#ubuntu-classroom 2007-09-17
<PKdoR> ok
<jrib> link to what you are trying to install?
<PKdoR> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/DarkCleanLinux?content=51008
<jrib> this is a gdm theme
<jrib> for the login screen
<jrib> is this what you want?
<PKdoR> yes
<jrib> ok
<jrib> go to system -> administration -> login window
<PKdoR> but I also have some Themes I want to istall beside this login screen
<jrib> k
<jrib> then go to the "Local" tab
<PKdoR> ok
<jrib> then either hit "add" or drag the tar.gz into that window
<PKdoR> Dude you are GOD!!!
* jrib smites PKdoR 
* jrib unsmites PKdoR 
<PKdoR> lol
<PKdoR> if you would aid me in istalling a theme i would apreciate it
<jrib> for metacity, gtk2, and icon themes you can use system > preferences > theme
<PKdoR> then how can i know which ones are actual themes on that page?
<PKdoR> the one i showed you say that its a GDM Theme
<jrib> on the left
<jrib> gtk 2.x  themes change your controls (things like buttons and scrollbars)
<jrib> metacity  themes change your window borders
* slackern tosses an eraser on ChanServ 
<themaster369> hello? jrib you here?
<jrib> yep
<themaster369> cool...did my link work
<themaster369> i used html format you see my message?
<jrib> pastebin the output of this command:  sudo apt-get update
<jrib> hmm, I think I missed that
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37688/
<themaster369> can you see what i have written here?
<jrib> yes
<jrib> but I noticed you had a different error before, so I want to check that
<themaster369> trying to understand if you can see that..how this technology works!...
<themaster369> wow...ok ill type what you asked in terminal..brb
<themaster369> hmmmmm jrib its a very long output
<themaster369> ill pastebin it one sec
<jrib> that's ok, pastebin can handle it
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37690/
<themaster369> ive done it jrib..is the html format ok ?
<jrib> yep, your paste is good, but you see the errors?
<themaster369> yes
<themaster369> failed at bottom of script 3 times
<jrib> pastebin the contents of /etc/apt/sources.list (open it with 'gedit /etc/apt/sources.list')
<themaster369> is that what i type in console?
<jrib> the stuff in '' is
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37691/
<themaster369> is that what you wanted?
<jrib> yep
<jrib> let's try this:  sudo mv /etc/apt/sources.list{,.backup} && sudo touch /etc/apt/sources.list && sudo apt-get update && sudo mv /etc/apt/sources.list{.backup,}
<themaster369> ok
<jrib> done?
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37692/
<themaster369> yes done
<themaster369> this paste bin thing is sooo cool!
<themaster369> ctrl v is paste in windows whats it in ubuntu?
<jrib> hmm, what does this return: ls /etc/apt/sources.list.d/
<jrib> themaster369: it's the same in ubuntu, except in the terminal you need to use ctrl-shift-c and ctrl-shift-v.  You can also, just hilight stuff to copy it and middle click to paste
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37694/
<themaster369> (thx)
<themaster369> been trying to get vmware running for 2 weeks no luck
<jrib> sudo mkdir /etc/apt/sources.list.d/.backup && sudo mv /etc/apt/sources.list.d/*.list* /etc/apt/sources.list.d/.backup
<themaster369> ok one sec
<jrib> yeah, you're having a strange issue with apt, we'll see if this makes it go away
<themaster369> done that
<jrib> now try this again:  sudo mv /etc/apt/sources.list{,.backup} && sudo touch /etc/apt/sources.list && sudo apt-get update && sudo mv /etc/apt/sources.list{.backup,}
<themaster369> ok it says done
<jrib> ok, no errors, correct?
<themaster369> no errors
<jrib> ok, now try 'sudo apt-get update' and see if you still get errors
<themaster369> it just says done
<themaster369> reading packages list...done
<themaster369> thats it
<jrib> when you open 'gedit /etc/apt/sources.list', is there a bunch of stuff in there?
<themaster369> yes but i get an alert on top of message it says the following
<themaster369> The file /etc/apt/sources.list changed on disk.
<jrib> k, close it and open it again?
<themaster369> done that
<themaster369> nothing there
<jrib> hmm, ok, pastebin output of: ls /etc/apt/
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37695/
<themaster369> done
<jrib> ok, now pastebin the output of:  cat /etc/apt/sources.list
<themaster369> done but there is no output
<jrib> I see the error in my logic... create a shiny new sources.list at:
<jrib> !easysource
<ubotu> source-o-matic is a webpage where you can (re)generate your sources.list - http://www.ubuntu-nl.org/source-o-matic
<jrib> after you get one from the web page, do 'gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list' and copy and paste from teh web page to your editor.  Then save
<themaster369> ok done that
<jrib> ok, now let's try 'sudo apt-get update' one more time
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37697/
<themaster369> ok ill try sudo now
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37699/
<themaster369> done it
<jrib> ok, your old errors went away
<jrib> but you picked some repos that no longer exist
<themaster369> yes i see that now
<jrib> you know how to remove those?
<themaster369> sorry i have no idea
<themaster369> shall i create new source list?
<jrib> do this: gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list
<jrib> then just delete the lines you don't want
<jrib> you can also create a new one if you think that's easier
<themaster369> ok done it
<themaster369> deleted the lines at bottom third party stuff
<jrib> alright, now try 'sudo apt-get update' and make sure you don't get errors
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37700/
<themaster369> ok done looks like no errors
<themaster369> can i install VMware now?
<themaster369> btw jrib i really appreciate your help!...dont know why i never came here before..i normally learn through documentation,,but this is beyond me
<jrib> themaster369: vmware or virtualbox?
<themaster369> i would prefer VMware since i have used it before..dont know much about virtualbox or pluses or cons
<jrib> well for vmware, just do 'sudo aptitude install vmware-player'
<jrib> virtualbox is nice too
<themaster369> which one is better in your opinion?
<jrib> I prefer virtualbox
<themaster369> why
<jrib> but some claim vmware is better for virtualizing windows
<jrib> virtualbox has a nice gui and is supposedly faster
<themaster369> i wanna go with virtualbox
<themaster369> try something new
<themaster369> i got the app already downloaded
<jrib> k, where is the .deb now
<themaster369> wierd i downloaded it but its not in desktop...new to firefox as well btw
<jrib> if you add "deb http://www.virtualbox.org/debian feisty non-free" to your /etc/apt/sources.list you can use aptitude to install it
<themaster369> ok...whats the fastest way to go to sources list ?
<jrib> gksudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list
<themaster369> (thx)
<themaster369> http://www.virtualbox.org/debian/dists/feisty/non-free/binary-i386/
<themaster369> is this the directory i need?
<jrib> deb http://www.virtualbox.org/debian feisty non-free
<jrib> that's what I have in mine
<jrib> that line
<themaster369> that directory doesnt exist they may have changed it
<themaster369> will that binary package 'packages.gz' work for me on this link
<themaster369> http://www.virtualbox.org/debian/dists/feisty/non-free/binary-i386/
<jrib> I don't think you are understanding
<jrib> do you have your sources.list open in gedit?
<themaster369> aptitude is like synaptic manager?
<jrib> yep
<themaster369> OH...I think i follow
<themaster369> you want me to paste that URL into the source list file ???
<themaster369> correct?
<jrib> paste the whole line: deb http://www.virtualbox.org/debian feisty non-free
<jrib> at the bottom of your sources.list
<themaster369> ok done
<themaster369> done and saved.
<jrib> 'sudo apt-get update' any time you edit that page
<jrib> s/page/file
<themaster369> ahhhh man...the output had an error...pasting it...one sec
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37701/
<themaster369> here is my current source list >
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37702/
<jrib> http://virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads
<jrib> that's where I'm getting this info:
<jrib> here's what you need to do:
<jrib> wget http://www.virtualbox.org/debian/innotek.asc
<jrib> sudo apt-key add innotek.asc
<themaster369> ?do i add the wget 'url' to the bottom of my source list?
<jrib> nah
<jrib> you can close your /etc/apt/sources.list now
<jrib> wget is a terminal comand
<jrib> it downloads files
<jrib> and then apt-key adds the virtualbox key
<themaster369> crikey!...ok..typing in terminal
<themaster369> ok done that
<themaster369> innotek.asc saved
<jrib> then:  sudo apt-key add innotek.asc
<themaster369> sudo adds applications ?
<jrib> well sudo runs the next command with superuser privileges
<themaster369> it just returned OK
<jrib> ok, now 'sudo apt-get update'
<themaster369> done with no errors
<jrib> heh, finally
<jrib> ok, to install virtualbox, just do:  sudo aptitude install virtualbox
<themaster369> wow...this is exciting!! no errors so far !..(my first app!!) it says do i want to continue
<themaster369> ill put Y
<themaster369> right...we are moving...its downloading stuff
<themaster369> is there a way to save this conversation jrib?
<jrib> themaster369: what client are you using?
<themaster369> Ubuntu
<jrib> to talk now on irc
<themaster369> ver 7 i think
<themaster369> oh hmmm gaim
<themaster369> why you ask about client?
<jrib> do you have  "conversation"  in the menu at the top?
<themaster369> yes
<jrib> should be a "save as" option in there
<themaster369> (oh ok to save dialogue)
<themaster369> got it thx
<themaster369> i have blue screen...doesnt respond to mouse movements
<themaster369> looks like the windows setup screen on a new rig
<jrib> yep, you can press TAB to get to "ok" and then press Enter
<jrib> after reading and agreeing of course
<themaster369> yep done
<themaster369> not sure what to do with this
<themaster369> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37703/
<jrib> Yes like it recommends
<themaster369> shall i delete old modules?
<themaster369> ok
<themaster369> ok
<themaster369> im back to command prompt
<themaster369> terminal i mean
<jrib> k, you should have in your menu: applications -> system tools -> virtual box
<themaster369> no system tools in applications
<jrib> run 'killall gnome-panel' in a terminal
<themaster369> ok done it
<jrib> is "system tools" there now?
<themaster369> i see it now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<themaster369> wow...i really cant thank you enough jrib...2 weeks of mayhem sorted in 2 hours !..thanks a lot buddy
<jrib> no problem
<themaster369> can i add you to buddies?
<themaster369> you on here normally?
<jrib> I'm usually in #ubuntu
<themaster369> you in states?
<themaster369> im in London btw
<jrib> yep
<themaster369> cool...setup looks straight forward from here..similar to VMware setup screen..chat soon...thanks again for help.. i appreciate it:)
<themaster369> hi jrib
<themaster369> maybe a quick question..but theres a problem accessing my dvdrom drive on the laptop what can i check for?
<themaster369> is there anyone here?
<themaster369> can anyone here hear me?
<pleia2> themaster369: you might want to check out the main #ubuntu channel if you're looking for general support
<pleia2> there are a lot more people there, some might be able to answer your questions
<themaster369> i have been there, am there now...cant get any help at all
<pleia2> tried forums? mailing lists?
<pleia2> there are lots of ways to find help in the Ubuntu community :)
<themaster369> i know..but its so frustrating...i just want to know 2 maybe 3 things..spent last 3 weeks trying to settup ubuntu on laptop with vmware
<themaster369> installed ubuntu but vmware failed so virtual box worked but its screwed up my DVD rom drive
<themaster369> it just says unable to mount media
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-09-18
<ishock> Well, downloading the eggdrop package from apt-get install didn't go well, so I downloaded it. Problem ios...
<ishock>  Tcl cannot be found on this system.
<ishock>   Eggdrop requires Tcl to compile. If you already have Tcl installed on
<ishock>   this system, and I just wasn't looking in the right place for it, re-run
<ishock>   ./configure using the --with-tcllib='/path/to/libtcl.so' and
<ishock>   --with-tclinc='/path/to/tcl.h' options.
<ishock>   See doc/COMPILE-GUIDE's 'Tcl Detection and Installation' section for more
<ishock>   information.
<jrib> what was the issue with the eggdrop from APT?
<ishock> It wouldn't run right, the files were all spread around and missing some...It was a mess
<ishock> Can you help me with this one?
<jrib> I don't know anything about eggdrop
<ishock> Its TCL
<ishock> Why isn't the TCL working
<ishock> What package should I install to get TCL
<jrib> What happened when you ran eggdrop from APT and specified the conf file location?
<jrib> errors?
<ishock> Actually, I broke my conf file *Whistles*
<jrib> so make a new one?
<ishock> =\
<jrib> I don't see how compiling eggdrop changes the need for that
<ishock> jrib
<ishock> It's the files being spread all over that's killing me..
<jrib> what files being spread all over?
<ishock> Like
<ishock> some are in /usr/bin n shit
<jrib> every program on linux is like that
<jrib> you don't need to touch those
<jrib> only thing you need to touch is in /etc/ which holds conf files.  And for eggdrop, all you do is create your own conf file and specify it on the command line when you start it
<jrib> if you *really* want to compile it, despite what I say, do: sudo aptitude install build-essential && sudo apt-get build-dep eggdrop
<jrib> and read the following:
<jrib> !compile
<ubotu> Compiling software from source? Read the tips at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompilingSoftware (But remember to search for pre-built !packages first: not all !repositories are enabled by default!)
<ishock> jrib, all I need is TCL
<jrib> that command will give you all you need, including tcl
<jrib> but really, you don't need any of this :)
<ishock> The !compile or build-dep eggdrop?
<jrib> both
<ishock> I gotta do both for the tcl?
<jrib> !compile gives you information from ubotu that you need to read
<ishock> SO I have to read that for TCL?
<jrib> you have to read it to learn to compile
<jrib> the command I said gets you build-essential and the build dependencies for eggdrop which includes tcl
<ishock> Look, if I want TCL, do I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO do the !compile crap?
<ishock> Rofl
<ishock> This is why I love linux
<jrib> the page ubotu gave you, walks you through compiling applications...
<ishock> ishock@ishock-laptop:~/Desktop/eggdrop1.6.18$ make
<ishock> make[1] : Entering directory `/home/ishock/Desktop/eggdrop1.6.18/src'
<ishock> This may take a while. Go get some runts.
<ishock> jrib
<ishock> When's the next release month?
<ishock> I R waiting for Gutsy
<jrib> october
<ishock> o
<ishock> YEY
<jrib> yep, about one month from today
<ishock> I remember my anticipation of waiting for Feisty -.-
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-classroom.log
<GreyWolfe> So, Jordan_U, how would you suggest I fix that problem?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, If you don't mind repartitioning I would make a separate /boot
<GreyWolfe> I have no clue how to do that, I have been using Linux for like 4 days
<GreyWolfe> Also, I have formatted my external drive and reinstalled Ubuntu on it several times. I still get GRUB error 18
<GreyWolfe> Which to me says that my MBR has been overwritten and is outside the first 8GB of the HD
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, GRUB reads a configuration file from another partition, that is why it is outside the first 8 GIG
<GreyWolfe> Hmm... but GRUB was working perfectly at first, it just randomly up and quit
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, That is why I suggested that lilo might work since all the info is stored in the MBR ( which is nice for some things but means less flexibility / features )\
<GreyWolfe> Ahh ok, and I can find instructions for installing LILO online?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Your /boot/grub/stage_2 might have moved to a different physical part of the partition
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Yes, but it can be much harder than Grub
<GreyWolfe> Hmm.. well, I am not computer illiterate, as long as the instructions are clear, I should be ok
<GreyWolfe> Ok, I jsut tried something to reinstall and redirect GRUB into the root, lets see if that did it
<GreyWolfe> brb
<GreyWolfe> Ok, that didn't work. Jordan_U: Would it be possible to install GRUB onto my external HD then change the boot priority?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, I don't think that would help but I am not sure, unless you created a separate /boot on the external drive as well
<GreyWolfe> hmm
<GreyWolfe> ok, then I will try LILO first
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, OK, I will try to walk you through it, but I havn't used lilo in a long time, so you may clobber your MBR ( not that it is very useful in its current state anyway :)
<GreyWolfe> Heh, exactly, I really don't have much to lose
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, This is a great way to start out with Linux though :) if you don't like messing with this stuff it would be easy to re-install
<GreyWolfe> Well, I did quite a bit of messing around already when it was working, as it seems that Compiz Fusion has a thing against ATI cards :P
<GreyWolfe> But after alot of messing about, I got it to work nicely
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, More that ATI has a thing against writing decent drivers :)
<GreyWolfe> Heh, true. I want to upgrade, but video cards are expensive, and this is a built in one
<GreyWolfe> Any idea if I can just plug-and-play a new video card? While I have your attention
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Though they have gotten *Much* better recently ( this month ) but you won't see much benefit to their changes for at least two Ubuntu releases
<GreyWolfe> Well, my card is almost a year old too, so I guess it is to be expected that it isn't GREAT
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, I have Compiz running great on an almost 4 year old POS intel integrated card... ATI is just that bad :(
<GreyWolfe> Heh, I can't even render some FPS games properly under Windows
<GreyWolfe> I think it is because my card is also meant more for AMDs and I have a Pentium
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Well, back to lilo, are you booted from the LiveCD now?
<GreyWolfe> Yea
<GreyWolfe> As far as I can tell, it is the only way I can boot
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Do you know what the device name is for the partition with Ubuntu on it? ( /dev/something )
<GreyWolfe> ummm no, how would I find that out?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Run "sudo fdisk -L" to see a list of partitions
<GreyWolfe> invalid option --L
<Jordan_U> ... lower case "l" actually :)
<GreyWolfe> ahh ok
<GreyWolfe> Device Boot      Start         End      Blocks   Id  System
<GreyWolfe> /dev/sdb1   *           1       38559   309725136   83  Linux
<GreyWolfe> /dev/sdb2           38560       38913     2843505    5  Extended
<GreyWolfe> /dev/sdb5           38560       38913     2843473+  82  Linux swap / Solaris
<GreyWolfe> Note: sector size is 2048 (not 512)
<GreyWolfe> that what you are asking?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Yes, do you have only Ubuntu installed on this drive?
<GreyWolfe> yup
<GreyWolfe> I have done nothing at all to this drive, other than install Ubuntu
<GreyWolfe> wait a second, I have a question
<GreyWolfe> My MBR should be in the first partition of my first drive, correct?
<Jordan_U> OK, from the LiveCD run: "sudo mkdir /mnt/ubuntu"
<Jordan_U> sudo mount /dev/sdb1 /mnt/ubuntu/
<Jordan_U> mount -t proc none /mnt/ubuntu/proc
<Jordan_U> mount -o bind /dev /mnt/ubuntu/dev
<Jordan_U> chroot /mnt/ubuntu
<GreyWolfe> when doing mount -t proc none /mnt/ubuntu/proc, it says that only root can do that, i assume i need sudo before those commands?
<Jordan_U> ( actually, you need sudo for all of those, or just run sudo -s to get a root shell
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, yup :)
<GreyWolfe> Was I correct about where my boot partition should be?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, What do you mean?
<GreyWolfe> because it appears to be at the END of my main HD, not the beginning
<GreyWolfe> Disk /dev/sda: 200.0 GB, 200049647616 bytes
<GreyWolfe> 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 24321 cylinders
<GreyWolfe> Units = cylinders of 16065 * 512 = 8225280 bytes
<GreyWolfe>    Device Boot      Start         End      Blocks   Id  System
<GreyWolfe> /dev/sda1               1       23215   186474456   17  Hidden HPFS/NTFS
<GreyWolfe> /dev/sda2   *       23217       24321     8875912+   c  W95 FAT32 (LBA)
<GreyWolfe> that is my windows HD
<Jordan_U> No, it's at the beginning
<GreyWolfe> oh, ok
<GreyWolfe> The way I understand numbers, it is showing that the boot partition is the second one
<Jordan_U> The swap partition is like the page file in Windows, except it is better because it is on a separate partition :)
<GreyWolfe> Ahh ok, i'll pretend I know that that means, and we can continue with LILO :P
<GreyWolfe> I have entered all the commands you have given me
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, OK, now "apt-get install lilo lilo-doc"
<Jordan_U> ( make sure you are running this from the same terminal window as the chroot command was run in )
<GreyWolfe> i am
<GreyWolfe> ok, I am back at a prompt
* Jordan_U wonders if /proc needs to be mounted like /dev for lilo-confg to work
* GreyWolfe has no idea what Jordan_U is talking about
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, OK, now run liloconfig ( I think, type lilo and hit tab to see the options, there should be a command named like that in the list )
<GreyWolfe> umm it gave me some sort of error
<GreyWolfe> would it be best if i sent a screenshot?
<GreyWolfe>                                                                            
<GreyWolfe>   WARNING!                                                                  
<GreyWolfe>                                                                             
<GreyWolfe>   Your /etc/fstab configuration file gives device                           
<GreyWolfe>   UUID=85375713-cefb-4a0e-9807-ff06c378645f as the root filesystem device.  
<GreyWolfe> I believe I got booted for flooding
<Jordan_U> !paste | GreyWolfe
<ubotu> GreyWolfe: pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You did
<GreyWolfe> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37762/
<GreyWolfe> that the right way to do it?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Yes
<GreyWolfe> ok
<GreyWolfe> Never used pastebin before, seems like a handy service
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Looks like liloconfig doesn't understand UUIDs, you might need to temporarily change your fstab to make it happy
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, It is, there is also a program you can install called pastebinit which is useful if you don't have a GUI for a browser
<GreyWolfe> ok, what is my fstab?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, It is the file that configures how your partitions are mounted
<GreyWolfe> ok... And how do I go about changing it?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, liloconfig is looking there to try to find out what the block device is (/dev/sdb1 in your case)
<GreyWolfe> ok?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Can you pastebin your /etc/fstab ?
<GreyWolfe> umm i can try?
<GreyWolfe> its only 3 lines
<Jordan_U> Then just paste it here
<GreyWolfe> unionfs / unionfs rw 0 0
<GreyWolfe> tmpfs /tmp tmpfs nosuid,nodev 0 0
<GreyWolfe> /dev/sdb5 swap swap defaults 0 0
<GreyWolfe> im guessing the problem is that is is looking at sdb5 instead of sdb1?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Ahh, paste the one from your installed system, not the one on the LiveCD
<GreyWolfe> ohh, oops
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, ( you can do this easily by running "cat /etc/fstab" from the terminal window you already have open
<GreyWolfe> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37765/
<Jordan_U> look at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37766/ again ( I have modified it ) and make the changes that I have done ( you can edit the file with "nano /etc/fstab" from the same terminal )
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Why did you quit?
<GreyWolfe> im here, sorry
<GreyWolfe> something screwed up with GNOME
<GreyWolfe> I thought I was disconnected, but I had moved the chat to another workspace
<GreyWolfe> im still getting used to having more than one
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Did you see my last comment on how to change your fstab?
<GreyWolfe> yup
<GreyWolfe> can i also just do it from a text editor?
<GreyWolfe> since i am logged in as root?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, nano is a text editor, it's just a terminal text editor
<GreyWolfe> I realise that, it jsut seems touchy, it is a format I am not used to
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You can't easily run GUI apps right now because the commands you are running are actually being run from your installed partition and the X server ( GUI ) is being run from the LiveCD
<GreyWolfe> ahhh ok, that makes sense
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You can also just delete the "UUID=85375713-cefb-4a0e-9807-ff06c378645f" and replace it with "/dev/sdb1"
<GreyWolfe> i commented it out
<GreyWolfe> and made the change, how do i save that?
<Jordan_U> ctrl+x to exit, it will ask if you want to save
<GreyWolfe> ok, done
<Jordan_U> ( "^" at the bottom means ctrl )
<GreyWolfe> ahh, i figured it was shift
<GreyWolfe> run liloconfig again?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, yup
<GreyWolfe> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37767/
<GreyWolfe> ok, i ran the config
<GreyWolfe> should i reboot now and see what happens?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You said Yes to everything?
<GreyWolfe> yup
<Jordan_U> Cross your fingers and reboot then :)
<GreyWolfe> ok, il brb and let you know what happens, thanks for your help
<GreyWolfe> Didn't work unfortunately, all that happened was it showed like this
<GreyWolfe> MBR
<GreyWolfe> 
<GreyWolfe> L
<Jordan_U> :(
<GreyWolfe> any idea why it displayed like that?
<Jordan_U> No, I think it displays LILO and how many letters it displays means something about how far it loaded but I am not sure
<GreyWolfe> ahh
<GreyWolfe> well, do you have any suggestions as to how i could run winnt.exe, that is supposed to fix the mbr
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You just want to restore the windows bootloader?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Do you have a windows install CD?
<GreyWolfe> nope, i was never given one with the computer
<GreyWolfe> it came with a recovery partition, which i cant boot
<GreyWolfe> is there perhaps a way i can totally remove GRUB?
<GreyWolfe> or one other possibility, would it be possible to put an .iso onto something like an mp3 player that is recognised as a HD, and run something from that at boot?
<GreyWolfe> sorry to ask so many questions
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Sorry, I was away for a bit, totally removing grub won't do anything unless you replace it with something else, I think there is an Ubuntu package for writing a windows MBR though
<GreyWolfe> hmm
<GreyWolfe> any ideas how i might find that? searching for it on google is bringing up nothing
<GreyWolfe> ok, one more question, could i put the data from a bootable cd onto an mp3 player which seems to be recognised as a HD, and make that bootable?
<GreyWolfe> Jordan_U: I have found a possible solution, but I need some help with it if you are still there.
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Too bad I'm not here :(
<Jordan_U> :)
<GreyWolfe> lol
<GreyWolfe> can i pastebin these instructions?
<Jordan_U> Which?
<GreyWolfe> i think it is something similar to what you had me do before, but they will allow me to put super grub disk onto a pendrive
<GreyWolfe> and boot from that
<GreyWolfe> !pastebin GreyWolfe
<Jordan_U> Why not use super grub disk from a CD like normal?
<GreyWolfe> because i am using my cd drive to run the live cd :P
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, you can just do "/msg ubotu paste" that way it gets sent to you as a PM :)
<GreyWolfe> ahh
<GreyWolfe> thanks
<Jordan_U> np
<GreyWolfe> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/37768/
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You may actually be able to burn a CD from the Live Session if you have enough RAM
<GreyWolfe> i have 1GB
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, OK, try downloading the super grub + gparted + whatever CD http://sgd.howto-linux.de/download/binaries/sgd_plus_distros/sgd_gparted_system_rescue_001.iso , download it to your USB drive or Ubuntu partition to save space
<Jordan_U> ( save RAM I mean )
<Jordan_U> then when it is downloaded right click it and choose burn and follow all the steps up until it asks you to insert a blank CD and force eject the LiveCD and insert a blank CD
<GreyWolfe> how do i forge eject? just press the button?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, On most drives there is a whole where you can stick a paper clip to force eject, or on a lot of laptops the eject button just ejects the CD no matter what the OS wants, which is basically the same thing
<GreyWolfe> umm out of curiosity, is it really that difficult to boot from the pen drive?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, No, I am just curious if this will work, if you don't mind :)
<GreyWolfe> ahh ok, il try
<Jordan_U> This is basically the same as unplugging your hard drive while booted from it which would probably make Windows sh*t itself and BSOD, but I think Linux will do it as long as everything that it needs from the CD for running the applications it's running are already loaded into RAM
<Jordan_U> It will be something like "hey, the drive I'm booted from isn't there anymore, that's unfortunate" and continue doing whatever it can with what it has in RAM.
<GreyWolfe> heh alright
<Jordan_U> Or it will crash miserably ;)
<GreyWolfe> but if my computer explodes... its your fault
<Jordan_U> But either way it will be interesting :)
<GreyWolfe> for a casual abserver maybe, not the guy that bought the system :P
<GreyWolfe> of all the times not to be able to find a pin
<GreyWolfe> i cant find the hole
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Try hitting the eject button on the drive and see if it just ejects
<GreyWolfe> nope
<GreyWolfe> wouldnt eject
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Try "sudo eject" it probably won't do it either but it's worth a try
<GreyWolfe> did it
<Jordan_U> It ejected?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Still there?
<GreyWolfe> Jordan_U: It ejected, but the system locked up
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe I am guessing that it didn't work, based on the fact that right after you said "did it" you stopped responding?
<GreyWolfe> yup
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, OK, Bootable USB drive it is then :)
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Is the drive mounted?
<GreyWolfe> define mounted, it is plugged in and i can transfer data around
<Jordan_U> Ok, double click the tar file and extract it to the USB drive
<GreyWolfe> ok done
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Once you have done that right click the drive and unmount it
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, How many drives do you have in your computer?
<GreyWolfe> i have my internal, my external and the pendrive
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, OK, run "sudo grub"
<GreyWolfe> ok
<GreyWolfe> just list commands, dont wait for feedback, that will probably be alot faster
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Actually, It looks like you should have the files from the folder sgd_usb.... in the root of the USB drive, not the folder itself
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, So if you are not sure if that is how it is then mount the drive again and check
<GreyWolfe> ok fixed
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, OK, unmount the drive again and run "sudo grub"
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, From the shell that comes up run "find /boot/grub/stage1" and paste the output
<GreyWolfe>  (hd1,0)
<Jordan_U> That is strange, it doesn't see the USB drive.
<GreyWolfe> you said to unmount it
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, It shouldn't matter that it is unmounted
<GreyWolfe> i mean i unplugged it from the computer
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, No, leave it plugged in, just not mounted
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Sorry, I wasn't clear
<GreyWolfe> how do i unmount it?
<GreyWolfe> nevermind, got it
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Right click on the disk's icon and choose unmount or run "sudo umount -a"
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Ok, try "find /boot/grub/stage1" again
<GreyWolfe> same thing
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, OK, the USB drive is probably (hd3) but to make sure type "root (hd3" then hit tab, if it shows just one partition formatted as ext2 then it is the the right drive
<Jordan_U> Actually, since there is only one partition it would just complete it to be (hd3,0)
<GreyWolfe> selected disk does not exist
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Ok, type "root (hd" and hit tab and paste what it says
<GreyWolfe> know what we are forgetting?
<GreyWolfe> linux starts counting at 0
<GreyWolfe>  Possible disks are:  hd0 hd1 hd2
<GreyWolfe> thats what it shows
* Jordan_U slaps himself in the forehead
<GreyWolfe> heh i should have noticed that too, dont feel bad :P
<Jordan_U> To be completely safe ( we don't want to overwrite the MBR of your windows drive accidentally ) unmount and unplug the windows drive ( that's external if I remember correctly )
<GreyWolfe> nope
<GreyWolfe> windows is the internal
<GreyWolfe> it came with windows installed originally
<GreyWolfe> so i would in fact like to overwrite that MBR as i believe it is the corrupt one
<Jordan_U> OK, that is why I was confused, I though it was internal which would make it the first drive, but the find command said it was hd1
<GreyWolfe> heh
<Jordan_U> So run "root (hd2,0)"
<Jordan_U> "setup (hd2)"
<GreyWolfe> Error 17: Cannot mount selected partition
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, What is it formatted as?
<GreyWolfe> no idea
<GreyWolfe> how do i find out?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, It probably needs to be ext2, and if you havn't changed it then it is FAT32
<Jordan_U> That would also explain why the find command didn't see it
<GreyWolfe> ok, how do i change it?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, System -> Administration -> Gnome Partition Editor
<GreyWolfe> I dont think it is showing up
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You probably just need to choose it from the top right
<GreyWolfe> i mounted it and am refreshing devices
<GreyWolfe> still dont think it is showing
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You don't see it in the drop down menu at the top right?
<GreyWolfe> there is nothing there that fits the size of the drive
<GreyWolfe> there is one that is a 186GB one a 298GB one and a 256MB one
<GreyWolfe> the drive is 1GB and has nothing on it
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Do you have a 256 meg drive connected to your computer?
<GreyWolfe> not that i know of
<GreyWolfe> it says it is unallocated
<GreyWolfe> dev/sdg
<GreyWolfe> ahh, ok i used QTparted and its picking it up now
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, OK, format it ext2 ( ext2 is better for flash drives than ext3 )
<GreyWolfe> it WAS the 256 MB one, dont knwo why it was reading like that though
<GreyWolfe> every time i try to create a new partition, it closes the program
<nalioth> are we using a liveCD ?
<GreyWolfe> yea
<nalioth> open a console and give 'parted' a run
<nalioth> qt- and gparted suck.
<GreyWolfe> how? total noob here
<nalioth> GreyWolfe: it's quite easy.  there's a help file
<GreyWolfe> and it is of no help at all to me
<nalioth> open a console please
<Jordan_U> nalioth, Don't know if you have been following but GreyWolfe is getting a grub error 18 so I think he needs a separate /boot , all he has is an Ubuntu LiveCD so we are trying to put Super Grub Disk on an external USB drive http://supergrub.forjamari.linex.org/?section=download#usb
<GreyWolfe> console is open, i ran parted
<nalioth> sorry, not been following, just say y'all had come to a stop over qtparted
<nalioth> saw  bleh
<GreyWolfe> parted is running
<nalioth> GreyWolfe: how did you start it?
<GreyWolfe> and i directed it to the USB drive
<GreyWolfe> sudo parted /dev/sdg
<nalioth> then you can type "help" and get the basic usage
<GreyWolfe> the problem i am having is that it cant be read because of the label, and when i try mklabel msdos, the terminal closes
<GreyWolfe> same problem with the other programs, they terminate when attempting to make a label
<nalioth> try parted
<nalioth> it can make labels
<Jordan_U> nalioth, I assume it can't be formatted as FAT and let grub boot so I think formatting it as ext2 is the best thing to do ( ext3 is journaled so it wears out the flash faster )
<nalioth> flash is solid state.  it doesn't 'wear out'.
<nalioth> it may use more space for the journal records, though
<GreyWolfe> i am using parted, i attempted to make a label, the console terminated
<nalioth> you gotta be kidding me
<GreyWolfe> sorry, it exits parted and takes me to the normal prompt
<nalioth> wow.
<GreyWolfe> Welcome to GNU Parted! Type 'help' to view a list of commands.
<GreyWolfe> (parted) mklabel msdos
<GreyWolfe> *** stack smashing detected ***: <unknown> terminated
<GreyWolfe> Aborted (core dumped)
<GreyWolfe> ubuntu@ubuntu:~$
<nalioth> never had parted take a dump on me
<nalioth> what's the matter with grabbing the supergrub cd image and burning it?
<GreyWolfe> im using the livecd to be here?
<Jordan_U> nalioth, He has no other comp
<GreyWolfe> and i dont have a second cd drive hooked up
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, I guess we could go back to trying to install a windows MBR with the ms-sys package
<GreyWolfe> ok...
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, I think you may have a problem with your usb drive though
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, sudo apt-get install ms-sys
<GreyWolfe> hmm, i can try plugging in my other one, one sec
<GreyWolfe> E: Couldn't find package ms-sys
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Enable the universe repository
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, System -> Administration -> Software Sources
<nalioth> and the multiverse repo
<Jordan_U> nalioth, The package is in universe, I would expect it to be in multiverse but it's not
<GreyWolfe> ahh, Jordan_U i can format my other USB HD no problem
<GreyWolfe> so perhaps we can go ahead like that again?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Well I just figured out ms-sys and it is interesting also, and not having a windows OS I can't test it myself... so if you don't mind :) But I will help with either :)
<GreyWolfe> ok, lets go ahead with ms-sys
<GreyWolfe> since now i know i can use my other one if this doesnt work
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Ok, have you enabled universe?
<GreyWolfe> yup
<GreyWolfe> ms-sys is installed
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Do you remember what your windows partition is /dev/whatever ?
<GreyWolfe> i cna check, one sec
<GreyWolfe> i think its sda
<GreyWolfe> yea /dev/sda
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, then "sudo ms-sys --mbr /dev/sda"
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Then reboot and cross your fingers again :)
* nalioth covers his eyes
<GreyWolfe> Windows 2000/XP/2003 master boot record successfully written to /dev/sda
<GreyWolfe> lets see what happens
* nalioth buckles his seat belt, and thinks of how wonderful the world would be w/o windows
<Jordan_U> nalioth, I'm sorry, I'll be sure to get him back using Ubuntu once he has burned a Super Grub CD :)
<nalioth> nah, it's all good
<nalioth> just imagine the workplace of the world, if they didn't have to worry about security issues and BSODs
* nalioth takes his soapbox and trundles off
<GreyWolfe> no luck, it worked for re-writing the MBR, but all it would do is run the recovery partition, and the recovery failed
* Jordan_U sighs 
<GreyWolfe> mhmm, i hear ya, seeing that start working got my hopes up
<Jordan_U> Ok, did we ever get a thumb drive formatted ext2 ?
<GreyWolfe> i believe so
<GreyWolfe> yup, ext2
<Jordan_U> Ok, lets make this sucker bootable
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Extract the contents of the tar / folder to it like before
<GreyWolfe> one sec, gotta dl it again :P
<GreyWolfe> i cant transfer anything onto the drive
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Permissions?
<GreyWolfe> no clue
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, What error do you get?
<GreyWolfe> err yea, dont have permissions
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, gksudo nautilus
<GreyWolfe> all i have there are like 3 things, i dont have the drives i need
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Go to "Computer"
<GreyWolfe> umm file system?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You can get to it from file system ( which is / ) /media/whatever
<GreyWolfe> ok, done
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Ok, run "sudo grub"
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, then "root (hd2,0)"
<Jordan_U> setup (hd2)
<Jordan_U> quit
<Jordan_U> then reboot :)
<GreyWolfe> Error 22: No such partition
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, "root(hd" then press tab
<GreyWolfe>  Possible disks are:  hd0 hd1 hd2
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, OK, "root (hd2" tab
<GreyWolfe> umm it would appear there are no partitions on that drive :P
<GreyWolfe> Disk /dev/sdg: 253 MB, 253231104 bytes
<GreyWolfe> 8 heads, 61 sectors/track, 1013 cylinders
<GreyWolfe> Units = cylinders of 488 * 512 = 249856 bytes
<GreyWolfe>    Device Boot      Start         End      Blocks   Id  System
<GreyWolfe> ubuntu@ubuntu:~$
<GreyWolfe> unless i have no idea what i am talking about, which is also a valid point
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Did you create an ext2 file system with gparted?
<GreyWolfe> yea, i formatted it to ext2
<GreyWolfe> seems it got undone... one sec
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Are you sure you didn't accidentally reformat the external Drive Ubuntu was installed to?
<GreyWolfe> positive
<GreyWolfe> all the info is still there
<GreyWolfe> i know what i did wrong
<Jordan_U> what?
<GreyWolfe> i changed the label for some reason, its ok now, just gotta put the files back on
<GreyWolfe> ok, brb lets see if this works
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-09-19
<BlkGhost> :)
<BlkGhost> sits down
<jrib> hi
<jrib> !fstab
<ubotu> The /etc/fstab file indicates how drive partitions are to be used or otherwise integrated into the file system. See http://www.tuxfiles.org/linuxhelp/fstab.html and !Partitions
<jrib> but there isn't any real nice docs so I'll explain what you have to do basically
<jrib> you need to create a mount point first
<BlkGhost> k
<jrib> so: sudo mkdir /media/my_stuff
<jrib> call it whatever you want instead of "my_stuff"
<rocunreal> Just want you to know jrib i got my problem fixxed ;) you guys are the best at Ubuntu Offical Support
<BlkGhost> done
<jrib> rocunreal: great
<jrib> BlkGhost: you want this to get mounted everytime you boot, correct?
<BlkGhost> yeah
<jrib> so open up your fstab in a text editor: gksudo gedit /etc/fstab
<BlkGhost> k
<jrib> there's some uuid stuff you can use if you plan on moving your hard drive around, do you need that?
<BlkGhost> nope
<jrib> k, what's the block device for your partition?  /dev/foo?
<BlkGhost> /dev/sdb1
<jrib> so in that text file, you're going to make a new line at the bottom and add:
<jrib> /dev/sdb1 /media/my_stuff ext3 defaults 0 0
<jrib> oh sorry, that's wrong
<jrib> /dev/sdb1 /media/my_stuff ext3 defaults 0 2
<jrib> change "my_stuff" appropriately
<BlkGhost> k
<jrib> save it
<BlkGhost> done
<jrib> run 'sudo mount -a'
<BlkGhost> k
<jrib> when you type 'mount' you should now see /dev/sdb1 mounted on /media/my_stuff
<BlkGhost> yeah
<jrib> ok, that's it, now you can use /media/my_stuff
<jrib> you probably want to setup permissions so your user can access it, see:
<jrib> !permissions
<ubotu> The files and directories on an Ubuntu system are organized according to a standard, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard - file permissions are explained at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FilePermissions - All filenames and directory names (and many other things) are case sensitive in Linux
<jrib> (the second link)
<BlkGhost> Why can't I see it on My computer >
<jrib> don't know how that's decided
<jrib> try hitting "reload" maybe
<BlkGhost> so if I reboot
<BlkGhost> IT should probley appear and be able to read and write to it ???
<jrib> don't know; no
<BlkGhost> xcopy
<jrib> you need to setup the permissions first
<jrib> it will show up in /media/my_stuff from now on though with regards to your first question
<rocunreal> jrib you here man?
<jrib> rocunreal: hi
<rocunreal> what was that fonts directory again?
<rocunreal> ::fonts::?
<jrib> type 'fonts://'
<BlkGhost> all I want is myself to be able to read and write
<rocunreal> o thanks sorry about it
<jrib> BlkGhost: are there any files in /media/my_stuff now?
<rocunreal> Im gonna save it in a text file this time so i wont forget :)
<jrib> rocunreal: no problem
<rocunreal> peace
<BlkGhost> jrib
<jrib> BlkGhost:
<BlkGhost> jrib I can't copy to it
<jrib> k, are there any files currently in it?
<BlkGhost> OK fixed it
<BlkGhost> I had to hit it
<jrib> eh?
<BlkGhost> and poof it worked
<jrib> erm ok
<BlkGhost> yeah I kicked the computer
<BlkGhost> no bs
<BlkGhost> ITs dented and it works
<BlkGhost> wahooo
<jrib> hmm, you chown to your user?
<BlkGhost> no ..
<BlkGhost> shoud I
<BlkGhost> ?
<BlkGhost> Should I ?
<jrib> so what is 'ls -ld /media/my_stuff' returning?
<BlkGhost> drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 2007-09-18 16:02 /media/Filesystem2
<jrib> you shouldn't be able to write to it
<jrib> if you want your user to own it, you would do: sudo chown $USER: /media/Filesystem2
<BlkGhost> well what doI do the chrown it
<jrib> don't replace USER, it will be automatically replaced
<BlkGhost> do I need the $
<jrib> yes
<BlkGhost> sudo chmod $user: /media/Filesystem2
<BlkGhost> chmod: invalid mode: `:'
<jrib> linux is case-sensitive; "USER" is not the same as "user"
<BlkGhost> sudo chmod $USER: /media/Filesystem2
<BlkGhost> chmod: invalid mode: `root:'
<jrib> erm
<jrib> two things
<jrib> 1. open a terminal as your user, so you are not root
<jrib> 2. "chown" instead of "chmod"
<BlkGhost> k
<BlkGhost> still invalid mode ghost
<jrib> did you use "chown" instead of "chmod"?
<BlkGhost> yeah
<BlkGhost> ok
<jrib> can you paste what you typed and the output you got?
<BlkGhost> now it says the users name
<jrib> what says the user's name/
<BlkGhost> drwxr-xr-x 3 george root 4096 2007-09-18 16:02 /media/Filesystem2
<jrib> you forgot the :
<jrib> sudo chown $USER: /media/Filesystem2
<BlkGhost> no its there
<jrib> ok, do: sudo chgrp $USER /media/Filesystem2
<BlkGhost> now it has george george
<jrib> you should be all set then
<BlkGhost> thankyou very very very much
<BlkGhost> time to reboot for a test :/
<jrib> k
<BlkGhost> you kick ass thanks again
<jrib> you don't need to reboot though
<BlkGhost> ???/
<jrib> you can just use it now
<jrib> might have to hit "reload" in nautilus
<BlkGhost> I can't see it in my places list
<jrib> oh
<jrib> well if it doesn't show up, you can add /media/Filesystem2 as a bookmark in nautilus and then it will be in your Places menu
<BlkGhost> yeah that worked
<GreyWolfe> You wouldn't happen to be around, would you Jordan_U?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, nope
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Still can't boot?
<GreyWolfe> nope
<GreyWolfe> Well, SGD kinda work
<GreyWolfe> s
<GreyWolfe> it will boot into my recovery console, but then claims that ntloader.exe is missing. I am wondering if my boot.ini is pointing to the right place.
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You would have to ask about that in ##windows, Ubuntu does not boot from SGD ?
<GreyWolfe> Nope, I still get error 18
<GreyWolfe> Which after thorough investigation in #GRUB should definately not be happening
<GreyWolfe> And the problem I am having with fixing boot.ini is that I don't know how to access it. I know what it should actually look like
<GreyWolfe> well, isn't ##windows a helpful channel
<GreyWolfe> ok, another question, can i still access my windows HD from the live cd and copy some files i want to save?
<GreyWolfe> i tried doing gksudo nautilus /dev/sda which should direct to that HD, correct?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, No
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, You point it to the mountpoint, not the drive itself, /dev/sda represents a connection to a piece of harware, not the mounted filesystem
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, But you shouldn't need to use gksudo anyways
<GreyWolfe> ahh
<GreyWolfe> well, another problem seems to have arisen anyways, GParted doesnt recognise the partition type of my windows drive, so i assume that nothing is going to be read from there anyways
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, What does "sudo fdisk -l" show?
<GreyWolfe>    Device Boot      Start         End      Blocks   Id  System
<GreyWolfe> /dev/sda1   *           1       23215   186474456   17  Hidden HPFS/NTFS
<GreyWolfe> /dev/sda2           23217       24321     8875912+   c  W95 FAT32 (LBA)
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, So fdisk sees it as NTFS just fine
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Do you see it in Places -> Computer ?
<GreyWolfe> nope
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Try installing the package ntfs-config
<GreyWolfe> installing now
<GreyWolfe> ok, installed, now what?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Go to Applications -> System Tools -> NTFS Configuration Tool
<GreyWolfe> ok
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Enable write for internal ( and external if you want ) NTFS partitions
<GreyWolfe> i dont have the option to write for internal, it is greyed out
<Jordan_U> strange
<GreyWolfe> mhmm
<Jordan_U> I doubt it but maybe everything is considered "external" when running from the LiveCD?
<GreyWolfe> thats possible
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Enable external write support and see if the partition shows up in Places -> Computer
<GreyWolfe> not showing
<GreyWolfe> i mean, there really isnt anything super important there, just some code i had written for a game, but i can replace that
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Ok, we'll mount it manually
<GreyWolfe> ok
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, run "sudo mkdir /mnt/windows" "sudo mount -t ntfs-3g /dev/sda1 /mnt/windows"
<GreyWolfe> NTFS signature is missing.
<GreyWolfe> Failed to startup volume: Invalid argument
<GreyWolfe> Failed to mount '/dev/sda1': Invalid argument
<GreyWolfe> The device '/dev/sda1' doesn't have a valid NTFS.
<GreyWolfe> Maybe you selected the wrong device? Or the whole disk instead of a
<GreyWolfe> partition (e.g. /dev/hda, not /dev/hda1)? Or the other way around?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, That doesn't sound good
<GreyWolfe> Not at all
<GreyWolfe> think formatting it and trying to run windows recovery would work better?
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, I don't know, but ifyour NTFS partition is toast that would explain why ntloader can't be fount
<GreyWolfe> yea
<Jordan_U> *found
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Are you sure the drive isn't bad?
<GreyWolfe> the drive should be fine
<GreyWolfe> i ran the diagnostics on the windows recovery thing and it passed everything with flying colours
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, Hard drive diagnostics or general hardware diagnostics?
<GreyWolfe> both i think
<GreyWolfe> http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk
<GreyWolfe> guy in #windows said to try that
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, I don't think that testdisk does hardware diagnostics
<GreyWolfe> ahh
<GreyWolfe> well, since it seems the drive is toast anyways, im going to format that partition and attempt to run windows recovery
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, I never said the drive was toast
<GreyWolfe> ok
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, I just said that it was a possibility
<GreyWolfe> ahh ok
<GreyWolfe> well, i really have to leave for now, my gf is going to kill me if im not at her house soon
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, I'm going to sleep, good luck
<GreyWolfe> thanks, enjoy the sleep
<GreyWolfe> and thanks for all the help
<Jordan_U> GreyWolfe, No problem
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-09-20
<sanguisdex> so I heard all this hubbub about the new ATI drivers and installed them according to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto/ATI#head-796aa4d6d0477c8ed722acef1878cc5626855ae3-2 and now when I log in using beryl all I get is distorted lines accross the screen? can any one help me?
<jrib> #ubuntu for help sanguisdex
<jrib> sams: hi
<sams> hello  /join #ubuntu-classroom
<sams> sorry
<jrib> sams: open a terminal
<sams> hio jrib
<sams> ok
<jrib> now, tell me the output of this command:  apt-cache policy mplayer | grep -i Installed
<sams> with sudo or with out sudo ?
<jrib> no sudo
<sams> Installed: 2:1.0~rc1-0ubuntu9.1
<jrib> good
<sams> now
<jrib> now run: update-desktop-database
<sams> No directories in update-desktop-database search path could be processed and updated.
<jrib> erm
<jrib> ok: sudo update-desktop-database
<sams> sam@sam:~$ sudo update-desktop-database
<sams> sam@sam:~$
<sams> nothing happen
<sams> just prompt again
<jrib> now check if mplayer shows up in the "open with" menu
<nalioth> sams: that means the command was successful
<sams> ok
<sams> let me c
<sams> there is no mplayer in open with menu
<jrib> ok
<jrib> what file is this?
<sams> but it is listed in sound & vedio menu
<sams> i played av file
<sams> avi
<sams> mpeg
<jrib> one file at a time
<sams> mpeg
<jrib> you should be able to right click and go to properties
<sams> ok
<jrib> then "open with"
<sams> ok
<jrib> then you can add a command
<jrib> "gmplayer" without quotes
<sams> ok
<sams> system swtukcs let me restart
<sams> i did but got error ...error seek
<sams> faild seek
<sams> i think i need codecs now
<jrib> !w32codecs
<ubotu> Seveas has a popular 3rd party repository for several packages, including the win32 codecs: see http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeveasPackages - See also !Codecs
<sams> ok ubotu
<ss1> I have my .deb file on desktop...how to install it?
<nalioth> dbl click it
<ss1> nalioth:double clicking gives me open the folder of that name
<sams> jrib i got error
<nalioth> then something is not working on your box  :(
<sams> Package w32codecs is not available, but is referred to by another package.
<sams> This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
<sams> is only available from another source
<sams> E: Package w32codecs has no installation candidate
<nalioth> close the nautilus window, sams
<nalioth> and open a terminal
<sams> wich one
<nalioth> your choice
<sams> ok i open the terminal
<nalioth> now type "cd Desktop" (no quotes) and press the enter key
<sams> i m on same prompt
<nalioth> are you at the Desktop, sams ?
<ss1> nalioth:double clicking it,extracts it in folder
<nalioth> whoa.
<sams> yes
<sams> nalioth:
<nalioth> i'm sorry, guys, i didn't realize i was talking to two people
<sams> iots ok nalioth:
<ss1> :)
<nalioth> ss1: are you at the desktop ?
<ss1> yes
<sams> nalioth:  i need to edit source file but i cant save it ??
<nalioth> ss1: to install your deb, type "sudo dpkg -i *.dep"
<nalioth> sams: in your terminal, type "wget http://www.debian-multimedia.org/pool/main/w/w32codecs/w32codecs_20061022-0.1_i386.deb" and hit the enter key
<sams> bash: http://www.debian-multimedia.org/pool/main/w/w32codecs/w32codecs_20061022-0.1_i386.deb: No such file or directory
<sams> sam@sam:~$
<nalioth> sams: you didn't do what i wrote
<sams> ok
<sams> its working now
<nalioth> when it's completed, type "sudo dpkg -i *.deb" and press the enter key
<sams> ok
<sams> nalioth : can i use squid for fast browsing
<sams> ???
<nalioth> sams: squid can increase your browsing speed
<ss1> nalioth:thnx
<sams> yes i heard that
<sams> nalioth
<sams> but how i can set it ?nalioth
<ss1> and what about qflv2avi-0.5.tar.gz file? I have extracted that on desktop ...is possible to run this?
<nalioth> sams: there are lots of pages on the www that explain
<nalioth> sams: you may also ask in #squid
<sams> i never tried it b4 plz if u know the good one then guide me how to set it ?   nalioth
<sams> ok nalioth
<sams> the command u gaVE ME WILL TAKE 2 HOURS ??nalioth
<nalioth> sams: it is not my problem if you have slow internet
<sams> ok sir
<ss1> thnx...bye...:)
<sams>  nalioth :: its don
<nalioth> sams: see the instructions above  :)
<sams> yes i gave the comand u gave
<sams> ing previously deselected package w32codecs.
<sams> (Reading database ... 88277 files and directories currently installed.)
<sams> Unpacking w32codecs (from w32codecs_20061022-0.1_i386.deb) ...
<sams> Setting up w32codecs (20061022-0.1) ...
#ubuntu-classroom 2007-09-23
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: So I should probably format this drive and add a tiny os x partition?
<nalioth> Red-Sox: are you following me?  :D
<Jordan_U> If you have the OSx install disk
<Jordan_U> nalioth, I told him to come here
<Red-Sox> nalioth: No actually Jordan_U invited me in :P
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: Would a MacBook one be okay?
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Possibly, try it :)
<Red-Sox> Maaan
<Red-Sox> I don't wanna install OS X again
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, It's not that hard
<Red-Sox> I know
<Red-Sox> But it's pretty time consuming right?
<nalioth> Red-Sox: no, it's not.
<Red-Sox> Hmm
<Red-Sox> Okay let's look for this disk....
<Red-Sox> What if I don't have one...then what Jordan_U?
<Red-Sox> yay! I found them
<Red-Sox> So pretty much, Jordan_U, I need to put the disk in, format the drive and install os x on a small partition?
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Yes
<nalioth> Red-Sox: no.
<Red-Sox> Uh oh
<Red-Sox> nalioth: ?
<Jordan_U> nalioth, ? :)
<nalioth> Red-Sox: you'll need to create a small partition (10gb will do) and THEN format it
<Red-Sox> Okay.
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, You may need to use Disk Utility to make the partition before installing, I don't know if the Installer itself has "Advanced" features like partitioning :)
<Red-Sox> I barely have that much free space
<Red-Sox> isn't that what nalioth just said?
<nalioth> Jordan_U: it does not.
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Yes, but I entered that before reading what he said :)
<Red-Sox> Oh righto.
<Red-Sox> Let's see...now how do I create a new partition?
<Jordan_U> nalioth, I don't think he wants OS x at all ( I said to keep it for firmware upgrades ) is 10 GB really necessary ?
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Are you in Utilities -> Disk Utility ?
<nalioth> 10gb is a comfortable figure.  OSX can be installed on 4gb if one desires
<Red-Sox> I'll go with 5
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: yes
<Red-Sox> I've selected my drive and gone to the partition tab, in the drop down menu gone to 2 partitions, but I'm not sure how to resize it
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Drag it up and down?
* Jordan_U hasn't used Disk Utility in a long time
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: Yeah but that won't work..............and they are both untitled O.o
<Red-Sox> what the heck... nalioth?
<nalioth> how many OS do you have on the machine, Red-Sox ?
<Red-Sox> nalioth: Three, two in parallels
* nalioth is not sure what is on the two partitions
<nalioth> deletion of the partition(s) is usually the best way to start.  not knowing how Apple (or you) has the drive set up makes me advise 'finding out before deletion'
<Red-Sox> nalioth: okay
<Red-Sox> nalioth: How necessary is OS X?
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, There is a hidden EFI partition which I don't think Disk Utility will let you delete anyways, other than that you can safely whipe it clean] 
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Only for Frimware upgrades
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: Hmm well how necessary are firmware upgrades if I'm just using ubuntu?
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Knowing Apple... possibly very important :)
<Red-Sox> Awww man
<Red-Sox> So I need to whipe this HD clean and then create a 5GB partition?
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Firmware upgrades have meant keeping macbooks from melting and added Wireless N capabilities for instance :)
<Red-Sox> and then another partition for ubuntu
<Red-Sox> Oh that's not too important ;)
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, You don't "need" too, but that is the easiest way IMHO
<Red-Sox> Okay, well
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Have you figured out disk utility yet?
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: Well maybe
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, And I guess you can always just use an install on an external drive if you ever need to do a firmware upgrade
<Red-Sox> I don't want to format yet because I'm doing something elseon this computer, besides how will I format it if I'm _using_ this drive
<Red-Sox> Oh dude good idea!
<Red-Sox> I don't even have to install it yet...I can wait for the next firmware update and see if it's necessary
<nalioth> Red-Sox: um, you're supposed to use disk utility from the OSX install cd
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, And OSx is really amazing in that any intel mac install will boot any other intel mac, with no configuration needed, so you can even borrow from someone else
<Red-Sox> Oh great
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, To add to that any mac can be booted holding T making it act exactly like an external Firewire drive, so you can just borrow any intel mac :)
<Red-Sox> SO I should just pop in the i386 alt install
<Red-Sox> and it will boot?
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Yup, and nuke the whole drive :)
<Red-Sox> Great
<Red-Sox> I've backed up everything and consolidated my itunes library to my external drive sooo
<Red-Sox> well it's a little nerve racking but I'll go do it LOL
<nalioth> Red-Sox: huh? alt install?
<Red-Sox> nalioth: Uh I mean the alt. disk
<Red-Sox> I don't like the live cd junk
<nalioth> Red-Sox: you're not listening
* Jordan_U prefers alternate also
<Jordan_U> nalioth, ?
<nalioth> Red-Sox: Disk Utility comes on the OSX Install disc
<Red-Sox> que?
<Red-Sox> Right...
<Jordan_U> nalioth, We have decided to go completely without OSx
<Red-Sox> Yes, and if I need new firmware to install OS X on my external drive
<nalioth> ah, then go for it
<Red-Sox> mk
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, The nice thing about not having OSx is that you don't have to deal with the oddities of having two partition tables ( BIOS and GPT )
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: I don't even know what that means...hahaha
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Dual booting with OSx can let you do strange things, like I currently have 5 *primary* partitions ;)
<Red-Sox> Mk
<nalioth> Jordan_U: that's not strange.  That is "Progress"
<Jordan_U> nalioth, It's not strange if you only have a GPT partition table, when you also have an MBR it gets strange
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: How am I supposed to boot the CD Jordan_U?
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Hold down option or "C"
<Red-Sox> wow im dumb
<nalioth> Red-Sox: dumb isn't 'ignorant'
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, No, just used to PC's :)
<Red-Sox> For some reason the Ubuntu disk showed up as "windows"
<Red-Sox> weird lol
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, That is because according to Apple there are only two operating system in the world, so if it isn't OSx it must be Windows :)
<Red-Sox> haha nice!
<Red-Sox> and flash works with intel macs right nalioth?
<Red-Sox> or Jordan_U
<nalioth> Red-Sox: yes
<Red-Sox> great.
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Yup, intel macs are basically just x86 PC with some oddities here and there
<Red-Sox> like what?
<nalioth> Red-Sox: don't listen to Jordan_U
<nalioth> the 'oddities' he speaks of have no meaning for users
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, True, you will probably never encounter any differences
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, One example is that fan speed settings are changed by talking to the firmware, and they are lost when you suspend or reboot, but unless you are trying to manually control fan speed you won't notice
<Red-Sox> Okay
* Jordan_U likes to have the fans running higher than default to keep his lappy usable on his lap :)
<Red-Sox> all right, and if I want, can I install kubuntu-desktop and only see gnome apps in gnome and only see kde apps in kde?
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Yes, let me grab a link...
<Red-Sox> great
<Red-Sox> man this installer has been at 6% 'please wait' forever
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, I thought there was one @ http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/index.php but I'm not finding it
<Red-Sox> Okay, well I'll figure it out when I get there
<Red-Sox> I've been undecided about which WM I like best for years
<Red-Sox> well I've only been using linux since I was...11? so it's not like years years
* Jordan_U prefers Gnome despite some IMHO idiotic choices
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, How old are you ?
<Red-Sox> uh 14....
<Red-Sox> haha um ok
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: did you ever try XFCE?
<nalioth> tis approved by rodentia
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Yes
<Red-Sox> what's that nalioth?
<Red-Sox> oh I get it
<Red-Sox> haha...not
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: What do you think?
<nalioth> Red-Sox: the XFCE emblem is a rat
<Red-Sox> no yeah I get it now
<Red-Sox> I always laughed at ratpoison because of that
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, It's nice but missing a few features that I like ( that I could get working but I am to lazy )
<Red-Sox> What about e17?
<Red-Sox> all right here comes first boot....
* Red-Sox crosses fingers
<Red-Sox> GRUB is working....
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, I havn't personally seen an e17 setup that I didn't think looked ugly, but all this is personal preference
<Red-Sox> It's booting....
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: Yeah it's a bit bloated I guess
<Red-Sox> oh snap X started!
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Of course, intel provides open source drivers :)
<nalioth> e17 is great
* nalioth uses it
<Red-Sox> haha just saying
<Red-Sox> nalioth: how often?
<Red-Sox> Oh and is there any way to sync two ubuntu desktops to one another (bookmarks...shortcuts, etc)
<nalioth> Red-Sox: um, every nanosecond the computer is on?
* nalioth has used e17 for quite a few months now
<Jordan_U> nalioth, It has a lot of features yet is still pretty light weight which I like, mind giving a screenshot ( given that my only problem with it is getting it to look good ) ?
<Jordan_U> That and backlight controls don't work on my machine by default with e17
<Red-Sox> jeeze these updates are taking FOREVER
<Red-Sox> nalioth: how can you use it every nanosecond the computer is on...it's gotta boot doesn't it ;)
<Red-Sox> yao Jordan_U http://www.desktopian.org/e17/screenshots/e17-theme2.jpg
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Yea, I am not particularly fond of it, I don't like anything flashy but the lack of anti-ailiasing and gradients where applicable is a little jarring for me. Thats why I like clearlooks
<Red-Sox> eh?
<Red-Sox> ooh that looks nice
<Red-Sox> but it doesn't really look that different from regular gnome, Jordan_U
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, Which, clearlooks?
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: Yes.
<Red-Sox> is ubuntuguide.org down?
<nalioth> did you ping it?
<Red-Sox> nope but it won't load on either computer which is realistically what matters to me
<Jordan_U> nalioth, Red-Sox It is not responding to pings
<Jordan_U> Red-Sox, What did you need from it?
<Red-Sox> Jordan_U: um the guide
<Red-Sox> hahaha
<Red-Sox> Seriously though, I need to know how to install flash and whatever else I may be forgetting that you're supposed to do as soon as you install ubuntu
<nalioth> Red-Sox: !flash
<nalioth> Red-Sox: !dvd
<nalioth> Red-Sox: and you've obviously been away a while, because after flash and dvd, everything else is install-on-deman
<nalioth> d
<Red-Sox> oh baby
<Red-Sox> that's pretty sweet
<Red-Sox> no codecs, nalioth?
<nalioth> Red-Sox: intall on demand
<nalioth> Red-Sox: you click "whatever.mp3" and you'll be asked if you want to isntall the codecs
* Jordan_U is sad that it's not called libgimmecodec any more, best name for a library ever :(
<Red-Sox> nalioth: NICE
<jrib> flash gets installed when you visit a page that needs it too
<jrib> in firefox
<Red-Sox> DANG everything seems to be easier than even in OS X
<Red-Sox> what's the package for ms cleartype
<Red-Sox> er
<Red-Sox> truetype*
<Red-Sox> but I found it
<Red-Sox> ooooooh banshee looks nice
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-09-17
<c00l2sv> hi guys
<c00l2sv> nalioth: are you online?
<c00l2sv> or jenda or vorian , somebody from /freenode/staff
<Rafik_> c00l2sv, may be #freenode is the right place.. or #ubuntu-irc
<c00l2sv> Rafik_: thx, but what's the point? The same people under those nicknames should be there too... Just hope they'll wake up soon :)
<elky> why not state what you need so people can look into it in the mean time
<roxan> is this class over?
<c00l2sv> elky: ok, but in the FAQ it says only a someone from freenode stuff can help with it
<c00l2sv> I wanted to ask about cloaks
<c00l2sv> We're a linux user group
<elky> c00l2sv, then that's very much *not* something to use an ubuntu channel for.
<c00l2sv> and also a small community who is doing localizations and other FLOSS supporting activities
<c00l2sv> so I wanted to ask about group cloaks
<c00l2sv> elky: I understand what you're saying
<c00l2sv> but after /who freenode/staff/*
<elky> c00l2sv, then ask in #freenode
<c00l2sv> 3 of the staff members we're found on this channel
<elky> they will look there first, i'll promise you that
<c00l2sv> elky: :) thx for help
<elky> in fact, i know some staffers ignore requests asked in clearly inappropriate places.
<spiritssight> any one able to help get MP3 playing
<jrib> spiritssight: #ubuntu for help
<spiritssight> no one is response to me, and I don't think that any one does not know as well people there are smart :-)
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-09-20
<Traveler4> hello
<psor> ï»¿ï»¿who know possible make plugin for anyone players for vote films from IMDB ???
<ronnald> ×©×××
<ronnald> is this the hebrew support channel for Ubuntu?
<jrib> ronnald: nope
<jrib> !he
<ubot5> ××©××××ª ××©×¤× ××¢××¨××ª ×××××©× ××§××××ª ×××©×ª××©×× ××¢××¨××ª ×× × ××§××:
<ubot5> /join #ubuntu-il
<ronnald> oh, thats ^^;;
#ubuntu-classroom 2008-09-21
 * beagleburt is away: Away at the moment
 * beagleburt is back.
 * beagleburt is away: Away at the moment
<nalioth> beagleburt: can you disable the public away messages?  thanks
<beagleburt> ok sorry
 * beagleburt is back.
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-09-18
<jcastro> 8 minutes until "How to Run a Jam!"
<dholbach> jcastro: I would have dented it, but twitter is a bit screwed
<jcastro> dholbach: I put it on identi.ca
<jcastro> but my gwibber is broken so I had to do it on the website
<dholbach> yeah
<nizarus> strange my gwibber is broken too...
<sebner> twitter seems to be pretty br0ken :P
<jcastro> maybe that's what's breaking gwibber
<jacob> oddly enough gwibber is working here. it usually drops all of my messages
<dholbach> buenos dias!
<jureba> Hola!
<nizarus> salamou alaykoum :)
<jcastro> let's give it a few more minutes for the stragglers
<jcastro> in the meantime introduce yourselves!
 * dholbach is Daniel Holbach from the Ubuntu Berlin team - and we'll have a Jam on 3rd October! :)
<pleia2> I'm Elizabeth Krumbach from the Pennsylvania team :) we're having a mythbuntu jam + doc jam
<jureba> Hi, this is Jose from Madrid, Spain
 * ianto is Christopher Swift of Ubuntu Cymru (Wales) - And our Jam is in the nation's Capital library on 3 - 4 October
<dpm> hi everyone
<jacob> ubuntu-us-ohio here, _still_ figuring out details on a jam in Cleveland
 * jcastro is jorge castro from ubuntu-michigan
<sbc> o/  I'm SÃ¸ren Caspersen from the Danish team. We hope to have a bug jam, but are not entirely sure yet
 * nizarus is Nizar Kerkeni from Tunisian LoCo we are planning to run our first jam 
 * andol is Andreas Olssom from the Swedish LoCo. We will have a (bug) jam the 3rd of October.
<dholbach> james_w: Jam in Bristol?
<james_w> always
<james_w> my life is one big sticky mess
<jcastro> ok, before we start, if you're participating in the global jam, then your loco should be listed here:
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam/Events
<jcastro> please add yourself if you haven't already
<jcastro> ok let's get started!
<jcastro> first of all, welcome!
 * dholbach hugs y'all :-)
<jcastro> This session is for local teams who want to know how to run what we call "Jams"
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams is the URL
<jcastro> for those of you who want to read ahead
<jcastro> So basically, a Jam is when a bunch of ubuntu enthusiasts get together and do something useful for ubuntu.
<jcastro> anything from installfests, bug jams, packaging courses, you name it
<jcastro> last year we had a "Global Bug Jam", which was a big bug triaging session all around the world
<jcastro> that went so well that we decided to do one huge "Global Jam", so LoCos could work on all sorts of things that interest them
<jcastro> So you can do Doc Jams, Testing Jams, Translations Jams, as well as Packaging and Bug Jams.
<jcastro> whatever interests your LoCo
<jcastro> so for example on the sign up page you'll see LoCos signing up for different jams
<jcastro> or even doing their own, like NY is focusing on security, and Pennsylvania is doing mythbuntu
<jcastro> and california still doesn't know what it wants to do. :D
<dholbach> :-)
<jcastro> the most important thing to remember about holding a jam is that the key to success is for the Local Team to get together
<dholbach> if you're a bit bigger team and there's various interests you can also think about nominating people who take care of the organisation of parts of the jam
<jcastro> the purpose is to bring people together in real life and mentor each other
<dholbach> (somebody takes care of Translations and is the "go-to" guy for that, somebody else does bug stuff, etc.)
<jcastro> so if you hold a jam and you feel like you didn't accomplish too much then don't worry about that
<jcastro> because as your LoCo grows you'll get better at that kind of thing
<jcastro> you should concentrate on having a good time and learning
<jcastro> development of your team should be the priortiy
<jcastro> ok, so, since lots of people have been running Jams now we have put together a list of tips and tricks
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams
<jcastro> Usually the tough part is getting a venue
<vubuntor6765> hello
<jcastro> if you're participating in the global jam you hopefully have a venue already picked out.
<jcastro> This can be difficult, one person wrote in to me that he couldn't find a place because they needed X amount of people, but he couldn't get X amount of people to show up without a venue!
<dholbach> and if you have just a few people participating you might want to consider inviting people to your house... Ubuntu people usually behave themselves. :-)
<jcastro> Right, another good place is your local library
<jcastro> or civic center or something.
<ianto> I second the library, it was what the Welsh team is using! :)
<afterlastangel> tomorrow is Software Freedom Day
<ianto> s/was/is/g
<brobostigon> :)
<jcastro> so they key parts to the venue would be normal things that geeks need
<jcastro> so power and internet
<jcastro> a projector is also useful because you can do tutorials and things on the screen while other people see what you are doing
<jcastro> for bug jams we keep a projector handy
<jacob> and a supply of caffeine? ;)
<jcastro> so when a person get's stuck on a bug we put it up on the big screen and discuss it
<jcastro> this is useful because the experienced people end up telling their knowledge to the new people.
<jcastro> and something like bug triaging is a skill that you forget if you're not doing it all the time
<jcastro> so it helps the experienced people stay sharp
<jcastro> because humans are good at becoming experts at something if we teach someone else to do it
<jcastro> and yes, jacob brings up a good point
<jcastro> you should plan for sustinance
<jcastro> so if you're having a 12 hour jam you should plan in for a lunch/dinner somewhere
<brobostigon> food and drink.
<jcastro> right
<jcastro> for example like most LoCos, ours does not function without beer.
<jcastro> so you need to plan for these things ahead of time
<jcastro> If you meet at a local restaurant (which is commong), you'll want to get reservations, etc.
<jcastro> we always have to ask for certain tables with power access, etc.
<jcastro> ok, so that's all I have for venues
<jcastro> anyone have any tips to share?
<brobostigon> facilities, is you have disabled members.
<jcastro> ah, that's a good point
<jcastro> accessability is important for a bunch of things
<jcastro> like, if you have your meeting in the smoking session of a pub but you have 3 underage non-smokers
<jcastro> that would affect your attendance. :D
<dholbach> hahaha
<jcastro> A long time ago there was this story of this guy who got invited to speak at LinuxWorld but they wouldn't let him in because he was underage
<jcastro> but anyway ...
<dholbach> if you can, try to plan in enough time for everything, 2-3 hours might be just enough to get to know each other, get everybody set up and a quick introduction :)
<brobostigon> we have a member who requires a wheelchair, so venue wheelchair access.
<jcastro> also don't forget other supplies
<jcastro> people will always need power strips, ubuntu CDs, etc.
<jcastro> you'll never know when that ethernet cable might come in handy!
<dholbach> I take with me an extra harddisk with Karmic ISOs for the Test Jam part
<jcastro> ok, after you have a place let's talk about promotion a bit
<dholbach> somebody is going to bring a local mirror on his laptop
<jcastro> this is basically telling people in your area about the event
<jcastro> this involves mailing other mailing lists
<jcastro> perhaps contacting your local lug
<jcastro> putting up flyers at the local PC shops
<dholbach> the Berlin team is also mailing local Debian developers
<jcastro> or whatever other creative thing you can think of
<dholbach> TV Ads, Magazine Ads, everything is OK ;-)
<jcastro> heh
<jcastro> so hopefully by now people in your local area kno0w about the global jam
<jcastro> but it's never too late to keep sending out stuff
<dholbach> and try to be precise about what you're going to do there
<dholbach> probably the first question you're going to get is: will you help us fix our Ubuntu installation?
<dholbach> or: is this tutorials and workshops and stuff?
<dholbach> better be clear about hands-on-making-ubuntu-better
<dholbach> :)
<jcastro> right
<jcastro> although invariably someone always shows up needing help
<jcastro> which is fine too of course
<dholbach> sure
<jcastro> also, the time leading up to the jam is a good time to prepare attendees
<jcastro> if you're doing bug stuff and stuff you'll want to make sure people have launchpad accounts before hand
<dholbach> and gobby installed :)
<jcastro> if 30 people show up and they all need lp accounts it could eat up precious together-time
<jcastro> so usually reminding people is a good idea
<ianto> Some venues may need for example, a library card to enter ^
<jcastro> dholbach: oh, we should add gobby to the Jams prereq section
<jcastro> ianto: good point
<dholbach> jcastro: on it
<jcastro> so there's all sorts of ways to promote stuff
<jcastro> anyone have any other  tips?
<jcastro> the wiki page lists obvious things like twitter/facebook, etc.
<jacob> perhaps video streaming parts of the event? ustream.tv/mogulus are nice
<jacob> s/mogulus/livestream/
<jcastro> right
<jcastro> also, lots of pictures
<pleia2> we have a lot of local tech groups and non-profits that don't have a linux focus, but have been interested in events, contacting them with event info is great
<jcastro> we like to have at least one photo per loco who participates to make a big collage
<jcastro> pleia2: yeah, events like this are good for people who go to computer groups who have heard of that ubuntu thing but would  like more information
<dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuGlobalJam/Stories
<dholbach> ^ we want you on there :)
<jcastro> the part after the jam is also important
<jcastro> we like to see planet flooded with stories and pictures of people having a good time
<jcastro> one thing that we just added is the Testing Part of the Jams:
<jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Testing
<jcastro> if you have a LiveCD of Karmic (the beta will be out the thursday before the jam)
<jcastro> you can boot it up, and right from there do a submission to the hardware database
<jcastro> and run the little tests and all that
<jcastro> this is very important because the weekend after beta we have tons of people all over the world gathering together
<jcastro> and since it's really easy, just booting into a liveCD, perhaps it's something you can use to warm up new people with
<dholbach> and we have a lot of test cases, so everybody can grab a few: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing
<dholbach> if you have a few spare USB keys, you can easily use usb-creator to create live-usb-sticks and ask people to test with them
<jcastro> especially with the fresh beta, that will be real handy!
<dholbach> yep
<jcastro> since people will be bringing all sorts of hardware
<jcastro> and a livecd won't break their existing computer
<jcastro> so it's a nice low-barrier/high-win of awesome.
<dholbach> AWESOME
<jcastro> do we have anymore tips?
<jcastro> I think we've covered most of the things you need
<jcastro> anyone have questions or comments?
<dholbach> are there any concerns you still have or things you're unsure about?
<jcastro> any comments from the last jam for those of you who have participated in the past?
<dholbach> or maybe what kind of jams did you do the last time and what are you trying out now?
<jcastro> beuller?
<dholbach> brobostigon, pleia2, ianto, dpm, sbc, jureba, nizarus: you guys are all set?
<dholbach> or is there anything that's still unclear or problematic?
<ianto> dholbach: Yep
<brobostigon> dholbach: yes.
<nizarus> o/
<dholbach> all good... all jams planned? :)
<dpm> all set
<dholbach> any great tips or tricks from you?
<sbc> dholbach: My biggest problem is getting people to show up. A jam with just me will be kind of boring. Hopefully people will respond to my mails / forum posts going out this weekend.
<dholbach> or what are you most excited about?
<dholbach> sbc: try the "contact team" feature of LP
<dholbach> sbc: and mention that there's beer after the event!
<sbc> dholbach: We have a fine working mail list, problem is if people have the time / want to. But I hope so. And beer alwas works as a lure ;)
<vojtech_t> i have a question. is it good idea to run jam only virtually -- via audio/videoconference (ekiga), irc or something like this?
<andol> sbc: Well, if nothing else, you'r welcome to LinkÃ¶ping :)
<brobostigon> dholbach: if i can attend ubuntu-cym's, i will do beer organising, :)
<ianto> Club Ubuntu did that last year ^
<dholbach> vojtech_t: sure... if there's no way around it, you can do that
<vojtech_t> our problem is, that there are about 10 interested in Jam in the Czech rep. bud they are from six cities/towns
<dholbach> generally it's just preferrable to meet up and get to know each other
<vojtech_t> s/10/10 people/g
<dholbach> it's so much easier to have a chat and help each other when you can just have a look at somebody else's screen
<dholbach> vojtech_t: are those 10 people spread over the whole country?
<vojtech_t> unfortunately yes
<dholbach> ah I see - that can be difficult then
<dholbach> although... there's always a good reason to meet in Prague, isn't there? :-)
<ianto> Oh a question, how late do we leave it until we go out for a drink without feeling guilty? :)
<nizarus> what if we havent an experianced user ?
<dholbach> ianto: in Berlin we plan to be around from 11 to 19
<vojtech_t> dholbach: Prague isn't good idea... I hear them all saying "oh no, everything is in Prague..." (I'm from Prague)
<dholbach> nizarus: that's a good question
<dholbach> vojtech_t: I see what you mean :)
<dholbach> nizarus: if you head to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams you can take a look at the top bar there (Testing, Translations, Bug, etc.)
<nizarus> yes dholbach
<brobostigon> budweiser budvar, rocks.
<dholbach> I think at least Translations and Testing should be self-explanatory and easy to prepare
<dholbach> I agree that Packaging without having an expert might be a bit slow and complicated
<dholbach> but I guess the rest should be easier
<dholbach> if the documentation doesn't make sense
<dholbach> come and talk to dpm, jcastro and me :)
<dholbach> and mdke and davmor :)
<nizarus> in each cases having tutors is recommended
<jcastro> nizarus: if you don't have an experienced packager then don't do a packaging jam, I would start with a test jam and live CDs
<YoBoY> dholbach: come where? :p
<dholbach> YoBoY: hm?
<dholbach> ah ok :)
<YoBoY> for the doc
<dholbach> just talk to us on IRC or mail us
<dholbach> and we can improve the docs
<YoBoY> we have shared some ideas last time, but i don't know yet what to do exactly
<dholbach> YoBoY: what are you thinking about?
<YoBoY> upgrading doc for karmic, erasing old docs (related to no more supported releases), making wanted pages, ...
<dholbach> ah ok
<dholbach> well there's a bunch of tasks at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Jams/Docs#Tasks
<sbc> andol: Thanks, but 5 hours each way is a bit much for transport time :) If you had jams in MalmÃ¶ or Lund that might be closer.
<YoBoY> ho this page is more complete than last time i saw it
<dholbach> YoBoY: mdke put a lot of work into it
<YoBoY> i see, great work
<jcastro> ok well, that's pretty much it
<jcastro> we got through a bunch of it quickly
<jcastro> as always, feel free to ping myself, dpm, or dholbach if you have questions
<dholbach> or ask in #ubuntu-locoteams
<ianto> jcastro: off-toopic, but can I ask what happened to yesterday's meeting? there were lots of us waiting in #ubuntu-meeting and nothing happened
<dholbach> there's a lot of experienced loco team contacts in there :)
<dholbach> rock on everybody!
<jcastro> ianto: we rescheduled it for next week because no one showed up in #ubuntu-locoteams
<jcastro> ianto: those meetings are in #ubuntu-locoteams afaik
<jcastro> hmm, now I am confused
<jcastro> ah no, they're in here
<ianto> jcastro: You emailed saying there was an overwhelming turnout and jono tweeted -meeting
<ianto> about 10 mins before
<jcastro> -meeting? I did
<jcastro> sigh.
<jcastro> that was a mistake on my part.
<jcastro> ok, next week for sure
<jcastro> in here.
<jcastro> ianto: sorry about that. :-/
<ianto> OK no problem ^
<jureba> *
<wubbbi> Hello :)
 * funkyHat dances
 * ikt dances
<sistpoty> hiho
 * sistpoty just quickly finishes a mail and will then start, ok?
<ikt> ok :)
* pleia2 changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Packaging/Training || Now: Fri Sep 18 @ 19:00 UTC: Fixing FTBFS; Upcoming: Thu Oct 1 @ 06:00 UTC: Ubuntu Development Q&A || Run 'date -u' in a terminal to find out the UTC time
<sistpoty> so who's around for the FTBFS session?
 * Rail is
<sistpoty> thanks pleia2
<pleia2> sure thing :)
 * norax_ is
 * sebner waves 
 * funkyHat is ^Â·^
 * ikt dances
<ikt> i mean hi
<sistpoty> is geser around as well? :)
 * funkyHat dances on ikt 
<geser> sistpoty: yes
<sistpoty> excellent, then let's get started
<geser> I'm already looking for a good example
<sistpoty> :)
<sistpoty> first off, our recent archive rebuild showed a lot of packages, that fail to build from source (that's what FTBFS stands for)
<sistpoty> you can see the results at http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909.html
<geser> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/32020496/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-i386.libofa_0.9.3-3_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz looks like a good candidate
<sistpoty> yes, let's take this one
<sistpoty> first off, a number of packages have already been fixed on the list
<sistpoty> so please first check if the version in the archive is not already newer than the one in this list
<sistpoty> however there are more good sources to look at in this list...
<sistpoty> the "PTS" link goes straight to the debian package tracking system
<dhillon-v10> hi all how are you guys doing?
<sistpoty> maybe unstable already has a newer version
<sistpoty> the "BTS" link goes to the debian bug tracking system
<sistpoty> eventually there's already a bug and/or a patch there
<sistpoty> let's check
<c_korn> sorry, I am late. which bug are you on currently ?
<RoAkSoAx> c_korn, http://launchpadlibrarian.net/32020496/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-i386.libofa_0.9.3-3_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<sistpoty> c_korn: libofa from http://people.ubuntuwire.org/~wgrant/rebuild-ftbfs-test/test-rebuild-20090909.html
<c_korn> thanks
<dhillon-v10> quit
<sistpoty> now in this case, we're lucky, because at http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=504902 there already is a patch :)
<stlsaint> lo all
<geser> one should also look at the bugs in LP for that package in case an other contributor fixed it already and waits on sponsoring
<sistpoty> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libofa/+bugs
<sistpoty> maybe we'll pick another package, where it's up to us to do the work?
 * sistpoty looks for a good one
<geser> like http://launchpadlibrarian.net/31983196/buildlog_ubuntu-karmic-i386.libcommoncpp2_1.7.3-1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz?
 * funkyHat doesn't see where libofa has been fixed ?
<geser> funkyHat: there is a Debian bug with a patch which "just" need to be packaged and sponsored into Ubuntu
<sistpoty> geser: that one is excellent :)
<DasEi> or tor..
<sistpoty> funkyHat: here: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=504902
<geser> while in itself easy to do (and should be done) it's not an good example how to fix it yourself
<funkyHat> Ok. Perhaps I will have a go at fixing that one then, should be good practice
<sistpoty> ok, so at first we'll be looking again at BTS and PTS, and at lp bugs of libcommoncpp2
<sebner> funkyHat: ping me and I'll sponsor it then
<geser> sebner: to main?
<sebner> geser: ah, didn't check where it's based :\
<sistpoty> so no fixes in BTS, no newer version in unstable and no open bugs in launchpad
<sistpoty> for libcommoncpp2
<sistpoty> I guess I could offer sponsoring to main for FTBFSes ;)
<sistpoty> however there's another thing we could check for libcommoncpp2
<sistpoty> if you type apt-cache showsrc libcommoncpp2
<sistpoty> you'll see a field called Vcs-Browser: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-voip/libcommoncpp2/?op=log
<funkyHat> (I'm not sure if there's a format I should use for the bug report, but I won't disturb the class any more)
<sistpoty> and Vcs-Svn: svn://svn.debian.org/pkg-voip/libcommoncpp2/trunk/
<geser> (or use the links on the PTS page for libcommoncpp2)
<sistpoty> funkyHat: along the lines "patch to fix FTBFS", please subscribe me if you've got a patch ;)
<sistpoty> at this link (or the VCS link from PTS) is where development of the debianization happens
<sistpoty> at a glance, there doesn't seem to be anything related to the FTBFS
<sistpoty> finally, let's grab the sourcepackage and get working
<sistpoty> while the source package downloads, let's try to see where the first error is that gcc reported
<sistpoty> to make it more clear, I've pastebinned it (as taken from the build log)
<sistpoty> http://paste.ubuntu.com/273724/
<sistpoty> so we'll need to look add ciddr.cpp, lines 205 and 335
<sistpoty> (they reside in the "src" subdirectory)
<sistpoty> everyone got that file open right now?
<funkyHat> yep
<sistpoty> I've pastebinned the relevant part again: http://paste.ubuntu.com/273729/
<sistpoty> now gcc tells us about an "invalid conversion from 'const char*' to 'char*'"
<sistpoty> a const pointer means, that you cannot change the object (memory) it points to
<sistpoty> in c++ (and in c as well) you can only get rid of that const by casting
<sistpoty> however casting often enough is not safe
<sistpoty> e.g. if the memory is read-only memory (e.g. if it's a string constant like const char *s = "hello world";)
<sistpoty> if you'd cast away the const for read only memory, the program would simply segfault when trying to write to it
<sistpoty> the posix c string functions are a little bit nasty... you pass them a const char *
<sistpoty> and you obtain a char * out of these, pointing to the memory that the parameter referred to
<sistpoty> erm, I'm referring to strrchr for example (strchr and a few other follow that scheme)
<sistpoty> this means, they implicitely get rid of the const (which might be dangerous)
<sistpoty> in c there is sadly no alternative to it
<sistpoty> however in c++, you can overload functions
<sistpoty> and that's one of the gcc-4.4 changes
<sistpoty> there exist two overloaded strrchr functions
<sistpoty> one which gets a char * as parameter and returns a char *
<sistpoty> and one which gets a const char * as parameter and returns a const char *
<sistpoty> gcc then selects the correct one based on the parameter passed into it (not by the return type)
<sistpoty> so with gcc-4.4 you can no longer accidentally get rid of the const by calling strrchr
<sistpoty> in this example (line 205) , cp is declared const, hence the return value (ep) must also be const
<sistpoty> however as ep is written to later, we cannot simply declare it const as well
<sistpoty> let's try to see what the entire IPV4Cidr::set method does
<sistpoty> the only place, where ep is written to, is straight afterwards, so let's take a closer look at this snippet
<sistpoty> http://paste.ubuntu.com/273732/
<sistpoty> still following me so far?
<c_korn> yes
<funkyHat> Just about!
<jureba> ya
<sistpoty> ok, good
<sistpoty> this snippet tries to find the last occurance of a '/' in cp
<geser> in case you missed this write access, gcc will inform you during your test build (-> FTBFS :)
<sistpoty> and then sets it to '\0'
<sistpoty> which means it simply truncates cp at (i.e. before) the last '/'.
<sistpoty> now comes the fun: this means that it writes to cp, which is passed as *const* into the method. tststs
<sistpoty> at this point, we can either choose the unelegant and simple way, or try to get it right (which might mean pain, pain, pain)
<geser> it looks like we found a bug
<sistpoty> the simple way would be to assume that it worked before, and obviously the const'ness of cp is a red herring
<sistpoty> so we can cast it away
<sistpoty> with: const_cast<char *>(whatwewanttocast)
<sistpoty> or in this case line 205: ep = strchr(const_cast<char *>(cp), '/');
<geser> sistpoty: from a look at this function, should line 211 (cp = cbuf) be moved before line 202?
<sistpoty> geser: that could be
<sistpoty> however the program could also require the side effect that cp is in fact changed
<sistpoty> (that's always hard to judge from a glimpse)
<geser> that's a problem :(
<sistpoty> yes
<geser> but anyway: this function doesn't seem to the right thing in case someone passes a string of e.g. "192.168.1/24"
<sbeattie> geser: indeed.
<sistpoty> yes, then it segfaults
<sistpoty> of course if you're unsure, there's always one very good option to choose:
<geser> sistpoty: I mean even if it's passed in a memory from e.g. strcpy
<sistpoty> ask upstream :)
<geser> the function takes our string, copies it (line 200), then strips it off at '/' and fills up the copy (still with the '/' with ".0" till it has 4 octects
<geser> when now someone passes "192.168.1/24" it turns cp into "192.168.1" and makes cbuf contain "192.168.1/24.0"
<sistpoty> yes, that looks like it
<geser> don't know what inet_aton will make out of it
<sistpoty> (parse it and convert it to a non-string representation)
<geser> (and probably fail at the parsing)
<geser> this is probably now a good time to look if upstream released a new version and look if it's fixed there else contact upstream with what we found out and let upstream handle it
<c_korn> their homepage announces: GNU Common C++ 2.0 Beta Candidate
<c_korn> http://www.gnu.org/software/commoncpp/
<sistpoty> hm... has anyone found a download link for the 2.0 beta yet?
 * sistpoty only sees 1.7.3
 * geser too
<sistpoty> and cvs seems to be 404
<c_korn> seems so
<funkyHat> ftp://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/ftp.gnu.org/gnu/commoncpp/
 * BlackFate away
<sistpoty> ah, so it's called ucommon nowadays?
<sistpoty> indeed it is, and I've also found our nice method again in the ucommon source package
<sistpoty> it's in src/socket.cpp, line 788
<sistpoty> which a) has majored a bit, and b) seems to confirm geser's first idea how to fix it
<sistpoty> <geser> sistpoty: from a look at this function, should line 211 (cp = cbuf) be moved before line 202?
<sistpoty> so the string as is should be copied to cbuf, and only cbuf should get adjusted
<sistpoty> let's try to do this
<sistpoty> so we change line 205 to      ep = strchr(cbuf, '/');
<sistpoty> any objection?
<sistpoty> anyone still around? :)
<c_korn> here
 * geser is
<c_korn> just let's try if it builds :)
<funkyHat> here, but this is over my head, I'll try to follow what I understand :)
<sistpoty> well, for sure it won't because we didn't adjust the error in line 305 yet
<geser> as one has seen here fixing FTBFS trains ones detective skill :)
<sistpoty> funkyHat: just ask if anythings unclear
<sistpoty> let's take a look at line 305
<sistpoty> any suggestions how to fix this?
<geser> why does it need fixing? I seem to overlook something there
<c_korn> line 335 ?
<sistpoty> c_korn: yes, in the same file
<sistpoty> cidr.cpp:335: error: invalid conversion from 'const char*' to 'char*'
<sistpoty> (from the original build log)
<geser> line 335 makes more sense
<sistpoty> erm, sorry :)
<c_korn> hm, ep gets written again
<sistpoty> looks like a copy&paste bug to me :)
<sistpoty> so anyone with a suggestion?
<geser> and when you compare the function name and what it does with the one we just fixed, then the fix should be pretty obvious
<nicolasvw> copy and paste fix ? ;)
<sistpoty> nicolasvw: righto, let's use the buffer again
<sistpoty> and finally now it's time to do a test-build
<sistpoty> let's add a changelog entry and build it in pbuilder
<sistpoty> hint: if you're working on a package, which might need a number of patches
<sistpoty> it might be easier to install the build-dependencies on your system
<sistpoty> and do a fakeroot make -f debian/rules binary
<sistpoty> to test-build
<sistpoty> as this can then (ideally) reuse the already built files and will only built your new changes (and dependencies) again
<sistpoty> -- i.e. if the upstream build system supports it
<sistpoty> of course as last action, you should then always test-build it in a clean (=pbuilder) environment
<sistpoty> so anyone with a buildresult yet?
<geser> an other option is to start directly in a pbuilder (pbuilder login) but one has to don't forget to copy the changes outside the pbuilder before one exits it
<nicolasvw> (or use the --bindmounts option to pbuilder)
<nicolasvw> ?
<geser> what I currently do is using a pbuilder hook to get a shell if pbuilder fails so I can investigate or test more changes
<geser> doesn't pdebuild use it? never used pdebuild
<sistpoty> heh, me neither... (as I once wrote my own pdebuild alike variant *g*)
<geser> one has to find the way which works for one the best (I prefer not to pollute my host system with -dev packages)
<sistpoty> ok, it did build for me
<sistpoty> so here's another thing that can be totally different
<sistpoty> let's see if the package has a patch system. if so, we should add the fix as a patch, otherwise we can simply leave it as is
 * sistpoty usually looks if there's a directory called debian/patches, but what-patch of ubuntu-dev-tools also should give you an answer
<sistpoty> (is that the right command *g*)
<sistpoty> in this case, it uses dpatch
<sistpoty> so here's my tricky way to apply it
<sistpoty> as I already added a changelog entry, I now have got 2 .dsc files lying around
<sistpoty> and can simple debdiff between these two
<sistpoty> this however means that my changelog entry (which I don't want in there) is also in the debdiff
<sistpoty> but with filterdiff, it can easily get excluded:
<sistpoty> debdiff libcommoncpp2_1.7.3-1.dsc libcommoncpp2_1.7.3-1ubuntu1.dsc | filterdiff -x "libcommoncpp2-1.7.3/debian/*"
<sistpoty> this one gives me the patch, which I'm putting into debian/patches
<c_korn> hah, cheater. I never thought of that :)
<sistpoty> now I've also need to add it to debian/patches/00list, so that it will get applied
<sistpoty> and being a good citizen I should add a descriptive header to it
<c_korn> but the patch is now already applied to the sources. do you revert it manually ?
<sistpoty> either that, or I unpack the old sources (depending on how much unwanted damage I did to the sources)
<c_korn> ok
<sistpoty> however how you do it is pretty much your choice, you could also use dpatch-edit-patch
<sistpoty> however after manually fiddling with patch systems, I usually do another test-build (one never knows *g*)
 * c_korn usually sets up a git repository in the sources to get those patches :)
<sistpoty> but what you should always do (after your final build) is to debdiff between the old and the new dsc file
<sistpoty> that way you can make sure that only changes you really want are in the new version
<sistpoty> should I write something about adding a debian/changelog entry, or is this clear for everyone
<sistpoty> ?
<c_korn> clear to me (dholbach explained it in a session)
<sistpoty> so what's left to do...
<sistpoty> testing your fix is always a good idea
<sistpoty> so you should install the resulting package and test it
<sistpoty> in this case its a library, so testing it gets a little bit hard
<sistpoty> but you should install it, and check the file contents
<sistpoty> eventually a lintian run on the resulting binaries might also be a good idea...
<sistpoty> however don't try to fix these bugs, but rather look out for really critical stuff
<sistpoty> (happened to me recently, that after a no-change-rebuild the resulting package was empty, of course that a must to get this right then)
<sistpoty> looks all good here :)
<sistpoty> so now it's time to upload it to the archive, or (if you don't have powers to do so) to request sponsorship
<sistpoty> but wait, we're not yet done...
<c_korn> what about update-maintainer ?
<sistpoty> c_korn: of course, mea culpa
<sistpoty> (I silently did that for my package when dpkg-buildpackage bailed out)
<sistpoty> however ther's more to do
<sistpoty> forwarding the bug and the fix
<sistpoty> as the same version is also in debian, I'm forwarding it there.
<sistpoty> geser: anything else that should get mentioned?
<sistpoty> any questions from anyone?
<geser> nothing missed (or I missed it too because of the routine in doing it (like calling update-maintainer))
<sistpoty> heh
<sistpoty> oh, I missed an important thing
<sistpoty> as you've seen, fixing a FTBFS bug is not always trivial
<sistpoty> so if you've come to a point, where you have no clue, it's a good idea to paste the build error (with a little bit of context) and the failing function in pastebin
<sistpoty> and ask around (for example at #ubuntu-motu)
<sistpoty> I'm quite sure, there'll always be someone in knowledge of the fix around, and most of the time will also give you an answer ;)
<sistpoty> so concluding, I'd like to invite you all to #ubuntu-motu now, to get practice from the theoretical lesson right now
<sistpoty> as a side note, until I'm too tired I'll be happy to sponsor fixes for FTBFS bugs ;)(
<sistpoty> geser: oh, did you upload libcommoncpp2 already or did anyone else or should I do it?
<funkyHat> sistpoty: good timing :)
 * DasEi lacks c- / gcc knowledge for that
<funkyHat> I just subscribed you to my libofa bug
<geser> sistpoty: no, I didn't upload it
<geser> DasEi: there are also other FTBFS, if you are more familiar with e.g. perl look at those
<sistpoty> geser: ok, then I'll uload it in 5 minutes (/me needs a short break first *g*)
<funkyHat> I didn't really manage to follow the bug-fixing on this one as I don't know any c++, but I learnt stuff anyway :)
<sistpoty> well, I'm already writing code in c++ since 7 years or so, but I still don't understand it yet :P
<funkyHat> :D
<c_korn> thank you sistpoty and geser for the great lesson. I am going for some bug hunting now :)
<sistpoty> thanks everyone for coming!
<sistpoty> excellent c_korn:
<funkyHat> I'm going to wait for my first patch to be looked at before I try anything else, in case I got something wrong. Don't want to keep doing the wrong thing if I did :)
<geser> funkyHat: not everyone is that hard like that one, some are only applying a patch from Debian (like libofa) or adding a const for the same error like in the libcommoncpp2 case. you still can try and abort if it gets to hard
<funkyHat> geser: right, and I just fixed the libofa one, but I want to check I got it right, rather than fix another one wrong as well :)
<geser> funkyHat: not that bad, missed one thing
<geser> forget to call update-maintainer
<funkyHat> Ah
<funkyHat> Now I should debuild -S again, then debdiff again?
<c_korn> eh, gambas2 FTBFS but the same version is already in karmic ?
<geser> funkyHat: yes
<funkyHat> geser: I guessed and did it already :)
<geser> c_korn: the toolchain or one of the build-dependecies changed since it got build.
<geser> that's the reason behind the archive test rebuild: to know that it still builds (we already know that it build (or not build) in the past)
<c_korn> ah, ok
<geser> imagine a SRU (or security upload) you want to do later just to find out that you have to first fix a FTBFS too
<c_korn> right
<c_korn> there is a newer version in debian but the changelog does not mention changes regarding the FTBFS bug: http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/g/gambas2/gambas2_2.15.2-1/changelog
<geser> c_korn: AFAIR this specific problem only appears since g++ 4.4 with eglibc 2.10 (Debian still has g++ 4.3 as default and eglibc 2.10 is only in experimental, so there was no test build with it in Debian yet)
<c_korn> hm, so what should I do now? file a sync request (which would require a FFe first) and patch it then ? or just patch it and it has to be merged later with debian in karmic+1 ?
<geser> c_korn: if there is no good reason for the new upstream version, patch it
<c_korn> ok
<c_korn> hm, another invalid conversion in line 5. and I cannot constify it. http://pastebin.com/d3445f605
<c_korn> I better ask in #ubuntu-motu
<sistpoty> yep, let's move to -motu
#ubuntu-classroom 2009-09-19
<Ekushey> Happy Software Freedom Day everyone!
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-09-20
<amason> FusionX: you wait for a class to start
<qwebirc81833> whoami
<FusionX> how do i get taught?
<FusionX> how do i get taught?
<FusionX> i want to get taught.
<FusionX> how do i get taught?
<cjohnston> Pedro?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Ubuntu App Developer Week Session - Instructor: TBD
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Current Session: Ubuntu App Developer Week Session - Instructor: TBD
* cjohnston changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming  Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-09-21
<krogers> hello
<krogers> anyone here?
<njm> Hey Guys, since I updated my Ubuntu 10.04 Remix on my netbook, my 3G USB Dongle doesn't work anymore...  It says: waiting for usb device to settle in dmesg.  Any ideas
<jsimmons> #ubuntu
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-09-23
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Packaging Training Session  - Current Session: Ubuntu Distributed Development Intro + Q&A - Instructors: james_w
<james_w> hi everyone
<james_w> who's here for my session?
<james_w> anyone know if we can turn off +m in here?
<mhall119> woops, I don't think that was right
<james_w> thanks, that's better
<james_w> everyone is free to talk in here, I think a Q&A doesn't need to be split over two channels
<mhall119> no, I don't think it is
<w1ngnut> better for me too
<mhall119> oh, ok, maybe I did do it right
<mhall119> just saw a bunch of messages I wasn't expecting
<mhall119> anyway, carry on
<james_w> thanks mhall119 
<james_w> ok, let's try again
<james_w> who's here for the session?
<james_w> and tell me if you know anything about the topic at all, so that I know where to begin
<w1ngnut> james_w: I'm here for the session. I know what I've read on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment
<james_w> that's a good start
<james_w> w1ngnut: is there anything in particular you would like to ask about?
<w1ngnut> james_w: no, just do whatever you have in mind. I have experience with development tools and vcs but never applied any of these knowledge's using ubuntu tools.
<james_w> ok
<james_w> well, as you will have read, UDD is an effort to bring the power of version control and advanced development tools to Ubuntu development
<james_w> the aim is to make Ubuntu development more efficient, easier to learn, and less frustrating
<james_w> that's a large undertaking, and we can't do it all at once though
<james_w> so the focus so far has been on making it possible to use version control to do packaging work, and abstract away a lot of the tools that you used to have to learn to do packaging on Debian/Ubuntu
<james_w> this was mainly in the form of a tool called bzr-builddeb that is a bzr plugin that knows about packages, and provides several commands to do packaging in bzr
<james_w> built on top of this is a service that imports all of Debian and Ubuntu's source packages in to bzr
<james_w> this allows you to work on any package in Ubuntu using bzr, rather than exclusively the traditional tools, or whatever VCS someone decided to use for that package
<james_w> so, if you want to patch a package, or work on a new upstream version, or just look at the code, you can start with "bzr branch lp:ubuntu/<source package>"
<james_w> e.g. bzr branch lp:ubuntu/bzr-builddeb for the bzr-builddeb package itself
<james_w> or you can do lp:debian/*
<james_w> and other releases are available too, e.g. lp:ubuntu/lucid/* and lp:debian/lenny/*
<james_w> (note that lp:debian/* won't actually branch the whole of Debian)
<james_w> there is more documentation on how to do this at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Documentation
<james_w> and we would love some help in improving what is there, and providing how-tos for specific tasks
<james_w> now that we have all of that in place we are also starting to work on projects that build on top of it, such as recipes in Launchpad
<james_w> a Launchpad recipe is a way of specifying how to merge some bzr branches together and building a package out of the result
<james_w> this can be as simple as specifying lp:ubuntu/something to build the latest in Ubuntu, but where it gets really interesting is when you merge branches together
<james_w> for instance you could merge the trunk branch of a project with the packaging in order to build the code that the developers of that project wrote today
<james_w> and Launchpad allows you to schedule the builds to happen once a day, so that you can always have the latest code running on your machine
<james_w> this is useful for developers, but also makes it much easier for people to get involved in testing and bug reporting
<james_w> plus, it can be useful for triagers too, as they can point to one of these and ask people to test with that, so that they can know the bug still exists in the latest code
<james_w> this feature is just starting to become available in Launchpad, and we don't know all of the useful things that could be done with it, so we're interested in ideas you have for what you would like to do with this
<james_w> any questions?
<james_w> this is supposed to be a Q&A :-)
<james_w> ok, if no-one has any questions then I guess we'll wrap up
<james_w> Feel free to ask me questions at other times though
<james_w> I'm usually around on IRC during the week
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-09-25
<tomswartz07> exit
<ibuclaw> Hi DiegoTc
<DiegoTc> hi ibuclaw
<ibuclaw> DiegoTc, what will you be covering?
<DiegoTc> ibuclaw, the basic of c++(cout,cin, the if and else, the switch)
<ibuclaw> STL...
<ibuclaw> yucky... :-)
<DiegoTc> ibuclaw, whats STL?
<ibuclaw> C++ Standard Template Library
<Bodsda> hey DiegoTc
<DiegoTc> hi Bodsda
<DiegoTc> okay it is time
<Bodsda> w00t
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Beginners Team Dev Academy - Current Session: C++ for Beginners - Instructors: DiegoTc
<DiegoTc> hi guys
<DiegoTc> I am going to start with the C++ for Beginners
<DiegoTc> if you had any question just let me know
<DiegoTc> and i will try to answer it :)
<DiegoTc> okay so lets see, did everyone install the build-essential?
<DiegoTc> and the codeblocks?
<DiegoTc> okay, if you haven't installed codeblocks we can use gedit for writting our code
<DiegoTc> opensorcerer, codeblocks it is not necessary
<DiegoTc> i recommend because its a great IDE for beginning on c++
<DiegoTc> if you are going to use codeblocks create a new file
<DiegoTc> and lets save it with the name of helloworld.cpp
<DiegoTc> if you are going to use gedit, les open also a new file and save it with the same name helloworld.cpp
<DiegoTc> did everyone did this?
<DiegoTc> okay
<DiegoTc> so know we are going to type this
<DiegoTc> #include <iostream>
<DiegoTc> I will explain what the iostream means
<DiegoTc> Carroarmato0, yes
<DiegoTc> for c++ the comments consist this way
<DiegoTc> /
<DiegoTc> /
<DiegoTc> "//"
<DiegoTc> with out the ""
<DiegoTc> okay http://paste.ubuntu.com/500372/
<DiegoTc> thats the code of the hello world
<DiegoTc> copy it or type it  :)
<DiegoTc> and in some seconds we will compile it and i will explain it
<DiegoTc> !q
<DiegoTc> !question
<DiegoTc> I am having a little trouble with the ClassBot so lets answer this questions
<DiegoTc> <Mohan_chml> QUESTION: why we need "using namespace std;"
<ClassBot> Mohan_chml asked: why we need "using namespace std;"
<DiegoTc> namespace definition=is an abstract container providing context for the items (names, or technical terms, or words) it holds and allowing disambiguation of homonym items residing in different namespaces.
<DiegoTc> in normal words iostream is the library that contains many functions so I am using the using namespace std;
<DiegoTc> to include them all
<DiegoTc> but we can especify which ones to use
<ClassBot> pedro3005 asked: Shouldn't we "return 0;" at the end of the program?
<DiegoTc> yes and no
<DiegoTc> if you are using it on windows you have to do it, on linux no
<DiegoTc> i think i amswer all of your question right now? opensorcerer in some min i will answer yours
<DiegoTc> everyone copy this code? http://paste.ubuntu.com/500372/
<DiegoTc> lets continue
<DiegoTc> if we are using codeblocks
<DiegoTc> lets save the file
<DiegoTc> in gedit also
<DiegoTc> so the codeblock users lets go to the Build menu
<DiegoTc> lets click on the BUILD option
<DiegoTc> and on the down part we are going to see the message that process end it with 0 errors
<DiegoTc> if you are using gedit
<DiegoTc> lets open the terminal
<DiegoTc> lets go to the directory where you save the file
<DiegoTc> lets suppose you are save it on home
<DiegoTc> so do a cd /home
<DiegoTc> and you are going to do this
<DiegoTc> g++ -o helloworld helloworld.cpp
<DiegoTc> ready?
<DiegoTc> for everyone this is important
<DiegoTc> the g++ is the compiler
<DiegoTc> -o indicates the  name of the executable
<DiegoTc> which will be helloworld
<DiegoTc> and for last the name of the cpp file
<DiegoTc> so if you are in the terminal
<DiegoTc> for executting the program just do this
<DiegoTc> ./helloworld
<DiegoTc> in codeblocks go to to BUILD
<DiegoTc> and click on run
<DiegoTc> and a small terminal will appear with
<DiegoTc> Hello World
<DiegoTc> did everyone got the hello world?
<DiegoTc> Okay guys
<DiegoTc> give 1 min
<DiegoTc> okay lets continue
<DiegoTc> each time you begin to program on c++
<DiegoTc> you have to have the main(){CODE}
<DiegoTc> the cout<< it is for showing the message
<DiegoTc> it is equivalent to the print of python or c
<DiegoTc> each time you are going to print a string you must include ""
<DiegoTc> and here each end of line ends in ;
<DiegoTc> did everyone got that
<DiegoTc> now
<DiegoTc> if we want to read from the keyboard
<DiegoTc> we have to use cin>>
<DiegoTc> c++ has different types of variables
<DiegoTc> for numbers = int, double, float
<DiegoTc> char
<DiegoTc> bool
<DiegoTc> string
<DiegoTc> so lets make this small exercise
<DiegoTc> fibolinux, yuo have to use "\n"
<DiegoTc> okay copy this example http://paste.ubuntu.com/500395/
<DiegoTc> let me know when you have it
<DiegoTc> okay if you copy it build it and run it :)
<DiegoTc> did everyone got it?
<DiegoTc> okay i suppose that is a yes
<DiegoTc> with c++
<DiegoTc> you can use it for math operations
<DiegoTc> examples
<DiegoTc> 5+5=10
<DiegoTc> we declare a variable int ans
<DiegoTc> ans=5+5;
<DiegoTc> and that will give us 10
<ClassBot> opensorcerer asked: How do i use \n while printing num   ?
<DiegoTc> opensorcerer, could you be a little more specific
<DiegoTc> i don't get you
<DiegoTc> okay opensorcerer
<DiegoTc> easy
<DiegoTc> cout<<"The number is: "<<number<<"\n";
<DiegoTc> opensorcerer, i thinks you referred to that
<DiegoTc> i forgot this detail
<DiegoTc> on the cout you can print everything in the same line
<DiegoTc> using  <<
<DiegoTc> on the last example we did this
<DiegoTc>   cout<<"The number is: ";
<DiegoTc>  cout<< number;
<DiegoTc> but we can do it his way also
<DiegoTc> cout<<"The number is: "<<number;
<DiegoTc> so know that we know some basic concepts lets make another exercise together
<DiegoTc> lets make a small program that the user enters 2 numbers
<DiegoTc> and we have show the sum of this 2 numbers
<DiegoTc> so lets begins what w have to do firstÂ¿?
<DiegoTc> if anyone ones to do it alone write and if it works copy it on http://paste.ubuntu.com this way everyone could see it
<DiegoTc> okay first of all we need to write this
<DiegoTc> #include <iostream>
<DiegoTc> using namespace std;
<DiegoTc> main()
<DiegoTc> {
<DiegoTc> wehave to declare 3 variables of (int) type
<DiegoTc> it could be double or floats if we are going to add decimals
<DiegoTc> Carroarmato0, very good
<DiegoTc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/500403/
<DiegoTc> he declare his 2 variables
<DiegoTc> int var1, var2;
<DiegoTc> he use the cout for telling the user what the program wants
<DiegoTc> cout << "Give me 1st number: ";
<DiegoTc> the cin for reading the number
<DiegoTc>     cin >> var1;
<DiegoTc> and in the same cout he gave the answer cout << "The sum is: " << var1 + var2;
<DiegoTc> there are many ways of doing it
<DiegoTc> http://paste.ubuntu.com/500411/
<DiegoTc> in this one i declared a third variable for giving the answer
<ClassBot> pedro3005 asked: how do we convert between types?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<DiegoTc> pedro you are referring how to convert an int to a string=
<pedro3005> DiegoTc, and float to int, etc
<DiegoTc> pedro3005, you have to make typecasting
<DiegoTc> http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/typecasting/
<pedro3005> thanks for the lesson DiegoTc
<bihari_> i have problem on C language !
<pedro3005> bihari_, what is it?
<DiegoTc> np pedro3005
<bihari_> write a programme to print greatest and smallest number inside 1d array
<bihari_> use codepad.org
<bihari_> pedro3005, write a programme to print greatest and smallest number inside 1d array
<pedro3005> bihari_, well, do it like this: declare a variable called max_num, and set it to 0. Iterate over the array and compare max_num to the elements. If they are greater, put that in max_num and continue. by the end, you'll have the greatest number in max_num.
<pedro3005> then just print max_num, obviously
<bihari_> humm can you wright that code?
<pedro3005> sorry, not going to do homework for you
<opensorcerer> bihari_: Otherwise just sort the numbers in the array and take the largest and smallest, since you need both.
<pedro3005> oh yeah, he needs the smallest too
<pedro3005> opensorcerer, but as C has no standard function to sort an array, that might be too much work
<pedro3005> just have two vars, max_num and min_num
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: He can use the usual nested loop sorting technique. Its really easy. :)
<bihari_> yes
<pedro3005> opensorcerer, you mean bubble sort?
<bihari_> it will be short out in the nested loop
<bihari_> yes what is buuble sort
<bihari_> ?
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: I guess so.
<bihari_> i wants to know
<pedro3005> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_sort
<opensorcerer> bihari_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubble_sort
<pedro3005> opensorcerer, yeah, but that algorithm spends a great amount of computational steps which are simply not needed.
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: :)
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: Ok.
<pedro3005> I'd rather expend the memory to store two ints than sort an array, specially through an inefficient algorithm
<pedro3005> just my opinion
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: I go with your opinion, it seems more efficient. :)
<pedro3005> opensorcerer, since we're talking about C here, both will be so fast that the difference is not notable. But let's stick to theory :P
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: Yes, for the sake of larger programs that he/we may do in future. :)
<pedro3005> if it was python, though
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: So now we have to variables max_num and min_num. How exactly will we porceed?
<opensorcerer> proceed*
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: You have inbuilt sorting methods in python. right?
<pedro3005> opensorcerer, well, i'll write some pseudo-code (so we avoid ctrl + c methods :D)
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: we compare once to get max_num and then again to get the min_num?
<pedro3005> opensorcerer, yeah, hold on
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: Sure. I'm also trying it. :)
<pedro3005> opensorcerer, with python, we have two standard functions: max() and min()
<pedro3005> :)
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: Python is super-awesome. :)
<pedro3005> opensorcerer, this pseudo-code would work http://paste.pocoo.org/show/267209/
<opensorcerer> pedro3005: See my pm.
<bostikforever> pedro3005: you are awesome
<pedro3005> bostikforever, ..thank you
<bostikforever> Do you use Netbeans?
<pedro3005> nope, too slow
<pedro3005> Geany
<bostikforever> Okay
<bostikforever> I'm having some link ish's with my Netbeans
<bostikforever> could you be of any help?
<saji89> bihari_: how's is your program going?
<bihari_> saji89,  its going good
<bihari_> how about you saji89 what you doing?
<saji89> bihari_: I'm fine. Just gonna attend the Pythin session here. Let's move to #ubuntu-classroom-chat, since the session will be starting here now. :)
<bihari_> ok
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Beginners Team Dev Academy - Current Session: Introduction to Python: Part 2 - Instructors: pedro3005
<pedro3005> Alright
<pedro3005> First, I'd like to say that now we can properly use the question system, since the stupid pedro3005 finally learned how to use the bot.
<pedro3005> Well, it was quite complex. I mean, three commands?!? not something you grasp over an afternoon
<pedro3005> But let us go on
<pedro3005> We'll begin with a revision of what we saw last class
<pedro3005> We learned what is the python shell and we learned it can evaluate commands
<pedro3005> That is great for testing purposes, but at some time you must be able to create a file with your program in it
<pedro3005> So that's what we're going to do now
<pedro3005> First, open your favorite editor
<ClassBot> albel12051 asked: do this has the slides
<pedro3005> No. the instructor is too lazy (damn that guy, huh)
<pedro3005> Well, in your editor, let's begin with the old classic we also learned last class
<pedro3005> print "Hello, world!"
<pedro3005> After you write that, save your file as hello.py
<pedro3005> You can now execute your file by running the command 'python hello.py'
<pedro3005> Now, we can notice some important distinctions in python
<pedro3005> for instance
<pedro3005> Go to your file and write:
<pedro3005> print 1+1
<pedro3005> now run that file with the above method and you'll see it outputs 2
<pedro3005> Go back to the file and change that to simply
<pedro3005> 1+1
<pedro3005> Now run it. You will notice nothing happens
<pedro3005> The expression was evaluated, but since there was nothing to do with it, it was thrown away
<pedro3005> Guys
<pedro3005> I am TERRIBLY sorry. I need to get away for 5 little minutes. I'll be right back after that to continue the session. Really sorry, this is just a thing I could not have foreseen
<pedro3005> hope you will excuse me
<pedro3005> I'll be back as soon as I can, should take just some minutes
<pedro3005> I AM BACK
<pedro3005> well, it took 8 minutes. I'm not the fastest runner
<pedro3005> sorry
<pedro3005> ok
<pedro3005> where were I
<pedro3005> Oh yeah, files
<pedro3005> So as I was saying, if you don't tell python to do something with the expression, it is thrown away
<pedro3005> We also learned about variables, their types and how to declare them
<pedro3005> you can for instance declare an int variable x that is 2
<pedro3005> x = 2
<pedro3005> Consider this case: you want to raise x's value by one
<pedro3005> Python does NOT have ++ like other languages
<pedro3005> in your file, you could try
<pedro3005> x + 1
<pedro3005> but we all know that won't work
<pedro3005> it'll be evaluated then thrown away
<pedro3005> we must do
<pedro3005> x = x + 1
<pedro3005> But wait!
<pedro3005> There is a short way to say that
<pedro3005> we can say that:
<pedro3005> x += 1
<pedro3005> that is the exact same thing as x = x + 1
<pedro3005> You can also do it with other signs
<pedro3005> like
<pedro3005> x -= 1
<pedro3005> or x *= 2
<pedro3005> and, of course, x /= 2
<ClassBot> saji89 asked: When we put it in a file don't we put the shebang line at the top?
<pedro3005> Yeah, I'm sorry. I always forget that line
<pedro3005> Start your files with:
<pedro3005> #!/usr/bin/env python
<pedro3005> with this method, you don't need the python
<pedro3005> just make the file executable
<pedro3005> and then do ./file.py
<ClassBot> saji89 asked: IS #!/bin/python
<pedro3005> I haven't seen such a thing, so I don't know. Presumably it is
<pedro3005> But, as we were learning about python's arithmetic system, I forgot one operator
<pedro3005> that's the mod operator, or %
<pedro3005> it is similar to other languages
<pedro3005> it gives you the rest of the division
<pedro3005> for instance, 10 % 3 = 1
<pedro3005> it divides 10 by 3, and what is left is 1
<pedro3005> What's the usability of this? A common one is checking whether the number is even or odd
<pedro3005> if the mod of a number by two is greater than zero, this number is odd
<pedro3005> And if % is mod, how do we get percentage?
<pedro3005> Well, that's easy
<pedro3005> if you want 80 percent of a variable, just do:
<pedro3005> 80/100 * x
<pedro3005> or 0,8 * x
<pedro3005> that's basic math
<pedro3005> Any questions?
<ClassBot> DiegoTc asked: why by x?
<pedro3005> Well, x is just an example
<ClassBot> saji89 asked: 0,8 * x means?
<pedro3005> wait
<pedro3005> I'm wrong
<pedro3005> sorry all
<pedro3005> that's
<pedro3005> 0.8 * x
<ClassBot> HoellP asked: is there an operator for root?
<pedro3005> Yes, there is
<pedro3005> you need to import the module math
<pedro3005> import math
<pedro3005> then you can do
<pedro3005> math.sqrt(9)
<pedro3005> for instance
<pedro3005> The math module has many other functions such as sine etc.
<pedro3005> you can learn about them here http://docs.python.org/library/math.html
<pedro3005> Questions?
<pedro3005> Alright, let's move on
<pedro3005> We learned about ifs last class
<pedro3005> We can get an answer from python to boolean expressions, as we saw
<pedro3005> and if directs our program flow given these answers
<pedro3005> for instance, if we have a variable x
<pedro3005> and we want to see if it's positive or negative
<pedro3005> if x > 0:
<pedro3005>     print "It is positive"
<pedro3005> else:
<pedro3005>     print "It is negative OR equal to zero"
<pedro3005> Well, what if I want to know exactly? We have the keyword elif
<pedro3005> that means "else if"
<pedro3005> so we can rewrite our program using that
<pedro3005> if x > 0:
<pedro3005>     print "It is positive"
<pedro3005> elif x == 0:
<pedro3005>     print "It is zero"
<pedro3005> else:
<pedro3005>     print "It is negative"
<pedro3005> Questions?
<pedro3005> Lastly, we learned about the raw_input() command
<pedro3005> that's what we use to get input from the user
<pedro3005> its return type is a string
<pedro3005> we can say
<pedro3005> answer = raw_input("What is your name? ")
<pedro3005> Well, what if we want to get a number from it?
<pedro3005> age = raw_input("What is your age? ")
<pedro3005> yes, but that's still type string
<pedro3005> we can't do age + 1, because age is a string
<pedro3005> We need to use type conversion
<pedro3005> we can do:
<pedro3005> int(age)
<pedro3005> but that is insecure
<pedro3005> what if the user (never doubt the sheer stupidity of a user) decides to enter "bananas" when asked for his age?
<pedro3005> int("bananas") will make your program crash
<pedro3005> So, we have a method for strings
<ClassBot> HoellP asked: how do i combine variables and text in a print statement?
<pedro3005> You have some options
<pedro3005> you can do
<pedro3005> print "the variable is:" + x
<pedro3005> You can also do
<pedro3005> print "the variable is %s" % x
<pedro3005> The latter seems harder, but if you need a specific formatting that is your option
<ClassBot> saji89 asked: IF we need to print two/more variables in one print statement.
<pedro3005> well, you can do
<pedro3005> print "var one is %s, var two is %s" % (var_one, var_two)
<pedro3005> the thing in parenthesis is called a tuple
<pedro3005> we'll be learning about them later
<pedro3005> But back to our bananas problem
<pedro3005> strings have a method called isdigit()
<pedro3005> you can call it by "any string".isdigit()
<pedro3005> that will return True or False
<pedro3005> in our case, we can simply do
<pedro3005> age = raw_input("What is your age? ")
<pedro3005> if age.isdigit():
<pedro3005>    print "Your %s years old!" % age
<pedro3005> else:
<pedro3005>     print "Get off the computer and go back to your crib, kid"
<pedro3005> there are many more methods like this one
<pedro3005> you can learn about them at http://docs.python.org/library/stdtypes.html#str.isalnum (go scrolling down for more)
<pedro3005> Excuse my horrible english
<pedro3005> it is "you're"
<pedro3005> thank you saji89
<pedro3005> also, that line lacked one space for indentation
<ClassBot> Otto48 asked: is there a function to validate a string as a float number?
<ClassBot> Otto48 asked: or a negative?
<pedro3005> There are ways of doing that, but not with (standard) functions
<pedro3005> What you would need is a try statement
<pedro3005> If you could store that question for a later class
<pedro3005> I really didn't want to go over try with you guys before some things
<pedro3005> Thanks for the comprehension
<pedro3005> but you may notice that int("-4") works just fine :)
<pedro3005> and so does float("4.5")
<ClassBot> newboon2age asked: QUESTION: Were is the log for this session?
<pedro3005> nhandler usually takes care of the logs
<pedro3005> So, basically that is what we learned last class
<pedro3005> I wanted to go over it again to really get it complete
<pedro3005> Let's learn a  couple things about ifs
<pedro3005> What if we have to check several expressions?
<pedro3005> we have things like not, and, or
<pedro3005> for instance
<pedro3005> say we have an int x
<pedro3005> if x < 0 and x != 0:
<pedro3005>     print "x is negative"
<pedro3005> and another example
<pedro3005> if x < 0 or x > 0:
<pedro3005>     print "x is not zero"
<pedro3005> of course, it'd be better to just do
<pedro3005> if x != 0
<pedro3005> but I couldn't think of a better example :)
<ClassBot> Otto48 asked: Is shortcut evaluation used or are both sides evaluated regardless of the result of one side of the expression?
<pedro3005> Shortcuts are used. if the first expression fails, the other is not checked (if we're dealing with ands, of course)
<pedro3005> We also have not, as I mentioned
<pedro3005> if x > 1 and not x > 10:
<pedro3005> which is equivalent to x < 10, of course (my examples always suck)
<pedro3005> but not _is_ useful sometimes
<pedro3005> Questions?
<ClassBot> Otto48 asked: is 1<x<10 valid syntax?
<pedro3005> It is not
<pedro3005> unfortunately, for the math-inclined, you'll have to do x > 1 and x < 10
<pedro3005> Let me introduce you guys to a new type now
<pedro3005> In python, we have lists
<pedro3005> If you are familiar with C and other languages, they're like arrays
<pedro3005> but only MUCH better
<pedro3005> A list is a set of elements
<pedro3005> You can define them with the following syntax:
<pedro3005> numbers = [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
<pedro3005> To get the nth element of a list, we do list[n-1]. That's because the first element is 0
<pedro3005> in this case
<pedro3005> numbers[0] == 1
<pedro3005> and so forth
<pedro3005> Questions?
<pedro3005> Ok
<pedro3005> To get the total number of elements in a list you can use the function len()
<pedro3005> len(numbers) == 5
<pedro3005> Lists are a mutable type, meaning you can add and remove elements from it
<pedro3005> you can use the method append() to add something to a list at the rightmost position
<pedro3005> numbers.append(6)
<pedro3005> now we have numbers = [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6]
<ClassBot> saji89 asked: can we make a list immutable?
<pedro3005> Tuples are sort of like immutable lists
<pedro3005> so if you want something immutable go ahead and use a tuple (I'll go over them shortly)
<pedro3005> We also have the remove() method for lists
<pedro3005> numbers.remove(6) will remove the first instance of 6 it finds
<pedro3005> if we had, for instance, num = [6, 6, 6] and did num.remove(6), we'd end up with [6, 6]
<pedro3005> But what if I had [1, 2, 3, 1, 4] and I wanted to remove exactly the last 1?
<pedro3005> well, that is the 3rd element (remember, the first one is 0)
<pedro3005> so we can do
<pedro3005> del numbers[3]
<pedro3005> Or, we can use the pop() method
<pedro3005> list.pop(i) will remove the ith element and return it
<pedro3005> pop(), without arguments, defaults to the last element
<pedro3005> Any questions about that?
<ClassBot> Otto48 asked: Is there a push method too?
<pedro3005> yes, the method append()
<pedro3005> (see above)
<ClassBot> saji89 asked: list.pop(i) will remove the ith element and return it. Returns it, as in prints it?
<pedro3005> Not exactly
<pedro3005> for instance, consider this case
<pedro3005> if numbers.pop() > 0:
<pedro3005>     print "the last element of numbers is bigger than zero"
<pedro3005> but that wouldn't work with del :)
<pedro3005> Does that explain it?
<pedro3005> If you want to put an element at some exact position, you have insert() for that
<pedro3005> list.insert(i, x) will insert x at position i
<ClassBot> HoellP asked: is pop how i would evaluate command line options?
<pedro3005> No
<pedro3005> if you want to see command line arguments, import the module sys and access sys.argv
<pedro3005> For example
<pedro3005> if we had numbers = [1, 2, 3]
<pedro3005> we could do
<pedro3005> numbers.insert(0, 0)
<pedro3005> that would insert 0 at position 0
<pedro3005> But behold!
<pedro3005> lists can hold elements of different types
<pedro3005> (take that, C)
<pedro3005> for instance
<pedro3005> things = [1, "hi", 4.3]
<pedro3005> here we have an int, a string and a float
<pedro3005> Let's go over some more list methods and then go to slicing
<pedro3005> We have:
<pedro3005> list.extend(another_list)
<pedro3005> this simply adds another list to a list
<pedro3005> a = [1, 2]  and  b = [3, 4].  a.extend(b) = [1, 2, 3, 4]
<pedro3005> this is different from a.append(b)
<pedro3005> a.append(b) would result in
<pedro3005> [1, 2, [3, 4]]
<pedro3005> Yes, friends! Lists inside lists!
<pedro3005> Say, we had, for instance
<pedro3005> a = [[1, 2], [3, 4]]
<pedro3005> len(a) == 2
<pedro3005> it has two elements, two lists
<pedro3005> a[0] == [1, 2]
<pedro3005> suppose we want the first element of a[0]
<pedro3005> a[0][0]
<pedro3005> That may look weird but it's perfectly fine
<pedro3005> any questions?
<pedro3005> We have some other methods
<pedro3005> list.count(x) returns how many times x occurs in list
<pedro3005> for instance
<pedro3005> a = [1, 1, 2, 3]
<pedro3005> a.count(1) == 2
<pedro3005> We also have the sort() method
<pedro3005> this sorts a list in order
<pedro3005> a = [3, 2, 4, 1]
<pedro3005> a.sort()
<pedro3005> a == [1, 2, 3, 4]
<pedro3005> what if there are strings in the list?
<pedro3005> a = ["b", "c", "a"]
<pedro3005> a.sort()
<pedro3005> a == ["a", "b", "c"]
<pedro3005> Yes, it sorts alphabetically too :)
<ClassBot> Otto48 asked: How does sort() handle different types? EG a = [1, "w", [5, 6]]?
<pedro3005> you got me. Your example yields [1, [5, 6], 'w']. Python must have a priority hierarchy, but unfortunately it's not mentioned in the docs (or I couldn't find it)
<pedro3005> You also have the function sorted(), which is similar to sort()
<pedro3005> but sort() alters the list in place, and sorted() merely returns a sorted list
<pedro3005> let me explain that further
<pedro3005> a = [3, 1, 2]
<pedro3005> a.sort()
<pedro3005> now a == [1, 2, 3]
<pedro3005> but what if we did:
<pedro3005> a = [3, 1, 2]
<pedro3005> sorted(a)
<pedro3005> a STILL is [3, 1, 2]
<pedro3005> because sorted() does not modify a
<pedro3005> it only returns the sorted list
<pedro3005> did you understand the difference?
<pedro3005> great
<ClassBot> saji89 asked: simply sorted(a) throws away the result. Isn't it? So we use b=sorted(a). Right?
<pedro3005> Perfect, saji89 !
<pedro3005> You're grasping the concept
<pedro3005> that is correct
<pedro3005> We also have the list method reverse(), which reverses a list in place
<pedro3005> a = [1, 2, 3]
<pedro3005> a.reverse()
<pedro3005> a = [3, 2, 1]
<pedro3005> but it does not SORT the list in reverse
<pedro3005> it merely switches positions
<pedro3005> to sort it in reverse, do:
<pedro3005> a.sort(reverse = True)
<pedro3005> Questions?
<ClassBot> Otto48 asked: does "a.sort(reverse = True)" hint at named parameters?
<pedro3005> Yes
<pedro3005> many functions called will have that
<pedro3005> We'll be learning more about them in the session about functions
<pedro3005> Let's have a quick look at for loops, and while if we manage
<pedro3005> A for loop is a method of iterating over a list, or any iterable type
<pedro3005> in this loop, we have a temporary variable that will be set to each of the values in the list, run the commands with, then changed
<pedro3005> for instance
<pedro3005> values = [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
<pedro3005> for val in values:
<pedro3005>     print val
<pedro3005> Go ahead and try that
<pedro3005> the example is fairly obvious
<pedro3005> For each val inside values, print it
<pedro3005> We may, however, raise complexity
<pedro3005> Say I would like to only print the even values
<pedro3005> you may recall how to check if a number is even
<pedro3005> we use %
<pedro3005> so
<pedro3005> for val in values:
<pedro3005>     if not val % 2:
<pedro3005>         print val
<pedro3005> Any questions about that?
<pedro3005> Alright, that's good
<pedro3005> We have time for while loops then
<pedro3005> A while loop is a loop that's run as long as a certain expression evaluates to True
<pedro3005> for instance
<pedro3005> x = 5
<pedro3005> while x > 0:
<pedro3005>     x -= 1
<pedro3005>     print "x is now %s" % x
<pedro3005> go ahead and try that
<pedro3005> Questions?
<ClassBot> Otto48 asked: Does python have other loops? Does it have constructs similar to "Do ...Until" or "for (a=1;a<5;a+=)"?
<pedro3005> Nope
<pedro3005> python does not have a C-like for
<pedro3005> no do while either, IIRC
<pedro3005> But be not afraid
<pedro3005> we can do it all with justs fors and whiles :)
<pedro3005> Loops have two important keywords
<pedro3005> break and continue
<pedro3005> break stops a loop immediately
<pedro3005> even_numbers = [2, 4, 6]
<pedro3005> for x in even_numbers:
<pedro3005>     if x % 2: # x is ODD
<pedro3005>         break
<pedro3005> we found a non-even number!
<pedro3005> That stops the iteration completely
<pedro3005> Each of the "loops" is called an iteration
<pedro3005> and looping over is calling iterating
<pedro3005> the keyword continue stops an iteration and moves on to the next
<pedro3005> say we only want to print numbers greater than 0
<pedro3005> well, scratch that
<pedro3005> hm..
<pedro3005> alright... my examples suck
<pedro3005> but it's pretty simple
<pedro3005> a = [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
<pedro3005> for x in a:
<pedro3005> wait
<pedro3005> <saji89> pedro3005: x%2 = something suld be there, right?
<pedro3005> I forgot to mention this
<pedro3005> no, saji89 , we can do without it
<pedro3005> say
<pedro3005> x = 0
<pedro3005> if x: blabla
<pedro3005> it will not run
<pedro3005> if x: is just a way of saying if x == True
<pedro3005> things that are == False: 0, "", [],
<pedro3005> empty things
<pedro3005> Questions?
<pedro3005> Good
<pedro3005> in these last minutes, I'll introduce you guys to two great resources for beginners
<pedro3005> The UF beginner programming challenges - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=5499486
<pedro3005> You should be able to do problem 1
 * pedro3005 checks if stlsaint is around
<pedro3005> No? Good
<pedro3005> We also have another resource
<pedro3005> http://projecteuler.net :)
<pedro3005> It is a series of math questions
<pedro3005> if you like math, they are great
<pedro3005> You should also be able to solve the first problem from project euler
<pedro3005> and the second
<pedro3005> but they are REALLY hard
<pedro3005> so if you manage, kudos
<pedro3005> and if you're not managing, don't worry
<pedro3005> with your amount of knowledge you could solve 1, 2, 6 and 5 :P
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
<pedro3005> This concludes the session
<pedro3005> Next class I will be going over how to solve the 1st UF beginner problem and the 1st Euler problem
<saji89> pedro3005: COol.... :)
<pedro3005> I encourage all to try them
<Mohan_chml> Well Done pedro3005
<saji89> pedro3005: I'll try the first ones in the two reaosurces. :)
<pedro3005> saji89, I'll gladly take PMs
<pedro3005> :)
<apperceptions> thanks pedro!
<pedro3005> thank you apperceptions , hope you liked it
<saji89> pedro3005: Cool.
 * etank is starting to think that the times on the classroom calendar are UTC and he is about 4 hours late
#ubuntu-classroom 2010-09-26
<WarrenSH> Who peed in your cornflakes this time?
<ankurk> where can i get the logs for the 'C++ for beginners' by DiegoTc and the second python class by pedro3005
<ankurk> these classes where scheduled for Saturday 25
<persia> irclogs.ubuntu.com always has logs.  Prettier logs may be on the wiki
<jfi> It should be nice to have a log feature directly in Lernid
<ankurk> thanks persia
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-09-19
<vaishakh> hello
<vaishakh> hai
<jmarsden> !classroom
<ubot2> The Ubuntu Classroom is a project which aims to tutor users about Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu through biweekly sessions in #ubuntu-classroom - For more information visit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom
<Guest74812> :)
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-09-20
<mcop> how to join
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-09-23
<portaro> where os the class?
<portaro> when started classes?
<aryana> can  anybody help me with realtech wireless issue on my pavilion g series?
<carpunky> I ust did a fesh install on a 2nd hard drive , is there any useful apps that I should get right away ?
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-09-24
<sebsebseb> hi
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Introduction to User Days - Instructors: pleia2, nigelb
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<nigelb> Hello everyone!
<silvertip257> morning :)
<nigelb> Welcome to our fourth Ubuntu User Day event! https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
<jemparing> helo :)
<nigelb> The User Days Team has been working hard these past few weeks in order to bring you these 12 sessions.
<sebsebseb> Hello
<nigelb> Now, we have members from many teams in the Ubuntu community here today who have graciously volunteered to share their knowledge with all of us.
<nigelb> Before we begin, we would like to get a quick feel for who is here. If you are here, please say your name and where you are from.
<sebsebseb> Sebastian from England
<nigelb> I'm Nigel from India btw :)
<pleia2> and I'm Elizabeth from California (where it's 6:30AM ;))
<robb_billy> Robert from Romania :)
<silvertip257> Mike from Pennsylvania
<nabilinux> Hi, I am Nabil from Morocco
<fhassouneh> Fouad from Newfoundland, Canada :)
<jemparing> Hadri Malaysia
<nigelb> Excellent!
<nigelb> Its great to see a good international turnout
<nigelb> A few of you are probably wondering what User Days are all about.
<nigelb> User Days were created to be sets of classes offered during a one day period to teach the beginning or intermediate Ubuntu user the basics in order to get them started using Ubuntu. This includes:
<nigelb> Finding Help in Ubuntu, Accessibility Apps, Command Line Basics, Unity, ...
<nigelb> ...and more! For our full schedule head over to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
<nigelb> User Days were born out of a discussion at the Ubuntu Developers Summit in November 2009 regarding Ubuntu Open Week not being targeted enough at users.
<nigelb> (This however is now changing. From this cycle on Ubuntu Open Week will be targeted at users)
<pleia2> thanks nigelb, now for a quick rundown of how today will work:
<pleia2> Each hour, an instructor will be giving a class in this channel, #ubuntu-classroom
<pleia2> During the classes, #ubuntu-classroom will be moderated (+m). This means that only the instructor and hosts will be able to talk in the channel.
<pleia2> (we are -m right now for the intro so people could say hello and where they were from :))
<pleia2> Any discussion about the class should take place #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<pleia2> If you have a question during the class, please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat. Be sure to prefix it with 'QUESTION:' to ensure that it gets noticed. For example:
<pleia2> QUESTION: What are Ubuntu User Days?
<pleia2> Anyone wanna give it a try? :)
<ClassBot> nigelb asked: Do you like cats?
<pleia2> why yes! and I have two of them :)
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Do you like dogs?
<pleia2> dogs are lovely too!
<pleia2> these questions aren't immediately posted, I opened up a query with ClassBot to paste them in channel
<pleia2> each instructor will do this at their own pace, no need to repeat your question if you haven't seen it yet, it's probably still in the question queue
<pleia2> After each session, our group of volunteers will post the IRC logs to the wiki as soon as possible.
<pleia2> So if you miss a session or just want to review what you learned, be sure to check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays for links to logs that our volunteers will put up as soon as they are able
<pleia2> If you can't wait, Logs will also be automatically posted on http://irclogs.ubuntu.com near the end of each hour.
<pleia2> Please be sure to remind all of your friends and family who might be interested in using Ubuntu that this event is taking place today. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays/JoiningIn has some information about how they can participate.
<nigelb> Thanks pleia2.
<nigelb> If you think your IRC client is noisy, the Joining In page linked about has some information for most of the common clients.
<nigelb> Finally, before we move on to answering any more questions about Ubuntu User Days that you might have, I would like to give a big thanks to everyone who has helped make this day possible.
<nigelb> It simply would not have been possible to organize this event without all of their help :)
<nigelb> Finally, at the end of the day, please take some time to fill out our survey! We will use the results to help make the next Ubuntu User Day event even better. http://goo.gl/bryxq
<nigelb> Now, does anyone have any general questions about the day?
<pleia2> btw, you will notice that one of the questions on the survey is related to whether we'll keep running User Days now that Open Week is very similar, so if you feel strongly about keeping this event alive, please let us know :)
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Why is this users day so close to the 11.10 release?
<pleia2> availability of volunteers to run it and in July we had lots of other Classroom events going on
<sebsebseb> and then another Open Week after the release
<pleia2> if there is another User Days, we'll try to do it earlier in the cycle (probably January)
<nigelb> Most of us volunteers were a bit busy to handle it earlier in the cycle, that's all.
<sebsebseb> ok
<pleia2> any other questions?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sebsebseb> not from me
<ClassBot> jedijf asked: How do we thank you for doing this?
<pleia2> I'll be in Philly on Oneiric release day, parties are good :)
<jedijf> lol, you got it!
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<nabilinux> Thank you for your understanding, it's the first time that I use this tool!
<nabilinux> I mean the messaging tool is new to me
<sebsebseb> nabilinux: Which tool? IRC?
<nabilinux> The one that I am using right now
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Unity - Instructors: DBO
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<pleia2> ok, it looks like our instructor DBO is running late, until he arrives we're going to turn this session into a general Ubuntu Q&A
<pleia2> so, does anyone have any Ubuntu project questions? (not support :))
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l-onei asked: ââThe most basic question: Why should someone run Ubuntu?
<nigelb> heh, good one.
<nigelb> Everyone person running Ubuntu will probably give you a different answer.
<nigelb> Because, well, there are *so* many reasons
<pleia2> a few of my family members prefer it because it has the software center that makes installing stuff easy (and free!)
<pleia2> they also like that they haven't gotten any viruses which slow down their computer :)
<nigelb> I've found that Ubuntu is a great environment to code in, that's why I use it.
<pleia2> driver support for things like printers has gotten better too, so instead of having a disk to install a printer driver like in some other OSes, you can just select from a dropdown of already installed drivers
<pleia2> I like using it because there are lots of options for configuration, lots of different desktop options :)
<pleia2> and I'm sure there are dozens of other reasons why people use Ubuntu!
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What do you both personally think of Unity pleia2 and nigelb and why?
<nigelb> I like it :) Though I tend to usually just work on terminals for the most part.
<pleia2> I'm an Xubuntu project member, I've never even really used Gnome classic, didn't make the move to Unity, still using Xfce
<pleia2> but the betas for oneiric I've tried here and there were pretty nice, and I really like how keybinding driven it can be
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: What about Gnome Shell pleia2 and nigelb? Which I know isn't  really in 11.04, but there's the ppa, but will be in the repos for 11.10 as an option.
<nigelb> Never tried it.
<pleia2> neither have I
<ClassBot> Bauwan asked: ââWill shortcut super+F for showing last used files work in 11.10? In beta1 I tested it and it seemed gone.
<pleia2> if our Unity guy makes it we'll pass this question along to him (unless you know, nigelb?)
<nigelb> Nope, sorry.
<nigelb> (I mean I don't know)
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Why do you think a new user straight from Windows or Mac OS X should go for Ubuntu, rather then well well many other distributions that are also pretty user friendly?
<nigelb> Ubuntu has enough users that there is good documenation and support available than a most other distros. I think sites like askubuntu.com with a good community drive would be another reason.
<pleia2> and you have pretty much every option for support in ubuntu, we're not restricted to mailing lists or forums as a main avenue of support
<pleia2> and I happen to think it's one of the best options out there ;) but I suppose personal preference doesn't mean a whole lot
<ClassBot> Bauwan asked: ââWhat about a new icon-theme for Ubuntu? Is that on your timeline? Design-team already on it to surprise us until 12.04? ;)
<pleia2> unfortunately I haven't kept up with this
<pleia2> any comments, nigelb?
<nigelb> No, I'm a bit detached from those developments
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I know pleia2 is doing a session later about KDE and XFCE4, but what about LXDE/Lubuntu have either of you used it, what you think of it?  Plus it became officaly recognised by Canonical with 11.04 I think it was.
<pleia2> LXDE is nice, light-weight (Xfce doesn't really strive for that anymore)
<pleia2> it's first official release will be with 11.10
<pleia2> well, recognised and using all the ubuntu resources
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: XFCE doesn't really strive to be light-waight anymore, meaning what exactly?
<pleia2> one of the benefits of Xubuntu used to be that it ran better on older systems, while it can still be slimmed down more than gnome-based systems, by default some of the recent benchmarks these past few years showed it's similar to gnome2
<pleia2> so you won't find the light-weight comment on the Xubuntu website these days, it's really geared toward being an alternative that's more (and easily!) customizable
<pleia2> more questions? :)
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Some people think that Gnome 2 can be replaced with XFCE quite easilly now, because they are pretty similar, not quite similar enough for me to just be able to do that  though, but Ubuntu Studio will switch to XFCE from Gnome 2 for 11.10 I read before instead of using Gnome2/3/Unity/GnomeShell,  what do you think about all this any comments?
<pleia2> yes, the Studio folks are switching to XFCE for 11.10, it may be a bit of a rough release though since it's the first one with a different desktop
<pleia2> they'll be in great shape for 12.04 though
<pleia2> I find Xfce to be a good replacement for Gnome2, but the feeling is not universal
<pleia2> whatever happens, moving away from Gnome2 is a big step no matter where you go from there, Unity and Gnome Shell are a major UI change which the Studio people didn't feel would work well with what they were trying to achieve with Studio
<pleia2> at the end of the day, part of the reason I use Linux is because we have so many options, it's exciting to see all this new development happening, and being able to work with people to change defaults if they don't like what they see
<ClassBot> Bauwan asked: ââI'm changing my parents computer from vista to Ubuntu with 11.10. Any tips what to teach them first to make them feel comfortable as fast as possible. What helps Ex-Windows/new Ubuntu users?
<pleia2> the official documentation by the docs team was quite good in 11.04, so I might start them off there: https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/ubuntu-help/index.html
<pleia2> (or the 11.10 version once it's released)
<pleia2> there have been some Unity cheat-sheets out there for getting familiar with the interface, but I'm afraid I don't have any current ones off-hand
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I know of one distribution that's going to actsaully let users choose betwen Gnome 2 and Gnome 3,  surely really a distro that is doing that, has quite an advantage over the distros that are only providing one of them?  Altough it seems most of them will just go and provide Gnome 3, and not bother with Gnome 2 or a fork of it.
<pleia2> AFAIK the Gnome foundation won't be maintaining Gnome2 forever, so it'll be a lot of work to maintain it for feature upgrades, security and have new plugins still work (or keep the old ones patched)
<nigelb> And the libraries as well.
<pleia2> if one distro is doing it, that's quite impressive :) but it will get harder as the years go on
<pleia2> Ubuntu has pretty much gone the future-looking route rather than trying to maintain older stuff
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l-onei asked: ââA relative of mine likes Ubuntu but says he always has trouble getting it set up to play DVDs. Any advice on this?
<pleia2> I'd suggest they head over to ubuntuforums.org to see if there is anyone who can help
<pleia2> there is a beginners forum: http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=326
<pleia2> my only suggestion is that they pay attention to the thread and cooperate with the people trying to help them :)
<pleia2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats may also be worth a read (if they haven't already)
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Do you think that Unity might eventually help make Ubuntu go a bit more main streame,  the new users straight from Windows or Mac OS X and quite a lot of them, but whilst not losing quite a few of the more expereinced users who don't really like Unity that much to other distributions, and yeah the kind who really like or liked Gnome 2 as well?  I mean 11.10 won't have Gnome 2 at all anymore, so I wonder what will happen,
<pleia2> almost everyone I talk to about Unity at events and things say the same thing "I didn't like it at first, but once I got used to it I really liked it"
<pleia2> so while I realize there are a lot of folks out there who don't like it, anecdotal evidence shows me that they're a loud minority
<pleia2> I can't really speak to whether it will cause more Windows/OSX people to switch, I really don't know
<pleia2> and again, it's not like Ubuntu has gotten rid of KDE and XFCE...they added LXDE! so you still have lots of options
<pleia2> the new fluxbox is nice too, they have some new developers lately :)
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: Let's say someone likes Ubuntu really, but wants to keep Gnome 2,  well 11.10 won't really be an option for them,  so what do you think they should do,  run a older version of Ubuntu  that still has Gnome 2 for a bit longer whilst it's still supported, or possbily use a Ubuntu based distro that is still  using Gnome 2?
<pleia2> well, 10.04 is an LTS so that's supported for another 18 months
<pleia2> there is also gnome-fallback is gnome3 which should look pretty similar to classic, I can't confirm it's ready for 11.10 though (again, I'm not much of a Gnome person :))
 * starcraftman says hop ship to KDE :)
<ClassBot> sebsebseb asked: I remember when Gnome 3 came out in April, and loads of people on the web, it was like they thought, they had to not use Gnome 2 anymore, because it was old,  even though loads of distros were still providing it,  and it seemed many people thought they had to go and use Gnome 3 already, or an alternative such as XFCE,  and I don't think there's anything wrong with using Gnome 2 still  as long as the distro is still having
<pleia2> continued: security updates and such, what you think?
<starcraftman> pleia2: you asking me?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: What you should know when shopping for  your next Ubuntu system - Instructors: starcraftman
<pleia2> no one said there was anything wrong with Gnome 2, yes it's fine if you're using a distro that's still patching it, but Ubuntu is putting their effort into future development
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<starcraftman> Ok, want me to intro myself pleia2?
<pleia2> yeah, go for it :)
<pleia2> welcome starcraftman!
<starcraftman> Hi folks, I'm a computer science student that lives up north in the great Canadian expanse (around Montreal). I'm a third year student and started in the Linux community quite a while ago. I started in support/documentation and will likely transition to development help when I'm a bit more free.
<starcraftman> you can find more aobut me here > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man
<starcraftman> (I don't actually endorse smoking, picture just really cool :) )
<starcraftman> starcraft: Anyway, this session will be a bit impromptu for me, I got requested last minute. I'll be typing it on the fly.
<starcraftman> Your free to ask questions as I go but I will only be answering them at the end of the session. I hope that's alright, want to be sure I get to all my material.
<starcraftman> So, off we go.
<starcraftman> Today's topic relates to Hardware and Buying for Linux computers. This isn't to say it's about finding support, but to avoid needing support altogether by buying machines that "just work" as people like to say about Windows and OSX/Macs.
<starcraftman> I guess the starting question we really want to get into is why doesn't everything just naturally work with Linux out of the box like the other two main OS.
<starcraftman> The answer is rather straightforward, Windows and OSX are supported by two massive companies who have the luxury of making corporate arrangements and affording large QA teams to guarantee that their hardware/software work together almost seemlessly. Apple has it even easier than Microsoft since they have such a small pool of hardware that they officially support and are the only legal hardware seller.
<starcraftman> In addition to these complications, many manufacturers of hardware loathe disclosing things like product specifications and low level details for fear that the competition might use this to gain an advantage (though this seems less valid to me).
<starcraftman> So, we'll be looking at how to research and buy hardware smartly that will avoid this mess entirely. We'll go over somet things you can do to improve (there are few guarantees in life) the chances of everyhting working out of the box.
<starcraftman> Now, the crux of the question:  What hardware is guaranteed to work with Ubuntu ?
<starcraftman> No strict guarantees but there are definite trends I've seen in my years at buying hardware for my own personal machines (desktops and notebooks).
<starcraftman> Companies like Intel offer very strong support for the platform and have engineers that work to ensure support is good.
<starcraftman> There are other companies like Nvidia that have a more uneasy relationship I suppose. Rather than contributing open source drivers like intel does, they have their own drivers released in a binary format.
<starcraftman> Then of course there are some companies that just don't much care for open source, they don't get much money out of it and provide little to no support. A lot of proprietary wireless makers could fall here like broadcom who I've always had trouble with and avoid now in wireless area.
<starcraftman> So where to go to know what is supported and working.
<starcraftman> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport
<starcraftman> Click the above link and take a look.
<starcraftman> We have 3 options here I'll go into to get information when buying.
<starcraftman> First is the Ubuntu Certification program. This is a program run by Canonical who works with their corporate partners to ensure that machines certified here work as a complete system.
<starcraftman> That is they don't rate the hardware in particulare but the systems as a whole.
<starcraftman> http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/ < Certified site.
<starcraftman> Lets take a little test drive, and look at Dell.
<starcraftman> Say we were looking for a notebook, we can click on the notebook link in the Dell row and get to > http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/make/Dell/laptops
<starcraftman> From here we can peruse different models and see what was certified when. Note that each machine has versions listed. That indicates when it was tested.
<starcraftman> If we were buying today we would look for those with the latest release (11.04 until the next one releases in october).
<starcraftman> If you click the links you can see what OS and what notes were made at certificiation. I'll leave it to you to continue browsing at your leisure.
<starcraftman> Next is Ubuntu Friendly.
<starcraftman> This is more of a community oriented project, aimed at testing parts like the old hardware pages (I'll get to those in a minute).
<starcraftman> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuFriendly
<starcraftman> The project is still in the early stages but is promising and definitely something to look into at a later date.
<starcraftman> At the bottom of the page you'll see the old (now discontinued) wiki pages that aimed to test particular hardware like printers, scanners, notebooks and such.
<starcraftman> Say we were looking for Scanners , click that and then HP you get to > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsScannersHp
<starcraftman> This was the old way of rating hardware, a bit messy as one big table. I hope the new ubuntu friendly guys have a nicer presentation. These pages though discontinued do hold valuable information but it will likely be out of date and can't be perfectly relied upon the longer the time between it's testing and your purchase.
<starcraftman> These are resources when your shopping from traditional makers that usually don't offer extensive support for Linux.
<starcraftman> The alternative to this is buying from a Linux shop (usually smaller outfits) that will test and preload a linux distribution on their machines.
<starcraftman> http://linuxpreloaded.com/
<starcraftman> ^ This site has a fairly good list of retailers.
<starcraftman> I've bought from 76 and know others who've used Zareason, good choices I'd say. Of course it's important to compare around and see what best fits your needs but these machines are  tested with linux and in general don't need any additional help with drivers.
<starcraftman> my System76 notebook's wireless, webcam and bluetooth work without any extra steps on a clean install.
<starcraftman> You can browse these at your own discretion and compare with other options.
 * starcraftman is just taking a lil break to get some whater, been typing a lot.
<starcraftman> and back.
<starcraftman> Now, I guess we can go over a few guidelines that might help when shopping.
<starcraftman> Rule 1: Don't break your system.
<starcraftman> If your trying to get some new hardware working, be careful. If it's tricky and has some instructions asking you to compile, insert into the kernel and do other steps your not comfortable with be careful.
<starcraftman> In general, if your not sure about it, don't blindly follow steps posted on the internet unless you trust the person (say it's posted by a community member like me or pleia2).
<starcraftman> Rule 2: Search effectively over the net BEFORE purchasing.
<starcraftman> I've said this before in my finding help session I deliver usually but it's a golden rule that remains true. If your having a problem, 99% of the time somebody else did before you.
<starcraftman> This applies in particular to hardware, the difference is you should be looking for posts on the web, the wikis, forums and launchpad to  see people experience with particular hardware BEFORE buying. Once you give a company money, it's hard to negociate eh?
<starcraftman> I'll cover more specifically how to get effective help in a later session in 5 hours or so, don't want to overlap too much so I'll just use a quick example.
<starcraftman> Say I wanted to buy from dell and was looking at labtops, I could come across INspiron 15 found here > http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-15-intel-n5040/pd
<starcraftman> (Not that I'm endorsing Dell to be clear)
<starcraftman> It's best to use the methods we've seen now to see how that would fair.
<starcraftman> First we can go to the Ubuntu certified program and look under dell/labtops
<starcraftman> http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/make/Dell/laptops
<starcraftman> We see inspiron 15 models listed, we'd have to get a bit more specific but good to read them all and see how it is overall.
<starcraftman> We can also google and see the results. The important bit is getting a general feeling for the rpoduct.
<starcraftman> This advice comes with the caveat that there aren't any guarantees, so take everything with a grain of salt.
<starcraftman> Rule 3: Professional vs Community Help
<starcraftman> This ones a note from MagicFab, it's important to remember that Canonical does provide Support to users and businesses if the need exists. You can use these services to get help directly from people who know what they are talking about.
<starcraftman> I've never used paid support but MagicFab used to be there so I'm sure it's pretty good :).
<starcraftman> Community help would of course be things like  the Ubuntu Forums, the wiki and other unofficial pages like the Ubuntu friendly system.
<starcraftman> Rule 4: Share your findings.
<starcraftman> One of the best things about community is that people share. If you buy a labtop x and find there's a minor problem even if it was listed as ubuntu certified,  write about it.
<starcraftman> Be it on your blog, on the wiki pages, to ubuntu-friendly, etc...
<starcraftman> We can only get more information by sharing.
<starcraftman> The last and most effective weapon/rule.
<starcraftman> The live CD.
<starcraftman> It's important to remember that any burt CD of Ubuntu is in fact a bootable live CD, this means you can try hardware on a show floor (with permission) without damaging it.
<starcraftman> By booting up such a machine you'll see if the drivers for say wireless or webcam work out of the box.
<starcraftman> Quite a handy trick.
<starcraftman> Anyway, hmmm, that's quite a bit of information. I think that covers most of the bases.
<starcraftman> Oh and just another example > http://castrojo.wordpress.com/2009/12/20/asus-eeetop-2002-and-ubuntu/
<starcraftman> Many Linux members like to review their purchases, googling for "labtop model" and "ubuntu review" can often turn up good stuff.
<starcraftman> I think that's about it now, I'll take questions for the last 15 minutes. Went faster than I thought.
<starcraftman> Maybe I just type fast :)
<ClassBot> lunzie asked: ââare talks about freedom boxes on the table yet for ubuntu?
<starcraftman> I think I want a bit of clarification on this question.
<starcraftman> We'll interesting question, a bit tricky. There are various projects that have attempted to be entirely FLOSS over the years, the most prominent to my memory is > http://www.gnewsense.org/Main/HomePage
<starcraftman> I can't attest to how well it runs, the problem with a FLOSS only distro is that an unfortunate reality is a lot of hardware is proprietary still.
<starcraftman> This is where buying from companies that support Linux and FLOSS comes in. Companies like Intel and HP for printers giving direct opensource support need to be favoured over others. Ultimately corporations work based on demand and if the demand shifts to those who support FLOSS we'll get better hardware  drivers/support. Hopefully.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<starcraftman> Hope that answers question.
<ClassBot> rigved asked: what are your thoughts on the Emperor Linux vendor (http://emperorlinux.com/)?
<starcraftman> Never used then rigved, so I can't really comment on how well they are. Nor do I know any friends off top of head who have.
<starcraftman> Sorry.
<ClassBot> lunzie asked: ââis there a compatibility site to check peripheral equipment, like camcorders, say? I can't get my sony handycam to work as a webcam
<starcraftman> I would say the best bet is Ubuntu friendly once that gets up and running completely. That should be our new repository for all individual hardware testing by the community.
<starcraftman> The old site for hardware on wiki has a section of webcams > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsMultimediaWebCameras
<starcraftman> Also one for multimedia devices like cams > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsMultimedia
<starcraftman> Don't really have many other definite sites. Hope that helps.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<starcraftman> Hope everyone enjoyed session, was a little more impromptu than I'd usually do. Happy shopping for Linux Machines :)
<starcraftman> Oh and just a reminder, my later session will cover getting help kind of overlaps with this, I'll go over effective power searching google and finding help. Kinda fits with this topic.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Contributing to Ubuntu - Instructors: akgraner
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<akgraner> Hi I'm Amber Graner - or otherwise known as "akgraner"
<akgraner> I've been involved in the Ubuntu Community since early 2009 when I started using Ubuntu and Blogging about my experience.
<akgraner> Thanks for joining this session!
<akgraner> Now I am a freelance journalist and write for publications such as Linux Pro and Ubuntu User Magazines (online and print), informIT, and I am one of the co-authors of "The Offical Ubuntu Book", by Pearson Publishing.
<akgraner> When I started out in the Ubuntu Community I just used Ubuntu and blogged about my experience.  However, I wanted to contribute, but I was (and still am) not a developer - meaning, I don't write code, but I heard that there is a place for anyone to contribute to Ubuntu and I wanted to find out where.
<akgraner> My first year I went a little overboard, so I don't recommend anyone taking on as much as I did my first year - that will lead to burnout (which is another talk I give but I digress).  My point is there are many, many, many places for non-developers to get involved with. I would stress that as you transition from End User Consumer (meaning you just use the OS) to End User Contributor you concentrate on doing one thing well rather than
<akgraner>  many things half-way or so-so. (In other words don't be a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none).
<akgraner> I'm really excited to tell anyone who will listen that there is a place for everyone to contribute and participate and Contribute in the Ubuntu Community you just have to know where to look.
<akgraner> This is an overview of all the areas of the community I had to go and find out about when I started is what I wish someone had given me.
<akgraner> **** What is this talk about? ****
<akgraner> This talk is about making you aware of all the areas that you can get involved in the Ubuntu Community as a contributor and the resources that help you make the conversion from consumer user to contributor user.  REMEMBER- THERE IS A PLACE IN THE COMMUNITY FOR *EVERY* TYPE AND SKILL LEVEL OF CONTRIBUTOR! :-D
<akgraner> **** What this talk is not? ****
<akgraner> This talk is not about addressing the community problem of the day. If you have complaints about areas of the community please address those with the proper governing bodies (we will discuss governance a little in this talk)
<akgraner> **** Questions ****
<akgraner> Please use the following format for all questions -- QUESTION: Where do I find all the Ubuntu Mailing lists?  All questions should be asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll use classbot to post them into #ubuntu-classroom.  Please ask your questions as you think of them and I'll take time at the end of the session to answer as many as possible.
<akgraner> (I don't want to present this too quickly so just let me know  in the chat channel if I am moving/posting to fast)
<akgraner> **** Contributing to Ubuntu ****
<akgraner> As I mentioned before, there is a place for everyone to contribute within the Ubuntu Community.  I want to stress--YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A DEVELOPER TO CONTRIBUTE.  Entering into Community Contribution is like a lattice not a ladder. Lattice - http://people.ubuntu.com/~akgraner/Contributing%20to%20the%20Ubuntu%20Community/wooden-lattice-500x500.jpg   Ladder - http://people.ubuntu.com/~akgraner/Contributing%20to%20the%20Ubuntu%20Commun
<akgraner> ity/ladder.gif
<akgraner> Ladder - http://people.ubuntu.com/~akgraner/Contributing%20to%20the%20Ubuntu%20Community/ladder.gif
<akgraner> What do I mean by that - you don't have to go to step 1 then step 2 etc - you can pick a point in the community and start contributing. Hopefully this talk will give you short cuts and guides to find your way around the community and find the place you can start contributing to based on your interest, skills, and talents.
<akgraner> Let's First look at the resources that you will need to know about:
<akgraner> **** Resources ****
<akgraner>  * Wiki Pages - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ - these are the pages where you can find out almost all information about any and all projects withing the Ubuntu Project  - even the supported derivative distributions have many of these same resources (we'll go over links to those supported distributions later in the talk so you know how to find out information about those as well)
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Website - http://www.ubuntu.com/ - this is the official Ubuntu Website and also has links to ways you can get involved and contribute
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Forums - http://ubuntuforums.org/ - this where information about various projects, discussions, and questions are asked and answered and information is distributed
<akgraner> * Ask Ubuntu - http://askubuntu.com/ - this is a new official area to ask questions and get answers to questions.
<akgraner> * Mailing Lists - https://lists.ubuntu.com/ this is the list for all the Ubuntu Mailing list so you can see which list you want to sign up for
<akgraner> * IRC Channels - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/ChannelList
<akgraner>  * Ubuntu Fridge - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/ (Official Ubuntu News Source) - You can find out about upcoming projects here
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter - Summary of weekly Ubuntu related news items and a source to find out about projects and needs within the community
<akgraner> * Fridge Calendar - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/fridge/ - where you can see when and where all the various project and team meeting are being held so you can participate and find out more about that project or team
<akgraner> * Classroom Calendar - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/calendars/classroom/ - where you can find out about classes you can participate in that are being held in #ubuntu-classroom and #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<akgraner> * SpreadUbuntu - http://spreadubuntu.org/ - DIY is a material repository and resource for local initiatives and LoCo Teams wishing to spread the Ubuntu operating system.
<akgraner> * LoCo Directory - http://loco.ubuntu.com/ - The LoCo Team Directory is an excellent resource for LoCo Teams to use when planning events. The LoCo Team Directory allows users to set up events and venues for their LoCo Team, and then allow users to register their attendance to the event. This makes planning and tracking much easier for users.
<akgraner> * Launchpad - https://launchpad.net/ - Launchpad is an open source suite of tools that help people and teams to work together on software projects.  All Ubuntu Projects have launchpad accounts. While contributing to many areas of the Ubuntu Community a Launchpad account isn't necessary, but the more involved you get the more you will find the need to have a Launchpad account.
<akgraner> * Planet Ubuntu  - http://planet.ubuntu.com/ - Planet Ubuntu is a window into the world, work and lives of Ubuntu developers and contributors. (Ubuntu Members have the option to syndicate their blogs to planet Ubuntu)  You can also find out about various projects and needs withing the community and projects by following the planet ubuntu.
<akgraner>  * Ubuntu Weblogs - http://ubuntuweblogs.org/ - UbuntuWeblogs.org, also known as Planet Ubuntu Users, aims to create a central place for all Ubuntu-related weblogs. Unlike Planet Ubuntu, this Planet is open to anyone who writes about Ubuntu or any derivative. This is also a great place to find out what people are working on and might need help with.
<akgraner> I wanted you all to have a list of resources in one place - you can look through say the IRC List or MailingList and find out about teams you might be interested in for example
<akgraner> **** Supported Ubuntu Distributions and its Derivatives  ****
<akgraner> I mention these because the list is growing and you may find yourself wanting to participate and contribute to one of these distributions as well.  I'll list the names of the distributions and their websites and later you can look up more information and find out about these communities as well.  Just like Ubuntu each of the derivative distributions have communities for you to contribute.
<akgraner> * Ubuntu - http://www.ubuntu.com/
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Server - http://www.ubuntu.com/business/server/overview
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Cloud - http://cloud.ubuntu.com/
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Netboot - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDNetboot
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Core - http://www.canonical.com/engineering-services/ubuntu-core
<akgraner> * Kubuntu Desktop - http://www.kubuntu.org/
<akgraner> * Kubuntu Mobile - http://www.kubuntu.org/
<akgraner> * Xubuntu Desktop - http://www.xubuntu.org/
<akgraner> * Edubuntu - http://www.edubuntu.org/
<akgraner> * Mythbuntu - http://www.mythbuntu.org/
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Studio - http://ubuntustudio.org/
<akgraner> * Lubuntu - http://lubuntu.net/
<akgraner> There is more to the overall community and where your talents and interest can be used than just Ubuntu.  I want to make sure you knew of the other areas are well.
<akgraner> **** Ubuntu Community (taken from the website - http://www.ubuntu.com/community) ****
<akgraner> Many areas have overlap where you can either get help or give help.  This list is just to make you aware of what is available and the areas you can look into.
<akgraner> ** Contribution **
<akgraner> Remember: Whether you're an experienced Linux user or you're just getting started with open-source software, there are lots of ways to get involved with the Ubuntu community.
<akgraner> * Developers/Development - Contribute by writing or packaging new software or fixing bugs in existing software. We're always ready to embrace new technologies. - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/get-involved/developers
<akgraner> * Documentation - Help produce official documentation, share the solution to a problem or check, proof and test documents for accuracy. - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
<akgraner> * Artwork/Design - Put your creativity to work by improving the look and feel of Ubuntu. Help design themes, graphics or backgrounds for the next release. - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
<akgraner> * Support - Share your technical know-how with other users on email and discussion lists, or Internet Relay Chat (IRC) channels. Help users by answering questions in forums.  - http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community
<akgraner> * Bug Squad - Help make Ubuntu even better by working with bug reports to ensure they're clear, complete and if possible, easy to reproduce. Anyone can help! - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad
<akgraner> * Testing - Ubuntu releases new versions every six months so we need lots of testers who can report or confirm problems. If you'd like to be on the cutting edge of the very latest Ubuntu developments, get testing! - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Brainstorm - Everyone can participate in the Brainstorm website. It's full of ideas on how to improve Ubuntu. Once ideas mature, they can move on to become specifications , which are detailed blueprints of future Ubuntu features. Anyone can suggest new ideas and the community votes on which ideas are the most important.  - http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
<akgraner> * Translations - If your first language is not English but you have strong English skills, you can make a huge contribution by helping to translate Ubuntu applications into your first language. Even if you just translate a few lines you can make a difference to someone in your own country who is learning about computers and free software. - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-translators - https://launchpad.net/rosetta
<akgraner> ** Help and Support **
<akgraner> (Many of these resources I mentioned earlier but I wanted to go over them again here with a little more detail from the website)
<akgraner> * Documentation - Official documentation explains everything from adding new applications to configuring networks. - https://help.ubuntu.com/
<akgraner> * Support - Access forums, live chat sessions or mailing lists and benefit from the technical knowledge of Ubuntu community members. - http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community
<akgraner> * Community Blogs - Planet Ubuntu is your window into the world, work and lives of Ubuntu developers and contributors. - http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<akgraner> * News - Keep up-to-date with the Ubuntu news at The Fridge or read Ubuntu Weekly News â the community-created newsletter. - http://fridge.ubuntu.com/
<akgraner> ** Community Structure **
<akgraner> As I mentioned previously, we will touch on the way the community is organized as it helps to know and understand how the community is structured and who to turn to for what.
<akgraner> * Governance - Learn more about how the community is organized and how responsibility is allocated. - http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-ubuntu/governance
<akgraner> * Code of Conduct - Review the Code of Conduct to which community members subscribe. It's our bible for collaboration and helps define the way we all work together. - http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
<akgraner> * Project Teams - Learn about the dozens of project teams, their contributions to Ubuntu and how they work. - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams
<akgraner> (This page needs updating but it's a good page to bookmark - because updates should be coming soon)
<akgraner> * Local (LoCo) Ubuntu Teams - Find and join an official local community (LoCo) team near you, or get advice on how to create a team in your local community. - http://loco.ubuntu.com/
<akgraner> This list of links will help you find out more about the structure of the community and how you can find teams and projects near you
<akgraner> **Ubuntu Events **
<akgraner> These are online tutorials offered each cycle geared toward various users.  These are easy weeks for users to participate in or if you can't attend you can read the logs after each session and find out ways where you can help and offer you time, talent, and treasures to make Ubuntu better.
<akgraner> (Like the one you are attending and participating in now)
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Open Week - Ubuntu Open Week is a series of online workshops where you can: learn about the Ubuntu landscape, talk to some of the key developers from the Ubuntu project, find out about the Community and its relationship with Canonical and participate in an open Q&A with Mark Shuttleworth, the founder of Ubuntu. - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Developer Week - Ubuntu Developer Week is a series of online workshops where you can: learn about different packaging techniques, find out more about different development teams, check out the efforts of the world-wide Development Community, participate in open Q&A sessions with Ubuntu developers - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek
<akgraner> * Ubuntu App Developer Week  - Ubuntu App Developer Week is a week of sessions aimed at enabling and inspiring developers to write applications that scratch their itches. Our goal is to give all attendees a taste of the wide variety of tools on the Ubuntu platform that can be used to create awesome applications, and to showcase some applications that have been created and explain how they were put together. - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/U
<akgraner> buntuAppDeveloperWeek
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuAppDeveloperWeek
<akgraner> * Ubuntu Cloud Days - Ubuntu Cloud Days is a series of online sessions where topics such as the following would be presented:, Answering your questions about Ubuntu and the Cloud, Ubuntu Cloud Images, using Ubuntu with Amazon EC2 cloud, Building your private cloud over Ubuntu Server platform, New virtualization and container technologies in Ubuntu Server, Crunching Big-Data on the cloud
<akgraner> and Scaling your web-apps on the cloud with Ubuntu - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuCloudDays
<akgraner> * Ubuntu User Days - User Days was created to be a set of courses offered during a one day period to teach the beginning or intermediate Ubuntu user the basics to get them started with Ubuntu. User Days is a series of online courses where you can: learn how to install Ubuntu, find equivalent programs in Ubuntu, learn how to get help, learn the basics of how to use Ubuntu, learn how to get involved in the community - https://wiki.ubunt
<akgraner> u.com/UserDays
<akgraner> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDays
<akgraner> ** Remember there is no commUnIty without U and I.  We're in this together.  Hopefully this session will give you a handy dandy guide to find out more information about many of the areas where you can get started with Ubuntu Contribution.
<akgraner> This is by no means a list of every project and place where you can participate and contribute but hopefully it will give you information to get you started and navigate your way around the community **
<akgraner> Ok any questions
<ClassBot> philipballew asked: Do certain areas need more help then others in the community?
<akgraner> Great question - they do but they best way to find out is to go to those teams, and find out their needs  - the is no one place where you can go to find out which team has the greater needs...however, the Ubuntu Community team does a great job of posting the needs of each cycle to the Fridge throughout each of the milestone points in the release cycle
<akgraner> Any other questions?
<akgraner> Remember each team and projects needs people of all skill levels - developers and non-developers alike
<akgraner> all teams and projects have people who will help you get started as well
<akgraner> for example the first mailing list I joined was Ubuntu Women
<akgraner> from there I found out about IRC and joined the project's IRC channel
<akgraner> then found the wiki pages etc
<akgraner> before I become an Ubuntu Member my blog was syndicated to the Ubuntu Webblogs link I listed above
<akgraner> and one thing lead to another
<ClassBot> philipballew asked: if someone sees an area not present in the community they would like to start, is there a way to start that that the community officials find acceptable?
<akgraner> Basically it's what I and others call "do-ology" :-)
<akgraner> A good example of this very think is the Ubuntu Leadership Team
<akgraner> there was a group of folks (myself included) who wanted to offer leadership resources to the community - so we started setting it up and keeping the Ubuntu Community Team as well as members of the Community Council in the know
<akgraner> as far as LoCo teams go you should use the loco directory (link listed above) to see if there is a team in your area if not there is a section on how to start one
<akgraner> You really don't have to "ask permission" from anyone - but always check to see what is out there first - if it deals with forums talk to the forums council, if IRC talk to the IRC council, if it deals with loco teams check with the loco council, if you aren't sure where your project falls under ask the Community Council or other Ubuntu Members etc.
<akgraner> Any other questions?
<akgraner> I know this is a pretty long and concise list, but I didn't want people to have to hunt through a ton of wiki pages and web pages to come up with a solid list to work from
<akgraner> If there are no other questions then I'll end with a Thank you for joining me...  If you find you need help and can't find what you are looking for on this list - then feel free to email me - I may not have all the answers but together we can learn and figure it out - akgraner  AT  ubuntu DOT com.
<akgraner> Thanks again everyone - looking forward to you all getting involved and again if I can help ya - just drop me an email....Have a great day, y'all! :-D
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<akgraner> Oh I'll also be adding this list of resources to my blog and a googledoc for people to add to... akgraner.com so if you want to help keep the list updated that's a way to help as well...
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<akgraner> Thank again everyone!  See you online and hopefully at events throughout the FOSS communities!
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Commandline Basics - Instructors: the_hydra
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<the_hydra> hi guys
<the_hydra> today, I am gonna discuss about few command line basics...to be precise, how to use Bash effectively
<the_hydra> why Bash? strictly because that's the shell you will likely use in your terminal or text console
<the_hydra> if you're in doubt, simple do "echo $SHELL"
<the_hydra> it should yield "/bin/bash"
<the_hydra> alright, so what's the good of using Bash?
<the_hydra> if you just use it simply to type your command like typing machine...then you've missed whole lot features
<the_hydra> start with Tab completion, for example
<the_hydra> suppose you wanna do "ls /usr/share/doc/blahblah/alrighty.txt"
<the_hydra> you type that one by one?
<the_hydra> for God sake, please don't :)
<the_hydra> use Tab completion here.... type "ls" first
<the_hydra> follow it by / and u....press Tab
<the_hydra> if there is no other directory started by /u (and AFAIK there isn't), it will be completed as "/usr" right away
<the_hydra> proceed with "/usr/s"
<the_hydra> press Tab..... no progress, just beep... yes?
<the_hydra> that means you have more than one choices...press Tab again...they will be listed
<the_hydra> that way you can look them up and know what to type ahead
<the_hydra> add "h"...so now it's "/usr/sh"....pressing Tab here should complete it into "/usr/share/"
<the_hydra> do it for the rest of the path
<the_hydra> remember.....no beep....then it is already unique....beep....then press Tab....alternatives will be shown up
<the_hydra> Tab completion works for path and commands
<the_hydra> so far so good, people?
<the_hydra> if you have questions, please keep it later in Q&A
<the_hydra> ok, next...in my favourite tricks list
<the_hydra> bash remembers commands you have type, up to HISTSIZE commands
<the_hydra> usually it is 500
<the_hydra> and it helps you to recall your entered command
<the_hydra> suppose you remember you've entered this jazzy one "find -xdev -type f -mmin -30 -exec cp "{}" /tmp \;"
<the_hydra> that's great....and you wanna recall it
<the_hydra> pressing up won't be a good solution, it could takes ten, maybe 20 or 50 keypresses
<the_hydra> try this , type "find" and press Ctrl+r
<the_hydra> bash will look up in the so called "history"...finding command you've entered starting with "find"
<the_hydra> if that's only "find" you've entered,then great...voila....it will be there....retyped for you....simply press Enter to execute
<the_hydra> what if that's not your "find"? press ctrl-r again and it will look up again....keep pressing it until you found it
<the_hydra> to cancel, Ctrl+C is the key
<the_hydra> ok, proceed....
<the_hydra> how many of you ever get into this situation:
<the_hydra> typing "grep blah /usr/share/doc/abc/xyz.txt"
<the_hydra> right before you press enter, you suddenly realize, "blah" is not really the word you wanna grep
<the_hydra> to make sure, you need to open your note via vi
<the_hydra> ok, usually people just press ctrl+c...just like I did ..once :)
<the_hydra> (shame on me :D )
<the_hydra> after I found it, then i retype same command, only this time I put "grep stuff"
<the_hydra> what a type, right?
<the_hydra> how about this?
<the_hydra> type the first "grep blah...."
<the_hydra> when you about to finish, press Ctrl+U
<the_hydra> zap, they are gone
<the_hydra> open your note...say with vi
<the_hydra> finish, call your command with ctrl+y
<the_hydra> they will be pasted.... time to make few modifications
<the_hydra> no need to retype the whole thing
<the_hydra> okay proceed :)
<the_hydra> we in Ubuntu realm rely on sudo, right people?
<the_hydra> then how many times you jump into this mistake "vi /boot/grub/grub.cfg"
<the_hydra> AFAIK it should fail as normal user
<the_hydra> then you will say "d*******t!!!!!"
<the_hydra> what do you do? press up arrow usually....and add "sudo", yes?
<the_hydra> you guys realize there is faster way?
<the_hydra> how about "sudo !!"
<the_hydra> the magic lies in "!!", it will recall your entire last typed command
<the_hydra> only this time, we put "sudo" in front....so your last reexecuted inside sudo :)
<the_hydra> oh btw, if you guys need to delete a word back, just press Ctrl+W, alright?
<the_hydra> this time, it's old time tips, but useful: many times we need to "ping pong " between two directories
<the_hydra> say, /home/mine and /tmp
<the_hydra> so you do cd /tmp, cd /home/mine alternately?
<the_hydra> could we make it faster?
<the_hydra> yes "cd -" is your friend
<the_hydra> "-" is calling your last working directory
<the_hydra> calling that repeatedly will cause ping pong effect :)
<the_hydra> ok, guess Q&A time now :)
<the_hydra> feel free to ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
<ClassBot> mf|2 asked: how do i stop a process once you start it in vi
<the_hydra> alright, this won't be straightforward....i think best to locate that process using
<the_hydra> pgrep or alike
<the_hydra> make sure that is the task you wanna end up and then send "kill"
<the_hydra> or there's shortcut....pkill <task name>
<the_hydra> I believe vi, in this case, is like opening pipe receiving those processes output...or simply putting them in background
<the_hydra> so you're quite likely safe to "kill" them
<ClassBot> silvertip257 asked: Suggestion really... Introduce word replacement with ^ ... example `grep smtp /etc/services`, but you really wanted to grep for imap (and already ran the command) ... to replace smtp with imap:  ^smtp^imap and press enter
<the_hydra> thanks silvertip257
<the_hydra> that would be good too, so say you type "ls -al <very long path>"
<the_hydra> and now you wanna sort based on size, you can do "^al^alS", Enter
<the_hydra> voila, last command recall-ed as "ls -alS" :)
<the_hydra> allow me to continue a bit
<the_hydra> once in a time, even casual user need to type something really long command
<the_hydra> to me, it's like "diff -u <(veryhackylonglonglong) <(anotherhackypipedlongcommand)
<the_hydra> and you wish your shell is like your  text editor :)
<the_hydra> well indeed you can
<the_hydra> press Ctrl+X, followed by Ctrl+E
<the_hydra> kazaam!!!
<the_hydra> quite likely, it's vi/vim that's called
<the_hydra> with your command as its buffer
<the_hydra> now what? well, edit it as you like :)
<the_hydra> 10 lines? 20? go ahead :)
<the_hydra> after you're done, save it like usual i.e ":wq"
<the_hydra> vi will quit and the command is executed
<the_hydra> the editor called depends on EDITOR environment variable, so you may tweak it i.e
<the_hydra> export EDITOR=/usr/bin/nano
<the_hydra> so next time you press the same key combo, nano will take place :)
<the_hydra> anyway, another example
<the_hydra> you type "ls -l /tmp/junk/note.txt"
<the_hydra> just realize it should be "stat"
<the_hydra> let the first command finish
<the_hydra> then "stat !$"
<the_hydra> "!$" will be substituted with your last command last argument
<the_hydra> kinda useful if you simply wanna take the argument and "dump" the rest
<the_hydra> probably the last tip from me
<the_hydra> for you guys who love scripting
<the_hydra> probably wonders why this "for a in *; do echo $a; done"
<the_hydra> doesn't yield the dot prefixed files/directories?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<the_hydra> that's because "*" doesn't really mean "all"
<the_hydra> so how to make it really yield all of them?
<the_hydra> first, execute "shopt -s dotglob"
<the_hydra> by doing this, it's like saying to Bash "hey, include those dot prefixed files/directories, will you?"
<the_hydra> and then, the "for" line will work as you expected i.e all files no matter it's prefixed with dot or not..are shown
<the_hydra> ok guys, that's all from me...I will take the rest of the time again for Q&A, if you have ones
<the_hydra> and thanks for coming and listening :)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<the_hydra> ok guys, just to add
<the_hydra> few links
<the_hydra> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Bash#Tips_and_tricks
<the_hydra> http://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashFAQ?action=fullsearch&value=linkto%3A%22BashFAQ%22&context=180
<the_hydra> http://tiswww.case.edu/php/chet/readline/rluserman.html
<ClassBot> TheEvilPhoenix asked: What about basic usage of 'sed'?
<the_hydra> many
<the_hydra> here's mine
<the_hydra> sudo sed -i 's/^/#/' /etc/resolv.conf
<the_hydra> that to put "#" mark on every existing line of resolv.conf
<the_hydra> "-i" is used to do "in place" editing
<the_hydra> if not, it won't be reflected back to the file
<the_hydra> or sed -i 2d afile.txt
<the_hydra> to delete second line
<the_hydra> ok time is up I believe
<the_hydra> cheers people...and see you next time :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Finding Help Resources in Ubuntu - Instructors: starcraftman
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<starcraftman> Hello again folks, I'm back.
<starcraftman> A quick introduction for this session, I'm starcraft.man a computer science student, third year in the program. Live in the lovely cold Canada :).
<starcraftman> You can find more about me here > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/starcraft.man. Do need to update my wiki a bit more, been busy.
<starcraftman> This is a big topic, finding help is a hard topic. I've provided a complete outline and links for this presentation at the following link:
<starcraftman> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDaysTeam/natty/FindingHelp
<starcraftman> At the bottom you'll find my entire lecture, it's too long to type out so I'll be copy/pasting. I'll try not to go too fast. I'd like questions reserved to the end due to the amount of information I need to cover.
<starcraftman> I think that's about it, time to go into it.
<starcraftman>  Section 0 - Introduction
<starcraftman>  I'll be covering an important topic today. What to do when things go wrong. It happens to everyone and dealing with it correctly can save a lot of trouble.
<starcraftman>  Please keep questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat as with other sessions. I'd prefer if they were reserved for the end. You're free to ask them during and hopefully someone else can respond. I don't want to be stopping at every question I've a lot of stuff to mention, I'm also pretty sure I've covered most things people will question by end.
<starcraftman>  I'll try to pace these out not too fast. I'll try to pace these out not too fast. I do read a bit fast.
<starcraftman>  If your question remains unanswered by end, I'll take it then from the queue. Please make sure you keep them prefaced with Question so people can see them.
<starcraftman>  Things go wrong. Especially when you can least afford it.
<starcraftman>  The same way gravity unfortunately is still there when you wake up in the morning even if you were dreaming of flying.
<starcraftman>  One minute you are typing away merrily on your word processor then.....
<starcraftman>  [Insert program crash here with some profanity about lost work]
<starcraftman>  Maybe you just finished installing some updates and wham!
<starcraftman>  Some unknown error appears on screen and you don't know what to do.
<starcraftman>  The first rule of getting help is DON'T PANIC. Incidentally, this is also written in big bold letters on the back of a certain book for Hitchhiker's trekking the galaxy.
<starcraftman>  I'd say it's a very good first rule.
<starcraftman>  The focus of this session will dealing with such problems like the aforementioned in a simple and effective manner. By the end, you should be able to gather simple information and on any problem and find help from the most appropriate resource.
<starcraftman>  Section I - Preparing for Help
<starcraftman>  The title sounds a bit silly doesn't it?
<starcraftman>  You'd be surprised how just a few steps make all the difference finding good help.
<starcraftman>  Mostly it will help you narrow the focus of your search. If you reach out to someone else on forums or in person, it's easier to bring them up to speed.
<starcraftman>  The average user skips this step. Usually this is followed by an attempt to use bad or limited information to fix the problem.  The result is getting flustered. At this point they usually reach out to someone else, say on a forum or by email to a friend. This results in more annoyance as they answer many questions they didn't consider at first to give the expert necessary information.
<starcraftman>  In the end, users can get very angry/frustrated.
<starcraftman>  Posting on a forum in a bad mood âMy video is broken, FIX IT!â is not a good way to get help.
<starcraftman>  Consider (as some may know) that the forums are staffed, moderated and questions answered by volunteers not being paid. None of above like seeing rants posted.
<starcraftman>  If you speak like that to your tech friend, well, I don't think he'll be your friend after giving you the fix.
<starcraftman>  More to the point, a lot of your time got wasted. You got upset. You also didn't resolve the problem given the time invested.
<starcraftman>  This leads to rule 2  - âTry to spend time solving a problem yourself before you ask other people for help. If you follow this common courtesy, then it will not be an imposition when you ask for help.â That's from the community wiki. Good quote I'd say.
<starcraftman>  Section 1a - Analysis
<starcraftman>  When something goes wrong, the first thing that's important to do is think what just happened? What was I doing? What crashed? What did I see?
<starcraftman>  Get a piece of paper and a pen and immediately write the answers to those questions down. Write in plain language all the details, you may not think it's important but the person who helps you might disagree.
<starcraftman>  Say for example evolution mail client just crashed, and there's a window that popped up stating so with an error and asking you to file a report. Take down the error, note what you were doing.
<starcraftman>  If the error is a graphical one (like the error window popping up) you might want to take a screenshot of this.
<starcraftman>  Screenshots are just a way of taking an image of the screen, works on Linux just like Windows. Push print screen on the keyboard. Doing so will open up a screenshot application (on any Ubuntu variant), from there save the image to your Desktop.
<starcraftman>  (you can try to printscreen now if you like)
<starcraftman>  We'll see what to do with this image later.
<starcraftman>  Another helpful thing to do in advance of getting help is knowing your hardware (this can especially help with networking/graphics problems). An easy way to get a complete listing of your hardware is to use the following simple command in any terminal (open from menus Applications > Accessories >Terminal) and using the command:
<starcraftman>  sudo lshw > ~/Desktop/hardware.txt
<starcraftman>  This command creates a file called hardware.txt that you can open and browse on your desktop. It lists all components of your PC, CPU, RAM, Graphics card, Network interfaces, etc... There are a few commands that produce more precise output (like just listing PCI cards) but this covers everything with one shot.
<starcraftman>  The similar commands are lspci, lsusb, lsbpcmia, all listing what the command is named.
<starcraftman>  Very useful. (You can try too, takes a moment)
<starcraftman>  After jotting down this information and taking a screenshot we can proceed to play detective. Ask yourself what went wrong?
<starcraftman>  Did the internet stop working for instance? That would be a networking issue.
<starcraftman>  IT detective work involves narrowing things down through categories, you start at the top and work your way down specifying at each new level until the problem is clear.
<starcraftman>  You might not have enough experience to solve it completely, but getting a start with what you know can go a long way.
<starcraftman>  It's hard to say how much effort you should put in before moving on. Usually it becomes clear when you can no longer write or deduce anything else.
<starcraftman>  Section 2 - Power Searching Google
<starcraftman>  So the first stop is a search engine. I'll use Google for this example, any engine should work.
<starcraftman>  The reason to search is another rule- If you're having a problem, 99.9% of the time someone else has had the same one and posted its solution.
<starcraftman>  At this point, if everyone can go to www.google.com that'd be great.
<starcraftman>  Or your local version . I recommend google.ca :)
<starcraftman>  Power searching is when you do more than simply type key words into Google. By default, each word is searched successively. For example, do the following three searches separately in Google and see the difference:
<starcraftman>  DC Batman Robin Crusader
<starcraftman> "Batman Robin Crusader"
<starcraftman>  DC OR Batman OR Robin OR Crusader
<starcraftman> Copy them verbatim into Google and you'll see quite the difference in the results returned after pushing enter.
<starcraftman> I'll wait a few seconds.
<starcraftman>  The first time (first search with no quotes) Google searches for DC and finds all pages with references to it, then cross-references with all pages with Batman. The overlap becomes the new base and then further narrowed by overlap with Robin and Crusader. The search operation descends one word at a time, so the first word is most important and more general usually.
<starcraftman> This means in the first case we narrow with every new term.
<starcraftman>  When searching in Google âDC Batman Robin Crusaderâ you humorously get 4 results (all in fact logs of this very speech :D), very different from before. In this instance, Google searched for the string (a computer science term referring to the quoted line) as a whole, the exact sequence of words in the order inside the quotes is simply never used (it is incoherent as a sentence after all). The last one returns well over a
<starcraftman> million results.
<starcraftman> The last one returned so many because we found every page that had "DC" or "Batman" etc..., a lot of pages on these :)
<starcraftman>  Now time to get to the meat of this. Everyone go to Google homepage and click âAdvancedâ on the right.
<starcraftman>  Here's the advanced search page, a lot of people don't know about it. It is very handy.
<starcraftman> http://www.google.com/advanced_search
<starcraftman>  Immediately I'd like you to note the box at the top highlighted in blue stating âUse the form...â, here you will see the actual search string used when you enable all these advanced tricks. Look up every time you try something else.
<starcraftman>  This means that this is the actual search you could use alternatively in the standard Google Search box, you'll see what I mean as I go.
<starcraftman>  First two lines cover what I've already explained.
<starcraftman>  The third is the Boolean OR search. This means that rather than only take the overlap (or intersection) between DC and Batman, a search for DC OR Batman would include all results from the individual searches for DC and all results from Batman. Rather than narrow down this really widens a search with every new result, use carefully.
<starcraftman>  "Don't show these pages" does exactly what it says, put keywords here and all pages with them will be subtracted from the search. Excellent at excluding specific things.
<starcraftman>  "Search within site or domain" is another useful one. Your entire search is then confined to the site listed. You can also limit by domain, so .edu limits it to educational websites indexed by Google on the internet.
<starcraftman>  Take a moment and play around with these modifiers to search, take note of the top line that shows how the modifiers are used. You can combine many, like a site search, all these words and language.
<starcraftman>  "Filetype" does as it says and limits your search to an extension, say .pdf or .txt. Any extension is valid (though limited in the drop down, on a text search you specify what you want).
<starcraftman>  Language and results are self explanatory.
<starcraftman>  Click on "Date, usage rights, numeric range, and more..." here you'll find even more advanced though less commonly used modifiers.
<starcraftman>  These are mostly obvious, you can check pages by date, search with numeric ranges (like price), confine it to a geographic region, search based on sites usage rights (click the link for more explanation on that, itâs outside my scope).
<starcraftman>  Page specific tools are interesting; first one lets you specify a page and Google will find something similar. Second lets you identify pages that link to page x.
<starcraftman>  One thing not here is wildcard modifier for search.
<starcraftman>  * is the wildcard. Say I knew part of a word, say.... nvidia but I only knew it started with nvid. Searching nvid* produces nvidia as top result. It isn't always most useful given there might be words that complete the wildcard that you maybe don't want included.
<starcraftman>  Careful with wildcards, they can be quite loose depending on how much of the word you put and Googleâs ranking algorithm.
<starcraftman>  I don't have time to go into all of them. I will warn, don't be tempted to use too many. The more you employ the less results will appear. Often just one or two of these modifiers makes the difference.
<starcraftman>  Say you have a video problem; you want to check whether other people have had trouble with it. It's an nvidia 8800GT. You know Ubuntu Forums usually has people posting about such things. You fill "ubuntuforums.org" in Site Search box, "nvidia 8800 GT" in all these words then search. Voila.
<starcraftman>  I don't have time to cover all the nuance of power searching. I will leave you with a good site for those interested. http://www.googleguide.com/ . See the section start now that best applies to you.
<starcraftman>  Another page to note is Ubuntu Search at http://search.ubuntu.com/
<starcraftman>  As it says on its homepage, by default it only searches Ubuntu related sites like the Wikis and Forums.
<starcraftman>  Though it doesn't have an advanced option per se, I'm pretty sure it supports most of the above function. You just have to do it manually via text modifiers.
<starcraftman>  lil pause here again, so people can catch up.
<starcraftman>  Section 3 - System Documentation and Wiki
<starcraftman>  For this section we will cover Ubuntu's official documentation.
<starcraftman>  System Docs are the documentation that comes with any standard Ubuntu installation, these are accessible locally even without a net connection.
<starcraftman>  On the main panel, notice the blue question mark. Please click it. If you don't have it, see System > Help and Support (KDE users open up K Menu and search for help, first option). (For GNOME 2.x users)
<starcraftman> For unity folks, open the menu and search for Help.
<starcraftman>  Note: If youâre not on Ubuntu at this moment, you won't of course.
<starcraftman>  Here you will find the documentation promised. It's a gem overlooked often by people in need of help. Feel free to click around.
<starcraftman>  On the main page at the right you'll see some common questions. At the left is most of the main sections covered like "New to Ubuntu?", go ahead and click it, new options appear, pick what you like. You can always go back to beginning with the Home button (the house) on the Toolbar at the top.
<starcraftman>  The documentation contains a lot of answers to common questions and introductory material you can read to understand Ubuntu.
<starcraftman>  Do a test search and scroll to the bottom. You'll see repeat this search online, click it. Presto, you're back at search.ubuntu.com, nifty. I only just found that one.
<starcraftman>  Feel free to explore later, need to continue.
<starcraftman>  Go back to homepage pls (push home button as mentioned on the toolbar).
<starcraftman>  I'd like to note at the home page you can find the Free Support link, directing you to a lot of materials I'll talk about.
<starcraftman>  A newer project to mention quick is the manual project. It's a pdf that serves as a beginnerâs tutorial, does offer explanations of many common things. While not a diagnostic tool per se it can be searched by contents and text search, see http://ubuntu-manual.org/ for more details.
<starcraftman>  Next is the Wikis, we have two.
<starcraftman>  The help wiki you'll be most interested in is at- https://help.ubuntu.com/ . The other site is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ . This second site I tell you to prevent confusion, it is primarily for organization of teams. Help.ubuntu.com as the name implies stores all the help documents. Use the first one, not the second.
<starcraftman>  People often don't understand, these are official sites. They aren't like a wikia, a spin off by fans.
<starcraftman>  So take a moment and load up https://help.ubuntu.com/
<starcraftman>  Here you'll see listed the versions of Ubuntu still in support (i.e. 11.04, 10.10, these are links to their documentation). Clicking any of the versions will take you to an online version of the system pages, useful if you need it on the internet for reference.
<starcraftman>  (if youâre not on Ubuntu at this moment, you can now browse system docs)
<starcraftman>  Some people prefer the system docs in their browser, it's got a different feel. The content is to my knowledge exactly the same though.
<starcraftman>  At the bottom you'll see a link on upgrade notes, useful for upgrades.
<starcraftman>  More interesting is the community link, please click it https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ < to be clear.
<starcraftman>  This is the main wiki area it is maintained entirely by the community (folks like me) in an effort to document the software of Ubuntu and problems that arise. Browse all the information on the main page.
<starcraftman>  The bulk of documentation is in English, it is however translated into other languages where available.
<starcraftman>  You can of course probably use Google translate if you need a page in english to another.
<starcraftman>  See the "Getting Started with Ubuntu" section. Here is some beginner stuff you can read, there are also three subsequent sections underneath with useful links to stuff beginners need like Installation help and learning more information about their system.
<starcraftman>  This is all good reading material even if you don't have an immediate problem.
<starcraftman>  Next, have a look at the "Finding Your Way with Ubuntu" section.
<starcraftman>  Say hello to Signpost.
<starcraftman> (Scroll down some to get to it fyi)
<starcraftman>  Its aim is simple, to start with the general and try and narrow down to the right information.
<starcraftman>  Click "get Help", and click around some. It's fairly easy. Different sections have different focus, some on help, filing bugs, some for programmers. See what you need.
<starcraftman>  Now lastly, search (top right). Say for example I'm having a video problem with my nvidia card. It won't display my maximum resolution. Do a quick search here for "video nvidia" and see what pops up. Or maybe I just want to learn a good way to backup my system... search for "backup system". Shameless plug,  top result is one of my pages. Good reading.
<starcraftman>  Search will present you with relevant pages, as long as you know what you're looking for. If you do the preparation at the beginning this shouldn't be a problem.
<starcraftman>  The community wiki is my preferred resource for a wide variety of problems. It's up to date and usually covers problems/software in a timely fashion.
<starcraftman> About half way, hope this isn't too fast. Still got just under half to go.
<starcraftman>  Section 4 - Forums
<starcraftman>  Next, www.ubuntuforums.org
<starcraftman>  An excellent site, when in doubt posting here is reasonably certain to get you a good answer. There's an art to posting though, as well as a wrong way to do it.
<starcraftman>  While I'm explaining, feel free to sign up, click Register at left.
<starcraftman>  Forums are openID enabled so if you know what that is, you can use it.
<starcraftman>  First let's look at the structure. The most relevant section is Absolute Beginners Talk. It's come to be a catch all for new people and just problems in general, it gets the most eyeballs. If you post here with reasonable amount of information problem is usually resolved in one or two posts.
<starcraftman>  The next section is the Main Support Categories, it offers more specialized help for those with... more exotic problems. Advanced server configurations or some more obscure problems. It's less used by beginners and is less frequented by support people. I'd encourage you to stick with ABT unless you've posted there and not gotten a reply in a reasonable time.
<starcraftman>  The remainder of the site is aimed less at support than discussion/development. You can peruse it at your own leisure.
<starcraftman>  Time to discuss posting etiquette on the forums, what to do/not do.
<starcraftman>  We have a full list of things you have to agree to at register I believe, this is just a rundown of pet peeves and things that really shouldn't happen.
<starcraftman>  Don't TYPE IN CAPS OR with LOTS of exclamations!!!!! CAPS usually infer yelling and exclamations excessively used are annoying.
<starcraftman>  Don't curse or insult other members offering help. If you wouldn't say it to someone standing next to you, it generally shouldn't be posted.
<starcraftman>  Don't demand help in the title/topic like "Fix this or I'm leaving Ubuntu". We aren't prone to offering better help when threatened. This is an unfortunate practice by people who get frustrated, it also gets attention quickly. It is incredibly rude and doesn't make things easier.
<starcraftman>  Don't post in the ABT, wait a minute then repost the same thread in different sections. This is annoying. Post in one section (I recommend ABT) and wait for response. It may take 10 minutes or 20, or more, no more than a few hours usually. If so, you can bump your forum post.
<starcraftman>  A bump of course is just you replying to the post and pushing it back to the top of cue of threads so it is noticed.
<starcraftman>  Now a few pointers to actual posting, you can click New Reply somewhere (doesn't matter where) to follow along (just don't submit please).
<starcraftman> (You can follow this along, just remember don't push submit. Don't want the forum mods blaming me :) )
<starcraftman> Oh and you'll need to be signed in to follow this part.
<starcraftman>  Do make your post title pertinent to your problem. If you don't have any internet on the machine then "I don't have internet" is better than "problem needs fixing". You don't need to convey too much information, just the general category of problem. Including the version of Ubuntu might also be good.
<starcraftman>  To the left of title you'll find prefix, please select your version of Ubuntu. When it's solved, edit your first post and change the prefix to Solved.
<starcraftman>  The solved tag is useful, it tells people searching the archives your problem was resolved. So they can rely on the proposed fix.
<starcraftman>  This is nice, also goes back to one of the rules.
<starcraftman>  I'd like to make a note here- to the right of the title is "Check if Already Posted". Please click this after writing in a title it will quickly search all previous posts for related information. Experiment with different titles. Often your question has already been answered. Don't be afraid to detour and read some of these pages, you can always return to new post and submit it.
<starcraftman>  Just another way of preventing double posts, we get a lot of similar questions.
<starcraftman>  Goes back to the 99.9% of all problems have happened before :).
<starcraftman>  In your first post, try to put as much information as you can. Now is the time to consult that page we wrote earlier. Explain what you were doing, what went wrong, and what you have since learned (maybe from wiki). Nothing's too small, at the same time, don't write pages.
<starcraftman>  Take a note of the GUI at top of the forum reply, there is # button.
<starcraftman> (Bar ontop of the text box I mean)
<starcraftman>  This is for the code tag.
<starcraftman>  People will often use it responding, if you want to post the hardware.txt file output use these tags. It stops the page overflowing, puts an inline scrollbar instead. Handy.
<starcraftman>  Screenshots can be hosted at sites like http://www.imgur.com or as attachments to the post (scroll down on new post page, click Manage Attachments). These are very useful.
<starcraftman>  Images hosted on imgur you just copy the forum link and paste in the body of reply. The attachments way automates this. No preference to me, attachments do better integrate with site.
<starcraftman> (Pictures really do help, post when possible and think it's pertinent)
<starcraftman>  When you're happy with your post, submit it (don't push now). Someone should get back to you with instructions in a timely and friendly fashion.
<starcraftman>  Some people ask how do I know the instructions will help? Or to trust the person giving? Well, there isn't a rule per se.
<starcraftman>  I for instance have a very large post count; does that imply a user should trust me? I guess. Though when I started posting I only had a post count of 1, my knowledge has improved since but my advice was still usually helpful based on what I knew.
<starcraftman>  The rule I'd say is, does it sound right and well explained? A person who knows their stuff should be able to convey relevant information and convince you it's the right thing to do.
<starcraftman> (That said, there aren't any guarantees on the advice, it is a volunteer support forum)
<starcraftman>  A few closing comments on the forums.
<starcraftman>  It's a helpful resource; it harnesses the collective experience of thousands of geeks like me. Do remember we all volunteer for no pay.
<starcraftman>  Also, a few helpful links you might enjoy are- http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1052065
<starcraftman>  A free beginners guide PDF to getting started.
<starcraftman>  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=801404
<starcraftman>  ^ A general launch point to many good forum guides written by people who know their stuff.
<starcraftman>  A general launch point to many good forum guides written by people who know their stuff.
<starcraftman>  Section 4.5 - IRC (Real  quick)
<starcraftman> No session on IRC for this day, information about it can be found here (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/XChatHowto).  That page will get you started with XChat and youâll understand the basics.
<starcraftman> I only want to point out that IRC can be used for support. Channels such as #ubuntu, #kubuntu and #ubuntu-beginners are all good stops. A good run down of channels and getting help is available here- https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<starcraftman> I only want to point out that IRC can be used for support. Channels such as #ubuntu, #kubuntu and #ubuntu-beginners are all good stops. A good run down of channels and getting help is available here- https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat
<starcraftman> (oops)
<starcraftman> ( Donât click the #links, they will open IRC client to somewhere else).
<starcraftman>  The web page lists the channels, what they focus and how to fix her up.
<starcraftman> Anyway, that's that, on to the next stop.
<starcraftman>  Section 5 - Launchpad
<starcraftman>  I'm going to try and make this brief, I don't want to cover benonsoftware topic (see agenda for time), and heâs devoting a whole hour to launchpad.
<starcraftman>  Launchpad is however the place to go when all of the above doesn't get you an answer. You have two choices.
<starcraftman>  First is the answers section, see here- https://answers.launchpad.net/
<starcraftman>  Launchpad Answers is basically a section designed to let the people working on the projects answer your question.
<starcraftman>  Please note, you need to be signed up to use this site. If you want, you can sign up now in preparation for later with benonsoftware. A nice plus, any launchpad account is automatically an openID, can be used on other sites supporting such login.
<starcraftman>  Say I have a problem with music playing in rhythmbox, so esoteric that none of the above helped.
<starcraftman>  (by above, I mean the other resources)
<starcraftman>  Go to answers home, click choose one project and type in rhythmbox. This takes you right to the project answer section. See if your problem is listed. If not, you can file a question here in much the same way as you would a bug (bug filing is last resort).
<starcraftman>  Click ask a new question and fill it out (don't submit again). Someone should get back to you in a reasonable time. (don't file a question at this time...)
<starcraftman>  People are very active in the Ubuntu project answering the Answers section, you might consider posting there more generally before in a specific project like rhythmbox.
<starcraftman>  Next is a quick bug filing run down. Click bugs section at the top of rhythmbox. At the right, on top of ask a question is now Report a Bug.
<starcraftman>  Click this only if you want to file a bug, please don't file them without being sure it's a bug and having searched existing bugs. Devs get a lot of duplicates that don't help.
<starcraftman>  There's a structure to filling reports, benonsoftware should cover this. It's important to put more not less info, as specific as you can so devs can reproduce bugs, test and fix.
<starcraftman>  Launchpad is a good service, though I'm more of a doc person so I guess I'm biased to recommend system then wiki docs.
<starcraftman>  That's it on LP, please stay tuned later for more.
<starcraftman> I'm gonna take a short break here.
<starcraftman> and back
<starcraftman>  Section 6 - AskUbuntu.com
<starcraftman>  So now a new interesting site. AskUbuntu. Please go to the following url: http://askubuntu.com/questions . It's a Stack Overflow type site that some may be familiar with.
<starcraftman>  Basically, you can post questions on the site and tag them with certain keywords. Other users then look through the unanswered section and write answers. Answers are voted up or down based on other users thoughts and you can validate that the users answer is the best or not helpful at all.
<starcraftman>  To start using you can sign up if you want in top right (login). It isn't strictly required.
<starcraftman>  Use the Ask Question > button in the header to make a question and then wait a while until it gets an answer.
<starcraftman>  You'll also see a Tags section, where you can search based on sorted tags to find questions already asked.
<starcraftman>  Unanswered section like name implies sorts and lists questions that are still open and waiting an answer. Lastly, there is Users sections. Here you can see the history of a person's answers on the site, maybe you want to know if they have a good history of suggestions. You can also see their shiny badges I suppose.
<starcraftman>  The Site isn't directly run by Ubuntu, but many of its top contributors are long standing members of the community.
<starcraftman>  That's about it, poke around and don't be shy to ask questions. :)
<starcraftman>  Section 7 - Closing
<starcraftman>  When confronted by a problem, stop and think. Don't panic.
<starcraftman>  Write down all pertinent information that you know.
<starcraftman>  Then use the right resource. I usually start with a search or wiki documentation.
<starcraftman>  http://search.ubuntu.com is fast becoming a favourite of mine to get quick answers as it indexes most of the good resources.
<starcraftman> Search them carefully and if you can't find relevant info ask in ABT for help with all the information you know. There's also of course IRC as an alternative to getting interactive help.
<starcraftman>  Next if that doesn't work, see Launchpad answers/bug system as relevant.
<starcraftman>  There's no hard fast rule, it's more of an experience thing finding good answers. The more you do it the easier it becomes. It's not too intimidating now I hope.
<starcraftman>  Do please consider where the information comes from before doing anything, if you do a Google search and you find a lone blog post detailing an answer with no comments or any affiliation with Ubuntu that's been abandoned by the poster, you should hesitate.
<starcraftman>  Where the information comes from is important.
<starcraftman> Just like when writing a paper we can't just quote everything/attribute to Wikipedia :)
<starcraftman>  I know it's a lot of information to absorb, I hope you've found it helpful.
<starcraftman>  I have extra links I may not have mentioned on my outline as listed at the beginning. Click and browse them at your leisure.
<starcraftman> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserDaysTeam/natty/FindingHelp
<starcraftman> Link again just for a reminder.
<starcraftman> Hole speech there too if you missed a part.
<starcraftman> Whole*
<starcraftman> That's it, guess we can start with the questions.
<starcraftman> Oh, no questions in the queue, ok.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> nlsthzn asked: any idea the criteria for mentioning ask ubuntu in the oneiric installation slides as oposed to the forum (or isn't that falling in the scope of this session)?
<starcraftman> nlsthzn: I don't really know how the slides for installation are decided to be honest. I guess has to do more with buzz than anything else. I think all the resources I've mentioned are equally valid methods with pros and cons. Comes down to preference.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> ScottSanbar asked: What is buzz?
<starcraftman> Buzz: Slight internet slang, means popular, trending among people in the know.
<DarkwingDuck> pleia2: hwo do you want to do this? You want to go first?
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Desktop Alternatives: KDE and XFCE4 - Instructors: DarkwingDuck, pleia2
<pleia2> yeah I'll start with the intro, you can go into kde
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<pleia2> Hi everyone, welcome to our session on Desktop Alternatives!
<pleia2> Quick introductions, I'm Elizabeth Krumbach, a member of the Ubuntu Community Council and I've been using Xubuntu since my first *buntu install and have been using XFCE since 2003. My day job is as Debian Sysadmin.
<DarkwingDuck> Iâm David Wonderly. I am a member of the Kubuntu Council and admin Kubuntu System Documentation. I started with linux in the mid 90s with Red Hat and went to full time Ubuntu in 2005. I switched to Kubuntu in 2006. I am a freelance writer and web developer.
<pleia2> To jump right in, a Desktop Environment is the full interface, including Window Manager, panels, menus, engines, tools and applications which are put or built to work together.
<pleia2> By default, when you install Ubuntu you will get "Gnome" as your Desktop Environment with Unity as the "shell" and in this class we'll be exploring some of the other options for a Desktop Environment: KDE and XFCE.
<pleia2> I will note, as it can be confusing, but a "Window Manager" is not a "Desktop Environment" it's only a part of one. At the core, a Window Manager simply handles the behavior of the windows on your screen.
<pleia2> To add complexity, we've also been hearing a lot about "Unity" and "Gnome Shell" - a "Shell" in the graphical sense is more than a Window Manager and less than a Desktop Environment.
<pleia2> So, why would you want to switch from Gnome, the default in Ubuntu, to a different Desktop Environment?
<pleia2> One popular reason is simply preference. Give another one a try! You may like you find out how customizable the panels that are in XFCE, or the flashy widgets that are in KDE.
<pleia2> Another is speed/performance. Some let you slim down your environment by loading up fewer things by default, some are faster (usually by sacrificing eye candy), some work with lighter window managers which may run better on your system.
<pleia2> Any questions so far?
<pleia2> ok, DarkwingDuck is going to talk a bit about KDE now :)
<DarkwingDuck> Thanks pleia2
<DarkwingDuck> KDE is not just a Desktop Environment but it also includes it's own window manager
<DarkwingDuck> From the look of KDE within Kubuntu it has a look and feel of windows. The application launcher is in the bottom left with the main panel on the bottom.
<DarkwingDuck> But, as you start to dig deeper within KDE you will find it is much much more.
<DarkwingDuck> Oh yeah, if you have ANY questions while I am talking please stop me and ask.
<DarkwingDuck> KDE is build on Plasma. This allows for changing of different workspaces without changing any settings.
<DarkwingDuck> So, it can look like your standard desktop in one workspace and quickly move to a netbook (Called Seach and containment) workspace on the fly.
<DarkwingDuck> When installing KDE with Kubuntu the installer will auto detect you system. If you are using a netbook it will read the screen resolution and auto pick teh workspace that fits your needs form one installer.
<DarkwingDuck> It will also turn on and off different effects depending on what your hardware can handle.
<DarkwingDuck> Plasma is widget based. Everything on the panels and the desktops are widgets.
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: how well do applications made for one desktop environment run in another?  Do they integrate well?
<pleia2> in XFCE you can enable the gnome and kde background stuff if you want to get their apps to launch faster, most applications work fine though
<DarkwingDuck> mhall119: It all comes down to the libraries. KDE is Qt based while Gnome uses GTK. So, to run some applications you will need to install firther things but, for the most part it all works together.
<DarkwingDuck> Another thing that KDE and plasma has done is introduce Activities.
<DarkwingDuck> Now, this *can* get very confusing but, bare with me as I try to explain it.
<DarkwingDuck> The idea is this: You break the desktop up into activities so each desktop is very well defined by what that desktop does. You could have one desktop for writing, one desktop for programming, one desktop for entertainment.
<DarkwingDuck> This seemed like a redundancy in Linux, what with the existence of the pager and all. But as KDE grew a bit older and wiser, the usage of this feature become more and more clear.
<DarkwingDuck> Image this: You have a desktop for each of four activities (Weâll just say âA, B, C, and Dâ). This is simple to break down using the Linux pager. You would have Activity A on Desktop 1, Activity B on Desktop 2, Activity C on Desktop 3, and Activity D on Desktop 4. Now letâs say these activities become quite busy. You would then have a lot of windows open on each activity, making a veritable mess out of your efficient worksp
<DarkwingDuck> Now, take that idea and expand it with KDE Activities. Each Activity now has itâs own multi-dimensional workspace. Each Activity has however many workspaces you have defined on your desktop.
<DarkwingDuck> So if you have four workspaces each of those activities will have four workspaces to use. As well, you can associate specific windows with specific Activities (or specific workspaces within a specific Activity). This allows you to organize your activities with much more control over the standard method.
<DarkwingDuck> This is where it starts to become obvious how effective activities can be. Letâs say you have a desktop Activity associated with Writing. For that activity you use a word processor, a web browser, and some other random applications.
<DarkwingDuck> You can assosiate those windows to that certen activity
<DarkwingDuck> Now that window will ONLY be visible on that particular activity. You can then open a completely different window (of the same application) and associate with a different activity.
<DarkwingDuck> The concept of Activities isnât the easiest to understand until you actually start working with it. But once you get the hang of it, you will certainly appreciate what it brings to the desktop.
<DarkwingDuck> Everyone with me so far?
<ClassBot> the_hydra asked: so Plasma is like the window manager?
<DarkwingDuck> In a way...
<DarkwingDuck> Plasma controls both the window manager AND everything within the dekstop. It's an intergrated system.
<DarkwingDuck> KDE coems with a "One stop shopping" for system settings
<DarkwingDuck> The window manager and everything else is controled from there so, you don't have to go chasing things about. There are also themes for the WM. Example: We have a GTK Oxygen theme so that the WM will flow better with GTK programs
<DarkwingDuck> Does anyone have any questions about KDE? I could go on for hours but, I want to give pleia2 a chance to talk too. :)
<DarkwingDuck> Oh!
<ClassBot> nlsthzn asked: I don't get "activities"?! Any words of wisdom on using this feature?
<ClassBot> nlsthzn asked: When will Ubuntu One be fully integrated with Kubuntu/KDE?
<DarkwingDuck> Already hit hte activities sorry for that. Ubuntu One.
<DarkwingDuck> We keep trying to intergrate Ubuntu One into Kubuntu. the issue has been that once we get a stable version working Ubuntu One changes the APIs around a bit. We find out about it a tad late and are two steps behind.
<DarkwingDuck> apachelogger has been working with the Ubuntu One people to get a client working.
<ClassBot> TheEvilPhoenix asked: For KDE, are there recommended minimum hardware specs to run KDE?
<DarkwingDuck> TheEvilPhoenix: Give me a moment. I'm not sure we have them listed. I run KDE on an old desktop with 900mhz and less then a gig of ram.
<DarkwingDuck> TheEvilPhoenix: I'm not finding it. Please email me and I will find the answer for you.
<DarkwingDuck> Any other KDE questions?
<DarkwingDuck> Okay, I posted my email address in -chat so, if you have further questions re KDE/Kubuntu please, feel free to email me or ask after pleia2
<ClassBot> the_hydra asked: seems like KDE visual effect doesn't really need good video card?
<DarkwingDuck> for the higher end effects yes. My 3 year old netbook keeps up with them very very well.
<DarkwingDuck> You can turn desktop effects off and have a very high end looking graphic expirence.
<DarkwingDuck> Okay pleia2, before I hijack any more of your time.
<pleia2> :)
<pleia2> ok, on to XFCE! XFCE is the Desktop Environment that comes with Xubuntu, you can find some details about it over at http://xfce.org/
<pleia2> here's a screenshot of the default you'll see when you load up xubuntu 11.04: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/xubuntu/natty/xubuntu_desktop.png
<pleia2> pretty familiar layout I think, no big surprises :) the mouse at the top left is your menu, at the bottom you have a panel you can add/remove stuff from
<ClassBot> mhall119 asked: pleia2, does Xfce use GTK 3 now, or is it still on GTK 2?
<pleia2> the latest stable release (4.8) still on gtk2
<pleia2> Now Xubuntu with Xfce itself differs from Ubuntu not just in environment,  it doesn't come with Open Office, instead it comes with lighter-weight "abiword" for word processing and "gnumeric" for spreadsheets.
<pleia2> Xfce uses the XFwm by default for the window manager. It uses Thunar for a basic file manager, as sorta seen here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/xubuntu/natty/xubuntu_thunar.png
<pleia2> as you can see it's a pretty basic file manager, there are a bunch of wishlist items for expanding it
<ClassBot> the_hydra asked: which is lighter, Xubuntu or Lubuntu?
<pleia2> lubuntu, no question, xubuntu doesn't really strive to be light, it's more about being simple and easy to configure
<pleia2> (you won't see the light claim on xubuntu.org anymore)
<pleia2> The Xfce panels (at the top and bottom in the screenshot) have their own items you can add, but you can also use some gnome panel items
<pleia2> one of my favorite things is that you can do things like add multiple clocks :) I have three timezone clocks in my panel
<pleia2> You can check out some more screenshots from the default Xubuntu here: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/xubuntu/natty/
<pleia2> And a screenshot of my desktop on Thursday night: http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/xubuntu/natty/xubuntu_092211.png (when I was prepping for this class :))
<pleia2> Most of what you'll find app-wise is that Xubuntu takes apps from elsewhere, you can even run the Gnome and KDE services in the background so things launch more quickly even on Xfce
<pleia2> for me, configurability and simplicity are what I love about it, before Xfce I used Enlightenment and fluxbox, both of which were also simple but could be tricky to configure (a lot of manual editing of config files)
<pleia2> Xfce gives me simple + pretty configuration dialogs http://people.ubuntu.com/~lyz/xubuntu/natty/n-xubuntu-settings.png
<pleia2> any more questions?
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<DarkwingDuck> anyone have any more questions on XFCE or KDE?
<ClassBot> charlie-tca asked: Ubuntu has switched over to a non-standard interface with Unity. Are there any plans for either KDE or Xfce to follow that pattern?
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<pleia2> fortunately there are no plans for Xfce to follow this pattern
<DarkwingDuck> KDE already did (In a way). When we changed from KDE3 to KDE4 it introduced Plasma. It was our unified system if you will.
<DarkwingDuck> There are no plans for us to change what works :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Ubuntu Equivalent Programs - Instructors: philipballew
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<philipballew> ====Ubuntu Software and Software like it in Windws/Osx====
<philipballew> Thanks for coming everybody
<philipballew> we will be talking about software you normally might be used to using in Windows or OSX and what Software that does the same purpose can be found in Ubuntu
<philipballew> As many of you are used to certain software available in Windows and OSX and might not be aware of ones in Linux  systems, you are curious as to what there is.
<philipballew> I will List all the main Pieces of software here first and then Answer all questions in the time we have. It is a first come, first serve basis
<philipballew> If any questions are technical based, I will be available after the session to provide support if people in #ubuntu-classroom-chat are unable to.
<philipballew> ^ for help installing
<philipballew> If you need to contact me personally, feel free to pm me or email me. philipballew@ubuntu.com
<philipballew> So everybody knows who I am Let me send a link to my Ubuntu Wiki. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/philipballew
<philipballew> Here We go!
<philipballew> Office
<philipballew> Where in OSX and Windows computers, The average users user Microsoft Office, the Average Ubuntu user uses one of these office suites
<philipballew> the Main program was open office
<philipballew> but now starting with 1104 it is Libre office
<philipballew> this software provides the ability to type documents make spreadsheets and slide shows
<philipballew> this is the default software
<philipballew> other's might be Open Office Koffice Abi-Word Gnumeric
<philipballew> Open office is like L O as its whats L.O. is bassed off of
<philipballew> koffice is for KDE
<philipballew> the other 2 are good for any computer, but usually used on lowed end computers
<philipballew> lubuntu and xubuntu have used them
<philipballew> With L.E the one most all ubuntu users are using it has the ability to save in a doc format if needed. but this is not the default
<philipballew> next type of app
<philipballew> Multimedia
<philipballew> Multimedia and Ubuntu can go hand in hand. If you plan to use your computer for mainly media/multimedia I recommend installing Ubuntu Studio. http://ubuntustudio.org/
<philipballew> but all apps can be installed on ubuntu or any type as were mentioned in the previous session
<philipballew> in many computer users groups and sectors when people think of graphical editing one word comes to mind
<philipballew> photoshop
<philipballew> ubuntu has a great photoshop program in Gimp
<philipballew> it can do wonders to any photo. it is similar to Adobe Photoshop
<philipballew> if anyone needs to edit photos in Ubuntu they should use Gimp
<philipballew> for users who have used Adobe Illastrator there is Inkscape
<philipballew> it is a very powerful editing program
<philipballew> Audio
<philipballew> Itunes is really set the standard for a music playing application in the past several years, And Ubuntu had great software for you to enjoy.
<philipballew> the default in ubuntu is going to be Banshee
<philipballew> it plays many audio formats as it uses gstreamer as a back-end
<philipballew> the older default of Rhythmbox is a great player and will play anything you need
<philipballew> with Linux and ubuntu it is all about choice
<philipballew> just because you might see Banshee as a app when you install you can trash it and try something else
<philipballew> there is also Amrok
<philipballew> a very nice player made for the kde ui but will play on gnome as well if you are not a Kubuntu user
<philipballew> now if you want to play music in the shell
<philipballew> or the terminal for instance
<philipballew> i recomend either Cmus/mp3blaster
<philipballew> all these are great software that will work
<philipballew> if you have an Ipod you can use that on Ubuntu as welll
<philipballew> *well
<philipballew> these apps will support them. I dont think Cmus or mp3blaster does.
<philipballew> there are also apps that there only purpose is for updating or managing your ipod
<philipballew> gtkpod is one of them
<philipballew> Video Editing
<philipballew> OSX,Windows Software Might be something like windows Movie Maker or After -Effects
<philipballew> in Ubuntu there is some good options such as kdenlive and openshot
<philipballew> kdenlive has been around for a while
<philipballew> openshot is good. and can add 3d effects with blender
<philipballew> Audio Editing
<philipballew> Gauge band is a pretty popular audio editing software application for computers these days. In Ubuntu there are several pieces of software you can use
<philipballew> Audacity is a good one
<philipballew> it can edit all your audio files
<philipballew> Ardour can also
<philipballew> once you get used to a piece of software you'll know its ends and outs. It may be different at first. but can become like the back of your hand soon
<philipballew> Internet Browsers
<philipballew> Ubuntu comes by default with Firefox
<philipballew> however,
<philipballew> there are many browsers you can use in its place
<philipballew> one is Google Chrome
<philipballew> Google Chrome is a popular browser on all platforms just like FF
<philipballew> with google chrome you need to download a repository off their website
<philipballew> let me post the link here
<philipballew> https://www.google.com/support/chrome/bin/answer.py?answer=95346
<philipballew> here is instructions on that
<philipballew> but you can, Like lots of ubuntu users, including myself use Chromium
<philipballew> its free and open unlike parts of G.C.
<philipballew> if you need a text based browser you should try E-links
<philipballew> its great to run in the terminal
<philipballew> Instant messaging
<philipballew> Ubuntu has a great default software in Empathy
<philipballew> it can handle all your im needs
<philipballew> there is also Pidgin and kopete
<philipballew> they can do the same thing
<philipballew> it is all about preference with Ubuntu. you have choice
<philipballew> Social Networking
<philipballew> Gwibber is the default client.
<philipballew> It can do Both Twitter and Facebook. The big names in social networking today
<philipballew> there is also a new app called Polly
<philipballew> it can be downloaded fromhttps://launchpad.net/polly
<philipballew> https://launchpad.net/polly
<philipballew> remove the s if your browser does not support https
<philipballew> Games
<philipballew> for Ubuntu there are many games in the software center
<philipballew> ill list some notable ones here
<philipballew> though we all may dislike them because games can be a personal thing
<philipballew> Open Arena Torcs Urban Terror Minecraft Battle of Wesnoth Nexuiz
<philipballew> all of these except minecraft can be downloaded through the software center
<philipballew> for other places to get games you can use ppa's
<philipballew> they can allow you to try new apps. bleeding edge versions and apps just not in the software center
<philipballew> there is such things as get deb and play deb
<philipballew> they will add more games to your system
<philipballew> also I will give two websites for Linux games
<philipballew> www.tuxgames.com www.linuxgames.com
<philipballew> if there are any apps i did not mention here you need an alternative for you can use http://linuxappfinder.com/
<philipballew> feel free to contact me as well anytime
<philipballew> Question Time!
<philipballew>  /msg classbot !y
<ClassBot> TheEvilPhoenix asked: I know Adobe Dreamweaver is built for windows.  Is there any equivalent WYSIWYG/code/splitscreen web development program for Ubuntu/Linux ?
<philipballew> good question TheEvilPhoenix
<philipballew> in the Ubuntu software center there is KompoZer
<philipballew> a what you see is what you get type
<philipballew> also iff all you need is html gedit can do that
<philipballew> there is also bluefish
<ClassBot> lunzie asked: ââcan you say anything about Google Docs equivalents like the proposed Unhosting of LibreOffice? http://vimeo.com/21387223
<philipballew> You can still access google docs from ubuntu if you want, However I hear l.b. plans to
<philipballew> I read it somewhere
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Accessibility Applications - Instructors: charlie-tca
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<charlie-tca> Okay, Hello everyone!
<charlie-tca> I'm Charlie Kravetz, known as charlie-tca on irc and the mailing lists. I am Xubuntu Quality Assurance Lead, a member of ubuntu-bugsquad, bug-control, and a bugsquad mentor.
<charlie-tca> I test the latest development images, and am using Oneiric Ocelot on my daily machine. This gives me considerable experience in testing, filing bugs, and using Ubuntu.
<charlie-tca> I am going to talk about Accessibility in Ubuntu.
<charlie-tca> Each release cycle, when the discussions are held about what should be in the next release, we do discuss accessibility also.
<charlie-tca> This is considered very important by all the developers, but is very difficult to insure it is working for all the users.
<charlie-tca> The leaders of the Ubuntu Accessibility Team are Penelope Stowe (pendulum) and Luke Yelavich (TheMuso).
<charlie-tca> I do triage accessibility bugs, and am very involved with Accessibility Team.
<charlie-tca> Accessibility focuses on the Ubuntu desktop, because Gnome has good accessibility features. Would we like to see that expanded? Of course we would! The expansion is coming along nicely. Kubuntu is working on integrating a screen-reader installation, Xubuntu will be adding several features with Xfce 4.10. Lubuntu is very interested in adding accessbility also.
<charlie-tca> The Accessibility Team has conducted a survey and created personas under the guidance of Penelope. This greatly aids the team in determining the direction it needs to head as well as what is needed.
<charlie-tca> This session isn't a how-to guide and won't go into a huge amount of detail into any one program.
<charlie-tca> I will attempt to answer your questions, when I can. I will also give you some resources for further help and information.
<charlie-tca> Please use the following format for all questions -- QUESTION: How do I start mousekeys? All questions should be asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll use classbot to post them into #ubuntu-classroom.
<charlie-tca> So, to answer this question, you would open the dash, by clicking the Ubuntu logo in the launchers, and type "universal access"
<charlie-tca> That has replaced the 'Accessibility' menus
<charlie-tca> Since one of the biggest issues we have had with accessibility is how to start a screen-reader installation, what with guessing when to hit keys, knowing which keys to hit, etc, we are doing something positive about it.
<charlie-tca> Ubuntu 11.10 will have a feature we are very pleased about. This is the ability for the visually impaired to start an installation without having to hit a bunch of keypresses and try to guess when to start hitting keys. We will instead boot the desktop cd, wait until it stops and the drum beat sounds, which will be at the "Try Ubuntu" and "Install Ubuntu" screen. Now just hit Ctrl+s to
<charlie-tca> start the screen-reader installation with Orca.
<charlie-tca> This should make installing *so much* simpler for those with visual impairments!
<charlie-tca> Before I talk about specific programs, I want to talk about the Assistive Technologies menu, which can be found in Universal Access.
<charlie-tca> This menu is where you can select your preferred accessibility programs and enable assistive technologies.
<charlie-tca> You can use this menu to specify things such as how long to accept as a keypress, how to prevent accidental double clicking, and how quickly to respond to key presses.
<charlie-tca> It's also useful for turning off and on sticky keys or specifying keystrokes to stand in for things you'd normally do with a mouse.
<charlie-tca> This is also the menu you use to specify which programs you want for an alternate keyboard or as a screen reader.
<charlie-tca> Okay, before I start talking about programs, are there any questions on the Universal Access menu?
<charlie-tca> I should say at this point, if you need accessibility programs and use either Ubuntu 11.04 or decide to go with Oneiric Ocelot, soon to be released as Ubuntu 11.10, you will find Unity3d sessions difficult to use.
<charlie-tca> We automatically use the fallback sessions when you install using the screen-reader. In Ubuntu 11.04, this is called "classic session" and in Oneiric it is called Unity2d.
<charlie-tca> The first set of programs I'm talking about are the text-to-speech programs.
<charlie-tca> The most popular of these is the Orca, although it isn't strictly a screen reader, as it has other capabilities
<charlie-tca> Orca includes a screen reader, magnification capabilities, and braille capabilities, so it is more than text-to-speech, however most people when you say Orca think of it as a screen reader.
<charlie-tca> Orca was developed by the Accessibility department at Sun Microsystems, however, with the aquisition of Sun by Oracle, it has moved to community-development only.
<charlie-tca> Orca can work with programs that include the at-spi toolkit including the GNOME desktop, Firefox, LibreOffice, and many others.
<charlie-tca> It can also be used with Xfce based applications.
<charlie-tca> More information about Orca can be found at http://live.gnome.org/Orca
<charlie-tca> And, yes, it is named after the animal in the tradition of screen readers being named after aquatic animals. (The most well known is JAWS for Windows)
<charlie-tca> Okay, any questions about Orca?
<ClassBot> KB3UI asked: Does Orca work with different voices?
<charlie-tca> Excellent question, KB3UI
<charlie-tca> Yes, Orca does work with different voices, as well a few languages.
<charlie-tca> It also has settings to change the speed of the voice, since some of us are able to listen much faster than the average person.
<charlie-tca> Another text-to-speech program is eSpeak. eSpeak is command line based. It supports quite a few different languages.
<charlie-tca> There are several different versions of eSpeak including one specific to emacs.
<charlie-tca> More information can be found at http://espeak.sourceforge.net/
<charlie-tca> These are the two main text-to-speech/screen reader options in the Software Center.
<charlie-tca> With QT being added to Unity, we now have the ability to use these applications in Kubuntu, also.
<charlie-tca> Are there any questions about espeak or other questions about text-to-speech in Ubuntu?
<ClassBot> KB3UI asked: Advantages of Orca vs. eSpeak and vice versa?
<charlie-tca> I would say the greatest advantage is in deciding which one works for what you need. Orca is not usable without the Desktop
<charlie-tca> eSpeak can be used in any terminal, as long as you have audio capability.
<charlie-tca> Many users will decide one has voices they can understand better than the other, but that is only found by trying both.
<charlie-tca> At the present time, there are no assistive technologies for people with learning/developmental difficulties specifically. Orca and some of the other programs are used by people with learning/developmental disabilities.
<charlie-tca> One thing that happens in the open source world is that other than specific hardware needs (such as integration with braile keyboards or USB switches), things are developed towards what the software needs to do, not why the person needs that software
<charlie-tca> okay, moving on from text-to-speech, I'm going to quickly cover magnification software
<charlie-tca> The magnification software commonly found in Ubuntu are gnome-mag, the magnification part of Orca and the magnification option of compiz. You will need to install ccsm to use the compiz magnifier, but it is very useful.
<charlie-tca> These applications allow you to move the magnification screen around your desktop so as to give the total view.
<charlie-tca> For the normal sighted person, they can be cumbersome to use, but for the visually impaired, they allow us to see the entire screen.
<charlie-tca> I realize that much of this is for the visually impaired. We have not forgotten the hearing impaired, however. A quick look into Universal Access options in Ubuntu allows the hearing impaired to switch on blinking windows to assist them when the sound alerts play.
<charlie-tca> There is still the issue of them not hearing if sounds are played, which can disturb others.
<ClassBot> lunzie asked: ââcharlie-tca: is there a framework or standard being worked out for tts access for pdf documents? esp okular and evince ...
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, open source has a way to go yet on some things. This is one of those areas.
<charlie-tca> I do not know of work being done for this at this time.
<charlie-tca> Next I want to talk about alternate keyboards.
<charlie-tca> Most of the time, alternate keyboards mean switching layouts and languages.
<charlie-tca> These are programs which can be used to replace or augment a traditional keyboard. They usually directly interface with the mouse however the mouse may be controlled.
<charlie-tca> The default alternate keyboard for Ubuntu is onBoard. It is basically an on-screen keyboard.
<charlie-tca> It includes everything including the function keys from a regular keyboard, and, now has colors that match ambiance theme in Unity
<charlie-tca> Using your mouse, You click on the key or a sequence of keys and it inputs directly into whatever program you're working on
<charlie-tca> Onboard is usable by stick users, as well as mouse/trackball only users.
<charlie-tca> Not only useful as assistive technology, it's rather useful for people using Ubuntu on a tablet.
<charlie-tca> The other well known option for alternate keyboard capabilities is Dasher
<charlie-tca> Dasher, rather than having a keyboard set-up, is mouse controlled by hovering the mouse over the letters on the screen
<charlie-tca> It also has predicitve text capabilities, which can be quite useful
<charlie-tca> It learns as you use it, and will actually type in the range of 39 words per minute
<charlie-tca> Dasher run from the launcher starts in normal mode, and it prints the characters in its own text editor and you can copy and paste into other programs
<charlie-tca> From the command line you can run " dasher -a direct " which allows direct input into other programs
<charlie-tca> There are also Windows and MacOS X versions of Dasher.
<charlie-tca> For more information (including video and a way to try without downloading) you can go to http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/
<charlie-tca> Any questions about Alternate keyboards?
<charlie-tca> There are two programs in Ubuntu that help with alternate mouse controls
<charlie-tca> MouseTrap allows headtracking using a webcam to control your mouse
<charlie-tca> MouseTweaks works with the Assistive Technologies menu to give the ability to allow the mouse to "click" even if the mouse user can't actually make the motion that allows a mouse to click normally
<charlie-tca> And now the topic that everyone asks about: Voice Recognition software
<charlie-tca> The short answer is that there are hacks and there are programs that sort of work, but there aren't great results for voice recognition in Ubuntu
<charlie-tca> There is no voice recognition software in the Software Center.
<charlie-tca> An application that works somewhat is Julius. Julius was originally developed in Japanese and is being ported to English.
<charlie-tca> Unfortunately, as it's not finished software, the documentation is lacking
<charlie-tca> The other application which has worked for some Ubuntu users is to run Dragon Natural Speaking under Wine
<charlie-tca> There are several groups actively working to bring voice recognition to Linux, and advances are being made.
<charlie-tca> Any voice recognition questions?
<charlie-tca> Okay, those are the major groups of accessibility programs and what's available in Ubuntu
<charlie-tca> now I want to talk quickly about Ubuntu derivatives which focus on accessibility (or have some relevence)
<charlie-tca> probably the biggest of these for the visually impaired at the moment is Vinux
<charlie-tca> Originally started to be optimised for blind and visually impaired users, at this time, possible accessiblity additions or changes are tested in Vinux first
<charlie-tca> for more information: http://vinux.org.uk/
<charlie-tca> Finally, we have Qimo4kids, which mhall119 developed partially as a way to create something that would be easy for kids with developmental disabilities to use.
<charlie-tca> and, to be honest, this is a great set of applications for any kids to learn skills
<charlie-tca> For more information about Qimo: http://www.qimo4kids.com/
<charlie-tca> Where to get help or information:
<charlie-tca> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Accessibility
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<charlie-tca> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
<charlie-tca> The Accessibility section of Ubuntu Forums
<charlie-tca> #ubuntu-accessibility on IRC
<charlie-tca> The mailing list at ubuntu-accessiblity@lists.ubuntu.com
<charlie-tca> also, the ubuntu accessibility team is http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/Team
<charlie-tca> The Gnome A11y team is also often useful: gnome-accessibility-list@gnome.org & http://projects.gnome.org/accessibility/
<charlie-tca> I would hope this gave you a general view of what is available in Ubuntu for Accessibility.
<charlie-tca> We do consider a11y very important, and are striving to improve access for everyone, each release.
<charlie-tca> lunzie passed along the following tip:
<charlie-tca> I know the shift has been to libreoffice, but i see there's a kids' openoffice project too, http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> KB3UI asked: Do many people with disabilities have problems working with passwords and other security issues involving websites?
<charlie-tca> This is usually not a problem, since firefox is the default browser, and is very accessible.
<charlie-tca> Thank you all for participating in User Days.
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Switching to Ubuntu from another OS - Instructors: nhaines
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/24/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<nhaines> Hello, everyone!  My name is Nathan and I'll be giving some useful tips about switching to Ubuntu from other operating systems.
<nhaines> Feel free to ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat at any time.
<nhaines> Switching to a new operating system is fun and exciting!
<nhaines> However, switching and keeping all of your existing data can be a daunting task.
<nhaines> So I'm going to talk about things you'll want to consider before making the switch full-time.
<nhaines> One of the most important things, of course, is deciding just when to make the switch.
<nhaines> There are a few things you'll want to research before you take the plunge.
<nhaines> First of all, you'll want to make sure that your hardware is fully compatible with Ubuntu.
<nhaines> At least, any hardware that you still want to use after you switch.  ;)
<nhaines> If you use a wireless network card, you'll need to test it to make sure it will still work.
<nhaines> Many cards will work with no special considerations.  Others will need firmware to work properly.
<nhaines> Bluetooth is another thing that can be really hit or miss.  The Bluetooth module in my laptop worked perfectly until 11.04, and doesn't work anymore.
<nhaines> The USB bluetooth adapter I have for my desktop computer works great.  So you'll want to try that out before you decide to install.
<nhaines> Another popular piece of equipment is webcams.  These are hit or miss, so you'll want to test this as well if you have one.
<nhaines> Fortunately, your Ubuntu Desktop CD will help you out here.  When you boot from it, you can choose "Try Ubuntu" and you'll be able to test a standard system with your hardware.
<nhaines> The only thing you won't be able to test comprehnsively is your video card.  The open source drivers for AMD (ATI) and nVidia cards are getting more capable every day!
<nhaines> But sometimes you still need the proprietary drivers.  You can't test this without installing, so you may need to use Wubi to install without taking out your Windows installation.
<nhaines> Another thing you'll want to think about is your upgrade tolerance!
<nhaines> As you know, there's a new version of Ubuntu every 6 months.  Ubuntu 11.10 comes out in 3 weeks and it's looking great!
<nhaines> But not everyone wants to upgrade their computer every 6 months.  That can be stressful.
<nhaines> Every two years, Ubuntu has a "Long Term Support" release.  With normal releases, you have 18 months to enjoy the release before there are no more security updates.
<nhaines> Each release can only be updated to the very next release.
<nhaines> Long Term Support releases are different.  You can stick with one for three years before security updates stop, and after two years you skip the four releases in between and upgrade directly to the next LTS release.
<nhaines> So if you're running Ubuntu 10.04 LTS right now, in April you'll be able to upgrade to Ubuntu 12.04 LTS.  But you'll have an extra year to be nice and safe before you have to maake the e plunge.
<ClassBot> gua asked: is there any progress towards something that would allow one to test proprietary video drivers in the "Try Ubuntu" live environment?
<nhaines> Thank you, gua, that's an excellent question.  Video drivers are part of the Linux kernel, the OS itself.  So it's not very easy to change the video driver and there wouldn't be a way to fall back if it didn't work.
<nhaines> I don't know that there is any work on this right now, so I recommend using Wubi to test proprietary video drivers if you have Windows installed.
<ClassBot> lunzie asked: ââfor casual users, is it advisable to upgrade from release to release? or stick with one that works reliably? and how do you see the proposed rolling releases impacting on willingness to upgrade?
<nhaines> I think this is really a personal choice.  For myself, I love the newest, freshest software.  So I upgrade very 6 months.  And I use my laptop to try out the latest development release while I let my Desktop stick with the stable release.
<nhaines> I think it's always a good idea to wait one or two weeks before upgrading, just in case there are any bugs that need hammered out still.  Reading the release notes for each release is also very important.
<nhaines> Now's a good time to clarify that in this session I'm talking about using the Ubuntu desktop release, and not about servers.
<nhaines> Okay, so once you decide whether you want the latest and greatest version of Ubuntu or you want to stick with the LTS release, you can get ready to install.
<nhaines> Ubuntu Desktop CDs are pretty special.  They actually boot Ubuntu to let you install it.  So you have access to a real Ubuntu environment before you install.
<nhaines> You can use this to run a "live" session right off the CD.  If you build a new computer, you can test it with the CD without installing.  This is how I test computers I build for friends, even if it won't end up with Ubuntu.
<nhaines> Plus, Ubuntu installs take about 20 minutes, so there's nothing like getting the install started and then browsing the Web or playing Mines or Solitaire or listening to music while you're waiting for the install.
<nhaines> But there's one thing that you should always do before you do a major OS install or upgrade.
<nhaines> You want to make sure you have an up-to-date, successful backup of all of your files.
<nhaines> Now, I know everyone here backs up their files all the time.  :)
<nhaines> But this is really important.
<nhaines> I work for Western Digital, a major hard drive manufacturer.  I used to do level 2 tech support for them.
<nhaines> While nothing in this session reflects the opinions or policy of my employer, I want to talk about hard drives for a moment and so I want you to know where I stand.  :)
<nhaines> Hard drives are mechanical devices, and every single one fails eventually.  Every single one.
<nhaines> So it's important to back up your important files on at least one other physical disk.  Preferably you have two backups, but even one is betetr then none at all.
<nhaines> I've taken phone calls from customers who had a hard drive fail, and I've taken calls from customers who accidentally formatted the wrong disk, and it's tragic because there's not a lot that can be done in many cases.
<nhaines> So if you *don't* have a backup, then an OS switch is a good (and necessary!) time to do so.
<nhaines> You can't really back up Windows programs.  They install data in too many places, like the Windows registry.
<nhaines> Mac programs can be easier, but not all can be backed up simply by dragging the application folders over.
<nhaines> So what you'll really want to focus on are your important files.
<nhaines> On Windows, these are mostly stored in your user folders.
<nhaines> On Windows XP, your My Documents folder also contains your music, pictures, and videos.
<nhaines> On Windows Vista, 7, and 8, these are in separate folders.
<nhaines> So what you'll want to do is get an external harddrive.  An internal drive will work as well if you know how to install one, but you might like to use your internal drive while upgrading.
<nhaines> With a USB or network hard drive, you'll be ready to copy your files to the hard drive.
<nhaines> Likewise, on a Mac you will have a user profile that you can copy data to.
<nhaines> If you are using Windows Backup or Time Machine, you won't be able to access your backed up files in Ubuntu.
<nhaines> If you happen to be using WD's SmartWare backup software, you actually will be able to copy your files over.  But this is different for each backup program.  So I recommend just copying your files manually to be safe.
<nhaines> A hard drive is just a storage device, so even if your external hard drive comes with backup software, it isn't necessary to use or even install.
<nhaines> Make sure you copy all your documents.  For any important programs like your email or financial software, please check that program's help file for a backup or export feature.  That way you know for sure that your data are safe.
<nhaines> Copy everything to an external hard drive.  Then, when you're installing, you'll unplug the drive and set it aside.  Now no matter what happens during the install, your files are safe.
<nhaines> Even though I strongly recommend manual backups, using Windows Backup or Time Machine can make reinstalling your old operating system much easier if you ever need to go back.
<nhaines> In Ubuntu, your user folder is called a "home directory".
<nhaines> So you'll be able to copy your files directly to that folder pretty easily.
<nhaines> Once you have Ubuntu installed, then you're faced with a new way of thinking about your computer.
<nhaines> Ubuntu has a wonderful interface called Unity.  It looks a bit different, but you'll quickly become used to it.  Ubuntu 11.10 has a lot of great enhancements to this interface as well.
<nhaines> On the left hand of your screen is the Unity launcher.  This shows any programs you have running and lets you launch others.  You can right-click any program icon and pin it to the launcher so you have easy access to it.  This works identically to the Windows Vista task bar and the Mac OS X dock.
<nhaines> At the top left of the screen, you'll have a dash launcher button.  It will either be in the top left corner or the first icon on the launcher.
<nhaines> The easiest way to get to this is by pressing the Super key on your keyboard.  The Super key usually has a Windows logo on it.
<nhaines> When the Dash opens, you can quickly access the Web, your photos, music, or email.    You can also just start typing the name of the program you want to launch and it will show up in the search results.
<nhaines> Once it appears, just press Enter or click on it and it will start.
<nhaines> You probably won't have too many surprises.  The default web browser is Firefox, and Ubuntu comes with LibreOffice, Gwibber for Facebook and Twitter, Empathy for practicaly any IM network you like, and if you prefer Chrome Web Browser or Pidgin IM client, those are easy to install.
<nhaines> The best thing about Ubuntu is that software is very easy to find.
<nhaines> Included is the Ubuntu Software Center.  This is a catalog with thousands of software applications that rae ready for you to install automatically.
<nhaines> Any time you install using Ubuntu Software Center, you'll receive updates for that program along with your OS updates as well.
<nhaines> Canonical provides some proprietary software for your convenience, for example, Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader, and Skype.
<nhaines> Although Ubuntu will open PDFs out of the box... you don't need Adobe Reader unless you have a tricky PDF that requires it.  But it's there just in case.  :)
<nhaines> There are some programs for sale through Software Center as well.  When you buy these, you'll be able to install them on any computer you install Ubuntu on, and reinstall them in the future if you have to remove them for space or reinstall your OS.
<nhaines> I'll just say that World of Goo is a great game to try out. :)
<nhaines> Another nice feature is Ubuntu One.  You can register for a free account and then you get 5 GB of online storage.
<nhaines> Any file or folder you put in your Ubuntu One folder is synced with your Ubuntu One account online.  Then, you can log into your account at http://one.ubuntu.com/ and access these files.
<nhaines> You can also publish a file, which gives you a URL you can share with others so they can download the file.  It's perfect for sharing documents or pictures you've taken.
<nhaines> When you log into Ubuntu One on other Ubuntu computers, they get a copy of anything in your Ubuntu One account.  So when you add files or make changes on one computer, you'll have those files and changes on your other computers as well.
<nhaines> Plus, if you have an Android phone, you can access your Ubuntu One files and automatically upload photos you take to your Ubuntu One account so they magically appear on your computers as well.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<nhaines> This is a super useful service to sync and share your files, and you can purchase extra storage or a mobile music service that lets you stream music to your Android phone or iPhone.
<nhaines> And the Ubuntu One devs are working on a Windows client as well, so imagine you could keep certain files in sync across all your Windows and Ubuntu computers plus your phone!
<nhaines> So that's definitely worth checking out with your free account.
<nhaines> I hope during this session I've enlightened you about what to think about when planning an OS change.
<nhaines> As a bonus, all of this advice works for switching from any OS to any other OS, and is useful for switching to a new computer as well.  ;)
<nhaines> If there are no other questions, then I think this session is finished.
<nhaines> As usual, I'm always available for clarification or further questions at nhaines at ubuntu dot com.
<nhaines> I hope you've all enjoyed this session and learned something new.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<nhaines> We have three great sessions coming up!  Next is an introduction to Firefox, and then you can learn about Launchpad, and last you can learn about Guake and how it can make you more productive.
<nhaines> So remember to keep good backups (once you're in Ubuntu you can use Deja Dup, installed by default in Ubuntu 11.10), and have fun exploring your new Ubuntu system, the Software Center, and all the wonderful possibilities that your computer can give.  :)
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Introduction to Firefox - Instructors: JoseeAntonioR - Slides: http://is.gd/WfypnK
<ClassBot> Slides for Introduction to Firefox: http://people.ubuntu.com/~joseeantonior/Slides/Firefox.pdf
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/25/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<JoseeAntonioR> Hello everyone! My name is JosÃ© Antonio Rey, known as JoseeAntonioR in IRC.
<JoseeAntonioR> Today I'll be talking about Firefox, a web browser.
<JoseeAntonioR> You can find some slides in the link that is in the topic.
<JoseeAntonioR> In the second slide you can find all the topics which are going to be covered today.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 3]
<JoseeAntonioR> Firefox is a web broswer that comes attached with Ubuntu.
<JoseeAntonioR> You can find it in the Unity Launcher, as well as, in the Desktop.
<JoseeAntonioR> It is developed and distributed by Mozilla.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 4]
<JoseeAntonioR> The main use of Firefox is, as you know, browsing the web.
<JoseeAntonioR> As a consequence, you can bookmark your favorite webpages, download music, videos, documents, and files in general.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 5]
<JoseeAntonioR> How To: Download files.
<JoseeAntonioR> Once you want to download a new file, you can click on the link.
<JoseeAntonioR> A new window will pop-up. There, you can choose between opening it with a certain program, or saving it to a previously chosen destination.
<JoseeAntonioR> When you choose, that window will close, and a new window will be opened. It is named Downloads.
<JoseeAntonioR> There, you can see your downloads, as well as the current download and its progression.
<JoseeAntonioR> You can close the window at any time.
<JoseeAntonioR> You also can press Ctrl+Shift+Y to open it again.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 6]
<JoseeAntonioR> How to see your History.
<JoseeAntonioR> You can check all the pages that you have visited just by pressing Ctrl+H.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 7]
<JoseeAntonioR> How To: Tabbing.
<JoseeAntonioR> In this Firefox version, you are able to navigate in tabs. It is like having several windows in just one.
<JoseeAntonioR> Tabs will appear above, in the upper part, below the address bar.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 8]
<JoseeAntonioR> How To: App Tabs.
<JoseeAntonioR> App tabs is a functionality that allows the user to transform a tab in just the image of it.
<JoseeAntonioR> These tabs are special, they will remain opened on the first places.
<JoseeAntonioR> Even if you quit Firefox, they will be opened again.
<JoseeAntonioR> To notify you of any change in the page they turn blue.
<JoseeAntonioR> One of their advantages is that you won't be able to close them accidentally, as you can only do that by right-clicking the tab and selecting 'Close Tab'.
<JoseeAntonioR> To pin an App Tab, right click on the desired tab and click 'Pin as App Tab.'
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 9]
<JoseeAntonioR> How to set homepage.
<JoseeAntonioR> First of all, you will need to choose your homepage.
<JoseeAntonioR> Once you have chosen it, click Edit>Preferences and type the address on the bar.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 10]
<JoseeAntonioR> How to block pop-ups.
<JoseeAntonioR> The pop-ups blocker is activated by default.
<JoseeAntonioR> If you want to modify the setting, just go to Edit>Preferences>Content.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 11]
<JoseeAntonioR> How To: Bookmarks.
<JoseeAntonioR> A Bookmark is one of your favorite pages, stored on your browser for an easy-access at any time.
<JoseeAntonioR> You can Bookmark a page by pressing Ctrl+D or by clicking the star displayed on the address bar.
<JoseeAntonioR> You can check your existing Bookrmarks by pressing Ctrl+B.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 12]
<JoseeAntonioR> How To: "Persona"
<JoseeAntonioR> "Persona" is an extension that you can use to change the appearance of your Firefox windows.
<JoseeAntonioR> You can discover more about "Persona" by clicking the entering to the following address:
<JoseeAntonioR> http://a.joj.me/35
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 13]
<JoseeAntonioR> Basic Shortcuts
<JoseeAntonioR> Pressing Ctrl+N opens a new browser window.
<JoseeAntonioR> Pressing Ctrl+T opens a new tab in the current window.
<JoseeAntonioR> Ctrl+Shift+T opens the last tab closed.
<JoseeAntonioR> For example, if you have recently closed the Google tab, you can re-open it by pressing Ctrl+Shift+T.
<JoseeAntonioR> Ctrl+O opens a file.
<JoseeAntonioR> It will pop-up a window where you can explore your system and choose the file.
<JoseeAntonioR> Ctrl+W closes the current tab.
<JoseeAntonioR> Ctrl+R refreshes the current window in past Firefox versions, and in the current version it refreshes the current tab.
<JoseeAntonioR> By pressing Ctrl+H you can see your History.
<JoseeAntonioR> By pressing Ctrl+Shift+Y you can open the Downloads windows, mentioned in slide 5.
<JoseeAntonioR> By pressing Ctrl+Shift+E you open Panorama. I will explain about it later.
<JoseeAntonioR> Pressing Ctrl+B shows you your Bookmarks.
<JoseeAntonioR> When you press Ctrl+D you will Bookmark the current page.
<JoseeAntonioR> And finally, by pressing Ctrl+Q you can quit Firefox.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 14]
<JoseeAntonioR> Panorama: Tabs Grouping.
<JoseeAntonioR> Panorama is a feature that is used to group tabs as you want.
<JoseeAntonioR> To access it, just press Ctrl+Shift+E.
<JoseeAntonioR> There, you can create new windows, and group the tabs exactly as you want to.
<JoseeAntonioR> Also, you can change the size to, for example, emphasize the content.
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 15]
<JoseeAntonioR> About extensions.
<JoseeAntonioR> Extensions are programs which are installed inside Firefox.
<JoseeAntonioR> There programs have different uses, as for example managing your music player, changing the appearance of your windows, running commands, etc.
<JoseeAntonioR> You can discover more about Extensions on http://addons.mozilla.com
<JoseeAntonioR> [slide 16]
<JoseeAntonioR> Recommended Extensions
<JoseeAntonioR> First of all, Persona.
<JoseeAntonioR> It has been mentioned in slide 12.
<JoseeAntonioR> With this extension you can change the design of the window.
<JoseeAntonioR> The link to it is http://a.joj.me/35
<JoseeAntonioR> Then, FoxRunner.
<JoseeAntonioR> FoxRunner allows the user to run Terminal commands directly from Firefox.
<JoseeAntonioR> For example, you are having some troubles with your system, and you need to run a lot of commands.
<JoseeAntonioR> The problem is that all of them are in your Firefox window, and you are tired from copy-pasting them.
<JoseeAntonioR> So, this is the solution.
<JoseeAntonioR> You just highlight the command the you want to run
<JoseeAntonioR> Then right click the selection
<JoseeAntonioR> Select FoxRunner>Run selected command
<JoseeAntonioR> And it's done!
<JoseeAntonioR> The link to the extension is http://d.joj.me/36
<JoseeAntonioR> Now, let's go with AdBlock Plus.
<JoseeAntonioR> With it you can block ads from webpages.
<JoseeAntonioR> If you are tired of seeing that messy ads that appear in every single page you visit, you should install this Extension.
<JoseeAntonioR> It has a blocklist from web addresses that host the ads.
<JoseeAntonioR> What it does it is just blocking the navigation to that webpages, so the ads doesn't show up.
<JoseeAntonioR> If there is still an ad showing up, you can right click on it and tell AdBlock Plus to block it.
<JoseeAntonioR> The link to this extension is http://e.joj.me/36
<JoseeAntonioR> Finally, GreaseMonkey.
<JoseeAntonioR> GreaseMonkey is used to run javascript on a webpage.
<JoseeAntonioR> You can use it to customize the web a webpage displays or behaves.
<JoseeAntonioR> You can find hundred of scripts for a wide variety of popular sites on http://userscripts.org
<JoseeAntonioR> You can also write your own scripts.
<JoseeAntonioR> The link to GreaseMonkey is http://f.joj.me/36
<JoseeAntonioR> So, I have finished.
<JoseeAntonioR> If you have any questions you can post them to #ubuntu-classroom-chat by writing QUESTION:<question>, where <question> is your actual question.
<JoseeAntonioR> I will be glad to answer some common support questions, if they are asked.
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<JoseeAntonioR> 10 minutes left. If you have any questions, please ask them now.
<ClassBot> benonsoftware asked: What language is Firefox written in?
<JoseeAntonioR> Most of the code is written in C++.
<JoseeAntonioR> The Frontend is XUL, Javascript and CSS.
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l-onei asked: ââWhat add-on do you recommend for mouse gestures?
<JoseeAntonioR> I used Mouse Gestures Redox, but it is not available for Firefox 6.0.2
<JoseeAntonioR> If you have got an old version you can check it. g.joj.me/36
<JoseeAntonioR> Also, I have found another Extension. You can check it in http://h.joj.me/36
<JoseeAntonioR> So, I think that's all.
<JoseeAntonioR> We have a very interesting Launchpad Basics session coming up.
<JoseeAntonioR> Thanks for attending.
#ubuntu-classroom 2011-09-25
<ClassBot> Slides for Launchpad Basics: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29576960/User%20Days/Launchpad%20Basics.pdf
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Launchpad Basics - Instructors: benonsoftware - Slides: http://is.gd/hnijKm
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/25/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<benonsoftware> Hello all,
<benonsoftware> Today I will be running a Launchpad Basics session
<benonsoftware> So lets start
<benonsoftware> [SLIDE 2]
<benonsoftware> "Launchpad (LP) is an online platform for developers,
<benonsoftware> translaters and everyone else involved in open source software"
<benonsoftware> â Neline (Snicksie on IRC)
<benonsoftware> Thats what in mine and Snicksie opion what Launchpad is
<benonsoftware> By the way for questions in #ubuntu-classroom do this: QUESTION: What is Launchpad?
<benonsoftware> What Launchpad can do for you?
<benonsoftware> [SLIDE 3]
<benonsoftware> Project Hosting:
<benonsoftware> Launchpad can host any open source project for you for free
<benonsoftware> The most popular when has to be Ubuntu
<benonsoftware> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu
<benonsoftware> Launchpad is also known as LP
<benonsoftware> Now Launchpad can also be used as Bug Tracking
<benonsoftware> [SLIDE 4]
<benonsoftware> Bug tracking can be found at https://bugs.lauchpad.net/
<benonsoftware> Any LP project that has been set up to enale Bug Tracking means that you can post any type of bugs you want to
<benonsoftware> Any questions so far?
<benonsoftware> [SLIDE 5
<benonsoftware> [SLIDE 5]
<benonsoftware> Answers:
<benonsoftware> LP Answers can help you if you have a problem that isn't a bug
<benonsoftware> The Launchpad community and project maintainers/drivers help answer your questions
<benonsoftware> The URL for the Q&A system is at https://answers.launchpad.net/
<benonsoftware> [SLIDE 6]
<benonsoftware> Translations:
<benonsoftware> Now I'm so sorry but in that slide I have used the wrong URL the correct one is https://translations.launchpad.net/
<benonsoftware> Now using LP you can help translate your favourite piece of software
<benonsoftware> At the moment we are translating the Ubuntu Oneiric (11.10) serise
<benonsoftware> Now just to let you know the project maintainer on LP has to setup translations or they won't work.
<benonsoftware> [SLIDE 7]
<benonsoftware> Now Launchpad can be used tp store your code though PPA's or Bazaar branches
<benonsoftware> PPA's stand for Personal Package Archive
<benonsoftware> Each PPA can hold 2GB and you can request more though a LP question
<benonsoftware> Now you can also browse the code though LP via Loggerhead which is a Bazaar extension.
<benonsoftware> For example you can view the code at http://help.ubuntu.com/
<benonsoftware> The code would be at http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/oneiric/files
<benonsoftware> Any questions about that?
<benonsoftware> [SLIDE 8]
<benonsoftware> Teams:
<benonsoftware> Teams can be used to mange quite a few things
<benonsoftware> One is to maintain a project, as well as having just one person maintaing it you can have a team to manage it
<ClassBot> TheEvilPhoenix asked: with PPAs, how would one be able to create a private PPA?  As in that its not publicly viewable.  Is this even possible?
<benonsoftware> TheEvilPhoenix: Well at the moment PPA's are always publis
<benonsoftware> public*
<benonsoftware> Teams can also have a mailing list
<benonsoftware> The list address will be in the form of:
<benonsoftware> team-name@lists.launchpad.net
<benonsoftware> Now does anyone have any questions about what I have covered so far?
<benonsoftware> With LP anyone can create a account
<benonsoftware> and with it you can do a number of things with it like join teams
<benonsoftware> and use it with OpenID
<benonsoftware> Who here wasn't used OpenID before or they don't know what it is?
<ClassBot> TheEvilPhoenix asked: Will that OpenID authentication work on any site that supports OpenID authentication?
<benonsoftware> TheEvilPhoenix: Nice question, yes, just use http://launchpad.net/~youlpid in the OPenID URL
<benonsoftware> So for me it would be https://launchpad.net/~benny
<benonsoftware> and with your LP account you can sign into http://wiki.ubuntu.com
<benonsoftware> http://help.ubuntu.com
<benonsoftware> http://harvest.ubuntu.com
<benonsoftware> http://loco.ubuntu.com
<benonsoftware> Just to name a few
<ClassBot> JoseeAntonioR asked: Do I need to be logged in to use all the LP services?
<benonsoftware> JoseeAntonioR: Well pretty much you need to be logged in to use the services
<benonsoftware> Now in LP you can earn Karma
<benonsoftware> But be warned Karma expires over time
<benonsoftware> For example the Karma you got 6 months ago is worth as half as when you first got it
<benonsoftware> and after 12 months your Karma *expires*
<ClassBot> TheEvilPhoenix asked: what is used to calculate karma, and what are the various weights for various activities?  (yes, i know its weighted, because one new blueprint has a greater weight than a new bug fix being released by the same person)
<benonsoftware> Well blueprints are worth the most karma
<benonsoftware> and I'm sure that for every string you translate you get 1 piece of karma
<benonsoftware> Are there any more questions?
<benonsoftware> and if you would like to test out LP you can do that at https://staging.launchpad.net/ and not break anything
<ClassBot> jsjgruber-l-onei asked: ââIs bug heat always calculated in the same way? I've seen bugs reported by just one person get five flames.
<benonsoftware> jsjgruber-l-onei: Well bug heat is used to helps you to appraise a bug by giving you a calculated measure â called bug heat â of its likely significance.
<benonsoftware> For example a private question adds 250
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<benonsoftware> jsjgruber-l-onei: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/696424/ Tells you how bug heat is calculated
<ClassBot> TheEvilPhoenix asked: What is bug heat?
<benonsoftware> Well bug heat helps you to appraise a bug by giving you a calculated measure â called bug heat â of its likely significance.
<benonsoftware> Anymore questions in the last 10 minutes?
<benonsoftware> QUESTION TIME:
<benonsoftware> I think I'm finished if there are no more questions
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<benonsoftware> Well thank you all for coming this morning/afternoon/evening
<benonsoftware> There is a very good Increasing your productivity usingÂ Guake by sagaci
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat || Event: Ubuntu User Days - Current Session: Increasing your productivity using Guake - Instructors: sagaci
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/25/%23ubuntu-classroom.html following the conclusion of the session.
<sagaci> Hi, I'd like to thank you all for coming --
<sagaci> I'm Joel Pickett (aka. sagaci) and I'd like to share some of my experiences with the program, Guake
<sagaci> Guake is a drop-down terminal for the GNOME environment, however you can also install it on LXDE/lubuntu or XFCE/xubuntu without anything conflicting
<sagaci> TheEvilPhoenix> sagaci:  i assume one of the first questions you'll answer is "What is Guake"?
<sagaci> Guake is a drop-down terminal... Guake was inspired by the old Quake games, where you could press a button and a terminal would slide down on the screen so you could type a few commands and then exit it again
<sagaci> I'd just like to note, this class won't be on using commands, it is rather getting set up for with Guake to make it a pleasure to use and configure
<sagaci> <TheEvilPhoenix> QUESTION: Is there similar software for the KDE environment?  Or can you use Guake without conflicts on KDE
<sagaci> yes, there are guake alternatives... for KDE there is yakuake
<sagaci> a similar, yet arguably more featured guake-style terminal... there's also "tilda" and "yeahconsole" with different configurations and displays
<ClassBot> TheEvilPhoenix asked: Is there similar software for the KDE environment?  Or can you use Guake without conflicts on KDE?
<sagaci> see above :)
<sagaci> I've uploaded complementary slides to spreadubuntu - http://http://spreadubuntu.org/en/material/presentation/increasing-your-productivity-using-guake
<sagaci> I've uploaded complementary slides to spreadubuntu - http://spreadubuntu.org/en/material/presentation/increasing-your-productivity-using-guake
<sagaci> but anyhow, you can get guake by searching for "guake" in the software centre
<sagaci> or via the command line - with $ sudo apt-get install guake
<sagaci> it's a fairly small download, as long as you're installing on l/x/ubuntu
<sagaci> once Guake is installed, you're either want to launch it from the Dash (11.04 and later) or by going to Applications > Accessories > Guake Terminal on 10.10 or earlier
<sagaci> if you can't find guake or you run into errors with installing, make sure you've got the universe repository enabled, though it should be enabled by default in recent versions of ubuntu
<sagaci> so when you install guake and run it for the first time, you should get a bubble notification in the top right saying you're running it for the first time, press F-12 to display Guake
<sagaci> you may need to press your function key and F-12 on some keyboards/laptops
<sagaci> You'll be presented with your new Guake :), but now isn't the time to type commands, it's a good time to configure your new terminal
<sagaci> you can right click the main area of the terminal to select Properties
<sagaci> rather, Preferences :)
<sagaci> now all of these options are obviously to your discretion, however I personally like to remove tray icon, disable popups on startup, disable prompt on quit, not stay on top, tick hide on lose focus and not show the tab bar
<sagaci> the main window height can be configured by either dragging the bottom of the guake terminal to your liking or it can be set by using the slider at the bottom of the General preferences page
<sagaci> The appearance tab is where you can configure colour, fonts and transparency -- who doesn
<sagaci> 't like pretty colours for their terminal ? :)
<sagaci> the Keyboard Shortcuts is where the awesomeness of guake enters...
<sagaci> the Toggle Guake visibility hotkey will be that key you hit to show/hide guake
<sagaci> by default it is F-12 but on some keyboards, it's on the far end of the keyboard, and even two key-presses on some laptops
<sagaci> personally, I use the Menu key, which is the key between the right Alt and Ctrl key (yours may differ)
<sagaci> obviously you wouldn't want to assign this hotkey to something like Enter or Spacebar since you'll find it will conflict with the other things you use your computer for
<sagaci> while New tab is assigned Shift+Ctrl+T, it is also a tip to assignet Go to next tab as Ctrl+E, since you can open a new tab, then switch quickly to your other screens
<sagaci> mind you, what works for me may not be what you prefer, keeping in mind that any key-binds you make, shouldn't interfere with the other programs you use
<sagaci> I guess just as a general comment, guake is handy for the newbie terminal user, right up to the seasoned CLI veteran, it's handy to have on startup, so you don't need to hunt for it via the dash/menus
<sagaci> it's also really cool that when you "exit" the terminal, via Ctrl-D or typing "exit", the terminal is still there as a fresh, if you were to hit your "Guake visibility" key, which makes is super easy to exit and start afresh
<sagaci> ok, so the question is, "how do I really exit guake", well you can right click the terminal window and click Quit, this will really quit guake, or you can search through your System Monitor for the process python (since it's a python application) and select end process on the one that is running guake.py
<sagaci> however, the first case is the recommended one :)
<sagaci> Guake allows you to multi-task between, let's say, a web-browser and a programming project or an email and a "sudo apt-get upgrade"
<sagaci> although you could pin gnome-terminal or similar to the dash/panel, I've found that the keybinds in guake to be more effective
<ClassBot> There are 10 minutes remaining in the current session.
<sagaci> Well anyhow, I hope you've all had a great time and learned a few things from these sessions, I'll be looking forward to the next ubuntu user days and similar community events that allow users to share their experiences with a piece of software or a project
<sagaci> once again, complementary slides are available on spreadubuntu
<sagaci> http://spreadubuntu.org/en/material/presentation/increasing-your-productivity-using-guake
<sagaci> using the Source file (it's an .odp) on the right hand side, will hopefully jump-start your memory of guake :)
<ClassBot> There are 5 minutes remaining in the current session.
<ClassBot> Logs for this session will be available at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2011/09/25/%23ubuntu-classroom.html
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Welcome to the Ubuntu Classroom - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Classroom || Support in #ubuntu || Upcoming Schedule: http://is.gd/8rtIi || Questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ||
#ubuntu-classroom 2012-09-17
<RedBunny> could someone tell me the best software to get ubuntu running under windows without dual booting ,... im trying virtual box i think its called but can't seem to get it set up ,..
#ubuntu-classroom 2014-09-16
<ad__> can anyone help.. My mouse wheel scroll in ubuntu 14.04 when mouse is scrolled upwards the browser or ubuntu software center etc aplications goes to last visited page
<ad__> instead of scrolling upwards
<ad__> the mouse used to work fine in 12.04
<ad__> anyone??
#ubuntu-classroom 2015-09-14
<vijay_> what is shedule for class & chatroom
