#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-02
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<artnay> hello
<artnay> how are you guys? ready to do some serious wiki work?
<lukacu> hello artnay
<lukacu> not really ... i must study ... :(
<artnay> oh :(
<artnay> mhz pinged me yesterday but I wasn't here
<artnay> and he didn't tell what he was planning
<lukacu> i will check later if there is anything i can do but right now i must learn some meaningless stuff ;)
<klep[a] s> meeting on soon... :)
<artnay> pong mhz 
<mhz> ping artnay 
<mhz> ?
<artnay> mhz: yeah, you pinged me yesterday. something about wiki? :)
<mhz> hehe, short term memory only :(
<mhz> sorry
<mhz> :)
<artnay> sorry, I was kind of buzy yesterday and couldn't hang with you guys :(
<mhz> np
<mhz> everyone is busy 
<artnay> although I wanted to, but my gf was like "how many hours do you spend with ubuntu every day? more than with me?" :D
<mhz> heheheh
<artnay> and then I was in a situation where I couldn't say anything to defend myself
<mhz> artnay: my wife says even more terrible stuff to me :)
<artnay> and I had to leave :)
<artnay> I've tried to make her to use Ubuntu but no luck yet :(
<mhz> what does she do?
<artnay> nothing special, but she and her family still needs shockwave and some other programs that don't run in WINE
<artnay> but at least she's using fx
* klepas loves being in 8 weeks holidays with a free broadband connection and a family of FOSS users
<artnay> klepas: piss off now! ;D
* mhz congrats klepas and his family!
<artnay> 8 weeks... I can't recall when was the last time I had that long vacation
* mhz hasnt had any in 4 years
<artnay> no, seriously. now relax before you get into college and do some Ubuntu artwork during your holiday :)
<klepas> normally i have 6 over the summer hols
<klepas> but i graduated from high school, so this year only they were nice and slapped on another 2
<klepas> ;)
<klepas> and yep, i've been doing something productive each and every day so far
<klepas> this is currently turning out to be the best holidays i've ever had
<artnay> I'm doing a new background today
<klepas> :)
<artnay> well at least I'm supposed to do... I have a photo already, so just slam Ubuntu logo and text into it and do some colour replacing
<artnay> shouldn't take long
<klepas> hehe
<klepas> give us a link of the original
<artnay> speaking of backgrounds... what about the default background? maybe it shouldn't be a photo so that it would fit with Usplash/GDM etc.
<artnay> I don't have it, it's on my harddisk
<klepas> ah, that's right, using xp, huh?
<artnay> yeah, I'm still at work
* klepas looks lovingly at his suse machine :)
<klepas> lol
<mhz> hehehe
<artnay> mhz: so, the wiki structure? you haven't commented what I proposed
<artnay> about the last changes and the overall layout of /Artwork
<mhz> I have only read it, true. I haven't commented it
<mhz> My feeling is subpages are too dangerous to play with
<mhz> unless
<klepas> oh, by the way, i think we will have quite an attendance
<artnay> so what would you suggest?
<klepas> for the meeting
<klepas> should have a fair few extra people joining us :)
<artnay> klepas: that's good, thanks for spreading the information :)
<mhz> we have nly one level of sbpages and they keep the CamelCase syntax
<mhz> if no CamelCase is kept, then autolinking will brake
<artnay> umh, I didn't quite understand. :o so we have only one subcategory on /Artwork, right?
<klepas> artnay: i estimate... about 5-10 extra people
<artnay> like clicking a link will bring a new page with text etc., no links at the moment
<mhz> artnay: I'll explain
<mhz> Wikis rely on one big power they have: Autolinking. Autolinking means that whwnerver I am writing and I place MauricioHernandez (that's camel case) when I save the page, that CamelCase will direct users to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MauricioHernandez
<mhz> right?
<artnay> it is
<klepas> mhz: ohh, i saw today
<klepas> mhz: congrats on becoming a member :)
<mhz> s, continuing with explanation
<mhz> klepas: ?
<klepas> community council
<klepas> dunno when it last held their meetings
<klepas> but i think i remember seeing your name somewhere
<mhz> if when writing I place MauricioHernandez/Artwork instead of MauricioHernandez/TheArtwork,
<klepas> under "accepted new members"
<klepas> or something
<mhz> the first will not create any link. The second will.
<mhz> klepas: oh, yes! I am very happy, thx
<artnay> klepas: it was some time ago, I read a log where they welcomed mhz and discussed about automatix licensing etc.
<klepas> nice
<klepas> mhz: nervous during the meeting?
<artnay> mhz: now is there a reason why only the 2nd example would creat a link?
<mhz> klepas: yup, very much but on the other hand, after 6 months contributing... 
<mhz> :)
<artnay> now if there was /Artwork which would link to /*buntuArtwork and links to projects on this page, would it be too difficult?
<mhz> artnay: yes, Wiki syntax is CamelCase to create a link
<mhz> unless, you use [[CamelCase/Camel] ] 
<mhz> which is longer and less probable users will remember that when editing
<mhz> the nice feature about CamelCase is that you just write
<artnay> but I see no other way to handle this artwork/wiki issue. all artwork projects should be accessible by using only one page (/Artwork). /Artwork should cover all neccessary information BUT it shouldn't contain anything that wouldn't be accessible from UbuntuArtwork, KubuntuArtwork etc.
<artnay> so people could bookmark their favourite distro's artwork project and they wouldn't be forced to use /Artwork
<mhz> artnay: to make things crystal-clear... could you make a txt doc or other format where you graphically  show what you have in mind?
<mhz> maybe i am missing one of yur points
<artnay> and there hasn't been any other propositions (which isn't good)
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal should cover it
<artnay> when I click /UbuntuArtwork link on /Artwork, it would bring me a list of all projects related to Ubuntu artwork (like /ArtworkTodoList is now)
<artnay> but the problem is that all *buntus want to have their own style, so every /*buntuArtwork page should cover the subjects (unified structure, that's what I'm talking about)
<mhz> ohhh
<mhz> we can fix that 'free-creating-page-style by proposing users to use CategoryArtwork at the end of each single page
<mhz> this way, when we visit the page CategoryArtwork, this will list automatically all pages including that link (CategoryArtwork)
<artnay> yes, therefore we should create a working structure that would be used in all projects
<artnay> at the moment there are lots of artwork related sites that aren't listed in proper places, don't have "Artwork" in a title etc.
<mhz> yes, but my fear is how we 'convince' people
<artnay> so it's quite hard to track this pages
<mhz> indeed
<artnay> s/this/these
<artnay> convince people of what?
<mhz> ok, let me get this streight
<mhz> artnay: you propose https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeams ?
<mhz> artnay: you propose https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkWork
<mhz> or a different approach?
<artnay> what's /ArtworkWork?
<artnay> ArtworkTodoProposal is currently a temporariry page to access some artwork related pages
<artnay> and /ArtworkTeams is for what?
<artnay> now how should I guess that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArtwork will cover Kubuntu's logo?
<artnay> it should be something like /Artowork -> /KubuntuArtwork -> KubuntuArtworkResources or something similiar
<artnay> I don't really know
<artnay> it would be more logical at least for me
<artnay> and /UbuntuArtwork shouldn't be about logos and palettes etc.
<mhz> so, if we have https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuArtwork page how many SubPages do you consider from it?
<artnay> it should cover links to all Ubuntu artwork related pages
<artnay> that would be the main page
<artnay> it would have links to other pages, TOC in the bottom of the page
<artnay> like, umh, Projects (a similiar list to /ArtworkTodoList) and maybe something else
<artnay> every *buntuArtwork projects covers different projects, the approach to artwork differs etc.
<artnay> some cleanup would be needed in /Artwork and with my grammar :)
<mhz> heheh
<mhz> we'll need many people to understand the pros and cons of such organizing wiki pages :(
<mhz> that is also difficult
* mhz needs to think big deal on this
<artnay> it surely is. but nobody has proposed a better approach
<mhz> artnay: i like and share your concern very much
<artnay> wiki is our main project at the moment. we can't actually think that people will contribute if they don't have a clue what to do
<mhz> yup
<artnay> we could propose that every *buntu will create a /*buntuArtwork page that would contain similiar topics as mentioned in ArtworkTodoList
<klepas> gnite
<artnay> bye klepas 
<klepas> :)
* mhz_idle bbs
<klepas> see you in 7 hours and 25 minutes
<klepas> 24 minutes
<klepas> :)
<artnay> ok
<klepas> ;)
<artnay> I will most probably not be here then
<artnay> but try to create something out of wiki :o
<mhz_idle> artnay: stiil there?
<artnay> mhz_idle: I just came home. what's up?
<mhz_idle> I will think of a 'tree' of logic Pages for artwork related stuff and general to all atwork teams
<mhz_idle> then will compare it to yours and we can set a proposal to use subpages in the less cases as possible
<mhz_idle> is that right for you?
<artnay> mhz_idle: that's what I've been asking, comments and suggestions :)
<artnay> thanks mhz
<artnay> maybe I should do my own
<artnay> but guests are coming soon... so I have to do some cleaning before that
<mhz_idle> hehehe, mee too
<mhz_idle> I am cooking now
<artnay> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-December/000558.html
<artnay> what do you think?
<artnay> AUC would be the primary place to submit ubuntu artwork, also *projectname*DiscussionArtwork could be used as well to attach files
<artnay> *projectname*Artwork would be sort of status page, dependencies, links to resources and guides that are related to this project etc.
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodo
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> :o
<artnay> can we get some Artwork grepping on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges ?
<mhz> artnay: ping
<mhz> lukacu: ping
<artnay> hey mhz 
<lukacu> hello
<artnay>  /ArtworkTodoProposal updated
<mhz> artnay: hey, good to see ya here so late, i guess
<mhz> artnay: please see http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MauricioHernandez
<artnay> you too
<mhz> at the bottom om it, 'navegation macro'
<mhz> will help your ideas so subpages get listed 'automatically'?
<lukacu> mhz: you can write macros in moinmoin ?
<mhz> yup
<mhz> Moin is 100% python
<lukacu> nice ... now, if only i knew python ;)
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> me too?
<mhz> !
<lukacu> well i have every intention to learn it but there is just no time
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> I will start reading about making themes for XFCE before python and XML
<lukacu> yeah ... priorities. i have my queue too
<mhz> mine is endless
<lukacu> :)
<artnay> hey mhz 
<artnay> did you read this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<artnay> layout changed and now it sort of has a structure
<mhz> artnay: please see http://wiki.edubuntu.org/MauricioHernandez
<mhz> will help your ideas so subpages get listed 'automatically'?
<artnay> mhz: so could we grep -i Artwork https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RecentChanges
<mhz> hehehehe
<artnay> as "news" ?
<artnay> well you get the idea :)
<mhz> People can just subscribe to any page they like and will get mail notifications plus a nice DIFF inside the mail body
<artnay> yeah, that's true
<mhz> so, if people susbcribe to /Artwork
<artnay> but there lots of people who haven't signed up
<mhz> yup
<mhz> could /Artwork become UbuntuArtwork instead?
<artnay> oh noes, I've lost verbs :|
<artnay> mhz: why?
<artnay>  /UbuntuArtwork should cover Ubuntu-related projects
<mhz> hmmmm
<mhz> could we make standard ArtWork instead of plain Artwrok ?
<mhz> and then keep CamelCase l;inking
<artnay> what do you mean?
<artnay> sorry, I'm not good at wikis :| *goes rtfm*
<mhz> artnay: np
<mhz> if we use http/Artwrok instead http/ArtWork
<mhz> the 1st will not be considered link when you edit a page and place that word
<mhz> the 2nd will be a link inemediately
<artnay> so what should be done and how? how's that preventing us?
<artnay> what would you suggest?
<artnay> it would be great to have wiki in a better shape by tomorrow
<artnay> name it ArtWork?
<artnay> that's all? or do you have anything better to offer? :)
<artnay> mhz: and can we get that "grepped" version of RecentChanges? then just add link "Recent changes in Artwork pages" below the news section
<mhz> nope
<artnay> that would help people who haven't signed and just want to see what's happening
<artnay> it would be very useful
<mhz> artnay: i'll ask my friends in #moin
<mhz> but I dont think so
<artnay> well that's strange
<artnay> it's kind of basic operation, don't you think? :o
<mhz> artnay: by standard, I mean, that ArtWork should then be used everywhere in wiki instead of Artwork
<mhz> or viceversa
<mhz> but if we do the latter
<mhz> to make it a link we'll have to write [/Artwork]  everytiem
<artnay> understood
<artnay> it's all the same to me, what matters is usability
<mhz> IMHO, usability is ArtWork
<artnay> but we really could have some use for the list of recent changes in *ArtWork* pages
<mhz> unless in english, artwork is just one word
<mhz> In spanish, it is 2 word
<artnay> well Artwork would be used only on one page
<artnay> no... ArtWork :)
<mhz> artnay: it's possible only if we touch Moin code (python)
<mhz> hmm
<mhz> yes,  but everytime we edit pages on any content, we'll refer to Artwork or ArtWork... then it'll matter
<artnay> but that's just a minor issue now, I think
<artnay> we need the structure first
<artnay> then build it, at this point we need a decision on that
<artnay> (wheter we use Artwork or ArtWork)
<artnay> how many people will attend tomorrow? do you guys have any idea?
<lukacu> nope ...it will be a complete surprise for me
<artnay> mhz: I didn't know CamelCase is case-sensitive although that's quite obvius */me goes hit his head into a wall :|*
<mhz> artnay: hehehehehe
<mhz> dont be hard on yourself
<mhz> at least, wait until AFTER the meeting
<mhz> we need you there
<mhz> :D
<lukacu> lol
<artnay> I just stared at what you wrote and was like "umh"
<artnay> this is one of those situations when you feel yourself dummy
<artnay> ;)
<artnay> anyways, it wouldn't matter if we think about it
<artnay> umh
<artnay> now what was that... nevermind
<artnay> "as a dummy" and the 2nd one would be... just renew the wiki! :D
<artnay> should we post an announcement to ubuntuforums?
<mhz> artnay: a post to announce the meeting?
<mhz> sure
* mhz never goes to forums though
<klepas> moin moin
<lukacu> moin klepas
<klepas> meeting soon :)
<lukacu> yeah ... a bit more than a day to go :)
<mhz> moin klepas 
* mhz can't wait to see how many of the 8 votes show up
<mhz> :D
<klepas> well there might even be more people that a not in the art team showing
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-03
<lukacu> night all
<artnay> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=108761
<artnay> hey guys
<lukacu> hey artnay
<artnay>  http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=108761
<artnay> the first one would be sweet if it was rounded
<artnay> I posted this a bit late, but still: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=109635
<lukacu> moin klepas
<artnay> hello
<artnay> klepas: now there's an announcement on ubuntuforums
<artnay> and btw, take a look at this: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=108761
<klepas> cool
<klepas> i like that
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:artnay] : Artwork Team is gathering today at UTC 23.00! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<klepas> ah, thanks :)
<artnay> hey manicka 
<klepas> moin moin
<manicka> artnay :)
<artnay> have looked at the wiki?
<manicka> aye, I'll try to be at the meeting later today
<artnay> manicka: where did you get the information on meeting?
<manicka> hmm, let me check
<manicka> now I remember, email to ubuntu-marketing list
<artnay> oh, ok. I didn't even know it's there
<manicka> the email or the list?
<artnay> an invitation
<manicka> invite came form 
<manicka> Invite came from Mauricio Hernandez Z. from Chile locoteam
<artnay> he's been busy :)
<manicka> bbs
<klep[a] s> nice
<klepas> Mauricio has really done a lot of mailing of late :)
<artnay> indeed
<klepas> i have to remember to thank him too for it
<lukacu> 2 hours 15 minutes till the meeting :)
<bachler> ..
<lukacu> ...
<lllmanulll> ...?
<lukacu> :)
* lllmanulll coughs
<lllmanulll> Huh, the meeting is in 1:15 or 0:15 ? :)
<lukacu> 1:15
<lukacu> i think
<lllmanulll> thanks :)
<lukacu> use: 'date -u' in terminal to get utc time
<libervisco> 1:15 your time you mean?
<lllmanulll> no no, I mean the time until meeting :)
<libervisco> 23:00 UTC is exactly midnight here :)
<lllmanulll> 1:10 now
<libervisco> oh I see
<lllmanulll> Well, I live in France, I guess it's midnight for me too
<libervisco> yeah, GMT +1
<bachler> alexander@daim:~$ date -u
<bachler> Thu Dec 29 21:51:13 UTC 2005
<bachler> alexander@daim:~$
<lllmanulll> Anybody here in charge of art.ubuntu.com ?
<lukacu> i am AUC admin ... one of them
<lllmanulll> I got a wallpaper pending since a very long time ago
<lllmanulll> Ah, great :)
<lllmanulll> My username is Manu
<lllmanulll> I made this small "Ubuntu|cities" series
<lukacu> yes ... i know ... there are about 30 wallpaper submissions pending ...
<lllmanulll> not much, but only 2 out of three are available :)
<lukacu> the problem is that we just dont have guidelines what to accept
<lllmanulll> Well, I made 3 and 2 got accepted
<lllmanulll> http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/ubuntu/61
<lllmanulll> http://art.ubuntu.com/backgrounds/ubuntu/63
<lukacu> i will check your submission
<lllmanulll> They're not masterpieces, but I think the idea is nice :)
<lllmanulll> The third one is Venice
<lllmanulll> Thanks a lot
<lukacu> i agree ... the idea is really cool
<lllmanulll> great :) Would be cool to make a full series if other people want to contribute
<lukacu> well ... i see the problem .... both files are way over 500k ... it is the unwritten size limit :)
<lukacu> we need to write this things in the faq
<libervisco> 1024x768 may be better
<libervisco> smaller
<lukacu> it will hopefully be done after the meeting ... the faq and guidelines
<lllmanulll> Should I make JPEG versions instead ?
<lllmanulll> Or choose a higher compression rate for the PNGs ?
<lukacu> yes ... that would be ok
<lukacu> do whatever you like ... as long as the quality remains ok and the size under 500k (maybe even 1000k would be acceptable)
<lukacu> the limit is not really set ... but 3mb is way too much
<lukacu> about the series of those images ... we can choose a name for the series and then create all wallpapers with same desing
<lukacu> i really like the idea
<lukacu> maybe even ubuntu calendar package of some kind
<trevorv> any ideas if there will be a Xubuntu section on art.ubuntu.com anytime soon?
<lukacu> lllmanulll: i will then reject your current submission if it is ok with you ... then you resubmit smaller images? ok?
<lukacu> trevorv: that is a question for our supreme admin, henrik
<trevorv> ok :) I certainly hope so. Anyone know if there are any Xubuntu devels at the meeting tonight?
<lukacu> there are many things to be done at AUC ... we will discuss some at the meeting
<lukacu> nope
<lukacu> dont know
<lllmanulll> lukacu: Sure, no problem
<lllmanulll> I'll make a smaller file
<lukacu> lllmanulll: after the meeting we can discuss this world cities project... or even at the meeting, but it is a bit late to add it to the agenda
<lllmanulll> lukacu: Well, we can discuss it if we run out of subjects ^^
<lukacu> lol
<lukacu> im sure that wont happen
<libervisco> Pascal Klein called for these meetings, right?
<lukacu> yes
<libervisco> is this the first one?
<lukacu> well there was a meeting somewhere in july iirc... but that was 3 people chatting a bit about the team
<artnay> in the nick of time... hello
<lukacu> hi artnay
<artnay> mhz and klepas, where are they? :o
<lukacu> dont know
<libervisco> well that's great
<libervisco> He was talking something about needing better organization so this is a good step :)
<lukacu> :)
<libervisco> btw, I'm not a member, he just invited me to come here 
<lukacu> no problem
<artnay> http://hdr.unk.fi/~artnay/leaf_by_machine6featUbuntu.png
<lukacu> libervisco: you are from croatia? it says so in your profile ....
<libervisco> lukacu, yep
<lukacu> cool ... i am from slovenia :)
<libervisco> hehe.. nice :)
<libervisco> we're neighbours then :)
<libervisco> heh, only klepas missing 
<libervisco> I think :P
<libervisco> Hi mhz 
<lukacu> mhz hello
<mhz> hi all
<mhz> I have bad news :(
<lukacu> ?
<mhz> I have been trying to solve this family issue for the last hour and a half, unsuccessfully
<mhz> so I wont attent the meeting
<lukacu> ouch...
<mhz> I am sorry
<mhz> very sorry
<lukacu> :(
<mhz> and apologize for this murphy
<libervisco> ah...
<Yetzero> hi guys
<ptomes> hi all
<libervisco> Hi Yetzero 
<libervisco> no problem mhz 
<mhz> I'll read the logs form #ubuntu-meeting though
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-04
<lukacu> yeah ... hope somebody will assemble meeting minutes too
<mhz> lukacu: my only 2 cents would be we base a structure similar to artnay's regarding wiki
<mhz> but
<mhz> you all could agree on the 'areas' wiki needs to be structured
<mhz> I already know we want every flavour artwork to be easily indentified
<lukacu> ok
<mhz> but the main need in order to work on a wiki structure is to know exactly how many areas we need to cover (example: every flavour artwork will have: *Logo, *Documentation *Wallpapers *Themes *Backgrounds, etc)
<mhz> AT this very moment, we can't do what artnay wants (it's a very ggod idea but not possible yet) to have the 'grep -i' thing
<mhz> so, unfortunately, RecentChanges will list each change made to ANY page or team page
<mhz> However, we can encourqage people who are interested on getting news fro art or contributing to it, to subscribe to pages
<mhz> and they 'll get email notification per change
<mhz> including a nice text diff and the user who did such change
<mhz> lukacu: again, sorry, I have to leave. I'll keep this box open though in case I come to a solution in this family thing
<lukacu> ok ... no problem mhz
<lukacu> i hope you will solve the problems
<mhz_idle> mee too
<libervisco> hm.. we're 10 minutes in
<Yetzero> So which issues will we discuss in this meeting?
<Yetzero> which points
<trevorv> i think this is supposed to be in #ubuntu-meeting, no?
<lukacu> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2005-December/000543.html
<lukacu> agenda
<Yetzero> thanks
<lukacu> and go to the #ubuntu-meeting
<ptomes> thank you
<Burgwork> who is viper500 on the wiki?
<lukacu> Viper550 ?
<Burgwork> yep
<Burgwork> oops
<klepas> he's not listed on the /ArtworkTeam page
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:Viper550] : The meeting party is over, ready for an after-party?
<Viper550> Welcome people from the meeting, which just ended
<libervisco> or not
<libervisco> they just raised an universe artwork package idea
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:Viper550] : The meeting is in process, #ubuntu-meeting
<Viper550> Bachler, PM's are blocked for me, I'm not registered, but I'll find it@
<bachler> oh..
<bachler> k
<Viper550> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/attachments/20051226/f7c89d99/ubuntuglow-0001.jpg
<Viper550> Here is the infamous wallpaper
<Burgwork> Viper550, too red at the bottom, but looks good
<Viper550> It's brown silly!
<Burgwork> the bottom is quite red
<bachler> Viper550: i think that (if the default brown is changed) you wally needs to be adjusted to fit it
<Viper550> Don't forget, the top matches up with our new Metacity theme (ClearLooks 2)
<Viper550> Also, I've got an idea for a new default font!
<mhz_away> RE
<mhz_away> re
<mhz> klep[a] s: ping
<mhz> oh, sorry
<mhz> well, I'd like to add that we will have Edubuntu ArtWork as well
<mhz> :)
<artnay> g morning. guess who overslept? :)
<artnay> klep[a] s: will you discuss about the communication issue with canonical?
<artnay> we didn't make much decisions yesterday (wait, it was today), it was quite a mess :o
<artnay> but at least we agreed to have that unified wiki structure. although nobody promised to take care of Kub... and Xub...
<artnay> if we get /UbuntuArtwork right, I guess people might be interested to have similiar page for their favourite *buntu. so, did we promise to have /UbuntuArtwork done within five days? :)
<artnay> I'm quite disappointed that there wasn't much Artwork Team members online
<manicka> hmmm, as someone new to the team, I found the meeting quite hard to follow
<manicka> to many individual agendas
<artnay> manicka: it was, some people didn't follow the agenda
<manicka> agreed
<manicka> you did your best though
<manicka> :)
<artnay> well I can't say so... I was on the verge of being late...
<artnay> so I wasn't properly prepared
<artnay> sorry for that
<manicka> maybe some stricter meeting guidelines would help
<manicka> one person directing the meeting and sticking to the agenda religously
<manicka> just a thought
<artnay> I was surprised to see which topics people discussed
<artnay> I mean, it's ok to raise some issues above others. still /Artwork and the context behind that is the 1st priority
<artnay> it's something we depend on
<artnay> organized place for information
<artnay> there are lots of artists around the ubuntu community, we'd need them to use wiki
<artnay> I think that's the only reasonable way to co-operate on artwork
<manicka> sorry, I was daydreaming
<artnay> that's quite common
<manicka> I agree, the wiki needs to be the focus for organisation
<manicka> but in such a format 
<manicka> that is useable by the team
<manicka> moin moin can be difficult for some to get the hang of
<artnay> not just the artwork team, anyone who visits /Artwork should get a clear picture what's happening, how can one contribute and visitors have to find necessary guides to do things
<manicka> yes, agreed
<manicka> if we get the ubuntu part right and functioning effectively, the others (kubuntu etc) should follow suit
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:artnay] : Next Artwork Team meeting will be on the 5th of January, UTC 23.00. - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<manicka> hehe, I'll be in fiji for that one
<artnay> manicka: I think that will get done quite automatically if just get the Ubuntu part done right
<manicka> yes
<artnay> as you said :)
<artnay> anyways, have you identified to NickServ? freenode almost requires that
<manicka> yes
<artnay> I hope we're able to raise the communication issue in the next CC
<manicka> I'm a regular on lots of other channels
<klep[a] s> hi you two :)
<manicka> not sure when the next cc will be
<artnay> hey klepas 
<manicka> wiki says sometime in January
<manicka> hi klepas
<artnay> manicka: that's quite late, don't you think?
<klepas> i've just gone through what the two of you talked about before i joined
<artnay> klepas: don't forget to read the meeting log, too
<klepas> i'm sorry that the meeting was so disorganised
<klepas> artnay: i know, i'm writing the minutes
<artnay> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
<artnay> That collaboration depends on good relationships between developers.
<manicka> the next cc meeting was due for next week but it doesn't look like that will happen
<artnay> and currently we don't have much relations to canonical...
<klepas> that is something i am going to clean up
<manicka> have many in the artwork team signed the CoC?
<klepas> no point putting a lot of effort into something that won't be used
<artnay> manicka: only a few AFAIK
<klepas> manicka: i have not as of yet :)
<klepas> i will when i apply for membership
<manicka> it's a fairly painless process
<klepas> yea
<manicka> and shows the cc/developers etc that you are on board... so to speak
<klepas> i will be sharing my public keys at keysigning at LCA [http://lca2006.linux.org.au/] 
<klepas> yep
<klepas> manicka: i want to sign it along with my membership
<manicka> hmm, fair enough
<klepas> but i am afraid i have not been been around long enough.
<klepas> so it might take a little longer
<artnay> Members of the Ubuntu community need to work together effectively, and this code of conduct lays down the "ground rules" for our cooperation.
<klepas> but in the meantime, signed or unsigned i'm following the CoC. :)
<manicka> I often wonder what the definition of 'long enough' is to the cc
<klepas> artnay: once the meeting minutes are finished, where ought I stick them on the wiki?
<klepas> somewhere under /Artwork/Meetings
<artnay> klepas: yeah, and a link to that at News section of /Artwork
<klepas> yep
<artnay> but we should write a list what we agreed on yesterday
<klepas> i'm going to spend my late evening and morning on that
<klepas> yep
<artnay> can you do that as well?
<artnay> I'm supposed to do some other work meanwhile :p
<klepas> cooperatively
<klepas> yea
<klepas> which list in particular?
<artnay> list of things that were discussed and what we decided
<klepas> oh
<klepas> so essentially minutes?
<artnay> sort of
<artnay> we should also publicize a log of that meeting
<klepas> yep
<klepas> i can do that too
<klepas> i'll start working on the wiki tomorrow
<artnay> you know where to find them?
<klepas> yep
<klepas> sure do
<artnay> I thought so
<klepas> ~fabbione/logs
<artnay> we witnesses yesterday that people haven't read /Artwork
<artnay> -s+d
<artnay> so that would be a requirement before attending the next meeting
<klepas> yep
<manicka> good idea
<artnay> only that way we can keep the discussion more organized
<manicka> agreed
<klepas> i think before the next meeting we need to select someone amongst ourselves (think maurico, lukacu, yourselves and maybe even i) to steer the meeting along the agenda
<klepas> which i will write up separately
<klepas> based upon /Artwork
<klepas> also, i'd really appreciate maurico's moin wiki tutorial right now
<klepas> because i'm going to have to stick to the simple stuff otherwise =\
<artnay> I tried to create some discussion yesterday but I wasn't pleased about the results
<artnay> at first I thought you and mhz couldn't attend for some reason
<klepas> sorry, mum woke me up
<artnay> so I was like "whaaaaat is this" :)
<klepas> i set my alarm clock to 9:30
<klepas> and i turned it off, and dozed again ;)
<klepas> mum came in and told me i am missing my meeting
<artnay> duh!
<artnay> I did the same to my both alarm clocks this morning
<klepas> mums are great
<artnay> ok, so "stfu and keep on agenda" in the next meeting
<artnay> what's not marked into agenda can be discussed on this channel
<klepas> yes
<klepas> or proposed in the end if we have time
<klepas> frankly at this point we are so poorly disorganised that discussing individual artwork is not and cannot be on the agenda
<klepas> we need to fix the way the art team works first
<artnay> I thought that was quite clear
<klepas> obviously not
<manicka> to some
<klepas> like you mentioned earlier, some people did not even glance at /Artwork
<artnay> yeah, never under- or overestimate people
<klepas> expect the unexpected?
<klepas> :)
<klepas> anyhow
<klepas> i could do with some help
<klepas> to start this artwork thing
<klepas> could you make /Artwork not point to the proposal
<klepas> but to an empty page
<artnay> klepas: ask mhz to do that
<klepas> which I would be happy to start upon in a few hours time
<artnay> I actually placed it as /Artwork a long time ago
<klepas> reason i ask is because i wouldn't know how ;)
<klepas> Alrighty, i'll give Maurico a buzz
<artnay> but it was so disorganized then so mhz had to redirect it
<artnay> hey lllmanulll 
<klepas> i'll be back in a few minutes
<artnay> and one thing we have to make clear is the co-operation with desktop team
<artnay> I know we're doing duplicate work
<artnay> and with current resources, that shouldn't happen
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam - take a look at their purpose & vision
<artnay> Artwork Team was the first one to do some of those tasks, but as it failed before breezy, Desktop Team was formed
<artnay> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=107022
<artnay> we should try to answer some basic questions
<klepas> i'm going to have to come back later
<klepas> needed offline
<klepas> be back in about an hour-ish :)
<artnay> I'm reading this DE war at OSNews: http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=13118&offset=0&rows=15&threshold=-1
<klepas> artnay: interesting
<klepas> a lot of the points he mentions are quite correct
<klepas> however i think the aggressive stance it takes is wrong
<artnay> it's inevitable when it comes to F/OSS DEs :)
<lllmanulll> hey artnay :)
<artnay> hi
<artnay> so what are your thoughts on the meeting?
<artnay> lllmanulll: aren't you involved in desktop team as well? do you have any idea what the DT purpose & vision means?
<manicka> my thoughts?
<artnay> manicka: yours too :)
<manicka> my thoughts, well I've already mentioned that many didn't seem to be aware of the agenda and this resulted in general mayhem
<manicka> but generally
<manicka> the things I was looking for didn't come out in the meeting that I could see
<manicka> what is the groups purpose
<artnay> manicka: what are you looking for?
<manicka> how does it function
<manicka> how can people contribute effectively
<manicka> are the groups efforts effective in the grand scheme of things
<manicka> ???
<manicka> the wiki discussion was a good start
<manicka> but needs more work
<manicka> something to present at the mext meeting should clarify the wiki discussion better
<klepas> manicka: that is the idea
<klepas> artnay, mhz and i will work on the wiki
<klepas> Andy Fitzsimon, lukacu and I will report on AUC
<klepas> i might even set up a CMS on my local server and then open some ports for you lot to take a look at a proposed CMS for AUC
<klepas> and generally get the organisation and facilities to produce art back up
<klepas> and then we're going to pull out the gimp and inkscape :)
<manicka> sounds good..... like a purpose is developing
<lllmanulll> artnay : yep, i'm part of the desktop team
<manicka> a better organised and tighter run meeting should make all this clearer
<lllmanulll> artnay I believe its goal is to give the best polish for our distribution
<manicka> anyway guys, I'm stuffed .... late night here, I'm turning in
<klepas> manicka: i think you can rest assured that at least those here now as well as mhz and lukacu will make sure of a smoother meeting
<klepas> manicka: farewell
<lllmanulll> artnay Such as usability...
<manicka> ciao all
* manicka zZzzz....
<artnay> lllmanulll: isn't there a11y for that? :)
<artnay> if desktop team wants their part of this, they have to tell what they want to do
<artnay> otherwise they have to redirect people to get involved in artwork team
<artnay> dupe work is out of question now, we have so many things to do even without duplicate projects
<lllmanulll> artnay Desktop team takes care of code, not artwork
<lllmanulll> artnay : accessibility and usability are two very different problems :)
<artnay> oh, I misread... anyways, Desktop Team wants some flash factor
<artnay> "We, the DesktopTeam will be the guys that are the first contact for new users, we will create, beautify and organise the most-visible parts of Ubuntu."
<artnay> now what are the most-visible parts of Ubuntu?
<lllmanulll> Well, but at least the artwork team doesn't take care of code, so I don't think there will be any duplicate work :)
<artnay> http://sven.gimp.org/gimp-2.2.10-splash-contest+ixyx_v0.2b.png
<artnay> new splash
<lllmanulll> Looks nice :
<lllmanulll> !
<lllmanulll> Is it the winner ?
<lllmanulll> Why does it stop at 30 years ? :-p
<artnay> that's a good question
<artnay> maybe they will change the name then? :o
<artnay> I don't like that font, it's too big and rusty
<artnay> it just doesn't fit there
<artnay> hey, any deviants here?
<klepas> sort of
<klepas> i signed up
<klepas> and then looked at their upload policy
<klepas> and disagreed with it 
<artnay> hhehhe
<klepas> i don't like it that they can just use my image for anything on deviantart
<artnay> http://art.ubuntu.com/images/backgrounds/Ubuntu-Carribean_Medicine_Mask_1280x960.jpg - I don't think that photo is GPL'd
* klepas is writing the minutes now
<klepas> the end of "linux" is difficult to make out anyway
<klepas> hey
<klepas> artnay: i'm going to send you what i've got soon
<Tm_T> hullo
<klepas> hey Tm_T :)
<Tm_T> I bet I spend next day upgrading and fixing my system *=)
<mhz> artnay: i have a raw propsal for wiki structure
<artnay> mhz: and I have nothing new
<artnay> mhz: shall we make a proposal page? :)
* mhz is saving it :)
<artnay> I've been thinking those artwork .debs
<artnay> if they are metapackages, it's rather hard to remove (purging) them
<artnay> aptitude would check the dependencies but majority of people use plain apt-get
<artnay> apt -D might do something
<artnay> I'm no expert, therefore we should ask packagers opinion
<artnay> would there be only one big pack available?
<artnay> apt is ok but far from perfect
<mhz> artnay: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal
<artnay> I think we don't need separate our proposals
<artnay> as we three all use IRC, it's pretty easy to discuss here
<artnay> so let's have one common proposal, let's discuss about it in here and then edit it
<artnay> does that sound better to you?
<mhz> yup
<artnay> do we have to separate people between the projects?
<artnay> can't we have one common contact page and interests listed after name?
<mhz> but as w hadnt agreed on that, and in case we cant discuss soem stuff (IRC timings)... I am not sure if remving it is god idea
<artnay> we can even split the names between the projects on one page
<artnay> I know that's against "let's split subjects based on *buntu flavour", but some things should be kept simple
<mhz> artnay: I feel that having a 'heading' for each project/pet project is more efficient so visitors can exactly know who t contact
<artnay> mhz: that's true, it should be clear to others. but we can link to only one contact page under every /*buntuArtwork
<mhz> and having (parenthesis + interests)  forces people t read each line
<mhz> artnay: 'contact' sure!
<artnay> but the status page for project could include members involved
<artnay> so it would separate more efficiently
<artnay> and then we would have this one common contact page
<mhz> artnay: and how do you imagine the 'status page' to look and make it look like it?
<artnay> well it should list the current status, current default artwork related to that project, members who involved in it, dependencies to other projects, deadline, current issues, links to other related sites (inside ubuntu wiki) and on the bottom of all, links to external sites (guides etc.)
<artnay> I think that should cover pretty much the needed information
<artnay> and *buntuProjectArtworkDiscussion for free discussion/WIP artwork
<mhz> artnay: yes, but how do you imagine it 'making it look like that', from a wiki perspective? How are you planning to optimize editing to it?
<artnay> it should be based on clear subtopics and TOC
<artnay> optimize? what do you mean?
<mhz> optimize = who will keep record/log of the status in order to edit, how will the status look? (table?, lists?)
<artnay> that would require people who are involved in that project to keep it up-to-date
<artnay> I'm not sure how the layout should be done, but I'm pretty sure we can come up with something
<artnay> I'm sorry, I'm in a hurry now
<artnay> I'll be back in 30 minutes
<artnay> bye mhz and thanks for helping us :)
<mhz> bye artnay in case i dont see you b4..
<mhz> artnay: have a nice holyday
<mhz> artnay: have a nice holiday
<artnay> :i
<artnay> took a bit longer than I thought
<artnay> mhz: is that proposal navigatable at /Artwork?
<artnay> and really, do we need separate parts?
<artnay> it's not like a job for three people only
<artnay> everyone should be able to edit so we don't get blamed for bad structure that has been developed as a closed project :P
<artnay> and I guess you're the one of us who has the needed wiki information
<artnay> what do you think, mhz?
<artnay> damn NYE tomorrow... five days isn't much
<artnay> well maybe we need to relax and party when the NYE hits your time zone. hard work good but first take care of head ;)
<artnay> ping, anyone alive?
<artnay> Tm_T: hey, can I have kapsi account? I lost my I line! :(
<artnay> ;P
<mhz> artnay: re
<mhz> artnay: i'm at lucnh nw
<mhz> be back after it
<Tm_T> artnay: =)
<Tm_T> artnay: www.kapsi.fi ;)
<mhz> re
<mhz> off topic: Anyone has swedish, finnish, etc. cooking recipes I can download (hopefully with pictures on it)?
<bachler> mhz: http://hem.passagen.se/stektsill/recept.htm
<mhz> bachler: thx, /me tabbing
<bachler> np
<bachler> good luck btw :-)
<mhz> bachler: ooops
<mhz> detail: I've no idea of finnish nor swedish :)
<mhz> heheh
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-05
<artnay> helo
<klepas> happy new year!
<klepas> it's 01:44 AM, January 1st here :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-06
<klepas> g'day from australia
<mhz> hey!
<mhz> Happy new year!
<mhz> (12:12 here)
<klepas> happy new year :)
<klepas> it's 2006-01-02 02:28 AM here :)
<mhz> ohhh
<mhz> monday already
<klepas> yep :)
<klepas> did you celebrate the new year nicely?
<mhz> I just had a humble dinner, watched a DVD and went to bed
<mhz> that was nice
<mhz> :)
* mhz is not a party man... actually i am a good conversation and poker man :D
<mhz> or any card game :;)
<mhz> How about you klepas ?
<klepas> we had some German friends come over
<klepas> and we sat on our veranda which overlooks Canberra
<klepas> which provides a rather nice and far view :)
<mhz> wow! nice
<klepas> where we lit some candles
<klepas> pulled up some comfy chairs and outdoor lounges
<klepas> and enjoyed coffee, tea, cake and some alcoholic drinks
<klepas> i had 2 martinis :)
<mhz> hehehe
<klepas> and generally enjoyed the evening with some good friends
<mhz> thats the idea
<klepas> yep
<klepas> it was, actually still is very hot though
<klepas> got to 39 degrees today
<mhz> some people near where i live started a party at 02:50 AM
<klepas> hehe :)
<mhz> and I couldnt sleep well :(
<klepas> pity
<mhz> they ended at 09:00 AM
<mhz> 39 C ??
<mhz> any stupid riots about ethnic issues where you live?
<klepas> Yes
<klepas> Those calmed down a bit
<klepas> they flew in a lot of extra police
<klepas> over a million people crowded the Sydney Harbour, so they had to
<mhz> good
<klepas> but all that crap was occuring 380 kilometers north
<klepas> in  Sydney
* mhz has real difficulties understanding such issues
<klepas> Canberra, even as the capital is much smaller, mainly middle class and generally more respectful
<klepas> it's a lovely place to live because of facilities as it is the capital
<klepas> and it is small
<mhz> klepas: you emailed about Moin 'scholing', right?
<klepas> Yes
<klepas> Hope that is alright? :)
* mhz would lve to live in Canberra then ;)  (Maybe i'll apply to a job there)
<mhz> klepas: sure
<klepas> you could probably make it
<mhz> klepas: my potential probs. is that a real class needs to be structured not imporvised and so, I'd rather do it well, during this week maybe.
<mhz> But if you are in a hurry, I can imporvise a little
<mhz> (some basics)
<klepas> yep
<klepas> just some basics would be fine
<klepas> mhz: another lovely thing about Canberra: it is home to 2 quite large universities
<klepas> :)
<mhz> klepas: okis, 20 minutes now?
<mhz> or later?
<mhz> later = 3 more hours :)
<klepas> as in this little tutorial?
* mhz got lost
<klepas> about the Moin wiki
<klepas> do you mean to say 20 minutes from now?
<klepas> to show me about the moin wiki stuff?
<klepas> :)
<mhz> if you want, I have 25 minutes of battery remaining
<mhz> :)
<mhz> yup
<klepas> Sadly, I will be asleep
<klepas> it is 02:57 AM
<mhz> oh
<mhz> this time diff!
<mhz> I saw your email 15 minutes ago :(
<klepas> No worries
<klepas> I shall be back, if it is not too hot at about 11-12 AM my time
<mhz> hmm
<klepas> this is about 8-9 hours from now :)
<mhz> what's your diff with UTC?
<mhz> mine is UTC -3
<klepas> well GMT is +10
<klepas> so i guess since they are the same
<klepas> +10
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> ok, I guess I'll be around near that time
<mhz> it would be cool though if you downloaded a MoinMoinDesktopEdition
<mhz> so we can work properly and faster
<mhz> (that Moin si just a folder (or dir) in your /home
<mhz> no need f apache)
<mhz> o+f
<klepas> only Python i guess
<mhz> it has everything you need
<klepas> because it is written in it if i recall correctly
<klepas> :)
<mhz> even python
<klepas> alright
<klepas> what is the package name?
<klepas> do you know it?
<mhz> yup, gimme asec
<klepas> cheers
<mhz> klepas: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/DesktopEdition
<mhz> that version has absolutely anything you need without touching your OS 
<klepas> lovely
<klepas> i guess it'll work on Suse too
* klepas still has yet to switch to Ubuntu/Kubuntu completely :)
<mhz> yup
<mhz> hehehe
<klepas> nice
<klepas> i'll see to it that i install that tomorrow morning :)
<klepas> thank you
<mhz> yw
<mhz> sleep well
<klepas> Yep
<mhz> and probably i'll here by then
<klepas> have you changed /Artwork?
<mhz> remeber to ping me though
<mhz> not yet
<mhz> not yetyou will do that :)
<mhz> hehe
<klepas> :)
<klepas> cheers :)
<klepas> http://wombat.nuxified.com/node/109 - happy new year :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-07
<klepas> mhz_BBS: :)
<mhz> klepas: i just got back home and i am blasted
<mhz> :(
<mhz> I can commit to wake up earlier though
<mhz> so I can shool you a little bit
<mhz> bur before that, please use Moinmoin desktop edition
<mhz> and once you unpack it, cd to the dir where you unpack it and do this:
<mhz> ./moin
<mhz> and then open a browser and visit localhost:8080
<klepas> alrighty
<klepas> gimme a few minutes
<klepas> voila
<klepas> this is really quite cool :)
<mhz> indeed
<mhz> see? nt touching your OS
<mhz> not
<mhz> okis
<mhz> are we ready?
* mhz yaaaawns
<mhz> ;)
<klepas> yep
<mhz> okis
<mhz> you are at the browser?
<klepas> yes
<mhz> everything we'll work on is after http://localhost:8080/
<klepas> ok
<mhz> before we begin, you have to remember this is web technology
<mhz> and that every page is a link
<klepas> yes
<mhz> or treated as a link
<mhz> what's your name?
<klepas> first name?
<klepas> Pascal :)
<mhz> Pascal Klein
<klepas> yep
<mhz> okis
<mhz> write http://localhost:8080/PascalKlein
<mhz> just like that
<klepas> yep
<mhz> press enter :)
<klepas> Page obviously does not yet exist and i have an option to create a new page with that name
<mhz> exactly, dont d it
<mhz> not yet
<mhz> now write http://localhost:8080/pascal
<klepas> same
<mhz> of course
<klepas> :)
<mhz> but you just noticed that it will let you creeate
<mhz> new pages just like that
<klepas> yes
<mhz> now, what do you know wikis are for?
<klepas> to store information
<klepas> which can be edited cooperatively
<mhz> excelent
<klepas> so people can share their knowledge or write about something in a cooperative manner
<mhz> but then
<mhz> if we collaboratively edit pages, how do others know we have created a page 'pascal' or PascalKelin?
<klepas> they can sign up to these pages
<mhz> yes
<klepas> and be informed by email, for example of changes
<mhz> but when editing a page?
<klepas> When editing a page yes
<mhz> how do i know if i have to write 'pascal'?
<klepas> not too sure about the creation of new pages
<mhz> or PascalKlein to get a link?
<klepas> i assume that the function of signing up is somewhat configurable so that people can also be informed when new pages are made
<mhz> yes
<mhz> and no
<mhz> klepas: the purpose of a good wiki is
<mhz> that if I happen to write about the Artwork project,
<mhz> and I want to let the readers know about Pascal
<mhz> I want to have a link t your pages
<mhz> or page
<klepas> yes
<mhz> to do so, I need to know if your page is Pascal, PascalKlein or pascal
<klepas> a wiki is based on a network of links
<mhz> because those 3 can be links or just words
<mhz> so,
<klepas> yes
<mhz> a good standard policy to every wiki 
<mhz> is we use CamelCase
<mhz> which are 2 words put together
<klepas> FirstwordLastword? :)
<mhz> yup
<mhz> excellent
<mhz> and to avoid pascal as  link
<mhz> :)
<klepas> and they point to the respective wiki pages
<mhz> or avoid Pascal
<mhz> exactly
<mhz> this way, we all know we use similar standards
<mhz> and we'll make lots of links to useful or already existing pages
<klepas> and if they do not exist they link to them anyway and the wiki will then realise that the page is non-existant and will allow you to create it :)
<mhz> yes and no
<mhz> yes if its 'syntax' is a link
<mhz> and here we come to the diffs
<mhz> Each wiki engine can use their own syntax
<mhz> but 99% will always respect CamelCasing
<klepas> good
<mhz> now, 
<mhz> last 2 needed standards:
<mhz> 2) Avoid subpages
<mhz> why?
<mhz> klepas: why d you think I say s?
<mhz> so
<klepas> just to make clear
<mhz> (sorry for my 'o's
<klepas> sub pages are:
<klepas> "/Artwork/UbuntuArtwork
<mhz> Pascal/PascalKlein
<klepas> for example?
<mhz> yup
<klepas> ah, good
<klepas> Why should we avoid these?
<mhz> or PascalKlein/MyMon
<klepas> i would think that it would be a good thing
<mhz> hehehe
<mhz> every wiki newie thinks so
<mhz> :D
<klepas> especially since it is what we want to do with /Artwork
<mhz> Example:
<mhz> we have a wiki site about Australian families
<mhz> How would you make the homepage for your family? What page name would it be?
<klepas> "/KleinFamily" probably?
<mhz> okis
<mhz> blabla.org/KleinFamily
<mhz> ok?
<klepas> yes
<mhz> now
<mhz> Lets' say we have 300 hundred Klein people
<klepas> lol, yep
<mhz> from 90 diff families
<mhz> what name will your family page be?
<klepas> why not make it the /Klein
<mhz> ok,
<mhz> let's try the klein
<mhz> Klein
<mhz> sorry
<klepas> and from then /Klein/BlahKlein
<klepas> for each family?
<mhz> ok
<mhz> To show you
<mhz> at http://localhost:8080/
<mhz> Make your page http://localhost:8080/Klein
<mhz> please
<mhz> Choose no template
<klepas> yes
<klepas> just some plain text?
<mhz> yes
<mhz> whatever
<klepas> done
<klepas> save
<mhz> this is only a test
<mhz> ok
<mhz> we see a nice Klein page?
<klepas> yes
<mhz> ok
<mhz> now, http://localhost:8080/Zamora
<mhz> please
<klepas> new page as well?
<mhz> yup
<klepas> done
<mhz> now, edit Klein page
<mhz> and write blablabla Zamora blah.
<mhz> and save
<klepas> done
<mhz> is Zamora considered a link?
<klepas> no
<klepas> no CamelCase
<mhz> now, http://localhost:8080/Klein and edit it 
<klepas> yes
<mhz> using PascalKlein on the body, somewhere
<klepas> [http://localhost:808/Zamora Zamora]  ?
<mhz> nope
<klepas> ok
<klepas> added PascalKlein
<klepas> and saved
<mhz> does it show as link?
<klepas> yes; it's CamelCase :)
<mhz> edit same Klein page
<klepas> yep
<klepas> add what
<mhz> and add ["Zamora"] 
<klepas> ah, lovely
<klepas> but this should be avoided entirely, no?
<mhz> 1st question: which way is it faster?
<klepas> CamelCase
<mhz> 2nd question:
<mhz> do you know what Zampra is?
<mhz> Zamora
<klepas> so this is why the /Artwork idea isn't so good
<mhz> Zamora
<klepas> it's not your last name is it?
<klepas> :o)
<mhz> Yes
<mhz> but what if you just did not know
<klepas> Mauricio Hermandez Zamora :)
<mhz> exactly
<mhz> :)
<klepas> what do i do if i do not know?
<mhz> what if we are 300 Klein people writing about our families
<klepas> errm. Use 300 different wiki pages
<mhz> and we have potential words that could have been aoutomagically linked to existing pages
<klepas> because a central /Klein page would still be too confusing
<mhz> but they were not autolinked because we did not use camel casing
<mhz> Wikis are meant to be 'flat', 'horizontal'
<klepas> and whenever someone tries to refer to a certain Foobar Klein no one will know wo whom they are referring too
<mhz> exactly
<klepas> yep
<klepas> when are subpages applicable?
<mhz> if we keeep a wiki 'flat' then we have more chances to get autolinked
<mhz> wehn we dont care about 'autolinks' or
<klepas> okay
<mhz> when we have a responsible editors group taking care 
<klepas> so, here's the bombshell question
<mhz> of such things
<klepas> what would you propose
<klepas> to do with the /Artwork wiki pages?
<klepas> :)
<mhz> difficult to answer
<mhz> I guess
<mhz> that we have to find the most general stuff common to all artwork projects
<klepas> okay
<mhz> (logo, theme, palletes, etc)
<klepas> and make seperate /UbuntuArtwork, /KubuntuArtwork pages
<mhz> and then, only then, create maybe one or two (no more) sblevels
<klepas> and then the unfied stuff goes into /SplashScreens for example?
<mhz> or
<klepas> mmhh
<mhz> we could have no unification at all
<klepas> mhh
<mhz> or
<klepas> i think we could just stick with what we've decided now
<klepas> but i guess if this new proposal for the wiki does not work out we can always change it
<mhz> if we know that we'll have some people responsible for each falvour's pages, we could
<klepas> yep
<mhz> just take care of linking to that flaovurs homepage
<klepas> well i am happy to do Ubunut, Kubuntu and maybe even some Edubuntu
<klepas> :)
<klepas> *Ubuntu
<mhz> or
<mhz> I'd be very happy to see
<mhz> XubuntuArtworkSplashScreen
<mhz> XubuntuArtworkLogo
<mhz> XubuntuArtworkTheme
<mhz> XubuntuArtworkColorPallete
<mhz> etc
<klepas> mhh
<klepas> sounds a bit tedious
<mhz> Looong KISS and tedious when writing
<mhz> but believe me...
<mhz> end users will immediately get the idea where they are heading
<mhz> and the good thing is..
<klepas> yeah, true
<klepas> well, how about
<mhz> we can make those links to show up Xubuntu Artwork Logo
<klepas> we go through with the proposal that we agreed
<mhz> intead of sticky
<klepas> and then, if we wish to change it at a later stage, we will
<mhz> current proposal involves many subpages
<mhz> so if you dont know the path to them..
<mhz> how will you get there?
<klepas> that is one thing we want to make sure remains easy
<klepas> we want to set out /Artwork really well
<mhz> exactly
<klepas> so anyone who is unsure will be able to find it still quickly
<mhz> today
<mhz> if you have no subpages
<mhz> and write on the search area
<mhz> pascal and hit 'enter'
<mhz> you will 100% see all pages having pascal on their title
<klepas> so if we have /Artwork/UbuntuArtwork/Splash
<klepas> and you do a search for 'splash"
<klepas> will you find /Artwork/UbuntuArtwork/Splash
<mhz> it will probably get you there but it will take MUCH more to get it
<mhz> because it 1st reads the top level pages
<mhz> then subpages
<mhz> remember it's a wiki engine
<klepas> yes
<klepas> alright
<klepas> i understand now the pros and cons of using subpages
<mhz> and when you edit a page and want to link it to 'splash' of Ubuntu, how would you know that's the path?
<klepas> yea
<klepas> well, for now it has to wait
<mhz> yup
<klepas> we want to fix the wiki first
<klepas> in the manner agreed at the meeting
<mhz> yes
<klepas> mhh
<klepas> "#redirect ArtworkTodoProposal
<klepas> :)
<mhz> but we gotta make a proposal
<klepas> i think i will be able to change it
<mhz> and I am 'wasted' tired
<mhz> so, my brain is not letting me be clear as i should
<mhz> klepas: sorry
<mhz> I gotta hit the envelope
<mhz> see ya soon
* mhz inits 0
<klepas> cheers
<mhz> bye
<klepas> thanks for the help :)
<mhz> np
<artnay> hey klepas 
<artnay> seems like you and mhz have been planning something
<artnay> I've been away for some days now, so I'm a bit "outdated" :)
<artnay> klepas: and do we have any word about imagemagick support? we could create FAQ and/or script for AUC
<artnay> hey lukacu 
<artnay> hey all :o
<lukacu> hello artnay
<klepas> hey
<klepas> lukacu: i'll send you a copy of what i've been thinking about AUC tomorrow
<artnay> so how are you?
<artnay> everything fine after NYE? :)
<artnay> well, actually I read the log and it seemed none of you were online back then :)
<artnay> klepas: did you take a look at the log?
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal
<artnay> I discussed about that one earlier
<artnay> I mainly wondered why there was a section for each of us
<artnay> and why isn't that page mentioned at /Artwork
<artnay> so we all could build the structure, not just the three of us.
<artnay> we could discuss here on IRC and make the changes to one proposal
<artnay> or do we need separate sections?
<klepas> artnay: now's not a great time for me
<artnay> we still do have a meeting on 5th?
<klepas> i need to go soon
<klepas> but yea
<artnay> I'll edit /Artwork
<klepas> check that voting page again for the meeting stuff
<klepas> we're voting for either Thursday or Friday
<klepas> 2300 UTC
<artnay> umh
<klepas> i'm very sorry i haven't gotten out the minutes yet
<artnay> ok
<artnay> well I'll update it anyways
<klepas> my parents left for a week
<klepas> and i need to look after the house
<klepas> and i have to work tomorrow at 4 AM
<klepas> and it's 22:38 now
<klepas> ugh
<klepas> either way
<klepas> i'll try to send out the minutes tonight
<klepas> which wiki page should i put it on?
<klepas> or and check /Artwork
<klepas> i've changed the redirect
<klepas> and now it's a blank page plus some quick writting from me
<klepas> so we can begin the restructuring
<artnay> eh
<artnay> why isn't information on /ArtworkTodoProposal listed there?
<artnay> that's unnecessary
<artnay> duh, /Artwork doesn't even have a mention of /ArtworkTodoProposal
<lukacu> hello klepas, artnay
<klepas> sorry
<artnay> so how on earth are people to supposed vote for the next date? :o
<klepas> we need to start this restructuring
<klepas> while we're doing that we can link to the proposal
<artnay> well is /Artwork your proposal?
<lukacu> klepas: send it on my maillist address
<klepas> yep
<klepas> isn't that what we agreed on?
<klepas> i just copied what we had in the wiki section of the proposal
<klepas> and altered it a wee bit
<artnay> I though you'd use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal
<artnay> +t
<artnay> nevermind
<artnay> it's only getting uglier than ever ;)
<artnay> but hey, let's chat more when you have time for that
<klepas> yep
<artnay> I'll update /ArtworkTodoProposal, could you update /Artwork to contain a link to /ArtworkTodoProposal
<klepas> sadly that will be in a fair while
<klepas> yes
<artnay> cool
<klepas> feel free to start working on /Artwork
<artnay> you still have plenty of time
<artnay> to sleep, I mean
<artnay> 3 hours is enough for everybody
<klepas> less than 5 hours
<artnay> x) x)
<klepas> lol
<klepas> we should also make the page /ArtWork rather than /Artwork
<klepas> for CamelCase linking
<klepas> anyway
<artnay> sure, why not
<artnay> but first of all, the structure has to be ideal
<artnay> then do these "minor changes" that affect usability
<artnay> well, actually it should be done simultaneosly
<klepas> yep
<klepas> i'll work more on it later
<artnay> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> updated
<klepas> i need to eat something and get ready for tomorrow
<klepas> and thn sleep
<klepas> thanks
<artnay> ok, take care mate
<klepas> yep
<klepas> btw, vote if you haven't
<klepas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTeamVoting
<klepas> cheers
<artnay> I guess I'm not available on Friday
<artnay> so I have to my vote on 5th
<artnay> any word from canonical?
<artnay> AUC, branding guide, anything?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:artnay] : Vote for the next meeting date - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtworkTodoProposal
<artnay> d/na
<artnay> I was just going to ask if could edit /ArtworkTodoProposal to include /Artwork
<artnay> but seems like you changed /Artwork already
<artnay> how does one get "date" printed into wiki easily?
<artnay> klepas: and you didn't tell your opinion on /ArtWorkWikiStructureProposal
<artnay> *grr*
<artnay> ;)
<artnay> I still need an "ok" to change StructureProposal
<artnay> hey AndyFitz 
<artnay> how are you?
<AndyFitz> g'day g'day
<AndyFitz> I'm good.  and alive for 2006 !
<artnay> AndyFitz: we had a (quite disorganized) meeting last thursday
<AndyFitz> how are you artnay ?
<artnay> pretty buzy, haven't been on computer for a few days
<artnay> so now I have go through logs etc.
<artnay> http://hdr.unk.fi/~artnay/leaf_by_machine6featUbuntu.png - something green for us (blends pretty well with brown and black)
<AndyFitz> it was held in #ubuntu-meeting ?
<artnay> AndyFitz: yes, it was
<artnay> although there wasn't much artwork team members present, but we still got a few things straight
<artnay> like building wiki structure (and we're supposed to renew it before the next meeting, quite tight schedule), renewing AUC, trying to build a better information channel between canonical and artwork team (to get AUC done right and to get that branding guide finally)
<artnay> AndyFitz: how's your LCA presentation?
<AndyFitz> artnay  it will be fun
<AndyFitz> fontforge may have a bigger mention than I thought it should have  but hey I guess I'm in love with an ugly app
<artnay> hehe, never tried that one
<artnay> so is LCA webcasted?
<artnay> http://www.livejournal.com/users/cniehaus/12822.html - nice, I've never understood how all those materials are utilized and in which technologies etc.
<artnay> something to make it easier to comprehend
<Tm_T> :)
<Tm_T> artnay: you got ready that theme you were playing around?
<artnay> Tm_T: no, not yet :)
<artnay> I'm trying to build new splash using moodin engine
<artnay> I'm off, bye
#ubuntu-artwork 2006-01-08
<lukacu> hi mhz
<mhz> hi lukacu 
<mhz> lukacu: every time i see you r nick I cant help thinking about pikacu, is that the idea?
<lukacu> lol ... yeah :D
<mhz> oooh
<mhz> okis
<lukacu> its a long story ...
<mhz> make it short so i can read it ;)
<lukacu> lets just say i am not some kind of pokemon/anime fan ... it just that a friend of mine played with letters a bit and came up with this
<mhz> oooh
<lukacu> this is how nicks are sometimes made 
<mhz> i see
<mhz> indeed
<lukacu> well as you know my name is Luka and surname starts with a letter similar to C
<lukacu> and it is not far from that to lukacu :)
<lukacu> mhz: wiki? progress?
<mhz> yes and no
<mhz> ;)
<lukacu> :)
<mhz> lukacu: i guess wiki team will need a meeting today or tomorrow
<lukacu> i am just asking because a am not subscribed to all artwork related pages
<mhz> oh, me neither
<lukacu> mhz: do you know if there exists an app with similar functionality like http://growl.info/about.php but for linux?
* mhz tabbing
<mhz> well,
<mhz> you can get notifications from command line :D
<lukacu> :)
* mhz will apt-cache search about it
<lukacu> i dont think there is one ... but there should be
<mhz> lukacu: notification-daemon - a daemon that displays passive pop-up notifications
<lukacu> i will check it out
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-01
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [+o troy_s]  by ChanServ
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-artwork:troy_s] : Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork!  Happy New Year to all!
* mode/#ubuntu-artwork [-o troy_s]  by troy_s
<coz_> HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL !
<klepas> kwwii: ping
<kwwii> klepas: hi
<klepas> what's going to happen in regard to 1px borders on the 16x & 22px icons in Oxygen?
<kwwii> klepas: not much, I guess
<klepas> i'm out of the loop in regards to Oxygen, figured i'd ask you rather than pop a possibly stupid question over the ml
<kwwii> hehe
<klepas> so no 1px borders?
<kwwii> well, we are thinking about it, but it nothing has been decided yet
<kwwii> I am not sure whether it will happen or not
<klepas> *nod*
<kwwii> when we started the set, we have black borders around them
<kwwii> and then we removed them
<kwwii> so going back to using them might take a while
<kwwii> anyway, we are thinking about not using 16x16 icons anymore
<klepas> although you probably know this, they don't need to be black :-)
<kwwii> yeah
<klepas> no 16px icons?
<kwwii> if it were to happen, I guess we would add a very light border
<kwwii> yepp
* klepas uses only 16px icons
<kwwii> :p
<klepas> other than for folders in a file browser
<kwwii> we would still make them, for certain things
<klepas> i use 16px desktop wide
<kwwii> but in general they would no longer be used in most thing
<kwwii> s
<klepas> maximizes working space
<kwwii> ouch
<kwwii> how big is your monitor?
<klepas> i find it brilliant
<klepas> 1680x1050
<kwwii> wow
<kwwii> well, in kde4 we are moving one size up for almost everything
<klepas> i know all the icons, where what is and what they do mostly off by heart for the apps i use the most
<klepas> what prompted that?
* klepas considers a bid to stop the destruction of the 16px icon under KDE
<kwwii> we had a long discussion - but nothing is certain yet
<kwwii> we will still have and use 16px icons
<kwwii> but not per defualt
<kwwii> well, a few will always be needed per defualt
<mhb> kwwii: how big your monitor must be in order to ditch 16^2 icons?
<kwwii> mhb: that is not really the point, I was just wondering if he had a small monitor since he said he like to maximize the space
<klepas> if i was on a 1920x1200 i'd still do what i do now
<kwwii> mainly, 16px icons are used for menus and in the filebrowser
<klepas> i love it
<klepas> those are, i find, still normally 22px at minimum by default under KDE and GNOME
<kwwii> so until now the biggest change is that we want to use 22x22 in the menus
<klepas> whoa...
<klepas> have you guys mocked up Konq's interface with those?
<kwwii> actually, there is little difference in size of the menus because we are changing the spacing as well
<klepas> i think seeing some potential shots of how it would look like are (a) good (turnoff)
<kwwii> we have test code which we changed and it works and looks nice
<klepas> what about the text?
<klepas> are you going to increase the default desktop font size too?
<kwwii> the text stays the same
<klepas> that's quite weird... then with the suddenly larger icons?
<kwwii> basically in the menus we reduced the spacing around the icons
<klepas> so now they are more cluttered?
<kwwii> again, none of this is "decided" only in testing
<klepas> sorry, i'm not meaning to give you a bashing or anything -- it just seems like a strange decision that i find is unecessary
<kwwii> the thing is, you do not really see them as being cluttered
<klepas> i haven't seen how it all looks like with the changes being proposed but although it personally sounds not like an improvement, i can't see it's purpose
<kwwii> look at osx and see how many 16px icons they use
<kwwii> almost none
<klepas> fsck osx
<kwwii> hehehe
<kwwii> it is the nicest looking dekstop around
<kwwii> and almost everyone agrees on that
<klepas> last time i checked, and i posted this on the ml recently too: no free software project should just model themselves after osx
<klepas> unless there was dedicated to do that
<kwwii> but again, we'll test and test again before anything is final
<klepas> i'd love to see some screenshots
<kwwii> oh, we are not doing that at all...just trying to make the nicest looking desktop we can :-)
<klepas> (by looking at what osx do and if it's pretty model it? is the question that's going around though... =\ )
<TheSheep> actually osx is becoming old slowly
<kwwii> once we get that far, I am sure that there will be lots of discussion and such
<kwwii> TheSheep: yeah, you are right there too
<TheSheep> it's better to be a step ahead :)
<klepas> behind...
<klepas> osx :)
<klepas> (in it's shadows...)
<klepas> sorry
<klepas> :)
<klepas> kwwii: is there a chance you could shoot me a link to some screenshots or something of the sort?
<kwwii> klepas: if I had any, or had code to do it, i would, but I do not
<kwwii> it is a long way from reality
<kwwii> a long, long way
<kwwii> one dev tried it out to see how much of a problem it would be
<kwwii> sometime in the next couple of months we will put a usability test online, which everyone can take part it
<kwwii> s/it/in
<klepas> there's a brilliant idea
<kwwii> it will help us form a good idea of what everyone thinks, not just a few artists or devs ;-)
<msikma> TheSheep: if you think you can be one step ahead, design-wise, of commercial systems, especially the likes of Mac OS X, then good luck.
<kwwii> msikma: well put
<kwwii> I wonder how much money apple or win puts into the design of their respective desktops
<msikma> I'm not saying it's impossible, but you must consider the fact that a large team of dedicated and seasoned designers have worked on it for a long time.
<klepas> i just don't see why Mac OS X is always the one that work is being compared to
<TheSheep> msikma: you can rip from them and extend :)
<kwwii> TheSheep: but that is not really getting ahead
<kwwii> just going around
<klepas> i don't doubt that Apple has spent a large sum of money on the design work... i just dislike the attitude of "it's what mac does"
<TheSheep> msikma: I see a problem with the fact that they are designers (artists) not cognitive psychologists and ui specialists (scientists)
<klepas> as a justification of choices in design
<msikma> kwwii: I think they put a lot more money in it than Microsoft. It's difficult to change the theme in Mac OS X, and you need to resort to hacks to do that. There's no alternative except making all blue look grey. They are really, really concerned with making sure people can't mess up their interface
<msikma> TheSheep: do you really think that Apple hasn't hired a whole team of usability experts?
<TheSheep> msikma: I'm pretty sure they fired a large number of them recently
<msikma> "Pretty sure"?
<klepas> if the designer can't justify the choice they've made without saying "it's what mac does" then there is a preblem
<msikma> So that's a reason for doubting the process of a major company who puts design first? I don't find that very constructive, personally.
<kwwii> klepas: I was just pointing out that one of the two major desktops does it that way, not saying we want to do it like mac :-)
<klepas> well considering we don't know much about the insides of Apple, i think a designer shouldn't go "it's what they do, and they are very knowledgably about that they do, so i copied them"
<TheSheep> msikma: there are a lot of very dedicated ui design proffessionals who will gladly give hints and pointers to anyone willing to implement their ideas -- because most ui designers are kinda evangelical about good interface -- they want it done
<kwwii> we are not copying them or anyone
<klepas> it's more of a matter of "they did it" as a justification
<msikma> TheSheep: that's not really a reply to what I was saying.
<kwwii> no, it is a matter of "they did it" so I guess we can test the idea we have - the implementation is totally different anyway
<msikma> Unless you were adding that to your statement about Apple firing UI designers.
<TheSheep> msikma: sorry, I don;t type as fast as you, it's a reply to your lines from 5 lines ago :)
<kwwii> we have never gone further than thinking we would like to test it before
<msikma> Anyway, the Mac OS X interface is far from perfect.
<msikma> In my opinion, there's one glaring mistake, which is the resizing of windows. I mean, why is there a 16x16 hotspot?
<msikma> There are other things too. But generally, I find it a very good interface, though recently suffering from some consistency problems.
<kwwii> msikma: not sure if I understand you
<msikma> kwwii: you can only resize windows in the bottom-right corner in Mac OS X.
<kwwii> ahh, now I get it
<msikma> Even with the "metal" skin that implements thick window borders.
<kwwii> I used mac before anything else, so for me it was not very wierd
<msikma> Yeah
<msikma> I can kinda get why it was that way back on the G line of processors.
<msikma> It was "just the way it was", with respect to old applications that still had to remain functional.
<kwwii> I think it is a matter of them trying to keep things simple to an extreme these days
<msikma> But with the Intel switch, they surely could have done something to change it.
<msikma> Maybe. They mainly seem to be targeting switchers from Windows these days.
<TheSheep> I've recently read the apple's HIG. All they care about is how many pixels is between this button and that border.
<msikma> Then it would make sense to implement proper resizing, from all sides of the window.
<kwwii> yeah
<msikma> TheSheep: HIGs are guidelines for application developers, so it's certainly no surprise that they aren't talking about their design decisions in there. That's proprietary to them.
<msikma> I'm pretty sure that leaking that sort of information will get you a suit based on violating trade secrets.
<TheSheep> msikma: but they could say "use buttons for this, tabs for that and treeview for that"
<TheSheep> msikma: compare it with GNOME hig or (shudder) Vista's HIG
<msikma> To be honest, I haven't read those.
<msikma> I just briefly had a look at them.
<TheSheep> msikma: Vista even has a real-live examples taked from newest MS Office "this is how it shoudn't be done"
<TheSheep> taken
<msikma> I should read the Gnome guidelines. I wonder what they state.
<TheSheep> msikma: they make a lot of important UI decissions for you
<msikma> Well, that's good.
<TheSheep> I think that too.
<msikma> I've seen plenty of applications with no thought put into the design at all, so if people were to simply follow such a document, then at least they can get most of it right, given that they're not /complete/ retards.
<TheSheep> and consistent
<TheSheep> some decissions are arbitrary
<TheSheep> like the order of 'ok' and 'cancel' buttons
<msikma> Maybe Apple didn't put sufficient effort into their HIG because there is already a lot of design enthusiasm in the Mac community. If you make a bad-looking application on Mac OS X, you simply aren't going to get away with it unless it's a /really/ vital application.
<TheSheep> msikma: it seems to me that they are more concerned with looks than with usability
<msikma> This is very healthy, I believe, because people aren't going to like it when they notice that their bad design is causing nobody at all to download their program.
<msikma> TheSheep: I find that a bold statement. I don't think that this is the case. Usability has always been an important issue for Apple designers. I don't think that they simply don't care.
<TheSheep> msikma: yes, but not all developers of mac apps are employees of apple -- they need a HIG that tells more than "how to make your apps look exquisite"
<TheSheep> msikma: I'm sure they have some internal documents for that in apple
<msikma> I haven't read their HIG, so I can't comment on its contents, but a lacking HIG should not imply that there aren't any other documents online that one may use for a usability reference. That's part of the Mac community, and the important applications that are developed by it are somehow always well-designed, because otherwise they simply don't get any limelight.
<TheSheep> msikma: I'd be very glad if you pointed me to some if you find any :)
<TheSheep> msikma: I'm not really into mac community, so I simply don't know where to look
<msikma> Apple have an entire team to do formal usability tests, so there's no doubt that their internal developers will be paying that much attention to it. They just work, while others design.
<msikma> I've never developed a Mac program, so I don't know either.
<TheSheep> msikma: what I complain about is that the expert's work remains a secret of apple -- 3rd party developers are at disadvantage
<msikma> That could very well be so.
<msikma> I'll read their HIG sometime.
<TheSheep> it's pretty boring'
<TheSheep> :)
<plb_> anyone have problems saving svg images in gimp with gimp-svg plugin installed?
<plb_> I can open but not save
<TheSheep> plb_: isn't that normal?
<TheSheep> plb_: I mean, the svg plugin *imports* the svg file as a raster
<TheSheep> plb_: no way to convert that back into vectors
<plb_> ah
<TheSheep> plb_: use Inkscape to edit svg files
<plb_> Yeah, I've been trying to do that lol...never really used it before
<plb_> I'm trying to make color variations of the ubuntu logo
<plb_> in gimp I just adjust hue or color easily
<plb_> inkscape I'm not really sure
<TheSheep> well, vector images work a litle bit differently
<plb_> I see
<TheSheep> plb_: I think you could overlay a colorized, half-opaque outline of the logo, for the quickest effect...
<plb_> how do I go about that?
<TheSheep> plb_: copy the whole logo, and sum it into a single path -- then just set a transparent, colorized background to it.
<plb_> ok got it copied but how do I sum it to a single path
<TheSheep> plb_: there is an option in the menu for that
<plb_> hrm I just don't see it
<kwwii> path --> union
<kwwii> but all elements have to be ungrouped first
<TheSheep> :/
<TheSheep> sorry, I thought it would be simplier
<plb_> heh
<kwwii> and doing it that way will only work with slight variations
<plb_> ok let me put it this way...I just want a black ubuntu logo lol
<TheSheep> plb_: of course *THE& way to do it is to edit the svg file with a text editor and to a substitution on the colors used :)
<kwwii> the "correct" way of doing it would be to select the object and then change the actual color of it
<kwwii> for each object which makes up the logo
<plb_> gimp is so much easier ;] 
<TheSheep> text editor is faster :)
<plb_> heh
<kwwii> but you could select the groups and first click on "no fill" (or line) and then add a color for everything
<kwwii> grep is your friend :p
<kwwii> artwork via sed....ouch
<plb_> heh
<TheSheep> plb_: svg is an xml format
<plb_> forget "created by the gimp" logo...."created by sed"
<plb_> ya
<plb_> so what are the plans for feisty in terms of art
<kwwii> lol
<kwwii> good question
<kwwii> I'll stick to the easy questions :-)
<plb_> heh
<TheSheep> I guess the most recent proposition are the amber-like shiny thingies
<plb_> huh?
<plb_> what is this
<TheSheep> plb_: see the wiki
<TheSheep> plb_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/Artwork/Feisty/Incoming
<TheSheep> oops, sorry, wring page
<plb_> not bad
<TheSheep> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Attic/u2Brainstorm
<plb_> going for a whole different look?
<TheSheep> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Specifications/u2Brainstorm/u2BuufFull <-- wow!
<plb_> yeah, I saw these icons on gnome-look
<plb_> buuf
<TheSheep> love them
<plb_> are they going to be the default ones for feisty for something
<plb_> s/for/or
<TheSheep> I don't think so, they are posted as an example of organic look
<plb_> Mark should just mattahan to do a custom ubuntu iconset if he likes them so much ;] 
<plb_> get*
<plb_> pay*
<plb_> lol
<mhb> well
<mhb> I guess they won't become default. Ever.
<TheSheep> yeah, they don't scale well and have some accesibility problems :)
<plb_> I like tango personally ;] 
<TheSheep> tango's nice as a standard
<TheSheep> but pretty bleak
<mhb> I like most of the icon sets, including Tango, Oxygen and Human.
<mhb> but all in a different way
<TheSheep> I hate human for the raster directory icon
<TheSheep> it's ugly when scaled
<plb_> you have seen the new icons for fedora 7?
<TheSheep> no
<plb_> on gnome-look called echo or something
<plb_> not finished though
<mhb> if Human were more complete and fully SVG, I would like it more, too.
<mhb> Tango is also not very complete - I can't use it on KDE without some icons missing.
<TheSheep> mhb: hmm?
<TheSheep> mhb: which ones?
<plb_> What about metacity/gtk2 theme...going to get changed as well?
<TheSheep> plb_: probably
<TheSheep> plb_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubun2design/u2Specifications/u2WindowProposals
<mhb> TheSheep: not sure now
<plb_> I don't like any of that =\\
<TheSheep> plb_: me neither
<TheSheep> plb_: fortunately, you are free to change them :)
<plb_> doesn't look at all professional
<TheSheep> I hate the "pearly" window buttons
<mhb> TheSheep: no Configure icon (a wrench in Crystal/Oxygen)
<TheSheep> blindly copied from macos
<TheSheep> mhb: there is the screwdriver and wrench icon
<plb_> http://interfacelift.com/themes-mac/details.php?id=61
<plb_> yeah basically lol
<TheSheep> follow the leader
<_MMA_> troy_s: ping
<plb_> I really hope Mark doesn't approve any of those metacity themes lol
<mhb> TheSheep: yes, but it's sadly not named well so that it can be used in KDE out-of-the-box :o)
<mhb> TheSheep: can't find a "Filter View" icon
<TheSheep> mhb: well, since it's the Tango that sets the standard, the bug is obviously in KDE
<mhb> TheSheep: heh
<mhb> TheSheep: yes, you might say that
<mhb> TheSheep: but a standard that doesn't work is kind of worthless to me
<kwwii> the freedesktop naming spec will be used in kde4, not kde3
<kwwii> and we have a list of icon names we need to add
<mhb> kwwii: I know
<kwwii> mhb: I was offering that info for TheSheep ;-)
<mhb> TheSheep: as kwwii says, it may improve in KDE4 :o)
<mhb> TheSheep: it's probably either the packager's fault that it doesn't make a few symlinks to make more icons work in KDE3
<mhb> TheSheep: (no either, sorry)
<plb_> http://www.padmacolors.org/pics/2005060410.jpg
<plb_> something like that would be nice for a gtk2 theme for ubuntu
<plb_> it's an osx theme but it's quite nice and fitting for ubuntu I think
<mhb> TheSheep: but still the Tango Icon Gallery has several blank places
<kwwii> plb_: I guess that has usability problems ;-)
<kwwii> but anyway...time for dinner
<kwwii> bbl
<plb_> never used it myself but I think it fits ubuntu nicely
* TheSheep uses xfwm4 with 'Moheli' theme
<TheSheep> and it's all I need
<mhb> TheSheep: yes, _you_ :o)
<TheSheep> mhb: fact is that the less an interface element is distracting, the better it is. Best interfaces are not visible at all.
<mhb> TheSheep: I wish all Oxygen, Tango and Human would be complete enough to work on KDE4 :o)
<TheSheep> mhb: I thinkt that Tango is open to contributions
<mhb> TheSheep: and the latter two to work on KDE3, since both are available now
<mhb> TheSheep: it is - if only I had time :o)
<TheSheep> mhb: is this the 'oxygen' you mean? http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=50716&file1=50716-1.png&file2=50716-2.png&file3=&name=Verglas+Icons+Set+02%3A+Oxygen
<mhb> nope
<mhb> http://www.oxygen-icons.org/
<mhb> http://www.oxygen-icons.org/?cat=3  <-- preview
<TheSheep> iteresting
<TheSheep> " It is important to represent devices and media storage in a way that user will immediatly recognize them.
<TheSheep> lol
<TheSheep> and then they draw a "realistic" hdd, as if an average user have ever seen one
<troy_s> _mma_ you here?
<_MMA_> i am now.
<_MMA_> May I PM?
<troy_s> absolutely
<kwwii> TheSheep: it is more about the printer, and usb hard drives than anything else...kde rarely if ever uses a normal harddrive icon anway :-)
<kwwii> cameras, etc. ad nauseum
<TheSheep> kwwii: I see
<TheSheep> kwwii: not a kde guy, you see :)
<kwwii> ;-)
<mhb> kwwii: not exactly true
<mhb> kwwii: well KDE does not, but Kubuntu does
<mhb> kwwii: open /media (if you have Edgy+)
<mhb> kwwii: I have one remote and two local partitions there with a hard drive icon
<TheSheep> it should be a 'partition icon' ;)
<mhb> kwwii: I guess TheSheep may be right. My father can hardly tell what a computer component does (he didn't recognize the RAM card I gave him this Christmas :o)
<TheSheep> otoh how do yu draw a partition? :)
<mhb> TheSheep: that's the reason why they use a disk metaphor
<TheSheep> maybe a file cabinet methaphor woul work better...
<TheSheep> the icon is there already
<troy_s> Greets TheSheep
<troy_s> et mhb
<mhb> hi
<troy_s> It is worth discussing the metaphors for hardware... we are still using legacy 'files and folders' from bloody xerox star era
<troy_s> etc.
* TheSheep nods
<TheSheep> I like how Tango pushes it a little farther
<TheSheep> not sure about the 'delete' icon, for example
<TheSheep> but I guess it's better than a red X
<troy_s> Simple X as a symbol might work well.
<troy_s> It is a cross between teaching your audience and having the expectation that your audience will know what something means.  The latter is generally folly.
<troy_s> As you can never typify something on a global scale.
<TheSheep> well, there is this thing called 'affordance'
<TheSheep> and it applies to icons too
<troy_s> Do you have an art and design education background Sheep?
<TheSheep> troy_s: no, I'm an amateur, but I read everything on the subject that I can get my hands on since several years :)
<troy_s> That is a lot more than most can say.
<troy_s> Affordance is generally more applied to actual physical implementations
<troy_s> For example, putting a closed handle on a door implies a pull.
<troy_s> Similar I suppose to a 'button' look for something -- implies pushing in an interface.
<troy_s> "pushing" rather.
<TheSheep> sure, but putting a beveled frame around something implies click :)
<TheSheep> right
<troy_s> Exactly
<troy_s> I agree 100%
<TheSheep> then again, there are colors -- "red means stop"
<troy_s> Those are cultural centric
<troy_s> Unfortunately.
<TheSheep> troy_s: well, some are more than others
<troy_s> For example, if you compare NA versus say, French walk crossing colours.
<TheSheep> troy_s: red/green seems to be pretty instinctive
<troy_s> I have a reference somewhere relating to those two very colours...
<troy_s> They aren't quite as instinctive as you would like.
<TheSheep> troy_s: all the poisonous animals are either red-black, yellow-black or white-black
<troy_s> Sounds like someone has read "universal principles of design"
<TheSheep> troy_s: high contrast means "watch out"
<troy_s> ')
<TheSheep> troy_s: nope, didn't read this one
<troy_s> Oh you should...
<troy_s> great reference.
<TheSheep> I will look for it, thanks.
<troy_s> But yes, those archetypes are generally evolutionary in nature -- from longstanding traditions.
<troy_s> Such as poisonous creatures, etc.
<troy_s> Out for a bit... love to chat about that in a bit.
<TheSheep> sounds are pretty nice in this regard
<TheSheep> great, I'll be waiting here :)
<_MMA_> troy_s: Im testing our theme on Feisty. Theres a difference in how the theme is displayed on Edgy vs. Feisty. In Feisty the desktop icons have a color background behind the text where Edgy doesnt.
<_MMA_> It uses Murrine. The .deb and theme Im using are the same on Edgy and Feisty. So Im guessing theres something different outside of our packages giving us the difference.
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-02
<vdepizzol> any chance to gaim in feisty come with tango icons? http://vdepizzol.wordpress.com/2006/12/03/landell-and-protocol-icons/
<lapo> hi
<troy_s> Greets lapo
<lapo> yo troy_s, happy new year
<troy_s> Same to you my friend
<troy_s> and a merry xmas if you do that sort of thing
<lapo> eheh, tnx
<mhb> who's the leader of the Human iconset project?
<mhb> or rather - do you know anyone who knows about it?
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-03
<troy_s> mhb -- human iconset is developed by IconFactory
<troy_s> Dave I believe.
<mhb> that's why all of them aren't available as SVGs?
<mhb> s/all/some
<troy_s> mhb -- indeed very few have sources if you will.
<lapo> hi
<mhb> hi all
<mhb> I need some more info about the Human iconset
<mhb> what's the license of it? Is it a GPL-like one?
<troy_s> mhb:  I don't know if it is officially declared as such.  Generally, from what I know, the licence of choice is the Creative Commons Share Alike
<troy_s> That said, I don't recall seeing the actual license recorded down anywhere.
<TheSheep> less /usr/share/doc/human-icon-theme/copyright
<mhb> okay, thanks
<troy_s> Well there you go :)  Nice work TheSheep ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-04
<newz2000> I just sent a message to the list and would love your feedback on it
<troy_s> newz2000 who were you talking to?
<newz2000> anyone in particular
<newz2000> no one in particular, I mean
<troy_s> Quite brilliant really newz -- but it will require the support of many.
<newz2000> yeah
<newz2000> maybe if there's a little positive feedback from the team I'll post a msg to the forums and also update the bug to get more people involved
<troy_s> I think the trick is to figure out the process to getting something into the repos.
<troy_s> main would be lovely, but who knows.
<newz2000> sorry for the delayed response, I'm starting to drift off at my keyboard... better call it a night. g'night
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
<lapo> yo
<Cimi> ciao
<Cimi> here's Cimi
<lizardking> hello
<lizardking> here's lizardking
<lizardking> ;)
<lapo> ciao cimi
<lapo> ciao lizardking
<lapo> too many italians :-)
<lizardking> ehhe
<lizardking> ja italian too
<andreasn> the Italian Conspiracy, eh? ;)
<andreasn> slowly taking over everything artwork related in GNOME...
* TheSheep knew that ridicolously blue sky looked suspicious
<Cimi> andreasn, do you like http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9100/schermataem7.jpg
<Cimi> ubuntustudio theme work in progress
<TheSheep> murrine black?
<Cimi> new version
<andreasn> looks nice
<Cimi> with selectable hilight
<andreasn> black themes can be hard, so I think you've done a good job on this one
<Cimi> thank you
<Cimi> www.ubuntustudio.com
<lapo> looks nice
<andreasn> reminds me that I better make that inkscape set usable
<TheSheep> Cimi: what icon theme is that?
<Cimi> of the screenshot?
<TheSheep> Cimi: yes
<TheSheep> Cimi: just curious
<Cimi> osx :(
<TheSheep> ah
<TheSheep> right, should have recognized the trash :)
<lizardking> try to use Tango-Noir, as in ubuntustudio wiki says
<lizardking> andreasn: Ahah the italian Consipracy is cool
<andreasn> think about it
<lizardking> I think as in fashion italian people have some good innate stuff for artwork
<andreasn> Lapo, Ulisse, Luca Ferretti
<andreasn> and the list goes on.... ;)
<andreasn> and Cimi and yourself
<andreasn> right?
<Cimi> no
<Cimi> lizardking sucks on themes
<Cimi> :P
<TheSheep> that's because Italia is sunny -- you have an advantage while picking the colors ;)
<lizardking> yes Cimi you are right
<lizardking> I'm an improvvisate artworker, i'm an engineering
<lizardking> but I can give good adivce to who make themes ;) (bad english)
<Cimi> lizardking, ;)
<lizardking> Cimi: yes?
<Cimi> just for advices/suggestions :P
<lizardking> yep!
<lizardking> but I like artwork, I can give good suggestions!
<TheSheep> lizardking: any good tutorial for beginners at gtk theming?
<lizardking> TheSheep: You should visit the official Gnome theming tutorial
<lizardking> TheSheep: In my opinion is not good a lot
<lizardking> Cimi: Trevio is packaging you murrine-configurator
<TheSheep> lizardking: do you have any experience with xfce-specific parts of theme?
<lizardking> Cimi: Trevino wanto to send the debian/ dir of the package
<lizardking> TheSheep: No, I don't use Xfce and I have any skills wit this features
<TheSheep> lizardking: found the tutorial, thanks a lot
<lizardking> TheSheep: ok, I hope my little help could improve your Skills ;)
<Cimi> http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/1687/screenab7.png
<Cimi> see ubuntustudio look
<lapo> Cimi: I like the bg image image what's that?
<TheSheep> Cimi: woudn't a graphics artist prefer a solid background? :)
<Cimi> TheSheep, i agree
<Cimi> but it is the only bg i have with selectable colors :D
<TheSheep> Cimi: maybe a grid...
<lapo> Cimi: apt-get install gnome-backgrounds
<lizardking> look fine this bg
<Cimi> ok stars bg rocks
<lapo> Cimi: andreasn's
<lizardking>  sudo aptitude install gnome-backgrounds ;)
<lapo> lizardking: I'm oldschool :-)
<Cimi> sudo pacman -S gnome-backgrounds
<Cimi> archlinux reigns!
<lizardking> pacman, which is the arcade game? ;) hihihi
<Trevinho> Cimi: hi
<lizardking> Trevinho: hi
<lizardking> Cimi: here is trevi
<Trevinho> [ITA]  siamo una buona percentuale di italiani qui mi pare... :P [/ITA] 
<Cimi> hi Trevinho
<Trevinho> ;)
<lizardking> yes we are almost italian
<Trevinho> Cimi: did you  receive the debian folder?
<Cimi> nothing yet
<Cimi> alice sucks
<lapo> Cimi: gmail
<Trevinho> alice sucks... lol... said in english it sounds better :D
<Cimi> :D
<lizardking> Aahaahh loool
<lizardking> Alice is my girlfriend, trevi!  :( (joke)
<troy_s> Has anyone been using the LUA engine yet?
<lizardking> troy_s: What is the LUA engine?
<lizardking> http://dborg.wordpress.com/tag/gnome/ is this?
<lizardking> The color are quite ugly : P
<lizardking> mhh it seems a mix of ubuntulooks,clearlooks, and murrine glassy
<troy_s> Lua pretty much puts an end to engine writing.
<troy_s> It is a LUA scripted frontend with a Cairo drawing backend.
<troy_s> It doesn't do anything other than provide a scripting interface
<troy_s> So 'engines' are basically obsolete.
<troy_s> dborg wrote it -- very clever.
<troy_s> The colours have nothing to do with it...
<troy_s> clearlooks / murrine / etc are all hard coded engines -- not versatile.  Lua will be able to do just about anything.
<lapo> troy_s: sounds cool
<lapo> troy_s: well it let's you write "engines" with higher level programming language tho :-)
<lizardking> i understand now
<lizardking> I did not read the post
<lapo> or even it let's you script "engines" :-)
<lizardking> Before you said "LUA Engines" I think that was a new one
<troy_s> Indeed.
<troy_s> Well technically it _is_ an engine.
<troy_s> But it has the potential to be an engine to end all engines.
<troy_s> In that you do not need to recompile the 'engine' to see the effects of the work.
<troy_s> Quite brilliant really.
<lapo> yes it is
<Cimi> 2 problems
<lapo> btw It solves the problem of user installing themes, not artists doing them
<Cimi> 1) gtkrc have to get updated "engines"
<troy_s> 1) ???
<Cimi> for example if someone port murrine to LUA
<lapo> Cimi: that lua engine is (well will be) everything you need
<Cimi> then every themes that use murrine  ported to lua need to reupdate their gtkrc every time i make a release
<Cimi> and this is absolutely _bad_
<lapo> Cimi: nope, that engines do all the drawing stuff via scripting so you won't need murrine at all
<troy_s> Actually no.
<troy_s> You completely misunderstand
<troy_s> It is far superior than engine writing
<dborg__> cimi is still thinking about lots of people customising a base engine. of course with lua scripts themes will always be complete forks, just like metacity themes
<Cimi> exactly
<troy_s> For one, you aren't relying on the fundamental skills to prevent memory leaks and good coding.
<dborg__> there is nothing bad about forking themes. and it gives you much better control about your theme
<troy_s> Well theoretically with LUA you can escape the need to install further themes.
<lapo> troy_s: yep, a lot, but you need to master lua scripting isted of c (which is far better) but you have to know it, and prsonally speaking I prefer to pass mockups to coders :-)
<Cimi> dborg__, yes dborg
<troy_s> One theme engine.
<Cimi> but take every murrine themes on gnomelook
<Cimi> there are 50 (i guess)
<dborg__> lapo: I try to make it dead simple :) knowing lua code will be a plus but not required
<Cimi> consider them ported to lua
<troy_s> What made you choose Lua dborg, as opposed to say, python?
<lizardking> mhh interesting
<lapo> dborg__: great, come on then finish it, now! :-)
<troy_s> Port it once.
<Cimi> every "themes" need to update their theme every "murrine" release
<dborg__> troy_s: lua is made to be small and fast, running the python interpreter for every gtk app would be a lot of overhead
<troy_s> Yes... but with lua once you write it in lua you can throw away the rewriting process.
<troy_s> dborg -- ahh.
<lizardking> let's prove it cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@anoncvs.gnome.org:/cvs/gnome -z3 co gtk-engines
<troy_s> Very solid reasoning.
<Cimi> *every themer
<troy_s> cimi -- once ported though, no need for the engine at all.
<dborg__> troy_s: did you test it already with the example theme I sent you?
<troy_s> You are relying on dborg's frontend to access the cairo work.
<troy_s> trying to finish up metacity.
<Cimi> troy_s, consider i change the style of a button
<troy_s> then i am migrating onto gtk
<Cimi> every themer wuill have to reupdate their themes
<troy_s> Cimi -- Lua replaces murrine
<troy_s> The 'theme' is stored in Lua script.
<lizardking> Cimi: I think you are not more able to write button afet LUA
<troy_s> Which does _not_ require a recompile.
<dborg> Cimi: what makes you think that themers _want_ their themes to be updated?
<troy_s> That's the beauty of Lua
<troy_s> the Lua engine makes all the engines obsolete
<Cimi> dborg, if my new "button design" is better
<troy_s> So that the coders can focus on keeping Lua tight, and the artists can write themes without worrying about it.
<dborg> Cimi: if murrine would be ported to lua, you wouldn't write "themes for murrine" anymore, but "themes based on murrine" instead
<Cimi> then people need to drag and drop my changes in the lua script
<Cimi> am i correct?
<troy_s> No.
<troy_s> Your 'murrine' would be basically a set of functions in Lua.
<Cimi> yes
<troy_s> If you changed it,
<dborg> Cimi: if they want to use it, of course. you take the features you want from any theme or write your own.
<troy_s> i believe lua has inheritance doesn't it dborg?
<troy_s> So you could use "parent of class is Cimi.murrine" and override where appropriate?
<Cimi> i like a lot the benefits of lua
<Cimi> and surely i will port it to dborg's engine
<troy_s> It is _amazingly_ versatile.
<Cimi> yes
<troy_s> I have been perusing the code...
<troy_s> One benefit is that you don't need to recompile
<Cimi> it's good for few and fast mods
<troy_s> which is _massive_
<Cimi> or for fast themes
<dborg> troy_s: nope, the engine simply calls a function from the script. you could probably include another script, but in general I think it's better if each theme is self-contained
<troy_s> It's good for all mods.  The complexity is limited only by the Lua code.
<Cimi> but i don't think it is better for "wide used" themes
<troy_s> dborg -- you are probably right on that.
<troy_s> Otherwise it is dependency hell.
<troy_s> Cimi -- what makes you stake that claim?
<dborg> yes
<troy_s> I suppose you will need to wait and see.  I intend to start using it immediately.
<lapo> dborg: only one request, nice and complete documentation for poor artists on how to use it! :-)
<Cimi> troy_s, me too
<troy_s> the _real_ beauty of Lua will shine to end users who want
<troy_s> to demonstrate
<Cimi> but for "little" engines
<troy_s> how quickly it will be to
<troy_s> change colours.
<Cimi> not an huge one as murrine
<lizardking> here in cvs downloaded I see only C files not Python one
<troy_s> Silly.
<troy_s> Lizardking -- it is a true 'engine'
<troy_s> so it is in C.
<troy_s> import it, build it,
<troy_s> and migrate it into the proper engine directory.
<lizardking> troy_s: ok
<troy_s> To an end user, the designers can write 100s of different variations and make them completely easily to change theoretically.
<troy_s> No theme engine for different colours.
<troy_s> etc.
<dborg> currently battle for wesnoth is killing my time :/ otherwise it might already be finished
<troy_s> Wesnoth is worthy ;)
<dborg> yeah
<troy_s> Although the timed scenarios make me ill.
<lapo> dborg: apt-get remove it now! :-)
<dborg> no apt-get here ;)
<troy_s> what are you deving on dborg?
<troy_s> Now that you have left Ubuntu.
<dborg> paldo
<lapo> have you got rm there? :-)
<troy_s> Paldo?
<dborg> forget it lapo ;)
<lapo> eheh
<lapo> ah is it the upkg distro?
<troy_s> Never heard of it... just visited paldo dot org now.
<dborg> paldo is a small unknown distribution by the vala devs. it is also based on gnome and the "just works" idea, but much more basic
<dborg> yes lapo
<lapo> I need to try that one
<troy_s> Anyways dborg, how many of the widgets does Lua currently touch?
<troy_s> I presume it is about trapping the signals for them?
<dborg> troy_s: mostly, some widgets require certain tweaks. I do the widget support and example implementation at the same time, so it sometimes takes a while to get it right
<dborg> troy_s: my list of missing widgets: http://pastebin.co.uk/8147
<troy_s> Ahh.
<troy_s> Not too many left really.
<dborg> the one with exclamation marks are important
<troy_s> Frame... hrm.
<dborg> yes, not much work left
<troy_s> Does frame handle the pre-window drawing before metacity?
<troy_s> Or is that more of a panel frame.
<dborg> the frame you get around a group of options for example, but also the frame around a listview, etc
<troy_s> Ahh... groupbox.
<troy_s> With you.
<dborg> right
<troy_s> It would seem to me that Lua is quite an important engine and probably should be shipped with the basic engines package.
<troy_s> Considering that it is the most versatile developed yet.
<Cimi> yes
<Cimi> i agree
<Cimi> gnome needs good engines
<Cimi> and good style
<troy_s> It needs _one_ good engine.
<lapo> isn't it in gnome-engines already?
<troy_s> With a good scripting backend.
<Cimi> troy_s, yes
<Cimi> dborg, how slow is it?
<troy_s> The reality is that if every theme engine writer jumped onto it, it would be very robust.
<troy_s> As it would get the little bits filled in quickly.
<lapo> very true
<troy_s> Cimi -- depends on the coding practices.
<troy_s> Cimi -- Lua is pretty blazingly fast as a scripting engine.
<troy_s> So the overhead is minimal.
<troy_s> But if you waste cycles with poor coding practices, I am quite certain that it can be made to grind to a halt.
<troy_s> dborg might have some benches on a comparable type of look against look thing.
<Cimi> i'm quite good in optimizing code
<Cimi> the problem is that not all of us are good in it
<Cimi> btw this is not our problem
<lapo> Cimi: ok know you have no excuses to jump on the lua engin bandwagon then :-)
<lapo> s/know/now/
<Cimi> the few themes that will be shipped to gnome 2.18-20 have to be fast
<dborg> you can't really do much wrong with your scripting, the slowness will mostly be caused by the type of cairo drawing ops you use. in comparison a lua theme is a little slower, but still way faster than a pixmap theme
<Cimi> dborg, ok very fine!
<dborg> if you want a blazingly fast theme, you shouldn't even use cairo ;)
<troy_s> I think the era of targetting the lowest common denominator of computing is getting rather old.
<lapo> dborg: or work on cairo to make it draw things faster :-)
<troy_s> Considering that a 3000 class amd 32 bit chip is less than 30 dollars these days.
<troy_s> +1 to the latter.
<Cimi> troy_s, anyway we MUST do good code
<troy_s> Yes.
<troy_s> Good code is always a must.
<Cimi> and not code bad just because it's not important
<troy_s> Cimi -- you should use your excellent skills to dive into Lua.
<troy_s> And help dborg finish it.
<dborg> lapo: it doesn't matter, anti aliased smooth corners and complex translucent gradients will always be slower than drawing straight pixels with gdk :)
<Cimi> i will take a look next weeks
<Cimi> anyway murrine will never stop to exist until i find a solution with lua scripts
<Cimi> i will port murrine on lua
<lapo> dborg: lua engine sounds coo, but please tell me that you are still working on scrathpad
<Cimi> but this will not stop murrine development
<lapo> Scratchpad even
<dborg> lapo: sure, in fact I'm itching to work on it again. but I'm forcing myself to finish the lua engine first... since it's almost done
<troy_s> Force harder Wesnoth guy ;)
<lapo> dborg: wesnoth really need to get removed by your machine eh :-)
<lapo> dborg: you should eventually propose scratchpad for inclusion in gnome, I really think it's smarter, meaner, better then gedit
<dborg> lapo: but it is totally non-conformist :) I don't think it would fit in well yet. it's also very developer oriented (then again, gedit isn't exactly plain anymore either)
<lapo> dborg: that's the cool part
<dborg> also, gedit is _much_ more polished and stable, especially with regards to internationalisation and file handling
<lapo> dborg: yep that's a good point, but you can cure it, no? :-)
<dborg> it's not my priority :) first and foremost I want to make an editor that works great for 95% of all users, instead of focusing too much on the remaining 5%. gedit is much more conservative and that's probably a good thing for a default editor that simply may not fail
<troy_s> grr lua is disabled by default in autogen.sh
<troy_s> irritating.
<dborg> sure
<troy_s> in theory, is animation possible with the engine?"
<dborg> yes, but it would be hacky just like in clearlooks, etc. I will probably not implement it before a "clean" method is found
<troy_s> dborg -- that will require the gnome architects to implement it at the api level i take it?
<troy_s> dborg -- a Lua wiki on your site might help for designers to dump their experiences in the form of documentation :)
<troy_s> save you a little work.
<dborg> troy_s: that's a good idea, but it should probably be somewhere on live.gnome.org
<dborg> if you want to start one, I would be very grateful ;) just keep in mind that things can still change drastically (but I hope not)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-05
<_MMA_> troy_s: ping
<troy_s> _MMA_ go
<_MMA_> Hi sir.
<_MMA_> do you have a sec to jump on #ubuntustudio?
<troy_s> who's idea was it to put the enlarge and minimize to desktop functionality in the top right corner?
<troy_s> erk
<troy_s> ww.
<TheSheep> do you maybe know if murrina theme engine is going to be included in feisty?
<_MMA_> Yep.
<_MMA_> Ubuntu Studio is using it for its theme. We even had code added to the engine for us.
<TheSheep> great! thanks
<_MMA_> REALLY early screenshot: http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/6425/screenshot1uq7.png
<_MMA_> Needs some color/usability tweaks.
<TheSheep> the blue kills :)
* _MMA_ loves the blue. :)
* TheSheep feels the back of his head smoking...
<TheSheep> troy_s: as far as I know it kinda just "happened" at Apple, and then everyone copied it...
<TheSheep> troy_s: now it's just very well established tradition, kinda like blue for links
<troy_s> TheSheep -- regarding what?  Anatomy of a desktop styling?
<troy_s> It is quite a logical progression -- to extend the desktop window into a 'larger' window based on user habits.
<TheSheep> 03:42 < troy_s> who's idea was it to put the enlarge and minimize to desktop functionality in the top right corner?
<troy_s> I find it rather interesting in light of what we were discussing the other day.
<TheSheep> troy_s: personally I think that the corner is too precious to "waste" it like that :)
<TheSheep> troy_s: I mean, logout is not the same as closing an app
<TheSheep> otoh, the "obviousness" has its benefits
<troy_s> Well... again -- it is not intended for power user layouts.
<troy_s> Most power users have clutter all over the place, but they know exactly what is where.
<TheSheep> but I'm not convinced about usefulness of the 'cascade' button :)
<troy_s> Back to artwork.
<troy_s> Erm
<troy_s> Sorry...
<troy_s> I think it is quite clever actually.
<troy_s> Organize your windows -- tile / something
<troy_s> It is one of those things that folks who are newer would appreciate.
<TheSheep> troy_s: probably a question of style of work
<_MMA_> troy_s: Did you see my questions on #ubuntustudio?
<troy_s> Erm...
<troy_s> No... backtracking.
<troy_s> Give me a few.
<_MMA_> np. ;)
<_MMA_> take your time.
<troy_s> Well the more I think about it
<troy_s> The more I am thinking 18% grey is probably the best route.
<troy_s> Simply for functionality.
<troy_s> I know it is rather drab, but it truly works towards a 'studio' environment.
<troy_s> Family time for a while.  Back in a while.
<troy_s> Feel free to pm me
<_MMA_> See, the original idea was to be close to Ardour. Thats the reason.
<_MMA_> lol. Me to.
<_MMA_> (wife time)
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-01-07
<coz_> evening I was reding this    http://mail.google.com/mail/?auth=DQAAAG8AAABShUtJ3Qbao-4FE7YuU30SaquBqZCyzEuOkFMhaNTv-iG_BtaBwHKE2sR_DSQ1StUOD-Xm3n-9tw8vx0ubwj59Ie37kDGl90lPCFVXlTo1zIV_rSfqJwm1slE2Smj2bOw4zF_6nGSbfi2dKJpNSNI1
<coz_> what has come of the monthy contest . will it be initialized?
<coz_> drn for get that there
<_MMA_> Hi guys. Ive been testing the -lowlatency and -generic kernels. On every one I get random shutdowns on boot. Id say 1/3rd of the time.
<_MMA_> Should I report a bug?
<_MMA_> CRAP!! Wrong channel. :-D
<PingunZ> hey troy_s
<recon39> hello everyone
<recon39> does anyone in here know how to  setup a QTDIR on ubuntu
#ubuntu-artwork 2007-12-31
<rencore_> hello
<rencore_> i have some questions
<somerville32> !ask | rencore_
<ubotu> rencore_: Don't ask to ask a question, ask the question --On One Line -- that you need answered, and if anyone knows the answer they will most likely answer. :-)
<rencore_> yea i know
<rencore_> how can i start helping design graphics for ubuntu and is there any places other than art.gnome where i can learn to theme
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-01
<troy_s> nothing can save us.
<andreasn> hm?
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-02
<troy_s> DID I JUST READ THAT EMAIL ON THE LIST?
<troy_s> grr.
<melaren> If you send a message to ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com without signing up does it still send to the list?
<troy_s> melaren: It sits in a slush until an admin visually filters it iirc.
<troy_s> melaren: If you want to be certain the list gets the message, the only way that I know of is to sign up for the list.
<troy_s> melaren: That help?
<melaren> troy_s, Sure does, thanks!
<yoshiznit124> has anyone considered incorporating the release's animal (like a heron) into the default wallpaper?
<BHSPitLappy> I CANNOT BELIEVE WE FORGOT TO CONSIDER THAT
<BHSPitLappy> troy_s, what post enraged you so?
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: just the same old rubbish.
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: and lol to your last comment.
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: I was rather disappointed for having wasted Justin's time with the list.
<BHSPitLappy> this Gelatin business doesn't do anything for me
<BHSPitLappy> it's very well-polished-looking though
<BHSPitLappy> never mind, mockups can't be polished
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: What gelatin link?
<BHSPitLappy> troy_s, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/gelatin
<BHSPitLappy> it's on the top of the linux section of digg
<troy_s> BHSPitCSP: I thought the choice of wallpapers has been getting closer to Ubuntu however -- the grain from Ken's effort.  Laren's submission is marred by the fact that the tonal range is balanced out with the natural greens in the snapshots -- a bit of a cheat.  The wall alone (with theme details) is back into the monotone mode slightly (not _quite_ as bad as Ubuntu default)
<troy_s> BHSPitLappy: It is probably the best wallpaper choice thematically.  That said, everything is very 'bloaty' fat.
<troy_s> Not quite pulling along the 'elegant' line from my guesswork.
<troy_s> and of course i find the tango bits naff as hell.
<troy_s> but with kwwii's monochromatics and a few twiddles, that would be about 1000000 times better than where ubuntu currently is at.
<lapo> hi
<troy_s> lapo: Greetz lapo!
<troy_s> wholly crap.
<troy_s> darn... where is Toma.
<troy_s> I laugh out loud when I look at that bug of his.
<troy_s> Too bloody funny.
<troy_s> It is like some pothead jailbird bug.
<troy_s> Hilarious.
<Xadacka> Hello World
<Xadacka> Hey anyone here?
<troy_s> Xadacka: possibly.
<troy_s> Xadacka: What's up Xadacka
<troy_s> ?
<rainwalker> Just popping in to say that it IS possible to be modern WITHOUT using gloss: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Union?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Union_v0-2.jpg
<thorwil> wow. good thing he popped in!!
<troy_s> thorwil: Phew.  You missed another helpful guy earlier... I'll copy and paste to share the wisdom...
<troy_s> <yoshiznit124> has anyone considered incorporating the release's animal (like a heron) into the default wallpaper?
<troy_s>  /join #jadedfeckerclub
<thorwil> wow!
<troy_s> thorwil: WOW
<troy_s> thorwil: Let me look deeper into rainwalker's thinking...
<thorwil> troy_s: wait, wait, we could combine that_ a non-glossy heron
<troy_s> thorwil: GLOSS = MODERN
<troy_s> thorwil: Which about tells you the validity of the statement to begin with.
<Tm_T> troy_s: true
<troy_s> thorwil: WOOO WHAT ABOUT A GLOSSY HERON!
<thorwil> troy_s: no problem, i think we are in the post pots modern era
<troy_s> modern!
<troy_s> I unfortunately end up sounding like someone who believes that gloss is the sole root of Ubuntu's problem (which has been actually gone for a bit -- but seems to pop up in every tacky mock I see)
<troy_s> Glossy is symptomatic.  It still leaves us as we are now -- without style.
<troy_s> (in addition to a few other intangibles such as context, audience, motif, thematic, etc.)
<troy_s> Does anyone see an interesting 'style' developing out there in the wild?
<troy_s> thorwil: LOL -- wtf is "PostPotsModern" LOL -- I love it.
<thorwil> troy_s: the pots was meant to be a second post
<troy_s> "We aren't po-mo, we are po-pot-mo."
<troy_s> i know
<troy_s> it looks better as pots!
<thorwil> troy_s: well, post modernism needs closure, but what comes afterwards?
<troy_s> thorwil: Modernism got closure.  Post-Modernism.  But a good question.  I suppose we have been stuck in Post-Modernism-Oops-Britney-Spearsism for a while.
<thorwil> oopism!
<troy_s> thorwil: In our world, something like a neo-ren (done 19th late cen to early 20th) or neo-romaticism.
<troy_s> probably most appropriate.
<thorwil> how dare firefox freeze when i'm writing  a post pots modern post!
<troy_s> unfortunately we have not enough style or class to get anywhere close to that just yet.  we need a bastion of style and class to have a bloody movement.  we are a _wee_ tad off from that.
<troy_s> lol
<thorwil> troy_s: isn't neo-romaticism an aspect of post modernism?
<troy_s> thorwil: Po-mo gets thrown around just about everywhere.
<troy_s> thorwil: From the time I was in school, I can honestly say that it has gotten even cloudier than when it started.
<thorwil> heh yeah, another term that is everyones bitch, if i may say :)
<troy_s> thorwil: Probably apt.  When I was studying, po-mo had elements of what is commonplace today -- the idea of the subject involvement / third wall removal and non-linear was rather hip (especially in novels)
<troy_s> thorwil: Memento was sort of a 'mainstream' po-mo example, followed up by a far more adept 21Grams (although still rather bound up in narrative linearism).  Of course anyone from Europe familiar with decent cinema could probably cite a few auteurs who were doing that sort of thing before those hit mainline.
<thorwil> the way i got to know it was taking modern lines and adding stuff in eclectic ways
 * thorwil goes on a 3rd try to post a picture
<thorwil> http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/ubuntu-brainstorm-5/
<thorwil> not too happy, but had to try it
<troy_s> yeah i don't know if I could say that was po -mo... most of what i "know" as po-mo is somewhere between dadaist / surrealist meets "trendy".
<troy_s> it is something like imagining a pop-culture sales brochure or building architecture warped out in some way that makes it almost unattractive to that very audience.
<troy_s> i remember someone pointed me to a good gallery on po-mo stuffs... i wonder if i could find it.
<thorwil> i'll be off in seconds
<troy_s> thorwil: Ditto...
<troy_s> this to me is rather po-mo
<troy_s> http://www.whitelead.com/jrh/screenshots/cafeteria.JPG
<thorwil> jepp, i can agree to that :)
<troy_s> http://www.whitelead.com/jrh/screenshots/
<troy_s> he did a whole series... rather... good commentary.
<thorwil> troy_s: i know a video in that style
<thorwil> troy_s: gotta run, see you!
<troy_s> thorwil: Ciao thorwil
<lassegul_> :q!
<_MMA_> http://betatype.com/node/36
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-03
<lapo> hi
<BHSPitLappy> hiya
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-04
<lapo> hi
<AnAnt> Hello, I have a legal question
<AnAnt> we are doing an artwork package, some themes were derived from Human theme, is there a legal impact on this ?
<troy_s> *sigh*
<troy_s> thorwil: Wake up damn you.
<thorwil> troy_s: it's 21:53 here ... :)
<troy_s> thorwil: THAT'S NO EXCUSE!
<troy_s> thorwil: How's things?
<thorwil> troy_s: red nosed thanks to a flu. otherwise fine. workin on the brainstorm and bugs thing has been fun so far. any you?
<thorwil> and, even
<troy_s> thorwil: Good thanks.
<nand> thorwil: Hi! When you are free, could we discuss of this logo? :)
<thorwil> nand: i am free
<nand> Ok. I got your mail, and I admit I'm not usually involved into integrating artwork on projects
<thorwil> nand: i was about to answer that i could stylize the bug a bit
<thorwil> nand: but i'd say troy_s has a good point ;)
<thorwil> nand: technical problems?
<nand> thorwil: no, everything is ok :)
<nand> If I had understood well, what you were telling me is that my interpretation of a logo can be different of others?
<thorwil> nand: what troy got at in my words: the logo has an artistic feel, an emotional quality. you should not be afraid of that, but rather embrace it. because some emotional reaction/attachment of the users would be a good thing
<nand> thorwil: ooh sorry I just realize I mistook troy for you, _again_
<nand> thorwil: Ok, I see!
<thorwil> nand: of all the possible people i could be mistaken for, troy isn't a bad choice ;)
<nand> thorwil: As I said I am not usually involved with artwork, so feel free to push your ideas and mockups if you think I'm on the wrong path!
<thorwil> nand: i assumed your are the decider?
<nand> thorwil: yes
<thorwil> nand: if you really want a more stylized logo, you can have it. nobody wins if i would be stubborn about this ;)
<nand> thorwil: If you are ok with the extra work, yes, thanks :)
<thorwil> nand: i'm actually please about your style of feedback and use of descriptive language. it's what i had to ask for in other places ...
<thorwil> nand: i'll likely get at it tomorrow, shouldn't take too long
<thorwil> i'll be off in a few minutes
<nand> thorwil: And I must say I'm really pleased at how you understand directions and quickly find very pertinent solutions.
<thorwil> :)
<nand> thorwil: no probem, take your time, the website will be probably released in one month or so
<thorwil> good bye!
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-05
<coz_> good day all
<troy_s> darn
<troy_s> missed coz.
<KidProQuo> does anyone know what's happening with regards to the gobuntu theme
<AnAnt> Hello, we are doing an artwork package, some themes were derived from Human theme, is there a legal impact on this ?
<thorwil> nand: hi! say, your concerns are limited to the bug, the circle segments and triangles can stay as the are?
<nand> thorwil: hi! yes, you're right.
<AnAnt_> Hello , is anyone here ?
<thorwil> nope
<AnAnt_> ok, I am making a package for some artwork  that is based/derived from Human themes artwork which is licensed under Creative Commons license, my question, is how to mention in the copyright file the attribution for the author of the original Human themes artwork ?
<thorwil> AnAnt_: i think the author can or should specify how attribution should happen. in absence of such information, CC might have general guidelines
<thorwil> AnAnt_: stating that your work is based on another work, with a link where said work can be obtained and the authors name should do it
<AnAnt_> ok, thanks
<thorwil> nand: read your mail, cool. i will send you a mail with the selected svg, png and jpg ready for use. could you host both SVGs to make them available to the list? wordpress is silly about format restrictions
<nand> thorwil: Ok, I'll do that
<thorwil> good
 * thorwil -> dinner
<nand> thorwil: Oh, I forgot : Could you also give me the idea logo without background please? I may prove useful when trying to make the main banner
<thorwil> nand: i will
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-01-06
<kwwii> re
<kwwii> :-)
<Tm_T> kwwii: fd
<kwwii> Tm_T: howdy
<Tm_T> kwwii: about Kubuntu and KDE themes (yes, themes, not styles)
<Tm_T> kwwii: theme manager doesn't have Kubuntu defaults as theme, right? if so, is it possible to have? as quick way to get back to our defaults
<kwwii> Tm_T: in kde there is no option once you change certain parts to get back to the def. I think
<Tm_T> kwwii: exactly, thus theme does provide visual parts atleast
<kwwii> right, every new user will still get a default
<Tm_T> yes
<kwwii> but there is no global theme setter or such
<Tm_T> I know
<Tm_T> I
<Tm_T> I'm talking only and only that silly KDE theme manager thingy, it doesn't save much, but, if it's only simple thing to do, why not?
<Tm_T> btw it is evil piece of software, just previewing theme will select it ;(
<Tm_T> could surprise you one or two times
<Tm_T> kwwii: anyway, very minor thing, but might help some people, I'm actually asking this because many have asked "why not" from me
<thorwil> nand: hi! i would like to remind you of hosting the SVGs ;)
<nand> thorwil: hey! I was about to send you a mail. I did not receive anything! :p
 * thorwil looks into send folder
 * nand checks again his tricky filters
<thorwil> nand: at least it left my outbox. subject: Logo-bulb with transparency and annoying bugs set
<nand> at ndeschildre@gmail.com ?
<thorwil> yes
<nand> Well, nothing here... O_o
<thorwil> i'll send it again
<nand> could you give it another try?
<nand> yes thx
<nand> I'm going for dinner, I'll be back in half an hour
<thorwil> nand: ok, send
<nand> thorwil: ooook. I don't know why, but GMail spam filter doesn't like you!
<thorwil> nand: sneef :(
<nand> Maybe the lack of contents... Anyway, I'll host them and start a new thread
<nand> thorwil: Oh, and could you send me as well the idea logo without background? And the svg for the idea logo please? thx
<thorwil> nand: so you did get it out of your spam folder? the idea logo without background was included. svg comes next
<nand> thorwil: Yes, I got the png idea logo with background, the jpg, png and svg bug logo.
<thorwil> nand: i'm pretty sure the idea logo is with alpha. what are you using to look at it?
<nand> thorwil: Oh, sorry, when I was talking about no background, I was meaning no brown background.
<thorwil> nand: do you have inkscape at hand?
<nand> thorwil: no
 * nand is installing it.
<nand> thorwil: yes indeed, the spam filter like reading some contents :)
<thorwil> nand: svg coming your way. once you have it, you can simply load it into inkscape, click the brown background once and hit delete
<thorwil> heh
<nand> thorwil: thanks
<thorwil> nand: then do select-all and export. this way you can apply tweaks yourself f you want to and export to any size
<nand> whoah! It does look nice in a greater size
<thorwil> :)
<nand> Thanks for all again. I'll host them and start a new thread
<thorwil> nand: just note that line-width ends up wrong if you export to other than actual size. sometimes that's fine, but often it's better to scale things in inkscape
<thorwil> nand: it was my pleasure, cool
<nand> ok
<thorwil> nand: i might get at the image-links during the week
<nand> thorwil: Ok thanks. Ping me on IRC or mail if you need anything
<nand> thorwil: Hmm... My host seems down for now. I'll give a try later
<thorwil> ok
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-29
<SealV> miffan4 is fully painted, need to remove a few errors.
<SealV> background gradient testing: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/miffantestwall343.jpg
<SealV> critiques? if anyone is still on
<DBO> Cimi, you here?
<Cimi> DBO, y
<SealV> background gradient testing: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/miffantestwall343.jpg
<SealV> critiques?
<thorwil> SealV: i'd reduce the contrast between rabbit and background
<thorwil> SealV: what aspect ratio is that?
 * thorwil -> dinner
<SealV> 4:3
<SealV> damn I missed him
<MadsRH> Has anyone submitted a Alpha wallpaper as Kenneth requested on the mailinglist? Just courius :-)
<MadsRH> Would be great for alpha and beat testers
<thorwil> back
 * thorwil pokes kwwii 
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/AlphaBackgrounds
<thorwil> SealV: consider adding your rabbit ^
<SealV> wiki editing is weird
<thorwil> one gets used to it :)
<kwwii> hey guys
<SealV> hey
<thorwil> hi ken
<kwwii> SealV: awesome design you posted a while ago
<kwwii> really nifty
<kwwii> s/design/sketch
<SealV> thanks :3
<kwwii> put that on a background and I would put it in jaunty asap
<kwwii> we can put something in right away to make it visually different up until later in the cycle
<SealV> did you see this yet? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/sealx/miffantestwall343.jpg
<SealV> the gradient can be changed.
<kwwii> nope, hadn't seen that yet
<kwwii> mind if I pass that around for consideration?
<SealV> no prob
<thorwil> the rabbit should sit a little higher to be save from cropping on widescreen
<_MMA_> thorwil: More toward the center as settings things to "Zoom" only crops the sides.
<thorwil> _MMA_: explain how you get to 16:9 from a 4:3 image by cropping the sides
<SealV> I am actually prepping the xcf file so y'all can play around with it you like. what a good place to up an xcf file?
<thorwil> the wiki?
<_MMA_> thorwil: Well actually, yeah. This image should be made widescreen. The the "Zoom" thing works.
<_MMA_> *Then
<SealV> k, uploading to wiki.
<kwwii> hey _MMA_
 * _MMA_ waves.
<SealV> its uploaded,  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/AlphaBackgrounds
<thorwil> _MMA_: actually zoom crops top and bottom, if needed. it simply scales the image until both height and width of the screen are filled
<_MMA_> thorwil: It depends on the aspect of the image. widescreen crops the sides on a 4:3 screen and 4:3 crops top/bottom to get widescreen.
<_MMA_> Creating in widescreen keeps the resolution higher though. That's why I suggested that this go wide now.
<thorwil> anyway, best control of layout in cases like this can be had by using a widescreen format
<thorwil> heh, right
<_MMA_> :P
<SealV> lol
<thorwil> SealV: cool. but attachments have to be lined from the wiki page, as hardly anyway looks at the list of attachments
<SealV> editing right as we speak
<thorwil> ah, ok
<thorwil> _MMA_: i see your :p didn't suffer from the holidays ;p
<_MMA_> nope
<thorwil> now if only SealV would have had that rabbit a bit earlier, my crayon would have remained in the drawer
 * thorwil hopes he didn't slaughter his tenses too much
<SealV> not a good place for a crayon. they yearn to spill their lives on paper
<SealV> done editing
<thorwil> excellent
<thorwil> SealV: btw, do you have something like an online portfolio?
<SealV> I have a deviantart account that I never use. I suppose my email wont work will it?
<thorwil> portfolio via email? rather not :)
<thorwil> gotta go, good night! :)
 * _MMA_ has started to put stuff on his DA account for just this reason. I gotta add alot more.
<_MMA_> Night.
<SealV> night
<SealV> islingt0ner.deviantart.com
<SealV> whats ironic is that I stopped posting to DA almost a month after getting a tablet
<BHSPitLappy> I bought a tablet and ubuntu won't recognize it.
<kwwii> BHSPitLappy: there will be a good deal of work on this for jaunty
<BHSPitLappy> hopefully.
<kwwii> what kind do you have?
<BHSPitLappy> Is there some kind of call for info on this?  Device ID's and stuff?
<BHSPitLappy> kwwii, it's a DigiPro
<kwwii> BHSPitLappy: the wacoms work really well
<BHSPitLappy> well duh
<kwwii> yes, every hardware device has a unique device id
<BHSPitLappy> I know, I mean is there a call for information and testing on this topic, since you say there's work being done
<BHSPitLappy> I know they were asking for details on peoples' 3G cards before Intrepid
<kwwii> there will be more information and calls for testing a little later in the cycle
<kwwii> right now we are just starting work
<kwwii> collecting how things work already, automating it, etc
<kwwii> this work is only to simplify/automate the configuration process, not to write drivers for tablets which currently don't work
<SealV> thats awesome, mind you my wacom has been recognized since 6.10
<_MMA_> IMO it's really the only brand to buy. They have a range of products to fit most budgets.
<BHSPitLappy> well I make less than $9/hr, so meh
<BHSPitLappy> I bought the $35 one from Woot
<BHSPitLappy> http://www.woot.com/Blog/ViewEntry.aspx?Id=5028
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-30
<thorwil> kwwii: morning! added a derivative of Saleel's work to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/AlphaBackgrounds
<BHSPitLappy> thorwil, nice
<thorwil> ty :)
<BHSPitLappy> though it's kinda hard to go wrong designing specifically for an alpha release :P
<thorwil> BHSPitLappy: i don't think so. for example, the last image on the wiki, that would be going wrong in my eyes ;p
<thorwil> the fact that we can take a little more freedom because it's "only for the alphas" should be taken advantage of
<BHSPitLappy> heh
<BHSPitLappy> I do agree on that
<thorwil> by doing something clearly different, hopefully widening people's conception of what could be ubuntu-design
<BHSPitLappy> I just mean that you can produce something "rough" (a sketch), and it's right for the job
<thorwil> sure, that's what i did. then Saleel came along with something much less rough :)
<kwwii> thorwil: cool
<kwwii> thorwil: nice idea with the green
<thorwil> kwwii: the rabbit was asking for it :)
<kwwii> ;)
<BHSPitLappy> About to upload my own silly variation
<tavish> hello! i am having some problem with the colours in this logo for sahana. i want some suggestions regardind the background and also the colours in the earthflower
<tavish> http://www.tinypic.ws/files/ztqmixkeswlp3rx7nxte.png
<tavish> please
<BHSPitLappy> thorwil, added my own :P
<tavish> hellp
<_MMA_> Mornin'
<thorwil> good morning _MMA_
<thorwil> kwwii: next cycle, we should consider doing a build-up series for the alphas :)
<_MMA_> thorwil: Do you mean work out a final wall now, but show it in different stages throughout the alphas? Slowly adding more and more detail or whatever?
<thorwil> _MMA_: yes, allthough it doesn't have to be all that literal, it's having a progression that counts
<_MMA_> Sure. Sounds fun.
<_MMA_> Or hell. You could even have the final wall, and just add pieces to it 'till final release like a puzzle. Revealing different parts.
<_MMA_> luisbg: Last episode of "The IT Crowd" season 3 is out.
<_MMA_> Crap. Wrong channel. :P (though Luis is in here)
<kwwii> thorwil: that would assume we know what the final artwork/artist is before the work on the release even starts
<thorwil> kwwii: no, would be done with total disregard of what will be made for the final release
<kwwii> thorwil: ahhh, now I see
<thorwil> a series that ends with the last pre-release
<kwwii> that might work
<SealV> posted the other wall on the wiki, I prefer it because svg, also minimal
<luisbg> _MMA_, lol, maybe the rest of the channel is also interested in IT Crowd
<luisbg> kwwii, hey! how was christmas eve?
<SealV> IT Crowd: awesome
<luisbg> SealV, :)
 * _MMA_ tries to stay on topic, but yeah. \m/
<luisbg> have you tried to turn it off again?
<kwwii> luisbg: busy :-)
<kwwii> and yours?
<kwwii> I have been cooking every day for the last week+
<luisbg> kwwii, busy as well but very good
<luisbg> being cooked for all last week :P
<luisbg> running around the house, I gotta go now downtown to buy some stuff
<kwwii> one day my son will fondly remember dad's home cooked meals :p
<luisbg> once he moves to college
<luisbg> he will miss daddy's food the most
<luisbg> :P
<kwwii> I hope he makes it that far ;)
<kwwii> as soon as possible
<luisbg> heh!
<luisbg> you want to skip the great puberty when he becomes a rebel and avoids the imperialistic parents as much as possible?
<thorwil> what, darth ken?
<kwwii> lol
<luisbg> bbl
<kwwii> well, my szeschuan beef calls...be back after dinner
 * thorwil wonders about prelight and perhaps even active/depressed for entry widgets
#ubuntu-artwork 2008-12-31
<djsiegel> ah, ok
 * gaminggeek waves
<djsiegel> heyo
<DBO> hey gaminggeek
<gaminggeek> hey DBO
<gaminggeek> whats up?
<DBO> hacking away on Docky
<gaminggeek> sweet :)
<gaminggeek> just code clean up?
<DBO> well I got a lot of that done
<DBO> but yes
<gaminggeek> fun :)
 * _MMA_ waves.
 * thorwil waves back
 * _MMA_ goes to get breakfast. bbs
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-01
<BHSPitLappy> kwwii, so I went and retrieved my tablet
<thorwil> happy new year!
<thorwil> so Tom Wright took my jackalope sketch and cleaned up the background. this is way cool :)
<darkmatter> link?
<thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/AlphaBackgrounds
<darkmatter> hmmm... nice.. though I still think a jackalope is.. umm.. weird.. ;)
<thorwil> darkmatter: i wouldn't propose to use it for the final release. these are solely for pre-releases
<darkmatter> thorwil: of course, but I mean a jackalope in general is weird.. it conveys a 'we don't take our product seriously' image, but the sketch is quite lovely
<thorwil> it could also be taken as a "we are no stiff fuddy-duddies" ;)
<thorwil> well, thanks :)
<darkmatter> I finally have my aesthetic guidelines finished.. now to grind out  pixmaps and svg's... and actually get my mockups from paper to digital.. yay!
<thorwil> darkmatter: do you have those guidelines up somewhere?
<darkmatter> ummm... nope.. I'll need to type them out and upload.
<darkmatter> They're somewhat picky though, it's not so much a matter of themes as it is a matter of the overall interface so it's really not just the aesthetics, but more so form AND function
<darkmatter> also been working on some ideas regarding the workspace. one of my favorites needs a lot of ironing out as far as how to implement it, but is quite sound in concept
<darkmatter> it's a global workflow tracker, that can save state across sessions. at the application level, it functions basically as breadcrumbs (I was thinking of displaying it in a manner similar to the way global menus are done, but again.. still working on the details)
<darkmatter> but keeps track of position within the workflow timeline instead of location
<thorwil> i guess you will need more detail and examples to get the idea across ;)
<darkmatter> yup.. I have examples.. just need to do the 'flowchart for dummies' thing along with the mockups
<darkmatter> but.. for a really simple and not very impressive example of usage, consider.. umm.. say editing a file in gedit (like a .c or whatever)
<darkmatter> now, currently, you basicaly make your revisions, and go through the whole 'click undo/redo til your fingers bleed' methodology, and when you close the app, that's it, you have the current version plus a backup
<darkmatter> now, using the 'tracker' idea, each revision would add a crumb to the timeline, so you could basically jump to the desired position, and upon closing a document, the timeline would be saved (be it in a sql database or whatever), so the next time you open the file, it would open the timeline with it. that's the most basic functionality it could do, but hopefully that paints a better picture
<darkmatter> of course, then you can get into things like forking timelines, multiple document/application tracking, etc... but that's where the flowcharts come in :P
 * thorwil wants global undo/redo with scope and tagging, no explicit save anymore since long
<thorwil> but i got stuck each time i tried to work out the details
<darkmatter> thorwil: yeah.. that's basically part of why I started thinking about this.. I wan't things like remembering grouped apps (like say you're programming something, have devhelp, glad, anjuta, gedit, and whatever else open, sitting on whatever workspaces you have them assigned to, etc)
<thorwil> darkmatter: i'd treat the screen like a document, so it can be versioned like everything else
<darkmatter> I want things to resume where I left off when reopening a doc/image/whatever, and I wan't my previous revisions available in an inteligent manner, and if multiple apps are associated with eachother within a workflow, I want the association recognized/resumed when I continue the work
<thorwil> one fun thing with an edit history that allows branching is that you can treat the result as a tree, or still a linear list, if navigation in the history is recorded in itself
<thorwil> food, bbl
<darkmatter> explicit saves should only be used when something is finished.. and it's even iffy to use one then :P
<savvas> happy new year non-chinese residents of the earth :P
<savvas> and non-old-calendar users hehe
<thorwil> happy new year for you, too savvas
<thorwil> darkmatter: i'd rather have just tagging (as in associate this label with current state)
<darkmatter> hmmm... yeah.. that too
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-02
<SealV> morning all
<thorwil> good morning SealV
 * _MMA_ is bored from all the holidays. Places closed, people gone. blah
<SealV> where do you all stand on the text comment on the wiki?
<_MMA_> SealV: It really comes down to the page/project maintainer. Generally it's ok but I feel when it's excessive it should go to the ML.
<Cimi> kwwii, I've started implementing some kind of cells inside the progressbars as you like http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/175266/tmp/Schermata-7.png
<SealV> http://fc72.deviantart.com/fs38/f/2009/002/5/4/ubu_jaunty_alpha_by_Islingt0ner.png
<SealV> critique?
<_MMA_> The hair feels, odd. I think others will find it a turn-off.
<thorwil> i would prefer texture only
<SealV> thor:  should I nuke the text as well?
<thorwil> yes
<SealV> k
<thorwil> a close-up of a rabbits butt would rock ^^
<_MMA_> :P
<SealV> lol
<SealV> the rabbit fur stock is found here:  http://zuzu-stock.deviantart.com/art/rabbit-fur-ahv-56088190
<thorwil> SealV: what's the license?
<thorwil> stupid deviantart, that belongs into details
<SealV> stock generally means use and credit
<_MMA_> SealV: That might not be good enough for Ubuntu use.
<SealV> http://islingt0ner.deviantart.com/art/ubu-jaunty-alpha-n-textsketch-108166552
<SealV> even if we get permission from author?
<_MMA_> The license matters. So as long as it's an open license it fine.
<_MMA_> I usually search Flickr for CC stuff and use that.
<_MMA_> So the author just saying "Yeah. You can use it." isn't enough.
<SealV> http://help.deviantart.com/217/
<SealV> since he or she posted it in stock and his/her rules are to link and comment back...
<_MMA_> "Failure to obey all of the required Terms and Conditions or License requirements attached to the stock may result in the removal of your submission" The author of you image gave no license for *you* to link back to.
<SealV> ah I see you are saying since its copyright him we cant use it?
<darkmatter> hmmm.... not quite right yet *tweaks dropshadows*
<_MMA_> SealV: Correct.
<SealV> :(
<_MMA_> SealV: Wait. No. I think he can own it but usage needs to be open license.
<_MMA_> thorwil kwwii? ^^^
<darkmatter> bah... I'll work on this blasted theme and the mockups after I get some Zzzz's... to tired to think straight
<_MMA_> SealV: He says we can use it but no info as to how is mentioned.
<SealV> I thought he meant that we can use it but we must comment one the accounts mentioned
<_MMA_> SealV: Also from your last link: "Also be aware that the lack of obvious copyright information does not imply that the imagery is free for use."
<_MMA_> SealV: That may be, but we need a explicit license. He needs to say the exact terms of the license. He may end up having some personal issue with Ubuntu after this is used. License take that situation away.
<SealV> :(
<_MMA_> Now in the end I don't think any of this will happen but we need to learn we just cant grab and use anything off the web.
<SealV> one of the reasons why I popst here befor taking on the wiki
<_MMA_> I don't feel it would be hard to find a properly licensed image. Hell. You might even be able to go make your own texture.
<_MMA_> I started taking texture pics years ago. I'm sure there's a site for open stock art.
<SealV> I dont suppose anyone knows anybody that owns a rabbit and a camera?
<_MMA_> No rabbit here.
<darkmatter> I'm sure if ya drop yer pants, a pic of your hairy ass could be airbrushed to look like rabbit fur :P
 * _MMA_ looks like a swimmer. ;)
<SealV> :O
<_MMA_> (minus the 6-pack abs) :P
<_MMA_> Old pick with my son: http://www.flickr.com/photos/metalmusicaddict/2087574914/in/set-72157603377813769/
<SealV> awww (your son) not you :P
<_MMA_> ;)
<_MMA_> That's 3 years old. I really should take new ones.
<darkmatter> why is that malnourished chimp wearing a baseball hat and holding a child? oO oh.. wait... nm xD
<_MMA_> darkmatter: For this 170lb guy to me "malnourished" you gotta be huge. :P
<_MMA_> s/me/be
<darkmatter> : only if 6' 1" and 225lbs is 'huge' :P
 * _MMA_ is 5'9".  So no.
 * _MMA_ heads out to the museum. Maybe Ill take some pics of some fur. ;)
 * darkmatter goes for a nap
<Alex_21> Hi,
<Alex_21> How do I set a custom splash screen in Ubuntu CLI 8.04?
<Alex_21> Please?
<Alex_21> please
<_MMA_> Alex_21: You need to be patient. It's the holidays around the world. ;)
<_MMA_> I also suspect you have your terms messed up.
<Alex_21> Ok, I shall
<_MMA_> Do you mean Usplash or GNOME splash?
<Alex_21> The one you see on boot, I thin it is USplash
<_MMA_> Lemmie look to see if I have the commands to set them still.
<Alex_21> I have to write a Shell script to do this, so any help is appreciated
<_MMA_> Alex_21: Googling will get you the answer for sure.
<Alex_21> Is it USplash  then?
<_MMA_> Yes
<BHSPitLappy> Anyone particularly experienced with getting tablets to work?  I have a DigiPro tablet, and when I plug it in, I see in dmesg that a few input devices have been registered, but when I open Inkscape and choose the device, I can't get anything to happen
<_MMA_> BHSPitLappy: I doubt you'll have any luck in here. Most people I've chatted with have Wacoms. Forums and the other channels you hang in might be better.
<BHSPitLappy> Yeah
<_MMA_> Alex_21: sudo sh -c 'dpkg-reconfigure linux-image-`uname -r`' works if you have 1 Usplash installed. I'm still looking for the command to pick another if 2 are installed.
<darkmatter> _MMA_: the gtk WIP isn't shown in this shot (just using gilouche atm) and the emerald/metacity is hidden from site. but I need opinions on the drop shadowing http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/3161216840/
 * _MMA_ clicks.
<_MMA_> darkmatter: Looks fine to me. I was actually shocked to see how heavy the Vista and OSX shadows were compared to Compiz default.
<darkmatter> _MMA_: thanks for the input :) But it DOES make me wish for one thing though.. I wish compiz could intelligently recognize where submenus intersect
<darkmatter> basically hide the shadow where the menus are joined
<darkmatter> or at least minimalize it at the connecting areas.. actually minimalizing it would look better imho
<_MMA_> darkmatter: You're using the SLAB menu?
<darkmatter> yup
<_MMA_> How do you like it? I haven't been able to get used to it personally. I'm kinda a minimal guy and normal GNOME menu fits that. But I still look for cool stuff.
<darkmatter> I like it. it works rather well. like any menu system it's not perfect, but having everything in one location so I don't need to cascade through endless submenus is more to my liking
<darkmatter> and the slabs application browser makes a nice menu replacement when you're not using a panel as such (like just a dock, or in an environment like openbox etc)
<_MMA_> Hmm... I never thought 2 menus (for the most part) were all that bad.
<_MMA_> I see that.
<darkmatter> _MMA_: two menus aren't that bad, the problem arises when the list of applications gets to long, or when you have additional levels to the hierarchy (like that god awful debian menu)
<darkmatter> _MMA_: it's the same for the system menu, which is why I always edit the ubuntu default to use the CC instead of the admin and pref menus.. it just feel cleaner
<_MMA_> darkmatter: Yeah. We (Ubuntu Studio) added submenus to Sound&Video to get around the length issue. The Debian menu is just crazy.
<darkmatter> indeed
<_MMA_> I like the CC as well but it's code isn't friendly to dark themes.
<darkmatter> yeah.. that is its one drawback
<_MMA_> darkmatter: What sux, is at some point the Compiz guys adopted the same code and broke things there as well. Patches have been submitted to SUSE and Compiz but no word in a year. :(
<darkmatter> _MMA_: the new version of narcissus (got it all sorted out now) will be sexy. basically it will be to clearlooks what http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2084/1882699828_39db4591bf.jpg?v=0 was to win classic, but without the aero and overdone gloss :P
<darkmatter> and monochromatic-ish
 * _MMA_ clicks
<darkmatter> you know.. like a mac but not appleish :P
<_MMA_> ;)
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-03
<manzur> hello
<manzur> my name is abraham
<manzur> happy new year
<manzur> is some body in there
<manzur> ?
<manzur> in here
<manzur> ?
<manzur> i just woul like to know if you are going to use this icons as the default icons for ubuntu
<manzur> Â¿?
<manzur> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Intrepid_Ibex_Icons_-_Art_Team?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=pn_preview.png
<manzur> Â¿?
<manzur> ubuntulog: are u there
<manzur> ?
<_MMA_> manzur: Please do not spam the channel with lots of "Â¿?Â¿?Â¿?Â¿?Â¿?" If someone is around, and can answer your question, they will. Just be patient.
<manzur> _MMA_: how are u?
<manzur> _MMA_: u are the one that is working on ubuntu art, don't you?
<_MMA_> SOmewhat.
<manzur> do u know what is going to be the new icon set for ubuntu?
<_MMA_> But mostly Ubuntu Studio and projects *around* Ubuntu.
<_MMA_> There is nothing officially planed.
<manzur> you mean u are not thinking about it right now?
<manzur> you mean there is not going to be a new icon set for ubuntu 9.04Â¿?
<_MMA_> The latter.
<manzur> what do you mean? 9.10Â¿?
<_MMA_> There ate no *official* Ubuntu plans for a new icon set at all right now.
<_MMA_> s/ate/are
<manzur> so we are going to get the same icon set for ubuntu 9.04 final release
<manzur> Â¿?
<_MMA_> There's no need for separate message for your punctuation. Please stop.
<_MMA_> Same set for 9.04
<manzur> ok
<manzur> and for ubuntustudioÂ¿?
<_MMA_> No new set there either.
<manzur> ok thanks, that was all i wanted to know
<_MMA_> Plan is to derive from the Breathe set when ready.
<manzur> _MMA_: so you mean that maybe breathe icon set is going to replace ubuntu icon setÂ¿?
<_MMA_> manzur: It is a community effort that hopes to provide a new default set for Ubuntu. But is no way official at this time.
<manzur> ok
<manzur> _MMA_: i love this icons set, just make the know: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Intrepid_Ibex_Icons_-_Art_Team?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=pn_preview.png
<dilomo> happy new year to all :)
<thorwil> heh, happy new year dilomo
<dilomo> thorwil: enjoied the holidays?
<thorwil> dilomo: a bit, until i got hit with a cold
<thorwil> dilomo: very exciting times, one moment i'm feeling hot, the next cold. have to practice breathing through one nostril only :)
<thorwil> dilomo: i hope you have better luck?
<dilomo> thorwil: sorry
<dilomo> thorwil: a bit
<dilomo> I was with my relatives most of tha time
<dilomo> compared to having more fun with friend the last years
<thorwil> oh yeah, relatives ... worse than friends but often still nice to have ;)
<dilomo> :D
<dilomo> btw do you think that decreasing the contrast of some controls will be good?
<dilomo> thorwil: I mean new wave
<thorwil> can't answer without seeing it
<dilomo> sec
<dilomo> piccdrop.com is not responding
<thorwil> try xs.to  you just have to click around a bit to get a link to just the picture there
<dilomo> still not working
<dilomo> I'll use imagevenue
<dilomo> thorwil: finally
<dilomo> http://img160.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=05245_Screenshot-The_Widget_Factory_122_1144lo.jpg
<dilomo> see the textbox
<thorwil> yes
<dilomo> cool :)
<dilomo> I'll start working in that direction
<thorwil> heh, i only said yes as in i do see it ;p
<dilomo> so ..
<thorwil> so the old contrast can be seen on the combobox above it?
<dilomo> correct
<thorwil> new is fine
<dilomo> thorwil: probably I should decreace it but with less
<thorwil> dilomo: say, you didn't have talks with Troy about clunk vs subtlety and elegance? :)
<dilomo> no but I had a talk wit Cimi
<dilomo> he criticised me a lot :)
<thorwil> i imagine he was very diplomatic about it ;>
<dilomo> :D almost
<dilomo> btw what do you think of this mockup:
<dilomo>  http://msart2k.deviantart.com/art/preview21082008-95536060
<thorwil> looks foggy
<dilomo> but is interesting too see th idea behind
<dilomo> everyting as one piece, not titlebar no steppers
<thorwil> any every not-that-technical user will be lost
<dilomo> thorwil: hmm I guess you are right
<dilomo> thorwil: do you know a cool font for numbers
<dilomo> I have to make chapter frontpages
<dilomo> for one of my reports but don't know what to use
<thorwil> dilomo: no, i would have to blindly go through my fonts, too
<dilomo> thorwil: here's preview
 * thorwil -> dinner
<dilomo> http://img43.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=07471_test_122_1131lo.jpg
<dilomo> Cimi: hey
<dilomo> Cimi: happy new year
<dilomo> Cimi: what do you think? (see the new textbox)
<dilomo>  http://msart2k.deviantart.com/art/preview21082008-95536060
<dilomo> oops :  http://img160.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=05245_Screenshot-The_Widget_Factory_122_1144lo.jpg
<Cimi> dilomo, first of all it's not bad :) few things:
<Cimi> 1) GtkFrame
<Cimi> 2) GtkNotebook
<Cimi> and generally the theme feels too sharp
<thorwil> dilomo: it's fine
<dilomo> Cimi: did you see the textbox
<dilomo> I have increased the brighness abit
<dilomo> Cimi: about the tabs i listened to you
<Cimi> but few are messed up
<Cimi> just the normal tab is correct
<Cimi> I mean
<dilomo> yeah I know that the bottom tabs could nto be done
<Cimi> the one with the tabs on the left/right
<dilomo> perfectly
<dilomo> and I haven't changed the side tabs
<Cimi> oh ok
<dilomo> because they are not used much in GNOME
<Cimi> pidgin for example
<dilomo> what about pidgin
<Cimi> it can have vertical notebooks
<dilomo> hmm it is possible
<dilomo> I have to go
<dilomo> bye
<Cimi> kwwii, ping
<kwwii> oops, too late
<_MMA_> Hi Ken.
<kwwii> _MMA_: hey Cory
 * kwwii just made coconut cream pie
 * _MMA_ wants one.
<kwwii> by the time it got to you in the mail you might not want it anymore
<_MMA_> :(
<_MMA_> kwwii: You know any links off-hand about the font hinting issue in GNOME/KDE? I guess its the FreeType stuff?
<kwwii> tomorrow is the last day off :-(
<kwwii> _MMA_: nothing off the top of my head
<_MMA_> I know Apple has obvious patents.
<kwwii> it should not be hard to find though
<_MMA_> Debian warns you when you enable full hinting.
<kwwii> right
<_MMA_> Im just trying to find out why its kinda over looked for now.
<kwwii> iirc things changed recently which make it more open
<kwwii> can't remember the details though
<kwwii> good thing is, tuesday is a holiday here :-)
<kwwii> so monday can't be that bad
<_MMA_> Best I can find is this: http://freetype.sourceforge.net/patents.html Kinda seems like Apple just is over-looking it because it kinda benifits them in some way.
<_MMA_> Sounds like fun. But, *If* I were working, I'd be tired of this time off. :P
<kwwii> hehe, I am an old man
<_MMA_> pfftt...
<_MMA_> kwwii: Troy is working on some neat wallpaper ideas for Jaunty. Hopefully he will submit them.
<kwwii> _MMA_: wow, that would be killer
<_MMA_> Doin' some watercolor stuff then takin pics of it.
<kwwii> sounds like fun
<dashua> kwwii: http://www.ubuntu-art.org/content/show.php/Human-Murrine?content=96337
<_MMA_> dashua: You tinkering with Brethe there? :)
 * _MMA_ needs to make some updates.
<dashua> Of course.  It's awesome.
<_MMA_> I got some more filetypes to add. And the folder is broken @ 32px and below.
<dashua> Ah nice.  I kind of combined the missing files with Human otherwise the default gnome-icon-theme picked them up.
<_MMA_> It should be set to inherit Human already.
<_MMA_> Once I create the .deb Ill set it as a depend.
<_MMA_> I think the index.theme needs a little love as well.
<dashua> Nice.  I've been using it for a while.  It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
<dashua> Awesome.
<dashua> Much better than the Human set.
<dashua> Works very well with Dust and Human.  Although, I'm in Dust 95 % of the time.
 * dashua prefers darker themes
<_MMA_> Thanx. Sebastian has been a strong influence. I'm mostly handling the technical side of things. Some design guidelines.
<_MMA_> Yeah. Looks nice with Dust.
<dashua> The folder and trash icons alone are what attracted me to the set.
<dashua> I don't think I've seen a better trash icon actually.
<_MMA_> There's still alot of work to do. We'll get there. I think we'll have a Jaunty package. Defiantly +1.
<dashua> I can't wait.  Until then, I'll steal and test from bazaar ;)
<_MMA_> Cool! :) Glad to know *someone* is looking.
<dashua> Definitely.
<_MMA_> dashua: I still gotta edit the script to output the preview images as well. The holidays have slowed things to a crawl. Ill get to it next week or so.
<dashua> Cool.  Is Breathe going to be included as an alternate icon set in Jaunty?
<_MMA_> That will come down to space. I'm fairly confidant it could be an alt. Space-permitting.
<dashua> It would be great to replace some of those otherwise defunct sets that are included.
 * _MMA_ fingers crossed.
<dashua> I guess it will fall into the same category as getting the older themes out as well.
 * dashua too
<_MMA_> I won't push for that 'till +1.
<kwwii> dashua: wow, nifty
<kwwii> sorry, been watching a movie
<kwwii> dashua: I am guessing there will be more info as to the planned gtk theme for jaunty and beyond soon
<kwwii> I imagine that using your stuff to make murrine more human might be interesting
<kwwii> I haven't looked into the details yet though
<dashua> Awesome.  I can live with Dust and Human until then.
<dashua> Cimi is doing some awesome work lately with the engine.
<kwwii> dashua: it seems you are interested, I'll be in touch sometime soon, hopefully, and we can discuss certain plans
<kwwii> dashua: at this point in time we are still restructuring the team so I am not sure exactly how things will proceed after the holidays
<dashua> kwwii: Awesome.  I'd be more than happy to help out.
<kwwii> but I should know pretty quickly, within a week or so I guess
<kwwii> dashua: do I have your email address?
<kwwii> I think you have posted to the list before, so I should be able to find it
<kwwii> hrm, no
<dashua> I have.  I'm also in Launchpad under the same name.
<kwwii> cool, I can find it there then
<kwwii> I promise i will be int ouch
<kwwii> in touch
<dashua> https://launchpad.net/~jws141-yahoo
#ubuntu-artwork 2009-01-04
<dashua> Great.
<kwwii> Cimi: pong
<kwwii> but not for long
<Cimi> http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/175266/screenshot5.png and http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/175266/screenshot6.png
<kwwii> Cimi: yeah, dashua showed me a screen a few minutes ago....nice!
<kwwii> Cimi: that is in the latest svn snapshot?
<Cimi> yes
<tok1> Hallo
<tok1> I liked your theme of icons for Ubuntu https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet as it is possible to support this that it have included in new release: and where it is possible to download the Beta the version?
 * _MMA_ waves.
<_MMA_> tok1: It is a community effort for now and is not official. There is no official release yet but hopefully will be one soon.
<tok1> )
<_MMA_> If you install bzr from Synaptic, this command will get the code: bzr branch lp:breathe-icon-set
<_MMA_> Then run the python script and it will build the set.
<tok1> ÐÐµ ÑÐ´Ð°Ð»Ð¾ÑÑ Ð½Ð°Ð¹ÑÐ¸ Ð¿Ð°ÐºÐµÑÑ, ÑÐ¾Ð´ÐµÑÐ¶Ð°ÑÐ¸Ñ Â«breathe-icon-setÂ» Ð² ÑÐ²Ð¾ÑÐ¼ Ð¸Ð¼ÐµÐ½Ð¸ Ð¸Ð»Ð¸ Ð¾Ð¿Ð¸ÑÐ°Ð½Ð¸Ð¸
<tok1> Transfer was not possible to find the packages, containing Â«breathe-icon-setÂ» in the name or the description
<_MMA_> bzr branch lp:breathe-icon-set
<_MMA_> That what you used? ^^^
<tok1> aptitude
<_MMA_> no
<tok1> ?
<_MMA_> sudo apt-get bzr
<_MMA_> then:
<_MMA_> bzr branch lp:breathe-icon-set
<tok1> I not strongly will understand that from me it is required to make?
<tok1> Stop
<tok1> I have understood
<tok1> root@laptop:/home/tok# bzr branch lp:breathe-icon-set
<tok1> You have not informed bzr of your launchpad login. If you are attempting a
<tok1> write operation and it fails, run "bzr launchpad-login YOUR_ID" and try again.
<tok1> Branched 28 revision(s). What further?
<_MMA_> That should be it.
<_MMA_> Wait.
<_MMA_> There is now a folder called "trunk" in your home folder.
<_MMA_> Inside is a python script. You need inkscape installed, then run the script.
<tok1> Senks
<soc> hi
<soc> hi
<soc> does someone know which font will be the standard ui font in jaunty?
<kwwii> same as now I imagine
<kwwii> unless something radical changes
<kwwii> why do you ask?
<soc> i just wondered if there are thoughts about it ...
<soc> because together with that big font size things look a bit bulky after a fresh installation ...
<thorwil> yeah, should really use a different font, one that is smaller!!
<soc> i proposed droid sans quite some time ago, together with slight hinting ...
<soc> droid seems to have a good range of characters, even of asian ones available ...
<thorwil> http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/07/why-droid-isnt-answer.html
<soc> ahh interesting :-)
<soc> but that comparison between cosmetica and droid isn't really meant seriously, is it?
<thorwil> why?
<soc> because a) comsetica is much smaller and has a bigger line-width?
<soc> do the same with droid and you might get nearyl the same results :-P
<thorwil> soc: obviously the kerning is crap and the characters lack in finesse. what's so great about droid again?
<soc> b) comparing a serif font against a sans-serif font and then deciding it is easier to read the serif one isn't quite that surprising ...
<soc> droid, obviously, works
<soc> the webpage you posted is quite interesting, but the arguments are just way off
<soc> no one really applies to the use case
<soc> for instance the screenshots with - let's count it - 13! lines of text ... please show me an UI element with _paragraphs_ of text
<lucazade> is droid gpl or free?
<soc> droid is apache
<lucazade> google released it?
<soc> 95% of the ui consists of single words, sometimes one-liners
<soc> http://review.source.android.com/5401
<lucazade> ok
<lucazade> i don't think droid is better than dejavu sans, both ugly
<thorwil> soc: he doesn't compare sans with serif
<kwwii> droid is interesting but mainly only for very small screens
<kwwii> I haven't looked into how many character sets it includes
<kwwii> but that requirement alone is pretty hard to get around
<soc> mhh, i don't want to argue with you, but what would you call the paragraph titled "The Problem with Droid" then?
<soc> kwwii: i'm testing droid here on a 24" tft with 93 dpi, so quite the opposite scenario you mentioned ...
<lucazade> we need a better font rendering engine more than new font imho
<soc> lucazade: that's true
<lucazade> following priorities i vote for engine
<lucazade> :)
<soc> a new rendering engine might be a bit harder to get :-P
<soc> although i have no problem with freetype
<soc> the rendering of my fonts impresses both people from the windows _and_ the macos camp ...
<soc> so i can live with that ,,,
<lucazade> i'm not impressed with :S
<soc> maybe you could improve some settings ...
<lucazade> yes but still dirty and not consistent results
<soc> which font, which rendering?
<lucazade> sans 8, slight
<soc> ok, i wouldn't use sans :-P
<lucazade> tried everything
<soc> slight is probably the best we can get with freetype at the moment ...
<lucazade> i agree
<soc> one thing i love when i show my desktop to mac users:
<soc> before they see it, i switch the font hinting to off
<soc> reaction "uuuhh that just looks like on my macbook"
<soc> then i turn on slight hinting ...
<soc> "well, can i do that on my apple too?"
<lucazade> funny
<soc> my equation is:
<soc> slight hinting = apple rendering - fuzzy crap around the glyphs
<lucazade> we should say thanks to david turner for his patches to font rendering if now ubuntu has got a decent font setting
<soc> yes, these patches had quite some effect ...
<soc> http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4492/fontcomparisonzu7.png
<soc> ahh here, i found it ...
<soc> lucazade: maybe you find a font in that screenshot that you linke more
<lucazade> mm
<lucazade> i can say that droid seems nicer than i remember
<soc> the current version is here: http://android.git.kernel.org/?p=platform/frameworks/base.git;a=snapshot;h=6b8721393400f8e98bb6c29d47b38c79be7ade32;sf=tgz
<lucazade> trying it now
<lucazade> 8px slight 96dpi is too condensed
<lucazade> at 100dpi is not so baf
<lucazade> *bad
<soc> i wouldn't change the dpi
<soc> as a rule of thumb: never change the dpi
<lucazade> yes just trying
<soc> the dpi has something to do with your physicalk size of your display
<soc> that thing just won't change within seconds
<soc> also, configuring the wrong dpi messes things up with the font rendering
<lucazade> ok
<lucazade> 8,5px and 96 dpi is something readble here
<soc> you can find out your real dpi with
<soc>  xdpyinfo | grep resolution
<lucazade>   resolution:    95x96 dots per inch
<soc> i would suggest setting that dpi in gnome-appearance-properties and don't changing it
<lucazade> ;)
<soc> you should use the first one, 95
<soc> because the second one is the height
<lucazade> ok i didn't know
<soc> and because normally the subpixels are laid out horicontically, the height doesn't matter
<soc> because you have no subpixels there :-)
<lucazade> thanks for the explanation
<soc> np
<soc> do you now by chance what the default font size in ubuntu is?
<soc> on a fresh installation?
<lucazade> at least 9
<soc> mhh, setting the right dpi in gnome-appearance-propteries after start would be a good start ...
<lucazade> yes surely
<soc> lol ... approx. 5 bugs abput wrong dpi in gnome in launchpad and at least as many brainstorm things as well ...
<lucazade> :)
<soc> http://www.gnome.org/~federico/news-2007-01.html#font-sizes
<_MMA_> kwwii: *PLEASE* for the love of... *something* unsub the artwork team from that damn titlebar bug. It's an nVidia issue in the end.
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-04
<Equiet> Is booting animation for Lucid already done?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-05
<thorwil> http://www.fubiz.net/2010/01/03/vancouver-2010-campaign/
<Equiet> Wow, http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/ is fantastic.
<Equiet> I should make my own blog with Ubuntu Artwork concepts.
<thorwil> Equiet: i used to present my stuff using image hosters, but then switched to a blog. it's much better. you can images and text right in one place, you get a timeline of your own work, it can double as a kind of portfolio
<zniavre_> the "extra-pane" of nautilus is quite good in fact > http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/8047/capturexdy.png
<zniavre_> i do not know why im using more than tabs feature
<\vish> http://boagworld.com/design/stock-photography
<\vish> the last gout pic/idea is awesome!
<thorwil> \vish: heh, "avoid being literal" ... sounds familiar somehow :)
<thorwil> \vish: your nick is german-keyboard unfriendly. where do i file an accessibility issue?
<\vish> lol...!
<\vish> thorwil: isnt german layout QWERTY?
<thorwil> \vish: no, QWERTZ
<\vish> heh
<thorwil> \vish: \ requires the meta key to the right of space (Alt-Gr) and the key following 8, 9, 0 (trippling for ?, Ã, \)
<\vish> thorwil: why i liked that pic more was , since the designer had a reasonable understanding of the disease and stressed more on the toes color
<\vish> oh... why I used "\"  was since its was easier in my laptop layout ;p
<thorwil> \vish: that page has examples full of what i'm missing in floss related artwork
<\vish> hehe ;)
<dksays> hi
<\vish> !hi | dksays
<ubottu> dksays: Hi! Welcome to #ubuntu-artwork! Channel for the community artwork team. Feel free to ask questions . Enjoy your stay
<vish> thorwil: better? ;)
<thorwil> yes!
<vish> hmm , seems toooo simple :s
<`vish> does this need meta key too?
<`vish> thorwil: ^
<thorwil> yes
<`vish> aw :(
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-06
<thorwil> kwwii: strange, if i do a search for "ubuntu artwork", the description for Ubuntu Artwork reads: "Creating an amazing set of new wallpapers for the next Ubuntu release, the Karmic Koala - Ubuntu 9.10"
<thorwil> http://www.flickr.com/search/groups/?q=ubuntu+artwork
<thorwil> the blurb on http://www.flickr.com/groups/ubuntu-artwork/ is up-to-date and obviously independent
<kwwii> thorwil: hrm, where is that?
<kwwii> hrm
<kwwii> I guess it is a left over from when I made the group
<thorwil> i would guess so, too
<thorwil> but does it remain editable?
<kwwii> I fixed it
<thorwil> good!
<kwwii> thanks for pointing that out
<thorwil> np. if only once could use variables in such places :)
<kwwii> :)
<thorwil> ?? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Jaunty/New%20Firefox%20Icon%20For%20Edubuntu?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=firefox.png
<zniavre> ^^
<darkmatter> vish: I need a bigger panel http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3408/screenshotni.png ;p
<vish> darkmatter: its sunny and -25c ? ooooh!
<darkmatter> I meant the clock you n00b :P
<vish> darkmatter: yeah , i got that.. but I also noticed the weather  :)
<darkmatter> that format looks so nice too. but is kinda a hassle under 1600 :/
<vish> darkmatter: why are you copying win7's "show desktop" ;p
<darkmatter> vish: I'm not. I just blanked the icon because a folder looks retarded :P
<vish> darkmatter: yeah , that applet needs to use the emblem-desktop icon
<darkmatter> win 7 technically copied suse. they had the right pinned show desktop first
<darkmatter> ;o
<vish> ;p
 * vish should stop switching between gnome3 and gnome2 :/  takes a bit of time adjusting back to either :/
<darkmatter> yeah. single line with a smallish green am/pm for now
<darkmatter> gnome3 can kneel and kiss me where the sun don't shine :P
<darkmatter> -36.3C windchill \o/
<darkmatter> I think I'll stay indoors this week
<Equiet> Nice desktop, darkmatter.
<darkmatter> Equiet: ty. would be nicer if I had a wider display. chubby clocks being what they are
<vish> darkmatter: i never really liked two line displays ;) ... IMO it seems a waste of space if the panel uses more than essential
<vish> uses more height*
<darkmatter> after I catch some beauty rest it's time to get my butt moving on skinning the panel
<darkmatter> vish: I'm not using more height than essential though. It's a one line clock forced to two lines with the %n option :P
<vish> darkmatter: if it isnt more than 25px cool ;)
<darkmatter> its 32, so humbug on you. I like 'clickable' areas ;p
<vish> bleh
<vish> darkmatter: use a dock instead! ;)
<darkmatter> vish: yeah. like I actually want 46+ pixels of randomly resized wasted space :P
<vish> darkmatter: huh? my cairo-dock uses 24px only...
<darkmatter> vish: yeah, but the smaller you set them the more they zoom, giggle, and generally look like crap.
<darkmatter> besides, I dun have a boat, so I dun need a dock :P
 * vish reminds darkmatter, he could just turn off zoom for the icons ;)
<darkmatter> vish: docks can kiss my butt!
 * vish wonders if darkmatter ever gets kissed in his ass ;p
<vish> or maybe gets kissed too much ;)
<darkmatter> :P
<thorwil> troy_s: a bit late, but: happy new year! i've send a link to your most recent blog post to the art list
<troy_s> thorwil: Greets friend.
<troy_s> thorwil: How are things?
<thorwil> troy_s: slowly trying to get back to a routine after being incredible lazy during the turn of the year :)
<troy_s> thorwil: I hear you.
<thorwil> dinner time, bbl
<zniavre> wich xsplash file to modify the position of the throbber please ?
<zniavre> is it centered by default no ?
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-07
<wolter> hi all, I would like to ask how many of you are aware of the ubuntu manual project?
<wolter> See, I would like some advice, or assistance, in the manual's cover page
<wolter> http://imagebin.ca/view/pUotJG.html
<wolter> there you have a link to a png render of it.. I am working with inkscape for the raw versions
<vish> wolter: hi... do you have the .svg? First i would drop the "Ubuntu Linux for human beings" from page... swap the lucid lynx and the beginner's manual positions
<vish> Rather than "This is the official..." it can be "The official..."
<vish> but several would argue over it being really the *official* or not... so i would hold back on that :)
<wolter> vish, oh, let me link you to the latest version
<wolter> i have changed a lot since
<wolter> vish, http://imagebin.ca/view/xraHGm.html
<wolter> i could implement your suggestions to see what comes out, but first I would like to see what you have to say about this new revision
<thorwil> http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/
<vish> thorwil: what font is used in the words "Ubuntu" in the logo?
<thorwil> vish: if you mean the one true official Ubuntu logo, that is not a font
<vish> ah.. ok
<kwwii> hey kids
<kwwii> I am officialy back working as of today
<thorwil> vish: now and then i had to point that out on the list. surprised you didn't know. it's rather nasty, since people like to add text for ubuntu-something logotypes
<vish> thorwil: ... i think i recall you saying that... but i forget sometimes :)
<thorwil> vish: so if they do that, you not only get ugly type since letters outside of u b n t are often not that great, it all actually doesn't match with the original
<thorwil> this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFreeCultureShowcase?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=UbuntuFreeCultureShowcaseLogo_white_100.png
<thorwil> felt like a kick to the stomach to me
<vish> thorwil: yeah... i was searching for words which would match that style from the logo.. but there arent any ;)
<thorwil> kwwii: hi, cool. i'd like a statement from you in the business cards thread
<vish> kwwii: o/
<vish> kwwii: well its about time you got back  ;p
<kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I will answer that
<kwwii> vish: lol
<thorwil> kwwii: i wrote that there should be only one template. but it would make some sense to have 2, one and two-sided designs
<kwwii> thorwil: ahhh, good point
<darkmatter> hmmm.... guess that'll do for the clock... for now
 * darkmatter contemplates wasting time hacking in an alternative analog display
<kwwii> ge-answered
<darkmatter> http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8469/screenshotlp.png
 * vish notes kwwii still hasnt snapped out of vacation...  "ge"-answered  ... seemed more like "geeez! answered" ;)
<kwwii> lol,, that was my crappy attempt at a german-english joke
<kwwii> put a ge in front of a verb and it becomes past tense (well, that is a bit of an over-simplification but you get the point)
<kwwii> darkmatter: nice colors in the wallpaper
<darkmatter> kwwii: I know. just found that one yesterday. an since I have a thing for flora, bokeh, macros, and deep colors...
<darkmatter> kwwii: we *really* need an analog clock option.
<kwwii> darkmatter: yeah, no doubt
 * kwwii has to run to the store, bbiab
<kwwii> w00t, the deviantart group now works properly
<Equiet_> Do you have some webdesign skills?
<thorwil> Equiet_: i do have some, although seldom applied. a number of technical issues have the tendency to drive all the fun out of it
<troy_s> thorwil: Sup Thor?
<thorwil> troy_s: i'm on the edge of trying out google's app engine
<troy_s> thorwil: Erm... what is that?
<thorwil> troy_s: google has a service in beta where you can create up to 10 "apps" per google account
<troy_s> thorwil: Anything been happening around these parts?
<troy_s> thorwil: Hrm... for Android or ???
<thorwil> troy_s: no, websites running on their "cloud" infrastructure
<troy_s> thorwil: Interesting.
<thorwil> which simply means there's no per-cpu or thats-your-block-of-memeory
<thorwil> troy_s: you can use java or python there. i hate php and like python, so this is a nice way to get free within-limits hosting sans php
<thorwil> troy_s: not much happening in ubuntu artwork land
<troy_s> thorwil: Wow... That's pretty nifty.
<troy_s> thorwil: Well that's too bad.
<troy_s> thorwil: A bit of a drag that ckontros is having to cash out.
<thorwil> troy_s: look on the bright side. nobody made a bright orange background with huge CoC and posted it on the list ^^
<troy_s> thorwil: Plenty of time. It is sort of an evolutionary period.
<thorwil> troy_s: not uncommon that the best are taken from us, so to say :}
<troy_s> thorwil: I can appreciate ckontros's position. It is just a shame that no one sucked him up to drive a project.
<troy_s> thorwil: Getting people that are passionate about Free Software is a rare thing - especially when it comes to someone with a proven track record of driving.
<troy_s> thorwil: It's a trudge and painful at times, so you had better have a good deal of passion about it.
<thorwil> well, i would drop all free software related stuff for a gig again, but i have no idea how that would feel after more than 2 or 3 weeks
<thorwil> family > money > free software involvement
<thorwil> troy_s: so what's cooking in your kitchen?
<troy_s> thorwil: Well they aren't mutually exclusive ;)
<troy_s> thorwil: I am thankfully unemployed at the moment, but alas, that is going to shift next week for a week or two.
<thorwil> sure, i want it all and i want it now!
<troy_s> thorwil: Have you got any employment opportunities at all at the moment?
<thorwil> troy_s: no, none. the guys in australia who managed to pay me after a long delay and initially said there could be follow-ups hired an in-house designer
<Equiet_> I am doing my personal website and am not satisfied at all with it. Could you please tell what's wrong with it (probably the background needs som gradient or more texture).
<thorwil> i guess i should create a serious website and get on behance and/or a few others
<Equiet_> Any other feedback would be appreciated.
<Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/equiet_blue.png
<thorwil> Equiet_: your logo-type looks a bit shaky
<troy_s> Equiet_: Very elegant Equiet_ - what type of site is it?
<troy_s> thorwil: I think it is actually pretty tight.
<thorwil> Equiet_: where u and i join ... the width/stroke doesn't seem right to me
<Equiet_> troy_s: It should be my portfolio.
<troy_s> thorwil: Ok... agree with you on that. It's an upstroke, and should thin.
<thorwil> Equiet_: e and t are very nice, though
<troy_s> Equiet_: The kerning on the eq might use a bump of tightening? Less so on the ei, but even a nudge.
<Equiet_> W8, I have to translate this.
<troy_s> Equiet_: It is tricky to an English speaker as my visceral response is to spot the 'quiet' in the equiet - which magnifies the kerning gap.
<thorwil> Equiet_: the first impression on that shot: serious and rather elegant. you will have to be very careful with color
<troy_s> Equiet_: It has a lot going for it. It has a tight grid at the foundation, it has a solid degree of craftsmanship and attention to details and subtle elements. Don't know if it 'screams' design portfolio though.
<troy_s> Equiet_: If you are targeting design firms, there is a good chance that the HR person is a creative type and likely might want to see a good example of creativity. Hard to say though... fish around and drop it by a few firms.
<Equiet_> Well, this is my style I work, just a simple elements with feel of detail.
<Equiet_> And at all, you probably don't understand slovak, but I do only conding for now.
<troy_s> Equiet_: Yes... my Slovak is non existent ;)
<thorwil> Equiet_: i'd look for an alternative for the grey on the "Company with new stylish ..."
<Equiet_> I also have white background... http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/equiet_white.png
<Equiet_> But I prefer the blue one.
<troy_s> Equiet_: White works better for my Westernized brain. It feels less like a pharmaceuticals company from over here.
<thorwil> troy_s: no slovak, but your english increases my grab-the-dictionary frequency like few other's ;)
<troy_s> Equiet_: But really it is just a matter of subjective taste. I _would_ consider looking at the kerning on that 'eq' pair.
<Equiet_> Ok, I will work on it.
<Equiet_> I also have another design for a photoblog (not mine, just a free template)... http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/photoblog_white.png
<Equiet_> And http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/photoblog_black.png .
<Equiet_> I am doing it to get to web conference. :)
<thorwil> Equiet_: could you expand on that? you do what to get to what conference?
<Equiet_> http://juniorinternet.sk/
<Equiet_> It's a bit contest, but that doesn't matter at all. You can get Adobe Flex Builder for 1st place.
<Equiet_> I have to send at least 3 (web)designs.
<thorwil> Equiet_: secondary headlines on the dark one are too dark. those will be hard to read in strong daylight / on a bad display
<troy_s> thorwil: Do you really care about someone interested in photography viewing in broad daylight on a crap display?
<troy_s> thorwil: That's one of the 'audience members that I could care less about'
<thorwil> troy_s: not everyone is willing to shut the sun out of the room for display contrast
<troy_s> thorwil: As I said - _if_ you are interested in photography, chances are that you won't have an issue with that text.
<thorwil> Equiet_: did you consider to have the "Download  View on black ..." outside of the picture?
<troy_s> thorwil: And to the rest - bugger them.
<Equiet_> thorwil: Yes, I did.
<Equiet_> But it makes another block and distracts from the photo.
<thorwil> Equiet_: your example makes this very easy. what if you have a photo with lots of different shades down there?
<troy_s> thorwil: Tango! Outline, then outline, then outline again!
<Equiet_> thorwil: Good point, I add more opacity to that panel.
<thorwil> Equiet_: thought about image analysis? selecting colors for the page based on the image?
<Equiet_> thorwil: Well, I didn't... But it doesn't even make sense. :)
<thorwil> Equiet_: tell that to the people who do exactly that
<thorwil> Equiet_: maybe not wise to do it for the entire page, but could do wonders for a single block
<Equiet_> thorwil: This reminded me, that some TV manufacturer (maybe Sony) uses colors of image and lights on the wall behind TV.
<thorwil> yes, i vaguely recall reading about that
<Equiet_> And could you please send some link to this technique?
<Equiet_> http://stelmaria.equiet.operaunite.com/file_sharing/content/photoblog_background.png
<thorwil> Equiet_: i know that i came across a photo blog template with that feature, but all i can find now is http://www.cssdrive.com/imagepalette/
<Equiet_> Actually, these are only examples of my work you have seen, right?
<Equiet_> s/only/single
<thorwil> Equiet_: this and your software center mockups
<Equiet_> I have some graphics on my Flickr account. http://www.flickr.com/photos/equiet/
<thorwil> Equiet_: wonderful: http://www.flickr.com/photos/equiet/3736045822/
<thorwil> Equiet_: i would really like this one, if it wasn't for the main text color that is no good match for the background (or the other way around). To my eyes, that is. http://www.flickr.com/photos/equiet/3977147420/
<Equiet_> Thank you for all feedback.
 * Equiet_ afk.
<mrmcq2u> anyone any idea when the rgba and client side window stuff will start landing in the main lucid repos?
<vish> mrmcq2u: i think it just landed
<mrmcq2u> the rgba or the client side windows or both?
<vish> let me grab the bug
<vish> mrmcq2u: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/491521
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 491521 in gtk+2.0 "Decorations and RGBA" [High,In progress]
<coz_> hey guys... if anyone is interested, I found a site where a fellow created several simple but fairly interesting  xsplash animations....you need to go to google translate      espiralx.org     spanish to english...then click on "share"   then on "gnome"  and there is a list of items the fellow has apparenlty created for gnome including  xsplash
<vish> coz_: you are gonna make us beg aernt you ? ;p
<vish> coz_: well.... link pls
<coz_> vish,  what do you mean ?
<coz_> :)
<coz_> vish,  oh !
<vish> oh! espiralx.org   was the link :/
<coz_> vish,  well first open google translate    spanish to enlgish  and type in    esprialx.org
<coz_> :)
<thorwil> http://espiralx.org/04-EspacioI/05-Jaunty-counter.html ??
<coz_> thorwil,  didnt see that
<coz_> click on "Compartir"
<thorwil> "Credits: Canonical". pah!
<vish> comments anyone > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/ManualTitle.png
 * thorwil stumbles over the 20 meter long beard of the page corner effect
<vish> thorwil: ;) ?
<londonali1010> Hullo, I probably should introduce myself, considering I've been lurking for awhile here and on the mailing list :P
<londonali1010> vish, First thing that sticks out is that paper doesn't "bend" like that when it's peeled forward; it goes in a straight line.
<Equiet_> vish: More whitespace around Ubuntu logo (-> make that thing around it higher).
<thorwil> vish: top right corner. many many years ago, the arrival of photoshop plugins to do that marked the point where it was overused, cliche, old hat already. it's not even well executed
<coz_> vish,  I like the simplicity of the design
<thorwil> londonali1010: well, hi! :)
<vish> londonali1010: ... its about time was wondering if you were a bot :)
<coz_> vish,  it is easily read...no clutter... the eye goes where it should
<vish> Equiet_: the top-right logo?
<Equiet_> vish: Top-left logo.
<thorwil> vish: "ubuntu" 4 times on that page ... i'd try to avoid that
<londonali1010> thorwil, Hi :) No, not a bot, just shy :) I do a lot of work on Conky and dabble in GTK themes, mostly I'm a GUI theory enthusiast.
<vish> ah , oops
<thorwil> vish: Equiet_ is right, not enough padding for the colored CoC. also the grey there bites with the 3 colors
<vish> thorwil: well the text is not my choice either ... final but the team is the "Ubunutu Manual team" and the name is the "Ubuntu Manual"... and the version is the "Ubuntun 9.10".... so what to do :(
<Equiet_> vish: Add more another text. :P
<vish> hehe ;)
<londonali1010> vish, I'm finding the red in the corner distracting, actually, can't stop staring at it :)
<thorwil> vish: the "The" can't stay there, as one sees it too late. can't read that way, messes up flow
<coz_> less intense colours perhaps
<vish> thorwil: ... i wanted to make it lees noticable ;)
<thorwil> vish: one ubuntu for the title, one for the team. put the version in proximity to the title
<londonali1010> coz_, It's gotta have *some* colour though, or...*yawn*!
<coz_> londonali1010,  yes I meant the red  and the upper left logo
<thorwil> vish: "Ubuntu Manual Team" doesn't line up with anything
<coz_> cover the top portion with hand... the rest is fine
<vish> thorwil: was wondering when you mention that align ;p
<thorwil> vish: repetition of the CoC is also questionable. especially cropped like that, leaving a third out
<vish> thorwil: cropped?
<thorwil> vish: dark edge around the title looks dirty, like it doesn't belong to the type and is no believable shadow either
<thorwil> vish: big grey CoC. one of the friends is missing
<vish> thorwil: oh that.. its a place holder for now... they want to use some logo of the lynx... dont even get me started on that :/
<coz_> that red could be changed to mid range grey gradient
<thorwil> vish: is there a fixed page layout for the content? if there is one, you should use the same margins for orientation. perhaps even the baseline grid
<vish> coz_: the color of the edge is not fixed... for every version the color is to change
<vish> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots
<coz_> vish,  understood
<vish> thorwil: ^
<coz_> vish,  whoa that last link the colours are way too intense   for my ey
<coz_> eye
<londonali1010> vish, OMG, waaay too bright!
<vish> londonali1010: those aernt mine ... :) ... i'm showing you the versions they already want to use ;p
<londonali1010> Are the colours for each version meant to coordinate with the logo? Or will they be like, blue, and green and things?
<thorwil> vish: both proposed title pages are dilettantish but have more convincing layouts than yours
<coz_> I disagree
<vish> londonali1010: my idea for the corner is to use a color from the default wallpaper
<londonali1010> vish, Oh, okay, I see. Just so long as it coordinates with the logo, not clashes with it, I'll be happy :)
<thorwil> vish: the title "The Ubuntu Manual" must be the clear number one. what everyone has to focus on first. heaviest thing on the page
<thorwil> vish: the corner effect is bound to clash with that. it's tacky and cheap
<londonali1010> That's what I meant about the corner being distracting...It's the first thing I look at.
<vish> londonali1010: thorwil: they want the version number to be prominent :(
<vish> to catch the user attention
<londonali1010> But surely not at the expense of the title itself? :)
<thorwil> vish: put in proximity to the title, then
<londonali1010> Overall, I like the style, it's far more refined and less "Linux" than the others you linked to.
<londonali1010> ;P
<coz_> I agree... cover the top portion and it works   so just a few adjustments to the upper colours and values  even if you keep the "page flip"
<vish> well... serves me right to show it to thorwil when i'v done something for just under and hour ;p
<vish> an*
<coz_> vish,  i think the desing overall is quite nice
<coz_> design
<vish> ;)
<londonali1010> vish, The colour of "The Ubuntu Manual" title is bothering me...It's too warm for the rest of the grey. Can you either warm it up even more, to a taupe-y colour to complement the logo, or cool it down more like your CoC placeholder?
 * vish tweaks
<thorwil> vish: what's the page size/format?
<vish> thorwil: not sure... i havent looked much into the manual... i just started fooling around with the original svg...
<thorwil> vish: if it shall be possible to print the book on an A4 printer, you have to have an empty margin
<vish> thorwil: oh.. why so?
<thorwil> vish: because you usually can't print on the whole page. so either you have a margin by design, or you let the printer leave one out. possibly a different one by model, but always with ugly dimensions
<vish> thorwil: ah... ok.
<vish> londonali1010: you mentioned conky... any interesting stuff lately?
<thorwil> vish: but if you have things that touch the edge of the page, you should have at least 3mm safety area for cropping
<thorwil> vish: damn, i don't have the right english terms for this at hand
<vish> thorwil: its mainly to be supplied as a pdf format with
<vish> i dont think they intend it to be printed .. but i'll asl
<vish> ask*
<thorwil> vish: yes, but who likes to read so much text on screen?
<londonali1010> vish, Oh, if you only knew! ;P I write for the Conky Blog: http://blog.conky.be. I also have a customisation blog: http://mylittledesktop.blogspot.com, and I talk about some of the finer details :)
<thorwil> troy_s: you will love this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots :)
<coz_> :)
<vish> oh no... not troy_s !
<thorwil> vish: behave, or i add your link, too ;p
<troy_s> Wow.
 * vish hides
 * vish removes dropbox link
<coz_> lol
<thorwil> hehe
<coz_> oh troy_s  not that bad a fellow
<troy_s> thorwil: Looking. What smear campaign have you been propagating against me?!!?! LOL.
<troy_s> Uh oh... another one... that coz_ guy!
<coz_> troy_s,  as usual :)
<thorwil> troy_s: no smear campaign, it's all deep respect ;)
<vish> londonali1010: i used to tweak the hell out of conky.. but recently a lot has changed.. ;
<troy_s> thorwil: Wow... how to make Free Software art and design better overnight? Banish the glossy penguin and Ubuntu title font.
<troy_s> That is some ... questionable typography.  Yikes.
<troy_s> "Love the second proposal! But perhaps the Lynx could be hand-drawn and really "arty" instead of a photo? - Benjamin Humphrey"
<troy_s> Wow... wonder what he is getting at.
<londonali1010> vish, Yes, you're right. Since we've had Cairo and Imlib2 bindings for Lua put in, Conky has suddenly become graphical as well as textual.
<troy_s> lol
<thorwil> troy_s: yeah. afterwards you will have people still not knowing what comes first (like, you no, a title). to not even start with details like the use of first line indent on first paragraphs
<troy_s> And compositionally questionable at best.
<troy_s> thorwil: Sadly, there is a book about typography that many accept as a pretty solid canon. Bringhurst's book is pretty reliable for those that don't want to know about why, just get to 'solid'.
<vish> troy_s: thorwil: why dont either of you guys make a title page?
<thorwil> vish: i'm considering it. but there's enough other stuff and i don't want to spoil it for you
<thorwil> vish: i still think it's possible that _you_ come up with something decent
<londonali1010> Have any of you guys ever heard of "read smart" formatting?
<thorwil> not really
<vish> thorwil: meh... i was just fooling around... i dont mind if someone does it better :)  anyways... this is my very first attempt at a book cover  ;)
<thorwil> vish: if you go about this like with your icons, we will soon see something good
<vish> thorwil: hehe ;p
<trijntje> hi all. Where can I change te X11 boot screen? In karmic thats the single white on black ubuntu logo
<londonali1010> thorwil, It's pretty nifty, makes reading easier, apparently. More info in this article: http://www.humanfactors.com/downloads/febmar09.asp
<coz_> trijntje,   I have no idea... it is certainly ugly at best
<coz_> trijntje,  unless you mean the screen with the trobber progress bar?
<trijntje> coz_, I want to change it, but its stealth, nobody knows where it is
<trijntje> coz_, no, before that
<coz_> trijntje,  mm   no I dont know for sure.... you can change the progress bar xsplash screen fairly easily though
<troy_s> vish: Because I don't believe in contests. They are a bane. They have chosen a designer and are working with them I hope. If that is the case, that is the proper path. I applaud the approach. The output / destination / execution, however, should be scrutinized based on that decision.
<troy_s> vish: And with taglines such as "We need a snazzy title page." - you can see what kind of creative dynamic design sense has been bestowed at the company.
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> londonali1010: Formatting is one thing, but ultimate audience satisfaction and desirability is the end-all. There are trade offs.
<thorwil> good night! :)
<londonali1010> troy_s, Do you mean about the Kindle? I was only looking at the "read smart" bit of it...There's an example of it here:http://www.readsmart.com/pdf/sample2.pdf
<londonali1010> Just thought it was interesting for graphic-designer types :)
<troy_s> londonali1010: Yeah... vote up vote down, statistics and faceless data. I care more about specific audience responses to designs and the resulting data. And in the end, I care most about end audience experience and resulting desirability.
<troy_s> londonali1010: If an audience's desire and experience is elevated by a particular design approach, so be it. If clunky design results in a specific audience's elevated experience, so be it.
<troy_s> londonali1010: It's tricky stuff.
<londonali1010> troy_s, I agree with you, it's kind of like pop music, you can judge whether it's good or not, but at the end of the day, people buy it! :)
<troy_s> londonali1010: Amen. That is exactly what it is. NO one would dare try to write music for everyone, cook a meal for everyone, write a book for everyone, shoot a movie for everyone, etc.
<troy_s> londonali1010: What does it say about Free Software design when you read 'everyone'?
<londonali1010> Well, it's kind of stifling if you try to satisfy everyone. In the end you're guaranteed no one will really like it!
<troy_s> londonali1010: What sort of darker "I can't even see how blind I am" statements are being made when someone boldly puts forth a Human Interface Guideline? Does that apply to five years from now? How about an alternate cultural perspective in Asia? How about someone with specific motor skill impairment? How about someone with visual impairment?
<vish> troy_s: it isnt a competition.. :) but more they are open to community suggestions. so anyone can just post one... [why i mentioned was since you did most a mockup for boot sequence]
<vish> s/most/post
<coz_> that;s a fine line
<troy_s> vish: Which is a competition. Go out, get some balls, look for work that a creative team respects and work with the individual(s).
<vish> hehe ;)
<londonali1010> troy_s, I'd just like to see someone try the dynamic spacing thing in a widely distributed text, to see if anyone does like it.
<troy_s> vish: Point is that it is _extremely_ difficult to develop a sense of aesthetic - some people go to fine arts school and practise art and design, study art and design, and focus on it for _years_ and have a very tricky time defining an aesthetic.
<troy_s> londonali1010: I agree. I guess it starts with 'who the hell is this for?'
<troy_s> londonali1010: Bringhurst also suggests line lengths no longer than xxx values.
<londonali1010> troy_s, I prefer to work under the trial and error method...Esp. since some of the stuff I thought was the best, no one's liked, and vice versa!!!
<troy_s> londonali1010: And the dawn of the serif was intended to facilitate horizontal flow. But those are all contextual. There are many informal studies done on mp3 preference over lossless and some are now _choosing_ the mp3 sound. It is subjective and mercurial aesthetics.
<troy_s> londonali1010: Start with the who. Figure out the why. From there, the goal is to draw a line between the two.
<troy_s> londonali1010: So simple and so utterly complicated at the same moment.
<troy_s> coz_: How have you been? Any work?
<vish> troy_s: coz_ only helps the french[cairo-dock] ;p
<coz_> troy_s,  only for cairo dock at this point..... I havent had the time as usual....although most of my time has been spent with inksacpe  so that is becoming more and more familiar territory for me
<vish> see!
<coz_> troy_s,  infact    when I think bout anything to create it is generally always with inkscape in mind these days
<coz_> troy_s,  although if I had the money I would leave all this... move to italy and paint in oils and sculp for the remainder of my like :)
<coz_> life
<trijntje> Hi all, do you guy's know what is used to draw the white on black ubuntu logo during boot?
<troy_s> coz_: I've been there for years my friend.
<troy_s> coz_: That said, it isn't quite high grade enough. Blender is by far the most advanced and sophisticated toolset we have.
<troy_s> coz_: But I tend to combine the two quite often.
<troy_s> coz_: Speaking of sculpt - pick up 2.5 and try the new sculpt tools.
<troy_s> coz_: wow.
<troy_s> trijntje: I suspect it is a usplash variant.
<troy_s> trijntje: Judging from the low resolution aspect ratio agnostic gongshow.
<troy_s> trijntje: Don't quote me on that though. kwwii is probably the one most well equipped to answer that question here.
<coz_> trijntje,   and I doubt you will get a decent response from #ubuntu channel with this....
<trijntje> troy_s, i want to change it, but its next to impossible to find how
<troy_s> trijntje: That answer probably lies in some obscure corner of the remix documents for rebranding.
<trijntje> coz_, already tried that before I came here, nothing usefull, other people who want to know the same thing
<troy_s> trijntje: Also try #ubuntustudio-devel and perhaps track down TheMuso.
<coz_> trijntje,  right i know... that is what generaly happens there when no one knows the answer
<troy_s> trijntje: They change theirs... superm1 from #ubuntu-mythtv-devel could help you perhaps too. But he is deadly busy so try not to nag him.
<troy_s> trijntje: Look to the distributions that change it - superm1 heads Mythbuntu and stochastic or TheMuso SHOULD be able to help you from Ubuntu Studio.
<trijntje> changing all other artwork is easy, but this is hard..
<troy_s> trijntje: And when you find the information, wiki it so that other's can find it.
<coz_> trijntje,  if you find out let me know :)
<trijntje> will do, IF I ever find it out ;)
<troy_s> trijntje: You _will_ if you try one of those two contacts. I promise.
<trijntje> troy_s, so if I get this right they changed it in ubuntustudio, so someone there should know how to do it?
<troy_s> trijntje: I wouldn't lie to you. :)
<trijntje> :D
<troy_s> trijntje: I can't remember if they changed it, but TheMuso is a bloody genius as is superm1.
<troy_s> trijntje: They will at least be able to get you another contact person that will know or will lead you closer to the destination.
<troy_s> trijntje: Don't forget #ubuntu-devel. There are many extremely bright and knowledgeable minds there.
<trijntje> troy_s, I will do that, thanks for your help
<coz_> ok I need to eat supper   .... yummm... be back a bit later :)
<londonali1010> Can anyone point me to a resource for starting to learn how to package stuff? I'm not much a programmer, but I have some artwork that I'd like to package in a PPA rather than using DevArt, but I'm a complete newbie at it...
<troy_s> londonali1010: Debian.
<troy_s> londonali1010: Start with the Debian tutorials. They are the canonical references.
<londonali1010> Okay, I'll have a look. Thanks.
<troy_s> londonali1010: When asked...
<troy_s> londonali1010: I have always been pointed at the Debian stuff such as http://wiki.debian.org/HowToPackageForDebian
<londonali1010> *Bookmarked*!
<troy_s> londonali1010: And this one was from TheMuso I believe... http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-debpkg.html
<londonali1010> Thanks, that should get me started. I'm determined to learn! :)
<mrmcq2u> mmmmmmm......... the new gnome-activity-journal ui rocks :D
<vish> londonali1010: heh... we struggled to find some to package the humanity icons as well ;)
 * vish very lazy to read instructions
<vish> find someone*
<londonali1010> vish, I confess I find it tough because I'm not a developer, so a lot of the how-tos go over my head! Then again, so did GTK themes when I started :S
 * vish wonders what to do...
<vish> of all the changes you folks mentioned only Equiet_'s they like...  they dont like them :/
<troy_s> vish: What sorry?
<vish> troy_s: oh... before you logged in i guess , i had shown a mockup for the cover
<troy_s> vish: Were there others?
<troy_s> vish: Where is it?
<vish> hmm.. just a sec
<troy_s> vish: I'd be interested to see all of them if you have links.
<vish> well... this was my first try ever at the book cover > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/1.png
<vish> has some pretty obvious mistakes... i just didnt care to look ;)
<vish> troy_s: this is with some of the changes > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/new.png
<vish> note the logo monochrome logo is just a place holder , they want to use a lynx watermark :/
<troy_s> vish: More mimicry in using a Lynx. Trying to be like OReilly.
<troy_s> vish: Unfortunate.
<troy_s> vish: Were there other's put on the table>
<troy_s> ?
<vish> troy_s: i didnt understandwhere/to whom?
<troy_s> vish: You mentioned Eq's?
<troy_s> vish: The changes are like bickering about the number of sesame seeds on the bun.
<troy_s> vish: Who is it for?>
<vish> troy_s: no... Equiet_ pointed out that the padding in the top COC was wrong in my initial mockup... that change they like..
<vish> but some of the other changes they are reluctant... they like the old color in the top corner better
<troy_s> vish: Quite true. The padding in the pill is arguably better in the 2nd. As is the right alignment... but in the end, the changes are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The bigger question is "What direction to go?"
<troy_s> vish: And that can only be answered by asking "Who is it for?" with specific answers.
<troy_s> vish: Who is 'they'?
<vish> troy_s: they == "the manual taem"
<troy_s> vish: While they are qualified to select a cover, are they qualified as art directors?
<coz_> exactly
<troy_s> vish: Be careful with advice - it will lead you blindly.
<vish> troy_s: i dont think so :) .. but its their project
<troy_s> vish: If they wish to hold the pencil, tell them to do so.
<troy_s> vish: Then so be it.
<coz_> vish,  their project or not   ... just blind them with good design
<vish> troy_s: i try to just get in between their suggestions/idea and a better design ;)
<troy_s> vish: Let solid art and design _choices_ be rooted in solid art and design thinking. Let poor art and design be rooted in arbitrary and loose principle.
<troy_s> vish: Impossible.
<troy_s> vish: The very act of art and design is selection. It is judgement. It is exclusion.
<vish> troy_s: any changes to the recent one you'd suggest
<troy_s> vish: No. I know nothing of the audience nor the goal.
<troy_s> vish: Is it for an avant garde publication? Is it to be featured in the New Yorker? Who is the reader? What are you trying to communicate?
<troy_s> vish: But be wary of advice. Be critical of even what I am saying now. Who is the advice from? What 'knowledge' is it moored in?
<vish> troy_s: just for the average user... they plan to propose it as a simple user help doc in the default install
<troy_s> vish: Does it carry weight in relationship to your world?
<troy_s> vish: First big mistake - there is no average user.
<troy_s> vish: There are no users.
<troy_s> vish: There are people. Every single one is complicated, fascinating, and subject to a plethora of different principles.
<vish> troy_s: thats their "plan" they dont really have a plan for the design AFAIK
<troy_s> vish: Any design is subject to those rules. There are hidden and blind 'assumptions'. You know what happens when one assumes right?
<troy_s> vish: _Exactly_.
<troy_s> vish: And in that, without a goal, without a metric... how can you evaluate any degree of success?
<vish> hehe ;)
<vish> very true
<troy_s> vish: If I yell at you and say J'AIME TU, do you worry?
<coz_> :)
<troy_s> vish: Design and art is communication. Plain and simple. Like it or not, it drags with it about 2000 years of theory and practice. It embodies a complex world of patterns, symbols, and arcane principles that are applied specifically to culture, history, and language.
<troy_s> vish: Is Acid Wash chic or tacky? Is a Walkman Haute Couture or retro? What about a shiny phone with no keyboard or obvious buttons?
<coz_> it still boils down to good design  good composition....
<troy_s> coz_: Tricky... there have been a couple of good books that actually cite radical differences in composition.
<troy_s> coz_: Westernized art is pretty much solidly moored in phi... thank Leonardo and the other brilliant minds of the Ren... tribal Africa subject to an entirely different set of aesthetics. Asia as well.
<troy_s> coz_: Such a tricky landscape.
<coz_> troy_s,   I would have to read those books
<coz_> troy_s,   most of the cultural differences of compositional techniques are well know
<troy_s> coz_: The one I have is dry as heck. It's research based... rather boring. But the case it makes is somewhat obvious.
<troy_s> coz_: An interesting read that asks some of those questions - http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~lera/papers/mandarin.pdf
<coz_> downloading now
 * vish grabs link
<troy_s> coz_: Mandarin seems to be a very investigated language. Google "Mandarin Thought Shape" and you will find a number of hits.
<coz_> troy_s,  I still think that the artist's individual sense of composition is key... it does take study and understanding to individualize but I believe that is still primary goal
<troy_s> coz_: It is learnt. There is no nature versus nurture here. Aesthetic is temporal and learnt.
<troy_s> coz_: Exactly the point of the acid wash. The iPhone looks chic now, give it five years.
<troy_s> coz_: Every aspect is rather mercurial.
<coz_> troy_s,  my problem is those who make the final decisions about work completed...what are their particular skills
<troy_s> coz_: Most certainly knowing this, studying art history etc, all helps to shape what might be a useful aesthetic for a given area.
<troy_s> coz_: Agree. What about a terrific idea that is poorly executed?
<troy_s> coz_: Complex stuff.
<coz_> troy_s,  well poorly executed is the artists  responisiblity
<troy_s> coz_: Still - there comes a time where some concept forks into what it turns into and what it could have been. The execution is ultimately all that matters. But how many discard ideas based on poor execution? It is why we fail rather radically in our ability to evaluate sketch mocks.
<troy_s> coz_: (And of course, poorly executed is subject to audience. Go to Gnome-Look, KDE-Look and look at the rankings. There _is_ an aesthetic in our culture. I am just radically opposed to it.)
<coz_> troy_s,  oh god... both of those sites sometimes makes me shiver :)
<troy_s> coz_: You aren't the audience. For _someone_ however, I get the feeling it is filling a need.
<coz_> troy_s,  people want to be involved   and those sites offer an outlet
<troy_s> coz_: Blind vote up down is useless random noise disguised as data.
<darkmatter> troy_s: by cultural aesthetic you mean "idiots with a graphics editor", correct? if so I agree
<troy_s> coz_: Sad. Same reason that brainstorms are complete failure. They are steered by a current random audience horde.
<troy_s> darkmatter: Hard to say. I wish the source of all 'issues' were idiocy. Unfortunately, our culture has way too many brilliant minds to make that a factor.
<darkmatter> meh... I should quit caring and finish working on my designs. not that they'll ever become a reality (everyones to busy copycatting), but maybe they'll jumpstart some brain usage
<coz_> troy_s,  brilliant minds  do not make art
<troy_s> coz_: Wow. Couldn't disagree more with you on that one. LOL.
<coz_> troy_s,   is a flawlessy  rendered human figure  art?
<coz_>  of course not
<troy_s> coz_: Hrm... Picasso might disagree.
<coz_> it takes great skill to render the human figure  ,,,many years of study   but it is not art
<troy_s> coz_: Or perhaps rather, on the other side, Leo would.
<coz_> it is draftsmanship
<coz_> it is the use of the human figure that moves from draftsmanship to art  in the composition
 * darkmatter supports coz_ on this observation
<troy_s> coz_: Sure... but it took what... 400 years to get to that?
<troy_s> coz_: It wasn't until the Modernists that we started to agree that pure mimicry was rather... un arty.
<coz_> composition is the key... i have argued this topic  for years  even with some so called  great  art professors
<coz_> no one needs to be able to draw to compose great works of art
<coz_> it is the understanding of the times...your place in those times...and the knowledge  of your skills that can communicate to large audiences
<troy_s> coz_: Problem is composition is a moving target coz_. The 'establishment' forms and then the new wave of artists smash it. Hello Rationalists, hello Modernists, hello Postmodernism. For every Impressionist there came a Constructivist.
<troy_s> coz_: Amen.
<troy_s> coz_: And the relationship of that time to the time just passing. Perhaps even to the time ahead.
<coz_> troy_s,  yeah but in reality compoisiton has not really changed...just the elements used within it
<troy_s> coz_: Erm... El Lissitsky flipped that pretty good. Many of those Soviets did actually.
<coz_> sorry
<darkmatter> coz_: I like to refer to it as 'conceptual simplicity/structural complexity' when it comes to interfaces. be they physical or perceived. The approach needs to change in the way things are handled. there is still this nasty habit to seperate the graphics/patterns/code as seperate entities and then randomly glue the end results together
<coz_> darkmatter,  understood.....
<darkmatter> it should be about form and function as a unified whole. because just like traditional art, there are no separate entities
<coz_> darkmatter,  I think I agree  I might have to think that one through :)
<darkmatter> coz_: bit busy. so I kinda cut the description down. but you don't arbitrarily slap stuff together. In the end the canvas, media, subject, composition are codependent, as the nature of each affects the whole. It's one of those 'obvious' things, and it applies to software as well, the only difference is the software industry is oblivious to the obvious for the most part
<coz_> darkmatter,  then yes I agree :)
<troy_s> darkmatter: It's holistic. Don't forget what happens in the real world around the computer either - as that drives the aesthetic. The geographical culture, the historical context, the age demographic... Interesting stuffs really.
<darkmatter> troy_s: true.
<troy_s> Now it's time to getting back to watching blind shots in the dark that are pushed and pulled with the tide.
<darkmatter> troy_s: I wasn't speaking solely of the aesthetics however, mainly I was ragging about the current methodology/formula in development as a whole being fundamentally broken
<troy_s> darkmatter: I might agree with you. It shall be even more painfully clear as design thinking is either adopted to success or discarded in failure.
<darkmatter> brb... need to re-bandage. my hand is bleeding again
<darkmatter> by the way. stipple is evil
<darkmatter> coz_: I woke up in the best imaginable way today. phone was ringing, got out of bed. got dizzy (sinus infection I'm dealing with). reached out to catch myself. gotta love sloped ceilings. caught the edge of my hand on a jagged bit o' stipple, stabbed in about an 8th of an inch and body weight dragged it through. gotta gash that bled for an hour
<darkmatter> coz_: it was a groggy to "JESUSF***INGCHRIST!" morning :P
<coz_> darkmatter,  yikes dude!!!
<coz_> darkmatter,   you feeling ok now?
<darkmatter> coz_: yeah. was feeling fine all along, aside from the blood trail :)
<coz_> :)
<darkmatter> who would have realized the hazards of stippling
<coz_> darkmatter,  I understand...had my first nose bleed christmas eve..lost one quart and a half of blood
<coz_> darkmatter, lol
<coz_> ok guys I am breaking here for a bit...  be back later
<darkmatter> the missus got home from the store, saw me sitting on the sofa watching tv and having a coffee with my left had resting on a blood stained towel and was almost a perfect caricature of the "O_O" emote
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-08
<vish> zniavre: the nautilus changes[extra pane and bunch of other stuff] landed in Lucid
<zniavre> :o)
<zniavre> vish what is the other stuff ?
<zniavre> is  it rgba able now?
<vish> zniavre: i think the RBGA and client side items landed too.. [i havent tried them though]
<zniavre> haha ...
<vish> bleh... nautilus feels weird now :/   they moved the zoom in the center of the toolbar buttons
<zniavre> im so sad i can't try it with my comp > installing a small soft is already a nightmare i can't think installing a full OS
 * vish turns off main toolbar :/
<vish> zniavre: from the RBGA bug report is seems it has landed
<vish> argh! two more context menu items :/   "copy to" and "move to"
<darkmatter> vish: how many times have I told you. nautilus is a worthless and convoluted pile of **** ;)
<vish> darkmatter: seriously... the context menu is like a takeout menu now! looks like a long list of everything i could try at some point !
<darkmatter> vish: yes, plus if I wanted a split pane I'd use gnome commander or some other filer that does it correctly. I am REALLY starting to hate the half-hearted and careless approach to software design
<thorwil> morning!
<vish> hehe , now if someone wants to use the location using keyboard , they can do it _only_ with the keyboard ;)
<thorwil> nautilus does split pane in an incorrect way?
<vish> or i havent found a button to do it yet ;p
 * vish starts cursing at the window!
<thorwil> darkmatter: the currently popular approach to "design" seems to be taking a wild guess on what might be a good strategy to then run with with an implementation, talking about and tweaking details as you stumble over them
<thorwil> vish: any news on the book cover?
<darkmatter> thorwil: pretty much
<darkmatter> vish: I've not seen the new context menu, so is it like a convoluted and redundant mess that does, like, copy/move with a file chooser/browse dialog while retaining copy and paste?
<darkmatter> copy and cut*
<thorwil> wtf: http://www.photo-editor-pro.com/
<darkmatter> thorwil: it's GNU, deal with it :P
<darkmatter> thorwil: I've seen worse. there was a company selling *their* office suite for $149.95 or something like that. bargain basement price for OO.o
<vish> re
<vish> just a sec let me get the default screenshots!
<vish> darkmatter: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot.png
<vish> thorwil: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Screenshot-guest-home.F839KN%20-%20File%20Browser-1.png
<vish> thorwil: cover this was the final versioni ended up with > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1325768/Cover.png
<wolter> oh lord.. I hope i can disable some of those
<wolter> like copy to and move to
<wolter> thats so.. windows
<darkmatter> vish: yeah. pretty much the convoluted approach I thought
<vish> thorwil: is how they want to use it > http://imagebin.ca/view/Is-TiOI.html
<wolter> yeah well, a bit changed
 * vish scratches head... :/ needs to fix the "home" icon.. seems like a dwarf there ;p
<wolter> we made the white strip in the head more triangular, the lower "beard" a bit darker, and the "Created by" is now well aligned
 * vish bbiab
<thorwil> i think the shape of the eye is way off. outer corner much too high/sharp
<thorwil> wolter: do you happen to know the page size and margins for the content?
<wolter> thorwil, well, I use the US Letter size inkscape provides
<thorwil> wolter: the book is in US letter format?
<wolter> thorwil, yes
<wolter> thorwil, is it strange?
<thorwil> wolter: i don't know how (un)common that is. there's obviously quite some variation in book formats
<thorwil> will be fun if someone tries to print that on din a4
<thorwil> us letter: 215.9 Ã 279.4 , din a4: 210 x 297 mm
<thorwil> wolter: what's your role in the manual project?
 * thorwil does household chores
<wolter> thorwil, i am helping making chapter 9
<wolter> and also making the cover
<wolter> well, a version of it
<wolter> and i made the lynx
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-09
<Equiet> Does UX or UI team exist?
<thorwil> Equiet: you mean as open/community team? no
<Equiet> There should be one.
<thorwil> Equiet: there has been some talk about the idea that the artwork team should rather be a design team. or that there should be place for UI concepts, at least
<thorwil> Equiet: but i've seen so many UI concepts/mockups ... never leading to any result
<thorwil> Equiet: very few people have what it takes to create a solid design. than you always run into lots of technical issues and nothing ever can happen without a competent developer doing it
<thorwil> Equiet: last time mat_t said that he would like to see such concepts, i told him all that, plus that canonical would have to provide guidance and see to get good concepts implemented. this was met with silence
<Equiet> I know. Developers don't join to artwork groups, but maybe they would join to UI group...
<thorwil> Equiet: the solution i would favor is the creation of a flash-like development tool to be used for semi-functional mockups as well as final applications
<thorwil> Equiet: something that would lower the barrier to entry drastically, allowing designers to become UI developers
<thorwil> combined with strong separation of backend/frontend
<Equiet> thorwil: For Flash, do you also mean clickable elements?
<thorwil> Equiet: of course
<thorwil> Equiet: a point-and-click interface builder with strong animation capabilities combined with a scripting language
<thorwil> Equiet: ideally the results would be usable as web or desktop app by default
<thorwil> but i don't see anyone ready to take on such an ambitious project
<thorwil> just look at the fact that there have been tools like flash and director since many years ... with no floss competition to speak of at all
<Equiet> I am web developer, clickable elements and simple animations are quite easy with jQuery.
<Equiet> But nothing more.
<darkmatter> I actually draw a lot of inspiration from web design.
<Equiet> What to do to make a new team?
<thorwil> Equiet: you seriously want to do that? please, don't waste your and other people's time.
<thorwil> Equiet: but if i can't convince you, try to talk about with kwwii, who's in the game much longer and deeper
<thorwil> lunch time
<darkmatter> there are plenty of competent designers AND devs, and some that are bit of each. the problem is they tend to lack communication skills/mutual respect. an even bigger issue is that neither camp understands that development is not sequential (at least not proper development), but is parallel. it's called a lack of experience last time I checked
<darkmatter> greater separation between the backend and gui is impractical for several reasons. the most obvious being designers can't fix backend issues and devs can't fix design issues. very basic example. a dev does something stupid that ends up requiring user interaction for a feature that should be automatic, because the dev thinks it's important to get the user to click something, or simply because of a lack of intelligent programming. the u
<darkmatter> separating the process, and thus increasing the sequential 'skew' if you will only compounds the issue. you either work together as a whole or you may as well give up
<darkmatter> we have other items of contention as well, like the annoying habit of slapping in yet another feature. which is wrong from both a programming and design perspective
<darkmatter> you either replace an existing feature with a new one that accomplishes things in a better (even if different) manner, or you simply extend the existing feature. it's called conservation, and it has the wonderful sideffect of avoiding unnecessary bloat in both code and ui
<thorwil> darkmatter: one point of frontend/backend separation would be too keep the interaction out of the heavy lifting. have the hard to develop bits in a library. add a layer of glue. allow the designer to change at least some aspects of the gui by himself, without having to dive into C(#/++)
<darkmatter> thorwil: that much I can agree with, but it shouldn't be so much a matter of a higher degree of separation as smarter tools in general (I'm including libraries in my definition of tools btw). simplify callbacks, etc. extend language support in the toolkits. I've long supported the idea of highly specialized css, xml and html gui-level libraries (among more advanced ideas)
<darkmatter> improve the building blocks in general
<darkmatter> structural complexity. which is one of the reasons you don't really see it anywhere. it exists to an extend in win and mac, but it seems to be a foreign concept in our culture
<darkmatter> but regardless of how you do things, it requires a great deal of compromise and cooperation on both fronts. which is why I always argue that code-level development and design are not separate entities
<thorwil> now that's some rather unusual identity design: http://www.underconsideration.com/brandnew/archives/follow-up_uefa_euro2012.php
<darkmatter> thorwil: I actually like it (the fact I'm a slav is not withstanding :P). even before I saw the 'poland-ukraine' part I knew exactly where it was :P
<darkmatter> it conveys the host and the sport quite adequately. plus its a lovely composition
<thorwil> darkmatter: i couldn't make that connection, but this is full of really great craftsmanship, distinct and consequent
<darkmatter> aye
<darkmatter> thorwil: I made the connection mainly because I'm from an artistic family, so the cultural motifs have always been present in my life.
<thorwil> can it be inkscape loading time is influenced by number of installed fonts?
<darkmatter> thorwil: perhaps. I know gimps is
<thorwil> sucks
<vish> wow... unity,rivalry,passion designs are awesome...
<darkmatter> yup
<vish> thorwil: there is a bug in inkscape regarding that for a long time... :/
<vish> Bug #196822
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 196822 in inkscape "upon start, uses 100% CPU and delays showing window" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/196822
 * darkmatter smacks vish upside the head with a pencil sketch of Sojourn
<Equiet> And what about creating only wiki page for posting UI concepts? Developers could later inspire from there...
<thorwil> Equiet: the problem is that they don't
 * Equiet is very sad about this.
<thorwil> Equiet: what does work is when a designer approaches a project or even better a single developer and first discusses if there is a room for cooperation. that is seeing if there is a problem space both parties agree on. the scope of what can be implemented has to be discussed
<thorwil> Equiet: the other way could work as well: a project describes a problem or desired functionality and invites designers to get in contact
<Equiet> Maybe we should spam other's mailing lists. :)
<thorwil> yeah, more hot air is what moves free software forward ;)
<vish> Equiet: we need to remember that there is now a design *team* in place... so unless there a call for mockups from them  , we cant change much in Ubuntu itself ;)
<vish> Equiet: also , there is the ayatana mailing list , where you can propose your designs
<darkmatter> http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/8469/screenshotlp.png <-- fixed my clock :O
<thorwil> the ayatana list seems to be all about notifications, though
<vish> yeah.. mostly now there has been rants about it ;)
<jaapz> Hey all!
<jaapz> Im starting a new project, called t00mblr, which is a tumblr.com client
<jaapz> And i thought maybe someone here would like to make me a logo for that project? :D
<jaapz> well, if youre in for it, mail me at jaapz.b [at] gmail [dot] com
<jaapz> Or just say it now :P
<Equiet> jaapz: Tell us a little bit more. Explain features...
<jaapz> Well do you know tumblr.com
<jaapz> Its a microblogging service
<jaapz> But has some more features than twitte
<Equiet> I know.
<jaapz> All features tumblr.com has will my client also have eventually :P
<Equiet> In what language are you going to write it?
<jaapz> Python
<jaapz> Its sort of a learning project to me also
<jaapz> I know some python, but by making this app i want to learn some more :P
<jaapz> I know there is a tumblr client for linux out there, but i just dont like that program
<darkmatter> hmmm... Python is ok. at the vary least the mandatory indenting will teach you proper formatting ;P
<darkmatter> very*
<jaapz> :P
<jaapz> But if anyone here wants to make a logo, i'd love that :D
<thorwil> jaapz: hi! just in case _if_ no one here bites, you could try the tango project mailing list or perhaps the ubuntu-art list. the lists generally mean more people will see your message
<jaapz> thorwil, i never used mailinglists before but i'll check that out :D thanks!
<vish> jaapz: Also , the ubuntu-art mailing list.... there is an artwork request wiki page in gnome...
<vish> jaapz: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/ArtRequests/ , anyone can request there
<jaapz> vish, thanks! im going to use that :D
<vish> np
<vish> thorwil: why dont we have a request page for Ubuntu as well... [although it might be used less...]
<thorwil> vish: because nobody created one
<jaapz> xD
<vish> ah... ;)
<thorwil> vish: when we had discussions about our mission statement, working on such requests wasn't included. i was actually the only one to mention it
<thorwil> vish: pretty much everyone else was all about wallpapers and themes
<vish> thorwil: but since Ubuntu has a lot more users and more out reach.. we can have one and I'm pretty sure it will be watched more
<thorwil> vish: finally, for a while it looked like i was the only one to take on such jobs on the list
<vish> thorwil: hm... ok.. I'll set one up.. in the same format as the gnome one... is that ok?
<thorwil> with the notable exception of troy creating a logo for ubuntu-women
<thorwil> vish: you have my blessing, but please bring it up on the list, first
<vish> ah.. sure
<thorwil> vish: Ken might have something to say and maybe somone else has some considerations to add
<jaapz> live.gnome.org is freaking slow
<vish> kwwii: ^ ?
<Equiet> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/BootExperienceProject
<Equiet> In Work Item Summary, Design team means Ubuntu Artwork Team?
<vish> Equiet: nope... design team == canonical design team
<vish> Equiet: https://launchpad.net/~canonical-ux
<vish> thorwil: Dani has been busy on the gnome-shell ML ;)
<vish> maybe he is done with breathe for now ...
<thorwil> vish: i guess without ckontros, not much will happen with breathe
<vish> yeah... sad though...
<vish> darkmatter: around?
<vish> or thorwil the button used in the natilus main toolbar is the 22px button or the 24px?
<vish>  22px icon*
<thorwil> vish: no idea
<vish> hmm...
<thorwil> in case of tango, shouldn't that be 22, never 24?
<vish> thorwil: yeah.. but i wanted to fix the computer icon in humanity.. it is bigger than the Home icon on the toolbar and t looks awkward :/
<thorwil> vish: so i added a first proposal (2 versions) to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-manual/Screenshots
<Equiet> Wow. http://student.science.uva.nl/~sqdh/gs-mockup/
<vish> thorwil: hmm... i'm not very sure i like the lynx being so prominent
<vish> thorwil: do you have the lynx svg?
<thorwil> vish: yes. the whole idea of using a lynx is questionable. but i will not risk having my design shot down for a lack of lynx ;)
<vish> hehe ;)
<Equiet> If somebody would like to make an interactive UI concept, I can code somthing like this: http://student.science.uva.nl/~sqdh/gs-mockup/ .
<Equiet> Sry, wrong link. http://student.science.uva.nl/~sqdh/gs-mockup/2/
<vish> Equiet: why is the button on the top left and the menu shown on the right ;)
<thorwil> vish: pictures tend to attract the eye. nothing catches attention like depictions of eyes. so there is hardly a chance of avoiding a fight between a lynx picture and the title
<thorwil> vish: so i placed what catches the attention anyway first, close as posible to the title and neatly aligned. minimizing conflict
<Equiet> vish: What button?
<vish> thorwil: yeah... but the issue is the lynx is only for this version then the next version the next animal.. so making the animal very prominent is a hazard
<thorwil> vish: i also have to admit that this lynx predates the cover design
<vish> Equiet: the "activities"
<thorwil> vish: not at all. new version, new cover
<Equiet> I don't know, but it looks good.
<vish> Equiet: if i press a button on the left is would expect the menu to be shown closer to my selection.. not the other side right?
<vish> seems confusing to me though
<vish> thorwil: is the lynx done in svg.. they asked me to use the lynx from wolter's design but i was considering using saleel's lynx but your's looks more awesome
<Equiet> I have read it trought and looks like the autor wanted to make workspace more important.
<thorwil> vish: yes, svg traced from a pencil sketch
<vish> thorwil: could i use it? :)
<thorwil> vish: sure. still use that drkvi minus a at yahoo dot com address?
<vish> thorwil: yup.. thanks
<vish> @yahoo.com
<vish> hmm... !
<vish> thorwil: why do people do that? at instead of @ .... dot com instead of .com?  i never understood it
<thorwil> vish: protection against address collecting bots. though they might well work with those simple replacements
<thorwil> vish: i don't care for my own address, it's widely distributed since long. spammers can kiss my feet
<vish> thorwil: ah. that's why.. damn the bots...
<thorwil> how the fuck do i join a mailing list via launchpad? a click on the Subscribe link send me to an edit-email-settings page
<vish> thorwil: it might mean you are already a part of the list
<thorwil> and that page has nothing for joining the list in question. sometimes i hate LP
<vish> thorwil: i got the mail , thanks
<thorwil> vish: i would have expected LP to tell me about a succesful subscription
<thorwil> hell, gimme a plain mailman page like every other sane list
<vish> it does , but sometimes it is buggy as hell!
<vish> doesnt inform you just joined
<thorwil> doesn't appear in the "Mailing list subscriptions" list
<thorwil> so i need to become a team member and can't actually subscribe via that Subscribe button ...
<darkmatter> vish: I am now (I was sleeping like a baby). iirc, nautilus uses 24 pix in the toolbar and falls back to 22 if none is available . one of the many things I dislike about gnome in general. they can't even agree on a size for toolbar icons.
<vish> darkmatter: oh.. ok. but yeah , each app uses either 22/24 px :/
<darkmatter> vish: well, officially it's supposed to be 24 for large toolbars, and *20* for small toolbars, as that is what is defined by gtk+ itself. they can't even get that right. but yeah. for the most part if the 24 isnt available the app will look for a named 22 to fill its place
<darkmatter> gnome-panel on the otherhand defaults to 22 for applets.. insanity
<vish> darkmatter: they should remove the text beside icons option for toolbars ...! it seems soo awkward on a horizontal toolbar.. while that makes sense on buttons
<darkmatter> hears an idea. kill the redundant normal size. it serves no purpose other than frustration and pixel bloat
<darkmatter> vish: by default, yes. I'd agree with that as a general rule
#ubuntu-artwork 2010-01-10
<JesseW> Where can I find the sources for the default wallpapers in the ubuntu-wallpapers package?
<JesseW> Well, I found the launchpad entry, and from there the bzr repo, and from there the AUTHOR's file: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-art-pkg/ubuntu-wallpapers/ubuntu/annotate/head%3A/AUTHORS
<JesseW> Oh, and the IRC logs seem to be gone, or at least the link on the wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork ) is broken.
<JesseW> Ah, and I found it, in the flickr group: http://www.flickr.com/photos/digital_junkie/3703411842/
<JesseW> and it's under CC/By/2.0 -- shouldn't that be mentioned somewhere more easily available?
<JesseW> as it is, I can't seem to find *anywhere* that is mentioned, which is a technical violation of the license... (eep!)
<JesseW> and worse, the author's name is mis-spelled in the AUTHORs file... sigh, I guess I should probably file a bug... grumble, grumble... ;-)
<JesseW> so, where should I go to file a bug report about the mispelling in the AUTHORS file?
<vish> JesseW: in the package concerned
<vish> JesseW: also talk to kwwii
<JesseW> vish: OK.  It's the ubuntu-wallpapers package, I'll check in launchpad.
<JesseW> kwwii: I noticed that the author of the Climbing.jpg background has his name misspelled in the AUTHORS file, and furthermore that the license Climbing.jpg is under (CC-BY-2.0) isn't mentioned anywhere, including in the copyright file.
<JesseW> vish: how's that? ;-)
<troy_s> JesseW: Do you know how to provide a patch?
<troy_s> JesseW: It makes it helluva lot easier on whoever fixes it.
<JesseW> troy_s: I think so, although this is just a one line change to the AUTHORS file -- but I can provide a patch.
<troy_s> JesseW: bzr branch the package in question, fix the file, then bzr push it back to lp:~your-id/+junk/same-package-name
<troy_s> JesseW: Makes it deadly simple for someone to merge.
<JesseW> troy_s: nice.  I need to pratice my bzr wrangling skills.
<JesseW> so, I'm looking at https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-wallpapers trying to figure out what url to put in the "bzr branch" command...  suggestions?
<vish> JesseW: $bzr branch lp:ubuntu/karmic/ubuntu-wallpapers
<vish> JesseW: follow this >  https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-branches/ubuntu/karmic/ubuntu-wallpapers/karmic
<vish> since the wallpapers were only in Karmic and the other version *might* have other wallpapers
<vish> other newer* versions
<JesseW> vish: not ubuntu/ubuntu-wallpapers?
<JesseW> ok, I'll branch from that one instead.
<vish> JesseW: wallpapers for every release will vary
<JesseW> so, if I've already done bzr branch lp:ubuntu/ubuntu-wallpapers, what command should I do to change over to the other one?
<JesseW> i.e. can I reuse whatever is the same between them?
<JesseW> or should I just delete it and redownload the other one?
<vish> JesseW: re-downloading is simpler ;)
<JesseW> ok. ;-)  /me loves my fast university net connection...
<JesseW> I'm not exactly sure how to format the copyright info in the copyright file... It seems wrong, as it's missing some of the authors listed in the AUTHORS file, and claims that the only copyright is held by Canonical, rather than stating that the individual files are owned by the photographers, but I'm uncertain about the proper formatting...
<JesseW> per https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic#Copyright it looks like all of them should be listed, along with the licenses.  Now off to check if CC-BY-2.0 is in common-licenses...
<JesseW> nope, no CC licenses are, so it has to be included in full.  grumble...
<vish> JesseW: the copyright issues you need to consult kwwii  , if he isnt around you can try mailing him at the first @ubuntu.com email id listed here > https://launchpad.net/~kwwii
<JesseW> vish: well, he's in the channel, but I don't know if that means he's actually here...
<vish> JesseW: he is always logged in... so are most of the other users in the list.. doesnt mean they are around
 * JesseW nods
<JesseW> ok, I sent him an email.
<JesseW> ok, I've now pushed the patch to https://code.launchpad.net/~jesse-wefu/+junk/ubuntu-wallpapers per troy's suggestion
<JesseW> thanks all, and g'night!
<kwwii> vish: thanks for pointing JesseW int he right direction
<kwwii> we'll get that sorted asap
<kwwii> and with that, /me heads to airport to fly to london
<mrmcq2u> kwwii - have you testes the new murrine engine with the new rgba/client side windows stuff?
 * vish cant stop laughing!
<vish> mrmcq2u: one wrong letter and the whole meaning changes ;p
<vish> meaning of the word
<mrmcq2u> what word
<vish> "testes" ;)
<mrmcq2u> ?
<mrmcq2u> ah
<mrmcq2u> whoops
<mrmcq2u> *tested lol
<vish> mrmcq2u: BTW  , kwwii is probably on a plane now
<vish> [19:16] <kwwii> and with that, /me heads to airport to fly to london
<mrmcq2u> ah
<mrmcq2u> oh well
<mrmcq2u> better go make dinner for my dad so
<mrmcq2u> thanks for the heads up vish
<zniavre> does nautilus supports rgba now?
<vish> zniavre: several apps are using rbga , but all i did was turn the rbga on in murrine... so i havent actually figured out how rbga works .. if nautilus is using it also i might not know ;)
<zniavre> i saw some "rgba stuff" added in nautilus
<zniavre> im so sad i can't try lucid (vbox or real) anymore
<vish> zniavre: yeah , i think it has been added > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nautilus/+bug/491521
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 491521 in gtk+2.0 "Decorations and RGBA" [High,In progress]
<zniavre> i saw that too
<vish> the nautilus is marked as fix released
<vish> zniavre: how to use/enable the rgba?
<zniavre> in gtkrc ?
<zniavre> RGBA = TRUE
<vish> zniavre: i didnt set that...
<vish> anything else that needs to be done?
<vish>  <zniavre> im so sad i can't try lucid (vbox or real) anymore... why ?
<vish> s/didnt/ DID
<zniavre> my computer is  wasted
<vish> aw..
<mrmcq2u> zniavre - rgba/client side windows patch works again with nautilus
<mrmcq2u> it does not crash anymore
<zniavre> cool
<mrmcq2u> gstreamer apps seem to crash though
<mrmcq2u> anything with embedded gstreamer windows like totem or rhythmbox etc
<zniavre> ok
<mrmcq2u> I wanted to test rgba in murrine but support has only just been pushed up to git, because its slightly different than the rgba hack murrine used before
<mrmcq2u> http://git.gnome.org/browse/murrine/?h=ubuntu-lucid-rgba-support
<mrmcq2u> the problem is that murrine from git depends on a later version of gtk than the one included in the rgba csw ppa
<zniavre> wait and see
<zniavre> :o)
<vish> hmm , the notebook gets rgba
<mrmcq2u> but according to cimi when you enable rgba in the theme options all apps support transparency and not just ones which are patched
<vish> mrmcq2u: can we control the level of transparency?
<mrmcq2u> yes
<vish> how?
<mrmcq2u> you can control it on a theme level with murrine
<vish> i meant what is the variable/option that sets the level of transparency?
<mrmcq2u> and the plan is to enable app developers to control it themselves regardless of theme options
<zniavre> via src ?
<vish> oooooh, controlled in the apps themselves
<mrmcq2u> vish - I am not sure, I am not a theme designer but I know from cimi's first hacks that its possible to control that
<vish> k..
<mrmcq2u> yeah so you can set transparency only on one widget in an app or on several or different levels or no transparency at all.
<zniavre> i did not know you can set the translucidy level via gtkrc
<Equiet_> Are artwork requests already approved?
<thorwil> Equiet_: it's still being discussed, i'd say
<Equiet_> thorwil: Kenneth is the one who makes decisions?
<thorwil> Equiet_: he's the only one at Canonical that keeps talking with us. well, mat_t sometimes, too
<Equiet_> Ah...
<thorwil> Equiet_: so he's the main contact person and naturally has more authority than any community member. but he's not the leader of the design team
<Equiet_> And who is the leader?
<thorwil> Equiet_: Ivanka Majik. last decisions still from Mark Shuttleworth himself, afaik
<thorwil> good night!
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-03
<coz_> hey all
<thorwil> hi doctormo! i have one development branch and a packaging branch on lp. for the first rev of the packaging branch, the reference to the devel branch is clear.
<thorwil> but now, several devel revs later, easiest would be to copy the files i need to the packaging branch. but is there a way to associate the packaging rev with a devel rev, then?
<doctormo> thorwil: Hey
<doctormo> thorwil: I don't understand, could you explain some more about what you mean?
<thorwil> doctormo: oh, and happy new year! :)
<doctormo> thorwil: Prosit Neujahr
<thorwil> heh, excellent!
<thorwil> doctormo: see https://launchpad.net/backtestground
<thorwil> doctormo: i created a packaging branch and continued development in trunk
<thorwil> doctormo: for the 2nd release (1st wasn't announced due to an error in it), i want to update the relevant files in packaging
<doctormo> Interesting, is this similar to my genetic background wallpaper packaging?
<thorwil> doctormo: now i wonder if there's a way to let LP know that the changes in packaging come from a specfic trunk revision
<thorwil> doctormo: not at all
<thorwil> doctormo: just scripts for cropping/resizing images to wallpaper resolutions, for making screenshots with transparent desktop
<thorwil> and as addition a script that expects a screenshot with transparent desktop to crop/resize it, repeating parts of any panel found to fill gaps
<doctormo> thorwil: Interesting set of scripts, so, do you need me to review?
<thorwil> doctormo: thanks, i don't need a review, but wouldn't mind feedback :)
<doctormo> the bin/__init__.py is redundant,
<doctormo> The commands are a bit cryptic, and sizes might clobber some other package by mistake.
<thorwil> ah right, just there for local convenience, shouldn't have checked that in
<thorwil> doctormo: unique but not cryptic names are hard to come up with
<doctormo> YHAFK
<thorwil> huh?
<coz_> mm  "yhafk"  seems both unique and cryptic  :)
<doctormo> So perhaps 'background-crop' 'background-extract' and 'background-sizes'
<doctormo> It's an old one 'YHAFK' == You have a full keyboard.
<thorwil> heh
<coz_> :)
<doctormo> You can remove the sodipodi and inkscape namespaces from your svg template, they're not required.
<doctormo> 'as such' unless you want to take advantage of some editability in inkscape.
<thorwil> i vaguely recall that layers are not handled right in plain svg
<doctormo> thorwil: yep, layers are just groups, but you can keep that and not have the metadata, defs or sodipodi window frame guff.
 * thorwil writes todo
<doctormo> thorwil: In the svg generation, try using printf syntax like so: http://pastebin.ca/2037733
<thorwil> but of course! that really was a hack
<doctormo> Well I could claim printf is too since xml.minidom should be used instead ;-)
<thorwil> heh, sometimes treating xml as just text does make things simpler. at least if you start out having never messed with a structured xml representation
 * thorwil pushes cleaned up svg_generator.py
<thorwil> doctormo: oh, and thanks! :)
<doctormo> np
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-04
<coz_> hey all
<daker> vish, thorwil i am applying today ã
<thorwil> daker: membership? when and where is the meeting?
<daker> thorwil, today #ubuntu-meeting at 20:00 GMT/UTC
<daker> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Membership/RegionalBoards/EMEA
<thorwil> ok
<thorwil> i'll try to be there
<daker> ok thanks ã
<vish> daker: hey.. good luck. (i can't make it , it would be nearly 4 am for me :)
<vish> daker: i'v written the testimonial right?  i forgot the link..
<daker> vish, no worries ã https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdnaneBelmadiaf
<knome> hey kwwii :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-05
<coz_> hey all
<doctormo> hey coz_
<coz_> doctormo,  hey guy
<doctormo> Does anyone know where to find svg files for the logo submissions?
<doctormo> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/TeamLogoSubmissions
<coz_> hey all
<thorwil> ooh, colors! http://mothereffinghsl.com/
<knome> 39:)
<knome> emm, 38 :)
<thorwil> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Rule%2038
<thorwil> http://www.ncisfanwiki.com/page/NCIS%3A+Gibbs+Rules
<thorwil> http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/Rule38.htm
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-06
<em> Hi
<em> ar you guys responsible for making the icons and themes in Ubuntu?
<dashua> em, Development of the default wallpaper, GTK themes, and icon sets for Ubuntu are lead by the Canonical Design Team. Xubuntu, Edubuntu, Mythbuntu, Lubuntu and supported packages are open to contributions in these categories.
<em> Are those things also GPL ?
<dashua> Check here for some useful information -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<em> can other distros use the art work that is in Ubuntu?
<dashua> CCPL, I think?
<doctormo> thorwil: did you do the new spread ubuntu branding?
<doctormo> Trying to find the source images to do some linking.
<thorwil> doctormo: https://code.launchpad.net/~t-w-/+junk/spreadubuntu_art
<doctormo> tah
<thorwil> doctormo: np. link from where?
<doctormo> thorwil: The updated branding on http://ubuntu-artists.deviantart.com/
<doctormo> I want to link to both spread ubuntu and the art team
<doctormo> thorwil: you have so much art in +junk, I'm surprised you haven't made a special 'thorwil art space' project.
<thorwil> doctormo: it just happened. what would be the practical difference, anyway?
<doctormo> None, did you do any of the art team logos?
 * thorwil used to have lots of foobar_01.svg, foobar_02.svg ... until he saw troy using lp/bzr
<doctormo> I made groundcontrol to help artists and writers use bzr/lp
<doctormo> No many do though
<thorwil> doctormo: no. but i gently nudged saleel to the desired direction
<thorwil> it's the right idea, but personally, i'm quite comfortable with bzr on the cli
<doctormo> Ok there we go, added in links...
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-07
<leoquant> that was/is  a great howto "pgp and sign ther COC" ,via the screencast team, duanedesign. It shows the potential of the use of new media instead of wiki documentation.
<kwwii> moin moin
<thorwil> morning!
<coz_> thorwil,  good morning
<alessandro_> morning
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-08
<coz_> good day
<coz_> hey guys
<thorwil> ok buttons are dolt avoidance: http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Do_It.txt
<thorwil> since yesterday's update, my 10.10 here persists on using a specific non-ubuntu icon theme on the desktop (and only there, it seems)
<thorwil> anyone else seeing that or having a clue how this could be?
<evilvish> thorwil: what do you mean by non-specific ubuntu icon?
<evilvish> lol! "I'm not a dolt, why is the software calling me a dolt?"
<thorwil> evilvish: it might be the default gnome icon theme. some ugly slightly greenish stuff
<thorwil> anyway, the choice of icon theme in appearance settings and what i see on desktop is decoupled now :/
<evilvish> thorwil: well, if you are sure it was an update that did it.. you can roll back the update and see if that solves it.
<evilvish> or check the gconf keys if it is changing correctly when you switch the themes
<thorwil> the /desktop/gnome/interface/icon_theme key does change. as do the icons everywhere, except on the desktop
<thorwil> guess i will wait if this goes away in another session or after another update
#ubuntu-artwork 2011-01-09
<nuckleosn> http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6677/screenshot7s.png
<nuckleosn> good? ^-^
<coz_> good day
#ubuntu-artwork 2013-01-02
<aesof> Hey ya'll, im looking to maybe get involved in design
<aesof> Not many people here!...
<aesof> Wow, has this been dead?
#ubuntu-artwork 2013-01-05
<skillico> hello
<skillico> <- new
<skillico> would love to 'get involved', shout :)
#ubuntu-artwork 2016-01-07
<yahn> hi gents, is anyone alive?
<nyso> hi there
