#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-01-31
<ronj> howdy
<ailo> ronj: Ronan, right?
<ronj> ailo, yup. I agree with your email, maybe the perf improvements with -lowlatency occur on heavy setups with lots of i/o
<ronj> could use some more testing
<ronj> well that was what somebody suggested at some point in the mailinglist
<ronj> ailo, also could you add your results to the table?
<ailo> Me and rlameiro are about to create a test program using a script and puredata, which hopefully can be useful for finding that out.
<ronj> even if it's only qualitative
<ronj> oooh great :)
<ronj> excellent
<ailo> I will post my results too. 
<ronj> share it the mailinglist once it's done, i'll be happy to run it on my system
<ronj> ok
<ailo> Will do
<ailo> ronj: I'm not able to boot the latest -lowlatency. All I need is the image and the headers, right? Why is it not booting?
<ronj> ailo, right, only -image and -headers, seems the linux-lowlatency metapackage isn't up2date (stayed at .37)
<ronj> for me it boots fine
<ronj> any error message?
<ailo> Mine just stops and reboots
<ailo> Just after Grub
<ronj> oÃ
<ailo> Maybe I should reinstall, and try again
<ronj> hm and have a look at the log
<ailo> Grub log?
<ScottL> rlameiro, how was the install failing on the ubuntustudio ISO image?
<rlameiro> tasksel menu -> choose  packages --> error on install
<rlameiro> after that it seds me to the list of the install i continue trying with different choices, even without selecting any task
<rlameiro> and the same happens
<rlameiro> eventualy i quit
<ScottL> rlameiro, did you have the lv2, ladspa, and dssi plugins each as a separate choices during selection?
<ScottL> rlameiro, not that you picked them, just were they there as separate choices, as opposed to how they are usually which is all three together as one choice
<rlameiro> I had lv2, dssi separated
<rlameiro> yest they were separated
<ronj> rlameiro, ScottL btw I tried todays iso and it installed fine with all the audio packages checked
<ronj> (all except video and graphic)
<rlameiro> hummm
<ScottL> i am planning on talking to cjwatson tomorrow while i am at work about this
<ailo> I'm guessing I get better luck with /var/log/boot, but I had to enable logging from /etc/default/bootlogd
<rlameiro> i tried 29th build
<rlameiro> AMD64
<ronj> mine is todays/i386
<rlameiro> letme rzync it
<rlameiro> ronj: real hardware or VM?
<rlameiro> rsynced
<ailo> I needed to reinstall the -lowlatency image. I forgot to install the headers first and booted. After that installing headers did not change the boot problem, but reinstalling the image did
<ronj> rlameiro, real hardware, dell vostro v13
<rlameiro> ok
<ScottL> ailo, in response to the email:  i expect the reason i say such a dramatic change between -generic and -lowlatency is because i was the old -generic kernel with the cgroups problems where i couldn't get -rt privileges
<rlameiro> reboot time, cd stuck on the slot.... DVD RW not reliable yet
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> cya soon
<ailo> ScottL: I can almost swear that I had two different results on the same kernel, within two days time. Maybe I'm imagining, doesn't matter. Now, I'm getting good results. Seems like the Desktop is faster on the newest kernel, both on -generic and -lowlatency. Just a feeling :)
<ronj> ScottL, could you test with todays -generic, with the cgroups stuff sorted out?
<ronj> I'm updating the table
<rlameiro> where is the table?
<ronj> rlameiro, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime#Natty%20Benchmarks
<rlameiro> ronj: thanks
<rlameiro> ok, rebooting to test it out...
<rlameiro> i will come shortly :D
<ScottL> ronj, i should be able to test it by tomorrow evening
<ronj> yay :)
<ailo> I get identical performance and behaviour from the two kernels, from what I see
<ailo> 2.9 ms on both
<ailo> I can even push it to 1.45 on both, if I don't do anything while Ardour is playing or recording.
<ailo> (zzz)
<ronj> interesting
<rlameiro> ok tasksel menu now
<rlameiro> hummm :D 
<rlameiro> it seems its working
<ScottL> rlameiro, did you still have the fragmented plugin selections?
<ScottL> we did get the -video metapackage cleared earlier
<rlameiro> yes :)
<rlameiro> i selected lv2, dssi, tone generation and recording
<rlameiro> i think
<rlameiro> ScottL, can it be installed later as a metapackage?
<rlameiro> well install will take some time, i think i will watch a docu
<ronj> ScottL, need iso testing on -video?
<ScottL> rlameiro, yes, it can be installed later as a meta package
<ScottL> ronj, i don't think we need anything specifically tested, it was that the package wasn't building correclty before because a package had been removed from the repository
<ronj> k
<ScottL> the seeds were updated for the video metapack age and the package began to build correctly once again :)
<rlameiro> hey!!! why does it try to run unity???????
<rlameiro> lol and on top crashed the system
<ScottL> rlameiro, remember, when you login you must pick "classic desktop" session instead of "ubuntu desktop edition"
<rlameiro> lol, too late
<ScottL> i have a patch attached to the bug for this but it hasn't been uploaded yet
<rlameiro> now it doesnt boot
<ScottL> rlameiro, reboot and change the selection
<rlameiro> well it boots but dont start....
<rlameiro> let me try again
<rlameiro> nope.... it stops before the login window
<rlameiro> weird...
<rlameiro> i will wait to see if it is thiking on RAM
<rlameiro> rebooted 3 times
<rlameiro> crashed on all of them
<rlameiro> tried to go using the recovery failsafeX same problem
<rlameiro> what can i do?
<rlameiro> maybe there is some conf file i can edit for the boot?
<rlameiro> ScottL, do you have any idea how i can fix it?
<rlameiro> on the cli
<rlameiro> I had a segmentation fault on Xorg server
<rlameiro> well i made an apt-get upgrade and disconnected the mouse and it worked
<rlameiro> lol
<rlameiro> i connected the mouse while logging in the first time
<ScottL> rlameiro, glad you managed to get it working then :)
<rlameiro> well, tested usb with generic kernel
<rlameiro> tomorrow will test firewire
<rlameiro> cya 
<ailo> ScottL: http://en.flossmanuals.net/ There's a few multimedia manuals there. Check it out.
<ailo> Quite a lot of Video manuals.
<scott-work> cjwatson pointed out what the problem probably is for the ladpsa/lv2/dssi task during installation
<scott-work> apparently there is a mishandling of the comma-space separator for the audio-plugins
<scott-work> i'll see about making the changes tonight
<scott-work> TheMuso: would you be able to update the meta packages again?
<scott-work> just for the record, this is the offending line:  Task-Description: LADSPA, LV2, and DSSI audio plugins
<scott-work> specifically the use of commas
<scott-work> TheMuso: nevermind, i bugged (read: begged) cjwatson and he said updating the metas is uneccesary and even updated the sees and will rerun his tasksel script shortly
<scott-work> this should fix the tasksel for alpha2 :)
<scott-work> s/sees/seeds
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-01
<ScottL> rlameiro, the audio-plugin tasksel should be fixed for alpha2 tomorrow or the next day :)
<rlameiro> nice
 * ScottL feels kinda silly though thinking that the meta packages needed to be rebuilt because of the tasksel problem when i knew cjwatson runs a script to generate them
<rlameiro> oops
<ScottL> i've been having a LOT of kernel panics on a machine i bought from ebay, it's a dell p4 with hyperthreading
<ScottL> but it also has 3.25 gigs of memory and it's a 32 bit machine
<ScottL> anyone have any idea if the extra memory or the HT would cause kernel panics about 2/3rds of the time?
<rlameiro> it might
<rlameiro> maybe the RAM is malfuncioning
<ScottL> rlameiro, i'm going to do a fresh install of maverick and see how it behaves, this way i can do some backporting tonight and tomorrow, then test the iso image for natty next
<ScottL> if maverick doesn't have these problems then i think it may be the new kernel
<ScottL> if the problem persists then i probably tear down the computer and start building it piece by piece until i find the failing part :/
<rlameiro> ScottL: I had problems with memory before
<rlameiro> in windows it crashed all the time
<rlameiro> in linux it run way better, but you never know
<ScottL> well i did find that it had two 1gig sticks on memory in one channel, the other had a 1gig and a 512megabtye stick
<ScottL> i thought maybe having one channel not matching might have done it but i've already removed the 1 and the 0.25 gig sticks
<ScottL> it still is giving me problems
<ailo> I don't know if faulty memory would cause kernel panic. Usually the system just freezes for me. Try using only one stick
<ailo> Ah, ok
<ailo> How about pci cards, anything added to the machine?
<ailo> Though, still, why kernel panic?
<ailo> I'm having trouble booting -lowlatency sometimes.
<ailo> Don't get any message. It stops at the purple screen
<ailo> Im worried that I have a hardware problem. Maybe the drive. It's newly bought, but I started having issues after I replaced the drive.
<rlameiro> ailo
<rlameiro> do ctrl-alt-FN1
<ailo> ctrl-alt-F1?
<ailo> My usb keyboard is shut down too during that process. I should try replacing that too
<rlameiro> weird
<rlameiro> you should enable that on bios
<rlameiro> that key shortcut is to acces to tty1
<rlameiro> virtual consoles
<ailo> Aha
<rlameiro> maybe it outputs some data
<rlameiro> or press esc during boot
<ailo> I should try with a non-usb keyboard
<ScottL> i forget to mention that it usually stops during boot, maybe before grub, maybe right after grub, sometimes just before completing boot
<ScottL> but the reason i think it's kernel panic is because the caps lock and one other light begin to flashing in sync
<paultag> ScottL: what hardware / modules?
<paultag> ScottL: any hardware changes? Is this on boot or during runtime?
<ailo> ScottL: Do you have this problem with -generic? Have you tried evaluating that?
<paultag> oh you just said it
<paultag> ScottL: lucid?
<rlameiro> natty
<paultag> ah, hum.
<paultag> ScottL: try bisecting the kernel deltas from maverick
<paultag> ScottL: was it working in maverick?
<persia> Before raw bisect, one can get value from just trying different packaged versions.  bisect between two revisions tends to be easier.
<paultag> persia: +1
<persia> Technically a bisect is faster, but requires a fair bit more attention :)
<paultag> persia: truth :)
 * paultag gets back to family guy
<ailo> rlameiro: About our audio-test program. I'm working on the script, which will probably be pretty simple, but I need to work out some details. Do you want us to share the work on the pd patch?
<rlameiro> its ok
<rlameiro> we can share the work :D
<ailo> I'm also considering if we should use git or something. I have a git account we could use for it
<ailo> Just need to get your ssh key, so you can push your patches there
<ailo> Or do you have your own CVS, or the like?
<ScottL> i've already installed maverick and am getting updates, i'll reboot after that a few times and see what happens...i notice the kernel is 2.6.35
<ScottL> i believe i had this machine running ubuntu studio lucid for a month or so without the problems i'm experiencing recently now that i think about it
<ScottL> maverick seems to work just fine for me, paultag or persia, do you have any suggestions for figuring out what my problem might be?
<ScottL> even if you recommend posting a question on #ubuntu-kernel, that would be a welcome suggestion
<ScottL> or even suggestions on how to provide an adequate bug report in this case
<persia> ScottL, Maverick works with the latest kernel in -updates?
<persia> If so, upgrade to Natty, except not upgrading the kernel, then install each Natty kernel until one breaks.
<persia> If not, then install each Maverick kernel between the base kernel and the latest in -updates until one breaks.
<persia> Once you have one that breaks, hunt down JFo and ask what information beyond the kernel versions is useful in a bug report for a regression in bootability.
<ScottL> persia, eh, i hadn't enabled updates yet, i will do that and see if anything breaks
<ScottL> oh, i had -updates enabled by default, it was -backports that i was thinking wasn't enabled
<ScottL> persia, how should i upgrade to natty from a maverick install
<persia> -backports should never contain a kernel, so you ought be safe there.
<persia> So, the *right* way to upgrade is `update-manager -d` or `do-release-upgrade -d`, but we're not going to do it that way :)
<persia> The following should only be used for debugging purposes:
<persia> 1) Go to https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux and get all the kernel packages that were uploaded to Natty.
<persia> 2) Make sure aptitude is installed on your system
<persia> 3) edit /etc/apt/sources.list and change every occurance of maverick to natty
<persia> 4) run `sudo aptitude -u` to get all the new updates
<persia> 5) Press '+' when "Upgradable Packages" is highlighted
<persia> 6) Press 'g'
<persia> 7) Navigate the package selection ('Enter' opens a submenu), and find the attempt to upgrade "linux" or "linux-generic" or "generic-linux" or whichever one you have installed (the kernel metapackage)
<ScottL> persia, just to make sure, you realize that natty is development currently?
<persia> 8) When the kernel metapackage is highlighted, press ':' to not upgrade that.
<persia> ScottL, Yes.  This is a fresh install you're willing to reinstall tomorrow after filing the bug if necessary, right?
<persia> I run natty one one of my laptops, just to keep track of the changes, but yeah, it's not really suitable for getting real work done.
<persia> 9) Press 'g' again to upgrade most of the packages
<persia> 10) Press 'q' as many times as required to quit aptitude once the upgrade is complete.
<persia> 11) Reboot
<ScottL> persia, i have a fresh maverick install that i am ready to reinstall tomorrow, yes :)
<persia> 12) In order, install each kernel package that was published in natty, and reboot
<persia> At some point, whilst repeating step 12, you will not be able to boot (if you can replicate the bug noted above).
<persia> At that point, report the version that worked and the version that didn't work in a bug report, and bug JFo for what other details are useful.
<persia> This is actually a fairly safe time to upgrade to natty, because of the Alpha 2 freeze (which should have started 3:30 ago, but ... )
<ScottL> persia, did you see that i got the tasksel hopefully fixed with cjwatson :)   
<persia> I did.  Nice work.
<scott-upstairs> persia, i went to https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux, but i'm not show how to get all the kernel packages for natty
<scott-upstairs> at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/linux i found thirty release of the kernel for natty
<persia> Heh, yeah, there's been a few uploads :)
<persia> When did it last seem to work?  I'd recommend starting from there.
<ScottL> persia, but how do i get them?  navigate to the page with a .deb file and download it?
<persia> Right.  I tend to find https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+publishinghistory useful, with the links on the right.
<persia> Starting from https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic/+source/linux/2.6.31-22.71 might well be a reasonable place: I think that's the last 2.6.37 that was uploaded.
<persia> And I suspect you would have encountered an issue before now if that was bad.
<persia> Unless I'm guessing wrong, the issue came with the 2.6.38 kernel (as that was the more significant change)
<persia> Err, wrong link :(
<persia> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/natty/+source/linux/2.6.37-12.26 was the one I thought might be a safe starting point.
<ScottL> i was having trouble with the 2.6.37 kernel as well, don't know how far back though
<persia> Hmm.  Well, you're choice where to start.  I'm not sure what would succeed/fail.
<scott-work> wow...looks like all the xorg packages blew up this morning :/
<holstein> scott-work: in general?
<holstein> or relating to gnome?
<scott-work> holstein: it looks like in general, they failed to build for some reason, i'm guessing a change someone made yesterday which will be fixed by tomorrow :)
 * holstein ponders the term 'freeze' ;)
<scott-work> we're only under debian import freeze with feature freeze coming up soon
<holstein> OIC
<holstein> they'll sort it out anyways
<scott-work> persia:  i think i messed something up last night updating my maverick install as i was quite tired when i got to attempting it and was driven to distraction by the dogs barking to go outside at almost midnight :/
<scott-work> persia: nonetheless, this morning i resinstalled maverick again and after updating again will try it again
<scott-work> new blog post if anyone is interested: http://dullass.blogspot.com/
<scott-work> congrats jussi on the council wins
<astraljava> council wins?
<scott-work> astraljava: http://ubuntu-news.org/2011/02/01/new-irc-council-members/
<holstein> cool
<holstein> congrats jussi :)
<astraljava> coolness! conga-rats jussi01! but I thought he was already a part of the council. oh well, I must be out of my mind... which is nothing new
<jussi> astraljava: it was re-election
<astraljava> Ahh... sorry that wasn't clear to me from the page.
<TheMuso> There is a xorg transition going on in Ubuntu, hense the CD blow up.
<TheMuso> It should all be settled come the next build.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-02
<ScottL> TheMuso, did you have a chance to look at the patch for unity/gnome-classic ?
<TheMuso> ScottL: Not yet, got some more important things on my plate atm, will look as soon as I can.
<ScottL> TheMuso, thanks
<scott-work> persia: i reinstall maverick, ran "sudo aptitude -u", removed all kernel packages that i could find, and install the packages
<scott-work> persia: i checked that the kernel was the same version as with maverick and i'm now experiencing problems with kernel panic :?
<scott-work> persia:  i noticed that i have a non-consistant experience with grub though, and have been
<scott-work> sometimes i get the grub menu, othertimes i do not
<scott-work> all the kernel panics happen before grub or directly after the grub menu
<scott-work> i also noticed that the version of grub in maverick differs from that in natty
<scott-work> i'll do search in launchpad for grub bugs during lunch today
<scott-work> persia: does this seem sane?  or more likely, is there some gaping, missing piece of information that i don't know about?
<scott-work> and i should point out, i'm defining this as a kernel panic because the scroll lock and caps lock lights flashing
<scott-work> s/flashing/flash and the computer has a hard lockup
<persia> scott-work, Another option is a problem with grub.  Maybe try not upgrading grub and upgrading everything else (even the kernel)?
<persia> When you get home from work :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-03
<ScottL> i'm hoping after the alpha2 image is tested we can make progress on updating the menu for new applications, are there any takers out there?
<holstein> ScottL: hey
<holstein> i was going to try and take that on
<ScottL> it's pretty simple to fix and i can walk someone through an example
<holstein> right?
<ScottL> oh, yeah...i forgot about that holstein 
<ScottL> :)
<holstein> i'll give it a go
<holstein> i'll ping you when im sitting around bored
<holstein> should be some of that this weekend i hope
<ScottL> holstein, i'm not in a huge rush currently, just wanted to make sure someone was lined up for it
<ScottL> ideally it would be nice to have it completed before alpha3 through
<holstein> ScottL: i feel like i can do that
<holstein> i remember it not looking too crazy
<ScottL> yeah, it's really not, once you understand what needs to be done and how it just becomes tedious
<ScottL> :P
<ScottL> i start my rpm challenge this week
<ScottL> i'm lining up the songs now, playing around with them and thinking of more lyrics
<ScottL> i should start recording by this weekend for it but only have the month of february
<holstein> i thought i had missed that
<ScottL> i've had significant improvement each of the last two years, both quantitatively and qualitatively
<ScottL> i think this year will not be an exception to that :)
<holstein> awesome
<ScottL> this is kinda why i like doing it...first, because if i don't i'll probably put off recording *anything* all year and secondly, because if i keep doing it i'll get better as well
<ScottL> i need to also look at the release planning page and see what else is in the queue
<ScottL> i suppose i also need to file out the team report for january since it will be due february 10th as well
<holstein> meeting is on the radar too
<ScottL> ah yeah, we defintely need that
<rlameiro> good morning
<rlameiro> ScottL, testing Iso now. anything you want me to look at especially?
<rlameiro> ScottL, well, generic tested... quite impressed
<rlameiro> problem is taht pd doesnt like much the 3 + periods of buffer
<rlameiro> installing abogani kernel now
<rlameiro> well quite strange the testing.
<rlameiro> scott-work, having some weird stuff happening on testing
<scott-work> rlameiro: yeah?
<rlameiro> well, lot of xruns
<rlameiro> even on low latency
<rlameiro> but at first generic run very nice....
<rlameiro> but as i oushed with a pd patch, a pretty simple one it gives a lot of xruns and cracks on pd
<scott-work> rlameiro: are you running kernel version 2.6.37?  if so it has known problems
<rlameiro> well, i should say i am using 8 channels output...
<scott-work> there is a whole email about cgroups and not being able to get -rt privileges
<rlameiro> no. 2.6.38-1
<scott-work> oh, hmmm that should work then for .38
<scott-work> i wonder if the -lowlatency is .38 yet
<rlameiro> there is one ther3
<rlameiro> there
<scott-work> i think abogani was going to work on that, don't know if he's got it yet
<rlameiro> there is one on the ppa
<rlameiro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RealTime#Natty%20Benchmarks
<rlameiro> over here the kernel is .38 low latency
<scott-work> i've had signficiant instability with my natty installs lately and haven't been testing much, just trying to fix some bugs and leaving my computer on when i manage to get it booted
<rlameiro> scott-work, well, it could be that too
<scott-work> rlameiro: if you could add your test results to that wiki page that would be awesome
<scott-work> rlameiro: especially if you are realling loading the comptuer too
<rlameiro> well i need to understand them first :D
<scott-work> rlameiro: well yeah, that is true :)
<rlameiro> i am documenting some with screenshots for memory purposes
<scott-work> rlameiro: i say that because so far we have experience comparable performance between -generic and -lowlatency
<rlameiro> rebooting now
<rlameiro> lets see how it goes
<scott-work> persia mentioned heavily loading the computer during testing
<rlameiro> i made a little project to record all the 8 channels on ardour... 
<rlameiro> lets see how it goes
<scott-work> perhaps his thought was that we would discover a performance differential between -generic and -lowlatency when the computer is loaded heavily
<rlameiro> yeap
<scott-work> i think so far the tests have been relatively light, i know my original one was
<scott-work> so i'm really curious to see how your results compare :)
<rlameiro> there is a problem tough
<rlameiro> noone mentioned on the wiki wich architecture are using
<rlameiro> i am testing x64.....
<rlameiro> the xruns are really hard on low latency
<abogani> rlameiro: Could you test 2.6.37-lowlatency also, please?
<rlameiro> 12 xruns in 1 minute at 8 ms.... unacceptable...
<rlameiro> abogani, sure :D
<abogani> rlameiro: Thanks :-)
<abogani> https://launchpad.net/~abogani/+archive/ppa/+sourcepub/1428989/+listing-archive-extra
<rlameiro> i have your ppa already
<abogani> ah ok
<rlameiro> abogani, there is no headers for it...
<abogani> rlameiro: grab those from previous link
<rlameiro> abogani, it depends on linux-headers-2.6.37.12 not linux-headers-2.6.37.12-lowlatency
<rlameiro> :/
<rlameiro> well abogani, i will try it later
<JFo> persia, did you see the 'Search for possible duplicate bugs when a new bug is filed' checkbox now available under https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/<pkg>/+edit for any value of <pkg>?
<JFo> wasn't reported anywhere that I have seen, but I think it was one we discussed before.
<persia> JFo, I didn't, but I'm all sorts of excited that it exists.
<JFo> :)
<JFo> I thought you would be
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-04
<ScottL> Alpha 2 includes the 2.6.38-rc2 kernel which is based on the latest mainline release candidate kernel at kernel milestone freeze kernel. This kernel update includes the official inclusion of the '200-line patch' which improves responsiveness for some workloads
<ScottL> that was posted about vanilla ubuntu alpha2 release
<ScottL> i wonder the the audio performance compares now
<ScottL> i really need to get a natty install stable
<ScottL> although there is now a bug for the kernel panic i've been experiencing : Bug #712082 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 712082 in linux (Ubuntu Natty) "Random kernel panic during boot" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/712082
<rlameiro> ScottL: another build?
<rlameiro> the build i tested today was with 38-1
<ScottL> rlameiro, don't think another build has come done, maybe someone on the desktop team rebuilt vanilla ubuntui which included it
<ScottL> i would expect our alpha3 to include 38.2 or later then
<rlameiro> I wonder if they will spin isos for testing
<rlameiro> didnt get any email warning me about a new build...
<ScottL> !iso
<ubottu> To mount an ISO disc image, type Â« sudo mount -o loop <ISO-filename> <mountpoint> Â» - There is a list of useful cd image conversion tools at http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/CD_Image_Conversion - Always verify the ISO using !MD5 before !burning.
<ScottL> !testing
<ScottL> !iso testing
<ScottL> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/ubuntustudio/all
<ScottL> looks like the same test build right now, but also all tests are done :)
<rlameiro> yeap, same build
<rlameiro> :/
<ScottL> i read that from distrowatch, i  might send a plain email to them about ubuntustudio alpha 2 as well, just to push the PR
<ScottL> TheMuso, jono has an article in the latest Linux Format magazine, he mentions you by name to head the accessibility for unity
<ScottL> TheMuso, you're famous :)
<holstein> 09:41 < sobukus> hm ... I understand that network-manager can be troublesome with audio work ... but since there's a network  configuration dialog to replace that in studio, why does it not offer a "scan" function that just calls  ifconfig up $dev && iwlist $dev scan ./
<scott-work> paultag: how are you doing on the -controls update for checking the kernel?
<paultag> scott-work: OK. doctomo is really blocking me. I'm working on plan B now
<paultag> scott-work: I'll ping you by EOD on what the gameplan is. Failure is not an option
<scott-work> LOL, no stress about it, we have lots of time still :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-05
<holstein> sorry for the 4 line paste here
<holstein> BUT
<holstein> 08:52 < raboof> so newer jack versions use /dev/shm instead of /tmp, right?
<holstein> 08:53 < raboof> the realtimeconfigquickscan checks /tmp is a tmpfs (which is in-memory and thus produces lower latencies)
<holstein> 08:53 < raboof> do you think i should remove the check for /tmp being tmpfs from the rtconfig quickscan script?
<holstein> 08:54 < raboof> or are there still apps using /tmp for lowlatency temp files?
<holstein> anyone know the answer ?
<ScottL> persia, i did the aptitude update from maverick again but exluded the grub packages as well
<ScottL> persia, besides an initial panic directly after the update it hasn't panicked again for almost ten reboots
<ScottL> persia, i included this information in the bug report
<ScottL> persia, i didn't include any apport-collect or dmesg information at this time though, not sure if it will be helpful
<ScottL> i'm afraid that my comments in the bug report could have been a little more clear but i was rushing to get this done before the household woke up
<ScottL> holstein, i'm not any help for your questions, maybe someone else will be
<ScottL> and i'm really confused on one of the bugs filed against the ubuntustudio theme where he mentions that it is slow (redraws) and i can't tell anything from the screenshots either :(
<persia> ScottL, Cool!  That means it's clearly either kernel or grub.  You might get better input from folk on the bug, but my recommendation would be to try updating grub while it's stable, and see if that makes it unstable.  If so, you can be comfortable that it's probably grub.  If it's still stable, you're in good shape to hunt kernel issues.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2011-02-06
<ScottL> debian has been released :)  
<paultag> ScottL: or, as my dumbass spelled it "debain"
<paultag> http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<holstein> de-bain :)
<paultag> T-Pain
<paultag> :)
<ScottL> lol paultag, i know you!   well, i know your blog and your pictures, did not realize that was you :P
<paultag> ScottL: :)
<paultag> ScottL: what pictures?
<paultag> ScottL: also, thanks for reading :)
<paultag> Oh my face
<paultag> aye :)
<ScottL> paultag, the little picture in the corner, yeah that one
<paultag> ScottL: yeah, I'm that little ass :)
 * ScottL is tired and going to bed
<paultag> can't even spell debian, christ
<paultag> ScottL: night!
<ScottL> goodnight all
<ScottL> lol
<astraljava> Hey guys, is Ubuntu (Studio) installable on new MacBook Pros at all?
<holstein> astraljava: i have had bad luck with macbook installs
<holstein> BUT that is not the case for everyone
<holstein> i think i have a 2,1
<holstein> old white macbook
<holstein> you can try a vanilla live CD
<astraljava> holstein: Thanks. Problem is, I don't have one available. Thinking about getting one, though.
<astraljava> Just had jussi01 over, he said people have had success with them.
<ScottL> that's cool astraljava that you have jussi over, i wish someone was close enough to me to do the same :)
<holstein> astraljava: ive heard great things
<holstein> my isolated bad scenario shouldnt be a factor
<astraljava> ScottL: Yeah. :) He was passing by with his wife. We watched Chelsea-Liverpool game together. :D
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-30
<len> Todays DVD iso fails to allow me to connect to a wireless network. I'll see what the installed version does.
<len> Todays iso problems:
<len> wireless networking is broken.
<len> /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop missing (no X..lightdm)
<len> Pulsejack won't pass audio. audio/video player in play mode but time not advancing.
<len> jack still no RT
<holstein> len: thanks!
<len> have copied https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Workflows/Audio to dusk so I can compare work flows to available applications to look for missing apps.
<len> (I was hoping not to have to do that but with no net connect...)
<len> First I had better file a bug report or two.
<micahg> len: that file isn't provided by anything in the archive at the moment
<len> Which file?
<micahg> /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop
<len> OK. I thought something had been done to correct that. A different version of the package.
<len> The size of pages in ubiquity has been corrected and I can see the buttons.
<len> Bug #923582 has been reported for no wireless connect
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923582 in network-manager (Ubuntu) "wireless networking has no authorization" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923582
<ScottL> micahg, i have tested -default-settings, -look, and -icons, and all work now
<ScottL> (after adding Replaces: xubuntu-default-settings)
<ScottL> i'm wondering if we should add the 'ln -s /usr/share/xgreeters/lightdm-kde-greeter.desktop /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop' line to ubuntustudio-default-settings, micahg, before you sponsor that package
<micahg> no, that's supposed to be provided by the greeter, not the DE
<len> So then, is xubuntu having the same problem then?
<micahg> idk, you'd have to ask them, I haven't had an issue
<len> One of the comments on the bug report was:
<len> Are you calling /usr/lib/lightdm/lightdm-set-defaults in your postinst for your lightdm theme? That's generally what needs to set the session and greeter.
<len> That should have been in quotes BTW
<len> I'll reboot and try it.
<micahg> yeah, we should be
<ScottL> TheMuso, have you had a chance to look at the kernel?
<micahg> ScottL: are the other packages ready for me to upload in the morning?
<len> Ok, I'm back. The "/usr/lib/lightdm/lightdm-set-defaults" thing does not work.
<len> I should obviously try an xubuntu install to see if their's is ok.
<len> I went through the work flows page for audio.... first question: are all of those for real?
<len> or are some of them whims of thought?
<len> Anyway, Audacity I have already mentioned.
<len> Master an album asks for GCDMASTER (I wish) but I think Ardour/brasero/cdrdao while less easy to use can be (for now) substituted
<len> Sequencing music using MIDI - linux sampler, Xsynth, whysynth seem to be missing, but there are lots of software synths included... change the work flow to not mention these and to mention those that are available.
<len> Notating a Complex Composition - Lilypond, Frescobaldi missing
<len> Experimental Synthesis Composition - CSound, celia missing, but as the workflow is based only on these apps, the workflow could be removed... personally I think this would be a good one to keep.
<len> Live Coding - ChucK missing, same as above... workflow and app are one.
<len> The rest are similar missing mixxx, xwax, rivendell, IJDC and darkice
<len> I think there needs to be a dividing line between things we want included for 12.04 and things we may wish to add in the future.
<len> Scottl astraljava Which work flows are valid?
<len> Probably too late to answer.. sorry.
<len> Just looking at The main workflow page it calls all of the above 12.04 apps. Lots missing.
<len> I'll have to go through the video, graphics and photography another day.
<len> the Package Selection Development page linked from the workflow page is outdated.
<ScottL> micahg, ubuntustudio-look, ubuntustudio-icon-theme, and ubuntustudio-default-settings are ready to upload
<ScottL>  
<ScottL> micahg, i remember seeing a question about icons themes as well...
<ScottL> micahg, i question if we (the team) will ever be in a position to sustain our own icon theme again, so
<ScottL> micahg, i would say we probably should just base ourselves on elementary (or some theme thereof)
<ScottL> micahg, so i would suggest that our icon package is superfluous and any required settings can be done with -default-settings
<scott-work> can someone do a test so cjwatson can see about getting the rt privileges working in the live dvd?
<scott-work> if you have an install without jackd, just install jack
<astraljava> I can do that, but I need to zsync first, and then burn a DVD.
<astraljava> So, takes a while.
<scott-work> astraljava: cool :)
<astraljava> If someone has an existing install, please take on the task for quicker results.
<scott-work> astraljava: cjwatson says that he would like the casper.log file
<astraljava> Sure thing.
<scott-work> but he also says he thinks he has already preseeded the 'user in the audio group' issue and thinks it should be working
<astraljava> I'll join with you on #ubuntu-devel soon.
<scott-work> and he thinks he has fixed the jackd configure issue
<astraljava> Ok.
<scott-work> cool
<scott-work> astraljava: so, i think three things are needed for now....
<scott-work> 1. specifically check if user is in audio group (both in live and install)
<scott-work> 2. check if /etc/security/limits.d/audio conf exists or is it /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disbaled (1)
<scott-work> 3. get the casper.log for cjwatson
<scott-work>  
<astraljava> scott-work: ACK
<scott-work> (1) note that i _think_ jackd copies the /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disabled originally and then only renames it (sans .disabled) if the question is answered affirmatively
<scott-work> astraljava: thank you for your help :)
<astraljava> No worries, I'm in this, too, you know. :)
<astraljava> scott-work: We're pretty huge again. I gotta look into what's bloating us now.
<astraljava> 1954MB
<scott-work> astraljava: hehe,i know...but i feel bad when i instigate stuff and then i'm not the one doing the work
<astraljava> Oh c'mon, you can't possibly do it all. :)
<scott-work> astraljava: hmmm, let's look after we get cjwatson his information though if you don't mind, i would really like to get things squared away (re: rt) before A2
<astraljava> scott-work: Yeah, we're not in a hurry with that, and I will definitely wait until after A-2, in order to not break the image.
<scott-work> thanks :)
<astraljava> But I can investigate. :)
<scott-work> i would like to do a bit of PR for ubuntu studio 12.04 A2
<scott-work> this is the first "official" build of a live dvd for us
<astraljava> Right.
<scott-work> i usually try to send an email to distro watch, but i think it would be worth it to hit up others like linux outlaws podcast, open source musicians podcast, and a few blogs that i know about (even webup8 and OMGUbuntu)
<scott-work> along with ubuntu weekly newsletter (you hear that holstein ;)  )
<astraljava> Heheh. :) I hear ya. But OMGubuntu, really? :D
<scott-work> a lot of people look at it (i think)
<scott-work> knome: i'm sorry, but i didn't touch the website this weekend (between my inadequacies in packaging / coding and honey-do's)
<scott-work> however, this week i will focus on the website in the evenings leading up to this weekend, hopefully this will be the completion date
 * scott-work painted a bathroom amongst other activities this weekend
<astraljava> scott-work: No tiles?
<scott-work> no, but my wife has a bunch of shite hanging on the walls that needed to be taken down and then put back up :P
<scott-work> our ceiling are 14' as well, so i had to get more than just the step ladder
<astraljava> Quite tall!
<scott-work> but this was the 1/2 bath under the stairs so not much room in there with an 8' ladder (which couldn't get very close to the corners because of the toilet) and lots of fun was had :P
<astraljava> I can imagine. :)
<scott-work> eh, maybe it's 12 foot ceiling, but it's defintely not the usual 8 foot for sure
<scott-work> if i remember i'll measure them tongiht so i'm complaining accurately from now on ;)
<scott-work> i'm wondering if kate stewart is still around :/
<astraljava> Yeah, usually over here it's that 8' as well.
<scott-work> not trying to start rumours, mind you
<astraljava> Haha! :D
<astraljava> *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge*
<scott-work> well, several weeks have seen the -release team meeting chaired by someone else and i haven't seen her online lately
<scott-work> could be vacation or even personal or sick time
<scott-work> but i liked her being there because she brought a lot of order to the process (i thought)
<astraljava> She does that, yeah.
<astraljava> We still don't have our own artwork?
<astraljava> scott-work: Live user is _not_ in audio group by default.
<scott-work> huh, tech news today is talking about ubuntu's HUD: http://twit.tv/show/tech-news-today/422
<scott-work> astraljava: i have calls out to several peoples for artwork
<astraljava> scott-work: The file is /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disabled
<scott-work> astraljava:  my feeling is that this will drag until the last month and i'll be the one knock something up again at the last minute and "fix" it
<astraljava> I will proceed to installing now, so that I get the log to Colin soon.
<scott-work> i just want three (or even two) new images :/  that's all
<astraljava> ubiquity crashed...
<astraljava> ubiquity, python-apt and python-apt-common are obsolete?!
 * astraljava collapses on the floor unconscious
<astraljava> It gets past that if I _don't_ try to update the installer.
<knome> scott-work, np. we made good progress on the xubuntu website so should have more time to work on the US website in the future
<scott-work> astraljava: i knew there was problem with ubiquity, but that sounds rather shocking
<astraljava> That was pretty shocking, wasn't it. :)
<scott-work> knome: again, i'm sorry about that, i got quite cross saturday evening because our arranged famility time began to drag on and on, it didn't help that the kids were misbehaving during that time 
<scott-work> s/famility/family
<knome> mmh
<len> scott-work: Did you see my comments back scrolled from last night?
<len> And are they ant help? No worries for A2 anyway.
<len> And I'm off to work, just wanted to make sure you had seen it.
<scott-work> heh, he left already
<scott-work> i think i did, and told cjwatson about some of them, but i'll check back again just to make sure
<scott-work> falktx: hi!  any progress on the ubiquity plugin
<knome> does "ubiquity plugin" have sth to do with installing alternative "tasks"?
<falktx> scott-work: not yet, sorry
<falktx> (hey all)
<scott-work> knome: aye
<astraljava> o/ for falktx 
<knome> ok. we need that too ;)
<knome> hai falktx  :P
<scott-work> knome: cjwatson (or pitti or someone) corrected me that it was a "plugin" rather than a "patch"
<knome> i understood stgraber created that
<astraljava> Nice, ubiquity crashed, again.
<astraljava> scott-work: Just to calm your nerves, Kate has been spotted. :)
<scott-work> yay!
<knome> is scott-work having a crush?
 * knome hides
<astraljava> That's what he wanted to hide, too. *smirk*
<knome> hehe
<scott-work> haha, you guys are funny
<scott-work> actually i wanted to ask a question about the upcoming UDS and realized that she also hadn't been in the previous two release team meetings 
 * scott-work just realized that astraljava and cjwatson talked quite a bit in #ubuntu-devel and is reading through it now
 * scott-work also likes to talk about himself in the third person :P
<micahg> scott-work: we said I could stop the Thunar po files from being installed in ubuntustudio-default-settings, right?
<scott-work> micahg: absolutely!
<micahg> ok, thanks
<astraljava> scott-work: others: Yeah, for further monitoring, two bugs were filed; bug 923810 and bug 923830
<scott-work> thank you :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923810 in casper (Ubuntu) "preseeding passwd/user-default-groups is ineffective" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923810
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923830 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity crashes on ubuntu studio live-dvd 20120129" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923830
<scott-work> astraljava: i saw that, that you as well :)
<scott-work> i'm glad we have cjwatson to "read the animal entrails" and figure out what is going on, i certainly wouldn't have been able to do so
<scott-work> i like it when cjwatson says, "it's probably something arcane"
<astraljava> Hehe.
<scott-work> i think you guys are faking me out with kate, probably one of you logged in with "skaet" because she hasn't responded to me yet ;)
 * astraljava laughs maniacally
<scott-work> lols
<micahg> scott-work: should I remove all the Thunar files from the settings package or just the .po files?  there's an rc file as well
<knome> astraljava, so when you logged in as skaet, did scott-work tell you dirty things??
<scott-work> micahg: our goal is to use nautilus as a file manager, so i would say that we can remove all thunar files
<astraljava> Why do you think the laughter was maniacal?
<micahg> scott-work: ok, thanks
<knome> astraljava, because you told him dirty things back?
<knome> ;)
<micahg> could someone check the text I changed on the ubuntustudio-icon-theme branch please?
<astraljava> micahg: A moment, I'm on it.
<micahg> I assume you want all those packages I was working on to land before alphs2, right?
<astraljava> micahg: Looking good. Yes, I think that would be desirable.
<astraljava> Uh oh... three minutes?
<micahg> ok, I got an exception to go past the freeze for the US specific packges
<astraljava> Thanks!
<micahg> I assume you're not backporting ubuntustudio-look all the way to hardy, right?
 * micahg wants to drop an old conflicts/replaces
<astraljava> No, I don't think so. :)
<micahg> ok, I think I"m ready with everything except the meta
<astraljava> Do you need info regarding that?
<micahg> no, just time which I'm short on :)
<astraljava> Yeah. :-/
<micahg> astraljava: I'm also swapping in elementary-icon-theme for ubuntustudio-icon-theme so we can drop the empty package after alpha 2
<micahg> in ubuntustudio-look I mean
<micahg> is that ok also?
<astraljava> micahg: Yeah that's good, thank you!
<micahg> I hope I got that maintainer script right :(
<micahg> this stuff really never belonged in the -meta package at all IMHO
<len> I'll find out tomorrow.. Hoping networking is fixed today.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-01-31
<len_> Todays iso is a bust. Networking still broken, Install broken.
<len_> Ubiquity says the install is finished and when I reboot i get no os list. just binkin' cursor.
<len_> None of the install logs seem to have been written to the drive either, so I can't find out what happened. I guess I will have to try again and copy the logs from memory to a disk.
<len_> Something is failing with the install/updating of grub.
<ScottL> len_, cjwatson says that tomorrow's image should be better, but there is still an issue of the pre-seed happening after the install which is a ubiquity bug
<len_> Do I still file the bug report? The networking bug is a big one. No wireless connect.
<len_> Sorry, ScottL ^^
<len_> ScottL: filed Bug #924064 on install fail.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 924064 in Ubuntu "ubiquity crashes on 12.04 alpha install" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/924064
<ScottL> len_, sorry, i was getting daughter to clean room and cleaning dishes, i think astraljava already filed a bug for the ubiquity crash
<micahg> ScottL: sorry, I accidentally uploaded ubuntustudio-default-settings as me instead of you
<len_> Scottl: I think his is slightly different...
<len_> When I filed mine it didn't pull up any list of close bugs
<ScottL> micahg, i'm not worried about it, i'm just worried about getting the packages upload :)
<len_> It seems to be saying the packages are not there, but when I look at the iso  find them
<ScottL> this is astraljava's bug:  bug 923830
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923830 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "ubiquity crashes on ubuntu studio live-dvd 20120129" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923830
<ScottL> len_, can you check if they are duplicates, if so mark one of them as duplicate?
<len_> it seems to me his is only if he clicked on the upgrade ubiquity link.
<ScottL> oh, okay :)
<ScottL> thank you, though :)
<len_> ScottL: Looked at both bug reports side by and they are two different versions of ubiquity and the contents of the installer debug file are different too.
<scott-work> TheMuso: any progress on checking the kernel?
 * scott-work is starting to get nervous about this :/
<astraljava> Hmm... yeah, A-2 on Thursday already.
<falktx> astraljava: hey
<astraljava> falktx: Howdy!
<knome> hmm. anyone willing to work on the ubuntu studio installer slideshow?? :)
<knome> holstein?
<holstein> knome: yup
 * astraljava whistles innocently while walking away
<holstein> knome: what do you need from me?
<holstein> im preparing for a rehersal right now, but im going to be done in 30 minuts or so, and i'll have some time :)
<knome> holstein, can you list things that you want in the slideshow?
<falktx> astraljava: do you know what to do for the ubiquity plugin? I'm completely in the dark...
<holstein> knome: tbh, id be fine with one static image
<holstein> or the slides from your WP thing
<holstein> was that your WP thing?
<astraljava> falktx: Not really, I never did find the time when I was supposed to, and then set it aside when Scott told you started working on it. But I can have a look.
<knome> holstein, yyp.
<knome> holstein, okay, i'll copy those.
<knome> holstein, can you at some stage check the content?
<holstein> knome: i like those, and i think that would give us a consistent look
<holstein> otherwise, i could try and fake what our theme will be, and get some appropriate screenies
<falktx> astraljava: I feel kinda stupid... it probably is easy, I just don't see it
<knome> holstein, i'll have to see how to incorporate the background images to the slideshow. the space is more limited there
<astraljava> falktx: Heh, yeah. I get that at work a lot. :) No worries, we can figure it out. :)
<knome> holstein, so actually, shots might be better
<holstein> knome: i could try and chew on that over the next few weeks
<holstein> ask scott-work what our theme will be like
<knome> right...
<holstein> and go from there
<falktx> astraljava: thanks! Currently I feel like if I keep trying I'll only get more frustated
<holstein> knome: whats our timeframe?
<astraljava> falktx: I know the feeling. :)
<knome> holstein, deadline is UIfreeze @ Feb 23
<holstein> knome: thats doable
<holstein> knome: let me get back with you maybe early next week
<holstein> see how far ive come
<knome> ok, thanks
<astraljava> falktx: I got a feeling that we should first concentrate on the ubiquity/plugins/ stuff. We can use examples from edubuntu on that one, and I'm looking at them right now.
<knome> astraljava, can you keep xubuntu in your mind too? :)
<falktx> astraljava: many thanks man, you deserve a medal!
<astraljava> knome: Let me practice with ours, first, and then I can do it for Xubuntu. Can you make some sort of a task of it for me? Do you have any trackers for such?
<knome> astraljava, sure, just a sec. what's your lp username?
<falktx> better, an ubuntu trophy!
<astraljava> falktx: Nah... I'm only just getting into this stuff. I have been away from the dev stuff for way too long. Taking the final steps now. :)
<astraljava> knome: same as nick.
<knome> astraljava, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-xubuntu-ubiquity-application-sets
<astraljava> knome: Excellent, thanks!
<holstein> knome: question... size? format?... can i give them to you ready to drop in with text on them?
<holstein> if i wanted to get one of the current slides... where would that be?
<holstein> i could just copy that
<holstein> as far as style, etc...
<knome> 440x370 if we use the same as in xubuntu slides
<knome> just provide me with the shots + text
<knome> i'll handle the rest
<knome> if you want to "cut" windows from the right+bottom edges, then use 450x410
<knome> let me post you some examples
<holstein> so, just give you an image, and what text i want, and you'll do the overlay? or you want me to go ahead and add the text?
<knome> just a sec
<knome> holstein, see: http://temp.knome.fi/ubuntustudio/slideshow/
<knome> holstein, look at abiword_slide.png first
<knome> holstein, i need the title + text + shot
<knome> holstein, (menu "paths" are included in "text", if you want those)
<holstein> hmmmm
<knome> holstein, if you want a shot like abiword, which is cut from right+left, it should be 450x410
<holstein> just when you think something is going to be easy ;)
<knome> holstein, if like "desktop_slide.png", gimme 440x370
<knome> holstein, do you want me to clarify something?
<holstein> knome: so, im going to give you want i want for a title, and what text i want, and a screenie
<holstein> and you put it all together?
<knome> yes
<holstein> OK
<holstein> now its back to something i can do... 
<knome> ;)
<knome> i'll naturally tweak the background image and stuff to fit ubuntu studio a bit better
<knome> don't worry about that
<holstein> when i saw those buttons i said "dammit"
<knome> heh ;)
<knome> well, the slideshow jquery handles most of that
<holstein> scott-work: ping
<scott-work> holstein: pong
<scott-work> holstein: the theme should look exceptionally like xubuntu's now
<scott-work> perhaps tomorrow's image, maybe today's image
<scott-work> holstein: you can read the guidelines linked in the roadmap wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Roadmap) for specs on the ubiquity images/text
<holstein> scott-work: so.. our theme
<holstein> whats the plan?
<holstein> i want to kind of fake that for some screenshots
<holstein> i dont think its as big of a deal just getting windows images
<scott-work> holstein: the -default-settings, -icon-theme, and -look packages that micahg helped me upload set the theme
<scott-work> holstein: they should be in today's image possibly, but most certainly in tomorrow's image
<knome> scott-work, right, i didn't catch you had a draft for the slideshow too ;) we can use any other layout too, but i think 1 shot per slide is quite maximum, taking into account that the slideshow window should fit in the resolution...
<micahg> scott-work: I hope everything is working right ;)
<knome> if not, you can just try the xubuntu image ;)
<holstein> scott-work: cool :)
<astraljava> knome: Are you suggesting us joining forces and projects? :D
<knome> lol, no.
<knome> i'm just trying to steal all the possible workforce from US.
<astraljava> That's fine. We're leeching at full speed from you guys, too.
<knome> yeah ;)
<charlie-tca> milestone testing for alpha2 today and tomorrow. Is anyone able to run the US images?
<astraljava> knome: Well, actually, if I do this ubiquity thing for Xubuntu, then I'm practically one of 'you', right? :D
<astraljava> charlie-tca: I will, for sure.
<knome> astraljava, sure! ;)
<charlie-tca> great! I will run what I can, but it is going to be a time battle here
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Absolutely. Don't worry about us/US, you got your hands full with Xubuntu.
<astraljava> charlie-tca: But thanks for all support, anyway!
<astraljava> Are the images up, btw.?
<astraljava> Seem to be.
<astraljava> zsyncing now.
<charlie-tca> yes, I show the images dated 2012-01-30 in the iso tracker
<scott-work> charlie-tca: i'll be testing as well
<scott-work> charlie-tca: i guess i need to resubscribe the to the test since they moved to the new tracker
<charlie-tca> That helps. Usually want up to 5 tests on each one
<scott-work> anyone have the link handy for the new tracker?  is it more than an ip yet?
<charlie-tca> My email still works telling me the images are up. But I might have resubscribed last time
<charlie-tca> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/206/builds
<charlie-tca> but it took me three times to get the thing up
 * scott-work has a series of meetings to go to and probably will only be online spotty until mid-afternoon....i greatly dislike bloody meetings
<astraljava> scott-work: We don't have any test cases up, yet.
<astraljava> I will head on to -testing to find out why.
<charlie-tca> after I logged in, it won't show me any tests first
<astraljava> Oh?
<scott-work> crap, that might be a left over from us not wanting to test A1
<scott-work> astraljava: please talk to someone about it
<charlie-tca> No, it wouldn't show anything
<astraljava> scott-work: Yep, I will.
<charlie-tca> astraljava: you do
<charlie-tca> try going to the home page and picking alpha2 again
<charlie-tca> ah, crap
<astraljava> charlie-tca: I just did, went all the way up to the starting page.
<charlie-tca> sorry. I see it now. 
<astraljava> That's fine, I'll be talking about it now.
<charlie-tca> They put the image on but no tests required, huh?
<charlie-tca> it them in #ubuntu-release for that. 
<astraljava> Oh ok, I'll ask there as well.
<charlie-tca> If you don't get an answer in a couple of minutes, try stgraber directly in -release. 
<astraljava> They're busy, I'm sure they'll react soon enough. :)
<charlie-tca> yup
<charlie-tca> jibel got you covered
<astraljava> Yep, thanks.
<astraljava> micahg: If you have time at some point to explain (and try to make me understand) the ~ubuntu-branches/* stuff, I'd be thrilled! :) Currently I'm under the assumption that they are created from other branches, but if so, then I don't understand where the edubuntu ubiquity/plugins/ stuff reside.
<micahg> astraljava: that's a team placeholder for the lp:ubuntu/foo stuff
<micahg> since branches are team owned, not project owned
<scott-work> astraljava: the blueprint (https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-p-ubuntustudio-livedvd) has the link to the plugin directory i believe
<scott-work> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/edubuntu-live/precise/files/head:/livecd/ubiquity/
<astraljava> scott-work: Can you tell me the branch that I would then re-branch for US?
<astraljava> Cause I sure don't.
<astraljava> can't*
<astraljava> micahg: So, some team relating to edubuntu owns the branch lp:ubuntu/edubuntu-live, and I need to create lp:ubuntu/ubuntustudio-live somewhere, is that so?
<micahg> astraljava: no, the lp:ubuntu/foo branches are created on upload
<astraljava> Right. I'm really stumped as to where I could find the original source branch that holds the ubiquity/plugins/ stuff, then.
<micahg> astraljava: ask stgraber?
<astraljava> micahg: Ok, I will. Thanks for your help!
<astraljava> scott-work: AFAIUI, I'm now creating the ubuntustudio-live package, basing it from lp:ubuntu/edubuntu-live branch. Let's see how it works out.
<astraljava> scott-work: There's not that much work, but I need to go through all of the files, to make sure none of the edubuntu stuff is left.
<scott-work> astraljava: cool, thanks!
<astraljava> scott-work: ailo: len: holstein: ISO tracker has test cases now, so LET'S GO! :)
<astraljava> I'm personally just waiting to sync my .ogg's, so that my listening is uninterrupted while testing. :D
<len> astraljava: just got in the door and went through the above. I'll start DL.
<astraljava> len: Excellent! Thanks! :)
<len> astraljava: maybe not... it is still the jan30 iso which is broken. Xubuntu has a new one but we don't
<astraljava> len: Damnit, you're right. One second. Err... well a couple.
<astraljava> Yeah, sorry folks. No ETA at the moment. Carry on with your previously scheduled programme.
<astraljava> At least 4 hours, still.
<scott-work> astraljava: 4 hours until the next iso is ready?  is that because someone is respinning it?  if so, is the respin for a particular reason?
<astraljava> scott-work: _At least_ 4 hours. And yes, there's a new kernel upload on the way,
<len> astraljava: So Xubuntu will get a new one too? Or is that our kernel?
<astraljava> len: We don't have our own, yet.
<len> Ok, I'm DL Xubuntu Jan31 so I will know if any problems I find are unique to US.
<astraljava> len: Perfect. Thanks!
<len> astraljava: I had most of the xubuntu alt iso so I DL that first. So far it seems to have the same wireless auth bug as the US has since jan29 (and jan 30)
<len> We need someone else to test the wireless stuff so that the bug can be confirmed.
<holstein> :?
<holstein> :/
<holstein> i cant til maybe tomorrow
<holstein> ill check in then though
<len> Anyway, I am installing Xubuntu jan31 alt while xubuntu live DL while waiting for US to be published.
<len> holstein: thnks
<len> wlan connect is a big deal for me.
<holstein> len: well, some might disable it, and i do on my studio rigs, but if it ships, it should work, or at least be able to work
<astraljava> len: Alright. But in all fairness, the comparisons should be made against their desktop image, as that's the equivalent of ours, really.
<len> Its downloading
<astraljava> holstein: Tomorrow's fine. The release of A-2 is on Thursday.
<len> I had the alt from when I was comparing to our alt so zsync was quick, live is still an hour away.
<astraljava> Ahh... ok, sorry. :)
<len> Weird, It looks like a dhcp problem... same dhcp server for wired or wireless, wired works wireless doesn't. Wireless seems to use a different dhcp client.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-01
<len> Nope not dhcp, I can set it up static and it says it is connected, but I can't ping anything... like the gateway.
<len> Anyway, the xubuntu live cd has the same problem with the wireless networking
<astraljava> Strange.
<astraljava> I will test it on my laptop, just the live session though.
<micahg> len: is it ath9k?
<ScottL> i'm still waiting for the new studio iso
<len> Sounds right
<len> Let me bring it here.
<micahg> len: is your wireless driver ath9k?
<len> micahg: what is the easy way to tell?
<micahg> lshw -C network
<len> micahg: I see ath9k in the syslog
<micahg> len: yeah, so the new kernel update broke it, another new kernel was uploaded today to fix the issue
<len> Ok, should I change the bug report from two days ago to reflect that it uses the ath9k?
<micahg> bug 923512 was what was fixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923512 in linux (Ubuntu) "ath9k wireless stopped working after kernel upgrade to 3.2.0-12" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923512
<len> Ok, I'll mark mine as a duplicate of that then.
<len> I'm just doing a live install of xubuntu. It is stalled right now because it is trying to download more packages :-P
<len> However, a quick point for whoever is doing our install slide show. Try to make it not version specific.
<len> Xubuntu's slide show (maybe 3rd slide in?) shows an Email message saying how good Xubuntu 11.10 is.
<astraljava> len: They usually are, intentionally. And updated quite late in the cycle, too.
<len_> ScottL: I downloaded and installed xubuntu. (we didn't get anything to install today)
<len_> They don't have /usr/share/xgreeters/default.desktop either.
<len_> But lightdm still works.
<micahg> len_: take a look at the postinst and postrm in xubuntu-default-settings
<astraljava> I see. Yeah, that should be an easy fix.
<astraljava> All those files will require a heavy face-lifting anyway, as we're not going to use Thunar anymore, IINM.
<len_> Ja, but it is easier to test things if lightdm shows up.
<knome> astraljava, huh? why no thunar? :P
<astraljava> knome: WASN'T ME!!
<astraljava> Talk to Scott.
<knome> :<
<astraljava> I would have no objections to Thunar. In fact, I rather like it.
<knome> so what are you going to use then? nautilus?
<astraljava> And it's partly why I will continue using Xubuntu on the laptop.
<astraljava> Yeah.
<knome> ugh
<knome> congrats for selecting a lighter OS then
<knome> ;)
<astraljava> From the ones currently available, it suits my work flow best.
<knome> we need to stop making the arch-motion with the xubuntu burndown
<knome> http://status.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-precise/group/topic-precise-flavor-xubuntu.html - see ?
<astraljava> Heh. Interesting.
<astraljava> ScottL: Will you update the us-default-settings files, or should I take it on my TODO list?
<knome> i think i'm off for today
<knome> need to do some work tomorrow...
<knome> :/
<knome> see you!!
<astraljava> Later.
<ScottL> astraljava, i can do it, but i'll probably do it after A2 though :/
<astraljava> ScottL: Ahh... yeah. I think we had this discussion already. :)
<len_> There is a new US version... Time to download...
<ScottL> ooooh, going upstairs then to start downloading as well :)
<ScottL> i'm downloading 32bit because i suspect others will focus on 64bit
<len> I have no such animal. So I will do 32 as well.
<len_> Ok, booted todays live dvd.
<len_> Live user is in audio group.
<len_> installed user is too.
<len_> /etc/security/limilts.d/file is still disabled
<len_> lightdm still not working (I think we knew that)
<len_> lightdm background now "surprise pink".
<len_> bug 923512 is still there. I guess the kernel patch didn't make it.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923512 in linux (Ubuntu) "ath9k wireless stopped working after kernel upgrade to 3.2.0-12" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923512
<len_> Bug #923582 has been marked as a duplicate of bug 923512
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923512 in linux (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #923582 ath9k wireless stopped working after kernel upgrade to 3.2.0-12" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923512
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923512 in linux (Ubuntu) "ath9k wireless stopped working after kernel upgrade to 3.2.0-12" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923512
<len_> This was fixed earlier today, but I don't know that the new one reached our DVD iso.
<len_> Kernel is still 3.2.0-12
<astraljava> Hmm... no one's filled QA results thus far? QA meeting in three hours, I'd appreciate some info, folks.
<holstein> astraljava: :/
<holstein> i cant do it til much later
<holstein> i plan on having a tech evening though
<astraljava> holstein: It's fine. I think Scott and Len tested last night, but I wonder why there are no results from those.
<astraljava> I'm doing an install now, the live session (on amd64) seemed to work ok.
<holstein> i like this http://spreadubuntu.org/files/Branded-eternalstudio-wide.png
<holstein> its got a little "kid" vibe to it that im not crazy about... but its slick and clean
<scott-work> i haven't tested yet, i only downloaded the 32 bit image
<scott-work> i will test tonight however
<astraljava> Ok. Live session sort of works for amd64. I could play music, for instance, from a HDD. I could run others applications, too, and internet works. I could _not_, however, install applications to the session.
<astraljava> And the installation fails.
<holstein> interesting...
<scott-work> i have a question:  is there another reason that the images may be rebuilt for A2?
<scott-work> if so, i'll try to get the lightdm fix into the image then
<scott-work> maybe micahg can answer this?
<scott-work> is there still the issue with the kernel regression and wireless?
<charlie-tca> Something in casper is being fixed, and a respin talked about in #ubuntu-release
<astraljava> Yeah, but they only limited it to alternates.
<charlie-tca> desktop images only. Alternatives don't use casper
<astraljava> The ath9k issue didn't make it, I assume.
<astraljava> Ehh... sorry, you're right.
<charlie-tca> np
<astraljava> Erhm... no, skaet explicitly said "looks like we need to rebuild all alternates".
<astraljava> So maybe not about casper, then.
<charlie-tca> these testing days are enough to mess anyone's mind up
<charlie-tca> eally?
<charlie-tca> I missed that one
<astraljava> [17:30] < skaet> stgraber,  looks like we'll need to rebuild all the alternates (including server),  edubuntu dvd, kubuntu dvd - have I missed some?
<astraljava> 1730 UTC+2
<micahg> scott-work: you can get your image fixed if you like
<micahg> how bad is it?
<astraljava> micahg: I should be able to install packages in live sessions, right? (/me is a n00b when it comes to ubiquity usage)
<micahg> sure
<astraljava> Ok, then it seems I ran into a bug, which I have to report.
<scott-work> micahg: i am talking about fixing the lightdm issue where it prevents x from starting on the install (i believe)
<charlie-tca> astraljava: both geany and gedit installed here. did not run update though
<astraljava> charlie-tca: Thanks!
<astraljava> scott-work: They're talking about needs for respins on -release now. Could you please join the discussion?
<scott-work> astraljava: okay
<scott-work> although i'm not sure wehre the conversation is about studio :P
<astraljava> [18:59] < slangasek> cjwatson: the most recent builds I did should already have the ath9k fix landed on any  livefses, if I didn't screw it up - so perhaps that means ubuntustudio doesn't care  about respinning?
<astraljava> I told you were half-way wanting to include the lightdm fix, so wasn't sure _when_ we would want it.
<scott-work> astraljava: is the lightdm something you can do tonight, like now?
<scott-work> otherwise if we are waiting on me to get home tonight and do this....
<scott-work> i'm not sure i want to make everyone wait until tomorrow just for a fix
<astraljava> I can start working on it as soon as I get all bugs filed on our images for A-2.
<astraljava> But I'm not sure what are all of the fixes needed for it. Currently there seem to be lots of tweaks for Thunar. I suppose we can drop all of those now, right?
<scott-work> astraljava:  are you comfortable understanding what needs to be done? 
<scott-work> hehe
<scott-work> i can look at them shortly and see what i _think_ is needed
<astraljava> That'd be great, thanks!
<astraljava> QA meeting at the same time with Xubuntu-devel. /me crashes into tiny bits
<scott-work> i hope that these are changes that were made the xubuntu package recently, otherwise they should have been included already
 * charlie-tca crashes too
<knome> astraljava, charlie-tca: should we move the meeting next week one hour later or earlier?
<charlie-tca> later
<astraljava> I'm fine with whatever.
<knome> i will sort that out - later it is then :)
<astraljava> Thanks! :)
<scott-work> astraljava: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/precise/xubuntu-default-settings/precise/view/head:/debian/xubuntu-default-settings.preinst
<scott-work> the last bit of code is calling the lightdm reconfigure, but the concerning issue is that it is using a "previous version" number to qualify if the reconfigure happens
<scott-work> oh, wait, i think it's seeing if it's the current version
<astraljava> scott-work: not now, there's a meeting going on
<astraljava> :)
<scott-work> hehe, no problem
<knome> two meetings
<knome> ;)
<scott-work> sorry to all xubuntu people
<astraljava> Yup. Two meetings, -testing, -devel and -release channel monitoring. I'm going nuts!
<astraljava> (yeah I know, what do I mean _going_)
<astraljava> scott-work: The meeting's over.
<astraljava> But really, I'm not sure whether we want to take a risk for A-2 with any further updates.
<astraljava> Apparently the deadline is 0300 UTC.
<astraljava> That's not very far away either.
<charlie-tca> I got a good time to be done with all testing by 1400 UTC
<astraljava> Oh.
<astraljava> What did you say about 0300 UTC, then?
<micahg> I think the 0300 time might be to take an update for a respin
<astraljava> Or did I misread that?
<astraljava> Yeah ok.
<charlie-tca> I was guessing
<astraljava> New images up, make sure you are not using the outdated ones when you do A-2 testing!
<astraljava> meh... we still get alsa-tools-gui installed, and it includes envy24control. mudita24 isn't pre-installed for the live session.
<astraljava> I'll pick it up on my TODO.
<ailo> jackd2-1.9.8 is in Debian testing but no changes to use of audio group
<ailo> I expect they will change the group name
<ailo> for the file /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
<ailo> They might even include a post install script for administering group membership
<ailo> But, I guess that won't happen for this release
<ailo> So, no changes from before
<astraljava> Ok, reports for amd64 done. Live session works, installation fails. If someone could do the i386, that'd be great. Remember to report them in the iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/ Thank you!
 * astraljava goes to bed for a couple of hours
<astraljava> Oh, and the Version for test cases is now updated, so it points to the correct images, too.
<ailo> ?? I was a member of audio group by default after installing Debian
<ailo> I'll have to investigate if that was by default or not. I didn't do it manually anyway, and I'm not sure if I rebooted after installing jackd
<ailo> In which case jackd might have done it
<ailo> Anyway, I'll have a look tomorrow or some other day
<len> DL new feb 1... old one (before 0100) still had old kernel and network trouble.
<len> Live looks pretty good. RT is missing, but same in install. Installer didn't crash.
<len> One thing with the live session I thought I should comment on though... It was said that everything should work on the live session.
<len> For some apps this doesn't make sense. For example ardour is pretty useless without disk space.
<len> Even to start an ardour session directories have to be created and as far as I know audio is recorded straight to disk.
<len> The live session should therefore come with some way of mounting disk space that is obvious to the newby.
<len> The user should be made aware of these requirements.
<ailo> len: What you need to do is mount a physical disk and save your session there
<ailo> It makes no sense to record into RAM
<ailo> Either one which you have in the machine or an external one
<len> That is what I am saying
<len> The idea was presented that everything should work as is on live.
<ailo> Are you saying you can't mount your harddrive from the live session?
<len> The user should know that is not really the case for disk intensive apps
<len> I can mount my hard drive, but does the new user trying things out know that?
<ailo> Then they don't know much
<len> From windows world maybe?
<ailo> I mean, everyone who uses Ardour or eqiuvalent are pretty well aware of where the files end up
<ailo> The only thing I can think of that would be possible to do is to add a script for the ardour starter, which checks if it is a live session, and if it is, it would sens a notify reminder that the session needs to be saved on a hard drive
<ailo> Even for windows users, who have been using audio software, the idea of using harddrives, internal or external is pretty well established knowledge
<len> ailo: then I would say the live session is fine.... once networking works, which I will find out in a few minutes when I get the iso to USB
<len> I just wanted to list that it was thought of. I won't loose sleep over it though ;-)
<ailo> I can imagine that even people who are well aware might make a mistake of course
<len> So long as they figure it out on their own woth out a bug report.
<ailo> You see the home folder and you don't come to think that it's not really a hard drive
<len> At least not a very big one...
<ailo> realtime still doesn't work on the live session right? Or has that changed?
<ailo> I guess you said that already
<len> Wasn't last night. I'll find out on this one
<ailo> len: I was surprised to get realtime with Debian just before
<ailo> I'll need to see how it happened
<ailo> I never added myself to audio group
<len> I wasn't aware we were supposed to fill out qa till the A2 was out. Gotta find it.
<len> Last nights live/install had the user in audio.
<ailo> len: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/milestones/206/builds
<scott-work> ailo: len:  cjwatson pointed out that ubiquity was having problems with preseeding at the correct time, which may be effecting the jackd package install
<scott-work> my guess is that if you look at /etc/security/limits.d/ directory you will see the audio.conf.disabled file
<len> scott-work: yes
<scott-work> my belief is that jackd install it as .disabled and then sees if it was answered to install -rt privileges then renames the file to audio.conf
<ailo> Right
<scott-work> a bug has been filed (thanks astral.java) about ubiquity after discussion with cjwatson
<len> Ok... off to install land.
<ailo> scott-work: Confirmed. jackd installs audio.conf.disabled when realtime was not chosen
<ailo> Debian Wheezy kind of rocks
<ailo> Fast, and I'm not missing nvidia drivers even
<ailo> Gnome3 as default now
<ailo> Not fully implemented, but good enough for usage
<len-live> ath9k bug 923512 is fixed on todays iso.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 923512 in linux (Ubuntu) "ath9k wireless stopped working after kernel upgrade to 3.2.0-12" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/923512
<len-live> audio:x:29:pulse,ubuntu-studio
<len-live> ubuntu-studio@ubuntu-studio:~$ ls /etc/security/limits.d/
<len-live> audio.conf.disabled
<len-live> :P
<len-live> video player is missing files (codecs) but downloads and installs them ok without user interaction beyond oking.
<len-live> pulsejack still hangs player. Stopping jack lets player play.
<len-live> Is there a bug for that yet? seems to me I had trouble with the bug tracker when I tried and never got back to it.
<len-live> installed minitube with synaptic. Success, but even though there is a desktop file in /usr/share/applications, it doesn't show up on the menu.
<len-live> Runs fine from terminal though.
<len-live> double click on install ubuntustudio icon. No user feedback that my clicking did what it was supposed to.
<len-live> no busy mouse pointer, or anything else. When installing from USB stick there is not even some form of visible accessing disk activity
<len-live> It appeared the installer had failed to start.
<len-live> Hmmm, the installer seems to have gone to "La-la land"
<len-live> Says configuring target system, but no target disk activity for 5min or more.
<falktx__> I think the installer is broken at this point
<falktx__> at least I got that idea from some ubuntu changelogs
<falktx__> len-live: have you tried a ubuntu install? (the unity-one)
<len-live> falkx__: not for a long time, and then it was an alt.
<len-live> 12.04 around alpha1
<len-live> Turned out not too stable. lots of crashes... seems US had the same problem at the time.
<len-live> I thought maybe the reason the installer stopped was because I switched to a console and back a few times... tailing syslog
<len-live> I was seeing frame buffer errors
<len-live> falktx__ Opps spelled it wrong ^^
<falktx__> I always install via the alternate cds, I don't use live-cds for install
<len-live> falktx__ US no longer has this choice
<falktx__> :(
<ailo> len-live: Have you tried installing right from the menu, before trying it out?
<len-live> I was going to do that next.
<ailo> I never tried that. It guess the old installer is not there anymore anyway and it's still handled by ubiquity
<len-live> yup, 
<len-live> I'm going to go away so I can try the other install.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-02
<ScottL> umm, i'm not seeing any images linked to the test cases :(
<charlie-tca> I think they are still trying to figure out why, but you can grab them direct from http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/ubuntustudio/dvd/current/
<charlie-tca> That was brought up in -release already, and stgraber was trying to figure what to do with it.
<ScottL> charlie-tca, that's what i did earlier (get from cdimage), i mainly wanted to make sure it had been noticed already
<ScottL> charlie-tca, thank you :)
<ScottL> now to burn and test
<charlie-tca> you are welcome. Most of the testers left already, I still have about 6 hours to run, if I am lucky
<charlie-tca> (and, no, it ain't gonna happen tonight) :)
<ScottL> charlie-tca, just in case i didn't do this already...thank you for your help at UDS :)
<charlie-tca> You are most welcome. It is always a learning process for me. 
<charlie-tca> Did you apply for UDS-Q yet? 
<ScottL> charlie-tca, i want to talk to my wife first, and i'm waiting until she feel either indebted to me or generally in a good mood ;)
<charlie-tca> heh, That works too
<astraljava> ScottL: Yes, nusakan was having some problems finding our images. stgraber pinged others on that, cause had no privileges or something. Dunno what's the status now.
<Len_1204> Ok, booted in 1204... I was able to install with no network connect.
<Len_1204> Both install and try with net connect crash installer.
<ScottL> Len_1204, please be sure to report on the tracker, without completed (even with broken installs) tests the images risk not being released for further testing
<Len_1204> this bug is from last october. It fails to download the flash loader.
<Len_1204> apport did report it and said it was a duplicate.
<Len_1204> Thats how I know anything about it.
<ScottL> Len_1204, right, but make sure you mark your test in the qa-tracker, please
<ScottL> Len_1204, also, at some point in the near future i would like to pick your brain about why you are helping with ubuntu studio
<ScottL> Len_1204, like what keeps you interested, involved, coming back, etc
<ScottL> i would really like to find a way to interests others into helping and staying around
<Len_1204> I will report the problem I had the first time though. with consoles sending the installer hung. And I will do the qa too.
<Len_1204> I'm not sure really. Time of year is part of it. Not much outside stuff to do. May not see me for 12.10 ;-)
<Len_1204> This is the first project (with collaboration) I have been involved in.
<Len_1204> I am still learning a lot.
<Len_1204> ScottL: I wanted to report that it is possible to install here so that others can test more than just that the installer crashes.
<Len_1204> audio:x:29:pulse,test
<Len_1204> test@ustudio1204:~$ ls /etc/security/limits.d/
<Len_1204> audio.conf.disabled
<Len_1204> OK, QA time, C-ja
<astraljava> I don't know that command in emacs. Wonder what it does.
<len-nb> Help... QA. I am guessing... but not sure all bugs need to be numbers and not descriptions?
<astraljava> len-nb: Yep, numbers.
<len-nb> The instructions are not very clear.
<len-nb> Gotta find all the bugs and make some too.
<astraljava> You can file a bug about that. :)
<ScottL> i was hoping during next cycle we can develop better testing requirements
<astraljava> ScottL: Yeah. jibel already mentioned that.
<astraljava> ScottL: I might work up something for Alpha-3 even.
<ScottL> astraljava, how is the ubiquity plugin going?
 * falktx__ has a deja-vu
<astraljava> Didn't get much done today, busy with A-2 stuff (and some totally unrelated)
<astraljava> ScottL: But there shouldn't be much left, anymore. I can turn it on for review once the milestone hassle is over.
<falktx__> ScottL: I have a personal request to make
<ScottL> astraljava, that is absolutely incredible news!
<ScottL> falktx__, hi :)
<falktx__> ScottL: there are some svn packages in various PPAs (not just mine), that could make US metas be uninstalled
<astraljava> ScottL:  It wasn't that much, once I figured out what needs to be done.
<falktx__> ScottL: a simple depends "hydrogen | hydrogen-svn" will fix those
<falktx__> ScottL: is this ok to you?
<falktx__> I got a user requesting it now
<ScottL> falktx__, hmmmm, oh, you mean in our meta!
<astraljava> falktx__: That sounds unlikely. We will depend only on stuff that's in the official repos. IMHO, of course.
<ScottL> i thought falktx__ meant in hydrogen or such which really isn't only in our purview
<ScottL> astraljava, but if we used that in our seeds, would that be a problem?
<astraljava> Maybe I'm not understanding the issue right.
<falktx__> astraljava: some PPAs have package alternative that make US metas uninstallable
<falktx__> hydrogen-svn is one of then
<falktx__> blender25 was one too, on lucid at least
<micahg> those are the problems of the PPA maintainers, not the distro
<falktx__> the thing is, they are not official packages
<falktx__> micahg: yeah, but modifying US metas in a PPA doesn't sound good
<astraljava> I'm kinda leaning to Micah's side, here.
<micahg> if they're providing hydrogen, then their package should do the same regardless of source name
<falktx__> let me give the hydrogen example
<falktx__> hydrogen vs hydrogen-svn
<falktx__> the user has a choice to install the stable version or the unstable
<falktx__> here's the official Hydrogen PPA -> https://launchpad.net/~kxstudio-team/+archive/hydrogen
<micahg> right, so hydrogen-svn should really be hydrogen with a proper version, barring that, hydrogen-svn can Provides: hydrogen so as not to break the rest of the archive
<falktx__> micahg: I tried that myself, but that breaks re-installing regular hydrogen
<micahg> why?
<falktx__> because the package already provides it
<falktx__> it refuses to install it
<falktx__> if "Provides:" is not set, then it will install fine
<falktx__> but that breaks US metas
<ScottL> oh, the meta's are now recommends for 12.04
<micahg> no, the real package should take precedence over the virtual one if both are an option
<ScottL> i don't know if that was discussed yet or not
<ScottL> doesn't that mean that the meta's can be removed without any issue?
<falktx__> micahg: hydrogen is already a real package, there are not virtual packages here
<micahg> ScottL: you should only have a recommends on stuff that you want users to be able to uninstall in whichever meta it is
<falktx__> ScottL: perhaps...
<micahg> falktx__: hydrogen-svn providing hydrogen is a vritual hydrogen
<micahg> *cvirtual
<falktx__> micahg: then why does it fail? (or it did so in 10.04)
<falktx__> I had issues with hydrogen-svn has files that hydrogen package also has, and hydrogen is already installed
<micahg> falktx__: you could also install explicitly by version when you're reinstalling
<micahg> falktx__: that's what replaces is for
<falktx__> hm, doesnt sound very user friendly
<falktx__> micahg: anyway, this is just a request
<micahg> anyways, going the other way will break, you'd have to remove the hydrogen-svn and then reinstall hydrogen
<micahg> PPAs break distro packages quite often
<micahg> it's the nature of the beast
<astraljava> Isn't there an explicit PPA removal tool these days?
<micahg> yes, ppa-purge, in the distro since maverick
<astraljava> specific*
<astraljava> Yep.
<micahg> ah, it's in lucid-backports as well
<falktx__> micahg: the current way it auto-removes hydrogen for *-svn, or auto-removes *-svn for hydrogen
<astraljava> Yeah. I mean, adding all those new PPAs for our metas whenever they appear... that's not going to last.
<micahg> falktx__: so, the solution is to version the PPA package properly using the hydrogen name, then using ppa-purge from backports if one wants to remove it
<falktx__> micahg: no, because the PPA has updated versions of it, so the user will be back to an old version of hydrogen when trying to remove hydrogen-svn
<micahg> falktx__: what's the issue?
<falktx__> in this case the PPA provides
<falktx__> both
<falktx__> micahg: installing hydrogen-svn auto-removes hydrogen, and that removes US metas
<micahg> right, the PPA is doing it wrong, if the packages aren't coinstallable, changing the name doesn't help
<falktx__> the name change is the allow an user to select which version to install, within 1 PPA only
<micahg> right, but it breaks the distro, so, the choices are to use 2 PPAs for this like other projects, or break the distro
<falktx__> not if US could support it
<falktx__> it's a tiny detail
<micahg> yes, but what does US say to the next 100 people with the same request, it becomes unmanageable quite quickly
<falktx__> of course
<falktx__> that is just a request
<micahg> still, it's not my call, but that's MHO
<falktx__> hydrogen is a bit more important than usual because it's installed in US by default, and that PPA links to the *officially* supported hydrogen PPA
<astraljava> It's the pain of the maintaining such a beast. Like I said, the PPAs are unstable. By quality as well as by numbers. It'd be a tough chore to keep it up-to-date.
<micahg> hydrogen is a good candidate for backports if someone wants to work with me on it
 * micahg is also a member of ubuntu-backporters :)
<astraljava> Sure, why not.
<falktx__> I would
<astraljava> Scott has made a point out of that repeatedly.
<falktx__> I plan to stay on 12.04 for a while
<micahg> we can take the latest stable as long as the build and run time dependencies are met
<falktx__> and 2 people report it stable, I think
<micahg> there's a new tool in 12.04, requestbackport, it'll help file these requests
<micahg> it's in ubuntu-dev-tools, requirements for backports are build/install/run
<micahg> so that might alleviate the problem as well
<falktx__> hm, nice
<micahg> oh, also, there has to be an upgrade path, either through backports or to the next release, so as long as we have testers, it should be fairly easy to approve hydrogen
<micahg> or any other leaf app for that matter
<falktx__> micahg: but I guess new apps are still hard work, right?
<falktx__> specially if they are not yet in the stable release
<micahg> falktx__: what do you mean?  no, that makes it easier as it usually doesn't have any reverse dependencies
<falktx__> micahg: I mean if we want a new app into 12.04, after being released
<micahg> yeah, through -backports it
<micahg> s usually not an issue
<falktx__> micahg: but that needs to go into 12.10 first, right?
<falktx__> otherwise it's not really a "backport"
<micahg> correct
<micahg> but backports might open pre-release which would mean not waiting
<micahg> it's still best to get it in Debian first though if possible
<len-nb> Having trouble finding bug numbers for bugs I know are there.
<ScottL> len-nb, it's good to link bugs, but this testing is more about validating the integrity of the _iso_ rather than finding, filing, and linking all the bugs
<ScottL> if you can find the bugs, link then...but don't let not finding the bugs keep you from completing the qa report
<len-nb> I think I will put the rest in comments then.
<len-nb> There is a bug for the installer crashing and apport pointed it out to me but then I have done two installs since and I can't find it.
<astraljava> bug 870643
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 870643 in flashplugin-nonfree (Ubuntu) "package flashplugin-downloader 11.0.1.152ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: wget: unable to resolve host address `archive.canonical.com'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/870643
<len-nb> Thanks, now I need to edit the report.
<len-nb> next question... I've marked the live session as failed but not sure if that is right.
<len-nb> There are problems with the live dvd, but they are just the same ones as the install. Not a problem unique to the live session.
<astraljava> len-nb: Did you know there are links to the test cases in the tracker, specifying the requirements?
<len-nb> Are we supposed to only check those things? Those requirements are pretty sparse.
<len-nb> astraljava: I would think we should be looking for US specific needs
<len-nb> Also if I do things exactly as that says it would just fail at bug 870643
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 870643 in flashplugin-nonfree (Ubuntu) "package flashplugin-downloader 11.0.1.152ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: wget: unable to resolve host address `archive.canonical.com'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/870643
<len-nb> and nothing else would get tested.
<astraljava> len-nb: We will be adding US specific cases later into the cycle. That's it for now, though.
<len-nb> astraljava: Is there a way to edit things? I will leave the install as is, but the live session could be considered as a pass. I haven't tried persistence as I was making my usb as like a dvd as I could... readonly
<astraljava> len-nb: Yeah... I regarded the live session as a pass, despite the fact that I didn't do persistence either.
<len-nb> astraljava: I can't find any way to edit my results, so it says fail though I did explain in comments.
<astraljava> len-nb: Let me check.
<astraljava> len-nb: There should be the icon of a pencil on the far right of that row.
<len-nb> Got it astraljava Ive set that to a pass.
<len-nb> How come i can only see my results?
<astraljava> Are you looking at i386? I did amd64.
<len-nb> OK
<astraljava> Thanks a lot for these!
<astraljava> At least one of each is done for this milestone.
<astraljava> That's good enough at this stage of the cycle.
<len-nb> astraljava:will there be another image tomorrow that needs testing or is that it for now?
<astraljava> len-nb: I believe that's it for now, we'll continue with dailies until the next milestone.
<len-nb> ok
<astraljava> ScottL: I'm assuming they'll want decisions regarding our Alpha-2 soon on -release. It's your call, of course, but I would at least suggest to mention and underline the fact that it isn't installable 100%, so only use it as a live session tool, a preview snapshot if you will.
<astraljava> I'm going to take a nap now. Back in a few hours.
<scott-work> == Ubuntu Studio ==  '''New Items'''  * New XFCE theme / UI / default setting - requesting user feedback on these items to -devel mailing list  * New "desktop" applications for new typical desktop uses - requesting user feedback on these choices  * Ubuntu Studio is now a live-dvd, alternative installation image is phased out  '''Known Problems'''  * live user does not have access to rt privileges  * installed user doe
<scott-work> please ignore that detritus
<scott-work> astraljava: are you around?
<scott-work> didn't len say that he had a successful install?
<scott-work> at least ubiquity didn't fail i mean?
<scott-work> did anyone?
<astraljava> scott-work: Hi. I don't know, judging from the results in tracker, ubiquity crashes for him, too.
<scott-work> astraljava: i told #ubuntu-release that it woudl be prudent not to publish the A2 image then
<scott-work> :(
<astraljava> Yeah. Well, I wouldn't want _users_ face the problems. Experienced power users can try it out, but we should just concentrate on polishing it for a quality beta-1 release.
<len> scott-work: install completes only if there is no network connection.
<scott-work> len: interesting :/
<ailo> len: Wireless?
<scott-work> and funny that you typed that just as i sat down from a whole freaking day of meeting and am now at my desk again :P
<ailo> Ah, network connection..
<len> The ubiquity bug has to do with downloading. So if there is network it doesn't try.
<len> Wireless does work now, but I can not connect by not giving a wep key
<len> Oops that should be no network.
<len> ailo: I noticed that the flash player won't download from the firefox somethings missing/install plugin dialogue either. It seems to get part way through and then sit there forever till cancelled. Same bug.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-03
<len-nb> No new iso today? Build errors? or to give time for A2 testing?
<knome> A2 is released already
<astraljava> len-nb: I don't think they are spinning images right now. It'll probably resume back to normal in a couple of days.
<len-nb> I thought that might be the case.
<len-live> running Firefrox on the live DVD, go to youtube... play a video, video area says you need a plugin, bar at top has button "install missing plugins" but video plays anyway, just fine.
<len-live> Plugin manager says there are no plugins...
<astraljava> That's sometimes a very weird feature, I must admit. But I recall seeing some bugs mentioned about it on -testing perhaps.
<astraljava> It's still alpha, granted. :) I bet it'll be fixed soon, for the beta-1.
<len-live> I am able to install the plugin though (todays iso live) I couldn't two days ago.
<len-live> After install it is like normal
<astraljava> Oh that's good news!
<len-live> I'm not sure that was clear, Install means install the plugin while running live. I have yet to try the os install.
<len-live> Thats next.
<astraljava> Ahh...
<astraljava> Yeah. I didn't see the bug with the status changed to Fix Released, true.
<len-live> Install complete with networking enabled... looks like flash downloaded ok
<astraljava> Great news!
<len-1204> As of todays iso. install with network connected works.
<len-1204> lightdm still needs link added.
<astraljava> Yeah, it's not fixed, yet.
<astraljava> I'll try to make it this weekend.
<len-1204> But the install is. I don't know why a fix has not been announced.
<len-1204> I only keep saying because Scott asked me to "monitor" it.
<astraljava> Someone just hasn't updated the tracker.
<astraljava> len-1204: You can add a comment on bug 870643 with your experiences.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 870643 in flashplugin-nonfree (Ubuntu) "package flashplugin-downloader failed to install/upgrade: wget: unable to resolve host address `archive.canonical.com'" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/870643
<astraljava> It will help the devs, if they need testing to verify the fix, or something.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-04
<holstein> eternalstudio is the only wallpaper i think fits our vibe at all
<holstein> unless we want to go in another direction entirely
<knome> holstein, like http://temp.knome.fi/xubuntu/precise_wall/wall-9-preview.png ?
<holstein> knome: hehe.. that would be a different direction for US for sure :)
<knome> you could also ask me to draft something
<holstein> knome: you can.. but i think its going to be challening enough when it comes down to which of these 3
<holstein> i was kinda hoping we could just stick one in real quick
<holstein> i was actually hoping to just put the old on in
<knome> heh
<knome> we can create something really basic too
<knome> with the logo or so
<holstein> old one*
<holstein> knome: i like https://dl.dropbox.com/u/7001421/Perfect%20Studio%20Wallpapers/updated-eternalstudio-1680x1050.png OK
<holstein> i just wish the logo had more of an attitude
<holstein> and i *hate* having the name
<knome> hmm.
<knome> :)
<holstein> though, my current wallpaper does
<knome> not my fav, but ok
<Len-live> persistence has issues... could be the installer. The installer hung on me. Re booted- got x and an xterm (from last session) and ps shows the installer running.
<holstein> persistence?
<holstein> i dont see the point in that myself
<holstein> i always just install to the media
<holstein> i see no benifit other than having the main system read only 
<Len-live> Ja, I thought I should try it. When  last tried to just mount a drive I could not write to it.
<holstein> Len-live: you are right.. folks'll want to
<holstein> thanks for checking
<Len-live> I think ubiquity is overly sensitive to net problems. Everything needed to get a running system with x is on the iso so ubiquity should install that before worrying about about stuff from the net. the first update will bring it all in anyway.
<Len-live> I think trying to restore a session with the same apps it was shutdown with is a mistake too. I rebooted because I had problems... rebooted to the same problems already running :/
<Len-live> Time to try again.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2012-02-05
<len-1204> We seem to have lost audio group on install today.
<len-1204> I am having second (maybe third and fourth) thoughts about installing with the network connected.
<len-1204> ubiquity (and the alt installer for that matter) seem to deal badly with intermittent net service.
<len-1204> There seems to be no ability to skip over a trouble download. There also seems to be no way of telling the person installing something has gone wrong.
<len-1204> I have had the installer hang or crash on me do to download problems 3 or 4 times now.
<len-1204> I am about to the point of recommending netless install.
<len-1204> This would be a problem for things like ubuntu desktop where they are trying to keep things to cd size.
<holstein> len-1204: fine with me
<len-1204> US has all the needed stuff on the DVD so the only thing we get from net is flash. (goody :-P ) 
<len-1204> Whats the default CLI editor? Nano no more?
<holstein> len-1204: should be nano i say
<holstein> maybe its just a glitch
<len-1204> holstein: I would think that is part of the base install, but all I could find was vi :/
<len-1204> I have to think to hard to use vi...
<holstein> len-1204: hehe.. i have to RTFM each time ;)
<astraljava> It sounds like a problem. Probably the reason is a missing 'ubuntu-standard'. Can you check?
<astraljava> Hmm... formal meeting in T - 13 hours.
<astraljava> Probably need to go over the agenda.
<holstein> i cant make it :/
<holstein> gt a concert
<holstein> got*
<astraljava> holstein: Ok. I have a few topics in mind, so can you go over the agenda and write your opinions prior to that?
<holstein> maybe
<holstein> ill give it a look
<holstein> im with you guys though!
<holstein> i still plan on testing
<astraljava> I'll let you know in here when it's done from my part.
<holstein> and helping get some screenies for the installer
<astraljava> Good, good.
<len-1204> Synaptic says ubuntu-standard is not installed astraljava
<len-1204> no telnet either..but ssh is, different package I guess
<astraljava> I think we need to very carefully go over the seeding once again. List the important and essential packages that are missing.
<len-1204> astraljava: even inthat package nano is only a recommends.
<len-1204> Most of it's depends seem to be there.
<astraljava> holstein: len-1204: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Meetings/2012February5
<astraljava> Any other things to discuss?
<astraljava> We're running out of time before Feature Freeze sets in.
<astraljava> So if anything's urgent, we gotta step on it now.
<astraljava> len-1204: Yeah but installing the seeds uses recommends these days, so that _should_ be in.
<len-1204> If it goes in the recommends should be speced too. It looks like a lot of work flows are getting dropped.
<astraljava> len-1204: What does that mean?
<len-1204> The depends don't get nano for example.
<len-1204> nano is just recommended
<len-1204> There are a lot of apps missing to fill up the work flows.
<len-1204> I just looked at the audio workflows, not the video or graphics ones. But they are shorter.
<holstein> yup
<holstein> i was actually just trying to recruit a CAD guy :)
<holstein> we need more video folk
<len-1204> The audio workflows page has 20 work flows?
<holstein> yeah, its a bit all over the place
<holstein> i think the workflow thing has gotten too busy
<holstein> but it can be trimmed down
<holstein> and the idea is great
<len-1204> I do think there should be a recording program a little bit lighter than ardour though.
<holstein> sudo apt-get install ubuntustudio-pocasting
<holstein> len-1204: im still not sure why audacity is gone
<holstein> though it made sense at the time
<holstein> audacity seems like a no-brainer
<len-1204> I would think so.
<len-1204> holstein: I tried sudo apt-get install ubuntustudio-pocasting and also with the d but it says there isn't one.
<holstein> len-1204: oh.. sorry
<holstein> im just saying, hypothetically, that would be nice
<holstein> thats what the work-flows are about
<holstein> its a neat idea
<holstein> just a little busy
<len-1204> Nicer with a gui to deal with it.
<holstein> and you can never really please everyone
<holstein> its a general idea of what folks would want to use
<holstein> think of the MIDI one
<len-1204> For me, I would just rather install everything and use what I want
<holstein> that could pull in *so* much
<holstein> len-1204: i definitely want to clear out some cobwebs
<len-1204> It would need it's own menu
<holstein> len-1204: they are going in a dock i think
<holstein> AWN
<len-1204> I would like a cleaner menu.
<holstein> i plan on removing it ;)
<len-1204> The dock might be ok... but with my screen horizontal takes too much room.
<holstein> i like how xubuntu has a dock, but its just a panel
<holstein> not that i want that one either, but at least its not an extra package
<len-1204> As the screens get wider the height of things starts to matter
<holstein> i have a gnome panel with launchers on it on my audio rig
<holstein> thats down the side actually
<len-1204> like the install slide show xubuntu has goes right off the bottom of my screen.
<ailo> The "dock" in Xubuntu is really no different from a gnome panel
<holstein> yup, its just an xfce panel
<holstein> and it looks fine
<ailo> Just that it has become common to edit the panel properties to make it function more like a dock
<ailo> You could really have done that in Gnome2 as well
<len-1204> I shrink it, vertical it and stick it to the side..... ala unity...
<holstein> yup... i basically do
<holstein> i just have it on the side
<holstein> but, i dont use it much anymore
<holstein> i much prefer kupfer
<holstein> i dont really use a dock or a panel since that
<holstein> but, most folks want a dock or a menu
<holstein> and/or
<ailo> I hardly make any changes at all since installing Gnome3. 
<ailo> I change the wallpaper
<holstein> i like how clean my openbox setup is with no menu like that, and no dock
<ailo> Not that you can do much to change Gnome3 :P
<holstein> ailo: hehe... i was just typing a smart-ass message about that ;)
<ailo> I change the clock to 24h and make it show the date
<len-1204> Oh another thing to ask at the meeting is why the installer is no longer in the audio group. I thought we fixed that. That and no real time are probably bigger than a lot of other things.
<ailo> Yep. Those are essential if you want to call it a multimedia distro in my view
<holstein> i think those things are coming though
<holstein> the live CD is really new
<astraljava> len-1204: holstein: ailo: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/PrecisePangolin/MissingPackages   is also being linked to from the agenda
<holstein> astraljava: cool :)
<len-1204> On the install I can edit that stuff, but on the live I can't log out of the session and restart.
<len-1204> the lightdm stuff is still broke too.... more broken now as the background has vanished as well.
<astraljava> Ok, I made a few examples there, please expand the list as you find them in other work flows, too.
<len-1204> Also, the live dvd persistence setup seems to default to startup all apps where they were when you shutdown. Can that be changed?
<astraljava> len-1204: It is still broken. I'm going to work on it today. Will probably make it in Monday's or Tuesday's images.
<len-1204> If the installer hangs and you reboot you don't even get to the session before the installer starts again.
<astraljava> len-1204: That sounds like some session saving mechanism. You don't think users would want that?
<astraljava> That's strange.
<len-1204> As luck would have it I had an xterm running when it shut down too.
<len-1204> But I never got the menu bar or background or any of that.
<len-1204> The installer hung because my wireless cycled part way through the install.
<astraljava> len-1204: Yeah, that's unfortunate. You could file a bug about that, so we can keep track of it.
<len-1204> I did file a bug about the installer hanging. But I could add to it.
<astraljava> I have a hard time calling oneiric a recommended release. Going to change that on the wiki and replace it with lucid.
<astraljava> len-1204: Yeah a good idea.
<len-1204>  ;-)
<len-1204> I'd have to reboot though...
<astraljava> len-1204: Whenever, it's not too urgent.
<len-1204> I still have problems with foo yc20. Lots of xruns and nasty jackd reports
<len-1204> even after getting rt working.
<len-1204> misses key release messages... sounds real bad. does it work for anyone else?
<astraljava> len-1204: I suppose a bug report of that one is in order, too. Probably nothing we can do, but forward it to upstream.
<micahg> astraljava: so, about a gmusicbrowser backport, should be fine, one would just need to test gmusicbrowser and remuco-gmusicbrowser with it
<astraljava> micahg: Ok, thanks! Sounds good.
<micahg> astraljava: you want the new blender now, right?
<astraljava> I'm not a graphics guy, but I would assume as much, yes.
<astraljava> Does anyone remember the bug number for missing the desktop session in precise? My lp-fu seems to be rusty today.
<astraljava> holstein: Anything to say re: agenda?
<holstein> astraljava: nah
<astraljava> Ok.
<holstein> i think  len has the testing down
<astraljava> I noticed there were apps added to the page we talked about yesterday, but no additional work flows.
<astraljava> T - 15 for the meeting, anybody out there?
<knome> i'm *in* *here*
<astraljava> *pfft*
<knome> astraljava, is the meeting here or at #ubuntu-meeting?
<astraljava> Latter.
<knome> could lurk in for a while
<astraljava> Doesn't seem like there's anything lurk-worthy.
<knome> hehe
<astraljava> Oh well, snooker starts soon...
<knome> mmh.
<knome> and the news and sports
<knome> see you later :)
<astraljava> Later. :)
<len> Anything happening?
<len> ubuntu-meeting looks dead.... so does here.
<len> astraljava: later today, I will try installing all the missing SW to make sure it is installable and at least looks like it runs.
<len> I have only i386 machines, so I can't talk for amd64. Anything that doesn't work "out of the box" I would suggest removing that work flow for 12.04.
<len> Basically that is what Scott has said anyway.
<astraljava> len: Yeah, there's no one around for the meeting.
<len> I saw that.
<astraljava> len: I plan to install the daily as well, and have a look at the packages, too.
<astraljava> I can do amd64.
<len> Ok.
<astraljava> I'll also test the lightdm-greeter issue, I have the fix pretty much ready.
<len> If they load and run put them in.
<astraljava> But I don't know how long it takes to get it into the images.
<len> Sounds good
<len> It seems pretty quick... like next build.
<len> Anything that Scott has done has been. Anything that changes seeds goes quick.
<astraljava> Yeah, but I want someone more experienced to review it, first.
<len> That is not me.
<astraljava> I'm thinking Micah or Luke.
<len> I'm pretty raw
<len> Yeah
<len> Try foo yc20 on the amd64 maybe it works there.
<astraljava> Yep, I'll fiddle with it a bit.
<len> Maybe it likes lots of memory and I only have 1g
<len> But it is not usable on either of my machines
<len> If it was me, I would be trying lots of changes. It seems things are pretty automated and so long as you keep the old one around... if it fails is no big deal.
<astraljava> That's true, too.
<len> Gives me something to test ;-)
<astraljava> Yeah, I have 3GB, so we should see if it's that.
<len> Anyway, I'm supposed to be setting up to play, so I should go.
<astraljava> Ok, catch ya later then.
<Len-live> Live has audio group again... but no rt - audio.conf.disabled
<Len-live> Cool, pulse-jack bridging worked... not without trouble...
<Len-live> When i started jack, pulse died. jack showed no pulse. Restarted jack still no pulse. Started pulse mixer, pulse restarted and connected to jack.
<Len-live> Playing an ogg through audacious->pulse->jackd->speakers.
<Len-live> sounds like it may be a timing thing... jack has to be fully up and running before pulse starts.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-28
<ttoine> hello
<ttoine> zequence, ping ?
<ttoine> astraljava, ping ?
<astraljava> ttoine: pong
<astraljava> ttoine: Sorry, gotta run. Talk later in the afternoon?
<ttoine> astraljava, yes, sure
<astraljava> ttoine: On the other hand, do you have any specific issue? If you could state it here, I seem to be connected quite sporadically. :)
<ttoine> astraljava, oh, yes, I just would like to know if you still work on gcdmaster ?
<astraljava> ttoine: Ahh, that. No I haven't, but I do intend to. I've just had too many other pressing issues.
<astraljava> But it's an open project, so anyone can just go ahead and work on it. I'm sure the base hasn't been updated, I seem to recall it's quite a dead project. So fetching it in bzr should get you started.
<ttoine> astraljava, I am not skilled for that
<ttoine> But I think I will keep a 10.04 version of Ubuntu with Gcdmaster in order to burn some master cd from time to time
<astraljava> I've heard others do the same. :) I'll announce when there's some progress with that.
<ttoine> astraljava, ok
<ttoine> astraljava, it is not possible to just get the lastest sources from 2009 and package it in a PPA ?
<ttoine> hop
<ttoine> http://blog.ttoine.net/files/2013/01/Capture-du-2013-01-25-153511.png
<ttoine> first trials I have done : http://blog.ttoine.net/files/2013/01/Performance-MixBus.txt
<ttoine> zequence, ping
<zequence> ttoine: Hi
<astraljava> ttoine: I wouldn't think it'd compile anymore. I'm fairly sure the required packages no longer linger around. And anyway if they do, then most likely not in the too distant future they won't. So the porting to GTK3 libs is necessary.
<zequence> len-1304: So, what conclusion did you come to on 44.1 vs 48kHz?
<len-1304> zequence, There is not support upstream to make 48k the pulse default.
<len-1304> There have been more people who have fixed their sound by going 48k and the more documents I read the more I see 48K as the professional standard at least in the broadcast field.
<zequence> len-1304: You know what I found? qjackctl is being patched to use 44.1 instead of the original 48. 
<zequence> It's done in the packaging, evidently
<len-1304> However, with pulse fixed so it gives up the device correctly, there doesn't seem to be any problem with Jackd or jackdbus changing the rate to 48k
<len-1304> Is that debian or ubuntu?
<zequence> len-1304: I think Debian
<len-1304> zequence, What are the chances of changing that?
<len-1304> There is a sense that in the engineering community that the standard is 48k and a sense in the consumer market that the standard is 44.1k.
<zequence> len-1304: I've started communicating a bit with the Debian Multimedia Team, and already got the wrapper script for qjackctl removed
<zequence> As long as the arguments are good, I don't think anyone will disapprove
<len-1304> I found that almost all the downloadable media is 44.1k except for ripped from dvd video stuff.
<zequence> I'm going to look up all the --debug builds, and that should earn me some cred
<zequence> So, after that, I could bring up the samplerate thing
<zequence> I'm going to become a member, which will grant me access to the git repos
<len-1304> There are a number of threads in the LAU list that deal with sample rate.
<zequence> I'll be able to make changes directly then, but will of course discuss with the team first
<len-1304> I would suggest leaving pulse alone so long as we can get qjackctl to default to 48k.
<zequence> First day at school today. Started reading a book about computer hardware. One already knows 80% of it, but it's nice having the chance to be thorough
<len-1304> zequence, I have been reading the documentation for the mother board chipsets (intel ich6, ich7 etc.) They all assume default of 48k.
<zequence> ok
<zequence> Yeah, I've had the impression builtin audio usually defaults to 48
<zequence> Isn't it the DVD standard?
<len-1304> Yes.
<len-1304> 48k is the everything standard but for CD (44.1k) and blueray (192k)
<len-1304> One of the ubuntu devs says he has a USB audio IF that is 44.1 only, but I know of more that are 48k only
<zequence> len-1304: Would you like to try falktx app? It has some nice things in it. Would be good to give him some feedback, now that he's pushing it into Debian, and thus will be available to us also. 
<len-1304> MADI (AES10), S/PDIF (AES3, AES-EBU) and I think even ADAT are default 48k/24bit.
 * zequence looks for it
<len-1304> I have it on my 12.04 machine
<len-1304> It does a lot of what controls will do
<len-1304> I will add it to this machine too (13.04)
<zequence> I think it does well on controlling jackdbus. Some things are nice that they are integrated, like ladish. But, it's also a bit too custom in some ways, IMO
<zequence> I also feel it could be ordered in a nicer way
<len-1304> I think anything like this will end up too custom.
<zequence> Too many controls for noobs. Would be good to hide some into deeper layers
<len-1304> It will take some time of use and users says "can we do this?"
<zequence> I think what we are looking for is something simple
<len-1304> OTOH it is nice to be able to say "open this app go to this tab click on this"
<zequence> Yeah
<len-1304> We don't have anything right now... just cli for some.
<zequence> realtime administration is one thing that I really want to have. I've already prepared most of it for controls. Just need to start working on the implementation
<zequence> Well, we've gone through most of that
<len-1304> There seem to be some thing in cadence that are not finished too, like CPU governor setup.
<zequence> Yep. He mentioned it not being finished yet
<zequence> Well, I'm heading to sleep. later..
<len-1304> Bye
<len-1304> micahg, What ever happened to ubuntustudio-default-settings?
<micahg> hrm, I keep pushing it out of my mind :-/, keep poking me, I'll do it this week
<len-1304> Which day should I poke micahg 
<micahg> wed
<len-1304> Any particular time?
<micahg> nope
<len-1304> Thank you, I'll do it.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-29
<Lumpy> hello all
<Lumpy> len you about?
<Len-nb> u
<Len-nb> Lumpy, yup
<Lumpy> how ya been?
<Lumpy> is there an off topic chan?
<Len-nb> OK, tired the last few weeks
<Lumpy> or is chit chat kewl here as well
<Lumpy> i have been dead beat myself
<Len-nb> You can see a new channel open?
<Lumpy> yup
<Len-nb> Thats private
<contrapunctus> "I don't think ubuntu studio is even maintained. They just package a bunch of crap together and in theory would work. I don't think they do bug fixes or anything like that."
<contrapunctus> Lotion...plus...gauze... >_>
<contrapunctus> This was on a prominent Linux pro audio forum.
<contrapunctus> Can anyone comment on how accurate this is? o.O
<smartboyhw> hello all....
<contrapunctus> Hello again, smartboyhw ;)
<smartboyhw> contrapunctus, hello
<contrapunctus> saidinesh5: Mate, where you from?
<saidinesh5> hey contrapunctus..... i m from India....
<saidinesh5> ssup?
<contrapunctus> Me too :)
<saidinesh5> oh?
<saidinesh5> from?
<contrapunctus> Delhi ^^
<saidinesh5> Ah 
<saidinesh5> Hyd
<saidinesh5> ssup?
<contrapunctus> Didn't know there were other UbuntuStudio folks in India! :)
<contrapunctus> You a dev?
<saidinesh5> Ah well...... not of ubuntu studio.... i work on a different software
<saidinesh5> which i someday
<saidinesh5> want to get included into ubuntu studio
<saidinesh5> let me guess.... you stumbled across ubuntu studio from that coursera course? :P
<contrapunctus> Coursera course? O.o
<contrapunctus> Naw
<saidinesh5> Ah
<saidinesh5> it started right today
<contrapunctus> Wanted to stop using Windows...tried installing Ubuntu LTS (the very first one)
<saidinesh5> digital sound design
<saidinesh5> Aah
<saidinesh5> lol what do you mean by the very first one?
<contrapunctus> The first LTS
<saidinesh5> you mean the 6.04 or somethin?
<contrapunctus> Yeah.
<saidinesh5> O_O
<saidinesh5> where did you even get that DVD?
<contrapunctus> Real crappy choice for a beginner, abandoned it for AVLinux soon after
<saidinesh5> Ahh you mean back when you started.....
<saidinesh5> lol
<contrapunctus> Settled on Ubuntu Studio+KXstudio since the last few months
<contrapunctus> I got it off the internet, lol.
<saidinesh5> ya i guess i gave ubuntu studio a try back during 8.04 days i guess
<saidinesh5> Ah yes
<saidinesh5> KXStudio is quite nice.......
<saidinesh5> kudos to falktx
<contrapunctus> Hell yeah.
<contrapunctus> You do music as well? o.o
<saidinesh5> yep
<contrapunctus> Back to practice ^^
<smartboyhw> holstein, write me a testimonial at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/smartboyhw please:)
<smartboyhw> astraljava, could you also write one for me?
<Lumpy> hey holstein are there any requirement to join the dev team over there at launchpad?
<holstein> Lumpy: not sure
<zequence> Lumpy: Yes
<holstein> Lumpy: lets ask scott when he's around
<holstein> maybe zequence can do it?
<zequence> The dev team means you get access to Ubuntu Studio bzr branches, and a lot of other things. 
<holstein> Lumpy: im sure we can get you envolved
<zequence> You don't need that in order to help out with development though
<zequence> Lumpy: What is it that you are most interested in doing?
<Lumpy> i would certainly be willing to test things
<Lumpy> i already always report crashes and such
<Lumpy> if they are relaqtively stable i would be willing to go to nightly builds
<zequence> Lumpy: We don't have a procedure for that yet, but you are always welcome to install the development release
<zequence> And do test installs as well
<zequence> We don't really require doing install tests much right now
<Lumpy> okay, i will look into that in the next few days
<Lumpy> i need to get back to making nickles and dimes on the machine atm
<Lumpy> so no installs today
<Lumpy> but i am sure i can set up another partition
<zequence> As for individual applications, the desktop, and things like that, I guess it's good to just try things out, and if you find  a bug, report it.
<Lumpy> i think i have like six operating systems on the beast atm
<Lumpy> i use xfce for my desktop on my resource deprived machine
<zequence> I have one install of every 32 and 64 bit since 12.04, only for testing atm
<zequence> Plus a development platform, using Quantal
<Lumpy> I only have one 64 bit machine and it is an oddball
<Lumpy> a mac G5
<Lumpy> running xubuntu
<zequence> Lumpy: You don't need both. 
<zequence> I have all of those only because I need to test the lowlatency kernel every time I update it
<Lumpy> oh i didn't think that... just letting you know what i do have was all
<Lumpy> i don't run the low latency in studio atm
<zequence> Lumpy: You'd be fine with just the development release of Ubuntu Studio for whatever arch you have, currently 13.04 32bit
<Lumpy> but i do in tango studio
<holstein> is tango using our lowlatency kernel?
<holstein> PPC support is brutal
<Lumpy> i know that on the PPC
<Lumpy> it took me almost two weeks just to get something installed
<holstein> i was just explaing to someone what a drag it can be
<Lumpy> and i am not sure what kernel tango is using exactly
<holstein> had a G4.. a 700mhz.. i was just saying, move on and let it go
<holstein> you can dig a computer like that out of the trash these days
<Lumpy> 99% of the time the machine is running in your 12.04 with the generic kernel
<holstein> a 64bit G5 is a bit more of a toss up though
<Lumpy> i would have to boot the os and do a uname to be sure
<holstein> thats still got some life left
<Lumpy> it is one of the real early ones
<Lumpy> two single core 64 bit cpus
<holstein> i run one G4 X less and headless sometimes
<Lumpy> but it saves me about 30% on post production matters
 * Lumpy timed it with a stop watch and compared it to his 32 bit dual core intel
<zequence> Lumpy: Testing is actually very important for us. We need to catch bugs, and report them upstream much sooner, and more agressively than in the past
<Lumpy> i would be willing to do that
<Lumpy> and i would love to see if i can get this jack running on my PPC
<zequence> Lumpy: Won't work
<holstein> Lumpy: i didnt have very good luck
<zequence> jackd1, but not jackd2
<Lumpy> but that is not a real critical issue
<zequence> There's a bug in jackd2 that stops it from working on PPC
<Lumpy> it runs great on the dual core 32 bit
<Lumpy> brb
<zequence> I got an iBook3 a few weeks ago. Installed Debian. Managed to compile a -rt kernel for it. But, jackd2 didn't work
 * zequence is going running
<Lumpy> i wish i could run anymore
<Lumpy> i have to settle for walks 
<Lumpy> my back and knees won't take the running anymore
<zequence> Lumpy: If you like, i could introduce you to some of the structure we have for development
<zequence> Lumpy: We follow blueprints. A blueprint for us is sort of like a topic. Each blueprint has a set of work items that we try get done
<zequence> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Blueprints
<zequence> Lumpy: Here's an example of a blueprint on launchpad. It's called workflows, and is the root for all our workflows https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/topic-ubuntustudio-r-workflows
<zequence> You can click the clouds below to get to other related blueprints, up and down the tree of dependencies
<zequence> Lumpy: If you find something you feel you can do, just add yourself to the work item. If you come with ideas, talk with someone about it, or just add a workitem yourself. It takes a little time to get into managing that stuff
<Lumpy> i will look it over a bit later today or tomorrow
<Lumpy> unfortunately i need to crank out some online work to pay the bills
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-30
<smartboyhw> zequence, am I wrong or is it that whenever I am online scott-work is offline?:(
<len-nb> smartboyhw, Scott is hard for anyone to catch.
<smartboyhw> len-nb, LOL
<len-nb> still he is more active this cycle.
<smartboyhw> len-nb, and that is a good thing:)
<len-nb> micahg, this is the promised poke about our -settings package. I am sort of half way out the door. If you have questions I should be around about 2100 UTC (1300PST)
<micahg> len-nb: thanks, I'll try to take a look this evening
<zequence> smartboyhw: Have you tried any of the testing tools?
<zequence> UTAH is one
<zequence> There's another one. I've forgotten its name
<smartboyhw> zequence, uh?
<smartboyhw> autopilot?
<smartboyhw> autopkgtest?
<zequence> Yeah, autopilot
<zequence> smartboyhw: I think it would be good to do some automated testing for our default applications, and see if we can catch any errors
<zequence> I think some of them we never even open
<smartboyhw> zequence, OK. But since I'm a piece of crap in programming, you can try to do it:D
<smartboyhw> I'm still learning:P
<zequence> I see. Well, that is one quite important part for us to be better at. I shall add that on myself to get done
<smartboyhw> zequence, bzr branch lp:ubuntu-autopilot-tests if you want to play with it
<smartboyhw> zequence, if you want to merge it tell me (strangely I had merge rights since I was testcase admin)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-01-31
<len-nb> micahg, did we get to -setting?
<micahg> no :(
<len-nb> Ok I won't test then.
<micahg> len-nb: I'm sorry, I'll try to get to it in the morning, I've been running around most of the day
<micahg> len-nb: once I actually fix the history, I'll be able to update -settings quickly again
<ttoine> zequence, http://blog.ttoine.net/files/2013/01/Performance-MixBus.txt
<zequence> ttoine: I think it's too bad you didn't do tests with the Ubuntu Studio desktop as well
<zequence> And, personally, I find gnome-shell more interesting than the classical interface in this context as well
<zequence> ttoine: Did you get xruns at 1024 frames/period?
<zequence> There are so many variables between the systems too
<zequence> It's not possible to say it's the graphic card that makes the difference
<zequence> The only thing that is interesting I find is the big contrast in CPU usage on the first machine
<ttoine> zequence, no x-rub at all
<ttoine> run
<ttoine> It was not possible to test Ubuntu Studio on all pc: there was already a 12.04 LTS and I did not have the right to install something else
<ttoine> zequence, and yes, that's why I would be very interested to test with more nvidia videocards
<ttoine> http://blog.ttoine.net/2013/01/28/harrison-mixbus-et-ubuntu-12-04-chez-azarecord/
<ttoine> I did the tests for azarecord
<ttoine> they would like to be sure that Ubuntu was a good choice for a Mixbus workstation
<ttoine> they asked to stay with Unity in order to look like Os X
<ttoine> they didn't like xfce
<ttoine> f I have the possibility, I will continue to test this session on other pc, from different generation, and with different hardwares
<ttoine> I think that scott would be interested. any news from him ?
<zequence> ttoine: So, what you did was make sure Harrison Mixbus would function at all for Unity, basically?
<zequence> ttoine: I'm not sure what the purpose of the test was, and what you found from the results
<ttoine> zequence, XFCE was not the choice of Azarecord. So the purpose was to test wich other desktop was possible for production. Speaking a bit with the support of Harrison Mixbus team by mail, I learned that with Linux, it was very different depending of hardware and drivers (restricted, free, and versions)
<ttoine> So the aim was to test different cpu, different gpu and if possible different mix of cpu and gpu. And as it is very interesting, I think it would be great to test on other hardware (core i5, amd cpu with nvidia gpu, etc.)
<zequence> ttoine: So, what you did was basically make sure Mixbus would be able to start, and would not crash, and would run on Unity.
<zequence> The differences between the hardware are so vast, that it's impossible to make any conclusions based on which GPU or CPU
<ttoine> the matter is when if find someone with a computer running Ubuntu, It is always possible to get it for tests, a few time. But people don't let me install Ubuntu Studio. So I did the test starting from Ubuntu
<ttoine> zequence, at this time, it is not possible 
<ttoine> zequence, it was really considered to use gnome classic, actually
<zequence> I've actually stopped using proprietary drivers with Ubuntu now
<zequence> Both nvidia and ATI can do 3d graphics and HD video with the free ones
<zequence> ATI is more or less fully functional, but I do think one should take care with expensive cards, and make sure they don't overheat
<ttoine> zequence, what is strange, is that Mixbus uses cairo for rendering, and the harrison effects use OpenGL. and there are a lot of differences between gpu drivers. for example, the gui of harrison effects has a known display bug only with amd restricted driver. and harrison is aware that because a bug between cairo and nvidia restricted driver, Mixbus display is not stable when compositing is enabled
<zequence> nouveau drivers seem to be fully functional at this moment, but I'm not sure yet. 
<zequence> ttoine: Did you try with the open source driver?
<ttoine> zequence, the free driver of AMD doesn"t manage HD7000 at this time. If you look at my test, the amd A6 has an integrated HD7000, so compulsory to use the restricted driver at the moment
<zequence> Might be that 12.04 is not the best platform for the free drivers, don't know
<ttoine> zequence, even with the x-edgers ppa ....
<zequence> I didn't realize the logic for not keeping jockey in system settings for 12.10, until I actually tried the free ones
<zequence> I just played Halflife Beta on the Linux Steam client, using nouveau drivers
<ttoine> on my thinkpad, I did the test with the nouveau driver. It was simply impossible to use Mixbus with compositing enabled. The matter when using unity 2D or Gnome classic without effects is that when you change of windows, example form editing to mixer, there is a peak on the cpu, and so, x(runs
<zequence> Might be good of us to pass these things on to the developers
<zequence> We should probably add that to our testing routine, if we ever get one
<ttoine> the other matter with 12.10 is that compositing is not stable enough
<ttoine> I spoke of that with didrocks, he told me that it was not the aim for 12.10. it will be aim for 13.04
<zequence> Well, it's starting to look very promising for open source graphic drivers
<zequence> I would have thought what we have right now was impossible
<zequence> ..then, I don't know how those drivers work
<zequence> I'm going to work on sketching out some kind of barebone for testing
<ttoine> zequence, both amd and nvidia free drivers are made with the same framework, if I understand well. the difference is AMD provide infos, and nvidia let people do reverse ingeneering
<ttoine> it is clear that 13.04 will be a good test for a more open source Ubuntu, with less restricted drivers
<ttoine> zequence, http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ubuntu_1210_amdstock&num=2
<ttoine> test in october 2012, free against restricted driver with several amd gpu cards
<zequence> ttoine: Wow, still pretty big difference. I was running HF2 using free ATI drivers with full settings, and it went pretty well, using Wine
<zequence> HL2*
<zequence> But, I wasn't measuring frame rate, and the card was quite new and fast
<zequence> Plus, HL2 is not that new anymore, even if some levels do require a bit of power
<zequence> I put down some stuff here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Testing
<zequence> I think the best way to get continuous testing done on the full array of things we need to get tested, automated testing is the only way to get it done
<zequence> Structured manual testing for the ISO mostly
<ttoine> zequence, good
<ttoine> zequence, the matter of restricted against free driver performance is mainly for applications using OpenGL. At first, one could think about Blender
<ttoine> But even Ardour 3 will use Cairo and will be dependant of graphic performance...
<zequence> ttoine: It's not just a matter of how much CPU it uses
<zequence> It's also how much priority the drivers demand
<len-1304> zequence, do the drivers have options?
<len-1304> (the open ones)
<zequence> len-1304: I don't anything about the drivers. Just that some hardware+drivers seem to impact stability more than others
<zequence> stability being audio performance
<zequence> ..in this case
<len-1304> Maybe we should be asking questions of the open video driver authors about different use cases.
<zequence> I absolutely think it would be a good idea for us to report any problems we find
<len-1304> High speed video/gaming may not be the best for audio.
<zequence> And to make them aware of what we find important
<zequence> I don't think the aim for the free drivers is 3d gaming. I'm pretty sure they just want to make the drivers give the user full access to the cards functionality
<len-1304> Makes sense.
<zequence> high speed video for gaming could be == 3d modelling
<zequence> which in our case is mostly Blender
<len-1304> another topic :)  PA-jack
<len-1304> The web site for pulse says that it should be possible to pass the number of channels to use.
<len-1304> I would think for most uses 2 would be more correct than 7.1 plus extras.
<zequence> Yeah, with jack that would probably make most sense, most of the time
<len-1304> The default is to add as many channels as hardware ports
<zequence> the pa to jack module could perhaps be enhanced, and be made configurable
<len-1304> The web site does not give usage
<len-1304> module-jackdbus-detect
<len-1304> This module automatically adds JACK sinks and sources whenever the JACK server is started. For this to work, you need to use JACK 2, and enable JACK's D-Bus interface.
<len-1304>     channels
<len-1304>         The number of channels to create for both module-jack-sink and module-jack-source. If omitted, the sink will use the number of physical output ports and the source will use the number of physical input ports registered in the JACK server. 
<len-1304>     connect
<len-1304>         Takes a boolean value. If enabled (the default) PulseAudio will try to connect its ports to the physical playback ports of the JACK server. 
<zequence> Well, diwic (David Henningson) is the sole author of that module, so he would know
<len-1304> I have used the connect no option before with success, but the channels option is new
<zequence> I'm guessing he might have written that text as well
<len-1304> So it may use a different syntax than other modules.
<len-1304> load-module module-jackdbus-detect connect=no
<len-1304> seems to work
<len-1304> but channels=2 does not.
<zequence> I see
<ttoine> zequence, is there a kind of Ubutu Studio install with just the system, the tweaks and no applications ?
<zequence> ttoine: I would say, install ubuntu-minimal (network install, but don't install any desktop), then add the ubuntustudio-desktop meta. But, not sure if that actually is the close to or the same as what you get when installing from ISO
<ttoine> it depends id -desktop meta package asks for -audio, -video, etc...
<ttoine> zequence, in your automated testing, it could be interesting to have a score
<ttoine> at least audio score and graphic score (for 3D)
<zequence> ttoine: Installing the applications I don't think will affect the system performance in any way
<zequence> So, one might just as well just install the Ubuntu Studio ISO, if one wants the desktop and the settings
<zequence> ..user won't be in audio group, if installing ubuntustudio-desktop, but that much you know
<zequence> As for settings.. I'm not really on top of it. I think len-1304 added something
<zequence> Might get included if you install ubuntustudio-desktop, or the default settings meta, or however that works
<zequence> We should add the option of installing the workflows on our ISO. I'm supposed to investigate adding such a plugin to ubiquitity
<zequence> ttoine: the -audio and other workflows aren't dependencies to the desktop meta
<zequence> as they shouldn't be
<zequence> I'm going to get some sleep. Past midnight, early day tomorrow :)
<ttoine> zequence, ok. the only bad stuff with installing ubuntustudio-desktop is that it changes the boot and stop screen
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-01
<len-1304> zequence, version 3.0 of pulseaudio seems to fix the Jack startup bug.
<zequence> len-1304: Have you tried it?
<len-1304> zequence,  yes, from  https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-audio-dev/+archive
<ttoine> hello
<smartboyhw> hello len-1304 ttoine 
<len-1304> Hello
<len-1304> zequence, what I did fond however, is that even PA 3.0 does not allow setting channel numbers. That is coming though, the documentation follows git rather than release :/
<len-1304> *find
<Lump|AFK> morning len-1304 
<len-1304> Good morning. Lump|AFK 
<Lump|AFK> no mail delivery for you today len?
<len-1304> It is 630 am not yet.
<Lump|AFK> ic
<Lump|AFK> 930 here
 * len-1304 is at -800 from UTC
<Lump|AFK> so did i tell what my "synergy cursor problem" actually was?
<smartboyhw> Grrr I am at +800
<Lump|AFK> i am at -0500
<Lump|AFK> turns out the wireless mouse in the desk drawer in the other room that i haven't used in two years suddenly started interfering...
<Lump|AFK> i took two humble pills and disconnected the batteries
<len-1304> :)
<Lump|AFK> go figure eh?
<Lump|AFK> must of actived it when i moved the drawer
<len-1304> My Yf had one of those, she has given up on it.
<Lump|AFK> i like my track ball more than the mouse but i still use the wireless keyboard
<Lump|AFK> never ever had an issue like that before
<len-1304> in a studio wired remotes are nice.... esp. when you have more than one of the same equipment.
<Lump|AFK> how tough would it be to get two bluetooth headsets to connect to the same machine at the same time is what i am curious about
<Lump|AFK> would be nice to do the stream that way
<len-1304> That should not be a problem, they each have a unique ID kind of like an ether net MAC
<Lump|AFK> well, when the cash flow situation improves, i am going to try that
<len-1304> Audio in would show up as two non-sync streams that would have to be added to jack with alsa_in or the zita-ajbridge.
 * len-1304 is off to work
<len-1304> bye all
<Lump|AFK> hopefully the weather is better there for you than us here len
<Lump|AFK> have a great day
<scott-work> hello everyone, how is everyone?
<scott-work> i've been sick for almost a week :(
<scott-work> but i'm feeling much better now :)
<zequence_> scott-work: Sorry to hear that. 
<zequence> But, good to hear you're feeling better :)
<zequence> I'm pretty busy these days. Started an education this week, which is very much 8-12h a day for me, mor or less
<zequence> I put some time in between to work on other things
<zequence> I can work on Ubuntu stuff from there
<zequence> hmm, bought some music last week from Ubuntu One
<zequence> ..still waiting for it
<scott-work> errrr, that's not good
<zequence> I got the free 25GB deal though, which is a campaign thing
<zequence> if you bought one song, you'd get free 25GB streaming for half a year
<zequence> 30$ a year is not too bad. Might actually be worth it, I think
<zequence> One would just like things to work well
<zequence> It's sort of like market economy didn't win after all. The more tech, the less things seem to work proprerly. Remember phones that never failed? I'm sure we'll get there eventually, and all of us can stop bothering messing with 99% of the stuff we do now.
<zequence> ..referring to USSR products that often were not known for their quality
<scott-work> i usually purchase songs on google play and movies on amazon
<scott-work> i think google music allows 20k songs for free, i'm not sure how that might translate into Gb's though
<zequence> Don't think we have google music so far
<zequence> Only US probably
<zequence> This is one of the things I'll be studying http://www.lpi.org/news/lpi-certification-exams-exceed-350000-worldwide
<zequence> I'm also aiming for Red Hat certificates
<scott-work> zequence: ooooooh, that's cool..especially the red hat cert
<ttoine> scott-work, http://blog.ttoine.net/2013/01/28/harrison-mixbus-et-ubuntu-12-04-chez-azarecord/
<ttoine> http://blog.ttoine.net/files/2013/01/Performance-MixBus.txt
<scott-work> ttoine: thanks. that was a good read :)
<scott-work> has anybody contacted you for further testing?
<scott-work> i've very glad you have that data compiled and documented
<scott-work> (and i agree that it wasn't a surprse that intel worked so well)
<ttoine> scott-work, at the moment, nobody. But I will have some opportunity in february, I think
<ttoine> scott-work, oh, and zequence asked me why I didn't do the test on ubuntu studio desktop: it was not possible to install to much stuff on the computers that don't belong to me
<ttoine> I tried to install ubuntu studio desktop on my laptop, the thinkpad. But it changes too many thing (splash screen of boot and shutdown, etc...) I didn't want to do that on other computers
<scott-work> that is completely understandable
<ttoine> scott-work, the amdA6 based computer is in production at azarecord. I know that this afternoon, a 23 tracks session was mixed. It sounds good, better than with their previous workstation, they expect more customers.
<ttoine> and because the new workstation and licences cost very less, they will have a better margin
<scott-work> this might be a cool thing to put up on the ubuntu studio website ;)
<scott-work> example use case, testimonial, success story or whatever it might be called
<ttoine> so the choice is very good. Only one sound technician don't want to work on the ubuntu + mixbus
<ttoine> yes, i was thinking of something like that
<ttoine> I write it in french on my blog, I will try to translate it in english, in a more complete version
<scott-work> i would be happy to proof-read the translation if you would like
<scott-work> going home, by all
<scott-work> errr, bye all
#ubuntustudio-devel 2013-02-02
<len-1304> zequence, have you played with 13.04 much? Which file manager do you use on a daily basis?
<len-1304> I have been using Thunar with no issues for over a month now.
<len-1304> I find the UI easier to understand... but I don't know how long that will be true for the average user.
<len-1304> catfish is getting a rewrite and looks like it is to the testing stage.
<zequence> len-1304: I don't really do much desktop testing
<zequence> I don't use XFCE on a daily basis. I rather use Gnome3
<zequence> I only boot into XFCE if I need to do something specific
<zequence> Right now I've got all the releases, both 32 and 64 bit installed, so I can do testing, if needed
<len-1304> Ok, I am just wondering if there is any reason to keep nautilus.
<zequence> So far, I'm just booting lowlatency kernels on them as a part of the update/maintenance procedure
<zequence> len-1304: I'm more or less of the opinion, that we could just as well use either XFCE defaults, or Xubuntu defaults as far as it doesn't affect our workflows negatively
<zequence> I've started to think about the possibility of keeping multiple desktop solutions for Ubuntu Studio
<zequence> I pitched the idea to falktx, saying why not he maintained a KDE version of ubuntustudio-desktop
<zequence> He didn't seem to interested though
<zequence> And of course, it would require interest
<len-1304> I should perhaps work on a menu set that was more generic then.
<zequence> I think our menu is great. I just think we should follow the established standards to the letter, and push upstream changes to the standards that we require
<len-1304> What I mean is that our menu will only show in xfce
<len-1304> it is possible to make those changes show up in kde as well
<zequence> Oh, I think that would be much better, yes
<len-1304> (and gnome )
<len-1304> It will take some work :)
<len-1304> I don't want to go back to three or more menu config files
<zequence> We might need to think more about these things, but AFA the meny goes, I think it makes sense to have it be as generic as possible
<len-1304> OK, once -settings gets released as is so I can test our icon theme and it works right I will work on that next.
<len-1304> Just tested the newest catfish, it opens but has problems in R.
<len-1304> The dev lives on #xubuntu-devel so I will follow his PPA and do testing for it. I think we need a search utility now that none of the file managers have one.
<len-1304> zequence, I have set up an internet streaming set up with two machines. (this is the normal way to do it) I don't know if we want to add the apps for this workflow or not. Basically it is just IDJC. The server side... well is server :)
<len-1304> By the time the stream gets to the server it is high latency (5 sec or so) and I have ubuntu server on that one.
<len-1304> There seem to be a number of fixes coming in the new unreleased as yet pulse. I hope to see them in Ubuntu for R, but if not we should have them by next LTS.
<len-1304> I have asked for the PA-jack bridge to default to stereo (2 channels) rather than as many as the hardware supports.
<len-1304> This should be more in line with (semi)pro needs.
<zequence> len-1304: Sounds good about the bridge
<zequence> len-1304: Don't know much about streaming, but that's probably something worth making easy on US as well
<len-1304> zequence, The streaming part is actually easy. It is the extras that seem to cause the most trouble.
<len-1304> It seems that with either streaming or podcast creation, remote interview stuff gets thrown in.
<len-1304> So the phone/conference to jack interface gets to be the trouble part.
<len-1304> It is possible to do a phone/skype recording all in PA... but it is not intuitive at all. There is much manual set up required after the call has been connected :P
<zequence> I guess it might make sense to finish testing stuff first, as that is the "simplest" part of development, and the first step towards fixing stuff
<zequence> Just thinking what I should do right now
<zequence> len-1304: This might be a nice resource, if you wanted to learn python https://python-guide.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
<len-1304> Thank you. What I really need to do is some coding... like work on a project  :)
<len-1304> But I will add that to the site I was following.
<len-1304> (a gnome site I think)
<zequence> I was looking at docs for UTAH, the testing system being developed and which I was intending to see if we could use for anything intelligent. Seems to be some nice docs on that site
<zequence> readthedocs.org
<len-1304> Oh my, someone is trying to suspend US  :P  
<len-1304> Anyway, I have posted an email to the list about the internet streaming/podcast work flow.
<len-1304> Just some thoughts and experiences.
<zequence> suspend?
<len-1304> Lumpy, feel free to add whatever as you use this setup.
<len-1304> Ya bug #586209
<ubottu> bug 586209 in jack-audio-connection-kit (Ubuntu) "jackd crashes on suspend" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/586209
<zequence> Since Ubuntu is going mobile some time next year, that will become a possible tool for anything multimedia, including low latency audio
<zequence> Android is said to have lousy low latency audio
<len-1304> zequence, The question is if that is internal audio or USB audio.
<zequence> len-1304: Not sure what the hardware will look like, but since from what I understand, the phone can be docked and turned into a regular desktop system, it might support a usb interface
<zequence> Even with internal audio, you can use it to create content, even if not recording audio with it
<zequence> You could make beats, record voice fragments, sample stuff
<zequence> Sampling does require a bit of quality though, so some way of using an external mic would be required
<len-1304> I guess what I am saying is that my netbook, similar in design idea, has really bad internal latency because of bad HW decisions. But is ok with external HW
<zequence> The change in processor architecture alone makes a big difference
<zequence> From what I've seen, arm processors need some getting used to for audio developers
<zequence> The big difference with the Ubuntu phone will be that it's practically the same OS as a desktop os. It has the same core components
<zequence> ..compared to other phone OSs
<zequence> And that does open up for a lot of fun things
<zequence> We aren't exactly well manned, but it might be something we should look into. How to bring Ubuntu Studio to the phone
<len-1304> It means to me (hope I'm wrong) that the desktop version will be less nice... or less smart.
<zequence> It just means that the desktop will be available directly from the phone
<zequence> Unity will have three different view modes. 1.Phone, 2.Desktop, 3.TV
<zequence> The phone becomes all of those three things
<zequence> That's at least the impression I'm getting
<zequence> You can still install anything you want on it
<zequence> Applications will need more than one view mode as well
<len-1304> Ya, From looking at unity though, The desktop is getting less able to handle complex tasks such as development.... which includes audio/video etc.
<zequence> How so?
<zequence> It's a regular desktop
<len-1304> Unity tends to single app use.
<zequence> Nothing has disappeared in functionality
<len-1304> BRB
<zequence> I don't see why people think that
<zequence> Personally, I find Gnome3 a lot easier to work with than Unity, which is a little slow, and I don't like the global menu. 
<zequence> And, I wouldn't go back to the traditional desktop
<zequence> I only do multimedia and development pretty much
<zequence> as well as normal usage of course
<zequence> I think with the Ubuntu phone, probably other UIs will be installable at some point
<zequence> ..and used for the phone UI
<zequence> The term "single app" is not something that is likely to happen on a Linux system
<zequence> It's a multiuser and a multi application environment. All though some systems, like pulseaudio, don't always fit that category
<astraljava> zequence: I'm not exactly sure Ubuntu Phone users should even be our target audience.
<len-1304> Sorry I should have said single app on the screen at one time
<astraljava> I don't think any self-respecting high quality creator would give half a thought of recording much with a phone. Not even a tablet.
<len-1304> Phones are good for "reporter" kinds of use.
<astraljava> Yes, but are they our target user base?
<zequence> astraljava: Why is that exactly? You ever heard of people recording with portable DAT tape recorders?
<len-1304> A very very small part :)
<zequence> It's not exactly a new concept
<zequence> Jeez
<len-1304> But it could become a larger part if the HW supports it.
<zequence> It's a computer, like any computer. It's just small
<astraljava> Yes, true. But like len-1304 said, the user interface is designed for showing one window at the time. That's not very practical for anything multimedia creation work flow, is it.
<len-1304> SWitching workspaces with unity is a pain... with a capital P
<len-1304> Maybe there is a shortcut... but the gui option is slow
<astraljava> And even with a screen with 4.8" desktop, especially when we're going towards Full-HD, or even larger, how would you handle a mixer window with, say, 8 channels?
<zequence> Unity is in no way designed for single app windows, one at the time. The phone will of course do that, in phone mode (would be weird having 5 apps open in the same window, when you're only interested in controlling one at the time)
<zequence> len-1304: Ctrl+Alt+Arrows
<astraljava> Or from a graphic artist POV, how would you draw anything on that screen? Even selecting anything on that precise a screen would become a PITA.
<zequence> astraljava: Are you talking about recording, or mixing?
<len-1304> Short cuts are not GUI. They are CLI stuff
<zequence> A table might actually do all the things you can do on a desktop
<zequence> But, not a phone, with such a small gui
<astraljava> Whatever. The information bits become way too tiny for any type of pointing device, stylus etc. but digits even more so.
<zequence> I mean, you could, but it might not be time saving
<zequence> I think all of that is bollocks. It's a computer. Each gui mode has it's own interface. You can code new interfaces for old functions(programs). You use the right tool for the right job, and sometimes, or often, they are all good for the same job
<len-1304> Normally a small device for audio would be something that records two tracks. Once you add an external card, there is no point in using such a small device.
<astraljava> Yeah ok. When I see someone using Ardour 3 with a new front-end without any glitches, on a Samsung Galaxy S3 (or similar), I'll buy it. For some reasons, I'm not holding my breath.
<zequence> astraljava: Let's say there is one thing you can't do using the phone. Does that mean it's useless for multimedia?
<zequence> Even if it only does 30%, it's still a valid device
<astraljava> Look, I'm not questioning the device's limitations. I'm questioning users' limitations. Information shown becomes too small for most people's eyes. And I'm saying this as a person who has been complimented as having the best eye-sight from a couple of tens of thousands of employees' corporation.
<len-1304> I can't see tracking.... but then again there are 4 track devices that are really small too.
<zequence> You can do tracking as long as you have multichannel devices
<len-1304> Tracking requires one input... at least
<zequence> Ah, right. You mean adding tracks afterwards
<astraljava> zequence: I'm saying I don't see those devices as something this project should be concentrating on. Sure, fix bugs if people find them on those devices. But don't put it too high on the priority lists.
<len-1304> I think a studio meta for portable devices might be a better idea.
<zequence> astraljava: I think that's up to anyone who wants to do the work
<zequence> There are no limitations to what we can do, other than, who is willing to do it
<zequence> There's no need for consensus on a lot of things we do. If we had more people, we could do more things. That's how I see it anyway
<zequence> There's no need to pull the handbrake everytime someone suggests something new
<len-1304> Yes.
<astraljava> Of course, I'm in no position to tell anyone what to do. Simply stating my point of view. But like you said, the power of this project is having a few people working on things mutually agreed upon. It's not like there's a queue of willing people that are just dying to have their hands on the codebase.
<len-1304> I agree.
<astraljava> zequence: That's a very funny idea, how did you even come up with that? Is it like you were about to commit code, and I refused a merge proposal? 
<zequence> It's just the general attitude I see from most people. Including me, sometimes
<astraljava> I'm sorry if you took that personally. I hope you understand I have no formal authority here, and that you are free to proceed with anything the project sees appropriate.
<zequence> I will probably never take anything here personally ;)
<astraljava> Ok good.
<astraljava> I'm not so sure there's been a lot of pulling the handbrakes here. Like you yourself stated, it's more a question of not having enough contributors, rather than any shortage of ideas.
<astraljava> And I really don't see too many prospects being turned away by refusing to consider their ideas, either.
<zequence> the Ubuntu phone will be the first ever PC in a phone. In not many years after that, probably, the phone will do what our PCs are doing now. You dock it to get the desktop view. The apps are the same, just with different guis. Some things you can always do on a phone. Listening to mixes using earphones. Adjusting levels. Making beats with sequencers. 
<astraljava> What I do see is not having a real team effort. There's lots of discussion between a handful of people, few of which push commits to the bzr branches. Nothing else, really.
<zequence> I would say there are three people doing work right now
<zequence> And that is from the best of our abilities
<zequence> There's a clear plan
<zequence> And one of the items in that plan is to get more people involved
<zequence> astraljava: ever looked at the blueprints we have?
<astraljava> Not really, the very limited time spent on this project has been in the scope of monitoring this channel. And as such, I have really not witnessed any suppression of new contributor efforts.
<zequence> astraljava: I'd suggest taking a look at the blueprints, as they show what we have planned, what we are doing, and what is left to do
<zequence> One of the efforts towards that is PR
<astraljava> I would do so, if I saw that I had any energy to be valuable to the project. But as it stands, I'm hardly valuable to any organization within my immediate circles.
<zequence> Unified, and more professional communication outwards
<astraljava> Well I'm glad that is on the agenda.
<zequence> One caveeat with a phone is storage
<zequence> But, there's still plenty for one audio project, or any other media type
<zequence> one, or more..
<zequence> I was trying out autopilot earlier. Not working right for me, but seems promising for doing automated testing. I'm thinking, at least see if applications will run or not. 
<zequence> One can make more elaborate tests, involving gui interaction
<zequence> Those would need to be written for each application
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-27
<ttoine> hello !
<ttoine> happy new year everyone !!!
<cub> hi ttoine !
<ttoine> I am trying to build latest version of Pitivi
<cub> "trying", not going well then?
<cub> oh the pitivi version is 0.15
<cub> in US 13.10 that is
<cub> zequence, any thoughts on Ardour 2 for 14.04?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-28
<TheDrums> cub: Guess you don't know what problems ttoine was having building it?
<cub> nope I didn't see anything more aobut it
<cub> not sure why he was building it since there seem to be a .deb as well
<TheDrums> 0.92 is latest on the website.
<cub> yes, seems to be the latest available
<cub> Are linux developers shy of saying 1.0? Seems most applications always are 0.xx
<TheDrums> Most don't have a leading 0. :P  I have a built package of 0.92 based on the Debian Exp one, was pretty simple.
<zequence> One might as well use dating for versioning, if you ask me
<cub> and talking about versions, are we keeping Ardour 2 in 14.04?
<zequence> cub: You want to remove it?
<zequence> I don't see why we need to keep it
<cub> No, there was a questions in #ubuntustudio yesterday
<cub> I haven't had time to run ardour3 yet :(
<cub> But isn't it backwards compatible?
<cub> You can open A2 projects in version 3, but not version 3 projects in Ardour2, right?
<zequence> yep
<zequence> I think some people might still run mixbus - based on ardour2, but I can't see why someone would prefer ardour2 over ardour3
<cub> good evening
<cub> zequence, is there anything we can do about the i386 iso failing?
<cub> I browsed through the log file some days ago but it didn't really do me any good
<cub> hmm but the latest iso seem to be from the 27th. So perhaps it did build one day there. Never mind me then.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-29
<zequence> cub could be different reasons
<cub> nah I was mistaken. I thought it had been failing for several days in a row, which it didn't. Built last night again it seems.
<cub> Is Parole shipped as default video player for Ubuntu Studio as Xubuntu?
<cub> I can't remember if I installed it myself on my Trusty or if it was already there
<zequence> Check the seeds
<zequence> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntustudio.trusty
<cub> right
<cub> If it's a "recommend", then it's not installed by default? I never got that when adding gnome-orca
<cub> Parole is listed as "* (parole)" which according to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Seeds means it's a "recommend". However both gnome-orca and brltty is added the same way and they are installed by default
<zequence> It's a bit messy in our seeds, I think
<zequence> Lots' of recommends instead of depends
<zequence> Not sure what the logic is now, have forgotten.
<cub> I thought so when I started out for the 13.10 release
<cub> but was told by smrtboy it should be like * (brltty), I don't know why but I think he would know.
<zequence> Check out seeds for other flavors, to see how they do it
<cub> yeah
<cub> our default video player is Totem though
<cub> I confirmed the Bug 1272994 that skellat mailed to the xubuntu devel list
<ubottu> bug 1272994 in parole (Ubuntu) "Parole does not play mp4 video with h264 codec" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1272994
<astraljava> zequence: Most of the packages in seeds were changed to recommends around the time when apt-get started installing recommends by default.
<zequence> astraljava: I wouldn't say most, and also, there's no consistency
<zequence> OvenWerks: I see that you have added some stuff to seeds, but as recommends. Any particular reason to do so?
<zequence> OvenWerks: also, no need to add comments to the actual seeds, unless there's something really specific about a package - the bzr comment is there for that reason
<cub> astraljava, interesting. A bit weird though that it automatically installs recommendations?
<zequence> One can install with a no recommends option
<astraljava> cub: It was changed several years ago, IIRC. zequence: What I mean with most is that most of what were depends at that time were changed to recommends. But of course that's a long time ago, my recollection might be faulty by now.
<holstein> cub: you are asking about ubuntustudio on portables?
<holstein> cub: i think that would be up to ARM support.. or projects wanting to get in the iStore or whatever
<holstein> cub: i use similar tools on netbooks, though, i bring projects to the bigger machine when i edit
<cub> No I was more thinking of something similar application wise that I could run on my eee pc instead of using Garageband on my iPhone
<cub> what tools do you use holstein ?
<cub> I
<cub> 'm looking into if lmms would work for me
<cub> I'd like to be able to create and toy with ideas while I'm commuting and then bring it over to my main laptop at home to work with later on
<holstein> lmms seems kind of like a toy to me.. but, then again, so does garage band
<holstein> i just use jack and ardour
<cub> but in ardour, can you create music without recording something live?
<holstein> lmms seemed interesting, but, back when i was checking it out, it was crashy with jack.. i got it up and tested it enough to find that it wasnt for me
<holstein> cub: ardour3 has midi support, but, if i were interested in midi like that, i would do qtractor or rosegarden
<cub> GB is sweet in such way that the auto-isntruments there sound alright and it's wuite easy to build a background and add a melody to it
<holstein> if you want to work with samples like that, like frooty loops style, i think lmms is the tool
<cub> yeah qtractor sprung to mind. I'm not sure how midi works without a midi instrument or proper soundcard
<holstein> there are many soft synths in the repo
<holstein> and lots of linux instrument plugins
<cub> but the midi tools I have olooked at was sounding way too bad
<holstein> [lsd] in #opensourcemusicians is my go-to guy for this stuff
<holstein> i mostly just do analog stuff
<holstein> cub: "bad" sounds is a matter of opinion
<holstein> cub: and, im sure i can open GB and make something that sounds bad, or find sounds that i dont like
<holstein> cub: as a matter of fact, if never heard one i thought was acceptable
<holstein> but, im sure it all depends on one's needs
<cub> yes but in mma for instance everything sounded like my atari in the 80s
<cub> I need something better than that to be creative. :P
<holstein> "better" is again a matter of opinion
<cub> yeah
<holstein> there are many instruments in the repos and available for download/purchase
<holstein> as you konw, there is no "linux" making sure all professional musicians purchase the products availalbe for it
<cub> as plugins for qtractor and such?
<holstein> i mean, apple is always welcome to create and release GB for linux with jack support
<cub> that would be nice but I would prefer a FOSS alternative
<holstein> but, since thats not likely going to happen, you should try and find folks (like [lsd]) who are using ubuntu to do exactly what you are taking about
<cub> cool
<holstein> cub: thats asking a lot though
<holstein> its like, i want something *perfect* for my workflow, thats just like what big corporate folks put out with giant budgets.. but, it must be free and underground
<cub> you never know, somewhere there might be a developer wanting the same thing as me you know how to write the application
<holstein> and, personally, i find lots of those projects to be very much on par with commercial ones, but one must go and find them
<holstein> there is not commercial entity pushing them
<cub> exactly, they might be out there but just hard to find
<holstein> its not even "hard".. its just, not being marketed in any way
<holstein> why do i know about garage band? ive never ever owned it.. and ive only ran it on a few friends machines to help them set it up
<cub> for many of my friends, going online to irc to chat with people is "hard"
<holstein> i see commercials for it, and apple pushes it
<holstein> anyone is welcome and encouraged to push and commercialize any of the foss tools, but since there is no $$ coming in for it, it likely wont happen
<cub> my friends use it on their macs and ipads, so I tried it out on the company iphone. Quite handy to document ideas quickly
<holstein> sure.. but, i can do the same in FOSS, and with jack support
<cub> that's what I'm hoping for
<holstein> but, these foss tools are open, and can be looked at to be ported to whatever.. like the iOS
<holstein> and, the commercial tools are welcome to be written for linux
<holstein> so, really, either way is possible.. just not financially probable right now
<cub> I need to read up on lmms and qtractor and have time to mess around.
<cub> among all the other things I want/need to accomplish. :P
<holstein> or, just ask [lsd]
<cub> will do
<holstein> http://wootangent.net/2010/10/linux-music-tutorial-seq24-part-1/ for example
<holstein> thats his site.. 
<cub> nice
<cub> I'll watch his tutorial first before asking stupid questions that might be answered in there.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-01-30
<holstein> http://ubuntustudio.org/download/ says 13.10 is supported til april
<knome> that's probably false, but otoh, nobody stops US from supporting it longer than other flavors
<knome> wait,
<holstein> knome: i was just having words about it in the main support channel
<knome> 13.10...
<holstein> like. no ,really.. its supported for 9 months
<knome> yeah
<holstein> i had to break out the **'s
<holstein>  ;)
<holstein> it *is* supported for 9 months
<holstein> but, i think our site is wrong there
<knome> yep, it's supported until july, unless the US team decided otherwsie
<holstein> right.. thats what i think it should say
<holstein> or, its meant to say
<knome> (xubuntu only supports LTS releases for 3 years too)
<holstein> well, the repos are up though
<knome> which is a damn long time ;)
<holstein> the kernel gets updates
<knome> do you have access to the website?
<holstein> knome: i dont think so.. i had access to the testing site
<knome> okay
<holstein> maybe its just zequence 
<knome> i do, so i can change
<holstein> knome: COOL!
<knome> anybody in ~ubuntustudio-website has admin access
<holstein> i mean, i guess theres a chance that was the plan
<holstein> but, i dont think so.. i think its a typo
<knome> ~ubuntustudio = contributor
<knome> ~ubuntustudio-public-relations = editor
<knome> the last one should allow you to edit published pages as well
<knome> and done
<holstein> knome: cheers
<knome> hmm, allowing open team as contributors is a bit weird
<holstein> yup
<holstein> i dont like that, necessarliy.. but im not the boss
<holstein> as long as zequence knows, and wants it that way
<knome> holstein, hey, you have editing rights as well :P
<holstein> knome: news to me.. 
<knome> https://ubuntustudio.org/wp-admin/
<knome> try logging in with openid
<knome> (well the only option)
<holstein> wow.. that seems dangerous
<holstein> shouldnt we update wp as well?
<knome> nope.
<knome> you can't do it.
<holstein> who can?
<knome> the IS handles that
<holstein> that seems important
<knome> we're actually surprisingly up-to-date atm...
<holstein> well, its not my server...
<knome> yep
<OvenWerks> zequence: I have not put comments into the seeds for a long time. Those must be old.
<OvenWerks> I think the idea of recomends was that someone could remove a package without making the system want to remove the whole meta.
<OvenWerks> That is not a problem with an install, but may be if the meta is installed on top of another install such as lubuntu or kubuntu.
<zequence> OvenWerks: So, we should move all our depends in our metas to recommends
<zequence> or..?
<zequence> holstein: 13.04 is EOL this month
<zequence> No more kernel updates
<zequence> 13.10 is EOL in 6 months
<zequence> holstein: Where is the typo?
<zequence> knome: Ah, the download page?
<zequence> knome: The open team don't have any special rights. It's just a way to keep track of who is doing what
<zequence> The contributors team, I mean
<zequence> ~ubuntustudio is not a contributor team
<zequence> It's a user team. Currently you need to be in that team in order to add comments to the website
<zequence> This due to spamming, which occurs otherwise
<knome> zequence, if they are contributors, i think they can create new articles, but not publish them
<OvenWerks> zequence: we should probably test removing a metas depends and see if it helps making it a recomend. It may be hard to tell as some of the packages have their own depends as well. Ask anyone who has tried to reove jack2 so they can add jack1
<holstein> zequence: its sorted.. i was just wanting to make sure you werent planning EOL for *studio specific 13.10 in april
<holstein> knome updated it for us :)
<zequence> Right. I think it was smartboyhw who edited that page last time
<holstein> its not a big deal.. just came up yesterday in the support channel
<zequence> holstein: I'm currently working on the next version of ubuntustudio-controls, which will be a indicator applications. One of the features is to click a button to get a debug output of the system, whenever someone wants to troubleshoot
<zequence> I'm thinking, in the future, when someone has problems, we just ask them to install -controls, and check out the documentation for it (which is also coming)
<zequence> Then, if they keep having problems, we ask them to click a button, so we can see what is going on in their machine
<zequence> But, I'm hoping the app itself will take care of most things
<zequence> Some of the features will be, options for autostarting jack and pulseaudio, as well as the bridge betwen them
<zequence> I'm adding some simple controls for jack too, in a user friendly form. Sample rate and latency (f/p)
<zequence> Trying to get all of the audio controls into one place, so that if you don't need to do anything out of the ordinary (which most users don't), they get everything from this one indicator application
<zequence> I'm intending to get a unbranded version into Debian too, maybe call it linux-multimedia-controls, all though, it's only for audio right now
<holstein> i like that being an option.. jack autostart
<holstein> not that im interested in it, personally
<zequence> Things should just work, especially the first time you try stuff out
<holstein> maybe
<holstein> i mean, it would be nice if it were like that, or more clear
<holstein> you can still download the iso, and fire it up,and click on things and watch them break and not know why
<zequence> The idea is that you have jack running right off the bat, and that any jack application will work
<holstein> im completely in support of that for others.. as long as it can be turned off easily
<zequence> holstein: Just a matter of clicking a toggle
#ubuntustudio-devel 2014-02-01
<cub> !es
<ubottu> En la mayorÃ­a de los canales de Ubuntu, se habla sÃ³lo en inglÃ©s. Si busca ayuda en espaÃ±ol entre al canal #ubuntu-es; escriba "/join #ubuntu-es" (sin comillas) y presione intro.
<cub> The web site states "The minimum memory requirement for Ubuntu Studio is 512 MB of memory.", anyone tested that in a while or do we follow the xubuntu recommendations?
<cub> I think xubuntu did a lot of testing with minimal ram for the 13.10 release?
<knome> not too much, but some
<knome> you can run xubuntu with 512mb ram
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-27
<zequence> Been working on -controls for a few days. Mostly on getting system info, all done in python. This is the list of info the script gives so far: http://paste.ubuntu.com/9898284/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-28
<astraljava> Nice work, zequence. :)
<zequence> astraljava: Hi. No long time no read.
<astraljava> Hi, yes indeed, been a while. How are things?
<zequence> Good. Installing Ubuntu's on a bunch of Win8 laptops for dual boot
<astraljava> Sounds excellent. You've been alright? How's the team these days?
<zequence> astraljava: Very little activity from all of us, I would say
<zequence> I have a few goals that I would like to accomplish, but I seem to have my thumb stuck somwhere
 * knome thinks "bum...mer"
<zequence> At least, I'd like to finish ubuntustudio-controls sometime this year
<knome> completely doable... at least you have 11 months to procrastinate now ;)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-29
<OvenWerks> ;)
<astraljava> Hehe, good stuff. :)
<elfy> hi astraljava 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-30
<astraljava> Hey elfy :)
<elfy> that's some lag ... 
<elfy> :p
<DalekSec> Still on the same screen.
<blausand> Hi there. I'm running Studio 14.04.1 i386. Does it make sense to try the daily to get rid of this bug regarding device-mapper vs. system-devd? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1358491
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1358491 in linux (Ubuntu) "[Trusty] fails to boot with kernels later than v3.11: systemd-udevd[133]: conflicting device node" [High,In progress]
#ubuntustudio-devel 2015-01-31
<blausand> Ah, thanks. Just wanted to know that.
<knome> ubottu
<blausand> </irony>
<blausand> Nice bot, however.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-01
<sakrecoer_> seem i've gotten rusty on the test-case proceedure... looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/ContributingTestcases/ManualStyleGuide#Testcase_Naming the qsynth testcase has got a number in the branch... should i disregard the prefixed number anyways?
<sakrecoer_> the qsynth testcase in the branch is a template...
<knome> sakrecoer_, testcases do not need numbering/ID's (unless you want to have some)
<knome> oh wait
<knome> in the *branch*
<knome> if it's a new test, don't add an ID
<knome> it's going to be the testcase ID on the tracker, and that is unknown for now
<sakrecoer_> thanks knome, i opted for following the instructions as they are: i did not add a test-case number prefix 
<sakrecoer_> knome: following that readme, in appearance>menu, there is a link to home, but it wont display...
<sakrecoer_> knome: oh, found how to fix it...
<tracker5> sakrecoer_: you merged fix for qsynth against
<tracker5> new testcase instead of changing the 1675
<tracker5> _qsynth one
<tracker5> my bouncer is screwed - this is flocculant :D
<sakrecoer_> hi tracker5/flocculant! how do i fix it?
<sakrecoer_> haha
<sakrecoer_> did i merge it...? gah.. thought i just did a merge request..
<flocculant> hi sakrecoer_ 
<sakrecoer_> \o/ flocculant !
<sakrecoer_> you want me to put the ID number back in the file name and push again?
<flocculant> no - there is already one there with 1675_Qsysnth
<flocculant> lose your new one - edit the 1675 one then push it please :)
<sakrecoer_> yeah, i saw that and asked arround, but non-one answered, so i figured i just follow the instruction on the page..
<sakrecoer_> sure!
<sakrecoer_> flocculant: should i just do bzr push lp:~sakrecoer/ubuntu-manual-tests/bug-1538228
<sakrecoer_> and link it again? 
<flocculant> yep should do the job
<sakrecoer_> flocculant: fixd :)
<flocculant> okey doke - all done now
<flocculant> off again now - laters
<sakrecoer_> o/ ~
<krytarik> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2016-February/039159.html ("Fonts-droid has been deprecated and removed, please update your dependency")
<sakrecoer_> krytarik: oh... droid font is one of the few things i awlays change after install..
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: what does xubuntu use as default? Does it look ok? Maybe just use that.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: zequence has been trying to move in the direction of keeping the Studio-xubuntu delta as small as possible.
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: can't remember right now. perhaps xubuntu uses droid too...
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: "studio-xubuntu delta"...? what is that?
<OvenWerks> the difference between one and the other. Delta normally means that.
<sakrecoer_> i think it is a good practice! I realy like xubuntu's art-direction
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: they also have more manpower, so they tend to keep thing up to date
<sakrecoer_> xubuntu even customize their mailing-list subscription page: attention to detail <3
<OvenWerks> knome: Do you know what the default font is in xubuntu?
<sakrecoer_> looks like it is droid on the screenshots
<sakrecoer_> http://xubuntu.org/screenshots/1404_customize/
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: thats old now though. if droid is not being kept up they may have changed... or the package name may have just changed.
<krytarik> OvenWerks: I just posted the same in #xubuntu-devel, ftm. :P
<sakrecoer_> thanks krytarik :) 14.04 seem to have droid in the window titles and deja-sans for text... but i'm just guessing from some screenshots..
<OvenWerks> http://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/fonts-droid doesn't say anything about it being removed for X
<krytarik> OvenWerks: https://packages.qa.debian.org/f/fonts-android/news/20151215T110021Z.html
<OvenWerks> So change the package to fonts-droid-fallback
<sakrecoer_> "The name noto is to convey the idea that Googleâs goal is to see âno more tofuâ."
<OvenWerks> package name has changed
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: I would still like to know what xubuntu is doing with this as the new package sounds like it may be less all inclusive.
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: Yeah, lets see what they say :) Noto seems to be very inclusive tho... https://www.google.com/get/noto/ but yeah... its a google creation..
<OvenWerks> lets use "Park Avenue"  ;)
<sakrecoer_> :D 
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-02
<sakrecoer_> looking at this: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ubuntu%20Studio%20Upgrade%20from%20Ubuntu maybe we should update it?
<cfhowlett> sakrecoer_, there is no shortage of outdated documentation.  addressing that alone would earn you a place in project lead heaven
<sakrecoer_> :D
<sakrecoer_> long time since i instalked US that way, but i remember ut being fairly simple with synaptic..
<sakrecoer_> zequence: the ubuntustudio controls are ment to facilitate that installation process, right?
<sakrecoer_> i'll digg into it this week. :) also, good day y'all!
<sakrecoer_> (or night maybe:)
<cfhowlett> sakrecoer_, take a peek at the wall paper the kylin team sent in
<sakrecoer_> hmm the flickr page hides half the photos on my phone... is it the one with the spacerocket?
<cfhowlett> nope.  fireball studio
<sakrecoer_> (my phone is old)
<cfhowlett> So I see
<cfhowlett> :0
<sakrecoer_> ok.. that one must be in the hidden column, i'll check it later :)
<zequence> sakrecoer_: That page used to be maintained by ttoine, who is the guy who handles the webshop
<zequence> It's a bit extensive, and IMO, it could be replaced by something a lot simpler
<zequence> ubuntustudio-controls is for setting up the system. There's also a package called ubuntustudio-installer
<zequence> By setting up the system, I mean administering realtime privilege, and such. Right now, that is all it does - administers realtime privilege
<zequence> Here's the feature definition page for it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/FeatureDefinitions/UbuntuStudioControls
<zequence> I've played around with jack and PA control in the past (must be two years ago now, that I did that)
<zequence> But, that won't happen this year, at least not by me
<knome> re: the font discussion, we're looking what we want to use with xubuntu; i'll inform you what we decide to do when i know more
<knome> i'm currently going through the fonts available in the repository
<OvenWerks> knome: any problem if Studio just follows xubuntu's lead on that?
 * OvenWerks thinks have been anyway.
<knome> OvenWerks, no problem at all, that's why i posted it here :)
<knome> OvenWerks, i mean, you should probably look what we are doing to make sure you aren't completely disagreeing..
<OvenWerks> knome: I would be happy using fvwm, I am not the one to ask...
<OvenWerks> knome: there are some who want it touchable too...
<OvenWerks> (or at least use with a tablet input device)
<knome> i can understand that
<OvenWerks> knome: it is not that hard to change panel/menu size. Or to put extra panels around the edge with apps in them.... But not as default I think.
<zequence> Yeah, we should do a sync with Xubuntu again before FF, and follow any changes they make before release
<sakrecoer_> i'm also voicing in favour of sync with xubuntu :)
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: fvwm, you mean this right? http://www.fvwm.org 
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: Yes, it is the first desktop I used when I actually started having enough memeory to use X back in the late 90s.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: as it was manual setup, I got to know it quite well.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: to be honest though, I don't mis having to hand edit the menu every time I added a new application :P  the standard way slackware got around that was to pre fill the menu if the application was iunstalled or not.
<sakrecoer_> OvenWerks: right! somehow i remember you mentioning something called "whisker".. :)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: whisker is the default menu in xubuntu.
 * sakrecoer_ is facepalming itself
<sakrecoer_> hehe
<sakrecoer_> right... reading up now... its not yet implemented in studio, right=
<sakrecoer_> ?
<sakrecoer_> i'm familiar with it via my parents computer tho.. :) they roll with xubuntu
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: I am actually running both in my 14.04 right now. Installed or not, the user can add a normal menu instead (or as well)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: whisker does not do so well with submenus (which we use) and by default does not look at menu file layout commands. It makes our menu look pretty messy in my opinion.
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: for my use, I find whisker requires more mouse clicks than the default menu.
<sakrecoer_> i guess, if you remember all the app names, it is fine... but then you could also be happy with terminal :)
<OvenWerks> sakrecoer_: for a normal desktop with relatively few applications, like browser and writer, whisker is actually quite nice.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-03
<sakrecoer_> hm... loging in to twitter... it is asking me to verify my identity... so i should guess this email and i have no idea...
<sakrecoer_> never mind, it was just to find a tutorial someone tagged @ubuntustudio in.
<sakrecoer_> found that emailadress :) it is in the encrypted password file.
<sakrecoer_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gimp/+bug/1540759/comments/5 have i got ARandR because i've added some PPA? 
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1540759 in gimp (Ubuntu) "Mouse cursor appears in the wrong position in Gimp" [Undecided,New]
<zequence_> sakrecoer_: ARandR used to be screen tool when the stock XFCE was not good enough
<zequence_> If you've updated your system from an older install, it might still be there
<sakrecoer_> fairly certain both my machines are fresh 14.04 installs...
<sakrecoer_> zequence_: how can i check? i've seen it displayed in bugrepports "installation media"
<zequence_> sakrecoer_: 14.04 still includes it
<zequence_> So, that is normal
<zequence_> It's in the seeds for 14.04
<knome> hey zequence_ 
<zequence_> knome: Hi
<knome> landed a few fixes/improvements for the theme today
<zequence_> Ok, thanks. I will check it out.
<OvenWerk1> sakrecoer_: I have been trying to get rid of ARandR for a while now, but keep on putting the change in too late. I think it is gone now.
<sakrecoer_> thanks zequence_ and OvenWerk1 :)
<zequence_> knome: So, what are your thoughts about making the theme mobile friendly?
<zequence_> Aside from a hamburger menu, autoresizing of images would be nice
<knome> zequence_, my thoughts are that it's fairly friendly to fairly modern devices
<knome> autoresizing in what sense?
<knome> providing a smaller image, or just making sure it fits the screen?
<zequence_> Not sure how it is done technically on some sites I have seen, but the image will automatically become smaller if you make the web browser window smaller
<knome> ok, so is the theme not doing that now?
<zequence_> No
<zequence_> Check our staging site
<knome> ok, then i'll take care of that
<knome> anyway, re: the hamburger menu, a simple one at that is relatively easy, but i'm not sure if a simple menu is good enough
<zequence_> Just the fact that it is a popup menu would be good enough for me
<knome> for you, but would it be enough for the ones using the site with their mobile devices?
<knome> :)
<zequence_> How do you mean? Wouldn't it be made specifically for small screens anyway?
<knome> there are good/correct and bad/incorrect ways to work on mobile support
<knome> and everything in between
<zequence> Ok
<knome> now just doing that in a simple way isn't really incorrect, but it's not the best way either
<knome> for example, check the xubuntu site and how the navigation collapses in a nice way
<knome> with all the bits for the submenus etc.
<knome> that's not a trivial menu
<knome> or at least it takes some time to get it right
<knome> just doing a menu that opens with a button and shows for example only the root level items is much easier
<zequence> Ah, right. Submenus
<knome> but then question remains how submenus are handled for example
<knome> would they only be visible when you were on a page within that menu structure?
<zequence> So, copy and paste is not on the table? :P
<knome> no, unfortunately it isn't that simple
<knome> or at least it would still require attention and love
<knome> and the fact that the community theme is made to work with both a specified menu and a fallback menu...
<knome> (yes, they do have different markup...)
<knome> (for reasons unknown to me)
<zequence> Other than the hamburger menu, and the image sizes, I find that the minimal width is a bit too large. It's about twice or more the width compared to the Xubuntu site theme
<knome> yes, it is
<knome> that's another aspect of doing the mobile stuff "right"
<knome> currently, i don't want to make the minimum width smaller because then it would mean the menu would break
<knome> eg. items overlap the logo or each other, and wrapping to two lines
<zequence> Ok. Well, I would consider doing some work on this myself, since I have some basic knowledge of all the coding involved, but haven't every even attempted making a WP theme before. Still, if there is some code I could work on, to adapt or whatever, I could give it a try
<knome> we don't need code
<knome> we need CSS
<zequence> It's all CSS?
<zequence> no javascript?
<knome> apart from some js event binds, yes
<knome> but the binds are the smallest problem; they are trivial
<knome> how i (would) do it is just apply a css class to the menu element from the event
<knome> then with/in the changed css class, make sure the menu is shown/hidden appropriately
<zequence> If I have some spare hours (I'm going to work on -controls some days anyway), I could check how you are doing it for the Xubuntu web theme.
<zequence> It's all here, right? https://code.launchpad.net/xubuntu-website
<knome> yeah, i can even give you exact pointers...
<knome> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-website/xubuntu-website/theme/view/head:/xubuntu-fifteen/menu.js
<knome> that's the JS part
<knome> the responsive design for the menu (and more) is in style-resp-*.css
<knome> HTML markup is pretty generic for both the xubuntu site and the community theme
<zequence> Ok, cool. I'll poke in it.
<knome> appreciated
<knome> oh, one thing you probably should be aware of
<knome> the responsive design is incremental
<knome> eg. stuff that is in -800 affects all resolutions smaller than that
<knome> the -450 file is relatively small, because it's inheriting a lot of stuff from the other files
<knome> somebody might argue that you should go "mobile first" eg. start adding stuff for the larger resolutions incrementally, and i could even agree with them
<knome> but what's done is done
<knome> re: images
<knome> the theme *does* limit them to 100% width already
<knome> the minimum size is just too big and that's why the image (and the content) is wider than the viewport
<knome> i just tested this on my own sandbox installation
<zequence> I would have no opinion on that, since I have no experience in that - yet. I've taught php, html and css, but on a very basic level. CSS I still haven't figured out well enough to fully understand positioning of elements. But, now I can learn some more :)
<knome> actually, the different subsets of work in the mobile menu are all trivial
<zequence> That's good to hear :)
<knome> it's their combination that makes it interesting
<knome> for example, the positioning is actually "static"
<knome> eg. the normal behavior
<knome> just make sure the menu items are stacked on top of each other (which is natural for the markup too)
<knome> the positioning in the dropdown menu we have on the larger screens is different
<knome> i could do one really simple thing for now to at least somehow support the small sizes
<knome> and take care of the main content area tweaks needed
<zequence> knome: Ok, thanks. I'm going to say nighty nighty for now. Don't think I will do anything for at least one week, and I might wait until after FF. But, I'll be sure to ask your help when that CSS starts making my life sour :)
<knome> ;)
<knome> sure
<knome> good night
<sakrecoer_> thanks for the insights knome ! got a few "aha" moments reading up.
<sakrecoer_> i'm off as well! read y'all later!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-04
<knome> zequence, i went ahead and added a simple js menu for small resolutions. oops. sorry for taking your work :)
<dholbach> hiya
<dholbach> is anyone around to have a chat with the CC in #ubuntu-meeting?
<dholbach> today's catchup day
#ubuntustudio-devel 2016-02-07
<sakrecoer_> zequence: re: the Cof in current-standard, the ubuntu-studio_brandmark_cof_white_on_blue.svg cannot be the good one. look at the second circle from the center the shortest bar...
<sakrecoer_> actualy, they all ahve the same weird short bar
<sakrecoer_> (all in the current-standard)
<cfhowlett> eh?  not seeing the problem ...
<sakrecoer_> the entire scdond circle from the center is distorted :(
<sakrecoer_> cfhowlett: the middle circle, is not round, and the short bar of it is all patatoÃ¯dal :(
<cfhowlett> no habla francais, mon ami ...
<sakrecoer_> :) it looks like a potato chips 
<cfhowlett> ah ...
<cfhowlett> I always assumed the COE circles were created in full then sectioned out to achieve the effect
<sakrecoer_> gotta blame myself for not looking at it closer earlier..
<sakrecoer_> in small, it looks allright
<sakrecoer_> but if you open it in inkscape and scale it up a bit, it becomes quite apparaent
<cfhowlett> *if* we can get a quick fix, I'd say go for it, but if not, let it be
<cfhowlett> I did indeed just peek at it in Inkscape
<knome> sakrecoer_, can you send me the files you are talking about?
<sakrecoer_> knome: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-art/ubuntustudio-artwork/current-standard/files
<sakrecoer_> knome its the files from the current-standard repo of ubuntstudio-artwork
<knome> you might be right
<knome> let me fix that for you :P
<sakrecoer_> you rock knome \o/
<knome> sakrecoer_, https://code.launchpad.net/~knome/ubuntustudio-artwork/current-standard-fixes/+merge/285296
<knome> hmm, one could have saved them as standard svg
<knome> just a sec...
<knome> ok, done
<sakrecoer_> Thank you very much knome ! :) i'm surprised to see adobe illustrator 14 as generator (please note i am NOT complaining :))
<sakrecoer_> this is the first time i have to deal with a merge request, i read i need to do "bzr merge lp:~knome/ubuntustudio-artwork/current-standard-fixes" but i can't find a way to look at it first, care for explaining me some basics?
<sakrecoer_> knome: found how to look at them :)
<sakrecoer_> knome: your version seem to have slightly fater lines, but it looks super tight compared to the other one.
<sakrecoer_> i realy don't want to start a polemic, not only because i'm super thankfull for your initiativ knome, but i think outwards it looks a bit odd that it is made in adobe. But one thing: can you give me your word, that it was made in a legal copy of illsutrator?
<sakrecoer_> my bad knome :) i just realised, that my files from inkscape also come woth that line...
<sakrecoer_> ah.. no, it was because i saved yours again
<sakrecoer_> my... the confusion.... the "original" CoF is also made in illsutrator
<sakrecoer_> madeinkobaia's files are inkscape files...
<sakrecoer_> dang, i feel like a grumpy granpa, but it does make me a bit procuppied: if we don't believe in the software we distribute who will?
<zequence> knome: Hi. Just checked your changes to the CoF. Seems the files are smaller, and there's a new file added. What exactly did you do, besides fixing the faulty part?
<knome> sakrecoer_, the red lines mean the removed lines - so it means the old files were created with illustrator
<knome> zequence, i created the logo from scratch; the actual changes are following:
<knome> 1) fix the non-symmetric issue
<knome> 2) slightly better alignment (like moving the circles 1px-2px when the cof icon width is 200px)
<knome> 3) smaller file size because they are saved in plain SVG, sg. not inkscape stuff; also, the more symmetric form means less markup, so that's also part of the effect
<knome> sakrecoer_, you can check the latest revision by doing "bzr branch lp:~knome..."
<knome> sakrecoer_, then you get a local copy of the newest revision as 
<knome> +is
<knome> zequence, oh, i think there was also some slight changes to how "far" the inner circles go, again a few pixels
<knome> zequence, inkscape locks some angles when you press ctrl while editing the circle; i would think it's snapping to each 10Â° - so you now have mathematically nice logo too :P
<sakrecoer_> knome: yes, but on line 94 at https://code.launchpad.net/~knome/ubuntustudio-artwork/current-standard-fixes/+merge/285296 it says "adobe" in green, so i thought you had used it too.
<knome> nope
<knome> that must come from inkscape then
<sakrecoer_> :) probably, inkscape dosen't edit it out, even if you save as copy..
<knome> or it's a leftover from the original file
<knome> feel free to remove the line if you feel uncomfortable with it...
<sakrecoer_> knome: one strange thing is that your files show nothing in ristretto image viewer..?
<knome> i noticed they also don't show anything in the thumbnail
<knome> tbh, i don't know why that is, but...
<sakrecoer_> neither in firefox.. weird
<knome> hmpf.
<knome> weeeird.
<knome> i created a new file, then copied the stuff to that file, and saved, and now it shows
<knome> let me do that for all of the files.
<knome> and now it says created with inkscape too.
<knome> so it must have been a leftover from something else in that one file
<knome> i need a mouse
<knome> sec
<sakrecoer_> also the blue is wrong, but that is also left over
<sakrecoer_> it is 0094f0
<knome> i copied it from the new file though
<sakrecoer_> should be 009bf9
<knome> aha
<knome> i'll put that in and send you a whole new MP
<sakrecoer_> awesome!!! :)
<sakrecoer_> one last lthing knome :
<sakrecoer_> in case you would have to redraw them completly, i just finished redrawing it too.. i figured i'd rather do like than then being complaining dude (illustrator thing...)
<sakrecoer_> i don't mind throwing my version, just thought it might save you some swet to know
<knome> i won't have to; i just copy-paste
<sakrecoer_> :) good!
<sakrecoer_> thank you very much knome! :)
<sakrecoer_> i'll sign off for today, read y'all tomorrow!
<knome> np
<knome> good night
<knome> ok, MP done
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-01-31
<linux_user> I installed ubuntu GNOME and then the three ubuntustudio meta packages for audio and jackd does not start up gives some barrage of errors telling me a file is missing but no filename!?! where can I get help with this?
<linux_user> the ubuntstudio channel was entirely non-responsive.
<linux_user> whence I fired up qjackctl (before even clicking 'start') I got all this: http://pastebin.com/mstEHEUw
<OvenWerk1> hmmm, not phychic after all...
<OvenWerk1> psychic?
<eylul> hey ovenWerk1 and krytarik meeting today? I have the feeling it is going to be a short one anyway
<OvenWerk1> ok
<eylul> ok lets start.
<eylul> dropping meetingology, until we have more people and more topics and generally until we have more. right now it is more overhead than meeting content :P
<eylul> so umm hello everyone. OvenWerk1 is here, krytarik is here. do we have anybody around who is here for the meeting?
<krytarik> Anybody else! :P
<eylul> haha
<eylul> just checking. i don't think we have a lot to discuss today. i was hoping to get work done these last 2 weeks, that unfortunately didn't happen. also traveling in february, so probably not online a lot, but I will check emails. Anything else from you guys? krytarik, ovenWerk1?
<eylul> (also anything you need from rest of the group or want to announce/communicate to others etc)
<OvenWerk1> not really, I have been pretty sick... doing some docs, but no real coding
<OvenWerk1> can't think straight enough
<eylul> :( I hope you get better soon... 
<eylul> actually I did lie krytarik and I did one thing at least.. more on that in a bit.. first.. and more urgently..
<eylul> are we doing alpha 2 or not doing alpha 2? did I miss a discussion on that?
<krytarik> Well, Alpha 2 is gone by now - but we'll have to do 16.04.2 shortly.
<eylul> yeah... well I am down for the count on that one.. unfortunately. :/
<krytarik> Another week delay on that though, it seems.
<eylul> I see
<krytarik> It was supposed to happen this week, that is.
<eylul> *nods* ok
<eylul> alright we'll keep an eye on that... or try... so.. next topic website.. quick update: krytarik and I wrote an email to community council asking for help. no answer yet. I suppose we should wait for another 2 weeks then follow up? I am not sure what is the expected response turnaround tbh. 
<krytarik> Yeah, wait some more - but I'd think 2 weeks is a reasonable timespan for them to give *any* response.
<eylul> can't comment on that in either direction :)
<eylul> alright, anything else we need to discuss until ummm I just realized next meeting falls on feb 14th. will this be a problem for people?
<eylul> do we cancel it do we reschedule it? I know I am not making it as I said before. 
<OvenWerk1> maybe have to ask in the ML.
<eylul> hmm
<eylul> well it doesn't look like anybody except 3 of us are making to meetings anyway
<eylul> krytarik you still willing to run the meeting? 
<eylul> (assuming it happens)
<krytarik> Well, it depends on who else is there besides myself, and if there is anything to report/discuss.
<eylul> OvenWerk1 do you expect to be there?
<krytarik> Is there anything special about that date, btw?
<eylul> valentines day?
<eylul> people more likely to be out even through it is a weekday.
<krytarik> Right, thought so - but googling just the date didn't bring that up. >_>
<eylul> :)
<OvenWerk1> less so for me at 1130am... unless my Yf wants to go out for lunch (without children :)
<eylul> :)
<eylul> well you two figure out when the date gets closer I guess then?
<krytarik> I guess having the meetings lazy-style like this, we can just leave it scheduled and see.
<eylul> exactly
<OvenWerk1> ok
<eylul> I might drop by, but I am becoming less and less sure that will be possible at the moment) 
<eylul> alright
<eylul> anything else to discuss before we wrap this up, and let OvenWerk1 get some rest?
<krytarik> Oh, there already: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-release/2017-January/004018.html [16.04.2 delayed until Feb 9 for HWE issues]
<krytarik> Otherwise nah, I don't think so.
<eylul> alright (and thanks for keeping track of that krytarik)
<krytarik> Sure.
<eylul> alright.. nothing from me either. this meeting is done. thank you both for being here. :) see all of you in mailing list, and next month if all else fails. :) 
<OvenWerk1> o/
<eylul> :)
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-02-02
<OvenWerk1> With regards to -controls, I have pretty much decided that it would not be surprising to the user if the machine boots in the condition it was last boot. So it would simplify things to just assume "at boot" follows whatever the user sets. This makes the system side script much easier to create and means it needs to be called less. It also means there are less security risks involved.
<OvenWerk1> s/last boot/last shutdown/
#ubuntustudio-devel 2017-02-05
<OvenWerks> krytarik: is meeting-ology supposed to be running all the time?
<krytarik> Not running, but in here, yes.
<OvenWerks> Cool, just wondered if it had been left on by mistake... recording every word ;)
<krytarik> Hah. :D
<krytarik> But hey, ubuntulog does this.
<OvenWerks> Thats different, I was thinking of meeting minutes.... could end up being hours..
<krytarik> Or days, yup!
#ubuntustudio-devel 2018-02-04
<enterpris916> Ã¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââ IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL SUPERBOWL PARTY RIGHT NOW LIVE CHATTING AND PLAY BY PLAY COMMENTARY GOING ON NOW!! ASK CHRONO FOR DETAILS!!  iwxtskvwsw: OvenWerks hggdh meeting Ã¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢â
<enterpris916> ââââââââââââââââââââ IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL SUPERBOWL PARTY RIGHT NOW LIVE CHATTING AND PLAY BY PLAY COMMENTARY GOING ON NOW!! ASK CHRONO FOR DETAILS!!  sxpbjbm: ubottu cyphermox trebmuh âââââ
<enterpris916> ââââââââââââââââââ IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL SUPERBOWL PARTY RIGHT NOW LIVE CHATTING AND PLAY BY PLAY COMMENTARY GOING ON NOW!! ASK CHRONO FOR DETAILS!!  ubxzg: trebmuh hggdh meeting âââââââ
<enterpris916> ââââââââââââââ IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL SUPERBOWL PARTY RIGHT NOW LIVE CHATTING AND PLAY BY PLAY COMMENTARY GOING ON NOW!! ASK CHRONO FOR DETAILS!!  kejwrcg: cyphermox meeting ubottu âââââââââââ
<enterpris916> ââââââââââââââââ IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL SUPERBOWL PARTY RIGHT NOW LIVE CHATTING AND PLAY BY PLAY COMMENTARY GOING ON NOW!! ASK CHRONO FOR DETAILS!!  jnedvngzq: DalekSec cyphermox meeting ââââââââ
<enterpris916> ââââââââââ IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL SUPERBOWL PARTY RIGHT NOW LIVE CHATTING AND PLAY BY PLAY COMMENTARY GOING ON NOW!! ASK CHRONO FOR DETAILS!!  akkscbbdsu: micahg krytarik OvenWerks ââââââââââââââ
<enterpris916> ââââââââââââ IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL SUPERBOWL PARTY RIGHT NOW LIVE CHATTING AND PLAY BY PLAY COMMENTARY GOING ON NOW!! ASK CHRONO FOR DETAILS!!  ecwaq: DalekSec cyphermox micahg âââââââââââââ
<enterpris916> ââââââââââââââââââ IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL SUPERBOWL PARTY RIGHT NOW LIVE CHATTING AND PLAY BY PLAY COMMENTARY GOING ON NOW!! ASK CHRONO FOR DETAILS!!  sxsgg: ubottu micahg krytarik âââââââ,
<enterpris916> Ã¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââ IRC.SUPERNETS.ORG #SUPERBOWL SUPERBOWL PARTY RIGHT NOW LIVE CHATTING AND PLAY BY PLAY COMMENTARY GOING ON NOW!! ASK CHRONO FOR DETAILS!!  xxeuflc: meeting cyphermox krytarik Ã¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢ââÃ¢â
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-29
<MirTU> DobrÃ½ den, poradÃ­te mi jak se mohu pÅipojit ke komunitÄ ?
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-30
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That nasty dialog box for jackd came back when installing via -installer.
<Eickmeyer> Except it never shows.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like pkexec can't keep environment variables it's set. Means we might have to change the .desktop file to run a pkexec instead of keeping it in the -installer script itself.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: That was the way I started out, but there has been a push to do things "properly" and not run the GUI as root.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: almost better to install as as if "no" had been selected and then fix it...
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: just have -installer check for the .disabled and pkexec mv to right name.
<OvenWerks> the thing is, even installing jackd right does not give a the same as installing studio experience anyway.
<OvenWerks> -controls would have to be run first after reboot and then logout/in
<OvenWerks> The user has to be added to the audio group too.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: on farther thought. If there is already a package you have been working on for audio/RT tweaks, It should get run after jack2 is installed and could include an install script.
<OvenWerks> That package would have jackd2 as a depend. This would force /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disabled to be installed (if installed with -q) and then the script could do: if [ -f /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disabled ]; then
<OvenWerks>  mv /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf.disabled /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
<OvenWerks> /usr/sbin/adduser `id -nu ${PKEXEC_UID}` audio
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Farther thinking... We can't shouldn't really install a file that another package would have to write over. The /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf
<OvenWerks> thing is not something we should play with
<OvenWerks> instead we should add our own file /etc/security/limits.d/something.config
<OvenWerks> I should probably look at the jack package installer first. It may not be upset at finding audio.conf already installed
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: In my experience, it won't even prompt if audio.conf is already there.
<OvenWerks> In which case we can just install it.
<Eickmeyer> Is audio.conf installed automatically with -controls?
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: no it takes a mouse click
<Eickmeyer> If that's the case, making -controls a dependency of -installer would solve the problem.
<Eickmeyer> Oh.
<Eickmeyer> Could we add it to -controls as part of the install script?
<OvenWerks> however, if controls is a depend, install could call the fix part before it shows anything :)
<OvenWerks> The part that does the actual fixing is not a part of the -controls gui because it has to be run pkexec
<Eickmeyer> I see.
<OvenWerks> so -install could pkexec /usr/sbin/ubuntustudio-system fix
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Couldn't -controls have a postinstall script calling that?
<OvenWerks> That would install audio.conf as well as add the user to the audio group
<Eickmeyer> Doesn't need pkexec at that point.
<OvenWerks> a post install could better just include the few lines needed directly
<Eickmeyer> Seems like that would make it even simpler than having to run -controls once.
<OvenWerks> The user does need to know they have to logout and back in to gain the permisions.
<OvenWerks> -controls will tell them so if they run it...
<Eickmeyer> Well, then documentation, or if they fail to RTM then running -controls will get it across.
<OvenWerks> -install could check for locked memory access and drop a dialog or message on the screen too.
<OvenWerks> My thought is that if the person installs -controls, they will run it and get the message that way, but if it is installed as a dep of -install then -install should tell them after installing all they ask for.
<Eickmeyer> Not a bad idea. Redundancy is good in this case.
<OvenWerks> Ok, so the plan is to add rt setup to -controls postinstall and then add a permision check to -install
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Yes.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Make sure you do another pull for -installer. I just updated for -controls dependency, but I don't know how to write the dialog box.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: I will look at it later... I will have to fix -controls first. Then -controls will need to be test installed as a dep by installing -install on a non-studio base
<OvenWerks> I will probably have to do a git clone of install anyway.
<OvenWerks> I haven't pulled sinse bzr
<OvenWerks> (Bizzar!)
 * OvenWerks needs to have more coffee
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I've got a non-studio base, so we'll use my system to test. It's a minimal Ubuntu install right now.
 * Eickmeyer also gets more coffee
 * OvenWerks realizes he has no idea how to write a .postinstall
<Eickmeyer> I'll get the .postinstall.
<OvenWerks> It just has to run /usr/sbin/ubuntustudio.system fix
<Eickmeyer> This is weird. I've got it, but it's not letting me push.
<OvenWerks> did you pull rebase master etc?
<OvenWerks> I generally keep two branches: master and a work branch
<OvenWerks> make the change in work.
<OvenWerks> git pull to master
<OvenWerks> change to work do git rebase master
<Eickmeyer> I had to reclone the thing.
<OvenWerks> switch to master 
<Eickmeyer> What I did worked.
<OvenWerks> do the local merge then push
<Eickmeyer> All I did was clone, add the postinst, then push. Worked like a charm. It was asking me to sign-in, so must've been something weird with git.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Did you get the postinst?
<OvenWerks> yes
<Eickmeyer> Cool.
<OvenWerks> does it work?
<Eickmeyer> I'll try it.
<OvenWerks> it needs to be tried without installing jack first
<Eickmeyer> Grr.... it pulls jackd2 and asks to install /etc/security/limits.d/audio.conf, which I guess is okay considering this step would be installed either via command line, synaptic, software center, or otherwise.
<OvenWerks> Oh, Ya. I guess that would be true, jackd is a dep
<Eickmeyer> Really, that alone solves the problem: making -controls a dependency of -installer. Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
<OvenWerks> So long as the user logs out and back in.
<Eickmeyer> Yes, so perhaps we just need to add that to -installer when it's done doing its thing.
<Eickmeyer> That dialog you were talking about.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I will take a look soon.
<Eickmeyer> Cool.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: When the postinstall script runs, it adds user "root" to audio... not the user that called the sudo.
<OvenWerks> Seems I don't have a copy of install anyway...
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: Ah, it uses sudo instead of pkexec inside?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, because sudo is required to run apt or apt-get. It doesn't even use sudo since sudo was already called by whoever installed.
<OvenWerks> the user is based on a variable that pkexec passes
<Eickmeyer> Yes. Unfortunately, one can't pkexec in a dpkg -i.
<Eickmeyer> So, it might have to be something that -installer calls.
<OvenWerks> sudo also passes the user in some manner
<Eickmeyer> Not a huge deal since it could be called as part of installing anything else.
<OvenWerks> Maybe check for both, obviously $user returns "" so check if pkuser = "" then test for whatever sudo uses
<OvenWerks> if one of them has a user in it, use that. Actually pkuser is userid so an empty variable is probably 0 or root
<OvenWerks> I think this is fixable.
<Eickmeyer> Right. Sudo acts as root.
<Eickmeyer> Honestly, I don't even think we need the postinst if -controls is a dependency of -installer since it calls that dialog, which is what we're avoiding.
<Eickmeyer> Takes care of the dialog so that -installer doesn't have to.
<OvenWerks> we have to install jackd with quite don't ask any questions
<Eickmeyer> Well, if -controls is already installed before -installer runs, then jackd will be quiet since it will see that 1) it's already installed, and 2) audio.conf already exists.
<Eickmeyer> Basically, that yes/no will already be answered.
<Eickmeyer> And dpkg knows this.
<Eickmeyer> We can then have installer run "pkexec ubuntustudio-system fix".
<Eickmeyer> Takes care of if they answered "no".
<OvenWerks> Ok
<Eickmeyer> I'm going to give it a whirl.
<OvenWerks> installer should do that at startup
<Eickmeyer> I would agree, except what if the user doesn't want to use Studio for audio?
<Eickmeyer> Actually, that's beside the point.
<Eickmeyer> It might be bad to give the impression that the entire interface is running in root.
<OvenWerks> I will also fix the bug in -controls, group will only be joined if user id > 999
<OvenWerks> (interactive users start at 1000)
<Eickmeyer> Okay, just pushed the removal of the postinst.
<OvenWerks> Oh... this is the wish version... 
<Eickmeyer> wish version?
<OvenWerks> tk/tcl
<OvenWerks> It was never released when I did it.
<Eickmeyer> This was the code I pulled from bzr.
<OvenWerks> yes, I uploaded it, but noone wanted to do the release work.
<Eickmeyer> Well, it's about time we got that moving then.
<OvenWerks> I think I decided that tk/tcl pulled in the fewest deps
<Eickmeyer> I saw that in the changelog, the switch to tk/tcl.
<OvenWerks> and the old dep on zenity
<OvenWerks> zenity is getting bit rot
<Eickmeyer> So, you got the changes in, but nobody did the release work.
<OvenWerks> It used to be everything had zenity as there was both a qt and gnome version
<OvenWerks> Ya.
<Eickmeyer> Well, I see no reason why we can't move forward with it.
<OvenWerks> tk can do a lot more than zenity. It used to be my gui of choice when I was developing on Linux for windows at work (15 - 20 years ago)
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: would you like to change installer to include the package list inside the script rather than on the commandline?
<OvenWerks> would you like to add uninstall? anything like that?
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's not a bad idea. After all, what else would we be using this script for?
<Eickmeyer> Well, we could add uninstall, I suppose. 
<Eickmeyer> As long as it's not too much work.
<OvenWerks> for that matter it would be possible to switch to python like -controls if it is easier to maintain that way.
<Eickmeyer> If we switch to Python, it might look better too since then we coulld use a toolkit.
<OvenWerks> I originally thought it could be used as a generic install script GUI.
<OvenWerks> even in tk it could look a lot different
<OvenWerks> Ardour originally used tk
<Eickmeyer> Well, I think using it for a post-install "I want this set of packages that I didn't install at install time" combined with a "I want Ubuntu Studio on my {insert flavor} installation" solution. Doesn't need to be generic.
<OvenWerks> No, we have never used it genericly
<Eickmeyer> If someone wants to use it for their own purpose, they can feel free to fork it.
<OvenWerks> Oh, maybe we did
<Eickmeyer> What else was it used for?
<OvenWerks> We used to have one desktop file for each sub menu
<Eickmeyer> Oh, I see.
<Eickmeyer> Maybe we do just keep the command-line then.
<Eickmeyer> Unless we've done away with that.
<OvenWerks> So under audio production there was an install item that would install the audio meta or other applications we didn't ship but we liked to provide a way of installing.
<OvenWerks> there is only one desktop file in there now
<Eickmeyer> Okay, so we've done away with that then. No reason why we can't re-tool it.
<OvenWerks> we could do both, if no cl params use internal list
<OvenWerks> It does need someone to keep up with it
<Eickmeyer> I'd have no problem with that, since while I'm no coder it's easy for me to parse.
<OvenWerks> Maybe we should add a python branch
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. Maybe transition to Python with 19.10?
<OvenWerks> That way, Install can be released as is. And there is no pressure to get it done
<Eickmeyer> Yeah.
<Eickmeyer> Confirmed: having -controls as a dep for -installer did the trick, installation is proceeding without a hitch (or a hang, as the case was).
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: ^
<OvenWerks> Cool
 * OvenWerks is realizing how painful it was to make something follow another process running as root.
<OvenWerks> Does the process bar still work right?
<Eickmeyer> Yes, it still works.
<OvenWerks> cool
<OvenWerks> I think the package name needs to be in a bigger column
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. "ubuntustudio-" takes quite a bit of room to begin with.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I don't set the list box width, what size should I try?
<Eickmeyer> 150px to start?
<OvenWerks> in charactors
<Eickmeyer> Oh. go for 25.
<OvenWerks> grub2-themes-ubuntustudio fits
<Eickmeyer> Perfect. Is that the longest one?
<OvenWerks> Mine only shows three becasue the rest are already installed
<OvenWerks> I can push it though
<Eickmeyer> plymouth-theme-ubuntustudio is longer.
<Eickmeyer> (I might consolidate those two into "ubuntustudio-branding")
<OvenWerks> So make it 30
<Eickmeyer> ok
<OvenWerks> I want to play with the grub one too at some time
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. The grub one was fun. Forked the Ubuntu MATE grub theme, I think it looks good.
<Eickmeyer> I just need to get it up and sponsored since it's a new package.
<OvenWerks> does the grub one include the 09-grub or is that still in something else?
<OvenWerks> the /etc/grub.d/
<OvenWerks> 09_lowlatency
<Eickmeyer> That's something else.
<OvenWerks> Right now 09_lowlatency just adds the lowlatency entry at the top then calls 10_linux
<Eickmeyer> Yeah. that's in ubuntustudio-default-settings and ubuntustudio-lowlatency-settings.
<OvenWerks> I would like to change it so that it replaces 10_linux
<Eickmeyer> grub2-themes- only themes grub.
<OvenWerks> Ah.
<Eickmeyer> Replacing 10_linux would work if it wasn't directly installed by another package. That gets sticky with file conflicts.
<OvenWerks> I think it would be nice to list the latest RT as default (if it exists) followed by the latest lowlatency and then the latest generic all with labels.
<Eickmeyer> There's no RT in Ubuntu.
<Eickmeyer> Was too problematic to maintain iirc.
<OvenWerks> My thought was to have 09_lowlatency chmod -x 10_linux
<OvenWerks> Ya, there is no RT but if someone builds one, it should be auto default]
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: So, then one would have to do a postinst in -default-settings and -lowlatency-settings. 
<OvenWerks> no, the 09 could do that on the fly every time it runs :)
<Eickmeyer> Ohhhhh! I seee!
<Eickmeyer> If that's the case, and it works, then have at it!
<Eickmeyer> I mean, are we being redundant by keeping 10 at +x?
<OvenWerks> The proper way would be to make a ubuntustudio-grub package that "replaces" one of the main grub packages
<OvenWerks> better yet would be to push a change upstream
<Eickmeyer> Muh head a splode with that idea.
<OvenWerks> If I added a kernel_order=this,that,the_other to the user config file, the standard one could have generic at the front
<OvenWerks> then I could push it up stream
<OvenWerks> I think there is a file that can be added by a distro to preset those variables and the user config comes after
<OvenWerks> the user config would not have that line so the default would be used
<OvenWerks>  This is quite a long way down my list of things to do...
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, sounds great, but yeah, low priority, and getting that upstream in Debian would be painstaking.
<OvenWerks> not debian, grub
<OvenWerks> debian would then just take it...
<Eickmeyer> Oh. You think the grub folks would want that?
<Eickmeyer> That would affect every distro.
<OvenWerks> not really
<OvenWerks> they would be able to do that and for most people it would do nothing
<Eickmeyer> That's true.
<OvenWerks> The default would be no change
<OvenWerks> it would not be something that would make a new grub version, but it would be included in whatever the next version was
<Eickmeyer> Right.
<OvenWerks> ok thats odd, https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntustudio-installer/+git/ubuntustudio-installer says master was updated 4 hours ago.
<OvenWerks> but :https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntustudio-installer/commit/ shows later
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Happened to me before. I had to delete my local repo, re-clone, pull (merge) with the commit comment "Launchpad git error" on the merge, then push.
<Eickmeyer> It's annoying.
<Eickmeyer> I think it's a launchpad bug with its git hosting implementation.
<OvenWerks> I think I will leave it over night and see if it updates on its own
<Eickmeyer> Cool
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-01-31
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: three more commits and a new build is on the way.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: the desktop file list is no longer needed. There is an internal list and it is right at the top of the file.
<OvenWerks> There is a second variable right under that with the total number of packages listed. It has to match the list.
<OvenWerks> There is now a logout/in warning after any install. not the best solution, a test would be better maybe later.
<OvenWerks> And of course window size
<OvenWerks> I also change the title in the title bar
<OvenWerks> Just waiting for publishing to happen.
<OvenWerks> I am not sure if it just took time for my first commit to go through or if the second one pushed the first through...
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: let me know how it works.
<OvenWerks> Seems ok here
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Looks good here too.
<OvenWerks> fixed -controls as well
<Eickmeyer> Controls looks good, but I don't know what I'm looking for that was fixed.
<OvenWerks> controls hasn't built yet
<Eickmeyer> Oh.
<OvenWerks> controls shold not be able to add root to the audio group :)
<Eickmeyer> Oh, gotcha.
 * OvenWerks just sent email to the school that his son would be off for the "west" of the week
<OvenWerks> must be having an Elmer Fudd momment
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: anyway, -controls is published
<Eickmeyer> Wascawwy wabbit.
 * OvenWerks gets to install firefox and a new kernel so he can test -controls...
<OvenWerks> seems wallpapers takes a while too
<Eickmeyer> That's because we have a lot of 'em.
<Eickmeyer> Part of the reason I've held-off on doing a wallpaper contest this time around.
<OvenWerks> Maybe time to split off an old?
<OvenWerks> or just remove everything pre last lts?
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that might be the way to go. Move those packages into a ubuntustudio-wallpaper-legacy package.
<Eickmeyer> Would be trivial to do.
<Eickmeyer> Or not. Would have to redo some symlinks.
<Eickmeyer> It can be done.
<OvenWerks> keeping a legacy around makes the artists feel better
<Eickmeyer> Exactly.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: -controls works with pkexec root does not get added, a user I just added does.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: Perfect.
<OvenWerks> if run without pkexec the if line fails which is fine... the user still doesn't get added
<OvenWerks> when talking about run without pkexec I mean ubuntustudio-system
<OvenWerks> if run with sudo the group is not set for anyone
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, I figured. Sounds like the right result.
<OvenWerks> including root
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: just saw your closure on the bug about cd size. You could have mentioned that any flavour that fits on a cd plus installer already does that. I also think mini.iso allows to install any flavour (or used to) from a smaller than cd size (mini cd)
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: That's correct.
<Eickmeyer> At the time of the bug report, the goal for every flavor was to fit onto a CD. Since then, that policy is now DVD.
<OvenWerks> I think Studio broke the cd size limit as much as two years before anyone else.
<Eickmeyer> Yeah, that's probably true. I know that the goal was to get it back down-to-size, but that's a moot point now.
<Eickmeyer> Kaj filed that bug, so I'm sure he is or was well aware
<OvenWerks> I mean the point when Studio made a decision that 700m was just not going to work and would officially be ~2G
<Eickmeyer> Gotcha.
<OvenWerks> We did that early.
<Eickmeyer> Well, considering everything that's on it, you had to.
<OvenWerks> I think Kaj had an idea to have a second iso for network install
<Eickmeyer> Ah, I see.
<Eickmeyer> No longer necessary considering the proliferation of USB drives.
<OvenWerks> right, and it would not save DL time either
<Eickmeyer> I just discoverd that jack-mixer is in the seed but not in the ubuntustudio-audio metapackage.
<krytarik> Eickmeyer: "This optional package adds Ubuntu Branding to official Ubuntu flavors." - hmmm.. :>
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-01
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Oops, meant "Ubuntu Studio branding" hehe
<Eickmeyer> Fixed.
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: I can always count on you to fix my stupid mistakes.
<Eickmeyer> er, point them out so I can fix them.
<krytarik> Hehehe, looks like. :P
<Eickmeyer> The brain goes faster than the fingers can type sometimes.
<krytarik> And curiously, the second sentence of the description is otherwise the same for both branding packages, except "who like" vs "that like" :P
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Which would you go with?
<krytarik> Eickmeyer: Well, the "who" one was there first, so I'd just stick with that.
<Eickmeyer> krytarik: Ok
<krytarik> Of course, you are also free to leave it like this, just didn't want to let it go unmentioned. :)
<Eickmeyer> No worries. My brain's /usr/bin/words process segfaulted.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-02
<Eickmeyer> Sorry about the fail mails everyone. Apparently I can't spell.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer: is ok, my D key still works...
#ubuntustudio-devel 2019-02-03
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: XD
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: I was able to decrease the size of -wallpapers from 71MB to 17MB.
<OvenWerks> That sounds like a good deal.
<Eickmeyer> Everything else is still there in -wallpapers-legacy and -wallpapers-xenial.
<Eickmeyer> OvenWerks: -installer is not behaving normally if a package was installed and then uninstalled. I checked and you're using "dpkg-query -W" which will return a false positive if the package was ever installed. Probably a better method would be to use "dpkg-query -S" which will return an error if the package is not installed as opposed to the null it's looking for.
<Eickmeyer> Or maybe not. Either way, we need to figure out a better way to determine whether or not a particular package is installed.
<Eickmeyer> Looks like purge needs to be used when removing packages, otherwise they don't show up in -installer.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-27
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: from the responce we got from Sammy, It is obvious that 19.10 is already running things from /etc/xdg/autostart/ as on the fly systemd units. (systemd does not deal with redirection at all < << >> > | &)
<OvenWerks> So there was no logfile for him to find.
<OvenWerks> still I find it odd that the jackdbus logfile shows "setting parameter 'drivers':'alsa':'period' to value "1024"" and then when started shows: "configuring for 48000Hz, period = 16 frames (0.3 ms), buffer = 2 periods"
<OvenWerks> The best most HDA devices (bultin) is 128/2 (maybe 64/3?)
<OvenWerks> the best any USB device can do is 32/3 (maybe 32/2 with xruns) as USB is limited to 1 ms apart transfers.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I am in the middle of redoing logging for autjack to not use external redirection.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: this is a part of making autojack work properly from systemd :P
<OvenWerks> autojack still keeps running after session end and I am thinking that I need two systemd units to make this work right. One to start and one to stop. I think I need the one to stop anyway for the case that autojack is started by -controls.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I am interducing log levels... right now it is hard set to "debug" with lots of output. but I think standard will be warn or info.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: debug level will be on the system tab.
<OvenWerks> (when I get that far)
<OvenWerks> After that I need to make tablet at least do as much as the GUI shows. :)
<OvenWerks> After that... (maybe part way through) I will change the GUI to have reasonable period depending on the device selected.
<OvenWerks> (32 for USB, 64 for internal MB audio, 16 for all else... with a warning)
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Ack.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: (was driving)
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Might be a good thing to make a note that buffers/period should be set to 3 for USB devices, just to alleviate confusion.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: once the buffer is above 32, 2 seems to work ok.
 * OvenWerks has had no problems with usb devices at 64/2
<Eickmeyer[m]> That would be an edge case then. I honestly wouldn't trust it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: You once told me a name you had in mind for -controls if it were ported to other distros, but I forgot what that was.
<OvenWerks> prolly just audio-controls.... but it is starting to move beyond that.
<OvenWerks> However, If I was to break it off as a separate package, I might remove the tablet stuff and make a separate package too.
<OvenWerks> I could also just call the whole thing autojack.
<OvenWerks> because it is more about jack than just audio.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Check PMs.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-28
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Controls FTBFS?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Nm, looks like you fixed it.
<OvenWerks> I am downloading 20.04 to install and play with.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I am thinking that systemd session starting/stopping is broken and am hoping it has been fixed since
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Let me know what you find out.
<OvenWerks> There are a number of systemd user services listed in 18.04 that never seem to start. I do not want to bind to xfce4... it apperas that graphical-session never gets reached
<OvenWerks> (as a target)
<Eickmeyer[m]> I think it goes as far as multiuser, then launches the wm as part of target.multiuser.
<OvenWerks> That is system that launches systemd --user
<OvenWerks> systemd --user gets to the default.target and also xfce4-session.target (which I don't want to use)
<OvenWerks> but never to graphical-session.target.
<OvenWerks> it may be a problem with how xubuntu is set up. I am not sure if that is a part of session settings or what.
<OvenWerks> The whole systemd setup looks wonkie to me. They do not have a session target by default... rather a user target... but that target does not end on session logout but rather not until all processes that belong to that user have ended :P and of course the process that needs to be ended belongs to the user ...
<OvenWerks> I notice pulse seems to have the same trouble
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'd take a look and see how ubuntu is doing it. We want to keep it as DE-independent as possible.
<OvenWerks> look in /usr/lib/systemd/usr/
<OvenWerks> but... just because it is there doesn't mean anything
<OvenWerks> It may be a bug in xubuntu rather than ubuntu... hopefully fixed by now.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Highly doubt it. Might be the xfce utilization of systemd, but I don't know that much. I do know that we're not pulling-in any xubuntu-specific systemd items, so it likely just comes from xfce.
<OvenWerks> I found that I raised the loggin level (/etc/systemd/user.conf)
<OvenWerks> I guess I equate xubuntu with xfce :/
<OvenWerks> Then I do journelctl --user -b and search for "target" (with /target )
<OvenWerks> That will tell you which targets actually are being used
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, are you trying to call a systemd function from a user at login? Is that what I'm understanding?
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> because that is what putting a desktop file in /etc/xdg/autostart/ does these days
<Eickmeyer[m]> Wouldn't a better way be to place a .desktop file in ~/.config/autostart ?
<OvenWerks>  but that has the same trouble... the process does not stop
<OvenWerks> a package should never put anything in ~/
<Eickmeyer[m]> I see. The idea is that the process would have to be killed at logout.
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> 18.04 does not do that
<OvenWerks> so for a single user it is no problem
<Eickmeyer[m]> In theory, then, it's a process that has to be done by the user so that it gets killed at logout.
<OvenWerks> but if the first user logs out and a second user logs, they have no sound
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, having controls install it to ~/.config/autostart upon first run would be ideal.
<OvenWerks> the user should not have to kill autojack or pulse
<OvenWerks> no
<OvenWerks> autostart does not work and is going to go away anyway
<Eickmeyer[m]> Not .config/autostart, that's not going anywhere.
<OvenWerks> autostart is handled by systemd creating a phantom service that does the actual running.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Maybe xdg/autostart, but I don't know. Where did you hear this from?
<OvenWerks> the freedesktop page
<Eickmeyer[m]> But ~/.config/autostart/*.desktop is handled by the DE, not systemd.
<OvenWerks> not anymore.
<OvenWerks> That is why things stopped working
<OvenWerks> I will try something else to check though. But at least pulseaudio doesn't seem to work. The second login pulse startup gives "pulseaudio already running"
<Eickmeyer[m]> I've never once had any issues from applications started via ~/.config/autostart/*.desktop. Even GNOME still uses that to create autostart upon login. It hasn't been removed from the code. I understand why /etc/xdg/autostart might be going away, but if GNOME is still handling it (and they depend on systemd) then it's likely not going anywhere.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Additionally, gnome-tweaks can be used to add items to ~/.config/autostart as of the latest version.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I just read the spec, and it only refers to /etc/xdg/autostart, not anything in the user home folder.
<OvenWerks> yes the /etc/xdg/autostart/ directory is still there, but it is handled by systemd
<OvenWerks> any startup script in ~/.config/autostart can not be properly removed with package removal
<OvenWerks>  (that is why cadence won't remove correctly)
<OvenWerks> everythng we install needs to be outside of the user directory
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm not saying it's installed by us, I'm saying it's installed by the user as part of running -controls for the first time.
<OvenWerks> Same as cadence
<OvenWerks> not acceptable. That is the same as it being installed there by the package
<OvenWerks> it still will not be removed by removing the package
<Eickmeyer[m]> Unfortunately, there's no systemd call (that I know of) that can be run by the user. It has to be run by the root AS a different user, and does not depend on user login/out.
<OvenWerks> systemd --user start <service_name.service>
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's fine, because if it's calling usr/bin/autojack and it fails, nothing happens.
<Eickmeyer[m]> ^ That isn't called by any DE that I know of upon login.
<OvenWerks> no logind calls something like that though
<OvenWerks> no worrys I will figure it out
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-29
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: installed 20.04.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Cool.
<OvenWerks> logged in and created second account (joe tester and jane tester)
<OvenWerks> sorry called away, will talk later.
<Eickmeyer[m]> No worries.
<OvenWerks> without starting jack pulse starts and stops loging out and in to both accounts.
<OvenWerks> Start jack with autostart and when logging out and into another account the second account has no audio and there are two autojacks running, one for each.
<OvenWerks>  :P
<OvenWerks> tried removing the & from the autojack command line still the same
<OvenWerks> then also removed the redirection and still the same.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, so that means it's still not killing the process on logout, which means the process isn't being launched upon login by the user account, and therefore is not ending when the user logs out.
<Eickmeyer[m]> You can launch something as the user, but the user doesn't necessarily have to be logged-in. Only if the user is logged-in and launches a process does it stay with that session.
<OvenWerks> interesting fact. pulse audio has both a systemd user service as well as a file in autostart. But I notice that the way systemd deals with pulse has changed from 18.04 to 2004
<Eickmeyer[m]> We need a systemd expert.
<OvenWerks> in fact looking at the systemd logging, I see the various targets shutting down between one session and the next. The login screen is it's own session BTW
<OvenWerks> Anyway, I think I will have better luck with the new systemd setup than the 1804 version
<OvenWerks> it seems to be doing what I think it should.
<OvenWerks>  I have to run journalctl sudo to see all of it though.
<Eickmeyer[m]> That tells me the new version of -controls won't be backportable (new word).
<OvenWerks> yes it will... it will merely have the same problems as with autostart
<OvenWerks> it will be good to 18.04
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok.
<OvenWerks> I may be able to get it to work on both for that matter as I learn more
<OvenWerks> What we have been doing for months is rather than logout and in to a second account,,, just reboot.
<OvenWerks> if you are reading the systemd journal, be aware that many of the targets in system have the same name as targets in the user side :P
<OvenWerks> they both have Paths, Timers, Sockets, Basic, default, etc.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, it's a matter of seeing which "user" is running the target.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Unrelated, ladish has been marked for autoremoval from Debian Testing on March 5th. RIP
<OvenWerks> ladish was something I looked at and never figured out how to use. Plugins have made session managers not as important anymore.
<OvenWerks> Interestingly enough, time wise, the first session doesn't really stop until after the next one has already fully started.
<OvenWerks> xfce offers the ability to run something in autostart at logout instead of login... but it seems to be non-standard.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I think I will need to download and install vanilla and see what they do.
<OvenWerks> I think the way the session is set up is wrong. It doesn't make a call that tells systemd --user to shutdown.
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: Do we know anyone who is decent at systemd? There's an issue with ubuntustudio-controls that OvenWerks is trying to solve in regards to jack autostart.
 * Eickmeyer[m] tags cyphermox , RikMills , RAOF , tsimonq2 , and Wimpress with the same question ^
<RikMills> sadly no
 * OvenWerks notes that logind.conf -> KillUserProcesses=yes does not really.
<OvenWerks> adding an autostart item with a "RunHook=1" will run at logout... but seems to be xfce specific :P
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: https://blogs.gnome.org/benzea/2019/10/01/gnome-3-34-is-now-managed-using-systemd/
<OvenWerks> loginctl kill-user <user_ID> works.
<Eickmeyer[m]> So then, the question is, how do we get loginctl kill-user <user_ID> to run at logout?
<OvenWerks> actually loginctl kill-user $USER works too. I am guessing that is a xfce thing
<Eickmeyer[m]> loginctl is part of logind which is part of systemd. So no, not just an xfce thing.
<OvenWerks> The little logout/restart/shutdown dialog
<OvenWerks> what I mean is that the dialog that xfce uses to logout should do so with that command
<Eickmeyer[m]> Darn, no sign of bluesabre in here.
<Eickmeyer[m]> He'd know.
<OvenWerks> I am not sure how a logout is supposed to be done
<bluesabre> Hey!
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: how does xfce deal with the logout button?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Hey bluesabre !
<Eickmeyer[m]> I also pinged laney (Ian Lane, mentioned in the article you linked OvenWerks ).
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: do you have a vanilla install somewhere?
<Eickmeyer[m]> I do.
<Eickmeyer[m]> (with ubuntustudio-installer, of course).
<OvenWerks> if you do a boot->login->logout->login then in a terminal: journalctl --user -b
<bluesabre> I think thereâs an command like âxfce4-session âlog-outâ
<bluesabre> Not currently near a Linux box to confirm
<bluesabre> Oh
<OvenWerks> then search for "Stopped target"
<bluesabre> xfce4-session-logout
 * Laney was summoned
<bluesabre> https://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/precise/en/man1/xfce4-session-logout.1.html
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Can you explain the situation to Laney ?
<bluesabre> Pretty sure that does the heavy lifting
<bluesabre> But I'll confirm when I get home
<OvenWerks> Laney: we are noticing that systemd --user shows reaching targets but on logout the targets do not seem to get stopped.
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: I will try then.
<Laney> do you have StopWhenUnneeded=yes?
<OvenWerks> Laney: I am wondering if this is true for all DEs or just xfce
<OvenWerks> in which file?
<Laney> in the the .target unit
<Laney> Things are supposed to stop, yeah
<OvenWerks> when I use: loginctl kill-user $USER things work.
<OvenWerks> but when I use the logout button they dont This is bad because when jack is running and I logout one user and login to another user that new session gets not sound because the sound card is locked.
<OvenWerks> Pulse is not so much of a problem because it only uses the device when it needs it.
<OvenWerks> Laney: the thing is the .target files are standard (basic, default, etc.)
<Laney> which target is staying alive when it shouldn't?
<OvenWerks> All of them
<Laney> you have some logic in your session manager to end things?
<OvenWerks> when I do a journalctl --user -b after login-logout-login I see only Reached target messages, no Stopped target messages
<Laney> for instance in gnome we start 'gnome-session-shutdown.target', which has Conflicts= on other .targets, which causes them to quit and so on
<OvenWerks> xfce doesn't seem to have anything like that.
<OvenWerks> ok so this is an xfce bug then.
<Laney> and when the user session (the thing you see in loginctl) is ended, it should signal all remaining processes to quit
<OvenWerks> that doesn't seem to happen
<Laney> get the system in the state with a lingering process, SSH into it, and look at loginctl session-status THAT_SESSION_ID
<OvenWerks> I tried setting KillUserProcesses=yes in logind.conf but no joy there either
<Laney> it should be State: closing
<OvenWerks> my laptop takes a while to boot :)
<Laney> going to be disappearing shortly i'm afraid
<OvenWerks> Laney: after reboot login-logout-login and loginctl shows two sessions
<OvenWerks> (for the same user
<OvenWerks> $ loginctl 
<OvenWerks> SESSION  UID USER SEAT  TTY
<OvenWerks>      c2 1001 jane seat0    
<OvenWerks>      c4 1001 jane seat0   
 * OvenWerks is using two users joe and jane for testing...
<OvenWerks> c2 shows State: closing
<OvenWerks> Laney: setting KillUserProcesses=yes sort of works. It does not work is that user is logged in remotely
<OvenWerks> bluesabre: it appears that xfce when it shutsdown needs to ask for the exit.target from systemd and then maybe tell logind to exit. (or maybe just tell logind to exit is enough)
<OvenWerks> xfce4-session-logout sends a debus message to org.xfce.SessionManager
<OvenWerks> loginctl kill-session $user seems to be the secret sauce that works best
<OvenWerks> even with a remote login at the same time, systemd hits the exit.target.
<OvenWerks> systemctl --user exit 0  works reall well too
<Eickmeyer[m]> Cool! Progress!
<OvenWerks> dbus-send --session --reply-timeout=2000 --type=method_call --dest=org.freedesktop.systemd1 /org/freedesktop/systemd1 org.freedesktop.systemd1.Manager.Exit  kills things but does not reverse the targets.
<OvenWerks> The reason I am looking at dbus sends is because that seems to be the way that a session talks to logind or systemd
<OvenWerks> but I don't see a method for go to this target now. There is a set default target method, but I don't know if that would leave it default for next session or even if it would have effect right away.
<OvenWerks> So, create a throwaway user to test :)
<OvenWerks> Thes set default target method changes the default target until I delete the link :P so no good
<OvenWerks> systemctl --user isolate exit.target goes to that target (isolate???)
<OvenWerks> and stops all targets in between... but I do not know what dbus message that sends.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-30
<OvenWerks> it apears that rather than asking for a target with dbus... we ask to start a service... will have to try this tomorrow. So there is a dbus message/method to start a target... will try start exit.service with the isolate mode.
<OvenWerks> hmm actually a target is a unit, so I should also try startunit exit target as well.
<OvenWerks> thing is xfce4-session should be sending this for logout with the same timing as shutdown or reboot. That is do whatever cleanup first. However that is the one thing missing amongst the dbus calls to systemd by the logout part of things.
<OvenWerks> hmm yeah seems only targets are: AllowIsolate=yes
<OvenWerks> so, it seems everything is documented.... but the documentation is both convoluted... and contains no reminders
<OvenWerks> So the docummentation that tells you the command line call to get to a target in no way reminds one that a target is a unit.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I think I will have to install xubuntu to see if it has the same systemd mess that we have.
<OvenWerks> It seems that the systemd unit: xfce4-session.service is never started... and therefore is not being used.
<OvenWerks> so does xubuntu use it? have they worked around it? 9and therefore Studio's is also a workaround)
<OvenWerks> There is a systemd --user default.target which is where systemd stops.
<OvenWerks> on the systemd --system side default.target is a simlink to the system runlevel (2 or 5.... aka mutli-user or graphical-session. but on the user side default if an actual file because there is only one option... I think.
<OvenWerks> Hmmm, maybe not. If default was a simlink to graphical-session.target, a terminal login from a vt (c-a-F1) or ssh would also try to start xorg?
<OvenWerks> except those logins don't even show getting to default.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Of course they're using the same systemd. They get their packages from the exact same location.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Oh, you mean the mess. my bad.
 * Eickmeyer[m] 's reading comprehension sucks in the morning
<Eickmeyer[m]> bluesabre could answer those questions.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: the files being in the same place doesn't mean that much, the install of a default settings package could run a systemctl set default.
<OvenWerks> Though the fact that everything seems to work would indicate to me they don't.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I didn't mean configuration in my first line there. I was talking about the systemd packages specifically.
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, I take it we need to shuffle some stuff around.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I am guessing that systemd is not well understood outside of the RH community...
<Eickmeyer[m]> Or the gnome community.
<OvenWerks> That is it may be that none of the debian/buntu flavours have it really right.
<OvenWerks> From Lanny's comments yesterday, I don't think gnome has it exactly right either
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: one of the things we do need to do is make sure to remove autojack.desktop from the /etc/xdg/autostart directory.
<OvenWerks> when we install the new systemd based -controls.
<OvenWerks> Is that a postinstall thing?
<OvenWerks> Yesterday that was messing me up that when I installed the autobuild version, it did not remove that file. Now I did modify it, so that may be why...
<OvenWerks> I guess I need to reinstall and test.
<teward> Eickmeyer[m]: i'm late to the discussion
<teward> but SystemD can be pain
<OvenWerks> teward: :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> That can be a postinstall or preinstall thing. Not hard. if (exists) rm /etc/xdg/autostart/autojack.desktop
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: What we're noticing is that xdg is doing away with autostart in /etc/xdg/autostart as well as in ~/.config/autostart, which is the rationalle for needing a user-started systemd service.
<OvenWerks> teward: I was working from the presumtion that the DE and session setup was sane
<OvenWerks> or at least working the way it looked it should, but it does not.
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: Basically what we're finding is that autojack isn't being stopped when the user logs out, so if a second account or the same user logs back in, it spawns a second autojack, locking out the second login or account from using audio.
<OvenWerks> The session doesn't shutdown correctly. The session should set the systemd --user target to exit, but it just quits
<OvenWerks> This is because, even though there is a systemd service to start xfce... it is never run and when it stops systemd does not know.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Xubuntu uses a xubuntu-session.target
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: ok
<OvenWerks> That means we have no target
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yep.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/vXZBrRPWy5/
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I think then that I need to install xubuntu to see what the differences are. We may need to reimport the xubuntu session stuff.
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's /usr/lib/systemd/user/xubuntu-session.target
<Eickmeyer[m]> I've cloned their xubuntu-default-settings, so it shouldn't be that hard.
<OvenWerks> Ok, are you sure it actually runs that though
<OvenWerks> graphical-session.target in Studio is not being run.
<Eickmeyer[m]> That I don't know.
<Eickmeyer[m]> bluesabre: ^
<OvenWerks> if it was then everything would work.
<OvenWerks> instead of xubuntu-session.target it would run xfce4-session.service
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, I suppose I could copy that into ubuntustudio-session.target and yeet it into focal.
<OvenWerks> let me try a xubuntu install first... to make sure it does what it should :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> OK
<OvenWerks> I will also need to install kubutu and lubuntu (or whatever it is these days) and check them. I suspect kubuntu works but we need to know.
<OvenWerks> As you have a vanilla install somewhere you can test it already :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's lubuntu, LXQt still starts with L.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, but I've used ubuntustudio-installer on my vanilla.
<OvenWerks> that should not make any difference.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok.
<OvenWerks> the studio metas should not change the session setup.
<Eickmeyer[m]> They don't.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, anyhow, I made ubuntustudio-session.target and I'm ready to commit the change, if necessary.
<Eickmeyer[m]> (it's likely necessary)
<OvenWerks> test is simple: boot->login->logout->login  run journalctl --user -b  and look for default target started or reached and stopping. I think it should start the exit.target too. You can just paste the output if you like.
<OvenWerks> I have been staring at enough of them to know what I am looking for :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, in that case, brb
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/qF2wmRrGwW/
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's the results.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Rather, complete login/logout/login cycle.
<OvenWerks> Reached target Current graphical user session
<OvenWerks> we never get there.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Probably due to the lack of ubuntustudio-session.target
<Eickmeyer[m]> Try Xubuntu and see what happens.
<OvenWerks> There is more to it than that
<OvenWerks> Are you still on vanilla?
<OvenWerks> anyway, that works right it looks like
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, that's vanilla.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm still on it.
<OvenWerks> can you paste ls -l /usr/lib/systemd/usr/
<OvenWerks> and ls -l /etc/systemd/user/
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/ypCpqyF6bD/
<Eickmeyer[m]> BTW, Xubuntu does not install that.
<OvenWerks> which one is that?
<OvenWerks> the first one should be: ls -l /usr/lib/systemd/user/
<Eickmeyer[m]> Oh, that was the bottom one.
<OvenWerks> ok
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/wzrNDd8THX/
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's the top one.
<OvenWerks> So their session is requesting a higher target than default.
<OvenWerks> ls -l /etc/systemd/user/default.target.wants/
 * OvenWerks actually doesn't like vanilla's systemd setup either
<OvenWerks> default.target never gets stopped on a logout
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/KmZp2XFkNV/
<Eickmeyer[m]> The ubuntu-report.path gets installed by ubuntu-report.
<OvenWerks> Ya, those are not what I wanted
<OvenWerks> The idea of a lot of those targets is they should be staandard.
<OvenWerks> gnome replaces them with a whole pile of their own
<OvenWerks> The idea behind the default.target is that any program that uses systemd can bind to that and expect there service to be started and _stopped_ with the session.
<OvenWerks>  At least they use the graphical-session.target though
<OvenWerks> So if everyone uses that, we are ok
<OvenWerks> (we don't but should)
<OvenWerks> it looks like xubuntu at least intends to.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, anything in /usr/lib/systemd/user should be automatically picked-up.
 * OvenWerks opinion is that a session _should_ hit exit.target on a logout
<OvenWerks> no that is not true
<Eickmeyer[m]> It's not like sysvinit or upstart where everything is scripted. Systemd loads everything in there simultaneously and prioritizes them in order of what needs what.
<OvenWerks> yes, but they do need to be enabled
<OvenWerks>  generally with symlinks
<OvenWerks> systemctl --user enable
<OvenWerks> creates those symlinks
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes, by symlinking what's in /etc/systemd/user to /usr/lib/systemd/user/*.
<OvenWerks> yes
<OvenWerks> That is how I got studio.service working
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, if it is in /etc/systemd/user it can be disabled/enabled, but if it's in /usr/lib/systemd/user it is always enabled.
<OvenWerks> no
<Eickmeyer[m]> Do I have that backwards?
<OvenWerks> if its in a *.target.wants it is enabled
<OvenWerks> the etc directory over rides the usr directory
<OvenWerks> It is made for local changes
<Eickmeyer[m]> ok
<OvenWerks> so a package should not put stuff in there. I need see if we can get studio.service to run without puting the symlink in etc
<OvenWerks> but it seems we need to fix our startup shutdown first
<OvenWerks> I am wandering upstairs to install xubuntu (my wifes ssd is a lot faster)
<Eickmeyer[m]> ok
<OvenWerks> In xubuntu.... it seems broken
<OvenWerks> It reaches default.target but nothing beyond that
<OvenWerks> it doesnot reach either graphical-session.target or xubuntu-session.target
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: ^^
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yay. /s
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, it could be that xfce just doesn't utilize systemd properly. I wonder how Fedora's Xfce spin does it.
<OvenWerks> So just adding a ubuntustudio.target will not fix things
<OvenWerks> I wonder how vanila does it. Certainly not by the systemd docs.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Might be hardcoded in gnome.
<OvenWerks>  :(
<OvenWerks> bad
<Eickmeyer[m]> But, honestly, I don't know.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Laney: You around?
<OvenWerks> The proper way according to the docs would be to put a symlink in /etc/systemd/user/default.target from /usr/lib/systemd/user/graphical-session.target
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, we might have to do things the old xdg way until it's officially deprecated, which it isn't right now. Every DE still uses it.
<OvenWerks> /lib/systemd/system$ ls -l default.target 
<OvenWerks> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 16 Jan 30 10:29 default.target -> graphical.target
<OvenWerks> This is the way the system does it
<OvenWerks> the user side should be the same
<Eickmeyer[m]> graphical.target usually only refers to the DM, not the DE.
<OvenWerks> Yes, because that is where system gets to
<Eickmeyer[m]> Then user should be session.target
<OvenWerks> in the -user case default should point to grphical-session.target,
<Eickmeyer[m]> /lib/systemd/user is not a symlink in my case. Appears to be its own file.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Rather, default.target in /lib/systemd/user
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/wnpyyp8BCC/
<OvenWerks> systemd still ends at default target. To get it to end up at graphical-session.target means graphical-session.target needs to be symlinked there.
<OvenWerks> yes mine is a file not a synlink too.
<Eickmeyer[m]> graphical-session.target is also not a symlink there.
<Eickmeyer[m]> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/CtxDMPjfVx/
<OvenWerks> graphical-session.target should not be a symlink
<Eickmeyer[m]> Did StopWhenUnneeded=yes help any?
<OvenWerks> I am going to try: sudo ln -s graphical-session.target /etc/systemd/user/default.target
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, that file is installed by systemd itself, so be careful.
<OvenWerks> no problem... I can always reinstall :)
<OvenWerks> reboot
<OvenWerks> Well it didn't break anything...
<OvenWerks> It didn't do what it is supposed to do though. Reached target Current graphical user followed by Stopped target Current graphical user
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, didn't think it would.
<OvenWerks> Anyway, it proves that xubuntu is not really using systemd for their sessions
<OvenWerks> rather logind brings systemd alomng for the ride.
<Eickmeyer[m]> So, I wonder if there's something we can do with logind. I think that's done via loginctl.
<OvenWerks> I have something else to try.
<OvenWerks> (link xubuntu-session.target to default
<OvenWerks> uh oh, it seems my link was wrong
<OvenWerks> try again
<OvenWerks> it appears when doing ln -s with sudo, ./ is not translated to PWD
<OvenWerks> reboot
<OvenWerks> still not right. So now try xubuntu-session target
<OvenWerks> reboot again
<OvenWerks> session does come up.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Hmmm...
<OvenWerks> interesting. current graphical user stayed around longer and more things did get started.
<OvenWerks> Ah, it seems that xfce4-session.service which is started by (or in preparation for) xubuntu-session.target fails with: Only console users are allowed to run the X server
<Eickmeyer[m]> Someone in #ubuntu-devel mentioned they've been trying to figure out the right way to do this for a year.
<OvenWerks> xubuntu-session.target BindsTo=xfce4-session.service
<OvenWerks> xfce4-session.service runs: ExecStart=/usr/bin/startxfce4
<OvenWerks> .../usr/bin/startxfce4: says: Only console users are allowed to run the X server
<Eickmeyer[m]> Might be worth joining #systemd
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: we have two things to think about... I am not ready to try fixing systemd for all of ubuntu...
<Eickmeyer[m]> I agree, but we've gotta figure out what we're missing.
<OvenWerks> fixing this for Studio means the problem is still there for studio on top of *flavour
<Eickmeyer[m]> True.
<Eickmeyer[m]> We just need to figure out a workaround for the exiting xdg/autostart we have. Like, maybe have autojack kill any other instances of itself (like, setting a PID file somewhere)
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: https://salsa.debian.org/debconf-video-team/ansible/blob/master/roles/xorg/tasks/lightdm.yml#L23
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's a current solution "that depends on us tweaking lightdm"
<Eickmeyer[m]> Very hacky.
<OvenWerks> In other words, lightdm starts xfce directly and shouldnt
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes. It should be making a systemd call, but it doesn't.
<OvenWerks> sdm ?
<Eickmeyer[m]> I don't know about sddm. I'd try it on Kubuntu.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Or Lubuntu, since they both use sddm.
<OvenWerks> Ok, I will try installing kde
<OvenWerks> I expect kde is more likely to get it right as they have a bigger team.
<OvenWerks> Also they are the only flavour besides Studio who have a correct menu config.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Possibly. But, there's no reason why one can't have sddm and run any other desktop session. sddm didn't start life as a KDE project.
<OvenWerks> back downstairs to DL
<OvenWerks> no but if anyone uses it right, I would expect kde
<Eickmeyer[m]> LXQt honors the correct menu config.
<OvenWerks> not unless they have changed it
<Eickmeyer[m]> LXDE doesn't honor it, LXQt does.
<OvenWerks> Ah.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Lubuntu moved to LXQt starting in 18.10.
<OvenWerks> good
<OvenWerks> Have you tried it?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yes. It's very good.
<OvenWerks> I may try that too
<OvenWerks> I am thinking of going studio on top of K for 2004, but I don't know yet.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: https://superuser.com/questions/759759/writing-a-service-that-depends-on-xorg
<Eickmeyer[m]> (Writing a service that depends on Xorg)
<OvenWerks> ya Im all over
<Eickmeyer[m]> ðï¸ Yeah, it's not just us having the problem.
<OvenWerks> The thing is to find someone who has it right and see how that works :)
<OvenWerks> I notice that xfce4-session-manager has systemd dbus calls for all logout options (reboot, halt, power off, etc) except for just logout.
<OvenWerks> It would be easy to add such a command even if different from the rest because it is on the session bus instead of the system bus.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Any luck with either K or L?
<OvenWerks> I havent got there yet... just relaxing  I have 1/2 hour till I pick up my Yf
<Eickmeyer[m]> No worries. I was just curious.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I've got just under an hour until I pick up my son, sooner if a delievery gets dropped-off.
<Eickmeyer[m]> And it came sooner, so there's that.
<OvenWerks> lubuntu is the same as xubuntu/Studio
<Eickmeyer[m]> Wonderful.
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-01-31
<OvenWerks> kubuntu uses it even less...
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Well, that means it's a flaw in systemd in that the graphical target isn't being used yet. Chances are, it was never implemented in the systemd code.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Hence why xdg/autostart is still in use.
<OvenWerks> That still leaves us with processes that don't stop
<OvenWerks> (leaves everybody with)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Unless we have the daemon check for a keepalive somehow.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OR, set a pid file somewhere that if it sees it, it kills the previous process and sets a new pid.
<OvenWerks> Ya, which one?
<OvenWerks> it won't see a previour pid if it a different user
<Eickmeyer[m]> Why not if it's in /tmp
<OvenWerks>  unless we start thinking sudo stuff 
<Eickmeyer[m]> And there's another idea. Why not a systemd daemon that watches for multiple instances of autojack and kills the first one spawned if another one launches?
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm just trying to think outside the box here.
<OvenWerks> Ya, I know. 
<Eickmeyer[m]> Basically, anything we come up with might not be necessarily "correct", but we need to get the job done.
<OvenWerks> I can make it work in xfce with no problem... it is the making de agnostic part that is hard.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah. I understand.
<OvenWerks> It seems all the people who use ubuntu/debian/whatever never logout to login as another user.
<OvenWerks> this is certainly why this bug has been around for years...
<Eickmeyer[m]> I mean, there has to be a workaround, or something we can do.
<OvenWerks> There will be
<OvenWerks> We may have to generate our own target(s) to do it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Isn't that what that link was about?
<OvenWerks> All of them so far at least get to default.target going one way... we may have to sense session end and send our own dbus signal to get rid of the rest of the session.
<OvenWerks> this one? : https://superuser.com/questions/759759/writing-a-service-that-depends-on-xorg
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, that's what I was talking about.
<OvenWerks> it is more about starting things than finishing
<Eickmeyer[m]> Though, that's for starting something than for... yeah, that.
<OvenWerks> I wonder if I can set up a *.path unit
<Eickmeyer[m]> Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯ idk
<OvenWerks> I logged out and found I have three sessions going (according to longind)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Oof
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I am not sure if this is a logind, systemd (both are the same anyway) or DE bug,
<OvenWerks> Once a DE allows itself to be run by logind, I think that DE should realize it's responceablity to inform logind/systemd when it is finished
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'd think logind should be able to sense when a session is done and kill all processes started by that user in that session.
<OvenWerks> On the other hand, depending on how the DE session is started... a process that is detached/backgrounded may not show up as a part of that session.
<OvenWerks> if I use a display manager to start a session, that is a session. If I then login SSH to a tarminal (or even ssh -Y for a graphic session, that is another session already.
<OvenWerks> And that second session should not get killed by the local session logging out.
<OvenWerks> There are two ways of ending a session: Telling logind to exit... very harsh. Telling systemd to goto the exit.target... much more ordered shutdown.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I think that because the DE has decided to be responcible to call systemd:reboot,halt,poweroff, etc, the DE should also do the call to systemd to start target exit.target
<OvenWerks> it is too bad that the systemd method for doing so is completely different for exiting a session that it is for poweroff or reboot but it does make sense.
<Eickmeyer[m]> We just need to have autojack listen for a dmesg that the session is ending, if possible.
<OvenWerks> autojack already does that
<OvenWerks> That part is not hard
<OvenWerks> even apart from Studio's problem with loosing access to sound devices, it is still a bug that after logging in and out a few times with no reboot, _all_ the sessions ever logged into are still running
<OvenWerks> This is also bad from our point of view as we don't know what other bits of code are still running from a previous login (either our own or another).
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: in the mean time, we need to change the message after adding the user to the audio group from you need to logout and back in to you need to reboot.
<OvenWerks> in fact we could even put up a dialog simial to a kernel install that says "reboot now?", "reboot later"
<OvenWerks> *similar
<OvenWerks> I am going to put in a pr the xfce project to fix xfce... it should be relatively easy and would just fix our problem
<Eickmeyer[m]> Right, but how does that work for other DEs?
<OvenWerks> I will put in bug reports to the other DEs with a pointer to the fix on xfce :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, seems fair.
<OvenWerks> It is not that hard.
<OvenWerks> The other thing we could do, is to just come up with script to run on DE shutdown for each DE (they are all different) that runs the call to systemd...
<OvenWerks> That would be even easier, but, it may not allow the DE to properly shut down
<OvenWerks> That is the DE may run those scritps before they have done session save kinds of things (they shouldn't but...)
<Eickmeyer[m]> When the app gets the SIGTERM signal, then it could be passed to a shutdown process.
<OvenWerks> I suppose we could fork the shutdown script and add a delay :P
<OvenWerks> I am not sure that systemd when it changes targets uses a sigterm.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Something has to use a sigterm.
<OvenWerks> autojack now catches all the signals it can and I have never seen any in the log file... so it may be that they jusy go kill -9
<OvenWerks> if I send autojack a kill -sigint I see it in the logfile
<Eickmeyer[m]> Possible, but I've had processes literally hold a DE open because they're still completing their SIGTERM-induced shutodown procedures. It could be that it's getting sigkilled because it's not listening for sigterm.
<OvenWerks> that is the DE
<Eickmeyer[m]> brb
<OvenWerks> autojack seems to run outside of the DE
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's a problem.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: it's not the only thing.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: for 2004 I thik we will add an /etc/xdg/autostart/sessionkill.desktop
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yep, that should fix the issue. Yes, I know xdg/autostart is going away eventually, but that can't happen until systemd gets their S fixed.
<OvenWerks> It will run a script with & and wait 10 sec (5 maybe/, an ssd run system only needs 1 sec) and then send a dbus message to systemd to hit the exit.target
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: how quick do you think someone can relogin?
<OvenWerks> I am thinking with an ssd it may be as short as 3 sec
<OvenWerks> though autojack does have a builtin delay before trying to do anything to wait for pulse to settle.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I think lubuntu uses a lot of xfce bits or at least follows xfce ways of doing things
<OvenWerks> well they used to before qt
<OvenWerks> plasma has another way of setting scripts to run at exit but it is different enough from anything else we can probably install a script there and it won't affect xfce
<OvenWerks> I don't know how gnome does things, but I suspect a systemd unit would work in their case
<OvenWerks> in gnome's case at least some units quit on session stop so set something up to see that go away and call exit target (again with a delay)
<OvenWerks> I don't know which DEs this misses
<Eickmeyer[m]> Budgie and Cinnamon, I think.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Budgie, Cinnamon, and MATE.
 * OvenWerks is not knowing how they do things
<OvenWerks> It seems to me they are all related to some version of gnome, either dirrectly or as a modified fork.
<OvenWerks> gnome2 had no idea of systemd (lucky dogs)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Cinnamon is a fork of Gnome 3, Budgie is a rebase on Gnome, and MATE is a fork of Gnome 2 that now uses GTK 3.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Might have to ask #ubuntu-flavors how they do things, though I do see Wimpress lurking in here. He may be able to answer MATE questions.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I might be able to get bashfulrobot in here to talk about how Budgie does stuff. That should cover the actual flavors as they are now.
<OvenWerks> BTW, I have no problem with systemd, just the mess during switchover
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I can probably get ItzSwirlz to talk about Cinnamon.
<OvenWerks> Anyone who is using gnome3 probably does startup/exit in a similar way.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Not necessarily. Cinnamon forked before systemd was in wide use.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: for 2004 we just need to worry about xfce anyway.
<OvenWerks> any other DE we can recommend no to logout but to reboot instead
<OvenWerks> as we work on thing after 2002, backports will deal with it
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's a good point.
<OvenWerks> we can point out in our recomendation that the reason for reboot instead of logout is a bug in the way systemd is being used by "some" DEs (so we are not pointing fingers at any one)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Though, it would be nice to get as much covered as possible.
<OvenWerks> like evryone else, I have other fish to fry...
<OvenWerks> For each DE I even send a bug report to, I have to dl the iso, install, test, create some text files that show the problem then I can file a BUG report
<OvenWerks> That is a fair amount of time required
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah, I get that. I think just covering KDE, Gnome, and Xfce, in terms of workaround, might be good enough.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Not necessarily bug report because, lets face it, that's not going to get fixed in time for 20.04.
<OvenWerks> right, but it is not right or fair to the DE to use a hack without at least filing a bugreport to show why
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yeah. I say do the bug reports as you have time.
 * RikMills checks the room for existence
<RikMills> seems ok
<Eickmeyer[m]> RikMills: Right??? bashfulrobot's client is off its rocker.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: regarding kill signals, init (and maybe upstart?) seemed to have the idea that they would send a kill, wait for a timeout then kill -9 whatever was left. systemd does not seem to be set up that way... though it could just be a default setting in systemd.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: You could be right.
<bashfulrobot> Eickmeyer: hey 
<bashfulrobot> Looks like it was a line wrapping thing. 
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ah.
<Eickmeyer[m]> bashfulrobot: How does Budgie handle terminating applications on exit? We have a daemon (autojack) that runs as part of Ubuntu Studio Controls that we need to have exit upon logout, but currently isn't for some unknown reason.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks has more details as he's working on it.
<OvenWerks> bashfulrobot: after logout and back in loginctl list shows the old session is still running... and after yet another logout and in there are now three sessions running. In all the DEs we have tried so for this seems to be the case (xfce, plasma, lubuntu)
<OvenWerks> we noticed this because, the sound device remains locked by the first session
<OvenWerks> (jackdbus continues to run)
<OvenWerks> it tends to go un-noticed because logou and in is not really a thing with most people
<OvenWerks> we do have a solution at least for xfce4-session-manager. But would like to see the other flavours benefit as well.
<bashfulrobot> I have asked to see if David can jump in. I honestly am not sure why that would happen. 
<OvenWerks> the why is very obvous
<bashfulrobot> Hey fossfreedom. Thanks for jumping on. 
<fossfreedom> yw
<OvenWerks> with regard to session start up and stop, logind does two things, it starts the DE and it starts a systemd --user instance or session
<OvenWerks> when the DE quits, the systemd --user session persists
<OvenWerks>  and the second login may loose access to resources the first session now own.
<OvenWerks> using jouralctl --user -b shows the user session going through its targets to default (or beyond in some DEs) and then at de logout that session remains active
<OvenWerks> using loginctl shows that all login sessions since boot are still active.
<OvenWerks> we were wondering if Budgie has the same problem or if not how it has been avoided.
<OvenWerks> we noticed this because the audio device ends up locked by the first session and not available on another session
<fossfreedom> hmm - don't think we can be useful here.  We are using gnome-session to logout.  If its using systemd behind the scenes we aren't aware - gnome-session is handling it all for us.
<OvenWerks> When I looked ast xfce4-session-manager, I can see that for reboot, halt, poweroff, etc. a dbus message is sent to systemd, but for logout no.
<OvenWerks> fossfreedom: so you may have the same problem but be unaware of it.
<OvenWerks> is the gnome session that you use the same as gnome 3?
<fossfreedom> I'm missing the scrollback - so I'm not following what the issue is.
<fossfreedom> yes - same as GNOME3
<OvenWerks> good, if gnome3 gets fixed so would you.
<Eickmeyer[m]> fossfreedom: TL;DR: We have a daemon (autojack) that runs as part of Ubuntu Studio Controls that we need to have exit upon logout, but currently isn't for some unknown reason.
<OvenWerks> the problem is that logind sessions never exit
<OvenWerks> the reason is because the systemd session does not end, because xfce doesn't tell it to.
<fossfreedom> ok - understand.  thanks for the background
<OvenWerks> to check logout->login in a terminal type loginctl (aka loginctl list) and you should only see one session listed
<OvenWerks> if you see two, then the problem is there too.
<OvenWerks> hmm that was not clear
<OvenWerks> open the terminal after the second login :)
<OvenWerks> a thrid login will show three sessions etc.
<fossfreedom> on 20.04 UB logged out as one user - then logged into another user.  Ran loginctl list-sessions and it shows 1 session
<OvenWerks> good.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, then that means that Budgie and Gnome run as intended.
<OvenWerks> fossfreedom: thankyou for testing for us
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-01
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I think I may have found a way. I think all DEs use indicator-application.service. (would have to check)
<OvenWerks> It seems indicators-pre.target goes away after starting indicators... if I look for the right combination of targets and services running or not, I should be able to detect one of the indicator servoces dying and use that to que an exit.
<OvenWerks> Maybe indicator-sound.service would be better for us.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: if I come up with a fix for de stuff like this, which package should it end up in?
<OvenWerks> I am thinking of making a session_monitor.service that requires one of the indicators (which seem to die on their own when the session manager goes away) and use the stopping command to exit the session.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I'm pretty sure Gnome doesn't use any indicators.
<OvenWerks> so such a file should go in the setting package for a DE
<Eickmeyer[m]> I'm up for any solution. Let's give it a shot.
<OvenWerks> well, I have a service running sleep infinity... I just have to figure the command to get the session to fully die. I am trying a systemctl start first, but it may not run if it is not a human running it in which case I will have to try a dbus-send message.
<OvenWerks> Of course the update box was there so now I am waiting for the update to finish :)
<OvenWerks> cool, that was easy.
<OvenWerks> systemd[1473]: Reached target Shutdown.
<OvenWerks> and in autojack.log.old: 2020-01-31 21:46:05,298 - root - WARNING - Got signal number: 15 - Dying.
<OvenWerks> Very satisfying
<OvenWerks> ok Eickmeyer[m]: this seems quite solid. It will work for any DE that loads indicator-sound.service 
<OvenWerks> I need to put this file (and it's link) in some package. Which one?
<OvenWerks> and having done so there will need to be a postinstall that A: runs systemctl enable on the servce or B: creates a symlink. I would prefer to create the symlink as then it could go in /usr/lib/systemd/user/ rather than /etc/* which is more apropriate for a package solution.
<OvenWerks> this applies to studio.service as well though of course it for sure belongs in the -controls package.
<OvenWerks> I have looked over your paste of a gnome screen session and I am not sure what happens in the case of logout and in as a different user. It does not look like the systemd --user session goes all the way down. The second login does not pass through basic and default targets.
<OvenWerks> So while it may work ok when logging out and then back in as the same user, I wonder what it does with a different user.
<OvenWerks> quick note... we need to save the alsa settings for audio cards somehow. I keep getting the device turned allmost all the way down. I think it has to do with pulse turning it down in the other user's session.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: since it has to do directly with the operation of autojack, I'd say it belongs in the ubuntustudio-controls package.
<Eickmeyer[m]> As far as the alsa issue, I think that'
<Eickmeyer[m]> s a known bug in alsa.
<OvenWerks> ok, I will put it in -controls.
<OvenWerks> I think it would be possible to use the same idea to make gnome screen work too.
<OvenWerks> (properly)
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I switched out a few gnome tools for mate tools in the seed to match what Xubuntu has.
<OvenWerks> ok
<studiobot> <Eickmeyer> @azbulutlu Have you made a new default wallpaper yet? Or is that even on your radar?
<Eickmeyer[m]> I just figured it's February, less than a month to Feature Freeze, let's get a wallpaper contest going.
<Eickmeyer[m]> JackWinter: To answer your question, yes we have Ross Gammon (He's a Debian Developer) but he doesn't have very much time on his hands to deal with pushing stuff upstream. Anytime I do an RFP it's met with silence, so I've given up there.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I've done a lot of packaging just over the past year, and it's landed in Ubuntu.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Oh, wrong Jack.
<DalekSec> Well yes, RFP is simply "someone somewhere has interest", someone else has to actually see that and also have interest.
<Eickmeyer[m]> DalekSec: There lies the problem. Nobody sees it and/or has interest. I've had much better luck getting sponsorship on Ubuntu, especially now that teward is on the team. That said, I try not to bog him down except the once-in-a-while "OH CRAP WE'RE SCREWED".
<DalekSec> ...Sponsorship isn't the same as a RFP, the latter is "Will you package and maintain it for me?"
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, I've gone down the sponsorship road too with no avail.
<DalekSec> Ah, that's quite unfortunate. :/
<DalekSec> Sometimes one can have better luck if one can find a team as an umbrella to put it under, I've had some luck with that at least.
<teward> Well the thing about RFP is if you take maintainership and the wuality of the package is good in Debian its trivial to get sponsors
<teward> Case in point xca or vmfs6-tools which I maintain in Debian
<teward> I submit a new revision or version its sponsored within 48h max
<teward> But yeah same thing there, if theres an overarching team to stick it under that helps.
<teward> Sometimes you also have to be annoying in Debian to get a sponsor
<teward> :P
<teward> You also can specify multiple uploaders in Debian
<teward> So if you needed me with my evilness to help you can designate me an uploader
<teward> Or a maintainer
<teward> Sponsor finding in Debian is easy when you nag em on IRC like I do xD
<teward> Everything i get sponsored goes through Mentors too so it gets a little more visibility and automatic tests
<teward> But thats just a tiny segment of it :P
#ubuntustudio-devel 2020-02-02
<DalekSec> teward: Sounds like you're talking about RFS, not RFP.
<teward> True but RFP needs a maintainer.  With support I can maintain up there
<teward> But i did do an RFP lately that resulted in an RFS
<teward> Also done an ITP lately that wss brand new but also relevant
<teward> But i am late here which pakcages are we talking about?
<teward> (E: out of context ping)
<DalekSec> teward: Pretty much, curious about what packages in UbuntuStudio are missing from Debian.  There's at least julia, but what else?  This came up when someone was talking about the plans for 32bit going away, since Debian of course doesn't have plans for that yet.
<Eickmeyer[m]> teward: No, it's generalized. Just pretty much every package I maintain or have had sponsored isn't in Debian because reasons.
<teward> Raysession I think
<teward> Well one of the things with me helping spotcheck is it helps.  Put me up as a comaintainer it will assist a bit having an active maintainer.  I am hunting DM soon heh
<teward> That would give me the equiv of PPU for my stuff heh.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Well, Carla was the one that was pointed-out in #ubuntustudio.
<DalekSec> Carla, right.  ..What was julia?
<Eickmeyer[m]> >_>
<DalekSec> "Description-en: high-performance programming language for technical computing"  yeah, certainly not that.
<Eickmeyer[m]> !info carla
<ubottu> carla (source: carla): audio plugin host. In component universe, is optional. Version 2.0.0-0ubuntu1 (disco), package size 1552 kB, installed size 9346 kB
<Eickmeyer[m]> Newer version is in Focal.
<Eickmeyer[m]> That's one that I have direct PPU on.
<teward> Whereas every Ubuntu package in the repos I have upload rights on thanks to Core Dev
<teward> Which is why i help a lot xD
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: If you can take a look at .... ok forget that. Could you make the postinstall in -controls have the right name and do what the four lines in there say?
 * OvenWerks packaging understanding is not great.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I forgot to add to that file something that removes /etc/xdg/autostart/autojack.desktop if it exists
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Yeah, we could make a postinstall in -controls.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I put the file in there, can you look at it?
<Eickmeyer[m]> Sure.
 * Eickmeyer[m] git pulls
<OvenWerks> I don't know if it need a #!sh kind of deal or not.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Yep, definitely needed #! /bin/sh or /bin/bash, whichever you prefer.
<OvenWerks> either should work
<Eickmeyer[m]> Also, probably best to do a "systemctl session-monitor.service" and a "systemctl studio.service" as a best practice.
<OvenWerks> maybe not.
<Eickmeyer[m]> "systemctl enable session-monitor.service" and "systemctl enable studio.service" rather.
<OvenWerks> no the ln -s does that.
<Eickmeyer[m]> It effectively does the symbolic link you're going for.
<OvenWerks> but it puts it in the wrong place
<Eickmeyer[m]> Hmmm....
<Eickmeyer[m]> You're right.
<Eickmeyer[m]> I failed to see there's no /etc/ in that path.
<OvenWerks> packages mostly should not be putting stuff in /etc/ which is a local config
<Eickmeyer[m]> systemd is an exception to that, but that doesn't apply here.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Also, best practice for packaging is to put those two lines in a "ubuntustudio-controls.links" file
<Eickmeyer[m]> Though, maybe not in this case since we want that to be in order.
<Eickmeyer[m]> i.e. the two items are directly related (the mkdir and the ln)
<OvenWerks> Well if the ln can have a -* that says create directories as needed
<Eickmeyer[m]> Nah, I like the way you've done it.
<OvenWerks> doesn't seem so.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Exactly, I don't see a way ln creates directories unless they're links.
<Eickmeyer[m]> hard links at that.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Pushed the change. Was there more?
<OvenWerks> build and test I guess :)
<OvenWerks> done
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: I will do an install and then load it and see what other things may need tweaking
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok, let me know.
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: Oh, and the file extension was supposed to be .postinst not .postinstall, so I renamed it.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Easy fix.
<OvenWerks> goood
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I like the UI of -controls.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Do you feel like the tablet stuff is ready?
<OvenWerks> no
<OvenWerks> I have set part of that aside to take care of some of these orther problems.
<OvenWerks> I can now work on that.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Cool. So the autostart stuff is finished then?
<OvenWerks> I think so... I will have to check. I need to reprint Studio to a usb stick so I can reinstall it and run this package against it.
<OvenWerks> Hmm maybe not, I think I have one still.
<Eickmeyer[m]> Ok
<DalekSec> teward: You're core dev?  Will you clean up popcon after Simon's bad merge several cycles back?  The package is entirely broken.
 * Eickmeyer[m] grabs popcorn... not the package.
<DalekSec> That's the lazy shortname for it anyway. :D
<teward> remind me what popcorn is lol?
<teward> popcon*
<teward> because not sure if I will be able to 'fix' heh
<OvenWerks> git reset --hard
<OvenWerks> git push --force
<OvenWerks> Actually git squash can do good things too
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: got the wrong file name :(
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: You or me?
<OvenWerks> prolly me
<Eickmeyer[m]> OvenWerks: I'll blame you. :)
<Eickmeyer[m]> Seriously, though, I just threw the #! line in there and renamed it.
<OvenWerks> Me then. Too much copy and paste
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: indicater-sound seems to have been removed from studio.... I thought it was there a few days ago.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: however, it appears it has been dropped upstream (xfce4-indicator-plugin perhaps had a dep) because I can't find any huge difference from B to F.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: we seed indicator-messages, so we have more control over that... 
<krytarik> OvenWerks: https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/ubuntu-seeds/+git/ubuntustudio/commit/?id=cd81fcd98228f313268493696ed2446e8ab89f30 - jfyi while Eickmeyer[m] certainly remembers that flipping about of stuff too still.
<OvenWerks> krytarik: Ah, that would be it. No matter it is already fixed.
<OvenWerks> I will test the fix tomorrow.
<OvenWerks> Eickmeyer[m]: That does work... except... I think it kills xfce4-session-manager before it finishes... so a reboot call doesn't happen you just end up logged out.
