#ubuntu-doc 2005-01-31
<kbrooks> Hi!
<sivang> hey kbrooks !
<sivang> nightly greetins :)
<kbrooks> what's up?
<sivang> cool, how may I help you my freind?
<kbrooks> are all questions welcome? :)
<sivang> _all_ of them, given they comply with the CoC
<sivang> and somewhat related to documentation &&|| ubuntu
<kbrooks> even general questions on ubuntu?
<sivang> yes
<sivang> however, be adviced that if a proper answer won't be available, you might be offered to write a howto/doc about it :)
<kbrooks> ok...lets see...i would like to do something for the team... does the team need any help?
<sivang> yes, very much, curretnly, there are few goals for hoary - 
<sivang> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamProjects
<sivang> all of this require some content contribution :)
<sivang> also, we are testing if our new pages for contribution instrcution are any good, so feel free to go through:
<sivang> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocumentationTeam
<sivang> on comment on ubuntu-doc@lists.ubuntu.com about how good it helped you start contributing,
<sivang> sort of a survey in a sense :)
<sivang> (you have to subscribe first in http://lists.ubuntu.com)
<sivang> kbrooks: are you ok there buddy?
<sivang> :)
<kbrooks> not really, TBH
<sivang> TBH = to be honest?
<sivang> well, basically, docs are in the xml docbook format, if you want to contribute but don't want to invest time into reading and learning about it,
<sivang> just go add your doc to the wiki,
<sivang> then send an email onto the list and there's someone who'd put it there, state your real name so you would get the proper credits.
<kbrooks> and yes TBH = to be honest
<kbrooks> i am trying to upgrade to hoary and a error appeared
<sivang> oh, I thought you were interested in doc doing...:)
<kbrooks> but i "fixed" it -- apt-get -f install
<kbrooks> i am.
<sivang> ah ok, lemme try and upgrade myself
<kbrooks> but i want to upgrade to hoary
<sivang> well, there's a warty-->hoary upgrade doc
<sivang> on the wiki
<kbrooks> sivang, i am upgrading to hoary
<kbrooks> debian is to sid as ubuntu is to hoary
<sivang> I knwo :)
<sivang> ok, then what's the problem?
<kbrooks> gimp was the problem
<kbrooks> now i'm fixing it...brb
<sivang> ok, when you're done, just toss your expereicne onto the wiki, and drop a note on the mailing lis t:)
<kbrooks> may i type it in here for you to look at?
<sivang> it would be better there, but you could also just send a text file to the list
<sivang> that would be best , because it could get lost on irc..
<sivang> it's pretty easy opening an account on the wiki
<kbrooks> OK. I'll type it here (quick) and put it on the wiki.....
<sivang> sure cool
<sivang> would also get you access to chagne stuff and fix things you see fit
<kbrooks> So...here goes:
<kbrooks> I wanted to upgrade to hoary, so I  did "sed -e 's/warty/hoary/g' < /etc/apt/sources.list > /etc/apt/sources.list.new", then I copied over sources.list to sources.list.old and sources.list.new to sources.list. (I nearly asked #ubuntu about the command to update your sources, but i quickly remembered it) Then I did apt-get update and apt-get dist-upgrade.
<kbrooks> Unfortunaely, for me, dpkg exited and the error message told me exactly what happened.
<kbrooks> I reported it in #ubuntu and a solution came up in the form of cding into /var/cache/apt/archives and doing ``dpkg -i --force-overwrite gimp****.deb''. I did so, but then another error message appeared.
<kbrooks> Luckily, help came in the form of reading the error message.
<kbrooks> i did as directed and successfully got it all fixed.
<kbrooks> brb.
<kbrooks> back.
<sivang> hi enrico !
<enrico> hi sivang !
<enrico> it's been a while our timezones didnt
<enrico> overlap
<sivang> yes, I tried going back to GMT
<sivang> :)
<sivang> but didn't work..
<sivang> enrico: what's up? a lot of traffic per day by froud on the mailing list, I can barely keep up :)
<sivang> any interesting news bedies the new html doc online?
<enrico> bedies?
<enrico> sivang: the discussion these days is on the release notes work that trickie is taking care of, and in publishing the HTMLs online
<sivang> what are bedies?
<enrico> You asked "any interesting news bedies the new html doc online?"
<enrico> so I was curious to ask you what are "bedies" :)
<sivang> besides :)
<sivang> hehe
<enrico> The other good news is that Chua is a hero (see the last IRC report)
<enrico> And that the DocteamWork wiki page links to lots of useful and nice practical informations
<jdub> hey dudes
<jdub> yo shaunm 
<jdub> enrico: ping
<jdub> so shaunm 
<jdub> enrico is probably only gone for a moment
* enrico is back
<shaunm> howdy jdub
<shaunm> and the rest of the team
<jdub> we were wondering what the status of brandable docs in gnome is
<enrico> wow!  Hello shaunm!
<jdub> and how we can help
<enrico> people have been talking about working with svn vendor drops to ubuntu-brand the gnome docs, but I remember someone talked about possible better solutions
<shaunm> so what all do you want to do?
<shaunm> end of the day, things like the user guide are just going to have to be customized by vendors
<shaunm> or replaced wholesale
<jdub> shaunm: first priority is not forking the documentation ;)
<shaunm> sure
<jdub> bringing relevant vendor branches to the docs seems far more sustainable
<enrico> I imagine change some bit here and there to account for visible changes made by the ubuntu devels (if any); if there are chapters that try to be distribution-independent, making them ubuntu-specific, things like that
<enrico> maybe adding a chapter about Ubuntu
<shaunm> but you get things like changes to the panel menu
<shaunm> and those things are so pervasive
<jdub> yeah
<shaunm> and it would require a lot of conditional rendering
<jdub> what do you think about entitising menu locations and so on
<jdub> or providing macro-like entities built from gnome-menus?
<shaunm> plus maintaining documentation of non-stock stuff in the community docs
<jdub> there are quite a few instances where that would work
<jdub> pulling info directly from .desktop files, gnome-menus, etc.
<shaunm> which could be a real pain if we had multiple distros doing it, each on their own release cycles and such
<jdub> shaunm: let's concentrate on gnome's release cycle, and external branches :)
<enrico> It could already be of help to know what branding facilities are already in place for us to use
<jdub> and centralised changes to the docs that will have positive ripple effects :)
<shaunm> the user guide is really the hardest case
<shaunm> although
<shaunm> just about every app doc says something like " To run Five or More, select Five or More from the Games submenu of the Main Menu"
<shaunm> and, you know, if the menu is customized, all those docs are wrong
<shaunm> that one's a bad example, because docs ought just to use <menuchoice>
<enrico> I sent a mail to Sean Wheller asking him to join us; I hope he's around
<jdub> shaunm: could we pull that information from gnome-menus? :)
<enrico> shaunm: ah, ok.  I was about to say: we already entitysed menus and we have those things autogenerated for other things
<shaunm> jdub: potentially, but then you're locking the documents into yelp
<shaunm> what happens when you just run gnome-doc-utils on the file to build html for the web?
<jdub> shaunm: could do it at build time; that complicates things though
<shaunm> kde uses a docbook customization, and it annoys me
<shaunm> it complicated things considerably, yes
<shaunm> sigh
<shaunm> how I wish docbook profiling weren't so messed up
<jdub> hrm, on phone for a bit, sorry :|
<enrico> shaunm: so, the best option so far is using vendor drops to change the bits that need changing?
<shaunm> at the moment, yes
<shaunm> I'm afraid we just don't have the infastructure in place for anything very sophisticated
<enrico> Is there something less sophisticated that can be done, besides tweaking entities?
<enrico> (I'm trying to ask meaningful questions hoping that someone more knowledgeable than me will join us soon)
<shaunm> well, so
<shaunm> can we see some specific problems?
<shaunm> the real problem with documentation is that everything is free-flowing prose
<shaunm> and so if you just do these little replacements here and there, you often end up with very awkward prose
<enrico> I see the problem.  Well, I heard of branding efforts being going on and I was wondering, but after this conversation I think we could just go on with vendor drops and then send you some patches sometimes if we improve something you could use
<shaunm> well
<shaunm> see, I don't really work on any of the distros' stuff
<shaunm> and so I don't see the problems as much
<shaunm> to get all this stuff right, we need to get representatives from the big gnome distros
<shaunm> and lock them all in a room with me
<enrico> jdub: can you take care of that? :)
<shaunm> and preferably some kde folks as well
<enrico> shaunm: so, noone has been branding the User's Manual so far?
<shaunm> because a lot of this should happen in a cross-desktop way
<shaunm> enrico: no, you guys are the first distro to give a damn
<enrico> Ah, ok, cool.  Then we can pioneer the effort and see what happens
<shaunm> I've been smacking RH for years now
<shaunm> and I still can't get them to put all their docs in scrollkeeper
<enrico> Luckily, we have dh_scrollkeeper that does a good part of the job :)
<shaunm> oh, what's that?
<shaunm> some day, I'll get around to putting together The One True Help System
<shaunm> and I'll beat everybody until they switch their systems over to it
<shaunm> and the world will rejoice
<enrico> A Debianization tool that automatically looks for a OMF file with a standard name and takes care to make it so that the .deb package installs it correctly
<enrico> You need at least Two True Help Systems, so that everyone can use something that someone else doesn't use.  The trick is making them compatible :)
<shaunm> :)
<shaunm> clever
<shaunm> maybe I'll make another one under a pseodonym
<shaunm> have flame wars with myself
<shaunm> finally get the integration work right between the two
<enrico> You can make a secret deal with a KDE person
<enrico> Ok, froud is evidently not around to ask some more specific questions; I'll post this conversation to the list in tomorrow's IRC report, then we can give a try to packaging the Gnome User's Manual as well
<shaunm> oh, froud's asked me *lots* of questions already
<shaunm> most of which I haven't had satisfactory answers to
<enrico> Ah, ok, you're already in touch with him already
<shaunm> he comes into #docs on gimpnet from time to time
<shaunm> so anyway
<shaunm> getting *really* good vendorified docs involves changing screenshots as well
* enrico is going out
<shaunm> wimp :P
<enrico> We tried to address the screenshots as well
<enrico> wiki.ubuntu.com/TakingScreenshots
<enrico> Froud did quite a good job on that
* enrico needs to go
<shaunm> oh very good
<enrico> my girlfriend is pulling me by my hair
<shaunm> go go go
<enrico> I have very long hair, which makes her work easier :)
<enrico> shaunm: thanks a lot!  I'll post things in tomorrow's IRC report.  See you!
<froud> African Greetings
<shaunm> and here's froud 
<froud> hey dude
<froud> just reading th elogs
<froud> now finsihed
<froud> MOst problems can be managed if the build is static
<froud> i.e. X/HTML
<shaunm> with sufficient build magic, yes
<froud> see Yelp will now support
<froud> yes, I would like to reduce the preprocessing
<froud> problems such as ghelp:foo
<shaunm> yeah, ghelp sucks
<froud> these are a problem
<froud> olinks?
<froud> xrefs for internal
<froud> olinks for ext
<froud> yelp does not support olinks
<froud> and as I said to you the formatting of xrefs is wacked
<shaunm> how would you prefer them formatted?
<froud> same font as current block
<shaunm> yelp doesn't change the font for xrefs
<froud> I get a different or larger font size
<froud> but then I am not on the last version
<froud> perhaps tis fixed
<shaunm> what version?
<froud> 2.6.1
<shaunm> that's odd
<shaunm> I've never known that to happen
<froud> well it may be fixed in new versions
<shaunm> yelp 2.6 doesn't do any font-mangling, iirc, so it might be a gtkhtml2 thing
<froud> sure the depend thing is a nightmare
<froud> speaking of dependancies
<froud> you heard the vendor drops idea
<froud> what do you think
<froud> essentially we would build user guide as a patchy on your vendor drop
<froud> Perhaps we would have to use XPointer extensively
<shaunm> I worry about having dozens of vendor drops
<froud> yes it is problematic
<froud> but essentially we would want to drop in the gnome and later when we have kde, that too
<froud> thing is we would need to drop the whole GNOME app and doc source. Is that right?
<froud> your docs are kept with each app under C/
<froud> so they are not in one place, like docs, is that right?
<froud> lots of SGML stuff too I see
<shaunm> none of the user docs are in sgml
<froud> just an sgml extension then?
<shaunm> but yes, generally each app contains its own documentation
<shaunm> where do you see sgml?
<froud> GIMP
<froud> phone call
<shaunm> ah, I'm not responsible for gimp
<shaunm> they don't even use the gnome help system
<plovs> morning guys
<shaunm> so does anything actually support olink?
<froud> I am back
<froud> shaunm, straight docbook transfroms using nwalsh xsl
<froud> The main concern at ubuntu is to produce a source that is portable across pointential future desktops
<froud> at present we have two upstreams, debian and gnome
<froud> in future we may have kde and perhaps other desktops
<froud> The most compatible target format is X/HTML
<froud> So we need to do things in the db src that will work with the nwalsh transfroms
<shaunm> froud: and what does it do with them?
<froud> essentially it resolved references between documents
<froud> external refs
<froud> you need to maintain an olinks database
<froud> so preprocessing is required
<froud> but at least you can say, "See Chapter X of the Other Guide
<froud> I think that olinks is not such a high requirement for now
<froud> P4
<shaunm> hmm
<froud> but eventually will need
<froud> xrefs for internal references
<froud> I dont like link
<froud> ulink for URI
<shaunm> link has its advantages
<froud> but olinks is complicated for users and apps like yelp
<shaunm> olinks are very complicated, yes
<froud> not when you may want to do xsl:fo later
<shaunm> and their behavior is application-defined
<froud> agreed
<froud> hence I would hold off on olink
<shaunm> and I've already deviated from norm on a number of other application-defined things
<shaunm> like xrefstyle
<froud> yes I see this
<froud> point is people here like yelp
<froud> cause they dont have to transform
<froud> but yelp has its limits
<shaunm> certainly
<froud> conformance to yelp in our source can cause locking to yelp
<froud> something we wantto avoid
<shaunm> of course
<froud> so I am thinking the best is xml > X/HTML
<froud> the meta stuff from scrollkeep can come later
<froud> kde also has its problems
<froud> and processing from .desktop files is not going to be a stable solution
<froud> in fact I have not seen a standard for .desktop
<shaunm> it's on freedesktop.org
<shaunm> it's a bit under-specified, imo, but the glib and kde implementations pretty much agree
<froud> I think you are right, we need intervention from freedesktop
<shaunm> if we ever make a shared help system, it will likely use .desktop files
<froud> ok
<froud> sounds good, must look for this standard
<shaunm> because it's what kde wants, and it's a compromise I'm willing to make
<froud> another problem with yelp is that it is hard to custom
<shaunm> honestly, I don't think docbook is perfectly suited for application docs in its current form
<froud> who has the time to create a new xml app
<froud> not me
<froud> I think it works
<shaunm> it basically works, yeah
<shaunm> the semantics are a bit off
<froud> sure
<shaunm> I wouldn't dream of doing a gnome-only customization though
<froud> agreed :-)
<shaunm> I'd like to see an official docbook derivative more suited to this sort of thing
<shaunm> that kde and gnome and hopefully others would embrace
<shaunm> what sort of customizations do you want to do to yelp?
<froud> it wont be that easy
<froud> well it would be nice to be able to customize the look and feel of the content
<shaunm> do you want to cusotmize the look of the rendered documents?
<shaunm> or the topics listings?
<froud> and include jscripts for special stuff
<shaunm> well, any distro can tweak yelp's db2html.xsl
<froud> yes, we can but I was thinking more simple
<froud> have a file that yelp can load
<froud> the file defines the customs
<froud> like a docbook custom layer
<shaunm> but what would the file contain?
<froud> much what a db cust layer does today
<froud> things like are captions before or after images
<shaunm> oh, so just parameter setting?
<froud> glossary.collection
<froud> and template customs too
<froud> support for index on////off
<shaunm> well, at that level you just have to write xslt anyway
<froud> on/off
<shaunm> hmm
<shaunm> why would you want to turn indexes off?
<froud> yes but just the custom layer not the source cxsl
<shaunm> (ignoring the fact that they don't work right now)
<froud> some people do want it
<froud> sometimes the doc is not indexed
<shaunm> well, right, but that's easily detected
<froud> in custlayer can also specify css
<froud> and javascript
<froud> for example on task
<froud> to have topic with intro
<froud> and gather associated tasks via javascript
<froud> pick list
<froud> expand and collapse
<froud> etc
<froud> an dthis gem
<froud> to be able to add notes to docs under yelp
<froud> user custom
<shaunm> ok, hold on a minute
<shaunm> most of these are features, features I've thought about before, and damn cool features
<froud> user writes note, is saved local and displays when the topic is loaded
<shaunm> why don't you just implement and send upstream?
<froud> I am a writer not a coder :-(
<shaunm> and wow, somebody besides me thought of notes
<shaunm> well, yeah, but who's going to do all these customizations for ubuntu?
<froud> I do the docbook
<froud> and xsl
<shaunm> because that person should just start hacking yelp
<froud> if you dont mind giving me guidedance
<froud> I see notes on two levels
<froud> user and admin
<froud> user on localhost
<froud> admin on server
<shaunm> would be nice for admins to be able to push notes to users
<froud> yes, exactly
<froud> and for admins to collect notes
<froud> and push to GNOME or whoever
<froud> user / admin feedback
<froud> help pages are too static
<froud> they need to live
<froud> expand/collapse of lists etc
<froud> can help
<froud> and notes
<froud> no more one col top to bottom
<froud> click next to proceed
<froud> we need links in body text and in sidebars
<froud> I have a javascript to do this. I wrote it for a customer
<froud> The each topic collects related tasks
<froud> the list is expand and collapse
<shaunm> I've talked about submitting notes and such up to bugzilla through yelp
<froud> I have notes too, but did not impliment is
<shaunm> which would be nice
<froud> The customer has a custom browser that captures the notes
<shaunm> definitely if there were some sort of note thing, it would be good to be able to send up the notes
<froud> trap
<froud> agreed
<shaunm> I absolutely want expanding/collapsing sections
<froud> yes, we dont do that, but on groups of task we collect them under a heading that can be expanded
<shaunm> sure
<shaunm> but it's the same bit of javascript
<froud> for example the task of formatting has many tasks
<froud> yes
<froud> the notes is something else
<shaunm> yes
<froud> problem is I can't release it GPL
<shaunm> they'd be most useful if they could be anchored to a particular place in the page
<froud> it belongs to the customer now
<froud> we're working on that :-)
<froud> essentially our aim is to allow the user to optimize the help screen real-estate to their requirement
<froud> that inlcudes inside topics
<froud> I would like to see the same for OSS help, starting with Ubuntu
<froud> there are many challenges at Ubuntu
<froud> but we are we are willing
<froud> the good thing is we are at the start
<froud> we can mold and shape things
<froud> on most projects you cant
<froud> the legacy does not permit it
* froud points to GNOME and KDE :-)
<shaunm> right
<froud> so how do you think we can get traction on this
<shaunm> a big problem I've faced with designing a new help system is that it must maintain backwards compatibility to both scrollkeeper and kde's help system
<froud> I mean all the points discussed
<froud> 1. vendor drops 2. improvement on yelp
<shaunm> oh hold on
<shaunm> I just bit my tongue really hard
<froud> ouch!
<plovs_work> shaunm, where do you want to put the notes? some wiki-like backend?
<plovs_work> i meant, froud off-course
<shaunm> man, that really hurts
<froud> no wiki
<froud> wiki is messy
<shaunm> froud++
<plovs_work> froud, personal notes, or uploadable, and uploadable to where?
* plovs_work likes wiki
<froud> in client server?
<froud> on the server with help loaded from server
<froud> that is in Remote X
<shaunm> I wouldn't want to require net connectivity to use notes
<froud> on local host under .notes
<froud> or something
<shaunm> if I'm on my laptop on an airplane, I should be able to write a little note to myself
<shaunm> I should be able to write notes that are just *mine*
<froud> used something like iFolder for sync
<shaunm> I don't think notes should be pushed to others without an explicit action
<froud> yes, that is like iFolder
<plovs_work> and maybe uploadable to bugzilla so good notes don't get lost
<shaunm> yes, totally
<froud> yes eventual integration
<froud> what about a web service
<froud> pass notes as xml
<froud> to web service
<shaunm> well, bugzilla talking is likely to come in 2.12
<froud> but web services can be added to bgz
<shaunm> they hopefully will be
<plovs_work> shaunm, can/will yelp be able to show html?
<shaunm> it's been talked about a lot
<shaunm> plovs_work: it can
<froud> of course the xml-instance trasmitted must be in a valid format for bgz
<froud> plovs, it will
<shaunm> always has been able to
<shaunm> except for about the last two weeks, because I accidentally broke it
<plovs_work> shaunm, so we could write our docs in xml, convert it to html and then show it with yelp?
<shaunm> but it's fixed now
<shaunm> yes
<shaunm> you won't get the fancy sidebar or some other niceties, but they'll display
<plovs_work> shaunm, can I make a sidebar with css or tables?
<shaunm> well
<shaunm> you can put whatever you want into your html, within reason
<shaunm> the sidebar in yelp, though, is seperate from the page
<shaunm> there's really no way to get one of those for html files
<plovs_work> :-) within reason sounds nice ...
<shaunm> at the moment
<shaunm> well
<shaunm> "within reason": frames are known not to work, and I make no guarantees about javascript
<shaunm> it's a help program, not a web browser
<froud> shaunm, xml > nwalsh htmlhelp > yelp
<froud> Jirka would love that :-)
<shaunm> big fan of htmlhelp?
<froud> shaunm, the problem is that yelp is young
<froud> but not enough coders to work on it
<shaunm> well, it's really quite old
<shaunm> I mean, except for the fact that the current yelp has almost nothing to do with the old yelp
<froud> we writers may have all the dreams, but we need coders
<shaunm> and I'm pretty much the only regular yelp developer
<froud> old yelp is dead
<froud> the way forward is with the new yelp
<shaunm> Yelp is dead!  Long live Yelp!
<plovs_work> shaunm, i like the one in hoary, it is a lot nicer then the one in warty, better graphics, stuff lines up etc
<froud> :-)
<shaunm> which one is in hoary?
<plovs_work> 2.9.2?
<shaunm> 2.9?
<froud> 2.9.?
<plovs_work> i use warty here
<froud> may be 10
<shaunm> yeah, I'm mostly pleased with the new formatting
<plovs_work> just a sec
<shaunm> using gecko has helped a lot
<shaunm> I envy ubuntu
<froud> gecko - a small lizard that loses it tail when it gets a fright
<froud> so join us :-)
<shaunm> you guys have such an active and eager docs community
<shaunm> the gnome docs community kind of died, for various reasons
<froud> really that's why the docs are empty
<shaunm> and I've been trying to pull it back together
<plovs_work> shaunm, and it's not close to as active as we would like
<froud> point is its new and we can do what we like
<plovs_work> shaunm, but if you join us, we need to work on gnome docs as well :-)
<shaunm> the fedora docs community seemed to explode with interest at first
<froud> shaunm, documentation is a go-to-market strategy
<plovs_work> the plus of ubuntu is that the docs-team is part of the developers group, more or less, we went to mataro as well for example
<froud> make a business case for writers and it will work
<shaunm> but then it turned out to be a bunch of geeks writing stuff like "Bastardizing your fedora system to behave like gentoo for your uber-leet pr0n server"
<plovs_work> shaunm, we're a little older then that :-)
* plovs_work just *knows* his wife would kill him if he wrote something like that
<shaunm> as well she should
* froud thinks we need documentation bounties. Canonical R U LISTENING!!!
<shaunm> ximian/novell set up a couple
<shaunm> in their "gnome" bounties
<shaunm> god did that ever piss me off
<froud> yes, :-)
<froud> I work on SuSE
<shaunm> they were all evolution-related, and hardly my top priority for the gnome docs team
<froud> mostly with Novell South Africa
<shaunm> but they were presented as if they were what the community wanted
<shaunm> I mean, if Novell wants to put up money for stuff like that, that's cool.  I'm all for it.  But don't make it sound like it's coming from me.
<froud> no that was not right
<froud> did you speak to them
<froud> they are a good bunch to work wit
<froud> if not speak to Nat
* froud point to http://www.nat.org
<plovs_work> froud, there *are* documentation bounties
<froud> plovs_work, where?
<plovs_work> 50/50 up front and i'll tell ya!
<plovs_work> ok, ok, let me find it...
<froud> on ubuntu?
<plovs_work> yes
<froud> share :-)
<froud> they are not here http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/bounties
* froud waits... the suspense is killing
<froud> shaunm, so you with us?
<froud> great good to have you onboard
<froud> :-)
<froud> now we need to get you a commiter access
<froud> :-)
<froud> anyting else you need?/
<plovs_work> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals
* froud cringes as he just made a total mess of a vendor drop
<plovs_work> hmm, no there was one more page
<froud> plovs_work, I looked high and low on ubuntu, there are none
<plovs_work> there used to be though
<shaunm> froud: I did raise my objections, as did others.  Nat said it would be addressed, and it wasn't.
<froud> plovs_work, Nah! not in my time
<froud> shaunm, that figures
<shaunm> well, so far, I've gotten on bad terms with Red Hat's documentation team, Novell's documentation team, and Sun's documentation team.
<shaunm> *especially* Sun's documentation team
<froud> yes, I felt the sun one :-)
<froud> all three have their problems
<froud> I manage to work well with them,      but dont stick it out to far
<froud> I may lose a limb:-)
<froud> OK, I am back to work. I would like to see how we get traction on this discussion and how we get confirmation from shaunm to join us.:-)
<shaunm> I can't commit to any distro, really.  I have my hands full with gnome.
<froud> even if it achieves GNOME goals?
<shaunm> are you guys going to work on gnome docs?
<froud> if we have GNOME vendor drop, which I am testing
<froud> we will push back to GNOME
<froud> and some of us may, join GNOME DOCssssss
<shaunm> right now, I'm both the yelp maintainer and the chief tech writer for gnome
<shaunm> which is more than I can handle
<froud> if we see that the app has no docs and will be in ubuntu
<froud> shaunm, I am chief technical writer on comercial projects and a number of OSS ones. It's all to much sigh, sob, sob.
* froud puts his head on shaunm s' shoulder
<froud> OK, well let's stay in contact
<froud> you on the ubuntu docs list?
<plovs_work> froud, why don't you make a write-up of what we miss in yelp, what would make our life easier?
<froud> plovs, I can
<plovs_work> shaunm, fell free to drop by as often as you want, you'll notice we're the nicest doc-team in town :-)
<froud> perhaps documentthe grand vision we have set before ourselves today :-)
<plovs_work> froud, :-)
<froud> plovs_work, but would it help. I mean we need traction.
<froud> I am trying to test evndor drops
<froud> vendor drops
<froud> well trying to do it in a way that makes it easy for us
* froud wishes GNOME used SVN
<froud> My poor hardisk is loaded 
<froud> shaunm, I need a way to checkout just the docs
<froud> doing checkout of apps + docs is toooooooo much
<shaunm> bah svn
<froud> careful I am having an affair with SVN at the moment. She is very nice to me
* shaunm fanboys arch
<plovs_work> shaunm, ok, now you've done it, now you've gotten on bad terms with Red Hat's documentation team, Novell's documentation team, and Sun's documentation team *and* the Ubuntu doc-team
<shaunm> well, so there's no single command you can do to get all the docs
<froud> OK lets have a baz war
<shaunm> but the location of each doc is given on http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/DocTable2.10
<shaunm> plovs_work: yeah, I'm good at that
<shaunm> *most* of the application docs are <module>/help
<shaunm> but not all
<shaunm> if I had my way, all user documentation would always use <module>/help/<docname>
* froud thinks he needs to script this
<shaunm> oh, I have something for you then
<shaunm> if I still have it
* froud looks on panting, pant, pant
<froud> plovs_work, do svn up and take a peek at the XSL I hacked to create the DocOwner/Maintainer Status Reports
<shaunm> hmm, the listing is out of date
<froud> plovs_work, test it on adminguide/adminguide.xml
<froud> shaunm, that's why I am starting to automate the ubuntu one
<froud> plovs, we need to run it on each doc
<froud> next step is to create the make file to do so
<froud> then enrico and mako can cron it and upload to some place that we can link to from Wiki [http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStatus] 
<shaunm> well, anyway
<shaunm> http://www.gnome.org/~shaunm/doctable/
<shaunm> grab doaproll.rdf and cvsup
<shaunm> the listing isn't perfectly up to date, but it's most of everything
<froud> cool that will help
<froud> thanks
<shaunm> oh, actually
<froud> you just saved me hours
<shaunm> that checks out everything
<shaunm> at any rate, doaproll.rdf is machine-readable, so you should be able to do whatever you want with it
<shaunm> oh!
<shaunm> and you'll have to install xml starlet to run that script
<shaunm> which you should install anyway.  it's a godsend
<froud> send xml starlet url so I can learn more
<froud> got it
<shaunm> it's the grep, sed, and awk of xml
<froud> hoooo ha, the docteam r gonna luv this
<froud> that's a gem
<froud> enrico, I see another wiki page comming
<shaunm> I'm listed on the developers page, but I've never submitted a single line of code. :/
<froud> somebody loves you afterall :-)
<enrico> froud: hey!
<enrico> froud, shaum: have you been talking since I got out?
<froud> enrico, do svn up and take a look in housekeep at the xsl
* enrico fears
<shaunm> well, so I had been developing a similar tool and using it for my own stuff
<froud> yes
<shaunm> and I'd meant to package it up for others to use
<froud> and so where is it
<froud> give it to us!
<shaunm> then this posted to the libxml2 list announcing xml starlet, and he was already much farther along than I was
<enrico> froud: COOL!  The autostatus thing!
<froud> enrico, the basic xsl yes
<shaunm> so I threw my code away and wholly endorsed his
<froud> now need script to make the files uplaod ready
<shaunm> oh, actually, looks like Mikhail has removed me from the developer list
<froud> shaunm, fair enough
<shaunm> yeah
<froud> enrico, you can test it on adminguide
<enrico> cool cool cool
<froud> it makes a docbook article type
<froud> you can read it in yelp
<froud> and can be transformed using nwalsh stylesheets to HTML
<enrico> did you make a make target for it?
<froud> that's next
<froud> do you think it should be in the main makefile
<froud> or have its own
<enrico> I'd say main makefile.  Like a make status that creates a status article in build/ involving status from all documents
* froud has not done any large commits of late. Been closing the production on a new book just finished writing
<froud> enrico, ok, now you just need to get the authors to insert authorblurbs on items
<froud> then we need a script to remove them prior to version release
<plovs_work> froud, how does it work?
<enrico> froud: me and you do it.  If plovs does it as well, then it's 100% of the committers at the moment :)
<enrico> plovs_work: this is an easy and cool one: 
* enrico looks for a url
<froud> plovs_work,  xsltproc userguide/test.xml userguide/usersguide.xml
<froud> then transform that to html
<enrico> plovs_work: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamWork  (see "Marking what you do")
<froud> plovs_work,  xsltproc userguide/test.html userguide/test.xml
<enrico> plovs_work: you do that, and Sean's autocoolthing will generate a cool status page
<enrico> plovs_work: minimum effort, maximum win
<froud> enrico, its rough and basic but does the job. We can always improve
<enrico> froud: I like it because it's simple and quite convenient to use
<froud> yikes I must get back to work, production deadlines today. Gotta go to the printer and arts guy etc.
<enrico> froud: wow!  Good work!
<froud> shaunm, that's will be in touch. r u on the mailing list
<enrico> plovs_work: did you see how it works?
<plovs_work> just trying, work is hectic today
<froud> plovs_work,  dont forget you need to pass the stylesheet in the transform process
<plovs_work> installing xsltproc again (clean hoary install)
<froud> plovs_work, then cd housekeep
<froud> do
<froud> xsltproc -o test.xml writeOwnerStatus.xsl ../adminguide/adminguide.xml
<froud> then do yelp test.xml
* plovs_work needs a faster computer
<plovs_work> COOL!
<froud> on the mainboard or between the keyboard and the seat?
<plovs_work> between the keyboard and the seat is outdated, no more upgrades available
<froud> :-)
<froud> ok, so this needs to be run on each doc in the projects list
<plovs_work> running quickguide
<froud> I will out to base.dir build/status
<froud> so plovs_work you just add authorblurbs to what you will be doing
<froud> I'll take care of the make for this
<froud> enrico, will take care of cronjob and upload
<enrico> I will
<froud> Next lady for a shave ?
<enrico> We can decide that everything in build/ will end up in http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~mako/docteam/ and whatever the alias is going to be
<froud> ok, goo
<froud> good
<froud> so you want to use make dist and give tar.gz
<froud> to mako
<froud> make dist outs to ubuntu-docs/
<froud> I suggest we run make all
<froud> and make status
<froud> both out to build/
<mako> enrico, froud: hey there
<froud> mako, speak of the devel
<froud> devil
<froud> :-)
<mako> devel too :)
<froud> mako, svn up
<froud> check xsl in housekeep
<froud> creates owner/status list
<froud> as db xml article
* mako was *just* about to go to sleep :)
<mako> i'll check it out first thing tomorrow
<mako> i took today off
<froud> no time for sleep now dude
<mako> (mostly)
<enrico> mako: and read my mail :)
<froud> we're on a role
<mako> awesome
<mako> enrico: i'm downloading mail right now
<froud> Ok and while you are at it we need coffee. Black two sugars fro me. thanks
<enrico> simple proposal: if xltproc and all the rest are installed on people, you can cron the build and upload
<enrico> to avoid us feeding you binary code, you make a snapshot of a makefile, and you copy it back after a svn update
<enrico> s/binary/arbitrary/
<enrico> this is it.  That'd be very simple for everyone
<mako> enrico: are you guys distributing the xslt though?
<mako> that's the problem
<enrico> You mean the docbook xslt?
<mako> i've actually filed patches that fix security bugs in the debian *default* xslt db stylesheets
<mako> (the slide stylesheets granted, but still)
<mako> they were automatically downloadin, including and processing xslt from the web
<enrico> We distribute at least the xslt to create the stats
<mako> xslt is a full language
<mako> it's not just a matter of the makefile
<enrico> I see.  Too bad.
<mako> i mean, i'm happy to do it
<mako> but i think we should ask elmo/'thom first
<mako> they've been very very conservative in the past
<mako> they've said no to me in the past a few times.. so i'm a little skepitical
<mako> they talk about setting up some uml or chroot syste.. which would be perfect
<mako> but it's not around....
<enrico> well, we can always cron the download and extract of a tarball I generate
<mako> yes, absolutely
<mako> i was thinking about maybe building on a machine of my own even
<enrico> mako: about Elmo, it's 2 days I chase him for the svn migration thing
<mako> or even better(!)
<enrico> he told me he'd get back to me on tuesday, eh
<mako> no wait.. hmm
* enrico always has to chase people
<mako> he sends me messages like "mako!" and then doesn't reply for a day too
* froud waits for coffee
<mako> simple admin things are very easy to fix
<mako> usually super quick turnaround
<mako> but "set up this new thing or make this decision about a new piece of software" are always kind of lower on the list it seems
<mako> and i understand why this is, but it's quite annoying sometimes
<froud> dudes, just move svn. forget the baz etc
<froud> mako give me ssh access
<froud> done by tonight :-)
* froud will send the bill :-)
<mako> froud: nobody without a contract gets ssh access *period* inside the protected network
<mako> :-/
* froud puts on his miners hard hat
* froud looks down the tunnel and switches on the head lamp
<mako> enrico: i'm gonna read your email and then go to sleep :)
<enrico> mako: ok.  Good night!
<froud> me off 2. serious thi stime. read it in logs or better on the list
<froud> chow
* plovs_work feeding-time
<mako> plovs_work: hey there! :)
<plovs_work> hi!
<mako> plovs_work: well. i'm off too but we can talk again soon
<plovs_work> ok :-)
* enrico upgrades his warty image to hoary
<enrico> just change sources.list and go?
<plovs_work> enrico, dist-upgrade and lots of patience
<jiyuu0> enrico, some girls registering http://www.livejournal.com/users/jiyuu0/22951.html
<jiyuu0> today's recruitment... 35/80 girls
<enrico> jiyuu0: still quite a high average
<enrico> jiyuu0: it is to be seen how to go from that high average to have women hackers
<froud> African greetings
<froud> tester wanted
<froud> anyone up 
<Kinnison> tester?
<Kinnison> what for?
<froud> make status
<froud> do svn up
<froud> in trunk runmake status
<froud> see if it builds the status pages in build/status
<froud> build/status/
<Kinnison> svn url?
<froud> the docs url
<Kinnison> which is?
<froud> http://69.155.172.150/faq
* Kinnison does svn co
<Kinnison> what do i need to install to test?
<Kinnison> well, I apparently have xsltproc already so that's a start
<froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/ForTheHasty
<Kinnison> it is sitting resolving stuff over and over
<Kinnison> and connecting to 209.222.168.105
<froud> you dont have everything installed
<froud> and catalog is not working
* Kinnison installs xt-catalog
<froud> do you have the other parts installed
<Kinnison> that is right isn't it?
<Kinnison> I have xsltproc
<Kinnison> what else do I need?
<Kinnison> that page wasn't very helpful
<froud> you need the dtd and xsl from docbook
<Kinnison> I have docbook-xsl installed
<froud> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamWork
<Kinnison> That still doesn't say exactly what packages I have to install
<Kinnison> for a doc team; this is very poorly documented
<froud> For the hasty say it all, but you need the DTD and XSL
* Kinnison will say exactly once more... *WHAT PACKAGES SHOULD I INSTALL*
<froud> xsltproc should look for your catalof default in etc/xml/
<froud> Kinnison, xsltproc, docbook dtd and xsl
<froud> you most likely have GNU Make right?
<Kinnison> E: Couldn't find package dtd
<froud> I will say ONCE MORE install the Docbook DTD
* Kinnison gives up
<Kinnison> if you can't tell me the package name then what am I supposed to do? guess?
<froud> Kinnison, r u working on docs?
<Kinnison> No
* Kinnison merely offered to try and help you out
* Kinnison is not a documentation person
<froud> Ok will I dont know what they cal the package for Docbook on Ubuntu
<Kinnison> Oh
* Kinnison spanks the docteam for not having this info written down anywhere obvious
<froud> well its basic to doc people
<froud> but perhaps we should doc the install in wiki
<froud> use pin
<froud> pin docbook
<Kinnison> -bash: pin: command not found
<Kinnison> http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/dbnotnx.mod appears to be one of the things I'm lacking
<froud> Hmmm, what a pitty now theres a gem tool
<froud> then there is something wrong with the docbook DTD isstall on your machine
<froud> if no local docbook is found then it will default to the network
<froud> if your connection is slow it may result in problems
<Kinnison> well considering I've never done anything for it so far I assume I'm simply missing some package or something
<froud> search for it in aptitude
* Kinnison fetches the contents file to look in that
<froud> Heh heh, nothing beats good old YaST
<Kinnison> well apparently I have dbnotnx.mod version 4.3 installed
<Kinnison> but it's not working
<Kinnison> do I need some kind of catalogue tool?
<froud> there should be a catalog in etc/xml/
<froud> your xsltproc should default to that
<Kinnison> it finds /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml
<froud> if its not wacked in the distro, it should Just Work
<Kinnison> and then it tries to stat() random http urls
<froud> that will do
<Kinnison> which is really freaky
<froud> Hmm the catalog should be using rewriteURI
<froud> something is really wrong. you on Hoary?
<Kinnison> warty
<froud> Hmm we know it to work on warty
<Kinnison> I must simply be missing some critical package I can't work out
<froud> hold to get you the package
<froud> http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/
<froud> should be able to get want you need there
<Kinnison> I have all the files on disk
<froud> so what does it say is missing
<Kinnison> it doesn't say anything is missing
<Kinnison> it just goes to the 'net instead of reading off disc
<Kinnison> can I tell xsltproc not to do that?
<froud> ok set -nonet
<Kinnison> I'll try that and see what it says
<Kinnison> I/O error : Attempt to load network entity http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd
<Kinnison> quickguide/quickguide.xml:8: warning: failed to load external entity "http://www.oasis-open.org/docbook/xml/4.3/docbookx.dtd"
<Kinnison> ] >
<Kinnison>   ^
<froud> aftr -nonet
<Kinnison> without --nonet it works (slowly as it goes to the net)
<froud> ok let it run the problem is your catlogs are not working
<froud> let me find that piece you can export to the env
* Kinnison lets it run
<Kinnison> it doesn't honour http_proxy which doesn't help
<froud> export XML_CATALOG_FILES to your env with the value /usr/share/xml/docbook/schema/dtd/4.3/catalog.xml
<Kinnison> seems faster
<froud> Something is strange on Ubuntu's setup of libxml2
<Kinnison> okay; that runs to completion
<Kinnison> with no errors
<Kinnison> (make status)
<froud> ok cd build/status
<froud> you should have xml and html files
<Kinnison> dsilvers@petitemort:~/dev-svn/ubuntu-doc/trunk/build/status$ ls
<Kinnison> faq-report.html  qg-report.html  rn-report.html  ug-report.html
<Kinnison> faq-report.xml   qg-report.xml   rn-report.xml   ug-report.xml
<Kinnison> that's the lot
<froud> good
<froud> ok so it works
<Kinnison> so something is wrong with the catalog on my system but that's not the docteam's problem
* Kinnison hopes that was helpful to you
<froud> its the basis for doing automated status reporting on the doc projects
<froud> very thanks for your patience :-)
<Kinnison> no probs
<froud> l8tr
<Kinnison> cya
<kbrooks> Hey.
<kbrooks> brb.
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-01
<jimbo> can anyone help me getting sound to work on ubuntu?  "new to linux" and I installed ubuntu 4.10 on an older computer that has a sound blaster live  sound card.  
<kbrooks> hmmmm, i dontt think anyone here knows.
<kbrooks> nor do i.
<jimbo> is there a sound card you would suggest?  :)
<sivang> kbrooks: hi!
<froud> African greetings
<abelli> buon giorno
<froud> African Greetings
<froud> anyone had a case where wharty hangs during install of the base system?
<froud> I can only get to about 40% and then no more on one of my mtest achines
<froud> insall sue, mandrake and fc3 on the smae machine no problems
<froud> ChrisH, ping
<sm> froud: try #ubuntu
<froud> sm, it's hopeless asking there
<froud> stupid thing is I can install other distros on that box without problem
<sm> if it were me, I'd try the array 3 cd announced on ubuntu-dev list
<sm> (hoary)
<froud> I need the current ubuntu box for something else and cant install the new machine with ubuntu
<abelli> froud: what's the problem
<sivang> froud: install warty and dist-upgrade, the best way I think
<froud> abelli, install of base cant complete
<abelli> sivang: what base?
<abelli> i mean which hoary?
<froud> i'm using warty install cd
<sivang> froud: latest?
<abelli> ahh... does it stops at 67, or 34?
<abelli> :)
<sivang> froud: there are patched ones, fixed ,that wen after the relase.
<abelli> s/s//
<froud> the most recent sent to me by mako via shipit
<froud> but why can other distros install
<abelli> can you alt-f3? and tell what you see?
<froud> yes I can but now running hardware diagnostics on machine
<froud> the message to do with dependancies
<froud> its crazy
<abelli> what?
<froud> I even changed vid adapter and nic just in case
<abelli> are you doing the standard install?
<froud> also screams because I dont have a floppy disk drive on that machine
<sivang> froud: what seems to be the problem?
<froud> yes 
<froud> and run it with linux acpi=off
<froud> sivang, dont have the exact message at momemnt just doing HW diag on machine
<froud> but essentially install does not get p[ast the base system
<froud> fails arround 40%
<sivang> I think you have a prerelease cd or something,
<sivang> I recall this problem prerelease but it got fixed.
<sivang> try to download a new one from the archive.
<froud> I break mako's neck if that is the case :-)
<abelli> you should read alt-f3's shouts, or alt-f2 then "enter" and "tail /var/log/syslog"
<froud> abelli, yes, when I      have finished hw diag and try install again
<abelli> froud: well use hoary then...
<froud> maybe there is something wrong with on eof the memory banks or something
<abelli> froud: ?!
<froud> Hmm ther emust be a local mirror in co.za
<froud> abelli, dont mind me I will work it out
<sivang> froud: mako has nothing to do with it :)
<froud> anyone know of a haory mirror image in co.za
<sivang> for downloaidng ISO?
<sivang> don't go there, hoary installer is pretty buggy at the moment, wouldn't recommend it for installing.
<froud> got it ftp://ftp.is.co.za/linux/distributions/ubuntu/cdimage/releases/hoary/array-3/
<froud> really
<abelli> sivang: it's even better than warty's ... cmon :)
<sivang> abelli: dependes how good you can read the debug messages :)
<sivang> on ALT+F2/F3
<abelli> froud: you are in the middle of the tao's circle -> chose which way you want to follow... [..Neo] 
<froud> ok hw is ok all check sgood
<froud> here goes
<sm> is there someone who can do a zwiki upgrade on ?
<froud> ok 'failed to install the base system' ' The base system installation into /target/ failed'
<froud> going to console 3
<froud> segmentation fault
<froud> its crying about no floppy device
<froud> true there is none
<abelli> well you dont need one..
<froud> FATAl: Error inserting floppy (/lib/modules/2.6.8.1-3-386/kernel/drivers/block/floppy.ko) : No such device
<froud> blah blah the same stuff
<froud> the
<froud> No such Device
<abelli> that's not a problem..
<froud> No Matching physical volumes found
<froud> No volume groups found
<abelli> i think you should try hoary
<froud> free(): invalid pointer 0x.....
<froud> Segmentation Fault
<froud> well I guess I can fix it by installing a floppy :-)
<froud> but this is stupid, should not have have a floppy
<froud> I also tried turn floppy off in BIOS
<froud> smae results
<froud> same
<froud> doenloading hoary iso
* froud adds 1.44 FDD to machine. Install now at 36%. crosses finger, legs, arms and eye-balls
<abelli> froud: anything else?
<froud> Oh no now it has aproblem with debootstrap
<abelli> hoary... hoary... hoary...
<froud> /usr/bin/debootstrap: 1: echo: not found
<froud> Segmentation Fault
<abelli> gimme an H, a big O, an then A-R-Y, HOARRRYYYYYY
* froud cringes at the 555 MB download
<froud> :-)
<froud> cant believe how messed this wary release is :-(
* froud really hopes this 555 MB download is worth it
<sivang> froud: warty worked swell for a buch of installation I did
<froud> yeah, I got it on other boxes just fine.
<froud> but this box says, "NO UBUNTU FOR ME"
<froud> feed it SuSE, OpenBSD, Slackware, FC and Mandrake and it just ran
<abelli> SUSE?!?!?!?MANDRAKE?!?!?!
<sivang> froud: shoot the box at sight :)
<froud> Carefull SuSE rocks
<froud> but you can give MDK to the dogs along with Lindows
<froud> sivang, and if I did shoot them I would have a lot of dead penguins in my office. Do you really think I need a bunch of animal rights activits outside my door in the morning
<sivang> hehe
<sivang> I ment shoot hte ubuntu rejecting box
<froud> or shoot ubuntu
<froud> here is a gem
<froud> dpkg: base-files: dependancy problems, but configuring annnyway as you request:
<froud> base-files depnds on awk; however:
<froud> Package awk is not installed,
<froud> Setiing up base-files (3.0.1buntu6)
<froud> have you ever  .....
<sm> hey all.. what do you think of the AllPages wiki page ?
<sm> I think it would be better if not there
<abelli> sid77: ciao
<sid77> ciao
<sm> because the name is misleading (contents link is more complete), and it creates confusion about where to parent new stuff
<sm> I'd like to delete it and let it's children be at the top level
<mako> sounds fine to me
<abelli> mako: have you checked the ubuntuguide translation applet?
<sm> ok, deleting
<sm> much better
<_d4vid> ky all
<sm> also: I think there should be one canonical (sic) url for the website, and others should always redirect there, to avoid confusion with urls, authentication, caching etc.
<sm> http://ubuntulinux.org/... would be my suggestion
<sm> what do you all think
<sivang> abelli: it has one? didn't know avout it
<abelli> cosa?
<abelli> ..sorry: what?
<sivang> abelli: translation applet for ubuntguide?
<abelli> yeah wait a sec
<abelli> http://83.103.20.69/ubuntu_guide/admin/edit.php 
<abelli> username: igor
<abelli> password: guida
<abelli> its an alpha stage..
<kbrooks> poke
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-02
<jdz_> hello!
<sivang> hey jdz_ 
<jdz_> I'm actually headed home, be back on in a bit
<trickie> hello
<trickie> anyone: when making a cross reference to another part of a docbook, sean suggested to me to use xref.
<trickie> anyone: but xref doesn't seem to render in Yelp
<trickie> anyone: what i really want is an internal link
<trickie> anyone: any ideas?
<froud> African Greetings
<trickie> Australian Greetings
<froud> hey trickie 
<trickie> froud, hello there!
<froud> what up in oz
<froud> the place still burning
<trickie> no... not at the moment :)
<trickie> at least not that i am aware of
<trickie> just a nice sunny saturday arvo here in melb
<trickie> Australian Open Tennis is on at the moment here
<froud> trickie, it should be later there now
<trickie> froud, later?
<froud> It should be late at night
<trickie> froud, it is 7.45pm
<froud> ah yes
<froud> hell the time zone in au always confusd me
<trickie> froud, he he... you are in SA are't you?
<froud> how's it going on the srelease notes
<froud> yes
<trickie> yeah not too bad
<trickie> I am trying to figure out how to do intenral linsk in docbook... 
<froud> internal you mean within the same document
<trickie> yes
<trickie> Sean was telling/showing me how to use xref, but it doesn't render any thing in Yelp...
<froud> <xref linkend="[someId] "/>
<trickie> yeah... i have that now for something...
<froud> You mean Shaunm
<froud> or Sean
<froud> I am Sean
<trickie> he he
<trickie> yes you!
<froud> Ok
<froud> I noticed problems with yelp and xref
<trickie> yeah
<froud> what version of yelp
<trickie> hmmm... i'll check ... i still have warty on this machine
<trickie> 2.6.4
<froud> Yes, it's wacked
<trickie> ok
<froud> I think it is best to run the make targets
<trickie> yeah
<trickie> ok
<froud> have you run make before
<froud> you can do make rn
<trickie> yeah
<froud> ok good
<trickie> nah i hadn't tried the make scripts
<froud> with all the problems in yelp I am betting on plain old html
<froud> I would like to use yelp, but it just has too many problems
<froud> I added make rn a few days ago
<froud> sent a message to the list about it
<trickie> yeah thanks
<trickie> that works ok...
<trickie> i get a hyperlink now... 
<froud> Yes
<froud> want a tip
<trickie> yo
<froud> you can also add id attributes to things like title elements
<froud> <sect1 id="sect-somename"><title id="title-sect-somename">.....
<froud> then use <xref linkend="" endterm=""/>
<froud> where
<froud> <xref linkend="sect-somename" endterm="title-sect-somename"/>
<froud> It useful if you wantto take the lext link from somewhere else
<froud> for example from a subtitle
<trickie> yeah cool
<froud> <sect1 id="sect-somename"><title>...</title><subtitle id="subtitle-sect-somename">...
<trickie> i have been using endterm to link into a list
<trickie> can an id be given to any element?
<froud> yes you can also use it on phrase when the phrase is inline in a para
<froud> yes
<froud> what editor do you use
<trickie> gvim
<trickie> what do you use?
<froud> oxygen http://www.inwords.co.za/products.html
<froud> it's a commercail product
<froud> comercial
<froud> but only $64
<froud> needs java
<trickie> ok... i have read good things about it
<froud> makes editing faster
<froud> and has tag insight so you can easily see the attibutes an element takes
<trickie> ah ok... like code completion suggestions in IDE's like eclipse
<froud> yes
<froud> you can also use oxygen as an eclipse plugin
<trickie> nice
<trickie> i like eclipse... i haven't installed any java software on ubuntu
<trickie> I used to use OSX for java based stuff cause it was so pain free...
<trickie> but now i put Ubuntu on my ibook too!
<froud> yeah, the ubuntu guys aren't hot on java
<trickie> no...
<froud> personally I love it
<froud> also like QT cause it can run anywhere
<trickie> although it seems pretty straight forward to get the Sun x86 installer happening
<trickie> yeah QT is nice
<froud> you installed Ubuntu instead of OXX
<froud> OSX
<froud> wow
<trickie> yeah
<froud> why OSX is so cool
<trickie> it worked so well!
<trickie> um... it is an old ibook, got as heap of ram, but it just doesn't keep sometimes
<trickie> it performs so much better with ubuntu on it
<froud> good to know
<trickie> but one day i want a G5 and then i'll stick to OSX :)
<trickie> wait... a dual G5
<froud> yes G% is cool, but my dream is a Cray
<trickie> he he
<trickie> ah nice
<trickie> opne day aye
<trickie> one day aye
<froud> there's only two in south africa
<froud> its a military weapon :-)
<trickie> as expected
<trickie> probably a similar situation here
<froud> yep
<trickie> well time for some dinner i reckon...
<froud> ok gonna do some work. having bandwidth problems here
<trickie> thanks for the xref/yelp help
<froud> anytime
<trickie> see ya
<sivang> ChrisH: ping
<ChrisH> sivang: Hi... I'm in bed. 39.5C fever :(
<venda> ChrisH, so what you doing on IRC?
<ChrisH> venda: recovering :)
<ChrisH> venda: Actually I was curious what I missed. I'm not used to stay offline for three days. Makes me nervous.
<venda> ChrisH, have not missed much
<venda> ChrisH, you can see two of me now, froud and venda
<ChrisH> venda: at least you have become schizo :)
<venda> froud is my SuSE box, venda is my ubuntu box
<venda> finally got warty installed
<venda> after long fight o do so
<venda> then I switched of acpi in the BIOS and hey what do you know it worked.
<ChrisH> notebook?
<venda> no
<ChrisH> strange
<ChrisH> I only had troubles with installing Ubuntu on laptops. PCs always worked here. And I have very weird PCs.
<venda> yeah and a ran the install with linux acpi=off
<venda> but that did not work
<venda> only when I disabled in the bios
<ChrisH> I read that some manufacturers don't care much for their acpi implementation. It just needs to work on XP.
<venda> now I am trying to figure how we can do vendor drops in an easy way
<ChrisH> Yeah, the vendors drops thingy sounds both mightyful and mysterious to me.
<venda> problem is GNOME is in CVS
<ChrisH> We probably won't convince them to use baz. :)
<froud> and each apps has its own C/docs or C/help directory
<abelli> ciao
<abelli> Kinnison: haloa
<froud> abelli, now I have warty
<abelli> why
<froud> give me a W, give me a A
<froud> discoved if I switch off acopi in the BIOS warty installs
<abelli> what was it?
<abelli> brand?
<venda> no name build it myself
<abelli> Kinnison: what about the toskiba acpi?
<abelli> venda: what?
<venda> venda = froud
<venda> froud = venda
<venda> venda = ubuntu
<venda> froud = SuSE
<abelli> venda: how did you do that?
<venda> two boxes
<venda> and a vnc
<abelli> eheh.. no i mean. how did you build your diy laptop?
<venda> laptop no its a atx
<abelli> ah...
<venda> I get the pieces and diy
<venda> cheaper
<venda> only cost me ZAR700
<abelli> yeah.. i just associated the word acpi, with the meaning "laptop power management"
<abelli> how many euros?
<venda> Hmmm dunno hold
<abelli> ok http://www.anysystem.com/u60-ugly-1.html
<froud> 90.3892
<abelli> what?
<froud> well built a P3 1GHz with 768RAM for the above
<abelli> i mean.. who did you stole it?
<froud> no man
<abelli> s/stole/*
<froud> Just buy the pieces from the right places and build it
<froud> Oh and it has ATI AGP with 128MB
<abelli> with 90 euros you want get your gf out on saturday night here in italy
<froud> I know that why I love Africa
<abelli> froud: would you host me [ill sleep under your stairs] ?
<froud> no worries I have a self contained flat upstairs
<froud> 100 m sq
<froud> would that be enough
<froud> Italy is nice but expensive
<abelli> etologist say i only need 10 , sq
<froud> etologists never been to africa :-)
<froud> Here to have good 'ubuntu' you need space :-)
<abelli> well the rest of the world seems to be very expensive compared to africa..
<abelli> :)
<froud> Yes
<abelli> that's why my prime minister is silvio berl*
<abelli> because there's no ubuntu in the air :)
<froud> :--0
<abelli> a little thougt: why can you buy a 90E computer and why cant you afford adsl?
<abelli> with "you" i mean south africans...
<froud> I am on DSL 512
<abelli> do you know what a freedom toaster is?
<froud> but telkom our telescum company caps
<froud> of course
<abelli> ok...
<froud> and no freedom toaster near me
<abelli> jason, the project leader, told me that in south africa dsl connections are really expensive
<froud> yes
<froud> costs me 1000 zar a month and if I use more than 3GB the throttle my bandwidth
<froud> EU 129.1275
<froud> maskie, feel free to chime in anytime
<froud> maskie is on ISDN
<froud> special call rate on weekends
<abelli> ...it's like having a great brain [cheap computers]  and not the opportunity to communicate your thoughts [absurd dsl rates] 
<froud> 7 ZAR for any call between friday night and monday morn
<froud> yeah, but still love africa
<abelli> and isnt there an anti-trust thing?
<froud> kawabunga!!! a what?
<froud> where
<froud> who
<froud> why
<abelli> in italy, there's an agency that _pretend_ to control
<abelli> services' rates
<froud> democracy is all about prentending to controll
<abelli> and its called anti-trust
<froud> yeah, there is that here
<froud> but this is the wild wild west
<froud> who cares about rules and regulations
<abelli> ok follow my reasoning:
<froud> on one side its good because there is much opportunity
<froud> ok reason
<abelli> id like to come in SA ->
<abelli> ...no no.. 
<abelli> if in south africa computers are cheap..
<venda> woza!!
<abelli> there's no need for a trashware.project right?
<venda> come again trashware.project
<abelli> because i was thinking to use ubuntu, for a trashware project we have for cuba.
<venda> Aah
<venda> yebo
<abelli> trashware: collecting old [but still decently usable computers] 
<venda> TSF does that
<abelli> come again: yebo ;)
<venda> gives tuxlabs to the schools
<venda> yebo = yes
<venda> woza = come
<venda> TSF has 80 tuxlabs
<abelli> wow..
<abelli> massive
<abelli> with ubuntu?
<venda> but computers are only cheap if you know where to get the parts and can build your own
<venda> dunno, I guess some with ubuntu
<venda> gotta read the tuxlabs manual
<venda> but its a brilliant project
<froud> http://www.tsf.org.za/index.php?option=content&task=blogsection&id=30
<froud> beats having MS Windoze in the classroom :-)
<abelli> just for it, how much is a ultra sparc 60 in SA?
<froud> no idea
<froud> as I said I build my own
<abelli> so you dont know where i could get it?
<froud> Hmm could look around
<froud> always got my ear to the ground
<abelli> do you have lots of railways there?
<abelli> ...sorry im too stupid..
<froud> but more to listen out for the Rhinosaurus
<froud> yes
<froud> and airplanes
<abelli> so you didnt get it.. ;)
<froud> Huh no
<froud> :-(
<abelli>  < froud> always got my ear to the ground
<abelli> 19:37 < abelli> do you have lots of railways there?
<abelli> 19:37 < abelli> ...sorry im too stupid..
<abelli> never mind..
<froud> <froud> but more to listen out for the Rhinosaurus
<froud> did you get it
<abelli> ahh...
<abelli> the problem is i didnt get yours
<abelli> can you xplain?
<froud> humour on irc dont work
<abelli> we should think about a more ubuntuist irc...
<froud> anyway if you know where to get your parts you can build cheap pc here
<abelli> ehehe
<abelli> ok. 
<froud> problem is not everyone knows how to assemble
<froud> just gotta know the hardware distributors
<abelli> so we/you can teach them.. with free assembling courses at cape town lug
<abelli> share the knowledge
<froud> and know when they are sitting on excess stock
<froud> share knowledge, no that would not be good
<froud> :-)
<abelli> you should share your opportunities.. :)
<froud> yes, how to make money from Linux
<froud> but for that you'll hav eto come to africa
<froud> Johannesburg is great thhis time of year
<abelli> yeah.. but who is gonna talk to mamma && papa'?
<abelli> :)
<froud> sunny mornings rainy afternoons
<abelli> and you should share your knowledge on how to build an hotspot... so that a group 
<froud> well, mamma will talk to pappa and pappa will talk to mamma
<abelli> of ppl will be able to share the expense of a dsl
<abelli> s/pappa/papa
<froud> hotspot, now the conversation is going below the belt :-)
<abelli> ehehe...
<abelli> yo..
<abelli> big ups to you..
<abelli> brotha
<froud> thanks
<froud> they are trying hotspots here
<abelli> thats a good one
<froud> dunno if they will work
<abelli> they who?
<froud> trying it in coffee shops
<abelli> telescum?:)
<froud> them too
<abelli> im talking about residential buildings' hotspots..
<froud> remember VoIP has only just been lgalized here
<abelli> legalized?
<abelli> was it illegal?
<froud> Hmm for that we have GPRS and 3G
<abelli> like marijuana?
<froud> yes, VoIP is just becomming legal
<abelli> ah.
<froud> well they cant make marijuanna legal
<froud> it grows like wild fire everywhere
<froud> got to be careful where you throw your pips :-)
<abelli> everybuddy jumping, you is jumping too... =)
<froud> especially this time of year
<abelli> what a wonderful place... even if i do not smoke..
<abelli> what about human rights...
<froud> dont do it either, but have plenty of freinds that do
<abelli> hows nelson?
<froud> like hey sweet man chill
<froud> nelson
<froud> Hmmm
<froud> still got great taste in shirts
<froud> btw do humans have rights
<froud> ?
<abelli> well no..
<froud> Hmmm intersting concept
<abelli> but its something that they told me at school
<froud> of course we have
<froud> sure and you belived them :-)
<abelli> yeah..
<froud> when you leave school you have to forget all you learned
<froud> and then you do it again at end of uni
<froud> and then you become a computer geek
<abelli> no.. im just working on this..
<abelli> i think i will never end up with uni..
<abelli> working is too hard..
<abelli> i wanna be a _researcher_
<froud> hehe, check this out http://www.transbuddha.com/mediaHolder.php?id=174
<abelli> froud: will you write a guide on rosetta for me?
<froud> sure, what's the bounty
<abelli> a nice french female cousin
<abelli> is her enough?
<froud> Hmm I got a Romanian/Israeli wife
<abelli> wow...
<abelli> i think she must very smart..
<froud> you think I   eed  french base too
<abelli> ..mmm you should try it..
<froud> did while I was living in Paris.
<abelli> just for IT, SHARING THE KNOWLEDGE, and CULTURE
<froud> eheh
<froud> send me a mail with the stuff you want for rosetta
<froud> btw give details about ESCROW so I am assured of payment
<froud> BTW sender pays
<froud> Hmmm, I wonder how the South African Revenue Services will tax this
<abelli> i think theyll be happy
<abelli> :)
<froud> Hmm what about immigration
<abelli> no.. no.. no..
<froud> our immigration department is so slow
<abelli> you receive the package.. get paid for your work, and you send back the package at your expense
<froud> it took them two years to give me my childrens birth certificates and ID documents when I returned to SA
<froud> abelli, and what if I get attached
<froud> send me photos of the french cousin
<froud> :-)
<abelli> well, have you ever seen the "iron mask"
<froud> no but I saw a chastity belt in a sex meuseum in prague once
<abelli> she's the director's wife, and appear for about 75 frames, 
<froud> will gave to get to the video store
<abelli> "she's looking from upstairs while the protagonist get beaten in a..."
<abelli> ...=pub
<froud> what are we talking about
<abelli> dunno
<froud> :-)
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-03
<venda> ChrisH, you up
<venda> darn I knew I should have written it down. Whats the URI for upgrade from warty to hoary
<venda> abelli, hi
<venda> sawubona
<abelli> sawubona
<abelli>  Hoe gaan dit?
<froud> enrico, hi
<enrico> hi froud!
<froud> finally got the vendor drop thing sorted
<froud> but needs upgrade of svn to 1.1.1 or 1.1.2
<froud> a combined use of symlinks
<froud> I can script the checkout from upstream GNOME etc
<froud> into vendor/gnome/current
<enrico> upgrade of svn? uhm... I wonder what version is in warty
<froud> and copy to vendor/gnome/2.8
<froud> then we have symlinks in trunk/ to the 2.8
<enrico> We're lucky if Elmo will eventually cooperate at all in this moving of the repository, I seriously doubt he'll want to install a specific version
<froud> well that is a problem
<froud> but I can now generate ubuntu cust docs for user man
<froud> so elmo must decide what he wants to do
<froud> btw what is the url for upgrade to hoary?
<froud> I want to do it via synaptic
<enrico> you just change "warty" with "hoary" in the APT sources
<froud> that's it
<froud> ok will try, but most of those are linked to archive
<froud> is hoary in archive 
<froud> my repos in synaptic points to archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu
<froud> so if I cange the distribution field to haory you think that's what will work
<froud> any issues with the upgrade?
<froud> and warty-security with hoary-security ?
<enrico> archive?  uhm, strange
* enrico checks
<froud> I am looking under synaptic : settings > repositories
<enrico> yes, sorry, it's archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu
<enrico> yes, just s/warty/hoary/g
<froud> ok so just change the distribution string
<froud> did you upgrade go ok?
<enrico> Seems to be, yes
<enrico> I did it with aptitude, but that shouldn't change much
<froud> I assume once I have done this that I will get online updates as they are released, though I wont know what candicate it is?
<froud> yes, i can do it via aptitude, but it does the same thing as synaptic
<enrico> yes, you'll get every new package developers will upload during the development phase
<froud> ok here goes
<enrico> you can check HoaryReleaseSchedule to see in which phase we are
<froud> reloadingpackage list
<venda> enrico, just mark all upgrades and GO!
<venda> ok, well here goes nothing :-)
<venda> enrico, so what about that SVN thing
<enrico> nothing?
<venda> yes venda is my crash and burn box
<venda> if I crash it does no damage
<venda> great for testing
<enrico> I run ubuntu under qemu :)
<venda> Hmm what's that give url
<venda> I hav eused VMware in some cases
<venda> but that costs
<enrico> apt-cache show qemu
<enrico> http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/qemu/
<enrico> It works really well
<venda> whew gnome is slow or what
<enrico> you mean, on qemu or in general?
<venda> nah just GNOME in general
<enrico> how much memory do you have?
<venda> and now I remember why I stick with KDE
<venda> on this box 768
<venda> p3 1 ghz
<venda> one of those celeron coppermine processors
* venda still likes kde configurability
<venda> so vendor drops
<venda> now I have the formula do you want to adopt it?
<enrico> Same as in my laptop.  Gnome's quite fast here
<enrico> actually, I'm centrino 1.6, but it shouldn't be that much of a difference
<venda> you worked on kde yet?
<enrico> Yes, I used KDE before
<venda> try it you'll feel the difference
<enrico> I don't really care about what desktop I use, actually: I mainly use terminals :)
<enrico> plus firefox and openoffice
<enrico> but I can code in gtk--, and cannot code in QT
<venda> yah terminals nice, but not for everyday user
<enrico> ehy, that's the everyday usage of this user on this computer :)
<venda> so what do you want to do about vendor drops
<enrico> When I give lessons to people, we use KDE or Gnome depending on "people"
<enrico> about vendor drops, the problem is having the right version on the new server.  That's nontrivial
<enrico> Elmo will probably want to have the version that is in Warty, because the servers run warty.  If he installs an arbitrary versions, then he has a nightmare tracking security updates and so on
<enrico> So, if warty has the right version, then that's cool.  Else, it's a problem
<venda> no warty does not
<enrico> does not what?
<venda> have the right version
<venda> dunno about hoary
<venda> I don't get it. Do people want to get docs and be able to take advantage of upstream or not?
<enrico> In that case, we might very well postpone customization of the Gnome User's Manual to after hoary came out
<enrico> Unless someone will solve the problem for us
<venda> sh1t
<venda> We are meant to be working on hoary
<venda> I give up
<enrico> I'm honestly bored with chasing elmo just for this simple migration.  I'd say that we write down what's needed to support the Gnome User's Manual, and either we'll have it, or we won't support it until we have it
<enrico> We are working on hoary, but the servers run warty
<enrico> You don't want to run an unstable distribution on your servers, don't you? :)
<enrico> venda: "never give up, never surrender!"
* enrico whips himself for the quotation
<venda> he can install svn 1.1.2 on warty
<venda> I really dont see the problem
<venda> this kind of crap from a sys admin
<venda> is not good
<venda> get a new sys admin
<enrico> well, for one thing noone still said "no" to installing 1.1.2 on canonical's servers (the reason being that noone has asked yet :)
<enrico> So, we can put down the list of requirements for supporting the GUM and see if they get met
<venda> I dont see how we can move forward at the pace required when  we have to deal with shit like this.
<venda> crikey this is a technology project
<venda> canonical either want to do it properly or just dont do it
<venda> we are not asking to bring god to earth
<venda> just move to canonical servers and when we do install svn 1.1.2
<venda> at the moment we are working on poor hornbecks machine
<enrico> I've been chasing Elmo for the last 2 weeks or so
<venda> since we dont have svn in canonical and we need to move why not just DO IT
<venda> perhaps a message to mark will do the rick
<enrico> I'm trying to getting past this issue without attacking people directly
<venda> I mean shiot ubuntu want free contibutions and have people who say yes they will
<venda> yet when they bring solutions, they cant do it
<venda> that's crap
<enrico> venda: cool down :)
<venda> i spent three days of my time to work it all out
<enrico> let's try to ask first :)
<venda> you did an you cant even get them to make the move
<enrico> I said I'm pessimist, but I didn't say we won't get it
<venda> really I am running out of patience
<enrico> well, so far I asked politely, but we have a deadline for the move, which is the end of january
<enrico> so, the more we get near the deadline, the less I'll be polite
<venda> end of january
<enrico> About the G.U.M.: to work on it we need vendor drops, and to have vendor drops working fine we need at least subversion 1.1.2.  Is that right?
<venda> you do know the hoary freeze is 21 Feb
<venda> As I said, my solution needs symlinks
<venda> that's only supported in 1.1.1 or 1.1.2
<enrico> Ok, so at least 1.1.1
<venda> cant see why not 1.1.2
<venda> you know what I franklly dont care anymore
<venda> just get somebody to do it
<enrico> It's goot to set a minimum requirement and an optimal requirement, just in case the optimal requirement turns out to have some problems
<venda> argh!! crap. you just set a requirement period
<venda> enough
<venda> I am not wasting my time
<ChrisH> The planet will probably not explode if we don't use vendor drops in Hoary already.
<enrico> ChrisH: I agree.  But I can understand froud's frustration after spending time investigating this
<ChrisH> Conclusion.... froud is investing too much time. :)
<abelli> ciao a tutti
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-04
<enrico> good morning!
<sm> morning enrico
<enrico> morning sm
<sivang> enrico: morning
<enrico> Thanks for fixing the AllPages thing.  I've always been wondering what was the purpose of that page :)
<sm> oh good
<sm> it always annoyed me
<enrico> I wonder how did it get there in the first place
<enrico> I've never done anything about it because I thought there was a reason
<sivang> enrico: what's up?
<enrico> sivang: hello!
<sivang> enrico: wow, that was slow! ;-)
<enrico> I was having lunch :)
<sm> night all
<enrico> sm: night!
<sivang> enrico: was it any good?
<enrico> burp!  YES!
<enrico> let's see if I can spell it
<enrico> we started with the rice bowl, which got some special pork sauce on top to make it interesting
<enrico> then, we had some chicken with chili and cucumber, nicely flavored with some herb
<enrico> really nice beef 
<enrico> then dumplings with white wine vegetable (it's a special vegetable here: like the green wine vegetable, but white)
<enrico> following, a really good hot-sour soup
<enrico> and to finish, a sweet soup with sticky rice balls and dragon eyes
<enrico> oh, and also red beans in the sweet soup
<enrico> Frout: guava and carambola and apple-plums (or plum-apples)
<enrico> s/frout/fruit/
<sivang> ahhhhh
<sivang> :)
* enrico goes out for a pearl tea
<Macbeth> Hey
<Macbeth> I am having a problem configuring network settings for ubuntu on my inspiron 8000 laptop. If anyone's not busy, perhaps they could help an ubunu newbie :)
<enrico> Uhm... the right channel for that is #ubuntu; if you ask here and you get an answer, then you must to write a wiki page about it :)
<Macbeth> Oh, thanks for the info. That helps too
<Macbeth> I'm sure i'd write a wiki page relaying the help I got
<enrico> Cool!!
<enrico> Have you tried asking #ubuntu already?
<Macbeth> I am asking right now
<Macbeth> they are saying "hmmm"
<Macbeth> Speaking of wiki
<Macbeth> I read somewhere that you should _NOT_ say "yes" to the question "do you want ubuntu to do automatic internet installation"
<Macbeth> Well, i said yes. before reading that.
<enrico> sivang: are you around?
<sivang> enrico: yep
<sivang> 'sup?
<enrico> sivang: Macbeth is asking things that I don't know how to answer, but I suspect you do
<enrico> sivang: and if we win this game, Macbeth will write a wiki page :)
<Macbeth> The wiki page will say how to get networking to work if I hot-plugged my PC lan card into my laptop after i did the installation of ubuntu?
<Macbeth> device manager says it is an unknown device. here are my card's drivers http://d-link.com/products/support.asp?pid=132&sec=0#drivers (but they are for windows)
* sivang is thinking 
<Macbeth> http://support.dlink.com/faq/view.asp?prod_id=1226&question=DFE-690TXD
<Macbeth> i found something
* enrico needs to leave now
<enrico> Does someone have a link to the Gnome User's Manual?
<enrico> Anyone around?
<enrico> I'm trying to understand if there is such a thing as the Gnome User's Manual or if it's just the collection of the documentation of the single applications
<enrico> jdub: you're probably the only one awake and in the list that can know this
<jdub> www.gnome.org/learn/
<enrico> jdub: thanks a lot.  I'm writing an answer to Sean in the list, and I need to check things twice
<jdub> i should read doc list, hey?
<enrico> jdub: probably not, unless you want a headache
<sivang> jdub: and a very strong one...;-/
<jdub> heh
<sivang> enrico: just read Sean's posts...Cannot cope with such bi amount of text!!!
<sivang> (unless it's gtk code)
<sivang> ;-)
<enrico> It
<enrico> It's not the text that is a problem, is the heat in the discussion
<enrico> (to me)
<enrico> I already have headaches in talking with the admins.  Having Sean shouting all the time doesn't really help me.
<enrico> Oh, well, I'll be on an airplane the next two days anyway
<ChrisH> enrico: Sounds you have long time not read debian-devel. :)
<enrico> jdub: another question: if we work on vendor drops of appname/C/help, do we clash with the arch import the devels are working on?
<enrico> that is, is that documentation also imported in hoary arch?
<enrico> ChrisH: you're right, I haven't~
<ChrisH> enrico: But it's true... I also needed a personal secretary to filter out important parts from -doc
<ChrisH> enrico: Looks like everyone else is just too slow for him.
<enrico> Ok, people.  Please someone check the last mail I sent to the list: it's short
<enrico> If that's true, we solved everything
<ChrisH> reading...
<ChrisH> We solved the redundant work double-write problem with the vendor drops which in turn require that we have a 1.1.2 subversion archive. That one?
<ChrisH> (from your report of the 23rd)
<enrico> No: a reply to the "Canonical are you serious?"
<enrico> I'll post a link to the archives
* enrico searches
<ChrisH> found it
<enrico> http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-January/001063.html
<enrico> jdub: could you please have a read at http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2005-January/001063.html ?
<enrico> jdub: if that is true, we solved all the problems
<ChrisH> enrico: didn't 
<enrico> ChrisH: didn't?
<ChrisH> enrico: didn't Sean say that symlinks are mandatory for having any kind of vendor drops?
<ChrisH> (the enter key was in the way :) )
<enrico> AFAIK that's required to pull in the docs from all the applications, then merge everything together
<enrico> But I may have gotten something wrong
<ChrisH> I'm confused, too. I thought it would be complicated enough already with SVN.
<sivang> I persoanlly don't have much problem to continue slow...take things one at the time,
<ChrisH> If I had no idea of vendor drops and didn't feel like writing huge workarounds I had probably just linked to the gnome user's manual instead of branding/using it
<sivang> let's even postpone stable docs for grumpy if canonical is busy with benefit bringing, more important stuff.
<sivang> I don't mind.
<enrico> ChrisH: the idea is that who wants to do it does it; the rest, can work on the QuickGuide (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepQuickGuide) or packaging the documentation or something simple like that
<sivang> maybe after hoary is out, we would get some more resources and attention from people currently too busy for this - and it's _perfectly understandable.
<sivang> as Matt noted on his email, a new project, invloves many operations, we cannot expect everything to be perfect without some pains ;-)
<ChrisH> enrico: I was stuck a little waiting for the vendor drops thingy being resolved or dropped. Perhaps I should rather commit to the other documents.
<ChrisH> sivang: especially if 1.1.1 is what we get then why don't we just use that...
<enrico> well, it would help if someone stepped up and said "ehi, I'm working on <x> and I'm happy, if we get <x> and <y> done we're lucky, let's think about that later"
<enrico> ChrisH: warty has 1.0.6
<ChrisH> enrico: oops
<enrico> Question is: who's active at the moment, and doing what?  I've been trying to push work on the QuickGuide but with no result (and I can't understand why).  Commits come from Sean and Plovs.  The only person with a clear responsibility is trickie working on the release notes
<enrico> How come noone's working at the QuickGuide?  Are there still problems?
<jdub> enrico: i don't quite get the question, but:
<jdub> - gnome cvs will be mirrored in arch
<jdub> - the right way to manage changes is to create a branch off those
<enrico> you mean a branch off the arch mirror?
<jdub> yes
<jdub> that's what arch is all about :)
<sivang> jdub: but svn and cvs also do branches right?
<enrico> So, if we want to fiddle with the documentation of the various applications, we need to branch off the development arch repo
<jdub> i guess i should get on -docs and sort this all out
<sivang> (what so special about it)
<enrico> jdub: that would help
<jdub> sivang: sure, but everything will be in arch
<enrico> is the Gnome User's Manual also in arch?
<sivang> jdub: ofcourse ;-)
<jdub> not yet
<enrico> s/Manual/Guide/
<enrico> jdub: ok, so we can make a vendor drop with the User's Guide and manage the rest (docs and manpages) in arch
<jdub> but we can prioritise it for you guys to test with
<enrico> jdub: cool.  This is what I was trying to say in that mail.  If you could step into it and confirm / clear things out, you'd do a really great thing
<enrico> like, really great.
<enrico> jdub: I was considering replying to myself posting these last 20 lines of log; if you're going to reply anyway, I won't do that
<jdub> not on the list yet, happy for you to do that
<enrico> jdub: I'll do it, then you see if you want to add something (please do)
<jdub> ok
<enrico> jdub: also, I'll post the log until "< enrico> jdub: ok, so we can make a vendor drop with the User's Guide and manage the
<enrico>                 rest (docs and manpages) in arch"
<enrico> since I imagine that you wrote "but we can prioritise it for you guys to test with" before I sent that line
<enrico> ChrisH, sivang: Do you have any idea why noone's working at the QuickGuide?
<ChrisH> enrico: You know my frequent complaints... I can hardly follow Sean...
<ChrisH> enrico: But currently I'm in bed with a flue and can't really do much that requires my brain. :)
<enrico> ChrisH: but Sean's not working at the QuickGuide at all.  That's been stabilized long ago: everything is known about it (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepQuickGuide), and nothing's going to change about how to edit it.
<enrico> ChrisH: ah, ok
<ChrisH> enrico: I'm trying to get myself back in and understand everything.
<enrico> ChrisH: when you get better, if you have nothing to do, you can have a look at that: it's the last main thing on our original list of things to do for Hoary
<ChrisH> enrico: so the quick guide has prio? no problem. I'll focus on that.
<enrico> That is: FAQGuide is finished and only needs packaging; About Ubuntu only needs a makefile target and Sean promised to do it; that's all we planned for Hoary...  Release notes are also taken care of.
<enrico> That, and the QuickGuide.  At least, that's what we thought at the BOF
<enrico> ChrisH: cool, thanks!
<enrico> I'll be on a plane for a couple of days and jetlagged the next day, so I'm trying to make sure that there are not big problems in what were the original goals set at the BOF
<sivang> enrico: I'll work with ChrisH to see what we can achive on that.
<sivang> enrico: FAQuide only needs pacakgin?
<sivang> enrico: and be registered under yelp?
<ChrisH> enrico: I thought that the UG needed to be finished in time, too
<sivang> (scorllkeeper)
<enrico> ChrisH: UG was not really on target AFAIK
<enrico> sivang: yes: FAQGuide, About ubuntu,  QuickGuide and release notes need packaging
<sivang> enrico: Ok, I might find some time to try and package those, after some refreshment for my omf and scrollkeeper knowledge.
<ChrisH> enrico: if I am still supposed to help doing the package I still need to get/research information about OMF and scrollkeeper
<ChrisH> sivang: :)
<enrico> sivang: for the build, have a look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamBuildingDocumentation
<enrico> sivang: there's a workaround for building in Hoary and Debian without having xsltproc try to download stuff from the net
<enrico> ChrisH: dh_installscrollkeeper
<enrico> ChrisH: and sivang knows everything about it :)
<sivang> hehe, ChrisH : almost :)
<enrico> ChrisH: sorry: dh_scrollkeeper
<enrico> dh_scrollkeeper and dh_installdocs
<ChrisH> sivang: you got the job, sir, welcome on board :)
<sivang> enrico: can't we build without downloading stuff from the net? a package building requiring stuff from the net doesn't sound all *too* good to me
<sivang> ChrisH: I need help in understanding paclkages, first, I have been unable to follow this until some days ago..so we can work together? O:-)
<enrico> sivang: sure we can: have a look at http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamBuildingDocumentation
<ChrisH> sivang: good
<sivang> enrico: hey, but it's under 15000 word doc..;-)
<enrico> sivang: yes, it's a short page!  And to the point!
<enrico> I think we recently did a really cool job in the wiki
<sivang> enrico: amazing, we've been lacking those in the short live of the docteam.
<sivang> enrico: could you ask Seam to keep it that way? People don't/cannot afford to time to read __long__ docs..
<sivang> it's unhealthy for the eyes :)
<enrico> sivang: I'm also very proud of http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DocteamStepByStepQuickGuide : have a look!
<enrico> sivang: I try to ensure that every page that comes out is short and to the point, and I must say that Sean did a pretty good job in most of those already
<enrico> And if you still see scary pages, mail me and I'll fix them
<sivang> enrico: ok, thanks :)
<sivang> I got scary by the new ,that kicked my pages, DocumentationTeam, and some child pages of it that were rewritten by sean :)
<sivang> it jumped from like 100wrds per page --> 1000 wrds per page..I'll mail you about those that still scare me, on the quick list:
<sivang> enrico: amazing
<sivang> enrico: you did a hell of a job, all the former scary pages are gone now.
<sivang> including the application exchange protocol ro something
<ChrisH> Yes, enrico has proven that a Wiki is not necessarily an eruption of information hell. :)
<sivang> I also liek that you removed the "there are several things and skills you must be proficient with before you can start working with the docteam"
<sivang> I am really glad to see that line vanished 
<sivang> I was starting to think I am not good enough for the docteam anymore...;-)
<sivang> I am sorry to abrupt like this, but I have held it for some time now...goot to let it go.
<sivang> and I also mean no offense to Sean, he has very good intentions, but the heat was too high.
<enrico> well, the cool news is that we seem to be getting on a nice track
<enrico> well, until last night :)
<enrico> But hopefully this last outburst is limited to Gnome things that one can choose not to hack on, and is going to be solved soon anyway
<sivang> actually I would be interested in hacking on the gnome manual, but then I'd have to get together with baz, which might not be that bad :)
<ChrisH> Sean qualifies for a DD. :) Technically brilliant... just that some other aspects may come short. :)
* sivang is getting close and intimate with the gnome community upstream.
<sivang> so working on the g-u-g would seem something appropriate, given the time and space :)
<enrico> let's see how that job turns out to be.  Sean has been really good in making complex tasks simple with really good quality (like the status tracking, or taking screenshots)
<enrico> So it's possible that once a way is settled with the rest of the developers, we can come out with a step by step guide that makes the thing manageable
<enrico> But that comes later.  For now, you're welcome to use the QuickGuide to jump back on the game!
* enrico needs to pack his things
<enrico> See you in a couple of days!
<sivang> enrico: bon voyage!
<ChrisH> enrico: good flights
<enrico> Thanks!!
<ChrisH> btw... if 1.1.1 is nice to have for vendor drops... why can't we continue to use John's server for the next half year and update it to 1.1.1?
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-05
<Kinnison> Morning
<enrico> Airport greetings
<ChrisH> enrico: couch greetings :)
<abelli> ciao
<abelli> Kinnison: ding
<Kinnison> abelli: dong
<abelli> Kinnison: did you rewrite the acpi ding dong?
<Kinnison> abelli: Somewhat yes :-)
* Kinnison will fix up fnfxd some time next week on his travels
<abelli> can you embbed a vocal commands driver? :)
<Kinnison> Yes; but it will only respond to commands in german spoken with a french accent by a lithe brazillian wombat on heat
<abelli> oki
<abelli> that's great.
<abelli> i think that just to remain into ubuntu, it should answer to fabbione's shoutings in afrikaans with romano accent
<Kinnison> Heh
<Kinnison> poor fabbione
#ubuntu-doc 2005-02-06
<Kinnison> Morning
<sivang> morning Kinnison :)
<abelli> sciao a tutti
<abelli> have you ever heard of deplate?
<abelli> http://deplate.sourceforge.net/
<abelli> Kinnison: $_
<Kinnison> abelli: @_[0,1] 
<abelli> nice..
<Kinnison> You're exceedingly odd
<abelli> class odd
<abelli>     def odd.andrea(amplitude)
<abelli>          odd.new(andrea, amplitude*google)
<abelli>      end
<Kinnison> what language is that?
<Kinnison> other than "wrong" ? :-P
<abelli> ta da da daaaaaaaaaaa... RUBY
<Kinnison> I see
<abelli> ...is python as powerful as brainfuc*?
<abelli> or better, is python turing compatible?
<Kinnison> Are you being silly?
<abelli> yes!
<abelli> and proud of it. =)
<Kinnison> I see
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-30
<theCore> hi LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> did you work on the guide ?
<LaserJock> yes a little bit, and I also got svn access so I can put stuff on the repo
<LaserJock> theCore: do you have a docteam repo checkout?
<theCore> yep
<theCore> why?
<LaserJock> I was thinking of committing the stuff I have, then you can work on it from the repo
<theCore> good idea, this way I will just need to send you the diff
<LaserJock> exactly
<LaserJock> how do you include <'s and >'s without docbook thinking it's a tag?
<theCore> &quote;
<theCore> sorry, this for "
<theCore> &laquo; and &raquo;
<theCore> or &gt; &lt; 
<LaserJock> thanks
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, I gotta get home but I'll be back on in a bit. I just commited what I have. Send me patches ;-)
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, I'm back
<theCore> ok, I got the update
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: ping
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: pong
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: commencing work on the desktop guide by installating flight 3 :)
<jsgotangco> nice
<jsgotangco> nobody really writes on that kubuntu doc anyhow, it would be nice to have someone do it
<jsgotangco> editing the existing docs alone take a lot of time
<robotgeek> apparently, the checkout brought me some kubuntu desktop guide file :)
<jsgotangco> well yes
<jsgotangco> there's already some part done by rob1
<jsgotangco> but apparently rob1 disappeared
<robotgeek> however, it has nothing 
<robotgeek> i am going to maintain the hierarchy of the Ubuntu Desktop Guide
<jsgotangco> if in doubt, consult Riddell
<jsgotangco> but don't duplicate current KDE docs
<robotgeek> hmm, yes
<robotgeek> okay, i'll get to work on it then. 
<jsgotangco> ok i
<jsgotangco> ok i'll go back to work :)
<LaserJock> so what is ok to work on in the Kubuntu docs? The Kubuntu Desktop Guide?
<robotgeek> yeah, i picked it up just now :)
<jsgotangco> yeah that's pretty much open territory
<jsgotangco> but any kubuntu doc can benefit contributions
<jsgotangco> like now i'm editing the quick guide
<LaserJock> ok, well if I have some time I might try to help out too
<LaserJock> but I'm getting spread pretty thin these days
<jsgotangco> i'm not sure if its possible to finish up the desktop guide nor am I ready to write a whole new doc that's why i started re-editing the quickguide
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: likewise :(
<robotgeek> i have lots of  free time, so i'm trying to help in all ways possible. 
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: i also write as a profession, so my day is pretty spread out, most of it thinking...
<jsgotangco> :(
<jsgotangco> i find solace with nintendogs though
<robotgeek> pet dogs? robotic?
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: its a popular sim for the nintendo DS
<robotgeek> i've been out of the loop for quite some while
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: well I am working on becoming a MOTU as well as running the MOTU Science team as well as write the Ubuntu Packaging Guide as well as get my PhD done
<LaserJock> but I know there are people much busier than me so I shouldn't complain
<jsgotangco> wow at least you have time to go to grad school :/
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i finished my Masters last month :)
<LaserJock> it's actually very cool that I have the change to contribute to Ubuntu
<LaserJock> robotgeek: what in? Robotics?
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: how is writing as a profession?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: actually, no. "Multifunctional Laparoscopic Tools"
<LaserJock> umm, yeah. and that is?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock: tiring but rewarding
<robotgeek> LaserJock: well, laparoscopy is generally a srugical operation in which they make holes in your abdomenal region, and perform surgery there
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: I'm not a writer by any stretch of the imagination, but I do like having documentation
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: are you a medical doctor?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: oh, yes now I see
<robotgeek> currenty tools are single use/single purpose only, the topic of my research was to design one which was could be used for multiple purposes
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: mechanical engineer
<jsgotangco> wow so engineers are the brainchild of those medical torture devices :/
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> joke
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I actually thought about doing medical engineering as an undergrad
<robotgeek> robotics is something i've always been interested in,and hence the nick
<robotgeek> LaserJock: physics now?
<robotgeek> or chem, IIRC
<LaserJock> robotgeek: my little brother just started college as a mechanical/electrical engineer but is interested in robotics
<LaserJock> Physical Chemistry so your kind right both times
<robotgeek> yeah, i am getting setup for a PhD in about 3 years time, lol
<LaserJock> I think I have 1 more year. I didn't get a Masters
<robotgeek> LaserJock: ah, where are you at?
<LaserJock> University of Nevada, Reno
<robotgeek> heh, how do you not gamble and study :)
<jsgotangco> how did you go to PhD without getting a masters?
<LaserJock> in Chemistry we don't have to get Master's we can go straight into PhD programs
<LaserJock> robotgeek: well, it's easy because I see all the tourists gamble away all there money and I don't feel the urge ;-)
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: most chemists get PhDs anyway so it cuts out a lot of duplicative work if you just do the PhD program directly from your Bachelors degree
<robotgeek> currently job hunting, so lots of free time 
<jsgotangco> ahhh
* jsgotangco would pick up poker some time
<LaserJock> some people like to just go and watch the poker games
<LaserJock> I find the casinos to be quite smoky though so I don't go to them except for the food :-)
<LaserJock> robotgeek: where are you located?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: right now Dallas,TX
<LaserJock> robotgeek: oh, cool. minghua is currently at Rice, he is on the MOTU Science team as well
<LaserJock> robotgeek: and tritium is our lone MOTU and he is at Sandia National Lab in NM
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i am at UT -Arlington though
<robotgeek> i missed meeting up with tritium my last visit to NM
<robotgeek> i want to pick up all the basic skills for MOTU stuff, finish with the packaging guide LaserJock :)
<robotgeek> j/k
<LaserJock> I'm getting there
<LaserJock> I really want it done but I seem to write too much
<robotgeek> i just need polish, so it's alrite
<LaserJock> I need to learn how to write docs properly
<robotgeek> LaserJock: will be useful for dissertation :)
<LaserJock> maybe
<LaserJock> I have a conference next week and I have to do the poster soon.
<robotgeek> damn, lotsa work
<LaserJock> sometimes I wish I could just ditch the PhD and work for Ubuntu
<robotgeek> i am just glad i got thru with my thesis writing, it was the most boring part
<LaserJock> what did you use to write it?
<robotgeek> latex
<jsgotangco> ever reliable
<LaserJock> yeah, that's what I use too
<robotgeek> though my prof was not very supportive
<LaserJock> really, my prof would only let me use latex
<robotgeek> the rest of the lab uses word, so he did not want to do something "funky"
<robotgeek> he would have to relearn it, so he was hesitant. 
<robotgeek> i just kept mailing him pdf's and it worked out fine
<robotgeek> i got thru the mechanical check in one shot, yay!
<LaserJock> My boss couldn't use Windows to save his life, although we are just getting iMacs so we might use Word more
<robotgeek> my thesis was written in Openoffice and Latex :)
<robotgeek> i used the WritertoLatex convertor, and that saved me a lot of time
<LaserJock> hmm, I use emacs ;-)
<robotgeek> it's really neat, you should check it out
<robotgeek> i use vim + latexsuite :)
<LaserJock> but now I'm getting an iMac and won't have my linux box at work :(
<robotgeek> emacs has a port, i guess
<theCore> LaserJock, emacs is installed by default on the Macs
<LaserJock> I use vim a lot too
<LaserJock> theCore: cool
<LaserJock> I'm really not satisfied by either emacs or vim at the moment
<robotgeek> LaserJock: why?
<LaserJock> I like a lot of how vim work but I like the "goodies" of emacs
<LaserJock> it's like gnome and kde for me as well
<LaserJock> I like the look and feel of gnome but I like the apps of kde
<robotgeek> yeah, i've got xubuntu running with kmail running :)
<LaserJock> so I end up installing gnome and kde and emacs and vim
<LaserJock> I started out on emacs because that is what my prof uses and he is the one who got me going on linux
<LaserJock> but it is huge and so I started looking into vim
<LaserJock> and I like it quite a bit so far
<robotgeek> i started out with emacs too, but got all foobarred with emacs keybindings on the mac. 
<robotgeek> i learnt vim, and have not looked back
<LaserJock> I like it too but I wish it had some debian tools (debian-el, dpkg-dev-el, and devscripts-el are great for packagers) and the spell checking was kinda hard to get going
<robotgeek> hmm, what do they do?
<LaserJock> they are modes for the Debian bug system (so you can send bugs from emacs) and syntax hilighting for package files (changelogs, control files, etc.)
<LaserJock> I haven't used them much but I think it even has a pbuilder mode
<robotgeek> i get that in vim 
<LaserJock> robotgeek: well, I'm not saying it can't be done in vim, I just don't know how ;-)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: no, i mean i got it out of the box
<LaserJock> robotgeek: what?
<robotgeek> the syntax highlighting
<LaserJock> for packaging files?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: yes, did you enable filetype plugin on filetype on filetype indent on in your .vimrc ?
<LaserJock> yeah, I think so. Let me try it out
<robotgeek> LaserJock: take a look at http://robotgeek.org/dotfiles/vimrc
<theCore> LaserJock, check my .vimrc file http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/7598
<theCore> LaserJock, I got syntax highlighting for all files
* robotgeek also sneaks a peek
<theCore> except plain text
<theCore> I got from the vim docs
<theCore> I got it*
<theCore> LaserJock, you can start syntax highlighting by hand too
* robotgeek refers LaserJock to VimHowto :)
<theCore> from vim command line enter: `syntax on'
<LaserJock> ok, just a sec guys. I have syntax hilighting on, I just didn't think it would hilight changelogs, etc.
<LaserJock> hot dog, it does highlight them
<robotgeek> also indents and stuff. make sure you don't have expand tab set while editing the "rules" file
<LaserJock> yeah, I think I turned that off for python too
<robotgeek> i have that set in python
<robotgeek> the next great debate, "tabs vs spaces", lol
<LaserJock> I do tabs
<LaserJock> ok, my current .vimrc is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/7599
<theCore> lol, I like the " fix spelling retardation" section
<LaserJock> I just picke it up of a web page somewhere and thought it was a good idea
* robotgeek has saved the vimrc for reference :)
* theCore has saved it too
<LaserJock> I just threw a bunch of stuff in I found on the internet and commented out the stuff I didn't like
<robotgeek> any good plugins for vim, other than the xml edit plugin for docbook stuff?
<LaserJock> well, I've tried different spelling plugins, with varying success
<LaserJock> I've also got a calendar plugin and a svn plugin, I think
<robotgeek> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7737 i found this, but can't download the plugins
<robotgeek> hmm, anyways. back to work now, later
<LaserJock> me too
<LaserJock> robotgeek_away: what is :%s/ for?
<LaserJock> theCore: have you had a chance to look at the packaging guide?
<theCore> LaserJock, yes, why did you fragmented the GNU Licence in the main page ?
<LaserJock> I didn't, it's the standard GPL of the doc team
<LaserJock> I just used an include
<theCore> really ? if so, it ugly
<theCore> s/it/it's/
<LaserJock> well, the docteam doesn't use GPL so maybe we might work on that
<robotgeek> LaserJock: the %s thing is to replace all the dos chracters
<LaserJock> robotgeek: oh, thanks.
<robotgeek> the weird 
<robotgeek> the 
<robotgeek> sorry
<LaserJock> if I edit something in vim in Windows will I get those?
<robotgeek> possibly, but it's easy to remove
<theCore> LaserJock, DOS put two character at the end of each lines (I think it's \r\n) , *NIX OSes use only the newline ( \n ) character to end lines
<LaserJock> hmm, cause I was thinking of editing some stuff on Windows and but I don't wan to commit them if they are going to have weird characters at the end
<theCore> LaserJock, I like your the source packages section you added into the guide
<LaserJock> we need to flesh it out a bit but it seems to come up now and then about how packagers really work with the source packages
<mpt> LaserJock, most moderate- to high-powered editors on Windows let you choose the line endings for a particular file
<LaserJock> mpt: oh, ok. good to know
<LaserJock> I have a repo checkout on my Windows laptop that I usually use at home and now that I can commit I was thinking of using it but I don't want to put a bunch of stupid stuff at the ends of the lines
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, ya, don't
<Burgundavia> anybody looking for some wiki work todo?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: sorry, I'm working on the packaging guide as we speak
<Burgundavia> I am cleaning out my todo list and being ruthless about which I realistically don't have time todo
<LaserJock> ohh, I hate doing that
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: maybe
<Burgundavia> yes, because it involves so many broken dreams
<Burgundavia> "I wanted to do that!"
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, it involves parsing one email and feeding changes to a specific wiki page
<robotgeek> okay, sounds doable. details
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, can I forward you the email?
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: sure
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, thanks a lot. Didn't want to drop it on the floor
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: u know my email?
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, venkatraghavan@gmail.com ?
<robotgeek> yup
<Burgundavia> yay, under 50 things todo
<Burgundavia> salut bshumate 
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: got it, Subject: HowTo restore GRUB with install CD
<robotgeek> is that the right thing?
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, indeed
<robotgeek> i will take care of it then, all i have to do is cut paste, mostly
<robotgeek> later then, i gotta run
<LaserJock> is linux generally capitalized?
<mpt> LaserJock, yes
<mpt> it's a proper noun
<LaserJock> k, thanks
<LaserJock> in general how do you guys figure out how much material you shoudl commit to the repo at one time?
<mdke> Burgundavia, of course attachments aren't page specific in Moin, it's not _that_ stupid
<mdke> robotgeek_away, the idea was for the kubuntu desktop guide to use the Ubuntu desktop guide. but that isn't really ready yet. Best to talk to jjesse
<Burgundavia> mdke, hmm, ok I was mistaken. So it rises from chimp to that of great ape
<mdke> a chimp is an ape
<Burgundavia> anyway, you get what i mean
<Burgundavia> bloody english, getting up early
<Burgundavia> :)
<mdke> :)
<mdke> it was a struggle...
<mdke> hello Que_Pasa, que pasa
<jsgotangco> :P
<Burgundavia> mdke, the caveat with attaching images from other icons if you have to know where they are attached to, that is ugh
<Burgundavia> s/icons/pages
<Burgundavia> anyway, night all
<robotgeek> mdke: hmm, i can atleast borrow the structure :)
<mdke> robotgeek, hopefully much of the content too
<robotgeek> stuff like java,etc should remain the same. Stuff like sound/internet will change
<robotgeek> we'll see :)
<mdke> yep
<robotgeek> neways, just popped in to check the action, gotta sleep now
<mdke> robotgeek, and if you see some problems with it, feel free to give us a patch on that too :)
<mdke> night
<jsgotangco> mmm?
<robotgeek> mdke: sure, will do. i just got vim setup to do docbook stuff
<robotgeek> hey jsgotangco , just heading out. 
<jsgotangco> night robotgeek 
<ompaul> Burgwork, if one did not do rm -rf a part of their machine that was important they might have done something on boot options yesterday - today I am busy but should get to it before weekend
<Burgwork> hmm, digg is linking to FirefoxNewVersion
<mgalvin> hmm :-/
<Burgwork> no is good
<Burgwork> interesting ad at the bottom of a newsforge article. "Ubuntu vs Xandros 3", paid for by Xandros
<jjesse> i saw that ad @ kubntuforums.net yesterday
<Burgwork> lovely
<Burgwork> funny that they are worried about us though, given their focus is very much in business
<Burgwork> but I guess we threaten them in the education market
#ubuntu-doc 2006-01-31
<Burgwork> oh, joy now automatix is on the front page of digg
<robotgeek> Burgwork: oh noes
<Burgwork> meh, Ubuntu is pretty much on digg at least twice a day currently
<robotgeek> now i have to go there and tell the people about the evils of automatix
<robotgeek> Burgwork: i created an account and posted there,lol. i generally only do slashdot
<Burgwork> http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/01/25/army.study.ap/index.html <-- take  look at the guy in the middle of hte picture, next to the black chick
<robotgeek> lol
<robotgeek> anyways, back to "real" work. i will get to the wiki things later in the night, Burgwork 
<jsgotangco> Burgwork: do you know any good mediawiki skins?
<Burgwork> jsgotangco, the novell people have nice ones, but no idea as to the license
<jsgotangco> ahh
<Liz> hello all
<Burgwork> long time, no see Liz 
<Liz> xmas holidays..gotta hate them.. :/
<Liz> plus ive been busy packing
<Liz> its good to see you again Burgwork 
<jsgotangco> Liz: are you back home?
<Liz> not yet..we dont leave here for another 3 weeks yet..
<Burgwork> where are you moving to?
<Liz> new zealand
<Liz> so im going to be offline till my pc arrives..and we get internet access there
<tehwa> Quick question, is there currently any support from documentation writers to modify the current Documentation of Applications such as gnomebaker on Ubuntu to be targeted towards ubuntu users specifically?
<tehwa> That is for example, to modify the way that gnomebaker is started in the docs (command line: gnomebaker) to ubuntu style (Applications,Soundand Video, gnomebaker)
<tehwa> is there any way that these docs could have a seperate version for inclusion in an Ubuntu release?
<LaserJock> I don't think there is support for that now. I think the best we have is the Desktop Starter Guide
<tehwa> ah, ok
<LaserJock> but we don't change the documentation that comes with apps
<LaserJock> that I know of anyway
<jsgotangco> that's upstream work
<tehwa> understood
<jsgotangco> even the gnome user guide doesn't delve on specific apps
<robotgeek> hey Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi robotgeek - what's up?
<robotgeek> Madpilot: nothing much, drunk after quite a while :)
<Madpilot> heh. I'm on ASA for a headache, can't drink this evening :(
<robotgeek> ASA?
<Madpilot> painkiller drug - like Asprin
<robotgeek> ah, okay
<Madpilot> can't remember the actual long name
<robotgeek> what's up with Digg doing lame stories like "How to install Firefox 1.5 on Ubuntu" with a link to Ubuntu's wiki page on Firefox 1.5?
<Madpilot> could this be because Digg sucks? :P
<robotgeek> yeah, i prefer slash. today they also had an article linking to Autoatix
<mpt> and it's ok if "slash" does it and not if Digg does?
<Madpilot> I've never been a fan of Digg, and I only go to /. sporadically
<Madpilot>  /. is only worth reading for the (+5 Funny) comments
<robotgeek> i go to slash daily, mostly for the comments 
<mpt> If tips and tricks for Ubuntu are being front-paged on a site that's hardly even geeky, that's excellent news IMO
<Madpilot> Digg is still fairly geeky
<robotgeek> i don't get it at all, it's there for the taking on the Ubuntu wiki, a Ubuntu documentation specific site. PPl who are going to post there are going to be ppl who have used the wiki, anyways i think
<mpt> In contrast a much more interesting story about Red Hat has been submitted six times in the past three days, and hasn't reached nearly the same level of popularity
<mpt> It just shows that (a) Ubuntu is popular, and (b) it's not keeping as up-to-date as many people want
<robotgeek> true, but that's the deal you get with Ubuntu. You have the backports or so if you want to try the bleeding edge stuff. Or install Dapper
<mpt> Saying "that's the deal you get" doesn't change what people want :-)
<mpt> Anyway, I've been to the forums about twice in the past year
<mpt> and it wouldn't surprise me if many people who frequent the forums don't know the wiki well
<robotgeek> i go there everyday. i have filtered out the Community talk forums. Also, i find it difficult to use the forum markup, but that doesn't stop me from helping people.
<robotgeek> people ask the same questions over and over again, i just point them to the wiki
<robotgeek> they have some nice threads there, but i don't get to lean much there :(
<robotgeek> learn, err
<robotgeek> hey Madpilot , did you ask a question on the forums? :) if so, use dhclient
<Madpilot> the IP release/renew question? that was me
<Madpilot> thanks, I'll look at dhclient
<robotgeek> ifup and ifdown rely on /etc/network/interfaces, not so using dhclient
* robotgeek can't believe that the forums are easier to navigate than the wiki
* robotgeek believes the wiki is much easier :). /me will stop talking now :)
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia 
<robotgeek> hey Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> salut robotgeek Madpilot 
<mdke> Burgundavia, did you see my attempt at putting the faqguide on the wiki?
<Burgundavia> mdke, nope
<mdke> http://help.ubuntu.com/wiki/FaqGuide2
<mdke> it needs some work ;)
<Burgundavia> yes, but a good start
<Burgundavia> my thought would be each major section could a page
<jsgotangco> :/
<Burgundavia> subpage, with the section name as the page name
<mdke> Burgundavia, i don't see how you can do that
<mdke> not as html
<mdke> the interlinks won't work
<mdke> i would have thought the page theming can be cleared up, but I can't see anything but single-page only working
<Burgundavia> I am certain we could build a script to do it, but it is not worth it for the first pass at least
<mdke> oh shit I know why the theming is all screwed up
<mdke> it's using the wiki css _and_ the faqguide css
<mdke> that should be quite easy to fix
<jjesse> morning jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> jjesse: hey
<jjesse> i didn't like how that switching guide i wrote looked so i'm totally re-writing it, don't even know if we can use it but thought what the hey...
<jsgotangco> jjesse: hmmm does riddell apply some more css to the html when done?
<jjesse> jsgotangco: usually he has the super secret kubuntu css or something like that so it looks like releasenotes
<jsgotangco> jjesse: we can always release a doc even after release anyways
<jsgotangco> switching guide = migration?
<jjesse> yeah switching your friend from windows to kubuntu
<jsgotangco> mmm our svn is still big :/
* jsgotangco is in a fresh dapper install
<jsgotangco> but it seems our kubuntu dapper has *serious* networking issues
<jjesse> riddell found a website that had the guide on and got permission to use it in the docs, but i've made a ton of changes from what is on the webiste
* robotgeek is upgrading right now, hope everything works out
<jsgotangco> sure it does
<jsgotangco> but kcontrol doesn't even remember the network settings :/
<jjesse> robotgeek: go really crazy and put kde 3.5.1 on it
<jsgotangco> its really irrittating
<robotgeek> jjesse: just updating dapper won't give me that?
<jjesse> jsgotangco: i'm using vmplayer per the doc mgalvin put together to run my dapper install
<jjesse> robotgeek: nope need to add the repository for it
<jjesse> http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/kde351-dapper-testing/
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: nope
<jsgotangco> we're sticking to 3.5
<robotgeek> jjesse: i am only updating for the guide, so i think i'll pass :)
<robotgeek> if 3.5.1 is going to be on the final dapper, i will upgrade, else no
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: i don't think so, we're already UVF
<jsgotangco> unless we get some stroke of sabdfl push :)
<jjesse> jsgotangco: i think riddell just want some feedback on it
<jjesse> so i'm helping him out
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: hmm, okay. i also have to purge .kde 
<jsgotangco> 3.5.1?
<jsgotangco> jjesse: i can afford to break this machine just in case
<robotgeek> jjesse: i'm going to be putting dapper on a usb this weekend, i'll upgrade to 3.5.1 on that one
<robotgeek> maybe i should also help out with the laptop testing report
<robotgeek> nice, Kubuntu on dapper is noob-friendly!
<robotgeek> i file dapper bugs on malone, right
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: i'm grabbing kde 3.5.1 now
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: nice. looks like i am going to have to file a bug on the "NetworkSettings" screen, i can't click the administrator buttong
<robotgeek> i'm filling out a laptoptesting report right now
<jsgotangco> robotgeek: dapper?
<robotgeek> both breezy and dapper, since i have both installed
<jjesse> ok back from giving blood
<robotgeek> damn, the kde-systemsettings bug almost makes it impossible to do gui anything. 
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> i've been busy doing LaptopTesting and reporting bugs
<LaserJock> coo;
<LaserJock> cool, I mean :-)
<mdke> evening all
<LaserJock> hi mdke 
<mdke> y0
<LaserJock> how's it going?
<mdke> well, you?
<LaserJock> alright, busy though
<mdke> me too, in a good kinda way
<LaserJock> I'm working on the packaging guide but real life is busy as well
<mdke> i saw a fat commit from you :)
<mdke> i even blogged about you and the packaging guide
<LaserJock> oh no
<LaserJock> where?
<mdke> heh
<mdke> its on planet
<LaserJock> oh cool
<LaserJock> It wasn't ready for planet but I'll hopefully get it up to speed
<mdke> course its ready
<mdke> people can help if they like :)
<LaserJock> well, that is why I committed it
<LaserJock> I really don't want it to be just my project. I want to get lots of people involved
<mdke> that's cool
<mdke> motu can chip in, thecore is helping
<LaserJock> yeah, that's my hope
<LaserJock> MOTU is getting some good wiki material that I hope to incorporate into the packaging guide
<mdke> oh good
<mdke> looks like we might have a new contributors on the desktopguide too, I hope so
<LaserJock> I think we have a decent chance of making the Ubuntu Packaging Guide  the best .deb packaging resource available out there
<mdke> wow
<mdke> that would be SERIOUSLY cool
<LaserJock> I mean, I've been asking MOTUs and others for their packaging resources and trying to incorporate the info in a hopefully easy and example based guide
<LaserJock> that is my hope anyway
<LaserJock> but it is a *lot* of work
<Burgwork> LaserJock, example based is good. I have beat my head against the new maintainers guide enough
* mdke nods
* robotgeek will be needing the packaging guide in a while
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, I'm trying to go beyond the NMG but without dumbing it down so that it is useless. In the beginning I think it might look overwhelming.
<LaserJock> I am trying to put as much material as I can in, and then we can weed out stuff we don't need
<Burgwork> LaserJock,  good example would be adding a .desktop file
<LaserJock> Burgwork: good idea, I'm also collecting a "common mistakes" section
<Burgwork> LaserJock, another would be a basic python program
<robotgeek> LaserJock: also about dependencies, do we put in the highest dependencies for a program?
<LaserJock> I'm hoping once I get the ball rolling we can add more and more material
<Burgwork> is it just me, or there about 19 different ways to package for .deb?
<robotgeek> :)
<LaserJock> exactly
<LaserJock> that is one of the biggest problems I face
<LaserJock> there is no *single* way to package
<Burgwork> editing any package that already exists means that you need to know each way
<Burgwork> and it means you cnanot look at a number of packages to get examples
<LaserJock> exactly, that's why I'm setting up different scenarios that show each of the major ways 
<Burgwork> are rpms easier to create?
<LaserJock> I think they are but I've never tries
<LaserJock> s/tries/tried
<Burgwork> I think some people in debian that the fact that it is harder to package for .deb is a good thing, because it means you get higher quality packages, because it weeds out the stupid people
<LaserJock> another problem for me right now is that sometime (hopefully for Dapper) Diziet will have a Ubuntu Developer's Reference that is based on the Debian Developer's Reference
<LaserJock> Burgwork: well, it's not easy for sure, but if you have patience I think it is worth while
<Burgwork> I don;t think I am dumb person, but .deb packaging has me totally stumped
<LaserJock> I'm fairly new  to packaging myself
<LaserJock> in the beginning it is very confusing
<LaserJock> partially because there is no one way to do any task
<robotgeek> i'm going through each chapter of DNMG right now :)
<LaserJock> and partially because the documentation is scattered and abstract
<robotgeek> there is no shorcut out, heh
<LaserJock> I (and other's I have talked to) found the Appedicies of the DNMG to be the most helpful
<LaserJock> and that isn't the way a Guide should be
<LaserJock> Now as I'm trying to write a Packaging Guide, I can see where they were coming from. There is so much to learn, how do you be complete without overwhelming the reader.
<LaserJock> what I'm shooting for is to use an incremental approach with specific targeted examples.
<LaserJock> I'm not sure how realistic that is, but  I think it's worth a shot
<robotgeek> i think that would be great, some hand holding would help, i think :)
<robotgeek> i think i picked a pretty tough package for my first attempt, i think it will help
<LaserJock> robotgeek: yes, you did pick a tough one
<LaserJock> robotgeek: I actually started out by patching packages that already existed. I saw how other people packaged.
<mdke> LaserJock, how is diziet's guide going to be a problem?
<robotgeek> i don't have to turn it in tommorow. the whole of MOTU will be busy right now, i guess
<LaserJock> mdke: the problem is that his doc is a reference, and mine is a guide but there is a fair amount of grey area
<mdke> hmm
<robotgeek> LaserJock: Universe Packages aren't affected by the feature freeze, or are they?
<mdke> did you talk to him?
<LaserJock> mdke: he hasn't started on the Ubuntu Developer's Reference so I really don't know how far into the reference arena I should go
<mdke> robotgeek, don't forget the docs :(
<LaserJock> mdke: I talked to him a little bit but his is much to busy with other things
<robotgeek> mdke: no, it's just 5 packages. i'm not going anywhere
<mdke> :)
<mdke> LaserJock, don't give up on talking to him tho
<robotgeek> mdke: plus, i got dapper installed today. hopefully, i shud be churning stuff out by the end of the week
<mdke> yay
<LaserJock> robotgeek: for Dapper, Universe is bound to the same timeline as Main so UVF and FF are the same
<robotgeek> LaserJock: so it's kind of useless for me to build these packages right away?
<LaserJock> robotgeek: you can get them in up until Feature Freeze
<robotgeek> i tht that was done already?
<LaserJock> no that was Upstream Version Freeze
<LaserJock> FF is ~ Feb 23rd
<robotgeek> okay, i better hurry :)
<mdke> LaserJock, do you want someone else to speak to him about it?
<LaserJock> but you can get them into Debian at any time and we will just get them into Dapper+1 if you aren't fast enough ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: I don't know that it's a big deal at this point. I mean, if I go too far into the Reference area he can just take my material
<mdke> alrighty
<robotgeek> i think i'll manage to build one of these beasts today. i just need to check up on the depends correctly. they have very decent configures, so i don't think i will have to do too much
<LaserJock> mdke: that is a big reason why we need the packaging guide to be GPL
<LaserJock> mdke: all the Debian developer docs are GPL and the Ubuntu Developer's Reference will be GPL as well
<mdke> yah
<mdke> no problem
<LaserJock> I've been watching the Dapper Development Status reports on ubuntu-devel-announce and it has a listing of all the spec's and there status
<LaserJock> and so under Diziet it has the status of the UDR
<LaserJock> and so far every week it just says "Not started yet"
<mdke> yeah
<LaserJock> I offered once to help but I might bug him again shortly
<mdke> okies
<LaserJock> but our TZs don't work well ;-)
<mdke> ok
<mdke> i'm in his timezone, so if you want me to have a word, say so
<LaserJock> ok thanks
<LaserJock> once I get something real maybe I'll have him take a look
<mdke> cool
<LaserJock> but it is quite hard to have a guide withough tons of reference material, I'm still not sure how to structure that
<LaserJock> however, right now I'm just trying to get as much material as I can. It's easier to weed stuff out and rearrange later
<mdke> ok
<mdke> you think you'll have it ready-ish for dapper?
<LaserJock> I am totally committed to having a workable packaging guide for dapper
<mdke> that would rock
<LaserJock> It might not have as much as I want but I think it should be done in the sense that it isn't missing parts
<LaserJock> I see this as an ongoing project but I think we should have the basics for dapper
<LaserJock> but that said, I've never done anything like this before so I could be totally wrong ;-) but I don't think so
<mdke> sounds all good to me
<mdke> who knows how to subscribe to multiple pages in Moin with a wildcard?
<LaserJock> I do it for MOTU
<LaserJock> do .*
<Madpilot> * is the standard wildcard, isn't it?
<LaserJock> like I do MOTU.*
<Madpilot> if you're really brave/insane you can just put * in your Subscribe field, and get the whole damn wiki... :P
<mdke> I tried DocumentationTeam/*, you think DocumentationTeam/.* will work?
<LaserJock> yeah
<Burgwork> robotgeek, ping
<LaserJock> I think something changed at some point, I used to just use * but then it stopped working and I had to use .* (which is what a regexp whould look like, I think)
<robotgeek> hey Burgwork 
<Burgwork> robotgeek, did you not work on WifiDocs?
<robotgeek> Burgwork: no, still working offline on the ndiswrapper stuff
<Burgwork> robotgeek, someone nuked with WifiDocs page
<robotgeek> Burgwork: hmm, like what? 
<Madpilot> Burgwork: no they didn't - they nuked WiFiDocs - note difference in capitaliztion
<Burgwork> Madpilot, ah
<Burgwork> grumble
<robotgeek> Burgwork: scared me for a moment :)
<Burgwork> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WiFiBroadcomDriver <-- more useless crap, grumble some more
* Burgwork is a cheery mood today
<mdke> robotgeek, you can always restore nuked pages
<robotgeek> lol, Waiting for JackDog
<robotgeek> mdke: yeah, i tht i messed up along the way somewhere :)
<mdke> btw I don't like the name WifiDocs
<mdke> something without Docs in the title would be nice, iMO
<Madpilot> WiFiHowto?
<robotgeek> heh, i asked around the other night. 
<robotgeek> Madpilot: WiFiHowto is already a Howto :)
<mdke> "Wireless"
<Burgwork> WirelessHowto
<mdke> Howto is kinda as bad as Docs, I reckon
<mdke> actually, no not as bad
<robotgeek> *sniff*
<mdke> lol
<Burgwork> robotgeek, that involves a lot of moving for you
<Burgwork> ;)
<mdke> so Burgwork, how many documentation pages are there which aren't tagged with CategoryDocumentation, do you think?
<robotgeek> Burgwork: if i redirect the main page, it won't do the subpages?
<mdke> robotgeek, no
<robotgeek> oh noes
<Burgwork> mdke, very few. search for -redirect -categorydocumentation in text search
<mdke> Burgwork, that's good news
<Burgwork> mdke, and -category
<mdke> perhaps the script option is a good one for BetterWikiDocs
<Burgwork> mdke, I am certain we can use a script
<mdke> i mean for moving the pages
<Burgwork> yes, so did I
<mdke> ah
<Burgwork> sweet, when at help.ubuntu.com, we can actually have useful categories
<mdke> yes
<mdke> we can discuss those later along the line
* Burgwork starts dancing with joy
<mdke> the moin 1.5 WYSIWYG editor is quite nice, be cool if we can get them to upgrade
<Burgwork> I wasn't much of a fan, but hey, to each there own
<Burgwork> at least it exists
<Burgwork> mdke, what do you think about adding a Help tab to the main ubuntu site?
<mdke> you mean rename "support"?
<Burgwork> that might work
<Burgwork> but support is slightly different than help
<Burgwork> http://www.subuntu.com/subuntu.shtml <-- hmm
<Burgwork> http://digg.com/linux_unix/Using_Ubuntu_to_help_Detroit_youth <-- part of my evil plan to bring even more Ubuntu to digg
<robotgeek> well, i gotta go to to heaven on earth, Fry's. Cya all later
<Burgwork> robotgeek_away, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PageHits <-- WiFi howto is already number 7 in popularity
<Burgwork> s/7/15
<mdke> gah why the hell is StartSeite number 5
<mdke> oh it's not a moin page, it's an Ubuntu localised page, nice
<Burgwork> mdke, will we be able to nuke that Help stuff that moin spews into the main namespace?
<Burgwork> mdke, and there is a hack to allow for userpages on a differnt wiki, thoughts?
<mdke> Burgwork, all pages can be nuked
<mdke> userpages can stay on the main wiki i think
<mdke> otherwise it will get complicated
<Burgwork> ok, glad we agree on this
<mdke> while I like the idea of having a separate one, it will confuse the users i think
<Burgwork> mdke, I mean the main wiki, not a seperate one
<mdke> oh
<Burgwork> i wish moin had more robust communication tools
<mdke> interwiki works
<mdke> http://wiki.ubuntu-it.org/MatthewEast
<mdke> (bottom section)
<mdke> or #REDIRECT
<Burgwork> yep, I see that
<mdke> #REFRESH i mean
<Burgwork> mdke, I have controversational suggestion for once we switch
<Burgwork> mdke, lets jump to mediawiki style markup
* Burgwork also wants to drop camelcase and freelinking, but that is another fight to be fought
<LaserJock> ffewww, I made my commit for the day :-)
<Burgwork> LaserJock, my suggestion, make smaller commits. It makes them easier to rollback, etc. if something breaks between one commit and the nexty
<crimsun> lots of small commits == good
<LaserJock> Burgwork: yeah, I've been trying to figure out what the best size is.
<LaserJock> I'm very new to revision control
<Burgwork> LaserJock, each commit should have a complete edit in it, but not much more
<Burgwork> LaserJock, it should always work between commits
<LaserJock> well, the problem right now is that I'm trying to commit by section and since I'm writing it from scratch basically the commits are big
<LaserJock> maybe I should commit by subsection
<LaserJock> ;-)
<LaserJock> crimsun: btw, It would be reallly nice if you could look over the packaging guide sometime
<crimsun> LaserJock: url?
<crimsun> (sorry, lazy/meeting)
<LaserJock> its in the doc team repo generic/packagingguide/C/
<LaserJock> and its on doc.ubuntu.com but that takes some time to update
<crimsun> ok, I'll look in the repo
<LaserJock> crimsun: thanks
<LaserJock> mdke: btw is it ok to change the GPL license XML?
<LaserJock> mdke: the structure makes the HTML look bad
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-01
<robotgeek> i gotta reboot and try out my new USB 2.0 card, brb 
<robotgeek> yup, it works
<jsgotangco> good morning
<robotgeek> it's evening here, but morning jsgotangco 
<LaserJock> morning jsgotangco, evening robotgeek. It's afternoon here ;-)
<jsgotangco> heh
<LaserJock> umm, any kubuntu docs people about?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<robotgeek> yeah, i'm just starting out, if that counts
<jsgotangco> me for instance :)
<LaserJock> so will the generic docs show up in the KDE help?
<jsgotangco> you mean generic upstream?
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> I was actually thinking of the Packaging Guide 
<jsgotangco> we can include that of course
<jsgotangco> on KHelpCenter, we get a separate folder that contains all Kubuntu docs
<jsgotangco> and we can put a hotlink from Konqueror
<jsgotangco> on the frontpage
<LaserJock> hmm, so would the packaging guide have to be built in the kubuntu makefile?
<LaserJock> right now it is only done in the ubuntu makefile, I think
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, i don't know i think its best to consult Riddell about it
<LaserJock> oh, ok
<LaserJock> I just don't want the packaging guide for Ubuntu users and not for Kubuntu
<jsgotangco> that would be nice
<LaserJock> since it is "generic" ;-)
<jsgotangco> kde docs are always html btw
<robotgeek> LaserJock: did mention that one of the programs is being a PITA
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ?
<jsgotangco> LaserJock, we can ask Riddell to upload the packaging guide as well
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: fine, I was just in KDE and noticed it wasn't there and got to thinking...
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i was trying to get player2.0 compiled, but it's got a lot of bugs, i think. it won't compile without tweaking , so i am going to skip that
<LaserJock> robotgeek: bummer, maybe there is a reason why it isn't in Debian already ;-)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: i was able to compile the 1.x series, so i'm going to stick with that. 
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ok
<robotgeek> LaserJock: we can include LGPL code?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: if at any point you feel like tell me to RTFM< please do so :)
<LaserJock> robotgeek: yeah, LGPL should be fine
<jsgotangco> sorry :)
<LaserJock> bad jsgotangco
<LaserJock> ;-)
<Burgundavia> ChangeDefaultOperatingSystemAtBoot or ChangeDefaultOperatingSystemAtStartup ?
<Burgundavia> for grub default os
<jsgotangco> what a horrible title
<Burgundavia> what do you suggest?
<Burgundavia> I am trying to rename ChangeDefaultOperatingSystem
<jsgotangco> ChangeOSDefault?
<LaserJock> or ChangeDefaultOS
<jsgotangco> yeah that's better
<Burgundavia> what about  GrubHowto/ChangeDefaultOS ?
<jsgotangco> ChangeDefaultOS is more intuitive
<Burgundavia> make it a subpage of grub to clear identify it with grub
<jsgotangco> yeah that could work
<Burgundavia> done
* Burgundavia cleans up some of the grub sections
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, jsgotangco you use inkscape?
<jsgotangco> not that much
<Burgundavia> oik
<LaserJock> not really, I'm a scientist, not an artist ;-)
<LaserJock> gnuplot is my graphics creation tool
<Burgundavia> ah
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, what do you think of using mediawiki markup on the help wiki?
<Burgundavia> not the engine, just he markup
<LaserJock> I'm markup neutral ;-) I'm not very good with anything
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, mediawiki markup allows us to attract new people, possibly at the expense of some developers
<Burgundavia> as wikipedia is the 600 lb gorilla in the wiki business
<Burgundavia> it really bugged me having to switch
<Burgundavia> I worry that most people won't stick with it like I did
<LaserJock> so does wikipedia use mediawiki ?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> in fact, mediawiki was and is built for it
<LaserJock> and we use moin, right?
<Burgundavia> yes
<LaserJock> and people seem to not like moin as much. I don't get it
<Burgundavia> moin does a few thing nicer and is better for developers but sucks for presentation docs
<Burgundavia> it is not that they are not possible, it is just that they are harder
<Burgundavia> trivial things in mediawiki are harder in moin, and vice versa, but the more common things are harder in moin
<Burgundavia> plus CamelCase and implicit linking sound great but they you descend into links that should be and arent and links that are and shouldn't
<Burgundavia> however, mediawiki is php
<LaserJock> so is it easier to edit with mediawiki?
<LaserJock> oh, I've heard php is evil, but I don't know anything about it :-)
<Burgundavia> they are about equal for everything but css support and tables
<Burgundavia> mediawiki has much better css and table support
<Burgundavia> oh, and image support in moin sucks
<Burgundavia> the basic editing is about the same
<Burgundavia> there is no compelling reason to switch the main wiki over, but for a help wiki with a different class of editor, there is
<LaserJock> but if developers like moin better wouldn't that mean it would be better suited to the help wiki? or am I wrong?
<Burgundavia> no, because help is written by and for users
<Burgundavia> the other thing that moin makes hard is communication
<LaserJock> oh, so what do you mean by developer then?
<Burgundavia> mediawiki assumes that all communication is going to happen within the wiki, via talk pages
<Burgundavia> developers are people like Kamion
<Burgundavia> or the MOTU people
<Burgundavia> moin assumes, by default, that editors have other communication channels
<Burgundavia> something that is true for say the MOTU, but is totally wrong for us
<LaserJock> ahhh, ok
<Burgundavia> downsides to mediawiki, aside from php, are that is a sql based, not flat file
<Burgundavia> it is also somewhat slower than moin
<Burgundavia> it doesn't have a few cool features, such as dynamic searches listed within pages
<Burgundavia> and moin 1.5 has a wysiwyg editor, mediawiki does not
<Burgundavia> so it boils down to a pretty murky decision with some serious drawbacks on either side
<LaserJock> yeah, to bad you can't take the best about both and combine them ;-)
<Burgundavia> indeed
<Burgundavia> I want the features on mediaiwki on a python based moin
<Burgundavia> I heard from the develoeprs that we should be able to hack our moin to do some of waht I want/think we need
<Burgundavia> such as interwiki communication and dropping camelcase
<LaserJock> what is camelcase?
<Burgundavia> ThisIsCamelCase
<LaserJock> oh
<Burgundavia> it is tied to implicit linking, where ThisIsLinked but this is not
<LaserJock> what would be an example of interwiki communication?
<Burgundavia> implicit linking has major drawbacks, such as linking things you don't and forcing you to link other things
<Burgundavia> intrawiki would be a better term
<Burgundavia> in mediawiki, if I edit you talk page, the next page you view will tell you that someone has left a message for you
<Burgundavia> across any you view
<Burgundavia> oh, talk pages, a major lacking in moin that is not easily fixed
<LaserJock> so discussion is done on the /talk pages right?
<Burgundavia> all pages in mediawiki have talk pages associated with them
<Burgundavia> actually Talk:
<Burgundavia> mediawiki has namespaces, moin does not
<Burgundavia> such as Wikipedia: Category:, etc.
<LaserJock> oh, well that would be cool to have
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:1937_births <-- that is a page in the namespace of Category
<Burgundavia> it allows for easy searching, because you can easily exclude everything but the Main namespace (those pages with no Blah: before them0
<Burgundavia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Burgundavia <-- me on wikipedia
<Burgundavia> observe the User: prefix
<LaserJock> oh, that cool be really useful
<LaserJock> um could be really useful
<Burgundavia> indeed. The moin devs don't see it that way
<Burgundavia> again, Namespaces are only useful if you need to differentiate content, such as in a encyclopedia
<Burgundavia> for developers they are only marginally useful
<Burgundavia> but having all specs at Spec: would be nice
<LaserJock> yeah, could you have all MOTU related pages at MOTU: ?
<Burgundavia> ya
<Burgundavia> you can have 64k namespaces I think
<Burgundavia> the other thing I like to point out is that we are the *only* distro to do help in a moin wiki
<LaserJock> that's cool. I have a hard time getting people to use the MOTU namespace
<Burgundavia> fedora uses it moin wiki only for developers
<Burgundavia> *its
<Burgundavia> http://beaglewiki.org/Main_Page <-- mediawiki
<Burgundavia> http://tango-project.org/Tango_Desktop_Project <-- likewise
<Burgundavia> you can do this moin too, but then end up with camelcase or force it out, like the main ubuntu website
<LaserJock> wow, those don't even look like wikis
<Burgundavia> nor does the ubuntu website
<Burgundavia> the thing is, the amount of hacking to make moin do useful things, at what point do you say, is this worth it?
<Burgundavia> mdke and jsgotangco likely disagree with me on a move away from moin
<LaserJock> hmm, I need to work on a mediawiki wiki and see what its like, so far I've just used the ubuntu wiki.
<LaserJock> but I see what your talking about
<Burgundavia> I have spent a lot of time thinking about the problems I have run into and how we have completely failed to build a community around the wiki
<Burgundavia> and how trivial things are made more complex
<Burgundavia> good night, robitaille 
<robitaille> hi Burgundavia
<jsgotangco> why move away from moin?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, for whole host of reasons
<jsgotangco> you're going to convince the webteam to move to mw?
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, no
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, I am only talking about the help wiki for anything
<jsgotangco> help wiki is a different wiki?
<Burgundavia> for the markup, it allows us to tap into the knowledge of wikipedia and copy from USDF
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, it will be
<jsgotangco> where are you puttin git?
<Burgundavia> as for the engine itself, there are some nice features we could us
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, don't follow
<jsgotangco> where are you putting the new wiki?
<Burgundavia> currently there is already a moin install at help.ubutu.com
<Burgundavia> mdke and myself were discussing how best to move the pages
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, do you approve of the idea of moving all the documentation to a help wiki?
<jsgotangco> i dunno...and the current wiki becomes just a collaborative wiki?
<Burgundavia> yes
<Burgundavia> and current wiki keeps all the user pages
<jsgotangco> dunno if that will work :/ people will still use the current wiki
<Burgundavia> that is a social problem that can be solved
<jsgotangco> oh?
<Burgundavia> yes, through telling people and widely advertising the new wiki
<LaserJock> hmm, but wouldn't mediawiki work better for a collaborative wiki?
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, not for a developer collaborative wiki
<jsgotangco> mw is nice for a content-driven wiki
<Burgundavia> yes, like a help one, or an encyclopedia
<Burgundavia> given that mediawiki is likely to hit main for dapper+1, we should consider a move then
<Burgundavia> the people at gnomesupport.org moved
<LaserJock> we could do a poll on launchpad ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock_away, yeah sounds fine
<mdke> Burgundavia, even if I agreed with moving away from moin (which I don't ;)), it doesn't matter, it's not happening
<mdke> Ubuntu now has a massive moin wiki farm, if we want hosting, we can't just say "use other software for this one"
<mdke> s/Ubuntu/Canonical
<mdke> having two sets of software for people to learn would be bad too
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> hasn't Shirish Agarwal sent the same request twice now?
<jsgotangco> mmm?
<mdke> "please can we have moin 1.5"
<jsgotangco> ahh
<jsgotangco> i remember that
<mdke> it's not that hard to learn the markup >_<
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> wiki markup is terribly siple
<jsgotangco> simple
<mdke> yep
<mdke> -> work
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, it is not that it is not simple. It is that it is different, sometimes in very very odd ways
<bustacap> any news on whether or not the scheduled DocTeamMeeting is going ahead tomorrow?
* bustacap looks at the topic
<bustacap> but it was updated on the 15th (things change)
<jsgotangco> its there so it should happen
<jsgotangco> most of the members are online during that time
<bustacap> great, I'll check the conversion to AEST, I should be there as well..
<mdke> thanks for that patch bustacap 
<mdke> nice work
<bustacap> no worries mdke..
<bustacap> I checked too - not in yet :) (care factor = 0)
<mdke> it's in
<mdke> revision number 2309
<bustacap> oh ok, so http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/desktopguide/C/ch01.html doesn't represent the current copy?
<mdke> no, that's updated once per day
<bustacap> cool, what about the agenda for the meeting at 22:00 UTC, is the desktop guide info still relevant.. (I would like to place an agenda item on the wiki page)
<mdke> i think so
<bustacap> oh ok, I will just add my item under the existing stuff.
<mdke> tbh the main maintainer has kinda dropped out recently, so we were waiting on him to discuss them
<mdke> now he's dropped out, we can go ahead and sort things out
<bustacap> well Matt, that could be a hot topic at the meeting..
<mdke> hmm
<bustacap> I am glad the meeting isn't on any earlier, it's a stretch after a session of Friday beers to get up at 8am on a Sat morning..
<bustacap> btw, I have added my addition to the agenda..
<mdke> i see that
<mdke> i don't quite understand it tho
<mdke> what is the suggestion?
<bustacap> ok, how about now? ("Ubuntu Document Storage Facility (UDSF) Integration with Official Ubuntu Documentation")
<mdke> there's a couple of things about this
<mdke> first of all, there is a slight problem of licensing. the UDSF guys have made their wiki "public domain" so that we can copy stuff
<bustacap> isn't the ubuntu wiki PD?
<mdke> it will be
<bustacap> oh ok
<mdke> the problem is that the forums are not actually licensed at all
<bustacap> I am out of my league when it comes to doco licensing.. so no comment on this area..
<mdke> so copying stuff from the forum to the UDSF and making it public domain is a license infringement
<bustacap> oh..
<mdke> s/license infringement/copyright infringement
<mdke> at least in theory
<mdke> in reality, no one gives a damn
<bustacap> mdke, we have a saying in Australia - "same diff" - short for same difference - basically same thing, it doesn't matter..
<bustacap> yeah..
<mdke> we don't have that saying in law tho
<bustacap> haha
<mdke> anyhow
<mdke> apart from that, there is no social barrier to integration
<mdke> they are happy for us to copy stuff
<bustacap> my view on the UDSF HowTo issue is that there should be a little more time spent and the documents should be originally created in the Ubuntu wiki
<mdke> that's my view too
<bustacap> the ubuntu wiki is really growing in popularity and use
<mdke> as for communication, the communication is quite reasonable already
<mdke> i don't think there is much more to be done
<bustacap> I have found everything I have needed in the last few weeks that I have needed through the wiki
<mdke> cool!
<mdke> yeah it's improved a lot over the last few weeks
<bustacap> here's a sweet success story - I have a SonyEricsson k750i phone that I wanted to control my beep-music-player with via bluetooth, and thanks to the MultimediaKeys wiki page and a little ingenuity, I am now able to turn up the music on a song I can barely hear in the kitchen with my phone.. :D
<bustacap> I know this isn't the official meeting, but do you feel there might be a little opposition to cutting over to the wiki from the UDSF guys, given the amount of work they would have had to put into their project..
<mdke> no, they've said expressly that we should take stuff.
<mdke> that was the reason they moved to PD
<bustacap> sure, but there needs to be one step further - the gradual change in "practices" in creating a howto on the forums and creating the document directly in the wiki
<bustacap> prevents double documenting of procedures
<mdke> or triple, if you count the UDSF
<bustacap> also increases participation in "Official Ubuntu" stuff (for use of a better word)
<bustacap> yeah..
<mdke> i couldn't agree more, but that will be very complicated
<mdke> i'd love to see the wiki and the forums closer together, but there is a lot of work involved in that, no least social barrier-breaking
<bustacap> well, not really, looking at the membership hearing for manicka, it seems that there is a close-knit group of guys who answer a bulk of the questions on the forums, if these guys organise to promote the use of the wiki, I am sure the rest of the forum regulars will follow..
<bustacap> hence, (draw deep breath), the invitation of the main forum 'players'
<bustacap> to tomorrow's meeting
<bustacap> this will allow them to raise any issues they might have with the current arrangements (or their motivations for creating the UDSF)
<bustacap> brb
<mdke> you'll need the forum admins to that sort of discussion
<mdke> but it is much too big a project
<mdke> considering the fact that I spent tens and tens of hours trying to encourage the merging of the UDSF and the Ubuntu wiki (and failed), a merge of the Forum howto section and the wiki is even more work
<bustacap> haha, so I am just trumpeting the same trumpet you have used..
<bustacap> :D
<bustacap> mdke, what is your take on this statement on the UDSF site: "The UDSF is a human-filtered archive of the forums that serves to polish the jewels and remove the rough, making sure that only the best of the best get copied over to the Ubuntu Wiki from the forums."
<mdke> bustacap, dunno
<mdke> that was the point of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum
<manicka> Then maybe we could treat it like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/forum, which hasn't worked. The data in the archive is there just waiting to be used.
<mdke> hi manicka 
<manicka> hey :)
<manicka> I have a question about wiki how-tos in general
<manicka> if a user creates a page, who links this page back to the main userdocs index pages. the user or the doc-team?
<mdke> either
<manicka> hmm, okay
<mdke> however, we like only mature pages to go in the index, so ask for them to be reviewed if possible
<mdke> and pages in CategoryCleanup shouldn't be in there
<mdke> that's the theory anyhow
<manicka> so the best way would be for  the user to make the page then notify via the mailing list for someone to have a look at it
<bustacap> hey manicka, congrats on your membership being granted..
<manicka> thankyou
<mdke> manicka, yeah, ideally
<mdke> lots of people do that
<mdke> WikiGuide should have all that sort of info
<bustacap> yeah, basically, the wiki is the to create as many ad-hoc howtos that are required, then, when the author is ready, they can change their wiki pages to the CategoryCleanup category and have their pages reviewed, and eventually, if up to the standard, get an inclusion into one of the main wiki indexes..
<manicka> do you know if there are any mediawiki to moin moin scripts around?
<mdke> manicka, i'm not sure, there might be. we can try google or ask in #moin
<bustacap> is mediawiki the format of the UDSF?
<mdke> its the software yeah
<manicka> mdke
<mdke> hello manicka 
<manicka> does kb know about the udsf agenda item at the doc team meeting?
<mdke> i don't know, it was just added
<mdke> i'm not too sure what the issue is, myself
<manicka> would you like some us to attend?
<mdke> i didn't add the item, but of course I'd be happy if you attend the meeting
<manicka> ok, thanks
<mdke> regardless of what the agenda is :)
* rob pokes head in
<mdke> heya rob
<rob> hi mdke 
<mdke> ahhhh
<mdke> i rock
<mdke> Burgwork, http://help.ubuntu.com/wiki/FaqGuide2
<mdke> just need to sort out a few margins now
<jjesse> that FAQ looks nice :)
<mdke> yay :)
<mdke> jjesse, i think we should merge the desktopguide meeting into the regular one
<mdke> what do you think?
<jjesse> mdke: that's fine w/ me, i can't make to the one today, but we had talked about working on the dekstopguide seperatly cause not everyone was interested
<mdke> yeah
<jjesse> i wass just looking at the agenda and saw that meeting was still listed, but it never did work out
<jsgotangco> hrmm i might be too sleepy to attend the meeting later :/
<robotgeek> hmm, i think i should be able to make it to the meeting
<jsgotangco> it would be around 6am on my side
<jsgotangco> its already 12:30am
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: go to bed right now :)
<jsgotangco> im still looking for a neat tld
<robotgeek> tld?
<robotgeek> top level domain?
<jsgotangco> yeah
<robotgeek> neattld.org, lol
<jsgotangco> i'd like a country code heh
<robotgeek> i bought myself a .org, i dunno why
<jsgotangco> lol
<robotgeek> i have to claim, "I'm a one man organization"
<jsgotangco> wonder if i could get a .va tld
<jsgotangco> heh
<jsgotangco> later
<jsgotangco> i hope
<jjesse> mdke: are the kubuntu docs available for translation thru rosetta?
<mdke> no, no docs are
<mdke> infact, none of dapper is
<jjesse> oh
<mdke> we'll only add the docs when they get to a stable stage
<mdke> are any kubuntu docs nearing that stage already?
<jjesse> releasenotes are getting close
<mdke> ok cool, I'll start thinking about it
<jjesse> aren't we in feature freeze?
<mdke> dunno
<mdke> upstream version freeze i think
<mdke> that doesn't affect docs though
<jjesse> i never remember but if we are in feature freeze then not much should change release notes wise
<mdke> ah right, yeah
<LaserJock> mdke, jjesse: I was poking around KDE and noticed that the Packaging Guide isn't in the KDE help. I think, since it is a generic doc, that it would be good for it to be in both. What do you guys think?
<mdke> yes, sure
<jjesse> agree
<LaserJock> ok, do I need to talk to Riddell to make that change or can you guys do it? or do I have to do it ;-)
<mdke> i've changed the Makefile and asked Riddell to change the packaging
<mdke> or you can do it yourself I guess
<mdke> see kubuntu/debian
<mdke> ok *goes home*
<LaserJock> ok, I'll look into it
<Burgwork> mdke, that is ultimate answer to the ubuntuguide
<jjesse> the faqguide?  i like it a lot :)
<mdke> Burgwork, it is the doc that is already on help.ubuntu.com, except through the moin wiki
<mdke> i think we're ready to go for BetterWikiDocs
<Burgwork> mdke, yes, but in a nicer format and easier to read
<mdke> is it?
<mdke> it should be the same :/
<Burgwork> oh, wait, I haven't looked at help since you hacked at the css
<Burgwork> yes, they look the same
<mdke> oh the font is a bit different
<Nestal> Hello
<Nestal> I've just got Ubuntu 5.1, I need some help, please
<LaserJock> Nestal: have you tried #ubuntu ?
<jjesse> Nestal: you probally are looking for #ubuntu to help you out
<jjesse> Nestal: we work on the documentation here 
<Nestal> nAh ok Thank you :)
<Nestal> see you
<jjesse> man our svn is huge :(
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm up to 203MB in my checkout
<jjesse> i'm at 625 MB
<LaserJock> oh my
<LaserJock> why is yours so much more?
<mdke> more cache
<mdke> jjesse, delete and recheckout?
<jjesse> mdke: ok
<bustacap> doc team meeting on in 20mins..
<Burgwork> any bash experts here?
<bustacap> I'll give it a 'bash' ;)
<bustacap> pm me..
<LaserJock> Burgwork: do we have an agenda?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, whats an agenda?
<mdke> DocumentationTeam/MeetingAgenda
<LaserJock> thanks mdke
<mdke> Burgwork, any idea if Brian will be around?
<Burgwork> mdke, nope, he is at work
<mdke> Burgwork, ok thanks
<LaserJock> pesky work >:|
<mdke> meeting now then?
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-02
<LaserJock> hmm, I wonder if bshumate's connection was really reset by beer :-)
<LaserJock> I guess a drunk ISP could be to blame
<Burgwork> can I reset my connection with beer?
<LaserJock> if you have enough I'm sure ;-)
<Burgwork> glad this week is over
<Burgwork> but next week I go to Toronto, ugh
<[Alpha] > Helppppppppppppppppppppppp with an old bios
<LaserJock> [Alpha] : this isn't a support channel, you should try #ubuntu
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:Burgwork] : Ubuntu Documentation Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Next Meeting: 27 Jan 22:00 UTC: at #ubuntu-meeting
<Burgwork> there, that might be clearer than doc team
<Burgwork> not that anybody reads topics anyway
<LaserJock> bustacap: do you think the UDSF meeting agenda sounds neutral enough?
<bustacap> LaserJock, haha word travels quickly
<bustacap> well, is that a trick question? :)
<bustacap> it is an agenda for discussion, and an agenda that can be added to..
<bustacap> LaserJock, I have changed a line on the page to now read: "The agenda is open to be added to and edited freely by anyone."
<bustacap> I am having a breather for a while, I'll check up on the situation later from my UG meeting tonight
* jsgotangco yawns
<LaserJock> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> hey LaserJock 
<jsgotangco> so how did the meeting go?
<LaserJock> umm, ok  I guess. I'm used to MOTU meetings so it was pretty quick
<jsgotangco> ah not so much on agenda i guess :/
<LaserJock> we talked about changing the C locale to en
<LaserJock> jsgotangco: we need more controversy so our meetings last for hours like the MOTU meetings do ;-)
<jsgotangco> heh we need more doc maintainers and screw up our licenses
<LaserJock> hmm, yes that might work too
<jsgotangco> ok brb too
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<robotgeek> hey LaserJock 
<robotgeek> how it goes?
<LaserJock> it's going. I fixed tightvnc today, which is good
<robotgeek> cool, i'm looking forward to get on with the Kubuntu docs today, get the structure laid out
<LaserJock> hi KingBahamut 
<robotgeek> hey KingBahamut 
<KingBahamut> aye
<LaserJock> does anybody know how .pot files are created?
<robotgeek> hmm, i read about this. i know it for python, lemme pull up a link
<KingBahamut> I seem to remember
<KingBahamut> thats something referencing documentation or something
<KingBahamut> cant quite remember
<robotgeek> KingBahamut: heh
<LaserJock> well, I think they are for translations perhaps
<LaserJock> but I want to mess around with the gpl XML but it also has a .pot . I don't know if I will mess it up
<robotgeek> LaserJock: yeah, i know thet are for translations, i am trying to pull up something specific
<robotgeek> deja vu, i swear
<robotgeek> Madpilot_: you the man
<robotgeek> LaserJock: http://anakin.ncst.ernet.in/~aparna/consolidated/x3799.html maybe that will help
<Madpilot_> hmm?
<robotgeek> you know how to generate pot files for translations?
<Madpilot_> me? nope, sorry. I'm a hopeless unilingual anglophone...
<LaserJock> looks like xml2pot would work
<LaserJock> I don't think I will mess anything up because I'm just changing the layout not the content
<robotgeek> maybe someone should do a wiki page on that
<LaserJock> lol, a wiki page is always the answer ;-)
<dsas> could someone explain to me how to make a subpage of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WifiDocs/ and make it show up in the card specific section?
<Madpilot_> dsas, just create the URL you want to use (/WifiDocs/FooCard or whatever) and the wiki will ask if you want to create a page with that name
<Madpilot_> make sure you add it to the main WifiDocs page - subpages aren't added automatically
<dsas> Madpilot_, ah ok, I understood that [[FullSearch(-ManufacturerModel AND title:WifiDocs)] ]  did something fancy to make it show up automatically?
<Madpilot_> no idea, to be honest
<dsas> i'll try and see :)
<Madpilot_> go ahead, it's easy to revert things that mess up on the wiki!
<dsas> Madpilot_, sweet, it just worked
<Madpilot_> dsas, cool. Which  page?
<dsas> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WifiDocs/CompaqW200
<dsas> Madpilot_, I've added a redirect to the old one :)
<dsas> *from the old one
<Madpilot_> from is better :P
<Burgundavia> Madpilot_, do you work tomorrow?
<Madpilot_> Burgundavia, yes, I'm downtown 10-6
<Burgundavia> hmm, the phone here has already been cutoff
* Burgundavia grumbles at Telus
<Madpilot_> yes, Telus is evil. And irritating.
<Burgundavia> mdke, around?
<Madpilot_> dsas, cool, I see how that WifiDocs card list works - interesting search filtering...
<dsas> Madpilot_, I don't grok how the ManufacturerModel bit works tbh
<Madpilot_> dsas, if it works, that's enough :P
<dsas> Madpilot_, *grins*, I agree. 
<Madpilot_> it's some sort of search-filter voodoo
<dsas> and who am I to question the moin voodo man
<dsas> would anyone like to criticise CompaqW200 or should I send a mail to the mailing list?
<Burgundavia> salut bshumate 
<Burgundavia> dsas, just a sec, I will look at it
<dsas> Burgundavia, thanks
<Burgundavia> dsas, looks good. A few comments
<Madpilot_> dsas, it looks OK, but I don't actually grok wireless, so I'm not really qualified further...
<Burgundavia> dsas, we don't prefer any editor, so change the bit about editing /etc/modules to say something like "Open a text editor using sudo and edit /etc/modules"
<Burgundavia> dsas, other than that, looks good
<Madpilot_> Burgundavia, "sudo gedit /whatever/foo" is easier to understand than "open a text editor using sudo and..."
<Madpilot_> or "sudo nano..." if you want to make sure it works everywhere...
<Burgundavia> Madpilot_, yes, but what if a kubuntu user reads it
<Burgundavia> Madpilot_, all the official docs are written in this way and it was good
<Madpilot_> nano works in Kubuntu too...
<Burgundavia> still no good, commandline only
<dsas> Burgundavia, ok, I'll change that in other documents I come across it in too.
<Burgundavia> dsas, cheers
<dsas> Burgundavia, It it ok for me to move that page out of category cleanup now?
<Burgundavia> dsas, yep
* Madpilot_ bestows upon Burgundavia the title of "Grand High Master of CategoryCleanup" :P
<LaserJock> I just updated and cleaned up our GPL docbook
<LaserJock> in case anybody cares ;-)
<Madpilot_> saw that - big commit
<LaserJock> well, not really any content change
<LaserJock> just updated the address
<LaserJock> but I took out the sect tags and replaced them with orderedlists
<mdke> LaserJock_away, don't worry about the pot for the gpl, go ahead and edit
<mdke> oh you did, good ;)
<robotgeek> hey mdke 
<mdke> morning
<mdke> poor old Naaman
<robotgeek> why?
<mdke> well he's undertaken a very difficult task
<mdke> trying to bring the wiki and forums closer together
<robotgeek> yeah, that's a tough one. but someone's gotta do it
<mdke> mmm
<mdke> many have spent a lot of time trying already
<mdke> but maybe a fresh face might help
<robotgeek> yeah...i spent some time with KB one day, but did not work out
<robotgeek> it got outta practical domain, and went to philosophical ones. 
* mdke nods
<mdke> it's a shame because really the forum (helpdesk) and wiki (guides) idea is so simple, that it would work really well
<robotgeek> yeah
<manicka> evening mdke, robotgeek
<robotgeek> evening manicka 
<robotgeek> time for me to write layout structure for the Kubuntu Desktop Guide, later. 
<robotgeek_work> mdke: maybe i can just copy structure from ubuntu desktop guide?
<robotgeek_work> i might also get kkhatman to work on it with me, so that's nice
<mdke> robotgeek_work, sounds good. You can copy anything you like
<robotgeek_work> cool. the first changes are going to be grep for ubuntu and replace with kubuntu :)
<robotgeek_work> hah, looks like rob1/someone else has already done that :)
<robotgeek_work> mdke: is there a specific column size to which i should limit the writing to (78 cols or such?). i usually do it without linebreaks
<robotgeek_work> not that it would matter with xml, but you get the idea
<robotgeek_work> i'm done with the preface, lol
<mdke> robotgeek_work, i do it without linebreaks too
<mdke> someone eventually comes along and cleans it up
<mdke> dunno how
<mdke> maybe with conglomerate or something
<robotgeek_work> hmm, i find it difficult to read with line breaks, that's not the way i am used to :)
<robotgeek_work> conglomerate? 
<robotgeek_work> ah, the editor
<robotgeek_work> is it any better than vim? :)
<mdke> i don't understand how it works
<mdke> it lays things out structurall
<mdke> y
<robotgeek_work> i got some plugin which puts the closing tag automatically, very useful
<mdke> cool
<robotgeek_work> i think it might be xmledit itself, or something else. i have about 3/4 installed, lol
<robotgeek_work> kde-chunk-online.xsl is what i'm using right now for the html output, i couldn't find one for the kubuntu-desktop guide
<robotgeek_work> should i just use the one for ubuntu right now?
<robotgeek_work> hey Kyral 
<robotgeek_work> mdke: ping
<mdke> robotgeek_work, pong
<robotgeek_work> mdke: can i just do stuff like http://pastebin.com/527190
<robotgeek_work> or do i have to rewrite everything for kubuntu? 
<mdke> looks good to me
<mdke> use your own judgment, and ask the kubuntu guys to review afterwards
<robotgeek_work> heh, as usual :)
<robotgeek_work> i am still trying to figure out how it all works out, but i'm comfortable with docbook already. html + latex :)
<robotgeek_work> i'll bug you if i have any questions
<mdke> cool, thanks for working on that
<robotgeek_work> no problems, it's a good way for me to contribute back to an OS which i probably will be using for the rest of my life (Hopefully)
<mdke> :)
<robotgeek_work> mdke: do you know if we will have Shipits for Kubuntu Dapper?
<robotgeek_work> found out, answer is "assume yes:
<robotgeek_work> apparently, What does kubuntu mean? has the answer "It means "towards humanity" in Bemba."
<mdke> i thought shipit wasn't available for kubuntu
<robotgeek_work> i asked Riddell, he said "assume yes"
<mdke> cool
<robotgeek_work> damn, i'm finding out new things about Kubuntu, and I'm not liking it:)
* Bonzodog uses xubuntu
<Bonzodog> in dapper, and it's nice
<robotgeek_work> i'm actually writing this on xubuntu, eventually i will move over to kubuntu
<robotgeek_work> since i have better hardware now :)
<robotgeek_work> it's a much nicely integrated system, IMHO. and I come from the mac line, so it matters quite a bit to me :)
<Bonzodog> ugh...kde sucks imho
<Bonzodog> it's bloatware
<robotgeek_work> bloat where?
<Bonzodog> you seen how much software it installs?
<Bonzodog> like over a gig of software
<robotgeek_work> true, but all that is required for the "integration". i don't care for disk space :)
<Bonzodog> to get a full running desktop
<Bonzodog> I have so much diskspace it defies reality
<Bonzodog> but kde's bloat is inexcusable
<Bonzodog> I wouldn't use suse because it relies on the kde base to run yast
<Bonzodog> I like my linux distro's light and fast
<mpt_> And what kind of people call software "yast", anyway
<robotgeek_work> Bonzodog: it pisses me off that I have to copy paste a url into liferea's discovery service to get feeds. 
<Bonzodog> with absolute direct access to the core
<mpt_> It sounds like an infection
<mdke> heya mpt_ :)
<robotgeek_work> in kde, from konqueror i can add feeds to akregator directly. stuff like that matters for me
<mpt_> hi mdke 
<robotgeek_work> plus, vim integrates nicely in kdevelop :)
* mpt_ dreams of a virus that will cause Qt to ignore all presses of the "K" key
* robotgeek_work throttles mpt_ 
<Bonzodog> incidentally bustacaps idea of removing the how-to sections from the forums is unworkable
<Bonzodog> the section was created because people were overloading other sections with there own home-grown how-tos
<Bonzodog> some of those how-to's were put together by people who we have not heard from since
<Bonzodog> but importantly, they work
<Bonzodog> we cannot persuade the user base at large to contribute stuff directly to the wiki
<Bonzodog> they just don't listen in our experience
<Bonzodog> the forums are a bit like modern replacement for usenet, where people develop their own ways of doing things
<Bonzodog> it's users helping users
<Bonzodog> the mods are just there to mediate when things get out of hand, remove spam, and provide a modicum of control
<Bonzodog> so we really have to centre on transferring the good stuff to the wiki, then acknowleding the contribution in the wiki
<Bonzodog> we should never have to worry about asking permission as anything posted to the forums is classed as open to editing for public use
<Bonzodog> mailing lists are frankly old hat
<Bonzodog> I stopped using them **years** ago
* robotgeek_work just started using them, lol
<Bonzodog> as I don't like a full inbox
<mpt_> rofl
<mpt_> Switching Ubuntu bug tracking from Bugzilla to Malone was not enough
<mpt_> Let's switch all development discussion from the ubuntu-devel mailing list to the forums :-)
<robotgeek_work> Bonzodog: mutt + fetchmail + procmail works great for lists :)
<Bonzodog> i have gmail
<Bonzodog> and just use it's web front end
<mpt_> well, there's your problem right there
<mpt_> If you use Gmail, forums will be comparably awkward and slow
<Bonzodog> my ISP does not provide mail accounts
* robotgeek_work also uses gmail, but has not seen the webinterface for several days. it's only useful for reporting spam, lol
<mdke> gmail has pop access
<Bonzodog> so web mail it is
<mdke> i use a pop web server
<mdke> which is much worse than gmail
<robotgeek_work> i use gmail's pop access, it very easy to setup too
<mpt_> I use multiple computers, so POP is no good for me
<Bonzodog> I have used gmails pop access
<Bonzodog> but i cannot find a mail client i'm happy with
<Bonzodog> I used to use pine
<robotgeek_work> Bonzodog: kmail is very nice :)
<Bonzodog> um...gtk solution it has to be
<robotgeek_work> Bonzodog: syphleed maybe?
<Bonzodog> I might install thunderbird
<robotgeek_work> Bonzodog: you can get mutt with pine keybindings, if you can spare the effort, i think
<Bonzodog> I want a well written ncurses client
<robotgeek_work> mutt is very nice, i use both kmail and mutt 
<robotgeek_work> mutt is for when i am away from computer
<Bonzodog> at the moment though, I am keeping dapper on the bleeding edge
<Bonzodog> and it's broken a lot of the gnome dependent apps
<Bonzodog> as i am currently missing gconf
<robotgeek_work> my dapper won't upgrade, i think it might actually be a good sign, lol
<Bonzodog> robotgeek_work, have you asked for a dist-upgrade lately?
<Bonzodog> I did it last night
<Bonzodog> I now have gnome 2.13.9
<Bonzodog> a very broken gnome
<robotgeek_work> Failed to fetch http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/i/ifupdown/ifupdown_0.6.7ubuntu6_powerpc.deb  404 Not Found
<Bonzodog> robotgeek_work, remove the 'us' from the addy
<robotgeek_work> ah, okay. 
<Bonzodog> it all has to be just archive.ubuntu.com to work
<robotgeek_work> funny, it worked yesterday
<Bonzodog> you wait now
<Bonzodog> also enable universe and multiverse in both sets of archives, security included
<robotgeek_work> already have
<Bonzodog> then apt-get update
<robotgeek_work> hmm, 123 MB. Do i want to upgrade and risk breakage...heh
<Bonzodog> then apt-get dist-upgrade
<robotgeek_work> hmm, this is going to take a while. crap
<Bonzodog> like I said, /home is on a seperate partition, so breakag only happens at the root
<robotgeek_work> Bonzodog: that's my test machine, so no issues there
<robotgeek_work> mdke: i have a reference like &terminal, is that document specific?
<robotgeek_work> mdke: can i refer directly to Adept Guide, instead of copy/pasting the material here?
<robotgeek_work> anyways, almost done with chapter 1, i made a few changes to global ent, i guess. is that okay?
<robotgeek_work> i made changes to "ubuntu-doc/libs/global.ent", is this okay? 
<robotgeek_work> later, gotta hit bed :)
<robotgeek_zzz> http://robotgeek.no-ip.info/KubuntuDesktopGuide/ is where you can get a sneak peek. lots of errors, i know :)
<mdke> robotgeek_zzz, you can't use &terminal; it refers to a gnome-menus entity
<mdke> robotgeek_zzz, yes, refer to the adept guide
<mdke> robotgeek_zzz, yes, make changes to global.ent, if you need to add things
<mdke> :)
<LaserJock> mdke: did you happen to look at my changes to the gpl.xml?
<mdke> LaserJock, nope, just assumed it is fine
<mdke> that reminds me about the pot
<LaserJock> mdke: oh your bold to assume that anything I do is fine ;-)
<LaserJock> mdke: so should all the .pot
<LaserJock> files for the licenses be removed?
<mdke> yeah I'm gonna do that
<LaserJock> ok, thanks
<LaserJock> I was hoping to not be too much of a pain
<mdke> LaserJock, you're not at all
<mdke> quite the reverse
<mdke> done
<mdke> tempted to nuke xubuntu too, we don't work on that to my knowledge
<LaserJock> really?
<mdke> i think that is upstream docs, no one has ever worked on it iirc
<LaserJock> oh
<LaserJock> that's to bad
<mdke> ?
<LaserJock> that we don't have any xubuntu docs
<LaserJock> what about edubuntu? Do they have there own docs?
<mdke> xfce has good upstream docs
<mdke> yeah edubuntu have some docs
<mdke> the current ones are not in our repo i think
<LaserJock> lol, I forgot that we were shipping HTML. My yelp hasn'
<mdke> hasn't?
<LaserJock> hasn't shown anything for a while
<mdke> oh right
<mdke> do a scrollkeeper reinstall
<LaserJock> really?
<mdke> just sudo scrollkeeper-rebuild should do it
<LaserJock> I'll try that because it works in my chroot but not on my main install
<mdke> just dist-upgrade it should be fixed :D
<LaserJock> well, a dist-upgrade hasn't fixed it
<mdke> was scrollkeeper updated?
<crimsun> today, yes
<LaserJock> I don't know but sudo scrollkeeper-rebuilddb worked
<mdke> good
<LaserJock> weird
<mdke> its a known problem
<mdke> should have been fixed with the last scrollkeeper tho i think
* Bonzodog 's dist-upgrade in dapper broke gnome completely
<Bonzodog> wot no gconf-editor, wot no gksudo
<Bonzodog> wot no theme manager
<LaserJock> what I don't get is why it would work in my chroot. They are both dist-upgraded, just not at the same time
<Bonzodog> gconf is **completely** broken in ghnome at the moment
<mdke> Bonzodog, worksforme
<Bonzodog> you ever tried running gnome without it
<Bonzodog> ?
<LaserJock> good thing I have KDE around ;-)
<Bonzodog> I'm on dapper 64 bit
<Bonzodog> with all repos enabled
<Bonzodog> and I did a dist-upgrade
<Bonzodog> as of last night
<Bonzodog> the dist-upgrade just broke gnome completely
<Bonzodog> it also did an interesting update to gdm
<Bonzodog> my gnome is currently 2.13.9
<mdke> yes there is a new gdm theme
<Bonzodog> the shutdown and reboot menu's have been enclosed in one 'options' menu
<Bonzodog> I cannot understand how it broke gconf though
<Bonzodog> gconfd is running in the background
<mdke> best file a bug
<mdke> i don't see that here
<Bonzodog> but all my icons ahve gone, I have no desktop background
<Bonzodog> gnome-theme-manager segfaults
<LaserJock> works fine for me too
<Bonzodog> try deleting your .gconf dirs in your home dir
<Bonzodog> and watch it crash
<LaserJock> Bonzodog: works fine for me
<Bonzodog> hrmm...strange
<Bonzodog> dunno why it just happened on my system
<Bonzodog> but something did break once in downloading
<SteveMyers> mdke, when you're available can you pm me sir, thank you
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-03
<robotgeek> hi, anybody home?
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, nope
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: what's the best way to create diff's for new files, individual?
<robotgeek> i mean i added new files, should i just create diff's for each one?
<Burgundavia> you want to get a new file added to svn?
<robotgeek> yessir
<Burgundavia> just attach the whole file to your email and mention that you want to add it
<robotgeek> heh, that is so much easier. lol
<robotgeek> okay, i'll just attach and email. can i just tar.gz the directory and mail it?
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, are you looking at a lot of files?
<Burgundavia> and what sort?
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: if you can copy the ubuntu-desktop-guide contents over here, that would be great
<robotgeek> ubuntu-doc/ubuntu/desktopguide/C -> ubuntu-doc/kubuntu/desktopguide/C
<Burgundavia> I don't have enough experience with the svn server recently to be comfortable doing that
<robotgeek> okay, i'll just ask on the mailing list?
<Burgundavia> yep
<robotgeek> thank Burgundavia 
<Burgundavia> np
<sola_phides> hi
<sola_phides> i was wondering if there is a guide for installing ubuntu without internet connection
<mdke> robotgeek_away, you can just diff the whole directory
<mdke> enrico, buongiorno, have you got 2 minutes?
<enrico> mdke: I can try 
<enrico> mdke: buongiorno!
<mdke> enrico, :) https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-doc/2006-January/004930.html
<mdke> could you have a look for that user and see if anything is obviously wrong on his settings?
<enrico> mdke: ok.  let's see if I find the list admin password :)
<Burgundavia> mdke, any objections to me also getting admin rights on the ubuntu-doc mailing list?
<mdke> no
<mdke> you could replace Liz?
<Burgundavia> sure
<mdke> enrico, grazie
<Burgundavia> though my chromosomes are rather different and i don't think I am pretty
<enrico> mdke: looks like I can't find the password. Let's search in my mail archive...
<mdke> enrico, ok, don't spend too long on it tho
<enrico> mdke: could it be that the password has been changed recently?  I tried passwords from my old mail archive and they don't work either
<mdke> enrico, I don't know I'm afraid. No problem, we can wait for Jerome to turn up. He should have it
<enrico> k
<enrico> mdke: if the list configuration is ok, then it could be an error on his side, like a spam filter
<robotgeek> mdke: thanks for the commit
<mdke> enrico, yeah these things are normally user problems I guess
<mdke> robotgeek, no problem
<mdke> man I hate it when evolution randomly expands all my threads in all the folders
<robotgeek> heh, i use kmail > evolution
* jsgotangco stares at kubuntu desktop activity
* mdke has just copied it across from ubuntu
<mdke> but robotgeek_away has plans for working on it
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<jsgotangco> mdke, you taking over rob's work?
<jsgotangco> (happy new year btw)
<mdke> jsgotangco, which work?
<jsgotangco> faqguide
* jsgotangco notices malone activity
<mdke> rob isn't working on the docs anymore
<jsgotangco> :(
<mdke> he said he might do a bit
<mdke> but i think it makes sense to take him off as contact for the guide
<jsgotangco> ok sir
<jsgotangco> :)
<mdke> hmm wtf is docbase? https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/29105
<jsgotangco> enrico?
<enrico> jsgotangco: hi!
<enrico> mdke: docbase is a system used to register documentation in a Debian-based system
<jsgotangco> mdke, what about https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-doc/+bug/29153 can we close this after we edit the source and change it to alacarte?
<mdke> enrico, do we need it?
<enrico> mdke: sure :)
<enrico> mdke: and it's just a matter of writing a small metadata file
<enrico> mdke: apt-get install doc-base
<mdke> jsgotangco, sure, we fix the bug, then close it
* jsgotangco hunts that page in the guide
<enrico> mdke: the package contains a small "Debian doc-base Manual" which will tell you everything about it
<mdke> alrighty
<enrico> jsgotangco: how can I help you?
<jsgotangco> enrico, hi, you already did (the malone bug above)
<jsgotangco> :D
* mdke is rejecting lots of bugs
<jsgotangco> yes great leader
<mdke> ??
<jsgotangco> ok will dear leader do?
<jsgotangco> :)
<jsgotangco> i've wanted to tackle those pending bugs since bugzilla but couldn't find anyone to discuss it before :/
<enrico> jsgotangco: oh, cool! :)
<highvoltage> mdke: i can see :)
<mdke> sorry for spam
<mdke> ok i've had enough
<mdke> cya
<highvoltage> seeya!
<mpt__> mdke, if "The fix will be in dapper with the next upload", it hasn't been released yet, so it shouldbe Fix Committed
<mpt__> The distinction is so that people using the current release can search for a bug and see that a fix has been committed since that release, instead of reporting a duplicate.
* mpt__ goes back to sleep
<mdke> mpt, yes I know, but I am cutting corners. The problem is that we don't get round to looking at bugs very much, so it is quicker to close bugs like that. I'm willing to take the risk of duplicates
<jsgotangco> hrmmm how much would 1GB USB stick cost lately
<jsgotangco> ?
<robitaille> mdke:  ping
<mdke> robitaille, pong
<robitaille> bugs 29059  and 29137  Should they be "rejected"?  They are still open upstream
<mdke> robitaille, they are rejected in ubuntu-docs because they aren't bugs in that package. I _think_ that "rejected" includes the bugzilla UPSTREAM
<mdke> i might be wrong tho
<robitaille> so they should be rejected for "ubuntu-docs (ubuntu)", but unconfirmed for  upstream
<robitaille> or something like that...still getting use to Malone...
<mdke> yes, but in this case the upstream is gnome, which doesn't use Malone, so there is no upstream fix there
<mdke> also, ubuntu-docs is also an upstream project with bugs filed :) that's the confusing part
<mdke> in fact all the bugs I've been working on today were in ubuntu-docs (upstream)
<robitaille> for 29059,  maybe   we should do "gnome users docs(upstream) unconfirmed" and "ubuntu-docs (ubuntu) rejected".  
<mdke> is there a gnome users docs (upstream)?
<robitaille> let me try
<mdke> i thought because gnome doesn't use malone, there wouldn't be one
<robitaille> there is a gnome2-user doc.  look at 29059 now
<robitaille> maybe it makes more sense that way.  the bug is close for us, but malone can still point to upstream if anyone ever care
<mdke> robitaille, i don't think it helps, because the gnome developers don't use or maintain that. It is just adding confusion about when the bug gets fixed. That module was probably just added because some translator team uses rosetta to translate gnome
<mdke> in fact, it might be a bit counterproductive
<mdke> users might think that doing that will help get their bug fixed, but it won't
<robitaille> but personally I find this confusing to see that upstream is rejected while it is not
<robitaille> but at the end of day, I don't really care one way or the other :)
<mdke> that is a bug in malone, IMO
<mdke> the bug is: "rejected" doesn't mean rejected
<mdke> or rather, it means rejected for ubuntu-docs, and the correct package where the bug is doesn't use malone, so...
<mdke> it would work if everyone used malone :D
<mdke> but we can't keep bugs open in two places, IMHO
<robitaille> all the upstream bugs are open in two places....
<robitaille> in Malone and gnome's bugzilla for example
<mdke> gnome bugs aren't open in malone as upstream bugs, or at least, they shouldn't be
<mdke> only ubuntu bugs and bugs in products that use malone as their bugtrackers are in Malone
<mdke> afaik
<robitaille> i guess you're right.  
<mdke> it's pretty confusing, but I think that is how it works
<mdke> launchpad is easy if everyone uses it, but a bit tricky if upstream doesn't use it
<robitaille> i have been looking at my pile of bugs in malone, and all the upstreams are also valid ubuntu bugs as well, thus open in both locations
<mdke> ah
<mpt> mdke, if Launchpad could show you (or anyone else) a summary of all Ubuntu doc bugs, including how many were New, how many were Fix Committed, how many were Fix Released, and so on, would that make you less likely to cut corners?
<mdke> mpt, absolutely. Especially "list all Fix Committed"
<mpt> yeah
<mdke> mpt, if launchpad would send me fewer emails, that would be good too
<mdke> maybe figure out that I'm a member of the ubuntu-doc group, and not send me a separate mail too
<mdke> dunno if that would work tho
<SteveMyers> Mr.Galvin, you available?
<mpt> (mgalvin)
<mgalvin> SteveMyers, mpt: yes?
<SteveMyers> mglavin are you available?
<SteveMyers> ah ok
<SteveMyers> mind if I pm you real quick?
<mgalvin> sure
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-04
<LaserJock> hi doc people!
<Burgundavia> is it possible to change me password to the svn repo?
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: I was wondering that as well
<Burgundavia> evidentally not
<Burgundavia> you know, not having a phone is a major annoyance
<LaserJock> I bet
<Burgundavia> my landlord is selling his house and Telus (the bastards) decided to cut off the phone three days ago
<LaserJock> that's not right
<Burgundavia> this is the same company that took 15 days to reconnect a phone after a move and is widely considered by largely evil and incompetent
<Burgundavia> they got investigated for having 2000 complaints to the CRTC (telecom watchdog) in a 4 month span
<Burgundavia> ever seen the film "The Corporation", about how evil corporations are and must be? Telus goes beyond that
<LaserJock> lol
<LaserJock> well, not really
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
<Madpilot> hi Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> salut Madpilot 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: found a place yet?
<Burgundavia> yep
<Burgundavia> only $312
<Madpilot> cool, nice deal. Where, and do you need a hand moving sometime this week?
<Burgundavia> I need a hand next Sunday, if you are free
<Madpilot> Sundays work. 
<Burgundavia> what about next Sat?
<Madpilot> I'm free this coming Saturday too, I think
<Burgundavia> ok, the 4th it is
<Madpilot> My shifts at Central keep getting swapped between Monday & Saturday, which is an irritation
<Burgundavia> ugh
<Burgundavia> I love how much personal chatter goes on in this channel
<Madpilot> last weekend I had a three day weekend, but I worked Saturday & tomorrow...
<Burgundavia> jsgotangco, how bad is the spam load to -doc?
<Madpilot> wow, mdke must have spent the entire weekend bughunting & doing docteam-svn commits...
<jsgotangco> not that much
<jsgotangco> around 30+ a day
<Burgundavia> -users is about twice that
<LaserJock> Burgundavia: did you figure out the svn password thing? I would imagine elmo would have to be the one to change it
<Burgundavia> LaserJock, nah, I am not going to worry about it
<bhuvan> LaserJock, why would you want to change the password ?
<LaserJock> bhuvan: it's hard to remeber?
<LaserJock> remember
<bhuvan> LaserJock, true. but, it is depend on svn client you use. what's your svn client ?
* Burgundavia just realized he is 200 commits behind in his local repo
<Madpilot> that'll be a lengthy run of svn up...
<LaserJock> bhuvan: client? svn
<bhuvan> LaserJock, if so it will remember for you, isnt it ?
<LaserJock> right, but if I need to check it out again somwhere else I have to dig up the email that has the password. Not a problem but it does bring up the lack of control we have with the repo
<bhuvan> you are correct. but, to checkout we dont require our password. to commit, yes.
<bhuvan> LaserJock, yep, you are trying to address different problem anyway!
<LaserJock> yeah, Burgundavia just asked and I was just wondering too
<bhuvan> bshumate, ping
<mpt_> mdke or anyone, how do I stop getting mail about ubuntu-docs bugs?
<mpt_> I'm not sure why I'm getting them
<LaserJock> mpt_: probably because you are a member of the docteam LP team?
<LaserJock> is the building of the html for doc.ubuntu.com from the svn repo automatic (like cron job)?
<bhuvan> LaserJock, yes
<LaserJock> do you know what time it does it?
<bhuvan> LaserJock, i know it is done every day. but not sure about the time
<jsgotangco> i used to ahve access to that server but i lost my account credentials
<LaserJock> whay to go jsgotangco ;-) just kidding
<LaserJock> jeffsch: ping?
<robotgeek> LaserJock: hey
<robotgeek> wow, my first useful email to the list needs moderation :)
<LaserJock> hi robotgeek 
<LaserJock> really?
<robotgeek> i apparently sent a too large an email
<LaserJock> oops
<robotgeek> i sent 5 patches in one email
<jeffsch> LaserJock: pong
<robotgeek> jeffsch: i saw your email regarding kde documentation, feel free to move it to en
<LaserJock> jeffsch: I was looking at your email as well
<jeffsch> :)
<LaserJock> jeffsch: I was wondering what packaging you were needing? just somebody to try to package a fresh checkout?
<jeffsch> it needs to be put into a .deb and registered with scrollkeeper and tested to see what else (if anything) needs to be done to get it to work
<LaserJock> hmm, I'm not familiar enough with the packaging to do that very fast (I gotta get to bed soon).
<jeffsch> me too, and I won't have time until friday
<jeffsch> tuesday at the earliest
<LaserJock> well, I can take a look in the morning and/or I can get dholbach to take a look
<jeffsch> that would be nice :)
<jeffsch> the more eyes the better
<crimsun> which mailing list?
<LaserJock> -doc
* crimsun has a feeling he's not subscribed
<robotgeek> howdy crimsun 
<LaserJock> crimsun: oh, then you missed out on the mdke bug spamathon ;-)
<jsgotangco> let me fix that
<robotgeek> i got the most emails i've gotten in a day
<robotgeek> i also subscribed to the commits list :)
<crimsun> oh trust me, that still doesn't top when I was subbed to lkml, bugtraq, and debian-devel
<crimsun> poor mailhost exploded
<LaserJock> ouch
<jsgotangco> yeah
<robotgeek> my mail host is gmail :)
<LaserJock> hmm, I also need to ask dholbach about the debian/copyright file
<jsgotangco> you can ask enrico as well when he's around and not busy
<jsgotangco> he's whitelisted anyways
<crimsun> I get about 200 per day now, which is fairly manageable
<jsgotangco> i only read what interests me
<LaserJock> that's about what I get I think. Over Christmas I was at my in-laws and parent and both had 28.8 dialup. It was painful to read mail
<mpt> painful to *read* it, or to download it?
<mdke> mpt, they go to the mailing list
<mpt> mdke, so leaving the Launchpad ubuntu-doc team wouldn't help?
<mpt> rats
<mpt> I'll set up a filter then :-)
<mdke> mpt, we might want to consider a separate list I guess
<jsgotangco> let's just forward all bugs to mdke :D
<mpt> or just badger BjornT into implementing ProductSubscriptions
<mpt> and ProjectSubscriptions
<jsgotangco> oh he's been doing it?
<mpt> no, that's the problem :-)
<mdke> jeffsch, debian/install is the only file that needs to be changed for testing "en". just replace C with en
<mdke> (for those guides where you have implemented en)
<mdke> then to build, just do "debuild" in the trunk directory (with devscripts installed)
<robotgeek> hey mdke 
<mdke> mornin
<mdke> just going for a shower
<robotgeek> i got an email about some "size too big" should i resend individually?
<jsgotangco> sorry if i'm ignoring list queues or patches; i'm currently moving data from brisbane to LA :/
<robotgeek> jsgotangco: hmm, okay. i'll assume that i don't need to resend my email then :)
<jsgotangco> if its too big, then you'll have to resend it
<robotgeek> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
<jsgotangco> oh
<robotgeek> anyways, i'll just resend it
<jsgotangco> hold on
<jsgotangco> let me check first
<robotgeek> okay
<jsgotangco> how big are the attachments?
<jsgotangco> there's nothing on queue
<jsgotangco> i've already approved your last email
<jsgotangco> the one with 4 or 5 patches
<robotgeek> yeah, that one. cool
<robotgeek> i signed the files, is that going to affect anything?
<robotgeek> cause i don't see the attachments on the mailing list
<mdke> mpt, actually ideally I suppose the first email for a bug would go to the list, then none of the subsequent ones
<mdke> robotgeek, i see them
<mdke> 5 attachments
<robotgeek> mdke: cool
<robotgeek> alrite then, i'm off to bed :)
<bhuvan> mdke, ping
<mdke> bhuvan, pong
<bhuvan> mdke: shall i go ahead with s/(Desktop) Starter Guide/$1 Guide/gc
<mdke> bhuvan, sure go ahead.
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<jsgotangco> you should say "yes dear leader!"
* jsgotangco hides
<mdke> :(
<mdke> bhuvan, don't worry about the "en" version for now, I think
<mdke> just change the C version
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<jsgotangco> !
<mdke> can't get the damn "en" package working
* mdke wonders if scrollkeeper supports "en"
<mdke> bhuvan, oy, we'll need that script. Don't worry, I'll get it from the desktopguide version
<jsgPC> mdke, nice so shaunm prefers to keep C
<mdke> yeah
<jsgPC> might as well abide by it
<jsgPC> it makes good ground for further research though
<mdke> it think you're right
<mdke> s/it/i
<bhuvan> mdke, ok. why do we need that script btw ?
<mdke> bhuvan, it deals with translations
<bhuvan> mdke, ok
<bhuvan> mdke: i wish to discuss about list of server guide authors now if you have time
<bhuvan> mdke: i wish to include bshumate in list of contributors. till now his contribution is significant
<mdke> bhuvan, absolutely.
<mdke> all contributors should be in there
<bhuvan> mdke: all significant contributors imo!
<mdke> heh
<mdke> it's the license that counts
<mdke> but yeah, more or less the same thing
<bhuvan> ok. i also prefer to remove robert stoffers from the list as havnt contributed to server guide
<mdke> didn't he contribute to the sections which were taken from the faqguide?
<bhuvan> no idea. if he have contributed to faqguide, sure i must retain then
<mdke> the faqguide was largely his work
<bhuvan> cool
<bhuvan> fine, as i joined after breezy i am unaware. i'll retain, thanks
<mdke> np, nice work on adding more sections btw
<bhuvan> ok, imo i have almost covered all possible sections
<bhuvan> we have covered atleast 80% i guess
<bhuvan> looking forward for contributions on "help wanted" sections
<bhuvan> btw, as someone suggested during a ccm, i have planned to request fabbione to have a look and get his valuable feedbacks/corrections/additions if any
<mdke> excellent idea
<jsgotangco> who the heck is editing my timetable page
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-doc:jsgotangco] :  Ubuntu Documentation Team - general discussion - backlog at http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs | Website http://doc.ubuntu.com | Get involved: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam | SVN - https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos | Please observe the Ubuntu community code of conduct @ http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct | Docteam members in LP: Please list your ideal meeting time at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocteamMeetingTimes
<robotgeek> hey jjesse , the preview should work now
<robotgeek> kkathman and i are working on the desktop guide
<mhz_translatin> any one here could make sure my english is well written (369 word for a small article about edubuntu) ?
* mhz_translatin is not native english speaker
<robotgeek_work> sure, i can proofread
<mhz_translatin> thx robotgeek_work 
<mhz_translatin> I'll provide a wiki url for you
<robotgeek_work> cool
<mhz_translatin> robotgeek_work: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/MauricioHernandez/ScrapBook/ArticleForJuliux
<mhz_translatin> I appreciate your effort
<mhz_translatin> and help
<robotgeek_work> mhz_translatin: sure, no problem
* mhz_translatin gets a coffe now
<mhz_translatin> +e
<robotgeek_work> mhz_translatin: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/7789
<robotgeek_work> mhz_translatin: also it might be good to rephrase "When we say Edubuntu is a system, we are indeed talking about a set of over 90 applications shipped with Edubuntu so they become integrated inside the educational curriculum at different academic levels, ages and skills." not to use first person speech
<robotgeek_work> damn, long paste . sorry
<robotgeek_work> mhz_translatin: http://robotgeek.org/wiki/Main/Temp i've rewritten showing yours and mine
<mhz_translatin> robotgeek: re
* mhz reading
#ubuntu-doc 2006-02-05
<mhz> robotgeek: thx. it seems I had not big problems (I thought I had)
<robotgeek> mhz: no, it was alrite for the most part
<mhz> cool
<mhz> i feel better, more confident now, thx
<robotgeek> mhz: glad to help
<mhz> i can readproof spanish :D but that's not a service needed yet (at least, EdubuntuCookbook is still under developement)
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> LaserJock, hello
<LaserJock> theCore: did you see the commit I did yesterday?
<theCore> I can't, I had a crash this week after a power failure, and I still waiting for a new hard drive ( I'm currently on a LiveCD )
<theCore> SCSI drives are so delicate... 
<robotgeek> i dunno if my patches have been committed
<LaserJock> theCore: bummer, that really stinks
<LaserJock> robotgeek_work: you can't tell from ubuntu-doc-commit?
<seanSnyder> anyone there?
<LaserJock> yeah
<seanSnyder> can i ask some technical questions?
<LaserJock> are they documentation related?
<seanSnyder> no
<seanSnyder> what channel should i join?
<LaserJock> then probably #ubuntu is a  better
<seanSnyder> coo, thanks
<bshumate> sepa: try specifying the full path in the system() call, e.g. : system(/sbin/iptables)
<bshumate> (try specifying the right channel) ;-)
<robotgeek_work> LaserJock: hmm, it does not show up there, so i think it has not been committed
<LaserJock> robotgeek: oh, is that the email with like 5 patches?
<robotgeek> yeah
<LaserJock> hmm, if it was a small thing I would do it but I think jjesse would probably be the guy to do it
<robotgeek> LaserJock: it's just 5 patches, all small :)
<LaserJock> robotgeek: done.
<LaserJock> robotgeek: gotta go now
<robotgeek> LaserJock_away: thanks
<mhz> had you seen this 'initiative' ?  http://www.canon-europe.com/Support/Software/Linux/registration.asp?ComponentID=312222&SourcePageID=312225#1
<jsgotangco> "if we release drivers matching your requirements"
<jsgotangco> canon printers are so expensive though
<mhz> jsgotangco: well, not in Chile
<mhz> Epson is more expensive here
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mhz> and Lexmarx is cheap and works okidoki
<robotgeek> hey jsgotangco 
<mhz> jsgotangco: I finally got a PDF from the Education Magazine that issued my article on Edubuntu in December. It's in spanish so I wikied to ubuntu-cl.org  but do you think this should also be wikied in ubuntu ?
<mhz> (they printed 5000)
<mhz> (and it is distributed in schools for free)
<jsgotangco> sure
<LaserJock> robotgeek: did my commit work for you? I just changed one tiny thing
<robotgeek> LaserJock: seemed to have worked, i changed a few more things again. 
<robotgeek> thanks for the commit
<LaserJock> hopefully I don't get flogged for it ;-)
<robotgeek> LaserJock: ah, no. it only messes with kubuntu desktop guide, so no i issues i think
* robotgeek waits till kubuntu-desktop gets installed. i now have all -desktops installed. *sigh*
<LaserJock> robotgeek: well, if you need more patches tonight I will be away for about an hour and then I can do some more if you like
<robotgeek> LaserJock: no, i think i'll hold on for a while, and complete this chapter
<LaserJock> robotgeek: ok, np
<Burgundavia> ok, C just emailed me about 1 min ago to ask if I had started writing yet. I just got home 1 min ago. Bloody telepathic gf
<robotgeek> hey Burgundavia , writing what?
* robotgeek wonders why ppl keep complaining about gf's, lol
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, an article on Ubuntu
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: nice
<robotgeek> i just moved to kubuntu, removed ubuntu. let's see how it goes :)
<Burgundavia> gah, lost another one
<robotgeek> most since i'm writing the desktop guide :)
<Burgundavia> bah, Kubuntu ;)
<robotgeek> the most irritating behaviour in gnome is that of rhyhtmbox, when you click the "x" button, it doesn't go to systray like rest of the apps (gaim, etc). it closes
<robotgeek> i could quit ubuntu for that one reason!
<Burgundavia> actually, that is a bug in gaim, not rb
<Burgundavia> clicking X should close
<robotgeek> Burgundavia: that's the systray plugin in gaim
<Burgundavia> regardless, any X should close the application
<robotgeek> i prefer the move to systray thing. 
<robotgeek> and hence, i use kde :)
<Burgundavia> that an example of why I don't use KDE. Crazy defaults
<Burgundavia> create another button for minimzing, don't overload the exit one
<robotgeek> who ever quits their audio player? :)
<Burgundavia> when they want to shutdown?
<Burgundavia> or change tasks?
<robotgeek> i guess we will end up arguing over personal preferences, let's leave it as it is :)
<Burgundavia> actually, it is not about personal preferences
<Burgundavia> it is looking at good defaults
<robotgeek> i happen to like kde's default behaviour better
<LaserJock> hi theCore 
<theCore> hello!
<theCore> did you worked on the packaging guide?
<LaserJock> yes, a little bit. I added a skeleton of the structure. Not really any content but it gives us more of an outline.
<theCore> will try to check out just the packaging guide
<LaserJock> yeah, doc.ubuntu.com has been updated since I did it
<theCore> oh, you fixed the license 
<LaserJock> yes
<LaserJock> theCore: so what do you think of my changes?
<theCore> LaserJock, it is quite good
<LaserJock> theCore: I changed it slightly from what is on UbuntuPackagingGuide but I think it will work better
<theCore> LaserJock, ok I got a checkout
<LaserJock> theCore: great, just the packaging guide?
<theCore> yep
<theCore> should we keep Ankur Kotwal as the creator of the guide ?
<jsgotangco> you can probably have it as original author
<jsgotangco> brb reboot
<LaserJock> theCore: I thought I took him off, but I'm not sure what to do about authorship
<LaserJock> theCore: oh, are you talking about the .omf file?
<theCore> yes
<theCore> can I add myself as a contributor ?
<LaserJock> hmm, yes. I need to fix some stuff in there. The license is wrong too
<theCore> I fixed it
<theCore> I going to sent it to you but, anyway ...
<LaserJock> the ok fine
<theCore> what do you use for editing the .xml ?
<theCore> vi ?
<LaserJock> vim actually
<LaserJock> I do a lot of editing from home so I need good CLI tools
<theCore> vi and vim is quite the same ;) 
<theCore> on ubuntu at least
<jsgotangco> has anyone experienced installing from a hard drive?
<theCore> jsgotangco, what do you mean 
<jsgotangco> instead of using a CD, you boot from a HD to install
<jsgotangco> fedora has this
<jsgotangco> but ubuntu doesn't
<theCore> it's the same as a cd isn't it ?
<jsgotangco> well you can't just dump an iso to a drive then boot
<LaserJock> theCore: ok, just commited some changes to bookinfo and the .omf
<theCore> great, now I doesn't have anything to send you ;P
<LaserJock> well get to work then ;-)
<theCore> I will try to work on some intro stuff tomorrow 
<theCore> but I need to go bed, cya later
<LaserJock> me too cya 
* crimsun reads DocumentationTeam/Projects
<LaserJock> I don't know if that is very updated
<crimsun> haven't gotten to https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos yet, 'tis all
<LaserJock> hmm, what do you guys think about this email to -doc about having the server documentation readable from a console (non-GUI)?
<crimsun> sounds like a great idea, actually
<crimsun> what format?
<LaserJock> I don't know
<LaserJock> but I got to thinking. A lot of people wouldn't necessarily have yelp or a browser around (except maybe lynx or something similar) if they are doing a server install
<LaserJock> crimsun: if you have a minute could you look over http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/packagingguide/C/index.html
<crimsun> LaserJock: it's loaded, I'm just reading the instructions for svn
<crimsun> I gotta learn the patch submission process ;-)
<LaserJock> just use svn diff and send the patches to the mailing list
<LaserJock> hmm, do you think we could make man pages for the server install. I wonder if something like docboock2x-man would work
<crimsun> I was going to suggest man pages, heh
<LaserJock> although an html file that was lynx friendly would probably work too
<robitaille> humm...someone added a link to an article about Automatix on the Fridge...
<jsgotangco> i thought fridge only allowed a few select to post?
<Madpilot> the "Missing Batteries" news story?
<robitaille> yes.  And it's Jeff who posted it
<jsgotangco> robitaille, do you know newsvine.com?
<jsgotangco> well its a PCWorld article...
<robitaille> jsgotangco,  yes.  finally got an invitee a couple of days ago.  Haven't really played with it yet.
<jsgotangco> robitaille, oh cool..i thought it was something that would fancy you
<robitaille> :)
<jsgotangco> oh great automatix
<robotgeek> why do i come around when there's bad news?
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, http://blog.madduck.net/travel/2006.01.27-airplane-security
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: Transport Canada (and other bodies) have documented cases of standard pocket calculators screwing with nav/comm equipment in small aircraft
<Madpilot> electronics are screwy, I guess
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, that is what I remembered. I shall blog accordingly
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: I can't cite, but I believe that the bandwidth that GPS operates in is also very, very susceptible to interference.
<Madpilot> GPS signals are also very low-powered; GPS antenna are correspondingly sensitive...
* Burgundavia gets in a "For those who care about ..." blog post
<Madpilot> "For those who care about not crashing"? :P
<Burgundavia> why do I still beat my head against FF?
<robitaille> you don't have to do....free software is all about freedom :)
<Burgundavia> indeed, but I can't seem to get up the steam to actually install Epiphany on my machine
<robitaille> I have tried Epiphany, and I can't seem to get the hang of it, and always go back to FF.
<Burgundavia> yes, I found that at first, when I only tried it for 5 minutes
<Burgundavia> then I tried it full time on my laptop and now I love it
<Burgundavia> you have to stop thinking cludgy hacks
<robitaille> I tried it for a few days then I gave up.  I have zero problem with FF, so might as well continue using it
<Burgundavia> epiphany is advancing quite rapidly now, because they are freed from the burden of having to develop the backend, which is most time consuming part
<Burgundavia> hmm, those statements are not casual
<Burgundavia> causal
<Burgundavia> better, being freed from developing a backend allows them to develop the frontend rapidly. They have also attracted new people
<robitaille> which sounds very much for the argument the phoenix/firebird/firefox developpers were saying when developping it on top of the mozilla source code a couple of years ago :)
<robitaille> s/for the argument/like the argument
<Burgundavia> yes, and now FF is far from the light/fast browser (if it ever was)
<robitaille> personally, I never thought it was that fast or light compared to Mozilla.  But I initially switched to it a few years back because I like its default look better than mozilla
<Burgundavia> and for the windows crowd it is great
<Burgundavia> it is just the right frontend for a gnome (or kde) distro
<mdke> orning
<Burgundavia> salut mdke 
<robitaille> hi mdke 
<Burgundavia> make that not the right frontend
<robotgeek> morning mdke 
<mdke> no, orning
* mdke insists
<mdke> Madpilot, get your commit access?
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=123569 <-- oh joy
<Madpilot> mdke: I did, haven't even had a chance to de-GPG the message yet though
<mdke> ok, good
<mdke> Burgundavia, better vote :)
<Madpilot> I wasn't really reading subject lines this morning when I got it, clicked, got this massive block of gibberish... took me a second to realize what it was!
<mdke> i was thinking we should send out a poll for what tips should be included in the desktopguide
<mdke> i don't follow the support forums/ml so I don't know what always comes up
<Burgundavia> I don't there is anything large we are missing
<mdke> no, but it would be nice to get the small things too
<Burgundavia> you want to post something in the main help forum?
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> for example, how to get the location bar always displaying in nautilus is something I see a lot on the italian ML
<mdke> i'll post when I get to work
<mdke> its a way of getting people to read the WIP guide too, get feedback
<mdke> -> work
<Burgundavia> mdke, done
<Burgundavia> http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=123836
<Madpilot> cool, someone added the "Documentation Team" tag to my ubuntuforum user info
<Burgundavia> you know, more people should watch Jon Stewart. Watching him compare Oprah ripping apart that million author guy vs. the press pussy-footing around bush et. al was hilarious
<robotgeek> Daily Show is great, so i Colbert Report
<robotgeek> is*
<Burgundavia> in a recent poll, most people between 20 and 25 get something liek three-quarters of their news via the Daily Show
<Burgundavia> get their news (geez I am tired)
<robotgeek> yeah, he seems to be the only guy asking the questions that must be asked
<Madpilot> crap, I might have forgotten my GPG private password... dumb...
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, store it somewhere, hardcopy
<robotgeek> ouch
<robotgeek> damn, i wasted one who day themeing kde, and it doesn't even look nice. *sigh*
<Burgundavia> welcome to KDE
<Burgundavia> and Kubuntu is praised for theming KDE fairly nicely
<robotgeek> gnome's themeing seems to be very easy compared to this. i am trying this on breezy, so maybe it is known to suck. 
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: too late to store it, this is my current key... damn damn damn
<robotgeek> Madpilot: did you create a revocation key initially?
<Madpilot> robotgeek: I don't think so...
<Madpilot> <-- utter noob to crypto... can you tell? :P
<robotgeek> Madpilot: i'm not too experienced myself, i learnt quite a bit editing the GPGkey wiki article
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, http://www.linclips.com/index.php?page=clip&id=21 <-- how to make gnome look hedious
<robotgeek> looks like some crappy XP theme
<Madpilot> blow it, I'll sleep on it and maybe my GPG password will come back to me...
<robotgeek> i liked xubuntu the best, i must say. though my roomate had some difficulty using it
<Madpilot> Burgundavia: "Linux XP"? Begging for a lawsuit, are they?
<Burgundavia> interesting how gnome manages to be turned into a better XP copy than KDE, even though most people try and do the altter
<Burgundavia> Madpilot, they are russian based
<robotgeek> Madpilot: after you recollect, create a revocation key. The next time you forget it, you can revoke your key. 
<robotgeek> Madpilot: how many ppl have signed your key?
<Burgundavia> robotgeek, AFAIK, none
<Burgundavia> given that I am related to him and most of his linux/ubuntu stuff has happened through me
<Madpilot> robotgeek: nobody so far, but it's on the keyservers
<robotgeek> Madpilot: hmm, it would be worse if someone had signed it. 
<robotgeek> Madpilot: hopefully oyur password will come back to you
<Madpilot> robotgeek: I'll keep bashing away at it... irritating, though
<Burgundavia> jiyuu0@kitech.com.my has been removed from ubuntu-users <--- hmm, wonder if this means anything
<Burgundavia> night all
* mdke scolds jsgotangco for not following the DocumentationTeam wiki page naming convention for his meeting times page
<jsgotangco> :(
<jsgotangco> sorry sir
<mdke> shall I rename it?
<mdke> otherwise, there is little point having reorganised the pages
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> please do
<mdke> cool
<mdke> i've created https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/Meeting as well
<jsgotangco> thanks i won't do it next time o great one
<mdke> heh
<jsgotangco> argg en changes
<jsgotangco> dum dum dee dum
<jsgotangco> ugghhh the ff fonts in dapper look horrible in our website
<jjesse> i actually dropped firefox and use only konq
<jsgotangco> yeah but konq has some weird fancy rendering on text sometimes
<jsgotangco> the most sane i use is actually epiphany
<jsgotangco> brb i'll just boot back to breezy
<jjesse> jsgotangco: w/ vmplayer i boot into breezy and for testing and working on docs i just use my vmplayer
<jjesse> so i don't have to reboot
<jsgotangco> nahh im too lazy to go to the other machine downstairs
<jsgotangco> and this laptop has all 4 OS that i need
<mdke> jsgotangco, which website?
<jsgotangco> ubuntu.com
<mdke> other websites are ok?
<jsgotangco> haven't checked that much
<mdke> maybe its a bug in our website
<jjesse> simple question, can i just replace Ubuntu w/ Kubuntu in the kubuntu desktop guide?
<k31th> yo guys
<LaserJock> hi k31th 
<k31th> LaserJock: Just watching this video on google about ubuntu
<LaserJock> I see
<k31th> and the guy who started ubuntu, hes got the right ideal man
<k31th> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1165754797197197496&q=ubuntu
<LaserJock> oh yes I've seen that one, very inspiring to me
<LaserJock> that was at Debconf5 I think
<k31th> yeah its very good 
<k31th> guy i work with was like wat are you watching... then he was sat there watching it about 2 mins alter
<k31th> followed by "im deff putting ubuntu on my laptop"
<LaserJock> good
<k31th> all my windows boxes are now ubuntu, 
<LaserJock> cool
<k31th> all are servers are debain / will be debian
<k31th> apart from samaba box as ubuntu worked with the sata card out of the box ( i was being lazy)
<k31th> any way its about time i gave some thing back to this distro. 
<k31th> i need to start writing some docs. If im of any use 
<LaserJock> sure, we always welcome contribution
<k31th> sweet, you guys have a mailing list ?
<LaserJock> yes ubuntu-doc 
<LaserJock> look at lists.ubuntu.com
<k31th> also how do i remove myself from the list as its filling my gmail up... i will create its own inbox at work 
<LaserJock> you can go to the list as if you were going to subscribe and there should be a place to unsubscribe at the bottom, I think
<k31th> edubuntu is that education ?
<LaserJock> yeah
<k31th> Nice 
<LaserJock> like for use in schools, etc.
<k31th> One of our clients is keen on linux 
<k31th> theres a school / college 
<k31th> 1500 users, 
<k31th> currently running CentOS as there server (dont ask ) 
<LaserJock> edubuntu has some nice stuff
<k31th> is it a desktop yes ?
<LaserJock> they have a irc channel too I believe
<k31th> nice 
<k31th> ill have a word with him when iv fixed his server :p
<k31th> have to convert all the user accounts to ldap :(
<k31th> its not emailing me :p
<LaserJock> what?
<k31th> the mailing list 
<k31th> trying to remove an email address atm
<LaserJock> oh, sometimes it takes a long time
<k31th> LaserJock: like waiting for email from MS Exchange :p
<LaserJock> I wouldn't know ;-)
<k31th> LaserJock: your lucky 
<k31th> im afraid i have to offer support fr such tripe
<LaserJock> I've always used linux for work and such. I only use Windows at home.
<k31th> LaserJock: games ?
<LaserJock> probably about 50/50 don't do a whole lot of gaming though
<k31th> all our server our linux, however we took over a bunch of clients and they used exchange 
<k31th> im slowly converting them
<LaserJock> that's good
<k31th> indeed
<k31th> you heard about this goobuntu thing 
<k31th> googles own distro based on ubuntu 
<LaserJock> yeah, lots of questions about that today
<k31th> yeah, they could just add support to ubuntu surly ?
<LaserJock> I've heard it is just an internal thing for them to use
<k31th> yeah same
<k31th> according to the register
<LaserJock> anyway, what areas of documentation would you be interested in?
<k31th> well wat needs to be writen ?
<LaserJock> everything ;-)
<k31th> ha ha
<LaserJock> it is an ongoing project
<LaserJock> you can always proofread etc.
<k31th> well wat is dapper looking like is it stable ?
<LaserJock> the os or the docs?
<k31th> os 
<k31th> i use ubuntu at home and at work and have used debian for a few years 
<LaserJock> well, hard to say exactly. I've been running it since ~October and haven't had too much problem
<k31th> LaserJock: where you running it to ?
<k31th> and to do wat ?
<LaserJock> I use it for my desktop at work and do packaging on it
<k31th> you see, im putting a webhead in a data center asap... ATM im thinking of putting debian on it
<k31th> however i have a file server at work running ubuntu
<k31th> so i could do some server based docs if you wish 
<LaserJock> yeah there is a server guide under way
<k31th> is there some where i can look at what needs doing and pic some ? and a guide on how you want the docs writen etc 
<LaserJock> doc.ubuntu.com has the current documentation we are working on
<k31th> nice
<LaserJock> wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam should get you started
<LaserJock> but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/GettingStarted has the info you are looking for
<k31th> nice
<k31th> ill get started right after i do this ldap thing :D 
* k31th thinks probably 5am :D
<LaserJock> good, you can get the doc teams svn repo and make patches and then send them to the mailing list
<LaserJock> that is the best way
<k31th> kool
<k31th> working on this RHE box is painfull
<bazz-> hi all
<bazz-> wouldn't it be nice to have an ftp/http/nfs based installer, just like in debian?
<Kamping_Kaiser> not for most ppl.
<bazz-> the thing with pxeboot, dhcpd, tftpd etc. is quite a lot of work
<bazz-> ftp installs etc. would make it easier
<jjesse> or for those that don't have high speed internet
<Kamping_Kaiser> most ppl install ubuntu off cd. and dont need network install
<bazz-> yes but a few do
<bazz-> it's like one would say, most people use microsoft, why even bother trying linux
<bazz-> ftp/http/nfs installs have always been there with debian, and even redhat 
<bazz-> at least a floppy disk which allows to boot an ubuntu installer would be a nice option imo
<jjesse> dell no longer provides floppy drives
<jjesse> have to pay extra
<bazz-> well, a new dell should be able to handle a normal isntallation procedure
<bazz-> i'm talking about older machines with troubles reading media etc.
<bazz-> there's an article on the wiki, which points at the debian sarge install floppies
<bazz-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installation/WithFloppies?highlight=%28install%29
<bazz-> anyways, i'd appreciate something like this could be done instead the really annoying and long procedure with tftpd and pxeboot
<bazz-> *if
* bazz- going to sleep
<bazz-> laters
<Kamping_Kaiser> later
<Kamping_Kaiser> i just noticed somthing - the default page in firefox for dapper says "each release is supported for 18 months". should there be some comment that this release is one of the "some" that are  supported for longer?
<collegeboy360> test test, is this working
<Kamping_Kaiser> no :)
<collegeboy360> is there anyone willing to give me a tip on install Ubunto
<collegeboy360> lol
<collegeboy360> every time I try to boot it, it show the Ubuntu logo, but it reboot the pc after I press enter
<Kamping_Kaiser> you might want to try asking in #ubuntu itself, because theres more ppl in there who might be able to help
<collegeboy360> oh, ok
<k31th> anyone alive ?
<robotgeek> yeah k31th 
<k31th> kool just looking at what stuff to write 
<robotgeek> k31th: you can help out with the kubuntu-docs, if you wish :)
<k31th> robotgeek: watsup ?
<k31th> i dont use kubuntu :D
<robotgeek> heh, okay. i'll let you go then :)
<k31th> well iv installed it in the past, just dont run it atm
<robotgeek> k31th: the best thing to do would be to go to doc.ubuntu.com, look at a few ubuntu guides, and start sending in patches
<k31th> nice
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-29
<mpt> I've just moved <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AirCard8X0> from wiki.ubuntu.com, but I can't easily tell what pages it should be linked from. Anyone who reads this and knows what they're doing is welcome to continue :-)
<tonyyarusso> mpt: wifi info?
<mpt> tonyyarusso, there seem to be a variety of confusing wireless index pages
<tonyyarusso> ah
<tonyyarusso> !wifi
* tonyyarusso looks
<tonyyarusso> bah, no bot
<tonyyarusso> wow, that is bad
<poningru>  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs
<tonyyarusso> yeah, got there eventually ;)
<mpt> "WifiDocs" is not a good name for a page
<mpt> for the same reason that we don't put "Doc" at the end of every page name
<okaratas> oh my god, i writing the las update ubuntu server guide turkish translate..
<okaratas> http://www.ozgurkaratas.com/doc/Ubuntu_Sunucu_Rehberi.pdf
<okaratas> i writing ubuntu server for turkish guide
<LaserJock> cool
<okaratas> thank you LaserJock
<okaratas> i am go to sleep, good bye
<jbruckman> where's the doc for the wiki format?
<jbruckman> anyone?
<LaserJock> hmm?
<LaserJock> like how to write wiki pages?
<Madpilot> generally, they're written with a keyboard </not_really_helpful>
<LaserJock> Madpilot: :p
<Madpilot> hey, it's Sunday night, and I have another damn cold. What do you expect? ;)
<LaserJock> for you to be in bed asleep instead of on here
<Madpilot> meh. too early yet.
<mpt> jbruckman, is <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnEditing> the sort of thing you're looking for?
<jbruckman> mpt: thanks, yeah
* mpt scowls at Madpilot and gets him a hot lemon-and-honey drink
<jenda> What license is the content of the wiki under?
<somerville32> Creative Commons, I believe (or will be)
<LaserJock> jenda: which wiki?
<jenda> official, LaserJock
<jenda> wiki.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> help.ubuntu.com/community is also an official wiki ;-)
<jenda> hehe :)
<LaserJock> and the license of wiki.ubuntu.com is really up in the air
<jenda> it has a different license?
<jenda> ok
<jenda> and for current practical purposes it is?
<LaserJock> the help.ubuntu.com/community is CC now
<LaserJock> umm, not really sure what to say there
<LaserJock> I think of it as public domain
<LaserJock> but that's not really it
<LaserJock> mdke would probably whack me for saying that :-)
<LaserJock> we need to write up a new spec for wiki.ubuntu.com
<LaserJock> they thought about doing CC like the help wiki
<LaserJock> but that can cause a fair amount of problems of it's own
<willvdl> popey ping
<popey> willvdl: pong
<willvdl> Hi there
<popey> Hello
<willvdl> jsut going through screencasts
<willvdl> and wanted to know what player you folks normally use?
<popey> personally I use vlc
<willvdl> With the oggs, I get sound but no picture
<popey> do you have an intel based chipset video card?
<willvdl> yip
<popey> bug :)
<willvdl> ah
<willvdl> I'll use the mpeg's then :)
<popey> I suspect it may be the same
<popey> its the size of the frame 1024x768 that causes the issue I think
<willvdl> urk
<popey> which is the same for all the videos
<willvdl> OK, I'll look into trying on nvidia
<popey> but I cant test it because I dont have any intel chipset machines
<willvdl> thanks. I thought I was missing something
<popey> you are not the first to report this unfortunately :(
<willvdl> I should have ckecked
<popey> its not a problem
<willvdl> popey, just for record, the mpeg4 files work with intel chipset but not the ogg or mpeg files
<popey> thank you for that
<willvdl> just to check, the text should be legible in the mpeg4 files?
<LaserJock> bah
<nixternal> bah bah black sheep
<LaserJock> mdz wrote an email to -devel that he wasn't even aware the packaging guide existed until recently
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> wth?
<nixternal> didn't realise. I would think different on that one
<LaserJock> they were writing up the "ultimate" developer resource wiki page
<LaserJock> and the packaging guide wasn't on it :/
<LaserJock> oh well :-)
<nixternal> hrmm, I wonder why it isn't
<LaserJock> because nobody knew it existed
<LaserJock> apparently
<nixternal> wow, they have everything else dealing with packaging, but the guide
<nixternal> hell, even a guide from Debian Women :)
<LaserJock> yep
<LaserJock> that's a good guide too
<LaserJock> I don't know why the Debian doc people don't use it more
<nixternal> I am sorry, but if they didn't realise there wasn't a packaging guide already done (and a damn good one at that), then it makes me feel as if they don't even know WE as a team really exist or documentation for that part
<nixternal> that or they aren't following the MOTUs at all
<nixternal> the packaging guide is all the way at the bottom in teh "Other Resources"
<nixternal> wow,
<LaserJock> well, that was just added too
<LaserJock> because I emailed
<nixternal> ahhh
<nixternal> I think the Ubuntu Packaging Guide adn the Debian New Maintainers Guide are the 2 major ones
<nixternal> for everything else, I just open the book of crimsun :)
<LaserJock> heh
<nixternal> ooh, I just got my 1098-T "2006 Tuition Statement" for taxes
<nixternal> I can't believe how much school costs. I don't pay anything so I never see the bills, but oh wow is it expensive
<nixternal> and I don't see how Andreas Lloyd ever got into Anthropology. It is by far the dryest subject I have ever been involved in
<Burgwork> nixternal: that depends on the person
<nixternal> I guess, but it is dry
<Burgwork> to you, yes
<nixternal> Logical Philosophy on the otherhand is pretty damn cool
<Burgwork> to others, not so much
<LaserJock> I thought Andreas' project was sweet
<nixternal> actually Linguistical Anthropology isn't to bad
<LaserJock> ugg, I don't like languages ;-)
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> then you would like prehistoric linguistics
<nixternal> however that is an oxymoron I guess, since prehistoric didn't have a written language
<LaserJock> \o/ I have MS Office back!
<nixternal> prehistoric ^times
<nixternal> eww
<LaserJock> I can't believe it. I emailed this guy like months ago
<nixternal> people at school are really liking OpenOffice.org. I have handed out a ton of this broke college student CDs
<LaserJock> heh
<LaserJock> well I have it for free
<LaserJock> I just have to get the campus IT guys to come install it
<nixternal> well I have OO.o and KO for free :)
<nixternal> ahh, campus IT guys, just under those working for Geek Squad
<LaserJock> sure, but OO.o just isn't there yet for 100% of my needs, unfortunately
<LaserJock> like Acrobat Reader
<nixternal> Excel must be your big one then?
<LaserJock> I *have* to have acroread
<LaserJock> no
<LaserJock> I don't really use Excel
<nixternal> what are you doing in Word that you can do in OO.o?
<LaserJock> and if I did I'd use OO.o or Gnumeric
<nixternal> funky formatting
<LaserJock> not Word either ;-)
<LaserJock> PowerPoint
<nixternal> oh no
<nixternal> ya
<LaserJock> that's the killer
<nixternal> i Knew that was next
<nixternal> PP and Impress are pretty damn close I thought
<nixternal> I don't know, I haven't used Office in a long time
<nixternal> I have been using OO.o since the StarOffice days with Corel Wordperfect as well
<LaserJock> well, I have to do this on mac and Windows machines
<LaserJock> the OS X OO.o is pretty bad
<nixternal> really?
<LaserJock> yeah
<nixternal> I just found out on Thursday they even had one
<LaserJock> there's also a fork called NeoOffice
<nixternal> One of the kids in my C++ class uses it and loves it he said
<LaserJock> well, I have to work with all non-OO.o users
<LaserJock> it's difficult
<nixternal> I have been trying to use KOffice more and more as it is becoming a very solid competitor, but there are just some annoyances I have with it right now
<nixternal> is there a noticeable loss between PowerPoint and Impress?
<LaserJock> oh yes
<nixternal> I haven't looked into it.
<LaserJock> many graphics are messed up
<LaserJock> you lose formulas (which is the bad one for me)
<nixternal> ahh, same with the Word issues then
<LaserJock> I hardly ever use Word so I don't mind
<nixternal> I will have to see if my old man has any pp files to look at
<LaserJock> the only Office component I ever really use is PowerPoint
<nixternal> all of mine are either OO.o or KOffice (raphink and KO)
<LaserJock> well, the biggest problem right now for me with OO.o on OS X is it constantly crashes
<LaserJock> if I can stay in Ubuntu everything's fine
<nixternal> ya
<LaserJock> but once I try to go into a mixed environment it gets rough
<nixternal> wow, I can't find one ppt file on my old man's server
<LaserJock> especially when it's a uni environment
<nixternal> I am wondering if he has converted all of his ppt's into pdf's
<nixternal> i see a ton of pdfs
<nixternal> LaserJock: wth is a Time Domain Reflectometer?
<nixternal> wikipedia has the answer for everything
<nixternal> reminds me of my wife, knows it all
<LaserJock> brb
<willvdl> nixternal, isn't it one of those transmission line testing thingies?
<nixternal> willvdl: Ya, it tests twisted pair and all kinds of things. I was reading a patent my dad has filed and seen the documentation for it.
<nixternal> damn nerds :)
<willvdl> it's a very simple process used in field theory. applies to any kind of transmission line
<willvdl> you could, arguably, use it in a water pipe
<nixternal> willvdl: water pipe? I will leave that one alone :)
<willvdl> you never know
* mdke hellos
<mdke> mpt: I put the spec on the TB agenda for tomorrow evening
<LaserJock> hi mdke
<nixternal> hiya mdke
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke edgy * r3739 /ubuntu/desktopguide/de/ (15 files): updated German translation
<mdke> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> hiya mdke
<jjesse> hmm wireless at this hotel is slow
<Ubugtu> New bug: #45944 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Ubuntu Server Guide Not Installed On Servers" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/45944
<tonyyarusso> What format is the server guide in underneath, and what program reads that format outside of X?
<tonyyarusso> Docbook I thought, but no idea what reads that
<jjesse> its docbook but built into html
<tonyyarusso> jjesse: Ah, so any browser would be fine then eh?
<jjesse> yeah
* jjesse away eating dinner
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-30
<Kamping_Kaiser> i'm about to go through (some) of the doco shipped with dapper. if i find bits that are out of date/wrong, is the docteam interested in hearing about it?
<Kamping_Kaiser> and should i ask a similar question of the gnome guys too?
<jjesse> yes
<j1mc> are there any xubuntu-doc folks on here?
<j1mc> i was interested in getting involved with the doc work for feisty
<jjesse> i don't know about xubuntu-doc folks
<j1mc> jjesse, what do you mean that you "don't know about them"?
<jjesse> i don't know if they are hear or not
<j1mc> oh . . .   np.  have you been helping out w/ any of the doc projects?
<jjesse> some, been really busy on other things for feisty
<j1mc> i'm not super technical, so i was just thinking of getting a start in proofreading docs and filing bug reports and the like
<j1mc> is that generally a good way to start, or would you recommend something else?
<jjesse> that's a great way to start
<j1mc> cool . . .
<tonyyarusso> Proofreading is great, yeah
<jjesse> j1mc: that's how i started
<j1mc> jjesse, thanks . . .
<j1mc> i was thinking of starting with the xubuntu documentation because i use xubuntu, and they haven't had as much doc help.
<jjesse> j1mc
<jjesse> doh
<jjesse> np
<Kamping_Kaiser> hm. sorry, i seem to have dropped.
<Kamping_Kaiser> i missed anything after <Kamping_Kaiser> jjesse, was that to me? (incase anything was said to me)
<somerville32> Kamping_Kaiser, We didn't get that
<somerville32> "[23:04]  <Kamping_Kaiser> and should i ask a similar question of the gnome guys too?"
<Kamping_Kaiser> somerville32, ah, thanks. the last i recieved was <j1mc> i was interested in getting involved with the doc work for feisty. i must have timed oiut in the minute before i replied :/
<Kamping_Kaiser> oh, and thinking of dapper, is the seperate dapper checkout from here ok for checking stuff against? (is there a newer repo?) https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/branches/dapper
<nixternal> https://docteam.ubuntu.com/repos/trunk
<nixternal> that is what we are working out of for Feisty
<LaserJock> mdke: \o/
<LaserJock> mdke: < sabdfl> mdke finally talked me round :-)
<mdke> hmm?
<mdke> oh shit, forgot about that damn meeting
<mdke> oh well, wouldn't have made it anyhow
<mdke> so, approved?
<LaserJock> it just got approved
<mdke> great
<LaserJock> < sabdfl> do we have full HTML capability on that page?
<LaserJock> < sabdfl> will ask the folks working on the web site to work with mdke on the page
<LaserJock> < sabdfl> need to be able to present a classy picture
<mdke> ok, noted.
<mdke> thanks LaserJock
<LaserJock> np
<LaserJock> there's some other stuff in there
<LaserJock> mdz thinks it could use a little tweaking
<LaserJock> < mdz> we can fine-tune the page as needed
<mdke> which page?
<LaserJock> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpAndSupportAccess is all I know
<LaserJock> I'm guessing your mockup
<mdke> ok
<mpt> mdke, hooray
* mdke hugs mpt
* mpt wonders why the spec is still marked as "Pending Approval"
<mdke> mpt: something ominous from Mark
<mdke> 10:41	sabdfl	the offer of community and commercial support will get more prominence by release
<mdke> 10:41	sabdfl	i expect that to be a little contentious
<mdke> dunno what he means, but who cares, it's approved
<mpt> ok, we can remind mdz to flip the switch on LP
<mdke> sure
<mpt> meanwhile we need to come up with a beautiful, prominent, and *compact* way of presenting those options on the front page
<mdke> mpt: right, but we can't rewrite yelp
<mdke> I think we should get a working patch first, then we can play around with it
#ubuntu-doc 2007-01-31
<mdke> mpt_: seems one can approve these things oneself
<mpt_> mdke, I couldn't because as far as Launchpad knows I'm not involved :-)
<mdke> hmm
<mdke> silly launchpad!
<mdke> mpt: so what do you have in mind in terms of presentation?
<mpt> hmmmmm
<mpt> two narrow columns
<mpt> I have no basis at all for saying this, but I feel that topics would be clicked more often if on the right
<mpt> and that would also be better flow for a sentence of instructions at the top left
<mdke> you might be right. I noticed the other day that our mockup is staggeringly similar to the Windows XP help center
<mpt> it is?
<mpt> I thought theirs was horridly large and crowded
<mdke> well, the layout is basically the same
<mdke> topics down the left, frequently asked questions and other resources in the body
<mpt> huh, so it is
<mdke> anyway, I really hope Don will helpout with this patch and we can at least have something that works to build from
<mdke> http://www.wellesley.edu/Computing/WinXP/images/help.jpg
<mpt> I was just looking at http://www.beansoftware.com/ASP.NET-Tutorials/images/Windows-XP-Help.jpg
<mpt> I wonder what determines the color scheme
<mdke> that's with themes turned off
<mpt> oh, probably Luna vs. Classic
<mdke> we also need to get people contributing a bit more. Right now the only people spamming the commit list are me and nixternal
<mpt> Is there now any legal problem with copying stuff from the wiki into the help?
<mdke> mpt: well, we haven't actually implemented the license change on the wiki yet. But really, it's never stopped us before
<mpt> :-] 
<bdmurray> howdy
<mdke> hiya bdmurray
<bdmurray> I was thinking about maybe having some documentation about filing bugs for Feisty or using apport.
<mdke> bdmurray: did you see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs already?
<mdke> you might be able to build on that
<bdmurray> okay, cool.  I think some documentation about apport would help too.
<mdke> yeah
<mdke> is there not some on the main wiki that can be pillaged?
<bdmurray> I wonder how many people actually view the chiark url about filing good bugs
<mdke> very few, probably. Better to have a few basic points in the text of the wiki page
<mdke> bdmurray: you seem like an ideal person to have a look at bug 74555, by the way :) Are you able to help chase that up?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 74555 in ubuntu-docs "SRU: [Edgy]  Upgraded documentation" [Medium,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/74555
<bdmurray> mdke: heh, good one
<bdmurray> I can look at it
<mdke> thanks, it shouldn't be controversial
<mdke> I have another sru I want to do, so getting that out the way would be helpful
<Burgwork> bdmurray: how many QA people does Ubuntu have now?
<bdmurray> 2? we've doubled in size!
<bdmurray> I'm not clear on the quantity exactly though.
<bdmurray> Is there any talk of an update to the Ubuntu book?
<Burgwork> yes, there will be an update
<Burgwork> I (and others) are working on it right now
<Burgwork> what about all your shiny interns?
<bdmurray> those are sfllaw's
<Burgwork> ah
<Burgwork> you don't get any?
<bdmurray> nah, I might put my kids to work though
<nixternal> I am in Ubuntu-QA, and I know Simon is and Daniel, so there are more than 2 :)
<Burgwork> nixternal: you ain't paid
<Burgwork> talking Canonical QA people
<bdmurray> so I think there are 2 people whose primary duty is bug work / QA
<bdmurray> Whereas Daniel is mostly dev
<LaserJock> daniel's job is to look pretty and give hugs
<bdmurray> and smile
<LaserJock> I don't know that I've seen such a smiley guy in my life
<bdmurray> nor I
<nixternal> ahh
<mdke> Joker?
<mdke> even he struggles to keep up with the Holbach though
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: will * r3740 ubuntu/musicvideophotos/C/musicvideophotos.xml: Fixed "add applications" link caused by directory restructuring
<quazar> hey, what package do I need to install to get the man page for getnameinfo.3
<quazar> or better yet, how do I figure out the package name for myself?
<mdke> linuxphotogeek: can you revert that last commit with the links? As per mailing list, we still need to discuss how to do the links, and I think we'll probably use another method; it will be easier to use sed to change them if they are all as they were
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3741 ubuntu/musicvideophotos/C/musicvideophotos.xml: reverting Will's last commit
<mdke> linuxphotogeek: I've reverted it myself ^^
* linuxphotogeek returns to desk
<linuxphotogeek> mdke: my misunderstanding
<mdke> linuxphotogeek: cool. If no one else replies to the relevant thread, we'll sort the links out soon
<linuxphotogeek> I was wondering if there was some sort of docbook equivalent to DocumentRoot
<linuxphotogeek> It would eliminate all the ../../../../
<mdke> linuxphotogeek: no, I don't think so. Docbook isn't really made for linking between files. But the type="help" url="ghelp" stuff should be a bit easier
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-01
<Commander-Crowe> hi all
<mdke> hi Commander-Crowe
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-02
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3742 /trunk/ (10 files in 9 dirs): changing the address that documents are installed in
<mdke> man you're fast CIA-4
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3743 debian/changelog: meh
<poningru> bwhahahaha
<AJIJOELA> nadie sabe donde puedo conseguir info del bind9
<AJIJOELA> o alguien que me pueda apoyar
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3744 /trunk/Makefile:
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: Removed the PDF from the website: section for building.
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: This fixes the building which seems to have stopped
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: January 27, 2007. Tested and works, just note to add PDF
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: at a later date if needed.
<nixternal> interesting, sorry about that spam
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-03
<Ubugtu> New bug: #83045 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Some New Users have a hard time switching to Ubuntu" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/83045
<Ubugtu> New bug: #83021 in ubuntu-docs (main) "ubuntu help: missing help files" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/83021
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3745 ubuntu/ (2 files in 2 dirs): couple of links fixed
#ubuntu-doc 2007-02-04
<Eleaf> What's up doc?
<Eleaf> Respond doccers.
<LaserJock> not much
<Eleaf> This is vast LaserJock
<Eleaf> How can I make documentation?
<Eleaf> Would a tutorial be considered documentation?
<LaserJock> could be
<LaserJock> are you familiar with the Ubuntu help wiki?
<LaserJock> http://help.ubuntu.com/community
<Eleaf> I am familiar with the wiki
<LaserJock> you can add to that, that's a good way to help with documentation
<Eleaf> is there a difference with putting stuff just in the normal ubuntu wiki vs. documentation wiki?
<LaserJock> you could also help with the documentation that is shipped with Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu/Edubuntu
<LaserJock> yes there is
<Eleaf> what is that?
<LaserJock> the normal wiki (wiki.ubuntu.com) is for development coordination
<LaserJock> specifications, team todo lists, etc.
<Eleaf> I usually see more tutorials on the wiki.ubuntu one.
<LaserJock> they shouldn't be
<Eleaf> Like how to do things
<LaserJock> all "help" type documentation should be on help.ubuntu.com
<Eleaf> like mp3 support, etc.
<LaserJock> nah, that's been moved to the help wiki
<LaserJock> it *used* to be on wiki.u.c
<LaserJock> but it was moved and redirects put up
<Eleaf> oh I guess so.
<Eleaf> I see, redirect.
<Eleaf> What should I write something on?
<LaserJock> whatever you like
<Eleaf> I know but I need suggestions now.
<LaserJock> ok
<LaserJock> I think https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCleanup is the current list of wiki pages that need work done on them
<Eleaf> LaserJock, is it okay if I make my own art for the pages?
<LaserJock> well, you could
<LaserJock> but you probably want to be careful not to do too much
<LaserJock> you might want to ask the doc team mailing list
<LaserJock> about how to best do it
<Eleaf> my own icons ;)
<Eleaf> or have a waterfall with ponies all over!
<LaserJock> hmm, well those might not be very appropriate for the help wiki
<Eleaf> it could be.
<Eleaf> LaserJock, it says I'm not logged in, but when I log in, it says I'm already logged in.
<Eleaf> now it's working..
<LaserJock> yeah, so you need to go back to the page you were at before you logged in
<Eleaf> I know but even then it wouldn't work.
<Eleaf> grr, the ubuntu wiki is so slow..
<Eleaf> especially when saving preferences...  Takes about 1 minute to respond..
<LaserJock> it can be yes
<LaserJock> lots of people use it
<Eleaf> still..
<Eleaf> xchat annoys me with chanserv, the chanserv output always goes into a random tab I'm not using..
<Eleaf> random channel.
<Shankar> hello there, can you direct me to the TAMIL LANGUAGE documentation page for ubuntu
<LaserJock> Shankar: I really don't know, is there a Tamil LoCo Team?
<jsgotangco> hey LaserJock
<mpt> Shankar, http://www.ubuntu-tam.org/tamizh/ is probably the best we have at the moment
<ShankarGanesh> hello there, can you direct me to the TAMIL LANGUAGE documentation page for ubuntu
<ShankarGanesh> * hello there, can you direct me to the TAMIL LANGUAGE documentation page for ubuntu*
<mpt> ShankarGanesh, try http://www.ubuntu-tam.org/tamizh/ and  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TamilTeam
<ShankarGanesh> thanks guys, i'll definitely contribute
<ShankarGanesh> YOU GUYS ROCK!!
<mpt> ShankarGanesh, are you interested in helping translate documentation into Tamil?
<mpt> ShankarGanes1, are you interested in helping translate documentation into Tamil? You could start here: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/edgy/+source/ubuntu-docs/+translations
<ShankarGanes1> thankyou, mpt
<mpt> Ah, I was just about to suggest you get in touch with the Tamil translation team, but I see you're already a member :-)
<ShankarGanes1> yeah
<mpt> Dodgy Indian Internet connections
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: philbull * r3746 ubuntu/keeping-safe/C/keeping-safe.xml: Reworked keeping-safe and added new section to it
<mdke_> yay!
<jsgotangco> yay
<popey> mdke: when you are about, I need to speak to you about how we might kick the screencast project up the butt
<popey> (including mine)
<mdke> popey: ok, later will be better I hope
<popey> ok
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3747 ubuntu/ (8 files in 8 dirs): fixing lots of links, adding script used to repository for temporary use
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3748 edubuntu/ (4 files in 4 dirs): renaming Edubuntu directories to match the rest of the repo
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3749 /trunk/Makefile: adding Edubuntu to Makefile for building
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3750 edubuntu/ (3 files in 2 dirs): cleaning up and fixing makefiles for Edubuntu
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: lucius * r3751 xubuntu/desktopguide/C/introduction.xml: patch from vincent
<nixternal> who is lucius?
<tonyyarusso> no idea
<nixternal> hiya jjesse
<jjesse> hiya nixternal
<jjesse> still snowing here rich :)
<nixternal> jeesh, it is cold, but still sunny
<jjesse> yeah, well the snow slowed its mostly blowing
<jjesse> its up to my knee :)
<mdke> nixternal: he's one of the xubuntu guys
<nixternal> never seen him before. Cool, wish we had more Edubuntu and Kubuntu guys :)
<mdke> he's been vaguely around for several cycles now
<mdke> was originally the only xubuntu guy
<mdke> now joined by Cody
<nixternal> cool
<nixternal> where are all of the Edubuntu people hiding?
<mdke> are there edubuntu people?
<nixternal> me
<nixternal> there is an Edubuntu Documentation team and Handbook Team, but where they all went I have no clue
<jjesse> nixternal: I find it funny they are complaining about the rain in miami when we have more snow to deal w/ then we know what to do
<nixternal> hehe
<nixternal> spam alert
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3752 edubuntu/handbook/C/introduction.xml: Handbook introduction.xml cleaning and additional content
<nixternal> spam alert
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3753 edubuntu/handbook/C/ (bookinfo.xml contribute.xml standalone.xml using.xml): cleaning up the Edubuntu Handbook
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3754 teamstuff/doc.ubuntu.com/sidebar.inc.php: added Edubuntu Release Notes to the sidebar at d.u.c
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: nixternal * r3755 edubuntu/releasenotes/C/releasenotes.xml: cleaning up release notes for Edubuntu
<jjesse> wow i'm re-working on my book chpt and it seems like there were a ton of gramatical problems
<mpt> "re-working on"?
* mpt flees
<mpt> jjesse, which book was this?
<nixternal> jjesse: there were more than grammatical unfortunately
<Burgundavia> mpt: likely the official one, given jjesse wrote the Kubuntu chapter of the first one
<Burgundavia> mpt: can you fix LP so it guesses URLs better?
<Burgundavia> so when I enter lp.net/83118 it goes to the bug number?
<mpt> Burgundavia, Launchpad is more than just a bugtracker
<mpt> and lp.net is taken :-)
<Burgundavia> mpt: regardless, hitting a number is unlikely to be anything but a bug number
<Burgundavia> I was shortening launchpad
<Burgundavia> at least you should replace the 404 page with a search page, ala moin
<mpt> Yes, one day we will have global search
<Burgundavia> why not now?
<mpt> </stargazing>
<Burgundavia> is the db so badly broken?
<mpt> Anyway, this is the wrong channel for such talk
<Burgundavia> true
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3756 ubuntu/ (6 files in 3 dirs): moving some things around
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3757 /trunk/ (6 files in 4 dirs): splitting "Windows" document into a separate folder, updating debian/rules accordingly
<tonyyarusso> Sometimes I'm disappointed by how small the Server Guide is (I bought it from lulu).  Can someone recommend a more comprehensive text for that sort of thing?
<nixternal> howtoforge :)
<tonyyarusso> Anything in print?
<nixternal> not that I know of
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3758 ubuntu/ (3 files in 3 dirs): fixing some more links
<CIA-4> Ubuntu Documentation: mdke * r3759 ubuntu/keeping-safe/C/keeping-safe.xml: fixing remaining links
<nixternal> slow down mdke!
<LaserJock> :-)
* mdke is done
<nixternal> DA BEARS!
<LaserJock> bah
<LaserJock> Colts are gonna kick there butt
<nixternal> hehe, I will have some more tonight. I have created an Edubuntu-docs package so I will have the debian/ directory up later
<nixternal> omg LaserJock, you just lost friend points
<LaserJock> hehe
<nixternal> you made me want to cry, I thought there was love, but no!
<nixternal> haha
<mdke> is your edubuntu-docs package different to ogra's?
<LaserJock> well, I like Manning, but it's been a while for the Bears
<nixternal> mdke: yes, as it contains the handbook, and more
<LaserJock> mdke: ogra wanted us to replace his with what we're doing with the doc team reapo
<LaserJock> *repo
<nixternal> he told me to make a package a couple of weeks ago, but I tried to put it on LaserJock, and I kind of dropped the ball
<nixternal> so I have been busting my ass trying to put a smile on his face
<LaserJock> now that there's a bit more activity
<LaserJock> ugg, I totally forgot
<nixternal> don't worry LaserJock, I have it under control
<LaserJock> I worked on it for a bit a while ago
<LaserJock> but I've been so insanely busy lately
<nixternal> I just installed Herd 3 so I can test my package and perfect it
<LaserJock> trying to get RL back in order
<nixternal> same here, DA BEARS are on, gotta go :)
<crimsun> I hope they LOSE.
<nixternal> jesus, none of you people like me
<LaserJock> that's just cruel ;-)
<nixternal> that's it, I quit
<crimsun> yeah, gimme your bandwidth
<nixternal> haha
<nixternal> later
<mdke> LaserJock, nixternal: sounds good
* mdke beds
<LaserJock> cya mdke
<nixternal> g'nite mdke
<nixternal> commercials
<nixternal> ;)
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-29
<cody-somerville> http://www.mudconnect.com/discuss/discuss.cgi?mode=MSG2&area=promotions&page=1&m
<cody-somerville> essage=18937#19071
<cody-somerville> mischan
<y_lee> How do i report a broken link on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
<seisen> whats the link?
<y_lee> on this page
<y_lee> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Spca5xx#head-032065f8a5fb6a485a7985ddb3a40262a0629fe5
<y_lee> Even if you're running a version of Ubuntu that includes spca5xx out of the box, you still might not have it and need to install the driver. In that case, the easiest way is to enable the universe repository then follow these [WWW] installation instructions.
<y_lee> the link is installation instructions
<y_lee> I've never been able to get my web cam to work and came across this page before
<seisen> are you talking about this link: http://mxhaard.free.fr/download.html
<y_lee> http://scottabbey.org/node/12
<y_lee> found in the troubleshooting section
<y_lee> page on Spca5xx
<y_lee> I've also never been able to get gspcav1-20071224.tar.gz to compile but that is a separate issue, lol
<seisen> I tried to find another link for it but I cant find anything but I will mark it as needing cleaned up
<y_lee> thanks i just wanted to report it, first time i really used this program too
<j1mc> hi all
<sommer> hello
<j1mc> hi sommer.  i work on xubuntu docs... we currently have the server guide included as part of our docs, but it was just leftover from the gutsy release.  what would you (or others) think about merging over all of the server-related changes into our hardy docs?
<j1mc> any thoughts?
<sommer> I think thats usually done before the freeze
<sommer> I'm not 100% sure of the process though
<j1mc> yeah... we don't use yelp, tho... we'd have to modify the yelp-specific links.
<j1mc> i if we can manage that, i think it'd be a good idea, though.
<sommer> sure, I don't think there are too many in the Server Guide, maybe 2-5
<j1mc> ah, ok.
<sommer> I'd guess you'd just do a bzr merge between the two?
<j1mc> i'm not sure... we'd have to bzr merge specific folders.
<j1mc> bc the server guide is just part of the ubuntu-hardy branch.
<sommer> mdke: is probably more knowledgeable that I am about the merge process between the different repos
<sommer> I'd think you can just merge the generic/server/C folder
<j1mc> cool.  thanks, sommer
<j1mc> what is your name on the mailing list?
<sommer> asommer70 at gmail.com
<sommer> Adam Sommer is my full name, if that's what you were looking for :-)
<j1mc> cool... i've seen your posts ... i think you close with a funny saying.  :)
<sommer> heh... Waynes World is the greatest!!!
<j1mc> i used to live in aurora, IL.  home of wayne's world.
<sommer> sweet, that's awesome
<sommer> we need coffee and krulers stat!
<j1mc> sorry, phone... i haven't seen that movie in a long time, but it's fun.
<j1mc> i'm jim campbell on the ML, btw.  i don't post that often... just mostly stuff about xubuntu.
<j1mc> i follow the threads, though.
<sommer> cool, have any opinions on the tag styling thread?
<sommer> as in where to use <command>, <userinput>, <programlisting>, <computeroutput>
<sommer> they may be unique to the Server Guide or cli sections, now that I think about it
<j1mc> i probably won't have any opinions on it (i'm still somewhat of a docbook noob, but i'm passable for what i do, i suppose), but i'll have a look.
<j1mc> :)
<sommer> cool, thanks man
<j1mc> hi adam - yeah, sorry, couldn't tell you one way or the other on that one.
<sommer> that's cool thanks for taking a look
<j1mc> hopefully phil or matthew or someone else will be able to lend their thoughts.  seems like you're trying to get things right, though.
<sommer> me and Gilbert just weren't sure on wich direction is best
<j1mc> nitpicky isn't bad when it comes to getting docs right, i don't think.
<sommer> ya, the kind of weird thing is they produce pretty much the same output
<sommer> which just helps make things more unclear ;-)
<j1mc> heh
<Kr0ntab> heya guys...
<j1mc> hi Kr0ntab
<Kr0ntab> hows it goin j1mc...
<Kr0ntab> I was just readin the conversation... I'm Gilbert Mendoza, btw... :-)
<Kr0ntab> I just submitted one more patch, and think we're on the right path, now.
<Kr0ntab> so no sweat, Adam.
<Kr0ntab> :-)
<sommer> Kr0ntab: whats up... just committed your latest patch, great stuff
<Kr0ntab> hehe... woot...
<sommer> ah crap, didn't reply to all though, apologies for the dups
<j1mc> cool, Kr0ntab ... thanks for your work.
<Kr0ntab> man o man... :-P  Figured we'd get it one of these days.  I'm pretty glad to have gone through a lot of that, because it cleared a whole lot of concepts for me, and I'm sure others will appreciate the input.
<Kr0ntab> ah no prob at all.
<Kr0ntab> just happy to be able to contribute where needed.
<j1mc> :)
<sommer> ya, I just hope you don't feel I was getting down on you or anything... I don't think those tags have really been discussed before
<bhuvan> hi sommer, Kr0ntab
<sommer> bhuvan: hows it going
<bhuvan> awesome work in last few weeks, keep it up!
<bhuvan> going good sommer
<Kr0ntab> oh no no, I don't take things like that personal.  There's a right way to do things, and it's much better to set the right example.
<Kr0ntab> heya bhuvan ... thanks man.
<sommer> Kr0ntab: cool
<bhuvan> sommer: fyi, i think the tags were chosen based on how it was in rest of documents. initially, it used to be consistent with other documents
<bhuvan> just keep in mind that the server guide layout is in line with other documents; if you are convinced to change the layout, thats ok; just keep other document owners (ex: desktop guide) informed thus, theh would make similar change in that document (if it is necessary)
<sommer> gotch, that makes sense
<sommer> sure, I'm not sure about changing the layout, is the question more clarifying which tags to use
<sommer> but then that sort of does change the layout... mmmm
<sommer> I guess I'm really not too familiar with the rest of the guide... been concentrating on the Server section pretty exclusively
<sommer> I'll read through the other sections
<Kr0ntab> Yeah I was thinking it would be a good idea to go through some of the other docs and make sure the tags used are all consistent.
<sommer> Kr0ntab: do you have hardware that supports KVM virtualization?
<Kr0ntab> yeah, I do...
<sommer> I've been trying to work on a virtualization section, but none of my hardware supports it
<Kr0ntab> ah.. yeah.  For the server guide?
<sommer> coooool... have you seen: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KvmVirtManagerEtc
<sommer> yep, it came up in one of the last Server Team meetings
<sommer> I can do a section on qemu, but I don't think the new virt-manager stuff works with it from the cli
<sommer> wondering if you'd be up for working on a KVM section?
<Kr0ntab> I've been reading a lot on KVM... and am interested in working on it.  I would just have to familiarize myself with it beforehand.  time frame?
<sommer> heh... Feb 14th I guess
<Kr0ntab> hehe... why'd I guess you were going to say that.
<sommer> though we can always apply for an extension ahead of time
<sommer> I'm not even sure development will be 100% done by then, so adjustments may have to be made anyway
<Kr0ntab> hmm... I have some spare HP DL360/380 servers that I can do something with...
<sommer> cool, I'm looking at getting a new box around April, but hardy will be out by then :)
<Kr0ntab> You're just looking for a machine with appropriate chip extensions that KVM supports, right?  Will you need access to it to write up your part?
<sommer> heh, I was wondering if you'd be up for writing it?
<sommer> but I guess if you're willing to...
<sommer> I'm really not too familiar with kvm, xen, etc myself... moslty just used qemu
<sommer> someone else on the server team may be willing to write most of it in the wiki, which we can then "translate" to docbook as well
<sommer> I was just wondering, since your security updates have been so good ;-)
<Kr0ntab> oh ok, no sweat.  let me see what resources I have, do some reading, and let you know by tomorrow..
<sommer> sure, no rush
<Kr0ntab> sweet.  well thanks for that, btw.  It would be pretty cool.
<sommer> soren in #ubuntu-server is the one working on the virt-manager integration if you have any questions
<Kr0ntab> yeah, I'll make sure to consult if need be.
<sommer> cool, I think I'm off to bed... have a good one all
<Kr0ntab> are all the prelim packages in the repos?  or do I need to get them from PPA's?
<j1mc> is february 14th string freeze?
<Kr0ntab> or is that a soren question... hehe
<sommer> they're in the repos, you'll need to load a hardy alpha release though
<Kr0ntab> yeah, thats no sweat...
<Kr0ntab> brb...
<sommer> j1mc: that was proposed, by matt east, I'm not 100% sure that it's concrete though
<j1mc> oh, ok.
<j1mc> that would be when we'd do a test build of the docs, and then just work out bugs... ??  iirc...
<sommer> feb 14th is proposed to be a major content freeze to allow more time to qa
<sommer> j1mc: yep, that's my understanding
<j1mc> cool.  thanks.
<j1mc> g'nite all.  nice chatting w/ all of you.  keep up the good work.  :)
<sommer> j1mc: later, thanks man
<Kr0ntab> back..
<ubotu> New bug: #187133 in ubuntu-docs (main) "The section Listen to online audio streams is out-of-date and requires rework." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/187133
<ubotu> New bug: #153124 in dell "Firefox Non-English Start pages not localized properly" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153124
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-30
<jjesse> does annyone have problems commit to the bzr repo?
<jjesse> getting a lock error
<yva1> I'm trying to make a link to Rhythmbox from a page of the Ubuntu Studio Documentation. But the Rhythmbox page is written just like that. The wikiword should be RhythmBox, otherwise it is impossible to link to. What to do about that?
<mpt> yva1, [:Rhythmbox] I think
<mpt> or [:Rhythmbox:]
<mpt> I forget which
<mpt> is the way to link to a page that doesn't have a WikiWord title
<astabeno> I am trying to decide what program to use for Doc Book documentation, any suggestions
<mpt> astabeno, have you tried Bluefish?
<astabeno> Yeah, I have used bluefish and gedit
<astabeno> Neither are bad, I was just curious what others have used
<jjesse> nano and kate
<jjesse> for editing
<astabeno> Thnaks for the suggestions
<nixternal> I heard that there is a Gnome IDE that is pretty good too, ajuda or something funny like that
<seisen> ajunta I believe is KDE based
<mpt> Editing XML with nano would make me want to smash things
<astabeno> me too
<ubotu> New bug: #187441 in kubuntu-docs (main) "package kubuntu-docs 7.10-5 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/187441
#ubuntu-doc 2008-01-31
<ubotu> New bug: #176678 in ubuntu-docs (main) "Startup page for firefox states "Welcome to Ubuntu 7.10!" when it should say "Welcome to Ubuntu 8.04 (alpha 1)!" " [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/176678
<kjs> yo.
<jjesse> yo
<sommer> yo yo
<mpt> yooooo
<kjs> Anyone about?
#ubuntu-doc 2008-02-01
<astabeno> I am trying to update a branch created for Brasero documentation to include a folder called figures that contains screenshots.  I can commit and push changes to the .xml file I am editing but I cannot figure out how to commit or push the new file and folder.  How do I do this?
<sommer> astabeno: did you add the new files?
<sommer> something like bzr add foldername
<sommer> bzr status will give you an idea of what bzr knows about the currrent state of your local repo
<astabeno> I got it thanks Adam
<sommer> np
<astabeno> How do you add "&" in doc book?
<sommer> &amp;
<sommer> I think
<sommer> ya that should be it
<astabeno> thats in a pot file somewhere right.  The branch I am using doesn't have a pot file so its not working for me.
<jjesse> yes &amp; is the & symbol
<astabeno> I am currently using that but it is not validating.  This is not in the Core-Docs but a repository Phil Bull created for Brasero which is going upstream to gnome docs.  It looks to me like in Ubuntu core-docs the &amp; points to a .pot file that is not in this repository.
<sommer> astabeno: I'm not sure what you mean when you say the &amp; points to a .pot file?
<sommer> &amp; is an escape sequence for the & character
<sommer> similarly &lt; and &gt are sequences for < and >
<astabeno> Sorry guys I had a mistake somewhere else in my code, thanks for the help though.
<sommer> np
<jjesse_> nixternal: where are the release notes for gutsy kubuntu?
<nixternal> on the website
<BertBert> I'm new to ubuntu documentation and have found a an article to clean up.  The title is forum/software/OpenSource/MakeMoneyHowto.  It looks safe for a beginner to work on since it appears to have no complicated formatting.  However, the content is somewhat logically disjointed.  And the subject appears to have little relevance to ubuntu as an operating system?  Would this be an article that should be deleted?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-28
<jblackhall> is anyone around?
<dsas> jblackhall: yes
<jblackhall> well I'll just leave a message.  I'm interested in getting involved with the documenation in ubuntu.  I'm not sure how much time I'm going to have over the coming months, since school is getting pretty hectic for me, but I'm curious as to what plans you all have for documentation and if there's something I can do
<jblackhall> sorry
<jblackhall> caught me at the end of that
<dsas> jblackhall: Yes, there's plenty of work to go around
<dsas> jblackhall: Have you saw wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks ?
<jblackhall> dsas: I was browsing the documenationteam wiki but i hadn't seen that
<dsas> It's got links to some bugs which may be suitable for people starting out
<dsas> My advice would be to pick a bug, (or find a new one), and fix it. Just to get an idea of what it's like and what the processes are.
<jblackhall> I think that sounds good.  this page is good too, what i was looking for
<dsas> you can stop in here and ask any questions you may have. Or you may wish to use the mailing list (you might want to introduce yourself on their anyway)
<jblackhall> oh ok, i'll have to check that out
<dsas> uhm 'there' rather.
<jblackhall> i got ya :)
<jblackhall> dsas: well this is pretty much what I was looking for, thanks a lot
<jblackhall> dsas: do you know if there's ever been a push to pull helpful members from the forums to contribute to documentation?
<dsas> jblackhall: Yes there has.
<dsas> jblackhall: There was some discussion and some volunteers to pull tutorials from the forums into the wiki for example
<dsas> jblackhall: As far as I know people from the forums tend to work on the doc wiki rather than the system docs. though that's likely a sweeping and wrong generalisation
<Rocket2DMn> dsas, that is a sweeping and wrong generalization
<Rocket2DMn> :)
<dsas> Rocket2DMn: I feared it may be
<jblackhall> dsas: I think I'll probably be more likely working on the wiki as well, since I have little/no programming experience and don't really have time to learn much unfortunately
<dsas> I don't keep in touch enough to know everyone
<dsas> jblackhall: all help appreciated.
<dsas> jblackhall: the wiki lets us cover great breadth.
<dsas> jblackhall: You don't need to know programming though. It's just like writing a web page really.
<jblackhall> dsas? oh really?  now that i can do
<dsas> jblackhall: yes. just a different set of tags. para rather than p etc etc.
<jblackhall> dsas: oh ok.  that should be easy enough to adapt to
<dsas> jblackhall: There are quite a few different tags. Just follow the previous examples and you'll soon pick it up.
<dsas> and come ask if there's any problems.
<jblackhall> dsas: okedoke
<dsas> jblackhall: There's a document about it on the DocumentationTeam part of the wiki... I think it makes it look scarier than it is though.
<jblackhall> i'm just looking at that now, i think
<dsas> anyway my battery is dying and it's 1am. good luck! hope to see you around again
<jblackhall> dsas: sure, thanks a lot for your help!
<treac> hello there - any folks here involved in mythbuntu docs?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-01-29
<vadi2> How can I create a redirect page on the wiki?
<vadi2> How can I create a redirect page on the wiki?
#ubuntu-doc 2009-02-01
<j1mc> hi all - i don't think this is valid docbook, but it "works" ...
<j1mc> <!ENTITY acro-read '<menuchoice><guimenu>Applications</guimenu><guimenuitem>Graphics</guimenuitem><guimenuitem>Acrobat Reader</guimenuitem></menuchoice>'>
<j1mc> it starts with guimenu, but shouldn't the next item be guisubmenu?
<j1mc> instead of guimenuitem?
<j1mc> i think guimenuitem is supposed to only be for the terminal menu item.
<Bassetts> hi
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-01
<Traveler6> where can i download my printer driver- Dell photo 924
<Traveler6> Any advise
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-02
<iflema> hello 2 all....
<doctormo> How would I go about making some help pages for my project, should I want to make a help button that opens up the nautilus help pages at a certain page?
<doctormo> Or should I just open up my own UI with some simple text (easier for me)
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-04
<Akos> hi everyone
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-06
<gmendoza> good evening!
<mdke> gmendoza: good morning :)
<awardle> I was reading bug 478097 and wondered where you  keep the style sheets that convert docbook xml to xhtml?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 478097 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "help.ubuntu.com claims to be XHTML 1.0 Transitional but is not (affects: 1)" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/478097
<awardle> I was reading bug 478097 and wondered where I could find the style sheets that convert docbook xml to xhtml?
<ubot4> Launchpad bug 478097 in ubuntu-docs (Ubuntu) (and 1 other project) "help.ubuntu.com claims to be XHTML 1.0 Transitional but is not (affects: 1)" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/478097
<gmendoza> mdke, ha!  :-)
<Rocket2DMn> hey gmendoza , i commented on your patch
<gmendoza> Hey thanks.  I just saw Connor comments and was working on the corrections.
<Rocket2DMn> that would be me
<gmendoza> hehe yes yes... hehe thanks, man.
<Rocket2DMn> sure thing, good work
<gmendoza> cool deal... so I'll spare the email for this question... I have been having trouble causing the validate to show a problem... did you use any special flags to cross-reference the other xml files?
<gmendoza> I'd hate to be a repeat offender.. :-P
<Rocket2DMn> no, what command are you using
<gmendoza> from the parent directory, I just ran ./scripts/validate.sh serverguide/C/network-config.xml
<Rocket2DMn> ah, that is your problem, it is confusing
<gmendoza> and it came up with no erros... could i be the diff I gave you?
<Rocket2DMn> you don't necessarily validate the file you're working on (in many cases, it will fail validation when it is actually correct, and vice versa)
<gmendoza> haha... awesome.
<Rocket2DMn> you validate the parent file, which in this case is serverguide.xml (it's always named the same as the directory)
<gmendoza> well what do ya know... hehe that works.
<gmendoza> thanks man... thats gonna help a lot.
<Rocket2DMn> np
<gmendoza> and I really appreciate the help with the rest.  Fresh eyes on something you're hyper-focused is very helpful.  I'm making the modifications right now.
<mdke> I'm wondering whether we should get the server team more closely involved with reviewing and approving patches for the serverguide
<mdke> it's so complex now that I'm not sure ubuntu-doc has the expertise to maintain it on our own
<gmendoza> mdke, well I do think there's just a lot to maintain.  I think there's quite a bit that can be shaved off and make it more focused, rather than a collection of every blog on the net and how to install X, Y and Z.
<mdke> yes, maybe that's right too
<gmendoza> The old link title fro the main index was "Installing server applications", but once you got the the guide, the main index title was "Ubuntu Server Guide".  The former may have lent to many of the entries we see today.
<Rocket2DMn> Perhaps we should be referencing external documentation more
<gmendoza> The problem I see is that many of the applications are modified often, so we could be left with an exhaustive list of corrections to be made with each release.
<gmendoza> Rocket2DMn, I agree.
<Rocket2DMn> any app that requires serious configuration, like apache, should just reference their own pages
<Rocket2DMn> some stuff, like maybe setting up networking, is OK to keep internal
<mdke> I don't know if the fact that it's hard to keep something up to date is necessarily a reason not to include it at all, but I feel that the server team would have a lot of expertise to bring
<gmendoza> mdke, agreed.
<Rocket2DMn> excuse me while i step away to eat my soup
<gmendoza> Rocket2DMn, for example, a LAMP install... it would be best to use the "tasksel" method... rather than simply a lits of all packages to apt-get install.  Mayeba simple reference to where the files are located, how to enable and disable a site, modules, etc... then link to external documentation for the rest.
<gmendoza> I havent checked the apache documentation.. so not sure if thats what it is currently... hehe... just an example.
<Rocket2DMn> gmendoza, yes that is true, tasksel is better
<gmendoza> Rocket2DMn, so regarding the long strings... in this case, I don't believe wrapping would be allowed.  So leaving it as is is okay even though it runs off the page?
<gmendoza> "as-is" would have been easier to read that sentence.
<gmendoza> hehe
<gmendoza> maybe a displainmer that says to read our docs you need a minimum 24" monitor.
<gmendoza> ack
<gmendoza> disclaimer even
<gmendoza> hehe
<Rocket2DMn> gmendoza, it would be niec if it could be wrapped, but if it cant, it cant
<gmendoza> yup. np.
<gmendoza> Rocket2DMn, you think it's appropriate to delete the previous patch from launchpad and reattach the new version?
<gmendoza> Rocket2DMn, or leave it for records?
<Rocket2DMn> it doesnt matter gmendoza
<gmendoza> okay.. just wanted to be clear.
#ubuntu-doc 2010-02-07
<awardle> How do you tell a user to click on a button that has only an image and no text?
<mdke> awardle: with difficulty :) what button is it?
<mdke> awardle: one option would be to include an icon from the default theme, especially if the image on the button doesn't change much between themes. Another is to try and describe the image with words. the last alternative is not to tell the user at all on the basis that if the interface is clear enough, step by step instructions might not be necessary
 * mdke -> afk
<awardle> mdke: Sorry for the late reply, I was having lunch. It is the button to unlock the options to edit the shared folders. The icon is of a picture of keys.
#ubuntu-doc 2011-01-31
<zkriesse> Hello doc people
<zkriesse> Anyone around?
<zkriesse> Preferably one of some leadership rank
<czajkowski> rank ?
<zkriesse> Oh had some news for whoever is in charge is all
<zkriesse> I don't know who actually leads ubuntu doc
 * CensoredBiscuit is away: Oh baby, theres a shark in the water
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-02
<Laney> hi dudes, just sent the ML an announce about the packging guide if someone could moderate it
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-03
<zkriesse> Just a note: (I'll be sending an emiail about this to the list as well) I'll be doing the Summer of Documentation Project again ths year...product of the Ubuntu Beginners Wiki Focus Group
<zkriesse> If you wish to learn more about it or even ask on how to help either pm me or pop into #ubuntu-beginners-wiki
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-04
<geekosopher> just updated to the latest revision of lp:kubuntu-docs using 'bzr pull'. But if I give 'make all' it exits with this error http://paste.ubuntu.com/562403/
<geekosopher> am I missing anything to be installed? because I think I am doing it for the first time on this kubuntu pc after upgrading to maverick (by upgrading I mean fresh install and then restoring old home dir)
#ubuntu-doc 2011-02-05
<CensoredBiscuit> Hello everyone
#ubuntu-doc 2012-01-30
<mhall119> good morning
<mhall119> mdke: pink
<jbicha> mhall119: purple ;)
<mhall119> no, definitely pink
#ubuntu-doc 2012-02-04
<dhillonv10> hi all, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/Tasks the bugs to be fixed link doesn't link to the bug tracker, can one of the wiki admins have a look at it?
<dhillonv10> its a trivial change, the link needs to be updated, that is all, i'm not a wiki admin so i can't fx it myself :)
<MrChrisDruif> "Ubuntu Documentation must be configured in order for Launchpad to forward bugs to the project's developers."
<dhillonv10> yea that's not the correct page for ubuntu docs package
<dhillonv10> http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-docs
<dhillonv10> that's the correct link
<jbicha> dhillonv10: you should just be able to use your Launchpad account to login and correct things like that on the wiki
<dhillonv10> jbicha: i thought i needed admin previledges
<dhillonv10> it has been fixed.
<jbicha> dhillonv10: thanks!
#ubuntu-doc 2012-02-05
<jbicha> mdke: did we want to try adding more locales before uploading ubuntu-docs?
<jbicha> of course that would need the new yelp-tools which hasn't been uploaded yet (I'd have to find a sponsor for that as it's not in the desktop set though)
<mdke> jbicha: I don't tend to import translations until after string freeze really
<mdke> hmm, failed to build
<jbicha> mdke: I'm working on the ftbfs
<mdke> jbicha: ok, thanks. I don't have a precise system to test here
<mdke> it built fine on my oneiric live usb
<jbicha> there's an impressive amount of </ gui> (with an extra space) problems in the translations
<jbicha> maybe that wasn't a critical problem in oneiric?
<mdke> jbicha: such errors in translations are incredibly common. Translators are very good at mucking up xml tags. If they are interrupting the build, then that will be a problem...
<mdke> possibly there is a more serious issue with that translation, or itstool has got stricter?
<jbicha> yeah, the last commit on https://gitorious.org/itstool/itstool/commits/master isn't in precise yet
<jbicha> shaunm: how about another itstool release?
<mdke> that wouldn't explain a change between oneiric and precise though
<mdke> unless there is something in 1.1.1 which causes the issue
<jbicha> yes, that's a "new feature" of 1.1.1
<mdke> ah, i c
<mdke> well, all the translations will have issues of that type, so the only way we can get around it is by fixing those or only including C in the upload..
<mdke> In the old days I used to fix them, but they have become so numerous that I gave up
<mdke> perhaps we just wait for a new itstool before the next upload
<mdke> (assuming that the latest commit would fix the issue)
<shaunm> http://itstool.org/download/
<shaunm> jbicha, mdke: done
<mdke> 11 minutes, that's quite outstanding
<shaunm> you caught me at a good time
<mdke> thanks for that
<shaunm> sure. thanks for reminding me. I didn't even realize that fix wasn't released yet.
<jbicha> shaunm: thanks!
#ubuntu-doc 2013-01-28
<YoBoY> hi
<YoBoY> stupid question: why the po files of the precise ubuntu server guide are not updated ?
<jbicha> YoBoY: since the server guide is not distributed as an Ubuntu package but just on help.ubuntu.com, we don't really post the translated version
<jbicha> someone needs to set it up like the desktop guide online and then there will be a point to translating it
<YoBoY> it is already being translatedâ¦ the quantal version have the po files up to date
<YoBoY> and some crazy locoteams put it online too http://guide.ubuntu-fr.org/server/
<jbicha> could you send another email to the list?
<YoBoY> Perhaps it's better to open a bug on the project
<YoBoY> ?
<jbicha> sure you could do that too, personally I think I'd see a mailing list post easier (I'm subscribed to too much LP bug email)
<YoBoY> I can do both ^^
<YoBoY> Do I have to register to the ML to post on it ?
<YoBoY> done and done :)
<jbicha> yes if you want to skip the moderation queue
<YoBoY> already too much suscribed mailing lists :] I've taken the moderation queue option :)
#ubuntu-doc 2013-01-30
<nihil_2013> Is it possible to download all wiki pages for offline use without using an unethical amount of bandwidth?
<nihil_2013> I'm wondering if there's a nice tarball of the Wiki or something. Thanks.
#ubuntu-doc 2013-01-31
<czajkowski> I sent a mail yesterday to the -doc mailing list
<czajkowski> could someone please approved it
<czajkowski> thanks
<cjohnston> Does anyone know how the help.ubuntu.com website works and why one page would have the new theme and another not so that I might be able to look at fixing it?
#ubuntu-doc 2013-02-01
<YoBoY> cjohnston, hi, can you give some links as examples of what you are talking about? help.uc is mostly a patchwork, it's hard to know which part you want to fix first :)
<cjohnston> YoBoY: 12.04 install guide
<cjohnston> getting ready to get on a plane, hopefully you can figure it out from that
<YoBoY> well, the install guide is like an abandonned project, but to fix the theme, I think you have to work on the xsl files of the installguide project
<YoBoY> https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/installation-guide
#ubuntu-doc 2013-02-02
<BlinkinCat_> Hi all, I am new here and this is my first post :)
<BlinkinCat_> See you later everybody !
#ubuntu-doc 2014-01-31
<dsmythies1> godbyk: Are you around?
<belkinsa> knome, ping.
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-01
<ahoneybun> hello I have a question about the https://bugs.launchpad.net/kubuntu-docs page
<ahoneybun> we the Kubuntu Docs people would like to take control of the page and turn on bug report for the page
<pleia2> ahoneybun: isn't littlegirl from the kubuntu doc team?
<pleia2> she has access to make changes to that :)
<ahoneybun> oh did not know that
<ahoneybun> to that page>
<ahoneybun> ?
<pleia2> she's a member of ~ubuntu-core-doc, which owns the kubuntu-docs project on launchpad
<pleia2> so she can make any changes you may need
<ahoneybun> I see
<pleia2> (that's why we have a kubuntu person in core-doc)
<ahoneybun> now to get a email to her
<pleia2> :)
 * ahoneybun search across the internet for it
<pleia2> littlegirl at gmail is what she uses on the doc list
<ahoneybun> oh ok then thanks
<ahoneybun> !
<pleia2> sorry, littlergirl!
<pleia2> the one in launchpad :) https://launchpad.net/~littlergirl
<ahoneybun> sent
<dsmythies1> ahoneybun: Are you still around?
<ahoneybun> yes
<dsmythies1> ahoneybun: do you have any idea why this page: https://code.launchpad.net/kubuntu-docs ...
<dsmythies1> says this:
<dsmythies1> You can push the branch directly to Launchpad with the command:
<dsmythies1>                bzr push lp:~dsmythies/kubuntu-docs/kubuntu-docs
<dsmythies1> It makes no sense to me why my name is there, and you can not do that anyhow.
<ahoneybun> says my name when I load the page
<godbyk> dsmythies1: It just substitutes your username in case you don't have permissions to commit directly to the repository.  It shows ~godbyk for mine.
<dsmythies1> Duh... sorry,
<dsmythies1> ahoneybun: Please note that littlegirl comes and goes, and right now she is not around much.
<ahoneybun> yea I see that
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Btw, I just noticed you pinged me earlier. Is there something I can help you with or is it too late?
<dsmythies1> godbyk: Recall that we were having some dicussions about yelp-tools and some changes we hoped woould make it into 14.04.
<dsmythies1> godbyk: Recall also that I am currently compiling using the development branch of yelp-tools.
<dsmythies1> godbyk: You had suggested that I try to get some action at Debian upstream to include the newer yelp-tools. Which I did not do yet, because I was hoping to include some things Shaun was still working on (which I am not up to date on status).
<dsmythies1> godbyk: I did not realize until this morning that "Debian Import Freeze" is on February 6th. Ugh-oh, I think we will miss out on what we want for yelp-tools. It will be a problem for some of our compile issues.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Hmm.. well, that stinks.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Will the docs packages be compiled using the Ubuntu packages of yelp-tools or can we ensure they're compiled with our custom builds of yelp-tools somehow?
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Alternatively, can we bypass Debian and patch/update the Ubuntu yelp-tools packages ourselves?
<dsmythies1> godbyk: shaunm_ is not around. I'll try to e-mail him and see where we are at.
<dsmythies1> godbyk: The issues are mainlly with html, and I compile that for help.ubuntu.com
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Okay, so for the html we can use our custom builds that contain the patches?
<dsmythies1> godbyk: BY the way, Recall I was following up about the installation guide. My inquiries have no reply yet.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: No one is interested in updating the installation guide for 14.04?
<dsmythies1> godbyk: For html we could, it probably is some violation though.
<dsmythies1> godbyk: Well, I thought I had a guy for installation guide, but amybe he has begged off.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Gotcha.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: The installation guide covers some interesting topics.
<dsmythies1> godbyk: Maybe the guy is just away right now. Let's hope.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: One possibility would be to excerpt the installation manual from the Ubuntu Manual project and use it, but it only covers the simple desktop installation case.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: But if the current installation guide is too far out of date and no one is interested in maintaining it, that option might be better that posting outdated docs.
<dsmythies1> godbyk: The guy had a merge proposal, and it only needed a bit of work. I could look at it, but I was hoping it would be something I didn't have to (i.e. I was "yippie" someone took that over)
<godbyk> dsmythies1: I hear ya.  If he has a merge proposal that's nearly good enough, we should take a look at it this cycle.
<dsmythies1> godbyk: Re: yelp> Let me follow up with shaun.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Otherwise we'll keep seeing bug reports about our (obviously) outdated docs.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Okay.
<dsmythies1> godbyk: Re: install guide. Let me ping the guy, yet again, and think about it in a week.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Sounds like a plan.
<dsmythies1> godbyk: I was only wanting to update you was all.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Ha! No problem. :-)
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Let me know how those go.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: I'd like to at least get the yelp stuff fixed, though.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: I'm a bit less concerned about the installation guide at the moment. We could just remove the link for 14.04 if the docs are that bad.
<dsmythies1> ahonybun: godbyk: I feel incredibly dense, re my name on the launchpad page.
<dsmythies1> godbyk: Yes, I would very much like the yelp tools stuff to make into this cycle.
<godbyk> dsmythies1: Don't worry, *I* still think the universe revolves around you. I'll push some branches to your repository to make you feel special if you like. ;-)
<dsmythies1> godbyk: lol
<dsmythies1> godbyk: The problem with deletion of the installation guide is that it would break a lot of links. (which if we have to tackle it, well we have to).
<godbyk> dsmythies1: That's a good point.
<AlanBell> pleia2: done :)
#ubuntu-doc 2014-02-02
 * dsmythies does not know why or how he became dsmythies1
<dsmythies> shaunm: Are you around?
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: Are you around?
<ahoneybun> yea
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: It looks to me as though that bug reporting area you referred to yesterday was shutdown on purpose.
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: Probably when the kubuntu docs project on launchpad was shutdown.
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: The note that was left there says to use the kubuntu-docs package bug reporting system instead
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: I do observe that the package bug reporting system seems to be working fine. ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kubuntu-docs )
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: I do not know if it makes sense to re-enable https://bugs.launchpad.net/kubuntu-docs for a project that doesn't exisit in lauanchpad anymore (at least that is my understanding).
<ahoneybun> it does exisit
<ahoneybun> exist
<ahoneybun> we uploaded the 13.10 version of the docs package there
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: a package and a project are not the same thing. Are you saying there is still a project? I thought the project was at some other website.
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: there has been no activity on the project since 2013.04.12
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: However, I do observe the "package" upload of 2013.10.17.
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: What I am saying is that I think the appropriate bug reporting system is working.
<ahoneybun> just that the other page has old bugs dealing with the old docs not our redesign
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: And you don't have suffiecent rights to deal with them? Is that the root issue?
<ahoneybun> yes I would like the kubuntu-docs page to have bug reporting on so we can track current bugs
<dsmythies> ahoneybun: There are only 14 active bugs against the package. My input is to deal with them (set to invalid with some note as to why) and move on.
<ahoneybun> only like 2 are to the new doc package
<dsmythies> godbyk: Installation guide update: I did hear back from the guy. He could not fix build issues. I just got it to build, and hope to now toss it back to him.
<godbyk> dsmythies: Okay, cool. Thanks for following up on that.
<shaunm> dsmythies: you pinged me earlier?
<dsmythies> shaunm: Recall that we were having some dicussions about yelp-tools and some changes we hoped would make it into 14.04.
<dsmythies> shaunm: Recall also that I am currently compiling using the development branch of yelp-tools (although I'm not sure I am updating everything correctly).
<dsmythies> shaunm: godbyk had suggested that I try to get some action at Debian upstream to include the newer yelp-tools. Which I did not do yet, because I was hoping to include some things we were talking about.
<dsmythies> shaunm: I did not realize until yesterday that "Debian Import Freeze" is on February 6th. So now I am worried that we will miss out on what we want for yelp-tools.
<dsmythies> shaunm: It will be a problem for some of our html compile issues.
<dsmythies> shaunm: It is not clear to me how to proceed or what to do.
<shaunm> dsmythies: fixed the code watermark thing. remind me what else you needed
<dsmythies> shaunm: The code watermark thing was still there a couple of days ago, and after I did "git pull" etc. Was it since then? (but I might not be updating everything that I thought I was updating, but only realized that a day ago).
<shaunm> dsmythies: I fixed it just now
<adalberto> I want to share folders between windows xp and ubuntu 13.10 using my hostname whith samba, but when I try to do it it ask me for a password that I don't know, when I do it using my ip address it works excellent...
<dsmythies> shaunm: There is still an issue with conditionals and possibly "unmatched block elements" errors. However, I fixed it by nuking the conditionals in display-dual-monitors.page.
<dsmythies> shaunm: There was also something you mentioned on IRC, but I'll have to find it to remind myself. It would result in our (ubuntu) being able to get rid of some file. (not important, I suppose, since we have the workaround already)
<dsmythies> shaunm: I'll try another "gut pull" etc. shortly.
<adalberto> Well I gotta go... Sorry, you can help later
<dsmythies> shaunm: reference for "block elements" thing: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-doc/ubuntu-docs/trusty/revision/338
<shaunm> dsmythies: that's not really a bug. conditionals are working exactly as specified.
<shaunm> there's always a possibility of making conditionals able to do more, but that's a mallard enhancement, not a yelp-tools bug.
<dsmythies> shaunm: Source file presense check, maybe optional. When you checked it was already on your "TODO" list. Reference: 19:55 http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/01/17/%23ubuntu-doc.html
<dsmythies> shaunm: Ah yes, I recall now, I think it was xltproc that was getting confused.
<dsmythies> shaunm: There was also some discussion on http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2014/01/16/%23ubuntu-doc.html around 18:30 "I'll cook up a patch for the mal2html.page.linktrails.trail override. that one's easy to fix, because I already added an extension point for exactly that purpose. The other one is hard."
<dsmythies> shaunm: I'll need some time to update the tools and try builds and examine stuff to see where things are at.
<dsmythies> pleia2: Re: some of our off-list e-mails and to gnome sync or not. The unmatched block elements issue discussed above is just one example of why it no longer makes sense (in my mind) to synch with gnome.
<pleia2> dsmythies: thanks :) no bother either way, I'm just keeping an eye out for when we need folks to: 1. review for accuracy for 14.04 2. general review for grammar, etc
<dsmythies> pleia2: I'll make sure it is an agenda item for the meeting.
<dsmythies> shaunm: Would you consider to implement: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=709943 ?
<dsmythies> shaunm: Becuase it is very trivial.
<dsmythies> shaunm: The guy asked me to submit a patch against git, but I said no, because it would take me about 40 times longer than someone already familiar with that system.
<dsmythies> shaunm: If you don't want to, then O.K., becuase the workaround is already in place anyhow.
<dsmythies> shaunm:
<dsmythies> shaunm: I am still getting compile errors related to missing files as per: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-docs/+bug/1232708
<dsmythies> shaunm: However, there seems to be a secondary issue, where there is another call to the .page file in question, without conditional code.
<ubot2`> Gnome bug 709943 in DocBook "yelp-xsl/xslt/common/html.xsl missing a fundamental docbook tag conversion" [Normal,Unconfirmed]
<dsmythies> shaunm: This will take me a bit to sort out.
<dsmythies> godbyk: shaunm: pleia2: Recall the ongoing discussions about synching with GNOME and such going forward? godbyk and I and a little shaunm here on IRC. pleia2 and I a little on off-list e-mails.
<ubot2`> Launchpad bug 1232708 in Ubuntu Documentation "Some GNOME only help showing up in Unity help (13.10)" [Undecided,In progress]
<dsmythies> godbyk: shaunm: pleia2: Lyz pointed out, correctly so, that a final decision by stake holders had not been agreed to, even though Kevin and I sort of did make a sort of plan going forward.
<dsmythies> godbyk: shaunm: pleia2: While we can decide once and for all at the meeting, for the above mentioned issues, which result in erronious information in yelp help and html and attempts to
<dsmythies> godbyk: shaunm: pleia2: include png files that are not, and should not be, present I will proceed to fix the files without using conditionals.
<dsmythies> shaunm: I'll need more time to finish the review of where we are at. (like several hours, because some not ubuntu chores await attention).
<pleia2> thanks for all your work on this dsmythies :)
#ubuntu-doc 2016-02-02
<pmatulis> is there a meeting today?
#ubuntu-doc 2016-02-03
<mihaic> Hello!
<mihaic> What is the procedure for changing an immutable page?
<mihaic> I'm looking at the usage of ${HOME} in .pam_environment, which doesn't work with ssh logins (and maybe other logins):
<mihaic> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EnvironmentVariables#Session-wide_environment_variables
<mihaic> ${HOME} has been replaced in the upstream PAM documentation with @{HOME}:
<mihaic> https://git.fedorahosted.org/cgit/linux-pam.git/commit/?id=73bdfac8c091492f466342feb8f2f5daa2f4c39b
<knome> mihaic, we're currently in lockdown mode for some spam, but if you send us the new markup with the pagename you are willing to change, i can do that
#ubuntu-doc 2016-02-04
<mihaic> knome: should I put the diff on the Ubuntu pastebin?
<knome> for example
<knome> any way works
<knome> oops, i mean
<knome> put the new content as is
<knome> so i can just copy-paste lazily
<knome> ;)=
<mihaic> Can't you patch lazily? :)
<mihaic> http://paste.ubuntu.com/14872919/
<knome> the wiki doesn't really accept patches, but ok, i can live with that
<knome> ok, updated, please check if i did something silly ;)
<mihaic> Looks great. Thank you.
<knome> no problem - thank you for the attention
<msapiro> There is a wiki article on installing Mailman at <https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Mailman> and an 'official' guide at <https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/mailman.html>. Current Ubuntu Apache does not enable mod-cgi by default. This is required for Mailman. The docs should mention the need to 'sudo a2enmod cgi'.
<pmatulis> msapiro: which doc is wrong?
<pmatulis> help welcome, in any case: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam/SystemDocumentation/UbuntuServerGuide
<msapiro> Neither of the two docs mention the need to do 'sudo a2enmod cgi'.
<pmatulis> msapiro: ok
<msapiro> pmatulis: also see <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2016-February/080400.html> for how this came up.
<pmatulis> msapiro: right. well, people need to realize that some one needs to maintain the server guide. no one is paid to do that
<msapiro> pmatulis: :(
#ubuntu-doc 2020-01-29
<mazaduk> Hello. How can I contribute to the Ubuntu Docs?
