#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-29
<hajour> o and thanks for the answer dutchie 
<hajour> hai all
<charlie-tca> Pendulum, if you don't mind, you appear to be stuck with me for a while
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: I want you around.
<charlie-tca> Great! got to much to try and get done to go away
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: you're important for this project and that e-mail was not about you in particular. It was that the way things were happening weren't working and finding a better way
<Pendulum> and obviously something happened since alejandra has now e-mailed with a mock up for trying to fix the website design
<charlie-tca> Yeah, I read it again. I am really frustrated with the websites. It really gets to me when my eyes start fading again.
<charlie-tca> Maybe did a teeny bit of good, too.
<AlanBell> totally understandable
<Pendulum> I understand. I'm hoping that there's now a compromise that will work
<AlanBell> and I think we are moving to a better working relationship with the design team and web team
<AlanBell> partly as a result of kicking up a bit of a fuss
<Pendulum> yeah
<charlie-tca> Just seems a little(or a lot) wrong that the website team keeps saying the design team is responsible, but they won't be told anything is wrong... 
<AlanBell> it is, which is what happened on saturday
<charlie-tca> heh, then it is okay
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: one of the reasons I copied as many people as I did on that e-mail was because I wanted jono and the design team to be aware that the LD and website people were not being helpful
<Pendulum> or were being helpful in limited ways
<AlanBell> but now we have demanded their attention we have to concentrate on building that better working relationship
<Pendulum> yeah
<charlie-tca> Agreed. That's why I got to keep quiet on it
<charlie-tca> I'm all for AlanBell or phillw to take the thing
<Pendulum> *nods*
<UndiFineD> well aint that an easy excuse, someone else is responsible, i thought people should think for themselves ...
<charlie-tca> What? me letting go?
<UndiFineD> "the website team keeps saying the design team is responsible"
<charlie-tca> Oh, that. Yeah
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: yes, and now we understand what they actually meant by that
<AlanBell> I asked phillw to join the channel
<UndiFineD> hajour will be back online later, I had to re-install the eepc, this time fullblown ubuntu, which is eassier for config
<UndiFineD> me and phill get along well :)
<charlie-tca> Well, I kicked the ball as hard as I dared. 
<UndiFineD> hey phillw :)
<charlie-tca> Hello, phillw 
<phillw> appears as summonsed, I'm good like that :P
<Pendulum> hi phillw :)
<AlanBell> o/
<charlie-tca> We were discussing the website and design team stuff
<phillw> In response to the email, I was thinking of grabbing AlanBell tonight and asking if he wished to be 1st point of contact. We are both UK based
<UndiFineD> oh, me and hajour did a lot of work on personas together ... might want to check it out
<AlanBell> I am happy either way
<AlanBell> UndiFineD: awesome!
<phillw> hiyas UndiFineD, we'll have to stop meeting like this, people will talk :D
<charlie-tca> phillw, as long as it is not me
<phillw> hiyas charlie-tca and Pendulum
<UndiFineD> shht phillw 
 * AlanBell wonders off for food
<phillw> UndiFineD: that'd be really good, as the accessify forum is really interested in how ubuntu is driving forwards.
<phillw> I know I'm not that active on the mailing list, but I do follow avidly what is going on and have another convert to coding sites to AAA standards which is always good :)
<UndiFineD> we did some work in hajour her pages, based on personal experiances: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/accessibility
<Pendulum> I really should use the forums :-/
<UndiFineD> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/accesibility
<Pendulum> I just have only so many methods of communication that I can handle at once
<UndiFineD> missing an S i see
<Pendulum> phillw: I'm happy with either of you so the two of you can duke it out ;-) Just please copy me on related e-mails to the design team, etc. if you can?
<phillw> Pendulum: we will, myself and AlanBell already know eachother so it's hardly going to be a fight to the death :)
 * charlie-tca thinks that would be good. We need both people
<Pendulum> yeah
<UndiFineD> heh
<phillw> charlie-tca: we already liase across another project, or two. So you'd get two for the price of one :P
<Pendulum> phillw: btw, if you didn't know, I'm Penelope :)
<phillw> Pendulum: I guessed :P
<Pendulum> (I get confused between people often and have spent my day fighting on medical stuff so my brain isn't working anyway)
<charlie-tca> sorry, Pendulum. I know that one well, too
<phillw> I am always here to help in any way I can, I quietly (and some times loudly) champion accessibilty, it is something I very strongly believe in.
<phillw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw#Accessibilty
<charlie-tca> I might get a little loud, too, now and then.
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: you'll love this, my insurance is currently approving a week of PT at a time
<charlie-tca> you
<charlie-tca>  you're kidding! :-(
<Pendulum> nope
<Pendulum> they approved 3 visits initially
<Pendulum> so last tuesday I had to fill out another survey for them
<Pendulum> they've approved another 2 visits
<charlie-tca> Hard to believe. but then, mine approved two visits initially, then I had to reapply monthly
<Pendulum> so this thursday I'll fill out another one
<Pendulum> to make it worse, if I don't show improvement, they'll deny
<Pendulum> even after 3 visits
<Pendulum> (went through that with different PT over the summer)
<charlie-tca> yup, improvement is all that matters, isn't it?
<charlie-tca> doesn
<Pendulum> heh
<charlie-tca> doesn't occur to them the progress might be slow and take time to show
<Pendulum> I love that for my genetic condition I'm supposed to magically improve in 3 visits, one of which was an eval with no treatment
<Pendulum> so I tell them I'm improving whether I am or not
<charlie-tca> You have to. It's the only way to keep things going, sometimes.
<Pendulum> and working with the therapist to get stuff I can do at home or in any pool so that when insurance stops improving it's not a disaster
<Pendulum> *approving
<Pendulum> but I have an insurance where doctor's offices see it and cringe
<charlie-tca> I had a total of 6 months last time my legs went. It took about 4 years to get them fully working.
<Pendulum> from what I can tell it covers about the same as medicaid (possibly a little less) with much higher copays
<charlie-tca> That hurts, too
<Pendulum> yeah
<charlie-tca> I did try doing some of the stuff without filing the insurance claims. They charge me about twice what they charge the insurance
<Pendulum> I pay $50/visit for PT. which is admittedly a lot better than the $300/visit I'd probably be paying out of pocket
<UndiFineD> what is PT ?
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: physiotherapy
<UndiFineD> oh
<UndiFineD> :)
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: what really gets me is that the insurance companies make deals with providers. So I'd get charge out of pocket about $300, I pay a copay of $50, and then it turns out the deal my insurance company has made means they only pay $30
<UndiFineD> do you have your a chance your health will improve Pendulum / charlie-tca 
<UndiFineD> ?
<charlie-tca> I know, Pendulum. It is really frustrating. 
<charlie-tca> And then the insurance wants to know why you used it...
<charlie-tca> UndiFineD, not here. Mine improved as much as it will. It is slowly going downhill now
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: not hugely. I have a rare genetic condition called Ehlers Danlos Syndrome and it's a matter of trying to manage symptoms, but it probably will get worse ;)
<UndiFineD> that aint good, sorry to hear
<charlie-tca> you do the best you can while you can
<Pendulum> tbh, the only things I really care about improving are pain and fatigue levels
<charlie-tca> Pendulum, Have you been able to try modafinal for fatigue?
<UndiFineD> pain and fatique are the worst indeed
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: no. because no one is doing a good job of managing my meds right now
<charlie-tca> It is probably the best drug out there for it. It does take monthly authorizations from the insurance company, though.
<Pendulum> I'm not sure my insurance covers it at all, tbh
<charlie-tca> I can make it through a normal day with 100mg a day, but it is still about $3 a pill, too
<charlie-tca> as for the rest, the VA says, "what do you think will help?" and prescribes whatever I tell them :-(
<Pendulum> heh
<charlie-tca> I just don't know the right drugs and doses to even try
<Pendulum> I've just had to fight to get any medication
<Pendulum> since I spent so long undiagnosed
<Pendulum> that the only doctor willing to treat my pain was my psychiatrist
<UndiFineD> insurance deciding whether your allowed to get medicine ? that is crazy, it means one day they can say "just die already"
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: the US healthcare system shouldn't have "care" in the name. and it's very messed up
<charlie-tca> yup
<Pendulum> so I'm now trying the pain clinic route, but we'll see
<charlie-tca> My sister is doing that, too. Trigeminal Neuralgia for 10 years
<Pendulum> unfortunately I maxed out on non-narcotics when I was about 18
<Pendulum> and no one likes putting someone my age on narcotics
<charlie-tca> heh, they don't like putting someone my age on them. We have to push for it
<charlie-tca> addictive, they said. 
<charlie-tca> my answer: takes the pain lower? addictive is better than not at all
<charlie-tca> but, then you have to keep increasing the dose to maintain the effectiveness
<maco> Pendulum: one of my cousins has the narcotics fight in hospital ERs regularly
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: medical marijuana is my answer to how they should solve that problem. doesn't generally end up with the same levels of tolerance as narcotics do
<charlie-tca> This is true too. Doesn't calif. have that now?
<Pendulum> a bunch of states do
<Pendulum> CA has for a while
<Pendulum> sadly my state doesn't :(
<charlie-tca> Oregon has it, Idaho does not
<Pendulum> I'm actually on marinol, which works better for me than a narcotic but not as well as actual marijuana, but we never managed to actually get dosage that was perfect with it because we were worried about messing too much
<UndiFineD> tried medicinal weed ?
<charlie-tca> UndiFineD, not legal in many of the states here
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: in the Netherlands yes, but not availible everywhere here (it's what we were just discussing)
<UndiFineD> sometimes pot works better than morfine
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: not the only reason I love Amsterdam, but I have to say I'm in better shape there than I am anywhere else these days ;-)
<UndiFineD> move to another state / country perhaps ?
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: if I could, I would
<UndiFineD> hajour:my eepc crashed so can t come on my own chat.
<UndiFineD> hajour:not my falt this time
<Pendulum> UndiFineD: say hi to hajour for me :)
<charlie-tca> Well, I better go try to natty again
<UndiFineD> hajour: pendulum in 2008 i had a acute hernia.they have operate 3 days later.they have give me morfine a lot.but i needed more and more.my neighbour hath ms.she adviced me weet for the pain.i needed not mutch to ease my muscles 
<UndiFineD> hajour:they hat say i not was able to walk again.
<UndiFineD> hajour:just proved my body is weird i think. because in about 10 months i walked again with no help
<UndiFineD> hajour:but i think that the boss from your haeltcare must exsperiance the pain you have.lookwhat he have to say after that day
<UndiFineD> hajour: Pendulum about the accessibility program
<UndiFineD> hajour: What you think of the sugestions i have made?
<UndiFineD> hajour: UndiFineD  have help with the technical words and spelling
<UndiFineD> good night charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> good night, UndiFineD 
<UndiFineD> hajour: goodnight charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> good night, hajour
<UndiFineD> LOL hajour was mistaken by the word "natty"
<UndiFineD> I explain
<UndiFineD> hajour: thought you was going to sleep charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> oh
<charlie-tca> Sorry. I just have to try and fix Natty Narwhal
<UndiFineD> hajour: sorry
<charlie-tca> I broke it in three systems at the same time
<UndiFineD> clusterssh ?
<charlie-tca> no, three different installs, one on a p4 2.8GHz. One on VirtualBox and one on a amd64
<charlie-tca> and three different problems, too. I am good!
<UndiFineD> bug triaging :)
<UndiFineD> I should do some testing on natty myself soon too
<charlie-tca> It isn't really working yet
<UndiFineD> i use vm
<UndiFineD> virtualbox
<charlie-tca> yeah, me too. but with unity and compiz, VBox won't work for Ubuntu images
<Pendulum> also, VM's don't generally do 3-D accelleration which means you can't test Unity on them
<UndiFineD> my system does not do 3d at all
<Pendulum> *nods*
<charlie-tca> I bought an ATI video card so I can test natty
<UndiFineD> compiz does work, for a bit, but the dual gpu setup is giving poor performance
<UndiFineD> onboard bad ati does the rendering for an offboard good ati gpu
<UndiFineD> onboard does not get turned off due to a hardware bug
<UndiFineD> great to see duanedesign 's cli companion nearing release: helps for memory issues
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-11-30
<hajour> hai i am back again
<hajour> hai pendulum
<hajour> my pc is working again
<Pendulum> hi hajour :)
<Pendulum> I'm actually only online checking e-mail as I'm migrainey 
 * maco hands Pendulum a cup of tea
<UndiFineD> warning you'll get migrains from spam
<hajour> sorry to hear Pendulum .hope it sal be gone sone.
<hajour> my subpage from wiki  with poems is ready now
<hajour> 2 are in dutch.translation is standing next to the poem.1was english already
<hajour> hai MichelleQ 
<MichelleQ1> Hi
<hajour> hai charlie-tca 
<hajour> hi 
<charlie-tca> Hello, hajour 
<charlie-tca> I seem to have blinked again
<hajour> UndiFineD, have made a pcp key for me
<charlie-tca> meaning my internet is doing things wrong
<charlie-tca> hajour, great! Glad you got it
<hajour> a ok
<hajour> i have signed in at the mailing list from accessibilityteam and forum.
<charlie-tca> Good. I stay away from the forum, myself. 
<hajour> and ubuntu beginners 
<hajour> :)
<hajour> my introduction mail to the forum is go wrong.google hat translate it wrong.:(
<hajour> now my mail looks stupid
<charlie-tca> That can be a problem sometimes. Not to worry, most of us know translations are not always good
<hajour> i wanted to be good.
<hajour> the mail i mean
<charlie-tca> I know, but that is not always possible.
<hajour> UndiFineD, hat not time that moment so i hat tryed to do it myself.
<MichelleQ1> hajour: don't worry about it.  :-)  
<charlie-tca> You are doing fine. 
<hajour> is the mail also a introduction in the forum from accessibility?
<hajour> i mean is it come on the forum site?
<hajour> i just dont want to be called stupid again.
<hajour> o sorry dont want to be annoying
<hajour> have a nice evening all bye
<charlie-tca> hajour, to the best of my knowledge, the email to the mailing list does not go to the forums too. I think you do the forums through the browser only.
<hajour> ok thanks charlie-tca 
<hajour> i have finish my other subpage on my wiki profile
<hajour> hai Pendulum 
<hajour> hope you feeling better 
<hajour> mmm i was wondering .is it the meaning that the ubuntu forums,mail have to be accessible for people with handicap?
<hajour> because i had never succeeded without UndiFineD 
<hajour> i have read the page 5 times.still not remember all.
<charlie-tca> mail should be, but it depends on the email client you use. Forums, I don't really know how accessible they are at this time.
<hajour> now i have a small monitor.but if have understand good most people got a 15 ore 17 inch monitor?
<charlie-tca> Mine are all desktop systems, so I run three monitors, one on each test system.  17, 19, and 22 inch
<hajour> also a part of the  people have a laptop .there also not realy big i think
<charlie-tca> meebey, too
<charlie-tca> well, that should be : me, too. 
<hajour> i mean.if you have 1 for work you dont want to have a heavy laptop i think
<hajour> sec. i go trye something out.
<hajour> mm dos not work
<hajour> have trye ctrl + to make the lines bigger
<hajour> but it cant be done 
<hajour> oke i think i go make a exsample on a subpage with lines  i think.ore is that a bad idea?
<charlie-tca> Ctrl + won't work? Will    View -> Zoom -> Zoom out work ?
<hajour> i sal trye sec.
<hajour> where view stand?
<hajour> mm before my pc was crashed my spelingcontrol was on english.now it is on dutch.how can i get back spellingcontrol in chat in englishs?
<hajour> UndiFineD,  is sleeping now.he hat not sleep last night.
<hajour> i sal ask tomorrow to UndiFineD 
<hajour> hai JanC 
<hajour> hai MichelleQ 
<hajour> have to relog.brb
<hajour> back again.
<hajour> needed to relog for instaled colors
<hajour> MichelleQ, just to be sure.have i doing something wrong?
<AlanBell> evening all
<hajour> hai AlanBell 
<AlanBell> hi hajour 
<MichelleQ1> hajour: what do you mean wrong?
<maco> hajour: the way you got it on english was to run xchat as:   LANG=en xchat
<hajour> you was left suddenly.
<MichelleQ1> oh, no, you'll get used to my coming and going - I'm also a stay-at-home-mom and do a lot of running around
<hajour> pff i just a little bit emo i think.i just need to be how you call it stronger.and less sensitive i think
<MichelleQ1> No worries.  I'll tell you honestly if you do something to upset me, and that's pretty difficult to do.
<hajour> I was a bit upset.yesterday someone called me stupid in chat.not this one a other.
<hajour> chat from ubuntu
<hajour> i trye to learn so fast i can realy
<MichelleQ1> don't worry too much.  You're doing just fine.  
<hajour> :)
<hajour> ok
<hajour> maco, where can i find ?LANG
<maco> you just type it on the command line
<hajour> a ok
<hajour> LANG=en xchat
<maco> you can also "gksudo gedit /usr/share/applications/xchat.desktop" (i think...) and change the Exec= line to say that if you want the menu one to automatically do it
<hajour> i have done it .stil on dutch
<maco> not in the xchat window. open a terminal and run xchat from it that way.   you have aspell-en installed right? i think you installed it yesterday
<hajour> no someone else have done that 
<maco> oh, i thought JanC had you install it yesterday
<hajour> i dont remember wo that have done.i cant reed back on chat.history is gone.yesterday my pc was crashed.Undifined have reinstald
<JanC> editing that file isn't a good idea (it will be overwritten when there is a package upgrade), better copy it to ~/.local/share/applications/ and edit the copy
<JanC> or as an alternative, a simple script can be used for this
<maco> i dont think i knew about that dir
<hajour> cant copy in here
<JanC> maco: that's where alacarte also puts its overrides
<maco> ah
<JanC> it's an fd.o standard location I suppose
<JanC> I'm not sure you can use something like LANG=en in .desktop files though
<hajour> i have sighned in by mailinglist,forum from accessibility.and in beginnersgroup mail.
<hajour> tomorrow undifined helps me with the rest.he hat no sleep last night.he wanted first to fix my pc for me
<hajour> so now he was real tired
<hajour> he is sleeping now
<hajour> o mm if i have understand good.there is also for young people?
<hajour> my daughter have ask that
<mhall119> there is an ubuntu-youth group
<hajour> ok.also for dutch?she is afraid her english is not good enough.she got dislectie to
<mhall119> that I don't know, I think the ubuntu-youth is primarily english
<mhall119> the regular dutch team may be friendly enough to welcome younger members though
<hajour> mm i sal look to it.she is good in pdrwaning and painting in real life
<hajour> pff draw dont no to say
<hajour> how i mean
<hajour> tomorrow i go find out how inkscape works
<hajour> hai Pendulum 
<hajour> it sal be a challenge.normally i work just with paper and pencil enz.
<maco> itll take more than a day...
<mhall119> yeah, I still don't know my way around inkscape
<hajour> i now i dont mind.i am just to that everything takes time
<hajour> i just go treu till i can do it
<hajour> to bad i got no scanner
<hajour> i have some idea s for ubuntu
<hajour> i go trye to work that out
<hajour> pitty ubuntu have nothing on my skill  to make poems.
<hajour> XD i now it sounds silly that someone like me makes poems because of my dislectie
<JanC> you can always read them  âº
<JanC> or speak them
<hajour> i make them
<JanC> (reading might be difficult :p )
<hajour> just watch my sub page in my profile
<JanC> I mean, you can always say them aloud and record that, instead of writing them down
<hajour> till now i have writhe them.and undifined checks on spelling.also i look on google how to writhe
<hajour> copie past:))
<hajour> its often to noisy here to record.4 kids
<hajour> charlie-tca, do you now ?what is wrong with the chat
<charlie-tca> Sorry, I don't know. sometimes the network connections are affected by weather or too many users, though.
<hajour> o and i discoverd my subpage with poems is gone
<charlie-tca> hajour, what was the page?
<hajour> i found it by work ore something i only dont now how to come there treu my page.but this is the page. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/poems
<charlie-tca> Still there
<charlie-tca> I can make it go through your page, if you want
<hajour> if you will you make my very happy
<hajour> it was the meany it was a sub page
<charlie-tca> How's that?
<hajour> sec i go look :)
<hajour> very nice.you now i have make them myself.
<charlie-tca> Happy to help
<hajour> i have translate 2.the dutch version stands next to the translation
<hajour> 1 was already english
<hajour> UndiFineD,  have done spelling correction for me
<hajour> the english poem fly like a bird is 1 of my first poems i ever made
<hajour> more then 2 years ago
<charlie-tca> Did you write all three yourself?
<hajour> yes
<hajour> i got 165 poems written
<charlie-tca> WOW!
<hajour> and it is not really bad thought
<hajour> you now first time my social worker have say i have to try to wright.i laugd .i mean me,dislectie,and i have to wright
<charlie-tca> heh
<charlie-tca> but it worked, didn't it
<hajour> you understand i first thought she was joking
<hajour> yes
<hajour> in this .i was able? dont now it is the right word.to get of my emotions that way
<charlie-tca> You wrote that fine. 
<hajour> but stil i am depending on others about the spelling
<charlie-tca> That's okay. At least you are trying
<hajour> a dislection program here cost 1295 euro
<hajour> i cant pay that
<charlie-tca> I understand 
<hajour> yes it s stays by trying soo you have see
<hajour> :)
<hajour> i just wonder what i have about that skill.
<AlanBell> someone called DanteAshton might join in a bit, he is a wheelchair user in the UK and interested in helping on the persona project
 * AlanBell is off to bed
<hajour> sleep well AlanBell 
<hajour> hai DanteAshton 
<AlanBell> o/ DanteAshton
<DanteAshton> Helloooo
<DanteAshton> Just wondering if I can be of any use...
<AlanBell> I am done for the day, but ask any questions, and have a look at the existing persona documents
<hajour> i dont no mutch DanteAshton  i just join in last fryday
<AlanBell> the basic idea of the project is to communicate to developers about accessibility in a more engaging way than before
<DanteAshton> Oh goody, I have a knack for going between high level devs and silly end-users...
<AlanBell> excellent
<DanteAshton> Thank you, Alan :)
<AlanBell> the personas should all be realistic, but slightly awesome people in some way
<hajour> but i have put some sugestions where i had problems with and some solutions to.
<AlanBell> we want people to think, yeah, I could be friends with that person
<charlie-tca> hello, DanteAshton 
<AlanBell> night all
<DanteAshton> Hello, Charlie.
<hajour> night AlanBell 
<hajour> this is my page anyway DanteAshton  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour
<DanteAshton> Right, what do I do to get started?
<DanteAshton> and night AlanBell, thanks again :)
<hajour> and this are the sugestions on my sub page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/accesibility
<hajour> they hat told me to make a wiki.ubuntu page
<charlie-tca> here is the wiki page we started with: 
<charlie-tca> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Personas
<hajour> i have get help to with it.
<hajour> charlie-tca, i wish i good help with it but i needed UndiFineD  to to help with the reading and spelling
<charlie-tca> I know. but we have to point DanteAshton at it now, too
<hajour> yes.
<charlie-tca> DanteAshton, it is best to use a sub-page like hajour did
<DanteAshton> Bloody hell...UndiFineD, what pies DONT you deal in?
<hajour> ?
<DanteAshton> You'll have to excuse me, people, I'm trying to calm down my hysterical team-mates
<DanteAshton> That man is everywhere...
<hajour> lol
<hajour> he is my boyfriend
<charlie-tca> Okay. A lot of us are all over the place
<DanteAshton> Ahhhh...congrats
<DanteAshton> No, the Ubuntu Advert Team
<hajour> rofl
<hajour> i now if he is on chat he has 30 chats open ad the same time XD
<DanteAshton> That explains why he is always never around when I need him :P
<hajour> he is sleeping now because he slept not last night
<hajour> he wanted first to reinstalate my pc
<hajour> but after 36 hours no sleep he was realy tired
<hajour> its night now here
<DanteAshton> Same here, I'm only an hour behind
<hajour> :) uk i think
<DanteAshton> Right...well...to introduce myself, I'm Dante, a technical writer and graphics artist...if anyone needs a hand with either of those things, do contact me :)
<DanteAshton> and your right, hajour
<hajour> o great graphics
<hajour> sorry for my bad writhing. i got dislectie.i every time guess ore go to google to see how to writhe
<hajour> hai MichelleQ 
<DanteAshton> Dont worry, hajour, I've had a lot of experience dealing with dyslexia, so I can understand you :)
<charlie-tca> yes!
<hajour> i found my poems back again
<charlie-tca> We have a whole wiki we are trying to staighten out. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
<hajour> charlie-tca,  have helped to attached on my wiki page
<charlie-tca> I will be contacting you for help
<hajour> i have good idea s for the persona s charlie-tca  but my writhing is terrible
<hajour> i have helped UndiFineD  also with daniela
<charlie-tca> I know you do. Maybe DanteAshton can help you, too
<DanteAshton> I'd be happy to :)
<hajour> its just that spelling :(
<hajour> nice
<DanteAshton> ahhhh poo....sadly, hajour, I'm required back in the real world now, but I'll help soon!
<DanteAshton> Toodles everyone!
<hajour> if he can do the spelling correction. i sal do gtommorrow the persona s
<charlie-tca> Great! you have some really good ideas, so things will start rolling now.
<hajour> if my pc was not crashed i hat writhe to day already
<`marianne`> hiya
<hajour> cant help it to see the sense of humor from it i write .with my dislectie
<hajour> hiya marianne
<charlie-tca> Hello, `marianne` 
<charlie-tca> hajour, you will do fine
<hajour> charlie-tca,  i stil have to use on it that people think i got idea s. think it needs time
<hajour> good idea s i mean
<charlie-tca> This it correct. Sometimes it does come as a surprise, doesn't it?
<hajour> yes i am not use to that
<hajour> o and charlie-tca  i dont now when someone is new ore not
<hajour> hai Cheri703 
<Cheri703> hi hajour
<hajour> where i can find the page to see who is working on which part of the accessibility program
<charlie-tca> hajour, you will get where you know new and old people. Usually, we get told, just like with Dante today
<charlie-tca> Hello, Cheri703 
<Cheri703> hey charlie-tca 
<hajour> ok charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> how goes things today?
<charlie-tca> Cheri703, how goes things today?
<Cheri703> alright, just killing time while husband is in a meeting
<hajour> oops almost forgot to take my medicin brb
<charlie-tca> great!
<Cheri703> times like this I love having a netbook :)
<hajour> back again
<hajour> netbook?
<Cheri703> small laptop without a cd drive
<hajour> a ok
<hajour> eeepc you mean?
<hajour> something like that?
<Cheri703> yes, mine is from zareason, it came with ubuntu on it
<Cheri703> but same idea
<hajour> i got eeepc.it is Undifined s old work laptop.my old pc was deceased :) after 7 years hard work
<charlie-tca> hajour, I think the wiki page you want does not exist
<hajour> ?
<hajour> how can that
<charlie-tca> who is working on which part
<hajour> a ok
<charlie-tca> I don't think it is written down, since we all just work where needed
<hajour> mm
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-01
<charlie-tca> Pendulum and AlanBell are personas, myself, Pendulum are wiki, TheMuso is development, and the then it gets hard to decide
<hajour> for new people it might be useful
<charlie-tca> true
<hajour> charlie-tca,  can we make self also personas?
<charlie-tca> We send the new people to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/GettingInvolved
<charlie-tca> hajour, you need to talk with Pendulum and AlanBell about it. They aren't here tonight, though. It is late for them
<hajour> yes i now.just was wondering ore that was possible
<charlie-tca> I don't really know. I try to stay away from personas, since I also am the Xubuntu Project Leader
<charlie-tca> I do testing, bug triage, and wiki writing, and then I do xubuntu too
<hajour> i dont now what a Xubuntu project leader does
<hajour> a ok
<charlie-tca> Xubuntu is a distribution based on Ubuntu
<charlie-tca> http://xubuntu.org
<hajour> ok charlie-tca :) lots of work 
<charlie-tca> I stay busy, yes
<hajour> i just enjoying 2 weeks no helpers in my home
<hajour> i got people almost everyday here ore i be in hospital for myself ore my children
<hajour> but i do also nice things.
<charlie-tca> It is nice to have no help once in a while. As long as help is there when you do need it.
<hajour> i bake bread and make candy.pindabutter enz enz.i cut hair from my childeren.i make makeup for my daughters.because of there alergie
<charlie-tca> That is a lot
<hajour> and cloths if i got time
<hajour> long ttime ago that i good paint
<charlie-tca> You don't do paint no more/
<charlie-tca> ?
<hajour> almost not.my daughters need mutch help to learn things
<charlie-tca> Yes, I would think so. But they have you to help them!
<Cheri703> I'm planning what holiday treats to make
<Cheri703> I am leaning toward making 2 different types of cookies to give out
<hajour> example my oldest daughter have take 7 years to learn swimming with special help
<hajour> :)) i make a lot of different things
<hajour> italian,greek,french,dutch,spanish food
<charlie-tca> I am leaning towards hoping someone gives me homemade cookies
<hajour> iff i good i would give you.XD its only not possible online
<charlie-tca> !cookie
<ubot2> Wow! You're such a great helper, you deserve a cookie!
<Cheri703> charlie-tca: where are you located?
<charlie-tca> Idaho, USA
<Cheri703> ah, I'm in ohio
 * Cheri703 might see about the logistics of shipping cookies ;)
<Cheri703> are you allergic to any foods?
<charlie-tca> nope
<charlie-tca> but it is okay. I have neighbors and friends here. 
<Cheri703> where in idaho? my brother was there for 2 years
<hajour> XD here catch .just have thrown a cookie to you charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> Idaho Falls, eastern edge
<Cheri703> ah, ok
<Cheri703> my brother was in the boise area
<charlie-tca> I moved from Boise to here in July
<Cheri703> ah, ok
<hajour> i have to make all kind off food because i am alergic from msg (monosodiumgludomaat)
<Cheri703> I think I'd be more motivated to cook for myself if I had food allergies...it's too easy to just buy stuff
<hajour> and it is in almost everything
<charlie-tca> Agreed. Much easier
<hajour> even in milk
<hajour> not only me also 3 of my daughters are alergic for msg
<charlie-tca> hajour, you have msg in milk there?
<hajour> yes
<charlie-tca> ouch
<hajour> they put it in for to make longer good
<Cheri703> hajour: I drink goat milk usually. right now I'm having to buy it, but as soon as one of the goats has its baby, I can get it again from some people I know. very fresh goat milk = wonderful
<charlie-tca> They are not allowed to do that here, as far as I know
<hajour> yes in europe it is approved E nummer
<hajour> in netherland it is .:(
<hajour> its in milk bakingbutter .bread,all kind of sauces,eten in blik,they even spray it out on meat for on sandwich
<hajour> eten in blik=cannes food
<hajour> wrong words copie sorry
<hajour> and in a lot more product
<hajour> to mutch to type here
<charlie-tca> Korea was like that, too
<hajour> they are now required to put it on the label on the product.but often they put on the label maisflower ore something else.
<hajour> 2 weeks ago that was happend .i was very sick because i eat msg
<hajour> korea not anymore?
<hajour> Cheri703, here it is dificult to get goatmilk.even lot of anymals get food with msg in it here.
<Cheri703> that's crazy
<charlie-tca> I guess clear labels are a problem everywhere
<hajour> yes i find that to
<hajour> i hope that 1 day ther sal not anymore in food
<hajour> no msg i mean
<Cheri703> hajour: do you live in a city? or out in the country?
<hajour> village but farmers have rule s they are not allowed officel to sell from there farm
<hajour> all go s straight to the fabrics
<Cheri703> well, I was going to say that maybe you guys could get an animal? goat or chickens? maybe have a garden?
<hajour> i have not a great garden.but yes next year we go trye to make a garden.but we need earth,also cost money.
<Cheri703> here you can get earth from people who are changing their own yards, often for free
<hajour> here not
<Cheri703> :(
<hajour> we are in wellfare you call it?
<Cheri703> yes
<Cheri703> my husband receives money because he is unemployed
<hajour> Undifined lost his job 6-3-2010
<hajour> i cant work only in adjusted job.but there is a waiting list fore that from 4 till 7 years
<Cheri703> :(
<hajour> i heard that 1 month ago.i was very disapointed
<hajour> i realy want to work.its not only the money.but it gives a good feeling to have job
<hajour> work
<Cheri703> yeah, I have a job, and I like the work, but the boss is...horrible
<hajour> i am 18 years home now.its my dream to get work
<Cheri703> could you sell some of those things you make?
<hajour> i have not enough time with the kids to make enough.iff you make money.you have to give it back to the goverment again
<hajour> people have say to me to trye to poetry.but i am not sure if it is good enough.
<Cheri703> ah, understandable
<Cheri703> here if you make under a certain amount from it, you don't have to pay taxes on it
<hajour> here you may give it right away to the goverment
<Cheri703> :(
<hajour> to give out a poetry i mean
<Cheri703> well, if you do try poetry, you could post it online
<hajour> i have 165 poems
<hajour> i have written it in 2 years
<Cheri703> nice
<hajour> but it need to look spelling control
<charlie-tca> Cheri703, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/poems
<hajour> i was succeed for the entrance exam for Graphic lyceum.2000 people thit exam 30 people where allowed.but i failed.the school was to big for me.i did not now yet that i had add then.
<Cheri703> :(
<hajour> i dont now witch level a school like that is called in your country
<hajour> google dont now it either.XD google is not so mutch smarter then me .Xd
<hajour> but  now i have this to work on. and i enjoy it a lot
<Cheri703> :(
<Cheri703> bah
<Cheri703> it is always fun to find a new project! I just have trouble finishing the one before it :/
<Cheri703> that was what I meant to type
<Cheri703> I accidentally hit the up arrow and got the :(
<hajour> first time i feel like i realy doing something good
<hajour> to help i mean
<hajour> np :)
<Cheri703> I really enjoy helping people too. just last week I helped a guy who was trying to get ubuntu to do something, I was able to spend a bit of time and get it to do what he wanted, he was very excited, I like that :)
<hajour> yes
<hajour> and i hope we sal make a difference to a lot off people with this program
<Cheri703> definitely
<hajour> you now 1 off the sugestions already is going to put in 1 off the  program from ubuntu
<hajour> UndiFineD,  nows wich one
<hajour> i forgot the name from it
<Cheri703> very cool!
<hajour> yes i find that to.
<hajour> so you see it slowly comes
<hajour> it was 1 off the memory sugestions
<Cheri703> nice
<hajour> mmm i miss my english spellingcontrol here in chat
<Cheri703> you're doing very well tonight!
<hajour> after my pc was crashed it was again in dutch
<hajour> mutch google
<hajour> every time switch
<Cheri703> did UndiFineD  show you the built in ubuntu dictionary?
<Cheri703> I showed him that it has a dutch to english setting
<Cheri703> might save the googling a bit
<hajour> and i look every time in chat by your lines how to wright Xd
<Cheri703> :)
<hajour> UndiFineD,  was tired i hat 36 hours no sleep.he wanted first to fix my pc
<Cheri703> ah
<hajour> i nows how mutch it means to me
<Cheri703> hajour, I think you mean "he" not, "I"
<hajour> it have no use to say then to him he have to sleep
<hajour> yes
<Cheri703> (not trying to be rude, just trying to help :) )
<hajour> yes i now :))
<Cheri703> ok, just wanted to make sure :)
<hajour> its ok. no worry
<hajour> i just was early in day a little emotional.because in 1 off the ubuntu chats someone called me stupid.just have handle it off with a joke.but ..
<Cheri703> :( yeah, I hate that
<hajour> it give s a bad feeling
<Cheri703> many of the rooms are filled with jerks (rude people), which is sad because it's contrary (not following) the whole point of ubuntu
<Cheri703> is it helpful if I give a simpler version of a word after it? like above? I don't know if that helps at all
<hajour> yes thanks
<charlie-tca> hajour, You can report that when it happens to #ubuntu-ops
<Cheri703> ok, I thought it might be helpful, but if you have to look up both, then it's probably not!
<charlie-tca> But not too late after it happens
<hajour> you now i have no low ig.but i feel offten like i am stupid.
<hajour> i dont no annymore witch chat and who it was charlie-tca .chat history is gone to after the crash
<Cheri703> well, I have to head out. I'll be back online in a few hours. Have a good night. nice talking to you charlie-tca and hajour :)
<charlie-tca> Yes, unfortunately. It needs to be reported right away
<charlie-tca> good night, Cheri703 
<Cheri703> (head out = leave) :)
<charlie-tca> or, rather, good-bye
<hajour> sleep well Cheri703  and thanks for the nice talking
<hajour> charlie-tca, i mostly not give someone to report.i am to soft i think
<charlie-tca> I know. Most of us are like that.
<charlie-tca> We get frustrated, but do not speak up like we should. 
<hajour> yes.
<hajour> UndiFineD, just wake up
<charlie-tca> I remember after it is too late, most of the time
<hajour> yes me to.also we have a nice team here i find
<hajour> with nice people
<hajour> realy i find it very nice here
<hajour> are you tired charlie-tca ?
<hajour> charlie-tca, just remember.we can look in the mirror and watch with no shame
<charlie-tca> that's right
<charlie-tca> sorry.
<charlie-tca> Yes, I am very tired tonight
<charlie-tca> hajour, you can tell I get tired when I start going to long without answering
<hajour> just already noticed that charlie-tca 
<hajour> mayby better to sleep?
<charlie-tca> I am losing words too, now.
<charlie-tca> No, just need to relax, I guess
<hajour> :) dont now how late it is there in your country
<charlie-tca> It is only 7:00 PM
<hajour> here it is 3.15 hours night
<hajour> going to take my last sigaret.and then going to have some sleep
<charlie-tca> That is a good idea. It has been very nice talking with you.
<hajour> i find it also nice talking to you charlie-tca 
<hajour> i just was thinking about a program for people wo cant talk and type.mind control program.
<UndiFineD> emotiv control of dasher would be great
<hajour> going to sleep .good night all
<TheMuso> Meego is doomed, or at least according to this article: http://www.techeye.net/software/nokias-meego-is-doomed
<cprofitt> charlie-tca: 
<cprofitt> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/683465
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 683465 in launchpad "Signing the CoC is a pain (affects: 1) (heat: 8)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<cprofitt> would love your input on that charlie-tca 
<Cheri703> I agree that it's difficult...I had quite a few issues, even following a tutorial :/
<Cheri703> and I'm not dyslexic and I'm reasonably able to figure out stuff on the computer
<cprofitt> Cheri703: if you want mark that it affects you too
<cprofitt> not sure what can be technically done, but it should be considered
<cprofitt> I gotta log and get some sleep, but wanted to let people know that the issue had been reported
<Cheri703> at the very least, super simplify the process. and the tutorial is missing some info (at least as far as I could figure out) :/
<cprofitt> night all
<Cheri703> marked
<UndiFineD> :)
<UndiFineD> thanks Cheri703 
<Cheri703> making a gui way of doing it would be AWESOME
 * Cheri703 hearts gui
<Cheri703> even without the other features :/
<UndiFineD> even if they do not want make it too easy, eassier and accessible would be a win
<Cheri703> yeah
<charlie-tca> I don't really know what it is like today. I signed it in 2006, when it took me three days just to download Ubuntu
<Cheri703> it's...complicated
<charlie-tca> Compared to the week to get my network connection working, the CoC signing was pretty easy then.
<Cheri703> I had people helping me and I ran into an issue (figuring out how to actually get the final version to upload)
<charlie-tca> I believe getting the gpg key is complicated. that might be a documentation issue, though. Maybe we need to look at correcting the documentation?
<Cheri703> charlie-tca: is there a way to make a gui way of generating a gpg key and using it to sign documents? people who have trouble with cli are pretty much shut out of the process
<charlie-tca> Use seahorse, it is a gui and should be able to generate the keys
<Cheri703> ok, but is that process listed anywhere? I'm talking about a program that'd have these functions: generate key, store key, import document, display/create final version for saving/pasting into page to upload (code of conduct and other documents)
<charlie-tca> I don't how much of that it can do. Documentation is not good for all of it. but, like I said, I did all that in 2006. After I finally got all the network stuff together (from 3 or 4 different websites), everything was easy.
<Cheri703> well, I'm saying maybe someone could make something to do that
<UndiFineD> the current System -> Preferences -> Passwords and keys thing does not generate a good key
<charlie-tca> I don't think that is seahorse. It is something else
<charlie-tca> It would be a good candidate for a video howto
<UndiFineD> charlie-tca, seahorse == System -> Preferences -> Passwords and keys
<hajour> hai all
<JanC> UndiFineD: that should be able to generate a good key, otherwise that's a bug
<UndiFineD> already filed it: bug  683604
<ubot2> Launchpad bug 683604 in seahorse (Ubuntu) "generated personal gpg key fingerprints are not accepted by launchpad (affects: 1) (heat: 6)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/683604
<JanC> UndiFineD: it is normal that it takes a long time to generate a key pair, remember that the faster it is to generate those, the more plausible a brute force attack becomes (for somebody with a supercomputer cluster or a botnet or such at their disposal)
<UndiFineD> then I think it is not suitable for the CoC
<JanC> why not?  waiting doesn't cost anything
<JanC> of course the UI should warn about the long time
<UndiFineD> ok, if this was a key for continues network transfers to be altered weekly, 10 minutes to generate one is fine, but this is just the CoC, used one time only
<JanC> you can use it for other things too, if you want  ;)
<UndiFineD> really ? would you ? I would use a diffirent gpg key for communication with other people
<JanC> why?
<JanC> it's actually better is both keys are the same
<JanC> at least then people can be sure you are the same person as you  ;)
<JanC> UndiFineD: did you export the key to the keyserver after generating it?  (in seahorse)
<UndiFineD> yes
<UndiFineD> the signing is done
<JanC> but you did it from the commandline I think?
<UndiFineD> yep
<JanC> maybe it's better if you explain what exactly you did in the GUI and what on the commandline, and where it went wrong
<UndiFineD> done
<hajour> what they mean by challenge by the personas?
<charlie-tca> http://yro.slashdot.org/story/10/12/01/0131240/Aussie-government-Gives-PDF-the-Thunbs-Down
<JanC> hm, that's only an issue with some PDF documents of course
<charlie-tca> If it happens to be a document you really need, it is vital
<charlie-tca> Personally, it becomes a major issue when I can't read the one document I need
<JanC> well, of course, but making PDF documents better should also be looked into
<JanC> I know the Scribus people are looking into that, but it's not always easy to do
<hajour> do they mean challenge with ubuntu ore personal?
 * hajour busy with the personas
<charlie-tca> things like signing the CoC, I think
<charlie-tca> also things you want to use the computer for. How easy is it to write, use firefox, use the music player.
<UndiFineD> so typical ubuntu stuffs
<JanC> your challenges to use Ubuntu, including related resources like the websites
<JanC> I think...
<hajour> a ok.
<charlie-tca> UndiFineD, thanks for the note about seahorse
<UndiFineD> :)
<JanC> UndiFineD: I think your problem was that you didn't publish the OpenPGP key to the keyserver
<UndiFineD> which is gpg --send-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com (pubic keypart) ?
<JanC> yes, or in the GUI select the key and then Remote -> Synchronize or something like that
<UndiFineD> that part was not even described on LP i think
<JanC> maybe check that again and add that info to the bug you filed against LP
<JanC> so that they know why it was so difficult to sign
<UndiFineD> then I would have to create another LP user ..
<charlie-tca> That is one of the issues involved. Once you have done it, you can not go back and do it again to see where things went wrong.
<hajour> AlanBell, can you explain ore no someone who can some off the things they mean by personalas?
<hajour> only need for 1.after that i can look back to the 1 wo is ready
<hajour> already have work at a copple of the personas
<hajour> faisal is almost ready i think
<hajour> need to go .have to do other things now.till later all
<hajour> good not help it.just have worked further on faisal persona.
<hajour> can someone look ore it is good?i want to use faisal for exsample how to make the others
<UndiFineD> duanedesign, I think your clicompanion should be on that software list too, for people with memory issues
<hajour> i have to go cooking.i can t read back in chat what is say when i was gone.my pc go s automatic out.after a little while.
<JanC> you can disable that
<hajour> how can i do that JanC ?
<JanC> well, I assume it's a setting in Systeem -> Voorkeuren -> Energiebeheer doing this
<hajour> its english
<JanC> System -> Preferences -> something with "power" or "energy" in the name?  âº
<hajour> ok i sal look thanks JanC 
<hajour> i have make changes in the faisal persona  http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/faisal
<hajour> charlie-tca,  chanes are in http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/faisal
<hajour> i was forgot to put a name in
<charlie-tca> not me... AlanBell or Pendulum ^ ^ ^
<hajour> ok :)
<hajour> i am bored . i cant go further with the persona.because i need more information .true example from some parts .
<hajour> i have spelling English control now.
<hajour> English spelling control i mean 
<hajour> and then suddenly the electricity was going off
<hajour> hai jono
<hajour> pendulum do you got time to look ore the changes i have make by the persona faisal are good?
<hajour> Pendulum,  ore AlanBell  i mean
<hajour> dutchie, what means whatsits by the deaf john persona?
<hajour> i am working on the persona john now
<dutchie> hajour: it doesn't mean anything, i don't know the dutch equivalent
<hajour> ok is that a made name from a fantasie company?
<`marianne`> hiya
<hajour> :) john persona is almost ready
<hajour> http://pad.ubuntu-uk.org/john
<hajour> Pendulum, do you a moment?
<hajour> got a moment i meant
<AlanBell> hi hajour 
<hajour> hai AlanBell 
<hajour> AlanBell,  do you want to check my work on the personas faisal and john
<AlanBell> just looking at it now
<hajour> ok thank you AlanBell 
<hajour> i need a exsample for a challenge.if i have that i can make it further
<hajour> i now not enough from the handicap deaf .i have to search for more information about that
<AlanBell> do you have the survey results?
<UndiFineD> yes, I gave her a coppy AlanBell 
<AlanBell> great
<UndiFineD> -p
<AlanBell> we need to base some bits on what we found out from the survey because we know that is realistic
<hajour> AlanBell, from faisal i now that out personal experience
<hajour> i got that myself
<hajour> so everthing by faisal is correct
<AlanBell> great
<AlanBell> well not great, but hey you know what I mean
<hajour> and the result from more progressive i now because my mother have that
<hajour> yes thats why i cant writhe more yet by john
<hajour> i now not yet enough from deaf
<hajour> but i was playing with the idea to go for a school for deaf people .to ask what the personal experience are from them with PC use
<hajour> np AlanBell 
<hajour> i now what you meant :)
<hajour> AlanBell,  i have to say something important
<hajour> i have made short lines because of people with dyslectic .because some of your team who have to work it out got dyslectic to 
<AlanBell> ah, ok
<AlanBell> I wondered what the short lines were for
<hajour> yes i was looking what you was doing. and i was thinking nooo
<hajour> :))
<hajour> glad you have read chat
<hajour> i just have to make it short lines again
<hajour> AlanBell, how can we prevent that others make it long lines again?
<hajour> i maybe not say much in some chats .but I do watch on what is being said.Thats why i know that some of the team who need to work it out got dyslectic
<AlanBell> well the pad is there for the rough drafting of it
<AlanBell> I am going to take that and make a pretty PDF page, and also put it on the wiki
<AlanBell> and blog it
<AlanBell> so it is going to end up here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Personas/Faisal
<hajour> so you think it is finished enough 
<AlanBell> it is getting close
<AlanBell> don't worry about editing the wiki page, just stick to the etherpad for the moment
<hajour> but AlanBell  if you look at faisal.you sal see it are not short lines anymore
<AlanBell> when we have the text really good I will format it on the wiki, I was just trying it out
<hajour> ok:)
<hajour> i just wanted to make easyer for the people who have to work it out .
<AlanBell> yes, that is great
<AlanBell> but the PDF file will be a bit different, it has to look very similar to the internal Canonical documents
<hajour> thats why i have used short lines
<hajour> mm
<AlanBell> I want them to have the same status as the existing personas they use
<hajour> AlanBell, accessibility is for making it easyer yes?
<AlanBell> but the wiki version can be short simple lines
<Pendulum> also, unfortunately line length things are one of the places where you get a lot of conflict between people with different disabilities
<hajour> why not start with do that for the group who work on it
<AlanBell> ah, because it would be a failure if only this group read them
<hajour> then you need a spoken version to :P
<AlanBell> the point of this is to educate a much wider audience about accessibility needs
<AlanBell> good point, a podcast or something would be a great thing to do with them
<AlanBell> hi Pendulum, how are things with you?
<hajour> hai Pendulum 
<hajour> hope you feeling better then last time
<hajour> but AlanBell  how i have written.is how it Sal be easier to read for people with dislectia,add,adhd,autism.
<hajour> Thats why it was realy hard to read the guide from chat,mail,enz here on ubuntu
<hajour> i needed UndiFineD  to read it at loud for me
<hajour> spoken dont now how to say it
<AlanBell> yes, and it is really interesting to see what you have done with it
<AlanBell> I certainly think we should make a point of that on the Henrietta persona
<hajour> ii sal look to the henrietta person
<hajour> i got a lot of suggestions and solutions for the henrietta person.already in my subpage from my wiki profile
<hajour> i almost not dare to say it.but i have the same problem like henrietta
<hajour> addicted to tomboy
<hajour> XD
<hajour> and i got UndiFineD 
<hajour> hai Cheri703 
<Cheri703> hi
<hajour> AlanBell, maybe it is a idea to note them on the link to the wiki from that persona in the pdf for the team who have to work it out.
<AlanBell> yes, we can certainly do that
<hajour> faisal is ready AlanBell  says
<AlanBell> not quite ready
<AlanBell> but he will be by the time Natty Alpha1 comes out
<UndiFineD> that is only a few hours away
<charlie-tca> well, maybe
<AlanBell> is it?
<charlie-tca> I broke it bad again
<hajour> i was ask some things about the persona.for a example by what there was ment.but nobody good help me
<charlie-tca> AlanBell, supposed to be out tomorrow
<AlanBell> oh, well might be a bit late then :)
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu desktop testing is on hold until they fix the images.
<hajour> they wanted but they don t no it
<hajour> i needed a example for some parts
<hajour> if i hat that i hat finis at least 1 persona complete
<hajour> example like how it stands by personas
<hajour> AlanBell, by faisal.how it looks now.it is not good for people with dislectia,adhd,add,autism.because you have put the short lines together 
<hajour> i am not want to hurt your feelings.i know from the pdf enz.but on wiki its better for the short line version
<hajour> am i allowed to make it with short lines again for the wiki paige?
<Pendulum> I think having 2 versions is not a bad idea because, for example, I actually don't do as well with a lot of short lines as I do with paragraphs
<Pendulum> (because my brain gets overwhelmed and thinks it's too long to read if it looks like there are a lot of lines)
<Pendulum> but the version for developers really should be like the current design personas
<hajour> ok Pendulum thats why AlanBell put the lines together in the pdf .i have say my idea to make a link in it to the wiki page for theshort line version
<hajour> Pendulum, you know that in the group who have to work it out also people are with dislectie?and there are working a lot of people in the it who have a kind of autism.add.adhd?
<JanC> those people don't necessarily have dyslexia
<Pendulum> hajour: to be honest, I know a few people in open source with various things such as autism, adhd, etc. but not everyone needs the short lines and I've not had many people comment on it. 
<Pendulum> sorry, I need to disappear again (I am quite literally falling apart today complete with a sprained ankle from trying to walk 2 steps)
<hajour> JanC, someone wo have not dislectia but have adhd ore add ore autism cant read it also dificult if it are not long lines
<charlie-tca> Pendulum, I would think you know to take care of yourself, please.
<hajour> mostly they dont say it
<charlie-tca> I hate when I start falling apart, every time I do it.
<hajour> but Pendulum  you health is more important
<Pendulum> charlie-tca: well the good news is that I already have about 3 different levels of ankle brace ;-) 
<charlie-tca> yup! that always helps
 * AlanBell hugs Pendulum 
<charlie-tca> We need you
<AlanBell> hajour: don't edit the wiki page for the moment, not because I don't want short lines there, but because I intend to delete it all and copy it across from the etherpad again
<AlanBell> I don't want you to go through the wiki making short lines and then me to go mess it up afterwards!
<UndiFineD> can we keep it as an example ?
<AlanBell> the short lines are fine, I just want to keep the content editing on the etherpad for the moment
<hajour> i know a lot of people with that kind of handicaps.and most of the people choose not to say it to there boss.because they are afraid to loose there job.ore that they not may work anymore to some projects.
<AlanBell> yes, that is important
<AlanBell> what we have to get across to developers is that if Ubuntu is more accessible then Faisal can keep his job for longer
<AlanBell> and Faisal is a really nice chap and we should help him out
<hajour> because there are stil many prejudices about that kind of handicaps
<hajour> i loved to wrk on the faisal persona because he was come close with a few things tto my experience
<hajour> work i mean
<AlanBell> that is great, we want them realistic
<AlanBell> but not recognisable, they are fictional
<hajour> recognisable=?
<hajour> UndiFineD,  have already told what that meant 
<AlanBell> they are not supposed to be based on anyone we know
<hajour> cant help it i have a creaky body :)
<hajour> i trye to see things always with a sense of humor.i think thats my power to.that i always hold on and not fast give up
<AlanBell> :)
<hajour> life is tuf enough.
<hajour> why not make it a bit lighter
<AlanBell> so it is totally fine to put some of your experiences into faisal, he is a man teaching in india, quite clearly not you!
<hajour> yes. so far i now i am still a women.
<AlanBell> but I wouldn't turn him into a woman from the Netherlands
<AlanBell> presume you are from Holland?
<hajour> not me plz i am much to difficult to make a persona from.dive s unther the table
<hajour> yes i am from holland
<AlanBell> :)
<hajour> oops medicine time else i go writhe like a druk.brb
<hajour> drunk i mean.already starting
<hajour> beginning i mean
<hajour> if you want ask me something difficult then wait 10 minits.then medicine sal be working again.
<hajour> was to late,forgot
<hajour> i have to look better at the time
<hajour> AlanBell, i Sal working tomorrow further on the personas
<hajour> hai JanC 
<AlanBell> night hajour 
<hajour> the short lines was not only meant for people with dyslectic.for if you had misunderstand me
<hajour> .:)
<hajour> o sleep well AlanBell 
<hajour> what means Launchpad teams exactly?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-02
<AlanBell> this is a launchpad team https://launchpad.net/~accessibility
<JanC> hajour: a group of users on launchpad
<JanC> like the one AlanBell points to
<hajour> ok i go look .thanks
<hajour> professional people i assume ?
<Pendulum> hajour: nope, that's the launchpad team for us
<hajour> a ok
<hajour> i am not in a launchpadteam i think
<hajour> if i understand my page on launchpad
<charlie-tca> hajour, you can join the launchpad team for accessibility
<hajour> how can i do that?
<charlie-tca> go to that team in firefox and find a button that says "join"
<charlie-tca> there should be a "join this team" on the right side
<hajour> done 
<hajour> do i have to do something more?
<charlie-tca> Did it say anything?
<hajour> You have successfully joined Accessibility.
<charlie-tca> Great! Now you are on a team
<hajour> thought i already was in the team :))
<charlie-tca> We have many places to join and help
<charlie-tca> You are in the team here. You are in the team on forums, I think. You are helping the team. 
<charlie-tca> Now you are a member of the launchpad team
<hajour> what can i do for the launchpad 
<hajour> launchpad team i mean
<charlie-tca> You don't do anything. It counts for a how many persons on the team thing
<hajour> ok :)thought maybe there was something to help there to
<charlie-tca> No, We help in here and on the wiki and stuff
<hajour> ok:)
<hajour> if the personas are ready where we working do we get then new personas?
<hajour> working on i mean
<hajour> if i can figure out how inkscape works exactly.i can make drawings with it.
<hajour> i wonder if it is more difficult then pencil and paper
<hajour> ubuntu thinks further about what people really need.ubuntu the community that really cares about people. just playing with some words
<JanC> drawing with a computer tends to be more difficult for some things and easier for other things
<hajour> mmm i have to use on it
<JanC> and if you like to use crayons, then MyPaint might be interesting
<JanC> it can simulate all sorts of crayons, pencils, brushes, etc.
<hajour> already drawing years  with pencil and crayons
<hajour> i Sal look.inkscape is finally a program what is more understandable for me
<hajour> its 3.10 in night here in about 10 minutes i go to sleep
<hajour> goodnight all
<hajour> hai all
<hajour> Pendulum, i like to have that sort information what you have told last night.about the lines.it helps me to make good personas
<hajour> i have worked  true last night til 3.45 in night about that in odt documents.if i have enough i put it in by personas again.
<hajour> and i are thinking about how to do it.so you and me can read it easy
<hajour> first i need to sleep now.only have got 2 and a half hour sleep last night
<Pendulum> hajour: yes sleep! please don't burn yourself out on this
<Pendulum> you've done a lot of work and you need to take care of yourself first
<hajour> sometimes i am lost my out switch.then my mind go s on and on
<hajour> i just care very much about this project
<hajour> i will be here in evening .that will be in about 7 hours from now
<hajour> off to sleep now till later
<hajour> hai all
<hajour> Pendulum,  ore AlanBell  just a idea for the line problem .Automatic breakup of long sentences in to smaller ones with correct punctuation.
<hajour> i am really terrible a wake up and that idea came up.first think i think on is the accessibility program
<hajour> first thing i think on i mean
<hajour> akk told me there is already something like that.but its not very good.we need a version with better English.
<hajour> hai Cheri703 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-03
<hajour> hai MichelleQ 
<MichelleQ1> Hi
<hajour> :)
<hajour> i have put a new idea by the list for accessibility by my sub page
<charlie-tca> Pendulum, re-wrote the meeting page. Looks better to me now
<hajour> good night all
<hajour> hai all
<hajour> AlanBell, do you got a moment?
<AlanBell> yes
<hajour> i possibly got a solution for the line problem
<hajour> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/accesibility
<hajour> last on the list
<hajour> there is something like that i heard from akk.but we need a better one.because akk told me that the English is not very good from that program
<hajour> the was talking about a vim macro
<AlanBell> it is a hard problem to solve http://www.criticalreading.com/sentence_predicate_modifiers.htm
<AlanBell> computers would often make bad splitting decisions which would make the sentance less readable
<UndiFineD> computers would often
<UndiFineD> make bad splitting decisions which
<UndiFineD> would make the sentance less readable
<hajour> yes AlanBell . thats the problem.but it maybe someone can solve that
<UndiFineD> -- and that is still being very good at it
<hajour> its a challenge to solve AlanBell .but we have smart people here on ubuntu and attached to ubuntu .you never know what come s out
<AlanBell> computers would often make bad
<AlanBell> it would need to understand complex sentences
<UndiFineD> AlanBell, is there an AI focus group around ?
<AlanBell> not sure, but that is the right area certainly
<AlanBell> natural language parsing
<UndiFineD> yes, that would be my interest
<hajour> it certainly solve a big problem with reading difficulties .by dyslectic,autism,add/adhd and by some forms of brain damage 
<UndiFineD> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-349955.html
<UndiFineD> not quite right
<hajour> going to lunch now til later.
<hajour> back again
<hajour> hai MichelleQ 
<hajour> hai Pendulum 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-04
<hajour> hai all
<hajour> hai charlie-tca 
<charlie-tca> Hello, hajour 
<hajour> charlie-tca, last night i have made a poem about ubuntu
<charlie-tca> english or dutch?
<hajour> o XD and also the logo from ubuntu in chocolate
<hajour> in english
<charlie-tca> Neat!
<hajour> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/hajour/poems  below the page
<charlie-tca> looking
<charlie-tca> beautiful
<charlie-tca> hajour, that is a really nice poem
<hajour> thanks charlie-tca 
<hajour> the translation from the poem in dutch  are standing side by side
<hajour> hai Pendulum 
<hajour> how are you?
#ubuntu-accessibility 2010-12-05
<hajour> hai all
<hajour> hai all
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-29
 * AlanBell has a plan
<AlanBell> I have a dummy speech dispatcher module that outputs to a text file instead of sound
<AlanBell> I think I can boot a live CD and install that module at the ubiquity screen from the terminal, then go through the install and end up with a full transcript of the speech
<AlanBell> http://www.thevarguy.com/2011/11/28/improving-accessibility-major-focus-for-next-ubuntu-release/
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-11-30
<AlanBell> http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/orca.out
<AlanBell> that is the output from orca when doing an install
<Fudge> hi does anyone know how I can configure the workspace switching for oneiric so apps only appear on the workspaces they are on?
<Fudge> good idea  AlanBell  capturing the output
<AlanBell> Fudge: there is an option in the ccsm preferences for unity to favour apps on the current workspace
<Fudge> ok ill find it
<Fudge> AlanBell  how can i get to the options?
<Fudge> do not see it in system
<AlanBell> um, one sec
<AlanBell> ok, do you have compizconfig-settings-manager?
<AlanBell> ccsm is the executable
<AlanBell> in there are settings for various compiz plugins, one is the ubuntu unity plugin
<Fudge> only in /usr/share/csm and it does not seem to be installed
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-12-01
<AlanBell> double c
<AlanBell> ccsm
<Fudge> dpkg list for compiz http://paste.ubuntu.com/755525/
<Fudge> oh i missed the double c
<AlanBell> are you sighted or using orca Fudge?
<Fudge> orca
<Fudge> I just dont like how I move apps to workspaces but when i alt tab I get all of them anyway, the out of the box defaults do not really seem to make sense to me
<AlanBell> if it is any consolation they don't make sense with eyes either
<Fudge> in previous gnomes I configure workspace switcher to show only apps on the current workspace so the panel did not clutter, I thought a similar tweak woudl work here
<Fudge> how does the task switcher you are using differ to the what is shipped with unity
<AlanBell> the one with unity is an "application switcher" normally they are "window switchers"
<AlanBell> so it switches between all windows of a certain type all at once in a confusing an annoying way
<AlanBell> oh, I broke my orca
<Fudge> oh dear
<Fudge> also the switcher does not update nautilus folders i noticed
<AlanBell> ah, right I have a silent orca logging to a text file because I was doing that installer transcript
<AlanBell> ok, so I will pastebin a transcript of using ccsm with orca
<Fudge> its funny how you forget obvious things when you get carried away with other stuff
<Fudge> cool
<AlanBell> yeah, I wasn't doing it on this machine, but I broke my speechd.conf to copy that over to the one I was installing on
<Fudge> lol
<AlanBell> http://paste.ubuntu.com/755531/
<AlanBell> sadly the GUI is a bit messed up with the keyboard
<Fudge> oh well
<Fudge> not to worry
<AlanBell> so that paste is roughly how I got to the relevant checkbox and I see it didn't read out the names of the checkboxes /o\
<AlanBell> the lable should be "Bias alt-tab sorting to prefer windows on the current viewport"
<phillw> AlanBell: are you aware that meetingoligy just died?
<AlanBell> alternatively and again probably with sighted assitance, in the window management area there is a different switcher called the application switcher
<AlanBell> phillw: I am now
 * phillw sorry :(
<Fudge> heres something, orca is telling me the time when the minute changes, in fullscreen totem movie player
<Fudge> i tick an option and ccsmsegfaults
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-12-02
<Fudge> AlanBell  ping - you tried gdm3?
<AlanBell> hi Fudge, no, don't think I have, just lightdm
<AlanBell> which doesn't work :(
<Fudge> gdm is worse it seems
<Fudge> do you have somewhere you can try it?
<Fudge> the idea was to use gdm for a while till lightdm comes to the party with orca access
<Fudge> more to the point so i can select unity2d, the command TheMuso  gave me to do it I am doing something wrong with loL
<AlanBell> I can try installing it on a precise VM I have here
<Fudge> sweet thanx
<Fudge> should be the same state I guess
<AlanBell> to get to unity2d in lightdm it is: tab enter down down enter tab password enter
<Fudge> oh AlanBell  i did not realise i can just cheat and edit lighdm.conf
<Fudge> I went to do your suggestion but I had autologin turned on, so looking for  that config setting found the other one
<Fudge> wow this is much better in 2d
<Fudge> quick launcher reads out lots more
<Fudge> must be difficult to maintain two desktops in essence
<AlanBell> there is a fair bit of common code, I think they were kind of not sure which was the best approach so decided to do both
<Fudge> i find it strange that 2d works better than 3d
<Fudge> im just happy now the workspaces work how i expect them to 
<AlanBell> great
<AlanBell> I am surprised that 2d ended up working better, I always thought 3d would be the more accessible one, but the Qt stuff actually came together fairly well
<Fudge> me too
<Fudge> thats a neet output module for sd you did, very practical uses
<Fudge> I imagine it could come in quite handy for docs
<AlanBell> yes, also means that someone sighted can just use their application and see afterwards what an unsighted user would have heard
<AlanBell> I guess it also means a deaf person can support a blind person as a niche side effect!
<Fudge> voiceover has funtionality built in, actually doesn't orca have something similar?
<AlanBell> not really, I asked joanie about it, there is some debug log outputs, but not a clean transcript
<Fudge> maybe i am thinking of voiceover, cant recall
<Fudge> lol imagine an upgrade with  that
<Fudge> 3 percent ... 4 percent ...
<Fudge> AlanBell  did you have a chance to check gdm out
<Fudge> I figured as lightdm is not complete for accessibility people will revert to gdm
<AlanBell> oh, I installed it, let me reboot
<AlanBell> I hope lightdm will be accessible in precise, they wanted to do it for oneiric but ran out of time and there was a problem starting orca over it or something
<AlanBell> ok, it started, no orca though
<AlanBell> no bottom panel where the accessibility stuff used to be
<AlanBell> I can't start orca
<joanie> why not?
<AlanBell> from gdm, there is no bottom panel to start it from, switching to a terminal and DISPLAY=:0 orca does not work either
<joanie> oh in gdm, not in a session
<AlanBell> indeed, starts fine when I log in from gdm
<Fudge> mm must be something here then causing my probs
<Fudge> was looking for at-spi-registryd or something similar to that
<Fudge> a few times ive ran orca from gnome-terminal and gotten the text setup, even though i already have orca configuration files
<Fudge> hey joanie  how you
<joanie> fine thanks. you?
<Fudge> going good, sorry i havnt sent that email yet
<Fudge> is it beer-o-clock yet
<joanie> no worries
 * joanie is busy working on other stuff
<Fudge> no good mate
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-12-03
<Fudge> hi all
<MrChrisDruif> Aloha Fudge 
<Fudge> MrChrisDruif  hi
<MrChrisDruif> I'm thinking about a midnight snack...shall I do it?
<Fudge> its nearly midday here so i would say yes
<Fudge> it means u have to be online longer ofc
<MrChrisDruif> Haha, it's 01:45 AM here ;-)
<Fudge> oh
<Fudge> downlaoding alpha 1 AlanBell 
#ubuntu-accessibility 2011-12-04
<Fudge> anyone alive
<Fudge> apport does not appear to be accessible with orca? installer crashes on 1204-a1 at 90%, hapenned twice to me 64bit using accessible profile
<AlanBell> for those wanting the unity launcher to be zoomable or chunkier I have found how to make it a bit bigger
