#ubuntu-mobile 2007-06-25
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-mobile.log
<happycube> nokia 770's @ woot for $129.95
<pwnguin> is the nokia internet tablet an intended target of ubuntu-mobile?
<pwnguin> cuz there's 770s on sale for 125 at the moment
<happycube> not at first go
<happycube> it'd have to be arm based and they'd have to get past all the non-open bits
<pwnguin> oh?
<pwnguin> is this not targetting the ARM platform?
<happycube> not at first
<pwnguin> "at first"
<happycube> i'm not sure
<pwnguin> everything i read screams, nokia tablets
<pwnguin> except for Intel's "new low power intel chipset"
<happycube> it's that
<pwnguin> if i were conspiratorial, id imagine canonical was hired to develop a platform for a new nokia (or intel) tablet
<happycube> oh we know that already ;)  intel is sponsoring it
<pwnguin> strange
<pwnguin> x86 low power
<pwnguin> i guess it doesn't matter much
<pwnguin> i already have an x86 toshiba tablet
<pwnguin> its a little strange, reading the open mailing list of a secret project
<happycube> it's not a secret ;)
<happycube> intel's detailed plans for MID's and <=2w 45nm pentium-m's
<happycube> secret would be if AMD was planning something, which they can't/won't
<happycube> (for one thing it'd mean an ATI video chip... i'm suuuure shuttleworth would go along with bundling fglrx)
<pwnguin> or
<pwnguin> they could open the drivers ;)
<pwnguin> or improve the existing ones
<pwnguin> radeon isnt that bad
<pwnguin> so really this is targetting a replacement for UPMC platform
<pwnguin> makes sense
<pwnguin> makes software cheaper for hardware makers, puts pressure on microsoft, and generally sells more chips for intel 
<happycube> yup
<happycube> r500 *just* got an alpha 2d driver this last week - from reverse engineering
<happycube> nvidia at least works on the free 2d drivers
<happycube> *their
<pwnguin> kinda
<pwnguin> it's also so poorly commented they're the only ones who really can
<pwnguin> (this hasn't stopeed me from trying)
* Mithrandir arghs at sdk-default-icons having file conflicts with some standard themes
<Mithrandir> hiya agoliveira 
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: do you have a script or something to get the hildon desktop up and running?  I'm still trying to make head and tails of the last two weeks. :-)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Hi.
<agoliveira> agoliveira: Yes, hold on.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Check this out: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure
<Mithrandir> do you really need a chroot for it?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Some things might not be necessary like editing /etc/hildon-desktop/desktop.conf as I did that in the package already.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: You can also use Gutsy itself.
<mdz> Mithrandir,agoliveira: ahve you noticed this?
<mdz> Failed to fetch http://repository.maemo.org/dists/bora/free/source/Sources.gz  401 Unauthorized
<mdz> Failed to fetch http://repository.maemo.org/dists/bora/non-free/source/Sources.gz  401 Unauthorized
<mdz> Failed to fetch http://repository.maemo.org/dists/bora/extras/source/Sources.gz  401 Unauthorized
<Mithrandir> mdz: seems to work from here
<agoliveira> mdz: No, where did you get it?
<agoliveira> mdz: Works here.
<mdz> I'm at millbank
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: also, do we have a sample hildon app that can be used for testing if stuff display well?
<agoliveira> agoliveira: Nothing specific AFAIK.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Nothing specific AFAIK.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: But usually running standard gnome applications works.
<ian_brasil> It might be nice for the docs to create/implement/test one standard app the whole way through development
<ian_brasil> maemo follows this approach somewhat
<Mithrandir> ian_brasil: yes, I think that would be sane
<Mithrandir> mdz: do you have sdk-default-icons in bzr?
<mdz> Mithrandir: no, because there was no upstream to import yet (and the nokia guys said they were going to add it there)
<mdz> (very soon)
<Mithrandir> ok
<mdz> it may be in svn by now
<mdz> tommi or moises should be able to say
<Mithrandir> mdz: there are also some file conflicts between it and hicolor-icon-theme ?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: How did you see that? I don't remember having those conflics on my notebook that I'm using for testing.
<Mithrandir> conflicts over usr/share/icons/hicolor/index.theme
<tko_> MDK said he'd work something out this week. however I'm not sure it'll take care of the conflict
<Mithrandir> it seems to me like you're kinda trying to be a hicolor theme, but not really?
<tko_> like we didn't really get debian packaging, we didn't really get hicolor icon theme either
<tko_> though in a way our icons are just add-ons and regenerating icon cache should fix it, but then our packaging was done such a way that it included the cache... *sigh*
<tko_> actually that should be getting fixed and you shouldn't get conflicts
<Mithrandir> hm, the theme cache is just one bit of this.
<mdz> Mithrandir: I thought I fixed that by changing it to use dh_iconcache rather than shipping the index.theme
<mdz> but I was in a great hurry and may have botched it
<mdz> Mithrandir: at any rate, things are moving toward using chroots for development, where this should be a non-issue
<Mithrandir> true
<amitk> robr: could you ask jacob_laptop to subscribe to kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com. I reworked his poulsbo patches and posted them there. He should probably check the archives for some comments
<agoliveira> I second that. It's much safer that way.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Did you give a try on Rusty's project builder?
<ian_brasil> i have a base gutsy chroot installed...the process to get a Hildon Desktop is now  apt-get install hildon-desktop right??
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: apt-get install ubuntu-mobile will bring also some required packages like themes
<ian_brasil> ok i try that...thx
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: In case something fails, check out this document here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure and report back what happened, ok?
<ian_brasil> i will do
<matt_c> apt-get install ubuntu-mobile and the preperation/running scripts worked for me the other day
<ian_brasil> sweet
<matt_c> installing ubuntu-mobile a few days ago broke the application menu but I think that's been fixed (I haven't tried again recently)
<ian_brasil> do i need to change my gutsy sources.list to install ubuntu-mobile
<matt_c> ian_brasil: it should be in the standard sources for gutsy
<ian_brasil> Mmm..i get could not find package
<ian_brasil> i have deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu gutsy main in my sources.list
<agoliveira> matt_c: Yes, the broken menus have being fixed, I don't know if reached the repositories yet.
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: That's strange, do you have the universe rep enabled?
<ian_brasil> i must be doing something wrong as apt-cache search hildon-desktop returns nothing as well
<ian_brasil> no i only have that 1 line in my source.list
<agoliveira> Ah...
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: You need to add universe session to it.
<ian_brasil> ok
<matt_c> ahh sorry, adding universe has become so second nature that I forget that I've done it sometimes
<ian_brasil> its ok...i am writing this up so just wanted to cross the t's and dot the i's basically...it works ok now
<ian_brasil> it bugged out installing ubuntu-mobile
<ian_brasil> Errors were encountered while processing:
<ian_brasil>  dbus
<ian_brasil>  dbus-x11
<ian_brasil>  libgnomevfs2-0
<ian_brasil>  libhildonwm0
<ian_brasil>  libhildondesktop0
<ian_brasil>  libhildon-thumbnail0
<ian_brasil>  libhildonmime0
<ian_brasil>  libhildonfm2
<ian_brasil>  libgnome2-0
<ian_brasil>  libbonoboui2-0
<ian_brasil>  libgnomeui-0
<ian_brasil>  libgtkhtml3.14-19
<ian_brasil>  libhildonhelp0
<ian_brasil>  hildon-desktop
<ian_brasil>  ubuntu-mobile
<ian_brasil> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
<ian_brasil> the dpkg.log shows lines like:
<ian_brasil> 2007-06-25 17:52:33 status half-installed libhildonmime0 1.9.5-1ubuntu1
<ian_brasil> 2007-06-25 17:52:33 status unpacked libhildonmime0 1.9.5-1ubuntu1
<ian_brasil> 2007-06-25 17:52:33 status unpacked libhildonmime0 1.9.5-1ubuntu1
<ian_brasil> 2007-06-25 17:52:33 install hildon-fm-l10n-engb <none> 3.0-sardine1ubuntu1
<ian_brasil> 2007-06-25 17:52:33 status half-installed hildon-fm-l10n-engb 3.0-sardine1ubuntu1
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Is there any message saying like "trying to overwrite /usr/share/icons/hicolor/index.theme"...?
<ian_brasil> hold on
<ian_brasil> no...just that half-installed lines
<ian_brasil> i dunno if this helps but i installed nano to start with which complained about locales and defaults
<agoliveira> I mean, above the line "Errors were encountered while processing:"
<ian_brasil> no it was just the sub-process returned an error code
<agoliveira> Ah, ok. I just saw something....
<agoliveira> hold on
<ian_brasil> you want the whole dpkg error?
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Are you trying to install it on a gutsy machine?
<ian_brasil> on a feisty machine with a gutsy chroot
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Hmmm... in my Gutsy machine worked like a charm... can you send me the logs by email? It's easier for me to read. adilson@ubuntu.com
<ian_brasil> on their way
<agoliveira> ian_brasil:Thanks.
<rusty> does anyone know amit's normal working hours?
<rusty> or.. amit, are you listening?
<agoliveira> rusty: Hi Rusty. IIRC, Amit is UTC +3 so it's a bit late over there now.
<rusty> ok, thanks... i just didn't know if he was they kind of guy who hacks all night and sleeps all day
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: I think I know what happened. The dbus postinstall failed and that broke the sequence. I'll check it out because it was working.
<amitk> rusty: hi :)  My usual working hours are 0900-1700 UTC.
<rusty> hey amit... i was going to introduce you to ToddBrandt who is working on the power stuff
<amitk> hi ToddBrandt
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ken, do you know where the icons at this page came from? They are quite familiar but I can't remember where I saw... http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8166710404.html
<amitk> rusty, ToddBrandt: I will be catching up with Kylem on the UME kernel configs (hopefully tomorrow). Are there any power related 'items' that need special attention?
<kwwii> asac: 
<kwwii> erm
<kwwii> agoliveira: I think that they are from a stock gnome installation
<rusty> amitk, i don't think so... ToddBrandt would be talking more about the user space side of things
<rusty> amitk, other then using a tickless configuration
<kwwii> agoliveira: looks like some tango icons mixed with some app icons
<amitk> rusty: tickless - ofcourse. I am assuming HPET-support will come automatically. Anything in terms of user-space power policies?
<agoliveira> kwwii: Ah... fine. It's just that they looked familar, no big deal. Thanks.
<rusty> amitk, the user-space power policies is exactly what ToddBrandt is working on... which is why i wanted to get him connected to you
<kwwii> agoliveira: no problem
<amitk> rusty: great. I guess I will run into him soon enough. If there is already some documents, you can send them to amit_at_ubuntu_dot_com
<rusty> amitk, actually, i was having ToddBrandt start creating a blueprint and dumping all of his current design work into that blueprint
<rusty> amitk, is that the right thing to do?
<amitk> rusty: that would indeed be the best thing to do. He and I can then work on getting the blueprints in shape and break them into smaller components if needed.
<rusty> amitk, cool... i think he might have stepped out for lunch just before you started talking on IRC, but before that i was pointing him to launchpad.net and he was starting to create a new project so he could fill out a new blueprint.  We didn't know if there was a different place he should be adding the content, but worse case he would just move it when we found out the right spec
<amitk> rusty: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/power-management-in-ubuntu is where I dumped my current list of ideas worth pursuing
<amitk> rusty: I think ToddBrandt should create a new one, subscribe me to it and then we could discuss how to best separate out kerne/userspace stuff.
<rusty> amitk, ToddBrandt see the above when you get back to you computer :->
<amitk> rusty: I am done for today. I will catch you tomorrow once I have had some time discussing details of the UME sprint
<rusty> amitk, ok, see you l8r
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: I'm installing a chroot from scratch to see what's happening as the one I had is working fine.
<ian_brasil> ok...let me know
<ian_brasil> agoliveira: looks like the first dpkg error relates to dbus: Setting up dbus (1.0.2-5ubuntu1) ...
<ian_brasil> invoke-rc.d: initscript dbus, action "start" failed.
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Exactly and it seens to be afecting upstream as well. I'm cheking it out.
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: dbus 1.0.2-5 has indeed a bug making it bombs when no services are active. I'm checking out how to solve this.
<ian_brasil> cool...how did you find this out?
<rusty> ian_brasil, agoliveira are you guys trying to get a fresh chroot working?
<rusty> if so... you need proc mounted to install dbus
<rusty> in general, you really need /proc, /sys, and it's a good idea to have /tmp bind mounted for a bunch of different things
<agoliveira> rusty: Yes but  /proc /sys are mounted
<agoliveira> /tmp too btw
<rusty> hmm...
<ian_brasil> i added to /etc/fstab
<rusty> unless an update has been made to dbus since yesterday, i can install dbus in a chroot with no problems
<agoliveira> rusty: What's your dbus version?
<agoliveira> I mean, the package
<rusty> let me see...
<rusty>  1.0.2-5ubuntu1
<agoliveira> Gee... same here. Weird.
<rusty> i might be doing another step
<agoliveira> The funny thing is that I had one chroot working fine.
<agoliveira> Which one?
* rusty searches for the URL to see his bzr code online
<rusty> http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/project-builder/ubuntu/annotate/rusty%40rusty-laptop-20070624230429-q1d2i5cq8krp71f6?file_id=project.py-20070611215750-v6m0mwari40ckyel-30
<rusty> search for "def mount" to see my function for mounting a chroot
<rusty> the only thing else i see special is i copy over the resolv.conf and hosts files
<rusty> i can't image dbus needing a network
<ian_brasil> in maemo bora scratchbox there were problems with resolv.conf and hosts file...maybe it is this? 
<agoliveira> No.
<agoliveira> I got it.
<agoliveira> I'm not 100% sure about this but, if I understood it correctly, there is indeed a bug that prevents dbus from start if there is no processes running already. I you're binding the chroot proc with /proc, it works.
<agoliveira> So: sudo mount --bind /proc gutsy/proc/ solved the problem.
<agoliveira> Or at least masked it if is there really a bug ;)
<rusty> agoliveira, i thought you said that you already mounted proc?
<agoliveira> rusty: Sorry, I wasn't clear. Inside the chroot proc was shown as mounted I didn't do it manualy.
<ian_brasil> that works for me too
<agoliveira> rusty: But, of course, it was empty. I didn't realized that. I'll add to the TODO to mount /proc and /sys.
<rusty> and add /tmp or else attempts to run an app with a Xephyr window will fail
<rusty> not to mention the network config files, or else apps that need a network will not know how to resolve addresses
<agoliveira> /tmp is there already but I didn't have to do anything regarding the network files but add the universe repository to /etc/apt/sources.conf
<agoliveira> I got to go now but I'll see if I can check this again later today yet.
<ian_brasil> i still need to comment out the StatusBar on /etc/hildon-desktop/desktop.conf 
<ian_brasil> ?
<agoliveira> agoliveira: I alreayd fixed that but didn't check if the update reached the repository.
<ian_brasil> no problem
<robr> BenC, did our poulsbo/menlow patches make it into your kernel?
<BenC> robr: not this upload, but amitk will get them in tomorrow and build you guys a kernel to try out
<BenC> should have another kernel upload in a week
<robr> BenC, ok. we'll test it then when it's available
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-06-26
<robr> BenC: Will this still get the patches into the CD build #2?
<tfheen> hi Adilson
<tfheen> I think I have a fix for the sdk-default-icons being uninstallable in a normal system bug
<agoliveira> tfheen: Cool.
<agoliveira>  tfheen: Not using the other nick today?
<tfheen> fsck-ing 2.5TB disks is fun.
<tfheen> 'nuff said.
<tfheen> :-P
<agoliveira> :)
<ian_brasil> agoliveira: I got the gutsy chroot and hildon working but it seg faults when trying to do anything: 
<ian_brasil> ** (hildon-desktop:20235): WARNING **: Error loading icon '/usr/share/pixmaps/python2.5.xpm': Icon '/usr/share/pixmaps/python2.5.xpm' not present in theme
<ian_brasil> ** (hildon-desktop:20235): DEBUG: read_menu_conf: DONE!
<ian_brasil> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
<doko> tfheen: any comments on my email on -mobile?
<tfheen> doko: about the arch?  I don't mind either way.
<tfheen> doko: I'd rather have you just upload dpkg with the one we want so we can finally get the arch bootstrapped.
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Hi. This "trying to do anything" means exactly what? If you click on the left upper icon it will segfault. This is a known bug that should be solved by an update. Have you tried to open an application pointing to the Xephyr window?
<ian_brasil> Ola, it is the know bug then that i found
<doko> tfheen: fine with me; can we make gcc-4.2 the default from the beginning for lpia?
<tfheen> doko: if you want to, sure.
<ian_brasil> agoliveira: I have upgraded ubuntu-mobile and clicking on the upper left icon now core dumps a memory map which i have mailed to you
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: As I said, this is a known bug that should be cleared soon.
<ian_brasil> agoliveira: sorry , i thought you meant that the upgrade would solve it
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Sorry, I meant that it will solve, we just don't have it there right now.
<tfheen> ok, I have a change which works for me now.. I wonder if it'll make everything fall over for the rest of the world..
<agoliveira> tfheen: What is that?
<tfheen> making sdk-default-theme installable on a normal system
<agoliveira> tfheen: Ah, ok.
<amitk> jacob-laptop: ping
<jacob-laptop> amitk: hi
<amitk> jacob-laptop: Did you subscribe to kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com?
<jacob-laptop> amitk: no
<jacob-laptop> amitk: i guess i should
<jacob-laptop> did i miss anything?
<amitk> jacob-laptop: I suggest you do that. I cleaned up your patches according to checklist provided by checkpatch.pl and submitted them there
<amitk> please check the archives to see if they still work for you :)
<amitk> your email id on the patches bounced :-/
<jacob-laptop> amitk: ok, i did run the kernel cleanpatch script
<jacob-laptop> cleanpatch
<amitk> jacob-laptop: I also suggested running checkpatch.pl. I found a huge number of warning. But anyways, I fixed those. And I merged some of the patches together because they didn't do much by themselves. So I suggest you test the result before BenC commits them
<jacob-laptop> amitk: can you send me the URL to the mailing list, and checklist? 
<amitk> jacob-laptop: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kernel-team
<amitk> jacob-laptop: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelGitGuide for the checklist (patch acceptance criteria)
<jacob-laptop> amitk: thanks
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-06-27
<rusty> anyone... what's the correct status to change a blueprint too that says 'I think i'm don't... please review me'.  Would that 'Pending Approval' or 'Review', or ???
<rusty> i'm going to guess 'Pending Approval'
<Mithrandir> grr, there are 32-bits-isms in hildon-desktop or the theme engine or something like that. :-/
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: hiya
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: do you get a nice picture as the backgroud when running hildon-desktop?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Hi.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Not from start, you hav to select one.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: To tell you the truth, I don't know if it's expected to be this way or not, never bother to ask.
<Mithrandir> hmm
<agoliveira> brb
<Mithrandir> ** (hildon-desktop:24629): WARNING **: Error when setting background: Window 20007d not found
<Mithrandir> and that window id is constant.
<Mithrandir> oh, and do we have any applets to test with?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: where did the non-trunk control-panel-applet branch go?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: It looks like it didn't :( I checked this right now and looks like it wans't imported yet. I was about to talk to the LP guys to see what happened because they told me that it would be there by today.
<Mithrandir> if you could do that, that would be good
<agoliveira> Sure, I was about to. Anyway the current trunk will be replaced by the revamped version as the current trunk is being discontinued.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I just spoke to mwhudson and he's having problems to import a non-trunk branch as it requires changes on LP itself. He expects to have it done by the end of the day today.
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> do we have any applets/plugins for the home screen to test with?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sorry about the delay, I was talking to Matt. I don't think we have anything like that but I know Bob Spencer have being working on it. Perhaps some of the Maemo ones from the garage project site might work but I didn't try.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Do you have the logs from our ume meetings? Mdz is asking but I just have the last one.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/irclogs/ should have it, if not ask me and I'll dig it out
<agoliveira> Thanks
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Aren't we going to have our weekly meeting tomorrow?
<charliefjohnson> I had heard it was going to be on Friday this week ?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: we agreed to move it to Friday last meeting.
<charliefjohnson> What time?
<Mithrandir> 1600 UTC
<Mithrandir> unless somebody protests loudly
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Bah, sorry, I remembered that I just I tought today was thursday :)
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-06-28
<alienseer23> Q: is there any sort of a time table on when other devices (palm t|x?) might be supported by this project?
<rusty> i don't think so, but i think all that it would really take is for some people to step up and start doing the work
<bspencer> tko -- you around?
<Mithrandir> hi Bob
<Mithrandir> mdz: the list of licences used; do you have any thoughts on how we should provide that?
<mdz> Mithrandir: an aggregation of /usr/share/doc/*/copyright should suffice, no?
<Mithrandir> I would think so, yes
<Mithrandir> mdz: can you either review https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-kernel or change the approver to be ubuntu-mobile?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: good morning
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Good morning!
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/WindowManager still contains some of the boilerplate text.  Could you remove that?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sure
<Mithrandir> thanks
<mdz> Mithrandir: done (the latter)
<Mithrandir> thanks
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure claims just su-ing to the UME user will start dbus; it doesn't for me.  Are you sure you haven't done some manual changes to make that happen?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: This was sugested by Rusty and actually worked for me. I tested those instructions to the letter twice and everything worked as expected.
<Mithrandir> hmm
<Mithrandir> weird
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: And, IIRC, there were more people who did the same.
<Mithrandir> well, logging in as a user in a non-GUI environment shouldn't start dbus. :-P
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Now you got me ;) I really don't know what's exact circunstances for dbus to work.
<Mithrandir> you're sure you did su - and not just su ?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Well, AFAIR, I did su -; of course it's a detail that could have escape me even twice.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I can give it another shot later.
<Mithrandir> can you test that $DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS is unset for you when you're root in the chroot?
<Mithrandir> and then that it's set after you su - ume ?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sure. Give me a few minutes (I'll brb) and I'll test it agin for you.
<Mithrandir> thanks
<agoliveira>  Mithrandir: I'm starting the instalation procedure again, from scratch following exactly the instructions  paying attention to the dbus as you requested. I'll return to you with the result as soon as it's done. 
<Mithrandir> cheers
<lool> Uh, 65 notification mails for hildon-control-panel
<Mithrandir> hm
<Mithrandir> that sounds slightly excessive
<agoliveira> lool: uh uh
<Mithrandir> I switched the branch over
<Mithrandir> sorry; I didn't know it would be that noisy. :-/
<agoliveira> Talking about this, should I rebranch ubuntu or this will done by LP?
<lool> I was surprized, but no problem
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: I did it, so https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/hildon-control-panel/ubuntu is now branched off the new control panel branch
<Mithrandir> this is what caused all the mails.
<agoliveira> Ah, I suspected that. Thanks.
<agoliveira> Well, it was expected to make some comotion as this is a complete rewrite.
* agoliveira sees that bzr update is doing some heavy lifting wiht hildon-control-panel
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I just completed the test. $DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS before su - ume is unix:abstract=/tmp/dbus-ziKEqhtaUs,guid=9ee983efe42d1b92843187004683a1e0 but after, is empty but anyway I was able to start hildon-desktop and it looks normal. Right now I'm running sudoku on it, have the bar on the left with icons, app switcer, etc
<Mithrandir> can you set the background too?
<agoliveira> Yes.
<Mithrandir> hmm, ok
<Mithrandir> does the ume user have a dbus daemon running?
<agoliveira> Browse and all
<agoliveira> dbus is running
<Mithrandir> tko_: any idea why state_size in osso_state_t is a guint32 and not a gsize?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: a session dbus for that particular user?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: No. There's only the previous instance.
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> that's what I thought.
<Mithrandir> so the startup script should start dbus too.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I wonder why Rusty tought that just su - would do that.
<Mithrandir> no idea
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Well, anyway, looks like the latest patches (besides new hildon-control-panel) are already there. No more crashes that I can see.
<Mithrandir> yeah, seems to work for me too, sans the fact that it's mostly broken on amd64
<Mithrandir> I don't think we'll be able to fix that for this iteration, though
<agoliveira> Agreed. There must being a lot of tidbits regarding that.
<agoliveira> s/being/be
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Anything you need me for right now? As we are going to have the distro meeting in 1 hour, right over my lunch time, I'm going now grab something to eat
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: please, just find some food. :-)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Cool. See you later.
<Mithrandir> see you around
<charliefjohnson> folks - I'm attempting to explain to another Intel person how to request membership in the mobile and embedded project.  Once they have a Launchpad login, is it obvious ??
<agoliveira> charliefjohnson: Hi. The group is moderated so he needs to be included IIRC but I don't know what's the proper procedure.
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-06-29
<rusty> robr, you around?
<robr> yes
<robr> rusty, yes
<rusty> hows it going
<robr> rusty, what's up?
<rusty> just arrived at my hotel and checking email
<robr> rusty: running into networking issues on the menlow with the USB-Ethernet dongles...linksys works but i can't get the SMC device that ships w/ the knockdown kits to work
<rusty> on the flight to Chicago i did some homework on creating init ram disks with mkinitramfs
<robr> rusty: cool...is it something you want to add before or after tomorrow's M3.1 release?
<rusty> robr, is this exposing a hardware issue with usb, maybe?
<rusty> robr, i wouldn't feel comfortable pushing a change till after i get back... maybe, unless i get some good work time tomorrow
<rusty> but... 
<robr> rusty: not sure, it could be either at the moment...USB HW is still being debugged from what i understand, but i'm suspicious that one brand works and the other doesn't
<rusty> mkinitramfs has come a long way since i really used it
<robr> rusty: i need to test with a different SMC device
<rusty> actually, i think we can really simplify things
<robr> rusty: that would be good
<rusty> robr, so... you hooking up asit with remote access?
<robr> rusty: we could have Alek look at it if you're busy...i'd like to have him add a couple things to project-builder including CD images and kernel command-line options
<robr> rusty: now that i've got networking working with the Linksys, it's possible for Asit to remote login, although he never responded to my email
<rusty> robr, you think this needs to be in for tomorrow?
<robr> which part?
<rusty> redoing the initrd creation
<robr> i'd think it could wait
<rusty> robr, that's what you were talking about, right?
<robr> i think what i was talking about Alek doing could wait until after tomorrow
<robr> but i know people are asking for ISO image support
<rusty> robr, asit did reply
<robr> rusty, ahh...i see it now...it was burried in my inbox 
<robr> rusty, i'll respond to him in a bit with an ip address he can ssh into the menlow box
<robr> rusty: asit should now have what he needs
<bspencer> tko: you online?  I'm looking for a good control panel applet example.
<bspencer> tko: A guy on my China team wrote a short how-to for control panel applets.  But has problems with the refactored code.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: hello, TGIF
<bspencer> Mithrandir: am I supposed to change my blueprints to "review" or "pending approval" ?
<bspencer> once I'm done?
<Mithrandir> bspencer: yes.
<Mithrandir> and then I'll go through them and either give you feedback about stuff that needs changing, or approve it.
<bspencer> "review"
<bspencer> not "pending approval"
<Mithrandir> either is fine, since we're not doing reviews, just the approval bit.
<Mithrandir> usually, when we do this at a conference we start out by having them go to review where they're then checked for clarity, style, grammar, etc by a person who doesn't actually know about the spec itself.
<Mithrandir> the approver, on the other hand, is supposed to make sure it fits into the big picture and do a technical valuation of the spec.
<bspencer> ok.  I just chagned them to review
<Mithrandir> that's fine, I'll get to it.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: a build question for the master
<bspencer> we are using pbuilder create --distribution gutsy  (internal builds)
<bspencer> and want our chroot'd environ to be able to pull from universe
<bspencer> currently it only pulls from main
<bspencer> is there a way to indicate this when running pbuilder ?
<Mithrandir> add  --othermirror "deb http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu gutsy universe" to the command line
<Mithrandir> (with the quotes)
<bspencer> does that also include "main" by default?
<bspencer> or also include ..." gutsy main universe..."
<Mithrandir> main is included by default, always.
<bspencer> ok.  much thanks
<lool> Mithrandir: Cool, thanks for merging from Debian
<Mithrandir> lool: my pleasure; thanks for taking the effort to make it easy for me to do so
<bspencer> asac, Mithrandir question about our browser for mobile
<asac_> bspencer: pong
<bspencer> we are starting from firefox pristine files (2.0.0.4)
<asac_> hi
<asac_> ok ... when will we release?
<bspencer> we were planning to create a new project called Mobile Internet Browser 
<asac_> maybe its better to go trunk?
<bspencer> but wondered if we should use existing pristine files in cluded in Firefox ubuntu package 
<bspencer> asac_:  you mean not use Firefox tag ?
<bspencer> we used firefox tag to pull from Mozilla base
<asac_> no ... develop against 3.0
<bspencer> using cvs.
<bspencer> ah
<asac_> at best we could get kind of bzr import or something
<asac_> but i think that is more than we can hope for
<bspencer> just so we don't spend time banging our heads on new stuff.
<bspencer> we figured get something working with 2.0.0.4 base, then move to 3.0 after it was working mainly
<asac_> right
<asac_> 3.0 will be out in january
<bspencer> ok.  I think we can certainly jump when it is ready.  Maybe for next Ubuntu.
<asac_> so if we develop for the future we should go that ... if we want to hack something now ... we need to stay on 1.8 branmch
<asac_> 1.8 branch == firefox 2.0
<bspencer> I don't know much about the difference or how much effort it will be to port what we are changing
<bspencer> mainly chrome, some GTK calls
<bspencer> we visited with Moz guys and kind of thought 1.8 would be fine.  They said 1.9 gecko in November
<asac_> depends ... gecko engine has gotten a huge rewrite ... so porting anything that we adapt in gecko might cause headaches
<asac_> ... though i don't think we will really touch things that are hard to port
<bspencer> but if we release something in October that isn't done is that a headache?
<asac_> yeah novembmer is too optimistic
<bspencer> sure
<bspencer> so 1.8?
<asac_> yes if we want to release in october ... yes
<bspencer> ok.  then... should we important a completely independent set of files for our browser ?
<asac_> ok lets go back to topic :)
<bspencer> disregarding the existing Firefox package also containing pristine files of the same
<bspencer> s/important/import
<asac_> i would think so
<bspencer> me too.  that's our plan
<asac_> though most files will just be identical
<mdz> bspencer: good evening, up late or traveling?
<bspencer> we want to get a package started even if it looks curiously like Firefox at first.
<asac_> but that is done for all mozilla products ... so consider it a best practice :)
<bspencer> mdz: up late.  internal deadline tomorrow
<bspencer> mdz:  (and Mithrandir 's *#@! deadline for blueprints)
<bspencer> asac_: ok.  :)
<mdz> asac_: do you know yet whether it makes sense for us to make this part of our firefox source package, or something separate?
<asac_> for now lets do it separate
<bspencer> mdz: yes, my question
<asac_> so we can release independently
<asac_> ... imo we should try to import source tree to bzr or something
<bspencer> and we were also wanting to ensure we did the licensing stuff right.  
<Mithrandir> asac_: the LP people are very cautious about importing non-trunk.. :-/
<bspencer> so changing all the names from Firefox to "mobile internet browser" or such
<bspencer> and then the help looked copyrighted...not sure how much we can alter or include
<bspencer> it says "firefox" in many places.  Also about box changed.
<Mithrandir> bspencer: hm, MozCo should be fine with you changing it massively if you change the name, I thought.
<asac_> Mithrandir: yes ... i don't think its realistic to sync checkins anyway ... I thought more about doing bulk imports on release
<asac_> bspencer: we would have to add a PROJECT in client.mk/configure.in
<bspencer> Mithrandir: yes, but first we might look very similar
<asac_> bspencer: i can get this bootstrapped
<bspencer> asac_ that would be great
<asac_> but first i have to figure out how we can develop collaboratively :)
<Mithrandir> bspencer: iceweasel and firefox both look very similar too.
<asac_> e.g. bzr ... git ... or whatever 
<Mithrandir> I don't see how that would be a problem as long as we have an intention of fixing it?
<bspencer> Mithrandir: agreed
<bspencer> asac_ recommend something and we'll follow
<Mithrandir> speaking of browser, have we evaluated webkit at all?
<bspencer> I updated the blueprint with uninteresting details regarding teh browser
<asac_> actually i would prefer to use git ... so we can rebase and keep our patches on top
<bspencer> Mithrandir: my understanding was that webkit was lighter and faster, but there wasn't a stable gtk port
<bspencer> and not the strong community or familiarity with it
<Mithrandir> bspencer: ok.. I talked a bit with the gtk-webkit maintainer at debconf and he urged us to at least look at it, but I agree about the community bit.
<bspencer> asac_ git is great for us
<asac_> we would have to find how we can host git though :)
* asac_ wonders if launchpad does provide something
<Mithrandir> LP doesn't do git
<amitk> asac_ kernel team has their git repos exported at kernel.ubuntu.com
<asac_> Mithrandir: where is kernel.ubuntu.com hosteed?
<Mithrandir> separate machine
<amitk> zinc
<Mithrandir> I think it might be a challenge, politically, to get git trees hosted in the DC.  The kernel is kinda special and we tried using bzr for that.
<asac_> i would be fine with bzr ... if its fast enough for a 300+M source tree (maybe that is resolved by now) ... and if we can rebase
<asac_> ... keeping a branch for each patch to get something rebase-like doesn't sound like a feasible way for such a huge tree though
<asac_> but i am open for discussion
<Mithrandir> you can do a reverse rebase instead of a regular one.
<asac_> he?
<Mithrandir> so you'd do bzr branch, then merge the previous branch
<Mithrandir> that'd almost give you the same thing
<bspencer> see you after a few hours of sleep
<asac> bspencer: night
<asac> Mithrandir: i think i should talk to some bzr people .. who is the one that would know best?
<Mithrandir> ask on #bzr?
<asac> oh ... those people have not really been helpful in the past :)
<asac> i think i will try ddaa
<asac> to start :)
<mdz> asac: please take some time to talk with the bzr team about your needs, as we would prefer to use bzr if it meets them
<asac> mdz: yes ... i will definitly do
<mdz> asac: talk to Martin Pool, rather than ddaa
<asac> mdz: whats his nick?
<Mithrandir> poolie, iirc
<asac> thanks
<asac> hmmm ubuntu-mobile doesn't install hildon-desktop ... is that a bug or a feature?
<Mithrandir> it's because you're on amd64, and hildon-desktop was FTBFS when ubuntu-meta was last uploaded.
<asac> ah ok
<asac> now i started it ... and hildon-desktop just crashed :/
<asac> last week it started ... but when clicking on something it crashed
<Mithrandir> in general, hildon doesn't work completely correct on amd64, I would recommend using an i386 chroot
<asac> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/27754/
<asac> ok
<asac> any known reasons why this is the case?
<Mithrandir> sizeof(void*) != sizeof(int), in general.
<Mithrandir> I would also guess that you didn't use the start-hildon script?
<asac> i used the script from wiki
<Mithrandir> ok, then you should be good
<asac> lets see what happens on i386
<asac> Mithrandir: it crashes as well
<asac> Mithrandir: ah ... just saw that i need ume user?
<asac> why that?
<Mithrandir> no, you shouldn't necessarily need it.
<asac> hmm
<asac> then i have no idea
<Mithrandir> anyway, it works for me in a fresh chroot, as of yesterday
<asac> i just recopied the start script
<asac> in case it has changed in last week
<asac> but no improvement
<Mithrandir> mdz: is it correct that  https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-development-environment is still drafting?
<Mithrandir> mdz: and can you set ubuntu-mobile as the approver on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-mediaplayer ?  I can't edit it otherwise.
<Mithrandir> ditto for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-browser
<Mithrandir> mdz: you're drafter for https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-maemo-packaging-cleanup ; I think it should be approved even if we might discover new problems that needs to be cleaned up, so unless you protest I'll just mark it as approved.
<mdz> Mithrandir: packaging-cleanup -> fine
<mdz> Mithrandir: media-player -> done
<mdz> Mithrandir: I need for you or adilson to take over development-environment; I can't put the time in right now
<Mithrandir> I'll be happy to take it
<mdz> thanks
<Mithrandir> hiya rusty
<Mithrandir> how's OLS?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: I think we should start on getting you through MOTU and such, so you can do your own uploads, at least to universe.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: any thoughts on that?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: That would be helpful. BTW, saw your last email. Got it.
<Mithrandir> it's not a big deal, it just looks better to use the standard syntax.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: No problem. I'm aways open to learn ;)
<rusty> morning... I haven't hit the conf floor yet... still getting ready in my room 
<Mithrandir> ah
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: asac complained about hildon falling over when trying to start the UI; can you reproduce it?  (I can, but I'm not sure where the problem lies)
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Until yesterday (when I was testing the dbus with you) it was fine here. I can try again to see if anything changed.
<Mithrandir> make sure to upgrade the chroot first
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Ok.
<Mithrandir> meh, and hildon-control-panel needs an -l10n-mr package
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yes, I put that on the TODO. I already prepared the package yesterday but it need to be uploaded.
<Mithrandir> is it in bzr?
<agoliveira> Yep.
<Mithrandir> oh, excellent, you're way ahead of me, then. :-)
<agoliveira> Hmmm... now that you mentioned, I remember that I did push it yesterday but I can't find it on the mobile list. Let me see what happened.
<Mithrandir> https://launchpad.net/hildon-control-panel-l10n doesn't have an import
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: My bad. I registered it but was waiting for the import
<agoliveira> from svn.
<Mithrandir> hm
<Mithrandir> are you sure?  I can't see any SVN details connected to it
<asac> agoliveira: if you need any info ... let me know
<agoliveira> https://launchpad.net/hildon-control-panel-l10n/trunk
<asac> agoliveira: it just crashes here ... same for amd64 and i386 chroot
<agoliveira> Subversion:             https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-control-panel-l10n                                        Import status:           Testing
<asac> last week it crashed when i click on something ... now it crashes right at startup
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: ok, I can see that. Just strange it's not listed at all in the list of imports.
<agoliveira> asac: Sure, let me test it here first.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: you're prodding our LP guy when he shows up, I presume?
<agoliveira> Yep. That was the first thing on my TODO for today.
<Mithrandir> I'm taking a break now, phone me if there's anything urgent?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Nope. Call you is be expensive :-D
<agoliveira> s/is be/is
<lool> Mithrandir: Instead of patching gconfschemasdir, you might want to call dh_gconf
<lool> Oh nm, you do call dh_gconf; you don't need to patch gconfschemasdir though
<lool> dh_gconf will pick the files in /etc
<agoliveira> asac: The crash you saw earlier was caused by a bug already solved. Yesterday I tested the last batches and it works fine. I'm checking out right now again, just in case.
<agoliveira> earlier = the first you mentioned.
<agoliveira> asac: I just tested it here using the procedure described here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure and I can click, run other applications, same as yesterday. Are you sure you didn't miss anything?
<agoliveira> I even have the side panel working now, btw.
<Mithrandir> lool: oh, ok, thanks.
<asac> agoliveira_brb: i didn't setup a clean chroot
<asac> agoliveira_brb: maybe there are some conflicts?
<asac> agoliveira_brb: or leftover files from last weeks which have not been properly cleaned up?
<asac> i just apt-get install ubuntu-mobile ... and dist-upgraded to get the latest
<asac> agoliveira_brb: btw, i got bug 123003 when doing this on amd64 ... don't looked if the same occured during i386 upgrade
<agoliveira> asac: That's possible. We have being messing with a lot of stuff and perhaps some dependencies are not being updated correctly. I sugest you try with a clean chroot and see what happens. We don't have clean support for 64 bit yet. Maemo code simply is not ready for it and we are going to need a lot of tweaking to do it.
<asac> oh damn ... why can't you package things properly ... setting up a new chroot isn't exactly what i like to do :)
<asac> lets see
<asac> i will remove stuff and look for any leftover
<Mithrandir> asac: it's already fixed in bzr
<asac> agoliveira: have you looked at bug 123003 ?
<asac> Mithrandir: what is fixed in bzr? e.g. what is the problem?
<agoliveira> asac: I really don't know if it was your case yesterday I just updated my chroot and it worked.
<Mithrandir> asac: 123003 is fixed in bzr.
<asac> agoliveira: what package can i remove to purge everything?
<asac> Mithrandir: ah ok.
<asac> Mithrandir: might that cause problems?
<asac> like crash on startup?
<Mithrandir> I doubt it
<asac> k
<agoliveira> asac: Removing hildon-desktop should do the trick for the base packages but the is some data like the themes that you might have to remove manually.
<asac> hildon-desktop doesn't remove anything else :) ... 
<asac> apt-get remove libhildon-1-0 libosso1 libhildonwm0
<asac> looks better
<asac> but stilll i have the feeling that there is something else ... like maemo :)
<asac> ok ... i think i purged everything ... lets install ubuntu-mobile again :)
<asac> agoliveira: which package ships the /etc/hildon-desktop files?
<asac> hildon-desktop right?
<agoliveira> asac: I believe so.
<asac> yes ok ... lets see
<asac> agoliveira: ok ... now it doesn't crash anymore :) ... but in xephyr window i just see the side bar for less than half a second then all disappaers again
<asac> log is http://pastebin.mozilla.org/111167
<asac> anyway ... if you don't see it right now ... i will try with fresh chroot
<asac> but not today :)
<Mithrandir> asac: it's something in osso-init which fails
<chrissturm> hey guys! what are the target devices for ubuntu-mobile? will it work fine with a n800?
<Mithrandir> chrissturm: it's not the initial target, no.
<Mithrandir> we're initially targetting intel-based devices
<chrissturm> are devices like that already available?
<agoliveira> asac: There is a glib message that's new to me too :-/
<asac>  ... ** (hildon-desktop:25339): CRITICAL **: hildon_home_window_set_work_area: assertion `HILDON_IS_HOME_WINDOW (window) && work_area' failed
<asac> that looks definitely critical :)
<agoliveira> chrissturm: Also, the N770 and N800 have some proprietary parts so I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anything but Nokia code into it.
<asac> right after the critical pointer assertion
<asac> hmmm '/bin/sh: /usr/bin/esd: not found' ... then
<asac> ' WARNING **: Failed to initialize libOSSO'
<agoliveira> asac: Yep.
<asac> is that related?
<agoliveira> asac: Let me check mine here.
<asac> i mean does libosso fail because there is no esd
<asac> =
<asac> aahhh
<asac> keyboards
<agoliveira> asac: I don't know, I just pack things here :-D
<tko_> libosso init failure is usually because of missing dbus
<asac> tko_: ok is that a problem?
<asac> or just ignorable?
<agoliveira> tko_: I was about to say that! Not fari! :-D
<tko_> apps might crash
<agoliveira> s/fari/fair
<tko_> agoliveira, you're just packaging things, remember :)
<asac> so how do i make dbus work in my chroot?
<agoliveira> tko_: That's why I wanted to say it ;)
<agoliveira> asac: That's a vewy vewy good question... I didn't worry about it because mine just worked.
<asac> your dbus works?
<asac> or you your hildon desktop?
<agoliveira> asac: I just follow the instructions and it works. I never needed to do anything extra.
<agoliveira> asac: Both
<asac> agoliveira: you don't get the dbus warning?
<asac> in line 11 of my log?
<agoliveira> asac: Nope. 
<asac> ok maybe i miss a mount
<asac> lets see
<asac> $ sudo mount --bind /tmp ${DIR}/tmp
<asac> agoliveira: ^^^ why do we need to mount tmp?
<Mithrandir> to access the X server
<agoliveira> asac: IIRC, it was something related to the the X sockets
<agoliveira> asac: Just in case ;)
<asac> makes no difference
<asac> i crashes again :/  ... i am out of this for today i guess ;)
<agoliveira> asac: That's really strange. It has to be something there because it's being working fine for several people.
<asac> yes ... its strange ... i still think i have leftover
<asac> from last week
<agoliveira> asac: Why don't you try from scratch?
<asac> because i usually don't accept that i need to wipe a chroot :) just to test latest ... especially since i don't want to develop mobile core , but just browser :/
<asac> but yes ... i will probably do it
<asac> on monday :)
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: I can reproduce the problem here, so it's not just asac.
<Mithrandir> and wiping out where the problem might be found is wrong; better to track it down and fix it.
<asac> right
<asac> should be a packaging bug if it really works with clean chroot
<asac> Mithrandir: does dbus work for you ?
<asac> or do you get the warning at the beginning as well?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I know that, I was suggest trying from scratch on a different chroot to have something to compare with.
<asac> agoliveira: i trust you to tell the truth
<asac> Mithrandir: i see ** (hildon-desktop:25881): DEBUG: Failed to connect to DBUS: Failed to connect to socket /var/run/dbus/system_bus_socket: Connection refused!
<agoliveira> asac: Why wouldn't I do it?
<asac> at the beginning (line 11 or so)
<asac> agoliveira: i ment i don't have to setup clean chroot to see that it works ... i am sure that it does
<asac> and since my chroot has lots of other stuff installed i cannot really do a diff on a clean install and the one i have right now
<agoliveira> asac: Oh, fine. I tought you were using this one ony for testing UME. That's why I suggested that.
<Mithrandir> asac: bingo, restarting dbus in the chroot fixed it for me.
<asac> how do i do that?
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: it'll break for you too if you reboot and don't start dbus in the chroot by hand
<asac> and why does it start for agoliveira automagically?
<Mithrandir> /etc/init.d/dbus restart
<asac> lets see :)
<Mithrandir> I would guess he hasn't rebooted since he bootstrapped the chroot.
<rusty> Mithrandir, sorry... just popping in.... about that error: you see that dbus error if you chroot inside a file system that the system dbus is not running or if you did not start a clean environment and the connection to an existing session bus fails
<asac> Mithrandir: rock!
<asac> it works
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: IF I stop dbus indeed the error shows up.
<Mithrandir> rusty: yup, we just triaged it down to that now.
<asac> agoliveira: hell ... why didn't you tell me that you start dbus by hand :) ... is that on the wiki page?
<Mithrandir> no, it's not.
<asac> Enter the chroot and su - to the user created above. That will start the dbus session.
<Mithrandir> asac: that's plain wrong
<asac> that sounds as if its wrong
<asac> ok i will fix
<Mithrandir> rusty: does your project builder start dbus in the chroot automatically?
<rusty> one complicating factor is that dbus is automatically started with you install the dbus package, so people get a chroot working and don't realize that dbus was started so that they see the problem after rebooting
<agoliveira> asac: Because I didn't!
<rusty> Mithrandir, no, not yet... it's one of those things i want to add
<Mithrandir> this is why chroots suck. :-P
<rusty> but... i do have a wrapper for chroot to stick in all those details so people don't have to remember all the steps
<Mithrandir> or part of the reason anyway.
<asac> ok done
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure
<asac> though i use schroot ... but i think i people can figure out :)
<asac> Mithrandir: maybe there are hooks to execute something when entering chroot?
<agoliveira> asac: Actually I forgot to remove that reference yesterday.
<asac> he?
<asac> remove?
<asac> i just added something :)
<agoliveira> asac: "Enter the chroot and su - to the user created above. That will start the dbus session."
<asac> ah ... ok ... now it should be more explicit
<agoliveira> Sure
<asac> without that hint there was nothing about dbus at all
<asac> ok fine :)
<asac> lets move ahead ;)
<asac> is it a problem that sapwood-server et al are started everytime i run that startscript?
<asac> i killed them manually for now
<asac> damn ... now i get a bad X window crash when clicking on side bar
<rusty> doesn't the sapwood server die with X dies?
<Mithrandir> I've put a start-hildon script in the hildon-desktop pacakge
<Mithrandir> rusty: it does, yes, but gconfd keeps running
<Mithrandir> start-hildon should possibly go on a killing spree before starting anything.
<asac> hmmm on second try it works
<asac> cooollll i have firefox running :)
* agoliveira is feeling awfully useless today :(
<agoliveira> asac: I even run openoffice on it. Albeit useless is interesting to see :)
<asac> http://people.ubuntu.com/~asac/hildon.png
<asac> why is there such a huge blue area on the left?
<asac> it takes a way precious space here
<tko_> that's the status bar :)
<asac> he?
<tko_> bug
<Mithrandir> it doesn't look that way for me
<tko_> fixed in later hildon-desktop versions
<asac> ah :)
<asac> maybe fixed in bzr then
<agoliveira> asac: Are you sure you have a recent hildon-desktop?
<asac> hey i purged and installed ten times in the last 2 hours
<agoliveira> asac: This was solved some time ago and mine is fine.
<asac> what package version do you want?
<agoliveira> asac: Hold on a minute
<asac> dist-upgrade just brings me new libcairo ... so i appear to be up-to-date
<agoliveira> asac: 0.0.14-2ubuntu4
<asac> hilden desktop is 0.0.14-2ubuntu4
<asac> yes
<asac> same here
<agoliveira> Weird...
<asac> maybe there is some config file created in my home from last week?
<asac> does hildon create configs?
<asac> that i might try to wipe?
<agoliveira> asac: Check if /etc/hildon-desktop/desktop.conf has the last session commented out.
<rusty> The day before yesterday I saw Bob had the new layout of the desktop working (i.e. you no longer had the waisted space on the left hand side of the screen)
<rusty> so i guess bob has some check-ins to make
<asac> agoliveira: oh i understood from wiki that i should enable it:)
<asac> maybe misread
<asac> lets see
<agoliveira> asac: It does create a .osso directory so this might be
<agoliveira> asac: Ah
<agoliveira> asac: Actually this should not be a issue anymore as I already fixed on the package
<asac> ok all is solved
<asac> thanks :)
<agoliveira> asac: My pleasure
<Mithrandir> rusty: another solution would be to bind-mount /var/run
* agoliveira starts to feel a bit useful today at least ;)
* asac hugs agoliveira 
<asac> so now ... the menus in firefox should go away ?
<asac> is that the idea?
<asac> e.g. same for toolbar and locationbar?
<agoliveira> asac: That I don't know but it's quite possible as the idea is to have a integrated context menu due size/space restrictions.
<suihkulokki> firefox presumably does not use normal gtkmenus
<asac> yes right
<asac> i mean ... do we have a gtk applictaion or something that does that already?
<asac> suihkulokki: yes i know :)
<agoliveira> asac: AFAIK, we don't have any application already done to work inside that context but usually simpler things like gnome games behave much nicer.
<asac> how can i start an application? .. maybe we should add a terminal?
<asac> :)
<agoliveira> asac: Just go to a terminal and run DISPLAY=:1 whatever_app
<asac> yeah i know :)
<asac> so why doesn't hildon fallback to default icons if there are no in the theme?
<asac> e.g ** (hildon-desktop:26750): WARNING **: Error loading icon '/usr/share/icons/sun-java6.xpm': Icon '/usr/share/icons/sun-java6.xpm' not present in theme
<asac> while /usr/share/icons/sun-java6.xpm *exists*
<agoliveira> asac: I have no idea. Never dug into the theme stuff. Perhaps the Nokia guys can answer.
<asac> ok ... not really important
<asac> just would like to the firefox.png displayed :)
<agoliveira> Some icons actually work, some not.
<inz> http://inz.fi/mubu-abi.png
<inz> The theming really breaks :/
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Can you upload matchbox-window-manager-maemo?
<agoliveira> inz: What have you done?
* rusty notices that OLS is pretty lame this year
<agoliveira> Rusty: Really sucks when you go to an event like that and it's not what you expect. I remember FISL 6.
<rusty> i've been to OLS for the past... i don't know... maybe 5 years.  this year is weaker then past years
<inz> agoliveira, I edited /etc/hildon-desktop/desktop.conf and changed the tasknavigator orientation to bottom instead of left
<agoliveira> inz: So you're on your own for now ;) The Plankton theme is there because we need something to start with but I don't think it's going to stay.
<agoliveira> inz: and becasue hildon-desktop demands a theme as well.
* rusty signs off to listen to Len Brown's talk about thermal extensions
<inz> http://inz.fi/mubu-cpu.png
<inz> yay, my cpu load applet works ;)
<inz> if only the statusbar worked properly ;)
<agoliveira> Meeting in 62 minutes, right?
<agoliveira> I'm going lunch then. BRB.
<asac_> agoliveira_lunch: do we have an application that properly integrates its menu bars into the toolbar atm? ... so i can take a look and get an idea?
<tko> asac: look up hildon_window_set_menu() 
<asac_> tko: i know that method
<asac_> just wanted to see a real life example :)
<tko> n800 *g*
<asac_> hehe
<tko> well, hildon-control-panel actually
<agoliveira> Quick lunch today ;)
<asac_> tko: yeah ... i don't consider that a good example as its natural place is the control panel :)
<agoliveira> asac_: No, I don't but, sorry.
<asac_> i think i will try to hack gnome-terminal
<agoliveira> asac_: Forget the but ;)
<asac_> can i just set the gtk_menu ... as hildon menu?
<tko> asac_: you said you knew the function already :-P
<tko> asac_: yes, it takes a normal GtkMenu
<asac_> k cool
<asac_> i know like i have seen it in api :)
<inz> asac, check osso-xterm
<asac> inz: hmm appears to be not packaged :-P
<asac> yet
<agoliveir1> Damn freenode...
<agoliveira> Meeting in 10?
<ian_brasil> ola
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Oi Ian. Bem vindo ao nosso cantinho ;)
<ian_brasil> valew...acho melhor a gente se-fala em portuguese, ne ;)
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Voc que manda, mano ;)
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: I need to look at what's different there compared to the regular matchbox, but otherwise, yes, I'll do
<Mithrandir> hi rusty
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: There were several patches made by Nokia. I don't know what they do exactly.
<Mithrandir> No Bob here yet.
<agoliveira> Nope
<tko> agoliveira: my guess would be they add / fix window frame animation or fix window stacking issues
<agoliveira> tko: Yes, I saw that, I meant I didn't know what it would mean for us.
<agoliveira> So there's Bob!
<bspencer> agoliveira, good morning
<agoliveira> bspencer: Good afternoon ;)
<Mithrandir> morning, mr Spencer.
<tko> agoliveira: maybe you could get Matthew comment on them in ubuntu context.. generally there should be single way of doing the window stacking (i.e. no patches) but I don't know for certain
<Mithrandir> ah, Charlie is here already.
<charliefjohnson> Yep - I'm here.
<agoliveira> tko: Fine. Anyway, I put it in a different branch so we can jump back if necessary.
<asac> hi
<robr2> good morning everyone
<Mithrandir> amitk_: are you here or is it just your IRC client?
<Mithrandir> oh well, seems like he's not here, I think we can manage without him.
<Mithrandir> I'd like to get us started then, unless anybody sees anyone missing?
<rusty> hello
<charliefjohnson> Let's start.
<Mithrandir> Ok, the plan is to go through the list of specs, get status updates.
<Mithrandir> I suggest we just go through them in the default sort order on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile/
<Mithrandir> which then starts with mobile-app-framework
<Mithrandir> Adilson and I have been busy bringing in some more fixes, mostly packaging-related.
<Mithrandir> there are some problems running the code properly on AMD64/EM64T, so we recommend using a 32 bit chroot for now.
<asac> netsplit
<Mithrandir> yeah, I noticed.
<agoliveira> Gee...
<asac> bob is gone
<rusty> bobux, you listening?
<asac> maybe move to oftc for meetings :-P
<Mithrandir> we have lots of ground to cover, so I'll just paste him the backlog when he gets back.
* agoliveira sugests a minute of silence for those gone in the line of duty...
<asac> rofl
<Mithrandir> any questions about the application framework itself?
<rusty> how are the startup scripts comming?
<Mithrandir> I haven't started investigating them; Adilson, have you?
<agoliveira> Nope.
<agoliveira> I can take care of this.
<Mithrandir> ok, thanks.
<rusty> my hack has been to add a init script that does startx, and then move the hildon startup script to /root/.xinitrc (after removing the line that sets the display variable)
<agoliveira> As I mostly finished the panel, I can take some time for that.
<Mithrandir> the hildon startup script is now in the hildon-desktop package, btw
<Mithrandir> (called start-hildon)
<agoliveira> Yep, saw it.
<asac> does that replace the one in wiki?
<charliefjohnson> Is hildon-desktop a toplevel package that pulls everything else in ??
<Mithrandir> no, ubuntu-mobile is
<agoliveira> asac: yes
<asac> great
<Mithrandir> asac: it's the same, but it starts dbus too
<charliefjohnson> OK - thanks.
<Mithrandir> ok, let's move on.
<Mithrandir> Rusty has done great work on the image creation spec.
<Mithrandir> and the implementation seems to be good too.
<Mithrandir> rusty: we need to talk about how to actually do the package building since it'll build as a non-root user.
<rusty> the current implementation needs some work on how it creates initrd images
<Mithrandir> but we can do that outside of the meeting.
<rusty> Mithrandir, yea, i've even wondered if building the rootstraps should happen as a postinst script on the user's machine
<rusty> that would mean a much smaller deb package but a long install
<agoliveira> rusty: I would prefer that way.
<Mithrandir> or it could happen on demand when the user requests it.
<rusty> rusty, building the rootstraps at install time?
<agoliveira> rusty: Yes, but it's my personal feeling.
<Mithrandir> rusty: is there anything apart from the initramfs building and the rootstrap build issues that's outstanding there?
<rusty> oh, also... maybe the first time a user tries to build an image for a given platform
<rusty> Mithrandir, that's initrd building and rootstrap file creation are the two big items
<Mithrandir> ok
<rusty> beyond that it's bug fixing once more users are finding problems
<Mithrandir> of course.
<charliefjohnson> Do we have an estimate as to when we'll have UME images as part of the standard Ubuntu builds ?? Or at least have project builder available so that images could be generated ??
<rusty> and i think i know how to fix the initrd thing... did some study on the flight to Chicago
<rusty> well, first i need to fix the rootstrap and initrd issues
<Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: once we have worked out how to do build the package as non-root, it should be fairly simple.
<Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: I'd guess we'll have dailies either next week or during the sprint.
<charliefjohnson> what sprint?
<agoliveira> ... and The Root said "There be Bob!" and Bob is back... the The Root wonders if it was good or not...
<rusty> :->
<Mithrandir> the one in London starting July 9th
<charliefjohnson> That's news to me.
<agoliveira> charliefjohnson: There will be some intel guys there.
<rusty> we should setup an agenda item to go over what we want to accomplish for and what has to be done before the sprint
<Mithrandir> it's a Canonical distro sprint, and I sent an invitation to you (Intel); I can check exactly whom I sent it to.
<ian_brasil> is it open to the community?
<agoliveira> ian_brasil: Sorry, it is not.
<ian_brasil> ok
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: wait a second
<Mithrandir> ian_brasil: traditionally, it has been, but it's a sprint, and there are no sponsorships or anything given out for it.
<rusty> I'm still working on who from OTC will be there, but at the very least Bob and I will be in London... did you want to cover the sprint now or later in the meeting?
<Mithrandir> later's fine
<ian_brasil> i am in the uk waiting for my work visa for Brazil
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: I'm sorry. I tought this one would be diffent for being on Canonical HQ.
<Mithrandir> ian_brasil: ok; I can check what our position on it is.  I'm happy for a small number of people to come in, but it's just not a big community event like the UDS-es are.
<ian_brasil> cool, let me know
<Mithrandir> will do
<Mithrandir> let's move on?
<Mithrandir> mobile kernel
<charliefjohnson> No kernel reps ?
<Mithrandir> bspencer: do you want a paste of what you missed when you were away?
<Mithrandir> no, but I can give a short update on it.
<rusty> is there lpia kernel build available yet... i.e. something in the gutsy repositories
<charliefjohnson> Rob - Any updates on Poulsbo patches beyond what you already gave to Ben ??
<Mithrandir> rusty: no, we are having some problems getting LPIA bootstrapped.  I'm working on fixing it, but it takes some time, unfortunately.
<kylem> poulsbo patches are going to go into the next upload, along with a UME config.
<Mithrandir> kylem: oh, good.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: I'm good
<robr2> amit gave jacob a kernel to test with our patches applied, i've not heard from jacob on the status 
<kylem> amit kucheira will be taking over for me.
<kylem> i expect as soon as we can actually build something with a lpia chroot, we'll have a UME flavour on that arch as well.
<charliefjohnson> Question: How to handle kernel modules that are part of other blueprints such as graphics ??  (drm.ki & psk.ko) 
<charliefjohnson> s/ki/ko/
<Mithrandir> they should still go to the kernel team, naturally.
<rusty> charliefjohnson, will they not be a kernel patch?
<kylem> charliefjohnson, for the "problematic" ones, we'll likely put them in their own seperate packages, but will be maintained by the kernel team still
<kylem> the rest will be integrated.
<robr2> kylem: one problem we're having with the kernel patches is you need to pass in the kernel cmdline option "nolapic_timer" to get around a boot hang"
<charliefjohnson> The Poulsbo specific drm module (psb.ko) is brand new.  drm.ko however is the rewrite with the drm memory management.
<Mithrandir> robr2: make sure to file a bug about that and subscribe ubuntu-mobile
<kylem> charliefjohnson, right, we haven't really talked about it yet, but i've worked out in my head the easiest thing to do is for the UME config to turn off in-kernel drm entirely and build it seperately.
<robr2> Mithrandir: ok
<charliefjohnson> Great!
<kylem> charliefjohnson, mesa 7 should be in gutsy really soon now.
<rusty> kylem, that makes sense
<charliefjohnson> I saw Bryce's announcement.
<kylem> groovy, ok.
<kylem> oop, it already is in gutsy. cool.
<Mithrandir> even better :-)
<rusty> about the need for kernel arguments...
<amitk_> yup
<kylem> rusty, what hardware are you seeing it on?
<rusty> where do we handle that?  I am guessing in a device config package
<rusty> robr2,  the lpia systems in the lab
<kylem> rusty, probably easiest for this instance is to DMI blacklist it.
<Mithrandir> isn't that something which should be handled in a quirks table somewhere? (he says, waying his hand vaguely around)
<kylem> Mithrandir, yes, precisely.
<robr2> rusty: all poulsbo based systems
<kylem> is anyone investigating what the actual problem is, is it a hw bug, or the linux code not being flexible enough?
<charliefjohnson> This is where you have to pump the power button once to bypass the hang?  I thought Jacob had a fix?
<robr2> kylem: yes, we're investigating it
<kylem> robr2, ok, cool, thanks.
<Mithrandir> ok, sounds good.
<Mithrandir> move on?
<robr2> kylem: we suspect it's a kernel bug with some newly introduced Local APIC timer code in the kernel
<charliefjohnson> yes
<Mithrandir> mobile-ui; Spec's approved; Bob, what's the status?
<bspencer> Mithrandir: status on implementation?
<Mithrandir> yes, given the spec is approved, there's not much more to be said about that.
<Mithrandir> so, yes, implementation status.
<bspencer> we need a few things
<bspencer> control panel doesn't work
<bspencer> there's been some changes recently and we need tko to help us figure out how to integrate it
<bspencer> also I've got an almost working UI per the spec (the big icons UI)
<bspencer> a question I had:
<bspencer> some of this is just configuration changes
<bspencer> but if I make them in the default hildon package, you will no longer see the Maemo UI
<bspencer> it will always look like the new UI
<bspencer> is that OK with all?
<bspencer> It won't look like the old Hildon, per say.  
<agoliveira> Ok
<Mithrandir> I wouldn't mind, or we could just move configuration into its own package so we could choose by installing hildon-look-maemo or hildon-look-mid or hildon-look-whatever
<bspencer> I just need to check in a new theme, a new package of plugins, get control panel working, change the config.
<amitk_> robr2, charliefjohnson, kyle: sorry it took a while to read through the backlog. But jacob confirmed that my reworked patches were fine. They will be in the next kernel release
<bspencer> I can do that with agoliveira in short order.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: got it.  Good idea
<bspencer> Mithrandir: the last thing is to get some help with the startup scripts
<agoliveira> bspencer: Just say the word!
<bspencer> so that we can boot a device and get it up to the UI 
<bspencer> without having to manually run 3-4 steps.
<Mithrandir> bspencer: Adilson was voluntold at the start of the meeting. :-)
<Mithrandir> so he'll help you out with that.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: OK.  So we'll get the changes pushed up as quick as we can.  I'll talk to him today
<Mithrandir> great.
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Yeah, me and my big mounth :)
<bspencer> that will give us a UI that looks like the spec.
<bspencer> (thanks for approval)
<Mithrandir> do you have your code changes pushed to LP yet?
<bspencer> Mithrandir: some, but I have more
<bspencer> Mithrandir: and I haven't created the matching theme in LP yet
<Mithrandir> ok
<bspencer> Mithrandir: on a related note.  "Utilities"
<bspencer> that is the control panel stuff
<bspencer> I'm not sure of the status of control panel wrt Hildon changes
<bspencer> tko: are you on?
<agoliveira> bspencer: I just pushed it. Should be on repo soon.
<tko> bspencer: mmm, yes
<Mithrandir> the current bzr branch has the rewrite in it
<bspencer> tko, agoliveira is the new control panel stuff (refactored) already in ?
<agoliveira> Yes
<tko> I'm not the right person to talk about control panel though.. you'll want lucas for that
<bspencer> ok.  tko -- we couldn't get our control panel applets to work
<Mithrandir> it's not uploaded yet, since I couldn't test it, but it's in bzr.
<bspencer> tko: ok.  can you give me a name to ask after the meeting?
<agoliveira> It was a bit of PITZ to get it there but it's on bzr
<bspencer> I'm sure we're missing something small
<tko> bspencer: the lucas in ChangeLog
<agoliveira> s/PITZ/PITA :)
<bspencer> tko: we updated the "Utilities" blueprint that describes the control panel.  We put in a document (rough) about how to create a control panel
<bspencer> applet
<bspencer> it is based off of 3.x help and what we could figure out.  But the applet doesn't work with the new code.
<Mithrandir> ok, so move on.
<Mithrandir> ?
<agoliveira> Sure
<bspencer> sure
<charliefjohnson> yep
<Mithrandir> window manager - this is now approved, Adilson has done work on the bzr branches and asked me to upload, which I haven't done yet.
<Mithrandir> (since I was out shopping a birthday present for my wife when he asked)
<Mithrandir> I'll do so before I sign off for today
* agoliveira knows what is like ;)
<Mithrandir> any questions?
* rusty has a moment of panic thinking that his wife's birthday is comming up, or is it?
<bspencer> window manager -- and Xephyr
* agoliveira thinks that rusty might be in a BIG problem!
<bspencer> question:
<bspencer> will the gutsy Xephyr handle the composite transparency stuff and not clip the home plugins?
<Mithrandir> yes, that's just waiting for an xorg-server upload.
<Mithrandir> AIUI
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: You're too quick. I give up :)
<Mithrandir> ok, any more questions?
<rusty> so i should be running Xephyr from my gutsy chroot and not directly off my feisty install
<Mithrandir> yes
<Mithrandir> at least eventually
<Mithrandir> or rather, eventually you should just run gutsy.
<Mithrandir> I'll get bryce to mail the list when he uploads so people know what they have to deal with
<Mithrandir> next; graphics - pending approval; I've asked Bryce (our X person) to take a look at it, it's a bit thin, but if he's happy with it, I'm not going to protest.
<Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: how's the implementation coming along there?
<charliefjohnson> I have an functioning Apha 2D driver right now.
<charliefjohnson> We got internal approval to release external from Intel - So I can provide at any time.
<charliefjohnson> 3D is still in progress.
<Mithrandir> great; can you talk directly with Bryce and get that moving?
<charliefjohnson> Yes - I emailed him yesterday a couple of times.  No reponse yet.
<Mithrandir> I'll prod him with my electric cattle prod and see if I can get him to respond.
<charliefjohnson> He's local - I could just call him.  
<Mithrandir> well, prodded.  Gently so far. :-)
<charliefjohnson> Do you need anything more in the spec ???  
<Mithrandir> it's not I who will implement it, but I know that if I was going to make changes to our X packages based on the spec, it would not have been enough.
<charliefjohnson> I've asked Bryce to review.
<Mithrandir> yup
<Mithrandir> so let's leave it on his plate.
<Mithrandir> move on?
<charliefjohnson> yes
<Mithrandir> Browser is in review; I haven't had the time to review it properly today.  Bob, how is it coming along?
<bspencer> god
<Mithrandir> bspencer: iirc, it was your spec?
<bspencer> good
<bspencer> yes
<bspencer> visited briefly with you and asac yesterday
<bspencer> we have a pulled a branch of recent Mozilla
<Mithrandir> can you please set ubuntu-mobile as approver and yourself as assignee/drafter?
<bspencer> Mithrandir: yes
<Mithrandir> I can't because ubuntu-mobile doesn't have a relation to the spec.
<bspencer> have made changes for the font.  I'll work with asac on getting the git-repo up and ready to go.
<asac> bspencer: when can we talk a bit more in detail about it?
<bspencer> asac: you say when
<bspencer> after the meeting
<bspencer> or tonight at 2am.  You choose.
<asac> bspencer: actually i have to leave in a minute :)
<asac> do you work at weekend?
<bspencer> this weekend, yes
<asac> otherwise just ping me on monday
<bspencer> It would be great to work on it sooner, if you want to chat Saturday sometime
<asac> yes ... if you are in this channel i will try to get a grib on you :)
<bspencer> asac: give me a time sometime before my Sunday and we'll chat.
<bspencer> k
<asac> thats hard to say ... i have to figure out with my wife ... which is not here atm
<bspencer> details :)
<asac> i will try to tell you tonight (in a few hours)
<bspencer> sure
<asac> maybe we can chat then
<asac> even
<bspencer> Mithrandir: that's all I have for browser.
<Mithrandir> worst case, just mail each other with times you can meet up, or something.
<asac> we will figure out
<asac> ok i am out ... in a hurry
<asac> cya
<Mithrandir> ok, thanks.  Seems to be progressing; any idea when we can have something looking ok-ish and not just a browser crammed into too little space?
<bspencer> I don't have asac's email.  Mithrandir can you send?
<asac> asac@jwsdot.com
<bspencer> asac: thx
<asac> but i will come back in a few hours
<kylem> charliefjohnson, is there an agpgart kernel module for poulsbo as well?
<Mithrandir> bspencer: my question above is probably something you can answer?
<charliefjohnson> No - agpgart functionality is moving to the chipset specific drm module.  Apparently this isn't unique to Poulsbo.
<kylem> charliefjohnson, alright, thanks.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: sorry.  missed the Q
<bspencer> let's see on timing..
<bspencer> re-themed and packaged:  3-4 days
<bspencer> probably about 1month to see a new chrome
<bspencer> maybe less if asac jumps in strong
<Mithrandir> ok, thanks.
<Mithrandir> move on, or does anybody have any other questions?
<rusty> nope
<kylem> ok, i've fribbled the Graphics spec implementation section a bit... any objections?
<Mithrandir> Utilities; Bob, this is your spec too.
<kylem> just to make the packages needing modification a little clearer.
<bspencer> yes
<bspencer> we touched on briefly before
<charliefjohnson> kylem: I'll take a look.
<bspencer> this is control panel + configuration utilities.
<Mithrandir> I haven't had the time to review that today, sorry, I'll do so monday
<bspencer> Mithrandir: ok.
<bspencer> I think the big question is how to assign the configuration utilities.  They are not all known
<bspencer> they kind of trickle in as things progress
<bspencer> I put a short list in there (5-6) that I know we'll need
<Mithrandir> it says blocked; is that with the old control panel code or the new one?
<bspencer> just blocked that we don't have a working one in gutsy w/new Hildon changes.  (discusssed above)
<bspencer> agoliveira: going to save the day and make it work soon.
<Mithrandir> yup. :-)
<Mithrandir> so it should be unblocked either today or Monday.
<bspencer> k
* agoliveira starts to feel a chilly wind....
<bspencer> ;
<agoliveira> As soon as it uploads we can test it.
<agoliveira> It worked for me installed by had.
<agoliveira> hand
<Mithrandir> what to do about the control panel applets trickling in?  I think just writing about those you know about already, then listing "We might need more control panel applets" in the outstanding issues section might make sense.
<Mithrandir> and then create separate specs for those, if they're sizable.
<rusty> sounds like a plan
<bspencer> Mithrandir: ok.  But I'm not sure I know which one's we are writing yet.  I'll take a stab.
<Mithrandir> make a qualified guess based on the SOW?
<bspencer> yep
<bspencer> Canonical owns all
<bspencer> ;)
<Mithrandir> *cough* :-)
<rusty> but it list some specific items, right?
<Mithrandir> iirc, it does, yes.
<bspencer> I'll review and update the spec today
<Mithrandir> thanks; I'll approve it on Monday, assuming it's good then
<Mithrandir> is it useful for people that I send reviews publically to the list, or would you rather have me send them privately?  I was doing it so everybody can learn and you can see what is important to have in place in a spec and what the style should be.
<agoliveira> It's being useful to me at least.
<bspencer> I like public
<ian_brasil> me too
<rusty> same here
<bspencer> esp if you say "great job Bob, perfect spec"
<charliefjohnson> Public is OK - I just had to remember to look in the folder I was shuffling all ubuntu-mobile message into.
<Mithrandir> as long as people aren't unhappy about me saying "those are problematic areas in this spec" and taking it personally, since it really isn't.
<Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: I can Cc the drafter, if that'd be better?
<bspencer> Mithrandir: good idea.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: give it to us striaght.  We don't take offense
<charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: That would be good to.
* agoliveira never takes personally but it's aways good to think ways to escape UK ...
<Mithrandir> ok, good then. :-)
<Mithrandir> Move on, USB client.
<bspencer> that is one of the crappiest, half-baked specs I've ever seen
<Mithrandir> there was some discussion on the list about it, since apparently it was less clear than it seemed at first, so dumped back to drafting.
<Mithrandir> however, the implementation seems to have started already?
<charliefjohnson> My engineering in China made a couple of updates.  (Thanks Bob !!) Can you take another look?
<bspencer> charliefjohnson: ;)
<Mithrandir> it would probably be good to expand what CDC-EEM/RNDIS stands for.
<Mithrandir> it sound more like a missile control system or a crypto system than anything else. :-)
<charliefjohnson> I don't even know what it means! :^)
<charliefjohnson> I has a good picture though!
<bspencer> rusty had visited with the author about some changes
<charliefjohnson> I'll ask them to update some more.
<rusty> it means... the standard way of connecting a communication device over usb, or the crappy way to do it an have windows work
<rusty> I think we are missing the high level debate on exactly what we expect to see when you plug in one of these devices to your pc
<Mithrandir> it'd probably make sense for the implementors of the kernel bits to submit them to the kernel team too, so they can be reviewed and integrated early.
<Mithrandir> rusty: yes, your response to my critique was good.
<charliefjohnson> Yes - I'll working with them to make that happen.  
<Mithrandir> good
<charliefjohnson> I attempting to get them more directly involved instead of me being the middle man.
<Mithrandir> anyway, I think we've covered this well enough and I'd like us to finish soonish, so move on.
<Mithrandir> media player
<bspencer> mobile-mediaplayer:  following your advice to finish some all the way, and not partly do some, I didn't start due to time.
<Mithrandir> yup, that's fine.
<robr2> charliefjohnson: please make sure they work w/ jacob and me to get it integrated in our kernel too
<Mithrandir> could you have it written up fairly early next week?
<bspencer> our team is working on a media player.  Ken Wimer's graphics show some of what it looks like
<bspencer> Mithrandir: yes.  I'll finish that spec by next mtg
<Mithrandir> ok, nice.
<Mithrandir> a feature I've seen people ask for is gesture support, what are your plans regarding that?
<bspencer> we like the idea
<bspencer> getting the basic stuff first, then investigate
<bspencer> like being able to render a video at all.  or show pictures
* rusty thinks of a gesture and laughs to himself
<Mithrandir> of course, if it doesn't play music, having support for gestures is hardly helpful.
<agoliveira> Sorry but gesture support for the media player only or in general?
<Mithrandir> I've looked around for free software which does it, but most of it seems old.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: yes.  we're almost over the first hurdles.   
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: in general would be sweet, but I don't think we'll have it for the first generation.
<bspencer> gestures always sound cool.  in practice we'll see.
<agoliveira> Agreed. Just clarifying
<Mithrandir> ok, move on.
<agoliveira> bspencer: In pratice I never liked
<Mithrandir> build infrastructure.  No update here, I need to clear up some internal problems we're having so this can be unblocked.
<Mithrandir> I'm hoping we'll have that ready by next meeting.
<Mithrandir> next; hardware accelerated video decode; Charlie?
<charliefjohnson> Spec is Approved.  We decoding MPEG2.
<charliefjohnson> Moving on to VC1 & h264
<Mithrandir> that's just decode, no encoding of h264?
<rusty> how hard would it be to create a gstreamer codec for each of these formats?
<agoliveira> rusty: that would be sweet.
<charliefjohnson> We'll do encode also.  I'm doing the h264 work.  (Actual coding. what a novel idea!)
<Mithrandir> it sounds like it's coming along well?
<agoliveira> brb 2 min!
<charliefjohnson> We're looking into gstreamer option right now.  I'll have to ask Waldo for an update.
<bspencer> I'll enjoy bugging waldo for a deliverable
<rusty> when do you expect to get a first drop into bzr?
<charliefjohnson> We're very dependent on the HW IP vendor.  I need to work that with Waldo.
* agoliveira is back, feeling much better!
<Mithrandir> ok; so this is on track, gstreamer support is being investigated?
<charliefjohnson> I'll have Waldo join in on these meeting in the future.
<charliefjohnson> yes - no updates yet.  Right now it is Helix 
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> move on; mobile gnome components, Bob?
<bspencer> gnome-components: Should be ready for review.  Needs an implementer to check that the latest/right versions of each component are planned to be included.
<Mithrandir> can you make ubuntu-mobile the approver here too?
<bspencer> yes, doing that now...
<Mithrandir> thanks
<Mithrandir> I can do the checking of what parts need to go in, so put me as the assignee?
<Mithrandir> unless somebody else wants it
<bspencer> Mithrandir: you got it
<bspencer> Mithrandir: one issue is that some are going to be released in Sept with next gnome release
* agoliveira pretends to be looking the other way and whistling...
<bspencer> so we are tight grabbing that latest and putting it in gutsy
<Mithrandir> nah, GNOME has a standing upstream version freeze exception
<Mithrandir> I'll just make sure to get that extended to GMAE components too
<bspencer> ok. 
<Mithrandir> so we're good on that front.
<Mithrandir> it needs review too, but I'll do that on Monday.
<Mithrandir> iirc, I did today, but couldn't approve it, so I'll get to do it again.
<bspencer> my bad on the "Approver"
<Mithrandir> np
<Mithrandir> mobile-overview is Matt's spec, it's informational.  At this point, it's mostly about cleaning up the Mobile and Embedded front page, something he voluntold Adilson and I to do yesterday.
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: you're listed as the assignee on mobile VCS; is there anything to do there but say "we use bazaar"?
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: That's my feeling too. I spent some time yesterday just staring at it. Couldn't find anything to do but detail how bzr works, which is kinda silly.
<Mithrandir> I say mark it as obsolete then?
<agoliveira> Your call.
<agoliveira> I just couldn't find a better use for it.
<Mithrandir> there
<Mithrandir> mobile-development-environment
<rusty> We need an ubuntu-mobile-dev package that pulls in everything we need to enable building UME applications
<Mithrandir> yup, that's the goal + some docs.
<Mithrandir> it's drafting, I suspect it could be approved, I need to look at that next week.
<Mithrandir> I got it in my lap today so I'm not sure what the exact status is.
<Mithrandir> the implementation should be straightforward; just another metapackage
<charliefjohnson> Should it cover more than Application development ??  What about Drivers ??  
<bspencer> rusty: Mithrandir what does that include on top of hildon-dev ?
<rusty> bspencer, i don't know
<Mithrandir> bspencer: any GMAE development packages, maybe?
<agoliveira> bspencer: Perhaps Xephyr also?
<bspencer> yes, all good ideas
<rusty> charliefjohnson, i wouldn't image kernel development for UME to be any different then normal Ubuntu kernel development
<Mithrandir> rusty: agreed.
<charliefjohnson> Mithrandir: Even if it is just documentation that Gutsy desktop is the driver development environment.  We will have ODM and third party vendors which will not make it into Gutsy.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: although each app is different and may not need all hte GMAE dev pgks.  But definately Xephyr, Hildon-dev, automake/buildessential, etc.
<agoliveira> bspencer: I'll see that.
<Mithrandir> bspencer: sure, not all apps use all the functionality, but it's an easy way to say "if you install this on a clean system, your binary should work without any extra packages on a mobile system"
<bspencer> Mithrandir: but not necessarily the -dev pgs? 
<bspencer> you are talking of GMAE generally?  or?
<Mithrandir> no, but the development packages aren't needed for running the application.
<Mithrandir> so ubuntu-mobile gives you an ubuntu mobile "desktop".  ubuntu-mobile-dev gives you same, plus all the relevant development packages.
<bspencer> consistent.  
<Mithrandir> ok, move on?
<agoliveira> Ok.
<bspencer> yep
<charliefjohnson> Any comments on my last comment?
* agoliveira is eager to move on a cup of coffe...
<Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: ah, yes, sure, we can put in some docs which says how to do driver development.
<Mithrandir> that should address your concern?
<charliefjohnson> OK. Lets move on.
<Mithrandir> mobile-maemo-packaging-cleanup is also assigned to me; it should be approved even if we find something that we want to add to it later.  The actual implementation is going well
<Mithrandir> it's a fairly minor spec too
<Mithrandir> power-management-in-ubuntu; Amit?
<agoliveira> This is something I really look forward to find some time to do it.
<amitk_> yes?
<rusty> AtomicTodd, you listening?
<Mithrandir> amitk_: what's the status on that, what's missing for it to be approved?
<amitk_> mithrandir: the current document is too generic. We don't yet know the Intel-specific optimisations
<Mithrandir> which is why mobile-power-thermal-optimzations was added?
<charliefjohnson> There may be overlap betwen this and the next spec though you can't tell since the next spec is still a skeleton.
<amitk_> charliefjohnson mentioned that his team would be preparing specs for those..
<amitk_> right
<rusty> amitk_, you got the pointer to the power policy management wiki, right?
<amitk_> rusty: no
<Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: ok, so those are really both your specs to draft, or?
<rusty> it's on the ubuntu wiki... let me see if i can scare up that URL
<amitk_> mithrandir: we need a generic ubuntu spec and one specific to MIDs
<Mithrandir> ok
<rusty> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/PowerPolicyManagement
<charliefjohnson> I didn't really know what the first one was.  
<rusty> that's what AtomicTodd is working on
<amitk_> charliefjohnson: an overlap is fine as long as we get all the info on there. We can refactor later.
<Mithrandir> shiny diagrams!
<Mithrandir> it looks fairly sane from skimming it
<Mithrandir> but shouldn't it be a spec and not just a document?
<charliefjohnson> It sure should be.
<charliefjohnson> Why not replace the wiki page for  power-management-in-ubuntu with this one.
<rusty> this could be fodder for adding to the blueprint
<Mithrandir> rusty: either that, or just turn it into a spec
<rusty> i wasn't sure how this would work, so i just pushed todd to add it to the wiki
<rusty> either way, however amitk_ wants to run things
<amitk_> charliefjohnson: not a good idea. This stuff is going to take bl**dy ages to get accepted by linux-pm and lkml
<rusty> for lkml, it's easy since this isn't requiring any kernel changes
<rusty> it's just a user space stack on existing interfaces
<amitk_> rusty: I agree this could be the fodder yes. I propose merging this and the other spec from charliefjohnson to ONE spec for Intel MID
<charliefjohnson> PPM is an SOW item - so we need to figure out what the right thing is for UME.
<rusty> charliefjohnson, what's the other spec?
<amitk_> rusty: I will study this in more detail and get back to you next week
<rusty> ok
<rusty> do you have todds email?
<rusty> i'm not actually working on the code
<rusty> just the guys who get's kicked in the ass by my boss when it doesn't happen :-<
<amitk_> rusty: no. Why don't you send me a email with a list of all the people in Intel side contributing to MID kernel-space and low-level userspace and things like PM policy
<rusty> ok
<charliefjohnson> What was the conclusion on Todd's PPM stuff ?  
<charliefjohnson> From a spec point of view.
<rusty> conclusion?
<rusty> that we will work closely with amit to craft a working spec
<rusty> er.. blueprint
<amitk_> right
<Mithrandir> ok, can you have a good spec by next week?
<charliefjohnson> Is it going to be a separate spec, linked from the power-management-in-ubuntu spec ???
<amitk_> charliefjohnson: probably
<rusty> i'm thinking next week is realistic, amitk_, what do you think?
<amitk_> rusty: yes. It should be in a fairly good shape, if not complete
<Mithrandir> ok, good.
<Mithrandir> then we're halfway through the agenda.  Second point on it is plans for next week.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: one last Q on specs
<bspencer> Mithrandir: there was a spec on "ui style guide"  I wasn't sure if this was the right place for it.  It is now gone?  I added a long detailed document in there from Intel about "UI style"
* agoliveira think s that we really need a smaller agenda :-D
<Mithrandir> bspencer: let me see if I can find it again
<bspencer> Mithrandir: just curious.  We can do it after the mtg if you'd prefer, given the time
<Mithrandir> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-ui-style-guide
<bspencer> yes
<Mithrandir> it falls off the list when it's implemented
<bspencer> it is informational
<Mithrandir> yes
<bspencer> oh
<bspencer> got it.
<bspencer> never to be read again
<Mithrandir> hence it's implemented when it's written
<Mithrandir> *cough*
<bspencer> write-only specs.
<bspencer> np
<Mithrandir> it should probably be referenced from the front page of the mobile and embedded page.
<Mithrandir> I think we've covered where we think specs will be in a week fairly well, does anybody have other plans for the next week?
<bspencer> Bob assignments:  get tickets to sprint, finish media player spec, get browser started with asac, get new MID UI in gutsy
<rusty> I should have project-builder in a state where it could be added to gutsy
<agoliveira> rusty: That would be great
<charliefjohnson> There is a possibility of a new spec around Location Based Services.  (GPS aware Apps.)  The team is in Israel so haven't closed yet.
<bspencer> rusty: and renamed to Mobile Image Creator   ...er sumpin'   (bob hopes)
<rusty> i like a little mystery
<Mithrandir> rusty: yeah, we might want to rename it.
<Mithrandir> if you want mystery, use pwgen to name it.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: :)
<rusty> i already did that and got "project-builder"
<Mithrandir> haha
<Mithrandir> ian_brasil: do you have an update on docs?
<rusty> my project names are like my web sites... not not flashy
<charliefjohnson> Once it is in, then we can do actual Ubuntu builds as just another SKU besides Desktop and Server??  
<Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: EXPN SKU?
<rusty> by adding project-builder then all you have is the ability to do 'apt-get install project-builder'
<rusty> if your running gutsy
<Mithrandir> that's the goal, yes.
<Mithrandir> (to both of you)
<rusty> should we go over the sprint?
<Mithrandir> sure
<charliefjohnson> Before we do the sprint - Can we target Tribe-3 as the first to include a UME build ?
<Mithrandir> charliefjohnson: that sounds reasonable.
* rusty looks up the schedule
<Mithrandir> July 19th
<Mithrandir> we'll have some interesting logistics there since a lot of us will be at guadec, but I'm hoping it'll work out anyway
<charliefjohnson> I have internal test teams and Intel managers asking me every couple of days.
<Mithrandir> speaking of that, any progress on the Q1s?
* rusty hides
<rusty> they are scheduled to be arriving now
<Mithrandir> you've moved from "next week" to "later this week", I've noticed.
<charliefjohnson> HW is a pain in the butt.  
<rusty> but so far we have only recieved two of them (unless Mauri got some today)
<Mithrandir> ok
<agoliveira> I got an email from Maury and (he/she?) told me that they should be sent by the end of this week which mean today ;)
<rusty> how many of UME guys will be in London starting next week... would it be better for me to hand carry device for the 9th if they show up next week, or just ship the device for it to be waiting at the developers house when they get back from the sprint?
<Mithrandir> all of us.
<bspencer> agoliveira: Mauri is a girl
<agoliveira> bspencer: Nice
<Mithrandir> so for the sprint, I'm basically thinking we want to highlight any hot spots which require attention and we want to take a good look at the whole platform to see if we spot any uncovered spots.
<agoliveira> rusty: As I told her, that won't work for me due the taxes I would have to pay (60%!)
<rusty> agoliveira, if i hand carry to London?
<agoliveira> spot... I mean, agree
<agoliveira> rusty: Exactly
<rusty> ok, then shipping it is
<agoliveira> rusty: It's already arranged.
* agoliveira cliches the hands in antecipation ....
<rusty> how valuable would it be to carry over some menlow hardware (not for delivery, but for testing)?
<Mithrandir> rusty: would be useful, I think.
<agoliveira> rusty: I guess would be nice.
<rusty> it would be more interesting to hardware guys
<agoliveira> Yep.
<rusty> charliefjohnson, would the graphics stuff be far enough along on the 9th to bring up a stack on menlow hardware?
<bspencer> my schedule has me arriving mid-week.  I'll leave here Tues, I'll arrive tired Wed afternoon.  (July 11th)
<charliefjohnson> We have 2D up now.
<charliefjohnson> 3D - Maybe.  There is a replan going on to not need a closed source kernel module.
<rusty> charliefjohnson, not worried about 3d yet... for 2d, would it be in bzr in that time frame?
<rusty> in other words, out in the wild
<charliefjohnson> I plan on working with Bryce next week to get it in.
<robr2> charliefjohnson: there's still an issue with the kernel driver -- it still needs to be built outside the kernel tree (i.e. not a patch) but it's functioning from what i hear
<rusty> ok, i'll see if I can get Rob or Jacob to make the trip and carry a menlow development platform
<robr2> rusty: i told jacob to start on his visa yesterday for the UK
<rusty> visa?
<robr2> rusty: yes, he needs a visa because he's not a US Citizen
<rusty> oh, yea, forgot
<agoliveira> rob2: Weird... not even me need a visa...
<rusty> we don't need anything right?
<agoliveira> s/me/I
<rusty> i didn't something for Australia
<robr2> rusty: no, just your passport
<rusty> cool
<Mithrandir> ok, anything more for the sprint?
<robr2> agoliveira: he's a chinese citizen, i think that's why he needs a visa
<agoliveira> robr2: Oh, indeed.
<rusty> i think we are good, and i need to run to my hotel to get a couple of demo devices for the next talk
<agoliveira> Im' ok too.
<charliefjohnson> I won't be at the sprint since I have relative visiting that week.  
<Mithrandir> ok; I suspect we'll meet later then. :-)
<robr2> i'm not sure i can make it either...but jacob will be there
<charliefjohnson> We need to make sure the sprint announcements always go to the core Intel team (rusty, Rob, Bob and Charlie)
<Mithrandir> yup, agreed
<rusty> ok, gota go
<Mithrandir> if I failed to do that now, mea culpa and I'll do better in the future.
<Mithrandir> adjourned, then
<bspencer> whew!
<agoliveira> Ok, bye rusty.
<bspencer> on 2:20
<bspencer> only 2:20 
<agoliveira> That reminded me my times at No machine ;)
<Mithrandir> I think we want to discuss the format of the meeting at the sprint, so we can get it down to < 1 hour
<bspencer> Mithrandir: we had a lot of specs
<bspencer> there are fewer now
<agoliveira> But this one was a bit off because of the specs
<Mithrandir> they've all run over
<bspencer> perhaps we should report status ahead of time in someplace.  then we don't have to wait so long for responses and stuff.
<Mithrandir> anyway; we'll discuss it later
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: Sure
<Mithrandir> bspencer: yes, that's what we do for the distro team
<kylem> /win 99
<agoliveira> kylen:?
<jacob-laptop> does anyone know the address in UK for ubuntu sprint? i need that info to apply for a visa.
<robr2> Mithrandir agoliveira  amitk_  or kylem can you send the UK address info for the sprint in the UK to jacob-laptop ?
<agoliveira>  robr2: By email?
<charliefjohnson> Please send to me also. 
<agoliveira> Just paste me the emails and I'll collect the info (it's on a internal wiki) and send right away.
<agoliveira> OR I can post on the mobile ML.
<robr2> agoliveira: just send it to the mobile ML
<agoliveira> Ok
<robr2> thanks
<agoliveira> Done
<rusty> bobux, you listening?
<bspencer> rusty: hellow
<bspencer> helloworld
<rusty> halley seems to be in over his head
<bspencer> I could have tol dyou that last week when he arrived
<rusty> bspencer, btw, i didn't mean to say that his dbus server was started wrong, but I think he is running his media service on a terminal that doesn't have access to the display
<bspencer> rusty: I wondered that
<rusty> this service needs to open a window... so, that's not going to work
<bspencer> is it that simple?
<rusty> yea
<rusty> for the error about the DISPLAY
<bspencer> I'm still at home but I'll go by after lunch
<rusty> i'm sure he has loads of other issues
<bspencer> suggestions?
<bspencer> on the one hand he is probably banging his head against a wall and can't see the window.
<bspencer> but if I redirect him then it might take him awhile to ramp on a new task
<rusty> bspencer, i think he going to just have to take some time and learn about low level X... and Keith P. and friends would be a good resource (but tell Keith i said that)
<bspencer> right.  Maybe Eric?  (is that his name) could help
<rusty> eric, that's his name
<charliefjohnson> Eric Anholt - He a driver guy.  Not an X application guy.
<asac> bspencer: there?
<bspencer> asac: hello
<asac> oh great :)
<bspencer> are you in Germany?
<asac> for a minut i thought you are having lunch
<asac> right
<bspencer> so 22:18
<asac> hamburg ;)
<asac> yes
<asac> @now berlin
<asac> hmmm no bot :)
<asac> anyway
<bspencer> actually I have to leave for 15mins...
<bspencer> any chance you can hang for 15?
<asac> now .. ok
<bspencer> right
<asac> hope so
<asac> :)
<bspencer> got to swap cars, wife is waiting outside
<bspencer> be back quck
<asac> sure
<asac> gogo
<bspencer> asac: back
<asac> bspencer: cool
<asac> ok lets start ... what is your idea ... and more important what is the timeline ?
<bspencer> we can host the project
<bspencer> public in about a week's time
<bspencer> although we could get access for you earlier perhaps
<bspencer> git repo
<bspencer> starting with the base we talked about yesterday
<asac> ok ... i think i can start without access
<bspencer> asac: I think I have the general steps in mind
<bspencer> once we have the base project setup
<bspencer> we can split up the tasks
<asac> ok ... what are the steps?
<asac> first just theming and stripping down UI ?
<bspencer> ys
<bspencer> yes
<bspencer> then deciding on the end goal 
<bspencer> looking at features to show
<bspencer> 3) begin porting the menu to the top Hildon menu
<bspencer> 4) re-chrome 
<bspencer> #4 is probably multiple stages, which we could define
<bspencer> e.g. toolbar is easy, but menus might be a little more.   
<asac> what do you mean by rechrome?
<bspencer> change things to be a little more finger-navigable mainly
<asac> ah ok
<bspencer> and consider the smaller screen
<bspencer> a few ideas from the wireframes:
<bspencer>  - search box maybe slides out when touched, instead of always taking up space
<bspencer>  - remove buttons on toolbar -- only basics
<bspencer>  - scroll thumb behaves a little differently, or is semi-transparent
<bspencer>  (and a little easier to touch)
<bspencer> #5) Use the Hildon Window
<asac> hmmm don't we need that for the menu already?
<asac> e.g. hildon_window_set_menu ?
<bspencer> I think the menus can be done separately
<asac> a right
<asac> hildon_program_set_menu
<asac> iirc
<bspencer> I'm kind of a newbie at Hildon myself.
<bspencer> right, I could use a refresher when I get in there
<asac> yeah ... i tried to port gnome-terminal to hildon today for a few minutes
<asac> but ran into issues with the menu
<asac> e.g. the menu is just one gtk menu ... and not a menu_bar
<bspencer> it would be nice if we had GTK changes that did the switch automatically
<asac> e.g. you basically can set only *one* menu
<bspencer> yes, with submenus
<bspencer> but everything goes into a drop-down
<bspencer> and then File, etc. are on that one menu
<bspencer> (or we reduce the features)
<bspencer> Once we have that stuff done I think the browser should be usable at a minimum on the small device
<asac> ok ... so move everything one layer down
<bspencer> menus:  yes, that is the quick approach.
<bspencer> but maybe not the most usable
<asac> right
<bspencer> I'm mixed between making it behave /very/ much like Firefox people know, and making it simple and featureless.
<bspencer> there is a balance somewhere in there.
<asac> i think we should define how the menu will look like as we will probably not be able to use the *xul* menus anyway
<asac> so we are free to do what we want somehow
<bspencer> how do the xul menus get translated into Gtk menus now?
<asac> really on a low level
<bspencer> it would be cool if we could use xul menus
<asac> like drawing on device context
<bspencer> hmm, that's pretty low
<bspencer> :)
<bspencer> I wonder if there is a way to put something inbweteen that took the xul definitions and made them Hildon-ized
<asac> i think its safe that we will not be able to use xul menus in first version
<bspencer> ok
<bspencer> that's fine
<asac> my question is: how are hildon menus realized on a technical level
<asac> do they use XEmbed or something?
<bspencer> I'm unsure.
<asac> ok ... if its xembed we might actually be able to use xul menus (or any other element) at some point
<bspencer> are you at the sprint in July?
<asac> yes
<asac> next weekend :)
<asac> it starts
<bspencer> yes.  I need to buy some tickets
<bspencer> is launchpad a good place to track all this for now?
<bspencer> on the mobile blueprint page?
<asac> i think so
<asac> usually specs are documented in wiki
<bspencer> one question
<asac> and linked from blueprints page
<bspencer> alright.  I put some stuff up there already
<bspencer> but it isn't as concrete as "this is the menu"
<bspencer> and also sharing ideas discovered for how to change something , etc.
<bspencer> but let's use mobile-browser blueprint spec.
<bspencer> one question:  the tabbed browsing -- should the tabs be at the top of the screen or the bottom, in your opinion?
<bspencer> Hildon style puts their tookbars at the bottom
<asac> hmm
<bspencer> I'm thinking ideally the location is a configuration setting the user can choose.
<asac> are there other applications that use tabs?
<bspencer> other applicatoins that /will/ use tabs.   I'll have to look at my 770 / N800
<bspencer> like chat application will use tabs
<asac> yes it should be configurable if we really want to use tabs like they are in firefox
<asac> i mean if i look at the hildon desktop the window decoration is already somehow like a tab
<bspencer> it appears that way due to their theme
<Mithrandir> agoliveira: sorry, matchbox won't be uploaded today.  I'm just too tired to review this properly.
<bspencer> if you look at the mobile-ui spec, you'll see that it doesn't always have to look that way.
<bspencer> Mithrandir: slacker
<asac> you have a link at hand?
<Mithrandir> bspencer: yeah, I only started working 14 hours ago.
<bspencer> :)
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/Browser ?
<asac> that one?
<bspencer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserInterface
<bspencer> shows the top-level UI (or something like it).  with ideas inside for other options
<asac> i don't see how we swich between multiple applications
<asac> (running applications)
<bspencer> it would be a plugin on the marquee
<bspencer> drop-down, or like gnome panel, or other clever yet-to-be shown idea
<bspencer> it could also be just like Nokia UI
<bspencer> with a little arrow showing running apps
<asac> ah ok
<bspencer> we'll cretae plugins for all these and the user can organize them how they wish
<bspencer> ok.  so what can you do in the short term, before we have our repo accessible
<bspencer> you can edit the mobile browser spec freely
<bspencer> you can look into Hildon porting of Firefox
<asac> i can hack the configure.in ... so we have an --application=mdi-browser configure swtich
<bspencer> menus, or windows, toobars, etc.
<bspencer> yes
<asac> e.g. now you build firefox with --application=browser
<bspencer> mdi-browser -- must plays MDI music
<asac> rofl
<asac> what target name do you want then?
<bspencer> "Mobile Internet Browser" ?
<bspencer> kind of lame
<bspencer> eventually would be nice to get a name
<bspencer> but generic is good for today I think
<asac> MIB ... i thikn i mixed those letters
<bspencer> Well, we call our x86-based tablets "Mobile Internet Devices"
<bspencer> or MID
<bspencer> so we often refer to things as "MID Browser" "MID Media Player"
<asac> its your say ... but its probably not hard to change
<asac> ok so lets use application=midbrowser for now?
<asac> we can always change that
<bspencer> yes, good 
<asac> ok ... so i create a local branch of latest upstream 2.0.0.x  ... and add a branch where we will put our patches
<asac> on that branch i will work on the build system for now
<bspencer> ok
<asac> and take a look how easy we can use HildonWindow (maybe it just works?)
<bspencer> (we are using 2.0.0.4 as the base today)
<bspencer> maybe it just works
<asac> yes ... thats the latest
<bspencer> piece of cake
<asac> what did you do so far?
<bspencer> great.  thanks for helping out
<bspencer> import, retheme, remove Firefox
<asac> maybe you already have hacks that we can make proper?
<asac> bspencer: branding is simple
<bspencer> and change the package to use our "Welcome to your Mobile Browser" default webpage
<asac> ok so you really want to make a package right from the beginning?
<asac> we can base that on our latest firefox package ... should be fairly easy to adapt
<bspencer> we want to have something to put into an image that has the latest UI, browser, media player, etc.  Even at their early stages.   That's the only real reason we packaged it 
<bspencer> so someone could get a demo unit working quickly and see the latest progress.
<asac> ok ... i just think we should get at least the basic things gong before caring for packaging.
<bspencer> we'd like to regularly update our images so that people can play with the stuff on their Samsung devices (or other, as we discover other good devices)
<asac> ok i can provide a package rather quick ... maybe i can even get someone of mozillateam to help out
<asac> what is regularly?
<asac> every 2 weeks?
<bspencer> asac: it can just be local packaging -- for example in our repo only.  
<bspencer> not sure if we need to push up formally that part
<asac> ok ... just add it to todo list
<asac> i can provide a package as soon as we need it then
<bspencer> cool.
<asac> and updating package to latest is just a matter of rebuilding and changing changelog
<bspencer> I would say every 2-3 weeks, or when big changes take place
<bspencer> for example, in Tribe 3, it would be nice if the image contained a browser, even if it wasn't really optimized for the small screen yet
<asac> ok ... so lets say we try to get a first package ready at the end of spring?
<asac> sprint
<asac> :)
<asac> not spring
<bspencer> that is a good goal.
<bspencer> you are right that we can leverage the Firefox packgae
<asac> should be doable ... though who knows
<bspencer> question:  we looked at that package and it had a bunch of patches
<bspencer> do you write all those patches?
<bspencer> and do you verify them for ever point release (2.0.0.x) ?
<asac> no i don't write them
<asac> i untangled all ... from one huge monolithic patch
<asac> i wrote some ... but most are from bugzilla
<asac> bspencer: yes we verify like: we see if they still apply orif the issue they tackle is fixed
<asac> but usually i track them in bugzilla ... either submitted them on my own ... or trying to push upstream to include them so we can drop them from our package
<asac> my current goal is reduce our patchset with every new release
<asac> ... and try not to add new ... though sometimes i still have to.
<bspencer> of course
<asac> ok ... can you fill in the steps and a todo list into spec/wiki?
<bspencer> yes
<asac> i will look at it then and tell you if i see more... or if you forgot something
<bspencer> will do that tomorrow.  today I've got some other deadlines
<bspencer> good idea
<asac> cool .. have to go :)
<bspencer> thanks for your help
<asac> its late here... and my honey is waiting ;)
<bspencer> have a good night.
<asac> ok bye
<bspencer> sounds fun
<asac> you too
<asac> hehe
<asac> bye
<bspencer> be
<agoliveira> Mithrandir: No problem. Sorry for the delay, I was really distracted.
<bspencer> bye
<bspencer> agoliveira: hello
<bspencer> are you about to leave the office?
<agoliveira> bspencer: Unless you have a good reason not to :)
<bspencer> agoliveira: tell me yourunderstanding of the control panel status?
<agoliveira> bspencer: Simply put: none.
<agoliveira> bspencer: I just packaged the little prick. Have no idea how it works.
<agoliveira> Oh, sorry
<bspencer> :)
<bspencer> ok.  so it is in bazaar, but not upstream?
<bspencer> does your package include the newer, in-the-last-week control panel code?
<agoliveira> bspencer: Yes because it needs to be check and uploaded.
<agoliveira> Yes, it does.
<bspencer> so if I pull from bazaar, I should get a working control panel, hopefully
<agoliveira> Actually it was sync with svn hours ago.
<bspencer> I will do so, and change the code if I have problems for you to see patches.
<agoliveira> Just push there and it will be fine
<bspencer> we had some small dependency problems, but maybe you already addressed them
<bspencer> but that was just our pulling from svn, not from bazaar
<bspencer> so I'll try your stuff
<agoliveira> BTW, it deppends on l10n files which I also pushed. 
<agoliveira> You will see a dep for osso-app-killer. It's not needed.
<bspencer> ok, that rings a bell
<bspencer> if I want to create a configuratoin package for hildon desktop in bazaar, do I have the poewr to do that? 
<bspencer> on Monday I'd like to get the new user interface working, at least in bazaar and ready for pushing up.
<agoliveira> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
<bspencer> hildon-desktop now shows a Maemo UI
<agoliveira> You mean create a package?
<bspencer> but if you check out the mobile-ui spec, we have plans for a very different UI
<bspencer> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/UserInterface
<bspencer> to get there we need to split the hildon-package configuration stuff into a separate package
<bspencer> s/hildon-package/hildon-desktop package
<bspencer> so that a user can decide to load the maemo-config or the mid-config  settings
<agoliveira> I see. You should have not problems, just branch, hack, push
<bspencer> ok
<bspencer> and i have a new theme package too
<bspencer> and I have a new multimedia package too
<agoliveira> Once you're done, ask me or Tollef to upload (actually I'll ask Tollef as I can't do it myself :) )
<bspencer> groovy
<agoliveira> Same thing. AFAIK, should work for you as the same as for me.
<agoliveira> One warning:
<bspencer> yes
<agoliveira> The way maemo is (de)organized, specially regarding dependencies and locales can be daunting. Shout if you need any help on that. I'll shout with you ;)
<bspencer> yes -- the locales thing I still don't undertand
<agoliveira> The "daunting" part came from Happy Feet :)
<bspencer> I finally started grasping the theme. although I still  don't fully understand all the optimized grphics caching and sapwood stuff
<agoliveira> AFAIK, that was created to speed up graphics over Nokia tabletes. We will probably going to get rid of it.
<agoliveira> Anything else? If not, I'm off but I'll read my emails later or during the weekend if you need anything urgent.
<bspencer> nope
<bspencer> see you monday
<agoliveira> Bye. Have a nice weekend.
<bspencer> thx
<rusty> who joined? who quit?
#ubuntu-mobile 2007-06-30
<robr_laptop__> rusty: what all do you have working on the Q1 ultra under Linux?
<robr_laptop__> rusty: did you ever figure out the touchscreen or WiFi?
<rusty> i haven't spent any more time trying... so far the open areas are the touchscreen, the wifi, and the camera
<rusty> i think that the madwifi drivers in the restricted repository might work for the wifi
<rusty> but still need to try
<robr_laptop__> rusty: ok
<rusty> oh yea... haven't messed with ethernet since i was using usb ethernet
<robr_laptop__> rusty: r u avaiable to phone into a meeting?
<robr_laptop__> rusty: i think mauri is calling you now
<rusty> ring
<rusty> anybody awake?  Where are you guys staying while attending Guadec?
<bspencer> mawhalen ventures out in the cold cruel world
<mawhalen> mean
<rusty> bspencer, i know you have some dates... but did you book your Uk travel?
<suihkulokki> sorry if this is FAQ.. but why does lpia need a new architecture?
<Mithrandir> suihkulokki: because it is going to coexist in the same archive as i386
<Mithrandir> and we want differnt optimisation options.
<suihkulokki> Mithrandir: just optimisation, no difference in instruction set or ABI?
<Mithrandir> correct
<suihkulokki> ok, thanks
<HappyCamp-John> bobux, Trader Joe's chocolate at my desk!
<robr_laptop> HappyCamp-John: hope you brought enough for everyone on this channel
<HappyCamp-John> Pound plus! 500 grams for the metric users ;)
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-06-23
<popey> is the missing gpe-announcer a known bug for gpe-clock and thus ubuntu-mobile package install?
<lool> popey: gpe-announcer?  I don't think I recall seeing this miinstalling
<lool> *misinstalling
<lool> popey: How are you installing?
<popey> its a dependancy of gpe-clock
<popey> which is a dependancy of ubuntu-mobile
<popey> so ubuntu-mobile fails to install as a result
 * ogra bets popey misses a repo 
<lool> popey: How do you install ubuntu-mobile?
<lool> popey: apt-cache policy ubuntu-mobile? :)
<popey> I did a base install of jeos and apt-got a few bits and bobs, including ubuntu-mobile
<lool> popey: These packages are definitely installable in the hardy images if you use the ubuntu-mobile ppa
<lool> popey: Right, so you miss the ppa in your sources
<lool> But then we shouldn't have leaked this in the main seed
<popey> i have the ubuntu-mobile ppa
<ogra> hardy-updates ?
<popey> one mo, will spark it up
<popey> http://popey.com/~alan/sources.list
<popey> proposed seems to be the only one missing
<lool> popey: Are you using some vm?
<popey> ya, qemu
<popey> with the root fs on an sdhc
<lool> popey: So after apt-get update, what's the version of ubuntu-mobile you get in apt-cache policy?
<lool> popey: And what's the apt-get install error again?
<lool> popey: Also, not really an answer to your problem, but we provide a script to create qemu images of UME
<popey> it's not really a qemu image I am after tbh
<ogra> lool, a dep on gpe-announcer
<popey> I am using qemu on my big laptop to install onto an sdhc, which i will put in the eee pc
<popey> gpe-clock deps on gpe-announcer
<lool> popey: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEinstall-kvm is an old version I think
<lool> ogra: There's a broken dep?
<popey> candidate is ubuntu-mobile 1.103~804um14
<ogra> no idea
<ogra> but its the second ime i see that complaint in here from different persons
<ogra> *time
<popey> http://popey.com/~alan/um.txt
<popey> thats me trying to apt-get install ubuntu-mobile then gpe-clock
<ogra> root@osiris:/# apt-cache show gpe-clock|grep announce
<ogra> root@osiris:/#
<ogra> no direct dep at least
<ogra> root@osiris:/# apt-cache show ubuntu-mobile|grep clock
<ogra> root@osiris:/#
<ogra> same for u-m 
<ogra> root@osiris:/# apt-cache policy ubuntu-mobile           
<ogra> ubuntu-mobile:
<ogra>   Installed: (none)
<ogra>   Candidate: 1.102
<ogra>   Version table:
<ogra>      1.102 0
<ogra>         500 http://ports.ubuntu.com hardy/universe Packages
<popey> ah
<popey> i dont have ports.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> lpi is on ports.u.c
<ogra> *lpia
<lool> Ah
<lool> Perhaps it needs porting
<ogra> i wonder how it worked at all without ports
<ogra> a.u.c doesnt (or shouldnt) have any lpia packages 
<lool> He's not using lpia
<persia> ume-announcer is one of the packages that isn't in the archives: it's only in the PPA.
<persia> Needs REVU, not just archive reorg.
<ogra> ume-announcer == gpe-announcer ? 
<persia> The Ubuntu Mobile gpe-clock depends on ume-announcer, if I remember correctly
 * persia checks
 * lool goes for dinner
<popey> so it's a typo in the deps of gpe-clock perhaps?
<popey> given it says gpe-announcer instead of ume-announcer?
 * lool pushes smb's packaging
<persia> For me, it says "gpe-announce" on intrepid, no announcer for vaniilla hardy, and ume-announcer for Ubuntu Mobile hardy.
<persia> Where do you find "gpe-announcer"?
<popey> gpe-clock 0.25-3 doesn't have the dependancy, but 0.25-4ubuntu11 does
<popey> Version: 0.25-4ubuntu11
<popey> Depends: at, gpe-announcer, gpe-icons, libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.20.0), libc6 (>= 2.4), libcairo2 (>= 1.6.0), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.12.0), libgpelaunch0 (>= 0.14), libgpeschedule0, libgpewidget1 (>= 0.115), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.12.0), libpango1.0-0 (>= 1.20.1), libx11-6
<persia> Right.  That's just insufficiently tested for !=lpia.
<persia> Looks like you have the PPA, and are running i386, which is currently likely to be broken.
<popey> correct :)
<popey> bummer
<persia> popey: There are unfortunately a variety of other hacks that make Ubuntu Mobile Ubuntu Mobile, that depend on the architecture being lpia.
<persia> The plan is to remove these, but until then I recommend you run lpia.
<popey> thanks
<persia> If you can't get the lpia kernels to boot, I believe you ought be able to use an i386 kernel and lpia userspace (although I've not tested it).
<persia> Otherwise you're better off with a custom matchbox-based GNOME for now.
<ogra> should work given that lpia is simply i686
<persia> The reason being that quite a few apps won't be hildonised on other than lpia, which isn't ideal.
<popey> will give that a go, thanks!
<lool> wow something wicked happened when I launched the kvm and switched desktop
<lool> I'm scared
<lool> Anyway, I'm happy to report that the virtual-mobile-package WFM
<lool> popey: If you use the script I mentionned, it wil pull lpia instead of i386 by default
<davmor2> popey: not causing waves I hope :P
 * lool discovers dget-lp
<lool> Hackish, but might work, interesting at least
<persia> lool: It mostly works, although dget off ppa.launchpad.net is cleaner.
<lool> persia: I'm using a custom dsc lister here which throws ppa.l.n URLs at me
<ogra> where is that hidden ? (which package) 
<lool> ogra: ubuntu-dev-tools
<ogra> i only have dget
<lool> I find it handy to get .dsc lists for Debian, Ubuntu, and any other repos I care, whatever the dist
<persia> ogra: Same place we keep all the extra-hacky-dev-bits :)
<lool> It simply queries the pool
<ogra> heh, i never have anything but devscripts and build-essential installed :)
<persia> lool: The entire PPA pool, or just ubuntu-mobile?
<lool> http://paste.ubuntu.com/22389/
 * ogra tries out the ubuntu-dev-tools package
<lool> persia: Only ubuntu-mobile; I simply hardcoded which repos to query in the script
<persia> ogra: If you have any handy dev hacks, please share there...
<lool> I could make it more generic I guess, but it wouldn't really be useful to me
<ogra> persia, well, i tend to do things manually very often but will keep that in mind
 * lool has hacks, but like giving them in secret
<lool> *likes
<persia> lool: Is that based on your apt-cache, or something more complex?
<lool> It's like sharing a cooking recipe, I wouldn't blog about it, only if I ever make it to someone would I tell them how to make it :)
<lool> persia: It's querying the pool itself
<lool> persia: As in, directory index of http://archive.fo
<ogra> i have uploaded my classmate builder bzr branch though ... since its likely not to be used anymore in the future but probably someone can get deas out of the code :)
<ogra> *ideas
 * lool => drives home Â²
 * lool &
<persia> heh
<ogra> https://code.launchpad.net/~ogra/cmpc/cmpc-gen1-installer in case anyone is intrested 
<lool> I've pushed vmb to the ~vmb ppa; if you know what that means, you're welcome to give it a try when it's built ;)
<becky> when is ubuntu mobile set to be released?
<becky> I am wanting to get a nokia n810
<becky> anyone?
<stgraber> Nokia n810 has an ARM cpu, not x86. You can't use Ubuntu mobile on it (yet)
<becky> stgraber: do you think it will work when it is compiled for ARM? it only has 128MB ram
<stgraber> my test VM for UME has 128MB of ram
<becky> stgraber: great! any idea on ARM release date?
<stgraber> no but that won't be soon. AFAIK ARM was discussed in Prague last month so I don't think much happened since then
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-06-24
<becky> stgraber: thanks for the info
<becky> stgraber: i'm trying to build the code from git repo now and I keep getting; rsync: link_stat "tools/moblin-image-creator.git/packed-refs" (in repos) failed: No such file or directory (2)\ rsync error: some files could not be transferred (code 23) at main.c(1385) [receiver=2.6.9]
<becky> found the ubuntu instructions and I'm trying to set up the fset and it keeps giving me a target name error...   what is my target?
<becky> lol nm missed a step
<zhiyong> hello everyone
<zhiyong> Who know how to enable flash desktop in ubuntu mobile?
<persia> zhiyong: Modify /usr/share/ume-common-config/ume-gui-start to use a different desktop
<zhiyong> Sorry, I don't mean use another desktop instead of hildon-desktop, but use flash function of mobile basic home plugin
<persia> zhiyong: Ah.  That's not something I've tried.  Maybe someone else can ansewr.
<zhiyong> persia: thank you, anyway.
<lool> zhiyong: There's a gconf key to select which movie to use
<lool> zhiyong: Didn't try a flash one for a while though
 * lool see commits on moblin-compiz-plugins at Moblin
<emgent> hello people
<lool> hi emgent 
<emgent> hi lool 
<lool> Does anyone has strong feeling on the dates-hildon bug with missing icons?
<lool> It's ugly, but the fix is either to switch to dates (and lose hildonization) or change to a new icon theme, which means new package and twiddling gconf settings
<ogra> would that be twiddling gconf settings beyod adding a file to /usr/share/gconf/defaults to set the keys ? 
<ogra> (with one line only)
<lool> ogra: It should be something that simple, yes
<ogra> then i'd go for the latter
<lool> Doing that then
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-06-25
<emgent> heya
 * davidm is away: 
* persia changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to: is This channel is for conversations about Ubuntu Mobile development | Info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded | Please read the FAQ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ | hardy images available http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/mobile/releases/hardy/
<josch|nsn> hello thar!
<josch|nsn> are there package repositories for ubuntu mid edition?
<davmor2> josch|nsn: yes
<josch|nsn> \o/
<josch|nsn> where?
<davmor2> in the repos
<josch|nsn> oh let me have a look
<davmor2> there are some on ppa still too I think
<josch|nsn> hrm... can you hand me a link?
<davmor2> josch|nsn: most of it looks to be in the repos now
<davmor2> but type ume ppa into your search engine of choice and it is listed
<josch|nsn> http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/ <= this is it, thanks!
<asac> lool: so which moblin projects do we need write access to (at best) ?
<lool> asac: moblin-image-creator plus the list which you saw would be best
<lool> davmor2: Hey
<davmor2> lool :)
<lool> davmor2: We have a new mechanism to build images
<lool> davmor2: Would you be interested in testing it
<davmor2> cool
<lool> If it works for you, we can upadte the wiki page
<davmor2> np's amung everything else
<asac> lool: you mean "saw" like in bobs mail?
<lool> asac: Yes
<asac> lool: what changes do we do to mic?
<lool> asac: Sorry, I intended to go back to this email, but it would have needed me being in a calm state with plenty of time :)
<lool> And I was busy with misc other stuff
<asac> lool: me too
<lool> asac: To MIC we have a pile of patches which are in the BTS
<asac> lool: i just have that mail in my not-so-zero-inbox :)
<davmor2> lool: where is it?
<lool> Things like adding the released archive as new platforms, fixing grub menu.lst generation and other things
<josch|nsn> package mobile-basic-flash
<lool> davmor2: So the new way is to 1) add the virtual-mobile-builder ppa to your sources.list 2) install virtual-mobile-builder 3) run "sudo simple-mobile-builder"
<josch|nsn> how much flash is in ther?
<lool> josch|nsn: Some flash files, practically unused; why?
<asac> lool: congrats btw to the release :)
<lool> asac: ah thanks
<lool> Well it happened on the 11th
<lool> But it's official now :)
 * josch|nsn simply does not want binary blobs on his system :(
<asac> lool: good. just thought that i have a mail problem ;)
* lool changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to: UME released! http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/mobile/releases/hardy/ | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded
<asac> lool: ill answer his mail then :)
<asac> yay
<lool> Hmm is there a difference between http://cdimages.u.c and http://cdimage.u.c?
<lool> Looks like not
<josch|nsn> there should be none
<lool> josch|nsn: The blobs are the "source" so to speak
<josch|nsn> ??
<lool> josch|nsn: These files are the files you would open and edit from a Flash editor
<lool> They are binary just like you would save and load a .xcf in gimp
<josch|nsn> ah so they are only flash files but with their source included?
<josch|nsn> and only unused files and no executable binaries?
<lool> josch|nsn: The package is an home screen applet which can display either a HTML or Flash home UI (well it's always HTML and you can have Flash in your HTML)
<lool> There are some sample Flash files in there to demonstrate how it works, but I think these are currently broken
<josch|nsn> i fugured this from the package description
<lool> But the Flash files in there is what was saved from the Flash editor which created these files
<lool> And are what you would load from it
<josch|nsn> okay
<lool> (So they are the preferred form of modification and distribution)
<josch|nsn> i was just trying out to compile the source for arm - this is why i asked
<lool> Which source?  the mobile-basic-flash .dsc?
<josch|nsn> the source packages from the repo
<lool> Anyway, this should work fine if firefox built for you
<davmor2> lool: building :)
<lool> Hmm wait, it's xulrunner 1.8 though
<lool> josch|nsn: It should soon be easier to port :)
<josch|nsn> will a port be official?
<lool> josch|nsn: armel?
<josch|nsn> currently i run debian eabi
<josch|nsn> right
<lool> josch|nsn: It's not going to be official in intrepid, but there's going to be a port to armel yes
<josch|nsn> oh?
<lool> (a ports.ubuntu.com one, not an archive.ubuntu.com)
<josch|nsn> should i wait then?
<lool> Well do what you like :)
<josch|nsn> well if there is currently nobody running the ubuntu hildon stuff on arm then i should give it a try
<josch|nsn> and may it only be for the lolz to see ubuntu mobile on a neo1973 :D
<samjam> I'm interested
<samjam> I have an xda universal
<samjam> I've just been adding gtkbuilder/glade support to vala so I can write my armel phone apps in vala
<josch|nsn> i currently run debian sid on my device so compiling is easy (native compilation yeah!)
<samjam> Have you looked at titchymobile ?
<samjam> It's debian sid based afaik
<josch|nsn> yeah
<josch|nsn> but my only armel device is a neo1973 and a freerunner soon
<josch|nsn> as i dislike hardware not fully supported by linux
<samjam> I really want one with a keyboard hence finally going with the xda
<samjam> If the tytn had a slightly hgher res screen and linux support it would be tops
<samjam> if the freerunner had keyboard it would be tops
<josch|nsn> yeah but it is designed to be a phone not a handheld or tablet :/
<josch|nsn> but iu agree with you
<samjam> tytn isn't really a handheld
<josch|nsn> i only use my neo for hacking so i always have it connected via ssh - so a keyboard is not rly missing for me now ^^
<samjam> you may be right, I keep thinking I want to hack on the move, like while waiting for my children to finish youth night etc
<samjam> maybe its just fanciful thinking
<samjam> lack of camera kills freerunner.
<samjam> xda cam doesn't work either:-) 
<samjam> will you post your hildon progress to titchy mobile forum from time to time?
<josch|nsn> well if i achieve something i will report back here and write a tutorial on wiki.openmoko.org
<samjam> cool
<josch|nsn> but i expect massive fail on building the stuff from source :P
<samjam> what sort of reasons?
<josch|nsn> you never know before - i did a lot on arm and some things are a little bit strange when the app was written for i386
<josch|nsn> for example i compiled the sphinx search engine but i just returns 0 results on a search - i'm currently in touch with the dev but he cant think of a reason either ^^
<davmor2> lool: I am right in thinking that it set's up in ubuntu-vm-hardy-lpia
<lool> davmor2: Yup, something like that
<lool> davmor2: How do you find the new instructions?  I expect it's easier for you to install
<davmor2> easier yes but not completely happy with the end result.  The image only has all for a menu option and not all the apps are installed.
<davmor2> I'll try again
<davmor2> brb
<samjam> I guess sphinx may have related to non-symmetric byte-order conversions. i.e. missing in some places but not others
<davmor2> lool: right trying again
<lool> davmor2: Ah sorry
<lool> davmor2: You need to pass --platform ...
<lool> Just like in the past
<lool> I forgot this part
<davmor2> d'oh
<davmor2> :)
<davmor2> lool:  right re-building ;)
<davmor2> lool: That's better :) still got lpia module warnings 
<lool> davmor2: Cool, so we should move to this new procedure in the wiki page
<davmor2> lool: I'll take care of that in sec.  Do we know what is causing the lpia module issues and is it anything to worry about?
<josch|nsn> hm... as i didnt find any - is there a prefered audio player for ume?
<lool> josch|nsn: The pulled one is moblin-media, but you might be interested in trying our elisa if you have good graphics
<josch|nsn> oh? url?
<lool> davmor2: ogra had a proposed fix in form of an initramfs hook; I'm not too sure what originally causes them (compared to regular builds), nor where to push a clean fix
<josch|nsn> http://elisa.fluendo.com/ ?
<lool> josch|nsn: elisa package
<ogra> josch|nsn, and last but not least there are al theses "normal" media players in the archive you could just install i.e. banshee rhythmbox etc but ymmv depending if they handle the screensize :)
<josch|nsn> yeah i tried rhythmbox and sonata on my debian armel
<ogra> audacious might be intresting as it got a quite small UI by default
<ogra> (xmms successor)
<ogra> lool, the kernel still has module support so expects modules.dep to be there even though it doesnt need/use modules in the initramfs (i doubt that gais us anything btw, the 4 secs we gain in the bootprocess are lost on decompression time for the kernel image, it seems to just move the prob around)
<josch|nsn> woooo - elisa seems way to much for my little arm device ^^
<anipy> guys, i love you for the Mobile And Embedded edition! good luck!
<asac> lool: when was connman first announced? 
<asac> Feb 2008?
<lool> asac: Some months ago
<asac> lool: haha
<asac> lool: well. there is no news histroy on moblin.org :(
<lool> It was announced on the list
<asac> lool: can you figure the date?
<asac> hmm
<asac> ok got it
<asac> http://www.moblin.org/pipermail/dev/2008-April/001663.html
<lool> asac: http://www.moblin.org/pipermail/dev/2008-April/001663.html
<asac> ;)
<asac> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LinuxConnectionManagerIntrepid_(Informational_Spec)
<davmor2> lool: will the package pull in the other dependencies or not do you know?
<lool> davmor2: You mean MIC and ubuntu-vm-builder?  it does
<davmor2> cool what about kvm?
<lool> asac: rocks
<lool> davmor2: Hmm good point, I should make that a Recommends too
<lool> davmor2: Currently, kvm and MIC should be recommends as MIC is only used if you pass --platform and kvm is optional
<lool> ubuntu-vm-builder pulls qemu
<davmor2> lool: Okay np's for now I'll add it to the install list :)
<lool> davmor2: Because these are Recommends only, I think it's best to have them in the instructions
<lool> especially since hardy doesn't isntall recommends by default
<davmor2> lool:  I wish it bleedin did sometimes :)
<lool> davmor2: kvm recommends added
<lool> (in bzr)
<davmor2> lool: Hows that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEinstall-kvm
<lool> davmor2: Looks good!  I personally create /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ppa-ubuntu-mobile.list instead
<lool> But that's fine
<lool> davmor2: Hmm you still get that java issue with the new ubuntu-vm-builder??
<lool> davmor2: And you also get that sound issue at the bottoM?
<davmor2> lool: I don't have any sound issue
<lool> davmor2: I think the instructions at the bottom were merged in vmb
<lool> davmor2: Check the .kvm file, I think it passes the correct args already
<lool> davmor2: Same for java, do you still get that issue?
<davmor2> lool: which Java issue
<davmor2> removed the sound one
<lool> davmor2: The one for which there are fixup instructions on the page
<lool> "Once in the vm of ume go into terminal and type in the following to get rid of the java chroot issue "
<davmor2> yes got it looking in the wrong section :)
<davmor2> hang on and I'll quickly double check
<davmor2> and there we go gone
<lool> davmor2: So we can remove the fixups?
<lool> Ah it's gone, great
<davmor2> gone
<davmor2> brb
<josch> hello again
<josch> just modified ubuntu-mobile package to build for amel - now it's compiling hildon-desktop
<josch> the build deps are the pain :P
<josch> do you recommend an easier way for such a task than doing
<josch> apt-get source *package*
<josch> cd *package*
<josch> dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b
<josch> ?
<ogra> apt-get source -b <package> :)
<ogra> that should just build it right away
<josch> okay if you want to do it in one step...
<josch> but this fails if there is to fix something :)
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> but eases the pain a bit
<josch> just wanted to ask the pros if i'm heading in the right direction with this ^^
<ogra> well, we'll likely have an arm archive within the netx months i heard
<ogra> so the other option would be to just wait :)
<josch> ah... waiting is for pussies :D
<ogra> heh
<persia> josch: You may also want to consider an automated build system.  rebuildd might work (I've not tried any build-daemons, so this is just a guess, rather than a recommendation)
<ogra> or sbuild or so ...
<josch> can you give me a link for this stuff?
<persia> ogra: rebuildd can use sbuild, I think.  can sbuild automate building sets of packages?
<persia> josch: aptitutde install rebuildd
<ogra> no idea, i'm no buildd specialist 
<ogra> lamont would know
 * persia uses sbuild, but manually
 * ogra is pbuilder user
<ogra> but thats definately not made for automated builds
<josch> yeah i used pbuilder once
<stgraber> ogra: I have an automated pbuilder here :) push using ftp, receive build notifications by mail and generates some testing repositories
<stgraber> ok, that's an ugly python script but still, it's possible :)
<ogra> sure, its software :) but depends if you want to put effort in or just use a pre made setup 
<persia> stgraber: You might be interested in deb-o-maticm which is likely much of what you have, with a bzr repo to share.
<stgraber> persia: cool, I'll have a look at it
<persia> OK.  When you do, drop the final 'm' :)
<josch> wow it rly builds just fine on armel
<josch> on to the next package
<lool> BTW people I read that gconf was dbus in GNOME SVN now
<lool> josch: The software used at Debian is sbuild and wanna-build
<lool> josch: If you google this up, you will find random bits of documentation
<josch> lool, thanks :)
<josch> but dont i only need auto builder if i were to start an armel port on my own?
<persia> josch: Depends.  You might just want to build a bunch of packages without either writing a one-line script or doing it manually.
<lool> josch: It all depends on the complexity / stability of the setup you like
<lool> one shot or permanent etc.
<josch> yeah
<josch> thanks for your help guys
<josch> for now i think it's a one shot as i want to see how it looks/works
<josch> and wether it all compiles nice
<josch> could it be that the resulting packages i build from source have no install dependencies???
<persia> josch: If you don't change the packaging, you ought get mostly the same dependencies as an autobuilder.  If you use debuild or dpkg-buildpackage locally, you might get a couple additional dependencies, but only if those packages are installed.
<josch> well i just buld ubuntu-mobile meta package
<josch> and it seems to have no dependencies when i tried to install it via dpkg -i
<josch> oh
<josch> hildon-desktop deps work
<josch> never mind
<josch> hildon-desktop depends on maemo-af-desktop-l10n-mr but this is not in the repos
<josch> how can this be fixed?
<lool> josch: Probably a virtual package
<lool> josch: You want maemo-af-desktop-l10n-engb
<lool> (source is maemo-af-desktop-l10n)
<josch> i already searched for it
<josch> http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/ubuntu/dists/hardy/main/source/Sources
<josch> but there is no maemo source package
<lool> josch: Hmm I'm not sure you're attacking from the right angle
<lool> josch: The ppa is just an overlay on top of hardy
<josch> oh?
<josch> so this package should be in the hardy repos...
<lool> josch: The actual UME archive is made of three suites with 4 components at archive.mobile.ubuntu.com
<lool> (at least the hardy one)
<lool> The intrepid one is just, well, intrepid
<josch> right... http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/maemo-af-desktop-l10n-engb <= here it is
<josch> i the collection of repos anywhere documented?
<josch> it sucks to bother you guys here ^^
<josch> and why is there only maemo-af-desktop-l10n-engb and not maemo-af-desktop-l10n-mr
<lool> It's a virtual package, maemo-af-desktop-l10n-engb provides it
<josch> ah okay
 * josch adding even more repos...
<GrueMaster> davidm: ping - is there anyone online that I can talk to about getting a terminal window open in the compal image?
<josch> omg xulrunner is HUGE
<persia> GrueMaster: I'm completely unfamiliar with that image, but does Ctrl-Alt-F2 work?
<GrueMaster> That should drop to a text console, but I was hoping for a terminal window.  Older images had one linked to System Info.
<davidm> GrueMaster, I see tonyespy and tremolux are online here, they might be able to help or get someone that can help
<davidm> also pmcgowan is here, he might be able to help
<tremolux> GrueMaster: <Fn><n> should do it for ya
<GrueMaster> ah, there's pat.  used to be patm.
<GrueMaster> pmcgowan:  ping - how do you open a terminal window in the compal 0618 image?  Not a console (alt-fn).
<tremolux> GrueMaster: ^^  doesn't <Fn><n> work?
<GrueMaster> I don't have the unit, but I thought that would switch modes.  I'll pass that along.
<tremolux> GrueMaster: ah
<josch> argh xulrunner problems... :/
<josch> configure: error: iconv() not found.  Cannot enable native uconv support. <= anybody knows this?
<ogra> missing build dep 
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> iconv.h should be in libc6-dev
<josch> yep
<lool> josch: apt-get install build-essential
<josch> -.-
<josch> as i already compiled for some hours i think bulid-essential and stuff is correctly installed
<josch> i even build myself a linuxkernel on this device
<lool> josch: AFAICS, xulrunner 1.9 built on armel in Debian http://buildd.debian.org/~jeroen/status/package.php?p=xulrunner&suite=unstable
<josch> hrm...
<lool> Debian's xulrunner might have armel fixes
<lool> http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/x/xulrunner/current/changelog mentions some
<lool>    * (was: debian/patches/38_armel.dpatch)
<lool>      configure.in, configure: Force to not use -fshort-wchar where it fails.
<lool>      Closes: #476303.
<josch> i just removed the configure option for now
<josch>    * debian/mozconfig: Enable iconv support.
<josch>    * debian/patches/01_native_uconv.dpatch: Fix for the build to succeed when
<josch>      iconv support is enabled.
<josch> so i disabled it - hope nothing will explode :P
<josch> configure: error: Your compiler does not follow the C++ specification for temporary object destruction order.
<josch> gnaa
<lool> josch: That's fixed by the patch I mentionned above
<lool> See Debian #476303
<ubottu> Debian bug 476303 in iceweasel "iceweasel: ftbfs on armel: temporary object destruction order" [Normal,Closed] http://bugs.debian.org/476303
<josch> you are one step ahead of me it seems...
<suihkulokki> josch working on armel?
<josch> suihkulokki, debian armel on neo1973
<suihkulokki> cool :)
<josch> hehe
<josch> cool if it builds correctly ;)
<suihkulokki> faster to apt-get install from debian/unstable :)
<lool> Yeah :)
<suihkulokki> now that finally we managed to get all necessary fixes to a) build b) make it run on armel
<ZDeedlit> hallo, a question: does Ubuntu MID come natively with the core Xiph codecs (Theora, Vorbis and Speex) like standard Ubuntu does?
<lool> ZDeedlit: Most things in Ubuntu are an apt-get away
<lool> Unless when some lpia porting is needed, but that's uncommon
<ZDeedlit> lool: thanks for the reply, but I meant natively, as in no need for the casual user to apt-get it
<ZDeedlit> anyone knows for sure?
<josch> suihkulokki, there is xulrunner-dev in the armel repos?
<suihkulokki> josch: xulrunner-dev and iceweasel, in unstable
<suihkulokki> not yet in lenny
<josch> ah no
<josch> libxul-dev
<suihkulokki> libxul-dev is depreceated
<josch> but obviously gets required by the ume packages i loaded
<josch> specifically by the package mobile-basic-flash
<lool> ZDeedlit: For which framework?
<suihkulokki> josch: you can, possibly, replace the depend libxul-dev with xulrunner-dev, if mobile-basic-flash is compatible with xulrunner1.9
<lool> it's not in UME right now
<lool> The fixes are ready and are waiting for someone to merge them upstream
<josch> there seems to be another error
<josch> there is the source package xulrunner-1.9 in the ume ppa repo
<josch> and this builds xulrunner-1.9-dev
<josch> but nevertheless mobile-basic-flash depends on libxul-dev
<josch> another meta-package?
<lool> libxul-dev, in Ubuntu, is xulrunner 1.8 stuff
<lool> We use xulrunner-1.9 for everything except mbf
<josch> hrm...
<suihkulokki> and xulrunner 1.8 does not have arm eabi support
<josch> seems so
<suihkulokki> so, you seem to have painted yourself to the corner M)
 * lool introduces josch to the joys of porting
<josch> hehe
<josch> phew
<josch> heading to bed now
<josch> thanks for all the help and patience!
<ZDeedlit> lool: which framework?  I don't understand.  Do you mean there are different versions of Ubuntu MID?
<lool> ZDeedlit: Which player to you care about?
<ZDeedlit> which player comes by default?  I assumed something with a gstreamer backend
<ZDeedlit> or are there no applications set by default?
<lool> ZDeedlit: Exactly, by default moblin-media comes preinstalled and it's GStreamer based
<lool> Alternatively you can install any other player you like, a popular one seems to be Elisa
<ZDeedlit> all right, cool
<ZDeedlit> are the gstreamer packages for the codecs I mentioned available by default?
<lool> ZDeedlit: ogg theora and ffmpeg packages are installed by default
<lool> So providing at least two decoders for each
<lool> speex is too
<ZDeedlit> neat, though the ffmpeg stuff should be considered due to its patents
<ZDeedlit> re-considered*, I mean
<ZDeedlit> anyhow, thanks, that's what I wanted to know.
<lool> ZDeedlit: The ffmpeg in question is the Debian/Ubuntu stripped one
<lool> well Ubuntu in this case, as they differ IIRC
<ZDeedlit> oh, okay then
<lool> gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg is in universe; would it have patents issues I guess it would be in multiverse instead
<ZDeedlit> I suppose
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-06-26
<dholbach> good morning
<dholbach> you have an enthusiastic tester at your command: http://dthomasdigital.wordpress.com/2008/06/26/would-ubuntu-mid-edition-be-perfect-for-my-latitude-x1/ :)
<persia> Hmm.  He's offline now.  Thanks for the pointer: I'll try to poke him when he comes around next.
<jpt9> hey.
<jpt9> just heard about the version of Ubuntu for MIDs.
<jpt9> I'm running Windows (I know... I've been meaning to install Ubuntu for a while); is there anything (a CD or hard drive image) I could run in Qemu to try it?
<lool> Hmm I thought grew a rebase command, but I can't find it
<lool> +bzr
 * lool needs obviously more coffee
<seeitcoming_> what's the default user on the ume kvm image called?
<fedefede> hi guys!!
<persia> seeitcoming_: ume
<fedefede> may i ask somethingabout ubuntu ubuntu-ume??
<fedefede> is it possible to use ubuntu MID distro on asus eee pc 701??
<persia> fedefede: You can certainly ask questions about Ubuntu on Mobile and Embedded devices.
<seeitcoming_> persia: and the password?
<persia> seeitcoming_: I think it's "ubuntu".
<persia> I might have those backwards.
<seeitcoming_> no, those are right. Could that possibly go on a wiki somewhere? :D
<persia> fedefede: You can try installing it.  I haven't heard of any successful tests on that device.  It might need an Ubuntu Deskop kernel.
<persia> seeitcoming_: Sure.  Please feel free to add it.
<fedefede> uh...right!!
<fedefede> tanks verymuch!!!
<fedefede> bye bye!!!!
<davidm> Good day all, almost time for the MID meeting
<lool> Yup
<davidm> #startmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting started at 11:00. The chair is davidm.
<MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
<davidm> Hi everyone, the meeting has started, the agenda is on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/Meeting/20080626
 * GrueMaster wakes up for the meeting
<davidm> and it's quite empty at the moment
<davidm> I missed last weeks meeting and I don't have access to the mootbot logs as yet 
<davidm> I don't think there were any actions from last week however.
<davidm> Does anyone have any topics for this week?  The agenda is still empty.
<lool> Nope
<lool> We didn't have particular actions for today
<lool> Last weeks' meetings were relatively quiet as well
<lool> We discussed virtual machines and release
<davidm> Yes, they have been quiet for almost a month now.
<cgregan> In light of the breakage in the updates...should we discuss best practices for pushing things to archive? 
<GrueMaster> Question:  Status of S3/S4 issues?
<davidm> [topic] discuss best practices for pushing things to archive
<MootBot> New Topic:  discuss best practices for pushing things to archive 
<davidm> lool, can you address this as we see it now?
<persia> o/
<davidm> hi persia you are up late
<lool> Yes
<persia> It's Thursday.  I like the meeting.
<lool> What we have it the UME release archive, archive.mobile.ubuntu.com
<lool> the ubuntu-mobile ppa
<lool> and the hardy repositories (hardy, hardy-updates, hardy-security, hardy-proposed)
<lool> The hardy suite wont ever change, since hardy is released
<lool> updates will go either via security if they are security issues
<lool> Or via proposed then promoted to hardy-updates for SRUs
<lool> Concerning UME, we use the ppa for all packages which differ from the hardy version
<lool> So if we ever forked a package for UME in our ppa, this is where it needs to be fixed
<lool> So if a SRU comes out for say xulruner-1.9 which is in the ppa, we have to prepare a new xulrunner-1.9 in the ppa, test it, and then promote it to the UME release archive
<lool> However for the kernel for instance, we just copy hardy-updates / hardy-security sources and binaries to the UME release archive
<lool> We can also prepare additional changes for UME/hardy, but I'd recommend focusing on intrepid now
<lool> Is any part of the above unclear?  a particular area where I should tell more?
<persia> It might be worth a quick overview of best practices to get updates into intrepid.
<cwng> Will current bug fixes for UME still goes into the hardy base UME, or will it only goes to Interpid based UME?
<davidm> I agree our focus is on Intrepid.  For any changes to UM&E/MID we must follow Hardy process even if it touches our PPA
<persia> cwng: The bugs would have to meet the requirements for a Stable Release Update.
<persia> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<davidm> thanks persia I was looking for that URL:
<lool> As persia indicated, anything which isn't forked in UME can follow the regular SRU process, and we apply basically the same type of QA checks for UME specific packages
<davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates 
<lool> Concerning intrepid versus hardy, it depends on the impact of the bug
<lool> Typically, high impact bugs are likely to warrant a hardy upload while low impact one aren't
<lool> Always fix bugs in intrepid first though
<lool> This is in most cases a requirement to accept SRUs
<GrueMaster> So, is there an intrepid base for MIC and UME yet?
<lool> No
<lool> At the moment, StevenK has modified livecd-rootfs to build images of UME
<lool> This tool is the one which builds the squashfs images for the main Ubuntu builds
<lool> This work is to the point where he can boot UME/hardy from a live USB stick
<lool> But there's no installer
<lool> Discussion in the coming weeks will revolve around such an installer and integration of livecd-rootfs builds with the current Ubuntu builds
<lool> StevenK will also look on building intrepid images soon I hope
<davidm> I expect we will start daily builds soonish, once we resolve the installer
<davidm> Is there more on this topic?
<lool> I think we can even start them without an installer   ;-)
<davidm> lool, I suppose could at that, they do work.
<davidm> :-)
<persia> The current builds work for a live environment, for basic testing.
<lool> I also wish we start building KVm images of intrepid
<lool> The seed cleanups I made this afternoon will help in this respect I would guess
<davidm> lool, I think so, 
<davidm> so moving on to the next topic
<davidm> [topic] <GrueMaster> Question: Status of S3/S4 issues? 
<MootBot> New Topic:  <GrueMaster> Question: Status of S3/S4 issues?  
<davidm> DebbieFoghorn, do you have any input on this?
<lool> Concerning the beeps, she discovered some of them were caused by a bogus pm-utils script IIRC
<lool> I think an empty or almost empty script dealing with 3G status or something was returning with an exit code which caused gpm to beep to reflect a failure
<lool> The script was removed
<davidm> Yes, I've seen some traffic on the bug list about this.
<davidm> ChickenCutlass, bfiller is DebbieFoghorn in the office right now?
<bfiller> davidm: I think so, but I'm not :)
<DebbieFoghorn> davidm: I am! Reading IRC now
<davidm> bfiller, thanks Hi DebbieFoghorn 
<davidm> DebbieFoghorn, the question is around S3-S4 status and I knowi you have been doing a lot in that area
<DebbieFoghorn> Basically, gnome-power-manager is very sensitive to any errors it receives when it tries to put the device in suspend
<DebbieFoghorn> We call our own sleep script rather than call pm-suspend
<DebbieFoghorn> If any non-zero status is returned or anything is written to stderr, then
<DebbieFoghorn> hal (which calls our sleep script for us) will return an error and gpm will beep and fail to resume properly
<ogra> if its only the beeps, these are all switchable through gconf keys ...
<jerryfan> hello debbie. regarding the beep issue, after clean up in sleep.d, we found no more so far. Doing more intensive testing tmr
<ogra> so you can disable them 
<DebbieFoghorn> ogra: I did not see a gconf key that disables the sound
<ogra> look for "alerts" 
<DebbieFoghorn> ogra: ok, will do
<ogra> hum, i wanted to point you to the path but dont seem to find them now :(
<DebbieFoghorn> ogra: though its not just the beep--gpm seems to follow a different code path when it detects an error and results in an improper resume (screen remains black)
<ogra> ah, there is /apps/gnome-power-manager/ui/enable_sound
<lool> /apps/gnome-power-manager/notify/sleep_failed?
<DebbieFoghorn> ogra: Note that in the code, I do not see it checking a gconf key before playing the suspend error sound...
<ogra> lool, yeah, these ... there are more in the notify path
<jerryfan> but there is new problem. We found on some sample, 3G and webcam are registered on different usb bus number. So S20powermanager for selective suspend will generate error to stderr again and S3 fails again
<ogra> DebbieFoghorn, yeah, and it would just hide the actual prob ... 
<ogra> you said you suspend through hal, dont you use pm-suspend/-hibernate ? 
<ogra> they should wrap around the hal calls and apply quirks etc 
<DebbieFoghorn> ogra: we do suspend through hal but we changed the hal code to call our own sleep script rather than pm-suspend
<ogra> ah
<jerryfan> Who knows how kernel deals with USB host ? Why on some JAX10 sample 3G is on USB 4-1 and some are on USB 3-1??
<DebbieFoghorn> jerryfan: you had a question about the web cam's device path changing
<DebbieFoghorn> jerryfan: you just beat me :)
<DebbieFoghorn> jerryfan: i don't know the answer, by the way :(
<lool> is that important?
<jerryfan> I think it is not dev path change becasue /dev/ path is still same. It is /sys/bus/usb/ path different
 * ogra wondered the same ... all you want from a cam is /dev/video, no ? 
<lool> If you ever search for a USB device, I guess you could locate it by device class, vendor id or whatever?
<ogra> yes, and rather use lsusb output and parse that 
<ogra> or if you want a lower layer to see HW, dmidecode ...
<jerryfan> nah.. In /etc/pm/sleep.d/ we put usb selective suspend on absolute sysfs path to echo selective suspend enabled msg to device. Since the sysfs path is different, we have problem to send selective suspend now
<lool> Perhaps you can reach the same device over a different static sysfs path
<lool> Or look at all sysfs devices until you find the one you want to special case
<ogra> jerryfan, that shouldnt o to /etc/pm btw thats for local admins ... for packages use /usr/lib/pm-utils/
<jerryfan> in addition, there is no web cam on USB 1-4, so sleep.d will make error msg and makes g-m-p suspend fail and beep beep
<lool> Well that's all a consequence of looking to shutdown USB 1-4 insteadof looking up where the webcam is and shutting it down ;)
<jerryfan> lool, yea we are trying to lookup /dev/video0 and /dev/video1 and traceback their sysfs path. Hope it will solve the problem
<ogra> lshal can be helpful here
<ogra> just look for the module ;)
<ogra> if you knoe the 
<ogra> name indeed
<jerryfan> ogra, thx. will try
<GrueMaster> So, if I understand all this correctly, the problem is that the scripts are hardwired for a single system, as opposed to being more generic?  That would explain why it fails on CB.
<ogra> you might also be able to query hal with a dbus message to give you all info ...
<persia> GrueMaster: Precisely
<ogra> right
<jerryfan> ogra, what did u mean " for package should use /usr/lib/pm-utils" ?
<ogra> jerryfan, if you do it from the distro dont use /etc/pm ... look in /usr/lib/pm-utils, it has the same structure ... 
<jerryfan> ogra, i see. 
<ogra> the etc place is reserved if people poke around or start working around bugs for their local scripts
<ogra> (i must admit i use /etc/pm myself on the classmate, ignoring that ... but knowing its unclean :) )
<jerryfan> hey, did u guys know that I made linpus lite booting into 10 seconds :)
<davidm> OK is there more on this topic right now?
<ogra> jerryfan, well, i have still 10 to shove off, but getting there http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/hardy-20080623-5.png
<davidm> Are there any other topics?  The wiki page has nothing else.
<GrueMaster> I'm good for now.
<davidm> OK, then if there is no other business ending the meeting going once .............................................
<jerryfan> i just have a request here. Can someone find out how kerenl deals with USB bus number.
<jerryfan> I afraid we have more things not generic enough and might fail soemthing
<davidm> We can ask Amitk once he is back (I think he is on holiday)
<ogra> i think thats rather udev than kernel
<davidm> ogra, it might be, I'm not sure.
<ogra> but not 100% sure
<jerryfan> but udev deals with /dev path
<lool> I would have thought it's kernel
<jerryfan> sysfs is populated directly from kerenl
<ogra> ah, right
<davidm> I'll take the action to poke Amitk about it.
<ogra> indeed
<jerryfan> no more question
<davidm> [action] davidm to poke amitk about how kernel populates sysfs relating to USB bus number
<MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to poke amitk about how kernel populates sysfs relating to USB bus number 
<davidm> OK anything else?
<lool> davidm: Thanks for chairing the meeting
<davidm>  ending the meeting going twice ...................................
<davidm> lool, it's nice to have been free this time....
<lool> and bon appÃ©tit to you if you're getting lunch
 * ogra would like to anounce that he was officially told to help filing the gap for netbooks on the distro/mobile team side ... fo feel free to poke me with issues :)
 * lool will get dinner now
<davidm> #endmeeting
<MootBot> Meeting finished at 11:52.
<ogra> s/fo/so/
<lool> ogra: Fix my bugs!
<davidm> lool, I am indeed heading for some food
<ogra> lool, doing already :P
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-06-27
<alka_trash> umm, probably a frequent question, but do the KVM images work with Virtualbox?  :)
<andy_lin> whois StevenK 
<andy_lin> oops..  sorry
<Tipolosko> hi :)
<mryoung> would ubuntu mobile run on a one a110 ? www.a110wiki.de
<persia> mryoung: Possibly.  Several people have asked about using it on the VIA C7-M, but I've not seen any reports as to whether it does or not.
<persia> You'll need to install the special graphics driver manually, and probably make several configuration changes.
<mryoung> i tried to boot a live usb image.. with lpiacompat kernel
<mryoung> so far no luck
<mryoung> might have been my usb stick tho.. got many squashfs read errors
<persia> Hmm.  Hard to say then.  Which target image were you using?  McCaslin?
<mryoung> yes
<persia> Does it boot off a i386 live image?
<mryoung> can i create a i386 live image with the image creator, or do you mean in general ?
<persia> I don't think image creator does that.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveUsbPendrivePersistent has some documentation on how one might create an image with other tools, although I've not tried it myself.
<mryoung> well i got an external cdrom.. and i can install regular ubuntu hardy just fine
<persia> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick might be another method, although that is for creation of an install image.
<persia> mryoung: Right.  Unfortunately, that doesn't test the USB boot on the device :)
<persia> It might be the kernel, or it might be the USB stick.
<mryoung> heh.. well i also created a debian boot usb stick.. which worked
<persia> OK.  That's sufficient then.  Thanks for the details.  I believe you've confirmed that the lpiacompat kernel doesn't boot on the C7-M.
<mryoung> i got 2 via machines here.. a 10" and 7".. on both i would like to see a working version :)
<persia> That said, you might be able to force an i386 kernel with lpia userspace, and get something working, but it would be a bit of a hassle.
<mryoung> hmm.. is there a way to create own platforms for the image creator ?
<persia> I'll recommend not using the mobile interface on the 10".  I use it on a 7" (Kohjinsha SR8), and firmly believe it would be better on something with higher DPI.
<mryoung> well the 10" is a 1024x600 resolution
<persia> Sure, but that's fairly low DPI :)
<mryoung> heh.. well thats something one could work on aswell :P
<mryoung> i think something like this should even work on all kinds of screens
<persia> If you want to redefine image-creator platforms, you likely have to modify the source (apt-get source moblin-image-creator), but note that if you don't use lpia userspace, you may encounter issues due to differences in compilation (e.g. Hildon support).
<mryoung> theres a real market for such "easy mode" linux systems
<persia> Oh, it works on all kinds of screens.  I just don't think it's the best interface for the larger set.  It's designed for 4-6" screens at close to 200DPI.
<mryoung> hmm.. what are the differences to netbook remix, if i may ask ?
<Keule|guest> hi there
<Keule|guest> can someone help me getting ubuntu 8.04 connected with my windows mobil 6 mobilephone??
<persia> Keule|guest: You likely want #ubuntu: this channel is about creating a flavour of Ubuntu for use on handheld devices.
<Keule|guest> ok persia i thought -  someone here can help - thanx 
<persia> mryoung: I've not evaluated the netbook remix in detail.  I understand it to be derivative of both Ubuntu Mobile and Ubuntu Desktop, with a few extra parts.
<mryoung> netbook remix might be the better choice for the 10" i guess :)
<persia> Possibly.  I think that is likely has a better "simple mode" interface for the lower-DPI screens.
<persia> The alternative would be to use Ubuntu Desktop, switch from metacity to matchbox, and maybe adjust a few settings to your liking.
<mryoung> would need to install the hildon stuff tho :)
<persia> Why?
<mryoung> aint it that fancy gui ?
<persia> No.  It's a framework to allow simple applications to interface easily in an integrated envionment.  It provides the panel (as replacement to gnome-panel), as a GUI element.
<persia> There are a number of common hildon widgets, which can make things look different, and it needs les window decoration, as the menus are handled in the panel directly.
<mryoung> so is the gui just a modified openbox ?
<persia> That said, it also runs everything as a single process to reduce resource requirements: unfortunately this means that if anything crashes, everything crashes.
<mryoung> oh
<persia> Well, matchbox is the window manager.  mobile-basic-flash provides the home screen.  Each application otherwise provides it's own interface.
<persia> So, I'd recommend using hildon if you're likely to only use the default environment, or if you have very limited RAM or processor which would benefit from hildon.  Otherwise, you may as well just tweak GNOME.  Most McCaslin or Menlow machines have a bit more CPU&RAM than the targets for which hildon was originally designed.
<persia> (Most have more CPU&RAM than a lot of laptops that run Dapper)
<mryoung> interesting.. wasnt hildon in charge for starting all apps maximized ?
<persia> matchbox does that.
<mryoung> ahh
<persia> Mind you, these are all components of an integrated system.  The closer you look, the more modular it appears.
<persia> If you can't run an lpia kernel, you either need to have an i386 kernel with lpia userspace (which might break in unexpected ways), or you need to customise regular Ubuntu (which has many of the same components, but not so much hildon).
<persia> Which is the right answer for your application depends very heavily on what works, what you want to do, and how much effort you can put it to get it done.
<mryoung> what role does gnome-mobile play ?
<persia> GNOME Mobile is one of several upstreams to Ubuntu Mobile (and therefore the packages are available within Ubuntu generally)
<persia> There's also some stuff from the older GPE Palmtop Environment work.
<mryoung> well. i got enough time
<mryoung> the question is.. will one solution work for endconsumers you sell devices to
<mryoung> or is all this too unstable for now
<persia> Good luck then.  If you find a change that works nicely, and doesn't adversely impact Ubuntu Desktop, please file a bug so you don't have to have as much local modification.
<mryoung> yes.. thats something i am aiming too for.
<mryoung> local mods means more work for me creatinmg reset DVDs or usb sticks
<mryoung> if stuff works out without local changes.. i might be able to use remastersys without a prob
<persia> Right.  If you're planning commercial release (as might be indicated by your previous comment), you may need some local mods for branding, etc. (to follow the remix rules), but the more you can get upstream, the better.
<persia> Anyway, it's late here.  Good luck, and come back to ask more or report successes.
<timboy> I'm thinking of getting a nokia n810. do you think an ARM port will surface any time soon? if not anyone know if there is a good alternative that is x86 for about the same price?
<timboy> anone on?
<timboy> would ubuntu mobile even function on 128mb ram?
<GrueMaster> working in 128M is not so much of a problem as it is to port the entire image to arm
<timboy> GrueMaster: i heard that they were planning it. just didn't know if they had a timeline?
<GrueMaster> I have tested it with 128M.  Not much room for doing stuff, but it will at least boot.
<GrueMaster> Not sure.  I'm personally on the other side of the fence.
<GrueMaster> IA only.
<timboy> GrueMaster: what device do you use?
<timboy> i'm looking for something similar to the n810 that will run it
<GrueMaster> The devices I'm working on aren't on the market yet.  Soon, though.  Very soon.
<GrueMaster> There have been a lot of announcements on the internet recently.
<timboy> sounds cool GrueMaster will it be something similar to the n810? should I hold off my purchase?
<GrueMaster> It will be similar, except ia32 based.  I've played Quake III on one.  Not too bad.
<timboy> wow any idea on price point?
<timboy> how far out is release?
<GrueMaster> price point depends on hw config.  I'm guessing $300 to start, but I could be way off.
<GrueMaster> Should be next month release.
<GrueMaster> I know the units I have now look hot.
<GrueMaster> Think PSP with a slide down keyboard and touch screen.
<GrueMaster> 2 cameras as well.
<timboy> sounds great! thx GrueMaster i'll be watching engadget
<convivial> hi!
<convivial> is this place for windows mobile prorgamming?
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-06-28
<cruiseoveride> what is the difference between Menlow and McCaslin?
<persia> cxo: Different chipsets (including the processor, graphics, IO, etc.).
<persia> In terms of Ubuntu Mobile images, mostly just different settings, defaults, and drivers.
<cxo> are they the same arch?
<persia> Both are arch: lpia, if that is what you mean.
<cxo> is that x86?
<persia> Somewhat.  It's IA32, but a different architecture in the control files.
<cxo> the kvm image available on the site, can i boot that on a p2 
<persia> No idea.  You could try it.  There was a report recently that the lpia kernel didn't book on a C7-M, so I'm not very confident it would work.
<cxo> what version of glibc is on the image, i have a kernel handy i can use
<cxo> i basically just want to check out the userspace stuff
<persia> It's the same version of glibc in the rest of Ubuntu, just compiled for arch:lpia.  You can look at the source for Ubuntu Hardy glibc to see the specific differences.
<cxo> it
<cxo> it'l probably work
<cxo> persia, it worked
<cxo> i used vanilla-2.6.25.9
<cxo> whats the root password?
<persia> cxo: There isn't one.  Which image are you using?  The KVM image?
<cxo> yes
<cxo> i've never used ubuntu before.. but its trying to fsck the fs
<cxo> which is shouldnt do, how do i tell it not to
<cxo> cos, i'm pxe'ing it and the rootfs is nfs
<cxo> persia, the lpia kernel even booted nicely on the p2
<cxo> but i'm not using it cos it doesnt have nfsroot support
<persia> Check /etc/fstab.  I think for no fsck, you want "0 0" in the last two columns.  Beyond that, I'm a little stuck, and would suggest asking on #ubuntu
<persia> Also, thanks for the report that the lpia kernel booted cleanly on the P2.  I wonder why it didn't work on the C7-M.
<persia> Oh, and for passwords: I think you want user "ume" and password "ubuntu" for the KVM image.
<cxo> i shorted it out by replacing fsck with a shell script
<persia> Well, that's one way to do it :)
<cxo> it hangs on "Starting .... hald"
<persia> Anything useful in /var/log?  How about dmesg?
<cxo> hmm, ive got netconsole, let me reboot and try again
<cxo> the fs is on my machine, /var/log/messages looks good
<cxo> Jun 19 10:04:27 ubuntu -- MARK -
<cxo> last msg
<cxo> oh shit Ubuntu has NetworkManager as well
 * cxo can't seem to get away from that
<cxo> i hate fedora for such shit software, and its on ubuntu too!?
<cxo> were would hald log to?
<cxo> hmm i think the dhcpd is actually killing it (the service before hald)
<cxo> its breaking the connection of the nfsroot
<persia> I think hal mostly puts the interesting bits in /var/log/syslog.
<persia> Lots of people run Ubuntu without NetworkManager installed, it's just installed by default.
<cxo> whats chkconfig on ubuntu?
<cxo> i chroot'ed into the rootfs from my machine
<persia> chkconfig?
<cxo> its not in PATH
<persia> It's not present.  What is it supposed to do?
<cxo> oh
<cxo> turn off/on services at startup
<persia> Ah.  I think you want "update-rc.d", although there is an effort to move more stuff to upstart, so this won't work for services in /etc/event.d
<persia> That said, you may also want to look at the various files in /etc/default, depending on your goal.
<cxo> i shorted, /etc/init.d/dhcbd|hal and ive got a console now
<persia> Be warned that a running hal is an expectation of a few things: I suspect most of the HW related stuff just won't work.
<cxo> the screen keeps blinking
<cxo> i thought hald was just for information?
<cxo> i didnt know it did any configuration
<persia> It's the mechanism by which most software gets information about the hardware.
<persia> Does it look like X is trying to come up and failing?
<cxo> yeah sort of
<persia> You may need to alter /etc/event.d/session to use a different xorg.conf
<cxo> i cant type on the keyboard because of that
<persia> Right.  You'll want to edit that in the chroot, and then re-PXE the device.
<cxo> ume/password didnt work
<cxo> i chrooted from my host, and passwd -d root, and logged in, and init 4, and the screen stopped blinking
<persia> These images are fairly heavily customised for the target environments, and not yet generic enough to work cleanly on most hardware.  Part of why it was called a "developer" release.
<persia> ume/ubuntu?
<cxo> oh woops
<cxo> doesnt matter now
<persia> Well, except that there's an expectation you won't be running as root.  I do suggest you set a ume password, and use that.
<cxo> alright, i just reboot after fixing xorg.conf
<cxo> lets see what happens
<cxo> oh sweet i got to the desktop
<cxo> very nice
<cxo> argh.. i dont have a rat
<cxo> So Intel is planning to compete with Symbian with Ubuntu MID?
<cxo> wtf is wrong with vi....
<cxo> "the command is not available in this version"? what "version" of vi is this?
<persia> Try vim.  I can't speak for any corporate intent for Ubuntu MID, but I personally find it more dynamic than the Qtopia environment I've been using.
<persia> I also like the integration with Ubuntu Desktop: it ought be a lot easier to enable various file sharing and mobile/workstation integration features.
<cxo> but its too heavy for a phone
<cxo> maybe a 1ghz pda or something
<cxo> my p2 is struggling with it
<cxo> and i have 384mb of ram in it
<cxo> and 8mb ati rage
<persia> It's not really desgined for a phone: it's more for the 4-6" handheld segment.
<persia> I have a phone that is mostly a computer (3.5" 852x480), and I find it exceedingly frustrating to use as a phone because I need to dial like a computer, yet frustrating as a computer because it's a little too small (I prefer my 4" handheld).
<cxo> i love the desktop, i would use this on my pc
<persia> Makes sense.  I tend to not like full-screen everything on my workstation, but I have a large screen.
<persia> Anyway, must run.  Good luck with your project, and please file bugs if you find something doesn't work right.
<cxo> not a project, just trying it out, liked the screenshots on phoronix.com
<cxo> or .net cant remember
<cxo> not bad, i extracted the root.raw, and dd'ed out partion1, net booted it, and got it to the desktop with internet access in less than 2hrs
<cxo> Suggestion, throw Songbird into the rootfs
<cxo> its a wikid app
<cxo> and great for MIDs
<jimcooncat> Is the Samsung Q1 Ultra the only device this runs on? $1,170 US = ouch!
<quirky-mo> Hey all, I'm wondering if anyone here can give me a quick bit of advice wuth UME
<persia> jimcooncat: It can run on lots of devices: I use a Kohjinsha SR8.  That said, the image available online is optimised for the Samsun Q1U: for anything else, you'll need to do some local optimisation.
<persia> quirky-mo: What sort of advice do you need?
<quirky-mo> well i have it up and running on my eeePC
<persia> quirky-mo: You do?  Did you need to do anything special to make it work?
<quirky-mo> but i'm having trouble figuring how to get the clutter interface up and runng
<persia> Clutter?  Are you sure you installed Ubuntu MID Edition?
<quirky-mo> well i have it installed on top of JeOS with ubuntu-mobile package installed from lauchpad.net repos
<persia> quirky-mo: Aha.  Which architecture?
<quirky-mo> i386
<quirky-mo> i can actuall give you a link to the exact steps ive taken so far
<quirky-mo> http://wiki.tenmilesout.net/index.php?title=Ubuntu_Mobile_Edition_-_Base_Installation_-_Eee_PC_Specific_Kernel
<persia> quirky-mo: I'm not sure how to get clutter working, Ubuntu Mobile is mostly based on hildon.  That said, many applications are only hildonised for lpia, so you may find it a little hard to get it working under i386.
<persia> Reading your instructions, that really ought to work.
<persia> Unfortunately, ubuntu-mobile wasn't really complete or well tested for architectures other than lpia for hardy.
<quirky-mo> I just have it up and runng to have the basic interface running but not able to figure out how to get clutter running
<persia> One of the goals for intrepid is to try to get the ubuntu-mobile metapackage to do the right thing, but for now you may find you need to adjust several more things (although you've already listed a lot).
<persia> You have a hildon desktop running?
<quirky-mo> yes the mobilebasic hildon is working: basically this one http://ubuntista.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/ubuntu-mobile.jpg
<quirky-mo> works very well tho
<persia> That's good to know.  I thought it would have issues on i386.  I'm glad to hear I'm wrong.
<ogra> lpia should work on everything that 686
<persia> I see a libclutter-0.6.0 in the repos, but not a lot of rdepends.  Looking upstream, it seems to be a library interface, which may need application targeting.  You'll probably do better with the upstream information.
<ogra> (and will likely be faster than -386)
<persia> ogra: We had a report yesterday that lpia wouldn't boot on a C7-M, although that might be a pathological case.
<ogra> well, C7 isnt 686
<ogra> that needs the 586 instructions
<persia> Ah.  That explains it.  I thought everything was 686 these days.
<ogra> which lpia doesnt provide ...
<ogra> nah, many of the geode shipsets, the embedded SiS CPUs and some of the VIAs arent 
<persia> Hmm.  I wonder if we still ought have the special i686 stuff in the i386 flavour: might it make sense for any i686 people to run lpia, even for Ubuntu Desktop?
<ogra> we had that prob in ltsp before when -generic didnt do 586
<quirky-mo> lpia kernel doesnt boot on eeepc, (celeron m 900)
<persia> -generic didn't do 586!  I thought -generic was supposed to work even on 486.
<ogra> whats the error you get ? 
<ogra> not back soem releases ago 
<ogra> there -386 was 486 and 586 ... -generic was 686
<ogra> -generic was then switched to support 586 
<persia> NO specific error was reported.
 * ogra notes that the eeepc might have one of the realtek NICs that prevented booting before the -18 kernel update ....
<ogra> (just a guess, i dont have an eee here ... but had a similar prob on the classmate PC)
<jimcooncat> persia, sorry not to respond. thanks for your comment
<quirky-mo> aetheros NIC, and its a pain, cos I have to pact the Madwifi drivers every kernel update
<persia> ogra: Hmm.  Anyway, while having proper support for 586 (and maybe even 486) in i386 makes sense, the architecture oughtn't matter so much.  It's unfortunate that one needs to run lpia userspace for best results.
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> quirky-mo, i'm not talking about wireless
<ogra> there was a massive breakage with a relatively new rtl81XX something chipset of wired NICs that puzzled the whole PCI id matching and made the kernel just explde on boot
<quirky-mo> sorry its aetheros again for wired, and yes the Madwifi runs the wired
<Tamagotono> I am wanting to install this on my Nokia N800.  Can anyone point me in the right direction for how to do this please?
<cxo> how does it work? do you have access to the hard drive/flash bootloader?
<samphippen> can i install ubuntu mobile on eeepc?
<cxo> yes
<samphippen> when?
<cxo> it will also run on a Pentium 
<cxo> when?
<cxo> what do you mean when?
<samphippen> when will i be able to install it on eeepc
<cxo> how should i know, whenever you have free time?
<cxo> you can install it whenever you want
<cxo> How do i shutdown MID?
<cxo> i see no shutdown button
<persia> cxo: There are two ways I use: first is Ctrl-Alt-Delete & power-cycle at BIOS, the second is `shutdown -h now` from the Terminal.
#ubuntu-mobile 2008-06-29
<persia> Note that I've never voluntarily shut down any of my actual handhelds, rather preferring to hibernate, so I'm not convinced that the lack of an easy interface is a bug.
<cxo> yes i agree
<cxo> i'm using it like a PC OS, so i wanted a shutdown
<persia> cxo: You might try playing with the function of the power button.  It might be somewhere in /etc/acpi, but I've not looked at those subsystems in a couple years, and understand that they may have changed.
<cxo> yeah acpi should work
<persia> It's not GUI, but as long as you're dealing with a normally-off machine, shutdown is probably a better response than sleep.
<dragonball> Can I install ubuntu mid on samsung q1?  
<dragonball> what software development packages are included on it?
<dragonball> ubuntu mid supports mcCaslin platform but what about menlow?
<virtualroadside> anyone know if moblin-media has a scrollbar, or if its just me?
<nerdboy> is there a way for ubuntu to login automaticly when a proper usb flash drive is inserted?
<persia> nerdboy: Yes.  YIf you had asked in #ubuntu, someone would have told you to investigate libpam-usb, but asking here you won't get much support.
* persia changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to: Ubuntu MID released! http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/mobile/releases/hardy/ | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded
<nerdboy> thanks, i did ask there, lol, they told me to try a script that runs after being mounted
<nerdboy> libpam-usb is right on the money, google has let me down again
<persia> nerdboy: They did?  Odd.  The other comes up from aptitude search usb, and libpam is the authentication layer.  My apologies that you received the wrong answer there.
<nerdboy> lol, i am use to it. i actually ALWAYS find better answers somewhere else than #ubuntu. this channel is for help with basic questions. i picked this room to ask the question becasue i figured since there is no live-cd and you have to manually instaqll packages for -mobile there would be more knoledgeable people here and less chatter, more chance of my question being answered
<nerdboy> :)
<mitcheloc> hello, does anyone known if ubuntu mobile will work on a nokia n810?
<cxo> what processor does it have?
<mitcheloc> sorry, read the fq, and it says it may be ported someday if a developer takes it up
<mitcheloc> cxo: i think ARM
<cxo> its not hard really to port it
<cxo> the linux kernel will already boot on an ARM
<cxo> its just a matter of recompiling the rootfs (all the applications) for ARM
<mitcheloc> cxo: i'm not familiar with programming on a linux platform, do you compile that a linux pc first or on the device itself?
<cxo> you can "cross" compile it on any standard linux pc
<mitcheloc> cxo: how would i get the image installed onto the device?
<mitcheloc> i know on a q1 you can plugin something like an external cd-rom drive
<mitcheloc> i don't think i can do that with the n810
<cxo> apparently the n800 is running linux just fine
<cxo> http://www.handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/SupportedHandheldSummary
<cxo> google around for how to boot the kernel on your phone
<mitcheloc> cxo: you mean internet device, the n810 is not a phone.. though they have attempted to brand it as an internet-phone.. heh
<cxo> you will need some sort of flashing utility
<cxo> here you go http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/d3.php
<cxo> damn man, learn to use google
<cxo> now you're all set
<mitcheloc> cxo: okay, i have a micro sd card, and an sd reader/writer on my laptop
<mitcheloc> cxo: lol, it's not about learning how to use google, it's about learning the terms i need for this stuff. i think you've given me enough to get a good start going now, thank you
<mitcheloc> ah yeah, i have that flasher tool instalelled
<mitcheloc> cxo: that SupportedHandheldSummary table, shows all devices with grades next to them, except by the time you get to the Nokia N800 it has just a "Yes"
<mitcheloc> what do you think that means?
<cxo> not sure, the headings are at the top
<mitcheloc> kk, i'll juust start testing trial and error now :)
<lool> cxo: Actually i wouldn't recommend cross building a whole distro
<lool> Building natively is slower but much more reliable and painless, especially thanks to the Debian armel port
<mitcheloc> lool: So I would load some generic linux kernel onto the n810 and then build ubuntu mobile there?
<lool> For instance, yes
<lool> Well I'd start by creating a Debian armel chroot and building Ubuntu and ubuntu-mobile there
<lool> mitcheloc: Note: vanilla kernels wont support the closed source wifi of the N8x0
<mitcheloc> lool: okay, i'll investigate this, i think if i can't get a better OS on the N810, i'll end up ebaying it though
 * lool finds the OS on the N8x0 pretty good
<mitcheloc> lool: i guess you can say the OS is feature packed
<mitcheloc> lool: but the apps available for it and the interface is missing a lot of refinement
<mitcheloc> for example, the camera doesn't point at your head unless you tilt the device
<mitcheloc> which creates an issue trying to look at the screen
<lool> Hmm I found the camera decently pointing, but I don't use it much with camera
<lool> Concerning the UI, you should try Canola
<lool> Otherwise, you can basically build most Debian packages in scratchbox with moderate efforts
<lool> There are plenty of third party ports
<mitcheloc> lool: it looks like i need to do a lot of research, heh
<mitcheloc> lool: i mostly exist in the windows world, so i pick up linux slower then most
<lool> Ah; the above suggestions might turn out harder than intended then
<lool> You should be able to search maemo.org for extra software for the N810 though
<mitcheloc> maybe i will dual boot my laptop with ubuntu
<mitcheloc> that should help me have more linux-style tools available
<cxo> lool, much more reliable and painless? that's utter nonsense
<cxo> a clean toolchain and build environment will produce the same binaries 10 times out of 10
<mitcheloc> cxo: so do you use a virtual machine, or your running OS or like a third
<cxo> sorry i dont understand the question
<cxo> when i cross compile you mean?
<lool> cxo: I mean reliability in terms of how many packages will actually build
<cxo> lool, that doesnt make sense, could you give an example?
<lool> cxo: I mean you'll find that almost all Debian packages build natively for armel but don't cross build
<lool> Some packages can't currently be cross built at all
<cxo> oh deb pkgs, i dont know how well those will cross compile, it all depends on how well the package uses autoconf/automake and how well the control file was written
<lool> Yes; and many upstream programs don't cross build at all either
<cxo> yes, but all the popular ones do
<lool> For instance when building a C tool which needs to run during the build
<lool> Well some popular ones fail :)
<cxo> example?
<lool> dbus, orbit2
<cxo> i've got those cross compiling on about 4 different archs
<cxo> mips, sparc, ppc and arm
<cxo> i work for a company that does mainly that, "cross compiling"
<lool> Nice, so you disable the policy and binding tools?
<mitcheloc> cxo: i was referring to this: "a clean toolchain and build environment ", asking how you maintain that environment
<lool> cxo: Interesting; do you have some pointers on your company/results?
<cxo> we have our own build system that takes care of such, and any stupid unportable scripts or tools that the build uses it patched out
<cxo> mitcheloc, its not hard, create a user solely for the purpose, build a cross compiler, setup your environment variables and your off
<cxo> ^you're
<cxo> lool, sorry we are not open source, but there is talk about making the build system open source soon
<lool> cxo: I don't mind web pages on a proprietary company
<lool> cxo: What's the company name and business?  IOW, who gives you money?  :)
<lool> (just curious, we had some discussions on cross-compiling recenlty)
<lool> I still wouldn't recommend too much cross-building for official packages; it can break subtly
<lool> Not longer than some days ago, I was seeing virtualbox' configure calling uname -m to guess the target
<cxo> there are arm distros already out there
<lool> (with no override)
<lool> And sure enough the Debian packaging was patching that to use dpkg --print-architecture, sigh
<lool> So it seems many upstream get this wrong still   :-/
<lool> But xcompiling is a huge win for repeated builds of software targetted at embedded for sure!
<mitcheloc> lool/cxo: i'm gonna step out of the room right now, i need to understand a bunch of things first before ya'll overwhelm me :)
<mitcheloc> thank you for your help :)
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-06-23
<thinkle79> The recent kernel upgrade to 2.6.28-13 broke my poulsbo drivers from the ubuntu-mobile ppa (I'm on a dell-mini-12). If I run from 2.6.28-13, I have to run in vesa mode with low res. I can boot from the previous kernel (2.6.28-11) but then my broadcom wireless drivers don't load for some reason. Any ideas how to get out of this situation?
<StevenK> You can use psb-kernel-source to compile the psb kernel module for -13 until I get around to fixing it
<thinkle79> Ok -- I just tried that and got an error about not being able to find create_linux_pci_lists.sh
<thinkle79> Or rather "Can't open ./create_linux_pci_lists.sh" was the error.
<StevenK> Jaunty or Intrepid?
<thinkle79> jaunty
<StevenK> I'll look at that, that's odd
<thinkle79> I found a posting online of someone saying to install psb-kernel-source so it looks like it worked for them (http://mok0.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/ubuntu-on-the-dell-mini-10-2/)
<StevenK> Indeed
<StevenK> Ah ha
<StevenK> I don't copy it in
<thinkle79> Eureka?
<StevenK> I dunno yet
<thinkle79> Gotcha. Let me know if there's something I can patch/test from my end.
<StevenK> I'm preparing a new upload to the PPA. It will also more than likely -13 to build itself
<thinkle79> great!
<StevenK> thinkle79: Sorry, got distracted by the thing on my desk that collects dust and occasionally makes noise
<thinkle79> No problem.
<StevenK> thinkle79: New psb-kernel-source source package uploaded to the PPA.
<thinkle79> Now I'm stuck with a different error, but perhaps this is just an error trying to get the broken package removed -- "Loading new psb-kernel-source-4.40 DKMS... Error! Could not find module source directory."
<StevenK> Looking at the build log, you should be able to use psb-modules, it built against -13
<thinkle79> Ok -- I'll give that a try.
<thinkle79> Alright, well I'm off to reboot and test it out. Thanks for releasing the fix.
<StevenK> No problem
<thinkle79> StevenK: The new psb-modules worked like a charm. Thanks again!
<StevenK> thinkle79: No problem!
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-06-24
<juliux> hi
<juliux> ogra__: i found your bugreport related to touchscreen problems
<juliux> ogra__: do you know if there is a solution for jaunty? i am sitting at a eee top;)
<ogra> no, there is none for jaunty
<ogra> we will be working on integrating as many IDs into the usbtouchscreen driver with karmic 
<ogra> i doubt thats backportable
<ogra> (since it would require a backported kernel)
<lool> 'Oh come on it takes 5 seconds to file a backport request'  :-P
<ogra> for the kernel, ehehe
<ogra> have fun discussing that with the kernel team :P
<lool> No, see I would just create a touchscreen-backports PPA  :)
<ogra> and backport a kernel ?
 * ogra wouldnt want to maintain that
<amitk> ogra: I don't recall seeing many reports on that bug that actually use the usbtouchscreen driver. People seemed all over the place about _any_ touch screen they had.
<ogra> amitk, did you check all the lshal outputs ? 
<ogra> 90% of them are usb devices
<ogra> usbtouchscreen needs to start handling the,
<ogra> *them
<ogra> the bug is that they *dont* use it yet ... and upstream decided to ignore all usb touchscreens that dont 
<amitk> ogra: I just skimmed over them admittedly. But there were several that used a different controller or driver.
<ogra> right, they need to be added to usbtouchscreen
<ogra> upstream xorg expects touchscreens that are usb to be handled by the usbtouchscreen kernel driver
<amitk> do you have the bug number handy?
<ogra> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/317094
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 317094 in xf86-input-evtouch "evtouch meta bug to collect lshal info" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<amitk> thanks
<nicola> Hi, what is the best ubuntu for Acer Aspire AO751H?
<nicola> atom z520  
<ogra> 9.04 ? :)
<nicola> I've just tried but I've some problem with poulsbo
<nicola> with this repo: deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/ppa/ubuntu jaunty main
<nicola> sudo apt-get install xserver-xorg-video-psb
<nicola> (EE) PSB: Failed to load module "Xpsb" (module does not exist, 0)
<nicola> any idea?
<nicola> I've just upgraded everything
<user_345> hi
<user345fgh> hi
<user345fgh> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+bug/387127         still trying to solve this problem, any ideas?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 387127 in ubuntu-mobile "poulsbo video not working (fit-pc2/intrepid)" [Undecided,New]
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-06-25
<user345fgh> bbl
<user345fgh> re
<user345fgh> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+bug/387127         still trying to solve this problem, any ideas?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 387127 in ubuntu-mobile "poulsbo video not working (fit-pc2/intrepid)" [Undecided,New]
<lool> user345fgh: You'd want to check you're using the proper drm module (psb-drm) and what dmesg/log/Xorg.log say
<lool> user345fgh: StevenK is probably the best person to help you though
<lool> NCommander: Poke
<lool> NCommander: I'd like to drop the Babbage and Marvell status items from the /Roadmap page
<NCommander> lool, *explode*
<NCommander> lool, sure, no issue
<lool> NCommander: (We have specs for these now)
<NCommander> lool, works for me
<lool> NCommander: I'd also like to replace the list of mobile team specs (implemented and not implemented) with a link to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~canonical-mobile
<lool> NCommander: Does that work for you?
<NCommander> lool, hmmmmm ....
<lool> NCommander: I'm dropping the Mono bug from the /Roadmap as it's only affecting Jaunty now
<NCommander> lool, that's fine.
<user345fgh> lool, could you pleae take a look at the bugreport, i believe ive posted all the infos?
<user345fgh> lool, can you see if its the tight drm module?
<lool> user345fgh: You want to attach lsmod info and your dpkg -l linux-\* package versions to the bug
<user345fgh> lool: ok, have to win a css match in a few minutes...but will attach it right after that
<plars> user345fgh: for future reference, I think you can probably just do 'apport-collect -p xserver-xorg-video-psb <bug number>' if the bug already exists, or to start out the right way, just 'ubuntu-bug xserver-xorg-video-psb' (speaking strictly for bugs related to that driver)
<NCommander> plars, that's not going to work for psb
<NCommander> plars, its not in archive, its in a PPA
<user345fgh> ubuntu-bug xserver-xorg-video-psb     what would that do? im currently in xp
<user345fgh> ok
<NCommander> user345fgh, it reports a bug on a package
<user345fgh> ok
<plars> NCommander: but it looks like there's an apport hook for it
<NCommander> plars, there is?
<NCommander> hrm
<NCommander> I'll be darned, there is
<plars> NCommander: x11-common: /usr/share/apport/package-hooks/source_xserver-xorg-video-psb.py
<NCommander> Suprising
<NCommander> I would think ubuntu-bug would puke on non-existant packages
<plars> NCommander: that could be, I haven't tried actually using it, but if it works then it's easier than going through everything by hand to collect everything
<user345fgh> in theory it will gather all the relevant information and create a new bug?
<plars> user345fgh: yes
<plars> user345fgh: the apport-collect command I gave you will do pretty much the same thing, but for an existing bug number
<user345fgh> just realised that i have to reinstall 8.10, played around with other distros :(
<lool> Yeah, Roadmap is much shorter now   \o/
<plars> NCommander: speaking of bugs... I have the strawman wiki page for the bug workflow stuff for discussion today if we have time, you want the link, or should I just add it to the agenda page?
<NCommander> plars, put it on the agenda
<NCommander> woo, this is going to be a fun meeting
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-06-26
<lool> ogra: Perhaps you could implement the "search bugs a team is subscribed to" feature?
<ogra> well, i havent looked at the source yet, but i probably could :)
 * ogra is still wading through his bugmail
<lool> NCommander: What's wrong with closing 385325?  do we still have a crash?
<lool> NCommander: I think it was fine to close it; we have been using the same bug for a bunch of different problems which is bad (tm); at some point when we uncover new bugs we should open new bugs instead of reopening the SIGSEGV bug; what do you think?
<lool> Folks, any specs which I should be reviewing?
<lool> ogra: I assigned you to the banshee bug; could you trim the top description and attach the mostly useless gdb stack trace as a text file?
<lool> GrueMaster: Could you help me understand why https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/mobile-unr-karmic-applications is targetted at alpha 3?
<ogra> lool, thats not a gdb trace :) its simply what banshee spits out
<ogra> but yes, i'll take care
<GrueMaster> lool: Because that's what the boss assigned.
<NCommander> lool, because the upload that happened was the upload to put  a new NSPR, it doesn't have the ARM fix in it
<julius> hi
<julius> finally got time to expand one bug report, but i cant find apport-collect in intrepid. in jaunty its located in apport.  i will use ubuntu-bug instead
<lool> NCommander: Ah, then you were correct; my bad
<user345fgh> hi
<user345fgh> just tried "ubuntu-bug poulsbo-driver-2d"  but it presented me with an empty bugreport in firefox?
<user345fgh> isnt it supposed to attach files or fill in informations?
<lool> user345fgh: That will file a NEW bug, and it should tell you it will attach the info later on
<lool> user345fgh: If you want to add info to an existing bug, checkout apport-collect
<user345fgh> i know that it will create a new bug
<user345fgh> apport-collect is not available in intrepid according to the ubuntu package search (i searched for the file, it was found in jaunty though)
<lool> Ah that could be, sorry about that
<user345fgh> no problem
<user345fgh> ubuntu-bug just did something, then opened firfox....no notice that it will attach infos later on
<user345fgh> so its ok that i create an empty bugreport?
<user345fgh> or better, that i just create the bug ubuntu-bug opend for me?
<lool> user345fgh: You can create it and then dup it with the bug you want to send info to, yes
<user345fgh> duÃ¼?
<user345fgh> dup?
<lool> user345fgh: Mark the new bug as a duplicate of the real bug
<lool> Or I'll do that if you give me the bug numbers
<user345fgh> something came up, bbl
#ubuntu-mobile 2009-06-27
<metalfan_> hi
<metalfan_> "ubuntu-bug poulsbo-driver-2d"     does choose "psb-meta" as the package name when sending a but report.  but the website says:....does not exist in Ubuntu.    also "poulsbo-driver-2d" does not work.
<metalfan_> ive choosen "i dont know"
<metalfan_> lool, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/392943              doesnt look like ubuntu-bug added a lot of information....
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 392943 in ubuntu "poulsbo video driver not working" [Undecided,New]
<metalfan_> StevenK, hi
<metalfan_> StevenK, just ran "ubuntu-bug poulsbo-driver-2d" https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/392943             to me it doesnt look like the tool added much information?
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 392943 in ubuntu "poulsbo video driver not working (dup-of: 330906)" [Undecided,New]
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 330906 in xserver-xorg-video-psb "MASTER: GMA-500 lacks driver for 8.10 (poulsbo works only on 8.04)" [Wishlist,Triaged]
