#ubuntu-manual 2010-11-29
<ChrisWoollard> For your information -> O'Reilly Media
<ChrisWoollard> *Free to Choose* Deal/Day: Save 60% ALL ebooks & videos! Code DDF2H #CyberMonday http://oreil.ly/free2choose
<nisshh> aquarius, sorry, i forgot about the hack session we were going to do on monday, my bad, is now a good time?
<nisshh> im free for the next couple of hours
<aquarius> nisshh, heya, pal. Yeah, now's good
<nisshh> aquarius, cool, so have you created your chapter and pushed it to the branch?
<aquarius> nisshh, not yet, no; I only created something just to play around. I thought we'd talk about what should be in it
<nisshh> fair enough
<nisshh> aquarius, so what is in the sample app that uses desktopcouch?
<nisshh> thats what the chapter will be about, as well as a general introduction to couchdb itself i guess
<aquarius> nisshh, that's what I'm not sure about -- is there one sample app for the whole book, or is there just one for my chapter? (Sorry, I haven't kept up on this sort of thing.)
<nisshh> aquarius, look in the branch, there is a directory called sample-app or something similar, there is one sample app for the whole manual
<nisshh> the whole sample app is in there
<aquarius> k. It seems to be called "feed reader" :)
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> its supposed to be an identica client prettymuch
<aquarius> ok. At the moment it just fetches an RSS feed and displays the contents in a DictionaryGrid
<nisshh> yeah
<aquarius> what else is it planned to do? :)
<nisshh> i think thats as far as Rick got when he was creating it
<aquarius> oh. heh :)
<aquarius> also, uses BeautifulSoup for parsing xml. ouch. Still, that's not what we're working on :)
<nisshh> yeah
<aquarius> what else should we do? I mean, I don't want to do anything to do with posting to identica or anything, because the way you should do that (as part of the platform!) is to use libgwibber.
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> aquarius, Rick keeps telling me he wants to re write the whole sample app, but he hasnt told me what he wants to change/improve etc, so i dont know what part will use desktopcouch, etc
<aquarius> then it is difficult to know what I should write about :)
<aquarius> so, let's leave that aside for now, and talk about section headings
<nisshh> yep
<aquarius> my inclination is to write about the following things: what desktopcouch is, what benefits it provides over other storage approaches, how it ties into Ubuntu One; how to createa  database, store things in it, read things from it; how to query your desktopcouch data store; how to view the data in it for debugging; some thoughts on the sort of data you should or should not store therein; pointers to external re
<aquarius> sources.
<nisshh> that sounds good
<nisshh> aquarius, thats just about the perfect order to put it all in too
<aquarius> that's what I thought. :)
<aquarius> and obviously once I know what the sample app is going to be, I'll illustrate that with examples taken from the sample app.
<nisshh> aquarius, well, the idea is that the manual is used to teach the reader how to create a working copy of the sample app
<aquarius> *nod* absolutely
<aquarius> but I can't illustrate examples from the sample app if I don't know what the sample app is going to do. Need to talk to rickspencer3 once he gets here, I suppose
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> we also want the user to learn by doing, not by just copy/pasting
<nisshh> so encouragement to experiment and add things is a big plus
<nisshh> aquarius, are you able to hang around till rick joins? so we can discuss this together?
<aquarius> sure thing
<nisshh> cool
<nisshh> is he travelling or something though, i havent seen him on IRC for a couple of days now
<nisshh> hopefully he will be on in the next couple of hours
<nisshh> aquarius, rick's here
<nisshh> rickspencer3, whats the deal with the sample app currently? you mentioned a while ago you wanted to redo it completely
<rickspencer3> nisshh, I don't know that i want to redo it completely, since there's hardly any code for it
<rickspencer3> what's up?
<nisshh> well, aquarius is just sorting out his chapter and what is in it, he doesnt know what part of the sample app will be using desktopcouch
<nisshh> hence, he cant write that part of his chapter
<aquarius> rickspencer3, essentially, I can decide to add some new stuff to the sample app which uses DC, but I don't know what more you want to do with the sample app than what it already does
<rickspencer3> aquarius, I don't really know either
<aquarius> :)
<rickspencer3> I guess you could just store some configuration data or something?
<aquarius> right, if you don't have a specific plan, then I'll do something appropriate. No worries.
<rickspencer3> cool
<nisshh> excellent
<aquarius> nisshh, so, we need to talk about what else the sample app will do in other chapters. At the moment there's nothing in the app for desktopcouch to do, because the app hardcodes one specific identica feed and displays it in a window. Don't need configuration or storage for that ;) So, what are other people planning to do to it?
<nisshh> aquarius, well, there is an indicator applets chapter
<nisshh> pretty self explanitory what that does
<aquarius> ah, so that'll integrate the sample app into the Messaging Menu?
<nisshh> jono was going to write a gstreamer chapter, but he no longer has time
<aquarius> again, doesn't really need storage or configuration.
<nisshh> yeah, either the messaging menu or on its own
<nisshh> aquarius, maybe the sample app could have to ability to fetch and display multiple peoples timelines, and the URL's could be stored in couchdb?
<nisshh> im not sure how efficient that would be though, tbh
<nisshh> and im not sure if libgwibber has support for that yet
<aquarius> nisshh, sure, although...then it's a general identica reader. Which is what gwibber is for, and that's part of the platform :) I'm not brilliantly keen on duplicating what libgwibber does.
<nisshh> aquarius, well, this is not necessarily for the user to release into the wild, just for them to learn, maybe we should say that in the manual?
<aquarius> nisshh, oh, agreed, but having our manual which says "use the platform: here, look, here is a sample app which doesn't use the platform but instead reimplements some of it, so you can learn" is a pretty mixed message ;)
<nisshh> true :)
<aquarius> I'm thinking about, perhaps, remembering which items you've read, which items you've expanded, something like that
<nisshh> so an RSS reader? not an identica reader?
<nisshh> aquarius, ^^^
<aquarius> not sure. At the moment, the items are all wider than the window; I was wondering about expanding an individual item to be larger which would show details of the user who posted it, something like that
<aquarius> but I don't think I like that idea
<aquarius> at the moment it *is* an rss reader, it just happens to be reading a feed from identica ;)
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> thats true
<nisshh> aquarius, i think have a general feed reader and use your idea of having it remember unread/read/expanded, etc, using couchdb
<nisshh> sounds like a good idea, but is it doable?
<aquarius> depends on what you mean by doable
<aquarius> to make this a general feed reader, we need to maintain the list of feeds (fine to do in DC), and allow people to edit that list (which requires UI)
<nisshh> aquarius, well, is it a reasonable use case of desktopcouch? is it simple enough for a new developer to understand? will the code be clean or will it be all hacky?
<nisshh> yeah
<aquarius> storing your list of feeds in DC is a fine use of desktopcouch -- your list of subscriptions then follows you around
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> that should be pretty simple to do actually
<nisshh> aquarius, so are you happy to do that?
<nisshh> although, i dont have a use for gstreamer in the sample app :)
<aquarius> well, I am, but I don't know that I'll have time to write up those changes in other chapters
<nisshh> which changes in other apps?
<nisshh> chapters*
<aquarius> well, if I change the UI, for example, do other already-written chapters have screenshots of the UI? Or snippets of code from the sample app which I'll now be altering?
<nisshh> aquarius, there are no screenshots in the manual yet, although the code might have to be changed a bit in other chapters
<aquarius> yeah. that's what I don't think I'll have time to do
<nisshh> aquarius, i tell you what, if your happy to change the code relating to your chapter, i will change any other required code
<aquarius> altering the sample app, adding DC support to remember the feed list and other things, and writing the DC chapter
<aquarius> ah, ok, cool :)
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> if you do that, ill do any code changes needed in other chapters
<nisshh> none of the other chapters are actually finished yet
<nisshh> all the code needs bringing in line with the sample app, currently its all just generic examples
<nisshh> godbyk, ping
<nisshh> aquarius, even if you just write bits of the chapter whenever you have small amounts of free time, that would be enough so that most of the chapter would be there by release time
<nisshh> or even sooner if we work hard :)
<aquarius> *nod*
<aquarius> what's "release time"?
<aquarius> Thursday?
<nisshh> lol, nope
<nisshh> i think that alpha1 snapshot was too optimistic
<nisshh> :)
<aquarius> i thought it was, too, but I didn't want to piss on your bonfire :)
<nisshh> no, no, you were right
<nisshh> i prefer people to be honest with me and just say what they think rather than "not piss on my bonfire" :)
<nisshh> aquarius, so, roughly a month or so before natty's release there will be a string freeze where no content can be changed, this is so translators dont constantly get their translations disappearing :)
<nisshh> and then hopefully the manual will get released around natty final release
<aquarius> :)
 * aquarius laughs
<nisshh> and about a week or two before string freeze i want to get as many eyes on the manual as possible so we can catch formatting and grammer bugs, style issues, etc
<nisshh> hehe
<aquarius> I shall try and tell you in future, then, but I avoid telling people how to run their project ;)
<nisshh> hehe
<aquarius> so I've got a little while. If I don't have at least a provisional version of the chapter written by, let's say, middle of next week, then moan at me? I should have something by then.
<nisshh> aquarius, its not "my" project its "our" project :)
<aquarius> you're the boss, boss. :)
<nisshh> aquarius, well, natty final release is end of next april right? so string freeze will be end of march or so, as long as you have a good draft by next february ill be happy :)
<nisshh> haha
<nisshh> aquarius, i welcome any suggestions people may have to help me run the project better :)
<aquarius> the way to get me to do something is emphatically not to say "you have three months to do it in". Next week. I am not good with long deadlines ;)
<nisshh> i see
<nisshh> hehe
<nisshh> aquarius, ok, you have 3 hours :)
<aquarius> ha!
<nisshh> i think im getting the hang of this :)
<aquarius> I admire your management technique, but not your understanding of my workload. Some sort of middle ground ;)
<nisshh> aquarius, i guess as long as im seeing progress :)
<nisshh> well thats just it, i have no idea what your workload is like, you see, so i have to just account for a large workload, like so many of you guys have :)
<nisshh> which is why i started off with a long deadline
<nisshh> aquarius, so, yeah, next week, rough draft of most of the chapter would be good :)
<nisshh> i will start bugging you about this time next week if i havent seen anything new in the branch though :)
<aquarius> that's perfecr
<aquarius> I need a progress chaser for stuff like this. Well volunteered ;)
<nisshh> cool
<nisshh> aquarius, im not exactly experienced at running a project, but i realise now that chasing things up and making sure they get done is a big part of it :)
<aquarius> it's damned nearly the only part of it, but don't tell anyone I said that. :P
<nisshh> haha
<nisshh> aquarius, ping me anytime if you have any issues
<nisshh> (with the manual)
<aquarius> cheers, pal
<nisshh> :)
<ChrisWoollard> nisshh: godbyk messaged me earlier. He is around later and I will talk to him about the font issues then.
<ChrisWoollard> was there anything else that you needed from him while i have got him?
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard, nah, thats why i pinged him, thanks dude :)
<ChrisWoollard> he is around later so. hopefully we can sort it
<ChrisWoollard> have you thought of coverpages?
<ChrisWoollard> I am going out for a while. catch you later.
<godbyk> Hey, nisshh.  Still around?
<nisshh> godbyk, yep
<nisshh> godbyk, whats up?
<godbyk> I just got back from holiday (Thanksgiving).
<godbyk> Then I had meetings this morning.
<nisshh> fair enough
<godbyk> Now I can finally get back to real work again. :-)
<nisshh> hehe
<godbyk> Were you wanting to pester me about the font stuff in the dev guide?
<nisshh> not pester :)
<nisshh> i was just going to ask you if you knew WHY it was happening and what we can do to fix it/work around it
<nisshh> i realise it must the Ubuntu font, but im not sure why it doesnt display special characters correctly
<godbyk> Regarding bug 682057, it's because the \then command tries to print a Unicode character that doesn't (yet) exist in the Ubuntu fonts.
<manualbot> Launchpad bug 682057 in ubuntu-developer-manual "Characters not supported by the Ubuntu Font." [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/682057
<nisshh> i see
<nisshh> so i guess we just have to wait till these missing unicode characters get added to the font?
<nisshh> godbyk, ^^^
<godbyk> It tries to print â£ (U+2023), but that character doesn't exist in the Ubuntu font.
<godbyk> There are a few workarounds available.
<nisshh> cool
<godbyk> 1. Print that character from a different font.  (Easy enough to do.)
<godbyk> 2. Pick a different font for the text.  (I don't think Ubuntu looks terribly good for the text font in this case, frankly.)
<dutchie> use a different character?
<godbyk> You could use a different character within the Ubuntu font, too, if an appropriate one were availab.e
<godbyk> available, rather.
<dutchie> does it have  â ?
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> dutchie, oh, urgh, not that arrow character, that looks so ugly :)
<godbyk> dutchie only picked that one because it gives him an excuse to use the compose key. ;-)
<nisshh> haha
<dutchie> godbyk: maybe ;)
<dutchie> discovered a fun new character you can do with compose the other day
<nisshh> godbyk, tbh, i think its the way evince renders the PDF that makes the Ubuntu font look crap
<dutchie> â­
<nisshh> its a bit blurry
<dutchie> there's always â½ too
<nisshh> dutchie, lol, that is a strange symbol :)
<Omega> Hah, dutchie, I wasn't expecting that in this channel.
<dutchie> Omega: compose CCCP (make sure it's capitals)
<nisshh> wow, everyone is awake tonight :)
<Omega> I'm in an anarchy channel.
<Omega> And I was just about to switch to it
<Omega> And I saw your hammer and sickle
<godbyk> Is there a cool way to define new compose-key combinations?
<godbyk> ('cool' meaning 'doesn't require godbyk to recompile things')
<nisshh> godbyk, anyway, could we get back to the bug? :)
<dutchie> godbyk: pretty sure there is
<dutchie> ~/.xmodmap or some such
<nisshh> oh god, i HATE that file with a vengeance :)
<nisshh> godbyk, regarding the options you gave me before, shall we try number 1?
<godbyk> nisshh: We can, yes.
<godbyk> Let me give it a shot real quick.
<nisshh> dutchie, its very strange, i have a logitech G15 keyboard right, .xmodmap breaks my keyboard and stops it from working at all, g15-tools makes it work a bit better but disables the extra G keys and just default setup works fine except for the M keys and the LCD :)
<dutchie> handy :)
<nisshh> i will never win with this i swear :)
<dutchie> i wonder if that's the same one the guy from #ubuntu-uk was writing drivers for
<nisshh> possibly, although there is the G19 and G11 as well
<nisshh> G19 being the newest
<dutchie> 18:52:59 < Azelphur> the Logitech G19
<dutchie> 18:53:05 < Azelphur> and other G-Series devices
<godbyk> nisshh: that works for now. I'll commit the change real quick.
<nisshh> dutchie, cool
<nisshh> godbyk, cheers
<dutchie> nisshh: and btw, it's not Azelphur writing it, but ali1234
<nisshh> yeah, i dont know who that is though :)
<dutchie> Azelphur was doing some front-end or something
<dutchie> nisshh: just so you don't go annoying the wrong guy :)
<nisshh> dutchie, unless it works 100% ill stick with default setup :)
<godbyk> nisshh: Committed as r21.
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> godbyk, cool
<nisshh> godbyk, yeah, it looks awesome :)
<godbyk> Well, not awesome, but ever-so-slightly-better than before. :-)
<nisshh> haha
<nisshh> godbyk, well, i still think its evince that is rendering the font badly, the Ubuntu font on my desktop is super sharp
<godbyk> Will a lot more material be going into the manual?
<godbyk> Different types of material?
<nisshh> yes to your first question, not sure what you mean by different types
<nisshh> we have 2-3 chapters to add in still
<godbyk> I think Ubuntu is fine as a UI font; it just doesn't look very good as a book font, in my opinion.
<nisshh> i agree somewhat
<godbyk> Different types: body text, code listings, captions, side notes, ... Anything that isn't already provided for by the current manual style?
<nisshh> godbyk, we hired a technical writer (well, canonical did) to oversee the editing of the manual and developer.ubuntu.com :)
<godbyk> Wow!
<nisshh> she starts tomorrow and is helping us till march next year :)
<nisshh> freaking awesome :)
<nisshh> godbyk, there are a few minor things, like i wish it didnt indent the start of each paragraph, makes it look terrible
<godbyk> Okay.
<nisshh> and the code font looks WAY too similar to the Ubuntu font
<nisshh> it needs to look more different, so the reader can easily tell the difference
<godbyk> I'd like to have a good idea of what kind of content will be needed (and some samples to work with) so I can work on the design of the book.
<godbyk> I agree.
<nisshh> godbyk, well, the consensus among the team is to go with the new Ubuntu branding colors
<godbyk> 'kay.
<nisshh> and we havent discussed the cover page yet
<godbyk> I'll be updating our manual with the Ubuntu colors, too, when I get time to test them in print.
<nisshh> cool, maybe you can do both manuals colors then?
<godbyk> You should sic thorwil on the cover page.  He always comes up with amazing stuff.
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> i already did
<godbyk> Do you guys have a meeting at some point? Maybe I can stop in and chat with you about the book design. See what you guys had in mind.
<nisshh> he said just come back to him with any images and a description of the look i want and he will knock one up
<godbyk> Sweet.
<nisshh> godbyk, we were trying to organize a sprint somewhere, but that wont happen now :)
<nisshh> we will probably have a meeting sometime soon
<godbyk> Well, I just meant an irc meeting.
<godbyk> :)
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> i think we are all having a skype call with the tech editor later this week
<nisshh> so maybe then would be a good idea
<nisshh> godbyk, ill let you know when something comes up :)
<godbyk> cool.
<godbyk> nisshh: are you guys planning on releasing this with natty? or sooner than that?  (what's your timeline?)
<nisshh> godbyk, yeah, with natty
<nisshh> writing freexe in march most likely
<nisshh> freeze*
<godbyk> Okay.
<nisshh> i think we are making good progress, i am pushing everyone hard and chasing up all the loose ends :()
<nisshh> i only have another two chapters to sort out now :)
<nisshh> oh, plus jenkins chapters
<godbyk> I'd like to use the listings package for the code listings. It'll make things look nicer.
<nisshh> godbyk, listings package?
<godbyk> The downside is that there was a nasty bug between it and polyglossia/babel last I looked.
<godbyk> nisshh: http://tug.ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/latex/contrib/listings/listings.pdf
<godbyk> It adds things like line numbering.
<godbyk> And syntax highlighting.
<nisshh> very nice
<nisshh> that would be awesome
<nisshh> godbyk, because then we could say things like "see line x in the following example:"
<nisshh> instead of "see the fourth line from the bottom in the following example:"
<nisshh> and the syntax highlighting would make it so much more readable
<godbyk> nisshh: precisely.
<nisshh> yeah
<nisshh> godbyk, remember those tables i wanted to turn into columned lists a while ago? well, they arent displaying properly still :)
<godbyk> nisshh: can you give me a page number?
<nisshh> godbyk, hmm, one sec
<nisshh> godbyk, pages 7 & 8
<godbyk> nisshh: Ah, I see.. Where it's centering the first columns on the page?
<nisshh> yeah, and it indents the last column too
<nisshh> godbyk, anyway dude, i need to get some sleep, if you fix the issue, just commit it to trunk and ill see it in the morning :)
<godbyk> nisshh: I'll see what I can do.  G'night!
<nisshh> gnight, thanks godbyk :)
 * nisshh is sleeping now :)
#ubuntu-manual 2010-12-01
<ChrisWoollard> Ooooo, A mail from Canonical about this project..
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard, oh? what does it say?
<ChrisWoollard> Hi all,
<ChrisWoollard>   I'm Belinda Lopez (Dinda) from Canonical.  I've played lots of role in Canonical and Ubuntu and am now assigned to help move this project forward.  It looks like there is lots of great work to build on so I'm taking a few days to round it all up and get a good idea of any missing pieces.  I'm really excited about this project as it's really important to Ubuntu and hope my experience in training development, writing, editing
<ChrisWoollard> and project management will help us create an awesome manual.
<ChrisWoollard> Rick asked if we could have a conference call this week to help kickstart everything and it looks like Friday 17:00 UTC will work best.  This would be a conference call (ideally) but if we can't get a large enough quorum, them we can revert to IRC.  The agenda would include:
<ChrisWoollard> Quick review of where everything stands in the project:
<ChrisWoollard> Resources
<ChrisWoollard> Tools
<ChrisWoollard> Authors
<ChrisWoollard> Project Schedule
<ChrisWoollard> Work flow review
<ChrisWoollard> Any other issues?
<ChrisWoollard> Let me know if that time works for folks or if you have other suggestions.
<ChrisWoollard> thanks everyone!
<ChrisWoollard> Dinda
<ChrisWoollard> that is what it says
<ChrisWoollard> What do you think?
<ChrisWoollard> Nissh: What was about the dev manual
<daker> ChrisWoollard, hi
<ChrisWoollard> hello
<daker> ChrisWoollard, the only issue i have is the hosting
<ChrisWoollard> hosting?
<daker> the website hosting
<ChrisWoollard> can you elaborate
<ChrisWoollard> Are we talking about the dev manual website or the ubuntu manual website.
<daker> the ubuntu manual website
<daker> actualy the new version of the website needs a new hosting :)
<ChrisWoollard> I actually don't know anything about the current hosting. Is that something that ben dealt with?
<daker> well godbyk who's hosting the actual website (which is in php), when trying to deploy a staging server for the new website, he wasn't able to do it due to python version confilct
<ChrisWoollard> So, we need a new hosting. What are the requirements?
<ChrisWoollard> Dakar, Was it yourself that developed the site?
<daker> yes
<daker> the requirement : Django hosting + good bandwith
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard, oh, yeah, i just talked to dinda about the dev manual :)
<ChrisWoollard> Dakar, can you mail me the requirements and I will have a look into it.
<daker> ChrisWoollard, ok
<ChrisWoollard> Nisshh: Should I take part in that conference?
<ChrisWoollard> back in a few mins.
<daker> ChrisWoollard, nisshh why she didn't contact the ML ?
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard, if you like, yeah
<nisshh> daker, ChrisWoollard is talking about the dev manual, not the desktop manual
<nisshh> the email was sent to the dev manuals mailing list
<daker> nisshh, ok i thought he was talking about the desktop manual
<nisshh> daker, he was talking about the dev manual when he was copy/pasting that email, but the website stuff is about the desktop manual
<daker> brb
<nisshh> ok
<ChrisWoollard> sounds like there is an issue for the ubuntu manual also
<ChrisWoollard> website that is
<ChrisWoollard> I am quite happy to look into hosting for the ubuntu manual website.
<daker> well ChrisWoollard we should confirm we dutchie if he is able to do it or not
<ChrisWoollard> I take it that dutchie is the one currently responsible for the hosting.
<dutchie> er
<dutchie> no
<dutchie> it's mostly on godbyk's server
<ChrisWoollard> ok
<dutchie> apart from the django stuff, which is on mine
<ChrisWoollard> maybe i'll ask godbyk what he thinks
<godbyk> Hey, ChrisWoollard. I just got home.  It's cold outside!
#ubuntu-manual 2010-12-02
<ChrisWoollard> hello
<cdbs> Did you people get a mail from Belinda?
<cdbs> I didn't
<cassidyjames> cdbs, http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/12/01/%23ubuntu-manual.html
<cdbs> oh!
<cdbs> but it didn't come on the list...
<cdbs> and I didn't get it
<cassidyjames> Looks like it was direct to ChrisWoollard.
<cassidyjames> And maybe others.
<thorwil> godbyk: you got that mail from dinda?
<daker> thorwil, cdbs it's about the ubuntu dev manual not the desktop manual
<cdbs> oh
<thorwil> ah, ok
<daker> thorwil, https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-developer-manual/msg00047.html
<daker> sadness!!
<nisshh> daker, why is it sad?
<nisshh> daker, do you think its bad because a canonical employee is being paid to work on the dev manual?
<daker> nisshh, no ã
<nisshh> daker, so why is it sad? (sorry, i just dont understand why you said that)
<daker> i have this feeling ã
<daker> just because the project is going from worse to worst
<nisshh> daker, dont be like that, the project will not die :)
<daker> i hope
<nisshh> we have the people working on it who dont want it to die ;)
<daker> having people to work on something doesn't mean this thing will be done ã
<nisshh> daker, true, but i think we will get things going well again soon :)
<daker> ok i'll trust you
<nisshh> haha
<nisshh> daker, dont put your trust in me, put it in the whole manual team :)
<daker> \o/
<hannie> godbyk, ping
<hannie> Godbyk, ping
<hannie> Hi Chris
<ChrisWoollard> Hello
<hannie> Do you know if Kevin is on holiday?
<nisshh> hannie, he isnt, i was talking to him yesterday
<ChrisWoollard> He was around yesterday.
<hannie> ok, then he is just too busy to answer my emais
<hannie> *emails
<ChrisWoollard> I think yesterday he got home from work at approx 23:15 UTC
<hannie> That is crazy
<hannie> I will just have to be patient
<ChrisWoollard> but he is about 5/6 hours behind
<hannie> 7 to be precise
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<hannie> I wanted to know of the Dutch pdf is about to be published
<hannie> *if
<ChrisWoollard> I haven't heard anything about how fare he has got with that.
<ChrisWoollard> If i see him later, I'll remind him to mail you.
<hannie> Thank you, Chris
<hannie> I do not want to put any pressure on him
<hannie> Do we have a new leader?
<nisshh> hannie, its ok, godbyk loves it :)
<hannie> Aha
<nisshh> hannie, i think c7p was taking charge at one point, im no sure now ;)
<nisshh> not*
<ChrisWoollard> I am note sure about a leader
<hannie> He certainly stirred up things
<hannie> I hope the project will continue
<ChrisWoollard> thanks nisshh
<nisshh> :)
<ChrisWoollard> I know i don't want it to die.
<hannie> See you, guys
<ChrisWoollard> tot ziens
<ChrisWoollard> :)
<hannie> :)
<ChrisWoollard> nisshh, I will do my best to go to that meeting tomorrow.
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard, sure, but dont stress out if you miss it, its not super duper important tha everyone comes :)
<nisshh> that*
<ChrisWoollard> i know.
<ChrisWoollard> but it does help to know what is going on
<ChrisWoollard> That is also why I said I will try my best, rather than saying I will come or i promise to come :)
<nisshh> yeah, fair enough
<ChrisWoollard> anyway. back later. I have to go to one of my childrens parents evening.
<nisshh> ok, cya
<ChrisWoollard> evening all
<nisshh> dinda, feel free to ping me if you have any more questions, im just watching a movie here
<dinda> nisshh: thanks, just going through the style guide right now
<ChrisWoollard> dinda: Are you going to have tomorrows meeting here?
<dinda> ChrisWoollard: #quickly  most likely
<ChrisWoollard> Thanks. I assume there will me an e-mail to confirm.
<godbyk> [Time to catch up..]
<godbyk> thorwil: Yeah, I got the email from dinda.
<godbyk> Looks like hannie's offline now, but I haven't done anything with the Dutch manual yet.
<godbyk> Hey, dinda. If you're referring to the style guide mentioned in the topic for this channel, it consists primarily of techie stuff at the moment.
<godbyk> I wrote it to get folks up to speed on the formatting commands we're using for the Ubuntu manual.
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: Can you mail Hannie and tell him you haven't done anything yet.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Re: The ubuntu-manual.org site: I'm currently hosting it. But the new version that daker has written requires Django and I'm having a tough time getting it running on my host.
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Yep, I'll get in touch with hannie.
<ChrisWoollard> So should we be looking for another host for it then?
<godbyk> At one point I think dutchie offered to host the Django site. I'm not sure if that offer's still on the table or not.
<godbyk> I offered to continue to host the static files (PDFs, images, etc.) since I have ostensibly unlimited bandwidth.
<godbyk> I may also create a separate user account on my host and give Django another shot there.  But that won't happen until this weekend at least.
<ChrisWoollard> What kind of bandwidth do we use?
<ChrisWoollard> And how big is the site?
<godbyk> My hosting provider gives me essentially unlimited bandwidth and disk space (under certain conditions, of course), but they like to kill processor-intensive processes, so I don't know how well a Django site would fare.
<godbyk> Let me look.
<ChrisWoollard> I guess we should check with dutchie.
<ChrisWoollard> about django bit
<ChrisWoollard> but it doesn't hurt to have the numbers, just in case
<dinda> godbyk:  do you know if ubuntu still includes the 2007 Tex version?  do I still need to 2009 manually?
<ChrisWoollard> 10.10 has 2009
<godbyk> files.ubuntu-manual.org (which hosts the PDFs of the manuals) used 84,336 MB of bandwidth during the month of November 2010.
<godbyk> The current ubuntu-manual.org site itself used 5269 MB during the same period.
<godbyk> dinda: Ubuntu 10.10 does have TeX Live 2009, but it's missing a few LaTeX packages (and has some outdated versions of others).
<godbyk> You're welcome to give it a try (I haven't in quite a while, so I don't know if it's up to par or not).  But I've found it's easier to just install TeX Live from upstream.
<dinda> godbyk: I'm assuming (hoping) that for writing, formatting, etc followed the regular documentation team style guide?
<godbyk> (For what it's worth, upstream is up to TeX Live 2010 now. They released it a couple months ago.)
<godbyk> dinda: I don't know that anyone's followed any particular style guide with regard to language use, etc.
<ChrisWoollard> i think for the developer manual they got it working with texlive from the package tree.
<godbyk> dinda: I've been meaning to incorporate a lot of that into our style guide but haven't had the time.
<godbyk> The GNOME documentation team has a great style guide as well.
<godbyk> (I've found it to be more helpful than the Ubuntu doc team's style guide, frankly.)
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Did they? Great!
<ChrisWoollard> I think they striped out some of manuals additional bits
<ChrisWoollard> there is a script in the branch to install all what is needed
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: As I recall, the primary issues were that required a newer version of XeTeX so that polyglossia would work properly (for translations), and that the ccicons package was missing (which just provided the Creative Commons icons used on the copyright page).
<ChrisWoollard> i know they removed the refs to ccicons
<godbyk> Ah, I see that now.
<ChrisWoollard> I am not sure what was gone with polyglossia
<godbyk> I think polyglossia required a newer version of XeTeX.  I'm sure the TL2009 packages have that.
<ChrisWoollard> I haven't tested there install script. I am using texlive 2010
<ChrisWoollard> s/there/their
<ChrisWoollard> I did update it the other day to include the currect fonts
<godbyk> Writing the English version is easy. It's the translations that add a lot of the complexity. :)
<ChrisWoollard> dinda: Is there any plan to do international versions of the dev manual?
<dinda> ChrisWoollard: all the work is CC-by-SA so anyone can do that bit if they like.  .
<dinda> but it can't be a blocker to get the first edition out
<dinda> ChrisWoollard: do you recommend the 2010 version?
<cassidyjames> Hey everyone, I updated the article on Muktware from yesterday to better clarify things. Sorry for the mis-interpretation! And thanks for pointing it out, popey. :)
<godbyk> dinda: If you do decide to install TL2010 from upstream, be sure to go into the options menu and enable the creation of symbolic links (symlinks) during installation.
<dinda> godbyk: I think I'm going to start with the 2009 version and see if it works for what I need
<dinda> godbyk: are you still working on updating the manual style guide?
<godbyk> dinda: Sounds like a plan.  Please let me know if you encounter any problems using the stock 2009 packages.
<godbyk> dinda: I haven't for quite a while, but it really does need to be updated considerably.
<godbyk> The style guide grew out of a 'how to use LaTeX' tutorial for our authors.
<godbyk> But it should really encompass usage, spelling, a discussion of common grammatical errors, etc., too.
<godbyk> Especially with regard to the words used in describing parts of the Ubuntu/GNOME desktop.
<dinda> godbyk: other than the bits about How 2 for authors - why not just reference the GNOME SG?
<nisshh> godbyk, there are specific things to do with the dev manual too, (programming terminology, etc)
<nisshh> jenkins, hey dude, why are you using the freenode web interface?
<godbyk> dinda: I will probably do that. I need to review the Ubuntu docs and GNOME style guides to see if there's anything we disagree on, but they're otherwise great sources.
<ChrisWoollard> nisshh: there is nothing wrong with 2009, it works for everything we need.
<jenkins> hey all, nisshh my laptop is still broken :(
<ChrisWoollard> it is just that instuctions on the ubuntu-manual site now download 2010 instead of 2009
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard, i was talking about the style guide, not tex live :)
<nisshh> jenkins, ah ok
<nisshh> jenkins, need to talk to you about your dev manual chapters sometime too
<ChrisWoollard> sorry, it think dinda asked that question.
<nisshh> ChrisWoollard, hehe
<dinda> ChrisWoollard: yip, twas me, thanks
<jenkins> yea nisshh I don't have an ubuntu box at the moment this is my work laptop
<nisshh> jenkins, yeah, thats fine, whenever your all sorted out, im just letting you know
<jenkins> It may be a while, depends on what i decide to get.
<nisshh> jenkins, ok, if you dont think you will be able to get a draft of all your chapters done in the next month or two, please let me know so i can get others to work on them :)
<jenkins> I don't think i will a am afraid
<jenkins> the only other scout leader has left and that is taking up loads of my time
<dinda> nisshh: which version of English was the manual written to?
<godbyk> dinda: I know that the Ubuntu manual and the Ubuntu docs are written in US English.
<godbyk> dinda: Not sure about the dev guide, though.
<dinda> godbyk: that's good enough for me;  US English is fine
<godbyk> dinda: In the Ubuntu manual project, I think that, as an American, I'm outnumbered, though.
<godbyk> (Yay, commas!)
<dinda> godbyk: yeah, I'm so used to writing UK English that I have to remember to reset my dictionaries to US English all the time (I'm from Texas)
<godbyk> For some reason Empathy is stuck on UK English.
<godbyk> Its spell-checker has a host of other issues, too, though.
<godbyk> But it still causes me to question my sanity upon occasion.
<ChrisWoollard> I love UK English.
<ChrisWoollard> I may be slightly biased
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: It has its charm. ;-)
<ChrisWoollard> I am sure it has some annoyances also
<ChrisWoollard> godbyk: my nice new Latex book should arrive tomorrow
<ChrisWoollard> as per your suggestion
<godbyk> ChrisWoollard: Ah, cool.  That'll keep you busy for a while!
<ChrisWoollard> more than likely
<dutchie> the offer of hosting is still on the table, but university is leaving me with no time to sort it
<dutchie> term finishes this saturday though
#ubuntu-manual 2010-12-03
<fwolff> Hi. I'm trying to use quickshot a bit. Is this the right place for discussions of quickshot?
<fwolff> I'd like to just quickly try it out, but don't have a .qsproj file, so just wondering what the easiest way is to get going quickly
<ChrisWoollard> My Latex book has arrived.
<ChrisWoollard> yay
<popey> anyone interested in helping with the developer manual, conf call in 45 mins
<popey> https://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-developer-manual/msg00050.html
<c7p> hello all
<c7p> ChrisWoollard: how is it going ?
<ChrisWoollard> i am in a conference at the mo
<c7p> oop sorry
<ChrisWoollard> don't worry
<c7p> ping me when you are available
#ubuntu-manual 2011-11-28
<CrustyBarnacle> Just pushed revision 108. Index review/feedback appreciated :-)
#ubuntu-manual 2012-11-26
<hannie> hi CarstenG
<hannie> Can I ask you 2 questions?
<CarstenG> Hi Hannie
<CarstenG> Yes, sure.
<hannie> Hey, ok, here is question one
<hannie> I have a screenshot conflict with figures:
<hannie> 3.33 and 3.34
<CarstenG> where are you?
<hannie> 3.33 was a marginschreenshot, but the accompanying text is now mixed with the one from 3.34
<CarstenG> precise-e2?
<hannie> yes, precise-e2
<hannie> I have temporarily changed marginscreenshot to screenshot
<hannie> This works, but the picture is no longer in the margin, of course
<hannie> I think this happened after I made 3.34 smaller
<CarstenG> one moment, I generate the pdf...
<hannie> I hope you see it too, I still have to upload my latest nl.po
<CarstenG> Yes, I see it.
<hannie> any suggestions how to fix this, except making it a screenshot?
<CarstenG> It looks like the position of 3.34 is moved upwards in the document...
<CarstenG> in the en version it looks better.
<CarstenG> do you have the screenshot command at the right place?
<hannie> Yes, I tried to move the whole string up, but that was a disaster
<hannie> Answer to your question: it is the same stringnumber as the English one
<hannie> I translate the msgid in the same msgstr
<hannie> You do not need to come with a solution right now. I will send you an email.
<hannie> Question nr 2: I get an error now when I generate the pdf. This is due to the title page not found. But I wonder if that is the only error.
<CarstenG> No, if the right title page is not found, the english one is used instead.
<CarstenG> so there is probably another error.
<hannie> It always says 1 error, but there can be more
<hannie> I just do not see an error in figures 3.33 and 3.34
<hannie> What I'll do is this: I will send my latest nl.po to LP. You can see I changed marginscreenshot for 3.33 to screenshot
<hannie> It is not a very elegant solution, so if you have a better one, please let me know.
<CarstenG> well, you can use the optional argument "baselineskip" for the screenshot command, e.g
<CarstenG> nscreenshot[-5\\baselineskip]{03-U1-naut-sync-icons.png}
<CarstenG> \\marginscreenshot[-5\\baselineskip]{03-U1-naut-sync-icons.png}
<hannie> right, I will try that and let you know if it works. Thanks again
<CarstenG> you can play with the value, positive or negative
<hannie> fun
<CarstenG> But you should use this only for the final touch.
<hannie> that sounds reasonable
<hannie> We, Rob and I, have just finished the reviewing.
<hannie> So, I really hope we can publish soon. I will contact Kevin about a few minor issues
<hannie> see you
<YoBoY> hi
<YoBoY> what is the font used for the ccbysa ? it always throw me an error when I try to compile the quantal manual :]
<YoBoY> godbyk, btw, for the index bug, it seems it's the "Hyperref options for print/screen versions" block who breaks it in quantal
<godbyk> Hey, YoBoY.
<godbyk> YoBoY: If you run the pkgs/install-pkgs.sh script from the raring branch, it will download and install the CC Icons font for you.
<godbyk> YoBoY: Which index bug?
<YoBoY> no index page links
<godbyk> YoBoY: Ah,  that's not a bug per se.
<godbyk> YoBoY: The hyperref package (which provides the links) and the xindy program (which handles the indexing), aren't completely compatible.
<YoBoY> and the install-pkgs.sh is not donwloading anything :]
<godbyk> Namely, xindy doesn't know how to handle hyperref links in the index.
<godbyk> So to get them to work together, I had to disable the links in the index.
<godbyk> YoBoY: Are you running the install-pkgs.sh script from the raring branch?
<YoBoY> ho, ok, I understand
<godbyk> The quantal and precise-e2 versions haven't been updated yet.
<YoBoY> no, quantal
<YoBoY> I haven't started to work on the raring branch yet
<godbyk> Give me a moment and I'll update the quantal script.
<YoBoY> no rush
<YoBoY> It's late here, I have to go to bed ;)
<godbyk> Okay, the quantal script should be updated now.
<YoBoY> btw I worked a bit more to understand how all the spaces are working. My conclusion is Launchap is annoying with latex. It converts the [nbsp] in real nobreakspace ("Â " << this one) and that's the problem with polyglossia who think it's a normal caracter and add another nobreakspace :]
<godbyk> Yeah.
<YoBoY> I don't know how launchpad work with translations but can't it convert the [nbsp] in ~ ?
<godbyk> The non-breaking space is equivalent to ~.
<godbyk> And you can have multiple ~~~ strung together.
<godbyk> I don't know. Launchpad does all of that automatically.
<YoBoY> polyglossia works fine with a ~
<godbyk> I don't think I have any control over it.
<godbyk> (I didn't even know about the [nbsp] and [nnbsp] tricks until you guys told me about it.)
<YoBoY> :)
<YoBoY> for application translations it's usefull, and this way we can't forget them
<godbyk> Yeah.
<godbyk> For LaTeX, I think the opposite is better: just forget them and let LaTeX handle it. :-)
<YoBoY> who can tell is a " " is a "Â " or a " " :D
<godbyk> Exactly!
<YoBoY> yes, we can think like that, "don't put them" but it's so hard to teach the translation rules to new translators, having different rules for different projects can be difficult. And the manual is a good start point for new translators
<godbyk> That's understandable.
<YoBoY> I'll try to find someone from LP
<godbyk> But it seems like the manual has a lot of different things to learn anyway (i.e., LaTeX syntax) that wouldn't apply to translating application strings.
<YoBoY> yes :)
<godbyk> So from my perspective, it's just one more small rule to learn. :)
<YoBoY> we can also create a script to run before the make to convert everything :p
<godbyk> Yes. if necessary, we can run a script that removes all the various spaces around punctuation marks before compiling the French translation.
<YoBoY> todo for me : ask launchpad what it's possible to do with these [nbsp] :)
<YoBoY> I'll do that tomorrow
<godbyk> Cool. Let me know what you find out.
<YoBoY> yes sure :)
<YoBoY> thanks for your answers
<YoBoY> bye :)
<godbyk> G'night!
#ubuntu-manual 2012-11-28
<cqfd93> Hi Everybody!
<hannie> hey cqfd93
<hannie> are you one of our authors, editors or translators?
<cqfd93> hannie, I used nl.po to generate the Dutch manual (precise)
<hannie> is cqfd93 a nick for carsten?
<cqfd93> oh sorry !  I'm Sylvie Gallet (French translator)
<hannie> ah, nice to meet you
<cqfd93> nice to meet you, too :-)
<hannie> the name of my neighbour is Gallet (Lucien et Simone)
<cqfd93> French names
<hannie> cqfd93, did you get the index in the Dutch version of the manual?
<cqfd93> Gallet is a very common name in France
<hannie> I live in France
<cqfd93> I was about to talk to you about the index
<cqfd93> where in France?
<hannie> ok, did you get it?
<hannie> quarante six
<hannie> Lot
<cqfd93> ye, I got the index, but there are some problems, and like in the French manual, no links
<hannie> ok, I just wrote to Kevin about it. When the index is ok we are ready to publish the Dutch version
<cqfd93> lot: nice area!
<hannie> and you (fr)?
<hannie> Which links do you mean?
<cqfd93> I wanted to see if you had the same problem we're having with the "Debien" index entry
<cqfd93> Living near Parin
<cqfd93> for the links, the page numbers just appear black regular numbers, they don't link to the pages
<hannie> Have you installed texlive 2012?
<cqfd93> yes
<cqfd93> My texlive install is up to date
<hannie> I installed it today (I had 2011), but the index doesn't show
<YoBoY> cqfd93, hannie I talk with kevin the other day about these links in the index, he deactivated them for now
<YoBoY> > YoBoY: Ah,  that's not a bug per se.
<YoBoY> > YoBoY: The hyperref package (which provides the links) and the xindy program (which handles the indexing), aren't completely compatible.
<hannie> hey YoBoY , so that may be the problem
<cqfd93> Hi YoBoY!
<YoBoY> bonjour :)
<hannie> well, if Kevin awakes, he will answer my email
<cqfd93> The Dutch translation has another problem: they translated all of the see| and seealso| (these should remain in English)
<hannie> ay, cqfd93 I'll have to fix that
<hannie> I am going to have a look right now
<cqfd93> hannie, after you fix that, you will probably have another error caused by "Debian|seealso{Linux}"
<hannie> gotit, I am going to fix it straightaway (I never noticed ;) )
<YoBoY> and I asked on launchpad mailing list and on a french LaTeX mailing list how to deal with our nbsp problems with the best flexibility :)
<YoBoY> seems Launchpad can't help us on that
<hannie> what is nbsp?
<YoBoY> non breaking space
<hannie> ok
<YoBoY> we use them a lot in French typography :)
<cqfd93> hannie: you can temporarily replace it with "Debian" but the index entry will show two page numbers instead of just page 6
<hannie> Should they be added to the clo file?
<hannie> nbsp I mean
<hannie> cqfd93, I'll do that too
<cqfd93> ok, hope it helps!
<hannie> I will let you know
<cqfd93> ok
<YoBoY> hannie, there is already nbsp, it's just they cause some bugs with the tools we use. It's for now fixed, but it's not clean enought. It's why I try to find a better way to deal with them :)
<hannie> right, thanks for explaining
<hannie> cqfd93, I have fixed the see/seealso. Before I test, should I replace Linux with Debian?
<hannie> "Debian|seealso{Debian}"
<hannie> I could also use # to leave it out for the moment
<cqfd93> Just replace it with "Debian"
<cqfd93> hannie, did you update hyperrefÂ 6.83mÂ as it was required a few days ago for revision 168 in quantal and rev 123 in precise?
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/123 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 123
<hannie> the first link gives me "Not found"
<hannie> the second also
<YoBoY> don't trust the bot :)
<hannie> No, they are just machines ;)
<YoBoY> he can only give links for the focus branch and it's raring now
<hannie> in revision 123 (Precise-e2) I see % Hyperref options for print/screen versions
<hannie> %\RequirePackage{ccicons}% Creative Commons icons
<hannie> can I just use the command apt-get install ccicons?
 * cqfd93 trying to find kevin's email where he explains how to opdate hyperref
<YoBoY> hannie, you just have to launch the install-pkgs.sh to have the ccbysa working, but I don't know if kevin already corrected a bug on that
<cqfd93> I don't know about ccicons
<hannie> YoBoY, did that already, but U used the precise-e2 folder /pkgs
<hannie> I have just installed texlive-extra-fonts
<hannie> I am going to do another check for packages
<YoBoY> yes sure, I'm not mixing versions ^^
<hannie> I had a fight with removing 2011, but now I have 2012
<hannie> install-pkgs.sh report: Done! You should now be able to compile the Ubuntu manual!
<hannie> oops! Warning: Old configuration style found in /etc/texmf/updmap.d
<hannie> Warning: For now these files have been included,
<hannie> Looks like version 2011 has not been removed completely
<cqfd93> Just generated your manual (precise: 147 pages) it's showint some problems in the index (duplicate entries) that will require some cleaning in the translation (we had the same kind of problems in the French manuals a few days ago)
<cqfd93> hannie: good! Are you trying to generate the pdf?
<hannie> cqfd93, did you use my latest nl.po (see/seealso fixed)?
<hannie> cqfd93, I get 145 pages, because the index is not generated
<cqfd93> I fixed it on my computer :-)
<hannie> ok, now it is fixed in LP too
<cqfd93> do you get a "success" message?
<hannie> I do get 1 error, tried to find it, but no success. Besides, you used the same po file without problems
<hannie> So, the problem is my texlive 2012
<hannie> No file ubuntu-manual-nl.ind.
<hannie> I guess this means the index file was not made
<cqfd93> the culprit is probably your hyperref version
<hannie> cqfd93, any idea how I can update this hyperref version?
<hannie> hi CarstenG
<hannie> No file ubuntu-manual-nl.ind.
<CarstenG> Hi Hannie
<cqfd93> hannie, here is a link to your manual http://ubuntuone.com/3x710bSerEI3hOhgUIxDxd
<cqfd93> hi CarstenG
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie
<cqfd93> hannie, try this command sudo tlmgr update --all --self
<cqfd93> tlmgr is the texlive update manager
<hannie> cqfd93, output is: tlmgr: no updates available
<cqfd93> sounds good
<hannie> not so good, because my problem is still not solved :(
<cqfd93> right!
<hannie> tlmgr revision 28216 (2012-11-09 13:34:08 +0100)
<hannie> tlmgr using installation: /usr/local/texlive/2012
<hannie> TeX Live (http://tug.org/texlive) version 2012
<hannie> here you can see I have version 2012 installed
<hannie> I am afraid I will have to reinstall Ubuntu altogether
<cqfd93> reinstalling ubuntu might be too much!
<hannie> well, reinstalling texlive only gives misery
<hannie> The font "CC Icons" cannot be found.
<cqfd93> Was the manual generated in Dutch with just the index missing?
<hannie> I have just installed texlive-extra-fonts
<hannie> I thought ccicons was in there
<cqfd93> I remember I had ti install the font, just don't remember when and where I got it
<hannie> cqfd93, yes, the manual looks good, only there is no index
<hannie> and the English version gives me the ccicons error
<cqfd93> you may have to talk with kevin about that, I'm not sure I can really help
<hannie> well, you have been a help so far, only finding the solution is very hard
<cqfd93> Still can't find where I got ccicons...
<hannie> don't worry, I'll find it
<CarstenG> Hannie, I have just read your discussion with Sylvie in the logs.
<CarstenG> Could you pleas do a "make clean"
<hannie> ok, any suggestions? I cannot generate the indes. The rest is fine
<CarstenG> And then a "make ubuntu-manual-nl.pdf"
<hannie> *index
<CarstenG> And email me the complete output from the terminal.
<godbyk> Hey, hannie. I just uploaded the Dutch title page to the precise-e2 branch so it should start appearing in the PDF.
<hannie> I already did that twice :( I'll do it once more (for you ;) )
<cqfd93> hi godbyk!
<godbyk> Hey, Sylvie!
<godbyk> I'm just getting caught up on the conversations here. :)
<hannie> hey godbyk My worries at the moment are that I cannot generate the index
<hannie> godbyk, thanks for the title page
<godbyk> hannie: Okay. Should I use the nl.po in the repository or the one from Launchpad?
<hannie> I uploaded the latest version to LP a while ago. That one is fine
<godbyk> Okay. I'm building the PDF now with the one from the repository. We'll see how it goes.
<hannie> I'll keep my fingers crossed
<godbyk> hannie: I had to remove the links from the index because they were confusing the indexing program. For now, I think we'll just have to leave the linked turned off in the index.
<godbyk> cqfd93: I figured out why the Debian entry was showing two page numbers.
<hannie> CarstenG, a miracle has happened. The third time I gave the same commands I suddenly get 149 pages (instead of 145)
<godbyk> cqfd93: The \index{Debian|seealso{Linux}} command it at the top of the index file (which is okay).
<hannie> Let me see if I get an index now
<godbyk> cqfd93: But when we remove the seealso bit, it becomes a regular index entry (with a page number), and that's bad.
<godbyk> cqfd93: So the better solution is just to remove that entire \index line.
<godbyk> cqfd93: Unfortunately, this can't be done from Launchpad. We can only do it by modifying the fr.po file itself.
<godbyk> cqfd93: So we'll deal with that once all the other translation stuff has been finished in Launchpad.
<hannie> I'll be **** CarstenG I think you are a witch doctor :)
<hannie> godbyk, I have done a make clean for the 3rd time and suddenly I get the index
<cqfd93> kevin: a few days ago, I told you that the best fix would be to remove the \index{Debian} and keep Debian|see{Linux}  (but see, not seealso)
<hannie> godbyk, so now I can finally check the index for errors. You do not have to bother about it anymore
<godbyk> hannie: Strange.
<godbyk> hannie: I'm glad to hear it's working for you, though.
<godbyk> hannie: Did you get the new CC Icons font installed?
<hannie> godbyk, it was blood sweat and tears to replace texlive 2011 with 2012
<godbyk> hannie: Just run the install-pkgs.sh script from either the quantal or raring branches. (I haven't uploaded it to precise-e2, yet.)
<hannie> godbyk, I did that several times. Everything ok the log says
<godbyk> hannie: I'm surprised it was so difficult. You should've been able to just remove the /usr/local/texlive/2011 directory and install 2012 as usual.
<godbyk> hannie: I just checked the Dutch PDF here and the index shows up. So hopefully it was just a temporary problem on your end.
<godbyk> hannie: Let me know if you continue to encounter problems with it, though.
<hannie> godbyk, I made a very big mistake, I used gksudo to remove 2011. And I am punished for it
<hannie> godbyk, I'll check the index and let you know when it is ok tomorrow
<godbyk> hannie: I would expect that to work. (Though I'm a command-line kind of guy, so I would've just ran 'sudo rm -fr /usr/local/texlive/2011/' from the terminal.)
<hannie> godbyk, the sudo etc. did not work, so I tried the stronger root admin option
<CarstenG> Hey Hannie, congratulations!
<CarstenG> Nice to see, that it now works. :-)
<hannie> CarstenG, yes, I am glad the misery is over ;)
<hannie> I will not lightly use gksudo in the future
<hannie> godbyk, what does the -fr in your command do?
<godbyk> hannie: -f is force and -r is recursive.  -r lets you remove entire directories. and -f tells it not to ask any questions. :)
<hannie> ah, I should learn all these options. they are very powerful indeed.
<hannie> godbyk, I used sudo apt-get remove texlive-* (from our website), but that did not remove /usr/local/texlive/2011
<godbyk> hannie: No, that would only remove any Ubuntu texlive package you have installed.
<godbyk> hannie: You have to remove the /usr/local/tex/live/2011 directory manually.
<godbyk> hannie: (Though it doesn't hurt anything if you leave it there when you install 2012. It just takes up space on your hard drive.)
<hannie> godbyk, no, when I installed texlive from Ubuntu software center I got conflicts with /usr/local/texlive/2011
<godbyk> hannie: Oh, strange.
<godbyk> I was hoping that we could start using the Ubuntu texlive packages, but we can't if we want the index to work right.
<hannie> that's why I decided to radically remove /2011 with gksudo (and bled for it)
<godbyk> (For people who aren't worried about the index, they can still use the Ubuntu texlive packages, though.)
<hannie> godbyk, using the instructions on our website to install texlive work fine
<godbyk> On an unrelated note, it's nice to see some activity in this channel again. :)
<hannie> talking about activity, it won't take long before we have to start with raring
<godbyk> hannie: Yes.
<godbyk> We'll have to have a meeting and set the dates for the milestones and make sure we still have authors and editors.
<hannie> I am just checking the release schedule
<hannie> I see the final beta release is on March 28 2013
<godbyk> What day is the final release?
<hannie> April 25
<hannie> So if we wait for the final beta release, we have one month
<hannie> Would that be sufficient? I do not think going from Quantal to Raring will be a very big step with lots of changes
<hannie> Alpha 2 is released on February 7th
<godbyk> I think we should start writing before the beta release, but we can fix any last-minute changes during editing.
<godbyk> I hope they stick to the feature freeze and UI freeze better this time.
<hannie> ok, so starting from alpha 2 would be fine
<godbyk> I think so. And if anyone wants to dive in earlier, I have no complaints about that. ;-)
<hannie> We could plan a meeting beginning of February 2013
<godbyk> We may have an earlier meeting, too, to plan some other parts of the project that don't directly involve writing the manual (e.g., the website, e-book possibilities).
<hannie> ok, how about beginning of January?
<godbyk> That sounds good.
<godbyk> I'll send out an email after the holidays and we'll find a good time for everyone to meet.
<hannie> great! see you all, guys
<CarstenG> Hannie, you changed in rev 128 the command "\appendixname" to "appendix". So you do not get the Dutch translation "Bijlage"
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/128 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 128
<CarstenG> for that word any more.
<godbyk> See you, hannie!
<CarstenG> What's wrong with that word?
<CarstenG> ok, I will email her. :-)
<godbyk> CarstenG: Guess so. :)
<CarstenG> Oh, there is again a new language complete in precise-e2, Malay
<CarstenG> Great to see!
<godbyk> Cool.
<godbyk> My current task is trying to sort out how to get our PDFs to work well with all of lulu.com's printers.
<CarstenG> I had the idea, to go to a local copy shop with our PDF and let them test it for any problems.
<godbyk> CarstenG: Well, Jeremy's PDF test program didn't report any problems after we fixed the transparency issues.
<godbyk> CarstenG: I'm looking into getting a copy of Adobe Acrobat to see if it can fix things.
<CarstenG> Yes, good idea.
<CarstenG> I have to leave now
<CarstenG> See you
#ubuntu-manual 2012-11-29
<YoBoY> hi
<YoBoY> godbyk, I have a possible workaround for the French non breaking space problems to let us use polyglossia punctuation, some french Latex guru, told me to just add a \catcode`\Â =10
<YoBoY> changing the catcode to declare this non breaking space caracter "Â " as a space and not an "other caracter" like it is by default. This seems to work
<CarstenG> Hi Hannie
<hannie> hello my friends
<CarstenG> Nice to see, that the Dutch translation is finnished
<hannie> yes, yesterday was a struggle, today everything went smoothly
<CarstenG> Can you please push you latest nl.po to LP?
<hannie> I did already. Anything amiss?
<hannie> I opted for the screenshot instead of marginscreenshit for 3.33
<hannie> because baselineskip did not look good
<hannie> *oops screenshot
<CarstenG> the \appendixname?
<hannie> I changed that to how it was in a previous file, just copied it
<hannie> let me see
<cqfd93> Hello!
<hannie> \\hyperref[ch:"
<hannie> "license]{\\appendixname}~\\ref{ch:license}
<hannie> hi Sylvie
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie
<CarstenG> Yes, Hannie. :-) THis is like it should be and was before rev 128 :-)
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/128 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 128
<hannie> CarstenG, is that not ok?
<CarstenG> Look again in my email from yesterday. :-)
<CarstenG> be back in 15 min...
<hannie> aha, so it was also wrong before I changed it. I'll have a look, or you can tell me here
<hannie> cy CarstenG
<hannie> CarstenG, I have to go. I have just pushed my latest version.
<hannie> I did it earlier today, but I do not see it in LP. Strange, because there was no difference after bzr pull and bzr status.
<hannie> I hope it will arrive this time.
<hannie> It says Revision 134 on my pc
<hannie> This is odd too, the latest revision I see is 132. So perhaps my revision 133 got lost somewhere :(
<hannie> Correction: now I see 133 and 134. They are the same
<godbyk> YoBoY: We can adjust the catcode as you say. Then LaTeX would treat that non-breaking space as a regular space (i.e., as if you'd hit the space bar on the keyboard).  Is that the effect you want it to have?
<hannie> I still do not understand why you did not see 133 (sent 1 hour ago)
<hannie> hey godbyk
<godbyk> YoBoY: Do we need to do the same for the narrow non-breaking space ([nnbsp])?
<godbyk> Hey, hannie.
<cqfd93> hi kevin!
<godbyk> Hello, Sylvie!
<hannie> godbyk, I think the Dutch version of Precise-e2 is ready for publishing
<godbyk> hannie: Excellent!
<hannie> let me know if you still find anything that needs to be corrected
<godbyk> hannie: Will do!  I'll take a look at it soon.
<cqfd93> kevin, what do you mean with "do the same for the narrow non-breaking space ([nnbsp])" ?
<hannie> ok, thanks
<hannie> see you all
<cqfd93> see you later hannie!
<godbyk> cqfd93: Ah, YoBoY (about 5 hours ago), mentioned that we changing the meaning of [nbsp] in LaTeX to a regular space may allow LaTeX to properly handing the spacing around punctuation even if the translators insert [nbsp] in the translation.
<godbyk> cqfd93: So I was asking if we'd need to make the same change for [nnbsp].
<cqfd93> I see
<CarstenG> be back
<godbyk> I'll be back after a while. I have to run a few errands and then I'm stuck in a meeting this afternoon for a bit.
<cqfd93> We haven't used a lot of these [nnbsp] - I would say yes, but I'll let YoBoY answer
<cqfd93> See you later
<YoBoY> godbyk, the [nnbsp] already exist in launchpad? not sure about thatâ¦
<YoBoY> or are you refering to the real caracter "â¯" ?
<YoBoY> I think we can treat it the same way for the "â¯" caracter
<godbyk> YoBoY: There were a few narrow non-breaking spaces in the French translation at one point. I don't know if they still exist or not.
<YoBoY> don't know too
<YoBoY> we can start by fixing that for raring
<godbyk> I'll make the adjustments in the raring repository soon so you can test it out.
<godbyk> (Though you can't actually translate anything in raring yet.)
<YoBoY> we are too close to a release I think to change something like that now :)
<YoBoY> (for quantal and precise)
<godbyk> I understand.
<godbyk> When I get some time, I'll make a test run on precise-e2 with those settings just to see if it has the desired effect.
<YoBoY> ok :)
<YoBoY> I continue on my side to find the best solution, perhaps I need to raise a bug on polyglossia to add this king of fix.
<cqfd93> the [nnbsp]  still exist in the French translation : https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/precise-e2/+pots/ubuntu-manual/fr/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=quand+vous+devez+suivre+une+consigne+comme
<YoBoY> it's converted into the narrow non breakig space (unicode 202F)
<YoBoY> (in the .po file)
<YoBoY> so we can keep it in launchpad and fix it in the .clo with the catcode
<cqfd93> Yes
<godbyk> YoBoY, cqfd93: http://builds.ubuntu-manual.org/builds/ubuntu-manual-fr-latex-spacing.pdf shows the effect of using LaTeX spacing and setting the non-breaking spaces to category 10 (space).
<godbyk> YoBoY: I added some code to the um-french.clo file to the precise-e2 repository to handle the catcode changes. Just uncomment it (and comment out the three lines of code above it) to try it out yourself.
 * cqfd93 downloading it :-) Thank you!
<godbyk> Keep in mind that some changes were made manually to the .po file (e.g., the spacing inside the quotation marks), so it may not appear as it would if LaTeX were handling all the spacing itself.
<cqfd93> kevin : yes, the spaces inside the quotation marks are too big in your pdf, they are bigger than regular spaces.
<cqfd93> Except for the spaces inside quotation marks, everything looks good.
<YoBoY> godbyk, merci beaucoup :)
<cqfd93> Could you please replace some of the \, with normal spaces and rebuild the pdf?
<YoBoY> cqfd93, it was just a test, we keep our actual work ;)
<godbyk> cqfd93: I'll try that next. First I have to head to a meeting, though.
<godbyk> YoBoY: If you still have the translation-test-fr.tex file, you can use that to test the various spacing settings.
<godbyk> Try adding in nbsp and nnbsp manually to see how LaTeX handles that with the catcodes.
<cqfd93> No hurry, kevin!  Thank you!
<YoBoY> godbyk, I'll do that, but not now, I'm too busy now and I absolutely need to write a mail to the volunteer of our past ubuntu party to thanks them first :)
<godbyk> YoBoY: No rush. I have to take care of a few other things today, too.
<godbyk> YoBoY: Another option would be to set those space characters to category 9 so that they're ignored entirely. (I haven't tried this yet.)
<godbyk> Off to my meeting now.
<cqfd93> See you later!
#ubuntu-manual 2012-11-30
<hannie> hi CarstenG and all
<CarstenG> Hi Hannie
<hannie> No more things for me to change in nl.po? :)
<CarstenG> Well, if you think it is ok, then we should publish it. :-)
<CarstenG> I just make it with rev 137
<manualbot> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/revision/137 | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual -r 137
<hannie> yes, that is my last upload
<CarstenG> I have a quick view to the index
<CarstenG> apparaten aankoppelen, 110
<CarstenG> apparaten ontkoppelen, 110
<CarstenG> sound similar
<hannie> They are 2 different things, mount and unmount
<CarstenG> ok
<hannie> I always appreciate it when you help me find errors I overlooked
<CarstenG> That's team work. :-)
<CarstenG> Some days ago in the German team the translation progress starts again for precise.
<hannie> Ah, I intended to contact Daniel Schury
<hannie> and other teams that have partially translated precise-e2
<CarstenG> So in the next weeks there will be hopefully some progress
<CarstenG> Yes, Daniel is the leading force there
<CarstenG> he made a wiki page for the status
<CarstenG> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGermanTranslators/UbuntuManual
<hannie> I have made an overview of translation status of many languages. I will send it to the list shortly
<hannie> Example: Malaysian 100% translated!!!!
<hannie> We should do something about that
<CarstenG> Yes, I noticed this to.
<CarstenG> I did not yet found time to make a PDF from that.
<hannie> CarstenG, I am going to write teams asking them if they need our help
<CarstenG> We should contact the malay team for making screenshots now
<CarstenG> Yes, that is good
<hannie> CarstenG, ok. What do you think of the following suggestion:
<hannie> I will make a draft, send it to you and you can add text to it
<hannie> Kevin is a bit busy at the moment, next week he will be available again
<CarstenG> Sure, send the draft.
<CarstenG> I try my best to reply as soon as possible. :-)
<hannie> I will do it tomorrow and send it to you
<CarstenG> good
<CarstenG> figure 3.33: you let it as main screenshot?
<CarstenG> original it was a margin screenshot, or?
<hannie> CarstenG, yes, but with baselineskip it did not look good
<hannie> The problem is that 3.34 is too big. I tried to scale that one, but it does not want to move to the previous page
<CarstenG> Well, 3.34 is this notification window from U1.
<CarstenG> So you could crop it to the upper right part.
<hannie> CarstenG, I scaled it to 1000 x 750, but that does not do the trick
<CarstenG> As I did it in the quantal version
<hannie> So I could try cropping it. Yesterday I did not have time to experiment with cropping and scaling
<CarstenG> The quantal version is 377x217 px
<CarstenG> I would avoid scaling, because the font size becomes to small.
<CarstenG> IMHO
<hannie> ok, if I have time I will do some cropping and see if I can make a marginscreenshot for 3.33
<CarstenG> And one last question.
<CarstenG> Did you test all external hyperlinks?
<CarstenG> We should avoid some "page not found" messages in the browser.
<hannie> Most of the links I have tested, yes
<hannie> ok, you're back. It is always good to test links
<CarstenG> Yes, my battery was low, so my laptop gone to suspend mode. :-)
<hannie> hi Sylvie
<cqfd93> Hi Hannie! Nice to see you!
<cqfd93> Are you ready to publish your manual?
<hannie> yes, I think so. There are always small things to be changed.
<hannie> That is, if you are a perfectionist ;)
<hannie> hey YoBoY
<YoBoY> hi hannie :)
<cqfd93> I agree! You can proofread a dozen times, you'll always find problems ;-)
<YoBoY> +42
<hannie> cqfd93, is the French version also ready for publishing?
<YoBoY> (don't know what your are tlaking about :D)
<cqfd93> Hi YoBoY and everybody ;-)
<hannie> YoBoY, we were talking about the Dutch and French versions of precise-e2 (ready for publishing)
<cqfd93> Hannie, we're still proofreading and making things better
<hannie> cqfd93, I am looking forward to it. Good for my French ;)
<cqfd93> ;-)
<hannie> cqfd93, of course I can make the French pdf myself
<YoBoY> yes, we do that atm, and my eagle eyes always find something Ã²_Ã³
<hannie> I like your glasses
<hannie> How many people are proofreading it?
<hannie> For the Dutch version we were 2, Rob and I
<YoBoY> a lot :D
<YoBoY> (3â¦ perhaps 4â¦)
<hannie> well you have more inhabitants in France...
<cqfd93> Hannie, just download the latest .po from the French translation page
<hannie> yes, I will do that
<hannie> I supose it is almost perfect
<cqfd93> it is not perfect, we're just doing our best
<hannie> ok, next to perfect, like our version
<cqfd93> It's better than yours, because we have all 40 glossary entries (vs about 30 in yours) ;-) ;-) ;-)
<hannie> cqfd93, did you do the screenshots?
<YoBoY> yes
<hannie> aha, I'll dive into the glossary then
<cqfd93> Rickero did most of them, I did some of them with a lot of editing ;-)
<YoBoY> and I didâ¦ heuâ¦ nothing :D
<hannie> I suppose we had the same .pot file as a base
<hannie> that is Enrico?
<hannie> cqfd93, I do not understand why you have more words in the glossary. Did you add words yourself?
<cqfd93> The English manual is also missing a lot of glossary entries, although they are in the file
<cqfd93> We hat to add a few \gls{} here and there
<YoBoY> hannie, you need one of the word of the document tagged like : \gls{your term}
<cqfd93> Going to take a look at your pdf
<hannie> ok, I understand. Somtimes I see gls{} without the preceding \
<CarstenG> Hi Sylvie and Philippe: I had a quick view to the French screenshots. There are some which have the mouse pointer, or have missing window frame.
<hannie> If you find those in the English version (Quantal) it would be wise to file a bug
<CarstenG> ... or fix it directly. :-)
<hannie> CarstenG, but then fix it in the English version, not just the translation, ok
<CarstenG> You shold update these screenshots. They will look better.
<CarstenG> Hannie, well, the quantal translation template is live on LP.
<CarstenG> If we fix it there , the template become invalid...
<cqfd93> Hannie: for example, I don't see LTS, Live CD, or Wubi in the glossary, whereas the glossaryentries do exist
<CarstenG> Iâm not sure if we want to update the translation template regular because some of the finishrd translations get lost in this case.
<cqfd93> CarstenG: about the screenshots, we'll have to look at them, thank you
<CarstenG> You are welcome. If you need help, feel free to contact me.
<cqfd93> afk for a few minutes
<hannie> cqfd93, thanks for giving me those examples. I will check it
<CarstenG> this would be a nice check for Kevins new build script: "check for unused glossaryentries"
<cqfd93> ;-)
<cqfd93> Kevin wrote such a script?
<CarstenG> yes, it is much in development
<CarstenG> You find it in the quantal branch
<CarstenG> you can test it with
<CarstenG> $ ./build -L fr -c
<CarstenG> This checks the French translation for example
<cqfd93> thank you, CarstenG
<CarstenG> suggestions for this script are welcome. :-)
<hannie> \\newglossaryentry{Live CD}{name={Live-CD}
<hannie> The hyphen should not be there
<hannie> I'll change it
<hannie> \\newglossaryentry{LTS}{name={\\acronym{LTS}}
<hannie> looks good to me
<cqfd93> CarstenG: While in the quantal folder, I ran the script and got tons of warnings mentioning precise-e2, like this one:
<cqfd93> Warning: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu-manual/precise-e2/+pots/ubuntu-manual/fr/20/+translate
<hannie> see you all later
<CarstenG> Yes, the branch name is hard coded at the moment
<CarstenG> you have to change this by hand
<cqfd93> OK. The precise and quantal versions share the same glossaryentry problems
<cqfd93> Yesterday, we ran into a problem that looks like a bug...
<cqfd93> With this glossary entry:
<cqfd93>   "\newglossaryentry{LTS}{name={\acronym{LTS}}, description..."
<cqfd93> A sentence such as:
<cqfd93>   "\marginnote{\gls{LTS} est une abrÃ©viation pour Support..."
<cqfd93> should read:
<cqfd93>   "LTS est une abrÃ©viation pour Support..."
<cqfd93> but it reads:
<cqfd93>   "lts est une abrÃ©viation pour Support..."
<cqfd93> (note lts in lowercase)
<cqfd93> The problem persists if we move the \gls{LTS} anywhere in the marginnote{}, but if we put it in the main text, LTS is OK.
<godbyk> cqfd93: That's because the font used for the margin notes doesn't have small caps.
<godbyk> And small caps are used for acronyms.
<godbyk> cqfd93: One moment, and I'll give you a workaround.
<godbyk> cqfd93: Try \glslink{LTS}{LTS}
<godbyk> cqfd93: The \glslink command works like this \glslink{label}{text} where 'label' is the same as what's used for the \gls command, and 'text' is how you want it to appear in the PDF.
<godbyk> (In this case, 'text' is just 'LTS' because we want the capital letters [as opposed to \acronym{LTS} which would give us small caps].)
<godbyk> I'm going to try to modify the LaTeX code to do the right thing for margin notes and acronyms, but I haven't done that yet.
<cqfd93> Hi Kevin!  Thank you, I'm gonna try your workaround
<CarstenG> See you later
<CarstenG> bye
<cqfd93> Kevin, it worked!  Thank you!
<godbyk> cqfd93: No problem!
<cqfd93> Just updated 8 screenshots (fr, precise) - nl.po also got pushed in the same revision (138), hope I didn't break anything in it...
#ubuntu-manual 2012-12-01
<bootinfdsds> Hi Peeps Anyone wanna hangout this morning ? https://diasp.eu/posts/738249
<bokjhv> Hi there .. I'd like to do more translations .. Is there an ebook or wiki to use your software ?? Look to dive right in ... :)
<cqfd93> Hi everybody!
