for example)
 * vish needs to stick to single line replies... easier to catch mistakes
<thorwil> vish: i'm using xchat, too. but i don't know the number of mistakes i'm bound to make
<vish> thorwil: well,  i'm sure to make a *lot*... so expect more :D
<darkmatter> the basic idea is to create a schedule based interface metaphor that takes the strongest selling points of both the inductive and deductive interfaces while weeding out as many of the negatives as possible
<coz_> darkmatter,  you lost me on this one :)
<coz_> guys I thought I was well rested but apparently not...going for nap
<coz_> be back later
<darkmatter> schedule based, because, well, I've been trying to sell the idea for years. basically timelines (not unlike what is now provided by zeitgeist), but presented on a task/activity level, both within individual libraries/interfaces as well as through a global history function
<darkmatter> organized by relevance instead of just the 'day one, day two *all my crap is crammed together!*' approach
<kwwii> does anyone here understand how the metacity left_left_background and such work?
<wedderburn> cool, youtube now supports html5 vid :P
 * kwwii is off to the store for groceries...bbl
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-22
<thorwil> http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2010/01/21/realism_in_ui_design/
<thorwil> vish: hi! what do you think, mail to Humphrey or waiting to catch him on irc?
<vish> thorwil: we can mail him , why wait?
<thorwil> vish: gives a different feel. but ok ... do you feel like writing something? :)
<vish> thorwil: i'm usually not around on irc when he is around , nz timezone is a bit early or late for me ;p
<thorwil> vish: i thought you were on 24/7! ^^
<vish> thorwil: i'm logged on.. but he isnt ;)
<troy_s> What's up guys?
<troy_s> How is everyone?
<thorwil> troy_s: hi! all 4 of us who submitted manual title page stuff now agree on not continuing like that
<troy_s> thorwil: Well good on you guys.
<thorwil> i have a nasty sinusitis
<troy_s> thorwil: Hopefully you can all bring something to the table. It is difficult to arrive at a solution that a single person, let alone four, can agree upon.
<troy_s> But if you keep the goal in sight and try to keep things focused, it might be entirely possible.
<thorwil> troy_s: i'm very much willing to step into the background, especially if that helps to get things forward
<thorwil> funny how sinusitis seems to be common in english. a direct translation of the usual german term would be nose-side-cavity-inflammation :)
<troy_s> thorwil: The trick will be to see if the output will shift.
<troy_s> thorwil: If it doesn't, it is all for naught. You have each followed your own paths for a reason. The culmination shouldn't just be a melding of the ideas...
<thorwil> troy_s: i thought we just cut the designs in quarters and combine one slice from each of us to for the final
<troy_s> Exactly
<troy_s> thorwil: Perfect.
<troy_s> thorwil: Flop a nice gloss curve on it and a wet floor reflection and you are probably there. Easy on the eyes, usable (if you triple bold and outline the title), and professional.
<troy_s> thorwil: Whatever the hell professional means.
<thorwil> not to forget a lens flare. very trendy
<troy_s> thorwil: Lens flares unfortunately aren't trendy.
<thorwil> pah, people just didn't realize they can be combined with the wet floor effect perfectly, yet
<troy_s> thorwil: Our little culture has enough problems without adding style. Probably a good start would be "OK... what is a good typeface? Why? Can we develop something solid using _just_ the typeface?" etc.
<troy_s> thorwil: Might be a good place to start for you four :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Could be an interesting discussion. lol.
<thorwil> troy_s: first comes a mail to the project leader. plans to be made after his response, as far as i'm concerned
<troy_s> thorwil: Might be an interesting exercise regardless.
<troy_s> thorwil: S3 the opaque lynx cover you did.
<troy_s> thorwil: I want to see something.
<thorwil> i would like to see something that diminishes its likeness with a snail or alien. without introducing the details that would be obvious and a break from the solid shape
<troy_s> thorwil: Put it up somehwere.
<thorwil> troy_s: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/ubuntu_manual_cover/annotate/head%3A/manual_cover_thorwil.svg
<thorwil> troy_s: i've been using launchpad for such things ever since i saw your work for ubuntu-women
<troy_s> thorwil: It can be pretty darn useful for group sharing / branching etc.
<troy_s> thorwil: It also solves the issue of things vapourizing.
<thorwil> troy_s: for me it's mainly offsite backup so far, just with additional potential
<troy_s> thorwil: Those phi guides?
<thorwil> troy_s: hum?
<troy_s> thorwil: In the svg :)
<thorwil> yes, they are
<troy_s> thorwil: As soon as you start putting critters on the cover of manuals, you are heading down a path of mimicry. It is deadly difficult to avoid that.
<troy_s> thorwil: I don't know if it is possible.
<thorwil> troy_s: i suspect that once we really think about what that page should get across, there might be no room left for a lynx. however, one could argue about making-contributors-happy being a valid requirement (if there should be a majority that wants a lynx ...)
<troy_s> thorwil: If you weigh it against the classic "We are already fighting an uphill battle against outside eyeballs thinking we imitate / replicate / duplicate _all the time_."
<thorwil> troy_s: a version number rendered in lynx fur will solve that issue ^^
<troy_s> thorwil: We have a big problem culturally as we have developed this nasty 'design presence'... rather like me saying to you "Microsoft is designing a new product" versus "Nintendo is designing a new product" - you have a visceral reaction to both of those statements. That's the design presence.
<troy_s> thorwil: If someone says "New Free Software design!", very likely there is a gut-wrenching "oh please not more"
<thorwil> gut-wrenching ... that's a strong identity, then
<troy_s> thorwil: So avoiding the 'yet-another-connection-to-oreilly-press' is a _very_ obvious pitfall to avoid in my estimation.
<troy_s> thorwil: Sure is.
<troy_s> :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Strong on the wrong side of the metric.
<troy_s> thorwil: And also why Ubuntu's little binge into iLame is truly horrible.
<thorwil> troy_s: are you referring to the screenshots/tour page?
<troy_s> thorwil: Indeed.
<coz_> no lynx  ...just my opinion
<troy_s> coz_: I'd agree simply on the merits of 1) the lynx aren't adding much 2) the direct link to oreilly press.
<coz_> the only reason I say that is I wouldnt like to see  photos of a lynx or photoshoped photos of a lynx
<coz_> if it were a  hand drawn quality rendering then maybe
<coz_> the outstanding visual feature of a lynx are the tuffed ears
<troy_s> coz_: Agree. the lynx there aren't bringing any sort of craftsmanship / artistry to the table.
<coz_> maybe thats all that is needed
<coz_> in the beginning I was doing animal paintings for ubuntu   ....badges...etc   no one liked them and looking back...even though hand done...they are   "heavy"  to look at
<coz_> I nice abstract tastefully done would be
<coz_> nice
<coz_> I meant "a nice abstract"
<coz_> of course no one asked my opinion :)
<coz_> dont mind me ... I am somewhat in a bad
<coz_> mood
<coz_> I am tired
<coz_> not typing correctly first :)
<coz_> damn fingers
<coz_> it's very "easy"  and to the untrained eye..rather "pretty" to use a photo  ,,,ad a filter to it and call it a picture
<troy_s> coz_: Sorry to hear that.
<coz_> or using the ubuntu symbol   ....way overdone
<coz_> both of w hich...in the right hands can yield some very attractive results
<coz_> but I havent seen any of that
<coz_> I'll stop there before someone challenges me to do better lol
<thorwil> damn!
<thorwil> ;)
<coz_> :)
<coz_> ooo I hope I didnt cause the conversation to stop?
<troy_s> coz_: No... I'm rendering.
<troy_s> lol
<coz_> oh phew
<troy_s> coz_: I'd agree with you on the 'artistic' side of things... I'm just not exactly certain that animals on book covers delivers much.
<troy_s> coz_: Other than the obvious and knee jerk response that anyone in tech knows of - the OReilly connection.
<thorwil> the OSX parallel is much more hurtful
<coz_> thorwil,  the themeing influence you mean?
<troy_s> thorwil: I wouldn't worry about that too much.
<thorwil> coz_: a cat for a release version, even the 10 is present
<coz_> oh
<troy_s> thorwil: It's a book. Context keeps it away from OSX I'd estimate. It _does not_ keep it away from "Learning with Python" :)
<coz_> I understand
<thorwil> well, i now listed the following reasons against the lynx: hard to get right, O'Reilley, OSX, potentially in conflict with the desired tone
<troy_s> thorwil: Probably a pretty good summary. Certainly not easy to 'get right' in terms of an artistic flair to it... it's a rare ability to synthesize that.
<troy_s> coz_: Have you been doing anything of late?
<thorwil> one could add that the codenames weren't meant to hit mainstream, but that they do might be beneficial. at least as long cats are avoided :)
<troy_s> coz_: Abstracts?
<troy_s> thorwil: The upside of the codenames is that, at least for hardy, it was an excuse to actually build some sort of bloody emotion into the thing without everyone freaking out. It arguably worked to that end.
<thorwil> ack
<troy_s> thorwil: Maybe just try the type thing.
<troy_s> thorwil: Start with at least _trying_ to get a bare minimum in place and analysing the roots... Kolor's for example, let's you at least go 'Ok... is the type working?' without being distracted by a 100 other things.
<troy_s> thorwil: Strip out all of the complex responses (bad composition, bad treatment, bad copy, poor art, etc.)
<troy_s> thorwil: And see if you can at least make some hay  there.
<troy_s> thorwil: Obviously if you add in another element, you would need to analyse it in context, but at the very least, you at least have a good starting point for figuring out what elements are working on their own.
<coz_> troy_s,  something non representational
<coz_> did I ever mention I like Odd Nerdrum :)
<coz_> the name alone is so cool :)
<coz_> ok I have to get to the store and eat supper....sorry for interupping here....they were just my opinions...if I get good and worked up  I may even submit something :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-23
<kwwii> DanRabbit: hey, just installed elementary OS on my sons laptop
<kwwii> he likes it ;)
 * kwwii heads off to bed
<DanRabbit> kwwii: awesome!!
<Equiet> Is it possible to make sidebar in Nautilus like this: http://ankere.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/d181d0bdd0b8d0bcd0bad0b0-2.png ?
<coz_> Equiet, I believe so
<coz_> Equiet, the gtk2 theme you use may have color options and you can look under Edit  emblems and backgrounds
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-17
<iainfarrell> hey evilvish
<iainfarrell> are you there?
<evilvish> iainfarrell: hey..
<iainfarrell> hey evilvish we had a comment on the blog over the weekend
<iainfarrell> people weren't getting confirmation
<iainfarrell> from the artwork site
<evilvish> hmm.. /me checks..
<evilvish> iainfarrell: the comment from alex?  i dont think we receive a confirmation email..
<evilvish> granted i did first signup using openID..
<evilvish> iainfarrell: how did you signup?
<iainfarrell> it's not me
<iainfarrell> see the design blog comments
<iainfarrell> I've not tried yet
<evilvish> iainfarrell: OpenID login is broken , ideally it needs to be removed as a login option.. daker was looking into it and not sure what the progress on that is..
<evilvish> daker: any update?
<evilvish> removed or fixed*
<daker> evilvish, sorry i didn't have time to look at it :s
<evilvish> daker: :(  could you look at it sooner, seems people are having trouble..
<evilvish> daker: and they need to be able to login to submit ;)
<daker> sure i'll do tonight
<evilvish> daker: cool! thx
<evilvish> iainfarrell: i thought you said you had signed up at the site the other day itself? with the ID 'iainfarrell' , when i was mentioning about admin rights
<iainfarrell> ahh I did that too evilvish
<evilvish> cool!
<iainfarrell> I just saw the comments now when I came in
<evilvish> yea, i see only one comment from alex about not receiving an email.. weird
<evilvish> iainfarrell: how did you signup? OpenID or.. new account?
<evilvish> i dont think it sends mail confirmation.
<iainfarrell> I think I just signed up
<evilvish> iainfarrell: yea.. i think he can just login and submit.. he is probably expecting a mail confirmation code or something, like how other sites do..
<iainfarrell> I can't log in so have requested a password reset
<evilvish> oh!
<evilvish> oh well.. I'v removed the OpenID login as an option for now until daker is able to fix it..
<evilvish> iainfarrell: i'v also changed the new user registration to just allow immediate login without email confirmation
<evilvish> bah! the login page has a button named "new user?"  not sure what that even does o.0
<evilvish> daker: when you are looking at it , can you remove that 'new user?' button..
<evilvish> the 'Register' on side is the actual place for new users
<daker> evilvish, yes i saw it
<daker> i'll do
<evilvish> thx..
<daker> Q : how do i show the desktop in Unity (2D) ?
<evilvish> daker: well, 2d unity is the old maverick Unity which has no desktop
<daker> :s
<thorwil> hi! i have one tarball and one PPA that need testing. note that the setup file in the tarball does not take care of uninstall, but there are only few files to take care of
<thorwil> https://launchpad.net/~t-w-/+archive/ppa
<thorwil> http://launchpad.net/backtestground/packaging/release0.2-2/+download/backtestground-0.2-2.tar.bz2
<thorwil> ivanka: happy new year! your question if there's someone in our community creating such nice little animations (or whatever your words were exactly) made me shed a tear! for out of the dark depths of my mind, a voice said: few could even manage to create a single frame of that, standing still.
<ivanka> thorwil: It is a shame. How do we change that?
<thorwil> ivanka: maybe i'm just a pessimistic snob. but if not, the question would be how to get volunteers to study and train design (and then not losing them to the commercial world taking up almost all  their time)
<thorwil> aside of that, there's a clear need for decent free/open authoring software
<phawk> hello
<phawk> how do i auth on freenode?
<daker> phawk, if you already have an account juste type : /msg NickServ identify <password>
<phawk> cheers
<phawk> you guys part of the artwork team?
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-18
<kwwii> good morning
<thorwil> morning!
<badpenguin86> How do you submit a wallpaper if you want to make one for consideration in Natty?
<thorwil> http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/html5_validates_with_new_logo.php
<thorwil> 0.o http://www.heyokay.com/2009/ubuntu-release-party/
<zniavre> hahaha  :o)  hum sorry ...
<evilvish> the CSS3 one looks neat!!
<evilvish> huh! why dont they even bother aligning..
<evilvish> to pixel grid*
<darkmatter> misalignes evilvishs pixels
<darkmatter> -e
<evilvish> nah.. was checking out the html5 svgs and they already have them misaligned ;p
<phawk> hello
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-19
<evilvish> morning..
<thorwil> good morning evilvish
<iainfarrell> hey evilvish
<iainfarrell> we're getting more reported issues on the artwork site again
<iainfarrell> have you heard anything?
<evilvish> iainfarrell: hey.. i changed a few settings , so hopefully we should have less blockers.
<iainfarrell> cool
<iainfarrell> would you mind replying to that person on the guest blog?
<iainfarrell> on the blog even
<evilvish> and think go of the devil, daker arrives ;p
<iainfarrell> http://design.canonical.com/2011/01/bright-light-and-beautiful/
<evilvish> -go
<daker> hello evilvish iainfarrell
<iainfarrell> hey daker
<evilvish> iainfarrell: OpenID is off, and new user registration should allow directly to submit..
 * evilvish tries with new user ID
<evilvish> daker: last comment  of the link iainfarrell just posted Â» The submission form seems to be broken, generating this error:
<evilvish> â/srv/www/art.ubuntu-owl.org/htdocs/cchost_lib/cc-events.phpâ(222): Parameter 2 to CCEditorials::OnGetSysTags() expected to be a reference, value given [2011-01-18 20:56 pm][174.62.222.222][/submit/fullmix]
<daker> sorry man i didn't find a solution to the OpenID stuff, it's doesn't work with php5
<daker> Whaoo ã
<evilvish> daker: nah.. nvm that.. i switched off OpenID , what is that error^ during submission?
<evilvish> wth is the second last comment! o.0
<evilvish> iainfarrell: second last comment from Lorenza Nieva seems like spam.. maybe you can delete it.. ;)
<evilvish> lol! 'second-degree' burn he mention as 'second-diploma' 'p
<iainfarrell> evilvish:  done :0
<iainfarrell> :)
<daker> evilvish, did you test the submission form ?
<evilvish> daker: doing it now.. it's uploading..
<daker> really i can't understand evilvish cchost was working right (this include the openid), and now most of the functionnalities are broken
<daker> evilvish, i think the php on the version has benn upgraded from 4 to 5 __i think__
<evilvish> daker: hm yeah.. (and cant we rollback?) doctormo mentioned something about that.. :(
<daker> argh :s
<daker> s/version/server
<daker> evilvish, reallt i have no idea
<evilvish> gah!! same error > "/srv/www/art.ubuntu-owl.org/htdocs/cchost_lib/cc-events.php"(222): Parameter 2 to CCEditorials::OnGetSysTags() expected to be a reference, value given
<evilvish> :(
<evilvish> daker: could you mention what is wrong to pleia2 and see if she can get it fixed for us?
<daker> evilvish, ok i'll try
<evilvish> daker: if she cant maybe we'd have to ask iain to have someone take a look at it.. or maybe we can move it to a different server which has php4
<daker> yes good idea
 * evilvish summons iain..
<phawk> here guys how do you get involved in ui design?
<evilvish> iainfarrell: hey.. so the problem is, the server where the site is hosted was recently updated from php4 to php5, and that has broken a lot of cchost functions. now we either need a new server(which has php4) to host the site or someone who can fix the issue.
<daker> exactly
<iainfarrell> daker evilvish who's maintaining this site?
<evilvish> iainfarrell: the site is hosted on pleia2's server
<daker> iainfarrell, and doctormo is the responsible A
<daker> AFAIK
<evilvish> iainfarrell: doctormo/daker have access to the lpbranch , but neither were able to fix it..
<iainfarrell> is there a way to back up the app, blitz it and restore
<iainfarrell> or can we restore from a backup?
<evilvish> iainfarrell: it all boils php5 now playing nice.. or pleia2 rolls back to php4(which i dont think is a possibility)
<evilvish> not*
<iainfarrell> why did we upgrade to 5?
<evilvish> iainfarrell: well.. maybe she needed it for some other site â¦ i dont know..  she is in california i guess so we need to wait till she is up
<iainfarrell> hmm
<iainfarrell> well we could just use Flickr?
<iainfarrell> have everything in one place
<iainfarrell> we can't really have a situation where people can't contribute
<iainfarrell> I'll speak to doctormo when he's up
<evilvish> iainfarrell: well.. its not an issue of not being able to submit.. we just need to look into this issue afaic..
<evilvish> iainfarrell: cool..
 * evilvish bbiab..
<thorwil> phawk: i'd suggest find a project you care about, look for things to improve ui-wise
<phawk> ok, im new to open source design stuff, where are the projects listed?
<thorwil> phawk: get into direct contact to the developers an suggest well thought-out improvements
<thorwil> phawk: you could look around in the ubuntu software center
<thorwil> then there's http://gnomefiles.org/ , http://freshmeat.net/ , http://www.ohloh.net/
<thorwil> evilvish: is there something like a needs-ui-design tag on launchpad?
<thorwil> phawk: oh, and have a look at http://openusability.org/
<phawk> but what about specifically contributing to the ui of ubuntu
<thorwil> phawk: think of that as the master class, including socio-political issues
<phawk> ok
<thorwil> phawk: in principal, the ayatana mailing list exists for that, but in practice, mots of the time it's just endless threads of discussion with no results
<thorwil> phawk: so besides reading up on the subject matter, if you havn't already, helping to improve a single, preferably simple application would be the best start
<evilvish> thorwil: there is a 'needs-design' tag
<evilvish> but very few bugs are tagged so ;p
<thorwil> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subs
<thorwil> criber=&field.tag=needs-design&field.tags_combinator=ANY&field.status_upstream-empty-marker=1&field.has_cve.used=&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.affects_me.used=&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_branches.used=&field.has_branches=on&field.has_no_branches.used=&field.has_no_branches=on
<thorwil> oops, sorry
<evilvish> fail!
<evilvish> ;p
<thorwil> 18 results
<evilvish> phawk: have you seen the Software Center design request?
<phawk> no i have not
<phawk> also do you guys all use gimp or are there photoshop users?
<evilvish> phawk: well, it's not specifically UI, check it out in the tasks page on the wiki
<thorwil> phawk: there are users of either. plus inkscape. quite  a number things are more convenient to do in vector graphics
<phawk> yeah i know what you mean
<phawk> does photoshop run on ubuntu
<phawk> ?
<phawk> through wine..
<thorwil> phawk: http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=17
<coz_> phawk,  I believe it depends on which version of  photoshop
<phawk> cs5
<coz_> phawk,   mm  not sure ...did you check with the people in #winehq  about this?
<thorwil> interview with alan kay about innovation: http://web.archive.org/web/20020613145206/http://cbi.cgey.com/journal/Issue8/Still_Waiting.html
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-20
<kwwii> good morning
<thorwil> morning!
<thorwil> hi ivanka. what happened with the survey?
<ivanka> thorwil: I got lots of responses and have just started analysing this week. This is my first week back and there have been some minor dramas but I am almost back on track!
<ivanka> thorwil: it also takes longer than I anticipated because the responses are so good and detailed
<thorwil> ivanka: well, that's good, then
<ivanka> thorwil: it's great, not just good :-)
<thorwil> the ubuntu-art logo will be back on the table, soon. i kinda wish that it didn't happen at all
<doctormo> thorwil: I agree :-) good morning
<evilvish> doctormo: hey..
<evilvish> doctormo: did you happen to catch yesterday's scrollback?
<evilvish> doctormo: submit to artowl is broken.. :(
<evilvish> thorwil: i nearly facepalmed and that alternate wallpaper mail yesterday..
<evilvish> and thought, even faceplaming is a waste of time ;p
<darkmatter> kinda like how I regularly facepalm at evilvish? ;)
<evilvish> darkmatter: but you do facepalm.. \o/  while i dint ;p
<darkmatter> lol
<darkmatter> evilvish: I'll try that one day. may help in reducing headaches. facepalming hurts
<doctormo> evilvish: Thanks for letting me know
<evilvish> doctormo: np.. when it is fixed could you let me know? or can you reply to the last comment when it is done?  http://design.canonical.com/2011/01/bright-light-and-beautiful/
<doctormo> evilvish: looks like it's not fixable, I'm not a php programmer so I don't know how to fix it.
<doctormo> Just reproduced it, definitly a weird php error. Do we know anyone who does php?
<evilvish> doctormo: ok np. or could you get me the error logs?  i can try to find someone else â¦
<doctormo> evilvish: Think of me more are to organiser of owl art, it's based on ccHost.
<doctormo> evilvish: Will grab logs now
<evilvish> thx..!
<thorwil> evilvish: heh, yeah, i wondered if and how to react to that and my mind stalled
<doctormo> Ah damn, I don't have access to the logs. Will prod pleia2
<thorwil> evilvish, doctormo: i though by now it was clear that ccHost doesn't like php 5, and that we have no one to fix that?
<evilvish> can we move the site to drupal?
<doctormo> evilvish: No, no more php sites, please
<evilvish> thorwil: one last person has offered to have a look at it.. if that fails as well... maybe wiki submissions ;p
<thorwil> pfft
<doctormo> Let's face it, we simply don't have to tools to accept art over the internet.
<evilvish> :D
<thorwil> let's require submissions via letter post!
<evilvish> heh.. we can just ask people to submit as attachments to a bug report in lp ;)
<doctormo> evilvish: Where is good vish, I miss him.
<evilvish> doctormo: vish is just tired of noob IRC users sending PMs and not waiting for replies :p
<doctormo> evilvish: Ah well, I guess evil is ok, as long as you're not diabolical.
<evilvish> haha!
<darkmatter> -31 C. anyone feel like swapping locations? :D
<thorwil> i'd shiver out of that location
<darkmatter> evilvish: just had a cute idea for min/unmin in unity (since the default animations are unnaturally dizzying with the launcher on the side). since the launcher is more of a drawer/shelf seeming approach, it should be a "open/close" "collapse/expand" type animation imho. with a "<-[ ]" type glyph to collapse and a "[ ]->' glyph (on running apps in the launcher thingy) to expand.
<darkmatter> maybe a little "flash" of light along the edge of the launcher tile on collapse as a visual cue
<darkmatter> evilvish: think I should file a "you make me dizzy" bug? ;P
<darkmatter> not sure how it would look on smaller windows, but would be nice and graceful on larger/maximized
<evilvish> darkmatter: you'd have better luck getting your ideas implemented in gnome ;)
<darkmatter> lol. I know
<darkmatter> meh. technically just need to pester the compiz devs for an option. minimize does _not_ look natural when executed horizontally
<doctormo> evilvish: I didn't think anyone, anywhere could get anything into gnome. Even if it made sense.
<evilvish> doctormo: exactly! why i said the above ;)
<doctormo> I met some of the gnome designers, they mean well, but my god have I never met more arrogant people. Well except for myself ;-)
<evilvish> doctormo: darkmatter has had some pleasant experience getting his ideas implemented/used
 * evilvish hides..
<darkmatter> :P
<darkmatter> evilvish: but I keep all the good ones to myself. why waste breath :P
<thorwil> doctormo: designers sometimes have to be stubborn and very confident to get anywhere, and what's the difference between that and arrogance, anyway? :)
<evilvish> thorwil: have you read robbiew's email sig?
<thorwil> evilvish: nope
<evilvish> thorwil: "Arrogance is thinking you are better than everyone else, while
<evilvish> Confidence is knowing no one else is better than you."
<thorwil> heh, yes, i did read that somewhere
<evilvish> thorwil: yea.. it's in all of his mails.. he mentions he came up with that.. but whoeve..  it's a nice one ;)
<doctormo> thorwil: It depends. The main problem with the gnome arrogance is that it's based within a limited social structure where very few people can act as peers or as users.
<doctormo> I believe it's only possible to be confident about ui design when you either have access to solid usability research, or have access to large numbers of _friends_ who are users.
<doctormo> Preferably both
 * darkmatter agrees with doctormo
<doctormo> The gnome team is very inwardly looking, they don't have the social support to make sure their ideas aren't warped by their echo chamber.
<doctormo> Anyone outside of gnome isn't worthy of being listened to, or accepting rationally critique from. In fact the main modus is argument and defence.
<evilvish> doctormo: any luck with the logs?
<doctormo> evilvish: Remind me which logos? (I do lots of those)
<evilvish> ohmy!
<evilvish> doctormo: the art-owl logs.. ;)
<doctormo> Oh logs! misread, sorry
<evilvish> ah, i missed the last "o" too :)
<doctormo> I've emailed Elizabeth, nothing more I can do but wait for her to give me access to them.
<evilvish> doctormo: right,cool.. just making sure before i forget.. otherwise i'd remind you tomorrow and it would take another day :)
<evilvish> timezones suck!
<thorwil> that echo chamber and defensive stance thing is going on i a lot of places
<evilvish> whoever had the brilliant idea of making the world round!
 * darkmatter reformats the world as a mobius strip
<darkmatter> evilvish: timezone that ^ :P
<evilvish> hmm.. wouldnt be too bad.. only a few parts of the world would have light and some would/might never get light... we'd have a much more diverse collection of species. ;)
 * evilvish steals darkmatter's planet idea for AVATAR2 ;p
<darkmatter> hehe
<doctormo> thorwil: I agree, I kinda like elementary for being a little more open in that regard.
<doctormo> evilvish: Those planets exist, they're still round, they're just tidily locked to their star. Usually red dwarfs.
<thorwil> doctormo: _mobius_strip_  planets?
<doctormo> Nope, mobius strips are 3D objects, you want a 2D concept. A square will do it.
<thorwil> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/backtestground-explained/
<coz_> thorwil,  I think I am confused about this backtestbground...  I did the python setup.py   ,,, if I have an image  how again do I run to-common-resolutions
<thorwil> coz_: in a terminal: to-common-resolutions filename
<coz_> mm that didnt work but let me try again
<thorwil> (tab completion really shines with those longish command names)
<thorwil> coz_: if it throws out an error about something not found, you have an old tarball
<coz_> to-common-resolutions  command not found
<coz_> oh
<coz_> mm I just reinstalled it let me find a newer version then
<thorwil> coz_: wait
<coz_> thorwil,  could be I am on natty
<thorwil> coz_: do "echo $PATH"
<thorwil> and look for "/usr/local/bin" in that list
<coz_> its there
<coz_> oh wait
<coz_> no its /usr/local/sbin
<coz_> nope wrong again
<coz_> there is a /usr/local/bin
<coz_> bad day I think :)
<thorwil> coz_: what does "which to-common-resolutions" say?
<coz_> nothing
<thorwil> coz_: you read and followed INSTALL?
<coz_> I believe so but let me do it again hold on
<coz_> setup script did not provide a directory for '' -- installing right in 'build/bdist.linux-i686/egg'
<thorwil> coz_: paste files.txt
<coz_> damn   ok didnt work but  let me come back .. family is needing me to do things...be back in a bit
<thorwil> unfortunately, i have to log out for today. sorry to coz_
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-21
<AbsintheSyringe> I'm packaging light-themes for Debian, as part of packaging Unity for Debian, I completely tailored themes for Debian, however have a small problem that's annoying the hell out of me
<AbsintheSyringe> somewhere in metacity I need to edit it so the edges don't look so square after I moved back the buttons to the right side
<AbsintheSyringe> http://foolcontrol.org/img/square%20edges.png
<AbsintheSyringe> can anyone help me out with this?
<ivanka> morning thorwil
<thorwil> good morning!
<thorwil> 0.o http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRmAkdU6H8UJSozac6ikCtNcR1GtnwkJkfxwiSPyk2EZKezMS1L&t=1
<kwwii> thorwil: sometimes I worry about you :p
<thorwil> kwwii: we are at least 2, then! :)
 * evilvish knows thorwil will hate it but had nothing more to add to that mail.. ;p
<andreasn> evilvish, new nick? :)
<evilvish> nah.. just being evil ;p
<andreasn> heh
<thorwil> evilvish: well, an opinion of which one should go would have been nice, but i'm happy that there is finally a reply at all ;)
<thorwil> http://edubuntu.org/2011/10/20/call-for-natty-wallpapers
<coz_> mm   maybe I should submit my water pictures  mmm  let me check requirements
<coz_> the problem I have  damn flicker  :)
<coz_> thorwil,  hey guys  I am trying the  backtestground again  with   sudo python setup.py install   or    sudo python setup.py install    --recor files.txt     both spit out the same  error...  error: can't copy '': doesn't exist or not a regular file
<coz_> thorwil,  what am I dong wrong :?
<coz_> all of the dependecies are installed
<thorwil> hmmm
<coz_> thorwil,  again this is ubuntu 11.04
<coz_> not sure if that matters actually
<thorwil> shouldn't
<coz_> thorwil,   are either of those commands correct?
<thorwil> python setup.py build
<thorwil> sudo python setup.py install --record files.txt
<coz_> right I did both
<thorwil> now if i had a line number of an actual filename ... '': is hard to make sense of :/
<coz_> mm
<coz_> warning: install_data: setup script did not provide a directory for '' -- installing right in 'build/bdist.linux-i686/egg'
<coz_> thorwil,  I believe its line 21  in  setup.py
<coz_> oh wait  also line 33
<coz_> no that's for man_files
<thorwil> coz_: well, you could try and remove line 14 to 37 and 68
<coz_> mm changed it to my home directoy and now get   warning: install_data: setup script did not provide a directory for '/home/cosimo321' -- installing right in 'build/bdist.linux-i686/egg'
<coz_> error: can't copy '/home/cosimo321': doesn't exist or not a regular file
<coz_> 68   it only goes up to 46
<coz_> nevermind
<thorwil> coz_: use http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/324554/
<coz_> ok let me try that
<coz_> mm
<coz_> Traceback (most recent call last):
<coz_>   File "setup.py", line 19, in <module>
<coz_>     long_description=read('docs/README'),
<coz_> NameError: name 'read' is not defined
<thorwil> gnah, i removed the # Utility function to read the README file
<coz_> :)
<thorwil> coz_: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/324557/
<coz_> that worked :)
<coz_> let me test this
<coz_> ooo worked well :)
<coz_> mm but no 2560x1024   general dual monitor size :(
<coz_> thorwil,   but this crops far too much for some images
<thorwil> coz_: after running to-common-resolutions once, edit ~/.config/backtestground_resolutions
<coz_> I think I can resize  these easily manually
<coz_> thorwil,  oh ok
<thorwil> coz_: i'm all ears if you find a test case where it crops too much
<coz_> thorwil,  ok  tested on an image  I already s howed   http://dl.dropbox.com/u/132551/Wallpaper/natty%20wallpaper/ubuntu_Pond1.png
<coz_> thorwil,  however it crops the upper part of the image  removing  the smalled scaled ripples in the image  making almost not clear on what the image actually is
<thorwil> coz_: it is supposed to crop balanced, same amount left/right or top/bottom
<coz_> thorwil,  ah ok... mm I will have to resize these images  manuall y then
<coz_> thorwil,  i like how this works though :)
<thorwil> coz_: good, ty :)
<thorwil> coz_: please try this: http://paste.pocoo.org/raw/324565/
<thorwil> coz_: from the same dir, with "python filename"
<coz_> thorwil,  will test in a bit ...have to get to doing a few things  ,,,sister is ill,, may have to take her to hospital :(   be back a bit later
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-22
<evilvish> doctormo: any word from pleia2 on the logs for art-owl?
<doctormo> Said she would get to it tonight.
<evilvish> cool!
<coz_> y
<doctormo> evilvish: We have logs!
<darkmatter> coz_: I'm doing something evil to window management. hehe
<coz_> darkmatter,  sorry about that    ...damn fingers
<darkmatter> np. starting work on my first compiz plugin. *crossing fingers*
<evilvish> doctormo: yay!
<doctormo> evilvish: pm me
<coz_> darkmatter,  very cool :)
<darkmatter> coz_: something simple but lacking. I think I'll call it stacker. the _basic_ functionality is in compiz already, but needs improving
<coz_> darkmatter,   well  talk with smspillaz  if you want.. I am sure he can help out with it...
<coz_> darkmatter,  just not at this moment  ,, I think it is near 6am tomorrow for him :)
<darkmatter> coz_: just an improvement to having focus but no raise on click. I want something a bit more functioning
<coz_> ah ok
<thorwil> hi doctormo. do you have an idea how to do what subprocess.check_output() does in python before 2.7?
<darkmatter> coz_: kinda like amiga had (if you've ever don teh amiga)
<doctormo> thorwil: Yes, I have ideas. What are you trying to do?
<coz_> darkmatter,  no I havent
<coz_> darkmatter,  you mean mouse over  focus?
<thorwil> doctormo: wrap gconftool-2 --set and --get commands in python
<darkmatter> coz_: moving windows by the titlebar didn't change focus/raise windows unless you _wanted_ it to
<coz_> darkmatter,  oh ok
<doctormo> thorwil: Why don't you just use the python based gconf lib?
<thorwil> doctormo: that is, i need the output o fthings like: gconftool-2 --get /desktop/gnome/background/picture_filename
<darkmatter> focus could be fixed regardless of action/position/etc. so you could cut/paste etc from active to inactive without having focus being stolen
<thorwil> doctormo: because i didn't think of that at all! thanks :}
<thorwil> *head-desk*
<darkmatter> coz_: like I said. basic functionality is already there, just needs enhancing
<coz_> darkmatter,  that sounds  nice actually
<doctormo> thorwil: So you know: gconf access is not available if you're running from a cron job or outside of the gnome session on a different tty
<darkmatter> coz_: it is. it's one of the things I wish had carried over back in the day. that's one of the things that made multitasking so much fun. windows respected you :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  cool... I hope you do t his... submit it... I would like to try it :)
<darkmatter> coz_: combine that with some of the more modern features and â¥
<coz_> damn fingers
<coz_> darkmatter,  ok  I dont want to know ...right now...how to do the "heart" thingy,, i would have a new toy :)
<darkmatter> hehe
<darkmatter> coz_: hold down control+shift+u <enter appropriate unicode love> ;p
<coz_> darkmatter,   ooo darn...you told  me  lol
<darkmatter> now I'm gonna sit back and watch you drive yourself mad playing with unicode combinations xD
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> 2665 is the heart
<coz_> darkmatter,   I will have to play with this,, so just hold down  shift-ctrl+u   and hit the numbers?
<darkmatter> well.. release the u after pressing (keep ctrl and shift down) it initiate the unicode. then type in the appropriate numerical identifier (charts on the unicode site)
<darkmatter> will*
<coz_> â¥
<coz_> ah :)
<coz_> damn  another toy :)
<darkmatter> lol
<evilvish> coz_: do you use xchat?
<coz_> evilvish,   I do yes
<evilvish> coz_: you can just set that as an autoreplace
<coz_> evilvish,  oh cool :)
<coz_> oh man.. I am going to be spending all day playing now
<evilvish> you can set a rule, when you type <3 , autoreplace with â¥
<coz_> evilvish,    you and darkmatter   are  surely evil... :)
<evilvish>  i have a for of those autoreplace like:   â¢  Â»
<evilvish> Â«
<coz_> cool
<evilvish> s/for/few
<evilvish> coz_: also, if you really want to waste time.. you can get a lot of symbols in "character map" ;)
<coz_> and see ,, I was content just typing since it has improved slight over the years...now  look what you guys have dont  â¥
<coz_> evilvish,  cool...yeah that part I knew  :)
<coz_> now if only I could get paid  waisting time :)
<darkmatter> lol
 * darkmatter makes coffee
<coz_> guys... I have to break here... grocery store and all ..again  at 14 degree farenheit  weather and snow and ice  :(
<coz_> be back in a bit
#ubuntu-artwork 2015-01-16
<tgier> hi
<tgier> looking  to create some wallpapers, what resolution should one take?
<tgier> for the base wp to create the others from i mean
<tgier> or how does this work?
#ubuntu-artwork 2018-01-20
<Donmel> Whats this place
