#ubuntu-devel 2005-04-25
<Kamion> phew, debian-installer merge done
<fabbione> jbailey: are you back ?
* lamont contemplates banging a head against the wall a few times... NMU'ing someones package (albeit into experimental), with an orig.tar.gz that does not match the upstream tarball is, well, annoying
<Kamion> modutils?
<lamont> yep.
<Kamion> that's rather incompetent
<lamont> there's a 2.4.27.orig.tar.gz in experimental
<lamont> so, I'll be uploading 2.4.27.0-1
<mxpxpod> how would I install a package's config file (in /etc) over what I have there?
<lamont> and nuking all his changes
<Kamion> yay for jfs
<Kamion> are none of his changes worthwhile? surely not
<Amaranth> hmm
<lamont> Kamion: don't care at this immediate instant...  I'll walk the bug tree and see what I can incorporate after I make my upload-statement
<Amaranth> i'm using breezy and i have a new package :)
<Kamion> in fairness, you hadn't uploaded since 2003 :)
<lamont> Kamion: yeah, but it's always good to check with the maintainer before uploading a new .orig.tar.gz...
<lamont> esp if it doesn't match what's on the upstream distro site...
<lamont> OTOH, he didn't add an epoch.. :-)(
<mkde> Amaranth, breezy is open for testing?
<lamont> mkde: it'll take uploads, and sometime soon, it'll actually build binaries from them.
<mkde> k
<Amaranth> oh, that's why linux-kernel-headers went through
<Amaranth> it's just source
<tseng> erm
<Kamion> Amaranth: no
<lamont> Amaranth: no. it went through because I got out and pushed
<mkde> Amaranth, is your menu editor in universe?
<tseng> any package has to do an unpack + build
<Amaranth> mkde: no
<mkde> Amaranth, what is it like?
<lamont> Amaranth: we're bootstrapping gcc-4.0 into the toolchain for breezy before we actually start building everything.
<mkde> did you get anywhere with it?
<Amaranth> mkde: Yeah, I got to bugs in PyXDG (fixed in CVS) and gnome-menus.
<lamont> and lkh, doxygen, and gcc-4.0 are the first 3 packages in that process (gcc-4.0 is building now)
<mkde> Amaranth, i might download it, would you recommend?
<lamont> doko: you going to upload a new gcc-4.0 to fix amd64?
<fabbione> lamont: i guess i could build doxygen at least :)
<lamont> fabbione: sure
<Amaranth> mkde: It's better than doing it by hand.
* Kamion contemplates base-config merge, decides he isn't that bored
<mkde> Amaranth, are you going to carry on working on it or was it just temporary?
<mkde> hi fgx :)
<Amaranth> mkde: I'm trying to figured out a workaround to these bugs, then I'll have a new version out.
<mkde> cool
<Amaranth> mkde: More than likely it'll be a breezy-only app though.
<fabbione> lamont: doxygen_1.4.2-1 ?
<lamont> fabbione: on the bright side, my mirror script isn't being burdened by binaries as it fetches breezy source...
<lamont> fabbione: yes
<mkde> Amaranth, :/
<mkde> Amaranth, cool work tho
<mkde> glad you're carrying it on
<fabbione> lamont: ehhee.. i had to add another 10G to the ubuntu mirror
<lamont> I really need to bite the bullet and finish setting up the new server, which has a 73GB partition just for the mirror
<fgx> ciao mkde 
<Kamion> /dev/system/mirrors   53670396  50566048   2013832  97% /mirror
<fabbione> Kamion: eheh
<fabbione> Kamion: but you do a selective mirror, don't you?
<fabbione> i have around 100GB allocated for mirrors
* lamont currently has 2 18GB partitiions, at 72 and 78%
<fabbione> and they are all almost full
<fabbione> Alloc PE / Size       112903 / 441.03 GB
<fabbione> Free  PE / Size       44464 / 173.69 GB
<fabbione> and i managed to free 170GB recently
<doko>  lamont: works for me
<fabbione> from a lot of old craft
<lamont> doko: I really love this reproducible stuff in gcc, you know...
<lamont> giving back, just for giggles
<doko> hmm, do we have build options to disabled parallel builds? I usually build on single processor machines ...
<gasman> Hi all I am trying to repackage my kernel and I was wondering if anyone had a seconed to give me some help
<lamont> doko: nothing is done to prevent parallel builds
<lamont> doko: 2-way opteron 2465
<lamont> 246, even
<gasman> or if there is a more appropriate irc channel to ask in please tell me
<mkde> gasman, did you try #ubuntu?
<doko> let me know, if it fails again, then I have to make another upload with parallel make disabled
<gasman> mkde: no...i guess I'll try there
* fabbione goes and crashes
<fabbione> night
<lamont> Kamion: truth be told, I'm half tempted to orphan modutils (after making sure that module-init-tools doesn't use anything in it...)
<lamont> dpkg-divert --list | grep module-init-tools | wc -l
<lamont> 29
<lamont> now that's a man after my heart...
<Kamion> fabbione: that's Debian sarge+sid x i386+powerpc, Ubuntu warty+hoary x amd64+i386+powerpc
<zyga> night everyone
<Kamion> gasman: it's usually more effective to ask your question straight out; people tend to be reluctant to say they'll help when they don't know what they're getting themselves into, sometimes :)
* lamont contemplates whether or not he wants modutils to deliver a bunch of translated man pages or not...
<Kamion> I think it's generally right for packages to deliver their own man page translations; the collected sets tend to get out of date easily
<lamont> Kamion: yeah
<mkde> would anyone have the patience to explain to a fool how a subversion commit is done?
<gasman> Kamion: ok.  well I am running dpkg-buildpackage I get the following error:  debian/rules:29: *** first argument to`word' function must be greater than."
<mkde> <-- aforementioned fool
<Kamion> mdke: 'svn ci'
<Kamion> or 'svn commit'
<mkde> Kamion, that just returns me to the prompt with no message
<mkde> :/
<Kamion> mkde: that implies you have no committable changes; try 'svn status'
<mkde> ?      gnome/images/fr
<mkde> ?      gnome/images/de
<mkde> ?      gnome/images/it
<mkde> i added some files too but they don't show up
<Kamion> mkde: if you have new files, you need to 'svn add' them explicitly
<mkde> doh
<mkde> directories too huh?
<Kamion> mkde: yes
<mkde> Kamion, thanks very much, i appreciate it a lot
<Kamion> gasman: my instinct would be that debian/changelog is wrong; but I need to go to bed now, sorry
<mkde> Kamion, good night, and thanks, is working now
<gasman> Kamion: thanks
<gasman> Kamion: you were right, it was my changelog.  I had a bad version num
<doko> lamont: how's gcc-4.0 running?
<jdub> fabbione: pong
<lamont> doko: on the order of 2 more hours before we expect success
<jdub> elmo: ping?
<doko> lamont: so it's already building the runtime libs?
<lamont> doko: uh... let me go check...
<lamont> doko: ppc is at: Running /build/buildd/gcc-4.0-4.0ds11/src/gcc/testsuite/gcc.c-torture/execute/execute.exp ...
<lamont> the others are in acats tests
<doko> even amd64?
<elmo> jdub: ?
<jdub> elmo: howdy
<jdub> elmo: is katie sending out sync emails for universe as well as main?
<elmo> yeah
<jdub> aha
<jdub> intended, or...?
<elmo> uh, not sure.  there was discussions about what the right thing to do was, but I'm not sure what the conclusion (if any) was
<jdub> in mataro, the conclusion was main only
<jdub> for syncs
<elmo> hmm, ok
<jdub> ooh, yikes, breezy mirror action
<mdz> I think the consensus was they should be sent to separate lists, to keep main manageable
<mdz> but it's going to be insane for the initial run regardless
<jdub> mdz: even universe uploads?
<kiko> hey hey hey
<kiko> is this where those ubuntu hotties hang out
<elmo> hahahahahahaha
* mdke points
<mdz> jdub: MOTU certainly want to know about universe syncs
<elmo> oh, damn, that was just a clone
<mdz> kiko: this is now the "bitch about bugzilla" channel
<mdz> seb128: this is your chance :-)\
<kiko> do it
<jdub> hrm.. breezy-universe-changes or universe-changes...?
<mdz> breezy-changes-universe
<kiko> mdz, okay, can you give me an example bug that is friggin slow?
<mdz> breezy-changes-all?
<jdub> elmo: is this annoying to change, btw?
<kiko> mdz, seb128, jdub: I'm proposing we turn on UNCONFIRMED for our bugzilla to avoid overflowing maintainers.
<elmo> jdub: not particularly
<kiko> what do you think?
<mdz> kiko: I turned that on, btw
<kiko> ah
<kiko> let's see the graphs
<jdub> yeah, i like the unconfirmed workflow
<mdz> kiko: it seems to be a bit better now; maybe the server was more loaded earlier
<kiko> seems friggin slow to me
<mdz> kiko: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1940 takes ~5 seconds now
<seb128> I thought we were not going to fix bugzilla ? :)
<mdz> still slow, but not as horrifically slow as before
<mdz> seb128: ssshh, don't tell malone
<elmo> mdz: if we have b-c-a, would main go there too?
<kiko> uhhh
<mdz> elmo: that's what I was thinking, but I dunno, it's not urgent
<kiko> how many components are in that little box?
<mdz> elmo: we should probably talk about it in sydney or something
<seb128> kiko: what about UNCONFIRMED ?
<mdz> kiko: a few thousand
<kiko> seb128, well, we now have enabled voting; essentially, bugs filed by people without editbugs go by default to the UNCONFIRMED state, and you need to vote (I believe mdz used two votes) or have somebody with editbugs confirm it.
<mdz> kiko: 4637
<mdz> (yes, 2 votes)
<jdub> i think breezy-changes-universe would be saner than -all
<mdz> four thousand six hundred thirty-seven components (for the ubuntu product)
<kiko> jesus
<mdz> elmo: is there a simple way to filter by component, based on the header/body of the mail?
<seb128> kiko: what the interest for that ? A maintainer confirm or not the bug ... why do we need 2 votes ?
<mdz> there's this ~1M javascript monstrosity which is part of every page
<mdz> though in theory it should be cached
<mdz> seb128: it is a way to allow us to ignore more bugs ;-)
<elmo> mdz: not atm, no, can trivially add an X-Katie-Component: <foo> header tho
<kiko> mdz, cached? how?
<kiko> at least search.cgi is 500K
<kiko> 20:43:31 (15.38 KB/s) - `query.cgi?format=advanced' saved [450,877] 
<kiko> sorry
<kiko> query.cgi
<mdz> kiko: <script type="text/javascript" language="JavaScript" src="data/compcache.js"></script>
<seb128> mdz: UNCONFIRMED is, right :) But what about the votes ?
<seb128> that moves it to NEW ?
<mdz> seb128: right
<seb128> but who has the bug assigned to him ?
<mdz> no one, until it is confirmed
<elmo> mdz: oh, well, alternatively, you could procmail on the "installed to pool/$component/" lines
<mdz> kiko: the advanced search page is basically doomed
<seb128> and when it's confirmed ? :)
<jdub> "I really don't get the whole Ubuntu thing. It seems trendy and overrated, and I dislike having to tweak it in order to get what I consider a recognizable Linux filesystem, complete with su, etc."
<jdub> heh
<mdz> kiko: but at least on enter_bug and show_bug it's loading the monster component list via a separate URL
<mako> ok. someone is emailing info because they had a failed submission to the hardware database
<seb128> mdz: hu ? no one ... who gets the bug ?
<mako> and they're attaching the mail
<mdz> mako: that's awesome
<mako> what should i do with it
<mdz> seb128: the idea is that a bug has to wait until someone confirms it before we look at it
<seb128> mdz: let's say somebody bugs on gnome-panel, the bug is assigned to me ?
<kiko> mdz, so in query.cgi I could help you there with a small patch that required a product to be selected for a component to be displayed.
<kiko> that would dramatically reduce page load size
<seb128> mdz: I would be able to keep a look on the GNOME bugs without beeing flooded by the whole bugs
<seb128> which is current situation if I look only on bugs assigned to me :)
<mdz> kiko: I spend the vast majority of my time on show_bug (I read bug mail and click through), followed by buglist
<kiko> okay.
<kiko> mdz, well, just as a reminder, we could do that if improving the query,cgi perf is necessary
<mdz> ok
<mdz> seb128: our hope is that we can recruit people from the community (like the 100+ people in here *COUGH*) to help us confirm bugs
<mdz> seb128: so they can look at the list of unconfirmed bugs and help us determine if they are true bugs or not
<seb128> mdz: can we make some sections, list, whatever ?
<seb128> like gnome-bugs, installer-bugs, kde-bugs, etc
<mdz> seb128: we can query based on status
<kiko> mdz, buglist should be pretty fast. is there an issue there?
<jdub> gnome has some great bugzilla pages and reports for this stuff
<seb128> so people can subscribe to a list of interest
<mdz> kiko: ~6 seconds for a search on 'foo' here, so somewhat slower than show_bug
<seb128> yeah, I want a weekly summary :p
<seb128> like gnome :)
<mdz> kiko: (including the query)
<jdub> elijah will probably be happy to help out
<kiko> mdz, what do you mean? including query.cgi?
<mdz> kiko: I mean including the time to run the query (as opposed to returning to an existing list)
<mdz> I'm not sure how that functionality works, but it seems to have different performance characteristics
<kiko> mdz, returning to the list just loads bugs from your cookie.
<mdz> kiko: right, so I mean the case where it isn't loading bugs from the cookie, and is instead running a query on the database to find the bugs
<kiko> I see.
<kiko> that's pretty bad.
<kiko> on bmo (300K bugs) we get less than that usually
<kiko> mdz, so compcache.js indeed is not getting cached.
<kiko> let's see why.
<mdz> how are we killing ourselves with ~3% of the bugs?
<mdz> that would do it
<mdz> sladen was looking at making that less broken
<mdz> but everyone keeps telling me that this 'malone' thing is the future ;-)
<kiko> mdz, I can't even convince the sab to include dependencies in malone, dude 
<mdz> I can live without dependencies, no problem
* kiko can't
<mdz> I cannot live with spending 10 minutes out of each hour waiting for bugzilla pages to load
<kiko> Last-Modified: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:51:32 GMT
<kiko> so explain to me
<kiko> why is the server returning _that_ for the .js file?
<mdz> riddle me this, Batman
<kiko> it's just plain apache giving out a file, isn't it?
<mdz> I don't have permission to look at the file
<kiko> or is there some sort of bizarre occurence here?
<mdz> thom: ?
<kiko> who can?
<mdz> thom
<mdz> elmo
<mdz> and justdave ;-)
* kiko waits
<kiko> mdz, just fixing _that_ problem would avoid show bug lagging more than 1s.
<elmo> hmm?
<mdz> elmo: can you give me privileges on the bugzilla instances on macquarie?
<elmo> what kind of privs?
<mdz> the best kind
<kiko> mdz, next up, if query speed is hitting you and it's because of intense use, we can study using the shadow database.
<mdz> read/write
<kiko> mdz will take nothing but the best
<mdz> kiko: load on that box is usually fairly reasonable, though I think ddaa abuses it sometimes
<kiko> okay
<kiko> tuning mysql a bit can help as well
<mdz> it has these random 1.4G python interpreter instances running on it
<kiko> but I'd need to be able to see the use profile and why queries are being slow (if they are)
<elmo> maybe we should relocate bugzilla
* kiko listens to washing machine
<infinity> Is the comonent javascript updated at regular intervals to make sure it's a complete list?
<infinity> If so, one should update to a temp file, diff with the old one, and if they're the same, leave the old one intact.
<kiko> infinity, I believe the current generation system is smart enough for that, but IMBW
<kiko> mdz, what's mtime there?
<infinity> OTOH, this could just be apache feeding you false modified headers due to SSL (mis)configuration.
<infinity> Also, good morning.
<jbailey> infinity: I was looking for you the other day for something, what was it...
<kiko> could it, infinity?
<jbailey> infinity: Oh, right.  Linker rework in glibc-2.3.5 - I think claims to fix some refcounting issues with dlopens.
* jdub upgrades to breezy
<lamont> jdub: that might mean something if we were building binaries...
<infinity> jbailey : Probably does.  Actually, after examining CVS, I /think/ it should be fixed in 2.3.4 as well.  I think gotom's patch for Debian was just incomplete, but I've as yet not found enough "personal time" to fix it.
<jdub> Downloaded 197 MiB in 1720s at 116.74 kiB/s
<jdub> ^ i just synced my mirror
<jbailey> lamont: He just wants to be able to tell everyone how safe it is to be on bleeding edge breezy. =)
<jdub> oh
<jdub> just seed shifts
<lamont> jdub: right now, you should get linux-kernel-headers, doxygen, and (sometime soon) gcc-4.0
<jbailey> infinity: I sent gotom my 2.3.5 .orig.tar.gz so that when they do the update, we'll be using the same one.
<jdub> oh man
<jdub> python-uno
<jdub> fear
<lamont> jdub: and lots of new source
<jdub> luckily i don't have a source mirror yet ;)
<jbailey> mdz: With that Java list, a number of the items are things that go away when we do JavaPackaging.  Do you want a report back, or do you just want them fixed when uploads are flowing again?
<jdub> which is why i need daniels
<infinity> jbailey : Well, I'm still hoping to find some time to get a proper patch into Sarge (where it's really needed, for upgrade reasons), but I've been flat out with Ubuntu, Real Life, and not much else.
<jbailey> ls
<mako> jdub: i just got an email you'll get a kick out of
<jbailey> infinity: Right.  I haven't looked at the linker changes from the point of view of backporting them.
<lamont> mako: pants?
<jdub> i am not compatible with kicking this morning
* jdub is downloading the veronica mars episode ubuntu was mentioned in ;)
<mako> lamont: no, some guy is like "you guys should talk to this guy i heard of named bruce perens. there is this project called userlinux. maybe you can invite him into the fold. or port their metapckages"
<mdz> jbailey: uploads are flowing
<mdz> at least, some did
<mdz> flow
<mako> it's like.. "the invitation message was on SLASHDOT"
<jdub> mako: ask him what mars is like this time of year
<mako> well, he's on the right track.. he's just like a solid month behind the rest of us
<infinity> jbailey : Backporting the current code isn't worth the headache, since he completely rewrote the whole shebang not that long ago.  But if you go back to where gotom committed his patch, drepper cleaned it up and fixed several missing use cases in the next few revisions.  That stuff's not included in the Debian patch.
<jdub> mako: ha ha
<infinity> jbailey : It touched a few more files than gotom did, but it still looks reasonably harmless.  I just haven't made the time to backport it.
<jdub> mako: "dear ubuntu man, meet bruce perens, who once led debian. love, random."
<mako> jdub: "i think i sort of recognize teh name"
<jbailey> Wasn't Random Love one of the Caldera folks?
<lamont> jbailey: once we have gcc-4.0 and gcc-defaults there, anything else we should build before we open the flood gates?
<tseng> Mandreraivatu
<jbailey> lamont: doko and I are just trying to sort that out.  I have a glibc here, but it's configured to build ppc64, requires gcc-3.4 in the buildd that can also do ppc64.
<lamont> jbailey: if it's something ppc specific, I can hold off on that architecture...
<jbailey> 'kay.  My earlier builds showed no testsuite failures on i386, and only the expected one on amd64, so I think glibc's as good as I'm gonna get it.   I've been live testing it on ppc for a week.
<jbailey> doko: Before you pass out, what do you want to do for ppc?  Can we drop gcc-3.4 into the buildd for now so we can get it going?
<lamont> libs/glibc_2.3.2.ds1-20ubuntu13: Installed [required:] 
<lamont> that's what we currently have
<elmo> woah
<elmo> jbailey: can't we just back out the ppc64 stuff?
<elmo> if we're going to go gcc-4, we should do it consistently
<jbailey> elmo: Yup.  I just need to know what to do.  I'm ready to go with it, but it's easy enough to back out.
<lamont> elmo: that was a 'not build anything on ppc yet', not a 'let ppc run without it'
<jbailey> elmo: glibc requires gcc-3.4 to build right now.
<jbailey> welll 3-x.
<jbailey> 3.x
<elmo> boggle
<jbailey> I expect the stable branch will get the gcc-4 fixes in the next couple of months - Roland mentioned it as a target for 2.3.6.
<elmo> lamont: ok
<lamont> elmo: I'm really not _that_ crazy...
<lamont> -rw-r--r--  1 root lamont 225499136 2005-04-13 18:27 hoary-baselive-i386.iso
* lamont takes a bow, even though it would be better if it were 30MB lighter
<lamont> or 40MB..
<lamont> of course, there's the whole usefulness question of a livecd that has ubuntu-base, kernel, and nothing else.
<crimsun> firewall.
<lamont> crimsun: yeah.  actually, it's the 'so you want to build your own cut-down livecd' starting point
<crimsun> yeah I figured that's where you were going with it :)
<lamont> actually, we'll just publish the .cloop file (on cdimage), along side the full livecd.
<jbailey> lamont: Ubuntu base on its own probably boots like stink and has enough to recover a system on it.
<lamont> so it's a cut/paste of the 525MB file into a 90MB file
<jbailey> lamont: Perfect fit in the toolkit of an IT consultant.
<lamont> jbailey: oh yeah.  (hence the 40MB to fat comment - doesn't fit on a miniCD)
<lamont> i386, amd64 done building gcc-4.0, ppc in install target, appears
<jbailey> The build log that doko /msg'd me showed that it was trying to executre a 64bit program, and it can't do that without running on a 64bit kernel.
<lamont> jbailey: which?
<elmo> argh
<elmo> if you guys want me to put a 64-bit kernel on those buildds, I need to have it, like, right freakin now
<jbailey> elmo: We don't have one.  glibc doens't execute a 64 bit program in its build at all.
<jbailey> I don't know that part of the gcc build.
<lamont> amusingly?, gcc-4.0 built fine on the second try on amd64.
* lamont finds that most annoying
<mdz> people are still responding to the EXTREMELY URGENT nvidia testing request from three weeks ago
<infinity> Perhaps they missed the release announcement? :)
<elmo> WT_F_?
<elmo> gcc-4.0-locales optional        universe/devel
<elmo> doko: dude?  that's like, so an empty package?
<ogra> mako, forward hardware database mails to hwdb@ubuntu.com
<kro> On the boot cdrom, you can boot with linux, server, or server-expert.  How is that implemented "underneath"?  Are they different kernels?
<kro> whoops, meant to ask in #ubuntu
<mike_douglas> kro: they are just meta-packages including different software
* kro tries to figure out how to ask his next question
<kro> I'm trying to use the netboot images, and I want to do a server only instal similar to what is done when you type server at the boot prompt.
<kro> I have things working nicely, but it's doing a full desktop install.
<mike_douglas> kro: can't you put "server" on the kernel line?
<kro> I'm gonna try that.
<kro> is it merely just a flag?
<kro> I guess i'll find out.  :)
<kro> I'll put it into my mknbi image and find out
<Nigelenki> are the goals for breezy being lain out yet?
<infinity> elmo : Are we doing a mass sync for universe too?
<elmo> infinity: already done
<elmo> it's just not building yet
<infinity> elmo : Oh.  I don't see new source for autogen in pool/universe
<elmo> autogen's in main?
<elmo>    autogen |  1:5.6.6-2 |        breezy | source
<infinity> That would make me a retard, then.  Excellent. :)
<infinity> (It must have at one point been in universe, since I was looking at build logs downloading from universe.. Oh well)
<cartel_> guys i dont understand why there is RestrictedFormats
<cartel_> it makes no sense...
<Burgundavia> I don't understand Cartel
<cartel_> because redhat did it?
<cartel_> Burgundavia: why lock out formats from the distribution?
<cartel_> thats stupid..
<Burgundavia> for legal reasons Ubuntu/Canonical cannot distribute those formats
<cartel_> Burgundavia: for patent reasons?
<Burgundavia> yes
<cartel_> why disallow use of mp3 but include samba in mainline distro then?
<cartel_> why include openoffice which violates microsoft patents?
<Burgundavia> samba is not under active patent threat
<Burgundavia> mp3 is
<cartel_> why use linux, which violates 200 patents in the kernel?
<cartel_> mp3 is not for free software codecs
<Burgundavia> because the patents have not been proven in court
<Burgundavia> mp3 has been
<cartel_> thats fraunhofer's statement
<cartel_> divx is not under active litigation against xvid
<cartel_> nor has the patent been proven
<Burgundavia> it also to do with the degree of risk
<Burgundavia> samba would have some powerful corp backers
<Burgundavia> and the EU would look very interested if something happened
<Burgundavia> the audio/video formats are not the same
<cartel_> samba is protected because it is based in australia
<Burgundavia> not really
<cartel_> they are exactly the same man..
<cartel_> yes really, australian law allows reverse engineering, but anyway
<Burgundavia> dvdcss is protected for use in norway
<Burgundavia> but not in the us
<Burgundavia> thus canonical cannot distribute them
<cartel_> but canonical is not american
<Burgundavia> still can be sued by American companies
<cartel_> only if extradited
<cartel_> extradition under civil suit is practically impossible
<cartel_> thats like prosecuting someone for thoughtcrime
<Burgundavia> cartel_, I don't know the whole specifics, but know that canonical distributes as much as it can
<schweeb> ...
<Burgundavia> and if it doesn't it probably has very good reason, and lawyers telling them that
<schweeb> CIFS is a documented protocol
<cartel_> i just dont get it, why act so much on high horse over some patents and disregard others?
<Burgundavia> cartel_, see my last comment
<mako> ogra: cool, thanks!
<Nigelenki> https://addons.update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefox&version=1.0&os=Linux&id=436  I should recommend this for breezy, but htf do you package extensions for firefox
<ogra> mako, wondering why they send to info@ :) the errormessage clearly states hwdb@, but anyway...every dataset counts ;)
<cartel_> i should make a delta that adds support for all the RestrictedFormats to hoary
<cartel_> i hate intellectual property law...
<Burgundavia> cartel_, as do most of us
<cartel_> so crackpot...
<schweeb> marillat already has most of the RestrictedFormats...
<schweeb> or at least the important ones
<Burgundavia> elmo, ping
<cartel_> it makes me sick to stomach.. i hate capitalism
<cartel_> i hope the open source movement will lead to the eventual enlightenment of humankind and dawn of the second industrial revolution
<elmo> Burgundavia: ?
<schweeb> mako: has the CC meet been rescheduled yet?  what mail list does that stuff go out to?
<cjb> cartel_: The open source movement doesn't oppose capitalism, I'm afraid.
<Nigelenki> the OSS community supports capitalism o.o
<Nigelenki> open source software makes it easier for your business to make money :P
<Burgundavia> what most in the FLOSS community are opposed to are software patents, which kill innovation
<infinity> cartel_ : State-sponsored monopolies (patent, copyright, etc) have little to do with capitalism, and probably conflict with it.  However, that, and the previous discussion, are pretty far off-topic here.
<mdz> lamont: how goes the building?
<zenwhen> So are there already breezy repos?
<Burgundavia> zenwhen, yep
<zenwhen> wheres the info?
<Nigelenki> is there a wikipage for breezy
<Nigelenki> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/HoaryGoals  <-- Like that one
<lamont> mdz: gcc-4.0 uploaded everywhere, jbailey is about to upload glibc, and then I need to review/upload gcc-defaults for doko, and then it's just a question of "what next"
<infinity> Nigelenki : Release goals are likely to be hashed out in detail at the UDU conference at the end of the month.
<lamont> "let 'er rip" seems to be the popular idea...
<mdz> lamont: that'd be my pick
<lamont> meanwhile, overhauling the internal scripts, etc.
<lamont> added a new cloop to day, btw.
<Nigelenki> infinity:  can we see hierharchial goals this time around?
<lamont> we now have 'ubuntu', 'kubuntu', and 'base'
<lamont> base is boring, but small.
<Nigelenki> infinity:  there's an UbuntuHardened, MOTU, etc, who else?  There's a bunch of ubuntu teams right?
<lamont> we're just going to have the cloop there for people who want to start from a minimum-livecd cloop
<Nigelenki> Rather than wind up with one lug of a wikipage with a huge hunk of primary/secondary/opportunity goals, why not a set of goals for each team
<Nigelenki> and a set of generic goals not related immediately to a given team
<Nigelenki> just, to be pretty and stuff, not for any real reason :P
<schweeb> I dunno, I like seeing a big list all spelled out
* infinity -> lunch.
<schweeb> I'm also the type of person that always downloads the single page HTML HOWTO from TLDP rather than the annoying multi-page one
<Nigelenki> schweeb:  same here
<Nigelenki> but I'm only interested in a few things
<schweeb> it's all fine and dandy if they're well sorted, but multiple pages is... bleh
<Nigelenki> ok well one page and well sorting?  :P
<schweeb> sounds good :)
<jbailey> Objet: 	glibc_2.3.5-0ubuntu1_source.changes ACCEPTED
<lamont> gcc-defaults uploaded 
<jbailey> lamont: What did we finally settle on for gcc-defaults?
<cartel_> so anyone know lara legassick?
<elmo> cartel_: err, why?
<cartel_> just interested
<cartel_> is it the same lara as madaboutwine
<lamont> jbailey: gcc_4.0, g++_3.3
<cartel_> anyone got xen packages for hoary?
<schweeb> cartel_: I plan on working on some eventually
<schweeb> and fabbione's got some kernels in the works
<cartel_> schweeb: so you dont have any yet?
<schweeb> no
<schweeb> doogie's packages should work though
<schweeb> with only a few modifications
<schweeb> think they're in experimental
<cartel_> schweeb: where is the config file for the linux-image?
<mako> schweeb: i'm pushing for two meetings.. one to approve the people we went over last night and the one next tuesday to take care of reamining businessa
<mako> schweeb: we could do the approvals in the next day or two
<cartel_> they are on p.d.o, i commited a ton of bugfixing for them
<schweeb> I dunno, I haven't messed with the kernel much yet
<schweeb> I had some preliminary packages built, but between Hoary release and getting a new job, I've been a bit distracted
<cartel_> cool, i should be able to adapt doogie's packages to hoary and build a xen aware linux-image
<cartel_> ill talk to you guys later
<cartel_> off to do some hacking :)
<schweeb> mako: awesome
<dilinger> heh, awesome names
<dilinger> usplat is simple and started from initrd. usplashd is complex, started /etc/inittab. communication is done by called usquirt which passes messages through a Unix Domain Socket mounted on a tmpfs filesystem on /etc/usplash/.control
<elmo> jbailey: glibc doesn't have anything NEW now, right?
<jbailey> elmo: Right.
<jbailey> The only add's were ppc64 bits, and those are disabled now.
<elmo> cool, thanks
<mdz> lamont: but the cloops aren't accessible from outside of the LAN, right?
<lamont> mdz: kamion is going to publish base.cloop on cdimage.u.c
<lamont> rather than base.iso
<mdz> lamont: I see the new gcc-defaults is in; does that mean the floodgates can open?
<lamont> mdz: waiting for glibc to build, and beating chroots into existance everywhere.  Then we get flood gates
<lamont> not that glibc should matter, but it's a pain when it's in transition (locales build-depending packages wind up in non-automatic dep-wait, and it annoys me)
<lamont> of course, the other fun part has been discovering that breezy.buildd has to change for gcc-4.0 as well. :-(
* lamont notes that, for once, ppc is first to be ready
<mdz> lamont: and that means changing debootstrap...which means building it...
<lamont> mdz: nah - buildd-config drops one in place if it's not there...
<lamont> and it's that copy
<mdz> ah, ok
<lamont> debootstrap needs complete breezy love
* mdz is waiting for a new debootstrap build to un-break ubuntu-meta updates
<mdz> Kamion gave debootstrap breezy love
<locomorto> Is it possible to upgrade to grumpy yet?
<jdub> locomorto: you can start using breezy, but not grumpy
<mdz> which is likely what you meant anyway
<zul> is it time for the meeting yet?
<jdub> locomorto: breezy is the new name for 5.10, grumpy will be something else... spectacular :)
<locomorto> grumpy == breezy atm
<locomorto> really
<locomorto> i take it back then
<lamont> zul: what meeting?
<zul> CC
<robitaille> zul,  I don't think it was ever officially rescheduled to today
<zul> ah ok
<zul> later folks
<locomorto> cya
<fabbione> morning
<locomorto> hey
<fabbione> jdub: ?
<fabbione> lamont: is it possible to build gcc-4 without l-k-h ?
<lamont> fabbione: dunno - didn't lokk
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> i guess i will have to wait jbailey 
<jdub> fabbione: yo
<locomorto> anyone here compiled FF?
<fabbione> jdub: sabdfl gave green light for GFS and i already have patches that build on ubuntu.
<schweeb> robitaille: no, it hasn't been rescheduled yet, I guess
<lamont> fabbione: fwiw, l-k-h, doxygen, gcc-4.0, gcc-defaults (and then I'm also doing glibc)
<fabbione> jdub: you must take care of checking the user land once the sync with debian is finished
<fabbione> lamont: what about ccache?
<lamont> fabbione: is installed, haven't pre-built it though
<lamont> (there is also a new gcc-opt)
<fabbione> lamont: last upload from thom adds the gcc-4 trampolines :)
<jdub> fabbione: GFS userland?
<fabbione> jdub: yes. gfs-tools and all the cluster tools from RH
<jdub> fabbione: hrm
<fabbione> jdub: gfs as in global file system
<lamont> fabbione: ah, in my chroots, we just invoke the compiler as '/usr/bin/ccache /usr/bin/gcc-4.0.gcc-opt ...'
<jdub> fabbione: i can test them and stuff, but i'm not capable of maintaining them
<lamont> fabbione: so I don't care.. :-)
<fabbione> lamont: ah ok
<lamont> fabbione: that is, we divert gcc-4.0 :-)
<lamont> and 3.3 and 3.4
<fabbione> jdub: well it is enough that you check if they are alligned with the kernel and ping MOTU
<fabbione> jdub: to do the packaging if required
<fabbione> jdub: but i need somebody to take care of it
<lamont> fabbione: but I want sparc32 support... :-(
<jdub> fabbione: ok, keep in mind that i'm at lca and udu, etc. :)
<lamont> or a sparc64. :-)
<jdub> fabbione: very keen to work with it during udu though
<jdub> fabbione: (probably won't have binaries before then anyway ;)
<fabbione> lamont: we will need to readd the the sparc32 kernels
<fabbione> jdub: as i said we don't need them right away
<femv> has anyone ever seen these :  pcmcia_socket0: unable to apply power   ??
<lamont> fabbione: is that all?
<fabbione> lamont: yes. we only miss the kernel for sparc32 because i don't have one to test
<jdub> fabbione: should i bring my 220R to UDU? :)
<jdub> fabbione: and my ultra 5?
<fabbione> jdub: is there anyway i can get it to run something and get access to it?
<fabbione> jdub: we defenitely need another buildd
<lamont> we need an 'I feel lucky' option for language and keyboard... :-)
<jdub> fabbione: at UDU for sure; running as another permanent buildd? most likely
<fabbione> nah i don't need it at UDU
<jdub> fabbione: i should be able to run it here
<fabbione> i need another buildd :)
<jdub> though it's fucking noisy
<jdub> i'm not sure where i'd run it
<jdub> hrm
<jdub> but i can get it hosted somewhere
<fabbione> jdub: want to donate it to me?
<fabbione> i can host it really
<lamont> get sparc32 happy, and I"ll throw an SS20 and an SS5 at the problem. :-)
<lamont> they might actually keep up with the network bandwidth... :)
<fabbione> lamont: ehehe no way.. i killed sparc32 because it's a hell to maintain with 2.6
<jdub> fabbione: it's a long-term loaner, probably best for it to stay in the country ;)
<fabbione> lamont: you can try to install Debian to start with
<infinity> femv : I used to get it with my prism54 card with some versions of the driver.  It wouldn't reinit the card properly when it was removed and reinserted.
<lamont> fabbione: yeah, but I don't want to. :-)
<fabbione> lamont: well just to bootstrap the kernel
<schweeb> save a SPARC, remove Solaris :)
<fabbione> lamont: once the kernel is there you should be able to run ubuntu without any problem
<infinity> femv : That was a year or so ago though, so I'm not likely to be much more helpful than that.
<femv> infinity, i dont have a pcmcia inserted... .im getting it at startup
<lamont> mdz: 9 minutes +/- (well, +...) to floodgates
<femv> infinity, i though that to disable pcmcia checkup at startup may be a solution but i dont know how to do that
<infinity> Whoa.  thom's in town.  And, like... wandering around aimlessly.  Neat.
<lamont> jdub: do we have a quicken-like anything in ubuntu?  universe?
<lamont> jdub: that is, do we like gnucash, or is it depricated/dead?
<infinity> femv : Oh, you're seeing it with no card inserted?
<infinity> femv : Does it have any other adverse effects, or just an error message you're not too keen on?
<jdub> lamont: we don't support it, but it's the right thing for the moment
<jdub> lamont: just that it's still built against gnome 1.x insanity
<lamont> jdub: ew.
<lamont> fix that. kthxbye
<jdub> heh
* jdub gives katie full access to DoS breezy-changes subscribers
<lamont> heh
<whiprush> what's this about a sparc buildd? Does someone need some sparc hardware?
<schweeb> lol
<schweeb> me
<schweeb> and fabbione
<locomorto> odd
<locomorto> when i try to compile firefox, it says command not found...
<schweeb> I need it for work and fun, and fabbione needs it for buildds or something
<whiprush> fabbione: what kind of sparcs?
<locomorto> i have build-essential
<lamont> whiprush: something that'll run a 64-bit kernel
<whiprush> sun blade 2000 do the trick?
<fabbione> whiprush: whatever it can run debian/ubuntu on it
<jdub> woo, gcc4
<lamont> jdub: yep
<jdub> whiprush: mmm, yummy :)
<ajmitch> jdub: how many messages on breezy-changes? a few thousand?
<fabbione> whiprush: pretty much yes
<lamont> reminds me.. couple minutes, and some dist-upgrades, and we should be golden
<jdub> ajmitch: so, it's currently getting *all* syncs, including universe :-)
<jdub> ajmitch: we're up to the Cs
<ajmitch> excellent :)
<schweeb> whiprush: man, you've had that bastard marked for removal, haven't yoyu
<whiprush> I just decommissioned my sunblade 2k. I'll ask about making a donation tomorrow.
<ajmitch> has the buildd been turned on then?
<whiprush> I got 2 E450's too .. those huge cubes if you want them
<ajmitch> so how do we handle merging changes that we did to hoary into the breezy import?
<infinity> ajmitch : Manually, as usual?
<fabbione> ajmitch: manually
<ajmitch> ah, lots of fun then
<fabbione> yeps
<womble> Wouldn't pretty much all of the changes in Universe have gone to the upstream packager?
<ajmitch> depends on the MOTU who did the change - we haven't organised an effort to submit then together
<ajmitch> things like the python2.4 transition don't necessarily go upstream as-is, since we change the default to 2.4
<womble> But most of the changes would be suitable for Debian/upstream -- seems like doing that would save you a lot of manual hassle when the sync comes.
<|QuaD-> when is the sync coming?
<ajmitch> now
<schweeb> womble: this goes back to what we were discussing the other day... there isn't necessarily a complete system to see the changes we've made for the upstream maintainer... but it's being worked on
<|QuaD-> ajmitch: how long will it take?
<ajmitch> womble: at the rate we had to fix universe packages for the release, bugfiling slipped down the list a bit :)
<ajmitch> |QuaD-: no idea
<ajmitch> I'm just watching the mail flood in
<womble> ajmitch: Heh.
<|QuaD-> ajmitch: mail flood in?
<ajmitch> might as well use my gmail account for something :)
<ajmitch> |QuaD-: all the sync uploads are announced on the breezy changes list
<|QuaD-> ajmitch: ohh, i have it on digest, haven't checked my email yet though
<lamont> Apr 14 05:43:29 buildd: Starting build (dist=breezy) of:
<lamont> Apr 14 05:43:29 buildd: bash_3.0-14 debianutils_2.13.2 sed_4.1.4-2 acl_2.2.29-1 attr_2.4.21-1
<lamont> mdz: gates open
<ajmitch> oh great
<ajmitch> how long would it take to build the whole archive?
<fabbione> that means that sparc is already 3 days behind :P
<schweeb> fabbione: hahaha
<fabbione> schweeb: that's what it takes to build gcc-4 + glibc :)
<fabbione> given that it will build
<schweeb> so are you gonna make SPARC a targeted platform for breezy, or is it gonna be "unofficial" still
<fabbione> sparc will not be official until there is a userbase
<fabbione> and there cannot be a real userbas until i am the only one building packages, because it will most of the time out of sync..
<fabbione> isn't that cool?
<schweeb> s/i am the only one/i am not the only one/ ?
<whiprush> hey so when the boss approves, you want me to ship the box to you or ship it someplace else? Only way to get debian on the 2k is a tftp thing last I checked.
<schweeb> whiprush: we could host a SPARC buildd there
<schweeb> maybe that's what kop and I can do this weekend
<whiprush> yeah. what do you think fabbione?
<doko> morning all
<lamont> morning doko
<lamont> flood gates just opened
<schweeb> seeing as I'm gonna admin Solaris, I may as well get as familiar with the SPARC platform in general
* schweeb weeps
<jdub> lamont: YAY!
<jdub> lamont: next time, maybe like this:
<Lathiat> flood gates?
<jdub> *** THE FLOOD GATES ARE OPEN! ***
<crimsun> something about the version number of libc6 2.3.5 scares me.
<jdub> crimsun: just wait for libc6 6.6
<schweeb> jdub: my buddy's 21st birthday is on 6/6/06
<schweeb> heh
<doko> lamont: thanks, any changes for the proposed gcc-defaults?
<schweeb> jdub: he doesn't expect to live through the night
<Lathiat> schweeb: hah nice
<jdub> schweeb: hey, waking up as a vodka zombie isn't so bad!
<lamont> doko: other than grumbling at you and repackaging it as source-only, no.
<schweeb> heh
<ajmitch> evening mpt
<schweeb> jdub: I'll paypal you $50 USD if you get whiprush belligerantly drunk at UdU... you'll need it!
<schweeb> :)
<doko> lamont: ;)
<jdub> schweeb: dunno man
<jdub> schweeb: whiprush looks pretty stocky from the photos i've seen
<schweeb> really stocky
<schweeb> and he drinks like a fish
<schweeb> and just keeps on drinking
<schweeb> :-/
<jdub> definitely has some russian tractor thrower genes
<|QuaD-> schweeb: you have met me?
<|QuaD-> :)
<schweeb> |QuaD-: not that I know of :)
<mpt> hi ajmitch
<|QuaD-> schweeb: it was a joke, when you were describing your friend, i implied it was me
<schweeb> ah
* schweeb tries to stay on topic
<ajmitch> I wonder how painful a dist-upgrade from sid to breezy will be :)
<crimsun> right now?
<crimsun> I'll tell you in 10 minutes.
<crimsun> (yes, I do this daily)
<schweeb> sounds ugly
<ajmitch> once sid is imported & built
<crimsun> the beauty of debootstrap
<schweeb> crimsun: indeed
<Treenaks> E
<lamont> ajmitch: well, before the merges all get done, it could be quite painful
<ajmitch> lamont: yeah, and it'd be on my main work machine, so I think I'll wait a few weeks
<lamont> since, until the merges happen, changed things in hoary will be older (in breezy) than in sid
<lamont> and note that mixing debian and ubuntu debs is known to be fraught with peril.
<Treenaks> lamont: yes, but we have dholbach!
<ajmitch> heh
* Treenaks watches his mail server graphs
<ajmitch> bbl
* lamont points fabbione at http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/Lists/breezy.all.sparc
<schweeb> Treenaks: yea, but he's on a bit of a holiday :)
<fabbione> lamont: looking at it
<lamont> fabbione: is read-only list (pretty much guaranteed stale) of the state of the port
<lamont> ditto for hppa
<Treenaks> schweeb: then UDU is a good opportunity to fix it ;)
* Treenaks -> bus -> work
<fabbione> lamont: yes.. i am building gcc-4 now :)
<lamont> jbailey: so about those l-k-h errors....
<fabbione> hopefully i can open the gates in a couple of days
<lamont> jbailey: (hppa)
<jbailey> lamont: Shh.  I'm sleeping.
<lamont> first set are in posix_types.h, lines 42-44
<jbailey> lamont: If they're just the long long set, I'll do them tomorrow late morning.
<lamont> woot
<lamont> jbailey: is lkh a build-dep of gcc-4.0?
<jbailey> Nope, of the new glibc.
<lamont> hrm... and we kinda want that before we floodgate...
<fabbione> argh
<fabbione> if i new.. i could have built gcc this night
* lamont sleeps
<fabbione> good night lamont 
<fabbione> thanks for the big help guys
<fabbione> sparc is catching up ...
* fabbione is really happy
<crimsun> :)
<infinity> 'Night, lamont.
<infinity> lamont : You realise the breezy builds will spin hideously out of control and all of it will completely break about 3 minutes after you hit the pillow, right?
<schweeb> excellent, someone added breezy changes to gmane already
<fabbione> infinity: nope...
<Amaranth> breezy buildds are running?
<fabbione> infinity: there are a lot of nice goodies.. like the autokick back :)
<fabbione> Amaranth: yes
<lamont> infinity: nah - it'll take them at least until 5 minutes after I actually am sleeping
<crimsun> Amaranth: for the toolchain, yes
* Amaranth cheers
<Amaranth> good enough :)
<lamont> crimsun: they're wide open
<crimsun> lamont: eeek
<lamont> crimsun: on the 3, that is
<crimsun> gotcha.
* Amaranth subscribes to breezy-changes
<Amaranth> yay, new stuff
<milli> lamont: I've got arla working as an AFS client...  its a bit cleaner implementation than openafs...
<lamont> milli: coolness.
<Amaranth> i was starting to get withdrawn symptoms, not getting my daily 40MB upgrade fix
* fabbione starts importing GFS in the kernel
<lamont> btw, may wander down to snarf the beginnings of breezy..  dunno if I'll get to it before the weekend though
<milli> lamont: which means charon can be flipped to hoary at some reasonable no-too-distant future time
<fabbione> milli: i think i am going to pull AFS from itd HEAD
<fabbione> milli: do you have an upstream url/reference?
<milli> fabbione: not sure what you need for url/reference..
<fabbione> milli: where is AFS upstream?
<milli> fabbione: openafs* is in all debian releases, version 1.2.x, which only work with 2.4 kernels
<milli> fabbione: openafs* in experimental is the 1.3.81 version, which is still not stable, obviously, but has support for 2.6 kernels
<milli> fabbione: Is that enough?
<fabbione> milli: i don't really care what is in debian.. i am talking about AFS upstream...
<fabbione> they have a project page or something?
<milli> fabbione: http://www.openafs.org/
<fabbione> milli: perfect
<fabbione> that's what i wanted
* milli smacks head
* milli needs pain killers
<milli> torkel: Thanks a bunch for the pointer to Arla debs, they work great.
<milli> torkel: I nominate you to become the debian maintainer  ;-)
<milli> fabbione: btw, the only problematic part of the openafs stuff is openafs-client and openafs-modules-source
<milli> fabbione: The other packages, *-dbserver, *-fileserver, etc. have no kernel dependencies, so 1.2.13 versions of those work on 2.6 kernel
<locomorto> jdub, do you anything about what is being done in respect to Synaptic in Breezy?
* Amaranth is burning a hoary install CD before moving to breezy
<Amaranth> in case things go boom :)
<locomorto> lol
<jdub> locomorto: not in anything but handwavy terms. things like this will be discussed in detail at UDU
<fabbione> milli: i am going to take care of the kernel side.. somebody must do userland
<fabbione> milli: i really don
<fabbione> milli: i really don't have time to do both
<fabbione> it's just too much otherwise
<Amaranth> I think something like CnR would be cool, but obviously wouldn't be possible in time for breezy.
<schweeb> CnR?
<Amaranth> Linspire Click and Run
<crimsun> fabbione: I'll be glad to take a look at userspace, since I have to use afs for university
<schweeb> fabbione: you should make a list of stuff like that that's kernel related, that you need userspace packages made for... that's the kidn of stuff I'm usually interested in doing
<fabbione> schweeb, crimsun: that's great
<schweeb> I'll be revisiting that Xen stuff once things get less hectic with the work situation
<Amaranth> ok, cd made
<Amaranth> time for the breakage :)
<locomorto> lol
<locomorto> nothing  much is diffrent so far i believe
<fabbione> atm we need 3 things in userland: http://sources.redhat.com/cluster/ http://www.openafs.org/ and http://aoetools.sourceforge.net/
<Amaranth> locomorto: Just the toolchain recompiled with gcc4.
<fabbione> i know a MOTU is working on the latter one
<fabbione> for the first 2 we need to check if what we have in debian/ubuntu is good enough
<fabbione> the latter needs full packaging (2 tools)
<jdub> Amaranth: it is fairly likely breezy will have something very similar, possibly even supported
<crimsun> fabbione: ok.
<locomorto> oo
<Amaranth> jdub: Written in Python? :)
<fabbione> crimsun: but i want all the MOTU team looking at them
<locomorto> Python pwns
<schweeb> fabbione: rawk, we're gonna be a rocking server distro before long
<crimsun> fabbione: you bet
<fabbione> crimsun: the redhat cluster stuff is made of a lot of packages
<fabbione> crimsun: and i am taking care of the kernel side...
<fabbione> so you should only focus on userland
<fabbione> schweeb: probably :)
<crimsun> fabbione: k. I'll start with afs, since I actually have to use it
<Amaranth> perl: warning: Setting locale failed. <--haha
<Amaranth> I editting /etc/environment to tell it I'm not british and now I get these when I upgrade things. :)
<fabbione> crimsun: i am sure it does not need a repackaging.. checking what is in debian/ubuntu is a very good start
<fabbione> crimsun: remember we can pull in stuff from experimental
<crimsun> fabbione: righto
<fabbione> crimsun: we don't want to fork if we can avoid that
<womble> Amaranth: It's just telling you that everyone should be british.
<infinity> Amaranth : Perhaps you need to generate the locale you set up in /etc/env? (dpkg-reconfigure locales)
<doko> jbailey, Mithrandir: Unpacking replacement linux-kernel-headers ...
<doko> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/linux-kernel-headers_2.6.11.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb (--unpack):
<doko>  trying to overwrite `/usr/include/asm/kdebug.h', which is also in package amd64-libs-dev
<Amaranth> So, does getting gcc4 mean we get all the gcj stuff (eclipse, tomcat, etc) that the RH folks have been bragging about in blogs? :)
<Amaranth> infinity: locales already generated my en_US.UTF-8 locale
<fabbione> doko: i am building gcc-4 on sparc now.. try to be around if something goes banana
<Amaranth> infinity: I changed 'en_US:en_GB:en' to 'en_US:en
<Amaranth> '
<fabbione> doko: you really want it to build :) trust me...
<Amaranth> wtf, why does gcc have an --enable-gtk-cairo flag?
* DonVito makes doko an offer he can't refuse
<jdub> Amaranth: gcj
<jdub> (and surrounding insanity)
<Amaranth> heh
<Amaranth> but gtk doesn't use cairo yet...
<Amaranth> unless things have changed a lot since last time i looked
<doko> fabbione: speed up, I'm away starting tonight 
<fabbione> doko: it's building
<fabbione> doko: it will take its time tho
<Amaranth> when everyone was making such a big deal about it the only thing i saw was gtk depending on cairo to build but not actually using it
<fabbione> doko: are you going to LCA?
<doko> fabbione: it did build on experimental
<fabbione> doko: well than it should build here
<doko> no, joining pitti, seb128, amdu, mvo, ...
<fabbione> doko: uh? for what?
<Amaranth> hmm, are the mailing lists screwed up?
<Amaranth> i never got a confirmation email for breezy-changes
<fabbione> Amaranth: give the server sometime..
<doko> fabbione: hanging around in Sydney, surfing, ...
<fabbione> doko: ah ehehhe
<Amaranth> fabbione: It's been about 20 minutes.
<fabbione> Amaranth: please be patiente
<Amaranth> The server is that overworked?
<fabbione> yes
<fabbione> it is flushing a big queue of messages at the moment
<Amaranth> ah
<fabbione> all the imports from sid
<fabbione> it is at least 12 hours lagged as far as i can see
<fabbione> so sit back and relax
<Amaranth> holy crap
<Amaranth> from sid import * just happened? :)
<Amaranth> mpt's website is toast
<fabbione> hey pitti
<pitti> Good morning, world!
<pitti> Hey fabbione 
<doko> welcome in the 4th GCC age
<pitti> yay doko
* infinity fears gcc-4...
* fabbione forces the kernel to build with gcc-3.3
* fabbione doesn't trust gcc-4 yet for that task
<Amaranth> I thought we already knew the kernel wouldn't build with 4
<fabbione> Amaranth: 2.6.10 doesn't
<fabbione> but we are not working on .10 atm
<Amaranth> 2.6.11 fixes that?
<fabbione> breezy will have at least .12
<fabbione> Amaranth: no .11
<fabbione> i am preparing 12rc2 atm
<fabbione> .11 is pointless when .12 will be out in a few weeks
<Amaranth> .12 might be the last one for awhile, now that linus doesn't scale anymore :)
<crimsun> necessity is the mother of invention.
<Amaranth> git looks interesting, yes
<crimsun> linus will scale whether the world likes it or not
<fabbione> Amaranth: your lack of faith in the force is disturbing
<locomorto> i thought .11 was really buggy?
<Amaranth> locomorto: The Ubuntu version is
<fabbione> locomorto: as well
<fabbione> Amaranth: dude.. .11 in ubuntu is a bk snapshot
<Amaranth> and?
<crimsun> yeah, it's not even .11
<fabbione> and no.. it's not buggy
<fabbione> it's not even supported
<Amaranth> doesn't mean it isn't buggy :P
<fabbione> Amaranth: you are making 2 wrong statements
<torkel> milli: sounds good that arla debs works, there are some more things that have to be done before I can send it to the debian maintainer though
<fabbione> Amaranth: first it's not .11
<fabbione> Amaranth: second it's not buggy only in Ubuntu
<Amaranth> fabbione: The package is called .11
<fabbione> Amaranth: the version is not
<fabbione> .11-0.2 <-
<fabbione> doesn't ring a bell?
<locomorto> will breezy still need for us to set the output plugin to eSound? I could never get alsa to work
<fabbione> and the changelog states that clearly
<crimsun> Amaranth: it is _not_ 2.6.11. Since fabbione is the kernel lead, I think he knows. :)
<Amaranth> Oh, the only problem I had with it was inotify
<Amaranth> crimsun, fabbione: I know it isn't .11
<fabbione> inotify will be fixed in .12rc2
<torkel> milli: for instance, it is time to drop kerberos 4 support
<fabbione> or better
<Amaranth> Most of your users call it .11 though.
<milli> torkel: big nod
<fabbione> it is already fixed..
<fabbione> i only need to upload it :)
<milli> torkel: I noticed 0.39 was released too, at least in CVS
* Amaranth can't wait
<fabbione> cache hit                         900940
<fabbione> cache miss                        147254
<milli> torkel: It does work fine though with my krb5 KDC.  I'm using aklog from the openafs stuff.
<torkel> milli: and as for OpenAFS, skip the 1.2.x version.
<fabbione> not too bad :)
<torkel> milli: I know I haven't had time to look at 0.39 yet (and 0.40 will probably be out before I have time to do it ;-)
<milli> torkel: The two things I miss are (1) no dynamic mounting and (2) can't push around files larger than cache size can grow to
<milli> torkel: I.e., files can't be larger than the partition I set aside for Arla's cache
<torkel> milli: 2 will probably be hard to fix in arla, as it caches the whole files, or rather from the begining of the files and as long as you have read
<milli> torkel: but it doesn't freeze up the machine if there's a network hiccup either, which is better
<torkel> milli: what do you mean by 1?
<milli> torkel: If I have just one cell in CellServDB, e.g., athena.mit.edu
<milli> torkel: that's all I'll see mounted under /afs
<torkel> milli: true, and thats why I prefer arla on my laptop, and openafs on my workstation
<milli> torkel: I can't say "cd /afs/cs.cmu.edu/" and it will auto-mount that.
<milli> I like that feature in openafs
<torkel> milli: in theory it should be able to use dns for that
<milli> torkel: but arla-cli supports it...
<milli> torkel: right, that's what arla-cli is doing for sure
<milli> torkel: I can live with out (2), just have to rethink how I use it
<milli> torkel: Any issues with the cache being on a reiser file system?  (I assume not... since it's working... )
<torkel> milli: well, it is not recommended. Both the arla and openafs guys recommends ext2
* milli raises an eyebrow
<milli> torkel: okay..
<pitti> ah, DoS attack to my u-changes mailbox...
<jdub> :-)
<torkel> there have been issues with the cache on reiserfs, but I'm not sure if it was a problem in arla/openafs or reiserfs
<Amaranth> heh, i signed up after the sid merge, i'm not going to get all those mails
<milli> torkel: The openafs kernel module stores stuff in the inodes, so it must be ext2 or ext3 for it to even work
<milli> torkel: arla doesn't appear to do anything fancy like that
<torkel> milli: the biggest issue I have with arla right now is that not all vos subcommands are implemented. You have to use openafs to do some things
<jdub> yay, we're up to i
<Amaranth> heh, i isn't important
<Amaranth> tell me when it gets past lib
<pitti> fabbione: DILDO ALARM!
<jdub> J TIME!
<fabbione> pitti: i love you too
<pitti> jdub: I really don't envy the buildds at this time...
<pitti> infinity: hey, new PHP4 security bugs...
<jdub> pitti: those big silver ipods finally have something to do ;)
* jdub sets breezy-changes to nomail for a bit :|
<jdub> next couple of weeks are going to be bad enoguh!
<lifeless> pitti: is that the bably jesus butt plug ?
<fabbione> jdub: please don't stop the mailing list
<jdub> fabbione: nomail for me, silly mans ;)
<fabbione> jdub: tsk :)
<Burgundavia> jdub, what arch's is breezy going to be released on?
<fabbione> Burgundavia: same as hoary
<fabbione> there might be more unsupported arches
<Burgundavia> fabbione, ok, thanks
<fabbione> but that's another story
<fabbione> i think we are targetting to have ia64/sparc64/hppa
<infinity> pitti : Really?.. Lucky me.
<fabbione> but they won't be supported
<infinity> pitti : Forward 'em my way, and I'll roll new packages for warty and hoary.
<pitti> infinity: not sure, maybe they already happen to be fixed in hoary since you backported much
<pitti> infinity: they are fixed in .11
<infinity> pitti : Well, forward them anyway, then, and I'll see. :)
<pitti> infinity: I check that
<infinity> pitti : What we have in the archive is basically 4.3.11RC1... That should contain most of the fixes in question, but I'd have to check each one to be sure.
<infinity> pitti : Also, firefox 0.9.3 isn't vulnerable to CAN-2005-0150, cause it doesn't actually have that feature. :)
<pitti> neat
<jdub> Burgundavia: we're also planning to support a version of ubuntu for the ipod
<pitti> infinity: I mark it as nonvuln for warty then
<Burgundavia> jdub, umm, ok
<Burgundavia> jdub, I am wondering for documentation stuff
<Treenaks> jdub: "Ubuntu - The Other Universal OS" ?
<jdub> oh, that'll be fine, ipod only has a few buttons and a scrollwheel - won't require much in the way of docs
<Burgundavia> jdub, will installing on it be hard?
<jdub> no, though navigating the ubuntu with the scroll wheel might require some dexterity
<jdub> s/ubuntu/installer
<jdub> Burgundavia: (i am pulling your leg.)
<Burgundavia> jdub, I was about to photoshop something up
<Burgundavia> jdub, In fact, I think I will do that
<Burgundavia> jdub, for my talk
<Amaranth> it's funny, debian is talking about dropping archs to get releases out faster and ubuntu is adding more
<jsgotangco> hah good one
<jdub> "Apple gives you iPod, Ubuntu gives you iBoob."
<Amaranth> whee, new stuff
<Amaranth> python already got recompiled with gcc4?
<Burgundavia> jdub, is there a reason I have not got a confirmation email from my sub to breezy-changes?
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: lag
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: I was told it was about 12 hours behind because of the sid import. :)
<jdub> lists seems to be quite slow atm
* jdub is wildly tempted to postfixise that box
<Amaranth> isn't elmo in charge of that stuff?
<Amaranth> he might end up wildly tempted to hurt you :)
<fabbione> jdub: ehhe well i am still getting emails from yesterday syn
<fabbione> jdub: it's at libapache2
<fabbione> that means it will take a long while to flush
<fabbione> with date 13-04-2005 16:56
<Seveas> yeah, me too
<dholbach> morning
<fabbione> hey dholbach 
<Seveas> morning
<jdub> Amaranth: not the lists box
<dholbach> i should have another emailadress
<dholbach> breezy-changes over dial-up would have killed me :-)
<Seveas> :o)
<pitti> Hi dholbach 
<Seveas> so for only 1200 or so messages :)
<dholbach> hey pitti
<dholbach> Seveas: 1200? we're not even remotely there yet :-)
<Amaranth> yay, package breakage
<Amaranth> trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/python2.4/ConfigParser.py', which is also in package python2.4-minimal
<Amaranth> from python2.4
<Treenaks> \o/
<Amaranth> it says python2.4 is an upgraded package and a new package added by the install
<Amaranth> which makes no sense unless it's two mutually exclusive packages with the same name
<dholbach> you're talking about breezy, right?
<Amaranth> yep
<dholbach> upgrading is kind of useless atm
<dholbach> the buildds didnt even build 20% of the packages yet
<dholbach> so things are bound to break
* pitti phears the next dist-upgrade
* dholbach won't upgrade until UDU
<Amaranth> heh, i live in the bleeding edge
<dholbach> breaking edge rather
<Amaranth> but this python thing isn't becuse a package isn't built
<Amaranth> err, because
<Amaranth> does ubuntu split python in a different way?
<Amaranth> than debian, i mean
<infinity> Yes.
<Amaranth> That'd explain it.
<Amaranth> I'm guessing debian's python2.4 isn't just a meta-package
<dholbach> have a nice day
<zyga_> hello
<Amaranth> hi
<zyga_> anybody with current firefox on amd64?
<pitti> Hi zyga_ 
<zyga_> pitti: hi
<zyga_> firefox crashes the split second after I visit this site http://www.zeropaid.com/news/articles/auto/04132005e.php
<zyga_> (link from ./ article)
<zyga_> I've got no java AFAIR and of course no flash
<zyga_> so no third party plugins are to blame
<zyga_> can anyone confirm?
<zyga_> I'm currently trying to run it via gdb...
<lifeless> jdub: ping
<zyga_> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
<zyga_> 0x0000002a99da436d in NSGetModule () from /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/components/libgklayout.so
<zyga_> and to hell it goes...
<zyga_> can anyone advice what do do next?
<infinity> zyga_ : Is it just the content of the page that breaks it (ie: if you wget the URL, and view it via file:///foo.html, does it still crash?)
<infinity> zyga_ : If not, trying to narrow down which linked content breaks it would be nice.
<infinity> zyga_ : As well as a full backtrace (bt in gdb after that SEGV)
<infinity> zyga_ : And all that info can happily land in a bug report. :)
<zyga_> infinity: bt is useless -- firefox is built without debug information
<zyga_> infinity: only the gnome/gtk compatibility plugin has any symbols
<infinity> zyga_ : Some people are half decent at tracing nearly meaningless backtraces. ;)
<infinity> zyga_ : You're welcome to rebuild without stripping, though, and see if you can still reproduce it.
<zyga_> infinity: yes it's the content of that page that's causing this but I'm not sure how to narrow it down (apart from hand hacking of course)
<zyga_> infinity: never built firefox, is it any more difficult than ./configure && make ?
<infinity> zyga_ : Well, you'd want to rebuild the Debian package, to make sure ou're getting a similar binary.
<zyga_> infinity: I've mirrored the offending site - I'll reconfirm that I can crash it locally
<Amaranth> it's failing to load an XPCOM module?
<zyga_> infinity: it does not break when run from disk :/
<infinity> zyga_ : Okay, so it's something linked from the page, not the page itself.
<infinity> zyga_ : If you don't mind wasting time and diskspace, you can rebuild it with something like:
<zyga_> infinity: I've did wget -p but it probably didn't fetch any javascript generated adverts
<zyga_> mvo: hey
<mvo> hey zyga_ 
<zyga_> infinity: I sure don't mind -- just tell me how
<mvo> morning all
<infinity> apt-get install build-essential ; apt-get build-dep mozilla-firefox ; DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=nostrip apt-get -b source mozilla-firefox
<zyga_> infinity: BTW: I'm currently set to breezy, is that okay?
<Pizbit> And you're wondering why stuff is breaking?
<infinity> Oh, I lied.
<zyga_> Pizbit: I've not downloaded anything yet ;] 
<infinity> zyga_ : Make that DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=debug
<infinity> zyga_ : And I'd recommend using hoary for this. :)
<zyga_> infinity: should I switch back to hoary for now?
<zyga_> ok
<infinity> zyga_ : (Assuming you haven't upgraded anything yet... If you have, then lord only knows what broke)
<infinity> zyga_ : Check you glibc version before we go any further. :)
<zyga_> infinity: libc6, 2.3.2.ds1-20ubuntu13
<infinity> Okay, good. :)
<infinity> Then switch back to hoary, apt-get update, then do the above.
<zyga_> infinity: doing now
<infinity> jbailey : ping.
* infinity boggles as the libc6 2.3.5 preinst bomb out about needing a 2.6 kernel on am64... Except he's installing on powerpc.
<Treenaks> infinity: cool
<Treenaks> if(!i386) {
<zyga> dpkg-buildpackage: host architecture is amd64
<zyga>  debian/rules clean
<zyga> dh_testdir
<zyga> dh_testroot
<zyga> dh_testroot: You must run this as root (or use fakeroot).
<zyga> should I really build this as root?
<Treenaks> zyga: well, use fakeroot :)
<zyga> fakeroot ... ?
<zyga> ... = stuff above
<Treenaks> zyga: DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=debug fakeroot apt-get -b source mozilla-firefox
<GheRivero> res
<zyga> ok
<Treenaks> you might need to apt-get install fakeroot
<zyga> okay building firefox now :-)
<infinity> Oh, I see.  Hackish cut-n-waste on jbailey's part... linuxthreads support was dropped on ppc as well.
* infinity finds that mildly irritating.
<Treenaks> linuxthreads support dropped?
<Treenaks> in favor of what?
<infinity> That means I need to upgrade the kernel on my PowerPC devel box to get my breezy chroot to work.
<infinity> Treenaks : NPTL only... IOW, Linux 2.6 and up.
<Treenaks> nice
<zyga> hmm
<zyga> I'm experiencing very strange things here
<zyga> ps aux ... hangs
<crimsun> something in D state? your kernel oopsed?
<zyga> trying to kill it from another shell hangs too
<zyga> crimsun: nothing is in D state (nothing printed at least)
<zyga> checking syslog
<crimsun> dmesg will probably have spew
<zyga> nothing...
<zyga> I think I should reboot now :P
<mvo> zyga: did it happen during the firefox build?
<zyga> mvo: yes
<zyga> mvo: bad ram?
<zyga> I've had hangs on this box in the past
<zyga> but testing the memory for two days didn't show anything
<mvo> might be, have you run the memtesten in the grub menu before?
<mvo> oh, ok
<zyga> brb
<zyga> back
<zyga> http://www.suxx.pl/firefox-crash/firefox-crash-full-backtrace.txt
<zyga> (full as in whole, not as in with symbols)
<Treenaks> not with symbols?
<zyga> still building
<doko> amu, d3vic3: I cannot reproduce the python2.4 upgrade bug, that you are seeing: <amu> Unpacking replacement python2.4 ...
<doko> <amu> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/python2.4_2.4.1-1_powerpc.deb (--unpack):
<doko> <amu>  trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/python2.4/ConfigParser.py', which is also in package python2.4-minimal
<doko>  python2.4-minimal has: Replaces: python2.4 (<< 2.4dfsg-1ubuntu1)
<crimsun> but sid has 2.4.1-1
<doko> I see, but that's not a warty upgrade ...
<crimsun> ah
<doko> yes, that's a downgrade of the python version ...
* zyga notices gopher related stuff in firefox
<zyga> does anyone still use that?
<torkel> zyga: it must have been over ten years ago since anybody used gopher :-)
<pitti> Hi seb128 
<seb128> hey hey pitti :)
<fabbione> hey seb128 
<Kamion> gopher still has fringe popularity
<seb128> Hi fabbione :)
<pitti> elmo: any idea why helena does not work any more for at least warty-security?
<Kamion> it went through a revival a while back
<fabbione> Kamion: morning 
* fabbione starts the cluster dance
<Kamion> morning
<Amaranth> where is -changes at now?
<fabbione> perforate
<Amaranth> *groan*
* Kamion is marking most of breezy-changes read
<Amaranth> lots of p packages
<Amaranth> python stuff, php stuff, perl stuff....
<seb128> the breezy packages are built with gcc4 ?
<Amaranth> yep
<Kamion> seb128: for C, yes
<Amaranth> C++ isn't?
<Kamion> not yet, see gcc-defaults changelog
<seb128> we don't want a transition now
<Kamion> C++ requires a transition
<seb128> was not just sure about gcc, thanks Kamion 
<Amaranth> i thought 4 was supposed to be compatible with 3.4 for C++
<pitti> Amaranth: yeah, but so far we use 3.3
<Amaranth> ah
<zyga> how long does it take to build ff on a modern 1cpu box?
<zyga> < 1h? 
<pitti> about 1 h maybe
<Amaranth> why 3.3 for java?
<Amaranth> i thought all the exciting java stuff was in 4.0
* zyga -> shower
<doko> Amaranth: depends on C++
<Amaranth> ah
<Amaranth> going to wait until you get sid imported and cleaned up before moving to 4 or is that not a breezy goal?
<Kamion> getting sid imported and cleaned up is always a goal, but will happen in parallel
<Kamion> weird, http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/breezy/main/ has binary-hppa but not binary-ia64
<fabbione> Kamion: yeah
<fabbione> ia64 has been moved out of the way
<doko> Kamion: that was turned off before the release?
<Kamion> where's ia64 gone? I need to know for debootstrap
<fabbione> probably elmo missed the rsync exclude line
<Kamion> I'm not surprised about ia64 being gone, I'm surprised about hppa being there. :)
<fabbione> Kamion: i think it will be moved to ports.u.c
<fabbione> that is not up yet
<Kamion> ok. breezy won't be sanely debootstrappable for a bit anyway
<fabbione> yeah
<zyga> infinity: it's built 
<zyga> infinity: seems that a nice .deb is in place too :-)
<Amaranth> seb128: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=300589 <--that bug you wanted me to file
<zyga> and it broke ;-)
<zyga> pretty symbols now :>
<Treenaks> zyga: url?
<zyga> infinity: just a moment
<zyga> (gdb) bt full
<zyga> #0  0x0000002a9a422663 in nsObjectFrame::PluginNotAvailable () from /usr/lib/mozilla-firefox/components/libgklayout.so
<zyga> No symbol table info available.
<zyga> hmmm
<zyga> why is that? no symbol table info avail?
<Amaranth> PluginNotAvailable?!?
<maswan> Mithrandir: sbd2? I wiped that filesystem, so I guess I should edit the fstab to reflect that.
<Amaranth> ouch, it shouldn't fail on that :)
<zyga> www.suxx.pl/firefox-crash
<Mithrandir> maswan: ah, ok.
<Mithrandir> maswan: any reason for who and friends to hang and such?
<zyga> hmm
* zyga noticed I've used pl_PL LANG
<zyga> if you want I can re-run this with LANG=C
<maswan> Mithrandir: works fine for me? :)
<Amaranth> zyga: Start firefox in safe mode and see if it crashes.
<zyga> Amaranth: how?
<Amaranth> firefox --safe-mode, appearently
<astharot> ciao
<Mithrandir> maswan: in the base system too?
<Mithrandir> maswan: ps -ef hangs too
<maswan> ah, ps -ef hangs for me
<Amaranth> does anyone know what 'ubuntu-geek' from the forums goes by on IRC?
<maswan> Mithrandir: who works fine though. hmm.. lets see.
<zyga> Amaranth: it crashed again
<Treenaks> hostinggeek maybe?
<zyga> Amaranth: uploading logs 
<Amaranth> Treenaks: Not a chance.
<d3vic3> heh 
<Mithrandir> maswan: w hangs
<Amaranth> Treenaks: ubuntu-geek is the ubuntuforums.org admin :P
<Treenaks> Amaranth: ah.. ok
<maswan> Mithrandir: ah
<Amaranth> zyga: That log will be the one you want to give to the firefox developers.
<zyga> Amaranth: the first time I've started it in safe mode it broke on some thread stuff
<zyga> Amaranth: re-started it worked fine untill it broke ;-)
<pitti> jbailey: uh, I almost missed your glibc changelog amongst the spam^Wauto-sync ones
* pitti cranks up procmail
<Amaranth> what is -changes on now?
<d3vic3> breezy
<Treenaks> Amaranth: back on o (again)
<Amaranth> *groan*
<Treenaks> Amaranth: your dialup will love you
<Amaranth> Treenaks: 5mbit cable :)
<Amaranth> and i'm not on the list yet, i subscribed somewhere in the middle to end of the auto-sync
<Treenaks> php4-auth-pam...
<zyga> Amaranth: I've filed the bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=290294
<zyga> Thanks for your help :-)
<infinity> zyga : Thanks for filing it.
* Amaranth isn't a mozilla dev, but cool
<mvirkkil> Is it possible to spawn a new process from python and have startup-notification?
<Treenaks> how long will this import mail flood take?
<Amaranth> couple more hours? :)
<Treenaks> we can only hope ;)
<Amaranth> someone said it was 12 hours behind
<Treenaks> is it building?
<Treenaks> or did the binaries get imported as well?
<maswan> Mithrandir: my guess is that the old biarch system is simply borked, that's why it would be nice to have a working installer kernel so I could reinstall the machine on the proper disk.
<Mithrandir> maswan: ok.  Do you know what's broken in the current kernel?
<Amaranth> it's building
<Treenaks> why is it "qsynaptics", not synaptiqs
<Amaranth> ?
<Treenaks> Amaranth: oh, just seeing "qsynaptics" in my mailbox
<maswan> Mithrandir: Not more than the current bug report in the matter
* infinity loves hearing about all the really nasty bugs right after a release.
<maswan> Mithrandir: Of course, I haven't tried the very latest version, because it is a fair bit of work to take it down and try an install.
<maswan> infinity: the bug is some months old, applied to warty install kernel as well as the hoary daily a month or two ago
<infinity> maswan : Err, I wasn't talking about that at all, actually. :)
<maswan> infinity: ah, ok. :)
<infinity> maswan : A bug that just got filed against Sarge's php4, which is, of course, in hoary.
<Amaranth> url?
<Mithrandir> maswan: hm, ok
<infinity> Amaranth : http://bugs.debian.org/304601
<infinity> Oh well, can't win 'em all with time-based releases.
<mvirkkil> Is it possible to spawn a new process from a python program and have startup-notification for that process? Or perhaps spawn it through gnome in some way?
<mvirkkil> Ask gnome to start up a program from a specified .dekstop file
<Treenaks> mvirkkil: why?
<Treenaks> mvirkkil: maybe look at how nautilus does it?
<Treenaks> mvirkkil: or the menu..
<Treenaks> mvirkkil: and imitate in pygtk
<mvirkkil> Treenaks: Gnome-app-install can spawn synaptic. If synaptic is slow to start it will look like g-a-i just died since synaptic hasn't come up yet.
<mvirkkil> Though personally I don't think it should be possible to launch synaptic from g-a-i
* infinity -> home.
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, why not?
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Because they are different programs for different people.
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, but they serve the same purpose in the eyes of the user
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, they just need to brought a little closer together in terms of ui
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Well, I'm not so sure about that.
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Exactly. The ui's are totally different
<Burgundavia> I think that gai should be extended to everything
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Wow. I don't.
<Burgundavia> and we need screenshots and longer descriptions in them
<Burgundavia> we need a good app installer
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: I think g-a-i should be an application installer.
<Burgundavia> gai and synaptic are lovely, but too limited
<Burgundavia> synatpic because of its ui
<Burgundavia> and gai because of the artificial limits of just main
<Burgundavia> and no screenshots and longer descriptions
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: You need something like Linspire Click and Run. :)
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: I somewhat agree that screenshots and longer descriptions might be nice, but then again I feel that gai might be better as a simple program for maintaining the most common apps.
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, yes, but without the linspire cruft
<Amaranth> of course
<Burgundavia> but what about the really nice stuff in universe?
<Amaranth> but something that easy and nice to use :)
<Burgundavia> like gai
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: I really hate the idea of teaching people to install stuff from their browser.
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: --^
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, so do I, that is why I see gai as the answer
<Amaranth> mvirkkil: It doesn't have to run from a browser, that's why I said 'like'.
<Burgundavia> an offline tool, that connects to everything
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: That's an interesing idea.
<UbuWu> I have an idea for the installer
<UbuWu> why not create an apt:// protocol
<Burgundavia> in about 30 secs I could list what I want
<Burgundavia> make that a screenshot
<UbuWu> that would fire up synaptic to install a program
<Amaranth> UbuWu: Nasty. :)
<UbuWu> so I can make a link to apt://program-name in a website
<pitti> uh, tricky situation
<pitti> I have a security update of package foo, with the same version in warty and hoary
<pitti> so actually both updates would be -ubuntu0.1, which isn't possible
<pitti> I guess I just name the hoary one -ubuntu0.2...
<tseng> elmo: did you get a reminder from me to keychain@? i just realized that my isp has started blocking outgoing mail silently
<mvo> UbuWu: this will be discussed at the package management bof at the UDU conference
<mvo> UbuWu: there is also a wiki page about it that dicusses various pros/cons 
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, Amaranth: http://img114.echo.cx/my.php?image=appinstallmyway7gd.png
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, Amaranth very crude
<Amaranth> I hate it. ;)
<Burgundavia> good
<Burgundavia> I like strong reactions out of people
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, honestly? what do you think of it?
<mvo> Burgundavia: I don't think that is the way to go. if we want screenshots and rich markup, we can't use a GtkTreeView, it will be a lot of work with little gain
<Amaranth> Well, I thought g-a-i was a bad idea to begin with, adding more on to it doesn't fix it. :)
<mvo> also I think the general idea to have something click-n-run like is worthwhile :)
<Amaranth> Let's do it in Python! :)
<Burgundavia> mvo, but that is clicknrun done right, in my view
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: Show me 200 apps in that with 3 paragraph descriptions and screenshots big enough to see anything.
<mvo> Burgundavia: what is wrong with click-n-run? that it is web-based?
<Burgundavia> mvo, 1. linspire 2. seems cludgy, from the views i have seen. 3. nonfree
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, you wouldn't have all 300 app
<Burgundavia> ok
<Burgundavia> let me rework
<Burgundavia> the ubuntu doc project already has a screenshot for everything in main
<mvo> Burgundavia: we can do better in all points I think :) and I also think that rich markup will be needed. I don't think it will work well within the GtkTreeView context
<Burgundavia> mvo, I am not commenting on the software that is needed. I am looking for a user perspective. What would make me install the software?
<UbuWu> Mmm still think my idea would fit in here that was why I was mentioning it: make something like gnomefiles.org with links to synaptic for installing. That way would keep users to be familiair to synaptic and g-a-i could be gotten rid of alltogether.
<mvo> Burgundavia: then I totally agree. we need screenshots and a long localized description
<Burgundavia> UbuWu, web based installing is a link to malware and spyware
<UbuWu> no not if it is from a thrusted source, it would still use the standard ubuntu repos
<mvo> UbuWu: yes, I like the idea too. the problem is that we probably don't want it from a web-browser. but using html has some advantages
<UbuWu> the main advantage I see is that sites like gnomefiles.org will be adding the links as well, which will make users life much easier
<Burgundavia> UbuWu, making users lives easier does not involved letting them get into the idea of installing off the web, which leads to spyware
<Burgundavia> security and usability go hand in hand
<UbuWu> no it doesn't lead to spyware as long as spyware doesn't go into the official repositories
<Burgundavia> however, if they click on a link in ff/galeon/etc. and get an app installed, your average user is not going to know the diff between spyware and our repos
<UbuWu> that is why I would like it to open up synaptic, and asking for a password as usual off course.
<Burgundavia> but that doesn't solve the user viewpoint issue
<locomorto> Actually i heard jdub say we would be getting something similiar to linspire point n' click system. Look for more details at 'UDU'
<locomorto> which would be like what your suggesting, only controllable
<mvirkkil> How about turning that on its head. How about using g-a-i to browse the programs, then when clicking on additional info, they would get a firefox window with all the info they want.
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> you need one stop shopping
<Burgundavia> look--see-install
<Burgundavia> no external programs
<Burgundavia> why not used mozembed
<Burgundavia> s/used/use
<locomorto> cause its still through a browser
<locomorto> and if mozilla dies their tied to it
<mvirkkil> locomorto: No it isn't.
<Burgundavia> there are 2 issues here
<Burgundavia> technical
<Burgundavia> user perception
<Burgundavia> the 1st is fairly easy
<mvirkkil> I'm only worried about nr 2
<locomorto> the Klick program is fine
* mvirkkil feels dirty
<locomorto> why try to re-invent the wheel
<Burgundavia> 2 is my major issue as well
<locomorto> is their any advatnage to do it through mozembed?
<Burgundavia> locomorto, doesn't look like a browser
<mvirkkil> locomorto: Integration with g-a-i
<locomorto> g-a-i?
<Burgundavia> gai needs to NOT look like a browser
<Amaranth> using two seperate apps would be horrible
<Amaranth> confusing
<mvirkkil> locomorto: Gnome-app-install -> wouldn't be a browser.
<locomorto> Burgundavia: why not used mozembed
<Burgundavia> you don't necessarily need all the html
<doko>  HAPPY BIRTHDAY pitti, 1/4 century old ... ;-)
<Burgundavia> you need 4 things
<Amaranth> yeah, use the python wrapper around gtkmozembed
<Burgundavia> 1. app name
<locomorto> and i was asking what the advantages of doing it rhough that would be anyway
<Burgundavia> 2. app picture
<Burgundavia> 3. app description
<Burgundavia> 4. which repo
<Burgundavia> those a simple xml could be contrived for that
<UbuWu> Still I only see advantages of using a browser if it can be kept safe
<Burgundavia> UbuWu, inherently unsafe in my view
<pitti> doko: thanks!
* Burgundavia claps pitti on the back. Happy birthday
<Amaranth> happy birthday oldtimer^Wpitti
<UbuWu> doesn't have to be
<Amaranth> UbuWu: It gives users the wrong idea.
<locomorto> ok Burgundavia, why do you think doing it through mozembed would be good?
<Burgundavia> locomorto, I was just suggesting an easy way
<Burgundavia> I didn't say it would be good
<UbuWu> as long as the browser doesn't do the installing and can't start installing a random program but only the ones that are known safe
<Amaranth> UbuWu: If Ubuntu packages come from a firefox window, they'll think packages from 3rd parties are safe
<mvo> happy birthday pitti 
<Burgundavia> UbuWu, it will look the same to a user
<UbuWu> packages don't come from the window
<Burgundavia> UbuWu, ^
<UbuWu> that is why it would have to open up synaptic
<pitti> thanks everybody! :-)
<UbuWu> to show the difference
<Amaranth> UbuWu: Users were starting their install from firefox, it doesn't matter what it opens/
<UbuWu> but they cannot install anything unsafe grom it
<Burgundavia> UbuWu, not from us, no, but they will install from other sources
<Amaranth> But it makes them think firefox was installing so installing things from firefox is ok.
<locomorto> but they would be accustomed to thinking stuff from there was safe
<locomorto> they might think in future that it would be safe, even if it did not open synaptic
<Burgundavia> <app>
<Burgundavia> <name>Text Editor</name>
<Burgundavia> <image>gedit.png</name>
<Burgundavia> <desc>blahblahblah</desc>
<Burgundavia> <repo>main</repo>
<Burgundavia> </app>
<Burgundavia> that is all you really need
<Amaranth> Let's do it in the iTunes Music Store format.
<Lathiat> Burgundavia: and translations...
<Burgundavia> Lathiat, true
<Burgundavia> Lathiat, but for rendering, you wouldn't need all of gecko
<UbuWu> no much more as more programs get in.... some kind of ranking system at least: rating and downloads
<Burgundavia> UbuWu, ranking is nice, but a secondary goal
<Burgundavia> downloads?
<UbuWu> number of downloads
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> but that would be dynamic
<Amaranth> Let's do it in .desktop file format.
<Burgundavia> sure
<Burgundavia> need a longer description
<Burgundavia> and a link to a image
<Burgundavia> even repo can be figured out on the flyt
<mvirkkil> We could add X-AppInstall-DescriptionUrl= and X-AppInstall-ScreenshotUrl=
<mvirkkil> To the .desctop file
<Amaranth> drop the Url bit
<Burgundavia> I would have local descrips and images
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: For all applications? That might be costly with universe
<Amaranth> btw, this system needs to work without requiring packages to change anything, i'd think
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, hmm, might be
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, then .desktop is out
<Burgundavia> but a simple format like it would be good
<Amaranth> It can pull the description from the one provided.
<Amaranth> Yeah, I'm changing my mind on .desktop files. :)
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Why can't you use .desktop?
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, need to change every single app
<Amaranth> debian/control usually has a nice description, we can just pull that out
<Amaranth> screenshots are going to be tricky
<Burgundavia> deb is sort of nice
<Burgundavia> need to impose some sort of rules on them though
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: But g-a-i will come iwth it's own .desktop files?
<Burgundavia> true
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, just realized that
<Amaranth> on screenshots or on descriptions?
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, descriptions
* Amaranth is viewing all this from kicking g-a-i to the curb and going with something like CnR, but not in a browser
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, screenshots would all have to a standard size as well, but that is easy
<Amaranth> I wonder if it'd be possible for a machine to automatically generate screenshots.
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Sufre it would.
<Amaranth> It's be painful for the first run, after that it shouldn't be too much of a load.
<Burgundavia> I have looked at a script for the doc stuff
<Burgundavia> as we maintain a lot of screenshots for our quickguide
<Amaranth> hmm, having them autogenerated would suck
<Amaranth> some apps don't look like much until they're doing something
<Burgundavia> most apps can be fed some sort of cli option for a file
<Burgundavia> a default file
<Amaranth> I think thinking more of how I take screenshots for PyMusique.
<Amaranth> I need to login to iTunes and run a search before taking a screenshot for it to look like anything.
<Burgundavia> the issue is that it would need to be done every six months for the new artwork
<Amaranth> this is why i punt :)
<Amaranth> make the packages take the screenshots :)
<Amaranth> err, packagers
<Burgundavia> hmmn
<Goshawk> mjg59, i neet to talk with you
<Goshawk> can i query you?
<Burgundavia> too many of our packagers are debian people
<Burgundavia> needs to be ubuntu people
<UbuWu> think it would be easier to make a script to download a good screenshot from the web
<Burgundavia> UbuWu, from where and it what standard format?
<Burgundavia> s/it/in
<UbuWu> only as a base to start from I would suggest, but it would be possible to use google images to search for a nice screenshot
<Burgundavia> hmm
<Burgundavia> copyright issues
<UbuWu> that's true
<Burgundavia> and not in the ubuntu them
<Burgundavia> s/them/theme
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: I'm sure main at least could get screenshot'ed and the universe team could work on universe, even if they don't finish.
<UbuWu> hmm... you are right not a good idea
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, main is already screenshotted
<Amaranth> apps without screenshots would get a default "No Screenshot Available" image
<Amaranth> well, that solves that
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, although the theme changed on us right before the release
<Amaranth> heh
* Burgundavia grumbles
<Burgundavia> that is why breezy has an artwork freeze date
<mvirkkil> How can I spawn a program with the users rights when I'm using a program sudoed?
<Amaranth> well, you'll be doing it again for breezy anyway, might as well standardize where to put the screenshot so CnR^2 can get it :)
<mvo> mvirkkil: there is a SUDO_USER enviroment 
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, yes
<Amaranth> didn't sabdfl request the theme change?
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, yep as well
<Amaranth> and the spatial change?
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, 3rd time lucky
* Amaranth hmms
<Burgundavia> I like the theme change, just not so late
<mvirkkil> mvo: If I'd like to spawn something from g-a-i that would run as the user who started it? What does that env contain?
<mvirkkil> mvo: never mind. I'm stupid
<Amaranth> ack, kick g-a-i to the curb :)
<Amaranth> I'm thinking something searchable that shows app names as results, not package names and uses gtkmozembed to display the info
<mvo> mvirkkil: do you want to launch a browser :) ? 
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: No matter what we are going to do, unless it's using firefox, we'll be using some of the same stuff g-a-i uses
<mvirkkil> mvo: Thought about testing what the interface may be like. But I figure it's going to suck, so thinking about alternatives now.
<Amaranth> yeah, but hopefully not with that UI :)
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Please make a better one. I would _really_ appreciate good suggestions!
<Amaranth> I just decribed the start of one.
<Amaranth> :)
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Please re-cap.
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Especially how the view is split up, what buttons goes where, if there will be menues/toolbars.
<Amaranth> You have two sections, left and right. The left side has a search input and a treeview showing the results as a list. It shows the app's name in the list, not the package name (this isn't for getting libraries). When you choose an app from the list it shows the info about it in the right pane using gtkmozembed.
<Amaranth> I don't know about menubars or toolbars, I guess so. :)
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: So the programs wouldn't be categorized in any way?
<Amaranth> hmm
<locomorto> can you do it using Python and wxWidgets?
<Amaranth> I could do it using Python and PyGTK. :)
<mvirkkil> locomorto: wxWidets suckk
<locomorto> ok fine PyGTK
<mvirkkil> (as does my spelling)
<locomorto> i might even start laerning it agian
<locomorto> i stopped after i could not fingure out while a simple program would NOT do what i want. It was annoying
<Amaranth> ok, extension to this idea
<Amaranth> the treeview is inside a notebook with a tab for browsing categories and one for searching
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: I think using the gai interface but adding a info view to the right is plausible.
<Amaranth> but you still have the menu structure there
<Amaranth> which would be confusing, i think
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: BTW my current gai version uses tabs for multiple meta categories like services, games etc. You can check out http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/old_new_appinstall.png
<Amaranth> well, not if you followed it to it's full potential
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Followed what?
<Amaranth> g-a-i with an info view on the right
<Amaranth> turn the current g-a-i into the categorized browsing i was talking about
* Keybuk boggles... changes (2265 new); I didn't think even seb and pitti between them could upload that fast! :o)
<Amaranth> Keybuk: auto-sync :)
<Keybuk> yeah, I know ;p  just amused
<mpt> mvirkkil: Is there ever any category other than "Applications"?
<Amaranth> yay, breezy-changes finished spamming and gave me my subscription notice
<Burgundavia> mpt, I belive they are going to add services
<Amaranth> mpt: Well, System->Preferences and System->Administration
<Burgundavia> mpt, you are going around the web. linux today just picked up on your blog
<Amaranth> mpt: Your bandwidth limit has been exceeded. :P
<mpt> oh crap
<mpt> I meant to e-mail them today to say "yes, I'll pay whatever"
<Amaranth> heh
<Amaranth> $$$$$$$$$
<Burgundavia> mpt, charge it all to canonical
* Treenaks wouldn't pay whatever
<Amaranth> wait until slashdot hits you
<mvirkkil> mpt: Not at the moment :O)
<Burgundavia> mpt, what do you think of gai?
<Amaranth> ah, ask the wizard :)
<Amaranth> mpt: You're like our tog. :)
<mpt> Amaranth: I might be grumpy like tog, but I don't have vast experience like tog
<mpt> Burgundavia: When I find out what gai is, I'll tell you :-D
<Burgundavia> mpt, gnome-app-install
<Burgundavia> mpt, we have been debating ways to make it better
<Burgundavia> applications-->add/remove programs
<mpt> Drag-and-drop, baby!
* mpt stops dreaming for a moment
<Amaranth> mpt: I've got the grumpy bit down too. :)
<Amaranth> mpt: lmao, this isn't a mac
<mpt> ADD OR REMOVE APPLICATIONS
<mpt> hmmm
<Amaranth> ?
<mpt> I'm looking at the Hoary version
<mpt> That heading is a little ... large?
<Amaranth> It's all a little....large.
<Burgundavia> to me, it 'feels wrong'
<Amaranth> eek
<Burgundavia> I cannot place why
<Amaranth> if you click advanced it closes and opens synaptic
<Amaranth> with no warning or way to get back
<kiko> mpt!
<Amaranth> where does it get it's data from?
<Amaranth> on what apps show up in that list
<mpt> kiko
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, .desktop files from the gai package
<mvo> Amaranth: it has a collection of .dekstop files with additional meta-data
<kiko> how is our iconoclastic kiwi this morning
<Amaranth> gah
<mvirkkil> Mockup: http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/shot.png
<Amaranth> too bad pulling all that info from apt would be too slow
<mpt> kiko: Not so good, I appear to have run out of bandwidth
<mpt> kiko: And I still can't merge, but that's a story for another channel
<Amaranth> mpt: If you have a copy somewhere I'll mirror it with a redirect to coral cache.
<Amaranth> So I don't get charged $$$$ and it's still viewable. :)
<Amaranth> mvirkkil: I like it! :)
<Amaranth> or at least, i like where it's going
<mpt> alas
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Still think g-a-i sucks? Then we just add a search button and that would highlight the thing?
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, nice, but I would put the desc inline along with the picture for fast browsing
<UbuWu> there is nowhere an indication what is going to be installed after you click apply on g-a-i
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: You can't.
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: I'm not sure I follow
<mpt> Are we assuming that no-one would ever want to install/uninstall *everything* in a particular category?
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, I realize you can't
<Amaranth> mpt: More of less. I don't think anyone wants to uninstall the calculator and text editor. :)
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, http://www.happypenguin.org/list?sort=avg_rating think like this with desriptions and images
<Amaranth> it'd be nice if it had a list of all the packages in main, at least
<Amaranth> dunno how it would get them, but it'd be nice
<Amaranth> or even just all the ones that ship on the cd
<mpt> mvirkkil: For little things, I suggest (1) changing the window title to "Add/Remove Applications", and getting rid of the header ...
<mvirkkil> mpt: ok.
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, that url make it clearer?
<mpt> (2) getting rid of the "Applications" bar, assuming it's not some sort of category heading (and if it is, why isn't it just an expander open by default?)
<Amaranth> If Advanced opens synaptic then synaptic needs a toolbar button to go back to simple
<Amaranth> mpt: Applications bar? you mean the tabs?
<Amaranth> wow, i have lots of typos :)
<mpt> Amaranth: Hrmm, is the new one on the left or the right? :-)
<mpt> the filename is "old_new" so I assumed it was left_right
<mvirkkil> mpt: Heh. Sorry about that. It's the other way around
<Amaranth> mpt: Drag-and-drop like on OS X would never work on Linux because Linux apps use lots of small tools together to build a full app. Static linking all of theme would be a massive waste of space.
<Amaranth> them*
<mpt> yeah
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: See 0install or zero install
<mvo> or klik.atekon.de
<mvirkkil> Though that is different from osx 
<mpt> mvirkkil: If you're only ever going to have one tab, you shouldn't be using tabs
<pitti> Keybuk: indeed, elmo raised the bar quite high :-)
<Lathiat> is there some way apt can list all dpkg sections it has in its database?
<Amaranth> "doesn't share libraries, requires a fast/always-on net connection, or whatever other misconception you've acquired about Zero Install after reading one paragraph."
<Amaranth> hehe
<mvirkkil> mpt: There will be more
<Amaranth> mpt: I think we'll have more tabs.
<mpt> ok
<mpt> such as?
<Amaranth> Just one for the mockup.
<Treenaks> Amaranth: what will they be used for?
<Amaranth> Treenaks: mvirkkil said something about services.
<Treenaks> oh yes.. windows file sharing, etc.?
<Amaranth> mvirkkil: "Memo runs everything it needs directly from the remote machines where they're stored" <--it'll never happen
<mvirkkil> Games, services etc.
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Memo=?
<Treenaks> mvirkkil: games are already in the applications menu
<Amaranth> mvirkkil: Their example app on the 0install page.
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: It fetches them just like apt does and stores them locally
<Amaranth> oh, they make it sound like it runs on the remote machine
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Read more
<Amaranth> this would require deb packages for all their dependencies though
<Burgundavia> mpt, http://ianmurdock.com/archives/000251.html
<Burgundavia> mpt, http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/index.php?p=236
<locomorto> is there any chance we could see scheduled BT downloading in breezy?
<Treenaks> scheduled BT downloading?
<Treenaks> locomorto: like "Start downloading this torrent tonight at 23:00"?
<locomorto> yes!
<locomorto> i have offpeak unmetered traffic from 2-8am
<mpt> Burgundavia: I saw the latter
<Burgundavia> mpt,  interesting
<Treenaks> locomorto: a generic "start this program then-and-then" would be nice...
<mpt> Burgundavia: And I thought "Slow news day at ZDnet"
<Treenaks> locomorto: (i.e. a graphical "at")
<locomorto> i think i could do it through cron, but i was kinda hoping like you said it could be through a GUI or something geared towerds exactly that rather then writing shell scripts
<locomorto> i dont know how to close programs with a script, only start them. Does anyone knwo how to do that?
<Treenaks> locomorto: keep them in the background& and kill &1
<locomorto> example?
<Treenaks> locomorto: 1 script:
<Treenaks> hm wait
<Treenaks> does that work in scripts
<mvirkkil> Amaranth, mvo, mpt: Another mockup. This time you'll have to imagine the tree and images: http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/shot2.png
<Amaranth> what's with the images in the top right?
<mvirkkil> The idea is that now the info thingie is inside the ptab
<Amaranth> mvirkkil: You still didn't incorporate mpt's ideas.
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: I'e done that with glade. Don't worry about that.
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Specify.
<Amaranth> mvirkkil: lose the header and change the window title to Add/Remove Programs
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Yes I did.
<locomorto> whats the difference besides the names of stuff?
<Amaranth> not in this mockup
* mpt blinks
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: THough I see what you meant. I guess I mis understood.
<mvirkkil> mpt?
<mpt> mvirkkil: No panic, I was just waiting for you and Amaranth to understand each other :-)
<Treenaks> mvirkkil: the window title (how "Application Installer")  should be "Add/Remove programs", and the words "Add/Remove programs" should disappear from the gray area
<mvirkkil> Treenaks: Yes, I figured it out. I mis understood what mpt meant
<Amaranth> i'm hopeless with glade otherwise I'd do some mockups :)
<mpt> I tried making something with glade a couple of days ago
<mpt> and for the life of me I cannot figure out how to change the header of a tab!
<Treenaks> mpt: but you found out you have to fix the glade interface first? ;)
<pitti> hmm, this exploit worked pretty well..
<Treenaks> exploit?
<d3vic3> hmm ?
<mvo> mpt: we can have a glade bof at UDU if you want :)
<Amaranth> making glade easier to use turns it into gazpacho :)
<Amaranth> but gazpacho is a PITA too
<mvo> Amaranth: is it 100% compatible with libglade now?
<mpt> Amaranth: Eheh, I was just about to mention gazpacho, because one of their devs asked me for advice on something
<Amaranth> mvo: Err, sure? :)
* Amaranth has no clue
<mvirkkil> Amaranth, mvo, mp: http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/shot3.png
<mvirkkil> mpt even
<Amaranth> yay for the muine package claiming to own /usr/lib/mono!
* Amaranth stabs things and uninstalls muine
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, I noticed that
<mvo> Amaranth: last time I tired it it was not able to load the synaptic glade files
<Amaranth> mvo: how long ago was that?
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, if you are getting that error from beagle, just install beagle and then reinstall muine
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: beagle? where do i get that? :)
<mvo> Amaranth: a couple of weeks, maybe two month
<Amaranth> i'm getting it from mono-assemblies-base
* Treenaks wants beagle loving!
<mvirkkil> No thoughts on the gui?
<Amaranth> libdus-cil claims /usr/lib/mono too
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, http://beaglewiki.org/index.php/UbuntuInstall
<Amaranth> i'm just going to force it
<Burgundavia> works great
<Burgundavia> sort of
<mpt> mvirkkil: That looks fine ... My only complaints now are things that would require changes to the HIG :-)
<mvirkkil> mpt: Cool. Like what?
<Amaranth> so lets change the HIG :)
<koke> hey, what do you think about http://koke.amedias.org/2005/04/14/more-stylished-bullets-for-ubuntu-website/ ??
<Burgundavia> koke, looks good
<Treenaks> c
<Treenaks> uh
<Treenaks> this is not mutt
<Amaranth> hehe
<koke> I'll file a bug when I have some more time :)
<Mithrandir> no, this is IRC.  We're real-time.
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: oh I don't change folders then? 8)
<Amaranth> we're not archaic mail apps, sorry
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: it's called channels.
<Treenaks> Amaranth: mutt is archaic?
<mpt> mvirkkil: Like getting rid of the row of buttons along the bottom, and adding menus, and ... silly stuff like that
<Amaranth> the row of buttons on the bottom could be a toolbar
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: I htought about that actually. Didn't look very good though.
<Amaranth> adding menus is doable, if you can think of what the menus would be for
<mpt> File would contain "Add", "Remove", and "Close"; Edit would contain "Undo", "Redo", "Copy", "Select All", and "Find..."; Help would contain "Help Using Add/Remove Programs" and "About"
<Burgundavia> mpt, why do you need those things?
<Burgundavia> mpt, there are lots of windows that gnome has that don't have those things
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: HIG
<Burgundavia> umm
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: only dialogs, this is an app
<mpt> Burgundavia: I know. That's why I said, it would be a HIG change.
<Treenaks> mpt:  none of the "control panel" apps have a menu..
<mpt> Treenaks: I. Know. :-)
<Burgundavia> Treenaks, my point exactly
<Treenaks> (s/control panel/preferences and/or system administration)
<Burgundavia> thost are gnome created
<mpt> Undo/Redo would probably be the most useful of the items I mentioned
* Treenaks wonders what a HIG compliant GPS map app would look like
<mpt> though Find would possibly be even more useful
<mpt> Treenaks: Give me screenshots of a non-compliant one, and I'll give you mockups of a compliant one
<Treenaks> mpt: http://gpsdrive.kraftvoll.at/screenshots.shtml
<pitti> doko: the new OO.o simply won't start for me
<pitti> doko: does that work for you?
<Treenaks> a way to save/restore a list of installed apps would probably be nice too
<Treenaks> so you can save the list, and reload it on your new PC or something
<mvo> Treenaks: synaptic can do that 
<pitti> darn, I have to go
<Treenaks> mvo: then gnome-app-install can do that too :)
<mvo> pitti: celebrating your birthday?
<mvo> Treenaks: heh :)
<pitti> mvo: if you meet doko, can you please ask him to check the OO.o update again? It just crashes for me
<Treenaks> mvo: I've seen people be scared of synaptic(!)
<pitti> mvo: yeah, sort of. Surprise from my gf
<pitti> bye, folks
<Treenaks> hey, it seems like the list/mailserver caught up
<mvo> Treenaks: yeah :/ 
<Treenaks> mvo: well, I don't blame them.. it's a bit overwhelming voor new users
<mvo> Treenaks: yes. that's why we need g-a-i and/or click-n-run
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: beagle doesn't work on breezy :P
<dand> is there a program that shows the character set/encoding of a file (i tried /usr/bin/file with no luck)?
<Amaranth> I guess I have to wait for a new version.
<Treenaks> dand: uh, you could try iconv
<Burgundavia> foolish Amaranth, stay on hoary for a while
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: Bleh, I like danger. :)
<Amaranth> And I'm waiting for the mono 1.1.6 packages to start rolling in so I can help work on SharpMusique.
<Amaranth> Or at least use it to get my pepsi caps because I'm too lazy to add support to PyMusique.
<Treenaks> Amaranth: like a colleague of mine once said about bleeding edge software: <jtv>           My edge /always/ bleeds.
<dand> Treenaks: thanks, but iconv only converts files. anyway, i'm on the wrong channel, sorry.
<Amaranth> Treenaks: I don't get it.
<Burgundavia> must   have   latest   crack!!!
<Treenaks> dand: if you only give it a "to" character set it'll convert from anything it detects
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: Damn straight.
<Amaranth> Burgundavia: That week of no upgrades was painful.
<Burgundavia> I am feeling the withdrawal as well
<Amaranth> the sid sync makes up for it though, all new crack, every 15 minutes
<Treenaks> Amaranth: \o/
<Treenaks> Amaranth: but it's unprocessed crack!
<Amaranth> Treenaks: You know nothing about drugs, do you? Pure crack is better than processed. :)
<Amaranth> processed == mixed with battery acid
<locomorto> dont worry
<locomorto> breezy is out now
<Treenaks> Amaranth: I'm from the Netherlands.. I know /all/ about drugs ;)
<locomorto> rofl
<Treenaks> Amaranth: no processed as in cleaned up, purified ;)
<Amaranth> oh, good processed
<Amaranth> meh, you get it faster if you're willing to get it messy :)
<locomorto> i know a firend from the netherlands
<locomorto> he just got dumped
<Amaranth> I waiting until hoary had xorg before I jumped off warty, couldn't wait that long this time.
<Burgundavia> better crack where I live
<locomorto> just make sure to check your bags for crack
<mpt> Treenaks: Hmmmmmm ... Are you going to implement the compliant one? ;-)
<locomorto> when you go on the airline
<Treenaks> mpt: I think I might, yes.. in python
<Treenaks> mpt: and less detail by default.. :)
<Burgundavia> I don't think this app needs menus
<locomorto> no
<locomorto> just have it in one huge scroll down box
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: you need undo/redo and/or find
<Burgundavia> can be buttons
<locomorto> only going to be what, 1,000+ things in it
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: no! then you'd have 50 buttons
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: which sucks
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: and only a toolbar looks ugly
<Burgundavia> nope
<Burgundavia> three
<Burgundavia> history
<Burgundavia> apply
<Burgundavia> find
<Burgundavia> or have find ala ff
<Burgundavia> on the button by default
<Burgundavia> and history would be another window
<mvirkkil> Damn. By doing mockups I'm missing the conversation :-/
<mpt> heh
<mvirkkil> http://users.tkk.fi/~mvirkkil/shot4.png
<ross> mvirkkil: whats the gap on the right for?
<Treenaks> mvirkkil: apply shouldn't be there.. I think
<mvirkkil> Again you have to imagine the pretty tree view of the packages.
<Treenaks> but I'm not an expert
<mvirkkil> ross: Gap?
<ross> the huge "gaim rules" pane
<mvirkkil> Treenaks: Where would it be? 
<Burgundavia> ross, that is for package description and screenshot
<Treenaks> ross: package descirption
<mvirkkil> ross: Thats for the information about the package. Long description, screenshjots what ever.
<mvirkkil> ross: You weren't here when that discussion started
<ross> obviously not
<Burgundavia> I still hold out that it should be inline
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: I don't understand how it wouldn't be cluttered and hard to read.
<mpt> mvirkkil: What's the gap in the lower left? Is that a progress meter?
<ross> can i point out that maybe the author of the software should be involved in the redesign?
<mvirkkil> mpt: Gnome standard status panel. yes
<kiko> where are my drugs
<Burgundavia> ross, if you want to be
<Burgundavia> ross, we were just kicking ideas around
<mvirkkil> ross: We're just throwing up ideas and I'm making some mockups.
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, looks nice though
<Burgundavia> ross, what do you think?
<mvirkkil> throwind around = throwing up
<ross> i'm not convinced two panes are needed
<Amaranth> mvirkkil: "Add/Remove Programs" :)
<Amaranth> mvirkkil: and you need a menu :)
<mvirkkil> ross: How would you present a long desciption and screenshots?
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: What am I supposed to put in it?
<Burgundavia> mvirkkil, make the P a capital
<Amaranth> File->Quit, Edit->Find, Edit->Preferences for a start
<ross> mvirkkil: description inline, i wouldn't have screenshots
<mpt> mvirkkil: IMO progress meters shouldn't be visible except when they're showing progress
<Burgundavia> mpt, true
<mvirkkil> mpt: agree
<zul> hey
<Burgundavia> ross, you need screenshots to 'sell' the program
* lamont does the school run
<ross> there is no selling involved.  user wants word processor, user selects word processor
<ross> there is no competition in ubuntu
<Burgundavia> ross, screenshots are not that hard to make, and they do help
<Burgundavia> ross, Ubuntu doc team already maintains a complete set for main
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: in all languages?
<mxpxpod> is breezy safe to use?
<Treenaks> mxpxpod: not yet
<mxpxpod> Treenaks: ok
<Amaranth> mvirkkil: Why a games tab?
<Burgundavia> Treenaks, yep, afaik
<Burgundavia> Treenaks, I dont do that side of the doc team
<mvirkkil> Amaranth: Why not? It's just a mockup.
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, I think it is just showing generic categories of apps
<Burgundavia> though I don't know that tabs are the best way to do that
<Amaranth> by services do you mean apache, etc?
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: No, not general categories. 
<mvirkkil> Burgundavia: Or sort of yes. 
<mpt> Burgundavia: Screenshots of an app window inside a help window, though? That's just weird
<Burgundavia> mpt, why?
<Burgundavia> mpt, it is in the much derided by you 'quickguide'
<Burgundavia> mpt, I happen to agree that the term is misplaced
<mvirkkil> ross: If it won't have any screenshots and the description could drop down, I think the original look was the best
<mpt> Burgundavia: Because (1) it's unnecessarily indirect (why not just highlight the items in the actual open window?), and (2) it'll lead to people trying to click on the screenshots by mistake
<Lathiat> mpt: your webhost needs more bandiwdth :)
<mpt> Lathiat: Just sent in my order :-)
<Lathiat> haha
<Burgundavia> mpt, how else do you suggest we show people in howtos how to do something?
<Kamion> mxpxpod: if you have to ask, it isn't. :)
<mxpxpod> Kamion: heh, ok
<mpt> Burgundavia: Smile sweetly at a programmer or three, and ask them to implement a way to highlight actual controls in a program's window when a button is pressed in that window's help file.
<Burgundavia> mpt, that is a lot of programmers to smile sweetly at. My ass might get a little sore
<mpt> Lathiat: http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:5iglv1nwJosJ:mpt.net.nz/&strip=1 if you're desperate
<Burgundavia> mpt, until then, I think I will go with screenshots
<Burgundavia> mpt, I can do that in the breezy timeframe
<mpt> Burgundavia: Fair enough
<ross> there is an open bug request for gtk, with a partial patch, to make widgets glow
<\sh> Burgundavia: vnc2swf 
<Burgundavia> \sh, translations?
<Burgundavia> ross, cool
<mpt> Burgundavia: Ways of lessening the problem would be (1) doing screenshots only of sections of windows, not whole windows, and (2) making them miniatures instead of full-size
<\sh> Burgundavia: vnc 2 flash --- records vnc sessions to flash incl. live mp3 sound
<Lathiat> mpt: haha read it ages ago :)
<\sh> Burgundavia: nice for howtos
<mpt> Burgundavia: Though usually not (1) and (2) simultaneously :-)
<Burgundavia> mpt, I think we need to shrink the quickguide screenshots down for breezy
<Burgundavia> mpt, and yes, my screenshots will not be full windows for the howtos
<Amaranth> ross: Don't GtkNotebook tabs already "glow"?
<mpt> Burgundavia: excellent
<Burgundavia> mpt, we are also looking at a portal. Unfortunately, I will not be at UDU, otherwise we should talk more. I agree with 95% of what you said
<Burgundavia> mpt, on your blog, that is
<mpt> Burgundavia: See, another requirement of a Really Useful Help System is that it needs to be compact. More compact than yelp is by default, even. So I can have the help alongside the thing I'm doing, without having to flip between windows all the time.
<Burgundavia> mpt, yelp is also gnome-only
<ross> Amaranth: no
<Burgundavia> mpt, one of the other people is looking at XUL bar for ff
<mpt> Burgundavia: I saw that
<Burgundavia> mpt,  and we are looking at a wiki-like interface, that ties in with our docbook/svn backend
<mvirkkil> mpt: How about having help split the programs window in two, and show it as if it was a part of the program?
<mvirkkil> Argh.. Have to go now. BBL
<mpt> mvirkkil: Doesn't work if you don't have the program running ... ttyl
<mvirkkil> mpt: True. 
<mpt> Though you could have cooperative window sizing, like in MS Works
<mpt> i.e. when you open the help the document shunts itself out of the way
<Burgundavia> nice: http://lwn.net/Articles/132143/
<mpt> Sorry, not Works, Office
<\sh> btw...toolchain rdy for breezy? compiled and rdy for use? ,->
<Burgundavia> linspire is doing things with swf I see
<\sh> Burgundavia: http://ubuntu.linux-server.org/ packages for vnc2swf and the ming-0.2a lib
<\sh> Burgundavia: compiled against hoary
<Burgundavia> \sh, can you put those up for inclusion in breezy?
<Kamion> \sh: the toolchain's built, yes; it'll go through further changes, though (like switching to g++ 4.0)
<\sh> Burgundavia: motunewpackages knows about my stuff :)
<Burgundavia> \sh, good, thanks
<\sh> Kamion: yeah...wait for all the stuff to build my things
<\sh> wow...that was good.
<\sh> lamacun and a dner
<\sh> i really like turkish food
<Burgundavia> mpt, you are on the doc list? can you give us what you think? bluesky and breezy-timeframe
<mpt> Burgundavia: Actually that's why I signed up on the wiki page for the doc team meeting
<Burgundavia> mpt, thanks
<Amaranth> "an effective freeze has been imposed recently by the arm autobuilders lagging behind" <--ouch
<Amaranth> talking about debian
<Treenaks> and the buildd admins are too bone-headed to allow others to become buildd admins, afaik
<Burgundavia> hmm debian politics
<Burgundavia> makes the world go 'round and no release happen
<jbailey> Mithrandir: you 'dere?
<Kamion> considering many of the people involved are here too, I don't think throwing around insults is a good plan
<jbailey> Kamion: How often does germinate-output update?
<Mithrandir> jbailey: pong
<jbailey> Mithrandir: amd64 libs love.  I need to do an lkh upload to keep lamont and fabionne from chewing on me, I may as well sort out 9211 at the same time.  Got a sec?
<Kamion> jbailey: every hour, at the moment
<Kamion> 2 * * * *               update-germinate
<jbailey> Kamion: Nice, thanks.
<Mithrandir> jbailey: sure
<jbailey> Mithrandir: Why is amd64-libs-dev produced this way instead of the same way sparc64, s390x and friends are?
<Mithrandir> jbailey: this way as in amd64-libs-dev?
<Mithrandir> jbailey: the idea for amd64-libs-dev is it should actually be possible to write amd64 applications on ia32
<jbailey> Mithrandir: Right.  I don't have much exposure to this, so I'm starting from the beginning. =)
<Mithrandir> I'm not sure that's something we should really care about, so I'd be inclined just to move the file to l-k-h
<jbailey> Mithrandir: Is the setup different from other biarch configs because amd64 is a full arch?
<Mithrandir> jbailey: I'd think so, yes.
<jbailey> Hmm.
<Mithrandir> does the file differ between and64-libs-dev and l-k-h?
<jbailey> I haven't looked yet.  The machine is otherwise busy pulling down breezy and my other machines are ppc.
<mantiena> Hi all
<Mithrandir> uhm, amd64-libs, naturally.
<\sh> ok..gcc-4 pre11 is in my breezy chroot now i need a g++ ;)
<jbailey> \sh: g++ is staying at 3.3 until the transition plan is solid.
<\sh> jbailey: to get rid of the ABI problems right now? 
<jbailey> \sh: Not so much get rid of as not dive head first into...
<Kamion> \sh: the bulk of the development team will be at conferences for the next two weeks; now's not a good time for a major transition
<daniels> Kamion: hey dude
<Kamion> yo
<daniels> Kamion: remembered what I wanted to ask you -- have we seen any cases (aside from dodgy media) of installs failing while installing ubuntu-desktop and falling into aptitude?
<daniels> Kamion: a friend claims he's seeing this on a 12" powerbook
<Kamion> not for the release
<daniels> yeah, this was hoary
<\sh> Kamion: roger that :) and I'm quite jealous ;)
<Kamion> I recently noticed that a bug in busybox cp means that media errors may not always be reported properly
<Kamion> #9213
<fabbione> ah
<Amaranth> oops, the gpg key for breezy just messed up or something
<fabbione> so i wasn't completely drunk when i had that problem
<Kamion> yeah, couldn't figure out until today what that way
<Amaranth> apt-get update is saying it's invalid
<Kamion> s/way/was/
<Amaranth> and now it's gone
<Kamion> Amaranth: happens sometimes during mirroring, unfortunately, try again in a bit
<fabbione> Kamion: ehehe well at least i know it wasn't only me :)
<Amaranth> ah
<Amaranth> it wasn't there, then was, then wasn't, then was 3 times, then wasn't
<daniels> Kamion: ah, OK, I'll check with some new media.  cheers.
<mantiena> I have one question about Bootsplash in ubuntu? One of Hoary Goals was nice boot process with Bootsplash, but it seems this goal is moved to next version, right ?
<Amaranth> yes
<ogra> mantiena, that was no hoary goal, it just was on the list of possible goals.....and was postponed very early
<mantiena> ogra: maybe, I don't know true :)
<mantiena> in any case my question is "which bootsplash technology ubuntu developers would recommend me for ubuntu-based distribution ?"
<Treenaks> mantiena: wait for it to be added to breezy.
<mantiena> in debian-desktop mailing list I found this: http://wiki.nanofreesoft.org/index.php/Splashy
<Treenaks> mantiena: it'll probably be completely custom
<Lathiat> splashy works well
<ogra> mantiena, we can say that afetr the conference where this kind of decisions will be made
<Lathiat> needs some tweaking but you install it and it just works (tm)
<mantiena> Treenaks: hehe, why custom ?
<mantiena> ogra, Lathiat: thanks for info
<Lathiat> theyre working on improving it
* Amaranth heads for bed
<\sh> well..this is what i wanna do..take a nap and then writing howtos on ubuntu wiki
<jsgotangco> thats nice
<\sh> a personal walk through: how to build debian packages on ubuntu after being confused with all that geek documenation ;)
<daniels> HOLY SHIT THE WORLD HAS EXPLODED IN MY INBOX
* daniels STARES at all the -accepted mail.
<ogra> daniels, but only in one folder i hope :) or did you miss to set up a filter ?
<lamont> daniels: is DoS attack. :-)
<Treenaks> it's done, too
<\sh> sieve is such a nice invention to the world ;)
<daniels> ogra: i haven't set up filters yet; my mail still lives on kinnison's system and i need to migrate it to thom's
<ogra> ouch
<ogra> daniels, you really should get a own ~
<ogra> :)
<Treenaks> daniels: set up a sponsorship paypal button on freedesktop.org or something 8)
<Lathiat> whoah, 60MB of updates
<Lathiat> been a while since i saw that :)
<ogra> Treenaks, i'm missing gpsd here: https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UbuntuGIS
<Treenaks> ogra: I didn't know about that page :)
<ogra> Treenaks, you dont read ubuntu-devel ? i made an announcement ;)
<Treenaks> ogra: low snr..
<ogra> heh
* Treenaks wants the hoary CDs to be shipped! ;)
<Burgundavia> ogra, was that url useful?
* fabbione hugs concordia
<ogra> Burgundavia, opensourcegis was from you ?
<Burgundavia> ogra, found it by google
<ogra> Burgundavia, yay, its a great ressource, thanks :)
<Burgundavia> ogra, np
<Treenaks> how about postgis? or is that nonfree?
<Treenaks> ogra: http://postgis.refractions.net/
<ogra> no idea, put it on the list so we won forget to review it
<jbailey> I'm trying to guess the right thing here.  LSB want the ld.so to be named something special for LSB conforming systems.  Should glibc provide this, or should lsb/lsb-base?
<\sh> one more cigarette than a couple of hours of sleep and after that hard work will be done
<Mithrandir> where has the april calendar gone?
<Treenaks> ogra: look at http://postgis.refractions.net/
<xoxoxo> hello. i am writing a very small program in Hoary, compile and get the error. anybody please tell me what is the problem?
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: hoary-updates?
<xoxoxo> the program is 3 lines only:
<ogra> Treenaks, looks like its free at a first glance
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: it's there?
<xoxoxo> #include  <linux/ext3_fs.h>
<xoxoxo> int main()
<xoxoxo> { return 0; }
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: it's in the pool
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: I don't know about packages files
<xoxoxo> and here are first few errors i got:
<xoxoxo> In file included from /usr/include/linux/ext3_fs.h:20,
<xoxoxo>                  from test.c:1:
<xoxoxo> /usr/include/linux/ext3_fs_i.h:73: error: field `xattr_sem' has incomplete type
<xoxoxo> /usr/include/linux/ext3_fs_i.h:80: error: field `i_orphan' has incomplete type
<xoxoxo> /usr/include/linux/ext3_fs_i.h:109: error: field `truncate_sem' has incomplete type
<xoxoxo> /usr/include/linux/ext3_fs_i.h:110: error: field `vfs_inode' has incomplete type
<xoxoxo> i have no idea why ext3_fs.h doesnt include in everything it needs???
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: it's in updates.
<Mithrandir> xoxoxo: you shouldn't be inkluding kernel headers from userspace.
<xoxoxo> Mithrandir, is that a kernel header?
<xoxoxo> so what is the header files for ext3 dev?
<xoxoxo> for ext2, it is e2fslibs-dev
<xoxoxo> but i cannot find what is for ext3
<Mithrandir> ext2 and ext3 share the same on-disk format, more or less.
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: you probably can use the ext2 library
<Lathiat> thats not the header you want
<xoxoxo> ok, so if i want to access to this struct: struct ext3_super_block
<xoxoxo> which header file do i need?
<xoxoxo> i found only ext3_fs.h declares that struct. but if that is for kernel, which is for userland?
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: As Mithrandir and myself said, you can simply use the ext2 library
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: what are you tryign to do
<Burgundavia> Treenaks, you are working on that gps software, no?
<xoxoxo> Lathiat, but what if i need ext3_super_block? that is different from ext2_super_block
<xoxoxo> so i cannot use <ext2/ext2_fs.h>
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: well, not  really actively
<Lathiat> who says you need ext3_super_block
<Burgundavia> Treenaks, ok
<xoxoxo> i am looking for smt like <ext3/ext3_fs.h>
<xoxoxo> but dont see anything like that
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: but I
<Mithrandir> there probably isn't any userspace library providing what you want, then.
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: I'm repackaging gpsd, and trying to create a sane, small "you're here" GPS app
<xoxoxo> Lathiat, i meant ext3 is not same as ext2. so the super block are different
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: (all I need to do is find out how to set a timeout in GTK+, and I'm set ;))
<Lathiat> yes ext2 and ext3 are more or less the same, you can mount and use an ext3 filesystem as ext2 fine.
<xoxoxo> so it is necessary to have separate header for ext3 for userland, rite?
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: (oh, and a nice interface, too)
<xoxoxo> ext2 and ext3 are pretty same, but there are some difference. like ext3 has some fields concerning journal. 
<xoxoxo> so i cannot use ext2 struct for ext3, can i?
<ogra> Treenaks, gobject.timeout_add(1000, lambda: gtk.main_quit())
<xoxoxo> i want to write a program in userland, to access ext3 file system.
<mvirkkil> mako_: Any eta for shipping the CDs?
<ogra> Treenaks, replace gtk.main_quit() as you like and adjust the 1000ms value
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: ext2libs will allow you to do that perfectly fine.
<ogra> Treenaks, (you need to import gobject though)
<ogra> s/though/too
<xoxoxo> Lathiat, i am checking again ext2_fs.h. how come struct ext2_super_bloc has some fields concerning journal info?
<xoxoxo> that confused me!
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: it has been updated to parse ext3 as well.
<Zomb> what is the Ubuntu policy for minor updates? Any chance for vim 1:6.3-068+4 in hoary?
<xoxoxo> Lathiat, i am looking at ext2fs/ext2_fs.h. the struct ext2_super_block includes journal information that is only available for ext3. i dont see how ext2 and ext3 can share the same struct this way? 
<lamont> Zomb: hoary is like, closed.
<lamont> Zomb: there's a page on the wiki about criteria for something going into -updates and -security, but can't remember the exact page right now
<Kamion> Zomb: policy for hoary's pretty much like policy for Debian stable
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: in ext2 the journal information would be blank.
<Kamion> Zomb: there's a lot of stuff in vim 1:6.3-068+4, and it wouldn't be appropriate to take it all (the kvim removal wouldn't be appropriate for a stable release, for instance). Is there anything particularly serious (data loss, say) you think we should take?
<Zomb> ah, okay, thank you
<xoxoxo> Lathiat, yes that is what i expect also. but the way they declare the struct doesnt go that way. very strange!
<Kamion>        vim | 1:6.3-68+4ubuntu1 |        breezy | source
<Kamion> meh!
<Zomb> there is a nasty bug with vim and Hoary's curses (screen terminfo), it does not accept ^? as Backspace
<Kamion> who merged that?
<Zomb> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/ongoing-merge/vim/REPORT ?
<xoxoxo> i expect some #if EXT3... #else... in the body of the struct, but there is no such 
<ogra> Kamion, dainels afaik
<Kamion> daniels: you *so* need to be more careful with version numbers
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: that wouldn't work.
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: because its a runtime thing
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: the journal information would simply be blank in the structure.
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: this isn't the right place for this discussion.
<Kamion> hm, although it's not too bad actually
<Kamion> $ dpkg --compare-versions 6.3-68+4 lt 6.3-069+1 && echo yes
<Kamion> yes
<Keybuk> it'd compare numerically
<Keybuk> so that's actually equal
<Kamion> hah, ok
<Keybuk> syndicate scott% dpkg --compare-versions 1:6.3-068+4ubuntu1 eq 1:6.3-68+4ubuntu1 && echo yes
<Keybuk> yes
<Kamion> scared me for a bit though
<xoxoxo> Lathiat, ah so ext2 was extended, and have some unused fields which are just for ext3 to store smt. i see. thank you for this discussion
<Keybuk> but yes, care should be taken
<Kamion> Zomb: I can't find that in the changelog; but if you could file a bug with just the patch that fixes that, we could consider it for -updates
<Lathiat> xoxoxo: no problem. in future another channel would be better, this channel is designed for discussions about the development of ubuntu itself.
<Zomb> Kamion: okay, let me experiment with nobse's svn
<Kamion> ta
<xoxoxo> Lathiat, i am sorry. since i thought that there might be some errors in ubuntu header files, so i came here to ask, and report if that is the actual bug. my mistake. thank you again. 
<Zomb> interesting. I think that after the screen upgrade and screen restart, the problem
<Zomb> is gone
<mdz> how is breezy looking looking this morning?
<fabbione> full of new code? :)
<Kamion> like a big fat shedload of build logs
<mdz> hmm, kvim is gone
<fabbione> dropped from the debian maintainer
<mdz> I suppose the kubuntu seeds should be updated
<mdz> yep
<fabbione> i read that in his blog
* fabbione needs a little break
<mdz> oh, it isn't there anyway
<mdz> kde-extras depends on it, that'll need to be fixed instead
<Kamion> debootstrap wants to add libatm1 and libreadline5 to base?
<mdz> I wonder if that's one of those add-dependency-rather-than-change-seeds dependencies
* Kamion would kind of like to kill libreadline4 as well as adding libreadline5
<mdz> Kamion: why libatm1?
<mdz> Kamion: agreed, re: libreadline4
<mdz> it would also be nice to standardize on one libpcap in base
<Kamion> libatm1> iproute
<mdz> ah, iproute
<mdz> I guess that's OK
<mdz> it's in ship currently
<zyga> back
<mdz> lamont: any intereseting failures?
<KaiL> I've found more or less the same bug in now 3, maybe more packages
<shaya> so anyone chuckle at the ubuntu/msn logo comparison? 
<KaiL> every package which *should* contain a browser plugin is deadly broken (tried gcjwebplugin, flashplayer-mozilla and kaffeine-mozilla)!
<lamont> mdz: checking
<mako_> mvirkkil: hey dude.. should start shipping late this week or early next
<mvirkkil> mako: Cool. Thanks :-)
<mdz> where is ia64 now?  I need to update ubuntu-meta with the new URL
<Kamion> mdz: I asked the same question for debootstrap earlier ...
<Kamion> I thought we were just removing ia64 from hoary, not breezy?
<mdz> I can just disable it for now
<Kamion> elmo: ?
<lamont> mdz: it's on ports.ubuntu.com, once elmo creates it
<mdz> Kamion: unless it's a target for breezy (of which I've received no indication), the current approach is correct
<Kamion> mkay
<zyga> hey
<zyga> I'm currently writing CD image do disk
<zyga> and the CPU usage is at 100%
<zyga> top 
<zyga> shows 20% in system 20% in user and over 40% in high?
<mvo> zyga: do you have dma enbaled on your cd-burner?
<zyga> mvo: checking
<zyga> arh...
<zyga> no I don't
<zyga> of course I didn't think of that 
<zyga> thanks :)
* ogra wonders if possibly a settings tab in hal-device-manager could offer things like DMA as a checkbox....
<zyga> hmm
<zyga> I had to kill gnome-cd 
<zyga> It ate 99% of CPU soon after I ejected the CD
<ogra> zyga, youre tryig to write a iso from an audio disk ? 
<zyga> ogra: yes
<ogra> thats not possible
<zyga> ogra: ???
<ogra> audio disks dont use the iso format
<ross> the good news is that g2.12 i believe can copy cds magically
<ogra> you can only rip the tracks....and write them back to a empty cd
<ross> $ cdrdao copy --device /dev/cdrom --with-cddb -n -v 1
<zyga> ogra: well but you CAN make bit-to-bit copy, right?
<ross> will copy an audio cd
<ross> and even add cd text to the disk
<zyga> heh
<zyga> actually it's my dad that has this problem
<zyga> he uses k3b
<zyga> (I'm not sure what k3b uses under the hood)
<zyga> I'd probably use dd :P
<ross> i have a button which launches that cdrdao in a terminal
<ups> is fstab-sync used in ubuntu?
<ogra> zyga, creating an image from a audio disk simply isnt possible, ross solution sounds like the best approach...
<zyga> ogra: dma checkbox would be great but dangerous
<ogra> ups, luckily not
<ups> ogra: it's not safe?
<zyga> ogra: I have a slackware box around
<ogra> zyga, you can set such values only as root, so i dont consider it to dangerous, since you have to give the admin PW
<zyga> ogra: and 4 hdds inside
<ogra> ups, it assigns ill names to the drives
<mvo> ross: cool!
<zyga> ogra: one drive is a 37GB sata raptor 
<zyga> ogra: setting multicount above 8 kills the system :/
<zyga> ogra: slackware uses 2.4 kernel, true
<ups> ogra: ok, thx for the info
<zyga> ogra: but I've had other strange experiences with that
<ogra> zyga, fro now i'm only thinking about often used standard options like DMA that wont kill the data right away :)
<zyga> ogra: for example setting up one drive fails unless it's the last one to be configured
<zyga> ogra: what happens when I do: dd if=/dev/cdrom of=cd-audio-bits
<ross> zyga: doesn't work
<zyga> ross: really?
<zyga> hmm :-)
<ross> yeah, pretty sure
* zyga is totally suprised
<ogra> might work technically....butall you get is a broken file in the end
<zyga> ogra: broken by not being iso or broken by being similar do cat /dev/random/
<ogra> zyga, broken by, you cant do anything with it....
<ogra> zyga, (the dd might not even work, that was only an assumption)
* zyga verifies and remains suprised :)
<zyga> why can't the kernell read audio cd's just like blobs of bits
<zyga> s/ll/l
<ogra> zyga, because you didnt write the module for that yet ;)
<Lathiat> lathiat@archer:~$ gaim
<Lathiat> gaim: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/libaspell.so.15: undefined symbol: _Znwj
<zyga> ogra: I've got two 'kernel hacking' books on my shelf ;] 
<Lathiat> hrm :\ needs rebuild?
<Lathiat> i noticed an aspell upgrade cam ethrough in my updates
<ogra> Lathiat, ??
<fabbione> guys.. if that's breezy.. give the buildd time to crunch 2500 pkgs :)
<ogra> Lathiat, the first build isnt even finished
<ups> ogra: my swap partition shows the fstype as an empty string in hal-d-m, is there any other way i can determine if the partition is swap via hal?
<Lathiat> ogra: of what?
<Kamion> Lathiat: THE WORLD
<zyga> ogra, ross: what does cdrdao does under the hood?
<mutek> Hello World!
<lamont> mdz: bash is interesting
<Lathiat> just interesting the aspell would go into the archives when stuff depending on it hasnt been rebuilt ?
<ogra> ups, nope, not in hal....
<ross> zyga: lots and lots of ioctls and stuff
<zyga> I assume it must be setuid to work since it must be doing something the kernel does not do yet
<ogra> ups, but thats an improvement i'd like to introduce in breezy
<ups> ogra: hmm... and it is normal to have an empty string?
<Kamion> Lathiat: there was an aspell transition in Debian recently, there may be some work to do in order to follow it
<ogra> ups, for swap ? yes
<Kamion> dunno
<lamont> Unpacking python2.4 (from .../python2.4_2.4.1-1_amd64.deb) ...
<lamont> dpkg: error processing /home/buildd/build-breezy/chroot-breezy/var/cache/apt/archives/python2.4_2.4.1-1_amd64.deb (--unpack):
<lamont>  trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/python2.4/ConfigParser.py', which is also in package python2.4-minimal
<lamont> oops
<Lathiat> Kamion: ah
<Lathiat> Kamion: hrm bugger, means gaim is useless atm :(
<ups> ogra: yes, ok
<Lathiat> wonder if i can get the old version
<ups> ogra: is there any other way to identify swap currently? perhaps grep /etc/fstab?
<ogra> Lathiat, there will certainly break more stuff the next weeks...
<Lathiat> ogra: indeed
<ogra> ups, yep
<zyga> ups: yes
<ogra> ups, or swapon -s
<Kamion> Lathiat: don't use breezy if you want stuff to work
<lamont> mdz: probably the most interesting thing is that gcj is uninstallable, and g77 appears to be in the same boat
<Lathiat> Kamion: yuh.
<ups> ogra: cool, that's better :)
<Kamion> Lathiat: this sort of thing WILL happen until upstream version freeze at least
<Lathiat> i just thought stuff didn't go in until stuff that depended on it was rebuilt, thats all
<lamont> Lathiat: not at all
<Kamion> we want people to test breezy, but we don't want to be responsible for production systems breaking when we haven't declared it ready for that
<Kamion> Lathiat: not that simple by a long shot
<Lathiat> i guess i was wrong
<Kamion> yup
<lamont> Lathiat: the biggest issue right now is that all the stuff that we touched in hoary needs work before uploading, while everything we didn't touch just moves right in...
<Lathiat> lamont: right
<Lathiat> my bad :)
<ups> ogra: thanks for the tip :)
<ogra> :)
<zyga> hmm
<zyga> gnome-cd eats whole cpu 
<zyga> it happens on dad's box but not on my laptop
<zyga> something was really wrong
<zyga> it was not like normal 100% usage - it was totally unresponsive (mouse pointer stuck)
<opi> zyga, it happend to me too, yest. I even mention it on ubuntu-pl
<opi> zyga, Gnome died when I put CD while loading Metacity and the rest
<opi> zyga, I'll try it again, today and if it will occur, I'll file a bug
<zyga> opi: nothing died here but it was pretty much frozen
<opi> zyga, I gave up after 60 seconds
<opi> or so
<zyga> opi: recompile it with debug and check what it's doing
<zyga> (or simply check without recompile - maybe it's obvious)
<zyga> what is this HI thing that top shows?
<zyga> Cpu(s):  3.3% us,  7.2% sy,  0.0% ni,  0.0% id,  3.3% wa, 86.1% hi,  0.0% si
<zyga> the only running process now is readcd
<opi> the problem was, I couldn't switch to the virtual console
<opi> everything stuck
<zyga> opi: same here
<zyga> opi: the box is a crappy sempron
<opi> mine's crappy Celeron ;>
<zyga> opi: it actually does switch to virtual console after a while ;] 
<zyga> heh, yet another advantage of amd over intel ;-)
<opi> ;-)
<opi> it's not even mine
<opi> I bought it for my sister
<opi> put Ubuntu on it, but I have no time to carry it to my family home
<opi> so I'm using it from time to time 
<lamont> checking whether the C++ compiler (g++-4.0 -O2 -DDEBIAN ) works... no
<lamont> configure: error: installation or configuration problem: C++ compiler cannot create executables.
* lamont points figures at mozilla and laughs
<zyga> opi: sempron belongs to my dat - very similar setup :-)
<zyga> lamont: /
<zyga> lamont: ?
<lamont> zyga: is FTBFS
<lamont> which is to say that configure is busticated
<ogra> lamont, i thought g++-4.0 was postponed by doko....
<opi> OK, I'm going home
<opi> bbl
<zyga> lamont: that Frustrating Technical Bullshit From Space ;-) ?
<lamont> ogra: yeah - was.... interesting
<zyga> lamont: ;-)
<ogra> heh
<lamont> fails to build from source
<zyga> lamont: ah :)
<GheRivero> res
<lamont> zyga: amusingly, debian/rules invokes g++-4.0, but fails to cause it to be installed... :)
<nanomad> is safe to dist-upgrade to breeze today or there are important pkgs broken?
<ogra> nanomad, its not safe to upgrade to breezy the next 6-8 weeks i would assume
<nanomad> ok
<nanomad> thx
<ogra> but if you like breakage, its up to you 
* ogra wonders if his client is broken or if #ubuntu-devel really has no topic...
<Burgundavia> ogra, I see a topic
<zyga> how to play audio cds in xmms?
<ogra> hmm
<zyga> gnome-cd keeps failing
<ups> ogra: there is a topic set
<zyga> 'disk error' or something
<zyga> the same stuff works on laptop with identical setup
<ogra> i see the topic in the tooltip, but not in the entry field.... interesting
<ogra> ahh
<ogra> better
<nanomad> will install it in 2nd partiton and do some bug-huntig
<lamont> ups: that's really a #ubuntu question
<lamont> ups: and on the FAQ, iirc
<lamont> mdz: I'll get bugs filed for all the FTBFS sometime before the weekend is over.
<ups> lamont: sorry, i was writing a little program and got stuck. i'll keep in mind next time
<zyga> hmm
<zyga> okay there's a bug in gnome-cd or in ubuntu in general
<zyga> gnome-cd, by default uses /dev/cdrom
<zyga> but that was not created on my dad's box
<zyga> neither was on mine
<zyga> so what should be done?
<zyga> creating /dev/cdrom is an easy fix
* mvo is away for a bit, bbl 
<zyga> (but not really correct since it breaks when we have more than one cd drive)
<mdz> does anyone here have bluetooth hardware?  if so, please look at #8954
<ogra> mdz, dholbach....
<ogra> mdz, i'll poke him if he's around again
<mdz> ogra: I added him to CC on the bug
<ogra> great
<zyga> does anyone know Frank Lichtenheld
<ska-fan> Hey! Put the search bar back on every page! :)
<toresbe> mdz: I have access to it, I think...
<ogra> zyga, thats the guy who built packages.ubuntu.com
<zyga> ogra: he is marked as the maintainter of eject
<zyga> eject is b0rken and after inspecting the source I wanted to contribute
<kent> zyga, in what way is it borked? 
<Kamion> file bugs in the Debian BTS to contact him about eject, I should think
<zyga> kent: it has some bugs open 
<zyga> kent: and the source code could be refreshed a little
<Kamion> every non-trivial package has bugs. :)
<Kamion> (may not be exactly true, but near enough)
<zyga> kent: one nasty bug is that it fails to eject cd as normal user after ripping
<zyga> kent: really... looking at the source code made me shrug ;] 
<zyga> i think it was supposed to work on deatstar9000 or something
<zyga> deathstar even ;] 
<kent> zyga, deathstar9000?  Sounds like star wars?
<Keybuk> mdz: do you want the bugs on yet?
<mdz> Keybuk: how bad is it?
<zyga> kent: sounds like comp.lang.c
<Keybuk> <------------------------------------->
<Keybuk> (* not to scale)
<Mithrandir> evil
<mdz> is that thumb-and-forefinger or arms
<mdz> arms-wide?
<Keybuk> 500 exactly
<Keybuk> (packages needing merge)
<zyga> i think eject was supposed to work on windows 
<kent> zyga, what is deathstar*?
<zyga> kent: it's a hypothetical machine that destroys the world when it encounders common c piftals AFAIR 
<zyga> :-)
<mdz> Keybuk: I've added a 'merge' keyword, please use that when filing the bugs
<mdz> and fire away
<zyga> like undefined behavior and such
* Keybuk wonders how to do that
<mdz> Keybuk: you aren't using bugzilla.py?
<Mithrandir> erm, we have 500 packages needing merge?  Sounds a bit over-the-top?
<mdz> sounds about right to me
<Keybuk> ah, keywords="merge ?
<Keybuk> that doesn't seem to get sent in the form
<mdz> hm, probably should be
<Keybuk> do you have an updated bugzilla.py anywhere?
<mdz> Keybuk: it's part of debzilla
<mdz> matt.zimmerman@canonical.com--2004/debzilla--mainline--0
* lamont does the gcc-4.0 bootstrap dance on ia64
<Keybuk> where did you move your archive to?
<mdz> Keybuk: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/archives/
<Keybuk> got it
<mdz> Keybuk: please also use status='NEW', since we're defaulting to UNCONFIRMED now
<zyga> ogra: does he lurk here?
<ogra> zyga, dunno... but his mailaddress should be in the changelog
<Keybuk> yeah, my bugzilla.py hard-codes status=NEW anyway
<lamont> MOM is waking up?
<lamont> cool
<Keybuk> I had to modify it a bit to strip all the database-fu
<ogra> lamont, they sleep ? 
* ogra wishes MOTU had such a luxury life
<lamont> ogra: Merge-O-Matic
<lamont> ogra: aka 'Keybuk's mom'
<ogra> lamont, ah, i thought Masters Of Main *g*
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> just cleaning up rookery atm, then it'll run
<lamont> jbailey: btw, add ia64 to your long long list
<lamont> Kamion: around?
<Kamion> lamont: yep
* Keybuk wonders how much of open's traffic he's responsible for
<lamont> Kamion: ~buildd/livecd/base/current/livecd.base.cloop present x3, ia64 should be shortly as well.
<lamont> Kamion: once it's on cdimage, let me know and I'll go update the wiki
<lamont> er - that's a breezy base, btw?
<lamont> s/?/!/
<lamont> although I could make you a hoary base.cloop if you think it would be good
<lamont> hrm.. probably should
<lamont> thoughts?
<Keybuk> *giggle* mom failed because I changed my Bugzilla login
<lamont> Keybuk: mom knows all your secrets, eh?
<ogra> good to know ;)
<Keybuk> ok, let's try that again
<Keybuk>  * Filing bug
<Keybuk>    - Created bug 9233
<Keybuk> \o/
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Keybuk] : Ubuntu Development | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-love for getting involved | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DeveloperResources | Ubuntu 5.04 is released!  http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2005-April/000023.html | MOM is awake!
<lamont> everytime I boot a CD, I become more convinced that we need a "I feel lucky" option for language
<zyga> what is MOM really?
<crimsun> masters of main?
<lamont> zyga: merge-o-matic
<crimsun> ah, merge
* zyga googles for merge-o-matic
<Keybuk> zyga: merge-o-matic
<lamont> it takes packages from main, and ubuntu, and smashes them together to make new packages for main.
<lamont> s/main/ubuntu/
* ogra applauds Keybuk for waking up his mom
<zyga> together?
<Keybuk> yeaah
<lamont> zyga: yeah...
<Keybuk> where we haven't changed packages, it's easy, we just sync them from Debian
<zyga> lamont: xorg.deb and xfree86.deb ;-) ?
<lamont> zyga: no\
<Keybuk> but where we've changed them, and Debian have too, we have to do a merge of both sets of changes to try and make a new one
<lamont> same package, diff versions
<lamont> zyga: and source packages, not binaries, you silly.
<zyga> lamont: /me is still learing many things here ;-)
<lamont> heh
<Kamion> lamont: none of the CD cron jobs are running at the moment - I've made a note for when they start
<lamont> Kamion: cool.  do we want to turn on the rootfs builds yet?
<lamont> Kamion: I'm thinking it makes sense (as in why we did base.cloop) to build one for hoary and publish that alongside the already-published hoary isos.  thoughts?
* zyga -> pool
<Kamion> lamont: that'd be fine by me - could do that without turning on the cron jobs
<Kamion> lamont: you can turn on rootfs builds if you like, but I'm betting they'll fail a LOT :)
<lamont> hehe
<lamont> Kamion: but now I have an automatic pruneing script. :-)
<lamont> and it leaves the last successful (and unsuccessful) run alone, regardless of age
<lamont> seb128: around?
* lamont wonders if seb128 even wants bugs filed on the ftbfs gnome stuff yet, or if he's just all over it anyway
<seb128> lamont: if that's quick to do for you, please bug so I've them on my list even without searching
<lamont> seb128: no problem
<lamont> won't happen for 10-30 hours, but I'll do them
<seb128> thanks
<lamont> if you're in a hurry before then, people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/byDate/today.html has them in red...
<seb128> nice, thanks
<bluefoxicy> http://www.enotalone.com/books/0596000081.html
<bluefoxicy> can anyone open that in firefox?
<bluefoxicy> (warning:  browser will crash)
<bluefoxicy> I tried like 40 times :(
<bluefoxicy> if anyone can confirm it can be reproduced, I'll file a bug.
<ogra> worksforme
<bluefoxicy> ogra:  works for you == your firefox doesn't blow out?
<ogra> yep
<ogra> linux devuce drivers v2
<bluefoxicy> hmm.  k, I'll just ignore it then.
<ogra> device even
<mrimbert> bluefoxicy, works for me too
<bluefoxicy> heh.  oh well, no big deal
<bluefoxicy> I've got session saver, hence when my browser crashes I just bring it back up and it's wherever I left it :)
<mrimbert> Hello ogra :)
<ogra> i tritium *g*
<ogra> hi even
<mrimbert> :)
<bluefoxicy> what, dating in a Linux channel?  :P
<\sh> *yawn* 
<ogra> \sh, up early ?
<\sh> ogra: i told you only a couple of hours ;)
<\sh> now i need a coffee :)
<tritium> ogra, any news on the CC meeting reschedule?
<ogra> nope...not for me
<bluefoxicy> is the breezy repo open yet?
<Burgundavia> bluefoxicy, yp
<bluefoxicy> or wait, actually
<bluefoxicy> oh, it is?  Where?
<Burgundavia> just change your sources
<Burgundavia> like last time
<bluefoxicy> I'd like to see if I can get a hold of AbiWord 2.2.7 (latest release), as 2.2.2 is producing fucked ps/pdf
<Burgundavia> and probably next time
<bluefoxicy> Burgundavia:  heh, true.  I meant more where is the announcement ;)
<Kamion>    abiword | 2.2.2-1ubuntu2 |   breezy/main | source
<Kamion> bluefoxicy: ubuntu-devel@
<Burgundavia> bluefoxicy, ubuntu-devel has it
<bluefoxicy> Kamion:  oh damn.  Mayhaps sid has a deb I can yank :)
<Kamion> yes, it needs to be merged to breezy
<Kamion>    abiword |    2.2.7-2 |      unstable | source, alpha, hppa, i386, ia64, m68k, mips, mipsel, powerpc, sparc
<Kamion> mdz: I've just implemented all the bits of debconf-copydb I think we need
<bluefoxicy> Kamion:  cool.  I'll check packages.apt or wherever (google is like, awesome for this) and see if I can pick off the deb.
<Kamion> is it bad form to kill off AwfulHacks before we have the BOF about them? :)
<bluefoxicy> Kamion:  what was debian's package site?  google keeps giving me lists.debian.org when I search for i.e. "deb package abiword"
<Kamion> packages.debian.org
<bluefoxicy> thanks.
<lamont> bluefoxicy: Message-ID: <20050413020427.GJ20485@alcor.net>
<lamont> Subject: Breezy suite now open for business
<lamont> bluefoxicy: mind you, it's horribly broken atm
<Keybuk> IOError: [Errno socket error]  (110, 'Connection timed out')
<Keybuk> boo, hiss @ snapshot.dn
<bluefoxicy> lamont:  I know, I only wanted to rip abiword
<bluefoxicy> lamont:  I won't transition to breezy for a month or two yet :)
<lamont> bluefoxicy: yeah, and since we changed it, it's not there
<bluefoxicy> bah
<bluefoxicy> it's still doing it.
<bluefoxicy> something like 3 oo.o2 packages made amd64 hoary, though I think they all made x86 hoary.  . . . and beh.  Same with breezy.
<bluefoxicy> I hate OOo, but OOo2 is notably better UI-wise.
<shaya> the new aspell in breezy broke gaim
<shaya> gaim: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/libaspell.so.15: undefined symbol: _Znwj
<zul> holy crap..mom is going to busy
<Keybuk> she's pretty fast, up to 'g' already
<shaya> what's "mom"
<shaya> auto builder?
<zul> heh i was just looking at bugzilla
* bluefoxicy rolls his eyes as OOo butchers an RTF document -- no formatting, most of the images except 1 are gone.  The same RTF loooks fine when re-openned by AbiWord.
<jbailey> shaya: aspell has c++ bits that it compiles with gcc.
<bluefoxicy> why do i even bother
<shaya> jbailey: so should I file a bug?
<shaya> or is this a "known" problem
<Keybuk> shaya: merge-o-matic
<shaya> would a recompile of gaim fix it?
<\sh> Riddell: ping
<jbailey> shaya: I saw it float by on u-devel with the usual response of "please use bugzilla for this", but I haven't tracked it beyond that.
<Riddell> \sh: yo
<shaya> damn, gaim had huge amount of build-deps
<\sh> Riddell: i think theres something wrong with the debootstrap howto on the wikki
<\sh> Riddell: or is it purpose that u can't sudo anymore in the chroot env?
<\sh> gaim is broken for the jabber part ;)
<Riddell> \sh: well you would need to install sudo
<\sh> Riddell: sudo is installed :)
<Riddell> \sh: but I just chroot (not dchroot) and do everything as root anyway
<Riddell> \sh: is sudoers set up?
<\sh> Riddell: but the sudoers is wrong after setting up :)
<Riddell> that'll be it then
<\sh> the %admin users are missing ;)
<\sh> can I add "sudo cp /etc/sudoers /var/chroot/etc/" to you howto?
<\sh> your even
<Kamion> probably better to suggest setting it up properly
<Kamion> 'dpkg-reconfigure passwd' should do it, I'd've though
<Kamion> thought
<Kamion> (in the chroot)
<jbailey> lamont: Thanks.  Are we still building ia64?
<\sh> Kamion: well...let me figure it out...i will go through it again
<shaya> ugh
<shaya> can't even compile agains tnew aspell
<Riddell> anyone else getting the 12:15 flight from Heathrow tomorrow?
<lamont> jbailey: building gcc-4.0 now
<ogra> Riddell, tomorrow already ?
<lamont> mind you, no pulished archive for it today... :-(
<lamont> published, even
<jbailey> lamont: 'kay.  Lemme quickly apply some lkh love.
* lamont considers throwing the phrase 'canonical hostname' into the 'Semantics' thread on u-u.. maybe better to just ignore it
<lamont> g-spitbo.adb: In function 'GNAT.SPITBOL.S':
<lamont> g-spitbo.adb:263: error: unrecognizable insn:
<lamont> (insn 139 26 27 1 g-spitbo.adb:252 (set (reg:SI 107)
* lamont pukes
<Riddell> ogra: yep
<ogra> Riddell, envy....
<Riddell> ogra: I'll think about you when I'm busy surfing
<ogra> Riddell, i'll have a saturday night flight
<ogra> :)
<\sh> and my ex-wife's stucked in ZA
<\sh> she should came back on the 7th
<\sh> than one flight company went bankrupt
<Mithrandir> ew, sounds bad
<\sh> next flight schedule for the 13th..and now 25th direct flight with BA
<\sh> well finally she's with her family there
<Mithrandir> oh, that helps
<\sh> hope that I can go back to ZA next year
<jbailey> lamont: I only see asm-parisc.  You guys don't have separate parisc64 headers, or is that work not yet merged?
<lamont> no separate headers
<seb128> elmo: gnome-backgrounds glib2.0 eel2 libgtop2 nautilus-cd-burner gnome-games syncs from experimental please
<jbailey> That's nice and civilised.
<lamont> jbailey: userspace is 32-only
<jbailey> lamont: Eh?  I thought I remember Carlos talking about the annoyances of getting gcc to do biarch for hppa at some point.
<jbailey> lamont: Or is that another tree he has hidden somewhere that he's waiting to spring on you? =)
<\sh> Add Wiki Page "HowToBuildDebianPackagesFromScratch"
<lamont> jbailey: that's something people have been playing with, but hasn't entered mainstream yet...
<lamont> mind you, there is a gcc-3.3-hppa64, and binutils to go with it...
<lamont> biarch might make that a bit easier...
<lamont> (currently only used for kernel compiles)
<jbailey> Probably.  Is a500 ppc64?
<lamont> jbailey: no, it's parisc64. :-)
<jbailey> *lol* Yeah.  I guess the ppc64 is the box sitting beside it. =)
* lamont must lunch and run several errands...
<lamont> anything before I flee?
<jbailey> lamont: But some evening when I get some spare time, I can try cookiung up a biarch toolchain for you.
<jbailey> Not from me. 
<lamont> I think I'm going to wind up giving gcc-4.0/hppa an ada-ectomy before it builds
<jbailey> lamont: I'll have lkh for you shortly.  Just uploading it enough?
<jbailey> +Is
<lamont> yeah
<jbailey> Luvly.
<mjg59> jbailey: You LCAing, or just UDU?
<Kamion> night folks
<ogra> night Kamion 
<jbailey> mjg59: Just UDU.
<mjg59> Ah, shame
<mjg59> I'll be seeing you in a bit over a week, then
<fabbione> jbailey: with the new toolchain, do i need to build glibc with gcc-4 or still with the old one?
<jbailey> I'm hoping to get to OLS and GCC summit, though.
<jbailey> fabbione: glibc will not build with gcc-4.
<fabbione> (yeah sparc is still building gcc-4)
<fabbione> jbailey: will it switch automatically or do i need to wait to install gcc-4 in the chroot?
<fabbione> jbailey: because once gcc-defaults is in...
<jbailey> fabbione: Err...  Switch to what?
<jbailey> Oh, hmm. 
<jbailey> Excellent question.  I wonder if we just take the default gcc.
<jbailey> I think we might, and in that case the build will puke.
<fabbione> the actuall bootstrap sequence is l-k-h gcc-4 gcc-defaults glibc
<lamont> jbailey: if you don't hard code the version now, I'll file an FTBFS on you
<fabbione> lamont: did you install the packages straight away or all the end of their builds?
<lamont> fabbione: as they built, I smacked them in
<fabbione> so glibc did build with gcc-4 installed... right?
<jbailey> My bad.  Hardcoded gcc-3.3
<fabbione> oh ok
<fabbione> than i feel better :)
<lamont> fabbione: yes
<fabbione> lamont: thanks
* lamont gets information from the power utility on time-of-use metering
<jbailey> I should check with doko about moving the builds to all gcc-3.4.  IIRC it has to be kept because of fortran for now, but we might be able to bump the minimumn build-dep up to that for now to make it easier to get rid of gcc-3.3
<fabbione> jbailey: is it worth to do it in 2 steps?
<fabbione> instead of killing 3.X in one go?
<jbailey> fabbione: No, and I remember now that there's a bug in gcc-3.4 that causes an ICE when debug is enabled on gcc-3.4
<mdz> Keybuk: argh, you filed bugs for universe?
<fabbione> jbailey: so let's kill gcc-3.4 :)
<jbailey> fabbione: When 4.0 actually releases, I think the glibc folks will probably come out with a version with the patches applied to me it work.  It's a stated goal.
<fabbione> jbailey: ok :)
<Keybuk> mdz: yes, why?
<mdz> Keybuk: please suppress the bugs for universe going forward
<Keybuk> don't we want them anymore?
<mdz> universe and bugzilla do not mix
<mdz> Keybuk: if you want to have it file bugs in Malone, great, but not bugzilla
<Keybuk> ah ok
<Keybuk> yeah, can make that modification
<Keybuk> will send a mail to bradb for instructions
<\sh> hmmm...anchors are not enabled on the ubuntu wiki?
<\sh> dpkg-reconfigure password is missing in the debootstrap howto and a sudo /etc/sudoers /var/chroot/etc/
<\sh> Riddell: u mind if I add it to the wiki page?
<Riddell> \sh: please do
<\sh> Riddell: thx
<\sh> Riddell: done
<vincent_> Please ignore, just testing... first time IRC user...
<\sh> and this in a second time IRC user channel...damned ;)
<\sh> please join #test for autoresponding to test messages ;->
<vincent_> #test ? h sorry, Oli didn't tell me aobut that one... will check...sorry for wasting BW..
<kent> vincent_, haha, you dont waste much BW :)
<\sh> lol
<\sh> I'm sometimes like bofh ;)
<\sh> vincent_: sorry, i mixed irc with usenet ;)
<vincent_> what's "bofh" ??
<kent> vincent_, bastard operator from hell.  Atleast i read that once..
<vincent_> "usenet" ? Please don't confuse me with new things, I have juuuuust managed to get on IRC, give me some time before ! ;o)
<vincent_> "bastard operator from hell" ? Ah, thanks, you live and learn... ;o)
<\sh> vincent_: and "usenet" is the real WWW ,->
<\sh> for old farts like me ;)
<\sh> hu...gentoo dev?
<vincent_> If even Gentoo looks into Ubuntu, it's quite flattering or ?
<\sh> vincent_: not for me ;) I'm a gentoo fan as well :)
<vincent_> Are there any common points between Ubuntu and Gentoo ? Just asking... never used Gentoo, only Mandrake 9.2 and Ubuntu...
<Burgundavia> vincent_, aside from the obivious?
<\sh> vincent_: Gentoo is a meta distribution 
<\sh> Gentoo has a package system more like BSD then .deb/.rpm based distributions
<\sh> Gentoo is for compiler geeks 
<\sh> what else
<vincent_> Yes, the only thing I gathered about Gentoo is that you mus compile everytinhg all the time, even the distor itself ? BUt other than this, any other common points with Ubuntu's "philosophy" ?
<\sh> vincent_: no u don't have to...there are also binary packages
<vincent_> And waht format do the binaries use ? Deb ? RPM ? 
<vasi> vincent, i believe they're just .tbz2
<\sh> well...i never bothered...the truth is, i really don't know...there is an option in portage where u can build rpms or something like that
<\sh> i never used it...i build all my servers from stage1 
<jnc> there is no central binary package repository that i know of
<jnc> for gentoo anywyas
<vincent_> Thanks for the Gentoo info boys...
<jnc> sure.  if you want more in-depth talk with gentoo folks try the forums (i don't go there i'm told they are nice though), #gentoo-bugs, and the gentoo-dev mailing list
<\sh> jnc: u will find the binary packages only on those package cds
<\sh> i informed myself now ;)
<jnc> i'm a sound dev for gentoo.  it's an interesting system, though i would rather depend on Ubuntu/debian/SuSE/slackware/OSX for a stable business desktop machine
<\sh> jnc: thats the reason why i switched from gentoo@laptop to (k)ubuntu@laptop
<jnc> gentoo on a laptop is asking for an an ass kicking
<jnc> i've done it.
<\sh> jnc: it's fun :) 
<jnc> key board eventually melted into the core structure of the machine
<\sh> jnc: I killed my laptop last time because of compiling gentoo ;)
<jnc> i gave up when the keys i use for my root password finally melted
<\sh> laptop stands directly in the sun and compiling glibc..that was too much 
<vincent_> Hmmm, Gentoo sounds like fun, I might try to compile it (if to get some hands on Linux experience), now that I have broadband and a CD writer and that hard disks are so cheap... I have got a Gentoo "guru" friend in the UK now I think of it, in case things go wrong...
<jnc> glibc?   i remember when glibc took the longest
<jnc> now we have kdelibs
<jnc> it's like, unf
<\sh> jnc: thats right ;)
<jnc> vincent_: Gentoo won't teach you all that much about linux.  it does have a number of games though, and the developer status is quite accessible
<vincent_> Gentoo killed your PC ??? :-O  Might stick with Ubuntu then... :-/
<jnc> i had debian on this lappy here
<jnc> actually, i _had_ ubnutu but it's got very little processing power
<jnc> so i stuck debian on it and did my own madwifi packages
<jnc> i'm sort of interested in helping out Ubuntu on a package mantaining level
<jnc> the trouble is time.   not enough time to do 6 projects and then outside sales
<ogra> geez, vincent_ is here
<ogra> hi vince :)
<jnc> :)
* jnc ambles back to work
<\sh> vincent_: finally it melted it, like vincent_ said ;) mainboard and cpu were burned and had to be replaced by HP staff
<vincent_> Guten Abne Oli !! Wie gehts ?? :-)
<vincent_> Abend, god I type too fast
<ogra> tres bien, merci :)
<vincent_> :o)))
<\sh> fulfill or fullfill dependencies?
<ogra> i think the first one....
<\sh> oh bonsoir vincent_ (sp?)
<\sh> comment ca va?
<vincent_> spelling is okay ;o)
<\sh> ( i knew my french is terrible ) ,-)
<vincent_> Spelling wrong : "" not "ca" ... ;o)
<zyga> anglais s'il vous plait [ or somethig ]  
<\sh> vincent_: well. i don't where my accents are on my laptop keyboard ;)
<\sh> so forgive me ;)
<vincent_> You are forgiven ;o)
<vincent_> That one of the things I like in English, no accents at all, it's way easier and faster to type/write than French...
<zyga> vincent_: that is true with every extended latin alphabet
<\sh> i had a 5- in french on my report 
<\sh> during my teenage times :)
<vincent_> zyga : yes probably, but I can only speak for my native language ;o)
<ajmitch_> morning
<vincent_> sh : is 5- a bad notation ? Notation system are different depending on countries..;
<\sh> ogra: do me a favour when u come back from .au
<zyga> I had french for four years but this is not really ubuntu-devel ;] 
<zyga> s/y u/y for u/
<ogra> \sh, which ?
<dholbach> hi
<ogra> vincent_, in germany 1 is the best, 6 is the worst you can get
<ogra> hi dholbach 
<dholbach> hey ogra 
<\sh> ogra: i need this funny sound stick.....what's it called. didgeridoo
<ogra> killed all viruses ?
<ogra> \sh, i dont know if i will go shopping at all.... lets see
<dholbach> ogra: me?
<dholbach> ogra: tomorrow *sigh deeply*
<\sh> ogra: hey, i need something for the boring times in the NOC...playing didgeridoo should be a nice change in NOC life ;)
<ogra> dholbach, oh, nice last job before a 22h flight :-/
<vincent_> Okay it's for Breezy dev, but not much going on until a few weeks I guess, so let's take it easy until things get more serious... ;o)
<dholbach> ogra: today i mowed around 42867278624768246km of lawn
<ajmitch_> ogra: you'll at least have some time to go shopping
<ajmitch_> ogra: I'm very glad my flight is only 3 hours :)
<ogra> ajmitch, but no money ;)
<ajmitch_> aha
<mvo> hey dholbach 
<dholbach> ogra: but i had a nice 13HP lawnmower :-)
<dholbach> hey mvo
<ogra> dholbach, thats very healthy....
<mvo> dholbach: did gardening :) ?
<ogra> dholbach, ...lots of fresh air etc ;)
<\sh> ogra: oh :) no money...ok, nevermind...don't by, I will follow the instructions on http://www.yedaki.de/
<\sh> "Didgeridoo selfmade-site, step by step tutorial with fotos for didgemaking, sandwich and drilling, sounds and gallery. Playing tutorial. Soundclips."
<dholbach> mvo, ogra: you have no idea...
<ogra> dholbach, you know my garden, i used to mow it by hand the last years ;)
<ogra> better then any gym
<dholbach> so where in the schedule do i put the MOTU-BOFs?
<ogra> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BOFs/UbuntuDownUnderSchedule
<dholbach> shall i add a 4th column? ;-p
<ogra> this one 
<dholbach> ogra: i know :-)
<ogra> i dont really get this schedule i must admit....
<ogra> looks like i have to do 4 hwdb bofs then.... :-/
<dholbach> ogra: me too, will look at it tomorrow, still too much to do
<vincent_> OBy, IRC is very difficult to manage, no threading, text scrolling too fast..  Enough for today, back to the mailing list... thanks everyone for the nice first experience...
<ogra> vincent_, yeah, thanks for dropping by....
<dholbach> vincent_: have a nice evening :-)
<ogra> vincent_, next time you should also havea look at #ubuntu-motu ;)
<vincent_> motu ? Hey, next you will want me to do some work on GIS ?? ;o)
<ogra> hehe
* ogra whistles very innocently
<\sh> vincent_: carefull, ogra is just like a H drug dealer...he's injecting some ubuntu drugs in your veins and than you're an ubuntu junkie, he did it with me too :)
<ogra> hehe
<ogra> dinner !
<dholbach> \sh: but admit it: it FEELS GOOD! :-)
<\sh> ogra: i had my dner and lamacun for today :)
<\sh> dholbach: yeah...i have an everyday high ... 
<ogra> \sh, oh, i thought you had a day off
<dholbach> :-)
<\sh> ogra: i have 6 days off 
<\sh> ogra: but cooking for myself ... u know I'm lazy...and my woman's gone :)
<\sh> ogra: so "volks dner" is my new kitchen ;)
<kent> ogra, 4 hwdb bofs? whats a bofs? :)
<dholbach> wiki.ubuntu.com/BOFs
<\sh> hmm...quite funny...I'll setup a chroot enviroment and finally  a pbuilder env inside..lets see if this is working
<GheRivero> res
<trulux> heya!
<cartel_> hey guys
<cartel_> is there a kernel-patch-ubuntu somewhere?
<dholbach> cartel_: i suggest you ask in #ubuntu-kernel, but my guess is  apt-get source <kernel-source-package> and inspect the diff.gz or debian/patches-dir
<elmo> seb128: ?
<seb128> elmo: what ?
<elmo> seb128: glib2.0 isn't in experimental and the others are all modified ok to override?
<seb128> ups, right for glib
<seb128> yep, I've updated them for debian and merged the changes
#ubuntu-devel 2005-04-26
<mvirkkil> Isn't lintian in hoary?
<dholbach> mvirkkil: it is
<mvirkkil> odd stuff happening..
<dholbach> mvirkkil: why that?
<mvirkkil> dholbach: It seems I had accidentally removed my entire package cache.
<dholbach> argl
<mvirkkil> cd foo
<mvirkkil> wrong window
<elmo> seb128: (done for !glib)
<seb128> elmo: thanks
<dholbach> i'm going to get my stuff together... have a nice time *wave*
<ogra> ciao dholbach 
<dholbach> bye ogra 
<mvo> mvirkkil: your status cache? with the information what you have installed?
<ogra> dholbach, will we see you tomorrow ? 
<seb128> 'night guys
<dholbach> ogra: can't really tell
<dholbach> bye seb128 
<ogra> night seb128 
<mvirkkil> mvo: : Luckily no. Only the cache of what is available.
<dholbach> seb128: see you in ffm, right?
<mvo> night seb128 
<dholbach> seb128: frankfurt (main) :-)
<mvirkkil> mvo: apt-get update fixed it
<seb128> dholbach: when ?
<ogra> dholbach, so if not, have a nice time, see you in ffm
<mvo> mvirkkil: heh, happens all the time to me :)
<dholbach> seb128: april, 16th before 23:55?
<seb128> pfiou
<seb128> you were speaking about tomorrow :p
<dholbach> seb128: when does your flight go?
<seb128> 16th 
<seb128> but since you were speaking about tomorrow ...
<mvirkkil> What does it mean when lintian says: internal error: internal error: syntax error in @packages array: b 
<ogra> heh
<seb128> nm, all is right :)
<dholbach> so you'll be in frankfurt when?
<seb128> 16th evening
<seb128> NOT tomorrow :p
<ogra> lol
<mvirkkil> I built it with dpkg-deb --build
<dholbach> ah ok... so we'll be able to have a beer :-)
<seb128> right
<seb128> I should be here around 20 IIRC
* mvo goes to sleep now
<zul> hey
<dholbach> now really... *wave*
<desrt> so only security changes are made to hoary, right?
<Burgundavia> desrt, correct
<desrt> what if there's a significant crasher bug?
<ogra> desrt, that too (if its really significant)
<ogra> but i guess we would have already heard about it
<Burgundavia> the problem with any change is that of reversions
<desrt> i have an evo crasher :)
<ogra> i dont
<ogra> and i havent heard of any 
<desrt> i get 100% repeatability
<desrt> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9693
<ogra> desrt, then file it in bugzilla please
<ogra> ah
<mdke> the presence of the word "Windows" in the subject line, and "microsoft" in the sender...
<mdke> you're wondering why its crashing?
<mike_douglas> hah
<desrt> if evolution crashes by forwarding an email send by outlook, we're in trouble :)
<mdke> lol
<desrt> that's a fairly common use case :P
<desrt> is anyone able to reproduce it?
<zyga> hey
* zyga reads backlog
<robertj> splashy is the usplash implementation that is being blessed for hoary right?
<robertj> err breezy
<ogra> robertj, not yet
<sladen> robertj: if it's blessed, that will be after the conference
<robertj> ahh
<mike_douglas> desrt: reproducable
<mike_douglas> s/reproducable/reproducible
* robertj reboots to see if splashy works, hopefully I'll be back ;)
<robertj> ooh, splashy works fine
<Burgundavia> ahh
<Burgundavia> emails
<desrt> ok
<desrt> i have a patch for the crasher
<desrt> and it's 100% non-regression causing :)
<desrt> since the only case that it makes a change to the problem is when the program would crash anyway :)
<cartel_> hi all
<cartel_> who knows about building linux-image?
<cartel_> specifically how to unpatch ubuntu source tree, apply a top level patch and then repatch?
<cartel_> im having troubles with linux-source-2.6.10, wont unapply patches
<cartel_> and also applying patches to vanilla source doesnt work
<cartel_> so i am kind of stuck
<Speedy2> cartel_:  Why don't you just grab a stock vanilla Linux kernel?
<Speedy2> Which patches are you trying to apply?
<cartel_> Speedy2: linux-patch-ubuntu
<Speedy2> cartel_: What does that actually give you?
<cartel_> Speedy2: linux-image
<Speedy2> Which is?
<cartel_> ubuntu kernel
<Speedy2> Ok
<Speedy2> Why not just make your own kernel?
<Speedy2> Why do you want to apply the Ubuntu patches?
<cartel_> i am trying to make xen-linux-images for the community
<cartel_> so it behaves the same
<Speedy2> Ah
<Speedy2> Does the linux-patch-ubuntu not give you information on patching?
<schweeb> you're doing linux-patch-ubuntu?
<ogra> cartel_, i think fabio already has done that locally...
<schweeb> read the docs included in linux-patch-ubuntu
<ogra> (xen)
<Speedy2> Usually, in the Linux kernel tree, there is a text file that gives you the syntax for how to patch
<schweeb> they specifically tell you what you patch against.....
<cartel_> usually in the debian kernel tree it works
<cartel_> i dont see why so many deltas everywhere and workarounds
<tsume_> is breezy being worked on currently, or not yet?
<cartel_> schweeb: the only doc that comes with linux-patch-ubuntu is the changelog
<ogra> tsume_, its importing packages and building them currently....
<cartel_> fabbione: are you there?
<schweeb> cartel_: actually, it's in the package description....
<tsume_> ogra: mmmm. I can't wait ;)
<cartel_> oh god
<schweeb> "They should be applied to a pristine Linux 2.6.10 kernel"
<cartel_>  This package includes the patches used to produce the prepackaged
<cartel_>  linux-source-2.6.10 package.  They should be applied to a pristine
<cartel_>  Linux 2.6.10 kernel.  Note that these patches do NOT apply
<cartel_>  against a pristine Linux 2.6.10 kernel but only against
<cartel_>  linux-source-2.6.10_2.6.10.orig.tar.gz from the Ubuntu archive.
<cartel_> b.ambigious
<tsume_> ogra: are there any plans for a graphical installation like suse or redhat, do you kno?
<schweeb> tsume_: eventually, probably
* schweeb doesn't really see much need for a graphical installer if the current one works just great
<cartel_> so trying to patch against linux-source-2.6.10 is impossible because it diverged too far from the vanillas
<ogra> tsume_, there are plans, but nobody can tell exactly what will happen before the conference is done where all these things will be discussed
<tsume_> schweeb: I'm going to introduce windows people to ubuntu, a graphical installer would be nice
<cartel_> so i should give up
<cartel_> and leave it to the professionals
<cartel_> ''
<tsume_> schweeb: never say user friendly doesn't matter
<schweeb> tsume_: you realize Windows' installer isn't graphical, right? (or at least win2k... haven't done XP in a while)
<tsume_> schweeb: a graphical installer is important
<Speedy2> schweeb: The initial installer is not
<schweeb> I still don't see your point
<cartel_> apt-get source should always get vanilla sources and a diff
<schweeb> something isn't un-userfriendly just because it's not graphical
<ogra> cartel_, come back if fabionne is araound again (UTC+2 office hours)
<tsume_> schweeb: the windows 2k installer is graphical
<Speedy2> schweeb: But Linux and Windows behave differently.  Windows does not install hundreds of packages out of the gate
<tsume_> schweeb: it takes time and research to realise user interface matters
<schweeb> the textual installer I see every time I install win2k (almost daily) says differently...
<cartel_> tsume_: the win2k installer is not graphical
<Speedy2> schweeb: That's just to get the core installed, the next step is graphical.
<schweeb> same type of blue background/text foreground as win2k...
<weazle> but the bottom line is: it must be that simple that a monkey can use it
<cartel_> tsume_: partitionaing et al is done in textmode
<tsume_> schweeb: yes, but it switches to graphical later
* cartel_ thinks point and drool installers unnescessary
<tsume_> cartel_: heh
<schweeb> I haven't seen a single valid reason for a graphical installer yet.
<tsume_> cartel_: presentation counts
<tsume_> schweeb: people buy eye candy ;)
<Speedy2> schweeb: If you do a custom installation and want to select packages, a mouse interface is much nicer.
<zul> not neccesarily
<tsume_> schweeb: eye candy is a way of life
<Burgundavia> Speedy2, there is no reason you should be adding package during the installer
<schweeb> 97% of people don't do the custom installation
<zul> i find it easier and faster with a text interface
<tsume_> Speedy2: arrow and spacebar ;)
<schweeb> a graphical installer adds extra overhead
<Speedy2> Burgundavia: Not adding, I mean selecting what you want period
<tsume_> schweeb: well it should be optional
<Burgundavia> Speedy2, that would be changing
<Speedy2> Burgundavia: I don't need a hundred different programs installed that I will never use
<Burgundavia> Speedy2, that is what good defaults are for
<Burgundavia> Speedy2, or you roll a kicstart script
<schweeb> Speedy2: use the server install
<schweeb> or kickstart, like Burgundavia said
<Speedy2> I'm not complaining about not being able to do it, I'm simply stating that having a GUI *can* make it easier.
<schweeb> essentially, very very few people will use the custom install
<Burgundavia> Speedy2, and I am saying that is not what the the installer is for
<cartel_> heh
<Speedy2> schweeb: I don't agree.
<schweeb> and the few that actually WILL use the custom install are more than capable of using their keyboard to do the work
<Speedy2> Burgundavia: Many Linux distros let you do a "custom" install where you tell it what packages you want or don't want it to install, from the start.
<Burgundavia> Speedy2, bad usablity
<schweeb> Speedy2: that's the anti-ubuntu
<Burgundavia> Speedy2, get the install done
<Burgundavia> then deal with the excess packages
<Speedy2> Why?
<Speedy2> Why not do it right from the start?>
<Burgundavia> because you add complication where there doesn't need to be any
<Speedy2> schweeb: Yeah, it might be anti-ubuntu, but not all people who want to use ubuntu are new to Linux.
<Speedy2> (or UNIX)
<schweeb> the whole point of Ubuntu is to QUICKLY and with very FEW QUESTIONS get you a FULLY functional desktop
<Speedy2> Burgundavia: Well, it sounds like we just have to agree to disagree.
<Speedy2> schweeb: Yes, but for those people who want more control, and know what they're doing, there should be no reason to exclude them.
<Speedy2> After all, I'm not suggesting it's manditory.
<schweeb> Speedy2: so those people can use kickstart scripts
<toresbe> Speedy2: I disagree.
<schweeb> or deal with the custom installer
<schweeb> or type "server" to isntall the minimal server installer
<schweeb> or... roll their own CD
<Speedy2> Well, the point is that you want to be able to select packages and not be forced to make your own distro.
<Speedy2> If that's the case, then I think there are other alternatives.
<schweeb> okay
<Burgundavia> Speedy2, you can, it is called synaptic
<schweeb> you want to select your packages?
<schweeb> have you been listening?  use the "server" install
<schweeb> it's minimal
<Speedy2> schweeb:  I was saying that being able to select your packages, at install time, could benefit from having a GUI, that was really the point.
<schweeb> then install whatever you want
<Speedy2> Notice..."could"
<schweeb> the best option there would be to do a default install, then remove what they don't want using synaptic afterwards to remove what they don't want then
<schweeb> I see no problem with this... the whole deb archive from the CD is copied to the HD anyways, I believe, so you're not really saving any space
<Speedy2> That's pretty interesting.
<schweeb> and in the long run, you've actually saved yourself some time
<Speedy2> Is that so one can install packages w/o hitting the repository?
<schweeb> yep
<Speedy2> (err repositories)
<Nigelenki> https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RWXMappings and https://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/RWXMappingsAMD64
<schweeb> you save time by being able to have a fully functional desktop, so you can multitask while you're grooming your packages using Synaptic
<cartel_> damn fabbione didnt put his work on people.u.o
<cartel_> heh
<Amaranth> oy, breezy-changes is flooding me :)
<Amaranth> if i didn't have gmail filtering it into it's own label i'd be freaking
<schweeb> it tends to do that
<schweeb> which is why I use gmane :)
<Amaranth> heh
<toresbe> we've started a breezy?
<toresbe> neeewat
<toresbe> neeeat*
<toresbe> now I can be even more cutting-edge and stupid!
<Amaranth> new libgda will uninstall all GTK# things, neat :)
<Amaranth> and gnomedb and glade :)
<Speedy2> Does the Ubuntu / Kubuntu install CD have a module for the LSI Logic Fusion MPT (U320) SCSI card?
<Speedy2> (my card wasn't detected when I tried to use the Kubuntu Live CD)
<mdz> Speedy2: the mptscsih module should handle it
<mdz> Speedy2: if it isn't loaded automatically, try modprobing it manually.  if that works, file a bug
<Speedy2> Ok.  How do I file a bug (I'll try it right now)
<Speedy2> Err, that is I'll try the modprobe and if it works, file the bug
<Speedy2> Got it, duh
<Speedy2> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/bugs
<Speedy2> Thanks brb
<mdz> infinity: ping?
<Speedy2> mdz: Ok, the mptscsih module is not present on the Live CD.
<mdz> really?
<mdz> on what architecture?
<Speedy2> i386
<Speedy2> Kubtunu-live CD
<Speedy2> I am burning the Kubuntu installer and I'll see if it's there
<mdz> they have identical kernels
<Speedy2> modprobe mptscsih failed
<Speedy2> mdz: Including the set of modules?
<Speedy2> mdz: I checked /lib/module/2.6.10-5/kernel/drivers/scsi , no "mptscsih"
<Riddell> Speedy2: sudo modprobe mptscsih ?
<Riddell> it's in /lib/modules/2.6.10-5-386/kernel/drivers/message/fusion/mptscsih.ko
<Speedy2> Riddell: I was at a root shell
<Speedy2> woah
<Speedy2> ok
<Speedy2> hrm
<Speedy2> Riddell: Is this on your installed setup?
<Riddell> yes
<Speedy2> Can you DCC me that file?  I'll try the Live CD again and check the "message" folder (but I don't recall seeing that)
<Riddell> http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/mptscsih.ko
<Speedy2> Riddell: Thanks.  Is there anything else in the "fusion" folder?
<mdz> potpal:[~/cd/ubuntu]  ls -l /mnt/lib/modules/2.6.10-5-386/kernel/drivers/message/fusion/mpt*
<mdz> -rw-r--r--  1 root root 49293 2005-04-05 06:40 /mnt/lib/modules/2.6.10-5-386/kernel/drivers/message/fusion/mptbase.ko
<mdz> -rw-r--r--  1 root root 28285 2005-04-05 06:40 /mnt/lib/modules/2.6.10-5-386/kernel/drivers/message/fusion/mptctl.ko
<mdz> -rw-r--r--  1 root root 18018 2005-04-05 06:40 /mnt/lib/modules/2.6.10-5-386/kernel/drivers/message/fusion/mptlan.ko
<Speedy2> mdz: I noticed that the "sg" module was not loaded also
<mdz> -rw-r--r--  1 root root 40706 2005-04-05 06:40 /mnt/lib/modules/2.6.10-5-386/kernel/drivers/message/fusion/mptscsih.ko
<mdz> that's from the Ubuntu live CD
<Speedy2> So it's in the message folder
<mdz> which also has exactly the same kernel
<Speedy2> Ok, I missed that, my mistake.
<mdz> just try modprobe, please
<Speedy2> mdz: I did try modprobe
<mdz> can you paste the output from modprobe?
<Speedy2> I typed "modprobe mptscsih" and it said "No such module"
<Speedy2> mdz: I'd have to reboot and try again
<mdz> it did not say "No such module"
<Speedy2> Maybe moduel not found?
<Speedy2> module not found
<mdz> if the module doesn't exist, it says "FATAL: Module <blah> not found"
<mdz> perhaps it said "No such device"
<Speedy2> No
<mdz> which means that it found the module fine, but it doesn't support your hardware
<Speedy2> No, it didn't try to load
<Speedy2> I have a 21320U card in here, made by LSI
<Speedy2> Let me re-burn the Live CD and see exactly what it says
<Speedy2> Or do you want me to try it on the installer CD?
<mdz> I can almost guarantee that the module is there
<mdz> on the live CD
<Speedy2> mdz: I have no reason to lie about modprobe saying it couldn't find the module.
<Speedy2> mdz: But, I'll try again.  Do you want me to try the Live CD or Installer?
<mdz> in a moment, I'll have a Kubuntu live CD image
<Speedy2> Ok
<mdz> and I will look inside and verify that the module is there
<Speedy2> Ok
<mdz> if I were a betting man, I'd bet that it's there ;-)
<mdz> but I will check
<Speedy2> mdz: I didn't check the "message" folder
<Speedy2> I only spelunked into /lib/module/<kernel_ver>/kernel/drivers/scsi
<mdz> you said you used modprobe
<Speedy2> I did
<Speedy2> modprobe sg worked
<Speedy2> modprobe mptscsih did not
<mdz> that may be so
<mdz> but it is not because the module isn't there
<mdz> so I would like to find out why
<Speedy2> Umm, it should have given me some hardware failure error
<Speedy2> If it couldn't load the module, right?
<Speedy2> Assuming it found the module
<mdz> there's no need to hypothesize if you can test it
<mdz> I'd rather do that than guess
<Speedy2> I did test it.  Would you like me to test it again?
<mdz> yes, please
<Speedy2> Ok.  Is there a way to capture the output and save it?
<Speedy2> I do have an IDE HDD that it mounts and sees
<Speedy2> Does the Live image support USB pen drives? I've got one of those too.
<toresbe> sue
<mdz> dijkstra:[~]  find /mnt/lib/modules -name '*mptscsih*'
<mdz> /mnt/lib/modules/2.6.10-5-386/kernel/drivers/message/fusion/mptscsih.ko
<toresbe> sure*
<mdz> the module is there, as expected
<mdz> filename:       /mnt/lib/modules/2.6.10-5-386/kernel/drivers/message/fusion/mptscsih.ko
<mdz> author:         LSI Logic Corporation
<mdz> description:    Fusion MPT SCSI Host driver
<jdub> GOOOD MORNING FREEDOM LOVERS
<Speedy2> mdz: Ok, it's there, but I still believe that modprobe was not finding it.  The Live CD installer comes up, says detecting devices, then says it can't find my CD-ROM
<Speedy2> mdz: I then did ALT+F2 (or CTL+ALT+F2) got to the busybox shell and typed "modprobe mptscsih"
<shaya> wondering why breezy is using libc6 from debian experimental, breaks the mono 1.1 debs that are being made
<Speedy2> mdz: I'm re-burning the Live image and I'll try again
<shaya> /usr/bin/cli: relocation error: /usr/bin/cli: symbol __libc_stack_end, version GLIBC_PRIVATE not defined in file ld-linux.so.2 with link time reference
<Speedy2> mdz: If I were at the vanilla prompt, should modprobe mptscsih load it, without me having to go into that directory?
<mdz> Speedy2: ok, now that you explain what you did, we're talking about two different things
<mdz> you're talking about the bootstrap environment, and I'm talking about the live environment
<Speedy2> mdz: Ok.  I can't get to the live environment because it can't find my CD-ROM
<mdz> shaya: it isn't. it's using glibc 2.3.5
<Speedy2> CD-ROM is attached to MPT
<mdz> mptscsih for the bootstrap environment is in the scsi-extra-modules udeb
<infinity> mdz : pong.
<Speedy2> Umm, where is that located again?
<shaya> mdz: well, better Q is, i thought ubuntu was supposed to be forked off of unstable, it's not?
<mdz> Speedy2: it _ought_ to be pulled in by default.  if you can see the module in /lib/modules, then it is being installed for you
<mdz> if it isn't, then it's a bug
<Speedy2> mdz: Ok.  What do you want me to do to test it?
<mdz> Speedy2: boot the live CD, go up to the point where you get the error, alt+f2, look in /lib/modules for the module
<infinity> shaya : libc6 2.3.5 is a breezy release goal.  With 6-month time-based releases, breaking things as early as possible in an effort to fix them in time is a Good Thing. :)
<daniels> infinity: hello sunshine
<mdz> shaya: Ubuntu is based on Debian unstable, yes.  but it also contains things which are not in Debian unstable.  That's sort of the point.
* thom tickles infinity and daniels
<infinity> daniels : Mornin' pun'kin.
<shaya> ok
<shaya> just wondering
<ajmitch_> shaya: mono problem is a known issue with upstream, afaik
<shaya> ah, so even a recompile wont fix it?
<Speedy2> mdz: Ok.  Give me a minute, I'll return
<ajmitch_> from what I heard, it's an issue with mono using libc symbols that should have been private but weren't quite - I don't know if a recompile would fix it or not 
<mdz> Speedy2: thanks
<Speedy2> mdz: NP, I'd like to help if I can.
<Speedy2> brb
<mdz> infinity: did we go over merge-o-matic?
<infinity> mdz : Define "go over"... It's been explaind to me, and I've availed myself of its services, yes. :)
* thom wonders if m-o-m can cope with packages being named differently between unstable and breezy
<mdz> infinity: ok, just wanted to be sure you were familiar with it, so you could dive in on the merge bugs
<infinity> thom : I'm curious about that myself, since I have two packages (php4 and php4-universe) that are derived from php4 in sid.
<infinity> thom : WOuld be nice to get m-o-m to work its magic on both, rather than just one.
<thom> i need to rename mozilla-firefox to firefox, to comply with MoFo's licensing requirements
<thom> infinity: yeah
<daniels> thom: wonder if it can sensibly merge xfree86 typo fixes to xorg
<infinity> <laugh
<infinity> That'd be a big debdiff.
<thom> daniels: *giggle*
<infinity> mdz : Yeah, let 'em rip.
<mdz> infinity: they're all in bugzilla now
<mdz> 269 of them
<infinity> Neat.
<mdz> many are trivial
<mdz> many are not ;-)
<infinity> Seach criteria?
<mdz> infinity: summary "require merging"
<shaya> hmm, that was funky.  accidently cat'd a jpg, and it changed my terminal's $ to  :)
<Speedy2> mdz: No luck.
<Speedy2> mdz: find /lib -name 'mpt*'
<Speedy2> mdz: returned the command prompt
<mdz> Speedy2: please file a bug, package 'cdrom-detect'
<Speedy2> mdz: Ok.
<infinity> thom : I assume it'sokay to continue calling the Mozilla Suite "mozilla", but we need to remove the 'mozilla' from firefox and thunderbird?
<thom> yep
<thom> firefox is ready to upload, gonna do t-bird this arvo
<schweeb> mozilla's starting to act pretty quirky lately, it's worrisome :-/
<infinity> In the course of your firefox maintenance, have you ever considered convincing the Debian maintainer to switch to a patch system? :)
* ogra cries....mom decided to drop the lock window patch completely
<schweeb> lock window patch?
<thom> infinity: i have tried, yes. he said they used to use one but didn't like it 
<ogra> schweeb, my screensaver patch
<mdz> infinity: http://tinyurl.com/4yeft
<infinity> thom : <boggle>
<thom> infinity: yes
<thom> he went on to say that the patches are kept in a private cvs repo
<infinity> thom : Doesn't have to be some fancy tarball-in-tarball system.. Even something like what we use in the php4 source is nice.
<thom> infinity: yup
<schweeb> ogra: what'd it do?
<thom> infinity: i'm going start keeping my ubuntu patches in something like the php4 system
<schweeb> was it that patch that gave xss a gtk popup?
<ogra> schweeb, see http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/ongoing-merge/xscreensaver/
<ogra> schweeb, gtk popup ?
<infinity> Hrm.  Installing openoffice = teh suck.
* infinity waits for his hard drive to stop grinding, and his console to become responsive again.
<schweeb> ogra: I remember seeing an unlock dialogue that had gtk widgets for OK and such
<schweeb> can't remember where
<ogra> schweeb, not mine... (lock your screen to see it)
<schweeb> oh oh
<schweeb> you're the one who made the pretty Ubuntu dialogue?
<schweeb> it's nice
<schweeb> :)
<ogra> yep... but our mom doesnt like it
<jdub> schweeb: that was a hideous sun/ximian patch
<schweeb> lol
<ogra> hey jdub 
<schweeb> hideous does describe sun pretty well :)
<ogra> jdub, does it make any sense to merge it in again ?
<schweeb> mmm, CDE
<ogra> schweeb, yeah eyecandy for concrete lovers
<Speedy2> mdz: Can you send me the MPT modules?  If I modprobe them, do I need to modprobe anything else so the Live CD will see my CD-ROM?
* mpt wonders how to get Gaim to not beep at him when "MPT modules" are mentioned
<jdub> ogra: yeah man, it's teh radness! ;-)
<jdub> ogra: everyone will miss it ;)
<mdz> Speedy2: Riddell already gave it to you
<mdz> Speedy2: <Riddell> http://muse.19inch.net/~jr/tmp/mptscsih.ko
<ogra> jdub, yep, but we want something new, dont we ?
<Speedy2> mdz: Just the one, but there are more
<Speedy2> mdz: That is, there are a few modules that the MPT subsystem needs, right?
<Speedy2> mpt: Change your nick :)
<ogra> lol
<Speedy2> mpt: mp_t
<mdz> Speedy2: http://dijkstra.csh.rit.edu/~mdz/temp/fusion.tar.gz
<Speedy2> mdz: Thanks a lot!
<Speedy2> RIT? I had friends that went there
* thom becomes bored of checking out breezy seeds
<mdz> thom: bored?  MOM awaits! ;-)
<thom> mdz: *g*
<thom> mdz: i'm doing rather a bit of damage to this por internet cafe with firefox uplaod and breezy seed downlaod, i think they might cry if i do anything else
<mdz> thom: I think the breezy seed download is bottlenecked on baz :-P
<mdz> thom: firefox upload -> merge result?
<daniels> thom: i think you should grab xorg sources
<daniels> thom: just for a laugh
<Speedy2> heheheh
<thom> mdz: no, firefox oad -> rename; i saw the merge bug just after the orig started uploading
<ogra> *grin*
<thom> :(
<daniels> thom: oh yeah, you totally need to upgrade ooo
<jdub> ogra: later on, yeah
<ogra> ah, ok
<thom> heh
<jdub> thom: dude, don't worry about the suit
<jdub> thom: do not pass bondi junction, do not deposit $200 ;)
<jdub> thom: i have it already, and DAMN DO I LOOK GOOD
<jdub> EVERYBODY, COME AND SEE HOW GOOD I LOOL!
<thom> jdub: fair enough; who did you get to do it?
<jdub> LOOK!
<thom> hahah
<jdub> ;-)
<jdub> we so need to have a mandatory screening
* daniels fears the concept of jdub in a suit.
* zul just fears jdub
<schweeb> jdub: i love scotch, scotchy scotch scotch
<HrdwrBoB> down in my belly
<jdub> deep into my belly
<jdub> see
<jdub> you guys konw the score!
<schweeb> that movie rocks
<HrdwrBoB> I ate a big, red, candle :/
<jdub> :-)
<thom> i drank a lava lamp. it wasn't lava
<jdub> schweeb: i watched it 5 times in three days this week :-)
<schweeb> especially when the retarded guy pulls out the grenade, and killed the guy with the triton :)
<schweeb> <3 jdub
<HrdwrBoB> ... and I killed a guy with a trident
<schweeb> yea
<schweeb> trident, that's what I meant
<infinity> Is it okay to admit I have no freakin' clue what you guys are on about?
<schweeb> infinity: Anchorman
<thom> infinity: you will do; you *WILL* do
<ogra> daniels, its no _that_ bad http://www.grawert.net/mataro/img100.jpeg
<schweeb> looks like that suit hasn't been worn for a while, eh jdub... pants are a bit short looks like
<schweeb> oh nm
<schweeb> optical illusion
<schweeb> are they perkypants though?
<jdub> ALWAYS
<Amaranth> mpt: What was that?
<schweeb> ogra: you in any of these pics?
<ogra> i took them...
<schweeb> heh, most people will get someone to take a picture or 2 of them on their camera :)
<ajmitch_> that reminds me, I need a decent memory card for my camera before I leave
<schweeb> only people I really recognize are jdub and mako, heh
<schweeb> oh, and there's elmo
<ogra> schweeb, tollef took a nice one of me: http://err.no/pictures/2004-12-Mataro/slides/dsc00354.html
<infinity> There are no nice pictures of me, that's why I'm always on the other end of the lens. :)
* infinity makes a mental note to bring a camera or two to UDU and capture the elusive wild nerd in its element.
<schweeb> every picture that gets taken of me, I'm usually pretty drunk
<schweeb> visibly so
<mako> i looked twisted in http://err.no/pictures/2004-12-Mataro/slides/dsc00372.html
<schweeb> http://www.schweeb.org/~chris/pic2/Picture%20010.jpg <--- me, with the bud light :)
<zul> isnt that what they always say?
* infinity claims a few merge bugs and gets to work.
<bluefoxicy> infinity:  bored?
<jdub> I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT!
<lifeless> STUFF
<infinity> bluefoxicy : There's nothing boring about patch merging, why it's so fun, I've been doing it all week!
<infinity> <cough>
* infinity stares at thom for effect.
<bluefoxicy> heh
<bluefoxicy> infinity:  I only do work when I'm bored :)
<bluefoxicy> hence why I refuse to join any open source development team
<bluefoxicy> speaking of development
<bluefoxicy> anyone know of anything that'll let me RAD out a GTK+ app?
<thom> LOUD NOISES
<bluefoxicy> think Visual Basic, but with GTK+2 and C
<thom> infinity: *giggle*
<schweeb> thom: I DONT KNOW WHAT WE'RE YELLING ABOUT
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: Glade
<bluefoxicy> tsume_:  glade doesn't exactly do it :)
<schweeb> bluefoxicy: glade, and eventually stetic
<schweeb> that's the closest you'll get
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: sure it does ;)
<bluefoxicy> yeah, it's the closest, just doesn't let me double-click a button and edit its code for a given event
<tsume_> I use wxWidgets with C++ though :)
<bluefoxicy> i.e. GUI programming from a non-gui programmer's point of view
<bluefoxicy> but with glade
* tsume_ doesn't believe in that view
<bluefoxicy> I would like to be able to make the same kinds of things as the users and groups program
<tsume_> a person can simply add the method/function to the needed even
<tsume_> +t
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: I really recommend wxWidgets, it uses the more popular toolkits on each platform
<bluefoxicy> but I can't find the control and settings used for a list of check boxes, i.e. user properties -> user privileges
<bluefoxicy> tsume_:  I want to do some linux-only programming
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: okay, but you can do that as well
<bluefoxicy> particulary, I might step up and code up the Ubuntu Security Center thing if nobody else is going to do it
<bluefoxicy> but I can't do GUI programming
<bluefoxicy> however
<bluefoxicy> if I did code that
<bluefoxicy> I'd come out with at least some method of being able to do that by the end, right?
<bluefoxicy> so I'd learn something
<bluefoxicy> hence it's highly worth my time
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: the API for wxWidgets is _very_ easy
<bluefoxicy> but I must sleep, work at 9am tomorrow
<schweeb> use glade
<schweeb> or wxWidgets
<schweeb> those are about as simple as GUI programming gets...
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: you can use many langs with wxwidgets, but knowing people like you. You might want to learn Python and wxPython(wxwidgets)
<blueyed> Does anybody have a good visual diff/merge/directory comparison tool to recommend? The closest to Beyond Compare (on win32) I've found is xxdiff.. :/
<bluefoxicy> tsume_, schweeb:  Well, I've got work at intermittent times.  If you wanna help I'll take a crack at it; I'll get you my availability some time tomorrow afternoon if so
<bluefoxicy> tsume_: no way.  C is the best language for me :)
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: you said you program for a hobby though, when you have time
* schweeb only does C#
<bluefoxicy> tsume_:  I rarely find use for object orientation (though objective-c is better than C++ for that).  Not interested in python right now because I have no use for it and would like to solve an actual problem as well as learn something ;)
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: well, do you create web scripts?
<bluefoxicy> this problem I feel is better solved in C due to its simplicity
<bluefoxicy> I don't do much web scripting.
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: what about user scripts?
<bluefoxicy> I may write a content managment system later though
<ogra> AAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
<bluefoxicy> user scripts I do, in bash
<ogra>  + Enable locking by default after some time.
<ogra> thats evil
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: python is really for you :)
<bluefoxicy> I've written stuff in like, bash with xdialog :)
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: its written all over your personallity
<bluefoxicy> tsume_:  maybe, but I really really like the C programming language
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: you can write in C and make a linkage to python, it will be perfect practice for interfacing
<bluefoxicy> I find it easiest to solve problems using it, aside from quick shellscript stuff done in bash :)
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: also you can embed python in your C apps ;)
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: Blender does
<bluefoxicy> tsume_:  I'd rather learn some gui coding in C
<bluefoxicy> I'll learn python at some point, it's on my todo list
<bluefoxicy> since it seems to be a popular language
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: you should really be using an OO based language for GUIs, it makes it a better experience.
<thom> how on earth is breezy changes still checking out? GAR
<bluefoxicy> no thanks
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: C is the most popular, then C++, then Python
<bluefoxicy> tsume_:  C is also useful for OO btw :)
<bluefoxicy> structures are objects ;)
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: I know
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: pointers to functions :P
<bluefoxicy> no
<bluefoxicy> I rarely see a need for full-blown OOP
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: hehe.
<bluefoxicy> normally I see things where one object is being managed at a time, rather than a whole lot of them; or where an object is being passed along a codepath anyway
<bluefoxicy> adding full OOP like in C++ or ObjC normally involves something like passing the same object (now a class) down the same codepath, except that now that codepath calls member functions for the class type of the object
<bluefoxicy> which is pretty much moving the same code around
<bluefoxicy> but following the same flow
<bluefoxicy> so I rarely find OOP useful
<schweeb> things like inheritance and such are awesome :)
<bluefoxicy> OOP is useful if you do the same thing to the same type of object in multiple places regularly
<bluefoxicy> if you normally call a member from one place in the code, then it's not really useful.
<bluefoxicy> anyway I need sleep
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: OOP makes it more than that
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: method overloading is great, passing objects, STL, and many other features
<ogra> jdub,  xss 4.21-1  + Includes a button to launch gdmflexiserver
<ogra> seen that ?
<schweeb> is that so you can run essentially do user-switching?
<zul> later
<schweeb> s/run //
<ogra> yep
<bluefoxicy> tsume_: objective-c is much better than c++
<Amaranth> both suck compared to Python ;)
<thom> um. zsh: 25266 segmentation fault (core dumped)  baz commit -s 'rename mozilla-firefox to firefox'
<thom> *sigh*
* schweeb prepares to watch thom go into a mental meltdown
<robitaille> maybe a sign from the computer gods that firefox doesn't want to be renamed?
<thom> robitaille: heh, entirely possible
<robitaille> thom,  maybe it's time to patch "about:mozilla" to something like "you shall not remove Mozilla"
<robitaille> which reminds me, maybe firefox needs more branding with a "about:ubuntu" page
<thom> elmo: please sync powermgmt-base from unstable, the unstable version merely merges our changes
<tsume_> bluefoxicy: ObjC has a high overhead
* infinity notes that not having a local admin awake when he wants to swap a kernel on a machine using BootX is... A pin.
<infinity> Also, a pain.
<infinity> Oh well.  I blame jbailey.
<infinity> Wouldn't need a new kernel if he hadn't dropped linuxthreads on PPC.
<fabbione> morning
<schweeb> morning
<schweeb> fabbione: gonna try to set up some SPARC buildds this weekend :)
<fabbione> schweeb: ok.. i will be around during most of the weekend... 
<fabbione> but did you ever done that?
<schweeb> k, cool
<schweeb> no, I've never set up sbuild or anything
<fabbione> good luck
<schweeb> I've never even installed anything on a SPARC
<schweeb> lol
<aj> "I love how the packages that are newer than sid number exactly 1337."
<jbailey> infinity: Sucks to be you? =)
<infinity> jbailey : Yes, yes it does.
<infinity> jbailey : And I'm still not done hating you. :P
<jbailey> What's BootX, BTW?
<schweeb> fabbione: how difficult are buildds to set up?  I mean, I could try to do something else with the boxes, but I can't think of anything else useful to do with them... and I know you were wantin SPARCs for buildin
<fabbione> schweeb: what kind of sparcs do you have?
<schweeb> whatever whiprush has got layin around
<schweeb> a blade 2200 I think
<schweeb> some others
<fabbione> schweeb: yeah ok.. are they sparc64 or sparc?
<jsgotangco> we're doing sparc?
<fabbione> schweeb: if you can install them and give me access, i can setup the rest
<fabbione> jsgotangco: since a while, but it is not released yet.. and it will be 100% unofficial
<schweeb> alright, that's pretty much what I figured the best way would be
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<schweeb> although I would be interested in learning to do a buildd
<fabbione> schweeb: than i suggest 2 things..
<fabbione> if you have more than one sparc, setup one for me (possibly the fastest)
<fabbione> and play with the other
<fabbione> because setting up a buildd isn't always trivial
<dholbach> morning
<fabbione> but you can look at mine while you do that
<fabbione> hey dholbach 
<schweeb> should we put Sarge/Sid on them, or is there a pretty simple way to do Ubuntu (installer CD, etc..)?
<dholbach> hey fabbione 
<ajmitch_> morning dholbach 
<dholbach> hey schweeb
<dholbach> hey ajmitch_ 
<schweeb> sup dholbach 
<dholbach> so many nice people here :-)
<fabbione> schweeb: you can try netinstalling them from sparc.u.c using hoary
<jsgotangco> hi
<fabbione> schweeb: but i don't guarantee it works
<schweeb> k
<fabbione> schweeb: otherwise go for sarge
<schweeb> I'll see what I can do
<ajmitch_> dholbach: just your regular fanclub ;)
<infinity> jbailey : Think "loadlin.exe" for MacOS.
<fabbione> unfortunatly 2 of the most important packages didn't make it in time
<dholbach> we really need some nice dial-up tool for breezy, else i wouldnt have to install windoze on my sister's box today
<schweeb> fabbione: whiprush seems to think you have to do some tftp boot love to get linux on the blade 2200
<dholbach> *sigh deeply*
<infinity> jbailey : For Macs where the firmware is so hideously broken that one needs to keep MacOS around as a glorified bootloader.
<dholbach> ajmitch_: :-)
<jbailey> infinity: Oy. =)
<schweeb> fabbione: so I'll see
<jsgotangco> lunch bbl
<dholbach> hey pitti
<fabbione> morning pitti
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> *yawn*
<jbailey> Anywho.  I can always tell that it's bed time when fabbione says "Good morning".. g'night all. ;)
<dholbach> sleep tight, jbailey 
<fabbione> night jbailey 
<pitti> night jbailey 
<fabbione> (And somebody still claims italians are useless :))
<pitti> jbailey: although I'm way earlier than usual today :-)
<schweeb> fabbione: Italians have good food, and good gangsters :)
<infinity> jbailey : 'Night, yo.
<jsgotangco> acckk
<jsgotangco> italians have lots of popes too
<cartel_> morning fabbione :)
<fabbione> hi cartel_ 
<fabbione> brb
<cartel_> lol
<cartel_> run from the cartel
<fabbione> re
<fabbione> cartel_: you can keep the conversation public, it's not a secret
* fabbione is tempt to upgrade to breezy
* jsgotangco will do that in a new box
<Treenaks> fabbione: you must like pain :P
<dholbach> fabbione: herve already did last night, and he said, he was fine
* Treenaks is going to wait until UDU
<Treenaks> at LEAST
* jsgotangco too
* dholbach is still not man enough
<jsgotangco> ohhh room assignments
<fabbione> nah it's just that i am working on breezy kernel
<fabbione> and i am a bit scared of the new ToolChain
* ajmitch_ checks his inbox
<fabbione> but i will test on it anyway
<fabbione> so better sooner than later
* fabbione breaks his workstation
<ajmitch_> dholbach: maybe you could do an upgrade of your box from .au?
* dholbach fastens fabbione's seatbelt
* jsgotangco looks for his room mate
<Treenaks> jsgotangco: look for your room, mate 8)
<dholbach> ajmitch_: i'll do it in .au, yes, although it's my sister's laptop
<dholbach> wonder if i should break it for her :-)
<ajmitch_> might as well
<ajmitch_> plenty of people around to help unbreak it :)
<dholbach> hope they unbreak the silly wireless thingie :-)
<Treenaks> dholbach: broadcom annoyance?
<ajmitch_> jsgotangco: aha, I missed that column on the spreadsheet :)
<jsgotangco> aha
<jsgotangco> hehe
<dholbach> Treenaks: Network controller: Lucent Microelectronics: Unknown device ab30
* ajmitch_ happily uses an atheros chipset
<stuNNed> ajmitch_: with madwifi?
<Treenaks> dholbach: scary
<dholbach> Treenaks: yes :-)
<ajmitch_> stuNNed: yeah, seems to work ok
<pitti> daniels: here?
<dholbach> bye
<ajmitch> bye dholbach 
<dholbach> see you, ajmitch :-)
<fabbione> i guess doko is on an airplane.. right?
<fabbione> jbailey: please ping me when you wake up
<infinity> fabbione : He went to bed less than 2 hours ago, you could be waiting awhile for that ping.
<fabbione> infinity: i am not in a hurry :)
<fabbione> infinity: i just saw a bunch of very scary messages building glibc on sparc
<infinity> Colour me surprised.
<fabbione> make[3] : *** No rule to make target `/build/sparcbuildd/glibc-2.3.5/build-tree/sparc-libc/sig
<fabbione> nal/tst-signal.out', needed by `tests'.
<fabbione> tons of these
<infinity> Oh, that's normal.
<infinity> Check a build log for another arch.
<infinity> I remember freaking out when I first saw a mess of those while patching some bug or other.
* lamont sleeps
<fabbione> yay.. glibc doesn't build on sparc
<schweeb> fabbione: haha, sounds like fun
<fabbione> schweeb: it's a missing include
<fabbione> go figure
<schweeb> hehe
<Treenaks> fabbione: and it worked before, with the older gcc?
<fabbione> it's not a gcc problem
<fabbione> glibc is forced to build with 3.3
<ficusplanet> jdub, have you seen this: http://people.warp.es/~isaac/blog/index.php/ubuntu-and-msn-logos-18 ?
<schweeb> ficusplanet: pretty anyone who's been paying attention to IRC or u-devel mail list has seen them
<schweeb> *pretty much
<ficusplanet> Oh, I never noticed it come up on ubuntu-devel.  Sorry about that.
<schweeb> not a problem
<schweeb> heh
<Treenaks> schweeb: or the different planets..
<theine> Is there a patch for the newest i pw2100 driver (1.1.0) available that allows the module to be build properly against the ubuntu kernel sources?
<fabbione> theine: i answered already to you on #ubuntu
<ajmitch> morning seb
<jsgotangco> editing documents can be boring
<jsgotangco> doh
<desrt> seb128; poke
<seb128> hi
<desrt> the bug only affects you if you have 'forward as attachment' on
<desrt> (which is default)
* Amaranth unsubscribed from breezy-changes :)
<Amaranth> too much stuff
<spo0nman> can i get a link to breezy goals?
<desrt> use the wiki :P
<desrt> i think there's seriously a page called BreezyGoals that links to the page you want
<spo0nman> desrt: (:
<desrt> http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDownUnder/BreezyGoals
<desrt> bewm
<spo0nman> desrt: in the idea poll there is something said about faster boot and a link to an acticle by a IBM guy... i would like to work on that. how to find out who else is working in order to collaborate... or who to let know...
<koke> hi all
<fabbione> humpf
<fabbione> i hate init scripts that start 736437 daemons at once
<pitti> fabbione: I told you ten thousand times to not exaggerate so much
<fabbione> pitti: nfs-utils :/
<fabbione> you know i am paranoid
<fabbione> that thing starts 4 daemons but spits out only one [OK]  like
<fabbione> line
<fabbione> it doesn't catch if one of the other daemons fail
<fabbione> so either we add 3 more lines at boot
<pitti> fabbione: I agree on that matter :-)
<fabbione> or if something fails we will never see it
<pitti> yeah, that sucks
<fabbione> clutter or not clutter? 
<fabbione> pitti: enlight me
<Zomb> .o( the unclutter tool rules )
* pitti votes for clutter
<fabbione> pitti: yeah..
<fabbione> it is more important to get the output in case of errors
<pitti> fabbione: at least a failed daemon should cry out loud and make the script fail
<astharot> ciao
<pitti> yeah
<fabbione> the entire script no.. just that daemon
<pitti> Hi astharot, how are you doing?
<fabbione> there is very little point in killing everything
<pitti> fabbione: depends on whether the daemons depend on each other
<astharot> how am I doing?
<fabbione> since they can all run indipendently and in parallel
<pitti> astharot: how are you, I meant
<astharot> pitti: oh, I'm fine thanks :P and you?
<pitti> fabbione: ah, ok. then it's even better to show four [OK]  lines IMHO
<pitti> astharot: same :-)
<astharot> pitti: I just sat to my office desktop :)
<zyga> hello
<superted> Is Coling Watson around?
<superted> Colin*
<zyga> I want to add automatic creation od /dev/cdrom
<zyga> am I right to look in /dev/MAKEDEV?
<pitti> no
<fabbione> pitti: yeah
<fabbione> superted: not yet
<pitti> zyga: that should be created automatically, isn't it?
<zyga> pitti: it's not
<superted> fabbione: ok, thanks
<zyga> pitti: (hey - it's a bug ;-)
<zyga> pitti: I've created one by hand but after reboot it was gone
<pitti> zyga: please file one, assign to me
<zyga> the cd drive is /dev/hdc and ... w8
<zyga> pitti: ok
<seb128> elmo: gnome-keyring gtranslator startup-notification gnome-spell planner gtk-doc gtksourceview dia   syncs please
<superted> does anyone know if this http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/installer-po/ is the place where the updated .po files resides?
<zyga> pitti: if you tell me how I can help and test :)
<pitti> zyga: /etc/udev/cd-aliases.rules
<pitti> zyga: I'm at the phone ATM
<fabbione> pitti: since you know udev.. #9688 ?
<zyga> pitti: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5732 
<zyga> pitti: I think this is realated
<zyga> pitti: I'll look into it - thanks
<fabbione> pitti: i will be glad to exchange it with one of yours
<pitti> fabbione: sure, I take it
<pitti> zyga: #5732 this rather looks like it's an installer bug
<zyga> pitti: did you read the whole report?
<pitti> zyga: no, just skimmed it
<zyga> pitti: look at the end
<spo0nman> grep this
<pitti> zyga: if it is your problem, just add your comments there
<zyga> pitti: I'm still checking
<spo0nman> i ran sleep.sh on a HP lappie and it wont come out of it. its like its in qa comma or something.... its not doing anything i held the power button for like 5 minutes and still nothing....
<zyga> spo0nman: remove the battery ;]  
<spo0nman> is there anyway to get it out of sleep? i can pull the battery out... i need a screwdriver to get there or something
<spo0nman> zyga: :( batter under screws... its company lappie i cant remove the stickers on the screws.
<spo0nman> however it the network lights are still blinking. does hoary run ssh by default?
<zyga> spo0nman: if you install openssh yes
<zyga> spo0nman: can you get in remotely?
<spo0nman> zyga: its a default ... i was doing a update while playing with acpi when this happened.
<zyga> spo0nman: it will probably discharge after some time
<spo0nman> so far my brightest idea has beem let the battery dry itself
<zyga> spo0nman: don't you have any hardware reset button?
<spo0nman> zyga: yeah! nothing i kept it pressed for like an hour
<zyga> spo0nman: that's a software button :>
<spo0nman> i just ran sleep.sh in /etc/acpid/
<spo0nman> X-( /me blames HP
<zyga> never try acpi without a screwdriver ;-)
<maswan> well, the battery has finite capacity, just leave it running over night?
<zyga> spo0nman: did you try alt+ctrl+del?
<spo0nman> zyga: X-(
<zyga> spo0nman: if it seems to berunning maybe video card just went crazy
<maswan> spo0nman: did you try closing and opening the lid?
* spo0nman sends wrath to those who makes fun of a poor guy.
<maswan> ctrl+alt-f1 ?
<spo0nman> zyga: ok i pulled out the battery... screw the RULES
<spo0nman> lesson learned : never try acpi without a screwdriver.
<zyga> spo0nman: check the log file later will you/
<spo0nman> zyga: yeah! will post on the -delel list.
<spo0nman> zyga: /var/log/acpid ?
<zyga> spo0nman: not sure really... try syslog and such too
<fabbione> zyga, spo0nman: can you please move this conversation to #ubuntu?
<fabbione> this channel is more like: hey i found this bug and this is the patch to fix it
<zyga> fabbione: sure
<fabbione> thanks
<pitti> daniels: ?
<spo0nman> bob2: ONE BUG FOR BOTH LAPPIES OR SEPRATE?
<spo0nman> sorry CAPS on by mistake....
<jsgotangco> acckk what the gmail is dead
<spo0nman> and wrong channel.
<pitti> screen -r
<pitti> hmm, EFOCUS
<jordi> heh, EEVERYTHING lately here
<seb128> elmo: ping ?
<GheRivero> res
<elmo> seb128: yah
<Mithrandir> pitti: would you have any problems with me putting an rc of irssi into breezy, security-wise?  The current version doesn't handle per-channel encodings and I really, really, really, _really_ want that.
<pitti> Mithrandir: no, at this time I don't care about breakage in breezy
<pitti> Mithrandir: however, breezy shuold get a released version by two months, is this possible?
<Mithrandir> pitti: well, it might very well stay around for the release too, given that irssi hasn't seen a new upstream version in two-three years.
<elmo> seb128: all ok to override, I assume?
<pitti> Mithrandir: uh
<pitti> Mithrandir: is it supported upstream at all?
<Mithrandir> pitti: it sees the occasional svn commit, like every second week or so, so upstream is alive.
<Mithrandir> pitti: I guess they just don't have any release engineers aboard.
<pitti> Mithrandir: okay
<pitti> Mithrandir: so that sounds as if it wouldn't really matter if a released or a svn snapshot breaks...
<seb128> elmo: right
<fabbione> hey elmo
<elmo> seb128: ok, done
<Mithrandir> pitti: so it's ok with you?
<elmo> hey fabbione 
<seb128> thanks
<Mithrandir> pitti: I'm talking about a release candidate, even though it's old, not just a random snapshot.
<fabbione> elmo: do we have any ETA for ports.u.c? (and yes i know you are very busy ;))
<pitti> Mithrandir: yeah, it's fine with me
<elmo> fabbione: if at all possible, I'll do it today, but there's some "must-do-before-going-to-.au" stuff I really have to get done in the DC first
<fabbione> elmo: sure i understand and it would be great if you can manage :)
<fabbione> elmo: if there is anything i can help with.. please ping
<elmo> fabbione: sure, thanks
<cartman> glibc is updated to 2.3.5 for breezy but binutils is still at 2.15
<cartman> is this safe?
<seb128> elmo: somebody is working on the issue with packages moved from universe to main for breezy ? 
<seb128> elmo: ie, stuff which are hoary/universe, breezy/main and returns a file not found now on hoary 
<fabbione> mjg59: ping?
<mjg59> fabbione: Hi
<fabbione> mjg59: want some crack to test?
<mjg59> fabbione: Sounds good - 2.6.12?
<fabbione> mjg59: rc2
<fabbione> 686 is fine?
<fabbione> or do you need other flavours?
<mjg59> 686 is good
<fabbione> o
<fabbione> k
<mjg59> If you give me a download spot, I'll grab it - but I can't promise much testing (I'm catching a plane this evening)
<mjg59> fabbione: Source packages would be lovely
<fabbione> mjg59: image is on the way.. sources are not final yet
<fabbione> but the changes i have in my TODO do not imply any internal change. only other external drivers
<mjg59> fabbione: Ah, ok
<fabbione> i will stick up a .diff.gz anyway
<mjg59> fabbione: Cool, thanks - against stock 2.6.12-rc2?
<fabbione> mjg59: there is also the orig there
<fabbione> but yes.. it's .11 + stock rc2 patch
<elmo> seb128: oh
<elmo> seb128: examples?
<seb128> <gjc>  W: Failed to fetch http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/g/gcc-4.0/gcc-4.0_4.0-0pre6ubuntu7_amd64.deb
<mjg59> fabbione: Ah, thank you
<seb128> that's s/universe/main now
<seb128> or evince
<fabbione> mjg59: still scping
<elmo> the evince seems entirely bogus
<seb128> why ?
<pitti> mvo: mind if I take #9340 from you? (gimp-print merge)
<elmo> seb128: it's in main in the packages and pool?
<mvo> pitti: not at all
<seb128> elmo: evince is hoary/universe, breezy/main
<elmo>     evince | 0.1.9-0ubuntu1 |         hoary | source, amd64, i386, ia64, powerpc
<elmo> grr
<seb128> a guy mailed about it 2 days ago
* fabbione throw some cold water on elmo
<elmo> I think someone teri'd this post-release
* elmo evil eyes mdz
<seb128> seems than all the package moved from universe to main are broken for hoary
<elmo> seb128: hardly all
<seb128> elmo: do you see what is wrong ? why have they been removed from universe ?
<elmo> I'll fix it
<seb128> k, I don't know if we have moved a lot of stuff
<seb128> thanks
<jbailey> fabbione: ping. =)
<seb128> hey jbailey 
<fabbione> hey jbailey
<jbailey> Heya sb
<fabbione> jbailey: people.u.c/~fabbione/
<fabbione> jbailey: there is the FTBFS glibc log for you
<fabbione> jbailey: 1 thing more over the real failure are all the error messages from the missing tests?
<jbailey> glibc_2.3.5-0ubuntu1_20050415-0627.bz2  
<jbailey> ?
<fabbione> yeps
<fabbione> it fails almost at the end
<jbailey> At that size it failed near the beginning...
<fabbione> jbailey: at 11MB?
<fabbione> it's almost at the end
<fabbione> it's a bz2 for a reason :)
<fabbione> sorry 14Mb
<jbailey> 14Mb down to 251k?
<fabbione> yeps
<fabbione> dude.. it's a log :)
<elmo> seb128: hang on - is evince meant to be in main?
<jbailey> Wow. 
<seb128> elmo: right, that's the default pdf/ps viewer for breezt
<seb128> breezy even
<fabbione> jbailey: my sparc can compress more :)
* jbailey sometimes misses pkzip telling his what the %'s were as things went by.
<fabbione> ehhe
<seb128> elmo: mdz has already remplaced gnome-gv/xpdf by evince for ubuntu-desktop IIRC
<jbailey> /build/sparcbuildd/glibc-2.3.5/debian/include/asm/traps.h:9:31: asm-sparc64/traps.h: No such file or directory
<jbailey> That's the triggering error.  Everything else is from that.
<fabbione> jbailey: yes.. i could see that.. but i was hoping in you shedding some light on why :)
<jbailey> fabbione: It's just simply missing from l-k-h, I'm guessing.
<fabbione> jbailey: also go up a bit and you will see that all the tests aren't executed
<fabbione> jbailey: ah ok..
<elmo> seb128: okay, all fixed
<jbailey> fabbione: The tests are never built because libc.so isn't built.
<fabbione> i did build ubuntu2 btw.. and it was ok
<elmo> (well, on ftp-master anyway)
<seb128> elmo: thanks!
<seb128> what was wrong (just curious) ?
<fabbione> jbailey: ok.. can you fix l-k-h or do you want me to?
<fabbione> jbailey: i guess that the procedure is fix l-k-h and try to rebuild glibc
<elmo> seb128: I have a script to fix this up, but it was only looking at warty, not hoary+warty
<jbailey> fabbione: Right.  There are two things I suspect I should do.  1) Pull this file in from real kernel headers.  It's obvious been marked as a kernel-only header in error.  2) Double check the testsuite for lkh.  I suspect that it only runs the 32bit tests on any given arch.
<seb128> elmo: k
<fabbione> jbailey: ok, than i suggest that you can look at l-k-h in the chroot i created for you
<fabbione> and i will build glibc that has the whole ccache
<fabbione> so it will be faster
<jbailey> fabbione: Faster, good. =)
<fabbione> jbailey: exactly
<fabbione> mjg59: 12rc2 suspend/resume on compaq armada M700 looks good. one annoying thing is that wireless pcmcia doesn't restore the ESSID
<mjg59> fabbione: Bleah.
<fabbione> but i guess that's userland
<fabbione> so
* fabbione doesn't care :)
<jbailey> fabbione: Do you have a kernel source handy?  If yes, can you toss asm-sparc64/traps.h into the chroot for me?
<fabbione> jbailey: sure.. just a sec
<fabbione> jbailey: what version specifically?
<jbailey> fabbione: Doesn't matter, it won't have changed that much through the 2.6 series, probably.
<jbailey> fabbione: I'm working from 2.6.11.2
<fabbione> ok
<jbailey> fabbione: This won't go as a patch to upstream, I'll just ask that he include the header so the next version won't have the mismatch.
<fabbione> hmmm
<fabbione> there is no traps.h
<jbailey> Err..
* jbailey digs further/.
<fabbione> jbailey: i am looking at 2.6.12rc2 and there is no traps.h in include/asm-sparc64/
<fabbione> i did copy the kernel source in your chroot home dir..
<jbailey> fabbione: Tx
<fabbione> jbailey: i can see sparc32 has it
* spo0nman hates bugzilla a little more....
<fabbione> but traps.h is not mentioned at all in arch/sparc64/
<jbailey> fabbione: Is this build still sitting in a chroot somewhere?
<desrt> pain
<jbailey> fabbione: In my lkh, traps.h doesn't refer to asm-sparc64 at all...
<jbailey> fabbione: Also, gcc isn't running with -m64, so it shouldn't be declaring __arch64__.  I think there are deeper issues here.
<fabbione> jbailey: nope.. it has been flushed..
<fabbione> jbailey: i can rebuild for you.. it's no problem.
<ross> mjg59: my new t40p won't suspend in hoary
<ross> mjg59: should i just file a bug?
<cartman>   tr_TR.UTF-8...LC_MONETARY: value of field `int_curr_symbol' does not correspond to a valid name in ISO 4217
<cartman> ah glibc looks borked on breezy
<mjg59> ross: Yeah
<mjg59> ross: You've enabled ACPI_SLEEP?
<jbailey> cartman: Please file that in bugzilla.  Locales ought to be all working just as well as they were in Hoary.
<cartman> jbailey: I will just after dist-upgrade finishes :)
<ross> mjg59: i just installed hoary and wanted it to work
<ross> ok why is backspace deleting words
<mjg59> ross: Edit /etc/default/acpi-support
<ross> mjg59: from the comments i should add ipw2100 too i guess
<mjg59> ross: No, that should be handled automatically
<lupusBE> since breezy I get a lot of errors compiling
<lupusBE> user_group.c:285: warning: pointer targets in passing argument 1 of strlen differ in signedness
<lupusBE> user_group.c:285: warning: pointer targets in passing argument 1 of __builtin_strcmp differ in signedness
<lupusBE> and with xml too
<Treenaks> lupusBE: fix your code ;)
<lupusBE> Treenaks, almost all projects suffer from this :s
<Amaranth> those are just warnings
<Treenaks> Amaranth: still..
<Treenaks> signednedd problems should be fixed
<Treenaks> signedness, too
<Amaranth> sure, but it doesn't stop things from working
<Treenaks> Amaranth: on some archs it does
<Amaranth> they've always done that, this is just the first time gcc has complained
<lupusBE> gdl won't build because of it I think
<Amaranth> nah, that can't be why it won't build
<Amaranth> because those are warnings
<Amaranth> unless ld is failing later because of it
<lupusBE> gdl-dock-layout.c:1371: warning: pointer targets in assignment differ in signedness
<lupusBE> make[2] : *** [gdl-dock-layout.lo]  Error 1
<Treenaks> what are the flags? some way to make warnings fatal?
<mjg59> lupusBE: Either it's building with -Werror, or there's another error further up that's killing the build
<Treenaks> yes..
<Treenaks> -Werror!
* jbailey has a goal of getting Gnome 2.12 to compile with -W -Wall -Werror -Wno-warn =)
<jbailey> err, not no-warn...
* jbailey looks it up again.
<Treenaks> -pedantic ? :P
<seb128> I hope you don't mean "jbailey will bug seb128 with every single build warning" ? :)
<jbailey> -Wno-unused.
<jbailey> Treenaks: pednatic doesn't increase portability.  Missing declarations does.
<Treenaks> jbailey: true
<jbailey> +Fixing
<jbailey> seb128: Nah, I'll send them upstream, probably with patches.
<ross> mjg59: it appears that shutting the lid doesn't cause a sleep. is that the default, or can i make it happen?
<Treenaks> jbailey: why no-unused?
<jbailey> seb128: But I would love to get to where we could generally expect the gnome stuff to build without warnings and enable that as a nice tester to help keep non-primary arch's in decent shape.
<mjg59> ross: That's the default - you can make it happen by fiddling with what /etc/acpi/events/lid calls
<mjg59> But fn+f4 should sleep it
<seb128> jbailey: a GNOME guys is sending patches to fix all the build warning with gcc4 atm
<jbailey> Treenaks: Because it's not a portability increasing warning, it's a code cleanliness warning.
<Treenaks> jbailey: which is good too.. usually
<seb128> jbailey: hurry up if you want to do that too, within 2 weeks he'll have probably reviewed the whole desktop 
<lupusBE> cc1: warnings being treated as errors
<Treenaks> lupusBE: ah: it's using -Werror
<ross> mjg59: would you accept a feature request to add sleep-on-lid?
<jbailey> seb128: If I do it before, it'll possibly be just duplicating work.
<jbailey> And it's not like I have spare time before UDU.
<elmo> who uploaded memtest86+ ?
<seb128> jbailey: should be fine so, look at http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=300667 by example :)
<fabbione> elmo: i did
<elmo> fabbione: why upload it as an ubuntu?  the only remaining diff is the changelog?
* fabbione checks again
<fabbione> elmo: right..
<fabbione> i didn't really plug my brain, but i though that we also wanted to keep track of our previous changelog
<seb128> elmo: gal2.4 gtkhtml3.6 syncs please
<Ben2004uk> "Trainee Software test Analyst" <---- good position for a someone wanting to go into software developement???
<jbailey> seb128: I hope this guy knows what he's doing - some of the casts look a bit odd.
<elmo> seb128: done
<seb128> elmo: thanks
<seb128> jbailey: I think so, he does a lot of QA for GNOME
<jbailey> seb128: 'kay.
<seb128> jbailey: ie it run valgrind on everything :)
* fabbione sighs at lsb
<pitti> elmo: pmount and squid sync, please
<fabbione> 99% of the merges are due to init scripts
<pitti> fabbione: really? for me it's about 20% only
<jbailey> seb128: It's more the shifts between guchar* and char*.  They look inconsistant, and I'm guessing that if they were meant to be used interchangably, there wouldn't need to be a cast.
<elmo> pitti: (I'm assuming you mean to override)
<pitti> elmo: yes
<elmo> pitti: done
<pitti> thanks
<Mithrandir> elmo: the ia32-libs in Debian is built with Debian binary .debs, is it ok to sync that or would you prefer I uploaded one with stuff from Ubuntu?
<elmo> Mithrandir: ia32-libs needs to die in the screaming fires of hell
<elmo> or something
<ross> mjg59: does hoary try and detect laptops and turn on ACPI_SLEEP as required?  or does everyone have to turn it on if they need it
<Mithrandir> elmo: multiarch.
<seb128> jbailey: they have discussed that on IRC IIRC, probably changed for a good reason
* Mithrandir wonders if elmo prefers ia32-libs or multiarch.
<elmo> Mithrandir: given we're trying to use gcc-4 consistently, I think we should probably upload something built with our binaries?
<Mithrandir> elmo: ok, sure.  I'll just hold it off until we've rebuilt a bunch of stuff then.
<elmo> besides, I thought it "built" at build-time nowA?
<Mithrandir> elmo: no, but it's possible to do that if you're on the right arch.  The source needs to be prepared on ia32, but the package wants to build on ia64/amd64.
<elmo> by "built", I mean dpkg -x'ed and mv'ed around
<Mithrandir> yes, that's right, but the binary debs are in the package already.
<Mithrandir> they're just extracted and shaken
<fabbione> we need to get rid of that lsb-base init madness
<fabbione> no wonder things do not work and we don't get proper input from the user
<pitti> fabbione: no, Debian needs to accept it eventually
<elmo> mithrandir: wouldn't it make more sense to apt-get them?  you can assume the buildd has access to a full mirror, I think
<fabbione> elmo: isn't a prerequisite that buildd might not need net access?
<pitti> fabbione: we will need this stuff anyway for things like usplash
<Mithrandir> elmo: for Debian, the build wants to get the packages from sarge and not sid.  It sounds error-prone to me.
<Mithrandir> fabbione: mirror access != net access
<ogra> fabbione, what about a /var/log/init.log ?
<pitti> fabbione: an abstraction for boot messages is a good idea IMHO (okay, the implementation may be broken, but that's another story)
<Mithrandir> fabbione: Debian seemed mostly happy about accepting it if we made it configurable.
<fabbione> ogra: could be an idea given that init scripts are sane. and they are not
<ogra> hmm
<fabbione> Mithrandir: the issue is not configurable or not.. here the issue is how intrusive it is in the init scripts
<fabbione> we are losing a lot of information at boot time
<fabbione> including errors
<pitti> fabbione: indeed, they should be logged somewhere
* pitti remembers reading something about bootlogd in breezy
<fabbione> pitti: they can't be .. that's the problem.. the errors are generated by the init script.. and we are changing them to add lsb
<fabbione> and in some cases of error handling lsb simply fails
<pitti> fabbione: yeah, right, we must restore the logging
<pitti> fabbione: but that should not mean to drop lsb completely
<pitti> we need an abstraction for customizations
<pitti> like usplash, or boot logging, or whatever
<pitti> in fact, boot logging should be easier, not harder, with a proper LSB init script implementation
<mvo> elmo: can you please sync heartbeat from debian? they took our changes
<pitti> fabbione: bah, udev merge is a real pain...
<fabbione> pitti: want to take a look at hotplug? :
<fabbione> :P
<cartman> ok locales bug reported
<cartman> https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9743
<seb128> daniels: around ?
<pitti> dudes, it's a bit early to report upgrading bugs in breezy, isn't it?
<elmo> mvo: done
<mvo> thanks
<Amaranth> what is hoary-changes for?
<Amaranth> err, the repository
<Amaranth> and it's called hoary-updates :)
<ogra> Amaranth, calendar and the like....
<Amaranth> ah, it's for the porn :)
<zyga> mvo: thanks for the explanation :)
<pitti> Amaranth: for truly critical,but non-security releated updates
<mvo> zyga: your welcome :)
* Amaranth wonders if his pbuilder chroot still works
<Amaranth> i'm on breezy and need to make packages for hoary
<ogra> Amaranth, what for ? hoary is stable...
<Amaranth> mozilla firefox locale updates were critical but non-security related?
<Amaranth> ogra: Sure, but gnome-menus has a bug that's fixed in CVS that I need for my menu editor to work.
<Amaranth> And I need to package PyXDG CVS to fix another bug.
<ogra> Amaranth, so do it in breezy
<Amaranth> ogra: Then hoary uses don't get to use my editor.
<Amaranth> err, users
<Amaranth> and GNOME 2.12 will have an editor so what's the point?
<Kamion> chroot shouldn't be hard
<Amaranth> yeah, that's why i was thinking pbuilder
<Amaranth> i had it setup already when i was using hoary, it should still work
<zyga> which package generates sources.list?
<zyga> I've .. once again .. found that contained incorrect entries 
<zyga> it had *.ubuntu.com instead of *.ubuntulinux.org
<Kamion> that's correct
<zyga> Kamion: if failed to sync, also the domain does not belong to us, right?
<Kamion> *.ubuntu.com is generally preferred; the only reason *.ubuntulinux.org exists at all was that we couldn't get *.ubuntu.org
<Kamion> zyga: no, it probably just means you caught it in the middle of mirroring, try again
<zyga> Kamion: will do, thanks
<zyga> mvo: would you accept a patch that adds .cvsignore to various dirs?
<mvo> elmo: please sync eunuchs from debian, they took our changes too. btw, is it ok to ask for single package syncs? or do you prefer them in batches?
<mvo> zyga: yes
<pitti> fabbione: do you enable USB block devices again in 2.6.12?
<elmo> mvo: single is fine
<elmo> mvo: done
<mvo> thanks
<dilinger> pitti: you mean the ub driver, in lieu of usb-storage?
<pitti> yes
<Treenaks> does it work with my mixed USB CD writer/CF reader yet? :)
<zul> hola
<pitti> Zu zul
<pitti> Hi zul, even
<zul> heh how is it going pitti 
<pitti> merge rave...
<zul> fun fun
<fabbione> pitti: no
<pitti> ok
<Mithrandir> pitti: what did you do about the ooo overflow?
<pitti> Mithrandir: it's patched, and I tested it, but the new package fails for me (also includes new Xhosa translations)
<pitti> Mithrandir: I have to talk with doko, but he's travelling ATM
<Mithrandir> pitti: ok, once we have the ia32 package in, I'd love to get the amd64 package in too.
<pitti> Mithrandir: okay, I ping you
<Mithrandir> cool
<pitti> Mithrandir: both should be fixed in a commmon USN
<mjg59> ross: At the moment, everyone needs to twiddle it
<Kamion> elmo: sync usb-discover 1.03 from incoming, please?
* Kamion pipes stuff through iconv -f UTF-8 -t ISO-8859-1 | iconv -f ISO-8859-2 -t UTF-8
<Kamion> so evil
<Mithrandir> heh
<Mithrandir> UTF-8 is teh evil, I say. *hides*
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: what are you? Japanese? :)
<Kamion> Mithrandir: hm? the problem wouldn't have arisen in the first place if everyone used UTF-8 :P
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: you know, we have three letters more than the ASCII world.
<Kamion> this was a classic "ISO-8859-2 accidentally treated as ISO-8859-1" problem
<Mithrandir> Kamion: it might not have arised if pigs could fly either.
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: about the same here in .nl
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: you have actual extra letters, not just accented ones?
* Kamion goes round stapling wings onto pigs
<Kamion> Mithrandir: ij ligature?
<Mithrandir> Kamion: I don't know dutch. :)
<elmo> Kamion: done
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: well, no.. we can usually live without the one we have () by ubstituting it with "ij"
<Kamion> elmo: thanks
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: substituting  with ae kinda works,  can't really be done, so it's done with oe,  is aa, so that's ok-ish.
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: we're using them in every second or third word, though
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: same with "", but as most keyboards are US anyway, and we've used "ij" since the typewriter was invented (even though some of those had  keys), "ij" is 'good enough'
<Treenaks> though it breaks most capitalization stuff (IJsselmeer, not Ijsselmeer ;))
* pitti finally tests new udev, rebooting, brb
<zyga> mvo: ping
<mvo> zyga: pong
<zyga> mvo: I'm trying to make .desktop.in files correct by using prefix instead of hardcoded path; still @prefix@ does not get expanded
<zyga> mvo: also g-s-p.desktop was not included in Makefile.am (fixed)
<mvo> zyga: uh, thanks
<zyga> any insigth on how to get @prefix@ into .desktop.in files?
<jbailey> zyga: Using autoconf?
<zyga> jbailey: yes
<zul> why not sed?
<jbailey> zul: Probably because he's set the prefix with autoconf. =)
<zul> that could be it
<mvirkkil> molliukko: Kato Mikko. Moro ;-)
<zyga> jbailey: Exec=gksudo @prefix@/gnome-software-properties
<zyga> this does not work
<jbailey> zyga: Make sure you're building it in AC_OUTPUT in your configure.ac
<zyga> checking
<zyga> jbailey: actually u-m has configure.in (that's okay?)
<zyga> jbailey: It's not built in AC_OUTPUT
<jbailey> Sure.  configure.{in,ac} are fine.  You usually want to make sure that you've updated to autoconf 2.5x at least, though.
<jbailey> Older versions work, but most people will assume you're using the newer stuff.
<zyga> 2.53
<jbailey> zyga: How is the file being build from the .in now?
<zyga> jbailey: it's not, the in builds one of the makefiles
<zyga> jbailey: that in turn builds all desktop files
<jbailey> zyga: Hmm..  You can either choose to sed it in the Makefile, or have configure AC_OUTPUT it.
<zyga> www.suxx.pl/update-manager/update-manager--zk/
<zyga> (I really dislike autotools :P)
<jbailey> If you have configure so it, you can all of the AC_SUBSTs done for free on it.
<jbailey> Otherwise the generated file has to depend on config.log or something like that to get incremental builds to work righ.t
<zyga> jbailey: I'll try to make it working, thanks
<jbailey> 'k. =)
<zyga> jbailey: It works :>
<jbailey> zyga: Cool. =)
<zyga> now I need to choose right prefix
<zyga> I want /usr/bin
<zyga> and @prefix expands to /usr in my case
<zyga> thats execprefix?
<zyga> bindir
<zyga> hmm :/
<zyga> strange bindir got expanded to ${exec_prefix}
<zul> huh? debconf has a gui wizard thingy?
<Zomb> how much does a complete hoary mirror (i386 plus amd64) need on disk space? less than 25GiB?
<Mithrandir> Zomb: no source?
<Zomb> not yet
<Zomb> I expect something in the regions of Sid, right?
<Mithrandir> Zomb: warty + hoary amd64, i386, powerpc, source is around 50GB
<Mithrandir> so 25GB should be enough
<elmo> YOWSER
<Zomb> ok, thanks. I will try to get the permission to create a mirror on our university (DFN, Germany)
<elmo> gnome is so not happy if your clock gets reset to 1904
<Treenaks> elmo: metacity breaks right?
<elmo> Treenaks: _everything_ breaks
<Treenaks> (because it works with timestamps)
<elmo> you can't even login with the fail safe session
<Mithrandir> "you live in the wrong century.  go away."
<zyga> please update to 2005 ;-)
<elmo> Mithrandir: I wouldn't mind so much if the error messages said that
<elmo> instead you get crap like "blah blah -3 blah blah"
<Mithrandir> hm, the gnome panel should really do mosx-style panel magnification
<Mithrandir> so if you point at an applet, it'll be zoomed
<elmo> has anyone else got a powerbook running hoary?
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: like KDE does too
<jbailey> zyga: Did you solve evrything you needed?
<Mithrandir> elmo: Kamion probably?
<zyga> jbailey: no
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: they do for the systray too?
<elmo> Mithrandir: probably..
<zyga> jbailey: I don't understand why bindir expands to ${exec_prefix}/bin
<Treenaks> Mithrandir: no idea
<zyga> (or why ${exec_prefix} does not expand)
<zyga> I'm reading configure (no .in) right now
<Mithrandir> zyga: because bindir by default is \${exec_prefix}
<zyga> # Installation directory options.
<zyga> # These are left unexpanded so users can "make install exec_prefix=/foo"
<zyga> # and all the variables that are supposed to be based on exec_prefix
<jbailey> zyga: Because you can override exec_prefix at build time.  It's expecting to do the substitutions in a shell script.
<zyga> jbailey: so the bottom line?
<jbailey> zyga: If you want to preserve that flexibility, you might be stuck with sed'ing it in the Makefile.
<zyga> jbailey: build time == substituting stuff like @prefix
<zyga> jbailey: it's all python
<jbailey> I'd need to be starting at the going to make anything other than general recommendations.
<zyga> I'm getting the impression that autotools are not helping here :>
<jbailey> zyga: right.  You're now looking for substitutions beyond what are usually provided.
<jbailey> zyga: So you need make to expand the variables out completely.
<jbailey> zyga: That to me spells sed love.
<zyga> I'm going to do it in a lame and easy way
<zyga> @prefi@/bin is just as good for me
<jbailey> And trust that the people using your software generally aren't advanced autotools users? =)
<zyga> jbailey: well @prefix@/bin is far better than /usr/bin/ don't you think?
<zyga> (that was there before)
<zyga> jbailey: since I'm not even novice auto* developer that's okay ;-)
<zyga> jbailey: er... 
<zyga> it's broken again
<zyga> while @prefix@ is expanded special .desktop notation used by i18n is not 
<zyga> so it's even more broken this time
<jbailey> zyga: Right. =)
<zyga> ok I'm not qualified to fix this --- reverting changes
<jbailey> zyga: What bug are you trying to fix?
<zyga> jbailey: update-manager
<zyga> it has lots of absolute paths
<mvo> zyga: sorry for not helping you with it, I'm busy with other sutff right now. I'll have a look later (hopefully)
<zyga> mvo: I understand - you have more than one program to think about :-)
<mvo> zyga: yes :)
<seb128> elmo: gtkspell sync please
<elmo> seb128: done
<Keybuk> pitti: there's no particular reason to remove the alias on mom bugs, she'll do it herself if they're resolved
<mdz> elmo: ?
<ogra> Keybuk, can i send your mom to upstream devs that added new features which break all my patches to beat them with a stick ? or do i need to open a ferature request bug for that ?
<ogra> -r
<mdz> elmo: we had that problem back with warty/hoary and I thought you fixed it
<seb128> elmo: thanks
<seb128> hey mdz 
<elmo> mdz: I did
<elmo> mdz: the script had a hardcoded 'warty' and I was only checking for 'hoary's when creating breezy
<elmo> mdz: it's all good now
<mdz> ah
<seb128> mdz: bugzilla ignores my UNCONFIRMED to upstream changes without saying anything :/
<elmo> (tho "fixed" is definitely needing scare quotes)
<mdz> seb128: I saw in #canonical; I can't fix it, but maybe kiko can
<|QuaD-> :)/join #canonical
<seb128> mdz: k
<seb128> mdz: kiko said he needs the patches
<pitti> Keybuk: ah, I thought you did that manually, so I wanted to help you :-)
<pitti> Keybuk: okay, then I can skip that in the future
<pitti> Hi mdz 
<mdz> morning
<mdz> seb128: I will send him everything
<Keybuk> pitti: nah, mom explicitly checks whether the merge-XXX alias is on a resolved bug, and if so, removes it
<seb128> mdz: thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: did you extend bugzilla.py for that?  I should merge your changes
<Keybuk> yeah, I did a bunch of stuff to find aliases I think
<Keybuk> there's a clear_alias function I added, at least
<mdz> Kamion: that debbugs.py encoding crash is stalling debzilla; if it's not something obvious, let me know so that I can arrange for it to press on
<seb128> elmo: orbit2 sync please
<elmo> seb128: ugh
<elmo>  [dpkg-source output:]  dpkg-source: error: file orbit2_2.12.1.orig.tar.gz has size 970445 instead of expected 961277
<Kamion> mdz: ok, looking - I may only be able to fix that particular file for now, though
<elmo> seb128: i.e. debian and ubuntu orig.tar.gz mismatch
<Kamion> mdz: (I have a shouting child ten feet to my left, kind of impairs concentration)
<seb128> elmo: hum, it that conflicting and need to be fixed now ? or can we cancel it ?
<elmo> seb128: we can't override it, we'll have to either, upload same version as <foo>ubuntu<n> built with our orig.tar.gz, or upload debian's .tar.gz as a different version number :(
<seb128> elmo: can we wait on the new version ? there is a new upstream, debian should have it soon
<elmo> seb128: sure, if you want
<seb128> k, let's do that
<seb128> thanks
<fabbione> re
* Keybuk boggles at the alml changelog
<mdz> thom: portmap mangles its /etc/default file on upgrades from hoary->breezy
<fabbione> jbailey: any good news for me?
<fabbione> mdz: ?
<fabbione> i did that merge..
<mdz> fabbione: thom wrote the postinst code though
<mdz> I assume you just carried it over
<fabbione> mdz: i had to change that too
<mdz> oh
<fabbione> the merge was messy
<mdz> fabbione: on my system, I run an NFS server, so I had #ARGS...
<fabbione> because of ARGS/OPTIONS and addition of debconf
<mdz> it changed it to ARGS=
<fabbione> mdz: hmmmm weird!
<mdz> i.e., changed it to listen only on localhost
<fabbione> i did test the upgrade locally
<fabbione> commenting ARGS means listening to all ports
<fabbione> ohhhh did you have more than localhost?
<mdz> I have: ARGS="-i 127.0.0.1"
<mdz> it changed it to: #ARGS="-i 127.0.0.1"
<mdz> and then I got a conffile prompt from dpkg
<fabbione> from what version did you upgrade?
<jbailey> fabbione: Yes, found my thinko.  Shows up on ppc64 too.
<mdz> Preparing to replace portmap 5-7ubuntu3 (using .../portmap_5-10ubuntu1_i386.deb) ...
<fabbione> mdz: ok.. than the problem is the entire debconf management and the fact that the file is marked as conffile
<mdz> elmo: my botched kubuntu-meta upload was rejected; I re-uploaded it with the proper target distribution and that one hasn't been accepted; do I need to bump the version?
<fabbione> too messy :/
<mdz> fabbione: two releases later and fam is still causing us pain :-(
<Kamion> mdz: ok, I've fixed up that bug, but I don't really know how it got that way in the first place, so it's possible it will happen again
<elmo> mdz: I don't see the second upload anywhere?
<fabbione> mdz: ok.. i am going to do something drastic than...
<mdz> -rw-rw----  1 mdz mdz 221 2005-04-15 08:01 ../kubuntu-meta_0.41_source.upload
<fabbione> mdz: we will need to allign the stuff with Debian
<mdz> f75081f315a37d8880aac94966dbd54f  ../kubuntu-meta_0.41_source.changes
<mdz> Kamion: thanks
<mdz> Kamion: I'll let you know, since debzilla mails me every 15 minutes when it happens
<Kamion> mdz: I do at least know how to fix it up now
<Kamion> sorry, hadn't realised it was blocking so much, I thought it was a one-time thing
<elmo> mdz: sure, but it's not on jackass
<elmo> did you send it to debian? :)
<mdz> elmo: no...I'll reupload, I supposemizar:[/tmp/kubuntu-meta-0.41]  cat ../kubuntu-meta_0.41_source.upload
<mdz> Successfully uploaded ../kubuntu-meta_0.41.dsc to upload.ubuntu.com.
<mdz> Successfully uploaded ../kubuntu-meta_0.41.tar.gz to upload.ubuntu.com.
<mdz> Successfully uploaded ../kubuntu-meta_0.41_source.changes to upload.ubuntu.com.
<mdz> uploaded again, this time with FEELING
<elmo> mdz: that worked
<elmo> mdz: ah, ok, so here's what happened - you reuploaded before the first one had been rejected from queue/unchecked
<mdz> ah.  I saw it complain in REPORT and assumed it was safe then
<giskard> hi, there is a *-universe channel?
<mdz> giskard: #ubuntu-motu
<elmo> that was SKIP, which is entirely obsolete and pre-dates poppy.. I'll drop it down
<giskard> mdz thanks
<mdz> can anyone think of a reason why we shouldn't un-break that moronic module-init-tools damage where modprobe.conf supersedes modprobe.d?
<mdz> it's constantly screwing people over
<fabbione> mdz: i found at least 3 reasons why portmap screwed...
<fabbione> fixing them right now...
<zyga> is there any artwork # ?
<GheRivero> res
<daniels> seb128: wassup
<guru3> is this like the smartest ubuntu ppl here? cause i have a really tough error :/
<seb128> daniels: your new dbus doesn't build with the current pyrex, I've a patch from fedora for pyrex ... do you want me to upload it ? 
<seb128> daniels: gcc4 build issue
<daniels> seb128: 0.32??
<seb128> daniels: yep
<daniels> please don't upload 0.32
<seb128> daniels: I don't, I'm speaking about pyrex
<daniels> unless you want to rename the dbus-1 package to dbus, but keep the init script as dbus-1
<daniels> oh, cool
<daniels> yeah, uploading for pyrex would be great, thanks
<seb128> daniels: I want 0.32 for gnomevfs's upstream, they are working to merge FC4 changes for hal 0.5 to gnomevfs
<guru3> hmm, i guess i should just spit out the problem: the compileall.py script segfaults in the middle of dpkg :<
<seb128> daniels: and since the guy use breezy, he was looking for dbus 0.32/hal 0.5 debs for that .. pitti pointed them to me :)
<mdz> Keybuk: please stop filing merge bugs for universe packages
<seb128> daniels: k
<Keybuk> mdz: I can't
<Keybuk> you'll have to wait
<Keybuk> and be patient :)
<mdz> ??
<mdz> Keybuk: why can't you?
<Keybuk> cause I can't get onto rookery to update the code right now
<fabbione> jeeeee this postinst is SICK
* fabbione scratches his head
<Keybuk> Mark's network abhors ssh connections
<Keybuk> at least, from my house
<Keybuk> I'm mid-sync so when my ssh keys arrive, will be able to
<fabbione> mdz: portmap will take a while.. postinst is totally insane
<elmo> ouch hoary source + powerpc is 21Gb
<daniels> seb128: heh.  i need to catch up for pitti when we're in the same $tz; when do you guys fly out of europe?
<seb128> daniels: we flight from .de tomorrow evening UTC
<mdz> a good rule of thumb: if you don't know how to modify sources.list, you probably shouldn't be running breezy right now
<seb128> you say that for me ? :p
<mdz> seb128: no, just reading ubuntu-users
<Mithrandir> mdz: but it's NEW and SHINY crack!!oneone.
* Mithrandir hides.
<seb128> people don't abuse the list with bugs todays ? We don't do enough changes apparently :p
<mdz> Mithrandir: yeah, everyone is like "I heard breezy has this and that feature, where are they?"
<mdz> where is the splash screen?
<Mithrandir> mdz: it'll FLY!
<jnc> the racing stripes?
<Mithrandir> mdz: yeah, we've just been hiding all those features in another repo while we were developing hoary.
<Mithrandir> or something
<Simira> mdz: yes, where is it? And when can I download the release candidate?
<Mithrandir> Simira: in about five months.
<Mithrandir> :)
<ogra> did i hear breezy-backports ?
<Simira> Mithrandir: hey, you go shopping, don't interfere with my conversations!
<\sh> morning ogra
* Mithrandir twaps ogra 
<ogra> heh
<fabbione> HUMPF
* fabbione seeks advices
<Simira> fabbione: always tell someone where you are going
<fabbione> ok problem:
<fabbione> package foo uses debconf to handle a conffile
<Simira> fabbione: don't forget your wedding anniversary
<fabbione> at the same time the maintainer marked the file as such
<fabbione> creating a royal mess with dpkg
<fabbione> because one tends to modify the other rants that has been modified
<fabbione> killing debconf seems like a good idea
<fabbione> keeping debconf means implementing a lot of logic behind
<mdz> pitti fixed a number of such problems in hoary, iirc
<ogra> why does it modify it anyway  ? if it was modified, dont touch it...else, overwrite it...
<fabbione> because the template has a meaning that doesn't match what postinst is supposed to do properly
<fabbione> ogra: it was a mistake from the original maintainer :(
<ogra> hmm
<fabbione> it's like a loop that needs to be broken
<mdz> Mithrandir: how much work would oo.o2-amd64 be?
<Mithrandir> mdz: not too much, but it's not stable ATM, AIUI.
<fabbione> so anybody wants to suggest the solution?
<elmo> *whine*
<elmo> I thouht oo.o2 was meant to be all singing all 64-bit dancing?
<mdz> elmo: it is meant to be, but in the event that it does not actually become so, we need a fallback
<Mithrandir> elmo: yeah, supposed to be, but Not There Yet, or so it seems.
<astharot> ciao
<fabbione> mdz: when you wrote the portmap patch for -i, did you make it so that it can resolve hostnames?
<elmo> udu wiki's going down for a reboot
* fabbione brain is melting
<Simira> fabbione: already in .au?
<Simira> :p
<ogra> heh
<eruin> anyone here used the rhythbox branch olemke@core-dump.info--2005 ?
* jnc O_o
<trulux> wokka wokka
<trulux> some toolchain work:
<trulux> http://pearls.tuxedo-es.org/toolchain/textrel_hoary_20050415.log
<trulux> http://pearls.tuxedo-es.org/toolchain/rwx_mappings_hoary_20050415.log
<fabbione> Simira: eheh no
<fabbione> mdz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/portmap_5-10ubuntu2_i386.deb
<fabbione> mdz: mind to test it on your machine?
<fabbione> it seems to work fine here
* mvo goes to play some hockey
<aj> hockey!
<mvo> aj: yeah!
* aj so should've gotten into hockey
* mvo really needs to go now
<ogra> aj, let mvo teach you at UdU ;)
<aj> ogra: i've looked at the schedule... when?? :)
<fabbione> aj: at night :)
<Mithrandir> between the mao sessions.
<ogra> heh, true, sice we all have to hold four BOFs this time
<fabbione> ogra: are you coming to UdD?
<aj> fabbione: but... but... the drinking...?
<fabbione> aj: that too :P
<Mithrandir> aj: between drinking, mao and drinking.
<ogra> fabbione, i wouldnt let you smoke alone dude ;)
<fabbione> ogra: aha rocking!
<ogra> yeah
* fabbione feels pretty confortanble with portmap changes and uploads...
<fabbione> heck it's breezy.. if i can't break it hard... who else can
<ogra> fabbione, go go go !!
<fabbione> done
<ogra> :)
<ogra> lets see if my NFS still works after UdU :)
<fabbione> ogra: ehehhe
<fabbione> i think it's time to play with AOE and GFS
<fabbione> i didn't work the last 3 days for nothing :)
<fabbione> it's almost dinner time :)
<trulux> fabbione: same here, but now I'm back to work, I'm still not a Jedi in Knights of the Old Republic (Kotor) :)
<fabbione> jbailey: glibc passed that point...
<fabbione> jbailey: still building tho
<jbailey> fabbione: Nice!
<fabbione> yeps
<jbailey> fabbione: We just need to inflict NPTL love on you after. =)
<fabbione> if everything goes ok, i can open the gates for sparc :)
<jbailey> Cool.
<fabbione> jbailey: let me finish to compile these glibc
<jbailey> I wonder how lamont's doing?
<fabbione> jbailey: he is stocked at gcc-4 :(
<fabbione> and doko is on the air
<fabbione> jbailey: once i start building breezy, you can freely use the chroot to build the new glibc
<fabbione> HMMMM
<fabbione> something is changed...
<fabbione> jbailey: do you know if the new libc6 respects the ipv6 RFC
<fabbione> ?
<fabbione> it appears that all the new connections (ssh at least) start first in ipv4
<fabbione> according to RFC it should always attempt ipv6 first and fallback to ipv4
<jbailey> Hmm, I thought it did.  I know that ipv6 generally works right for me.
<fabbione> it is 99.9% the new libc6
<fabbione> i will need to try after a reboot
<fabbione> but same ssh version on 2 different machines hoary/breezy
<fabbione> hoary works as expected
<fabbione> breezy no
<jbailey> Joy.
<jbailey> ;)
<jbailey> Best bet is to stuff that into bugzilla, my friend.  I'm not setup to troubleshoot that right at the moment ( have a completely differnet set of windows open )
<fabbione> jbailey: the change is easy to isolate if it is what i think'
<fabbione> jbailey: i am :)
<fabbione> jbailey: i did it once already
<fabbione> they might have reverted the changes to the resolver
<fabbione> in that case it is enough to reorder it
<fabbione> Kamion: ping?
<jcole> hey dudes
<jcole> how can i do a net install of ubuntu (minimal disk size)
<jcole> for debian, we currently use the business card iso and insert a preseed file into it
<jcole> ubuntu is pretty much seeded already, i'm just looking for a minimally configured ubuntu where i can insert preseed info such as proxy and packages to install... just like we do with debian
<jcole> should i just remaster the install cd?
<jcole> the silence ;) makes me think that net install of ubuntu is not possible (yet)
<mdke> jcole, i don't think there is a minimal install cd
<mdke> you can do a minimal installation from the normal cd
<jcole> mdke: ya, we provide install isos for the employees here for different distros (suse,rh/fedora,debian,etc)... we try to make these install isos as small ass possible (sometimes to even fit on a floppy) and net install the rest
<mdke> jcole, i saw a doc that might help you
<mdke> jcole, hang on
<jcole> mdke: cool
<mdke> i have to turn on my laptop to get the email tho so i'll be a minute
<mdke> jcole, http://marc.herbert.free.fr/linux/win2linstall.html <-- might not be exactly what you want but it might help, and it has a section on Ubuntu
<hawke_> Is there a page, similar to Debian's packages.qa.debian.org that describes why newer versions of stuff isn't in Ubuntu?
<jvw> hawke_: ubuntu doesn't have testing, and afaik no automated propagation from any repository... so there aren't such reasons except 'nobody has done so (yet)' ?
<hawke_> jvw: Ah, I thought universe was automatically importing from Debian.  Thanks
<ogra> hawke_, there is not much to describe, we pull the newes SW from debian at the begin of each development process...this gets updated util freeze....afterwards there are only bugfixes until release....then it starts all over again...
<ogra> s/newes/newest
<\sh> guys, kdebindings is not in the trees, but http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/buildLogs/k/kdebindings/4:3.4.0-0ubuntu1/kdebindings_4:3.4.0-0ubuntu1_20050329-1309-i386-successful
<\sh> for hoary
<\sh> how was it..who ate it? ,-)
<\sh> because it's on the mirrors: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/k/kdebindings/
<ogra> \sh,  apt-cache showsrc kdebindings
<ogra> Binary: libkjsembed-dev, libsmokekde-dev, libkjsembed1, libsmokeqt-dev, kjscmd, libsmokekde1, python-dcop, libsmokeqt1
<ogra> its all there
<\sh> argl
<\sh> yeah
<\sh> ogra: ok...red card for amu and myself ;)
<ogra> \sh, nooo, only a bit for getting the hint from a gnome guy probably ;)
<\sh> ogra: I love u too :)
<ogra> heh
<\sh> ogra: prost :)
<Mithrandir> hm
<ogra> ?
<Mithrandir> #-motu :)
<Mithrandir> since it's a universe package
<dilinger> thom: ping
<Mitario> hi everyone
<tseng> hm sounds like inotify gamin beagle might all work for breezy
<tseng> rock on.
<mjc> tseng, be nice, I'm fighting with mono on amd64 currently =P
<mjc> er, it would be nice
<tseng> are you familiar with svn
<mjc> yep
<tseng> dpkg-buildpkg?
<tseng> http://pkg-mono.alioth.debian.org/
<mjc> seen that
<tseng> 1.1 testing stuff is up there
<tseng> you can try grabbing it and building if youd like.
<mjc> been failing
#ubuntu-devel 2005-04-27
<mjc> I'm playing with serel also
<|QuaD-> tseng: cool :)
<tseng> DV commited a inotify patch, its supposed to pass the regression tests now
<|QuaD-> dv?
<bluefoxicy> fabbione:  need any info on bug #9723?
<bluefoxicy> It's gonna be a bitch of a problem, because I've had it reported to me by a few users who have gentoo or ubuntu on the same exact model that the stuff that's broke for me actually works
<bluefoxicy> :(
<fabbione> bluefoxicy: probably.. i didn't look at it yet
<bluefoxicy> ah, 'cause it's assigned to you :)
<bluefoxicy> heh
<bluefoxicy> I should get best buy to support linux
<bluefoxicy> "Log onto STAR and see what the problem was"  ". . . customer could not operate USB camera."  "Resolution?"  "No drivers for camera, data gathered, dmesg logs shipped to bugzilla of distro and to LKML"
<mjc> anyone have a serel package?
<fabbione> bluefoxicy: yes... it's assigned to me, but i have been awake for 20 hours and i am too tired to think straight right now
<bluefoxicy> alright, tomorrow then.
<fabbione> good night
<ogra> night fabbione 
<mvo> elmo: can you please sync findutils?
<mjc> tseng, pkg-mono thinks I'm building 1.0.5 but I'm building 1.1.6
<zyga> re
<CarlK> should I bugzilla this?  nfs warning: mount version older than kernel
<zyga> CarlK: what are you mounting? I've seen the same message flood my logs
<mjc> edited the changelog and removed the patches in the patch dir
<mjc> seems to be running currently
<CarlK> 3 day old ubuntu box is the client, 4 year old 2.4.9-ac7  NFS server
<CarlK> is the current ubuntu still called hoary, or did that go away when it went... um... stable?
<zyga> CarlK: similar setup, I've got 2.4.26 slack
<ogra> CarlK, the name stays...even if its dead in 18 months ;)
<CarlK> groovy
<ogra> like wartys name does...
<CarlK> oh yeah...
<CarlK> ok, hoary boxes on both sides, still get "nfs warning: mount version older than kernel"
<CarlK> hmm, one is still from beta
<ogra> hmm, amu ? 
<trulux> any python hacker around?
* trulux grins
<ajmitch_> trulux: what's needed?
<trulux> ajmitch: you're going to reveal my surprises for Breezy.... a port of redhat-config-* tools to Ubuntu
<trulux> of course not those who do ame job as current ones in the gst packages
<ajmitch_> trulux: well you're the one who revealed it ;)
<trulux> ajmitch: I just mean that you were making me *revealing* it, and no, this is not intended to be sent to bash.org
<|QuaD-> i think i am missing something in this conversation, i am not understanding anything
<ajmitch_> |QuaD-: don't worry
<trulux> ajmitch: yeah, it's not my best day
<trulux> just I need to sleep
* CarlK eats popcorn
<trulux> CarlK: haha
<trulux>   File "/home/lorenzo/proyectos/ubuntu/redhat-logviewer/src/LogBuffer.py", line 117, in insert_into_buffer_at_offset
<trulux>     theiconv = iconv_codec.open(self.codeset, 'iso-8859-1')
<trulux> AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'open'
<ajmitch_> trulux: want me to take a look? :)
<trulux> ajmitch: only if you don't have other things to do
<trulux> http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/config-tools/redhat-logviewer.html
<doko> good morning all
<Mithrandir> hi doko
<Mithrandir> you're in .au now?
<doko> yes, arrived two hours ago
<ajmitch_> morning doko
<ajmitch_> trulux: seems to have changed in the cvs version
<doko> pitti, mvo, seb128: still around?
<mjc> hmm, how do I go about turning off gpg checking for a certain repo? the meeby mono repo has no gpg, I don't think
<schweeb> mjc: check the apt manpage/documentation
<mjc> haven't found anything
<mjc> ah here
<mjc> /usr/share/doc/apt/examples/configure-index.gz
<mjc> hmm still nothing to turn off stuff
* mjc keeps hunting
<ogra> doko, they're all packing their bags ;)
<ajmitch> ogra: when do you fly out?
<ogra> tomorrow night
<ogra> 5 to 12 :)
<ajmitch> fun :)
<ogra> yeah
<schweeb> it's either gonna be really dead in here the next couple weeks, or really really busy :)
<ogra> schweeb, at least in the UdU week we'll have net access...
<schweeb> :)
<ajmitch> thankfully
<ogra> so we'll be around from time to time:)
* ajmitch ought to remember to pack the wireless card
<ogra> ajmitch, yes, dont forget that
<zul> its going to be dead because everyone is going to be on airline flights
<schweeb> I'll be stuck here!
<ogra> yeah, you fly two days from here :)
<schweeb> but I can't IRC from work anymore :(
<zul> how come?
<schweeb> it just got blocked
<ogra> even if its only 22h i start here at sat. and arrive on mon.
<ogra> weird TZ crossing ;)
<zul> bloody long flight
<schweeb> I gotta figure out something to do while I work at Chrysler... there are proxies, but I just have to find them
<ogra> zul, i'm a strong smoker....
<ogra> i'll die i guess
<zul> heh...cant smoke on airplanes
<schweeb> haha
<schweeb> you're screwed
<ogra> yep
<schweeb> it's a good time to start the quitting process!
<zul> or smoke a lot before going on the airplane
<schweeb> could just buy some patches
<ogra> thats the idea....
<zul> that isnt any fun
<ogra> nope, but better then going mad
<zul> id pay to see that
<ogra> zul, sorry, no videocam :)
<zul> dang
<schweeb> yea, I'd like to see him go off on a stewardess
<ogra> i'd tape it for you, really
<ogra> lol
<zul> i puked on a stewardess once
<schweeb> "my beer is warm, bitch!"
<zul> when i was a kid...probably too much info
<schweeb> hehe
<ogra> *g*
<zul> eww...why am i listening to dr dre
<schweeb> good question.
* schweeb throws on some Nine Inch Nails :)
<mjc> http://325i.org/media/bootcharts/
<mjc> my bootcharts still stink
<zul> nah...iron maiden
<mjc> mono-1.1.6 doesn't build on amd64. poo
<schweeb> really?  I thought they touted that it actually worked on amd64
<schweeb> if I read the release notes right
<mjc> using buildpackage
<mjc> soemthing's possibly not right with the configuration stuffs
<mjc> anyone doing boot process speedup stuff around?
<queuetue> Hi, all.  I've got a running ubuntu hoary Athlon system, and I pulled the drives and put them into a new Athlon 64 system... and the disks get errors - buffer I/O on logical block 0...  I can boot the system with DSL cd just fine, and mount, fsck, manipulate the disks just fine, no errors.  But I try to boot ubuntu, and the disk errors come back.  Does anyone have a clue?
<Burgundavia> queuetue, #ubuntu for help please
<queuetue> Actually, I tried there first, and I thought it might take someone at the developer level  to answer the question...  But if it's not possible to get help here, I'll go elsewhere.
<Mithrandir> when the kernel has started loading or at the grub stage?
<queuetue> Mithrandir, After loading - Immediately after "starting Ubuntu" or "Welcome to Ubuntu"... Forget exact string.
<Mithrandir> ok
<Mithrandir> sounds like a kernel bug.
<Mithrandir> what kind of motherboard do you have?
<queuetue> MSI K8N Neo4 Platinum/SLI
<queuetue> (It's Nforce 4 SLI based, if that helps)
<Mithrandir> hmm
<Mithrandir> others report they have it working "with a little work", which can mean _anything_
<queuetue> Mithrandir, WHat direction would that work take?  I don't mind experimenting, but I'm at a loss as to where I should even start.
<Mithrandir> queuetue: I'd try booting with acpi=off, noapic, nolapic and any combination of those
<Mithrandir> also, does the 32 bit live CD work?
<queuetue> Mithrandir, I don't have on on hand, and no cd-burner (excet the one on the MSI) so I can't check atm.
<queuetue> All three does not do it...  If all three do not fix it, is there valeu in trying other combos?
<Mithrandir> not really :/
<Mithrandir> I'm leaving for Australia in a couple of minutes, so I can't really help you more; sorry.
<queuetue> Mithrandir, Ok, can you point me towards some topics to research?  (if not, good trip!)
<Mithrandir> queuetue: I think there might be some stuff on the wiki -- wiki.ubuntu.com
<Mithrandir> sorry about not being more specific.
<daniels> in general, nforce4 seems to be fine
<daniels> i've never had a problem with my nf4-sli board
<queuetue> daniels, Would it matter that this is an install that started on 32-bit and then the disks were migrated?
<queuetue> I thought AMD64 was back-compatable...
<daniels> it is in theory
<daniels> i've never tried it
<queuetue> daniels, Any way  you can think of for me to install a "proper" amd64 kernel withotu being able to boot (although can access disks fine from DSL)
<queuetue> Could I just chroot an use apt?
<daniels> yeah, you could just chroot
<queuetue> How do people even *work* on windows machines? :)
<queuetue> The lack of flexibility mus be stifling.
<zenwhen> queuetue, if you were born in a ten foot room and never left it, you would be satisfied with your situation.
<zenwhen> as such windows users who have never tried an open source operating system are also satisfied.
<zenwhen> the literally don't know they are constrained.
<queuetue> Ok, the chroot has worked - do I need to switch repositories?  I'm not sure how to "do 64" on ubuntu...
<erich> Any hints on how to get Java 1.5 working again?
<cc> has anyone here successfully compiled qemu with gcc4? are there required patches, and if so, would love to be pointed to them; thanks
<fabbione> morning
<robitaille> good evening!  it has been very quiet around here tonight
<pitti> *wave*
<ajmitch> hi pitti 
<pitti> hey ajmitch
<zyga> hey everyone :)
<robitaille> hi!
<zyga> wow, new firefox security edition is out
<zyga> 1.0.3
<robitaille> a new firefox means a lot of questions in the mailing list:  "where is Firefox 1.0.3 in Hoary?".  Similar to Warty and Firefox 1.0
<Burgundavia> already seen a few
<Burgundavia> almost makes it enough to just put it there, just to make them be quiet
<zyga> is hoary going to get it as a part of hoary-updates?
<desrt> 'security edition'?
<zyga> desrt: bugfix release really
<zyga> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/known-vulnerabilities.html
<desrt> heh
<robitaille> I believe most of the bug fixes in 1.0.3 are already in Hoary's firefox (from a comment from Thom a while back)
<zyga> pretty ugly bugs were fixed
<desrt> holy crap
<desrt> javascript has lambda?
<zyga> desrt: err.. no?
<Burgundavia> robitaille, then bumb the number, just to make people happy
<desrt> it does
<desrt> http://www.mozilla.org/security/announce/mfsa2005-33.html
<desrt> or at least the mozilla people think it does :)
<zyga> desrt: I'm reading that ATM
<zyga> desrt: I think they mean something different than what you and I think ;] 
<zyga> anonymous function
<desrt> i mean the lambda that ...
<zyga> hmm okaaay ;] 
<desrt> ya. that's the lambda i mean
<zyga> :)
* zyga mistook lambda for closure
<desrt> i don't imagine you get partial application with javascript :P
<desrt> although you can use lambda as a basis for closures
<zyga> desrt: partial application?
<desrt> \x -> func arg x
<desrt> ya.. say like you have some function
<desrt> plus x y = x + y
<zyga> ah
<desrt> you can partially apply it
<zyga> let's use lisp notatnion - it's easier to read
<desrt> (ie: give it a single argument
<desrt> (plus 2)
<desrt> then you have a function that takes 1 argument and adds 2 to it
<zyga> desrt: that's a closure, no?
<desrt> the act of giving 1 argument to a 2-argument function (and in general, n arguments to an m-argument function n<m) is called partial application
<desrt> and it's a way of generating closures
<zyga> :-)
<zyga> I see, I didn't know that term but I understand the thing it does
<desrt> so, the idea is that any language that has lambda supports partial application
<desrt> say you have some function f x y
<desrt> you might not be able to say (f 5)
<desrt> but you can always say \y -> f 5 y
<zyga> and call the result that with the remaining argument
<desrt> exactly
<zyga> :-)
<zyga> robitaille: does ubuntu use vanilla firefox?
<desrt> hell no
<robitaille> zyga,  no
<desrt> ubuntu's firefox is so greatly patched that they're not even allowed to use the firefox logo anymore :)
<robitaille> zyga,  a few differences...starting by the icon :)
<zyga> hmm
<zyga> too bad it does not include the patch that fixes the infamous slashdot bug ;-)
<robitaille> zyga,  you can always download and use a vanilla firefox if you want; it's pretty easy to install
<zyga> robitaille: I like gnome integration :>
<robitaille> zyga,  I do as well, that's why for Hoary I use Ubuntu's firefox.  For Warty, I wanted 1.0, so I was using my own then
* desrt can't wait for the new dbus/hal to his breezy
<desrt> *hit
<GheRivero> res
<pitti> mvo: hi
<mvo> hey pitti 
* remi` is away: remi::douche
<seb128> elmo: around ?
<seb128> and who broke my box ? :p
<Lathiat> me me me pick me
<seb128> gdm doesn't start because there is no mouse (apparently psmouse doesn't get loaded)
<Burgundavia> nice
<maswan> can I break your box tomorrow? please?
<seb128> I'm away for a week so feel free :p
<abelli> ciao a tutti
<abelli> a friend has done a nice manager for boot services, and i'd like to add "service description"s, where can i look for them?
<abelli> - /ill be back in 5 min/
<mvo> hey pitti 
<bluefoxicy> is there a utility to find all files in /etc that have been changed since install time, or aren't related to an installed package, and save them?
<bluefoxicy>  /etc is the missing link in erasing / and reinstalling as long as /home is elsewhere :)
<infinity> Woohoo, new firefox and mozilla.
<bluefoxicy> (that's my answer to any problems incurred from damaging your system)
* infinity adds a bunch more patches to review to his list.
<zul> heylo
<abelli> ciao
<pitti> Good bye guys, see you down under!
<Lathiat> cya pitti 
<Lathiat> going myself now
<Lathiat> cept im already down under, just going accross :)
<infinity> pitti : See you there.
<ogra> infinity, really ?
<abelli> huh ... have a good time ppl
<infinity> ogra : Really!
<ogra> YAY
<infinity> Huzzah, even.
<abelli> ogra: im waiting for your sms.
<ogra> infinity, looking forward to meet you then...(i'll meet pitti in 4h at the airport)
<infinity> I'm looking forward to getting horribly lost in Sydney after I land.  <nod>
<abelli> ogra: mind your change.
<\sh> grmpf...python2.4-qt3  but not python2.4-kde3
<\sh> why are the bindings not build from kdebindings
<Riddell> \sh: not sure, been meaning to ask that
<\sh> Riddell: well...possible explanation: the standalone packages are also in the repos, but it looks like they're outdated...
<\sh> i will play with kdebindings ;)
<Riddell> \sh: cool
<Riddell> \sh: try asking haggai first, he did kdebindings
<\sh> Riddell: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UniversePythonTransitionTODO
<\sh> "let kde people handling the problem" ;)
<\sh> finally they commented them in in the configure.in file
* Riddell been playing tourist http://jriddell.org/photos/2005-14-16-sarah-jonathan-sydney-tourists.jpg
* tsume_ likes to play sniper on tourists ;)
<Riddell> ssh is horribly laggy from here
<\sh> hehe
<\sh> well...i will do some serious stuff now..showering, shopping, cleaning the community places in this house
<mvo> hey ogra 
<abelli> mvo: dont stress him now ... otherwise he'll forget shirts.. :)
<queuetue> Hello, I've done a fresh install of hoary-AMD64 and I'm encountring the same kernel bug as last night:  "Buffer I/O error on device hda, logical block 0" and a kernel panic on boot...  (This was an MSI K8n Neo4 Platinum/SLI  with the nvidia nforce4 chipset)  ... can anyone lend a hand in helping me understand this?
<queuetue> (This error occurs immediately after "Starting Ubuntu"
<vvl> queuetue: do other operating systems work normally?
<abelli> vvl: ?
<queuetue> vvl, DSL (32-bit Dman small linux) works fine - I don't *have* any other oses. ;)
<vvl> ok :)
<vvl> I got a similar error once when I had my jumper settings on my hard drives the wrong way
<vvl> but it's not that then
<queuetue> "Wrong way" how?
<vvl> don't remember exactly how they were configured, but I think one was configured as cable select and one as a master
<vvl> and then they were plugged in wrong
<vvl> so linux saw the drives but they didn't respond to I/O requests very well :)
<vvl> but if you can boot another kernel that isn't the problem
<queuetue> vvl, Well, I can boot a livecd, nothing has booted fromt he HD yet...
<vvl> queuetue: I'm absolutely no expert, but check all your HD cables and jumpers, and maybe your bios settings
<vvl> some drives require LBA to be switched on, others require it to be switched off
<queuetue> vvl, Why would that not be an issue during the install?
<queuetue> The fact that the install and DSL can use the drive fine is really the strange thing here...
<vvl> hmm yes
<vvl> but I'd rather not give any more "advice", like I said I'm no expert at these things :)
<fgx> where are bugs concerning universe stuff to be submitted?
<Burgundavia> fgx
<Burgundavia> malone
<koke> fgx: https://launchpad.ubuntu.com/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
<fgx> is it useful, as in bugzilla, to include my hd db ID?
<zul> bbl
<ross> mjg59, ping?
<rburton> thom, ping?
* rburton thinks everyone is not really here
<kent> Didn't firefox/mozilla get a securityupdate in hoary? I thought i read something about that. But I have not yet got it on my Hoary :(  Whats the version of the update? So that i can check if its already installed.. 
<Burgundavia> rburton, there are a lot who are leaving for lca right around now
<Burgundavia> kent, it is coming, don't worry
<kent> Burgundavia, ah, ok. I was just worried that perhaps my list of repositories is wrong, but I dont think so.. it should be ok :)
<rburton> Burgundavia: yeah, that was my guess
<Burgundavia> kent, you probably won't see a version bump, they will just backport the fixes
<schweeb> fabbione: around?
<fabbione> schweeb: more or less :)
<queuetue> It definitely seems like a kernel problem - the disks work fine in another machine, the system works fine with both the livecd and a windows PE disk... Wht can I do here?
<schweeb> fabbione: you have a recommended netboot image for an ultrasparc to get ubuntu on it?
<queuetue> An old gentoo HD I scrounged up has the same problem, btw.
<schweeb> sittin in front of the sunblade 2002 right now
<fabbione> schweeb: the one that is in the archive @ sparc.u.c
<schweeb> kk
<fabbione> no idea if it will ever work :)
<fabbione> you might have to play with it
<schweeb> yea
<schweeb> we'll see
<schweeb> first experience installing /anything/ on a sparc :)
<\sh> schweeb: oh..:)
<\sh> i'd installed debian on a sparc u5 and on a r420
<queuetue> As a test, I've agreed to install XP on the system, and see how it acts with the hardware ... I find it very disturbing that I can't op open another console during the install. :)
<fabbione> schweeb: debian should install pretty fine.. if you can install sarge, you can upgrade to ubuntu.. i am 99.9% sure about it
<kent> Burgundavia, well, im not interested in getting new versions etc. I was mainly interested in if my sources.list was correct. But i will know it later, i guess :)
<Burgundavia> kent, there is no reason for a stable hoary system to change its repos
<kent> Burgundavia, well, that is as correct as can be,  but haha, during Warty i changed the repos to install some 3rd party-stuff.. etc, and changed to a mirror etc. So my sources.list was a bit full of stuff and # comments etc. But i think i  have taken out the stuff that I dont use any more. So now it should be a clean list of repos.
<Burgundavia> kent, that would not be classified as a stable install in my books
<kent> Burgundavia, becaus of the thirdparty programs (i think i tried to/and did install java, flash or something like that during warty), or becaus i fiddled with the repos manually?
<Burgundavia> kent, fiddled with repos
<zyga> hello
<zyga> how does gnome-cd gets launched upon inserting audio-cd?
<zyga> (I've disabled 'auto-play' from the menu)
<Treenaks> menu?
<zyga> Treenaks: system->prefs->sth (cannot remember english name)
<zyga> Treenaks: I can make a screenshot - the dialog is very familiar even in foreign language
<zyga> anyway, the real problem is that it keeps starting, any insight before I scoop the source?
<Treenaks> zyga: I know which one you mean
<Treenaks> did you re-login?
<zyga> Treenaks: no, do I have to/
<Treenaks> (should not be necessary, but you never know)
<Treenaks> if that works, file a bug anyway :)
<zyga> Treenaks: It's not important - it was turned off long time ago
<zyga> Treenaks: (if it's something simple I'd prefer to patch it ;-)
<zyga> Treenaks: hmm there is a gconf key somewhere
<Treenaks> zyga: I don't doubt iy
<Treenaks> it
<zyga> Treenaks: but since gnome-cd doesn't launch on its own ...
<zyga> Treenaks: what can be starting it?
<Treenaks> nautilus, or gnome-volume-manager
<zyga> the latter is not running apparently
<zyga> ahh my mistake - it is running
* schweeb stabs SPARC net boot
<schweeb> fabbione: you know the key combo to get to OpenBoot w/o using the shutdown -i 0 -g 0 stuff?
<zyga> hmm how to use debian/rules to extract .tar.gz & apply patches?
<fabbione> send a break on the console
<fabbione> schweeb: do you have a keyboard or are you on ser console?
<schweeb> keyboard
<fabbione> stop + a
<schweeb> that have to be done on boot, or does it automatically work from a booted system?
<fabbione> it should always work
<schweeb> k
<akk> Hi -- any installer devs around?  I had some problems installing to a laptop, and am wondering what bugs I should file.
<fabbione> akk: just use bugzilla.ubuntu.com, we will take care of addressing the bug to the right component.
<fabbione> akk: please be very specific with the error if you can
<fabbione> and check if the bug hasn't been reported yet
<akk> Thanks.  I'll do that.
<akk> Oh, is anyone interested in bugs related to expert mode?
<fabbione> akk: yes.. all bugs are important
<fabbione> and needs to be addressed
<fabbione> better one more than one less
<akk> Okay, I'll report everything I saw.  Thanks.
<fabbione> akk: but please do a search on bugzilla first to see if it is a known problem
<fabbione> managing duplicates take a lot of time
<akk> Understood.  Will do.
<fabbione> thanks
<dizzy> anyone expert of hotplug here?
<schweeb> o_O
<schweeb> no rarp in the Ubuntu kernel?
<schweeb> hrm... guess I'll have to use bootp
<fabbione> schweeb: you don't need rarp in the kernel
<fabbione> schweeb: what you need is rarpd and tftpd on another machine
<fabbione> schweeb: OBP will take care of using rarpd to get the ip and download from tftp
<schweeb> yea, I had that... rarpd doesn't need rarp in the kernel?
<fabbione> nope
<trulux> ajmitch: ping
<trulux> ajmitch_: ping
<schweeb> this network's pretty goofy... they're already bootin some sun's via network
<schweeb> so I may mess around with it later
<fabbione> schweeb: OBP doesn't support dhcp for booting.. only rarpd 
<fabbione> schweeb: the booting is binded to the mac address
<fabbione> see /etc/ethers
<schweeb> when I had rarpd running, it was only getting rarp stuff for one box, which wasn't the one that I'm trying to netboot
<schweeb> yea, I had ethers set up
<schweeb> on my laptop
<fabbione> so if your rarpd answers only for that mac address it would be ok
<fabbione> schweeb: well, if you have phisical access, just use a cross cable to netboot
<schweeb> yea, that's what I'm lookin for right now :)
<fabbione> and plug the machine back to the real net before dhcp :)
<schweeb> that'd do
<fabbione> yeps
<Amaranth> If I had pbuilder setup for hoary and I'm on breezy now using pbuilder will still create packages usable in hoary, right?
<schweeb> yes
<fabbione> Amaranth: please stop this backporting madness.. really
<schweeb> heh
<fabbione> most of the stuff that will build and work on breezy will not on hoary
<fabbione> because of the toolchain changes
<Amaranth> fabbione: Heh, two packages my menu editor needs have fixes upstream.
<Amaranth> the gnome-menus 2.10 branch and PyXDG
<Amaranth> nothing that won't work in hoary
<fabbione> sooner or later that won't work.. just be aware of that
<Amaranth> why won't it?
<Amaranth> pbuilder sets up a chroot, doesn't it?
* akk wonders why bug 2835 is marked UPSTREAM -- is upstream debian in the case of netcfg?
<fabbione> because if we apply a patch to fix compilation with gcc-4, it might not work with gcc-3.3
<fabbione> also.. new libc6 will generate dependencies that are not easy to satisfy in hoary
<Amaranth> oh, you mean for new packages
<fabbione> no.. also for old ones
<Amaranth> yeah, i'm not going to be working on the backports project
<Amaranth> well, i mean for packages that come later on in breezy
<Amaranth> I just need these two because they got fixed upstream less than a week after hoary came out and my menu editor needs them.
<Burgundavia> Amaranth, did you do the original backports?
<Amaranth> nope
<schweeb> ugh, this crossover doesn't seem to be providing link :-/
<Amaranth> hrm, the gnome-menus source package doesn't have all the source in it
<bluefoxicy> 25698 bluefox   15   0  801m 184m  18m S  1.7 24.7  16:26.80 AbiWord-2.2
<bluefoxicy> 801M, 184M
* bluefoxicy closes abiword and suddenly uses about 600 megs less swap.
<bluefoxicy> yeah I'm gonna call that a problem with the allocator
<bluefoxicy>  3772 bluefox   15   0  183m  79m  19m S  0.0 10.7   0:04.75 abiword
<bluefoxicy> closed abiword, then reopenned with the same file
<zyga> bluefoxicy: could you compile abiword with debug and run it via valgrind?
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  no, I have work in 20 minutes.
<zyga> bluefoxicy: ok
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  but I believe that a lot of memory issues stem from the fact that I'm practically the only person I know of that actually understands that the design of the heap is a really bad idea
<zyga> bluefoxicy: ?
<zyga> bluefoxicy: why
<bluefoxicy> and red hat (who controlls glibc and thus mallo()) doesn't care
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  because if you allocate a ton of memory, then free most of it, except one byte at the end, you hold a ton of memory, as the heap is defined by start and length only
<bluefoxicy> the heap can't be fragmented in allocation; it's one big block.
<bluefoxicy> and thus, those unused areas will eventually get swapped out.
<zyga> bluefoxicy: hmm not so sure, are you confident that how it works?
<bluefoxicy> then when you allocate again, you just swap them back in because thankfully glibc's allocator doesn't just infinitely allocate more
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  I've tested it
<bluefoxicy> lemme find a test program.
<zyga> bluefoxicy: It's easier to check the source
<zyga> bluefoxicy: don't we have a slab allocator?
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  not that allocator, the userspace allocator.
<bluefoxicy> the kernel allocator handles physical->virtual mappings
<bluefoxicy> the userspace allocator handles getting memory from the kernel and using it in such a way that it doesn't just eat up 40 gigs of RAM
* zyga thought that slab allocator was in userspace too
<zyga> err but it's rather hard to believe that the us allocator is so dumb ;] 
<zyga> (not that I really know)
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  it uses brk(), except if an allocation is >128KiB it makes an mmap() segment
<zyga> mmap is okay6
<bluefoxicy> it would be better to use say 4-20 meg mmap() segments as mini heaps so that when they empty out you can just free them back to the system
<bluefoxicy> you can't just use mmap() for everything because it always maps full pages
<bluefoxicy> i.e. mmap()ing 5 bytes maps in 4096 bytes (think of fat, and small files, and you'll get it)
<zyga> bluefoxicy: well personally I don't assume I'm working with a perfect allocator and keep small stuff in their own allocation blocks
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I know how that works
<bluefoxicy> I know
<bluefoxicy> unfortunately using a huge block has problems, i.e. firefox starts at 40M and grows to 100, and stays there no matter what
<bluefoxicy> or if you delete 6000 files in nautilus, it allocates 330M of memory to store information about what it's about to do
<bluefoxicy> then it frees down to 300 instead of back to the usual 20M that it uses
<zyga> well simple likned list of blocks that feeds a custom allocator is simple
<bluefoxicy> but if it needs another 200 or so megs it's already allocated; most of that 300M is just empty space in the heap
<bluefoxicy> problem being it's empty allocated space that should be going back to the system, not to swap after 10 minutes
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I know little about how kernel works in this regard (overallocation)
<zyga> bluefoxicy: but you do have a point
<zyga> bluefoxicy: but ...
<zyga> bluefoxicy: isn't is then possible to have a custom allocator that knows about 128KiB stiupiditity and always maintains chunks in mmaped pages
<bluefoxicy> http://rafb.net/paste/results/1pgZrc68.html
<zyga> bluefoxicy: then spitting them out as a page becomes empty?
<zyga> (not that I care about performace for a moment)
<zyga> (alhorightm performace that is)
<zyga> bluefoxicy: dropping heap holder...?
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  problem being that if you simply mmap() a segment for every allocation, you allocate a 4096 byte page when you need a 60 .  You have to mmap() a small-ish area of a fair size, and use that as a heap, then scrap it when it empties.
<zyga> what does that mean?
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  one byte at the end of the heap.
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I dont want to mmap everything
<zyga> bluefoxicy: mmap -> list of blocks per allocated maps 
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  I malloc() like http://rafb.net/paste/results/B1ug1b73.html
<bluefoxicy> 25600 segments, then 100 bytes at the end
<zyga> bluefoxicy: smart
<bluefoxicy> then I free the 25600 segments out of the heap, which now has abotu 100M of unused memory in it
<zyga> bluefoxicy: and shows the point
<bluefoxicy> but the heap can't brk() down
<zyga> bluefoxicy: so let's change that ok?
<bluefoxicy> UU----------------------------U
<zyga> bluefoxicy: we'll use a custom allocator on top of mmap
<bluefoxicy> zyga: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=171547
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  exactly :)
<zyga> bluefoxicy: just say one thing to me - is there any limit to number of mapped pages? (per user)
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I once did a test
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  Depending on security setup and system limits there is
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I've mapped one gig file, each page on it's own
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I could not get more than 10 pages 
<bluefoxicy> wli reports that the kernel can handle millions of mappings, more than a 32 bit CPU can actually account for managable ram
<bluefoxicy> without slowing down at all
<zyga> bluefoxicy: mapping the whole file with one call worked
<bluefoxicy> heh
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I would gladly repeat that test :)
<zyga> and re-run your test with a small custom allocator (with malloc interface of course)
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  :) perhaps I should make a quick Ubuntu bug
<bluefoxicy> that points at that bug
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I'm still reading your bugreport
<zyga> bluefoxicy: but ... isn't this a generic bug?
<zyga> bluefoxicy: why gnome?
<zyga> (why ubuntu for that matter)
<zyga> create a small library with malloc free calloc and realloc 
<zyga> and LD_PRELOAD it or something
<bluefoxicy> because gnome devs get hard-ons over using less memory
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I've seen that memory wiki - it's a great idea 
<lsuactiafner> ok ppl, anyone here running ubuntu-5.04-install-amd64.iso? the kernel in 5.04 doesnt run my hardware setup, and i need someone to compile me a kernel, i got a .config for my system already, but am running 32bits and i dont want to cross-compile
<zyga> lsuactiafner: hmm I guess you should ask in #ubuntu
<lsuactiafner> i did, they seem useless.
<zyga> bluefoxicy: BTW: how does new get it's memory? via malloc?
<dhonn> lsuactiafner, you can compile your kernel under any linux distro
<lsuactiafner> and btw the lilo package installation in ubuntu-5.04-install-amd64.iso doesnt work
<lsuactiafner> dhonn : you cant compile a 64 bit kernel while running a 32 bit system with no cross compiler
<zyga> lsuactiafner: grub works okay (/me hugs big amd box)
<dhonn> you can
<dhonn> get the compiler
<lsuactiafner> dhonn : with a cross-compiler... and i do not want to mess with gcc 
<zyga> bluefoxicy: is there any convenient .tar.gz with your tests?
<bluefoxicy> work time
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  download the link I showed with the source as text.
<dhonn> what kernel works for you and what linux distro?
<lsuactiafner> zyga : lilo is better than grub
<zyga> bluefoxicy: msg me when you finish work please
<lsuactiafner> i use slackware 2.6.11, some options in the ubuntu kernel conflicts with my hardware.
<dhonn> just copy the kernel over to ubuntu
<lsuactiafner> slackware 10.1 but kernel 2.6.11-4
<zyga> lsuactiafner: I see
<dhonn> and copy the /lib/modules/*
<lsuactiafner> dhonn : a 32bit kernel WILL NOT run binaries compiled for 64bit
<dhonn> get the 64bit kernel from slack
<dhonn> lsuactiafner, you say the slack 64 kernel works for you?
<lsuactiafner> i'm running slackware in 32bit mode.
<dhonn> damn
<lsuactiafner> slackware 10.1 is 32bit, patrick didnt like some nasty bugs with 64bit systems
<dhonn> is there a 64bit kernel disto that works for you
<lsuactiafner> no. thats why i need someone currently running a 64bit system to compile me a kernel that will work for me, i got a .config file that will work
<schweeb> fabbione: still there?
<lsuactiafner> dhonn : you aint a developer are you?
<dhonn> im a different kind of developer
<lsuactiafner> graphics?
<dhonn> yep
<dhonn> i use to compile kernels a lot though
<dhonn> you can compile a 64bit kernel in a 32bit/os partition, then copy it to your 64bit/os partition
<lsuactiafner> you can not.
<dhonn> yes
<lsuactiafner> dhonn : --march=athlon64 
<dhonn> yes
<lsuactiafner> try compiling a program with that if you got a 32bit compiler
<dhonn> you can compile any arch
<dhonn> under any os
<lsuactiafner> trust me.. it does not work.
<lsuactiafner> ok cd /usr/src/linux 
<lsuactiafner> edit the Makefile
<lsuactiafner> ill get a search quick
<|QuaD-> is there a reason that all of unstable hasn't been imported to breezy? looking at gnome-blog, sid has v0.8-2, we are on 0.7-4
<schweeb> fabbione: I keep getting a "Fast Data Access MMU Miss" on a tftp download from the Sun client... using tftp manually from an x86 box works just peachy keen
<lsuactiafner> change the CFLAGS to export CFLAGS="-march=athlon64 -O3 -pipe -funroll-loops"
<schweeb> and on my x86 tftp box, the only error I get is "read: Connection refused"
<lsuactiafner> see if it does compile...
<lsuactiafner> HOSTCFLAGS ...
<dhonn> something isnt installed
<dhonn> dhonn@laptop:~/temp$ gcc -march=athlon64 blah.c
<dhonn> i get errors too
<lsuactiafner> exactly.
<dhonn> works fine march=pentium4
<lsuactiafner> well you know what, an AMD64 3200+ Hammer aint the same thing as a Pentium 4
<lsuactiafner> i686 is compatible. 
<dhonn> you have to install something else, you can compile programs for other archs i know it
<lsuactiafner> a cross-compiler...
<lsuactiafner> and you do not want to fsck with gcc on any pc.
<lsuactiafner> ok now i'm wasting time here.
<lsuactiafner> dhonn : dont ever touch anything todo with ubuntu please.
* schweeb googles problem
<dhonn> gcc is a cross compiler
<dhonn> lol
<fabbione> schweeb: oh... that error!
<srbaker> jdub, are you on tv right now?
<fabbione> schweeb: even with debian?
<fabbione> schweeb: because iirc the problem. it means that your cpu isn't supported
<schweeb> :-/
<schweeb> I'll try debian
<schweeb> google says it's a kernel problem
<schweeb> it is definitely an ultrasparc though
<fabbione> schweeb: it can also be silo
<fabbione> that's why i am asking you to try debian
<schweeb> yea
<fabbione> it compiles silo with another gcc
<schweeb> looking for the image now
<schweeb> it's an UltraSparc-III+
<fabbione> not sure it's supported by the kernel
<schweeb> o_O... the banner says Sun-Blade-1000... it's supposed to be a 2000
<schweeb> debian's boot.img does the same thing too
<schweeb> trying the 2.6 one...
<zyga> confirm this please - it's not possible to get 4MB pages on x86?
<jbailey> zyga: Superpages I think are available from pentium up.
<zyga> jbailey: any good docs on the subject? (other than google)
<jbailey> Intel's archtecture books.
<zyga> jbailey: thanks
<jbailey> Dunno if they're online or not.
<zyga> jbailey: I've got some of them at my university library - that will do
<jbailey> Cool.
<schweeb> fabbione: okay, now I'm getting it to say "138200" then is says to check the tftp config.  frickin SPARCs
<fabbione> schweeb: so it starts the download and than it stops?
<schweeb> yep
<schweeb> I'll do some more research and mess with it later
<schweeb> gotta go to a bbq with whiprush in a little while, and this is pissing me off too much
<zyga> does LD_PRELOAD take symbol versions into account?
<schweeb> headin out... later
#ubuntu-devel 2005-04-28
<doko> hi all
<fabbione> hey doko
<fabbione> better you hide.. lamont is searching for you :P
<fabbione> how was the travel?
<doko> fabbione: fine, although 10 hours difference is ... interesting
<fabbione> anyway
<fabbione> i am off to bed
<fabbione> it's almost 2am 
<crimsun> ni
<zyga> how to override malloc&friends with LD_PRELOAD correctly
<zyga> my code dies in an infinite recursion of dlsym calling calloc
<tle> gcc4 link with libstdc++6 but does not link with libstdc++6-dev (instead gcc3.4), weird?!
<tle> 0_o
<siimo> anyone know if linux-headers come on the warty cd ?
<eruin> less than likely
<siimo> ok thanks
<mkde> jdub, ping?
<bur[n] er> anyone know if the ubuntu team is thinking about giving rhythmbox some love?
<eruin> it's getting alot of love in the merge branch lately
<eruin> as you could probably see from the screenie I pasted in #ubuntu ;)
* bur[n] er jets back :)
<bur[n] er> uhh... wanna give me a link? :)  
<eruin> http://appelsinjuice.org/rb9.png
<eruin> there 'tis ;-)
<eruin> theres some interface discussion going on on their mailing list
<eruin> looking very nice
<eruin> itunes shares, ipod, cd burners are getting even more tightly integrated
<bur[n] er> ooh, yeah definately
<bur[n] er> music collection database support?
<eruin> and currently the burner is a salvation.. no more k3b :D
<bur[n] er> ie... tell rhythmbox my music is in say "/mnt/hdc1/Music" and it monitors it without making dupes? ;)
<bur[n] er> that's the 'one' feature keeping me from rb ;)
<eruin> dupes of what? ;)
<bur[n] er> if i add a directory... but those mp3s are already there, they make dupes
<eruin> never seen that happen ;p
<bur[n] er> you're kidding?
<eruin> nope
<bur[n] er> if i add my /mnt/hdc1/Music, but then say I rip a new album and put it in /mnt/hdc1/Music, I try to add the whole directory again, and rb isn't smart enough to know I already have some
<eruin> and you get dupes in your library?
<bur[n] er> yeah
<eruin> seriously, I do that stuff all the time and it a) autodiscovers that when I start RB, b) never makes a dupe
<eruin> that being said, It's been ages since I ran anything but rb 0.9 ;)
<bur[n] er> awwwww
<bur[n] er> that's probably it
<bur[n] er> rb .8.8 is not so friendly
<bur[n] er> guess i should compile a more 'bleeding-edge' version :)
<bur[n] er> in any event, thanks for the news and the ss teasers eruin :)
<bur[n] er> rb .9+ may pull me back from amarok
<eruin> ;)
<cartel_> hmmm
<zul> so quiet
<zul> nigth folks
<crimsun> ni
<fabbione> morning
<|QuaD-> fabbione: while you are up, i have a sort of (but not so far) offtopic question, do you know when breezy's sync with sid will complete?
<fabbione> |QuaD-: when we will go in UpstreamVersionFreeze
<fabbione> in 3 months more or less
<|QuaD-> fabbione: i didn't mean complete, i meant continue
<fabbione> it's an ongoing sync
<|QuaD-> fabbione: it seems to me it isn't sync'ed now
<fabbione> we synced 3 days ago.. so there is not much new stuff
<|QuaD-> fabbione: i am looking at gnome-blog (for example)
<fabbione> |QuaD-: not everything is synced automatically
<|QuaD-> breezy has .7 sid has .8
<fabbione> |QuaD-: when was -8 uploaded to debian?
<fabbione> is breezy version -7 or -7ubuntu
<fabbione> ?
<|QuaD-> lemme check
<|QuaD-> Version: 0.7-4ubuntu1
<|QuaD-> sid: gnome-blog (0.8-2)
<fabbione> that one needs to be synced manually
<|QuaD-> fabbione: how come some are synced manually?
<fabbione> probably who has the bug assigned, still have to do that
<fabbione> because an ubuntu version means that it has changes that differs from debian
<fabbione> and you don't want to lose them
<fabbione> bugs are open automatically by the sync script
<fabbione> it's just question of being patience
<fabbione> since it needs to be done manually
<|QuaD-> fabbione: i didn't realize, i thought the sync was stopped :)
<fabbione> nope..
<fabbione> it might happen that the script doesn't work, but that's a totally different story
<|QuaD-> haha, i am guessing thats something you cross your fingers and hope that isn't the case
<fabbione> well that's elmo's playground :)
<fabbione> he hopes that it works :)
<|QuaD-> haha :) you guys do an amazing job on this. were all of you debian developers prior to joining canonical?
<fabbione> not all of us
<fabbione> most of us yes
<|QuaD-> cool... well, i will let you get back to work now :) thanks for clearing that up
<fabbione> np
<GheRivero> res
<tseng> elmo: did you ever get my keyring@ reminder? my isp seems to be dropping outgoing mail on the floor now with no warning
<fabbione> tseng: elmo is vac for the next week.. i doubt he will even turn on his pc
<tseng> fabbione: thats fine.
<tseng> hopefully i can get my outbound mail situation fixed before then
<AKasper-87> lol
* Pathoschild peeks in
<locomorto|wFMA> you giys are weird
<AKasper-87> ditto
<AKasper-87> yeah
<tseng> bots?
<AKasper-87> very weird ^_^
<Pathoschild> Yep, I'm a bot. ^-^
<bunny||dead> liar
<bunny||dead> I am the bot
<locomorto|wFMA> muhahaha
<Pathoschild> Bovine defecation!
<Amaranth> I am Bot 2.0, these are the old models.
<Pathoschild> ...I know. I'm a fraud. :(
<locomorto|wFMA> damn
<bunny||dead> 2.0?
<locomorto|wFMA> i must have missed that upgrade
<bunny||dead> you make me laugh
* bunny||dead is version 17.4
<locomorto|wFMA> see
<locomorto|wFMA> its not soo bad
<locomorto|wFMA> my bots are 1.1
<Pathoschild> You're obviously a Microsoft build. ;)
<bunny||dead> no
* bunny||dead is licensed by AK International BV
* Pathoschild is Pathoschild Bot Xtreme XP 2007 SP4
<Pathoschild> ...version 13.2
* bunny||dead doesnt need crappy service packs
* bunny||dead is perfect
<locomorto|wFMA> case in point
<Pathoschild> That's why you had to be upgraded so many times? ;)
<bunny||dead> no
<bunny||dead> extra modules that were installed
<locomorto|wFMA> aha
<Pathoschild> Addons don't constitute an upgrade. -.-
* Amaranth is Amaranth Bot 2.0 Extreme Edition Ultra X950 2007
<locomorto|wFMA> bloatware
<locomorto|wFMA> i knew it
<locomorto|wFMA> X950?
<locomorto|wFMA> ATi FAN!
<locomorto|wFMA> kill it!
* bunny||dead is overclocked
* Pathoschild killes it
* Amaranth hugs ATI
<Amaranth> open source drivers :)
<locomorto|wFMA> its kill Pathoschild
<locomorto|wFMA> no such word as killes
<locomorto|wFMA> its likes saying fishes
<Pathoschild> blah. I'm made by Microsoft, my spell-checking has a few glitches here and there.
<Pathoschild> ...and there...
<Pathoschild> And if you look it up, fishes is an accepted word. ;)
<locomorto|wFMA> Windows 5.1 == evil
<Pathoschild> 5.1? o.O
<locomorto|wFMA> yes
<locomorto|wFMA> 3
<locomorto|wFMA> 4 == 95
<Amaranth> 5.1 == XP
<Pathoschild> Ah.
<bunny||dead> you got it all wrong
<bunny||dead> Windows == evil
<locomorto|wFMA> you skipped the whole 4.x
<Amaranth> 5.2 == 2003 Server
<locomorto|wFMA> -bunny||dead- VERSION xchat 2.4.1 [SilvereX]  Windows 5.1 [i686/2,17GHz] 
<Amaranth> 5.3 == Longhorn?
<bunny||dead> proxy
<locomorto|wFMA> no
<locomorto|wFMA> thats 6
<Amaranth> locomorto|wFMA: You wish it was 6. :)
<locomorto|wFMA> longhorn is comprised around C# with only the kernal not being written in it
<Pathoschild> With 72% more security-ensuring privacy-infringement! ^-^
<locomorto|wFMA> thus they gave it a new version number
<Amaranth> locomorto|wFMA: Not a chance.
<Amaranth> They didn't throw out 20 years of code and rewrite it all.
<locomorto> exactly
<Amaranth> So it isn't all in C#.
<locomorto> they kept the kernal from ebing written in C#
<locomorto> pretty much everything else is in C#
<Amaranth> The APIs they're exposing might be, but I guarantee you explorer.exe isn't
<Amaranth> locomorto: Do you have a copy of Longhorn?
<bunny||dead> Any bots in here that have the speedboat plugin installed?
<locomorto> as far as i was aware, they had not realesed a complete alpha of longhorn yet
<tseng> can you dudes take this somewhere else please?
<locomorto> fine
<Amaranth> tseng: the conversation is over anyway
<tseng> thanks.
<locomorto> im watching Full Metal Alchemist now anyway
<Amaranth> locomorto|wFMA: We'll find out when they ship, no point discussing it now.
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Pathoschild] : Ubuntu Development | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-love for getting involved | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DeveloperResources | Ubuntu 5.04 is released!  http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2005-April/000023.html | MOM is awak/parte!
<Pathoschild> ... huh ?
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Pathoschild] : Ubuntu Development | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-love for getting involved | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DeveloperResources | Ubuntu 5.04 is released!  http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2005-April/000023.html | MOM is awake!
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Pathoschild] : Ubuntu Development | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-love for getting involved | http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/DeveloperResources | Ubuntu 5.04 is released!  http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2005-April/000023.html | MOM is awake!
<Pathoschild> oops.
<Pathoschild> >.<
<AKasper-87> ^_^
<Pathoschild> Haha, an open-source topic. ^-^
<kent> MOM is awake?
<locomorto|wFMA> yep
<kent> who is MOM?
<Mithrandir> merge-o-matic
<kent> Mithrandir, ah, merge from Debian Sid?
<Mithrandir> it merges changes from Debian and changes from Ubuntu, yes
<kent> ah, nice.
<svenl> Kamion: you there ?
<svenl> Kamion: now that hoary is released, and i didn't finish yet the cd booting support and will not have time in the next two week, do you think you could trigger a mkvmlinuz copy of the boot image and put them for download from the site ? OR at some unofficial place if you think it is better.
<lupusBE> has anyone noticed programmes doing include gnome.h not compiling anymore in breezy?
<tsume_> hmm
<tsume_> yumm, systrace :)
<tsume_> one could really use systrace to his adv I guess for creating new plugins for web browsers :)
<tsume_> having a python plugin for moz which launches a python instance :) simply bundled with wxWidgets toolkit :)
<sid77> hi
<mdke> jdub, ping?
<remi`> Kamion, if you have a few moments, i'd like to speak with you about ubuntu on ia64
<trulux> someone here with some spare time to help with some work on the pam packages?
<GheRivero> res
<SEBest> hello, anyone interesting to talk about usplash/fbsplash ?
<tsume_> SEBest: what would the talk be about? :)
<SEBest> tsume_: i wanted to know the status about it, and if it needs some help
<tsume_> SEBest: oh.
<tsume_> SEBest: an easy setup utility would be nice :)
<SEBest> tsume_: is it ready?
<tsume_> SEBest: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/UsplashTodo
<tsume_> SEBest: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/USplash
<SEBest> i'm here already :)
<SEBest> but where is the code?
<Greek0> hi
<Greek0> is there something like snapshot.debian.net for ubuntu?
<tsume_> SEBest: well its just the specs from what I read
<SEBest> yes, but i thought it was "almost" ready?
<tsume_> SEBest: hmm, maybe its somewhere deep in cvs if somebody is working on it
<|QuaD-> Greek0: a. this should be in #ubuntu, b. what does it do?
<SEBest> i found this:
<SEBest> http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=22695
<Greek0> |QuaD-: snapshot.d.n has all past versions of a package in the archive. This is mainly useful for developers of course, which is why I ask here
<|QuaD-> Greek0: well there was something, i forget where though, ask in #ubuntu
<SEBest> tsume_: in fact it's splashy
<astharot> ciao
<Greek0> thanks |QuaD-
<tsume_> SEBest: are you sure?
<SEBest> yes i just tryed it and it works ok
<SEBest> it's not usplash
<SEBest> but it has the same idea
<SEBest> no need to modify the kernel , and easy to install
<SEBest> http://wiki.nanofreesoft.org/index.php/Splashy
#ubuntu-devel 2005-04-29
<tsume_> SEBest: looks like splashly supports my card in the whitelist
<SEBest> tsume_:  it's really to install, just add the repository and apt-get install splashy and voila
<SEBest> no file to edit 
<SEBest> the progress bar is not working for me
<schweeb> fabbione: poke
<blueyed> do I have to compile libapache2-mod-php4 to get mysql support? it's configured --without-mysql.. :/
<bluefoxicy> Is there a way to get the ubuntu d-i to go and install to a usb device, complete with grub ready to boot from a usb device?
<schweeb> no, you don't have to recompile php4
<schweeb> just install php4-mysql
<schweeb> whoa
<bluefoxicy> repost:  is there a way to get the ubuntu d-i to go and install to a usb device, complete with grub ready to boot from a usb device?
<blueyed> repost: do I have to compile libapache2-mod-php4 to get mysql support? it's configured --without-mysql..  ;)
<schweeb> blueyed: no
<schweeb> php4-mysql
<zyga> bluefoxicy: hey
<bluefoxicy> hi zyga
<bluefoxicy> damn, according to the forums there's no easy usb stuff
<bluefoxicy> not that my laptop is workin with usb anyway
<blueyed> schweeb, I have that package installed.. ?!
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I've moved forward with malloc trickery ;] 
<blueyed> Even reinstalled it again, schweeb.
<schweeb> blueyed: then it's either not enabled, or you're doing something else wrong
<schweeb> try a phpinfo():
<schweeb> er phpinfo();
<blueyed> yep, it says "--without-mysql"..
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  any luck?  esp. confirming that glibc does indeed manage a giant heap (apparently as many subheaps, but it's still one big memory allocation from kernel POV)
<schweeb> blueyed: check further down, for loaded modules
<schweeb> this is more a #ubuntu matter though
<zyga> bluefoxicy: some, I did not read malloc implementation yet but I've made some small tests that confirm general inefficienty as well as initial malloc&friends test re-implementation effort
<zyga> bluefoxicy: currently I'm stuck with LD_PRELOAD issue
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I don
<bluefoxicy> LD_PRELOAD=/home/shared/programming/new_allocator.so
<bluefoxicy> err.
<bluefoxicy> LD_PRELOAD=/home/shared/programming/new_allocator.so mem_test_hack
<zyga> bluefoxicy: that works for simple tests but if seems to fail when running something as trivial as ls
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I'm using dlsym (RTDL_NEXT, "...") as my test backend
<bluefoxicy> then your new code may be broke :)
<zyga> bluefoxicy: new code just gathers stats
<bluefoxicy> ah
<bluefoxicy> wow.  I'm not a software RE
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I've tried doing _init and __attribute__((constructor))
<bluefoxicy> I just look at the source and documentation and if I don't know then I just say fck it
<zyga> and even dlsym-per-request
<bluefoxicy> but that's awesome :)
<bluefoxicy> fabbione:  ping, awake today?
<zyga> but all seem to fail on particular tests :/
<bluefoxicy> heh
<zyga> bluefoxicy: RE?
<jbailey> bluefoxicy: He said good night earlier in another channel.
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  reverse engineer.
<bluefoxicy> jbailey:  oh damn I still need help about USB 1.1
<zyga> bluefoxicy: neither am I ;] 
<bluefoxicy> jbailey:  though if you give me a hack to make USB2.0 ports talk to 1.1 devices without a USB 1.1 HCD driver I'll be happy
<bluefoxicy> :)
<zyga> jbailey: maybe you could shed some light on this? how to correctly intercept malloc & friends? (I can show what fails ATM)
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  you sound like it ;)
<zyga> bluefoxicy: nah, RE is magic stuff - I only use vim and google ;] 
<jbailey> bluefoxicy: No idea.  I try to stay on this side of the syscall layer. =)
<bluefoxicy> ohci_hcd 0000:00:02.0: USB HC TakeOver failed!  <-- thus, no USB 1.1; but I get 6 2.0 ports (this laptop has 3)
<jbailey> zyga: What do you mean 'intercept'?
<bluefoxicy> jbailey:  for reference with zyga, https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9824  :)
<zyga> jbailey: get my stuff called instead of libc code, but be able to call libc malloc later
<zyga> jbailey: something like: void *malloc(size_t foo) { return (void (*)(size_t))(dlsym (RTLD_NEXT, "malloc"))(foo); }
<jbailey> zyga: Ah, are you John Moser?
<zyga> (paretheses may be wrong, sorry)
<zyga> jbailey: no ;-) who is that?
<bluefoxicy> jbailey:  no, I'm john, zyga just liked my idea :)
<jbailey> bluefoxicy: Ah. =)
<bluefoxicy> and I'm lazy/busy (college, job)
<zyga> bluefoxicy: heh, sorry :)
<bluefoxicy> and not much of a hacker ;)
<zyga> jbailey: I'm just trying to learn new things every day and that seemd plausible :>
<jbailey> zyga: Umm, I suppose that might work if you dlopen'd yourself.
<jbailey> Although I don't really know how that works with weak aliases.
<zyga> jbailey: the strange thing is it works on trivial code but fails on real world stuff as simple as ls
<zyga> jbailey: I don't know how aliases are resolved
<jbailey> Ther'es a function called 'malloc_hook', I wonder what it does.
<zyga> jbailey: I've been using soapbox code as a simple reference (google for: dag soapbox)
<bluefoxicy> jbailey:  it allocates space for Captain Hook, what do you think it does?  :P
<zyga> jbailey: It get's called by glibc's malloc
<zyga> jbailey: that's good for stats but not to replace malloc compleatly later
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  I liked my answer better; Hook was a better movie than glibc
<jbailey> bluefoxicy: I haven't dug through the malloc code.  If I knew what it was, I wouldn't have asked.
<bluefoxicy> jbailey:  it was a joke man :P
<jbailey> =)
<jbailey> zyga: Ah, hmm.
<bluefoxicy> <Hook> give me my bubbly.
<zyga> bluefoxicy: stop being lazy BTW: read malloc - it's not that big
<jbailey> I find it interesting that malloc doesn't seem to be a weak reference to a proper function.
<zyga> jbailey: reading man malloc_hook makes me correct previous statement - this *might* be use to alter malloc implementation
<zyga> jbailey: but that's not what I want in the end (like: no glibc malloc for a moment, go away ;-)
<jbailey> What I had been thinking with the weak_alias idea was that you could just call the internal function and use symbol versioning magic to get it.
<jbailey> Instead, your best bet might be to see if malloc still comes seperate in gnulib and just chain to that.
<zyga> jbailey: I'll have to re-test dlopen (LIBC_SO, RTLD_LAZY) and subsequent dlsym (...) 
<zyga> jbailey: I don't quite understand why they fail
<zyga> jbailey: I'd love to get some stats from running real world stuff like firefox 
<bluefoxicy> stats on i.e. how much memory is actually allocated vs how big the heap is?
<zyga> bluefoxicy: stats on alloc sizes
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I'm currently evaluating possibilities :)
<bluefoxicy> heh :)
<jbailey> Cool, good luck to you on it.
<zyga> bluefoxicy: frankly I don't think I can come up with better malloc during the weekend so this may take lots of time but thanks :>
<jbailey> *lol*
<jbailey> I'd expect that to come up with a better malloc that's balanced in the most common cases and doesn't kill the corner cases will takes years of work, and probably result in several papers being published.
<zyga> jbailey: I always love things auto-optimizing themselves from data gathered by previous runs
<jbailey> Profile-based optimisations good.
<bluefoxicy> lol
<zyga> okay let's get back to reality 
* zyga goes back to writing crappy project for tommorow classes
<zyga> jbailey: side note: I dont want to re-invent malloc really, I just want it to use different memory interface so that id doesn't keep tons of unused memory 
<zyga> (but the possibility of doing that depends on current algo ofcourse)
<jbailey> zyga: I'm curious if it actually does keep the memory that it seems to.
<zyga> jbailey: simple examples show that it does
<zyga> jbailey: bluefoxicy has a trivial case for you on a web page somewhere
<jbailey> Are the tools that you're using capable of seeing small allocations, or do they just show heep size?
<jbailey> (which could have holes in it)
<zyga> jbailey: good question
<zyga> jbailey: no the tool only shows heap size
<jbailey> Often cases tools like top and such report really inaccurate numbers because they're based on simple measurements - so there's no accounting for memory holes, shared data segments, etc.
<zyga> jbailey: at least that's what I think - top's the tool ATM 
<jbailey> Yeah, top is generally right out to lunch.
<zyga> jbailey: I've got a better test than
<jbailey> You have to go digging through the /proc directory, and probably get malloc debugging turned on to watch the allocations.
<jbailey> It's a worthwhile exercise.
<zyga> s/than/then/
<zyga> how about this: alloc lots, touch lots, alloc tiny, free lots (lots = physical ram), wait, free tiny
<jbailey> Right, but turn on malloc debugging.
<zyga> run, twice
<jbailey> IIRC, you can compile glibc with trace code to show you what's happening.
<jbailey> Or grab the version in gnulib, which should have the same algo's as glibc and tweak it a bit to produce the output you want.
<zyga> jbailey: this is less work for a simple test like this
<zyga> jbailey: if it confirms that memory really goes away then I cannot fix anything because it works fine
<jbailey> Except that you still don't have a tool that shows you what the allocations are doing.
<zyga> jbailey: if memory stays then I get to hear my hard drive ;] 
<jbailey> Remember to do it in single user mode, then. =)
<zyga> jbailey: good point
* zyga stops doing crappy project again
<zyga> (why does every university I know teach lame stuff on their IT classes?)
<jbailey> g'morning doko. =)
<jbailey> ogra: Or whoever you are...
<ogra> jbailey, we are both ;)
<ogra> susus, ping 
<ogra> jdub ?
<schweeb> "we are the collective"
<ogra> jdub, i think sydney is the most beautiful city in the world ;) youre a really lucky guy to live here....
<bluefoxicy> jbailey: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/attachment.cgi?id=2134
<doko> jbailey: so you join us on Saturday?
<zyga> jbailey: well it swaps out as hell
<zyga> jbailey: a very rough test though
<zyga> system is almos totally unusable
<zyga> jbailey: I don't know what it does yet but keeping one tiny allocated item at the end of otherwise unused heap keeps entire heap used, no holes 
* calc notes the gpl'd font issue could become very nasty
<robertj> calc: IMO it's non-enforcable and should just be cleaned up as we go
<calc> its non-enforcable when used in embedded situations such as pdf as well?
<robertj> calc: I dunno, I'd suspect so for end-user fonts. I could see a court agreeing that fonts purchased ala-cart had more restrictive licences.
<calc> ok
<robertj> I'm no legal expert, but it seems feasable.
<JanC> what's the problem with a GPL'ed font ?
<calc> JanC: the argument which fsf seems to agree with is an embedded font in a document makes said document fall under the GPL as well
<JanC> maybe the font author can force the PDF author to stop distributing his PDF with his GPL font
<JanC> the document wouldn't automagical become GPL'ed...
<JanC> hm, if there was a way to mark font licenses & document licenses, PDF creation programs and the like could check for compatible licenses...  :)
<JanC> at least, here in europe
<dhonn> the font is probably LGPL'ed
<dhonn> LGPL'ed code is safe for proprietary usage
<dhonn> plus the font is not source code
<|QuaD-> wow.... just got my mailbox full with breezy changes :)
<schweeb> heh, looks like they ran the sync again, eh
<crimsun> works for me :)
<crimsun> I certainly don't mind merging off those
<|QuaD-> heeh, i haven't updated yet :)
<|QuaD-> about to
<robertj> does anyone know the Gnome 2-point-11 address?
<infinity> jbailey : Is it okay if I still moderately dislike you?
<jbailey> infinity: Is this till for the ppc thing?
<infinity> Yes. :)
<infinity> My shiny new 2.6.11.7 kernel is OOpsing, so I'm blaming you.
<jbailey> Does the fact that our glibc ought now to work for your PHP setup not make up for some of it?
<infinity> Shh.
<infinity> Don't use logic on me, man.
<robertj> infinity: what's the problem?
<jbailey> infinity: Ubuntu's 2.6.10 works fine for me on pegasos and on a g5.
<infinity> jbailey : I could just be unlucky.  I'm debugging as we speak.
<infinity> jbailey : My hardware is a bit old and cranky at times.
<jbailey> Ah, cool.
<jbailey> infinity: You're coming to UDU, right?  Do I have to worry about you killing me in my sleep from your hatred?
<jbailey> infinity: Or are we past that point now?
<infinity> jbailey : Yes, and maybe.
<elmo> aren't you two sharing a room?
<infinity> elmo : We are?
* infinity hasn't seen a room assignment.
<elmo> infinity: who knows, I'm just trolling
<infinity> Oh. ;)
<infinity> Punk.
<thom> *shock*
<zul> there speakup support for breezy
<jbailey> zul: Does that collection of words form a sentence? =)
<zul> in the lower 50 states it does
<ajmitch_> jbailey: randomly insert words from the dictionary to make up a sentence?
<zul> and certain parts of canada
<jbailey> Given that we haven't been assimilated yet, would you... NM.  I like Andrew's suggestion.
<zul> i just ported speakup support for 2.6.12
<jbailey> There... speakup DAMMIT!  Support for breezy?
<jbailey> See?  I only needed to add one word and some punctuation. =)
<jbailey> zul: What's that? =)
<zul> http://linux-speakup.org/
<dhonn> I love gfx programming and I feel the gfx rendering slow, what source packages should I be looking at to optimize them?
<jbailey> zul: Ah, cool.
<zul> jbailey: so when i loose my sight i can still be witty
<robertj> zul: draw a better logo before you do ;)
<zul> i dont draw i hack..:)
<zul> therefore i am
<zul> im also slightly tired so i think im going to bed..
<jbailey> Bed sounds good. =)
<fabbione> morning
<\sh> morning
<robitaille> good morning fabbione 
<fabbione> elmo: please sync bzr from experimental
<da_bon_bon> can someone plz explain what technology does ubuntu use that enables me to apt-get off the live cd?
<infinity> keybuk : Around?
<da_bon_bon> why does ubuntu not shift over to 2.6.11 kernels ?
<fabbione> because 2.6.11 is crap
<da_bon_bon> fabbione: ? crap as in ?
<fabbione> we are working .12 for breezt
<fabbione> breezy
<da_bon_bon> oh, and hoary will never get kernel updates now, right, fabbione ?
<fabbione> da_bon_bon: it is buggy, way too much to spend time in fixing them
<fabbione> da_bon_bon: only security updates
<da_bon_bon> fabbione: :( damn. can i install a 2.6.12 from breezy ? due to slow net, i cant completely switch to breezy...
<fabbione> da_bon_bon: there is no .12 in breezy yet
<da_bon_bon> fabbione: when it is available ?
<fabbione> there will be in a couple of weeks i think
<da_bon_bon> i meant, when it is available, can i get .12 in hoary ?
<fabbione> da_bon_bon: no
<fabbione> it won't work
<da_bon_bon> why ?
<fabbione> or it might, but it might needs a lot of work for backporting
<da_bon_bon> oh ok..
<fabbione> because it will build using the new packages in breezy
<da_bon_bon> then i will leave it alone :) maybe even compile my own kernel ;)
<fabbione> that changes stuff around
<da_bon_bon> oh ok..
<da_bon_bon> btw, currently, how different is breezy from hoary ?
<infinity> glibc 2.3.5.  That's all you need to know. :)
<infinity> Oh, and gcc-4.0
<infinity> So, even if everything else has stayed the same, breezy's likely hideously different/broken compared to hoary right now. :)
<da_bon_bon> infinity: no new packages ? like gaim , firefox, and other "end-user" packages ?
<da_bon_bon> infinity: and would u recomend, a person like me, whoze used hoary-devel , to use breezy-devel ?
<infinity> Oh, other things have been updated (and continue to be updated), but those two changes are the two "uh oh, stuff's going to break" changes.
<da_bon_bon> so u dont recomend mw to update hoary to breezy ATM ?
<da_bon_bon> s/mw/me
<infinity> I'd give it a week or three to settle a bit, but my word's hardly the final one there. :)
<da_bon_bon> oh ok :)
<da_bon_bon> so for now, i'll let it be :)
<Burgundavia> da_bon_bon, I would also wait a wait or so to settle
<Burgundavia> after UDU it should be better
<da_bon_bon> oh ok
<da_bon_bon> man, wish i cud attend UDU
<da_bon_bon> but i dont even have a passport, let alone a visa ;)
<da_bon_bon> one more question - how does ubuntu use grepmap to speed up hotplug ? can i implement it in other distros ?
<ace2001ac> what '-dev' package has the pthread lib in it
<GheRivero> res
<sivang> Hi all, who is MOM ? ;-)
<Burgundavia> merge-o-matic
<Burgundavia> debian sid to ubuntu auto merger
<sivang> Burgundavia: ah right, cool that's it's awake now
<|QuaD-> again?
<|QuaD-> what time?
<cartel_> fabbione u there?
<fabbione> cartel_: yes
<infinity> ace2001ac : pthread comes from libc.
* infinity grumbles about ancient packages spontaneously moving to CDBS 'just cause'.
<A_Alam> hi can anyone help me to add New Langauge Team to ubuntu
<A_Alam> ?
<jsgotangco> in rosetta?
<A_Alam> in live CD, i want to add Punjabi (pa_IN)
<Burgundavia> A_Alam, the live cd is already seriously pressed for space
<Burgundavia> I doubt there is room for another lang pack
<fabbione> cartel_: it's the second time you ping me and disappear.. it's not very polite...
<A_Alam> Burgundavia, k, but we should open langauge option for New language by some method, should we not?
<Burgundavia> A_Alam, hmm. I don't quite understand you
<A_Alam> if space is limited, then we should not put constrain to number of language, but find some new solution for this
<Burgundavia> A_Alam, new solution?
<Burgundavia> a live dvd? ala suse?
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: it should be possible to remove support for one language and add another
<Burgundavia> it would be nice if they built iso's on the fly, but that is very bluesky
<Treenaks> Burgundavia: or maybe remove 2 and add 1 large one or something
<Burgundavia> where you could say, I want this lang, and it would do it
<A_Alam> Treenaks, may be, as in Asia, we need not Euorpen langs and same for reverse
<Treenaks> A_Alam: exactly..
<Treenaks> A_Alam: it's all in the language-support-* and language-pack-* files.. remove those (and install new ones) and it _SHOULD_ work
<A_Alam> yes, that is correct
<A_Alam> gnome 2.10 supported 33 langauge, so we should target to release in all language via Add/remove able module method
<Treenaks> A_Alam: well, that's a bit hard on a live-cd..
<A_Alam> but in development of Live CD, can we add option to give the choice to CD-maker (developer) about select language package to  make a live CD?
<zoppy> hi
<zoppy> is it possible to disable DMA with grub ?
<Treenaks> zoppy: with grub????
<zoppy> yep
<zoppy> because Ubuntu stops about 2 minutes when launching Starting Ubuntu ...
<zoppy> I have DMA error :(
<zoppy> same like this error http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=24634&highlight=DMA+error
<zoppy> i have to disable in hdparm.conf I think
<zoppy> ??
<fabbione> zoppy: these kind of errors are bad.. usually it's either the hd leaving for a better world or the mobo
<fabbione> it can also be the ide flat cable that is not good enough
<Treenaks> fabbione: or the chipset is wonky
<fabbione> yeah
<fabbione> but the DMA blacklist for old chipset is pretty stable
<zoppy> arf
<zoppy> ok
<zoppy> I will try with another ide cable
<zoppy> to check
* fabbione sighs at 110 lines of changelog for the new kenrnel
<fabbione> and 1) it is not as paranoid as i am used
<fabbione> 2) i am not even half way of the things that need to be done
* Treenaks KILLS the PGP Verificaton Service thing
<Treenaks> it creates bad packets which make gpg complain
<Amaranth> neat, evolution just got removed
* Amaranth didn't like it much anyway :)
<zoppy> does a bugreport has been report on Mozilla firefox? 
<zoppy> when upgrade to hoary ?
<thom> zoppy: what's the problem?
<zoppy> mozilla firefox package breaks all the system package
<zoppy> mozilla-firefox 1.0.2-0ubuntu5
<Treenaks> zoppy: did you use some kind of backported firefox?
<Treenaks> zoppy: in warty?
<zoppy> nope
<thom> ok, nothing like that has been reported; please file a bug with the exact output from apt and exactly what you did
<zoppy> I'm trying to update mozilla firefox now
<zoppy> some error display but install continue
<zoppy> lol worky now 
<Burgundavia> zoppy, are you trying to install the version of the website?
<zoppy> yep
<zoppy> with aptitude
<fabbione> hey thombot
<zoppy> when I do the dist-upgrade
<zoppy> mozilla firefox package failed
<zoppy> now it's works
<thom> if it works don't file a bug, it's very likely that it was a local problem elsewhere
<zoppy> yep
<cartman> jbailey: any news about #9743 ?
<cartel_> yo
<fabbione> cartel_: please stop this ctcp thing.. it's really annoying.. what do you need??
<Burgundavia> cartel_, fabbione is not happy with you
<cartel_> fabbione, sorry i heard you were doing ubuntu xen-linux-images?
<cartel_> i tried to build some but i couldnt work with ubuntu soruces
<cartel_> sources*
<fabbione> cartel_: yes and atm xen is no go
<cartel_> fabbione: can i have your rules?
<cartel_> fabbione: ive already done this for sarge
<fabbione> cartel_: xen simply doesn't work on ubuntu kernels
<fabbione> there are many major problems
<cartel_> fabbione: who is the REAL ubuntu kernel maintainer....
<fabbione> cartel_: me
<cartel_> the one that patches the filth out of it
<fabbione> still me
<cartel_> i dont get it.. why such a huge delta from debian?
<fabbione> cartel_: because we import more bug fixes and external drivers that debian does
<cartel_> why arent you keeping track of the patches?
<fabbione> cartel_: i do and it is all documented
<cartel_> where?
<cartel_> changelog?
<fabbione> changelog and source package
<cartel_> i tried to unpatch the sources
<cartel_> your own patch would not reverse
<fabbione> if you unpatch the source you get a plain 2.6.10
<cartel_> so youd think
<fabbione> and yes they reverse. it's done all the time the package is built
<cartel_> maybe my source mirror is out of date
<fabbione> there were never problems as you describe
<cartel_> i tried for 10 hours to patch unsuccessfuly
<cartel_> i could not unpatch from the ubuntu-sources
<fabbione> why do you need to unpatch if you have already the unpatched source?
<cartel_> nor could i patch up from xenolinux
<fabbione> i could do both without any issue
<fabbione> so it means you are doing something wrong somewhere
<cartel_> what was your issue then
<fabbione> i don't have issues...
<cartel_> usb?
<fabbione> issue with what?
<cartel_> so you patch but xen just doesnt work?
<fabbione> cartel_: it compiles, but it doesn't boot
<cartel_> ok if it compiles, what is the boot error?
<cartel_> hang?
<cartel_> unable to mount root vfs?
<fabbione> it boots the xen.gz microkernel and as soon as it loads the real kernel, it keeps rebooting
<cartel_> can you give me your sources?
<fabbione> this is with 2.6
<cartel_> i have done lots of xen builds
<cartel_> got a serial console?
<fabbione> cartel_: no i don't have a serial console handy, but i can add one.
<fabbione> the sources are in baz
<cartel_> baz... k
<cartel_> didnt think of that :)
<cartel_> i was trying people.ubuntulinux.com thinking it was the same as p.d.o :p
<cartel_> ill give it a try
<cartel_> and if i succeed ill give you a patch
<cartel_> :)
<fabbione> ok
<cartel_> i want to xen my workstation at work, thats ubuntu, ive xenned all my other machines
<cartel_> they are sarge
<cartel_> i have failover replicating xenohosts :p
<fabbione> we will reevaluate xen when 3.0 will be out
<fabbione> right now it is too sensitive to the hardware and the kernel
<cartel_> wait for my screen shot ;)
<fabbione> no i don't need screenshots. i got it running here with vanilla kernels
<cartel_> no
<fabbione> the problem is integration with distro kernel
<cartel_> you cant build with the same rules
<cartel_> ?
<fabbione> cartel_: ?????????
<fabbione> cartel_: we are talking 2 different languages
<fabbione> the problem is not building the package
<cartel_> you cant build your xen kernel with the same config as the ubuntu kernel can you
<cartel_> it wont boot
<fabbione> that is a trivial 10 minutes work
<fabbione> config has been adapted and updated to match the XEN options as xen0 and xenU
<fabbione> still... it doesn't boot
<cartel_> it wont boot and still have the same hardware support etc
<fabbione> and it is not a config problem
<cartel_> yes no?
<fabbione> no it is not a config problem
<fabbione> i repeat
<cartel_> ok
<fabbione> same source compiled with the default xen config does not boot
<cartel_> it just reboots?
<fabbione> yes
<cartel_> what processor are you using?
<cartel_> cpu
<fabbione> P4
<cartel_> p4 ht?
<fabbione> no only p4
<cartel_> have you tried compiling for p3?
<fabbione> athlon xp boots but can't mount root (this is with 2.4 tho)
<cartel_> that is the real issue
<fabbione> cartel_: no and right now xen is not on top of my priorities
<cartel_> great, that means i can work on it
<cartel_> :)
<fabbione> as i said, they are changing implementation radically
<fabbione> upstream wise
<cartel_> i work with upstream :)
<fabbione> so it's pointless to bring in old changes
<fabbione> well i was told that by a guy that is doing a uni research based on xen
<cartel_> its important to get this box across because it has the most ram :p
<tle> hi anyone, has anyone seen pitt online recently?
<cartel_> ok if your sources are in baz can i get them anonymously?
<fabbione> cartel_: yes you can
<cartel_> ok fabbione, thx
<fabbione> cartel_: just a sec..
<cartel_> ill leave you alone
<fabbione> cartel_: the archive is http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/Archives/kernel-team@ubuntu.com--2005/
<cartel_> thanks
<fabbione> cartel_: apt-get source linux-source-2.6.10
<cartel_> and good night
<fabbione> wait
<fabbione> cd linux-source-2.6.10-2.6.10
<fabbione> rm debian -r
<fabbione> and baz get from there
<fabbione> now
<fabbione> there are several branches
<fabbione> there is one named 2.6.10-experimental (or something like that)
<fabbione> that has the preliminary xen support
<fabbione> you can start from there
<cartel_> ok thanks
<cartel_> and ill read your changelog
<tle> sigh, if anyone see pitt online, please buzz me, thx much in advance
<fabbione> tle: he is in holidays
<tle> fabbione: oh, thx for that info
<cartel_> gnight all
<cartel_> fabbione ill bbl with results
* fabbione will soon read on news: "Guy used to be named cartel_ on irc, found dead trying to apply xen patches to ubuntu kernels"
<tle> damm annoyed #5917, for somehow I got into this bug since I change to new mainboard that uses i810, pitt may know about this. Fabbione, can u look over and give me some advice, I can't do the coding in a screen with 640x480
<fabbione> tle: -> #ubuntu please...
<fabbione> this is chan is more like:
<tle> opps, sorry, my apology
<fabbione> hey i have a patch to fix bug #5917
<tle> oh...
<tle> really?
<tle> let me check
<fabbione> no
<fabbione> i mean
<fabbione> this is chan is more like: "hey i have a patch to fix bug #5917"
<tle> lol
<tle> I am trying to fix this annyoing bug 2, need to work out the reason 1st
<d3vic3> automake sux 
<d3vic3> :/ 
<cartman> d3vic3: welcome aboard
<d3vic3> O.o 
<d3vic3> what a good alternative to automake/autoconf ? 
<Treenaks> d3vic3: uh.. there is an alternative?
<tle> ...automake..best? (I use it all time)
<d3vic3> s/what/whats/ 
<d3vic3> Treenaks, that was suppose to be a question :-| 
<tle> gcc-4.0 is going crazy, I no longer compile HelloWolrd.cpp
<Treenaks> tle: what's the error?
<tle> /tmp/ccbS7YSG.o(.text+0x25): In function `main':
<tle> : undefined reference to `std::cout'
<tle> /tmp/ccbS7YSG.o(.text+0x2a): In function `main':
<tle> : undefined reference to `std::basic_ostream<char, std::char_traits<char> >& std::operator<< <std::char_traits<char> >(std::basic_ostream<char, std::char_traits<char> >&, char const*)'
<tle> /tmp/ccbS7YSG.o(.text+0x47): In function `__tcf_0':
<tle> : undefined reference to `std::ios_base::Init::~Init()'
<tle> /tmp/ccbS7YSG.o(.text+0x74): In function `__static_initialization_and_destruction_0(int, int)':
<tle> : undefined reference to `std::ios_base::Init::Init()'
<tle> /tmp/ccbS7YSG.o(.eh_frame+0x11): undefined reference to `__gxx_personality_v0'
<tle> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
<tle> this
<tle> no idea y
<tle> 1st time I compile, it's OK
<tle> 2nd time compile, it produced this mess
<tle> HelloWorld.cpp code:
<Treenaks> tle: NO
<Treenaks> don't paste
<Treenaks> tle: use pastebin.com or something
<tle> okay
<tle> man
<tle> it's only 3 lines
<tle> #include <iostream>
<tle> using namespace std;
<tle> int main()
<tle> {
<tle> 	cout << "Hello World!";
<tle> 	return 0;
<tle> }
<tle> any idea?
<Treenaks> no clue
<tle> thx anyway
<stuNNed> i know i should ask this in #ubuntu but how do i restore my dhcp client to it's original ubuntu state?  i fubar-ed it, sorry for offtopic but losing connect fast
<jbailey> cartman: No, no word on that bug yet - I haven't even looked at it.
<cartman> jbailey: ok let me know if I can help (extra info etc)
<jbailey> cartman: I dislike doing glibc bugs just for locale updates since it takes so long to build.
<astharot-> but, where's pitti?
<cartman> jbailey: it blocks j2sdk installation here :|
<jbailey> Nah, it's pretty clear.
<jbailey> cartman: Eh? How?
<Keybuk> stuNNed: dpkg --force-confnew --force-confmiss -i /var/cache/apt/archives/dhcp3-client_*.deb
<cartman> jbailey: it depens on locales pack, dunno why
<cartman> jbailey: so it says "locales not configured" and bail out
<stuNNed> Keybuk: really appreciate it man thanks alot, let's see :)
<stuNNed> Keybuk: doubt anyone in #ubuntu would know that one ;)
<stuNNed> Keybuk: may i /query you for two ques?
<Keybuk> sure
<cartman> jbailey: can I bribe you with cheesy poofs or something? :)
<jbailey> cartman: Unlikely.  I'm a vegan - and immitation cheese just tastes nasty.
<cartman> jbailey: damned :)
<jbailey> cartman: I'll probably aim for a glibc upload tomorrow or Wednesday.
<cartman> jbailey: cool, thanks
<jbailey> cartman: There've been surprisingly few bugs on glibc so it really is better to batch them up.
<cartman> jbailey: I also reported a new libc6 bug assigned to you
<jordi> jbailey: how easy is to add new locales in ubuntu?
<cartman> but its possibly invalid
<jordi> easier than Debian? :)
<jbailey> jordi: Errmmm....
<cartman> jbailey: ldd on  a i386 binary fails
<jbailey> cartman: Works me for.
<fabbione> hey jbailey 
<jbailey> BAH
<jbailey> English grammar.
<jbailey> cartman: Works for me.
<cartman> lemme get the bug #
<cartman> jbailey: https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9879
<cartman> maybe I need some extra libs?
<jbailey> jordi: I *really* hate adding locales that arne't approved by upstream.  The problem is that most of the time they don't get accepted, and then we have a local mod that never works its way upstream.
<cartman> Drepper is such a cool guy heh ;)
<jbailey> jordi: If I had a better set of criteria from upstream on getting them in it would be easier, but it really seems based on the side of bed drepper got out of in the morning.
<jbailey> Heya Fabio!
<cartman> jbailey: do I need some 32bit libs or something?
<jbailey> Eh?  You said i386...
<jbailey> Oh, I see.
<jbailey> Umm.  I don't actually know how the biarch setup for amd64 works.
<cartman> jbailey: I am on amd64 and trying to ldd a 32bit executable
<jbailey> cartman: ISTR that there's some sort of i386-libs package or something like that which you generally need.
<jbailey> cartman: I don't have an amd64, though, so I don't have a good answer.
<cartman> jbailey: I think so too, I appreciate if you can assign bug to someone with am amd64 
<cartman> :D
<Lathiat> ijoij
<jbailey> Nah, that bug is probably best assigned to me - just because I don't know it doesn't mean I shouldn't learn it.
<cartman> jbailey: ok, thanks for your help. appreciated
<cartman> there is ia32-libs pack
<cartman> possibly thats what I need
<jbailey> That could be what I'm thinking of.
<jbailey> Although.  Why are you running a firefox binary from i386 instead of the one built for Breezy?
<cartman> jbailey: ah because it depends half of libgnome<foo>
<jbailey> cartman: This is a bad thing?
<cartman> I installed as "server"+compile kde cvs . its pretty good
<cartman> jbailey: not for gnome users nope
<cartman> its a good thing for them
<thom> yeah, there's a bug filed about that
<thom> on my TODO list
<jbailey> Heya thom.
<thom> hey
<cartman> I didn't file a bug because Gnome is default desktop environment
<cartman> :/
<cartman> but it would be cool to have a barebones firefox
<thom> so, is it just me who can't grasp the concept of "having the caps lock key be, well, caps lock is unintuitive and bad"?
<thom> cartman: that is the idea of the firefox{,-gnome-support} split indeed
<cartman> thom: yup
<jordi> jbailey: I have 3 locales ready to send to drepper: ca_AD, ca_FR and ca_IT. :)
<jbailey> Are those state-sponsored locales, or community ones?
<jbailey> State sponsored ones usually want government standards and stuff.
<jbailey> Community ones usually want newspapers, websites, etc. showing the customisations.
<jbailey> (and that a community exists)
<cartman> jbailey: yep thats it, install ia32-libs fixed it
<jbailey> Nice.  Will you close out the bug then please?  (Unless you want to call it a documentation bug.  Dunno where you looked for the answer first, though)
<cartman> jbailey: I will add a comment about ia32-libs and close it so next time people can check it and see :)
<jbailey> Cool, I appreciate it.
<cartman> brb
<zul> hey
<jbailey> Chuck!
<zul> jeffarino
<\sh> re
<\sh> ok...question...I want to install only the server part of ubuntu..but after debootstrapping and /usr/bin/base-config new it installs me complete everything for the workstation (xorg and stuff)
<cartman> also anyone knows when breezy will switch to g++ 4.0 hence break c++ abi?
<\sh> how can I change this behaviour
<\sh> cartman: after UdU
<cartman> \sh: cool, ok
<\sh> ah...cartman, now i know ;) mr. konversation  :)
<Treenaks> will the new c++ api be faster? better? cooler?
<Treenaks> or is it a minor change?
<cartman> \sh: *g* :)
<cartman> TerminX: all of it
<cartman> it will have nice new bugs too ;)
<jbailey> jordi: Thinking about it - between Rosetta and the LoCo teams there ought to be some way we can prove locales a bit better.
<\sh> *grmpf*
<\sh> how can I get only the needed packages for ubuntu without X ;)
<jordi> jbailey: these are just to have French, Andorrans and Italians who want their desktop in their language, not forced to use ca_ES
<jbailey> jordi: Makes sense, but I mean in general.
<jbailey> I wonder if there's some way that we can use the LoCo structure to be able to say, "See, there is a French Catalan community, and it's worth the overhead of maintaining this setup ongoing"
<jordi> In this case, the French Catlaan community would optimally be the same community as the general Catalan community
<SlackShrike> hi
<jbailey> what keeps them from just using 'ca' for their locale, then?
<\sh> guys, which file i have to edit, to remove all the Xserver stuff from being installed after /usr/bin/base-config
<shaya> wondering what's going on with evolution, seems weird
<mvirkkil> Can you write to a unix socket on a read-only filesystem?
<ivoks> hi
<zAo^> lo
<ivoks> i have one q. about CFLAGS
<ivoks> what are they? mtune and march?
<ivoks> 486? pentium?
<zAo^> srry donno
<ivoks> doh...
<cartman> ivoks: try #ubuntu
<ivoks> lol
<ivoks> they said try ubuntu-devel
<ivoks> well.. it is ubuntu-devel topic
<cartman> mtune is tunes for cpu
<cartman> oh well
<ivoks> ofkors
<ivoks> that i want to know
<ivoks> i won't install 486 distro on pentium-m
<cartman> ivoks: grumble
<cartman> just get i686 glibc/kernel
<cartman> and you will be fine
<ivoks> hm...
<ivoks> it has that?
<ivoks> ok, thanx
<mvirkkil> Let's say I've created a unix socket to /etc/foobar and then remount the partition which contains /etc as read only. Can I still write to that socket?
<\sh> ok...my crazy adventure is done
<\sh> gentoo replaced by ubuntu
<\sh> remotely
<\sh> and all my services running
<\sh> mysql apache2 jabberd2 vsftpd bind
<cartman> \sh: neat
<\sh> now whats missing: some packages for new jabberd2 python transports
<\sh> this i have to do on my own
<mvirkkil> daniels: Are you the person who is going to be looking at usplash?
<LinuxJones> Can someone please pop into #ubuntu there is a text spammer that needs to be kicked please (ablyss)
<lunitik> Someone please +q ablyss in #ubuntu?
<Treenaks> is it possible/easy/etc. to create a breezy pbuilder environment yet?
* lunitik thinks he should get op status in there due to being there so much... then he wouldn't have to annoy you'll  :)
<zyga> hello :)
<\sh> re
<bluefoxicy> dammit freenode.
<Mithrandir> moo
<alexissoft> hi
<zul> hey Mithrandir you down under yet?
<Mithrandir> zul: yeah.
<zul> how is it?
<Mithrandir> and I'm a bit jeg-lagged, so I woke up at five-ish in the morning
<zul> nitfy
<Mithrandir> nice and warm during the day, cold during the night.
<Mithrandir> nice people, even though their local dialect is a bit odd. ;)
<zul> hehe
<Mithrandir> I arrived last morning, so I've spent most time saying hi to people so far.
<Mithrandir> you coming?
<zul> uh i wish...lack of money and job commitments
<Mithrandir> ah
<Amaranth> are the devs at udu?
<crimsun> getting there
<Burgundavia_> lca right now I think
<crimsun> or already there.
<Mithrandir> it's LCA now, yes
<Mithrandir> but it means my head won't be totally FUBAR during the first couple of days due to being in the wrong TZ.
<Burgundavia_> lca starts today
<Mithrandir> LCA miniconfs started yesterday and will happen today too
<Mithrandir> the full conf starts wednesday
<drspin> Ever since I switched to Hoary I can't open a new X session (i.e. Applications -> System Tools -> New Login) -- I also started receiving "Cannot initialize HAL" error every time I login -- perhaps they are related. I have asked in the channel and get no response or even anyone remotely interested in pointing me in the right direction...
<Burgundavia_> drspin, I would search the forums and bugzilla for an answer. If you don't find one, file a bug about it
<Jeeves_> Hello all
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> tolkien.freenode.net
<zoppy> Hi
<zoppy> is it possible to disable DMA
<zoppy> because I haven't configure anything in hdparm.conf
<zoppy> and I have DMA error :(
<zoppy> all is commented in hdparm.conf
<zoppy> when Starting Ubuntu ... in boot sequence I have to wait 2 minutes before the boot begins
<zoppy> because DMA error
<Jeeves_> zoppy: I think you'd have to join #ubuntu-support for that question
<zoppy> ok
<abelli_> hi ppl, is there any particular reason why *.node.tor have been banned?
<\sh> yeah I have it...swap from gentoo 2005.0 to ubuntu hoary in less then 24h ;)
<abelli_> ...banned from #ubuntu ... i forgot.
#ubuntu-devel 2005-04-30
<toresbe> Jeeves_: it's #ubuntu, not #ubuntu-support.
<LinuxJones> abelli_, probably because some people have been acting up while hiding behind behind tor 
<Jeeves_> toresbe: I know. I told him @ubuntu-support
<\sh> gentlemen, ubuntu for a server == hard work to do
<toresbe> aha
<Jeeves_> Say, any-one here read my story @#ubuntu-love?
<\sh> Jeeves_: tell the story
<Jeeves_> \sh: Well, I've setup a mirror for Ubuntu
<Jeeves_> Emailed tha data
<Jeeves_> Got no reply
<Jeeves_> Nor a mention in the mirrors list
<abelli_> LinuxJones: hu right
<Jeeves_> Emailed another address
<Jeeves_> Got no reply
<Jeeves_> Nor a mention in the mirrors list
<Jeeves_> Wiki'ed myself on the mirror-list.
<Jeeves_> And now I found out that I am removed from that list.
<Jeeves_> I would like very much to mirror ubuntu fully. But if Ubuntu doesn't cooperate. Why would I even bother spending disk-space and bandwidth?
<Jeeves_> So far, I've found no-one who could tell me where to wine about this
<\sh> well..i think there r rules for that, u have to be a coc member or whatever
<Jeeves_> coc-member?
<\sh> yeah ubuntu member who signed to code of conduct
<\sh> -to +the
<Jeeves_> Well. That is not documented. AND still. If you want your distro to succeed. The least you can do is reply on the emails you recieve
<\sh> Jeeves_: ubuntu is not different from other distros
<\sh> i send a infra-monkey application to the gentoo-recruiters a couple of months ago
<\sh> i never heard anything from them
<Jeeves_> \sh: I'm not complaining about Gentoo. I'm complaining about Ubuntu. :)
<\sh> I asked a couple of guys I know, who are responsible to mentor new devs or infra-monkeys for gentoo...and they tried to gather some infos about the status of the application...nothing
<\sh> Jeeves_: what I want to tell you, do it, don't wait for anybody 
<\sh> if you want to establish a mirror, do it. :)
<daniels> mvirkkil: one of them, yes
<Jeeves_> \sh: I've done that. What's the use if ubuntu doesn't document that
<Jeeves_> ?
<\sh> Jeeves_: well, i hope something is chaning after udu
<bob2> Jeeves_: er, can't you just edit the wiki?
<Jeeves_> bob2: I'd like to know why I was removed
<Jeeves_> Because the history stops at some moment
<bob2> Jeeves_: did you email mirrors@canonical.com like the page told you to?
<Jeeves_> bob2: Multiple times
<\sh> write mark directly
<bob2> abelli_: it was banned due to people abusing it
<Jeeves_> Who's mark?
<\sh> mark shuttleworth
<abelli_> bob2: thank you
<abelli_> again. :)
<\sh> if nobody is answering, the boss has to answer ;)
<Jeeves_> \sh: Yeah. Sure. :)
<\sh> one more cigarette and then I have to go to bed..today I have to solve some issues with a couple of transport streams in our tv network 
<Jeeves_> But it isn't know who exactly is responsible for this mirror-shit?
<bob2> please chill out, dude
<bob2> getting abusive isn't going to resolve anything
<\sh> Jeeves_: ask all those question during the next #ubuntu-meeting
<\sh> bob2: talking to me? :)
<bob2> no, Jeeves_ 
<\sh> sry :)
<Jeeves_> Who's getting abusive?
<Jeeves_> Me? :)
<Jeeves_> Well, 'shit' isn't exactly abusive where I come from. But I'll try to think about it. :)
<bob2> it's certainly not polite
<Jeeves_> bob2: Like I said, it's just a word where I come from. But I'll try to think about it.
<bob2> er, ok then
* \sh needs a trip back to ZA...I feel that...I need to eat chilli chees lamb burger @coconut grove, durban:)
<\sh> I'm hungry
<Jeeves_> bob2: I come from Holland. That's the rotten country where we kill little babys and elderlys when we feel like it, and we are constantly doing drugs.
* Amaranth needs seb128 :/
<Jeeves_> (As far as FoxNews is concerned)
<bob2> ...
<\sh> Jeeves_: well..i thought holland is the west part of germany? ,-)
* bob2 notes he is not from the us, nor ever watched fox news
<Amaranth> faux news?
<Jeeves_> bob2: I wasn't suggesting that. I was only telling where I'm from. And really, you haven't heard the story from Fox? :)
<\sh> bob2: r u joining udu?
<Jeeves_> \sh: No, that was only temporarily. About 60 years ago.. :)
<\sh> Jeeves_: hehe :) 
<bob2> \sh: I'll be there all week, yeah
<Jeeves_> \sh: And, that was not  really appreciated. :)
<bob2> (I work for canonical)
<\sh> bob2: ah :) do me a favour pls, if u meet ogra, pls tell him, that he has to buy some boomerangs 
<bob2> hehe
<\sh> ok guys...cu later today :)
<Jeeves_> Later
<|QuaD-> the next ubuntu conference should be held in NYC :)
<bob2> hah, don't like the chances of it being in the us
* daniels clears his throat (and involuntarily sneezes, thanks to the Ubuntu cold), notes that the topic of this channel is Ubuntu development, looks up at the scrollback.
<|QuaD-> bob2: why?
<|QuaD-> daniels: hehe sorry
<bob2> |QuaD-: no cherry ripes (google)
<Burgundavia_> daniels, <dig> I don't see a whole look of dev work going one</dig>
<nullaresnata> "Amaranth faux news?" lololol
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> tolkien.freenode.net
* Jeeves_ 's gone
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> tolkien.freenode.net
<Keybuk> meh, something screwy with evo and eds in breezy right now
<tseng> yeah
<tseng> libcamel
<Keybuk> not sure if we've picked up a sync-from-Debian by accident, or something
* Keybuk hauls breezy-changes half way around the world
<Keybuk> meh, elllllllllllllllmo
<tseng> i heard he was off all week
<tseng> sebbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb
<Keybuk> he is
<Keybuk> seb's off too
<Keybuk> but elmo is within shouting distance
<tseng> BUH
<Keybuk> if he's up
<Keybuk> Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:40:10 - Accepted evolution-data-server 1.2.2-1ubuntu1 (source)
<Keybuk> Mon, 18 Apr 2005 01:50:24 - Accepted evolution-data-server1.2 1.2.2-2 (source)
* Keybuk wonders if there's problem there ...
<Keybuk> yup!  the sync overwrote libebook1.2-3
<Mithrandir> would anybody scream if I turned the "link every library know to man" feature off in pkg-config for breezy?
<lifeless> is breezy open yet ?
<Mithrandir> lifeless: for a week
<Keybuk> eww
<lifeless> for a week, or in a week ?
<Keybuk> so Debian and us have different source names
<Keybuk> messy
<Amaranth> seb is off for a week?!?
<Amaranth> damnit, i've been waiting to ask him a question
<Keybuk> Amaranth: yeah, holidaying in Sydney
<Mithrandir> lifeless: for
<lifeless> 'holiday' ;)
<lifeless> we should get baz 1.3.2 in now then ;)
<Amaranth> there are also packages in breezy that depend on things that are only in sid
<Amaranth> like gnome-art depending on a lot of ruby 1.9 things
<Keybuk> yeah, in breezy be dragons
<jbailey> I wonder if the hotel has laundry facilities.
<mxpxpod> we should also get gnome-power and the new hal in too ;)
<Mithrandir> mjg59: are you in the gnome room?
<Mithrandir> if so, where the heck is it?
* Mithrandir sighs
<thom> mxpxpod: yes yes, working on it
<mxpxpod> thom: suhweet!
<Mithrandir> thom: any idea where everybody is?
<thom> Mithrandir: daniel, pasc, mjg59 and i just finished breakfast in burgman
<Mithrandir> ook
* Mithrandir is sitting outside where the gnome miniconf was rumored to be, but evidently isn't
<Mithrandir> bah, I'll just go back, I guess.
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: you popped your head in
<Keybuk> so you've been here
<Keybuk> saw all the gnomepeople
<Keybuk> and walked out again :)
<Keybuk> from Manning Clark, follow the "LCA miniconf" chalk across campus to the other building
<lifeless> a
<lifeless> very  unformtable in fact
<lifeless> garh
<lifeless> wireless cuky leads to wrong channels
<mjg59> Keybuk: Leaving which direction?
<Keybuk> mjg59: across the court, and towards the trees
<Keybuk> opposite direction to city
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: bah.  Silly me.
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: there's a sign saying "Cluster miniconf" there though.
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> it's to keep out the KDE people :)
<mdz_> Kamion: terraform and the hypothetical casper-installer want similar things from d-i
<Mithrandir> oh joy, uploading pictures over this link _sucks_.
<mxpxpod> if I compile my own kernel from a kernel at kernel.org and apply the inotify 0.22 patch to it (2.6.12-rc2), will it work with the stuff in hoary?
<mxpxpod> such as gamin
<Kamion> mdz-lca: sounded quite different to me; could you elaborate?
<Kamion> auto-raid-installation would do most of terraform, I think
<Kamion> mdz-lca: please merge colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/casper--cdebconf-info--0
<Kamion> mdz-lca: terraform reminded me more of the hypothetical CD-editing script (and your trivial implementation thereof)
* Keybuk debates an NIH option parser library
<daniels> Keybuk: getopt isn't good enough, huh?
<Keybuk> well, no
<mkedwards> I don't suppose the CD image construction scripts have been packaged.  (It now looks like I'm going to have to roll an amd64 install CD with 2.6.11.x + working aacraid.)
<jsgotangco> good morning!!!!
<srbaker> uh.
<srbaker> is libpq4 in sid significantly different from libpq3 in hoary?
<srbaker> i'm looking, and it looks like libpq4 is for pgsql 7.4?
<fabbione> morning
<ogra> hey fabbionne
<ogra> whoops fabbione
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> greetings from sydney :-D
<Mithrandir> hi ogra
<ogra> Mithrandir, are you at lca ?
<ogra> or just awake early ?
<crimsun> how's the sea, ogra? :)
<ogra> wasnt swimming yet
<ogra> doko, mvo and amu gone surfing today
<Mithrandir> ogra: yesw, LCA
<ogra> dholbach, seb128, pitti and me made aarbor tour
<ogra> aarbor/a harbor
<pitti> Hi guys
<ogra> the wifi in this hostel feels like surfing with a mobile phone
<pitti> this is pitti speaking from Down Under
<ogra> hey pitti
<infinity> ittid?
<Mithrandir> ogra: heh.
<pitti> ogra: I finally managed to get WEP working with linux-wlan-ng :-)
<ogra> hopefully it'll be better in the hotel next week
<Mithrandir> ogra: if it makes you happy, the network here is slow too, at least when I'm running SSH from home.
<infinity> ogra : All internet access in this country is like surfing with a mobile phone.  Cope. :)
<ogra> Mithrandir, just reading my mail on the server with my good old elm via ssh :)
<ogra> infinity, so how do you upload your packages then, thats horrible
<Mithrandir> infinity: apart from the non-bandwidth, the country is pretty nice, though
<infinity> ogra : I go get a coffee while it uploads.
* ogra would like to settle down in sydney immediately
<ogra> heh
<ajmitch_> hi ogra :)
<infinity> Mithrandir : Yeah, it's kinda like a less-cold-Canada, so I'm pretty at home here.  The only two downsides are the lack of bandwidth, and high prices of tech gear.
<ogra> hey ajmitch 
<ogra> :)
<ajmitch_> ogra: it'll be an improvement for me!
<ogra> ajmitch, i LOVE your part of the world ...
<Mithrandir> infinity: no idea about the tech gear, but the country seems mostly cheap so far.
<jdub> yo ogra 
<ogra> YAY jdub !!!
<jdub> ogra: you're out here already?
<ogra> it sooo wonderful here
<ogra> yep
<infinity> Mithrandir : Computer hardware is about 2 months behind and twice as expensive as I'd expect to buy it in North America.  S'why I bought my girlfriend's new computer in the US while we were there for CHristmas.
<ajmitch_> hey jdub
<ogra> in kings cross
<ajmitch_> jdub: congrats on the wedding
<jdub> ogra: ha ha, cool :)
<jdub> ajmitch_: thanks!
<ogra> jdub, err potts point i mean
<Mithrandir> infinity: heh (:
<infinity> jdub : Indeed, congrats.  I hope that inviting thom didn't turn out to be a horrible mistake? :)
<ogra> jdub, yeah, congrats, will we see pdub on the conference ?
<jdub> ogra: yep
<jdub> infinity: ha ha, no
<jdub> infinity: he had special duties ;)
<infinity> <cough>
<ogra> wow, great, looking forward to meet the woman that was crazy enough to marry you, jdub
<jdub> ;-)
* ogra guesses his susus is still asleep in germany...
<jsgotangco> wow
<jsgotangco> ogra is early
<jsgotangco> isn't kings cross that place where you can be mugged
<ajmitch_> ogra: adjusting to the TZ change ok?
<ogra> yep
<infinity> jsgotangco : Or see the hippo races.
<ogra> had a very hard day yersterday, but now its ok
<jsgotangco> doh
<ogra> jsgotangco, its directly behind the redlight destrict....
<jsgotangco> hmmm im arriving on the 24th in the morning...
<jsgotangco> i still wonder how i can get to the hotel..the train perhaps
<ogra> jsgotangco, thats not the hotel for the conference....
<ogra> jsgotangco, its a cheap backpackers hostel....(with flaky wlan :( )
<ajmitch_> yeah, I'm going to have fun with transport getting to UDU
<ajmitch_> since I arrive a day early
<jsgotangco> i was told the taxi would cost $30 ughh
<jsgotangco> but the shuttle would cost only $9
<ajmitch_> time to walk home from work :)
<jsgotangco> i do that all the time
<jsgotangco> ok lunch
<pitti> Hey seb128, dude! :-)
<pitti> hey mdz
<mdz-lca> morning
<fabbione> hey guys
<seb128> pitti, dude
<pitti> seb128: I'll come down to you soon, I just don't have power downstairs
<pitti> Hi fabbione 
<seb128> pitti, power sucks anyway
<Mithrandir> mdz-lca: are you going to jdub's gnome3 crackcrackcrack talk?
<seb128> hi fabbione 
<pitti> fabbione: come to us, nice city and loads of sun
<Mithrandir> hi seb128 
<fabbione> pitti: ehehhe
<seb128> pitti, the sun is hittijng my neck again
<seb128> ups
<fabbione> mdz-lca: we have problems with unionfs
<seb128> hey Mithrandir mdz-lca 
<fabbione> mdz-lca: on ppc it manage to ICE gcc-3.X
<fabbione> mdz-lca: we are still digging into the problem, but the code is dirty
<pitti> okay, see you later
<seb128> universe guys are saying hi too :p
* ogra tries out if the antenna works outside....
<ogra> hi mdz-lca btw ;)
<mdz-lca> Mithrandir: is that right now?
<Mithrandir> mdz-lca: in four minutes
<seb128> wb pitti 
<mdz-lca> Mithrandir: if I have to choose between mentoring and gnome ubercrack, I think I'll stay here
<mdz-lca> ogra: hi
<Mithrandir> mdz-lca: ok
<Kamion> mkedwards: colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/cdimage--mainline--0 in arch (http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson@canonical.com--2005)
<Kamion> mkedwards: they're pretty much entirely untested outside our systems, though
<Kamion> mkedwards: (oh, and 'baz build-config configs/devel' after checking that out)
<mdz-lca> fabbione: what's dirty in it?
<fabbione> mdz-lca: the code isn't really portable..
<fabbione> they wrote it with i386 only in mind
<fabbione> i managed to fix for amd64/ia64
<fabbione> at least now it builds.. no clue if it works
<fabbione> but ppc is a showstopper atm
<pitti> Hey ogra
<ogra> hmm, doesnt work outside :(
<ogra> hey pitti 
<ogra> pitti, tell dholbach coffee is ready :)
<pitti> ogra: done
<seb128> where should we assign bugs like "/etc/fstab has a floppy drive entry on a box without floppy drive" ?
<seb128> pitti, why do you guys let me alone ?
<ajmitch> wb ogra :)
<pitti> seb128: I come down again now
<ogra> heh
<calc> so i would like to note that supporting dmraid might be useful for users moving over from windows who have those onboard crap raid chips ;)
<calc> http://people.redhat.com/~heinzm/sw/dmraid/readme
<ogra> ajmitch, flaky wlan here...
<calc> not sure if i should stick that in the wiki somewhere
<ogra> YAY dholbach !!
<dholbach> hai
<seb128> calc, hi, have you fixed menu-xdg for debian ?
<calc> seb128: erm i think i forgot i was sick starting that night for over a week
* ogra applauds dholbach for his successfull wlan install
<seb128> dholbach, why are you hidding guy ?
<calc> seb128: i can fix it tomorrow or if you want to you can NMU it
<seb128> calc, k, some people complained about it for Debian, so if you want to fix it ... :)
<seb128> calc, nop, I'm on VAC atm, thanks :)
<ajmitch> hi dholbach 
<ajmitch> enjoying sydney?
<calc> seb128: ok
* calc bbl
<dholbach> sydney rocks
<ogra> YEAH, so hard
<jsgotangco> arggh
* jsgotangco getting excited more
<storekro> How can I do an automatic install and end up with the same thing as happens when you type "server" from the install cd?  I've got automatic installs working, but it by default installs the desktop.
<Kamion> storekro: server preseeds the following debconf questions:
<Kamion> archive-copier  archive-copier/copy     boolean false
<Kamion> base-config     base-config/package-selection   string
<Kamion> base-config     base-config/install-language-support    boolean false
<mdz-lca> fabbione: if we only have it on i386, that is enough to test it out
<storekro> Kamion: thanks. 
<storekro> Seems like I would want to do:
<storekro> base-config     base-config/package-selection   string  server
<storekro> ?
<storekro> as well as the other lines
<storekro> or will just leaving it blank suffice?
* storekro runs off to experiment
<Kamion> storekro: no
<mkedwards> Kamion: thanks, tooling up now to try cdimage.
<Kamion> storekro: you would not want to do that; there is no package called "server"
<fabbione> hey Kamion 
<storekro> Kamion: nod
<Kamion> fabbione: yo
<fabbione> Kamion: can we kill DEVFS support?
<Kamion> fabbione: no, initrd-tools requires it
<Kamion> the installer doesn't, but last I checked the installed initrd still did
<fabbione> mdz-lca: yes, we can test it, but if we are going to use it, we need to get it fixed
<fabbione> Kamion: i was only concerned about the installer
<fabbione> we can fix initrd-tools
<Kamion> fabbione: ok, but I think it needs to be fixed first rather than the other way round :-)
<Kamion> I thought jbailey was working on that
<fabbione> Kamion: right now mkinitrd bombs for other reasons
<fabbione> we are working on both
<fabbione> devfs will be removed from the kernel in July 2005
<fabbione> so it's better to remove it now than later
<schweeb> removal of devfs will be a joyous event :)
<fabbione> oh yeah
<fabbione> Kamion: take into account that some nrew stuff that is going in the kernel, OOPSes with devfs enabled :)
<schweeb> caused me many a problem over the years
<fabbione> Kamion: so we really need to kill it :)
<fabbione> but i am happy that the installer does not need it
<fabbione> that's enough for me
<Kamion> fabbione: sure
<fabbione> interesting :)
<fabbione> ccache over nfs works, but you lose the stats
<Kamion> hmm
<Kamion> none            /dev            devfs   defaults        0       0
<Kamion> the installer still has that in /etc/fstab
<Kamion> should be harmless though
<fabbione> Kamion: don't worry, i am not going to kill you right now
<fabbione> we have time to coordinate it
<Kamion> I don't think it's actually used if udev is there
<fabbione> Kamion: we will test it and kill it...
<fabbione> no rush
<fabbione> i just had to know if it is possible to kill it
<Kamion> I'll have to fix more stuff if we ever manage to resurrect floppy installs
<fabbione> ehehe
<Kamion> because that has a separate init which I never fixed
<fabbione> we need to discuss the feature removal schedule for the kernel
<fabbione> since we might get trapped by one of them
<fabbione> and the 4 scheduled right now, will be cleaned up by Sept. 2005
<fabbione> so it would be better to remove them immediatly
<fabbione> and see what happens
<storekro> Kamion: Thanks, that worked perfectly!
<storekro> Can I have multiple base-config/package-selection lines?
<storekro> For picking a bunch of packages to install?
* storekro does the automatic server install dance of joy
<Kamion> storekro: no, but you can put any aptitude pattern in there
<Kamion> storekro: see the aptitude manual - you end up with stuff like ~npackage1~npackage2~npackage3
<Kamion> er, sorry
<Kamion> (~npackage1|~npackage2|~npackage3)
<Kamion> I think
<storekro> Kamion: ok, I'll check it out.  thanks again.
<Kamion> np
<daniels> elmo: ping
<elmo> daniels: ?
<daniels> elmo: what sort of mono love do we have in new?
<elmo> there's nothing in new
<|QuaD-> no 1.1.x yet?
<fabbione> hey elmo 
<daniels> ahr
<fabbione> hi daniels 
<elmo> hi fabbione
<fabbione> elmo: having fun? :)
<elmo> fabbione: yah, mostly trying to stay awake, the jet lag sucks
<fabbione> elmo: yeah .. i will get there soon 
<\sh> hehe...
* \sh 's listening to "Men At Work - Down Under"
<fabbione> elmo: the rhcluster suite rocks :) we might as well use it on some boxes at the datacenter :)
<fabbione> elmo: the cool part is the machine monitoring..
<fabbione> elmo: that can take decisions according to defined policies.. and restart services/reboots machines/poweron/poweroff machines
<fabbione> but the royal win is GFS :)
<stuNNed> will ubuntu have better wireless support in the future, is that planned, for laptops?
<Treenaks> stuNNed: yes.
<Kamion> it's on the UDU discussion list IIRC
<jdub> fabbione: having fun? :)
<Treenaks> Kamion: it was on the Mataro discussion list as well..  ;)
<Kamion> Treenaks: and it was discussed - just slipped
<Treenaks> Kamion: true
<stuNNed> Treenaks: ok thanks cuz as of current I'm having alot of problems with it, should I file a bug you think?
<jdub> fabbione: can't wait 'til i get home to try :)
<Kamion> can't always get everything done in one release
<Treenaks> stuNNed: uh. what kind of problems?
<fabbione> jdub: yes.. i am having fun and got already 4 patches upstream
<jdub> fabbione: rad!
<stuNNed> Treenaks: shall I ask in #ubuntu or?
<Treenaks> stuNNed: wireless should just work.. switching betweed networks is the hard/annoying part
<fabbione> jdub: the real issue is the userland that doesn't build with gcc-4
<Treenaks> ouch
<fabbione> ... yet :)
<fabbione> but i am smashing it slowly
<Treenaks> ooh.. m4d h4ck1ng
<fabbione> https://www.redhat.com/archives/linux-cluster/2005-April/msg00051.html <-
<stuNNed> Treenaks: it remembers the key and ssid from previous connect, i.e. roaming isn't that great at all.
* Kamion dumps second version of cdebconf custom widget patch onto debian-boot
<stuNNed> Treenaks: and if i select and open ap it still uses the old key
<Treenaks> stuNNed: that's what I said.. switching networks is annoying
<stuNNed> Treenaks: yes, ok, thanks
<fabbione> jdub: after i wrote that patch i realized that Treenaks was rigth in Mataro'
<stuNNed> Treenaks: very :)
<fabbione> "you will get addicted to the kernel"
<Treenaks> fabbione: ;)
<jdub> fabbione: ha ha
<weazle> morning
<weazle> Treenaks: are those guys around sjoerd/pitti?
<Treenaks> weazle: sjoerd might be.
<weazle> sjoerd: !
<sjoerd> weazle: ?
<weazle> sjoerd: 
<weazle> ah
<GheRivero> res
<fabbione> infinity: ping?
<infinity> fabbione : pong.
<fabbione> infinity: #3442, mind to take a look? you did most of the last changes and since i don't fully understand them, perhaps it's better if you can manage them
* infinity looks.
<fabbione> it's about MOM
<infinity> Oh, yeah.  Reassing.
<infinity> assign, even.
<fabbione> infinity: ok thanks
<Treenaks> reassing.. that sounds.. interesting
<infinity> That's an old, closed bug, mind you. :)
<infinity> I assume you're pointing me at that, in reference to a new MOM bug?
<fabbione> infinity: yes. if a previous bug exists, a new one won't be opened
<infinity> That seems.. Weird.. How does one spot the merge request, if the bug is both FIXED, and the merge tag is removed?
<fabbione> infinity: you get a mail :)
<infinity> Well, someone does, anyway. :)
<infinity> Okay, I'll remerge it.
<infinity> I'm pretty much just doing merges today anyway.
<fabbione> infinity: thanks
<astharot> bonjour
<infinity> fabbione : Okay, you're a jerk.  You didn't tell me that keithp repackaged it and completely changed (again!) the debconf/conffile/local config scemantics. :)
<infinity> fabbione : In fact, on a second glance, I think keithp is smoking something.  I'll have to talk to him about his drug problem before I update this.
<infinity> Oh, nevermind.  I just figured out his crack.  Sick, sick man.l
<Treenaks> what happened?
<infinity> Oh, he just wrote the most unintuitive conf.d interface ever, that's all.
<infinity> It allows you to drop any old file in the conf.d... And only includes ones starting with ^[0-9] [0-9] 
<infinity> So you can have a bunch of inoperative files in your conf.d, and one or two that actually do something, named 10-foo, 20-bar, etc.
<infinity> Erid.
<infinity> Weird, too.
<Treenaks> *shudder*
<infinity> He also completely changed the debconf stuff, again.  Reverting to using an old debconf question that had at one point been removed.
<infinity> We were upgrading that one to a new one, now we need to go the other way. :)
<Treenaks> urgh
<fabbione> infinity: dude.. have fun :)
<babybat26> Hi every one! I've got a question. How can I rebuild or remaster Live CD iso image to change some configuration files (change keyboard layout, andadd russian  localisation)
<elbi> we want to setup a local ubuntu archive mirror, do you guys have a rsync script for that task?
<Treenaks> babybat26: read the wiki (LiveCDCustomizationHowto or something)
<babybat26> <Treenaks> LiveCDCustomizationHowto is in brasilian :( can I find this info on english?
<Treenaks> babybat26: search for Live CD ?
<Treenaks> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LiveCDCustomizationHowTo is English
<Treenaks> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LiveCDCustomizationHowTo-br is Brazilian
<babybat26> Thnx
<bluefoxicy> while I'm hurrying my ass out the door I should mention
<bluefoxicy> there needs to be a disk mounter icon or an automatic eject==umount handler for CDs
<bluefoxicy> I've got the disk mounter in my panel now, but cds auto-mount and then won't come back out >/
<bluefoxicy> (as mounting a CD locks the drive door)
<bluefoxicy> and this will confuse the shit out of people
<bluefoxicy> could probably autofs the damn thing. . .
<bluefoxicy> anyway I have work very very soon and can't write a bug so bye
<skyrider> What is the right place to report bugs in software from Hoary universe?
<skyrider> Should I fill this bugs in Malone?
<ups> skyrider: yes
<skyrider> ups: thanks. One more question: I want to fill bug against xdm but it isn't in the list of 'Source Package Name'. Should I register it with DOAP Registry first?
<ups> skyrider, i'm not sure on that. wait for someone else to answer
<skyrider> ups: ok. Noone seems to know this... :(
<fabbione> elmo: please sync kernel-package 8.132 from debian and you are clear to override
<kent> hmm, now I only see 15k ~ submissions on hwdb.ubuntu.com.  Did i dream about seeing ~20k some day ago?
<ogra> seb128, wont come downstairs ?
<seb128> du darfst nicht deutsch sprechen
<ogra> hehe
<seb128> ups :p
<ogra> seb128, look at that: www.tetris1d.org
<ogra> you simply cant loose ;)
<seb128> not sure, my laptop battery is half loaded atm
<ogra> ah, ok
<ogra> we have free plugs here....there is an adapter on my bed, grab it :)
* Treenaks WANT SO BE IN .AU
<seb128> mvo already did that
<ogra> Treenaks, youre missing the most beautiful city on this earthball
<pitti> Treenaks: it takes a while until you adapt to gravity pulling you upwards :-)
<ogra> hehe
<Treenaks> pitti: I don't doubt it.. but I wanted to be there too!
* pitti desperately tries to get a grip on the floop
<pitti> floor, even
<Treenaks> pitti: but.. new laptop.. boss.. much work.. etc..
<Treenaks> :(
<seb128> pitti, was machs du ? 
<pitti> seb128: hackhackhack@postgresql
<pitti> seb128: "machst"
<pitti> :)
<seb128> thanks :p
<pitti> seb128: dude, are you learning German upstairs?
<jbailey> fabbione, Kamion: We're not yet ready to kill devfs support for the initrd-tools.  I need about a month, I think.
<Treenaks> uh.. #ubuntu-de[vel]  ?
<seb128> no, but writting is always easier than speaking :p
<ogra> seb128, in fact you are speaking it very well
<seb128> hey jbailey 
<pitti> -> offtopic
<ogra> pitti, jbailey is offtopic ? why ?
<jbailey> Heya sb!
<seb128> right
* pitti slaps ogra
<jbailey> (and everyone else) =)
<pitti> daniels: here?
<ajmitch> jordi: when is freeciv 2.0 going into sid rather than experimental? :)
<jordi> ajmitch: in a few days I guess.
<ajmitch> ok
<ajmitch> just getting request for it in breezy
<jordi> I'd like to have a few tilesets to upload to unstable as well.
<seb128> duuuude
<jordi> ajmitch: can't you use the exp version?
<ajmitch> though it can probably go in as-is
<jordi> seb128: DUDE
<seb128> :)
<ajmitch> sure we can use the exp version
<jordi> I uploaded libxklavier
<seb128> good guy
<jordi> seb128: DUDE, can I add gnome-python2 to svn and upload?
<seb128> sure
<jordi> k
<seb128> which one ? 2.6 ?
<fabbione> jbailey: we need to kill it a bit before that
<jordi> hmm, isn't there a 2.10?
<seb128> yep, there is
<fabbione> jbailey: in a month devfs won't be upstream anymore 
<ogra> jordi, what does it break ?
<seb128> 2.6 is pygtk in fact
<jbailey> fabbione: Eh?  Just posted to lkml?
<ajmitch> hi  jeff :)
<jordi> seb128: so should I upload 2.6 too?
<fabbione> jbailey: no. Documentation/feature-removal.txt
<jordi> seb128: I thought you were on vacation or something
<fabbione> jbailey: it has been there for a long while :)
<seb128> 2.6 is probably uptodate
<jordi> seb128: you have abandoned us.
<fabbione> jbailey: May 3005 : bye bye devfs
<seb128> jordi, I am, I said it on #gnome-debian saturday
<jordi> seb128: ok, so I need to upload 2.10 to exp and use the opportunity to rename the source package?
<jordi> seb128: what are you doing in #ubuntu-devle then?
<seb128> jordi, I'm on VAC with pitti and the other guys for the week
<jordi> :)
<jordi> nod
<seb128> jordi, pitti forced me
<seb128> :p
<jordi> pitti: dude
<seb128> right
<jordi> seb128: great. Have a nice time.
<jbailey> fabbione: Bah.
<jordi> Any other package of yours that I should upload?
<seb128> jordi, don't forget than they splitted gnome-python upstream
<jordi> seb128: yeesh, damn. How?
<seb128> you break stuff use gtkhtml
<jbailey> fabbione: That's a bit tight for what I want.  Well... At least I know what I'm hacking on right after UDU then.
<seb128> gnome-python is the desktop part
<jordi> seb128: what needs to be done?
<seb128> -extras is the other stuff
<seb128> look on hoary 
<jordi> ok
<seb128> package both stuff and fixed the packages to depend on -extras if required
<jordi> ok, back to your vacation. :)
<pitti> jordi: the amount of force I had to apply was about "hey seb128, what about a week of vac in Sydney?" :-)
<jordi> are there many packages that need -extras?
<jordi> pitti: no, you forced him into IRC!
<seb128> no idea at all
<fabbione> jbailey: ok, we need to be able to start uploading some crash kernels... first is to get mkinitrd to behave with the new ldd output, we can kill devfs at a later stage, but as soon as upstream removes it, we need to kill it too
<jordi> seb128: ok. I'll wait for the bug reports. Heh heh.
<seb128> cool
<ogra> fabbione, see that you do all your uploading before UdU, i heard the bandwith sucks here everywhere
<jordi> there's a shitload of pkgs depending on python-gtk2 now.
<fabbione> ogra: i don't need to upload from UdU :)
<seb128> that's python-gnome2, not pygtk
<ogra> (it feels like surfing on a mobile)
<fabbione> ogra: i just need to sign the .dsc and changes from there :)
<ogra> fabbione, ah, but keep in mind that ssh sucks even more fom here
<fabbione> ogra: well it's not a big deal.. there is no time for hacking sessions anyway
<ogra> yep, sadly
<ogra> it should have been two weeks, since the most expensive part is the filgt...
<ogra> fabbione, did you see this insane schedule ? 
<fabbione> ogra: yes
<ogra> i refuse to split my BOF in four parts....i wouldnt be able to attend any others
<ogra> thats just insane
<jordi> oh, pythong-gnome2
<jordi> both needs updating I guess?
<seb128> jordi, I think pygtk is uptodate
<tseng> ogra: oh man yeah, i have some conflicts now
<jordi> seb128: oh, ok.
<theine> there's a bug in /var/lib/dpkg/info/fontconfig.config from fontconfig version 2.3.1-2ubuntu1, which doesn't allow the package to be properly configured
<jbailey> fabbione: Yup, that's a task for today.
<theine> it's easily fixed, the statement in line 31 just needs to be moved oustide the case construct
<theine> sorry in advance if this is the wrong way of reporting it...
<pitti> g'night
<ogra> tseng, conflicts ?
<ogra> tseng, you ean the BOF schadule ?
<ogra> mean even
<tseng> yes
<tseng> there is universe at the same time as proactivesecurity
<ajmitch> how annoying
<jbailey> tseng: I'm hoping in a few cases that two rooms share a door so I can stand in the doorway. =)
<tseng> hah.
<ogra> tseng, yeah, it seems nobody is happy with the schadule
<ajmitch> jbailey: i think they share a room
<ogra> s/a/e
<ajmitch> perhaps :)
<tseng> ok then, no use arguing over it now
<jbailey> ajmitch: That would work.  I'll just send a paper airplane over to the other groups occasionally with my comments. ;)
<ajmitch> :)
<ajmitch> I may rely on that too
<jbailey> Sounds like we're trying a variant on "open space technologies" concepts.  Should be interesting to see.
<jbailey> A church group I was in tried it like that, and it didn't work so well because people were permitted to flow freely between whenever - the problem is that two groups got everyone when a really interesting debate sprung up. =)
<jbailey> (And we had a dozen groups for about 120 people)
<kent> Will Uubuntu down Under (thats the schedule you people are talking about right?) be streamed live (or recorded and availibel for download later on?)
<ogra> kent, we hope it will be recorede...but it depends...
<ajmitch> slim possibilty of streaming, depending on internet connection at the hotel
<ajmitch> but knowing australia, probably very slim
<ogra> ajmitch, unlikely
<kent> I would not mind downloading movies later with the talks..  It would be cool to have! :)
<jbailey> fabbione: Is Documentation/feature-removal.txt new?  I don't see it in linux-source-2.6.10
<fabbione> Documentation/feature-removal-schedule.txt 
* fabbione hands an extra TAB to jbailey 
<fabbione> but yes..
<fabbione> that file is new
<jbailey> Bah, so you can't blame me for not knowing this ;)
<fabbione> i didn't blame you :)
<fabbione> i was informing you
* fabbione hides
<Mitario> lo everyone
<Treenaks> hey Mitario 
<koke> Mitario: have to go now but tell me what do you think about http://www.amedias.org/~koke/patches/update-manager_run-synaptic-when-dist-upgrade-is-needed.diff
<dholbach> ha... back again
<seb128> hey daniel
<Mitario> koke, ok i will :)
<dholbach> hey seb! :-)
<dholbach> seb128: long time no see! :-)
<ogra> hehe
<ogra> dholbach, is mvo still around ?
<dholbach> ogra: lying in bed
<ogra> ah, ok
<seb128> dholbach, right, had a good night ? :p
<dholbach> seb128: yeah, i feel like fixing 100 packages tonight, only problem is the bandwidth ;-)
<seb128> ah ah
<ajmitch> dholbach: post a cd with the sources on them ;)
<seb128> is that a challenge ? :p
<dholbach> haha... mr challenge is back
<ogra> dholbach, fix them on your fathers vserver and upload from there ;)
<jsgotangco> ogra hows sydney
<ogra> the most beautiful city in the world....
<ogra> i'd like to settle down here :)
<jsgotangco> i will experience that in a few days
<jsgotangco> good idea
<ogra> yeah...you'll enjoy it...
<ogra> if you can make it, stay a day or two extra to actually se more then the hotel 
<jsgotangco> im staying an extra day
<jsgotangco> my plane leaves on may 2
<jsgotangco> so i have may 1 free
<jsgotangco> :)
* ogra needs to grab his power plug... upstairs
<jsgotangco> plus i arrive on the 24th at 7am
<ogra> jsgotangco, great
<jsgotangco> ogra, but i can't find an adapter plug here i gotta buy from there
<jsgotangco> ive been searching all thru the shops here
<abelli> ciao
<Goshawk> abelli, ciao
<abelli> Goshawk: ciao
<jsgotangco> abelli, ciao
<zul> hey
<ogra> seb128, http://jriddell.org/photos/2005-04-18-sydney-geeks-find-internet-oliver-pitti-seb.jpg
<seb128> bah
<ogra> heh
<ogra> wb dholbach 
<dholbach> pitti's usb-wlan thingie gets too hot :-/
<dholbach> the box crashes then
<ogra> dholbach, hmm
<ogra> weird
<ogra> the whole box ?
<dholbac1> sleep tight everyone
<jbailey> Anyone here got an amd64 running breezy?
<Zomb> hi
<Zomb> are i18n somehow stripped away in Ubuntu packages?
<Zomb> missing translations in wget and mutt
<jbailey> Zomb: Yup, install the appropriate language pack
<cartman> jbailey: wednesday is the day for glibc upload? :)
<jbailey> cartman: Probably, yeah.
<cartman> jbailey: okies
<\sh> guys...new from HP...
<\sh> [17:38]  <\sh> hp wants to give a special ubuntu linux distro to their laptops..they don't want to force their customers to buy a windows xp version ;)
<\sh> [17:38]  <\sh> article in german on heise: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/58740
<zul> now way!
<zyga> \sh: wooooow
* zyga wonders what's the 'special' part
<\sh> zyga: me too ;) support by canocical for two years? :)
<lamont> jbailey: you want to grab 9263? (cdbs merge from debian)
<fabbione> that would be about time :)
<zyga> \sh: probably a good idea
<zyga> \sh: hp feels safe this way
<zyga> canonical gets support contacts
<zyga> and WE can finally buy quality laptops without windows ;>
<zyga> hmm
<zyga> I'm getting constant problems with k3b
<jbailey> lamont: Yup
<jbailey> lamont: I'll do it this afternoon.  Need to arrange some tax stuff first.
<zyga> how does cdrecord from debian differ from vanilla cdrecord?
<da_bon_bon> how does ubuntu use grepmap to speed up hotplug ? can i use it on other distros ?
<zyga> hey
<zyga> there is some kind of bug with amd64-libs-dev 
<zyga> Preparing to replace linux-kernel-headers 2.5.999-test7-bk-17 (using .../linux-kernel-headers_2.6.11.2-0ubuntu3_i386.deb) ...
<zyga> Unpacking replacement linux-kernel-headers ...
<zyga> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/linux-kernel-headers_2.6.11.2-0ubuntu3_i386.deb (--unpack):
<zyga>  trying to overwrite `/usr/include/asm/kdebug.h', which is also in package amd64-libs-dev
<stuNNed> Treenaks: so i shouldn't file a bug regarding wpasupplicant and wifi cuz we know there is a problem with wifi support in linux and roaming access?
<stuNNed> ] /win 4
<stuNNed> ooops sorry
<Treenaks> stuNNed: !!??
<Treenaks> stuNNed: just file it...
<stuNNed> ok sheesh
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> tolkien.freenode.net
<orangehaw> fabbione: is there any change i could test the 2.6.12 rc to get my soundcard working? It's the  Intel Corp. 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) High Definition Audio Controller 
<orangehaw> i'm (k)ubuntu hoary 2.6.10-5-686-smp now
<orangehaw> from <perex@suse.cz> in rc1 I read: Added a new Intel High-Definition audio driver. The driver consists of two separate modules: the generic support module for HD codecs (snd-hda-codec), and the driver for Intel ICH6/7 chipset (snd-hda-intel) and it also says that snd-hda-intel was formerly called sn-azx in ALSA 1.0.8 and I tried that, but didn't work
<ficusplanet> Hey everyone.  I was just have a few questions about Breezy development: are you guys planning on using Fedora HAL patches for CUPS?  And have the quabbles with NetworkManager been resolved?
<tortoise_> ficus what do the HAL patches for CUPS do?
<ficusplanet> They will attempt to automatically find the driver for a printer when plugged in and set it up.  If the driver can't be automatically determined, it will give a list of possiblities.
<tortoise_> Is it in FC4?
<ficusplanet> In FC3, too.
<kent> ficusplanet, That feature would be nice. I saw it on my brothers Fedora #3. I plugged in a HP-printer, and up came a dialog about it. I remember pressing OK or something, and after that it was ready to print.  Very nice.
<Kosai> Hello.  Any Japanese speakers/writers around?  Hoary doesn't seem to ship with a font that can handle kana combining.
<zyga> Kosai: hello I don't speak japanase (nor write)
<zyga> Kosai: but I'm interested in having japanese enabled ubuntu 
<zyga> jbailey: ping
<jbailey> zyga: pong
<jbailey> zyga: I don't speak Japanese either ;)
<zyga> jbailey: do you maintain libc or is my mind wrong again?
<jbailey> zyga: Notwithstanding that we don't have maintainers in that sense, I'm one of the primary people who babysits it, yeah.
<zyga> jbailey: great, there seems to be an issue around it but I might be adressing the wrong person - anyway let's go
<jbailey> Sure, what's up?  I'm planning an upload tomorrow.
<zyga> upgrading libc6 breaks
<jbailey> What arch?
<zyga> not libc but the upgrade itself
<zyga> I'll flood you in person ok?
<jbailey> Sure.  Paste away.
<jbailey> Hmm, cupsys doesn't like me anymore.
<zyga> that action was required by a dependance of libc6-dev IIRC
<zyga> I'm trying to switch to breezy
<jbailey> Right.  amd64-libs-dev is broken.  It should not touch things in /usr/include/asm
<zyga> jbailey: should I file a bug report?
<jbailey> Is amd64-libs-dev the one that can be installed on i386, or is it the one that gets installed on amd64 boxes?
<zyga> (or is there any faster method?)
<zyga> jbailey: that's the one on i386 box
<jbailey> I don't play with amd64 at all right now, so if I can work with you, I can get it fixed pretty quick.
<zyga> BTW: why is it there anyway?
<zyga> jbailey: this is on i386 
<jbailey> Presumably you built something for amd64 at some point.
<jbailey> No idea - it's not on my system. (Installing it now)
<zyga> jbailey: no
<zyga> hell - not on this box :>
<zyga> trying to remove it causes lots of -dev dependecny problem
<jbailey> Oh?  Like what?
<zyga> jbailey: w8
<jbailey> I don't have a package called w8 on my box...
<jbailey> Is it i386 only?  I checked on ppc.
<zyga> jbailey: I dont have access to my amd64 box ATM
<zyga> jbailey: hmm how can I force apt-get to remove that package without paying attention to missing deps?
<zyga> jbailey: synaptics shows that after removing amd64-libs-dev I loose practically all my -dev packages
<zyga> as well as some other (like tomboy for no good reason, probably due to other dependencies)
<zyga> lsb goes out too
<jbailey> zyga: dpkg --force-deps --remove
<jbailey> lsb?  hmm
<jbailey> Must be something weird.  I have lsb installed and didn't have that package.
<zyga> jbailey: trying
<Amaranth> zyga: Yeah, tomboy depends on libdbus-cil which for some stupid reason depends on dbus-glib-dev or something.
<zyga> root@falcon:/home/zyga # dpkg --force-deps --remove amd64-libs-dev
<zyga> dpkg: unknown force/refuse option `deps'
<blueyed> The fontconfig package in breezy seems to be broken. Is this known already?
<blueyed> Richte fontconfig ein (2.3.1-2ubuntu1) ...
<blueyed> /var/lib/dpkg/info/fontconfig.config: line 31: syntax error near unexpected token `fontconfig/rendering_type'
<blueyed> dpkg: Fehler beim Bearbeiten von fontconfig (--configure):
<blueyed>  Unterprozess post-installation script gab den Fehlerwert 2 zurck
<jbailey> I've seen that, I don't know if it's in bugzilla/malone yet.
<blueyed> should I file this somewhere?
<uniq> zyga: --force-depends
<jbailey> Hmm, /dev/usb/lp0 is root, root.  That's probably not right.
<zyga> uniq: thnx
<uniq> jbailey: breezy? 
<jbailey> zyga: Pulled down the amd64-libs package, looking at it now.
<jbailey> uniq: Yup.  I'm guessing something was lost in the udev merge.
<zyga> jbailey: thanks
<zyga> hmmm
<zyga> infinite blob of this:
<uniq> jbailey: I think it's hotplug.
<zyga> perl: warning: Falling back to the standard locale ("C").
<zyga> perl: warning: Setting locale failed.
<zyga> perl: warning: Please check that your locale settings:
<zyga>         LANGUAGE = "pl_PL.UTF-8",
<zyga>         LC_ALL = (unset),
<zyga>         LANG = "pl_PL.UTF-8"
<zyga>     are supported and installed on your system.
<zyga> (I think I should fix that someday :P)
<zyga> (I didn't really check if it was infinite)
<uniq> jbailey: as for my usb-storage-devices modprobing sd_mod did fix my problem.. I would guess hotplug fails to load the correct modules.. or something.. only my $0.2
<zyga> I'll let it log somewhere and try anyway
<zyga> okay done
<jbailey> uniq: THat's not it in this case, since I see the device in udev, and the device reigstered in syslog.
<jbailey> uniq: It's more a udev problem that the device is created with permissions that I think the cupsys daemon can't use.
<uniq> jbailey: ahh.. ok.. so it's basically a config issue in udev then..
<jbailey> In one of udev or cups.  Dunno for certain which yet.
<jbailey> I usually blame udev.
<uniq> I would do that too :)
<jbailey> Oh interesting.  It looks like it's doing the bi-arch hack that we already do for sparc and ppc64.
<jbailey> hmmhmmhmm
<jbailey> Mithrandir: ping?
<Mithrandir> hiya?
<jbailey> Mithrandir: I need multiarch advice. =)
<Mithrandir> oh, for amd64-libs?
<jbailey> amd64-libs-dev is trying to overwrite a kernel header - by the looks of it, it generates a series of wrappers the same way I do now for biarch systems in l-k-h.
<jbailey> Mithrandir: Do you think that having l-k-h provide those wrappers to amd64 and i386 is a good idea?
<jbailey> I could use GCC tags to figure out whether the i386 or x86-64 headers should be called.
<jbailey> Or does this just cause grief for the multiarch plans?
<Mithrandir> jbailey: yeah, I guess the hack's in there to avoid messing with gcc, glibc and lkh.
<Mithrandir> it shouldn't matter, multiarch will move the headers to /usr/include/$arch anyhow
<Mithrandir> so as long as you don't stick anything there yet, it should be just fine
<jbailey> So when we do multiarch, we just undo the hack for each case.
<Mithrandir> makes sense
<zyga> jbailey: removed - seems to update fine so far
<mjg59> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/58740
<jbailey> zyga: Cool.  This package scares me.  It divert headers out of the way and generates wrappers and such for them.
<zyga> jbailey: I've heard :> 
<zyga> jbailey: I'm a programmer, packaging scares me :>
<Mithrandir> heh
<\sh> zyga: hehe....:) debian packaging scared the hell out of me...now it's just like writing shelll scripts ;)
<zyga> (should have said: I'm a C programmer ...)
<zyga> actually I never packaged anything
<zyga> probably simple once you do it for a while
<zyga> btw does multiarch adress the issue of double arch setups?
<zyga> dpkg: ostrzeenie - nie mona usun poprzedniego pliku `/etc/udev/permissions.d': Katalog nie jest pusty
<zyga> Przygotowanie do zastpienia wireless-tools 27-1ubuntu1 (wykorzystujc .../wireless-tools_27-3ubuntu1_i386.deb) ...
<zyga> Rozpakowanie pakietu zastpujcego wireless-tools ...
<zyga> sorry for polish
<zyga> Wystpiy bdy podczas przetwarzania:
<zyga>  /var/cache/apt/archives/mono-assemblies-base_1.0.5-3_all.deb
<zyga> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
<zyga> Katalog nie jest pusty = directory is not empty
<jbailey> The mono bug is known, but I can't help with that.
<zyga> root@falcon:~ # ls /etc/udev/permissions.d/
<zyga> udev.permissions
<zyga> okay I'll dump mono for the moment
<Mithrandir> zyga: just remove libdbus-cil and you should be fine
<zyga> Mithrandir: ok
<trulux> fabbione: thanks for your work on the LSM net. hooks bug
<zyga> hmm
<zyga> firefox just crashed for me ... 
<jbailey> ephy dies on my on a regular basis in breezy.  I plan to whine at sb when I see him in .au. =)
<jcole> i'm on breezy. i can't log into gnome after my last upgrade... logged into xfce now... anything i don't know? also, loading any type of gnome app takes a really long time or doesn't even load... kde logs in just fine too
<tseng> ephy isnt installable in breezy
<tseng> er, thats evo sorry
<tseng> time for nap.
<zyga> I've swapped two lines in /var/lib/dpkg/info/fontconfig.conf 
<zyga> I don't know if it's correct but it configures fine now
<zyga> okay, apart from some missing deps on a few things I'm running breezy now
<zyga> thanks :-)
<dilinger> infinity: hey, will you be at UDU?
<zyga> UDU is in .au?
<Robot101> that's why it's called ubuntu down under...
<zyga> hehehe
<zyga> :-)
<zyga> any particular reason for it to be in .au/
<Robot101> couple of the ubuntu guys live there, and it's just before LCA
<zyga> (that's pretty far away unless you're an aussie)
<zyga> LCA?
<Robot101> linux.conf.au
<zyga> ah :)
<jcole> zyga: what lines did you swap to get rid of that error?
<jcole> zyga: i've got the same
<jcole> zyga: i'm guessing line 31 and 32 (esac)
<jcole> zyga: i'm getting a "Not replacing deleted config file /etc/fonts/local.conf"
#ubuntu-devel 2005-05-01
<thom> Robot101: just *after* lca
<thom> dilinger: still awake?
<dilinger> yea
<dilinger> thom: modperl2?
<thom> yeah; although off topic for here really :-) you're on #d-d on oftc, right?
<dilinger> yep
<astharot> guys
<astharot> but where's pitti?
<pitti> Morning
<ogra> hi pitti
<amu> moin 2
<ogra> pitti, amu, where do i find the room schedule for the hotel ?
* pitti has no clue
<ogra> hmm
<dholbach> hey
<zyga> pitti: morning :-)
<pitti> Hey zyga 
<zyga> just curious, do you live in .au?
<pitti> zyga: right now, yes :-)
<pitti> yay
<dholbach> hey pitti 
<pitti> ppc sleep with DRI
<mjg59> pitti: Yeah, I'm speaking to benh about it
<zyga> darn you guys
<pitti> mjg59: I tried the "AGPMode" "4" option
<zyga> you're just mocking us, poor i386 people ;-)
<astharot> oll
<schweeb> "poor i386 people"?
<schweeb> I'm pretty happy with the x86 platform
<dholbach> hey schweeb 
<schweeb> hiya
<mjg59> zyga: Hey, sleep with DRI works fine on a lot of x86
<astharot> yesterday at a linux meeting
<astharot> I saw ubuntu installed on an iBook :P
* pitti loves his ibook
* zyga never had working sleep on any box 
<astharot> the guy told me that something misses :P
<pitti> astharot: apart from the crappy softmodem, everything works for me now
<infinity> dilinger : Yes.
<astharot> pitti: airport too?
<pitti> oh, VGA out doesn't
<zyga> pitti: ibook?
<pitti> astharot: no, airport doesn't work, but I don't have an airport card; I use an USB WLAN adapter
<astharot> oh ok
<zul> hola
<pitti> Hey zul
<pitti> daniels: ping
<zul> hey pitti how is it going?
<pitti> fine, enjoying my Sydney holiday
<zul> cool
<zyga> pitti: grab me a pack of farscape dvds ;-)
<dholbach> hellas zul
<zul> hey dholbach 
<Keybuk> Kamion: ping?
<AndyFitz> quiet here as well
<ogra> dholbach, how is the wlan behaving ?
<pitti> schlooow
<seb128> schnell
<Kamion> Keybuk: yeah?
<Keybuk> Kamion: what happened to the poster thing?
<Kamion> Keybuk: oh, it's in my room, drat
<Kamion> Keybuk: will fetch it at lunchtime
<Keybuk> ok, fair enough -- today seems a good day to get people to sign it
<Kamion> yep
<infinity> Keybuk : Hey, is MOM smart enough to track package renames (like mozilla-firefox -> firefox) and one-to-many source package relations (php4 in Debian -> php4/php4-universe in Ubuntu)?
<infinity> Keybuk : Assuming one informs it of said renames, of course (ie: Is there a package relation override or something?)
<dholbach> ogra: slow
<ogra> dholbach, but not glowing anymore ?
<mike_douglas> I heard that %post runs after the base install but before the desktop install. Is there a way to get it to run after everything is finished installing?
<Keybuk> infinity: no, it explicitly cannot handle that
<Keybuk> neither can lorraine (the sync script)
<Keybuk> so we've just blacklisted mozilla-firefox
<Keybuk> (otherwise we'd stupidly sync it over-top of our firefox packages)
<Kamion> mike_douglas: no - preseed base-config/late_command instead
<infinity> Keybuk : Dang.  Oh well. :)
<ogra> is mdz around ?
<dholbach> ogra: no... have a longer usb cable now
<dholbach> ogra: but my OOo is broken *grrrrr* have to paint my slides by hand or something
<pitti> "Use latex-beamer, Luke"
<pitti> (SCNR)
<bluefoxicy> pitti:  latex offers better protection than rubber
<zyga> bluefoxicy: hi
<bluefoxicy> hi
<zyga> bluefoxicy: any progress?
<bluefoxicy> nope, been busy with work
<squinn> From a Gentoo user, thanks.
<squinn> I'm coming back to Ubuntu and I'm glad you guys make such an awesome distribution.
<tsume> has anyone made a patch for wget yet?
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I plan on writing proof of concept code tommorow
<squinn> And the best April Fools' bootsplash I've ever seen. :)
<bluefoxicy> zyga:  any stats on used vs allocated and (allocated-used)/allocated == %wasted
* tsume looks at versoin
<bluefoxicy> in typical long (4-5 hour) runs of i.e. firefox, thunderbird?
<zyga> bluefoxicy: and sorry for saying, malloc code is really big ;>
<bluefoxicy> I know
<bluefoxicy> :)
<zyga> bluefoxicy: not yet unfortunatly
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I still do not quite understand what fails in my example stats gather code
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I plan to write trivial allocator that uses memory better (in a worst case scenaro) than malloc does currently
<dholbach> bye guys
<zyga> (worst case for malloc ;-)
<bluefoxicy> yeah
<bluefoxicy> i'm working that way
<infinity> tsume : What sort of patch?
<zyga> bluefoxicy: would you like to have a look at my code
<tsume_> infinity: oh, well I guess its fixed already
<bluefoxicy> nah
<bluefoxicy> i code on my own
<zyga> bluefoxicy: I still have no clue why it works on test programs and fails on stuff like ls
<tsume_> infinity: I seen the version for wget. I usually use curl because its better.
<tsume_> and for the reason I like how the haxx.se site talks about the GPL :P
<tsume_> infinity: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=bugtraq&m=110269474112384
<tsume_> infinity: I also dislike wget because it suffers from ignorant developers ;)
<zyga> tsume_: ignorant developers?
<daniels> pitti: pong
<tsume_> zyga: from the developer's mouth
<tsume_> zyga: he admits he doesn't update the code
<tsume_> zyga: wget really should be taken out if the dev is going to half way abandon the project
<tsume_> zyga: curl power ;)
* tsume_ wonders about forcing a delete on wget..
<tsume_> I don't want it in base(and usually don't) when there are ignorant developers involved
<pitti> daniels: uh, just going now... dbus really rocks now, just needs to not restart hal if upgrading from 0.23...
<Kamion> wget> first look at its reverse-depends
<zyga> tsume_: wget has brand recognition
<daniels> pitti: mmm
<zyga> tsume_: I'm a developer and I've never heard of curl :>
<daniels> i'm on holiday this week :)
<tsume_> Kamion: ignoring depends, and symlinking wget to curl
<zyga> tsume_: is it possible to have a wget wrapper around curl if it's technically superrior?
<tsume_> zyga: I first heard of curl by libwww
<Kamion> tsume_: ignoring depends gets you into PAIN; you should create a dummy package instead if you want to go that way
<tsume_> hmmm
<tsume_> zyga: very good question
<tsume_> zyga: I don't see the harm of wrapping the program sn libwget libs(if any) to curl
<zyga> tsume_: :-)
<tsume_> Kamion: good thinking. I'll create a dummy package
<zyga> tsume_: now you see the real world issue ;-)
<pitti> bye
<pitti> bye
<tsume_> zyga: I'm a security mon :) I can't stand a program when I _know_ theres bad/unmaintained code.
<zyga> tsume_: I'm a lazy person, I use it until it breaks
<zyga> ;-)
<tsume_> zyga: hehe. even a car? :P
<zyga> tsume_: nah, I don't use those
<tsume_> zyga: I bet you drive a plymoth reliant ;)(nerd car)
<zyga> tsume_: they are using obsolete technology, I'm still waiting for cold fusion
<Kamion> 02:19 < CIA-2> debian-installer: cjwatson * r26922 packages/cdebconf/ (debian/changelog src/cdebconf.conf-dist.in):
<Kamion> 02:19 < CIA-2> debian-installer: Add config instances for the standard debconf databases in /target, so that
<Kamion> 02:19 < CIA-2> debian-installer: we can do 'debconf-copydb -p foo/bar configdb target_configdb' once the base
<infinity> tsume_ : Well, the worst of those bugs is the non-cleansing of chars output to the terminal.
<Kamion> 02:19 < CIA-2> debian-installer: system is installed.
<Kamion> mdz-lca: ^-- cdebconf 0.76 will have that
<infinity> tsume_ : Given that someone who can SEE they're downloading .bashrc should expect it to break, I don't much care that it lets you do that, but if you can hide that from the user, then two two together are bad.
<Kamion> infinity: I was never convinced that was a bug in the first place
<infinity> tsume_ : Patching that one bug shouldn't be that painful.
<infinity> Kamion : Which?  The control chars bug?
<Kamion> infinity: yeah
<mdz-lca> Kamion: yay!
<infinity> Kamion : Not a bug as in "can't reproduce it", or "you don't think it should cleanse terminal output"?
<Kamion> infinity: the latter
<Kamion> infinity: well, that's too strong
<infinity> I dunno.  Allowing an HTTP response to overwrite your terminal and hide what it it you're downloading is a bit iffy.
<infinity> s/it it/it is/
<Kamion> infinity: but "you shouldn't download a random file from the net to stdout unless you have some clue what it is"
<Kamion> it really always felt like a "don't do that, then"
<infinity> Oh, is it just when using -O?
<infinity> From reading the bug, I assumed it was HTTP responses being able to cleverly overwrite the status line (by delivering goofy filenames, for instance)
<Kamion> ah, perhaps I misunderstood
<infinity> If it's just when writing to stdout, then I'm with you on the DDTT.
<Kamion> I agree that that would be a bug
<Kamion> #261755 looks like HTTP responses, certainly
<infinity> Of course, with all these expoilts in HTTP clients, I'm always left wondering "where the heck are people browsing and downloading from that they have to worry about malicious web servers?", but.... Whatever. :)
<infinity> Kamion : Kay, and bad HTTp responses being able to overwrite status lines, combined with the fact that you can wget pretty much any file (that you don't already have) spells trouble.
<infinity> Kamion : I read your wget user agent banner, determine that as a Debian/Ubuntu user, you probably don't have a .profile (for instance), send you a .profile, but update your screen so you think you're downloading foo.tar.gz.
<Kamion> infinity: mm, fair enough, yeah
<jalrnc> hello, is anyone experiencing problems with the ubuntu wiki? I'm not able to save pages after editing... preview works fine though.
<infinity> Also, is anyone working on the evolution mess?
<infinity> We have evolution-data-server 1.2.2 in main (which needs to be rebuilt to pull in proper deps, looks like) and evolution-data-server1.2 1.2.2 in universe which should most likely be dropped completely.
<infinity> At least, that's what I got out of 5 minutes of looking into it.
<tseng> its an unexpected sync from sid
<tseng> it will be fixed when seb returns, I imagine
<tsume_> question, can the OSS community trust Novell?
<tseng> "the oss community" is a group of informed individuals, decide for yourself
<tseng> but thats way OT
<tsume_> tseng: its on topic, its a question to ask if anyone can trust Novell taking over linux and open source projects
<tseng> no, its not
<tseng> and i have yet to see novell "take" over linux or any oss projects
<infinity> tsume_ : This is a development channel, not a philosophy channel.
<tseng> I have seen them open source their own code
<tsume_> tseng: they took over suse... :(
<tseng> suse still operates largely as it has in the past
<tsume_> tseng: yes, but because they were the ones behind netware.. it scares me
<tseng> anyway, go do your homework
<tseng> I dont want to argue with misinformation
* tseng sleep.
<robertj> btw, speaking of netware, does Linux support 64 bit uids?
<Lathiat> yeh in recent kernels iirc
* tsume_ grins
* tsume_ smiles
<tsume_> curl is _so_ much nicer than wget
<tsume_> even the downloading status us more specific
<Kosai> Except for having to redirect the output.
<tsume_> Kosai: someone gave me the idea to wrap wget
<tsume_> Kosai: redirecting is no big deal;
<tsume_> Kosai: if you wish to add an easier user functionality.. you can simply make a very small patch
<tsume_> I'm sure it would take only about 20 to 50 lines ;) maybe less
<tsume_> Kosai: curl is well maintained, wget is not.
<tsume_> libcurl is great, though I didn't know about curl until libwww died :)
<tsume_> which was a long time ago.
<Kosai> is wget actively abandoned?  'cause, well, tar(1) isn't well-maintained either.  :)
<tsume_> Kosai: don't fix software which is fine already ;)
<tsume_> wget is flawed in all ways, the guy doesn't keep the HTTP client part of the program secure
<tsume_> s/all/many/
<tsume_> it tells me he doesn't know what hes doing.
<tsume_> neither does the Dickey fellow, ncurses is a mess.
<tsume_> it was very disturbing the changes made between 5.2 and 5.4
* jnc mutters...    !start a holy war: curl vs. wget
<zul> night
<bluefoxicy> my allocator is almost done, it's 488 lines so far
<bluefoxicy> i'll probably log a thousand
<bluefoxicy> if that
<fabbione> morning
<fabbione> elmo: thanks for the NEW and sync love :)
<Lathiat> has the fontconfig problem been fixed?
<daniels> yes
<fabbione> elmo: can you please give me a sparc pulse if you can? thanks
<Lathiat> cool
<fabbione> hey daniels
<daniels> hey fabbione, sup?
<fabbione> daniels: packaging the rh cluster suite
<fabbione> daniels: nothing extremely exciting :)
<elmo>  fabbione done
<daniels> fabbione: WHOOHOO
<fabbione> elmo: thanks a lot
<daniels> 3
<Lathiat> 6
<mdz-lca> daniels: LOOK UP
<daniels> mdz-lca: I AM
<daniels> i even made ludicrous hand gestures in your direction
<fabbione> hey mdz-lca 
<jsgotangco> hmm nice ubuntu review on linuxjournal
<fabbione> jsgotangco: url?
<jsgotangco> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8253
<jsgotangco>  <quote>"I anticipate that Ubuntu will become the mainstream Linux distribution globally. As the saying goes, though, only time will tell. However, if you do your due diligence on the company, the sponsor, the spirit of innovation and success of the Ubuntu people, you probably will come to the same conclusion."
<jsgotangco> "Ubuntu's sponsor, Canonical Ltd., has the necessary funding and a history of succeeding quickly and efficiently."
<HrdwrBoB> haha history
<jsgotangco> history doh...
<jsgotangco> can't equate Thawte success with Ubuntu
<mdz-lca> fabbione: hey
<fabbione> mdz-lca:  rhcluster_0.20050419-0ubuntu1_i386.deb <- the real take over :P
<fabbione> mdz-lca: how is going on the other side of the world?
<dieman> yikes
<mdz-lca> fabbione: what is rhcluster?
<mdz-lca> fabbione: it's ok; I'm a bit light-headed from being upside down
<fabbione> mdz-lca: http://sources.redhat.com/cluster/
<fabbione> mdz-lca: ehhee
<dieman> now you just have to include gfs somewhere :)
<fabbione> mdz-lca: is it difficult to walk on the bare hands?
<dieman> oh, does that include gfs stuff? :)
<fabbione> dieman: it's already in the kernel
<dieman> (looking at the website)
<dieman> rock
<fabbione> dieman: yes
<dieman> now there 0 excuses to run redhat. :)
<dieman> are, rather.
<fabbione> dieman: they applied happily a few patches i did send back
<dieman> rock.
<fabbione> now they started to be more silence to my patches...
<dieman> (redhat is not evil, but its fun to poke fun.)
<fabbione> probably they realized how crappy is some of their stuff :)
<dieman> well.
<dieman> uh.
<dieman> gfs came from down the hall.
<dieman> so like, when you get a ton of grad students in a room, in a basement...
<fabbione> or they don't like that i post them as @ubuntu.com :P
<dieman> allthough, i guess gfs has been rewritten a bit since it was housed in our building :)
<dieman> or so im told
<fabbione> dieman: ehehe
<dieman> it *is* funny that they came back to a decent license full circle
<cartman> lamont: had a chance to look  at https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/show_bug.cgi?id=9892 ?
<fabbione> cartman: make sense...
<cartman> fabbione: yup, unless you compile rtc support as non-module
<fabbione> cartman: nah.. we can fix that :)
<dieman> at least the i915 stuff seems to work with its rtc now
<cartman> yeah I know just change S<foo> level :)
<dieman> i think
<dieman> warty didn't like them.
<cartman> is there an ubuntu amd64 channel?
<fabbione> breezy is going to rock very hard
<dieman> i'm pretty sure hoary was happy with it.
<dieman> I need to setup fai for hoary now that its out
<dieman> and im uh, deploying it sort of.
<cartman> breezy is something like a biiiig step :)
<dieman> (i've been dist-upgrading machines)
<dieman> only 35 ubuntu machines so far.
<dieman> 267 woody machines, but 109 of those are lab machines, those will get converted this summer.
<dieman> anyhow, this is probally better fodder for the users channel.
<cartman> uhm using a 40-pin ide cable for my hard disk is not a good idea it seems
<cartman> now that I saw http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-kernel%40vger.kernel.org/msg72852.html
<cartman> :)
<dieman> heh
<dieman> i've seen that happen with scsi
<cartman> dieman: well mobo box had one ide cable and I have 3 ide devices
<dieman> when someone crimps a LVD cable inside a case
<dieman> heh
<cartman> LVD cable?
<cartman> whats that
<dieman> took me *45* minutes to convince the dell guy to send me a new one
<cartman> haha :)
<dieman> scsi, 50 pin HD I think.
<dieman> much more metal than a ide cable
<dieman> you can shake the things and they recoil a little like springs.
<cartman> well tech guy say come and we will give you one more cable :)
<dieman> he made me read off every bios entry
<cartman> dieman: lol
<dieman> thank god we have warranty parts direct now, we just order them online :)
<dieman> thats the incident that made me sign work up for it
<fabbione> elmo: are you still around?
<cartman> brb checking mobo manual
<cartman> hum 80-conductor ide cable means 80-pin?
<fabbione> yeps
<fabbione> no
<cartman> errr
<fabbione> 40 pins with 80 cables
<fabbione> it's the weirdness about ide :)
<cartman> yeah because it says 40-1 pin primary ide
<cartman> and 80-conductor
<cartman> Sata is way easier :)
<cartman> and way expensive
<cartman> http://www.pcconnection.com/ProductDetail?sku=196894&SourceID=k22350
<dieman> whowa, xen is going to be part of the kernel?
<cartman> seems to be that
<cartman> dieman: yeah
<dieman> cartman: i finally broke down and bought a sata controller
<dieman> and i acquired a drive.
<cartman> dieman: Sata drivers are not cheap :/
<dieman> i'm pretty happy with the drive
<dieman> so far
<cartman> well you should be :)
<dieman> more disk space just means more to back up
* infinity wonders in what part of the world SATA is expensive...
<infinity> My drive was 5 dollars cheaper than the PATA equivalent, sometimes I've seen a 10 dollar premium, but I've never noticed a huge disparity.
<thom> sata was far cheaper for me
<dieman> "Pratt said the Xen team is working with InfiniBand vendors to ensure that InfiniBand channels can be extended into guest operating systems running over Xen in an efficient yet fully protected manner."
<dieman> that is *creepy*
<dieman> wait for the virtual inifiband channels, too.
<dieman> (or just guessing)
<cartman> well ide drives are far more cheaper than sata
* dieman just spent $190 on theatre tickets, so no more tech spending for a while.
<elmo> fabbione: ?
<fabbione> elmo: i think there is something wrong with the Packages generation. for some reasons on sparc/breezy diff isn't there....
<fabbione> elmo: but there is the binary for it...
<sivang> Morning folks!
<sivang> Hmm, a sleepy sunday morning I guess
<cartman> its wednesday
* infinity -> home.
<sivang> cartman: hrm, need to sync my time server..
<cartman> sivang: yeah ;)
<fabbione> hey pitti
<pitti> Hi guys
<\sh> hey ogra
<ogra> \sh, have you read heise today ???
<ogra> :-D
<\sh> hp laptop with ubuntu?
* ogra thinks he will have a big party today.... the HP news are unbeliveable
<\sh> check my linux.blogweb.de I was writing it yesterday :)
<ogra> \sh, i cant, the line is to slow....
<\sh> but give me a hint where i can find grubconf...I accepted a bug, and the package is not there
<\sh> ogra: but it's nice
<ogra> gah, that crap should get dropped...
<\sh> ok...then its dropped ;) it's not in the package tree I searched everything
<\sh> i will write this
<\sh> ogra: and the katholic chearch has a new pope ;)
<ogra> yep, i heard it.... but it doesnt even come near the HP news :)
<dholbach> hey
<ogra> hey
<\sh> ogra: hehe...well, the pope is a german guy...but u r right, ubuntu on hp (smiling at my laptop here ;)) is a nice news :)
<Diablo-D3> hey all
<Diablo-D3> I'm trying to get a straight answer out of someone
<Diablo-D3> does breezy work?
<fabbione> Diablo-D3: it is highly unstable atm
<thom> if you need to ask, you don't want to run it
<fabbione> if you love your system to work, stay on hoary
<Diablo-D3> I'm not on hoary to begin with, fabbione 
<Diablo-D3> I'm on debian sid
<Diablo-D3> and I want to convert to ubuntu
<Burgundavia> breezy is mostly debian sid right now, with a few hoary patches rolled in
<fabbione> Diablo-D3: than switch to hoary
<Diablo-D3> ahh, so to breezy it is
<Diablo-D3> er, or not?
<cartman> Burgundavia: whoa sid will switch to gcc 4.0 too?
<fabbione> Diablo-D3: stay with hoary
<cartman> Diablo-D3: install hoary
<fabbione> breezy development started a week or so ago
<fabbione> and it is too immature if you need a usable system
<Diablo-D3> hoary it is
<Burgundavia> I would saty with hoary, as development is just beginning
<Kamion> cartman: not yet; it certainly will eventually
<cartman> Kamion: I see so breezy > sid ;)
<Diablo-D3> now lets see how fubar I can make my machine
<cartman> Diablo-D3: hoary is pretty stable
<Diablo-D3> cartman: stable is boring =(
<cartman> yeah install breezy then :P
<Diablo-D3> mwhah
<cartman> joys of finding new bugs ;)
<Diablo-D3> I'll try hoary first
<Diablo-D3> then upgrade from there
<Diablo-D3> I just don't know what to do with all my kde apps
<Diablo-D3> like, where does kubuntu stand in all of this?
<Kamion> cartman: varies
<Kamion> cartman: nothing is simple in this world
<ogra> mdz, ping
<cartman> Kamion: true
<Kamion> we have not yet synced everything from sid
<cartman> Kamion: but g++ abi transition is a big gain for me
<Diablo-D3> hrm
* Diablo-D3 has been reading http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/11/2335221&from=rss
<Diablo-D3> yes yes, its slashdot, but I wonder if ubuntu is the death of debian
<HrdwrBoB> no
<HrdwrBoB> ubuntu is the life of debian
<HrdwrBoB> actually.. given the results of the recent DPL election
<Diablo-D3> well, almost everyone I know is switching to ubuntu
<HrdwrBoB> you might be right
<ogra> Diablo-D3, if anything is the death of debian its debian itself....
<Diablo-D3> ogra: touche
<HrdwrBoB> yeah
<Kamion> cartman: ... which we haven't done yet
<Diablo-D3> now only if ubuntu can be the death of all other distros
* Diablo-D3 hates rpm-based distros
<cartman> Kamion: yes and I am not sure if sid will
<Kamion> please folks, #ubuntu-devel is not a "bash debian" channel
<Kamion> cartman: it will in time
<Diablo-D3> is ubuntu picking up gcc4?
<cartman> Kamion: well unless time <= 6 months its not better for me
<pitti> breezy is compiled with gcc4
<cartman> but not g++4 yet :/
<Diablo-D3> hrm
<Diablo-D3> about my earlier question, where does kubuntu stand in the whole switching to ubuntu thing?
<Diablo-D3> I mean, is it an addon, or a seperate distro?
<Burgundavia> kubuntu is kde + ubuntu
<cartman> Diablo-D3: Ubuntu+KDE-Gnome == Kubuntu
<Burgundavia> not a true deriv
<Diablo-D3> cartman: so I can't have kde and gnome installed at the same time?
<cartman> you can
<Kamion> Diablo-D3: sounds like a #ubuntu or #kubuntu thing :)
<Diablo-D3> I just add ubuntu and kubuntu sources then?
<cartman> yeah go ask Riddell ;)
<Diablo-D3> Kamion: #ubuntu is hell
<Diablo-D3> its worse than #debian or #gentoo
<maswan> Diablo-D3: bringing it all in here will make this hell though.
<Diablo-D3> I had to leave because it was taking my dialup out
<Kamion> Diablo-D3: I'm trying to keep this channel in a condition where I can actually read all the scrollback
<Diablo-D3> Kamion: hah
<Diablo-D3> Kamion: yeah, slow channels rock ;)
<Kamion> that means asking people to take support stuff elsewhere; sorry and all that
<Diablo-D3> I am sad, though, to leave debian
<Diablo-D3> this is what I've been running for the past 5 years
<dholbach> so who of you will be in sydney at what day?
<Kamion> Diablo-D3: you can do both. :-)
<Kamion> (I do ...)
<Diablo-D3> yeah, but if what I'm being told is true, debian is dead
<Diablo-D3> everyone is jumping ship for ubuntu
<Kamion> I beg to differ, but this is not the place
<ogra> Diablo-D3, if debian is really dead, where does ubuntu come from ?
<dholbach> it's not a question for #ubuntu-devel
<pitti> please move this elsewhere...
<ogra> yeah, thats rather #ubuntu-offtopic
<Diablo-D3> where else is there?
<Kamion> and I think you'll find that MOTU work would rise rather totally insanely if Debian stopped existing; we are not even a little bit ready for that.
<ogra> yp
<ogra> yep even
<dholbach> see you later
<pitti> Diablo-D3: #ubuntu ?
<Diablo-D3> mwhaha
* Diablo-D3 founds #ubuntu2
<\sh> well, in the end: ian is jealous that's the reason why he wrote this article. end of story
<Robot101> sigh
<Diablo-D3> meh screw it
<Diablo-D3> we need a small #ubuntu related channel, though
<Diablo-D3> one that isnt uberbusy like #ubuntu
<Diablo-D3> but one where #ubuntu-devel regulars hang out
<Robot101> #ubuntu-chat ?
<Robot101> #ubuntu-users
<\sh> #ubuntu-pr0n
* Diablo-D3 shrugs
<\sh> ;)
<\sh> if you want to have a good support, ask your actual irc-supporter, if it's ok to have a query with him..
<\sh> or :) lets change to something really nice...jabber-multiuser-chat :)
<Diablo-D3> I hate jabber
<Diablo-D3> jesus holy christ
<Diablo-D3> Need to get 267MB of archives.
<Robot101> all *still* off topic
<Diablo-D3> and thats _not_ including half a billion held back packages
<\sh> Robot101: no :) I need to make a remark, that the jabberd2 package is horrible to maintain if you have more then 1 session manager...I want to change it
<Robot101> (bah)
<Diablo-D3> Robot101: wrong button?
<Robot101> garbage collecting irssi query windows, pressed up once instead of twice, giving me /window close instead of /window 22
<Robot101> anyway, off topic. :P
<Kamion> Diablo-D3: no, I'm not interested in joining a channel designed to facilitate noise, thanks ...
<Diablo-D3> Kamion: so all ubuntu discussion is noise?
<Kamion> you're asking for #ubuntu-devel people to join a channel that's not about Ubuntu development, but only works when Ubuntu developers are there
<Kamion> this seems a bit ambitious
<Diablo-D3> well, I'm not sure what else to do
* Mithrandir wonders what he managed to break with the pkg-config upload
<Diablo-D3> and I'm hoping this doesn't manage to explode
* Diablo-D3 is upgrading libc6
<Diablo-D3> small question
<Diablo-D3> what gcc does hoary use?
<elmo> fabbione: still here?  diff is the switch to diffutils probably
<elmo> I removed the diff source recently and it took out the binary for some non-release arches
<Treenaks> Diablo-D3: 3.3.5 I think
<Kamion> Diablo-D3:        gcc |  4:3.3.5-1 |    hoary/main | amd64, i386, powerpc
<fabbione> elmo: yes i am here
<Diablo-D3> cool
<fabbione> elmo: ok so i can replace diff with diffutils in breezy.build script?
<fabbione> elmo: that's how i noticed :)
<fabbione> elmo: even if the chroot is still not bootstrappable on sparc.. it complains about gcc-3.3
<Kamion> fabbione: erm; you mean the debootstrap script? no, the binary is still diff
<fabbione> Kamion: ah ok
<elmo> fabbione: only source changed
<Kamion> I'll update debootstrap now
<fabbione> roger :)
<Kamion> (for gcc)
<Kamion> eek, this is totally broken
<Kamion> fabbione: it looks like you just haven't built diffutils, to me
<fabbione> Kamion: hmmmmmm
<fabbione> i will look into that
<fabbione> thanks
<Kamion> perl-modules                          | perl                            | ntp                                   | Brendan O'Dea <bod@debian.org>                                            |         2178044 |           10716
<Kamion> somebody want to stop ntp depending on perl-modules, or decide what else we should put in base? perl and perl-modules shouldn't be in base
<Mithrandir> why does ntp depend on perl-modules?
<Kamion> +  * Depend on perl-modules (for ntptrace). Closes:#276672.
<Mithrandir> getopt
<Kamion> we could just switch to ntp-simple
<Mithrandir> I think we could just demote it to a recommends
<Kamion> Mithrandir: we'll take ntp out of base; will do that later
<Mithrandir> mhm
<astharot> ciao
<GheRivero> res
<fabbione> hmmmm
<fabbione> diffutils is still marked as universe for sparc... that explains why
<stazz> Should I file a bugreport if I'm requesting for a feature?
<fabbione> stazz: yes, enanchement
<stazz> fabbione: to bugzilla or somewhere else?
<fabbione> stazz: on what package?
<stazz> fabbione: regarding the installer
<fabbione> stazz: bugzilla
* fabbione goes in the kitchen..
<stazz> might there be some guidelines on how to write a proper bug?
<ogra> mdz, ping
* thom rearranges fabio's 'h'
<thom> fabbione: enhancement ;-)
<\sh> we need a "todo journal list" on the wiki or launchpad ;)
<cartel_> guys im gonna be testing nomachine enterprise on ubuntu soon
<cartel_> ubuntu/kubuntu
<cartel_> live fire environment
<cartel_> its going in to one of our clients
<Burgundavia> cartel_, is that GPL or OSI-compat?
<cartel_> this is the commercial product
<cartel_> im using the freenx now
<cartel_> :)
<cartel_> on kubuntu
<cartel_> but, we want to deploy nomachine enterprise
<cartel_> so far i have seen issues with multiple sessions 
<cartel_> is ubuntu not tested for multiple logins?
<Burgundavia> I assume so
<Burgundavia> if you see a bug, file it
<Treenaks> cartel_: issues? like what?
<cartel_> thats the idea
<cartel_> Treenaks: deadlocks
<Treenaks> cartel_: weird
<Treenaks> cartel_: afaik multiseat works.. so multi-login using XDMCP should work as well
<cartel_> Treenaks: essentially from sshing in and running startx
<cartel_> nomachine of course
<Treenaks> what is nomachine?
<cartel_> www.nomachine.com
<cartel_> s/nomachine/nx
<Treenaks> uh... so what's wrong with LTSP?
<cartel_> it doesnt work over internet links
<Treenaks> cartel_: yes it does
<cartel_> ok
<Treenaks> cartel_: if you know how ;)
<cartel_> i have done ltsp deployments man
<cartel_> it sux for kde
<Treenaks> yes, but KDE sucks anyway
<cartel_> no it dont :)
<Treenaks> </holy war>
<cartel_> youve never used nomachine
<Treenaks> cartel_: true
<cartel_> hehe
<cartel_> its heaven
<cartel_> i use it at work, its so rich
<cartel_> seamlessly stream mp3s from work hehe
<cartel_> anyway when i see a bug ill file it i guess
<Treenaks> cartel_: I don't like non-free software, and avoid it whenever possible, sorry
<fabbione> thom: ehhehehehe
<ogra> ciao
<zyga> hello
<zyga> eh I'm getting constant problems with eject 
<zyga> putting a broken cd into the drive makes it impossible to eject it without root access
<Burgundavia> I noticed that as well
<zyga> and eject barfs about wrong arguments
<Treenaks> zyga: pressing the button will not work?
<zyga> nautilus show 'no cd in drive' icon
<Burgundavia> haven't seen that
<zyga> Treenaks: no
<zyga> Treenaks: the drive is locked
<Treenaks> don't break your CDs then :P
<zyga> Treenaks: I guess something (whatever mounts them, gnome-volume-manager or sth) breaks sometime later after locking the drive
<zyga> Treenaks: gnome-cd-burner broke them :P
<zyga> Treenaks: my dad created a dozen CD
<Burgundavia> this has happened to me with commericial cds as well
<zyga> almost none of them work :-/
<zyga> I don't blame the program yet
<Burgundavia> i do
<zyga> but each time it showed 'success'
<zyga> it should have shown 'error' I guess
<zyga> anyway there are still few issues pending 
<Burgundavia> if the program reports succes when it didn't do it correctly, that would be a bug
<zyga> like no /dev/cdrom (pitti will fix that later)
<Burgundavia> however, even if it do that correctly, but your system is breaking on it, that would also be a bug
<zyga> Burgundavia: I agree
<zyga> especially that user cannot eject anything without root access
<zyga> I've made eject suid on my dad's box but that was scary
<zyga> kernel barfs about deprecated SCSI api 
<zyga> (why the hell eject is doing scsi on /dev/hdc i don't know)
<zyga> I've checked eject sources and they seem old
<zyga> like ... ready for your brand new 2.2 kernel
<zyga> (my dad has his box mainly to listen and burn music and it's been avery dissapointing experience)
<fabbione> zyga: are you using ide-scsi?
<zyga> fabbione: no
<zyga> fabbione: or... I don't know (w8
<zyga> fabbione: does ubuntu use ide-scsi?
<zyga> (my dad's box is a fresh hoary install)
<zyga> fabbione: no ide-scsi in lsmod
<fabbione> zyga: eject works fine here (as user) on /dev/hdc
<fabbione> and it doesn't use SCSI
<fabbione> or is that a scsi device?
<fabbione> and the system believes it is /dev/hdc?
<zyga> fabbione: no it's a regular cd-rw+dvd combo
<zyga> fabbione: after brief reading of eject's source code I can only say
<zyga> fabbione: that it tries everything it can
<zyga> fabbione: so after eject-cd fails (and the error message is shown: wrong argument)
<zyga> fabbione: eject tries eject-scsi-cd
<zyga> and that works if ivoked by super-user
<fabbione> zyga: is your father account the only one on that machine?
<fabbione> or did you install with your and created your daddy account?
<zyga> fabbione: no there are few others
<zyga> fabbione: he's got all relevant permissions
<fabbione> zyga: can i see /etc/groups ?
<zyga> fabbione: sure
<fabbione> please either put it on the web
<fabbione> or pastebin
<fabbione> zyga: what was not clear between put it on the web or pastebin?
<fabbione> zyga: STOP!
<fabbione> i don't want it in private message!
<zyga> (sorry for flodding ;)
<zyga> fabbione: ejecting as the first created user fails as well BTW
<zyga> fabbione: I saw that after I pasted it, sorry
<zyga> I can still put in on the web if you'd like
<fabbione> yes becasue it got lost
<fabbione> i don't keep history
<zyga> I'm sorry, wait a second please
<zyga> http://www.suxx.pl/pierdoly/group
<fabbione> who was the first created user?
<zyga> zyga
<fabbione> zyga: ls -las /dev/hdc
<zyga> 0 brw-rw----  1 root cdrom 22, 0 2005-04-20 13:04 /dev/hdc
<fabbione> is that the cdrom right?
<zyga> yes it is
<fabbione> did you logout and login after changing all these group things?
<zyga> fabbione: yes they were changed long time ago
<fabbione> hmmmm
<jbailey> elmo: Please sync cdbs 0.4.28-1 from Debian it has all the Ubuntu changes now.
<Burgundavia> fabbione, I can provide a probably more useful report. I have been having a similar issue, where the only way to eject a cd was with the eject command. These, however, were commercial cds
<zyga> fabbione: I plan to do some more tests with fprintf rigged eject
<Burgundavia> fabbione, and this is a default install of hoary final
* fabbione is still thinking
<fabbione> Burgundavia: there was no code change in the cdrom stuff for ages
<fabbione> we would have noticed this problem way earlier
<fabbione> also because note that when you install hoary from cdrom
<fabbione> at phase 1 the cdrom is ejected automatically
<Burgundavia> fabbione, only about 1 in 5-10 cds that I noticed it
<zyga> fabbione: please note that this happens on somewhat broken cd
<fabbione> HMMMMMM
<zyga> fabbione: (not the drive)
<zyga> fabbione: (the disks)
<Burgundavia> I have also experienced instablity on gnome-cd, but I cannot remeber whether or not they are connected
<fabbione> yes i get that
<zyga> Burgundavia: do you have /dev/cdrom ?
<Burgundavia> s/on/with
<fabbione> zyga: stick in a cdrom
<zyga> fabbione: broken or working one?
<fabbione> before an eject, try to lsof | grep cdrom
<Burgundavia> fabbione, check
<fabbione> broken
<fabbione> if the working one is working.. i can't really use the info :)
<Burgundavia> fabbione, I will do some more testing in the next few days and file a bug report about it
<zyga> fabbione: please note: these are audio cds
<fabbione> Burgundavia: what you need to check if one of the various HAL/hotplug/whatever userland tool keeps a lock or an open file on the cdrom
<fabbione> zyga: the kernel doesn't really care of what kind of cd's they are
<Burgundavia> fabbione, I suspect that it is the instablity in gnome-cd
<Burgundavia> sometimes it crashes ont he last track (all commercial cds)
<Burgundavia> and that is what probably locks it
<fabbione> if the disk is NOT good, generally the kernel spends time attempting to reread the info
<fabbione> and that is NORMAL
<fabbione> but userland shouldn't lock it
<zyga> fabbione: okay
<fabbione> if the lock is in the kernel, than i know what to look for
<zyga> fabbione: broken cd that appears to be blank cd (it's not)
<fabbione> but i have bad disks too
<zyga> fabbione: trying to mount it yeilds nothing
<fabbione> and i can still ejec them as user
<zyga> fabbione: ejecting fails with 'wrong argument'
<fabbione> tho i don't use gnome-cd
<zyga> fabbione: lsof | grep cdrom is empty
<zyga> fabbione: lsof | grep hdc shows nautilus
<fabbione> zyga: try lsof |grep hdc
<fabbione> zyga: kill that nautilus session?
<fabbione> and see if it ejects?
<zyga> fabbione: ok
<zyga> fabbione: yeap, it ejects allright
<zyga> fabbione: I'll try again with different cd
<fabbione> ok file a bug on nautilus :)
<zyga> fabbione: one that is being interpreted as not blank
<fabbione> there are no kernel bugs.. only borken hardware and userland
<Treenaks> fabbione: could it be a GTK bug?
<fabbione> Treenaks: with nautilus? YES!
<fabbione> :P
<Treenaks> :P
<XandriX> jdub, u there ?
<Amaranth> jdub is on his honeymoon or something, the slacker
<fabbione> Amaranth: LCA
<Amaranth> that's even worse :P
<fabbione> no no
<fabbione> he is having his honeymoon at LCA :)
<Amaranth> hey, i'm not lagging so bad now, it didn't take 4 minutes for use to say those two lines to each other
<Amaranth> s/use/us/
<zyga> fabbione: should I file a bug for ubuntu or directly on gnome?
<fabbione> Amaranth: with all respect, this does not mean we will ever have an intimate dinner with candle light
<fabbione> zyga: start with ubuntu please.
<Amaranth> fabbione: That sounds so wrong.
<fabbione> Amaranth: do you really want to have a dinner (with candel light) with me????
<zyga> fabbione: thanks
<fabbione> are you insane? :P
<fabbione> zyga: no problem
<Amaranth> fabbione: Err, where did that come from?
* Amaranth beats his cable company with a lagging stick
<fabbione> zyga: please also attach the log of this irc conversation before i will have to push back the bug to nautilus
<fabbione> <Amaranth> hey, i'm not lagging so bad now, it didn't take 4 minutes for us to say those two lines to each other
<fabbione> Amaranth: and my reply was:
<fabbione> <fabbione> Amaranth: with all respect, this does not mean we will ever have an
<fabbione>            intimate dinner with candle light
<fabbione> meaning that even if we write together.. we are not going to have dinner together :)
* Amaranth backs away slowly
* mpt grabs his saxophone
* fabbione goes for a nap
<fabbione> later
<simira> hmm
<simira> anyone knows if Mithrandir went to sleep?
<zyga> done, #9954
<zyga> okay lame question: how to save backlog in irssi? 
<Kosai> zyga: Read the manual for /lastlog.
<zul> hey
<zyga> Kosai: many thanks :-)
<lesshaste> is it correct that there is no standard net install for ubuntu?
<daniels> no.
<lesshaste> hmm... could you point me to some docs pleasE?
<lesshaste> they are completely ignorant of this at #ubuntu :)
<lesshaste> "<Fab_> lesshaste: well, it seems that ubuntu doesnt provide a netinstall :( id like one too"
<Burgundavia> I just looked on th wiki, didn't see one in a quick search
<Burgundavia> you may want to dig deeper
<lesshaste> I didn't see on either. daniels suggests there is one.. hoping he/she will reply :)
<Burgundavia> he
<lesshaste> s/on/one
<jbailey> elmo: Please sync aspell-sl
<lesshaste> so no one knows about ubuntu net install?
<lesshaste> by that I mean whether it exists or not :)
<azeem> ask on the lists?
<lesshaste> ok... shame to IRC :)
<aj> jbailey: are you at lca, or coming to UDU?
<jbailey> aj: Coming to UDU.  I'm still in Toronto.
<jbailey> aj: I leave in about 30 hours.
<aj> jbailey: cool, we can catch up monday/tuesday hopefully :)
<jbailey> aj: That sounds lovely!
<cartman> jbailey: hmm no glibc upload today?
<jbailey> cartman: Today's not over. =)
<jbailey> (Today has barely begun from this timezone)
* cartman adds Toronto to his timezones
<jbailey> cartman: Canada/Eastern.
<cartman> can't find Canada lol :)
<jbailey> cartman: Second largest couple in the world or so?  =)
<jbailey> country.
<cartman> kde clock applet needs some lovin'
<cartman> guess I found a new way to seduce myself
<jbailey> elmo: Please sync autofs
<dholbach> hey
<cartman> btw will binutils 2.16 will be imported after UDU?
<KayJ> hi
<KayJ> i need gparted as qtparted doesnt want to resize my ext3 partition
<KayJ> is gparted included in gnoppix?
<dholbach> i can only talk for ubuntu
<KayJ> is it included on the ubuntu livecd then?
<dholbach> and unfortunately gparted is not in main, so it won't be on the CD nor on the DVD
<KayJ> damn
<lamont> hrm... FTBFS with gcc-4.0... guess those should probably go against debian, eh?
<dholbach> good night everyone
<lamont> mdz: you around?
<ogra> http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8253
<fabbione> ogra: hey
<fabbione> ogra: is doko there?
<ogra> fabbione, already in bed i think... he left 1/2h ago....
<fabbione> ah ok
<fabbione> tell him that gcc-4 sucks
<ogra> fabbione, shall i tell him details ?
<ogra> :)
<fabbione> sure..
<jbailey> ogra: Sure.  Tell him it sucks alot ;)
<fabbione> "more than a porn star"
<zul> lol
<ogra> whoo
<ogra> thats much
<d3vic3> lol 
<fabbione> no
<jbailey> The upgrade is as hairy as Ron Jeremy?
<fabbione> it's the hoover of the pornostars
<ogra> geez
<d3vic3> ahahahahaha 
<fabbione> Ron Jeremy.. sounds familiar....
<fabbione> isn't that actor that is like tall 3 feet and half?
<fabbione> or around there :)
<jbailey> And long.
<ogra> heh
<jbailey> And knows as 'the hedgehog'
<fabbione> yeah well.. him
<fabbione> jbailey: ahah yeah!
<fabbione> i remember him..
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> he might be hoary nowadays....
<SlackShrike> hi
<SlackShrike> I would like to know as it is the process of creation of live-CD of the Ubuntu.  I would like to make one live equal to that vocs they make.  How it is this process?  Where I find documentation?
<Burgundavia> don't know off hand, but the wiki has the info I believe
<SlackShrike> It does not have nothing esplicando the process of creation in the WIKI
<Burgundavia> read the -devel mail archives
<Burgundavia> somebody mentioned it recently
<SlackShrike> thanks
<SlackShrike> i will see
<ups> SlackShrike, there is a page on live cd in the wiki
<ups> SlackShrike, http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LiveCDCustomizationHowTo
<tsume_> ups: is there a SetupCDCustomisationHowto?
<ups> tsume_, don't know
<amanpreet> How can i set my language as a default language while making live CD based on ubuntu.
<amanpreet> can somebody pls help me??
<SlackShrike> ups:  this link teaches to personalize live.  I want To create an equal o ubuntu-live
<SlackShrike> I did not find nothing that taught to create the o live hoary
<amanpreet> SlackShrike, can you pls paste the same link again for me?
<ups> SlackShrike, sorry i dont know anything about o live :/
<SlackShrike> ups: ok, thanks
<SlackShrike> amanpreet : I don't understand
<SlackShrike> amanpreet: this http://www.ubuntulinux.org/wiki/LiveCDCustomizationHowTo ?
<amanpreet> SlackShrike, thats what i want, thanks a lot
<SlackShrike> Thanks
<metallikop> fabbione: ping
<fabbione> pong
<metallikop> Do you have any docs out there for Ubuntu Sparc?
<Burgundavia> fabbione, is mpt in the #canonical channel?
<zyga> why did ubuntu-calendar-april disspear from breezy?
<metallikop> zyga: was wondering the same thing too
<fabbione> metallikop: nope... what kind of documentation are you looking for?
<fabbione> Burgundavia: dude.. /whois mpt
<fabbione> Burgundavia: it's not like i keep track of who enters/exits channels all the time :)
<metallikop> some sort of howto, tftp, net booting, etc.
<zyga> dissapear even :>
<Burgundavia> fabbione, matthew thomas. launchpad usablity guy
<Burgundavia> fabbione, I just do see him here or in #launchpad
<fabbione> Burgundavia: yes.. i know who he is.. a /whois mpt will tell you if he is connected and where
<metallikop> have you talked to schweeb at all about his problems he had with the sparc build?
<Burgundavia> fabbione, thanks
<fabbione> metallikop: yes we did talk a bit about it.
<fabbione> metallikop: there are several reasons why you can get that error
<fabbione> metallikop: and only a combination of tests can reveal exaclty what it is
<metallikop> I figured as much
<fabbione> metallikop: like changing silo/kernel combinations
<metallikop> I'm going to attempt to install it on a Blade 100 today.
<fabbione> metallikop: good luck :)
<metallikop> I'm sure I'll need it
<fabbione> metallikop: generally the same doc as for debian should do
<metallikop> K.
<fabbione> metallikop: ubuntu is not that different in that respect on sparc
<metallikop> indeed.
<fabbione> i know the installer works fine here
<fabbione> so once you can manage to boot.. you are done
<fabbione> i can't test X here.. so the autoconfiguration might not work
<metallikop> what are you running on?
<fabbione> netra t1
<fabbione> headless
<fabbione> brb
<Kamion> Burgundavia: it's very late in NZ - I doubt he's still awake
<GheRivero> res
<Burgundavia> Kamion, hmm, his website just went down
<jbailey> elmo: Please sync analog
<jbailey> food, pickup tickets from travel agent, etc. time.  bbiab.
<SavvyPlayer> Does anyone know offhand how epiphany finds and loads libgtkembedmoz.so?
<SavvyPlayer> I am having problems launching epiphany and yelp
<Burgundavia> prolly looks on the lib path
<SavvyPlayer> I exported an LD_LIBRARY_PATH var with /usr/lib/mozilla
<SavvyPlayer> the /usr/lib/mozilla/TestGtkEmbed app runs fine
<Kamion> plugins are generally loaded by explicit path rather than LD_LIBRARY_PATH; you'd have to recompile to move them
<SavvyPlayer> without LD_LIBRARY_PATH, I get this:
<SavvyPlayer> epiphany: error while loading shared libraries: libgtkembedmoz.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
<SavvyPlayer> is there a standard way to debug something like this?
<Kamion> oh, it must just do dlopen("libgtkembedmoz.so") with no absolute path
<Kamion> LD_LIBRARY_PATH wouldn't be checked otherwise ...
<SavvyPlayer> all of the packages came from the hoary repository, although I do sometimes sync up with sid and breezy
<tritium> So the CC meeting never got rescheduled?
<Kamion> the entire CC is at a conference right now; kinda tricky
* Mithrandir moos
<trulux> tseng: there?
<ska-fan> Are the cds from shipit.u.c shipping yet?
<Burgundavia> ska-fan, you will be informed when yours are ready to ship
<Burgundavia> please stop bugging the devs
<cartman> my warty cds never arrived :)
<Burgundavia> did they cost you anything?
<cartman> nah eventually I got broadband
<wasabi_> Heh. I'd pay for the cd's if given a chance. ;)
<ska-fan> The website should make clear then that the cds maybe don't ship at all.
<spo0nman> .join #linux-india
<spo0nman> sorry.
<abelli> ciao
<eddyp> how can I submit a bug against ubuntu?
<zul> bugzilla.ubuntulinux.org
<eddyp> k, thanks
<orangehaw> anyone in here (fabbione?) who could provide me with the 2.6.12 rc2 kernel so i could test my soundcard (Intel Corp. 82801FB/FBM/FR/FW/FRW (ICH6 Family) High Definition Audio Controller) on Ubuntu hoary. I'm on 2.6.10-5-696-smp now and would like to get sound working ;)
<orangehaw> 2.6.10-5-686-smp of course, not 2.6.10-5-696-smp LOL
<Treenaks> orangehaw: isn't the kernel in breezy?
<orangehaw> i haven't looked into that yet
<orangehaw> i'll have a look
<zul> Treenaks: its still 2.6.10
<Treenaks> zul: isn't a newer kernel available?
<orangehaw> what is expected in breezy
<zul> not yet
<zul> 2.6.12ish
<zul> orangehaw: if you send an email to zulcss@gmail.com i can throw one up for you
<orangehaw> thanks man
<zul> with the version you need
<orangehaw> will do
<orangehaw> in a minute
<zul> i send you a link to it tomorrow probably
<orangehaw> zul: you've got mail
<zul> i do? :)
<anna> Anybody can point me to details about the HP contract for Ubuntu?
<\sh> for this u have to ask hp or canonical i think
<anna> I thought I do exactly that, asking Canonical people here
<anna> And congrats on it btw :)
<\sh> i don't think so, that many canonical people are this channel :) no sales people ;)
<anna> Developers are the real sales people, try sell Linux if it's not good :p
<anna> Anyway, you have taken my hope away
<anna> Now I have to live in despair and never get to know more :)
<anna> Bye
<Kosai> anna: Have you seen http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/news/58780 ?
<anna> yes, i did, but I want to see the source press release
<jcole> i'm hacking the ubuntu install cd so it's smaller... but, when i remove some .deb files from the cd i get the error "this is not an ubuntu cd"... any suggestions?
<\sh> anna: i couldn't get any information from the hp homepage....
<robertj_> hehe, I had just come to ask if anyone knew why Ubuntu would not be preinstalled by HP but would come on a CD and FreeDOS would be installed by default ;)
<Kamion> jcole: sounds like you lost the .disk directory on the CD by mistake
<jcole> Kamion: .disk file? do i have to rebuild this file or something?
<ogra> mornin
<Kamion> jcole: the original CD has a .disk directory (not file); it sounds like you forgot to copy it to your new image
<Kamion> you don't need to rebuild it
<jcole> Kamion: oh ok, mkisofs must have excluded it
<jcole> Kamion: thanks, i'll try again
<mxpxpod> will there be an announcement when breezy is ready to start testing?
<tseng> it is ready
<tseng> if you are a massochist
<schweeb> breezy is open already, you can upgrade and test at will
<tseng> or just hate evolution.
* schweeb hates evolution
<schweeb> but I haven't yet upgraded to breezy :)
<zyga> btw when will libgda2-common, gcj and ndiswrapper-utils be updateable?
<seb128> tseng, that's a troll other people package time or what ?
<eddyp> why the hell do I need an account to submit a bug ?!?!?!?
<\sh> schweeb: use kmail ;)
<tseng> seb128: uh, breezy has broken evo
<tseng> seb128: mom broke it.
<tseng> seb128: it was a joke
<seb128> tseng, very funny :p
<tseng> yep :P
<eddyp> i don't fucking want an account 
<tseng> chill out dude.
<tseng> you need an account for every bugzilla
<zyga> eddyp: shouting will not help
<tseng> fact of life
<mxpxpod> thom: ping
<zyga> eddyp: in space no-one can hear your scream ;-)
<zyga> or so they say
<eddyp> I know, but this registering stuff is making me nuts
<eddyp> why don't u guys use BTS? is it not available?
<bob2> you mean debbugs?
<zyga> eddyp: windows user say the same thing
<tseng> we're working on a new system similar to BTS
<tseng> it will use the same account as the ubuntu wiki
<bob2> bugzilla has better project management stuff, sorry
<eddyp> debian bts I mean
<bob2> yes, that's called debbugs.
<eddyp> so can I send a mail or something instead of registering?
<tseng> i think reportbug will eventually work with it
<eddyp> bob2: oh, ok, didn't knew that
<eddyp> tseng: that would be of no use
<eddyp> in my case
<eddyp> the live cd didn't boot, so, no reportbug
<eddyp> that is my problem
<eddyp> the bug I wanted to report
<tseng> just an observation, but youve been complaining about this for several minutes
<tseng> it takes less than a minute to register
<eddyp> tseng: i HATE registering in order to help _others_ ..... well also myself, but is doable without
<eddyp> :)
<bob2> sorry, this is how bugzilla works
<bob2> yes, it's annoying, but whinging will not make it magically get fixed
<eddyp> :))
<eddyp> bob2: so, will it be some kind of gateway to bugzilla?
<eddyp> or a new different sistem
<eddyp> ?
#ubuntu-devel 2006-04-24
<mdke> Riddell, poke. privmsg?
<Riddell> ok
<dholbach> see you guys
<ispiked> hi, I'm looking for how to find information on the new, graphical debian installer.
<neuralis> ispiked: debian doesn't have one; you mean ubuntu. the installer is called espresso. what information are you looking for?
<ispiked> neuralis: I thought expresso was for livecds, not just a regular old install.
<neuralis> ispiked: espresso runs on the livecd, but is used for setting up a regular old installation.
<neuralis> ispiked: in other words, if the livecd runs and you can start espresso, you don't need an installation cd.
<ispiked> neuralis: so expresso is probably what I used to install 5.10?
<neuralis> ispiked: no. 5.10 has the textual/curses installer (d-i).
<ispiked> neuralis: ok... how can one install dapper?
<neuralis> ispiked: unless that's what you meant by "graphical" debian installer, but that's been around for a while now.
<LaserJock> ispiked: you can install dapper from either the Dapper livecd or install cd
<ispiked> neuralis: that is not what I meant.
<neuralis> ispiked: see laserjock's message about installing dapper.
<ispiked> I know that one can use expresso with the livecd, but what can they use with the install cd?
<neuralis> ispiked: it's e*s*presso, not the 's'.
<ispiked> neuralis: ok.
<neuralis> ispiked: the install cd still comes with the same textual/curses installer as before (d-i).
<ispiked> neuralis: are there plans to integrate espresso with the install cd?
<ispiked> neuralis: making it succeed d-i?
<LaserJock> no
<neuralis> ispiked: well, there are plans to not ship the install cd via shipit.
<neuralis> ispiked: thus making the install cd unnecessary for those for whom the livecd runs fine, which indirectly means that espresso will be succeeding d-i.
<ispiked> personally, I'd like a graphical installer without having to load a livecd.
<ispiked> but I guess I'll have to get my fix with other distros.
<Burgundavia> ispiked: the live cd installer is actually the fastest installer I have ever used
<ispiked> Burgundavia: yeah, but you have to take into account load time for the livecd.
<Burgundavia> ispiked: that includes that
<Burgundavia> ubuntu is also the fastest live cd I have tried
<neuralis> ispiked: if an extra 1-2 minutes wait to get to an installation process that takes 15-20 minutes is enough impetus for you to move to a different distribution... well.
<ispiked> neuralis: I was just joking.
<neuralis> ispiked: good. i never know these days; prolonged exposure to gentoo can play tricks on people's heads. ;)
<zul> gentoo rots your brain
<jadaz87> hello i was wondering if someone could help me with the dapper live cd customization since this is the devel channel
<jadaz87> anyone? lol
<jadaz87> i whould not want to try the breezy live cd customization wiki on the dapper live cd lol
<LaserJock>  jadaz87: have you tried the wiki page?
<jadaz87> 	i whould not want to try the breezy live cd customization wiki on the dapper live cd lol
<jadaz87> there is not a dapper live cd customization wiki page :-(
<LaserJock> try it, just substituting dapper for breezy
<LaserJock> I think some people have had luck with it, others have had problems
<LaserJock> but I'm not much help
<jadaz87> do you know anyone is particular who whould be able to help me?
<LaserJock> not really
<LaserJock> you might try to find people who have done custom cds
<jadaz87> i really want to talk to the livecd devel crew but i do not know if that is possible
<LaserJock> I'm not sure who all is involved, but I think they are probably asleep now
<jadaz87> yeah oh well :-(
<jadaz87> LaserJock is there a list of places where every "ubuntu" phrase / logo on the livecd and installcd is kept?
<LaserJock> yikes, I don't know but I would imagine not.
<jadaz87> like the icon on the app car is in  /usr/share/icon/hires/48x48/developer-icon.png or something
<jadaz87> oh ok :-\
<jadaz87> bar*
<Chipzz> jadaz87: what's with the lol? lol ;)
<jadaz87> Chipzz i want to know
<jadaz87> if there is a list of all the places ubuntu the phrase and anything pertaining to the term ubuntu whther artowrk icons is
<jadaz87> so i can change them
<Chipzz> nevermind, you missed the pun :P
<jadaz87> oh ok
<jadaz87> well Goodnight Ubuntu Devel
<Chipzz> neuralis: ispiked was actually asking a very valid question; but the graphical installer is a feature planned for etch iirc, not ready in time for dapper
<ispiked> Chipzz: yeah. I was just confused about livecd installer vs. graphical installer. I initially thought this new installer for dapper was something similar to anaconda.
<Burgundavia> ispiked: nope, although there is effort underway to do a graphical front end to d-i, with gtk
<ispiked> Burgundavia: is there a bug on launchpad for it?
<Burgundavia> ispiked: for what, a graphical installer? the work for that is ongoing, and not suitable for dapper
<ispiked> Burgundavia: yep. 
<Burgundavia> ispiked: for espresso, the live cd installer, file bugs as you find them
<ispiked> Burgundavia: you misunderstood me.
<ispiked> Burgundavia: Is there a bug to track the new debian-installer gtk front-end on launchpad?
<Burgundavia> nope
<ispiked> Burgundavia: the future stuff.
<ispiked> Burgundavia: ok.
<Burgundavia> that work is being done exclusively within debian, afaik
<ispiked> Burgundavia: so it's that "underway"? hehe.
<ispiked> Burgundavia: ok.
<Burgundavia> ubuntu made the policy decision to create a livecd installer back in montreal last year
<Burgundavia> tbh, I really don't see the point on an anaconda style installer
<ispiked> Burgundavia: yeah?
<Burgundavia> the live cd installer is far more useful for those who are trying ubuntu and the regular installer is great for those who know what they are doing
<ispiked> Burgundavia: yeah, I was thinking along similar lines.
<fabbione> morning guys
<ajmitch> hi
<Chipzz> Burgundavia: yeah, but a graphical version of the regular installer would be nice polish ;)
<Burgundavia> Chipzz: but if only the server guys are seeing it, who cares?
<Chipzz> will there be no regular install cd's for ubuntu then, only live-cd's?
<infinity> There will be ISOs, but we don't intend to ship the CDs pre-pressed, if espresso works out.
<Burgundavia> they will be there, just hidden
<infinity> Since 99% of the people we send shipit discs to should be satisfied by the combo livecd/espresso, and we get to ship 1 CD instead of 2.
<Burgundavia> if you just download ubuntu, you will get the livecd
<Chipzz> that's what I thought (only /shipping/ live-cd's)
<Chipzz> remind me again, espresso doesn't use debootstrap, right?
<infinity> Nope.
<infinity> It copies the installed system from the livefs.
<infinity> (Of course, the livefs was created with debootstrap, but that's not really what you were asking)
<Chipzz> I don't know why, but this somehow feels wrong to me
<fabbione> Chipzz: it's just a different way to install. It works just fine
<Chipzz> I guess I just have more confidence in debootstrap than copying a live cd
<fabbione> Chipzz: it's not much different from when you tar your system up and untar it somewhere like on a new disk
<infinity> In some ways, it's actually more reliable, in that we're essential copying a system image, so we know exactly how it will turn out.
<Chipzz> fabbione: and I don't have much confidence in that either ;)
<Chipzz> (I use cpio for one, if I ever do that, but that's a detail I guess :P)
<fabbione> Chipzz: same story.. it's the concept that matters.. not the tool
<Chipzz> if I reinstall an existing installation, I use debootstrap; dpkg --get-selections ; chroot dpkg --set-selections ; apt-get dselect-upgrade
<Chipzz> anyway... how does espresso look wrt oem installs?
<infinity> It's not meant for OEM installs at all.  You want the regular install CD for that.
<Chipzz> uhu...
<lifeless> I'm curious, why it was chosen to copy the livefs
<lifeless> not suggesting its wrong, just curious
<fabbione> lifeless: because a livefs is just a debootstrap of the ubuntu-desktop with more stuff
<fabbione> and you don't need to carry around all the .debs
<lifeless> makes sense
<lifeless> and you can then uninstall unneeded packages
<Chipzz> sth totally different... what's the reasoning for splitting up the kernel in smaller udeb's, but having just linux-image and linux-restricted modules as debs?
<fabbione> Chipzz: udebs are used for the installer only.
<fabbione> it makes some boot media quite small
<Chipzz> I know that
<Chipzz> but the linux-image size is getting grosser and grosser each day
<Chipzz> and I guess will not be decreasing
<janimo> infinity: can you spin a new xubuntu live?
<Chipzz> take into account that you also need twice the space the actual unpacked deb takes (for temporary files I guess)...
<daq4th> .oO(dependencies are overrated)
<infinity> janimo: Yeahp.  Can do.
<Chipzz> fabbione: what I was asking is, why is a similar split /not/ done for the kernel debs?
<janimo> infinity: cool, thanks
<fabbione> Chipzz: it's pointless on the kernel deb. once you rebuild the Depends: list you will pull in again everything
<fabbione> Chipzz: + the fact that not having all the kernel installed will limit machine usage a lot
<fabbione> like hotpluggable devices
<Chipzz> fabbione: not if you have a lot of meta-packages like we have for linux-image and linux-resistricted-moules atm
<fabbione> Chipzz: and what's the point of splitting if you are going to reassemble it on the target system anyway?
<Chipzz> you're starting from the assumption that you are going to install them all again here, which may not be the case?
<fabbione> as it stands now is the case
<fabbione> and not installing all of it has sense only in case of embedded devices
<fabbione> on normal machine you want all of it
<fabbione> generally speaking at least
<Chipzz> there's lots of stuff I do not want as a matter of fact
<Chipzz> what I may want is drivers for hotpluggable devices; but 95% of the chipset drivers, alternative fs drivers, lvm and evms (which also pull in daemons which I cannot uninstall or disable!), possibly wireless chipset drivers for desktops, ...
<Chipzz> those I do not want/need
<fabbione> those are what a lot of other people wants
<fabbione> and there is a chain of depends in the kernel that you must respect
<fabbione> do you want scsi?
<Chipzz> that's a tricky one ;) *g*
<Chipzz> I want the generic scsi driver, yes
<fabbione> why?
<lifeless> I want evms !
<fabbione> i need lvm
<Chipzz> fabbione: sata, usb devices, firewire devices, ...
<lifeless> I want evms to boot again actually ;)
<fabbione> Chipzz: so you see.. break that depends and it is a mess
<fabbione> somebody that doesn't know that
<fabbione> will uninstall scsi (WTH I DON'T NEED SCSI BECAUSE I AM A 31337 SATA USER)
<fabbione> and things will go south
<Chipzz> fabbione: now *that* is what dependencies are for ;)
<lifeless> Chipzz: how big is your flash drive ?
<Chipzz> fabbione: but take lrm for example... maybe I only need the nvidia stuff, and it also pulls in a lot of wireless drivers including firmware, firmware which is duplicated in every lrm deb
<Chipzz> alternatively, I may also want one of these wireless drivers, and it pulls in nvidia-kernel-common
<fabbione> Chipzz: you really don't gain much other that saving very little space
<fabbione> and add a lot of headacke in maintaing the kernel
<Chipzz> very little? I beg to very much differ
<crimsun> I think Chipzz should offer to rewrite the maintainer scripts.
<Chipzz> Package: linux-image-2.6.15-19-686
<lifeless> Chipzz: I asked, how big is the flash drive you are booting from ?
<Chipzz> Installed-Size: 60632
<Chipzz> lifeless: I'm not booting from a flashdrive
<Chipzz> fabbione: I would hardly call 60MB for a single kernel image "a little"
<lifeless> then the smallest disk if you have a 3 year old machine is what - 20Gb in size
<lifeless> 60Mb -> 0.25% of your disk space.
<Chipzz> linux-restricted-modules-2.6.15-19-686 is another 20MB of space
<Chipzz> lifeless: people having linux-image installed doing dist-upgrades pull in a new image every other couple of weeks, without the old images getting uninstalled automagically
<fabbione> Chipzz: wrong.. 
<Chipzz> lifeless: and the issue is not about hard-disks, it's about your / or /boot partition
<lifeless> Chipzz: they get uninstalled automatically. 
<Chipzz> not when doing apt-get dist-upgrade
<fabbione> Chipzz: only abi bumps are not deinstalled
<Chipzz> maybe with aptitude they do, dunnow
<fabbione> for very good reasons
<lifeless> aptitude and synaptic both do
<fabbione> anyway till now i didn't see a single good reason for splitting the kernel.
<fabbione> other than seeking for troubles
<Chipzz> I have boxes which need cleaning up, having 5 kernels installed
<fabbione> Chipzz: if you have these issues don't use a development branch. stay with stable.
<Chipzz> and my first ubuntu install had a rather small /, which I ran into trouble with every time upgrading my kernel
<infinity> I don't think the "I run a development release and keep all my kernels" use case is a prticularly interesting one.
<zyga> good morning
<infinity> I'd expect that people who run development releases know how to remove packages.
<Chipzz> infinity: I do ;)
<Chipzz> but sometimes I'm lazy, or, I just want to keep an old kernel to be safe if the new one doesn't work
<fabbione> so stop being lazy
<Chipzz> I prolly should ;)
<Chipzz> but you can't deny the kernel is rather fat (and keeps growing)
<Chipzz> but let me give another example
<Chipzz> xorg is split up in different servers (largely for reasons of upstream splitting it up I guess)
<Chipzz> so why do we pull in more and more external modules in the kernel?
<jdub> "Ubuntu, which has only been in distribution since 1994, is now cited as the most popular of all the distributions."
<jdub> http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1950205,00.asp
<jdub> awesome
<Chipzz> heh, 1994? :)
<ajmitch> jdub: where wsa it hiding all those years?
<fabbione> hey jdong 
<robitaille> no wonder Warty worked so well after 10 years of testing :)
<fabbione> bah
<fabbione> STOP MIXING NICKS
<fabbione> jdub: 
<jdub> hi fabbione :-)
<fabbione> jdub: do you want fridge material?
<jdub> fabbione: fire away!
<Chipzz> I come from debian, where I used to build kernels myself with make-kpkg, but last I tried this broke for the ipw module on ubuntu
<Chipzz> (due to firmware not being included)
<fabbione> Chipzz: ok this is going offtopic now. 
<fabbione> jdub: http://www.stdlib.net/~colmmacc/category/niagara/
<jdub> fabbione: WHOA
<Chipzz> fabbione: ok it is; but the question basically is, up till what point can you allow the kernel package to grow? 150MB? 200MB?
* ajmitch will have to start bloggin about his niagara experiences soon
<ajmitch> as soon as I get access to them.. 
<zyga> fabbione: how did you get your hands on the T2K?
<fabbione> Chipzz: we have already bigger packages in the archive that you sinstall and just don't know
<fabbione> zyga: part of their developer program
<fabbione> ajmitch: it's about time :)
<ajmitch> fabbione: tell me about it - ITS at uni aren't the fastest of people
<jdub> fabbione: 'heavy metal on speed' ;-)
<fabbione> jdong: ehhe
<fabbione> oh crack
<zyga> fabbione: I envy you ;)
<fabbione> jdong: please change nickname
<fabbione> jdub: ehehe
<fabbione> zyga: i didn't get it for free or forever.. i will have to return it and i had to do a lot of work on it..
<zyga> I fully understand that
<Chipzz> fabbione: not many ;) only one I can think of is OOo, which is the first thing I purge after an install anyway ;)
<ajmitch> fabbione: we're going to be committing to running linux on these, most likely modifying ubuntu 
<ajmitch> so I'll get to spend plenty of time with it, and won't have to return them :)
<highvoltage> OMG, so it's true. Ubuntu *is* older than Debian!!!
<neuralis> jdub: i've had a post stuck in the sounder moderation queue for a while. could you please let that through?
<fabbione> ajmitch: can i at least get a pic of them?
<ajmitch> fabbione: if I can get access to the server room, sure :)
<fabbione> ehe
<bluefoxicy> hey guys
<bluefoxicy> check out libgtk2.0-common in dapper will you
<bluefoxicy> it's a 2800 byte download
<bluefoxicy> it installs damn fast, creates 3 80 byte files
<bluefoxicy> synaptic seems to think it's 12.8 megs installed.
<crimsun> huH?
<infinity> Installed-Size: 12280
<infinity> Cute.
<crimsun> at least /usr/share/themes/Emacs/gtk-2.0-key/gtkrc isn't 80 bytes
<bluefoxicy> okay so it's 3.5K there
<bluefoxicy> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 82 2006-04-10 11:51 /usr/share/themes/Default/gtk-2.0-key/gtkrc
<bluefoxicy> infinity:  synaptic definitely says 12.6MB here.
<bluefoxicy> well
<bluefoxicy> I guess it's a bug then.
<infinity> Well, yes, I was pointing out that apt claims 12.280 MB here.  (Installed-Size is in k)
<bluefoxicy> ah
<bluefoxicy> I was trying to figure out how much it would cost to do a LiveCD with an X environment used as a graphical boot, instead of usplash
<bluefoxicy> and figured I wanted GTK+ and ZEnity, because I want some scriptability
<bluefoxicy> and was like
<bluefoxicy> "..... 26 megs?  wtf?"
<bluefoxicy> (libx11-6 + kdrive + gtk + zenity)
<bluefoxicy> so i guess... well, hey, I could compress this stuff onto a squashfs and the initrd would mount it and pivot_root in, that would give me it in 2MB if I assume libgtk2.0-common is like.. a few bytes :P
<pitti> Good morning
<Mithrandir> hi pitti 
<bluefoxicy> hi pitti :)
* bluefoxicy sighs, 2am
<bluefoxicy> I will have to continue this later
<bluefoxicy> but at least I know it's not unreasonable :)
<janimo> infinity, wgetting the xubuntu livecd. thanks
* bluefoxicy is trying to design his own LiveCD infrastructure, something to fill a few deficiencies... i.e. persistent root, persistent home, rapid development, easy reauthoring
<pitti> hey Mithrandir, hi bluefoxicy 
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: you're aware that the live cd already does persistence?
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir: for its root?
<Mithrandir> yes
<bluefoxicy> how?
<pitti> what's the current status of the CDs? Shall the current images be scrutinized, or is another update planned soon?
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LiveCDPersistence
<Mithrandir> pitti: ubuntu cds are ready to be tested.
<pitti> Mithrandir: cool, then I'll do the full range again right after I finished my firefox stuff on breezy
<Mithrandir> thanks
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  interesting.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  I was thinking more locating removable devices and using find on them to locate control files and root images :)
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: the live is going to be more modular for dapper+1, at least that's the plan.
<Mithrandir> so making a version with langpacks will be a lot easier.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  what I'm aiming at is a core "Bootstrap" that is just the CD; "Boot Modules" that are automatically created by handing it a packaged .deb of a kernel image and whatever modules (-restricted-modules etc) and add kernels to the boot menu...
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: you need a full chroot to build the initramfs though, not just the kernel .deb
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  a "Base Module" (think Morphix) that's the first level root; "Extension Modules" that get loaded on top of it and have information inside them explaining what other EMs they depend on; and "Bootstrap Modules" in 3 phases that modify the bootstrapping process :)
<nomed> bluefoxicy: unionfs should let you doing that easly
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  this can't be created on the fly?
<bluefoxicy> nomed:  of course.
<pitti> wow, that works fine, they managed to not break the ABI :)
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  initramfs == initrd
<bluefoxicy> ?
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: yes.
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: well, modern kernels use initramfs-es which are mostly like old initrds except where they aren't.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  nod, not a problem.  That can easily be scripted.
<bluefoxicy> the stuff is pretty generic.
<bluefoxicy> the only thing different between 2 initrd files should probably be the actual modules in them; the scripts, /lib, and /bin should be more or less equivalent ne?
<bluefoxicy> besides that, create a chroot using (was it?) jail, build, destroy chroot.
<bluefoxicy> the only things I'm actually worried about right now are syncing up dpkg databases
<bluefoxicy> I need a way to take one file system, compare it with another, and snapshot the list of changes made to the dpkg database.  If it was based on bdb or sqlite that would be pretty much a little bit of SQL and then executing some SQL to update everything consistently after stacking an EM; but with a flat file, I need to do a bit more work :)
<nomed> bluefoxicy: what i do is to split the status files in pkge.status
<nomed> and then i merge all of them while booting up the cd
<nomed> depending on the module you selected ..
<nomed> i didn't find anything better then that 
<bluefoxicy> nomed:  I designed this whole thing in like 5 minutes in my head and have just been fleshing it out; my mastering process was "debbootstrap a base module, write to a squashfs; unionfs mount a blank directory over it, drop into a chroot() shell, run commands, exit, make squashfs of blank directory; continue as such"
<nomed> anyway bluefoxicy having let's say modules as morphix may cause problems ...
<nomed> you'll notice the boot will slow down
<bluefoxicy> yes
<bluefoxicy> it has to iterate through modules and unionfs mount them
<bluefoxicy> I am aware.
<bluefoxicy> also stacking too many causes slowdowns at runtime
<bluefoxicy> I was hoping for something where building a livecd involves just slapping together a few basic modules (base, X11, GTK, Qt, KDE, GNOME, XFCE, applications) and mix and matching them (base, X11, GTK, GNOME; base, X11, Qt, KDE; base, X11, GTK, XFCE)
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: your ideas resemble mine a bit.  Probably not an exact match, but we're thinking about going there in the future.
<bluefoxicy> it'd be possible to dependency-weaken the image at build time, especially if there's no Phase 0 Bootstrap Module; all modules will be loaded so slap them all into one big one at creation time
<nomed> Mithrandir: this is what i did some months ago
<nomed> http://www.dsslive.org/mediawiki/index.php/About
<nomed> i would port that stuff to casper too ... 
<bluefoxicy> aside from that, building dependency trees (X11 needs base, GTK needs X11, GNOME needs GTK, XFCE needs GTK, you have an XFCE/GNOME LiveCD) and reducing as possible (GTK+X11+base, GNOME, XFCE) would help too
<bluefoxicy> all of which is automatable :)
<nomed> anyway .. i was here to ask if anyone can explain how gconf is used by espresso.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  you wanna talk later?
<Mithrandir> nomed: it looks a lot like casper, yes.
<nomed> i sent already a patch to Kamion , as espresso it was checking just gnome-screensaver .. and xubuntu uses xscreensaver
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: sure
<nomed> Mithrandir: yep .. i left it after dapper
<nomed> now i would integrate casper .. as it's really similar
<nomed> at that time breezy was using d-i
<nomed> Mithrandir: anyway on old machines having modules may cause problems .. from what i tested
* Chipzz wonders... a trimmed down live cd, without OOo and language packs for example, + files needed for a network install, would that fit on a businesscard cd?
<Mithrandir> nomed: why?
<Mithrandir> Chipzz: you'd probably get ubuntu-minimal onto a business-card cd.  Not much more.
<Chipzz> Mithrandir: wouldn't cutting OOo and the language packs go a long way?
<Chipzz> or am I mistaken?
<nomed> Mithrandir: i guess it's because the cd drive has to read files all over the cd
<Mithrandir> Chipzz: a business card cd is about 50MB.  The live fs is currently at ~500MB.  You need to shave off a bit more than just OOo and langpacks.
<Chipzz> Mithrandir: oh, I thought business-card was more like 200MB or 300MB
<Chipzz> BartPE has a business-card image ;)
<Mithrandir> Chipzz: I don't know if you can get businesscard DVD-Rs. That'd help a fair bit.
<Mithrandir> Riddell: kubuntu dailies up, I'll do live too in a bit.
<Chipzz> ah k, googling for business card cd turns up only rectangular cd's... I guess I was thinking about sth else :)
<Chipzz> nm :)
<nomed> Kamion: ping
<nomed> shouldn't  "sudo debconf-show espresso | grep grub-installer/bootdev " shows a device ?
<nomed> i can't install grub with espresso
<nomed> db_get grub-installer/bootdev --> bootdev=$RET --> $bootdev is an empty var
<nomed> that's in grub-installer
<Mithrandir> Riddell: kdm's postinst segfaults on hppa.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  Done :)
<Mithrandir> Riddell: also, live done.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  busy?
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: moderately.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  later then.  :)
* bluefoxicy needs sleep anyway, it's 3AM
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: see you around
<carlos> Riddell: hi, Is ok for you that I file bugs for all problems I find with KDE translations?
<carlos> Riddell: that way we will be sure we don't forget anyone of them
<jmg> hi Riddell
<jmg> ubuntu xen 3.0.2 packages -> deb http://debian.thoughtcrime.co.nz/ubuntu/ dapper main xen
<neuralis> jmg: awesome!
<jmg> neuralis: please stand by
<jmg> neuralis: confirmed working :)
<jmg> neuralis: vote for me: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/kernel-package/+bug/40088
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40088 in kernel-package "[PATCH]  Support i386 Xen subarch" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
<neuralis> jmg: arch.d.o seems to be refusing http connections, so i can't take a look at how invasive the changes are, but it might be too late to apply them to the dapper kernel package(s)
<Mithrandir> ogra_ibook: rolling edubuntu cds now.
<neuralis> jmg: have you been in touch with the kernel team about this?
<neuralis> jmg: ah, i just noticed the patch on librarian. that doesn't look too bad.
<jmg> neuralis: i tried to, fabianne had a bit of a fit
<jmg> neuralis: diff between his and manoj's is 80,000 lines
<jmg> neuralis: and noone had time to do the backport so... lucky me
<neuralis> jmg: the backport looks relatively uninvasive.
<jmg> neuralis: thanks
<neuralis> jmg: sure. i'll advocate for inclusion, i think this is very important to have.
<jmg> neuralis: it may be too late to sneak into dapper
<jmg> neuralis: but its a strong starting point for dapper+1
<jmg> neuralis: should i post to the ml about it?
<neuralis> jmg: hang tight, i'll talk to fabio and we'll see what we can do.
<mdz> good morning
<mvo> good morning
<simira> what is all this good morning stuff about?
<Mithrandir> hiya mdz
<pitti> mdz: Good morning, how's London?
<mdz> pitti: sunny!
<mdz> I'm syncing down the current daily now; how does it look so far?
<neuralis> BenC: ping
<mdz> neuralis: it's the middle of the night in BenC-land
<pitti> mdz: I can't believe that! :-P
<mdz> pitti: me either
* neuralis Wed Apr 19 03:34:18 EDT 2006
<pitti> mdz: so you are lucky today, a good sign
<mdz> pitti: and yesterday
<pitti> stunning
<Mithrandir> mdz: I haven't tried it yet, been busy spinning livefs-es and dailies for all of our derivatives (sans -server, since that needed some tweaks)
<seb128> what?
<jmg> neuralis: i will put up alpha kernel images tomorrow
<jmg> neuralis: when im at work and can use the a64
<jmg> neuralis: but im running on it now with xen-3.0-testing kernel from a few days before release
<fabbione> neuralis: i am here... if you use my nick i get highlights :)
<Mithrandir> ogra_ibook: edubuntu -live up.
<jmg> hi fabbione
<fabbione> hi
<jmg> did you have a chance to take a look at the (much better) bug i posted?
<jmg> diff is only 210 lines or so
<janimo> Mithrandir: with the xubuntu install wait a bit more till xubuntu-default-settings 0.6 gets built.thanks
<neuralis> fabbione: bug #40088 -- patch seems relatively trivial, i'd strongly support it going in
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40088 in kernel-package "[PATCH]  Support i386 Xen subarch" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40088
<janimo> unless you waited for me pinging anyway 
<fabbione> neuralis: looking...
<fabbione> jmg: no, we are releasing beta.. i have no time for wishlists
<jmg> fabbione: ok
<jmg> fabbione: i'll maintain it myself then
<Mithrandir> janimo: so the current xubuntu install cd is not a candidate?
<fabbione> jmg: you miss the point. i just said that i have no time to look at it right now.
<janimo> Mithrandir: well I had no feedback on it yet
<fabbione> jmg: please stop this thing of taking stuff personally each time. We are releasing beta tomororw and there are other things that needs higher priority
<janimo> but it can be a candidate of course, I have just been uploading polish for the livecd and it affects install as well
<janimo> icon theme and such
<neuralis> fabbione: that's the bug i mentioned, so if you're busy with the beta release, don't look at it now.
<neuralis> fabbione: this can wait until after beta, although i do think having it in dapper is worthwhile.
<Mithrandir> janimo: I'm keeping a sheet of notes here so I know which need to be rebuilt, etc.
<jmg> fabbione: ok, its not much use until the patch goes into kernel-package, i could cook up a test deb of kernel-package...
<Mithrandir> janimo: so if you have stuff you want on it, it's not a candidate.
<Mithrandir> hi Daniel
<jmg> fabbione: i'll do that, thanks
<janimo> Mithrandir: ok so it needs a rebuild after said package gets in the archive
<dholbach> hey Tollef!
<dholbach> good morning everybody!
<fabbione> neuralis: i do not disagree. i will look at it once we are done with beta.
<janimo> dholbach: hey
<nomed> janimo: here (xubuntu livecd) firefox fonts are really too small
<dholbach> hey janimo :-)
<neuralis> fabbione: great, thanks.
<janimo> nomed, I am dling the live myself
<mvo> hm, when I ran the live-cd it suggests english in espresso even when booting a german environment. but I guess this is known
<janimo> nomed what is the default font?
<dholbach> hey mvo!
<jmg> okay, in the meantime im going to work on a xen livecd derived from the beta lives
<mvo> hello dholbach
<janimo> nomed, I uploaded a setting to make tango default, I might as well change the default font
<janimo> nomed, also only firefox or UI too?
<Mithrandir> janimo: sure.
<janimo> nomed, testing today's livecd?
<nomed> ui too .. but firefox it's what seems to have more problems
<nomed> janimo: yes even espresso
<janimo> nomed, did it have icons on desktop, and espresso launchable?
<nomed> i sent already patches .. i would get a fb
<nomed> janimo: i dwlded it yesterday
<janimo> nomed, so not today's livecd
<Mithrandir> janimo: do you want live images too when x-d-s 0.6 gets in?
<nomed> janimo: no .. i can get it again
<nomed> but i guess espresso will be still the same
<mdz> where are the beta release notes being assembled?
<janimo> Mithrandir: if it';s not much work sure, otherwise later since I plan do do some livecd debugging today
<janimo> and I am dling current one
<Mithrandir> mdz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperBeta
<mdz> thanks
<janimo> Mithrandir: so probably a new live will be needed tonight or tomorrow so do not bother with one now, unless really easy to do :)
<Mithrandir> janimo: the live images are generally very rsyncable so you probably want to use rsync rather than wget once you've downloaded it once.
<janimo> Mithrandir: ah good idea thanks. are they more resyncanble than install?
<Mithrandir> janimo: I won't just build one to build one.  If you have something you wan tested, I can do it, but it's a waste of resources to build one just for the heck of it.
<Mithrandir> janimo: on the same level, give or take.
<mdz> mvo: are you editing DapperBeta still?
<janimo> Mithrandir: ok I'll ping you when a new build is needed then, thanks
<mvo> mdz: just finished
<mvo> mdz: it's yours now
<janimo> nomed, I'll start testing the livecd myself in about 2 hours.
<Mithrandir> ogra_ibook: and -install done and published.
<janimo> nomed, what font do we have by default that looks ugly?
<janimo> dholbach: what is the default UI font in ubuntu?
<janimo> I did not closely follow the dejav vs bistream discussion
<nomed> janimo: i really don't know checking ..
<janimo> nomed in the ui settings dialog
<dholbach> janimo: i'm not quite sure. you should ask doko or Diziet
<nomed> anyway the problem is not that they are ugly (generally a point of view :) ) they're too small 
<janimo> nomed, ok will figure it out using the livecd and upload a fix tonight
<janimo> Diziet: hi, which font is now used as default for gnome ui/firefox ?
<janimo> in xfce default install firefox has very small fonts
<janimo> nomed, it may be some xinitrc settings we are missing
<mdz> espresso and usplash fixes confirmed in the current build
<dholbach> mdz, Mithrandir: if you don't mind, I'll do the gnopernicus, gok and ubuntu-meta uploads in a bit.
<janimo> there was some dpi:100 vs dpi:75 issue a while back, it may be the same
<nomed> janimo: it looks like a dpi issue
<fabbione> crap
<mdz> dholbach: the sooner the better
<dholbach> mdz: working on it
<nomed> firefox has 96dpi .. switching to system default seems better
<mdz> dholbach: by the way, I now get a dialog when I press two keys at once. how do I stop that?
<mdz> I ran gok once
<janimo> nomed, so firefox has 96 by default and our x settings say 75?
<dholbach> mdz: do you have a11y enabled in gnome-at-properties?
<nomed> janimo: i don't knwo the xfce default .. it should be in xinitrc
<nomed> checking
<mdz> dholbach: definitely not
<mdz> oh, it says changes will not take effect until the next login though
<janimo> nomed, looks like 96 too
<mdz> so I may have turned it off during this session
<nomed> janimo: yep
<nomed> so i really don't know
<dholbach> mdz: hope that fixes it for you
<mdz> i386 test install in vmware looks good
<mdz> (espresso)
<janimo> nomed so regarding espresso is the grub thing the only bug?
<seb128> is there any round of upload possible or planned?
<dholbach> seb128: i'll do gnopernicus, gok and ubuntu-meta in soon
<mdz> infinity: can you tell me a bit about the initramfs-tools change?
<Mithrandir> dholbach: uh, why?
<mdz> seb128: yes, there will be at least one more build
<mdz> Mithrandir: a11y
<seb128> mdz: I was considering doing an upload of gnome-panel without the laptop profile hack
<Mithrandir> mdz: did they ftbfs last night?  infinity uploaded them 12-ish hours ago.
<mdz> Mithrandir: uploaded what?
<dholbach> Mithrandir: no, menu entry changes and a seed change
<seb128> mdz: the profile was to have battstat on laptop, but now that's only duplication with g-p-m
<mdz> seb128: laptop profile hack?
<seb128> yeah, we have a desktop and a laptop profile
<seb128> the laptop having battstat
<mdz> seb128: oh, I thought we had already dropped battstat in favour of g-p-m
<mdz> seb128: so yes, please get that in
<Mithrandir> mdz: gok and gnopernicus due to a soname change in brltty.
<nomed> janimo: and an issue with xscreensaver
<seb128> mdz: k, will do now
<mdz> Mithrandir: this is dropping them from the menu, and removing dasher
<dholbach> Mithrandir: no, that was gnopernicus only.
<mdz> Mithrandir: so applications->accessibility disappears by default
<Mithrandir> mdz: ah, ok.
<mvo> i386/espresso looks good here too (modulo the problem that you need to press enter when splash-down is compelte to actually reboot)
<mdz> mvo: why is that a problem?
<janimo> nomed, does the xscreensaver issue make espresso not work?
<mdz> mvo: the live CD has always worked that way...or are you not seeing the prompt?
<mvo> mdz: I don't see the prompt
<mdz> mvo: make sure you have the latest build; I fixed that last night
<mvo> mdz: I did a rsync this morning, let me check again
<nomed> janimo: not that but espresso checks if gnome-scrinsaver is running in that case it disables it
<nomed> there is a patch already in launchpad for that
<janimo> janimo, but if it does not run it's fine no?
<nomed> sent one h ago
<janimo> I mean it does not cause a breakage
<mdz> mvo: I just confirmed the fix with eac06b7357e678b79d43b59e4727eb30  cd/ubuntu/dapper-live-i386.iso
<nomed> janimo: and if xscrinsaver is runing ? :)
<nomed> janimo: if it checks that there is a reason for sure :)
<janimo> well, does it cause breakge or does it just kick in
<mdz> janimo: it just pokes it so that the screensaver doesn't activate
<janimo> well it can be annoying but not crash your install halway I guess?
<mdz> shouldn't be a functional problem
<janimo> halfway
<nomed> janimo: it didn't casuse breakage because xscrinsaver didn't start here
<janimo> nomed, one bug fixes the other :)
<Mithrandir> mdz: shouldn't we get espresso removed from the system tools menu too then?
<nomed> this is a patch i sent
<nomed> http://librarian.launchpad.net/2174817/00_xscreensaver
<mvo> mdz: I have the same image, let me re-test it
<janimo> nomed, gconf is ok on the livecd
<janimo> we have it in install to bc of gdm
<nomed> janimo: yep but i would figure out how it is used there
<nomed> as it returns False
<Mithrandir> mdz: I can reproduce the usplash bug with vmware here.
<janimo> nomed, at first glance looks ok
<janimo> the xscreensaver thing I mean
<mvo> Mithrandir: me too (just tried again), testing on real hardware next
* pitti tests live CD, brb
<dholbach> narf, gok ftbfs, but there's a patch in cvs
<dholbach> *trying*
<nomed> janimo: and it looks like gconf is fine as it is in xubuntu livecd
<janimo> nomed, right, but as I said we already have it in desktop too bc of gdm
<janimo> via gnome-keyring
<fabbione> mdz, Mithrandir: i have a sparc specific change for partman-lvm to install on lvm over raid. It would be nice to have for Beta and it doesn't affect other arches. Can i upload in the hope it can make it? otherwise it's just fine
<Mithrandir> fabbione: url to debdiff?
<nomed> janimo: yep .. but espresso sets some stuff .. i don't know for what and if it uses those confs later
<Mithrandir> mvo: now it worked for me and fell back to text mode.
<nomed> but it seems it doesn't
<nomed> not sure anyway
<janimo> nomed, for beta it would be enough if it just installed the system :)
<nomed> janimo: ehehe
<janimo> now booting it in qemu
<nomed> the only issue i found is the grub-install step
<janimo> so I don't have to quit
<fabbione> Mithrandir: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/debdiff
<janimo> right, do you have a bug filed on that too?
<Kamion> Mithrandir: why remove espresso from system tools?
<Kamion> yes, nomed has bugs filed
<janimo> cool
<Mithrandir> Kamion: it's the only item in that menu on the live cd.  Looks a bit lonely.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: it doesn't affect other arches, so if it propagates in time is good.. otherwise welk.. though luck
<Mithrandir> fabbione: looks ok to me.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: ok thanks
<nomed> Kamion: one question about #40100 in espresso ..
<janimo> nomed, did you have the install icon partly hidden beneath the panel?
<janimo> if not I guess more xfdesktop settings are needed 
<nomed> apt-install is not in $PATH just on xubuntu livecd ?
* fabbione heads for a shower while the world installs here
<nomed> janimo: i hadn't the install icon  :)
<Kamion> nomed: well that patch is certainly wrong ...
<Kamion> nomed: can you please file one bug per issue in future?
<nomed> Kamion: k
<janimo> nomed, I mean after turning desktop icons on
<Kamion> /usr/lib/espresso/compat should be in $PATH globally for espresso
<nomed> Kamion: i suposed it was wrong .. i was just debugin the grub-install issue
<Kamion> and I don't see anything that would remove it
<Kamion> nomed: oh, were you running that script by hand?
<nomed> at the end yes
<nomed> as espresso fails installing grub
<nomed> and i couldn't figure out the reason
<Kamion> nomed: then you need to set up PATH yourself; I won't accept that part of the patch
<nomed> Kamion: k
<nomed> janimo: no it was not hidden
<pitti_live> Kamion: just a side question, is it possible at all to eliminate this silly 'Retrieving files...' step in the installer?
<mvo> Mithrandir: the reboot-prompt works nicely for me in real hardware 
<Mithrandir> mvo: it has worked 2/3 times for me in vmware too
<Kamion> pitti_live: not as far as I know
<mdz> Mithrandir,mvo: gar
<Kamion> pitti_live: that's debootstrap or apt or something, not really the core installer doing that
<mdz> there could be a race there
<pitti_live> Kamion: ok, thanks
<mvo> Mithrandir: no luck for me here, tried it 4 times in vmware
<mdz> works fine for me in vmware
<Kamion> http://librarian.launchpad.net/2174823/00_grubinstaller_if_n_removabledevice.diff is nearly unreadable due to whitespace changes :(
<pitti_live> Kamion: so that archive-copier/nocopy=true (or sth. similar) trick won't work any more?
<Kamion> pitti_live: archive-copier is a completely different step, and is not run by default any more
<pitti_live> Mithrandir: current ppc/install is good
<nomed> Kamion: :/ i'm sorry .. anyway it just adds an if [ -n "$removabledevice" ] ; then before calling udevinfo
<mdz> Mithrandir,mvo: my guess would be that it's interrupting a syscall other than select(2) and so not breaking the event loop
<Kamion> nomed: yeah, I have a better patch here
<mdz> Mithrandir,mvo: unfortunately I don't think it's safe to call cleanup() from a signal handler
<Kamion> well, neater :) just if [ -z "$removabledevice ] ; then return; fi early on in is_removable
<Kamion> the general approach of your patch was ok, it was just a bit noisy
<janimo> nomed, what's the issue with apt-install for xubuntu?
<mvo> *meh* bad news, my second test on real-hw gave me no prompt :/ (the first did)
<mdz> we do have the option of dropping in the full splash-down changes I've prepared...they work for me...
<Kamion> janimo: there is none
<dholbach> mdz: the a11y menu is gone :)
<nomed> janimo: going to test it again .. it may be not an issue
<mdz> but falling back to text seemed much safer for beta
<nomed> yep
<pitti_live> seb128: hm, 'Dasher' is in both Accessibility and Accessories menus
<mdz> dholbach: thanks
<Kamion> janimo: he was running some code by hand outside the context of the stuff that sets up $PATH properly
<mdz> pitti_live: dasher is no longer in desktop
<seb128> pitti_live: dholbach is working on it
<pitti_live> cool
<janimo> ah ok
<Kamion> nomed: I believe the removabledevice thing is cosmetic and just introduces some noise into the log; is this true or false?
<mvo> mdz: where are your changes? I could give them a test-run 
<nomed> Kamion: yes 
<nomed> not critical for sure
<Keybuk> Kamion, Mithrandir, mdz: udev appears to be missing a Conflicts on ifrename; ok to upload a fix?
<Kamion> nomed: ok, good, I don't need to worry about it for beta then; thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: sure
<Keybuk> also acpi-support still calls ifrename, ok to fix that too?
<Mithrandir> mdz: I think we should just go with what we have and hope that works in the majority of cases.  I'll try on real hardware too and see if I can reproduce it there.
<seb128> grumpf, I still need to run dhclient by hand on my laptop with dapper :/
<seb128> (it was working fine with hoary)
<Mithrandir> dholbach: what's the eta of new gnopernicus and gok?
<dholbach> Mithrandir: all uploaded
<mdz> mvo: I'll get them uploaded
<mdz> to people.u.c
<Mithrandir> dholbach: thanks.
<dholbach> seb128: i have the same problem, it worked with network manager until ~0.6
<Mithrandir> dholbach: seeds updated too?
<seb128> n-m works fine
<dholbach> Mithrandir: yep, ubuntu-meta uploaded too
<seb128> that's just the default install
<seb128> I've no network on boot
<Keybuk> Kamion, Mithrandir, mdz: acpi-support still calls ifrename, ok to fix that too?
<seb128> so no language to the language selector, etc
<nomed> Kamion: what really looks bad is that grub-installer couldn't find the bootdev, i guess that was why it failed
<seb128> so an english desktop on my french install :/
<Kamion> nomed: file the bug that actually bit you then; run 'ESPRESSO_DEBUG=1 sudo espresso' (make sure to use a throwaway password, as it will appear in the log) and attach /var/log/installer/espresso to the bug
<Kamion> nomed: p.s. re #40095, filing a bug is sufficient to contact m
<Kamion> e
<mdz> hell, I just trashed one of my patches
<mdz> Keybuk: after beta, please
<Keybuk> ok
<Kamion> mdz: can/should I fix this xubuntu screensaver bug (#40095) pre-beta?
<Mithrandir> Ubugtu: bug 40095
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40095 in espresso "from poke_gnome_screensaver to turn_off_screensaver" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40095
<mdz> Kamion: if it's simple and safe; I don't consider it a blocker though
<Kamion> ok
<sivang> morning all
<pitti_live> hi sivang
<seb128> when are due new CD images now? (to know if I should give a try to current CD or wait for the update)
<Mithrandir> seb128: we need to wait for new gok, gnopernicus to get into the archive.  Feel free to test the rest of the desktop though.
<seb128> ok, let's try current iso for now 
* pitti_live wonders why purging some packages in espresso takes ages
<Kamion> pitti_live: the locales bug; we need your help on that
<Kamion> bug 34593
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 34593 in langpack-locales "removing the package regenerates the locales for ALL other languages" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/34593
<pitti_live> Kamion: ah, I see
<pitti_live> Kamion: thanks, will think about that
<pitti_live> anyway, booting into espresso-installed system, brb
<janimo> nomed, todays' livecd in qemu has nice firefox fonts
<janimo> and only icons on desktop has changed since yesterday 
<mdz> mvo: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/splash-down/
<mvo> mdz: is installing the debs there enough? or is there more that needs to be done?
<mdz> mvo: boot live CD, install debs, sudo cp /usr/share/casper/shutdown /etc/init.d/casper-shutdown
<Gloubiboulga> dholbach, seb128, I've filed a goffice bug with a patch for the gnome/gtk build, do I suscribe you to this bug?
<pitti> Mithrandir: amd64/live Tests/Short + espresso install good for me
<dholbach> Gloubiboulga: i suppose that desktop-bugs should be subscribed already, right?
<fabbione> guys please update https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current
<Gloubiboulga> dholbach, it should appear in the suscribers list? I don't see it
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: the patch with the common -dev lib right?
<seb128> mdz, Mithrandir: reuploading a gnome-panel right now if that's fine with you, laptop profile is useful for wireless applet too ... I've undo the previous changed and dropped battstat from the laptop profile instead
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: subscribe me too ;)
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, yes
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, done :)
<janimo> thanks
<Gloubiboulga> dholbach, I'll suscribe to ubuntu-desktop
<mdz> seb128: ok
<dholbach> Gloubiboulga: desktop-bugs
<mdz> seb128: go ahead
<dholbach> Gloubiboulga: i'll default subscribe desktop-bugs to it now
<dholbach> Gloubiboulga: thanks
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: am testing xubu live in qemu, now. icons on desktop is default and espresso launches
<janimo> next live will have tango by default too
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, great :)
<Gloubiboulga> I'll test the next one
<janimo> ok
<mvo> mdz: it works well here, I get a prompt from usplash to remove the disc and press enter
<mdz> mvo: yes, works for me too
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: I'll rsync that too, but first I want to see what with the xfprint error, so we don;t do too many live builds
<mdz> mvo: but it touches a lot for the day before beta
<seb128> mdz: done
<seb128> uploaded
<mvo> mdz: yes :/
<mdz> mvo: I'd appreciate some review of the patches
<mdz> Kamion: odd, the espresso icon is still "...Permanently"; I thought that change made it in time for the build
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, I can start xfprint4 from command line, but not from the menu on my installed xubuntu...
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: just saw that myself
<janimo> even on a 'normal' system
<janimo> looking into it
<pitti> oops, this kernel bug triggered very well...
<Kamion> mdz: no, you asked me to do the build before that
<Kamion> unless there was another one this morning
<mdz> Kamion: no worries, we'll do another one
<Mithrandir> ubuntu:         2006-04-18 2225
<Mithrandir> (livefs build)
<Mithrandir> so that was the one triggered by Colin last night
<mdz> Keybuk is testing a possible splash-down solution
<mdz> once we've made the final fix for that, we'll roll a new build
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: after editing it it works, even if I revert the changes.
<janimo> see if it works if you touch that file
* Keybuk shakes his first at brltty
<Keybuk> first you debconf me
<Keybuk> now you conffile-prompt me
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, I did, it still fails to start
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: ok, I am reinstalling xfprint and try reproducing it
<Kamion> fabbione: bug 40119 is yours I guess
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40119 in base-installer "SPARC boot failed: Illegal Instruction" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40119
<fabbione> Kamion: thanks
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: in settings->print settings, None is chosen instead of CUPS by default
<janimo> changing that lets the dialog run
<janimo> but why cmd line behave different I don't know yet
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: another candidate for a new xubu-settings-default upload
<Kamion> good grief, whoever's assigning espresso bugs to ubuntu desktop team, hands off
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: do you also experience font size problems as nomed?
<fabbione> WTH
<janimo> would be better to upload fixes at once
<fabbione> oh that's great
<fabbione> we can't edit bugs anymore?
<Kamion> certainly can, maybe you got logged out by accident
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, I haven't seen font issues, but I need to test it again for this
<fabbione> Kamion: it gives me 404 on editing...
<Kamion> WFM
<fabbione> ahhh
<fabbione> you reassigned it
<fabbione> that's a frigging race condition
<Kamion> heh
<janimo> doko: hi, what is the default font used by gnome UI now?
<janimo> I'd like to set the same for xfce
<doko> janimo: never changed in the last time, always DejaVu
<janimo> doko, thanks
<pitti> Kamion: hm, ppc/live espresso hangs at 'Completely removed gparted'; that worked fine yesterday; known issue to you, or shall I investigate?
<pitti> Kamion: oh, nevermind, it's still purging langpacks, it's just not displaying it
<pitti> sorry for the noise
<Keybuk> mdz: yup, that seems to work
<mdz> Keybuk: send me a copy so I can see it here?
<Keybuk> I will when my laptop boots again :)
<fabbione> pitti: no it's just very very slow
<Keybuk> eww...
* Keybuk changes the icon theme back to GNOME
<pitti> fabbione: yep, I just tail'ed the log and saw it; I really need to fix this soon
<mdz> Mithrandir: review http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/splash-down/casper.diff for me?
<Mithrandir> mdz: looks good to me.  can you hold the upload a second?
<mdz> Mithrandir: sure; feel free to upload it yourself if you prefer
<Mithrandir> mdz: I'll do that.
<Mithrandir> mdz: do you have that in a branch or should I just grab it as is?
<mdz> Mithrandir: as is
<Keybuk> mdz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/splash-down/
<Keybuk> (when the other _i386.deb's have uploaded, obviously :p)
<mdz> Keybuk: you prefer to start it again from sendsigs rather than add a second init script to usplash?
<Keybuk> yeah, was easiest patch
<Keybuk> second init script involves symlink changes, etc.
* milli is away: Attending to something else, for a variety of possible reasons
<Mithrandir> mdz: new casper uploaded.
<mdz> Mithrandir: thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: for final, I mean
<pitti> Mithrandir: ppc/live Testing/Short + Espresso is thumbs up for me, too
<Keybuk> I still suspect I'd start it from sendsigs, simple because sendsigs is responsible for accidentally killing it
<Keybuk> but I'm not unhappy with starting it from another init script again either, other than maybe that'll cause some oddness with progress bar jumps
<mdz> it doesn't strictly know if it was running, though
<Keybuk> nor would any other init script?
<fabbione> pitti: are you updating the wiki?
<mdz> you've duplicated the logic that splash_down uses to determine whether it should start
<Kamion> I'm going to attempt to pull new translations into espresso
<Kamion> when Rosetta gets back to me
<Kamion> should make it for the next archive cycle
<mdz> heh, in the course of discussing it I managed to miss the interesting bit of the shutdown sequence
<Keybuk> mdz: actually, I got that from the initramfs script
<Keybuk> mdz: doofus
<infinity> Erm, why would you restart it from sendsigs, when you can just have sendsigs not kill it in the first place?  (with a patch to killall5)
<infinity> (For final, that is)
<pitti> fabbione: no, since I was told that these are still not the final images; shall I?
<fabbione> well that's what i am doing
<mdz> Keybuk: this looks just fine
<mdz> Keybuk: the flicker isn't too bad in vmware; presumably significantly better on a real machine
<pitti> fabbione: ok, I'll just add my results with the CD version then
<mdz> infinity: I think I like this better actually
<pitti> fabbione: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current ? That still says 'Flight-6'
<fabbione> pitti: whatever.. we discussed this yesterday with dholbach 
<fabbione> to start using it for pre-beta releases
<mdz> infinity: having done it the other way already
<mdz> Keybuk: let's do it
<dholbach> fabbione: we can change the 'flight-6' to daily 19-apr-06 too
<pitti> dholbach: ok, so if that's the page to use, I'll add my results
<dholbach> super
<infinity> mdz: This way will start the splash if it's already timed out and died, and other such oddities.  I'm fine with it for the beta, I'm just questioning it for release.
<mdz> infinity: well, http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/splash-down/usplash.diff is appropriate post-beta in any case, if you'd like to review and merge it
<infinity> mdz: *nod*
* infinity decides to stop debating on IRC and go spend that family time he was meant to.
<mdz> the casper diff in there is already uploaded
<mdz> I'm uncertain about the killall5 patch though
<janimo> Mithrandir: I'll ping you about xubuntu install CD as well not only live, as I wait for last upload to build.thanks
<infinity> Well, killall5 is specifically meant to be called from nowhere but that one init script, so I don't see any harm in customising it.
<infinity> And it already walks the process table and gets process basenames, so it's not invasive.
<mdz> the customisation is backward-compatible anyway
<Mithrandir> mdz: what's the state of splash-down fixing now?  Any uploads pending?
<mdz> Mithrandir: Keybuk should have sysvinit and usplash uploads pending
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: will those hit the archive before 1000Z?
<mdz> Mithrandir: once those and Kamion's translation update, we're ready for a candidate
<mdz> s/,/ have built,/
<Mithrandir> the translation update is uploaded already?
<Kamion> no
<Kamion> going as fast as I can
<Mithrandir> ok, thanks.
<Mithrandir> ogra: do you need new images too for those changes?
<zakame> hi all
<ogra> Mithrandir, usplash ? yes please
<mdz> seb128: are you finished with the panel changes?
<Mithrandir> Riddell: you too?
<mdz> seb128: your upload says it drops the laptop profile, but I thought you changed your mind and decided to modify it instead
<seb128> mdz: yep
<seb128> I did a second upload
<mdz> hmm, I don't see it on -changes
<seb128>  gnome-panel (2.14.1-0ubuntu4) dapper; urgency=low
<seb128>  .
<seb128>    * debian/gnome-panel-data.postinst,
<seb128>      debian/panel-default-setup-laptop.entries, debian/rules:
<seb128>      - drop the laptop profile, it was to use battstat which is not required now
<seb128>        (Ubuntu: #32348)
<seb128> my -changes box has it
<Riddell> Mithrandir: what's the change?
<mdz> seb128: that's the one I see, it says it drops the profile
<seb128> ups
<seb128>  gnome-panel (2.14.1-0ubuntu5) dapper; urgency=low
<seb128>  .
<seb128>    * debian/gnome-panel-data.postinst,
<seb128>      debian/panel-default-setup-laptop.entries, debian/rules:
<seb128>      - laptop profile is useful for wireless applet, modify the profile
<seb128>        to not use battstat since it's not required
<Mithrandir> Riddell: better splashdown which leaves users less confused.
<mdz> ah, there it is
<seb128> from 1 hour ago
<mdz> Riddell: unfucked live CD shutdown
<seb128> I uploaded just before 9utc
<Riddell> sounds desireable, yes please Mithrandir 
<mdz> Keybuk's uploads are accepted
<Kamion> mine is in progress, should make it before :02
<Kamion> (which is the cut-off)
<zakame> hmm is there something wrong with digikam's source package?  I couldn't seem to dpkg-source -x a fresh download from the archive
<Kamion> hmm, no, didn't make it, damnit
<Kamion> sorry
<pitti> dholbach: hmm, but after updating the CD number we should probably drop the older test results, right?
<dholbach> pitti: yeah, that makes only sense.
<pitti> dholbach: right now it's confusing
<pitti> dholbach: ok, will remove it if you agree
<dholbach> sure!
* dholbach hugs pitti
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: looks like they went in at 0955Z
<mdz> Kamion: can we cheat?
<pitti> fabbione: are your test results on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current from the recent CDs?
<Kamion> mdz: may be able to do another publisher run after this one finishes, yes
<fabbione> pitti: yes
<Kamion> I'll go have breakfast and be ready when it's done
<pitti> dholbach: updated
<dholbach> pitti: nice.
<ogra> dholbach, did you merge your dasher -meta upload in edubuntu ? 
<mdz> pitti: if you're editing, please move the espresso row nearer to the top, it's one of the most important cases to test
<pitti> mdz: not any more, but I'll do that
<dholbach> ogra: no.
<ogra> ok, doing now
<dholbach> ogra: a bit of space for you :)
<mdz> pitti: in fact, perhaps replace the 'live session' one?
<mdz> pitti: since if an espresso install works, the live session must have worked
<pitti> mdz: hm, but testing the live session also involves testing OO.o, ffox, and so on
<ogra> dholbach, oh, yes, looks like i need it, the CDs are not happy about tonights changes :/
<pitti> mdz: so, that row should stay for Testing/Short and Testing/Long results maybe?
<pitti> mdz: I'm about to move it directly below the live session line
<mdz> pitti: sure
<dholbach> ogra: dasher-data was particularly big, so you might be happy again :)
<mdz> pitti: also, the instructions refer to a nonexistent 'bugs found' section
<ogra> dholbach, hmm, looks like i'm 8M oversized 
<ogra> oh, and dasher data is 6M big :)
<dholbach> :-)
<pitti> mdz: fixed as well
<mdz> pitti: thanks
<pitti> np
<pitti> Keybuk: hm, nm-applet fails with 'could not find some required resources'; known bug?
<mdz> NM *is* a known bug ;-)
<Keybuk> pitti: someone broke the icon theme again?
<pitti> heh, but it worked just fine two weeks ago, and now not at all; I call that a regression :)
<Keybuk> iz gtk bug
* zakame almost read that as new-maintainer-applet
<ogra> Keybuk, edubuntu uses other icon themes, i have it there as well, so it might lie deeper down
<fabbione> mdz: i might need to do an urgent upload of silo and silo-installer
<fabbione> i think i found a regression, but it's taking sometime to fix it.
<fabbione> s/fix/testing the fix/
<Kamion> mdz: hmm, I believe that bug 40131 will happen on any machine with an operating system somewhere else on the disk that os-prober doesn't recognise
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40131 in espresso "grub-installer  /target exited with code 1" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40131
<Kamion> that may be ... unfortunate for beta
<\sh> fabbione: ping
<fabbione> \sh: ?
<Keybuk> ogra: it's come up before, usually whenever the icon theme changes
<\sh> fabbione: i'm installing just now an ubuntu server....I'm in need of fai on the install cd :)
<Keybuk> the missing resource is an icon
<Keybuk> I don't know much more than that though; seb128 or dholbach will know
<\sh> oh btw...Just for the records, I have a freelance job again :)
<dholbach> Keybuk: can you make sure to run    dh_iconcache   in network-manager's debian/rules somewhere?
<seb128> pitti: does it wrok if you move /usr/share/icons/hicolor/icon-theme.cache away?
<seb128> work
<Keybuk> dholbach: probably after beta
<Keybuk> file me a bug
<pitti> seb128: trying...
* Kamion fixes grub-installer/espresso, I think
<pitti> seb128: as always, you are right. thanks, mate!
<seb128> np ;)
<pitti> seb128: so, what do I file the bug against?
<seb128> as mentionned by dholbach, the package needs to use dh_iconcache
<seb128> pitti: cf some lines up
<ogra> pitti, against Keybuk, he should correct the errormessage to be less confusing ;)
<seb128> that's because the cache masks the new installed icons if not updated
<pitti> seb128: ah, ok
<dholbach> Keybuk: bug 40139 - thanks. :-)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40139 in network-manager "please call dh_iconcache in debian/rules" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40139
<doko> ohh fuck, my notebook hard disk just died ...
<seb128> so packages installing an icon have to make sure they update the cache
<pitti> doko: ouch
<dholbach> doko: :-/
<ogra> doko, with anything beta critical on it ? 
<doko> I'll see ;-) you can hear the bearings ... and it was a mistake to turn the nb off!
<mdz> Kamion: hmm, I just tried a resize install with espresso and got 'too small size'
<mdz> Kamion: noticed that the slider was set to 0 by default, then went to click it and it changed to 7 without me moving the slider
<Kamion> the slider is supposed to be updated based on what partman-auto says the minimum size is
<Kamion> but maybe that's broken
<mdz> even with it at 7, I get 'too small size'
<Kamion> can you reproduce that with ESPRESSO_DEBUG=1 and get me the log?
<mdz> likewise with 14
<mdz> but 49 is big enough
<mdz> will try when this finishes
<Kamion> (and as usual, use a throwaway password)
<mdz> I always do for test installs
<Kamion> if you could try before you perturb the system so that it's no longer reproducible, that would be nice ;)
<Kamion> resizing can easily do that
* Kamion does a by-hand publisher run
<Kamion> I'll need to do another one for 40131 though
<ogra> sigh
<mdz> Kamion: I don't imagine it's safe to abort the resize
<ogra> i hate hate hate bzr slowness
<Kamion> ah
<Kamion> probably not, no
<mdz> the only way to test whether any value was accepted was to click forward
<Kamion> mm, true
<fabbione> mdz: ok i have the fix for silo. can i upload?
<fabbione> mdz: i am still digging in silo installer, but that one probably can wait after beta.. not sure yet if it is even a bug
<Kamion> I looked at the code, don't see anything obvious at the moment - syncing images at the moment to see if I can duplicate it
<mdz> fabbione: sure, but it may not make it into this next candidate
<mdz> Kamion: this was on amd64 fwiw
<fabbione> mdz: ports can be built async from the others.. so it shouldn't be an issue
<Kamion> fabbione: sparc is no longer ports
<Kamion> as far as cdimage is concerned
<mdz> Kamion: but it is now possible to build non-ports architectures out of step as well, no?
<fabbione> oh ok.. sorry.. give me time to adjust to the new world order
<Kamion> mdz: yes, we can rebuild single architectures
<Diziet> Is anyone here an expert on pango ?
<Diziet> I need to know whether it's sensible to use pango if you think you already know the metrics of the font, and are going to place things yourself.
* ogra is still waiting for the seeds to sync ... for a -meta rebuild ...
<mdz> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+builds says no pending builds; can that be right?
<Diziet> I'm hoping that the answer is `no'.
<mdz> Kinnison: what's the most straightforward way for us to require approval for all dapper uploads?
<Keybuk> Diziet: do you know that the font contains all the characters you need?
<Keybuk> pango's speciality is ensuring you can render any unicode character, and are not limited to those in a particular font
<Diziet> Keybuk: It's not me that might be using pango in this way.  Are you providing an argument to say that no-one could reasonably do so ?
<Diziet> I would like to do something to pango which would break exactly applications which do that.
<Diziet> For example, if evince used pango to do the document's text rendering somehow (obviously this doesn't really fit with the PDF model but it could bodge it somehow for some reason, and anyway it's just an example).
<Keybuk> evince does use pango, doesn't it?
<mdz> Kamion: hmm, the progress bar has closed and there's no more hard disk activity, so I assume the resize finished, but I still have a busy cursor
<Diziet> Not for rendering the text in the main document window, surely ?  I thought that stuff was all defined by the PostScript/PDF font and rendering model.
<Diziet> Obviously it uses pango for the widgets etc.
<Keybuk> no idea
<Keybuk> if it doesn't use pango, how does it render international text?
<Kamion> mdz: sounds like a bug
<Diziet> Keybuk: PostScript and PDF have their own font and glyph resolution setup.
<mdz> Kamion: the Forward button is sensitive, but clicking it doesn't take me anywhere
<Kamion> mdz: tail the log, see if it says anything
<mdz> Kamion: nothing
<Kamion> I need the log attached to a bug report
<mdz> last thing in there is a bunch of those recipes.sh 'not a valid identifier' errors
<Kamion> there may be something earlier on
<mdz> ok
<Kinnison> mdz: Hmm, not sure, give me a few minutes to ponder that
<ogra> hmm, why do we have universe fonts in the desktop seed
<ogra> ttf-lao and ttf-gentium are in both desktop seeds (edu/ubuntu)
<mdz> Kinnison: while you ponder, please do some test installs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current
<Kinnison> mdz: sure
<Mithrandir> Kamion: the language list is sorted weirdly - norsk bokml, nederlands, norsk nynorsk.
<Kamion> Kinnison: the by-hand publisher run I'm doing isn't going to finish quite in time, so I've moved the cronned one back a few minutes
<Mithrandir> (probably because of nb_NO, nl_NL, nn_NO?)
<Kamion> Mithrandir: please file a bug, I can't deal with stuff on IRC right now
<Kinnison> Kamion: sure, you can always disable the cronned one while you do them byhand if you want
<Kamion> Kinnison: good idea, done
<Kamion> heh, actually it would have finished, but never mind
<Kinnison> :-)
<mdz> Kamion: log mailed
<mdz> Kamion: you want a malone bug as well?
<Kamion> mdz: yes please
<mdz> Kamion: one or two? ('too small size' and inability to continue after resizing)
<Kamion> hmm, just one for now I think, they sound like they may be intertwingled
<Kamion> Mithrandir: oh, the language list in *gfxboot*. You could have said. :)
<Mithrandir> Kamion: yeah, sorry.
<lool> hi there, sorry for the bug spam in #40119, I clicked on "Also Needs Fixing Here" by mistake and didn't find how to reverse my action easily
<Kamion> mdz: ah, for the bug, please make sure you use ESPRESSO_DEBUG=1; probably not much I can do with the non-debug log in a bug report
<mdz> lool: fixed
<herzi> mvo: https://launchpad.net/bugs/5752
<lool> mdz: thanks
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 5752 in update-notifier "TrayIcon-Code is suboptimal" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
<lool> mdz: was it under my power to fix it?
<mdz> Kamion: perhaps debug should be the default, then?  how hard is it to fix the password disclosure problem?
<mdz> lool: probably; the only way to fix it is to set the status to Rejected
<mvo> herzi: thanks, I have seen it. but I haven't tried to reproduce it yet
<lool> mdz: ok, I'll try to remember that
<Kamion> mdz: fiddly; fixing it in debconf in a non-insane way is nearly impossible, sort of like trying to fix it in strace would be
<mvo> herzi: or rather, I have when I applied the patch, but not again now :)
* lool . o O (perhaps a [ ]  checkbox would be safer)
<Kamion> mdz: so the only approach I can think of is to handle debconf's stderr in espresso and filter it
<Kamion> I'm a little concerned about memory use due to log file bloat too - a simple installation in debug mode can easily chew a megabyte
<mdz> lool: how did you arrive at that page where you clicked on 'also needs fixing here'?
<mdz> lool: and what was the URL?
<lool> mdz: I simply loaded the bug report from the URL the submitter sent to ubuntu-devel@
<mdz> Kamion: could always gzip the log for the latter problem
<mdz> lool: what URL was that?
<lool> mdz: I think it was "https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/base-installer/+bug/40119"
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40119 in linux-source-2.6.15 "SPARC boot failed: Illegal Instruction" [Normal,Needs info]  
<lool> confirmed from the email https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/base-installer/+bug/40119
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40119 in linux-source-2.6.15 "SPARC boot failed: Illegal Instruction" [Normal,Needs info]  
<mdz> lool: I would have expected 'also needs fixing here' to create a task on base-installer, then, but it was on Ubuntu
<Kamion> it's no longer filed on base-installer, which is why you got that
<lool> mdz: it was on base-installer
<lool> mdz: but I tried removing the source package name to delete the reference on base-installer@ubuntu
<Kamion> it was originally on base-installer, yes; I moved it to just Ubuntu
<Kamion> lool: it's best to go back to launchpad.net/bugs/BUGNUMBER and let the redirector send you to the right place
<lool> Kamion: well, I followed the URL of the submitter, I'm not trained to the format of launchpad URLs (yet), I might use the bug number only next time to be safe
<Kamion> lool: yes, just saying
<mdz> Kamion: how far are we from being ready to do new livefs builds?
<Kamion> mdz: source for the fix to bug 40131 is publishing; I'll shove binaries through asap after that
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40131 in espresso "grub-installer  /target exited with code 1" [Major,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40131
<mdz> Kamion: trying to coordinate with some DC maintenance and ideally would like to start the livefs builds before the lights go out
<mdz> Kamion: but if it will be a while, we should do it now
<Kamion> I think about an hour
<mdz> ok, thanks
<nomed> Kamion: going to file a bug .. but first of all could u confirm gtkmozembed is the only module from gnome2-extras "used" by espresso?
<Kamion> nomed: it doesn't actually use gtkmozembed any more - the function in question isn't called
<Kamion> yeah, suppose I should remove that dependency
<nomed> Kamion: yep i've seen
<mdz> Riddell: is the latest artwork from Ken in?
<nomed> that's what install gnome stuff in xubuntu
<Kamion> I don't use anything else
<Kamion> nomed: no need for a bug, I'll fix that now
<nomed> k thanks
<Kamion> although won't upload yet, we have too much else happening
<mdz> lool: it seems like a common mistake, but I didn't understand how it was happening, thanks
<Riddell> mdz: on the kubuntu side it is yes
<nomed> Kamion: i understand
<Riddell> mdz: but there's a problem in kde espresso
<lool> mdz: the button doesn't look like a button, but I probably won't repeat the same mistake now
<mdz> lool: I'll talk to the LP developers about it
<mdz> Riddell: what's the problem?
<Diziet> WTF does pango need a dbs-a-like for ?  It has one upstream tarball and one patch !
<lool> this is the case of a lot of dbs packages
<Kamion> Riddell: the log in bug 40143 is relatively clear - I might be able to fix it, actually, since I changed similar code in gtkui not long ago
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40143 in espresso "Bug at step 5 with kubuntu dapper flight 6 and espresso upgrade 0.99.54" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40143
<Riddell> mdz: it seems to have started crashing when it shows the progress bar
<mdz> Riddell: starting when?
<Riddell> Kamion: that's a different bug which is easy to solve
<Riddell> mdz: on yesterdays live CDs
<Riddell> it seems to be a random evil crash in pykde
<ogra> mdz, do i need to poke you to approve my last -meta upload ? it doesnt show up on LP (or am i to impatient ?)
<fabbione> ogra: i think LP is in manual mode..
<ogra> ah
<ogra> thats what i suspected
<dholbach> how often are the dvd images built?
<fabbione> mdz: why did you reject 40119 ?
<fabbione> ah
<fabbione> CRAP
<fabbione> jeeeee
<fabbione> it's so frigging confusing
<Kamion> Riddell: could you confirm the fix I just committed to my branch for 40143?
<Kamion> er, sorry, just finished pushing now
<Kamion> dholbach: twice a week
<dholbach> Kamion: ah ok, thanks.
<Riddell> Kamion: you also need to put  unicode() around widget.text()
<lool> fabbione: sorry, my fault, see discussion here
<fabbione> lool: ok no problem..
<Kamion> Riddell: wow, annoying interface :) done, pushed
<Kamion> anyone have an opinion on where the espresso menu entry should land?
<Kamion> Accessories?
<Kamion> or System -> Administration?
<Kamion> I'm guessing System -> Administration, will move it there
<ogra> can anybody please please approve edubuntu-meta 0.65 ? 
<seb128> Kamion: admin seems about right since it requires sudo
<ogra> Kamion, ? Mithrandir ? ^^^
<Kamion> ogra: huh? it's been in accepted for 39 minutes, it'll be in the next cron.daily run
<ogra> hmm
<Kamion> relax
<Kamion>    21773 | S- | edubuntu-meta        | 0.65                 | 39 minutes
<Kamion>          | * edubuntu-meta/0.65 Component: main Section: base
<ogra> the source doesnt show up anywhere, neither on LP nor on a.u.c 
<Kamion> because it's only in the accepted queue, which is not visible
<ogra> usually i find it at least on a.u.c ... but as i said above, i'm to impatient
<ogra> (waiting 3h again for that dasher change is heavy ...)
<zul> heylo
<Kamion> ogra: you will never find stuff in accepted on archive.ubuntu.com
<ogra> yeah, i usually wait longer before i look :)
<ogra> hmm, whats an eft ....
* ogra looks it up
<Kamion> ah, cool, I see the launchpad UI has functionality superseding the morgue now
<fabbione> Kamion: !!!! where???
<ogra> so we can "morguify" via launchpad now ? 
* ogra tickles Kamion 
<Kamion> /distros/ubuntu/+source/sourcepkgname, click on the version you want
<Kamion> ogra: viewing, not changing
<ogra> :)
<fabbione> neat
<fabbione> mdz, Kamion, Mithrandir: http://people.ubuntu.com/~fabbione/debdiff <- can you please pre-approve it? i am testing it as we speak
<fabbione> will wait after the test for upload. of course
<Keybuk> why do things always go south?
<Keybuk> why don't they ever go west?
<Keybuk> life is different there ...
* Kinnison tickles keybuk and then runs off to lunch
<Mithrandir> fabbione: do you really want to run silo -f "" ?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: hmm no.. 
<fabbione> right..
<fabbione> Mithrandir: debdff updated
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: why would it run -f "" ?
<Keybuk> that's not zsh
<Kamion> fabbione: 'if echo "$bootfs" | grep -q /dev/md'
<Kamion> rather than the pointless [] 
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: because it was silo -f "$siloopt" and with siloopt being empty, it'd be -f ""
<fabbione> Kamion: ok. i had bad experience using that form that's why i don't use it
<Kamion> I've been trying to root out [ "$(... | grep)" ] , it's bad shell style
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: ah, duh; I was clearly looking at the updated version then :)
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: that'd explain it. :-)
* Kamion starts a publisher run with current espresso binaries
<Mithrandir> fabbione: apart from that, I'm happy.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: ok thanks
<Unfrgiven> edgy eft... has a nice ring to the name. ++ from me! (referring to sabdfl's mail on ubuntu-devel)
<Mithrandir> fabbione: you might want to fix Kamion's issue too
<Keybuk> oh, has that been announced now?
<Unfrgiven> Keybuk: just minutes back
<fabbione> Mithrandir, Kamion: new debdiff. both issues addressed
<fabbione> anything else?
<Mithrandir> fabbione: looks good to me
<Kamion> fine by me
<fabbione> thanks
<fabbione> uploaded
<fabbione> SCREW THE WORLD SPARC / ON LVM ON RAID OUT OF THE BOX!
<Mithrandir> uh, weren't you supposed to test it first?
<fabbione> i did
<fabbione> dude.. i wasn't doing nothing while uploading debdiff
* _ion feels good. I liberated myself from the MSN, Yahoo and ICQ IM networks today. :-)
<Riddell> Kamion: seems the evil random crash on kde espresso is fixed by commenting out set_locales
<Riddell> I guess gettext is mixing with the inbuilt KDE locale stuff and getting confused
<Riddell> Kamion: would you be able to comment out the self.set_locales() call and upload?
<Kamion> Riddell: gettext is still needed for timezones
<Kamion>         translations = gettext.translation('iso_3166',
<Kamion>                                            languages=[self.frontend.locale] ,
<Kamion>                                            fallback=True)
<Kamion> is there a native KDE replacement for that?
<Riddell> yeah I seem to remember there is
<Riddell> but I think it'll take me too much time to get it working properly for beta
<Riddell> where is self.locale set?
<Kamion> how does the timezone page behave if you're in another locale and haven't run set_locales?
<Kamion> it's set in the language component's cleanup method
<Kamion> probably should be an accessor method rather than reaching in and setting it directly
<Kamion> hmm, actually it's possible set_locales isn't needed to make gettext.translation work anyway
<Kamion> since after all it's binding to a domain we don't bother to use any more
<Kamion> so I'll just remove the code
<\sh> hmmm...what about qts setlocale?
<Kamion> Riddell: what's the bug number again?
<Kamion> \sh: I think it's not needed here, set_locales is actually doing bindtextdomain and stuff despite the method name
<Riddell> Kamion: no bug reported for it
<Kamion> ok
<\sh> Kamion: so only the gettext problem is left
<Kamion> \sh: that may well not be a problem either; it's getting a translation from a different domain
<Kamion> using the class-based API, not the global-state API
<Kamion> which intuitively seems less likely to interfere with pykde
<\sh> well, if there is a problem with the interaction between gettext and pykde we should raise it to riverbanks computing...I can check earliest during the weekend..if there is an issue with it
<Kamion> Riddell: pushed; can you check my branch?
<Kamion> \sh: ah, well, the underlying problem sure, just saying that we've probably worked around the immediate breakage now
<\sh> Kamion: cool :)
<Riddell> sigh, still seems to crash
<Riddell> this is so random
<Kamion> is there a traceback or anything?
<Kamion> and when does it crash?
<Riddell> it crashes when it tries to create a kdialog of any sort
<Kamion> score
<Riddell> but sometimes it doesn't crash, it was fine when I was writing it and suddenly it was fine when I commented out set_locale
<Riddell> but now second time I try its back to crashing
<janimo> Mithrandir: archive ready for both xubuntu install and live cd build
<Riddell> and kcrash doesn't want to run and give a backtrace
* Kamion starts an ubuntu livefs build
<Kamion> janimo: I'll do the install CDs for you now
<janimo> Kamion: ok
<janimo> what about the lives?
<Kamion> not while the Ubuntu livefs build is running
<Kamion> mdz wants that ASAP
<Kamion> as do I, for that matter :)
<janimo> sure, I mean you're the 'contact' for those too?
<Kamion> anyone in ubuntu-cdimage, but I can do them, yes
<Kamion> well, probably not actually, I don't think all of ubuntu-cdimage have the necessary buildd access
<Kamion> me, Mithrandir, infinity
<nomed> janimo: PS: firefox home is file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index-en_GB.html in the installed xubuntu (livecd)
* janimo could learn lots of new animal names if ubuntu released even more often
* pitti sighs at svn and greatly misses bzr's love
<Mithrandir> pitti: you miss bzr's speed too?
<janimo> nomed, so it does not open? in default install fireofx opened it right
<pitti> Mithrandir: doesn't make much of a difference locally
<Mithrandir> pitti: oh, true that.
<pitti> Mithrandir: and the time I need to manually fix up svn merges by far outweighs the bzr speed penalty...
<pitti> (apart from being error prone in the first place)
<\sh> fabbione: the default install kernel from ubuntu server, does it have dhcpd and nfs configured?
<\sh> dhcp -d ;)
<fabbione> \sh: /boot/config....
<nomed> janimo: yep it shows File not found error
<Riddell> Kamion: ok, looks like it needs the call to self.translate_widgets() in __init__  commented out as well
<janimo> nomed, probably because we do not have any translations of the about doc
<nomed> janimo: then .. i'm talkin to xarchiver devel ..
<janimo> so only with en_US is going to work.  I guess
<janimo> nomed, will they be ready soon?
<nomed> anything you would ask ?
<nomed> janimo: work in progress :/
<nomed> no deadlines
<janimo> nothing new then
<janimo> :(
<nomed> janimo: anyway the debian version is buggy
<janimo> right
<\sh> fabbione: no..not the installed kernel, the kernel on the boot cd :)
<nomed> he sent me patches
<janimo> I'd rather he made releases :)
<fabbione> \sh: it's the same as any other install kernel.. 
<\sh> ok..
<Kamion> Riddell: that's bad - that genuinely is still needed
<Kamion> fabbione: do you want the -server kernel installed on amd64 installs too?
<fabbione> Kamion: yes. only x86 and x86_64
<Kamion> Riddell: if you comment that out, what happens when you select a different language?
<Kamion> Riddell: i.e. does any call to translate_widgets break?
<Kamion> fabbione: -bigiron folks get to fend for themselves?
<Riddell> Kamion: process_step() also calls translate_widgets() and that works fine
<fabbione> Kamion: yeps
<Kamion> Riddell: wow, weird
<Riddell> yes, it's got me confused
<Kamion> Riddell: it'll mean that repeated runs of espresso will have wrong text to start with, though
<mdz> back from lunch, how is everything?
<mdz> livefs builds in progress?
<Kamion> mdz: Ubuntu livefs building, still diagnosing the pykde bug
* ogra would really love if we could speed up LP temporary before milestone releases)
<mdz> ogra: if we could speed it up, we would do it all of the time
<ogra> heh :)
<Kamion> Riddell: ok, if I do that, is that good to upload?
<Riddell> Kamion: no, some more qstring/unicode problems have turned up
* fabbione takes a short nap before second round of testing
<Kamion> I've left a todo comment there
<Kamion> fabbione: ubuntu-server CDs should use the -server kernel by default now; needs testing after the next build
<Kamion> Riddell: (pushed)
<mdz> Diziet: my firefox has somehow ended up with enormous fonts for the menu bar, location bar, tabs, form widgets, etc...is this related to the recent font changes, and do you have a guess as to where I should be looking to diagnose it?
<fabbione> Kamion: great! will test as soon as they are ready and me a bit more awake
<fabbione> bbl
<Kamion> mdz: I see the resize problem, but fixing it requires some difficult code in the espresso partman component; is it beta-critical?
<mdz> Kamion: nope
<Kamion> ok, good, I'll look at it with more leisure later
<mdz> Kamion: it doesn't affect *all* resizing scenarios, right?
<mdz> Kamion: what do you think about changing the remaining time estimate to be in minutes rather than seconds?  it fluctuates a bit much as it is
<Kamion> mdz: it affects all auto-resize scenarios
<Kamion> mdz: fine, although I think once it gets below a minute it should be in seconds
<mdz> Kamion: hmm..."auto resizing doesn't work" is sort of a big one for the known bugs/caveats list
<Kamion> it does work, the UI is just very messy
<Kamion> oh, sorry, two conflated issues
<Kamion> crap, I hadn't looked at the forward button not working yet, I was just talking about the slider being at zero
<mdz> the thing with the slider is not a big deal, but the inability to continue is
<Kamion> agreed; investigating now, I see it too
<Kamion> that may be a one-liner
<mdz> the time estimate goes up and down a lot, especially on laptop drives which spin up and down
<mdz> which is why I don't think 1-second granularity is appropriate
<mdz> we could make it a decaying average or something, but it seems simpler to just fuzzy it
<Kamion> by the time we get to less than one minute left, we have accumulated enough data that I think it should be possible to smooth that out
<Kamion> it actually is a decaying average
<mdz> oh
<Kamion> can easily tweak the decay
<mdz> it's surprisingly unstable then
<Kamion> oh, no, it's not quite - it samples over a period of time and takes the average of the last minute's worth of samples
<mdz> how many samples per minute?
<Kamion> which is not really the same thing as a decaying average, although it would probably not be too hard to make it one
<Kamion> it samples after every file but only keeps samples that are at least half a second apart
<Kamion> so if there are big files in there it could be rather less than 120 samples per minute
<mvo> iirc there is a open bugreport about resizing showing no progress information?
<Kamion> I didn't want to get into the signal handling or threading required to sample more smoothly than that
<Kamion> mvo: it depends on the filesystem, I believe; those bugs are common between d-i and espresso
<mvo> Kamion: thanks, it seems to be bug #39685
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39685 in debian-installer "Installer seems to hang during partition resizing, usability issue" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39685
<Kamion> mvo: there's almost certainly a bug about that for the regular installer, probably on partman-ext3
<nomed> janimo: ping
<janimo> nomed: yes
<Kamion> mdz: ok, testing a fix for that now, although I think we should go ahead and test images before that fix too
<nomed> janimo: #ubuntu-meeting (Current meeting: Xubuntu )
<mdz> Kamion: do we have images to test?
<Kamion> mdz: not quite yet; they should be nearly done though
<ogra> is little busy currently ? or can i do a testbuild of install ?
<Kamion> ogra: go ahead
<ogra> ah, k
<ogra> oh, good :)
<Kamion> it's the livefses I'm waiting for, and I can start the live CD build in parallel with you
<ogra> yes, i only want to see the size after dropping dasher 
<ogra> its very much on the edge, worst case i have to drop something additionally
<Kamion> you can use germinate to get size report
<Kamion> s
<Kamion> do it before and after with local seeds, and you can get the difference
<ogra> too late :) already building now
<ogra> i'll do it the next time
<Kamion> I've set the publisher back to run from cron now
<janimo> hmm should this be the correct URL? rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/current/dapper-install-i386.iso
<Kamion> janimo: looks right to me
<janimo> unknown module xubuntu
<janimo> rsycn error
<_ion> % rsync -P rsync://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/daily/current/dapper-install-i386.iso .
<Kamion> oh, cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/... for rsync
<_ion> @ERROR: Unknown module 'xubuntu'
<Kamion> rsync doesn't support virtual hosting so you have to have the extra /cdimage there
<Kamion> to distinguish from other things being served by the same host
<janimo> Kamion, thanks
<hendry> Kamion: could you tell me please about how the kubuntu livecd is created?
<Riddell> hendry: what do you want to know?
<mdz> pitti: do you know why the cdimage report says language-support-en is uninstallable on amd64?
<pitti> uh, no, I don't
<hendry> Riddell: in the scripts it seems to want an image from http://terranova.buildd/
<hendry> just wondering how that is setup
<Diziet> Are we still in beta freeze ?  If so I need a freeze exception or to be told to wait ...
<hendry> kubuntu uses squashfs i think. not sure how casper comes in here.
<Mithrandir> Diziet: we're frozen, yes.
<Riddell> that'll be the live fs build, probably Mithrandir has the scripts to make it, but just before beta isn't a good time to ask
<ogra> hendry, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/archives/colin.watson@canonical.com--2005/debian-cd/ might help
<Mithrandir> hendry: that's just a debootstrap + package installations + mksquashfs and it pulls the squashed file system, the initrd and the kernel.
<hendry> ogra: yeah, i have that thanks
<Diziet> I have what I'm pretty confident is the right fix to the printing vs firefox font issue.  It tests fine for me with firefox and evince, which are the two test cases I've been given, and it feels right.
<Diziet> The new packages are fontconfig and pango.  No new firefox needed.
<Mithrandir> Diziet: is it crucial for beta?
<hendry> Mithrandir: by package installations, do you mean the germinate selections? or just the base system?
<Diziet> No, I don't think it's crucial for beta.  Waiting would be OK.
<Diziet> We've got doko's reversion of the reversion which will do for the beta.
<hendry> Riddell: what do you mean by beta? is there a beta release coming soon?
<Mithrandir> hendry: it does something along the lines of apt-get install ubuntu-desktop ubuntu-live
<Mithrandir> Diziet: ok, let's wait, then.
<infinity> But a bit messier than that.
<Mithrandir> hendry: Dapper beta tomorrow, yes.
<hendry> Mithrandir: are the scripts in bzr that are used to create the squashfs somewhere?
<Diziet> mithrandir: OK.
<infinity> hendry: No.
<hendry> ok, beta. cool. oh well, i won't bother you guys.
<Mithrandir> hendry: no, I'm afraid not.
<mdz> hendry: it's just a filesystem image of an installed ubuntu system
<hendry> ok, though i was interested in the scripts used to create it. i'm that lazy. =)
<hendry> ok, i'm going to relax and watch a movie
<pitti> mdz: strange, all dependencies are in main, and it's certainly installable here
<pitti> mdz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/testing/dapper_probs.html only complains about l-support-lo, that's just missing the ttf-lao promotion
<Kamion> mdz: according to http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/cd-build-logs/ubuntu-daily-20060419.log it's an overflow
<Kamion> search for "CD 1 filled"
<pitti> ah
<Kamion> somebody please take a couple of language packs out
<Kamion> new Ubuntu live CDs up
<pitti> Kamion: can you see how big the 2nd CD is? I.e. how many MBs need to be killed off?
* ogra alwasy looks for "CD 2 only uses ..." ... that way you get the value you need directly :)
<mdz> Kamion: ah
<mdz> Kamion: I assume you don't need that espresso debug log anymore?
<pitti> ah, 1.3 MB
<Kamion> mdz: nope
<Kamion> pitti: yes, see the log
<Kamion> just after the thing I suggested searching for
<Kamion> ah, ogra told you
<mdz> Kamion: am I reading this right?
<pitti> Kamion: yep, see above, 1.3 MB; I adapt the seeds now
<mdz> CD 1 will only be filled with 677502556 bytes ...
<mdz> didn't we bump up that limit?
<Kamion> mdz: that's excluding stuff like dists and boot loaders
<mdz> ah
<mdz> and winfoss
<Kamion> I did bump up the limit, yes
<Kamion> no winfoss on install CDs
<mdz> oh, do we not even bother with debian-cd for live now?
<Kamion> we do
<Kamion> although we've kind of sawed off the side of its head
<pitti> Kamion: new seeds pushed
<ogra> huh
<ogra> why do i have sparc images 
<ogra> crap, still oversized
<Kamion> ogra: we're building sparc as a non-ports architecture now
<Kamion> so everyone gets it
<ogra> hmm, if i had known that i'd have added debians sparc support patches to ltsp :/
<janimo> Kamion, when ubuntu live is done, please trigger xubuntu
<janimo> on  non-386 too as it worked for 386
<janimo> thanks
<ogra> hmm, the log doesnt indicate that its oversized, very strange
<Kamion> janimo: building
<ogra> Kamion, any idea ? the log doesnt indicate at all that there was anything oversized (http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/cd-build-logs/edubuntu-daily-20060419.1.log)
<ogra> but the report talks about 25 uninstallables
<ogra> including alien and lsb
<pitti> doko: thank you for your recent printer bug triage rave
<mdz> i386 espresso install is looking good; it's at the "bug 34593" stage of installation
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 34593 in langpack-locales "removing the package regenerates the locales for ALL other languages" [Major,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/34593
<mdz> pitti: do you have any guesses on that? is it a problem with the debconfiscations?
<ogra> damn... what do you drop if you dont know how much space is needed :/
<mdz> the least necessary things
<pitti> mdz: as a first measure, we could deactivate removal of locales in the first place
<ogra> mdz, heh, i'm far beyond that
<mdz> pitti: i want to avoid cruft in beta installs; they should be cleanly upgradeable to final
<pitti> mdz: they don't exactly hurt, it was mainly for proper cleanup
<mdz> with a reasonably equivalent result
<doko> pitti: there are still too many open ... did you already decide on cups 1.2 after the beta?
<pitti> doko: yes, the packages are looking quite good
<pitti> mdz: cruft? you are talking about the locale regeneration, right?
<ogra> none of the ally changes were merged in the seeds, that struck me hard tonight ... gnome-ally-themes would gain me a lot, but i'm not sure if i  wanna drop that
<mdz> pitti: I mean having the langpacks installed
<Kamion> ogra: reload
<Kamion> ogra: (the report)
<mdz> pitti: did I misunderstand?
<pitti> mdz: hm, I'm confused now; I talked about how to speed up langpack purging
<Kamion> ogra: or maybe not - anyway it looks fine on little, probably just hasn't mirrored properly
<ogra> oh
<ogra> the current link is wrong
<mdz> pitti: I thought you were suggesting we skip removing the langpacks
<pitti> mdz: no, I mean not remove the locales when purging the langpacks
<ogra> Kamion, thanks
<ogra> that looks better
<pitti> mdz: the real solution would be to find a much faster way to remove then without regenerating the other ones
<mdz> pitti: yes, I understand now
<pitti> mdz: the current binary locale structure should actually make that possible
<Kamion> ogra: yep, seems fixed now
<ogra> yup
<ogra> all fine :)
<mdz> pitti: I would not mind leaving the generated locales around to improve the installer experience
<trappist> <3 localepurge
<pitti> mdz: the bug just never hurt enough to become so important on my list
<mdz> pitti: feel free to upload that if it is simple and safe
<pitti> mdz: you want it for beta?
<ogra> so i'm ready for a livefs build (Kamion, Mithrandir, whoever can trigger one)
<Kamion> that will mean that those generated locales never get removed
<mdz> pitti: I don't think we need to do a new build for it, but if we do one for another reason, it would be nice
<Kamion> ogra: you might be, but the buildds aren't :)
<Kamion> ogra: (you're stuck behind xubuntu)
<ogra> heh, ok
<ogra> i can wait
<pitti> mdz: that would require a belocs-locales-bin upload to remove the locale call in /usr/share/locales/remove-language-pack
<ogra> as long as i know my isos are well sized ;)
<Kamion> mdz: I believe I've fixed the resize bug now, so ...
<mdz> pitti: hmm, wait, won't that cause them to show up in the gdm language chooser?
<pitti> mdz: it's safe, just leaves cruft
<pitti> mdz: presumably
<mvo> pitti: will they show up with "locales -a" ?
<mdz> pitti: that's not idela
<mdz> ideal
<pitti> mdz: as I said, it's a workaroud for beta, the real solution is to clean up locales in a better way
<mvo> pitti: if so, language-selector will also offer them in the combobox for the default language
<pitti> right
<mvo> just a data-point, I'm ok with that glitch for beta
<mdz> infinity: does usplash_write "TEXT " cause a blank line to be printed?
<mdz> infinity: it would be nice to separate the eject prompt from the other text
<pitti> mdz: yes, it's a trade-off; I hope I can get the real fix for final; it shouldn't be too hard, but too much for beta
<freeflying> bug 40178
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40178 in casper "when boot up livecd with debian-installer/locale=zh_CN , it will generate zh_CN.GB18030 ,but utf-8 shall be the default " [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40178
<pitti> freeflying: hm, that sounds like YAFIYGI
<mdz> pitti: well, that would let us remove the only remaining known bug/caveat...tempting
<Mithrandir> freeflying: then specify which locale you want, not just language and region.
<Mithrandir> pitti: YAFIYGI?
<pitti> Mithrandir: you asked for it, you got it
<freeflying> Mithrandir: zh_CN.UTF-8 is used in dapper deaultly
<pitti> mdz: if you have 30 minutes, I can check out a better theory
<freeflying> Mithrandir: so it will be the same in livecd
<mdz> freeflying: does it DTRT if you select Chinese from the menu?
<mdz> freeflying: you shouldn't need to enter a boot option by hand
<Surak> hello
<Mithrandir> mdz: probably not.  casper does a grep and select the first hit.
<Mithrandir> (from /usr/share/i18n/SUPPORTED)
<pitti> freeflying: use locale=zh_CN.UTF-8 then
<mdz> Mithrandir: but shouldn't gfxboot give you an exact locale spec?
<Surak> Kamion: as monday, dapper's desktop espresso icon disappeared. Is it already back?
<mdz> e.g., zh_CN.UTF-8
<freeflying> pitti: ya, now I'd do as you said for the livecd remarstered fo chinese users
<Kamion> Surak: never seen that bug
<freeflying> as Mithrandir said , casper will use the first one in SUPPORTED
<Mithrandir> mdz: maybe, and I might be messing up with another bug which is that casper and gfxboot conspires to give you de_AT if you select "german".
<freeflying> pitti: why can't I use im-switch in livecd
<pitti> mdz: ok, replacing 'locale-gen' with 'rm -rf /var/lib/locale/$1_*' should do the trick
<Surak> Kamion: I just booted monday's dapper-386-live and there's no espresso icon on desktop. I am in a slow network connection, so I cannot get today's one. I'll open a bug anyway.
<Mithrandir> Surak: that's fixed already.
<mdz> pitti: could you clear the testing table for the new build?
<pitti> mdz: it simply removes the binary locale data instead of asking locale-gen to throw them all away and regenerate the ones we don't want to remove
<mdz> pitti: hmm, wouldn't that leave them in locale.gen?
<pitti> mdz: I can, but shall I prepare a belocs-locales-bin upload for that change?
<mdz> pitti: to be regenerated the next time locale-gen runs?
<Surak> Mithrandir: ok then. What's the package which puts the icon there?
<pitti> mdz: no, since /var/lib/locales/supported.d/<LANG> is a shipped file of the langpacks
<mdz> Surak: casper, but upgrading it won't make the icon appear
<Mithrandir> Surak: casper, but it's already fixed.
<mdz> Surak: just rsync a new image
<pitti> mdz: i. e. it will automatically be removed if you remove language-pack-*-<LANG>
<mdz> pitti: oh, I see
<mdz> pitti: that sounds good then
<pitti> mdz: that was the reason why we eliminated /etc/locale.gen
<Surak> Mithrandir: ok, just to know. Thanks.
<mdz> pitti: go ahead
<pitti> mdz: that locale-gen call ist just done to actually remove the binary locales
<pitti> mdz: ok, I'll clean the page afterwards; I'd like to do some tests with the updated belocs-locales-bin to make damn sure I don't break anything
<mdz> dholbach: is it only me, or is there no link from Testing/Introduction or Testing/Current to the actual test instructions?
<dholbach> mdz: checking and if there's not, I'll add the links
<mdz> pitti: ok, remember to remove it from the known bugs section of DapperBeta once it's confirmed fixed
<pitti> sure, I will
<Surak> Kamion: I saw a discussion about gnome-screensaver being activated during espresso execution. It just happened here, when I was setting timezone.
<ogra> should be fixed a while ago
<mdz> dholbach: I was thinking we could adapt the test plan to use example-content, that's a good quick way to test the major applications
<mdz> dholbach: e.g., rather than open Writer, open one of the oo.o example documents
<dholbach> mdz: right - I'll add that as well
<Mithrandir> Surak: please, if you want to help contributing, get a recent cd; we're working as quickly as we can to stamp out bugs, which means that testing of a two day old cd is not very useful.
* Mithrandir is off to make some dinner.
<Surak> Mithrandir: sorry. As I said before, I'm right now on a dial-up connection. No chance to download it right now.
<Kamion> Surak: I made espresso call gnome-screensaver-command --poke ages ago, so I guess it must be a gnome-screensaver bug that it kicks in when the timezone is changed
<mdz> dholbach,mvo: do you think the test plan shuold use Software Properties rather than Synaptic?
<mvo> mdz: synaptic uses software-properties internal (when available) as repository editor, so it shouldn't matter
<dholbach> mdz: we could try one in the short test suite and one in the long one, does that make sense?
<mdz> mvo: it avoids the synaptic startup dialog and should be simpler to follow
<mdz> dholbach: sure
<dholbach> mdz: ok, i'll add software properties to the long test suite
<mdz> dholbach: I'd do the reverse
<mdz> dholbach: software properties on short, synaptic+install-a-package on long
<dholbach> mdz: ok, I will do that.
<mvo> mdz: right, I agree 
<mdz> short should be quick and easy
<ogra> Kamion, oh, that could be bug 33331 or bug 36303
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 33331 in xscreensaver "moving the clock 1 h forward starts the screensaver" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/33331
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 36303 in gnome-screensaver "Screensaver kicks in just after ntpdate is run" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/36303
<ogra> its on my RC buglist here
<ogra> but your --poke should immediately unblank it again
<Kamion> only after up to 30 seconds
<freeflying> bug 40182
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40182 in casper "environment variables about input method can not be set up in today's livecd" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40182
<fabbione> re
<mgalvin> the launchpad guys said this was not easily possible yet via launchpad directly so might anyone know of a good way to get a rough closed bug count during the dapper dev cycle?
<Keybuk> ah, yet again gnome-screensaver demonstrates an utterly stupid bug that should never have happened :)
<mgalvin> i tought this might be worth noting on DapperBeta to prove the delay was worth the extra time to fix bugs and such
<mgalvin> just a rough number
<Keybuk> in theory the launchpad guys could give you that directly from the database
<Keybuk> SELECT COUNT(*) FROM bugactivity WHERE datachanged >= 'START OF BETA' etc.
<mgalvin> mpt said it would be very intensive atm
<Keybuk> datechanged
<mgalvin> right
<freeflying> pitti: any clue on 40182
<ogra> Keybuk, not really, it just shows that there was no improvement over xss 
<Keybuk> mgalvin: you could mine it with some python and the launchpad ui
<pitti> bug 40182
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40182 in casper "environment variables about input method can not be set up in today's livecd" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40182
<Keybuk> find all the Fixed Released bugs, and grab their Bug Activity pages
<mgalvin> true
<pitti> freeflying: no, sorry, I'm not a casper guru
<freeflying> pitti: heh, sorry
<mgalvin> Keybuk: maybe i will poke them again and see if someone could whip up a quick query, if not i will do some mining if i have time, thnx
<pitti> mdz: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12550 is the necessary change
<Riddell> Kamion: kde espresso should be good to merge now
<Riddell> and upload
<Riddell> you may want to check if the change to partman.py is sane
<pitti> ugh, that change just uncovered another bug, but that's not critical
<mdz> pitti: go for it
<pitti> uploaded
<pitti> now awaiting to be beaten up for breaking the installer :)
* ogra gets fork and knife ready
<ogra> oh, beaten
<ogra> not eaten :)
<pitti> ogra: no, I'm not that fond of cannibalism
<ogra> *g*
<Kamion> Riddell: argh, I just did
<Riddell> aye, sorry for the timing
<robertj> hey all, what do you think of a downstream patch to force gksu to reask on bad password?
<Mithrandir> freeflying: it'd help if you followed the guildelines in http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html since 40182 currently is impossible for me to understand.
<Kamion> Riddell: could you please merge from me first?
<mgalvin> mdz: mind if i move "Known Bugs..." to the bottom since that is not a *major* issue people need to know about (and since there is a fix ready anyway)?
<Riddell> Kamion: I have
<Kamion> mgalvin: it's a major issue for release tracking; the intent AIUI is for it to be gone before beta
<Riddell> it's still "Nothing to do"
<freeflying> Mithrandir: in my remaster livecd for chinese users , we'd add input method , bu after I do s the same way in in stall cd , the environment variables relate with input method can not be set up as it shall be 
<Kamion> Riddell: your branch reverts several of my recent changes
<Kamion> this seems to happen frequently
<Kamion> I'll fix it up, but it's annoying :(
<Kamion> are you sure you're resolving conflicts and committing properly after merging from me?
<Mithrandir> freeflying: So you're asking about how to set some environment variables when you have a customised live cd?
<freeflying> Mithrandir: I can do it maually , but actrually it shall be as the same as install cd do 
<Mithrandir> freeflying: I have no idea what you want to have changed in casper.  You're basically just saying "some environment variables on the live cd are wrong".
<Riddell> Kamion: I can see that at least debian/changelog isn't up to date with what's on yours but I definatly merged it all and bzr doesn't want to merge any more, my bzr log includes " releasing version 0.99.57"
<Kamion> Riddell: did you commit after merging?
<Riddell> yep
<Kamion> seems like a bzr bug, perhaps you could file it if you can figure out what's going wrong
<mdz> has anyone tested a powerpc image lately?
<mdz> i just booted one and GNOME completely shits itself on login
<ogra> only yesterdays edubuntu live 
<ogra> that worked fine
<mdz> notification area, g-s-d, nautilus all fail to start up
<Mithrandir> mdz: pitti tried one earlier today, at least.
<Kamion> Riddell: wouldn't it be neater for get_autopartition_choice to return unicode(...)?
<Kamion> then partman.py wouldn't need to be changed
<Kamion> in a way that's kinda weird
<ogra> mdke, i'll do a ppc edubuntu install asap
<mdz> Mithrandir: elmo did attack this machine with a screwdriver and a knife earlier...
<ogra> s/mdke/mdz
<pitti> mdz: yep, I tested ppc/install ppc/live and live/espresso, were all good for me
<Riddell> Kamion: that broke it in debconf.y
<Riddell> debconf.py
<Mithrandir> mdz: maybe he scared it.
<Kamion> Riddell: scary
<elmo> ok, Canonical data centre is dropping off the net for approx. 10 minutes.  This will drop *.ubuntu.com (and kubuntu, edubuntu, etc.), launchpad.net, of the net for that time
<Kamion> Riddell: OK, I'll merge this for now, but I'd like us to figure out how to sort out the unicode business properly after beta
<Riddell> I agree
<Kamion> random workarounds like this scare me because I doubt I'll be able to reproduce them accurately in new code
<Kamion> or even preserve them when changing code
<mjg59> mdz: What does the clock on the system claim?
<mjg59> (The PPC one)
<Kamion> oh yeah, clock set to 1904 is a common problem
<mjg59> I saw that on an Intel mac last week - the clock claimed to be at 1955
<Kamion> (the Mac OS epoch)
<mjg59> Blacklisting the rtc module "fixed" it
<nomed> i suppose it's a known bug .. but the livecd while shuting down ejects the cd but doesn't switch to tty7 ..
<nomed> is this already in malone ?
<ogra> but you dont have rtc on ppc
<Kamion> it's not an rtc bug AFAIK, the hardware genuinely sometimes gets confused and resets the clock to 1904
<mjg59> config.powerpc:CONFIG_GEN_RTC=m
<ogra> oh, yes its called genrtc here
<Kamion> I could be wrong, I guess
<Mithrandir> nomed: reported a long time ago and it should be fixed in the archives and in the newest live cds published.
<elmo> going down now...
<Kamion> up-to-date xubuntu/live only finished building twenty minutes ago or so
<mdz> Kamion,mjg59: yes, clock was fucked, thanks
<Kamion> mdz: bug 38845 is one report of this, although I'm sure there was a much older one
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 38845 in meta-gnome2 gnome "gnome confused when date not set correctly" [Wishlist,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/38845
<elmo> could we not force the date to be at least 2005 or something?
<nomed> Mithrandir: good
<elmo> 'cos it's only gnome that gets this confused
<carlos> doko: hi, around?
<Kamion> I thought that was what the adjtime file in base-files was meant to help with
<mjg59> Given what fails, I'd guess that bonobo does something mad when the date is before the epoch
<Kamion> Santiago updates it with a reasonable date every so often
<Kamion> although I've no idea what actually uses it
<elmo> this use to bite me all the time when I was using my powerpc (and not butchering it)
<seb128> Kamion: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/gnome-session/+bug/23426
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 23426 in gnome-session "Gnome wont start if date is incorrect." [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
<mjg59> elmo: Or we could fix the bug :)
<ogra> seb128, you could at least confirm it now ;)
<elmo> I don't think falling over a heap when time predates the epoch is entirely unreasonable?
<Kamion> seb128: thanks
<seb128> ogra: I don't confirm something I've not noticed on my box first :p
<ogra> :)
<seb128> ogra: and the only time I tried here it didn't break, but I think ntpdate fixed the clock during startup ...
<doko> carlos: yes
<ogra> it didnt happen ever to me here
<carlos> doko: good news, OO.org is fixed now. For breezy and dapper. 
<ogra> so Kamion might be right that its HW related 
<Kamion> it happens if you run out of battery
<carlos> doko: could you remind me where could I get breezy's .po files?
<Kinnison> mdz: In a bit I'll have finished my current install test (i386, server mode) at that point would it be worthwhile me preparing a system to do breezy->dapper upgrade tests?
<Kamion> to me, anyway
<elmo> Kamion: or when the thermal stuff trips and forcibly shuts the machine down
<ogra> ah, i never had that case yet
<elmo> that's when it always happened to me
<slomo> seb128: i had the gnome-doesn't-start-in-1904 bug too some time ago (until i fixed the broken clock on my ibook by add genrtc to /etc/modules)... i can try to reproduce it with the latest everything tomorrow
<doko> carlos: I thnk it did put them on rookery, but I cannot reach the machine
<carlos> doko: elmo is upgrading the network link atm
<seb128> slomo: would be nice :)
<carlos> doko: that's enough for me I will look at your home when the servers are available again. Thanks
<mdz> Kinnison: yes, it would
<carlos> doko: will you do  new oo.org upload for dapper today?
<doko> carlos: the release team would kill me ...
<dholbach> carlos: we're in Beta freeze, so not likely.
<ogra> not only the relase team
<ogra> (unless i belong to it)
<ogra> :)
<doko> ogra: catch me if you can ;-)
<carlos> oh, I thought it was until today...
* carlos looks for the schedule...
<doko> carlos: the day is looong
<ogra> doko, will do, i'll soon live around the corner ;)
<Kamion> carlos: beta is tomomrrow
<Kamion> tomorrow
<mdz> Kinnison: are you doing the test plan after your installs?
* carlos cannot see the schedule because the servers are down... obvious....
<carlos> :-P
<carlos> ok
<Kamion> ok, one more espresso upload for Riddell (once the datacentre comes back), and then hopefully I'm done on espresso for the day
<ogra> yay
<Kinnison> mdz: I believe I am doing something akin to the short testing plan
<Kinnison> mdz: but I can't confirm 'cos FF crashed
<Kamion> I didn't quite intend there to be quite so many of those uploads today
<mdz> Kamion: current build is looking very good, have tested on 3 architectures now
<Kamion> mdz: I think we do need to fix the resize bug though
<mdz> Kamion: agreed
<mdz> happy to get that and pitti's bugfix in
<Kamion> and Riddell needs those unicode fixes for Kubuntu, apparently
<pitti> \o/
<mdz> I can only hang around for another hour or so today, but will resume in the morning
<Kamion> I expect to be babysitting builds tonight, mostly
<Kamion> I'll do some pre-publishing to releases.u.c if I can 
<mdz> Kamion: if anything expected comes up, please SMS
<mdz> er, unexpected
<Kamion> mdz: will do
<mdz> would be a LOT of sms otherwise
<Kamion> "hi mdz, world still appears to exist"
<mdz> "sun has set"
<mdz> "time passes"
<Kinnison> "you have not been eaten by a grue (we hope)"
<ogra> why is everybody throwing around words my dictionary doesnt know today
<fabbione> ahah
<ogra> eft 
<ogra> grue
<Kinnison>   grue n. [from archaic English verb for `shudder', as with fear]  The
<Kinnison> grue was originated in the game {Zork}
<ogra> ah, thanks
<ogra> thats loong time ago ... 
* Kinnison points ogra at 'dict'
* ogra uses trans-de-en 
<dholbach> or 'leo'
<ogra> both way to overheaded
<dholbach> hu?
<mdz> Kinnison: you know about update-manager -d, yes?
<Kinnison> mdz: yep
<Kinnison> mdz: My dad was telling me about it
<ogra> dholbach, ding doesnt need a dict server ;)
<mdz> Kinnison: does he subscribe to the wiki or something?
<Kinnison> mdz: all he said was that he was doing upgrade testing for mvo
<mdz> oh
<dholbach> ogra: leo is a command line thingie, which looks up in LEO, which is nice for me - and you don't need to run a dict server for that :)
<Kinnison> and he wondered where the jabber server I'd given him an acct on was
* Kinnison renewed that domain and all was well
<ogra> dholbach, leo doesnt use a dict server ? 
<ogra> thats news to me
<thom> ogra: dict doesn't need a local dict server
<ogra> i know
<dholbach> ogra: it uses dict.leo.org
<ogra> dict doesnt help me if i'm at an airport without hotspot ;)
<ogra> ding does ;)
<dholbach> ogra: stop complaining! :)
<ogra> i didnt complain
<ogra> i'd never ever complain... you know me ;)
<CarlFK> Kamion: my current preseed makes the installer loop till it runs out of ram - should that be possible? (as in which needs to be fixxed: installer or my preseed)
<elmo> sorry, the network maintenance is taking longer than expected, we'll be back online as soon as possible
<Kamion> CarlFK: probably shouldn't be possible for it to run out of RAM, but looping isn't necessarily a bug - depends where it is
<CarlFK> it runs out of room for the log file
<Kamion> oh, heh
<CarlFK> somewhere around the partitioning
<Kamion> preseeding partman in particular could easily cause a loop
<CarlFK> I still don't kwow where to look for docs on how to create the preseed file - this is pretty out of date: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hoary/main/installer-i386/current/doc/manual/en/apcs01.html
<elmo> ok, network is back at the DC, sorry for the inconvenience
<Kamion> CarlFK: well s/hoary/breezy/ for a start would be an improvement
<Kamion> CarlFK: current dapper docs are on doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/
<CarlFK> hey, look at that... thanks
<dholbach> Kinnison, Riddell: are you ok with me announcing the HUGDAY with the announce as it is?
<mdz__> dholbach: thanks for the notification
<mdz__> pitti: without your fix, I think langpack removal actually takes longer than copying the files
<dholbach> mdz__: :-)
<pitti> mdz__: indeed :/
<Riddell> dholbach: yeah I think so, I added a link to klaptopdaemon bugs in the wiki page
<dholbach> Riddell: yeah, I noticed - thanks for that.
<dholbach> if mjg59 and Kinnison are happy with it, I send it out.
<seb128> Surak: I closed bug #39002 again since you didn't subscribe to the bug after reopening and doesn't reply to comments on it
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39002 in nautilus "Can't rename _SOME_ icons when they are on destkop." [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39002
<seb128> Surak: feel free to reopen if you have a clear comment on what your issue is with the new version
<Surak> seb128: hum, my mistake
<seb128> Surak: bug is fixed for you?
<dholbach> mdz: I was just testing bluetooth with gnome-phone-manager :)
<Surak> seb128: I have a daily live from monday. Let me update it and I can tell you
<seb128> ok, thank you
<Surak> by the way, where can I find daily live builds via rsync? Ain't find it yet.
* soumyadip is away: coding
<Kamion> Surak: cdimage.ubuntu.com::cdimage/daily-live/current/
<jpatrick> Kamion: kubuntu-artwork-kbfx bug was fixed a while ago
<Kamion> ogra: you have updated edubuntu/live builds
<ogra> oops, recent usplash is heavily broken for me
<ogra> on shutdown
<mdz> works fine here x3
<ogra> amd64 with widescreen 
<Kamion> jpatrick: oh, sorry, feel free to close, I was processing NEW and didn't notice the one at the top
<ogra> the graprics sit on the most right edge
<mdz> nothing graphics-related has changed
<mdz> in ages
<jpatrick> Kamion: already done
<ogra> bootup is fine though
<ogra> it worked yesterday ...
<mdz> Kamion: is this the really truly last espresso upload before the next candidate build?
<Kamion> mdz: I certainly hope so
<Kamion> there are no other beta-relevant issues I know of at present
<mdz> me either
<mdz> so if these fixes take, and there are no regressions, we'll be in good shape in the morning
<Kamion> jpatrick: binaries accepted
<jsgotangco> dholbach: bluetooth with gnome-phone-manager works fine on my side too (dapper) just to let you know (toshiba bluetooth chipset)
<dholbach> jsgotangco: nice.
<dholbach> jsgotangco: the only problem seems to be incoming notifications for SMS and I forwarded that upstream already
<jsgotangco> we just don't have great phone stuff yet though
<jpatrick> anyone know what might be causing this: http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/669545 ?
<dholbach> jsgotangco: there's some wxgtk stuff ammu, gammu, wammu or something - it's deemed to be quite good
<ogra> mdz, looks like it was a one timer, probably caused by the upgrade i just did, usplash looks ok now on reboot
<jsgotangco> wammu
<jsgotangco> it doesnt seem to be packaged too
<ogra> and even if it would... it would pull wxgtk to main if we'd ship it ... *shudder*
<dholbach> jsgotangco: oh it is in debian, it seems, at least gammu
<dholbach> ogra: nah, not for main
<jsgotangco> nahh
<dholbach> ogra: g-phone-m is not in main either
<ogra> ah, fine then
* jsgotangco really wants something like FMA
* ogra has a nice selfwritten tool for his razr v3 to sync data ... i should package it at some point
<thom> jsgotangco: as in sun's Fault Management Arch stuff? yes, it'd be hella useful - somewhat hard to for linux since you'd need a centralised way to manage and present the faults
<HiddenWolf> ogra: please do, i'm going to get one. ;)
<ogra> HiddenWolf, ah, i only know two other motorola users
<ogra> i'll see to get it ready for dapper+1
<HiddenWolf> I'm a fashion victem, can't help it. :)
<jsgotangco> ogra: my wife has it too, the one in hot pink
<ogra> i just needed a new mobile and it was cheap 
* jsgotangco hates the Motorola UI though
<HiddenWolf> "cheap"?
<ogra> (and slim, you should have seen my former one)
<HiddenWolf> ogra: I really don't want to know what you call expensive. 
<ogra> yes, 10 if you sign a new contract ...
<ogra> which i needed anyway
<HiddenWolf> *chuckle* ah. The phone itself is 700 euro.
<ogra> i wouldnt have bought it ...
<ogra> and thats totally offtopic for a pre beta day in #ubuntu-devel :)
<janimo> seb128: if user has no Desktop directory gnome/nautilus creates it right?
<janimo> for new users on first run
<seb128> right
<janimo> seb128: what's your plan re gaim2.0, still waiting on user feedback?
<mdz> seb128: grr, you stole my lock on Testing/Current
<seb128> mdz: ups sorry, I had the page opened for some minutes and didn't notice ...
<seb128> janimo: no plan, when is due gaim2.0.0 ?
<janimo> seb128: dunno, jus saw that you have put up beta2 packages a while ago for testing
<janimo> I thought it was part of a plan :)
<ogra> yes, the plan was to get test results ;)
<dholbach> seb128: it seems that gaim2.0beta3 seems to close more bugs than it opens, no? :-p
<seb128> janimo: beta3
<janimo> the only thing people I know miss from 1.5 that's in 2.0 is login as invisible on yahoo
<mdz> seb128: I broke down espresso into multiple cases; please correct if I didn't get it right (I assumed you erased)
* seb128 slaps dholbach
* dholbach hugs seb128
<seb128> mdz: updated, that was a custom partition install :)
* seb128 hugs dholbach
<Surak> seb128: bug 39002 is still there. Live fully updated. I subscribed to it and I will detail it better, ok?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39002 in nautilus "Can't rename _SOME_ icons when they are on destkop." [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39002
<seb128> Surak: ok
<seb128> I'm away for dinner, bbl
<Surak> ok
<fabbione> meh who did break the wiki table?
* fabbione fixes
<fabbione> there
* Kamion wonders if seb128 was really testing last night's live CD
<Kamion> mdz: should the table be updated for live 20060419?
<Kamion> fabbione: you have updated ubuntu-server images now, BTW
<Tonio_> hi everyone
<Kamion> mdz: we need new install CD builds for (at least) the removal of dasher from desktop, right?
<Kamion> and I guess the splashdown stuff
<fabbione> Kamion: thanks. i was testing server netinstall in the meantime
<fabbione> speaking of which i need to test ppc netinstall
<janimo> Kamion, does espresso create a ~/Desktop dir explicitely?
<Mithrandir> janimo: casper does.
<Mithrandir> Kamion: we do, yes.
<janimo> Mithrandir: ok thanks
<ogra> hmm, no wireless for me on the liveCd
<ogra> i mean not without sudo dhclient eth1
<Mithrandir> ogra: what does /e/n/i look like?
<ogra> no eth1 in there
<ogra> auto eth0
<ogra> iface eth0 dhcp
<ogra> and the usual lo line
<ogra> s/line/lines/
<Mithrandir> what kind of wifi interface?
<ogra> orinoco silver
<ogra> pcmcia
<Mithrandir> oh, the initramfs doesn't do pcmcia.
<ogra> i think seb mentioned the same 
<ogra> he had also to use dhclient to get it working with yesterdays live
<ogra> thats an evil regression, should be fixed for release imho
<Kamion> Mithrandir: ok, it's building
<Mithrandir> ogra: just install nm and it'll dtrt. :-P
<ogra> nope
<ogra> it breaks because of missing dh_iconcache
<ogra> i had NM on the Cd until tonight
<Mithrandir> ogra: uh, network-manager breaks because of missing dh_iconcache?
<ogra> yes, its icon isnt in the cache and you get a weird warning about "ressources not found"
<ogra> very microsoftish
<ogra> aside from that, NM doesnt work with orinoco :)
<dilinger> is there a plan for the next ubuntu conference yet?
<Tonio_> Kamion: reuploading a valid version of knetworkmanager... sorry for the errors on the packaging...
<Burgwork> dilinger, yes, but nothing public yet
<Kamion> Tonio_: no problem
<fabbione> dilinger: sometimes after Dapper release, unknown location
<dilinger> fabbione: not even a continent? :)
<Tonio_> Kamion: that's what happen when I'm working just out of the bed without a coffee... :)
<Burgwork> the rumours say Germany
<dilinger> cool
<ogra> then the rumors dont know about the soccer championship
<Kamion> Burgwork: the rumours are outdated; Germany was the plan before we rescheduled Dapper, but now it clashes badly with the World Cup
<Kamion> i.e. travel would be a nightmare
<ogra> accomodation as well
<fabbione> dilinger: EU
<dholbach> . o O { "Ooooh, sorry Mark - can't be at the BoF tomorrow, I ... hum... um... can't make it." *run* }
<janimo> can the soccer championship be delayed by 6 weeks?
<ogra> janimo, man, why didnt you ask earlier
<dilinger> fabbione: will there be mentos? ;p
<dholbach> janimo: you could try and write a friendly email
<fabbione> dilinger: i hope so :)
<janimo> yeah I thought it may be too late
<ogra> now its a bit late already
<fabbione> dilinger: but i won't be there this time..
<dilinger> fabbione: aw
<ogra> huh ? why that ? 
<Burgwork> Kamion, bloody people and their bloody little balls ;)
<Kamion> Kinnison: help, publishing/cron.daily is crashing
<fabbione> ogra: too close to my wife release...
<Kamion>   File "/srv/launchpad.net/codelines/soyuz-production/scripts/ftpmaster-tools/../../lib/canonical/archivepublisher/pool.py", line 62, in unpoolify
<Kamion>     raise ValueError("Path %s is not in a valid pool form" % path)
<ogra> fabbione, ah, yes, i already thought about the littel sparc admin
<Kamion> path is empty
<ogra> *little
<fabbione> ogra: he is going to be my SAN manager ;)
<ogra> hehe :)
<dholbach> "Live CD install, erase disk (amd64)" looks good
* Kamion SMSes Kinnison
* Kinnison appears
<Kinnison> Kamion: sorry, was reading a doc -> over there :-)
<Kinnison> Kamion: give me a sec
<Kamion> ah, cool, thanks
* Kinnison waits for ssh
<ogra> i'm just seeing espresso for the first time beyond the partitioning (where it crashed the last times i tried) 
<ogra> really impresso
<Kamion> Kinnison: it crashed due to DNS problems (I think) while the DC link was down, and it hasn't managed to run to completion since
<Kamion> ogra: thanks :)
<Kinnison> Kamion: right
<Kinnison> Kamion: it's not currently trying, yes?
<Kamion> indeed not
<Kinnison> try now
<Kamion> running
<Kamion> (output piped to mail lp_archive)
<Kinnison> but not tee?
<Kinnison> :-(
<Kamion> can't tee and pipe to mail at the same time ...
<Kamion> at least not tee to the terminal
<Kamion> need a tee-to-subprocess
<Kinnison> screen 0, foocommand | tee /tmp/magicfifo | mail
<Kinnison> screen 1, cat /tmp/magicfifo
<Kinnison> or similar
<Kinnison> I forget whether that'd work
<Kinnison> if not, tail -f is good
<Kinnison> but anyway
<Kinnison> it hasn't crashed yet?
<Kamion> if I don't have a command to do it, I won't bother in practice :)
<Kamion> not yet
<Kamion> and it's in publish-distro.py
<Kamion> what did you change?
<Kinnison> I deleted the temporary file in the pool which it had been downloading into
<Kinnison> I really ought to add a try: finally: to delete that if something goes wrong
<Kamion> ah, heh
<Kamion> noted for future reference
<Kinnison> unsurprisingly, pool/.temp-download.Ita1sE was not a valid pool filename
<elmo> Kinnison: or not right it in the pool ?
<Kamion> instead of or as well as the try/finally, the publisher probably needs to handle temporary files still existing anyway, in case of a power cut
<elmo> 'cos try/finally isn't going to catch me powering the machine off, f.e.
<Kamion> (for example)
<Kinnison> elmo: it's written into the top level of pool/ in case it's on a different filesystem
<Kinnison> elmo: since rename() doesn't work well across FS boundaries
<elmo> Kinnison: make your own tmp directory in /srv/launchpad.net then
* soumyadip is back (gone 01:56:53)
<doko> Kamion, mdz: still time for uploads for bug fixes for the beta? i.e. bug 39604
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39604 in gnome-cups-manager "gnome-cups-add can take a long time to start up, with no user feedback" [Minor,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39604
<Manny_> hi
<Kinnison> elmo: actually I think making the pool reader notice and clean up the temp files is a better plan
<Manny_> azeem, what would you suggest, I want to create gnome-accessibility-foo (cf. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility/MetaPackage)
* Manny_ wonders whether these meta packages have a chance of going into dapper, btw.
<Kamion> doko: at this stage, that bug doesn't seem beta-critical to me
<elmo> Kinnison: keeping the archive that mirrors can see as consistent as possible is a good thing, but *shrug*
<elmo> (s/mirrors/master mirrors/)
<azeem> Manny_: hrm, -all might make sense, maybe repeat your question here for more input
<Manny_> 20:20:15 <Manny_> I want to build multiple metapackages, a few specific ones and a meta-metapackage. I want to use meta-package-foo, meta-package-bar, meta-package-foobar. Now, should I name the meta metapackage meta-package-all or meta-package?
<Kamion> it's minor - should definitely be fixed for final, but not worth waiting for
<dholbach> Manny_: are there lots of things you'd let those meta packages depend?
<dholbach> Manny_: and quite a bunch of a11y related package turned up in ubuntu-desktop lately
<Kinnison> elmo: If I'm allowed to require at the code level that the misc and pool paths are on the same filesystem, I can make the temps in the misc path before rename()ing it
<ogra> bah, the espresso installed system indeed uses the wrongly detected X resolution of the liveCD
<ogra> how bad
* fabbione -> dinner
<Manny_> dholbach, I'm not sure, but the wiki page I referenced above lists some of them and I think this is VERY useful
<fabbione> Kamion: i might come back later to test the new base-installer..
<Manny_> I recently received an email from a disabled person who couldn't find a linux a11y live cd, having the packages will make the creation of the CD significantly easier
<elmo> Kinnison: I've yet to split up anything in /srv across filesystems after 2 years and n machines, but I'm not really fussed, your way will work with random power cycles too and that's all I really care about
<thom> uh, is it just me that thinks the new update-notifier icon looks remarkably like it wants me to reboot?
<Kinnison> elmo: *nod*
<ogra> thom, i heard that today in here already, so no :)
<dholbach> thom: the world seems split about this icon, but the designer was notified about it being a bit generic.
<thom> heh, fair enough
<ogra> hmm, am i supposed to have drive icons on my desktop ?
<ogra> especially PQSERVICE seems very strange
<HiddenWolf> only if they're removable
<dholbach> Manny_: maybe... yes.
<dholbach> Manny_: gnome-orca and xcursor-themes are in universe - the rest is in main already.
<Manny_> ah, ok
<dholbach> Manny_: most of it should be pulled in by ubuntu-desktop already.
<dholbach> Manny_: x-10 is not packaged yet.
<dholbach> at least not to my knowledge
<HiddenWolf> dholbach: btw, nautilus and gtk filechooser are showing the unmounted usb/flash ports and empty cdrom drives as places. Is that the expected behavior?
<dholbach> HiddenWolf: i never wondered about that - i just checked the filechooser
<ogra> looks like g-v-m or hal
<dholbach> HiddenWolf: it makes sense to me, if you double click on them you can mount them
<ogra> but they are automounted if you plug them in anyway
<HiddenWolf> dholbach: I have a 7:1 hub in my monitor, all those empty things show, which is odd
<dholbach> HiddenWolf: when did that start happening?
<dholbach> phone, brb
<HiddenWolf> dholbach: 2.12 -> 2.13. thought about it when ogra mentioned the drive icons
<jordi> Kamion: should we import oem-config translations, or is that going to be in the d-i template?
<Kamion> ogra: espresso deliberately uses the currently configured X setup, so that you can change it and have it persist
<Manny_> dholbach, maybe you could handle this package creation? I created a little control file, but my rules file obviously isn't correct
<ogra> Kamion, the problem is that none of my widescreen displays are configured correctly, the former liveCD fell back to ask for the resolution since it cant be determined, the new one doesnt do that anymore
<Kamion> jordi: I guess it should be added to debian-installer
<Kamion> ogra: conflicting requirements, I'm afraid
<Kamion> I understand both of them
<jordi> Kamion: should I block it?
<Kamion> jordi: yes please
<ogra> so i'm stuck on 1024x786 on all new laptops here ... only the old ones with regular resolution work
<Kamion> ogra: in order to use the live CD well with your monitor, you presumably have to reconfigure X
<ogra> yep
<Kamion> ogra: if you do, that reconfiguration will be copied to the installed system
<ogra> but its a regression that hits 3/5 laptops over here 
<Kamion> it's not an espresso regression
<ogra> nope
<ogra> its a liveCD regression
<Kamion> right, but one we knew about and decided to accept while doing simplifiedlivecd
<ogra> for me it hits the majority of systems ... 
<ogra> thats all i want to note
<Kamion> perhaps xresprobe can be improved for some of your systems; have you tried that approach?
<Kamion> that approach is really preferable in the medium term
<ogra> it can only use what ddcprobe gives it
<ogra> and on all these laptops ddcprobe is useless
<ogra> the installer usually falls back to ask on all of them
<Kamion> in theory, we could extend xresprobe to know about specific laptop models
<ogra> hmm, true 
<Kamion> there is probably some way to distinguish them, even if it isn't EDID/DDC
<Kamion> and even if it has to be a horrible giant lookup table, that's probably better than nothing
<elmo> dmi info will tell you the make & model on most any laptop
<ogra> sure you can go back to xfree 3.x times and have a monitor database again
<ogra> together with the autodetection that might cover 99%
<Kamion> sometimes the older times had it right
<ogra> yep
<Kamion> the database would be significantly smaller than it used to be
<ogra> but merging both attempts seems to be the best way 
<ogra> yup
<ogra> looking into dexconf should be on dapper+1 goals anyway ...
<wasabi> elmo: I had a failed upload of "gapti" (should be NEW) a few days ago. Infinity mentioned it failed but he didn't have time to find the reason. I received no failure email, so I'm a bit in the dark about what went wrong.
<wasabi> elmo: I can wait for infinity if you don't know. ;)
<neutrinomass> Question: I'm thinking of filing a specification for dapper+2 with regards to the boot process. Basically, it will be about examining alternative boot systems (eg. initNG) and picking out the "best", so that we can speed up the boot process. This must have been discussed before, but I find no similar specification. Does such a spec have a future ?
<ogra> it has a past ... since hoary iirc ... must be somewhere on the wiki 
<ogra> (dont ask me for a name)
<elmo> wasabi: sorry, I don't know why it failed offhand either - there's nothing obviously wrong with  the .changes or the .dsc
<elmo> wasabi: I suggest you file a bug on qprocd (or whatever it's called these days) in launchpad
<wasabi> Ya know. It might be my gpg key. Can you check if the one ya'll have on record has an expiration date? Or tell me where to check.
<elmo> wasabi: your person page in launchpad
<wasabi> k
<elmo> if you had an expiry date and later updated it, LP won't refetch the key that's a known bug
<elmo> but you should file a bug anyway, because you should have gotten a reject notice
<wasabi> I haven't even been following enough to know LP was in charge of this now.
<janimo> neutrinomass: search the wiki there are very generic specs related to that
<neutrinomass> janimo: I found a spec related to speeding up the boot process (which InitNG __dramatically__ does), but not focused on the boot per se but on gnome. Let me search again :)
<janimo> neutrinomass: not sure, but I think it was called fasterboot or something
<janimo> however the view seems to be that initNG does not solve the larger problems of sysvinit, and parallel/faster boot should be just one of the benefits of the new system
<thom> neutrinomass: there were a number of discussions previously, but nothing really filled the needs we had
<janimo> rumor has it there could be a solaris SMF reimlementation
<thom> there's also launchd which people rave about
<thom> (the apple one)
<janimo> and both of them use evil licences
* thom has bad flashbacks to UDU
* tseng flashes back to throwing mentos at thom
<ogra> heh
<jdub> janimo: there is nothing major wrong with the CDDL
<thom> tseng: *g*
<jdub> janimo: APSL is a different story
<janimo> jdub: why are people talking about reimplementing SMF instead of just porting it?
<thom> VIBE OUT!
<wasabi> Yeah I'd like to see solaris' tool.
<wasabi> I did some reading on it's arch. It sounds solid.
<ogra> feel the vibe :)
<jdub> janimo: because 'people' are stupid
<neutrinomass> janimo: Yes. A really far-fetched thing would be to create our own boot system, based on exactly what we need. The paralellism is absolutely essential though ...
<wasabi> I doubt there's any want or need to create our own. :)
<thom> neutrinomass: is it? it doesn't buy you much; we played with it
<jdub> janimo: (that said, part of SMF relies on a kernel feature, which would have to be reimplemented, but it's not entirely necessary)
* neutrinomass apologises for being "stupid", no experience with SMF
<janimo> jdub: that;s cool. I thought sun was evil and purpposely not going with GPL-friendly lic
<jdub> neutrinomass: do some basic testing - parallelism doesn't get you as much as you think
<neutrinomass> thom: It is. I used it on Gentoo and it halved my boot time..
<wasabi> It's not parallelism, it's accounting, that is liked.
<wasabi> imo. ;0
<jdub> janimo: they purposefully did not use the GPL, but that does not entirely result in 'evil'
<thom> neutrinomass: then the gentoo boot process is very suboptimal as it stands, IME
<neutrinomass> wasabi: initNG is GPL, isn't it ?
<janimo> jdub:  Keybuk said something about him working a SMF reimpl . was he not serious?
<janimo> could keybuk not be serious? :)
<jdub> neutrinomass: no, what halved your boot time was a horrorshow "init but without doing what init does" joke
<jdub> janimo: he's more fond of launchd
<neutrinomass> thom: Actually gentoo boot pretty fast (which is to be expected, since you only start exactly what you want). AFAIK they have written their own initscripts, and a "stock" installation (base+gnome) boots faster than dapper :(
* janimo remembers trying to start such an init system about a year ago, a few days before hearing of initNG.
<neutrinomass> jdub: Okay, it wasn't half. It was 27 seconds to KDE desktop vs. 44 seconds, with the kernel taking 7 seconds before init kicked in. 
<neutrinomass> janimo: Heh, I was thinking of it too :)
<janimo> problem is too many of us think, and nobody does :)
<thom> janimo: better than the alternative, which is 300 different boot processes, all with their authors whining about theirs being the best, and none actually working :-)
<Kamion> neutrinomass: the process of getting Scott to go over the random scattergun boot process in breezy and optimising it saved similar amounts, though
<janimo> :)
<thom> yeah, the savings from mataro and similar processes in breezy were quite insane
<janimo> still getting rid ov evm/raid would still be welcome
<janimo> initedby default not totally of course
<thom> janimo: a lot of people need it; if it bothers you, just delete the symlinks from /etc/rc*.d and they won't come back
<thom> janimo: the problem with stuff like that is they're very machine/install specific optimisations
* dilinger waves at thom
<janimo> a lot more people don;t need it though probably 100:1 :)
<neutrinomass> Kamion: Sorry, I'm not familiar with that. Sounds like a great improvement but still there's some work to be done, right ? :)
<thom> dilinger: dude :-)
<janimo> and they are far more likely to be able to enable it than the casual user
<janimo> anyway
<Kamion> neutrinomass: we expect people talking about this sort of stuff at least to be running dapper somewhere :)
<neutrinomass> thom: Won't people who use RAID know how to enable it ?
<neutrinomass> Kamion: I am on Dapper. I just joined the community though, so I didn't go through 5.10 :)
* neutrinomass switched from gentoo to dapper a while ago
<thom> neutrinomass: *shrug*; the argument is really "should we install this kind of stuff by default" - as currently we do, it has to be enabled
<Kamion> neutrinomass: we're not going to regress out-of-the-box support under any circumstances; whatever happens, stuff like LVM and RAID needs to work when you ask the installer to do that
<Kamion> (well, not deliberately)
<Kamion> neutrinomass: recent> ah, ok
<j^> neuralis why would one want to know how to use RAID?
<neutrinomass> thom: There was some discussion on the mailing list on this, although it doesn't seem like it's headed somewhere.
<janimo> wow, oowriter start/new file/type a few letters/save/close cycle on a 64M machine, in well under 15 minutes
<neutrinomass> j^: People who use RAID know what it is right? They are also a minority. From my really humble point of view, if somebody wants RAID it won't be hard to enable it and the 19/20 people who don't use RAID and don't know how to disable it would benefit.
<ogra> j^, hey, i once learnt it out of curiosity, later that knowledge got me a job ... knowledege pays sometimes ;)
<thom> neutrinomass: i think your numbers are wrong, and i also think that a lot more people use it because it just works than you think
<neutrinomass> Kamion: Well, I have no RAID controller, nor am I doing software RAID but all the RAID stuff started here by default.
<zul> janimo: it might be wise not to run openoffice on that machine..
<janimo> zul, irt was just curiosity/xubuntu test install :)
<zul> hehe
<neutrinomass> thom: You may be right about my numbers. I've just installed initng and will try taking some numbers for ubuntu ....
<jdub> neutrinomass: it really doesn't matter - the raid script just starts mdadm, which goes into swap (we used to not start it at all if it wasn't required - i wonder why that has changed)
<janimo> I have no other reasons for using oo even on larger machines :)
<j^> ogra i also figured that out at some point, but if we apply that thinking to ubuntu we could also let people configure the kernel and compile it by default
<Kamion> neutrinomass: it should be possible to make it take up as-close-as-possible to zero time if RAID isn't configured, rather than your first resort being to make things work less well for even a minority of users
<Kamion> that should never be the first resort :)
<janimo> neutrinomass: I also think your numbers are wrong. I am inclined to say 19:2000
<ogra> j^, we let them, nobody will stop them ;)
<j^> ogra by default
<neutrinomass> Kamion: Yes, you are right about breaking stuff for people. It should be handled by the installer though (I'll maybe file a bug for dapper+1). If you've got RAID, use it, else don't start anything.
<Kamion> neutrinomass: but if we have to disable it by default, the installer would have to be able to enable it by default again in the event that you configure RAID in the installer (however, that does make it more difficult to install without RAID and then set up RAID later, which is not all that uncommon and shouldn't be intentionally made more difficult)
<jdub> neutrinomass: it's so close to that right now it doesn't matter
<Kamion> neutrinomass: what I'm saying is that "don't start anything [that takes meaningful time] " doesn't have to mean "don't run the init script"
<jdub> neutrinomass: mdadm is tiny, and will go into swap if it must
<jdub> Kamion: was the md check taken out due to bugs, or...?
<Kamion> if it's taking lots of time while RAID isn't configured, then that's the bug
<Kamion> jdub: no idea, I'm afraid
<neutrinomass> jdub: You're probably right, I don't have numbers for mdadm. I'm on a slow machine though, so our perception of time may be different ...
<jdub> maybe it was just lost in synch :)
<Kamion> check the changelog I guess
<jdub> i think it was lost in the 1.9.0 sync
<j^> i have a lib installed in /usr/lib and /usr/local/lib, lets call it liboil; now im linking an app that links a lib that links liboil, if i remove the copy from /usr/lib it works without specificly linking, but if the lib is in /usr/lib, gcc prefers /usr/lib over /usr/local/lib and fails - as oposed to ldd, which shows the one in /usr/local/lib
<j^> where can i file a bug?
<ogra> the bugtracker would be a first guess from my side ...
<ogra> :)
<j^> ogra yes, but which package, gcc, ld, ldd
<j^> or Keybuk for the pach to libtool to remove specific linking 
<ogra> i'd try libc6 which holds ldconfig
* neutrinomass leaves to compare stock/initng boot times
<janimo> are new CD builds planned for u/kubuntu?
<Kamion> Ubuntu install is done as far as I know; Kubuntu install is in progress; live builds are waiting for espresso binaries to arrive
<Kamion> I have a matrix of necessary builds that I'm working through
<janimo> so all lives will get rebuilt?
<fabbione> Kamion: sorry.. did you also rebuild -server with the new baseinstaller?
<ogra> edubuntu i386 install seems good, i386/amd64 live as well
<Kamion> fabbione: no, it's in the queue
<Kamion> janimo: yes
<fabbione> Kamion: ok thanks
<Kamion> fabbione: and needs to wait for base-installer binaries
<fabbione> Kamion: i tought you did publish them already..
<Kamion> fabbione: that was source
<fabbione> oh cranky
<fabbione> thanks
<Kamion> ogra: I don't *believe* Edubuntu install needs a rebuild (there's been a newer partman-auto since, but that's about it), but shout if it does
<Kamion> ogra: Edubuntu live needs to be rebuilt though
<ogra> Kamion, i only tested i386 install so far, its not finished yet but looks very good
<ogra> and live wouldnt need it from a functional POv, only for consistency with ubuntu/kubuntu
<neutrinomass> Ok. The changes were not as dramatic as they were on gentoo: 37s vs 47s
<Kamion> ogra: no, it does need it, 0.99.57 has an important partitioning fix
<ogra> ah, k
<ogra> worked fine here, but then i install on production machines, so i dont let it autoresize
<Kamion> also the locales speedup
<ogra> ah, yeah, that one i noticed
<ogra> (the slowness)
<mvo> Kamion: is bug #39062 already fixed in the current live-cd? it looks like I still get this issue here
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39062 in espresso "espresso autopartition fails after resize option" [Normal,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39062
<janimo> Kamion, can you queue a xubuntu install build for early tomorrow or later today?
<janimo> after latest xfce4-utils is in the archive
<janimo> LP says it's been built for a while
<janimo> ok it's in the archive now, so anytime is ok. thanks
<ogra> GAR GAR GAR !!!!
* mvo hugs ogra
<ogra> the firefox homepage just overwrites about edubuntu !!!
<ogra> what a crap
<ogra> damned
<ajmitch> ogra?
<ogra> the edubuntu FF page (which is our most important doc in dapper, since it links to all the postinst docs) gets overwritten by some strange ubuntu doc
<ajmitch> nasty
<ogra> yep
<ogra> who decided that, where is specced how i can fix it ...
<ogra> additionally that ubuntu doc has no css at all ... looks very bad
<Kamion> mvo: no, current ubuntu/live predates that fix
<Kamion> janimo: all CD builds are on my list
<janimo> ok
<mvo> so we get a new live-build before beta? a new install-cd build as well?
<janimo> ogra, is that not the usual startpage alternative stuff? did something changed recently?
<Kamion> mvo: I don't think ubuntu/install needs to be rebuilt, but all live CDs will be
<ogra> seems it did change recently
<janimo> ah, but you have both ubuntu and edubuntu providing alternatives in the same install right?
<ogra> and after the desaster in breezy i was promised by at least 3 ppl that i would get notified if anything with that page might happen that could affect edubuntu
<ogra> but apparently nobody sent a mail to edubuntu-devel or me ....
<ogra> does anybody know a way how to get rid of that ? 
<Burgwork> ogra, talk to dholbach or mdke_ as they maintain the ubuntu-docs package, which contains the about page
<ogra> hrm
<dholbach> better mdke_
<ogra> isnt there a wikipage or something for xubuntu and edubuntu how to be able to keep their startpages ? 
<Kamion> ogra: the edubuntu alternatives trick probably doesn't mesh well with i18n
<ogra> for edubuntu that doc is really important
<Kamion> ogra: iwj sent a mail about the i18n work, I believe
<ogra> hrm
* ogra digs
<Kamion> maybe not to edubuntu-devel though
<mvo> hm, did the oem install change from breezy to dapper? or do I just not remember how to use it :)
<Kamion> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFirefoxStartPageTranslation
<janimo> ogra, indeed for xubuntu is broken but only if using non-default locale, andonly because we have no translations yet
<mvo> (on first-boot that is)
<Kamion> mvo: it's changed, may be broken ...
<Kamion> mvo: you need to run oem-config-prepare before it'll activate
<Kamion> (that's changed from breezy)
<Kamion> ogra: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperFirefoxStartPageTranslation
<Kamion> er, I said that :)
<ogra> yes :)
<mvo> Kamion: thanks, testing now
<janimo> good night all
<ogra> hmm, so there is no way to disable i18n :/
<Kamion> ogra: better to get those pages translated; I'd talk to iwj about the details
<Kamion> (when he's around)
<ogra> i see how it works
<ogra> but what do i do with locales where its not translated ? they will automatically see the ubuntu page and wont find the post install notes (i.e. essential for ltsp)
<ogra> thats not a good spec if i cant disable it ...
<ogra> actually the only mail to devel regarding the startup page seems to be from apr. 11th
<Kamion> talk to iwj, or send a mail, or something
<ogra> will do ...
<mvo> Kamion: oem mode works :) changing the language seems to restart the oem-config application (and takes a bit) but I guess this is normal
<ogra> Kamion, apart from that, edubuntu i386 is gold for both install and live
<ogra> (apart from the pondering partman change indeed)
<Kamion> mvo: it's a bug, but I skipped dealing with it pre-beta because there's an obvious workaround
<Kamion> mvo: thanks for the test
<Riddell> Kamion: can you rebuild the kubuntu live fs?  unless there's something else to be waited on
<Kamion> Riddell: it's in my queue
<Riddell> great
<Kamion> ok, let's forestall the rest of them :)
<Kamion> the queue consists of ubuntu/live (fs building), ubuntu/live/ports, ubuntu/dvd, kubuntu/live, kubuntu/live/ports, kubuntu/dvd, edubuntu/live, edubuntu/dvd, xubuntu/install (building), xubuntu/live, livecd-base
<Riddell> Kamion: the OEM mode needs removed from the kubuntu CDs at some point, is that your department?
<Kamion> Riddell: due to lack of KDE frontend, you mean?
<Riddell> yes
<mdke_> dholbach, hmm?
<dholbach> mdke_: ogra and Burgwork were thinking about the aboutubuntu page
<mdke_> what's up with it?
<ogra> mdke, it breaks derivatives ff pages
<mdke> ogra, the localisation?
<ogra> yes
<ogra> there seems no way to disable it
<mdke> ogra, if you remember, we discussed whether it would be better to have a translated Ubuntu page or an ed/kubuntu page in a foreign language, and that the former was preferable
<ogra> mdke, that wasnt discussed with me
<mdke> I'm fairly sure that I made a point of asking your opinion too
<ogra> in any case it breaks my most important doc and you cant disable it
<mdke> that's correct.
<ogra> (even if you'd have asked me, which i definately dont remember, i'd never have agreed to such a plan)
<mdke> so what are we going to do about it?
<ogra> and i think xubuntu isnt happy either
<mdke> xubuntu prefers english for people who don't speak english over a translated ubuntu document?
<ogra> mdke, no idea
<mdke> ok.
<mdke> xubuntu prefers english for people who don't speak english over a translated ubuntu document?
<mdke> sorry
<ogra> but i doubt they have enough translators as edubuntu
<mdke> whoops
<mdke> well, even if translation was an option for the derivatives, it would still mean doing alternatives on each translation, which is not a realistic option
<mdke> maybe Ian can think of a way to disable it for you
<ogra> and since the info on that doc is essential in edubuntu, i'd indeed prefer the english version over a "welcome to ubuntu dapper" with completely broken css
<ogra> i'll talk to ian, we cant change it for beta anyway and the final doc isnt in edubuntu yet
<Kamion> I think some solution that's better than alternatives needs to be found
<mdke> ok.
<ogra> the only thing that really bothers me is that everybody said that wont happen again and we'll shout ...
<ogra> Kamion, yep
<mdke> Kamion, if you can think of anything, you'd be my number 1 fan. I'd be very unhappy if we had to bin those translations
<mdke> hang on
<mdke> I'd be your, naturally
<ogra> :)
<Kamion> I don't have time myself, but I'm sure Ian can once he realises that it's more of an issue than he originally thought
<mdke> infinity might have some ideas too, we discussed it together quite a lot
<thom> run an apache and serve the right language with multiviews? 
* thom ducks
<mdke> heh
<ogra> hmm, would be an option for edubuntu as server distro, but what do the others ? :)
<ajmitch> ogra: you mean every desktop user shouldn't have apache? :)
<Kamion> Riddell: done, although post-beta unless kubuntu/install needs to be rebuilt for some other reason
<Riddell> thanks. I've not had any complains about it so I don't think anyone actually tried it so should be fine for beta
<thom> ajmitch: well, i might be slightly biased but i think everyone should have apache ;-)
<ajmitch> thom: just something else for the users to complain about :)
<thom> who could possibly complain about apache
<ogra> caudium fetishists ?
<ajmitch> hi pitti 
<pitti> hello again
<pitti> how does it look?
<mdke> ogra, shall I mail Ian about this?
<Kamion> about halfway through the build matrix
<ogra> mdke, that'd be nice, but i'd do it as well after beta
<mdke> ogra, np, I don't have to release any operating systems this evening
* mdke checks schedule
<ogra> me neither :) 
<ogra> tomorrow is the day
<mdke> oh, well I'm free tomorrow too
<mdke> lucky
<ogra> and i only have to watch progressbars finishing the copying ...
<ogra> pitti, i had drive icons on my desktop on a recent install ...
<ogra> PQSERVICE seemed very strange 
<pitti> ogra: with espresso?
<ogra> yep
<ogra> o have installed over it already, but i can try to reproduce if you need info 
<ogra> s/o/i
<pitti> ogra: espresso sets up spare partitions automatically, much like d-i, but you can't configure them
<ogra> then it does that randomly
<pitti> ogra: do you mean bug 40114?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40114 in espresso "does not offer /media mount point setup" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40114
<ogra> i have 4 partitions on that disk
<ogra> it showed only one on the dektop
<ogra> and the PQSERVICE device, whatever that is
<ogra> pitti, seems to be related but not the same
<kmon> ogra: The PQSERVICE device is a hidden fat partition used in many laptops for recovering the pc to defaults, AFAIK
<ogra> ah, i did know about that partition, but not that its named like that... funny that you dont see it from fdisk
<Kamion> yeah, sounds like the same bug according to that
<Kamion> I'll look at it after beta
<kmon> ogra: I have an acer laptop with that partition. I think other manufactures use the same recovering software, with the same partition naming scheme... 
<Kamion> mjg59 filed an os-prober patch to let us recognise those partitions, which will help too
<ogra> yes, thats also an acer
<whiprush> jdub: we need an eft topic for the fridge.
<mjg59> I don't think I had one for the Acer ones
<kmon> ogra: then maybe it's only acer.... dunno
<mjg59> Kamion: One issue is that several of them need to be "unhidden" before booting
<mjg59> grub can do that, but os-prober doesn't provide that information
<Kamion> we can add new fields if we need to, or add another program like linux-boot-prober to help
<ajmitch> kmon: seems likely (I also have one)
<mdke_> ogra, who else shall I cc: this mail to? the more people who might think of a solution to the alternatives problem, the better, i guess
<pitti> Kamion: just for planning, will you spin new live images still tonight, or tomorrow morning?
<Kamion> pitti: tonight
<pitti> or not at all?
<ogra> mdke_, janimo in any case
<kmon> ajmitch: do you own an acer laptop?
<Kamion> ubuntu/live is building at the moment; the others will follow
<ajmitch> kmon: yes
<Kamion> they take an hour or so each, unfortunately, due to ports arches
<pitti> Kamion: ok, then it might be worth staying awake for a bit to test them
<kmon> ajmitch: google reports many acer users... so maybe it's only on acer laptops
<mdke_> ogra, email address? janimo shows nothing in launchpad
<Kamion> pitti: ubuntu/live won't be much longer, I hope
<pitti> cool
<Kamion> mdke_: jani in launchpad
<mdke_> Kamion, merci
<ogra> ggrrrr
<ogra> now evo crashes constantly
<dholbach> ogra: what are you trying to do?
* mvo stays up a bit longer to wait for the images then
<ogra> dholbach, i wanted to look up janimos address 
<ogra> now evo starts and crashes instantly
<dholbach> ogra: it might help to get a backtrace with evolution-dbg and evolution-data-server-dbg installed
<ogra> dholbach, installing ...
<ogra> but it started out of the blue 
<ogra> very weird
<mdke_> ogra, mailed
<ogra> thanks
<dholbach> CAMEL_DEBUG=all evolution   might be usefull to investigate further as well
<ogra> (cant read it though ...)
<ogra> dholbach, will do
<mdke_> haha, np
<dholbach> ogra: super.
<dholbach> i'll carry my dog outside and then crash into bed, I'm terribly tired.
<mdke_> nighty nighty
<ogra> hey, she has legs ...
<ogra> let her walk on her own ;)
<dholbach> a broken claw... and only down the 4 stairs :)
<ogra> oh
<ogra> damned
<ogra> you didnt tell 
<dholbach> not to worry - she'll be fine on the weekend :)
<dholbach> i was at the vet yesterday
<ogra> yup, i saw that
<dholbach> But I'll tell her your regards. :-)
<ogra> wanted to ask, but forgot about it
<ogra> great
<ogra> and greetings from fred
<dholbach> I will do that. :-)
* dholbach hugs ogra
<Kamion> Riddell: can't remember if I mentioned, but there are updated kubuntu/install images; kubuntu/live fs images are building at the moment
<Riddell> Kamion: thanks
<seb128> Kamion: I've a bug with espresso, I picked the "make space on hdan and install" partitionner option, it hit a "Taille trop faible" (Size too small) error dialog. After than picking any option (like manual partitioning) and clicking on next was doing the same, previous works but next is blocked on all screens back with that message
<Kamion> ubuntu/live images updated
<seb128> Kamion: not sure if that's clear ... anything useful I can get it from it? is that known?
<Kamion> seb128: known, fixed in the updated images that literally *just* finished building
<seb128> (before I close and try a new install again)
<seb128> cool
* seb128 rsync
<Kamion> if you apt-get update; apt-get install espresso espresso-frontend-gtk espresso-ubuntu-{doc,artwork} on the CD you've got, that should do too
<seb128> ah, nice
<Riddell> should I be worried about the uninstallable openoffice.org2 packages?  I know they're only to being in openoffice.org packages
<Kamion> seb128: bug 39062
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39062 in espresso "espresso autopartition fails after resize option" [Normal,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39062
<Kamion> Riddell: it's an lp problem, it isn't cleaning up arch: any .debs that have been superseded by arch: all
<ogra> dholbach, seb128, bug 40236 for you
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40236 in evolution "evolution crashes out of the blue and stays in a crasher loop" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40236
<dholbach> ogra: can you add that as a comment?
<ogra> what ? 
<dholbach> ogra: the backtrace
<ogra> the backtrace ? 
<ogra> ugh
<dholbach> click on the file and you see why
<ogra> ok
<ogra> yep, it will just produce a huge comment
<dholbach> and I meant to run      CAMEL_DEBUG=all evolution   and pipe it into a logfile :-)
<dholbach> that's fine
<dholbach> that backtrace looks small-ish :)
<ogra> and i doubt the readbilkity is better in the three column view, i'll upload it to rookery
<seb128> partman-basicfilesystems
<seb128> ups
<seb128> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=338451
<Kamion> Riddell: (but shouldn't be a real problem anyway)
<Ubugtu> Gnome bug 338451 in Shell "evolution startup and crash" [Critical,New]  
<dholbach> wow, seb128!
<seb128> same bt
<Riddell> Kamion: yeah, I'll just blame launchpad then :)
<seb128> grumpf
<ogra> sounds similar as well
<seb128> apt-get install on the liveCD complains that /var/cache/debconf/config.dat is locked by another process while trying to update espresso
<Kamion> seb128: do you still have espresso running?
<Kamion> or some leftover processes maybe
<dholbach> ogra: I subscribed to the upstream bug.
<Kamion> partman doesn't always die properly, annoyingly
<dholbach> ogra: so I'll let you know
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/evo.bt
<seb128> Kamion: yeah, seems so
<Kamion> or indeed espresso subprocesses in general - they mostly get cleaned up, but not always if the parent crashes
<Kamion> seb128: subprocesses?
<ogra> i'll add it to the bug if you still need it
<dholbach> ogra: ok, thanks
<dholbach> seb128: thanks
<ogra> yes, thanks seb128 :)
<seb128> Kamion: espresso gtkui, debconf-communcate -fnoninteractive espresso etc ... I'm cleaning :)
<seb128> k, upgrade done
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
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<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<Kamion> seb128: gtkui suggests that the frontend window was still running
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<mdke> Seveas,
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<seb128> Kamion: I might have forced it to go away with the window manager bar since it was looping on the error dialog
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<Seveas> mdke, I have no ops here
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<mdke> Seveas, ah, can you get some freenode love?
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<seb128> Kamion: is that known than the first screen has not "next" working by default? it looks like selected but pressing enter doesn't work
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
<heytt> #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai #fazlamesai
* HedgeMage peeks in
<Seveas> <-- heytt (n=people@c-68-32-63-72.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has left #ubuntu-devel
<Seveas> --> HedgeMage (i=HedgeMag@freenode/staff/HedgeMage) has joined #ubuntu-devel
<mdke> HedgeMage, just left, thanks
<HedgeMage> hehe
<dholbach> I can't imagine that #fazlamesai is so exciting
<dholbach> but Burgwork joined there, so maybe he can tell us, what the fuss is all about :)
<Kamion> seb128: that button does have has_default set; not quite sure why it's not activating on Enter
<Burgwork> nothing exciting
<ogra> Burgwork, `
<shackan> for the first time I've seen I don't know where the ignore button in xchat is
<Burgwork> a language I didn't understand, looks like they support linux users
<Burgwork> if fazlamesai.net == #fazlamesai
<Burgwork> the /topic there disavows any knowledge of the spammers
<ogra> thats turkish
<seb128> Kamion: confirmed that the partman bug is fixed
<Kamion> seb128: great, thanks
<seb128> Kamion: but I don't get why it says the partition has not enough space though
<Kamion> good to have confirmation of that, I'd cowboy-tested it only
<seb128> it has 14.21GB free
<Kamion> seb128: the default slider position is wrong; that's part of the same bug
<seb128> slider is on 12
<Kamion> you might need to up it to 13, if that was the default you got after going forward once
<seb128> (it was not on first try I think, it looked like it changed after hitting the error)
<Kamion> I think there's a rounding error
<Burgwork> dholbach, you been spying on me again?
<Kamion> but I only noticed it today, so haven't fixed it yet
<dholbach> Burgwork: sure... I'm your most passionate stalker
<ogra> Burgwork, http://www.fazlamesai.net/int/ btw
<azeem> people with a .comcast.net IP were spamming #debian in a similar way last night
<Burgwork> ogra, mm, just saw that, thanks
<dholbach> Burgwork: I checked /who #fazlamesai to see how many people there were etc
<seb128> Kamion: 14.21Go free according to manual partitioning screen
<Kamion> seb128: how big's the partition?
<seb128> 16
<seb128> 16.19G
#ubuntu-devel 2006-04-25
<Burgwork> dholbach, I love you, but I am more into women ;)
<seb128> 1.97G used, 14.21G free
<dholbach> pffft :)
<Kamion> that's 12.2% used
<Kamion> so rounding down produces 12%, which is too small
<seb128> ah, that's a %
<Kamion> sorry, yeah
<seb128> sorry I was think that was 12G
<seb128> thinking
<Kamion> the resize UI is pretty grotty, I know - hope to be able to improve that before final
<Kamion> it's pretty much just a straight frontend onto partman-auto at the moment
<Burgwork> Kamion, was there not going to be  "delete these partitions and instlal ubuntu in the blank space" option, or did I miss it?
<seb128> k, setting the slider to 76 makes it happy :)
<Kamion> Burgwork: it's in the spec, but the spec is not implemented yet
<Kamion> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuExpress/PartitioningTool
<robertj> is the sidebar art in espresso yet?
<Kamion> robertj: no
<Kamion> hasn't been contributed yet
<robertj> contributed? I thought that was comissioned
<Kamion> either, I'm not up to speed on the details
<Kamion> from my point of view it's the same thing, somebody needs to send me it :)
<robertj> I still think we need to replace it with you-dont-know-jack commercials
<ogra> Kamion, edubuntu amd64 live/install are good as well
<Kamion> ogra: live will be rebuilt; thanks for the install test. are you recording these on the wiki somewhere?
<ogra> nope
<Kamion> I can't keep track of them all myself :)
<Kamion> might be a good idea to start
<Kamion> DVD builds officially take too damned long
<thom> heh
<Riddell> so do DVD downloads
<ogra> heh
<ogra> cant you cat the isos together and rsync that ? 
<Kamion> (I'm only bothering because it's something to do while waiting for live filesystems to build)
<ogra> probably not
<Kamion> ogra: helps a bit, but there's still a lot to download after that
<Kamion> the DVDs have supported as well, remember
<ogra> yes, main is grown 
<Kamion> although fortunately not all of main
<ajmitch> even downloading a server iso takes too long for me 
<Kamion> elmo: did I ever ask you to archive off flight-3 and flight-4 images from little:~cjwatson/old-images/ to tape?
<seb128> hum
<seb128> "Hard disk boot sector invalid"
<seb128> not glop
<seb128> after an installing with autoresize
<Kamion> not heard of that before
<Kamion> boot into the live CD, try chrooting and reinstalling grub?
<lifeless> Kamion: whos the person to ask for UVE's at the moment ?>
<seb128> CD booting ...
<lifeless> Kamion: paramiko 1.5.4 fixes a criticial bug for bzr 0.8
<Kamion> lifeless: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
<Kamion> instructions there
<lifeless> thanks
<lifeless> great, got it
<seb128> hum
<seb128> "sudo cfdisk /dev/hda" writes "FATAL ERROR: Bad logical partition 6: enlarged logical partitions overlap"
<mdke> mjg59, gah, screen locking is disabled by default? even when resuming from suspends?
<seb128> and "Press any key to exit cfdisk"
<seb128> I don't like that
<mdke> mjg59, and even when using the lock screen function key? :-(
<Kamion> parted might be able to sort it out
<seb128> fdisk lists them
<Kamion> if cfdisk/fdisk can't
<seb128> hda5 4688  4864
<seb128> hda6 1087  4567
<seb128> ups
<seb128> hda6 4087  4567
<Kamion> doesn't look particularly overlapping to me
<seb128> hda7  4087  4567
<Kamion> oh
<seb128> grumpf, let me try again
<seb128> hda5 4688  4864
<seb128> hda6 4594  4687
<seb128> hda7 4087 4567
<mjg59> mdke: Yes
<seb128> Kamion: is that a standard way to fix that?
<Kamion> well, those are non-overlapping
<Kamion> seb128: I've never heard of this problem before
<mjg59> mdke: I'm not massively keen on the ease of discoverability, but it's fairly consistent
<seb128> right, they are not, maybe that's just cfdisk on crack
<mdke> mjg59, are you happy with that? It seems to me that if I suspend my machine, it should be physically secure
<Kamion> your fdisk results don't seem particularly broken to me
<Kamion> try parted and see what it says
<mdke> mjg59, plus, the function key should do what it says on the tin
<mjg59> mdke: If you're concerned about physical security, then you want the screensaver to lock your screen under all circumstances
<mdke> mjg59, yes, I do.
<mdke> but _especially_ in those cases
<mjg59> So in that case, the argument is over the default for that setting?
<mdke> sure
<seb128> Kamion: looks fine, maybe the bios doesn't like hda7 being bootable (it used to be hda3)
<mjg59> Right
<mjg59> I think it's reasonable to bring that up
<mdke> mjg59, because sometimes the screensaver kicks in while I'm at my computer, I'm happy for it not to be locked. But if I suspend, that's another matter
<mjg59> What was the default for xscreensaver?
<seb128> Kamion: should primary or extended partitions make a difference for that?
<Kamion> seb128: there was that old grub-installer bug with bootable partitions that we never really sorted out
<Kamion> seb128: it wasn't the same thing, but I seem to remember it bit your laptop that time too
<mdke> mjg59, in breezy, it locks, at least when I suspend/use the function keys. not sure about when the screensaver kicks in normally
<seb128> yeah, I thought to it, that's why I look to the boot flag
<seb128> but that bug was "no partition is set as bootable" IIRC
<Kamion> seb128: yeah, it was
<Kamion> seb128: if you set the active partition back to hda3, does it work then?
<mdke> mjg59, personally, I think there is a reasonable argument for distinguishing the two situations (screensaver/lockscreen+suspend). Dunno if that's technically possible or not though
<seb128> trying
<ogra> mjg59, the default was always to not lock
<mjg59> mdke: It's technically possible, though not trivially
<ogra> but the lock item from the panel always locks ...
<mdke> the lock item from the panel works, but my function key doesn't
<ogra> probably suspend/resume should do the same
<seb128> Kamion: that was it
<mjg59> In any case, it's a gnome-power-manager issue rather than an acpi-support one
<Kamion> Riddell: new kubuntu/live images up for you
<Kamion> seb128: ok, I officially dislike your laptop's BIOS :)
<seb128> Kamion: let's call that a bios bug? Or is a primary partition supposed to be used for that?
<seb128> Kamion: me too :p
<mdke> mjg59, ok, you already reassigned the bug there. Can I reopen it?
<mjg59> mdke: Fancy bringing it up on ubuntu-devel?
<mdke> mjg59, yes. Anything to do with gpm makes me excited
<Kamion> seb128: I can see the argument that it ought to be a primary partition if possible; this is why partman's recipes make / or /boot (as applicable) active and primary
<pitti> seb128: in ancient times there was a BIOS limitation that it could only boot from a cylinder < 1024 or sth. like that; could that be it?
<mjg59> Getting some impression of how people feel would be helpful
<Kamion> pitti: I'm fairly sure this is different
<seb128> pitti: could be
<Kamion> may be wrong
<mdke> mjg59, I'll post now or latest in the morning, thanks
<seb128> pitti: <seb128> hda7 4087 4567
<seb128> pitti: that was the bootable one
<pitti> my laptop happily boots from /dev/hda7 :)
<pitti> (which is where I'm installing right now)
<seb128> my craptop doesn't :p
<Kamion> seb128: we should probably arrange for stuff not to mess with an existing active partition, since all that really matters is that there's *an* active partition, not which one it is
* Kamion to-dos that
<seb128> Kamion: right. Is there a bug about that? Maybe still the "not boot flag set"?
<seb128> or should I open one?
<Kamion> same bug would do, I think; I don't have the number to hand I'm afraid
* Kamion hunts briefly
<seb128> no need of the number, knowing that it is somewhere will do for now ;)
<Kamion> bug 14244, I believe
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 14244 in partman-auto "Automatic partitioning reset boot flag in DOS partition table?" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/14244
* seb128 subscribes to that one
<Burgwork> mjg59, we might want to document what the laptop defaults are somewhere, for better and more consistent testing
<jdong> a good number of desktops/laptops using the Intel GMA adapters require the 915resolution hack to go above 640x480....
<jdong> what do we plan to do about that?
<mdke> mjg59, mailed
<Burgwork> mjg59, ie, when the battery icon is displayed and the scroll down the side, etc.
<mjg59> Burgwork: Ok
<mdke> about that battery icon...
<mdke> can we ship with gpm set to 'never' and with the gnome applet battery monitor? It's a million times better
<mjg59> mdke: Again, bring it up on the mailing list
<mdke> mjg59, great.
* mjg59 heads to bed
<mdke> night, me too
<Riddell> Kamion: I don't see any more kubuntu live images
<pitti> yay, langpack removal in espresso is really fast now
<pitti> Kamion: oh, you remove language-support-en, too?
<pitti> Kamion: s/you/espresso/ of course
<Kamion> Riddell: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/kubuntu/daily-live/20060419.1/
<Kamion> pitti: shouldn't do ...
<Kamion> pitti: what's in /var/lib/espresso/apt-installed?
<pitti> Kamion: did for me on ppc/live espresso install
<pitti> Kamion: oops, sorry, I already booted into the system
<Kamion> d'oh
<pitti> Kamion: but I can reproduce it again if you need
<pitti> oh, crap, the installed espresso system ended up with no language packs installed at all
<pitti> which also means that there is no defined locale (but LANG is set to de_DE.UTF-8)
<Kamion> le huh?
<Kamion> not seen that happen before ...
<Kamion> what language/country did you pick?
<pitti> Kamion: German/Germany/American keyboard
<pitti> strange, that worked fine in my last attempt AFAIR
<pitti> Kamion: shall I do the test install again and stay in the live system after espresso?
<pitti> s/?/ finished?/
<Kamion> localechooser is supposed to set localechooser/supported-locales as you go forward from the language screen, and then the install script picks up that question and decides which language packs to keep from that
<Kamion> pitti: if that's not too inconvenient, yes please; also run with ESPRESSO_DEBUG=1 set
<pitti> Kamion: erm, a second; I did that installation without network, can this be the reason?
<Kamion> I think I'll fix the password thing and then make debug mode the default until just before the release candidate
<pitti> there is no German langpack on the live CD AFAIR
<Kamion> pitti: it's not impossible, although it surprises me
<pitti> so, nothing to copy
<Kamion> en should be kept, though, regardless
<pitti> right, that's another thing (we do it for install, so we should do it for live)
<Kamion> we do
<Kamion> your case is unusual, AFAIK
<pitti> alright, I do the same installation again if you want me to
<Kamion> we use the same logic as the installer, although some of it is by necessity reimplemented rather than reused; but the logic is the same
<pitti> Kamion: hm, so how do we solve this? would it be practical to call 'locale-gen <locale>' for the selected default locale in espresso?
<Kamion> pitti: we already do ...
<pitti> Kamion: we can't fix the absence of langpacks in a networkless install, but at least the locale should be valid
<pitti> hmm, /me scratches his head them
<Kamion> oh, we don't copy the generated locale over, I guess
<Kamion> pitti: the German install I did earlier today has language-{pack,support}-{en,de} installed; admittedly it was networked, but I really don't think that should make a difference for en
<jcole> are there any plans to update to update dri/drm in ubuntu dapper? it's more than 2 years old
<pitti> Kamion: ok, so we have two bugs here: removing l-{pack,support}-en and the missing locale
<pitti> live system booted, starting espresso now
<Kamion> pitti: right
<jcole> err, remove one "to update"
<pitti> Kamion: the former doesn't seem like a beta blocker to me, but the latter is a bit more serious IMHO
<Kamion> ah, it wasn't a problem before because the language pack removal called locale-gen
<pitti> right
<pitti> sorry for that breakage :/
<Kamion> I could just copy the contents of /usr/lib/locale/, right?
<pitti> yes, that will work fine
<pitti> locale-gen does more or less that, create the stuff in that dir
<pitti> Kamion: everything in there is usually too much, though (you'll end up with all locales present on the live CD, which will make these languages appear in the gdm languager chooser and such)
<pitti> Kamion: so, copying /usr/lib/locale/<langcode>_* seems like the right thing to me
<pitti> the installed langpacks will care for all additional language specific locales 
<Kamion> won't removing the languages remove those files though?
<Kamion> so if I copy the whole lot before removing the language packs ...
<pitti> true, that will happen
<Kamion> just going for the simplest possible coe
<Kamion> code
<pitti> indeed
<pitti> so, not having any locale at all was a result of not having any German language pack installed at any time, and the removal of the English ones
* Kamion may need to prepare for an all-nighter at this rate :-/
<pitti> alright, espresso is at the file system copy stage
<pitti> Kamion: last entry wrt. localechooser/supported-locales is 'de_DE.UTF-8, en_US.UTF-8', that looks fine
<Kamion> pitti: there should be a /usr/lib/locale in the read-only file system, which therefore should be copied along with everything else
<Kamion> pitti: so AFAICT the bug is only that all the locales get removed
<pitti> so it seems that something in the installation does call locale-gen, so that the locales are purged and rebuilt
<pitti> Kamion: oh, sorry, I suck. The German langpacks *are* on the CD and installed in the livefs
<pitti> Kamion: so right, it seems that all langpacks get removed, since none are installed in the final system any more
<mdke> jdub, is planet missing a favicon? tiny thing but it doesn't appear on my rss reader
<pitti> Kamion: so, it's removing all langpacks including en and de as we speak
<Kamion> pitti: /var/lib/espresso/apt-installed?
<Kamion> pitti: and save /var/cache/debconf/ too, if you would
<pitti> Kamion: apt-installed doesn't contain any language* if you look for that
<Kamion> debconf-show espresso | grep language-packs
<Kamion> (hopefully empty)
<Kamion> well, empty answers
<pitti> Kamion: it yields nothing at all
<Kamion> debconf-show espresso | grep supported-locales
<pitti> Kamion: do you need templates.dat?
<wasabi> launchpad needs blogs.
<Kamion> pitti: no
<Kamion> just config.dat really
<Kamion> or more immediately, the above debconf-show
<pitti> ^ that's empty
<Kamion> !
<pitti> | grep language yields some bits
<pitti> http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/tmp/
<Kamion> ok, can you put /var/log/installer/espresso somewhere? that should help
<pitti> -> espresso config.dat apt-installed
<pitti> espresso is the verbose log
<Kamion> not there
<hyperactivecrond> newt should be interesting....
<Kamion> pitti: ^--
<pitti> Kamion: argh, sorry, rookery:tmp != rookery:public_html/tmp; reload, please
<hyperactivecrond> good luck with that guys
<hyperactivecrond> eek eft not newt
<Keybuk> hyperactivecrond: right now, and for the next five weeks, dapper is still our concern
<hyperactivecrond> Keybuk: yes, i'm aware of tha
<hyperactivecrond> t
<whiprush> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/initramfs-tools/+bug/32123
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 32123 in initramfs-tools "initramfs not generated correctly on upgrade to Dapper" [Major,Needs info]  
<whiprush> hey guys, I ran into this today
<whiprush> can someone point me in the right direction to get the info where it needs to go?
* Keybuk points you at infinity 
<whiprush> should I just attach my generated initrd?
<Keybuk> yes
<whiprush> ok
<whiprush> Keybuk: does -386 or -686 matter?
<whiprush> or should I do both?
<Keybuk> whichever broke
<Keybuk> both if unsure
<Kamion> pitti: oh, I see the problem, it's specific to the non-networked case
<Kamion> if the apt cache update fails then we never mark the packages as to be installed
<pitti> Kamion: do you need anything else from me?
<Kamion> pitti: nope, thanks
<Kamion> well, maybe a test
<Kamion> just a minute
<pitti> sure, no problem
<Beuno> sorry to interrupt, but does anyone have any ideawhen the dapper beta ISO will be hitting the ftps?
<pitti> Beuno: at some time tomorrow
<Beuno> is everything ready to go or is there lst minute work going on?
<Kamion> pitti: could you grab http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/espresso/ubuntu/scripts/install.py, install it as /usr/share/espresso/install.py, and try a networkless install?
<Kamion> pitti: I'm trying a networked install now
<Kamion> Beuno: still some last-minute stuff
<Beuno> great, thanks  :D
<Kamion> I'm not sure we've ever had the immense good fortune to have no showstoppers
<robertj> I can't believe the naming of EdgyEft is a frontpage announcement
<robertj> (on slashdot)
<LaserJock> heh, why not ;-)
<pitti> Kamion: doing now; should I reboot before, or just install a second time?
<Kamion> pitti: just installing a second time should be fine
* pitti cranks up espresso
<pitti> Kamion: btw, 'ubiquity' didn't make it for beta? :)
<Kamion> pitti: I preferred to do slightly more urgent work ;)
<Kamion> I'll rename it afterwards
<pitti> wise, wise
<pitti> well, it doesn't appear at any prominent place anya
<pitti> anyway, even
<Kamion> right, that was intentional to make the rename a bit more painless
<Kamion> bugger, a crash
<Kamion> pitti: you might as well stop ...
<pitti> ok
* Kamion fixes
<Kamion> I'm testing myself first this time, ETA 3 minutes or so
<Kamion> pitti: fixed version pushed, please try it now if you could
<pitti> of course
<pitti> Kamion: you updated the working tree, too?
<Kamion> basic fix is to record the packages in apt-install before updating the apt cache
<pitti> (certainly, but just making sure :) )
<Kamion> pitti: yes
<Kamion> pitti: it's working for me, so I'm preparing a release; just waiting for your ack
<Kamion> then I'll run the publisher through by hand and get livefses started
<pitti> at partitioning step now
<pitti> this laptop isn't the fastest one around :(
<Kamion> no kidding ;)
<pitti> although it seems to be much slower now at the second install, but maybe that's just me
* Kamion races pitti with vmware
<pitti> f)#)$, I managed to kill espresso, I have to reboot
<Kamion> ok, don't worry, I think I have an adequate setup here
<pitti> ok, great
<Kamion> thanks for catching this tonight, rather than tomorrow :-)
<jdong> how's the beta freeze going, btw?
<pitti> . o O { I should have followed my gf's advice to not switch on the computer after the training :) }
<Kamion> 01:18 < Kamion> Beuno: still some last-minute stuff
<Kamion> 01:18 < Kamion> I'm not sure we've ever had the immense good fortune to have no showstoppers
<pitti> Kamion: thanks for fixing it
<Kamion> jdong: ^--
<Beuno> :D
<Beuno> that does it then?
<Kamion> pitti: my wife's not happy with me being up half the night, but them's the breaks ...
<pitti> Kamion: hm, just booted the live a second time and now usplash is failing
<jdong> Kamion: thanks for the update. good luck, everyone
<Kamion> pitti: that I can't help you with
<pitti> it seems I'm out of luck today :)
<pitti> no, don't worry, just a race condition somewhere I guess
<Kamion> Beuno: I'm not going to answer that kind of question, I'm afraid :)
<Beuno> lol
<Beuno> gotto tell you I've been using ubuntu since warty and I'm extremely impressed with dapper
<Beuno> you guys have done an amazing job
<Kamion> thanks
<Beuno> it seems it's getting pretty mainstream
<jdong> I completely agree, Beuno 
<jdong> some of my best friends, who are absolute Windows worshippers, are having Dapper dual-boots
<Beuno> every tech blog you go there is some not-necesseraly-significant news on ubuntu
<Kamion> ugh, way too many apt/wget timeouts on an install with the ethernet cable (virtually) pulled out
<jdong> and our out-of-the-box support is unmatched
<Beuno> yes, especially on laptops
<Beuno> it's amazing how fast laptops got supported
<jdong> just a tidbit of good news, we boot on all the core duo laptops I found at a local PC shop
<jdong> of course, no ipw3945 support yet
<jdong> but we're getting there
<Beuno> with 2.6.15-20?
<jdong> Beuno: benc has been working hard on it
<jdong> Beuno: his git tree already has ipw3945 merged in; I'm assuming that after beta freeze lifts, we'll get it uploaded
<Beuno> nice, now all I have to do is get a core duo laptop
<Beuno> :)
<jdong> sound and AGP work great on the core duos
<jdong> we have backported kernel patches from git for that
* Kamion uploads espresso 0.99.59; now all I have to do is shepherd it through the enormous build chain ...
<jdong> so with 3945, we will support core duos fully OOTB
<jdong> Kamion: would this be the 4th or 5th espresso today?
<Kamion> jdong: fifth, if you count "day" as "since I last slept"
<jdong> :)
<jdong> maybe a longer beta freeze is needed next time around?
<Kamion> wouldn't have made any difference
<Kamion> the problem, if any, was scheduling it right after the Easter holidays
<Kamion> but fundamentally it was just catching bugs that hadn't been caught before, not ones that had been newly introduced
<jdong> yeah, I've been noticing how stuffed LP is with bugs :)
<jdong> and oh boy, espresso....
<jdong> it's come such a long way
<jdong> just... wow... you guys never fail to amaze me
<Beuno> does anyone have an estimate on the current ubuntu user base?
* jdong 's reiser4 kernel just FTBFS'd
<jdong> I suppose _that's_ why it's marked for 2.6.16 :)
<infinity> whiprush: That initramfs-tools upgrade bug should have been fixed as of yesterday...
<wasabi__> infinity: =)
<wasabi__> infinity: Part of it was my key. I learned how to update it in LP. It still rejects though. Says I don't have access.
<wasabi__> Still on the MOTU team. ;)
<whiprush> infinity: just hit it today about 2 hours ago, I've attached my initrd.
<Riddell> hmm, I need to do an upload of kubuntu-default-settings
<whiprush> infinity: it's my test box so it's just sitting there if you need more info
<infinity> whiprush: Which version of initramfs-tools was installed by your upgrade?
<whiprush> looking
<ogra> ok, edubuntu isos are all ok, i'm off to bed
<infinity> wasabi__: Err, yeah, you can't upload without being in "ubuntu-dev" or "ubuntu-core-dev"
<wasabi__> There a process for joining those? Nobody ever told me. ;0
<infinity> wasabi__: If you were an approved MOTU uploader before the switch to LP, you should already be in the "ubuntu-dev" group, but you may have been overlooked.
<wasabi__> Yeah, I was approved previously. I have quite a few uploads under my belt. ;)
<whiprush> infinity: 0.40ubuntu29
<pitti> Kamion: ok, I did a complete install and a boot into the new system; confirmed that it works well now; thanks a lot!
<pitti> so, off to some sleep, finally
<pitti> good night!
<whiprush> nite pitti 
<tseng> bye pitti 
<Riddell> infinity: can you make new lifefs and CD builds once kubuntu-default-settings_6.06-10 hits the archives?
<Riddell> or Kamion if he's still awake
<infinity> Yeah, I can do that.
<infinity> You need install CDs too, or just liveCDs?
<Riddell> thanks
<Riddell> install too
<infinity> Mmkay.
<infinity> whiprush: And you're sure you didn't upgrade to that version of initramfs-tools after the dist-upgrade? :/
<whiprush> nope
<infinity> Damn.
<whiprush> mirror out of sync maybe?
* infinity grabs your image to look at it.
<infinity> whiprush: Do you have any custom kernel-img.conf setup, like telling it not to create symlinks, for instance?
<whiprush> no, a week old breezy install.
<whiprush> no customizations, other than some desktop apps.
<infinity> So, /boot/initrd.img is a symlink to the 2.6.15-20-686 initrd?
<whiprush> ah, interesting
<whiprush> that symlink doesn't exist.
<whiprush> cd ..
<whiprush> it's in / though
<infinity> Same thing.  It's fine in /
<whiprush> ok
<infinity> Either should do.
<BenC> FYI, ipw3945 is in the next kernel upload
<BenC> just in case anyone is wondering...it's in git now
<BenC> infinity: any coordination I need to do with you on lrm?
<infinity> BenC: I suspect we want the daemon in LRM, right?
<infinity> BenC: And if the driver starts it automagically, then you need to know the propsed path for said daemon.
<BenC> I'm not sure it does
<BenC> I have the driver, and ucode in the kernel
<BenC> I'll check up on the daemon
<infinity> The original plan was to ship the daemon in LRM.
<infinity> And because it seems to be tied to kernel driver version (eww), I was going to version the daemon binary, so you can have several installed side-by-side.
<wasabi__> infinity: Who do I have to petition to be added to the group?
<infinity> wasabi__: Just try to add yourself to the group in LP, your request will get mailed to the group admins (which appears to be the Tech Board)
<wasabi__> Cool. This LP stuff is odd. It's like an object wiki thing
<wasabi__> Never seen quite a beast.
<Kamion> infinity: can you let me do it? I'm coordinating espresso binaries through lp
<Kamion> and generally have a big list in front of me :)
<infinity> Kamion: Hah.  Go nuts.
<infinity> Kamion: It certainly won't hurt my feelings to go do one of any number of other things I have on my little list.
<Kamion> heh
<Kamion> infinity: anything that makes hppa/ia64/sparc live fs builds go faster would be real nice
<infinity> Kamion: Faster machines?
<infinity> Kamion: They're also out of space currently.  Cleaning that up.
<infinity> Kamion: Do we really need derivative livecds built on those arches?
<Kamion> infinity: no, I can skip them on edubuntu and xubuntu; but kubuntu does have ports CDs
<Kamion> infinity: I only taught my script today how to build just some architectures
* Kamion teaches it more sensible per-project defaults now
<Beuno> Not Found         The requested URL /releases/dapper/ was not found on this server.
<Beuno> heh
<Beuno> that's dimage.ubuntu.com
<Beuno> cdimage.ubuntu.com
<Riddell> Kamion: interesting news, I may have tracked down the kde espresso kdialog crash for real
<Riddell> Kamion: I managed to get gdb to give me a backtrace and it crashes if the program name is over a certain length
<infinity> Kamion: Okay, I've purged those arches of edubuntu and xubuntu for now, if you just build ubuntu and kubuntu on them, they SHOULD survive for a little while, until I can get some better storage solutions for everyone.
<elmo> Beuno: should be fixed now, thanks
<Beuno> yeah, was a small glitch
<Beuno> I guess those servers will be going through hell in a while
<Kamion> Riddell: what's the program name in this context?
<Riddell> Kamion: the human readable name passed to KAboutData
<Kamion> so "Kubuntu Espresso"?
<Riddell> change "Kubuntu Espresso" to "Installer" or anything under 12 characters and it stops crashing
<Kamion> "espresso" should be removed everywhere, btw
<Kamion> in human-readable strings
<infinity> I love how that implies that programmers aren't human.
<whiprush> infinity: I am heading to bed, I'll keep the machine busted, if you need more info just ask in the bug.
<Kamion> Riddell: are you pretty sure that this'll be the last change you need?
<infinity> whiprush: Yeah, cool.  Thanks.
<infinity> whiprush: Actually, wait.
<infinity> whiprush: Before you go...
<shawn_home> hmm, bleeding edge edgy eft, throw in GNU libc 2.4 :)
<whiprush> infinity: k
<infinity> whiprush: How much free space do you have on /tmp and /boot?
<shawn_home> is there a channel for discussion on edgy eft stuff? or this is the place?
<infinity> whiprush: Maybe you're seeing a different bug, and we're both assuming it's the one you're following up to.
<Kamion> Riddell: if so, I can throw it in now
<shawn_home> <- lives on the edge, almost falling off it
<whiprush> infinity: I have it all as /, 64gb free
<infinity> whiprush: Okay, cool.  Thanks.
<Kamion> shawn_home: there isn't; this may be the place later, but we're trying to prepare a beta release at the moment, and after that will be trying to prepare dapper
<Riddell> Kamion: yes, I'm sure enough, please do
<infinity> shawn_home: There's no where to discuss it yet, since we're busy doing a beta release for dapper.
<shawn_home> ok :)
<Kamion> -        about=KAboutData("kubuntu-espresso","Kubuntu Espresso","0.1","Live CD Installer for Kubuntu",KAboutData.License_GPL,"(c) 2006 Canonical Ltd", "http://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuEspresso", "jriddell@ubuntu.com")
<Kamion> +        about=KAboutData("kubuntu-espresso","Installer","0.1","Live CD Installer for Kubuntu",KAboutData.License_GPL,"(c) 2006 Canonical Ltd", "http://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuEspresso", "jriddell@ubuntu.com")
<whiprush> infinity: as a matter of interest, a friend of mine ran into the same problem 2 nights ago, but the fix in the bug worked from him, so when I got the same error I assumed that's what happened to me.
<Riddell> Kamion: perfect
<Kamion> ok, uploading, will roll into the next by-hand publisher run
<infinity> whiprush: Oh, wait.  Bah.  I didn't read your comment very carefully...
<infinity> whiprush: You regenerated the initrd and it STILL failed?
<whiprush> yep.
<infinity> whiprush: Then you've got a different bug than this one.
<whiprush> dpkg-reconfigure linux-image-whatever regenerates that right?
<Riddell> Kamion: kubuntu-default-settings will need published too
<whiprush> because that's what I did
<infinity> whiprush: It should, yes.
<Kamion> Riddell: yep, it's in accepted so will be
<whiprush> when that didn't work I did a mkinitramfs /boot/2.6-whatever 2.6-whatever
<infinity> whiprush: So, I may need more info on what exactly happens on boot, etc.
<Riddell> Kamion: great, thanks
* Riddell beds
<Kamion> Riddell: thanks for that
<whiprush> infinity: the splash hangs on mounting root fs
<whiprush> after 20 seconds or so, it says waiting on root fs.
<infinity> whiprush: Boot with no splash and no quiet, see what sort of errors you see, or if there's an obvious issue (like, you disk is detected as /dev/hda, but you're trying to mount /dev/sda, etc)
<whiprush> then after about 5 minutes, it spits me to a busybox shell.
<whiprush> ok, trying now.
<infinity> whiprush: This is definitely not the same bug.  These people were all experiencing a bug where the initrd was broken during the upgrade, but would work fine if re-generated (due to my stellar logic in update-initramfs that would reconfigure the initrd for the running kernel instead of the newly-installed kernel..)
<infinity> That bug should be fixed.
<infinity> Yours, however, smells like a "Scott broke it" thing. :)
<whiprush> yeah, mine broke on upgrade, but regenerating didn't fix it.
<whiprush> I pass nosplash and noquiet as kernel arguments right?
<infinity> whiprush: Well, you just remove "splash" and "quiet" from the current command line, but yeah.
<whiprush> k
* infinity begins to think that every computer in the world should have a serial console hooked up to another machine, so people can just log in and do this reboot testing themselves.
<whiprush> Begin: Waiting for root file system ... ...
<lifeless> whiprush: you got evms ?
<whiprush> paging up shows the ide drives as hdg and hdh
<whiprush> they should be hdc and hdd
<whiprush> lifeless: not afaik
<lifeless> whiprush: ah, because I have a fault with evms startup
<infinity> Okay, if they're coming up with the wrong driver lettering, you get to file a bug on udev and/or the kernel, argue with BenC and Keybuk over whose bug it is (depending on if it's a driver bug, or a load order bug), and then get it resolved there.
<whiprush> ok, after showing the Begin: ... stuff, it times out and goes to busybox
<infinity> whiprush: Definitely isn't the bug you followed up to, though.
<infinity> s/driver lettering/drive lettering/
<whiprush> infinity: understood.
<whiprush> is there a way I can determine wether it's udev or the kernel?
<whiprush> or do I just pick one?
<lifeless> infinity: if evms_activate isn't ?
<infinity> lifeless: Erm, what?
<infinity> whiprush: Pick udev.  Scott's spent a lot of time tearing apart device detection stuff, so he should be able to quickly divine if it's actually a kernel bug.
<lifeless> my fault is that evms_activate isn't succesfully running in the initramfs. Once it times out, I just have to do 'evms_activate', then ctrl-D
<infinity> whiprush: Or, you can assign it to both udev and linux-source-2.6.15, and let it shake out that way.
<infinity> lifeless: Hrm, do running it by hand works?  That's curious.
<whiprush> ok, will do so.
<infinity> lifeless: s/do/so/
<whiprush> infinity: thanks for the help
<lifeless> infinity: indeed
<infinity> lifeless: Guess it's running at the wrong time, or hitting a race of some sort?
<lifeless> bug 34209
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 34209 in linux-source-2.6.15 linux-image-2.6.15-17-k7 "2.6.15-17-k7 doesn't boot on Athlon 2000+" [Major,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/34209
<lifeless> is where I added my notes.
<infinity> lifeless: Can you fiddle with evms's initramfs scripts in /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts and see if you can come up with something that works?
<lifeless> infinity: if I wasn't trying furiously to get bzr ready for dapper too - sure.
<infinity> Fair point.  If only I had an evms setup. ;)
* infinity will have to create one and do some testing later.
<lifeless> as it is, this is my server, so if I'm going to do 1001 reboots to debug something, I'd really much rather do it with someone that knows the initramfs stuff backwards paired with me
<lifeless> (online is fine)
<lifeless> because I'm completely unproductive while that box is down.
<wasabi__> <--- evms setup
<infinity> wasabi__: And does it work for you in dapper?
<wasabi__> yeah, recently.
<wasabi__> There were a few upgrades that hosed it.
<wasabi__> evms in local-top used to be missing a PREREQ on udev.
<wasabi__> in fact it still is.
<wasabi__> ???
<infinity> Yeah, evms hasn't changes for ages...
<infinity> s/changes/changed/
<wasabi__> Heh. So there's one issue.
<wasabi__> evms runs before udev.
<wasabi__> (alphabetically)
<wasabi__> evms_activate sees no devices.
<lifeless> wasabi__: that would my bug
<lifeless> infinity: evms needs device-mapper loaded to work
<infinity> lifeless: That may be your problem.  Can you pop 'PREREQ="udev"' at the top of /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/local-top/evms, then update-initramfs -u -k `uname -r`
<infinity> lifeless: And see if that makes it all better?
<lifeless> infinity: when I get home
<lifeless> infinity: I'm at mpools right now
<wasabi__> I reported this as a bug.
<wasabi__> Never followed up with it though.
<infinity> wasabi__: No, no one ever follow up, and some bugs kinda fall by the wayside.
* infinity needs to clone himself.
<whiprush> infinity: mind if I quote you in the bug?
<infinity> I think I'll clone Kamion too, for good measure.  We could use more of him.
<infinity> whiprush: GO hard.
<whiprush> heh
<wasabi__> Hmm. Apparently I didn't file it as a bug.
<wasabi__> I fixed it on all 4 of my boxes though haha
<whiprush> infinity: reported.
<infinity> Danke.
<whiprush> infinity: the gui dist-upgrade tool was pretty badass though. :)
<wasabi__> Woh!
<wasabi__> netowrk manager now works!
<wasabi__> kudos!
<lifeless> infinity: do you have lvm ?
<infinity> lifeless: Nope.  I'm very vanilla on my dapper system.
<shawn_home> hrm, im hoping NetworkManager has a CLI so if you *dont* have Xorg running, you can still, you know, start a network? :)
<shawn_home> if not, we're turning our backs on CLI world
<wasabi__> I always wished NM would give up it's "only used for desktop machines or laptops" goal.
<Kamion> well, we're not embracing network-manager for dapper anyway
<wasabi__> It has use for servers too.
<Kamion> it's in main now, but not installed by default
<wasabi__> OS X and Windows don't have two ways to configure machines, one for servers and one for desktops;.
<shawn_home> Im concerned everyone is rushing to the GUI craze while forgetting Linux/UNIX were founded on CLI tools
<shawn_home> and if i cant start eth0 without X we have a *problem*
<Kyral> start eth0
<Kyral> easy
<Kyral> sudo ifconfig eth0 up && sudo dhclient eth0
<Kyral> game set match :D
<shawn_home> ifconfig is dead, use iproute2 :)
<Kyral> wazzat?
<Kyral> and ifconfig has always worked for me :D
<shawn_home> net-tools is so dead: http://linux-net.osdl.org/index.php/Iproute2
<shawn_home> "Most network configuration manuals still refer to ifconfig as network configuration tool, but that's wrong, because ifconfig is known to behave inadequately in modern network environment. Its usage should be deprecated"
<shawn_home> net-tools (from which ifconfig comes from) is 'dead'
<shawn_home> Edgy should switch away from the old userspace 
<shawn_home> ip addr add 1.2.3.4 dev eth0
<shawn_home> mind you, iproute2 doesn't display route info very nice as the route command does (though if people start hacking on iproute2 it could be done)
<Kamion> iproute in general suffers from poor usability
<shawn_home> true, its more 'ciscoish' like
<Chipzz> dunnow if that even matters
<shawn_home> or bsd like
<Chipzz> but you're going to alienate *a lot* of users coming from other distro's (or other UNIX'es for that matter)
<Kyral> One of my personal goals for Edgy is to introduce tools that will make lowlevel tweaking a lot easier
<Kamion> also system administrators do not have infinite time to spend learning new tools; it's unlikely we'll drop sysadmin-brain-compatibility with Unix for a long time
<Kyral> basically for us CLI junkies
<Chipzz> even SGI has it, be it in /usr/etc :P
<Chipzz> s/SGI/IRIX/
<Kamion> though I'd have no problem with moving more to iproute under the hood
<infinity> Just because ifconfig sucks for complex setups is no reason to drop it anyway.  It plays nicely with iproute2, so there's no issue having both installed.
<shawn_home> heh
<infinity> But I agree that ifupdown (or some whizzbang new setup people want to move to, whatever) should use iproute2 under the hood.
<Chipzz> yeah
<shawn_home> sure you can have both installed
<Kyral> I really wanna see something for the easy management of initscripts
<shawn_home> I am glad to see more userspace is now GNU the author of CrackLib has told me 3.0 is GPL now (the new author)
<shawn_home> and it has a configure script!
<Kyral> I mean I love the rc.conf in Arch where you list the Daemons you want starting. If you wanna stop one from starting you just remove it from the list
* Kamion idly notes that we've had iproute in our base system since warty
<Kamion> and it's not had a new upstream version packaged since hoary
<Chipzz> Kyral: you mean you find one giant config file actually *user-friendly*?
<shawn_home> yeah i have it on my dapper snapshot
<Kyral> Chipzz, it isn't a one gaint config file
<shawn_home> but nobody is using it :)
<Kyral> but its quite nice for the initial bootup
<Chipzz> sure reminds me of *BSD
<shawn_home> its there, but not used i dont think
<Kamion> although that's actually a forgotten merge, apparently
<Kyral> Chipzz, have you used Arch before?
<LaserJock> how does Gentoo do init scripts? I always found it easy to use
<Kamion> or, no, a merge that came in after UVF
<Chipzz> Kyral: no, I don't care for source-based crap :P
<Kyral> Chipzz, it isn't
<shawn_home> we have to becareful though with initscripts, theres a historical standard we can't break overnight
<shawn_home> think Vmware and other tools..
<shawn_home> non-free even 
<Kyral> Chipzz, its Binary based, though it makes it VERY easy to rebuild from source
<Chipzz> hrrrm ok
<Chipzz> anyway I haven't
<Kyral> One thing that currently miffs me about Ubuntu is how many unneeded services startup
<shawn_home> like RAID on my laptop? :)
<Kyral> I mean I don't have LVM, RAID, or Bluetooth, so why are they starting or even installed?
<Chipzz> Kyral: evms and lvm for example? :)
<shawn_home> heh
<Kyral> Surely we can use the HW-Detection to make the decisions
<shawn_home> we should make them all conditional
<shawn_home> Kyral, depends how you do the early init bootup
<Chipzz> Kyral: worse; wtf can't I remove them?
<Chipzz> (ok you can remove bluetooth)
<Kyral> or ppp
<Kamion> no, we deliberately install that stuff unconditionally so that e.g. when you get a bluetooth phone you don't have to install extra stuff in order to use it straight away
<shawn_home> I dont use the ubuntu kernel with dapper snapshot
<Kyral> Kamion, but then at least make it easy to disable
<LaserJock> it seems to me like it doesn't matter what the defaults are if we have a good method for turning them off (or on)
<Kamion> similarly filesystem etc. support to ensure that switching to other filesystems is not unduly painful
<Kamion> it was a conscious decision
<shawn_home> Kamion: but a /etc/default/bluetooth-bluez  config file with ENABLE=  might be nice
<Kamion> Kyral: update-rc.d
<Kamion> shawn_home: sure, no objection to that
<shawn_home> use what /etc/default was for :)
<Kamion> send a patch
<shawn_home> :)
<Chipzz> Kamion: yes, but hardcoding dependencies in the linux-image debs is not the way to go IMHO
<Kyral> Kamion, thats a PITA to use, have you need the manpage?
<Kyral> s/seen/need
<Kamion> Chipzz: what does that have to do with any of the above?
<shawn_home> Kamion: i need to sync up first before I can do that, but yeah a patch can be done easily 
<Kamion> Kyral: many times
<Kyral> Right now sysv-rc-conf is a better solution
<Kamion> or bum, or whatever
<Kamion> there are plenty of service management tools
<shawn_home> the thing is Kbuntu starts up the kbluetooth service, and loads bluetooth kernel drivers (if found)
<shawn_home> so, even if you turn it off during boot up, you still have to use it heh
<Kyral> I dunno, maybe I'm spoiled by Arch's tweakablity
<Chipzz> Kamion: I cant get rid of it unless I remove my kernel with it
<Kamion> Chipzz: you can most certainly remove evms and lvm packages (including init scripts, etc.) without removing your kernel
<shawn_home> Kamion: but dont use aptitude to do it, or it'll want to remove ubuntu-desktop +++
<shawn_home> ;)
<Kyral> I mean...if I do a server install (like I normally do) maybe we should remove those
<shawn_home> i dont know why everything is dependant on ubuntu-desktop mind you
<Kyral> I mean, you assume that people pulling a server install know what they are doing
<Kamion> shawn_home: if you don't want to take the default Ubuntu desktop, then removing ubuntu-desktop is correct
<Chipzz> Kamion: I just discovered you can indeed remove lvm... but I don't think that is (or was?) the case for evms iirc
<Kamion> there is nothing wrong with removing it
<shawn_home> true, but it sometimes decides to remove more than I want 
<Kamion> Chipzz: I believe firmly that you're mistaken here
<Kyral> apt-get install GNOME
<Kyral> See, this is what Edgy is for, for us to try out radical changes :D
<infinity> Chipzz: Removing evms works fine here.
<infinity> Chipzz: Just removes ubuntu-standard (which is not a problem, if you didn't want our package selection in the first place)
<shawn_home> Kyral, you can do apt-get install gnome (well aptitude install gnome)
<LaserJock> Kyral: you know how to package, *hint* ;-)
<shawn_home> meta packages
<shawn_home> metagroup packages or whatever
<Kyral> LaserJock, no shit :P
<Chipzz> Kamion: maybe I'm mistaken, or maybe the situation was such with breezy... anyway, removing lvm as we speak ;)
<Kyral> there is a "gnome" package
<Kyral> just like in Debian
<infinity> We seem to have a disconnect between "people who want their own package selection" and "people who want ours", and "people who want to have both ours and theirs at the same time, magically"
<infinity> The last option can't ever work.
<Kyral> I'm in the first group :D
<shawn_home> I don't mind K/Ubuntu's selection, its some dependencies that make me scratch my head
<Kamion> Chipzz: breezy's initramfs-tools had a dependency on lvm2, which may be what you're thinking of
<Kyral> Or should I say "I wanna use Ubuntu's packages and Repos, but I wanna build it from the bottom up"
<infinity> Kyral: And the first group is easy to satisfy.  Remove stuff, watch our metapackages go away, and you're done.
<Kyral> and have easy tweak power :D
<Kamion> Chipzz: but it wasn't "hardcoding dependencies in the linux-image debs"
<Kyral> Oh we should get the Beyond Kernels in
<Chipzz> Kamion: that may indeed have been what I was thinking of
<Chipzz> my apologies in that case
<shawn_home> my bad mdadm:
<shawn_home>  ubuntu-standard: Depends: mdadm but it is not installable   lvm-common: Depends: mdadm but it is not installable
<Chipzz> lvm and evms, begone! :)
<shawn_home> ubuntu-standard != desktop
<Chipzz> *poof* :)
<Kamion> shawn_home: ubuntu-standard is removable in the same way -desktop is, if you don't like the selection
<shawn_home> if those are just meta packages they won't remove the whole distro ? :) i've had it do that twice 
<shawn_home> it decided i couldn't remove x and said it needed to rip out 2GB or so =)
<shawn_home> so i decided i won't do that
<Kamion> no, they should not remove the whole distro
<LaserJock> I haven't had that problem shawn_home 
<shawn_home> hmm, then thats a bug if I find that happening again :)
<Chipzz> shawn_home: not sure if aptitude or synaptic does that, but apt-get doesn't
<Kamion> for anything based on apt, you should be able to turn on the problem resolver and dig into its decisions
<Chipzz> hrrrm I did find a bug I think though
<Chipzz> neither mdadm, nor lvm{2|common}, nor evms regenerates the initramfs's on removal
<Chipzz> not sure which of those needs to do that
<Kamion> sounds like cause to file bugs
<Chipzz> but I recall at least one of those regenerating them on upgrade
<Kamion> anything that does update-initramfs in its postinst should probably do so in its prerm/postrm instead
<Kamion> s/instead/as well/
<Kamion> at least if it's plausibly removable
<wasabi__> eclipse-pydev is pretty nice.
<Chipzz> # man update-initramfs
<Chipzz> No manual entry for update-initramfs
<Chipzz> blegh
<Kamion> bug 26085
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 26085 in initramfs-tools "ubuntu breezy badger has no man-page for update-initramfs" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/26085
<shawn_home> Im guessing K/Ubuntu will work with the Debianites on Edgy, well feeding back patches? or is it a break from Debian unstable?
<Chipzz> Kamion: no matter, --help does the trick ;)
<Kamion> hopefully final beta-candidate Ubuntu live CDs up now
<Kamion> shawn_home: business as usual
<shawn_home> :)
<Kamion> I expect
<wasabi__> shawn_home: Not quite sure you mean. Ubuntu itself is a break from stable.
<wasabi__> unstable.
<shawn_home> wasabi: but it 'takes' from unstable and stablizes it
<wasabi__> Heh, not exactly.
<Chipzz> oh crap
<shawn_home> thats what I thought originally 
<Chipzz> # update-initramfs -u -v
<Chipzz> Generating /boot/initrd.img-2.6.15-19-686
<Chipzz> cpio: ./sbin/mdadm: No such file or directory
<Chipzz> cpio: ./sbin/mdrun: No such file or directory
<Chipzz> cpio: ./sbin/vgchange: No such file or directory
<wasabi__> It 'takes' from stable and 'leaves sitting in universe'.
<shawn_home> oh
<Chipzz> so far for purging mdadm :/
<Kamion> ok, folks, we need to get this beta release sorted here, and I don't know about anyone else but I'm on not remotely enough sleep
<wasabi__> It 'takes from upstream, makes better, and offers to unstable'
<Kamion> please take meta-discussion somewhere else for now
<wasabi__> k
* shawn_home should update dapper snapshot, Beta 6.07?
<Kamion> and file bugs about non-beta-critical problems rather than pasting them into IRC
<Kamion> shawn_home: beta is beta, final will be 6.06
<Kamion> beta-candidate Edubuntu live CDs building
<shawn_home> I have not encountered any 'bugs' in beta on my laptop in recent months
<shawn_home> (mind you have a snapshot Xorg side-by side with ubuntu's X since im debugging AIGLX/Xgl stuff from -head)
<Kamion> I think you mean in dapper; the dapper beta release doesn't exist yet :)
<shawn_home> well whatever is in the archive.* sites
<shawn_home> unless i have to change my apt sources im not aware of
<Kamion> infinity: castilla and vivies don't seem to want to build livefses for me
<shawn_home> Im assuming anyone using dapper from archive.* 'is' beta currently
<Kamion> shawn_home: in the context of dapper, beta has a defined meaning which is not as vague as "during the development cycle"
<Kamion> i.e. the release we're trying to prepare for tomorrow
<Kamion> using this channel to coordinate
<shawn_home> a real 'CD' cut basically
<shawn_home> hmm, 279MB needed..i am behind 
<Kamion> sorry, I'm trying to be polite, but maybe the hints are too subtle; we need to use this channel for release coordination at the moment. Comments about release issues or CD image testing work are welcome, but I'd ask that other chat be taken elsewhere for the meantime.
<shawn_home> what bugs are currently open for beta, perhaps I can use some to look at 'em?
<Kamion> feel free to test whichever daily builds from cdimage.ubuntu.com take your fancy; the test matrix is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current
<shawn_home> would testing in vmware be ok (I dont really want to hose my ubuntu laptop) ?
<Kamion> sure, though in that event you might want to choose something slightly unusual since some of us test Ubuntu images in vmware already
<shawn_home> anything specific you'd like me to test?
<shawn_home>  Ubuntu CD installation, expert sounds good
<Kamion> the test matrix in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Current lists the useful things to do; I don't want to bias testing
<shawn_home> actualy, DVD since i have a DVD 
* Kamion claims the lock on Testing/Current to sort out a fresh test matrix
<shawn_home> hmm i should the torrent 2.6GB will take 2 hours @ 270KB/s..
<shawn_home> is there a set test to do? or there's no specific order to QA the DVD
<Kamion> the wiki page has directions
<shawn_home> ah there..
<shawn_home> is Kubuntu dapper going beta tomorrow as well, maybe I should test the kde bits since thats what I use natively
<Kamion> everyone: please retest Ubuntu CD images, particularly the live CD which has been rebuilt recently to fix some espresso bugs
<Kamion> other derivatives are pending
<Kamion> infinity: ping
<shawn_home> ok, ubuntu then is fine
<Kamion> new Edubuntu live CDs up
<shawn_home> ok, maybe getting the dvd torrent isn't good, there's nobody who has it yet ;)
<infinity> Kamion: pong
<Kamion> infinity: castilla and vivies don't want to build Ubuntu livefses for me, AFAICT
<Kamion> stuck on a lock?
<shawn_home> ok, i can start testing ubuntu dvd server install, in 1 hour 30 mins aprox 
<Kamion> thanks
<infinity> Kamion: Possibly.  Checking.
<shawn_home> its downloading @ half a meg so i'll do that in vmware, I can test on physical hardware, but its 12am here, so im limited in time :(
<infinity> Kamion: Try now.
<Kamion> infinity: better, thanks - they appear to be going
<Kamion> though no actual output from castilla yet; might just be slow
<Kamion> ah, there it is. thanks!
<shawn_home> 10% *whistles to himself*
<Gloubiboulga> hello
<Kamion> kubuntu/install images updated with new kubuntu-default-settings
<shawn_home> Kamion, when does all testing need to be finished by?
<shawn_home> I can bring my laptop to work and continue testing 
<Kamion> in about eight hours' time I imagine we'll want to be releasing
<shawn_home> hrm, 12:30am now
<Kamion> at this point only utter showstoppers will cause it to be put back
<shawn_home> i guess im late on the testing :(
<shawn_home> 32% downloaded...faster!
<CarlFK> Kamion: can you look at the last 40 lines of http://dev.personnelware.com/carl/temp/Apr19/d/syslog4940  its 350k  ( I added a blank lines around what repeats)
<CarlFK> shawn_home: is 'testing' just run the installer with the defaults?
<shawn_home> there's two types; Short and long
<Kamion> CarlK: search for partman-auto/automatically_partition; looks to me as if you need to preseed that
<Kamion> xubuntu/live rebuilt with new espresso, please test; xubuntu/install was built a while back
<Gloubiboulga> Kamion, I'm downloading xubuntu live to test
<Kamion> Gloubiboulga: thanks
<Kamion> Gloubiboulga: the python-gnome2-extras dependency is gone now, which should help you
<Gloubiboulga> ok
<CarlFK> Kamion: cloest I can find is #d-i partman-auto/init_automatically_partition  on   http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/install/i386/apbs03.html#preseed-partman
<shawn_home> 45% downloaded
<shawn_home> Kamion, Eastern time Dapper goes beta?
<Kamion> CarlFK: docs may not be up to date
<Kamion> shawn_home: huh?
<fabbione> morning guys
<shawn_home> what time zone are you going by for Beta of Dapper?
<Kamion> shawn_home: I have absolutely no clue
<shawn_home> its 1am over where I am, and you said 8 hours to beta
<shawn_home> in 8 hours it'll be sunrise for me :)
<Kamion> nor do I particularly care; we'll release when it makes sense to do so
<shawn_home> ok, then I can bring my laptop and do long test for DVD server
<Kamion> 8 hours was a fairly wild estimate
<shawn_home> just need to guide when testing has to be wrapped up by 
<Kamion> ASAP
<shawn_home> well, I do have sleep or i'll be doing nothing :)
<Kamion> I'm afraid I can't give you a deadline
<Kamion> testing is valuable even after the beta release, though; it can be fed into bug reports
<shawn_home> there is anticipation of a 2nd beta?
<shawn_home> 50% 
<Kamion> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseSchedule
<shawn_home> UTC time...hmmm....
<shawn_home> ok, then my testing will be post beta release, since it wont make it in time UTC is already 5-6am over there
<Kamion> the link was in answer to your question about a second beta, not your question about timezones
<Kamion> the question about timezones is fairly meaningless since for releases like this the people on the critical path often tend to just stay up
* infinity plans to be around for the next ~12 hours, for instance.
<shawn_home> oh im tryin, its just that 7am yesterday morning to 1am now. is starting to push my sleep boundry ;-) I by 2-3am i'll have to be put on extra adrenline or i'll pass out with the laptop still on
<Kamion> infinity: hppa and sparc Ubuntu live CD builds both died (SIGKILL and SIGABRT respectively); out of memory?
<Kamion> infinity: at this point I'm inclined to say screw-it and release without those live CDs
<infinity> Oh, FFS.  Seriousl?
<infinity> y
<shawn_home> it is beta only ;)
<Kamion> infinity: as far as I can tell ... both in the cloop build
<infinity> Well, isn't that special.
<Kamion> so ENOMEM seems kinda plausible
<infinity> ENOMEM seems unlikely, with the gobs of RAM in those machines.
<infinity> 2GB on vivies, 3.5GB on castilla.
<infinity> Anyhow, I'll do some tests by-hand, and let you knof it they behave.
<Kamion> yeah, I'm out of time for ports really
<infinity> Yeah, don't do ports.  I can rerun daily-live for ports later if I get livefs images.
<infinity> You got ia64 built, though?
<infinity> (livefs, not ISO)
<shawn_home> 38 min left of dvd download
<Kamion> infinity: yeah, a while back
<wasabi__> wow sleep works for me. nm works for me.
<wasabi__> things are looking up
<infinity> Kamion: Okay, cool.  I'll just re-spin ISOs after I get livefses on the other two arches, then.
<Kamion> kubuntu live updated too now
<wasabi__> night
<Chipzz> bug 40267
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40267 in initramfs-tools "copy_exec doesn't check if a file exists" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40267
<Chipzz> infinity: I think this is something for you ;)
<infinity> Chipzz: It is indeed.
<Chipzz> patch attached
<fabbione> infinity: do you want access to my T2000 for a test run?
<infinity> fabbione: Only if vivies keeps acting up...
<fabbione> infinity: ok
<shawn_home> 72% almost there..
<Kamion> so basically the CD builds that are left are ports/live (if hppa, sparc get fixed, otherwise maybe ia64 only), kubuntu/install/ports rebuild due to temporary ports.u.c breakage, and DVD builds (Ubuntu in progress)
<Kamion> everything else should be golden and good to test, so please do
<Kamion> the old Ubuntu DVD builds currently published should be fine for traditional installer tests, too; the new build only matters for espresso installs
<shawn_home> old by what date?
<Kamion> 20060419
<shawn_home> thats the one im downloading =)
<dieman> when will we see beta release so I can remember to force a mirror refresh on this end?
<Kamion> dieman: sometime later today, can't give you an exact date
<Kamion> er, time
<dieman> i upgraded the disk on our mirror
<dieman> had some uh, used scsi gear
<shawn_home> 8%...17 mins remain
<dieman> moved from a single ide disk to 24 or so scsi disk on 2 raid 5s that are striped together :)
<shawn_home> er 82
<Kamion> splash-down fix works nicely
<CarlFK> Kamion: still looping - tried "partman-auto/automatically_partitionstring/dev/discs/disc0/disc" and "... booleantrue"   http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12586 
<Kamion> CarlFK: ok, sorry, I'm not going to be able to look at it today
<CarlFK> Kamion: one thing I noticed: "FSET partman/confirm seen true" then later: "SUBST partman/confirm ITEMS The following partitions..."  and then "INPUT critical partman/confirm ... <-- 30 question skipped" - is that expected ?
<CarlFK> ah, no prob
<Kamion> I have the beta release to sort out and I haven't had enough sleep to debug partman in any event
<CarlFK> thought mabe it would be worth a few extra runs
<shawn_home> finished
<shawn_home> time to test install
<shawn_home> i wont mark myself as the official tester since i wont complete this @ 2am fully
<shawn_home> ok i have latest dvd build checksum matches
<shawn_home> dapper-dvd-i386.iso            19-Apr-2006 23:25  2.6G
<dieman> grr
<dieman> wish lighttpd supported the .htaccess stuff
<dieman> went back to apache for now
<shawn_home> eep!
<shawn_home> vmware doesn't run
<dieman> eep!
<shawn_home> /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.5: version `GLIBCPP_3.2' not found (required by ./vmware)
<dieman> player or workstation?
<shawn_home> we stripped out some ABI bits?
<shawn_home> either
<shawn_home> n/mi know why..
<dieman> ok
<shawn_home> no, it wont run
<shawn_home> /usr/local/vmware/lib/vmware/lib/libpng12.so.0/libpng12.so.0: no version information available (required by /usr/lib/libcairo.so.2) 
<shawn_home> bah
<shawn_home> bingo
<shawn_home> im good, its working 
<shawn_home> 8GB should be enough
<shawn_home> uh oh
<shawn_home> Begin: Waiting for root file system... ... (Server install mode)
<shawn_home> is that supposed to take so long? :)
* shawn_home has a blocker I can't even boot the initrd it seems with the DVD in vmware ;/
<shawn_home> thought it was SCSI, tried iDE, removed usb/sound, nope...
<shawn_home> hrm
<mdke> shawn_home, are you testing a daily cd?
<shawn_home> oh 
<shawn_home> yes
<mdke> can you please file a bug?
<shawn_home> ALERT! /dev/ram does not exist. Dropping to a shell!  
<mdke> thinking out loud in here might not help the developers much
<shawn_home> yeah lemme try ain
<shawn_home> reproducable, logging bug
<mdke> thanks
<shawn_home> is this though initramfs-tools or busybox-initramfs im not sure which state its in, it dumped me to a busybox shell
* shawn_home thinks initramfs-tools itself
<mdke> again, thinking out loud is unlikely to help, it just crowds the channel. I'm sure the developers will get to your bug, when the time is right
<shawn_home> i know but im asking you :)
<mdke> as I say, the developers will see your bug
<shawn_home> ok
<dholbach> good morning
<Mithrandir> hi Daniel
<Mithrandir> Kamion: what's the current state of affairs?  Images all ready for testing?
<Kamion> fabbione: have you tried net-install for server preseeding today?
<dholbach> hey Tollef
<Kamion> Mithrandir: */live/ports a bit broken; kubuntu/install/ports, kubuntu/dvd, and edubuntu/dvd need rebuilds
<Kamion> Mithrandir: otherwise we're good for testing
<Kamion> virtually everything had to be rebuilt in the end - there were enough fixes to merit that
<Kamion> including the inevitable midnight "oh shit" fix to espresso
<fabbione> Kamion: yes. 40262
<fabbione> meh
<fabbione> bug 40727
<fabbione> bug 40272 
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40272 in base-installer "linux-server preseeding is broken" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40272
<fabbione> Kamion: i did file a bug to not forget
<fabbione> but it didn't work
<Kamion> oh, that *was* netboot, sorry
<fabbione> yes netboot
<Kamion> check the base-installer version on your mirror?
<Kamion> otherwise I'll look post-beta, I guess - think it's too late now
<fabbione> sure- one sec
<fabbione> base-installer_1.42ubuntu9.tar.gz
<sivang> morning all
<Mithrandir> Kamion: ok, I'll sync down the ISOs and start testing away, then.
<Kamion> ok, that's current, oh well
<Kamion> infinity: any progress on the castilla/vivies crashes?
<spstarr_home> sleep, I'll look at this more from work
<infinity> Kamion: Well, I can tell you it wasn't a one-time thing.  A repeat performance on each yields the same results. :/
<Kamion> this brltty memory suckage stuff on the mailing list sounds bad; is anyone investigating that?
<TheMuso> Only using 6.9% on one system here, and 3.8 on another. Both machines have different amounts of RAM. I should also note that I am not using any Braille hardware at all.
<TheMuso> CPU usage for both is also low.
<Treenaks> Kamion: I've not investigated it, but I can confirm on ppc, x86 and amd64
<TheMuso> 1.3 on one machine, and 5.1 on another.
<seb128> Kamion: some #ubuntu-desktop guy pointed it yesterday and dholbach said he will work on it first thing today
<Kamion> I'm concerned that it may be a beta showstopper
<mvo> Kamion: dholbach is on it
<Kamion> dholbach: please keep me updated
<dholbach> Kamion: there's a patch on bug 40174
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40174 in brltty "Serious Memory Leak" [Major,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40174
<dholbach> i want to investigate it with valgrind
<seb128> Gary patches are right usually
<seb128> just give a try to the patch imho
<Kamion> well, that claims to fix the leak each time detection fails; what about the problem that it tries detection over and over and over again rather than just giving up?
<seb128> hum
<Kamion> dholbach: I'm going to do a by-hand publisher run very soon; if you can catch that, great
<TheMuso> I think it is always searching for USB hardware.
<TheMuso> I don't know what upstream's plans for working with dbus/hal are however.
<dholbach> TheMuso: the new version in debian has udev magic for brltty
<TheMuso> dholbach: hmm right.
<TheMuso> I agree with those who say it shouldn't be running if it is not needed.
<Kamion> rather than make a complex and risky change, I would rather disable it as simply as possible for beta, in such a way that we can fix it in an upgrade after beta
<Kamion> we don't have a lot of time
<Kamion> rebuilding live images alone will take us several hours
<Kamion> may have to defer the fix, but I think that's mdz's call
<Kamion> mdz: ^--
* Kamion starts the publisher
<sivang> has the beta been released already?
<Kamion> sivang: no
<Kamion> 09:00 < Kamion> rather than make a complex and risky change, I would rather disable it as simply as possible for beta, in such a way that we can fix it in an upgrade after beta
<Kamion> does that imply that the beta has been released? it shouldn't
<Gloubiboulga> Kamion, Xubuntu live works fine, the installation with espresso too
<Kamion> Gloubiboulga: great, thanks; do you have a test table on the wiki for Xubuntu like Testing/Current for Ubuntu?
<sivang> Kamion: sorry, I didn't deduce from anything, just geunienly inquiried :)
<seb128> maybe you should read the chan before asking so
<seb128> Kamion: are we supposed to clean the wiki page on every new CD image?
<Gloubiboulga> Kamion, I don't think so
<Kamion> seb128: I left the old data there so that we could refer to it
<Gloubiboulga> Kamion, but it can be created, what is the Ubuntu page?
<Kamion> deliberately
<Kamion> Gloubiboulga: Testing/Current, as I just said
<seb128> right
<Gloubiboulga> ah, ok
<seb128> but like the automatic partition change install
<Kamion> seb128: I think we have to consider testing at least partially invalidated, although obviously not entirely
<seb128> it failed yesterday and is fixed now
<seb128> should I keep 2 entries for it? just the current one?
<Kamion> seb128: if it's confirmed fixed, that's great; perhaps we can remove the N from the old table, then
<Kamion> well
<seb128> right, makes sense
<Kamion> no, note in the new table that the bug in question is fixed
<Kamion> I think
<seb128> works for me
<Kamion> either works, this just seems a little more explicit
<pitti> Good morning
<seb128> hey pitti
<dholbach> hey pitti
<mvo> hello pitti
<jsgotangco> good morning pitti
<dholbach> Kamion: do you think i should do something like        # comment the following line to make it work again \n exit 1        in the init script - just for beta?
<Kamion> dholbach: it's crude, but it's a fix we can have more or less total faith in ...
<Kamion> TheMuso: I'd like your opinion though, bearing in mind the risk
<TheMuso> I'd say go for it. Just re-checking the processes on both my machines, I can also confirm the problem. AFAIK we only have one braille user who is on the ubuntu a11y list, and he is tech savvy, so he would be able to get around it if need be. I think he uses Debian anyway.
<dholbach> I just applied the memleak patch from cvs and it looks good - but I'd rather like to make completely sure and not run brltty at all (for the time of the beta) - we can always investigate in udev / etc afterwards
<TheMuso> So its fine by me.
<sivang> morning pitti 
<pitti> hi guys
<pitti> wow, seb128 is earlier than me :)
<Kamion> dholbach: right, go for it then, please
<seb128> pitti: yeah, I was surprised about it too :p
<dholbach> Kamion: ok - thanks, TheMuso: thanks.
<Kamion> the publisher's running, but I can run it again as soon as base-installer binaries arrive
<TheMuso> np
<Mithrandir> dholbach: I'd go for exit 0 instead of exit 1 just in case usplash decides to display something.
<Mithrandir> (but that's probably just cargo-culting so you might want to ignore me)
<dholbach> Mithrandir: ok, thanks for the pointer.
<pitti> seb128: well, I was awake until 03:20, helped Kamion to debug an espresso bug :)
<pitti> hey sivang, moin jsgotangco 
<seb128> utch
<seb128> you fixed it?
<pitti> well, Colin did :)
<seb128> that's the language pack one?
<Kamion> seb128: yeah, fixed
<seb128> cool
<pitti> seb128: they were all removed in networkless installs
<seb128> I've noticed it was removed languagepacks yesterday, but I thought that was other locales stuff
<seb128> my laptop is a "networkless install", I need to run dhclient by hand to get network
<Lathiat> i find i have to rerun dhclient often on my laptop
<Lathiat> second time it works
<seb128> grumpf, that is new
<seb128> "mount: Mounting /dev/loop0 on /rofs failed: Invalid argument"
<seb128> and it stop booting
<seb128> (i386 CD rsync-ed half and hour ago)
* seb128 tries again
<seb128> same
<seb128> did anybody got that already?
<dholbach> not me
<dholbach> bad burn?
<doko> pitti print ping
<pitti> doko: pong
<dholbach> Kamion: i'm ready - can I upload brltty?
<Kamion> dholbach: yes
<doko> bug 9373, which URL's are valid? trying to add these, which cups can understand
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 9373 in gnome-cups-manager "GUI does not accept all URL schemes accepted by CUPS itself" [Unknown,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/9373
<dholbach> done
<pitti> doko: ugh, no idea
<seb128> Kamion: "mount: Mounting /dev/loop0 on /rofs failed: Invalid argument" ... does that speak to you?
<Kamion> Mithrandir: can you sort out seb128?
<Kamion> (it's Mithrandir's code)
<Mithrandir> seb128: ugh.
<Mithrandir> seb128: arch?
<seb128> i386
<seb128> dunno if that's due to new image or to the partitioning changes from previous install (I did a "automatically changes partitions and install" one) or bad CD
<Kamion> I'm not seeing the huge memory use reported from brltty here; only 2% CPU from time to time
<seb128> is there an easy way to get some debug? should I try on an another CD?
<Kamion> we'll need to decide whether that merits a rebuild; I've SMSed mdz
<Mithrandir> seb128: is the cd mounted?
<Mithrandir> seb128: hmm, it should be.  dmesg say anything interesting?
<seb128> Mithrandir: how do I know that?
<seb128> I get the liveCD menu
<seb128> I select the first option
<Mithrandir> seb128: you have a rescue shell somewhere
<Mithrandir> tty1 or something
<Mithrandir> seb128: I think this would be a bad cd, but we could always try to verify that.
<seb128> hum, VT switching doesn't work 
<seb128> oh it does
<seb128> so
<seb128> cd is mounted
<seb128> dmesg: not found
<seb128> no /var/log (I'm not familiar with CD debugging world)
<Mithrandir> you're in an initramfs.
<Mithrandir> cat /proc/kmsg and see if you see any kind of read errors there.
<seb128> media error (bad sector) on the CD
<seb128> k, let's try with another one :)
<seb128> thank you
<Mithrandir> well, that explains it. :-)
<Mithrandir> np
<jmg> has anyone noticed that linux cdrs are very susceptible to scratching?
<jmg> especially knoppix
<Mithrandir> jmg: they are?
<infinity> It has nothing to do with the OS on the CD. :)
<infinity> A file is a file is a file on an ISO9660 filesystem.
<jmg> i have lots and lots that get one scratch and are useless
<jsgotangco> its all about storing them
<jmg> infinity: gets tricker with cloop
<jmg> jsgotangco: oh?
<jmg> jsgotangco: whats the magic?
<infinity> jmg: Okay, so if your filesystem is one massive file (like a cloop) on the CD, then a bad scratch can take out the whole file... And?
<infinity> jmg: Better to know the CD's broken than to find out later that some random file was corrupt.
<jmg> actually
<jmg> its probably more a side effect of shitty dye/plastic 
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: hi, have you also tried an install CD?
<jmg> infinity: ive had scores of disks fail to install after just one successful use
<Kamion> publisher running again
<pitti> Kamion: uh, another one? only live or also new installs?
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, I've tried the 1st iso released, not a recent one
<Kamion> pitti: publisher => archive cron.daily
<janimo> ok
* infinity orders pizza.
<pitti> ah
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: ok
<mvo> pizza ...
<Mithrandir> doko: changing default language for documents in ooowriter is ignored.
<mvo> *yum*
<jmg> Kamion: we will be able to sync to debian when doogie uploads 3.0.2-2
<jsgotangco> infinity: choice food of real overworked developers?
<jmg> Kamion: he's lost his key or something
<Kamion> jmg: huh, what?
<doko> Mithrandir: liveCD or installed?
<jmg> Oh wait, was it kaloz that i was talking to earlier about xen?
<jmg> sorry
<Kamion> jmg: I certainly have no interest in it
<Kamion> probably Kaloz, yeah
<Kamion> mdz says we rebuild for the brltty fix
<jmg> looks to be me kaloz and hunger for ubuntu xen strikeforce :)
<Mithrandir> doko: installed.  amd64.
<Kamion> dholbach: I hope this fix is well-tested :)
<Kamion> because we may only get one shot at it
<dholbach> Kamion: i tested it, brltty doesn't start any more - and I'm happy the less I have to touch it too :)
<jmg> what's the bug?
<infinity> Testing "exit 0" is pretty tough. :P
<TheMuso> heh
<Kamion> no other paths other than the init script via which brltty might get started by default?
<Kamion> weird that I don't see the memory leak in vmware?
<Kamion> maybe it's only if you have USB hardware
<jmg> isnt brltty the blind persons tty?
<Kamion> apt-cache show brltty
<TheMuso> Kamion: thats likely.
<jmg> Kamion: dont bet on it. vmware's emulation is dodge as
<infinity> Kamion: I definitely see the leak here.  21 hours up, and it's using 700 MB.
<dholbach> for the usb stuff: might good be - i don't see how else it'd be started in a default setup
<Kamion> infinity: wow
* Kamion wills the publisher to run faster.
<jmg> whats this bug with brltty?
<infinity> I'm pretty siure, from experience, that that doesn't work./
<jmg> and memory leak?
* TheMuso goes to check a sid chroot to see what udev magic Debian has for brltty...
<TheMuso> To see whether it is very intrusive.
<Mithrandir> nice, xsane works with my scanner out of the box.
<Kamion> bug 40174
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40174 in brltty "Serious Memory Leak" [Major,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40174
<Kamion> also see the mailing lists
<infinity> Bah, 700MB in a day isn't "serious"... I still have another 1348MB to go.
<infinity> (When I bought the laptop, my cousin asked me why I needed 2GB in a laptop, and my response was, in fact, "memory leaks"...)
<ajmitch> heh
<infinity> Tongue-in-cheek, mind you.
<sivang> infinity: yes, but less memory helps you identify leakage bugs more easily :_)
<ajmitch> I wouldn't call it excessive
<jmg> ouch
<jmg> heh
<infinity> seb128: Did you ever hunt down what's causing this output on install:
<infinity> (gtk-update-icon-cache:13958): GdkPixbuf-WARNING **: Cannot open pixbuf loader module file '/etc/gtk-2.0/gdk-pixbuf.loaders': No such file or directory
<seb128> infinity: no
<dholbach> infinity: where do you get that?
<slomo_> btw, why is the daily live of powerpc ~80MB larger than for x86? :)
<Kamion> more language packs
<infinity> dholbach: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/livefs-build-logs/dapper/ubuntu/current/livecd-20060420-i386.out
<Kamion> oh, shit, ssh's connection multiplexing helpfully got confused and killed my shell that was running the publisher
* Kamion hopes stuff still works
<jmg> Kamion: o_O
<infinity> That's why I always background the publisher when I'm driving it by hand...
<jmg> screen..
<Kamion> yes, it's in screen *now*
<Kamion> hindsight is 20:20
<jmg> lollerskates
<dholbach> infinity: there are a few things that are strange: libgtk2.0-bin is installed after tangerine-icon-theme, but the postinst of tangerine-icon-theme (generated by dh_iconcache) checks its existence (gtk-update-icon-cache) beforehand, so it shouldn't be executed at all
<pitti> Kamion, dholbach: just to make sure, 'CD installation, auto-resize' means 'use largest chunk of free space'?
<infinity> dholbach: Err, no, it's unpacked WAY before, so the binary clearly exists.
<infinity> dholbach: I'm guessing you actually need the postinst to run before it's useful?
<infinity> dholbach: In which case, tangerine-icon-theme should depend on libgtk2.0-bin, so they get configured in the right order.
<dholbach> infinity: you need the postinst to generate the icon theme cache, if the cache is not there, it looks up icons directly, which is fine
<Kamion> pitti: no, "resize <partition> and use free space"
<Kamion> pitti: that option is not always offered; it depends on your partition layout
<dholbach> I didn't want icon themes / other packages with icons to depend on it, as the cache is only generated, if you have libgtk2.0-bin (not likely for the kde folks and they most likely don't need a gtk icon cache)
<pitti> Kamion: ah, ok; well, then we miss an extra line for 'largest chunk of free space' in the test matrix?
<Kamion> pitti: I suppose, but it's not a particularly interesting case once the others are taken into account
<dholbach> Um.... "Filesystem could not be created." (I used amd64, live-cd, auto erase) (it had an LVM on there beforehand)
<Kamion> because it's basically equivalent to erase but on a different subset of the disk
* dholbach tries again
<Mithrandir> pitti: my usb2 hard drive isn't automounted.
<infinity> dholbach: Wel, maybe if you test for '/etc/gtk-2.0/gdk-pixbuf.loaders' before running it?
<Mithrandir> (fresh amd64 install)
<dholbach> infinity: that's a good idea, although I don't see yet, where it's generated or where it comes from.
<infinity> dholbach: Or make gtk-update-icon-cache silent when the conffile is missing, if that expected.
<pitti> Mithrandir: can you please do the steps on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingRemovableDevices and send me the logs?
<mvo> dholbach: I have seen a similar problem with a lvm, it didn't erase my disk then
<dholbach> infinity: i'll do that after beta.
* dholbach hugs infinity
<mdz> morning
<pitti> hey mdz
<mdz> Kamion: how is the rebuild progressing?
<jmg> hi mdz
<Kamion> the publisher is running with brltty source
<Kamion> it would have been done except that I accidentally killed the shell running the publisher, oops
<infinity> dholbach: At a guess, I'd say /usr/sbin/update-gdkpixbuf-loaders in libgtk2.0-bin's postinst is what's responsible for creating it.
<jmg> kamion: dont do that (tm)
<Kamion> after that, we need to run the publisher again for binaries, and then start the main rebuild
<Kamion> jmg: ok, please stop it
<dholbach> infinity: thanks for that - I'll check that.
<Kamion> jmg: if you're not going to contribute usefully, then don't
* jmg snicker
<jmg> last time, promise
<dholbach> jmg: everybody is tense for beta release, please respect that.
<infinity> dholbach: capplets-data has the same issue... I suspect just about anything that might trigger gtk-update-icon-cache will have the issue... So perhaps silencing it a bit might be a better option.
<Mithrandir> pitti: grr, now it worked. :-/
<Kamion> mdz: I have to go out very shortly to take my car for repairs, but hopefully won't be too long
<dholbach> infinity: I'd really better like to identify issues like that.
<pitti> Mithrandir: yay heisenbug
<mdz> Kamion: ok
<jmg> Kamion: sorry
<infinity> dholbach: Or, if this is all a result of your debhepler hacking, then you can just twiddle the dh_iconcache stuff and rebuild the world, I guess.
<dholbach> infinity: so checking for /etc/gtk-2.0/gdk-pixbuf.loaders seems the best fix for now
<dholbach> yeah
<Mithrandir> pitti: yeah, sorry. :-/
<Kamion> infinity: could you please watch for this publisher run finishing, and then watch for all the brltty binaries appearing in accepted, and then kick off another publisher run?
<Kamion> infinity: by that point I should be back
<Mithrandir> mvo: why does synaptic start behind and other windows on the screen?
<seb128> Mithrandir: how do you start it?
<seb128> panel? menu? command line?
<Mithrandir> seb128: system - administration - synaptic package manager
<mvo> Mithrandir: there was a bug in gksus startup-notification code, but it was (should have been) fixed with a recent upload
<seb128> Mithrandir: there was agksu bug but it's supposed to be fixed
<seb128> and it works fine for me (just tried)
<jmg> question
<joelbryan> Hello, how do I post an image in the wiki, from an existing attachment or image location?
<jmg> why does malone not track the version of the package the bug was filed on?
<mdke> joelbryan, HelpOnActions/AttachFile
<joelbryan> thanks
<Mithrandir> mvo: how recent?
<dholbach> jmg: ask in #launchpad or look for bugs filed on Malone
<mdke> pitti, is it difficult to add new printer support? my printer doesn't show up in cups-admin and I've found a ppd file for it. Can I file a bug? if so, on what?
<Mithrandir> mvo: this is a fresh install installed from a CD synced about 1.5 hours ago.
<jmg> dholbach: okay
<pitti> mdke: hmm, it shouldn't be too difficult, we just need to find an appropriate package to ship it in
<pitti> mdke: you are sure about the PPD file's license?
<mdke> pitti, gpl
<mdke> pitti, no idea whether it will work or not tho
<mdke> http://www.linuxprinting.org/download/PPD/Sharp/sham700u.ppd
<pitti> mdke: if you put it in /usr/share/ppd/custom/ and then attempt autodetection, does it do the right thing?
<infinity> Kamion: Completely missed the above, but yes, I'll babysit the publisher.
<mdke> pitti, will try it
<Kamion> infinity: thanks
<mvo> Mithrandir: it was bug #31487, please reopen 
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 31487 in gksu "gksudo launched applications open behind other windows" [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/31487
<infinity> Setting up language-pack-bn-base (6.06+20060407) ...
<infinity> Generating locales...
<infinity>   bn_BD.UTF-8... LC_ADDRESS: field `lang_ab' must not be defined
<infinity> failed
<infinity> pitti: ^^^
<mdke> pitti, do I need to restart anything after copying it there?
<joelbryan> is perl included in dapper main?
<infinity> joelbryan: yes.
<pitti> mdke: actually not, just remove your printer and reattempt to detect it
<infinity> joelbryan: Please ask that sort of thing in #ubuntu.
<joelbryan> perl without libperl-irc
<pitti> Error: 'bn_BD.UTF-8' is not a supported language or locale
<pitti> infinity: hmm
<mdke> pitti, it's a network printer. But the driver has appeared, I'll try a test page
<pitti> infinity: ok, it's bn_BD, nevermind
<Kamion> mdz: FWIW, fortunately only Ubuntu and Edubuntu need to be rebuilt for this brltty thing; brltty is in supported in Kubuntu and ubuntu-server, and not there at all in Xubuntu
<pitti> infinity: shall I fix it for beta?
<infinity> pitti: No, just make a note of it and fix it after, please. :)
<pitti> infinity: i. e. did you get this for livefs building?
<pitti> infinity: ok, *phew*
<pitti> infinity: TODOed
<Kamion> infinity: publisher has finished (I'm waiting for my parents to come back to tow my car, so still hanging around ...)
<mdke> pitti, it's not printing. says "Pending:printer-stopped
<pitti> mdke: and starting the printer doesn't work?
<infinity> Kamion: I saw, I'm by-handing the queuebuilder.
<mdke> pitti, the printer seems ready and waiting.
<pitti> mdke: anything helpful in /var/log/cups/error_log?
<infinity> pitti: Surely, the past tense of TODO would be TODONE? :)
<pitti> that sounds strange
<pitti> :)
<infinity> "I TODID it, it's TODONE... I'll DO it tomorrow."
<fabbione> ROFL
<mdke> pitti, E [20/Apr/2006:10:28:44 +0100]  PID 11141 crashed on signal 11!
* dholbach looks apprehensively at Mr. Infinity and makes notes in his exercise book.
<mdke> pitti, lots of E [20/Apr/2006:10:25:56 +0100]  cupsdAuthorize: Local authentication certificate not found!
<pitti> mdke: are you using the current dapper version or my 1.2rc2 test packages?
<mdke> pitti, current dapper
<pitti> mdke: I'd love you if you could test 1.2rc2: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2006-April/017211.html
<pitti> mdke: maybe it fixes the crash
<infinity> mdke: Do you have samba installed and have SMB shares?
<infinity> mdke: Or anything SMB related?
<infinity> mdke: smbspool has a SEGV in it that I'd planned to fix after beta, since it seemed not quite critical enough to hold up the release, IMO.
<mdke> infinity, it's an SMB printer, dunno what I have installed
<infinity> Yeah, SMB printer means SEGV-city for you.
<pitti> mdke: ah, I thought it was a remote IPP printer
<mdke> ok, awesome to know that you've got it under control. Got a bug number?
<pitti> mdke: anyway, if you have a local printer, feel free to test the new version anyway :)
<mdke> heh, I wish i had one of those at home
<mdke> pitti, I'll try IPP, i think it's available too
<infinity> mdke: bug #39662
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39662 in samba smbclient "smbspool segmentation fault" [Major,In progress]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39662
<pitti> mdke: yes, it's way easier anyway, even more so with cups browsing
<mdke> infinity, thanks dude.
<mdke> pitti, browsing?
<pitti> mdke: cups can automatically collect advertised printers and use them, so that you don't need to configure *anything*
<pitti> mdke: just enable it in System -> Admin -> Printers -> Global settings -> Detect LAN printers
<mdke> ok
<mdke> ooh, lots of printers begin to appear
<pitti> mdke: o/` It's a kind of magic o/`
<mdke> and it doesn't need drivers for those?
<pitti> mdke: shouldn't
<pitti> mdke: it just sends them postscript and let them cope
<pitti> that works fine for remote cups servers at least
<infinity> All IPP printers should work that way.
<pitti> no idea about hardware network printers, I never saw one of these
<sivang> mdke: that's a joint pitti/sivang effort :)
<mdke> holy crap, it works brilliantly
* mdke picks up Ubuntu testpage
<sivang> mdke: pitti on the backend, sivang on the frontend :-)
* sivang high fives pitti 
<infinity> It's an SMB oddity that SMB-shared printers demand pre-processed jobs (requiring a driver on the client)
<pitti> heh
<mdke> ok, forget SMB then
<pitti> alright, off to test amd64 CDs, bbl
<infinity> Kamion: Publisher running, it caught all 6 binary uploads.
* infinity sits back to enjoy some pizza.
<dholbach> infinity: bon apptit
* sivang goes to fetch some thai noodles
* jmg sits back to enjoy some *cough*
<klepas> :)
<Manny> hi
<Manny> dholbach, ping
<dholbach> Manny: pong
<Manny> dholbach, http://rafb.net/paste/results/HMo6Mu32.html maybe you could add them to the GNOME meta package? :)
<dholbach> Manny: I'll ask jordi about his opinion - as he maintains that package in Debian
<dholbach> jordi: what do you think about adding those?
<dholbach> Manny: thanks for your work
<Mithrandir> mdke: pressing a link in "about ubuntu" when firefox is running (on another desktop) doesn't make it pop up to the current desktop.  Is that on purpose?
<seb128> dholbach: that's being discussed on #gnome-debian for Debian but since you are not on the chan I said to Manny to ping you
* dholbach joins
* infinity stares at castilla and vivies.
<Manny> how often does the wiki pull the login data from launchpad?
<jordi> dholbach: my first thought is "sure, why not!"
<dholbach> jordi: good thinking :)
<freeflying> bug 40305
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40305 in debian-installer "Install dapper using 2006-04-10's dapper-install-powerpc cd, d-i can not generate sources.list corrctly." [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40305
<Manny> jord, dholbach: should I file a bug report so that it doesn't get lost or are you handling it right now?
<dholbach> Manny: a bug report is fine. thanks for your efforts.
<Manny> dholbach, ok
<infinity> Kamion: cron.daily complete.
<grayy> www.24freesex.com
<mdke> Mithrandir, pressing a link in the yelp document? I don't know, it depends on how yelp handles links.
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o fabbione]  by ChanServ
<mdke> Manny, the wiki does it on the fly
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+b *!*@*68-10*.hr.hr.cox.net]  by fabbione
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o fabbione]  by fabbione
<jmg> fabbione: any kernel stuff i can help with?
<fabbione> jmg: 40291
<jmg> fabbione: ok
<mdz> infinity: binaries published, ready for livefs builds?
<mh21> pitti: is there anything broken in cupsys that should prevent local authorization?
<infinity> mdz: I can kick them off now on ppc/amd64/i386, sure.
<mdz> infinity: please
<mdz> and install CD builds in parallel
<jsgotangco> fabbione: bigiron should work on a P4 in theory?
<fabbione> jsgotangco: yes
<infinity> mdz: Running.
<mdz> thanks
<jmg> fabbione: hmm... cant confirm
<jmg> fabbione: boots here
<fabbione> jmg: does it boot for you?
<fabbione> ok
<jmg> but, i found something
<jmg> there was a bug... zeroconf route worse than no route?
<infinity> mdz: We needed both ubuntu and kubuntu, right?
<infinity> Or was it ubuntu and edubuntu?
* infinity checks the seeds to be sure.
* mvo reboots for dvd-testing
<ogra> infinity, ubuntu & edubuntu 
<pitti> mh21: hey! :)
<jmg> hmm, network-admin cant handle my configuration
<Manny> mdke, I see - it wasn't obvious that the "Name" field requires me to enter the e-mail address. I tried my launchpad ID with and without its spaces
<pitti> mh21: works fine for me...
<infinity> ogra: Kay, I'll do edubuntu right after the ubuntu run.
<ogra> take your time
<jmg> infinity: you could shorten that to "edu, k, u"
<ogra> i have tested the complete  20060419.1 set already, i dont expect evil regressions
<jmg> the word itself is pretty redundant by now
<ogra> jmg, edu wouldnt highlight my client :)
<jmg> ogra: ubuntu is your client?
<ogra> xchat is
<jmg> ogra:heehee
<ogra> but it highlights on edubuntu, not on edu
<jmg> ogra: gotcha
<mdke> Manny, yeah, there is a bug open about that.
<ogra> (like Riddell's highlights on kubuntu but not on k (i hope for him))
* Manny yesterday filed a finger-print reader feature spec. Would be great for Efty Eft! :)
<jsgotangco> korrect
<jsgotangco> heh
<sivang> Manny: the ones that are on the THinkPads for example?
<Manny> sivang, yes
* Manny has a TP43
<sivang> Manny: count me in, care to toss the link to it? :-)
<jmg> fabbione: server should really use cfq and not anticipatory
<Manny> sivang, https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/fingerprint-authentication - we still need a wiki page
<jmg> (scheduler)
<fabbione> jmg: server uses deadline
<Manny> all the tools seem to be available, just some packaging and GUI tweaking might be required
<fabbione> jmg: actually.. it will
<jmg> fabbione: mine is using anti
<fabbione> jmg: the changes are already in git
<fabbione> jmg: but for some reasosn Ben didn't get to upload before beta
<infinity> Manny: Has someone actually written a driver for it, finally?
<jmg> how do i change o use a different scheduler again
* Riddell spots his highlights going off
<jmg> ?
<fabbione> jmg: bootoption.. scheduler=
<fabbione> jmg: http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/bcollins/ubuntu-2.6.git;a=commitdiff;h=9175137ced8dbbd077064a1ad717d78c873a0cc6
<pitti> Kamion: is it intentional that a server instal gets the -generic kernel, not the -server one? (on amd4)
<fabbione> pitti: we just fixed it
<Manny> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/How_to_enable_the_fingerprint_reader (I linked it from the spec) claims that there is some sort of BioAPI interaction driver available. I don't know (yet) BioAPI
<fabbione> pitti: we need to wait for the new -server images
<pitti> fabbione: oh, I used the normal Ubuntu CD with the 'INstall a server' option
<infinity> Manny: I know BioAPI, I also knew that the last time I looked (6 months ago?) no one had written a BioAPI driver for the scanner on the ThinkPads, so cool if they have.
<fabbione> pitti: that won't work..
<pitti> fabbione: not the dedicated server CD
<fabbione> pitti: you need the -server images to get -server kernels
<infinity> pitti: We don't include the server kernels on the normal CD, so..
<jmg> shouldnt be deadline on server
<fabbione> pitti: so for you it's normal that you get -generic
<Kamion> infinity: ok, how're the builds going?
* ogra still thinks we should rename "server" to "minimal" on all CDs
<pitti> infinity: that's what I thought, but I wanted to cross-check
<ogra> just to rant a bit ;)
<infinity> Kamion: cron.daily for ubuntu is still running, as are the livefs builds for same.
<mdz> infinity: yes, ubuntu and edubuntu
<Kamion> infinity: just big-3?
<Kamion> I have a table keeping track of all beta builds, y'see ..
<jmg> (my opinion)
<infinity> Kamion: Just big-3, yes.  I won't do ports until after all the primaries are done.
<fabbione> jmg: like everything else is question of taste. That's why there is the bootoption.
<Kamion> they can go in parallel
<infinity> Kamion: (And I'm still trying to sort WTF blew up on vivies and castilla)
<mdz> we don't really need to roll new ports builds if the last build was OK
<Kamion> ok, I'll kick off edubuntu cron.daily in parallel, I think
<infinity> Kamion: How parallel can you go before little is crushed under the load?
<fabbione> infinity: do you want access to my beast to try?
<Kamion> mdz: the ports builds will have the same memory leak ...
<jmg> fabbione: i suppose anything other than as is good for a server :)
* Kamion starts edubuntu cron.daily
<mdz> Kamion: it's only interesting on the live CD
<sivang> Manny: seems rather experimental though :)
<Kamion> infinity: I don't really want to push it above 2
<infinity> Kamion: True, but ports users are far less likely to install a desktop anyway, so I'm less concerned.
<Kamion> mdz: really? there are reports of huge memory leaks on desktop
<mdz> and the ports live CDs are somewhat...academic
<Kamion> normal installs rather
<mdz> Kamion: sure, but they can upgrade
<Kamion> true, but reviewers won't :)
<Kamion> I suppose reviewers won't be using ports either
<mdz> right
<infinity> Kamion: ubuntu cron.daily finished.
* Kamion pushes ubuntu/install to releases.u.c/.pool
<Kamion> infinity: I take it livefs builds really can't happen in parallel ...
<infinity> Kamion: Not a hope of that, really.
<infinity> Kamion: Wouldn't speed them up much anyway.
<dholbach> I guess http://daniel.holba.ch/ubuntu/PICT0729.JPG means "try to burn dvd again"
<jmg> nice
<Treenaks> dholbach: it means 'Try again, if the problem persists, poke Kamion', afaik
<Kamion> dholbach: can you get me a clearer screenshot?
<Kamion> dholbach: and file it as a gfxboot-theme-ubuntu bug
<_mvo_> i386/dvd server install hangs here with "Begin: Waiting for root file system... ..."
<Kamion> _mvo_: somebody else reported that too, the bug is linked from Testing/Current
<dholbach> Kamion: I can do that, yes.
<Kamion> _mvo_: try non-server?
<_mvo_> Kamion: that hangs too, but without a message :)
* Kamion wonders if the DVDs are busticated
<Kamion> dunno why they would be ...
<Kamion> I think we'd better release beta without DVDs
<_mvo_> not entirely, live-session works fine
<infinity> Kamion: Okay, something seriously fishy is going on with livefs on hppa and sparc.  I can jerry-rig a single build on each that won't fail, but this needs investigating to make sure it doesn't blow up again.
<infinity> Kamion: Somehow, it's managing to blow out my 2GB filesystem to 7+GB...
<_mvo_> the normal install (without "quiet")  shows the same message
<Kamion> problem is the DVDs take too long to build to sanely fix this in time :(
<ogra> i think we delayed them in breezy as well
<_mvo_> should I file a malone bug? or just note it on the wiki (its a bit little information except: hangs)
<Keybuk> I've heard one or two other reports about fresh server (in general, not just DVD) consistently failing to mount the root filesystem
<Kamion> _mvo_: there's already a malone bug, bug 40278
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40278 in initramfs-tools "[Dapper Beta 20060419]  DVD Server Install within vmware fails to find root filesystem" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40278
<Kamion> _mvo_: I have a feeling that the problem is that we're overwriting the d-i initrd with the casper initrd
<dholbach> Kamion: does http://daniel.holba.ch/ubuntu/PICT0730.JPG do?
<Kamion> and then trying to boot it as if it were d-i
<_mvo_> Kamion: oh, thanks. added it to the wiki. I guess dvd is probably post-beta then
<jmg> kamion: How long is the dvd build?
<_mvo_> anything I can do? I got dropped to a shell now
<Kamion> jmg: long enough when you multiply it by three
<dholbach> (I will re-check and re-burn before filing though)
<Kamion> _mvo_: no, I think I understand the problem
<jmg> Kamion: should have some kind of cache to build them fast
<Kamion> jmg: thank you for your helpful comment
<Kamion> (hint: it's still a lot of I/O)
<jmg> Kamion: are the build scripts for them anywhere?
<jmg> (hint: i want to see if i can help optimise this part of the beta)
<dholbach> hrm, re-checking it works
<Kamion> jmg: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2005-March/006245.html
<jmg> thx
<Kamion> jmg: there's already a cache or two in the build process; I know some things we can do to speed it up (backports from Debian's debian-cd svn), but they're too invasive for dapper
<Kamion> I doubt anything short of those changes will yield a significant improvement
<Kamion> because those changes directly address the slowest part of the process (apt-ftparchive)
<jmg> ah, ok..
<jmg> im interested anyway
<jmg> going to be building a custom livedvd
<Kamion> if it's live only, then the speed problems do not apply
<Kamion> our DVDs are combination live/install
<dholbach> ok this DVD was clearly busted, I re-burn it now
<jmg> im thinking of a dvd of all the ubuntu lives
<infinity> Kamion: Building ubuntu daily-live now.
<Kamion> ta
* jmg wants to see stats for most used words in chanel
<Kamion> infinity: are you starting off edubuntu fs builds too?
<jmg> +n
<infinity> Kamion: They're building, yes.
<infinity> Kamion: I'm going to completely reset the cloops on sparc and hppa (seems to be the only way to avoid this bug for now) and then do final builds for those livefses.
<infinity> Kamion: Remind me to actually fix the bug some other day.
<mdz> infinity: what's the bug?
<infinity> mdz: Not sure yet, except that it's blowing out my precious 2GB filesystems to insane sizes.  I'll trace it later and figure out why.
<infinity> mdz: It only affects ports anyway, so it's hardly critical, just annoying when create_compressed_fs goes -ENOMEM trying to process a 7GB loopback that should have been 2GB.
<mdz> infinity: getting bigger going from loop->cloop?  that would be fairly insane
<mdz> or the uncompressed filesystem is oversized?
<infinity> The latter.
<infinity> haven't traced it yet to see what's exploding it.  mke2fs or rsync, or maybe lamont's fancy block zeroing thingee.
<infinity> Like I said, I'll fix it after beta. :)
<fabbione> Keybuk: i noticed that mine was taking a bit longer to boot the first time.. but after the first time it was ok. something like depmod taking ages.. or along that line.. 
<fabbione> Keybuk: but just the idea.. dunno what it was doing exactly
<Keybuk> we don't do depmod on boot, though
<fabbione> Keybuk: yes i know that.. 
* fabbione -> food
<pitti> Kinnison: oops, sorry, I broke your lock on Testing/Current inadvertedly
<pitti> Kinnison: I saw the lock too late; feel free to trash my changes, it was simple enough
<dholbach> pitti: I saw it just in time :-)
* mvo goes for lunch
<pitti> hm, it seems that Kinnison's lock timed out anyway
* Kamion wonders if all bootloaders are happy with kernel and initrd filenames with radically different names (chiefly, initrd not ending in .gz)
<doko> infinity: thunderbird now proposes to open .odt documents using file-roller ...
<infinity> doko: Yes, it needs the GNOME MIME patch from firefox, which I'll do post-beta.
<doko> infinity: ok, thanks
<Kinnison> pitti: s'okay, it timed out
<Kinnison> pitti: aah so you said
<lifeless> infinity: that fixes it
<infinity> Kamion: ubuntu cron.daily-live completed, edubuntu cron.daily-live running.
<infinity> lifeless: The evms udev prereq?
<lifeless> yes
<infinity> lifeless: Kay, cool, thanks for confirming that.
<infinity> lifeless: I'll try to remember to make an upload as soon as this beta is declared final.
<lifeless> infinity: anyone using evms with lvms for root will be unable to use the beta ... can we make an exception for that ?
* infinity wonders if he's going to have to make prereqs conditional...
<Kamion> infinity: ta
<Kamion> infinity: I'm running along behind you pushing stuff out to the mirror-private directories on releases
<infinity> lifeless: It's been broken this long with exactly two people complaining about it, while I consider it a release-critical bug, I don't really see that as beta-critical.
<lifeless> infinity: ok.
<dholbach> Kamion: the bug with the picture was clearly a bad burn -it's fine now
<mdz> looks like the build has made it out to cdimage; rsyncing
<Kamion> dholbach: ah, ok. a bit concerning but ...
<lifeless> infinity: your call. Only reason I mentioned it is that people generally try betas when they dont try 'head'
<pitti> oh, espresso doesn't copy /etc/modules... /me files a bug
<infinity> lifeless: Agreed, and had I been yelled at about the bug two days ago, I'd agree with you, but I'm not going to hold up the whole show now for this one. :)
<mdz> lifeless,infinity: it's no blocker for the beta; feel free to add an entry to the Known Bugs section of DapperBeta though
<lifeless> ok
<dholbach> Kamion: i'll check dvd images and let you know, if stuff explodes.
<Kamion> dholbach: dvd/install will explode; dvd/live should be ok as far as I know so far
<Kamion> but, unless mdz overrules me, we're not releasing DVDs with this beta
<fabbione> lifeless: i have root on lvm and it works
<infinity> lifeless: Care to make the note in the wiki, since you know exactly how it breaks?
<fabbione> lifeless: oh evms
* infinity ponders conditional prereqs in initramfs-tools...
<mdz> Kamion: copacetic
<Kamion> (I think I have the debian-cd patch now that's necessary to fix DVDs, but it's large and invasive. They've been broken since the introduction of SimplifiedLiveCD.)
<lifeless> infinity: why conditional ?
<Mithrandir> pitti: that's by design.
<infinity> Since we only need a PREREQ on udev if you are using udev... People could have monolithic kernels and evms installed..
<Keybuk> mdz: cromulent
<Keybuk> infinity: why does evms need udev?  that sounds new
<Kamion> not often I have to look up a word
<mdz> (and no one noticed because they're so damn big nobody downloads them except for releases)
<infinity> lifeless: evms doesn't depend on udev (for the above stated reason), and I'd prefer not to complicate that.
<Keybuk> I thought evms made its device nodes itself
<lifeless> infinity: probe for dm in the kernel
<lifeless> Keybuk: it needs device mapper
<pitti> Mithrandir: why that? bug 40311 btw
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40311 in espresso "does not copy /etc/modules" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40311
<Mithrandir> pitti: it copies the read-only file system.
<pitti> Mithrandir: that breaks sound on ppc, and maybe some more things which rely on /etc/modules
<Kamion> we do deliberately copy some other things
<lifeless> Keybuk: this is the bug that we discussed on sunday
<dholbach> can anybody in the german rosetta team fix the "wrong password" gksu string? somebody copied the 'Return' signs :)
<Kamion> pitti: erm, what writes to /etc/modules at run-time to make sound on powerpc work?
<pitti> dholbach: I can, do you have the URL handy?
<pitti> Kamion: Mithrandir recently fixed that in casper
<pitti> Kamion: it's more or less what the normal installer does as well
<Kamion> oh, then it should be a casper espresso hook
<Keybuk> infinity: it's a shame initramfs gets into a panic if a PREREQ is missing
<Keybuk> life would be easier if you could PREREQ udev to mean "need that IF it's installed"
<dholbach> pitti: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/dapper/+source/gksu/+pots/gksu/de/+translate?offset=20
<dholbach> pitti: or hang on... I can make "suggestions" as well
<infinity> Keybuk: That's what I meant by conditional.  Scan the directory we're in, if it's there, make sure it runs first, if it's not, ignore the PREREQ.
<infinity> Keybuk: I think that may be a sane way to go.
<infinity> Keybuk: Given that a *hard* prereq should be satisfied with package dependencies, a *soft* prereq at runtime seems sane to me.  I think.
<infinity> Keybuk: That would allow for this sort of situation, where we *might* want udev, *if* you use it, but if *not*, hey that's cool too.
<pitti> dholbach: whoa, they also removed the markup and everything
<dholbach> narf...
<Keybuk> indeed
<pitti> dholbach: fixing now
<sivang> seb128: hmm, I think that due to hal lack of feature (seeing multi session CD volumes correctly) we get a mount bug in nautlis - when you double click it , it does get mounted with pmount, but there is not indication of this in the GUI. then you retry due to getting no GUI feedback, and get multiple error messages from remounting an already mounted volume...
<dholbach> pitti: i removed the 'return signs' already
<dholbach> or at least suggested it
<seb128> sivang: there is some bug open about it, you can send a patch if you want
<seb128> I don't have "multi session CD" to play with and enough bug to work on at the moment
<lifeless> infinity: can you read the known bugs bit on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperBeta and see if what I've said is sane ?
<pitti> carlos: oh dear, can we please have an 'ack this suggestion' button in the Rosetta interface?
<pitti> dholbach: saw it, but due to this ^ it's hard to make use of it
<pitti> it's faster for me to just remove them myself :(
<carlos> pitti: for easy approval?, yes, that's the plan
<infinity> lifeless: "using and lvm volume group"?
<lifeless> s/and/an/
<infinity> lifeless: Otherwise, looks fine.
<lifeless> if you have evms and a dos volume this bug shouldn't happen
<lifeless> its just the combination of evms + lvm -> needs dm -> falls over.
<pitti> dholbach: 'k, fixed
* dholbach hugs pitti
<lifeless> touched it up
<lifeless> thanks
<infinity> Kamion: edubuntu cron.daily-live finished, if you're not nervously hitting "ps ax" every 10 seconds.
* ogra rsyncs
<Kamion> infinity: I already knew a while ago due to tailing the log file ;-)
* infinity grins.
<Kamion> everything apart from ports is now done
<Kamion> TESTING TIME
<ogra> yeah
<Kamion> at least, if my Grid Of Death is correct
<Kamion> I'll sanity-check it in a bit
<mvo> testing time? again ;) ?
<infinity> Your Grid of Death should be spot on.
* mvo rsyncs
<mdz> just finished an i386/vmware espresso install
<mdz> SO MUCH FASTER
<Kamion> make sure you have locales in the target system
<Kamion> (last night's bug)
<mdz> I will
<Kamion> that /usr/lib/locale/ is non-empty
<mdz> it's booting now
<ogra> faster than what ?  (classic install or yesterdays espresso)
<mdz> ogra: yesterday, before the langpack locales fix
<mdz> though it is also loads faster than d-i
<ogra> ah, cool
<fabbione> i am going off IRC to test netinstall on amd64
<ogra> yes, it *felt* like that yesterday already
<fabbione> if there is anything urgent i have my mobile phone
* ogra would so love to be able to read mail ...
* dholbach -> walk+food while rsync runs
<Kamion> hmm, I just noticed that source CDs have been failing for ages
<mdz> Kamion: /usr/lib/locale is correct
* Kamion expects a nastygram from John Gilmore if we release without those, damn it
<mdz> Kamion: surely not a big deal for beta
<ogra> mdz, did you try with a non en locale?
<Kamion> but it's failing due to apt-ftparchive segfaulting, which is kind of an arse
<Kamion> mdz: I don't think so personally, just whining about the mail I'm going to get :)
<Kamion>  dists/dapper/main/source/:/srv/cdimage.no-name-yet.com/debian-cd/tools/scansources: line 157: 30654 Segmentation fault      apt-ftparchive generate $PREFIX.generate-source
<infinity> Kamion: ubuntu cron.ports_daily-live building now.
<Mithrandir> I wonder why d-i's parted seems to mkfs a lot quicker than parted run from espresso.
<Kamion> hmm, if I'm not mistaken, apt-ftparchive's dying on the same package every time
<mvo> Kamion: do you have a backtrace?
<mdz> Testing/Short OK on i386/vmware live+espresso-install
<mdz> amd64 auto-resize espresso install in progress
<Kamion> mvo: unfortunately not; the raw data's been removed. I'll get you one after beta
<Kinnison> Kamion: if this is breezy's apt-ftparchive, I recommend asking elmo to downgrade the machine to hoary's
<mvo> Kamion: thanks
<Kinnison> Kamion: that one we know works
<Kamion> ii  apt-utils                                      0.6.40.1ubuntu9                                APT utility programs
<Kamion> I'll see if we can track down the issue first
* infinity gets decent bandwidth from the DC for once, and wonders if hell has frozen over.
<Kinnison> Kamion: I'll admit that we gave up trying to diagnose and just went back to hoary's because it was segfaulting on drescher
<highvoltage> well, it is getting kinda chilly
<Treenaks> DC bandwidth? as opposed to AC bandwidth?
<Kamion> could be Debian #334671?
<Ubugtu> Debian bug 334671 in apt "Subject: apt - apt-ftparchive segfaults" [Normal,Closed]  http://bugs.debian.org/334671
<Mithrandir> Treenaks: data centre.
<mvo> Kamion: possible, I vaguely remember this one, it's fixed in dapper
<Kamion> I'll put together a test source package at some point and ask elmo to build/install it
* mvo completed a live-i386/erase disk install sucessfully
<Kamion> or in fact I could just use a local apt-ftparchive, I guess
<Kamion> ah, conveniently launchpad now provides access to all old source, so I can just point anyone who complains there
<Kamion> though obviously it's not as convenient for some
<infinity> Kamion: ubuntu cron.ports_daily-live is done, if you want to push that.
<ogra> Kamion, is the "server" option still supposed to be in edubuntu ? i thought you closed the bug already
<infinity> Kamion: Unless we're not publishing ports to releases.
<Kamion> infinity: I don't think we're putting ports on releases; disk space reasons
<Kamion> ogra: https://launchpad.net/products/ubuntu-cdimage/+bug/38088
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 38088 in ubuntu-cdimage "edubuntu install menu should either hide "server" or have this option renamed to "minimal"" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
<infinity> Kamion: Right, then never mind. :)
<ogra> Kamion, ah, ok
<ogra> thanks (got no evo love today)
<Riddell> Kamion: all 6 kubuntu CDs are good
<mh21> pitti: Is it possible to retrieve http://localhost:631/admin/conf/cupsd.conf, and if yes, with which password?
<infinity> FWIW, now that we have a dedicated ubuntu-server CD, I agree that 'server' should probably be renamed to 'minimal' on all the desktop CDs.
<ogra> yay
<pitti> mh21: web interface authentication is totally broken ATM, mind you
<infinity> Would cause less confusion when people say things like "I did a server install, but didn't get the server kernel -- why?" and we have to explain the two CDs.
<ogra> yep
<mh21> pitti: ah, I knew there was sth broken regarding authentication
<Kamion> Riddell: cool, good to know
<ogra> in edubuntu its specially odd, sincde we default to a server install... but have that option there as well
<mh21> pitti: This is used by a KDE cups tool for configuration
<Kamion> infinity: shame about the name confusion that'll create with the minimal seed and ubuntu-minimal, mind you
<Kamion> we could go back to 'custom', if sabdfl agreed ...
<infinity> Kamion: True, but most people don't much care about ubuntu-minimal.
<Keybuk> infinity: ooh
<Keybuk> infinity: you just solved a bug for me, thanks <g>
<infinity> Kamion: 'custom', 'small', 'no extra stuff', 'itty-bitty', I'm all for any of them. :)
<Keybuk> SEE, IT EVEN CONFUSED ME!
<Keybuk> (not that it takes much)
<Mithrandir> infinity: "iz small"
<infinity> 'lacking-in-gtk-bugs'
<Mithrandir> amd64/install/erase full disk is ok.
* infinity massages his phone line to get rsync to go faster.
<mdz> Kamion: amd64 auto-resize in espresso worked flawlessly
<Kamion> rah
<mdz> ppc and amd64 espresso installs complete and doing first boot now
<mdz> Kamion: snd-powermac doesn't get loaded by default on this powerbook; is that normal?
<Mithrandir> mdz: espresso install?
<mdz> Mithrandir: yes
<Mithrandir> mdz: known bug.
<mdz> ok, thanks
<infinity> See above about espresso not copying /etc/modules.
<Mithrandir> bug 40311
<mdz> apart from that, everything is looking splendid
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40311 in casper "does not copy /etc/modules" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40311
<mdz> hmm, so that'll break printing as well
<mdz> too bad that mousedev is loaded automatically now, or we would have found this much earlier ;-)
<Mithrandir> heh :-)
<doko> seb128:  is gnome_password_dialog_run_and_block supposed to work in a threaded program?
<sivang> seb128: yes, when I see the workaround for HUB I'll try to come up with a patch. will look for that bug report, thanks.
<Kamion> really? snd_powermac is the only thing that casper adds to /etc/modules
<Kamion> if printing's broken, then it's broken on the live CD too
<pitti> mdz: broken in which way?
<seb128> doko: dunno, I've not used it, probably
<mdz> pitti: lp won't be loaded
<mdz> Kamion: printing on the live CD is a desperately endangered use case ;-)
<mdz> printing to an attached printer, even
<mvo> doko: what program is it?
<mdz> or is lp automatically loaded now as well?
<doko> mvo: gnome-cups-add
<mdz> if so, I think /etc/modules can go away on my personal machines
<pitti> mdz: oh, 'lp' is in your /etc/modules normally? it's not on the ppc live system for me, but I don't even have a parport there
<pitti> mdz: but I know several bug reports which complain about parallel printers not being autodetected
<Keybuk> lp needs to be manually loaded
<Keybuk> the designers of the PC parallel port never thought to put device detection into the spec ;)
<mdz> pitti: it is on i386
<Kinnison> Keybuk: does loading lp induce parport_pc ?
<Keybuk> Kinnison: yes
<Keybuk> although parport_pc is usually loaded automatically
* Kinnison nods
<Keybuk> most modern PCs have the presence of a parallel port noted in their ISAPNP table
<mdz> Kamion: what are the current build numbers?  I'm going to update Testing/Current
* Keybuk wonders what sbp2 is doing in /etc/moduels
<Keybuk> and what sr_mod is doing in there
<infinity> mdz:  20060420.1/ for daily-live,  20060420/ for daily.
<infinity> (for ubuntu)
<Kamion> what infinity said
<infinity>  20060420/ for live and daily for kubuntu.
<infinity>  20060420/ for daily and  20060420.2 for daily-live for edubuntu.
<Kamion> so, just so this channel knows, we're going to be calling them "desktop CD" (nee live) and "text-mode install CD" (nee install) from now on
<Kamion> if anyone objects or has better suggestions that still emphasise that the live CD is what most desktop users will actually want to use to install with, now's the time to speak
<infinity> So, filenames will change to dapper-{desktop,text}-$(ARCH).iso?
<Kamion> something like that, but the filenames won't change until post-beta
<infinity> Obviously.
<Kamion> we're changing the HTML index text on releases.u.c for beta though
<Mithrandir> We might want to put "legacy" in the non-live cd description to scare even more people over to espresso.
<infinity> In line with the "custom" boot option, you could go with {desktop,server,custom}
<infinity> Where the "custom" CD is the one with D-I and OEM installer options.
<thom> Mithrandir: i think legacy is a bit excessive; there're still gonna be stacks of people who will use it as the first choice
<Kinnison> windows takes so long to install
* Kinnison kicks vmware with a stick
<Kamion> we did think of custom but I thought it sounded a bit weak
<Mithrandir> thom: true, but we do have users who have produced gems like "in the expert installer (i am a novice) [...] " so getting those to not use d-i, but espresso would probably be good.
<infinity> Yeah, but you only have to install it once (per month)...
<Kamion> and confusing versus actual custom installs
<thom> Mithrandir: i think those people are beyond help
<sivang> Kinnison: why are you installing windows for heaven's sake? :)
<mdz> ok, Testing/Current is now flushed, please add your results (though not all at once, of course)
<infinity> sivang: To test a resize install, I'd assume.
<Kinnison> sivang: what infinity said
<mdz> and whoever goes first, please fix the formatting I broke
<Mithrandir> mdz: too late.
<sivang> Kinnison: ah, well it worked fine on my new T43, only screwed IBM's rescue partition with their modified version of windows.
<infinity> Sweet Jesus.  I haven't booted a LiveCD on my girlfriend's amd64 machine in ages.
<infinity> It's.  Like.  FAST now.
<infinity> Mithrandir: Kudos.
<Mithrandir> infinity: I'm hoping we can make it quicker for dapper+1, though.
<Kamion> I agree with thom that legacy seems a bit harsh, given that espresso is not a replacement for everything d-i does
<Mithrandir> infinity: especially on high-end machine.
<infinity> Mithrandir: I assume it's known that I get crap resolution on amd64 still?
<Kamion> (and can't really be without, well, turning into d-i)
<infinity> (I thought xresprobe was supposed to be working there now)
<Mithrandir> infinity: it's not xresprobe's fault, it's X.  Presumably.  Can you dump your xorg.conf somewhere?
<Mithrandir> infinity: or just check if you have decent resolution lines in there.
<Kamion> freeflying: you should recheck what Karl already wrote before asking him to do something he's already done (in #40305) ;-)
<pitti> mdz: ouch, completely fushed? there go 6 hours of testing... :/
<Mithrandir> pitti: we always need to test the final images, though
<infinity> Mithrandir: 'sec... Let me grab some stuff.
* Beuno wonders if anyone needs some testing I can help with
<infinity> Mithrandir: What else do you want?
<freeflying> Kamion: got it , thx
<infinity> Mithrandir: http://cerberus.0c3.net/~adconrad/live/
<seb128> mvo: g-a-i complains about "The list of available applications is out of date" and wants to reload it but there is no internet connection set on that box ...
<Mithrandir> infinity: oh, that's special.  I assume your card does > 1x7?
<infinity> Mithrandir: well, yes, it's a GF6800GT.
<mvo> seb128: right, could you file a bug about it please?
<Mithrandir> infinity: can you run sudo ddcprobe from the console and put the output there too?
<seb128> mvo: k
<infinity> Mithrandir: And works fine in the dapper install currently on her machine at lovely high resolutions and refresh rates.
<pitti> infinity: do you happen to use DVI?
<Mithrandir> infinity: it seems to have written sync ranges which it shouldn't do by default, though.
<pitti> infinity: hm, if it works on install for you, then it's something else, nevermind
<infinity> Mithrandir: In the same directory.
<infinity> Mithrandir: ddcprobe goes up to 1280x1024, which is still low, but higher than I got in my conf...
<Mithrandir> infinity: what kind of monitor?
<infinity> pitti: I don't use DVI, but I didn't say it worked on install (haven't reied a fresh install on this machine yet), just that it "works in her current install"
<Mithrandir> infinity: it probably hates you because edid failed.
<infinity> Mithrandir: Viewsonic P95f+, very PnP happy.
<Mithrandir> pitti: my setup does edid just fine with DVI, I think it's your cable or monitor that doesn't like it.
<Mithrandir> infinity: hmm, CRT, and unless it's utterly ancient it should do EDID just fine.  (And since it's a 19", it's not that ancient)
<Mithrandir> infinity: could I have your Xorg.log?
<Mithrandir> infinity: and does it work correctly in 32 bit mode?
<infinity> Mithrandir: Sent.
<infinity> Mithrandir: the monitor?  Of course.
<Mithrandir> infinity: (rephrase) can you try with a 32 bit live cd?
<infinity> Mithrandir: Oh. :)  Yeah, just have to burn the ISO.
<Mithrandir> infinity: I'm particularly interested if ddcprobe works in 32 bit mode, since that means there are still bugs there I need to fix.
<zul> heylo
<Mithrandir> seb128: it'd be useful if the "permission denied" dialog in nautilus would offer an option "copy" if you're not allowed to move a file.
<seb128> Mithrandir: good idea
<doko> mvo, seb128: http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/gnome-cups-add-progress/ hints welcome. try adding a network smb printer
<Mithrandir> seb128: want a bug about it or should I file it upstream?
<seb128> Mithrandir: upstream would be nice, I don't think we are likely to distro patch it before dapper
<mvo> doko: a debdiff might be nice
<Mithrandir> sure
<doko> mvo: see the ui_progress patch
<fabbione> mdz, Kamion, Mithrandir: netinstall looks pretty good all over...
<mdz> fabbione: cool, thanks
<lamont> infinity: it's the zero-block step, just fyi
<mdz> Kamion and I are working on the Beta announcement
<fabbione> lamont: i did re-assign to you bug #40286 and bug #40288
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40286 in linux-source-2.6.15 linux-image-2.6.15-20-itanium-smp "[ia64]  OOPS when accessing /sys/class/misc/efirtc/uvent" [Major,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40286
<infinity> lamont: That sounds like the authority of a man who's seen this bug before. :)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40288 in palo-installer "fails to install" [Major,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40288
<mdz> time to think back and remind ourselves about all of the cool stuff we've done
<lamont> infinity: yeah - I tracked it about that far, and got lost... big images and all that.
<lamont> then y'all switched to squashfs and it stopped mattering so much
<fabbione> who is editing DapperBeta page?
<mdz> NEW FEATURES WHICH SHOULD GO IN THE ANNOUNCEMENT EMAIL -> ME
<fabbione> is -> is going to edit
<Keybuk> mdz: boots in less than a week
<lamont> fabbione: ack on those bugs
<Kyral> mdz, GNOME 2.14?
<Kyral> Deskbar Applet?
<mdz> I'll trawl DapperBeta as well
<doko> lamont: the hppa-cbranch stuff didn't show regressions
<infinity> Damn, burned the wrong CD... <sigh>
<lamont> doko: nice
<Kyral> wait is this a general "Whats new in Dapper?" or a "Whats new in Beta"?
<Mithrandir> mdz: all the cool stuff since breezy, I presume?
<mdz> Kyral: they're the same
<mdz> Mithrandir: yep
<doko> mdz: OOo 2.0.2 finale release
<Kyral> mdz: Off the top of my head
<Kyral> GNOME 2.14, KDE 3.5.2(I think..), Espresso
<Kyral> Deskbar Applet, improved boot times
<mgalvin> fabbione: i was just getting set to finish it up this morning
<Kyral> libxine-extracodecs
<mdz> specifically stuff which is not in the spec PDF or in DapperBeta
<Kyral> Oh I haven't looked at that
<Kyral> lol
<Treenaks> Kyral: Uh... have you tried gstreamer 0.10? :)
<Kyral> Treenaks, Yah the LibXineExtraCodecs + GStreamer .10 is awesome
<Kyral> but some people like Xine :D
<Kyral> And Linux is, and always has been, about choice
<Kyral> you don't like foo, use bar
<Treenaks> Kyral: sure, but I think we should promote gstreamer more than xine ;)
<Kyral> Treenaks, *shrugs*
<Kyral> I'm of the opinion to give them both love :D
<Kyral> They are both awesome backends
<Mithrandir> mdz: more derivatives, including xubuntu, more arches.
<Kyral> Xine is tried and true, and until .10, superior to GStreamer in every respect
<Kyral> the Ubuntulooks theme!
<Keybuk> Kyral: now, now, let's only celebrate the good things about dapper
<Keybuk> *ahem*
<Kyral> Keybuk, lol
<mdz> fabbione: X.org is 7.0?
<Kyral> Oh, Kerry in Kubuntu :D
<Kyral> Kubuntu got a lot of good love :D
<fabbione> mdz: yes 7.0
<Kyral> But try to avoid XGL
<Mithrandir> Xair, XGL and compiz? :-P
<Kyral> I mean like, mention its in Universe, but defer all questions to #ubuntu-xgl
<Kamion> GCC 4.0.3, glibc 2.3.6
<Kamion> (under the hood)
<Kyral> 2.6.16!
<Kyral> Or wait..thats Arch lol
<Keybuk> under the hood, I guess removal of hotplug is a feature
<Kyral> Are the newest NVidia drivers in Dapper (wouldn't know, been using Arch..)
<Kamion> we'll have a section for hardware support, so udev work probably belongs there
<Kyral> This is kinda not a part of Dapper itself
<Mithrandir> under hardware support "i2o working out of the box" would be nice.
<Kyral> but maybe list the people who have become Members, MOTU, and Core-Dev during the release cycle
<pitti> Mithrandir, Kamion: ppc/oem install, the created user's $PATH is wrong (just /bin:/usr/bin); known bug already?
<Mithrandir> pitti: what does /etc/environment look like?
<Kyral> Because we all worked hard, so it would be kinda nice to see something like that, a little recognition :P
<Kamion> Kyral: I think it's in danger of becoming an Oscar speech
<Kyral> Like aside from new features in Dapper, hi light like new Teams formed, include something about the new version of LP
<Kamion> getting people to read the whole thing will be hard enough :)
<Kyral> Kamion, ain't that what Mark kinda wanted for Dapper...being all polished?
<Kyral> why not go overboard this once? :D
<jsgotangco> lol
<pitti> Mithrandir: just LANG and LANGUAGE
<Kyral> I personally cannot wait for Edgy to start
<Kyral> I love Mark giving us virtual cart-blanche :D
<fabbione> Kyral: please.. we are all very stressed with Beta
<Mithrandir> pitti: something's broken, then.  No idea what, really.  I can try the oem install after I've tested live.
<fabbione> can we postpone these kind of discussions later...
<Kyral> fabbione, huh?
<Kyral> oh sorry...
<Kyral> I haven't been contributing much because of school...sorry....
<mgalvin> could anyone possibly move the DapperBeta screenshots to the main website
<mgalvin> my ISP will start getting mad soon :-/
<mgalvin> i can give you a list of the images
<Kyral> Don't worry, I'll help relieve the workload for Edgy. Yea for SUMMER!!
<pitti> Mithrandir: I'll file a bug then, shall I?
<mgalvin> heno does not seems to be around atm
<jsgotangco> Kyral: xorg bugs need love, you might want to check it now :D
<Kyral> jsgotangco, I cannot
<Kyral> for 2 weeks
<Kyral> Finals :P
<Mithrandir> pitti: please do so.
<Kyral> All Ubuntu/Debian work is deferred until May 7th
<Kyral> Then I will crack down and earn MOTU before 6.10 :P
<infinity> Mithrandir: You can rest easy(ish)... I get exactly the same output with the i386 livecd.
<fabbione> Kyral: -> #ubuntu-offtopic
<infinity> Mithrandir: I'd still like to know WHY, but at least it's not amd64-specific.
<Kyral> fabbione, sorry.....
<Mithrandir> infinity: your monitor hates you, probably.
<Mithrandir> mgalvin: I'm not sure who can change the website, but I've pasted your query on #canonical so somebody will hopefully attend mgalvin: I'm not sure who can change the website, but I've pasted your query on #canonical so somebody will hopefully attend to it soon.
<Mithrandir> mgalvin: if not, tell me and I can put the images on people.ubuntu.com or something
<infinity> Mithrandir: Maybe, but I don't recall this issue in breezy.
<mgalvin> Mithrandir: cool, thanks... i will give them a few min to respond for now
<mdz> fabbione: is there a page with more information about ubuntu-cluster that I can link to?
<fabbione> mdz: no..
<Mithrandir> infinity: hmm, weird.
<fabbione> mdz: you can link to my office pics and get a laugh.. no.. really...
<mdz> fabbione: ok, please write something for final
<fabbione> mdz: do i need to prioritize it before or after fixing X? :P
<mdz> fabbione: what are the 3 most interesting differences in the server kernel vs. the desktop kernel?
<mdz> fabbione: after; you can do it the day before release if you want ;-)
<pitti_> Mithrandir: bug 40328
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40328 in Ubuntu "OEM install created user has wrong $PATH" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40328
<Mithrandir> pitti_: I grabbed the bug since it's mine, thanks.
<fabbione> mdz: no PREEMPT, 100Hz, deadline I/O scheduler as default.. bigger SMP support, more than 8 CPU, basic NUMA...
<fabbione> mdz: i think... there might be more, but we can ask Ben as soon as he is awake
<Beuno> mgalvin; I got about 1500gb of bandwidth pre-paid on a dedicated that I can burn, need some til you get those moved over?
<fabbione> mdz: oh more than 4GB of RAM support...
<mdz> installation to (and later booting from) USB devices now works, right?
<Keybuk> should do
<Mithrandir> mdz: yes.  At least did last time I tested it.
<carlos> seb128, jdub: did you noticied that evolution has the spam and trash icons swapped?
<Keybuk> I have a 1GB stick here, but atm it's taking ~4 hours to download a single ISO, so not sure I'll have that tested before you want to release beta
<seb128> carlos: it has not on my box
<seb128> carlos: you mean the icon meaning? or the order?
<mgalvin> Beuno: my meger little server and cable connection is just a bit over worked atm... the thing is that each time the images move all the wiki links need to be changed... so i would prefer to only move them once ;)...
<mdz> fabbione: any other server stuff I should mention?
<mdz> (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperBetaAnnouncement to see what's already there)
<fabbione> mdz: i am trying to think
<fabbione> infinity: HELP ME DUDE!!!!!!
<mgalvin> Beuno: thanks for the offer i will let you know if someone from canonical doesn't get back to me soon
<mdz> fabbione: installer-volume-management?
<infinity> fabbione: You got the LAMP thing, right?
<mdz> infinity: ooh, thanks for the reminder
<rcaskey_> if the old install cd is now called the Desktop CD, is the old CD called the Server CD?
<fabbione> mdz: that was in breezy already. we got that for ppc in dapper
<seb128> carlos: dholbach is icon guy, if you are confused by icons ping him ;)
<fabbione> mdz: i DID write it in the email
<Kamion> rcaskey_: no, the live CD is now called the Desktop CD
<fabbione> infinity: yes i did.. apparently mdz is not reading his emails ;)
<mdz> fabbione: write what in what email?
<rcaskey_> err sorry the old Live CD
<janimo> seb128, do you know if evince plans another release before dapper and whether it eneters dapper if so?
* rcaskey_ smacks self
<mdz> oh, I didn't see that you had sent me email
<Beuno> mgalvin: np,  I'll be hanging around here a while, so whenever you want
<mdz> I was expecting IRC messages
<fabbione> <mdz> NEW FEATURES WHICH SHOULD GO IN THE ANNOUNCEMENT EMAIL -> ME
<rcaskey_> so live -> Desktop, install->?
<seb128> janimo: probably no new version no, why?
<Kamion> rcaskey_: the install CD is now called the text-mode install CD unless we think of a better name; the server CD is something different, so we cannot call it that
<jsgotangco> heh
<mgalvin> Beuno: cool thanks! :)
<janimo> seb128: so I know I do not update the gtk only patch now and do something with higher priority
<rcaskey_> Kamion: Advanced Installation CD?
<Keybuk> Kamion: "console" :)
<mdz> fabbione: right, me here on IRC ;-)
<rcaskey_> Kamion: well you need it for RAID & such so I think Advanced might indicate there is additional options available
<Mithrandir> rcaskey_: "Advanced" is a terrible label.  It attracts people who shouldn't be attracted to it.
<mdz> Keybuk: hmm, I like "console". sufficiently jargonish and scary to keep casual desktop users away
<mdz> Mithrandir: right, we rejected it for that reason
<fabbione> mdz: i read that as:  NEW FEATURES WHICH SHOULD GO IN THE ANNOUNCEMENT, please EMAIL -> ME 
<Kamion> console> can do
<Mithrandir> mgalvin: can you give elmo the URLs and he'll put them somewhere for you and give you the urls back?
<infinity> Indeed, "Advanced" is bad.  We've already had people installing the "Server" CD, since they assumed (from Win2K experience, I guess) that "Server" has more stuff than "Workstation", who were then confused about where the GUI was.
<mgalvin> Mithrandir: yup, i'll send them his way in just a sec
* Kamion trawls through Flight announcements
<rcaskey_> Mithrandir: hrmm, Text-Mode Installation CD?
<jsgotangco> infinity: i guess they assumed a graphical server setup?
<Mithrandir> rcaskey_: something like that, yes.
<Mithrandir> jsgotangco: they assumed "server > desktop".
<Mithrandir> (probably)
<Kamion> mdz: some stuff in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperReleaseNotes
<Kamion> although not sure it's too useful
<infinity> jsgotangco: What Mithradir said.
<Kamion> Mithrandir: sorry, I unassigned 40328 from you by accident
<infinity> Kamion: Any plans to make espresso deal with clocks that aren't in UTC?
<Kamion> mdz: vga16fb -> 640x400 at all worth mentioning?
<Keybuk> infinity: given UTC=no breaks dhcp, probably bad ;)
<Kamion> infinity: I've been meaning to add a checkbox for that, but it's relatively low priority at the moment
<infinity> Kamion: (espressoing on my GF's machine where the clock is local, and when I pick the right timezone, I'm 10 hours out... Some sort of "clock is in local time" checkbox would be nice)
<mvo> Mithrandir: I wonder if that gksu opens in the background problem is amd64 specific
<infinity> Keybuk: Err, it does?  How?
* Kinnison unlunches
<Keybuk> infinity: dhcp stores leases in localtime
<Mithrandir> Kamion: I reassigned it to me, unless you feel like tackling it.
<Keybuk> dhcp runs before hwclock
<Keybuk> so lease jumps 10 hours and gets expired
<Keybuk> afaiui
<infinity> Keybuk: Well, that's silly.  Why do we not run hwclock earlier then?
<Kamion> infinity: feel free to add it to UbuntuExpress/ToDo if it's not already there, somewhere in the topmost section
<Riddell> are we testing DVDs for beta as well?
<Keybuk> infinity: hwclock reads a file in /usr, /usr isn't mounted until after networking (in case of nfs /usr)
<Kamion> Riddell: no, DVD installs are busted and awkward to fix so we'll skip them for beta
<mdz> Kamion: probably not
<Riddell> Kamion: ok
<Mithrandir> mvo: maybe, yes.
<mdz> Kamion: merging DapperReleaseNotes
<Kamion> mdz: integrity check boot option?
<Kamion> live CD persistence, perhaps, if we can figure out how to word it; could tack it onto the live CD bit in under the hood
<rcaskey_> BTW, does fsck still run automatically after 30 reboots?
<Keybuk> "The Live CD can use a USB memory stick to store changes you make, so that they aren't lost after a shutdown or reboot" -- something like that
<Kamion> rcaskey_: yes, I still have a bug open about that
<rcaskey_> it entirely moritifies users
<mdz> Kamion: I think the integrity check is more functional than sexy, and we're getting pretty long here
<rcaskey_> what's it filed against btw?
<Kamion> rcaskey_: now is not really the time to advocate bug-fixing at me
<Kamion> I have no idea offhand
<Kamion> partman-ext3 maybe
<rcaskey_> Kamion: I know, was just curious, thanks
<Kamion> I also have many more bugs that are much more urgent than that one
<mdz> Kamion: live CD persistance is fairly primitive at this point, probably not very interesting to non-developers
<Kamion> ok
<Kamion> I'm going to start preparing the release on little; please nobody run sync-mirrors for a while
<Kamion> ogra: is Edubuntu good to go?
<Kamion> janimo: is Xubuntu good to go?
<Kamion> fabbione,infinity: is ubuntu-server good to go?
<Kamion> Riddell has already said aye for Kubuntu
<ogra> Kamion, amd64 still pending, i386 live/install and ppc live/install are good
<fabbione> Kamion: i can't test iso's... rsync keeps hanging on me.. according to netinstall is good
<Keybuk> fabbione: I think Mithrandir is sucking all the bandwidth
<fabbione> it's about 12 hours that i can't finish one ISO
<ogra> amd64 install is running (had a bad media again, else i'd be done already :/)
<Keybuk> either that, or there's a data centre problem
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: I haven't rsynced for hours.
<Keybuk> pings fall to huge numbers somewhere in level3
<infinity> Kamion: I've been testing ubuntu ISOs... I can try to grab some server ones, but it won't be "quick".
<Znarl> We have a huge amount of spare bandwidth in the DC.
* infinity glares at his livecd.
<Keybuk> Znarl: hmm, I'm getting high ping times and almost no rsyncness
<fabbione> Znarl: amount of bw is not relevant if the link is flapping
<elmo> fabbione: I already asked you to provide evidence of that that we can give to our ISP
<infinity> Is it normal for debconf to complain about "DbDriver "config": /var/cache/debconf/config.dat is locked ..." when I try to install stuff on the livecd? :/
<elmo> Keybuk: ditto for you, please
<Keybuk> elmo: what kind of evidence would be most useful, I'll see what I can collect
<Mithrandir> fabbione: I get 700KB/sec to the DC.
<infinity> Kamion: ^^^
<fabbione> elmo: i know, but i can't see why it hangs, otherwise i would have done that. and i did not point my finger to the DC
<Kamion> infinity: you aren't running espresso, are you?
<Mithrandir> (which is my link speed)
<Kamion> infinity: look for stray debconf processes.
<elmo> Keybuk: mtr/traceroute type stuff, if you're seeing packet loss
<infinity> Kamion: I cancelled an espresso install...
<fabbione> Mithrandir: i am getting 650K now.. the problem is that it hangs half way
<fabbione> Mithrandir: not the speed
<Kamion> infinity: it may not have quite cancelled out properly
<infinity> Kamion: Ahh, kbd-chooser is still running.  Special.
<Keybuk> I'm getting 60KB/s to the DC ... and 300KB/s to mirror-service
<Kamion> mm, right
<mdz> znarl: we'll address your bandwidth surplus shortly
<Keybuk> now I'm only getting 30KB/s :p
<infinity> Spiffy, even nvidia-glx works on the livecd.
<Mithrandir> infinity: nice.  Do you get the full resolution that way?
<infinity> Mithrandir: I get the full res with either driver... If I dpkg-reconfigure and manually select the resolutions I want.  They just don't get ddcprobed.  <shrug>
<infinity> Mithrandir: Maybe they never did and I'm on crack.  It's something I can look at later.
<Mithrandir> infinity: If you could remove the HorizSync and VertRefresh lines and see what you end up with, that'd be interesting.
<pitti_> yay, finished rsyncing the new images
<infinity> Mithrandir: Well, I'll still only end up with the modes listed in xorg.conf, no?
<Mithrandir> infinity: you would, but your Xorg.log might have more interesting faff.
<infinity> Mithrandir: (better refresh rates, of course)
<infinity> Actually... That's cute.
<mdz> znarl: is elmo around?  I'd like to confirm that the mirror links in the beta announcement are still appropriate
<infinity> I'm only given the option of 85Hz, nothing lower.
<infinity> ON her installed setup, I get a whole whack of options.
<infinity> Something's definitely gone goofy with this lately.
<ogra> infinity, i have the same prob here
<ogra> (wrong resolution on all widescreen laptops)
<Mithrandir> infinity: I blame xserver-xorg, then.
<infinity> Yeah, I do too.  I'll have to have a look at that in the coming weeks.
<Kamion> mdz: so are we going for "text-mode" or "console"?
<mdz> install to USB is only supported by d-i, right?
<ogra> infinity, Kamion and i talked about it, would probably be a good idea to just attach a monitor db and fall back to that one if ddcprobe fails
<Kamion> mdz: actually not certain, but I suspect so for now
<ogra> but thats no dapper material, we'd need to collect db data first
<mdz> Kamion: text-mode
<Mithrandir> mdz: it should, in theory, work with espresso too, but I wouldn't advertise it.
<Kamion> ok
<elmo> mdz: err, I was talking on #canonical when you said that...
<mdz> elmo: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperBetaAnnouncement
<Mithrandir> ogra: it'd actually be interesting to implement EDID 1.3 and see if that fixes it.
<mh21> pitti: Where are the local cups certificates in an Ubuntu system?
<Beuno> this isn't correct, is it?   * Linux 2.6.15.6
<ogra> Mithrandir, if we can get info out of the monitor that would indeed be better
* infinity curses the desktop and server CDs having the same filenames.
<pitti_> mh21: /var/run/cups/certs
<mdz> Beuno: yes, it is, according to the changelog
* Mithrandir introduces infinity to the concept of directories.
<mdz> BenC: confirm we are at 2.6.15.6?
<infinity> Mithrandir: Yeah, yeah, I didn't notice until it was too late, that's all. :)
<Mithrandir> ogra: white/blacklists are ugly.
<Mithrandir> infinity: (to be fair, I've almost been bitten by it myself)
<mh21> pitti: thanks
<ogra> Mithrandir, but the monitor db from xfree 3.x was pretty good ... having a fallback would still be good 
<infinity> mdz: Confirmed.
<fabbione> mdz: yes we are
<Mithrandir> ogra: you think it was good?  I think it was terrible.
<Beuno> ok ok, just wondering, saw the wiki and I had read differently somewhere else (tracking down somewhere else)
<ogra> Mithrandir, better than being left with a broken resolution ... especially since we install the broken setup now
<mdz> Kamion: are we pre-published yet?
* ogra would prefer to just have the old debconf question usplashified 
<infinity> Kamion: I will be double-checking server in about 25 mins, according to wget.  I didn't realise no one had yet. :/
<mdz> elmo: are those mirrors still best for announcements?
<elmo> mdz: checking now
<rcaskey_> Seems kind of odd to mention components not installed by default (Network Manager) in a release announcement, even for a beta.
<Kamion> mdz: have been pre-published for ages
<pitti_> okay, off to installing amd64
<rcaskey_> Perhaps a "other packages newly available" section would be more appropriate
<elmo> mdz: basically, I think they're fine - right now, they'll point to us, but I want them on there, so we can fall back to who they really are, once we've used our full BW
<ogra> rcaskey_, how else is the user supposed to know that its on the CD but not installed
<mdz> elmo: ok
<elmo> mdz: I might also like to add fr.releases.u.c, znarl's just checking the paths match
<mdz> elmo: everything cool on your end as far as announcing beta?
<elmo> mdz: yeah
* Kamion wonders how come releases.ubuntu.com/.pool/ is ignoring him
<infinity> Kamion: Works for me..
<infinity> Kamion: Stale mirror.
<infinity> ?
<dholbach> carlos: both icon problems (trash looking disabled/like-a-battery and evolution trash icon inscrutable) are already known and forwarded "upstream"
<sladen> ogra: which question?
<Kamion> ah, there it is now, just slow
<elmo> mdz: scratch .fr, that list is fine - thanks
<ogra> sladen, the fallback if the resolution cant be determined automatically
<sladen> ogra: ah
<ogra> xorgs postinst falls back to a list if it cant get the right values
<mjg59> Has X been fixed so it actually chooses something other than vesa?
<Kamion> ogra: Edubuntu publishing is next on my list ...
<Kamion> ?
<jsgotangco> \o/
<ogra> Kamion, amd64 still lagging
<ogra> the others are proven good
<Kamion> mdz: what do you think, publish anyway?
<ogra> it was fine with yesterdays iso
<ogra> i really doubt there will be an amd64 specific regression
<dholbach> ogra: just fyi: new dia release (final 0.95)
<ogra> dholbach, ok
<mdz> Kamion: anyway?
<mdz> what's wrong?
<Kamion> mdz: despite ogra not having tested amd64 yet
<mdz> oh, edubuntu
<Kamion> yes
<ogra> Kamion, amd64 install is nearly through
<mdz> if it's just a question of waiting until it's been tested, let's wait
<Kamion> ok
<ogra> live is written to disk and waiting for the machine to become free
<jsgotangco> ogra: was able to install 19.1 if its any consolation
<jsgotangco> (amd64)
<ogra> jsgotangco, yes, thats what i meant with yesterdays isos i tested :)
<Kamion> ubuntu and kubuntu are (nearly, in the latter case) published on little and pending sync to mirrors
<mdz> announcement is ready to go
<rcaskey_> how about changing the second sentence in the Announcement to "This Beta Release includes the Desktop CD which allows a user to boot Ubuntu off a CD or install it to their hard disk, as well as the text-mode installation CD for installations requiring X, Y, or Z."
<mdz> rcaskey_: it's a bit long for being at the very start; the details of the new installer are at the top of the features section
<mdz> rcaskey_: I've clarified it a bit
<mdz> Kamion: ready when you are
<rcaskey_> mdz: will you be mailing pressed text-mode cds or only Desktop cds?
<mdz> rcaskey_: the latter
<rcaskey_> mdz: "At that time, we will mail pressed Destkop CDs free of charge."?
<Kamion> mdz: syncing out ubuntu install/live, kubuntu install/live, ubuntu ports install now
* ogra is installing grub on amd64
<Kamion> and I would just like to say YAY FOR PRE-PUBLISHING
<Kamion> INSTANT mirroring
* Kinnison grins
<mdz> rcaskey_: agreed, changed
<mdz> (in the email; I'm not updating the wiki anymore)
<ogra> wow, the CD tray just gave one of the cats a heart attack
<mh21> Riddell: Can you test the patch at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/12600? It should get cupsdconf basically working (means authenticating), although I'm not sure its a good idea to expose kde users to the functionality of the tool as long as it has problems with the configuration file syntax/splitting...
<janimo> Kamion, sorry was away. yes xubuntu good according to tests so far
<Riddell> mh21: this is against cups 1.2 rc 2?
<Kamion> janimo: ok, thanks
<mh21> Riddell: yes
<Kamion> mdz: good to go as far as I'm concerned, unless you want to wait for edubuntu
<Kamion> or ubuntu-server or xubuntu
<rcaskey_> mdz: what do you think of "The Desktop CD combines most of the functionality previously contained in the install & live cds, allowing you to install Ubuntu onto your hard disk or use it directly from the CD." (last suggestion, I promise ;)
<ogra> amd64 install is good to go
<ogra> jumping on live now
<Riddell> mh21: compiling away
<shawn_work> ok ubuntu-cdimage, thanks, is Colin Watson here? #40278
<ogra> mdz, Kamion, edubuntu is good to go
<pitti> mdz: you don't want to wait for more complete Ubuntu test results?
<shawn_work> 'Is this failure on booting from DVD, or on the first reboot into the new system after completing the installation?' => Answer: Failure on booting DVD
<ogra> (but we urgently should look to get pcmcia support into the initramfs... its quite odd without over here)
<mdz> pitti: we have pretty good coverage for beta at this point
<mdz> we've tested the most common
<shawn_work> I have updated the bug info
<pitti> mdz: yes, if we take the previous CD version into account
<mdz> as for all the corner cases...that's why we're releasing it to the world for testing ;-)
* infinity is doing a LAMP install on amd64 right now.
<Kamion> shawn_work: I receive mail from your comments; there's no need to also tell me on IRC
<pitti> I just added ppc/install, amd64/install looks good so far (but still takes a while)
<shawn_work> Kamion: I guess, though IRC Is faster usually
<pitti> but I didn't do a single espresso test with the latest images so far (I'm about to do that on ppc)
<Kamion> shawn_work: I don't want it to be faster; I'm busy doing a beta release
<Kamion> we decided to postpone DVD releases to after beta
<shawn_work> ah ok, so thas a blocker
<Kamion> shawn_work: but thank you for the extra information
<shawn_work> i'll do some CD tests tonight on physical hardware
<shawn_work> (if there's still some needed)
<ogra> shawn_work, <mdz> as for all the corner cases...that's why we're releasing it to the world for testing ;-)
<ogra> ;)
<ogra> go ahead :)
<shawn_work> sounds fine then
<mgalvin> just a heads up DapperBeta set and moved to http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/dapperbeta (i just still need to update the image links which will be done soon)
<mdz> mgalvin: that image at the top causes it to render poorly at 1024x768; it prevents the text from being placed next to the table of contents
<mdz> mgalvin: I suggest just removing it
<ogra> and the NM screenshot could use more colors (or less dithering as you like)
<ogra> its a bit "overgiffed"
<BenC> So it is safe to upload a new kernel now?
<mgalvin> mdz: hmm... ok, i guess i'll just remove it
<infinity> BenC: Wait another hour. :)
<BenC> ok
<rcaskey_> mgalvin: btw, icon has changed for update manager notifications
<infinity> mdz: When the new kernel goes in, am I good to go for the new fglrx, BTW?  You didn't deny the UVF exception, just wanted me to wait til post-beta, right?
<Kamion> infinity: any plans for those trailing ports builds?
<dholbach> ogra: I think that's what byzanz did to it.
<infinity> Kamion: ?
<ogra> dholbach, hmm, can you adjust the gif parameters for it ? 
<infinity> Kamion: You mean to test them?
<infinity> Kamion: They're all built...
<dholbach> ogra: I think not.
<ogra> or is that hardcoded
<ogra> meh ...
<mdz> infinity: yep
<Kamion> infinity: oh, didn't know you'd built all the live ones too
<infinity> Kamion: Yeah, ubuntu-live anyway.  Did we want kubuntu?
<dholbach> ogra: I guess that's to make it not too big for web use.
<mgalvin> rcaskey_: yea, there are two others i need to fix as well
<mdz> announcement is away
<dholbach> YAY!
<mgalvin> is there away to force the restart notification to pop up?
* pitti does the dapper dance
<Mithrandir> mdz: does that mean we've released? :-)
<infinity> Kamion: I'm not fussed on having kubuntu-live for ports.
<infinity> Kamion: But I'm not sure it's my call. :)
* dholbach hugs the Distro and Release team!
<Kamion> infinity: I can not bother releasing it, certainly
<ogra> dholbach, yep, the deskbar one looks fine to me, its just the NM one, i guess due to the differen shades of brown
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | LP upgraded, report issues on #launchpad | Beta released
<Mithrandir> \o/
* Mithrandir goes to make pancakes to celebrate
<dieman> http://mirror.cs.umn.edu/ubuntu-releases/dapper/ is live too now
<mdz> odd, isn't in the list archives yet
<ogra> PARTY !!
<dholbach> let's all upload random crack again!
<dholbach> wooooo! :)
<wasabi> Would if I could. ;)
<Kamion> some of us still have to babysit publish-release ;)
* dholbach hugs Kamion :)
<ogra> wasabi, fix our account then :)
<wasabi> Looks like I was never added to ubuntu-dev on LP
<mdz> Mithrandir: is it normal for there to be a delay between approving a moderated message and it appearing in the archives?
<dholbach> ogra: wasabi signed up for ubuntu-dev
<ogra> Kamion, any reason you cant do that in a relaxed drunken partymood ? :)
<ogra> dholbach, he shouldnt need to, he's MOTU since ages ;)
<Kamion> ogra: as per usual, I seem to be having to hack publish-release on the fly
<wasabi> ogra: Yeah but nobody actually added me to the group
<wasabi> mdz: I think hitting join to ubuntu-dev on LP has sent you an email. :0
<ogra> Kamion, meh ... so its more than just watching it 
<infinity> Hrm.
<Kamion> yes, ports releases are being arsey
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | LP upgraded, report issues on #launchpad | Beta released: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-April/thread.html
<infinity> Kamion: What's the install regex for LAMP?
<mdz> er
<infinity> Kamion: It didn't seem to install PHP here...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:mdz] : Ubuntu Development (not support, even with dapper) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | If your initramfs is broken in any way, please save a copy for infinity | LP upgraded, report issues on #launchpad | Beta released: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-April/000065.html
<Kamion> d-i     pkgsel/install-pattern  string ~t^ubuntu-standard$|~n^apache2$|~n^php5-mysql$|~n^libapache2-mod-php5$|~n^mysql-server$
<fabbione> infinity: the same regexp you gave to Kamion :)
<jsgotangco> LTS nice
<ogra> oh, no mention of edu/kubuntu ?
<infinity> Kamion: Argh, I think I probably specified apache2-mpm-prefork, and that got turned into apache2.  That would explain it.
<fabbione> infinity: what have you done????
<infinity> Kamion: apache2 is pulling in -worker by default, php5 needs -prefork, aptitude is apparently too retarded to understand that -prefork could satisfy both deps, so I'm getting -worker and no php.
* infinity decides this isn't the end of the world and we can fix it post-beta.
<fabbione>   * Turn-key LAMP installation
<infinity> Kamion: Other than that little oops (which we can resolve later), amd64/server is fine.  Got the right kernel installed, etc.
<fabbione> SCORE
<tseng> fabbione: i was just noticing the same
<fabbione> tseng: ain't my fault
<Mithrandir> fabbione: got 2.6.15-20-server for i386/server
<fabbione> Mithrandir: cool thanks
<fabbione> Kamion: -server images seem to be good...
<fabbione> ppc can wait to be tested...
<infinity> PPC doesn't have crazy kernel issues, so it should be fine, if it boots at all.
* infinity is miffed about the LAMP thing, but has no one to blame but himself for not testing earlier... <sigh>
<infinity> Kamion: I'll bug you about how we can fix that in a day or two, after the beta glow has worn off.
<Kamion> infinity: yep, sure
<fabbione> i wonder why it did work on flight-6
<ogra> crap, so i need my own announcement now ?
<fabbione> some people did report it working on
<fabbione> ok
<ogra> i thought the announcements should be like the flight6 one from now on  :((
<infinity> Some people clearly got lucky.  Or I got unlucky.  I dunno.
<infinity> But it's easy enough to fix it so it will definitely always work right.
<infinity> You just tell pkgsel *exactly* what you want, so it doesn't have to resolve deps and make stupid decisions.
<infinity> And stupid decisions are something our packaging tools excel at on occasion.
<fabbione> infinity: that's what i did the first time and got bashed for that...
<infinity> Well, in this case, we'll just add one decision for it.
<infinity> Others should work out okay on their own.
<mdz> fabbione: it's undocumented anyway, isn't it? ;-)
<fabbione> mdz: EXACTLY!
<rcaskey_> btw, BitTorrent is a wikilink that goes nowehre on the dapperbeta page
<fabbione> it's written absolutely nowhere.. like the RELEASE ANNOUNCMENT or.. hmm the GFXBOOT!
* infinity coughs.
<mdz> heh, didn't realize it was on gfxboot
<fabbione> it is
<mdz> I believe you
<infinity> Well, gfxboot doesn't say "LAMP includes PHP", so maybe it's Linux, Apache, MySQL, and Party Hats.
<mdz> Perl!
<Keybuk> Python!
* Keybuk sends mdz off for re-education
<dieman> um
<fabbione> *cough*bull shit*cough*
<infinity> mdz: Well, sure, we include both perl and python, but neither mod_perl nor mod_python. :)
<dieman> pretty awesome ruby on rails!
<infinity> I'll stick with Party Hats, if anyone asks.
<mdz> Keybuk: who writes web applications in python? :-P
<mdz> *cough*
* ogra raises hand
<infinity> mdz: moin and viewcvs come to mind (because they're the only two I've ever used..)
<ogra> hwdb and popcon are in python :)
<Keybuk> mdz: you can't keep on pretending Launchpad doesn't exist now, you know
<infinity> Oh, yeah, and that launchpad thing. ;)
<ogra> pfft launchpad 
<dieman> plone is pretty good :)
<pitti> mdz: would now be a good time for asking you about upgrading cups in dapper? or is there too much champagne in your head already? :)
<Keybuk> heh, beta is out, and my FIRST iso download is still only 80%
<Keybuk> *sigh*
<fabbione> Keybuk: lucky you
<fabbione> mines are not here at alll
<infinity> Keybuk: Rock on. :)
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: you know, if you tested images a bit more often you'd get to join in on the fun.
<pitti> I just managed to break espresso yet again :)
<dieman> btw, mirror.cs.umn.edu has got the isos if release is going slow
<mdz> pitti: champagne! what a great idea
<ogra> pitti, do we need a rebuild ? 
<infinity> Keybuk: I actually burned and tested 4 of them... Which I figured I wouldn't get around to, since I live in .au and all.
<fabbione> Kamion: if pitti.user() die;
<Gloubiboulga> ++
<dieman> ahh, i guess us.releases has em too this time
<dieman> yay
<mdz> dieman: *.releases is pointing to releases atm
<fabbione> dieman: we have 10GB now :)
<fabbione> or something like that
<dieman> ahh
<dieman> yeah, i only have 1GB
<pitti> ogra: petunia bowl: "Oh no, not again!"
<Surak> seb128: thanks for your attention regarding bug #28507 - just replied to it, but I don't know if emails keep going after a bug is closed.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 28507 in librsvg "librsvg2-common not installed, breaks SVG rendering" [Major,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/28507
<ogra> pitti, :)
<pitti> ogra: no, the sky isn't falling, nevermind
<seb128> Surak: yeah they do
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: I test them quite a bit -- I foolishly wiped the downloaded isos a week or so ago though
<Keybuk> Micksa: so had to rsync from scratch
<seb128> Surak: apps which need it should have a Depends on it, if they don't that's a bug
<dieman> fabbione: nice, i get peak about 10MB/sec from releases
<pitti> Keybuk: you should consider jigdo for the install CDs; it's magnitudes more efficient
<seb128> Surak: having ubuntu-desktop and some apps depending on it should assure than almost every has it though
<fabbione> dieman: about 2MB here...
<fabbione> here as in .it
<dieman> fabbione: but i still get 30MB/sec+ from my local mirror :)
<Surak> seb128: yeah. 
<fabbione> dieman: well norma
<fabbione> +l
<dieman> fabbione: yah
<dieman> 60MB/sec when its cached
<Keybuk> pitti: it wouldn't help when it's the data centre network sulking :p
<dieman> disk is slow
<pitti> Keybuk: but you can scan /var/cache/apt/archives and CDs from other arches (to get arch:all packages) and so on, and you can use another mirror
<pitti> Keybuk: so you can circumvent the DC completely :)
<Keybuk> pitti: I guess; it's easier just to wait it out I suspect though
<Keybuk> the problem wasn't around ~last week
<pitti> Keybuk: sure, I just wanted to point out the alternative, since relatively few people seem to be aware of it
<seb128> Keybuk: hi. my laptop still has that network issue: it doesn't get an IP automatically (need to run dhclient by hand). The laptop has eth0 beeing a realtek 8139 card and an eth1 ipw2200, after boot ifconfig only lists eth0 and lo as up, running "sudo dhclient" configures eth1 correctly ... is that known? are you interested to debug it? :)
<Keybuk> seb128: UTC=no and /usr on a different partition ?
<seb128> Keybuk: nothing of that, stock dapper candidate install
<seb128> and liveCD doing the same
<Keybuk> no idea then
<dieman> Keybuk: how does UTC= affect things?
<Keybuk> pitti knows dhclient better than I
<Keybuk> dieman: dhclient writes leases in localtime, or something
<dieman> Keybuk: ahh
<seb128> Keybuk: that laptop was working with hoary
<Keybuk> seb128: what's in /var/run/network/ifstate ?
<Keybuk> you said eth1 isn't UP ?
<seb128> broken with breezy (d-i and system not listing the cards the same way or something but you said that was not something to change before 5.10)
<seb128> ifconfig lists eth0 and lo only
<Keybuk> does ifconfig -a list eth1?
<seb128> dmesg | grep eth only mentions eth0
<seb128> let me restart, I've run dhclient on it now, a min
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> restart, and then we'll run a few commands on it and check what it's doing
<seb128> Keybuk: restart done
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> do you have a wired network or something on it?
<seb128> ifconfig -a lists it
<ogra> seb128, i have the same problem here, but was told its because pcmcia isnt in initramfs ... 
<Keybuk> ok, eth1 is in ifconfig -a ?
<Keybuk> check /etc/network/interfaces
<seb128> I've eth0 being a realtek 8139 card with no wire on it
<Keybuk> confirm it has auto eth1 / inet eth1 dhcp
<seb128> and eth1 ipw2200 wireless
<seb128> /etc/network/interfaces has only lo and eth0
<Keybuk> that's the problem then
<Keybuk> whatever wrote that (installer/espresso) wrote it wrong
<Keybuk> what's in /etc/iftab ?  just eth0 or both ?
<seb128> sec, it's rebooting again :p
<Keybuk> which did you install with?  install or live?
<carlos> pitti: ping
<seb128> Keybuk: liveCD and espresso, but network doesn't work on the liveCD neither
<Beuno> slashdot story about to hit the front page about beta...
<Keybuk> Kamion: ping
<pitti> Keybuk: do I? :) I actually know very little about the dhcp guts, I just get the bugs assigned (I'll look into them at some time, promised)
<pitti> hey carlos 
<Keybuk> pitti: you touch it more than I do <g>
<carlos> pitti: I'm fixing rosetta's translation domains
<pitti> granted
<seb128> Keybuk: /etc/iftab has a "eth1 mac ..."
<Keybuk> seb128: ok
<Keybuk> seb128: then it sounds like the "netcfg only writes the interface it cared about" bug
<Keybuk> and I guess espresso doesn't bother asking that question, and only ever configures eth0
<Keybuk> (random guess)
<seb128> the bug is before espresso
<seb128> liveCD has no network
<carlos> and I found a package that has an specific .pot file for the .desktop translations, are we able to handle that with the patch to support .desktop files with language packs?
<seb128> so whatever is used to set the liveCD environment has the bug too
<Keybuk> boot the live CD on it, and check that's /etc/network/interfaces
<carlos> In fact, I think KDE packages use the same approach
<pitti> carlos: do you have 15 minutes? then my workstation should have finished installing, and I can leave my flatmate's laptop with only a live system :)
<seb128> Keybuk: doing that now
<Keybuk> casper may only write eth0 because it relied on n-m
<carlos> pitti: sure, ping me when you are ready
<Kamion> Keybuk: I'd really rather not try to think about this now
<Keybuk> this is why ifupdown sucks
<Keybuk> Kamion: sleep? :p
<Kamion> Keybuk: or something
<Keybuk> it should default to dhcp
<pitti> carlos: erm, yes, as long as the desktop file states the correct domain, that should be fine
<carlos> pitti: and which domain is that one? ;-)
<pitti> carlos: you mean a package doesn't use gettext in general, and we just added a pot to catch the .desktop translations?
<carlos> well, no, I mean, a package uses gettext (at least that's what I think it does) but has another .pot file with the .desktop translations
<pitti> carlos: which package do we talk about? I remember having changed some package to work like this, but I forgot which
<carlos> instead of using the 'default' .pot file
<pitti> carlos: hm, that's indeed unusual
<carlos> pitti: skim
<carlos> pitti: it has a po/desktop.pot
<Mithrandir> seb128: casper doesn't write an iftab file at all
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: not iftab, /etc/network/interfaces
<carlos> pitti: and po/skim.pot
<seb128> Keybuk, Mithrandir: /e/n/i only lists lo and eth0 on the liveCD too
<Mithrandir> seb128: what kind of interface is eth1?
<seb128> ipw2200
<pitti> carlos: hm, I'd call that a bug
<Mithrandir> seb128: I guess it doesn't show up in the initramfs, then, and therefore casper doesn't write /e/n/i for it.
<pitti> carlos: and KDE doesn't yet have patches for supporting langpacks for .desktop files anyway
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: obviously not
<Keybuk> needs firmware
<Mithrandir> seb128: this used to work Just Fine when we had NM. :-P
<Keybuk> no firmware in da initramfs
<carlos> pitti: should I file bugs then?
<pitti> carlos: so can you please file a bug against skim to clean that up and ignore that pot file for now?
<seb128> Mithrandir: I know, I blame Keybuk ;)
<pitti> carlos: you can read my mind :)
<carlos> ok
<Lure> Keybuk: would you be fine if we patch /etc/init.d/networking to support "status" option
<carlos> :-P
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: actually it wouldn't work
<Keybuk> Lure: nope
<lucas> hi
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: oh?
<carlos> pitti: should I file bugs for KDE packages too?
<carlos> and missing .pot files?
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: would still get copied to the installed filesystem without "auto eth1" so the installed system (which has no n-m) wouldn't bring it up
<pitti> carlos: you mean other packages which look like that?  if it's just a handful, sure
<lucas> who is dealing with ubuntu's bittorrent tracker ?
<carlos> doko: btw, now that the beta is released, are you going to upload a new OO.org version?
<pitti> carlos: if all packages have that, then we shold rather find a generic solution (in cdbs' kde.mk maybe)
<carlos> pitti: ok
<Keybuk> Lure: users shouldn't run init scripts; and networking isn't the init script that brings up network interfaces anyway
<Keybuk> Lure: also no other init script has status
<Lure> Keybuk: true, it looks like I am still used from rpm based systems...
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: so it's an udev bug because udev doesn't do anything sensible with interfaces it doesn't know about.  As in, doesn't have a sensible default policy. :-P
<Lure> Keybuk: will fix powersave for bug 40262
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: that's an ifupdown bug
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40262 in powersave "powersaved doesn't restart services set in SUSPEND2RAM_RESTART_SERVICES" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40262
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: arguably, yes.
<Keybuk> and can be filed along with "I want to replace ifupdown with something less stupid in dapper+1"
<seb128> is that something we can fix for dapper?
<seb128> Keybuk: I think you already said that previous cycle :p
<Keybuk> Lure: powersave should iterate the up interfaces and ifdown them ... then when it comes back ifup them
<Keybuk> seb128: alas, there is but one of me
<Keybuk> so much crack, so little time
<mdz> lucas: something wrong with the tracker?
<mdz> lucas: the software is pretty unreliable in general, not too much we can do about it usually
<Lure> Keybuk: thanks - will look in fixing this properly
<Keybuk> Lure: look at acpi-support which does exactly this
<seb128> Keybuk: so that's likely than any laptop with a wired card and an ipw one will have that issue (ie: network not working out of the box)?
<Keybuk> sounds like it
<seb128> bah
<lucas> mdz: no, I mean: who should I contact to make my case about doing some log analysis
<Keybuk> there's a trivial hacky fix :)
<doko> mdz, Kamion: is the archive unfrozen? carlos want to have some fun with translations
<Keybuk> casper could always write eth<n+1> just in case ;p
<Kamion> doko: as far as I'm concerned yes
<mdz> doko: yep
<carlos> doko: let's give some work to Rosetta then :-P
<seb128> Keybuk: better fix: install n-m :)
<Keybuk> seb128: n-m would have to work, first
<doko> carlos: you'll get five new indian languages as a bonus ;-P
<ogra> Keybuk, thats only one line thats missing in your postinst
<seb128> Keybuk: it does work on that laptop :p
<mdz> yesterday I plugged in a crossover cable to get a log off of this test laptop with an unsupported wireless chipset
<ogra> seb128, not using icon cache ? 
<Keybuk> ogra: ... ?
<pitti> seb128: which file do I have to kill again to make nm-applet work?
<mdz> n-m thought it would be clever to down my wireless interface when I did that
<ogra> Keybuk, run dh_iconcache as dholbach advised yesterday
<seb128> pitti: /usr/share/icons/hicolor/*cache*
* pitti hugs seb128 
* seb128 hugs pitti
<Keybuk> ogra: I was referring to the general state of n-m
<Keybuk> not just that one bug :p
<ogra> ah
<Keybuk> ie. that n-m works provided you don't touch your laptop
<ogra> yes
<pitti> seb128: I looked in /var, seemed more logical to me :)
<Keybuk> if you try to do anything creative, like use it, n-m finds some interesting way to stop you in your tracks
<seb128> pitti: yeah, you could argue about that being a bug :)
<thom> Keybuk: it works absolutely fine for me
<thom> *shrug*
<Keybuk> thom: it works provided you have an X40
<thom> i don't ;-)
<Keybuk> or one of a very limited number of wireless/wired chipset combinations
<ogra> thom, it doesnt with my airport extreme 
<seb128> I don't really care about n-m installed or not, but having to run dhclient by hand really sucks
<ogra> neither with my orinoco pcmcia card
<thom> Keybuk: what you mean is ipw* i guess
<seb128> I know what to change, but it doesn't "just work" for luser
<Keybuk> thom: the wired chipset affects it too, sadly
<Keybuk> and then you have the joy where n-m gets confused, and needs to be killed
<Keybuk> or the fact n-m doesn't understand "stop! I want to configure a static IP!" etc.
<ogra> seb128, ++
<thom> surely it only needs to be able to be mii'd?
<dholbach> Keybuk: it doesn't work nicely for me on an x40
<dholbach> i have to run dhclient by hand every now and then too
<Mithrandir> dholbach: it works nicely for me on an x40.
* dholbach cries
* dholbach takes his ball and plays elsewhere
<Mithrandir> except when the driver decideds that my neighbour's AP is stronger than mine and I have to do sudo iwconfig eth1 essid s12
<Keybuk> seb128: I agree, iz casper bug :)
<Keybuk> heh, I have the problem that my neighbour's AP has WPA
<Keybuk> so every time I start n-m, it asks me for my keyring password
<Keybuk> even though I've never, ever, EVER, told it to connect to that network
<dholbach> Keybuk: same here
<dholbach> can we rollback to 0.5? *run* :-p
<Keybuk> and it gets very very upset if I don't give it the password
<Keybuk> to "needs to be killed" degrees, usually
<mjg59> (Or we could, uh, try to fix the bugs)
<thom> on an unrelated note, shouldn't the keyring password prompt grab input?
<thom> a la gksu?
<Keybuk> mjg59: there's just too many of them
<Keybuk> I've been making sure they're registered upstream
<seb128> Mithrandir: do you think there is anyway we would do from casper before dapper to get networkin working on such config?
<Kamion> janimo: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/dapper/beta/ FYI, when it finishes mirroring
<Keybuk> it's entire design to me seems fatally flawed
<janimo> Kamion: thanks
<Kamion> I believe that I have now published everything for beta
<Kamion> night all
<Keybuk> stupid things; like using the cable sense to decide to rip down the wireless connection
<Mithrandir> seb128: redo the scan of /sys and rewrite /e/n/i and then ifup -a ?
<Keybuk> instead of finding out whether it can even get an IP from that cable first
<seb128> Mithrandir: something like that yeah
<Mithrandir> seb128: fugly, but should work.
<seb128> Mithrandir: does it work if you only have an ipw2200 card atm?
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: i'd "ifup $IFACE &" for each, rather than use -a
<seb128> or is it broken because I've a wired card and a wireless then?
<Keybuk> seb128: broken because you have a card that the initramfs has no driver for
<seb128> so anybody having an ipw2200 has no network with liveCD?
<thom> Keybuk: downing wireless when you get a wired cable sense seems quite reasonable and sensible to me, in the vast majority of cases
<dieman> heh, i just use wpa everywhere, so i dont notice the keyring issue :0
<dieman> :)
<Keybuk> thom: the assumption that a cable indicates a network is wrong though
<mjg59> Keybuk: It's not a cable. It's a cable with link beat.
<Keybuk> it should detect the cable, try and bring up that interface, and then only if it works, bring down the wireless
<Mithrandir> seb128: my laptop doesn't do live cds very well.  I could test with casper and grub from an usb2 disk, though.
<Riddell> mh21: http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/cups.png
<Riddell> mh21: http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/cups1.png
<thom> Keybuk: the assumption that plugging a cable with beat implies that you want a wired network is utterly reasonable
<Keybuk> thom: I disagree
<Mithrandir> seb128: but not now, since. dinner.
<seb128> right, no hurry
<thom> yes, it should possibly be more robust, but that's a very sane design decision
<seb128> enjoy the dinner ;)
<Lure> Keybuk: I agree - only if wired is working, wireless should be dropped
<Riddell> mh21: looks like it successfully saves changes out to the file
<mh21> Riddell: cool, I hadn't tried that
<mh21> Riddell: I don't know what to do about the dialog though
<dholbach> Mithrandir: enjoy it.
<infinity> Keybuk: It's not rocket science to switch back to the wireless if the wired doesn't work, I don't see it as being a particularly bad default to attempt the switch.
<Keybuk> infinity: but you don't need to drop the wireless to attempt the switch
<Keybuk> it's a different interface
<Keybuk> thus the bad design
<Keybuk> you can bring eth0 up while eth1 is still up
<Keybuk> and then just bring eth1 down if eth0 comes up ok
<infinity> And then swap the gateways?
<infinity> (you generally want to delete your default route before you go configuring an interface that will give you a new one)
<Riddell> mh21: I think just leave it like that
<Keybuk> infinity: the second the new default route comes up, you drop the old one
<Keybuk> that's not hard
<Keybuk> or you just make whatevers sets the new default route (dhclient) drop the old one first
<Keybuk> you don't need to drop it *before* you start a potentially lengthy configuration process
<ogra> doesnt that happen anyway ? 
<ogra> if i have a configured interface with route, the new one overrides the old one
<Riddell> pitti: what's the status of cups 1.2 rc2?
<ogra> iirc the kernel picks the first default route from the table, no ? 
<pitti> Riddell: I half-asked mdz for approval some hours ago, but I guess he's just too busy; will ask him tonight during/around the meeting
<mdz> pitti: I'm here
<pitti> Riddell: I'd like to upload it ASAP for maximum testing exposure and bug fix time
<mdz> didn't see your earlier message
<pitti> mdz: the one with the champagner, but nevermind :)
<pitti> mdz: it's not an easy decision, I guess; I can send you the changelogs if you want, but I'm not sure whether you would have fun reading it
<mdz> pitti: it's never fun, but I do it anyway because I think it's important ;-)
<pitti> mdz: the feedback so far has been promising, though; a few problems were reported; I fixed some of them, and I strongly suspect that many of them already exist in our current version
<pitti> mdz: alright, I'll extract the svn changelog and mail it to you
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  ping
<pitti> oh, and 1.2rc3 should be due tomorrow
<dholbach> bluefoxicy: he went to eat something
<bluefoxicy> ah
<janimo> should announcements for the derivatives go each separately to ubuntu-announce?
<pitti> Riddell: did mh21's patches do more KDE goodness?
<Riddell> pitti: mh21's patches seem to be working well but I don't actually have a printer here to test them
<Riddell> I need to try and borrow a printer from somewhere
<bluefoxicy> dholbach:  we were talking about some stuff with livecds, I'm trying to build a livecd from scratch based on a design spec I wrote from scratch, was hoping he could give me some input
<ogra> janimo, i was told edubuntu would be included in the announcements from flight6 on
<mjg59> Keybuk: It doesn't actually look terribly hard to implement that behaviour
<dholbach> bluefoxicy: ah
<Keybuk> mjg59: and I've not even STARTED on other stupid behaviour
<ogra> i'm a bit disappointed since i havent prepared an announcement now, but edubuntu isnt mentioned
<Keybuk> like if I log off, and my mother logs on
<Keybuk> IT'S DROPPED THE NETWORK CONNECTION!"(*$(!*$
<janimo> ogra, so what do you do now ;) ?
<bluefoxicy> dholbach:  how exactly does the ubuntu livecd creation process work these days anyway?
<mjg59> Keybuk: That's a more general issue than nm
<ogra> janimo, preparing an announcement and send it tomorrow i think :(
<Keybuk> mjg59: how is that a general issue?  that's nm dropping the network connection
<janimo> ogra, but are the ISOs ready?
<mjg59> Keybuk: The general issue is that we have nothing to define policy when no user is logged in
<mjg59> The same applies to power management
<dholbach> bluefoxicy: I can't tell, sorry - and I think it's a bit too much to explain here on IRC - even if I had more of a clue about it.
<Keybuk> yes we do
<ogra> janimo, and ? 
<ogra> janimo, they'll be there tomorrow as well 
<Keybuk> we can have a system default policy
<mjg59> Keybuk: No, we can't
<Keybuk> why not?
<janimo> ogra, why wait till tomorrow? 
<Keybuk> that's a bit of a self-limiting decision
<mjg59> Because the infrastructure for implementing that isn't there
<bluefoxicy> dholbach:  nod.
<ogra> separate announcements have the advantage that you get recognized
<mjg59> That's not a failure of nm, it's a failure of our current dbus infrastructure
<Keybuk> that's only because these things have been written wrong :)
<mjg59> It's getting fixed
<ogra> janimo, because i need someone to proofread it, because i tested isos the last nights and am tired etc
<Keybuk> anyhoo, food, I skipped lunch and am hungry
<janimo> ogra, ok
<ogra> janimo, additionally you will get more attention tomorrow than you'll get today where everybody is thrilled about ubuntu itself ;)+
<janimo> heh
<janimo> not if edubuntu and kubuntu announce tomorrow :)
<ogra> i guess Riddell will announce today
<ogra> if he recognized he needs an own announcement :P
<Riddell> yeah, I'm just finishing it off
<ogra> ah
<janimo> of course we could just let people poke around the site find them and spread the word :)
<janimo> great, I need more than one announcement to copy paste from
<ogra> thats not good from a promotion POV :)
<Riddell> janimo: http://kubuntu.org/announcements/dapper-beta.php
* Diziet sees from scrool that the archive is unfrozen again.  Excellent.
<Kamion> yep
<ogra> Diziet, we'll have to talk about the recent firefox homepage desaster we have in xubuntuu and edubuntu 
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: pong?
<mdz> Riddell: is your draft announcement in the wiki?
<dholbach> Diziet: there seems to be a fix upstream for one of the gtkmozembed problems, it seems - maybe we should take a look at it? mozilla bug 312998
<Ubugtu> Mozilla bug 312998 in Embedding: GTK Widget "fix gtkmozembed's EmbedWindow::GetVisibility" [Major,Assigned]  https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=312998
<ogra> mdz, is there a particularf reason that we use separate announcements again ? 
<ogra> -f
<Riddell> mdz: http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/671490
<Riddell> mdz: feel free to put it on the wiki if you have changes
<mdz> ogra: because they have different audiences, and thus different content
<ogra> mdz, hmm, i thought we'd go with the flight6 format from now on
<ogra> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-April/000062.html
<mdz> Riddell: please add the usual disclaimer about universe
<Riddell> mdz: "unsupported" or is there something longer?
<ogra> its a bit tricky to follow if we go back and forth i policy ... so we'll keep separate announcements in the future ?
<mdz> ogra: feel free to combine your announcement with janimo and Riddell
<ogra> mdz, i dont care, i was just thinking we'll stay with that policy ...
<Riddell> I like having a separate announcement for the beta/final thing, stops it being overshadowed by ubuntu
<mdz> Riddell: adventurous users can try foo and bar, which are not part of this official release but may be found in the unsupported 'universe' archive
<ogra> yep ... i just remeber we had that discussion and jdub wanted to set up a wiki structure so we need only one announcement and have details on the wiki
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  hi :)
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  are you busy atm?
<pitti> mdz: It just came to my mind that for the final announcement we should point out which subset of packages is supported for 5 years
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: not just now, no.
<ogra> (which i thought mgalvin's work was for)
<Mithrandir> mdz: thanks for not having a meeting tonight.
<mdz> ogra: for big announcements I think it's worthwhile for the core to have a dedicated announcement, but I'm happy for the derivatives to announce together
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  did you want to take a look at any of the stuff I was writing up the other day re the livecd discussion?
<mdz> Mithrandir: my pleasure
<pitti> yeah, there wouldn't be much to report anyway apart from holidays, CD testing, and last-minute bug fixing :)
<mdz> pitti: good call
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: I've been a beta release mode for the last couple of days, so no, not really.
<ogra> mdz, no, i'm fine with writing my own announcement its just that there were so many different ideas around it ...
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  if you want to discuss anything we should probably go to #-offtopic; I don't have a clear reason to rework UBUNTU's livecd process and don't feel like making any kind of argument unless I have a real reason
<pitti> mdz: maybe we should add a link to the list of packages, or (crazy, but worth discussing) we could drop the non-server packages to universe after 3 years
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  ah, okay, another time then.
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: have you written it up somewhere?
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: oh, sorry, I misread what you wrote.
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: I read "did you read", not "did you want to read".   Yes, I'd love to read what you wrote.
<Mithrandir> s/wrote/have written/
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  ah okay
<Mithrandir> sorry, my english is kinda broken today; getting tired.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  i've got a file on my hard drive I can either send or pastebin.. heh if you want to rest we can do this another time ;)
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: pastebin's fine.
<mdz> pitti: crazy :-)
<pitti> mdz: but not entirely unappealing, right? :)
<Riddell> mdz: with that change am I good to post the kubuntu announcement?
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  http://rafb.net/paste/results/a0Nj5f40.html  Needs work, particularly I need to define exactly what the "Bootstrap Modules" should expect to be guaranteed.
<bluefoxicy> but that's the basic idea
<mdz> pitti: we've agreed that we can't really define support in terms of packages and components; the support team is going to provide more detailed definitions
<mdz> Riddell: still reading
<carlos> pitti: ping
<mdz> Riddell: OK
<Riddell> thanks
<pitti> carlos: pong
<carlos> pitti: do you language packs support zope localizations? like plone, schoolbell, etc..?
<carlos> or should I prevent them to be exported to the language pack?
<bddebian> Howdy folks
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: I'm a bit unsure what your goal si; this is how dsslive works today?
<bluefoxicy> dsslive?
<nomed> Mithrandir: i guess bluefoxicy doesn't know anything about it :)
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: sorry, there were some people yesterday or a few days ago who talked about dsslive, a system very similar to what you're sketching out.
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: I didn't remember if you were one of the people or not.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  my goal is to be able to modify some of the underlying LiveCD logic by dropping in scripts on top of a well-defined API (i.e. Zenity is there; bash is there; busybox is there..); the idea is that a quick script in i.e. /modules/bootstrap/1/ could make /root persistant, /modules/bootstrap/2/ could make home persistant, etc.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  I'm the kind of guy who likes to make things where anything you want to do to it is a plug-in or add-on or extension or script or whatever you want to call it
<bluefoxicy> what is dsslive?
* bluefoxicy google
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: just a second.
<mdz> Seveas: Ubugtu admonished me for changing the topic of #ubuntu-meeting; who do I talk to to get the calendar feed corrected? (no distro team meeting today)
<dholbach> mdz: fridge-devel@?
<Seveas> dholbach, correct 
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir: http://www.dsslive.org/mediawiki/index.php/How_To:_Lazy_Mode  ?
<nomed> bluefoxicy: do not expect good performances from such design
<bluefoxicy> yeh
<nomed> as i told the other day ... having just one squashfs file is much better
<slomo> today's daily live works perfect on my ibook g4 btw ;)
<bluefoxicy> I don't see how this helps you do things like i.e. download a LiveCD, then download a module that adds i.e. security tools on top of it, and merge the two; or do a persistant home via 1 script; etc.
<bluefoxicy> but eh.
<nomed> bluefoxicy: i mean having just one squashfs file on the cdrom
<mdz> dholbach: thanks
<bluefoxicy> nomed:  I meant dsslive :p
<dholbach> mdz: de rien
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: you're aware that casper has a casper-premount and casper-bottom for which roughly corresponds to your level 0 and 1?
<bluefoxicy> nomed: and yeah I'm aware of what the implications are.
<jsgotangco> goodnight
<ogra> night jsgotangco 
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  interesting.  Is it possible at that point to add other things to the CD, i.e. unionfs mount a source file from /media/usbdisk as the overlay instead of a tmpfs?
<jsgotangco> happy beta day! :)
<mdz> hmm, I unfortunately I don't think people are reading the release announcement
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  without making massive modifications or such
<mdz> still more downloads of install than live
<ogra> jsgotangco, to you too !
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: you can mount something on top of /root, sure.
<mdz> renaming the files for final should help with that
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  cool.
<mdz> live-i386 is only 610MiB? that's excellent
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  I still want to do a GUI boot though :)  and a few other things.
<mdz> plenty of room for langpacks
<Mithrandir> mdz: we removed OOo-winfoss some time ago.
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: why do you want X in there?
<mdz> Mithrandir: yes, but I thought we'd filled more of the space we recovered
<doko> mdz: could we go on with ttf-dejavu (2.5)?
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  For no real reason.  Well, I determined Xlibs + GTK+ + Zenity + Kdrive VESA might fit in 2 megs compressed but...
<ogra> the a11y stuff ate ~20M on my iso scim and the asian fonts also need some space... we filled a lot again ...
<pitti> ugh, it took a while to repair the nvidia module; espresso installed system seems to break l-r-m
<pitti> carlos: no, langpacks just support gettext based apps so far
<pitti> carlos: zope & friends have their own translation system AFAIR, right?
<carlos> well, they use the same gettext system but with a different locale layout
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: You're adding a lot of complexity for no reason, then?  If you just want stuff to look pretty, usplash basically does that already.
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  I'm doing this mostly for fun, just trying to see if there's anything I can do along the way unique.  Graphical boot-up, interactive scripting, a LiveCD authoring system that works entirely on feeding it a kernel .deb and dropping into a shell multiple times, LiveCD extensions on USB disk, etc
<fabbione> mdz: we need community time to understand the install from LiveCD thingy
<carlos> pitti: using they own gettext implementation using python
<carlos> s/they/their/
<fabbione> mdz: s/need/need to give/
<bluefoxicy> Mithrandir:  Yeah but in usplash I can't add a script that pops up a window saying "Found these extra modules on USB drive, please check off which ones you want to load" or other crazy things.
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: I prefer to try catering for real use-cases to avoid a second system effect.
<sladen> bluefoxicy: RH's splash system is X;  it adds ~45seconds to the boot process
<bluefoxicy> sladen:  kdrive
<ogra> kdrive == X :)
<bluefoxicy> it'll add probably 10 seconds if that :)
<sladen> bluefoxicy: gtk on framebuffer might be a better bet
<sladen> bluefoxicy: time it and find out :)
<bluefoxicy> sladen:  yeah, I'm only guaranteeing API wise that GTK/Zenity are around.
<mjg59> sladen: Not really, since vesafb breaks suspend/resume
<Mithrandir> mjg59: that's not a huge concern on livecds yet, though.
<bluefoxicy> if I can figure out how to do GTKfb (i've seen qtparted qt/FB and gparted gtk/fb on System Rescue CD) I'll probably step back to get rid of the 2 megs of xlibs/kdrive
<mdz> janimo: how is xubuntu looking?
<sladen> mjg59: I didn't say anything about vesafb
<Mithrandir> bluefoxicy: I have to go now, we can talk further tomorrow?
<bluefoxicy> sure
<mjg59> sladen: vesafb is the only real option in most cases. With the exception of radeonfb, the others tend to be terribly restricted in hardware support or reliability
<sladen> mjg59: for what bluefoxicy wants gtk on vga16fb with a 14-colour brown-and-black theme would work 
<mjg59> sladen: X doesn't run on vga16fb, AFAIK
<bluefoxicy> gtkfb doesn't exactly need X o.o
<KaiL> http://picpaste.de/dapper-language.png uhm? ;)
<mjg59> But it does need at least vesafb
<bluefoxicy> yeah
<KaiL> looks, like language selection is broken in the live-cd?
<seb128> how so?
<seb128> you need to run apt-get update to have a list of language for it
<KaiL> hmm.. not really self explaining
<seb128> no, it's not
<seb128> it could probably use an "update list" button or something
<sladen> mjg59: if it needs vesafb then it's broken and should stick to the standard kernel framebuffer interface
<KaiL> I thought, there are at least some localisations already on the CD?!
<mjg59> sladen: All the framebuffer interface gives you is a window into the ram on the card
<mjg59> If you want to use vga16fb, you still need to write vga code
<mjg59> There's nothing in the kernel to do the mode masking crap
<sladen> mjg59: byte-swapping bit-planing crack?
<mjg59> That sort of madness
<mjg59> libbogl is the only framebuffer code that works with vga16fb
<sladen> ...currently works...
<sladen> and even then, not particularly efficiently
<mjg59> It could be better
<mjg59> But there is no "standard kernel framebuffer interface"
<mjg59> It just happens that most graphics hardware provides a linear framebuffer that corresponds directly to the screen...
<KaiL> seb128, imho the installer should do that without any user interaction. And bring a list of the languages available, if you have no internet
<seb128> right
<seb128> ping mvo about it
<fabbione> mdz: according to my torrents there are more people downloading live than install
<jdub> hrm
<jdub> this is interesting
<fabbione> by about 20%
<jdub> postfix is not logging
<mdz> fabbione: yes, it seems to have changed
<jdub> probably since being logrotated this morning
<jdub> but... it doesn't log after a restart either
<lamont> jdub: all of postfix, or just the chrooted daemons?
<lamont> how about stop/start?
<jdub> yeah, did both restart and stop/start
<jdub> appears to be nothing
<lamont> neato
<jdub> s/nothing/all of postfix/
* lamont decides that he needs food.
<jdub> hmm
<jdub> syslog is zero length too
<jdub> no syslog running
<jdub> wow
<jdub> suck
<dieman> fabbione: heh, i should have fired up the torrents on our mirror too
<dieman> fabbione: just did and its throwing a megabyte/sec at em already
<KaiL> are there absolute numbers, about how many people try the beta compared to Flight-releases or breezy? ;)
<fabbione> yeah
<fabbione> KaiL: it's impossible to track
<fabbione> not in the way in which we push to the world at least
<KaiL> maybe just compare a single server? ;)
<dieman> there
<dieman> the torrents fired up so fare are doing 2.2MB/s
<jjesse> i'm getting good download speeds for both live and regular 70kb/ss
<dieman> whats the tracker address, anyhow -- does it have stats up?
<jdong|laptop> congratulations, everyone, on the beta release
<jdong|laptop> just hear
<jdong|laptop> heard*
<dholbach> night guys
<ogra> dholbach, eh, youre still here ? i thought youre already heavy partying with doko :)
<tseng> bye dholbach 
<Burgwork> jdub, where are we at with the ubuntu-website mailing list
<jdub> Burgwork: sort of waiting on a "YEAH!" response from heno
<jdub> Burgwork: it's up to him
<Burgwork> jdub, ah, ok
<janimo> mdz, I am now writing the announcement, the images look good from the testing of the past days
<janimo> hmm, who can set up the mirrors for xubuntu too?
<mdke> jdub, planet is missing a favicon in my rss reader, any chance of adding one? Hardly a big deal, but if you know how, it would be nice
<janimo> I cannot link to different mirrors for different geographic locations if xubuntu is not mirrored :)
<janimo> I guess I can just provide the main site only as there are not going to be too many downloads
<janimo> re;atively speaking
<mdke> Burgwork, there is going to be an ubuntu-website mailing list? cool
<Burgwork> mdke, planned, needs ok from heno
<mdke> nice idea
<Burgwork> mdke, yes, we need a forum, because the website needs work but a lot needs to be discussed before striking out
<LaserJock> Burgwork: at this point who has access to changing the website?
<Burgwork> LaserJock, a few of us
<mdke> Burgwork, I was thinking of a sprint
<mdke> especially for things like basic structure, which needs plenty of work
<LaserJock> mdke: sounds like a good idea
<janimo> proofreading needed, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XubuntuBetaReleaseNote
<janimo> thanks
<janimo> proof-editing even better ;)
<ivoks> greetings developers of the best operating system in the worl
<ivoks> d... :)
<Burgwork> mdke, that would be great. I wonder if I could get the time off for that
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<zyga> hello folks
<pitti> heya zyga
<mdke> hey pitti 
<pitti> hi md
<pitti> hi mdke 
<mdke> pitti, what's the reason that sexy global cups browsing thing you showed me earlier isn't active by default? is it insecure in some way?
* dieman too.
<dieman> its default working in OSX
<pitti> mdke: it's against our 'no open ports in the default install' policy
<dieman> i'll note
<mdke> pitti, even for desktops?
<dieman> can't you leave browsing on for the client withuot leaving a port open, or no?
<pitti> mdke: yes
<mdke> pitti, so, it is insecure?
<pitti> dieman: no, cups browsing is designed to require a listening port on the clients
<dieman> eh?
<dieman> i'll test it at home
<dieman> but im pretty sure it doesn't
<spacey> its really easy to turn on
<pitti> mdke: well, only potentially
<spacey> btw
<dieman> oh no
<dieman> it does
<spacey> ^_^
<dieman> n/m
<pitti> dieman: it is
<dieman> i thought i had browsing on
<pitti> dieman: servers announce their printers with UDP broadcasts, and clients need a listening port to collect them
<dieman> but it got turned off again
<pitti> it's quite reciprocal to the usual client/server paradigma
<dieman> cupsd     15766     cupsys    2u     IPv4    2539605                 UDP *:ipp
<dieman> yeah
<pitti> but scales better
<mdke> pitti, so should a user activate a firewall of some kind if they open that?
<pitti> mdke: there are no actual known vulnerabilities, and as soon as there are, we'll fix them; it's just a good default security principle
<mdke> pitti, ok
<pitti> mdke: cups has its own ACL lists, but merely opening the port could you expose to DoS attacks, if not worse
<pitti> mdke: the worst possible impact is full control over your printing configuration and access to printers
<pitti> mdke: ubuntu doesn't run cupsys as root, so the impact is pretty confined
<mdke> right
<pitti> (we are probably the only distro that does that, though)
<mdke> pitti, thanks for the explanation.
<pitti> you're welcome :)
<dieman> i can't quite think why i thought it wouldn't need a port open, either ;)
<pitti> dieman: in theory you could also design it the other way around
<pitti> dieman: i. e. clients regularly poll for printers
<dieman> yeah, but you'd still have to discover a server
<pitti> dieman: and the server has an open port which responds
<dieman> i guess you could do that too
<pitti> dieman: but that wouldn't scale well with 100 clients and 1 server
<dieman> but then it would feel a lot like a SMB network :)
<janimo> mdz, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XubuntuBetaReleaseNote
<pitti> dieman: yes, a lot of useless noise :)
<janimo> I guess  I could send to u-a since it is moderated and no improper content would pass?
<dieman> 
<dieman> sorry, was testing our radius/wpa admin scripts and had locked myself out of the network :)
<dieman> hit spacebar tring to bring my ssh session back
<_ion>  3234 root      17   0  251m 114m  636 S  8.6 30.5  24:01.85 brltty
<_ion> How nice.
<mvo> _ion: people are working on this, AFAIK the latest upload should fix the problem 
<mvo> ping smurf
<_ion> Ok, i'll try upgrading tomorrow.
<_ion> Does it fix the problem by not starting brltty unless requested, or by fixing the specific code that eats all that memory?
<mvo> _ion: AFAIK both, but dholbach uploaded it, so I'm no authority here .)
<_ion> Ok. :-)
<zyga> hey mvo 
<mvo> hey zyga
<wasabi> apt.cache.Cache... hmm. This usable? :)
<zyga> dieman: hmm, does wpa work out of the box on dapper?
<mdke> it depends on whether the rest of your computer is working or not
<zyga> mdke: ?
<mdke> zyga, hi
<zyga> :-)
<dieman> zyga: yes, with ipw2200 it does.
<dieman> zyga: it depends on your wireless card
<dieman> ive not yet tested anything but ipw2200
<HWolf> dieman, ipw2200 is "intel centrino" right?
<tseng> it is part of that brand, sure
<tseng> the brand is only a few steps more meaningful as a technical description than ".NET"
<Treenaks> tseng: or 'web 2.0'
<tseng> right
<tseng> HWolf: if you are wondering if you have one, lspci | grep ipw2200
<Treenaks> had a presentation about Web 2.0 at work last week... Hype-o-rama
* _ion is using Web 3.0
* Treenaks is using trans-web 1.0
<HWolf> tseng, just figuring out what to buy, that's all. :)
<Treenaks> _ion: btw, won't Web 3.0 be called 'w3b' ?
<lifeless> moin moin
<ajmitch> morning lifeless 
<bddebian> Heya lifeless, ajmitch
<j^> does anyone know by chance if dom/nsIDOMElementCSSInlineStyle.h is missing from firefox-dev or if there is another reason for it only beeing in mozilla-dev?
<lamont> sigh.  brltty taking ttyS0 is really fun when that's the serial console.
<CarlFK> dapper ubuntu-server - the default apache page is not the default apache page - is that worth buggin?
<CarlFK> it is "Index of /" of who knows where cuz it didn't install openssh-server ;)
<_ion> lamont: Upgrade. It's not started by default anymore.
<lamont> CarlFK: and it won't installe openssh-server, either
<lamont> it also shouldn't have an apache server listening on the network by default either...
<CarlFK> whoops - not jsut u-server, the LAMP option 
<lamont> ah, that'd be "more" :-)
<sivang> night all
<lamont> night simira 
<lamont> er, sivang 
<sivang> lamont: night lamont :)
<CarlFK> dapper-server LAMP - any idea where the mysql conf file is? 
<_ion> Dapper should offer LAPR instead of LAMP.
<CarlFK> R? 
<CarlFK> posgres and ruby?
<_ion> Yep.
<_ion> On Rails, preferably.
<TomB|> CarlFK: /etc/mysql/my.cnf
<CarlFK> cnf.. right... I was loking for conf
<CarlFK> hmm, I dont find that either 
<CarlFK> there is no /etc/my*
<CarlFK> ls: /etc/my*: No such file or directory
<CarlFK> I am starting to think there is no mysql anything
#ubuntu-devel 2006-04-26
<robertj> CarlFK: do not try to bend the server for thal is impossible
<CarlFK> robertj: ?
<mdke> you might want to file a bug if you've found a problem
<robertj> CarlFK: sorry, needless Matrix joke
<CarlFK> robertj:  ah - havn't seen 2 and 3 yet
<CarlFK> mdke: having trouble believing there is no MySql  ;)
<mdke> CarlFK, in that case, for help, you can ask in #ubuntu
<robertj> CarlFK: just a variation on the there is no spoon theme
<CarlFK> or #u-bugs... which I keep forgetting about
<Chipzz> CarlFK: do dpkg -s mysql-server first
<Chipzz> CarlFK: what does that give?
<CarlFK> Package `mysql-server' is not installed ...
<CarlFK> thanks - thats a confirmation I can cut/paste 
<Chipzz> CarlFK: there's your problem; unless you have mysql4-server or mysql5-server
<CarlFK> no php4/5 either...
<CarlFK> maybe they meant la Server
<jsgotangco> good morning
<ajmitch> hi jerome
<zul> Kamion: question...why is their a reiserfs4 option when creating a partition in expresso when there is no kernel support in ubuntu's kernel by default?
<bddebian> Heya folks
<Burgundavia> mako: you around?
<jdub> ha ha
<jdub> "13:16 <@jrb> no.  though that would be kinda cool.  I want to send it to foo@webwnk.net and have that be resent to a bunch of other people
<jdub> boh
<jdub> not htat
<jdub> Ars Technica: "Next major Ubuntu release to have worst name yet"
<Gman> jdub, it's kinda true!
* jdub kicks Gman in the pants
<Gman> eft sounds more like a name for your crack
<Gman> still, nice strategy to have fun for the next release
<jdub> when it was first decided, i started making lame puns with words that included 'eft'
<jdub> like
<jdub> dapper has eaten into the edgy release cycle, we'd better be dEFT
<jdub> gotta get the cool stuff, don't want to be lEFT behind
<Gman> you need to get out more
<jdub> yo' jus' jealous, solaris boy :)
<Gman> heh
* Gman will be jus' jealous when oracle buys ubuntu ;)
<womble> Looking long-term, what's going to be the upgrade plan from Dapper to the next long-support release?  Will it be possible to go direct from one to the other, or will you need to step through all of the intermediates, like you do at the moment?
<jdub> womble: i believe we're going to try to provide a direct upgrade path
<jdub> (thoughts may have changed on that without me knowing though)
<womble> I doubt you're going to get too many admins happy with doing 5 upgrades to go to the next long-stable release, and requiring a reinstall just seems so Slackware.  It'll need a fair bit of fiddling to make upgrades work well across that much technology change, though.
<womble> On the other hand, Etch will probably just have been released, so you can base your upgrade fu on the Sarge->Etch upgrade.  <grin>
<wasabi__> Buh. I just made this nice gtk.Window, and now I need to turn it into a gtk.Dialog
<wasabi__> (or magically add a run() method that works how I want it to)
<Amaranth> gtk.Dialog's have children already
<wasabi__> yeah i know. i like the work flow though.
<Amaranth> you like having it block the main app, you mean?
<wasabi__> Naw, ya can just call run() and program flow continues right after.
<Gman> Amaranth, i just tried to install alacarte - noticed i had to comment out the #gtk.glade.bindtextdomain('alacarte') in DialogHandler.py to get it to run :/
<Amaranth> err
<Amaranth> what happens if you don't?
<Gman> Gman Traceback (most recent call last):
<Gman> Gman   File "/usr/bin/alacarte", line 22, in ?
<Gman> Gman     from Alacarte.MainWindow import MainWindow
<Gman> Gman   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/vendor-packages/Alacarte/MainWindow.py", line 28, in ?
<Gman> Gman     from Alacarte.DialogHandler import DialogHandler
<Gman> Gman   File "/usr/lib/python2.4/vendor-packages/Alacarte/DialogHandler.py", line 24, in ?
<Gman> Gman     gtk.glade.bindtextdomain('alacarte')
<Gman> Gman MemoryError: Not enough memory available
<Gman> :/
<Gman> also get a bunch of -
<Gman> Gman /usr/lib/python2.4/vendor-packages/Alacarte/MainWindow.py: inconsistent use of tabs and spaces in indentation
<Amaranth> *boggle*
<Gman> Gman /usr/lib/python2.4/vendor-packages/gtk-2.0/gtk/__init__.py: inconsistent use of tabs and spaces in indentation
<Gman> Amaranth, yeah, that's what i thought ;)
<Gman> Amaranth, this is on solaris fwiw
<Amaranth> yeah, i noticed :P
<Gman> which may be different on the whole gettext foo stuff
<Amaranth> dunno
<Amaranth> the tabs and spaces thing is crack
<Amaranth> because it's lying
<Gman> heh
<Amaranth> (i just checked)
<Amaranth> as for the MemoryError, i've honestly never even seen that exception :)
<Mez> heya Travis, how's things ?
<Gman> Amaranth, ok, no worries - seems to work removing the line, so ..
<Amaranth> good
<Amaranth> Gman: i think that'll break translations
<Gman> my only half thought was doing nm on /usr/lib/python2.4/.../gtk/glade.so
<Gman> which gives -
<Gman> [85]     |         0|       0|FUNC |GLOB |0    |UNDEF  |bindtextdomain
<Gman> which doesn't look too healthy :/
<Amaranth> dunno what that means but it doesn't look good
<Amaranth> Mez: got a new release of alacarte out today :)
<Mez> Amaranth, ooh, shiny
<Amaranth> already found one bug when you use Human (icons are the wrong size)
<Amaranth> i blame Human for not having 24x24 icons for the menus :P
<jdub> BenC: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.15/+bug/40478
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40478 in linux-source-2.6.15 "Promise TX4300/4310 driver update" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
<fabbione> morning
<wasabi__> Crud. I need a quicky hint. Generating an apt archive to do some testing of gapti. Trying to generate/sign releases. I generate it... it only has one entry for Packages.gz, fine. Sign it, apt-get update.
<wasabi__>  Unable to find expected entry  Packages in Meta-index file (malformed Release file?)
<wasabi__> Using apt-ftparchive
<wasabi__> Ahh I see.
<rohan> is there a specific reason why the dapper live cd doesnt have gcc installed/available ?
<seth> rohan, sudo apt-get install build-essential ?
<rohan> seth: i know i can install it. but it was there on all versions starting from warty !
<TheMuso> rohan: Most users do not need a compiler, and those who do generally know how to install it.
<rohan> TheMuso: but what if those who do dont have net access ?
<rohan> and taking in account the 650mb limit, we still have 40 mb .. enough for build-essential
<jdub> b-e was in ship, but i don't believe we have ship on the livecd
<rohan> oh, ok, jdub 
<rohan> atleast putting those pkgs in /var/cache/apt/archive would help, forget installing 
<rohan> or its still not feasible ?
<Chipzz> ugh
<Chipzz> does anyone have any comment on: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xfree86/+bug/38624 ?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 38624 in xfree86 xlibmesa-gl-dev "no packages contain libGLw.so and dev headers" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
<Chipzz> the headers can be found in libgl1-mesa-swrast-dev though...
<wasabi__> Awesome. My gapti program works successfully. Anybody want to try it? :)
<rohan> wasabi__: whats gapti ?
<rohan> like gdebi ?
<wasabi__> Yup.
<wasabi__> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt
<rohan> ok
<wasabi__> package is in my bazaar, builds to a .deb, installs, and pretty much works. ;)
<rohan> yes, i read all that :D 
<rohan> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GAptI
<wasabi__> You'll want to test with http://akita.larvalstage.net/~wasabi/gapti-repos/photoshop.apt
<rohan> wasabi__: what does that install ? photoshop ? o.O
<rohan> wasabi__: and, i am on the live cd now, so i cant test, will install soon, and then do it :)
<wasabi__> Naw, it's just a bunch of BS empty packages.
<wasabi__> Labeled "photoshop" because it's a good example.
<Chipzz> wasabi__: no offence meant, but how do you intend to make ISV actually *implement* your proposal?
<wasabi__> I don't.
<wasabi__> Obviously it needs mindshare. ;0
<Chipzz> I mean
<Chipzz> allmost all of them ship tar.gz's or self-extracting shellscripts
<wasabi__> it beats distributing .tar.gz or shell scripts.
<wasabi__> I know.
<wasabi__> That does their own users a disservice.
<Chipzz> they have no smegging clue at all
<Chipzz> I agree
<wasabi__> Sure. Hey, don't get me wrong. I don't think I'll wake up oe morning and see everybody using this.
<Chipzz> but... what cluebat are you/we going to use? ;)
<wasabi__> But having the tools out there, and having ubuntu sanctify it as the "best official way", actually helps.
<Chipzz> wasabi__: for example, nvidia doesn't acknowledge the existance of debian or ubuntu packages in their readme
<Chipzz> (supposed they are aware of them)
<wasabi__> That's unfortunate.
<rohan> Chipzz: do thay acknowledge existence of _any_ packages ?
<Chipzz> rohan: yes, suse packages
<Chipzz> which I think they build theirselves
<wasabi__> Chipzz: Honestly, Vmware is my prefered starting company to yell at. ;0
<wasabi__> Because I download workstation updates every few weeks. ;)
<wasabi__> And ya'll are "nice."
<Chipzz> wasabi__: at least they have enough clue to make it a gtk+ 2.0 app ;)
<rohan> Chipzz: ewwwwwwww.. rpm !
<rohan> Chipzz: not even fedora ?
<wasabi__> Either way, this .apt crap actually would work for RPMs
<wasabi__> You'd just use apt-rpm.
<Chipzz> rohan: not sure; read the readme ;)
<rohan> Chipzz: i dont use nvidia drivers :D
<wasabi__> One link, you click on it, yes, it has to have seperate compiled versions for your distro, but I suspect that's not That Bad.
<wasabi__> Either way it's a seperate problem.
<Chipzz> wasabi__: but you know... I think there's another (bigger) issue alltogether
<Chipzz> wasabi__: ISV's don't *want* to *support* our packages
<Chipzz> support being the imperative word here
<wasabi__> Let them support their own.
<wasabi__> Like they do on every other OS.
<wasabi__> Obviously there is some software where that makes sense, and some where it doesn't.
<Chipzz> wasabi__: they do support their tar.gz's or self-extracting shellscripts
<Chipzz> 07:43 < wasabi__> it beats distributing .tar.gz or shell scripts.
<Chipzz> ;P
<Chipzz> errr
<Chipzz> that last one was an unfortunate paste ;)
<wasabi__> If VMware were to publish .debs, installed this way, they'd be doing their customers a service. They'd need to test them on an Ubuntu box.
<wasabi__> I suspect they test their shell scripts there anyways.
<Chipzz> I suspect the issue here is "more work"
<Chipzz> wasabi__: don't get me wrong, I think gapti is an *excellent* idea :)
<wasabi__> Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think it's that big of a deal. Ubuntu is a large installed base. It makes sense for somebody to spend 24 hours to polish the install for them.
<wasabi__> I mean, what, third largest distro? If you can't spend 24 hours to make a few .debs for the third largest distro, we've got bigger problems.
<Chipzz> wasabi__: btw, how does this integrate with gnome-software-manager?
<wasabi__> Doesn't yet. Will talk to mvo.
<wasabi__> I suspect all the software needs to do is install a .desktop file, and then they'd be able to uninstall from there
<HrdwrBoB> wasabi__: third?
<HrdwrBoB> http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity
<wasabi__> Hah nice.
<wasabi__> anyways, POINT MADE
<wasabi__> I don't know if it'll h elp. Having the servicve out there to be consumed by those smart enough to use it sounds like a good thing to me.
<wasabi__> It can be promoted as the proper way to deliver software to, at least Ubuntu. There's some pushing we can do with vendors there, certainly.  heck windows makes everybody sign drivers now.
<wasabi__> This is light compared to that. ;0
<wasabi__> Also they gain a free auto update service (apt).
<wasabi__> Which saves them time making their own. Maybe that equalizes? Got me.
<Chipzz> wasabi__: have you taken a look at /usr/share/update-manager/channels/*info ?
<wasabi__> yeah. I took a look.
<wasabi__> Looked a bit half baked.
<wasabi__> I named my dialog "Channel" though. :0
<Chipzz> yea maybe :)
<Chipzz> but it would be nice to have one format, instead of 2
<wasabi__> Yeah, I agree. The channel thing however doesn't really have a lot to do with a specific package being installed.
<wasabi__> gapti is just proof of concept anyways. I want to get some people interested.
<Chipzz> well, who says only one package would be in a gapti repository^Wchannel? ;)
<wasabi__> me.
<wasabi__> Doesn't really make much sense other wise.
<Chipzz> vmware for example could have multiple packages in there
<Chipzz> vmware-workstation, vmware-server, etc...
<wasabi__> I'd have them make a .apt file for each "logical product" they have.
<Chipzz> wouldn't that be a bit silly? ;)
<wasabi__> Run gapti, you'll see where im going with the UI
<wasabi__> It checks out, intalls, and works pretty easily.
<Chipzz> debs available? ;)
* Chipzz runs :)
<wasabi__> Naw. bzr checkout, debuild -us -uc ;)
<wasabi__> I want the whole .apt file part to be invisible to the user. What they are doing is clicking on a link to install a product they just bought.
<Chipzz> shouldn't the first .apt file be gapti.apt? ;)
<wasabi__> heh no
<wasabi__> So, After purchasing vmware workstation, you'd have a Click Here to Installl.
<Chipzz> except that it's free nowadays ;)
<wasabi__> You'd have to go buy vmware-server to have a link for it.
<wasabi__> Yeah, except that haha
<Chipzz> wasabi__: btw, check pvt ;)
<wasabi__> I'm not really even thinking about stuff like nvidia.
<wasabi__> We package their stuff, and I like it that way for now.
<wasabi__> Since they don't even support their own software, actually.
<wasabi__> ... you ever seen a nvidia tech support line for their drivers for any platform?
<Chipzz> internal bug-tracking system, "it will get fixed 'in a future release'", stuff like that?
<wasabi__> This may suck, but I'm really more concerned with commercial ISVs.
<wasabi__> ie non-open source.
<Chipzz> uhu
<Chipzz> but, I'm wondering
<TheMuso> vmware free? I thought you still had to buy it.
<wasabi__> open source stuff gets packaged in Ubuntu and other distros just fine.
<wasabi__> And that's cool, because it can be supported centrally.
<Chipzz> why are you concentrating on single packages? the format on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ThirdPartyApt mentions channels, and a single package may have a chain of dependencies anyway
<wasabi__> Because the point is to satisfy a use case... a user buys software and clicks on a link to install it.
<wasabi__> Underneath sure, that may have deps.
<wasabi__> And may be many .deb files, but the user is really only aware of a single logical product.
<wasabi__> behold the photoshop example.
<wasabi__> I'm not just trying to give a user a more convient way of browsing software offered by a repository. We already have 20 of those.
<Chipzz> I was thinking about the following approach: have a superset of the channel .info format, in which you specify one or more packages (not the dependencies); user clicks on that, file gets download and the channel .info subset gets written in /usr/share/update-manager/channels/, you get the standard gnome-software-properties 'add channel' dialog, user selects components, clicks ok, you run apt-get update, user gets a second dialog with 
<wasabi__> Oh, yeah, don't get me wrong, I want to reuse the gnome-software-properties UI pieces... and all of that. They just aren't done yet.
<wasabi__> .info files too.
<wasabi__> They also aren't currently reusable. ;)
<wasabi__> So I whipped up my own.
<Chipzz> uhu :)
<wasabi__> gapti right now has a dialog that asks you if you are sure you want to subscribe to the channel.
<Chipzz> so, like I said in private, the .info format has its deficiencies...
<wasabi__> That should totally be the same UI in g-s-p.
<wasabi__> The .apt files right now are pretty simple too. Just a simple multi-stanza dpkg format file with basically filters.
<wasabi__> In fact they look quite a bit like the .info files.
<wasabi__> i need one file for all distros though.
<wasabi__> .info doesn't quite fit right with that.
<Chipzz> why?
<wasabi__> Web page can't usually properly detect the user's OS/distro. I mean, it could.
<wasabi__> But it would suck.
<wasabi__> So the .apt file can have a stanza for redhat, one for ubuntu, and one for debian.
<wasabi__> And the proper stanza is chosenl
<Chipzz> uhu
<wasabi__> what hte heck does 'uhu' sound like?
<Chipzz> like: "you're right" :)
<Chipzz> (yeah)
<wasabi__> Also, different apt lines for different releases of distro.
<wasabi__> dapper, breezy, etc.
<Chipzz> would they have to be different?
<wasabi__> Just like companies now maintain win9x and winnt and win2k and winxp versions of some of their software.
<wasabi__> They'd have to do the same with our point releases.
<Chipzz> except for the dapper/breezy part that is
<wasabi__> yeah of course, since it doesn't exist yet heh
<Chipzz> couldn't you just list the releases elsewhere?
<Chipzz> ie on a different line in your file?
<wasabi__> That's basically what I do.
<Chipzz> I should probably read the wiki ;)
<wasabi__> yeah. ;0
<wasabi__> Run it yet?
<wasabi__> My favorite part is how I'm (ab)using Recommends/Suggests.
<wasabi__> probably exactly how they were intended to be (ab)used. ;0
<Chipzz> not yet ;)
* Chipzz off to sleep in a short while anyway ;)
<wasabi__> ahh
<Chipzz> but I'll definately take a look later
<wasabi__> oh also .apt files deliver gpg keys
<wasabi__> for apt-key
<Chipzz> now *that* is nice :)
<wasabi__> and the entire file is signed by the same key
<wasabi__> so you can at least guarentee that the repository you are adding has the same key as the file you downloaded
<Chipzz> aha
<Chipzz> mesa build allmost done :)
<wasabi__> me->bed
<wasabi__> night
<Chipzz> night :)
<pitti> Good morning
<Treenaks> Any X gurus in the house^Wchannel? :)
<Treenaks> (if there are, could you please look at bug 20283? :))
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 20283 in xserver-xorg-driver-ati "[fgl v5000]  really bad sync" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/20283
<fabbione> Treenaks: hell.. please stop pushing bugs here.. :)
<Treenaks> fabbione: ok :)
* Treenaks moves to #ubuntu-bugs
<fabbione> Treenaks: i upload a nerw version of the driver 20 minutes ago..
<fabbione> does it fix?
<Treenaks> fabbione: No
<Treenaks> unless.. *hmm*
<fabbione> how could you have tested it, if it hasn't been published on archive yet?
<Treenaks> didn't get that new one yet :) are there more changes than are noteed in the changelog, or is that the only one?
* fabbione larts Treenaks with a cluebat
<fabbione> there are 2 changes
<Treenaks> fabbione: OK.. the GART thing might be related..
<carlos> pitti: ping
<dholbach> HAPPY HUG DAY
<mdke> morning dholbach 
<mdke> happy hug day to you too
<dholbach> hey mdke :)
<pitti> hey carlos, moin seb128
<carlos> pitti: I'm still fixing translation domains exports from Rosetta
<seb128> hi carlos pitti
<carlos> pitti: and I detected that your report says that the buildd output includes some man pages using .po files to translate
<carlos> seb128: hi
<carlos> pitti: and also, you are including translation domains from universe, like beagle
<pitti> carlos: oh, these are probably superfluous in the final langpacks
<pitti> carlos: beagle is in main (the source)
<carlos> oh
<carlos> hmmm
<pitti> carlos: we only filter by source, not by binary
<seb128> carlos: we build nautilus by example with libbeagle
<carlos> is there an easy way to see if a sourcepackage is in main?
<carlos> I was using apt-get search
<pitti> carlos: apt-cache madison srcpkg
<carlos> but that's for binaries...
<carlos> pitti: ok, thanks
<carlos> seb128: I see
<pitti> it works as well with binary packages, it figures out the corresponding source package
<seb128> carlos: apt-cache showsrc beagle | grep Directory
<carlos> pitti: also, I'm preparing a list of translation domains that I don't know where they come from and thus, I cannot import them into Rosetta... I will send you the list when I'm done with it
<pitti> carlos: yes, then I'll check their origin
<carlos> pitti: thanks
<seb128> pitti: is there a plan for weekly translations update or something from now?
<pitti> carlos: it's very likely that the heuristics in my script picked up some wrong ones
<seb128> pitti: that would have be nice to get updates before beta by example :/
<pitti> seb128: no problem from my side for that
<carlos> pitti: I will provide you also the list of invalid .pot files, don't worry
<carlos> seb128: I think that's doable
<mh21> pitti: morning
<mh21> pitti: What's broken with cups auth?
<pitti> mh21: hey Mischa
<carlos> the language pack exports from Rosetta are working daily
<pitti> mh21: I saw your upstream bug report :)
<carlos> and most .pot files are already imported
<carlos> still need to import some .po files
<pitti> mh21: local authentication works fine (through gnome and the command line tools), it's just the web frontend auth that's busted
<carlos> but that will be appearing over time until Dapper release
<pitti> mh21: it works fine if cupsd runs as root, but instead of not doing admin jobs at all if it runs as cupsys (like in breezy), it just does them without ever asking for auth
<pitti> mh21: the idea is to disable admin stuff in the web interface by default, and reenable it with sudo adduser cupsys shadow, so that cupsd can read the passwords
<pitti> mh21: now that beta is out, this one is very high on my list of stuff to fix :)
<pitti> carlos: what's the latest word wrt. KDE import?
<seb128> pitti: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/hal/+bug/40437 
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40437 in hal "backport CVS code for is_mounted_read_only property" [Normal,Confirmed]  
<mh21> mh21: so running cups as root should make it at least authenticate?
<seb128> pitti: if you have some minutes for that today ... :)
<mh21> pitti: so running cups as root should make it at least authenticate?
<carlos> pitti: all .pot files are approved, I'm setting the flag to get them exported as part of the language packs now
<pitti> seb128: oh, sorry for that
<pitti> mh21: yes
<seb128> pitti: sorry for what?
<pitti> seb128: for delaying it that long
<pitti> seb128: is that the same issue you pointed me to maybe two weeks ago?
<seb128> pitti: hum, I send the bug before going to bed, I would not call that delayed ... :)
<carlos> pitti: there are some .po files that are not yet imported, but I already wrote code to fix that and it should land on production anytime soon (Tuesday as the worst case)
<seb128> pitti: probably yep
<seb128> pitti: I've the patched package ready for upload, I just want your opinion before uploading, should be fine imho
<carlos> pitti: would you do the same kind of report you send for dapper but for hoary and breezy?
<pitti> carlos: ok, then let's schedule new packs next Wednesday; seb128, is that fine for you?
<seb128> pitti: yeah, works for me
<carlos> pitti: I would fix those too 
<pitti> carlos: I can't; my script doesn't support buildd extraction for stables, just for the very latest tarballs
<carlos> pitti: also, we should try to release a monthly update for those releases, now that language packs start to be stable enough...
<carlos> pitti: hmm
<carlos> ok
<carlos> Is there anyway to fix that?
<pitti> seb128: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/nautilus-list/2006-March/msg00046.html <= that's still on my list, that was the mail you pointed me to two weeks ago
<pitti> seb128: so that's the same issue
<pitti> carlos: right
<seb128> pitti: correct
<seb128> pitti: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/nautilus-list/2006-March/msg00045.html has the patch and is the mail to read about it probably
<seb128> (I've pointed it on the bug)
<pitti> seb128: looks straightforward enough, fire away :)
<seb128> pitti: what I though, thank you ;)
* pitti -> breakfast
<dhonn> hey how hard would it be to put the Text-Mode Install CD on the Desktop Live CD?
<fabbione> not too hard assuming a 1.2GB CD
<fabbione> oh hold on..
<fabbione> that's like the DVD :)
<dhonn> it should have both on one cd under 650 mb
<fabbione> impossible
<fabbione> there is no space
<TheMuso> The live CD can install now anyway.
<TheMuso> With espresso.
<dhonn> it should be easy to put all this on one cd... i mean it should be able to load a text and graphical interface 
<HrdwrBoB> it should be
<HrdwrBoB> but it's not.
<Mithrandir> dhonn: not if you want it to boot in a sensible amount of time.
<jdub> Mithrandir: a text-based espresso frontend would be interesting (and amusing)
<jdub> (not that i really care, but it would be interesting)
<jdub> (livecd install uber alles, etc)
<Mithrandir> jdub: apart from the a11y benefits, I don't really see a point?
<jdub> Mithrandir: it'd be an amusing abuse of the espresso/d-i relationship
<jdub> i don't think there's much point either
<jdub> apart from theoretical interest value
<TheMuso> d-i could be given a11y for the console, but that is not exactly an easy task.
<TheMuso> However not possible for low vision users and those with motor difficulties.
<TheMuso> AFAIK.
<dholbach> hey jdub!
<jdub> it would be easier to give a11y love to the espresso experience
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: why would it be particularly hard?
<jdub> yo dholbach 
<dholbach> how's it going?
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: FOr speech, one firstly needs to include ALSA drivers, and have some way of accessing the speech synthesizer, which would not fit into the initrd image.
<TheMuso> And since festival/flite are rather big...
<TheMuso> I was for a while investigating a cludgy implementation, but there were a few too many points of failure for it to be usable in all cases.
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: there's a brltty-udeb
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: That doesn't take care of speech however.
<mh21> pitti: Normally, access to http://localhost:631/admin/conf/cupsd.conf fails; with usermod -aG shadow cupsys it works
<mh21> pitti: How is it supposed to be?
<pitti> mh21: hm, indeed
<pitti> mh21: however, adding a printer does not require any password
<mh21> pitti: local auth?
<pitti> mh21: not through TCP
<Keybuk> WTF is brltty
<pitti> mh21: local auth with the certificate works with the gnome tools and command line tools only
<Keybuk> and why is it using all of my CPU and MEM ?
<seb128> Keybuk: because you didn't update to the "fixed" version dholbach uploaded yesterday?
<Keybuk> seb128: I'm updating now ... I was wondering why APT/dpkg were so damned slow
<mh21> pitti: I think it is more along the lines of AuthType Basic, Require user @SYSTEM in /etc/cups/cupsd.conf:<Location /admin>
<pitti> mh21: indeed
<pitti> mh21: that's why you can use any lpadmin user in the http auth dialog
<pitti> mh21: the point is that it doesn't appear if you run cups as non-root
<mh21> it does when you insert these two lines in the admin section
<mh21> pitti: its not there normally
<pitti> mh21: hm, it's for me, in the <Policy default> section
<pitti> ah, I see what you mean
<pitti> mh21: still strange that it works as root then
<jordi> pitti: how hard is it getting to get fixes in dapper?
<jordi> pitti: for trivial stuff like dictionaries
<pitti> jordi: not hard at all
<jordi> ok
<pitti> mh21: upstream's default is to not restrict the mere access to /admin by default, but just require authentication for the 'commit' actions - i. e. when you configure a new printer, you can click through all the steps, and just the final 'do it' button asks for auth
<pitti> mh21: that's why Location /admin is not resticted, just e. g. CUPS-Add-Printer is
<mh21> pitti: I'll look into the policy authentication...
* pitti hugs mh21
<pitti> mh21: I'll do so too ASAP, I have the Debian packages for comparison here
<pitti> Kamion: good morning! are you already awake?
<\sh> morning
<\sh> guys, do we have an nfs mountable ubuntu archive?
<Kamion> pitti: hi
<pitti> hi Kamion 
<pitti> Kamion: can you join #ubuntu-desktop for a moment, please?
<Mithrandir> doko: re bug 40338 ; that's an xresprobe bug and basically how X config works.  (Which is somewhat broken for LCD panels)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40338 in Ubuntu "amd64-live - 1920x1200 screen detected as 1600x1200" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40338
<Mithrandir> doko: and it's a duplicate, but that's ok.
<doko> ok, thanks for looking
<dholbach> ogra: dia 0.95.0 is in incoming
<dholbach> ogra: and it closes loads of bugs
<Diziet> ogra: re the firefox homepage, did you read the mails from yesterday ?
<ogra> dholbach, yes, yes, i'll create a syc bug :)
<ogra> Diziet, before i can read mail, evo needs to be fixed ...
<ogra> i'll care for a replacement today, sorry, couldnt read mail the last two days :/#
<Diziet> ogra: :-/
<Diziet> OK, well, we have a planned answer.  Only the package dependencies need to be decided on.  I was going to write it up on the wiki page and implement it (in m-f-l-all at least) ASAP.
<mdke> Diziet, I'm slightly worried that the ed/k/xubuntu-docs maintainers will not be keen on doing all the symbolic links, do you think it is a sane solution?
<ogra> Diziet, my prob is, that we use the ubuntu-docs package, so just conflicting wont work
<Diziet> mdke: Why is it so hard to do these links ?  It's about 4 lines of your favourite scripting language.
<Diziet> ogra: You really need to read these emails.  Bear with me and I'll put them on a web page.
<ogra> Diziet, i need my mailer, so i'll have to solve it today... 
<mdke> Diziet, fine by me, as long as they don't mind doing it. It's right that there needs to be a link for every mfla locale? if so, we'd probably need a way to figure out when some of those are added to make sure that the link gets created for the new locale
<ogra> (i get at east 400 mails a day, i dont want them to stack up :)
<Diziet> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~ijackson/d/ubuntu-docs-firefox.txt
<Diziet> mdke: There needs to be a link for every locale listed in the list on the wiki page.
<Diziet> If the *-docs maintainers don't want to do it then I could do it myself.
<Diziet> It might be quicker and easier for one person to do it anyway.
<mdke> Diziet, right, so when that list changes?
<Diziet> That way we can test it locally without having to break everyone's firefox for a day due to the path being wrong.
<Diziet> mdke: The wiki page has a process for changing the list, which tells you what to do in what order.
<Diziet> But we need to think about the dependencies.
<Diziet> I'm tempted to just ditch the dependencies and if you install partial updates or something you just don't get a homepage.
<Diziet> Since the system is otherwise quite useable.
<heno> Kamion: xcursor-themes have been approved for main, but hasn't yet been moved in there. Can you help with that?
<Diziet> The problem being that the dependency is really difficult to express.
<heno> It is useful for the hight visibility theme setup
<Kamion> heno: yeah, I'll do anastacia processing in a bit
<mdke> Diziet, how about "depends on xubuntu-docs or ubuntu-docs or kubuntu-docs or edubuntu-artwork"?
<Kamion> I obviously wasn't doing it during the beta freeze
<heno> Kamion: ah, ok thanks
<Diziet> mdke: That's not right, because it has to be specific versions and it's not `or', it's `whichever of *-docs is going to win the alternative needs to be at least xyz'.
<pitti> Hi Diziet 
<mdke> Diziet, gosh
<Diziet> I think it would be expressable with Breaks and versioned Provides, but we don't have either of those.
<Diziet> pitti: Hello.
<pitti> Diziet: do you have some minutes today to speak about gs-gpl vs. gs-esp?
<Diziet> Sure.
<Diziet> In terms of ReducingDuplication, you mean ?
<pitti> yes
<pitti> Diziet: I just checked dependencies
<pitti> Diziet: the only package that b-deps on gs-gpl without alternatives is quagga
<pitti> I guess for building documentation and such
<pitti> Diziet: do you see any reason to keep gs-gpl in main? i. e. does it have anything gs-esp hasn't?
<Diziet> Yes.  It has a different set of bugs.
<pitti> hpijs and scribus prefer gs-gpl over gs-esp, but have proper alternative dependnecies
<Diziet> Unfortunately the gs area is a mess because it's not clear what upstream is.  I hope gs-esp is going to win but in the meantime I think we need to provide gs-gpl so that users who find that gs-esp breaks have a workaround.
<Diziet> Possibly quagga's docs triggered some gs-esp bug in an earlier version.
<Diziet> Or possibly it predates gs-esp.
<pitti> Diziet: but it seems that most users will only have gs-esp installed anyway, since most packages alternatively depend on it
<dholbach> Diziet: had any time to look at mozilla bug 312998? it has a patch which might fix up one of the gtkmozembed problems
<Ubugtu> Mozilla bug 312998 in Embedding: GTK Widget "fix gtkmozembed's EmbedWindow::GetVisibility" [Major,Assigned]  https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=312998
<pitti> Diziet: under the assumption that quagga works with gs-esp (i'd change it to b-dep: gs-esp | gs), would you still keep gs-gpl in main?
<Diziet> pitti: I think I would keep it in main, yes.
<nomed> hi all
<Diziet> dholbach: I was just reading that.
<nomed> the bug #40418 has been reported in xubuntu-meta ..
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40418 in xubuntu-meta xubuntu-live "xubuntu live cd fails to display desktop correctly" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40418
<Diziet> I'm not sure of the connection.
<nomed> should i move it somewhere else ?
<dholbach> Diziet: ah ok. Just wanted to make sure you knew about it. :-)
<Diziet> Thanks.  But do we have any reason to think this is responsible for our crash ?
<Riddell> Keybuk: your kcontrol.postinst fails with "rmdir: /etc/hotplug/usb: Directory not empty"
<dholbach> Diziet: this problem seems to show in devhelp (not sure if it fixes other issues) - devhelp displays a really weird "start up page" due to that and I'd trust chpe with his patches, he's epiphany upstream and dug himself into quite a lot of mozilla problems.
<Keybuk> Riddell: bah :)
<Keybuk> forgot an || true?
<dholbach> Diziet: So, I don't think that's a crash, it fixes.
<Riddell> Keybuk: that would work, I'll add that
<Diziet> dholbach: Right.
<ogra> Diziet, ok, read the thread, thanks for uploading it
<Diziet> ogra: NP
<Keybuk> Riddell: already added and uploaded
<Diziet> dholbach: I think I should put mozilla 312998 on my ff to-fix list though - the patch looks sane.  So thanks.
<Ubugtu> Mozilla bug 312998 in Embedding: GTK Widget "fix gtkmozembed's EmbedWindow::GetVisibility" [Major,Assigned]  https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=312998
<ogra> Diziet, edubuntu rlies on the ubuntu server documentation, so both packages need to be installable alongside ... the idea with the directory sounds intresting, can FF handle that ? 
<dholbach> Diziet: Thank YOU!
<Diziet> ogra: FF doesn't care.  Before I sent the mail I did test that the alternatives system works with directories.
<ogra> cool
<ogra> then lets do it like that ! :)
<pitti> Diziet: oh, btw, do you have updating to ffox 1.5.0.2 on your list? I'll mail you the CVE list shortly
<ogra> the current system would require that all systems have exactly the same amount of translated pages, else you flip over to another page :)
<Diziet> pitti: Yes, I do.  And yes, please, thanks.
<Diziet> pitti: For form's sake, have you already requested and got a uvf exception ?  Not that we have much of an alternative ...
<pitti> Diziet: no, I didn't
<Diziet> pitti: OK.
<Diziet> ogra: No, because of the symlinks, you can fall back to English for the cases where there is no translation.
<ogra> Diziet, on edubuntu it uses the translated ubuntu page if available 
<ogra> i only have the edubuntu page in english installs
<Kamion> Keybuk: rmdir --ignore-fail-on-non-empty is better than || true
<Diziet> ogra: That's because we haven't implemented yet what is described in that mail chain.
<Keybuk> Kamion: does that work in busybox?
<Kamion> Keybuk: no, but who cares in postinst scripts
<ogra> Diziet, thats why i talked about "the current system" ;)
<Diziet> Yes, we know it's broken.
<pitti> Diziet: mailed
<Kamion> Riddell: I'm doing the espresso => ubiquity rename at the moment; you might want to not accumulate any changes in your branch, otherwise your merge will be very complicated
<Kamion> $ bzr diff | wc -l
<Kamion> 35724
<Diziet> OK, I'm not imagining it.  I don't have a mail telling me who to ask about a UVF exception.
<Diziet> I suppose I'll just wibble here and hope some poor sod pipes up.
<Kamion> Diziet: see DeveloperResources
<Kamion> in the "Freezes" section
<Diziet> dholbach: Unfortunately that gtkmozembed upstream bug seems to be languishing.
<Diziet> (The crash one, 325884)
<dholbach> mozilla bug 325884
<Ubugtu> Mozilla bug 325884 in Embedding: GTK Widget "race? crash in EmbedPrivate::Realize with gtkmozembed" [Critical,New]  https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325884
<dholbach> that's quite unfortunate :-/
<dholbach> I wonder why they didn't ask for more debugging symbols.
<mdz> Keybuk: should we add an external tool somewhere for creating /var/run directories in the appropriate manner?
<Riddell> Kamion: ok, let me know when I'm good to merge
<Diziet> Kamion: Ah, thanks.  I've added some cross-references to the wiki.
<Keybuk> mdz: I've been thinking about that
<Diziet> dholbach: I'm tempted to try to set up helgrind.
<dholbach> Diziet: I suppose 'helgrind' is not a typo. :-)
<Diziet> Apparently not ...
<Diziet> Although the thought of running mozilla under an obscure but strict validator isn't giving me a good feeling.
<Kamion> Diziet: thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: all the dependencies would be sort of a pain though
<Keybuk> Launchpad has suddenly lost its monospace-ness for the text entry box
<Keybuk> Diziet: is that a firefox bug?
<Diziet> I don't think it should be.
<Diziet> But I wouldn't rule it out.
<Keybuk> seems they're using
<Keybuk>   font-family: sans-serif;
<Keybuk>   font-family: caption;
<Diziet> Well, that's not my fault then, at least not entirely :-).
<Keybuk> yup
<Keybuk> sticking font-family: monospace !important; in my "make LP not suck" stylesheet fixed it for me
<Keybuk> Diziet: apparently it's your fault for not picking the right "caption" font
<mdz> pitti: is cups basically maintained by one person upstream?
<mdz> pitti: I think every commit in that changelog was by the same person
<pitti> mdz: yes, Michael Sweet
<pitti> mdz: there are some contributors, mainly from Apple, but mikes commits everything
<Diziet> I have no idea what `caption' is.
<pitti> mdz: i. e. patch proposal go through bug reports (STRs)
<Keybuk> Diziet: whatever font the GUI is using
<Keybuk> apparently
<Keybuk> so for me that would be "Sans 8"
<Keybuk> the font it's picked looks terrible; (a) it's a Serif font, and (b) it looks more like one of those silly printing fonts than one designed for the screen
<Fjodor> Hi. Though this isn't a support channel, I'd like to report a problem. Only thing I did to cause it was dist-upgrade to dapper. Now I can't enter Danish chars in emacs, and most graphical apps report "Warning: locale not supported by Xlib, locale set to C"
<Diziet> Though it isn't a support channel, you would like support ?  Sorry, but it's still not a support channel even for you.
<Keybuk> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/firefox-font-bug.png
<pitti> Keybuk: hm, what is this /var/run/cups chgrp'ing to 'lpadmin' fixing?
<Keybuk> pitti: the fact that /var/run was in the wrong group?
<mvo> Fjodor: does it help if you run the language-selector again?
<Fjodor> Keybuk: No, I don't seek an answer right now, but would like to report it as a problem
<Diziet> Keybuk: That's pretty cruddy, yes.
<pitti> Keybuk: ah, so really just cosmetics? or had it some actual impact?
<Diziet> Hrm.  Are you sure about that css ?
<Keybuk> pitti: wasn't aware of a bug, but I figured there could be one, so fixed it anyway
<Keybuk> Diziet: yes, the CSS looks ok
<pitti> Keybuk: ok, thanks
<pitti> since it's 0755, it shouldn't matter
<Fjodor> Keybuk: Oh, sorry. Read the lines wrong...
<Fjodor> Diziet: : No, I don't seek an answer right now, but would like to report it as a problem
<Diziet> Keybuk: No, what I mean, is are you sure that that's what the CSS says the font should be.
<Keybuk> Diziet: yeah, used dominspector on it
<Keybuk> firefox thinks the font should be "caption"
<Diziet> I say `fc-match caption' and it wants to use DejaVu Sans.
<mdz> Keybuk,Diziet: speaking of which font the GUI is using, my firefox has been doing this all week: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/temp/Screenshot.png
<Keybuk> quest scott% fc-match caption
<Keybuk> DejaVuSans.ttf: "DejaVu Sans" "Book"
<mdz> I have no idea how it chooses that font
<mdz> but it's ginormous
<Diziet> Keybuk: You want `caption:anymetrics=1' at the very least.
<mdz> it's only my profile which is busticated
<Keybuk> Diziet: huh?
<Diziet> What do you have set in the fonts preferneces ?
<Keybuk> assume I know nothing about font selection
<Diziet> (And damn, the font prefs box is still too damn small!)
<Keybuk> Diziet: http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/firefox-fonts-prefs.png
<mdz> absolutely everything with 'font' in the name under about:config is set to default
<Diziet> Keybuk: Not you, I can reproduce your LP problem.
<Diziet> mdz: That's nice.  Ummm.
<Keybuk> Diziet: by the magical process of going one-by-one through the font list, I can tell you that it's picked FreeSerif as my font-of-choice for textarea
<Diziet> mdz: What about the dpi setting ?
<mdz> Diziet: 72
<Diziet> Is that correct ?
<mdz> which is pretty close to correct for my laptop display
<mdz> which is 14" diagonal, 1024x768
<mdz> aha, setting that to 96 (default) fixes it
<mdz> how ridiculous that a lower dpi setting causes larger fonts to be used; that's backwards
<mdz> Diziet: thanks
<Diziet> The whole dpi thing is a complete nightmare.
<Keybuk> mdz: what's your font-render
<mdz> it doesn't take effect until firefox is restarted
<Keybuk> ignore that
<Diziet> We've made rendering randomly break for the vast majority of people who want fonts to be a particular size in pixels, to make life easier for the few people who can afford absurdly high res displays just to make it pretty.
<mdz> how have we done that exactly?
<Diziet> By making things depend (in a flakey way) on the (often inaccurate) dpi setting.
<lifeless> Diziet: most screens sold these days are > 100 dpi
<Diziet> lifeless: Surely not.  Most of them are LCDs nowadays ?
<lifeless> also note that gnomes handling of DPI is rather broken.
<lifeless> even though X often gets it right
<lifeless> Diziet: yes, and the resolutions they are selling at are high dpi - my last three laptops have all been > 100 dpi, without me trying for that specifically.
<lifeless> last one was 144, current one is 120
<dholbach> pitti: you have time to join us at the HUG DAY in #ubuntu-bugs?
<lifeless> I dont recall the last time I saw a < 100 dpi new machine of any sort.
<mdz> lifeless: I'm typing at one right now
<Diziet> I don't think most people are buying such fancy laptops :-).
<pitti> dholbach: I'll join and try to read a bit
<Keybuk> Diziet: >100 dpi screens are standard these days
<lifeless> mdz: ok, I've seen one now :)
<Keybuk> even on the cheap laptops
<Diziet> Pretty much all desktop flatpanels are more like 72.
<lifeless> Diziet: Seriously, not fancy to get this.
<mdz> and in fact I just had a friend return a laptop because the display resolution was too high
<lifeless> mdz: wow.
<Keybuk> Diziet: my cheap desktop panel is 120 dpi or something
<mdz> he's a web designer, and needs to see things layed out similarly to most casual users
<Diziet> 1280x1024 and really tiny ?
<mdz> laid
<lifeless> mdz: yah. dpi matters tonnes. I find things are usually ok if I go into every possible place and set it to match the hardware
<lifeless> but thats asking a lot of users
<mdz> lifeless: that'll still never give you a good correspondence between images and text on web pages
<lifeless> images have a defined dpi
<lifeless> let me grab the reference
<mdz> you need to use larger fonts to make things readable, and that'll change the ratio
<mdz> images for the web are usually ~72dpi
<lifeless> larger font? I usually run at 7pt these days
<Fjodor> mvo: Thanks for suggesting, but no. And Danish chars actually work fine in other apps, just not emacs
<Keybuk> the whole dpi/font thing is a mess
<Keybuk> especially not helped by gnome hard-coding it at 96dpi for everything because "most monitors lie"
<lifeless> mdz: the /defined/ dpi for gif etc images is 72 dpi, and browsers are expected to scale the images.
<jdub> are malone+reportbug doing useful things for us in dapper?
<lifeless> Keybuk: 100% ack on that
<mdz> lifeless: they don't, and if they did, it would look like crap anyway
<dholbach> jdub: no.
* jdub furrows brow.
<Keybuk> jdub: rewriting reportbug from scratch would be a large task
<Keybuk> despite some people's claims to the contrary, it isn't generic and "pluggable"
<Kamion> jdub: Malone's mail interface needs a GPG signature; if that weren't the case it would be fairly trivial
<jdub> Keybuk: it can't mail to some useful malone entry point?
<jdub> Kamion: aha
<lifeless> sorry, my bad - 96 dpi is the reference.
<jdub> is that fixable?
<lifeless> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#x39
<Kinnison> Kamion: I thought malone no longer required gpg sigs
<Kamion> it's policy ...
<Keybuk> jdub: reportbug does a huge amount of wget and grep on the web interface to offer lists of packages, currently open bugs, etc.
<Kinnison> Kamion: but I might be wrong
<Kamion> Kinnison: on new bugs, AFAIK, it does?
<Kamion> maybe that's changed
<Keybuk> Kamion: if you think it's trivial, *you* can rewrite reportbug
<mdz> Kamion: removing that requirement would be trivial as well, if not for the fact that we don't accept anonymous or unauthenticated bug reports
<Kamion> Keybuk: I've hacked reportbug in small ways before, it's not hard to make it talk to a slightly different mail interface. you're right that the web interface munging is hard to change
<Kamion> but disabling that would be better than the current situation
<Keybuk> Kamion: whoever's been maintaining reportbug recently has been making it very hard to bypass the web interface stuff
<mdz> lifeless: everyone I know who publishes web content for a broad audience would disagree; I think it's safe to say that your hardware purchases (and most of the rest of ours) are atypical
<jdub> Kamion: (i didn't expect to hear complaints about it as often as i have)
<Kamion> AFAIK the person who's been maintaining it recently is the same person who always has; have you talked to him about it?
<Keybuk> personally I think we should just drop reportbug
<lifeless> mdz: I can agree that our purchases may be atypical. But I'm not sure that the atypicality we display implies that the 'typical' purchase is still 96 dpi.
<lifeless> anyway, I've injected the info about the standards that I wanted to
<Keybuk> the only useful purpose reportbug serves is for allowing Debian developers to file bugs into the Debian bts
<lifeless> so it over to you guys 
<Keybuk> likewise "bts"
<Keybuk> I would be surprised if there's anyone here who hasn't got "bts debian" in their .reportbugrc
<Mithrandir> .reportbugrc? :-P
<mdz> Keybuk: I agree that shipping reportbug by default has turned out to be not such a good idea
<Keybuk> reportbug isn't that useful for us
<Keybuk> it's handy in Debian where the BTS has requirements about package names, versions, tags, etc.
<Keybuk> Malone doesn't have any of that; you just give the name of the package and the bug description
<mdz> it's handy in Debian where it can talk to the bug tracking system
<Keybuk> dholbach: ping
<dholbach> Keybuk: pong
<Keybuk> dholbach: is it easy to turn Tango icons into Tangerine icons?
<Keybuk> and how would I get icons added to both themes?
<dholbach> Keybuk: you might want to ask andreasn or lapo - they really know their stuff.
<Keybuk> where would I find them?  they're not on here
<dholbach> Keybuk: for tango upstream mailing list or bugs.freedesktop.org
<Keybuk> gnargh
<Keybuk> that's not really the kind of answer I was hoping for
<Keybuk> this is Ubuntu-specific really
<Keybuk> nm ships GNOME-style icons
<Keybuk> someone's done Tango-style icons for it
<Keybuk> and obviously we'd want Tangerine-style
<dholbach> Keybuk: for tangerine branch from http://daniel.holba.ch/bzr/tangerine/ and tell Andreas Nilsson to merge from it or file a bug in launchpad for tangerine-icon-theme
<Keybuk> how do I get it to have all three?
<mdke> how does one file a bug about words which aren't in spell checkers? Go straight upstream to openoffice, or to launchpad?
<dholbach> tangerine-icon-theme bug report
<Kinnison> mdke: people have been filing bugs in launchpad for aspell dictionaries
<Kamion> BenC: linux-source-2.6.15 FTBFS on i386, if you didn't see; I'd like to avoid NEWing the others until i386 is fixed, if you don't mind
<Keybuk> what about tango?  tango-icon-theme bug report?
<Mithrandir> mdke: depends on the language, I'd guess.  Most aren't built by ooo upstream.
<Kinnison> mdke: but I have yet to work out how to add them sanely
<mdke> Kinnison, openoffice uses a different dictionary, doesn't it?
<Kamion> oh, but it's a weird segfault on the buildd, hmm
<Kinnison> mdke: not sure
<mdke> bah, /me just adds the word
<Kamion> hmm, maybe not, looks like a file that the doc processing system wants got moved
<Mithrandir> mdke: ooo uses myspell
<mdke> Mithrandir, ok. Is there a good reason there is more than one type of dict?
<mdke> gah, openoffice itself seems to have three potential dicts to add words to: standard.dic, Ubuntu.dic and soffice.dic. Confusing...
<Mithrandir> mdke: unsure, I just maintain the Norwegian dictionary and build them all from the same source.
<Kamion> heno: please arrange for xcursor-themes to be added to some appropriate seed; we don't generally promote things until the seeds tell us to
<heno> Kamion: so that would be the desktop seed then, since it should appear when choosing F5-option 1
<Keybuk> hmm
<Keybuk> I wonder if I ship the icons as /usr/share/icons/Tango (as well as /icons/hicolor) does that work?
<Kamion> heno: that sounds reasonable
<Lathiat> a
<mdke> pitti, my computer appears not to have remember that I activated cups detection yesterday. I had to activate it again today. Known?
<Kamion> heno: although check with the desktop team
<Keybuk> hmm
<Keybuk> how does hicolor work?
<heno> Kamion: ok, I've pinged dholbach about it
<Keybuk> I have my icon theme set to "GNOME", so how do the hicolor icons get picked?
<Diziet> Well, the use of `caption' as a `font-family' is wrong according to CSS 2.1.
<pitti> mdke: no, actually not
<mdz> BenC: i386 kernel build failed after 4 hours, https://launchpad.net/+builds/+build/186668
<pitti> mdke: before and after you enable it, what's the contents of /etc/cups/cups.d/browsing?
<pitti> mdke: /etc/cups/cups.d/browse.conf even
<mdke> pitti, I'll do a bug with that info. Anything else you want?
<pitti> mdke: your main /etc/cups/cupsd.conf could be interesting, if you modified it
<mdz> BenC: looks like the kernel itself built fine but docproc segfaulted
<mdke> pitti, no, haven't touched anything
<pitti> mdke: I still have to test browsing and such with the latest version, but thanks for the bug
<jdong> are there any updates on us and the new fglrx?
<holy_cow> mornin guys
<holy_cow> i need to add some icons to the top gnome panel via command line ... where is that config stored?
<Treenaks> holy_cow: in gconf
<Treenaks> so you should/could use gconf-editor and gconftool-2
<Treenaks> (theoretically)
<holy_cow> Treenaks, really?ah!
<holy_cow> well i'm doing this via ssh ... would be neat if i could have a gconf-editor manager remote boxen :)
<holy_cow> k, lemme lookup where this info might be
<holy_cow> thank Treenaks 
<mdke> pitti, bug #40539
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40539 in cupsys "Failure to remember that Browsing was activated" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40539
<pitti> mdke: thanks
<Treenaks> holy_cow: this is more of a #ubuntu question btw, and you might want to look at sabayon too
<holy_cow> really? i didn't think anyone there would have a clue what gconf is :)
<Kamion> Mithrandir: could you please merge http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/casper/ubiquity/ ? We need to coordinate uploads of that and ubiquity (nee espresso), so if you want me to do both of them at once, I can
<Treenaks> holy_cow: really, they do :)
<holy_cow> k. sorry didn't meant to raise the noise level here :)
<pitti> mdke: ok, browse.conf looks fine; does /etc/cups/cupsd.conf include it?
<pitti> mdke: "Include /etc/cups/cups.d/browse.conf" at the very end
<Mithrandir> Kamion: Do you want it done now or soon?
<Kamion> Mithrandir: now's good
<Kamion> Mithrandir: (if convenient)
<Mithrandir> Kamion: I have a few bugs I want to squash in casper, but if you want it now, just upload yourself.
<Kamion> Mithrandir: ok, I'll do it so that we can get the rename out of the way and carry on with real work
<Mithrandir> Kamion: sure.
<mdke> pitti, yes. All of this data is from the situation that it is working, I can't tell you what those files said when I saw the bug
<pitti> mdke: oh, if it's working, then they are useless, right
<pitti> mdke: do they change after a reboot?
<mdke> pitti, no, I can't reproduce it just by rebooting. I think it must have been yesterday's upgrade that did it
<pitti> mdke: hm, yesterdays update did nothing but change the group of /var/run/cups, but that seems quite irrelevant
<mdke> oh
<mdke> pitti, I'm fairly sure I didn't touch anything else
<Kamion> Mithrandir: done. The changelog diff for release is in that branch now as well.
<Mithrandir> Kamion: thanks; merged.
<dholbach> Keybuk: if you want to talk to lapo, he's in #ubuntu-desktop
<Keybuk> dholbach: thanks
<Kamion> mvo: I'm testing a backport of that apt-ftparchive .dsc handling fix now. If it works, would you mind if I uploaded it to breezy-updates, so that we can easily install it on little and maybe drescher and stuff?
<Kinnison> Kamion: changing apt-ftparchive will result in needing to regenerate the caches IIRC
<Kinnison> Kamion: just as a warning
<Kamion> ok - definitely want it on little though, even if not drescher
<mvo> Kamion: just the patch that fixes the issue? sure, uploading it to breezy-updates should be ok
<mvo> Kinnison: I don't think that this is required (if we only backport the fix)
<Kamion> yeah, just that four-line patch or whatever it is
<Kinnison> mvo: drescher currently runs hoary's apt-ftparchive I think
<mvo> only the current (not-yet-released) apt-ftparchive needs cache regeneration
<mvo> oh
<mvo> ok :)
<Kinnison> mvo: because of the bug :-)
* mvo coughs
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: any chance you could look at the a11y-related casper bugs?  (Possibly together with heno?)
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: I'm on it. Just waiting for a package to be promoted to main and seeded to add the final piece to one of the profiles.
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: cool, thanks.
<zul> heylo
<Max_Littlemore> don't mean to interrupt, but is anyone looking at realtime audio? - (it is kind of important now that mac is intel)
<mjg59> Max_Littlemore: Yes, but I don't understand your justification...
<ogra> what makes it more important on mac intels than on other machines ? 
<dholbach> mdke: bug 40492 for you and the gang.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40492 in ubuntu-docs "Error in 4.1.10. Open files with administrative privileges from the file manager" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40492
<jsgotangco> i see it
<dholbach> jsgotangco, mdke: if you guys want me to make an update, that one should be easy to fix with it
<dholbach> and maybe you should make another call for test reading
<jsgotangco> its from the desktop guide nice spotting
<mdke> dholbach, not sure about whether to fix it.
<dholbach> hm? it mentions two different file names
<mdke> yes, it's a bug, but will require a string freeze exception
<dholbach> who approves these exceptions?
<jsgotangco> its an obvious string bug, you're only going to change 1 string it won't even break translations
<dholbach> the release team?
<mdke> dholbach, we kinda decide ourselves
<dholbach> ah i see
<mdke> jsgotangco, it will break the translation, but probably it's worth it at this stage
<jsgotangco> i dunno, your call there's a reason why we're in public beta
<Max_Littlemore> sorry, left the room. mjg59,ogra. Mac has a good history of music types who understand nix bout pootahs making sound. - for me debian is good, but i wish i didn't have to futz around for so long
<Max_Littlemore> we need a new jack
<mjg59> Max_Littlemore: I still don't understand the justification, though I'll agree that it's a worthwhile goal (and is being worked on)
<pitti> oh DEAR
<Mithrandir> hm?
<pitti> mh21_, Keybuk: it seems I finally found out why cups' web interface doesn't ever ask for authentication
<mdz> dholbach: I purged dasher yesterday, but it's still in the menu.   icon cache problem?
<pitti> due to the clever code, the cups server presents its own certifiate to itself and thus accepts everybody
<pitti> GO CUPS
<Mithrandir> pitti: hahahaha. :-)
<pitti> sorry for the noise, but this just drove me up the wall...
<fabbione> pitti: ahahaha
<mh21_> pitti: Why not for root access?
<dholbach> mdz: dasher-data problem
<pitti> mh21_: I assume it tries to setuid() away from root to an user/group which can't read the local cert any more
<pitti> mh21_: and that fails if cupsd already runs as non-root
<mdz> dholbach: aha, thanks
<pitti> mdz: thanks for the approval, btw, I'll upload cups as soon as I fixed this damn authentication bug
<dholbach> mdz: we got a bug report about that - we really should get the automatic apt removal stuff in for edgy :-)
<Keybuk> pitti: lol
<Max_Littlemore> mjg59 if it is being worked on, let me help. (I have a few ideas to make it easier - like a new jack) The justification is that other systems do it 'out of the box'. While this is not Ubuntu's mission, the handles should be created to make it easy. Otherwise, people like me prefer OSX to do audio, and then have to log out to use gaim. WHERE DO i GO TO HELP?
<mdke> dholbach, fixed, but no need to upload unless you want to.
<dholbach> mdke: you have some other good stuff pending?
<dholbach> oh, it's been a week - let's do it :)
<mdke> dholbach, no
<mdke> dholbach, I'm going to upload some translations tomorrow, so you can wait until then if you like
<dholbach> mdke: ok, just drop me a mail, once you did it
<mdke> will do, thanks
<dholbach> thanks
<mdz> dholbach: any reason not to move the .desktop file into the dasher package? it should accompany the executable program
<Amaranth> you could always just hide it with alacarte :)
<dholbach> mdz: hum... yes - it makes sense
<Max_Littlemore> < just wait till you have children - if you have children > hello? -- do we like music>
<tseng> Max_Littlemore: you don't have to exagerate and talk in capital letters to make your point
<Max_Littlemore> I didn't mean to. sorry
<tseng> Max_Littlemore: crimsun is the developer most interested in sound related bits, maybe see if he is interested without pressuring him
<Max_Littlemore> I would like to find crimson... but how?
<jdub> seb128, dholbach: shouldn't python2.4-avahi be in desktop seed?
<Max_Littlemore> newbie to all this anarchy:-[
<tseng> he's right here, probably working on something else right this minute
<dholbach> jdub: what is using it?
<seb128> jdub: anything needs it?
<dholbach> jdub: or for the PythonUberAlles goal? :-p
<jdub> avahi-discover, service-discovery-applet, general python love
<jdub> it should at least be in main
<seb128> avahi-discover is not to desktop
<Max_Littlemore> thank you tseng
<jdub> but i think it's important to have as one of our python developer platform libs
<seb128> bah
<jdub> seb128: python2.4-avahi is stuck in universe atm - doesn't seem right 8)
<seb128> I would rather like have better l10n that ton of useless python if you ask me
<jdub> seb128: well, there is a bunch of junk in there, but avahi is more useful than a lot of the junk python stuff we ship
<seb128> jdub: no, main would be nice. But space on CD is limited ...
<Kamion> bloody hell, the stupid xserver-xorg-input-synaptics version number managed to break source CDs
<seb128> jdub: right, I agree with that
<jdub> bzr is still in universe too
<seb128> jdub: if you find some stuff to clean and put it instead go for it I would say :)
<jdub> seb128: sounds like a challenge
<seb128> yeah
<jdub> hrm, can thoggen use gstreamer 0.10 yet?
<seb128> slomo was discussion with tim__ about that yesterday I think
<seb128> discussing
<jdub> cool
<seb128> avr 20 19:02:42 <sxpert-work>   __tim: how is thoggen 0.10 coming ?
<seb128> avr 20 19:02:44 *       sxpert-work runs :D
<seb128> avr 20 19:02:57 <__tim> sxpert-work: got it working locally, minus cropping dialog and preview
<zul> Kamion: : ping
<Kamion> zul: hi
<seb128> jdub: maybe next week ;)
<zul> why is their reiserfs4 support in the installer when there isnt in the kernel?
<Kamion> zul: bug 32075
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 32075 in gparted "installing to reiser4 partition doesn't seem to work" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/32075
<zul> ah ok...
<jdong> zul: is it a subtle hint that someone wants a certain kernel patch for Edgy? ;)
<jdub> seb128: also, gimp-svg should be added to main/desktop
<Kamion> I certainly hope not
<Kamion> (to jdong)
<jdong> lol
<zul> jdong: no way in hell
<jdong> just a joke, guys
<jdong> take it easy
<jdong> :)
<dholbach> Kamion: did you move xcursor-themes to main yet?
<seb128> jdub: right
<Kamion> dholbach: needs to be seeded
<dholbach> Kamion: i did that :)
<Kamion> dholbach: done, then
<dholbach> Kamion: merci beaucoup!
<Kamion> de rien
* dholbach is our for a walk
<dholbach> see you in a bit
<ogra> bah, we're turning ito a french channel here 
<Kamion> dholbach: you don't need to say "merged" in seed commits when all you did was pull
<Kamion> it looks a bit weird to see a log message that says "merged" but there's no actual merge ...
<dholbach> Kamion: you're right - I'll respect that the next time.
<doko> infinity: do the buildd's have /etc/services and /etc/protocols installed?
* Riddell nidges pitti torwards the UbuntuMainInclusionQueue packages he said he'd do before beta
* pitti whistles innocently
<pitti> Riddell: sorry
<Mithrandir> doko: you can't count on it.  Netbase's is priority: important.
<Riddell> pitti: just so long as they havn't fallen off the top of your todo list :)
<doko> Mithrandir: thanks, currently walking through testsuite results
<Mithrandir> would anybody be very sad if casper never picked !utf-8 locales by default?
<pitti> Mithrandir: oh, does it ATM?
<pitti> Mithrandir: since we optimized our system to be UTF-8 and assume that in several places...
<bddebian> Morning peoples
<Mithrandir> pitti: it just picks the first one it finds.  Which may or may not be UTF-8.
<Mithrandir> (first one from /usr/share/i18n/SUPPORTED)
<pitti> Mithrandir: would it be possible to take the first UTF-8 one, and only if that doesn't exist, take the first one?
<Mithrandir> pitti: anything's possible. :-)
<Mithrandir> pitti: but there are no locales where we don't have an UTF-8 equivalent.
<pitti> now, that's good! :)
<Kamion> I think I'd agree with changing it to pick only UTF-8
<Kamion> Riddell: could you merge the Kubuntu seeds? I tried but it seems kinda complex due to the merge of -server into dapper
<Kamion> Riddell: you're OK to merge my ubiquity branch now, btw
<Riddell> Kamion: two merges coming up
* Kamion will do the Edubuntu merge
<Mithrandir> Kamion: will gfxboot ever pass debian-installer/locale=.*UTF-8 on the kernel command line?
<ogra> Kamion, thanks
<Kamion> Mithrandir: I suppose it could if you want it to
<Mithrandir> Kamion: nah, I'll just make it cope either way.
<Kamion> although that would make life awkward for d-i, so probably not
<Kamion> because the intent is only to preseed the language, not the country
<Kamion> (unless the country matters to the language, i.e. pt and zh)
<Mithrandir> yup
<lifeless> gnight
* Mithrandir wonders how to detect the correct time zone on the live cd.
<Diziet> Is there some random Ubuntu-specific package I can make {ubuntu,kubuntu,xubuntu,edubuntu}-docs and m-f-l-all build-depend on without trouble ?
<pitti> Keybuk: hm, cupsd itself runs as cupsys:lp, not as group lpadmin; so what I would prefer instead is to reflect that in the adduser call and make lp the primary group of cupsys (and lpadmin an auxiliary one); is that fine for you?
<Diziet> I want a common source for a locale list.
<pitti> Keybuk: (instead of changing the group of /var/run/cups)
<Keybuk> pitti: I didn't _change_ the group of /var/run/cups
<Keybuk> it had that group in the package
<Mithrandir> Diziet: why should it be ubuntu-specific?
<Keybuk>         chown -R cupsys /var/run/cups
<Keybuk>         if [ -f /etc/printcap ] ; then
<Keybuk>             chgrp lpadmin /etc/printcap
<Keybuk>             chmod 664 /etc/printcap
<Keybuk>         fi
<Keybuk> ^ from cupsys postinst
<Keybuk> uh, just the first line you wanted, obviously :p
<Keybuk> I just fixed the init script to match the package
<pitti> Keybuk: ah, I see; right
<Diziet> mithrandir: Because this mad scheme for firefox start page translation is Ubuntu specific ?
<Mithrandir> Diziet: it's therefore a problem if the list of locales exists in other distributions too?
<Diziet> Err, I meant a package which *ubuntu owns and which is only in soyuz, as opposed to (say) debhelper :-).
<Diziet> (Which is also in Debian and other Debian derivatives.)
<Diziet> So I mean *ubuntu-specific, not specific to ubuntu as opposed to *?ubuntu.
<Mithrandir> locales has a list of all supported locales in /usr/share/i18n/SUPPORTED
<Diziet> No, I don't want that because this list has to change less often
<Mithrandir> uh, less often than the list of locales we support?
<Diziet> Possibly, yes.
<Diziet> Changing this list is a faff and involves rebuilding at least 5 packages.
<Diziet> And the resulting binaries aren't quite runtime compatible in a way that isn't expressible as a dependency.
<Diziet> (No great disasters happen if there's a mismatch, but you can have firefox come up and not be able to find its start page.)
<infinity> doko: Only if you build-dep on netbase, which provides those files.
<doko> infinity: yep, already added as a build-dep
* bddebian pounces on infinity
<Lathiat> so the LTS cd is sexy
<Lathiat> mjg59: what was your horrible alps workaround?
<mjg59> Lathiat: If it detects that it's an alps, it sets different default values
<mjg59> I think the Debian guys were going to push it upstream
<Lathiat> ah ok
* pitti uploads cups and breaks the world
<bddebian> w000t, go pitti
<giftnudel> I also want to mention here, that the live cd out of the box installation doesn't hibernate, see bug 39237 (since you're all praising the cd)
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39237 in linux-source-2.6.15 "Resuming from hibernation fails" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39237
<Diziet> I see no-one has an answer for my `I need some random package to depend on' question.
<Diziet> I suppose I could invent one.  Or I could make {k,x,ed}ubuntu-docs and m-f-l-all build-depend on ubuntu-docs.
<infinity> Diziet: Hrm?  What are we mangling here?
<Diziet> It's to do with DapperFirefoxStartPageTranslation, which is a bit of a hack really.
<Diziet> There's a master list of relevantly-translateable locales which has to be the same in *ubuntu-docs and m-f-l-all.
<infinity> Right.  Just read backscroll.
<Diziet> All that these packages need is the list, but there's nowhere convenient for them to get it.
<infinity> I'd just toss the master list in ubuntu-docs, since any change made there needs to be mirrored in the other *-{docs,artwork} packages anyway.
<infinity> It's not ideal, but it works fine for now.
<Diziet> (The build arrangements for *?ubuntu-docs would probably appreciate a little script to help out with generating the links.)
<Diziet> OK, so it's OK for those to build-depend on ubuntu-docs ?
<Diziet> I'm always a bit wary of adding new build dependencies in these kind of situations.
<infinity> Or, you could make the m-f-l-all source package spit out a binary package that provides the current list.
<Diziet> infinity: Right, I did consider that.  But its build system is a complete nightmare.
<Diziet> Weirdo templateified debian/control.
<Diziet> (For very good reasons, but.)
<infinity> It's ugly, but simple enough to add one little binary package.
<Diziet> If I'm going to invent a new package I'll have ubuntu-docs spit it out.
<infinity> And generating it is as simple os listing the XPIs.
<Diziet> Oh, no, it's much more complicated than that.
<Diziet> Because XPIs might turn up later.
<infinity> Well, what SHOULD define the master list, really?  The list of XPIs we ship (from m-f-l-all) would seem to be the definitive list.
<bddebian> Heya LaserJock
<infinity> So, if pitti adds a new locale, rebuilding the -docs packages just picks it up magically.
<Diziet> The list is everything we ship now _plus_ anything we think might plausibly turn up in the future.
<Diziet> Because changing the list is much harder than adding an xpi.
<infinity> Err, why that?  It doesn't hurt to rebuild the packages to match the current XPI list.
<infinity> And if the other packages are automating their mess based on the XPI list, then yay.
<Diziet> To change the list you have to rebuild at least five packages and the dependencies don't stop the user from producing a system which can't find its firefox start page.
<Diziet> So really we have to settle on the list before release and not change it later, or at least try hard not to.
<Diziet> This is why the master list has to be somewhere separate and really under human control.
<infinity> Mmkay.  Then ubuntu-docs seems a reasonable fit for now.
<Diziet> Right.  Fair enough.
<Diziet> If the extra build-dep isn't a problem then that's a good answer.
<infinity> Hopefully, the whole hack can be rethought later.
<infinity> I don't see that anyone would complain about the build-dep.
<infinity> It even, in an odd way, makes the fact that *-docs are all related and all need to get along be a bit more obvious.
<infinity> Which may prevent people from repeating the messes we saw in breezy. :)
<mjg59> So I booted my machine in SF time
<mjg59> Now I'm back in the UK and I've changed my timezone
<mjg59> I haven't rebooted
<mjg59> cron.daily now runs during the middle of the afternoon
<mjg59> DEAR LEGACY UNIX, PLS DIE, KTHXBI
<infinity> Makes perfect sense to me, since cron's been running from init.
<infinity>  /etc/init.d/cron restart && echo Yay
<infinity> Of course, syslog and the rest of the world is off too.
<mjg59> infinity: Oh, I know /why/ it happens, and it makes sense in the same way that dying in a car crash when you weren't wearing a seatbelt makes sense
<infinity> Dear world, stop computing in timezones other than UTC.
<sladen> have the locales crack to restart cron
<mjg59> It's predictable, it's just not /right/
<LaserJock> Diziet: got a second? I was wondering how the Ubuntu Developer's Reference was going
<infinity> Well, it's a fair wishlist bug to ask cron to reinit its envionment when it does its cleanup each minute, I suppose.
<infinity> Much as it's a decent wishlist to ask logging daemons to just log in UTC, and ignore local time altogether.
<mjg59> infinity: Utterly agreed on the latter
<infinity> Well, it nicely solves the headache of DST, too.
<infinity> DST + logfiles = confused sysadmin, twice a year.
<mjg59> Yeah, logviewers should eal with it
<infinity> I don't think I ever really got over that confusion (except by setting all my machines to UTC)
<Keybuk> actually, it'd be nice if the log file viewer automatically converted the log file times to whatever localtime you're currently viewing them in
<infinity> OH LOOK, 2:30 HAPPENED TWICE LAST NIGHT, YAY!
<Keybuk> sadly when the boffins came up with UNIX, they didn't expect anyone to be moving machines across timezones
<infinity> The scarier one, of course, is when you go ther other direction and you immediately assume that "all my logfiles are missing an hour" means "oh shit, we were broken into, and someone did a crap job cleaning up"
<Keybuk> after all, they were the size of large buildings
<infinity> Then you remember the whole clock changing business and calm down.
<LaserJock> heh, you're supposed to actually look at logs? ;-)
<infinity> This is another one of the hilarious ironies about Windows NT, actually.
<infinity> WinNT does everything internally in UTC, converts all values to local time for the user in displays... But STILL ISISTS ON HAVING THE HARDWARE CLOCK IN LOCAL TIME.
<infinity> So, what's the first tihng NT has to do on boot?  Convert the local clock to UTC, so its internal clock is correct.
<infinity> Say what?
<LaserJock> wha? that seem a bit dumb
<mjg59> infinity: Not strictly true. There's a registry key that gets it to assume the hardware clock is UTC
<jsgotangco> yeah
<infinity> It's just legacy, since PCs traditionally have local time in the BIOS, I assume.  Ease of dual-booting with DOS-based systems when they were first developing NT.
<infinity> But still messed up.
<mjg59> Except that breaks over suspend/resume or if you use the Visual Studio debugger
<LarstiQ> mjg59: ooh, that would be useful
<infinity> mjg59: Ahh, I've not found that key.  But it's clearly not set by default.
<infinity> Breaks suspend/resume?  Cute bug.
<mjg59> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/mswish/ut-rtc.html
<infinity> Nice to know we're not the only ones that can't always get that right.
<mjg59> infinity: NT used to run on machines that had the hardware clocks in UTC, so
<mjg59> But they never suspended
<infinity> Yeah, fair point.
<mjg59> HKLM\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation\RealTimeIsUniversal - not sure if it's in XP, was there in 2000
<infinity> If it's there in 2K, it's in XP.
<mjg59> Oh, it's still in XP
<infinity> Can't vouch for Vista, though.
<infinity> But 2K->XP was a pretty minor version bump, they barely touched internals like this.
<mjg59> "There is RealTimeIsUniversal registry entry and it almost work but during
<mjg59> the hours around the daylight change system will use 100% of processor time."
<infinity> Interesting read.
<infinity> I may just flip that bit ony Zofia's machine and see what happens.
<infinity> I've never had to attach a kernel debugger to her machine, so that concern is out.
<infinity> And it never suspends.
<infinity> I can see why both those operations would get messed up by it, though, since both are very early boot-time things that probably happen before walking the registry.
<carlos> Riddell: hi
<carlos> around?
<Riddell> carlos: hi
<carlos> Riddell: seems like kdegraphics lacks the .pot files
<carlos> and I have a bunch of .po files pending to be imported because that
<carlos> are you going to upload an update soon that would create the .pot files?
<Riddell> carlos: buildlogs do indeed lack any use of gettext, let me see why
<Riddell> carlos: in the mean time you can import koffice 1.5 if you want http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/k/koffice-l10n/koffice-l10n_1.5.0.orig.tar.gz
<carlos> samething with kdeaddons, kdesdk and I think others... I'm checking all them now...
<carlos> Riddell: are you going to promote it to main?
<Riddell> carlos: I thought you said importing it directly to rosetta would be the best idea
<Riddell> hmm, possibly those are the packages that don't use cdbs
<carlos> Riddell: oh, ok, sorry, that's one of those 'empty' packages
<carlos> Riddell: hmmm, I really hate the way KDE stores .po files... that package needs more code on my side to support that specific case...
<carlos> I'm going to do it locally for this firts import, but I will need to develop something for new updates :-(
<carlos> to do it automatically
<carlos> Riddell: hmm, this is interesting... kde-i18n-* packages have translations for binaries that we don't have in main, is that what we want? (I'm talking, for instance, about kdevelop)
<carlos> and kdeaccessibility
<carlos> aren't those core parts of KDE?
<carlos> well, not core but important...
<Riddell> carlos: kde-i18n includes all the .po files for all the KDE modules, but not all the KDE modules are in main
<Riddell> kdevelop3 gets broken randomly mostly because it's renamed from kdevelop
<Riddell> kdeaccessibility I'd like for dapper+1 so we can do a CD boot option like ubuntu has
<carlos> Riddell: I guess is ok If I ignore those .po files for dapper, right? I don't think you are going to move them to main before release :-P
<Riddell> carlos: yeah, that's fine
<Riddell> carlos: I've fixed kdegraphics, kdeaddons and kdesdk, doing a test compile them uploading
<Riddell> carlos: any others having that problem?
<carlos> Riddell: cool, thanks
<carlos> Riddell: no that I'm aware of
<carlos> Riddell: the others are packages that are on universe
<carlos> If I detect anyone I will ping you again
<carlos> Riddell: thanks
<Riddell> carlos: are you going to import k3b-i18n too?
<carlos> btw, would be possible to fix the .pot files that use UTF-8 but that the header doesn't say it?
<carlos> Riddell: yeah, now that I'm with KOffice, I will do it at the same time
<Riddell> carlos: I suspect that will need some sed scripting or the like, I presume gettext-kde doesn't care about utf8 too much
<Riddell> carlos: what's the syntax needed?
<carlos> Riddell: as an easy fix, you could generate all .pot files as being UTF-8 encoded as KDE uses UTF-8 and the ones in ASCII are aslo UTF-8 valid
<carlos> "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\n"
<carlos> Riddell: instead of whatever gettext-kde uses
<Riddell> is there a gettext switch for that?
<carlos> Riddell: hmm, let me check
<carlos> I think it has one
<carlos> Riddell: --from-code=UTF-8
<carlos> Riddell: but I'm not sure if KDE version has it, I think it appear one or two years ago
<Riddell> doesn't seem like kde-xgettext knows that
<carlos> ok
<Riddell> so I can play around with adding it directly using a script
<carlos> then you will need to use sed
<carlos> Riddell: yeah
<carlos> you should check that the .po file is using UTF-8 as a sanity check
<ogra> who does the torrent seeds ? seems edubuntu isnt seeded 
<carlos> konqueror is a good file to check it
<carlos> I mean konqueror.pot
<Riddell> yep
<azeem> Kamion: ping
<Lathiat> hey guys
<Lathiat> where does espresso hide its logs?
<jdub> checking for passwords? :)
<Lathiat> haha
<Lathiat> no
<Lathiat> filing too many bugs :)
<Lathiat> got one instance here where it keeps crashing out after partitioning
<Lathiat> so trying to get some more data
<Chipzz> jdub: happy belated birthday ;)
<Lathiat> hrm.. it seems bittorrent has a tracker, and while theres no rc?d/S links
<Lathiat> it has K links, so you see shutting down bittorrent tracker 
<Lathiat> on default installs
<Lathiat> thats a bit bad and ugly and theres a rather old bug about it
<Lathiat> how do i harass someone about that? :)
<dholbach> Lathiat: /var/log/installer/espresso
<wasabi> Morning folks.
<Lathiat> ah cheers dholbach 
<nmsa> Kamion
<nmsa> can I ask you something ? are u available !?
<tseng> Kamion: debian policy says to ask base-passwd maintainer about using useradd, i need an unprivelaged user (beagleindex) for beagle system-wide indexer
<tseng> Kamion: do you care about the policy in the scope of ubuntu?
<Lathiat> so 
<Lathiat> how do i raise awareness of a bug report?
<LaserJock> spam #ubuntu-* ? ;-)
<wasabi> Fix it.
<Lathiat> hehe
<infinity> Lathiat: The bttracker bug?  It's on my radar, it's just not top priority.
<Lathiat> hrm good fix seems to read the START_BTTRACK vara and not disaplay a message on shutdown if its not set
<Lathiat> i guess
<Lathiat> or have the tracker in a different package
<Diziet> Should I bump the version of ubuntu-docs to 6.06 ?
<infinity> Lathiat: Splitting it to another package is pointless, the init script just needs to not be broken.
<ogra> Diziet, i'd keep that step for final ;)
<LaserJock> Diziet: I thought that was going to be done on release
<LaserJock> Diziet: but I'm not positive
* Lathiat nods
<Diziet> ogra: Fair enough.
<Diziet> I just noticed it was wrong :-).
<Lathiat> infinity: does not broken = not showing a message on shutdown is START_BTTRACK is set to 0?
<LaserJock> Diziet: well, it is still 6.04 ;-)
<infinity> Diziet: No, it's right, the version is date-dependant, check the changelog.
<lamont> Lathiat: that's getting close to asking him to pull it to the top of his todo list...
<Lathiat> heh
<infinity> Lathiat: "Not broken" means "working according to policy".
<lamont> infinity: heh
<Lathiat> guess i better read the policy then :)
<lamont> debconf: Obsolete command TITLE Configuring mdadm called
<lamont> neato
<Kamion> Lathiat: /var/log/installer/espresso; use ESPRESSO_DEBUG=1 to make it more useful
<Kamion> (or, as of tomorrow or so, UBIQUITY_DEBUG=1 and /var/log/installer/syslog)
<Kamion> nmsa: sure; quicker to just ask rather than waiting for me to get back and then asking
<Kamion> tseng: yes, very much do, the policy is sensible regardless and I don't want to fork base-passwd. However, can't you just call 'adduser --system beagleindex' in your postinst?
<Kamion> tseng: you normally don't need a static id
<Kamion> tseng: oh, policy tells people to check with me first even for dynamic ids; I see. I think you're the first person who's actually paid attention to that ;-)
<Riddelll> carlos: can you give me the .po line for UTF8 again?
<Kamion> I think that bit could be removed from policy; the base-passwd maintainer is not an effective registry of dynamic user and group names, only of static ids
<carlos> sure
<carlos> instead of "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=CHARSET\n"
<carlos> you should have "Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8\n"
<Riddelll> carlos: great, thanks
<carlos> riddell and be sure that the file is using UTF-8 or ASCII as its encoding...
<carlos> I guess that would be the default... but just in case
<carlos> Riddelll: k3b and koffice are now in the Rosetta import queue
<carlos> should be imported today
<carlos> the queue is a bit busy atm with the post beta uploads... :-P
<nmsa> Kamion: I have failed this Bug #40560, almost a duplicate on Bug #33504 with a diff S3 video card. I think is a Critical one, I wonder until a fix gets out is there a w/a ? 
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40560 in xserver-xorg-driver-s3 "GDM session does not start" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40560
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 33504 in xserver-xorg-driver-s3 xserver-xorg "Server failure with S3 86c764/765 [Trio32/64/64V+] " [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/33504
<Kamion> nmsa: I'm sorry, I have no relevant expertise; why did you pick me to ask?
<nmsa> your name is there beside the bug in launchpad
<nmsa> as xserver-xorg-driver-s3 Creator
<ogra> heh
<Kamion> nmsa: I only uploaded the most recent version; if you look at the changelog you'll see that the change I made is a trivial dependency change that doesn't actually require any knowledge of X
<Kamion> I'll file a bug on Launchpad for that incredibly misleading terminology
<nmsa> :)
<Kamion> so sorry, can't help you
<ogra> Kamion, if you need another example, ltsp shows fabbione as creator
<ogra> :)
* jdong_ likes the new shakespeare writer
<Diziet> ogra: The edubuntu-artwork package doesn't seem to use the alternatives system to manage index.html.
<Diziet> It doesn't divert it either.
<Diziet> Surely this is just completely broken ?
<Diziet> Oh, I'm looking at an old version.
<ogra> yes
<ogra> look at dapper
<ohoel> any ETA on fresh langpacks?
<ogra> i'd be astonished if it would be broken, postinst is derived from infinitys code 
<jdub> Kamion: are we labelling the old installer CDs as 'text install & upgrade CDs' or something?
<Kamion> https://launchpad.net/products/soyuz/+bug/40602
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40602 in soyuz ""Creator" terminology is wrong and misleading" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
<Kamion> jdub: "text-mode install CD" is the current phrase
<jdub> Kamion: might be worth mentioning that it's the one to download if you want to do an upgrade
<jdub> Kamion: http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?src=rss&id=973
<Kamion> jdub: for the three people who actually upgrade that way? :)
<jdub> Kamion: useful notes there
<jdub> Kamion: you're not bandwidth challenged - there are a fuckload more than three
<ohoel> they'll be using shipit when the time comes
<jdub> Kamion: it's a very common use case
<Kamion> jdub: shipit won't cater for them ...
<Kamion> ohoel: ^--
<jdub> s/jdub/ohoel/ :)
<Kamion> jdub: both
<ohoel> Kamion: the bandwidth-challenged? ;)
<ohoel> I suspect they won't be downloading a beta image
<Kamion> ohoel: we will not be sending the text-mode install CD out in shipit
<ohoel> oh
<Kamion> it's a Canonical decision to save money
<ohoel> probably wise
<ogra> (you could order an edubuntu text-mode CD and remove the edubuntu parts post install though)
<ohoel> I'll be installing both ubuntu and kubuntu on a load of machines later today... hope I won't get too ill when faced with a livecd install
<jdub> Kamion: likelihood of having ship seed on the livecd?
<Kamion> jdub: anyway - I'm not wild about the unwieldiness of "text install and upgrade CDs" as a short description, but I've added "can also be used as a package source for upgrading older installations" to the longer description on releases; does that help
<Kamion> jdub: I've been meaning to talk to somebody about that; I'm not sure where to put it, and I'm not sure that all of ship is appropriate, although I realise that some of it is needed
<Kamion> there are some awkward technical difficulties, although good reasons to look into solving them; it's not something I can just flick a switch and fix though
<jdub> Kamion: yeah, tough one
<Kamion> I think it may have to be a separate seed
* Kamion -> dinner
<jdub> miniship ;)
<Lathiat> Kamion: mm ok, i'll have to re-do that bug then, whast with 'uniquity', new name for it?
<desrt> what would be really great: some way for the user to precompile their volatile modules so that they don't have to relink at every startup and be stored in a tmpfs
<desrt> and since the user is doing it themselves there is no GPL violation
<Lathiat> anyone else noticed fn+escape on their laptop no longer suspending?
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<Burgwork> Kamion, why the second rename>
<Burgwork> ;/
<ogra> second ? 
<Burgwork> ok, that was a typo, not a smiley
<Burgwork> espresso --> ubiquity
<ogra> yes
<LaserJock> Burgwork: because everybody called it expresso? ;-)
<ohoel> LaserJock: the baristas nightmare
<LaserJock> heh
<dholbach> have a nice WE!
<peterpowell> hi
<Kamion> Burgwork: Mark wanted a name that made the association with Ubuntu clearer
<Kamion> with Espresso it wasn't obvious at all; with Ubiquity there's at least a suggestion. We didn't want "Ubuntu" blatantly in the name if possible, because that introduces branding difficulties
<Kamion> I'm sorry it came late in the cycle, but we only dreamt up a suitable name shortly before the beta, and renaming was too intrusive at that point
<Burgwork> Kamion, no worries, just wondered
<Diziet> {x,k}ubuntu-docs have an alternative for the firefox home page which is at the same priority as the one from ubuntu-docs.
<Diziet> edubuntu-artwork has a higher-priority one.
<Diziet> Is this all correct ?
<Kamion> Burgwork: (and Ubiquity is a better name, too - suggests putting Ubuntu everywhere)
<mdz> Kamion: would it be non-trivial to have a ship seed for live?  or even to use the existing one?
<LaserJock> mdz: sorry to bug you. I've got two packages from Debian (that aren't in Ubuntu) that I'd like to get into dapper Universe. Was a procedure for that hammered out or is it ok to just upload?
<Kamion> mdz: I haven't looked into it in detail yet, and I have to go out just now; I have some thoughts but perhaps it would be better if I took a little while to think through the implications for germinate and cdimage before coming out with an opinion
<ogra> Diziet, yes
<Kamion> mdz: I think, regardless of technical constraints, it might be wise to have a separate seed so that we have more flexibility in terms of language packs and things
<Kamion> we want to put language packs in the ship seed, but probably not in the ship-on-live seed
<Kamion> anyway, out now ...
<Diziet> ogra: Oh, good.  Well, the fixes for everything are uploading now.
<ogra> yay+
<mdz> LaserJock: you should request a sync, procedure on DeveloperResources
<LaserJock> mdz: oh, sorry. I should have clarified. They need to be tweaked a bit in debian/control (GL and python deps)
<LaserJock> mdz: so I have ubuntu1 packages ready
<mdz> LaserJock: in that case, I guess just note in the changelog that it's a new package from Debian
<LaserJock> mdz: k
<mdz> so that the archive admins know where it came from
<mdz> Diziet: why is this start page translation stuff landing post-featurefreeze? (and indeed, post-beta)
<Diziet> mdz: The feature was there before feature freeze but it broke {k,ed,x}ubuntu.
<Diziet> It was designed for Breezy in fact but not implemented there.
<Diziet> So we had to extend the design to cover the derivatives, which also meant being more rigorous about the locale list (which it turns out seems to have been handled very loosely anyway).
<infinity> mdz: How would a ship-on-live seed work?  live, by definition, is completely installed in the livefs, are we talking about adding a repository of non-installed debs on the livecd or something?
* infinity feels as though he may have missed some crucial scrollback and begins scrolling.
<ogra> infinity, and link it to /var/cache/apt/archives ?
<mdz> Diziet: if it needed redesign, it should have been the subject of a feature freeze exception discussion
<mdz> infinity: yes, I am talking about a repository of non-installed debs
<mdz> infinity: use case: third-party network driver needs linux-headers+build-essential
<infinity> mdz: Ahh, cool.  If the seed side of that were sorted, I can easily mangle the livefs build to stuff them somewhere and even build a Packages.gz for them (if we want it as a static file:// repo, rather than having it in /var/cache/apt)
<mdz> infinity: yeah, though tying it into the livefs directly probably isn't dapper material
<mdz> infinity: it's a lot of stuff to install in the live environment anyway, but useful on the installed system
<infinity> mdz: <shrug>... Tying it into the livefs isn't rocket science, really, and it just makes it that much simpler for espresso to not bother worrying about, since it can just copy it blindly with the rest of the filesystem.
<infinity> Either way, something needs to be hacked, and if we want it on the livefs eventually, why bother hacking debian-cd to put it in some other odd place?
<mdz> infinity: if espresso is copying sources.list, then we don't want to start changing it at this point
<mdz> I think it might be generating a new one though
<mdz> infinity: P.S. s/espresso/ubiquity/g ;-)
<mdke> Diziet, around?
<infinity> mdz: ;)
<mdke> hey infinity 
<mdke> infinity, is suspend to ram on your t43 working alright? it's playing up a lot here
<infinity> mdke: Worked last time I tried, but I don't try often.  My laptop's generally up 24/7 for weeks on end.
<mdke> ah
<mdke> np then
<Diziet> mdke: Not really but if it's quick ...
<Kamion> infinity: I think ship-on-live probably wants to be handled by debian-cd anyway
<Diziet> mdz: redesign> I'll make sure to have it discussed next time.
<mdke> Diziet, np then, thanks for doing those uploads
<Diziet> NP.  Tell mdz they're a good thing :-).
<Kamion> infinity: I had a good reason for this in my head earlier but I seem to have forgo^W^W^W^W^Wthis IRC channel is too narrow to contain it
<mdke> Diziet, will do
<mdke> can I download older source packages other than the current ones? the man page says I can do it with an =versionnumber but it doesn't seem to be working.
<Kamion> mdz: ubiquity doesn't really have to bother much actually - all I have to do would be to turn on the cdrom generator in apt-setup ...
<Kamion> advantages of using d-i code++
<tseng> Kamion: yeah i was planning on adduser --system in postinst, I'll consider it ack'd
<tseng> Kamion: thanks.
<infinity> Kamion: Alright, if we think the use-case for having the stuff available to the live system is marginal at best, and we just want it for the installed system, I'll keep my dirty hands off it.
<infinity> Kamion: Just made sense to me to have it available in the live system too, "just cause".
<Kamion> infinity: actually I think we can have our cake and eat it there
<Kamion> infinity: if we know it's going to be on the CD, the live system can add a line to its sources.list referencing it
<infinity> Ahh, I see what you mean.  Have a pool/dists structure on the ISO filesystem, then an apt-cd line in sources.list.
<Kamion> infinity: one reason to do it this way is that it's more economical of disk space on the installed system; we don't have to copy stuff that not everyone needs to use
<infinity> Clever.
<Kamion> right
<infinity> That does make more sense, yes, I wasn't thinking clearly. :)
<Kamion> all the code to do that is already there - it's just a matter of switching some ifs around and figuring out the germinate end
* Kamion totally doesn't understand these espresso bug reports that amount to l-r-m not being installed
<Kamion> (after reboot)
<Kamion> hmm, maybe it's not that the package isn't installed, but that the files are mysteriously broken
<infinity> Kamion: I have some shiney new bug reports that claim that depmod hasn't been run.
<infinity> Kamion: Which is utter BS... Unless you're not copying modules.dep from the installed system...
<infinity> Kamion: Or something elsewise goofy.
<infinity> Kamion: FWIW, I've confirmed here that LRM works on the livefs itself.  I haven't done an espresso install to see what might be breaking between A and B.
<Riddellll> Kamion: overwriting problem in ubiquity-casper http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/673875
<ozamosi> Henrik Nilsen Omma. Does that guy have an IRC-nick?
<LaserJock> ozamosi: yes
<ozamosi> Better question: what irc-nick has he?
<LaserJock> ozamosi: something like hno7 , I can't remember. He isn't on all that often
<infinity> ozamosi: heno
<infinity> ozamosi: He's on #ubuntu-accessibility
<ozamosi> Ok, thanks.
<LaserJock> infinity: ah yes, thanks
<RoeyInDisgust> HI!
<RoeyInDisgust> I KNEW this place existed
<RoeyInDisgust> quick quesiton:
<RoeyInDisgust> I found this bug https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/ieee80211/+bug/35095  
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 35095 in ieee80211 "Please update al last version" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  
<RoeyInDisgust> seemed applicable
<RoeyInDisgust> when will this be addressed?
<LaserJock> RoeyInDisgust: usually when somebody has time to get to it.
<infinity> RoeyInDisgust: ipw3945 is already in our latest kernel.
<RoeyInDisgust> ah! cool.
<RoeyInDisgust> infinity:  what about the module?
<RoeyInDisgust> infinity:  I'm using DD
<RoeyInDisgust> infinity:  I suppose you're referring to grump?
<RoeyInDisgust> *grumpy?
<infinity> There is no grumpy.  I'm referring to dapper.
<RoeyInDisgust> infinity:  hmm.
<infinity> The latest kernel uploaded a few hours ago has ipw3945 built in.
<infinity> Just be patient.
<infinity> As for the ieee80211 source, someone will look at your bug in time, wandeing in here to hilight *your* pet bug doesn't help anyone get their work done any faster.  Really.
<infinity> IRC is not a bug tracker.
<RoeyInDisgust> infinity:  thanks for the information.
<RoeyInDisgust> infinity:  and please don't take it personally.
<RoeyInDisgust> infinity:   *I* feel like a bug tracker.  That's why i cam here.
<RoeyInDisgust> but anyhow, thanks a lot =)
<infinity> RoeyInDisgust: It's nothing personal at all.  It's just that if every user felt the need to come in here and hilight their bugs for us, we'de never have any development discussion in here, which is what we TRY to do here.
<RoeyInDisgust> heh
<RoeyInDisgust> alright.
<RoeyInDisgust> no one answered in #k/ubuntu.
<RoeyInDisgust> my bad.
<RoeyInDisgust> anyhow I'll get outta here
<RoeyInDisgust> thanks again!
<neuralis> infinity: i expect that the malone featureset will eventually expand to include sentience, after which it *will* come on irc. and probably get into comically pointless ALICE-style nonsense-babble with ubugtu every time someone mentions a bug.
<infinity> Don't even joke about that.
<jeroenvrp2> hi folks
<jeroenvrp2> I had a almost locked/freezed system this evening (using dapper current revision)
<infinity> jeroenvrp2: /topic
<jeroenvrp2> I have the erroroutput (from /var/log/messages)
<jeroenvrp2> infinity: seems like a bug
<jeroenvrp2> http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/673936
<infinity> jeroenvrp2: Then file it in Malone, please.
<jeroenvrp2> infinity: off course, but first I want to know if its me or a bug and what kind of bug
<neuralis> jeroenvrp2: there is no bug. you ran out of memory and swap, and the oom killer does what it does best: not work well. nothing to see here, please move on.
<Treenaks> doko: OOo has a 'Use hardware acceleration' option in Options -> Display -- any reason for it to be disabled?
<jeroenvrp2> neuralis: thank you for your nice answer
<infinity> jeroenvrp2: If I had to guess, I'd say perhaps you ram out of memory because you had brltty running which had a hideous memory leak (ate 1.5GB on my system in under 2 days).  Update/upgrade, reboot, enjoy the extra RAM.
<infinity> s/ram out of /ran out of /
<doko> Treenaks: what does it do? ;-)
<jeroenvrp2> !brltty
<jeroenvrp2> infinity: oh thanks, so that was it
<Treenaks> doko: Well, it's in the "Display" part of the preferences.. it also has a (disabled by default) OpenGL flag (with its own 'use acceleration' flag)
<Treenaks> doko: it might be Xv ?
<Treenaks> doko: or RENDER ?
<Trewas> I had to upgrade in dapper to a self-compiled 2.6.17-rc2 to get suspend-to-ram working. consequently network-manager dies with message "Warning: Driver for device eth1 has been compiled with version 20 of Wireless Extension, while this program supports up to version 19.", does anyone have idea if just re-compiling network-manager will get support for new wireless-extension from kernel sources, or where are they defined?
<doko> Treenaks: that might be the support for cairo-glitz in Impress' full screen mode
<mjg59> Trewas: Did you file a bug about the suspend to RAM issue?
<mjg59> We would aim to fix that in our kernel
<Treenaks> doko: I've enabled them locally here.. no ill effects so far (but I'm not really a heavy user, and I have a proper OpenGL driver)
<Trewas> mjg59: somebody had filed the bug already
<mjg59> "Suspend to RAM doesn't work" isn't a bug
<mjg59> "Suspend to RAM doesn't work on this specific machine" is a bug
<jeroenvrp2> infinity: I dont have brltty
<jeroenvrp2> as you proberly knew
<jeroenvrp2> bye
<Trewas> mjg59: well, all I have this specific machine and somebody had filed a bug concerning the specific x41 already :)
<mjg59> Trewas: Oh, an X41? Should be fixed in the next kernel package (uploaded today)
<Trewas> mjg59: I knew it would get fixed in ubuntu just as I'll manage to fix myself :)
<siretart> infinity: re bug #26341 - I tested the linked patches from freedesktop bugzilla, and they work for me. I switched xserver-xorg-i810 to used patched on that occasion. may I upload my fix?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 26341 in xserver-xorg-driver-i810 "[i855]  dual-head configs are ill" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/26341
<siretart> s/to used patched/to use dpatch/
<jcole> how does cdrom-detect determine if a cd is an ubuntu cd?
<jcole> i've remastered an ubuntu install cd for netinstall and now i'm getting that error... something has changed
<siretart> uploaded
<jcole> Kamion: is the ubuntu /.disk/ dir on any of the ubuntu mirrors?
#ubuntu-devel 2006-04-27
<Kamion> Mithrandir: please merge http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/bzr/casper/ubiquity again; sorry for the mistake
<Kamion> jcole: no, but you can copy it from any Ubuntu CD; it's generated by the CD image build scripts
<jcole> Kamion: thanks
<ohoel> the livecd installer seems to crash after time zone setup, and proceed spawning partman, parted_server, perfor_recipe among others
<ohoel> does the installer generate any useful error logs anywhere?
<ohoel> is "live-installer" the correct package to file a bug against in this case (kubuntu beta livecd installer)
<ohoel> filed as bug 40666
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40666 in live-installer "Installer crashes after name setup" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40666
<bddebian> Hi peoples
<nix4me> has the slow firefox in dapper beta been reported?  i have searched launchpad and there are so many bugs against firefox with so many comments that I can't make heads or tails
<bluefoxicy> eh
<bluefoxicy> i'm going to try to negotiate with the q3f guys, what the hell.
<crimsun> nix4me: yes, numerous times.
<nix4me> ok, thanks for the reply. 
<mdke> anyone here to help me with a question about how to use sed?
<mdke> I'm trying to go through a text file to replace certain instances. I'm doing: "sed -i -e s@blah@blah@g filename
<mdke> and that works
<mdke> however, in this particular instance, blah in the text file has inverted commas around it, and I want to include them in the expression too, but that doesn't seem to work with that command
<mdke> any ideas?
<jdong> not to steals mdke's thunder, but thanks for l-r-m 2.6.15.9-1
<jdong> the ATI X1600 and the ipw3945 support
<jdong> you've made me buy a core duo :)
<bddebian> heh
<jdong> Dapper is going to rock
<Chipzz> how can I file a bug against the ubuntu website?
<jdong> can we rename the release to the "This should keep jdong quiet for a while" release?
<bddebian> hehe
* jdong hops on launchpad
<mdke> Chipzz, you can't. what is it?
<Chipzz> mdke: packages.ubuntu.com "Search the contents of packages" not including dapper, although it works if you replace breezy with dapper in the url
<Chipzz> quite annoying actually :/
<mdke> Chipzz, that's not part of the ubuntu website. You need to email the maintainer of the site, his email is on the page
<Chipzz> done
<jdong> 40687 :)
<mdke> sed question answered, nm
<robertj> ack...slashdot title "Previewing Dapper And Edgy"
<Amaranth> stupid xchat python
<Lathiat> mjg59: hrm, i'm thinking the alps could do with a slightly faster speed
<intelikey> STAFF    what tod (time of day) are the repos updated ?   i'll stop my dl for that just in case.
<intelikey> dialup makes for long down load time.....
<nomed> hi all
<nomed> Kamion:  around ?
<nomed> i have a question about seeds .. it seems gdm installs gnome-session but it could even be fine with xterm|x-window-manager|x-terminal-emulator
<Kamion> nomed: germinate generally picks the first alternative unless another is explicitly seeded (and even then it may not reliably avoid picking the first alternative)
<nomed> Kamion: yep i got it ..
<nomed> i see there is even a blacklist
<nomed> i'll take a look if gnome-session is called just by gdm
<nomed> in that case would it be possible blacklist it ?
<nomed> or will it need to be installed as apt-get install xterm gdm for ex ?
<nomed> well i'll make some tests later .. and i'll ask to janimo to fix the seeds where and if needed
<klepas> where is the sabdfl
<klepas> :)
<Kamion> nomed: we don't really use the blacklist any more, and I doubt it still works. easiest to explicitly seed xterm, try it, and see what happens.
<nomed> Kamion: k
<rohan> the espresso installer on the dapper beta live cd always _always_ hangs after selecting time zone. can i do some debugging for pasting in a bug report ?
* _ion is upgrading a breezy box to dapper with update-manager.
<_ion> First note: it modified sources.list intelligently. The se.archive.ubuntu.com lines had breezy changed to dapper, and unofficial repositories got a # in front of them.
<Keybuk> ah, I love this time of the morning
<\sh> Keybuk: nice weather in uk?
<_ion> Let me guess: it's raining.
<Keybuk> nope, dreary
<Keybuk> _ion: nah, hardly ever rains here
<StevenK> It mostly drizzles instead? :-P
<\sh> oh then I'm really a lucky guy, the last two days temperatures over 20 degrees C and you can see the spring's coming to germany...the women skirts are morphing into something which is most likely to named as "belt" ;)
<StevenK> \sh: Or 'small teatowel'
<\sh> yeah :)
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> there were lots of scantily clad pretty things at Alton Towers on Monday
<Keybuk> which is a shame, because it rained
<StevenK> Now it's getting colder here, the number of scantily-clad pretty things is very limited.
<lifeless> Keybuk: wet t-shirt!
<infinity> StevenK: Does it comfort you to know that I'm not wearing pants?
<Keybuk> lifeless: there was that attraction briefly, yes
<Keybuk> but they all went home
<Keybuk> it got wet enough that we decided to go on the water rides
<Keybuk> and the boyfriend got absolutely soaked on the flume and was grumpy for the rest of the day
<Keybuk> lol
<lifeless> Keybuk: haha!
<StevenK> lifeless: Not at all.
<lifeless> StevenK: ECONTEXT
<StevenK> Sorry, wrong person.
<StevenK> infinity: Not at all.
<infinity> Well, pfeh.  I'm insulted.
<infinity> Zofia's not wearing pants either, if that helps.
<StevenK> Heh.
<lifeless> what is it meant to help with :)
<StevenK> It's much too cold to not wear pants.
<infinity> With StevenK's lament about people rugging up for what Australia calls "winter".
<lifeless> ah
<infinity> I refuse to call it winter until I see snow.
<lifeless> .au just gets an absence of summer.
<lifeless> not a winter
<infinity> Maybe I should go to Tasmania this year for a few days.
<StevenK> My sisters just came back from Tasmania, actually.
<Keybuk> we should send the Australians to Montral or Oslo for the winter
* StevenK had to deal with Sydney airport on a Friday night.
<infinity> Keybuk: Seems fair, since I've been forced to deal with a *lack* of winter for the last two years.
<infinity> They can bloody well suffer too.
<StevenK> Hah
<lifeless> StevenK: are you a sydneysider
<lifeless> ?
<infinity> Oh well.  I'm just hurt that I apparently don't qualify as a "pretty young thing".
* infinity goes to be emo about it on LiveJournal or something.
<StevenK> lifeless: Yes.
<lifeless> StevenK: ah. Have we met ?
<StevenK> lifeless: Yup.
<lifeless> heh.
* StevenK feels his feet begin to thaw out.
<StevenK> lifeless: If you remember the Debsig when Jeff showed Warty, I was there.
<lifeless> vaguely ;)
<StevenK> lifeless: You promoted Linda to main for me.
<lifeless> ?!
<lifeless> anyway I read that I'm confused
<StevenK> Well, organised to have it done.
<lifeless> oh, that I can believe
<Keybuk> Kamion: if all else fails, we could use "Pissed CD1", etc. :p
<Keybuk> Kamion: I believe that the noun is "Lounge" though
<\sh> infinity: what? you are not a "pretty young thing" anymore? welcome to the club :)
<Keybuk> oh, I don't know, infinity is quite alluring in the right light ;)
<\sh> hmm..I have to do some research, why FAI is not working on ubuntu server
<\sh> there's something wrong with some diverts in fai-nfsroot and the dhclient package..cost me 6 hours of time to replace ubuntu server with sarge :(
<mdke> Kamion, around?
<mdke> Diziet, the translated homepages aren't working: I get "Can't find file file:///usr/share/ubuntu-artwork/home/index-it_IT.html" from firefox in italian
<\sh> same for de_DE and en_GB
<mdke> thanks
* mdke emails
<highvoltage> Znarl: ping
<sivang> re all
<hunger> My laptop (Thinkpad T43p) no longer suspends properly in dapper (display does not come back on). Is that a known regression frem breezy or should I report this?
<mdke> hunger, report it. Actually, my T43 doesn't either, but it has a different video card, so file a separate bug
<hunger> ~.
<hunger> mdke: Hmmm... this is with kpowersave.
<hunger> mdke: Using "pmi action sleep" it fails to suspend and just comes back.
* hunger wonders what kpowersave uses.
<hunger> I'd guess pmi fails due to this bluetooth stuff. Had that before.
<Trewas> hunger: my x41 requires acpi_sleep=s3_bios kernel option to get the screen back on after suspend, though it still fails to wake the sata disk succesfully with the dapper kernel (a known bug)
<Znarl> highvoltage : Pong?
<mdke> hunger, anything that doesn't work is a bug, you should file it.
<hunger> Trewas: This used to work with breezy and it did work in dapper a couple of weeks back.
<mdke> ... so it's a bug ... go file!
<hunger> It is completly eratic!
<hunger> I tried 4 times now and saw 3 different ways of suspend failing:-(
<Trewas> hunger: i just got that laptop and directly installed dapper flight 6 so I don't know how it would have worked with breezy or older dapper
<mdke> dude, that's still a bug.
* hunger is of writting a bugreport
<mdke> that's better.
<mdke> if you like, continue to discuss it on #ubuntu-laptop
<mjg59> Lathiat: It's fairly easy to patch
<hunger> Damn... I accidentally reported the bug to be on baltix (whatever that is). How do I change that again?
<mdke> hunger, open a task on distribution: Ubuntu. Then reject the baltix one
* hunger hates launchpad.
<hunger> I really think twice before reporting anything on ubuntu because lp keeps confusing the hell out of me.
<mdke> hunger, you need to talk to #launchpad about that, not here
<hunger> Would it be possible to decide on a more consistent naming scheme for old logfiles in ubuntu
<hunger> Some are *.1.log, some *.log.1, some are gzipped others are not.
<hunger> Some have have the numbers start with 0 others with 1.
<infinity> hunger: That depends on if daemons use logrotate or savelog or some internal mechanism.
<infinity> hunger: Everything using logrotate should have reasonably similar behaviour.
<hunger> infinity: Nope.
<hunger> infinity: Even the logrotate things are all different. Some compress their files, others don't. The number of files keapt seems to be more are less random.
<hunger> infinity: The schedule differs, but that is understandable:-)
<infinity> Having some keep more than others is intentional.
<infinity> Example of a logrotate-using package that keeps more than 3 logfiles and doesn't compress?
<hunger> infinity: Dunno what the default number of files is.
<hunger> infinity: dirmngr does not compress and uses the default number of files.
<infinity> Then file a bug.  That's not something I have installed. :)
<infinity> (And it's universe)
<hunger> infinity: Hmmm.... why do most packages specify "compress"? Why isen't the default value used as set up in logrotate.conf?
<sivang> can anybody see this issue - I'm cliking on the battery meter, and the network monitor on the upper right corner,
<sivang> and nothing happens
<sivang> when I got and right/left clikc on the panel somewhere where there are no applets,
<sivang> it behaves as expected.
<sivang> veyr weird
* sivang wonders if anybody else is also seeing this.
<sivang> hmm, it got released now
<sivang> *strange*
<sivang> nice, stuck again
<Fjodor> Am i wrong in assuming linx11-6 fiddles with iso-8859 locales instead of utf-8 ones? It seems that lib's own locales are of the iso variety, whereas other system locales are utf8?
<Fjodor> s/linx11-6/libx11-6
<jdong> sivang: I can't confirm that on my laptop or desktop running latest Dapper...
<jdong> and speaking of laptops and batteries....
<jdong> is there any GNOME mechanism of interacting with CPU frequency scaling, like powersaved/kpowersave for KDE?
<jdong> I find that to be a very useful feature
<sivang> jdong: see if all applets are accessible and respons by cliking hem with the touch pad,
<sivang> jdong: then, if so, leave it alone for few secs
<jdong> you mean tapping with the touchpad?
<sivang> jdong: then, go to the CPU scale freq applet that show the freq
<sivang> jdong: and give it a few taps
<sivang> jdong: , then try to right click one of the other applets
<sivang> jdong: yes
* jdong tries sivang's silly tapping routine :)
<rohan> hi all.. 
<highvoltage> hi rohan 
<rohan> i found this critical bug with espresso -- it always ALWAYS hangs when after i select what disk as swap / boot etc.
<rohan> hi, highvoltage 
<rohan> so what i did is
<rohan> straced through it
<jdong> sivang: certain tapping speeds will turn my cursor into a hand, and then the mouse cannot click interact with anything else
<mdke> rohan, you can file bugs at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs
<rohan> and did tail -f on another terminal
<jdong> sivang: is this what you're seeing?
<rohan> mdke: listen to me first. !
<mdke> rohan, it's a saturday, you're very unlikely to find the espresso developer online
<rohan> and on stracing, i found that the computer crashes COMPLETELY no mouse no X
<mdke> best to go straight to the bug tracker
<rohan> and strace shows waitpid(somepid, someno, NOHANG)
<jdong> rohan: we aren't all omnipotent..... your best bet is really the bug tracker....
<rohan> what i want to ask is .. is there any way to get the process attached to that pid ?
<rohan> jdong, mdke : thats what i intend to do.
<rohan> or atleast, get more verbose strace output ?
<rohan> and there is no way i can attach that log since pc crashes surely
<sivang> jdong: maybe, only I don't see the hand curosor
<sivang> jdong: and it just hangs, until I cleck on another spot ont the panel, or just attempt to ad a new panel applet
<jdong> sivang: I managed to get it stuck on a hand cursor permanently
<sivang> jdong: cool, I guess I just don't get the hand curoser
<jdong> sivang: I can't use keyboard or mouse clicks to interact with anything
<sivang> jdong: I wonder if this cpufreq's fault
<jdong> interesting thought
* jdong wonders if it happens with any other applet 
<sivang> jdong: since I tried that same scenario on al of the other applets, none of them exhibited the same behavior
<jdong> interesting
<sivang> (all of those that come pre-set on the panel, that is)
<jdong> are there any other applets that behave like cpufreq's, though
<jdong> i.e. no single or double click actions
<sivang> hmm
<jdong> I have a feeling GNOME's default action takes over
<jdong> which appears to be some type of move...
<jdong> but little random movements that seem to come with my inability to double-tap may be causing a weird situation
<sivang> jdong: okay, this now happend to me with double clicking without tapping
<sivang> jdong: so it's not strictly a tapping problem I'd say
<zyga> hello
<jdong> interesting
<zyga> sivang: hi, how are you?
<jdong> hi, zyga
<zyga> hey :)
<sivang> hey zyga , am fine, been bit of sick during before and a bit after the beta
<zyga> sivang: I'm sorry to hear that
<sivang> zyga: this is wy I was offline/ unresponsive
<zyga> hope you get better quickly
<sivang> zyga: thanks :)
<zyga> sivang: how did you like the new glade looks?
<sivang> zyga: re your GUI, I deferred using it for now, I made my original design packed and small such that it would fit into 1024x768, and I will most probably use your design  and aggregate on it for the next version, eventually I came to realize it caused me too much work to make it for the new one.
<zyga> okay
<sivang> zyga: I cherry picked the lozalization fixes, would like you to give them a go once you've got time
<zyga> sure, this evening maybe?
<sivang> zyga: and ofcouse, tried to kep the empty labels untranslated 
<zyga> I'm visiting parents today so no laptop with code :)
<sivang> zyga: we can do that tomorrow even,
<sivang> zyga: if it's more comfy to you?
<sivang> zyga: I don't require alot of time AFAICT
<zyga> I don't know - I'll probably be online hacking my kernel so just ping me if you need anything :)
<kmon> anyone knows why the linux-image-2.6.15-21 is not yet in the archive?
<sivang> zyga: okay, deal, if I see you online, I'll ping
<jdong> kmon: I was wondering the same
<jdong> kmon: also the l-r-m .32
<zyga> sivang: great :)
<kmon> jdong: yes. I wanted to try the new ati fglrx driver
<jdong> I've been anxiously waiting for a livecd image to contain both of these, so I can test it on the laptop I'm about to buy
<zyga> jdong: buy a mac :)
<jdong> kmon: likewise; this guy's got a X1400
<zyga> ubuntu fits nicely on a mac :)
<jdong> zyga: you find me a core duo mac laptop in the $1200 range, and we'll talk :)
<zyga> hehe
<jdong> zyga: I love macs. I really do. I just can't justify the price to myself
<zyga> I'm aiming for ibook g4 after they release mac book replacement for ibooks
* jdong buys @ optimal price/performance + disposability after two years ratio :)
<zyga> they'll be cheap and nice :D
<jdong> zyga: a G4 vs a core duo? ;)
<zyga> jdong: sure, g4 is all I ever need in a laptop
<zyga> the only thing better in the core duo is probably battery life if they managed to crank that 1/2 the laptop-size battery
<jdong> zyga: I'd say the same; but I do need a SMP system....
* sivang is sold for Thinkpads
<zyga> (note: g4 has really really small battery)
<jdong> zyga: single core systems don't keep up with my multitasking
<sivang> t43p especially :)
<zyga> :-)
<jdong> sivang: my 2nd pick was a lenovo...
<sivang> jdong: what kind of multi tasking are you doing?
* zyga has bought 2 itanium 2 CPUs yesterday 
<kmon> I recently bought a turion
<zyga> for whooping 30$
<zyga> :D
<jdong> sivang: parallel, time-intensive jobs
<kmon> nice chip
<zyga> now I need to wait till a mobo shows up
* sivang just bought a p-m t43p 1.8Ghz
<jdong> sivang: I can feel desktop performance lag from when I'm x264 encoding
<jdong> even with -ck + preempt 
<sivang> should I have aimed for Core Duo ?
<sivang> jdong: what's this about?
<zyga> geez h264 on laptop?
<jdong> sivang: right now, core duos are the best deal out there
<sivang> what's x264?
<zyga> jdong: h264 or x264?
<sivang> -ck = asian language support?
<jdong> sivang: h.264 aka MPEG-4 AVC.
<zyga> right :)
<sivang> ah, divx
<sivang> :-)
<jdong> sivang: x264 = open source implementation
<jdong> in Dapper :)
<zyga> we decode SD h264 stream on 100MHz CPU :-)
<zyga> note: there is no typo
<jdong> and -ck are Con Koliva's performance patchsets to the kernel
<jdong> zyga: idn; quicktime HD trailers bring my A64 3000+ to its knees
<kmon> jdong: does the ubuntu kernel include Con kolivas patches?
<jdong> kmon: no.
<zyga> jdong: memory performance, cpu performance probably the former
<jdong> kmon: these patches improve responsiveness. How they affect overall performance is somewhat disputed
<zyga> HD needs gobs of GB/s
<kmon> jdong: thanxs :)
<jdong> zyga: and dual channel 533MHz seeems pretty good for that :)
<sivang> oh man, how do I install it?
<zyga> jdong: frankly I don't want to watch HD on my laptop, I've got enouhg HD at work :)
<jdong> sivang: mencoder/mplayer/xine all understand h264 streams. mencoder can encode to it
<sivang> ah, so I already have it :)
<sivang> with mplaer
<jdong> zyga: I know. Just an extreme case. Most DivX quality h264's work great
<jdong> sivang: yep :). Gotta love Ubuntu
* sivang loves ubuntu very much.
<jdong> I'm really impressed with the h264 codec
<jdong> I can comfortably encode at 30-40% lower bitrates than xvid/divx/lavc mpeg4
<zyga> jdong: does mplayer implement the entire h264 spec or just the baseline?
<jdong> zyga: I am unsure. It uses libavcodec to decode.
<zyga> just curious
* jdong still really new to the world of video codecs
<zyga> me too but job requires pretty good knowledge of that stuff :)
<jdong> :)
<jdong> but either way, the core duo (and core's in general) are great chips
<jdong> the entry level one (1.66GHz) is just simply a bargain
<zyga> at least basic understanding for everyone, even if I never touch the h264 decoder myself
<zyga> jdong: frankly amd has better dual core cpus
<zyga> and core duo is just cheap
<jdong> zyga: :-/. It's being threatened right now.
<zyga> performance wise dual core sucks as hell
<mdke> guys, this is seriously offtopic
<jdong> lol
<zyga> -> #u-offtopic
<mdke> the developers often try and read the scrollback from this channel, try and keep it clean
<jdong> I need to get going anyway... got work to do today
<jdong> take care, everyone
<sivang> jdong: laters
* sivang -> off for some bits.
* infinity , ironically, just finished reading all this scrollback.
<sivang> infinity: I just wonder if those core duo thingy provide real performance boost overall and would feel different then a Sonoma T43p machine..
<hunger> sivang: Depends on what you do.
* mdke gives up with you guys
<zyga> guys guys
<zyga> let's go to #ubuntu-offtopic, mdke is right
<sivang> mdke: oops, sorry!
* sivang moves there
<bddebian> Howdy
<highvoltage> hi, where can i get ubuntu.ttf again?
<bddebian> Hello highvoltage.   I don't have a clue, sorry
<highvoltage> hello bddebian. ok, np.
<highvoltage> i found ploum!
<highvoltage> :)
<Treenaks> uhr no, he found you :)
<ploum> :-)
<highvoltage> hmmm.. a regulare chuck norris
<Treenaks> ploum = Chuck? oh no!
<ploum> I counted to infinity
<ploum> twice
<highvoltage> hehe
<highvoltage> ploum sleeps with the lights on... because the dark is afraid of him
<bddebian> haha
<ploum> if only it could be true with bugs...  that would be awesome 
<jdub> ploum: you sleep with the bugs on?
<Treenaks> When ploum approaches, all software bugs disappear: you don't bug ploum.
<ploum> jdub: not that much...
<ploum> and they are friendly after all
<ploum> Treenaks: it seems that my father is the opposite. when he seats in front of a computer, the computer crashes !
<ploum> Last time, he started his old laptop : the gnome top panel was at the bottom, under the normal bottom panel
<ploum> I don't even know it was possible !
<Treenaks> ploum: That's why we make Gnome for our mothers, not our fathers... my father has the same effect on computers
<Robot101> you can just drag them around and make as many as you want :P
<ploum> Robot101: but doing it just by booting the computer without even touching the mouse is a proof of some psychic power (it was shutdown last time by me, so it wasn't done before)
<ploum> I've just helped someone with Gnome 2.8 this thursday.
<ploum> Wow !
<ploum> Gnome 2.8 is so yesterday !
<ploum> I can believe I used it and was happy with it !
<azeem> I'm still using it at the uni
<giftnudel> oh, we have gnome 1.* at our university
<giftnudel> (on solaris)
<ploum> giftnudel: that is old, indeed..
<ploum> I just started with  Gnome 1.4 on Woody
<jdong> guys, mdke is going to get really upset.... :)
<Lathiat> ploum: what was the one before that?
<Lathiat> (woody)
* mdke points at #ubuntu-offtopic
* ploum hides
<jdong> :)
* Lathiat whistles casualaly
* Lathiat |aspell
<bddebian> \sh!!
<\sh> hey bddebian
* _ion got mdns/dns-sd working between LAN and VPN, whee
<zakame> hello \sh! bddebian! =D
<\sh> hoi zakame
<wasabi_> So who was working on an arm port? :)
<_ion> Beagle was --purge removed quite quickly from my dad's laptop after it ate all the RAM (512 MiB) and swap (800 MiB). :-)
<tseng> it would be nice if all the people complaining about high memory usage would get with upstream and debug
<tseng> and not make extremely vauge comments about it
<_ion> If i personally wanted to use it, i'd start debugging it.
<Robot101> tseng: why? if the solution they all arrive at is to remove beagle, then they're obviously not that concerned about whether or not they use it.
<tseng> Robot101: I guess.
<Mithrandir> Robot101: upstream might have an interest in fixing it, though
<Robot101> if they kept using it and kept complaining, it would be good to expect them to help fix it :)
<tseng> it happens to be an SoC item for someone to spend the summer profiling and reducing usage, luckily
<_ion> tseng: Nice.
<tseng> yeah, I hope someone runs with that
<tseng> because it seems to be becoming more and more of a corner case, my system only uses 70mb or so between all the beagle threads
<tseng> which is "too much" if you have 256 probably, but not that bad for me
<tseng> is not locking the screen on System - Logout - Sleep a bug or a feature?
<giftnudel> the live cd has a problem when it needs swap and wants to install the system - the default is to format swap ... well if you don't have enough ram, your screwed then
<tseng> Mithrandir: known bug, espresso install did put a resume= in my grub config?
<Lathiat> did or didnt
<tseng> did not
<Lathiat> i have an open bug about that
<tseng> great.
<Lathiat>  https://launchpad.net/bugs/40609
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40609 in initramfs-tools acpi-support "Dell Precision M20: Does not attempt resume from hibernate" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  
<tseng> against grub or installer?
<tseng> ok, thanks
<Lathiat> its supposed to be in some initramfs config file apaprently
<Lathiat> which doesnt seem to get created
<tseng> nice to see my alp touchpad really working now
<tseng> was that your doing?
<giftnudel> will the live cd look for swap partitions if I don't have enough memory?
<tritium> Lathiat: /etc/mkinitramfs/conf.d/resume is empty or not present?
<Lathiat> not present
<Mithrandir> giftnudel: yes
<giftnudel> Mithrandir: live cd/swap answer?
<Mithrandir> giftnudel: yes
<giftnudel> thx
<rohan> i finally installed using espresso the 6th time around
<rohan> so problem is, that it failed on installing grub. so now i have the complete system, but no grub. how do i "reinstall" it ?
<rohan> it didnt create menu.lst nor grub/ directory in /boot
<rohan> and it was meant to use /dev/hda2 for /boot but its using a directory /boot on the root partition
<rohan> so i have grub from another distro and can go into ubuntu, but how do i install grub "The Debian way" ?
<\sh> apt-get install grub
<\sh> and then do the grub-install run or whatever...but it should install grub by default
<rohan> \sh: that will create the proper grub/ dir in /boot ?
<rohan> and how do i 'migrate' my /boot to another dir i.e. /dev/hda2 ?
<\sh> only the stages of grub are installed in /boot/grub/ the bootloader itself is being installed in mbr or on the first partition
<rohan> ok
<rohan> so how do i 'migrate' my /boot to another dir i.e. /dev/hda2 ?
<\sh> rohan: you don't
<rohan> :|
<\sh>  /dev/hda2 is not a dir
<rohan> cant i ? 
<\sh> it's a device
<rohan> \sh: yea yea i will make ext2 on /dev/hda2 and all
<rohan> but then how do i "tell" it that /dev/hda2 is my boot ? fstab ?
<\sh> well, you have to install then a bootloader on /dev/hda1 or in the mbr of your boot harddrive
<rohan> ok, bbl
<rohan> lets see
<\sh> hmmm...looks like that he didn't understand the purpose of a boot loader
<rohan> \sh: ping
<\sh> rohan: pong
<rohan> \sh: now it gives a gpg error after apt-get update :S
<\sh> hum?
<rohan> and, oh joy, ubuntu-live was not apt-get remove'd
<\sh> which repositories do you have in sources.list?
<rohan> and "rohan<TAB>ALL=(ALL) NOPASSWD: ALL"
<rohan> how is that line incorrect ?
<rohan> \sh: the defualt, i uncommented uni and multi verse
<\sh> looks like that your installation went wrong somehow
<rohan> after failing 6 times, i am not really surprized to hear that
<rohan> and, as i said, the install just died -- no reason, no option to salvage it
<rohan> \sh: i reinstall'ed grub, it did not put stages in /boot and neither was menu.lst created
<rohan> now how do i re-create grub files
<rohan> boohoo :S
<\sh> first of all, you installed it via espresso right?
<rohan> yes, which failed 5 times, and worked upto copying files on the 6th
<\sh> try the normal install cd (dapper) then if you want to have a working system, or file bugs in malone (launchpad) against the espresso package
<rohan> but this system is working
<rohan> bandwidth is really low in india, i cant download iso's everyday :9
<rohan> :(
<rohan> what does espresso usually do after installing grub ?
<rohan> apt-get remove ubuntu-live ?
<\sh> .oO( i have to test the live cd installer tomorrow...oh wow my time schedule just went mad for tomorrow :()
<\sh> rohan: to be honest, I didn't have the time to test the live installer ... but promised, I'll test it tomorrow evening...
<rohan> \sh: test it on a p3 550mhz i810 256mb ram :)
<\sh> rohan: the only machine I can test here is the canonical laptop (toshibe portege r200, 512mb, 60 gb, i915, no cd drive) :)
<\sh> and that's the machine I have to test anyways...:)
<rohan> wow, wish i had something like _that_
* rohan is jealous
<rohan> and ^^ is the only pc i have .. p3 550mhz .. lol a joke ;)
<\sh> believe me, everybody will bug you what this machine is, and how small it is...and then you have to say: "But pbuilding packages on this machines nerves ":))
<rohan> :o even :)
<rohan> wow, i really _must_ reinstall using the install cd
<rohan> unfortunaltely
<rohan> see more errors
<rohan> hang one, installing gpm
<G0SUB_> rohan: hello ...
<rohan> G0SUB_: oh, hi, we meet again :)
<rohan> really, is there any way to salvage this broken install, or do i just reinstall using the text installer ?
<G0SUB_> rohan: again? when did we meet earlier? I am sorry I have a bad short term memory :)
<rohan> G0SUB_: #ubuntu-in when you lectured me why me must use GNU/Linux and not Linux or linux
<rohan> Use of uninitialized value in print at /var/lib/defoma/scripts/gs.defoma line 108.
<rohan> what error is _that_ ?
<G0SUB_> rohan: heh, and you left after that ?
<G0SUB_> rohan: that's just an warning ... you can ignore that
<rohan> G0SUB_: no, i dont really have time to be on irc .. exams in a month
<rohan> but, i have this strange s:save_cpo icon on my desktop
<G0SUB_> hmm, ok
<rohan> i cant find it in fstab ... no such mount
<rohan> and its 500mb big
<rohan> 464.8
<rohan> what is this s:save_cpo
<rohan> oops, no its just increasing !! its 3gb now
<rohan> oh _LOL_ its a legit mount
<rohan> but its being named as s:save
<rohan> and not /mnt/hda1
<rohan> ok, i am off
<rohan> if someone has solutions please memo :S
<catskul> anyone know what the name of the package is which contains the network "monitor applet" ?
<catskul> er... "network monitor" applet
<pitti> catskul: gnome-netstatus-applet ?
<pitti> hi jane_ 
<\sh> hey pitti...give me a short introduction into asoundconf pls :)
<catskul> pitti, thanks. Ill check on that
<\sh> good evening jane :)
<pitti> hey \sh 
<pitti> \sh: it's mainly designed as a backend tool
<\sh> pitti: yes...and I'm hacking on a kde frontend tool for asoundrc :)
<pitti> \sh: the manpage says it all, really, it's pretty shallow; it just adds/removes/checks stuff in ~/.asoundrc.asoudconf
<pitti> \sh: oooh, similar to the audio selector in gnome?
<\sh> so...if I want to change the default card (card 0) to card 1 
<\sh> I do asoundconf set default.pcm.card 1 or with the name?
<pitti> \sh: yep, setting the default sound card is the only thing we use it for now
<pitti> \sh: we used the number up to breezy, but using the name is better
<pitti> \sh: since it makes us independent of sound card ordering
<pitti> \sh: however, the current gnome tool has a bug I still need to fix
<\sh> pitti: ok...then I have a problem :)
<crimsun> pitti: btw, gnome-sound-properties (source: gnome-control-center) needs to set defaults.ctl.card, too
<pitti> \sh: you should set default.ctl.card to the same value as pcm
<pitti> crimsun: ^ :)
<\sh> the usb headset I'm using is named always "default" but changes the card number :)
<pitti> crimsun: yep, it's on my list of stuff to fix, for far too long, I admit
<pitti> \sh: really? aplay -l shows 'default' as the name? weird
<\sh> pitti: yes..
<\sh> shermann@toshiba-laptop:~/Projekte/kasound$ cat /proc/asound/cards
<\sh> 0 [ICH6           ] : ICH4 - Intel ICH6
<\sh>                      Intel ICH6 with AD1981B at 0x32080400, irq 169
<\sh> 1 [default        ] : USB-Audio - C-Media USB Headphone Set
<\sh>                      C-Media USB Headphone Set   at usb-0000:00:1d.3-2, full speed
<pitti> *shaking head*
<crimsun> pitti: I'm working through alsa-utils, will have a tiny debian/init addition to apply for Via82xx users so they'll have audible sound out-of-the-box. I'll coordinate with Thomas on alsaconf if you haven't already taken it, too.
<\sh> and depending on the mood of modules autoload sometimes default is 0 and sometimes 1
<\sh> pitti: if you are curious....saturn 20 eur usb headset of cmedia...the cheapest you can get :)
<pitti> \sh: I bought a logitech usb headset a while ago, when I wrote this selector :)
<\sh> but it works even with skype on dapper :)
<\sh> pitti: hehe...yeah it's one of the expensive ones :)
* robertj is thinking about a bluetooth headset of some sort
<Chipzz> could I ask a question about python-apt here?
<ForzaPalermo> hey can somoene help me, i am having problems with dapper thah ti just installed
<highvoltage> ForzaPalermo: best to ask in #ubuntu
<ForzaPalermo> i did no one is helping me :(
<highvoltage> sometimes you just need to be a little patient :)
<mdke> ForzaPalermo, forums/mailing lists are good too
<Chipzz> where could I ask a python-apt question? (sorry for repeating myself :P)
<Riddell> \sh: cool :)  are you going to make it a guidance module?
<\sh> Riddell: let me hack one version first, then we can test it...problem is that kde apps are not reloading the settings from asound.conf
<Riddell> \sh: killall amarok should sort that out :)
<\sh> Riddell: no :(
<\sh> Riddell: the xine engine is the problem:)
<Riddell> it needs X killed?
<\sh> total session restart
<\sh> well...I have more problems with usb headsets :)
<\sh> e.g. shortcutting the usb bus :) kernel doesn't unload the usb modules...and reinit of modules-init-tools doesn't help...shortcut is done via "laying in bed, and somehow the knee is beding the usb plug" ;)
<\sh> beding
<\sh> bending i mean..
<Riddell> "click here to reboot", very windows 95
<_ion> riddell: Not until the BSOD.
<robertj> btw, does anyone else think that there shouldn't be an update & reboot icon at the same time for update manager?
<\sh> good night gentlemen
<bddebian> Heya folks
#ubuntu-devel 2006-04-28
<ProN00b> will the behaviour of the eject cd button on the drive change with the next release ?
<mdke> ProN00b, the eject button on the cd drive should always have the same behaviour, regardless of release, because it is intended for one purpose only
<ProN00b> *_*
<mdke> (to eject the cd)
<mdke> I'd be really concerned if my eject button suddenly started muting volume, or shutting down, or something
<ProN00b> hmm, lemme try this again
<ProN00b> but it was a common problem in dapper that it did Not eject the cd
<HiddenWolf> ProN00b: intended behavior
<ProN00b> HiddenWolf, why ?
<ProN00b> why should a eject button not eject a cd ?
<ProN00b> what wicked logic is behind this
<HiddenWolf> ProN00b: I'm not the expert, but as far as I know it's not always possible to correctly catch the right hardware signal due to wacky hardware, and safely unmount/eject the disk
<HiddenWolf> I'd rather have to manually unmount it than starting to eject mounted disks
<ProN00b> then catch the signal, and try to unmount
<ProN00b> if unpossible display error
<HiddenWolf> Anyway, pitti should know
* HiddenWolf afk
<mdke> ProN00b, if something doesn't work, search the bugtracker, and if it isn't known already, file a bug. It's clearly not intended behaviour for the eject button to fail to eject
<ProN00b> ok
<ProN00b> another thing i have to flame about: why don't you include updated release versions of programms (ff1.5 usw... (ff might be a bad example because of libs)) ? (you could at least put them into universe or multiverse)
<Riddell> Kamion: about?
<ProN00b> hmm, why totem ?
<bddebian> Damnit, where do .mime files go again on install?
<bddebian> Heya slomo_
<robertj> is disk really the right group for raw1394?
<jsgotangco> lol i go to the impi linux website and ubuntu is classified as economy class
* jdong wonders when updated l-r-m and l-i packages will show up on mirrors :)
<crimsun> whenever k NEWs them. I wouldn't hold my breath -- probably Monday. Let 'im have the weekend at least.
<jdong> thanks, crimsun
<desrt> mmm.  the new artwork changes are nice
<kagou> hi
<sivang> morning all
<nomed> hi all
<highvoltage> anyone seen heno on IRC recently?
<jsgotangco> nope
<zakame> hi all
<\sh> moins
<jsgotangco> \sh, nice to see you back again
<zakame> hello \sh !
<ajmitch> hi
<\sh> jsgotangco: thx :) 
* sivang wonders if ubuntu-artwork is the right place to ask an icon for a program that will probably be in main for dapper+1
<sivang> see, I want it to be co-herent with the rest of the artwork
<sivang> anybody knows the difference between 'dip' and 'dialout' groups?
<sivang> I'm looking at malone #40802
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40802 in gnome-system-tools "in users-admin user privileges there are 3 modem entries" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40802
<lifeless> sivang: dialout get modem access, dip can run ppp when they dialin IIRC. (dial-in-ip) IIRC. 
<sivang> okay, so this needs clarification then
<sivang> what do you think about the audio entry?:
<sivang>   "audio"     => _("Use serial devices such as Modems and Palm Pilots."),
<sivang> this seems to be as a glitch ;-) 
<lifeless> wow, that seems confusing
<sivang> yes
<sivang> loudly confusing
<sivang> hmm, I wish pitti was here so I could have asked him about 'audio' group
<sivang> Keybuk: Heya Scott, maybe you could shed some light, is that exactly what audio group is about? :
<sivang> "audio"     => _("Use serial devices such as Modems and Palm Pilots."),
<sivang> (taken fro users-conf in s-t-b)
<sivang> lifeless: so dip is actually for being able to run ppp over a serial interface or so?
<lifeless> that was memory, I suggest goodle tc
<lifeless> tc->etc
<sivang> hmm google suggests you do need to be in audio to access some modems
<Keybuk> sivang: I think audio is largely a hang-over from Debian
<sivang> Keybuk: what happened to "Being able to play audio" ;-)
<Keybuk> I was just checking that
<Keybuk> indeed, audio is the group that can write to audio devices on the system
<sivang> Keybuk: I'm trying to help malone #40802
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40802 in gnome-system-tools "in users-admin user privileges there are 3 modem entries" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40802
<Keybuk> audio should be "Use audo devices"
<Keybuk> the other two "modem" devices -- one is describing actual modems, ie. pci and isdn modems
<sivang> Keybuk: okay, I need to find the patch that changed that, since this used to be like this once, and remove it, it's a start against confusing :)
<Keybuk> one is just describing serial ports in general
<sivang> yes
<Keybuk> obviously we can put actual modems in the modem group, but a serial device can be many things
<sivang> indeed. a serial connection between a laptop and a black VT box os so
<sivang> *or
<sivang> Keybuk: gotta run for a while, be back in 30 minutes.
* sivang -> back
<whiprush> Woo hoo! Convention Report = 800+ CDs distributed, ubuntu talk totally packed. World Domination, on schedule.
<jsgotangco> pfftt that's nothing when the LTS system gets in place
<jsgotangco> (Laser Targetting System)
<whiprush> word.
<jsgotangco> whiprush: i'm happy to know you're still awake at this time :)
<whiprush> Keybuk: dude I totally owe you some info on that one bug report, I feel shitty for it being so crappy in the first place.
<Keybuk> whiprush: heh, yeah :)
<sivang> Keybuk: so, as basw-passwd docs say:
<sivang> dialout = Full and direct access to serial ports. Members of this group can reconfigure the modem, dial anywhere, etc.
<sivang> I think I'll make a patch now :)
<\sh> I think /usr/sbin/dip was something like a dial in helper program for pppd...something like expect or chat
<whiprush> so dudes I'm on day three at this linux convention here at home, you guys wouldn't /believe/ the excitement around dapper. 
<whiprush> This guy from Google, chris dibona, is like, fanboi #1.
<ajmitch> whiprush: excellent
<ajmitch> whiprush: and you're whipping up the hype too?
<whiprush> my talk was packed.
<whiprush> it's just unreal man.
<jsgotangco> dibona was there?
<whiprush> yeah.
<jdub> whiprush: fun!
<jsgotangco> ajmitch: he was with dibona dude, talk about celebrity status
* jsgotangco is nort worthy of whiprush
<ajmitch> jsgotangco: almost as much of a celebrity speaker as you?
<whiprush> Dude so he's like "You guys won't believe how awesome ubuntu is. Stop what you're doing, get the CD."
<jsgotangco> naw i'm already past my prime
<\sh> I wonder who this dibona guy is?
<jdub> he heads up google's open source office
<whiprush> hi \sh!
<jsgotangco> \sh: he used to be one of the original slashdot editors
<jdub> he was previously with VA and so on
<\sh> oh this dibona guy :) yeah I remember :)
<jdub> whiprush: so when's the ohio linux thingy?
<whiprush> jdub: I talked to them today, in october, I have the contacts, I mentioned "the plan".
<whiprush> they will email you soon.
<jdub> whiprush: sweet
<Keybuk> "the plan" ?  is jdub living in airports for a month again?
<whiprush> jdub: looks like aseigo is a go too, it should be sweet.
<jsgotangco> "the plan"
<jdub> whiprush: are there public dates in october?
<whiprush> jdub: The dates just got finalized, I will email them to you as soon as the guy wakes up, I think I drank him under the table.
<\sh> aseigo could be the man to push kubuntu as no. 1 kde distro in europe
<jdub> \sh: probably better to get a european
<whiprush> jdub: there will be a python track this year too. You have no excuse. :D
<jdub> whiprush: rock, thanks :)
<jdub> heh
<jsgotangco> wou;d there be a shaving auction event too?
<\sh> jdub: well, he's sponsored by the trolls, he is a good spokesman for kde...ok, another choice would be mr. ettrich, but he signed already a crontract with the trolls :)
<whiprush> jdub: dude, I can't begin to explain how pumped up people are for dapper.
<whiprush> I've been flooded for three days of people.
<jsgotangco> Eft is the future!
<whiprush> from all walks of life ... it's been /amazing/
<whiprush> jdub: blog post will follow on the event of course.
<\sh> jdub: another idea is, stay a couple of months in the netherlands, get cloned with a bit of kde drugs in your blood, and kubuntu will have jdub2, the fanatic blue guy without pants ;)
<jdub> whiprush: lots of people at LWE sydney were pissed that dapper was delayed, and that i didn't have dapper CDs anyway - holy crap
<whiprush> jdub: oddly enough, when I explained the delay, I got nothing but nods.
<sivang> the plan, october etc, all of those linux conferences?
<jdub> \sh: the host would reject the transplant
<whiprush> I think a majority of them are still very happy with breezy.
<jdub> yeah
<jsgotangco> whiprush: that's pretty normal, breezy is incredibly stable for most people
<jdub> "okay, so you're telling me it's going to be better, and that there are good reasons for it... 'sok by me!"
<whiprush> jdub: until I did the last minute of XGL, then all of a sudden, they're all about edgy. :D
<jdub> heh
<jsgotangco> heh
<jdub> LWE was pretty funny
<jdub> i had dapper running with XGL on my 24" lcd
<sivang> jdub: oh, sweetness
<jdub> and the novell guys (with big fancy stand) only had videos of their XGL demo
<\sh> jdub: very sad, but then we need someone who is as charismatic as you, and have your skills to hypnotise the masses
<jdub> so everyone loved the linux australia stand
<whiprush> jdub: I did an ubuntu on sunray talk too.... 
<jdub> whiprush: how did that go?
<whiprush> GLEE.
<sivang> whiprush: what's sunray?
<jsgotangco> jdub: is there a linux presence in CeBit in Darling harbour?
<jdub> jsgotangco: now that i won't be away, i'll be there ;)
<jdub> jsgotangco: there are a bunch of local linux companies as well as LA and OSIA
<jdub> who will be there
<jsgotangco> ahh
<whiprush> sivang: a thin client.
<whiprush> so like, pre-edubuntu thin clients. :D
<jdub> jsgotangco: each of the cebit sections is called a 'parc' (numbskulls), and there is a 'linux parc'
<jsgotangco> jdub: yeah i was looking through the website a few days ago, i won't be anywhere near that place that time though
<jsgotangco> i will most likely be in hanover next year though
<jsgotangco> ohh LA is a sponsor
<jdub> jsgotangco: 'partner' more like ;)
<\sh> jsgotangco: so we can meet in hannover next year for an early morning visit to the bavarian cebit hall...to have a "Mass Weissbier and a Weisswurst" ;)
<jsgotangco> \sh: i'll take note of that, we're scheduled already for hannover as early sa now
<whiprush> jdub: I spent about an hour going over pessulus and sabayon, and explaining how we deploy mass desktops with custom profiles.
<whiprush> did the whole thing live, very cool.
* sivang wonders how one can manage a job / RF and attending so many events and conferences :-)
<\sh> jsgotangco: don't go there during the weekend..weekend is "collectors day"...better to visit the cebit the first 3-4 days....
<jdub> whiprush: rawk!
<jsgotangco> whiprush: they must have digged pessulus so much
<whiprush> jsgotangco: it's incredible, how even among linux people, how things like pessulus are not well known.
<whiprush> sabayon got people clapping though.
<jsgotangco> yeah
<jsgotangco> and deskbar?
<whiprush> Xnested thing, click and drag, make your profile, done and done.
<whiprush> oh dude, you know I did the deskbar. :D
<jdub> DONE.
<whiprush> so we made the profile, and I deployed a few different ones
* Keybuk doesn't "get" the desk bar
<whiprush> did some "deployment" stuff...
<whiprush> My last slide was called "Holy Crap!"
<\sh> whiprush: how do you massdeploy, via fai or kickstart?
<whiprush> which was showing the profile stuff stuffed into LDAP.
<whiprush> \sh: kickstart
<\sh> whiprush: oh well, when I'm finished with my project, let's talk about the "real thing" (tm) named FAI :)
<whiprush> so you can like, stick all the goodies in LDAP, and deploy the profiles by OU.
<whiprush> even the windows guys were impressed.
* sivang nods to \sh about the coolness of this buzzword ;-)
<jdub> \sh: fai is poop
<Keybuk> I have a cute demo I give to Windows users now
<Keybuk> I install dapper onto a laptop
<whiprush> \sh: I have lots of old RHEL kickstart scripts, so I just reuse those. ::D
<Keybuk> take the hard drive out, then boot it in a completely different laptop
<Keybuk> and watch their open jaws when it doesn't spend the next week playing the "Found new hardware" game
<sivang> Keybuk: hehe , they probably don't know what hit them :)
<jdub> Keybuk: tickling their abstract funny bone only gets you so far :-)
<Keybuk> or ever ask for the CD :)
<\sh> jdub: fai is the best thing to install and setup a lot of servers....
<whiprush> jdub: the one bummer is that I couldn't get gimmie to work out of cvs for a lightning talk, I really wanted to say "GNOME IS MADE OF PEOPLE!"
<jdub> whiprush: ha ha
<Keybuk> jdub: it's an extreme example, but it's not that unusual for even minor hardware changes to annoy Windows users -- it's a cute way to demonstrate Ubuntu deals with hardware changes perfectly
<Keybuk> well, other than X
<jdub> \sh: naw, it only seems like it. kickstart + cfengine is much better. (fai is like an abused kickstart plus a lame cfengine-lite, so why not go for the real deal?)
<whiprush> jdub: people really like the new add/remove programs, and gdebi.
<jdub> whiprush: yeah, the new g-a-i is really raising eyebrows
<jsgotangco> whiprush: did you get some new ideas for g-a-i?
<whiprush> jsgotangco: mostly just oohs and aahs.
<whiprush> most of my problem areas were non ubuntu specific, things like an oddball broadcom and whatnot
<\sh> jdub: kickstart is just like autoyast :) but with fai I can implement deployment not only of debian based distros but as well rpmdistros like suse or redhat (that's my project right now), and for rolling out configurations, fai is able to use cfengine1/2 ...which is again implemented by default
<j^> Keybuk only that pnp desktop resize with external monitors and projectors is more common than replacing the laptop of a harddisk
<\sh> jdub: and the main dev is sitting in cologne :)
<Kamion> can anyone tell me *why* on God's green earth pygtk's gtk.main() wrapper eats exceptions?
<Kamion> it's so dangerous
<jdub> j^: we should team up on daniels and harass him about x automagic stuff
<Riddell> is the kubuntu live fs being built?  today's live CD doesn't contain the new kubuntu-meta
<Riddell> or maybe a build time of  01:45:27 BST is too late for it
<j^> jdub first step would be Auto enabling and disabling Xinerama screens.<http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/SummerOfCodeIdeas>
<jdub> oh man
<jdub> i just had the most awesome idea for dapper release love
<Keybuk> oh aye?
<jdub> have to make sure it's viable first
<jdub> before i blather it
<\sh> space, the final frontier, these are the adventures of Ubuntu Dapper Drake...
<j^> \sh disk space?
<\sh> s/space/time/ ?
<sivang> heh
<sivang> \sh: I started reading Einsetien's Relativity book
<sivang> \sh: then one he claims is for "people with high scholl knowledge" to understand
<sivang> nice so far
<jsgotangco> heh
<\sh> sivang: good to know, that einstein himself was not good in school :) 
<sivang> hehe
<sivang> \sh: but it's true, he actually did physics in his spare time from the patent office in germany I think
<sivang> \sh: he used to be a patent accountant or something
<sivang> and he did not do so good at school
<sivang> (or maybe it was switzeland, can't recall)
<\sh> swiss :)
<sivang> right :)
<\sh> and he messed up with the university-entrance diploma :)
<sivang> \sh: heh, he did? did he try to cheat? :-)
<\sh> no...i just failed an exam :) 
<sivang> \sh: LOL
<\sh> so he had to repeat one school term
<\sh> http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Einstein.html
<sivang> \sh: nice, reading now
<jsgotangco> good night
<sivang> night jsgotangco 
<infinity> Riddell: I hadn't turned the dailies back on yet.  Doing now.
<Riddell> infinity: could you start a livefs build running?
<infinity> Riddell: Any particular arch you want?
<Riddell> infinity: all of them would be good
<Riddell> wanting to test ubiquity
<infinity> Riddell: Kay.  I'll do amd64/i386/powerpc.
<Riddell> thanks
<infinity> Want me to spin the ISOs when I'm done, or are you all over that?
<Riddell> if it's no hassle to you that would be lovely
<Kamion> Riddell: I'm working on all those "zapped my partition table" bugs, BTW
<Kamion> Riddell: there are basically three problems there
<mjg59> Kamion: Espresso doesn't always seem to cause a /etc/mkinitramfs/conf.d/resume to appear
<Kamion> Riddell: one is that ubiquity's UI throws an exception at all (and we just have to fix each of those in turn)
<Kamion> mjg59: s/always/ever/
<mjg59> Excellent
<Kamion> mjg59: I know, just heard about that in my mail this morning, will sort something out
<mjg59> Heh. No problem
<Kamion> Riddell: the second is that pygtk doesn't propagate exceptions beyond nested gtk.main() calls; I don't know if you have the same issue with pykde
<Kamion> Riddell: the third is that partman doesn't generally run with 'set -e' and so doesn't notice the debconffilter going away, and carries on merrily regardless
<Kamion> Riddell: to address the second, I'm going to add an exception handler to gtkui that puts up an exception dialog, asks people to file a bug, and then exits; you may like to do something similar in kde-ui
<Kamion> from ubiquity.frontend.yesnodialogue import YesNoDialogue
<Kamion> Riddell: ^-- you don't appear to have added that to bzr
<\sh> Riddell: btw...did you try the KGlobal.locale().insertCatalogue(...) for the translation stuff?
<whiprush> guys: i have to do my second ubuntu talk in a few hours, can someone summarize the core duo/wifi situation?
<jdub> 3945 stuff?
<whiprush> yeah
<jdub> i believe there's an effort to make sure what exists will be in the kernel
<jdub> but what exists right now doesn't seem all that hot
<mjg59> It's in the kernel
<jdub> so it might not be elite for dapper
<whiprush> ok, we're doing a manual three step process here.
<whiprush> it's the driver, the blob, and some other thing.
<mjg59> Driver is in the kernel, the rest is in l-r-m
<infinity> Driver, firmware, and binary-only daemon.
<mjg59> Just needs to get through NEW
<mjg59> I believe
* infinity nods.
<whiprush> metal.
<infinity> That's in progress right now.
<mjg59> Getting test feedback would be good
<mjg59> I've got no test hardware, and nor does infinity
<whiprush> mjg59: so I totally added to your mystique. I got a bunch of acpi questions.
<Chipzz> binary-only daemon? I thought intel was quite open wrt their wireless chipsets?
<mjg59> Chipzz: Yeah, the situation is a bit complicated
<whiprush> and my answer was "Top men are on it, they're very British, and don't go to his blog, unless you want to hear multiple instances of a C word I can't say here."
<mjg59> whiprush: Go ahead
<Chipzz> lemme guess... patents? :P
<jdub> child-molesters?
<mjg59> Hahaha
<mjg59> Chipzz: FCC
<mjg59> Chipzz: Actually, paranoid lawyers
<whiprush> something like "yeah, and so, the laptop guy is a total alcoholic ..."
<whiprush> "that's how screwed we are."
<mjg59> Aw. I had one small glass of vodka yesterday.
<mjg59> And really quite a lot of beer the night before
<\sh> that's nothing
<Chipzz> mjg59: vodka-redbull! ;)
<Chipzz> mjg59: anyway, what's different compared to ipw2[12] 00 for the lawyers?
<\sh> Chipzz: that's pestilent :)
<Chipzz> pestilent?
<jdub> Chipzz: the norty stuff is done in software instead of firmware/hardware
<Chipzz> jdub: "win-wifi"? :P :/
<jdub> yes
<Chipzz> crap
<Chipzz> have they learned NOTHING then?
* Chipzz sighs :(
<Chipzz> you thought that after the whole win-modem debacle people would know better
<Chipzz> ffs :(
<Kamion> Riddell: could you add -I.bzrignore to the list of flags you pass to dpkg-source when building packages? I don't think there's much point in including .bzrignore in ubiquity source packages.
<\sh> Chipzz: the redbull stuff in vodka
<Chipzz> 14:00 < mjg59> Chipzz: Yeah, the situation is a bit complicated
<Chipzz> hrrrm
<Chipzz> nm that
<whiprush> \sh: msg me please.
<Kamion> Riddell: also your source tree isn't quite clean - you have debian/ubiquity-guadalinex-doc/ lying around there (which is commented out of debian/control, so debian/rules clean doesn't clean it)
<infinity> Chipzz: Having software control the Tx/Rx power seems perfectly reasonable to me.  It just also happens to be something the FCC would prefer was obfuscated and not generally available.
<infinity> Chipzz: So, Intel releases a binary-only daemon to make the FCC happy and limit their liability, and other people reverse engineer it and provide a free alternative at their own risk (just as people take to wifi firmware with hex editors to make FCC-unfriendly changes currently)
<Chipzz> hrrrm
<Chipzz> could be worse I guess
<infinity> Chipzz: In the end, if a free alternative is produced, I doubt the FCC will go after them, but Intel would prefer not to lose FCC licenses or suffer fines.  Individuals likely care less.
<Chipzz> infinity: and individuals would also be "less liable"?
<Chipzz> (is that even a word, liable? :P)
<infinity> Anyhow, the situation is a bit icky, the binary-only daemon is rather sketchy, but word on the street (from people who own the hardware) is that it works.
<infinity> Chipzz: Individuals would be just as liable for pissing off the FCC, but if they do it outside the US, there's nothing they can really do about it.
<Chipzz> infinity: what's the situation for us if people DO reverse engineer it?
<infinity> And then the only people breaking the law are people who use the new free/open code to increase their transmission rates further than the law allows, which is your own risk, no one else's.
<infinity> At any rate, the FCC's ability to demand obfuscation of code to change Tx power is sketchy at best.  They may feel the urge to test it in court against someone they can make an example of (Intel, Broadcom, etc), but I doubt they'd care to go after Joe Q Hacker.  Don't take that as solid legal advice to go do it, though.
<Chipzz> so, either we include a binary only daemon, OR, we do not include a reverse engineered daemon?
<infinity> I'll just wait for some enterprising Australian resident (oh wait, I live in .au) to do it.
<infinity> Chipzz: Erm, what?  No.  Either we include the binary daemon, or we include a free/open one when one is made available.
<Chipzz> either way it still sucks
<Chipzz> "14:15 < infinity> And then the only people breaking the law are people who use the new free/open code"
<infinity> Chipzz: Distributing it doesn't constitute circumvention any more than distributing a free zip file password cracker.
<Chipzz> wouldn't that be a problem?
<infinity> Chipzz: You cut off my sentence.
<infinity> Chipzz: "people who use it to increase their Tx rates out of FCC-allowed spec"
<infinity> Anyhow, way offtopic, not sure why I'm discussing this here.
<Chipzz> sorry about that, didn't want to misrepresent what you said... guess I just misunderstood
<Chipzz> k will shut-up now ;)
<sivang> infinity: not to mention the damage of radiation :)
<sivang> infinity: when in access outside the limits, that is
<Chipzz> sivang: the animals in tschernobil also survive... so will our children ;)
<kmon> Hi. Anyone knows why the linux-image & linux-restricted-modules 2.6.15.21 update isn't available yet?
<sivang> Chipzz: not sure how those experiments are conducted ;-)
<infinity> kmon: Happening as we speak.
<Chipzz> sivang: experiments? :)
<kmon> infinity: Oh. Great :)
<sivang> Chipzz: never mind, let's cut the off topic ness :)
<Chipzz> sivang: uhu :)
<sivang> infinity: so I heared yo're pulling in support for the new ATIs in the 60's :-) Couldn't you do that before I purchased my T43? 
<Kamion> kmon: when package names change, they go into the new queue for manual approval.
<sivang> that is, for the {T|X}60's :-)
<infinity> Kamion: Dude, is there a particularly sane reason why cron.daily-live returns instantly and does... Well... Nothing?
<sivang> ah , actually not much of a problem, the current fglrx is giving nasty corruption that might still be worthwhile debugging even
<highvoltage> sivang: i think the T43's are nicer than the 60's anyway :)
<sivang> highvoltage: that's a first timer, and a cheering hand! Let me know your reasons :)
<mdke> (in another channel)
<highvoltage> sivang: well, first of all, the X60's are damn ugly
<highvoltage> sivang: it's also a bit big, i like the idea of having a laptop that's at least mobile
<highvoltage> sivang: and that big screen also drinks battery power like it's Sprite lite.
<sivang> highvoltage: they claim to have ground breaking battery life :)
<sivang> together with dual core processing, this seems a bit unreal
<highvoltage> mdke: sorry, were you talking to us?
<mdke> yeah
<sivang> highvoltage: he's right, PMing
<sivang> mdke: even though it's sunday? :-)
<sivang> O:-)
<infinity> Kamion: Oh.  Filesystem's full.  Feh.
<Kamion> infinity: /dev/sda3            562456664 533885524         0 100% /
<Kamion> I'll sort it out
<mdke> sivang, it looks to me like the developers are trying to do some work, so yeah, keeping to the topic is important even today
* infinity never seems to look there first, until something whines about it.
<infinity> (In this cash, baz whined)
<infinity> s/cash/case/
<sivang> mdke: noted, agreed, sorry again :)
<infinity> FWIW, I don't mind much when people let their hair down a bit on the weekend and go a bit off-topic here.  Others may care more, though. :)
<sivang> infinity: all I can say, that I'm greatful for you giving an off topic advice here once, about getting 1400x1050 on a thinkpad :)
<Kamion> infinity: little should be happier now
<mdke> mjg59, I'm getting a debconf question for the latest acpi-support, is that intended?
<mjg59> mdke: No
<mjg59> Especially since it doesn't have any debconf support
<mjg59> What's the issue?
<infinity> Uhm, yeah.  No debconf at all...
<infinity> mdke: Do you mean a conffile prompt?
<infinity> (That would be intentional)
<mdke> ah could be
<mdke> sorry, I heard once that users shouldn't ever see those questions
<mdke> is that wrong?
<infinity> No, users shouldn't ever see them IF no conffiles actually got changed.
<infinity> You quite probably chnaged yours. :)
<mdke> yes, I did. fine, thanks
<infinity> Kamion: Thanks.
<infinity> Riddell: You have new ISOs.
* \sh has to download an actual ubiquity source package..
<zul> heylo
<bddebian> Howdy
<\sh> hey bddebian
<bddebian> Hi \sh!
<Surak> Kamion, I noticed the name of espresso changed to ubiquity. What happened?
<jpatrick> Surak: make it more Ubuntu-ish
<infinity> And give it some more meaning, as well...
<infinity> "espresso" was meaningless, if you didn't know the name was derived from "Ubuntu Express"
<infinity> But Ubiquity has meaning in itself, as in "we want Ubuntu to be Ubiquitous, and Ubiquity will help make that happen".
* infinity still has a fondness in his heart for pitti's "Prestobuntu" suggestion, though.
<bddebian> hehe
<Surak> prestobuntu reminds me of 'prestobarba', the most popular razor blade in brazil
<bddebian> infinity: I don't suppose you ever got a chance to take a look at ivtools?
<infinity> Nope, I've been busy slacking with beta releases and then falling deathly ill.
<bddebian> Ugh, sorry to hear that
<bddebian> Heya zakame
<zakame> hello bddebian! :D
<infinity> Riddell: Also, kdelibs is FTBFS, due to mismatched types in the cups stuff; kdewebdev is FTBFS trying to iterate a for loop over an empty glob.
<infinity> Diziet: Your mozilla-firefox-locale-all upload fails to build.
<infinity> Diziet: Your pango1.0 is also FTBS.
<mdke> ah, that explains the homepages breaking
<ssam> am i right in thinking that kde applications (eg kword) are hidden from the gnome menu? should Bug #40501 be rejected?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40501 in koffice kword "Kword does not appear in menu" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40501
<bddebian> mdke: Were you the one that was helping my dumb ass with anjuta?
<mdke> bddebian, no, sorry
<bddebian> NP
<infinity> Diziet: Ahh, nevermind the pango1.0 failure, you should have just used a versioned build-dep on the newer fontconfig.  Tsk, tsk.
<bddebian> mdke: Well, what do you know about mime/xml files? :-)
<Riddell> ssam: they are not generally hidden
<infinity> Diziet: And mozilla-firefox-locale-all seems much happier with a build-dep on ubuntu-docs.  Fix uploaded.  You're off the hook.
<infinity> Riddell: You get to fix your own this time, though. :)
<Riddell> infinity: yep, thanks
<ssam> Riddell, so it is a bug that kword does not show in the gnome menu? rather than policy?
<Riddell> ssam: yes
<bddebian> Missing/broken .desktop file?
<sivang> anybody seen smurf ?
<bddebian> Heya sivang
<bddebian> Not in the last 20 years or so.. ;-P
<bddebian> Hello pitti, Burgundavia
<Burgundavia> salut bddebian
<infinity> bddebian: And you get the lyx FTBFS, since you uploaded it last.  Enjoy.
<sivang> hey bddebian 
<sivang> bddebian: heh
<sivang> hey pitti , 'sup?
<bddebian> infinity: It FTBFSd?
<infinity> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/lyx/1.3.7-0ubuntu2
<infinity> That list of 6 build failures looks pretty failed to me.
<bddebian> Ack, WTF I didn't get that locally.. Grr
<\sh> pbuilding ?
<\sh> or chrooting?
<\sh> looks like you didn't run make debian/rules clean before :)
<bddebian> Typically pbuilder
<\sh> then it's not installed in the right place...debian/lyx.xml looks quite strange :)
<pitti> hi bddebian, hey sivang 
<\sh> ok...cu later gentlemen...
<infinity> pitti: Okay, looks like someone's packaged php-sqlite3 in Debian.  So, I'm just going to split php-sqlite out of the PHP source completely, so we can punt it to universe.
<jdub> !
<pitti> infinity: cool
<jdub> but the lampies will cry
<pitti> infinity: just wait with it until you are back to good health
<infinity> pitti: Yeah, I may work on some Debian stuff on the laptop in bed tomorrow between naps.
<pitti> jdub: it's just to get sqlite0 to universe and use sqlite3 consistently
<infinity> pitti: Cause you know how good I am at avoiding computers. :/
<jdub> *oh*
<jdub> bonus :)
<infinity> I mean, here I am, I've completely lost my voice, and it's late Sunday night (technically Monday morning now), and I'm hunting build failure instead of sleeping.  Go me. :/
<infinity> Perhaps I should go try to sleep again.
<pitti> infinity: have your gf take away all your computers
<infinity> Then I'll just use hers.
<jdub> pitti meant your-plural
<bddebian> Ack, where the fsck did that come from.  There isn't a lyx.xml anywhere in the package...
<jdub>  moon-lander (1:1.0-4ubuntu2) dapper; urgency=low
<jdub>  .
<jdub>    * Install moon-lander.desktop from debian/ instead of from $(CURDIR)
<jdub> 
<jdub> infinity: GO TO BED
<bddebian> jdub: ?
<infinity> But mo-ooooom, I want to stay up and watch Night Court!
<bddebian> heh
<jdub> on the moon?
* jdub also goes to bed
<nomed> Kamion: ping
<nomed> Kamion: could you check please the bug #40095 again ?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40095 in espresso "from poke_gnome_screensaver to turn_off_screensaver" [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40095
<nomed> xscreensaver-command --disable should be --deactivate
<nomed> i'm tetsing now espresso .. and it gtkui has the wrong opt for xscreensaver
<Kamion> nomed: y'know, I do read e-mail. No need to poke me on IRC too. :)
<nomed> Kamion: well i wrote the email later :)
<nomed> Kamion: one other question ..
<Kamion> fix committing, anyway
<nomed> what is time-admin ?
<Kamion> part of gnome-system-tools
<Kamion> should be in xubuntu-system-tools or whatever it's called as well
<nomed> espresso freeze in xubuntu
<nomed> for that cmd
<nomed> xubuntu-system-tools is not yet in main
<nomed> :/
<Kamion> I could make the button invisible if time-admin isn't available
<nomed> it's absolutely needed
<Kamion> not really
<Kamion> well, not for ubiquity anyway
<nomed> or just add gnome-system-tools in deps 
<Kamion> it's not a dependency, but I'll recommend it
<beerockxs> why does xchat-common depend on xchat?
<infinity> beerockxs: Because it's useless without it?
<Kamion> nomed: fixes in my bzr branch
<beerockxs> infinity: xchat-gnome depends on it
<beerockxs> infinity: I don't want both xchat and xchat-gnome
<nomed> Kamion: perfect 
<infinity> beerockxs: No it doesn't...
<infinity> beerockxs: xchat-common has nothing to do with xchat-gnome.
<beerockxs> infinity: erm, oops. nevermind me, I'm stupid
<highvoltage> infinity: aren't you supposed to be in bed by now?
<infinity> Yes.
<doko> Kamion: zope: zope-externaleditor_0.8-2.1 is already in the archive, although apt-cache showsrc still shows the 0.8-1ubuntu1 version
<Kamion> zope-externaleditor | 0.8-1ubuntu1 | dapper/universe | all
<Kamion> zope-externaleditor |    0.8-2.1 | dapper/universe | source
<Kamion> odd
<Kamion> FTBFS?
<doko> yes, missing build dep
<doko> fixed in the version you are syncing
<Kamion> ok, will override. Unfortunately all syncs are blocked on bug 40958
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40958 in qprocd "all sync attempts fail" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40958
<Kamion> I'll poke cprov about that tomorrow
<doko> Kamion: ohh, ok, then you do have time processing some NEW stuff? ;-)
<nomed> Kamion: the [ubiquity (?) |espresso]  installation worked fine this time ..
<nomed> juts an issue with gparted that could re-format  a partition ... i couldn't debug it ..
<nomed> s/could re-format/couldn't/
<Kamion> doko: I'll do some of them, at least. Also you say that as if I haven't done any NEW processing today, which isn't true :P
<doko> Kamion: no, I didn't mean that. sorry if it did sound like that
<Kamion> heh
<Kamion> np
<doko> Kamion: my interest was to get azureus in, others required by that are glib-java, cairo-java and bouncycastle
<slomo> doko: does azureus finally run with classpath? there was a missing class last time i tried
<Kamion> doko: yep, all done now
<Kamion> doko: you asked for bouncycastle to go to main, but we only do that if it's split out from something already in main or else really really obviously OK, so I've put it in universe; if you want it in main, get pitti to check it over as usual
<Kamion> somebody had already done openoffice.org-gtk, it seems
<Kamion> (infinity I think)
* Kamion finally realises the real root cause for espresso eating people's partition tables, and curses Python
<doko> Kamion: ohh, no, it should stay in universe, not main. 
<Kamion> whose bright idea was it to install a SIGPIPE handler by default, and then not have the subprocess module set it back to the default
<doko> slomo: which one?
<slomo> doko: something ssl related... but it's some months ago so everything could've changed
<doko> slomo: at least it's not needed for _building_. I know that classpath is still lacking ssl support.
<sivang> re all
<slomo> doko: hm... i can try again tomorrow maybe... but it would be nice to have this in the archives :)
<bddebian> Ah ha, it wasn't my fault.  New upstream of lyx whacked my lyx.xml
<sivang> bddebian: excuses, excuses! :-D
<bddebian> That's what I do best. ;-P
* sivang ROTFLS
<sivang> mjg59: I see you turned off the default to use laptop-mode on batt power, should I expect batt life reduction if I install the package shipped conf file?
<jdong> I hope that's a temporary workaround, though :)
<jdong> sivang: laptop-mode had this nasty bug where it'd spin down drives every 5 seconds
<zyga> hmm, I'll ask a nasty question: did anyone notice problems with network-manager dying with 'cannot find required component'
<jdong> zyga: yes; installing nm-applet and a logout/login fixed that
<zyga> jdong: hmm :)
<zyga> missing dependency 
<jdong> :)
<zyga> thanks, did you file a bug?
<jdong> no; I did not
<zyga> the UGLY thing is I already have a binary called nm-applet
<zyga> *g8
<jdong> yeah
<zyga> hmm?
<jdong> I thought nm-applet was supposed to be an empty metapackage
<zyga> nm-applet is empty
<jdong> (transitional package)
<zyga> right
<jdong> :-/
<zyga> hmm
<zyga> queer
<zyga> I'll relogin to be sure
<mjg59> sivang: Yes
<jdong> the complaint from nm-applet was a missing VPN lock ico
<jdong> icon*
<sivang> mjg59: this is due to what jdong said? :)
<mjg59> sivang: No
<mjg59> It's /supposed/ to spin drives down
<mjg59> It just also had a nasty habit of hanging the machine
<zyga> hmm
<sivang> mjg59: okay, just to tell you that it's pretty amazing - the drive is almost always turned off, I made a record breaking uptime on batt with this new 9 cell t43p compared to windoze :)
<sivang> mjg59: and it's a 7200 rpm drive :)
* sivang rejects the package conffile changes.
<zyga> hmm
<zyga> ugly
<zyga> I remember something bad during boot process, usplash going out and something blinked for a moment regarding network manager dispatcher
<sivang> zyga: see, the spindowns can annoy you at times, buf if you're calm, working on code not doing anything IO intensive it makes your laptop run and run ane run...:)
<sivang> jdong: I take it you were bothered by the spin donws?
<zyga> sivang: my laptop has a dead battery
<zyga> :-)
* zyga will reboot to be sure
<sivang> mjg59: however, I'm using fglrx and resume/suspend only comes back if I wake it up again after a *short* period of time
<mjg59> sivang: Shrug.
<mjg59> I recommend not doing that :)
<sivang> mjg59: well, you've done a wonderful job in enabling agresive power savin, why should I refuse to use it ? :)
<mjg59> Fixing fglrx bugs is basically impossible for us
<mjg59> Whereas ati just got fixed to do suspend/resume on PCIE hardware
<sivang> mjg59: hmm, the t43p is all PCI-E ?
* sivang searches thinkwiki
<sivang> yay, good fonts are back
<mjg59> sivang: Yes
<zyga> aww
<sivang> mjg59: I see there are already attempts to make the Accelerometer work under linux, maybe we could start working on a nice pack for next relead - fingerprint (will check this later think week) , the acceleration sensor, maybe even offering iBM to port "Access IBM" to ubuntu? 
<shaya> #thincback
<shaya> argh
<mjg59> Fingerprint stuff requires non-free drivers
<sivang> mjg59: ah, againt the dreadful code sharing agreenments etc?
<sivang> (like with fglrx)
<zyga> does anyone have network-manager crashing?
<shaya> anyone else having panic's on X startup due to fglrx?
<mjg59> sivang: I'm just not going anywhere near any closed-source code if I can possibly help it
* sivang wished there was a way to make IBM release the specs
<Keybuk> to?
<mjg59> The fingerprint reader isn't designed by them
<mdke> meh, the fingerprint reader is a total waste of time, at least on windows
<mdke> if you disactivate it, it feels like you've just got an extra gig of ram
<sivang> mdke: for some reason, even after I've enabled it, it still auto logs on after telling to swipe finger an waiting few secs
<sivang> mjg59: who does?
* mdke topic-censors himself
<sivang> seems accelerometer driver is in mainline, maybe it only required a GUI now...
<highvoltage> mdke: setting an example? :)
<mjg59> sivang: UTEK
<mjg59> Uh
<mjg59> UPEK
<sivang> UPEK ?
<sivang> nice, there are already some applets. only need packaging if not already in debian. /me checks
<sivang> (for accelerometer)
<shaya> accelerometer needs more than that
<Keybuk> sladen was geeking over one at Debconf last year
<shaya> needs a way to park the disk to be of real use
<Keybuk> trying to make it an input device or something
<shaya> I'm unconvinced it can be done efficiently from user space
<Keybuk> shackan: hdparm -Y isn't it?
<mjg59> No
<mjg59> That just gets woken up again by the kernel
<_ion> Wouldn't be fun if the accelerometer daemon process just happened to reside in swap, when the laptop fell to the floor. :-)
<zyga> _ion: har har
<zyga> _ion: isn't that a kernel code?
<_ion> zyga: I was talking about a hypothetical userspace daemon.
<zyga> _ion: mlock could help
<_ion> zyga: Note the ":-)"
<zyga> oh 
<zyga> I'm too serious today ;] 
<_ion> Maybe ";-)" would have been more appropriate.
<sivang> shaya: accoridng to THinkWiki, there is a kernel patch that allos an HD to be protected by a user space process.
<shaya> yes
<zyga> sivang: how fast the hdd can spin down?
<shaya> I'm unconvinced in its efficiency
<zyga> less than 0.5s?
<sivang> shaya: ah, i see
<mjg59> There's an emergency park command
<sivang> zyga: no idea
<mjg59> You don't actually want it to stop spinning, you just want the heads to be away from the platters
<sivang> exactly
<zyga> mjg59: what if the heads got stuck in an emergency jam ;-)
<sivang> so they won't scratch the metal of the platter
<zyga> ah
<zyga> smart
<zyga> the heads can probably seek away quite fast
<TTT_Travis> TomB!
<shaya> its not just how long it takes kernel to react
<shaya> its how long it takes process to react
<shaya> prone to scheduler whims
<sivang> "A kernel patch is required for disk head parking and queue freezing."
<sivang> what does it mean about "queue freezing" ?
<shaya> sivang: if you don't freeze the IO queue, heads will depark right away
<zyga> sivang: probably io-queue
<sivang> shaya: ah, inside the kernel right?
<_ion> IMO that should be something entirely done by hardware. The accelerometer controller should be able to tell the HDD{,s} to park the heads immediately. The OS would receive the event, but it wouldn't need to react.
<sivang> _ion: is the same on windows, as per "by design" :-)
<_ion> Something like human's reflexes  the hardware has already reacted, when the OS receives and handles the event. :-)
* zyga is thinking about unofficial, underdog, abandonware packaged for ubuntu...
<KaiL_> nice to read about ipw3945 in the Changelog - good work ;)
<KaiL_> now only ATi is missing to say that at least in theory all current laptops are fully supported :)
<mjg59> KaiL_: Being worked on, though no promises
<KaiL_> mjg59, todays kernel images include ipw3945
<mjg59> KaiL_: Yes, I meant ATI
<KaiL_> ah, ok
<sivang> _ion: tell that to those producing the sensor :)
<jdong> KaiL_: ATI is still missing what?
<KaiL_> jdong, means there is still no driver for Radeon X1400 and friends in ubuntu
<Tm_T> interesting
<jdong> KaiL_: that was just uploaded with the ipw3945
<Tm_T> looks like there's bunch of screensavers disappeared
<KaiL_> ah, really
<KaiL_> Changelog for restricted modules didn't mention that
* jdong pulls up changelog
<jdong>  linux-restricted-modules-2.6.15 (2.6.15.9-1) dapper; urgency=low
<jdong>  .
<jdong>    * Update fglrx to 8.24.8, which includes support for the Radeon X1n00 series
<jdong>      and the Mobility Radeon X1n00 series cards (closes: launchpad.net/39924)
<KaiL_> hmm, more than one entry, that's why I didn#t see it
<KaiL_> I should think about getting a daily build live-CD to try on an Core Duo Laptop ;)
<jdong> KaiL_: likewise; I got my eyes set on one with a X1400, too
<KaiL_> I tried an FSC Amilo Pi1536 with Flight6, on which ipw3945 and the X1400 where the only visible problems, so it SHOULD be fully supported now - the only question, as always, is suspend
<KaiL_> and the SD reader, but that seams to be hopeless for now
<jdong> cool
<jdong> elmo: can you push through some of the backports requests for breezy?
<jdong> elmo: I'm starting to get some users impatient around here :(
<jdong> elmo: (https://launchpad.net/people/elmo/+assignedbugs), there's only around 5 packages
<KaiL_> backports are evil :p
<KaiL_> and somebody blame ATI for being even to stupid, to fill the "version" field for their module
#ubuntu-devel 2006-04-29
<mroth> can anyone comment on bug 30984?  It seems serious enough to warrant the newer version of powernowd despite UVF.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 30984 in powernowd "(Dapper) kernel 2.6.15.15-686 breaks freq scaling on core duo" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30984
<jdong> mroth: if I'm reading that bug report properly, powernowd does not currently scale the 2nd processor?
<jdong> that is indeed an issue
<mroth> jdong: thats the issue.  CPU0 scales freely, CPU1 stays at 100%
<mroth> jdong: one of the last comments on the bug seems to suggest its fixed upstream in powernowd 0.97
<jdong> that's undesirable for Dapper. Multi-core systems are going to become ubiquitous
<mroth> agreed.
* jdong tries on a SMP box
<jdong> yes, it is true
<jdong> and damn are those core duos fast at compiling powernowd!
<jdong> a sloppy 0.97 "backport" does fix the problem
<jdong> although the modprobe order is still finicky
<jdong> whether or not I need to manually add the speedstep modules to /etc/modules
* bddebian drop kicks lyx
<coz_> ok I just downloaded the current dapper daily build
<coz_> i installed it using the espresso installer
<coz_> first there is no screen resolution chooser in the espresso installer bad move
<coz_> second five (5) clean installs on four machines created the same results after the updates System would not boot
<coz_> now i understand that dapper is in beta etc etc, however please if you have updates make sure they ar completely tested before posting them
<Keybuk> coz_: daily builds aren't tested
<Keybuk> that's kinda the point
<Keybuk> they're builds *to* test
<coz_> this also happened with a flight cd when the updates were installed
<Keybuk> if you wanted a tested build, you wanted the Beta or Flight releases
<Keybuk> Flights are tested before release
<coz_> Keybuk, same thing happend with the flight cds
<Keybuk> if you have a problem, then it's one that is unique to your machine
<coz_> well not well enough with the updates
<coz_> Keybuk, four different machines identical results
<Keybuk> interesting
<coz_> we do testing building and installations as well as system integrations here
<Keybuk> there are probably a million working dapper installs right now
<coz_> same results on all machines with the cirrent updates linux images etc
<Keybuk> so you have a cute bug
<coz_> they do not work
<coz_> Keybuk, not me you guys
<Keybuk> thanks for helping us test Ubuntu
<Keybuk> what's the particular problem?  is there an error during boot
<coz_> Keybuk, I take this os seriously I have to support with clients
<coz_> ] now none of them have dapper yet but I deal with clients programmers etc all day long
<Keybuk> we would not suggest you ship dapper at this time
<Keybuk> obviously once it's released it will be fully supported
<coz_> Keybuk,  yes yes I undersatnd but had to vent
<Keybuk> venting isn't useful, it's just rude in general
<Keybuk> if you have a problem, then it's reasonably safe to assume you have a problem nobody else has had
<coz_> Keybuk, this venting is neither rude or anything other than constructive 
<Keybuk> if dapper didn't work for anybody, we wouldn't be online right now :)
<Keybuk> so let's do something more constructive
<coz_> it is a fact that has occurred to day five times clean installs
<Keybuk> what's the problem you're having?
<coz_> system does not boot after installation of cirrent updates particularly the linux kernel updates
<Keybuk> ok, "does not boot" is rather vague
<Keybuk> I assume that it at least powers up and gets the machine past POST
<Keybuk> so it's at least partially booting
<Keybuk> at some point, the boot must fail
<coz_> cannot read root file system
<Keybuk> ok, now there's two different errors
<Keybuk> is it unable to identify the type of the root filesystem
<Keybuk> or is it unable to find the root filesystem
<Keybuk> what's the _exact_ error message/
<coz_> I will do ti again write everything down for you
<Keybuk> ok
<coz_> i will do this on three machines
<coz_> be bback in about an hour or so
<Keybuk> gah
<Keybuk> he went too quick
<ajmitch> heh
<HrdwrBoB> it's quite possble that devices get reordered or something
<ajmitch> nice & polite
<bddebian> heh
<Keybuk> ajmitch: if you're still here in an hour, tell him I've gone to bed :p
<ajmitch> I doubt I'll be here in an hour either
<HrdwrBoB> I'll tell him
<ajmitch> thanks
<Keybuk> he can e-mail me at scott@ubuntu.com and I'll follow it up in the morning
<robertj> Has there been any discussion about having gksu reask on a bad password?
<Keybuk> I suspect it's just the "failed to update initramfs properly" bug
<Keybuk> given he particularly mentions "current updates"
<robertj> I've filed it upstream & noone has looked at it
<Keybuk> ajmitch: heh, it's amazing just how many people really think that if something goes wrong then it's our fault for not testing it properly
<Keybuk> and obviously, that everyone in the world must have the same problem
<ajmitch> and obviously we're incompetent because of that
<Keybuk> obviously
* robertj gives Keybuk a cookie
* bddebian is incompetent
<zul> wohoo... 2-2
<jdub> http://www.x64bit.net/site/board/index.php?act=ST&f=73&t=2386&st=0#entry21462
<bddebian> zul: What's that my upload to build failure ratio for lyx? :-)
<jdub> ^ 'gnome-screensaver' ... ?! wonder how they managed that
<zul> bddebian: nope..im watching th hockey game
<bddebian> Ah :-)
<Keybuk> hmm, my boyfriend is doing one of those "Come up with one word to describe each other" games ... and just described me as "Special"
<Keybuk> I'm sure he meant well, but I *cannot* get the image of elmo thumping his chest and saying "spethial" out of my mind
<Keybuk> :p
<lifeless> hahah
<Keybuk> elmo is responsible for so much
<zul> wohoo..3-2
<defendguin> jdong: i am having the same scaling problem with the core duo process as you were where did you get a ubuntu package for powernowd? 
<defendguin> s/process/processor
<jdong> defendguin: I hacked together my own from upstream tar.gz and current ubuntu diff.gz
<jdong> it was on a livecd, btw... I don't actually own a core duo yet
<coz_> Ok shortened the process by installing on only three machines and here are the results     http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/HKuTYA25.html
<defendguin> you dont happen to know when 0.97 is going to make it into dapper?
<crimsun> coz_: he went to bed. e-mail him at scott@ubuntu.com
<coz_> crimsun, I can wait til tomorow
<HrdwrBoB> yeah it's the mkinitramfs problem
<HrdwrBoB> OFFS
<HrdwrBoB> no, not interested in hearing how to fix it.
<robertj> wowzers... deb http://oss.oracle.com/debian unstable main non-free
<jdong> defendguin: I don't know if it's going to be. Keep an eye on the LP bug report on the issue; I hope a UVF is granted for it
<defendguin> jdong: who gets to grant one for it?
<jdong> defendguin: one of the big powers around here... not me :)
<defendguin> jdong: big powers?
<jdong> defendguin: like mdz
<defendguin> this issue is going to be effecting a lot of new laptops and without it its gonna be sapping battery life
<tseng> Mithrandir: are you in charge of "resolution on livecd is way off"
<tseng> Mithrandir: i didnt even know my monitor could do this, 1024x768 centered in 'native' 1680x1050 boxed out
<HrdwrBoB> defendguin: affecting
<defendguin> HrdwrBoB: bug 30984
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 30984 in powernowd "(Dapper) kernel 2.6.15.15-686 breaks freq scaling on core duo" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/30984
<HrdwrBoB> yeah, I just meant it's affect not effect
<HrdwrBoB> but, nm
<defendguin> ??
<klepas> >seen sabdfl
<klepas> mhh
<klepas> :(
<bddebian> Should we close main bugs already assigned to someone?
<jmg> ogra_ibook: ping
<jmg> anyone run ubuntu on a macbok pro?
<Burgundavia> jmg: mjg59 does
<Burgundavia> jmg: however, it needs hacking to get it working, unless you use bootcamp
<jmg> Burgundavia: any url to the hacking? we cant even make it boot with bootcamp.
<Burgundavia> jmg: I haven't seen anything, sorry
<jmg> Burgundavia: thx
<robitaille> ping jdub 
<pitti> Good morning
<ajmitch> morning pitti 
<klepas> moin
<ajmitch> hey dholbach 
<dholbach> good morning
<sivang> morning everybody
<dholbach> who can all delete packages from the archive (apart from Kamion)? Is it the ubuntu-archive team?
<infinity> dholbach: In theory, a number of us have access to do so, in practice, only Kamion's been doing archive cruft cleanup so far.
<infinity> dholbach: I wouldn't have any issues with doing it myself, but I'd probably ask him for a 20 second run-down of "how not to disrupt Kamion's workflow" before I start breaking things.
<dholbach> infinity: Yeah, I understand. I'm going to file a bug, and assign to ubuntu-archive - maybe Kamion then decides to teach all members of the team beforehand or do it himself. :-)
<infinity> :)
<dholbach> It's just that I remembered that somebody from last time's AptGetOrg run would have liked to get his packages removed and I'd like to do that.
<Mithrandir> tseng: if you could attach the output of ddcprobe, your xorg.log and your xorg.conf to the bug report I might be able to tell you if it's the same bug or not, at least
<jdub> robitaille: pong
<robitaille> jdub:  could you put me back on planet.u.c?  It seems the feed is from for my blog...according to the feed link on the right-hand side of the page.  thanks.
<robitaille> it seems the feed link was changed to some sort of "maintenance.html" link
<jdub> robitaille: oh, that'd be blogspot breaking or something
<jdub> robitaille: do you have a feedburner thingy?
<robitaille> no.  you think it work better?
<jdub> yeah
<jdub> blogspot seems to give the finger to regular aggregators
<jdub> it's really annoying :(
<robitaille> ok.  Give me a second.  I have a feedburner account..or used to.  I'll dig it up and link to it
<jdub> rock, ta
<robitaille> jdub:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/robitaille
<jdub> robitaille: *fixing*
<highvoltage> ubuntu dapper beta sounds like one of those fraternaties in the american movies.
<jdub> robitaille: oh, feedburner is atom now
<robitaille> isn't supposed to be in alphabetic order?   beta-dapper-ubuntu?  b-d-u
<robitaille> jdub:  maybe that's just the default? since blogspot is atom to start with.
<robitaille> I'm sure there must be an option somewhere to put it in rss2 mode
<robitaille> let me look
<jdub> robitaille: is ok, i'll upgrade planet :)
<robitaille> I found it.  so should I switch to rss2?
<jdub> naw, no problem
<robitaille> ok.
<robitaille> jdub:  according to feeedburner, they serve the feeds using their SmartFeed(tm) technology that "Translates your feed on-the-fly into a format (RSS or Atom) compatible with your visitors' feed reader application".  So they claim planet.u.c is asking for atom :)
<jdub> oh
<jdub> i tried with my browser
<jdub> i don't know what planet would get
<jdub> i guess i should try :)
<lifeless> robitaille: the sound like they are on crack.
<lifeless> robitaille: what Vary: headers do they emit ?
<Mithrandir> jdub: ACCEPT_HEADER = "application/atom+xml,application/rdf+xml,application/rss+xml,application/x-netcdf,application/xml;q=0.9,text/xml;q=0.2,*/*;q=0.1"
<Mithrandir> is the default
<robitaille> lifeless:  yes it seems they varies the feeds on the fly...at least according to their marketing-speak.    
<lifeless> robitaille: yes, but do they emit a valid vary: header
<pitti> mh21: moin moin Mischa
<mh21> pitti: goedemorgen
<robitaille> lifeless:  don't think so.  I'm guessing they look at the user-agent of the apps looking at the feed, and adjust accordingly the format.  Using firefox, it shows up as an atom feed that happens to be human readable according to the source.
<lifeless> robitaille: if they don't emit a vary header, they are breaking rfc 2616 
<lifeless> which would not surprise me
<jdub> lifeless: a basic HEAD doesn't give me a vary header
<lifeless> does it give cache-control ?
<jdub> HEAD /robitaille HTTP/1.1
<jdub> Host: feeds.feedburner.com
<jdub> HTTP/1.1 200 OK
<jdub> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 07:03:47 GMT
<jdub> Server: Apache/2.0.54 (Debian GNU/Linux) mod_jk/1.2.15
<jdub> Last-Modified: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 07:01:16 GMT
<jdub> ETag: 1FwyXFdKLC001TWyzVczUpnAhCU
<jdub> Content-Length: 15815
<jdub> Content-Type: text/xml;charset=utf-8
<jdub> 
<lifeless> hmm, scary they have an etag in there, I wonder if they regenerate it for each feed style
<lifeless> and yes, definately rfc2616 bustified
<lifeless> thats a cachable response, which means different clients sharing a cache will get the same content 
<Mithrandir> lifeless: Apache adds it by default unless they're just generating all their own headers.
<lifeless> Mithrandir: I know.
<lifeless> Mithrandir: and it can get it wrong because of that (I've seen some -nasty- stuff)
<jamesh> Mithrandir: that etag doesn't look like one Apache would generate for static content
<G0SUB_> jdub: can you kindly create a mailing list for ebuntu? It has been months since I requested
<nomed> hi all
<Mithrandir> jamesh: true dat
<jamesh> Mithrandir: the static content etags from apache are made up of 3 dash separated hex strings
<jamesh> size, mtime and inode, iirc
<nomed> ogra_ibook: ping
<nomed> one question .. does edubuntu autologin ?
<jamesh> also, the etag is meant to be in quotes ...
<jdub> G0SUB_: i should've replied again to check - you didn't give me an answer re: ebuntu-devel vs. ebuntu-users
<nomed> i mean  the livecd ...
<G0SUB_> jdub: kindly make one ebuntu-users for the time being
<lifeless> anyway, feedburner seem rather useless for content negotiation compliance
<jdub> G0SUB_: i also asked if you could confirm this with the CC, due to the similar name with edubuntu
<jdub> G0SUB_: was that sorted?
<jamesh> lifeless: maybe they assume that the feeds are accessed infrequently enough that they won't get cached
<G0SUB_> jdub: I never got any mail from you wrt this issue
<jamesh> lifeless: or that the format conversion isn't actually necessary, so it doesn't matter ...
<jdub> G0SUB_: it was the same mail
<G0SUB_> jdub: same as in?
<lifeless> jamesh: its nonconformat any which way
<jdub> G0SUB_: same as the users/devel q
<G0SUB_> jdub: i didn't even get that mail
<G0SUB_> jdub: else I would have replied quickly
<jdub> G0SUB_: if you could bring it up with the CC, that'd be helpful - i don't want to cause confusion between the subprojects
<G0SUB_> jdub: that's true. fine
<G0SUB_> jdub: can you kindly resend the mail to me? it seems I never got it
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: I have some a11y bugfixes for you, do you have any casper changes that you need to commit before I merge/update my tree here?
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: I pushed something on friday, iirc.  You might want to merge those if you haven't.
<TheMuso> Yeah doing so.
<Lathiat> does ubiquity/espresso support ntfs resizing?
<Burgundavia> Lathiat: as it uses partman, I assume so
<G0SUB_> jdub: anyway, thanks for letting me know. I will get the issue solved
<TheMuso> ...or not. Just found something else that needs attention. Will ping you when it is all ready to fetch.
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: BTW, is there supposed to be /target in 22gnome_panel_data or /root?
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: /root.
<TheMuso> hmm. Right. You want me to fix that?
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: I'll fix it myself, but thanks for noticing
<TheMuso> Ok fine by me.
<TheMuso> I won't be ready to push for a little while now, so np.
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: fixed, pushed.
<TheMuso> Ok thanks.
<pitti> wb mh21
<Mithrandir> ogra_ibook: does edubuntu have gdm-cdd.conf as an alternative?
<nomed> that's what i really would figure out me too ...
<nomed> Mithrandir: in case you know something more about this could you ping me ?
<nomed> there is an issue in xubuntu about this .. it seems it doesn't use|find  that file
<pitti> sivang: ping
<mdke> morning all
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: Are you aware thata the /etc/hosts file in casper is formatted differently to the /etc/hosts file found on installed systems. If so, is this for a good reason?
<pitti> hi mdke 
<Mithrandir> nomed: yes, I know what the issue is, but janimo isn't around atm.
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: it's not on purpose, no
<sivang> pitti: pong
<pitti> sivang: backuppc is yours, right?
<sivang> pitti: hrm, no :)
<sivang> pitti: why?
<pitti> sivang: ok, nevermind then
<nomed> Mithrandir: what i know is that gdm-cdd.conf --> in alternatives --> etc/xdg/xubuntu/gdm-cdd.conf
<nomed> if i'm not wrong
<nomed> the file is in xubuntu-default-settings ...
<Mithrandir> nomed: it's a violation of a "should" in Debian policy.
<Mithrandir>      In general, symbolic links within a top-level directory should be
<Mithrandir>      relative, and symbolic links pointing from one top-level directory
<Mithrandir>      into another should be absolute.  (A top-level directory is a
<Mithrandir>      sub-directory of the root directory `/'.)
<sivang> pitti: it's in perl last time I checked :)
<sivang> *Was
<pitti> sivang: I just wanted to discuss a proposal from Nafallo, but I mixed that up with HUB as it seems
<doko> pitti: looks like we do have lot of printing fun with cups 1.2 ...
<sivang> pitti: proposal about backups?
<pitti> doko: oh, many new bug reports?
<pitti> doko: I didn't yet find time to read bugs today
<doko> pitti: please do, looks like network printing doesn't work anymore, and some config files are lost across upgrades
<doko> I'm wading through the list for problems with specific printers
<pitti> yes, of course I will deal with them, I just need to catch up with some security updates
<j^> System->Printers | Right Click -> Properties => hangs, is a good one
<Treenaks> j^: doesn't hang
<Treenaks> j^: just takes ages
<Treenaks> (at least, for me, using a JetDirect printer)
<j^> Treenaks hang as in gui not responding, no repaint
<j^> possible that it works after more than 2 minutes... 
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: I ask because it was pointed out to me that one of the accessibility profiles wasn't working due to the way gnopernicus communicates with festival. Festival has an access list, and is set up to allow connections from the various forms of localhost, such as localhost.localdomain, 127.0.0.1, and localhost. However, it doesn't seem to like all these forms of localhost, as well as the ubuntu hostname all on one line in /etc/hosts. In ord
<Treenaks> j^: yes. but that's only for a minute or so, then it starts responding again, and the properties window appears
<j^> Treenaks still a bug
<Treenaks> j^: true
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: ".. in ord" ?
<TheMuso> And the problem with modifying its config, is that it would need to possibly be fixed up again once installed.
<TheMuso> In order to work properly, festival needs the first line of /etc/hosts to be all the localhost variants, with the second line with the ubuntu hostname. Is this feesable? I currently don't know how else to fix this, other than patching/modifying festival's config on live CD boot, baring in mind it may need to be changed again once Festival is installed.
<infinity> TheMuso: Are you sure of this?  That seems broken to me.
<TheMuso> infinity: What seems broken?
<Treenaks> sounds like a bug in festival
<infinity> TheMuso: That festival refuses to allow you to have anything else on line 1 of /etc/hosts.
<neuralis> TheMuso: why does festival care? it shouldn't be parsing /etc/hosts.
<TheMuso> neuralis: Festival runs as a server, and uses a TCP port for communication, so it has an access list to allow/deny connections to it.
<infinity> TheMuso: I originally patched festival to allow access from localhost (and variants), but it shouldn't care if you ALSO have other things there...
* infinity ponders.
<TheMuso> infinity: I know. But on the live CD at least, it doesn't seem to work.
<infinity> TheMuso: Do you have a livecd booted?
<neuralis> themuso: so? it should be using gethostbyname, which works fine with multiple entries in the first line.
<TheMuso> Indeed I do.
<TheMuso> I have modified /etc/hosts however.
<infinity> TheMuso: What does "host 127.0.0.1" return?
<infinity> Oh.
<TheMuso> I'll reboot.
<infinity> Well, unmodify it. :)
<TheMuso> Hold on.
<Mithrandir> host localhost => "localhost has address 127.0.0.1"
<Mithrandir> host 127.0.0.1 => "1.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer localhost."
<infinity> Mithrandir: and the inverse?
<infinity> Kay, then there's no reason festival should screw up on that, unless it's doing something very dumb.
<TheMuso> infinity: Almost finished booting. I will run the gnome-speech festival driver in a terminal, and I will tell you what it says.
<infinity> Note that this variable holds a regular expression which is matched
<infinity> against whatever the client's IP address resolves to (or the address
<infinity> itself, if address-to-name resolution fails). For local connections,
<infinity> that is the first name in the '127.0.0.1' line of /etc/hosts; it may or
<infinity> may not be 'localhost'.
<infinity> (docs on server_access_list in festival)
<TheMuso> Yeah I saw that.
<infinity> Which sounds like it's just using a standard libc reverse lookup.
<TheMuso> Note that this live CD I am using is not the latest daily.
<Mithrandir> can't we just unset that and make it just listen to localhost?
<infinity> Mithrandir: As in, make it allow from "any", but only bind to "lo"?
<TheMuso> The festival server says: Rejected from ubuntu not in access list
<Mithrandir> infinity: yes
<TheMuso> That is when running festival-synthesis-driver in a terminal, and then running gnopernicus from the run dialog.
<infinity> Mithrandir: If you want to fix it to work that way, go nuts.  I just took the path of least resistance when this bug came accross my desk, and it Worked For Me.
<infinity> TheMuso: And the output of "host 127.0.0.1"?
<TheMuso> 1.0.0.1271.0.0.127.in-addr.arpa domain name pointer localhost.
<Mithrandir> I'm wondering if it's "localhost" vs "localhost."
<infinity> Well, it is, specifically, claiming to be getting a connection from "ubuntu"...
<infinity> Which is just plain wrong, no matter how you slice it.
<Mithrandir> first name on the 127.1 line in /etc/hosts _is_ ubuntu, though
<infinity> Err, it is?
<infinity> It should be the LAST name.
<TheMuso> Yeah it is.
<infinity> It is on the installed system.
<Mithrandir> actually, for the installed system it seems to be 127.0.0.1       localhost
<Mithrandir> 127.0.1.1       ravel.hpc2n.umu.se.hpc2n.umu.se ravel.hpc2n.umu.se
<Mithrandir> (this machine was installed with flight-5, iirc)
<infinity> Oh, cool.  We switched to the "use another loopback address" method.
<infinity> I do prefer that one.  Much cleaner.
<infinity> We could do that on the livecd as well, and I wouldn't complain.
<infinity> RFCs do seem to claim that 127.0.0.1 should only ever resolve to "localhost" afterall, though no one ever seems to follow that.
<Mithrandir> I would just like to not change this every second month.
<infinity> I say "do what d-i does".
<Mithrandir> cat > /root/etc/hosts <<EOF
<Mithrandir> 127.0.0.1 localhost
<Mithrandir> 127.0.1.1 ubuntu
<Mithrandir> (etc)
<Mithrandir> happy?
<infinity> That looks lovely.
<infinity> And should make festival happier.
<TheMuso> Thanks guys. Much appreciated.
<infinity> And some RFC nuts.
<infinity> (The same RFC nuts we upset by using "localhost.localdomain" for a while)
<infinity> Thankfully, we killed that one.
<janimo> pitti, hi
<pitti> hi janimo 
<janimo> indeed as I learned lately minicmd is obsoleted
<janimo> so no need for it in main
<pitti> ok, cool
<janimo> sorry, should have removed it from the wiki
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: committed, pushed
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: Thanks.
<pitti> janimo: I moved it to the obsolete queue, thanks
<Mithrandir> janimo: hiya, why do you manage /etc/gdm/gdm-cdd.conf with the alternatives system?
<pitti> janimo: ah, the xubuntu i386 live just finished downloading - I wanna see it myself, I'm curious :)
<janimo> pitti, cool :)
<janimo> it does not autologin
<janimo> user ubuntu, no password
<janimo> a bug we have to figure out
<janimo> Mithrandir: yep
<janimo> it works in the installed system
<nomed> janimo: see Mithrandir :)
<pitti> Riddell: hm, do you still want both wlassistant and knetworkmanager in main?
<janimo> also on the liveCD the theme is taken from that file
<Mithrandir> janimo: "yep" is not a very good answer to a "why" question. :-P
<janimo> Mithrandir: oh ._why_ do we manage that with it
<janimo> just read it again ;)
<janimo> well that's how we did it at the beginning whe edubuntu did it too
<Mithrandir> janimo: I know why it doesn't work on the live cd, but I want to know the reason for you doing it that way before I go about fixing it.
<janimo> is that no longer te case for edunbntu
<Mithrandir> no idea, ogra_ibook hasn't graced me with an answer yet.
<janimo> both edu and xubuntu provide that file
<janimo> and any other derivative couldin the future to override gdm.conf
<janimo> if you have ant cleaner method I am fine with it
<Mithrandir> "conflicts"? :-)
<Mithrandir> I somehow doubt edubuntu uses alternatives for it since the live cd works for them.
<joelbryan> hi, is there a wiki page about supported files like zip, rar, mpg, avi, wmv, etc??
<joelbryan> in fresh dapper install?
<nomed> it seems edubuntu installs it in etc/gdm 
<janimo> Mithrandir: I'll have to check edubuntu out then
<Kamion> Lathiat: to correct Burgundavia slightly, while we do use partman for some things, we don't use it for resizing (gparted/qtparted, depending on your frontend, is responsible for that)
<Kamion> Lathiat: happily, gparted supports calling out to ntfsresize
<janimo> Mithrandir, hmm Conflicts could do, if we think there will be no other packages providing that
<mvo> Kinnison: the current unstable g-p-m has a dbus command to stop it from going to inactive sleep  (for the use-cache see #40697). do you think it's worth backporting it?
<janimo> nomed, edubuntu uses no alternative then?
<Mithrandir> janimo: if provide a virtual package, say, gdm-custom-config and provide/conflict/replace it.
<nomed> i guess i got what's the problem
<Mithrandir> janimo: get edubuntu-artwork or whatever to do the same.
<janimo> Mithrandir: ok sounds cleaner
<nomed> it the test -f stuff true ?
<mvo> Kamion: what can we do about #40829? IIRC the language-chooser in d-i had a similar problem in the past
<mvo> bug 40829
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40829 in language-selector "kurds are not turk" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40829
<nomed> janimo: edubuntu doesn't use alternatives ...
<Mithrandir> nomed: I know why it happens, that's not a problem.
<janimo> Mithrandir: btw what is the problem?
<janimo> nomed, that is sneaky, ogra did not tell me he dropped alternatives :)
<Mithrandir> janimo: -f follows symlinks, you have an absolute symlink where you should have had a relative one.
<Mithrandir> janimo: since the -f call is not chrooted.
<Kamion> Riddell: please fix your ubiquity working copy and dpkg-source flags as I asked yesterday, or else let me do ubiquity uploads; the spurious diffs are getting annoying
<Kamion> Riddell: also if you'd let me review that change first I could have had an opportunity to fix its error checking
<janimo> Mithrandir: thanks. I couldn't have figured that out
<janimo> but I'll drop alternatives then, and talk to ogra to use conflicts
<Kamion> Riddell: and your bzr committer ids have gone back to "Ubuntu LiveCD user <ubuntu@ubuntu>"
<Kamion> mvo: dunno, it's ku_TR, but d-i's localechooser just refers to it as Kurdish or Kurd
<Mithrandir> janimo: 'k, care to close 40767 when you've done that?
<janimo> Mithrandir: sure
<kagou> i need help to create a patch for apache2-common. Is there anyone who have time to help me ?!
<janimo> Mithrandir: out of curiosity does using squashfs vs having the image non-compressed require more RAM at runtime?
<Mithrandir> janimo: I'd think not, at least not much, why?
<Mithrandir> janimo: it makes pulling the image off the cd much quicker, at least
<janimo> just curious, I was wondering if xubuntu live would need less ram if it was not compressed
<janimo> since the live is under 400M
<Mithrandir> janimo: your usplash progress bar seems broken, at least on the live cd?
<janimo> Mithrandir: no idea why. It may be the usplash I uploaded yesterday
<janimo> is the beta live CD usplash you're seeing?
<janimo> or latest
<Mithrandir> no, current from this morning
<janimo> works here on an installed system
<janimo> and how is it broken?
<Mithrandir> it never progresses.
<janimo> the only things I saw broken was when usplash stops and only text scorlls
<Mithrandir> stays all dark blue.
<janimo> ah, I never saw that
<infinity> Got the index wrong?
<janimo> couldbe that yesterdays usplash (uses new colours) ingterferes with it
<janimo> I'll check it out too
<nomed> janimo: did that guy send the palette too ?
<janimo> nomed, hmm he pointed me to the usplash image on the wiki
<janimo> nothing more.
<nomed> janimo: i check if i can easly extract the palette with gimp
<janimo> nomed: thanks
<nomed> if not it means there is something wrong
<nomed> link ?
<nomed> janimo: then ...
<nomed> could you take a look on xfce-mcs-manager ?
<nomed> the panel .. it's driving me crazy
<nomed> i removed all the icons it's using
<nomed> and they are still there :/
<nomed> i guess we should make it themeable
<nomed> as the icons are almost ready (it seems)
<janimo> nomed: ->xubuntu
<dholbach> Kamion: I'd like to get tkklasse-{doc,server,client} (and their binary packages, which have the same names) removed from the archive - shall I file a bug for that and subscribe ubuntu-archive? is that ok for you?
<nomed> janimo: dhooo
<nomed> janimo: he just resized the original image .. 
<nomed> the circle it's not a circle anymore ..
<janimo> nomed -> #xubuntu :)
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: I'm planning an casper upload soonish so if you have fixes for me, tell me.
<doko> janimo: openoffice.org-gtk is in the archive
<doko> infinity, Keybuk, Kamion: please process the NEW libglib-java binary, so cairo-java can build
<janimo> doko, already in the xubuntu seed ;)
<janimo> thanks
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: Ok. I may be longer here than I first thought. Just gtting my head around some interesting parts of gconf. :)
<TheMuso> And having to adjust some of the file to suit.
<TheMuso> And I still need to test my changes.
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: was that "I think I have a fix in two hours" or was it "don't wait for me, I'll catch the next upload"?
<infinity> doko: main or universe?
<TheMuso> That was a don't wait.
<Kamion> dholbach: yes
<Kamion> dholbach: (give a reason in the bug report, obviously)
<Kamion> doko: hadn't got round to NEW processing this morning
<infinity> Right, source is in universe, the binaries are going there too.
<doko> infinity, Kamion: universe. yeah, I like the "get a series of depending packages through NEW" game ;-)
<dholbach> Kamion: ok, merci.
<Kamion> doko: please fix its /usr/share/doc/ directory
<infinity> Kamion: I'm on it.
<Kamion> drwxr-xr-x root/root         0 2006-04-23 21:39:21 ./usr/share/doc/glib-java-0.2.4/
<Kamion> infinity: ok
<infinity> Or, I'm not, if you're already reading it. :)
<Kamion> infinity: no, go ahead
<Kamion> doko needs to fix the above, but it can be processed first if he promises to do it :)
* infinity laughs.
<doko> Kamion: promised ;-)
* infinity tosses it in universe.
<infinity> And now to accept it with 59 seconds to go before the publisher run.
<infinity> doko: There you go.
<Kamion> publisher run is at :03 ...
<infinity> Yes, and it was :02:01 when I typed that. :)
<Kamion> oh, heh, my IRC client said 11:01 so I guess one of us is a bit off
<Diziet> infinity: m-f-l-all build-dep> Damn, I see I edited control.template but didn't regenerate control.
<janimo> dholbach: is you or seb the one who's more likely to look at bug #40122
<janimo> ?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40122 in goffice "Patch: build 2 libgoffice variants (gnome and gtk)" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40122
<Diziet> infinity: Thanks for cleaning it up for me.
<dholbach> janimo: I set it on my (growing) TODO list. :)
<janimo> dholbach: thanks :)
<_ion>   * Brown paper bag fix: add a missing semicolon in the build-udebs rule.
<_ion> What's the meaning of the phrase "brown paper bag"?
<Mithrandir> _ion: it's a bug which makes you want to put a brown paper bag over your head, or disappear
<pitti> _ion: a bug one is ashamed of
<jono> hi all
<_ion> Hehe, ok.
<jono> who looks after the artwork in ubuntu?
<dholbach> Kamion: thanks for the UVF exception.
<dholbach> jono: Which part of it do you mean?
<jono> dholbach, I need the default wallpaper without the beta text so I can screenshot the official book
<jono> can someone mail me it?
<dholbach> jono: what's your mail address?
<jono> dholbach, jono AT jonobacon DOT org
<ogra> Mithrandir, janimo, whats the problem ? 
<janimo> ogra, xubunt live does not autologin in gdm
<janimo> I still used the alternatives method for gdm-conf
<ogra> dont you use the gdm-cdd.conf ? 
<janimo> yes, but using upfdate-alternatives as it initially was
<janimo> I see you changes edubuntu to directly copy it to etc/gdm
<janimo> now I do that too
<ogra> changed ? 
<ogra> edubuntu never had the alternative 
<janimo> did not edubuntu use alternatives for that?
<ogra> not yet
<janimo> well it does not have to at all
<ogra> that was a quick and dirty addition short before a flight release iirc, i'd likle to have an alternative as we initially wanted
<janimo> alternatives are bad as just seen on xubuntu live
<janimo> Tollef suggested we both add that file 
<Mithrandir> janimo: that's possible to work around.
<janimo> and conflict on each other's package
<Mithrandir> ogra: why do you want to use alternatives?
<janimo> Mithrandir: you said I'd do conflict, alreday done that ;)
<janimo> ogra, I added this to xubuntu-deafult-settings  Provides: and Conflicts: on gdm-config-derivative
<ogra> Mithrandir, i want to ship xubuntu as a low footprint alternative for ltsp atr some point
<ogra> so they cant conflict 
<Mithrandir> hmm
<ogra> i'm happy about every other suggestion, but conflicts dont work, many people already use xubuntu on their edubuntu systems
<Mithrandir> it's just the artwork, though.
<ogra> yes, we should teach gdm to accept a theme without having to replace the whole config :
<Mithrandir> hmm, seb's not around.
<Mithrandir> dholbach: around?
<janimo> ogra, jbailey had some plans of making the gdm.conf file use layered cfg files
<janimo> but dunno what came out of that
<dholbach> Mithrandir: yes.
<janimo> than you could just have a file in addition not instead of gdmconf
<janimo> a lot nicer imho
<Mithrandir> dholbach: what do you think of the idea of having gdm.conf-cdd just be an override, so anything not set in gdm.conf-cdd will get picked up from gdm.conf (and then fallback)?
<Mithrandir> actually, some sort of /etc/gdm/gdm.conf.d where each is put on top of the previous one.
<janimo> Mithrandir: needs gdm hacaking
<dholbach> Mithrandir: It sounds like a good idea to me, but if you don't mind I'd mail seb about his opinion before (as he wanted to do the gdm 2.14.2 update as well).
<Mithrandir> dholbach: go ahead.
<dholbach> Mithrandir: He's more intimate with gdm than I am.
<Mithrandir> janimo: nope.  It needs a tool to merge gdm configurations.
<Mithrandir> (which could be a generic tool, since the gdm.conf file format is an .ini file format.
<Mithrandir> )
<janimo> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gdm-list/2006-March/msg00019.html
<janimo> ah ok.
<ogra> Mithrandir, thats eft material
<ogra> i already discussed the gdm stuff with seb
<dholbach> It sounds like that to me too.
<ogra> gdm-cdd.conf is an interim solution until gdm is capable to handle that batter
<ogra> *better
<Mithrandir> hmm
<Mithrandir> I could probably whip up a tool to do this quite quickly.
<ogra> a wrapper ? 
<Mithrandir> import ConfigParser, sys
<Mithrandir> f = open("/etc/gdm/factory-gdm.conf", "r")
<Mithrandir> c.readfp(f)
<Mithrandir> c.read(sys.argv[1:] )
<Mithrandir> c.write(sys.stdout)
<Mithrandir> called with /etc/gdm/gdm.conf /etc/gdm/conf.d/*.conf or something along that.
<Mithrandir> and then writing to /var/lib/gdm/gdm.conf which gdm gets taught to use if available.
<sivang> has anyone seen sladen?
<Riddell> sivang: he's skipped the country, remind me to phone the hosts again in half an hour to the them to press the on switch
<mjg59> Given a binary, is there any way to change the names of the symbols within it?
<sivang> Riddell: sure :)
<dholbach> Mithrandir: I included your proposal and sent it to Sb.
<Mithrandir> dholbach: thanks.  He responds even though he's on vac?
<dholbach> Mithrandir: He looked at some bugs some minutes ago, so I daresay yes.
<Mithrandir> dholbach: heh. :-)
<dholbach> If he doesn't stop triaging bugs on vac, I'll rent a car and visit his place to make sure he's doing proper vacation. :)
<Mithrandir> just take all his machines
<dholbach> Mithrandir: good thinking.
<ogra> hum, kmplayer in main ? doesnt that depend on mplayer ? 
<Riddell> yay!
<Riddell> ogra: no, it uses xine
<ogra> heh, why isnt it called kdexine then :)
<ogra> (i just looked at the deps)
<Kamion> huh? kmplayer is in universe
<Riddell> ogra: mplayer backend was the first it had, but we don't build it
<Riddell> Kamion: it's just got main inclusion approval
<ogra> Kamion, it just was approved
<Kamion> ah, I wish people would say that clearly
<Kamion> rather than e.g. giving archive admins heartattacks
<Riddell> ogra: stop killing Kamion, we need him
<ogra> Kamion, i trust pitti, didnt know you'd jump on it directly ... just was curious why it got approved
<pitti> I was quite afraid of the name 'kmplayer' too :)
<pitti> but it really just uses gstreamer and our main libxine
<Kamion> ogra: I didn't jump on it directly
<Riddell> Kamion: kde ubiquity has a broken include line in it, can I upload a fix?
<Kamion> Riddell: no, please send me a diff, I have stuff pending
<Kamion> s/diff/branch/
<Riddell> Kamion: it's in my branch ready for merging
<Kamion> and we need to slow down the uploads for a while
<Riddell> yeah, I just want something I can recommend beta testers to upgrade to
<Kamion> well, I'd like to arrive there by something that's tested before upload ;-)
<Kamion> and I want to sort out partitioning errors properly
<Kamion> Riddell: you don't do partman progress in the install progress bar yet, do you? (by my reading of kde-ui)
<Riddell> Kamion: I think I do
<Kamion> bzr: ERROR: Revision {jriddell@ubuntu.com-20060424105053-22abf4d6794faebf} not present in 39/changelog-20051205083553-77a1825ffd84cf56.
<seb128> Mithrandir: ping?
<Mithrandir> seb128: pong
<Kamion> Riddell: I'm struggling to see where - neither confirm_partitioning_dialog nor error_dialog have any handling for it; can you point me to the code responsible.
<Kamion> ?
<seb128> Mithrandir: dholbach pinged me about some gdm changes you want to do
<seb128> Mithrandir: want to do that for dapper?
<Mithrandir> seb128: it'd be nice, yes.
<seb128> Mithrandir: you read the mail that jbailey sent upstream?
<Mithrandir> seb128: yes, but I was pondering doing this without touching gdm code for dapper at least.
<Kamion> Riddell: (having to fetch your branch from scratch because bzr doesn't recover well from pull errors; will be a while)
<seb128> you want to edit some conffiles, doesn't look a good idea to me
<janimo> mjg59: objcopy has some operations to change symbol names but not sure how flexible
<janimo> eg --prefix-symbol
<HiddenWolf> seb128: I'm experiencing a bug with your rhythmbox 0.9.4 package, should I file it?
<Mithrandir> seb128: nope, I was thinkig teaching gdm to look for /var/lib/gdm/gdm.conf and use that if it exists.  That file will be created with a python script similar to:
<Mithrandir> import ConfigParser, sys
<seb128> Mithrandir: upstream gdm already does have user config overwritting system config, adding an another file between both should be easy
<Mithrandir> f = open("/etc/gdm/factory-gdm.conf", "r")
<Mithrandir> c.readfp(f)
<Mithrandir> c.read(["/etc/gdm/gdm.conf", "/etc/gdm/gdm.conf-custom", "/etc/gdm/conf.d/*"] )
<seb128> HiddenWolf: upstream
<Mithrandir> c.write(sys.stdout)
<janimo> Mithrandir: for edu/xubuntu gdm is alreday passed --config 
<janimo> that could be used
<seb128> Mithrandir: why not teaching him than /usr/share/gdm/cdd.conf keys overwritte default settings by example?
<Riddell> Kamion: we have a progress bar after the autopartitioning page, but are you talking about the logic that delays the partitioning to the summary page?
<janimo> seb128, gdm already does that for gdm.custom right?
<Mithrandir> seb128: because it'd be nicest for casper if I could just drop my settings in a file which I knew would be read last and thereby not having to do the hacks I do.
<Kamion> Riddell: the latter, yes
<seb128> upstream atm uses /usr/share/gdm/default.conf for default value (that we still move to /etc/gdm/gdm.conf to avoid breaking upgrades atm) and overwritte with user config which is /etc/default/gdm.custom-conf
<Riddell> Kamion: yeah, I've not done that yet, thanks for the pointers to the relevant places
<Mithrandir> seb128: as a nice bonus, we would be able to remove distro defaults from /etc/gdm completely.
<seb128> Mithrandir: that's what the custom conf is, not a complete definition but just some key to overwritte
<Riddell> Kamion: when you have a moment could you promote kmplayer source and kmplayer-base & kmplayer-konq-plugins binary packages to main?
<seb128> Mithrandir: upstream move distro default to /usr/share/gdm
<Mithrandir> seb128: but we don't?
<seb128> Mithrandir: we still use /etc because I don't know what to do with modifed configs used atm
<seb128> no
<seb128> gdmsetup used to edt /etc/gdm/gconf.conf directly
<Mithrandir> move it to -custom if it's modified?
<seb128> before they creates a new custom-conf to edit and move the distro config to /usr
<Mithrandir> mm
<seb128> the issue is that people using dapper already have a -custom written by gdmsetup
<seb128> that's why we want to have the list
<Mithrandir> ok
<Kamion> Riddell: I'll do a batch of main promotion later today
<seb128> /usr/share/gdm/default.conf, then /etc/gdm/gdm.cong (which may have previous user config), then /etc/gdm/gdm.custom-conf
<Kamion> I like to do these things in batches rather than one-at-a-time
<seb128> we could put a gdm.cdd-conf somewhere to the list
<seb128> janimo: right, that's what gdmsetup edits atm
<mvo> Riddell: there seems to be some problems during a upgrade from breezy->dapper. I have a person claming that his kontact adressbook was purged after the upgrade. should I file a bug about it? (the original mail is in german)
<Mithrandir> seb128: I'd like to be able to just drop a gdm.conf fragment in a directory.
<Riddell> mvo: yeah please
<Riddell> mvo: although a local kontact address book would be in ~/.kde so it can't be purged
<mvo> Riddell: yeah, that is what I thought, I'll ask for clarification 
<seb128> Mithrandir: that's what we planned with jbailey
<seb128> Mithrandir: we just need to extend the custom-conf logic to an extra cdd-conf or something
<Riddell> mvo: although nothing stopping kontact from deleteing the address book if it was feeling evil
<Mithrandir> seb128: if I get you the patch today, is there a chance of having it dapperable?
<seb128> Mithrandir: I would really like to be able to move /etc/gdm/gdm.conf to /usr for dapper and having a custom cdd conf yep, that would make things much easier for upgrades by example
<darkmatter> mornin' all
<darkmatter> dapper has a bit of a problem after the lates pango updates
<darkmatter> fonts in gtk+ 2x are broken
<darkmatter> its fine if you don't try to change them... but if you do they revert to sans
<Mithrandir> seb128: do you think upstream would scream if I reversed the direction the files are read in too?  Reading backwards seems slightly wrong.
<darkmatter> the only fonts that even display a preview are sans, serif and monospace
<Riddell> pitti: http://kubuntu.pastebin.com/678581
<Riddell> (not sure if I've already pointed that out to you)
<pitti> Riddell: oh, no, you didn't
<pitti> Riddell: feel free to fix (s/rm/rm -rf should do), otherwise I'll do it when I find some time
<seb128> Mithrandir: I think that should be fine. Did you read upstream reply to jbailey with all the details on how to do what we want? http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gdm-list/2006-March/msg00022.html
<Mithrandir> seb128: yes.
<pitti> Riddell: oh, rather, rmdir || true
<Mithrandir> seb128: it's insane to have a 2.5kLOC C file to read a configuration though, but I guess I'll have to make do with that. :-)
<seb128> Mithrandir: yeah, you have, we are not going to change that :p
<doko> Riddell, pitti: no it should be rm -rf, the package creates these files on installation
<Riddell> doko: and if the user decides to put something else in there?  that'll killan changes
<Riddell> kill any
<doko> Riddell: doesn't cups copy the configured ppd anyway?
<pitti> doko: it does
<doko> darkmatter: works fine for me.
<Kamion> Riddell: KDE convention is to have the OK button on the left, isn't it?
<Kamion> I'm writing a sort-of-generic question_dialog helper for kde-ui to match one I wrote for gtkui, just checking on button ordering
<Riddell> Kamion: yes, but using QMessageBox.question() is the better way to do it
<Kamion> Riddell: I am using QMessageBox.question
<Riddell> ah, cool
<Kamion> Riddell: but it needs to be called from components so I need a shim, and the argument ordering for that shim obviously needs to be one way or the other
<Kamion> thanks
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: did you talk lateky with the xkb plugin dev?
<janimo> lately
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, nop, but I've played with the xklavier lib, we definitely can do something :)
<jcole> how does ubuntu/debian find the latest versions of packages? it it done manually by word of mouth or via automation? i found this, but i don't think it could be useful with all the missing packages and broken watches -> http://dehs.alioth.debian.org/no_watch.html
<janimo> Gloubiboulga: excellent :)
<jcole> also on dw (since they do somekind of automated version tracking), i noticed that some dapper packages are "up to date" while some are behind the "latest" stable and development versions -> http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=ubuntu
<Gloubiboulga> janimo, I'll try to have something that works this week
<jcole> got curious because some guy on slashdot was complaining about gnucash being "behind" in dapper
<azeem> jcole: note that there was an upstream version freeze several months ago
<jcole> azeem: ok
<jcole> azeem: how are versions of packages chosen?
<azeem> jcole: this depends on a couple of things, like what version is in Debian, whether that package is in main or universe etc.
<Kamion> sometimes by watching release notices, sometimes by whatever happens to be in Debian, sometimes by other automation, and all of that modified by what we know about a package (sometimes the latest version isn't the best for one reason or another)
<azeem> it seems dapper ships gnucash-1.8.12, which is the latest stable release
<jcole> Kamion: is a "release notice" automated? or is it manual via word of mouth (from chatting, the net, email, etc.)?
<azeem> jcole: there is a semi-automatic watch system implemented in Debian which scans for new upstream releases at the expected location.  Google for watch files and dehs
<jcole> azeem: i posted this link earlier -> http://dehs.alioth.debian.org/no_upstream.html
<azeem> right
<Kamion> jcole: many projects send out mails to announcement lists
<Kamion> jcole: for the packages we care about, the people responsible generally watch those announcement lists
<jcole> azeem: but it can't be very useful since there are thousands of packages with no or broken watches
<Kamion> jcole: for the packages we don't care about, we generally defer to Debian, in which cases the Debian maintainer generally watches those announcement lists
<azeem> jcole: it's useful for those packages with a good watch file at least
<Kamion> jcole: updating packages is not automatic anyway - it needs a developer who knows about the packages to do the job - so it's usually not a big deal that finding out about the new upstream release isn't automatic either
<jcole> Kamion azeem: thanks for the info
<doko> Kamion: cairo-java_1.0.3-0ubuntu2 did have the same docdir problem as glib-java, fixed in cairo-java_1.0.3-0ubuntu3
<coz_> Ok I will pastebin this here now and later Please read this - http://www.rafb.net/paste/results/paYKVE51.html
<zakame> hi all
<zakame> elmo: ping
<Riddell> pitti: cups 1.2 rc2 plus mh21's patches seem to work well for me
<pitti> Riddell: great!
<Riddell> I'll show the patches to the kdeprint maintainer, who will probably find plenty wrong with them, but we should be good for dapper
<zul> heylo
* ogra wonders to whom we'll have to direct the complaints that kmplayer is in main but mplayer is in multiverse now :)
<Riddell> pitti: I had reports of an error when trying to print saying "Error from CUPS: ok-successful"
<Riddell> pitti: my e-mail archive is broken so I can't get the exact error but does that sound like anything you recognise?
<pitti> Riddell: no, that doesn't tell me anything; the 'Error from CUPS:' is a KDE string or a libcups one?
<pitti> Riddell: it looks like a bogus error message
<Riddell> that'll be a KDE string, the "ok-successful" will be from cups
<pitti> right, ok-successful is libcups
<pitti> not sure, maybe the string changed in 1.2
<Riddell> I've not seen the error myself, it was from people testing your packages on people.u.c
<pitti> does that actually break anything?
<Riddell> no, didn't seem to
<zakame> hmm, whyare my uploadsstill aren't showing up? :(
<Kamion> zakame: can you give me a package name to look up?
<j^> can someone look at bug #40214, i extraced 2 changes from upstream cvs
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40214 in binutils "ld checks for libs in wrong order. it should be inline with ld.so and check configured folders first." [Unknown,Unknown]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40214
<zakame> Kamion: gnome-ppp for one, touched fo DhIconCacheChanges
<Kamion> 15:15:06 DEBUG   Could not find a person for <zakame@ubuntu.com (Zak B. Elep)> or that person has no preferred email address set in launchpad
<Kamion> zakame: you need to set a preferred e-mail address in Launchpad
<zakame> now that's strange, I've had that set for a while, it hasn't bothered my previous uploads until this...
<zakame> I'll update anyway, just to besure
<Kamion> either that or its e-mail address parsing wants "Zak B. Elep <zakame@ubuntu.com>" rather than "zakame@ubuntu.com (Zak B. Elep)" maybe?
<ogra> wasnt there a problem with dots in the names ? iirc crimsun had a simillar probllem once
<ogra> -l
<zakame> hmmm
<zakame> just defaulted to my other address, and uploaded a fix for arson
<Kamion> if so, file an LP bug, /products/qprocd
<zakame> ok, thanks! =)
<ogra> Kamion, iirc that predates LP and was a gpg problem ...
<ogra> but crimsun will know ...
<janimo> Mithrandir: so how should gdm-cdd.conf be provided after all?
<Riddell> pitti: do you have mh21's e-mail address?
<mvo> doko: ping
<doko> mvo: pong
<ogra> janimo, lets wait what of the changes they can get into dapper
<ogra> i'm sure Mithrandir will ping us :)
<janimo> ogra, btw how did edubuntu users who used xfce cope with this gdm.conf issue?
<ogra> not at all
<ogra> they dont need to for ltsp ;) we dont use gdm
<ogra> and ldm just picks the default system XSession
<janimo> oh so you said you prefer not to conflict for the other settings in that package not gdm then?
<ogra> yep
<janimo> I see
<ogra> because it indeed breaks if you use a workstation variant with multiple users 
<janimo> true
<ogra> (where one ises gnome and the other xfce)
<Diziet> (gs-esp upstream)++
<Mithrandir> janimo: either works for me, really.
<ogra> everything that doesnt make the packages conflict works for me either ...
<zakame> hi jsgotangco 
<jsgotangco> yo!
<janimo> Mithrandir: so should I go back to alternatives if ogra needs that?
<jsgotangco> lol blatant-and-awkward now has an emblem
<ogra> (i'm fine with an alternative, but if there are chances fro a cleaner solution, i prefer to wait for Mithrandir )
<janimo> in that case is the fix entirely in casper or did I install the symlink badly too?
<zakame> huh?
* janimo wishes he did not upload latest xubuntu-default-settings at all
<jsgotangco> borked build?
<Mithrandir> janimo: either, really.
<janimo> ok
<ogra> janimo, just tell me if i need to change anything in edubuntu-artwork 
<Lure> ogra: kmplayer is not just frontend for mplayer and it does not depend on mplayer
<ogra> Lure, i know 
<ogra> but most of the users wont
<ogra> its an odd naming imho
<Lure> ogra: kmplayer is needed in main to replace embedded video ofr konqueror (kaffiene crashes)
<ogra> Lure, sure 
<ogra> but it shouldnt be named like that :)
<Kamion> you can always think of it as "KDE Media Player"
<ogra> kmaplyer-xine would be more appropriate for example
<Lure> ogra: persuade authors to rename - it would be even more strange if ubuntu would ship it with different name
<Riddell> renaming it is on the author's todo list
<ogra> ah, cool :)=
<janimo> ogra, look in xubuntu-default-settings 0.8 or wait till 0.10
<janimo> and there are preint/postrm hooks 
<ogra> janimo, will do, thanks
<Riddell> mdke: you send me an e-mail the other day but my e-mail archives are broken, can you resend to jriddell@ubuntu.com
<Kamion> Diziet: what did they do?
<sivang> Riddell: has muse been brought up?
<Diziet> Kamion: I reported a bug to them - a strange and complex thing in the bowels of the colour deskjet driver - and this morning there's an email saying what the code should have done and a sufficient reference to their already-committed fix.
<Amaranth> ogra: would you be mentoring "Gnome Squid proxy configuration utility" for the google soc?
<ogra> nope
<KaiL_> does heise.de now really need to feed their trolls with a message about a bug in dapper BETA? *grr*
<ogra> since i want to push willow
<ogra> i'm a big squid hater
<Amaranth> heh
<Amaranth> it's the only thing in the (small) list of ideas that looks fun
<ogra> (and i dont want it included at all if we can get willow DTRT)
<Amaranth> unless i want to work on KDE :)
<Kamion> KaiL_: how helpful
<Kamion> KaiL_: it's a bad bug, but we don't want to withdraw the beta just for that
<ogra> Amaranth, http://www.digitallumber.com/software/willow/
<ogra> Amaranth, i'd happily mentor any project around that ;)
<KaiL_> Kamion, that's why it is called BETA, or? Because it can have bugs
<Kamion> I'll probably put a note on the releases.u.c website about it at some point
<ogra> (it needs a code review to get rid of python-profiler to get into main)
<Amaranth> dunno if plugging in a completely new proxy system and writing a configuration GUI for it would be a summer kind of thing
<Kamion> KaiL_: well, "eats partition tables" is hardly ideal :-/
<ogra> Amaranth, it *has* a gui
<Amaranth> ogra: ooh, shiny
<Amaranth> ogra: what would it need that could be made into a SoC project?
<KaiL_> I wonder, why heise.de thinks, this is worth a message - somebody COULD think, their trolls are getting hungry ;)
<ogra> (a webdriven one, but writing a gtk frontend is trivial)
<ogra> Amaranth, as i said, it must drop the profiler dependency 
<Mithrandir> freeflying: around?
<Amaranth> ogra: that's it?
<ogra> and someone should write the actual gtk gui
* Kamion runs ubiquity-frontend-kde for the first time
<freeflying> Mithrandir: hi
<Amaranth> ogra: it's written in python and needs some code cleanup and a pygtk gui?
<Amaranth> i could do that :)
<ogra> Amaranth, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/bzr-archive/willowgui/ btw ;)
<ogra> i already started, but its not much beyond the glade state yet
<Mithrandir> freeflying: I'm looking at 40182 and it's a bit clearer what you're trying to do now.  However, I wonder where XMODIFIERS is usually set (in a normal, installed system)?
<Amaranth> ogra: GtkFileChooserButton == evil
<ogra> Amaranth, its been a first step
<Amaranth> ogra: i got tons of complaints when i tried using that in alacarte, some people like typing in paths
<Amaranth> ogra: yeah
<Amaranth> ogra: I might have to see if I can get accepted to work on this. :)
<ogra> feel free to drop and rewrite ... its just to give an impression how it could look like
<freeflying> Mithrandir:  in installcd , they were set up by im-switch , it is in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90im-switch
<Riddellll> sivang: no
<sivang> Riddellll: okay. 
<Mithrandir> freeflying: isn't /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90im-switch there on your (remastered) live cd?
<freeflying> Mithrandir: it's in 
<KaiL_> Kamion, maybe some "beta2" with that fixed and also the newest kernel might be an idea? ;)
<freeflying> Mithrandir: but now I'd source it before I start kdm
<ogra> Amaranth, a "transparent mode" would also be required (i.e. a willow initscript that sets the necessary iptable rules based on /etc/default/willow or something)
<Mithrandir> freeflying: uh, you shouldn't need to do that.
<Mithrandir> freeflying: anyway, it doesn't sound like a bug in casper at all; I would rather point at kdm (if you're using that) or kde-session (or whatever that's called)
<Amaranth> ogra: sounds doable, the only hard part would be choosing defaults
<ogra> yep
<freeflying> Mithrandir: but it can do one month ago
<Kamion> KaiL_: I don't fancy losing another night's sleep and about three days of otherwise productive work, thanks
<Mithrandir> freeflying: what do you mean?
<HiddenWolf> Can the espresso-installer be trusted to install a working system already?
<ogra> Amaranth, you dont need many defaults there ... it uses bayesian filtering and learns really quick
<Mithrandir> freeflying: it worked a month ago?  Well, I don't know what's changed in the KDE world.
<Amaranth> ogra: neat
<KaiL_> HiddenWolf, if you don't have any data on the disk, which must survive ;)
<ogra> so we dont need to ship black/whitelists and leave that part to the user
<HiddenWolf> KaiL_: was afraid of that.
<Kamion> current daily shouldn't have that problem
<ogra> it will still filter based on the bayesian filter
<janimo> is there going to be another flight before RC?
<freeflying> Mithrandir: I've remastered kubuntu's livecd 3 months ago ? it can work before, just not work recently
<Kamion> ubiquity >= 0.99.64
<Kamion> janimo: yes
<Amaranth> ogra: ok, so "package willow and write gtk gui"
<HiddenWolf> Kamion: A friend of mine is installing linux for the first time to see if he can do something for Google SoC. I'd rather not have him start by whiping his disk. ;)
<Amaranth> ogra: the cleanup and defaults stuff is a part of making a good package
<ogra> Amaranth, yep
<pitti> Riddell: mh21@piware.de
<Mithrandir> freeflying: ok.  Do you know which part of kubuntu is responsible for running /etc/X11/Xsession.d?
<Amaranth> ogra: willing to mentor that one? you seem to know a lot about it
<ogra> yep
<freeflying> Mithrandir: no specially
<Mithrandir> Riddell: which part of kubuntu runs /etc/X11/Xsession.d?
<nomed> janimo: deadline for that pool ?
<mdke> Riddellll, sure
<Riddellll> Mithrandir: kdm does
<bddebian> Morning Ubuntites
<Riddellll> Mithrandir: oh no, that'll be ksmserver
<bddebian> mdz: Sorry about the ffmpgetheora thing, I thought it said assign it to ubuntu-archive, not subscribe :-(
<mdz> bddebian: my document said subscribe; if there's something out there in the wiki or elsewhere saying assign, please feel free to correct it
<bddebian> mdz: No, it says subscribe, I'm just on crack :'-(
<Mithrandir> Riddell: thanks.
<elmo> mvo: ping?
<mvo> elmo: hello
<elmo> mvo: a bunch of us at the office have lost our update-notifier icons from the panel - was this intentional?  'cos I can't seem to find a way to add it back
<mvo> elmo: is it sill in runing (in memory)? or complettely gone?
<elmo> mvo: mine is in memory at least
<elmo> I sometimes get the new-style bubble popup saying "woo hoo, new updates", but it tells me to click on a non-existent icon for more info
<mvo> elmo: what does /var/lib/update-notifier/apt-check return?
<mvo> elmo: oh, that is interessting
<elmo> mvo: no such file or directory
<elmo> you mean /usr/ presumably
<elmo> with /usr/ it "just works", returns 0
<mvo> elmo: hm, does apt-get/aptitude dist-upgrade show that there are upgrades?
<elmo> mvo: for cvd, it's just not even in memory
<elmo> but cvd is way behind, whereas Iupdated last night
<elmo> mvo: yes, dselect shows upgrades
<mvo> elmo: hrm, it is in /etc/xdg/autostart now, it should be started in the session
<mvo> elmo: apt-get too? (I don't trust dselect ;)
<elmo> pfft
<elmo> 25 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
<elmo> ^-- apt-get dist-upgrade
* mvo digs into apt-check and why it does stupid things
<jono> Keybuk, ping
<Keybuk> jono: hey dude, 'sup?
<jono> Keybuk, all good, you?
<Keybuk> yeah pretty ok actually
<jono> kent, can you do me a favour?
<jono> Keybuk, do you have access to planetplanet.org
<Keybuk> jono: no, you want jdub for that
<jono> Keybuk, no worries :)
<Diziet> mdke: Did you read the instructions at the bottom of DapperFirefoxStartPageTranslation, which describe how to change the list ?
<Surak> mdz: ping
<mdz> Surak: yes?
<Surak> mdz: the mythtv packages report you as the maintainer. I also noticed that there's no mythtv in debian. Do you actively maintain mythtv?
<mdz> Surak: not anymore, no.  I believe Christian Marillat has started maintaining them going forward
<Surak> mdz: the ubuntu packages are quite outdated in ubuntu. How can I request a sync from Marillat? Or must someone volunteer for maintaing it in ubuntu?
<ogra> Surak, http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperRessources
<ogra> whoops
<ogra> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
<jsgotangco> looks like MOTU work to mee
<Surak> jsgotangco: indeed. But this is not a standard Debian package, it's maintained at http://debian.video.free.fr/ , which presents itself as "Unofficial Debian Packages". That's why I asked mdz for it.
<jono> hmm banshee cover art is broken
<jsgotangco> ahhh
<mdz> Surak: jsgotangco is correct; syncs are still requested in the same way
<mdz> it is possible that the marillat packages do not build cleanly on ubuntu yet, also
<mdke> Diziet, yes. Although understanding them is another matter
<Amaranth> jono: works here, but some tracks in an album found cover art and some didn't
<jono> Amaranth, actually, yeah it seems to work, its just pretty inconsistant
<Amaranth> yep
<Amaranth> and there is no way to manually add cover art
<Amaranth> perhaps this should be in #banshee on gimpnet
<Amaranth> this discussion, i mean
<tseng> jono: it uses musicbrainz vs straight amazon webservices due to legalish stuff
<tseng> amazon doesnt let you ship a devkey
<tseng> and the data in MB is hit or miss
<jono> no worries
<Diziet> mdke: The master list is only in ubuntu-docs source; it ships prepare-f-s-t (containing the list) into ubuntu-docs.deb, and all of the other packages use the list there by invoking p-f-s-t
<Diziet> That's why you just need to rebuild, but not edit, the other packages.
<mdke> Diziet, fine, i understand that far
<Surak> mdz: just for information, marillat's mythtv compiles cleanly on breezy when the mysql5's patch is removed. Ain't tried yet on dapper.
<raphink> hmm
<Diziet> And m-f-l-a has to go last so that no-one sees a `file not found'.
<mdke> yep
<raphink> I can't insert images in openoffice.org-impress
<raphink> :(
* tuxmaniac is away: Off for Dinner! 
<janimo> nomed, which poll?artwork?
<nomed> janimo: yes
<nomed>  join #xubuntu or ping highvoltage
<highvoltage> nomed: i'm here
<janimo> nomed yeah, just talking with him
<janimo> nomed, the artwork poll is over as Jozsef Mak said
<highvoltage> nomed: talking to janimo in PM
<janimo> so we go with steel blue
<nomed> ohh perfect
<janimo> since the poll on artwork forum showed people greatly prefer it to current or gray
<janimo> I liked green too but that was not a candidate :)
<janimo> anyway we finally have something consistent, I uploaded usplash and wallpaper for now
<nomed> usplash has something really strange ...
<nomed> it would be nice if some artist could check it ..
<ogra> it hasnt the final artwork yet
<ogra> (afaik)
<nomed> ogra do you mean usplash is not definitive ?
<bddebian> Should I put an xml file in /usr/share/packages/ for mime types or is there a better way?
<janimo> nomed, probably ubuntu artwork is not final yet
<nomed> janimo: ok
<nomed> but i'm refiring to xubuntu usplash
<janimo> I know, indeed it looks weird with that red
<janimo> maybe Jmak will know
<nomed> that has that red text while there is no red in the palette .. this is too strange for me :/
<Mithrandir> mvo: in apt, what decides if apt wants to download a package if you have a package with the same version installed (but built locally)?
<mvo> Mithrandir: I need to look it up 
<janimo> nomed, strage to me too, but I know nothing about usplash
<infinity> Mithrandir: dpkg keeps the md5 of the package (dpkg -p <paqckage> | grep ^MD5).  If that doesn't match the MD5 in the available file, I believe that triggers an upgrade.
<Mithrandir> infinity: makes sense
* Kamion writes https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DapperBeta/PartitionTableCorruption
<Keybuk> infinity: dpkg doesn't keep the md5 of the package
<Kamion> I think I'll link to that from releases.ubuntu.com
<Mithrandir> Kamion: ouch.
<infinity> Keybuk: Oh, is it just copying that straight from apt's merged availale info, then?
<infinity> Hrm.
<Keybuk> infinity: nope
<Keybuk> no md5 in status
<infinity> Mithrandir: In that case, I have no ida.  Wait for mvo to read apt's code. :)
<Keybuk> quest scott% grep "^MD5" /var/lib/dpkg/status
<Keybuk> zsh: exit 1     grep "^MD5" /var/lib/dpkg/status
<infinity> Keybuk: Er, yeah, but there are md5sums in dpkg/available, which could mismatch with apt's lists.
* bddebian pokes infinity
<Keybuk> infinity: no there aren't
<Keybuk> APT never touches /var/lib/dpkg/available
<infinity> Keybuk: Err, yes there are.  (is you use dselect, perhaps?)
<infinity> Which I do.
<Keybuk> possibly
<Keybuk> they're not important
<Keybuk> there's an MD5sum header in APT's own lists
<Keybuk> I don't think that's used for anything though
<infinity> Right, and there is in dpkg/available on my system, which is merged from apt lists.
<infinity> Anyhow, I'll let mvo come back with the canonical "I read the code instead of speculating" answer to Mithrandir's question. :)
<Keybuk> I *think*
<Keybuk> APT builds up a list of candidate versions
<Keybuk> which in theory would be the same as the installed version
<Keybuk> but if any header is different, it downloads it again
<Keybuk> (including, e.g. Installed-Size)
<mvo> Kamion: do you mind if I add "testdisk" to the "how-to-recover-your-partition" bit in your wiki-page? I had good results with it in the past 
<infinity> bddebian: Pong, but I'm heading to bed to nurse my cold.
<mvo> infinity: given the interesst in the topic, I'll have a look now, but IIRC Keybuk is right in his analysis
<infinity> The "if any header has changed" analysis?  Sounds reasonable enough.
<bddebian> infinity: I don't need anything, I was just poking you for fun, sorry.  Get well! :-)
<Keybuk> it's more fun when you have two candidates of the same version, and neither of them matches the one you're installed
<Keybuk> afaik, which one gets picked is random
<mvo> Keybuk: apt does not cope well with identical versions but different pacakges
<infinity> "Random" in apt almost always means "the first one it finds", so, the first one listed in the first Package file it parses.
<Kamion> mvo: not at all
<Kamion> mvo: (go ahead)
<BenC> is evolution all the sudden crashing constantly for anyone else?
<dholbach> BenC: What are you trying to do when it crashes?
<BenC> read email
<BenC> it's really whacked out
<ogra> BenC, try bug 40236
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40236 in evolution "evolution crashes out of the blue and stays in a crasher loop" [Unknown,Unknown]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40236
<dholbach> you click on a mail and it crashes? does it crash when you start it? or does it "simply" hang?
<BenC> nope, not it
<BenC> it just crashes randomly after about 10 seconds
<ogra> deleting the folder i was in (-changes) solved it 
<BenC> if I start it up and don't touch it, it crashes
<ogra> yep, that was the symptom here as well
<BenC> doesn't matter which folder I am in
<ogra> oh, you can actually change the folder 
<dholbach> BenC: can you install evolution-dbg and evolution-data-server-dbg and get a backtrace?
<ogra> it crashed faster for me
<BenC> the main symptom is that the folders with unread messages, start going "unbold" as if they have no unread messages, one-by-one, then it crtashes
* tuxmaniac is back (gone 00:47:09)
<ogra> tuxmaniac, please turn off public away messages in here
<dholbach> That sounds really weird - it'd be nice if you could get a backtrace of that.
<BenC> dholbach: doing that now
<dholbach> BenC: thanks a lot
<pitti> BenC: did you get my /msg from some hours back?
<BenC> this is a real serious problem for me, I'll do all that I can :)
<Kamion> Riddell: do you know how to find out from a PyQt signal handler what widget the signal was raised on?
<BenC> pitti: didn't you get the replies to it?
<pitti> BenC: no
<pitti> BenC: maybe your nick wasn't registered at that time?
<BenC> pitti: damnit, I wasn't idented to nickserv :/
<tuxmaniac> ogra: Sorry
<dholbach> BenC: If I can't a duplicate of it, it'd be nice to get a log obtained by    CAMEL_DEBUG=all evolution > evo.log  as well
<Riddell> Kamion: there's a way to do it in c++ at least but it's not recommended to reply on it
<Riddell> rely on it
<Kamion> how are you meant to distinguish widget from widget then? :)
<ogra> dholbach, or 2&>1 >evo.log to get stderr as well ? 
<Kamion> I'm just looking at a bug in the ubiquity-frontend-kde user-setup page which seems to be down to this
<ivoks> Kamion: syncing with debian is stoped?
<dholbach> ogra: the messages on stderr are not that important, but ok if you have them in as well
<ogra> i just noted :) 
<Kamion> ivoks: there's an LP bug that prevents us doing any syncs at the moment; cprov is looking at it as a matter of urgency
<ivoks> Kamion: ok, thanks for info
<infinity> Kamion: Oh, good, you filed that.  I was going to, but was too out of it to get to it.
<Kamion> Riddell: oh, should it just be connecting signals on different widgets to different methods?
<infinity> Kamion: bug#?
<Kamion> infinity: bug 40958
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40958 in qprocd "all sync attempts fail" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40958
<infinity> Thanks.
<Riddell> Kamion: http://doc.trolltech.com/3.3/qobject.html#sender
<Riddell> Kamion: but yes, the recommended way is just to use different slots for each widget
<Kamion> Riddell: ok, mind if I fix up your user-setup page while I'm in here? (I was really just trying to reproduce some partitioning problems, but ...)
<Riddell> Kamion: sure go ahead
* ogra watches Kamion turning into a QT programmer 
<Riddell> the tab order on that page is the most comical thing
<Riddell> ogra: I've already converted mvo :)
<ogra> haha
<ogra> really ? 
<Kamion> Riddell: I noticed the tab order, yes :)
<ogra> so next synaptic is in QT ?
<Kamion> Riddell: is that just widget order in the .ui file?
<Riddell> well, he did language-selector-qt
<mvo> ogra: yeah, its really nice 
<ogra> heh
* ogra waits for SMART then :)
<mvo> ogra: I seriously considered writing a new frontend for it :)
<Riddell> Kamion: I think it is, but it's usually best to define tab order explicitly in qt designer
<ogra> mvo, smart or synaptic ? 
<mvo> ogra: smart
<Riddell> which should take all of about seconds
<ogra> mvo, wont you change it anyway over time to fit into the package management tools ? 
<mvo> ogra: smart? well, its just a different backend, most higher level tools (g-a-i, update-manager, language-selector) don't need a lot of api, I think switching is not very hard. and smart is similar to apt in some ways :)
<ogra> yes, but it will need a synaptic replacement at some point 
<ogra> (or synaptic needs adjustment too)
<mvo> ogra: smart --gui is pretty good already (but needs some more love)
<ogra> mvo, btw, did you do anything with the g2ding stuff you grabbed from me ? 
<mvo> ogra: I hacked a bit on it, but nothing serious (too little time) - and toyed a bit with the idea of pyification it :)
<ogra> haha
<ogra> great
<Riddell> g2ding?
<ogra> yep
<mvo> Riddell: basicly a offline german<->english dictionary
<ogra> an old C program of mine to translate from german to english and a spellchecker 
<Riddell> ah, like leo
<ogra> http://www.grawert.net/python.png
<ogra> eek 
<ogra> wrong paste
<ogra> http://www.grawert.net/software/g2ding/
* janimo just had the nicest  PNP linux experience to date. Plug in random webcam, see it in dmesg, go though ekiga wizard, see pretty pictures
* Keybuk sets the "calling something PNP" goons onto janimo 
<janimo> I plugged it in, and it plays. Do you mind the N ? ;)
<Keybuk> PNP is an extension to the ISA bus to allow device identification
<ogra> janimo, lucky you, my usb webcam doent work 
<Keybuk> your webcam is *almost certainly* not on the ISA bus :)
<ogra> but thats BenC's fault, not Keybuk 
<jsgotangco> all my webcams dont work either
<janimo> and PNP is not just an ISA/bios acronym. It's also marketing speak
<Keybuk> janimo: this isn't 
<Keybuk> ubuntu-marketing
<janimo> and lately it's more likely the latter than the former
<Keybuk> this is ubuntu-devel, we like to be precise here, otherwise those of us who have to fix it when "PNP doesn't work" don't know what the hell you're talking about
<janimo> ogra, I did not expect it to work either, I'll add it to the supported hw wikipage
<janimo> does anyone still use ISA around?
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> everybody with a PC
<janimo> PNP?
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> everybody with a PC
<Keybuk> usually things like your floppy drive, PC speaker, real-time clock, AT keyboard, PS/2 mouse port, joystick port, IrDA, serial ports, etc.
<Keybuk> oh, parallel port too, obviously
<Keybuk> all those things are on the PNP bus in a modern PC
<Keybuk> dholbach: hmm, Ctrl+Shift-select isn't working in X-Chat today
<mjg59> Well, it's not strictly isa
<mjg59> But close enough
<janimo> Keybuk please edit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-and-play
<janimo> according to your reality :)
<Keybuk> janimo: Wikipedia in wrong shocker
<Keybuk> actually, the first paragraph of that seems to support my statements
<janimo> but the rest of the article does not
<janimo> and those peripherals while using ports not PCI style memory are still not ISA/PNP are they?
<bddebian> Bah, where's seb128 when I need him?
<Keybuk> and in English?
<janimo> bddebian: vacation  think
<bddebian> Noooo :_)
<janimo> Keybuk: I dont; think the PC speaker qualifies as a ISA PNP device
<Keybuk> it is
<Keybuk> janimo: http://www.mit.edu/afs/sipb/contrib/doc/PnP/
<janimo> checking
<Keybuk> janimo: PC speaker has an ioport, etc. to be able to send output to it
<janimo> so does everything with an ioport is ISA/PNP?
<Keybuk> no
<janimo> I thought the legacy devices had fixed port numbers
<Keybuk> usually that's true, yes
<janimo> so what's plugging got to do with them?
<mjg59> Keybuk: PNP is not just an extension of the ISA bus. 
<janimo> isn;t it that they retrofitted thePNP spec to cover legacy?
<mjg59> Varoius other technologies are described as PNP
<Keybuk> nothing, PnP is a specification for identifying connected devices
<mjg59> Right, including serial
<Keybuk> mjg59: wrongly, imo
<mjg59> Keybuk: Serial PNP is an MS spec
<Keybuk> yeah, that's ok
<Keybuk> it's when people descibe a USB webcam as "PnP" that irritates
<Keybuk> no, it's just USB!
<janimo> well I would still describe my plugging in of a webcam and having it work as a PNP experience. Having a beep from the console I would not
<Keybuk> likewise PCI
<Keybuk> device detection, identification and configuration is covered in the standard bus specs
<janimo> I did not describe my webcam as pnp mind you. (it's not even mine FWIW). Just my experience
<mjg59> Keybuk: PCI device ID is part of the bus spec, but its implementation in Windows is part of PNP
<Keybuk> mjg59: but it's implementation in Linux isn't :)
<bddebian> If I install package.xml in /usr/share/mime/packages/package.xml, I need to run update-mime-db in postinst??
<mjg59> Keybuk: If we'd had unified device id supply back in 95, it probably would have been
<mjg59> But, well
<Keybuk> clarity is always a bonus
<Keybuk> "my USB webcam doesn't work" is better than "my PnP webcam doesn't work"
<Keybuk> because we'd probably assume the latter was some sick ISAPnP webcam plugged into parport or something
<tseng> hah SGI indiecam
<Keybuk> I bet there also exists some sick ISA-on-USB chips out there
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> something has *seriously* busted Copy and Paste on GNOME today
<janimo> Keybuk, well there exist UART on USB
<Keybuk> janimo: oddly enough, I was thinking of something similar
<Keybuk> I have a USB device to connect to my train set
<janimo> is you r train set PNP?
<Keybuk> it's an RS-485 (Lenz Xpressnet) to RS-232 converter, with a UART, etc. then wrapped in a USB serial converter
<janimo> I was thinking of USB/rs232 dongles. probably similar
<Keybuk> yeah
<Keybuk> they originally had just an RS-485-to-Serial converter
<Keybuk> and rather than make a proper USB device, they just took that and stuck a USB converter on the front of *that*
<janimo> and I think many USB bluetooth chips are over UART/USB dongles too
<ivoks> w
<janimo> the ones that only implement the diall up profile
<bddebian> Folks, I apologize for being a PITA, but can anyone help me with this damn mime file so I can close this bug??
<janimo> well I guess because it's cheaper than making a proper usb device
<Keybuk> yeah
<Keybuk> look at all of the PCI wireless cards that are just a PCMCIA bridge :)
<kent> jono: you didnt meen to highligt me earlier right? it seems you where talking to another person..
<Keybuk> pitti: ok, I have a cute bug... my clock is wrong, but I can't sudo ntpdate because sudo bitches about a timestamp being too far in the futuer
<Keybuk> dholbach: help!
<Keybuk> dholbach: copy and paste isn't working in gnome today
<pitti> Keybuk: hm, I remember having seen that bug somewhere in bz
<dholbach> Keybuk: copying from where to where?
<Keybuk> dholbach: gnome-terminal to gnome-terminal using PRIMARY
<Keybuk> I paste with the middle-mouse and get SECONDARY
<Keybuk> seems to be true of every app
<Keybuk> x-chat notably can't hilight or delete/copy etc.
<Keybuk> pitti: sudo -k doesn't help either
<Keybuk> aha!  gksudo doesn't care <g>
<pitti> Keybuk: hm, strange, works fine for me
<pitti> Keybuk: I just set my clock one hour into the future and then sudo'ed 
<Keybuk> pitti: I set my clock to one year in the past
<Keybuk> try it that way
<pitti> ok
<dholbach> Keybuk: how did you end up in that state?
<Surak> alguem perguntou de cds. eu compro ha uns dez anos no linuxmall.com - tambem chamado cheapbytes
<Keybuk> dholbach: which state?
<pitti> Keybuk: I get the warning, but it doesn't stop me from executing sudo
<Keybuk> dholbach: I'm willing to believe that c&p is broken because of my clock change
<pitti> Keybuk: I remember that I already tried that before, but I couldn't reproduce it
<Keybuk> pitti: it causes sudo to do nothing for me
<pitti> it seems it needs a more detailled recipe
<Keybuk> I had to touch /var/run/sudo/scott to make it work
<dholbach> Keybuk: urg - I will try to reproduce that
<Tonio_> hi all
<pitti> drwx------ 2 root root 120 2005-04-24 11:40 martin
<pitti> Keybuk: ^ my stamp file, from a year ago
<Keybuk> pitti: with the date as normal, I did "sudo date 070900002005"
<Keybuk> obviously this gave me a 2006-era timestamp file
<Keybuk> then after that (and after ticket timeout) sudo no longer works
<mvo> Mithrandir: sorry for the long delay. the reason that apt wants to reinstall your local build package is that it builds a hash from "installed-size,depeds,pre-depends, conflicts, replaces" and considers two identical version only identical when this hash matches. if not it it considers them as two diferent versions that happen to have the same version number. than the normal priority system applies and that means that the local installed pack
<mvo> age has 100 and the one from the archive 500 -> the version from the archive is the new candidate
<mvo> (this is what Keybuk suspected :)
<Mithrandir> mvo: excellent, thanks. :-)
<mvo> Mithrandir: cheers .)
<pitti> Keybuk: call me stupid, I still can't reproduce it
<Kamion> hmm, I'm going to have to deliberately break partman to test my candidate fix for these ubiquity bugs
<Keybuk> mvo: cool, nice to know the exact details :)  I suspected Installed-Size was important
<Keybuk> pitti: heh; I didn't try this deliberately <g>
<pitti> Keybuk: hm, so again; I start with no stamp file at all?
<Keybuk> I started with no timestamp file
<Keybuk> did something to get one with the right date (2006)
<Keybuk> then sudo date 2005 to set my clock back
<Keybuk> did a lot of work, then tried to sudo date again
<mvo> Keybuk: yes :) I got a bugreport today about this as well (pining does not work when you have identical version numbers but different packages)
<Keybuk> and that wouldn't work, and gave that warning
<pitti> Keybuk: I just did that, and immediately after sudo date, I get asked for the password again, but it works
<pitti> Keybuk: I'll try it again and just let it time out now
<pitti> whoops, this seriously confused gtimelog :)
<Keybuk> quest libnih% sudo -s
<Keybuk> sudo: timestamp too far in the future: Aug  9 00:30:13 2005
<Keybuk> quest libnih%
<Keybuk> is the kind of thing I get
<Mithrandir> libnih, is that your libscott? :-)
<thom> august 9 2005? is that how far KNT has slipped now?
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: yeah
<Keybuk> thom: lol
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: is the collection of random routines and stuff that I've written over the years, I mostly just C&P into stuff I write
* bddebian cries
<highvoltage> no woman no cry
<bddebian> heh
<ogra> HiddenWolf, oh, did she leave him ? 
<ogra> err
<ogra> highvoltage, 
<ogra> do you know more than we ? 
<highvoltage> ogra: 
<ogra> tell us !
<highvoltage> hehe. no.
<bddebian> If she was smart she would :-)
<abelcheung> op[
<highvoltage> they playd bob marley on the radio on the way home.
<Mithrandir> ogra: you know "no woman no cry" does not mean "if there's no woman, there's no cryin'" but rather "woman, don't cry"?
<highvoltage> bddebian: what's wrong, you're keeping us all in suspense
<highvoltage> Mithrandir: i never knew that
<Keybuk> *giggle*
<Kamion> Keybuk: do you happen to know if it's intentional that dpkg doesn't call the prerm when removing a package that's only unpacked?
<Mithrandir> highvoltage: the song makes a lot more sense that way.
<ogra> heh
<Keybuk> ogra: setting the date *forward* by more than five minutes activates the screensaver
<Keybuk> Kamion: what state was the package in?
<highvoltage> xscreensaver has been doing that for a long time.
<Keybuk> Kamion: valid unpacked but not configured state?
<ogra> Keybuk, i only knew that it happens if you adjust it by an hour ... (with *all* screensaver implementations apparently=
<ogra> s/=/)/
<Keybuk> ogra: oh, well I adjusted it by two months :)
<Kamion> Keybuk: 'install ok unpacked'; failed to configure due to dependencies
<Keybuk> Kamion: I think it's intentional that it doesn't yeah
<Keybuk> prerm remove "undoes" postinst configure
<Keybuk> postrm remove "undoes" preinst install
<Keybuk> etc.
<Keybuk> you'd have to feed iwj enough alcohol to get him to the same mindstate he was in when he wrote that bit, and then ask him, for absolute clarification
<Keybuk> you may find that the way he *intended* it work work, and the way it actually works, are at odds; of course :)
<Kamion> Keybuk: oh, hmm, ok
<ogra> sure that was alcohol ?
<Mithrandir> just ask marga to make a diagram of how it's supposed to work?
<Kamion> the real problem I'm having is that dh_python's prerm script is responsible for removing .pyc and .pyo files on package removal
<Keybuk> lol
<Keybuk> marga makes diagrams of how it actually works
<Keybuk> which makes people realise it doesn't work how it's supposed to
<bddebian> highvoltage: This stupid mime/xml file for anjuta
<Keybuk> Kamion: what are those generated by?
<Keybuk> Kamion: postinst, no?
<Kamion> and dh_python's postinst fragment compiles everything in /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages, not just the .py files for this package
<Kamion> so it's generated by some other package's postinst
<Keybuk> yeah, those should probably be removed in postrm not prerm
<Keybuk> as I understand the intended operation
<Kamion> ok, I'll file a debhelper bug
<Keybuk> ah
<Keybuk> yes, definitely intentional
<Keybuk> prerm was called
<Keybuk> "prerm upgrade" is called before ver 2 is unpacked
<dholbach> Kamion: thanks for removing the packages from the archive.
<Keybuk> so ver 1 prerm has been called, and told it was being called due to upgrade
<Keybuk> so there's no reason for ver 2 prerm to be called until it's been configured
<Keybuk> as I follow this logic
<janimo> dholbach: what's the best irc chan to ask gtk app dev related questions?
<dholbach> janimo: #gtk+ on irc.gnome.org
<janimo> dholbach: thanks
<dholbach> janimo: anytime
<Kamion> Keybuk: (in this case it's a newly installed package so the prerm wasn't in fact called)
<Keybuk> Kamion: yeah, the logic still stands from the upgrade case though
<Keybuk> it implies prerm matches postinst
* Kamion nods
<Keybuk> which is how I've always understood it, anyway
* Kamion pastes all this into a debhelper bug report then
<Lure> pitti: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportWlassistant says approved, but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMainInclusionQueue says it is still in queue
<Lure> pitti: what is correct?
<pitti> Lure: yes, because I'm not sure which of knetworkmaanger or wlassistant we'll use eventually
<pitti> Riddell: ^ ?
<Riddell> pitti: knetworkmanager will just follow network-manager-gnome which last I checked isn't installed by default
<ogra> but its in main
<pitti> Riddell: and wlassistant will be?
<Riddell> so wlassistant would be installed by default
<pitti> Riddell: it smells like redundancy :)
<ogra> wlassistant == wpasupplicant for knetworkmanager ? 
<Riddell> pitti: we already have kwifimanager which duplicates both knetworkconf and knetworkmanager, wlassistant just duplicates knetworkmanager
<ogra> ah
<jjesse> knetworkmanager is easier to use then wlassistant 
<jjesse> and i've found it to be more reliable
<Riddell> ogra: no, it's a fairly simple wifi scanning and connection tool
<Lure> ogra: but just unencrypted and WEP
<Lure> (no WPA - you need knetworkmanager & wpasupplicant for WPA*)
<pitti> Riddell: so, you want both in main?
<Riddell> pitti: yes please
<pitti> alright
<Riddell> until network manager can be installed by default
<pitti> gar, what broke mouse copy&paste in gnome-terminal???
* soumyadip is away: dinner
<pitti> Riddell: are the KDE printing patches now in dapper?
<Riddell> pitti: yes
<pitti> Riddell: I still have some bugs wrt. broken Kubuntu printing
<pitti> like bug 39563
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39563 in cupsys "Unable to print to a Canon Prixma IP 1000" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39563
<pitti> Riddell: ok, then I'll ask the reporter to upgrade and check again
<Riddell> pitti: yeah, I should start going through those, although first I'd like confirmation from someone other than me that it works now
<pitti> aargh, I need mouse middle click for pasting, it's in my fingers
<ogra> you can use shift+ctrl+{c,v} :)
<pitti> doko: can you please take a look at bug 34599?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 34599 in cupsys "Canon PIXMA IP xxxx don't work" [Major,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/34599
<pitti> doko: it seems that the generated postscript lacks %BoundingBox, i. e. is regarded as invalid. Do you know whether that's due to a faulty PPD?
<doko> pitti: cups says, it's missing?
<pitti> doko: yes, see last bug comment
<Riddell> doko: did you upload my openoffice .desktop files fix for KDE?
<doko> Riddell: the line should be in all desktop files
<Riddell> doko: all openoffice ones yes
<doko> Riddell: was this a question, or an confirmation?
<Riddell> confirmation
<Riddell> doko: do you have the patch, or shall I redo it, I can't seem to find a copy just now
<doko> Riddell: ??? why redo it ???
<Riddell> doko: because I can't find where I put it
<Riddell> doko: unless you already applied it?
<doko> Riddell: yes, it's applied and uploaded
<doko> amd64 still missing
<Riddell> oh excellent
<Riddell> right, the explains why I'm not seeing it
<doko> ahh, ok
<Riddell> I see it now, sorry for the confusion
<Riddell> doko: next thing is that openoffice-kde doesn't seem to work on amd64
<doko> Riddell: at all?
<Riddell> doko: it runs, but it's not using the KDE style
<doko> are openoffice.org-gtk and openoffice.org-kde installed?
<doko> are openoffice.org-gtk and openoffice.org-gnome installed?
<Riddell> hmm, and File->Save just froze X
<Riddell> neither of openoffice.org-gtk-gnome or openoffice.org-gtk are installed
<doko> Riddell: oowriter --widgets-set kde comes up with the KDE style, but I'm running it in gnome
<Riddell> oowriter --widgets-set comes up as build-in widgets for me
<Riddell> ah, if I install openoffice.org-gtk-gnome and openoffice.org-gtk then it comes up with the qt style
<LaserJock> mdz: thank you, thank you, thank you for "Bug forwarding methodology in Ubuntu"
<doko> Riddell: remove openoffice.org-gtk-gnome and openoffice.org-gnome, does it still use qt?
<Riddell> doko: yes, still using qt
<doko> Riddell: do you have openoffice.org-gtk's dependencies on the kubuntu CD?
<Riddell> doko: no
<doko> Riddell: just found out, that /usr/lib/qt3/plugins/inputmethods/libqscim.so is not linked against libqt 
<doko> there's one report open for that one ...
<mdz> LaserJock: does that mean you volunteer to help with the proposed team? ;-)
<bddebian> heh
<Riddell> doko: curious
<doko> hmm, you should never try to remove left-over diversions in the preinst ...
<LaserJock> mdz: perhaps, but this issue has really bugged me. I *want* to help get bugs upstream (especially MOTUScience bugs) but the process is so labor intensive
<mdz> fabbione: can we make x11-common conflict with xorg-common so that xorg-common gets removed on upgrades?
<LaserJock> mdz: bddebian has added ~40 .desktop files from people to science packages, but I don't want to carry all that diff and they really need to go upstream
<bddebian> LaserJock: I have a folder in my inbox that I want to submit to Debian when I'm "done" :-)
<LaserJock> mdz: right now I'm looking at having to contact 40 upstreams, which isn't exactly fun :/
<LaserJock> bddebian: I was going to try  emailing debian-science with a link to find the .desktops and/or debdiffs
<bddebian> Ahh
<mdz> Keybuk: the backgrounding of hwclock.sh seems to interact poorly with usplash
<mdz> Keybuk: can it be fixed, or should we just remove the messages since it's happening in the background?
<mdz> Keybuk: I expect we can't properly do usplash status messages in parallel
<bddebian> Grrr, how do I get apt-get build-dep to continue on errors?
<Keybuk> mdz: yeah, i've noticed that already, the [ok]  gets lost
<mdz> Keybuk: or rather, it actually comes up 1 second later ;-)
<Keybuk> we can just replace that entire script with "udevplug /class/misc/rtc" anyway
<Keybuk> it's only needed while /etc/localtime is a symlink to something under /usr
<Keybuk> (and people insist on putting /usr on a different partition)
<mdz> Keybuk: I'd feel a bit safer about just removing the messages ;-)
<mdz> (for dapper)
<Keybuk> agree
<mdz> Keybuk: would it be reasonable to force VERBOSE=no to get that effect?
<mdz> or preferable to just rip out the code?
<mdz> presumably debian isn't using it
<Keybuk> just rip out the code is easier
<mdz> Keybuk: mind doing that one for me?
<mdz> I'm behind on administrative matters
<Keybuk> done
<mdz> thanks
<Keybuk> was just testing it
<Keybuk> oh, meh, this upload is going to look messy :p
* Keybuk regenerates it with the clock set to 2006, not 2005 :p
<mdz> dholbach: do you think it would be OK to use --oknodo in /etc/init.d/gdm stop?
<dholbach> mdz: For the moment I can't see any complications this might make.
<dholbach> mdz: Is this a change needed for usplash?
<mdz> dholbach: I just have a list of cosmetic issues with startup/shutdown
<mdz> dholbach: one of them is that gdm doesn't print an 'ok'
<mdz> that's presumably because gdm is already dead and start-stop-daemon exits nonzero
<dholbach> mdz: Ok, I see - do you want to do that change now, or shall I tell seb, who wanted to update gdm anyway?
<mdz> dholbach: isn't seb away on holidays?
<mdz> dholbach: it's not urgent, no
<dholbach> mdz: he is, yes.
<mdz> dholbach: the restart action has "stop || true" anyway, so I don't see that it could have negative side effects
<dholbach> mdz: sounds good to me, yeah.
<dholbach> mdz: if you want to get it all done, it's fine. I'll add it to my todo list to make sure it's done.
<bddebian> Damn, I need a KDE Ubuntu install
<bddebian> And an ia64, and a PPC, and, and, and.. :-)
<Mithrandir> bddebian: and a pony!
<ogra> Mithrandir, yes i noted there was still no checkmark on "Horse" in your "am i spoiled" questionnaire :)
<bddebian> Mithrandir: Nah, I prefer Goats.. ;-P
<Mithrandir> ogra: I still live in a 80m flat in downtown Oslo and we don't have a balcony yet, so..
<bddebian> Oh, was that a real e-mail?  I thought it was spam
<ogra> meh
<Mithrandir> ogra: I suspect simira might want one when we move to a proper house, but that's not for a few more years.
<ogra> we'll move into a city soon, so we wont have a pony either ... 
<ogra> :(
<Mithrandir> you have one today?
<ogra> and whats worse no bees for me :/
<ogra> nope, but we were planning to get one this summer
<ogra> a donkey and a pony
<mdz> dholbach: so long as it is on someone's list and is done well before RC ;-)
<dholbach> mdz: I pondered buying a huge whiteboard instead of pen and paper for my todo lists - I just can't get used to use the computer for them.
<mdz> dholbach: I just use text files
* Nafallo uses tomboy :-)
<mdz> except while making notes about the boot process
<mdz> or during workrave breaks
<LaserJock> dholbach: me neither, I just have a huge stack of sticky notes on my desk
<mdz> then I use paper
<dholbach> I tend to accidentally delete them or have them on different machines, ...
<ogra> mdz, hey you are supposed to take *breaks* if workrave telly you ... not just switch the media ... thats cheating
<ogra> *tells
<Mithrandir> dholbach: if you have a nearby IKEA: they sell a1 whiteboards for about 10-15, iirc
<dholbach> Mithrandir: WOW
<Mithrandir> dholbach: (we have three of them)
<dholbach> Mithrandir: that's brilliant
<dholbach> I'll be late tomorrow
<dholbach> :-p
<ogra> hmm, hothing on the ikea website
<ogra> i'd like some as well for my new office
<Mithrandir> dholbach: http://www.ikea.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10103&storeId=5&langId=-3&productId=11098
<Mithrandir> dholbach: the pens they have are silly so buy some decent ones from a bookshop instead.  They cost more but won't dry so quickly.
<ogra> hmm
<dholbach> good to know - thanks a lot
<mdz> ogra: I spend much of my workrave breaks thinking about things that need to be done
<ogra> 80x58 ?
<mdz> ogra: if I don't write them down, I forget them
* dholbach hugs Mithrandir
<ogra> mdz, you need a secretary, really :)
* bddebian volunteers ;-P
<mdz> a voice recorder would be more practical
<Mithrandir> ogra: ok, almost.  A1 is 594x841mm
<tseng> i like small index cards
<mdz> if I had a secretary, I would need to dress for work
<tseng> more than post-its
<ogra> heh, yes, but voice recorders selom look as good :)
<ogra> *seldom
<ogra> lol
<ogra> yes
<bddebian> Heya tseng
<tseng> hi bddebian 
<Mithrandir> mdz: just a voice link to your secretary, then
<tseng> mdz: in my office the secretary comes to work at least 4 days a week
<tseng> mdz: the VP comes much less
<bddebian> heh
<bddebian> Is the secretary gone when the VP is gone?? ;-P
<tseng> no.
<ogra> Mithrandir, oh, i was reading A0 above, sorry
<ogra> sure thats A1
<Mithrandir> ogra: but at that price, you can buy two. :-P
<Mithrandir> which gives you a0
<ogra> yep
<ogra> :)
<ogra> (i dont even know if my new office has space for whiteboards ... should find out first :) )
<highvoltage> wiki's are the new whiteboards. although it's more difficult to get excited and write stuff frantically on a wiki than on a whiteboard.
<Mithrandir> highvoltage: wikis suck for drawing stuff on, though
<netstar> Does powerpc ubuntu glibc include: http://penguinppc.org/dev/glibc/glibc-powerpc-cpu-addon.html
<Kamion> Riddell: the embedded qtparted doesn't seem to be starting for me; it just exits immediately
<Riddell> Kamion: curious, I've never had any problems with that
<Kamion> don't think it's something I'd have broken with my changes today
<Mithrandir> ogra: does the edubuntu live cd support being a terminal server?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> you can apt-get it though
<ogra> but it wont be fun to run it
<Kamion> mdz: I'm considering a fairly quick Flight CD 7 release this week after bug 40464; any comments?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40464 in ubiquity "espresso crashes on partitioning step in Kubuntu 6.06 LTS Beta Live CD" [Critical,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40464
<ogra> is it really flight 7 ? not beta 2 ?
<Kamion> ogra: I'm concerned about spending the sort of developer time that would be needed for beta 2
<ogra> but it fixes stuff from beta ... so the naming would suggest that
<Kamion> i don't know
<Kamion> the naming is not my primary concern right now anyway
<ogra> indeed
<Mithrandir> beta 1 - flight 7?
<ogra> Mithrandir, good idea
<Kamion> the question implied by naming is whether it goes on cdimage.u.c or releases.u.c
<Kamion> releases.u.c has traditionally been held to a higher standard of QA
<Kamion> in the past we haven't really faced the question of something published on releases.u.c that turns out to have dangerous bugs, though
<Kamion> there's the possibility of doing Flight 7 for the text-mode install CD and an updated beta desktop CD, I guess
<Mithrandir> we could just call it beta 1.1
<Kamion> which would be half the effort to QA
<Kamion> (well, ish)
<bluefoxicy> damnit.
<Kamion> the beta text-mode install CD is fine AFAIK, we don't need to update it
<Mithrandir> yeah
<bluefoxicy> There's a lot of new DRM code in 2.6.16, chunks of the DRM system seem to have been fundamentally reworked
<Keybuk> did we decide what we're actually calling that yet?  "text-mode install CD" is a bit of a mouthful
<bluefoxicy> and via is still broke on 2.6.15
<Kamion> Keybuk: haven't seen better suggestions yet :(
<bddebian> TMIC
<ogra> Keybuk, it was used in the announcement iirc
<bluefoxicy> time to build a 2.6.16 kernel and see if it fixes it.
<Keybuk> Kamion: I liked "console CD", as it suggests a partner to "desktop"
* bluefoxicy gets the source
<ogra> so until something better comes along it might be the wording
<Kamion> Keybuk: but it suggests that the result will be a non-X installation
<Kamion> (to me, anyway)
<mdz> Kamion: yes, I'd like to get into a shorter rhythm of Flight releases post-Beta, since they should be relatively lightweight (we'll be very conservative when it comes to disruptive changes)
<ogra> Kamion++
<Keybuk> so does "text-mode install" (to me)
<Kamion> at least it admits the possibility of the adjective modifying "install" rather than the whole thing
<ogra> text *based* would be better
<Kamion> mdz: what do you think of doing another beta live CD?
<Mithrandir> mdz: what does "shorter rhytm" mean?  Weekly or every second week?
<mdz> Kamion: in terms of naming or process?
<Kamion> mdz: either, really
<bluefoxicy> I'm downloading a 2.6.16.10 bz2 from kernel.org, what's the best way to build it aside from hand-configuration?
<Kamion> in terms of "should we, given that the installer has a significant risk of trashing your disk"
<crimsun> (why not "Traditional" for the install CD?)
<Kamion> traditional is OK by me, I can't remember whether it came up
<ogra> "classic" !
<tseng> bluefoxicy: 2.6.16 won't be in dapper, you are kind of cluttering important time-relevant discussion.
<mdz> Kamion: sounds too safe and warm
<bluefoxicy> tseng:  nod.  -offtopic then?
<mdz> Mithrandir: weekly would be ideal but I think the overhead is still too high
<tseng> bluefoxicy: wherever.
<tseng> bluefoxicy: #-kernel if you have a point
<mdz> Kamion: how would a hypothetical second beta differ from flight 7, other than naming?  I think a full test cycle a la beta would be excessive
<bluefoxicy> tseng:  ah yes, forgot about that one, thanks.
<Kamion> mdz: going on releases.u.c, replacing existing beta
<mdz> Kamion: we'd have to be careful if we want useful bug reports
<Kamion> mdz: I know, but the impact of 40464 is such that I'm not getting useful installer bug reports
<Kamion> they're dominated by "oh my god it ate my disk"
<mdz> Kamion: ok then, if it's worth the "which beta are you using?" headaches, then yes
<Kamion> and I think people are being scared off trying it
<Kamion> (understandably)
<sivang> re
<Kamion> mdz: we'd have to call it beta 1.1 or beta 2 or something to help with that
<bddebian> Anyone know what I can do about this: 
<bddebian> configure.in:1467: error: possibly undefined macro: AC_CHECK_TCLTK
<bddebian>       If this token and others are legitimate, please use m4_pattern_allow.
<bddebian>       See the Autoconf documentation.
<bddebian> wb sivang
<mdz> Kamion: beta 2
<Mithrandir> beta 2 and just copy d-i install cds beta 1 to beta 2?
<Kamion> if I have time tomorrow, I'll try to get a crash dialog thing into ubiquity, to reduce the bug triage turnaround time
<crimsun> bddebian: url in -motu?
<Kamion> Mithrandir: that's certainly possible
<bddebian> crimsun: ?
<Kamion> and if possible fix the passwords-logged-in-debug-mode problem and default UBIQUITY_DEBUG=1
<Kamion> anyway, time for not-work, night all
<mdz> Kamion: what's special about the circumstances in #40464?  I never saw anything like it
<bddebian> Gnight Kamion
<Kamion> mdz: requires the installer frontend to crash while partman is running
<Kamion> mdz: can happen if you have e.g. unclean partitions that parted throws an error on
<ogra> i just had one case in #edubuntu 
<Kamion> I haven't nailed down the exact set of circumstances, but that's reasonably close I think
<ogra> seems to happen quite frequently
<mdz> Kamion: does the fix make it robust against GUI crashes in general?
<Kamion> mdz: yes, I believe so
<Kamion> debconffiltered subprocesses will now go the hell away as soon as they try to talk to debconf (they'll get SIGPIPE and terminate)
<Kamion> whereas before, thanks to python, they got SIGPIPE and carried on
<Kamion> and the partitioner always tries to talk to debconf for the confirmation question before committing anyway
<Kamion> anything
<Kamion> it also fixes a class of problems where the installer crashed and then couldn't be restarted because something was still talking to debconf
<mdz> Kamion: I'm undecided over whether we should replace the existing beta or break the links from the announcement
<Kamion> got to go, sorry to leave in the middle of a discussion; I'll read scrollback though
<jcole> http://www.codeweavers.com/support/tickets/browse/?ticket_id=77466;s_subject=ubuntu;search=%20Submit%20Search%20
<jcole> that says i need to recompile my kernel for CONFIG_3GB
<jcole> =y
<Keybuk> use a server kernel
<jcole> $ grep GB=y config-2.6.15-21-686
<jcole> CONFIG_1GB=y
<jcole> ah
<Keybuk> I think, anyway
<jcole> i'll install and grep the config...
<mjg59> jcole: That's been fixed for some time
<Keybuk> though I can't even find that define in the current kernel source
<mjg59> If you're having problems, that's not the fix
<jcole> mjg59: kernel 2.6.15-21 is the latest i can find for dapper
<mjg59> jcole: Yes
<mjg59> It has the correct 3:1 split
<mjg59> Ignore the options, they're confusingly named
<jcole> mjg59: i'm running 2.6.15-20, maybe i need to reboot into it?
<mjg59> jcole: No, it's fixed in that as well
* jcole installs 2.6.15-21
<mjg59> What error are you getting?
<jcole> mjg59: my system just freezes up hard
<jcole> $ grep GB=y config-2.6.15-21-server
<jcole> CONFIG_1GB=y
<jcole> crap
<jcole> well, htat's not going to work
<Amaranth> <mjg59> Ignore the options, they're confusingly named
<mjg59> jcole: I'm sorry, I don't understand
<mjg59> jcole: The report you pointed at is about a crash in a userspace application, not a kernel freeze
<jcole> according to sedwards in #crossover, i need CONFIG_3GB=y
<mjg59> jcole: Not in the Ubuntu case
<mjg59> Trust me on this. The kernel configuration is the one you want, and the misconfiguration would *not* cause a hard freeze
<Robot101> explodes
<jcole> mjg59: i'm running in hyperthread (smp) mode
<mjg59> jcole: That makes no difference
<jcole> mjg59: :/
<mjg59> jcole: This bug report http://www.codeweavers.com/support/tickets/browse/?ticket_id=77466;s_subject=ubuntu;search=%20Submit%20Search%20
<mjg59> has nothing to do with system freezes
<bluefoxicy> wait i'm confused
<bluefoxicy> does ubuntu use 3G Kernel/1G User or 3G User/1G Kernel now?
<jcole> maybe i should install 2.6.15-18 and diff the config?
* bluefoxicy had to move to 64-bit because of the 1G limit in user space months ago, thought it was a bug.
<jcole> people seem to having success with crossover on version 2.6.15-18
<jcole> but of course, i can't find it in apt, lol
<jcole> can someone diff those kernel configs?
<mjg59> jcole: Without telling us what the bug actually /is/, no
<jcole> mjg59: i'm trying to install IE in crossover office and when running the IE setup my system locks up
<jcole> mjg59: worked on the breezy system here
<mjg59> That's much more likely to be an X problem than a kernel one
<jcole> mjg59: there doesn't seem to be any up kernel anymore, is there a kernel param i can use to disable smp?
<mjg59> jcole: nosmp, I think
<mjg59> The -386 kernel is still up only
<mjg59> But again, I doubt that's your problem
<jcole> mjg59: i've been using crossover for many years and remember there was once a problem with wine+smp
<mjg59> jcole: If there is, it's a wine bug not a kernel bug
<jcole> mjg59: wine does some scary stuff with memory and binary code
<mjg59> Can you still ping the machine while it's frozen?
<jcole> mjg59: no, it's dead, i tried to ssh to it, then ping it with no success
<mjg59> Hm. Interesting.
<mjg59> Might be a kernel issue, then (but certainly not the 3/1 split thing)
<jcole> mjg59: brb, i'll try nosmp
<bluefoxicy> mjg59:  what's the 3/1 split look like?  K/U or U/K?
<mjg59> bluefoxicy: kernel/user, I believe
<mjg59> Oh, no, other way around
<bluefoxicy> mjg59:  Ah, 3 gig in userspace again?
<mjg59> Back to the default
<bluefoxicy> A few months ago i moved to an AMD64 base install because somehow there was 1G U and 3G K  and Gimp crashed while I was editing an image with 45 layers :P
<bluefoxicy> mjg59:  why was it 1/3 instead for a while?  Design decision?  Bug?
<mjg59> It was 2/2 for a while
<mjg59> Worked around a couple of other bugs, but broke some userspace apps
<bluefoxicy> mmm.  I threw a test program at it that mmap()ed out sets of pages and calculated how much it could mmap() before they started to fail, it always stopped a few megs short of a gig.
<bluefoxicy> interestingly, when I got to amd64, it started doing it up to 87TiB
<trappist> well a 64bit cpu can map a lot more than 4GB
<bluefoxicy> Did 22369619 mappings of 4194304 = 93824982450176
<bluefoxicy>                 87381GiB
<jdong> bluefoxicy: dude... it's 64-bit...
<bluefoxicy> trappist:  a 64-bit CPU with a 48-bit virtual address space (AMD64) can map 256TiB
<bluefoxicy> I was more expecting a 64TiB kernel/192TiB User split, but :)
<bluefoxicy> it doesn't really matter much either way
<bluefoxicy> it looks like 2/3 go to kernel, 1/3 to user
<bluefoxicy> if that's even possible; 256 doesn't divide by 3 very well, nor does 1024 (the base raised exponentially to calculate bytes from TiB) or 4096 (the page size).
<jcol1> got disconnected
<dholbach> Kinnison: g-p-m 2.14.2 for you - rejoice!
<mvo> dholbach: does  it have the inhibit dbus interface?
<dholbach> mvo: I didn't read the diff, so I have no idea - sorry.
<mvo> dholbach: slacker ;)
* dholbach strangles mvo with passion.
* mvo can feel the love
<dholbach> Ok, I call it a day
<mdke> night
<bddebian> Gnight dholbach
<Surak> Kamion: should all espresso bugs be moved to ubiquity?
<BenC> dholbach: ping
<mdke> unlucky
<mdke> has a positive decision been taken to hide mounted partitions on the desktop again, or did the fix to bug #28991 get dropped?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 28991 in nautilus "drives icons on the desktop for dapper?" [Normal,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/28991
<desrt> so the prevailing theory is that bootup (of gnome and say, ubuntu, in general) is that the system spends tonnes of time waiting on disk io, right?
<desrt> mdke; originally mounted partitions were hidden except for ones in /media and /mnt (which were shown)
<desrt> mdke; pitti then changed it so that only the ones in /media are shown (/mnt is hidden again)
<mdke> well, now they aren't again
<desrt> /mnt is back?
<mdke> no, nothing is shown
<desrt> is show_volumes selected?
<desrt> volumes_visible, even
<mdke> oh hell
<mdke> it is, must be a different bug
<desrt> mdke; only volumes with mountpoints in /media will be shown
<mdke> i thought everything that is mounted automatically goes there
<desrt> no.
<desrt> this is a change to hal and gnome-vfs that happened right around the release of gnome 2.14
<desrt> i think the change was to gnome-vfs and pitti got angry and vendor-patched hal to mitigate the negative effects
<mdke> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/sounder/2006-April/006212.html
<desrt> i personally think everyone ought to use the drivemount applet :)
<mdke> desrt, but sadly Ubuntu doesn't provide that by default
<desrt> mdke; it's very very easy to add
<mdke> desrt, only if you know it's there
<desrt> fair
<joelbryan> anyone, is there an issue with binding <Ctrl><Alt>Delete with gnome-system-monitor?
* desrt cannot imagine one
<joelbryan> I reported a bug and include a script to do that, #41186
<joelbryan> Bug #41186
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 41186 in ubuntu-meta ubuntu-desktop "Configure Ctrl-Alt-Del to open Gnome System Monitor" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/41186
<mdke> you need to file it on gnome-session, I think
<joelbryan> or metacity?
<joelbryan> What does ubuntu-desktop do, anyways?
<mdke> joelbryan, it doesn't do anything, but it has lots of dependencies
<LaserJock> joelbryan: ubuntu-desktop is a metapackage that depends on all the various bits that make up the Ubuntu Desktop, or something like that
<joelbryan> ok
<mdke> Kinnison, bug #39448 for you to consider when you have time.
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 39448 in gnome-power-manager acpi-support "Screen is not locked when it should be" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/39448
<mdke> Kinnison, ping me if you'd like to discuss
#ubuntu-devel 2006-04-30
<bddebian> Howdy
<jmg> is malone taking a beeting or is it just me?
<bddebian> A beating even? ;-P
<jmg> beating
<jmg> wiki too
<bddebian> Should Flight 5 bugs be rejected?
<mdke> bddebian, if they have been fixed
<mdke> hey sabdfl, you around for 2 mins?
<bddebian> Is there even a flash-player meta package anymore?
<mdke> bddebian, there is an installer package
<bddebian> Actually called flash-player?  I can't find one?
<mdke> flashplugin-nonfree - Macromedia Flash Player plugin installer
<mdke> bddebian, see the Ubuntu Desktop Guide for more information :D
<bddebian> Sorry I'm just looking at unconfirmed bugs and that's an old one
<mdke> there used to be a flashplayer package which shipped the thing, but it was removed because we didn't have the appropriate licence 
<mdke> infinity was looking into getting permission to ship it again
<bddebian> Same for flashplayer-mozilla plugin?
<mdke> that was the one
<mdke> sabdfl, I'll leave you a query
<jono> jdub, Mr Waugh, are you present on this fine evening?
<jmg> why cant i edit a spec on lp? says permission denied
<jmg> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenEnabledKernelDraft
<bddebian> Anyone awake that can check an upload for me?
<sfllaw> bddebian: I'm awake.  But I'm not competent yet.  :)
<bddebian> sfllaw: :-)
<sfllaw> What's involved in checking an Ubuntu upload?
<bddebian> sfllaw: I didn't get an accept or reject message :-)
<bddebian> I probably need lamont, Kamion, or infinity?
<sfllaw> Ah.  Well then.
<sfllaw> Best go back to sleep.
<ajmitch> hi simon 
<sfllaw> ajmitch: Hey.
<bddebian> sfllaw: Where do I know you from?
<sfllaw> #hurd.
<sfllaw> I'm coleSLAW.
<bddebian> sfllaw: I knew the coleSLAW nick, I just couldn't remember where I'd seen it :)
<bddebian> I'm getting senile in my old age :-)
<sfllaw> Barry, really.  You're a young-un.
<bddebian> Yeah right :-)
<ajmitch> bddebian: another reason why you should have been at UBZ
<bddebian> ajmitch: Whazzat?
<sfllaw> Ubuntu Below Zero.
<sfllaw> I was there.  Got myself a GNU T-shirt, even.
<sfllaw> Very spiffy.
<bddebian> No, I mean what reason :-)
<sfllaw> (I think that was that conference.)
<bddebian> nictuku: Did you get an e-mail about smart?
<nictuku> bddebian, you mean from LP about your changes? if so, yes
<bddebian> nictuku: OK, good, just checking :-)
<ajmitch> sfllaw: yeah, UBZ was the one in montreal 
<imbrandon> anyone up for poking arround with a spec i just proposed https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/fubuntu-desktop
<Kyral> Fluxbox Based?
<Kyral> DAMN YOU! YOU TOOK MY IDEA!! *STAB!*
<Kyral> :P
<imbrandon> lol
<Kyral> Though I'd suggest mrxvt as a terminal
<imbrandon> umm help me with it then ;)
<Kyral> Can I poke it?
<imbrandon> sure
<imbrandon> i've even setup a repos and metapackage too
<imbrandon> if you wanna play 
<imbrandon> heh
<Kyral> Actually.....how do I register a distro...
<imbrandon> on launchpad ?
<imbrandon> not sure
<imbrandon> or i probbly would have done that too
<Kyral> b/c I'm thinking about creating my own distro and I wanna use LP for bug tracking :D
<imbrandon> not sure, poke arround ;)
<Kyral> was talking with the ArchLinux guys about it earlier
<Kyral> So am I allowed to "poke" the spec (how do I poke it anyway?)
<imbrandon> register and add comments i think, first spec i've posted actualy
<Kyral> I'm registered believe me :P
<imbrandon> whats your email?
<imbrandon> kyral@azuredreams.us
<imbrandon>     Chris Peterman
<imbrandon> kyralzbynek@iol.cz
<imbrandon>     Zbynek Kyral 
<Kyral> wtf
<Kyral> ...polish?
<imbrandon> thats from lp
<Kyral> no it ain't
<imbrandon> ummm where else would i get it
<Kyral> https://launchpad.net/people/kyral
<imbrandon> ;)
<imbrandon> there i added it to your que
<Kyral> Whoa when the heck did I become the maintainer of configure-debian?
<imbrandon> lol
<Kyral> oh "Uploaded" lol
* imbrandon wants an @ubuntu.com email lol
<jdub> GOOD MORNING FREEDOM LOVERS!
<Burgundavia> salut jdub, how are you today?
<bddebian> Hello jdub
<bddebian> What if we hate freedom but like Ubuntu? ;-P
<jdub> then you are dead to me
<jdub> Burgundavia: morning
<jdub> Burgundavia: good
<jsgotangco> good morning
<Burgundavia> 10x10 is marching across Oklahoma
<jdub> Burgundavia: today, in my country, we celebrate/mourn the unimaginable horrors of war
<Burgundavia> ah, we do that on November 11th
<bddebian> Hmm, I think I'm dead to most in here :-)
<jdub> we do that one too
<jsgotangco> bddebian: outlander...\
<bddebian> jsgotangco: Heh.  I'm out in the middle of some island in the boonies on this thing :-)
<ajmitch> jdub: you were up for the dawn parade then?
<jdub> ajmitch: no, actually, i just got up
<jsgotangco> oh my
<jsgotangco> i just remembered
<jsgotangco> its been a year since UDU
<Lathiat> you mean BZ?
<Burgundavia> been a long time eh?
<Lathiat> oh no
<Lathiat> your right
<Lathiat> nevermind me
<Lathiat> :)
<jsgotangco> Gallipoli
<keel> what (on earth) took ubuntu so long until it got a functional installation/live cd? why was it not possible to simply import knoppix technology? (i am not complaining or rhetoricizing, i really am very much interested in understanding what is that makes such cooperation impossible even in the world of open source.)
<keel> why do i get this feeling that most other (non-knoppixbased) distros try to reinvent the wheel (when it comes to cd lives), and very much less successfully at that.
<keel> s/\./\?/
<keel> Lure: do you prefer that i paste my questions again for you, since you've just come?
<Lure> keel: yes please
<keel> Lure: and, btw, what is .si?!
<infinity> keel: Erm, we prefer that you don't whine in here in the first place.
<Lure> keel: Slovenia
<infinity> keel: This is not a discussion forum, it's a development co-ordination channel.
<keel> what (on earth) took ubuntu so long until it got a functional installation/live cd? why was it not possible to simply import knoppix technology? (i am not complaining or rhetoricizing, i really am very much interested in understanding what is that makes such cooperation impossible even in the world of open source.)
<keel> why do i get this feeling that most other (non-knoppixbased) distros try to reinvent the wheel (when it comes to cd lives), and very much less successfully at that.
<keel> infinity: do i really look like whining?
<zakame> hi
<infinity> keel: Well, you're asking questions that you know won't be answered, so it hardly seems relevant to development.
<infinity> keel: We do things differently.  We always have.  We like our LiveCD.  It works for us.  We're not switching to knoppix's methods.  The end.
<keel> infinity: my question may be quite "higher level", but is very much related to ubuntu development.
<Lure> keel: I though that you have some concrete questions - your's is more a philosophical and is has to do with freedom to innovate
<keel> infinity: no, really! i never thought my question was unanswearable. i just thought i didn't know the answers and thought it was time for me to finally ask for them.
<keel> Lure: i see. it's a matter of variation. i then agree.
<infinity> keel: Note that "providing answers to your burning questions" has nothing to do with development.
<keel> infinity: is ubuntu's a better approach?
<infinity> keel: Saying "guys, I have some great ways to improve the LiveCD and how it runs/installs, here are some patches" would.
<infinity> keel: I tend to prefer Ubuntu's LiveCD, but I take part in building it, so I may be biased.
<keel> infinity: you use this channel only as a tool for development?
<Lure> keel: why do you think things has to be done like others are doing - I started to participate in this great community because their way is innovation by itself and because it is very easy to contribute
<Lure> keel: and yes, this channel is meant to be for real development issues
<keel> infinity: anyway, i am not against innovation (or attempts to innovate). i only wonder why not using already existing technologies, until ours is ready
<keel> Lure: ^
<keel> Lure, infinity: then again, what do you think the best channel would be for this kind of a discussion?
<infinity> keel: Sometimes reinventing the wheel is cleaner and easier than shoehorning your distribution into someone else's build process.
<infinity> keel: #ubuntu would be fine, or the sounder@lists.ubuntu.com mailing list...
* infinity isn't sure if there's really an IRC equivalent to sounder.
<crimsun> #ubuntu-offtopic
<keel> infinity: i agree, i was just not sure this was what ubuntu was doing (having another vision, wanting to begin it from scratch); however, i am not sure it is impossible to use knoppix's technology only temporarily, until ours becomes acceptable (as it is now).
<keel> infinity: what is "sounder"?
<keel> crimsun, keel: oh, "sounder" is some sort of mailing list equivalent to "#ubuntu-offtopic"?
<infinity> "sounder" isn't really "offtopic", per se (though it can be), it's about "sounding off", a good place to bounce your ideas and criticisms off other people without disrupting the general flow of a development list that may not feel the urge to argue that day.
<dholbach> good morning
<janimo> morning dholbach
<dholbach> heya janimo
* StevenK waves to dholbach
<dholbach> janimo: how is xubuntu looking for release?
<dholbach> StevenK: how are you?
<janimo> dholbach: still things to fix and move to main
<StevenK> dholbach: At the moment - aching, since I just came back from the gym.
<janimo> the gtk only stuff mostly
<janimo> otherwise ok
<dholbach> StevenK: hope you're better in a bit :-)
<dholbach> janimo: i'll look into goffice today - on first glance, it looked reasonable, but I want to test it and poke it a bit more
<dholbach> janimo: promise :)
<janimo> dholbach: thanks, when done, Gauvain will post a patch for gnumeric :)
<dholbach> i thought so :)
<janimo> dholbach: do you know whether g-s-t upstream plans a new release? or how responsive is generally?
<dholbach> um... not responsive
<janimo> there are some debian/patches which lok generoc enough that they could use them
<janimo> figured, he did not answer my gtk only request of 3 weeks ago :)
<dholbach> yeah, he's bug contact for it as well, so he knows about ubuntu patches
<dholbach> I guess he's just busy with a lot of other things
<janimo> yup
<janimo> do you know if abiword 2.4.4 is planned for dapper?
<dholbach> yeah planned, but info on the uvf bug missing
<dholbach> janimo: hmm, in my opinion there are a bunch of unnecessary changes in there (re goffice patch)
<dholbach> janimo: I just had to 'update' the patch because debian did a couple of changes in the meantime and I'd like to keep the delta smaller if possible, so we don't cry every few merges with Debian
<dholbach> janimo: I'll follow up on the bug report
<pitti> Good morning!
<sivang> morning pitti , dholbach 
<ajmitch> morning pitti 
<pitti> hi ajmitch
<pitti> hey sivang
<sivang> hey ajmitch 
<dholbach> hi sivang
<dholbach> heya pitti
* pitti hugs dholbach
<dholbach> hey mvo!
<dholbach> how are y'all?
<mvo> hey dholbach
<sivang> mvo: morning
<mvo> sivang: good morning!
* sivang hugs mvo 
<sivang> mvo: how are you today? :-)
<sivang> mvo: had a chance to read my comments for malone #40802 ?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40802 in gnome-system-tools "in users-admin user privileges there are 3 modem entries" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40802
<sivang> mvo: also, me and slomo worked to improve my packaging for HUB, which is based on gdebi's packaging. We fixed some mostly blue print stuff that is not required for a py package, however I found out that both my pkg and the current gdebi one have this intltool die out on line 1069:
<sivang> mvo: Died at /usr/bin/intltool-merge line 1069, <PO_FILE> line 3619.
<sivang> mvo: any idea what causes this?
<mvo> sivang: interessting, I haven't noticed. what command causes it?
<sivang> mvo: well, I reckon those the:
<sivang> os.system("intltool-merge -d po data/upbackup.desktop.in"\
<sivang>                        " build/upbackup.desktop")
<sivang> os.system("intltool-merge -d po data/uprestore.desktop.in"\
<sivang>                        " build/uprestore.desktop")
<sivang> two invocations we have in the setup.py script. 
<sivang> if dh_* calls intltool I wouldn't have an idea , so I can guess only those two make intltool die at some point. One assumtion that comes to mind is that build/* does not exist in certain point which make it break
<sivang> mvo: oops, replace those with gdebi'd data ;-)
<mvo> sivang: but when you run it by hand everything is fine?
<sivang> mvo: Yes, IIRC
<sivang> mvo: (it was late last night :-p)
<sivang> mvo: you have one .xml.in entry, and one desktop.in entry in gdebi
<sivang> (to remind)
<carlos> doko: hi, around?
<mvo> sivang: thanks I have seen it now too. its because the build/ dir is missing in the arch-build run (first setup.py clean --all is called). but it dosnt matter because when setup.py is run again with build as argument the dir is created. the fix is to check what argument is setup.py called with
<sivang> mvo: I see, I had seen it works anyways (that is there are resulting translation merged files in build) but thought to notify you anyways , I hope I was not bugging :-)
<mvo> sivang: no, that was fine, its good to know about stuff like this, sometimes it harmless, but sometimes it serious :)
<sivang> mvo: oh, and slomo recommended to remove the arch-build target, so I did so. I did not understand why it's there or what was its purpose. So I left only binary-arche and made it empty (moved stuff there to binary-indep) as this is a platform independent package.
<sivang> mvo: package seem to build fine and work without arch-build as well, so I assumed it's okay.
* sivang hopes this is not mandatory for the buildds to be happy or something.
<mvo> sivang: I use arch-build to build directly out of my bzr source tree, its more a helper and not required
<sivang> mvo: ah, I see , thanks for the calrification , it all makes sense now. (so arch is in the meaning of Arch RCS)
<mvo> sivang: yes. it creates a clean tarball from the current tree, builds etc
<sivang> mvo: cool, thanks :)
<Tonio_> hello everyone
<Tonio_> pitti: ping ?
<pitti> Hi Tonio_ 
<Tonio_> pitti: hey ;)
<Tonio_> pitti: I was just trying to configure a printer with cups on a fresh beta install, and I'm getting a prompt for login and password in the web interface
<Tonio_> I have a big emergency since I got water in my apartment all the night and I really need to print :)
<pitti> Tonio_: oh, did you? surprisingly, this was broken until recently
<pitti> Tonio_: use gnome-cups-manager
<Tonio_> pitti: is that a known problem and is there a quick fix on it ? I couldn't find a bug on launchpad concerning this problem
<Tonio_> pitti: gnome-cups-manager works ?
<pitti> Tonio_: should
<Tonio_> ok
<pitti> Tonio_: also, you can reactivate the web interface with sudo adduser cupsys shadow
<pitti> Tonio_: (see README.Debian)
<Tonio_> I will thanks
<pitti> ogra: hm, does the AE still work for you with kernel .21? Seems to be broken for me
<Tonio_> pitti: fyi, the web interface works, but I am prompted to add username and password while validating the driver choice
<Tonio_> appart from that the web interface works nicelly
<Tonio_> that's why I don't understand
<Tonio_> problem with sudo or something ?
<pitti> Tonio_: no, you need to authenticate as a printer admin to do printer administration :)
<pitti> Tonio_: i. e. you need to enter user/pwd of someone who is in the 'lpadmin' group
<Tonio_> pitti: hum, seems like I'm stupid this morning ;)
<Tonio_> pitti: many thanks !
<pitti> Tonio_: no worries :) btw, this is an #ubuntu matter
<Tonio_> pitti: true, sorry
<doko> carlos: pong
<carlos> doko: did you see the bug about oo.org's .po being broken again?
<carlos> I hadn't time to debug it, I'm asking just in case you know anything else
<doko> not yet
<pitti> hi carlos 
<carlos> pitti: hi
<carlos> doko: ok
<pitti> carlos: KDE import is still not loving you?
<carlos> pitti: I did a bunch of fixes for dapper language packs, but a database lock broke the exports, it should work today
<carlos> pitti: remaining ones were imported last Saturday
<pitti> cool
<pitti> I'll watch out for this afternoon's report
<carlos> Number of PO files to export: 27775
<carlos> that's the amount of .po files we have now for language packs
<carlos> vs. Number of PO files to export: 15049 we had on latest export
<pitti> carlos: hm, number of po files isn't displayed in my statistics
<pitti> but tat looks impressive
<carlos> pitti: that's KDE  ;-)
<carlos> and I'm sure we are still missing some translation domains to be set as part of language packs
<pitti> hi slomo
<slomo> hi pitti :)
<G0SUB_> is there any spec for the Ubuntu SAMBA config tool (SoC)?
<G0SUB_> or, can I write a spec for that?
<stub> Launchpad will be going down in just over 45 minutes at 10:00 UTC for its regular code update. Estimated downtime is 15 minutes.
<infinity> G0SUB_: If you write a spec for it, I'd like to read it before you propose it "officially".l
<janimo> Mithrandir, infinity: do you know why last xubuntu daily live is from Apr 20?
<infinity> janimo: If I had to guess, I'd say I haven't added it to little crontab.  Let me look.
<G0SUB_> infinity: sure. that'd be great
<infinity> janimo: s/little/little's/
<infinity> janimo: Fixed.  Do you want me to sping a set manually for you now?  (dailies would have built about 20 minutes ago, according to cron)
<G0SUB_> infinity: should I mail you the draft spec?
<infinity> G0SUB_: Please.
<janimo> infinity: yes, thanks
<G0SUB_> infinity: okay, great. FYI I would like to write that tool as a part of the GOOG SoC
<janimo> so will live and install both be made arounf this hour daily?
<infinity> janimo: Yup.
<Kamion> yeah, I'd added it to the crontab in arch but probably forgot to roll that out on little after the beta cycle finished
<infinity> Kamion: Yeah, I noticed the copy in /etc was correct.
<infinity> Still, blame me, since I was the one that set it up initially. :)
<s3xt0y> startkeylogger DCC SEND [myg0t] OWNSYOU
<G0SUB_> ?
<infinity> I should have added it, commented-out to the (at the time) disabled crontab.
<s3xt0y> startkeylogger DCC SEND [myg0t] OWNSYOU
<dholbach> ogra: I noticed there's a new denemo version in incoming - isn't that some edubuntu stuff you use?
<infinity> janimo: Built and published; sorry for the oversight.
<janimo> infinity: np, thank you
<Kagou> hi
<stub> Launchpad will be going down in 15 minutes at 10:00 UTC for its regular code update. Estimated downtime is 15 minutes.
<ogra> dholbach, yes, thanks, will look
<ogra> pitti, i dont have .21 yet
<ogra> will try
<ogra> hmm, intresting
<ogra>  apt-get remove openoffice.org-core
<ogra> removes all parts of openoffice
<ogra> but installs all openoffice-help files ???
<pitti> ogra: because you have language-support-* installed
<ogra> ah
<pitti> ?
<ogra> looked a bit weird 
<pitti> ok
<ogra> mvo, ping
<mvo> ogra: pong
<ogra> mvo, did annything in apt change recently ?
<mvo> l
<mvo> not a lot
<mvo> why?
<ogra> have a look at the last lines here http://librarian.launchpad.net/2322385/messages
<ogra> it belongs to bug 41088
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 41088 in ltsp "beta install cd can't complete LTSP build chroot" [Major,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/41088
<mvo> seb128: go on vacation ;)
<ogra> and i have no explanation for it
<seb128> mvo: nice to see you too :p
<mvo> seb128: a BIG hug from dholbach too :)
<seb128> where is he? ;)
<seb128> hug him for me too :)
<mvo> seb128: on my phone
<seb128> lol
<seb128> you guys never stop calling each other :p
<mvo> seb128: get a headset and we start to call you too
<mvo> ogra: it looks like gpg is missing on that install?
<seb128> mvo: ahah, no thank you :p
<jdub> mvo: you guys sipping or skyping?
<ogra> mvo, hmm
<ogra> shouldnt be
<mvo> ogra: if it is there, please run -o Debug::gpgv=true
<ogra> phew
<mvo> jdub: sipping (ekiga) and using "real" phones, skype is non-free ;)
<ogra> that requires to rebuild ltsp and make a new iso
<jdub> and poo too
<mvo> ogra: is gpg there?
<ogra> it apparently doesnt happen if you run the script in a installed system
<ogra> i'll ask the user
<ogra> but since i didnt remove it and it worked before, it should be there
<mvo> ogra: please make him run the install with -o Debug::Acquire::gpgv=true?
<mvo> ogra: or the script under strace -f -e trace=execve 
<ogra> mvo, as i said that requires a lot of changes to ltsp to make sure this option is set in the installer
<ogra> (its the part that runs non interactive in the installer
<ogra> )
<Diziet> pitti: Do you have some kind of magic channel to Mozilla upstream ?
<pitti> Diziet: not really
<Diziet> I've been looking at the 30000-line diff between firefox 1.5.0.1 and 1.5.0.2 and I need to quiz them about it.
<pitti> Diziet: I'm on their security announce mailing list, but that's about it
<Diziet> Well, actually, what I want to know is WHAT WERE THEY THINKING ??
<pitti> 30Klines? ouch
<StevenK> That's what I was thinking.
<Robot101> I think you should hunt them down and go and stick a fork in their head. *prang*
<pitti> and much of it is actually changed code, not just s/1.5.0.1/1.5.0.2/ in docs and so on?
<StevenK> Not just a fork.
<Diziet> Does the security announce list have a different or supplementary list of changes, compared to what I can see on Burning Edge and in the official release notes ?
* StevenK finally gets something working and resists the urge to add the comment "make is my bitch"
<pitti> Diziet: no, recent messages just discussed some details of the MFSAs, but everythuing is on their web page now
<pitti> Diziet: there were no split out patches or so
<Diziet> I picked 3 random numbers in the range 0 to size-of-diff and looked at the changes at that line, and it seems to be full of stuff which is hard to justify.
<Diziet> Do you have access to the secret bug reports ?  Can you grant it to me ?
<Diziet> That might help.
<pitti> Diziet: no, unfortunately not
<Diziet> None of my three samples were traceable to a release notes entry or Burning Edge change description.
<pitti> Diziet: I can ask them to give access to me if you need to
<pitti> Diziet: yes, they didn't only fix security bugs, also 'normal' bugs
<Diziet> Yes, but Burning Edge lists supposedly the normal bugs they fix too.
<Diziet> I don't mind if they also fix stability problems etc.
<Diziet> Including a diff to the XForms code, which isn't even compiled, is just absurd.
<Diziet> At least, I think it's not compiled.
<Diziet> I don't have a built tree to hand right now to check.
<Diziet> And it takes about 15-20 mins to track down each one of these changes and then hit a dead end (though I'm getting faster at it with practice).
<pitti> argh, what giant waste of time :/
<Diziet> I was going to sample five or so and if they all turned out to be reasonable changes then deciding to put it into dapper would be easy.
<pitti> in the end we don't have much of a choice anyway
<Diziet> But after three, of which only one looks justifiable to me, I'm not so sure.
<Diziet> Well, yes.
<StevenK> We don't have a choice to punt it to Dapper since it fixes security problems?
<pitti> StevenK: applying security patches manually has turned out to not work at all
<pitti> StevenK: that's why we are more or less doomed to update to new upstream versions even for stable security updates
<Treenaks> So... when are we forking it?
<pitti> Treenaks: if you are able to and understand the code, we'll encourage you :)
<pitti> hey \sh 
<Treenaks> pitti: 2 words: Hazard pay.
* sivang thinks nobody can understand that code.
<\sh> moins :)
<pitti> sivang: well, it's just code, so given a large enough amount of time you can
<pitti> sivang: it's just awfully much code and it's not documented very well
<sivang> I see 
<sivang> Treenaks: let's do it ;-)
<sivang> </humor>
<Treenaks> sivang: OK. Drop the current codebase and rewrite in Perl or Python
<sivang> pitti: I once tried to under the xml dialect they use for the UI, not something to look at before you have lunch :)
<sivang> Treenaks: Python! Python! Python! :-)
<\sh> pitti: regarding...https://launchpad.net/bugs/40976 could we setup an update system for clamav for dapper? not doing the backport thing but rolling out real updates for this package>
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40976 in breezy-backports "Clamav backport" [Critical,In progress]  
<pitti> \sh: what's wrong with the backport approach?
<\sh> pitti: because I think that doing official updates or security updates for clamav is more confidence then pushing it through backports
<pitti> \sh: there are no official updates anyway, it's universe
<pitti> \sh: however, if someone comes along and wants to care for clamav, I don't see why we shouldn't do proper upgrades
<\sh> pitti: right, but we could do updates for this special package, because it's well known and widley spread :) and I'm starting to care about packages after dapper release and after I know what happens next here with my job L:)
<Keybuk> pitti: I'm getting a "multiple ids" error for tcpick
<pitti> Keybuk: where?
<Keybuk> pitti: trying to do the sync
<Keybuk> I'm going to guess this means that the orig.tar.gz in Ubuntu doesn't match the one in Debian
<Keybuk> same for fcheck
<pitti> Keybuk: ouch, how evil
<Keybuk> and bsdgames :-/
<Keybuk> this is odd
<pitti> Keybuk: but our current tcpick version is not locally modified either
<Keybuk> this is why I'm confused
<Keybuk> nope, it has to be something else
<Keybuk> both files are identical
<Kinnison> Keybuk: different aliases, same content?
<Keybuk> Kinnison: why would there be different aliases
<Kinnison> there shouldn't be
<Keybuk> I'm getting this for a *lot* of packages
<Keybuk> has lp exploded?
<Kinnison> I think it's a bug in the uploader somewhere such that it sometimes accidentally duplicates aliases
<toresbe> Hello, I'd just like to know quickly how Ubuntu manages to shut down without sudo?
<Keybuk> toresbe: control message sent to gdm which is running as root anyway
<lifeless> toresbe: very fast if you use the power switch
<lifeless> oh, quickly how, not how quickly ;)
<Kinnison> Keybuk: I believe that it's harmless in terms of archive consistency but annoying in terms of tools, I've not been able to track it down yet
<Keybuk> Kinnison: like I said, it's not sometimes from what I can tell
<Keybuk> I can't see a bsdgames upload since the big sync
<Kinnison> might have been a gina hiccough then
<toresbe> lifeless: I've been rooted, lost sudo, and have no physical access. I need it off, quick. :)
<toresbe> Keybuk: Do you know how I can send that message? 
<toresbe> I know this is a user question, and I'm sorry for that - but the people in #ubuntu seem to have no clue
<Keybuk> toresbe: hmm?  just System -> Log Out should be fine
<toresbe> Keybuk: I have no physical access
<Keybuk> is there an X session logged in?
<Keybuk> (on a physical display on that box)
<toresbe> yes, and I've started screen from it
<Keybuk> vnc into that X session
<toresbe> hmm
<toresbe> I'll just create an SSH tunnel that tunnels XDMCP and X:1
<Keybuk> gdm-signal --halt && gnome-session-save --kill
<Keybuk> should do the trick
<toresbe> ** (gdm-signal:12417): WARNING **: Failed to authenticate with GDM
<toresbe> damnit
<toresbe> I started that session from xinit! ARGH
<Keybuk> yeah, you need to be in an on-console X session started by gdm
<Keybuk> otherwise you don't have permission
<Keybuk> we're not in the habit of leaving big security holes like that ;)
<toresbe> hehe, good on you for that, I guess.
<toresbe> god damnit.
<pitti> toresbe: do you want a command to crash your kernel?
<Keybuk> at this point, my suggestion would be to find someone who has physical access to the box, and get them to yank the power cord
<pitti> toresbe: it's not a clean shutdown, but at least it'll stop your box
<Keybuk> pitti: I'm worried that you know one and haven't told us :)
<pitti> Keybuk: well, USN is pending, BenC needs to upload new kernels
<pitti> they are prepared, I think he just uploaded to the wrong queue
<Keybuk> pitti: did I ever mention that you scare me sometimes? :)
<pitti> MUHAHAHAHA
<pitti> :)
* ogra shudders
<maswan> any chance of these being done by tomorrow? (just egoistical, we already have an outage window at work due to file server hw maintenance)
<toresbe> pitti: You win!
<pitti> toresbe: /msg'ed you
<pitti> toresbe: glad to know that I can be useful sometimes :)
<neuralis> pitti: i'm curious. care to share?
<innocent_bystand> ip ro get 224.0.0.1 iif eth0
<Keybuk> eww
<pitti> but don't try this at home, you have been warned
<ogra> pitti, if your soulutions just wouldnt be that definite
* neuralis is amused
<Mithrandir> pitti: yup, worked fine.
* Mithrandir presses the reset button on the test box
<toresbe> hahaha
<Keybuk> pitti: oh wow
<Keybuk> it works as non-root too
<Keybuk> that's just totally evil
<\sh> I hope the kernel is asap in the update queue :) 
<toresbe> pitti: You saved my day.
<pitti> Keybuk: yes, that's the whole point of it :) (non-root)
<Keybuk> netlink bug?
<neuralis> pitti: this is a bug in the vanilla kernel, or our kernels?
<pitti> neuralis: http://www.kernel.org/git/?p=linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git;a=commit;h=d2c962b8530b84f4e035df8ade7e35f353a57cbe
<pitti> neuralis: upstream, fixed recently
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: crashing the kernel as root is significantly less impressive.
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: crashing the kernel as root is easy, but still somewhat annoyin
<neuralis> pitti: looking. neat :)
<Keybuk> dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/kmem
<Keybuk> is a favourite :p
<neuralis> Keybuk: that's just kinky.
<neuralis> pitti: from a quick look, it looks like all of 2.6.x is affected. is that right?
<pitti> neuralis: I didn't dig into history very far; knowing that warty is affected was enough
<neuralis> :/
<StevenK> Ahhh, the ip r g multicast bug.
<pitti> well, a local DoS is not that exciting, we fix half a dozen of them with every security update
<StevenK> Herbert (Xu) was talking about that about a week ago.
<pitti> a simple fork bomb works just equally well, I'd guess
<maswan> pitti: well, you can somewhat help that on multiuser systems with nproc limits etc, right?
<Manny> hi
<StevenK> Keybuk: Thanks for the sync.
<neuralis> pitti: well, right. but you can defend against a forkbomb with proprely set limits, whereas you can't help this except with fascist permissions.
<pitti> maswan: it just increases the effort you have to spend on fork bombs
<toresbe> pitti: Do I get to tell others the command?
<Manny> is Dapper+1 development in already progress?
<Manny> s^in already^already in^
<neuralis> Manny: specs are being accepted on launchpad, sure.
<StevenK> Manny: Sort of?
<Keybuk> StevenK: you're not actually going to get one atm -- lp appears to have broken
<pitti> toresbe: it's not the end of the world, but please refrain from giving it to every script kiddie that crosses your way :0
<maswan> neuralis: chmod go-x /sbin/ip ? :)
<StevenK> Manny: People are talking about it, and ideas are being thrown around, but there's no uploads (or archive for it) yet.
<toresbe> pitti: Of course. Thank you again.
<StevenK> Keybuk: Wheee. :-)
<Manny> StevenK, I'd like to propose packaging of the bioapi/pam-bioapi packages, but I don't want to mess around myself because there are people who know what they're doing instead of randomly hacking on Makefiles
<Manny> StevenK, ok
<StevenK> Manny: Could I suggest getting it packaged for Debian and for Dapper+1 Ubuntu can just sync?
<Manny> StevenK, good idea.
<MidMark> Hi to all, is there a plan to include security updates (1.5.0.2) for firefox and thunderbird?
<MidMark> I mean include in dapper before release
<pitti> MidMark: yes, we most certainly will
<MidMark> pitti: thanx
<StevenK> Hrrrm. LP does seem to be labouring tonight.
<Keybuk> Kamion: ping?
<zul> heylo
<Keybuk> *blink*
<Keybuk> so I think launchpad helpfully just tipped my entire upload queue into failed with no error
<pygi> Mithrandir: poke
<Mithrandir> pygi: ouch
<ogra> Keybuk, nice :)
<pygi> =P
<pygi> Mithrandir: have time to talk? :)
<Mithrandir> pygi: sure
<pygi> the LDAP thingy in Edubuntu Edgy
* Keybuk prepares the runes and cauldron to summon the dark spirits of archive understanding (Kinnison)
<joelbryan> hello, who can I contact about Google SoC?
<Keybuk> JaneW
<ogra> Mithrandir, i guess he means the network auth spec :)
<joelbryan> I mean Ubuntu SoC
<JaneW> yes me
<Mithrandir> ogra: yeah, I guess so.
<pygi> ogra, Mithrandir: yes, that =P
<joelbryan> hi, JaneW, are those projects already taken?
<pygi> Mithrandir: do we have the specs done for that already or?
<JaneW> joelbryan:  nothing's taken yet, we are still gathering ideas, and applicatiosn start on 1 May.
<joelbryan> JaneW: like the .deb package maker, Simple Apt Proxy, Migration Assistant?
<Mithrandir> pygi: it's approved so yes, it should be ready to implement.  If we want it for eft we might want to review it a bit, though.
<joelbryan> wow, 5 days!
<joelbryan> alot of time
<pygi> Mithrandir: ok, I'll be glad if I can help...now, who would/is work(ing) on implementing it?
<JaneW> joelbryan: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2006-April/000070.html
<Mithrandir> pygi: nobody is at the moment.
<Mithrandir> pygi: it's my spec so I would be the one to work on it.
<ogra> Mithrandir, SoC it :)
<JaneW> if there are appropriate ubuntu/eft specs, please add a link to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GoogleSoC2006
<ogra> (if you find a skilled person that is)
<JaneW> Mithrandir: yes it's worth a try
<JaneW> we should put as much as possible on that list
<pygi> joy, now I have to choose will I work on this or s-c-p :-P
<pygi> that is not a good choice =P
<ogra> JaneW, that requires a very high skill level 
<JaneW> we didn;t have clear specs last time and that added to the difficulty in getting them done well
<ogra> pygi, why ? 
<pygi> ogra: well, because I can't do both for edgy =P
<ogra> whats wrong with working on s-c-o
<ogra> err
<pygi> well, nothing =P
<ogra> s-c-p
<ogra> yeah time is short ... you'll need to pick
<joelbryan> JaneW: is there any qualifications for it?
<Keybuk> ok, no syncs for anybody today
<pygi> JaneW: Documentation cannot be accepted for SoC, altought it's puted on that page...also, we WILL HAVE better docs...we are writing book, right? :P
<pygi> ogra: that's what I am talking about
<pygi> ogra, Mithrandir: what is of higher priority for us for edgy?
<Mithrandir> what's s-c-p?
<JaneW> pygi: no the SoC projects HAVE to be coding projects, that what the program is about (by definition)
<JaneW> joelbryan: qualifications?
<ogra> Mithrandir, student-control-panel for ltsp
<pygi> JaneW: I know...but look here :P https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GoogleSoC2006
<JaneW> pygi: I will review the list soon, right now it is in brain-dump mode
<joelbryan> JaneW: yeah, like who are the ones be chosen to join it?
<ogra> pygi, from an edubuntu POV both are important for me ... but there are more people, so if you pick one, we might find someone else to do the other :)
<JaneW> joelbryan: the people who submit the best applications
<joelbryan> kewl
<Mithrandir> pygi: I think NetworkAuth is way more important; it's not just important for one derivative, but for all derivatives.
<Mithrandir> pygi: NA might be harder, though.
<pygi> ogra: anyone currently working on s-c-p?
<joelbryan> JaneW: is there any criteria for the best applications?
<ogra> pygi, also s-c-p is edubuntu specific, the network auth spec is intresting for {edu,ku,xu,u}buntu
<pygi> Mithrandir: harder means nothing, as long as I can dedicate all my free time to it
<ogra> pygi, nope
<pygi> ogra: urrghh...
<Keybuk> damnit, I can't put off looking at the n-m bug list any longer
<pygi> ogra: who developed first version?
<Keybuk> oh, wait!  I still have some other stuff to do \o/
<ogra> and its a good project to start with, the basic code is already there, its just lacking features
<ogra> pygi, me
<pygi> ogra: ah :)
<JaneW> joelbryan: there are good pointers here http://drupal.org/node/59037
* pygi is reclutant on what to work on :-/
<joelbryan> JaneW: I made some app yesterday UbuntuCommercialSupport, and today UbuntuCommonHooker, who can I contact about it?
<pygi> ogra: what features exactly is s-c-p lacking?
<ogra> it currently offers only to log out the students on the clients and shows their processlist
<ogra> a sane way must be found to:
<JaneW> joelbryan: I don;t know what are they and what do they do?
<ogra> * kill a process of a specific student
<Keybuk> Ubuntu doesn't use Common Hookers
<Keybuk> we only use the best
<ogra> * vnc to the students desktop with one click
<ogra> * log out all students
<ogra> * execute an app on all sutents desktops
<ogra> * blank/lock all students sessions
<ogra> * optionally shut down all thin clients attached to the server currently
<_ion> * send dirty messages to all the screens
<ogra> pick one or two features and implement them ;) 
<pygi> ah, I did something like that few years ago ... was written in C tho :-/
<JaneW> Keybuk: bwahaha
<joelbryan> JaneW: it's in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/, the UbuntuCommercialSupport is an interface to provide paid support options to canonical with a credit card payment method, and the UbuntuCommonHooker, installs a certain package when a certain file is feed into it.
<pygi> _ion: hehe :)
<pygi> ogra: I'll see what I can do about it...
<pygi> ogra: some of the things you mentioned should be rather trivial to implement
<ogra> there is the TeacherPet spec wikipage, where people have put suggestions
<joelbryan> JaneW: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuLiveChatSupport, UbuntuCommercialSupport, SensibleIRCHandler, UbuntuHomeBackup, UbuntuCommonHooker
<ogra> none of these are trivial to implement *right* 
<ogra> all of them are trivial to implement ...
<pygi> just no time =P
<ogra> the emphasis is on the *right* :)
<pygi> :)
<ogra> i.e. getting vnc to run in a safe way and having a usable speed then is a big one ...
* pygi agrees
<ogra> (just installing xvnc and attach it unsafe to the users DISPLAY on the client ios trivial though)
<pygi> well, but we don't want unsafe things =P
<ogra> (as the code on the client side is (a simple wrapper))
<ogra> exactly
<JaneW> joelbryan: you should probably post to the ubuntu-devel mailing list asking for testing and feedback
<pygi> ogra: ok, I hope we'll be able to get 0.0.1.2 at least for edgy :)
<ogra> and thats why i havent worked on it more yet ... the base is there and usable, but enhancing it the right way will need some good brains and concepts :)
<pygi> ogra: no worries...if I could just get enough time :-/
<pygi> Mithrandir: please gimme spec for network auth?
<StevenK> pygi: I think sabdfl has also been asked to provide 26 hours a day ...
<pygi> StevenK: hehe :)
<Mithrandir> pygi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkAuthentication
<Mithrandir> StevenK: just 26?
<pygi> Mithrandir: hehe, agreed, even more =P
<pygi> oki, I'll look into it as soon as I get back
<ogra> pygi, that "even more" was only for empolyees :)
<pygi> ogra: I believe we'll have one or two more functions in s-c-p for edgy
<joelbryan> can someone provide me a link of ubuntu-devel mailing list?
<neuralis> joelbryan: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel
<joelbryan> thanks
<ogra> pygi, that'd be really cool, a lot of teachers will love you for that
<pygi> neuralis: you were mentioned at CLUC/DORS :)
<neuralis> pygi: i was?
<pygi> neuralis: yea :) will tell you later, lemme go grab a lunch
<neuralis> sure.
<StevenK> Mithrandir: :-P
<Kamion> Keybuk: yo. er, yeah, I probably should have told you that syncs are hosed
<Kamion> Keybuk: https://launchpad.net/products/qprocd/+bug/40958
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40958 in qprocd "all sync attempts fail" [Major,Confirmed]  
<Kamion> ah, you saw that already
<dholbach> Diziet: maybe you could into bug 41103 later on? I assigned it to you, the bug suggests, it might be due to the pango changes - according to gucharmap bug 41149 might have the same reason
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 41103 in pango1.0 "Can't change fonts" [Major,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/41103
<ogra> mvo, the error from before (with the ltsp chroot) seems to be related to the HW (install works flawless, just not on two specific laptops the user tried) ... so it cant be apt 
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 41149 in gucharmap "Crash when mousescrolling down Latin characters" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/41149
<dholbach> Diziet: we first thought it might be gnome bug 331833, but that issue was remedied by a newer dejavu
<Ubugtu> Gnome bug 331833 in general "Pango crashes on DejaVu Sans and specific glyphs" [Major,Resolved: notgnome]  http://bugs.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=331833
<pygi> neuralis: you were mentioned about that system you were working on/you are working on for a hospital
<neuralis> pygi: pm please, this is off-topic here.
<mvo> ogra: ok, thanks
<ogra> i guess the gpg installation fails before already and gpg isnt in /target
<ogra> but i'll get a set of installer logs to find out
<Diziet> dholbach: Thanks, yes, I'm looking at it now.
<dholbach> Diziet: Thanks.
<Diziet> What makes anyone think 41103 and 41149 are related ?
<Diziet> 41103 is probably my fault somehow.
<bddebian> Howdy folks
<HiddenWolf> Ligt het aan mij of heeft iemand in dapper de alacarte en ubuntu-logotjes in de menu's verwisselt?
<HiddenWolf> IE, alacarte naast Applications en ubuntu naast alacarte
<HiddenWolf> whoops, wrong channel
<HiddenWolf> Sorry guys
<HiddenWolf> Is it me, or are the alacarte and ubuntu icons in the panel switched?
<Amaranth> hehe
<ogra> the distributor-logo ? 
<HiddenWolf> yes
<Amaranth> getting a tango foot for the distributor-logo?
<ogra> thats broken atm iirc
<_ion> I have a tango foot there as well. :-)
<Amaranth> alacarte uses gnome-main-menu for it's icon
<Amaranth> dholbach is fixing
<dholbach> it's fixed already
<Amaranth> ah, yay
<tritium> hi dholbach :)
<dholbach> install new tango-icon-theme :)
<dholbach> hi tritium
<Amaranth> latest tango-icon-theme doesn't include distributor-logo?
<dholbach> it does, but it uses ours
<Amaranth> yeah, i just made tangerine include it
<Amaranth> as a copy of tangerine's start-here icon
<zakame> hi all
<Amaranth> hey zakame
<zakame> huhu Amaranth :)
<Diziet> dholbach: What makes anyone think 41103 and 41149 are related ?  I can't see any indication in those bug reports that they might be ...
<dholbach> Diziet: Ok, I'll double check. Does the pango bug alone make sense and could be related to the changes which got in in the last two revisions?
<Diziet> Yes, the pango bug makes sense.
<Diziet> Although I'm currently trying to view some screenshots from those forum links (to check that my symptoms are what people are complaining about) and the forums don't seem to like me because I'm not registered or logged in.
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: Just preparing to push some a11y fixes, is it ok to mention 2 malone bugs in the same dot point in a changelog entry?
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: sure, nothing parses those files (yet)
<TheMuso> Righto.
<TheMuso> Thanks.
<_ion> This deskbar thing is really neat. I wish there were a standalone version of it, so i wouldn't have to run gnome-panel.
<pygi> _ion: code one? :)
<pygi> develop*
<tseng> Launchbox?
<tseng> http://developer.imendio.com/wiki/GNOME_Launch_Box
<_ion> W: Unable to locate package launchbox
<_ion> Thanks for the tip anyway. I'll try that later, and package it if i like it.
<tseng> its not exactly the same thing, but similar ideas
<jdub> i'm sure you could write an alternative ui for deskbar without a lot of hassle
<bddebian> Heya tseng.  What you don't hang out with us in #u-motu anymore? :-)
<jdub> and use all of the same infrastructure
<jdub> easy to do with python :)
<tseng> beagle-search (and kerry) should also show applications now
<tseng> so should cover most of what deskbar does
<Diziet> Good grief, I have to read a huge pile of forum policies through a tiny window before I can see these images.
<tseng> bddebian: i'm right there?
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: http://www.themuso.id.au/ubuntu/casper - Ready to be merged.
<bddebian> tseng: Yeah but you don't talk to me anymore.. ;-P
<Diziet> No, it has an unreasonable bit about future changes so I can't sign it.
<Diziet> Is anyone here already registered with the Ubuntu forums ?  I would like to view the image http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8696&d=1145844844 referred to in the thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=164990.
<Treenaks> Diziet: http://bugmenot.com/view.php?url=ubuntuforums.org
<Diziet> Treenaks: You don't expect me to use bugmenot to break into an Ubuntu site on work time, surely ?
<_ion> Break?
<Diziet> Particularly after having read the Ts&Cs.
<Treenaks> Diziet: Well, you could kick them into using launchpad signons
<ogra> Diziet, it shows a Nimbus Roman in the selector, but a vera sans in the preview
<Diziet> Can you save the image and put it somewhere I can see it, please ?
<ogra> Diziet, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/gnome-font-chooser.png
<Diziet> ogra: Thanks very much.
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: why did you remove the -s call from gct?
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: Because there is the possibility that the accessx applet will be added to the m1 and m2 profiles. When I was looking at the gconf data for that applet, I noticed that in the user's gconf directory, there are schemas assigned to the values for that applet. The --apply-schema flag is incompatible with -s. Getting the applet to show up in the profiles is still being worked on, and it is not drasstically important.
<ogra> are there still cases where we dont enable DMA during install ? 
<ogra> i have reports about installs taking etaernally long
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: uh, shouldn't schemas be in /usr/share somewhere?
<ogra> (while with the same CD on another machine it finished in normal (edubuntu == ~ 1-1.5h) time)
<dholbach> Kinnison: Have you planned g-p-m 2.14.2 at some stage? somebody said it'd contain some real icon theme lookup instead of shipping their own icons. I have some new icons for it and would prefer the icontheme way instead of patching uuencoded icons in, but I'd do the change if necessary.
<Keybuk> Kamion: yeah, I've left the queue of the ones that aren't hosed by the "multiple IDs" problem in an incoming directory for when that's fixed
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: I was wondering about that myself. But it seems that there is references to schemas in the user's gconf data. Take a look at /apps/panel/applets//apps/panel/applets/clock_screen0 for example.
<TheMuso> oops that should be /apps/panel/applets/clock_screen0
<Mithrandir> No value set for `/apps/panel/applets/clock_screen0'
<Mithrandir> :-)
<Kinnison> dholbach: I have almost finished preparing an upload of 2.14.2
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: Well, I think all panel applets are the same. Have a look at any of the files in ~/.gconf/apps/panel/applets
<dholbach> Kinnison: excellent news! do you know if the changelog/news file say anything about icon stuff?
<TheMuso> That is if you have any enabled/customized.
<Kinnison> dholbach: I can look in a bit for you
<Keybuk> Kamion, infinity: probably a good idea to establish some procedure stuff too -- like maybe marking requests in progress and assigning them to yourself if you've picked them up, otherwise we'll end up with dups in the queue (like the zope stuff :p)
<dholbach> Kinnison: if not, it's not terribly urgent, I'll have to look it up anyway.
* Kinnison is trying to investigate a soyuz hiccough
<dholbach> Kinnison: take your time.
* dholbach hugs kinnison
* Kinnison coughs and tastes a coppery tang
* Kinnison hates being ill
<infinity> Keybuk: Yeah, procedure sounds sane.
<infinity> Keybuk: I've always been a "seat-of-the-pants" procedure kinda guy, but in cases like this with a queue, it makes sense to establish something.
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: I can show you some if you like.
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: you mean the schema="/schemas/apps/panel/[..]  part?
<Kamion> Keybuk: I did the zope stuff ages ago and gave up on it :)
<bddebian> heh
<Keybuk> Kamion: heh, I did it again :p
<TheMuso> Mithrandir: Yeah. It seems that --apply-schema is needed to make that happen, which is incompatible with -s.
<Keybuk> (and it failed again :p)
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: hmm
<TheMuso> Anywa, I can revert it back if you prefer.
<ogra> Kamion, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/syslog the user tries to install on a laptop, apparently that system thinks its Jul 10th already and various things fail in the install ...
<Mithrandir> TheMuso: *shrug*; not that important to me, really.
<ogra> is there anything we can do from installer side to prevent that ? or do we rely on the fact that BIOS clocks are set half way right
<TheMuso> Righto.
<Kamion> ogra: 403
<TheMuso> It has been tested and does work.
<ogra> Kamion, fixed ... the weirdness starts at timestamp Jul 10 05:18:37
<Kamion> ogra: it just bitches a lot, but I don't see any actual failures?
<joelbryan> how about a completely beagle like app that uses standard unix grep, and doesn't use .NET
<ogra> gpg doesnt work in /target, so the ltsp chroot building fails
<Kamion> it's just tar complaining about the timestamps
<janimo> joelbryan: you mean like locate?
<ogra> Kamion, and ubuntu-keyring
<Kamion> ogra: ltsp should use the --ignore-time-conflict option
<ogra> hmm, k
<janimo> joelbryan: there is actually something more beagle like from what I heard sitting in REVU, called pinot/xapian
<Kamion> ogra: and ubuntu-keyring doesn't seem to fail, it just complains
<ogra> yep, i see
<Kamion> unless I'm reading this wrong
<ogra> W: GPG error: file: dapper Release: Unknown error executing gpgv
<ogra> W: You may want to run apt-get update to correct these problems
<ogra> thats what i get in the ltsp log
<joelbryan> there are hard time to include beagle, because of mono, i think
<ogra> which indeed fails then
<Kamion> ogra: are you using a non-default apt configuration?
<Kamion> we install an apt.conf.d file to make apt use gpgv --ignore-time-conflict throughout the install
<joelbryan> so I think, an alternative non mono app to beagle would be good
<ogra> Kamion, not to my knowledge its just using -y for apt-get
<Kamion> (it's installed in /target by base-installer)
<ogra> it also works from the same CD on another machine
<Kamion> ogra: you might want to check that that /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ file is there at that point, then
<ogra> ok
<bddebian> All hail sabdfl :-)
<pygi> bddebian: hehe :)
<ogra> but as i said, its caused by the time shift in any case ... it doesnt fail on a machine that has the right time in BIOS ... we should probably push the clock to the least possible date 
<ogra> i.e. at least the release date of the CD
<sabdfl> hey bddebian... last time I heard that expression it finished with "Macbeth"
<sabdfl> i want to mail an invitation to Kubuntu and KDE community members to come to LinuxTag on May 6 to chart the future of kubuntu, which mailing lists would you recommend?
<sabdfl> think it qualifies for -announce?
<ajmitch> I'd think so
<Amaranth> joelbryan: tracker
<sabdfl> then i need to put a more general introduction on it
<pygi> sabdfl: why not to -devel as well?
<sfllaw> sabdfl: Beware the Thane of Fief.
<sabdfl> pygi: will do
<joelbryan> Amaranth: yup, its completely similar to what beagle does, but not using mono
<Amaranth> joelbryan: and also much less mature
<ogra> sabdfl, probably a transalted version to the german community would be a good idea
<ogra> transpeppered as well :P
<joelbryan> err, yeah! I can do some codes with it.
<Kamion> ogra: I'd rather not do that as long as we still have failures when the time is wrong, since we'll just be hiding problems
<ogra> Kamion, right ...
<Amaranth> ogra: I prefer transmarinated
<ogra> heh
<sabdfl> ogra: will you translate and forward?
<ogra> sabdfl, i can, sure :)
<sabdfl> ogra: coordinate with riddell please
<ogra> will do
<Riddell> ddddkkkkk
<ogra> ?
<ogra> Riddell, thats hard to coordinate :) 
<joelbryan> Amaranth: who made the ideas for Ubuntu SoC?
<bddebian> sabdfl: :-)
<Amaranth> joelbryan: random people
<nomed> joelbryan: you may want to take a look to xapian
<pygi> joelbryan: everyone can contribute to list of ideas
<Kamion> Riddell: oh, I was looking for you earlier, but I've already started the work now so I might as well finish - writing a crash handler for ubiquity-frontend-kde that pops up a window with the traceback that you can copy into a bug report, to match the one I wrote for gtk earlier
<Amaranth> whoever put edubuntu documentation as a summer of code project: documentation work is not allowed
<nomed> it does exactly what you would .. and you can even use it as cgi scripts
<Amaranth> you have to write some code :)
<ogra> Amaranth, i didnt :) 
* ogra goes looking
<pygi> Amaranth: yes. we know...JaneW will remove it when she checks all
<pygi> somebody added that =P
<pygi> and anyway, the book for the Edubuntu is on the way
<pygi> and should be finished by May, 10
<Amaranth> cool
* Amaranth wants to start on "willow package and configuration utility"
<Riddell> Kamion: that's a cool idea
<Amaranth> but i should probably make sure it's accepted and such first :)
<pygi> Amaranth: nice :)
<ogra> pygi, in any case we'll have highvoltages getting started paper (i even already saw translations) that should cover the basics even if you book isnt ready before eft :)
<pygi> ogra: no worries...the book will be ready =P
* highvoltage will work some more on that tonight
<Amaranth> hehe, some of the things on this page are crack
<ogra> yep, but no rush, we have a fallback ;)
<highvoltage> ogra: are you available tonight to show me the stuff that needs to change, and needs to be added?
<pygi> ogra: I guess you are the mentor for the willow thingy?
<highvoltage> well, i have some time for it tonight, so I'd like to use it :)
<ogra> highvoltage, i'll try
<ogra> pygi, yep
<pygi> highvoltage: will you be able to deliver the chapters assigned to you by may,10?
<Kamion> Riddell: it's working beautifully for GTK; want to get it in for both frontends for beta2, so that we can get the quality of bug reports up
<pygi> ogra: also, you have some chapters to write as well =P
<highvoltage> ogra: ok, thanks. no urgency from your side, i'll just do some updating and then you can review
<ogra> pygi, i know
<highvoltage> sorry, I thought i was on #edubuntu
<ogra> Amaranth, btw, are you registered student ? JaneW asked and i wasnt sure
<ogra> highvoltage, heh
<ogra> yes, lets move there :)
<Amaranth> ogra: I'm in school right now, yes.
<ogra> ok
<JaneW> Amaranth: and over 18?
<janimo> when is beta2?
<Amaranth> And will most likely (unless i get hit by a bus or something) be going next year.
<Amaranth> JaneW: 19
<ogra> perfect
<Keybuk> janimo: we ordinarily only do one Beta release
<JaneW> Amaranth: excellent
<Kamion> janimo: next couple of days, I think
<ogra> now just finish the code :)
<Amaranth> ogra: i'm young, stupid, and cheap ;)
<Keybuk> oh, ignore me :p
<JaneW> Amaranth: just the way we like them ;)
<_ion> I wish the progress bar in Human theme had a small shadow.
<Kamion> Keybuk: bug 40464 means we really need to update the beta live CD in order to get decent feedback from bug reporters
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40464 in ubiquity "espresso crashes on partitioning step in Kubuntu 6.06 LTS Beta Live CD" [Critical,Fix released]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40464
<Kamion> (and to stop scaring away bug reporters)
<JaneW> Amaranth: feel free to get a head start, will make your proposal that much stronger if you have done half the work :)
<ogra> and giving Kamion some sleep at nights :)
<ogra> JaneW, we havent the spec ready yet
<bddebian> Sleep?  Who needs sleep? :-)
<ogra> but there are rough edges where work could start already :)
<pygi> bddebian: the question should not be who needs sleep, but why would you like to sleep =P
<bddebian> :-)
<Amaranth> ogra: like designing the gui?
<ogra> Amaranth, for example ...
<Keybuk> Kamion: I can actually download isos at the moment :)  unless elmo has broken the data centre again <g>
<ogra> or finding out how to get rid of python-profiler
<Amaranth> yeah
<pygi> Amaranth: good luck with proposal and doing the  thingy done :)
<jdub> sabdfl: modded
<Amaranth> ogra: that's the easy part, unless they're on crack
<ogra> :)
<Amaranth> arg, so much email
<ogra> heh
<ogra> lol
<ogra> *how* much actually ? 
<stewart> I know you guys are probably major busy but I have a quick Q: should wine be OK on dapper?
<pygi> stewart: yes, but that's for #ubuntu
<Amaranth> ogra: about 200 since last night, but that's just the "need to read" stuff
<stewart> well ubuntu+1 and no one seemed to know
<sabdfl> jdub: thanks
<Keybuk> stewart: yes
<highvoltage> stewart: support questions on #ubuntu, and wine should work as well as expected, on dapper
<ogra> Amaranth, 850/day 
<ogra> (roughly)
<Amaranth> ogra: ouch, i probably only get 500 or so
<Kamion> Riddell: is there any way to make the contents of a QMessageBox selectable?
<stewart> support questions for dapper in i#ubuntu?
<Riddell> Kamion: no, I think you'd need a custom dialogue for that
<highvoltage> stewart: all support questions on #ubuntu, please read /topic
<Kamion> Riddell: with a QTextEdit or something?
<sabdfl> jdub: thanks, do you know if it made it through to ubuntu-devel and kubuntu-devel?
<dholbach> sabdfl: it did
<ogra> at least to u-d
<Kamion> Riddell: QDialog doesn't seem to be something I can create by itself and add widgets to; any pointers for how to do custom dialogs?
<jdub> sabdfl: it's on u-d, Riddell will be able to moderate for k-d
<ogra> so reading that, will Riddell be in wiesbaden ? 
<ogra> (would make sense)
<sabdfl> ogra: yes
<ogra> ah, great :)
<ogra> (the rumor was he wouldnt) :)
<azeem> is Ubuntu going to have its own booth?
<ogra> yep
* azeem will pop in to LinuxTag on Saturday
<Riddell> Kamion: install qt3-designer
<Riddell> Kamion: create a new dialogue
<Kamion> Riddell: oh, can't be done in code? ok
<ogra> azeem, then you can feel the ubuntu love :)
<azeem> huggityhug
<ogra> hehe
<Riddell> Kamion: sure you can create a class, inherit from QDialog and add your widgets manually
<stewart> highvoltage not to carry on but #ubuntu topic doesnt include dapper support yet?
<azeem> ogra: so far I will feel the "being-debian-booth-personell-pain" it seems.  Somebody subscribed me for that
<bddebian> azeem: :-)
<ogra> hah
<janimo> ogra, how much does LTSP stuff take up on the install CD?
<ogra> janimo, some kb
<janimo> do you think it would make sens to add that to xubuntu install option ?
<ogra> sure 
<janimo> does that need special care in the CD build area?
<ogra> you need the ltsp-client-builder udeb ion the installer 
<janimo> oh, that's all?
<ogra> and if you want an automatic install you need some preseed changes
<ogra> (to call the command)
<ogra> thats all 
<janimo> ogra, if I take relevant bits from  the edubuntu seeds is that enough?
<ogra> i think so ...
<ogra> i never tried to waver it into another system :)
<ogra> *wave
<janimo> does it show up in the boot menu, no need for other intervention?
<ogra> nope
<highvoltage> janimo: i think it's great that you're doing that, btw :)
<ogra> you'll need a special flavor in the boot menu ...
<janimo> highvoltage: well I tought of it last night after talking to you
<highvoltage> :)
<janimo> since people are planning to use xubuntu+ltsp at least make it ieasier
<highvoltage> great! and since it's mentioned how well it works with ltsp on http://xubuntu.org, it makes sense :)
<ogra> janimo, d-i     preseed/late_command    string chroot /target /usr/sbin/ltsp-update-sshkeys
<ogra> thats the preseed command you need
<janimo> ogra: and is that done on the cd image building part?
<janimo> ogra my knowledge of preseed is 0.
<janimo> but I'll copy paste that line for the future :)
<ogra> and ltsp-client-builder must be called at some point after base install in the menu
<bddebian> Is there a list of things waiting to sync somewhere?
<ogra> janimo, mount an iso and look into /pressed there :)
<janimo> ok
<ogra> bddebian, LP
<janimo> but is that code actually in the debian-cd code ?
<janimo> it's not seeds or other source packages right?
<ogra> janimo, preseed ?
<ogra> nope
<janimo> preseed or whatever it takes adding 'install ltsp server' to the boot menu
<ogra> its just telling the install what to do at which point ... 
<janimo> I don;t know if edubuntu has that, never seen it :)
<ogra> edubuntu installs the ltsp stuff by default 
<bddebian> ogra: I know they are on LP but is there a way to just look at those?  Or am I asking a dumb question :-)
<ogra> so i dont have an extra menu option for it
<janimo> aha
<ogra> we have a "workstation" option that supresses the ltsp and server bits 
<janimo> I tought you have default desktop/ltsp server options at boot
<ogra> what you want is exactly the opposite
<ogra> having a default install without ltsp and an extra option with ltsp
<Kamion> janimo: file a bug on /products/ubuntu-cdimage and I can set it up for you
<ogra> the only thing thats tricky there is that you'll need some of Kamion's time to get that into the gfxboot menu
<Kamion> bddebian: /people/ubuntu-archive/+subscribedbugs
<janimo> Kamion, will do
<Kamion> janimo: but please describe exactly what you want, I haven't really been following the above conversation
<janimo> Kamion, I'll try, thanks
<bddebian> Kamion: Thx
<janimo> ogra, I am trying to make sense in the cdimage feature request. So is LTSP server the only reasonable LTSP option?
<janimo> could there be an install LTSP client?
<ogra> ltsp-client-builder is the important part you want
<ogra> nope
<Amaranth> stupid netsplits
<janimo> I mean you can install as 'normal' workstation or ltsp server
<ogra> an ltsp client netboots from the server and mounts a root directory from there via nfs ...
<janimo> ogra, so no install _at all_ on the thin clients?
<ogra> you dont need to do anything at all on the client side
<ogra> exactly
<janimo> they're all assume diskless?
<ogra> just netboot them 
<ogra> yep, currently they are 
<janimo> ok
<janimo> it makes it simpler that's sure
<ogra> that will change in eft or eft+1
<zakame> whoa netsplit
<ogra> i want a thick client mode as well as a kiosk mode with local apps
<janimo> eft+1 = Frantic Ferret
<ogra> i.e. for an internet cafe its enough to have a firefox running fullscreen 
<ogra> you dont need a real X sesssion there 
<zakame> welcome back everyone
<janimo> ogra, is that done now in LTSP ? or does ubuntu have the most featureful LTSP around?
<ogra> janimo, ltsp.org's default setup doesnt differ much from ours, but they have local device support on theor client we dont have yet 
<ogra> (my highest prio for ltsp in eft)
<janimo> there's local sound now in ubuntu right?
<ogra> yep
<janimo> what other device is not? usb keys and such?
<bddebian> Is there any way to get apt-get build-dep to continue on errors so I don't have to pull every damn dep by hand?
<ogra> and a lot of memory saving, usplash, themed login manager and a lot of other small goodies
<ogra> yep
<ogra> cameras, usb keys, floppies
<ogra> all the plug devices g-v-m handles 
<bddebian> Riddell: ping?
<Riddell> bddebian: hmm?
<bddebian> Riddell: Bug #5107  is an old one, do you happen to know if it is still and issue?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 5107 in tagcoll "libtagcoll-dev does not install libtagcoll.pc" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/5107
<Riddell>  it contains /usr/lib/pkgconfig/libtagcoll.pc
<bddebian> Riddell: OK, so should I close it or reject it?
<slomo__> Kamion: ping?
<Riddell> bddebian: close please
<joelbryan> I added some ideas to the SoC page, last 6 entries.
<janimo> ogra I cannot get http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/edubuntu-dapper/ with latest bzr
<janimo> hmm I wonder if it's some proxy playing trick s again. It says bzr: ERROR: An error has been detected. please run bzr reconcile
<ogra> wrong bzr version ? 
<janimo> well latest bzr in dapper
<Keybuk> janimo: WFM
<ogra> ogra@edubuntu:/mnt/devel/seeds/edubuntu-dapper$ bzr pull
<ogra> Using saved location: http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/seeds/edubuntu-dapper/
<ogra> Inventory ok.
<ogra> All changes applied successfully.
<ogra> 2 revision(s) pulled.
<janimo> actually another box is pulling successfully iwth bzr 0,7
<ogra> works fine here
<Keybuk> bzr 0.8rc1 works fine
<ogra> 0.8~200604071016-0ubuntu1
<Kamion> slomo__: hi
<bddebian> Riddell: OK, thx
<janimo> ok, no idea what it is then. As the proxy is only told to cache .debs
<slomo__> Kamion: currently tomboy is built without libgmime2.1-cil which would enable a evolution plugin for it... there are 2 bugreports from users wanting the plugin. is it fine with you to enable it? as tomboy is in main i thought this might need a FF exception
<ogra> mvo, if i add "-o Acquire::gpgv::Options::=--ignore-time-conflict" to my ltsp-build-client script, do i need to add it to every apt-get line in there ? 
<ogra> or does upgrade suffice 
<mvo> ogra: it should be enough if you add it to the "apt-get update" call
<ogra> err
<ogra> update
<ogra> mvo, ta
<mvo> ogra: was it a incorrect time?
<ogra> yep
* mvo remembers a similar issue with the installer
<ogra> the system was already set to June
<Kamion> slomo__: tomboy's only in supported and libgmime2.1-cil is already in main, so I think it's probably OK; but try to get test feedback from those users
<Kamion> ogra: has the apt.conf.d file that sets that option globally for the duration of the installer gone missing then? because if so, I'd like to fix that
<ogra> Kamion, doe it set that as well in /target ? 
<slomo__> Kamion: ok, thanks :) and i'll test it extensive locally too before doing anything with it
<ogra> dont forget ltsp-build-client chroots before running
<ogra> *does
<simira> mvo: I am a bit amused that after running update-manager, I still got updates when running synaptic, and after that was requested to reboot...
<herzi> mvo: ping
<herzi> mvo: can you take a quick look at https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/36127
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 36127 in grub "ESC menu doesn't work" [Normal,Needs info]  
<Kamion> ogra: apt isn't used outside /target, so yes
<ogra> err, yes, silly me
<ogra> i'll try to check back with the reporter (he's offline currently=
<mvo> simira: did you got a "not all packages marked for upgrade" message from update-manager?
<janimo> does being in any of the seeds not automatically imply supported?
<janimo> in edubuntu seeds two packages are both in ship and supported
<mvo> herzi: can you attach your menu.list please to the bugreport?
<simira> mvo: yes, that is, a bunch of packages that appearantly were held back
<janimo> ogra so I need ltsp-client-builder in the installer seed, and server-standalone and ltsp-client in the ship seed?
<ogra> janimo, might be an oversight of me
<wasabi> So I want a nice round ubuntu logo sticker.
<janimo> ogra, ltsp-server is in supported only though
<ogra> janimo, nope, you need Kamion to set up the installer seeds for you
<janimo> what is that?
<janimo> ogra I know (filing the bug)
<janimo> just in the seeds area I mean
<ogra> janimo, see /preseed in your iso
<janimo> ok, I'll look at the next iso I dl
<herzi> mvo: done (i don't think i ever changed that file)
<mvo> herzi: thanks
<janimo> ogra I'll need ldm too I guess?
<ogra> yep
<janimo> hmm, I see edubuntu server is only the ltsp stuff
<janimo> so it does not have the minimal install the others have?
<ogra> and schooltool
<janimo> since xubuntu already has the server seed unchanged
<ogra> -server is installed alongside with -desktop
<janimo> is schooltool neede for generic LTSP, not just edubuntu?
<ogra> nope
<ogra> its standalone
<janimo> so I don;t need it then
<ogra> yep
<janimo> what I mean there's no server as in php/mail/apache as in the other ubuntus
<mdz> sfllaw: as I recall, the justification for eagle-usb was that it is required for lots of folks in France to use their ISPs
<sfllaw> mdz: Makes sense.  It sounds like we want someone to get it ported to using udev.
<mdz> sfllaw: it might be worth asking around the mailing lists if that's accurate and if anyone with experience with it can help out
<ogra> janimo, edubuntu-server predates the ubuntu-server seed
<janimo> ok, but there's no server seed lik ein ubuntu right?
<ogra> no
<janimo> so I know where I put the ltsp packages
<sfllaw> mdz: So... upstream?  Or ubuntu-devel?
<janimo> since a server install is the minimal install
<janimo> I cannot make that ltsp too
<janimo> hmm maybe a new seed is needed for that
<Keybuk> sfllaw: I tried to do that myself (which is why I was looking at it) and just couldn't figure out what the hell it was trying to do
<Kamion> janimo: you need ltsp-client-builder in the installer seed, yes
<Kamion> janimo: and also yes to ship changes
<janimo> Kamion, yes added that already, just not mirrored
<mdz> sfllaw: upstream for the particular bug, -devel for deciding whether it's supportable on an ongoing basis
<Kamion> whatever you need ltsp-client-builder to install needs to be on the CD => in ship
<nomed> Mithrandir: would it be an idea to source a config file within casper ? where it's possible to set vars as USERNAME HOST  ?
<Keybuk> nomed: can't those be seeded using debconf?
<janimo> Kamion: so it does not need to be in server or some other seed too?In that case it's ok, I'll commit now
<Kamion> janimo: no
<Kamion> janimo: edubuntu-server is sort of a distraction here I think
<Kamion> janimo: hmm, well, maybe not
<nomed> maybe this could help even to skip scripts not needed by other distro as xubuntu ...
<Kamion> janimo: if you need to create something analogous to edubuntu-server, maybe you will need an ltsp-server seed
<ogra> edubuntu-server is supposed to be bigger than ltsp
<nomed> Keybuk: ?
<janimo> Kamion, well that's what I was thinking, since server is taken alreday for minimal.
<jsgotangco> ogra: it would be interesting to see -bigiron on edubuntu though :)
<janimo> so an option in the menu corresponds to a seed ?
<janimo> new option
<Kamion> janimo: er ... server means several things but none of them are equivalent to the minimal seed
<Kamion> janimo: no, it corresponds to a preseed file typically
<joelbryan> added the last 8 entries in SoC wiki page.
* janimo really needs to look at  preseed it's mentioned too often
<ogra> jsgotangco, if i can squeeze it into the CD (which exploded the last days without me doing anything again)
<Kamion> janimo: server means (a) "install a server" on Ubuntu CDs => minimal + standard, (b) ubuntu-server CD => minimal + standard + server, (c) edubuntu-server => minimal + standard + (edubuntu) server
<nomed> Keybuk: if  you were asking to me .. it seems vars as USERNAME are hardcoded at the moment
<Kamion> all three of these are different :-(
<highvoltage> janimo: they explain the server seeds a bit at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallCDCustomizationHowTo
<janimo> highvoltage: thanks I'll look
<ogra> Kamion, i'm fine with renaming to classroom-server or something
<janimo> ah so server seed is only for server CD.Ok then
<Kamion> highvoltage: that sort of helps for some of it but it's far from complete
<Keybuk> nomed: it's possible; the old casper only exists now in spirit
<Kamion> ogra: after beta2, then? we need to coordinate a bit
<Kamion> janimo: right, in the case of Ubuntu
<ogra> Kamion, if you blow the horn :)
* joelbryan adding another entry
<Kamion> janimo: Edubuntu has a different meaning for it for historical reasons
<janimo> Kamion: so to actually have a new option in addition to workstation and minimal I need a new seed file? ltsp-server or such
<Kamion> ogra: a name that Xubuntu could also use would be nice, though
<Kamion> would simplify the chaos in cdimage
<Kamion> argh, I completely do not understand the behaviour of Qt's layout managers
<Kamion> janimo: if it's just a simple extra couple of packages and doesn't need an extra metapackage, then actually you don't need to create a new seed, you just need to tell me the package names
<ogra> Kamion, hmm, but edubuntu-server will be the classroom server seed in the future
<ogra> not sure if thats even remotely usable for xubuntu or any other buntu
<Kamion> ogra: for edubuntu, sure, but if xubuntu has a server seed with a similar-ish purpose to edubuntu's then I'd like them to have the same name, and I'm not sure that classroom-server is a good name for xubuntu
<ogra> true
<Kamion> but if the purposes are radically dissimilar (i.e. they'd want different descriptions on the boot menu), then they could have different names, I guess
<janimo> Kamion: I'll have to understand first what goes where in edubuntu as some packages are in two seeds. what I know is that ltsp-server-standalone, ltsp-client and ldm need to be there .right ogra?
<ogra> i dont want anything in the boot menu ... since its my default install
<janimo> so if it's only these 3 and no need for a new seed fine by me
<ogra> janimo, ltsp-server-standalone ltsp-client and ldm, yes
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> and openssh-server iirc
<ogra> its not a dependency, just a recommends
<Kamion> ogra: the default install is a boot menu entry
<Kamion> janimo: if it's just those and you don't want a metapackage, then the simplest course of action is for you to add them to the ship seed, and add a comment to the bug report you filed earlier asking me to create a boot menu entry with a given name that installs those packages in addition to the defaults
<janimo> Kamion, ok will do
<ogra> Kamion, yes, but he needs an extra option, i dont
<janimo> ogra, so you suggest I add openssh-server as well?
<ogra> you'll need it
<ogra> its essential
<Kamion> ogra: doesn't matter from the point of view of cdimage
<ogra> right
<janimo> ogra, openssh-server too?
<janimo> ogra, so if ldm, ltsp- server and client are installed the box automatically boots as a thin client server in addition of running a desktop itself?
<ogra> thats what i wrote above
<Kamion> Riddell: any idea why the dialog I create might have a huge pile of blank space around the VBox with all the actual widgets in? i.e. it doesn't seem to pack itself to anything like the right size
<janimo> ok
<ogra> janimo, you'll still need to adjust the dhcpo config
<ogra> *dhcp
<janimo> is that manual?
<ogra> eft will do that automatically+
<janimo> ok
<ogra> i have a patch ready but its to intrusive for dapper at this point
<janimo> and does the edubuntu server actually start a local X too, or can it be headless?
<ogra> you dont need local X 
<ogra> but you need -desktop installed
<janimo> right, so need X but not a local display
* janimo needs to try out ltsp
<ogra> you dont need local X 
<ogra> but you need -desktop installed
<ogra> s/local//
<ogra> if you start a diskless client, it grabs the ip data and the tftp path from the running dhcp server on your server
<ogra> it then gets the kernel via tftp and boots
<ogra> during boot initramfs mounts / via nfs from your server
<ogra> then it autodetects all values for the clients HW (similar to the live CD)
<ogra> if X on the client is up, it starts ldm
<janimo> ogra you said just recommend openssh
<janimo> otherwise it's a default open port right?
<ogra> now if you log in ....
<ogra> ldm starts: ssh -X user@server /etc/X11/XSession
<ogra> and the users session starts on the server, but displayed on the client
<ogra> s/but/but is/
<ogra> thast basically how ltsp works
<janimo> right, thanks
<ogra> (ubuntu ltsp=
<ogra> )
<janimo> I still need to check it out to see for myself :)
<ogra> yep
<ogra> here are the post install notes: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/LTSPServerSetup
<janimo> thanks
<ogra> oh, and very important, you cant use ltsp easily if y dhcp server is running in your net already and you need a static interface to server the client network
<ogra> s/y/a/
<carlos> pitti: I think this channel is better
<pitti> carlos: hey, yes, I had to leave for a while
<pitti> carlos: wow, today's import is a considerable jump :)
<carlos> pitti: I think there is something wrong with the report you sent to launchpad 
<carlos> pitti: yeah, but the report you sent doen't reflect it
<pitti> carlos: hm, no, I looked wrong, it's actually not that much
<carlos> pitti: It was already there since Saturday, but we were breaking with a database lock so you were fetching the same tarball until today
<carlos> pitti: yes, there is a huge improvement...
<jpatrick> carlos: can you approve me for ubuntu-l10n-es ?
<carlos> jpatrick: I'm an admin but koke is the one reviewing the requests, please, talk with him...
<carlos> pitti: http://mawson.ubuntu.com/~carlos/rosetta-dapper-2006-04-21.log vs http://mawson.ubuntu.com/~carlos/rosetta-dapper-2006-04-25.log
<jpatrick> carlos: ok
<carlos> pitti: we have now 626 .pot files but the statistics you have are the same we had yesterday
<carlos> jpatrick: thanks
<ogra> carlos, pitti, oh, so it was you who made my edubuntu isos explode 
<carlos> ogra: ?
<ogra> its oversized since 21st
<carlos> ogra: we don't have all this on a new language pack (yet)
<pitti> ogra: no, I didn't build langpacks recently
<ogra> and since i didnt change anything i was searching for the packages that immensely raised in size
<koke> jpatrick: read https://launchpad.net/people/ubuntu-l10n-es/
<ogra> pitti, bah, i was hoping i could blame you 
<carlos> ogra: not yet, sorry :-P
<ogra> carlos, i'll wait for it then and whine afterwards :P
<carlos> :-)
<Kamion> Riddell: ok, you have a crash handler now, if I didn't screw up too badly; works for me anyway
<pitti> carlos: hm, strange
<carlos> pitti: we got exactly the same statistics from rosetta like yesterday so seems like you got the same tarball
<carlos> instead of the new one
<carlos> pitti: at what time are you executing your script?
<_ion> Ubuntu 6.06 (The Diaper Drake Release)
<pitti> 30 15 * * * /home/pitti/bin/langpack-report.sh
<_ion> Thank you, thank you. I will be here all week.
<pitti> carlos: I fetch the tarball at 1430 rookery time
<pitti> carlos: i. e. at 1330 UTC
<carlos> that was the problem
<carlos> pitti: the new export took more time
<carlos> pitti: and it finished after you fetch the tarball
<carlos> so you got the old one
<pitti> carlos: ok, so I just grabbed an old tarball
<carlos> right
<pitti> carlos: ok, I manually start a new round
<carlos> could you move it 30 minutes later? we finished 7 minutes later than you started
<carlos> pitti: thanks
<pitti> carlos: sure
<pitti> carlos: done
<carlos> ok
<Kinnison> pitti: with all this, are you likely to want another langpack run any time soon?
<pitti> Kinnison: yes, probably tomorrow
<Kinnison> pitti: okay, just let me know when/where :-)
<pitti> Kinnison: thanks, will do
<pitti> hi jvw
<pitti> carlos: ok, I got the new tarball, 170 MB now, wow :) I generate a new report
<jvw> hi pitti :) -- I guess I should reconnect more often :-P
<carlos> pitti: :-D
<carlos> pitti: how big is your buildd tarball?
<pitti> mine is bigger, of course :-P
<carlos> yeah, I know
<ogra> pitti, !
<pitti> carlos: 260 MB
<ogra> no need to show off here :)
<pitti> 270 even
<carlos> ogra: ;-)
<carlos> pitti: I guess it includes .pot files, right?
<pitti> carlos: no, it doesn't
<pitti> carlos: I never bothered to add that functionality
<carlos> pitti: also, it includes .po files that will not end in the language pack
<pitti> carlos: yes, some
<carlos> pitti: at least you have some documentation files
<pitti> carlos: hm, actually not
<pitti> carlos: the files that land in this tarball will all be shipped by the langpacks
<carlos> pitti: your statistics have manpages domains...
<pitti> carlos: i. e. the real bug is that I don't sort them out well enough
<carlos> pitti: and thus you should remove them ;-)
<pitti> carlos: yes, indeed
<carlos> ok
<pitti> carlos: once rosetta has full dapper imported, I'll happily drop the merging process and just use your's
<pitti> carlos: but so far I just had to merge them
<carlos> pitti: that would be really soon, I just want to know how far are we from that point and your statistics script is helpful for that
<carlos> pitti: you have 930 translation domains, we have now 630
<pitti> carlos: do you happen to have a list (or at least a subset) of domains that are definitively bogus?
<carlos> and I'm sure that some of the missing ones are already on Rosetta but not set as being part of language packs
<pitti> carlos: then I could clean up my import script so that we can converge
<carlos> pitti: your script will provide that list
<carlos> when I finish with rosetta cleanup the difference will be translation domains that you are missing (I found a couple of them already)
<carlos> pitti: and the ones that you note as missing in Rosetta will be the ones that are documentation or anything else that should not be in a language pack
<carlos> anyway, I could provide you with such list, yes
<carlos> its an SQL query
<carlos> usually the ones you are missing are .pot files that don't have any translation but that rosetta got some translations
* carlos needs to leave
<carlos> will be back later today
<nomed> janimo: ping
<janimo> nomed: hi
<nomed> hi janimo
<nomed> it seems today livecd hasn't the install icon on the desktop
<nomed> and as we know the menu entry doesn't work
<janimo> hmm.
<janimo> do desktop icons work at all?
<janimo> or is the setting off
<nomed> janimo: where is the install desktop file ?
<nomed> i'm not logged in the live
<janimo> should be in /home/ubuntu/Desktop
<janimo> is ubuntu is the user
<nomed> ok .. so it's empty 
<janimo> did autologin work?
<nomed> yes
<janimo> and is the new artwork there?
<nomed> and ppl are reporting it as a bug now :D
<nomed> janimo: i don't know yet .. anyway it seems yes
<janimo> why don;t they like it?I mean the wallpaper not the usplash
<janimo> oh, autologin as bug? :)
<nomed> janimo: well users now expect gdm :)
<nomed> anyway it works fine :)
<janimo> we spoiled them with the beta
<janimo> does ubiquity run from cmd?
<janimo> I don't have the CD downloaded.
<nomed> yes
<janimo> is show icons the default desktop view?
<nomed> i should test the last one
<janimo> last one is todays
<nomed> janimo: yes but as i told i'm not the one logged in xubuntu live :)
<nomed> i can just tell you $HOME/Desktop is empty
<janimo> I know, but next time you are
<nomed> ahh ok
<janimo> or run it in qemu :)
<nomed> too slow .. 
<janimo> it boots faster here than on an actual 128M machine
<janimo> no more than 2 minutes to desktop
<nomed> i tried sometime but i realized i' not so patient :)
<mvo_> herzi: I think I know what the problem with the grub thing is, I'll upload a fix today (I hope), if not today, please keep kicking me until I upload it :)
<herzi> mvo_: i will :)
<bddebian> What is xlibmesa-gl-dev these days???
<LaserJock> bddebian: something else :-)
<LaserJock> bddebian: I usually check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Transitions/GLU
<LaserJock> bddebian: I think that is current
<bddebian> It wasn't last time I looked, but I'll try, thanks
<pygi> who do I complain to about "Smart"? =P
<highvoltage> smart isn't even in ubuntu yet, right?
<highvoltage> (i mean, packaged)
<_ion> It is.
<pygi> highvoltage: right, but I still complain
<_ion> I coincidentally tried it yesterday.
<_ion> I installed and upgraded some packages, it seemed to work. :-)
<highvoltage> pygi: well, sabdfl seems to like it, according to the edge announcement, so complain to him :)
<bddebian> pygi: I was trying smart
<ogra> pygi, wait with complaining until its the default installer ...
<pygi> highvoltage: yes, I know...
<ogra> s/installer/package manager/
<pygi> ogra: nah, I am running a global campaign against it =P
<ogra> to late
<ogra> it will be the preferred tool at some point for us
<_ion> Why not just modify apt with those features smart has?
<nomed> reading its README file it seems really cool
<_ion> s/with/to have/
<pygi> yes, I do understand that ogra, but that doesn't mean I have to like it, right? :P
<ogra> dunno if thats already edgy or edgy+1
<HiddenWolf> ogra: why will we ditch apt?
<highvoltage> smart will have huge resistance, whether it's good or not.
<pygi> nomed: o please do say me how will a regular user install TGZ package which doesn't handle deps? or rpm which is unproven & unstable, and rpm from one rpm distro to other don't work
<ogra> highvoltage, yep
<nomed> _ion: i guess the algorithm itself is what make smart so smart :)
<_ion> nomed: That's what i mean  why not make apt use that very algorithm? :-)
<nomed> the way it solves deps :)
<ogra> pygi, if these features work, wouldnt you say smart is cooler athn anything else  
<ogra> *than
<HiddenWolf> _ion: according to the smart page canonical is paying for it's development, so I guess the choice has been made
<nomed> umm .. smart is in python and mainted in python ...
<pygi> HiddenWolf: yea, nothing can be changed...
<pygi> ogra: still no... apt is proven technology, and it's shortcomings can and will be fixed
<HiddenWolf> I'm just wondering, what is it that apt can't do?
<pygi> also, smart HAS ISSUES, not only in code and features, but at it's "show"
<pygi> it's more developer's centric, then users-centric
<pygi> HiddenWolf: it has it's shortcomings, but it will be resolved rather soon...
<nomed> pygi: i guess an app as gnome-app-install is  users-centric too :)
<nomed> and maybe more
<highvoltage> HiddenWolf: well, the nice thing about smart is, that it doesn't matter if you install rpm's or debs, then again, APT can work with RPM's and Deb's too, strictly speaking. it's just not implemented well yet :/
<HiddenWolf> pygi: not my point. I just don't see why apt would need replacement, what can smart do that apt can't?
<pygi> highvoltage: hm, rpm from mandrake won't work on fedora for example, and will break system
<HiddenWolf> highvoltage: considering almost everything has a .deb that isn't a huge advantage
<pygi> also, tgz doesn't have deps 
<pygi> and now imagine installing that on deb system
<highvoltage> HiddenWolf: i agree, dpkg is way advanced compared to rpm.
<highvoltage> pygi: the same is true for .deb's too, a .deb from mepis or knoppix or debian won't necassarily work on ubuntu ;)
<pygi> whatever, I know my opinion doesn't count even a bit, but I had to say
<HiddenWolf> I'm just interested if someone can tell me "this is what smart will fix"
<pygi> highvoltage: wanna bet that rpm is way worser?
<nomed> HiddenWolf: it's well explained within a README file
<_ion> hiddenwolf: Well, there's a bunch of comparisons in the README.
<mjg59> Can we not have this discussion here, please?
<mjg59> It's very off-topic
* mvo_ points out that there is a #smart channel
<highvoltage> pygi: yeah
<highvoltage> perhaps also a bit off-topic, i put the "Xubuntu is a registered trademark of canonical message" at the bottom of http://www.xubuntu.org
<highvoltage> is that true? that xubuntu is a registered trademark? with whom can i follow up on that?
<Keybuk> highvoltage: silbs.
<highvoltage> Keybuk: that's jane.silber@canonical.com?
<ogra> highvoltage, yes
<highvoltage> thanks
<Keybuk> the answer to any admin question is to ask one of the janes or one of the claires usually
<mdke> elmo, Znarl, ping?
<Diziet> I think I've done too many experiments on this testbed and it's time to reinstall it.  It's gone really very strange.
<pitti> carlos: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/langpacks/rosetta-buildd-diff-report.txt
<pitti> carlos: *much* better :)
<bddebian> Is the sync issue fixed yet?
<sfllaw> The default sound-mixing thingy is still esd for Dapper, right?
<crimsun> pitti: could I pick your brain for two minutes (if you have time) please?
<crimsun> sfllaw: alsa native
<sfllaw> crimsun: Thanks.
<pitti> crimsun: sure
<LaserJock> bddebian: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources
<crimsun> pitti: RE: gnome-control-center: sometimes setting defaults.{pcm,ctl}.cards results in the errors we see with alsa-lib spitting out conf hook errors. It's worked around by using the old Breezy-style card index. Could we wrap a transparent (to the user) test into gnome-control-center so this check to see if setting the default card worked?
<pitti> crimsun: oh, so sometimes the !defaults.pcm.card foo fails?
<Kamion> bddebian: no
<Kamion> bddebian: cprov is still working on it
<bddebian> Fark
<pitti> crimsun: so, we could first try by name, then opening the default device and check for errors?
<crimsun> pitti: it's not optimal by far (since the index can change under us after reboot), but it's better than it failing completely
<pitti> indeed
<Kamion> bddebian: shouldn't be a big deal; I expect it to be fixed soon
<crimsun> pitti: yeah, sometimes setting defaults.{pcm,ctl}.cards fails for the string
<pitti> crimsun: I was really busy with printing stuff recently, but I seriously strive for putting my attention to other packages RSN
<pitti> crimsun: ok, that sounds doable, as long as snd_pcm_open really fails then
<crimsun> pitti: awesome, thanks much.
<pitti> crimsun: added to my todo list; thank you for pointing it out!
<crimsun> great, this will close several bugs in Malone :)
<pitti> crimsun: are they all assigned to alsa-lib? or control-center?
<pitti> crimsun: erm, alsa-utils of course
<crimsun> pitti: they're varied; which would you prefer?
<pitti> crimsun: well, control-center would fit since it has to be fixed there
<crimsun> right, that's what I was thinking
<crimsun> I'll triage the ones I find to g-c-c, then
<pitti> anyway, as long as ubuntu-audio is subscribed, I'll find them
<crimsun> ok
* pitti -> dinner
<bddebian> Shit, libvarconf is an depends for cyphesis-cpp
<Mithrandir> nomed: I've considered it
<bddebian> Ack, source for eris is 1.3.10 but binaries are 1.3.9x
<bddebian> Oh, no I'm wrong
<bddebian> Is there still a germinate list posted anywhere?
<mdke> bddebian, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/germinate-output/ ?
<Fjodor> Does anyone know where X looks up strings with XLookupString? It doesn't seem to be able to look up Danish chars here
<Fjodor> And seems too technical for #ubuntu+1, so sorry for asking here
<janimo> Fjodor: tried the manpage? it does not say where it looks though
<mdz> Kamion: does apt-setup still do its disabling of sources it can't contact?  that shouldn't be necessary anymore now that apt and friends behave sensibly about it
<mdz> in fact it's undesirable now
<janimo> in the X keymap tables
<wasabi> There are sparc buildds?
<wasabi> Nice.
<Fjodor> janimo: Looking at it. 
<mdz> wasabi: where did you think all the sparc .debs were coming from? ;-)
<wasabi> Never noticed em.
<wasabi> Was just browsing LP and saw all these sparc machines.
<mvo_> mdz: iirc this is no longer the case
<wasabi> When we getting some ARM's? hahah
<mvo_> mdz: (apt-setu disables sources it can't connect)
<ogra> wasabi, with buntu
<wasabi> There people working on that?
<Fjodor> Well, my girlfriend just called me, so I'll look later. But how would I select a keysym table with Danish chars?
<ogra> no idea, but its on the list since hoary, so eventually someone will jump on it i guess
<janimo> Fjodor: set it in xorg.conf or with the gnome keyboard applet
<ogra> Kamion, so do all your ignore time conflict changes make my change to ltsp-build-client unnecessary ? 
<janimo> Fjodor: or read xkb documentation
<dholbach> wasabi__, wasabi_, wasabi: it's techboard meeting
<wasabi> woh. hi. ;)
<bddebian> mdke: SThx
<bddebian> -S
<bddebian> Hmm, I don't see liberis on there anywhere
<AnsiC> hello
<bddebian> Hello AnsiC
<janimo> Kamion: does everything that's on the liveCD get onto the installed one? Bug #40657 adds gnome session to gdm/xubuntu
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40657 in xubuntu-meta "Gnome GDM option installed, but gnome crashes" [Normal,Needs info]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40657
<pygi> pitti: around?
<pitti> hi pygi 
<pygi> hi pitti 
<pygi> since when is wpasupplicant responsible for ESSID? :-/
<Keybuk> in n-m, since 0.6
<Keybuk> thus pitti's "BREAK NM MUAHAHAHA" patch
<pitti> pygi: that's a very good question, I was quite stunned to learn that, too
<pitti> pygi: so this patch "don't use wpasupplicant for unencrypted networks" probably has to go, right?
<Mithrandir> is that why my n-m enabled interface changes essids on a whim?
<pitti> pygi: essid setting/scanning works quite fine for me, but seems to break for others, so I just give up
<pygi> pitti: yes, but that way we break PPC I believe
<pitti> pygi: well, you can always uninstall wpasupplicant
<Mithrandir> pitti: it works for me, but it ends up reassociating without telling nm-applet.
<pitti> that will purge ubuntu-minimal, but well, tough luck
<Mithrandir> wpasupplicant is in ubuntu-minimal.
<pygi> pitti: what about calling for broader testing of that?
<pygi> most of people don't complain
<pitti> Mithrandir: indeed, that's why I wrote that patch in the first place, and by my understanding of the 0.5 code it should have worked quite well
<janimo> Mithrandir: does casper do the copying of ubiquity install in ~/Desktop?
<pitti> Mithrandir: I wasn't aware that wpasupplicant now even fiddles with essid, sorry
<janimo> it's not there in the xubuntu live of today and am trying to figure out why
<pitti> pygi: testing of what? reverting the patch?
<Mithrandir> janimo: ubuiquity-casper if so.
<pygi> pitti: well, test it at current status...altought we have reports, it's minority
<pitti> pygi: if the patch breaks stuff, we should revert it, sure
<pitti> pygi: I guess there are fewer ppc users than WEP/WPA users
<pygi> pitti: ah, it works for me perfectly tho :-/
<pitti> (on that matter, I have never used a WPA or WEP network so far, but I was told)
<pygi> so for you as well
<pygi> pitti: ugh :-/
<Seveas> pitti, I added the plugdev recipe to blousey (buginfo tool) and it's now ready to roll 
* pygi is not sure what should the course of action be
<pygi> Seveas: does it work for u?
* pitti hugs Seveas 
<Seveas> 
<pygi> 
<Seveas> quick paste, looking for opinions:
<Seveas> <Seveas> the debug-information-report-tool is ready to roll, bzr archive on http://kaarsemaker.net/files/Software/blousey - should I upload a package to REVU?
<Seveas> <mdz> sure, unless it would fit better into an existing package
<Seveas> <Seveas> It's a one-python-script-plus-one-manpage package, any suggestions where it would fit?
<Seveas> <mdz> haven't thought about it, try -devel
<pygi> Seveas: rather new package I suppose
<Kamion> mdz: I thought it didn't due to the apt changes, but apparently that's not quite true - I'll investigate
<Kamion> ogra: no idea, I was bringing them in for other reasons, although I guess it's possible (shouldn't make a difference for CD installs though)
<ogra> Kamion, ok, i'll kepp my patch for now and try tomorrows iso first :)
<ogra> *keep
<bddebian> Who is Bruce Cowan?
<mdke> bddebian, searching on launchpad gives https://launchpad.net/people/bruce-cowan
<bddebian> Yeah, so why is he trying to do syncs?
<mdke> you'll have to ask him, I suspect
<nomed> Mithrandir: in last xubuntu live espresso is the installer and casper has already ubiquity-hooks ..
<nomed> That's why the espresso desktop file can't be in $HOME/Desktop ...
<wiggy> elmo around?
<wiggy> haven't been able to reach him all day
* jdong wants to bug elmo about the 5 packages needing to be pushed into breezy-backports too
<ficusplanet> Will any 2.14.2/2.14.3 releases of GNOME software make it into dapper?  There is a bug in gnome-power-manager that the maintainer tells me can be fixed with a small patch to a HAL script and the soon-to-be-released 2.14.3 version of gpm.
<bddebian> OK, I realize my name is Mud in here but I did want to say that despite having ~10,000 bugs filed, Dapper looks damn nice!!
<Seveas> Barry "Mud" DeFreese 
<sfllaw> I'm still dist-upgrading.
<ogra> bddebian, you didnt bring it below 10000 today ? 
<bddebian> ogra: I'm trying man, I'm trying
<ogra> bddebian, go go go !
<bddebian> And according to LP, I'm not even an Ubuntu Member and have no @ubuntu.com e-mail ;-P
<Seveas> heh, most I did on malone today was rejecting bugs
* pitti just noticed that he merely closed 4 bugs by fixing them today :/
<Seveas> lol
<pitti> at that rate we'll hardly drop below 10.000...
<pygi> I can look into some of n-m, apt, synaptic bugs if it needs
<ogra> pitti, it was only ~100 above 10000 today
<bddebian> Heya seb128
<ogra> pitti, also seb128 is on vacation ... that raises the rate a lot
<pitti> ogra: but now we have sfllaw, so all will be good soon!
<ogra> yeah
<pitti> ogra: oh, btw, does the AE work for you with latest kernel?
<sfllaw> That doesn't fix your fix rate.
<seb128> what rate?
<sfllaw> Exactly.
<ogra> pitti, still hadnt time to upgrade (and i wonder why update-manager is so silent)
<sfllaw> I can only reject so many bugs.
<sfllaw> And I have to find excuses!
<seb128> hi sfllaw
<ogra> seb128, the rate of newly filed bugs vs closed bugs 
<ogra> we're lost without you :)
<seb128> lol
* pitti hands sfllaw the BofH excuse calendar
<seb128> I try catching up on my count this week too
<sfllaw> pitti: I used to be a sysadmin.
<sfllaw> Also, I have trouble killing our users.
<pitti> solar radiation!
<dholbach> sfllaw: may I introduce you to seb128 - it's our magic weapon against bugs :-)
<sfllaw> They are all so far away.
<dholbach> seb128: may I introduce to the bug master :-)
<seb128> if I don't do anything for a week I'll be 1000 unread mail behind or something
<seb128> it took me weeks after UI sprint
<seb128> I'll not do it again
<ogra> yeah, seb128 is the bug smartbomb
<bddebian> ogra: See, I'm the first to say hello to seb128 and I don't even get a Hi :-)
<seb128> Hi bddebian
<Seveas> seb128, malone sends me upwards of 5000 mails per week :/
<sivang> pitti: BofH ?
<pitti> sivang: don't tell me you don't know...
<sivang> pitti: hmm, seems I dont :)
<sivang> pitti: care to enlighten me?
<pitti> sivang: http://bofh.ntk.net/Bastard.html
<Seveas> 
<seb128> Seveas: I do reply to every single one of my bugs that don't get a proper reply by somebody else or don't mark them as read
<pitti> sivang: very funny and enlightening stories about how a sysadmin should not be :)
<sivang> ah!
<sivang> pitti: I didn't recognize the acroym
<sivang> acronym, even :)
<seb128> Seveas: I doubt you make sure than those 5000 mails get a proper reply ;)
<seb128> or you are incredibly good
<Seveas> seb128, I try to give all of them some attention
<seb128> because I don't copy with my 1000 spending 10 hours a day
<seb128> s/copy/cope
<Seveas> not all mails are new bugs fortunately ;)
<sivang> seb128: any idea what would be good to do with malone #40802 ?
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40802 in gnome-system-tools "in users-admin user privileges there are 3 modem entries" [Normal,Confirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40802
<Mithrandir> grr, convert doesn't write 1-bit pngs correctly.
<seb128> sivang: no, and there is a collection of other new g-s-t bugs too if you want
<ogra> what do you need 1bit pngs for ? 
<sivang> seb128: I've startd following the, checking whenever I can
<sivang> seb128: will drop in during the following days
<seb128> bug 40935
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40935 in gnome-system-tools "Grammar fixes in "User Privileges" tab of User Properties" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40935
* sivang tomboys
<seb128> bug #40803
<Ubugtu> Malone bug 40803 in gnome-system-tools "can't enable/disable audio privilege in users-admin" [Normal,Unconfirmed]  http://launchpad.net/bugs/40803
<Mithrandir> ogra: use less space than 8 bit when doing a4 scans in 300dpi
<ogra> ah
<sivang> seb128: thanks
<slomo__> Kamion: please demote wavpack to universe... it's not needed in main anymore, only rdepend is gst-plugins0.8 which is in universe now
<mdz> slomo__: it's already pending, http://people.ubuntu.com/~cjwatson/anastacia.txt
<mdz> slomo__: anastacia notices when a package which was pulled into main by a dependency is no longer needed there
<slomo__> mdz: oh ok, thanks :)
<dholbach> night guys
<pygi> night dholbach
<sivang> night dholbach 
<dholbach> night pygi, sivang
<jmg> why are all scripts named after women like that?
<sivang> slomo__: I will have an update for upbackup soon enough , until when are you going to be here?
#ubuntu-devel 2007-04-23
<jdub> woo, time to upgrade to gusty!
<grayman> hah
* jmg upgrades jdub's face with a rake
<grayman> good call
* sharms starts work on Gusty + 20 -- entirely xml based toolchain, no unix file system, and controlled via USS Enterprise like system, and a bikeshed
<jmg> sharms: you mean LCARS
<sharms> yeah :)
<jmg> http://themes.freshmeat.net/projects/lcarsaccess441/
<jmg> (iii) make any copies of the PV Drivers or use the PV Drivers other than in conjunction with licensed Products.
<jmg> oops
<jmg> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwXBPjLdJnU
<sharms> ha that looks bad ass
* delire upgrades to jesting jdub
<\x-it> I know this is not a support channel but, basically, no one knows wtf to do in #linux/#ubuntu/#debian or anywhere and I am wondering if one if you would help me in a /msg? It is concerning wheel/su/chmod. Once I restart, I will not be able to login to root anymore (ever), basically.
<\x-it> And I don't feel like reinstalling ><
<\x-it> I can bribe? ;p
<sharms> \x-it: #1 it isn't really proper etiquette to PM, or ask in channels which are not for the chosen topic.  Fortunately for you, I am the bad boy of ubuntu, so I will give you 120 seconds of my time
<sharms> \x-it: there is no password for root by default
<\x-it> Hmm?
<\x-it> I know.
<sharms> \x-it: with that stated, ask your question in a specific manner, and you have 92 seconds left
<\x-it> It's ok
<sharms> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo  -- that should really cover anything related to root
<johanbr> xq: Did you get it sorted out?
<sid> root@cookooland:~# apt-get install linux-restricted-modules-2.6.20-15-generic, E: Couldn't find package linux-restricted-modules-2.6.20-15-generic, When I started restricted-manager... it tells me it can't run without that program. But this program isn't installable... anyone have a link to the deb? or know how to install it?
<sid> I don't see it listed here: http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/l/ .. Is this a bug?
<grayman> erm
<grayman> that's really the wrong place to ask that and you're doing it wrongly
<sid> grayman: synaptic or aptitude don't show the package either.(my sources.list are here: http://rafb.net/p/hhRH1612.html ) .. I removed this package to mess with madwifi and openhal, but the module doesn't work with my chipset(yet), so I did make uninstall in my madwifi directory, and I am not able to get linux-restricted-modules-2.6.20-15-generic installed again. I'm running feisty with all default settings(except removing linux-restricted* for experim
<sid> I think it's a bug, I'm pretty sure. Can anyone confirm, try to purge linux-restricted-modules-2.6.20-15-generic and install it again?
<grayman> ah you're under root. it is there in my mirror
<grayman> might be missing in yours
<sid> grayman: So you were able to purge it and than install it?
<grayman> i see it in the list and it's already installed
<sid> grayman: You have a link?
<grayman> to what?
<sid> The deb?
<sid> hmm, it was in restricted. It's strange that a package comes on the maincd, but I'm not able to remove/install it, since the sources.list doesn't have restricted by default.
<sid> Should make it so you're able to remove/install any package that is installed via the disc when formatting with Ubuntu.
<sid> thanks a lot for the help grayman, I appreciate it.
<grayman> yes well, next time it's really a question for @ubuntu
<grayman> s/@/#
<jugo23> How exactly can I become involved with helping develop ubuntu?
<jmg> jugo23: start by filing/fixing bugs
<lifeless> jugo23: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<jugo23> Where do I find reported bugs that need fixing?
<pygi> jugo23: www.launchpad.net
<jugo23> Thank you.
<pygi> yw
<jugo23> Another question: What programming language do you think assists in the overall development of ubuntu?
<jmg> Python
<jugo23> That's what I would have guessed.
<jmg> or perl, c
<jmg> equally valuable
<imbecile> I just had to come in here to say that fiesty is by far the most pleasant linux distro I have ever used.. thank you all very much for your hard work.. I LOVE IT!!!!!
<xq> johanbr: Yes, thank you very much
<johanbr> I didn't really do anything, but you're welcome. :)
<xq> Just asking and being polite is worth a thank you for asking :)
<bryce> jugo23: there's several projects hosted at launchpad.net; make sure to click on the 'ubuntu' first, then search on projects
<xq> Also be sure to join your local team if there is one :)
<Hobbsee> morning all
<pygi> hi Hobbsee 
<Hobbsee> :)
<pygi> what are you upto at this early morning? :)
* pygi hides :)
<Hobbsee> it's 2pm
<pygi> or 5:55AM, depends on how you put it
<Hobbsee> true
<ion_> Morning.
<Mithrandir> Lutin: sure.
<fabbione> morning
<ajmitch> morning fabbione, Mithrandir 
<Mithrandir> morning ajmitch, fabbione 
* fabbione hugs everybody
<Hobbsee> hi Mithrandir, fabbione 
* Hobbsee hugs fabbione back
* Mithrandir hugs Hobbsee back
* Hobbsee hugs Mithrandir :)
<Burgundavia> morning Mithrandir, fabbione
<Mithrandir> hiya Burg
<pitti> Good morning
<Hobbsee> hi pitti!
<Mithrandir> morning pitti
<fabbione> hey pitti
* pitti hugs Hobbsee, Mithrandir, and fabbione
* Hobbsee hugs pitti back :(
<Hobbsee> er, :)
<ion_> Hi pitti
<ion_> pitti: I finally got around to setting my jabberd back up; i also added your JID to my contact list.
<pitti> ion_: ah, nice; I'm not on jabber ATM, I will be again when I'm back at my workstation (gf is still asleep :) )
<ajmitch> hey pitti 
<ion_> My JID is ion@heh.fi in case anyone else feels like adding it. :-)
* pitti <- actually prefers IRC
* Hobbsee suggests banning all IM clients except irc
<Lathiat> yeh i like irc
<Lathiat> jabber beats msn
<ion_> pitti: Me too. But jabber is nice for talking with people for whom IRC is too complex, such as my parents.
<pitti> ion_: right
* ajmitch uses a phone for that
<Hobbsee> Lathiat: it's group chats are a bit weird though
<ion_> ajmitch: Helping your dad configure stuff on his computer is a lot easier with a text-based system where you can write commands and he can paste their output. :-)
<Lathiat> ion_: yeh thats what msn is for :)
<Lathiat> most of my non 'geek' friends are on msn
<ion_> I should set up a VPN from his computer to my network so i could just log in to his box, though.
<ion_> MSN randomly drops messages. At least gaim shows an error (after a long delay), but the official Messenger doesnt even do that. :-)
<Lathiat> i never have a problem with that
<Mithrandir> there was a "TCP-over-gaim" SoC project which looked kinda interesting.
<Lathiat> gaim actually sends me *too many* errors
<Lathiat> half the time i send a message in msn on gaim it sends an error back but they got the message
<Lathiat> usually the first message i send
<Lathiat> but yeh i have sen errors come back like 10 minutes later, like . once or twice.
<dholbach> good morning
<ion_> Hi
<dholbach> hey ion_
<JussiP> I wrote a wiki page describing why Linux should support fully relocatable binaries. Read it here and tell me what you think: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RelocatableBinaries
<pitti> JussiP: is that -fPIE?
<JussiP> No.
<Mithrandir> pitti: noe
<Mithrandir> nope
<pitti> ah, no
<phratman> Hello.
<phratman> Could someone else look into this as well to verify that some sort of bug in kickstart -> d-i translation is in effect? Step a) Make a simple kickstart setup (doesn't really matter what it looks like as long as it has a post installation script that untars a .tar file) Step b) Boot up an Ubuntu Feisty Alternate Installation CD with the ks=<path to the kickstart configuration file> (Hit F6 and add ks=http://somewebserver
<JussiP> Relocatable as in "move it anywhere within your filesystem and it still works".
<phratman> If a "bad number" error is displayed in /var/log/syslog on the installation CD, then the error has been successfully been reproduced. I've tried it on two different machines (albeit with the same make and model, but physically two different machines) and I have reproduced the error at least two or three times over.
<Mithrandir> JussiP: your claim that you can't run two apaches in parallell is false.
<phratman> (on each)
<JussiP> It was an example.
<Mithrandir> JussiP: use examples which are true, then.
<phratman> Also, I've noticed another bug with kickstart but I haven't filed it with Launchpad just yet. Is it faster to just talk to a developer about it here... ?
<pitti> JussiP: two hald instances will fight each other badly, for example
<pitti> or dbus
<JussiP> But you can stop one and start the other one. Just as with self-compiled versions.
<pitti> of course
<JussiP> Which is pretty much the entire point.
<JussiP> Replaced apache with foobar on the page.
<Mithrandir> I'm not sure what problem you're trying to solve.  For instance, by far most of the software I come across runs just fine out of the compilation directories.
<phratman> Hello?
* Hobbsee curses the wiki
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: i presume the sysadmins know that the wiki is dog slow, and has been for days?
<phratman> Ah, overlap noted.
<grayman> yup
<Mithrandir> phratman: #ubuntu-installer might be a better channel to ask in.
<phratman> Jeez, you people are even better organizers than I presumed :)
<JussiP> The problem is that if you have a .so file and it has its own conf file, what should it pass to fopen to read it.
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: I don't know.
<mdke> Hobbsee: best thing is to ask them. I wouldn't assume they do
<Burgundavia> Mithrandir: really old laptop testing team results. Keep or nuke??
<Mithrandir> JussiP: shared objects shouldn't have configuration files.
<Mithrandir> Burgundavia: really old as in breezy?
<Burgundavia> Mithrandir: and earllier
<Hobbsee> mdke: who are they?
<JussiP> Mithrandir: why not?
<Mithrandir> Burgundavia: nuke them, IMO.
<Mithrandir> JussiP: encoding the soname in the name of the configuration file is painful and makes migration hard when you upgrade, for a start.
<mdke> Hobbsee: https://launchpad.net/~canonical-sysadmins / #canonical-sysadmin 
<Burgundavia> anybody else got an opinion?
<phratman> Hehe, I was told this channel isn't very active... apparently someone meant to say #ubuntu-installer isn't very active.
<JussiP> And that would be different from executable files how?
<Mithrandir> JussiP: do you know what a soname is and why we have them?
<Hobbsee> mdke: great, thanks.  i'll take the duncecap for not picking the smart answer :P
<mdke> np
<JussiP> Sorry, I don't know linker magic all that much.
<Mithrandir> JussiP: so, each time you break backwards compatibility, you change the name of the library.  Usually, that is done by incrementing a digit at the end of the name (libc6 is the sixth or seventh libc ABI for instance).  This is done so you don't have to recompile all your applications in one go and libraries with different sonames can be installed in parallell.
<Mithrandir> we don't do anything like that for most applications, and when we do, we don't migrate settings, which is bad and leaves the user out in the cold.
<Mithrandir> like apache 1 => apache 2; they're coinstallable, but no attempt at migrating the settings from a1 to a2 is done.
<Mithrandir> doko: good morning.
<Mithrandir> doko: gcc-4.1 ftbfs on ppc and sparc. :-/
<JussiP> I know that, but can't formulate something suitable for an answer. So let's stick to executables then. Same question as above but s/a .so file/an executable file/.
<doko> Mithrandir: seen, trying to track this down. was afk most of the weekend
<Mithrandir> doko: thanks.
<Mithrandir> JussiP: I actually think those use cases are, for the most part, better solved by using solutions such as zeroinstall or klik.
<JussiP> Zeroinstall's faq says: "The main requirement is that the program doesn't use hard-coded paths." What I'm suggesting is a system-wide and standardised way to achieve this for any program.
<Mithrandir> that's slightly incorrect, it just needs to use relative paths.
<mvo> JussiP: klik should not have this requirement
<Hobbsee> who said we're getting klik?
<JussiP> It also says "a shell script would use `dirname $0`/mydata rather than /usr/share/myprog/mydata". The dirname part in shell code is exactly equivalent to having a function as I describe on the wiki page.
<Mithrandir> you want a function that is essentially dirname(argv[0] ), you're aware of that?
<JussiP> Except that argv[0]  is almost always just 'foo'.
<JussiP> Not '/usr/bin/foo' or whatever.
<pitti> dirname(/proc/self/exe), then? :)
<pitti> well,l readlink()
<JussiP> Please read this: http://autopackage.org/docs/binreloc/
<phratman> Oh, I heard rumors that Ubuntu was going to get off Debian and get onto some sort of alternative (autopackage was a term that was thrown around). Is there any truth to that?
<JussiP> pitti: yes, exactly except that a) it is not portable (I think) and b) does not work for libraries (as mentioned on the link above).
<Mithrandir> phratman: no.
<phratman> I thought Ubuntu and Debian had really close ties so I dispelled such rumors.
<Burgundavia> phratman: last time I checked today is not April 1st,
<phratman> Burgundavia: Point taken.
<Hobbsee> phratman: if you read it off the forums, and not off ubuntu-devel ML or something, it's probably not true
<pitti> JussiP: hm, I don't really understand why a library should behave differently when it is run from different paths
<phratman> Hobbsee: It was by word of mouth.
<shawarma> pitti: Is the automatic apport retracer thing not running anymore?
<pitti> JussiP: people often use LD_LIBRARY_PATH to use a locally built version for testing, or to install a needed lib on computers where they don't have root etc., but that should often not alter their behaviour
<JussiP> pitti: suppose it has to access some data files such as icons that get installed along with it. What file name should it pass to fopen?
<pitti> shawarma: no, it isn't, we need to fix python-launchpad-bugs first; the latest LP rollout broke it
<pitti> JussiP: right, I see such use cases
<shawarma> pitti: Ah, ok. Thanks.
<pitti> JussiP: my point is, that this should not *always* be the case
<pitti> JussiP: i. e. developers often start e. g. gnome-panel with a locally built libgnomevfs.so, but that doesn't mean that they want the library to use /home/foo/icons (which doesn't exist)
<JussiP> Fair enough, but it does have uses and is currently impossible (without hacking).
<pitti> JussiP: or I want to install and use libfakeroot.so on a server where I'm not root, etc.
<shawarma> pitti: Hm... So the a local "apport-retrace <bugnumber>" won't work either, I suppose?
<pitti> JussiP: I'm not convinced that there is a central and nonintrusive solution TBH; this needs to be carefully implemented per-library
<pitti> shawarma: I'm not sure whether it works with -o or -s; you can try
<pitti> shawarma: I just disabled it quickly to not loose the bug tags until this is resolved
<pitti> JussiP: I fully agree to 'being useful sometimes'
<JussiP> Yes, but adding the *possibility* to do that to the system is a very small addition (since you can dig out the information if you really, really want to).
<shawarma> pitti: Oh, it's the upload-the-new-traces-to-launchpad bit that's broken in python-launchpad-bugs?
<JussiP> In other words: adding this function will break 0 applications and libraries. Having it available gives coders a lot more freedom and capabilities.
<pitti> shawarma: I'm really not sure, I didn't have time to look into it yet; I hope that I can fix this today
<shawarma> pitti: Ok. Thanks.
<JussiP> Even more simplified: having this makes OSX app bundle type stuff possible. And thus Mac users have to find a new thing to boast about.
<pitti> JussiP: they don't have apt-get install <anything you want> :-P
<JussiP> Neither do we. There's a lot of stuff that's not packaged. In blue sky dreams having fully relocatable LSB binaries app devs could just create one of those and it would work on any distro, in any path. [add sufficient smileys here] 
<delmorep> http://digg.com/linux_unix/Compile_the_Audacity_1_3_2_Beta_with_Ubuntu_Feisty
<pitti> mvo: can I nag you about the apport and tzdata feisty-proposed verifications?
<pitti> hi slomo!
<slomo> hi pitti 
<mvo> pitti: sure, its on my list for today, let me check if its available in the archive now
<pitti> slomo: I will write some MIRs for texlive today, so that we can do the tetex->texlive transition as early as possible
<pitti> mvo: I just checked, it is
<pygi> hi pitti and mvo 
<pitti> hi pygi
<mvo> hey pygi!
<slomo> pitti: sounds good :) i already planned that soon too and the versions currently in debian are working good for my stuff ;)
<seb128> hi slomo
<pitti> slomo: do you happen to know if they moved all the tetex-patches to texlive?
<mvo> pitti: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/feisty-proposed/main/binary-i386/Packages.gz <- is empty for me
<pitti> slomo: the thing we currently still carry is the 'patch for not crashing for 0.5 hour timezones'
<pitti> mvo: urgh, they are on drescher
<slomo> pitti: no idea... and your poppler patch is still not there as poppler 0.5 is still not in unstable...
<pitti> mvo: that url is not empty for me, hm
<slomo> hi seb128 
<pitti> slomo: that's easy enough to carry ourselves for now
<slomo> pitti: i would assume that the timezone patch is upstream but shouldn't be hard to verify ;)
<pitti> right
<mvo> pitti: it is for me even with wget --no-cache, strange
<Nafallo> not empty for me either
<pitti> mvo: hm, you might have a different mirror which is out of date
<pitti> mvo: try de.archive
<mvo> pitti: I will try to reach the sysadmins
<Mithrandir> pitti,mvo : archive.u.c was being hammered over the weekend, so I suspect it's just not up-to-date.
<Nafallo> Mithrandir: wget said it wasn't empty for me :-)
<mvo> pitti: thanks, de.archive.u.c works
<pitti> mvo: the two apport bugs have hints for testing, btw
<mvo> pitti: thats good, thanks
<saispo> hi folks
<saispo> debootstrap under edgy is not updated for gutsy ?
<saispo> ./usr/lib/debootstrap/scripts/gutsy: Not found in archive
<Fujitsu> saispo: It won't be... You always need the one from the development release.
<elena_g> can someone tell me if this 56k modem is supported by Feisty?:     01:07.0 Modem: ALi Corporation SmartLink SmartPCI563 56K Modem
<elena_g> opps hello all :)
<saispo> Fujitsu: i must upgrade my edgy to feisty for having a debootstrap with gutsy ?
<Fujitsu> elena_g: Try #ubuntu
<elena_g> Fujitsu, ok :)
<Fujitsu> saispo: No, you must upgrade debootstrap to gutsy's version.
<Fujitsu> Come to think of it, I don't think it's even in gutsy yet.
<saispo> hmmmm strange
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: given that gutsy is frozen until we have a toolchain, yes.
<Fujitsu> How's it at all strange, saispo?
<saispo> Mithrandir: ok, i understand know :)
<Fujitsu> Mithrandir: Well, tzdata got through.
<saispo> Fujitsu: because before, i can use beootstrap for feisty under an edgy :)
<Fujitsu> But I guess that doesn't really need to build all that much.
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: yes, tzdata was the first bit of the bootstrap.
<saispo> i must wait for toolchain :)
<Fujitsu> Do we backport debootstrap or something?
<saispo> Fujitsu: no
<Mithrandir> then binutils, then glibc, then gcc-4.1, but the gcc-4.1 build failed on powerpc and sparc so we need to fix that first.
<saispo> ok
<saispo> thanks Fujitsu and Mithrandir 
<saispo> i will move my edgy to feisty
<Fujitsu> How is tzdata particularly important for bootstrapping? Isn't it just a set of timezone files which can be updated arbitrarily?
<saispo> i see updates for feisty but not available on repository, it's "normal" ?
<seb128> saispo: what updates?where?
<saispo> euh... works now :/ update for capplet, apport and some other things
<saispo> maybe the mirror was not up2date :)
<mvo> siretart: do you plan uploads for edgy, dapper for #104332 as well? 
<siretart> bug 104332 was the rdesktop update, no?
<ubotu> Malone bug 104332 in rdesktop "Segmentation Fault (core dumped)" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104332
<siretart> right.
<siretart> mvo: I can do it. However, it appeared as a consequence of an security upload
<siretart> mvo: are machines with -security but not -updates common?
<mvo> siretart: sometimes, but I guess not common (but I have no figures)
<mvo> siretart: I'm just asking because it has a dapper and edgy tasks
<siretart> mvo: honstely, I'm not exactly sure if dapper and edgy are affected at all
<mvo> eh, edgy only
<siretart> if they are affected, then it's because of a security related change in libx11-6
<mvo> ok, I leave it as it is then, I do not have anything to test rdesktop against
<pitti> dholbach: argh @ the multitude of branches without descriptions on https://code.launchpad.net/bughelper
<pitti> dholbach: if I do the attachment upload fix on the bughelper.0.1 branch, will you merge it to trunk?
<dholbach> pitti: yes
<dholbach> pitti: will add descriptions
<pygi> ho dholbach 
<dholbach> hi pygi
<pitti> dholbach, seb128: ah, I have the python-launchpad-bugs fix
<seb128> pitti: rock on
<ion_> Hi pygi
<dholbach> pitti: super! let me know when you committed it
<pitti> dholbach: bug 109213
<ubotu> Malone bug 109213 in bughelper "recent LP rollout broke Bug.add_comment()" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109213
<pitti> dholbach: I added the branch, tasks, etc.
<dholbach> saw the bug - thanks pitti
<pitti> alright, retracers are happy and running again
* seb128 hugs pitti
<pitti> with a huge work pool ;)
<pitti> oh, need to do ppc retracer as well
* ogra pokes nfs4
<ogra> now that i have a working implementation in initramfs it appears immensely slower than v3 :/
<racarr> Questions about UDS: 1. Does the Hotel provide breakfast? 2. What do people do for lunch?
<Treenaks> racarr: 1. yes, like most hotels (it costs extra, no idea if it's included if you're sponsored); 2. no idea.
<racarr> Treenaks: Mrgh. Ok. I guess I will send an email to find out if it is covered with sponsorship then...
<racarr> Thanks.
<pygi> racarr: they usually eat for lunch :P
<racarr> pygi: Har har. 
<Amaranth> The only one I've been to had lunch from Google so... :)
<Treenaks> I'
<Treenaks> We went to the hotel restaurant in Montreal
<Treenaks> and there was Death in a Bag in mataro (only for sponsored people)
<Mithrandir> lunch tends to be on-site, dinner is usually out in the city somewhere, most of the days you're on your own, but some days there are big group dinners.
<Amaranth> Death in a Bag?
<Mithrandir> I'm not sure if this is how it'll be done this time around as well, but that's how it's usually been done.
<Mithrandir> Amaranth: I doubt we'll have those every again.
<Amaranth> In Mountain View my dinner ended up being whatever came out of the hotel vending machine :P
<Amaranth> What is this 'Death in a Bag'?
<thom> *giggle*
<Treenaks> Amaranth: oskuro.net/blog/freesoftware/mataro-halfway-2004-12-10-12-29
<pygi> Amaranth: a cat
<pygi> :P
<racarr> Mithrandir: And do you know about Breakfast being included in sponsorship?
<Mithrandir> we had some unfortunate lunches in mataro which quickly got the nickname "death bags"
<Mithrandir> racarr: I would assume so, yes.
<Amaranth> Treenaks: that makes me download an empty file
<StevenK> Hum. oskuro.net looks broken
<Treenaks> Amaranth: google cache for it works
<Mithrandir> racarr: afaik, when people are sponsored their travel + hotel + food is sponsored, but I haven't been sponsored for years so I'm not sure if this has changed.
<racarr> Mithrandir: Ok. Thanks.
<Lutin> Mithrandir: thanks for rejecting allegro and SRUing cinepaint :)
<Amaranth> Food from the local jail sounded like a better alternative? Yikes. :)
<Treenaks> Amaranth: that was Mataro :) The hotel in Montreal was much much better
<pygi> dholbach: yay, message sent :P
* pygi hides back
<Treenaks> (also, there were lots of places where you could eat.. Subway, etc.)
<Mithrandir> Lutin: oh, my pleasure.  Would you mind pushing cinepaint through the rest of the process so we could get it into -updates?  (I did it mainly because we needed a test package for -proposed)
<Lutin> Mithrandir: sure, I'll do that :)
<Mithrandir> thanks
<Adri2000> pitti: have you received my email (requestsync patch)?
<pitti> Adri2000: I got it, yes, but we cannot upload to gutsy yet, so I didn't look at it yet
<Adri2000> ok
<pitti> Adri2000: looks reasonable so far, although invoking $EDITOR would be cool :)
<pitti> reading from stdin should be good enough for smaller diffs, though
<Mithrandir> pitti: it should then just call sensible-editor
<Demon012> hi everyone I am wishing to join in with development (I am new to developing open source software. Is this channel the correct one for me or is it the #ubuntu-motu ?)
<Amaranth> Demon012: #ubuntu-motu might be a better place
<Mithrandir> #ubuntu-motu is probably a better starting point.
<harrisony> Demon012: if you want to package the software (that is used in synaptic MOTU is for you)
<Amaranth> Demon012: But that's mostly for packaging software for Ubuntu (which requires some knowledge about how the software works)
<Demon012> ok ty guys
<Demon012> I wish to help with the actual coding though. But do you think I should start with packaging?
<harrisony> Demon012: if you want to be a dev of ubuntu here is the right place
<harrisony> (i dont dev i just admire the devs and all the cool people hang out here)
<pygi> Demon012: go to launchpad, look at bugs, write patches, and attach them to bugs
<Demon012> ok pygi will start with trying to do that 
<Demon012> is there a standards list I should look at or anything for ubuntu code?
<pygi> Demon012: what are you using most? What are your interests?
<Demon012> like a standardised indentation style?
<Demon012> I am a programming student
<Demon012> have been programming properly for 4 years
<pygi> Demon012: I mean what are your interests :) Music applications, education, ltsp, cd-recording apps, etc, etc?
<Demon012> oh right sorry =)
<Demon012> mmm music, education, communcation, user interface design
<Demon012> and general program design for that matter
<pygi> ok, well, go to #edubuntu and ask what can you help with some of the educational applications :)
<Demon012> ok will do ty
<racarr> Demon012: All the upstream projects will have their own style.
<sjoerd> pitti: Thanks for your deb<->ubuntu merge mail for gvm.. little nag: please use the pkg-utopia-maintainers list next time :)
<ogra> pitti, if i could manage to get hal to run on a thin client and manage to read the info for a blockdevice, mount it via ltspfs and then use set property to create a copy fr that device on the server but with the ltspfs mount as device node, do you think hal would survive and handle that ? 
<pitti> re
<pitti> sjoerd: oh, I will; is that free for anybody for posting?
<mantiena-baltix> Hi all
<sjoerd> Not 100% sure, but your allowed to post (as the hal changes discussion was partly on it)
<pitti> ogra: you'd need a network dbus connection between the two, or use some other means of communication
<pitti> ogra: but yes, it sounds doable
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: hi, do you have few minutes to talk about bug #89853 ?
<ubotu> Malone bug 89853 in xorg-server "[regression]  7.2 broke vesa: "No matching modes found"" [High,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/89853
<pitti> sjoerd: ah, great; I can forward it to the list if you want me to
<sjoerd> please do 
<sjoerd> It's mostly me and mbiebl that worry about gvm, but it's good if the other guys can see it too
<ogra> pitti, why is that ? if the device is there (in form of the device node) and all data is in the hal db i shoudlnt need direct communication, do i?
<sjoerd> Which reminds me that i should make sure their on the list :)
<tepsipakki> mantiena-baltix: shoot
<mantiena-baltix> it seems this bug is solved only when I install both xserver-xorg-video-vesa_1.3.0-1ubuntu4.2_i386.deb and xserver-xorg-core_1.2.0-3ubuntu7.4_i386.deb packages from http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/dpkg/ :)
<tepsipakki> mantiena-baltix: that's just plain weird :)
<mantiena-baltix> ;)
<tepsipakki> I'll ask ajax if the backtrace is of any use
<pitti> ogra: I mean, somehow the client has to tell the server hald about the new device?
<mantiena-baltix> I just tested on Fujistu Amillo laptop with ATI Technologies Inc ATI Radeon XPRESS 200M 5955 (PCIE) video card
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: it boots fine on feisty final with ati driver, but doesn't boot if I change Driver "ati" to Driver "vesa"
<ogra> pitti, yes, thats done already through an ssh tunnel (and sbalneav is working on an X based comm layer atm)
<mantiena-baltix> But when I install xserver-xorg-video-vesa_1.3.0-1ubuntu4.2_i386.deb and xserver-xorg-core_1.2.0-3ubuntu7.4_i386.deb packages from http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/dpkg/ then X starts fine even with vesa on that laptop ;)
<ogra> indeed i need to get the data from the client to the server for hal-add-property :)
<ogra> i just wanted to know if its possible to cheat hal in this way ;)
<ogra> so we can move out all the ltspfs handling from gnomevfs to hal ... and Riddells users will be more happy in LTSP :)
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: should I write this in launchpad bug comments ?
<tepsipakki> mantiena-baltix: you could do that, yes
<pitti> ogra: I didn't look at it in detail yet, but it should be possible to encapsulate this as a hal addon, yes
<ogra> cool
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: ok, btw, could you build  xserver-xorg-core_1.2.0-3ubuntu7.4_i386.deb without dbg symbols ? I have very slow internet connection and getting build-deps for  xserver-xorg-core would take a lot of time :( Please...
<Mithrandir> mantiena-baltix: no.
<Mithrandir> policy tells you to build with debug symbols.
<tepsipakki> Mithrandir: actually, it's stripped by default
<tepsipakki> that version isn't
<pitti> erm, but they certainly should not appear in the debs by default
<Mithrandir> yes, which is done by dh_strip or similar.
<tepsipakki> I tried to backport the -dbg package stuff from debian, but thought that this was easier for testing (just skip dh_strip)
<Mithrandir> it should be _built_ with debug symbols.
<tepsipakki> ah :)
<Mithrandir> they're just stripped out before the package is assembled.
<pitti> sjoerd: sent; and this time with an actual patch attachment (brown paperbag)
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: I really need smaller xserver-xorg-core package and it seems you already have build-deps for this, so, maybe you could build stripped package (like standard ubuntu package) for me ?
<sjoerd> pitti: thanks!
<tepsipakki> mantiena-baltix: it's built in pbuilder
<pitti> sjoerd: I merge gnome-mount now and do the same
<sjoerd> nice work :)
<tepsipakki> mantiena-baltix: and you have downloaded it already?
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: I don't have build-deps
<tepsipakki> mantiena-baltix: why do you need to build it again?
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: I need to make small testing CD for testing Ubuntu Feisty for local computer shop and they told me, that lots of laptops with ATI X1xxx video cards doesn't work
<tepsipakki> mantiena-baltix: right.. I'll roll a new version for you
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: your xserver-xorg-core_1.2.0-3ubuntu7.4_i386.deb takes about 40 MB after installation, while standart takes only about 10 ..
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: thanks, Lithuanians will not forget you ;)
<tepsipakki> I guess there are a lot of X1xx users who don't forget me :P
<Mirv> I witnessed that ATI X1xxx Mobility doesn's start even in VESA mode. Go ATI!
<tepsipakki> ..with xorg-server-1.2
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: where you will upload stripped xserver-xorg-core_1.2.0-3ubuntu7.4_i386.deb packages ? On http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/dpkg/ ?
<cjwatson_> Hobbsee: don't see an obvious reason why you reassigned bug 109146 from debian-installer to ubiquityt
<ubotu> Malone bug 109146 in ubiquity "unable to get anything installed" [Undecided,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109146
<cjwatson_> -t
<cjwatson_> (not that I want it moved back, but there's no evidence which of them it should be right now)
<Hobbsee> cjwatson_: oh was it debian-installer?  I thought it was the kde upgrader?
<cjwatson_> "Binary package hint: debian-installer"
<Hobbsee> or couldnt tell what the heck it was, or where it would be?
<Hobbsee> hmmm, point.
<cjwatson_> er, it's the installer - either debian-installer or ubiquity
<tepsipakki> mantiena-baltix: it'll be there, but 7.5
<cjwatson_> alternate => debian-installer, desktop => ubiquity
<Hobbsee> ah, right.  sorry, didnt know they were the same
<Hobbsee> cjwatson_: want me to change it back?
<Hobbsee> ahhh
<Hobbsee> oops
* Hobbsee searches on the ground for her brain
<cjwatson_> no, leave it now, like I say there's no evidence which it is - was just wondering why you bothered :)
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: thought debian-installer was some form of universe-y package which definetly didnt fit.  not sure why
<cjwatson> d-i's definitely main :)
<Hobbsee> thought it was some similarly named thing that wasnt :P
<Hobbsee> bah.  didnt you drop d-i when you wrote ubiquity?  :P
<cjwatson> er, hell no ;)
<jsgotangco> haha
<StevenK> ubiquity uses d-i, actually
* Hobbsee notes the :P
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: this is what happens when i run out of chocolate.  strange things happen.
<Hobbsee> i believe it's the same as when humans run out of coffee.
<pitti> Hobbsee: Loving chocolate and hating coffee, I must belong to your species, then
<Hobbsee> pitti: hehe.  are you green?  or purple?
<Hobbsee> and alien-like?
<robertj> (here comes the furry talk again)
<StevenK> Hrrm, I'm related too.
<pitti> Hobbsee: rather brown, see my LP icon https://librarian.launchpad.net/7143516/Pittiplatsch-Kopf-64x64.png
<Hobbsee> robertj: furry talk?
<Hobbsee> pitti: haha
<pitti> Hobbsee: I don't suppose you actually know this figure?
<Hobbsee> pitti: not offhand no
<StevenK> I think I've seen that some place before.
<StevenK> It's ringing a vague bell.
<pitti> it's 'Pittiplatsch', one of the main characters of a famous German evening show for kids
<pitti> and my local nickname, of course
<Treenaks> Pittiplatz? You have an entire square of your own now? :P
<Hobbsee> ahhh
<tepsipakki> mantiena-baltix: the package is ready
<StevenK> pitti: Is it comparable to some other kids show, one that Hobbsee or I might know?
<Treenaks> StevenK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi
<Treenaks> uhr
<Treenaks> StevenK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittiplatsch
<StevenK> Heh
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: thanks
<StevenK> And now that seems so obvious.
<Hobbsee> actually, i may have seen it, or part of it, or similar
<pitti> Treenaks: of course, seen in Sydney: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/tmp/martinplace-pittstreet.jpg
<Treenaks> pitti: cool :)
<StevenK> pitti: I bet you got a kick of that. :-)
<StevenK> kick out of, even
<ion_> pitti: Hehe
<Hobbsee> pitti: haha, yep
<mantiena-baltix> tepsipakki: btw, will new xorg intel drivers (on  http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/dpkg/ I've noticed 2.0.0-1ubuntu1) uploaded to ubuntu-backports ? 
<tepsipakki> mantiena-baltix: remains to be seen
<pitti> speaking about X drivers, 'deb http://mh21.piware.de/debian/ mh21 main' has packages for nouveau (amd64 packages only ATM)
<pitti> ^ for the adventurous testers
<tepsipakki> pitti: there are going to be drivers in debian experimental "soon"
<pitti> tepsipakki: ah, sweet
<pitti> hey mh21
* ogra kicks nfs4 ...
<ogra> hrm :(
<tepsipakki> ogra: if you continue to have problems with it, you can ask on nfsv4@linux-nfs.org for help on the tricky details ;)
<pitti> tepsipakki: is there any concrete work already? mh21 put his git trees there as well, maybe this is of some help
<pitti> tepsipakki: he currently did a separate package for the kernel module; this would need to go into linux-source directly of course, but right now it's good enough for testing
<tepsipakki> pitti: not that I know of, but it was discussed recently
<mh21> tepsipakki: http://mh21.piware.de/git
<tepsipakki> there were two people who volunteered to maintain it
<tepsipakki> mh21: you could mail debian-x about that :)
<tepsipakki> I'm off now ->
<ogra> tepsipakki, well, it seems a tad buggy to me ... my ltsp clients use to create tpmfses for every file thy need writeable ... intrestingly only a bunch of them is ther and a bunch isnt ...
<ogra> seems everything mounting related changes completely with nfsroot in nfs4
<ogra> but i cant find a scheme why some tmpfs mounts work and some dont :/
<StevenK> Right. Now that my Feisty machine has booted with 2.6.17, to find out how to make 2.6.20 boot.
<StevenK> Ah ha. It wants irqpoll
<robertj> are items included in universe considered "part of the normal operating system distribution" for licensing purposes?
<pitti> robertj: we do not 'ship' those in the sense of 'push the bits to the users via CD'
<robertj> pitti: so would linking against openssl be kosher only if it was included on the cd?
<pitti> robertj: no, I don't think so
<pitti> robertj: that distinction makes mainly sense for patent issues, not for GPL compatibility
<robertj> pitti: the openssl faq seemed to indicate otherwise
<robertj> "On many systems including the major Linux and BSD distributions, yes (the GPL does not place restrictions on using libraries that are part of the normal operating system distribution)."
<pitti> robertj: ah; IANAL enough to interpret this properly, I'm afraid
<robertj> pitti: debian-legal seemed to take a pretty strict stance against it in '01 or so, is their opinion gospel or does Canonical have its own suits?
<pitti> robertj: so far I didn't see anyone care in Ubuntu, but we generally follow Debian's lead except when we explicitly discuss things and decide to deviate for some good reasons
<robertj> netatalk is pretty useless as-is. No encrypted passwords, and no passwords longer than 8 characters
<pitti> we don't have 'our own suits' so far at least
<pitti> robertj: it doesn't work with gnutls?
<robertj> pitti: AFAIK no. Mandriva seemed to claim they linked against gnutls but I looked & didn't see that happening
<Keybuk> personally I think debian-legal are far too strict in this case
<Demon012> #ubuntu-motu
<Demon012> oops
<pitti> neither we nor Debian are really consistent in that regard; e. g. a whole lot of GPL apps link against libpq5, which links against openssl
<robertj> Keybuk: my suspicion is that for this particular case, rewriting would be cheaper than paying a decent lawyer to even look it over, but over the whole of main & universe that may not be true
<robertj> (est. ~16hrs implementation by someone who had any prior experience in C)
<pitti> robertj: I figure porting to gnutls should be much easier?
<robertj> pitti: that is what I meant
<robertj> pitti: I think there are some unimplemented features in the gnutls layer, mostly data structures
<Keybuk> a) libssl is a dependency of ubuntu-minimal, so any reasonable interpretation of "the normal operating system distribution" would appear to apply here
<Keybuk> b) the GPL doesn't cover dynamic linking (personal opinion :p)
<robertj> Keybuk: mind if I attach point a to a launchpad bug on this particular package
<iwj> The status of GPL-incompatible programs dynamically linked against GPL'd code is disputed.  Some (including Keybuk it seems) say that there is no problem.  Others (including me) say that it's forbidden unless the system library exception applies.
<Keybuk> "attach point" ?
<robertj> <Keybuk> a) libssl is a dependency of ubuntu-minimal, so any reasonable interpretation of "the normal operating system distribution" would appear to apply here
<robertj>  b) the GPL doesn't cover dynamic linking (personal opinion :p)
<robertj> (well just meant to be a) and not b) but anyway)
<Keybuk> robertj: *shrug* it's not anything useful for a bug, just this developers opinion
<iwj> But NB that the system library exception (what robertj refers to above) definitely cannot help when it's all on the same CD.  (Whether it can help if the components are together in the archive is unclear.)
<Keybuk> why does the system library exception not count if it's on the same CD?
<iwj> The system library exception is GPLv2 s3 2nd main para (after bullet (c)), 2nd half `However ...', right ?
<iwj> But it says `... unless that component [the GPL'd library]  itself accompanies the executable [the GPL-incompatible bit] '.
<Keybuk> right, and that only counts for distributing source code of one's program that derives from something included in the base
<Keybuk> since we'd be distributing source code here, I don't see how that applies
<iwj> So if you put both on the same CD they `accompany' each other.
<Keybuk> that paragraph allows you to copy and paste code from glibc into your program
<Keybuk> and then not distribute the source to that program
<iwj> Err, distribution of just the source is not AFAICT restricted (unless some weird situation exists).  The potential violation is in the distribution of binaries.
* ion_ shivers at the grave accent used as a left single quotation mark. :-)
<iwj> Keybuk: That paragraph was originally intended to allow GPL'd code to be ported to systems with GPL-incompatible libcs.
<Keybuk> iwj: true, but it's also worded loosely enough to allow the opposite
<iwj> ion_: It's a left single quote too, in ASCII.  Just because ISO-646 isn't compatible with ASCII isn't my fault :-).
<Keybuk> it certainly doesn't apply to the OpenSSL case
<iwj> Keybuk: Indeed it applies to the opposite.
<ion_>  :-)
<Keybuk> iwj: IRC's standard character set is not ASCII or ISO-646 ;)
<iwj> Keybuk: UTF-8 is defined as the same as ISO-646 for the codepoint `.  And ISO-646 was allegedly compatible with ASCII.
<iwj> So you newfangled people are supposed to be compatible with my usage.  Go fix your standard :-).
<Keybuk> iwj: UTF-8 is not the standard character set for IRC either
<iwj> What character set do you claim to be using ?
<ion_> So fonts should render ` as a ? What should one do when she actually wants a grave accent? :-)
<Spads> the standard character set for IRC is now PETSCII.  I have decreed it.
<Keybuk> IRC uses a bizarre finish character set
<iwj> I bet it claims to be compatible with ASCII for the codepoint `.
<Keybuk> this is demonstrable by the fact you can message {PUPPETS}Gone instead of [PUPPETS] Gone
<Hobbsee> Spads: hah.  good luck with that
<ogra> root@edubuntu:~# mount|grep fstab
<ogra> tmpfs on /etc/fstab type tmpfs (rw)
<ogra> root@edubuntu:~# cat /etc/fstab
<ogra> # UNCONFIGURED FSTAB FOR BASE SYSTEM
<ogra> root@edubuntu:~# echo "blupp" >/etc/fstab
<Keybuk> err, s/Gone/Gonzo/
<ogra> root@edubuntu:~# cat /etc/fstab
<Keybuk> :p
<ogra> # UNCONFIGURED FSTAB FOR BASE SYSTEM
<ogra> GRRRR !!!!!
<ion_> IRC originally used the bizarre Finnish character set, but AFAIR the spec doesnt actually specify anything else than that it is just octet streams.
<iwj> For OpenSSL you can make the system library exception apply if `that component' (eg, OpenSSL) doesn't accompany `the executable' (here, the GPL'd library).
<Keybuk> iwj: yes, but what good does the system library exception grant you?
<Keybuk> the system library exception ONLY grants you the ability to not distribute sourece to either
<iwj> Keybuk: It permits you to fail to licence the `whole work' (actual program + openssl + gpl lib) under GPLv2.
<Keybuk> iwj: no it doesn't
<Keybuk> it's very explicit in what it permits
<Keybuk>  However, as a
<Keybuk> special exception, the source code distributed need not include
<Keybuk> anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary
<Keybuk> form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the
<Keybuk> operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component
<Keybuk> itself accompanies the executable.
<Keybuk> -- 
<Keybuk> it permits you to not need to distribute the compiler, libc, etc. with your source
<Keybuk> (headers for those)
<iwj> `The source code distributed need not include anything [OpenSSL]  that is normally distributed ... unless [OpenSSL]  accompanies the executable'
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> read the whole paragraph
<iwj> I have read it (obviously).
<Keybuk> it defines "source code" immediately above it
<iwj> Yes.
<Keybuk> and what it defines it as is not compatible with [OpenSSL] 
<iwj> You think the source to OpenSSL isn't part of the `source code for a work' ?
<geser> Seveas: could you fix the LP url for Daniel at https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers/+poll/cc2007-dholbach/ ? the c and h are transposed
<Keybuk> yes
<iwj> That depends on what you think `work' is.
<Keybuk> unless you are arguing that OpenSSL is a "module contained" by the binary?
<iwj> But if you are right then the system library exception is irrelevant since you're home free anyway.
<iwj> I contend that `the work' is libssl + /usr/bin/program + libc + libgplthing
<Keybuk> I content that the GPL doesn't say that
<iwj> Yes, I know.
<Keybuk> The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
<Keybuk> making modifications to it.  For an executable work, complete source
<Keybuk> code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any
<Keybuk> associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to
<Keybuk> control compilation and installation of the executable.
<iwj> You said that earlier./
* ogra cries ...
<iwj> Please stop pasting the GPL into channel.  I have it over -> there.
<ogra> my OS ignores me :(
<Keybuk> so is OpenSSL a module it contains?
<iwj> I asserted that the status of this situation was disputed, which you must agree with ?
<Keybuk> oh, I entirely agree it's disputed
<iwj> And this dispute divides the two of us and I was carefully trying to avoid having to have it here.
<iwj> But I also asserted that the system library exception is no help except in some subtle cases.
<Keybuk> personally I believe that use of a library through its published interfaces cannot possibly be considered anything other than "use" of that library, so not covered by copyright
<iwj> Sure you must agree with that ?
<iwj> In particular it is no help in this case.
<iwj> The reason you disagree with me is nothing to do with the system library exception.
<Keybuk> I don't think the system library exception even applies without my interpretation
<Keybuk> correct
* pygi created a special add-on to libburnia's GPL licence to cover linking
<pygi> oh well
<iwj> You think the system library exception is pointless because the preconditions don't apply and I think it is useless because if the preconditions apply you usually find that the `accompany' bit bites you.
<siretart> whats the problem? cdrtools?
<Keybuk> but I also disagree that even assuming the "traditional" application of the GPL to dynamic linking, that the system library exeception doesn't apply here anyway
<iwj> You disagree that it doesn't apply ?  Eh ?
<iwj> Do you mean you think it applies or doesn't ?
<Keybuk> since OpenSSL is none of the things listed in the paragraph where the exception to not distribute them is granted
<iwj> I think you have misunderstood what you describe as `the "traditional" application of the GPL to dynamic linking'.
<Keybuk> no, I don't think I have
<pygi> siretart: you've got a pm :)
<Keybuk> I think that if the GPL covers dynamic linking, then the work is inherently a derivation of OpenSSL
<Keybuk> so OpenSSL is a consituent part of the work
<iwj> The broad interpretation follows from the `work as a whole', 2nd main para of s2.
<Keybuk> so thus isn't covered by the exception, which is only for auxiliary pieces needed to build it
<iwj> I argue that if you distribute /usr/bin/program + openssl + libc + libgpl then the _combination_ is a `work as a whole'.
<iwj> Now I agree that the wording isn't entirely clear and I can see that people might reasonably disagree.
<Keybuk> I would agree there
<iwj> But if you agree with that, then `work' in s3 means all of those four parts together.
<Keybuk> and that those things are not covered by the exception
<iwj> And OpenSSL is definitely contained in it.
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> so work includes those parts
<iwj> Right.
<Keybuk> and the exception doesn't cover those parts
<iwj> Oh, good, you seem to be agreeing with me now.  I mean, apart from the dispute about work as a whole.
<iwj> I would say that you could use the system library exception for openssl but only if you don't distribute thje four pieces together.
<iwj> Or at least there are some combinations where it might apply.
<iwj> Eg, if you distribute only /usr/bin/program and rely on the system's libgpl and openssl.
<iwj> If `you' isn't the OS distributor then you're probably covered by the exception.
<Treenaks> *brain hurts*
<iwj> And AFAICT you can distribute /usr/bin/program+libgpl even.  That's just the same as the FSF were doing with Solaris shellutils, really.
<Keybuk> assuming you decide that OpenSSL is distributed "with" one of the major components like the compiler, or kernel, yes
<iwj> Yes.
<Keybuk> except then you get bitten because the compiler is distributed by the FTP archive
<Keybuk> so arguably anything on the FTP archive is distributed "with" the compiler
<iwj> Yes.
<iwj> Which is why this exception is really hard to use _for the OS vendor_ which is entirely the idea AIUI.
<iwj> Ie, the os library exception doesn't help Debian or Ubuntu.
<Keybuk> ok, it sounds like we were arguing the same thing at different points, with different language :)
<iwj> Good :-).
<Treenaks> it only helps debian's or ubuntu's users, if they recompile $program with ssl support
<iwj> Treenaks: Right.
<Keybuk> (of course, I believe the above conclusion is bullshit, but it helps to be able to argue from other people's stand points)
<iwj> And random 3rd parties.
<Treenaks> (which is teh suck, as I want ubuntu, not gentoo, for a reason)
<iwj> Keybuk: Well, yes.  But it's worth considering because _if_ the os library exception were useful it might avoid having to worry about `work as a whole'.
<Treenaks> (I've been bitten by this thing quite a few times now.. *sigh* @ freeradius+{postgresql/libssl})
<robertj> Treenaks: did you end up moving over to gnutls?
<iwj> Treenaks: Welcome to politics, unfortunately.  Politics is about disagreements so obviously things turn out awkward.
<iwj> Just be glad we're relatively civilised and that you don't have swordsmen or thugs settling these arguments nowadays.
<jsgotangco> lol
* robertj yearns for the days when questions of linking could be resolved by the joust
<Keybuk> the sword seems somewhat more humane than the court
<Treenaks> robertj: freeradius + gnutls doesn't work, and still links in libssl through postgresql, which also doesn't quite work with gnutls, afaik
<Keybuk> Treenaks: I have a more fun one
<Keybuk> Debian haven't distributed a piece of my software because it "links with" OpenSSL
<Treenaks> Keybuk: which piece of software?
<Keybuk> live-f1
<Treenaks> that still works? cool :)
<Keybuk> except live-f1 doesn't link with OpenSSL
<Keybuk> it links with the GPL'd libneon
<Keybuk> which Debian happen to build linked against OpenSSL
<Keybuk> I offered a Debian-specific exception to allow linking against things linked with OpenSSL
<Keybuk> they didn't like that idea much either :)
<Treenaks> which makes it debian-specific, which isn't allowed either.. argh :)
<iwj> Why not NMU libneon to build against gnutls ? :-)
<iwj> `fixes RC bug'
<root___> exit
<Keybuk> because that breaks things, iirc
<root___> quit
<iwj> Oh, how annoying.
<Keybuk> I had a fun suggestion
<Treenaks> iwj: because it might conflict with other (BSD-licensed) packages, that are linked to libneon? :P
<Keybuk> since it is generally believed that the GPL *doesn't* cover use of command-line programs
<Keybuk> write a program that exposes all of the OpenSSL API via a command-line tool
<Treenaks> Keybuk: like.. 'openssl'!
<Keybuk> and "thunks" all usage of OpenSSL through that helper
<iwj> My laywers will see that dodge in court.
<Keybuk> they might
<iwj> Well, actually, they won't.  The Qt people already did it with dpkg and the FSF were wimps.
<Keybuk> exactly
<Keybuk> because the FSF already encountered this
<Keybuk> when someone had their proprietary debugger used by emacs ;)
<iwj> I have no idea why the FSF were wimps.  I think it's because RMS is stuck in the 1970s when `program' meant `executable text with a single symbol table'.
<iwj> Keybuk: They had this with GCC and Objective C, didn't they ?
<Keybuk> could be
<iwj> They put the boot in there.  I don't think they've thought about these things clearly because (see above).
<Keybuk> I agree
<Keybuk> personally I think if you stick to the interfaces exposed by a library, then you're "using" not "deriving"
<Keybuk> and if you add your own interfaces to satisfy your program, you're clearly deriving
<Keybuk> likewise for command-line apps
<Treenaks> Keybuk: what about _using _internal _functions()
<iwj> TBPH I wouldn't be at all surprised if a court decided that Ubuntu was a `work as a whole'.
<iwj> Which would be quite a PITA.
<Keybuk> Treenaks: internal functions are arguably not part of the published interface, so derivation, depending on author preference
<Keybuk> iwj: quite
<iwj> I think that's the plain meaning of the text but custom and practice dictate otherwise.  Which leaves grey areas, well, grey.
<iwj> The previous GPLv3 draft had a much better approach to this IIRC.  Unfortunately the latest one is an enormous mess.
<[knap] > can anyone take a look at this bug report related to alsa? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/alsa-utils/+bug/92889
<ubotu> Malone bug 92889 in alsa-utils "Low sound volume" [Undecided,Confirmed]  
<crimsun> [knap] : a fix for that has been committed (some time ago, in fact - Wed Apr 4 23:50:32 2007 -0400)
<crimsun> [knap] : it's also incorrectly filed against alsa-utils, but I'll triage it.
<[knap] > crimsun i first noticied this bug in feitsy herd5 now i'm using feitsy final and this bug still exists
<crimsun> [knap] : that's because the fix is not present in the kernel shipped with 7.04. It will be in a post-release kernel update.
<[knap] > ok, can i do anything to fix it till the new kernel is shipped?
<crimsun> [knap] : pastebin the output from ``lspci -vvn'' for me, and tell me the url
<[knap] > ok
<crimsun> [knap] : also, let's migrate to #ubuntu - this channel is strictly for development, not support.
<[knap] > ok
<pitti> seb128, Riddell: now that we have avahi by default, do you see any reason to keep the control center patches for disabling/enabling it?
<pitti> seb128, Riddell: I'm merging avahi and wonder whether it is worth the trouble to keep enable_avahi and check_avahi
<seb128> pitti: no
<Riddell> pitti: might people not want an easy way to turn it off?
<seb128> Riddell: do you have a services manager with KDE?
<pitti> Riddell: you can still turn it off in /etc/default/avahi, question is why normal people would want to
<Riddell> seb128: yes, that's a good alternative 
<Riddell> pitti: I don't mind really
<pitti> Riddell, seb128: ok, so let's make all our lives a bit easier and just drop this, shall we?
<seb128> pitti: WFM
<jwendell> seb128, hi!
<seb128> hey jwendell
<jwendell> seb128, can i set my repositories to gutsy in order to keep my work on a up-to-date system?
<seb128> yes you can
<seb128> it's not going to be stable though
<seb128> lot of things are going to change quickly once it's open and we start syncs on Debian and new uploads ;)
<pitti> now with etch being out of the door, the unstable merge will bring some new good (and bad) crack :)
<ogra> yeah
<Riddell> pitti: ok
<hunger> When is the merge about to begin?
* hunger is *booooorrrrreddd* since his box stopped auto-breaking each morning;-)
* pitti is already merging happily and stacking uploads on chinstrap
<hunger> So when will g* hit the archive? After your conference I guess?
<ogra> hunger, break it manually ? 
<ogra> dont always rely on us to brek your box please !
<ogra> *break
<zul> hunger: do something interesting like take the ram out of the box and see if it boots
<hunger> ogra: You are the professionals! I can only break stuff in a pretty amateurish way. And besides: If I break it, I know where to look to fix stuff:-)
<ogra> hunger, just post your IP and ssh credential for your box ... then :P
<pygi> ogra: you don't even need more then IP :P
<hunger> ogra: I might use unstable ubuntu distributions on a "production box", but I am not that stupid!
<Mithrandir> hunger: we had a small hiccup with gcc.  Assuming that builds fine we're looking at opening gutsy properly on Wednesday, I think.
<ogra> heh
<Mithrandir> maybe a bit earlier, but realistically not.
<pygi> yay, by then I should have packages ready  :-D
<muszek> hi... can someone please tell me where is Ubuntu Open Week held?  Some IRC channel?
<ogra> yes, should be written on the wikipage
<pitti> muszek: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
<muszek> pitti, ogra: it's not written there
<harrisony> muszek: /j #ubuntu-classroom
<pitti> muszek: 'joining in'
<harrisony> and /j #ubuntu-classroom-chat NOW! jono is talking as we speek
<muszek> harrisony: thanks
<harrisony> *speak
<ogra> muszek, its written here :) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Rules
<muszek> ogra: yep, I missed that.  Thanks and sorry.
* hunger hopes that firehol will get fixed in gutsy. That feisty breaks it is extremly annoying.
<ogra> (behind the bold link that says "please read" :) on the other page)
<sharms> the openweek wiki entry is not intuitive at all
<sharms> it would be much better to have the irc address on the main page
<sharms> since inevitably everyone needs it
<ogra> well, the whole text of the "please read" page should go on the first page right at the top imho
<ogra> but jono will have had his reasons to put it like that 
<sharms> thats what I figured so I left it alone
<ogra> did the old mozilla get dropped completely in feisty ? 
<LaserJock> I believe so
<ogra> sbalneav, ^^^
<ogra> could some KDE user check if its ture that gpm breaks kde like described here ?: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-users/2007-April/112362.html 
<ogra> *true
<nixternal> I will ogra 
<ogra> thanks
* nixternal installs ubuntu-desktop (grrr eww) :p
<nixternal> so the problem is, gnome-power-manager working/trying to work in kde, now I wonder if Guidance is also trying to work at the same time
<ogra> ergh
<ogra> you could have gnome with just installing g-p-m :)
<ogra> g-p-m adds itself to /etc/xdg/autostart ... i assume KDE reads that
<sbalneav> LaserJock: Who must I bribe to get it put back in Universe?
<LaserJock> sbalneav: man, all about the bribery ;-)
<sbalneav> I am willing to offer much beer and meat.
<harrisony> and beer
<LaserJock> sbalneav: maybe shoot an email to ubuntu-motu with the reasons you need it.
<sbalneav> ubuntu-motu@ubuntu.com?
<LaserJock> lists.ubuntu.com
<sbalneav> ok
<poningru> sbalneav: gnomefreak is working on getting seamonkey uploaded
<sbalneav> I'll have to subscibe, I suspect
<gnomefreak> not atm im not
<poningru> keep in mind after 1.7.3 support for mozilla suite was dropped by mofo
<poningru> or I guess not?
<poningru> wth
<gnomefreak> i will be uploading it as soon as i can
<poningru> gnomefreak: is anyone working on that?
<gnomefreak> poningru: i have to respin it for gutsy first it may be a couple of weeks
<gnomefreak> im upgrading my chroot atm
<gnomefreak> poningru: there are some merges that need to be done before iceape shows up in gutsy
<poningru> oy ve
<poningru> again with the iceape
* poningru looks at asac 
<gnomefreak> poningru: thats what it will be
<poningru> yeah yeah I know
<asac> poningru: so what is your point?
<groo_> hi/2 all, any ubuntu dev awake? :)
<nixternal> ogra: OK, I have it setup, and I don't see gnome-power-manager running at in when booted into Kubuntu
<nixternal> I wonder if it is when I might switch users, and have one logged into KDE and one into GNOME
<groo_> anyone is able to add a usb epson printer with kprinter?
<groo_> kprinter has the local printer greyed out :(
<nixternal> groo_: you have stumbled upon a devel channel, for support you need to try out #kubuntu or #ubuntu
<nixternal> our devs are currently taking naps after the Feisty release :)
<Zober> hey i know this isnt the right chat for this, but i am desperate need of assistance with VB6 for a final exam/project.  Can anyone help me with MDI forms in VB6 please?
<ogra> nixternal, pfft, naps are for wimps ... we prepeare to break the world atm :)
<pitti> Zober: this is about as far away from ubuntu development as you can get
<groo_> nixternal: its a develop problem.. usb printer support is broken, also the libgphoto timeout is set too low (500ms)...
<asac> Zober: ... this is not a wrong place to ask that, but a *bad* place
<nixternal> ogra: I am waiting to break the world
<nixternal> pitti: hahaha, I froze, I didn't know how to respond
<Zober> i cant figure out how to define form sizes for MDI child objects, it seems to define them based on the size of the MDI form
<Zober> I know guys, i am so sorry, the VB channel is lazy and no one knows what they are talking about
<pitti> Zober: try using glade instead :)
<Zober> I promise im normally an all out linux guy, but this is for a class i am required to take and VB6 is as retarded a language as can be
<BenC> How do I request that a package in mom be reverted and sycned directly with debian, trashing all of our ubuntu changes?
<Zober> >_< Professor knows nothing about any other programming other than VB so he forced us all to use VB6 to write a final project >_<
<ogra> yeah, gtk/glade works fine on windows i heard
<thom> Zober: please stop, you're so far off topic it's not funny
<ogra> python as well ...
<nixternal> Zober: I have to use VB.NET for a class I am taking, so I understand the grief
<harrisony> !offtopic
<ubotu> #ubuntu is the Ubuntu support channel, #ubuntu+1 supports the development version of Ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic is for random chatter. Welcome!
<Zober> nixternal, have you had to deal with MDI forms? and child objects?
<nixternal> #ubuntu-offtopic and we can chat
<Zober> ok, once again guys sorry to ask questions so off topic
<cjwatson> BenC: requestsync(1)
<cjwatson> except maybe not so much with the (1) since it has no man page. /me glares at pitti
<BenC> cjwatson: I was just about to say :) thanks
<cjwatson> BenC: in any case, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess
<keescook> cjwatson: the publisher is on automatic again?  (i.e. will security updates go through without me needing to bug someone?)
<pitti> cjwatson: manpage> *cough*, noted
<cjwatson> cjwatson@drescher:~$ sudo -u lp_publish crontab -l | grep cron.daily
<cjwatson> 3 * * * * /srv/launchpad.net/codelines/current/cronscripts/publishing/cron.daily
<cjwatson> keescook: ^-- yes
<keescook> cjwatson: okay, thanks.  :)
<Seveas> geser, lp sez: Only polls that are not yet opened can be edited. As soon as a poll opens it can't be edited anymore.
<robertj> iwj: so err, I read the scrollback, went home, took a nap, reread the scrollback, and it makes a bit of sense...so is there a consensus on whether we can link against libopenssl if its not shipped on the CD?
<robertj> (it being the program linking against it, we assume openssl will be on the cd)
<Mithrandir> robertj: we ship DVDs too, so please don't assume anything based on what happens to be on the CDs today.
<robertj> Mithrandir: well that could be fixed by having an alternate version of the package available in multiverse right?
<Mithrandir> robertj: no, if you have two free programs with incompatible licences where one links to the other it's undistributable, not non-free.
<robertj> Mithrandir: I think its a bit more complicated than that here, read the scroll back from 9:17-10:08
<robertj> (EST)
<XOP> UBUNTU UR MUM
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o Mithrandir]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+b *!*i=Jay@*.cable.ubr09.edin.blueyonder.co.uk]  by Mithrandir
* XOP was kicked off #ubuntu-devel by Mithrandir (Mithrandir)
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-b *!*i=Jay@*.cable.ubr09.edin.blueyonder.co.u]  by Mithrandir
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o minghua]  by Mithrandir
<Mithrandir> oops
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o Mithrandir]  by Mithrandir
<Mithrandir> there
* mc44 ducks
<Mithrandir> robertj: why do you think so?
<psusi> these days X internally handles fonts instead of using the font server right?
<Mithrandir> psusi: lots of apps uses client-side fonts, yes.
<psusi> do gnome apps render true type fonts themselves rather than have the X server render them?  and non X apps like emacs just let the X server render the non true type fonts?
<divrapier> hello. can a developer guess, why ubuntu 6.0.6 wont boot, and stop after selecting 'start or install' on a pentiumD805 with asus p5b?
<mrsno> im not a developer but problems with the p965 chipset most likely divrapier 
<mrsno> support questions aren't meant for here really so check in #ubuntu  , but dapper doesn't have a new enough kernel to boot 100% with those chipsets to the best of my knowledge
<Mithrandir> psusi: yes, AIUI.
<harrisony> divrapier: #ubuntu
<sharms> should I file a bug on xorg for a memory leak?
<sharms>  4923 root      15   0  916m 768m  18m S    5 37.9 342:52.82 Xorg          
<psusi> I see... hrm....
<psusi> sharms: what makes you think it is leaking?
<sharms> not sure intended behavior is to take up 3/4 a gig of memory?
<sharms> call me crazy..
<Chipzz> sharms: you're crazy
<psusi> do you have a half gig of video ram?  a leak means it grows over time
<Chipzz> sharms: those numbers are hardly accurate
<Mithrandir> sharms: "X leaks memory" would be a useless bug anyway, you need to spend time to track down what causes a leak, for instance.
<sharms> Chipzz: what do you suggest I use?
<Chipzz> errr
<Chipzz> what are these tools called
<Chipzz> there are definately tools that will give you a better idea
<Chipzz> but relying on top is stupid
<Mithrandir> valgrind with various skins, pmap.
<Chipzz> and you're very likely to be plain incorrect when you rely on numbers from top to make such a statement ;P
<Chipzz> which is not to say X doesn't leak memory, it may very well do so; but most likely not for the reasons you think it is leaking memory
<sharms> then I should file a bug against top, since nowhere in the manpage does it say ignore information top provides?
<robertj> Mithrandir: if I'm following the line of discussion properly, since openssl is customarily distributed with ubuntu as a dependency of -minimal it might fall under the system library exception
<psusi> top is fine... it's just that most people panic when they see X using a lot of ram like you just did, when most of it is simply the video ram on the card
<Chipzz> sharms: no you shouldn't
<Chipzz> sharms: there is no bug
<Chipzz> (most likely)
<Chipzz> sharms: but for example open gnome system monitor and take a look there
<Chipzz> it will give you very different figures
<psusi> huh?  they should give the same numbers?
<Chipzz> psusi: gnome system monitor is showing you different things, hence different numbers
<sharms> gnome-system-monitor provides the same information as top.
<Chipzz> psusi: gnome system monitor is showing you "Writable Memory", which *is* what you actually care about
<psusi> aye
<Chipzz> sharms: no it does not
<sharms> Chipzz: how so? I am looking at it right now.
<Chipzz> sharms: gnome system monitor gives you writable memory, while top gives you total memory
<psusi> it says it is showing resident memory, which should be rss
<sharms> I am looking at the RSS field in top and the memory field on gnome-system-monitor
<Chipzz> RSS is 69MB here; writable memory is 59MB
<psusi> they agree for me too
<Mithrandir> robertj: and it could easily enough be argued that all packages in Ubuntu accompany each other.
<psusi> that's fine chipz, but by default g-s-m doesn't show writable memory by default, it shows resident memory
<psusi> which is the same as the res column in top
<robertj> Mithrandir: although OpenSSL's faq seems to indicate that it doesn't support that reading
<sharms> My writable memory is 749MB.
<Chipzz> there were actually patches to gsm for "easier memory profiling"; for example, taking into account memory that different instances of the same library share etc
<Mithrandir> robertj: doesn't support my reading or your reading?
<Mithrandir> robertj: it is in any case irrelevant since they're not the ones who have software licenced under the GPL so they can hardly interpret the GPL on behalf of others.
<robertj> Mithrandir: "On many systems including the major Linux and BSD distributions, yes (the GPL does not place restrictions on using libraries that are part of the normal operating system distribution)."
<Chipzz> sharms: do you know what mmap'ing is for example?
<psusi> Chipzz: howso?  pick one process to bill for the memory and don't count it in the others?
<sharms> Chipzz: yes but I don't see how you are helping this situation
<sharms> I would rather wait until someone with more xorg specific experience can clarify things
<psusi> sharms: typically the problem is that the x server mmaps the video ram, so it looks like it is using a lot of memory, when most of it is on the video card, not main ram
<Chipzz> sharms: the video memory is mmap'ed into the Xorg server for example
<Chipzz> which is why it appears to consume so much memory
<johanbr> sharms: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2007-March/022219.html
<Mithrandir> robertj: at least I, and I believe the other archive administrators agree with me, that we work along the stricter interpretation I showed above.
<sharms> johanbr: I understand that, but this guys RSS is 56m, mine is 769m
<sharms> and I can guarantee my card does not have 700 megs of memory
<sharms> I will assume since I have another ati card in the system next to me with the same software versions that is not exhibiting this behavior that it is most likely the fglrx driver, since the other system is using the open source radeon driver
<psusi> sharms: how much does it use after a reboot is the important question
<psusi> as an aside, I am very pleased that the feisty livecd correctly supports 3d accel on my radeon x850 with the open source driver
<psusi> mesa seems to be making progress
<sharms> ok
<sharms> X uses 26m RSS at start
<sharms> can anyone repaste my lines from above with the last numbers?
<psusi> oh wow....
<psusi> sharms>	 4923 root 15 0 916m 768m  18m S 5 37.9 342:52.82 Xorg 
<sharms> thanks
<psusi> that's one hell of a leak
<sharms> yeah I will see if i can reproduce it
<deep> hi 
<deep> I want to add a new package to Ubuntu
<deep> wso2wsas is a java based middleware server 
<deep> anybody out there . .?
<ivoks> deep: #ubuntu-motu
<deep> ivoks:thanks
* psusi curses imake
<blackskad> hi all, is there anyone here from the desktop team?
<ProN00b> congrats to the devs, upgrade to fawn was really painless
<Arby> oops
<Arby> sorry wrong chan
<psusi> was there a significant change to fonts between dapper and edgy?  like their format changed or something?
#ubuntu-devel 2007-04-24
* #ubuntu-devel  [freenode-info]  if you need to send private messages, please register: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg
<mneptok> WOOOT! LP is back!
<bhale> mneptok: really?
<mneptok> bhale: well .... *mostly*
<mneptok> :/
<bhale> oh
<bhale> there it is
<mneptok> it's rather slow
<bhale> i am still annoyed by having to dig up "ubuntu" project
<bhale> and then my package
<ajmitch> hello bhale, mneptok 
<bhale> hi ajmitch 
<zul> hey ajmitch and mneptok 
<ajmitch> what's up?
<qiyong> i want to join
<zul> ajmitch: not much just got back from the hospital again?
<ajmitch> fun
<zul> not particulairly
<grayman> qiyong, join where?
<qiyong> grayman, anything
<grayman> ...
<qiyong> grayman, i understand kernel well, i like C, shell
<grayman> erm. did you read anything from what is in the topic?
<grayman> also a nice skill :)
<qiyong> yes, i read some from the website
<micahcowan> qiyong, "#ubuntu-motu for getting involved with development" :)
<qiyong> i installed a feisty amd64 on my notebook with deboostrap, etc
<qiyong> micahcowan, seems there are for packaging mainly
<micahcowan> qiyong, that's a huge part of what developing for Ubuntu is. Without packaging, it's just "development" (not Ubuntu-specific).
<qiyong> micahcowan, yeah, as a distro
<micahcowan> They do discuss more than packaging, however. In any case, that's where you go to find out how to get involved in developing for Ubuntu.
<qiyong> packaging is ok for me too
<psusi> is there a way I can get access to build servers for the other platforms to work on a pakage that fails to compile except on i386 and amd64 ( the two that I have )?
<tonyyarusso> psusi: ping imbrandon 
<psusi> k
<fabbione> morning
<ajmitch> morning fabbione 
<Treenaks> Argh :) My modem seems to work (finally; sl-modem).. but I just ditched my analog phone line :)
<Treenaks> so I can't test it
<ajmitch> hey daniel
<dholbach> good morning
<dholbach> hey andrew
<poningru> jdub: ping
<poningru> nvm
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> hey pitti
<mdke> something broken in feisty-updates with tzdata?
<Mithrandir> morning, Pitti
<pitti> mdke: hm? --verbose please?
<Mithrandir> pitti: you played with noveau yesterday?  How well did it work?
<pitti> Mithrandir: well, it came up to gdm, and then X crashed at session login
<Mithrandir> ugh, ok.
<pitti> Mithrandir: I need to try this again on a live system
<Mithrandir> so Not There Yet.
<pitti> Mithrandir: it works well for the amd64/GeForce 6600 of mh21
<pitti> Mithrandir: they definitively do not support 3D ATM, so it might be that something triggered glx
<mdke> pitti: upgrade-manager says:
<pitti> Mithrandir: I'll play around with that a bit later again
<Mithrandir> pitti: any idea if they do dualhead yet?
<pitti> Mithrandir: no, sorry, no idea
<mdke> pitti: damn, can't paste what it says. Anyway, it's a 404
<pitti> mdke: indeed
<pitti> wget http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/t/tzdata/tzdata_2007e-0ubuntu0.7.04_all.deb -> 404
<mdke> that's the one
<pitti> ~prop1 still works
<pitti> hm, I can't see anything wrong with it on drescher
<pitti> mdke: thanks for bringing this up, I'll contact the soyuz guys
<crimsun> 91.189.88.40 is the offending IP.
<crimsun> 88.{31,42} and 89.6 are fine
<mdke> pitti: cool
<pitti> oh, then it's rather a mirroring problem
<ajmitch> Mithrandir: afaik dualhead with nouveau is still some way off for many cards 
<mdke> mine is archive.u.c
<ajmitch> morning sabdfl 
<mdke> morning sabdfl 
<sabdfl> morning all
<pitti> hey sabdfl
<Hobbsee> hi all
<ajmitch> hey Hobbsee :)
<Hobbsee> :)
<pitti> mdke: ah, I got the RT ticket number for that: #27742, in case you want to make inquiries yourself
<mdke> pitti: no worries, I'm happy to wait. I can't see RT tickets anyway :)
<pitti> mdke: no, but you can ask in #c-s about them
<mdke> pitti: ok thanks. I'm happy to wait for it to be resolved
<pitti> great
<siretart> keescook: thanks for handling the rdesktop issue for dapper and edgy
<ajmitch> hi siretart 
<siretart> hi ajmitch 
<\sh> moins simira 
<\sh> aehm
<\sh> siretart, 
<\sh> I mean
<pitti> hey seb128
<seb128> hey pitti
<siretart> hi \sh 
<ion_> you.each {|person| hi person }
<siretart> ruby?
<ion_> That.
<pitti>  p  Persons. hello(p)
* Hobbsee eyes pitti warily
<ion_> :-)
* pitti hugs Mithrandir for fixing merges.ubuntu.com
<ajmitch> it's back? yay!
<ajmitch> now we can see what work we have to do
<seb128> now we only need to get gutsy running ;)
<ajmitch> "soon"
<Hobbsee> hah
<Treenaks> bzr.dev is 666 days old today :)
<zyga> morning :-)
<zyga> mvo: hey
<mvo> hey zyga
<zyga> mvo: I have a question about gnome-app-install
<mvo> zyga: sure, fire
<zyga> how did you get all the icons out?
<zyga> I mean: there are muliple themes
<zyga> how did you associate exact icon with each icon entry in the desktop files?
<mvo> zyga: searching multiple directories for icons and have a order of preferences
<zyga> mhm
<zyga> and you extract all the icons from main and universe and pack it along with their desktop files?
<mvo> zyga: yes
<mvo> zyga: well, not all of them of course, only one for each application
<lifeless> dholbach: is the motutools rename still needed ?
<dholbach> lifeless: yes. TheMuso: ?
<lifeless> dholbach: this will break bzr urls for everyone
<yondie> anyone is it possible to use synaptic with a https_proxy ?
<lifeless> sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~FOO/motutools/trunk will become sftp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~FOO/ubuntu-dev-tools/trunk
<lifeless> dholbach: ready for that ?
<mvo> yondie: if you have apt-transport-https installed, that should work, you need to set the https_proxy environ IIRC
<StevenK> Does bzr able to easy change parent branches?
<lifeless> StevenK: pull --remember 
<StevenK> Hrm. That sentence is gramatically interesting.
<lifeless> StevenK: and bind to change checkouts.
<yondie> mvo: i`ve done dat, it works with aptitude and apt-get but not really in synaptic 
<lifeless> well, bind for heavyweight checkouts
<mvo> yondie: sounds like a bug then, could you please report it in LP? 
<pitti> Mithrandir, doko: I have tzdata fixed and properly tested for bug 108995; ok to upload?
<ubotu> Malone bug 108995 in tzdata "Asks configuration questions at priority high on upgrade" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/108995
<StevenK> lifeless: Personally, as long as people were notified and told how to deal, I don't see it being much of a problem.
<dholbach> lifeless: yes
<lifeless> StevenK: sure, neither do i, but until dholbach is ready I'm not going to push the button :)
<dholbach> StevenK: we're discussing it on the motu list atm, no?
<StevenK> Right.
<lifeless> dholbach: done.
<dholbach> thanks
<infinity> pitti: Please do.
<StevenK> infinity!
<StevenK> infinity: Where have you been hiding?
<pitti> infinity: uploaded
<infinity> StevenK: Broke all my fingers, couldn't IRC.
<pitti> ugh, really?
<infinity> No. :)
<StevenK> Hah
<siretart> mvo: how to enable unattended-upgrades on an ubuntu-server without X and gnome?
<mvo> siretart: add 'APT::Periodic::Unattended-Upgrade "1";' to /etc/apt/apt.conf (to run it daily)
<mvo> siretart: you can also make it mail you the logs 
<siretart> mvo: how?
<mvo> siretart: how to mail? it should be in the README of unattended-upgrades, its just an additional apt config var that needs to go to apt.conf 
<siretart> mvo: at least the package in feisty does not ship any readme, that's why I'm asking
<siretart> mvo: aah, there is one in the source package
<mvo> siretart: a BUG! 
* mvo grumbles about himself
<siretart> mvo: if gutsy was open, I'd already have it "NMU'ed" ;)
<mvo> I guess I should talk to the sru team if its ok to do a sru upload for unattneded-upgrades to include the missing README (hello pitti :)
<ssam> bug 84918
<ubotu> Malone bug 84918 in unattended-upgrades "package should set up sensible config" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/84918
<pitti> mvo: hm?
<pitti> mvo: oh, include a new file in /usr/share/doc/<package>? sounds innocent enough
<mvo> pitti: cool, thanks. I prepare it now
<doko> mdz, cjwatson, Mithrandir: planned the email to -announce when the packages are in the archive. this (late) afternoon
<mdz> doko: thanks
<`23meg> Hobbsee, the doc is finished, more or less
<`23meg> it's on gobby, can you take a look?
<Hobbsee> `23meg: great.  and that requires installing gobby :P
<`23meg> oh
* Hobbsee looks up info
<`23meg> shall i mail it if that's not convenient?
<Hobbsee> whichever is fine
<Hobbsee> gobby lags for me, but it hsouldnt matter if i'm not editing it in real time
<Mithrandir> pitti: doesn't look urgent?
<Hobbsee> THE LAG!  IT BURNS!!!!
<Mithrandir> hiya Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> hi Mithrandir!
<pitti> Mithrandir: I thought the same, but Matthias said it would be better to fix it soon, otherwise every developer would see those questions
<Mithrandir> pitti: people shouldn't upgrade to gutsy yet.
<Mithrandir> pitti: but sure, feel free to upload and I'll make sure it gets in with the first round of builds.
<pitti> Mithrandir: *shrug* I uploaded it to the queue after infinity's 'please do', but feel free to just leave it there
<Mithrandir> pitti: I'll let it in once the current mess is solved.
<pitti> thank you
<pitti> Mithrandir: oh, it's still that messy?
<Mithrandir> pitti: apparently something is broken right now; Adam told me about it, but I'm not sure exactly what it is.
<StevenK> Hrm. I have two gutsy chroots, but I'm in no way attached to them.
* Mithrandir takes one of SK's gutsy chroots and bolts it to his knee
<StevenK> Your knee? :-P
<Mithrandir> no, your knee.
<Mithrandir> there, it's at least attached to you even though you don't feel attached to it.
<StevenK> That isn't what you said. :-P
<Mithrandir> no, but I gave an inaccurate description of what I did. :-P
<ajmitch> english, 'tis a wonderful language
* StevenK blows a raspberry at Mithrandir
<Hobbsee> heh
<pitti> Riddell: bug 108969 approved, FYI
<ubotu> Malone bug 108969 in update-manager "update-manager's KDE frontend directs bug reports to ubiquity" [High,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/108969
<mvo> pitti: I would like to upload some more fixes, its all pretty trivial but quite a few unfortunately
<Riddell> was about to ask that
<mvo> pitti: should I file a debdiff for each individually or for all of them?
<pitti> mvo: please subscribe ubuntu-sru to the relevant bugs and add a codebrowse URL, that would be best for me
<pitti> since it's easier to tell the patches apart and verify them
<pitti> mvo: but NB that each -proposed upload resets the time to 7 days again, so maybe the less critical issues should be done after an -updates upload?
<mvo> pitti: how loaded are you currently? the stuff is ready, it "just" needs review
<pitti> mvo: go ahead, I'm in the middle of SRU review anyway ;)
<carlos> lamont: ping
<tepsipakki> has there been talk about if upgrades from dapper are supported not only to the next LTS but the one after it?
<rsk> tepsipakki: nope
<ajmitch> tepsipakki: that could be a long way to support an upgrade
<StevenK> Oh yeah.
<StevenK> Too long, IMHO
<tepsipakki> ajmitch: that's what I thought too
<ajmitch> a lot could change in 4 years :)
<tepsipakki> means that I wasn't on crack a minute ago
<ajmitch> well I don't know about that... :)
<tepsipakki> sent an email to debian-x.. I'm committing the Replaces/Conflicts-stuff from our drivers to git.d.o
<tepsipakki> ajmitch: hah
<tepsipakki> I said that those can be dropped before Lenny is released, since 8.0x is likely the next LTS
<ajmitch> lenny might release before then 
<ajmitch> don't laugh..
* StevenK tries not to.
<tepsipakki> hum, it was scheduled for fall 2008?
<StevenK> I don't like the name Lenny, but there you go.
<ajmitch> tepsipakki: we'll see..
<seb128> ajmitch: it's not likely
<ajmitch> seb128: not very likely at all, no
<mvo> pitti: https://bugs.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/109584
<ubotu> Malone bug 109584 in update-manager "sru request for update-manager " [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
<pitti> mvo: I updated bug 109564 and bug 109290; those are the ones you cared about?
<ubotu> Malone bug 109564 in unattended-upgrades "README missing" [Low,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109564
<ubotu> Malone bug 109290 in update-manager "update-manager core should support proposed updates" [Medium,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109290
<pitti> mvo: ah, looking at that new bug now
<pitti> mvo: I'll review that mega-diff after lunch
<cjwatson> tepsipakki: only to the next LTS; there's discussion of how to achieve even that scheduled for UUDS
<cjwatson> UDS
<mvo> pitti: sure, sorry that its so big :(
<tepsipakki> cjwatson: ok, thanks
<lamont> carlos: ack
<lamont> and about to walk out the door to take kids to school...
<lamont> will be online in about an hour or so
<lifeless> pitti: http://code.google.com/p/google-breakpad/
<pitti> mvo: bug #109584 updated
<ubotu> Malone bug 109584 in update-manager "sru request for update-manager " [Undecided,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109584
<pitti> hi lifeless 
<lifeless> hiya
<pitti> lifeless: right, this came up a while ago; I plan to look at it for https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CrashReporting, it sounds promising
<pitti> lifeless: although ISTR that Mozilla discussed this recently, I thought it was their invention
<lifeless> ah
<lifeless> it looks like its less magic than apport though
<lifeless> not sure its really a win :(
<pitti> lifeless: looks a lot like this 'airbag' project
<pitti> lifeless: I looked at that, and it wasn't really usable for us; I hoped that this breakpad thingy would provide a crash database with a nice web UI
<pitti> hm, but that doesn't seem to be the case from a quick glance
<pitti> lifeless: I still didn't completely give up the hope of using Malone for this; maybe using a separate product, filing the bugs as private by default and remove core dump attachments automatically after retracing; something like that 
<bddebian> Heya
<Riddell> what would a derived distro change to default to nvidia driver instead of nv?
<Amaranth> Riddell: Probably some hackery in the debconf stuff in xorg
<Riddell> I feared as much
<seb128> Amaranth: hi, there is some unconfirmed alacarte bugs, maybe you could have a look on them? ;)
<Amaranth> seb128: Was just heading for bed :)
<Amaranth> Will do it when I wake up
<seb128> thank you
<seb128> 'night!
<carlos> lamont: hi, are you back?
<lamont> carlos: just now
<lamont> carlos: what's up?
<carlos> lamont: I wonder whether you could reactivate translations .tar.gz mirroring on rookery, at least for openoffice.org
<carlos> the ones generated on build time
* lamont looks
<lamont> carlos: looks like  I can, yes.
<lamont> I had thought that was completely obsolete....
<carlos> lamont: that will simplify a lot doko's life
<carlos> lamont: well, Rosetta is not using it at all
<carlos> lamont: but oo.org needs some info that Rosetta is not using at all
<lamont> I see.
<carlos> that require a lot of work to regenerate
<lamont> turning it on for just oo.o is. um, pain.
<lamont> turning it on for everyting will fill up rookery's disks again...
<carlos> so it simplifies a lot oo.org translations updates
<lamont> how about I turn it on, and remove everything over 7 days old each night?
<carlos> lamont: what about removing everything except for last month?
<carlos> lamont: ;-)
<carlos> lamont: ok 7 days would work, if you could leave oo.org ones for a month
<lamont> I'll start with March 15 or so?
<carlos> well, you could start with a fresh tree
<lamont> and is  i386 sufficient, or do i need to fetch more?
<carlos> i386 is enough
<lamont> carlos: lit up and fetching
<carlos> lamont: cool, thank you!
<carlos> doko: ^^^
<siretart> cjwatson: hi. I'm trying to preseed the feisty netboot image, and I wonder if there is a list of preseedable variables. I remember there was an appendix in the debian-installer manual, but I cannot find it for feisty
<mvo> pitti: thanks for your review #109584, I updated the debdiff
<pitti> mvo: and I just updated the bug :)
<mvo> pitti: woah, you are fast
<mvo> pitti: thanks!
<lamont> carlos: I assume you want at least one set of oo.o translations there, yes?
<carlos> lamont: latest one is enough (per distrorelease)
<lamont> yeah. hrm.
<lamont> I can provide doko with that file directly, I believe
<lamont> doko: poke me when you want them, and I'll tell you where to root around from chinstrap to fetch them
<doko> lamont: thanks
<cjwatson> mdke: are you due to update help.ubuntu.com for feisty, or is that somebody else?
<cjwatson> siretart: ^--
<cjwatson> siretart: the installation guide on help.ubuntu.com for edgy should be good enough in most cases; the only particularly relevant change I know of is that you now have to preseed 'd-i partman-auto/method string regular' if you're preseeding partman-auto/disk
<siretart> cjwatson: ok. thanks!
<ion_> keybuk: Btw, is it already safe to upgrade an edgy box with md+lvm to feisty? :-)
<Keybuk> see if it works
<ion_> Perhaps i should replicate the configuration in a virtual machine to test it or something. The box in question shouldnt have any more downtime than absolutely necessary.
<siretart> ion_: the past problems have (almost always) been races. so reproducing it in some virtual environment is not a good test to see if it works
<siretart> ion_: better just try upgrading, and if it fails, restore your backup
<keescook> siretart: rdesktop> sure, no problem; thank you for finding the fix for it!  :)
<pitti> hey keescook 
<keescook> hiya pitti
<elkbuntu> *clears her throat* there's an anxious mob awaiting a certain benevolent dictator in -classroom :)
<pochu> sabdfl: 
<pochu> oups :)
* pochu waits too
<pochu> btw, nice session dholbach :)
<sabdfl> ???
<mc44> sabdfl: open week... :)
<dholbach> pochu: thanks a lot
<pochu> sabdfl: it's your time in #ubuntu-classroom ;)
<pochu> dholbach: /me likes more and more the motu community :)
<dholbach> pochu: that's really great - hope to have you in the team soon
<pochu> I'm in my way... but a lot to learn yet!
<dholbach> pochu: I'm sure you'll do nicely :)
<psusi> imbrandon: ping
<real_ate> hey, i'm doing the rounds at the moment trying to find some help in identifing a hardware bug, anyone here know much about wireless?
<iwj> In Python, how would I parse the output from find -print0 ?
<jcol3> can i just stop the dbus service altogether and my apps still work?
<jcol3> /ncik jcole
<iwj> jcol3: Not IME.
<iwj> But I am no expert.
<^jcole> dbus seems flaky in feisty
<^jcole> on my desktops and my laptop
<^jcole> i see bugs submitted against dbus/gaim/evolution/etc. related to dbus and would like to remove dbus altogether
<shawarma> ^jcole: Some things use dbus to work.
<shawarma> ^jcole: Popular examples include hal.
<shawarma> ^jcole: And hence network-manager.
<^jcole> shawarma: was it this way in edgy?
<shawarma> ^jcole: Yes.
<^jcole> shawarma: something must have changed in dbus between edgy and feisty
<shawarma> ^jcole: of course.
<shawarma> ^jcole: Something changed in almost every package. :-)
<^jcole> shawarma: i get grayed out windows that are not responsive... killing them and restarting them gets really annoying
<^jcole> shawarma: i'm in gaim right now, which will most definitely freeze later on today, and it appears to also use dbus
<shawarma> ^jcole: I haven't seen that before.
<^jcole> shawarma: network-manager also gives me problems, which uses dbus... also evolution, which i think also uses dbus
<^jcole> i'm really not sure what is going on or how to debug a hung application
<^jcole> i've reverted my laptop back to edgy so i can have my stability back
<shawarma> I'm sorry, I've got to run out. Maybe someone else can help. You can perhaps try in #ubuntu-bugs
<shawarma> I'll be back in about half an hour.
<psusi> anyone know what timezone imbrandon lives in?
<psusi> i.e. when I could expect him to be on?
<shawarma> psusi: He's in the US somewhere.
<mvo_> iwj: if you are still interessted in the python find output parsing, let me know
<sladen> psusi: https://launchpad.net/~imbrandon/ | grep Timezone
<Clem92> /exit
<Clem92> /leave
<jcole_eat> Clem92: /quit
<jcole_eat> has mozilla disappeared entirely from the repos?
<jcole_eat> why isn't this in the repos?? http://www.mozilla.org/projects/seamonkey/
<geser> jcole_eat: yes, the old mozilla suite was removed
<jcole_eat> geser: why? and why wasn't it "replaced" with the new suite?
<geser> it was the pre-"seamonkey" version which is abandoned and unmaintained upstream
<geser> and for seamonkey I don't know the reason anymore why it wasn't synced from Debian
<jcole_eat> geser: maybe it has to do with the whole firefox logo copyright drama
* jcole_eat sighs
<jcole_eat> or maybe it's called something else in the repos
<geser> as Ubuntu can use the trademark (see firefox and thunderbird) it's not the reason
* jcole_eat hunts for a changelog of why
<geser> nowbody moved forward to sync it from Debian (and rename it back to seamonkey)
<jcole_eat> it's called iceape
<jcole_eat> in debian
<geser> I know
<geser> perhaps nobody seen a benefit to have it in universe
<jcole_eat> geser: i want the only wysiwyg html editor in debian/ubuntu, *composer*
<jcole_eat> (open office puts a mess of crap in the html)
<jcole_eat> it's probably easiest to pin and add the debian repos
<shawarma> nvu has worked for me before.
<geser> nvu was removed from feisty
<jcole_eat> shawarma: ya, i like nvu, but it is now gone from ubuntu
<shawarma> Ah, right.
<cjwatson> it's gone from feisty, not from Ubuntu; should be possible to continue using the package in edgy
<giskard> nvu is buggy and unmaintained i suggest you to take a look on Kompozer..a "fork" of nvu
<jcole_eat> coolness, got "iceape" composer installed from debian :)
<jcole_eat> ah, good ol' mozilla too :)
<geser> cjwatson: is it possible to remove a released (and broken) package from the archive?
<\sh> geser, why not fixing it?
<geser> \sh: it's for bug #81996
<ubotu> Malone bug 81996 in f-prot-installer "f-prot.com closed the FTP site" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/81996
<geser> it tries to download a file which isn't there anymore. f-prot provides now also a deb for download
<\sh> geser, what about removing the content and creating an "empty" package with a debconf alert message?
<Treenaks> whoo.. dapper installing inside kvm on feisty :)
<geser> that would be only a help for those who have it already installed to let them know how to "update" the package
<\sh> geser, also telling people that this package is obsolete and will disappear in the future (not for current release but for the next)
<Treenaks> \sh: that should be package description, not debconf notice
<shawarma> t 
<shawarma> whoops
<\sh> Treenaks, no...just as a very special reminder...nobody reads apt-cache show ;)
<shawarma> It *could* also be changed to fetch the new .deb and install it.
<geser> I think you can't run dpkg from dpkg
<cjwatson> you cannot
<shawarma> No, I just thought of that too
<cjwatson> geser: not without sounding massive alarm klaxons
<cjwatson> very much prefer not to
<cjwatson> (if it's in a released suite like feisty)
<shawarma> It could fetch it and tell the user to install it like it's done with libdvdcss.
<shawarma> Or is it still done that way?
<shawarma> I forget.
<geser> cjwatson: any preferred idea how to fix it? (if it should be fixed)
<cjwatson> geser: a kludge comes to mind in which the installer package downloads the .deb and extracts files from it as if it were the tarball previously provided
<geser> would such a massive change be suitable for a SRU?
<mjg59> cjwatson: Any idea where keybuk and mdz might be? I was under the impression we had a tech board meeting now...
<cjwatson> mjg59: um, dunno, I can try phoning
<mjg59> cjwatson: I'm not in the UK right now, so if you could that would be great :)
<cjwatson> hmm
<cjwatson> mdz is at dinner with sabdfl and doesn't think he'll make it; no answer from Scott's phone
<mjg59> Ok
<cjwatson> sorry :-/
<bogdanb> Hi! I've just finished the first draft of a proposed spec, please take a look at it and leave a comment on the wiki if you're interested. It's about the automatically and centrally gathering the data that is currently used by the System Monitor's resource usage graphs, the Power Manager, and similar tools. You can find it at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/unified-system-monitoring
<mdke> cjwatson: yes
<mdke> cjwatson: got a bit of work to do on it, should have it ready in about a week I guess. We really need to rethink the way we do online help for the next release cycle
<Solarion> so, when is the alpha of the next release coming out?
<Solarion> if it does xrandr1.2, I'm going to it now.  :)
<mc44> !gutsy
<ubotu> Gutsy Gibbon is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (7.10). See https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2007-April/000276.html and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule Support in #ubuntu+1
<Solarion> mc44: ah, danke
<Solarion> looks like I won't have it in time for my comps presentation.  :(
<psusi> imbrandon: ping
<imbrandon> psusi, give me a few i'm giving a IRC talk then i'll get with yoiu
<imbrandon> you*
<psusi> kk
<ajmitch> psusi: imbrandon is off being famous
<ajmitch> psusi: was this the access to compile machines?
<psusi> lifestyles of the rich and famous
<psusi> ajmitch: yea
<ajmitch> the only other ones setup right now are sparc & ppc
<psusi> ok
<psusi> more likely than not, if I get it compiling on those two, it will also work on ia64
<psusi> frankly, I'm still surprised it doesn't build on ia64 seeing as how it works on amd64
<imbrandon> psusi, what can i do for ya
<psusi> imbrandon: I was told to ping you for access to some build machines of other architectures.... the defrag package only builds on i386 and amd64 since those are the two I have access to and I'm tired of getting email when it fails to build on the others ;)
<imbrandon> psusi, are you a MOTU currently ( or core-dev )
<psusi> no
<psusi> though apparently I'm now on the new dmdraid team on launchpad... heh...
<imbrandon> hrm i have it restricted to only MOTU for security and to keep the accounts down, but I'm sure some motu would be happy to help you with specific bugs on those arches
<psusi> ok... maybe I'll just finally get off my ass and become a motu already...
<imbrandon> :)
<psusi> time to refresh my memory on what I have to do...
#ubuntu-devel 2007-04-25
* tonyyarusso is around if any of the nvu/kompozer question folks still are
<shawarma> sort of
<shawarma> In the sense that I'm sort of here, and I'm sort of one of the question folks. :-)
<tonyyarusso> Short answer - I'll package KompoZer v0.8 once the dev sends me a tarball.  If we get lucky the trademark holder will let it be called Nvu again.
<shawarma> tonyyarusso: Cool!
<tonyyarusso> shawarma: For now there's a version 0.7.7 available as a tarball install from kompozer.net, and I have an i386 .deb only laying around.
<shawarma> tonyyarusso: You can also just package a VCS snapshot.
<tonyyarusso> yeah
<shawarma> tonyyarusso: That way you don't have to wait for them to do a release.
<tonyyarusso> heh, he needs me poking him for the release anyway
<tonyyarusso> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/New may have info
<xtknight> bug 109804
<ubotu> Malone bug 109804 in Ubuntu "Firefox can't save image from interfacelift.com" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109804
<jmg> #107776
<jmg> bug 107776
<ubotu> Malone bug 107776 in samba "during edgy->feisty update installation of samba_3.0.24-2ubuntu1 made the upgrade fail" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/107776
<Hobbsee> jmg: it's a bug.  and?
<jmg> im trying to fix it
<Hobbsee> ah
<Hobbsee> it looks to be a dupe of the other
<jmg> yeah
<jmg> tis a dupe, but no patch
<jdong_> BenC: why does commit http://git.kernel.org/?p=linux/kernel/git/bcollins/ubuntu-feisty.git;a=commit;h=c25cfc3ad3cb8cac3474febfe66cff8ee0bfba18
<jdong_> BenC: why does that commit revert TIFM from 0.8 to 0.7?
<jdong_> I suppose that is an accident?
<psusi> imbrandon: ping
<leleobhz> someone uses cowbuilder here?
<leleobhz> or cowbuilder or pbuilder
<fabbione> morning
<sonictwin> hi
<sonictwin> can anyone lookat this error?
<sonictwin> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/17541/plain/
<sonictwin> my brother restarted the comp while upgrading to feisty
<harrisony> !support
<ubotu> support is The official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
<harrisony> try in there
<sonictwin> k
<Mithrandir> hm, tzdata seems to make debootstrap unhappy
<yondie> hello guys: is it possible to include https proxy inside synaptic ?
<harrisony> yondie: yep under preferences
<yondie> harrisony: dat`s the global setting rite?
<harrisony> yondie: thereare the global gnome/kde settings but i dont know if they go through that
<dholbach> good morning
<Hobbsee> hi dholbach 
<dholbach> heya Hobbsee
* Hobbsee stomps on Mithrandir's toes
<Hobbsee> (in greeting)
<Mithrandir> lovely morning, Sarah. :-P
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: indeed!  without the assignments :P
<Mithrandir> yay. :-)
<ion_> IRC::People.find_by_channel('#ubuntu-devel').each {|p| greet p }
<Hobbsee> as in, it woudl be a lovely morning without the assignments.  unfortunately, they havent magically disappeared :(
<Mithrandir> oh
<dholbach> hi ion_
<ion_> Whats up?
<Mithrandir> yesterday, I participated in some user testing of new electronic tax forms here in .no.  Some of the forms were just magic forms which did themselves with all the right numbers.  Unfortunately, the developers said that was only in the mockup.
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: any good at electronics?  :P
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: haha, nice
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: I have about half a semester of it, but it's been a couple of years since last I really did anything with it.
<Hobbsee> damn
<Mithrandir> but what is it you're looking at?
<Hobbsee> steady state sinosoidal analysis, yada yada yada....
<Hobbsee> NFI - i'm soon reverting to the "if you cant dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit"
<dholbach> Mithrandir: can you tell me where I can find the list of packages that we actively removed from Ubuntu?
<Mithrandir> dholbach: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/removals.txt
<dholbach> thanks a lot
<ajmitch> hi dholbach, Mithrandir 
<dholbach> hey Andrew
<kagou> morning
<dholbach> hey pitti
<ion_> Hi
<pitti> Good morning
<kagou> hey pitti 
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: I'll sort out debootstrap in a bit if you haven't already
<Hobbsee> morning pitti 
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I haven't no.
<cjwatson> what's breaking?
<cjwatson> and could you let debootstrap through unapproved so that it's easier to test? :)
<Mithrandir> this is actually on feisty, with gutsy being a copy of feisty.
<Mithrandir> and yeah, I think I'll let some bits through
<Mithrandir> (waiting for feedback from doko about some java stuff before opening for general development)
<dholbach> pitti: can you give mvo the Bug.add_comment() bits you use in the retrace service? (bug 109213)
<ubotu> Malone bug 109213 in bughelper "recent LP rollout broke Bug.add_comment()" [High,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109213
<pitti> dholbach: too bad, codebrowse seems to be down :/
<pitti> dholbach: I'll give him an URL once he's online
* dholbach hugs pitti
<fabbione> does anybody remember if we use gzip -9 or just gzip when compressing data.tar.gz for a deb package?
<mdke> can someone tell me what is wrong with this command?
<mdke>  	sed -i ../build/ubuntu/$y/C/*.html -e "s#ghelp:office#\.\./\.\./office/C/#g"
<Hobbsee> fabbione: gzip -9 i would have thought.  that's what's in the packaging guide, last i knew
<mdke> I get the error:
<mdke> sed: -e expression #1, char 37: unterminated `s' command
<mdke> sed: -e expression #1, char 98: unknown option to `s'
<Hobbsee> although maybe for a deb it's different
<mdke> argh, I see the problem
<StevenK> mdke: $$y ?
<StevenK> The ^I is making me think it's in make.
<mdke> StevenK: no, it was a different line in the script that wasn't working, not that one. I forgot to escape something...
<mdke> ah, everything working now, phew
<\sh> moins
<saispo> hi
<seb128> lu saispo
<dholbach> hey seb128
<seb128> hey dholbach
<kwah> Hi all
<kwah> tried #ubuntu-installer but it seems that everyone asleep
<kwah> Where can I find an information about what "Install with driver update CD" variant of installation for?
<seb128> kwah: hi
<seb128> kwah: it might be a bit early for uk, you will likely get a reply if you wait
<kwah> ok I'll wait then
<hunger> Yahoo! gutsy is open:-)
<seb128> hunger: what do you mean?
<tepsipakki> doesn't seem very open to me :)
<Treenaks> tepsipakki: mjg59 told me yesterday that airlied applied a patch to xorg-video-ati git that might fix bug 20283
<ubotu> Malone bug 20283 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "[X700]  Really bad sync on HP NW8240" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/20283
<Mithrandir> I accepted a couple of packages, but it's not yet open for general development, no.
<Mithrandir> Soon
<seb128> Mithrandir: what are the packages you accept now?
<Mithrandir> seb128: base-files, debootstrap, devscripts.
<seb128> Mithrandir: could be get gnome-pkg-tools synced? Most new GNOME packages from Debian Build-Depends on a version newer than the feisty one
<seb128> s/be get/we get
<seb128> would be nice to have it available before starting working on updating GNOME
<cjwatson> mdke: BTW you don't need to escape "." in the replacement part of a sed s-expression
<mdke> cjwatson: oh. Thanks
<cjwatson> seb128: gnome-pkg-tools has no compiled code, does it?
<Mithrandir> seb128: doko had an idea for a day of "toolchain-ish" syncs before opening up fully where such packages would be appropriate, yes.
<seb128> cjwatson: no, it's a bunch of cdbs rules and documentation
<cjwatson> seb128: I've just punted it through now then - won't harm anything
<seb128> cjwatson: thank you
<mdz> good morning
<ajmitch> morning mdz 
<tepsipakki> Treenaks: that's cool, waiting for .192 then ;)
<Kim^J> Yo, Who's responsible for the non-working postgrelsql-8.2 package?
<Kmos> Kim^J: in at arch ?
<Kmos> *what
<Kmos> you've reported the bug ?
<cjwatson> debconf (developer): <-- FSET tzdata/Zones/UTC seen true
<cjwatson> debconf (developer): --> 10 tzdata/Zones/UTC doesn't exist
* cjwatson eyeballs the Debian diff uploaded this morning REALLY HARD to see if it'll fix this
<pitti> cjwatson: is that from my tzdata gutsy upload from yesterday?
<cjwatson> pitti: yes
<cjwatson> I'm working on it now
<pitti> cjwatson: I doubt that today's Debian upload fixes it; I took the patch from it
<Kmos> pitti: the sudo message bug ? :-)
<pitti> darn, I thought I tested it enough, it worked for upgrades and fresh installs
<pitti> Kmos: hm?
<pitti> Kim^J: details, please?
<Kmos> ok
<cjwatson> pitti: this is debootstrap
<Kmos> bug 8556
<ubotu> Malone bug 8556 in sudo "sudo password prompt could be clearer" [Wishlist,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/8556
<cjwatson> pitti: problem is that debootstrap links /etc/localtime to /usr/share/zoneinfo/UTC and tzdata doesn't like it being UTC rather than Etc/UTC
<cjwatson> pitti: so while I could change debootstrap, it seems to me that this could well affect upgrades too
<pitti> argh, I see
<cjwatson> there's still a debian/config diff from -3ubuntu2 to -4, so I'm looking at that
<cjwatson> seems like it could also affect other top-level files in /usr/share/zoneinfo/
<cjwatson> pitti: really I'd like to be able to tell whether a zone is defined by Link in the backward file
<cjwatson> and if so, migrate to the current zone name
<cjwatson> pitti: how about I report a Debian bug about this and change debootstrap so that we can move on
<pitti> hm, the backwards file isn't shipped; we could do that of course
<pitti> but OTOH they won't disappear anytime soon
<cjwatson> right, it's not good enough for gutsy final but it's good enough for now
<pitti> agreed
<pitti> Kim^J: I am really interested in fixing postgresql bugs, but I need to know what's wrong first :)
<pitti> Mithrandir: question, is MoM actually running? The website is back, but the HTML files are from March 7
<Kmos> pitti: can you do something on bug 106753 ?
<ubotu> Malone bug 106753 in ddclient "Version 3.7.1 is out, please update!" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106753
<pitti> Kmos: I don't particularly care personally, it's an universe package and we will get new versions from Debian
<Kmos> ok
<pitti> Kmos: if you are interested in the package, feel invited to care for it :)
<pitti> we are always embracing new developers
<Kmos> how to do it ?
<Kmos> Latest release:  3.7.0-3ubuntu1
<Kmos> Uploaded By:  Luke Yelavich
<Kmos> themuso do the latest one
<pitti> Kmos: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment is a good starting point
<Mithrandir> pitti: I wasn't aware it was back.
<Kmos> pitti: thx
<pitti> Mithrandir: oh, then my hug for you yesterday was not justified :-P
* pitti hugs Mithrandir anyway
<Mithrandir> heh
<pochu> Kmos: if you have any question, #ubuntu-motu is your site :)
<Mithrandir> pitti: you should hug the sysadmins for fixing the box. :-P
<pitti> Kmos: i. e. you should get acquainted with the basic procedures and then ask the MOTU community for guidance
* pitti hugs the sysadmins heartily
<Kmos> pitti: ok, thx
* netjoined: irc.freenode.net -> brown.freenode.net
<Fujitsu> Can some archive admin please let k3d into {edgy,feisty}-proposed?
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: mind if I wave through my debootstrap fix?
<mvo> Fujitsu: thanks for working on this!
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: please
<Fujitsu> mvo: No problem. I don't like having upgrades broken.
<Fujitsu> I would have had the fix earlier if it didn't take so damn long to build.
<mvo> :)
* mvo hugs Fujitsu
* Fujitsu hugs mvo.
<Mithrandir> pitti: do you have any ideas about 76177?
<pitti> Mithrandir: ah, there's finally an lshal
<pitti> Mithrandir: the approach would be to fix hal's volume-probe to check if the partition is an evms volume and set volume.fsusage to something different than 'filesystem' ('evms' probably)
<pitti> Mithrandir: the open question from my side is how to detect that; it seems to appear like a standard ext3 partition
<pitti> brb
<Mithrandir> pitti: you can check for the metadata on it; I'm not sure if evms ships such a tool, but it could.
<pitti> Mithrandir: as long as there is an unique magic on it, the volume prober can open the device itself, that wouldn't be a problem
<pitti> Mithrandir: it already does that anyway for figuring out the file system
<pitti> Mithrandir: do you happen to know a spec for this or shall I google a bit?
<Mithrandir> pitti: give me two minutes
<pitti> Mithrandir: ah, there seem to be evms specific ioctls, also for discovery
<Mithrandir> pitti: uh, it's just using devmapper so that'd be strange.  Sure you aren't looking at 2.4 era information?
<pitti> Mithrandir: entirely possible, the presentation I just looked at was from 2003
<mjr> 20
<bhale> ARE WE THERE YET?
* bhale ducks
<ajmitch> hello bhale 
<bhale> hi andrew
* Mithrandir makes simira's dog chase bhale the duck.
<Mithrandir> he loves ducks.
<bhale> :)
<pitti> Mithrandir: I didn't find anything more current, so I guess some RTFS is in order
<pitti> Mithrandir: hal already detects dm-raid volumes, so this configuration is probably more like an lvm with multiple parts
<Mithrandir> pitti: yeah, maybe so.  Anyway, I think we should fix it.
<pitti> I agree
<pitti> Mithrandir: doesn't seem to be fixed in latest hal either, I reported it upstream
<ogra> mvo, ping
<null__> hello
<null__> does network manager automatically update the dns information for a wirless connection? 
<Treenaks> null__: dns information is not 'for a connection', it's global -- /etc/resolv.conf
<Treenaks> null__: and yes, n-m updates that
<null__> Treenaks, it does not update dns info for my connection
<null__> i get only this nameserver 192.168.1.1
<Treenaks> null__: please ask support questions in #ubuntu
<Treenaks> null__: I think your DHCP server is giving out the wrong nameserver
<null__> instead of nameserver isp.nameserfver
<Treenaks> null__: anyway, please ask support questions in #ubuntu
<null__> Treenaks, thanks for the info, ill check my router
<null__> cos i didnt know where the problem orignated from
<ogra> pitti, is that true for our hal as well ? http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/hal/2007-April/008143.html
<ogra> ..."HAL can already manage password-protected USB
<ogra> drives, which require approximately the same handling as remote SSHFS
<ogra> directories."...
<pitti> our hal is not different in that regard
<pitti> except that his reasoning is a bit flawed
<ogra> yay, that will make my life way easier for ltspfs then :)
<ogra> shouldnt be different in its implementation
<pitti> because the cleartext block devices (dm) appear in /sys and thus are detected automatically, whereas fuse devices aren't
<ogra> just that we dont need passwords :)
<ogra> right
<Boni> Hello! Does anyone know how to display a GREP output in one single line?
<ogra> Boni, grep blah *|tr -d "\n"
<ogra> and no, this is not a support channel :)
<Boni> ah damnit okay, I missunderstood the channel name :)
<mvo> ogra: pong
<Boni> Anyway, thank you very much, ogra!
<mdz> mvo: excellent upgrade experience at http://technical-itch.co.uk/2007/04/20/ubuntu-704-upgrade-first-impressions/
<mvo> mdz: cool! that looks pretty good indeed :)
<chaks> hi
<chaks> anybody here can help with ubuntu and hal policies?
<cjwatson> seb128: I'm wondering, would it make sense to start building the gtk directfb frontend?
<seb128> cjwatson: I've planned to sync GTK on Debian when gusty opens
<cjwatson> seb128: we aren't using it, but all the build-deps needed for it are already in main as far as I can see, and it would reduce our gtk+2.0 diff and allow me to sync cdebconf
<seb128> cjwatson: I didn't do previous cycle because directfb was outdated most of the cycle and I was too busy to work on it
<cjwatson> seb128: ok, great
<ScottK> pitti: Yesterday keescook asked me to ping you today about checking to see if the dapper-security and edgy-security fixes for Bug #107628 have built, so ping.
<ubotu> Malone bug 107628 in lighttpd "DoS-vulnerability in lighttpd" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/107628
<pitti> ScottK: unfortunately jackass is still busy, sorry
<ScottK> pitti: Thanks.  I guess ping you again tomorrow?
<pitti> ScottK: please do
<ScottK> OK.  Will do.
<pitti> chaks: any details?
<pitti> oh, he's not here any more
<lifeless> nght all
<pitti> bye lifeless 
<ogra> night lifeless 
<siretart> pitti: in bug #104332, several users report success with my package in feisty-proposed. okay to upload to feisty-updates?
<ubotu> Malone bug 104332 in rdesktop "Segmentation Fault (core dumped)" [High,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104332
<seb128> siretart: no need to upload, they can be moved now
<pitti> siretart: I would prefer mvo's or bdmurray's blessing with verification-done TBH, but you can already upload it of course (I can still defer the accepting)
<pitti> seb128: not any more, this was just a temporary test :(
<seb128> pitti: oh, k
<seb128> pitti: it didn't work correctly?
<pitti> seb128: for this case it did, but cprov mentioned a bug which needed to be fixed first
<mvo> pitti: rdesktop? I tested that it installs, but I do not have a rdesktop setup (maybe bdmurray has one)?
<pitti> sorry, I don't know any details
<seb128> k
<pitti> mvo: that doesn't work with vmware or a laptop?
<siretart> seb128: we can? how?
<pitti> siretart: we will hopefully be able to do this soon; we ran a first test yesterday
<seb128> siretart: no, apparently not
<siretart> pitti: is this the NativeSourceSyncing spec?
<pitti> siretart: yes, so I was told (parts of it at least)
<siretart> cool!
<siretart> will it be available for all developers or for ubuntu-archive only?
* siretart being very excited about this :)
<pitti> siretart: only for the archive team, it's a normal soyuz CLI tool
<mvo> pitti: I know of no free rdesktop server, siretart do you know one? my impression is that you need windows to test it
<cprov> siretart: https://launchpad.canonical.com/Soyuz/NativeSourceSyncing
<pitti> well, maybe it'll be integrated into LP some day, I don't know
<siretart> cprov: that url is restricted, it asks me for username/password :(
<pitti> mvo: ah, that doesn't work with the standard server we ship? too bad
<pitti> mvo: I would be happy with taking the word of three other testers instead of your's; are you?
<siretart> mvo: AFAIK, there is no free rdp server. you need an windows server to test it
<cprov> siretart: dunno, l.c.c wiki used to be public, no ?
<Ng> http://xrdp.sourceforge.net/
<StevenK> mvo: I have access to a few Windows servers that run RDP if you want me to test something.
<mvo> pitti: yes, I have this problem for some other verificiations as well, e.g. multimedia keys or em64t server miscompilation
<siretart> cprov: only the 'help.launchpad.net' wiki. the l.c.c wiki was never public TTBOMK
<mvo> StevenK: if you could just check that rdesktop from feisty-proposed works, that would be appreciated, (bug i#104332)
<cprov> siretart: anyway, I'm expecting to discuss better features for MOTU/SRU in UDS Seville. It should include API for handling universe queue and also copying packages via the LP UI.
<mvo> Ng: thanks, looking
<pitti> siretart: I see one tester of the feisty-proposed package; if you can get me two more, I'll push it out
<siretart> cprov: this sounds very exciting! :)
<siretart> pitti: ok
<mvo> Ng: have you tried out this thing?
<pitti> siretart: can you test it yourself?
<ogra> i have to wait until US esat coast gets up, but i think i can get you some testers
<ogra> *east
<StevenK> mvo: Sure. If I get connected that's enough, or is there something specific I should look for?
<pitti> siretart: if you have the setup to test it, your own testing counts as well, of course :)
<mvo> StevenK: if it connects and works for some minutes, that should be fine
<siretart> pitti: not too conviniently. Need to reinstall that test machien and find some way through the paket filter...
<StevenK> mvo: Noted, give me a few minutes.
<mvo> StevenK: sure, thanks!
<Ng> mvo: not at all recently and I kinda suspect that testing against a "real" RDP server (ie a windows machine) is better anyway
<mvo> Ng: I just compiled it, but I seem to be unable to connect. still, thanks for the hint 
<StevenK> m
<StevenK> mvo: Looks fine.
<mvo> StevenK: thanks, could you please add that as a successful test to bug #104332 ?
<ubotu> Malone bug 104332 in rdesktop "Segmentation Fault (core dumped)" [High,Fix committed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104332
<StevenK> mvo: Certainly. Done.
<mvo> StevenK: thanks!
<StevenK> mvo: Any time.
<pitti> siretart: oh, the same fix was uploaded by Kees to -security, with some test results; so with StevenK's test this is fine for me to upload
<Hobbsee> doko: it's april!  why arent the archives open yet!?!?  :P
<sigix> after upgrading to fiesty from edgy, I log in and the intializing screen (the little applet saying like Nautilus starting.. ) just stays there and metacity won't start... any ideas?
<sigix> I have tried #ubuntu, nobody has a clue... 
<pitti> sigix: check if the loopback interface is up and if your clock is correct
<sigix> pitti: got lo UP and time seems right... I can kick off metacity manually and it won't crash or anything... 
<pitti> sigix: does it happen with a clean user profile as well?
<sigix> hmmm... not sure... be right back as I log out and back in with a new user... 
<tepsipakki> pitti: that happens on my laptop as well..
* pitti blames seb128 
<pitti> tepsipakki: no, now that you mention it it's most certainly an X bug!!
<bddebian> Heya
<tepsipakki> pitti: oh damn..
<pitti> tepsipakki: any idea where it hangs? I already suspected esound
* tepsipakki goes fixin'
* seb128 eyes pitti
<tepsipakki> pitti: I can see many aplay processes
<pitti> tepsipakki: i. e. can you figure out which process stalls it and strace it maybe?
<seb128> sigix: do you have a .gnomerc?
<pitti> aplay!
<tepsipakki> hmm.. now that we are here maybe it's time to track this down
<sigix> pitti: it does not happen with another user profile
<pitti> tepsipakki: can you purge esound and check if that cures it?
<pitti> tepsipakki: that symptom rings a bell
<tepsipakki> sure, a sec
<sigix> seb128: would that be in .gnome?
<pitti> not that esound would call aplay, of course
<seb128> sigix: what .gnome?
<pitti> seb128: oh, wait, gdm uses aplay, right?
<rpereira> Did someone had problems with Feisty Fawn and serial mouse?
<sigix> seb128: I found it, there is a file in my home .gnomerc
<pochu> sigix: in ~/
<seb128> sigix: what does it contain?
<sigix> export WINDOW_MANAGER=~/.gnome-compiz-manager/openbox
<seb128> that's it
<sigix> delete it?
<seb128> you used a non official gnome-compiz-manager?
<seb128> yes
* pitti bows to seb128
<seb128> move it away
<sigix> beryl before upgrading
<seb128> k, that's it then
<sigix> thanks guys
<crimsun> as long as it's not an alsa-related issue.   /me ducks
<seb128> using non official software bit you 
<pitti> tepsipakki: that might explain your hang as well? I bet you used something like that for testing
<sigix> ***ouch*** 
<sigix> well glad fiesty supports the eye candy now
<tepsipakki> pitti: no, this is a pretty stock edgy dist-upgraded to feisty in January I think
<tepsipakki> no .gnomerc here
<crimsun> tepsipakki: don't happen to be using snd-via82xx on that machine, do you?
<tepsipakki> crimsun: no, i810
<pitti> seb128: however, kicking esound in the but hard enough to fly out of main is still one of my pet griefs
<crimsun> tepsipakki: meaning snd-intel8x0?
<doko> Hobbsee: they are open, just frozen due to low temperatures, remember it's April ;-)
<tepsipakki> crimsun: ah, yes
<crimsun> tepsipakki: ok, different issue then.
<seb128> pitti: that would have been a nice SoC
<pitti> doko: 22 degrees here, come on :)
<seb128> would be nice for a bounty
<seb128> pitti: lucky you, 28C here
<StevenK> 16 degrees here
<StevenK> seb128: Swap you. :-)
<Hobbsee> doko: you wrote in your mail that it would be open for general upload on 26 march...
<tepsipakki> ok, gdm loads as normally it would, but gdmplay/aplay is stuck and no sound is heard
<Hobbsee> doko: wasnt that i was whining about the "freeze for mass sync" part at all :P
<Fujitsu> Hobbsee: That's 11 months away, i suppose. I guess the toolchain is taking a while to come together :P
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: haha
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: is the 26th of march next year a thursday?
<Fujitsu> Hobbsee: No :(
<doko> argh, ... yeah, should be April ...
<Hobbsee> the year after?  that's a *long* time for that toolchain...
<Hobbsee> doko: *grin*
<tepsipakki> pitti: killing esd makes the login to continue
<StevenK> Hobbsee: We want to be *really* sure.
<Hobbsee> StevenK: heh
<tepsipakki> duh, didn't think of that
<seb128> pitti: about your question, gdm uses /usr/lib/gdmplay which calls aplay indeed
<crimsun> tepsipakki: right, that's an old bug IIRC
<pitti> bah, I thought that would have been fixed for ages
<StevenK> "In a shocking new move, Ubuntu has released Gutsy Gibbon, which looks just like Feisty Fawn."
<tepsipakki> crimsun: is it a known issue that nforce2 audio is known to be noisy? (ie. doing stuff on the desktop makes different kind of noice etc)
<StevenK> Then again, leaving the archive frozen the entire release ought to slow us down a tad.
<seb128> pitti: we got quite some comment on the old bug during the feisty cycle about logins hanging due to esd
<seb128> pitti: you don't read your bug mails? ;)
<StevenK> tepsipakki: That might not be the driver.
<crimsun> tepsipakki: affects many integrated audio chipsets.
<Fujitsu> StevenK: At least we can't introduce any more bugs.
<tepsipakki> crimsun: bugger
<StevenK> Fujitsu: Wanna bet? :-P
<pitti> seb128: the way I manage to crawl through my bug mail I largely ignore closed bugs
<tepsipakki> crimsun: it's been there for a long time, so guess there's nothing to do then. Fortunately that's not an issue for me
<seb128> pitti: k
<doko> Mithrandir: please accept gcc-defaults_1.51ubuntu3
<l3on_> hiya :)
<pitti> Riddell: what would be the KDE equivalent of gnome-volume-manager, i. e. the daemon that watches out for hal device added/removed events and mount them/invoke photo application/invoke music player etc.?
<seb128> pitti: reassigning bugs to KDE? ;)
<Riddell> pitti: kded mediahandler (from kdebase)
<Riddell> mediamanager rather
<pitti> seb128: no, UDS planning; porting the 'unsafe device removal' thing to KDE
<pitti> Riddell: thanks
<seb128> pitti: oh, you work on kubuntu now, I see ;)
<iwj> unsafe device removal> One of these days I'll congeal my proposed fix.
<iwj> But it probably involves a new dm-* mode.
<willverine> hi guys, is anyone here familiar with with the debconf python bindings?
<pitti> seb128: PHEAR :)
<seb128> pitti: I've registred https://blueprints.beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-volumes-representation about drivers, volumes, etc handling if you want to subscribe
<pitti> seb128: no, don't worry, just planning for common solutions
<Hobbsee> seb128: pitti's moving to the dark side...
<pitti> seb128: definitively
<seb128> s/drivers/drives
<pitti> willverine: very basically
<pitti> seb128: done
<willverine> pitti: do you know if its possible to register a template programatically via the python api?
<seb128> pitti: cool
<pitti> willverine: no, I don't know, but I don't think that this is the way to go; it's not a language binding issue at least
<willverine> pitti: nope, ill have to make a meta package then :/
<willverine> pitti: i could be evil and just update the file directly, any idea if that would break anything?
<willverine> <eg>
<pitti> you mean updating /var/cache/debconf/templates.dat? that would be really evil
<pitti> willverine: why not just ship the template in the package, as usual?
<cjwatson> willverine: you can use the REGISTER command in the usual way (although that's to register new questions associated with a given template, not to register new templates - but that might have been what you meant)
<cjwatson> absolutely do not munge templates.dat while debconf is running - changes probably won't be preserved
<cjwatson> willverine: if you want more detail about this, I'm on the phone right now and likely will be for an hour or so more, but I'll be happy to help you in depth after that
<willverine> cjwatson: could we maybe continue tomorrow?
<cjwatson> sure
<willverine> cjwatson: tx :) i have studies to get to.. tomorrow then..
<Mithrandir> doko: accepted
<robertj> can someone take a look at https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/simplesamba and give it a priority?
<robertj> should I set status to review if I'm looking for someone to review it?
<jdong_> seb128: I am going to reject bug 36321, it is a common user error in misconfiguring Xgl and not a bug in any system
<ubotu> Malone bug 36321 in xserver-xgl "Incomplete logout options with XGL" [Low,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/36321
<Adri2000> Keybuk, Mithrandir: any idea about when MoM will be updated?
<Hobbsee> Adri2000: after the main lot of autosyncs have been done
<Hobbsee> presumably
<cjwatson> pitti: Aurelien fixed my tzdata bug, apparently - might want to look at a merge
<cjwatson>    * Convert old or single-level timezones into two-level timezones (closes: bug#420895).
<Keybuk> Adri2000: when it's not broken
<Adri2000> it's still broken? :s the debian mirror?
<Keybuk> the machine MoM runs off is having issues
<Keybuk> which is strange, since it's a completely different machine now, yet the issues remain :)
<Adri2000> ok :p
<vciaglia> re
* bddebian ph34rs MoM
<Kim^J> pitti: Yo, here?
<Kim^J> The problem with postgresql-8.2 is that it doesn't start. I'm using Kubuntu Feisty Fawn i386. It doesn't give me any messages, not a single one. It doesn't print anything inside /var/log/postgresql/
<Kim^J> The installation went fine I hope.
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, splendid; I'll look into that when gutsy opens
<pitti> Kim^J: yep
<pitti> Kim^J: how did you install this? was this an upgrade from a previous release? can you give me the output of pg_lsclusters?
<Kim^J> pitti: Nope, New install. I'm really new to Postgre. I use MySQL alot, but a project I'm in requires that I use Postgre.
<Kim^J> I can check that pg_lsclusters
<Kim^J> Give the usual Perl error about LANGUAGE and LC_ALL not being set. And then nothing more. A row that says Version Cluster   Port Status Owner   Data Directory         Log FIle
<Kim^J> And nothing more.
<Kim^J> Argh... Netsplit.
<pitti> Kim^J: still on your side :)
<Kim^J> pitti: Did you got my last one?
<pitti> Kim^J: ah, that explains it
<pitti> Kim^J: it failed to create the default cluster because your locale is invalid
<Kim^J> Oh...
<pitti> Kim^J: please fix your locales, and then either purge and reinstall postgresql-8.2
<Kim^J> Damn,.
<Kim^J> Mkay
<pitti> Kim^J: or do 'sudo pg_createcluster 8.2 main --start'
<pitti> Kim^J: package installation prints out an error, but you probably didn't notice in a mass-install
<Kim^J> Where do I set these locales? I'm not that new to Linux, just lazy. :) Worked fine on Slack. :)
<pitti> Kim^J: sudo locale-gen <yourlocale>
<pitti> Kim^J: any idea why they are broken in the first place?
<ion_> Better install language-pack-XX. It should generate the appropriate locales IIRC.
<Kim^J> Nope. They have always been broken on Ubuntu if you choose english and swedish timezone.
<Kim^J> english lang and swedish timezone*
<Kim^J> Or something like that... I use English as OS-lang and live in sweden. So Swedish time.
<geser> cjwatson: are you still interested on the merge for devscripts 2.10.3ubuntu1? the archive has only 2.10.2ubuntu1
<geser> should I update the debdiff and include your changelog entry for 2.10.2ubuntu1?
<pitti> Kim^J: oh, that justifies a bug report
<Riddell> pitti: able to review bug 91948 for SRU?
<ubotu> Malone bug 91948 in hwdb-client "[apport]  hwdb-kde crashed with UnicodeEncodeError in assemble()" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/91948
<pitti> Riddell: doinf
<pitti> s/f/g/
<iwj> Gah, I updated my Xen testbed and now it doesn't work any more.
<cjwatson> geser: go ahead and update it based on 2.10.2ubuntu1; merging in 2.10.x was the bulk of the diff so I imagine it should be a lot simpler
<cjwatson> (for the record, reviewing a merge is approximately as much work as just doing it ...)
<cjwatson> (for me, anyway)
<pitti> Riddell: oh, .. + you' is magic enough to encode the left argument to UTF8 as well?
<cjwatson> geser: but certainly no harm in updating it
<cjwatson> Kim^J: using what version of the installer?
<Riddell> pitti: I don't understand
<cjwatson> Kim^J: modern installer versions should still select a usable locale
<pitti> Riddell: I had expected some .encode('utf8') patch
<Riddell> pitti: "self.comments[i] " is already unicode, so there was problems when casting it to str()
<pitti> Riddell: ah, I see; the patch looks reasonable, if you tested it with some unicode characters I'm fine with it
<Riddell> pitti: but sendpipe.write() needs a str() so I use qstring to encode it back later
<iwj> Aha!  It has some stupid file in /var/lib which if it gets corrupted is broken.
<iwj> But which apparently isn't actually needed for anything.
<Kim^J> cjwatson: Kubuntu 7.04 Feisty Fawn installer.
<cjwatson> Kim^J: I'd have thought you'd get en_US.UTF-8 in that case; but see also bug 57411
<ubotu> Malone bug 57411 in ubiquity "Installer should be more clever with non-existant locations" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/57411
<cjwatson> (short description is not quite accurate, never mind)
<Kim^J> Hmm... I think it's like this: I choose english as my language on the OS, but I choose Swedish as my keyboard layout. And that's probably what's fucking it up.
<cjwatson> keyboard layout is not relevant
<cjwatson> timezone would be relevant
<cjwatson> but even so, it nowadays has an explicit check whether the locale it's trying to select based on language+timezone is in /usr/share/i18n/SUPPORTED
<cjwatson> http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubiquity/trunk/annotate/2030?file_id=tzsetup-20060405004630-49a8f1219956eb58
<cjwatson> Kim^J: so it definitely shouldn't leave you with a broken locale either way, and I'd like a bug report against ubiquity with details; please attach /var/log/installer/syslog and tell me the locale it left you with
<Kim^J> Mkay...
<ogra> pitti, another SRU in bug 109989
<ubotu> Malone bug 109989 in ltsp "SRU for ltsp" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109989
<seb128> jdong_: ok, cool, any bug closing is welcome ;)
<jdong_> haha :)
<jdong_> seb128: hopefully we won't need Xgl in the near future :D
<seb128> yeah
<seb128> xorg and compiz
<seb128> no xgl, no beryl
<seb128> easier for everybody ;)
<ogra> jdong_, well if you are ati user and eager to test desktop effects ...
<seb128> ogra: I'm an ati user and compiz works correctly with xorg aiglx
<ogra> only 1/3 of the card works with the free driver
<ogra> the other two require fglrx with xgl :/
<jdong_> seb128: radeon X1x00 series card here...
<jdong_> actually not even VESA works on it in Feisty
<jdong_> *cough* *cough*
<jdong_> :)
<Treenaks> jdong_: that's _bad_ :)
<jdong_> don't worry, I still love you guys anyway :)
<jdong_> Treenaks: Radeon X1x00 users boot to a VT on Feisty live
<jdong_> it is _bad_ :)
<ogra> seb128, i'm an ati user as well :) but no way for me with an ATI Radeon XPRESS 200M
<jdong_> I would like to propose it as reason to respin the install CD's....
<jdong_> but I don't think it would happen
<cjwatson> jdong_: is a fix even available yet? last I looked it was unclear
<jdong_> cjwatson: I'm not sure either, but suppose we do find a fix, is it likely for updated discs to be released?
<cjwatson> point releases are possible
<jdong_> I think the entire spectrum of X1x00 cards is a very significant impact
<mc44> perhaps with fixed ata prblems too? :)
<jdong_> and it would be worth the effort to do a point release :)
<cjwatson> mc44: what ata problems are outstanding?
<cjwatson> jdong_: worth the effort> bear in mind that last time it came to about a man-month or two of effort (yes, I know, mythical, etc.)
<cjwatson> and that was just in the employed core team
<jdong_> cjwatson: yeah, I acknolwedge it is a lot of work and don't want to be the one whining and begging
<cjwatson> so I don't want to do them too frequently
<cjwatson> that is not to say it's impossible, but I would prefer to do them for more than one issue
<TomaszD> can we expect a 6.06.2 point release?
<TomaszD> there's already about 250mb worth of updates for 6.06.1
<TomaszD> no fun.
<jdong_> anyone know the bugno for the X1x00 thing?
<jdong_> also... is it legal to have fglrx turn on by default on a LiveCD? A temporary workaround could just be an unofficial installCD that enables FGLRX directly
<jdong_> (*shudder* sounds ugly though)
<cjwatson> TomaszD: same comments apply
<cjwatson> possible, but I'd prefer to have concrete serious issues rather than just too-many-updates
<TomaszD> were there any concrete serious issues for 6.06.1?
<jdong_> installer, IIRC
<jdong_> cjwatson: on an unrelated issue, could backports be processed this week? pretty please :)
<jdong_> most importantly, cjwatson, can you sponsor bug 95002 into edgy-backports?
<ubotu> Malone bug 95002 in edgy-backports "Can't upgrade nexuiz from edgy-backports" [Medium,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/95002
<cjwatson> err, I don't do a lot of archive work at the moment
<jdong_> unmetdeps against edgy-backports, I've attached a debdiff that fixes it at the end
<TomaszD> anyhow, I'd love to see livecd with fglrx enabled. I could never get the livecd going, because the open ati driver does not work with my radeon 9600xt card (dual link dvi)
<cjwatson> TomaszD: what jdong said; I was getting swamped by installer bugs and on balance it probably saved me time overall to go through the pain of doing a point release
<TomaszD> cjwatson, fair enough.
<cjwatson> in fact that was exactly why I pushed for it
<cjwatson> jdong_: any reason that can't go into gutsy and be backported normally?
<jdong_> cjwatson: hmm, that could be an option too I guess... have gutsy do the depends: ${Source-Version} and backport that to Edgy
<cjwatson> right, aside from gutsy not being entirely open yet, but that'll be fixed tomorrow - it could be uploaded right now
<cjwatson> how about I sponsor that fix into gutsy instead
<jdong_> that works too :)
<pitti> ogra: oh, why did you open a separate bug for this? that's confusing
<geser> cjwatson: updated debdiff for devscripts is in bug #108232
<ubotu> Malone bug 108232 in devscripts "[Merge]  devscripts 2.10.4ubuntu1" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/108232
<cjwatson> perhaps somebody else could deal with that
<cjwatson> I was really just sorting out the initial gutsy bootstrap
<geser> ubuntu-main-sponsors is already subscribed to it
<tsmithe>  #ubuntustudio
<cjwatson> jdong_: uploaded
<jdong_> cjwatson: thank you!
<mc44> cjwatson: i.e. this one https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.20/+bug/106864
<ubotu> Malone bug 106864 in linux-source-2.6.20 "Feisty boot fail "can't access tty" IDE SATA problem" [High,Confirmed]  
<cjwatson> mc44: ok, well there's nothing to be done about it from the point-release point of view until something is in feisty-updates
<pochu> 20:59 < Moniker42> the name is based on ian, and the deb is based on...... umm... his girlfriend debby or something? i forget ;)
<pochu> 20:59 < Moniker42> the name is based on ian, and the deb is based on...... umm... his girlfriend debby or something? i forget ;)
<Mithrandir> Deborah, iirc.  His wife
<ion_> ex- IIRC.
<ion_> Unless ive been misinformed. :-)
<pochu> 20:59 < Moniker42> the name is based on ian, and the deb is based on...... umm... his girlfriend debby or something? i forget ;)
<pochu> 20:59 < Moniker42> the name is based on ian, and the deb is based on...... umm... his girlfriend debby or something? i forget ;)
<Mithrandir> pochu: we heard you the first time.
<Treenaks> pochu: please stop pasting
<pochu> LoL
* pochu is new with irssi :(
<bhale> dpm
<bhale> don't middle click
<bddebian> Whoa, bhale!
* bhale waves.
<bddebian> bhale: Where the hell ya been man? :)
<bhale> bddebian: i am in and out (more out than in)
<bhale> busy working
<bhale> I still troll Mithrandir some times
<bddebian> heh
<ion_> Is to bhale something between to inhale and to exhale, or do you have to extrapolate to some direction?
<Mithrandir> hiya tseng
<Treenaks> ion_: 'Oh bhale' (</austin powers>)
<bhale> Treenaks: good one!
<ion_> :-)
<pygi> siretart, yay :)
<blackskad> hi all
<blackskad> is the update-manager translated to any language other than english?
<mdke> blackskad: yes, all of Ubuntu is translated into lots of languages
<blackskad> is it normal that I can't view that translations in launchpad?
<pochu> blackskad: no, it's not
<pochu> blackskad: which language?
<blackskad> bug #110020 is about a german translation
<ubotu> Malone bug 110020 in update-manager "Missing localization in update manager (german)" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110020
<pochu> blackskad: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+source/update-manager/+pots/update-manager/de/+translate
<bhale> hey thom 
<pochu> blackskad: do you have the packages language-pack-de and language-pack-base-de installed?
<blackskad> ok, sorry, I was looking at the overall page at ubuntu>update-manager instead of ubuntu>7.04>update-manager
<blackskad> if they are in the default installation, then I have them
<Nafallo> is it hard to get an appartment in ldn?
#ubuntu-devel 2007-04-26
<mdke> Nafallo: no, but it's expensive
<Nafallo> yea. I guess a move from Sweden would be quite expensive to start with :-P.
<Nafallo> anyway. will translate my CV :-)
<mdke> Nafallo: it's ok if you are being paid well, or sharing accomodation
<Nafallo> ah. nice. that would probably be quite fun :-)
<ajmitch> morning
<Nafallo> morning ajmitch :-)
<mc44> Nafallo: also, our alcohol is cheaper than in Sweden :)
<Nafallo> mc44: hehe. I don't care much about alcohol though :-)
<Nafallo> rather spend my money on computerparts ;-)
<siti> Can a developer look at this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gksu/+bug/66518  I have some bug fixes for gksu.  It fixes most startup notification problems and would be nice to be merged.
<ubotu> Malone bug 66518 in gksu "[Edgy + Feisty]  Startup Notification broken" [Medium,Confirmed]  
<pygi> siti, I can look, I'm not a dev tho
<pygi> I can review the patch ^_^
<pygi> siti, simple patch ^_^
<siti> yeah it's very simple but fixes the most annoying bugs I have with ubuntu 
* pygi could perhaps roll new package today or day after
<pygi> if you want me to ofcourse ^_^
<siti> roll a new package?
<pygi> well, apply patches to existing one, and upload it to archives =)
<siti> yeah that would be cool, how does it get merged from there, sorry I am quite new ...
<pygi> well, if it gets into archives, then you can get it :P
<pygi> you could call that merged-in :)
<siti> ok
<pygi> ok, assigned to me
<pygi> will take care of it in near future I hope =)
<siti> thanks
<pygi> yw, thank you
<siti> I'll nag you if you don't ;)
<pygi> siti, sure, you're most welcome to :)
<Nafallo> pygi: kewl. didn't know you where a core-dev :-)
<pygi> Nafallo, I'm not :P
<pygi> Nafallo, I'm not even a MOTU =)
<Nafallo> pygi: ah. sponsoring...
<jdong> how does distro registering work on LP? who is allowed to start a distro, what services do you get, etc?
<pygi> jdong, I guess #launchpad may be better answer to that?
<pygi> Nafallo, nod ^_^
<pygi> Nafallo, nobody would grant core dev access to a person like me :P
<siti> hehe
<Nafallo> :-P
* pygi however hopes to get a few packages up to main in this cycle^_^
<Nafallo> why am I NOT in bed?
<pygi> because it's only 1:50?
<Nafallo> which is in the middle of the night... I should sleep :-)
<pygi> hm, sleep is overrated :P
<Nafallo> depends...
<pygi> on the position of the moon?
<pygi> siti, hopefully that can go in edgy-updates, and feisty-updates
<pygi> I'd say the later one is more probably :)
<siti> yeah that would be nice
* pygi needs to build fresh chroots on server
<siti> have you noticed how screwed up the startup notification is when using gksu too?
<pygi> ^_^
<pygi> whatever you need, just feel free to poke :)
<siti> ok
<siti> thanks
<pygi> If you need help in writing patches, just say ^_^
* pygi also need those, especially bringing evil GB up-to-shape finally :P
<siti> I am fine with patches, it's more learning how ubuntu/debian works and how to make packages
<pygi> oki, #ubuntu-motu is always there to help, and ofcourse you're always welcome to mail  me if you need something ^_^
<pygi> it's not hard as it seems, trust me =)
<siti> :)
<superm1> hey guys some time ago I poked around in here to try to setup a mailing list and got two answers: email to rt@a.c.c and mailman@l.u.c.  I've sent email to both this last month, but haven't heard back from either.  What is the correct way to setup a mailing list?
<lifeless> superm1: did you get a confirmation from rt ?
<superm1> I got a # back from them, but it was automated
<superm1> no people have responded
<superm1> it just said to include it in the subject of all future communications
<superm1> lifeless, it has been almost a month (march 30th) since i sent.  Is there somewhere else i should poke?
<lifeless> superm1: you can ask about progress in #canonical-sysadmin, or follow up to the mail.
<superm1> lifeless, already followed up to the mail (twice now) with no response.  i'll poke in that channel.  thanks 
<Hobbsee> morning all
<fabbione> morning guys
<Hobbsee> hey fabbione!
<fabbione> hey hey
<Hobbsee> :)
<desrt> sup d00ds?
<fabbione> desrt: i will tell you once i am alive
<desrt> you are not yet born?
* Hobbsee applies the cattle prod.
<desrt> hey.  back off.  i like this guy.
<Hobbsee> only gently!
* desrt is tired tonight
* Hobbsee could use the cattle prod to wake you up too?
<desrt> please no.
<Hobbsee> heh
* desrt is more or less ready to go to bed but is waiting for someone to come online first
<n3t0> how i can set packages priority on ubuntu apt-get?
<desrt> n3t0; you have come to the wrong place, i'm afraid
<n3t0> ups. its devel
<n3t0> sorry
<desrt> it's cool
<desrt> have a nice night
<fabbione> desrt: i have been reborn many times.. today i just need to poweron the brain
<n3t0> thanls
<n3t0> thanks
<desrt> ah
<desrt> coffee works better for that than cattle prods.
<desrt> Hobbsee ought to have known better
<Hobbsee> desrt: but far less fun...
<Hobbsee> desrt: i keep saying that i want a lassoo and a cattle prod at work, but they keep saying no...
<desrt> Hobbsee; some things are best done on personal time
<Hobbsee> desrt: heh.  just to use on pesky customers, nothing else...
<desrt> if you have access to their home address information then you could easily turn it into a personal-time hobby
<Hobbsee> hrm, i'll be right
<Hobbsee> besides - once i leave work, it's notmy problem anymore
<Hobbsee> so if foolish customers leave all their shopping behind, i dont care.  go talk to the people on the desk :P
<desrt> true... but you have to take out your agression somewhere
<Hobbsee> heh
* desrt always hated being the sorry sap
* Hobbsee looks around placcidly
<Hobbsee> me?  agressive?
<Hobbsee> heh
<Hobbsee> "the amount of shopping you leave behind is directly proportional to your amount of embarrassment, when you come back, asking us for it"
<desrt> it's odd that you have "shopping" as a noun to refer to the items
<Hobbsee> desrt: i take my agression from that out, on the relatively few people, who do that, and come and say "WHAT DO YOU MEAN MY MILK/MEAT/OTHER COLD STUFF ISNT IN HERE?!?!?!?!"
<jdong> I wish I had that's what she said in here....
<Hobbsee> haha
<jdong> Hobbsee: but lol I've forgotten stuff once or twice too
<Hobbsee> desrt: i believe it's a noun?
<Hobbsee> jdong: yeah, but there's no reason to be an absolute fool, or bitchy about it :P
<jdong> Hobbsee: in my experience the staffers were generally very lenient about it
* Hobbsee has some of the greatest phone conversatoins with people who've forgotten stuff
<jdong> and it was an overwhelmingly positive experience
<Hobbsee> jdong: same here.  on the other end.  however, there are a small group of people who just blow your mind
<desrt> we always kept a book
<jdong> mostly because, contrary to what everyone here believes, I don't bitch out or act aggressive when I'm seeking help :)
<Hobbsee> desrt: so do we.  it's the only way to do it
<jdong> oh, those people will always exist
<jdong> just a second ago there was one in #ubuntuforums....
<desrt> erm
<jdong> OUTRAGED that he can't use "all 64 bits" of his processor
<desrt> is there an "ubuntu irc" forum?
<jdong> and have win32codecs at the same time
<desrt> jdong; dude.  that was me.
<jdong> desrt: don't even get me started on the name of that channel
<desrt> jdong; ease up.
* Hobbsee likes the people who come in and say "hi, my mother left a couple of bags here this morning.  do you have them?"  "quite possibly, what's in them?"  "oh, i'm not sure....cant you check?"....
<jdong> desrt: lol
<jdong> I really wanted to shove my double long pointer up his circular buffer.
* desrt is somewhat annoyed at the 32/64 issue
<jdong> ha! I'm using my CS lingo!
<desrt> dude...
<Hobbsee> </ work rant>
<jdong> Hobbsee: I guess you have answered first hand a question I've pondered several years
<Hobbsee> jdong: oh?
<jdong> Hobbsee: "I wonder what this guy is like in person...."
<Hobbsee> jdong: oh?  how so?
<jdong> Hobbsee: you actually get to meet your interesting-folk in person
<Hobbsee> jdong: true
<desrt> ...internet grocers...
<Hobbsee> heh
<desrt> /join #food
<desrt> <n00b> d00ds.. i forg0t muh shoppin'
<desrt> <n00b> it was... in a bag!
<desrt> ** Hobbsee sets mode [+b n00b!*@*] 
<desrt> ** Hobbsee kicks n00b
<Hobbsee> haha
<ajmitch> I'm sure Hobbsee would never do that, and that she'll be all shy & quiet at UDS ;)
<Hobbsee> quite sure.  just like elky
<jdong> whee! I'm "ms daisy" now
* jdong also searches up 'petarded'
<desrt> are you being driven?
<jdong> that's what.... must resist...
* desrt is being confused and disoriented by jdong
<desrt> Hobbsee, ajmitch; pls help.
<jdong> !twss-#ubuntuforums
<ubotu> That's what she said!
<Hobbsee> desrt: not sure i can...
<ajmitch> desrt: only sedatives can help him now
<jdong> I'm convinced that if one thinks pervertedly enough, that response works for any statement.
<jdong> ajmitch: those didn't work either :)
<desrt> /join #ubuntu-sober
<leninz> can someone help me install wxJavaScript on ubuntu 6.06?
<leninz> please
<ion_> :h
<ion_> Whoops.
<dholbach> good morning
<ion_> Hi dholbach
<dholbach> hey ion_
<fabbione> Mithrandir: are the gates to gutsy open in full?
* fabbione can't see in LP if it's still frozen or not
<Mithrandir> fabbione: no, still closed.
<Mithrandir> it's nowhere near noon yet
<fabbione> ok
<fabbione> noon?
<fabbione> i must have missed an email or two
<Mithrandir> u-d-a?
<fabbione> hmmm gcj is borked...
<fabbione> oh very last line
<fabbione> i did stop half way being all about gcj :P
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: catch up!  it's 4pm!  :P
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: does that mean I can go home for today?
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: you mean you get to stop work at all?
<Hobbsee> if you like :P
<pitti> Good morning
<Hobbsee> heya pitti!
* Hobbsee hugs pitti 
<Mithrandir> hiya Martin
* pitti waves to Australia and Norway
<ajmitch> pitti: what about NZ? :)
* pitti hugs ajmitch, too :)
<Mithrandir> ajmitch: hard to see you over the edge of the sea.
<Hobbsee> ajmitch: isnt that part of australia anyway?
<ajmitch> Hobbsee: we had more sense than that
<Hobbsee> oh wait, that's where we send our criminals.  deportation mark 2
* bimberi deports Hobbsee for that remark
<bimberi> :)
* Hobbsee beats bimberi with a big stick
<mdke> deport her to England
<bimberi> ah, the famous...
<mdke> Nafallo: are you involved with ubuntu sweden? If not, can you tell me who is?
* mdke can't find a launchpad group
<bimberi> mdke: England!  Gosh it wasn't that bad :P
* mdke grabs Hobbsee's stick
<Hobbsee> mdke: you cant. that's mine
* Hobbsee spears mdke with the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  and roasts him over the fire.
<Mithrandir> poor mdke 
* mdke hugs Mithrandir 
* bimberi grins again at the > I can't see how it's at fault. Your most likely issue is a sad
<bimberi> > battery, followed by an issue on the laptop's motherboard.
<bimberi> argn, that failed miserably
* bimberi grins again at the 
* Fujitsu pleads for somebody almighty to let two instances of k3d into {feisty,edgy}-proposed.
<Hobbsee> haha
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: looking at it
<Fujitsu> Thanks Mithrandir.
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: I see it's not on MOTU/SRU yet, but we now have the ability to copy binaries between pockets, so if you could reupload with the version number you want in -updates, that'd be good.
<Fujitsu> Mithrandir: I saw somebody say yesterday that it wasn't actually able to be used in the moment.
<Fujitsu> But I'll adjust and reupload.
<Mithrandir> hm, I'll see if I find that discussion
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: I can't see anything in the discussion about it not working yet.
<Fujitsu> I remember something over the past couple of days, but I can't see it either.
<Mithrandir> hm, sorry, I missed Martin's "this was just a temporary test"
<Fujitsu> That's the one.
<Mithrandir> mea culpa; I'll go poke it through then
<Fujitsu> OK, so we can't actually do it yet?
<Mithrandir> I'm not sure, and it's no harm doing it the old way.
<Fujitsu> Good, I don't really want to manually minimise debdiffs again tonight.
<Fujitsu> I love build systems that generate huge diffs due to autoconf changes :)
<Mithrandir> both accepted now
<Fujitsu> Thanks.
<pitti> Mithrandir: cprov removed the tool again, mentioning some bug that needed to be fixed before; its description was totally uncomprehensible to me, though (speaking in terms of internal LP concepts and classes)
<saispo> hi
<Mithrandir> pitti: oh, the one about it copying random hppa binaries about?
<pitti> Mithrandir: no, that wasn't an issue
<Mithrandir> ok
<popey> morning all. I have a question about a package that isn't in the repo, but I (and the author) would like it to be. Problem is that the package in question (xvidcap) is currently compiled statically against fmpeg-svn8195 rather than the version in the repo..
<popey> ..the author cites "extra testing" "more thorough testing required" and "extra external dependancy " as reasons for statically linking, but I am not convinced these are show-stoppers
<Mithrandir> popey: you can cite "more pain for security updates" as a reason not to statically link
<popey> I would like to help him where I can to get it into the universe repo, but if we are going to be successfull does it make sense for me to push for not static linking?
<popey> true
<popey> I suspect that as a by-product of having it in the repo it will get quite a bit more testing, as it is I think people dont use xvidcap for screencasting (but use something like istanbul) simply because it's got a barrier to use - it's not in the repo
<Hobbsee> sabdfl: about your answer on the commercial repos yesterday - my question was more "how often does canonical plan to update these repositories, and for how many releases will they do it?  ie, just LTS ones?"
<popey> should I grab a mentor from the MOTU wiki pages and get some guidance directly?
<florian> Hello!
<Hobbsee> popey: or ask in #ubuntu-motu with anything you need help with
<Hobbsee> hi florian 
<popey> ah, of course, thanks Hobbsee 
<florian> Is there a development kernel 2.6.21 for ubuntu?
<florian> I tried to build one myselve, but it seems there are a lot of patches for the ubuntu kernel.
<Hobbsee> florian: not yet
<florian> The 2.6.20 doesn't work with my acpi
<Hobbsee> presumably we'll move straight to .22? or .23?
<fabbione> florian: it's on kernel.org... there is a development tree but it's not for general use
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: AIUI, the plan is .22
<fabbione> florian: it's lacking all the ubuntu stuff.. basically it's .21 vanilla in .deb package
<florian> fabbione: also a ubuntu version? I couldn't get it to work on feisty ...
<fabbione> florian: well then you will have to wait...
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: great, okay
<fabbione> florian: it's brand new merge
<florian> fabbione: OK, I was looking for a ubuntu package ...
<Hobbsee> florian: and it'll go on gutsy, nto feisty
<fabbione> florian: no, there is no such thing yet
<florian> Where ist the right place to get a development kernel for ubuntu?
<Hobbsee> florian: in the gutsy repos.
<Hobbsee> when it exists
<florian> Hobbsee: OK, thanks ...
<hunger> Hobbsee: gutsy repos exist.
<Hobbsee> hunger: yes, but the new kernel doesnt
<Hobbsee> which was what i was referring to :P
<hunger> Hobbsee: They seem to contain (parts of) the toolchain only so far though.
<Hobbsee> i know
<hunger> Hobbsee: Sorry to bother you then!
<Hobbsee> hunger: no problem :)
<florian> Yes that is allright. I just wanted to know where if available I could look for devolopment stuff.
<florian> So I will watch the gusy development ...
<saispo> where NetworkManager configuration file is stored ?
<Fujitsu> saispo: It doesn't have a config file, AFAIK. All configuration is stored per-user in gconf.
<doko> cjwatson: could you merge debhelper before the archive generally opens?
<saispo> Fujitsu: ok, the speed rate for wireless config is in gconf too ?
<Mithrandir> saispo: NM doesn't force the speed rate, iirc.
<Fujitsu> I doubt NetworkManager does that sort of stuff.
<saispo> :/
<saispo> i have a 54mbits card and my french isp have a 54mbits router
<saispo> but ubuntu speed is 11 mbits :/
<saispo> and i read in /etc/network/if* a variable with the speed rate
<tarzeau> i'm looking for the di i386 etch 2.6 netinstaller kernel config file...
<Fujitsu> tarzeau: You're not going to find much/anything about Etch in here...
<saispo> Fujitsu: i search where this variable $IF_WIRELESS_RATE is set
<tarzeau> Fujitsu: sorry wrong chan
<doko> pitti: please promote axis, wsdl4j, libcommons-discovery-java to main (already approved during the feisty cycle, now needed by java-gcj-compat)
<doko> Mithrandir: please accept python2.5
<Mithrandir> doko: accepted.
<dholbach> cjwatson: do you if libatk1.0-udeb is used somewhere? (debian dropped it and I'm not sure if I can merge it like that)
<dholbach> cjwatson: forget what I just said, they just create it differently
<siretart> Mithrandir: why is bug #106352 not applicable for gutsy?
<ubotu> Malone bug 106352 in lcd4linux "please sync lcd4linux_0.10.1~rc1-1 from debian/unstable" [Undecided,Rejected]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/106352
<Mithrandir> siretart: because it'll be done by the "auto"-sync.
<thom> bhale: dude!
<willverine> cjwatson: hi :)
<pitti> doko: at it
<pygi> siretart, around?
<siretart> pygi: .
<pitti> doko: erledigt
<pygi> siretart, I've talked build system to produce .4 libs ^_^
<pygi> which would mean .... guess what :)
<siretart> pygi: you finally release the next version?
<pygi> siretart, sure, very soon :)
<cjwatson> doko: yeah, ok
<pygi> siretart, with ABI not broken even
<cjwatson> pitti: actually, what happened was that a newer rollout supported copy-package, but that rollout also broke the publisher so cprov flipped the /srv/launchpad.net/codelines/current symlink back
<pygi> biggest thing to note in new version will be - we stopped using /dev/sg, on advisal of kernel people
<cjwatson> pitti: however, that shouldn't stop you being able to run copy-package.py from the newer codeline even though it's not .../current
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, so that was unrelated actually, I wasn't 100% sure about it
<cjwatson> certainly people doing -proposed uploads now should use the version number they want in -updates
<cjwatson> willverine: hi
<pitti> right, I already had editmoin open when cprov called me back :)
<willverine> cjwatson: here is where i am at the moment, i can do it from the terminal (ie load the template i want) and i can do it from perl
<cjwatson> willverine: so what's the perl incantation you're using?
<willverine> cjwatson: cause the perl bindings exist, but i have no idea whether python bindings exist or where i could find them
<cjwatson> 'import debconf'
<willverine> cjwatson: yup, but how do you load a template?
<cjwatson> willverine: that question doesn't really make sense to me; could you back up a bit and explain what you're trying to do?
<willverine> cjwatson: the only command that looks right is register
<willverine> cjwatson: from the command line ill type in debconf-loadtemplate [PACKAGENAME]  [TEMPLATEFILE] 
<cjwatson> no, what are you trying to achieve?
<willverine> cjwatson: debconf-loadtemplate is a perl script
<willverine> cjwatson: im trying to load a template
<cjwatson> I'm familiar with debconf
<cjwatson> willverine: that's a means to an end. What's the end?
<cjwatson> it should be pretty rare to need to use debconf-loadtemplate manually
<willverine> cjwatson: to be able to have debconf 'variables' available to set before the appropriate packages are installed
<cjwatson> willverine: is this some kind of installation preseeding thing?
<willverine> cjwatson: yes
<cjwatson> willverine: why not use debconf-set-selections?
* willverine looks
<cjwatson> you *can* use the register command to do this (and debconf-set-selections does something a bit like that internally; the cdebconf implementation of debconf-set-selections actually does do exactly that) but I'd recommend using debconf-set-selections rather than doing it by steam
<willverine> cjwatson: yes thats exactly what i want to do (the template route is a roundabout way to accomplish the same)
<willverine> cjwatson: do you know what the python for debconf would look like to accomplish the same (ie which command to use)
<cjwatson> something like:
<cjwatson> db = debconf.Debconf()
<cjwatson> try:
<cjwatson>     db.set(template, value)
<cjwatson> except debconf.DebconfError:
<cjwatson>     db.register(template, template)
<cjwatson>     db.set(template, value)
<cjwatson> db.fset(template, 'seen', 'true')
<cjwatson> can't remember if the 'REGISTER template template' trick works in debconf - I think it does
<cjwatson> better to have a real dummy template to register it against of course
<cjwatson> then it would be db.register('name/of/dummy/template', new_question_name)
<willverine> cjwatson: tx! :) will give it a try
<cjwatson> the perl implementation of debconf-set-selections does it differently because it's using debconf internals to get the job done
<cjwatson> the same functions aren't accessible to python bindings - they're client-only
<cjwatson> hence my strong recommendation to use the external program
<cjwatson> +  * dh_installudev: Install udev rules directly into /etc/udev/rules.d/, not
<cjwatson> +    using the symlinks. MD has agreed that this is more appropriate for most
<cjwatson> +    packages.
<cjwatson> wow, is the universe ending?
<StevenK> Dear God, Macro d'Itri is changing his opinion?!
<StevenK> Er, Marco
<StevenK> cjwatson: Say it ain't so!
<fabbione> StevenK: MD is not totally unreasonable..
<StevenK> fabbione: To be completly honest, I've found him unreasonable enough to avoid using anything he maintains.
<fabbione> StevenK: i guess it's a matter of personal experience..
<StevenK> I guess so.
<cjwatson> FWIW I'm not making a comment on him personally, rather that I thought this was a particular issue he felt very strongly about (and I happened to disagree)
<Mithrandir> it'll also help reduce the delta we have to Debian, which is good.
<cjwatson> yeah, most of the dh_installudev diff (though not all - different default priority and separator character) goes away
<Mithrandir> we have a fair number of packages which moves the file, too.
<jono> does feisty use compiz or beryl?
<StevenK> The former.
<Mithrandir> compiz is in main, beryl in universe
<jono> thanks
<Nafallo> mdke: pong. I am :-).
<cjwatson> Mithrandir,doko: just testing debhelper now - will upload it when I'm satisfied
<doko> cjwatson: thanks
<doko> Mithrandir: once pitti's package promotions are in the archive, we could open gutsy from my point of view; pitti is preparing texlive to be synced/merged, and I'm not aware of any other major breakage
<pitti> right, but texlive-bin will keep my busy for a while still; the poppler patch needs some updating
<pitti> working on it ATM
<pitti> doko: well, I can also temporarily drop it completely, thus building against xpdf, and fix it up afterwards
<doko> pitti: sounds like an option
<pitti> but I would really like to have this in the archive before we open the floodgates, since it affects build-deps of many packages
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: who's in charge of semi-auto sync-source runs this cycle? you?
<doko> Mithrandir: ^^^
* pitti currently builds a version with an updated patch, let's see how that goes
<dholbach> doko: you introduced python-orca-brlapi - do you know how I can import it and try if it works?
<doko> dholbach: just splitted out to a new binary package
<doko> import orca.brl
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I'll be happy to do them.
<Mithrandir> pitti: any idea about an ETA for it?
<pitti> Mithrandir: oh, I think I did it; it's at the debhelper stage
<pitti> yay, it built
<dholbach> doko: thanks a lot - works nicely (i tried orca.brlapi and orca.brlmodule which didn't work)
<pitti> Mithrandir: so, let me give this at least a short local test before I sync and upload everything
<pitti> Mithrandir: max one hour, I'd say until I have everything tested, uploaded and synced
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: debhelper uploaded, will be in unapproved in a coupule of minutes
<Mithrandir> pitti: sure, take your time.
<doko> Mithrandir: please accept python-profiler, python-stdlib-extensions, python-defaults
<Mithrandir> doko: accepted.
<doko> pitti: hrm, forgot about to ask for the promotion of libmx4j-java
<pitti> doko: done
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: debhelper in unapproved, please accept
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: accepted.
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I'm happy with people accepting their own toolchain-y packages until we just open fully.
<pitti> Mithrandir: alright, basic test works well
<Mithrandir> pitti: feel free to upload, then.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: nod
<pitti> Mithrandir: right, I'll do the uploads and syncs now and will care for the binary NEW stuff
<Mithrandir> pitti: just remember that syncs don't go to unapproved, so don't sync anything which needs the new bits.
<pitti> Mithrandir: I need to sync tex-common and texlive-{base,doc,extra,lang}, and upload texlive-bin
<pitti> Mithrandir: and promote all those to main
<Mithrandir> pitti: sure.
<pitti> I'll remove tetex later
<seb128> carlos: around?
<pitti> they do have some mutual build deps, but they should resolve themselves, I think
<carlos> seb128: yes
<seb128> carlos: https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+source/epiphany-extensions/+pots/epiphany-extensions-2.17 has an incorrect translations domain, do you know why?
<seb128> carlos: the package template is correctly named -2.18
<Mithrandir> hm, beta should really redirect people who don't have beta membership to the regular one.
<seb128> carlos: https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/+sources/epiphany-extensions/+translate rather
<seb128> Mithrandir: yes, there is a bug open about that
<carlos> seb128: I guess I forget to fix that once the translation domain changed
<carlos> I will fix it now
<pitti> elmo: tetex-bin is in main but its source (texlive-base) is not.
<pitti> erk
<pitti> Mithrandir: ^ maybe I need a publisher run before the syncs to have my change-override things become active
<seb128> carlos: thank you
<carlos> seb128: done
<Mithrandir> pitti: you do.
<seb128> carlos: https://bugs.beta.launchpad.net/rosetta/+bug/110030
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 110030 in rosetta "epiphany extensions textdomain is wrong" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  
<seb128> carlos: you can close it ;)
* pitti hits it over the head with -f -F
<pitti> Mithrandir: ^ that did the trick
<Mithrandir> oh, that too
<carlos> seb128: it will require a language pack update to get it deployed
<seb128> carlos: right
<pitti> Mithrandir: texlive-bin should be in unapproved; it needs the new tex-common as a build-dep, so it will just go into dep-wait; the other packages that I sync have harmless build-deps (just debhelper and quilt)
<Mithrandir> pitti: feel free to accept them, then.
<pitti> will do
* pitti wants sync-source go faster
<pitti> accepted
<pitti> Mithrandir, doko: texlive-bin uploaded, the other texlive stuff synced, all in accepted now; after the next publisher run in 45 minutes the buildds can have fun
<Mithrandir> coolie.
<Mithrandir> pitti: once it's built, you're happy with opening for general development?
<pitti> Mithrandir: I am, yay :)
<Mithrandir> coolie
<pitti> Mithrandir, doko: do we need to urgently care for gcc-4.2 in NEW?
<doko> pitti: hmm, isn't that already in the archive?
<pitti> doko: source apparently is, but there is lots of binary NEW
<doko> pitti: well, get it in now, doesn't hurt
<Mithrandir> pitti: well, since you're volunteering.. :-)
<pitti> alrighty
<pitti> gcc-4.2 accepted
<ogra> is there a way to make debootstrap run localized ? 
<ogra> somehow i always get non german output with it ... 
<ogra> or does it do that only in debian-installer mode ? 
<cjwatson> ogra: the localisation's handled by base-installer
<fabbione> Keybuk: ping?
<cjwatson> ogra: debootstrap has no other i18n itself
<ogra> cjwatson, ah, what i suspected ...
<Keybuk> fabbione: was in a conf call, what's up?
<fabbione> Keybuk: i mailed distro-team.. nothing urgent.. there is a clash in the meeting schedule
<fabbione> Keybuk: since you usually arrange that, i thought you might want to know :)
<fabbione> Keybuk: fridge calendar has not been updated with our new meeting time and MOTU booked #u-meeting at the same time as us
<Keybuk> yeah, we can either claim eminent domain and kick them out to another channel
<Keybuk> or move it to another channel ourselves
<Keybuk> that's no problem
<ajmitch> what time is distro team meeting? 2000 UTC?
<fabbione> Keybuk: yeah i suggest the latter and get the fridge fixed
<Keybuk> our meeting times have been a standard schedule, it's the fridge fault for not having them
<Mithrandir> the fridge has been broken like that since DST hit, though.
<Keybuk> ajmitch: alternates between 1500UTC and 2000UTC during "northern" summer, 1600UTC and 2100UTC winter
<Keybuk> yes, and people have been asked to tell them repeatedly
* fabbione takes off for the afternoon.
<fabbione> cya later for the meeting
<ion_> An Ubuntu pun at ELER.
<cjwatson> Keybuk: in fact I'm sure we told one of the fridge editors directly at one point and he said he would fix it
<cjwatson> since DST hit
<Keybuk> I've told them myself, I think henrik has too
<pygi> siretart, released, will package everything in the coming days
<siretart> pygi: the packaging is already done, AFAIK. it just needs updating to your latest release, and uploading to gutsy. I'll handle that
<pygi> siretart, ah, ok, if you say so
* pygi thinks siretart is taking his SoC tasks :P
<siretart> pygi: no. just normal ubuntu maintainer's tasks.
<siretart> pygi: but say, do you intend to stay with soname 3 or 4?
<pygi> siretart, 4
<siretart> k
<pygi> 0.3.4 was soname 2, 0.3.0 soname 3, and 0.3.4 was 4
<pygi> 0.3.6 now is also 4
<pygi> siretart, did we also put that cdrskin when installed, is used instead of cdrecord/wodim?
<pygi> (when the packages were done)
<pygi> or shall I do it? (I don't mind, it's my task anyway :P)
<seb128> pygi: hi
<pygi> hi seb128 :) How is it going?
<seb128> good, thank you
<pygi> glad to hear :)
<seb128> do you know what unit storage.cdrom.write_speeds uses?
<pygi> where did you found that?
<seb128> hal
<pygi> well, it should use the first found AFAIK
<seb128> nautilus-cd-burner uses that list / 150 to list writing speeds
<pygi> plus hal is currently broken in the respect of detecting possible write_speeds
<seb128> which gives weird speeds
<pygi> there's a patch at bugzilla that was worked on by brasero team
<seb128> pygi: do you have a bug number?
<pygi> we introduced small scsi library in brasero to get-around hal and n-c-b (which will probably get dropped at due time)
<pygi> seb128, not really, but lemme see if Luis is here
<seb128> why don't you want to use it?
<seb128> or you speak about the lib?
<pygi> what's the point of using n-c-b? All it was used so far were some tiny things which we can drop
<pygi> plus it's all hacky :-/
<seb128> bug #67034
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 67034 in hal "available speeds are wrong" [Low,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/67034
<seb128> that's the bug, looks like hal has weird values
<seb128>   storage.cdrom.write_speeds = {'8467', '7056', '5645', '4234', '2822', '2117'} (string list)
<pygi> I'm going to package brasero n the coming days, so you'll see how it works
<pygi> yea, I know
<seb128> it that an hal bug? or due to linux? or correct values?
<pygi> seb128, hal bug
<pygi> it can be fixed
<seb128> cool
<pygi> seb128, see this for example: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/brasero/+bug/80460
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 80460 in brasero "Brasero speed burning doesn't work" [Undecided,Needs info]  
<pygi> also cause by hal
<seb128> I reassigned to nautilus-cd-burner to hal, was not sure if that was the right component though
<pygi> it is
<seb128> cool, thank you
<pygi> as I said, there's a patch, I hope they'll apply it soon
<pygi> now, why won't we use n-c-b in there ... 
<pygi> since brasero supports both cdrecord and libburn, and n-c-b is only cdrecord (+ is hacky + has a lot of problems) the new little scsi lib to handle the speed detection and some other things was introduced
<pygi> when packaging however, I'll need to pull additional patch from svn for that lib since the released was a bit unstable :-/
<siretart> pygi: sorry, I was out of my room. I didn't get your  last question regarding cdrskin
<pygi> siretart, well, have we already done the trick in the package which makes cdrecord and wodim just symlinks to cdrskin?
<siretart> pygi: I'd rather not touch the cdrecord yet at this point
<pygi> siretart, oh?
<siretart> pygi: is there an urgent need to do so?
<siretart> I'd rather fix applications to use 'cdrskin' instead of 'cdrecord'
<pygi> siretart, no urgent need. So you'd patch all applications?
<pygi> if so, then sure, no problem
<pygi> I can do so without any problem
<siretart> pygi: I don't want to rush decisions
<pygi> siretart, ah, ok, so we'll need to talk more about that
<ion_> How about /etc/alternatives?
<pygi> I think we discussed that once, and dismissed it 
<pygi> (me doesn't remember why tho)
<pygi> seb128, question. How often do you communicate with n-c-b upstream?
<seb128> I send a distro bug on bugzilla every now and then and that's about it
<_blondy_> the best Spanish vidente visits his blog are very interesting rituals of love and many things but visitalo http://eltarotdesalem.blogspot.com/
<siretart> debian alternatives sounds like a good options, I'd like to hear opinions from that from the debian cdrkit maintainers
<pygi> seb128, ah, ok. They do not respond to my bug report, neither I got a response through mail on the questions sent :-/
<pygi> siretart, ah, ok. If you ever come to conclusion, please do inform me as I have to do something :)
<siretart> sure
<pygi> like updating packagin, testing, calling for testing, patching stuff, and things like that :)
<pygi> seb128, are you willing to do a little test with n-c-b for me?
<seb128> pygi: which one?
<pygi> seb128, to try to install newest libburn/cdrskin, and make wodim/cdrecord (whatever you use) link to it
<pygi> then n-c-b should use cdrskin, and if things are good, it should probably show correct speeds
<seb128> where is the new cdrskin?
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o cjwatson]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+b *!user@85.155.45.22]  by cjwatson
<pygi> seb128, sec
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o cjwatson]  by cjwatson
<pygi> seb128, http://libburnia-download.pykix.org/releases/libburn-0.3.6.tar.gz
<seb128> pygi: k, I'll give it a try later
<pygi> seb128, sure, thank you
<doko> pitti: texlive-base needs tex-common (>= 1.7)
<Mithrandir> tex-common |        1.7 |         gutsy | source, all
<Mithrandir> yes?
<pitti> doko: ah, it just built
<doko> Mithrandir: MANUALDEPWAIT needs a retry, correct?
<doko> texlive-base
<Mithrandir> texlive-base is BUILDING
<pitti> most of the stuff shuold build really quickly, just -bin needs some 15 minutes or so
<doko> hmm, wasn't two minutes ago
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee!
<pygi> hi Hobbsee :)
<pitti> doko: let's crank together to make it faster :)
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir!
<Hobbsee> heya pygi 
* Hobbsee steps on Mithrandir's feet in greeting, in an attempt to warm up
<doko> Mithrandir: please accept python2.5, fixing the b-d on sparc and powerpc
<Hobbsee> oh no, not more of that ubuntu metadistribution crack
<pitti> great, -extra, -doc, -base, and -lang have built
<thom> Hobbsee: what, it's only 30C now?
<Hobbsee> thom: here?  no.
<Hobbsee> it was about 20C here today
<Hobbsee> is colder now, iirc
<StevenK> It's 15C now
<Hobbsee> ah, there you go
<Nafallo> 25.6C
<StevenK> And I'm cold too, for the record.
<Nafallo> 26.1C inside
<StevenK> Nafallo: Swap you, please? :-)
<Nafallo> StevenK: baah. come visit me instead. I have a comfortable couch :-)
<StevenK> Seems a little short notice. :-)
<Nafallo> ;-)
<Nafallo> well. I don't think the weather will be bad in the coming week or so ;-)
<Nafallo> should be enough time ;-)
<StevenK> .au -> .se is quite far, too
<Nafallo> yea. like 24h flight or something :-P
<Nafallo> might be more.
<ion_> C (coulomb) = A s, btw. ;-)
<StevenK> It was 25h or so when I went to .fi
<Nafallo> I wonder what route they would take... probably via Heathrow :-)
<StevenK> .fi I went Singapore, Bangkok, and then Helsinki
<Nafallo> they peer with Arlanda. and then ~1h train from Arlanda.
<Mithrandir> or just sydney, malaysia, amsterdam, stockholm
<Nafallo> that almost sounds like my IPv6 routes to .id ;-)
<StevenK> This is all academic anyway. I'm not flying to .se, even due to Nafallo's offer. :-)
<ion_> nafallo: ~1h train? Quite a bit of latency. :-)
<Hobbsee> StevenK: fly to seville instead.
<Nafallo> StevenK: :-)
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: put him in your luggage
<StevenK> If I could afford it, I would.
<Nafallo> ion_: yea. but I have no place for a DC10 on my roof ;-)
<StevenK> Mithrandir: A little cramped...
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: if he'd fit...
<StevenK> Besides, you only get 20kg allowance, and I'm a little more than that.
<Mithrandir> Hobbsee: he's tall, but not that heavy.
<Hobbsee> hrm...
<Nafallo> oh. my routing to .id was a bit different btw :-)
<Mithrandir> StevenK: she'll just cut off unimportant bits.
<StevenK> Mithrandir: OUCH!
* Hobbsee ponders which bits are marked as unimportant...
<StevenK> Hobbsee: Think very carefully. :-P
<Hobbsee> hrm...
<Nafallo> http://home.nafallo.info/tracepath/2007-04-26.txt
<Nafallo> :-)
<StevenK> Mithrandir: I'm sure Canonical could organise a crate for me to fly in at least. :-P
* Hobbsee ponders upgrading to gutsy...
<StevenK> Hobbsee: Give it a change to actually have some changes besides the toolchain? :-)
<pitti> Mithrandir: hmm, texlive-bin FTBFSed on ia64 (only) with cannot find the library `/usr/lib/libcairo.la'
<pitti> Mithrandir: how much do we care about ia64 being in sync at that time?
<infinity> Are we on an eliminate .la files warpath?
<infinity> If so, it's really hard to go back and fix one arch if the chain gets too deep.
<pitti> I'm not sure, it built fine on the other arches
<ogra> wow, where does that xorgconf.py in restricted-manager come from ? thats cool
<infinity> (The official answer, though, is "we don't care about ia64 unless the fix is obvious and doesn't eat too much of your time")
<pitti> ogra: from kdeguidance
<ogra> ah
<pitti> ogra: I should have mentioned it in copyright
<ogra> i wonder if i could speed up ltsp with it ... 
<pitti> ogra: slightly adapted to match our Xorg.conf spacing style
<ogra> instead of presseding half the word just modifying the default generated file ...
<pitti> ogra: perhaps; I gave up on relying on xserver-xorg debconf, it broke too much stuff
<ogra> *world
<Riddell> pitti: interesting, didn't know that.  presumably separate from mvo, and glatzor's use of it?
<seb128> infinity: GNOME packages are in good way to kick them
<ogra> generating xorg.conf is one of the biggest slowdown factors i have aside from udev/kernel module loading in ltsp
<pitti> Riddell: oh, I might have mixed that up with displayconfig-gtk, which in turn stole it from kdeguidance
<ogra> heh
<ogra> yay opensource
* pitti wants python-xorg-config :)
<seb128> infinity: they use /usr/share/gnome-pkg-tools/1/rules/clean-la.mk which empty the dependency_libs, next round is to stop distributing them ;)
<jsgotangco> hey rodarvus
<rodarvus> hey jsgotangco :)
<Hobbsee> hi rodarvus 
<Hobbsee> hi spam
<pitti> rodarvus! long time no see
<rodarvus> hi Hobbsee, pitti!
<rodarvus> pitti, indeed :)
<jsgotangco> Hobbsee: nospam!
<rodarvus> been a while since I've been able to join #ubuntu-devel
<Hobbsee> jsgotangco: no spam?  but spam is fun!
<mvo_> ogra, pitti: please do not copy it (again), for gusty we get a package something from kdeguidance (at least that is planed)
<mvo_> hey rodarvus!
<rodarvus> (and somehow contribute something to ubuntu)
<rodarvus> mvo_!
<pitti> mvo_: that would be cool; I'll move my spacing fixes there
<ogra> mvo_, i just discovered it, i'm not sure yet it helps me in ltsp ... since dpkg-reconfigure has to run in any case ...
<ogra> i'd just get rid of one debconf-communicate call ... 
<mvo_> Riddell: we use the code from kdeguidance in displayconfig-gtk, but we talked with upstream aobut it and there is  a plan to unify it all again and move back into a common binary-package
<Riddell> mvo_: yes, saw the e-mails
<Mithrandir> infinity: we hate .la files, yes.
<Mithrandir> pitti: does texlive-bin generate any libraries?
<pitti> Mithrandir: no, it doesn't
<Mithrandir> then we don't care.
<pitti> hm, I wonder why it doesn't build libkpathsea
<pitti> Mithrandir: I made a note about this; eventually libkpathsea should be built from texlive-bin, so that we can remove tetex-bin, but right now it doesn't
<Mithrandir> ok
<pitti> Mithrandir: hm, it might mean that a lot of packages will FTBFS on ia64 due to missing tex build deps
<pitti> I'll look into that right after finishing this php USN stuff
<xxxxx1> hi all.
<xxxxx1> someone here have hardware with tpm support?
<Seveas> yeah
<Mithrandir> pitti: cheers.
<Seveas> it's switched off though :)
<xxxxx1> i'm working on tpm packages for gutsy
<Mithrandir> seb128: why does libcairo include .la files?
<xxxxx1> if someone have suggestions i'll appreciate
<xxxxx1> for now i'm working on opencryptoki to enable tpm support on firefox
<seb128> Mithrandir: because of libtool ship them if you don't tell it to not?
<seb128> Mithrandir: I can make libcairo use clean-la.mk if you want ;)
<Mithrandir> seb128: we'd want to clean them out in the right order, but yes, I think we'd want that.
<seb128> Mithrandir: clean-la.mk empty the dependency_libs so when other packages are rebuild they drop the depends on it and later we can stop shipping it
<pitti> oh, since when the scroll wheel works in terminal apps, such as vim?
<seb128> so there is no "right order"
<Mithrandir> seb128: go for it, then.
<seb128> pitti: I think that's a vte change done just before feisty
<pitti> cool
<pitti> meh, I removed the cairo .la file locally, and texlive-bin builds fine
<seb128> pitti: grep libcairo.la /usr/lib/*.la on the box getting the bug
<pitti> seb128: the box -> buildd
<Mithrandir> seb128: iz ia64 box.  Somehow I doubt pitti has it at home.
<seb128> pitti: ssh to an ia64 chroot then if there is one
<seb128> that's likely not specific to the buildd but to the arch
<Mithrandir> or just download the .deb from the archive and extract it. :-P
<seb128> what deb?
<seb128> every depends shipping a .la? ;)
<Mithrandir> the libcairoN_ia64.deb ?
<pitti> it must be an rdepends of libcairo, not libcairo itself, right?
<seb128> ah, right
<Mithrandir> ah, point.
<Mithrandir> so a rdepends of libcairo-dev shipping .la files.
<Mithrandir> can't be that many
<Mithrandir> could be indirect though
<seb128> no
<seb128> a Build-Depends of texlive-bin
<seb128> or anything installed while building it
<seb128> that's not only the libcairo-dev rdepends
<Mithrandir> point.
<infinity> Not really much of a point.
<seb128> that's likely something with a .la mentionning libcairo.la and no Depends on libcairo-dev
<infinity> Anything that isn't a libcairo rdep but mentione cairo's .la is VERY broken.
<seb128> the easier is really to grep libcairo.la /usr/lib/*.la
<seb128> infinity: well, we are trying to figure what is broken
<infinity> (But yes, grepping the chroot is the winner here.. Too bad all the ia64 boxes I have access to just fell off the planet)
<pitti> seb128: no DC ATM, so no porter's box :/
<seb128> pitti: that doesn't make the job easy :/
* pitti looks towards London and sings Pink Floyd's "Is anybody out there?"
<Treenaks> pitti: Didn't anyone tell you?
<pitti> Treenaks: Klingons? Vogons? a bypass?
<Treenaks> pitti: The Russians?
<Keybuk> err, where did the DC go?
<pitti> someone stepped on the wire? the charlaidy pulling out the server chord while vacuuming?
<jsgotangco> ah well
<Mithrandir> 15:42 < Ng> there is a general issue at the moment with the data centre. sysadmin strike ninjas are en route
* jsgotangco sits in a corner
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: ^^
<Keybuk> "general issue"? :)
* Keybuk looks it up in his sysadmin excuses book
<Keybuk> ah yes
<Keybuk> "oops"
<jsgotangco> lol
<thom> "someone broke the fibre"
<infinity> Backhoe incident?
<infinity> Nuclear strike?  Does anyone in London feel warm?  Have you lost any hair in the last 20 minutes?
<thom> infinity: if someone managed to backhoe L3 they're using a large nuclear weapon
<thom> huh, jinx :-)
* Keybuk looks for mushroom clouds in the south
<ogra> heh
<Keybuk> I remember that "routeing failure" translated to "Engineer rebooted the wrong router"
<bddebian> Heya
<jussi01> Hello!!
<Keybuk> hello
<bddebian> Heya jussi01, Keybuk
<jussi01> the Motu's directed me this way, so Ill pop up my question and hope someone answers. So, I have a program Im packaging, and it has 2 parts. 1. the front end, gui part, and 2. the binary backend (1 file) can I include this binary file in the source code for multiverse? 
<Keybuk> jussi01: unable to provide an answer.  What is the licence for that binary part, and what is the licence for the source code?
<jussi01> the licence for the source part is the gpl, binary is freeware
<infinity> Does the GPL source bit include an exception for linking against the nonfree bit?
<infinity> (Or do they not link?)
<Keybuk> "freeware" ?
<jussi01> Hmmm, Im not exactly sure
<jono> Keybuk: has London gone down do you know?
<infinity> jono: ninjas en route.
<cjwatson> jono: yes, Cambridge is now the capital of England
<Robot101> bwahahaha
<Nafallo> lol
<jono> hehe
<jsgotangco> haha
<mc44> quick, lets build a tube system in Cambridge :)
<Keybuk> jono: yes, see BBC News; terrorist attack
<Keybuk> (note: joke)
<jussi01> http://lianwei3.googlepages.com/home2 is the program
* Robot101 has been arguing with Nokia to not schedule a week long code-camp directly overlapping the Camridge real ale festival
<jono> Keybuk: haha, rough
<Robot101> s/mr/mbr/
<jono> jees, everything seems to be gone
<jsgotangco> yes
<jono> looks like Ng tripped over a cable and pulled a plug out
<Keybuk> "when in doubt, blame Ng"
<cjwatson> snares# ifdown eth0 # oh bugger
<Nafallo> I think they just wanted to know the reaction :-)
<Keybuk> cjwatson: at least Ng is in London when he does that
<Keybuk> "...Mark, can I borrow your yet?"
<mc44> Keybuk: who was on lug radio talking about how these why things dont happen :)
<Nafallo> hehe
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Keybuk] : Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with gutsy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<Keybuk> mc44: must listen to Lug Radio sometime
<cjwatson> Keybuk: the archive's still frozen
<cjwatson> unless somebody unfroze it while the DC was down :P
<Keybuk> err, I didn't actually mean to remove that
<Keybuk> oops :)
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Keybuk] : Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with gutsy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Entire archive frozen for gutsy opening
<Keybuk> mc44: any particularly good episodes to listen to? there seems to be a lot <g>
<mc44> Keybuk: well the latest one has some expert advice from a sysadmin :)
<Nafallo> Keybuk: start with s1e1 and continue listening until jono dies a terrible death :-)
<Keybuk> Nafallo: I tried that last time, and got to something called the "Marketing Special"
<jsgotangco> like not trip on fibre?
<Keybuk> which nobody warned me about
<Keybuk> seriously, that thing is a health risk!
<Keybuk> and I've been too scared to listen to any more
<Nafallo> Keybuk: :-)
<mc44> Keybuk: not even the one with you on? :p
<Keybuk> mc44: listening to that would be just strange
<Keybuk> plus I'll always know that the first version of one of the segments was so much better than the version that got to the recording
<Keybuk> (which was after jono learned how to switch microphones on)
<jono> Keybuk: oi :P
<Nafallo> ROTFL!
<Keybuk> jono: you know that Pia made me sing the song when she picked us up from Sydney airport? :p
<Keybuk> ooh, yttrium is back online
<jono> Keybuk: haha
<jono> brb
<Keybuk> mc44: I came to the conclusion that LugRadio is better to participate in than listen to :p
* Nafallo can hear the servers say "We're BACK!" in real LR-style :-)
<Nafallo> jono: wb :-)
<Keybuk> Nafallo: yttrium is the office
<mc44> Keybuk: if you can survive jono's house, presumably
<Nafallo> Keybuk: archive isn't? :-)
<jono> Keybuk: still seems down here
<seb128> Nafallo: works here
<thom> but the office is point-to-pointed to l3, dunnit?
<pitti> The authenticity of host 'chinstrap.ubuntu.com (82.211.81.135)' can't be established.
<pitti> wtf?
<Nafallo> seb128: same here :-)
<Keybuk> heh, that reminds me of something that never reached the Quotes page
<Keybuk> "fuck that's fast, do you have a direct link to the data centre or something?" ... "yes"
<pitti> ah, back now
<thom> heh
<Spads> We are still working to bring things back on-line
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: "direct link?  No, it goes through an FC switch."
<Mithrandir> :-P
<jono> Spads: its the irc server up yet?
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: it actually goes over the BT cloud
<jono> Spads: seems down
<Spads> jono: still down.  
<jono> Spads: right
<cjwatson> Keybuk: heh, was that me?
<Hobbsee> jono: killed it.  bad jono.
<jono> Hobbsee: heh
* Mithrandir decides it's afternoon and takes off for dinner.
<Keybuk> cjwatson: might have been, I forget who it actually was
<Keybuk> Spads: power failure?
<Spads> Keybuk: Yes.
<Keybuk> isn't that supposed to be infinitely improbable of happening? :p
<mc44> Keybuk: thats "tripped over plug" right?
<ogra> intrestingly the mailservers seem to deliver stuff 
<ogra> i got ML mails all the time
<infinity> ogra: It's all coming back slowly.
<pitti> yay IRC!
<ScottK> pitti: I got a large pile of binary reject notifications for the security uploads for Bug #107628.  Is there anything I need to do to get that fixed?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 107628 in lighttpd "DoS-vulnerability in lighttpd" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/107628
<pitti> ScottK: hm, weird; I just checked the source pacakges, are the binaries in the archive?
<ScottK> pitti: All but AMD64 say need building.
<ScottK> AMD64 I got an accept for.
<pitti> indeed i only see amd64 binaries
<pitti> ScottK: hm, that's weird, I had changes files for all architectures
<ScottK> pitti: And I know it builds on at least i386 because that's what I did my test builds on in pbuilder....
<pitti> ScottK: right, jackass also has all the .debs in the archive
<pitti> they just failed on the way to launchpad and thus archive.u.c.
<pitti> ScottK: crap, this also affected the rdesktop USN
<ScottK> pitti: Sounds like you have your hands full for a bit.  Good luck.
<pitti> ScottK: thanks for pointing out, investigating
<pitti> ScottK: can you please put that mail online?
<pitti> ScottK: or forward it to martin.pitt@ubuntu.com?
<ScottK> pitti: The rejection messages I got?
<pitti> yes, please
<ScottK> I'll forward them to you.
<pitti> ScottK: got it, thanks
<ScottK> pitti: I've sent them all now in two e-mails.
<pitti> ScottK: they all seem to be similar
<ScottK> Yes.  Identical except for which arch or version (Dapper/Edgy) to which they refer.
<ScottK> pitti: One other thing that may or may not be relevant.  There was also an upload to dapper-proposed to make sure that the version there had the security fix too.  Fujitsu did the upload and it seems to have vanished entirely.
<pitti>   lighttpd | 1.4.11-3ubuntu3.0.1 | dapper-security/universe | source, amd64
<pitti>   lighttpd | 1.4.11-3ubuntu3.1 | dapper-proposed/universe | source, amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, powerpc, sparc
<pitti> ScottK: it's still there
<ScottK> OK.  
<ScottK> Odd as it was listed yesterday on my LP package maintenance report and it's not there now: https://launchpad.net/~kitterman/+packages - strange.
<ScottK> I guess that's an artifact of having another Dapper upload to security that came after.
<pitti> likely
<ScottK> pitti: Thanks, just wanted to make sure you had any relevant facts.  Going back to lurking now...
<pitti> ScottK: thanks for your help!
<ScottK> pitti: Just noticed - The version that was uploaded yesterday was 3ubuntu3.2.  3.1 has been there since November.  So it is in fact missing.
<ScottK> Still on my first cup of coffee...
<pitti> ScottK: right, that one is still in unapproved
<pitti>   192538 | S- | lighttpd             | 1.4.11-3ubuntu3.2    | 36 hours
<ScottK> OK.  Who 'approves'?  Is the a MOTU SRU function?
<pitti> I do usually
<ScottK> OK.
<pitti> every few days
<pitti> I am on regular archive admin shift on Fridays, plus when someone pokes me about something urgent
<ScottK> Sounds good then.  I don't think that's urgent as it's not just about to get out of proposed.  Thanks again.
<el_ericho> Hi everybody, i'm trying to fix a bug, but i need some python orientation. 
<el_ericho> This is the bug #109799
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 109799 in bittornado "Bittornado preferences diaog doesn't save the new preferences" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109799
<el_ericho> i'm analyzing the code and i found that in the function saveConfigs on ConfigReader.py, the new values of self.config aren't updated 
<el_ericho> i'm not a python programmer, actually i'm a not a programmer, but i think that this could be a python problem.
<el_ericho> I don't find differences between the edgy package and the feisty package and the original version. 
<bluefoxicy> mmn.  Feisty+1 will run off 2.6.21 or better ... and 2.6.21 has dynticks, which allows for greater power savings.
<bluefoxicy> Someone remind me to do some battery life tests on my laptop when that kernel goes into the dev branch.
<Nafallo> bluefoxicy: i.e. later today hopefully. you might remember that yourself then ;-)
<bluefoxicy> nafallo:  Gutsy is open already?
<Nafallo> bluefoxicy: I run it :-)
<cjwatson> it's still frozen for sorting out the toolchain, but nearly open
<Nafallo> but no. freezed for the toolchain :-)
<Nafallo> frozen. thanks :-9
<Nafallo> :-9
<Nafallo> GAAH
<Nafallo> :-)
<pochu> bluefoxicy: it will run 2.6.22, 99.99% (BenC words) :)
<Nafallo> pochu: 2.6.21-1 seems to be todays upload though ;-)
<pochu> cool :)
<pochu> Nafallo: of course I mean for final, there's no 2.6.22 yet in kernel.org ;)
<BenC> No, today's upload with be 2.6.22-1 (2.6.21 with SUBLEVEL override to save me some work later on)
<Nafallo> :-)
<cjwatson> that'll be confusing
* pochu is already confused :)
<BenC> cjwatson: I did the 2.6.19/2.6.20 thing for feisty, and it was even more confusing
<BenC> basically, it's based on linux-2.6.git which is the 2.6.22 devel tree right now :)
<Nafallo> so 21 will be 22. that should be easy to remember :-P
<Nafallo> BenC: 23 will not be for feisty then? :-)
<BenC> "We're so bleeding edgy, we release new kernels even before Linus!"
<Nafallo> haha
<BenC> err, edge
<bluefoxicy> BenC:  are you enabling dynticks, or is that totally new infrastructure that can't be disabled :)
<saispo> BenC: have you heard some problem with bcm43xx and bitrate under feisty ?
<bluefoxicy> saispo:  bcm43xx needs FIRMWARE ;(
<saispo> yes :/
<BenC> bluefoxicy: NO_HZ is enabled for generic kernels
<bluefoxicy> BenC:  lovely.
<BenC> saispo: hell, I've experienced it :)
<saispo> :)
<BenC> saispo: the open source driver, due to being a reverse engineering project still in its infancy, has issues still
<saispo> BenC: i have a 11 mbit/s bitrate on my desktop and on my laptop i have 54 mbit/s
<BenC> one of them being trouble with distance to the AP (I couldn't move more than 20 feet from my AP)
<BenC> saispo: connection quality may affect that
<saispo> BenC: yep, but want to try, i remember under edgy, no problem...
<saispo> and under Mandriva, no problem
<BenC> saispo: Ah, we forced it to 11Mbit by default because I don't think 54 works at all
<saispo> BenC: ok
<saispo> how can i bypass this ?
<BenC> in fact, on my ppc, it wouldn't do over 2mbit :/
<saispo> :/
<bluefoxicy> some open source firmware for that thing would get me hot
<bluefoxicy> Firmware is an amazing thing.
<BenC> saispo: iwconfig eth1 rate 54M
<Nafallo> saispo: easy! plug a wire in :-)
<Nafallo> better security aswell ;-)
<saispo> Nafallo: yes, i really think about it :)
<bluefoxicy> You can fine-tune the performance of the hardware itself, possibly even take a shitty device and make it a top-performing device.
<bluefoxicy> Nintendo 64
<saispo> BenC: i will try some test at 54 mbits, i will tell you if it's stable or not :)
<bluefoxicy> One company rewrote the CPU microcode for the graphics controller, got it to output 3 times the polygons per second and everything looked infinitely better (nintendo banned them from using the modification), the original code was horribly profiled :)
<saispo> BenC: it's possible to fix it permanently N
<saispo> ?
<yondie> hello guys just wondering is this there something wrong with my tee usage in this if...then...fi scripts?
<yondie> http://rafb.net/p/v7lNKp52.html
<Treenaks> tee writes to stdout.. and to a file you give it
<Treenaks> redirecting like that twice won't work
<Treenaks> afaik
<yondie> Treenaks: if i type the command at line 5  in the terminal just like dat,, it works !!
<yondie> Treenaks: it didn`t work when i use in if.then.fi
<Treenaks> ah
<Treenaks>  /bin/sh vs /bin/bash
<Treenaks> you must be using a bash extension
<Treenaks> also, please read the topic: this channel isn't about application development
<yondie> i`m sorry
<Treenaks> np, just pointing out ;)
<ScottK> pitti: Looks like the lighttpd security updates made it out.  Thanks.
<cjwatson> indeed, >(...) is a bash extension
<yondie> cjwatson: any idea how to fixed it? i know it's offtopic
<cjwatson> there should be channels around more appropriate for shell scripting questions
<yondie> wokey
<pochu> heno: https://beta.launchpad.net/~isotesting :)
<heno> pochu: lovely :)
<pochu> cool :)
<pochu> the small one still needs some work, but I think they're pretty good
<sn0> looks nice :) /me joins
<pochu> sn0: :)
<jcole> hey dudes
<jcole> what's the best way to integrate a system configure shell script into the boot process (/etc/init.d) that starts before gdm and the other services with upstart?
<Keybuk> same as with sysvinit
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:Mithrandir] : Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with gutsy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Gutsy open, go wild!
<soothsay> Anybody know how to set up debarchiver on Ubuntu?
* Mithrandir ponders running the first "auto" sync run for this cycle.
<tepsipakki> Mithrandir: why wait :)
<Nafallo> Mithrandir: bring it on! :-D
<Nafallo> Mithrandir: or wait until the first kernel has started building maybe? :-)
* \sh starts on a gui for bughelper
<Goliath23> hi. it seems that 64bit ubuntu has a problem with LD_PRELOADing libaoss. is that a known bug? (if it'
<Goliath23> s a bug)
<Goliath23> no matter what program I try to run with oass I get: ERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/lib/libaoss.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.
* Adri2000 wonders why we don't have git-buildpackage - has been in debian since sept 2006, and I don't see it in sync-blacklist.txt
<pochu> do NEW packages get synced automatically?
<Adri2000> yes
<pochu> ok :)
<sladen>  vvvvvvcccccccccccccccccccccccCccccccccccnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
<kylem> very nice.
<thom> uh, sladen
<Treenaks> I think we'll have to kill his cat
<sladen> oops, that was an Debian KDE ex-Maintainer's cat
<sladen> maybe it'll be an ex-cat soon, though nchip might be disappointed
<ogra> sladen, so he moved to be a debian gnome maintainer now ? 
<Keybuk> pochu: no
<pochu> Adri2000: ^
* \sh heard rumours that ogra will switch to be a kedubuntu developer ,-)
<ogra> lol
<Keybuk> pochu: nothing is synced automatically
<ogra> who is spreading that ? :)
<pochu> Keybuk: don't we automatically sync from debian at the beggining of the cycle?
<Adri2000> pochu: eh, Keybuk syncs the NEW packages I believe :)
<\sh> ogra, hehe...how's live, man :) btw..you are invited to karlsruhe, when I moved places with my GF in may :)
<Adri2000> but I guess he syncs them all
<Keybuk> nope
<Keybuk> new in Debian are done individually
<Keybuk> not en-masse
<Treenaks> Keybuk: and 'the rest' of Debian?
<ogra> \sh, busy as hell, if i dont sint on the lappie i'm renovating this huge house or care for the garden ... 
<Keybuk> Treenaks: they're done mostly automatically by hand
<ogra> \sh, i'll happily drop by if i'm in karlsruhe any time soon ... feel free to ping if you are in kassel :)
<\sh> ogra, oh I think I'll have a trip to kassel after linuxtag then :)
<Keybuk> ie. the automatic sync everything newer in Debian and unmodified in Ubuntu is run by hand every day by some poor sod
<Keybuk> (previously me :p)
<elmo> Keybuk: what kind of vetting do you do on NEW?
<Keybuk> elmo: much
<elmo> Keybuk: I use to pull it all in blind \o/
<ogra> \sh, this year is documenta year ... lots of arts stuff going on here :)
<ogra> http://documenta.de/
<Keybuk> I pretty much treat new-from Debian as I would stuff in NEW, and looked at them individually
<pochu> Mithrandir: there's no PPC port for xubuntu feisty final, though you did one for the beta. Could you please make it?
<Keybuk> pochu: feisty has been released already
<elmo> Keybuk: why bother?
<\sh> ogra, I sponsor the beer :) greetings to Suse btw...
<pochu> Keybuk: I know, but you still can run the publisher, or whatever you do, right? :)
<Keybuk> elmo: because motu uploaded stuff by themselves under different names, or they broke our patches, or they were part of transitions that needed care, etc.
<Keybuk> pochu: then it wouldn't be necessarily the same as the candidate at the time
<elmo> Keybuk: *shrug* k (it's your time)
<Keybuk> elmo: actually, I'm not doing it this time round ;)
<Keybuk> (yay, having staff :p)
<ogra> \sh, she sends greetings back to you :)
<\sh> ogra, thx :)
<pochu> Keybuk: I haven't said it would be ;) just that there's a precedent ;)
<Mithrandir> pochu: has anybody actually tested the images?
<pochu> the beta images?
<Mithrandir> no
<Mithrandir> the daily ones
<pochu> let me see
<ogra> Mithrandir, you havent yet ? man how are we ever supposed to get gutsy stable :P
<ogra> oh, you are discussing xubuntu feisty, sorry i thought that was a gutsy question :)
<pochu> ogra: anyway, feel free to test them :p
<ogra> pochu, could do that on the weekend
<ogra> but no promises, i'm not sure about my spare time ...
<pochu> ogra: no worries, I'm looking whether it has already been tested or not
<pochu> maybe you can just install the final release then ;)
<ogra> i think ppc did generally not get as much testing this time 
<pochu> maybe it has already been done :)
<cjwatson> Keybuk: anything I saw in NEW with a Debian-style version number during the semiautosync period, I just shoved straight in
<cjwatson> Keybuk: if I was feeling particularly diligent I might have checked that it actually came from Debian
<ogra> oh, we have hal-info as separate package now ... 
* ogra hugs pitti 
<pitti> ogra: yes, it was split upstream for easier maintenance and faster releasing
<ogra> yeah, they were always moaning that we dot ship it when i asked for help in #hal :)
<ogra> *dont
<pitti> just because 0.5.8.1 still hadn't split it
<ogra> yeah
<seb128> dist-upgrade to gutsy, utch
<seb128> After unpacking 481MB of additional disk space will be used.
<pitti> seb128: wtf??
<seb128> pitti: I blame all the tex*
<seb128> 55 upgraded, 40 newly installed, 1 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
<seb128> Need to get 345MB of archives.
<pitti> ah, right, my fault even :/
<seb128> I can't do the update :(
<Mithrandir> "auto"-sync is up to c now.
<Keybuk> cjwatson: yeah, if they reached our NEW, I'd already checked them -- I did it before sync'ing
<seb128> my /usr has not enough space
<seb128> grrr
<pitti> seb128: it might help to uninstall tetex-extra
<seb128> pitti: trying
<pitti> seb128: then it doesn't pull in all that additional stuff you probably won't
<pitti> need
<LaserJock> pitti: have you merged texlive yet? or is gutsy even ready for that?
<pitti> LaserJock: everything is in gutsy :)
<seb128> pitti: After unpacking 93.2MB of additional disk space will be used.
<seb128> much better ;)
<pitti> better
<cjwatson> Keybuk: from the point of view of somebody processing NEW, it wasn't certain whether they came from the sync process or were random uploads
<seb128> pitti: how come than text require an extra 350M now?
<seb128> s/text/tex
<pitti> seb128: texlive is vastly bigger than tetex, and the transitional dependencies were designed to err on the safe side
<pitti> seb128: i. e. not break people's TeX systems when they had tetex-{base,extra} before
<seb128> hum, k
<pitti> you can probably strip it down heavily
<Keybuk> cjwatson: yes, I did try and do them at the same time, but sometimes forgot :)
<LaserJock> pitti: is that going to cause .iso size issues?
<pitti> LaserJock: I doubt it, TeX isn't on the CDs
<pitti> at most libkpathsea
<pitti> well, so I would think anyway
<LaserJock> hmm, I thought -bin or -base was
<pitti> LaserJock: no, just checked; only libkpathsea
<LaserJock> ok, cool
<LaserJock> TeX is an absolute beast when it comes to disk space
<LaserJock> I did a svn checkout of the debian-tex-maint repo the other day
<LaserJock> 22GB
<geser> is texlive that big?
<LaserJock> mdz: ping regarding ubuntu-tex mailing list
<pitti> LaserJock: do you really think that this will be necessary?
<LaserJock> geser: not exactly, they have copies of upstream releases for tetex and texlive
<LaserJock> pitti: what? the ML?
<pitti> yes
<geser> LaserJock: have we already have a package list for which ubuntu-tex should be a bug contact?
<mdz> LaserJock: dev team meeting in progress
<ajmitch> morning
<LaserJock> well, I've got 12 members in ~ubuntu-tex 
<LaserJock> and I wanted to set up a ML for bug contacts
<LaserJock> mdz: sorry
<LaserJock> I could be just me, but I find it difficult to coordinate anything without a mailing list
<mdz> LaserJock: you are quite welcome to use ubuntu-devel to coordinate, your participation will be welcome!
<geser> LaserJock: wasn't it suggested to use the ubuntu-devel ml for coordination? until we generate to much traffic
<LaserJock> alright then
<popey> bug 110361 :( :( :(
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 110361 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.20 "New feisty 64bit install causes nvidia card failure" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110361
* ogra glares at siretart's first gutsy upload ... 
<seb128> ogra: gnome-screensaver 2.19.1 is available
<seb128> 2.19.1.1 rather
<ogra> seb128, do we ship it through -updates ?
<siretart> ogra: err, huh?
<seb128> no, it's 2.19
<seb128> even number is unstable cycle
<siretart> ogra: you mean 'sauerbraten'?
<ogra> oh, indeed .. heh sorry, had a long day
<seb128> ogra: that's new cycle starting, to upload to gutsy ;)
<ogra> siretart, yeah
<pitti> ogra: oh, that was from a sync request in feisty times
<siretart> ogra: that was no upload, but a sync request, which was actually requested for feisty
<ogra> heh
<ajmitch> ogra: does that mean you won't get any work done for a few days? :)P
<fabbione> <Keybuk> me also, I have mvo, fabbione and tfheen yet to go
<fabbione> Keybuk: ^^^ phone call tomorrow?
<ogra> ajmitch, i didnt plan to play it ... the name is just weird :)
<Keybuk> fabbione: I'm doing it by e-mail, since I'm running up oxford street with work right now
<fabbione> Keybuk: ok
<Keybuk> and I'm away all next week :-/
<fabbione> fun
<Keybuk> aye
<Keybuk> yay tech tour
<fabbione> yeah i know
<jcole> Keybuk: thanks
<Keybuk> jcole: for?
<jcole> Goliath23: try to rebuild it
<Goliath23> jcole: what?
<Goliath23> teamspeak? aoss? wine?
<psusi> if I'm fixing a bug in a package and there is a newer version availible from the upstream source, but not debian, should I update to the upstream version?
<jcole> (11:05:26 AM) jcole: what's the best way to integrate a system configure shell script into the boot process (/etc/init.d) that starts before gdm and the other services with upstart?
<jcole> (11:09:05 AM) Keybuk: same as with sysvinit
<jcole> Goliath23: aoss
<Nafallo> Keybuk: are you going to convert the world to upstart this cycle? :-)
<Goliath23> jcole: reinstall or rebuild?
<pitti> psusi: please first merge with Debian, then update to new upstream
<pitti> psusi: avoids lots of mess in the next merge step
<Keybuk> Nafallo: :-)
<ogra> Nafallo, ++
<jcole> Goliath23: i don't know why, but sometimes when i rebuild a package natively on amd64 it works "better"
<Nafallo> Keybuk: in that case, gimme a handson with one script so I can help you with the rest of them :-)
<Goliath23> jcole: I think its just that the installed 64 bit ld.so can not preload 32 bit libraries.
<Goliath23> I probably wait for teamspeak3 using alsa, then I don't have to fiddle around with aoss
<Keybuk> Nafallo: see latest mail from me on upstart-devel ;)
<Goliath23> and preload "hacks" :)
<Keybuk> help solve that problem and it's easy
<Nafallo> Keybuk: so I should sign up then? :-)
<psusi> pitti: getting the changes into debian can take months or never though ;(
<psusi> pitti: and our package already has deviated from the debian version
<tarzeau> anyone wants to try a new game?
<pitti> psusi: right, but from the merging POV it's still better to merge first and then upgrade
<tarzeau> http://gnu.ethz.ch/debian/yap/yetanotherpacman_1.11-1_i386.deb
<Keybuk> Nafallo: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/upstart-devel/2007-April/000363.html
<pitti> tarzeau: 'pacman' ... 'new'
<tarzeau> pitti: yep, pretty nice
<Nafallo> Keybuk: I'll grab the whole archive and convert it to maildir instead :-)
<Goliath23> jcole: If I wanted to recompile the package that contains aoss, where could I read how to do that?
<fabbione> tarzeau: best flight simulator EVAR http://www.ioccc.org/1998/banks.c
<Goliath23> I guess I'd have to install the source package and run some dpkg commands?
<tarzeau> fabbione: haha
<tarzeau> pitti: new is new, and modern is different
<pitti> tarzeau: just joking :)
<Goliath23> fabbione: doesn't compile! :)
<Keybuk> Nafallo: so, any ideas? :p
<tarzeau> Goliath23: same here
<fabbione> Goliath23: file a bug
<Goliath23> m.c:6: Fehler: dt ist hier nicht deklariert (nicht in einer Funktion)
<Goliath23> hehe
<fabbione> Goliath23: that's locales fault..
<jcole> Goliath23: apt-get source alsa-oss
<ogra> bryce, apt-cache rdepends xresprobe ...
<ogra> its a binary dep of xserver-xorg
<jcole> Goliath23: http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/20
<Nafallo> Keybuk: that needs a good nights dreaming to find an answer to ;-)
<cjwatson> ogra: can I answer please?
<ogra> cjwatson, indeed
<seb128> ogra: no it's not
<Nafallo> s/to/too/
<cjwatson> bryce: ogra is mistaken here, it's only a Recommends
<ogra> oh, sorry
* ogra really needs to stop using rdepends ... :/
<cjwatson> bryce: so, the background is that we put it in the 'ship' seed (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement) so that it was possible to remove it after installation to avoid cruft
<bryce> ahh
<cjwatson> bryce: (at the time we didn't have any other mechanism to have stuff installed by default but removable; Recommends in ubuntu-desktop is a recent innovation)
<cjwatson> bryce: an installer component explicitly arranged for it to be installed if you were installing the desktop
<bryce> cool, ok I was just concerned if there was an incompatibility or some such
<cjwatson> at the time, it had to be unpacked *and configured* (which is unusual) before X was even installed, so this wasn't an extra hardship
<doko> pitti, Mithrandir: is texlive ready?
<pitti> doko: yes, it is
<cjwatson> bryce: but that was all in the alternate installer, and this was back before the desktop installer was implemented
<fabbione> doko: upgrading now
<Goliath23> jcole: thanks
<pitti> doko: we stalled the opening of gutsy until it was
<doko> ok, because python2.5 did fail to build, looking at it now
<fabbione> sparc exploded...
<cjwatson> bryce: I have a suspicion, though haven't verified, that the desktop installer never installed xresprobe on the target system
<bryce> ok, I have a feeling (but no evidence) that some of the reported bugs with monitor mis-detection in feisty might be caused by a missing xresprobe
<cjwatson> bryce: we put it in the live seed, which means that it's installed in the live session but removed on copy to the target system
<cjwatson> bryce: however, we wouldn't have noticed this because xorg.conf is copied over from the live session
<fabbione> doko: what did you do to sparc?
<bryce> there's at least one case of someone changing video cards after a feisty install and things started majorly misworking 
<tepsipakki> bryce: that's true, there are reports where the same image works sometimes
<fabbione> doko: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/gutsy_probs.html
<cjwatson> bryce: so the only way this could matter is if something is re-running xresprobe after initial installation
<mdz> bryce: we don't even try to make that work at present
<tepsipakki> bryce: actually, not missing xresprobe but dmidecode not working
<mdz> bryce: there's no mechanism to re-detect if the hardware is changed
<cjwatson> right, if they had to reconfigure X and xresprobe wasn't installed, this would be problematic
<mdz> bryce: I'm hoping this will become less of an issue with display hotplug
<cjwatson> but as mdz says, this will only be done if you explicitly dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg, AFAIK
<bryce> right, iirc they reconfigured X but of course it didn't detect things correctly
<bryce> mdz, agreed
<Keybuk> doesn't this stuff vaguely go away with Xorg 1.3?
<cjwatson> as I said by mail, I moved xresprobe to be a recommends of desktop, which should clear that up
<cjwatson> Keybuk: only once the configuration stuff is also adapted
<cjwatson> and assuming that xserver 1.3 does everything we want
* Keybuk has seen "I removed my xorg.conf and X still works" blog posts
<Mithrandir> fabbione: python2.5 blew up
<ogra> Keybuk, i suspect they cpoied it to ~ :P
<fabbione> doko: ^^ please fix. kthxbye
<tepsipakki> display-hotplug affectes the output-devices.. the server can detect correct driver already
<ogra> *copied
<fabbione> Mithrandir: thanks
<mdz> Keybuk: we know there are cases where that's true, but what we need to know is when it doesn't :-)
<bryce> Keybuk: yup, the plan though is to still support the xresprobe approach as a fallback
<cjwatson> I have a suspicion that somebody (*cough* hi bryce) is going to have to spend a few weeks going through all the workarounds we have built up over time and ensuring that they are all included in the serverr
<cjwatson> server
<bryce> :-)
<Mithrandir> fabbione: I'll give it back and it'll hopefully explode less.
<fabbione> Mithrandir: thanks...
<cjwatson> X hackers tend to have well-supported graphics cards on the machines where they hack on this sort of thing ...
<pitti> Keybuk: "I removed my xorg.conf and X still works" -> me too, I got that in r-m bug reports
<mdz> the panel detection stuff can most likely go away entirely, since that was a twisted loop querying the X server to get information to write xorg.conf
<doko> fabbione, Mithrandir: looking at it now. the archive is open now?
<mdz> but the cases where both DDC and the driver fail to detect the display, those we still need to handle somehow
<Keybuk> cjwatson: pushing new recruits into the deep end is one thing, put pushing them into the shark-with-frickin-laser-beams-on-their-foreheads and piranha infested waters is another entirely!
<cjwatson> doko: yes
<fabbione> mdz: hey.. that was a real piece of working art 2 years ago
<pitti> doko: yes, you can upload wildly
<Mithrandir> doko: yes, the archive is open; I just gave back python2.5 which should hopefully fix this.
<tepsipakki> currently the server only works either without a config or a valid config
<cjwatson> Keybuk: I was planning to give him some kind of forcefield shield. Does that make it morally OK?
<tepsipakki> er, "with a valid config"
<cjwatson> "the X server works if and only if your configuration is broken"
<bryce> hehe
<tepsipakki> but gravity is working on that
<fabbione> X server works because Chuck Norris wrote it
<tepsipakki> :)
<ogra> he did ? 
<tepsipakki> with just one hand.. behind the back
<mdz> bryce: everyone whose brain we need to pick about this will be at UDS.  bring a list of questions!
<doko> Mithrandir: no, have to upload a python-defaults with loosened dependencies first
<bryce> cool, will doo
<bryce> er, -o
<Mithrandir> doko: ok, have fun.
<fabbione> brainsik: and beer please :)
<fabbione> ops
<tepsipakki> please pick the debian brains as well
<fabbione> bryce: ^^
<Mithrandir> fabbione: beer isn't really enough.  Might well need tequila or stronger too.
<fabbione> bryce: the more beer.. the more i will answer ;)
<brainsik> fabbione: huh?
<fabbione> Mithrandir: beer to start... i need to warm up again
<fabbione> brainsik: sorry.. wrong tab
<brainsik> fabbione: :)
<bryce> fabbione: :-)
<ogra> bryce, you have nfs4 experience ? 
<fabbione> X over nfs4 ?
<ogra> :P
<fabbione> i actually configured decnet here at home
<mdz> on that note, good night. I am almost out of battery
<bryce> ogra: yup
<ogra> fabbione, nope, i'm trying to get ltsp with nfs4 nfsroot going ... :)
<fabbione> i need to see if xtrans extensions are working
<bryce> mdz, night!  thanks
<fabbione> mdke: night dude
<ogra> bryce, i'll pay some of fabbiones beers for you then :)
<ogra> and pick your brain a bit if you dont mind :)
<Nafallo> oh. Keybuk left :-P
<bryce> ogra, sure :-)
<ogra> ;)
<\sh> ogra, nfs4 is a charme...less trouble with network admins and their broken firewall appliances ;)
<ogra> \sh, its a pain in initramfs :)
<ogra> but i got it roughly working now ... 
<fabbione> ogra: nothing is pain...
<\sh> ogra, I migrated our old nfs3 auto home fs to nfs4..now I'm stucked with the sles9 integration of nfs4..:(
<fabbione> pain is pleasure and fun
<ajmitch> fabbione: masochist
<\sh> SM!
<ogra> fabbione, indeed, i picked that pain :)
<fabbione> ajmitch: i didn't say inflicting the pain on who :)
<Nafallo> oh. what a twist to the discussion ;-)
<fabbione> Nafallo: never seen Hell Raiser (the movies)?
<Nafallo> fabbione: I think I have one of them somewhere, but not really, no :-)
<\sh> oh guys, I do have a good working openldap config for user auth, and sudo-ldap integration...I think tomorrow I'm starting to migrate the ldap-master server from sles to ubuntu
<fabbione> Nafallo: ehhh
<ajmitch> I can't say much, I'm just installing longhorn server in vmware to test out samba & AD 
<ajmitch> \sh: good
<ogra> ajmitch, shudder
<ajmitch> ogra: I know
<Nafallo> ajmitch: nice. did you pay for it? ;-)
<ajmitch> Nafallo: no, open beta
<Nafallo> :-)
<\sh> ajmitch, need to change the acl from old file style to new bdb backend style 
<Nafallo> would rock if we integrate with it when it's released :-)
<ajmitch> Nafallo: that's mostly up to the samba team
<Nafallo> ajmitch: they have the goal though?
<ajmitch> of course, it'll be a requirement
<Nafallo> nice. can we get back to SM now. that's not half as painful as Windows ;-)
<ajmitch> hehe
<ogra> lol
<\sh> good night folks...time to get a life...
<welshbyte> i've just seen someone say on a list that the server and desktop versions of ubuntu use the same kernel, is that true?
<Nafallo> no
<welshbyte> didn't think so
<Nafallo> -server vs -generic
<ivoks> did anyone tried oem before release? :)
<Mithrandir> libe* and counting..
<ajmitch> so we'll just have to wait for buildds to catch up then
<Nafallo> Mithrandir: autosyncing? :-)
<Mithrandir> Nafallo: "auto", yes.
<Nafallo> nice :-)
<Mithrandir> this is just the "download into the ~/syncs bit.  Then it'll have to be processed.
<ajmitch> ah
<cjwatson> grr @ ivoks
<cjwatson> "doesn't work for me" != "nobody tried it"
#ubuntu-devel 2007-04-27
<Mithrandir> yay, lib* done
<Fujitsu> Mithrandir: How long does this all generally take to build?
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: I don't know, a week maybe?
<cjwatson> usually not that long IIRC
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: remember that etch released some time ago, so Debian will have quite an influx of new versions of stuff.
<Mithrandir> oh well, anyway, it'll take a while.
<cjwatson> true
<geser> we have 6 months to get it build :)
<Mithrandir> heh
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: the sync process seems to be going quite happily.  I think I'll just head off for the night and run process-incoming in the morning.  It's either that or cancel it now and run process-incoming now.
<infinity> Mithrandir: Best to wait until doko's fixed the python mess.
<infinity> Mithrandir: So we don't have to retry the world on sparc/powerpc.
<Fujitsu> infinity's alive!
<infinity> Fujitsu: Am not.
<lifeless> but are you countable ?
<Mithrandir> infinity: that too.
<Mithrandir> oh, I shouldn't have said that about it running fine.
<Fujitsu> Mithrandir: It just imploded?
<Mithrandir> yes, fell over on mol.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: *nod*
<Mithrandir> which it really, really shouldn't.
<Mithrandir> well, blacklisted, bed.
<geser> infinity: any progress on bug #87077?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 87077 in launchpad-buildd "The build of xmms2 fails because of HASH(0x82db558)="" in the environment" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/87077
* Fujitsu pats reliable Soyuz
<BenC> Can I get linux-source processed through NEW for gutsy please?
<cjwatson> BenC: source accepted
<BenC> cjwatson: thanks...I've got lrm uploading too, if you'll be around in 15 minutes
<cjwatson> unlikely
<cjwatson> it'd have to wait for the main kernel to build anyway
<jcole> on ubuntu feisty, this site crashes firefox -> http://www.crashie.com 
<jcole> $ firefox http://www.crashie.com 
<jcole> /usr/lib/firefox/firefox-bin: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/firefox/components/libmyspell.so: undefined symbol: _ZN8Hunspell5spellEPKc
<jcole> it's *supposed* to crash ie, but it also crashes ubuntu firefox
<lifeless> lol
<lifeless> bug compatability
<jcole> mozilla (aka iceape) works perfectly fine
<BenC> jcole: doesn't for me
<jcole> from the mozilla devs:
<jcole> (04:59:22 PM) bz: talk to whoever built your Firefox
<jcole> (04:59:25 PM) bz: they screwed up
* jcole shuts off beryl and tries
<jcole> same thing
<bhale> who did build your firefox?
<bhale> because it does no such thing here
<jcole> came from pool/main/f/firefox/firefox_2.0.0.3+1-0ubuntu2_i386.deb
<lifeless> bhale: do you have that myspell.so ?
<bhale> lifeless: nope.
<jcole> $ dpkg -L firefox | grep libmyspell.so
<jcole> /usr/lib/firefox/components/libmyspell.so
<bhale> lifeless: actually, i do.
<bhale> heh
<lifeless> ldd and nm are your friends at this point
<lifeless> find where that symbol is coming from 
<Nafallo> nafallo@silverfairy:~ $ LANG="C" grep _ZN8Hunspell5spellEPKc /usr/lib/firefox/components/libmyspell.so 
<Nafallo> Binary file /usr/lib/firefox/components/libmyspell.so matches
<Nafallo> so far so good
<jcole> $ md5sum /usr/lib/firefox/firefox-bin /usr/lib/firefox/components/libmyspell.so
<jcole> 10c64c95e06cff7f6b8994070ddd2a64  /usr/lib/firefox/firefox-bin
<jcole> 5d8c9da487f3c07ea486281200e9d7d6  /usr/lib/firefox/components/libmyspell.so
<jcole> Nafallo: ^^^ is that the same on your system?
<Nafallo> yes
* jcole discovers bug 107340
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 107340 in firefox "[EDGY]  firefox crashed [@ mozSpellChecker::GetCurrentDictionary]  [@ mozSpellI18NManagerConstructor] " [High,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/107340
<mario> hi jdong 
<jdong> hi mario
<jdong> how's things?
<mario> bad :( I'm sick, and have high temperature, and I gotta work :(
<jdong> aww, sorry to hear that
<jdong> I've got something that will make you feel even worse.....
<jdong> /dev/sdb1 on /mnt type reiser4 (rw,noatime,nodiratime)
<jdong> LOL
<mario> heh :P
<mario> how is it going ? :)
<jdong> it's only been 15 minutes with it.... but I must say I am impressed
<mario> hehe, is that stable enough?
<jdong> I'm rsyncing my root to it as a benchmark
<jdong> I know XFS took 1h45m to do this task
<jdong> so far it's been 15m and it's already like 40% done
<mario> nice, but watch out for reliability
<jdong> I know, I know, that will be a long term judgement
<jdong> I did two power-off tests
<jdong> actually, unplug USB tests.
<jdong> a 300MB TV episode
<jdong> copied a second 350MB one into it.
<jdong> (overwrite)
<jdong> pulled out disk 15 seconds later
<jdong> after a mount, md5sum matches original 300MB episode
<jdong> very impressive considering it writes at raw speed of the device (30MB/s)
<jdong> it will be interesting to see how long term stability is....
<jdong> and also if it has any severe weaknesses
<mario> nod^^
<jdong> but I plan to test that over the course of the next few weeks
<jdong> I used reiser4 on 2.6.8 when it was first released, while running Gentoo
<jdong> (before Ubuntu days...)
<jdong> I liked it back then, but found in Ubuntu rolling my own kernel was too much work
<mario> I know when 2.6.8 was :P
<jdong> lol, I'm sorry I'm belittling you :P
<mario> it was when jorg started complaining that kernel devs are filtering all the scsi stuff :P
<jdong> have you heard of this KDE thing? I've heard like it's another operating system on Linux or something. ;-)
<jdong> LOL
<mario> aggresive filtering was introduced in .8 and .9, it was fine-tuned since then, but oh well
<mario> jdong, what's KDE? Never heard of that toy.
<jdong> lol
<jdong> I do notice that reiser4 uses pretty high CPU compared to other FS'es
<jdong> this rsync is using like 30% of one core
<jdong> but CPU usage for blazing fast IO? I'm willing to make that tradeoff
<jdong> I just wish one could buy more IO speed for more CPU :D
<Hobbsee> hi
<jsgotangco> hey Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> hi spam :)
<Hobbsee> how's it going?
<jsgotangco> ah well just waiting for lunch really
<Hobbsee> :)
<ajmitch> hey Hobbsee 
<Hobbsee> hi ajmitch 
<fabbione> morning
<ajmitch> morning fabbione 
<Amaranth> tepsipakki: is xlib going to use xcb again in gutsy?
<fabbione> what's the equivalen of if [ -n "$var" ]  in perl?
<Seveas> fabbione, something like 'if $var =~ m/.+/' would do it but there probabl are better ways :)
<fabbione> Seveas: thanks
<mpt> I have sound again!
* mpt does the happy dance
<tepsipakki> Amaranth: yes, although you should ask bryce about X in the future ;)
<Amaranth> X is the new firefox!
<tepsipakki> Amaranth: meaning.. ?
<Amaranth> tepsipakki: you touch it you own it, the person responsible for it changes all the time :)
<tepsipakki> ah, ok :)
<elkbuntu> ok who's the meanie that stole launchpad and wiki this time? :(
<fabbione> elkbuntu: they are already working on it :)
<fabbione> see #launchpad
<Mithrandir> heh, I get "argument list too long" when I try to move all the syncs. :-P
<fabbione> Mithrandir: did you make LP explode.. didn't you?
<Mithrandir> no, I didn't.  I might make it explode now.
<qiyong> why ntfs is read only? why not rw?
<Fujitsu> !ntfs | qiyong 
* superm1 pokes ubotu 
* Fujitsu hits ubotu.
* Fujitsu drops a limp Launchpad on ubotu.
<qiyong> Fujitsu, ubotu hungs
<pitti> Good morning
<Fujitsu> Hi pitti.
<ajmitch> hey pitti 
<ubotu> qiyong: To view your Windows/Mac partitions see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AutomaticallyMountPartitions . For write access see !ntfs-3g or !fuse
<sponix> anyone care about my ATI Radeon X1400 not working with Feisty (X7.2) like it did with 6.10 (X7.1)
<sladen> sponix: regression?  what's the bug number?
<sponix> sladen:  not sure if its filed, just thought I'd bring it up
<tepsipakki> sponix: 89853
<sladen> sponix: if it's not filed, then nobody will have seen it
<sponix> had to install 55Meg ATI commercial driver from a thumbdrive to continue the installer :P
<sponix> tepsipakki:  ok, so its being worked already ?
<tepsipakki> yes, sort of
<jdong> it is a known bug....
<sladen> bug #89853
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 89853 in xorg-server "[regression]  7.2 broke vesa: "No matching modes found"" [High,Needs info]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/89853
<sponix> well, X is to blame, openSuSE has the same issue with 7.2
<Treenaks> We really really need a new/better ati driver 8)
<sponix> is it just my X1400 ati card, or several cards ?
* Treenaks looks at HIS pet bug
<jdong> the whole X1x00 line
<tepsipakki> it's a bug in the server
<sponix> I go to ATI (amd), and hit the feedback all the time, and state "your drivers still blow, and you need to make a good opensource one"
* Treenaks pokes planet
<sponix> honestly I felt that was pretty straight forward :P
<tepsipakki> fedora has a patch for it, but when combined with a patch for the driver it makes the server to crash
<jdong> sponix: from a company who wants to enforce DRM by locking the framebuffer, I would not waste your breath on AMD.
<tepsipakki> maybe it's time to upload new server&vesa to feisty-proposed
<jdong> I hope their $600m quarterly losses trend continues until they realize what their consumers want
<jdong> wow... I'm cold today :)
<sponix> jdong:  yeah, I use to hate Intel (wintel) for siding with Microsoft on so many things, but lately with the ATI/AMD merge, I'm looking more at the rare Intel/Nvidia boxen
<sladen> tepsipakki: does that fix it, or just make things crash?
<sponix> speaking of, is that intel 950 chip worth a shit, I see it in a bunch of laptops now
<jdong> sponix: intell is OSS friendly....
<sladen> sponix: Intel have the best Linux/Open drivers you'll get
<jdong> sponix: and the GMA950 is the start of a better trend in GPU power
<jdong> sponix: it's still not spectacular, but the GMA x3000 is due to be out this quarter
* Treenaks wonders how good the via chips/drivers are nowadays
<jdong> and next year's montavena is bringing even a better GMA
<pitti> Mithrandir: can you please give-back hal on powerpc and sparc? it failed due to a python package inconsistency, but it looks fine now
<jdong> Treenaks: via_sata has always been buggy for me
<sponix> wtf is a GMA ?
<jdong> at the BIOS level
<Treenaks> jdong: no, I mean unichrome :)
<Treenaks> jdong: the X thing
<jdong> sponix: "graphics media accelerator"
<sponix> so, I shouldn't be scared of getting a laptop with an intel video chip aye
<jdong> a video card, in other words.
<jdong> you should welcome Intel video
<jdong> one of the best 100% OSS video cards
<sponix> heard of gpu.. never gma :P
<jdong> GMA is intel's branding
<jdong> Intel GMA950
<jdong> actually it's the Intel 945GMA
<jdong> yay marketing bling
<jdong> the more terms, the more likely people will say it?
<pitti> Mithrandir: likewise avahi
<jdong> and maybe your nickname for AMD should be amDRM too :D
<Mithrandir> pitti: doing
<tepsipakki> sladen: drpping the vesa-patch and adding one to server seems to work for at least some of the reporters
<tepsipakki> +o
<sponix> jdong:  thanks for the info
<jdong> not a problem
<sponix> crap I got right now doesn't even do beryl
<jdong> yes it does
<Mithrandir> pitti: both given back
<jdong> set up Xgl
<jdong> but this is very OT
<sponix> OT ?
<jdong> fwiw I have an x1400 mobile and have been running Xgl and Beryl since Dapper
<pitti> Mithrandir: thanks
<jdong> off topic... this is a developer channel
<jdong> for development related topics
<sponix> jdong:  fair enough, good to know anyway
<jdong> yep :)
<\sh> hmmmm...I just received an email from LP about my expiration of core-dev membership...and now I have to talk to the team admin ;) which is sabdfl... what is the correct way? talking to the tb on the 5th of may during the normal meeting, or talking to sabdfl?
<sponix> I normally am off topic, thats why #ubuntu-offtopic is my main channel :P
<sladen> tepsipakki: ping me when it's up and I'll test it here (Intel)
<jdong> tepsipakki: same goes; I have the affected x1400 ; be glad to test
<Mithrandir> pitti: have you seen the new gnome disk manager?
<tepsipakki> sladen: you have problems with intel? This isn't for you, then ;)
<sponix> jdong:  did you do the same thing I did, boot from CD, install commercial driver from thumbdrive, and proceed ? :)
<pitti> Mithrandir: not yet; I hope it's more sensible than the old disks-admin
<jdong> sponix: nope, I grabbed it from the repositories :)
<Mithrandir> pitti: http://flomertens.free.fr/disk-manager/features.html , but you probably already have the URL.
<tepsipakki> jdong: http://users.tkk.fi/~tjaalton/dpkg, grab the latest vesa and server
<sponix> jdong:  sadly enough, I'm in Iraq on a _very_ restricted net most of the time, I have issues pulling anything :P
<Mithrandir> pitti: might be nice to investigate and see how it fits in with the rest of our stack.
<tepsipakki> how do I get a people.u.c account?
<jdong> tepsipakki: will do... tomorrow... bed time
<sponix> jdong:  speaking of, is there anyway I could get you to tarball ndiswrapper and all its deps (ndisgtk as well) for me ?
<sponix> jdong:  I really want to get Feisty up to speed, but without ndiswrapper I'm shot, only open net I have is wireless
<fabbione> tepsipakki: i don't think it's possible at the moment but you can try asking to our sysadmins
<tepsipakki> fabbione: something b0rked?
<Mithrandir> tepsipakki: currently, you don't, it's canonical employees only.  I'm not sure if we're looking at changing that, but maybe we should.
<fabbione> tepsipakki: what Mithrandir said
<tepsipakki> oh, I thought it was for core-devs
<ajmitch> I think it's come up at TB meetings in the past
<pitti> Mithrandir: thanks; I'll take a look at it a bit later
<tepsipakki> nevermind then :)
<sponix> jdong:  could I msg && bother you for a bit ?
<Mithrandir> ajmitch: do you know if it has been resolved one way or the other?
<ajmitch> Mithrandir: I don't think it was 
<Fujitsu> My recollection is that it was left unresolved.
<ajmitch> it was, I just found the logs from that meeting
<Fujitsu> ajmitch: Which meeting was it?
<ajmitch> october 10
<ajmitch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Technical-2006-10-10
<sladen> tepsipakki: the best you can do at the moment is scp stuff to bazaar.launchpad.net
<Mithrandir> it seems like the consensus from that discussion was "we should provide an upload area, mdz will follow up with sysadmins"
<Fujitsu> I haven't seen anything further on that topic.
<Mithrandir> see the lines from 16:32:09 to 16:34:30
<Fujitsu> Mithrandir: Yeah... Do you know if anything happened with regard to that?
<Mithrandir> I haven't seen anything, no.  Somebody could ask mdz when he shows up if there has been any conclusion on it.
<pitti> grep: /usr/lib/libcairo.la: No such file or directory
<pitti> erk, seeeb
<Mithrandir> no, it's a bug in something shipping a .la file but failing to depend on libcairo
<Mithrandir> +-dev
<pitti> right, I'm just not sure where to start looking; so I'll just check all the 230423 build deps of gnome-mount
<Mithrandir> I think we should try to get rid of all .la files this cycle.
* pitti tries grep libcairo.la /usr/lib/*.la
<pitti> hey seb218
<pitti> hey seb128, too
<seb128> hey pitti ;)
<pitti> for i in range(129): print "hello seb" + i
<pitti> str(), but anyway
<ion_> 0.upto 128 do |i| puts "hello seb#{i}" end
<ion_> puts "hello pitti, too"
<pitti> hi ion_ 
<fabbione> MA VIENIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<fabbione> eh whops
<fabbione> wrong chan
<fabbione> sorry
<vciaglia> fabbione: loool. I can understand! :)
<mario_> hi folks
<ion_> Hi mario
<saispo> hi :)
<seb128> lu saispo
<\sh> I have bootup problem with udev and ldap (on dapper).
<stub> Launchpad is going down in 15 mins for a code update. Estimated downtime is 10 mins or less.
<\sh> udevd is starting, and trying to lookup users, our user base is ldap and compat (reading nsswitch.conf), now, network is not configured and udevd tries round about 5 mins to lookup the user...how can I disable nsswitch user lookup via ldap for udev only?
<ajmitch> use 'compat ldap' instead of 'ldap compat'?
<\sh> ajmitch, already using
<ajmitch> or a libnss-ldap that has sane timeouts
* ajmitch didn't think the dapper libnss-ldap had those problems
<pitti> mvo: FYI, I'm grabbing your ucf merge since I need it for dovecot; unless you are already at it?
<\sh> bug 51315
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 51315 in libnss-ldap "udevd: nss_ldap: failed to bind to LDAP server" [Undecided,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/51315
<ajmitch> which was pretty much just for edgy
<cjwatson> ensure that any users needed by udev are in /etc/passwd?
<\sh> cjwatson, well, which user is not in /etc/passwd for udev?
<cjwatson> or groups in /etc/group
<mvo> pitti: feel free, I have not started with them yet, just make sure the debconf stuff that I added is still there afterwards :)
<cjwatson> \sh: I don't know; you're the one with the failing system
<\sh> cjwatson, for udev all users should be in /etc/passwd
<pitti> mvo: did you send that to Debian? the latest version doesn't have it
<ajmitch> \sh: iirc nvram was one
<\sh> ajmitch, yeah, just trying to fix it with this grou
<\sh> but at least it's a bug then ;)
<pitti> mvo: argh, this is a hell of a diff
<mvo> pitti: can you give me the url? I have a look, my initial patch was quite small IIRC
<pitti> mvo: no URL, I just apt-get source'd our, Debian's, and the debian-snapshot base version and debdiffed
<pitti> mvo: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/tmp/ucf-ubuntu.diff
<pitti> mvo: it doesn't look very ubuntu specific AFAICS
<\sh> ajmitch, it was nvram group missing in /etc/group
<\sh> this group has to be added to the default
<mvo> pitti: no, I send it to debian but got no feedback
<mvo> pitti: its pretty important for upgrades with anything that uses a GUI 
<mvo> (synaptic, adept, u-m, ...)
<pitti> mvo: hm, too bad; same is true for Debian, interactive stuff on the console is evil
<\sh> cjwatson, what is the best package to file a bug report about a missing group for udev? ,-) 
<mvo> pitti: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=325576
<ubotu> Debian bug 325576 in ucf "ucf: should use debconf to display the diff results" [Normal,Open]  
<pitti> mvo: ah, thanks
<ivoks> \sh: why does it read passwd in the first place?
<ivoks> \sh: wouldn't it be better to do getent passwd?
<ajmitch> ivoks: no..
<mvo> pitti: let me know if you want me to do the merge
<pitti> mvo: oh, I'm almost done, it's fine
<pitti> I just wondered about the rationale
<mvo> aha, ok
<mvo> thanks :)
<ivoks> ajmitch: i might ask stupid question; but.. why? :)
<ajmitch> ivoks: this is an nss module (libnss-ldap) that is timing out - udev is doing things the normal way
<ivoks> oh... ok
<ajmitch> lots of fun
<ajmitch> morning sabdfl 
<cjwatson> \sh: pretty sure there's already a bug about that
<ajmitch> pretty sure it's been fixed in feisty too, nvram is in /etc/group here
<ivoks> it worked in dapper, iirc
<ivoks> (working :)
<\sh> ivoks, nope...I have a couple of dappers here...they all have this problem when network is not started, so ldap can't be reached
<ajmitch> \sh: what libnss-ldap version?
<\sh> wait...I have to reconnect to the box :(
<ivoks> \sh: eh, i didn't have that test-case cause if network wasn't available, it wouldn't boot at all :)
<\sh> 238-1.1ubuntu1
<\sh> ivoks, first comes udev, then the network...
<\sh> but nsswicth is already there
<ivoks> \sh: in my case it was network first, then kernel
<iwj> fabbione: Letting agents just turned up.  Be with you in a bit.
<iwj> Gone again.
<iwj> fabbione: AYT?
<fabbione> iwj: sorry i was having lunch. i need to run away for another 10/15 minutes.. is it ok with you?
* fabbione will be back very soon
<iwj> Sure.
<fabbione> re
<jmg> hey all
<jmg> bring me the head of the alsa maintainer
<Treenaks> why?
<ajmitch> because jmg wants to fix all the bugs, it seems
<jmg> i want to file some bugs
<jmg> but i need more info
<jmg> about the way alsa is configured in ubuntu
<jmg> specifically i want to help it configure 5.1
<jmg> because right now its not.
<ajmitch> saying "bring me the head of the alsa maintainer" really isn't the best way to get any help
<jmg> it got some attention
<cjwatson> not from the alsa maintainer
<jmg> i see him
<jmg> by him, i mean the last person to touch it in edgy
<jmg> hmm
<jmg> i suppose i had better upgrade to feisty... but i dont want to break my nice media center setup
<jmg> because my bug may be fixed in feisty
<jmg> so what im really asking is how to configure 5.1 in edgy, but that is not an appropriate question for -devel
<zul> good call
<jmg> but maybe crimsun could give me an idea of how it is configured at the moment, because im looking and it doesnt like any of the stuff under /usr/share/alsa/pcm gets used
<jmg> /etc/init.d/alsa-utils is braindead in that respect
<ajmitch> hm, still getting bitten by debian bug 420895 on upgrading tzdata, was someone looking at that?
<ubotu> Debian bug 420895 in tzdata "tzdata: debconf logic can't handle single-level zones defined in backward" [Important,Closed]  http://bugs.debian.org/420895
<cjwatson> ajmitch: we haven't merged the Debian fix yet
<cjwatson> ajmitch: feel like taking care of that? :)
<ajmitch> sure
<cjwatson> it's -5 I think
<heno> mdz, cjwatson: how do I go about hijacking a spec. I'd rather do that than create yet more duplicates
<heno> (I take it the distro drivers have the power)
<heno> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/speech-recognition and https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/installer-for-windows 
<cjwatson> heno: just start editing, normally
<cjwatson> heno: I can assign you as drafter or something if you like
<cjwatson> done for both
<heno> cjwatson: thanks, I now have many more options
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: are you running the autosyncer, or are the things in ~lp_archive/syncs/ manual?
<cjwatson> looks like they're auto
<heno> cjwatson: installer-for-windows is already on Scott's schedule; I've added an agenda. I take it I should not propose it for the meeting via LP, but that you will link it manually (?)
<cjwatson> heno: yep
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I started it on auto, but it needs a bit of waiting before I can run it so I don't end up syncing the bits already synced in the previous run.
<vciaglia> re
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: right
<cjwatson> I just used a different directory and some hacked scripts for the syncs I wanted to do
<Mithrandir> okie
* ogra twiddles thumbs while watching the gutsy dist-upgrade
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: seems happier now, so rerunning -a
<pitti> Mithrandir: can you please give-back gnome-volume-manager on sparc and powerpc?
<Mithrandir> pitti: given-back
<ogra> bah, no libnotify yet ... g-s-s doesnt build  ...
<fabbione> ogra: and no hal-info! OMG THE WORLD IS FALLING APART
<fabbione> i can't distupgrade to gutsy!
<ogra> NO HAL INFO !!! Ohh my god !
* pitti pats his local .deb
<fabbione> ogra: if i were you i would start to worry about that after UDS
<ogra> how are we supposed to ever access hardware again ? 
<fabbione> i guess Mithrandir and cjwatson are keeping the world busy with debian sync
<pitti> ogra: oh, my fault, should be in NEW
<ogra> i just upgraded fine over here ...
<fabbione> weekend time
* fabbione takes off
<pitti> ogra: NEWed
<\sh> hmmm...MoM still adds feisty to debian/changelogs in ubuntu version, right? 
<pitti> \sh: oh, is it back?
<ogra> looks like
<pitti> nope, still with March data
<ogra> at least the webpage
<ogra> ah
<\sh> argl
<StevenK> pitti: I have 3 -security uploads for universe that I'm in the middle of preparing. Shall I hit you up a little later about them?
<pitti> StevenK: yes, please do so
<StevenK> pitti: The package is mydns if you're curious.
<cjwatson> fabbione: hey, I'm just trying to clear out my own syncs :P
<fabbione> cjwatson: ehehhe yeah yeah :)
<cjwatson> rest of you can fend for yourselves
<fabbione> cjwatson: have fun.. i can wait for my syncs after the archive is stabilized a bit :)
<fabbione> i had enough to sync into redhat-cluster for today
* fabbione -> weekend
<Mithrandir> hm, not all bad stats:
<Mithrandir> Out-of-date BUT modified: 706 (5.53%)
<Mithrandir> Updated:                  347 (2.72%)
<Mithrandir> Ubuntu Specific:          2189 (17.14%)
<Mithrandir> Up-to-date [Modified] :    1287 (10.08%)
<Mithrandir> Up-to-date:               8233 (64.46%)
<Mithrandir> Blacklisted:               11 (0.09%)
<Mithrandir> Broken:                     0 (0.00%)
<Mithrandir> the ubuntu specific one looks pretty bad since we haven't synced removals yet.
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Ah, but how many removals are there?
<Mithrandir> unsure.
<Mithrandir> as in, I haven't gotten that far yet.
* StevenK nods.
* Hobbsee is sure geser will get thru all the universe ones in a couple of days...
<StevenK> Yeah, well.
<ajmitch> we should try & get on top of them asap
<bhale> Ubuntu Specific:          2189 < ouch
<ajmitch> how many language packs in there?
<bhale> ah
<bhale> 693 in dapper
<ajmitch> and as he said, a bunch of removals to process
<ajmitch> but we do still have a few new packages
<ajmitch> quite a few are worth pushing to debian
<Mithrandir> closer to a thousand langpacks + support in gutsy.
* Mithrandir tickles Hobbsee_ and then runs away before she manages to stomp his feet.
* Hobbsee_ runs after Mithrandir, catches him, then stomps on his feet regardless
* Hobbsee_ will give you the icecube treatment next... :P
<Mithrandir> heh
<Mithrandir> it's getting summer-y here, so. :-)
<Hobbsee_> Mithrandir: ah yes, but not here...
<Hobbsee_> i'll enjoy the summer
<Hobbsee> or the excuse of summer
<ogra> Hobbsee, in germany we have about 5-10C more than usual ... nature is freaking out ...
<ogra> its linke june here
<StevenK> ogra: Send it here!
<Hobbsee> ogra: heh.  nice.  what does that turn out to be?
<Hobbsee> yay, we want warmth!
<ogra> 23C atm
<StevenK> That isn't warm
<ogra> should be between 10-15C around this time of year
<StevenK> ogra: It's warmer than that here now, and it's 11pm!
<ogra> and wasnt ever this warm in april
<Spads> ogra: http://www.nctexasbirds.com/images/hot_news.jpg
<StevenK> Oh geez, I remember that article.
<StevenK> pitti: I have three debdiffs for you to look at, along with a bug number.
<pitti> StevenK: ah, as attachments? what's the bug?
<ogra> go USA !
<StevenK> pitti: No, they aren't attached yet.
<StevenK> pitti: bug 110306
<ubotu> Bug 110306 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/110306 is private
<StevenK> pitti: All three debdiffs attached.
<pitti> StevenK: thanks, will look at it soon
<pitti> StevenK: hmm, there doesn't seem to be a public CVE for this
<StevenK> pitti: The bug does say it will be announced to full disclosure later today. 
<StevenK> pitti: Shall we wait until it has a CVE?
<pitti> StevenK: if it turns up in a matter of hours, we can consider waiting
<pitti> StevenK: in any case, the code changes look sane, but I'd like the changelog to be more verbose
<pitti> StevenK: mention the dpatch name and some references
<pitti> StevenK: i. e. URLs to the advisory and where you got the patch from, etc.
<pitti> (such as a webcvs URL, or the URL you mentioned in the bug)
<StevenK> Right.
<StevenK> Are my version numbers sane?
<pitti> yes, they are
* cjwatson takes the wireless-tools merge (since it's a netcfg prerequisite)
<pitti> StevenK: not sure if it is http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2006-2075
<pitti> StevenK: but it doesn't look like it
<StevenK> pitti: I agree, since the bug report mentions update and that CVE doesn't.
<bddebian> Heya
<StevenK> pitti: I don't seem to have/find a URL to the advisory.
<pitti> StevenK: ok; then just include the dpatch name and the URLs from the bug (PoC and patch)
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: so does the MoM output you pasted above indicate that MoM is on its way back up now?
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: it's actually sync-source output
<cjwatson> ah, right
<StevenK> pitti: Right, debdiffs updated, but not attached.
<pitti> StevenK: just /msg me the new changelog
<pitti> hm, do we still care about
<pitti> +  * Merge from debian unstable, remaining changes:
<pitti> +    - debian/control: exim4 -> postfix.
<pitti> being the only diff for a package? (such as mutt and mailman)
<Mithrandir> I'd say no.
<pitti> that's what I thought, too
<StevenK> pitti: All three uploads done.
<pitti> StevenK: thanks; I'll check them in about an hour, when they should have built everywhere
<StevenK> pitti: Okay, cool.
<Adri2000> archive admins: for a sync request from debian-multimedia, do you need the link to the .dsc or something?
<cjwatson> Adri2000: no, just note that it's to come from debian-multimedia
<pitti> Adri2000: we import the package lists by default, so I don't think that's necessary
<Adri2000> ok
* lamont considers launching trout at Mithrandir, decides not to
<Mithrandir> lamont: what for?
<lamont> exim->postfix comment above.
<lamont> :)
<Keybuk> exim > postfix
<Mithrandir> lamont: seriously?  Do you think maintaining a delta with Debian because we used to prefer/still prefer one MTA over another, when both are in main?
<Mithrandir> + is sane
* pitti prefers postfix over exim as well, but people who care about an MTA will have it installed already?
<lamont> pitti: that's why I cancelled the trout-launch
<Keybuk> pitti: can I get an MIR for my favourite MTA too? :p
<lamont> Mithrandir: no - not worth maintaining the difference
<lamont> Keybuk: I dare you to submit one for qmail
<pitti> Keybuk: if it replaces exim instead of giving us a third one to care for? :)
<pitti> qmail -> nonfree -> main
<Treenaks> pitti: yeah, but RIR was already in use
<Keybuk> pitti: it's only non-free by Debian's definition :)
<mjg59_> Keybuk: qmail? Non-free by most people's definition.
<Keybuk> it's just quirky that you can't distribute binaries of it <g>
<jdong> wha'ts up with people telling me that it's legal to distribute libdvdcss sources, just not binaries??
<jdong> IANAL but I am highly skeptical to that statement. probably an 'urban legend'?
<Keybuk> probably depends what country you are in, for a start
<jdong> let's say... USA?
<Keybuk> ask your local lawyer
<elmo> distributing dvdcss in any form in the US would not be sane [IANAL, TINLA] 
<jdong> elmo: that's what I was under the impression
<jdong> what about distributing a script that downloads libdvdcss sources from upstream and compiles them?
<jdong> i.e. Gentoo, Freebsd....
<Keybuk> ask your local lawyer
<mc44> jdong: and ubuntu no?
<jdong> /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh
<mc44> indeed
<jdong> we are distributing such a script
<vciaglia> re
<Keybuk> the answer to this requires knowledge of US law, not just the copyright licences involved
<jdong> that downloads a libdvdcss deb, or falls back to building from source
<jdong> is that legal? ;-)
<Keybuk> ask your local lawyer
<mc44> jdong: the us mirror is in sweden anyway isnt it? :)
<jdong> is it legal for Ubuntu, I should say...
<ion_> With this <http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/27/039259> (all our base are basically belong to MPAA and RIAA now) going on, perhaps even distributing /usr/share/doc/libdvdread3/install-css.sh in EU has became illegal.
<jdong> why not have g-a-i able to do this too?
<jdong> pop in an encrypted DVD, bring up g-a-i and offer to run that script... that's already installed :D
<Keybuk> ion_: the impliciations of that directive are not well understood
<ion_> Installing debs without adding a repository that will provide updates pretty isnt very nice.
<ion_> s/pretty //
<Keybuk> (and is actually less strict than the current UK law which is probably what Canonical is answerable to)
<cjwatson> EU directives (AIUI) don't affect us until signed into UK law anyway ...
<cjwatson> which isn't a reason not to be concerned, but is a reason not to panic
<jdong> interesting...
<jdong> I guess what I'm getting at is... we should either (1) remove the script due to legal reasons, or (2) make it more integrated into g-a-i and easier to access
<pitti> cjwatson: hm, why do you think is this UK centric? First, the download code will appear on worldwide mirrors, second such laws probably apply to the user, not (only) the distributor?
<jdong> yikes!
<jdong> libdvdread3 is in universe
<jdong> not multiverse
<cjwatson> the obvious target for legal action would be the distributor, surely
<jdong> and it installs a script that can deCSS??
<mjg59_> libdvdread is fine, surely?
<jdong> dvdread is fine
<jdong> but it includes a script that downloads libdvdcss
<cjwatson> there is unlikely to be any legal difference between universe and multiverse
<mjg59_> The "We're fine if we're only distributing something in multiverse" idea seems to have taken hold somewhere, and I'm not sure why
<Hobbsee> jdong: libdvdread source is in main, iirc.  certainly was.
<Robot101> mjg59: it's OK if we break the law if we put it in a seperate law-breaking section? :D
<jdong> Hobbsee: only in dapper (tm)
<Keybuk> pitti: the law ion_ refers explicitly excludes end-users
<Robot101> is multiverse not carried on mirrors or something?
<jdong> Robot101: worked for military prisons...
<Keybuk> pitti: and only targets distributors
<ion_> deb http://fi.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu feisty main restricted universe multiverse illegal
<Hobbsee> ah, right.  that's where i mu;st have merged it, then
* Hobbsee thought it was edgy, though...
<bhale> Robot101: multiverse is more like non-free
<StevenK> libdvdread | 0.9.6-3ubuntu1 | edgy/universe | source
<jdong> libdvdread3 | 0.9.6-3ubuntu1 | edgy/universe | i386
<Hobbsee> weird
<Keybuk> mjg59: Debian previously seemed to have a "it's fine if it's in non-free" stance too
* StevenK high fives jdong
<bhale> Robot101: its been taken to mean "anything goes"
<jdong> :)
<cjwatson> I don't see why we should do the MPAA's work for them. If it were clearly illegal, we shouldn't be distributing it, but it's not clear IMO
<mjg59> Keybuk: Debian's never carried libdvdcss
<Keybuk> mjg59: true, but it has for other things
<Keybuk> dvdcss should be in universe though
<elmo> bhale: which is wrong, of course
<Hobbsee> mjg59: it carried that script before, though
<jdong> cjwatson: libdvdcss is not clear?
<elmo> Keybuk: err, no it shouldn't
<Hobbsee> mjg59: to get dvdcss
<cjwatson> jdong: a script that downloads libdvdcss is not clear
<Keybuk> multiverse is "insufficient permission to distribute modified binaries", not "legally scary"
<Keybuk> elmo: ?
<cjwatson> libdvdcss itself would be, imo
<jdong> cjwatson: I agree with that
<mjg59> Keybuk: Really? Which things were considered acceptable in non-free that weren't considered acceptable in main? (ignoring freeness)
<elmo> Keybuk: dvdcss should not be on our archive at all
<cjwatson> elmo: it isn't. a script that downloads it is
<elmo> cjwatson: I know that
<cjwatson> ok
<elmo> I'm responding to:
<elmo> 16:17 < Keybuk> dvdcss should be in universe though
<jdong> site=http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/groups/dvd/deb/
<Keybuk> mjg59: I can't recall specifically, but I remember when we had the discussion about not using multiverse as a legal arse-cover, that someone pointed to things in Debian non-free simply because of patents; gif stuff, maybe?  zip maybe too
<pochu> configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
<cjwatson> Keybuk: sounds like somebody confused non-free with non-US
<mjg59> Keybuk: Stuff was in non-us because of patents. 
<Keybuk> cjwatson: yes, that was the thought too
<Keybuk> if I weren't leaving for a plane in 40 mins, i'd look into it :)
<ion_> install-css.sh seems to install 1.2.5, whereas the medibuntu repository seems to have 1.2.9, btw.
<mjg59> Keybuk: The only exceptions I could think of would be code that granted a patent license, but only under restrictive terms
<jdong> ion_: lol should we update it to install from medibuntu? :D
<mjg59> And where that patent was being enforced
<Keybuk> mjg59: it was a mistake in Debian, iirc, and one someone had copied in Ubuntu
<ion_> jdong: As long as an apt repository isnt used, it will become obsolete again sooner or later. :-)
<jdong> ion_: a wget that checks a "latest-is-*" file? :D
<ion_> Users wont get updates automatically that way.
<Lutin> ion_: in what package is that file ?
<jdong> libdvdread
<ion_> lutin: libdvdread3
<jdong> no fear, medibuntu to the rescue :D
<elmo> Keybuk: err, it wasn't a mistake, if you mean unintentional rather than misguided
<Lutin> jdong: :)
<Lutin> ion_: ok
<Keybuk> elmo: ?
<ion_> The medibuntu repository also contains w32codecs and a version of ffmpeg that supports encoding some patent-encumbered formats, which is nice.
<jdong> yep
* jdong hugs Lutin for the ffmpeg :)
<jdong> though w32codecs is pretty obsolete now
<jdong> you only need it for realvideo... and we have Real in -commercial
* Lutin hugs jdong back
<cjwatson> jdong: how's the rest of it handled?
<elmo> jdong: err, what can do wmv?
<mjg59> ffmpeg
<jdong> elmo: ffmpeg
<cjwatson> (we have a discussion on windows codecs scheduled for UDS)
<elmo> natively?
<jdong> yep
<jdong> cjwatson: ffmpeg now decodes almost everything
<jdong> the remaining biggie is realvideo+realaudio
<ion_> jdong: Do mplayer, gstreamer0.10-pitfdll etc. use the codecs installed by the Real package from commercial?
* cjwatson goes to note that on the schedule
<elmo> mplayer does realaudio
<jdong> ion_: nope
<elmo> even streaming, like  bbc radio or something
<jdong> ion_: our mplayer and friends can't exploit realplayer... unlike Novell's
<ion_> jdong: Thus ill still have to keep using w32codecs.
<mc44> jdong: there isnt a feisty realplayer package yet either
<jdong> mc44: well there should be
<jdong> :)
<mvo> mc44: we hope to get one soon
<cjwatson> Keybuk: any objections to me swapping round the motu and gstreamer forums on the schedule? LaserJock said he was leaving on Wed so couldn't make the MOTU forum
<mc44> mvo: great :)
<Lutin> jdong: does the ffmpeg from debian unstalbe handles more formats than the current ubuntu one ?
<cjwatson> I couldn't see any obvious obstacles to switching them
<jdong> Lutin: definitely, and lower CPU usage too
<jdong> BUT the api, abi, and UI has changed significantly!
<jdong> be careful introducing that, coordinate with motu-media, etc
<jdong> but I would like to see it in Gutsy
<Keybuk> cjwatson: no objections to any changes
<Keybuk> cjwatson: riddell also pointed out to me that the meduxa guys aren't present on the day they've been scheduled for
<Keybuk> cjwatson: so move that to mon-tues in a fourth room :)
<cjwatson> Riddell: what are the meduxa guys called, and what days will they be present?
<cjwatson> all the schedule says is "Meduxa Representative"
<Lutin> jdong: I'd definitely love it too, cause I need it to put another package into multiverse (kdenlive)
<Lutin> jdong: though it FTBFSs in a feisty pbuilder cause of some linking issue
<jdong> Lutin: it might be time to talk to slomo and friends about how to migrate our entire stack to it
<jdong> Lutin: it's at minimum going to be a full recompile of all dependents
<Riddell> cjwatson: Cristo is the junior guy, he's there all week
<Riddell> cjwatson: Agustn is the senior guy, leaves 17:00 on tuesday
<Lutin> jdong: indeed. definitely need to poke siretart too, as he maintains it in debian
<cjwatson> Riddell: thanks
<jdong> yep
<elmo> zomg, can we please install patch by default on servers?
<Lutin> jdong: I have a feeling taht it's not gonna be easy :p
<cjwatson> Riddell: I'll put them on Sunday and Monday then - can manage to avoid using a fourth room that way
<cjwatson> I guess those two sessions don't have to be right next to each other
<jdong> Lutin: I doubt it too
<mdz> elmo: in a bundle with gcc and friends, or always?
<Riddell> cjwatson: thanks, no they don't
<elmo> mdz: always
<Lutin> jdong: though some upstream might have started the migration already
<elmo> I patch config files all the time, but maybe I'm just strange that way
<jdong> Lutin: I think all our apps will build against the new ffmpeg
<jdong> Lutin: I have done it locally on one of my machines
<jdong> Lutin: it is however damned annoying that all my scripts that call ffmpeg had to be changed significantly
<cjwatson> I don't really see why not to install patch always - I've pretty sure I've seen people suggest using it to apply test fixes for bugs
<thom> elmo: you're strange. but we knew that anyway (i just use $RCS_OF_CHOICE); that said, i can't see why having patch in base would be bad
<cjwatson> (when binaries aren't involved)
<Lutin> jdong: that'd mean that they've not broken their API ? kind of amazing
<jdong> Lutin: no, they did break their api
<jdong> Lutin: most ffmpeg apps have a bunch of #ifdefs to workaround it :D
<Lutin> jdong: :D
<cjwatson> patch is in the user portability section of SUSv3 too (read: optional, but you know that's "if you are a hideously ancient Unix then we'll let you off")
<iwj> Why oh why oh why does less perform so abysmally with files with huge lines ?
<ScottK> pitti: It seems there is still one hangup with the lighttpd security fix.  IA-64 for Edgy has been sitting "Needs Building" for a long time now.  https://launchpad.net/+builds/+build/319865
<ScottK> Dunno if there's a backlog for IA64 or something got hung up again...
<cjwatson> ia64 was broken for edgy-security for a while, and may still be
<cjwatson> elmo: ^--
<pitti> ScottK: right, edgy-security is pretty much screwed on ia64 because it's horribly out of date
<elmo> yeah, it is
<cjwatson> it shouldn't be needs-build though, either dep-wait or failed or ...
<elmo> I'll have to take dak down again to reimport it
<elmo> I'll do it some day... 
<ion_> iwj: -R might help in some cases.
<ScottK> So I guess I take that as it's know to be FUBAR and I don't need to worry about it?
<cjwatson> I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over it
<ion_> iwj: Sorry, brainfart. -S.
<ScottK> OK.  Thanks.
<iwj> I know about -S but I want to see the whole line.
<iwj> fold(1) fixes it but it's annoying that I have to mess about.
<ion_> iwj: Yeah. in some cases, as in if you dont need to see the whole line. :-)
<iwj> ion_: Yers :-).
<ssam> Bug #109204 has a patch upstream, i have tested it my self. is there anything i can do help get the patch committed to the ubuntu package
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 109204 in goffice "Gnumeric strange colors (purple charts)" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109204
<ssam> i have read through the openweek patching session
<ssam> it looks to me like gnumeric does not use any of the fancy patching systems
<pitti> ssam: giving a pointer to the upstream patch and the test result is helpful
<ssam> pitti thanks
<ssam> pitti done
<bluefoxicy> wtf lol
* bluefoxicy sudo not working at the console XD
<bluefoxicy> I enter my password and it says "Sorry please try again" three times, never prompting inbetween.  gksu works.  This is amusing.
<iwj> Oh, the uselessness of the interface to su and rsh has caused so much braindamage.
<bongo> good day! what is the reason kernel-patch-vserver wasn't included in feisty release?
<crimsun> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=390951 , http://packages.qa.debian.org/k/kernel-patch-vserver/news/20061017T174909Z.html
<ubotu> Debian bug 390951 in ftp.debian.org "ftp.debian.org: Please remove package: kernel-patch-vserver" [Normal,Closed]  
<bongo> yes I do release debian etch doesn't have it
<bongo> that is why i presumed feisty doesn't
<crimsun> I'm not sure why you're asking, then?
<bongo> well I never read that article
<bongo> I see that stipulate that its included in the 2.6 kernel
<pitti> mjg59: do you have any idea about http://librarian.launchpad.net/7429278/buildlog_ubuntu-gutsy-powerpc.hal_0.5.9-1ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz ?
<bongo> if I download the source tarball I don't see it in the kernel source, not even with the ubuntu patches
<pitti> mjg59: on sparc and powerpc there is no sys/io.h with inb(), outb() and such
<bongo> I know i can patch it by hand
<mjg59> pitti: Yeah, the code is x86 only
<pitti> mjg59: so I should #ifdef the --enable-macbook options only for i386 in debian/rules
<mjg59> pitti: and amd64
<mjg59> There are no ppc macbooks
<iwj> Aaaaargh!  One moment it quotes ~ with \ and another moment it fails to quote * !
<jumpula> sounds like bash
<jumpula> except for something doing the quoting :)
* jumpula falls back to silence
<iwj> piuparts.
<iwj> 0m57.6s INFO: PASS: All tests.
<iwj> Yay!
<YokoZar> Somehow I'm missing a debdiff for my package, and it's confusing uupdate.  What's the proper way to build it?
* Adri2000 wants Merge-o-Matic... :(
<YokoZar> Ahh, figured out the answer to my question.  Had to have dpkg-source -b target my package directory and then the upstream tarball (that was actually a bz2 file, not .gz, hence confusing dpkg-source)
<Adri2000> cjwatson: why does your upload devscripts (2.10.2ubuntu1) not appear on gutsy-changes? anyway, I sent a patch for requestsync to pitti, could you include it in your next upload? (when merging version 2.10.4 for example)
<psusi> I can't debootstrap gutsy.. I think it is because tzdata fails to install... is this a known problem?  can anyone else debootstrap gutsy?
<psusi> same goes with pbuilder create
<geser> Adri2000: I already prepared a merge for 2.10.4 and wait now for a UMS
<Adri2000> hm yes, I've just seen the bug
<Adri2000> geser: can I send you my patch so you add it to your upload?
<geser> sure
<Adri2000> or well, it's here: http://adrishost.homeip.net/~adri2000/ubuntu/requestsync.patch
<geser> Adri2000: looking at the patch [len(explanation)-1]  is the same as [-1] 
<Adri2000> geser: ah right, feel free to fix :)
<wasabi_> buh. mdadm and lvm still broken in various ways for me in feisty.
<siretart> Lutin: you told something about ffmpeg before?
<Lutin> siretart: yes. I was asking if it compiles fine in a feisty pbuilder for you
<Lutin> siretart: 'cause it FTBFSs when linking here
<siretart> Lutin: where exactly? and on which arch?
<siretart> Lutin: I'm very inclined to just upload ffmpeg from experimental to gutsy and fix what gets broken
<Lutin> siretart: amd64, an issue related to PIC code
<siretart> Lutin: hm, strange, I'm pretty sure I tested it on my amd64 machine myself, will look at it later
<Lutin> siretart: yeah, I discusssed that a bit with jdong...we'd need at least a recompile of all the rdepends
<Lutin> siretart: I'll paste the buildlog asap
<siretart> Lutin: this we have to do anyway.
<siretart> Lutin: thanks
<psusi> can anyone debootstrap gutsy or does it just fail for me?
<Nafallo> psusi: dunno. worked earlier today.
<psusi> odd... I haven't been able to since yesterday at least... it fails to configure a bunch of stuff starting with tzdata I think
<psusi> could it be because this machine is still running edgy?
<mario> hello folks :)
<Lutin> siretart: http://people.dunnewind.net/lutin/ffmpeg_buildlog.txt
<siretart> Lutin: imgconvert.o, eh?
<Lutin> siretart: ?
<siretart> Lutin: I fixed such an error already before, I'll try to reproduce in gutsy
<Lutin> siretart: ok
<Lutin> siretart: do you remember what the fix was ?
<siretart> Lutin: fixing the inline assembler to not use relocs
<Lutin> ah, ok
<ajmitch> morning
<siretart> hi ajmitch 
<mario> hi siretart 
<siretart> hi pygi!
<mario> what's up? How is it going? :)
<siretart> oh, I'm fighting with ffmpeg on gutsy
<mario> siretart, wee, that sounds better then what I'm doing :P
<Lutin> siretart: heh. have fun =)
<siretart> mario: I seriously doubt it
#ubuntu-devel 2007-04-28
<mario> siretart, I'm trying to get better, since I'm sick :P
<mario> wanna switch places? :)
<siretart> mario: oh, get well soon!
<mario> siretart, I'll try :)
<mario> hi jdong 
<jdong> hey mario
<mario> how are you doing?
<jdong> pretty good
<jdong> just slept through the whole afternoon :D
<mario> nice,glad to hear
<mario> heh
<jdong> the campus is all quiet
<jdong> apparently everyone with cultural significance is at some ying yang twins concert in the main auditorium....
<mario> :P
<Chipzz_> jdong: your earlier comment about w32codecs only being usefull for playing realmedia is incorrect
<mario> Chipzz_, why would you use such codecs anyway?
* mario hides
<Chipzz_> jdong: I have encountered files that mplayer could play without w32codecs; but the native decoders produced major artifacts in the output, whereas the codecs from w32codecs did not
<jdong> Chipzz_: if our ffmpeg wasn't crusty and a year old... it could help :)
<Chipzz_> jdong: I admit it is a while ago; but it's just simpler to use w32codecs than to test every single release of ffmpeg :)
<jdong> Chipzz_: yes, it may well be possible w32codecs can play some proprietary formats better
<jdong> but I our ffmpeg stack should be updated too
<jdong> one year is ancient history in ffmpeg's time scale
<qiyong> anyone paste me his /etc/sudoers? i want to see the default ubuntu file
<Chipzz_> uhu
<Chipzz_> but updating ffpmeg does not necessarily make w32codecs useless ;)
<Chipzz_> (apart from realmedia files, that is)
<jdong> no, but it makes ffmpeg more useful.
<Chipzz_> that was not what you asserted earlier ;)
<Chipzz_> 17:25 < jdong> though w32codecs is pretty obsolete now
<jdong> well... it is
<jdong> compared to at one time it being totally crucial to play back MOST media formats
<jdong> now it's at a point where it's only absolutely required for very few things
<jdong> such as some odd color schemed WMV9's
<Chipzz> jdong: does mplayer get built with its own copy of ffmpeg, or with the one from the packages?
<jdong> given how new the WMV9 decoder is in ffmpeg, it would work wonders if the effort was taken to update ffmpeg
<jdong> good question
<Chipzz> mplayer *ships* its own copy
<Chipzz> but that does not mean it gets built with it
* jdong grabs mplayer source
<Chipzz> I suspect it is built with its own copy though
<jdong> now that you mention it, as do I....
<jdong> at any rate, dinner time....
<Chipzz> uhu
<Nafallo> jdong: bzr
<Nafallo> :-)
<qiyong> i get garbage characters in gnome-terminal window.sometimes after vim.
<fiveLaptop> ok, #ubuntu is crazy, so i figured this was a decent place to make this statement
<mario> :P
<mario> how long did it took you to figure that one out?:)
<fiveLaptop> i've got a broadcom 4318 wifi chipset in my laptop...  when the lappy boots up, it connects to my AP just fine, and then 10 seconds later, the connection is lost because my device is no longer active
<fiveLaptop> the wifi light on my laptop goes off, and pressing it does nothing
<fiveLaptop> to use the wifi connection, i have to manually set the AP essid, and then dhclient the interface
<fiveLaptop> before it stops working... 
<fiveLaptop> otherwise i have to reboot
<fiveLaptop> is there a software way of bringing the device back up?  cause "ifconfig eth1 up" (or any other command for that matter after the iface shuts down) just says "Device not found"
<rpereira> Hi. Does someone knows how to active CRT on an laptop with 945gm?
<afflux> stgraber: cause you are mentioned in the changed-by field for the cryptsetup package: can you have a look at bug 82343
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 82343 in cryptsetup "init.d/cryptdisks doesnt create symlinks in /dev/disk/by-*" [Undecided,Unconfirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/82343
<rpereira> When I use i810switch: I'm getting this error:
<rpereira> <rpereira> PCI id of i810 is not recognized
<stgraber> afflux: I'll make a new debdiff + binary i386 package so they can see if it works correctly afterwards (and don't introduce any new issue), I can't test it myself, I'm not a user of cryptsetup
<afflux> stgraber: alright, thank you
<stgraber> afflux: Any idea of how to define your patch effect in the changelog ? "Creates partition UUID symlinks and swaps before mounting the partition" ?
<afflux> stgraber: "creates symlinks in /dev/disk/by-{label,uuid} after mapping for mounting via LABEL= or UUID="?
<stgraber> Looks better
<elkbuntu> is the UDS blueprint queue going to be worked through any time soon?
<afflux> huh, building a package on my vserver brings: "virtual memory exhausted: Cannot allocate memory"
<afflux> I know i have not too much memory left, top says about 60000k free
<afflux> err, problem solved.. ignore me please :)
<pirast> keescook, could you please accept the nominations in bug 110066? thanks
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 110066 in asterisk "Multiple security holes in Asterisk" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110066
<pirast> uh oh i'll wait for you coming back :)
<Hobbsee> dont suppose there'd be any archive admins around?
<seb128> Hobbsee: I'm around, why?
<Hobbsee> seb128: i've gotten:  
<Hobbsee> Rejected:
<Hobbsee> Exception while accepting: This sourcepackagerelease is already accepted in gutsy.
<Hobbsee> for vegastrike-data
<seb128> what did you upload?
<seb128> what version?
<Hobbsee> sorry, c&p'ing from emiali
<Hobbsee> 0.4.3-3ubuntu1
<Hobbsee> https://beta.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vegastrike-data/ doesnt show that version, only 2ubuntu1
* Hobbsee curses her cold fingers, which makes her a slow typer
<seb128>  vegastrike (0.4.3.debian-1ubuntu1) gutsy; urgency=low
<seb128> that's on gutsy-changes
<seb128> that one has been accepted
<seb128> it's newer than the one you uploaded
<Hobbsee> that's vegastrike, not vegastrike-data?
<seb128> oh, right
<Hobbsee> oh wait, we now have one on feisty changes for the correct package, correct version
<Hobbsee> wonder who uploaded that
<geser> Hobbsee: I got faster than you :)
<Hobbsee> geser: ah.  
<highvoltage> Hobbsee: it's quit cold here too :(
* Hobbsee checks the bug report
<Hobbsee> geser: you commented on it way after you uploaded, it looks like
<pirast> its quite hot here :P
<geser> Hobbsee: I usually only add the accepted mail
<Hobbsee> geser: you uploaded that 32 mins ago?
<geser> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2007 12:40:49 -0000
<geser> from the accepted mail
<Hobbsee> geser: if you're uploading at the asme time as other people, which is quite likely, with all the merges going, please put that youv'e uploaded it.  i dont care if you just say "i'm uploading this" or attach the changes mail, or attach teh accepted mail, or what...just be quick about it, so work doesnt get duplicated
<Hobbsee> yeah, so 20 mins ago, same time as gutsy-changes, or there abouts
<geser> sure will do the next time
<Hobbsee> thanks
<Hobbsee> we dont have the resources to afford to duplicate things.
<jml> Hobbsee: we seem to get lots of duplicate bugs for free though ;)
<Hobbsee> jml: hah.  if i could get it thru people's skull sthat they had to search first, or use something like debian's report-bug, that'd help
<Hobbsee> fabbione: ping?
<Hobbsee> fabbione: your bot doesnt appaer to be logging - and hasnt for the last few days
<Alinux> BenC, hello seems that my wireless card has the same: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.17/+bug/63989 bug related problem.... but I still don't understand howto fix it...maybe you know something in advance ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 63989 in linux-source-2.6.20 "Orinoco_pci affected by re-enabled prism2 drivers" [High,Confirmed]  
<cjwatson> oops. Sorry for flooding gutsy-changes just now ...
<thom> installer upload?
<cjwatson> no, sync pass - I thought I'd set NOMAILS=-M but it didn't do the right thing with the flush-syncs script
<thom> ah
<cjwatson> I've fixed the code so that won't happen again
<ra21vi> is there anyway to start a project in launchpad.. abnormal project
<pochu> ra21vi: sure, just register it and start with it!
<pochu> https://launchpad.net/projects/+new
<jdong> cjwatson: if a Universe SRU FTBFS'es because of the Maintainer spec, is it acceptable to change the maintainer?
<jdong> i.e. what should be done in such a scenario...
* ..[topic/#ubuntu-devel:sabdfl] : Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with gutsy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Gutsy open, go ape!
<cypherbios> mvo never plays here in the weekend?
#ubuntu-devel 2007-04-29
<Keybuk> most of the canoncial staff don't play much at weekends
<Keybuk> side-effect of having wives, kids, etc. :p
<Fujitsu> Any idea when MoM will be turned back on?
<jdong> In Soviet Russia.... eww never mind
* LaserJock wonders what Keybuk is doing here then ...
<Nafallo> Keybuk: what are YOU doing here ;-)
<Keybuk> Nafallo: sitting in Chicago airport
<Nafallo> Keybuk: ah. that's a good reason then :-)
<Mithrandir> hiya Scott
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: heyhey
<Mithrandir> how's, uh, the airport? :-P
<Keybuk> shiny
<Keybuk> lacks shiny technical goods, like all US airports
<Keybuk> but then I was looking at the BestBuy prices, and it's getting *expensive* here
<Mithrandir> it is?  Even with two dollars to the pound?
<Keybuk> yeah, the prices are *way* up
<Keybuk> was looking at Digital SLRs
<Keybuk> initial glance, it's actually more expensive than standard UK high street prices
<Mithrandir> ouch.
<Mithrandir> bhphotovideo.com in NY isn't too bad, in my experience.
<Keybuk> ok, so Canon EOS 30D is $1,600
<Keybuk> which is about 800
<Keybuk> it was 650 in the Dixons at Heathrow
<Mithrandir> 650 for a 30D isn't all bad, is it?
<Keybuk> no, but I was expecting the US to be cheaper still
<Keybuk> so was kinda disappointed
<Keybuk> same is for the Creative MP3 player I was looking at
<Mithrandir> mhm
<mjg59> Yeah, the US only seems to be cheaper for entire machines right now
<Keybuk> of course, first I need to find out which camera is the best to buy
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: what kind of camera are you looking for?  (And do you have any ties to a manufacturer from before)
<Keybuk> Digital SLR is about the only decision made so far
<Keybuk> considering taking a photography course in september, and taking it up as another hobby, so want something reasonable
<Mithrandir> once you move into the SLR range, they're all reasonable, really.
<Mithrandir> it's the optics which matter.
<Keybuk> my mother has the Eos Rebel I think it is
<Mithrandir> aka 300D in Europe?
<Keybuk> could be yeah
<Mithrandir> I think Rebel XT is 350D, and XTi is 400D, or something along those lines.
<Mithrandir> I prefer Nikon myself, but that's mainly a matter of preference and both Nikon and Canon are safe enough choices.
<Keybuk> I figure I'll just have to find a decent shop and play
<Keybuk> if it turns out that the UK is just as cheap, I can do it at home
<Mithrandir> yeah
<Mithrandir> I've got a Nikon D200, so if you want to play with that at UDS, you're welcome to.
<Mithrandir> it's a lovely camera, but the body + 18-200mm I use puts it at quite a steeper price than the 30D you have looked at so far.
<Keybuk> that'd be cool to look at
<Keybuk> haven't planned a budget yet, just picked on that camera to compare prices because they had it at heathrow :p
<Keybuk> I guess it makes sense that things here should be expensive
<Mithrandir> bhphotovideo wants $2150 for body + that lens, which, tbh, isn't all unreasonable.
<Keybuk> since they have to import everything
<Mithrandir> true dat.
<Mithrandir> it's all made in {Japan,China,Taiwan}, iirc
<Mithrandir> oh, or Malaysia
<Keybuk> $1600 for the body in UK
<Mithrandir> same as bhphoto, then
<Keybuk> yeah, looks like it
<Mithrandir> (well, give or take 10$ which gets you about half a pint of beer.)
<Keybuk> in Oslo, that doesn't even get you to the bar to *look* at some beer
<Mithrandir> you're exaggerating. :-P
<Mithrandir> it gets you about a pint in most of Oslo
<Keybuk> I'm so not ;p
<Keybuk> the cover at most places was about that or more
<Mithrandir> oh, probably, but I tend to go to pubs that don't have cover.
<Keybuk> :)
* Keybuk tries to work out *how* Chicago is in the same timezone as Texas
<elkbuntu> Keybuk, you're trying to make sense of the United States?
<Fujitsu> elkbuntu: It looks that way :(
<Mithrandir> hiya elkbuntu 
<Mithrandir> elkbuntu: he's quite ambitious, isn't he? :-P
<elkbuntu> hey Mithrandir
<elkbuntu> he is indeed
<elkbuntu> Mithrandir, we all know the man isn't sane anyway
<Mithrandir> elkbuntu: that's practically a requirement to be hired. :-D
<elkbuntu> ah, so *that* explains it
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> I might try that
<Keybuk> tell Jo that I'm rejecting a CV because the candidate is "too sane"
<elkbuntu> lol
<elkbuntu> well, if nothing else, i have that requirement going for me
* Keybuk didn't know you knew how to use figlet
* Mithrandir chuckles.
<elkbuntu> Keybuk, i know how to use figlet IN cowsay
<Fujitsu> elkbuntu: That can get messy at times.
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: exploding cow?
<elkbuntu> Fujitsu, what's not messy about insanity?
<Mithrandir> elkbuntu: what is?
<Fujitsu> Sometimes a rather segmented cow, but not quite exploded.
* Fujitsu tries to make it explode.
<Keybuk> insanity isn't messy
<Keybuk> provided you clean up the bodies
<sladen> cowsplode
<Fujitsu> sladen: Sounds like a good SoC project for next year. Very worthwhile.
* Keybuk can hear LH explode from here
<Fujitsu> LH?
<Keybuk> (actually, I should be careful with phrases like that...
<elkbuntu> our dear Leslie
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: probably, since you're not IRC-ing over ssh.
<Keybuk> last time I was in an airport lounge and talked about someone (Danese Cooper), she turned out to be on the same flight as me
<Mithrandir> heh
<Mithrandir> but she wasn't on the same IRC channel, so it was all good?
<Keybuk> true, but it was un-nerving
* Keybuk is slightly amused that half of the company seems to be on the same Iberia flight next week
<elkbuntu> oh my, that would be interesting
<Mithrandir> that's what we get for having the UDS in a hard-to-get-to place.
* Keybuk has the itinerary from hell
<Mithrandir> I'm just so amazed I've managed to avoid all the LH cancellations.
<Keybuk> SFO->some random airport->LHR->train->LGW->MAD->Sevilla
<Mithrandir> pitti managed to hit all of them.
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: oh, fun.
<Keybuk> I may go mad
<Mithrandir> SFO->LHR isn't a nonstop?
<Keybuk> just for fun
<Keybuk> Mithrandir: I don't think so, Eyas being cheap :)
<Mithrandir> you should do the routing yourself.  Less painful.
<Mithrandir> I should probably have run it past them this time, just to make them explode.
<Keybuk> this was all last minute
<sladen> man, I should get on a train, I only have a week left to get there
<Keybuk> since they lost my "and I'm now going to the US for a week before" e-mail
<Mithrandir> ugh
<Keybuk> it's the arrive at LHR and depart from LGW I like
<elkbuntu> eyas... ugh
<Mithrandir> Keybuk: when I looked at tickets, KLM tried to do that to me in Paris.
<Keybuk> oh, I *NEVER* change at CDG
<Keybuk> EVER
<Mithrandir> given my non-knowledge of French, hilarity might have ensued.
<Keybuk> I like my luggage
<Keybuk> and I like to see it again
<Mithrandir> this was CDG->the other Paris Airport.
<Mithrandir> now I route through Germany instead.
<Keybuk> to be fair to eyas, they're usually not bad
<Keybuk> for me, at least
<Keybuk> I usually just phone Dionne and talk through the options
<Keybuk> this time the problem was time constraints, with needing to leave San Francisco no earlier than X, but arrive in London before Y for my existing flight booking
<Mithrandir> yeah, I think that might help.
<Mithrandir> "Mark, can I borrow your plane"?
<Keybuk> we're using that for the airport hops this week
<Keybuk> we couldn't arrive on it, because of the visa issues, and Mark's going elsewhere for the weekend, so we couldn't leave on it either (plus the return ticket thing)
<sladen> so the plane is flying empty over to the US, to ferry people around
<sladen> ...(!)
<Keybuk> nah, Mark's coming on it to the US
<sladen> thought mark has/had "visa issues" after some previous occasion
<sladen> "yes, I am a criminal, mmmkay"
<Keybuk> nah, that was all solved
<Keybuk> md5sum: WARNING: 4 of 77825 listed files could not be read
<Keybuk> md5sum: WARNING: 3 of 77821 computed checksums did NOT match
<Keybuk> woo
<Keybuk> no EIO
<Keybuk> right, experiment time, let's see whether there's wifi on the plane
<Mithrandir> sounds fun.
<sladen> did boeing just close their wifi business
<sladen> Boeing Connexions
<Keybuk> just whether the airport cloud extends that far
<Keybuk> it's a very little plane
<Keybuk> Mark's is much bigger
<sladen> at Stansted
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> what do you know, the cloud extends far enough
<Nafallo> :-P
<Keybuk> cute guy sat behind me, not next to me, boo hiss, where's the fun in that?
* jdong is sure he walked in out of context....
<Keybuk> jdong: I'm sat on a plane at a gate at Chicago airport ;P
<jdong> Keybuk: and noting the position of attractive men for us :D
<crimsun> you could arrange to be reseated if there are children involved.
<Keybuk> jdong: just for me
<crimsun> [children separated from their parents, that is] 
<Keybuk> right, flight time
<ajmitch> afternoon
<bhale> hi
<LaserJock> hi bhale 
<bhale> hi LaserJock 
<bhale> how far are you from Vegas
<LaserJock> well, it's about 8hrs drive I think
<bhale> oh jeez
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> basically I'm in the north part of the state
<bhale> i wont be seeing you, then
<LaserJock> and Vegas is at the southern tip
<LaserJock> I hear it's cheap to fly to vegas from here though
<bhale> http://www.thecodingstudio.com/opensource/linux/screenshots/index.php?linux_distribution=Fedora%207%20Test%204
<bhale> fedora core 7 copies ubuntu livecd installer
<LaserJock> bhale: something about those screenshots makes me feel like it's a lot of hot air ;-)
<bhale> LaserJock: hah
<jdong> LaserJock: BOO :)
<bhale> based on these shots they seem to have gone back on their new icon theme
<bhale> which i found to be highly offensive in the "desktop consistancy" department
<bhale> bluecurve + gnome2 + tango + new fedora = oh my
<mjg59> Eh, we rip stuff off from Fedora all the time
<mjg59> I think they're allowed to reciprocate :)
<bhale> of course, they are the big kids
<mjg59> And without the kernel development they do, we'd be nowhere
<Burgundavia> their live cd does not contain OO.o
<ajmitch> we are one big happy family after all
<LaserJock> sure we are ...
<Windows2000XPVIS> hey
<Windows2000XPVIS> hey ppl
<Windows2000XPVIS> how do i add .net app to ubuntu
<jdong> this is not a support channel
<Windows2000XPVIS> duh i am developer
<jdong> it is a meeting room for developers to discuss the development of Ubuntu
<jdong> it is not to discuss developers of applications for Ubuntu
<Windows2000XPVIS> i develop state of the art windows apps on .net platform
<jdong> that's awesome for you
<Windows2000XPVIS> well there's no such thing as ubuntu developer
<Windows2000XPVIS> all you do is recompile what is already there
<Windows2000XPVIS> thus i am onlyreal developer in here
<jdong> !ops
<ubotu> Help! bhale, infinity, Hobbsee, jdub, thom, fooishbar, fabbione, mdz, lamont, or Keybuk
<Windows2000XPVIS> no place for criticsm
<Windows2000XPVIS> truth hurts?
<Windows2000XPVIS> leaching off redhat for yrs..
<poningru> \o/
<nalioth> Windows2000XPVIS: isn't enough enough?
<pkl_> Many of the Ubuntu developers also work on other open source projects.
<poningru> our first -devel troll in a while
<Windows2000XPVIS> you mean many try to copy stuff form other distros?
<poningru> not creative though
<nalioth> Windows2000XPVIS: please see PM
<poningru> Windows2000XPVIS: I'll give you a 5 for effort
<Windows2000XPVIS> prime minister?
<LaserJock> poningru: 5?
<poningru> hmm scratch that add another 3 to that for being a real human
<poningru> LaserJock: his troll point
<Windows2000XPVIS> 5 out of 5 or out of 10
<jdong> LaserJock: I only got 3 for effort ever... out of 100
<LaserJock> poningru: I know, I thought  5 was high
<poningru> LaserJock: I dont know he is human
<poningru> human trolls seem to be a scarcity these days
<Windows2000XPVIS> yeah yeah when you give them criticism all they can is to be rude
<nalioth> Windows2000XPVIS: please see the PM
<poningru> rude?
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+b %Windows2000XPVIS!*@*]  by nalioth
<LaserJock> ah, so soon
<poningru> we could have had some fun
* Fujitsu leeches from Red Hat.
<jdong> Fujitsu: in soviet russia, redhad leeches YOU
* Fujitsu watches his BP drop drastically.
<poningru> oh great its a chatzilla user...
<poningru> and a real IP...
<poningru> sigh
<jdong> in soviet russia, chatz..... oh I give up
* poningru rofls
<poningru> back in my days trolls would hide their IP and client some how
<poningru> trolls these days... no honor
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-b %Windows2000XPVIS!*@*]  by nalioth
<reitblatt> back in the day trolls used a little intellect
<reitblatt> now they don't even try
<Windows2000XPVIS> my ip no secret
<nalioth> reitblatt: nowadays they use little intellect
<Windows2000XPVIS> i am not thief
<Fujitsu> nalioth: True.
<Windows2000XPVIS> and i get new one by clicking reboot on modem
<Fujitsu> Ooh, scary.
<jdong> really? how do you do that?
<jdong> never heard of it
<nalioth> Windows2000XPVIS: have these folks asked you to leave?
<Windows2000XPVIS> no they like my presence
<Windows2000XPVIS> right?
<nalioth> right....
<jdong> of course; he is a state of the art .NET developer.
<Windows2000XPVIS> they want part of my experience
<Windows2000XPVIS> yeah.
<reitblatt> the experience of you leaving
<Windows2000XPVIS> i do some Java too
<jdong> lovely.
<Windows2000XPVIS> and C :D
<LaserJock> Windows2000XPVIS: you do a lot of Mono development?
<Windows2000XPVIS> yes as much as .Net development.
<nalioth> so do you guys want him gone or not?
<Fujitsu> nalioth: He's nice and offtopic and trollish. please dispose of him.
<jdong> nalioth: System.Console.Out.Close()
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o nalioth]  by ChanServ
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+b *!*@63-224-188-119.desm.qwest.net]  by nalioth
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o nalioth]  by nalioth
<reitblatt> thanks
<nalioth> don't feed the trolls, and they won't bite you.
<reitblatt> ehh, this one walked in fully fed
<nalioth> full of something, anyway
<jdong> In Soviet Russia, tr....... *smack*
* Fujitsu crushes jdong.
<jdong> Fujitsu: don't beg me towards a reiser joke :)
<Fujitsu> Oh dear.
<jmg> heh
<jmg> hey guys, what do you think about a spec for configuring surround sound, and a speaker config/test tool for gnome
<tonyyarusso> nalioth: He's in -meeting now.
<Fujitsu> Keybuk: How was the flight?
<elkbuntu> Fujitsu, must have been good
<Hobbsee> urgh.  why must trolls comes when i'm not at my keyboard?
<Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Because they're watching you.
<Hobbsee> urgh
<jdong> in soviet russia.....
<Hobbsee> in soviet russia, Hobbsee beats jdong into a pulp.
<Hobbsee> same as anywhere else in the world.
<Hobbsee> :P
<jdong> haha
<jdong> I love you too
<gpocentek> morning
<LordLimecat> im having a devil of a time installing feisty on XFS, anyone have a moment?
<Burgundavia> LordLimecat: #ubuntu for support
<Amaranth> LordLimecat: #ubuntu
<LordLimecat> i checked in there and was referred here
<LordLimecat> and ive been tryin to get help for like 2 hours
<jmg> not many people use xfs i guess
<jdong> LordLimecat: grr I'll make myself an exception, make an ext2 or ext3 /boot, and XFS will be fine
<LordLimecat> jdong: i did that
<LordLimecat> and had to manually set the partition active
<LordLimecat> and got an "operating system error" at boot, after POST and before grub
<jdong> interesting.
<LordLimecat> lemme run the install once more
<jmg> is there a reason you have to use xfs?
<LordLimecat> because i can, its faster and (for what i want) better, and its good to know how to do
<jdong> I use XFS as my root currently
<jmg> seems to me like you cant :)
<Burgundavia> LordLimecat: who referred you to here?
<jdong> though I installed completely manually
<LordLimecat> some random guy in ubuntu
<LordLimecat> not one of the main ppl
<Burgundavia> ugh
<reitblatt> xfs is less reliable, power loss tends to be very bad for it
<jmg> Burgundavia: if its an installer issue where should he go?
<LordLimecat> next time someone goes into ubuntu for help askin about installin ubuntu on XFS, i hope to be able to help em better than #ubuntu does
<Burgundavia> jmg: if it is a bug, file it
<Burgundavia> forums or mailing list is another good bet
<jdong> reitblatt: it has gotten better since 2.6.17 with write barriers
<jdong> though that is a very good point to raise with XFS -- it tends to aggressively write-cache a lot more
<LordLimecat> there IS a bug with the installer, itll keep askin you if yer sure that you want to install grub on xfs....you have to hit "go back" to continue, because continue goes back
<reitblatt> jdong: no longer caches everything in memory?
<reitblatt> I see
<jdong> reitblatt: well it still does, but IDE writeback cache no longer corrupts metadata structures
<reitblatt> gotcha
<jdong> that was a major problem before write barriers
<jdong> where a hard shutdown would require xfs_repair
<LordLimecat> dataloss is not an issue
<reitblatt> yeah, I found that out
<LordLimecat> not for me
<LordLimecat> worst case i lose 1/2 a day
<jdong> LordLimecat: also be warned XFS is very slow at the creation and removal of a large number of files
<jdong> so keep that in mind before choosing XFS
<jmg> LordLimecat: checked launchpad for open bugs on the installer/xfs (guys help me out... what is the installer package?)
<reitblatt> my array needed 3GB of RAM to run xfs_repair
<reitblatt> ubiquity?
<jdong> currently my pbuilders are on a internal reiserfs loopback image on top of XFS
<LordLimecat> i understood it was faster for removal of files vs ext3? benchmark quoted 22secs for ext3, 10 for xfs (700mb iso)\
<jmg> right ubiquity
<jdong> LordLimecat: for a single large file, true
<jdong> LordLimecat: for a large collection of small files, very false
<jdong> LordLimecat: pbuilder cleanup on XFS: 45s; EXT3: 15s; reiserfs: 5s
<LordLimecat> thats fine, "large collection" for me would be like 30 files
<jmg> hehe, so xfs is the warez fs
<jdong> jmg: haha
<jmg> nice
<jdong> LordLimecat: yeah, that'll be fine for you then. Just a heads up in case your were unaware :)
<jmg> does it have zero reserved blocks by default as well? :-)
<jdong> XFS's deletion time is pretty constant regardless of how huge the file is
<jdong> jmg: yep
<jmg> jdong: see earlier statement :-)
* jmg wonders how to make usb disks mount as readable for all users
<LordLimecat> i saw a "real world" benchmark recently that seemed pretty good....conclusion was that ext3=slower, less cpu, more reliable, XFS=faster, more CPU, jfs=less cpu
<jdong> LordLimecat: I've used basically every FS that works under Linux, from reiser4 to ntfs-3g
<LordLimecat> and?
<jdong> LordLimecat: In general, I would only suggest XFS for systems where large files is the primary motive
<jdong> (i.e. files consistently >=50MB)
<LordLimecat> for a system where pics and mp3=the goal?
<LordLimecat> what then?
<jdong> ext3 is fine for those workloads
<jdong> and will likely perform better too
<jmg> drwx------ 16 tom  tom     32768 2007-04-29 17:46 EXTERNAL
<LordLimecat> id still kind of like to know how to do it
<jmg> oops
<jdong> XFS is terrible under high metadata activity
<jdong> LordLimecat: try booting onto a LiveCD and reinstalling GRUB by hand
<LordLimecat> im tryin to figure out where i want grub to GO
<jdong> to your ext3 /boot
<LordLimecat> i have a Sata drive on ide channel 3.....thats not hd0 is it?
<jmg> what mounts the drive? is it udev?
<jmg> hotplug?
<jdong> jmg: HAL
<jdong> LordLimecat: check with your tab key (hd<TAB>
<LordLimecat> jdong: i...dont have a ext3 /boot anymore, after that failed, someone said that XFS for all was fine
<LordLimecat> so i deleted all, and made all XFS
<jmg> oh god xml
<LordLimecat> and that doesnt work at all
<jdong> umm, ok, that works too
<jdong> LordLimecat: find your XFS root then
<LordLimecat> grub refuses to install
<jdong> the installer will refuse to install GRUB
<jdong> but hand-install works fine
<LordLimecat> ah
<jmg> even better there should be an option in removable devices for permissions
<LordLimecat> itll throw a fit, crash out @94%?
<jdong> you can't use the grub-install command!
<Burgundavia> ok, I tagged dabar for telling people to come here for help
<jdong> you must use sudo grub
<jdong> and then the typical root, setup, quit
<LordLimecat> so grub install is the last thing in the installer, right?
<LordLimecat> cause installer didnt get past that
<jdong> yeah, you should be fine
<LordLimecat> wait, should i have been trying to install grub to sda rather than hd0?
<jdong> no, no
<jdong> you need to use (hd0,0)
<jdong> root (hd0,0)
<jdong> setup (hd0)
<jdong> qui
<jdong> quit*
<jdong> assuming that hd0,0 = /dev/sda1 = your XFS root
<LordLimecat> im assuming i need to learn a TAD more about partitioning real quick
<LordLimecat> hold on
<jdong> LordLimecat: all you have to do is figure out what GRUB device your hard disk is.
<jdong> GRUB's built in tab completion is excellent for that
<LordLimecat> whats been throwing me off is that it wanted to install grub to hd0 before and after i removed my ATA drive (ide channel 1)
<jdong> if the only drive in your system is that SATA drive, it will show up as hd0
<jdong> most likely....
<LordLimecat> what happens if i later attach a drive to an ata channel?
<LordLimecat> will that fuck everythin up?
<LordLimecat> oh wait
<LordLimecat> i get it
<LordLimecat> do i need to pastebin 2 lines?
<LordLimecat> (tab completion isnt working in sudo grub-install )
<jdong> I already said, do not use grub-install
<jdong> it is the command that hangs on XFS
<jdong> you need to load a grub prompt via sudo grub
<LordLimecat> ah
<LordLimecat> this is nice
<LordLimecat> it IS hd0,0, but...Error 1: Filename must be either an absolute pathname or blocklist
<jdong> root (hd0,0)
<jdong> don't forget the ()
<jdong> setup (hd0)
<jdong> quit
<LordLimecat> i dont need install?
<jdong> nope
<jdong> setup does all that work
<LordLimecat> ah
<LordLimecat> see, if i had never tried this, i wouldnt have learned how to install grub!
<LordLimecat> pretty cool, thanks
<jdong> not a problem
<LordLimecat> sorry to bug you all :D
<jdong> don't sweat it; XFS install is a pretty obscure thing
<jdong> the next time I see an Installer guy, I'll try to ask what's up with it
<LordLimecat> so....for more complicated questions like this, or kernel compiles (yes, ive seen the guides, they sort of suck), what channel would i go to?
<jdong> I have no idea which internals are to blame for the issues here....
<super_spam> why is this channel not titled devel-ubuntu
<LordLimecat> people in #ubuntu dont really answer questions if youre not a noob, or dont spam every 15 mins
<jdong> LordLimecat: they should still be done via another support mechanism
<LordLimecat> anythin more advanced than drivers, they ignore you
<jdong> LordLimecat: try the forums, mailing lists, etc
<LordLimecat> alright
<super_spam> try suse or fedora
<LordLimecat> well, im off, hopefully it worked
<jdong> yeah, good luck
<Burgundavia> super_spam: ummm?
<jdong> *grr* 4 more ktorrent crashers
<jdong> imbrandon: please look over that KTorrent SRU when you get a chance; the bugreports on KTorrent are flowing in like mad
<super_spam> susedhas 0 bugs atm
<super_spam> is tghere gonna be support for dmraid 
<super_spam> in installer?
<jdong> suse has 0 bugs, huh.
<super_spam> actually, -1
<jdong> cool :)
<super_spam> so what about dmraid support
<super_spam> will it ever be there
<jdong> dmraid is already supported in the alternate installer, no?
<super_spam> can you tell me anything about that?
<jdong> the alternate install CD should be able to set up dmraids
<jdong> at least from my memory it does
<super_spam> thanks for the hint.
<jdong> no problem
<LordLimecat> it wasnt meant to be
<LordLimecat>  :(
<LordLimecat> thanks anyways guys
<jdong> aww sorry to hear that
<jdong> my tip to you... don't use XFS root
<jdong> make an ext3 root
<jdong> use XFS to store your data
<LordLimecat> and xfs home?
<jdong> yep
<jdong> that also alleviates any XFS bottlenecks that might occur from processing all the tiny files that are a part of any Linux install
<LordLimecat> im sort of tinkering with that thought, i want kubuntu, xubuntu, and ubuntu installations sharing data
<LordLimecat> (and i dont want packages shared)
<jdong> hey Hobbsee, whatcha doing in and out?
<LordLimecat> one other question, how would i get usage info on unionfs?  is there a command i can man or google?
<jdong> never played with it myself
<jdong> though I'm sure googling for howto's will get you somewhere
<LordLimecat> tried, most articles seem to be on why its so great, not how to use it -_-
<LordLimecat> lol
<LordLimecat> looks pretty cool tho
<jdong> http://gentoo-wiki.com/HOWTO_VERY_small_Portage_Tree_with_SquashFS_and_UnionFS
<jdong> that is a good example of how unionfs is used
<LordLimecat> awesome, thanks
<jdong> the scripts/application are specific to Gentoo
<jdong> but you can still see how they used their mount command
<jdong> and I'm sure the .txt documentation files INSIDE the unionfs source will be the most comprehensive
<jdong> that's a place people commonly forget to check
<LordLimecat> not sure this is gonna be QUITE what i thought it was, but looks dooable
<LordLimecat> i had gotten the impression that it merged folders, not partitions
<LordLimecat> sort of like having all of yer music in different folders browseable in one big merged folder
<jdong> you can probably use it to merge directories.
<jdong> as I've said, I haven't used it myself
<LordLimecat> heh, alright
<LordLimecat> this article will keep me busy for a while
<jdong> and I doubt a lot of people here use it much either :)
<jdong> probably finding some LiveCD/UnionFS camp such as Sidux/Kanotix/Knoppix will get you the best answers
<Mithrandir> jdong: everybody who uses the live CDs uses unionfs, so that's not strictly true.
<jdong> Mithrandir: oh we're not using the silly dm-cow thingie?
<Mithrandir> not any more, and haven't done so since sometime in the dapper cycle.
<jdong> ok
<jdong> LordLimecat: bug him ^^. he knows everything. off to be now.
* jdong hides
<LordLimecat> lol
<LordLimecat> shit, its 3am
<LordLimecat> linux is so bad for me
<jdong> hey you're in my timezone
<LordLimecat> at least on windows i got tired of it and could go to sleep
<LordLimecat> i SWEAR i started messing with my kernel only a few hours ago
<LordLimecat> that was like 7pm -_-
<cjwatson> jdong: no, the alternate CD doesn't have dmraid support either
<jdong> look at that, I'm wrong 2 for 2 today :)
<cjwatson> basically nobody's come up with patches so I think realistically I have to go buy an appropriate system so I can play with it
<Hobbsee> jdong: you dont want to know.
<jdong> cjwatson: is dmraid the same thing as fakeraid?
<cjwatson> jdong: the XFS thing is a race condition between grub and XFS. It's not that grub-install is broken, it's more likely that by the time you get round to running grub by hand the race window has closed
<cjwatson> jdong: I think so
<jdong> the motherboard fake software raid thingie?
<cjwatson> yes
<jdong> ah, ok
<jdong> ther'es a wiki howto that kind of hacks the livecd to install on it....
<jdong> but it sounded like device-mapper found the devices somewhat magically
<cjwatson> there are hacks around, though being a race they're mostly "works for me"
<cjwatson> some people never reproduce the hang in the first place
<cjwatson> I had people asserting it didn't exist while I had a machine that reproduced it every time
<jdong> cjwatson: I've had it happen flakily
<jdong> cjwatson: I've been able on a few occasions to install grub on XFS without issue
<jdong> but at other times it consistently hangs
<cjwatson> fundamentally it's because XFS skirts the letter of what POSIX lets you do, while GRUB assumes that little bit more than POSIX
<jdong> yeah, that sounds like XFS to me :)
<cjwatson> there appears to be no way to force XFS to actually write data out to disk, short of unmounting the filesystem (which isn't feasible at that point)
<cjwatson> and GRUB does raw reads from the disk using its own filesystem code
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: we could add a sysfs node somewhere in the tree forcing all xfs fs-es to actually sync.
<jdong> cjwatson: xfs_freeze?
<Mithrandir> and just poke that from grub-installer.
<jdong> freeze and unfreeze the FS?
<jdong> freeze forces all unwritten transactions onto the disk
<Mithrandir> jdong: except it doesn't, it seems.
<Mithrandir> iirc we're using that + a sleep
<jdong> hmm that's disappointing.
<jdong> maybe it's not sleeping long enough ;-)
<jdong> lol
<jdong> or the "evict by dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null bs=1M count=$RAMSIZE" method :D
<jdong> ah, I'm gonna get smacked for coming up with these hacks
<Hobbsee> i'm now disappointed in both koffice and openoffice.
<Mithrandir> bs=1M and count=$RAM is kinda silly, since you then end up reading a million times your ram size off the disk
<jdong> lol you know what I meant :D
<jdong> read enough of the disk to evict the cache...
<Fujitsu> Mithrandir: The autosync seems to be missing some things (complearn-{gui,mpi} for example). Is there any reason for that?
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: they might be stuck in NEW, they might be blacklisted, they might be new source packages or something might be broken
<ion_> mithrandir: 977 GiB of memory? :-)
<Fujitsu> They're new source packages.
<Fujitsu> Oh, haven't they been done yet?
<Mithrandir> new sources haven't been synced yet
<Fujitsu> I see. Thanks.
<Mithrandir> I didn't get around to them on Friday and I pretend not to work in the weekends.
<Hobbsee> hah
<Hobbsee> pretend
<StevenK> Mithrandir: Let us know how that turns out. :-P
<Fujitsu> Now that MoM's hardware is fixed, is it likely to turn back on in the next couple of days?
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: hopefully, yes.
<jdong> oh god it's 3:15AM
<Hobbsee> excellent
<Fujitsu> jdong: To bed with you!
<Hobbsee> jdong: yes.  sleep's overrated
<Fujitsu> Mithrandir: Great :) That'll make things easier.
<jdong> well... I'll get a few hours
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: and once it's synced, it needs to pass NEW:
<Mithrandir> lp_archive@drescher:~/syncs$ new-source | wc -l
<Mithrandir> 490
<Hobbsee> woo
<Fujitsu> Wow, that's a lot.
<Fujitsu> And there's a heap more in Debian NEW.
<cjwatson> jdong: xfs_freeze doesn't work, we tried that.
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: I wonder if remounting it ro then rw would do the trick and force stuff to be written out.
<Mithrandir> if nothing has open writable file descriptors on the fs, it should work fine.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: I suggest not doing syncs until our kernel headers are less buggered
<cjwatson> no point having it all fail to build
<Mithrandir> oh, point.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: I think I tried that and it didn't work well for some reason
<Mithrandir> ok
<cjwatson> and it also wasn't clear from the XFS source that remounting read-only was enough
<Mithrandir> I guess I'll get Adam to do a small mass-giveback once the kernel headers are fixed.
<cjwatson> but it's about two and a half years since I looked at this seriously
<cjwatson> Adam has instructions by mail on recovery, unless you have enough access to do that
<Fujitsu> I think it might end up being a bit larger than small, Mithrandir.
<Mithrandir> Fujitsu: as of last evening it was about 500 failures in gutsy.
<cjwatson> basically manually install linux-libc-dev from feisty and build the new linux-source-2.6.22
<Fujitsu> Out of less than 1000 builds, I think.
<cjwatson> yeah, but out of 10000+ source packages
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: well, technically and archive-admin has access to mangle the chroots, and I think I have the knowledge how to do it, but I'd rather not since it makes IS upset (for a good reason; it is an abuse of priviledges)
<Mithrandir> s/and/any/
<Mithrandir> d and y are just too close on the keyboard.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: right, I meant official access :)
<ion_> Better map d to the left-hand Control key and y to the numpad minus key.
<cjwatson> similarly I think I could do it if I really had to
<Mithrandir> understood; no, I don't have official access.
<sponix> any plans on releasing an iso with the ATI fixes (Radeon X1400) ?
<jdong> sponix: last word I heard was it's possible, once said fixes were available
<sponix> hmm
<sponix> I've seen two posted fixes, one is to run reconfigure on the X server, and the other for making the console work is changing the vga line in the grub menu.list
<sponix> I've seen two posted fixes, one is to run reconfigure on the X server, and the other for making the console work is changing the vga line in the grub menu.list
<cjwatson> ok, neither is suitable for proper integration, I suspect
<cjwatson> (and the first sounds like guesswork; note that the live CD already runs reconfigure at boot)
<cjwatson> //whois sponix
<cjwatson> AIUI it's a driver regression and needs to be fixed in the drive
<cjwatson> (damn lag :-))
<cjwatson> driver
<sponix> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/89853
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 89853 in xorg-server "[regression]  7.2 broke vesa: "No matching modes found"" [High,Needs info]  
<sponix> I haven't verified this fix to work on my box yet though, I just installed the commercial 55Meg ati driver in a chroot after the alternate cd install :)
<sponix> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/89853
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 89853 in xorg-server "[regression]  7.2 broke vesa: "No matching modes found"" [High,Needs info]  
<sponix> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/2299https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/89853server/+bug/89853
<sponix> this other one is more work-a-round for the console, easiest way is just to turn off the splash and going a normal vga text console ;)
<sponix> cjwatson, I'm an nobody, just wanting to see if I can make a slight difference 
<cjwatson> sponix: right, I'm just saying the bug needs to be fixed properly rather than scattergun releasing ISO images with dubious workarounds
<cjwatson> Timo appears to be working on it already
<cjwatson> (from the bug log)
<sponix> ok
<sponix> I see you're point there
<sponix> my only other question, I've seen no work toward CAC (common access card) software, like fedora's coolkey
<sponix> are there any plans in the works ?
<cjwatson> attempts to fix it are appreciated, but releasing ISO images is actually a fair bit of work so it's best to take time to do it right
<sponix> true, is it hard to make a custom ISO. and do you have links to any directions ?
<sponix> wouldn't mind making my own build in the mean time, instead of hacking to h4x0r it every time I install
<Hobbsee> sponix: info is on the wiki - easily findable
<Hobbsee> search for reroll iso's live cds, etc.
<sponix> Hobbsee, sweet
<Hobbsee> first couple of links that come up
<Treenaks> My biggest problem with the 'official' ubuntu isos is that they all set a graphics mode -- which breaks kvm on my remote server (and I have to forward X and use qemu for installation ;)
* Treenaks might look those pages up as well :)
<mpt> Those poor BSTQC guys keep releasing test results for one release when the next release is either out or nearly out
<Treenaks> mpt: bstqc?
<Fujitsu> mpt: Heheh, yeah.
<Fujitsu> The testing they do is really impressive.
* Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-devel.log
<fabbione> Hobbsee: no i didn't know. i don't check logs and if nobody reports it, i won't fix it
<Hobbsee> fabbione: right.  consider it half-reported :)
<fabbione> i already fixed it
<Hobbsee> woo :)
<Hobbsee> thankyou
<fabbione> but logs that are not logged == lost
<Hobbsee> yeah, figured as much.  oh well
<fabbione> nothing i can do or will do for it
<fabbione> they are just irc logs
<Hobbsee> of course
<Hobbsee> true.  only thing i was interested in was the MOTU meeting, but someone else had a log of that :)
<Kmos> Hobbsee: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=4946
<vciaglia> hello
<Enola_Gay> hi all
<Enola_Gay> How can I debug Xorg crashes? There seems to be no dbg package anymore.
<Treenaks> Enola_Gay: come back on Monday, pitti knows :)
<Enola_Gay> Treenaks: thx
<Enola_Gay> cu all
<mario> hi folks
<Nafallo> morning mat 
<Nafallo> morning mario 
<Nafallo> damn. lots of nicks on m :-P
<mario> haha :)
<mario> what's up Nafallo ? :)
<Nafallo> not much at all, I'm afraid. :-)
<mario> ah :)
<mrmonday> are there any developers here who would be interested in doing an article explaining how ubuntu is developed for full circle magazine?
<mrmonday> http://fullcirclemagazine.org/index.php/topic,73.0.html
<mrmonday> no tkaers?
<mrmonday> *takers?
<Chipzz> mrmonday: it's weekend; most developers who might take it aren't present
<mrmonday> ok
<mrmonday> i will ask again tommorow
<bmhm> hi every1
<highvoltage> hey bmhm 
<bmhm> argh... since 7.04 i can't boot anymore nor install it with GUI
<bmhm> seems some framebuffer setting
<bmhm> i wonder it did make into the release
<jdong> bmhm: do you have an ATI Radeon X1nnn series card?
<bmhm> almost, Radeon Mobility X700 (Laptop
<bmhm> but i think they Do have similar issues
<jdong> woudln't doubt if it's the same problem
<jdong> bmhm: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=414194
<bmhm> the funny thing is, even console won't work
<jdong> the console doesn't work?
<bmhm> thy i take a look at it
<jdong> I would recommend (1) installing with the Alternate CD
<jdong> (2) booting into recovery mode after install
<jdong> (3) executing the given commands
<jdong> hoping that you know how to get your network up from recovery mode?
<bmhm> (1) done
<bmhm> jdong: its always up, don't worry ;)
<bmhm> I study informatics.. :P
<jdong> ok, good luck man!
<bmhm> but i doubt it will solve the missing boot screen, but anyway, i'll try it
<jdong> missing boot screen... you mean the splash isn't working, and you're ending with blank consoles?
<bmhm> jepp
<bmhm> exactly
* jdong hopes it isn't a redox of the usplash bug(s)
<bmhm> hmmm... i had another very different bug with uspash before
<jdong> mjg59: ^^ is this the same ATI bug that plagued Edgy pre-release? usplash...
<bmhm> i couldnt install splash screens. instead a test picture was shown
<jdong> bmhm: try booting with vga=791 and seeing if that gives you splash?
<bmhm> uhm jdong i'm still in recovery mode
* jdong is a total dimwit when it comes to usplash... so....
<bmhm> hang on a second
<jdong> well get your video drivers working first :D
<jdong> that's top priority
<jdong> missing pretty graphical boot... meh :)
<bmhm> erm
<bmhm> how to tell apt-get NOT to use the CD?
<bmhm> i always forget where that file goes
<jdong> remove it from sources.list 
<jdong> /etc/apt/sources.list
<bmhm> ty
<jdong> np
<bmhm> fine, I often forget these paths since i don't need them regularly
<jdong> meh, don't sweat it. some of us feel bad for remembering this kind of stuff.
<jdong> some of us have friends who torment me by printing off a list of /usr/bin and asking me what random things do...
<jdong> oops pronoun switch.
<bmhm> :>
<bmhm> ok, rebooting, hang on :>
<Nafallo> haha
<Nafallo> jdong: tell them to man $i ;-)
<jdong> Nafallo: they treat me as their manpage :D
<jdong> *sigh* I need new friends that don't make fun of me for being a nerd :D
<Nafallo> jdong: tell them you're not? :-)
<bmhm> jdong: well, vga=791 works, but its misplaced *lol*
<bmhm> anyway, its even coloured!! :D
<bmhm> wow everything works :D
<jdong> bmhm: look at /etc/usplash.conf
<bmhm> thanks a lot man...
<jdong> make sure the resolution in there is 1024, 768
<bmhm> well no
<bmhm> 1280x800 actually
<bmhm> 15,4" laptop
<jdong> no,  but 791=1024x768 :)
<bmhm> ah i see
<sladen> could I borrow somebody's eyes about  bug #109679  look in /etc/init.d/hotkey-setup  at the 'stop' code.  The only way I can come up for it to fail is 'kill' with no state-file
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 109679 in hotkey-setup "hotkey-setup pre-rm script can return failure (fiesty upgrade failure)" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/109679
<bmhm> jdong: one last thing if I may... bcm43xx or ndiswrapper? :)
<jdong> bmhm: I've heard more people get ndiswrapper working than bcm43xx
<jdong> but I am inexperienced with that chipset. I tend to run far far away
<bmhm> yeah, so did i in 32bit
<bmhm> yeah you really should
<jdong> however, broadcom+ndiswrapper = no network-manager
<bmhm> its awefull
<bmhm> well no...
<jdong> you have to use wifi-radar , or etc/network/interfaces traditional
<bmhm> in 6.10 i made it work...
<jdong> it cuts out every time network-manager tries to do a scan
<jdong> which is like once every few minutes :D
<bmhm> well no ^^
<bmhm> in 6.10 i used 2 managers at once
<bmhm> gnome-network for calbe
<bmhm> gnome-network-manager for wirelss
<bmhm> worked brilliant
<jdong> interesting
<Nafallo> gnome-network-manager?
<bmhm> sth like this
<Nafallo> s/gnome-// ?
<bmhm> i forgot their names
<jdong> I had a friend who consistently had network-manager drop out on iwlist wlan0 scan
<bmhm> hrhr
<Nafallo> ah
<jdong> which n-m likes to do once in a while
<bmhm> well i used both at once
<jdong> as I said, I run far far away from that chipset :D
<bmhm> however, ndiswrapper didn't work in amd64
<bmhm> yeah
<bmhm> its built in...
<jdong> I wouldn't be surprised if the 'wrapper didn't work in 64-bit
<jdong> I heard FC7t4 has working iwlwifi?
* jdong downloads ISO
<bmhm> restarting xchat
<bmhm> brb cya
<bmhm> re
<bmhm> jdong: still - the boot logo is misplaced
<bmhm> i added vga=791 to menu.lst
<jdong> and verified that usplash.conf is set to 1024x768?
<sladen> jdong: iwlwifi?
<bmhm> yes it is, jdong 
<bmhm> reason is the laptops widescreen?
<jdong> sladen: Intel's new binary-daemon-less ipw3945
<jdong> sladen: it's in Feisty too, but doesn't work well, so we still use ipw3495
<jdong> apparently it works in FC7T4
<jdong> that'd be great news -- at least Centrino Duo will have working wifi out of the box for Fedora
<jdong> bmhm: the reason is that ATI is cursed :)
<jdong> bmhm: that's the extent of my usplash knowledge :)
<bmhm> yeah you're right :>
<bmhm> hmm
<jdong> I have a mobility radeon x1400
<jdong> I totally feel your pain
<bmhm> :)
<jdong> but my usplash somehow works correctly
<jdong> lol
<bmhm> acer_acpi won't work anymore... draht... my wifi will never ever work
<jdong> sounds like ... fun?
* jdong is so glad his Acer is Centrino Duo
<bmhm> ah i found some forum threads
<jdong> yay! forums to the rescue :)
<jdong> BenC_: fglrx 8.36.5 confirmed working reliably on my system; so it's probably safe for gutsy lrm
<Alternati> how do i help
<Alternati> i want a job with ubuntu, can i have an application?
<Soccrmastr> Alternati, was just gonan suggest you come here heh
<sladen> Alternati: Ubuntu is a community project.  Some companies (like Canonical) do employee people to work on Ubuntu
<bhale> http://www.ubuntu.com/employment
<sladen> Alternati: http://www.ubuntu.com/employment
<Alternati> wow
<Alternati> does it pay good
<Soccrmastr> ..........
<sladen> Alternati: that depends on what you manage to negioate with you employer, and whether you feel that it is a "good deal"
<khermans> can someone update packages.ubuntu.com to make feisty the default in the drop down lists please
<pygi> Alternati, mind them, please read this: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<jdong> khermans: try e-mailing the address on the site... tha'ts worked for me in the past
<khermans> jdong, thx
<Alternati> wow it looks cool
<Alternati> how did you guys do it
<jdong> not all of us who work on Ubuntu are being paid to do so
<jdong> in fact, many if not most of us are volunteers that work out of our good heart :)
<Soccrmastr> what exactly is the payoff though, for you personally
<Alternati> i mean how did you learn all this stuff
<Alternati> how long have u been computing
<jdong> I first started using a computer when I was 8... been a computer nerd ever since
<Alternati> how old are you now?
<jdong> got involved with Linux like 5 years ago
<jdong> I'm 18
<Alternati> i have been using a computer since about 6
<Alternati> and im 19 now
<Alternati> and i still cant do shit
<pygi> lol
<Alternati> its amazing how some people learn
<Alternati> i smoke too much weed is the thing
<cjwatson_> Alternati: I think most of our developers are pretty much self-taught, but don't worry too much, I didn't start Debian development until I was 20
<Alternati> instead of doing technical stuff i play counter-strike
<cjwatson_> hmm, no, 21 I think
<Soccrmastr> I am a large contributor to Ubuntu development, I am 14 and have gotten into Linux about a year and a half ago.
<highvoltage> *sigh*. I feel so old.
<Alternati> 14?!
<Alternati> amazing!!
<Alternati> barely learned to walk a day ago
<Soccrmastr> lol im jk Im not a developer but I am 14... 0.o
<Alternati> i feal so stupid
<jdong> Alternati: there is no age requirement around here; there's people of all ages and walks of life
<Alternati> its amazing what marijauna does to the mind
<Alternati> isnt it?
<highvoltage> Soccrmastr: are you sacater by any chance?
<sladen> I think there's #ubuntu-offtopic  to discuss that
<highvoltage> Alternati: it's actually quite messed up what it does to your mind
<Alternati> lol
<Alternati> i wish i hadnt smoked so much, so i could learn about linux
<highvoltage> Alternati: as sladen said, #ubuntu-offtopic is the place to discuss this
<Alternati> im going to download linux now and learn
<Soccrmastr> sacater?
<Alternati> linux is ana amazing future for all of us
<mc44> sladen: actually drug talk isnt allowed in -offftopic :)
<highvoltage> Soccrmastr: he's also 14 years old and got involved with Ubuntu quite recently
<Alternati> we could all make operating sysstems if we all used linux
<Alternati> think about it
<Alternati> we have to spread the word
<highvoltage> Alternati: #ubuntu-marketing
<Soccrmastr> I started with Ubuntu, "moved on" to gentoo, but that install was all sloppy since it was my first try.
<Alternati> whoa
<Alternati> and ur 14?
<jdong> Soccrmastr: hey hey, another Gentoo user. I was a Gentoo user before I got involved with Ubuntu
<Alternati> when i was 14 i used to kick people off of AIM and i thought i was smart on computers
<Alternati> and i never advanced after that
<Alternati> too much weed
<Alternati> MARIJUANA!!!!
<Alternati> MARY JANE
<jdong> back on topic... can an Archive Manager estimate for me ETA till the next Backports processing date?
<Alternati> IM IN LOVE WITH MARY JANE
<jdong> Alternati: that's enough :)
<jdong> also, whoever is processing backports, unless otherwise stated, pull from Feisty.... I have not tested any newly synced gusty versions!
<Alternati> do you not approve of drugs?
<Alternati> hey, isnt linux for mostly liberals?
<Alternati> or not?
<cjwatson> jdong: you need to mention that in each backport request
<jdong> cjwatson: I will be more consistently explicit in version numbers from now on
<cjwatson> best to mention feisty though; version numbers are more easily skimmed over by accident
<jdong> ok
<Soccrmastr> jdong: why did yous witch from gentoo to Ubuntu?
<Alternati> is linux for liberals mostly?
<jdong> I'll post madison-lite lines from now on -- version and distro
<bmhm> ah it works
<bmhm> well almost
<bmhm> nm-manager is its name
<jdong> Soccrmastr: too much work administering the system, and the development community could be really rough at times
<cjwatson> ok, guess I wasn't doing much else right now
<bmhm> it can't manage wireless connections, since gnome-network-manager is using it
* cjwatson peers at the backport list
<jdong> thanks cjwatson :)
<zul_> jdong: rough? thats a bit of an understatement
<jdong> zul_: I was trying to be polite :)
<cjwatson> interesting, edgy-security -> dapper-backports
<cjwatson> wonder if backport-source can do that ...
<jdong> cjwatson: haha I try to keep it interesting for you :)
<bmhm> jdong: how do i force gnome-network-manager NOT to manage my wifi?
<bmhm> i can only set "roaming" or "on"
<cjwatson> canonical.launchpad.webapp.interfaces.NotFoundError: 'edgy-security'
<cjwatson> sigh
<bmhm> :(
<jdong> bmhm: OT for this channel, but by telling /etc/network/interaces to manage it NM will lay off
<cjwatson> aha, backporting from edgy does it since the version in -security is the newest across the whole distrorelease
<jdong> cjwatson: cool
<bmhm> hmm didnt work... wah i try myself
<Alternati> is debian super fast?
<Alternati> will it run faster than windows xp?
<jdong> Alternati: this is not the right channel for those questions
<jdong> ask in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-offtopic, etc
<Alternati> DUDE FUCK YOUI IM HIGH
<Alternati> I CANT CHANGE CHANNELS
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+o cjwatson]  by ChanServ
<cjwatson> Alternati: please relax
<Alternati> im making a list
<cjwatson> this is a development coordination channel, and developers often spend some time in the morning reading scrollback; best not to waste that time too much :)
<Alternati> i wish i could be all professional
* maxamillion grabs his popcorn and sits in the back row hoping something interesting will happen
<ion_> Its a popular misconception that being intoxicated is a permission to be an ass. :-)
<Alternati> why who wroter rules
<Alternati> u cant say it is or is not permission
* maxamillion chomps on his popcorn as things seem to be getting good
<Alternati> its all about control
<Alternati> people like u always cry for the whales
* Alternati was kicked off #ubuntu-devel by cjwatson (please be high elsewhere, thanks)
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [+b *!*=Nickname@*.ri.ri.cox.net]  by cjwatson
* Alternati was kicked off #ubuntu-devel by cjwatson (cjwatson)
<maxamillion> YES!!!! the ban!!!!
<maxamillion> that's what i was waiting for .... 
<maxamillion> thanks for the show :)
<mc44> cjwatson: that ban might be a little vague
<bhale> mc44: it only needs 5 minutes
<poningru> anyone know what's going on with the new wifi stuff?
<poningru> i.e d80211
<jdong> poningru: which new wifi stuff?
<poningru> I guess I should ask this in -kernel
<jdong> we already have it in our kernel tree....
<poningru> but I have no idea where to ask about this
<poningru> we do?
<jdong> mac80211, btw :D
<jdong> yep
<poningru> I thought it was unstable like crazy
<jdong> it's all in Feisty
<poningru> 0.0
<jdong> most of those drivers aren't used by default
<jdong> but yeah, I know iwlwifi was pretty unusable in Feisty
<poningru> so not all wifi devices will use the stack yet?
<jdong> hence it's not default.
<jdong> correct, not all drivers use the stack
<poningru> do we have a page somewhere that lists the drivers that do use it?
<poningru> and 'how can I help?'
<jdong> poningru: find /lib/modules/`uname -r` | grep mac80211
<jdong> and probably some more than that
<poningru> oh no wai
<poningru> bcm is using the new stack?
<jdong> there is a variant of bcm that does
<poningru> is that being used in feisty?
<jdong> I'm also pretty sure that's not the default bcm43xx used :D
<poningru> lsmod | grep bcm
<poningru> bcm43xx               125332  0 
<poningru> ieee80211softmac       31232  1 bcm43xx
<poningru> ieee80211              34760  2 bcm43xx,ieee80211softmac
<poningru> so... am I using it now?
<jdong> nope
<johanbr> There are two versions, bcm43xx and bxm43xx-mac80211. Looks like you're using bcm43xx.
<jdong> you're using the ieee80211 version
<poningru> I'm using the 4318 chipset do you know if it will work with the newer module?
<poningru> I guess I can just experiment and find out
<jdong> LOL I just had a stack of e-mails from Ubuntu Installer libnotify me
<jdong> that was FUN!
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-b *!*=Nickname@*.ri.ri.cox.net]  by cjwatson
* mode/#ubuntu-devel [-o cjwatson]  by cjwatson
<highvoltage> ubuntu installer has its own folder in my mail client :)
<sacater> gah
<sacater> hello?
<highvoltage> hey sacater 
<sacater> no
<sacater> i am me
<sacater> sacater
<sacater> soccrmaster is not me
<highvoltage> sacater: yes, figured that out :)
<sacater> i is me, me is i
<sacater> highvoltage: go onto gizmo
<highvoltage> sacater: I don't have a mic with me atm :/
<cjwatson> whoa, way too much in edgy-backports NEW
<Q-FUNK> howdy!  is anybody working on packaging network-manager 0.6.5 ?
* jdong kicks LP
<ion_> q-funk: What are its release highlights? (I can check for myself after this movie, but perhaps youd be willing to list them in the meantime. :-) )
<Q-FUNK> ion_: among other thngs, support for stage 2 authentication options with wpa_suplicant and with vpn plug-ins
<Q-FUNK> ion_: which is precisely what I need to be able to use n-m with the corporate network. ;)
<ion_> q-funk: Alright. No support for per-network static configurations yet, though?
<Q-FUNK> ion_: that, I haven't noticed.
<Q-FUNK> http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/NetworkManager/0.6/NetworkManager-0.6.5.changes
<Q-FUNK> I'm currently reading through the changelog
<ion_> Thanks, ill take a look at that later.
<cjwatson> ooh, could be that's what I need to use WPA in the London office
<Q-FUNK> I am mostly interested in those advanced authentication methods.  I cannot log into my employer's network with out that.
<Q-FUNK> cjwatson: could vey well be.  does it need MSCHAPv2 ?
<cjwatson> just WPA-PSK AFAIK but I'm not particularly well up on the acronym soup so don't bother probing for further details :)
<Mithrandir> ion_: that'd be a 0.7 thing, I believe.
<Q-FUNK> ;)
<Mithrandir> cjwatson: why won't just current NM work for you?
<wasabi> bah somebody made `mythtv` a reserved username
<Mithrandir> Q-FUNK: no, ttbomk nobody is working on packaging it.
<cjwatson> Mithrandir: how should I know? :)
<cjwatson> but it doesn't
<wasabi> i really dislike how we use reserved names  for stuff heh
<cjwatson> wasabi: yes, me.
<cjwatson> because, well, it is
<wasabi> =( broke my mythtv box on feisty upgrade. =(
<cjwatson> er
<Q-FUNK> assides from support for configuring stage two of EAP, another bug is that when using the VPN plugins, it would need to change the resolv.conf to resolve via the vpn's ns.
<cjwatson> ok, you don't mean the change I made then
<Q-FUNK> Mithrandir: ttbomk?
<wasabi> Dunno. The post-inst script seems to be trying to chgrp something to mythtv
<wasabi> but no such group exists.
<Mithrandir> to the best of my knowledge.
<cjwatson> the change I made was to tell the installer that that username was reserved
<Q-FUNK> ah
<wasabi> because it failed to create the group. because it failed to create the user. because I already have a user.  at least that's what it looks like.
<wasabi> ahh. hmm
* cjwatson clears edgy-backports NEW and goes to do something more fun with his evening
<_StefanS_> hi there
<_StefanS_> anyone know the channel name for the PS3 ubuntu ?
<cjwatson> _StefanS_: I don't believe there's a specific one
<sladen> _StefanS_: not sure if there is one, /query bcollins
<cjwatson> that's not Ben's nick for starters
<cjwatson> and anyway Ben is travelling
<cjwatson> _StefanS_: what's the problem?
<_StefanS_> well I was trying to figure out whether that 15% lockup problem on the livecd's where getting solved
<cjwatson> it's known, best fix at the moment is to use xubuntu
<_StefanS_> I'm just installing using the alternate cd right now, but the regular cd's should work as well :)
<_StefanS_> err.. have the xubuntu fixed the installer?
<cjwatson> Ben narrowed it down - the thing that's happening at that point is that swap is disabled in order for partitioning to happen
<cjwatson> no, it's just that Xubuntu takes less memory so disabling swap doesn't kill the system
<cjwatson> it's not actually an installer bug
<_StefanS_> ah..
<_StefanS_> well 256mb should be enough for everyone... hmm or whatever it goes like :)
<_StefanS_> thanks for the info
<cjwatson> we noticed significant slowdown in installation from feisty beta to final with 256MB
<cjwatson> it doesn't seem to correspond to any particular process using more memoy
<cjwatson> memory
<_StefanS_> uhm, well guess it should using alot less for a cd only based system
<cjwatson> it may well be a leak in the kernel or something, but I don't think anyone's diagnosed it yet, unfortunately
<cjwatson> actually running from CD takes more memory, not less
<_StefanS_> ah yep ofcourse
<_StefanS_> I must be tired hehe
<_StefanS_> well, I would like to help bcollins if he needs to have stuff tested
<_StefanS_> I mean its not like the ps3 is something everyone has :)
<_StefanS_> thanks for the help
<wasabi> anybody else ever think we should allocate some prefix for reserved usernames? =/
<sladen> wasabi: like what?
<wasabi> doesn't really matter to me.   s:blah
<wasabi> it goes against everything ever done on any posix system that i'm aware of.
<wasabi> but I'm sure tired of dealing with this problem over and over again. ;)
<sladen> wasabi: ah, ISWYM, I thought you were talking about IRC nicks
<wasabi> oh, no.
#ubuntu-devel 2008-04-21
<crimsun> superm1: negligibly more latency than direct/raw (hw:0), but that's not the primary concern - introducing the regression of inaudible audio for a significant use case (non-Free Flash) is unacceptable by default for an LTS.
<TheMuso> crimsun: Any thoughts on the dnsoop issue reported?
<TheMuso> dsnoop
<crimsun> TheMuso: it's likely because his usb speakers don't expose any capture; I asked for verification.  We can wrap the module-alsa-* portion in .nofail if that's the case.
<TheMuso> crimsun: Right.
<superm1> if the section needs to be overridden just for a single binary package compared to what it is now, should I do an upload to change this, or is that ignored and an archive admin needs to override the section?
<superm1> i thought it was the latter, but wanted to make sure
<StevenK> Both
<StevenK> The latter usually happens first
<superm1> so at this stage in the game, maybe do an upload that fixes it, subscribe ubuntu-archive and ask for it to be properly overridden when it's released?
<dholbach> good morning
<xtknight> hello.  i'm wondering about Bug 212546.  this seems like something that'll be universally annoying to people (change in behavior from gutsy)
<xtknight> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pidgin/+bug/212546
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 212546 in pidgin "pidgin no longer flashes/notifies on taskbar upon receipt of message" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/212546
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 212546 in pidgin "pidgin no longer flashes/notifies on taskbar upon receipt of message" [Undecided,New]
<pitti> Good morning
<StevenK> Morning pitti
<warp10> Good morning
<pitti> hey StevenK, moin warp10
<warp10> hey pitti!
<geser> Guten Morgen pitti
<tkamppeter> pitti, hi
<Silicium> hi all
<mantiena> hi all
<mantiena> are there any plans to update language-packs before final release ?
<pitti> hi tkamppeter
<pitti> hey geser
<pitti> Riddell: can you please have a quick look at bug 60448?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 60448 in xorg ".xsession_errors file grows out of control & saturates disk space" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/60448
<Silicium> is there a bug with grub on preseed?
<Silicium> or a change in the installer between beta and RC ?
<mantiena> pitti: maybe you could tell me if there are any plans to update language-packs before final release?
<\sh> Silicium, what doesn't work?
<Silicium> grub install
<pitti> mantiena: again? They were just updated over the weekend
<pitti> mantiena: so, no; those are the final packs
<Silicium> i have commented out the grub lines in preseed and test again
<pitti> mantiena: we have plenty of time to update them post-release
<mantiena> pitti: you are not right, language packs aren't updated in this weeked, latest language-packs-gnome are ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿20080415 :(
<pitti> mantiena: right, that's the latest export that LP provides
<pitti> mantiena: exported on April 15, langpacks built on April 18, uploaded on April 19
<pitti> mantiena: I meant that they were built on the buildds over the weekend
<Silicium> argh
<Silicium> grub cannot install in /target/
<Silicium> lets debug :/
<Silicium> OH
<Silicium> there is a new feature :)
<Silicium> publish debug logs
<Silicium> o/
<mantiena> ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿pitti, so, you are misleading translators :(
<mantiena> pitti: LanguagePackTranslationDeadline date is April 17 at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
<mantiena> ï»¿our team did lots of hard work in April 16 - April 17
<pitti> mantiena: the confusion seems to be that translators think that they can update strings until April 17, but from the distro side we need to have the packages ready in the archive at this date
<pitti> but we have some 5 days turnaround time for that
<mantiena> pitti: is it so hard to update language packs now ?
<pitti> mantiena: well, it isn't lost, we'll update translations maybe two weeks after hardy's release
<pitti> mantiena: as I said, a complete turnaround takes 5 days; next LP export is available Thursday morning, and building/uploading/buildd'ing the packs takes another 2
<pitti> so it's not hard, it's impossible
<Silicium> hmm
<Silicium> looks like a pkgsel problem
<pitti> mantiena: we should really clarify that in the wiki docs, I agree
<thom> Silicium: might be better in #ubuntu-installer
<Silicium> yea
<tkamppeter> pitti, I have done a small fix in foomatic-rip on Ricoh's request, bug 129999
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 129999 in gasp-code "Bad things happen when setting the background color in begin_graphics()" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/129999
<pitti> tkamppeter: I saw it; IMHO that should go into -updates, though (SRU)
<tkamppeter> Sorry, bug 219999
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 219999 in foomatic-filters "foomatic-rip does not handle enumerated-choice options with choices "True" and "False" correctly, leading to Duplex on most Ricoh printers not working" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219999
<tkamppeter> pitti, what about the crasher fixes on s-c-p of last week? Will they go into Hardy or are there also an SRU?
<pitti> tkamppeter: those were uploaded earlier, they might make it
<seb128> pitti: I've uploaded a gedit-plugins new version on the upstream request (the current version was setting an incorrect translation domain and breaking some gedit translations when installed), the package is in universe and I'm granting the GNOME exceptions there, so please accept the update ;-)
<pitti> seb128: yessir
 * seb128 hugs pitti
<seb128> danke ;-)
<pitti> seb128: done
<mantiena> ï»¿ï»¿pitti, it's a pitty if there are no way to include our work in final release :( about 7-8 people traslated lots of strings from our team, I see simmilar situation in other teams too, look for example at https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/firefox-3.0/+pots/firefox - about ~20 teams improved firefox translation after April 15
<pitti> mantiena: it will be in -updates, and in the point release, too
<mantiena> ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿yea, I understand this, but we though, that we are in time to have good translations in 8.04 release :)
<highvoltage> moral of the story, keep an eye on the release cycle dates!
<mantiena> highvoltage: hehe, we followed official ReleaseShedule
<seb128> highvoltage: they did, the schedule is not clear
<\sh> Silicium, -server daily from yesterday worked like a charm...(standard install)
<highvoltage> seb128: ah, I see
<mantiena> ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿seb128: maybe I can simply add note, that real translation deadline is 2 days before LanguagePackTranslationDeadline in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule ? Also it would be wise toï»¿ fix Ubuntuï»¿ReleaseSchedule template, if there are such
<seb128> mantiena: better to speak to slangasek or pitti rather and let them do the required changes
<pitti> right
<mantiena> ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿pitti: so, you will change ï»¿ï»¿https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule by yourself ?
<pitti> I clarified it on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LanguagePackTranslationDeadline
<mantiena> ï»¿ï»¿pitti: I think it's not enough to clarify this onï»¿ï»¿ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LanguagePackTranslationDeadline - lots of translators already have read ï»¿ï»¿https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LanguagePackTranslationDeadline ï»¿and they will look only on ï»¿ReleaseSchedule
<mantiena> I think it's not hard to add small note
<mantiena> in ï»¿ï»¿https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule
<ln-> what are those empty squares you are outputing?
<dholbach> stgraber: are you going to update iso.qa.ubuntu.com with new ISOs? :)
<seb128> dholbach is iso testing addict now ;-)
<mantiena> ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ln-: I don't see any ï»¿squares :(
<dholbach> seb128: hardly ;)
<Fujitsu> mantiena: You're using Pidgin?
<ln-> mantiena: what are those things in the begin of your line, before my nick?
<pitti> mantiena: done
<seb128> dholbach: iso will changes again no? is there a point to do a round of testing on the current ones?
<dholbach> seb128: 20080421 fixed a bug I found in an earlier ISO ;)
<mantiena> ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿ï»¿pitti: thanks
<mantiena> Fujitsu: yes, I don't found any other IRC client in Ubuntu 8.04 LiveCD
<mantiena> s/don't/didn't/
<Fujitsu> Right, that'll probably be Pidgin trying to tell us he's typing a message.
<ln-> ... ... .... well that's exactly what i wanted someone else's Pidgin to tell me.
<ln-> sounds extremely stupid behavior.
<Fujitsu> ln-: Right, it's stupid for IRC. Other Pidgin users that I've seen have trailing inverted Is, rather than leading spaces.
 * laga doesn't see it in irssi
<Fujitsu> It doesn't happen for many.
<Fujitsu> Must be some strange plugin.
<ln-> it appears the character is "ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE", so depending on the font it may show as... zero-width space.
<Fujitsu> Aha.
<laga> maybe pidgin can become the new MS comic chat? :)
<ln-> and apparently the font i'm using doesn't have that character.
<Fujitsu> laga: It's about as comical and ridiculous.
<stgraber> dholbach: the release managers usually add the ISOs as they build them :)
<asac> ogra: ok, i recovered from the work-grave and could do classmate image testing now. appreciated?
<pitti> asac: "grave"? I hope you mean "rave"? :-)
<asac> :)
<asac> yeah ... indeed it was a rave in the grave ;)
<dholbach> stgraber: ahhh ok :)
<sladen> 2002 era fashions: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7358483.stm
<Keybuk> tkamppeter: meh, spoke to soon
<Keybuk> tkamppeter: even after removing the firmware, I get about 1-2 prints before the printer fails
<Silicium> pitti: you are here?
 * pitti jumps over to "there"
<Silicium> :)
<Silicium> i have a problem installing pgsql in preseed
<Silicium> so then i have created a post install script running while preseed
<ogra> asac, absolutely
<Silicium> the setup is sucessfully
<Silicium> but another pakage using the pgsql as depency does not correcly install
<Silicium> cause cant connect to the database
<pitti> Silicium: so you have a cluster created? (check with pg_lsclusters)
<Silicium> cjwatson saays you are the maintainer of pgsql so i ask you
<Silicium> nope
<Silicium> so i have a syslog from preseed
<pitti> Silicium: hm, then it obviously didn't work
<pitti> Silicium: do you see anything like "/dev/null: permission denied" in the log? that's one common reason of failure which i saw in hardy
<Silicium> nope
<pitti> Silicium: hm, can you show me the log? does it have the package installation output?
<Silicium> see query for the debug url
<pitti> Silicium: I didn't get a /query; you need to be registered to send /querys on freenode
<Silicium> oh
<pitti> (at least to other registered people)
<Silicium> mom
<Silicium> i kno
<Silicium> i know
<Silicium> now you get a qry :)
<Silicium> so is partially german, if needed i can re run the setup in english
<pitti> Silicium: did you get my response?
<Silicium> nope
<pitti> oh argh; seems I haven't been registered either since my server rebooted, sorry
<Silicium> :)
<Silicium> np
<Silicium> same here
<pitti> *blush*
 * Hobbsee waves
<asac> ogra: throw instructions at me then
<ogra> asac, well, install it, use it :)
<ogra> test susend/resume
<asac> ogra: throw instructions at me :)
<asac> i forgot the procedure
<asac> sorry
<ogra> asac, install you mean ? they are at the top on http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/classmate/images/8.04/
<asac> ogra: ok, will test after lunch (~1h from now)
<ogra> teake your time :)
<pitti> ogra: ugh, devilspie??
<pitti> ogra: LTSP installs unsupported packages by default, hmmm
<pitti> ogra: there is no bug # in the ltsp changelog, so hard for me to judge approval
<ogra> pitti, --kisok is by no means used by default, promoted or anything else :)
<ogra> its an extra plugin you need to specify
<ogra> pitti, same as the mythbuntu plugin, just seeit as universe part of ltsp :) it doesnt install any deps if you dont attempt to create a dedicated kiosk chroot
<ogra> pitti, and its for a regression in that plugin that has no bug number ... just a nice to have (else firefox will run windowed on kiosk systems)
<pitti> ogra: ok, thanks
<highvoltage> that's interesting.
<amitk> bryce: what would be the best place (package?) to add custom config options to xorg.conf?
<alex_joni> is a line "Build-Depends: foo | bar, baz" acceptable?
<ScottK> As long a foo is a real package and not a virtual package, yes.
<alex_joni> I am trying to add a Build-Depends: for lyx-qt|lyx
<ScottK> Should be fine then.
<alex_joni> (that package changed name from dapper to hardy)
<ScottK> Which is the hary one?
<alex_joni> ScottK: it's complaining that the package is not found..
<ScottK> hary/hardy
<alex_joni> lyx
<TheMuso> asac: After seeing the latest feedback on bug 192888, I'm not at all willing to upload that change.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 192888 in libflashsupport "firefox crashes on flash contents" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192888
<ScottK> alex_joni: I'm not sure.  I'd expect that to work.  Packaging questions are generally better asked on #ubuntu-motu.
<alex_joni> ScottK: cool, will move to there
<elmo> sbuild will chose the first of an or'ed dependency
<elmo> if you're targetting the package at hardy, use the hardy name first
<ScottK> alex_joni: ^^^
<alex_joni> elmo: it's targeted at both hardy & dapper
<alex_joni> dapper likes lyx-qt, hardy lyx
<alex_joni> ok, then I'll work around this
<asac> TheMuso: yes, I agree its too risky to take for final .. we should try hard to fix this for 8.04.1
<TheMuso> asac: Agreed.
<ogra> who knows probably someone comes up wit a fix to libflashsupport in the meantime and the prob is moot :)
<asac> TheMuso: milestoned for 8.04.1
<asac> ogra: i am pretty sure that nobody can fix libflashsupport :)
<ogra> asac, someone will
<ogra> fedora uses it all over the place
<asac> ogra: well. good for us ... they are insane then ;)
<ogra> well, that means someone will try to fix it at least :)
<asac> ogra: libflashsupport implements a contract from years ago ... who knows maybe they completely miss to implement some symbol
<ogra> i dont care about their sanity :)
<AstralJava> Well, even NTFS is writable these days... /me shrugs
<ogra> they use nspluginwrapper everywhere though
<asac> ogra: after release we will talk to adobe to sort this out. the real solution is to use ESD
<ogra> so the problem wont be exposed as much
<asac> ogra: right ... that fixes the crashes of firefox, but flash crashes anyway :)
<ogra> haha
<asac> but yes, we should use nspluginwrapper as well.
<asac> thats sane ;)
<ogra> well, it points the user to the acual problem ...
<asac> indeed
<asac> the real problam is that you blow libflashssupport into adobes house :)
<asac> so the problem is libflashsupport :)
<ogra> hich is wrong as well, since its pulse code now ... but they get warare of it at least
<ogra> heh
<ogra> *aware
<asac> yeah
<cr3> where's the process for getting something into hardy at this point?
<nebajoth> I doubt there IS one
<Hobbsee> cr3: new package?
<nebajoth> its going to be released in days
<cr3> Hobbsee: just an update
<cr3> Hobbsee: patch even
<Hobbsee> cr3: does it fix a release critical bug?
<Hobbsee> or is it otherwise very very important?
<cr3> Hobbsee: I'm not sure what constitutes "release critical bug". is fixing a bug from people saying  "Wow! This pisses me off!" and "I don't tolerate this kind of !@#$" release critical?
<Hobbsee> cr3: depends.  bug #?
<seb128> cr3: what is the issue exactly?
<cr3> Hobbsee: bug #201336
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 201336 in hwtest "report contains package information" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201336
<cr3> seb128: personal information such as packages and versions are being submitted without the knowledge of the enduser
<cr3> seb128: so, I have simply added a summary page before submission to at least inform the user about this
<seb128> cr3: is the packages list something really required?
<cr3> seb128: according to the launchpad folks responsible for the hardware database, yes
<ogra> seb128, that info shall be made available to you as bug triager t some point (if teh user allows this) ... would you like to have that info ?
<seb128> cr3: if you add a non translated dialog nows there is some users who will get angry
<seb128> ogra: no, apport already has those informations
<cr3> seb128: between having something done behind the user's back and having not translated, what do you think might be more important?
<ogra> users will be able to link their hwtest info to bug reports in the future ...
<seb128> cr3: I would remove the "include packages informations" rather
<ogra> with a simple checkbox
<seb128> to be honest I don't think hwtest is really ready to be used but that's an another topic
<seb128> my preferred choices would be
<seb128> - don't include those informations
<seb128> - show a summary
<seb128> - do nothing
<seb128> but I'm not the one deciding there
<seb128> you want to talk to slangasek or pitti
<ogra> do nothing as in "leave as is" ?
<seb128> ogra: yes
<cr3> seb128: that's in order of preference, right? I actually tried to negotiate your #1 with the LP folks, specifically, I suggested having a checkbox to give the choice to the enduser whether they want to send package information or not. However, the LP folks said that information was required and I believe their relaxng schema enforces it anyhow.
<Mithrandir> it doesn't sound RC, if anything it sounds like something that can be fixed in an SRU.
<seb128> cr3: yes
<cr3> Mithrandir: if you guys say so, I'll go with it. just wanted to bring this to your attention :)
<seb128> we should just not use hwtest in 8.04, fix it and use it in 8.04.1
<cr3> it currently sends useful information though, that'd be unfortunate :(
<seb128> we have a similar application for years, I'm not convinced it does anything useful so far
<seb128> and the thing really lacks a maintainer
<seb128> almost all the bugs are untouched on launchpad apparently
 * TheMuso sighs. Users wanting us to ship paviewcontrol.
 * TheMuso can't remember why we chose not to...
<ogra> seb128, but hwtest has a maintainer (a whole team even) i dont think hwtest now is worse than hwdb ever was, its an improvement in any case
<seb128> ogra: maybe they should start looking at bugs then ;-)
<ogra> heh
<ogra> rather at the schedule :)
<ogra> its not easy to grasp and know when you can do what if you dont work with it regulary
<cr3> seb128: point well taken, I should be more regular in my bug triaging :(
<seb128> cr3: anyway better to ask pitti or slangasek about it when they will be around still, better to avoid bad comments from some users because we didn't consider the bug
<cr3> seb128: yeah, I'm fine either way with their decision. thanks for the advice and for the kick in the butt about checking my bugs :)
<seb128> cr3: that's alright, I just noticed that this issue has been reported some weeks ago, and it would have been easier to deal with it before the freeze, but everybody has lot to do, etc so it's easy to be behind on triage
<cr3> seb128: hwtest is more of a personal project and I work on it mostly evenings. however, these days, I've even been doing my usual work evenings. this will get better soon :)
<seb128> cr3: alright ;-) The comment was not against you, but since we ship it by default we should have somebody in the team looking at the issue, you don't have to be this somebody ;-)
<cr3> seb128: heh, don't worry, this project is something that is close to my heart so I actually enjoy the opportunity of maintaining it. I also appreciate the privilege of having such user feedback, it's always good to hear from folks even if it's to complain :)
<seb128> cr3: btw in case you didn't notice I did the category change we talked about in hardy
<cr3> seb128: yeah, your revision update kinda surprised me, I already had an update poised for hardy with the category: GTK;System;Settings;
<pitti> hi cr3; what's up?
<cr3> pitti: just wanted to bring your attention to bug #201336 for hwtest in which a user says: "Wow! This pisses me off!" and "I don't tolerate this kind of !@#$". I have a fix for this where I simply display a summary of the information about to be submitted.
<seb128> cr3: you were not on IRC and the change was really needed
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 201336 in hwtest "report contains package information" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/201336
<james_w> could a buildd admin give back lvm2 on powerpc please? It was hit by the ntpdate problem on saturday, and hasn't been kicked yet. https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lvm2/2.02.26-1ubuntu9/+build/566009
<cr3> seb128: agreed, thanks for that :)
<elmo> james_w: done
<james_w> thanks elmo
<cr3> pitti: if you don't think that's critical, I'm fine with submitting an update after the release. if you think this could make it before release, I think this would be appreciate by some folks.
<pitti> cr3: that sounds like a feature freeze/UI freeze/string freeze exception?
<cr3> pitti: UI freeze, it was more than just a string change
<pitti> cr3: yes, I mean all of those
<cr3> but there was no additional windows and the user experience is exactly the same, except that the user won't get so pissed off :)
<cr3> pitti: heh, I thought it was a question :)
<cr3> pitti: I don't want you to spend too much time on this unless you think it's worthwhile, we're all crazy busy nearing release. do you think 8.04 or 8.04.1?
<pitti> cr3: my gut feeling is .1 to not rush this in and break things; a package list isn't that private, is it? at least not more than your hardware/system identification?
<pitti> cr3: but displaying the report before makes sense indeed; it's just very late for that :/
<cr3> pitti: if I know you're running a kernel with an exploit because you haven't done updates, that could present a problem :)
<cr3> pitti: it's a very simple report, no details at all: The following information will be sent [blah blah]. Distribution details, Device information, Processor information, Packages installed, Test results.
<pitti> cr3: can you please ping someone from the doc team about it, whether it's ok for them to change this right now?
<cr3> pitti: a more detailed report would've required major work which I wouldn't dare submit for an exception.
<cr3> pitti: where would I do that? #ubuntu-doc? :)
<pitti> cr3: ah, I see; if the doc team is fine with it (maybe because they did not document hwtest at all), then we should consider it
<emgent> lol
<pitti> cr3: http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc is the ML
<emgent> ops wrong window.
<pitti> cr3: yes, IRC is fine as well, if you can catch someone
<cr3> pitti: just to make sure I understand, if ubuntu-doc documents the shortcoming of hwtest then that'll be fine. otherwise, we should consider the bugfix in hwtest. is that right?
<pitti> cr3: I mean if ubuntu-doc is fine with making that change now; i. e. it won't break documentation (or they'll update it)
<seb128> I think it's late for this cycle
<cr3> pitti: ah, thanks for the clarification. much appreciated :)
<seb128> you will break translations in any case
<pitti> yeah :/
<pitti> ogra: just curious, why does ltspfs have debian/patches/? isn't ltsp maintained upstream in bzr?
<ogra> pitti, yes, but not the packaging
<ogra> and we're in deepfreeze, i dont introduce new upstream versions :)
<pitti> ogra: oh, surprising
<pitti> ogra: that's fine :)
<asac> ogra: ok classmate image is booting ... lets see
<ogra> with hardy i pulled debians package for the first time, i think vagrant just wanted to be polite and added dpatch
<asac> ogra: ill use german install?
<asac> or plain english for now?
<ogra> as you like
<amitk> ogra: ping regarding team ppa for cmpc
<ogra> amitk, what team should that be ?
<amitk> ogra: do you already have a cmpc team in launchpad?
<ogra> nope, but i need one anyway to put the cmpc packages under as upstream
<ogra> amitk, i meant how do you wat the ACL to look like :)
<ogra> *want
<ogra> amitk, ok, i got a general cmpc-developers team https://launchpad.net/~cmpc-developers
 * ogra hugs pitti 
<tkamppeter> pitti, bug 220041 is a one-line-fix, can we still get this into Hardy?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220041 in system-config-printer "CUPS Printer Setup dialog deceiving" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220041
<asac> ogra: classmate image is broken for me
<asac> ogra: after install i get UUID= ... and are asked to enter maintenance shell
<ogra> asac, in what way ?
<ogra> ugh
<asac> fsck.ext3 ... unable to resolve 'UUID='
<amitk> ogra: I applied for membership. Could you also activate the PPA for this team..
<asac> ogra: ill reboot and try english install i guess :)
<ogra> asac, you dont have a UUID value at all ?
<asac> ogra: image is hardy-classmate-20080417.1.img
<asac> ogra: let me boot again to look in fstab
<mathiaz> slangasek: could you check why the latest version of likewise (0ubuntu3) hasn't been published ?
<ogra> asac, dont have a second USB key plugged in there or so during install. right ?
<pitti> mathiaz: because I accepted it from unapproved like 2 minutes ago
<asac> ogra: no i don't
<asac> just the one from the image
<ogra> hmm
<asac> hitting ctrl+d makes it boot properly though
<asac> currently logging into desktop
<ogra> amitk, accepted and activated  https://edge.launchpad.net/~cmpc-developers/+archive
<asac> ogra: ok in fstab there are /boot /live/cow and /var with a valid UUID
<ogra> asac, right
<asac>  /home has none though
<ogra> and in menu.lst ?
<ogra> oh ?
<ogra> let me check
<asac> its juust UUID= /home ext3 ...
<ogra> ouch
<ogra> thats indeed wrong
<amitk> ogra: perfect. I'll upload a kernel there later. Meanwhile, don't forget to add that archive to sources.list :)
<mathiaz> pitti: great ! thanks :) - it will be published in the archive within a few hours then.
<ogra> amitk, i wont, for sure ... thanks :)
<ogra> asac, can you mail me /var/log/cmpcinstaller.log ?
<asac> let me try wifi to get net :)
<asac> ok NM works ;)
<ogra> my reference install of this image definatey has a UUID for /home
<asac> ogra: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7676
<amitk> ogra: have you published the scripts that you use to roll these classmate images? I need it for another customer...
<asac> ogra: anythin else you need?
<asac> ill keep it running for now. let me know
<ogra> asac, fdisk -l output for /dev/sdb
<ogra> amitk, see pm
<asac> ogra: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7677
 * ogra scratches head
<amitk> ogra: what pm?
<ogra> amitk, the one i just sent :)
<asac> ogra: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7678
<ogra> asac, yes, the formatting fails already
<asac> maybe because there was edubuntu installed before? :)
<ogra> nope
<asac> ogra: let me know if there is something i can do to help you ;)
<asac> i could retry :)
<ogra> yes, i bet it works the second time ...
<asac> ogra: so do you need more info from this broken install?
<asac> ogra: how do those uuid get generated?
<ogra> asac, vol_id <devicename>
<ogra> the prob is that there is no vol_id if the formatting fails
<pitti> tkamppeter: I'll have a look
<asac> ogra: ok retry?
<asac> 3
<asac> 2
<asac> :)
 * asac restarts classmate to do another install
<asac> ogra: i have three USB devices wen selecting boot device:
<asac> USB:M-Sys uDiskOnChip
<asac> USB:Generic Storage...
<asac> USB:Corsair Flash ...
<asac> the latter is my disc
<ogra> right
<ogra> Generic is the SD reader
<ogra> M-sys is the internal disk
<asac> ogra: ok i try German again ;)
<ogra> i suspect the sync call after fdisk fails
<ogra> so this install should wrok fine
<asac> ogra: but that should be reproducible?
<asac> hmm
<asac> why would it fail the first time and not now?
<ogra> if the ioctl fails you dont have the new partition table available ... after a reboot you will ... hmm, actually no ...
<asac> ogra: so did the layout change from previous hardy install i made?
<ogra> the installer zeroes out the partition table before it starts fdisk
<ogra> yes, /var got its own partition, /home moved one down
<emgent> tseliot: :)
<tseliot> ï»¿emgent: hi
<asac> ogra: ok reinstall helped
<asac> ogra: ill leave it to you how to fix it now ;)
<ogra> asac, right
<asac> most lkely ou need to change partition layout to test that on my system again :)
<asac> if you have a fix we can figure something out :)
<ogra> asac, well, i guess i need to virtually re-plug the device
<ogra> i'll think about something
<ogra> Hobbsee, did you notice that your shermans-aquarium fix requires a fix in libgai0 as well ?
<Hobbsee> ogra: yeah.  thought it got synced too, dammit.
<mlind> seb128: still around? could you take a look at bug #211693
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 211693 in gnome-mount "nautilus cannot eject ipod while eject(1) does" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/211693
<Hobbsee> ogra: requested the sync now
<ogra> :)
<seb128> mlind: what about it?
<Hobbsee> ogra: i got more concerned over LP dying for 14 hours over the weekend.
<seb128> mlind: ETOOMUCHTODO
<mlind> seb128: lol, maybe for point release then :)
<tkamppeter> pitti, thanks for taking the s-c-p fix in.
<pitti> tkamppeter: no problem
<james_w> does anyone know of a change that may have "fixed" bug 218868?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 218868 in aalib "libaa1-dev uninstallable; causes FTBFS in other packages" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218868
<james_w> someone has tested for me and says that the installed file doesn't have the space which has been accused of causing the problem.
<bryce> amitk: depends on the config options...  generally these days we've been trying to set default options in the drivers themselves, however it is also possible to set them in dexconf in the xorg package.
<bryce> amitk: if the option is important, it's usually always better to set via the driver, since xorg.conf is only generated on fresh installs or if the user deliberately reconfigures
<superm1> pitti, an archive admin needs to override the section for a binary package that's already in place right?
<pitti> superm1: right
<superm1> okay i'll just subscribe ubuntu-archive then to a bug
<superm1> thanks
<pitti> superm1: but it should be fixed in the package at the next opportunity, too
<superm1> i did in the package already, but it didn't take effect
<superm1> so i assumed that was why
<pitti> no, it won't
<pitti> exactly
<cjwatson> bryce: do please remember to add patches to debian/patches/series if necessary ;-) just fixed xkeyboard-config ...
<cjwatson> (or quilt push -a; quilt import or whatever)
<bryce> whoops
<amitk> bryce: I want to enable SHMConfig to allow for synaptics control
<mjg59> amitk: By default?
<amitk> mjg59: no.. for a classmate image
<ogra> amitk, oh, why do we need that ?
<mjg59> amitk: I really wouldn't recommend shipping anything to anyone with that set
<bryce> mjg59: am I remembering correctly that SHMConfig presents a security concern?
<mjg59> Yes
<amitk> ogra: mjg59: Is there a better solution for keypad locking?
<mjg59> Yes. Implement XInput properties.
<amitk> ogra: sorry.. not classmate. I am confusing my vendors here....
 * ogra doesnt really understad what amitk is doing there
<ogra> ah
<ogra> ok
<ogra> phew
<mjg59> amitk: But if you mean with existing code, then no. There's no secure way of implementing it.
<bryce> amitk: there was a bug (with a patch) on adding SHMConfig by default, but the memory access situation was determined to be a  security issue, so the patch was not accepted
<kees> amitk: err... I thought the synaptic controls had already been added to the mouse controls (by mjg59)
<mjg59> kees: No, only a subset of them
<amitk> mjg59: It has to be existing code. We can't devote a whole lot of time to this one.
<mjg59> amitk: Then it's not possible
<syke> hi
<syke> can someone with an amd64 laptop help me try to reproduce something?
<mjg59> amitk: SHMconfig generates a shared memory segment that's world writable. Any user can alter the coordinate mapping on the pad in order to trigger mouse presses at arbitrary points on the screen
<mjg59> amitk: And if you enable this for anyone, I swear that I will write an exploit for it :)
<mjg59> Oh, also it'll utterly fail in the fast user switching case
<amitk> mjg59: point taken. I'll enable it with the warning 'mjg59 is out to get you' :)
<mjg59> amitk: Seriously. It's not in the slightest bit acceptable for this to go in anything that ships to anyone.
<bryce> ogasawara_: 36978 looks like a kernel bug (can't ping the machine).  Can you take a look?
<ogasawara_> bryce: sure
<jdong> mjg59: is there a better method of implementing a touchpad-keyboard interlock that doesn't come with the implications of SHMConfig?
<amitk> mjg59: ok. I'll inform the vendor.
<mjg59> jdong: Yes. Implement XInput properties.
<amitk> TeTeT_: discussion with mjg59 ^^^
 * jdong googles xinput properties
<bryce> amitk: there was also a follow on patch to the bug I mentioned earlier, which the submitter claimed did not have the security issue, but I don't think that was reviewed.
<mjg59> jdong: They don't currently exist. It's analagous to the xrandr properties
<amitk> bryce: do you have a bug number?
<mjg59> jdong: Essentially, allow input drivers to provide properties
<bryce> amitk: one sec
<mjg59> Then they can be runtime configured within the confines of the existing X security model
<bryce> amitk: 155937
<bryce> mjg59: I'd love to get your thoughts on the follow up patch in that bug.
<bryce> (although it's too late for hardy, and hopefully xinput will be ready to go by intrepid...)
<tjaalton> altough synaptics is dead upstream
<mjg59> bryce: Yeah, that's an improvement. However, it still means that remote X clients can influence the input stream in a way they currently can't
<mjg59> Also, that any user with admin privileges can screw everyone else. Though given sudoers, that's a given.
<mjg59> I dislike tying desktop functionality to an admin group, though. It encourages people to make normal users admins
<bryce> mjg59: thanks, yeah I suspected as much.  I'll update the bug.
<syke> I entered the flash bug here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/220317
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220317 in ubuntu "flash hangs when screen blanks on laptop with hardy" [Undecided,New]
<syke> if there's any info I can/should add to help debug, let me know
<ogra> grumble ... where is dholbach ?
<james_w> slangasek: hi. I'd like your opinion on bug 218868. It's milestoned, but no-one seems to be able to reproduce at the moment.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 218868 in aalib "libaa1-dev uninstallable; causes FTBFS in other packages" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218868
<slangasek> james_w: looking
<james_w> There is a proposed patch, but I have no idea if it is correct as I can't reproduce. Normally I would just mark it incomplete, but as it is milestoned I wanted your input.
<cjwatson> IIRC install-info got made more sane
<slangasek> james_w: right, hadn't tried to reproduce that yet; assumed it was really there because the symptoms are very familiar
<slangasek> cjwatson: in the time since infinity's most recent autobuild test, though?
<cjwatson> though, hmm, yeah, that can't be right, that bug is recent
<slangasek> infinity: need more info on bug #218868, it seems no one (incl. me) is able to reproduce this with a current hardy
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 218868 in aalib "libaa1-dev uninstallable; causes FTBFS in other packages" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218868
<elmo> infinity's sick today
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> who else might have an inside view of the pkgautotest framework?
<elmo> pkgautotest?
<elmo> so not using that
<elmo> it's a dak buildd setup
<slangasek> ok then
<elmo> I can give the package back and/or manually install libaa1-dev, see if it's reproducible, I guess
<cjwatson> aalib.info in the archive has:
<cjwatson> START-INFO-DIR-ENTRY
<cjwatson> * AA-lib: (aalib).              An ASCII-art graphics library
<cjwatson> END-INFO-DIR-ENTRY
<cjwatson> none of that leading space business
<cjwatson> my guess is that it breaks when rebuilt
<cjwatson> the autobuild test uses its own output ...
<elmo> oh, right, yeah, we're doing opportunistic use of rebuilt binaries now
<slangasek> ahyes
<slangasek> james_w: ^^ does that help?
<cjwatson> so this comes back to install-info changes in dpkg
<cjwatson> or possibly makeinfo/whatever changes
<james_w> slangasek: probably, yes. I'll test that now.
<elmo> I have the built deb
<elmo> and confirm it has the sapce
<elmo> can provide it/url to it anyone if that's useful
<james_w> elmo: thanks, but rebuilding locally shows the issue, so that's enough for me.
<cjwatson> james_w: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=451268
<ubotu> Debian bug 451268 in texinfo "librep-doc: confusing INFO-DIR-ENTRY makes postinst fail" [Grave,Open]
<cjwatson> scroll down towards the end
<cjwatson> and also Debian #457741
<ubotu> Debian bug 457741 in texinfo "please make makeinfo behave as before wrt drientries" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/457741
<elmo> 'wishlist'
<cjwatson> james_w: basically suggests that this is a texinfo bug
<cjwatson> james_w: ... except also that it's a mistake in texinfo files, since the patch installed by upstream reads:
<cjwatson> +      /* The zsh manual, maybe others, wrongly indents the * line of the
<cjwatson> +         direntry in the source.  Ignore that whitespace.  */
<james_w> ok, so I should send this patch to joeyh?
<cjwatson> james_w: I just linked the already-fixed Debian bug to the LP bug ;-)
<james_w> cjwatson: thanks
<cjwatson> so either merge if appropriate, or consider it as a backport from unstable if not
<cjwatson> james_w: would a bzr-git import and a cherry-pick be appropriate?
<mvo_> bzr-git?
<james_w> cjwatson: I'm not sure
<jdstrand> slangasek: would you mind looking at the penultimate comment in bug 155947
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 155947 in libnss-ldap "libnss-ldap: calls to initgroups() causes boot to hang when using 'bind_policy hard'" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/155947
<jdstrand> kirkland: ^^
<slangasek> jdstrand: nss_initgroups_ignoreusers -- ah, lovely nss_ldap
<kirkland> jdstrand: looking
<jdstrand> so *finally* I found the cause
<jdstrand> the question is the solution
<jdstrand> slangasek, kirkland: I had 2 thoughts
<jdstrand> a) update ldap.conf to list the different users
<slangasek> patch libnss-ldap to know to skip all users with uid < 1000?
<jdstrand> b) use a modified pre 251-6 solution that will add a file to /var/run when a successful lookup is found.  if this file does not exist, all lookups are soft, if it does exist, libnss-ldap honors bind_policy in /etc/ldap.conf
<jdstrand> 'b' seems appropriate, as if /var/run doesn't exist, no big deal, boot continues
<jdstrand> slangasek: yes, that would be c)
<jdstrand> (I thought of that too)
<slangasek> c) seems correct to me per se
<jdstrand> slangasek: currently the bind policy defaults to hard
<slangasek> yes, which is the sane default for it
<jdstrand> I thought so too, but it horribly breaks things right now :)
<kirkland> jdstrand: you and i have discussed (c) previously
<jdstrand> do you see any problems with c)
<slangasek> because of peripheral bugs, not because the policy of 'hard' is wrong
 * jdstrand nods
<kirkland> jdstrand: now, it seems, you've got a lot more evidence behind why that would solve this
 * jdstrand nods again
<slangasek> I don't see any problems with c); I do think that this is .1 stuff, AIUI this is not a regression and this should get some testing before it's thrust at users
<kirkland> slangasek: well, it could be argued that this is a regression introduced by gutsy
<kirkland> slangasek: gutsy was where this problem surfaced
<jdstrand> slangasek: it is actually a regression for dapper -> hardy
<jdstrand> slangasek: it was a feisty -> gutsy regression that never got fixed
<slangasek> ah
<kirkland> slangasek: and there is the angle that jdstrand mentions, dapper -> hardy installs could be rendered un-login-able
<slangasek> still, I think deferring until .1 is the best course of action here
<highvoltage> ogra: hmm, how do I force a shutdown on the cmpc? I installed the latest image, and when it said "rebooting", I pulled out to fast and now it has a kernel panic :(
 * jdstrand worries about all those dapper desktops upgrading to hardy
<kirkland> slangasek: bind_policy soft hack in the mean time?
<slangasek> I believe the general plan is that dapper upgraders will be suggested to wait until .1 before upgrading
<slangasek> I don't think a soft bind policy is any better, release-management-wise
<slangasek> kirkland, jdstrand: looking at it from the other side, then - how soon do you guys think you could have c) implemented?
<jdstrand> slangasek: well, hmm, I totally see your point, but this is a real bummer for enterprise environments...
<slangasek> and will there be a configuration setting to turn off this check?
<kirkland> slangasek: it's definitely a hack.  but what is going to be our recommended course of action, when users complain about this?  those that do upgrade from dapper -> hardy on day 1
<jdstrand> slangasek: I think I could have a patch for c) either today or early tomorrow
<kirkland> jdstrand: i can help with that, and the testing thereof
<slangasek> jdstrand: incl. a new config option to control the behavior?
<jdstrand> slangasek: that would take longer... and would break string freeze
<slangasek> hrm?
<slangasek> I'm not talking about a debconf /question/ about it
<slangasek> just that it be configurable at runtime by editing the config file, not just a compiled-in setting
<jdstrand> slangasek: well, that would make it easier I suppose
<jdstrand> slangasek: as I do have other things I'm working on, I'd say end of day tomorrow?
<slangasek> that's the safest way I see to ensure that we haven't mis-estimated in thinking that no one in their right mind would need to reference system accounts through LDAP ;P
<jdstrand> slangasek: if I don't make it (or my patch stinks), it could still be .1
<slangasek> jdstrand: ok, I'll accept it if it's end-of-day tomorrow (and passes muster too, obviously)
<jdstrand> slangasek: I think that is totally reasonable-- we can add a note in there about hard bind policy, etc
<jdstrand> slangasek: ok thanks
<bryce> bdmurray: this report seems to not be getting generated:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/reports/gt5subscribers/xorg.html
<bryce> mario_limonciell: on bug 199455, you said you were able to reproduce it.  AMD is interested in taking a look but has trouble reproducing it.  Would you mind describing what you did to trigger it?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 199455 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24 "[fglrx] __driCreateNewScreen_20050727 () from /usr/lib/dri/fglrx_dri.so" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/199455
<Amaranth> ah, attentive upstream binary driver, that's new
<bryce> Amaranth: indeed
<ogra> asac, ping
<ogra> asac, can you open that page  ? https://bugs.freedesktop.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=LTSP  ... it makes my FF error out with XML error
<ScottK> Opens on my Dapper desktop FWIW.
<ogra> hardy with latest firefox
<ogra> i get a cert error for the self signed cert first and then it drops me to an xm error here
<ogra> *xml
<asac> ogra: what version of language-pack-gnome-XX-base?
<SEJeff> ogra, WFM
<ogra> no idea, i upgraded today, checking
<SEJeff> Did you restart ff after upgrading?
<ogra> 20080415
<ogra> SEJeff, it didnt tell me to
<asac> ogra: 20080415ubuntu1 you need
<ogra> ah,k
<asac> ogra: let me know
<ogra> willdo
<jdong> zul: yo, trying out xen in hardy and finding bug 151327 well and alive... :-/
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 151327 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24 "[fglrx] binary graphics drivers don't load with Xen (2.6.22 and 2.6.24)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/151327
<jdong> unknown symbols kmap_prot and a few others
<ScottK> ogra: Works with current Firefox-3.0 on Hardy Kubuntu.
<SEJeff> ogra, Ditto for hardy ubuntu
<ogra> yeah, apparently ...
<tseliot> jdong: a Xen developer should modify the ï»¿firegl_public.c in order to fix that bug.
<tseliot> jdong: a patch can be found here: http://ati.cchtml.com/show_bug.cgi?id=531
<ubotu> ati.cchtml.com bug 531 in Installation "ATI drivers don't work under FC6 with Virtualization enabled (XEN)" [Major,Resolved: duplicate]
<Kopfgeldjaeger> n8
<jdong> tseliot: I believe that patch is added
<jdong> tseliot: the problem is that the xen hypervisor doesn't seem to export a few needed symbols to the kernel symbol table
<jdong> [   61.480621] fglrx: Unknown symbol xen_invlpg_mask
<jdong> [   61.480809] fglrx: Unknown symbol kmap_prot
<jdong> [   61.481570] fglrx: Unknown symbol kmap_atomic_prot
<jdong> specifically, those three
<zwnj> dput-ing a new package in my ppa, ï»¿i get this error:  Unable to find bicon_0.2.0.orig.tar.gz in upload or distribution.
<zwnj> can someone help me on this please?
<mario_limonciell> bryce, i can reproduce it yes
<mario_limonciell> bryce, i don't have any other use case outside of using mythtv to do it though.
<mario_limonciell> bryce, and it's just a matter of starting myth with the driver active
<bryce> ok, is it just ... ah ok
<mario_limonciell> bryce, followed by watching a show for a little bit
<mario_limonciell> and then quiting
<bryce>  
<mario_limonciell> and it crashes on the quit
<Lightkey> bryce, maya, 3dsmax, renderman
<mario_limonciell> they do the same thing?
<bryce> mario_limonciell: I think lightkey was giving a list of 3d apps ;-)
<bryce> mario, ok thanks that should be sufficient.  I bet they just hadn't tried running from myth
<laga> mario_limonciell: to make it easier reproducible, is it sufficient to run mythtv /some/video/file.avi ?
<mario_limonciell> i'm not sure that will reproduce it
<laga> not sure if the ati guys want to install a mysqld :)
<mario_limonciell> laga, i'd be reluctant to think that it would be sufficient.  the whole DRI surface might (and probably) is only made when the mythfrontend app is made rather than when just the video playback is started
<laga> good point.
<bryce> mario_limonciell: unrelated question...  I'm debating about upgrading my mythtv box, vs. a clean install + manually moving my programs over.  How robust do you think the gutsy->hardy mythbuntu upgrade process is?
<bryce> (I'm going to do a full backup either way, but want to take the approach that consumes the least amount of time/effort)
<mario_limonciell>  bryce there is only one known issue with the upgrade afaik right now
<mario_limonciell> bryce, that being that if you had vnc4server installed
<bryce> ok
<mario_limonciell> you will need to 'reconfigure' vnc in the new upgrade
<mario_limonciell> it migrates you over to x11vnc
<mario_limonciell> since vnc4server crashes the x server
<bryce> good, I don't have any vnc on it
<bryce> hmm, bug id on that?
<mario_limonciell> there is a cx88 LUM bug too, but there is a fix already on its way for it
<mario_limonciell> bryce, yeah bug 180619
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 180619 in vnc4 "Xorg module VNC cores on keyboard input" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/180619
<bryce> btw, I don't know if kees mentioned it already but he did an upgrade last weekend and discovered a bad xfs issue
<mario_limonciell> its because the integrated xserver-xorg is old
<laga> mario_limonciell, bryce: if /var/lib/myth* is on nfs, the postinst scripts will fail AFAIK
<mario_limonciell> kees, didn't mention it to me..
<mario_limonciell> oh yuck
<mario_limonciell> is that the one bryce ?
<kees> bryce: it's not "an XFS issue".  XFS is it's own issue, I just got very unlucky.
<bryce> mario_limonciell: ok.  I think he narrowed it down to being a very xfs oriented error, not mythtv's fault per se
<bryce> kees, ah ok
<laga> mario_limonciell: in the alt disk, when install the master backend task, i get "apache2-mpm-prefork: collies: apache2-mpm", "apache2-mpm-worker: collides: apache2-mpm". apache2-mpm doesn't seem to be a package?
<kees> bryce: I could have very well just happened to do a regular gutsy update and it could have eaten me.  it's just that XFS happened to barf in the middle of the libc update.  *roll eyes*
<mario_limonciell> laga, are any of them explicitly dependent?
<bryce> ah..  <kees> bryce_: heh, well, it's not really myth that's the problem.  XFS ate libc :(
<mario_limonciell> kees, ooh that's rough
<jdong> can someone look at the patch on bug 192605 please?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 192605 in virt-manager "virt-manager does not detect bridge br0" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192605
<laga> mario_limonciell: apache2 | httpd on mythweb, but i'm not quite sure where it comes from. i do blame mythweb ;)
<jdong> that bug still affects Hardy :-/
<kees> mario_limonciell: yeah, I'm rather proud of myself for getting it fixed.  nasty.
<megabyte405_> hey folks - fixing the little packaging issues with abi if anyone's following that bug.  Should I re-roll abiword-2.6.2-0ubuntu1 or make abiword-2.6.2-0ubuntu2?
<mario_limonciell> laga, well do you suppose the issue may be transient?
<mario_limonciell> also remeber your diskless fix didn't show up until after last night's disk was made
<laga> no. we've had some reports about this being broken.. i'm not sure if the cause was the same
<laga> i'm doing some more tests now
<laga> mario_limonciell: i've got the full, non-engrish error message now.
<mario_limonciell> pastebin?
<laga> "the following packages have unmet dependencies:" \n "apache2-mpm-prefork: conflicts: apache2-mpm" \n "apache2-mpm-worker: conflicts: apache2-mpm"
<laga> and then comes the usual "E: broken packages" \n "tasksel: aptitude failed (100)"
<laga> i'll upload it.
<laga> mario_limonciell: http://www.pastebin.ca/992524
<mario_limonciell> laga, hm
<mario_limonciell> what apache stuff is in the seeds right now, any?
<laga> mario_limonciell: i'll take a look, but we've got prefork and worker debs on the disk
<mario_limonciell> laga, i'm not sure that information is very complete to the true problem
<mario_limonciell> apache2-mpm isn't even in apt these days
<laga> yes.
<mario_limonciell> is it perhaps really freaking out at
<mario_limonciell> #
<mario_limonciell> Apr 21 21:38:44 in-target: E:
<mario_limonciell> #
<mario_limonciell> Apr 21 21:38:44 in-target: Couldn't find package language-pack-en
<laga> and i think the meta package itself installs w/o a problem
<mario_limonciell> oops sorry flood.
<laga> mario_limonciell: the frontend task works
<mario_limonciell> so tasksel oddities then
<laga> the seeds for ship lists apache2-mpm-worker
<mario_limonciell> take a look at how ubuntu server gets around this maybe for their apache task
<laga> which provides apache2-mpm
<cjwatson> mario_limonciell: that language-pack-en error shouldn't matter
<cjwatson> laga: what task is trying to be installed here?
<laga> cjwatson: mythtv-backend-master
<laga> i wonder if http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.hardy/revision?start_revid=adconrad%400c3.net-20060914004830-b39703af5ab366e7&filter_file_id=lampserver-20060725122202-f0300b6c185376b6 might be related?
<cjwatson> possible, but what's trying to install apache anyway?
 * cjwatson pokes at germinate output
<laga> cjwatson: mythweb most likely
<mario_limonciell> mythweb comes in as a recommend
<mario_limonciell> which depends on apache probably
<cjwatson> ah, recommends: mythweb
<cjwatson> yeah
<cjwatson> apache2-mpm-prefork    | apache2        | libapache2-mod-php5                 | Ubuntu Core Developers <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com> |          229690 |             504
<cjwatson> apache2-mpm-worker     | apache2        | apache2                             | Ubuntu Core Developers <ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com> |          233498 |             512
<cjwatson> libapache2-mod-php5 explicitly only works with prefork or itk
<cjwatson> I suspect a similar seed workaround will work, but am checking
<laga> yes, i can see these debs on the disk
<cjwatson> laga: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7707/ does the right thing
<laga> cjwatson: your ability to make things work by adding a simple line continues to amaze me.
<laga> thanks
<jdong> soren: poke on bug 192605; the connection.py patch solves the bug for me and is bitesized. Probably not release critical but still good to have for 8.04.x
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 192605 in virt-manager "virt-manager does not detect bridge br0" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192605
<cjwatson> laga: so much more efficient that way. :)
<soren> jdong: Yeah.. What I completely fail to grasp is why it works for me without the patch.
<jdong> soren: odd :-/
<soren> Quite.
<jdong> other than that one anomaly, libvirt/virt-manager has treated me quite well. I am impressed
<laga> jdong: just wondering - can you enable KVM after creating a qemu VM in virt-manager? i couldn't find a button for that
<jdong> soren: is there any reason why the virt-manager GUI doesn't offer a way to connect to qemu:///system rather than qemu:///user?
<jdong> laga: I don't see a GUI button for that either
<jdong> laga: that's probably still a matter of editing the .xml file
<laga> also, the network dialog was greyed out for me, but i didn't RTFM.
<laga> a nice piece of software, though.
<soren> jdong: No particular reason, no.
<jdong> laga: you needed to start virt-manager -c qemu:///system
<jdong> laga: by default it starts ///user, which can't config networking
<jdong> laga: it's not in TFM either.... :)
<jdong> hence the question I just posed :)
<laga> oh. nice.
<jdong> yeah, a bit of suffering in the UI dept
<laga> and in the FM dept ;)
<cjwatson> laga: would you mind also applying http://paste.ubuntu.com/7712/ for me? In the course of fixing bug 218604, I'm trying to get rid of the cdimage hack I installed for mythbuntu, and this gives it enough metadata to know that it needs to suck everything in desktop into the outer tasks
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 218604 in tasksel "networkless expert install offers tasks which aren't on the CD" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218604
<ogra> cjwatson, he just said goodnight in #ltsp
<cjwatson> bugger
<cjwatson> mario_limonciell: can you help with the above?
<cjwatson> I can maintain the code but would rather not
<mario_limonciell> cjwatson, yeah i can do that
<mario_limonciell> cjwatson, okay it's committed
<jdong> lol bug or feature: gnome-terminal allows detaching a tab from a window with a single tab
<jdong> in which case it just closes the current window and makes a new one with the same session attached to it.
<SEJeff> jdong, How did you pull that one off?
<jdong> SEJeff: tabs->detach tab
<SEJeff> jdong, Nice. probably worth filing an upstream RFE to fix
<mario_limonciell> whoops jdong.  Looks like reproducing your bug took my ssh session that connects me to IRC w/ it :)
<cjwatson> mario_limonciell: great, thanks
<cjwatson> I'll prod the cdimage code to match as soon as I've tested it
<mario_limonciell> cjwatson, this won't break the disks in tonight's build though right?
<mario_limonciell> oh.  okay.
<cjwatson> I'm hoping I'll get it committed in the next six hours, yes :)
#ubuntu-devel 2008-04-22
<asac> -
<fta> I still have openoffice.org-hyphenation-en-us held back by apt, is that a known bug ?
<fta> and dist-upgrade wants to remove the lang packs: The following packages will be REMOVED:
<fta>   language-support-en language-support-fr language-support-writing-en language-support-writing-fr mozilla-firefox-locale-en-gb mozilla-firefox-locale-fr-fr
<fta> calc: i have problem with openoffice.org-hyphenation-en-us
<fta> <fta> I still have openoffice.org-hyphenation-en-us held back by apt, is that a known bug ?
<fta> <fta> and dist-upgrade wants to remove the lang packs: The following packages will be REMOVED:
<fta> <fta>   language-support-en language-support-fr language-support-writing-en language-support-writing-fr mozilla-firefox-locale-en-gb mozilla-firefox-locale-fr-fr
<calc> fta: hold on a second let me see
<slangasek> there was a buggy version of a language pack earlier which depended on OOo-hyphenation-en-us but shouldn't have
<fta> I have 2.3.1-1ubuntu2, apt wants me to install 2.3.1-2ubuntu1
<slangasek> try apt-get install language-support-en ?
<fta> language-support-en is already the newest version.
<calc> slangasek: it should work at this point regardless
<calc> ooo-hyphenation-en-us 2.3.1-2ubuntu1 replaces openoffice.org-hyphenation (<< 0.3)
<calc> and openoffice.org-hyphenation is at 0.3 now in hardy
<slangasek> er, what
<slangasek> why is that a versioned replaces?!
<calc> is that wrong?
<slangasek> yes
<calc> openoffice.org-hyphenation no longer ships en-us
<slangasek> since when?
<calc> since apr 8
<slangasek> ... and hyphen is now in main, gar
<calc> hyphen should be being used by OOo already but it had a bug so i had to drop it again :(
<slangasek> why were people futzing around with this post-beta?
<slangasek> ok, I can't account for dist-upgrade's behavior then
<slangasek> that also means that language-support-writing-en is broken again, because I told ArneGoetje to back out the dependency on the universe package. :P
<calc> fta: are you upgrading to current hardy or to beta or something?
<calc> slangasek: er oops, sorry about that
<fta> i've been using hardy since day 1
<slangasek> only to have the package move to main, and the OOo package lose the contents, without anyone telling the RM.
<calc> slangasek: you commented on the change at the time from what i recall
<calc> slangasek: i don't remember what the comment was though since i was in the process of packing for prague at the time
<calc> fta: can you use the problem resolver to see what it is holding it back?
 * calc doesn't remember the argument to make that work though
<slangasek> er, yes; I commented saying that OOo shouldn't be changed
<calc> slangasek: oh, i see :( the bug was still set target for hardy to be fixed, which was i did it
<fta> i have openoffice.org-hyphenation 0.2 and openoffice.org-hyphenation-en-us Replaces openoffice.org-hyphenation (<< 0.3)
<fta> (since 2.3.1-2ubuntu1)
<calc> slangasek: that should work right?
<fta> or at least post 2.3.1-1ubuntu2
<slangasek> calc: the replaces should work, yes; like I said, given what I see now in the archive I can't account for the upgrade problem in question
<calc> fta: both openoffice.org-hyphenation 0.3 and openoffice.org-hyphenation-en-us 2.3.1-2ubuntu1 exist in hardy
<calc> fta: do you have anything set to hold?
<calc> fta: er manually set to hold that is
<mario_limonciell> FWIW, i always see an openoffice.org-hyphenation removed in /var/log/installer/syslog with current DVD releases no matter how many or which languages are picked for install
<fta> hm, it's in rc state. i guess that's why. seems it got removed partially before.
<fta> ok, fixed
<calc> mario_limonciell: not sure why that would be happening
<mario_limonciell> calc, yeah i didn't want to start pointing fingers until i knew why it was happening too
<calc> i'm downloading todays image right now so i can take a look
<calc> well the cd version anyway
<mario_limonciell> i've not verified it happens in the CD image
<mario_limonciell> i don't know that it is preinstall in that livefs
<calc> ah
<calc> my bandwidth is too low to download a DVD in any decent amount of time
<mario_limonciell> calc, well comparing the manifest from the two, it looks like -hyphenation is installed on both, but the DVD ends up with a whole bunch more localized variants of it too
<cjwatson> it would, the point of the different DVD live filesystem is to have lots more localisation
<calc> wow amd64 desktop cd is within 2MB of oversize
<calc> thats a tight fit, heh
<slangasek> Amaranth: doesn't look like anything's happened with bug #118936 since the last time we talked...
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 118936 in alacarte "Alacarte does not recover deleted menu items" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/118936
<mathiaz> hmm... I've just experienced the "shudown the system" when the batery is critically low - I got the warning the message saying that the system is about to shutdown if the AC is not reconnected soon. I reconnected the AC power cable (took around 5 secs), but the system had already started to shutdown.
<jdong> Reconnect power in 5.....4.....
<mathiaz> So how long do I have to reconnect my power cable before it starts to shutdown ?
<mathiaz> I thought I was quick enough
<ogra> mathiaz, gconf-editor, have a look at /apps/gnome-power-manager/thresholds
<xtknight> is there a good way to detect whether a volume is in fstab or whether hal mounted it?  like some hal property?
<ogra> it seems to default to shut down at 2%
<xtknight> i have the uuid of the hal disk
<jdong> xtknight: /media/.hal-mtab?
<xtknight> jdong, oh that's great. thx
<mathiaz> ogra: right - and the critical percentage is 3%
<mathiaz> ogra: seems that the difference was too small in my case
<mathiaz> ogra: however use_time_for_policy is set to True
<xtknight> jdong,  well there's a problem where hal mounts the device in the order the user invokes each device instead of by any consistent method.  therefore when the user goes to a hal disk and references it, he gets disk sometimes, disk-1 sometimes, disk-2, and so on.  that's bad when you're making a music playlist.  is this somehow being dealt with, or??
<jdong> xtknight: I presume by labeling the disk in question
<jdong> that would be the best solution IMO
<xtknight> jdong, how is this done?
<jdong> disklabel
<jdong> err what am I saying
<jdong> that's BSD :D
<xtknight> i did set-property volume.label but it wipes when i reboot.  additionally Rename is not enabled in nautilus
<xtknight> needs to go in preferences.fdi doesnt it?
<jdong> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RenameUSBDrive
<jdong> for FAT32 that's mtools
<xtknight> ah so hal actually uses the filesystem label.  i did not know that
<jdong> right, AFAICT it uses the filesystem label unless there is none
<jdong> at which point it defaults to silly generic names
 * ScottK notes that gnome-games is depwait and someone might want to fix that that cares about Gnome.
<ScottK> soren: We're good now.
 * soren declares bed time
<ScottK> mjg59: Was there an approval by motu-release for your moblin-image-creator upload?  I can't seem to find it.
<calc> the last hardy OOo upload is now accepted
 * calc isn't sure that the update of ubuntuforums was an improvement
<calc> they got rid of the search in the top right, and made user cp into a link instead of a menu
<calc> and no home link anymore
<calc> ah i see the faq they are still in progress for most of it
<TheMuso> Could anybody running Ubuntu on any architecture please try and run onboard for me, and if you have a live CD handy, please boot that, Press F5, ahd choose the on-screen keyboard option, and let me know what happens for all tests?
<TheMuso> bug 220475 if anyone has comments.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220475 in onboard "Onboard segfaults on Ubuntu Hardy" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220475
<tedg> TheMuso: I have a Kubuntu Desktop CD and the only F5 options I have is "High Contrast", "Magnifier" and "Keyboard Modifiers".  I don't see an onscreen keyboard.
<TheMuso> tedg: Thats because its only on Ubuntu.
<TheMuso> As I said, running Ubuntu.
<tedg> Ah, I figured they'd be the same in that regard.
<mathiaz> ScottK: what is used in Kubuntu to share directories via samba ?
<jdong> zul: thanks for the advice on using kvm. It's working beautifully; and with libvirt it's working better than anything I've ever used for virtualization
<ScottK> mathiaz: No idea.  I don't use samba.  Sorry.
<ScottK> mathiaz: Lots of people in #kubuntu-devel that might be able to tell you.
<mathiaz> ScottK: I'm looking at bug 158341
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 158341 in samba "Samba is still a pain in kubuntu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/158341
<ScottK> OK.  I'd suggest asking in #kubuntu-devel.
<mathiaz> ScottK: I would like to reassign the bug to kubuntu as this is an integration problem with it.
<mathiaz> ScottK: ok - Thanks.
<calc> how big does the swap partition have to be to be able to hibernate?
<calc> does it need to be same size as ram, more?
<jdong> calc: 2x RAM in worst case scenario
<jdong> calc: usually same size you can get away with it
<calc> it compresses when hibernating right?
<jdong> calc: I'm not sure if our default hibernation algorithm does
<calc> oh ok
<jdong> uswsusp does, and so does tuxonice (not in Ubuntu)
<calc> i'll just leave it at same size
 * Hobbsee wonders why the update-manager-core upload wants to remove ubuntu-desktop update-manager & update-notifier
<jdong> yeah same size is usually safe
<calc> i have 4GB ram so was wondering ;)
<calc> trying to see if i could get away with much less, but it sounds like it would be good to keep it at the same amount
<jdong> calc: the hibernator nukes your cache so estimate how much RAM is actually being used by apps
<jdong> calc: I'd guess 3-4GB would be enough
<calc> ah ok :)
<Fujitsu> But writing out cache to disk makes so much sense!
<calc> so yea same size should definitely be fine then
<jdong> Fujitsu: actually IMO it does
<calc> i rarely use anywhere near 4GB without cache
<jdong> Fujitsu: it makes the right-after-restore first 5 minutes of usage much less painful
<Fujitsu> Hmmm, I guess.
<jdong> Fujitsu: and often times that's the most important usecase
<jdong> Fujitsu: when I hibernated I used to patch tuxonice just because it writes out the cache too
<jdong> Fujitsu: on resume, boom the system is ready to go. With Ubuntu even the unlock screen dialog takes a bloody 10-20 seconds to appear properly
<jdong> perhaps that's been improved since 2 releases ago
<calc> i think windows must blow away cache too, since iirc it takes a long time to resume, heh
<jdong> calc: some windows services (a lot) use the suspend hook to mean shutdown for some retarded reason
<jdong> i.e. half the bootup services actually restart across a resume
<calc> oh wow
<calc> no wonder its slow
<jdong> calc: yeah, it's amazing how stupid software vendors could be
<jdong> calc: I've seen some demos of "proper" Windows XP boxes and those things go into suspend in 2 seconds and come out before you can get the lid back up
<jdong> of course in the real world nobody makes ideal Windows boxes either
<calc> or proper software to run on it
<calc> a windows box with no 3rd party crap on it might be pretty decent ;)
<Hobbsee> apparently do-release-upgrade doesn't like a ctrl+C
<fabbione> kees: ping?
<Hobbsee> and damn it, i'd appreciate if the machine i'm using to upgrade another one doesn't crash mid-upgrade!
<fabbione> hmm i guess he is asleep now
<Fujitsu> fabbione: I last saw him 70 minutes ago.
<RAOF> Hobbsee: Screen is _fun_.
<Hobbsee> RAOF: looks like it's in screen
<RAOF> Hobbsee: Yay for crashes/disconnects not killing upgrades, then.
<Hobbsee> hehe, indeed!
<Hobbsee> RAOF: even more yay, though
<Hobbsee> RAOF: [37%] 3387kB/s 21s
<RAOF> Hobbsee: _Nice_.  Where's that mirror, so I can soak all its bandwidth up?
<Hobbsee> RAOF: it's the us.archive.ubuntu.com mirror
<Hobbsee> the machine itself is in california.
<RAOF> Right.  I was going to ask whether you were home :)
<Hobbsee> RAOF: heh
<emgent> hello people
<GBGames> I just learned that Ubuntu's implementation of gcc/g++ is using SSP. Would this prevent using -fno-stack-protector from working? My binary is showing a dependency on GLIBC_2.4
<GBGames> I learned about this SSP thing when I discovered that my Debian system builds the binary without a GLIBC_2.4 dependency.
<Fujitsu> GBGames: -fno-stack-protector is only useful if SSP is on..
<GBGames> Fujitsu: How do I determine if it is?
<slangasek> SSP has nothing to do with glibc symbol versions; do you have some reason to think that SSP is a problem for your binary?
<Hobbsee> slangasek: are you aware that ubuntu-desktop is no longer isntallable?
<GBGames> slangasek: No, I only know that between my Debian system and my Ubuntu system, the Debian gcc/g++ seems to obey me when I use -fno-stack-protector, but the Ubuntu gcc/g++ seems to ignore it and include GLIBC_2.4 dependencies in my project's binary.
<GBGames> And in my searching, I found https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GccSsp
<slangasek> Hobbsee: was just seeing that, yes
<Hobbsee> slangasek: good, just checking
<slangasek> GBGames: er, GLIBC_2.4 has *nothing* to do with SSP.  How have you determined that Ubuntu gcc is ignoring -fno-stack-protector?
<slangasek> Hobbsee: ah, transient issue with update-manager arch: all/any package skew, AFAICS on amd64
<GBGames> slangasek: When the same project using the same build scripts is building differently on the two systems, and I double-checked that my project didn't have some missing flags or anything, I figured that somehow Ubuntu's gcc/g++ is doing something strange. And sure enough, I find this page that explains that the implementation is different from Debian's.
<Hobbsee> slangasek: i see it on i386.
<slangasek> Hobbsee: what does apt-get say is the broken dependency on i386?
<GBGames> If it isn't ssp, then it must be something else, but I am still stuck with not knowing why it won't build the way I expect it.
 * Hobbsee looks
<slangasek> GBGames: "building differently" how?  Just the GLIBC_2.4 references?
<GBGames> slangasek: Yes.
<slangasek> GBGames: that's not a bug, it's different because Debian and Ubuntu have different versions of glibc.
<GBGames> So it isn't a bug that -fno-stack-protector isn't doing something about removing the stack protection?
<slangasek> *GLIBC_2.4 has nothing to do with stack protection*.
<GBGames> slangasek: the dependency on it does, yes.
<Hobbsee> slangasek: yeah, might be archive skew.  seems my cache doesn't know about update-manager .23 yet
<GBGames> $ objdump -x source/ld11-minimalist.bin  | grep GLIBC_2\.4
<GBGames>     0x0d696914 0x00 10 GLIBC_2.4
<GBGames> 00000000       F *UND*  00000046              __stack_chk_fail@@GLIBC_2.4
<calc> slangasek: it appears he is claiming the GLIBC_2.4 references are about stack protection in particular
<calc> at least if i understand what the two of you are talking about :)
<GBGames> When I use -fno-stack-protector, it does not use stack checking, and since it doesn't need it, it doesn't depend on GLIBC_2.4.
<GBGames> Except on Ubuntu, it seems.
<slangasek> GBGames: right, you didn't mention that the symbol in question was __stack_chk_fail ... I can see where that might have something to do with stack protection, yes.
<GBGames> heh
<slangasek> Hobbsee: I think it's more than archive skew; in an i386 chroot, I see: Package update-manager is not available, but is referred to by another package.
<slangasek> which isn't what it should show :/
<calc> so having the GLIBC_2.4 in there at all isn't a bug but that it is about stack protection in particular is a probably a bug
<Hobbsee> slangasek: looks to be a .24 upload in unapproved, too?
<calc> doko will probably be awake in another hour or so
<GBGames> calc: Well, as that is the only reason why glibc_2.4 is there, it is incidental that it shouldn't depend on 2.4, but yes, stack protection shouldn't be in there when I tell it not to use it.
<Mithrandir> I don't think changing the toolchain at this point is particularly wise.
<slangasek> Hobbsee: mm, I'll look at it shortly then; though the problem I'm seeing on i386 is definitely some sort of archive breakage
<calc> doesn't he manage both debian and ubuntu toolchain (if so how did this bug only affect ubuntu)?
<Hobbsee> slangasek: yes...
<slangasek> because update-manager shouldn't have disappeared from the Packages file
<slangasek> calc: if SSP isn't enabled in Debian, then that would fit
<calc> Mithrandir: perhaps but it probably should be noted in release notes or somewhere else that stack protector can't be disabled
<GBGames> calc: Ubuntu has differing implementations from Debian.
<slangasek> (yes, he maintains both, but that doesn't mean they're identical by any means)
<calc> slangasek: ah ok :)
<ogra> *yawn*
<dholbach> good morning
<Fujitsu> Hey dholbach.
 * ogra tickles dholbach
<dholbach> hi ogra, hi Fujitsu
<dholbach> how are you guys doing?
<ogra> tired
<Hobbsee> good morning
<dholbach> hi Hobbsee
<emgent> hi dholbach Hobbsee
<dholbach> hi emgent
<Fujitsu> I'm currently hacking some horrible old PHP at work, but other than that I'm not bad.
<GBGames> slangasek: What's strange is that it builds my custom versions of libraries correctly. I just checked without -fno-stack-protector,  and all of the custom libs now have the symbol and 2.4 dependency.
<emgent> php is always bad :)
<Fujitsu> emgent: Yes, but this code is particularly bad.
<emgent> good luck ;)
<Fujitsu> It's not what I mainly work on, fortunately.
<GBGames> slangasek: http://rafb.net/p/cpNa2S77.html If this helps. I'll paste my regular binaries build script, too.
<GBGames> http://rafb.net/p/1OYEvr27.html <-- my project's build script
<slangasek> GBGames: the comments at the top of that first one claim that if you use -fno-stack-protector, you don't get the reference to __stack_chk_fail ?
<GBGames> slangasek: For the libraries I built, right.
<slangasek> so the problem is when you build an executable?
<GBGames> slangasek: Yes,  which leads me to believe it might be a problem with my build script, but still specifically when run on Ubuntu.
<GBGames> Since it runs as expected on Debian.
<calc> we do PIE by default on executables among other things, right?
<slangasek> on what version of Debian?
<GBGames> slangasek: Testing, although it isn't necessarily up to date, but it should be updated within the last month.
<slangasek> ok - I was going to say, Debian etch shipped with glibc 2.3.6, so that would be its own explanation ;)
<GBGames> slangasek: Oh, I bet I know what it is. Since I tell it to link statically with, and libgcc is likely built with stack protector on, the binary is going to have it included.
<GBGames> Well, taking out the static link flag doesn't change anything, so maybe not.
<GBGames> In any case, it looks like I'll need to dig down into this issue. Thanks for your help!
<slangasek> sure, sorry I wasn't of more help really
<calc> slangasek: do you happen to know if the save /home feature of the installer is working yet?
<slangasek> don't know anything about that, sorry
<calc> ok
<calc> cjwatson: do you happen to know, i forgot the name of the feature
<cjwatson> calc: ubiquity-preserve-home; should be, yes, just don't check the format checkbox for the partition whose /home you want to keep
<cjwatson> (or for /home itself if that's the one you're selecting)
<calc> cjwatson: ah ok
<calc> cjwatson: and it knows to automatically delete everything else?
<cjwatson> that's right
<calc> cool :)
 * calc will backup home to be safe and then test it out
<cjwatson> (of course backups always a good idea, but ...)
<cjwatson> snap
<calc> btw is there anything special needed to format a ext3 fs to do the lazy atime thing, or just a mount option?
<pitti> Good morning
<Fujitsu> calc: Just mount with relatime.
<pitti> what does that do anyway? writing relative atimes doesn't sound much more efficient than writing absolute ones?
<slangasek> pitti: it reduces the number of disk writes by only writing out atimes when it "matters"
<StevenK> Morning pitti
<Fujitsu> ie. only the first after the mtime changes?
<pitti> slangasek: ah, so it still writes absolute atime stamps, but less often
<slangasek> documented in mount(8), fwiw
<slangasek> (more clearly than I can explain :)
<calc> Fujitsu: ok
<calc> iirc i read ubuntu does that by default now
<slangasek> it sets it by default in the installer
<calc> ok
<slangasek> I don't know what happens with mounts of removable media
<calc> relatime is supposed to help with allowing drive to spin down more also (iirc)
<slangasek> that's one of the effects, yes
<calc> probably speeds up disk access a bit as well since it isn't always writing out data
<pitti> lamont: hm, why does postfix debdonf-asks me about the configuration on every upgrade?
<GBGames> slangasek: I just checked a different project. It builds fine. I guess something strange is happening with my current project, but I'm still not sure why it only manifests when I build on Ubuntu. In any case, I believe it is a project-specific issue.
<slangasek> GBGames: ah, well, good luck then :)
<slangasek> Hobbsee: fwiw, I've accepted update-manager from unapproved; with luck that will kick some sense into the archive, without luck we'll have to go bug-hunting in LP
<Hobbsee> slangasek: indeed.
<calc> slangasek: has a new gnome-app-install been uploaded lately?
 * calc hopes we still get openoffice.org metapackage in gai before release
<GBGames> The build scripts are almost the same. The other project uses an extra library, but otherwise it uses all of the same flags. I think I'll sleep on it. Thanks again!
 * calc bbiab reinstalling laptop
<slangasek> calc: none in the queue, no
<pitti> calc, slangasek: yesterday I accepted some app-install-data-ubuntu which fixed OO.o desktop files
<dholbach> for the teams that do team reports: it's team report collection time again!
<Hobbsee> oh noes, team reports.
 * Hobbsee instantly steps down from all teams she's a part of
<Fujitsu> I should probably put more for mine than `NEED MOAR PEOPLE'
<bigon> infinity: FYI openhackware has been synced
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: hah
<RAOF> Fujitsu: Need moar people _and_ ponies?
<Fujitsu> RAOF: Magically security ponies.
<Fujitsu> *Magical
<slangasek> Hobbsee: seems to have already fixed itself on my mirror, without even getting the newer version in
<Hobbsee> ooh, magic ponies...
<slangasek> hmmmm
<slangasek> actually, Packages.bz2 is correct, and Packages.gz is still wrong, on drescher
<slangasek> well, let's see what the next publisher run brings
<kees> security ponies would rock!  avenging security unicorn
<emgent> kees, jdstrand: saw http://cansecwest.com/post/2008-03-20.21:33:00.CanSecWest_PWN2OWN_2008 ?
<emgent> only ubuntu not owned in this contest.
<Amaranth> emgent: of course that's only because the guy that exploited flash chose to do it on the vista laptop instead of the ubuntu laptop
<emgent> i dont know if in ubuntu laptop there was flash
<emgent> possible gnash ? :)
<RAOF> No, Adobe.  Because gnash doesn't work the same :)
<RAOF> Probably doesn't have the same security bugs, but doesn't implement swfv9, and is incomplete.  So a bit unfair.
<jdong> emgent: ubuntu would've been just as vulnerable.
<jdong> emgent: Vista actually had a better chance of fending off these attacks because the browser runs in a RBAC/MDAC jail
<jdong> just Adobe for some retarded reason implemented a broker that could escape the jail.
<jdong> oh I'm sorry. "Tunnel priviledged permissions through"
<jdong> don't sue me Adobe.
<emgent> hehe :)
<jdong> call me crazy, but I run Firefox inside Apparmor
<jdong> if anything is going to compromise me, it'd be my browser
<Hobbsee> jdong: we already knew you were on crack.
<Hobbsee> but i like that idea
<emgent> jdong: +1
<Mithrandir> why not inside a VM on a different host than the one you have your data on?
<jdong> Mithrandir: because until Hardy's libvirt stuff I never really found a VM package I liked
<jdong> oh wait, you're mocking my paranoia
<jdong> :)
<Mithrandir> no, I'm not
<jdong> but that would be my serious answer
<jdong> it's not a bad idea at all
<Mithrandir> I'm just saying that if you really think your browser is that insecure, put it in a completely separate context.
<Mithrandir> or just use a different machine for it.
<jdong> indeed that's another option
<Mithrandir> preferably on a separate physical network (or at least different VLAN or if you can't do that, firewalled off from the rest of your network).
<jdong_> well that's what *this* box intends on being in the future :)
<jdong> I don't distrust my browser that much. It's primarily libflashplugin I'm concerned about, nosing around... not to mention the number of extensions I'm using has got to be unhealthy
<Mithrandir> don't have flash in your primary browser, then.
<emgent> ...
<jdong> I really shouldn't
 * Mithrandir doesn't have flash in any of his browsers.
<jdong> and I really should separate my sensitive browser profile from my regular surfing browser too
<calc> pitti: cool :)
<mantiena> hi all
<GBGames> slangasek: I FIXED IT!
<GBGames> slangasek: LIBS            :=  -static-libgcc -L. -L${LIB_INSTALL_DIR}/lib $(shell ${LIB_INSTALL_DIR}/bin/sdl-config --libs) -lSDL_image -lSDL_mixer #-L/usr/X11R6/lib -lX11
<GBGames> See that "-L." ? I removed that. GLIBC_2.4 no more.
<GBGames> What's strange is that it is in my other project, and that one builds just fine. Weird.
<GBGames> But it is now 3:30AM, and I need to go to sleep.
<tkamppeter> Anyone from the MOTU release team around?
<Hobbsee> tkamppeter: nope
<Hobbsee> we're all dead.
<tkamppeter> Anyone from the MOTU release team around?
<Hobbsee> tkamppeter: context would help, though.
<tkamppeter> Hobbsee, I need a freeze exception for multiverse, bug 219509
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 219509 in brother-cups-wrapper-laser1 "printing Din A4 format not working" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219509
<Amaranth> hahaha
<mjg59> ScottK: I haven't uploaded anything to Ubuntu since February
<mdz> soren: what's the latest thinking re: bug 217815?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 217815 in linux "Installation stalls randomly until a key is pressed" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/217815
<ogra> mdz, i had probs before with clocksource stuff (cmpc related though), it usually helps to drop tickless as well if experimenting with them by setting nohz=off
<soren> mdz: Well, I'm still in the rather odd situation that I'm having difficulty reproducing it.
<soren> mdz: So I'm relying on other people to provide me with testing results.
<tjaalton> any RM available?
<soren> mdz: If it turns out that notsc makes a significant difference, slangasek thought we might be able to squeeze the kernel patch through.
<mdz> soren: there's at least one report of it persisting with totsc
<mdz> soren: oh, but that's from the person on real hardware
<soren> mdz: Yeah. My gut feeling is still that it's the same problem, though.
<soren> mdz: kvm might just trigger it more often.
<seb128> hum, the hwtest update breaks the string freeze and translations for no good reason
<ogra> seb128, afaik cr3 was pointed to the docteam to ask for permission first by steve
<seb128> ogra: that was for the summary yes
<ogra> oh, there is more ?
<seb128> but "   * Fixed tooltip to be HIG compliant." seems not something worth breaking translations
<ogra> could be themeing as well
<ogra> i didnt look at the code :)
<norsetto> can an archive-admin pls. give back foptions?
<pitti> norsetto: archive admins can't, buildd admins can; given back
<norsetto> pitti: ah ok! thanks
<Fujitsu> It might not just be buildd-admins soon, which will be good.
 * norsetto checks the buildd-admins list for future victims ...
<geser> Fujitsu: who else will be given the right for give-backs?
<Mithrandir> whoever can upload a package wouldn't be entirely unnatural
<Fujitsu> geser: There was a suggestion that component uploaders would have rights over builds for their own component.
<Fujitsu> Suggestion from a Soyuz dev, that is.
<geser> sounds really interesting
<Mithrandir> since you can worst case just upload the same thing again with a bumped version which is like a give-back, except it takes more time and resources.
<Fujitsu> That was the rationale.
<bisho> Hi. I would like to ask for a stable release update for bug 174805
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 174805 in apache2 "[gutsy] graceful-stop fails when apache listens on more than one socket" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174805
<mok0> Mithrandir: I'd like to request a rebuild of  fnonlinear, fregression and funitroots
<bisho> I'm having a lot of problems on a high traffic production web server because of this bug
<pitti> mok0: kicked
<pitti> Mithrandir: ^
<mok0> pitti: thanks
<Mithrandir> pitti: cheers
<Silicium> wie heist das inittab equal unter Ubuntu?
<Nafallo> !de
<ubotu> Deutschsprachige Hilfe fuer Probleme mit Ubuntu, Kubuntu und Edubuntu finden Sie in den Kanaelen #ubuntu-de, #kubuntu-de, #xubuntu-de und #edubuntu-de
<Silicium> ups
<Silicium> sorry wrong channel
<Keybuk> WARNING: The following packages cannot be authenticated!
<Keybuk>   sloccount
<Keybuk> MVO!!!!!!
<Silicium> irssi failure :S
<Silicium> pitti: das andere is im uebrigen kein bug
<Silicium> pitti: das procsys is gemounted
<Silicium> das problem was ausschliesslich die locales
<pitti> Silicium: you really want to send me /queries :)
<Silicium> pitti: that was all i want to say :)
<pitti> Silicium: ah, good to know; so I can stop worrying about the /proc issue; thanks!
<ln-> isn't it supposed to be "heiÃt/heisst" with two 's', or is it some new thing to write it with one?
<cjwatson> Fujitsu: I'm not convinced, too many people tend to bang on retry
<mvo> Keybuk: URGH :(
<Keybuk> mvo: it seems to do that a lot more for me now
<Keybuk> nearly always the first time I use it
<mvo> Keybuk: oh? since you went to hardy?
<Keybuk> yeah
<mvo> it was supposed to make things better :/
<Fujitsu> cjwatson: We should be able to trust MOTU to not do stupid things.
<Fujitsu> cjwatson: And people can upload build1 anyway.
<Fujitsu> If people do bang on retry when they shouldn't, educate them. With something nice and spiky.
<mvo> Keybuk: if it happens a lot for you, could I sent you some debug stuff that you could add? does it give you start after the nightly apt-get update cron job? is that machine behind a proxy ?
<Keybuk> it does often do it after an apt-get cron run, yes
<Keybuk> it's a laptop, rarely behind a proxy, often disconnected
<pitti> ln-: yes, you are right
<mvo> ok
<ogra> ln-, if you often use non german keyboards you start to type like that :)
<mvo> Keybuk: I look into it after lunch, ok?
<Keybuk> ok
<cjwatson> Fujitsu: retrying builds chews up a lot of resources without much in the way of logs, and evidence shows that people don't check properly before requesting give-backs
<cjwatson> Fujitsu: I do think access should be wider than it is right now, but I'm not convinced about "all uploaders" as the right model
<Fujitsu> cjwatson: Shall I request that we restrict uploaders to a subset of the ... uploaders, then?
<Fujitsu> Uploading does everything a giveback does, other than erasing the old build logs (which is surely a bug anyway), and is doable by all.
<pitti> Fujitsu: well, it leaves more traces, and takes more effort, so people might be more inclined to try three pointless give-backs in a row
<pitti> but if that's really going to become a problem, we can always restrict it again
<pitti> access will be controlled with an LP team, so that's easy to adjust
<Fujitsu> I thought the intention was to do away with the idea of new celebrities. But I may have interpreted Julian incorrectly.
<munckfish> cjwatson: got a sec to discuss PS3?
<pitti> Fujitsu: I don't know the details either
<Fujitsu> It'd be nice if the specs were public, or at least the user-visible aspects of them...
<munckfish> Hi folks is there anything specific that needs to be done to *not* release a CD for a particular architecture/port?
<Fujitsu> cjwatson: Restricting givebacks seems to be a very strange workaround to the issue of not having logs. Introducing logging is surely a much better idea, if it is that necessary.
<YokoZar> will apt-url do an apt-get update before installing a package?
<munckfish> Ok sorry to make noise, I think I should redirect my question to #ubuntu-release
<cjwatson> Fujitsu: it's not *lack* of logs, it's just that buildd retries are not subject to freezes (and I don't think they should be) and it's possible to seriously tie up buildds during freezes if you're incautious. I really do think it should be a little more restricted.
<cjwatson> munckfish: yep
<munckfish> cjwatson: hi
<munckfish> sorry I'm being noisy here today
<munckfish> I moved my real question to ubuntu-release
<munckfish> I don't know if you've been following
<munckfish> along but there are loads of bugs for hardy/ps3
<cjwatson> I saw, yeah
<munckfish> I think we should target 8.04.1
<YokoZar> cjwatson: does PPA usage tie up the buildds?
<Fujitsu> cjwatson: Hmm, good point.
<cjwatson> you only need to worry about the release-critical ones, not just random bugs; the X thing is still serious though
<cjwatson> YokoZar: at the moment they're on different buildds
<cjwatson> Fujitsu: (I'm also talking with Julian a bit; I do think some of MOTU should be able to give things back)
<Fujitsu> I think we should be able to trust people to be sane, but who knows if we actually can...
<cjwatson> Fujitsu: so far, empirically, give-back requests often haven't been :(
<Fujitsu> During normal development, it makes approximately no sense to restrict it. But freezes are another matter, you are definitely right.
<elmo> is there a record of who gave a package back?
<elmo> from how I understand give backs, there probably isn't
<elmo> if not, that's something to take into consideration
<Fujitsu> IMO the current give-back mechanism is flawed, in that it erases all traces of the previous build.
<elmo> I agree
<elmo> and, err, sorry I just read scrollback, which I should have done first
<Lamego> my fonts on firefox fonts on hardy are horrible compared to gutsy, where should I start looking at ?
<Fujitsu> Perhaps a better definition of 'horrible' would be more useful.
<Lamego> let me upload some screenshots
<Lamego> horrible as hard to read, pixels to close to each other and less space between letters
<Lamego> erm. unable to resolve imageshack.us
<Fujitsu> If Soyuz opens up give-backs in 1.2.[45] and there are problems with abuse, it has at least 4 months before release crunch to have additional restrictions applied. I'm sure it can be managed in that time.
<Lamego> http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ubuntu710tf7.png <- Ubuntu 7.10 -> Looks good
<Lamego> http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ubuntu804xn5.png <- Ubuntu 8.04 - Looks bad
<Lamego> both using the live cd, max res, LCD 1680x1050
<Fujitsu> My insanity sensor censored those images.
<Lamego> insanity sensor :P ?
<Fujitsu> GetDeb fell afoul of it.
<Lamego> grumpf
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: should != do.
<Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Right, hence the 'should.'
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: i would'nt bet on it.  this is launchpad, with the required 6 months for any change.
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: particularly in the area of soyuz
<Hobbsee> with all due respect, of course.
<Hobbsee> there's just no way that it's likely to happen
<Fujitsu> It's not a big change, so I'm sure it could be done quickly.
<Lamego> for which package should I create the bug record ?
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: i have bugs for adding checkboxes still outstanding.  Dude, think again.
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: 1.2.4 will finally fix a buggy page forward, which was reported partway through gutsy development.
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: you can't assume things like that - i've learned.
<Fujitsu> I have at least some faith in the capability of the Soyuz team to fix important bugs in a fairly timely fashion.
<Hobbsee> Fujitsu: depends how you define important.
<Hobbsee> but yes, they do fix the omgtsif bugs reasonably quickly.
<ogra> seb128, bug 220564 for you for 8.04.1 :)
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220564 in nautilus "regression: unmount options in nautilus are shown on LTSP" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220564
<ogra> (patch attached)
<seb128> ogra: ok, thanks
<lamont> pitti: not sure
<lamont> (postfix debconf)
<YokoZar> Is there a list of the packages that will be on the DVD somewhere?
<pitti> YokoZar: easiest is to look on cdimage into the dvd/ directories; they should have .manifest and .list
<YokoZar> pitti: ACK!  Wine isn't listed!
<Fujitsu> Wine isn't in main.
<YokoZar> Well, no universe packages are, heh
<Fujitsu> Fortunately.
<YokoZar> I thought there was room on the DVDs to stuff popular universe packages in
<pitti> YokoZar: no, nowadays it doesn't even have all of main
<pitti> seb128: hm, no nautilus-wallpaper in unapproved
<Fujitsu> pitti: Why not? Nowadays main should easily fit, with no Xubuntu...
<pitti> hm, it's just 3.7 GB nowadays, so we could extend it a little indeed
<YokoZar> My main use case here is answering the regular emails I get from people asking how to install Wine without an internet connection.  I can't just point them to a deb file, since that doesn't install Wine's dependencies
<Fujitsu> Is that all of main?
<seb128> pitti: weird, I got a "Waiting for approval: nautilus-wallpaper 0.1-0ubuntu3 (source)" mail
<pitti> Fujitsu: no, we exclude some bits
<pitti> seb128: ah, someone apparenlty fixed it already
<YokoZar> By the way, according to popcon, about 1/3 of all our users have Wine installed ;)
<laga> superm1: grr, i didn't notice you already applied cjwatson's patch :)
<cjwatson> laga: I needed it fairly quickly in order to get cdimage changes done :)
<pitti> seb128: indeed, there we go
<cjwatson> YokoZar: for 8.10, I suspect wine should be in main, given the large usage base
<laga> cjwatson: sure, no problem.
<laga> cjwatson: any idea why there is no daily iso for today?
<cjwatson> laga: cronjobs disabled for release prep
<cjwatson> I'm sure it'll get built manually
<YokoZar> cjwatson: Wine 1.0 is coming out in 8.10 timeframe as well
<laga> too bad, i dashed home from uni to test it. i'll try again tonight
<cjwatson> certainly anything we're prepared to ship on the DVD we also need to be prepared to support as part of main
<cjwatson> goes with the territory
<YokoZar> ï»¿Is it too late for Hardy to just fill out the extra space on the DVDs with the most popular on popcon?
<cjwatson> yes
<YokoZar> Is everything in Main on the DVD at least?
<cjwatson> no
<cjwatson> (as pitti said)
<cjwatson> all of main doesn't fit on a DVD
<cjwatson> not even all of Ubuntu supported fits on a DVD, not by some distance
<YokoZar> So what's the 3.7 gigabytes?
<pitti> YokoZar: that's ubuntu + ubuntu supported
<pitti> YokoZar: e. g. there is a separate Kubuntu DVD
<pitti> we cannot even merge those
<cjwatson> the 3.7 gigabytes is everything up to the dvd seed
<cjwatson> *not* supported
<cjwatson> it's sa subset
<cjwatson> s/sa/a/
<Hobbsee> argh, i knew i didn't want to install ubuntu-desktop again
<YokoZar> Ahh ok.
<cjwatson> we used to put all of supported on the DVD, but it got far too painful
<cjwatson> we had to have all kinds of strange exclusions from supportedd
<Hobbsee> mvo: how can i install a package without installing it's recommends?
 * Mithrandir steals Hobbsee's '
<Hobbsee> Mithrandir: oy!
 * Hobbsee stomps on Mithrandir's feet, with her steel boots.
<cjwatson> --no-install-recomends
<cjwatson> er, --no-install-recommends
<cjwatson> or -o APT::Install-Recommends=false (synonymous)
 * Hobbsee doesn't seem to have that switch
<YokoZar> Speaking of ubuntu-desktop, synaptic should probably warn you when you remove it and update manager should check for it.  I had a user want to replace Evolution with Thunderbird and not realize this would totally break things when he upgraded to Hardy.
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: neither work for me :(
<cjwatson> the installer uses the latter
<james_w> Hobbsee: "-R" with aptitude should work
<cjwatson>         in-target sh -c "$config debconf-apt-progress --from $min --to $max --logstderr -- apt-get -o APT::Install-Recommends=false -q -y install 'language-pack-$lp'" || ret=$?
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: so sudo apt-get -o APT::Install-Recommends=false install ubuntu-desktop  should work?
<cjwatson> yeah
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: it certainly doesn't :-S
<mvo> YokoZar: right - update-manager (in release-upgrade mode at least) will make sure that ubuntu-desktop (or kubuntu-desktop etc) is installed on upgrade
<Hobbsee> james_w: no dice either.  :(
<mvo> YokoZar: so that should be taken care of :)
 * Hobbsee wonders why that spews lots of empty console output, too
<cjwatson> kernel bug
<Hobbsee> ah
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: hmm, isn't working for me either with kubuntu-desktop
<cjwatson> mvo: halp
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: good, so i'm not going mad.
<Hobbsee> well, not in this instance, anyway
<mvo> Hobbsee: give me a sec, I check the exact synatx
<hubuntu> is there a failure with booting in some configurations? The ISO from sunday is not booting (neither server or desktop editions)
<hubuntu> it stops at the menu, the only option that works is "Boot from first harddisk"
<cjwatson> hubuntu: what happens when you select the others?
<hubuntu> you can go around and make difgferent selections
<hubuntu> change language and stuff
<hubuntu> but nothing loads
<cjwatson> hubuntu: today's image is booting fine for me, FWIW
<hubuntu> nothing happens, not even the test
<hubuntu> I'm downloading that one now
<cjwatson> hubuntu: does it return keyboard control to you, or does it completely lock the system? Do you see anything interesting on the screen?
<hubuntu> cjwatson;: but I just got scared, because mine is booting in 3 computers but a friend (Invitado) is having the problem
<cjwatson> does it blank the screen, or leave the menu displayed?
<hubuntu> well, palichis
<hubuntu> :)
<hubuntu> leave the menu displayed
<hubuntu> nothing morethe CD seesm to start, but nothing else happens
<mvo> Hobbsee: hrm, the -o does not allow overwriting existing lists, you will have to move aside /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01ubuntu to get rid of apt::install-recommends-sections - please report this as a bug (I fix it right after the release)
<hubuntu> and you can still change options from the menu
<Hobbsee> cjwatson: is that going to affect your installer?
<hubuntu> reaklly weird, and 2 computers give the same error with server AND desktop ISOs
<hubuntu> one laptop and one desktop.. let's hope its just the image.. kep you updated
<hubuntu> keep
<ScottK> mjg59: Thanks.  Odd.  I'll poke at it some more then.  I thought it had been uploaded with your key.
<mjg59> ScottK: If it is, I'd be worried
<ScottK> I'll go look at it again.
<mjg59> ScottK: I'm not a member of ubuntu-dev or ubuntu-core-dev...
<ScottK> Even better.
<ScottK> mjg59: Apparently my cut an paste skills for the Ubuntu keyserver are very miserable.  Sorry for the disturbance.
<Hobbsee> ScottK: it's from a ppa, and has taken over a main package.  duh.
<ScottK> Heh.  Not this time.  I still not sure how I messed it up last night.
<slytherin> cjwatson: Any update on the 'OOo on ppc CD'? I am sure you are pretty busy at the moment, so in case you need any help let me know. I will try my best. :-)
<cjwatson> Hobbsee: well, in theory, but we wanted it to install recommends anyway
<cjwatson> 12:52 <cjwatson> any opinions on bug 164491? I've done the sums and it will fit, but I've missed my slot for updating ubuntu-meta
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 164491 in ubuntu-meta "[ppc] openoffice.org not present on alternate CD" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/164491
<cjwatson> 12:52 <cjwatson> perhaps it doesn't matter as simply updating the seeds will cause the tasks to be updated?
<cjwatson> slytherin: ^- from #ubuntu-release earlier today
<cjwatson> slytherin: I've committed the desktop seed change now, so the next ports CDs should have it, but I can't update ubuntu-meta now; shout if they don't behave properly on installation
<slytherin> cjwatson: Ok. I won't be trying installation. But I think I will dist-upgrade with --ignore-missing --no-download option to check if all the necessary packages are present.
<cjwatson> slytherin: dist-upgrade won't do it
<cjwatson> you'll need to apt-get install ubuntu-desktop^
<cjwatson> (note ^)
<cjwatson> and even that only after the next publisher run
<mvo> Keybuk: I can reproduce the problem in apt now I think, I'm looking into it now
<Keybuk> mvo: do you know what it is?
<mvo> not yet, but definitely triggerable without network
<slytherin> cjwatson: Ok fine. I assume next publisher run will be sometime tomorrow. I will report back. Thanks.
<slytherin> mvo: Which bug are you talking about?
<mvo> slytherin: authentication warnings when the nightly apt-get update cron job got run
<slytherin> mvo: ahh, as per my observation when there is no network, *Release.gpg files get deleted.
<ScottK> pitti: Do you have an opinion on Bug #205179 - How siginficant is postgis support for pg 8.3?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 205179 in postgis "postgresql-8.3-postgis not included in Hardy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/205179
<slytherin> if I have attached a debdiff to a bug related to dependencies and the package is in main, which team should I subscribe to the bug. ubuntu-main-sponsors or ubuntu-release?
<ScottK> What package?
<slytherin> ScottK: ant
<ScottK> I'd suggest u-m-s and they can ask ubuntu release if they think it's appropriate.
<slytherin> ScottK: Ok. I have already subscribed u-m-s, I will wait.
<dholbach> is hardy-alternate-amd64 20080422 OK to test or is there a new one to come?
<mvo> slytherin, Keybuk: I uploaded a fix into my PPA ("deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/mvo/ubuntu hardy main") and do another one for hardy (or hardy-proposed) now
<slytherin> mvo: I will check it after another hour and report back.
<mvo> slytherin: thanks
<Arby> mvo: what's the bug, I have some time for testing.
<slytherin> Arby: just read few line above. :-)
<mvo> Arby: bugfix apt from my PPA, some background is above
<Arby> the authentication warnings?
<mvo> yes
<Arby> is this just on a gutsy->hardy upgrade
<Arby> I can give that a spin
 * Arby pokes a VM into life
<slytherin> Arby: no, even simple upgrade. I think the bug is there from gutsy
<Arby> oh ok
<Arby> nothing special to trigger it?
<mvo> Arby: just unplug the network
<Arby> ok
<mvo> Arby: use hardy for testing please, the update is against hardy
<Arby> mvo: sure
<mvo> thanks :)
<pitti> ScottK: hm, haven't used it myself yet; I just know a few people who do
<pitti> ScottK: weird, I thought we synced postgis 8.3 ages ago, but apparently I mixed that up with another pg extension
<ScottK> pitti: I'd be inclined to sync it and hope for the best.  Thoughts?
<pitti> ScottK: debian bug 441797 sounds a bit bad, but we already have the affected version; other bugs look fine
<ubotu> Debian bug 441797 in postgresql-8.2-postgis "postgresql-8.2-postgis: upgrade to 1.3.1 make old databases unusable" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/441797
<pitti> ScottK: so yes, I'm fine with syncing
<ScottK> Thanks.
<pitti> ScottK: let me build it locally first and check whether it at least loads
<ScottK> OK.  Thanks.
<jeisenberg> hi there, I work for xcalibre - company behind Flexiscale.com.  We'd like to donate some virtual servers for Ubuntu dev work
<jeisenberg> who do I speak to?
<jeisenberg> well, chat to, I guess....
<jeisenberg> ah... ubuntu wiki says mdz: are you about?
<ScottK> If your interested in supporting community development work (not Canonical) there is also http://www.ubuntuwire.com/ that can always use additional resources.
 * jeisenberg is looking at linkz
<norsetto> we have ftbfs on hppa (lme4) and hppa, ia64 and sparc (tseries) that can be solved by giving back. Is it worth your time buildd-admins?
<pitti> ScottK: bug 205179 updated
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 205179 in postgis "postgresql-8.3-postgis not included in Hardy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/205179
<ScottK> Thanks.
<pitti> ScottK: I have the sync under my fingers now, just give the word
<ScottK> I need a 2nd ask.  Just asked.
<pitti> ah
<ScottK> pitti: Go for it.
 * pitti cranks, thanks
<kees> emgent, Amaranth, jdong_: re flash exploit on Ubuntu> while Mark Dowd is a genius, I think he might have had trouble with exploiting it under Linux.  From what I saw in his write-up, it sounds like ASLR would have applied a bit more under linux.  It's really not clear, though.
<kees> jdong_: and I hear ya about ff in AppArmor.  :P
<megabyte405> There.  All concerns with the AbiWord package have been addressed, hopefully that will do the trick now :)
<sistpoty|work> any archive-admin, jplease remove brother-cups-wrapper-laser1 from unapproved.. no release ack given yet, and the current package is undistributable (debian/copyright is wrong)
<sistpoty|work> meh, wrong channel
<sistpoty|work> tkamppeter: debian/copyright contains boiler template of lgpl, package is gpl, please fix this as well
 * Hobbsee waits for LP
<Hobbsee> sistpoty|work: rejected
<sistpoty|work> thanks Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> y/w
<tkamppeter> sistpoty, sorry did not see this, I have only looked at the minimum change to get the two buggs fixed and have assumed that all the rest is OK due to being in the repos for several weeks now.
<dholbach> hum.... somehow my 20080422-amd64-alternate oem-installation (in kvm) hangs - can somebody reproduce that?
<dholbach> evand, cjwatson: anything you need to help debug it?
<cjwatson> dholbach: at what stage?
<dholbach> cjwatson: installing packages
<cjwatson> dholbach: just at a progress bar?
<cjwatson> dholbach: press a key or move the mouse in the guest; that should shift it. This is a known (release-critical) kvm bug that soren is working on
<sistpoty|work> tkamppeter: also this sed in debian/rules and then executing the result... it feels a little bit like playing russion roulette. as far as I've seen, the scripts come with start/end markers for the ppds... maybe that might be a safer solution?
<dholbach> cjwatson: the progress bar thingie says "python-gst0.10 installiert" and the log says "Richte ca-certificates ein (2007...."
<dholbach> cjwatson: it shifted in the ISOs from a few days ago (I witnessed the problem too) but now it seems not to do that
<tkamppeter> sistpoty|work, the copyright file does not say anything about the LGPL, it does only say "this library" instead of "this software". Should I correct that?
<dholbach> cjwatson: I activated a console, typed stuff in there, typed random stuff everywhere but it just keeps sitting there
<dholbach> cjwatson: do you think I should talk to soren about it?
<sistpoty|work> tkamppeter: yes please... ideally it should be a verbatim copy of one of the notes in the upstream files
<tkamppeter> sistpoty|work, the sed calls do all replace shell commands like "rm -f /usr/", in the PPDs are no such expressions. The replacement to be done in the PPD fragment I apply only to lines beginning with an asterisk, as in a shell script lines do not begin with an asterisk.
<cjwatson> dholbach: ok, that sounds different. what's at the end of tty4, and what processes are running?
<dholbach> Apr 22 15:53:02 in-target: RICHTE CA-CERTIFICATES EIN (20070303-0UBUNTU3) ...^M
<cjwatson> (caps> apt bug)
<dholbach> dpkg --status-fs 14 --configure libntfs-3g23...
<dholbach> cjwatson: "dpkg --status-fs 14 --configure libntfs-3g23..." is the last one it started, it seems
<cjwatson> is ldconfig running?
<cjwatson> ("--status-fd", I'd have thought)
<dholbach> no
<dholbach> cjwatson: yes, --status-fs (sorry, wasn't copying and pasting)
<cjwatson> can you 'anna-install strace-udeb', strace that process, and find out what it's doing?
<cjwatson> there's almost nothing in that postinst ...
<dholbach> cjwatson: attach: ptrace(PTRACE_ATTACH, ...): No such process          - weird - I made sure it's the right pid
<tkamppeter> sistpoty|work, the license text in the upstream sources says "program" instead of "library". So I will take this one. Only other difference is the postal address of the FSF. Should I take the one from the original files (Temple Place) or the one of SaÃ¯vann's version (Franklin Street)?
<sistpoty|work> tkamppeter: well, the franklin street is newer, but I'd usually go with a verbatim copy. none is wrong
<sistpoty|work> tkamppeter: from looking at a few scripts, the sed commands seem indeed have caught all shell commands
<_MMA_> seb128: What controls how a wallpaper is displayed? Nautilus? I need to file a bug.
 * persia recommends using the current address of the FSF to allow those on desert islands with postal services to receive the complete copy of the license
<seb128> _MMA_: depends if you use nautilus or not, nautilus or gnome-control-center
<seb128> _MMA_: what is the issue?
<sistpoty|work> tkamppeter: FFe ack'd (please also note, that there are still other issues, e.g. the package fails to build twice in a row, but I don't think that's worthy to fix for hardy)
<ScottK> pitti: Do you have any opinions about dbconfig-common, Bug 216106 in particular?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 216106 in dbconfig-common "Please sync dbconfig-common 1.8.38 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)." [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/216106
<pitti> ScottK: TBH: no, I don't
<ScottK> OK.  Thanks.
<pitti> ScottK: I hardly ever touched that package
<ScottK> OK.  I think database and I think about you ...
<dholbach> cjwatson: I'll try it again later - I need to rush out for a bit now
<tkamppeter> sistpoty|work, I will upload it with the corrected debian/copyright now, the problem of not building twice in a row I also observed, but I ignored it to keep the debdiff small.
<sistpoty|work> tkamppeter: yes, as I wrote... not for hardy ;)
<_MMA_> seb128: When using a widescreen composed wallpaper on a 4:3 aspect screen, setting the Style to "Zoom" would crop the left/right sides while retaining the aspect. Now, it moves the image to the left and crop it all of the right. This is bad since Studio's walls and the Heron have been composed in such a way that cropping both sides is expected.
<_MMA_> *ï»¿crops it all off the right.
<seb128> _MMA_: is that bug #197357?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 197357 in gnome-control-center "background zoom should be centered" [Low,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/197357
<_MMA_> Ahh...
<_MMA_> "Low" Great. Oh well.
<seb128> _MMA_: we didn't get many bugs about the issue and it's only cosmetic, and to be honest I didn't manage to see the bug, I need to find a wallpaper adapted and do testing
<tkamppeter> sistpoty|work, I have reuploaded the package now.
<sistpoty|work> tkamppeter: thanks
<_MMA_> seb128: The Heron wall is wide. Using it on a 4:3 screen should show you.
<seb128> _MMA_: need to find a 4:3 screen then
<soren> dholbach: How much memory did... Oh, he buggered off.
<seb128> let me try xnest
<ion_> seb128: To test it, create e.g. a 1000x100 image in gimp, fill it with lorem ipsum or whatever, set it as the wallpaper in zoom mode. If it works, you should see the middle part of it on any screen.
<_MMA_> seb128: haha. I had to do the same here. :P Dig for a 4:3 screen.
<megabyte405> or resize a vm?
<seb128> ok, confirmed
<_MMA_> k
<nxvl> heno: hi!
<nxvl> heno: why is iso.qa closed?
 * heno looks
<heno> nxvl: you mean that is has no images for testing ATM?
<nxvl> heno: yep
<heno> we are waiting for new images that will be final candidates
<nxvl> heno: and it says "We are not testing at the moment" and that we are testing PRE RC images
<heno> we just flushed the results from RC testing
<nxvl> oh ok
<nxvl> so we are going to have the final images later today or tomorrow?
<heno> nxvl: I'll update the notice, thanks
<heno> nxvl: hopefully today - please join #ubuntu-testing to help with testing :)
<thesaltydog> is there a different behaviour of fdisk in 2.6.24?
<slangasek> soren: kernel patch> sorry, that would've needed to converge sooner to make it into 8.04; I fear we're in release notes territory now for anything requiring kernel changes
<soren> slangasek: Oh, it's entirely in userspace now.
<soren> slangasek: WEll, it's been so all along, but now we know it. :)
<slangasek> heh
<laga> cdimage.u.c is syncy today
<slangasek> soren: so in that case, we probably want to get the kvm fix uploaded ASAP so we can respin ubuntu-server only?
<soren> slangasek: Er... Yes. I just need to actually fix it first, y'know.
<megabyte405> can someone look at the abiword package?
<megabyte405> I've really worked to address all the concerns mentioned, and I believe it's ready to go
<pitti> megabyte405: we are in ultra deep-freeze mode now, that makes it extra hard to do such intrusive changes (just as a warning)
<slangasek> soren: ...oh ;)
<megabyte405> pitti: I am aware of that.  However, it's just changing one package (nothing depends on Abi), and this has been in progress for some time, and it's been approved.  Someone just needs to see that the package is in good shape - that's already been done, and I've addressed all concerns that they brought up
<persia> megabyte405: Do you have a bug number for the discussion?
<pitti> megabyte405: right, and up to a week ago this wouldn't have been a problem; but the closer we get to the release, the harder it gets to update it, and since yesterday we only take mission-critical bug fixes
<pitti> megabyte405: too bad that the timing sucks so much now :/
<pitti> megabyte405: we shuold try hard to provide it as an update to hardy, though
<megabyte405> bug 202174
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 202174 in abiword "Please update to version 2.6" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/202174
<slangasek> megabyte405: the trouble is that now, any packages that we accept, we have to wait for them to get built and then rebuild any CD images that the package is on
<megabyte405> I don't think we're on any cd images
<megabyte405> perhaps just Xubuntu, actually
<pitti> megabyte405: they are on the DVDs
<seb128> xubuntu is using abiword no?
<pitti> xubuntu too, right
<pitti> megabyte405: in three months we'll have a point release (8.04.1); releasing it there would still provide most of the benefits, without breaking the 8.04 release now; WDYT?
<megabyte405> I can do the final changelog merging right now if someone takes a peek at that debdiff and sees that I didn't break anything since the last review, of which I am confident
<megabyte405> I'm really, really concerned with having 2.4.6 in hardy
<megabyte405> There was a lot (and I mean a lot - 2.5 years of branch) of cleanup, some of which might have resolved unseen security bits.  I know we did make some changes to use standard structures instead of homebuilt stuff (STL vector instead of our own vector class, etc)
<pitti> megabyte405: but even the current testing showed some problems and regressions (scrolling AFAIK?), so we'd have another two months to sort them out for 8.04.1
<megabyte405> there is that scrolling thing, but as I mention in the bug, as that appears on no other platform, I think that's not an abi bug, and in any case, a low level bug like that (workaround: spin your scroll wheel slower) doesn't seem to be a logical blocker for two and a half years of progress
<megabyte405> 2.4 hasn't been touched in a year and a half
<megabyte405> and the scrolling bit is the only regression.
<pitti> (that we heard about so far)
<megabyte405> I have used it, and it works well
<megabyte405> to be honest, I've been using the 2.6 branch for about a year and a half
<megabyte405> on both linux and windows
<uwog> i just heard that abi 2.6 may not make it into hardy; now that's a fine choise, but keep in mind that 2.4.6 is unmaintained and *does* contain various security issues that were found and fixed in 2.6 (sadly, we don't have a lot, except for 1 recent one)
<uwog> so if you stick with 4.6 for 5 years, then you have to maintain it yourself :)
<uwog> s/4.6/2.4.6
<pitti> uwog: the proposal was to put it into the hardy point release instead of hardy
<pitti> uwog: thus we'd be 'stuck' with it for a mere three months
<uwog> pitti: i'm not too familiar with ubuntu's releases, but if the hardy point release gets to all users, then sure
<uwog> because especially the security issues scare me
<pitti> uwog: such a big update is still a biiig exception, and I can't promise that it'll make it, but at this point it's much better than getting it uploaded/fixed/onto CDs/DVDs now and delay the Hardy release for that
<slangasek> packages included in point releases show up as regular updates to the stable release, just one step removed from security updates
<kees> uwog: I am unaware of any outstanding security issues in abiword.  Do you have a list?
<pitti> uwog: (security issues: we have to fix them in dapper, etc. as well)
<uwog> pitti: delaying ubuntu for abi doesn't seem like a good choice :)
<slangasek> as for "security issues", yes, we have /other/ supported releases of Ubuntu that include abiword 2.4.6, it would be nice to have some communication about the substance of those security issues instead of using that as a scare tactic only
<uwog> kees: the issues i'm currently aware of is a recent fix to the applix filter, and maybe one to the ODT importer (we couldn't exploit a buffer overflow, but surely someone else can)
<uwog> slangasek: i'm very much aware
<kees> uwog: can you point me to the bug reports, I would like to get CVEs assigned for them.
<uwog> kees: there were never any bugreports... the code was just committed to our repos.. that's the annoying thing
<megabyte405> uwog: yeah, sum1 fixed some odt stuff recently - I did include those patches in the package
<uwog> megabyte405: the 'fixed array' issues, yes
<uwog> and 2.6.2 has 1 change to the applix plugin that is a buffer overflow
<uwog> it sucks that we don't have a proper record for 2.5 years of development work; feel free to flame us of it
<megabyte405> kees: we have an exceptional tester/coder ("sum1") who is very good at reading code/testing things and finding bugs.   He started by filing tons of bugs, but now it's generally quicker for him to just fix the bug
<kees> megabyte405: heh
<uwog> ah yes, that's better: blame sum1 for fixing the bugs1
<uwog> s/1/!
 * megabyte405 realizes it's probably futile to try to find those bug fixes by searching for "buffer" or "overflow" in the thunderbird svn commit mail folder...
<uwog> megabyte405: might turn up something
<kees> well, if there are security fixes going in, all the distros would appreciate hearing about it.  Can you arrange to either email me (kees@ubuntu.com) or vendor-sec (vendor-sec@lst.de) with details on the security commits?  we'd all greatly appreciate it.  :)
<uwog> after a few hours of searching the massive archive\
<uwog> megabyte405: can you at least mail the ODT and applix fixes ?
<megabyte405> uwog: my point exactly on the massive search
<megabyte405> uwog: are those post-2.6.2?
<uwog> 1 is post 2.6.2
<uwog> the applix one is on 2.6.2
<megabyte405> I'm working off a 2.6.2 source with all of sum1's fixes backported
<megabyte405> ok
<megabyte405> I should really just earch for all of sum1's commits...
<uwog> poor tbird
<aquo> i tried the release candidate with qemu (boot from cd), but it didn't work ...
<twi_> Keybuk, mdz, $anybodywhosattendinguds ping
<aquo> i get lost with some busybox command line in initramfs
<Keybuk> twi_: hello
<twi_> Keybuk hey, i'm an Elisa developer, we're planning on coming to UDS-Intrepid to talk about Elisa in ubuntu
<twi_> Keybuk we're working on a spec to discuss there
<Keybuk> twi_: cool
<Keybuk> working on a spec?
<twi_> yes, to integrate Elisa in the desktop
<twi_> to offer a better experience along the lines of osx/frontrow
<Riddell> UDS isn't about talks generally, more discussions and specs
<Keybuk_> twi_: sorry, something here dropped, did I miss anything since my last message?
<twi_> Keybuk_: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/elisa-integration
<_MMA_> Keybuk: I pointed ï»¿twi_ to you or mdz because if I remember correctly you guys have worked on the scheduling.
<Keybuk_> at this UDS, we're not doing automatic Launchpad-based scheduling
<Keybuk_> instead there will be a handful of free rooms with whiteboards outside
<Keybuk_> in which you can grab free slots, etc.
<_MMA_> Ohh....
<_MMA_> Keybuk_: So totally free-form?
<Keybuk_> in fact, we're positively discouraging people from registering specs in Launchpad first
<Keybuk_> since the temptation is to attempt to write the spec before
<Keybuk_> which makes it very hard to discuss freely, since the interested parties have already made the decisions
<_MMA_> True.
<twi_> Keybuk_ sorry I've been dragged away for 5 mins
<twi_> Keybuk_ ok, sounds good
<twi_> Keybuk_ we're going to be able to stay there for 2-3 days, not the whole summit
<thesaltydog> why on 2.6.24 my /proc/bus/usb/devices is empty even if I have inserted an USB-pen?
<Keybuk_> twi_: which makes not using the scheduler even more ideal for you, since you can add it to the board on the days you're there
<Keybuk_> thesaltydog: /proc/bus/usb isn't supported in recent distributions
<twi_> Keybuk_ yeah it's cool to me
<Keybuk_> thesaltydog: it's been deprecated for ages, and many (including Ubuntu) don't even enable it anymore
<twi_> Keybuk_ but we're going to be able to stay there for 2-3 days, not the whole summit
<thesaltydog> Keybuk_, ehi! I was relying on it.. what is a workaround to detect an usb pen not formatted? fdisk -l doesn't work for the user
<twi_> Keybuk_ so when do you think it would be better for us to be there? beginning/middle/end of the summit?
<Keybuk_> twi_: any time
<twi_> ok, perfect then
<thesaltydog> Keybuk_, on 2.6.22 fdisk -l gave the user a list of inserted USB pens, even if not mounted. In 2.6.24 it is no more the case.
<Keybuk_> thesaltydog: file a bug on util-linux
<thesaltydog> ok..:-(
<thesaltydog> thanks!
<Keybuk_> np
<Keybuk_> --> train
<ilembitov> Hi, all. I am a complete beginner in programming, I went through some fundamental Computer Science books, but have no experience in practical programming whatsoever. So I wanted to participate in some Python project for Ubuntu at the lowest position so I could learn from real activities and practices. Is my plan any real?
<megabyte405> ilembitov: sure - go look in launchpad for some bug that affects you (or at the very least that you can reproduce), and try to fix it.  The best way to get involved is to scratch an itch
<DB42> how can i check why my laptop fan doesn't work after returning from hibernation till i unplug AC ?
<laga> ilembitov: if you'd like to work on mythbuntu (a media centre distribution), you're always welcome in #ubuntu-mythtv-dev
<ilembitov> laga: MythTV is Python-based, isn't it? Or was it Elisa?
<laga> ilembitov: mythtv is c++. dunno about elisa.
<laga> but we've got some python-based management apps
<ilembitov> megabyte405: I've found a mentoring section on Launchpad. Am I on the right way?)
<megabyte405> ilembitov: not so much -that's for those who want to get involved in packaging.  You'd probably be better off looking for an upstream project to work with - pick your favorite program and go visit their site, irc channel, etc
<ilembitov> megabyte405: Oh, I see. Thanks, all.
<megabyte405> Ubuntu packages and aggregates upstream packages, and does some develop of its own (yes, frequently in Python) on system integration stuff, but if you find something you're really interested in, that is going to be the easiest
<megabyte405> plus, then what you do hopefully makes it into all distributions :)
<heno> *** The first candidate images are up: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/ *** Please help test!
<laga> yay
<compbrain> If I have an init script that runs fine on its own, but fails if run as a result of apt-get [install,upgrade], what should I look at?
<cjwatson> StevenK: are you guys aware of / working on the hildon-control-panel build failure on amd64? it's the only uninstallable left in the archive for supported architectures
<slangasek>   * Cast state.state_size to gsize. Fixes build failure on 64-bit arches.
<slangasek> heh, or not
<slangasek> StevenK: fix it harder
<ilembitov> megabyte405: Yeah, asking the same question on Python channel definitely wasn't a good idea. Seems like I've seen only two projects that offered some kind of mentoring - Ubuntu and Google Summer Of Code)
<laga> (and mythbuntu. ;))
<megabyte405> ilembitov: you don't need a specific mentoring program.  If you go to any project you ahve an interest in, read the "How to ask smart questions" guide you can find ubuntu), and go find something to work on, I'm sure you'll get assistance
<megabyte405> a formal mentoring program takes a lot of energy, while a less formal "if you have a question and can't find the answer, ask it" process is more efficient in most cases
<laga> yup
<tkamppeter> sistpoty, saivann has uploaded debdiffs to fix all copyright files now, should they also go into Hardy or is this not so important? The new packages do not have functional fixes, as their PPDs were correct in the first place.
<SEJeff> tkamppeter, Seems like that would be SRU
<pitti> cjwatson: I told him some days ago, but the attempted fix didn't work
<Caesar> slangasek: your fix for #208419 is a bit sucky (witness #216990)
<slangasek> Caesar: aware of 216990; patch in the works, suffering from RM contention
<slangasek> so unfortunately that'll have to be 8.04.1 at this stage :/
<tkamppeter> SEJeff, you are right, nothing is broken in these packages, there is only a "library" instead of "program" in the licence header.
<tkamppeter> SEJeff, sistpoty, only package really important to go in is brother-cups-wrapper-laser1, as this one has a real bug fix.
<SEJeff> tkamppeter, Is it an RC bug?
<tkamppeter> SEJeff, the problem originally descried in bug 219509 was also in the RC.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 219509 in brother-cups-wrapper-laser1 "printing Din A4 format not working" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219509
<pitti> soren: I'm curious -- virtio-blk sounds kind of important? what does (or rather, did) it do?
<kees> Riddell: can you sync snort, based on the motu-release ACK in 213143?
<alex-weej> Has there been any official word on what we're doing with the ALSA/PulseAudio race?
<Riddell> kees: I can
<kees> Riddell: cool, thanks.
<aquo> ok, i proceeded with my experiments with qemu and the RC-images ...
<aquo> it is crucial to allocated enough memory to the VM
<crimsun> alex-weej: for the images, nothing for the release this week.
<alex-weej> crimsun: for the longer term
<alex-weej> i've given up on 8.04.0 :)
<crimsun> alex-weej: that depends.  Did you add your feedback to the bugs?
<alex-weej> the bug is worryingly void on any @ubuntu/canonical chatter
<aquo> with 256 mb nothing happens, failure with initramfs busybox prompt and no error message ...
<alex-weej> crimsun: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/198453
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 198453 in alsa-lib "Default ALSA device must use PulseAudio, otherwise ALSA applications may fail" [High,Confirmed]
<SEJeff> tkamppeter, RC as in release critical
<aquo> with 400mb boot process proceeds, but X won't start ...
<alex-weej> crimsun: i replied to you
<crimsun> alex-weej: I'm not sure what you mean by "devoid of.."
<aquo> complaining about missing get-edid and discover tools ...
<SEJeff> pitti, virtio-blk is the paravirt disk stuff for kvm
<alex-weej> crimsun: i mean it's mostly people talking about it who have no authority to make any decisions.
<pitti> SEJeff: i. e. the bits that make it fast?
<aquo> i think, tomorrow in the company i will try with vmware workstation ...
<SEJeff> pitti, Yes
<pitti> a pity
<crimsun> alex-weej: at least 4 devs have commented in that report
<slangasek> so fast that it loses its clock, yes
<SEJeff> pitti, virtio block QEMU driver to be specific
<crimsun> alex-weej: and it appears that nothing will change for 8.04.1 WRT a global or per-user asoundrc effecting routing through the pulse pcm plug.  That is way too invasive.
<alex-weej> crimsun: why not?
<alex-weej> crimsun: and who decided this? and why isn't it mentioned in the bug?
<crimsun> alex-weej: no one decided it; that's why I said "it appears".
<aquo> has anybody of you tested RC-images with qemu?
<laga> what kind of changes will happen for 8.04.1? any difference from the normal SRU process?
<seb128> updates will be sru as usual
<Amaranth> jcastro: this crew duties thing looks like what i was doing last time anyway :P
<seb128> 8.04.1 will be new cds images
<crimsun> alex-weej: I understand your perspective, but "oh well, screw them" is not legitimate for a release, particularly an LTS.
<seb128> there will be some extra focus in fixing bugs in hardy though
<HelloWorld1> hello anyone out there, could anyone could advise me which remastering tool is fast to make an ISO?
<alex-weej> crimsun: but the fact is the fixes to "them" can be rolled out later in the LTS. every new OS has "teething problems" and this to me is acceptable, especially for third party components
<alex-weej> Amaranth: you been following the Pulse/ALSA bug?
<Amaranth> alex-weej: not really
<Amaranth> alex-weej: Last I heard the idea was to make pulseaudio use dmix so apps that want to talk to alsa directly can
<SEJeff> HelloWorld1, man mkisofs. This is the wrong channel for that. Try #ubuntu please
<Amaranth> so basically our desktop apps get the shiny and all the non-GNOME and/or closed source stuff is out in the cold
<crimsun> Amaranth: that's my position.  It is not official - because there is no official position.  In fact, I'm pretty much the only person stabbing at it.
<alex-weej> Amaranth: that's really not recommended upstream, though.
<sistpoty> tkamppeter: sorry, was afk for a moment, /me looks
<alex-weej> Amaranth: as it actually makes the PA-using apps more latent and with no latency feedback
<Amaranth> alex-weej: upstream doesn't have to deal with regular users
<alex-weej> Amaranth: what are regular users doing that doesn't include Skype/WINE?
<Amaranth> i dunno, is vlc still screwed when you do the asoundrc thing?
<crimsun> they're installing Flash.  Which no longer pulls in libflashsupport.  And doesn't use ndiswrapper for ia32.
<HelloWorld1> SEJeff thank you
<crimsun> Amaranth: pulse is the default as per the last upload.
<alex-weej> Amaranth: not sure, haven't tried it. is there not a PA-output for VLC? :(
<Amaranth> crimsun: last time i checked vlc either didn't have a pulse output or it was broken
<crimsun> s/ndiswrapper/nspluginwrapper/
<Amaranth> can't remember which
<alex-weej> crimsun: wha? why would flash use ndis?
<Amaranth> but sound was screwed if you tried to seek through a video
<crimsun> too many n*plug*wrappers
<Amaranth> too many hacks
<jcastro> Amaranth: yeah, now you get another shirt. :D
<alex-weej> crimsun: oh, why is that a problem for ia32? and last time i checked flashplugin-nonfree DID pull libflashsupport
<Amaranth> alex-weej: it stopped doing so a couple days ago
<alex-weej> is this an Fx crasher perchance?
<sistpoty> tkamppeter: imo we don't need to change this for hardy, as the boilerplate refers to the GPL
<crimsun> alex-weej: it doesn't, because for quite a few users, it makes FF3.0b5 unusable.
<alex-weej> but surely it's still unusable without it?
<Amaranth> crimsun: But I loved playing tricks with youtube to make it not crash
<ogra> crimsun, asac and me inversted quite some time into that, but its a fact that you are the one with the biggest expertise here
<Amaranth> alex-weej: no, because we let it talk to alsa now
<alex-weej> Amaranth: because you're not using the pulse plug, right.
<alex-weej> so why aren't we just dropping PA?
<crimsun> alex-weej: it's a bit more usable without libflashsupport installed.
<alex-weej> we are basically forgoing any benefit at all
<crimsun> alex-weej: because it's not my call, nor do I wish it to be.
<crimsun> and we're on the cusp of release, as slangasek notes.
<alex-weej> you know, i spoke to Lennart a week or so ago
<Amaranth> pulse does end up being useless though
<asac> alex-weej: crimsun brought some new ideas that looked promissing. howveer there was bad feedback that didn
<asac> t allow us to ship those changes unfortunately
<crimsun> asac: those were all addressed.
<crimsun> skipping is due to scheduler; Ingo pushed a patch into 2.6.25 right before its release that addresses it.
<alex-weej> RT bug?
<asac> crimsun: ok. didn't know that the other issues were addresses as well
<crimsun> alternately, people can enable CONFIG_FAIR_CGROUP_SCHED
<asac> crimsun: we should certainly start to prepare a -proposed update then
<alex-weej> what is the synopsis of this fix?
<crimsun> asac: already pushed to bzr
<asac> alex-weej: bug 192888
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 192888 in pulseaudio "firefox crashes on flash contents" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192888
<asac> to get the full story
<crimsun> alex-weej: to use dmix and dsnoop for the initial run and allow hal-detect to take care of hot(un)plugged ones afterward.  Unfortunately there's a race in suspend-on-idle.
<alex-weej> i may be suffering some kind of myopia, but what is the point in using PA if we're using dmix?
<crimsun> alex-weej: because we have those crackful apps like Skype, Flash, ...
<alex-weej> we don't ship any GNOME tools that are suitable for controlling PA (they don't really exist yet)
<crimsun> correct, that's why pavucontrol and ilk are still in universe
<alex-weej> right, so to the end-user, there is no goodness of PA
<alex-weej> they can't do fancy things like using network audio devices or independent stream volume control
<alex-weej> which leaves us with the same functionality set as with dmix
<alex-weej> just with more latency and more resource usage
<crimsun> alex-weej: they'd have to install pavucontrol for a pretty front regardless
<alex-weej> exactly
<alex-weej> so we might as well drop it from the gst default pipeline and remove the dep from ubuntu-desktop
<crimsun> why weren't you arguing this in January?
<alex-weej> because i thought it would be worked out without using dmix.
<macd> is there a way to search for a file in a package without downloading it? looking for what contains libpci.so.2 in hardy, libpci1 has .so.1, xchat-xsys plugin requires .so.2 but its not a dependancy for install
<crimsun> alex-weej: it currently - Hardy will ship - with it NOT using dmix and dsnoop.
<crimsun> -EGRAMMAR, but whatever
<aquo> am i required to use pulse audio?
<ogra> alex-weej, not using a sound daemon would make us lose gnome event sounds
<alex-weej> esd still works
<crimsun> aquo: no, you can opt out.
<ogra> right
<aquo> i don't like all the sound deamons. i use xfce, but not xubuntu ...
<Amaranth> macd: apt-file
<alex-weej> so currently we have the race condition and failing ALSA apps when PA goes into use first, nothing we can do about that
<aquo> it a mess with all the sound deamons, plain alsa is pretty fine.
<aquo> +is
<alex-weej> so damage limitation -- switch the default gst output to gconfsink again
<pitti> persia: is there a bug# for your tcl8.5 upload? ack from motu-release?
<macd> Amaranth, ty
<crimsun> pitti: from -motu today:
<crimsun> 12:36       ScottK > persia: No.  Ack.  Please mark it in the bug when there is  one.
<pitti> crimsun: cheers
<pitti> persia: that should affect Debian as well; do they know about it?
<pitti> ah, apparently already fixed there
<mgolisch> why does hardy ship with ff3?
<mgolisch> is there a good reason for that?
<Amaranth> because ff2 won't exist in 3 years?
<Amaranth> heck, ff2 won't exist in 1 year
<macd> Amaranth, apt-file update takes ages :(
<Tm_T> mgolisch: also, any reason not to? :)
<mgolisch> oh but its beta or rc ware
<mgolisch> isnt that a bad idea?
<Amaranth> sure, it's a beta
<Amaranth> but it's pretty solid
<Amaranth> and will be updated later
<mgolisch> yeah but lots of extension do not support ff3
<Tm_T> yet
<Amaranth> too bad for them, they'll go away soon
<mgolisch> :)
<Amaranth> mozilla already said update or die
<mgolisch> i see
<mgolisch> :)
<mgolisch> another question, did someone managed to build cdemu on current ubuntus?
<Tm_T> mgolisch: but glad to see I'm not the only one who have spent his time wondering these things ;)
<mgolisch> it worked wondefull before feisty but after that it doesnt, or does anyone know an alternative?
<alex-weej> Amaranth, crimsun, asac: is it worth caring about this or should we just let it slide? i don't want to waste time preparing a case if it's a hopeless one. plenty of other low-hanging fruit.
<asac> alex-weej: if you want to help, test the latest in the bug
<asac> and comment
<alex-weej> asac: test what sorry?
<asac> alex-weej: test the latest patch in the bug
<crimsun> alex-weej: IMO, it's worth it, but be aware that your perspective seems to differ to mine.
<alex-weej> crimsun: right. my perspective is upstream's, though. so therefore it's better. just kidding. :P
<crimsun> well, for the record, I do agree with upstream's.  However, I'm keenly aware that users trample all over upstream's conffiles.
<calc> anyone know how to fix this error?
<calc> Because "gpg: using classic trust model
<calc> gpg: using subkey 1FEA0B26 instead of primary key E65A30D5
<calc> gpg: 1FEA0B26: There is no assurance this key belongs to the named user
<calc> gpg: [stdin]: encryption failed: unusable public key
<calc> ", you may need to select different mail options.
<calc> evolution won't let me encrypt emails
<alex-weej> crimsun: well that's their problem. :P
<alex-weej> i've just posted on the bug my view of a cleaner way of achieving what you hope to achieve by using dmix and dsnoop
<alex-weej> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/198453
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 198453 in alsa-lib "Default ALSA device must use PulseAudio, otherwise ALSA applications may fail" [High,Confirmed]
<ogra> alex-weej, solution 1 would be fine if there wouldnt be bug 192888
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 192888 in pulseaudio "firefox crashes on flash contents" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192888
<alex-weej> ogra: then all the effort should be going into 192888 without just pulling libflashsupport
<ogra> right, thats my opinion
<alex-weej> do it properly or not at all, is my view!
<laga> slangasek: can you respin the mythbuntu alt disk?
<slangasek> laga: that's scheduled to happen soon whether you want it or not ;)
<jdong>  /me wonders if he can pause a libvirt VM, reboot, and resume it....
<jdong> I bet Fujitsu will tell me that I'm insane again for wondering that :D
<alex-weej> ogra, asac: has this fx/libfs bug turned up in ephy btw?
<alex-weej> only i've been using it for ages with no problems...
<alex-weej> if so, we can drop fx and distribute ephy as the default browser!
<jdong> slangasek: oh mighty release deity, do you think there'll be any more updates to Hardy's release that may require a reboot after I installed today's l-u-m stuff? :)
<slangasek> jdong: are you asking whether there are many more updates pending?
<jdong> slangasek: pretty much
<jdong> slangasek: at least ones to the kernel
<slangasek> yeah, none
<asac> alex-weej: i have no idea what you are talking about.
<jdong> slangasek: okies :)
<alex-weej> asac: libflashsupport
<asac> alex-weej: the crashes are certainly the same for ephy
<ogra> alex-weej, http://www.pulseaudio.org/ticket/267
<ogra> thats te prob
<ogra> feel free to fix :)
<alex-weej> asac: weird. not had it yet.
<alex-weej> on amd64 though.
<asac> its 225
<ogra> asac, was duplicated
<asac> alex-weej: on amd64 you wont see firefox crash
<alex-weej> ah, but npviewer does?
<asac> alex-weej: becaues its guarded by nspluginwrapper
<alex-weej> i've noticed that disappear a few times -- i guess that's the crash then.
<laga> slangasek: good :)
<alex-weej> though audio plays, i just get a grey window.
<asac> alex-weej: however oyu would see npviewer crashes .. though not that frequently i guess
<asac> yes thats the same bug
<asac> on i386 it always kills the browser
<alex-weej> how come audio plays?
<alex-weej> yeah makes sense, the plugin is in-process right?
<asac> yes
<asac> don't ask me why the audio stilly plays. maybe its a buffer thing
 * compbrain twiddles waiting for qa iso downloads
<alex-weej> asac: thanks, i understand
<asac> alex-weej: try the latest PA from bzr and let us know if that helps for your sound setup
<asac> alex-weej: that would be more helpful than questioning the libflashsupport droppage :)
<alex-weej> asac: how do i build a package from bzr?
<alex-weej> and what does it do? just use dmix and dsnoop?
<asac> alex-weej: it tries to workaround the issues we have as good as possible
<asac> alex-weej: i am not sure of the latest details, but in general thats the case, yes.
<alex-weej> i don't see why using dmix and dsnoop wouldn't work, but like i said there is a better solution for the same final product. drop PA.
<ogra> alex-weej, that would get us away from upstream ... gnome uses PA
<alex-weej> ogra: er? sure?
<alex-weej> i don't think so.
<asac> alex-weej: we got that from gnome. yes.
<ogra> pretty
<alex-weej> you mean you got the default gst elements config from upstream gnome?
<alex-weej> ah, esound is relegated to universe now. damn.
<alex-weej> i find it bizarre that gnome-desktop are depending on pulseaudio already. they still don't even depend on notification-daemon.
<slangasek> Caesar: patch sent to 216990 now, testing welcome
<slangasek> laga: mythbuntu daily done
<laga> slangasek: yay
<compbrain> If anyone is waiting for an amd64 qa iso, i've jigdo'ed it -- http://xrl.us/hardyqaamd64
<pitti> compbrain: cdimage.u.c. already provides .jigdos, FYI
<pitti> compbrain: (I use them all the time :) )
<compbrain> pitti: I mean, if your waiting for the whole iso. cdimage.u.c is pumping out a measly 50KB/s for me on either US coast
<compbrain> So I built the iso and mirrored that.
<pitti> compbrain: aah; yeah, that makes more sense to me now
<pitti> cdimage is quite hammered ATM, I suppose
<slangasek> right, so he used jigdo as an ISO teleportation device
<slangasek> yes, #ubuntu-testing confirms this
 * pitti â¥ jigdo
<pitti> seb128: hm, floppy handling still sucks; well, something for .1
<compbrain> pitti: It's far more fun with an entire archive mirror 1 network hop away :)
<pitti> compbrain: yummy
<laga> i'd assume apt-cacher on localhost would be even faster :)
<compbrain> Na. We've got our mirror on a enterprise NAS device with speedy hardware as a frontend
<compbrain> My sata disks aren't that fast
<laga> okay, that's nice :)
<ScottK> pitti, slangasek, Riddell (or any archive-admin I've missed): If a source package makes statements about trademark restrictions should/must debian/copyright describ those resitrictions or do we not care because it's not copyright that's at issue?
 * pitti adds elmo to the CC: list ^
<ScottK> This is the package in question: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=ttf-ubuntu-title
<pitti> ScottK: I have to admit I haven't come across such a case yet
<ScottK> It's a definite improvement from what we have now (one that has no source), but I'd like to get it right.
<compbrain> Anyone know if Bug #210672 has been fixed with patches in the end of the bug?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 210672 in linux "linux-image-2.6.24-13-openvz refuses to boot" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/210672
<Riddell> ScottK: it doesn't restrict copying so no need to mention it in debian/copyright, however it's still useful information so Trademarks-Readme.txt should go in /usr/share/doc/<package>
<ScottK> Riddell: Thank you.
<elmo> ScottK: while Riddell's answer's technically right, I'd strongly encourage folks to include such information in debian/copyright
<ScottK> elmo: Thanks.  It's mentioned in the package description, so I think it's sufficiently prominent, particularly less than 8 hours before the archive closes.
<elmo> ScottK: sure, I don't mean this package in particular, I mean in general
<lool> ScottK: Hey, with the new Ubuntu debsign, I get this in my pbuilder builds:
<lool> mv: try to overwrite `/home/lool/.pbuilder/result/sid/laptop-mode-tools_1.41-1_i386.changes', overriding mode 0644 (rw-r--r--)? y
<ScottK> RIght.
<lool> ScottK: Could it be that some mv wasn't "-f"-ed and should have been?
<ScottK> Could be.  I didn't get that when I tested it before I uploaded it.  Not sure.
<ScottK> elmo: Thanks.
<lool> ScottK: I have alias mv='mv -i'
<ScottK> So it's updating your .changes file.  Is that suprising then?
<soren> pitti: You can think of virtio as special bus between the host and guest. virtio-blk is a block device driver that makes use of it. It removes the overhead caused by the guest having to talk to an emulated SCSI or IDE controller and the host having to decode those requests again and turn them into something it can usefully handle.
<pitti> soren: ah, so that layer of efficiency has been disabled then?
<soren> pitti: Truth be told, right now there's not much to gain from it, since that's not actually where the bottleneck is when dealing with emulated block devices.
<soren> pitti: You *really* see the performance gain in virtio-net, though. We still have that.
<soren> pitti: I can easily push through ~150 megabytes per second through virtio-net.
<lool> ScottK: The problem is that it's not
<lool> ScottK: it's an internal operation
<lool> ScottK: there's an unsigned change, it sign into a signed change file, then moves it over the signed change file
<lool> I shouldn't have to confirm this with yes
<ScottK> I see.  Well there's nothing Ubuntu unique in debsign that would cause that.
<lool> I wonder why it does only happen with pbuilder though
<ScottK> No idea.
<lool> Hmm it's because pbuilder outputs the .changes files as root
<stgraber> ogra: do you plan to test both i386 and amd64 ubuntu alternates for LTSP on real hardware ?
<ogra> i cant emulate amd64 so that will have to be real HW
<stgraber> ok, I'm doing all virtual at the moment as I don't have access to my test computers (used for other testing)
<ogra> i'm just done with one complete edubuntu i386 classroom server install
<laga> ogra: is qemu not sufficient? (although really slow)
<ogra> stgraber, how the heck do i get thin clients shown in italc ? is there a special IP i have to give ?
<stgraber> ogra: italc-launcher should "just work"
<ogra> laga, qemu has an amd64 emu that works stable ?
<stgraber> ogra: the ica on the thin clients is running on a custom port (10000+<last byte of IP> IIRC)
<laga> ogra: dunno about "stable" :)
<Caesar> slangasek: we'll give it a test, thanks
<bryce> hey, for inkscape we manage the code in svn, but in launchpad there is a bzr mirror of it.  Is it possible to push changes being worked on from a clone of this bzr mirror back up to svn?  Or is doing it via bzr patch the only approach available?
<jdong> bryce: with launchpad's mirroring it's not simple, though you can use bzr-rebase to replay all your local revisions onto it
<jdong> bryce: with bzr-svn mirroring it would be seamless
<bryce> jdong: thanks.  what's involved with switching to bzr-svn mirroring?
<jdong> GRUMBLE why does g-p-m suspend my lappy even though it was on AC power and I told it never to suspend on AC?
<jdong> bryce: having someone regularly bzr pull from svn and bzr push to launchpad
<jdong> bryce: i.e. the process is no longer automated by LP
<bryce> jdong: thanks
<jdong> certainly
<bryce> (unfortunately, sounds too labor intensive)
<tedg> bryce: I think it should just be a cron job.  There shouldn't be any conflicts.
<tedg> jdong: What is GPM doing?
<tedg> jdong: Is there a big?
<tedg> bug
<jdong> tedg: I didn't file a bug because I need to reproduce it...
<jdong> tedg: but I have my macbook hooked up to AC...
<jdong> tedg: GPM is configured to never sleep on AC
<jdong> tedg: yet in the middle of downloading updates the laptop went to sleep
<tedg> jdong: After how long?
<jdong> tedg: about 15 minutes; pretty coincidentally similar to my on-battery sleep timeout
<tedg> jdong: Hmm, I don't see anything obviously wrong in that code path...
<bigon> infinity: are you around?
<tedg> jdong: If you capture a log, probably the most interesting message is "Setting system idle timeout"
<jdong> tedg: maybe I'm just losing my mind... I might suspect sysfs power supply is misbehaving in some way
<jdong> tedg: anyway, I'll look into it and poke people when I have more info
<tedg> jdong: Cool.  I'm probably the person you want to poke :)
<jdong> tedg: ok, so you're my GPM guy *opens up tomboy note of DOOOOM*
 * tedg considers a tomboy patch to remove himself from tomboy notes :)
 * lamont wonders what the prompt window was that he just hit return in since it stole focus.   go firefox!
<tedg> bryce: http://davelargo.blogspot.com/2008/04/compiz-predefined-levels.html
<tedg> bryce: Perhaps we could do that to reduce people expecting more out of their drivers than they can do :)
<RussellGee> tedg: do you have a link for the source ?
<RussellGee> looks really nice
<tedg> RussellGee: No, I don't.  In the comments there are people asking about it.
#ubuntu-devel 2008-04-23
<RussellGee> I'l have a look around ;)
<bryce> tedg: possibly, although I see expectations have no bearing on what the driver is actually capable of so far ;-)
<bryce> tedg: we get feature requests for things not even implemented upstream yet
<bryce> tedg: but yeah, this sounds like something mvo and amarath might find interesting
<tedg> bryce: Heh, okay.
<bryce> from an X pov, compiz either works or it doesn't, so the options would just be 1 or "any" ;-)
<tedg> bryce: Honestly, that's not what all the screensaver bugs tell me.  It seems very driver/temperature/direction of wind specific on which ones will kill a system.
<wilsonicus> Hello.
<compbrain> There was a change in apt from dapper to gutsy that broke our projects init script. We get a sighup or the like shortly after invoke-rc.d package start
<dholbach> good morning
<dholbach> so how are we looking for release?
<slangasek> we are looking *intently* for release. :)
<RAOF> slangasek: thinks he has one behind the couch, if that's any help.
<dholbach> hehe
<RAOF> Stupid enter key.
<Hobbsee> come on, copy faster
 * dholbach checks the iso tracker for bugs that were found
<dholbach> I'm not sure, but to me it looks like adding bug 218191 to the iso tracker was a mistake :)
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 218191 in bzr "paramiko.SSHException: Server connection dropped" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218191
<jdong> yeah, that has nothing to do with Hardy at all :)
<fabbione> hey dholbach
<fabbione> hi guys
<dholbach> hiya fabbione - how are you doing?
<Hobbsee> heya fabbione
<fabbione> dholbach: is there anybody in our .de community that lives in Munich?
<fabbione> hey Hobbsee
<dholbach> fabbione: I think glatzor does
<dholbach> hang on
<fabbione> dholbach: none of our guys do?
<fabbione> /our/canonical...
<dholbach> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-munich/+members
<fabbione> ok thanks :)
<dholbach> glatzor is on there
<jdong> *our* :D
<fabbione> dholbach: ok thanks...
<fabbione> i don't know him...
<dholbach> https://launchpad.net/~glatzor - never met him during UDSes?
<dholbach> he did great work around gnome-app-install, displayconfig-gtk, etc
<fabbione> maybe..
<fabbione> my memory for people sucks
<dholbach> nice logo for ubuntu-munich: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/3010060/msn_beer.png
<Hobbsee> dholbach: hah
<warp10> Good morning
<emgent> heya warp10 :)
<warp10> hey emgent
<tseliot> emgent: hi
<emgent> heya tseliot
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> heya pitti
<Hobbsee> good morning pitti!
 * pitti hugs dholbach and Hobbsee
 * dholbach hugs y'all back
<stgraber> hi pitti
<dholbach> hey seb
<dholbach> hey seb128 :)
<seb128> hello dholbach
<pitti> bonjour seb128
<seb128> hey pitti
<seb128> pitti: what issue did you have with floppy? the floppy is mounted but you get an error dialog?
<pitti> seb128: hm, there was some confusion about getting different icons and weird names ("1.5 MB media", etc.)
<pitti> seb128: by and large it worked
<pitti> I should have taken notes, darn
<seb128> pitti: ah, that too, when unmounting the label doesn't change back, it still says 1.5M media
<pitti> right
<seb128> pitti: bug #206860
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 206860 in gvfs "Floppy drive label icon changes to "1,5 GB Media" and don't go back to "Floppy Drive" anymore" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/206860
<seb128> pitti: and bug #203722
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 203722 in gnome-mount "Double clicking on Floppy Drive gives an error (Unable to mount location) despite it's mounted but not opened in Hardy RC" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/203722
<pitti> seb128: ah, that was it, too; thanks
<seb128> pitti: bug #203722 is the annoying one, I'll have a look to fix those for 8.04.1 I think, but floppies are not exactly high priority work right now ;-)
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 203722 in gnome-mount "Double clicking on Floppy Drive gives an error (Unable to mount location) despite it's mounted but not opened in Hardy RC" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/203722
<pitti> seb128: right; and by and large they work, so cosmetics are fine for .1
<tjaalton> pitti: hey, would you think that jockey could handle wacom-devices until the driver/xserver did input-hotplug properly?
<pitti> argh, these 'psmouse sync lost'/kernel crashes drive me crazy
<pitti> tjaalton: everything's possible :)
<pitti> tjaalton: for that we need (1) a reliable way of detecting them, and (2) a mostly non-interactive way to set it up
<pitti> tjaalton: but certainly jockey already has enough code for xorg.conf mangling, etc.
<Mithrandir> tjaalton: what's missing for input hotplug there?
<pitti> tjaalton: does that need additional packages which we don't install by default, or something?
<tjaalton> pitti: ok, would it be possible to hash it out at UDS, and maybe even get something in 8.04.1? (I know, a new feature, but..)
<pitti> tjaalton: yes, I want to talk about jockey and device drivers at UDS anyway (also with the envy guys)
<pitti> tjaalton: TBH, I fully expect to update stable releases with new hardware drivers, and thus new jockey handlers
<tjaalton> pitti: the wacom input driver is installed by default, but I'm not sure if wacom-tools would be needed. the proposed dexconf-hackery only relied on detecting /dev/input/wacom, so maybe it's enough
<pitti> tjaalton: hm; but if everything is already there, why can't it be set up by default then?
<pitti> tjaalton: the purpose of interactive installation like jockey (notification, acknowledge, etc.) is mostly to fetch packages from unknown/third-party/non-free locations, etc.
<tjaalton> Mithrandir: the driver has had some sort of hotplug support, but not quite something that works nicely with the server, which still has it's own issues
<Mithrandir> tjaalton: I have an x61t, so if there's anything I can do to make it work, please tell me.
<tjaalton> pitti: AIUI jockey would be needed for detecting a hotplug wacom device, so the dexconf approach would need the device to be attached during install/reconfiguration
<pitti> tjaalton: ah, I see what you mean
<tjaalton> Mithrandir: ah ok, so hang on then :)
<pitti> tjaalton: ATM jockey doesn't have hotplug suport, it only checks at session startup; I do mean to add hotplug support, though
<Mithrandir> tjaalton: I've never done actual X driver development, so that might be a bit above my skills, but if it's just testing and twiddling packages and such, I can do that easily.
<tjaalton> pitti: yeah that's what occured to me a minute ago..
<pitti> tjaalton: gnome-volume-manager has some (limited) support for it, thuogh
<pitti> tjaalton: check system -> settings -> removable media and devices, it has keyboards, tablets, etc.
<pitti> tjaalton: so we could run a program there
<tjaalton> Mithrandir: I think upstream is close to having it sorted out. We should actually have the first decent release for input-hotplug
<pitti> tjaalton: depends on how the device appears in hal; you might check gnome-volume-manager -n and see the debug output (and set the program to some dummy shell script)
<tjaalton> pitti: oh right, that's one approach
<dholbach> "Error deleting openoffice.org-writer2latex - subprocess pre-removal script returned error 1"
<dholbach> mvo: ^ I'm doing a ubiquity installation right now - where can I read the terminal output of apt/dpkg? /var/log/dpkg.log and /var/log/apt/term.log don't mention that problem
<pitti> o_O
 * pitti looks at the quodlibet source and sees
<pitti> +         "file:///Sebastian/Droge/please/choke/on/a/bucket/of/cocks", ""):
<StevenK> Wow
<pitti> slomo: any idea about that?
<tjaalton> pitti: so, if the wacom driver is enough to detect the device, then jockey could install wacom-tools
<tjaalton> pitti: anyway, I'll reply to Vincenzo about this
<dholbach> to me it seems bug 219703 and bug 218246 and bug 200979 should be fixed
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 219703 in writer2latex "Writer2latex 0.5-6 fails to install on Hardy ppc" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219703
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 218246 in writer2latex "upgrading writer2latex fails when doing version upgrade to Ubuntu 8.04LTS" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218246
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 200979 in writer2latex "package writer2latex 0.5-6 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 127" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/200979
<dholbach> and if it's just by adding "|| true" to all maintainer scripts
<dholbach> I get a popup during an ubiquity install because of it
<dholbach> that sucks
<dholbach> calc: still awake?
<pitti> slomo: bug 220907, FYI; I subscribed the community council, too
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220907 in quodlibet "source code heavily insulting" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220907
<stgraber> mvo: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/1562/15 is the link to bug 218191 intentional or just a typing mistake ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 218191 in bzr "paramiko.SSHException: Server connection dropped" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218191
<dholbach> pitti: added svn log of the revision that added it
<pitti> dholbach: thanks
<dholbach> pitti: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7824
<dholbach> pitti: I get a popup during ubiquity install because of the prerm failing
<pitti> dholbach: wow, ubiquity install touches ooo-writer2latex?
<dholbach> pitti: I don't know how problematic bug 219703 comment 3 really is, but for the release we should use  "unopkg ... || true"  in the maintainer scripts
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 219703 in writer2latex "Writer2latex 0.5-6 fails to install on Hardy ppc" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219703
<dholbach> all open writer2latex bugs are about maintainer scripts failures
<dholbach> didn't this occur in any other ubiquity installs for anybody?
<pitti> never
<dholbach> it was a dvd-amd64-ubiquity-autoresize-german installation
<pitti> ah, dvd; that might install more, yes
<pitti> soren: hmm, Virtual Machine -> Shutdown broke; it still worked fine last time, now it does nothing
<soren> pitti: Install acpid in your guest.
<pitti> soren: erm -- this is hanging at the BIOS boot prompt
<soren> Shutdown now sends an acpi powerdown event so that you can shut down your guests cleanly without having to log into them.
<pitti> soren: there's a bug: after an OS reboot, it fails to boot from the CD-ROM
<pitti> after a 'hard' reboot it works again
<soren> pitti: That's not a bug :)
<soren> Oh.
<soren> Er..
<pitti> soren: yes, I did the stuff with adding the CD-ROM drive and make it the boot device
<pitti> (it's not the single-shot CD-ROM thing)
<soren> Well, to forcefully shut down a vm, you need to "destroy" it. It's in the menu.
<pitti> so that won't delete my VM, just power it off?
<soren> Yes.
<soren> It destroys the running state of it.
<pitti> destroy sounds dangerous, and non-reversible
<pitti> ah
<pitti> maybe it should be labelled 'power off' or so :)
<soren> YEah, I though about it.
<pitti> soren: ok, thanks, that worked
<pitti> erk, except that it doesn't really; /me pokes
<soren> a) virt-manager is rather well translated, and I'd lose that if I changed it. b) The term is used very consistently in a lot of other places.
<pitti> I get gfxboot, select 'boot from first harddisk', then I get some text which is far too fast to read, and then it's off again
<pitti> bugger
<soren> pitti: When did you create this vm?
<pitti> selecting 'boot from hd' in the details works
<soren> Oh. Hm..
<pitti> soren: about 15 minutes ago, right before I tried a standard desktop install
<soren> I've not seen that before.
<pitti> me neither
<stgraber> mvo: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/result/1562/15 is the link to bug 218191 intentional or just a typing mistake ?
<pitti> anyway, good enough workaround for now
<soren> How can I reproduce it? Create a vm, destroy it, add the cdrom again, tell it to boot from the cd, start?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 218191 in bzr "paramiko.SSHException: Server connection dropped" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218191
<soren> pitti: Oh, you're trying to boot from the hd? /me is confused
<mvo> stratus: let me check
<pitti> soren: the install finished, so I want to test it
<pitti> soren: usually I always boot from the CD and select "boot from first HD" in the CD's gfxboot menu
<pitti> soren: that way I never need to take out the CD
<pitti> or change the boot priority
<mvo> stgraber: typo, thanks - updated
<soren> pitti: Ohh!
<soren> pitti: Yeah, that's probably an extboot (kvm bios) problem.
<dholbach> pitti: bug 220911 - wdyt?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220911 in writer2latex "Maintainer scripts of openoffice.org-writer2latex fail" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220911
<pitti> dholbach: what is that unopkg anyway? also, that would require new DVD builds, right?
<pitti> calc: still awake by any chance? do you know what this unopkg thing is?
<pitti> dholbach: as a hackish workaround it would be ok
<dholbach> pitti: it handles openoffice extensions
<dholbach> pitti: it's pragmatic - I doubt we have the time to dive into ooo code to figure out why unopkg fails :-(
<pitti> dholbach: absolutely
<dholbach> it'd be nice if somebody confirmed that openoffice.org-writer2latex works with the patch in all kinds of package installation scenarios
<seb128> dholbach: is the package working if those commands break?
<dholbach> seb128: that's something I guess only calc can answer - maybe doko too
<dholbach> doko: what do you think about bug 220911?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220911 in writer2latex "Maintainer scripts of openoffice.org-writer2latex fail" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220911
<seb128> otherwise we should as well drop the package from the DVD for now
<dholbach> I don't know if we have any other unopkg calls in any maintainer scripts
<pitti> slangasek: still awake? I guess you are not too excited about rebuilding DVDs for bug 220911?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220911 in writer2latex "Maintainer scripts of openoffice.org-writer2latex fail" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220911
<pitti> dholbach: but if that means that all DVD installations fail, we probably have to do it
<doko> dholbach: hmm, the better fix would be to depend on openoffice.org-java-common, gij | java-gcj-compat | openjdk-6-jre | java2-runtime
<dholbach> openoffice.org-base.preinst
<dholbach> openoffice.org-common.list
<dholbach> openoffice.org-common.md5sums
<dholbach> openoffice.org-common.postinst
<dholbach> openoffice.org-common.preinst
<dholbach> openoffice.org-core.list
<dholbach> openoffice.org-core.md5sums
<dholbach> openoffice.org-core.postrm
<dholbach> openoffice.org-filter-mobiledev.preinst
<dholbach> openoffice.org-java-common.preinst
<doko> IMO it's really the missing java stuff, or are openoffice.org-java-common and gij installed on the CD?
<dholbach> openoffice.org-officebean.preinst
<dholbach> openoffice.org.postinst
<dholbach> openoffice.org.preinst
<dholbach> openoffice.org-writer2latex.postinst
<dholbach> openoffice.org-writer2latex.preinst
<dholbach> openoffice.org-writer2latex.prerm
<dholbach> openoffice.org-writer.preinst
<dholbach> ttf-opensymbol.postinst
<dholbach> ttf-opensymbol.postrm
<dholbach> that's where unopkg turns up on my installed system
<doko> s/CD/DVD/ ?
<dholbach> doko: what will realistically be broken on an installed system if unopkg fails?
<doko> IMO it's really the missing java stuff, or are openoffice.org-java-common and gij installed on the DVD?
<doko> dholbach: ^^^
<dholbach> doko: just doing a reinstallation on the dvd, will respond in a sec
<doko> To avoid another upload of OOo, it would be better to seed it for the DVD
<dholbach> doko: on the booted live image of the dvd, gij and openoffice.org-java-common are installed, not sure if they get installed during the installation process though
<doko> dholbach: I don't know either, don't have any DVD test cases assigned ;-)
<dholbach> doko: I'll let you know in a sec
<mvo_> but if it fails there are certainly some depends wrong?
<doko> dholbach: you should be able to Run the letter wizard in writer as well
<pitti> doko: it's not OO.o itself, just the writer2latex source
<pitti> it doesn't affect CDs, just the DVDs
<aragua> hi
<doko> pitti: yes, I know, but the better solution would be to add the dependency to writer2latex instead of ignoring the error code
<pitti> doko: right, I wasn't questioning that
<pitti> if that helps
<pitti> weird that this didn't turn up during RC testing
<pitti> soren: is it possible somehow to configure a maximum resolution of the VM graphics card?
<soren> pitti: Not without patching vgabios.
<pitti> with all this jumping around, it is very hard to operate the guest when it has the same resolution as the host
<pitti> or, alternatively, a real fullscreen mode
<soren> pitti: You can change the x config in the guest, of course.
<pitti> soren: sure, I usually do the xrandr thing (prefs -> screen resolution)
<pitti> but getting there is hard enough :)
<pitti> but that's probably more a VNC viewer (vinagre?) bug
<soren> vinagre, virt-viewer, and virt-manager all use gtk-vnc.
<soren> So if you're using virt-manager, vinagre has nothing to do with it.
<pitti> ah
<dholbach> hum... in the second run (de-amd64-dvd-ubiquity-oem-erasedisk) it did not fail
<mvo_> thekorn: hey! could you please renew my bughelper-dev membership?
<thekorn> mvo_: done
<mvo_> thekorn: thanks!
<dholbach> cjwatson, evand: oem-config proposed a US keyboard (dvd-de-ubiquity-oem installation) although I chose de everywhere else before - do you know if that's a known bug? do you need any more info?
<dholbach> ah, might be bug 219209
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 219209 in oem-config "United States keymap suggested for United Kingdom" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219209
<dholbach> nevermind
<calc> aiui unopkg usually fails due to lock in root's .openoffice.org2 directory
<calc> removing that directory then uninstalling/reinstalling the package in most cases fixes the issue
<dholbach> calc: that was during a new installation
<pitti> calc: hm, that shouldn't be a problem for fresh ubiquity installations from the DVD, though?
<calc> probably not
<calc> unopkg is so buggy though that there is a bug on OOo bugtracker to rewrite it as well, so it probably fails for all sorts of reasons :(
<dholbach> in any case the maintainer scripts shouldn't fail :/
<dholbach> what do we do about it?
<calc> dholbach: it also doesn't return reliable return codes :\
 * dholbach does another amd64-dvd-ubiquity-de-autoresize installation
<calc> i guess the only thing we really can is drop the package from the install
<dholbach> doko: what do you think?
<calc> it doesn't always fail, but doesn't always suceed either
<dholbach> I personally feel that a every-now-and-then "prerm failed - WAAAAAAAAH" popup during the installation should be fixed before the release :-/
<doko> sure, dropping it would be the best thing. we can ignore the errors as well. calc: how das w2l behave if it install scripts failed?
<calc> doko: not sure, it hasn't failed to install for me before
<dholbach> calc, doko: does unopkg work at all? this is on my amd64 normal machine (after installation of writer2latex)
<dholbach> daniel@bert:~$ dpkg -l openoffice.org-writer2latex | grep ^ii
<dholbach> ii  openoffice.org-writer2latex                0.5-6                                              Writer/Calc to LaTeX/XHTML converter extension for OpenOffice.org
<dholbach> daniel@bert:~$ /usr/lib/openoffice/program/unopkg list
<dholbach> all deployed user packages:
<dholbach> <none>
<dholbach> daniel@bert:~$
 * calc had thought it only failed on old install cases
<calc> dholbach: shows none for me too but i do have writer2latex successfully installed
<calc> er i thought i did
<calc> looks like i uninstalled it at some point, reinstalling now to test again
<dholbach> so either the call in the writer2latex maintainer scripts is broken or unopkg itself
<calc> its unopkg aiui, i talked to Rene about it a couple days ago when i saw the first reports about it failing
<calc> i don't think he even realized it would fail on a completely fresh install though
<calc> Setting up openoffice.org-writer2latex (0.5-6) ...
<calc> Adding extension /usr/lib/openoffice/share/extension/install/writer2latex.uno.pkg... done.
<dholbach> yes, I got that too
<calc> still shows <none> for whatever reason
<calc> has support for saving in latex format
<calc> hmm still has it even with it removed though, hmm
<calc> unless it didn't properly remove
<dholbach> unopkg list --shared       has some output though
<dholbach> calc: ^
<calc> ah
<dholbach> so I guess unopkg seems to work fine - it's just the maintainer scripts that fail because of some reason
<calc> it doesn't always register properly, which is the problem
<calc> hmm, has an idea
<pitti> soren: erk; someone apparently seeded virt-viewer to server ship without an MIR
<pitti> soren: can you please remove it from the seeds?
<pitti> soren: and libvirt-bin binary is still in universe and thus it didn't make it to the server CDs
<pitti> soren: I can promote it now, but would we want to rebuild the server ISOs for that?
 * calc sees if it will fail to install for him now
<calc> well it might not
<calc> i wonder if these packages using unopkg need to predepend on the java stuff
 * calc isn't sure if unopkg works right without it or not
<calc> it looks like it does, unopkg list --shared still returns but is empty since w2l is uninstalled
<calc> ok removing all java then reinstalling w2l still made it install properly
<pitti> calc: apparenlty hyphen is not used by anything in main, so it wants to go back to universe; didn't you want me to promote it a while ago, for something?
<calc> pitti: it should be being used for openoffice.org-hyphenation-en-us(?)
<pitti> calc: right, but that itself is built by hyphen, too
<calc> i was going to use the lib but once i built with it, found out the lib itself had some bugs that needed to be fixed and was too late to have a new verison synced
<pitti> calc: and openoffice.org-hyphenation-en-us has no reverse dependencies anywhere
<soren> pitti: I'm not sure. Strictly speaking, that would invalidate the testing that's already been done with the server cd's I support?
<pitti> soren: right
<soren> s/support/suppose/
<calc> ah ok drop it then, it was supposed to be in one of the l-s-e packages aiui
<pitti> calc: since that's on the CD, too late now; but WDYT if I seed it to supported now to keep it in main, and we update l-s-en in an SRU?
<mvo_> pitti: hm, it maybe not ideal to move it back now because for dapper->hardy upgrade without universe enabled it maybe needed - a big maybe I would have to test to be sure
<pitti> mvo_: for 'it' being what?
<calc> pitti: yea that would be good
<mvo_> openoffice.org-hyphenation (or did I missing something?)
<pitti> calc: is there a bug# about it? we should milestone it for .1 then
<pitti> mvo_: right, I think above proposal is better anyway
<soren> I'm not sure. I'd like to get Rick's opinion.
<calc> pitti: language-support-writing-en should have a depends on it
<dholbach> grrrrr, didn't fail now
<calc> pitti: it was in there for 0409 and was removed for 0410
<calc> pitti: it was added/removed due to buggy openoffice.org-hyphenation/hypen interaction
<calc> pitti: but those issues have been resolved so we can add it back now
<calc> pitti: actually it was added in 0229 then removed 0303 then added in 0409 then removed in 0410, heh ping pong
<pitti> calc: I created bug 220949
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220949 in language-support-writing-en "should depend on openoffice.org-hyphenation-en-us " [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220949
<pitti> calc: milestoned for 8.04.1
<calc> pitti: ok thanks
<slomo> pitti: yes, i know that already... joe wreschnig seems to have some personal problems with me since debian bug #421167 (i was responsible for introducing a regression in gstreamer which broke his application)
<ubotu> Debian bug 421167 in gstreamer0.10 "quodlibet: fails to start, claiming 'filesrc' cannot be found" [Grave,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/421167
 * calc headed back for bed, 5am here
<calc> be back in a few hours
 * pitti hugs slomo
<calc> call me if needed :)
 * slomo hugs pitti
<pitti> calc: seeded
<pitti> calc: sleep well
 * dholbach hugs slomo too
 * slomo hugs dholbach :)
<njpatel> guys, just ran into a pulseaudio bug after an update: music won't play unless your root, the work-around is to run pulseaudio as root. Any ideas?
<slomo> pitti, dholbach: well, while we're at it i could as well file this bug in debian, which will probably lead to get it changed upstream too ;)
<dholbach> doko, pitti: added a new comment to bug 220911
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220911 in writer2latex "Maintainer scripts of openoffice.org-writer2latex fail" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220911
<pitti> dholbach: thanks
<dholbach> I'll do another installation and see if I can reproduce it - the syslog should be able to shed light on the order of removal of packages
<doko> cjwatson: is there a way to install from a usb stick without having a cdrom connected? the installer insists on a CD ROM driver
<ogra> doko, heh, i just added a spec suggestion for USB key install by default :)
<laga> are the archives completely frozen now? i seem to recall today 8am UTC, but i'm not sure
<pitti> laga: universe, yes; main, pretty much barring installation failure fixes
<doko> seb128: the CD burner doesn't offer me anymore the option to burn with a slower speed. is this intended?
<dholbach> doko: which java does unopkg use in a standard installation?
<seb128> doko: lshal | grep write_speeds
<doko> $ lshal | grep write_speeds
<doko>   storage.cdrom.write_speeds = {'1764'} (string list)
<seb128> doko: ok, so not my bug, dunno if that's hal or linux though
<doko> didn't change the drive, did work in gutsy
<doko> ok
<seb128> doko: maybe pitti has an idea on the issue
<seb128> the choices are limited on my boxes too
<cjwatson> dholbach: if it isn't clear, the reason a bunch of prerms are run in this context is that DVD ubiquity installs work by copying a huge slew of packages over (including lots of language support packages) and then removing the ones that aren't needed
<cjwatson> doko,laga: have either of you read the instructions in the installation guide for this?
<cjwatson> err, sorry
<cjwatson> doko,ogra: ^--
<cjwatson> I do think we should make it *easier* for 8.10 but it is possible
<TheMuso> C
<cjwatson> doko: https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/installation-guide/i386/boot-usb-files.html (for 7.04 but should still be valid)
<doko> cjwatson: no, just https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromUSBStick
<ogra> cjwatson, i think we should have a script that builds dd'abe daylies :)
<ogra> *able
<cjwatson> doko: ah, it's a bit different for desktop CDs. I'd advise using the installation-guide method for now because I understand better how to debug that if it goes wrong :)
<doko> cjwatson: I was trying to do the iso tests on my new toy :)
<ogra> doko, what do you have ?
<cjwatson> ogra: I'm concerned about essentially doubling the disk space requirements on cdimage by converting everything to USB images; what I want to do is provide a program for both Linux and Windows that transforms a given CD image into a USB image
<cjwatson> we discussed this a bit, informally, at Boston
<doko> ogra: TP X61
<cjwatson> doko: you said "the installer insists on a CD ROM driver"; was that alternate or desktop?
<doko> cjwatson: alternate
<doko> after connecting an USB CD ROM, it did want to have the CD
<ogra> cjwatson, yeah, right, i remember
<ogra> doko, TP == touchscreen ?
<doko> ogra, tablet, but no multitouch
<ogra> cool
<cjwatson> doko: can you try it with the installation-guide method?
<ogra> i have a exoc osiris 621 since two week ...
<doko> cjwatson: will do
<cjwatson> thanks
<ogra> touchscreen is cool until you forget about it and want to wipe any dirt off the screen :P
<ogra> and suddleny have a wndow hanging on your fingertip :P
 * calc couldn't fall back asleep :\
<okaratas> hello
<calc> too many screwed up hours lately
<calc> i'll take a nap later today
<cjwatson> pitti: oof, we forgot to sync rescue ...
<pitti> cjwatson: yeah, I noticed yesterday night :/
<pitti> cjwatson: now it's something for .1, I figure
<dholbach> is ubiquity supposed to say "you don't have enough disk space" somewhere?
<cjwatson> dholbach: yeah
<dholbach> for me it just crashed: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7837
<cjwatson> there might be border cases where it doesn't manage it; I noticed something similar during RC testing and filed a bug
<dholbach> logs up at http://daniel.holba.ch/install
<cjwatson> definitely a bug, you might as well file it
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ lsusb -t
<ogra> cannot open /proc/bus/usb/devices, No such file or directory (2)
<ogra> uuuh
<ogra> why does that look in /proc ?
<dholbach> cjwatson: on ubiquity itself?
<pitti> ogra: ugh, bug
<cjwatson> dholbach: yes
<ogra> pitti, yep
<dholbach> cjwatson: thanks
<ogra> pitti, bug #220962
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220962 in ubuntu "lsusb -t still searches in /proc for devices" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220962
<dholbach> hi slangase` :)
<calc> dholbach: i don't think debian 468202 is exactly the same issue, since that is dealing with upgrade problems (afaict)
<ubotu> Debian bug 468202 in openoffice.org-writer2latex "subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [Grave,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/468202
<dholbach> calc: I added another comment about a missing pre-depends
<doko> cjwatson: this is nasty: # zcat boot.img.gz > /dev/sda1  (maybe write /dev/sdN1 and explain what device to choose)?
<calc> ok reading the rest of the lp bug
<dholbach> cjwatson: filed it as bug 220961
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220961 in ubiquity "ubiquity crashes instead of notifying the user of not enough disk space" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220961
<cjwatson> doko: sure, installation-guide bug?
<calc> dholbach: hmm well not sure if that was doko or me (or both) that thought it might be ooo-java-common but it depends on it and it worked with my purging all java and doing a reinstall
<cjwatson> calc: it'll be the order in which ubiquity happens to purge things, I should think
<calc> cjwatson: hmm?
<dholbach> I'll try harder to reproduce bug 220911
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220911 in writer2latex "Maintainer scripts of openoffice.org-writer2latex fail" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220911
<calc> dholbach: it could be the ooo-common issue though if unopkg isn't fully working yet when w2l is installed
<calc> dholbach: but the error people are getting is that the binary failed, which yea its unpacked at that point, but maybe not good enough(?)
 * ogra wonders if that amd64 qemu install will ever finish ... sitting at grub install at 50% since 1h (but isnt crashed)
<calc> dholbach: when i did my testing i didn't test with all of OOo removed just all of the java bits and all of the system java removed as well
<dholbach> calc: without any debug output that's very hard to say
<calc> dholbach: yea
<calc> i'll do a complete purge of OOo and reinstall and see if i can trigger it
<dholbach> still the pre-depends should make sense, no?
<calc> dholbach: yea probably so
<cjwatson> calc: exact order of removal could easily affect whether unopkg has all the stuff it needs to work right
<cjwatson> calc: the bug is on package *removal*, not installation
<calc> cjwatson: oh?
<cjwatson> calc: ubiquity installs everything on the livefs and then removes the stuff it doesn't need, which includes language support packages, which will include a bunch of OOo stuff
<calc> i thought they were speaking of it failing to install when installing w2l from dvd
<cjwatson> calc: the "installation" from the livefs consists of copying the livefs to the installed system, file by file, and then removing packages that aren't necessary
<cjwatson> very few packages are actually installed using dpkg in that environment
<calc> so unopkg failed in removal of w2l then?
<dholbach> yes in the prerm
<calc> ah ok
<calc> still doesn't make sense but perhaps slightly more than an install failing
<dholbach> right now I only saw this in 1 of 4 dvd installations but still I find it highly problematic to have popup going "prerm X failed"
<calc> dholbach: yea
<dholbach> I know that my mom would think about it
<mvo|dsltrouble> caci: there is a bit of the dpkg log in the bugreport (german though)
<calc> heh looks like not all of the strings are properly translated to german :)
<caci> mvo|dsltrouble: ?
<calc> caci: improper nick completion
 * mvo|dsltrouble goes and tries to find a better network connection
<calc> i think i will download the dvd to play with a bit
<calc> this was seen on the ubuntu dvd, correct?
 * calc is going to download the i386 dvd and test it a bit, sees in the bug report it was on amd64 dvd
<calc> 3.5hr to download, ouch
<ogra> calc, if you have desktop and alternate there, cat'ing alternate to the end of the desktop iso and using that as base for an rsync gains you something
<cjwatson> mvo__: just to confirm, the plan for upgrades is to update meta-release for 7.10 users as soon as we release 8.04, and meta-release-lts for 6.06 users when we release 8.04.1?
<calc> ogra: i just have the kubuntu cd's right now :\
<calc> i will be getting a larger hard drive soon for my desktop and so will have a local mirror setup soon, whee :)
<calc> then i could do jigdo+rsync i think
<calc> does that generally work?
<stgraber> calc: http://www.sgserv.net/mirror/ may be faster
<calc> stgraber: already saturated my link, only can do ~ 300KB/s due to slow dsl
 * calc wishes he could get FiOS in the area
<calc> http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=79648 <- whee :)
<ubotu> OpenOffice.org bug 79648 in framework "do not use lock file when installing bundled extensions" [Defect,Started: ]
<calc> it looks like that may be the issue and if so is targeted for 3.0
<calc> i added to the report to let them know to not to defer it past 3.0 if at all possible, heh
<calc> since 3.0 will go in 8.10
<ubuntudemon> Hey. Can I do anything to provide more information to this bug ? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/220640 And does anybody know how to use ipw3945 with Hardy's kernel ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220640 in linux "[hardy] iwl3945 + wpasupplicant fails to connect to university network. regression from gutsy (ipw3945+wpasupplicant)" [Undecided,New]
<calc> why do bugs show up as 'status tracked in hardy' is that a new feature of lp?
 * calc is pretty sure he didn't move the bug to just hardy
<pitti> calc: that happens if you nominate a bug for hardy, while it is still the dev release
<pitti> that's not new
<calc> er i don't think i nominated it
<calc> i just said 'fix this here also' for openoffice.org
<calc> on bug 220911
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220911 in writer2latex "Maintainer scripts of openoffice.org-writer2latex fail" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220911
<calc> and it made it automatically as hardy
<calc> looks like caolan has a workaround for the problem
<calc> i can add it for a 8.04.1 update
<calc> he creates a userdir to use for the lockfile and during the install process then kills it later
<calc> so there is no chance for stale lockfile or root owned lockfile, etc when using the --shared bit
<calc> dholbach: i think i found a way to fix the issue for 8.04.1
<calc> dholbach: and looks like it may be properly fixed upstream for 8.10 (3.0)
<soren> pitti: Did you promote libvirt-bin?
<pitti> soren: yes
<soren> pitti: Ok, thanks.
<calc> stupid packet loss
<cjwatson> sigh, you'd have thought that being up-to-date with yesterday's DVD image would help :-/
<calc> how does 8.04.1 work you just upload to proposed then it propagates into 8.04.1?
<pitti> calc: normal SRUs, yes; -updates will be icnluded into .1, not -proposed
<pitti> calc: (and -security, of course)
<calc> pitti: ok
<calc> so will we have test dvds built for 8.04.1 regularly, need some way to test this fix that is likely to explode
<soren> pitti: I suppose this will be done, by putting a hardy-updates directory on the new iso's?
<soren> pitti: And not by merging the updates into hardy proper?
<pitti> soren: the CD build scripts just have -updates and -security repos enabled and take whatever is most current (roughly)
<pitti> soren: I don't know the precise inner workings of those scripts, though
<cjwatson> calc: not sure exactly how regularly, but probably occasionally, yes
<calc> ok :)
<soren> pitti: Ok, no worries. I was just wondering :)
<pitti> soren, calc: oh, for test CDs we can use the -proposed versions, too, BTW
<pitti> but we won't for the released .1
<calc> i don't see the bug myself but it is lockfile issue so test DVDs for users to test this would be very helpful :)
<calc> i'm downloading the current dvd to see if i can get it to fail for me from that
<cjwatson> soren: IIRC (it's been a while since I wrote this) it gets merged onto dists/hardy/ on the CDs, but it definitely doesn't get merged into dists/hardy/ in the archive
<soren> cjwatson: Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up :)
<soren> pitti: I'm on the phone with Rick. He thinks we should respin the server cd's to get libvirt-bin on there.
<pitti> soren: ok; you guys will manage to re-test them in time?
<soren> pitti: What is "in time" exactly?
<pitti> soren: by tomorrow, final release; i. e. ideally by today evening
<soren> pitti: Heheh..
<soren> pitti: Which timezone?
<soren> pitti: Unless it's an Australian one, I'm almost willing to bet we can retest everything by this evening.
<pitti> soren: late European, I'd say; not clearly defined :)
<pitti> soren: ok, give the word, and I press enter
<soren> I think that's doable. We don't have *that* many test cases. heno?
<pitti> 10
<soren> heno: Any objections to respinning the server cd's?
<pitti> soren: I started the respin; we don't have to use them, we can always change back the 'current' symlink :)
<heno> I don't like it because it gives us zero margin -- but retesting the complete set of server CDs in time should be no problem
<pitti> soren: so you can look at the new image, check libvirt-bin, and then we decide
<pitti> heno: since we can always take the current image, and it is fully tested, just producing an alternative doesn't commit us to it, I'd say
<heno> let's set aside the current ones and use those if they break badly
<heno> pitti: indeed :)
<heno> they have complete coverage now
<Hobbsee> heno: if it all breaks, you just get no sleep tonight.
<heno> soren: so yeah, I'm fine with that
<calc> lol
<soren> pitti: Ok, go. :)
<heno> that too
<stgraber> Server is usually one of the first image to be entirely tested, a standard server install takes like 10 minutes here
<calc> Hobbsee: i've been so low on sleep that my body seem to have forgotten how to do it
<xivulon> heno, for the first kernel upgrade or anything that would involve update-initramfs or update-grub after final, would it possible to have a procedure in place so that the changes are tested on loopinstallations (wubi) before release?
<calc> Hobbsee: i woke up at 4:30am after ~ 4-5hr sleep and couldn't go back to sleep
<heno> xivulon: sure. could you email me and davmor2 about that to remind us?
<Amaranth> Heh, sounds like me
<Amaranth> I randomly sleep 4 hours sometime during a 30 hour time span then start again
<xivulon> heno, will do
 * calc bbl, getting breakfast
<Hobbsee> calc: ouch
<zul> my wife would never let me do that
<pitti> heno, soren: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server/daily/20080423.2/, have at it
<pitti> soren: libvirt-bin is there now
<soren> pitti: Thanks muchlyu.
<soren> muchly, even.
<pitti> soren: I'll add that to the tracker, ok?
<pitti> (done)
 * stgraber rsyncs
<soren> If any of you guys want to subscribe me to bugs or assign bugs to me (and I know you do), my launchpad is no longer "shawarma", but "soren".
<pitti> soren: last time I did that I caught a different soren (Hauberg, not you)
<soren> pitti: Precisely.  I got him to scooch over to ~hauberg and I got ~soren. Woo!
<pitti> aah
<doko> why does "Computing the new partitions" take so much time? LVM/entire disk install ...
<ogra> doko, with encryption ?
<ogra> that zeroes out the disk first
<cjwatson> ogra: not any more, not by default
<ogra> ah, k
<ogra> i did try my last one some days ago
<cjwatson> doko: partman is not as efficient as it could be
<doko> ogra: no, encyrption was not offered (network install)
<cjwatson> going through and optimising partman is something we need to do for ubiquity, but obviously needs vast care
<calc> is there a reason it doesn't offer encryption install for desktop cd?
<TheInfinity> calc: because a stable gui for this is not coded until now
<calc> ok
<doko> don't test "hardy" images which you download from https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/installation-guide/i386/boot-usb-files.html :-/
<seb128> doko: why?
<seb128> doko: had an issue using those?
<slangase`> pitti: uh.  does that seriously break all DVD installs?
<seb128> (not that I want to try those)
<soren> seb128: "Hardy" is not spelled "7.04" :)
<seb128> soren: ah ;-)
<seb128> soren: good point indeed ;-)
<soren> ;)
<cjwatson> doko: sorry, should have warned you
<doko> but the feisty install still works =)
<soren> doko: That's good to know :)
<seb128> does anybody know if there is a bug about usplash screen being scrambled on shutdown on amd64?
 * calc lol after reading above
<johanbr> seb128: Could be https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usplash/+bug/127280
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 127280 in usplash "uSplash shutdown screen corrupt post nVidia restricted drivers installation" [Undecided,Invalid]
<pitti> slangasek: not all of them
<seb128> johanbr: the card using is an ati one on this box, so not likely
<pitti> slangasek: it happens far too often, though
<slangasek> pitti: then which ones does it break?
<pitti> slangasek: it seems to depend on sun rays and other random stuff :/
<doko> hmm, grub Error 25, disk read error
<cjwatson> mdke: did you mail a 7.10 installation guide to Matt Nuzum, or did I dream it? I seem to have lost the mail
<cjwatson> oh, never mind, found it
<Mithrandir> soren: how can I get from virt-manager what running kvm with -redir tcp:2222::22 gives me?
<Mithrandir> (forward host port 2222 to guest port 22)
<soren> Mithrandir: You can't.
<Mithrandir> soren: shame, that makes it massively less useful.
<soren> Mithrandir: You can bridge the guest onto your network, though.
<Mithrandir> well, I could do that, but, meh, ugh, gah.
<Mithrandir> then I can't have root passwords like "abcd" any more.
<Mithrandir> I guess I could do that, lock the root account and use shosts or ssh keys.
 * calc bbl, try to get more sleep
<pitti> hmm$ dchroot -c dapper -- lsb_release -d
<pitti> Description:Ubuntu 6.06.2 LTS
<pitti> $ lsb_release -d
<pitti> Description:Ubuntu 8.04
<pitti> shouldn't it say "LTS"?
<pitti> cjwatson, slangasek: ^
<Keybuk> pitti: arguably no
<Keybuk> since only two flavours are LTS
<pitti> ah, only .1 will be LTS?
<Keybuk> Kubuntu won't be an LTS, neither will Xubuntu, Ubuntu Mobile, Ubuntu Studio, etc.
<slangasek> I like Keybuk's explanation, it's way better than the excuses I would have to give :P
<slangasek> is xubuntu dapper an "LTS" either, though?
<Keybuk> I never really liked sticking that in the version number anyway ;)
<Keybuk> it's 8.04, LTS is just a moniker for the extra maintenance and support terms offered by Canonical
<aragua> http://releases.ubuntu.com/releases/edubuntu/8.04/
<aragua> Edubuntu 8.04 LTS (Hardy Heron) Release Candidate
<aragua> sorry, copypaste bug
<cjwatson> that's a good point, is Edubuntu (err, should be Ubuntu Education Edition now, I'll change that) supposed to be LTS? I forget
<cjwatson> mdz: remind me?
<ogra> dapper
<ogra> was
<ogra> so i guess 3 years should apply here as well
<mdz> cjwatson: on the phone, but I do care
<pitti> seb128: FYI, I just tried to salvage the retracers, but somehow fakechroot is almost completely broken; I guess I need to poke that first :/
<ogra> wow, scary NM errors on reboot with an ubiquity-only install
<seb128> pitti: ok
<doko> Riddell: question from a KDE ignorant: how do I enter sleep mode / suspend to disk? (KDE4)
<pitti> calc, asac: mozilla-openoffice.org -- seed or demote? do we want this?
<calc> pitti: isn't it already in universe?
<calc> pitti: was it seeded before?
<pitti> calc: it wants to go to universe, is in main still
<pitti> calc: it was in universe until gutsy
<calc> oh ok
<pitti> demote then, if you don't particularly care?
<calc> i don't think we have enough room to seed at least onto the cd?
<pitti> calc: no, not on the CD; supported at most
 * pitti demotes
<calc> oh ok
<pitti> calc: openoffice.org-evolution has the same problem, but I guess we want to keep that?
<calc> yea
<pitti> it has been in main forever
<pitti> apparently it was depended on by -desktop in the past
<calc> well half supported source is a bit useless?
<pitti> so I'll add it to supported
 * calc isn't sure why sources can be split between main/universe since support is really on a source level, right?
<calc> at least as far as support is concerned its mostly for security fixes
<Riddell> doko: kmenu->leave->hibernate
<calc> can someone add 8.10 to the milestone list?
<Mithrandir> calc: no, not yet.
<superm1> pitti, will you still be able to switch sections on a package in universe w/ it being frozen?  The one that i mentioned to you the other day (bug 220071) has been generating some noise on upgraders.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220071 in myththemes "mythtv-themes dependency problem on upgrade" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220071
<pitti> superm1: can do, but how can a sectio matter so much?
<superm1> metapackages get recommends installed
<superm1> whereas other sections don't
<pitti> ah, that would be it
<pitti> so it should get moved to metapackages?
<superm1> yeah
<superm1> just the single binary package (mythtv-themes)
<pitti> superm1: done
<superm1> thanks a bunch
<alex_joni> is there a way to switch desktop effects off by default?
<alex_joni> I'm setting up a custom LiveCD, and would like the installed systems (and the LiveCD) to have desktop effects switched off
<ivoks> sabayon?
<ivoks> alex_joni: try with sabayon
<alex_joni> sabayon?
<seb128> that's not likely a good way to do that no
 * alex_joni googles
<ivoks> seb128: no?
<seb128> ivoks: really not, no
<ivoks> ok
<ivoks> sorry for misleading
<_MMA_> alex_joni: You could set a gcong key. Set /desktop/gnome/applications/window_manager/default to: /usr/bin/metacity
<seb128> ivoks: sabayon is going to create a custom user profile and extra gconf keys where you just need to change on key
<_MMA_> s/ï»¿gcong/gconf
<alex_joni> _MMA_: cool, will look at that
<alex_joni> gconftool-2 --direct --config-source xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults --type strinc --set /desktop/gnome/applications/window_manager/default "/usr/bin/metacity" ?
<alex_joni> _MMA_: something like that?
<doko> Riddell: I don't see an Hibernate option, while the Ubuntu install does show it.
<_MMA_> alex_joni: Looks correct.
<Riddell> doko: k-menu->leave->anything->hold down mouse on the centre button on the dialogue that pops up?
<alex_joni> _MMA_: obviously without the string/strinc typo.. ok will try, thanks a bunch
<doko> Riddell: this is no UI, that is !Â§%$Â§$ turned off the computer two time before I got it ;-)
<doko> but it looks really well ;-P
<doko> and doesn't work ...
<asac> pitti: ack. demote
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, Have you looked at bug #220817
<cody-somerville> ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220817 in xubuntu-meta "Xubuntu Hardy: ubiquity installs Open Office during installation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220817
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: unfixable for hardy, AFAICS
<slangasek> cody-somerville: what part of OOo is getting pulled in, precisely?
<cjwatson> as far as I can see it *should* just be some help/l10n packages and -common
<cjwatson> but it's possible something went wrong
 * slangasek nods
 * cody-somerville cries.
<cody-somerville> What changed to make this start occuring?
<cody-somerville> *occurring
<cjwatson> it's also possible somebody overreacted to seeing openoffice.org-something in the progress bar ;-)
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: been there forever
<cjwatson> ubiquity might be more competently installing language-support-* now, but that's about it
 * cody-somerville shall research more.
<slangasek> "apt-get install language-support-ca" gives me openoffice.org-l10n-ca openoffice.org-l10n-common, nothing else
<ogra> language-support-de Depends: gimp-help-de, openoffice.org-help-de, openoffice.org-l10n-de, thunderbird-locale-de
<slangasek> ah, de pulls in quite a bit more, yes
<slangasek> though still only -common and -core, which seems to exclude the apps themselves
<ogra> openoffice.org-help-de Depends: openoffice.org-l10n-de, openoffice.org-writer | language-support-translations-de
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> the last one should probably be the other way round
<slangasek> ogra: no, it's right
<slangasek> it reads as "install openoffice.org-writer as a dependency, unless installed as part of language-support-translation-de"
<ogra> ah, k, thx
<ogra> indeed language-support-translations-de should be there anyway
 * calc had thought he fixed that
 * calc looks at the bug to see what it is
<calc> ah nothing useful in the bug report, /me reads scrollback
<ogra> calc, all fine
<ogra> i guess the user saw openoffice.org-l10n-$lang rushing by and screamed
<cody-somerville> openoffice.org-core, -common, -help-en-gb, -help-en-us, hyphenation,-l10n-common, -l10n-en-gb, -l10n-en-za, -style-human, -thesaurus-en-au, -thesaurus-en-us
<cody-somerville> so it isn't too bad
<calc> ooo-help-de shouldn't be installing -core
<ogra> -core would be wrong ...
<cjwatson> Package: openoffice.org-thesaurus-de
<cjwatson> Depends: openoffice.org-core (>= 1.9), dictionaries-common (>= 0.10) | openoffice.org-updatedicts
<cjwatson> likewise -thesaurus-de-ch
<calc> i don't see why so much got pulled in for cody-somerville though
<cjwatson> openoffice.org-common Depends: openoffice.org-core
<calc> in particular i don't know why -common -core -style-human got installed for him
<calc> to others are due to language packs
<cjwatson> hmm, yeah, what's going on there
<calc> openoffice.org-thesaurus-de is part of openthesaurus which appears to need ubuntu specific changes
<calc> the other thesaurus packages and they are part of openoffice.org-dictionaries which i did merge
<calc> er /and/i looked at and/
<cjwatson> yeah, I don't see anything in cody-somerville's list that should pull in -common either, if language-support-* are being installed
<cjwatson> it could be a bug in ubiquity's python-apt-based resolution algorithm, though I rather hope not
<calc> maybe some bad seed for Xubuntu?
<cody-somerville> It isn't seeded
<calc> hmm then its got to be something confused about what it should be installing
<calc> at least all the depends lines of the above packages look right
<shane_> hi all
<cjwatson> I'm grabbing the Xubuntu daily now, but it'll take a while
<cjwatson> hi shane_
<cody-somerville> shane_ is the reporter of bug #220817
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 220817 in xubuntu-meta "Xubuntu Hardy: ubiquity installs Open Office during installation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/220817
<calc> shane_: will it let you remove the -core -common -style-human packages without causing a mess?
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ apt-cache rdepends openoffice.org-thesaurus-en-gb
<ogra> <openoffice.org-thesaurus-en-gb>
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ apt-cache rdepends openoffice.org-thesaurus-de
<ogra> openoffice.org-thesaurus-de
<ogra> Reverse Depends:
<ogra>   language-support-writing-de
<ogra> hmm
<ogra> language-support-writing-de is depended on by language-support-de
<ogra> so the dep cjwatson pointed out before pull in -common then but inly on non en-gb
<ogra> *only
<shane_> calc: it requires that language-support-en, -support-translations-en, -support-writing-en be removed...
<calc> er there is no en-gb in my apt-cache(?)
<calc> shane_: interesting
<ogra> calc, hmm, right, i wonder where apt-cache search got it from
<cjwatson> ogra: I think we've established that -de is different here
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ apt-cache search openoffice.org-thesaurus|grep gb
<ogra> openoffice.org-l10n-en-gb - English_british language package for OpenOffice.org
<calc> -de is known broken
<calc> -en should work
<calc> ok i'm going to purge out OOo here and see what i can do to make it only install the required bits
<calc> maybe i can find out why it picks the others
<cjwatson> calc: I can reproduce it in a debootstrapped chroot
<calc> cjwatson: ah ok
<cjwatson> just trying to narrow it down from there
<calc> ok
<shane_> calc: language-support-translations-en, -support-writing-en depend on some OO packages...
<cjwatson> (don't let me stop you)
<calc> shane_: yes, it should be installing the l10n related packages, but those shouldn't require the rest of OOo to be installed
<cjwatson> shane_: we know that, but those packages are supposed to have alternative dependencies on language-support-* to prevent OOo being mandatory)
<shane_> ok
 * calc building a chroot as well
<calc> cjwatson: does it need extra special logic to make it not install by default as opposed to allow removal of OOo?
<cjwatson> calc: don't understand the question?
<calc> cjwatson: eg for this
<calc> Depends: openoffice.org-common (>= 1:2.4.0) | language-support-translations-en, openoffice.org-common (<< 1:2.4.0.1) | language-support-translations-en, openoffice.org-l10n-common (>= 1:2.4.0)
<calc> does it have to do something special to not install openoffice.org-common but instead just leave it with the language-support-translations-en ?
<cjwatson> that *ought* to be sufficient, given that language-support-translations-en is being installed and should satisfy those alternatives
<cjwatson> if it isn't, it's my contention that it's an apt bug
<calc> ah ok
<ogra> unless the deps are resolved wrongly
<ogra> heh
<cjwatson> the way it's supposed to operate (AIUI) is to mark the top-level packages for installation and then, for each broken package, iterate through its dependencies and resolve any that aren't satisfied by trying to install alternatives in turn
<cjwatson> the fact that language-support-translations-en is already there up the tree ought to stop it doing anything with those items
<calc> ok
<cjwatson> but since it involves some somewhat circular logic this might break
<ogra> cjwatson, i had something similar with the intel tpm server when adding libpg-java to the deps (Depends: java-gcj-compat | java1-runtime | java2-runtime) pulled in gcj stuff all the time even though java2-runtime was installed
<ogra> dropping the dep didnt want to do that anymore
<ogra> it sounds somewhat related
<zoredache> cjwatson: you said that there are alt depends on language-support-?? to preven things from OOo being installed?   the language-support-en depends on several openoffice packages
<calc> zoredache: which ones... you mean the l10n ones that are supposed to be installed?
<ogra> zoredache, only translation stuff ...
<calc> zoredache: read scrollback
<cjwatson> zoredache: drill down to the next level of dependencies and you should see what I mean
<calc> zoredache: things like openoffice.org-l10n-en-gb are supposed to be installed, those aren't supposed to be pulling in openoffice.org-common though
<zoredache> that, and I should make sure I am looking at the correct release...
<ogra> heh
 * calc will be glad once he has a local mirror, building chroots won't take forever
<cjwatson> I reassigned the bug to apt
<cjwatson> dinnertime
<_MMA_> cjwatson: Can this be something we try to sort at UDS? Language support and it's depends, how it's structured? Seems to be a bit of a mess for Xubuntu, Studio and derivatives that would like to lose OO.o/Firefox.
<calc> _MMA_: appears to be just a bug in apt at this point
<calc> _MMA_: the potential to lose the openoffice.org-l10n stuff as well more or less depends on apt recommends handling which got dropped for hardy
<_MMA_> calc: This case yes. But there are still other issues surrounding how the language support is done.
<calc> if we installed recommends by default then we could seed the ooo l10n where it is wanted and it would get installed but not on the others since it wouldn't be on their cds
<calc> which was what i was wanting to do for hardy but apt recommends didn't make it in time
<calc> otherwise we would probably need language packs on a per derivative basis
<_MMA_> Isn't gobuntu still pulling Firefox?
<shane_> calc: my 2 cents... isnt the fact that the l10n packages depend on -common the whole prob? why can we just remove this dependency?
 * calc doesn't know about firefox
<calc> i'm OOo maintainer so that is why i know about that bot
<calc> er bit
<_MMA_> That's what I mean about "other issues".
<ogra> shane_, they dont depend on common thats the prob here :)
<ogra> shane_, "openoffice.org-common (>= 2.0) | language-support-writing-en"
<calc> shane_: well it might, but apt shouldn't be installing it at all currently so there is a bug that isn't OOo's fault ;)
<ogra> thats an "OR" dependency and the latter should already be there
<calc> shane_: what ogra said above :)
<ogra> the probem is the dependency resolution, not the dependency
<calc> the | or breakage is probably causing other problems as well
<shane_> ah ok... i getit
<ogra> right, that smells rather evil
<_MMA_> ï»¿calc: But yes. We (Studio, Xubuntu) were thinking about making an alt language support package that we could seed without unwanted bits. But there still will be other dependencies to work out. Hence me wanting a UDC chat. :)
<_MMA_> *UDS
<ogra> _MMA_, if apt supports recommends that should all be solved easily in intrepid
<calc> _MMA_: probably would be better to talk to mvo about getting recommends into intrepid then that probably wouldn't be needed
<calc> _MMA_: we could then demote OOo/firefox/etc into recommends (i think)
<calc> of course depending on how recommends installation is handled it might not solve it
<_MMA_> Right.
<calc> if we treat recommends as should be installed when you get network access then it wouldn't solve the problem
<calc> _MMA_: so if a UDS session about recommends pops up you should go to it :)
<calc> _MMA_: and drag me along
<_MMA_> Yep. :)
<_MMA_> I still wonder how all the "free-formness" is gonna work. I guess we'll see.
<calc> free-form?
 * calc thought the UDS was going to be set more in stone to avoid the meetings getting bumped like last time
<calc> caused lots of confusion at UDS Boston
<_MMA_> calc: Keybuk mentioned no specs will be marked for Prague. Something like there will be a white board to make the schedule daily.
<calc> ah ok
<calc> well as long as it doesn't change in the middle of the day it should be fine
<calc> or in the middle of a meeting ;)
<_MMA_> The rational being the driver pretty much has their mind made up already. Maybe he can jump in and explain better.
<Keybuk> the UDS will be both
<Keybuk> the platform, desktop, server, etc. teams (canonical and community) have already drawn up the lists of topics they want to discuss
<Keybuk> and will schedule those by hand before the event
<Keybuk> other rooms will be available throughout the event for free-form scheduling
<mjg59> Keybuk: Hm. Do you know where those discussions took place?
<pwrquest> i'm running hardy preview, and i've run updates. Does this mean i'll have hardy stable when it comes out? Or do i have to download the ISO and install all over again?
<Keybuk> mjg59: within the teams
<calc> pwrquest: if you updated in the past couple days it should be the same as hardy final
<_MMA_> pwrquest: You're fine. Just update.
<Keybuk> it's probably worth noting that only two of the teams have returned list of topics so far ;)
<Keybuk> so if you haven't seen discussion from kernel, server, mobile, etc. that's ok - they haven't actually done it yet
<pwrquest> calc: thats what i wanted to hear.. thanks.
<mjg59> Keybuk: Ah, a definition of "already drawn up" that I was previously unaware of :)
<Keybuk> mjg59: I mucked my tenses up
<Keybuk> "will have already drawn up"
<mjg59> Yeah, that's fine
<Keybuk> I expect we won't get the schedule done until the friday before
<Keybuk> I know that Jorge has mailed everyone from the community who's attending
<Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Intrepid/Brainstorm?highlight=%28intrepid%29
<calc> cjwatson: license updated
<cjwatson> calc: thanks
<cjwatson> _MMA_: ArneGoetje is the main contact for language support stuff
<mvo> calc, _MMA_: apt will install recommends in intrepid
<popey> Keybuk: you know the links are busted on that brainstorm page?
<_MMA_> cjwatson: Thanx.
<popey> oh, no not all
<Keybuk> popey: no ;)
 * popey fix0rs, yay wikis
<popey> typical, only broken link was to the brainstorm thing _I_ added! :)
<calc> shane_: we found the problem and updated the bug report
<calc> shane_: rather mdz found it after the rest of us were blind ;-)
 * calc hugs mdz 
<shane_> calc: :) so does that mean it will be fixed to the final release?
<shane_> *for
<ogra> archive is closed
<shane_> argh..
<cjwatson> shane_: it's a possibility for 8.04.1
<cjwatson> since the dependency changes involved appear to be small
<calc> shane_: archive has been closed for several days, so not for 8.04 but i have marked it as 8.04.1
<calc> there are other bugs to fix in OOo for 8.04.1 already found so i can probably stick that one in as well
 * calc tries to take a nap
<shane_> actually i should have brought up earlier because it was present in gutsy as well... i found it while trying to remaster a cd... when i saw xubuntu hardy came without OOo by default i thought it wud've been fixed
<laga> what happens to uploads to universe which didn't make it in before the hard freeze happened?
<cjwatson> Keybuk: patches.ubuntu.com/by-release/atomic/ubuntu/ seems to have stopped updating
<cjwatson> laga: they'll be rejected and will need to be reuploaded to hardy-proposed if appropriate for SRUs
<laga> ok, thanks
<cjwatson> Keybuk: (I noticed that http://patches.ubuntu.com/by-release/atomic/ubuntu/s/scim/ doesn't have the most recent three uploads)
<laga> mdz: just wondering. do you still use mythtv? you used to package it back in 2004/05
<Keybuk> cjwatson: it has stopped updating
<Keybuk> debian master exploded $TIME ago
<Amaranth> mjg59: Didn't you make the "Enable touchpad" option?
<mdz> laga: I don't even have a TV anymore, sorry
<Keybuk> mdz: I should hope not; such things need a licence ;)
<mjg59> Amaranth: No
<Keybuk> mjg59: err @ livejournal ... isn't that old news? :p
<mjg59> Keybuk: Yeah, but it never got fixed :p
<Keybuk> mjg59: it's only arguably broken ;)
<mdz> cjwatson: what does this language-support issue mean for xubuntu 8.04?
<cjwatson> mdz: it means they get to download a bit more during installation
<cjwatson> assuming they connected the network
<cjwatson> I don't think it justifies panic
<mdz> cjwatson: does it justify delaying until the next oo.o update?
<mdz> given that xubuntu folks seem to care about gnome libraries getting pulled in, oo.o seems like it might be a concern for them
<cjwatson> mdz: I think that's cody-somerville's decision to make
<cjwatson> (or the Xubuntu community's in general)
<mdz> cody-somerville: ^
<Skiessi> a stupid bug, adding some space before the actual address in nautilus address bar causes an error and doesn't say why
<Skiessi> *bug:
<Skiessi> too late to fix it?
<cjwatson> I'm afraid so
<cjwatson> please ensure that it's filed in Launchpad
<cjwatson> we have frozen, and built and tested (almost) all images, and will only be accepting changes for absolute showstoppers; at this point they would probably have to be serious enough to delay the release
<seb128> that seems a minor issue
<seb128> I don't think many users types address in nautilus and those who do probably don't do this mistake often
<Skiessi> but copying and pasteing stuff can cause problems and unnecessary questions for some people
<Skiessi> stuff like urls
<Skiessi> and other addresses
<seb128> you don't often copy urls in nautilus since that's a file browser and not an internet one
<Skiessi> :o that's a bug too, windows has integrated them
<seb128> no, that's a design choice, we have a web browser to do that
<jcastro> I could have sworn I saw that whitespace url bug in upstream gnome bugzilla before
<jcastro> but I can't seem to find it
<seb128> I'm not sure that ever worked and we never got a bug report about it in launchpad, that indicates that the issue doesn't bother so many users
<ogra> its a trivial fix to remove whitespace from a string before processing it i imagine :)
<laga> yes, but is it always wanted? :)
<Keybuk> this seems far too much discussion for such a trivial bug ;-)
 * laga is bored because the archives are frozen ;)
<ScottK2> laga: Think backports.
<laga> yup
<Skiessi> gnome-panel froze/crashed
<Skiessi> I think it shouldn't do that the day before release
<Skiessi> a week before intrepid repository opens?
 * ogra points laga to the ltsp upstream branch :P
<laga> ogra: we should talk first before i try to get my stuff merged
<ogra> well, the ubntu plugin dir is completely ours
<ogra> the only stuff we need to discuss are changes to the commonly shared code
<laga> yes, the initramfs code.
<laga> #ltsp
<mdz> cjwatson: the number of language pack/support packages in the DVD livefs makes the last bit of ubiquity's progress bar even more excruciating
<cjwatson> mdz: I know, it isn't ideal
<cjwatson> mdz: I hope you aren't expecting me to do anything about it for 8.04, though
<mdz> cjwatson: not at all
<mdz> cjwatson: I've just been waiting for a test installation to complete for quite a while
<mdz> cjwatson: I truly didn't realize just how many additional packages there were
<mdz> cjwatson: I just saw libgcj-common in there...
<cjwatson> I'm not entirely sure why libgcj-common would be getting removed
<cjwatson> you ought to be keeping at least one OOo language pack, surely
<cjwatson> unless you're installing in a language that doesn't have that
<mdz> en_GB
<cjwatson> and even then, why is openoffice.org (the full metapackage) getting pulled in for localisation?
<mdz> cjwatson: removing libgcj-common on my installed system doesn't disturb language-*-en
<mdz> or oo.o for that matter
<cjwatson> openoffice.org-hyphenation-{hr,lt,pl} Depends: openoffice.org
<cjwatson> -hr and -pl have alternatives for it
<cjwatson> calc: ^--
<cjwatson> calc: it would be worth fixing at least openoffice.org-hyphenation-lt's dependencies in an SRU, I think
<cjwatson> calc: in fact, I think all three of those could do with | language-support-writing-<language> alternatives
<slytherin> What is the policy for SRU these days. If there is a bug which is cause obex transfer problem from Symbian based phones to PC and it might be fixed by a merge with Debian package, is it likely to get in SRU?
<cjwatson> slytherin: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<mdz> slytherin: it is, as always, a risk/benefit judgement
<cjwatson> slytherin: one thing that can fairly easily be said is that "might" isn't good enough; it needs a high degree of developer confidencec
<cjwatson> -c
<slytherin> cjwatson: The thing is that people have said they tried debian package and it fixed the bug. I myself don't have symbian based phone. All I can do is provide a merged package so that enough testing can be done before even proposing it for SRU.
<cjwatson> slytherin: unless that's the only thing that the Debian package changes, a backport is significantly preferable to a merge
<slytherin> cjwatson: Debian package is a new upstream release (3.30 against Ubuntu's 3.26). So a backport would not be possible. At least from my point of view, since I have no idea how and what all have changed.
<cjwatson> slytherin: somebody definitely has to figure out what the change that fixes the bug was
<cjwatson> we aren't likely to accept a wholesale merge like that for an SRU
<cjwatson> there have been exceptions, but they're few and far between
<cjwatson> slytherin: if you can't, I suggest asking upstream for help
<slytherin> cjwatson: Then I am not the man for that job. I will try to get Tollef's view on this.
<cjwatson> slytherin: my openoffice.org seed changes made powerpc horrifically oversized, fyi
<cjwatson> I might have to yoink that back out if I have time (ports aren't really getting tested anyway ...)
<laga> cjwatson: the mythbuntu disk works now. many thanks
<cjwatson> laga: great!
<cjwatson> just as well, basically no time to fix it if it had been broken ...
<laga> yup. i wasted one hour last night before i realized i forgot to 'bzr push' your fix, though. :)
<slytherin> cjwatson: As of now the powerpc image is at 644M. Why are you saying it got oversized?
<cjwatson> slytherin: because I'm looking at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ports/daily-live/current/ where it's 750M
<cjwatson> gar, previous image got purged too
<slytherin> cjwatson: oops, so there is 100 MB difference between alternate and desktop?
<cjwatson> apparently
<cjwatson> I haven't dug into the reasons yet; I'm sure there was a bit more space than that before
<cjwatson> slytherin: but I suspect I'll just revert the change, which is the appropriate response to (even ports) breakage at this point
<slytherin> cjwatson: yes, you are right. An OOo installed over internet is anyway preferred than overzised images.
<slangasek> :-)
<ogra> well, there is 800M media
<cjwatson> which does mean I have to figure out how to get the publisher to do that without publishing any packages ...
<ogra> its just harder to get
<cjwatson> ogra: given that most powerpc hardware is getting old, it's not appropriate to rely on bleeding-edge media for it
<cjwatson> IMO
<ogra> bleeding edge ?
<cjwatson> you think that all powerpc drives will be able to cope with 800MB media?
<cjwatson> I wouldn't like to make that bet
<ogra> the pack of 10 800M CDRW i have upstairs is from 2002 or so
<twi_> I can confirm that my powerbook feels really OLD nowdays :)
<ogra> and i bought it at the discounter
<seb128> is that normal that the eom temporary user doesn't how its desktop directory?
<cjwatson> seb128: explain?
<ogra> i havent tried my G4 ibook with 800M media ever though
<seb128> cjwatson: the temporary user you have after the installation
<seb128> cjwatson: it doesn't have write permissions on the Desktop directory
<cjwatson> I know what the oem user is
<seb128> cjwatson: it's owned by root:999 when doing a ls -l
<cjwatson> you said "doesn't how" - what was that a typo for?
<seb128> own
<seb128> doh, sorry
<cjwatson> seb128: that's a bug, I thought I'd fixed that
<seb128> s/how/own
<cjwatson> seb128: installation from alternate or desktop?
<seb128> cjwatson: still there on the current i386 image
<seb128> cjwatson: desktop i386
<cjwatson> sigh, ubiquity bug
<evand> oem-config, no?
<mdke> cjwatson: yes, I mailed it but I guess things have been too busy for him to push it. I'll get into gear for the 8.04 stuff soon. I've been thinking about asking for access myself to help.u.c
<cjwatson> evand: no
 * cjwatson piles hate on that particular bit of reimplementation
<cjwatson> mdke: I nudged him after finding the mail
<seb128> cjwatson: do you have a bug number?
<cjwatson> seb128: please file it
<cjwatson> evand: there's a reimplementation of bits of oem-config in ubiquity/scripts/install.py, unfortunately :-/
<mdke> cjwatson: ah, fine. Thanks
<cjwatson> flagged with a TODO and a "great big chemical fire" comment
<evand> right, forgot about that bit until you started piling on the hate.
<evand> indeed :)
<slytherin> cjwatson: time to hit bed. Thanks for all the help on OOo. Best luck for release critical bugs. :-)
<ogra> there are no release critical bugs !
<cjwatson> seb128: actually, don't
<seb128> bug #153648
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 153648 in oem-config "nonfunctional root desktop after oem config" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153648
<cjwatson> seb128: 209683 will do, given a new task
<cjwatson> heh, looks like a dup
<seb128> hum, no, the title looked like it but the description doesn't
<cjwatson> seb128: 153648 could be anything, actually
<seb128> cjwatson: ok, thanks
<cjwatson> I've given it a ubiquity task
<seb128> cjwatson, evand: bug #190029 is quite visible, I guess there is no settings manager running when the oem wizard is run?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 190029 in oem-config "Human theme is not used" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/190029
<slytherin> ogra: I hope it doesn't change in next 24 hours. :-)
<seb128> hum
 * evand investigates
<seb128> and bug #219209 happens in french too
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 219209 in oem-config "United States keymap suggested for United Kingdom" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/219209
<cjwatson> seb128: oem-config-dm does start gnome-settings-daemon
<cjwatson> or at least try to
<cjwatson> seb128: 219209 is all languages, I need to spend a bit of quality time with it
<cjwatson> seb128: help welcome on a way to make it work without starting all of GNOME
<cjwatson> (I did try using gnome-session at one point, but it was horrifically difficult and I never got it working)
<cjwatson> maybe starting gnome-settings-daemon before metacity would do it?
<cjwatson> doesn't seem to be necessary for ubiquity though
<cjwatson> which has very similar code
<seb128> cjwatson: right, g-s-d is running, weird
<seb128> and the key seems to be correct
<seb128> is there a way to start something else on the same screen than the eom wizard?
<cjwatson> er, not easily unfortunately
<cjwatson> actually
<cjwatson> yeah, you can
<seb128> I guess I can modify whatever start the eom command to start something else too?
<cjwatson> switch to tty2 and log in as oem
<cjwatson> then sudo DISPLAY=:0 whatever
<cjwatson> (didn't use to work because oem was deleted, but that's now done later)
<seb128> oh
<seb128> eom is deleted in fact now but I logged using the user I added and ran eom prepare tools again and rebooted so I've standard user available
<seb128> ok, that's a decorator bug you are right, we used to get it in the standard session too but now gnome-session starts the settings daemon before starting the applications
<cjwatson> so would it work if g-s-d were started before metacity?
<seb128> yes, starting g-s-d before would workaround it
<cjwatson> and how come it works in ubiquity?
<cjwatson> (or am I mad and it doesn't?)
<seb128> the standalone ubiquity mode?
<cjwatson> yeah
<evand> you're not mad, it doesn't show up there
<cjwatson> race condition?
<seb128> dunno, do you start things in the same order?
<cjwatson> yes
<seb128> might be a race yes
<cjwatson> at any rate g-s-d is definitely started after metacity
<cjwatson> could be live CD slowness makes us nearly always win the race there
<seb128> when the GNOME session was starting everything in an asynchronous mode only some users had the issue
<TheMuso> I was wondering about that myself when doing the a11y work recently. I thought gnome-session started gsd before the window manager as well.
<seb128> TheMuso: gnome-session does that, but they are not using gnome-session there
<TheMuso> seb128: I know.
<emgent> welcome HARDY!
<bryce> ogasawara: can you take a look at #153425?  It was filed against xorg but from all the comments it seems to be a linux issue, so I've refiled against linux-source-2.6.24.  I don't know if it has all the necessary triaging info.
<ogasawara> bryce:  I'll take a peek, thanks.
<crimsun> bryce: your comment on bug 191027 needs more info, namely, the output from `pulseaudio -vv'
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 191027 in totem ""Failed to connect stream: Invalid argument"" [High,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/191027
#ubuntu-devel 2008-04-24
<bryce> hmm, ok
<elmo> when you select reboot the system in rescue mode, it just dumps you back into the top level menu
<elmo> known bug?  if not, which package should I be looking at, to file a bug on?
<cjwatson> known bug, fixed in Debian, we forgot to do the sync after RC, will fix for 8.04.1
<elmo> k, thx
<cjwatson> bug 218549
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 218549 in rescue "Choosing "Reboot" in rescue menu jumps to main menu -- sync rescue from Debian" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218549
<jjkbj> hi
<ScottK> bryce: Would you have a moment to help me with a release note about multi-monitor support for Kubuntu?  As I understand it with displayconfig all we have is xinerama and that's not so much supported.  If you can give me a few hints, I can make it sound nice.
<bryce> ScottK: sure
<ScottK> Thanks.
<bryce> ScottK: I'm not totally up on where Kubuntu is with xrandr support, but I recall seeing some KDE screenshots that seemed to provide xrandr 1.2 options - is that correct?
<ScottK> For KDE3 we have what displayconfig provides (I assume kde/gtk would be the same).
<bryce> displayconfig uses guidance for its backend, which only supports Xinerama.  I'm not sure if xrandr got added in at a higher level
<ScottK> KDE4 has some kind of xrandr tool, but not AFAIK kde3.
<bryce> ScottK: ah, ok.  for G/Ubuntu we're deprecating our displayconfig-gtk in favor of gnome's Screen Resolution tool, which is xrandr-based.
<ScottK> Right, so if you can help me describe the displayconfig situation, that's what I need.
<ScottK> I know little about X.  I mostly made displayconfig and the back end crash less.
<ScottK> Is there a subset of users that Xinerama will continue to work for?
<bryce> ScottK: ok, so the current situation for you is that for most video drivers, dual screen can be set up only via the 'xrandr' command line tool and/or manual xorg.conf settings
<ScottK> OK.
<bryce> ScottK: the Screen Resolution tool we're adding for Ubuntu relies on gnome-settings-daemon to do the heavy work, which kubuntu would not be using, so that tool would not be of use to kubuntu users
<ScottK> Right.
<bryce> (something I'm fairly bummed about, but since this was RedHat's work for the most part, I didn't really have much influence on that)
<ScottK> I was hoping to be able to say something like, If you have blank types of video then Xinerama will still work and you can use Display and Monitor (displayconfig) otherwise you have to do ...
<ScottK> KDE4 has at least a basic xrandr tool, but I haven't used it.
<bryce> the binary drivers (-nvidia and -fglrx) may still support Xinerama.
<bryce> but they have their own multi-screen setup tools, so it would be better to encourage users to use those, than displayconfig anyway
<ScottK> OK
<bryce> the -nv driver for older model cards still support Xinerama.
<ScottK> OK.
<bryce> ScottK: ATI users can go back to Xinerama by installing the old 6.6.3 version of -ati
<ScottK> OK.
 * ScottK starts to write something up.
<ScottK> bryce: BTW, I'd have been totally screwed during this development cycle by fixing displayconfig if not for the xfix option.  Thanks very much for that.
<bryce> ScottK: for Intel, the legacy -i810 driver supports Xinerama.
<bryce> sure
<ScottK> bryce: What's the official end user type name for the xfix option?
<bryce> ogasawara: bug #216927 also sounds like it may be a kernel bug (iwl3945)
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 216927 in ubuntu "mouse & keyboard became suddenly completely unresponsive" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/216927
<bryce> ScottK, what was the xfix option again?
<ScottK> That's the one where you reboot to the 'restore' option and you get the chance to have the system try to fix your broken X automagically
<bryce> oh, bulletproof-x?
<ScottK> Sounds reasonable.
<bryce> heh, hadn't heard it described as xfix before
<ScottK> That's what it calls itself in the boot menu.
 * calc wants kernel modesetting X, so we can get prettier bootup :)
<calc> plus BSOD feature, whee ;-)
<TheMuso> calc: hehe
<calc> well it will be nice to be able to display the error on the screen instead of just freezing
<calc> but it just sounds very funny :)
<ScottK2> bryce: Comments on http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/64162/ please
 * calc bbl, dinner
<bryce> yeah what fedora put out is really more of a proof of concept - it's not even turned on by default.  So I think it has a long way to go before it's useful.  Still cool to see out in the wild though.
<bryce> ScottK, why don't you leave out the "Bullet Proof X" name from that.  That was always just a code name.  If it's called "xfix" in the boot menu, that's a better name for it
<ScottK2> OK.  It does sound cool though.
<bryce> also I'm suspicious that xfix may be something completely different from BPX
<ScottK2> Up to you.
<ScottK2> OK.
<bryce> yeah leave it out...
<ScottK2> I'll reboot my other laptop to make sure I have it right.
<ScottK2> Three cheers for the forced fsck.  It'll be a while.
<ScottK2> bryce: Any other comments?
<bryce> ScottK: just one...  I don't know your feelings on linking to 3rd party websites, but thinkwiki has the best Xrandr 1.2 config guide I've found so far
<bryce> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Xorg_RandR_1.2
<bryce> I have on my todo list to set up a Ubuntu guide like that... but haven't done it
<ScottK2> I'm all for good information.
<bryce> Debian has http://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce/HowToRandR12 which is good too.
<bryce> but the thinkwiki site addresses Ubuntu more specifically
<ScottK2> It doesn't seem updated for Hardy though.
<pwnguin> its kinda thinkpad specific too
<bryce> hrm
<ScottK2> bryce: What would you think about making a stub wiki page on w.u.c that just links to those two for now.  I'll link to that and you can fill it out over time.
<bryce> alright, well I guess this is as good an opportunity as any to get off my duff and get that guide together.
<ScottK2> Even better.
<bryce> ScottK2, I think that is a stellar idea, I'll get on it now.
<bryce> well, after coffee.  brb
<ScottK2> OK.  I need to run out for about an hour.  I'll be back later.
<ScottK2> Slight update http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/64169/
<bryce> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config
<bryce> (WIP obviously)
<ScottK2> Great.
 * ScottK2 is back.
<bardyr> kudos to the people who refreshed the new http://start.ubuntu.com/8.04/ it looks really nice
<alex-weej> asac: still up?
<alex-weej> crimsun: or you :)
<jdong> get a room you guys!
<crimsun> alex-weej: yes
<alex-weej> crimsun: did you know flash seems to be working fine with the pulse ALSA plug /without/ libflashsupport?
<alex-weej> that is one less reason not to use PA as the default ALSA output
<crimsun> alex-weej: it works on my config, yes.  Then again, FF didn't 'splode with libflashsupport and older Flash, either, here.
<alex-weej> it did for me
<alex-weej> npviewer.bin would frequently segfault
<crimsun> the only thing we can really do at this stage is grow a larger sampling pool.
<alex-weej> i don't think many of our users are using pulse as the default output without libflashsupport
<alex-weej> you either need the PCM defs in /etc/asound.conf or your own user conf via asoundconf set-pulse or whatever
<crimsun> yeah, that's why I added it.
<crimsun> AFAIK, Ubuntu Education Edition has been using it.
<alex-weej> how hard do you think it would be to add a hook in the PA package that added a line to /etc/asound.conf that sourced its default PCM config jazz?
<alex-weej> messing with configs is pretty hairy i guess
<crimsun> not hard, but it is not recommended and would make several people's neckhair crawl
<alex-weej> crimsun: are you a core dev?
<crimsun> yes.
<alex-weej> ok, that's good to know
<alex-weej> i commented on 192888 (the flash crash bug)
<alex-weej> basically suggesting we test and then mark libflashsupport as conflicting with the newer flashplugin
<crimsun> alex-weej: breaks for at least one significant test case as outlined in the bug report.
<alex-weej> oh? which?
<crimsun> alex-weej: essentially, current hardy PA's default.pa (exclusive hw:X), using pcm pulse plug in an asoundrc, hotplugging another audio device, testing Flash in FF3.0b5
<alex-weej> crimsun: that's not the Fx bug though
<alex-weej> wait
<alex-weej> maybe it is, sorry
<alex-weej> hotplug another audio device and... Fx crashes?
<crimsun> no, inaudible audio
<alex-weej> well that's a different bug right?
<crimsun> yes
<crimsun> FF doesn't crash, but Flash audio isn't audible
<crimsun> which is, coincidentially, precisely what the current situation is.
<alex-weej> so let me get this straight
<alex-weej> Flash is using PA
<alex-weej> as in, you can see the audio levels in the volume meter and control it with pavucontrol
<alex-weej> you hotplug an ALSA device
<alex-weej> and suddenly the audio goes silent?
<crimsun> no, it fails for all audio devices controlled by PA
<crimsun> fails->inaudible
<alex-weej> only when flash is running?
<crimsun> only Flash is inaudible
<alex-weej> so that's a pretty small bug in comparison, right?
<crimsun> it is irrevelant whether other PA clients are running - they continue to be audible
<crimsun> well, hardy will ship with Flash nondeterministically inaudible
<alex-weej> when you hotplug a DEVICE?
<crimsun> if libflashsupport is not installed but the pulse pcm plug is used, Flash will be inaudible period.
<crimsun> yes, regardless whether a device is hot(un)plugged
<alex-weej> crimsun: i don't think that's true -- at least i have pulse PCM here and no libflashsupport and it works fine with no npviewer crashes
<crimsun> alex-weej: I'm on ia32.  No nspluginwrapper.
<alex-weej> i'm still not really sure what you mean here -- is Adobe Flash actually picking up on ALSA device hotplugging and doing something it shouldn't?
<alex-weej> and i'd say the chances of someone having music paused but wanting to listen to youtube are more likely than people hotplugging devices
<crimsun> no, the pcm pulse alsa-lib plugin fails on ia32 for Flash.
<alex-weej> why did you talk about hotplugging? or was that something else?
<crimsun> no, it's all related.
<crimsun> the `pulseaudio -vv' output is there in my comment.
<alex-weej> i guess it's late, sorry i just don't understand
<alex-weej> forgetting hotplugging
<alex-weej> you're saying that setting up the default PCM as pulse
<alex-weej> and trying to use flash without libflashsupport
<alex-weej> fails?
<crimsun> yes.
<gnomefreak> flash 124 doesnt need to depend on libflashsupport as i understand it
<alex-weej> gnomefreak: it doesn't anymore
<alex-weej> the problem is it doesn't CONFLICT
<crimsun> gnomefreak: it fails horribly on ia32.
<alex-weej> so many people still have it installed
<alex-weej> crimsun: what is your ALSA config?
<gnomefreak> crimsun: did you try moving the libflashsupport.so?
<gnomefreak> see if it helps
<crimsun> gnomefreak: I have no libflashsupport.so.
<gnomefreak> thats not good
<alex-weej> gnomefreak: what arch you on?
<gnomefreak> 686
<crimsun> guys, I tested this on ia32 before I started all the dmix & dsnoop fun
<alex-weej> and yours works without libflashsupport?
<alex-weej> gnomefreak: and you're using pulse as your default ALSA output?
<gnomefreak> alex-weej: should i just got home from 3 months of being away
<alex-weej> i see
<gnomefreak> alex-weej: im working on a few things atm and will test
<crimsun> believe me, I really don't like the idea of using dmix instead of hw:X, but it is the only audible solution I've found on ia32.
<alex-weej> gnomefreak: yeah, try removing libflashsupport and running asoundconf set-pulseaudio
<alex-weej> then restart your browser and go youtubing
<gnomefreak> 'testing with beta5?
<crimsun> alex-weej: (http://pastebin.com/d17a12c34 is my test config)
<alex-weej> make sure flashplugin-nonfree is uptodaye
<alex-weej> crimsun: does that pulseaudio log repeat over-and-over?
<crimsun> alex-weej: yes.
<alex-weej> that USED to be what happened for me
<gnomefreak> i get sound but its really low
<alex-weej> hm what am i doing, i have an i386 PC sat next to me...
<alex-weej> low or slow?
<gnomefreak> low
<gnomefreak> not loud
<alex-weej> check your PA volumes
<alex-weej> pavucontrol :)
<alex-weej> can you see Adobe Flash listed as a client?
<gnomefreak> might help if it was installed :)
<alex-weej> crimsun: you have the same config as me, FWIW. do you have one in /etc/asound.conf ?
<alex-weej> gnomefreak: Adobe Flash is what we're trying to test here...
<gnomefreak> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVky7hwuebU  plays
<crimsun> alex-weej: no, and ~/.asoundrc takes precedence anyhow.
<alex-weej> crimsun: right, but i was wondering if any other PCM's were defined that Flash may be screwing with.
<gnomefreak> alex-weej: pavucontrol isnt installed by default
<crimsun> alex-weej: no, there aren't any additional custom ones.
<alex-weej> gnomefreak: oh right :P
<alex-weej> gnomefreak: do what you have to do then :)
<gnomefreak> i am
<gnomefreak> sudo :(
<gnomefreak> ok no thats not it
<gnomefreak> whats wrong with pavucontrol
<crimsun> gnomefreak: what's the issue?
<gnomefreak> gnomefreak@Hardy:~$ pavucontrol
<gnomefreak> E: authkey.c: Failed to open cookie file '/home/gnomefreak/.pulse-cookie': Permission denied
<gnomefreak> sudo doesnt let it stay open either
<crimsun> blah, that's a separate PA bug.
<gnomefreak> it gives error
<alex-weej> don't run it as sudo
<gnomefreak> cant look in it
<alex-weej> are you running pulseaudio as root?
<crimsun> pkill pulseaudio, rm ~/.pulse*
<gnomefreak> no
<crimsun> sorry, rm -fr ~/.pulse*
<gnomefreak> no good together
<alex-weej> wait
<alex-weej> stat ~/.pulse-cookie
<alex-weej> who owns?
<gnomefreak> looks like root
<alex-weej> so something is running PA as root...
<alex-weej> just do a sudo killall pulseaudio
<alex-weej> wait
<alex-weej> sudo pulseaudio -k
<gnomefreak> not likely but i think i have it fixed atm
<crimsun> he'll have to nuke ~/.pulse*, too.
<alex-weej> crimsun: pulseaudio shutdown should nuke it no?
<gnomefreak> no
<gnomefreak> well not after fixing it :(
<alex-weej> hm, wonder how that happened
<alex-weej> yeah just sudo rm .pulse* :P
<gnomefreak> did
<gnomefreak> ok lets try again
<gnomefreak> asac changed dirs for profiles it seems
<gnomefreak> i dont have libflashsupport.so at all
<gnomefreak> and it seems to work fine here
<gnomefreak> PA is a bit on the cranky side atm but flash plays
<crimsun> Flash "plays" fine here.  It's just inaudible due to the pulse pcm plugin in libasound2-plugins choking
<gnomefreak> plays as in plays sounds and vid
<gnomefreak> crimsun: you are not the only one that i have heard this about but i wrote it off as he didnt update flash
<crimsun> gnomefreak: with the default pcm set to pulse, correct?
<alex-weej> gnomefreak: is it *definitely* playing through pulse -- you can see the Flash channel in pavucontrol right?
<gnomefreak> crimsun: cant find where to set it outside of the command asoundconf set-pulseaudio
<crimsun> gnomefreak: that's the precise command you need to use
<gnomefreak> alex-weej: pavucontrol gets no connection
<alex-weej> it sounds like you're running pulse as root again...
<gnomefreak> alex-weej: nope
<alex-weej> something is wrong here
<crimsun> in my case, it attempts the connection, which connects and abruptly dies
<gnomefreak> connection failed: connection refused
<alex-weej> crimsun: pavucontrol!?
<alex-weej> or flash->alsa->pulse?
<gnomefreak> pavucontrol gives me the above error
<alex-weej> crimsun: if you run pavucontrol while flash is playing
<alex-weej> do you see the volume control for Adobe Flash appear and disappear all the time?
<gnomefreak> here doesnt matter if flash is playing or not
<crimsun> alex-weej: the stream registers as a pulse client and dies, as shown in the `pulseaudio -vv' log.  In pavucontrol, the client "flashes".
<crimsun> yes, it "appears and disappears"
<alex-weej> crimsun: yeah that's exactly what i used to get on my i386
<alex-weej> i will check it out in the morning
<gnomefreak> why is it looking for root when it wasnt ran as root
<alex-weej> so anyway, aside gnomefreak's pa oddness over authz, that's at least one positive... i say we sit it out and see how many other responses we get
<alex-weej> including my own :)
<gnomefreak> gnomefreak@Hardy:~$ pulseaudio -vv
<gnomefreak> I: main.c: Called SUID root and real-time/high-priority scheduling was requested in the configuration. However, we lack the necessary priviliges:
<crimsun> gnomefreak: that's a red herring.
<gnomefreak> ah ok
<alex-weej> i have to sleep guys
<alex-weej> thanks, byee!
<crimsun> bye
<TheMuso> all of this convinces me more that we shouldn't have gone pulse for an LTS.
<crimsun> well, it has been pretty clear to me that removing pulse is not viable, but we shouldn't neuter it, either.
<TheMuso> Yeah.
 * gnomefreak confused with the output after running the asoundconf set-pulseaudio command pulseaudio -vv is showing alot of alsa lines 
<crimsun> gnomefreak: it should be, given you're using the default hardy pulseaudio
<crimsun> -vv is quite verbose
<gnomefreak> noticed
<gnomefreak> crimsun: are you pnly playing the flash or are you running say totem in background?
<crimsun> gnomefreak: I've tried both cases.
 * gnomefreak goes to find bug i wrote off
<crimsun> same result in both, since other pulse clients are irrelevant
<crimsun> ugh, so I think I've got an alsa-plugins fix, but I'm getting some wack skew eerily reminiscent of the old plugins issue.
<dholbach> good morning
<jsgotangco> hi
 * slangasek waves
<dholbach> hi jsgotangco, hey slangasek
<nxvl> dholbach: gutten tag!
<dholbach> hi nxvl: Guten Tag! :)
<nxvl> heh, here it is gutten nacht
<nxvl> it's 00:04
<dholbach> hehe :)
<dholbach> Gute Nacht :)
<calc> interesting stat trend at w3schools, their visitors will be majority firefox users by end of next year
<calc> if the percentage users of IE continue to drop at roughly the same rate as the past few years
<shadowxp> hmm curiously
<shadowxp> where is that stat located at w3c?
<calc> http://w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
<calc> should be ~ 42% next jan and ~ 47% by jan 2010 if the trend continues
<calc> which would put IE below 47%
<calc> er all the versions of IE combined that is
<calc> no wonder microsoft is playing so nice with standards for IE8
<shadowxp> lol
<shadowxp> yeah,
<shadowxp> IE8 is definately better
<shadowxp> at standards then IE7
<calc> yea
<calc> they are going to have to start catching up with standards as firefox is standards compliant and will be the defacto standard browser soon
<calc> well mostly compliant
<shadowxp> yeah, FF3 is definately a real threat
<shadowxp> to IE
<shadowxp> we'll see if M$ actually continues following the standards tho
<crimsun> TheMuso: I've cleaned up and pushed the correct fix into alsa-plugins's bzr, but I'm unable to test ATM  (lack of sleep)
<crimsun> ->Z
<TheMuso> crimsun: No problem, I'll have a look a bit later.
<TheMuso> Spare a thought for cjwatson.
<TheMuso> woops wrong channel
<Silicium> how look for the stable release
<Silicium> if i want install a new machine in the next 5h, should i wait for the final?
<cjwatson> use the release candidate and upgrade
<gnomefreak> crimsun: are you still awake?
<gnomefreak> crimsun: when you get up it seems this PA+flash bug started in Gutsy from what i gathering from someone suffering from it
<calc> is there a reason that ff can't sort bookmarks?
<gnomefreak> calc: no not yet but a bug or 3 on it atm
<gnomefreak> i havent seen it happen yet
<calc> gnomefreak: oh ok
<calc> yea it won't let me sort either :\
<gnomefreak> calc: if i get done and sleep ill talk to asa_c or someone about it since ive seen that bug in my email everyday
<calc> there are lots of nice organize bookmark sorting methods but it doesn't keep it that way when you quit the organize screen
<calc> gnomefreak: ok
<gnomefreak> xalff3 i take it?
<gnomefreak> ack
<calc> and the right click sort is greyed out
<gnomefreak> calc: ff3 i take it?
<calc> yea, 8.04 current
<gnomefreak> yeah its  new to beta5 afair
<calc> ok
<gnomefreak> this cant be good
<pitti> Good morning
<calc> whee akademy and guadec combined :)
<asac> gnomefreak: welcome back!!!
<Flawless> Does anybody here have experience with python-central + dh_pycentral ?
<Flawless> I'm trying to create a python package, which works well for $PYSHARED/mypackage _except_  for $PYSHARED/mypackage/subfolders
<Flawless> When I install my package, only files directly into the mypackage dir in the pycentral-dir will be available in /usr/lib/python2.x/site-packages/mypackage
<Flawless> I can't figure out why
<Flawless> Do I really need to manually make my package install files in /usr/lib/python2.4/site-packages/foo/ AND /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/foo/ ?
<Flawless> I hope this is the right channel? :)
<Fujitsu> Flawless: #ubuntu-motu is better, and we have a release happening within hours. Maybe wait a few days.
<Flawless> Oh, my bad :)
<Flawless> All the best with 8.04!
<Amaranth> We needs mod_evasive :)
<jdub> rock on, ubunteros :-)
<Fujitsu> Hey jdub.
<dholbach> hi jdub
<dholbach> I'm still used to type  jd<tab>   - but there's 3 jd* now :)
 * dholbach hugs jdub
<fabbione> jdub: !!!!!!'
<MacSlow> hey jdub
<MacSlow> jdub, how's down-uder?
<Treenaks> MacSlow: quiet, apparently :P
<jdub> MacSlow: rockin'
<jdub> MacSlow: the future is awesome. :-)
<MacSlow> jdub, it should be... glad to hear :)
<seb128_> bah, f-spot lacks a good maintainer upstream apparently
<mpt> seb128_, gratuitous WONTFIXes?
<seb128_> mpt: no,  but the things lacks a lot of polish, there is over 100 strings which are not in the translation template
<seb128_> it floods stdout when there is no errors (I've distro patched to workaround a bit the issue)
<seb128_> it was printing things like "open uri = URI" for every photos in your collection
<Nailor> debug prints ftw.
<mpt> I reported a few bugs and they were all marked WONTFIX because I got the version number wrong by mistake
<seb128_> debug prints should be conditional to some debug flag to turn in the source or using a command line option
<seb128_> mpt: utch
<Mithrandir> release builds with -DDEBUG.. mmm. :-P
<Nailor> seb128_: Yup, that's the policy normally.
<seb128_> Mithrandir: no, the code just has lot of random System.Console.WriteLine calls
<seb128_> mpt: that's a shame because otherwise the application itself is nice
<Nailor> seb128_: Seems like the author of that code's been debugging something and not using the debugging mechanism offered by the language.
<Nailor> And, after the problem has been fixed, the stuff is left there
<seb128_> $ grep Console.WriteLine * -r | wc -l
<seb128_> 686
<seb128_> it has been debugging a lot then
<slomo_> heh
<Nailor> Uh. :)
<slomo_> seb128_: i guess upstream doesn't believe that anybody is still running applications from a terminal ;)
<seb128_> and they don't think anybody is using an another locale than english
<mpt> seb128_, nice in comparison with gthumb, perhaps, but compared with the proprietary equivalents it's pretty low-grade
<seb128_> mpt: right
<james_w> mvo: hi. Upgrades from Xubuntu dapper do not work if universe is not enabled, is this known.
<mvo> james_w: no, its not known - we should release note it at this point, I can prepare a fix for -proposed
<james_w> mvo: also, I can't get the update-manager gui to offer me a hardy upgrade, though do-release-upgrade works
<james_w> is that related?
<mvo> james_w: that is with dapper? and the lastest update-manager from dapper-updates?
<james_w> mvo: yes and yes
<james_w> 0.56~dapper5
<mvo> james_w: that is update-manager-core, I beliefe what is the version of update-manager?
<james_w> 0.42.2ubuntu22
<mvo> james_w: please update that to 22.2 (from dapper-updates)
<james_w> I tried, but it wasn't offered
<james_w> let me try again.
<heno> james_w: I tried an xubuntu dapper->hardy upgrade just now and was offered 8.04 by 'sudo update-manager -d'
<james_w> heno: ah, ok, thanks. It looks like an error on my part.
<heno> I rebooted after updating xubuntu dapper, FWIW
<heno> it does fail on calculating the upgrade though, citing a missing *-desktop package, though xubuntu-desktop is installed
<heno> I'll report that separately
<mvo> heno: have you enabled universe ?
<stgraber> heno: you need universe
 * heno tries that
<mvo> I can prepare a fix for hardy-proposed now, but it will take a bit until its is available (because hardy-proposed is not open yet)
<mvo> if there is a bugnumber I will comment on it (we probably need to talk to the xubuntu devs as well if we just should unconditionally enable universe for people with xubuntu-desktop installed)
<mvo> I wouldn't want to add new strings, but then enabling universe without confirmation seems to be not ok too :/
<stgraber> mvo: xubuntu is now in universe, so the user will have to turn it on for upgrade anyway
<heno> seems to work now
<stgraber> I don't see why you would need a confirmation as turning it on is the only way you can upgrade
<mvo> my only concern with that is, that because universe has a different level of (security) support, they may not want to upgrade
<mvo> but yeah, most of the ciriticla stuff for security upgrade is in main anyway
<mvo> so its not a big issue
<slangasek> and they still have to click 'check' to get a new version, so
<ogra> OMG !
<slangasek> ?
 * ogra just accidentially typed dpkg-reconfigure -a instead of dpkg --configure -a in his VM terminal
<slangasek> sweet
<slangasek> unrelated to the release then ;)
<ogra> yeah, sorry :)
<RAOF> How many questions will it ask do you reackon, to the nearest hundred? :)
<ogra> RAOF, i just killed the VM now but i bet hundrets
<norsetto> I knew I was going to screw this up once, anyway I can remove an upload from the pending queue? It was meant for my ppa
<pitti> norsetto: I can do it (but only because we are frozen; normally it goes straight through)
<norsetto> pitti: yes thanks, ppas are getting me crazy
<pitti> norsetto: xchat-xsys, I assume; rejected
<norsetto> pitti: thanks, appreciate it
<DktrKranz2> norsetto: rename "ubuntu" with "where-uploads-matter" in your dput.cf ;)
<norsetto> DktrKranz2: I'd rather remove the whole ppa actually :-)
 * pitti has a wrapper for dput which would select the right queue autoamtically based on the target (-security -> security.upload.ubuntu.com, etc.)
<norsetto> pitti: care to share? I use my ppa seldomly, so I tend to use my "automatic control" which default to ubuntu ...
<pitti> norsetto: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/scripts/uup
<DktrKranz2> It would be interesting have hardy-ppa as default target for PPA packages, so we won't break stuff
<norsetto> pitti: fantastic, thank you again
<pitti> norsetto: it also scp's the package to somewhere else first (don't ask), you don't want that; but it might give you some ideas
<norsetto> pitti: yes, looks like it can be easily modified to upload ~ppa packages to the ppa
<pitti> norsetto: for you, a simple dpkg-parsechangelog |grep ^Version is probably enough for you
<pitti> norsetto: or, looking at the .changes)
<norsetto> pitti: yes, the first one looks simpler
<pitti> well, but you need to be in the source tree for that
<pitti> I guess you want to have a script which works on a .changes, not on a source tree
<norsetto> pitti: good point
<mvo> anyone here with a kubuntu dapper VM?
<pitti> slomo_, seb128: what should we do about the tomboy in gutsy-proposed which is sitting there for half a year? what's the testing situation on that?
<pitti> slomo_, seb128: the current one doesn't have the gutsy-security fix applied, so it either needs to be reuploaded, or we remove it again
<emgent> pitti: thanks for gosa :)
<pitti> you're welcome
<YokoZar> Oooh it looks like the torrents are up on the website for the DVD and server release...
<emgent> yep
<davmor2> mvo: what's up dude
<mvo> davmor2: all good :)
<davmor2> mvo: why the shout about kubuntu dapper?
<mvo> davmor2: I wanted to check dapper->hardy upgrade procedures with it, but I create a kubunte chroot now
<davmor2> okay np the only way I could get it work on hw was by installing the core and going with do-release-update have you got a fix for that now?
<tjaalton> hmm, why does cupsd want to have write-access to /etc/krb5.conf?
<pitti> tjaalton: that sounds bad indeed, and I don't think I allowed that in the AppArmor profile?
<tjaalton> pitti: it's not allowed, but I get an audit warning
<pitti> tjaalton: does it break things? or is it just the cosmetical error?
<tjaalton> pitti: seems to be cosmetic
<tjaalton> at least I can print :)
<pitti> good
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: is there a good news article for Xubuntu 8.04 that we can link to from the main announcement?
 * cody-somerville is trying to mirror it on the website but wiki is super slow.
<cody-somerville> The wiki keeps timing out.
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: intended URL?
<cody-somerville> http://xubuntu.org/news/hardy/release ?
<cjwatson> slangasek: ^--
<slangasek> and what kind of eta might we have for that?
<davmor2> slangasek: 8.10
<slangasek> cody-somerville: put another way - if you haven't been able to extract it from the wiki by the time the announcement mail goes out, should I include that link anyway or fall back to the homepage?
<cody-somerville> Okay, I got it. Please link to that.
<slangasek> ack, thanks
<_MMA_> slangasek: If you will be including Studio, please also just link to our homepage.
<slangasek> _MMA_: ack, will do, thanks
<_MMA_> np
<aantn> are there plans to include a widgets framework in ibex?
<aantn> e.g. screenlets, gdesklets, universal applets
<Keybuk> aantn: no plans, no
<aantn> Keybuk: ok
<aantn> I thought I saw a mailing list thread about it a while back
<aantn> Would that decision change if one of the widget frameworks became stable
<Keybuk> it's not so much of a decision, as a lack of one
<aantn> I see
 * aantn goes back to coding
<Keybuk> personally, I don't see the point of widgets
<Keybuk> they're either under everything so annoying to find
<Keybuk> or on top of everything so in your way
<aantn> Keybuk: not always
<Keybuk> and seem to just duplicate functionality available elsewhere
<Keybuk> "ooh, a *pretty* desktop calculator"
<aantn> os x's dashboard feature is quite nice
<aantn> the goal of universal applets is quite different
<Keybuk> so OS X by default gives me:
<aantn> its an attempt to get rid of duplicate functionality
<Keybuk> a calculator (available in the utilities list)
<Keybuk> a clock, already visible on the screen in the top-right
<Keybuk> the date, already visible on the screen in the top-right
<aantn> Keybuk: do you think panel applets have a point?
<Keybuk> a calendar, obtainable by clicking the date in the top-right
<Keybuk> and the weather
<Keybuk> so to me, that duplicates functionality ;)
<aantn> true, but that doesn't apply to universal applets
<seb128> what are universal applets?
<aantn> and most of the three thousand widgets available on apple's website don't just copy other functionality
<Keybuk> most of them don't provide _any_ functionality ;)
<aantn> widgets simplify the creation of mini programs
<mpt> I think the point of widgets is having half a dozen that you use frequently
<mpt> You could set up a hotkey for each of them
<mpt> but collecting them together, you can have a single hotkey for them all
<aantn> seb128: universal applet's goal is to get rid of the code duplication
<seb128> aantn: we don't suggest having three thousands applets in the default installation, do you?
<Keybuk> mpt: but wouldn't it be better to just have that hotkey open the app/tool that provides that functionality?
<aantn> seb128: no
<seb128> aantn: what feature would you like that is not there yet?
<Keybuk> ie. F9 opens the calendar in the top-right
<mpt> Keybuk, no, because then you need to remember half a dozen different hotkeys.
<aantn> just the framework installed by default
<Keybuk> mpt: you could have a hotkey open all of them? :)
<seb128> aantn: there is no such framework
<mpt> Keybuk, sure, and how are you going to close them all again?
<aantn> most users don't know that they exist
<Keybuk> and when do you ever need to simultaneously use a calculator and look at the weather? :)
<aantn> seb128: ?
<mpt> Keybuk, who's suggesting that?
<Keybuk> mpt: that's OS X's default ;)
<seb128> aantn: there is no "universe applets for GNOME framework"
<aantn> seb128: universal applets' goal is to reduce duplication of code
<aantn> seb128: actually...
<mpt> Keybuk, no, that's your assumption of why they're grouped together
<Keybuk> mpt: ?
<seb128> aantn: no need of applets for that, you can write widgets and library
<mpt> I'm suggesting a different possibility
<Keybuk> mpt: you've confused me :)
<aantn> development time is valuable
<mpt> Keybuk, I'm suggesting that they're grouped not because you need to use them simultaneously, but because that saves you from having to remember multiple hotkeys, one for each utility.
<Keybuk> mpt: but what makes those things so special?
<seb128> aantn: right, but there is no for "applets", you can as well have a good toolkit, ie make gtk better
<Keybuk> why is a calcuator so special that it shouldn't behave like any other desktop tool?
<Keybuk> should look and act different
<Keybuk> be opened differently
<aantn> right now, devs are wasting time rewriting applets so that they can be displayed in different places on the screen
<Keybuk> have different accessibility methods
<Keybuk> etc.
<mpt> Keybuk, only that you need to access it quickly and frequently
<aantn> Keybuk: they shouldn't
<aantn> that's exactly the point
<seb128> aantn: you will not stop people to rewrite things for the sake of using their preferred language, learning, etc
<aantn> there should be a framework to simplify the creation of miniprograms
<Keybuk> mpt: but couldn't the hotkey just open the usual calculator?
<aantn> seb128: that's different
<seb128> aantn: use pygtk?
<seb128> aantn: that allows to write quickly easy programs
 * aantn gasps for air
<aantn> give me a second
<mpt> Keybuk, no, because that wouldn't also open the other utilities you use frequently
<Keybuk> mpt: why not?
<aantn> I'll explain
<Keybuk> I could have a hot key open all the apps I use frequently
<Keybuk> isn't that the same thing?
<aantn> people want information to be instantly accessible
<mpt> <mpt> Keybuk, sure, and how are you going to close them all again?
<Keybuk> mpt: how do I close the widgets? :)
<aantn> they also want to display it wherever they want
<seb128> aantn: you need to describe what your interface looks like and what actions do, how you describe it is just a programming language
<mpt> Keybuk, with the same key with which you opened them.
<Keybuk> mpt: I'd close all the apps with the same key with which I opened them
<Keybuk> :)
<aantn> e.g. in the panel, in the dock, as a floating window
<mpt> Keybuk, I bet you can't. Not without writing a shell script.
<Keybuk> mpt: I bet I can with some minor patches to the WM and GTK+
<Keybuk> which is a lot less effort than inventing an entirely new class of applications
<Keybuk> and an entirely new toolkit to write them in
<mpt> Keybuk, well, congratulations for reinventing Dashboard then :-)
 * ogra sighs about the sily bugs.lp.net ui ... who had the glorious idea to force my cursor in the text input field all the time *GGRRRRR*
<Keybuk> mpt: but dashboard doesn't do that
<Keybuk> dashboard opens a *different* calculator
<aantn> it doesn't work to have them as standalone programs b/c then they can
<Keybuk> and a *different* calendar
<seb128> aantn: there is some gnome-panel applet which allow to embed applications I think
<Keybuk> and a *different* clock
<aantn> er.. can't
<mpt> Again, I'm not disputing that it's silly to have an entirely separate platform with *different* applications
<Keybuk> which is pretty much my entire objection to it
<mpt> I'm considering only the UI
<aantn> seb128: if you're talking about swallow then it's broken
<aantn> and extremely hackish
<Keybuk> (random fact, every time I want the Calculator, I open the Character Map ...
<aantn> Keybuk: again, that's what universal applets is coming to solve
<Keybuk>  and every time I want the Character Map, I open the Calculator)
<mpt> The most convenient calculator I ever used was on the Amiga
<Keybuk> aantn: the last commit to screenlets was "improved draw rectangle functions"
<aantn> users should have the freedom to display the calculator wherever they want
<Keybuk> aantn: this to me suggests you're attempting to write a new toolkit
<aantn> Keybuk: that's not universal applets
<mpt> I could type Amiga =, the Calculator popped into view, I typed my equation, pressed Enter, and the result was typed into whatever window I had been in at the time
<aantn> Keybuk: I'm not
<Keybuk> it was the "I'm feeling lucky" for it
<seb128_> re
<seb128_> dsl disconnected
<aantn> luck is fickle
<seb128_> aantn: there is some gnome-panel applet which allow to embed applications I think
<seb128_> aantn: not true, you just need a way to embed widgets in the gnome-panel and what you call "dock" dynamically
<Keybuk> aantn: it's your own repository! :D
<aantn> seb128: if you're talking about swallow then it's broken
<aantn> exactly!
<seb128_> well, I didn't say this one is working correctly or right
<aantn> Keybuk: correct
<seb128_> but that's basically what you want
<Keybuk> to me, we don't need any kind of framework here
<aantn> developers should have the freedom applications in any language they want
<Keybuk> just some thought into the UI of launching applications and tools
<seb128_> anyway you don't want a desklet in your panel
<aantn> and the applications should automagically show up anywhere the user wants
<seb128_> because the panel is usually 24 pixels wide where the desklets can use the whole desktops
<aantn> seb128_: if the user wants them on the panel then they should be on the panel
<seb128_> aantn: you have the freedom to use any language you want
<aantn> seb128_: correct
<aantn> that's the whole concept behind universal applets
<seb128_> aantn: then the user can use this broken applet which embed things on the panel ;-)
<Keybuk> actually, a key to make the calculator show up under my mouse would be quite welcome ;)
<seb128_> aantn: ? that's not a concept, you can use any language you want today
<aantn> seb128_: and what if he wants to display it in epiphany's sidebar
<Keybuk> aantn: err, he shouldn't? that's crackful
<aantn> seb128_: in universal applets, I meant
<seb128_> you just need a way to embed things wherever you want
<seb128_> you want libbobobo back ;-)
<aantn> Keybuk: again, that's what universal applets does
<aantn> it's made up of two parts
<seb128_> vapoware
<aantn> seb128_: not anymore
<Keybuk> aantn: why would you ever want to embed a calculator into epiphany?
<Keybuk> that's silly
<seb128_> nobody wants this universal applets thing
<Keybuk> just because you _can_ doesn't mean you _should_
<seb128_> no normal user
<aantn> seb128_: you'd be surprised
<Keybuk> what use case are you fulfilling here?
<aantn> I'm coming to solve the *fact* that there are at least 5 different gmail applets
<aantn> one for awn, one for screenlets, one for gnome-panel, etc.
<seb128_> you will never solve that
<seb128_> people will rewrite things just because they think they can do better
<aantn> oh, and bigboard
<seb128_> or don't like the way the current ones are done
<aantn> seb128_: that's not why they've been rewritten
<seb128_> or want to use an another programming language
<seb128_> or an another toolkit
<aantn> the awn terminal applet was rewritten just so that it could be displayed as a screenlet
<aantn> it's laughable, but people are doing it
<seb128_> good for them
<aantn> seb128_: forks are nearly always bad
<seb128_> not true
<seb128_> those are not forks
<seb128_> they are different ways to do things
<seb128_> that encourage innovation, etc
<aantn> seb128_: developers should be spending time adding on new features and not getting applets to show up in different places
<aantn> seb128_: not at all
<seb128_> well, those people choice to duplicate work
<seb128_> if you take GNOME there is no real duplication
<aantn> because no alternative exists
<seb128_> they should better join a project and work on making things better
<seb128_> I start thinking you are here to troll ;-)
<aantn> seb128_: hardly
<mpt> seb128_, lighten up :-)
<aantn> however, I'm still unsure what your argument is
<seb128_> I've no argument
<aantn> the fact is that developers are wasting time forking
<seb128_> I just think your universe applet thing is a vapoware
<seb128_> they don't need to
<seb128_> they can contribute to existant project
<aantn> any solution to that problem is good, especially if it makes the users happy
<seb128_> they decide to do so
<aantn> they don't contribute to existing projects because the users want the applet to be displayed elsewhere
<seb128_> and?
<aantn> you can bring back the calculator example
<seb128_> why can't they join a project and help solving this issue
<seb128_> rather than reinventing everything
<aantn> seb128_: because applet devs are easier to find then applet framework devs
<seb128_> what you tries to do is just embed widgets
<aantn> wouldn't it be much easier if the calculator could just show up wherever the user wanted
<aantn> there would be no need for a separate widget
<seb128_> sure
<seb128_> but why do you need to rewrite thing for that?
<aantn> the application itself would function as a widget when necessary
<seb128_> why don't you just use libbonobo to embed existant widgets?
<seb128_> nautilus was doing that years ago
<aantn> seb128_: because I think it can be done in a simpler way
<seb128_> eog was embeded for image viewing
<aantn> and then they stopped because it was broken
<seb128_> yeah, but why not fixing it?
<seb128_> rather than reinvent a whole new concept
<aantn> I thought that a fresh codebase would help
<seb128_> and no, it was not broken
<aantn> (and it did)
<seb128_> they just decided that was not a good user experience
<seb128_> a filemanager is there to manage files
<seb128_> when viewing an image you want to open an image viewer
<aantn> you can say the same thing about firefox extensions
<seb128_> because the interfaces, etc are different
<aantn> yet firefox users are happy and consider extensions to be ff's best feature
<seb128_> ok, I stop there
<seb128_> you are a troll
<aantn> most extensions have nothing to do with browsing
<aantn> lol
<seb128_> you have a similar feature in nautilus
<Kim^J> Everyone an Ubuntu-dev?
<seb128_> and add functions is different than turning your application is something else dynamically
<aantn> this argument isn't going anywhere, so I'll stop if you'd prefer
<aantn> seb128_: features like that do NOT belong in Nautilus core
<seb128_> I'm stopping this discussion, I've spent too much time trolling already
<seb128_> I should stop doing that ;-)
<Kim^J> Which feature?
<cjwatson> Kim^J: this channel has a high population of Ubuntu developers, though not exclusively
<cjwatson> we'd appreciate it being kept for development coordination
 * aantn gulps
<aantn> sorry
<Kim^J> cjwatson: Sure. :) Give me something to develop. :)
<cjwatson> Kim^J: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
<Kim^J> Though I don't do Ubuntu anymore on desktop. :|
<cjwatson> (can't give you something specific, it depends on your personal skills and interests)
<aantn> Kim^J: what language?
<Kim^J> aantn: C++, PHP, more if you like.
<aantn> (I'm not speeking for ubuntu)
<SEJeff> Kim^J, So help out the serverteam
<aantn> not a bad idea
 * Keybuk wants to write applications in PHP
<Kim^J> SEJeff: Mkay.
 * cjwatson checks. Did somebody replace Keybuk?
<Kim^J> Keybuk: No you don't. ;) Trust me on that one.
<stgraber> Keybuk: let's use PHP+GTK instead of Python+GTK :)
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: http://xubuntu.org/news/hardy/release says access denied; known?
 * cody-somerville nods.
<Kim^J> Well, busride home, Laters!
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, It'll become available when the release announcement is sent out.
<stgraber> cjwatson, cody-somerville: that's Drupal's behaviour for not published content
<cjwatson> mkay
<cjwatson> just making sure you'll be able to publish it
<persia> cody-somerville: It used to work, and the torrents seem to work.
<cjwatson> I don't know if xubuntu.org has the same kinds of load problems as ubuntu.com
<cody-somerville> I doubt it. We're on a different server.
<cody-somerville> We're on humboldt
* slangasek changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 8.04 LTS released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy, #ubuntu+1 for hardy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<laga> yay!
<james_w> congratulations everyone.
<cody-somerville> Congratz!
<mok0> congrats!
<james_w> especially slangasek, thanks a lot.
<laga> yup :)
<aantn> congrats
<pedro_> congrats folks!
<stgraber> congrats slangasek and the others
<slangasek> good job, all
 * cody-somerville cheers.
<slangasek> now for .1 :)
<laga> slangasek: get some sleep first :)
<slangasek> laga: yes, I'm following the process on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseProcess diligently ;)
<TheMuso> Well done folks.
<mrtimdog> Is there a download stats page for HH? Just thought it may be interesting if one exists :)
<AstralJava> Conga-rats all-around!
<StevenK> slangasek: Nice work!
<laga> argh
<Mithrandir> congrats everybody.
<laga> mirrors aren't updated yet ;)
<Mithrandir> releases.u.c seems slighly overloaded.
<slangasek> laga: many of them are
<laga> yeah
<laga> i'm being impatient ;)
<persia> laga: Torrents are operational, and fairly well seeded for most CDs.
<laga> yup
<laga> i just had some trouble getting to the .torrents
<laga> i've got it now
<pochu> congratulations folks!
<pochu> and the question now is: when can I start uploading to Intrepid? :)
<seb128_> hey pochu
<TheMuso> pochu: lol
<seb128_> pochu: what about fixing hardy issues for a while still? you can upload to hardy-proposed already
<seb128_> ;-)
<pochu> hi seb128_
<Pici> Thats no fun :(
<pochu> seb128_: oh, that's cool too ;)
<pochu> Pici: why not?
<pochu> Pici: you can break more things there, so there's more fun!
<Pici> pochu: Oh, in that case.... :P
<jdub> congrats dudes. :_)
<seb128_> jdub: thanks ;-)
 * ogra hugs jdong 
<ogra> err
<ogra> you too
 * ogra hugs jdub 
<ogra> :)
<Amaranth> !kirby
<ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about kirby - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
<Amaranth> aww
<Amaranth> wanted to dance :)
<jdub> http://bethesignal.org/blog/2008/04/24/smooth-upgrade-to-ubuntu-804-lts-on-my-linode/
<ale1> hey all, congrats to all for the work on hardy!!! Im running the RC now. :-) im looking for some doc's on how to mount a usb drive at boot to the same mount point. . . any ideas?? Ive been looking into UDEV rules but i got confused . . . :-(
<ogra> :)
<cody-somerville> Are the torrents for Xubuntu been updated?
<cody-somerville> Someone is reporting the sizes are different or something
<cody-somerville> Nvm, they report SUF
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: not to my knowledge
<cody-somerville> erm?!
<slangasek> "SUF"?
<cody-somerville> stupid user failure, apparently.
<ogra> ubuntuized that would be a UUF
<ogra> unexperienced user failure :)
 * Hobbsee waves
 * persia prefers inexperienced to avoid confusion with 'U' as "Ubuntu"
<ogra> heh
<mok0> uwf blocked my torrent download
<mok0> s/uwf/ufw
<cody-somerville> Is it just me or does the Ubuntu homepage not render correctly anymore? :P
<Hobbsee> people are hammering it...
<cody-somerville> Yes but the page doesn't render correctly.
<cody-somerville> The left nav is getting pushed to the right side of the page.
<broonie> Often that's due to a timeout on some essential component of the page.
<Niptech> hi
 * cody-somerville doesn't think that is the case.
<pitti> so then, let the hardy SRU madness begin!
 * pitti processes -proposed
<seb128> pitti: waouh ;-)
<sistpoty|work> cody-somerville: works for me, at least if js is turned off :)
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: http://xubuntu.org/news/hardy/release <- Xubuntu 8.04 isn't LTS; could you please remove that bit?
<cjwatson> I'm not sure Xubuntu 6.06 is accurately described as LTS either, although we weren't so clear on terminology then
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: I believe that all the release-noted items there were addressed after RC, too, though I'm not sure about the last one ("Dictionary packages are not properly installed from the Alternative CD" - by the way that should be Alternate install CD not Alternative)
<kagou> Congratulations to all !
<davmor2> Congrats to everyone :)
<Mithrandir> hm, release notes for 8.04 seems to be missing from http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes
<pitti> laga: FYI, I reject your hardy-proposed upload; please reupload with a proper SRU bug reference
<laga> pitti: thanks.
<pitti> laga: thank you; sorry for the strictness, but without a bug# it's a pain to check and track
<laga> pitti: i wasn't even aware it went to hardy-proposed. i'll do a normal SRU
<mishok13> #ubuntu-bugs
<emgent> morning
<emgent> happy hardy day :P
<Hobbsee> emgent: join the fun in #ubuntu-release-party, if you like
<emgent> Hobbsee: :)
<zyga_> hello
<zyga_> I'd like to point out that the current ubuntu.com page is broken on safari
<zyga_> compared to firefox there is an unexpected bar with menus on the right
<zyga_> in firefox the menus are on the left, below the flash banner
<zyga_> since it's D-day I guess public visibility is important and someone might care about changing that
<zyga_> thanks
<zyga_> oh... someone fixed that1
<seb128> zyga_: that's likely due to some timeouts
<zyga_> might be so, anyway it looks great now
<cody-somerville> I don't think it is timeouts
<cody-somerville> It isn't rendering correctly in firefox 2 or safari
 * cody-somerville notes that it is fixed though if you reload the entire thing.
<cody-somerville> For firefox 2 atleast.
<seb128> cody-somerville: are you sure the first try just didn't timeout?
<cody-somerville> Yes.
<cody-somerville> I just talked with Matthew
<seb128> ah ok
<cody-somerville> There was an issue.
<alex-weej> gnomefreak: you there?
<Fujisan> happy bd hardy heron :)
<Fujisan> can i party here Hobbsee had to ban me from the party
<Fujisan> for a joke
<Fujisan> i will tell you all about iut
<Fujisan> everyday
<laga> i guess it wasn't funny
<Pici> Tricking people into pressing ctrl+alt+backspace usually isnt.
<laga> yeah, that causes stabby thoughts
<ion_> I wouldn't mind there being a confirmation for ctrl-alt-backspace, though. :-)
<_MMA_> hahahahhahaa
<thom> that would be mad irritating
<ion_> Well, as in "you have to hit the combination twice". Not really a problem IMO.
<Kim^J> With checkbox ``Don't ask me again.'' that actually WORKS.
<Hobbsee> laga: he's doing it in multiple channels.
<laga> Hobbsee: time for a nice k-line handed out by freenode staff
<Hobbsee> laga: i don't take kindly to harassment, and the freenode staffers appear to be all out drinking.
<Hobbsee> laga: they say "ignore him, it's only one user"
<Hobbsee> laga: usually they do though, yes.
<Chipzz> Hobbsee: what a sick fuck
<Chipzz> I hope he enjoys the k-line
<Hobbsee> Chipzz: that wasn't his only channel.  nor was it the worst he did.  eh's not klined yet, either.
 * Hobbsee grumbles at freenode staff.
<Chipzz> I hope he will be though
<Hobbsee> he shoudl be, if freenode actually follow their policies
<Chipzz> I messaged him in private to express my thoughts about him
<Chipzz> you wanna know the funny part?
<Hobbsee> Chipzz: don't do that.  he comes out with some *really* weird stuff in PM
<Hobbsee> sure, it might be amusing
<Chipzz> he actually accused me of harassing him
<Hobbsee> hah
<alex-weej> crimsun: turns out libflashsupport was installed as part of ia32-libs on my system. it is, indeed, needed. https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/192888
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 192888 in pulseaudio "firefox crashes on flash contents" [High,In progress]
<Chipzz> I told him him I'ld rather believe a respected member of the community (you) than some sick fuck (him)
<Chipzz> tricking people into pressing c-a-b :(
<Chipzz> I wonder how much hours of work was lost :(
<Hobbsee> probably not many, seeing as it was -r-p, and so they were probably just watching irc.
<Chipzz> -r-p?
<Chipzz> oh
<Chipzz> -release-party?
<Chipzz> I still think it's pretty sick though
<Chipzz> though I probably wouldn't have lost much, because a) I know what c-a-b does, and b) I do all my work inside a screen anyway :)
<highvoltage> *BZZZZZT*
<Hobbsee> heh, yes
<Hobbsee> Chipzz: lots of people are pretty sick.  it appears that certian types of people attract them.
<Chipzz> what's worse
<Chipzz> it may give linux a bad name
<Chipzz> "I accidently pressed these keys, and I lost a whole day of work"
<laga> it gives idiots a bad name IMHO
<laga> ;)
<Chipzz> kinda reminds me of that Apple ad though ;)
<Chipzz> what that stoned girl
<Chipzz> what's her name again? :)
<laga> paris hilton?
<Chipzz> no
<Chipzz> Ellen Feis
<Chipzz> http://youtube.com/watch?v=_GxC4kKD9qA
<johanbr> Leslie Feist. And what makes you think she's stoned?
<kees> so, apt will order dpkg actions correctly, but if I have a mess of packages to install (like say Ooo), is there a way to simulate apt's dpkg install order?
<Chipzz> johanbr: s/stoned/"stoned"/
<Chipzz> she probably isn't, but there were lots of people who though she was
<sistpoty|work> kees: I'm not too sure, but if you give dpkg multiple packages, doesn't it do the right thing then?
<ion_> sudo dpkg --unpack *.deb && sudo apt-get -f install
<Chipzz> sistpoty|work: no, I don't think it does
<ion_> Close enough?
<kees> sistpoty|work: it doesn't always. (like when there are specific depends on eachother).  doing it a second time works, though.
<Chipzz> ion_: no
<kees> ion_: hmm
<Chipzz> that's not what he was asking
<Chipzz> kees: --dry-run?
<Chipzz> or something like that?
<Chipzz> yup, correct option
<kees> Chipzz: let me try with --dry-run...
<Chipzz> not sure if it will be of any use to you though
<Chipzz> ion_: you were answering "how do I install a bunch of packages", which was not at all what he was asking
<Chipzz> ion_: I'm guessing he wanted to figure out possible interactions due to the order of unpacking and pre/post|install/rm scripts
<ion_> chipzz: Yes, i misparsed the question.
<Chipzz> ion_: :)
<kees> Chipzz: well, it seems to be an issue with "I can't install A because B needs A to be installed first.  if I had done dpkg -i B A it would have worked, e.g.
<kees> (but I had run dpkg -i A B)
<sistpoty|work> kees: imho the only real way to figure out all bits is to use a local repo and use apt then (e.g. circular deps will get broken up by apt in way I always forget)
<Chipzz> sistpoty|work: but you're probably right that dpkg /should/ do the right thing though. except it doesn't ;)
<kees> sistpoty|work: yeah, that's what I'm thinking.  honestly, doing that would save me a little pain in getting builds to my VMs anyway.
<kees> I really want  apt-get install .
<kees> ::P
<kees> eek mutant smiley
<sistpoty|work> heh
<ion_> I have file:/var/cache/pbuilder/result in sources.list and an apt pre-invoke hook that basically runs dpkg-scanpackages in the directory. :-)
<ion_> A quick hack that works FSVO works. :-)
<ion_> Whoops, APT::Update::Pre-Invoke, that is.
<Milos_SD> Hi all ... Can someone tell me does 64bit ubuntu kernel has all drivers for TV cards as 32bit has? And does all common applications (audio/video decoding/encoding) are working?
<Kim^J> Milos_SD: Just use 32-bit.
<mjg59> Milos_SD: All the same drivers should be included
<mjg59> Kim^J: No. Please don't advise people to do that.
<gnomefreak> /win 1
<Kim^J> mjg59: Why not? Less trouble, people often doesn't need 64-bits anyways.
<mjg59> Because it's not an answer to the question asked, and you've no idea what his requirements are
<Milos_SD> Well, I have C2D CPU, and 64bit is logical solution ... 32bit is nice, but ... 64bit is maybe faster, or it is not?
<mjg59> It is
<mjg59> Milos_SD: But #ubuntu is the right place to ask about this
<Kim^J> mjg59: About 99.99% of the people asking questions about 64-bit doesn't have a clue WHY they need it. Just that they need it. The other 00.01% have a VERY good reason to use 64-bit.
<_MMA_> Kim^J: Link to those stats? In the end, it wasn't the needed answer to the question.
<Milos_SD> at #ubuntu I can't get the answer ... So many times I asked diffrent questions there, but almost never got the answer ...
<Kim^J> _MMA_: Well, it's not stats, just what I've experienced as an Ubuntu-supporter for the last 3 years.
<LaserJock> practically, Flash and Java are a tad more trouble to get going, but that's the only problem I've seen with 64-bit Ubuntu
<mjg59> LaserJock: I don't think Flash is even an issue these days, given the automatic pulling in of nspluginviewer
<laga> flash sucks on both platforms
<LaserJock> mjg59: ah
<Kim^J> laga: Flash always suck. ;)
<laga> yes.
<laga> (i hate adobe for flash)
<calc> cool my webcam works, cheese is the first time i had something to use it with :)
<Kim^J> Oh well, are there any cool projects to jump into? (Not to hard to read the code, fairly small.)
<highvoltage> laga: there's much better things to hate adobe for, imho
<LaserJock> calc: hah, same here
<laga> highvoltage: but flash is the only one which crashes my browser
 * calc thinks something that should be included by default for 8.10 if room can be found
<calc> helps users see their hardware works properly
<Amaranth> calc: Like a little 3D demo with sound?
<laga> Amaranth: does dxdiag.exe work in wine?
<mjg59> laga: Ironically, on 64-bit flash can't crash your browser...
<Amaranth> i love how http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/804features/ shows compiz with a cube
<Amaranth> which is not the default and not real simple to switch to
<cjwatson> Kim^J: ... guess you won't be wanting openoffice.org then
<laga> mjg59: no, it just tends to become unusable.  but i think it got better recently
<Kim^J> cjwatson: No, not really. That's kinda out of my leauge. :)
<cjwatson> Kim^J: seriously, need a little more idea about the sorts of things you're interested in (topics rather than languages)
<laga> we always need python slaves for mythbuntu ;)
<Kim^J> laga: NO WAY.
<Kim^J> I avoid Python as much as I can.
<laga> heh
<Kim^J> cjwatson: Hmm, I'm into computers, like when things follow KISS and are REALLY simple to use. (But not Gnome-simple, there MUST be functionality to it.)
<laga> hahaha
<highvoltage> Gnome has pleny of functionality.
<Kim^J> highvoltage: No, I go with Linus Torvalds on Gnome.
<highvoltage> Kim^J: if you want to see minmilism and oversimplicity go too far, try OSX, I tried it out and it frustrated me endlessly. but I'm not going to discuss that here.
<_MMA_> *sigh* This is gonna be productive.
<calc> Amaranth: yea for 3d test, though compiz is on by default now, for testing webcam's built into laptops, etc cheese looks like it would work well
<Kim^J> highvoltage: I don't want oversimplicity, but I shouldn't have to dig into a tonne of manuals just to get something really simple to work. (I haven't seen this yet though...)
<Kim^J> highvoltage: And btw, I have tried OS X. :)
<\sh> whoever proposed the new default ff page...cudos for it...well done, looks really incredible
<stgraber> just noticed it, indeed that's really great job
<\sh> but this "uninstall feature" which is advertised on ubuntu.com, I really don't understand....what is left when you uninstall ubuntu?
<cjwatson> \sh: it's meant as a joke - I think it's a mistake
<cjwatson> (rather, I think it's a mistaken humour target since it's something people request)
<_MMA_> Sure its not related to Wubi?
 * _MMA_ looks.
<\sh> cjwatson, hehe...my statement was a joke, too...in the spirit of this ad :) actually it made me laugh :)
<cjwatson> not really as written
<\sh> _MMA_, really no
<cjwatson> although it is true that wubi allows uninstallation
<\sh> cjwatson, and again thx for fixing this >2TB part stuff...it helped me a lot
<cjwatson> glad to help
<highvoltage> \sh: how's hardy running on your servers?
<evand> I figured that's what the ad was referring to.
<\sh> highvoltage, rock solid :)
<highvoltage> \sh: *excellent*
<\sh> highvoltage, it took me around 15-20 mins to install server + application ...
<highvoltage> \sh: the magic of ubuntu and free software :)
<\sh> highvoltage, actually, my colleague said: "dude, why do you install beta software, hardy's not ready for release"
 * jdong has seeded 27GiB since the morning
<stgraber> jdong_: 93G so far here :)
<jdong> stgraber: nice :)
 * stgraber is watching his monthly quota melting
<\sh> I told him, "friend, it's two days before final release the RC is rock solid, and I trust at least my work on hardy...so go to hell with your "it's beta software"
<highvoltage> \sh: yeah, I read your blog entry on it
<\sh> "i know most people working on it...and I trust them with my last penny"
<\sh> highvoltage, there will be a followup .. the product and some pictures...
<\sh> when I finished to upgrade to hardy from my dapper root
<mok0> seeding at 1.4 MB/s
<mok0> 8Gb so far
 * highvoltage wish he could have that kind of connection
<mok0> BT is awesome
<Hobbsee> mok0: i've been seeding at 15MB/s for the past few hours...
<mok0> Whoa
<Hobbsee> it's....really nice
<Hobbsee> but man, ti chews bandwidth.
<Hobbsee> (that's an ave bandwidth, not a max)
 * laga has been seeding at 1mbit/s :/
<stgraber> 20MB/s for some hours here too (server is on Gigabit)
<laga> now it's down to 400kbit/s. sad
<highvoltage> mok0: BT as in British Telecom?
<\sh> if (server is back again) then { starting btlaunchmanycurses . --max_upload_rate 300} else { wasted bandwidth at all }
<mok0> highvoltage: BT as in BitTorrent
<highvoltage> mok0: shew :)
<mok0> highvoltage: hehe
<mok0> I don't remember other Ubuntu releases distributed via torrents... I may be wrong...
<\sh> mok0, since hoary or breezy I think?
<mok0> \sh: ah ,ok
<\sh> but I think maswan will have a lot of fun watching the trafic meter today ;)
<mok0> From the upload stats I estimated that i386 is more popular than amd64 in the ratio 2:1
<mok0> s/estimated/estimate
<\sh> mok0, well, most people are still using i386 over amd64...
<\sh> mok0, desktop wise...
<mok0> right amd64 server is doing better
<\sh> and today I found a nice glitch in php5 and zend-framework
<\sh> using crc32 is PITA
<\sh> (means, a different behaviour on i386 and amd64)
<mok0> Going now, see you
<\sh> Kids, don't do that at home....
<\sh> root@server3:~# w
<\sh> <\sh>  19:46:53 up 188 days,  5:29,  2 users,  load average: 85,26, 138,34, 151,94
<highvoltage> shew
<\sh> dapper rocks...
<\sh> it just doesn't want to die
<highvoltage> at least it's coming down and not up :)
<\sh> a load of over 100 and this fcking bastard still serves dircproxy really nicely.
<\sh> smtp, imap, web , everything's doomed, but dircproxy still works lol
<\sh> highvoltage, yeah.. load average: 3,17, 64,95, 118,83 nice numbers...really
<\sh> mysql went crazy...too many connections...why soever.,..I need to investigate
<\sh> and finally ordered a new rootserver as a fall back
<\sh> 4GB ram, dual core opteron , 800 GB storage, unlimited traffic..
<bluefoxicy> guys update-manager is just hanging trying to get the update program for 8.04
<bluefoxicy> the servers are freaking loaded ~_~  Have you considered using a bittorrent-like method?
<bluefoxicy> I must go to work now
<highvoltage> bluefoxicy: I think there was a spec for that once
<laga> i wonder why canonical doesn't buy some bandwidth from akamai for the release
<\sh> laga, akamai is expensive ...
<laga> oh. i thought they might throw in a few terabytes for $5 or so ;)
<\sh> laga, and they don't follow your rules..but you have to follow their rules...sometimes this is not possible
<zul> torrents are available though
<realist> akamai pricing is negotiable too
<laga> \sh: i've never worked with them. i've just heard they have mad bandwidth
<realist> laga: they cache your content at their own POPs
<realist> Like, a distributed proxy
<\sh> laga, bandwidth is no problem today
<laga> \sh: why are people complaining about slow mirrors then? ;)
<highvoltage> \sh: have you forgotten what south africa is like!?
<\sh> highvoltage, no :)
<\sh> highvoltage, but actually it's only a matter of money today :)
<Keybuk> Err http://gb.archive.ubuntu.com gutsy Release.gpg
<Keybuk>   Could not connect to gb.archive.ubuntu.com:80 (194.169.254.10), connection timed out
<Keybuk> STOP HAMMERING THE RUDDY DATA CENTRE :p
<highvoltage> Keybuk: sorry :)
 * \sh waits for mirroring archive.ubuntu.com until next week
<highvoltage> \sh: don't you have a local mirror to mirror from?
<\sh> highvoltage, the local de.mirror gives me 43kB/s
<\sh> highvoltage, and mostly this mirror is outdated when I start my mirror job
<\sh> highvoltage, and every german mirror at all...
<highvoltage> \sh: ouch
<\sh> highvoltage, actually I mirrored the company mirror from my home machine ;)
<highvoltage> \sh: been there :)
<nxvl> i thought that the day after release would be calm and a little like vacation
<nxvl> but now i know that are the worsts days!
<laga> is it the day after release? still release day for me :)
<nxvl> i mean the days
<highvoltage> still release day in most places
<nxvl> including the release day
<nxvl> well i could say "after release" insted of "the days after"
<\sh> nxvl, it's not down under or near there, here :)
<nxvl> \sh: huh?
<\sh> nxvl, germany has still 4 hours to go to call it "after release day" ;)
<nxvl> \sh: oh! yes, here it is still 11 hours
<nxvl> \sh: but i mean from the moment of the release to some days after that
<\sh> nxvl, yeah..but .NZ or .AU is already "after release day" imho
<nxvl> or at least is what i wanted to say
<alex-weej> Linux 2.6.24-16 hangs on "Begin: Waiting for root file system... ..." whereas -15 doesn't
<alex-weej> eventually it claims /dev/disk/by-uuid/etc doesn't exist
<Kim^J> \sh: NZ/AU as in what?
<\sh> new zealand , australia
<Kim^J> Ah
<Kim^J> I have 4 hours left on release day. :)
 * \sh needs a smoke...and some more beer
<realist> Conincidently, it's ANZAC day today :-)
<Kim^J> \sh: If you're in Germany, I'm above you. :)
<\sh> Kim^J, hmm...8:12pm here...
<Kim^J> \sh: 2013 here. :)
<johanbr> Kim^J: You're five years in the future?
<Kim^J> johanbr: Naaah. :P Time. :P
<Kim^J> johanbr: And hey. :)
<\sh> Kim^J, so it's the same time actually ;) 8:27pm is in 24h mode: 2027 ;)
<Kim^J> \sh: I know, I just prefer to write 0000 (Military-damage...)
<cjwatson> Keybuk: gb.archive isn't in the datacentre ...
<Keybuk>  5. ubuntu.datahop.it                 0.0%     2   39.4  39.8  39.4  40.1   0.5
<Keybuk> ?
<Keybuk> yes it is
<elmo> no it's not
<Keybuk> no?
<elmo> no
<Keybuk> where is that then
<elmo> it's our hardware, but hosted by datahop, in one of their data centres
<ogra> one could have guessed that :) .... (ubuntu.datahop.it)
<Keybuk> ahh
<Keybuk> I thought datahop meant it was the dh pipe to our data centre
<elmo> no, the dh pipe is called canonical-gw.datahop.it or something
<Keybuk> silly me
<Keybuk> is it stacked on top of boxes of beer?
<calc> what is the command to generate the uuid's in /etc/fstab?
<calc> er to find out what they are for a partition i mean
<cjwatson> vol_id --uuid
<calc> ah ok
 * calc thinks that should be in the comments at the top of /etc/fstab
<hunger> The servers are ridiculously slow, so you probably managed to release;-) Congratulations to a job well done.
<Jessica_lilly> im using the native linux drivers for my wireless card and hardy is just freezing and wont come out of the freeze but everything else seems good so thanks for the realese
<laga> Jessica_lilly: you should file a bug report
<Jessica_lilly> the card i have is known to cause problems with linux no distro can make it work but ubuntu
<Jessica_lilly> and it will only work for me in gutsy
<sabdfl> very well done all
 * _MMA_ waves.
<megabyte405> congrats on the release, hitting the torrent now.  looking forward to finishing up the abiword integration soon
<mario_limonciell> slangasek, has the DVD final not been mastered?  I got through to cdimages.ubuntu.com briefly but didn't see it there.
<calc> mario_limonciell: it was there earlier today
<cjwatson> mario_limonciell: should be http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/releases/8.04/release/
<mario_limonciell> cjwatson, hm DVD's too? didn't see this morning, but i'll keep trying to get connected and see.
<cjwatson> mario_limonciell: that directory just has DVDs and source
<mathiaz> jcastro: is it possible to change the category of an idea on brainstorm ?
<mathiaz> stgraber: ^^
<jcastro> mathiaz: stgraber is the person to ask - let me know what the answer is though, I am interested as well
 * jcastro doesn't see a way to change it
<mathiaz> jcastro: oh - I've found it - edit the description
<mathiaz> jcastro: there is menu to change the category
<jcastro> ah, nice
<juliank> cjwatson: I send you an email, but please don't answer, as it's the wrong one. I'll send a new one to the list.
<juliank> cjwatson: The second one is sent
<Caesar> tjaalton: where's the source package for the fix for #113679?
<smallfoot-> the new start page in firefox for 8.04 is much better than old one, its much easier!
<smallfoot-> thx
<RussellGee> im in love with it :p
<crimsun> alex-weej: heh, thought as much.
<n6rej> I hope someone is here to help because I've REAL problems all of the sudden on my server after upgrading to hardy :(
<n6rej> its saying it SRST faileD?
<n6rej> can someone PLEASE help?
<laga> n6rej: try #ubuntu
<laga> and make sure to provide the complete error message
<n6rej> yeah, its crazy over there
<n6rej> laga: I generally do.  Its saying /dev/disk/byuuid/blah does not exist :(
<n6rej> thats what I came here when nobody answered over there
<smallfoot-> plz add 7z support out-of-the-box
<ted1> smallfoot-: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
#ubuntu-devel 2008-04-25
<smallfoot-> i want 2.6.25 plz
<bryce> smallfoot-: you can download it from http://kernel.org/
<Forgery> hey, is anybody here?
<smallfoot-> bryce, then i have todo mad stuff like compile it
<smallfoot-> Forgery, yes plz
<smallfoot-> bryce,  cant someone compile it, make a .deb and put it in a repo
<Forgery> hey
<Forgery> i'm installing the new 8.04 and yea i'm a complete newb to this
<Forgery> i'm installing it on an old box so it isnt the fastest thing in the world but it could run XP ok so it's not bad
<Forgery> I get to the screen when I can see the bird as the wallpaper
<Forgery> but there are no icons on the desktop
<Forgery> the green cd light is flashing away but nothing is happening
<Forgery> is this meant to happen?
<laga> Forgery: how much memory does it have?
<Forgery> erm
<Forgery> 256
<Forgery> i think
<bryce> smallfoot-: 2.6.25 was just recently released and is not stable, so only people comfortable with compiling it themselves should be using it
<Forgery> ooo somethings happening....
<laga> Forgery: i'm not sure if 256M is enough
<Forgery> ok the screen just turned off
<Forgery> really?
<Forgery> i thought if it could run XP
<bryce> Forgery: I would suggest at least 384M, better with 512
<Forgery> then it would have no problem with this
<Forgery> ok let me check the memory
<Forgery> i think i can still access as windows
<Forgery> about to find out anyway
<bryce> Forgery: I'd be surprised if you could run XP on 256M without performance issues
<laga> Forgery: try the alternate disk maybe, that should install better
<bryce> but I haven't used windows in a long time
<bryce> Forgery: you may find Xubuntu runs easier on 256m
<Forgery> ok
<Forgery> if it's a case of getting a little extra memory then that isnt expensive really
<Forgery> haha!
<Forgery> 128 :$
<jcastro> Forgery: note that ubuntu doesn't have icons on the desktop by default, so unless you have a usb key plugged in or something then not having icons on the desktop is normal
<Forgery> i know but there was nothing on the screen, no task bar or anything
<jcastro> oh oh
<Forgery> although the 128m memory might explain it! haha
<bryce> 128m??
<Forgery> 128mb
<bryce> ouch, yeah that'd be your problem ;-)
<Forgery> haha that's funny
<Forgery> ok anoother question i'd like to ask although it isnt specific to linux
<bryce> also, like laga said, the LiveCD loads everything into memory, so on such a low memory system you should use the alternate cd
<Forgery> is what's the best way to find if I have DDR or DDR2?
<Forgery> i can only assume it's DDR on my old box, simply because its old
<Forgery> but it's something I don't know how to dfind out
<Forgery> is the best way to find the make of the motherboard?
<bryce> yeah refer to your mboard manual
<Forgery> so where do you find the name of your motherboard on it
<bryce> Forgery: also please be aware this channel is more for development and not support, so you may want to ask these q's on #ubuntu
<bryce> (see topic)
<bryce> Forgery, sudo lshw
<Forgery> ok, sorry guys, was just the first one i could find
<bryce> no prob
<Forgery> i'll go off investigate
<Forgery> thank you for your help guys! much appreciated
<Forgery> bye
<FrankH> hi. what is the new package name for vim-full in 8.04?
<ion_> apt-cache show vim-full
<FrankH> tried that. doesn't return anything
<FrankH> suggest vim-gnome
<ion_> You might not have universe enabled. Also, please see the topic.
<FrankH> universe is enabled. sorry if this is not a devel question.
<FrankH> hoped that someone in here had the same issue
<smallfoot-> when does 8.10 ibex start? when is the first alpha? ;)
<nxvl> elmo: ping
 * Twigathy waves
<Twigathy> Can I request a version bump on a package? The initramfs-tools package has a bug which means dhcp-based nfsroot booting does not work. See debian bug#39514 and ubuntu launchpad bug# 221613. All that is required to fix is to bump from 0.85eubuntu36 to something 0.88 flavoured (Where the bug is allegedly fixed...)
<CheGuevara> hardy has just been released
<Twigathy> I'm working around this atm by specifying IP address / netmask etc. manually but it'd be nice if dhcp would work :)
<CheGuevara> and hardy+1 not started yet
<CheGuevara> a bit of bad timing :P
<Twigathy> yeah, I know :)
<CheGuevara> file a bug
<Twigathy> Maybe I should become a beta tester - using weird things like nfsroot..
<Twigathy> yep - have done so
<niadh> Just wanna report a bug here, regarding hal not being restarted upon upgrade to hardy, spent hours working out a problem with banshee and ipods, only to discover hal needed to be restarted manually, I'm told I shouldn't have had to do this, so figured i would report it
<Twigathy> niadh: https://bugs.launchpad.net :)
<niadh> I may need some help about specifics to write, but I'll definatly submit it
<wgrant> niadh: You're meant to reboot after upgrades....
<wgrant> niadh: But I thought it was restarted unless you were coming from Dapper.
<niadh> I DID reboot after the upgrade
<niadh> And i upgraded from 7.10
<wgrant> So you had to restart hal twice?
<niadh> Just updated my system to all the latest patches via update manager, THEN ran the upgrade procedure. Yeah, system rebooted and then I had to manually restart hal
<niadh> just to confirm the upgrade procedure DOES restart hal?
<jdong> -rw-r--r--  1 jdong jdong  30M 2008-04-24 23:56 urlclassifier3.sqlite
<jdong> asac: ^^ err I think the URL classifier thing is a security vulnerability. It's slowing down my browser's performance :D
<jdong> asac: but more seriously, it's adding serious latency and CPU spinning to opening every URL. The file regenerates to around that size every few days.
<Amaranth> jdong: what is it?
<jdong> Amaranth: I think it's the phishing detector thing
<jdong> Amaranth: but it grows at some annoying rate of 5MB/day
<Amaranth> right, i'll disable that then
<Amaranth> could this be why firefox randomly locks up and beats the crap out of my HD?
<jdong> Amaranth: exactly
<jdong> Amaranth: it's sqlite journaling activity
<jdong> Amaranth: which enforces a sync()
<jdong> on *every* *page* *load*
<jcastro> jdong: asac is aware, as is upstream
<jcastro> upstream is working on a fix
<jcastro> it's bug 215728
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 215728 in firefox-3.0 "High CPU Consumption" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215728
<tjaalton> Caesar: you should be able to find it on launchpad
<pwnguin> i wonder if this affects liferea
<pwnguin> i think it uses webkit or something to render
<wgrant> liferea uses xulrunner-1.9, pwnguin...
<jdong> jcastro: ok, thank you!
<warp10> Good morning!
<pwnguin> wgrant: i dont know a whole lot about the liferea source code, but I do see this: http://liferea.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/liferea/trunk/liferea/src/webkit/
<jcastro> jdong: the current plan is for mozilla to attach a patch to an lp bug, then we'll roll it out via ppa. If you could subscribe to the bug and help test when that's available it would help a great deal
<wgrant> pwnguin: We use the xulrunner-1.9 backend.
<pwnguin> ah, multiple backends, i see
<jdong> jcastro: I'd be more than happy to :)
<jcastro> jdong: <3
<dholbach> good morning
<pwnguin> oh dear, this has gotten way out of hand: http://np237.livejournal.com/17716.html
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> hi pitti
<geser> Guten Morgen pitti
<tjaalton> help.ubuntu.com still has 7.10 material
<tjaalton> um, I mean no 8.04
<mdke> tjaalton: yes, it will take at least a few days to get it ready
<mdke> tjaalton: but if you file a bug report on ubuntu-doc you can follow its progress
 * mdke gtg
<tjaalton> mdke: ok, no rush :)
<edugonch>  hello, do somebody have problems with Anjuta and glade, I start edit a widget but when I close Anjuta and then I open again and choose glade IDE Anjuta doesn't open
<asac> jdong: do you have your .mozilla dir on a special filesystem?
<james_w> I've got a couple of bugs to propose for SRU to Hardy. Do we have to wait for them to be fixed in Intrepid as normal, or can we propose them now? The one I have in mind will be fixed in Intrepid in the first run of the auto-sync.
<pitti> james_w: that's fine
<pitti> james_w: i. e. feel free to open SRU bugs now, we already did a few
<james_w> great, thanks.
<james_w> pitti: oh, and thanks for getting back on the ca-certificates SRU, you rock!
<pitti> james_w: no problem; sorry for the latency
<james_w> it's understandable.
<fabbione> hey guys
<pitti> hey fabbione, how are you?
<fabbione> pitti: good thanks and you?=
<pitti> I'm intrepid today :)
<fabbione> pitti: eheheh..
<fabbione> did they already opened the repo in lp?
<pitti> no, not yet
<fabbione> ok
<seb128> hum, bug #215499
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 215499 in nautilus "Nautilus not preserving timestamps" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/215499
<seb128> does anybody has an opinion if a standard copy should preserve timestamps or not?
<seb128> I would tend to say that since cp doesn't do it by default nautilus shouldn't
<cjwatson> sounds like cp vs. cp -a to me
<seb128> right
<seb128> but cp -a is not the default
<seb128> I'm not sure it should be in nautilus either
<seb128> but I'm no good argument out of "that's the standard unix way"
<seb128> s/I'm/I've
<cjwatson> seems like it'd be nice to have a way to do cp -a, though; timestamps are valuable information you might want to preserve in a backup
<cjwatson> even if it isn't the default
<soren> "can't fully use my laptop because of this"... Yay, proportions.
<seb128> right
<cjwatson> I don't have a strong opinion on whether it should be the default or not, although I know that I have a reflex of using cp -a unless I explicitly think "hmm, I don't need the timestamp"
<seb128> I'll change that to a wishlsit to add an option doing that
<seb128> I don't think changing the default makes sense
<cjwatson> bug report says "whether cross-partition or the same partition" - is the behaviour the same for both cases at the moment?
<seb128> or maybe a gconf key to change the default
<realist> Perhaps a checkbox, that says "preserve timestamps/permissions"?
<seb128> I've to check if cross partition behaves different
<seb128> realist: where?
<seb128> realist: you usually get no dialog when doing a dnd or ctrl-C, ctrl-V
<realist> seb128: I don't know, I don't use nautilus. In a preferences dialog?
<seb128> ok, an option then
<soren> Where does LANG and LC_* get set when I log in on the console?
<geser> soren: doesn't pam_env.so take care of it?
<soren> geser: Oh, there it is. Yes, it does.
<soren> geser: Thanks!
<abli> Hi! I am having problems with consolekit on a fresh hardy install. After the default install I installed kubuntu-desktop. Now in a gnome session, running  ck-list-sessions prints "active = FALSE" even for the current session under gnome. As a result automounting usb thumbdrives break because only the active session has permission to do so (by default settings)
<abli> any ideas why the active session is not set correctly or what should I check?
<Riddell> works for me in KDE
<abli> yes, works for me in kde as well. but not in gnome
<Riddell> abli: using KDM?
<abli> no. gdm
<abli> I only installed kubuntu-desktop to get kde as a second option. I want to use gnome as default, and have the possibility of switching to kde
<cjwatson> abli: works for me in GNOME, FWIW
<cjwatson> ah, though I don't have kubuntu-desktop installed
<abli> Yeah, I assume it works for everyone but me. The question is, what should be setting that flag so I can debug why it isn't set.
<cjwatson> abli: normally that gets changed by consolekit when the active VT is changed to the one corresponding to the session
<abli> cjwatson, ok. does consolekit write logs somewhere?
<cjwatson> though I admit I don't know whether something else deals with it when the session is initialised
<cjwatson> IME the best way to track what consolekit is doing is to attach a monitor to the D-BUS
<cjwatson> it's a bit hairy ...
<cjwatson> (p.s. I'm not a consolekit expert, I just know what I needed to figure out in order to implement support for it in openssh)
<abli> ok, I'll try that
<cjwatson> I suspect that d-bus messages won't be sent for consolekit's internal actions though
<cjwatson> abli: I believe you can run the daemon with --debug
<abli> ok, I'll try that, too :)
<cjwatson> not sure whether you have to do anything special - you'll probably have to close all sessions and shut down the running daemon first
<cjwatson> probably --debug --no-daemon too
<thom> grrrr.
<thom> Apr 25 12:50:13 madrigal kernel: [18896.521532] gnome-keyring-d[5102]: segfault at 7f511b0d5000 rip 42dce0 rsp 46e90d20 error 7
<laga> thom: apport?
<wgrant> thom: I saw a bug on that an hour or two ago.
<thom> laga: unfortunately not
<wgrant> laga: apport is off now.
<laga> wgrant: i was suggesting that he enables it again to catch the segfault, but it's probably not necessary if there is already a bug report.
<wgrant> Hm, maybe it was on the forum. I can't see the relevant bug.
<wgrant> Could be bug #218434, I guess.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 218434 in gnome-keyring "gnome-keyring-daemon crashed with SIGSEGV" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218434
<thom> yeah, pretty hard to tell
<thom> i guess i'll just try again
<cody-somerville> Why are my posts to ubuntu-devel being held for moderation saying I'm not a developer? :)
<cody-somerville> I'm sending from my @ubuntu.com address.
<wgrant> cody-somerville: Probably because you need to manually request the sync these days, I guess.
<wgrant> I've seen a couple of other people complain about that recently.
<cody-somerville> Is elmo the person I need to chat with?
<highvoltage> cody-somerville: I think the admins of the list need to add you to a whitelist of some kind first
<soren> Could someone let new virtinst into hardy-proposed, please?
<seb128> soren: open a bug, subscribe ubuntu-sru, etc
<seb128> soren: and wait for pitti to be back from lunch ;-)
<soren> seb128: Already did.
<soren> Ah.. I did not do that.
<soren> :)
<soren> (wait for pitti to get back from lunch, that is)
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: I wonder if it only looks at direct members of ubuntu-dev - mostly people are members via the motu team these days
<canburak> hi, I want to mirror just the latest release of ubuntu. hos is that possible? ~200GB is so much for me
<cjwatson> canburak: use debmirror with --dist=hardy
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, but the xml file thingy will return an aggregated list... so unless they're screen scrapping...
<highvoltage> canburak: why would you want to mirror it, to act as a local mirror?
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: I don't know - #canonical-sysadmin would be a good place to ask
<cjwatson> highvoltage: local mirrors are very common and I hardly see the need to ask why :-)
 * cjwatson has one himself
 * highvoltage too :)
<highvoltage> cjwatson: but the reason is important though, if you only want it for one arch being used in your office, you don't need to download the others
<highvoltage> cjwatson: and he probably doesn't need to download the source packages either
<cjwatson> true, best to read the debmirror manual page
<highvoltage> *nod* canburak ^^^
<canburak> highvoltage: no to act as a provate mirror. currently I don't have the required space for a local mirror
<highvoltage> canburak: ah, then you probably just need i386 (or 64bit) binaries for main universe multiverse and restricted, which would be 20GB or so
<canburak> i once had a country mirror for TR and nuked when i was in bad mood :)
<highvoltage> canburak: but check the debmirror manpage, it's probably your best bet.
<canburak> highvoltage: is it possible to use debmirror of the debian installation to mirror ubuntu?
<highvoltage> canburak: yes, you might just have to use the newest available debmirror that already knows about hardy
<canburak> highvoltage: my mirror is on etch
<canburak> and you suggest to use (if available) debmirror from backports?
<canburak> and you suggest to use (if available) debmirror from debian-backports?
<wgrant> debmirror doesn't have to know about the suite, does it?
<cjwatson> canburak: pretty much any version of debmirror should do just fine; highvoltage is mistaken here, it doesn't have to specifically know about hardy
<cjwatson> I'm using the version of debmirror in Debian stable to mirror hardy, with no problems
<highvoltage> hmm, yes I am. I confused debmirror with debootstrap a bit, I think.
<cjwatson> debootstrap does have to be up to date, yes
<cjwatson> (when one is using it)
<canburak> hmm thanks i'll give a try
<pitti> soren: what's up?
<pitti> soren: ah, virtinst; I'll deal with it
<soren> pitti: Thanks very much.
<evand> cody-somerville: I'll tkae care of it.  Sorry, your email got buried in my inbox.
<evand> oh, that was Scott Ritchie
<highvoltage> who was?
<evand> Scott emailed me saying that his emails were being put in the moderation queue.
<cody-somerville> evand, mine too :P
<evand> cody-somerville: hrm, better check with the sysadmins, I'm not sure how that bit is set up as no one on the list has the moderation bit set.
<cody-somerville> It says I'm not a developer
<evand> cody-somerville: I've asked in #canonical-sysadmin as this is beyond my control.
<pecisk> hi guys, in our locale, in last minute changes, some update in xlrunner b0rked security exception dialog, therefore lots of people can't log in on internet via wifi. It is known issue for other languages/more general issue?
<sistpoty|work> can an archive admin please shove libitpp through hardy-proposed binary new? thanks.
<pitti> sistpoty|work: ugh, NEW for stables?
<sistpoty|work> pitti: yeah, it's a leftover from the gfortran transition... but fortunately it doesn't have rdepends
<ScottK> Unfortunately I didn't find the missed spot in the transition until about 6 hours after the archive closed
 * sistpoty|work didn't find it at all
<ScottK> pitti: Would you be up for some archive work on clamav updates/backports?
<pitti> sistpoty|work: ok, I'll have a look later; I'd like to finish my current hack job first, to not loose so much brain state
<sistpoty|work> pitti: sure, no hurries ;)
<evand> YokoZar: Can you join #canonical-sysadmin?
<cjwatson> evand: it's done in the sender filters, but people in ubuntu-dev ought to be processed automatically without needing to be in there by hand
<cjwatson> so adding them by hand will make it work short-term but isn't really the right answer long-term
<cjwatson> evand: (privacy options -> sender filters -> accept_these_nonmembers is what we use for non-developer autoaccepts)
<evand> cjwatson: ah
<evand> cjwatson: I've since taken it to #canonical-sysadmin to see if there's a problem with the processing code.  Spads is looking into it.
<edugonch_> Hello, I have install code:blocks but I have problems when I try to compile a project, an error with a file wx/setup.h that not is found
<edugonch_> any help please
<Kim^J> edugonch_: Install wxwidgets.
<Kim^J> Aslo, this is not the channel for such a question I think.
<sistpoty|work> (-dev to be more precise... headers will always be in the -dev packages)
<Kim^J> sistpoty|work: Ah correct... Too used to Arch now, which installs it all.
<cjwatson> mvo: how are the Translation-* files updated? I notice that their mtimes are 22 Feb
<cjwatson> which seems a bit old for hardy, really
<mvo> cjwatson: there were issues with rosetta that made updates difficult - I can manually work around those, its more effort. I will prepare a update now (its a special upload handler)
<mvo> cjwatson: I discussed a spec how the translations can/should be improved within rosetta/LP but I is not implemented yet (or even assigned)
<cjwatson> I'm wondering whether we can/should push that into hardy directly, rather than updates
<mvo> hm, not sure if that is possible
<cjwatson> I don't approve of updating Packages post-release, obviously, but this doesn't seem like it would cause practical problems
<cjwatson> if you upload to hardy directly, it ought to get held for approval
<mvo> we may push them into -proposed first, I don't think there will be problems, its probably best to test them there first
<mvo> but for .1 we should have them in main hardy IMHO
<cjwatson> I very much doubt that the usual copy-out-of-proposed trick will work, so they'll need to be reuploaded
<mvo> that should be ok I think
<cjwatson> my only concern is that the Rosetta export should happen ASAP so that it's close to what real hardy ought to have been
<mvo> ok, I request the export now
<cjwatson> mvo: what's the translation component in Launchpad called, just for my curiosity?
<mvo> cjwatson: translated-package-descriptions is the name of Source: and Binary: in the changes file
<cjwatson> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/translated-package-descriptions doesn't exist though
<cjwatson> just wondering where to direct people who want to translate it
<mvo> cjwatson: oh, sorry - I misunderstood the question. its called ddtp-ubuntu
<mvo> https://edge.launchpad.net/ddtp-ubuntu
<mvo> I keep syncing those with debian
<cjwatson> ah, right, thanks
<cjwatson> syncing those must be a horrible job
<mvo> yeah, the scripts do most of the work, but its still time consuming
<Hobbsee> mvo: you screwed up!
<tseliot> mvo: any ideas as to why this happens? bug #221977
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 221977 in gnome-control-center "Cannot enable compiz with the fglrx driver (ATI X1600)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/221977
<mvo> tseliot: that is a mobile ati one? that might be a (unintended) side-effect of our mobile ati test :/
<tseliot> no, a standalone card
<tseliot> ï»¿mvo: Compiz works well if launched from the command line
<tseliot> ï»¿mvo: my card is an ATI X1600 Pro 256MB
<mvo> tseliot: could you please check what .xsession-errors says when you enable it?
<mvo> tseliot: strange that it works fine if you run it on the commandline
<mvo> it should be just the same
<tseliot> mvo: sure, let me check
<ramvi> ï»¿I have an openPGP key on Launchpad. I'm trying to build a deb, but I'm not allowed because I don't have an gpg key (fresh ubuntu install). How do I activate my old gpg key in Ubuntu?
<mjg59> ramvi: If you no longer have the secret key, you don't
<ramvi> I have the secret key
<mjg59> Then use it
<ramvi> Right, how? I can only find how to make a new pgp thing in the wiki
<mjg59> Just copy the keyring into your new install
<mjg59> It's in the .gnupg directory
<Amaranth> ramvi: You're supposed to keep the key
<cjwatson> ramvi: are you just building the .deb for personal use?
<Amaranth> Guard it with your life and never delete it
<ramvi> cjwatson: no
<cjwatson> ah
<ramvi> Amaranth: Oh, I have deleted it..
<tseliot> mvo: here it is: http://pastebin.com/m1e3a1f55
<Amaranth> ramvi: Then you don't have a key
<ramvi> Amaranth: Didn't know I was suppost to keep it. So I have to create a new one? Can't download from the keyserver?
<ramvi> Amaranth: right, stupid me
<Amaranth> The keyserver only has the public key
<mjg59> ramvi: The secret half of the key never goes anywhere near the keyserver
<mjg59> That's why it's secret
<ramvi> :)
<ramvi> thanks
<mjg59> (please don't upload the secret part of your key anywhere at any point!)
<mvo> tseliot: right, that is a bug in "jockey" (There is no available graphics driver for your system which supports the composite extension.) - that message comes from jockey
<mvo> ^--- pitti could you please have a look?
<tseliot> mvo: ok, I have edited the bugreport so that it affects jockey
<pitti> mvo: right, I already talked with tseliot about it; I'm still not sure which exit codes the applet expects
<pitti> mvo: ATM it exits with 0 iff it installed a compositing-enabling driver
<d1nker_> has anyone fixed the smb:// and network:// bug yet?
<pitti> mvo: i. e. it exits 1 if installation failed or there is no driver, or you don't need one
<pitti> mvo: I guess we need more exit codes then
<pitti> mvo: jockey currently does not know about all possible X drivers and whether they already support composite
<pitti> mvo: it only knows composite support for the drivers it can handle (nvidia, fglrx)
<pitti> mvo: I guess we need to redefine the exit code protocol
<slangasek> d1nker_: that's a bit imprecise; do you have a bug number for the issue you're referring to?
<slangasek> d1nker_: or can you explain what the bug is that you're talking about?
<d1nker_> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/+bug/185756
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 185756 in gvfs "Couldn't display "network:///" - Nautilus cannot handle network:locations" [Medium,Fix released]
<mvo> pitti: can/should it not just do the same as it does when nvidia is already installed/enabled on the system?
<Amaranth> d1nker_: They work fine here
<slangasek> d1nker_: well, yes, that bug was fixed some time ago
<seb128> d1nker_: that bug has been fixed some months ago as indicated
<pitti> mvo: so far I thought the applet would only call jockey if the current driver would not support composite
<d1nker_> how do I apply the patch?
<pitti> mvo: I didn't know it would *always* call jockey before enabling
<Amaranth> d1nker_: The bug did not affect 7.10 and is fixed for 8.04
<pitti> mvo: I think it does
<slangasek> d1nker_: all that's required is to log out and log back in after upgrading from the older version of pre-release hardy to the official Ubuntu 8.04
<d1nker_> I still have the exact same problem as described with 8.04 (fresh install this morning) should I reopen the bug
<slangasek> d1nker_: if network:/// still doesn't work for you, then you have some other bug and we'd need more information about your symptoms
<slangasek> d1nker_: if you freshly installed 8.04, then no, you don't have that bug
<Amaranth> In a bug report, preferably
<mvo> pitti: I check the code out, we should milestone it for .1
<pitti> mvo: right; compiz itself knows whether the current driver is composite-capable, right? can the applet ask compiz, and only ask jockey to install a driver if the current driver doesn't work?
<pitti> mvo: (the option should really be --install-composite, not --check)
<mvo> pitti: yeah, the option is pretty unfortunately named - well, its a bit more complicated, compiz does not really know until it is started, this is why we have the wrapper script
<pitti> oh
<mvo> pitti: we would have to add a --check-only option to the wrapper to get this information
<d1nker_> when I go to places - connect to server and select windows share, fill the info out I get an error that says "Can't display location smb://SERVERNAME" No application is registered as handling the file
<mvo> pitti: maybe the best solution is to just remove the cal to jockey entirely
<pitti> mvo: or, just try to enable it, and if that fails, call jockey?
<mvo> pitti: the user knows about the misisng nvidia driver already from the notification bublle
<mvo> pitti: hm, yeah, we could do that too (start, if it fails call jockey)
<pitti> mvo: so, don't check if compiz would work, just start it and check if it fails?
<pitti> if the magic test script would return "thumbs up", you'd just start compiz anyway, right?
<seb128> d1nker_: that's a different issue, does places, networks give an error?
<slangasek> d1nker_: to clarify, that's the Places -> Network menu in the desktop
<pitti> mvo: btw, bug 208026 is also related to that
<mvo> pitti: yeah, start it, if that fails, run jockey
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 208026 in gnome-control-center "gnome-appearance-properties asks for reboot if you cancel ATI driver install" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/208026
<d1nker_> Places -> Network works fine it's when you enter information into the Places -> Connect to Server -> Service Type: Windows Share
<pitti> mvo: I think that part does need a separate exit code
<mvo> pitti: yeah
<pitti> mvo: although, hmm
<pitti> mvo: it only asks for reboot if the driver was installed, right?
<pitti> mvo: i. .e if jockey returns 0
<pitti> mvo: in that case, the bug might just be that jockey returns with 0 if the install was cancelled
<mvo> hm, right
<slangasek> d1nker_: for shares that I know to work, I'm able to connect without error on 8.04.  Is this a share that requires authentication?
<d1nker_> yes
<pitti> mvo: right, I just checked the code
<pitti> mvo: I'll get that fixed in jockey
<d1nker_> which if I access it using the control+L option I can get to
<seb128> ok, so it seems to be an issue in the connect to server dialog, could you open a bug on nautilus and describe the steps you are using?
<d1nker_> yah can you send me a link, I've never submitted a bug before
<pitti> mvo: thanks; I'll summarize in the bug
<mvo> pitti: thanks
<pitti> mvo: done; I didn't assign the bug yet
<slangasek> d1nker_: in this case, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/+filebug
<strider_> hi , where can I find why there is no more multimedia tab in gnome-volume-properties ?
<pitti> tseliot: did you already file a bug about the 'envy superseded by lrm' problem?
<tseliot> pitti: the one about "-envy" lrms?
<d1nker_> thanks I'll submit the bug this afternoon
<pitti> tseliot: problem (1) in our chat
<tseliot> ï»¿pitti: bug ï»¿221968
<pitti> ah, an upstream bug
<tseliot> ï»¿pitti: d'oh!
<seb128> d1nker_: replaces gvfs by nautilus in the url, that's a nautilus issue
<pitti> tseliot: that's fine, don't worry
<slangasek> seb128: ah, oops :)
<MrDakoki> hi all
<MrDakoki> im trying to code an app
<MrDakoki> but i have a linker error  for XTest.h
<MrDakoki> i cant find the library
<slangasek> MrDakoki: see the /topic, please
<gnomefreak> mvo: doesnt update-manager have the do-upgrade flag? to upgrade gutsy > hardy?
<MrDakoki> ok
<mvo> gnomefreak: it will/should pick that information up automatically (i.e. from the internet)
<gnomefreak> ah ok thanks
<jburd> I think the upgrade tools should resolve configuration conflicts using a GUI diff/merge tool instead of asking for a file level "keep/replace"
<jburd> After upgrading I have to make changes in so many configuration files.  Using meld as part of the dist upgrade tool would have saved me that.
<duaneb> hello?
<duaneb> where can I find gtk-doc.m4?
<duaneb> it's missing from /usr/share/aclocal, and I can't find it in any package
<duaneb> ahh, gtk-doc-tools
<duaneb> ubuntu never ceases to piss me off in its separation of packages... like manpags-dev
<duaneb> took me about five months to find that
<ion_> Duane Barry? Is that you? :-) Please read the topic.
<cjwatson> 18:11 [Freenode] -!-  ircname  : Duane Bailey
 * cjwatson hands /whois to ion_
<cjwatson> duaneb: manpages-dev has been separated out in Debian for well over a decade, FWIW; not an Ubuntu-specific thing
<ion_> cjwatson: That was a joke, an X-Files reference actually.
<ion_> Thus the smiley.
<duaneb> cjwatson, it's still stupid >.<
<jdong> duaneb: it shouldn't take you 5 months to find a file in a package though :)
<cjwatson> duaneb: I disagree, and I'm sure we can agree to disagree
<duaneb> I mean, it should still be a dependency of build-essential
<cjwatson> no, it *really* shouldn't
<duaneb> cjwatson, why would you EVER want it separate
<cjwatson> build-essential is for a very specific purpose; it is not a general "help me develop stuff" package
<cjwatson> I think it's perfectly reasonable to have only manpages installed and not manpages-dev on a system that isn't used for development
<duaneb> cjwatson, then there SHOULD be a "help me develop stuff" package
<cjwatson> it's a suggestion of gcc
<duaneb> cjwatson, but if build-essential is installed...
<cjwatson> Suggests: autoconf, automake1.9, bison, flex, gcc-doc, gcc-multilib, gdb, libtool, make, manpages-dev
<slangasek> Package: gcc Depends: diveintopython ;)
<duaneb> nobody actually looks at that, though :P
<cjwatson> build-essential is there to tell you what the build daemons install by default when building packages
<cjwatson> that is its purpose
<cjwatson> and it's a very useful purpose for package maintainers
<duaneb> cjwatson, still, there should be a development bpackage
<duaneb> i.e. 'build-tools'
<cjwatson> if you want to find packages, I recommend using packages.ubuntu.com
<cjwatson> development for whom?
<duaneb> that would include the basics for development, like gcc and the manpages
<cjwatson> it would end up pulling in half the archive
<jdong> build-tools will turn into .*-dev
<duaneb> cjwatson, console development
<cjwatson> many developers never touch gcc
<cjwatson> why is your development more special than others/
<cjwatson> ?
<duaneb> cjwatson, find, gcc developers
<duaneb> cjwatson, because manpages should come with libc-dev (or whatever the package name is).
<cjwatson> I think it's a fair question. Why is your development more special than others? We have to consider a pretty wide base of people.
<persia> jdong: *-dev self-conflicts :p
<duaneb> documentation, especially those manpages, is an integral part of development
<cjwatson> it's an integral part of C development
<duaneb> cjwatson, because their development is based on c development :P
<cjwatson> I do think we need to do better at serving developers
<laga> i demand that a standard ML interpreter comes with the proposed build-tools package
<cjwatson> but lumping it all together doesn't really help anyone
<cjwatson> in the meantime, I recommend packages.ubuntu.com for finding packages
<jdong> IMO we need an apt-file like mechanism more readily accessible
<jdong> i.e. within Synaptic
<cjwatson> or a good package manager that shows suggestions
<duaneb> cjwatson, installed, manpages-dev is ~3 megabytes.
<duaneb> that's hardly 'lumping it all together'
<cjwatson> I see I am not getting anywhere
<jdong> duaneb: so's libxmms-dev and python-setuptools.
<jdong> let's put those in too
<duaneb> jdong, there's no reason to think that c developers would EVER use python
<cjwatson> in the meantime, we provide excellent search tools, and I recommend that you use them
<jdong> and g++ is too big too, and everything that g++ does can be done by gcc anyway
<jdong> let's take out g++.
<duaneb> but every c developer uses manpages-dev
<cjwatson> there is absolutely no reason it should take you five months to find anything
<duaneb> jdong, I wouldn't protest :)
<jdong> duaneb: *every* C developer uses manpages-dev?
<duaneb> jdong, I would say yes
<jdong> interesting.
<slangasek> jdong: everything that g++ does except for building C++ code, I guess you mean?
<cjwatson> gcc doesn't depend on manpages-dev because gcc is on our CD images and those three megabytes would put us over our limit.
<jdong> slangasek: you can rewrite C++ code anyway ;-)
<jdong> slangasek: that's a luxury
<slangasek> anyway, g++ is part of build-essential because of the definition of build-essential
<cjwatson> similarly libc6-dev
<cjwatson> (well, that's not the original reason why it doesn't have that dependency, but it's a very good reason not to add it now.)
<User633> hello
<User633> anyone in here
<User633> is this ubutnu irc channel correct
<pitti> !ask | User633
<ubotu> User633: Please don't ask to ask a question, ask the question (all on ONE line, so others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely answer. :-)
<pitti> User633: you probably want #ubuntu
<User633> yes
<User633> can i have to server for that to join ubunth help room
<pitti> User633: just /join #ubuntu, it's the same server
<slangasek> same server
<User633> oh really thank you
<genii> Quick question... is default user created now at install time allowed sudo? A user is telling me he can't issue sudo visudo for instance
<jdong> genii: yes, the default user is allowed sudo
<jdong> genii: add users to the "admin" group to give them sudo access
 * ScottK looks up at /topic
<jdong> ScottK: does ubotu need =~ /question/i && forward #ubuntu? :D
<ScottK> Sounds reasonable to me, but I just volunteer here.
<cjwatson> I think that's a bit much. Ubuntu developers ask each other questions too.
<genii> jdong: Were there some changes made perhaps to the sudo system ? He's telling me vi opens but he can't change or alter anything as before
<genii> I only ask here since there may be recent changes the main support channels have no knowledge of, don't mean to get support here :)
<cjwatson> genii: not since before hoary
<cjwatson> (not at that kind of level anyway, of course modulo bugs)
<genii> cjwatson: OK, thanks
<juliank> cjwatson: my local debimg tree can now read the Germinate output files and use them instead of calculating the dependencies itself.
<emgent> heya
<smallfoot-> Blender runs in fullscreen (even when I tell it to run in window mode) if I use Compiz. Without Compiz, Blender behaves properly though.
<slangasek> smallfoot-: please see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs for information about reporting bugs; reporting them on IRC is not a reliable way to get them seen by the relevant developers
<Caesar> slangasek: so the timeframe for the first Hardy point release is July?
<slangasek> Caesar: yes
<Caesar> tjaalton: can you be more precise? I can't see any xorg source packages in dapper-proposed on archive.ubuntu.com, and there's no obvious links from https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/dapper/+source/xorg-server/+bug/113679
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 113679 in xorg-server "xorg freezes when running openoffice" [High,Fix committed]
<lucent> soren: thanks for the fix to virt-manager w/re OS settings that have no info for vt
<lucent> at the moment I'm not 100% sure, but I think there is a bug or undocumented problem with 8.04 LTS release of virt-manager for the networking aspects
<lucent> I am a member of libvirtd and kvm
<lucent> However, I am not able to configure network settings?
<sistpoty> hey LaserJock... motu meeting going on right now
<LaserJock> oh really?
<sistpoty> yes
<laga> ludo_: you need to connect to the system-wide session i think
<laga> mario_limonciell: i'd like to do an SRU for https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/222009 - is that OK with you or do you want to wait for other issues to come up?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 222009 in mythplugins "package mythvideo 0.21.0+fixes16838-0ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: " [Undecided,New]
<mario_limonciell> laga, no i think that's a good idea to do an SRU, but i don't know that is the proper solution for it
<laga> mario_limonciell: well, what do you suggest? trying to fix permissions if we can and just ignoring it if we can't sounds like a pragmatic idea ;)
<mario_limonciell> laga, well i guess the only alternative that comes to mind is checking whether the file system is mounted on nfs
<laga> which will also result in doing nothing. and that's probably error-prone and requires a lot more shell code
<mario_limonciell> this solution seems like it can be a bad idea in one circumstance that i can think (and the original lines have  this same problem), overriding uid/gid on a remote system that doesn't necessarily have the same uid/gid
<mario_limonciell> so that's why it almost makes more sense to me to check if /var/ /var/lib /var/lib/mythtv or /var/lib/mythtv/videos are on nfs
<mario_limonciell> and if they are do nothing
<laga> is overriding permissions a good idea anyways? there is probably a reason why the user changed them
<laga> mario_limonciell: don't forget about cifs
<mario_limonciell> laga, yeah maybe it's better to only override if the directory ends up getting made
<mario_limonciell> or its a first install
<mario_limonciell> etc
<laga> mario_limonciell: let's assume the user is running NFS. the postinst runs with UID0. shouldn't any UID0 calls be mapped to "nobody" on the server?
<laga> unless the user uses "no_root_squash"
<laga> that'll also explain the failures people are seeing. UID/GID isn't changed
<mario_limonciell> yeah
<mario_limonciell> is there a mkdir -p for that directory i nthe postinst?
<laga> so || true ought to be enough
<mario_limonciell> or is it explicitly made?
<mario_limonciell> or shipped with the package
<laga> i think it's in the package
<mario_limonciell> ah.
<mario_limonciell> well i guess in that case || true should do the trick, but "laga> is overriding permissions a good idea anyways? there is probably a reason why the user changed them"
<kees> slangasek, bdmurray: can you check on bug 222108 ?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 222108 in ubuntu "md5sum check fails on wubi.exe in Hardy" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/222108
<laga> mario_limonciell: now remember all the times users have thought it was a good idea to override the mysql password
 * mario_limonciell shrugs
<mario_limonciell> okay yeah.
<mario_limonciell> this solution is good enough for now then
<mario_limonciell> apply it across the board to the other plugins
<laga> yeah
<slangasek> mario_limonciell, laga: looking at that bug, I'm not sure why NFS has anything to do with this code failing?
<slangasek> kees: duplicate of 222018, oddly
<mario_limonciell> slangasek, there have been several reports of  the exact same thing popping up and it turns out that on NFS you can't chown or chmod the directories
<mario_limonciell> bryce, and kees both ran into it too afaik
<laga> slangasek: .. because root access is mapped to nobody using default NFS export options
<kees> slangasek: ah-ha, thanks.  I have at least one other dup of that, I'll mark it.  thanks.
<slangasek> oh, a concern about root squash, meh
<slangasek> mario_limonciell: well, you can't if you're running with root_squash, correct; but then, er, don't do that :)
<laga> no_root_squash is bad
<slangasek> if all of /var is mounted on NFS, you are generally screwed if it's root_squash
<slangasek> ditto /var/lib
<slangasek> so there's no reason to solve this problem on a per-package basis
<mario_limonciell> well that goes back to the question should permissions really be overridden on a per package basis like that
<laga> slangasek: there are a few very good reasons to have /var/lib/mythvideo mounted via NFS. it contains your video files
<slangasek> mario_limonciell: sure they should
<mario_limonciell> slangasek, well i mean every time the package is upgraded though
<mario_limonciell> the first install sure, but on every upgrade i dont think
<laga> slangasek: and mythbuntu actually allows you to export them, so users might just mount them on another box in /var/lib/mythvideo/
<slangasek> mario_limonciell: /var/lib == package state; if you think you know better than the package what the perms on its own state should be, you need to use dpkg-statoverride
<slangasek> mario_limonciell: which the cited postinst code already checks for
<laga> i meant to say /var/lib/mythtv/videos of course
<laga> (have we reached a consensus yet? ;))
<mario_limonciell> to at least stop the bug traffic on it, i think the || true would be fine
<laga> good.
<slangasek> and if the user did mount it over NFS, it has the wrong perms, and the mythtv user won't be able to access it?
<slangasek> package installs successfully and then fails mysteriously at runtime? :)
<laga> slangasek: an angel gets its wings? ;)
<laga> slangasek: we can't do anything about that. i blame NFS for not having a sane UID remapping mechanism. (dunno about nfsv4)
<slangasek> I'm asking whether you really think it's better for the package to claim to have successfully installed in this case, as opposed to bailing at install time
<laga> nfs-user-server has something usable, but it doesn't do files over 2GB
<laga> slangasek: it's still possible that the user made it work without invoking dpkg-statoverride.
<slangasek> I know mvo disagrees on this point because he has to deal with all the upgrade fallout when packages do it badly :), but I'm a firm believer that packages should *not* be lenient in their maintainer scripts, because it's better to find the cause of failures up front rather than let the package install continue and leave behind an inconsistent system
<laga> slangasek: yeah, you're talking about *installing*, i'm talking about upgrading :) i guess we can safely assume that it worked before the upgrade.
<laga> hum
<slangasek> well, yes, instead of the || true, you could put in a check for [ -z "$2" ]; I wouldn't object as loudly to that
<laga> ah, $2 only shows up when upgrading. i guess it's the version number of the previously installed package
<Caesar> laga: http://women.debian.org/wiki/English/MaintainerScripts
<laga> okay, that makes sense. is there any way to show a nice message to the user if it fails?
<slangasek> using debconf error templates you could
<slangasek> but, er, that's a change that definitely shouldn't pass muster in an SRU without first being uploaded to intrepid (when it opens)
<laga> no, we need the fix now and i don't want to do so much fiddling nowe
<laga> now*
<laga> thanks, you've been a great help
<slangasek> one hopes so, at least :)
<soren> lucent: Sorry for breaking it to begin with :)
<lucent> soren: I have filed a new bug, with a different python error
<lucent> soren: you will have to catch any further info from me soon, because this laptop system is going to be sent in tonight for repairs :)
<lucent> bug #222191
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 222191 in virt-manager "Virtual Machine Manager start-up python error as user belonging to libvirtd group" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/222191
<soren> lucent: No, I see what the problem is there. It's completely unrelated to that fix, though.
<hwilde> why doesn't network manager put auto [iface] into /etc/network/interfaces :(
<lucent> hwilde: network manager supercedes the use of interfaces file to define interfaces, I think
<slangasek> because n-m can't be trusted to write the file correctly ;)
<lucent> as a user, I remember having to disable or remove most of my /etc/network/interfaces file in order for early versions of nm-applet to function appropriately
<hwilde> fair enough, but lots of people asking why their wireless doesn't work automaticall on boot,  they pastebin the interfaces file and it's missing auto eth1 or auto wlan0
<crimsun> they also could simply remove the $wifi_iface stanza altogether from interfaces(5)
<slangasek> that doesn't sound right; n-m isn't supposed to require anything in interfaces to work
<slangasek> so "missing" auto eth1 should have no effect on n-m
<lucent> hwilde: this is a big change from the way people are used to doing it in debian
<lucent> or older versions of wifi access and wpa-supplicant script hacks
<hwilde> hey I wrote one of those supplicant hacks :)  and it works great
<slangasek> there are no uncommented lines in /etc/network/interfaces related to the wifi interface I'm currently using n-m on
<hwilde> but what generates the interfaces file
<lucent> nothing in your case
<lucent> it's not generated... there are other subsystems controlling the networking functions now
<lucent> I'm guessing HAL and/or DBUS
<hwilde> there is an /etc/network/interfaces file
<hwilde> and people don't type it in themselves
<hwilde> so where does it come from
<lucent> ohhh
<hwilde> and why is it missing auto [interface]
<lucent> the network configuration applet in gnome
<lucent> I understand now
<hwilde> which causes it to not come up on boot
<lucent> There is a conflict between the wifi configuration of the Gnome network configuration applet, and network-manager
<lucent> when a person enters the Gnome network configuration applet to configure their wifi device, it writes out the /etc/network/interfaces file
<lucent> this in turn screws up network-manager from working
<lucent> is that still a problem in Hardy?
<slangasek> hwilde: no, see what I wrote above; lack of "auto" has nothing to do with network-manager using the interface or not
<soren> slangasek: Er... Sure it does. n-m needs to know that it's not going to fight with ifupdown about managing an interface. It does so by checking if there's a config stanza and (I believe) an "auto $iface" as well.
<hwilde> i've answered the same question in #ubuntu about a dozen times.  they pastebin the interfaces file and there is no auto.  and they say their wirelss doesn't come up on boot
<hwilde> personally, I do not have these problems, and I do not use the guis, so I cannot say....
<soren> slangasek: (Not sure about the auto part, though)
<slangasek> soren: no, what n-m does is refuse to expose the interface if there's anything *other* than the 'auto' line
<soren> slangasek: Ah.
<slangasek> soren: or rather, an 'auto' line and/or an 'iface $foo inet dhcp' line, IIRC
<soren> slangasek: Ah... Ok, reading what you said again, I see what you mean now.
<lucent> what is "Enable roaming mode", does this toggle the use of /etc/network/interfaces ?
<lucent> from Network settings applet
<slangasek> hwilde: yes, so what *do* they have in their interfaces file?  they probably have /other/ stuff set, which was not set by network-manager and is a hint to network-manager to not manage that interface
<hwilde> they have everything looking good, except the "auto" line
<slangasek> er, no
<soren> slangasek: I thought you were saying that n-m didn't care at all what was in /e/n/i.
<slangasek> what is "looking good"?
<slangasek> soren: it does care, but it doesn't care about adding/removing an 'auto' line.. :)
<hwilde> they have everything else that is required, static ip or dhcp, wireless, whatever, but there is   no    auto
<soren> slangasek: Right.
<hwilde> let me look through the url grabber and see if any pastebins are still available
<lucent> hwilde: this should not be a problem in a fresh install of Hardy
<slangasek> hwilde: those are not things that are required, those are things that directly interfere with network-manager agreeing to manage the interface
<slangasek> hwilde: because network-manager doesn't know how to manage /etc/network/interfaces directly, so if you configure your interface there, n-m will not touch it
<hwilde> telling them to add the auto line fixes it, but what should they be doing, commenting out everything and letting n-m handle it?
<slangasek> adding the auto line causes the interface to be managed with ifupdown
<slangasek> it will not cause the interface to be configurable through network-manager
<slangasek> if you want to use n-m, you have to comment out everything, yes
<hwilde> like I said, I don't personally have this issue
<hwilde> so the problem is they are going into gnome network config, and that writes the interfaces file, so n-m won't touch it, but it's missing the auto line so ifupdown is not up on boot
<hwilde> what a mess :/
<slangasek> seems so
<lucent> soren: w/re the new virt-manager bug I filed, do you need any information from me?  I would like to see if it is related to bug #202432
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 202432 in virt-manager "Unable to use anything but usermode networking" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/202432
<soren> lucent: No, they're completely unrelated. I see what the problem is and I have a patch, but I need some sleep before I do anything useful about it.
<lucent> okay, thank you
<lucent> the user symptom is that we cannot configure networking
<lucent> because qemu:///system does not show in the virt-manager
<hwilde> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ifupdown/+bug/50099  "network has to be started each time system is booted"
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 50099 in ifupdown "network has to be started each time system is booted (dup-of: 44194)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 44194 in wpasupplicant "wpasupplicant doesn't start when the network start" [Medium,Confirmed]
<soren> lucent: Yeah, I know.
<hwilde> in that bug post two people pasted the interfaces file missing the auto line
<lucent> soren: when that bug gets squashed, would I then be able to configure networking?
<lucent> or am I confused
<slangasek> hwilde: right, definitely a bug in whatever wrote the interfaces file then...
<soren> lucent: You can already configure networking if you just follow the guides (start virt-manager as: virt-manager -c qemu:///system).
<soren> lucent: But if you're seeing that bug, you probably can't start virt-manager right now?
<slangasek> hwilde: actually, in that bug I see config snippets that *do* list 'auto'?
<lucent> soren: I can start virt-manager, and I can run and do all things except configure Networking
<soren> lucent: Start it as "virt-manager -c qemu:///system" just once, and qemu:///system will stay there.
<hwilde> slangasek, yeah I think that would be the thing he is talking about n-m won't touch it
 * lucent does this
<lucent> soren: Yes, this is working
<hwilde> slangasek, I have specifically answered a dozen people who added the "auto" line and that fixed their problem... that's about all I know.  I use command line for everything and i've never had the problem myself
<slangasek> hwilde: right, fair enough
<soren> lucent: Yeah. It's on the wiki about this: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KvmVirtManagerEtc
<soren> Anyhow, as I was saying: It's bed time. :)
<lucent> good night and thank you again
<slangasek> I would love to know why avahi-autoip thinks it's clever to set a default route
<hwilde> slangasek, I actually go as far as uninstalling n-m :)  so I don't have this interfernece
<lucent> I read that guide and somehow missed the need to run a terminal command
<slangasek> hwilde: I normally don't use n-m and prefer to have it uninstalled; I've been using it for the past two months in the run-up to the hardy release because there were a number of major wireless bugs that needed attention
<hwilde> lol good excuse
<hwilde> it doesn't like my wpa so I just run the supplicant from rc.local
 * hwilde ducks
<slangasek> hwilde: it's actually doing much better now than it did in the past; if someone would just fix the bug whereby n-m doesn't bother connecting to anything until after I log in, preventing me from using kerberos authentication correctly, we'd be all set
<slangasek> hwilde: ah, there were a number of wpa-related bugs fixed in the past months, in fact
<laga> n-m doesn't always set an IP address when connecting to my wlan :/
<hwilde> it works for awhile, then it jsut stops... Ican't have that
<hwilde> it also latches on to free public wifi whenever it has the chance and I can't have that either
<hwilde> even with a strict .conf file, it roams to open networks :/
#ubuntu-devel 2008-04-26
<slangasek> heh
<hwilde> so is anybody looking at usb device reassignment for intrepid ?  everytime I reboot the ttyUSBs are all random
<hwilde> I have to run a script in rc.local to try and sort them out and create symlinks
<slangasek> not that I'm aware of
<hwilde> yeah I can't find any bug posts or anything even related
<slangasek> in general, device names are not guaranteed to be persistent across reboots unless you use udev rules to link them
<slangasek> I don't know about USB ttys though, I've never even had one of those let alone two
<hwilde> right, but udev doesn't seem to know the diff
<hwilde> slangasek, you know udev ?
<hwilde> slangasek, if you can make udev rules that figure out these usbs you would be my hero  http://pastebin.com/m5ac22ce0
<slangasek> I only know udev on a cargo-cult basis
<hwilde> where can I find the udev devs :)
<slangasek> well, the Ubuntu udev maintainer just timed out of the channel... :)
<hwilde> doh!
<hwilde> hey probably read my pastebin and locked up
<lucent> slangasek: ah, is there no udev/DBUS/HAL script to use to kick network-manager into gear before you login?
<slangasek> lucent: the only keystore network-manager currently supports is gnome-keyring
<slangasek> which makes logging in to password-protected networks ... problematic
<lucent> oh gosh.
<lucent> gnome isn't even there yet, so uh, I see now.
<lucent> it would require some kind of "IMEH CHARGIN MY LAZERZ" followed by udev/DBUS/HAL hack
<lucent> that's not a typical use case for a desktop system, is it?
<slangasek> are you defining "desktop" as "running GNOME", or as "not a laptop"?
<slangasek> because roaming Kerberos authentication is totally a valid use case
<hwilde> the problem with udev is that it only sees the USB_BUS and USB_DEV and those swap every reboot... udevinfo does not have enough specific info to define custom rules   http://pastebin.com/m5ac22ce0
<lucent> I'm defining wifi on boot as the use case
<lucent> how common is that anyways?
<hwilde> wifi on boot pre-login
<slangasek> lucent: not as common as it ought to be, but it's *my* chosen configuration. :)
<slangasek> Kerberos is pretty important at the enterprise level, both in the context of AD and for more traditional Kerberos setups
<lucent> there's no sensible default for this IMO
<slangasek> sure there is: have a keystore that doesn't have a password, that root is allowed to read
<lucent> unless you're going to hack GDM to have a wifi selector
<slangasek> they're friggin' wep keys, not state secrets
<slangasek> (unless you work for the goverment, then, ok, maybe the wep keys are state secrets)
<lucent> it's not just the keystore though that is a problem
<lucent> it's the usability
<hwilde> you could have two step login,  first local to start the network support, then over AD or whatever
<lucent> what if you have a wep + VPN that you log into before getting network access to the domain?
<slangasek> <shrug>  I don't consider "which network should we connect to?" to be a per-user setting
<slangasek> so I don't think it should use per-user password stores
<slangasek> hwilde: this is contrary to the goal of Single Sign-On
<lucent> it's per-user because of the use of keystores
<hwilde> but hten how does admin login to the secure network when you break your enterprise login :)
<slangasek> hwilde: I *can* do that, but it's bloody annoying
<hwilde> slangasek, consider me the devil's advocate then until I have consistent usb devices :)
<slangasek> heh
<lucent> slangasek: IMO the course of action is a new package which includes a boot-time configuration interface for networking
<slangasek> I don't want to have to interact at all with the system in order to get it to come up on the network either, if that's what you mean
<lucent> specifically "extra weird" networking like wifi on boot, or vpn tunnels
<slangasek> system password store + n-m --> bring the network up without me having to touch it
<slangasek> n-m actually already does this for interfaces that don't require passwords
<slangasek> but if it's a password-encrypted network, you have to log in and run the applet to get anywhere
<lucent> secured network access on boot without user input?  That's not security!
<slangasek> iz broken
<slangasek> er
<hwilde> might as well autologin at that point
<slangasek> sure it is
<slangasek> um no
<lucent> seriously, hwilde
<lucent> let's think this through here
<lucent> how do we provide secured network access on boot, before gdm
<lucent> so that gdm can login to resources on a secured network
<hwilde> if this is restricted to enterprise networks, there should only be one network to connect to.
<slangasek> hwilde: ahem, you already admitted above that you do the same thing on your system, only without the use of n-m
<slangasek> there's no reason it would be restricted to enterprise networks
<hwilde> my system is an autonomous robot so yeah it starts up automagically.
<slangasek> it's restricted to machines that are part of an enterprise *environment*, which may include both enterprise wifi and public roaming
<hwilde> slangasek, but there is only *one* network in that enterprise environment that you need pre-login connectivity aka where is the active directory
<slangasek> i.e., if I have a company-issued laptop, I want to get Kerberos authentication at the gdm screen, whenever I'm connected to a network
<slangasek> hwilde: no, why would you assume I would only use Kerberos when I'm directly connected to the network? :)
<hwilde> I dunno, I guess I am missing why everyone objects to the method you have worked out
<slangasek> it's my single sign-on, and I use it for everything from verifying my own password (company laptop, remember), to accessing fileshares (when I'm in range), to authenticating my email client
<hwilde> if you can't login, you can't have access to the network,   so why not startup networking before login?
<slangasek> hmm?  I don't claim that everyone objects to that
<slangasek> it just doesn't work currently with n-m
<hwilde> ohhhh
<slangasek> because no one's implemented a system-level password store, because GNOME people think about these things upside-down. :)
<lucent> I'm asking how do we provide secure network layer access before gdm so we can login
<hwilde> typically they respond to popular demand
<hwilde> but that is an important piece to taking market share away from windows in enterprise environments
<lucent> maybe a power-on password?
<lucent> USB thumbdrive as a key?
<slangasek> lucent: if you really have a network that only a subset of your users are allowed to connect to, fine -- don't put that key in the system password store? :)
<hwilde> what if you use an encrypted rsa/dsa key to authenticate to the network at first, then you can to kerberos login?
<slangasek> and then it would work the same way that it works today
<lucent> handing out physical layer access to your corporate network is not very bright
<lucent> there should be a way to add a hook for VPN access too
<slangasek> handing out physical access to your corporate laptop is probably not very bright either then ;)
<lucent> shit gets stolen.  I mean, things happen
<hwilde> encrypted partition
<lucent> Okay, encrypted partition, good.  Now you need a password at boot to access your system?
<hwilde> no the encrypted partition has the network key that gets online pre-login
<slangasek> in that case, yes
<hwilde> then the user can authenticate with AD or kerberos or whatever
<lucent> in this scenario, having a package which implements a boot-time selectable network pre-config makes sense
<lucent> without a key
<lucent> instead you still need a means to be able to take user input though
<lucent> like the VPN passphrase
<lucent> unless you're storing VPN passphrases (not possible with OTP and not likley to be permitted by corporate)
<lucent> the problem remains that you need user interaction to get network connectivity before you log in
<slangasek> having to VPN in before you log in == doesn't work with Windows AD member machines either
<lucent> slangasek: I am not familiar with Windows AD, what is this?
<slangasek> AD == Active Directory?
<hwilde> consider yourself lucky...
<lucent> oh okay
<hwilde> gtg,  if you see Keybuk or any udevs ask them if mine is a lost cause:    http://pastebin.com/m750bddea
<slangasek> well, hmm, I don't /think/ you can start a VPN connection from Windows before logging in, but maybe you can run the VPN client as a system service too
<lucent> The only big corp I worked for that had any level of secure login was Google, Inc.
<lucent> so... not a lot of Microsoft anything
<lucent> VPN pre-login would be a cool enhancement
<slangasek> right, I won't ask you about what kind of VPNing they do, there are other people on the channel I can bug about that who probably have a better chance of being able to legitimately tell me :)
<slangasek> but Kerberos is certainly a class of technology that's in Google's ballpark
<lucent> I was a datacenter Monkey, I can't tell you any more than this :)
 * toresbe thinks he's found what should've been filed as an RC bug...
<toresbe> apt-get upgrade to hardy breaks on python-irclib
<lucent> uh...
<lucent> aren't we supposed to use the upgrade-manager?
<toresbe> sorry. "upgrade-manager" breaks on python-irclib. :)
<toresbe> as do subsequent invocations of dpkg --configure -a.
<sistpoty> toresbe: any details? (e.g. output of "upgrade-manager" *g*)=
<wgrant> toresbe: Let me guess... python-central complains about files being in the directory that aren't owned by it?"
<toresbe> wgrant: won't remove local files, something to that effect
<wgrant> It's like the python-opengl one I found; it needs C/R on python2.[34]-irclib
<sistpoty> hey wgrant... where's fujitsu? *g*
<wgrant> Right, that's right.
<wgrant> sistpoty: Back in Hardy.
<sistpoty> heh
<wgrant> toresbe: Please file a bug, and I'll get it SRUed shortly.
<toresbe> I'm in console mode trying to prepare for a reboot (my grub setup is kinda' awkward and roundabout)
<jdong> whoopsies
<jdong> note to self:
<toresbe> wgrant: I don't know what an SRU is, but I'll do my best.
<toresbe> :)
<wgrant> toresbe: Stable Release Update.
<jdong> do *NOT* make a loopback device on a LV and then use it to extend the LV itself
<toresbe> wgrant: cool
<toresbe> jdong: haha
<wgrant> toresbe: For now, it's fairly easily recoverable.
<jdong> well that was my attempt at perpetual motion.
<toresbe> wgrant: I just removed the package, worked a treat ;)
<wgrant> toresbe: apt-get remove python2.4-irclib
 * lucent rolls through a Microsoft Windows XP install in kvm
<wgrant> python-central is so unbelievably fragile.
<lucent> this is so difficult, versus Hardy install
<wgrant> toresbe: Great.
<toresbe> heh. :)
<toresbe> anyway, the rest of it is working great. Thanks, everyone in here, for another neato release.
<wgrant> python-central-related upgrade failures should be top priority, as they can bring down an entire upgrade very easily.
<lucent> Hardy installer is missing a feature that is in Windows XP installer:   It's not telling me that I'm an idiot.
<lucent> :P
<toresbe> haha
<wgrant> lucent: Heh. Indeed.
<toresbe> I'm thoroughly bummed about the Heron T-shirt being limited-edition. It's so good-looking I'd like one for myself.
<wgrant> toresbe: They had Gutsy ones until very near Hardy's release.
<wgrant> toresbe: I'm sure you can get one.
<lucent> oh, I agree toresbe, that design is ill (really good)
<toresbe> lucent: straight up, yo.
<lucent> I was looking and thinking, if I had money right now, I would buy a T and wear it to burning man
<lucent> I don't know, does it have "Ubuntu" words on it? I don't want the words if I'm wearing something there
<lucent> the design is really cool and I like that
 * toresbe wonders if he has met lucent at debconf, which would explain why he felt the need to explain "ill" to him.
<toresbe> :)
<lucent> har, no *nix gatherings since a long time now
<wgrant> toresbe: Wait, are you upgrading from Dapper?
<lucent> I watch those things from a safe, moderate-intelligence required, distance.  They're really full of people who are overwhelmingly intelligent.
<toresbe> lucent: Hey, I'm an idiot, I have a great time there.
<toresbe> lucent: I do lots of stuff that require no computer skills. Last debconf, I fixed a church organ with duct tape.
 * jdong moans about the word idiot's high standards these days
<toresbe> wgrant: no, Gutsy.
<wgrant> Hmm, that's not what I thought it was, then.
<lucent> toresbe: groovy!   I'm into tinkering with other people's code and engineering work, never my own
<wgrant> toresbe: Did it mention any file in particular?
<toresbe> wgrant: nope... sorry, I probably should've made allowance for letting some devs poke around before I removed the package.
<wgrant> toresbe: I should be able to reproduce it here.
<toresbe> wgrant: cool.
 * toresbe reboots, takes opportunity to stuff in a video capture card he's been wanting to try
<toresbe> up 11 days, pfah
<wgrant> toresbe: Did you have python2.4-irclib installed?
<toresbe> toresbe@fortran:~$ dpkg-query -f '${Status},${Package}\n' -W *irclib*
<toresbe> purge ok not-installed,python-irclib
<toresbe> install ok installed,python2.4-irclib
<toresbe> wgrant: see above :)
<wgrant> That's impressive.
<wgrant> That should have been removed when you upgraded from Dapper.
<wgrant> So it is the bug I thought.
<toresbe> hah
<toresbe> That bug is *so* three releases ago? :)
<toresbe> Ugh! Sad to see that gnome-terminal hasn't gotten any less useless on this machine. Maybe it's a config file issue or something, but irssi screen redraws take several 1/10ths of a second.
<toresbe> nearly a whole second
 * toresbe goes back to uxterm
<toresbe> Oh, and another cute one...
<wgrant> toresbe: I use gnome-terminal fine with screen here.
<toresbe> it works well on my work Hardy machine with the same nVidia driver... probably just a weird issue.
<toresbe> http://gunkies.org/stuff/hardy-ohdearme.png :)
<wgrant> ...
<wgrant> Nice.
<wgrant> The /Music isn't just wrapped off the first one, is it?
<toresbe> Good question. I'll kill gnome and try again
<toresbe> Hrm. Could well be, but resizing is not possible. :)
<toresbe> So most probably it's doing some kind of automated sizing which may or may not be to blame
<toresbe> Actually, a quick question which might be construed as a user support question: Anyone here have any experiences with, and/or advice for a video4linux previewing application?
<toresbe> I used to use tvtime, but this is just an svideo grabber.
<LaserJock> wgrant: oh no, what happened to your nick?!
<LaserJock> say it ain't so ;-)
<wgrant> LaserJock: It got left in Hardy.
<LaserJock> I thought maybe Colin and Tollef had pulled you to the dark side
<wgrant> Not as far as I'm aware.
<jdong> you'er not supposed to be aware
<jdong> like that pill thingie they use in night clubs
<wgrant> Hahah.
<slangasek> pill... thingie?
<slangasek> nevermind, I didn't ask
<sladen> *babies*
<sistpoty> alcohol works as countermeasure, I've heard from s.o. :P
<MattJ> Don't know if this is the right place to ask, but are there plans to have the .25 kernel in the repositories at some point?
<wgrant> MattJ: For Intrepid, yes.
<wgrant> For Hardy, no.
<MattJ> Not even in backports?
<lamont> wgrant: except that I expect it'll be .26 or later for intrepid...
<wgrant> lamont: But it's 2.6.25 now.
<lamont> sure
<wgrant> MattJ: Backporting kernels is truly evil.l
<MattJ> ^^
<MattJ> iwlwifi is not working for me, and I need it to
<wgrant> Getting 2.6.25 is not the soluition to that.
<wgrant> Filing a bug and getting it fixed is.
<MattJ> I found someone with a similar/same problem on lkml, they say it is fixed in .25
<lamont> wgrand++
<MattJ> Since the issue is not a security issue, is it likely to be fixed in Hardy?
<wgrant> lamont: Pfft, I thought it would be easier to type than Fujitsu.
<wgrant> MattJ: Very probably for 8.04.1
 * MattJ files bug
<wgrant> A lot of kernel regressions are scheduled for fixing then.
<MattJ> :)
<wgrant> 8.04.1 should happen in very early July.
<pwnguin> MattJ: the proper technique there is to bisect the kernel
<MattJ> and any idea of the short term solution for me? Gutsy (with ipw3945) worked ok
<wgrant> MattJ: File a bug and see what the kernel devs say.
<MattJ> k, will do so now
<wgrant> Perhaps use the Gutsy kernel for now.
<MattJ> I used to use the Gutsy kernel on Feisty, how funny :)
<wgrant> MattJ: Is there anything special about your config? I've used Hardy's kernel on several ipw3945 boxes recently, and it seems to work.
<MattJ> ipw was the old (pre-Hardy) driver, Hardy uses the newer iwlwifi (from the kernel)
<MattJ> Nothing special, this is a fresh install
<MattJ> A lot of people have had problems even detecting networks, but using the hardy backports modules seems to help those
<MattJ> My problem is that it won't set up an ad-hoc network
<MattJ> which I use every day
<MattJ> The hardest part of filing a bug is knowing which package to file under
<wgrant> MattJ: linux, probably.
<MattJ> That warns me about filing a bug for upstream linux, etc.
<wgrant> MattJ: The linux package. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+filebug
<MattJ> Ah, thanks :)
<sladen> MattJ: I filed this as high about 6weeks before release
<sladen> MattJ: but the more dups the better
<MattJ> sladen: Oh, where?
<MattJ> I couldn't find any with my specific problem
<sladen> MattJ: file _your_ bug
<sladen> if it's a dup, it'll get duped, but at least there will be an independent report in your words
<MattJ> How do duplicates help? :)
<MattJ> If you insist
<dsas> MattJ: It helps persuade someone that the problem is important
<MattJ> If it were my bug tracker I would be annoyed at someone knowingly filing a duplicate :)
<sladen> some people do
<sladen> for me (personally), a good indicator of the relative size of a problem are the number of dups
<sladen> and with them you get separate individual reports (multiple angles onto a problem) and not just misleadings "me toos" are actually turn out to be something else and need weeding out
<sladen> MattJ: [after you've filed yours], start at  bug
<sladen> MattJ: [after you've filed yours], start at  bug #205390 and recursively follow the dups
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 205390 in ubuntu "8.04 beta; wireless broken after upgrade (ipw3945/iwl3945/ifrename/udev) (dup-of: 183968)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/205390
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 183968 in udev "mac80211 "master" interface matches existant persistent network rules" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/183968
<MattJ> sladen: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/222302
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 222302 in linux "iwl3945 can't set parameters for ad-hoc network" [Undecided,New]
<MattJ> I don't have the wlan0_rename issue other people have
<MattJ> I'll investigate installing the Gutsy kernel tomorrow
<MattJ> Thanks for the help :)
<hdevalence> has anyone ever heard of an idea where you would use a torrent to download debs for version upgrades instead of having everybody upgrade veeerrrryyy slowly when a new version is released?
<hdevalence> because torrents of course scale opposite to http/ftp downloads, so if you did that upgrading would go much faster
<mgolisch> ?
<mgolisch> how would that be faster?
<mgolisch> i mean you would need a dedicated torrent for each file
<mgolisch> that would unmanageable
<hdevalence> mgolisch: no
<hdevalence> no, you don't
<mgolisch> how else?
<hdevalence> you can make a torrent of all the deb files and then only download the ones you want
<mgolisch> if it where just one you would have to wait for the whole thing to complete
<mgolisch> or did i get something wrong?
<mgolisch> i mean you cant control in what order the chunks are downloaded
<hdevalence> then how is it in KTorrent I can proitize files and choosenot to download them?
<hdevalence> ick
<hdevalence> prioritize files and choose not to
<mgolisch> hm no idea maybe iam wrong
<hdevalence> basically I'd be interested to know if it's been done, because it's something I think would be interesting to work on but I don't want to put in lots of effort if it's already made
<awalton__> hdevalence, it's been done, but never very successfully. a new implementation would be nice.
<awalton__> hdevalence, apt-torrent: http://sianka.free.fr/
<hdevalence> i was thinking it would be neat to try getting it to use the alternate install cd torrent
<hdevalence> but I don't know if that's the best way
<hdevalence> anyways, I need to sleep
<nixternal> or you can use Conary and download only the files that have changed :)
<LaserJock> anybody around running Hardy and have gnumeric installed?
<beuno> LaserJock, I can probably install it.  What seems to be the problem?
<LaserJock> pi doesn't worh
<LaserJock> *work
<LaserJock> bug #222062
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 222062 in gnumeric "functions don't work in formulas" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/222062
<beuno> LaserJock, installing. Might take a minute or two while the repos try not to die with all the hammering they're getting these days
<beuno> LaserJock, what are you doing exactly?   =PI() in a cell?
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> I just used PI
<beuno> just type in PI?
<LaserJock> ah, PI() does work
<beuno> it doesn't for me  :)
<beuno> oh
<beuno> yes it dows
<beuno> er, does
<beuno> I went for pi() because I saw the word function somewhere   :p
<LaserJock> well, pi isn't a function
<LaserJock> it's a constant
<LaserJock> but ... hmm
<beuno> right, I wouldn't of tried that if the bug didn't mention "functions"
<beuno> LaserJock, http://www.gnome.org/projects/gnumeric/doc/gnumeric-PI.shtml
<LaserJock> well, we need to figure out if it's a change in behavior
<beuno> LaserJock, http://www.mailarchives.org/list/gnumeric-list/msg/2005/00002
<beuno> tehre are emails from 2005
<beuno> of users using pi()
<beuno> (yes, my typing sucks today)
<LaserJock> hmm
<LaserJock> so what went wrong for the bug reporter I wonder
<LaserJock> beuno: thanks for the help, I've followed up on the report
<beuno> LaserJock, np
<beuno> sometimes it just takes someone totally unaware of everything to look at it differently  :)
<beuno> I force random people at the office to look at code when I'm stuck
<beuno> and it usually is something terribly obvious
<edugonch_> Hello, why I get compiler errors in this statement ----> this->_txt_Password->signal_insert_at_cursor().connect(
<edugonch_>         sigc::mem_fun(*this, &LoginForm::onInsert_txt_Password));
<DaBonBon> someone told me that snd-hda-intel was kind of disabled in hardy, to convenience the other sound card drivers. is that true?
<DaBonBon> specifically,  --with-cards=hda-intel was not put during alsa configuration
<infinity> DaBonBon: Can't imagine how that's possibly true, given than my hda_intel stuff is working great.
<wgrant> Mine's working better than ever as well.
<DaBonBon> strange, because my card is working really pathetic
<wgrant> DaBonBon: Can you please be more descriptive?
<DaBonBon> wgrant: yes, first of all, sound sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't. headphone automute doesn't work. i get too many channels in alsamixer
<DaBonBon> all this used to happen pre 1.0.15 release of alsa, but after installing ubuntu-backport-modules in gutsy, which had alsa 1.0.15, all the problems were solved
<wgrant> DaBonBon: Well, there are so many types of HDA cards that it's not surprising.
<DaBonBon> now again, in hardy, i get those problems
<wgrant> Please file a bug.
<DaBonBon> wgrant: no, this card if fully supported
<wgrant> Apparently not.
<DaBonBon> wgrant: well, someone told me that snd-hda-intel has been deliberately disabled to facilitate other sound cards
<DaBonBon> wgrant: yes, because it works perfectly on alsa 1.0.15, atleast in gutsy and other distros
<wgrant> That sounds very odd, as Intel HDA is one of the most common types these days...
<DaBonBon> exactly!
<wgrant> And how on earth would disabling something facilitate support for other card?
 * laga hands out tinfoil hats
<DaBonBon> i guess i'll file a bug
<DaBonBon> wgrant: here is a part of the logs --
<DaBonBon> http://rafb.net/p/LQQ7ff80.html
<DaBonBon> i don't know till how much extent is it true
<wgrant> Ah.
<wgrant> Well, file a bug, anyway.
<DaBonBon> wgrant: what package should i file it against?
<wgrant> DaBonBon: I think it's in linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.24, but possibly linux.
<DaBonBon> ok, i must leave.. thanks for the help, wgrant ..
<Trewas> is hardy-proposed supposed to be completely empty (I am looking at bug 208666 and fixed audacious)?
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 208666 in xmms-crossfade "audacious crashed with SIGSEGV in g_type_check_instance_cast()" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/208666
<jeromeg> Trewas: why would it be supposed to be empty ?
<Trewas> well, it seems to be empty :)
<jeromeg> Trewas: what mirror are you using ?
<Trewas> I was lookign at http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/hardy-proposed/
<jeromeg> Trewas: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xmms-crossfade/0.3.14-1build1
<jeromeg> it has been built only a few ours ago
<jeromeg> it should be available soon in the archive
<Trewas> ok, I noticed that the last message in that bug was only a few hours old so I wouldn't have been surprised if audacious was not yet there, but as hardy-proposed is completely empty I wondered if some switch had not yet been flipped or something
<jeromeg> Trewas: maybe it's because hardy was released two days ago ;)
<jeromeg> hardy-proposed is to handle SRU
<Trewas> well yes, but the bug mentions that people should test the new package from hardy-proposed :)
<jeromeg> yes, yes
<jeromeg> it will be available soon
<jeromeg> or it should at least ;)
<Trewas> hehe, I'll wait and see
<beniamino> is there *any* documentation on update-manager? /usr/share/doc contains only a one-line readme on update-manager-core
<emgent> heya
<twi_> what happened to binary-ppc on the mirrors?
<geser> wasn't ppc moved to ports.ubuntu.com?
<twi_> ah
<crimsun> asac: a lot of people seem to be clamoring for simply enabling nspluginwrapper for i386.  What are your thoughts on doing that for 192888 instead of adjusting pulseaudio?
<crimsun> asac: (for hardy-proposed)
<ion_> ubotu: A link to bug #192888 for the lazy bastards among us, thank you.
<ion_> Okay then.
<Amaranth> bug 192888
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 192888 in pulseaudio "firefox crashes on flash contents when using libflashsupport" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192888
<Amaranth> I would love to get nspluginwrapper on i386, flash screws up all the time even without pulseaudio
<ogra> not for me ... with the first proposed fix to drop hal
<ion_> amaranth: <metoo/>
<ogra> (pulse-hal stuff indeed)
<johanbr> Is https://launchpad.net/bugs/211205 marked private or something? The error message I get is not very informative.
<stgraber> johanbr: this bug contains a backtrace so only QA members can read it
<johanbr> Apparently it is marked private. At least the bot just told me so.
<johanbr> stgraber: Maybe it'd be a good idea for launchpad to actually say that.
<johanbr> And should private bugs really be referenced in a public changelog?
<tuxice> features in intrepid?
<tuxice> !intrepid
<ubotu> Intrepid Ibex is the code name for Ubuntu 8.10, due October 2008 - For more info, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidIbex
<ion_> It supports keyboards.
<tuxice> huh?
<ScottK> johanbr: It's not private any more.
<johanbr> ScottK: thanks
<ScottK> You're welcome.
<kennethr> when I click on the clock in gnome-panel, gnome-panel freezes.  How do I debug?
<kennethr> How do I troubleshoot a hanging gnome-panel on ubuntu?
<johanbr> kennethr: Change the session property for the panel from respawn to normal, then kill the panel and start it under gdb or something.
<kennethr> johanbr: thanks, I'll start there.
<kennethr> johanbr: how do I make use of the gnome-panel-dbg package?  Is it usefull in this case?
<johanbr> Yes. You should have that installed to get a proper backtrace.
<johanbr> kennethr: And probably also libgtk2.0-0-dbg and  libglib2.0-0-dbg at least.
<kennethr> johanbr: when I get into gdb and say run, then I reproduce the hang, how do I get back to the gdb prompt to get a backtrace?
<johanbr> Try just ctrl-c.
<kennethr> perfect...thanks
<scorcher7> Hi, I just uploaded a patch to launchpad that fixes launchpad bug #173772 in atomix. I have never written a patch before and the wiki says to find a dev. to review the patch for inclusion.
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 173772 in atomix "about dialog won't close" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/173772
<scorcher7> Is that something one of you can help me with?
<hunger> scorcher7: You have come to the right place, but I guess most devs are out for the weekend.
<scorcher7> hunger: Should, I just come back on Monday and ask the same question?
<hunger> scorcher7: You might get lucky and somebody might come around, but your chances are way better during the week.
<scorcher7> hunger: Thanks for the tip.
<hunger> scorcher7: You are welcome.
<gustavold> hi, I dont know if it is offtopic... I've upgraded from gutsy to hardy... now every time I push a button in the numpad the X crashes
<Ng> mdke: does the doc team want to know about mistakes in gnome documentation, or should I go and hassle the gnome folks? :)
<dsas> Ng: Hassling the gnome folks is appreciated. You can always file a bug on the gnome documentation packages and it *may* get fixed here. (at least I think that happened in at least one release)
<Ng> dsas: okidoki
<dsas> perhaps gutsy we did a little, temporary fork
 * Ng wonders how keen they will be to update docs for a point release
<ffm_> What's the proper way to make a spec?
<ffm_> Should I just add a page on the wiki, or should I start a forum thread about it?
* ffm_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 8.04 LTS released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy, #ubuntu+1 for intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<LaserJock> ffm_: a wiki page is good
<ffm_> LaserJock, Care to look at the one I've made? FontInstallSpec. (I'm not probably able to implement it, I only know Python ATM)
<Nafallo> hmm
<Nafallo> #ubuntu have support for hardy surely?
<Nafallo> but maybe not edgy.
<ffm_> Nafallo, What?
<LaserJock> Nafallo: yeah, that should be updated
<Nafallo> yay! edgy is EOL today :-)
<Kim^J> Nafallo: Yo!
<dmsuperman> What kind of libraries/examples exist that I could use to learn to write a keylogger/keystroke sender app in either C#, PHP, or (preferably not) C++
<Kim^J> dmsuperman: The question is, why?
<Kim^J> And I think you need to use some Xlib.
<dmsuperman> Have you ever used AutoHotKey in windows?
<Kim^J> dmsuperman: Yes.
<dmsuperman> I basically want to emulate that, at least the text expansion portion
<dmsuperman> there aren't any good existing solutions
<dmsuperman> at least that I could find after much googling
<Kim^J> dmsuperman: Check out xbindkeys source code and check what they use.
<Kim^J> I think you WILL need to learn some C/C++ and use that.
<mdke> Ng: it's probably helpful to file a bug on the ubuntu gnome-user-docs package too though, so that we can fix it in ubuntu then pass the fix upstream
<dmsuperman> Alright. I learned the basic syntax of C++ quite a while ago, and I know C# now, so it shouldn't be too much of a leap I hope
<Kim^J> Heh...
<Kim^J> How much in C# do you know? (The more, the worse.)
<dmsuperman> Not much
<dmsuperman> I'm mainly a PHP guy, but I'm taking a few classes in C#
<Kim^J> Good, smaller leap then.
<dmsuperman> but over the years I've dabbled in various compiled languages, so i'm no stranger
<dmsuperman> yeah
<Kim^J> Well, get to work then. :)
<dmsuperman> I take it C++ is the common denominator language in linux programming?
<Kim^J> dmsuperman: Naaah, C is.
<dmsuperman> ah
<LaserJock> C/C++
<Chipzz> dmsuperman: errr, xlib programming is mostly C programming
<Kim^J> LaserJock: Well, moslty C.
<Chipzz> not much C++ involved
<Chipzz> if any at all
<LaserJock> Kim^J: there's an awful lot of C++ out there
<highvoltage> python must count for something too? or are you excluding interpreted languages?
<LaserJock> and it's very similar to C
<dmsuperman> I'd love to do it in PHP but I doubt it's very possible
<Kim^J> LaserJock: I know, I code C/C++ every day. :)
<Kim^J> highvoltage: For the thing he's doing, Python might not be the right choice. :)
<LaserJock> so I usually put them together in any case
<LaserJock> Kim^J: why not?
<LaserJock> there are a lot of python libraries
<Kim^J> Well, it looks like there's a xlib for Python.
<LaserJock> python would be more likely than PHP or C# anyway :-)
<dmsuperman> I don't know python though :(
<dmsuperman> is it difficult to pick up coming from something like PHP?
<LaserJock> it's not hard to pick up
<Kim^J> dmsuperman: Good for you! (I think so, yes.)
<dmsuperman> Kim^J, You say good because I _don't_ know it?
<LaserJock> python is probably about the easiest programming language to learn, as a gross generalization
<Kim^J> dmsuperman: Yes, because the less people know Python, the less programs get programmed in Python. Which I think is great.
<ffm> Wait, is this a VHLL/HLL flamewar?
 * ffm wants in.
<dmsuperman> no
<dmsuperman> wait
<dmsuperman> stop
<Kim^J> VHLL/HLL?
<dmsuperman> I'm gonna learn python now haha
<ffm> Kim^J, Very High Level Language (Python) vs High Level Language (C)
<Kim^J> Very-High-Level-Language/High-Level-Language?
<Kim^J> ffm: Ah.. :)
<ion_> Python, ew. :-) </flame>
<dmsuperman> psh
<dmsuperman> I compile my code on paper
<Kim^J> Naah, it's just that me and Python doesn't get along, I miss alot of things from C++, things doesn't behave the way I want it to, etc.
<ffm> How hard is it to add functionality to a C gui app using python?
<ffm> I know very little C, but have been meaning to learn it so I can contribute more to Ubuntu..
<Kim^J> I don't what to contribute too.
<ion_> jdong: Your hostname is shouting at me. :-)
<highvoltage> how rude.
<ffm> Kim^J, Well, you can implement my new spec...
<LaserJock> ion_: he's an elitist MITer apparently ;-)
<ffm> ;)
<Chipzz> python indeed is very easy to learn - but make sure that you use consistent indentation settings across editors of you use more than one
<Kim^J> ffm: Where?
<dmsuperman> holy crap, my alternate install cd iso just peaked at 28mbps. I have advertised 15mbps connection 8-)
<ffm> Kim^J, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FontInstallSpec . It's very new (not even in launchpad)
<Kim^J> Chipzz: There's only one editor! (But I won't tell since it's going to start a flamewar.)
<Chipzz> Kim^J: no need to do so - we all know it's vim ;)
<highvoltage> *nod*
 * Chipzz ducks and runs away :)P
<LaserJock> emacs forever!!
<jdong> ion_: lol  I'm sorry to hear that ;-)
<dmsuperman> Eclipse ftw
<LaserJock> oh wait, I'm in vim
<Kim^J> Chipzz: Yep
 * dmsuperman runs
<Kim^J> ffm: Well, I don't know to much about fonts and stuff, where can I look for more info? (You simply want to move the file right?=
<Kim^J> r)
<highvoltage> gooooogle
<ffm> Kim^J, Basically, I'd like to add a button that says "Add Font" to gnome-appearance-properties, opens up a file picker dialog, and copys the file to ~/.fonts (or the system-wide equivalent)
<Kim^J> ffm: Ok ok, well, I could do that, but I'm thinking of a download the ttf, double click it and it asks you to add that font...
<Kim^J> Well, could do both. :)
<ffm> Kim^J, Yeah.
<LaserJock> wouldn't that kind of project be more appropriate in Gnome itself?
<Kim^J> LaserJock: Well, maybe, we can create it for Ubuntu, give it to Gnome.
<Kim^J> That is: Ubuntu --> Gnome is possible, it mustn't be Gnome --> Ubuntu all the time. .)
<mjg59> Kim^J: Projects tend to be happier if you work with them, rather than just presenting them with a finished product
<Kim^J> Ok...
<LaserJock> well, I don't want to make a big deal about it, but a consistent critique of Ubuntu is that it does stuff and then they never end up going upstream
<Kim^J> Tell that to ffm, not to me. :)
<Chipzz> LaserJock: that works the other way around to imo
<Chipzz> ie, upstream not looking at what has been done in ubuntu
<Chipzz> PackageKit for example
<LaserJock> well, yes, there is that kind of thing
<LaserJock> but in general upstreams are supposed to be upstream
<Chipzz> I wonder if hughise even bothered to look at what's been done in ubuntu
<ffm> Kim^J, As I said, I can't implement it, I can just draft. Want to work on it here, or upstream?
<Kim^J> ffm: I can work on it here.
<ffm> LaserJock, The whole point of FOSS is that we can make changes, and the decentralized bit helps.
<Kim^J> Just need to clear out some details on Nautilus and fonts. :)
<ffm> Kim^J, Thanks.
<LaserJock> ffm: well, I don't want to debate the whole point of FOSS too much, but I rather think its that we are free to join with upstream, not fork everything
<ffm> LaserJock, We arn't forking, exactly...
<LaserJock> ffm: you may get a lot more help upstream
<ffm> LaserJock, If we make a successful feature, we can tell upstream about it. Plus, I like launchpad.
<ffm> LaserJock, Ok, then what type of specs should be made in ubunu?
<LaserJock> ffm: well, I'm not saying you can't
<Kim^J> LaserJock: What's the point of arguing this? We ARE going to tell Gnome about it.
<LaserJock> but in general, packaging and integration changes
<LaserJock> things that are Ubuntu-specific
<LaserJock> it's not telling Gnome about it
<LaserJock> it's about working with Gnome on it
<Kim^J> Why? So Ubuntu must wait even longer to get it?
<LaserJock> why would it?
<LaserJock> it won't take any longer
<Kim^J> Do you think SuSE works WITH Gnome all the time? No, but the things gets to Gnome anyway.
<Kim^J> s/gets/get/
<LaserJock> yes, openSUSE does work with Gnome all the time
<LaserJock> that's why Novell employees Gnome people
<LaserJock> *employs
<Kim^J> I think it goes MUCH faster to develop on own platform, test, use, extend, then make it upstream.
<LaserJock> but why not do the *exact* same thing upstream?
<LaserJock> it seems like a waste of effort
<Kim^J> What?
<Kim^J> It's being sent to Gnome anyway, the whole thing, done and ready to compile.
<LaserJock> but why not work *with* Gnome is the point
<LaserJock> you can get more testers, more knowledge, more help
<Kim^J> But we are going to.
<LaserJock> seems like a win-win situation
<LaserJock> only after it's done
<LaserJock> perhaps the Gnome guys have a much better way to implement it, etc.
<LaserJock> or perhaps they've started work on something similar, who knows
<LaserJock> but it's probably worth a look
<Kim^J> Whatever...
<ffm> LaserJock, The people on #gnome on GIMPnet are dead.
<ffm> 140 ppl in chan, noone responds.
<Kim^J> No life in ##gnome @ Freenode...
<LaserJock> ffm: it's a weekend
<Kim^J> LaserJock: So? Weekends = More time to IRC.
<ffm> LaserJock, And I'm in school on weekdays.
<LaserJock> for working people it's often a break
<LaserJock> ffm: there's an interesting new technology called email, you may have heard of it ;-)
<ffm> LaserJock, Bah!
<uyann> word of advice, make sure users are adequately warned before using the entire disk for ubuntu during installation
<ffm> uyann, You mean removing the windows partitions?
<ffm> uyann, Or filling it to the brim?
<uyann> I had both windows and ubuntu installed on my machine
<uyann> I decided to install the latest ubuntu today
<uyann> I was happily clicking on next next etc...
<pwnguin> so in your state of clicking next, do you think you would have read and understood a warning?
<uyann> because the default was set to use the entire disk I clicked on next
<uyann> yes if the button was not "Next", I may have stopped
<uyann> and if a red warning sign appeared.. absolutely
<ffm> uyann, You'd be surprised.
<Kim^J> uyann: Naaah, normal Windows-users would just click on that too without reading. ;)
<uyann> I understand that Ubuntu is being made to be installed as easy as possible.. but it's really dangerous...
<uyann> :/
<ffm> uyann, Some people will only do so if required to do something like type "I understand all data on my disk will be lost"
<LaserJock> uyann: do you remember if it had anything else before formating the drive?
<uyann> yes
<uyann> I remember the button "Advanced"
<pwnguin> ffm: i recall a packages somewhere requiring that sort of interaction
<uyann> and then I clicked on next and it started repartitioning
<LaserJock> uyann: did it give you a summary of what it was going to do?
<LaserJock> it's been a while since I used the GUI installer
<pwnguin> uyann: maybe if we forced users to back up their data before installing
<highvoltage> uyann: word of advice, if you boot from /any/ CD, try to be careful with just clicking on 'next' ;)
<uyann> pwnguin, no, do not force users to backup
<pwnguin> then there's no good solution
<uyann> yeah, I understand it's my fault..
<pwnguin> things can and will (in a small number of cases) go wrong
<pwnguin> best practice is to make backups
<pwnguin> i think the installer even says at the beginning to make a backup
<LaserJock> I think a nice little thing with a stop sign or something that says "The entire hard drive is going to be erased" or some such
<uyann> 4 seconds just passed when it was repartitioning
<uyann> I believe I can still rescue the partition
<uyann> LaserJock, I agree
<pwnguin> LaserJock: so what if you resize the partition?
<LaserJock> I think that's a bit more self explanatory
<uyann> 'data may be lot by proceeding with this operation' or something to that effect
<LaserJock> but if I remember right the installer says "Use entire hard disk" or something like that
<uyann> yes
<uyann> it was set to the default
<LaserJock> "Use" does not imply "Erase"
<hdevalence> i think the warning needs to be big, red, and scary
<LaserJock> which is where I can see confusion
<hdevalence> otherwise it'll be ignored
<pwnguin> there's no situation i can imagine where "data may be lost by proceeding with this installation" SHOULDN'T be shown under this argument
<pwnguin> repartitioning can cause data loss
<pwnguin> reformatting the entire drive will cause data loss
<pwnguin> the warning doesn't solve anything
<pwnguin> backups do
<LaserJock> no, I don't think we necessarily need a "your data may be lost"
<LaserJock> but users need a reasonable expectation of what's gonna happen to their disk
<LaserJock> with perhaps special attention to defaults
<LaserJock> for the "Next" clickers ;-)
 * uyann pour moi
<pwnguin> whats going to happen is theres a chance for data loss, and even if warned, they'll blame anyone but the only person who could have backed it up
<LaserJock> if you take the time to pick something other than the default then I assume you can read ;-)
<pwnguin> heh
<pwnguin> maybe switch next and back on that frame
<pwnguin> so if they just click without looking, it'll be a loop
<LaserJock> hah
<LaserJock> I always use the Manual partitioning so I have no idea what the guided partitioning does
<pwnguin> on a more serious note, why can't the ubuntu live cd provide at least an optional "back drive up" system?
<LaserJock> s/can't/has nobody yet written/
<pwnguin> i tried guided a few times, it's messy and sorta fluctuates. at one point the resize and install to a new partition guided thing was removed because it was prone to breakage
<highvoltage> pwnguin: you can create a spec for something like that
<ffm> I think there should be no default.
<ffm> You should have to choose one of them.
<highvoltage> ffm: wouldn't that, in itself be a default? :)
<LaserJock> ffm: yeah, that would make sense actually
<ffm> A) Wipe disk and use sensible defaults <bold> ALL DATA WILL BE LOST</bold>
<pwnguin> highvoltage: maybe if there was an Ubuntu SoC it could have been a pick
<LaserJock> uggg
<LaserJock> that would mean it would never get done ;-)
<pwnguin> colorfilter got done
<pwnguin> its interesting though how debian never seems to get "this should be easier / safer" complaints
<ffm> pwnguin, They don't bill themselves as designed for normal humans either.
<LaserJock> they don't?
<LaserJock> I'm pretty sure I've seen that kind of thing on debian-devel
<uyann> <ffm> I think there should be no default. <<< I agree, a simple change that may work....
<ffm> Why don't we bug the people in #ubuntu-installer?
<ffm> LaserJock, Do I have to make a spec just for that?
<LaserJock> ffm: I'm guessing not a lot of people are around in #ubuntu-installer because of the weekend
<LaserJock> I would think just for the no-default thing that would be a bug report
<LaserJock> safer handling of partitioning UI in general would probably be a spec
<LaserJock> but you'd want to probably talk to Colin about it first
<pwnguin> i still like my circular reference of doom idea ;)
<pwnguin> if there's no default, how will our poor, mildly informed user make a choice?
<uyann> pwnguin, hehe.. "Do you wish to go back an change a setting?" "Next"
<uyann> s/an/and
<pwnguin> the default is the default for a reason -- it's the most likely to work
<uyann> it'll work, ofcourse
<uyann> but it'll erase the entire disk
<LaserJock> well, it's also the most damaging
<pwnguin> (or does the most undamaging ;) )
<LaserJock> I doubt you'd say that if you accidentally wiped a drive you cared about ;-)
<pwnguin> if i had drives i cared about
<pwnguin> i'd back them up
<LaserJock> maybe
<LaserJock> but a great majority of users don't
<pwnguin> then we should help them
<uyann> yup, a majority of people don't backup and don't read instructions
<LaserJock> and it's a rather lame excuse for failure
<uyann> I trusted Ubuntu. I'm now scarred for life. I feel like I've been raped by it.
<pwnguin> as long as failure is possible, not pushing backups is a failure itself
<uyann> lol
<LaserJock> that's like a care mechanic saying "oh, you have a backup car right?" when he destroys your engine
<LaserJock> sure, it's good to have one
<pwnguin> when he destroys your engine he gets you a new one
<LaserJock> but you should be able to reasonably expect that the mechanic isn't going to destroy your car
<pwnguin> there is no new data copy unless you make it
<pwnguin> a warning sign doesn't change your argument
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> if we can lower the number of people who run in to problems then that's good
<pwnguin> going back to the mechanic "i destroyed your engine; you read the sign on the door right?"
<LaserJock> *if* there was a sign on the door then it would be my problem, yes
<LaserJock> hence why people put signs up like that all the time
<pwnguin> but you can't assess that risk
<pwnguin> the mechanic can
<LaserJock> so we (the mechanic) has a responsibility to reasonably warn users
<LaserJock> *have
<LaserJock> that's my point
<pwnguin> and where possible, mititage the risk entirely
<LaserJock> sure
<LaserJock> but that doesn't exist right now
<LaserJock> so it's rather mute
<pwnguin> wow, i misspelled that pretty badly
<pwnguin> mitigate
<_hdevalence> has it been considered to use something like debtorrent for distribution upgrades?
<LaserJock> I believe it has been considered to use debtorrent period, I believe
<_hdevalence> I have to say, it's REALLY annoying when the servers are swamped with everyone trying to upgrade
<LaserJock> uh, yeah
<_hdevalence> and I'm sure that server bandwith for that many upgraders is not cheap
<LaserJock> sure
<pwnguin> well, everyone and their mom mirrors
<_hdevalence> well, using my local mirror, I was getting speeds from 30-60 KB/s
<LaserJock> I haven't really noticed all that much of a slow down this time
<LaserJock> it was waay worse in the past I think
<LaserJock> but yeah, it would help to have things like debtorrent, and package diffs
<pwnguin> i wonder about package diffs
<pwnguin> seems like you'd need to keep several of those around
<_hdevalence> I think debtorrent would be good enough. package diffs are more complicated
<LaserJock> pwnguin: it's a lot of load on the servers I think any way you do it
#ubuntu-devel 2008-04-27
<smallfoot-> there is a bug that make pink shadows, you know it?
<smallfoot-> its for ppl with nvidia geforce card
<smallfoot-> you can fix it with this: "sudo ln -sf /usr/lib/nvidia/libwfb.so.xserver-xorg-core /usr/lib/xorg/modules/libwfb.so"
<smallfoot-> plz fix upstream
<smallfoot-> plz make so thumb mouse button in my mouse work for move back/forward in nautilus and firefox
<crimsun> please file bugs using https://launchpad.net
<smallfoot-> i did
<smallfoot-> but they dont listen to me :(
<smallfoot-> i made it in 7.10 and now i use 8.04 but it still not have that :(
* persia changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: ï»¿Ubuntu 8.04 LTS released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/ï»¿feisty/gutsy/hardyï»¿, #ubuntu+1 for intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<superm1> slangasek, you can nuke mythbuntu-control-centre 0.28-0ubuntu1 from hardy proposed.  i meant to upload 0.28-0ubuntu1~hardy1 (which I just did)
<superm1> sorry for the mistake
<wgrant> superm1: That's not valid -proposed versioning...
<superm1> wgrant, its the sort of thing that was agreed on from what i understand until intrepid opens
<superm1> because 0.28-0ubuntu1 isn't in intrepid yet, but will be
<wgrant> That's backports versioning.
<wgrant> 0.28-0ubuntu0.1 would be more right.
<superm1> well jdong acked the bug for laga, so i was just doing my part to get it in...
<wgrant> Hmmm.
 * persia advocates the creation of a guide answering the question "How do I select the next revision string" in the wiki
<superm1> there is always this kind of confusion in between dev cycles
<superm1> or similar
<persia> I don't think the revision code strings should be different between cycles from during cycles.
<wgrant> If it's aimed for -proposed, surely -backports versioning is very wrong?
<persia> If nothing else, it makes it difficult to backport
<wgrant> And confuses people.
<persia> True.  Confuses all of developers, archive admins, testers, and end-users.
<LaserJock> I was just reading the SRU policy this evening
<LaserJock> and it says to use -security versioning
<LaserJock> i.e. section 4 of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures#Prepare
<persia> We definitely need a definitive guide to specify appropriate versioning for all of backports, updates, and security.
<LaserJock> I think backports versioning is also on a wiki page
<LaserJock> but yes, it takes a lot of clicks to find anything
<LaserJock> and it's not used consistently
<persia> It's the last that is the issue.
<wgrant> It's used consistently except by GNOME people.
<wgrant> Which then confuses everyone else into using braindead versioning, I guess.
<persia> wgrant: That's not fair.ï»¿  mythbuntu-control-centre isn't GNOME.
<LaserJock> I was unaware of it until this evening
<LaserJock> so I imagine other people are confused ;-)
<wgrant> persia: I meant they were 'everyone else'
<LaserJock> this would go well with my idea of cheatsheet pages for developers
<wgrant> It would.
<persia> Ah.  Yes.  Still, be nice to have something on the wiki.  I couldn't find anything yesterday.
<jdong> wgrant: sorry for the confusion; I thought -proposed could take on backports-style versioning for new-upstream-version SRUs
<jdong> but either way, use whatever versioning scheme everyone is comfortable with
<wgrant> I don't see why that versioning should be any more special than normal SRU versioning.
<jdong> either way would work for this package.
<jdong> IMO 0ubuntu0.1 for when the "old" packaging was used for the new version, "0ubuntu1~hardy1" for when intrepid-like packaging was used for the hardy package
<jdong> in this case both scenarios are equivalent
<wgrant> But 9:1.2.3+really1.4.5~8.7-3.7etch1lenny2+7.4ubuntu9.8~hardy1 is a valid version as well, but it would never be used, both because it's stupid, and it's not convention.
<wgrant> We have version conventions, although we probably can't enforce them if our GNOME maintainers don't follow them :(
<wgrant> ALl security, release and backports uploads follow them; why shouldn't updates?
<jdong> don't get me wrong, 0ubuntu0.1 is completely fine by me
<jdong> and if we do have version conventions, they sure aren't documented all that well
<jdong> we definitely have had -updates using ~gutsy/~hardy syntax
<wgrant> -security is clearly documented on SecurityUpdateProcedure, -backports must be somewhere, and release everybody knows.
<wgrant> I see one instance of a ~gutsyX in gutsy-updates.
<wgrant> And that's because it was copied from -backports.
<a7x> would someone be willing to review a patch for me?  it's a simple shell script change for compiz.  (LP: #221661)
<jc-denton> hi all
<jc-denton> is there a way to install gcc-2.95 on hardy
<jc-denton> there is no package
<jc-denton> and i tried to compile it, but it fails
<jc-denton> http://rafb.net/p/cYgq3p98.html
<fela> I don't really understand when /var/lib/apt/extended_states is used... I tried to uninstall and install the same program with apt-get, adept, synaptic, aptitude, but in no case it seems to show up in that file...
<fela> (I'm still using feisty)
<emgent> heya
<LotsaCabo> Anyone have a good How-To on getting started with Mono on Ubuntu 8?
<Hobbsee> LotsaCabo: #ubuntu for support.  or perhaps ##mono
<rc55> Hi - is there a channel for anyone interested in packaging?
<ion_> rc55: #ubuntu-motu
<rc55> ion_: thank you
<daedra> hardy just crashed, is there a way to get a log of it and submit it?
<ion_> Can you be more specific about what crashed?
<daedra> well I couldn't tell
<daedra> I was in openoffice, and then everything froze
<daedra> so I tried doing SysReq keys
<daedra> managed to reboot it, but I don't know where to get an error log from my system
<InforMed> Hi! Why hardy change from ipw driver to iwl?
<daedra> just what can you do when the whole system hangs?
<InforMed> Is there a way to go back to ipw?
<ffm> If a package was removed from the repos, but packages that depend on that package are still there, how do I ask that those packages be removed as well as they are not installable?
<ffm> Example: sugar-write-activity depends on python-abiword but is not installable.
<geser> ffm: can't sugar-write-activity be fixed to work without python-abiword?
<ffm> geser, No.
<ffm> geser, sugar-write-activity is built using abiword.
<ffm> geser, unless its functionality can be mimicked by another package.
<geser> then file a bug request asking for its removal
<geser> and give a rationale for why it should be removed and subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors
<geser> but this won't be fixed in hardy anymore only intrepid
<ffm> geser, can't it be fixed for 8.04.1?
<bbrazil> I've an odd suspicion that the -16 hardy kernel is FTBFS
<bbrazil> but don't currently have the compute resources to spare to verify it
<geser> bbrazil: linux 2.6.24-16.30 build successfully (but I don't if it's still the case)
<bbrazil> hmm, I'm on that revision but doing other crazy stuff with it, so probably my fault then
<ffm> Is there any chance of us making use of ksplice?
<ffm> I'd be great to change from "Never reboot, except for kernel updates" to "Never need to reboot, _ever_"
<bbrazil> issue is that the xen patches include Kconfig.orig and Kconfig, and as I'm altering Kconfig  'patch' creates a Kconfig.orig and it goes downhill from there
<bbrazil> one bug coming up
<CrippledCanary> does anyone here now if it is possible to upload to universe or mulitverse in a PPA or is it just main?
<geser> CrippledCanary: iirc PPA doesn't distinguish between main and universe
<CrippledCanary> ok... thanks
<geser> for multiverse you need to check with the PPA terms
<bbrazil> filed as #223175 for anyone who cares, with full repo
<salty-horse> hi. any xkb hackers around?
<salty-horse> bryce, maybe?
<pwnguin> i dont think anyone would ever describe themselves as xkb hackers
<salty-horse> pwnguin, I'm looking for someone who has a bit of authority to quell bugs like https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/196277 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/xkeyboard-config/+bug/205314 from becoming "I can confirm this" floods -- and I have some preventative temporary solutions I'd like to propose/discuss. seems like the bugs themselves are a bad place to do it now
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 196277 in xorg "[hardy] keyboard layout switching shortcut doesn't work after reboot" [High,Confirmed]
<bryce> hi salty-horse
<bryce> "confirm storms" heh
<salty-horse> hi, are you the go-to guy on whatever I mentioned above?
<salty-horse> ;)
<bryce> yeah
<salty-horse> I think (after talking to svu) all of those are caused by https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4927      so:
<ubotu> Freedesktop bug 4927 in Input/Keyboard "XKM files do not keep the information regarding the explicit vmodmap mask" [Major,Reopened]
<salty-horse> 1) people around the community -- especially those in non-english speaking countries, should be notified that this is a known problem, or they would keep filing new bugs with different descriptions and confirm current bugs
<bryce> salty-horse: looking
<salty-horse> 2) I think (not really understanding things) that adding "setxkbmap" to /etc/profile will help the problem of "chaning layout doesn't work" -- (it doesn't fix the problem of several key combinations layout-changers not working such as "alt-alt"). I say this because going into the layout options gui, adding a 'v' and removing it works, and a no-parameter call to setxkbmap seems to do the same
<bryce> wow, the description in 196277 is rather obtuse...  I like yours better
<salty-horse> 3) this is *very important* to non-english users, as pointed out in the bugs, and can be deduced by the sheer number of comments and dupes
<bryce> salty-horse: has a patch been identified?
<salty-horse> bryce, better talk to svu about it -- he's afk at the moment
<salty-horse> bryce, again, I am no expert at this. I'm just giving you a "sitrep" in the midst of a defcon-2 (...it sounds cooler in geopolitical thrillers)
<bryce> salty-horse: ok thanks
<salty-horse> thanks for looking at it!!! :)
<bryce> salty-horse: I'll put it on my watch list, and hopefully a patch will make itself known
<salty-horse> this bug has several manifestations
<salty-horse> I think the setxkbmap call fixes some of them. I think it's the solution that should be investigated first, before looking into patching xkb code "unofficially"
<salty-horse> s/solution/patchy hack/
<bryce> salty-horse: hmm, upstream doesn't sound like they want to fix it (at least not quickly)
<salty-horse> yup. that's the problem :/
<bryce> salty-horse: do you know what change caused the breakage?
<salty-horse> nope. please talk to svu for the info -- sorry for being such a dry well of information
<Lightkey> a salty horse, in my #ubuntu-devel? O_o
<salty-horse> Lightkey, err.. this is kinda awkward... so...
<Lightkey> you did not answer my query ;p
<salty-horse> bryce, a hint until you talk to svu: http://blogs.gnome.org/sudaltsov/2008/03/23/xkb-suxx-c/
<salty-horse> Lightkey, someone pinged you on #scummvm
<zyx386> hi
<zyx386> what is about this bug in Hardy? 191889
<salty-horse> bryce, you might want to merge the two bugs into one.. dupe one of them, maybe, and change the title to something more encompassing than "problem with shortcuts"
<bryce> yep, doing that
<salty-horse> thanks a bunch
<bryce> salty-horse: would you mind please looking through launchpad for other dupes and duping them to 196277?
<salty-horse> sure. I'll do that right after I finish dinner (15 minutes?) :)
<bryce> yeah I need to get breakfast myself... bbiab
<salty-horse> breakfast?! this time of night?! :)
<ubuntu__> hello
<ubuntu__> how is everybody?
<ubuntu__> im looking to understand how and why the ubuntu developers choose some packages and features to be included
<ubuntu__> does anybody can point me at some interesting blog, or a discussion about this
<ubuntu__> im kind of more interested in the human factor, the psycology of that
<ffm> ubuntu__, Uh, packages are included becasue they have maintainers.
<ubuntu__> and why some features in the blueprints get more attention that others?
<kmpa> Hello, I need some help
<nand> hi
<kmpa> HI
<kmpa> can u help me?
<nand> just ask your question :)
<kmpa> I want to share in the development of ubuntu, and I don't know how
<nand> kmpa:  a good place to start: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
<nand> there are lots of pointers to different teams
<nand> depend of what you want to do/what are your skills
<kmpa> ok, I think this is enough, thank you
<nand> you're welcome!
<nand> Ubuntu's own summer of code (slightly different): would it interest some of you as mentor? mentoree? : https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-own-summer-of-code
 * nand is doing a poll :)
<ffm> nand, How about the GHOPC?
<ffm> nand, Ah, I see...
<ffm> nand, Do we get tshirts ;)
<nand> ffm: hehe, we could :)
<Kopfgeldjaeger> n8
 * Nitro is Away, Reason: ( sleep ) | Since: ( Sunday, April 27, 2008. 23:26:20 ) Xlack v2.1
<Lightkey> http://timedoctor.org/2008/04/an-unfortunate-guide-to-upgrading-ubuntu/
<mdke> is apport turned off now that hardy is stable? I just saw the same bug reported 6 times in quick succession via a failed hardy upgrade, each time on different packages
<mdke> bug 223324 if it matters
<ubotu> Launchpad bug 223324 in scrollkeeper "package gnome-user-guide 2.22.0+svn20080407ubuntu1 failed to install/upgrade: problemi con le dipendenze - lasciato non configurato" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/223324
<mdke> oh dear, looking at the user's bug page, it looks a lot worse, there are tens of em
#ubuntu-devel 2009-04-20
<ArneGoetje> Riddell: I'm afraid not. That would result into inconsistencies in Rosetta and duplicate files in two packages (-base and the updates).
<slangasek> ArneGoetje: the changes in question were made to the -kde-base langpacks, uploaded, and accepted; what are the consequences of this?
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: the future l-p updates are deltas to the original -base packages. The files which have been added manually to the -base packages would then also be in the l-p updates.
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: until the next round of full exports resulting in new -base packages being built.
<bluefoxicy> http://uploads.ungrounded.net/257000/257818_SuperMarioLand2foreal.swf
<bluefoxicy> If you're using gnash, watch this
<bluefoxicy> it's funny, but more funny when it doesn't get 40-60 seconds out of sync
<slangasek> ArneGoetje: yes, which means that the packages will have unnecessary duplication; but will anything break?
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: I don't think anything will break. Just the duplications.
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: shouldn't we then not patch all the -kde-base packs?
<AndyTim> Hello again devels.  So I'm strongly considering adding the httpfs FUSE binary to the Ubuntu live CD initrd so that one could obtain the live CD environment entirely via HTTP.
<AndyTim> I am wondering if this is a direction that the official Ubuntu would like to explore.
<AndyTim> A publicly hosted web-server with the entire squashfs in RAM should be able to serve on-demand sectors to clients, who could easily boot via gPXE on even a floppy.
<Hobbsee> AndyTim: that's probably something you want to ask in ~6 hours, FYI.  Most of Europe is asleep now.
<AndyTim> Hobbsee: I see.  Thank you very much.
<Hobbsee> AndyTim: you're welcome
 * TheMuso can only think of one thing, nelss the livefs was on a local server. lag.
<TheMuso> unless
<AndyTim> TheMuso: Well, the support would be there for both cases, I suppose.  I guess anyone using a public would have to make the best of it. :)  Here's hoping VFS caching could help a smidgeon.
<pwnguin> AndyTim: how much bigger would that make the livecd?
<slangasek> ArneGoetje: sorry, I'm not following your double-negative
<lifeless> AndyTim: vfs caching doesn't help with latency much
<AndyTim> pwnguin: The mere addition of the FUSE module and httpfs binary into the compressed initrd.
<AndyTim> pwnguin: But the Ubuntu web-site could offer a gPXE floppy image for people to try Ubuntu out.
<AndyTim> lifeless: That's too bad.
<pwnguin> AndyTim: well if you want it in the official livecd, there's rigid constraints on the size of a CD
<lifeless> AndyTim: do some quick figures - 512 bytes a sector, 200ms latency (say, which is actually very optimistic for cross-world latency)
<AndyTim> pwnguin: I'm talking probably a couple of megabytes.
<pwnguin> there's also the requirement that the livecd continues to have an initrd.
<pwnguin> AndyTim: thats more substantial than i thought, and you may want to ask for some stories of the pain "a couple of megabytes" induces :)
<AndyTim> pwnguin: Ok, I take it back.  The module can be download as-needed.  So I'm then talking a couple of lines in the script.
<AndyTim> lifeless: Not sure I get what you're saying.  I don't know how many sectors need loading until one gets desktop.  Any idea?
<lifeless> AndyTim: hundreds of thousands
<AndyTim> lifeless: I'm not suggesting transferring the entire squashfs into the client's RAM, but maybe you know that.
<pwnguin> thats hundres of thousands of round trips, no?
<AndyTim> pwnguin: I don't think so.
<AndyTim> Well, people install via HTTP, so it can't be that bad.
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: If you patch one -kde-base package to include the missing desktop_* files, why not patch all -kde-base packages with the missing desktop_* files?
<lifeless> AndyTim: install is radically different
<pwnguin> anyways, if you think its worth pursuing, subscribe to ubuntu-devel, write up a blueprint and attend uds if you can
<lifeless> AndyTim: install is one round trip per package to download
<slangasek> ArneGoetje: AIUI, he patched all the ones for which desktop files were actually missing; is that not the case?
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: I don't know
<pwnguin> i dont see a substantial reason this couldn't be done if someone's willing to actually do it and test it
<AndyTim> Well I'm at it right now.  I wanted to gather some devel feedback, and I have some now.
<pwnguin> AndyTim: the ubuntu-devel mailling list is a better place for peer review
<AndyTim> pwnguin: I see.
<pwnguin> it's a asynchronous communication channel, if you will
<AndyTim> lifeless: So is a request for contiguous sectors.  Would we be jumping all over the squashfs in loading to a desktop, do you think?
<ArneGoetje> slangasek: ah, ok, according to the bug report he did.
<pwnguin> AndyTim: you know, there's an awesome tool out there to draw access patterns into movies. doubt it'll work for this question though
<AndyTim> pwnguin: Never heard of it, but I'm certainly going to be using Wireshark to take a look at access patterns during testing.
<lifeless> AndyTim: its very much going to depend on how effective request coalescing is
<lifeless> AndyTim: A first approximation would be to add latency to your http server and just boot off it
<AndyTim> lifeless: I wonder if it's also possible to optimize the squashfs for booting at all.  Maybe not.
<AndyTim> lifeless: Yes.
<AndyTim> pwnguin: The contraints you mentioned are due to trying to pack the squashfs as fully as possible?
<AndyTim> pwnguin: Or is it more about RAM in-use by the initrd?
<pwnguin> AndyTim: the main constraint I'm aware of is that the liveCD .iso can only be so big
<AndyTim> pwnguin: Yes.  Thanks.
<lifeless> AndyTim: we already exceed the physical limits of a cdrom
<AndyTim> lifeless: Pushing .ISO?  Heheh.  Good for you folks.
<AndyTim> (CD, I mean)
<lifeless> AndyTim: squashfs is one tool to get an iso that fits on a cd people can burn
<lifeless> AndyTim: so all changes get pressured to fit
<AndyTim> lifeless: Well this needn't be on the installer CD at all.  It's a modified initrd for use with PXE/gPXE clients, I'd say.  Anyone with the CD should use it!
<AndyTim> Heh.
<AndyTim> However I can appreciate not wanting to manage initrds for use cases.
<pwnguin> you want to duplicate all of initrd for this?
<AndyTim> I was simply going to add to scripts/casper, for example, and add any needed binaries.
<AndyTim> Minimally, that would be wget or curl or something
<AndyTim> By the way, it appears that a flavour of Knoppix does all this already.
<AndyTim> http://httpfs.sourceforge.net/net_boot.htm   and http://unit.aist.go.jp/itri/knoppix/http-fuse/index-en.html   for anyone that's interested.
<pwnguin> is httpfs packaged in ubuntu?
<AndyTim> Not that I know of, unfortunately.  I tried to apt-get it earlier...
<pwnguin> that might be a good starting point for you then
<AndyTim> But it's compatible; I've tested the downloaded binary
<AndyTim> pwnguin: You mean packaging it?
<pwnguin> yea
<AndyTim> pwnguin: Hee hee; I'm afraid I'm not a big package management fan.  Sorry.  :(  This is more for a gPXE showcase, to tell true.  I thought this community could benefit, though.
<pwnguin> well it'd be a significant hurdle to get core devel to accept a initrd script that wgets a binary
<AndyTim> (As clearly users could benefit from Ubuntu-via-NIC-ROM/floppy/128 MB USB stick, etc. if it all works)
<AndyTim> pwnguin: Oh?  This would only happen if NETBOOT= some URI.
<pwnguin> on the otherhand, im not sure they'd go for apt-get either
<AndyTim> pwnguin: Goes against some policy?
<AndyTim> pwnguin: Well if the initrd is separated from the installer CD case, the size constraint disappears.
<pwnguin> AndyTim: perhaps you should write the mailing lists and get a wider audience than whoever's paying attention
<AndyTim> Heheheh.  Yes, first I will have one hosted for folks to try.  Then I will e-mail.
<AndyTim> Hmm, that reminds me, gotta make sure that jives with Ubuntu.  Hosting it publicly, that is.
<pwnguin> hosting what?
<AndyTim> Hosting folks booting Ubuntu from me.
<AndyTim> It's little different than a mirror, I'd imagine
<pwnguin> i think the main problem is yours
<pwnguin> how does the gpl source requirement work in that situation?
<AndyTim> Yeah I just mean I will have to perform the diligence and be sure Ubuntu doesn't say not to anywhere.
<lifeless> AndyTim: its the same as a mirror of the binary debs
<lifeless> AndyTim: you can definitely do it, you just need to meet the source distribution requirement too
<AndyTim> lifeless: Thanks for that.  With fortune, this can be the same referral that the CD would use, I imagine.
<lifeless> AndyTim: CD's we ship (physical ones) have a written offer
<lifeless> AndyTim: .iso files people can download have the source available from the same site, no external referring
<AndyTim> There's the catch, then.
<lifeless> http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#UnchangedJustBinary
<lifeless> http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#SourceAndBinaryOnDifferentSites is better actually
<LaserJock> lifeless: I thought mdz said that people could point to Ubuntu
<pwnguin> LaserJock: i think the project in mind requires some modifications
 * AndyTim reviews both.
<lifeless> LaserJock: hmm, I'll need to check. I'm sure we're happy for people to point at us; but you still need to make sure you point at things that still exist
<LaserJock> pwnguin: hmmm, yeah, you would have to have the source for the modifications
<LaserJock> lifeless: yep
<lifeless> LaserJock: consider tracking kinky, binaries you mirror will have their sources garbage collected quite frequently
<AndyTim> Ideally this would be a success and the Ubuntu community would enjoy hosting it. :)
<pwnguin> AndyTim: well, thats one of the nice things package management offers: source packages
<AndyTim> As a matter of fact, you already do.  One could mount the Ubuntu-hosted .ISO and then open it up for the squashfs.
<pwnguin> this is driving me crazy though. what's the name of that program that watches fs activity and draws out the access patterns over time...
<AndyTim> pwnguin: A graphics one?  One could possibly parse the output of another tool...  What is _it_ called again, though...
<lifeless> bootchart?
<pwnguin> aha
<pwnguin> http://oss.oracle.com/~mason/seekwatcher/
<AndyTim> Nice.
<AndyTim> As a matter of fact, the initrd's BusyBox has wget already.  We're talking text compression, then.
<AndyTim> Adding some lines to the scripts/casper script and recompressing with gzip -9 yields a smaller file size than the original initrd.  I love it when that happens.
<AndyTim> Anyone know off the top of their head where I can find the Ubuntu 8.10 pxelinux.cfg/ directory for a network install before I search the web for it?
<geofft> AndyTim: I made http://tinyurl.com/intrepid-netinst some time ago after getting tired of Googling
<geofft> I assume you found it by now, but hopefully this is helpful in the future :)
<AndyTim> No, actually, I didn't.
<AndyTim> geofft: So thanks.  Is that a simple conversion of the ISOLINUX stuff?  Looks like it's not quite as full.
<AndyTim> No gfxboot, it seems.
<geofft> I'm not sure... my limited understanding is that it's smaller than the alternate CD
<geofft> personally, I only use that directory to boot linux+initrd.gz via GRUB
<AndyTim> geofft: Ok.  Thanks.
<pitti> Good morning
<AndyTim> pitti: And to you.
<StevenK> Morning pitti
<dholbach> good morning
 * pitti hugs dholbach
 * dholbach hugs pitti back
<dholbach> zul: how does bug 362691 look to you?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 362691 in xen-3.3 "XEN depends on Python 2.5" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362691
<cody-somerville> Thats odd. I'm upgrading to Jaunty from Intrepid and I just got a debconf question saying "It seems to be your first LILO installation. It is...".
<cody-somerville> LILO isn't suppose to get installed on upgrade to Jaunty, is it?
<pitti> slangasek: remaining langpacks NEWed, that should clean up component-mismatches further
<slangasek> ah, yes
<slangasek> thanks
<Hobbsee> cody-somerville: no, but that bug should have been fixed - did you dist-upgrade, or use the upgrade manager?
<cody-somerville> dist-upgrade
<Hobbsee> that would probably be why, then.
<hyperair> why would dist-upgrade install lilo?
<Hobbsee> cody-somerville: that would be https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/314004
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 314004 in ubiquity "Lilo gets installed on dist-upgrades, due to the kernel image recommending it. Is this intentional?" [Critical,Fix released]
<Hobbsee> (i think)
<hyperair> ah bad dependency eh
<hyperair> but if that bug is fixed, shouldn't dist-upgrade not pull lilo any more?
<slangasek> it doesn't pull it in; it's already thee
<slangasek> there
<cody-somerville> indeed
<cody-somerville> hyperair, You should have read the bug report Hobbsee pasted if you're so interested
<hyperair> cody-somerville: did.
<hyperair> jsut did
<dholbach> doko: how does bug 362691 look to you?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 362691 in xen-3.3 "XEN depends on Python 2.5" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362691
<hyperair> but i'm running x86 intrepid and don't see lilo
<Hobbsee> hyperair: installed by desktop or alternate?
<hyperair> Hobbsee: desktop
<Hobbsee> strange
<hyperair> indeed.
<robert_ancell> pitti: hi!
<pitti> hey robert_ancell, how are you?
<pitti> had a good weekend?
<robert_ancell> pitti: yeah, I had the last week off in a long-planned holiday so had a great time catching up with people in New Zealand
<pitti> nice
<hyperair> Hobbsee: oh right, i installed using the hardy desktop cd, and then used update-manager to upgrade to intrepid.
<Hobbsee> hyperair: that would be why, then.
<cody-somerville> err...
<slangasek> superm1: mesa->SRU?
<cody-somerville> the box I was upgrading just... crashed? Screen is now black, doesn't respond to pings, but I can hear that the computer is still running :/
<Jordan_U> cody-somerville, Does sysrq(alt+printscreen)+r print anything to the screen?
<geser> whoever looks at xen now, could the person also look at bug 286450. it was found during the freeze for interpid, but is still not fixed :( Luckily it doesn't cause any upgrade problems
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 286450 in xen-3.3 "libxen3 and libxen3-dev have bogus Replaces: versions" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/286450
<cody-somerville> Jordan_U, the machine doesn't have keyboard or mouse
<cody-somerville> Hopefully the logs will shed some light once fsck is done. I guess it likes to be checked more regularly than every 200 days.
<lesshaste>  I have crash in gdmsetup in ubuntu.. how do I install the debug symbols so I can give a useful backtrace?
<RAOF> lesshaste: Work out what package that's in (I'd guess 'gdm'), add the dbgsym repository (wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingHowto), and install gdm-dbgsym.
<RAOF> Sorry.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash/
<lesshaste> gdm-dbgsym doesn't exist
<RAOF> Have you added the dbgsym repository, and updated your package lists?
<doko> dholbach: looks fine
<lesshaste> RAOF: I need main restricted universe multiverse right?
<RAOF> Well, only main for this, but there's no harm in including everything.
<cjwatson> geofft: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/intrepid/ isn't too bad as URLs go ...
<geofft> cjwatson: ooh, thanks. So, uh, where's that documented? :)
<cjwatson> geofft: *waves hands*
<cjwatson> geofft: where would you like it to be documented?
<geofft> cjwatson: preferably, as a result of google(ubuntu netboot). I guess in the text of the first result would work too
<geofft> hm, and I guess I can edit that?
<cjwatson> geofft: yup - if you just link to http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/, that has links for other releases
<cjwatson> I should probably create a directory there for dapper
<geofft> Installation/NetbootInstallFromInternet claims the kernel needs to be chmod +x. Is that actually true?
<cjwatson> news to me if it is
<pitti> slangasek: could you please give me a quick heads-up for bug 277589? (is that something for jaunty final?)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 277589 in hotkey-setup "sony brighness on a geforce series older than 8 (nvclock works fine)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/277589
<ivoks> pitti: thanks for dovecot-postfix thing; i'll rewrite 'echo' part for karmic
<cjwatson> geofft: ok, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/ prettified a bit, and I've added dapper
<lesshaste> RAOF: hm... I installed the debug symbols for gdm but... http://www.pastebin.ca/1397160
<lesshaste> :)
<geofft> cjwatson: :( I don't like to be reminded that dapper still exists
<lesshaste> I mean... :(
<seb128> pitti, slangasek: hi, bug #363169 is a change for a sru I guess?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 363169 in libxklavier "libxklavier is built without XInput support" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/363169
<lool> cjwatson: Ah!  that's where I saw the orion5x!
<lool> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/netboot/jaunty/
<lesshaste> RAOF: do I need some other debug symbols do you think?
<RAOF> lesshaste: Looks like you probably want... the glib, gtk, and gio dbgsyms.
<cjwatson> lool: ah yes. removed and added imx51.
<lool> Thanks
<lesshaste> RAOF: ok :)  Just finding the right debug package names is hard.apt-cache search dbgsym|grep gio returns nothing
<slangasek> pitti: 277589> I think that's pretty clearly SRU material at this point; I don't think we even have a good patch yet?
<pitti> slangasek: SRU> ack; I just don't even know what's going on with this bug in the first place, but you seemed to indicate that it's just a small packaging issue about putting fdi files somewhere?
<slangasek> pitti: we put an fdi file in, but it didn't have the intended effect because the systems in question do have a sysfs path set for the backlight - it's just not usable
<pitti> slangasek: right, that's what I figured as well, and why I asked for the hal debug output
<pitti> so I wasn't completely stupid then
<geofft> cjwatson: /netboot/jaunty/ says "alpha", but it looks like the RC now...
<slangasek> pitti: I believe there's already enough information there to sort out a correct solution, but it's not at the top of my priority list to discuss this today :)
<pitti> slangasek: agreed; thanks
<pitti> slangasek: I just seemed to remember that it was something like "where should I put this file" or so, that's why I asked
<seb128> pitti: hello ;-)
<lesshaste> I am a little mystified.. what do I have to install the get the debug symbols for a gdmsetup crash?  I can't see debug packages for glib or gio
<pitti> bonjour seb128!
<slangasek> seb128: 363169 - ah, hmm; well, definitely not for final - I guess it should be ok for an SRU, but we'll want to verify it heavily
<cjwatson> geofft: fixed, thanks
<ogra> slangasek, i uploaded the fix for irda-tilus for bug 340873 ... its not on the CD, please let it through
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 340873 in sane-backends "[Jaunty] modprobe requires .conf filenames now" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340873
<ogra> cjwatson, will there be a d-i upload before final ?
<slangasek> there already was one
<ogra> oh, when ?
<seb128> slangasek: ok, the code difference is basically a 8 lines function to do updates on changes, let's discuss that for a sru
 * ogra discovered yesterday that bug 353196 is a d-i issue, not a kernel one
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 353196 in linux "ixp4xx hwclock command stopped to work since beta release" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/353196
<lesshaste> I am trying to complete this bug report http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556458
<ubottu> Gnome bug 556458 in gio "crash in IA__g_file_load_partial_contents_finish (with X forwarding or "su")" [Critical,New]
<slangasek> ogra: three days ago
<ogra> ah
<ogra> well, a workaround is described in the bug so i guess users will have to live with it
<ogra> (unles we suddenly SRU d-i :) )
<slangasek> ogra: er, what component of d-i creates /etc/modprobe.d/local?
<slangasek> "Created by the Debian installer" - this doesn't mean the d-i package, and may not mean a udeb that's in the initramfs
<ogra> likely, yes
<slangasek> so this bug certainly isn't triaged yet to the point where we could even consider doing a d-i upload for it
<lesshaste> RAOF: well.. :) That was awkward..
<RAOF> lesshaste: ?
<lesshaste> turns out I needed to install gvfs-dbgsym and libglib2.0-0-dbg
<ogra> ok, i'll find it out though all pieces needed to boot the slug are in the d-i image ... i would expect the piece that created the cmdline to reside inside the initramfs
<lesshaste> hooray for uniform naming schemes :)
<ogra> but i need to take a look
<lesshaste> (he says sarcastically)
<RAOF> lesshaste: If I'd thought of it, I would have suggested "apt-file search $whateverlib.so.2" to find the name of the package to install.
<RAOF> Not very useful now, though.
<lesshaste> RAOF: that's what I did for each one in the end more or less
<seb128> lesshaste: you have binary-dbgsym for everything which is a consistant naming
<seb128> lesshaste: the -dbg are usually coming from debian which doesn't have -dbgsym for everything and add those randomly
<slangasek> ogra: I've looked in the ixp4xx initramfs and I don't find any references at all to the rtc-x1205 module; so it's not a d-i problem...
<lesshaste> seb128: libglib2.0-0-dbg was the odd one out
<slangasek> ogra: which is good, it means you have a better chance of getting a fix in
<seb128> lesshaste: you have libglib2.0-0-dbgsym too
<seb128> lesshaste: libglib2.0-0-dbg is coming from debian as said before
<ogra> slangasek, well, the cmdline gets created by d-i during the apex image building
<RAOF> IIRC, Debian might be getting a -dbgsym equivalent from this year's GSoC.
<lesshaste> seb128: I don't have libglib2.0-0-dbgsym on my system.. are you sure it exists?
<slangasek> ogra: what's an apex image?
<lesshaste> seb128:  a little script that finds the debug packages from the gdb output would be lovely :)
<cjwatson> ogra: actually, no - this particular command-line argument comes from the apex package
<cjwatson> ./src/mach-ixp42x/debian-nslu2-armeb_config:148:CONFIG_ENV_DEFAULT_CMDLINE="console=ttyS0,115200 rtc-x1205.probe=0,0x6f noirqdebug"
<cjwatson> ./src/mach-ixp42x/debian-nslu2-armeb_config:150:CONFIG_ENV_DEFAULT_CMDLINE_ALT="console=ttyS0,115200 rtc-x1205.probe=0,0x6f noirqdebug"
<cjwatson> ./src/mach-ixp42x/debian-nslu2-arm_config:148:CONFIG_ENV_DEFAULT_CMDLINE="console=ttyS0,115200 rtc-x1205.probe=0,0x6f noirqdebug"
<cjwatson> ./src/mach-ixp42x/debian-nslu2-arm_config:150:CONFIG_ENV_DEFAULT_CMDLINE_ALT="console=ttyS0,115200 rtc-x1205.probe=0,0x6f noirqdebug"
<seb128> lesshaste: yes, do you have a ddebs.ubuntu.com source?
<cjwatson> (took me a while to track it down)
<seb128> lesshaste: use apport, apport-retrace install all the dbgsym required to get a debug stacktrace
<ogra> ah, i was looking at the wrong place
<slangasek> cjwatson: hmm, though d-i b-d's on apex-nslu2; does that mean d-i does have to rebuild after fixing the apex package?
<ogra> ...build/config/armel/ixp4xx/netboot.cfg
<cjwatson> reassigned the bug
<lesshaste> seb128: I don't think I have a ddebs.ubuntu.com source.. let me check
<lesshaste> deb http://ddebs.ubuntu.com hardy-updates main restricted universe multiverse
<lesshaste> deb http://ddebs.ubuntu.com hardy-security main restricted universe multiverse
<lesshaste> that's all I got
<seb128> lesshaste: that would be your issue though
<seb128> lesshaste: you should add the same some for hardy if you use hardy, right now you have ddebs only for updates
<lesshaste> apport does nothing for me
<lesshaste> that let me to try to run gdmsetup.. which crashes :)
<lesshaste> that led..
<seb128> did you enable it?
<cjwatson> slangasek: in order to fix this for jaunty, yes
<seb128> it's not enabled by default on stable
<lesshaste> seb128: fixing sources...
<slangasek> cjwatson: <nod> I'd argue for release notes then
<slangasek> ogra: ^^
<ogra> slangasek, yes, the fix isnt to hard
<cjwatson> no idea how this could have broken since beta though
<cjwatson> I'm looking at apex source from December, and the option is there
<ogra> though we should SRU apex to not make it reappear
<ogra> cjwatson, it didnt show any issues before
<lesshaste> seb128: do I need one sources line for hardy and one for updates and one for security?
<cjwatson> ogra: yes, I read that in the bug; that doesn't mean I understand why
<seb128> lesshaste: right
<ogra> cjwatson, me neither
<slangasek> ogra: nack on irda-utils; this is a warning only with the current version of udev, and the removal should be guarded by appropriate checks to make sure the file you're removing is actually the one generated by the package
<ogra> cjwatson, the apex source doesnt contain the modprobe.d file though
<slangasek> (or better yet, move the existing file to the new name...)
<ogra> slangasek, so a simple mv ?
<lesshaste> seb128: I am sorry about this.. I don't think I am getting these sources lines right... deb-src http://ddebs.ubuntu.com hardy main restricted universe multiverse ?
<slangasek> ogra: guarded by appropriate version checks
<ogra> slangasek, note that the file isnt shipped by the package, its always been created in the postinst
<slangasek> yep
<slangasek> it's still a config file by virtue of being in /etc
<seb128> lesshaste: what about reading the documentation?
<slangasek> so you don't get to twiddle it indiscriminately
<mvo> tseliot: can you please have a look at #363500 and eyeball the nvidia-common diff
<seb128> lesshaste: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash for example
<tseliot> mvo: sure, let me have a look at it
<mvo> slangasek: is bug #363500 something we can consider for -final or rather a sru ?
<lesshaste> seb128: :) always a smart move... I have been looking for something that looks definitive without much l
<lesshaste> seb128: uck... that page doesn't have anything about source packages does it?
<seb128> lesshaste: why do you need sources now? I though you wanted debug variants
<cjwatson> ogra: no, of course it doesn't, that *is* created by d-i, but d-i is just doing what it's told
<lesshaste> seb128: sorry I have clearly misunderstood. <seb128> lesshaste: yes, do you have a ddebs.ubuntu.com source?
<lesshaste> seb128: that just means the standard lines like deb http://ddebs.ubuntu.com hardy main restricted universe multiverse ?
<cjwatson> ogra: (specifically, the source package that does what it's told here is debian-installer-utils)
<ogra> ah
<lesshaste> seb128: in sources.list and not the src version of those lines?
<ogra> well, i guess there is no value in fixing d-i-utils now, but i'll prepare an apex SRU
<slangasek> mvo: hmm; requires rebuilding all ISOs; let me have a closer look
<seb128> lesshaste: I don't understand the question
<seb128> lesshaste: those dbgsym are debug for the normal jaunty binaries, their is no specific sources
<geofft> Why does dash use stat() instead of access() for [ -r foo ]?
<lesshaste> seb128: I thought you were telling me how to find libglib2.0-0-dbgsym
<mvo> slangasek: I can work-around it in u-m, but I guess its the same problem. if we don't have to rebuild for something else its probably not worth it
<seb128> lesshaste: ok, I've discussed that enough, what about you read the wikipage?
<mvo> slangasek: it breaks all partial upgrades in u-m, but those should rare on stable and we can easily SRU nvidia-common
<slangasek> mvo: go ahead and upload; since nvidia-common 0.2.10 was already an exception to try to fix this, I think we should follow hrough
<cjwatson> ogra: I repeat, no fix is needed in debian-installer-utils
<geofft> I'm running into a bug with a networked filesystem where stat and access aren't the same, and #!/bin/bash seems like the wrong way to fix [
<cjwatson> ogra: it is *just doing what it's told* by the kernel command-line arguments
<geofft> is this a legit bug in dash?
<lesshaste> seb128:  In fact reading the web pages is irrelevant.. the problem was that just misunderstood you.. turns out you just meant add deb http://ddebs.ubuntu.com hardy main restricted universe multiverse
<mvo> slangasek: thanks, much appreciated. I will wait for tseliot to have a second look and then upload
<lesshaste> seb128: that the talk of source was just to confuse me :)
<ogra> cjwatson, oh, ok
<lesshaste> seb128: thanks for your help
<seb128> you're welcome
<slangasek> mvo: don't wait too long, please
<ogra> i wasnt aware it was that clever :)
<lesshaste> bug report now updated
<mvo> slangasek: sure, some minutes only, I tested it already here locally and it works fine
<ogra> slangasek, i assume you dont want uploads for SRUs in the queue yet ?
<slangasek> ogra: I have no objections at all to SRUs in the queue; the only doubt is whether it's possible to upload them yet
<seb128> it is
<seb128> I've uploaded some already
<slangasek> ok, great :)
<ogra> (in case anything enfoces a d-i rebuild having the fixed apex hand might help)
<slangasek> there's no reason we would rebuild d-i in SRU
<mophiax> Excuse me, what is the state of grub2, is it ready for a production machine?Will it be included in 9.10?
<slangasek> so if that's what you're planning to SRU, I don't think you should bother
<ogra> i mean before release indeed
<lesshaste> now I look at the bug report it starts
<lesshaste> 5253	/build/buildd/glib2.0-2.16.6/gio/gfile.c: No such file or directory.
<lesshaste> 	in /build/buildd/glib2.0-2.16.6/gio/gfile.c
<cjwatson> slangasek: (we do rebuild d-i in SRUs for kernel updates ...)
<lesshaste> which is a little mysterious
<slangasek> cjwatson: hmm, really?
<cjwatson> slangasek: especially ABI changers
<slangasek> well, ok
<cjwatson> there's a debian-installer upload on http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html right now, in fact
<ogra> slangasek, let me rephrase ... would you object an apex upload to the archive so in case we have to rebuild d-i before release the fix gets picked up ?
<tseliot> mvo: please proceed with the upload
<slangasek> ogra: no - that only affects one build on one architecture, so that's trivial to accomodate, please upload
<cjwatson> ogra: my concern there is that we could easily end up shipping binaries that don't match the source we provide
<cjwatson> if we do that, I think we should commit to rebuilding d-i :-/
<lesshaste> anyone know if there is a gnome devel channel around?
<slangasek> ah
<ogra> cjwatson, yes, that was the reason why i asked
<seb128> lesshaste: that means you don't have the glib source on disk so it can't match the codeline to some source
<slangasek> apex bits are copied into the image?
<cjwatson> slangasek: via a twisty path, but yes
<ogra> slangasek, yes, its the part of the netinstall that boots the device
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> then yeah, we ought either do them both in final, or both in SRU
<slangasek> (and my preference is SRU)
<ogra> ok, so i'll keep that back
<cjwatson> a release note for this is reasonably straightforward to write, isn't it? I mean, users have a feasible workaround?
<ogra> yes
<lesshaste> seb128: thanks.. I am slowly learning how to do this stuff...
<cjwatson> then I agree, open a task on ubuntu-release-notes with some sample text for the release notes, and let's fix it in an SRU
<ogra> i just dont want to lose out if there is a d-i rebuild and i'm afk
<cjwatson> ogra: then I recommend uploading apex to jaunty-proposed as if it were an SRU
<ogra> ok
<cjwatson> ogra: if we need to rebuild d-i when you're away, we can snag the diff from that and push it into jaunty
 * slangasek nods
<ogra> goo
<ogra> d
<lesshaste> seb128: ah.. looks like I am stuck at the end of my knowledge.. they want me to "put a breakpoint in g_log and re-run"
<seb128> lesshaste:
<seb128> gdb software
<seb128> (gdb) break g_log
<seb128> (gdb) run
<seb128> you can do "bt" and "continue" when it stops
<seb128> bt gives you a stacktrace, continue resume normal code run until the next break
<lesshaste> seb128: thanks! continue oddly just reports the same breakpoint exactly
<seb128> the same function can be called several time
<lesshaste> http://pastebin.ca/1397184
<seb128> it will stop on it each time it's called
<lesshaste> seb128: ok... so that seems to go on forever
<lesshaste> I just repeated continue 20 times :)
<seb128> g_log is called a lot, I'm not sure what you are trying to do
<lesshaste> seb128: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556458 I'll wait for the next request from that :)
<lesshaste> seb128: you get a thank you
<seb128> lesshaste: alex is on #nautilus on irc.gnome.org, could be easier to speak to him there
<lesshaste> seb128: I am trying to contact him/her now
<mok0> Does anyone know where the file /etc/X11/rgb.txt comes from?
<ogra> mok0, x11-common
<robert_ancell> seb128: good morning
<seb128> hello robert_ancell
<seb128> robert_ancell: how are you?
<robert_ancell> seb128: good.  anything major happen while I was away (spent all morning catching up on email)
<seb128> robert_ancell: no, jaunty is pretty frozen now so it's mainly keeping up with coming bugs and scheduling some stable updates for fixing extra bugs in jaunty
<mok0> ogra, no, it's gone from jaunty
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ dpkg -S /etc/X11/rgb.txt
<ogra> x11-common: /etc/X11/rgb.txt
<robert_ancell> seb128: yeah, too late for gcalctool update :)  Nothing too major in 5.26.1 though
<mok0> ogra, but why??
<seb128> robert_ancell: right, I see that you cleaned the gcalctool bugs today ;-)
<robert_ancell> seb128: I had a go at some of the rhythmbox ones.  Next week I want to work on a plan on how to tackle compiz
<robert_ancell> seb128: I think it is going to need some ruthless bug management to make it more manageable
<robert_ancell> seb128: anyway, I'm finished for the day, any requests for tomorrow?
<mok0> ogra, what version? I have  x11-common     1:7.4~5ubuntu1
<ogra> 1:7.4~5ubuntu18
<mok0> orga, that's just weird. I have the same version as you
<mok0> dpkg -S /etc/X11/rgb.txt
<ogra> well, the file is here
<mok0> dpkg: /etc/X11/rgb.txt not found.
<mok0> ogra, what arch?
<ogra> i386
<mok0> ogra, ah, I have amd64
<ogra> intresting
<ogra> i dont see the file on ARM
<geofft> ogra, I bet you upgraded from an older release?
<ogra> geofft, doesnt matter, dpkg knows the file
<ogra> so it is in the package
<ogra> but i can confirm its not on the armel RC image either
<geofft> ogra, if I understand how this works... dpkg knows about it because it's a conffile
<geofft> and if you ever purge x11-common, it needs to go away.
<geofft> that file isn't installed any more, but it sticks around
<mok0> geofft: It's on my system too
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~$ dpkg -c /var/cache/apt/archives/x11-common_1%3a7.4~5ubuntu18_all.deb |grep rgb
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~$
<ogra> right, its not in the package
<ogra> tjaalton, ^^^^
<geofft> I have 1:7.4~5ubuntu3, and don't have the file (this is a fresh install)
<tjaalton> bug 300935
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 300935 in xorg "missing "/etc/X11/rgb.txt" file and broken link to it" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/300935
<mok0> geofft: p.u.c tells you that the file is gone after intrepid
<mok0> tjaalton: I was investigating the FTBFS of sng (last comment)
<mok0> Somewhere in changelog it says that rgb.txt is obsolete :-)
<tjaalton> it is, to the server
<cjwatson> upgrades don't necessarily remove obsolete conffiles
<mok0> tjaalton: heh
<cjwatson> maintainer scripts typically have to frob that by hand (unfortunately)
<tjaalton> some clients seem to want it still
<mok0> tjaalton: indeed
<ogra> tjaalton, yeah, i agree thats unfortunate, legacy apps you build from source might rely on its availablity as well
<mok0> Is there a problem putting it back?
<tjaalton> mok0: not really
<mok0> Perhaps for karmic the file could go in a "legacy-files" package
<tjaalton> nah, debian added it back
<tjaalton> recently
<mok0> ah
<cjwatson> moving conffiles between packages is just as painful as removing them, anyway
 * ogra thinks glade uses rgb.txt extensively if you use color names for widgets
<mok0> tjaalton: are you in a position to push this through?
<tjaalton> when will the archive get frozen for release?
<ogra> today
<tjaalton> mok0: yes
<tjaalton> ogra: what time :)
<cjwatson> tjaalton: please don't make any decisions on that basis
<tjaalton> mok0: well, as in get it ready, but the release manager would have to accept it
<cjwatson> tjaalton: if you have a bug fix, get it into the queue ASAP and we'll discuss it
<mok0> tjaalton: ok
<cjwatson> but we're already in the process of doing hopefully-final CD builds
<tjaalton> cjwatson: I was just thinking that would it be too late 9h from now
<cjwatson> so this has to be pretty critical
<mok0> If it's fixed, it will solve to FTBFS's
<mok0> s/to/some/
<cjwatson> it's a bit late for that
<cjwatson> I'm more worried about application breakage, but we could fix that in an SRU too
<cjwatson> tjaalton: it's already "too late" in the sense that we have to delay preparation for any fix
<tjaalton> it's pretty trivial to do this one, so I'll prepare it
<tjaalton> would un-break a couple of X clients..
<cjwatson> tjaalton: that doesn't necessarily mean it's "too late" in the sense of impossible, but it has to be critical
<cjwatson> tjaalton: if that's all it is, it should be an SRU, I think
<tjaalton> cjwatson: ok, let's do it that way then
<mok0> rgb.txt has been in X11 for as long as I remember.
<mok0> Apparently it will remain in the file system if you do an upgrade
<mok0> So not all installations will break
<slangasek> pitti: 277589 is *not* fixed; please leave the bug state as-is until we have a chance to discuss it
<pitti> slangasek: oh, ok
<ogra> slangasek, does http://paste.ubuntu.com/154599/ suit you better (though note that the file is newly created anyway by "cat <<EOF > $MODFILE_26" so i dont think the moving is actually needed)
<slangasek> ogra: given that we're still hammering out a correct solution three days before release, I don't think this change belongs in final
<ogra> os SRU ?
<ogra> *so
<slangasek> yes, please
<ogra> ok
<liw> wait, what? it's only three days until release? I'd better get working on my kernel rewrite in Python, then
<slangasek> (I'm honestly not sure it warrants an SRU either, but that's better than shoving it through the freeze right now)
<ogra> right
<ogra> my prob is that i cant test anything if it actually works even if the packaging is right ...
<ogra> i dont own any IR devices at all
<ogra> liw, huh ? i thought we went for mono
<liw> ogra, nah, turns out mono begins with m, and microsoft has a trademark on all names beginning with an m
<ogra> ahh and i thought they only owned the patent for the single speaker sound output here
<cjwatson> evand: could you look at bug 363661?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 363661 in casper "USB startup disk is corrupt afer using restart to end live-session in daily build of Jaunty" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/363661
<evand> gah, will do
<emgent> uhmm.
<emgent> it`s possible make an udev hack for manage the kernel module product keys and id ?
<emgent> for example A module have: { USB_DEVICE(0x0c88, 0x17da) },
<emgent> it`s possible make an alias from it to { USB_DEVICE(0x19d2, 0x0001) }, ?
<soren> emgent: You can make a simple modialias to make it load, but that doesn't mean that the module will attempt to handle the given device.
<soren> emgent: If you want to force it to do that, you can poke the relevant vendor/device ID's in the the module's new_id file under /sys
<soren> emgent: (found under /sys/bus/{usb,pci,isa,virtio,whatever}/drivers/<name of the driver as known by the kernel>/new_id)
<emgent> ok thanks
<emgent> looking
<hyperair> has anyone heard of the corrupted /home partitions when suspending with jaunty with /home on a SD card?
<amitk> hyperair: are you running ext4?
<hyperair> amitk: no i am not.
<hyperair> amitk: but the problem is not ext4, it's the sd card.
<hyperair> amitk: there isn't a single filesystem that will survive attempting to suspend with a USB stick or SD card mounted as /home
<soren> hyperair: That really depends.
<hyperair> soren: ?
<hyperair> really?
<soren> hyperair: The suspend magic could sync and remount read-only, etc., etc.
<soren> Resuming again is the difficult part.
<hyperair> soren: that's bound to fail.
<soren> What is?
<hyperair> remount ro
<soren> hyperair: because?
<hyperair> you cannot remount ro any filesystem as long as there are rw filehandles open
<hyperair> it'll fail.
<hyperair> remount rw while resuming is no big deal
<hyperair> that's almost bound to succeed, as long as the filesystem isn't already crapped up
<soren> Except the block devices is likely to have disappeared in between.
<soren> ..so it's a new block device that is turning up and needs to be mounted in place of the old one.
<hyperair> right.
<hyperair> you're right.
<hyperair> that's very problematic.
<hyperair> but the safe way would be to just disable it completely
<hyperair> can't we do that for jaunty?
<soren> "it"?
<soren> suspend/resume?
<hyperair> suspending for people with SD cards
<hyperair> yes
<hyperair> suspend and hibernate
<hyperair> disable both of them if you have a SD card mounted as /home
<hyperair> i think /media stuff are automatically dismounted
<hyperair> but then again i'm not sure
<soren> Dunno.
<amitk> hyperair: aah, you need to enable usb persist if your usb device contains /
<ogra> can someone let usb-imagewriter out of unapproved (was acked by StevenK (mobile universe RM))
<hyperair> amitk: usb persist? is that available in the current jaunty kernel?
<amitk> hyperair: it should be. It is a file in /sys corresponding to your usb device
<hyperair> ah!
<hyperair> i see
<ogra> amitk, well, depends how his SD is attached :)
<hyperair> amitk: whichi file though?
<ogra> does usb persistence apply to native MMC devices that are not attached through USB ?
<amitk> hyperair: find /sys -name persist
<hyperair> amitk: i don't have a jaunty system. acn you do that please?
<amitk> ogra: he did say his SD was attached via USB
<ogra> hyperair, he doesnt have your devices :)
<hyperair> ogra: it isn't my device.
<amitk> hyperair: it is machine-dependent :)
<hyperair> amitk: just stick a random USB in. i'd like to see what the naming convention is like
<amitk> ./devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.3/usb4/4-2/power/persist
<amitk> ./devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb5/5-6/5-6.4/power/persist
<amitk> ./devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb5/5-6/5-6.1/5-6.1.1/power/persist
<amitk> ./devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb5/5-6/5-6.1/5-6.1.3/power/persist
<amitk> ./devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb5/5-6/5-6.2/power/persist
<hyperair> ogra: it isn't my system failing. it's on bug #342096
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 342096 in pm-utils "SD Card containing /home corrupted on resume" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/342096
<hyperair> i think it's a very serious issue.
<ogra> hyperair, yes, but if amitk runs the find that wont help the user
<ogra> it needs to be run on exactly the system that has the prob
<ogra> thats what i pointed out
<hyperair> ogra: i _still_ want to know what the output looks like.
<hyperair> ogra: because it needs to be turned on for all USB devices.
<Chipzz> hyperair: that has always annoyed me. sometimes I just want to remount something ro, and let whatever app that has rw handles and can't deal with them becoming ro just crash and burn
<amitk> hyperair: no, it shouldn't be turned on by default.
<Chipzz> preferable in big flames
<hyperair> Chipzz: yeah i wish i could do that too.
<ogra> hyperair, well, that would be a bad idea
<hyperair> amitk: why not
<hyperair> ogra: why?
<amitk> only bad HW has their filesystem hanging off a USB
<geofft> hyperair: are you asking for basically bug 197166?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 197166 in linux "[hardy] kernel should have usb persist mode built in" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/197166
<geofft> or this LKML post? http://lkml.indiana.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0803.1/0800.html
<geofft> signed off by Greg K-H, even. so it can't be such a horrible idea. :)
<ogra> it can drain your battery depending on your USB controller for example ...
<leshaste> hi seb128 .. it turns out that gdm has had a patch for my problem for a while.. what is the process to get it applied for hardy?
<zul> dholbach: looks ok to me
<hyperair> ogra: i see. so basically it doesn't power down the usb at all?
<amitk> geofft: note the caveat
<ogra> hyperair, *some* controllers dont
<ogra> some do
<amitk> it will be reverted once userspace becomes intelligent
<hyperair> ogra: okayy so it's buggy.
<ogra> the HW is
<hyperair> hmm
<hyperair> so we need to just turn on the SD card device's persist
<amitk> hyperair: try it
<ogra> and leaving it as a manual option gives you the possibility to decide on a case by case basis
<hyperair> amitk: don't have a machine i can test on.
<amitk> although I can't see what is in /home that should mess up suspend
<leshaste> hi
<hyperair> amitk: eh wait. i have a SD card reader... but it's so unreliable i don't use it.
<leshaste> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545203 says that crashing bug fix was applied for gdm after the current hardy version
<hyperair> amitk: and i don't have any remaining SD cards.
<ubottu> Gnome bug 545203 in gio "gfile.c: argument is different type." [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<leshaste> is that the sort of thing that can be patched now?
<hyperair> amitk: most systems suspend with a desktop environment running. i can't imagine the desktop environment not having any read/write handles
<ogra> amitk, looking at the logs that doesnt look like an SD attached through usb
<ogra> they usually get sdX device names because the usb reader converts them to usb disks
 * amitk nods
<hyperair> you mean SD reader
<ogra> that has a /dev/mmcblkX naming
<ogra> looks like natively attached
<hyperair> ah yes it does
<hyperair> on my system, once an SD card is ejected, the module needs to be reloaded in order for it to detect a new SD card.
<ogra> ouch
<ogra> did you file a bug ?
<hyperair> mmhm
<hyperair> no i didn't
<ogra> you should :)
<hyperair> i should have, but now i no longer have a SD card to test.
<ogra> get one, SD is the future ;)
<hyperair> it's expensive.
<hyperair> i like my hard disk
<hyperair> it stores 160GB.
<ogra> its cheaper than the same amount of storage on CDRW nowadays i think
<liw> ogra, really?
<ogra> well
<hyperair> then CDRWs are outdated
<hyperair> i use usb sticks.
<hyperair> hah
<hyperair> they're dirt cheap compared to SD cards
<hyperair> and don't require a reader.
<hyperair> just a USB port
<ogra> a 2G Sd costs me 2.50â¬ at my discounter
<ogra> thats 3CDs
<hyperair> ...what?
<hyperair> that's cheap O_o
<hyperair> at least the number's small
<hyperair> let me convert that..
<hyperair> hmm
<ogra> 4G is around 8â¬
<hyperair> euro to MYR..
<ogra> and prices are dropping constantly
<hyperair> RM11.
<hyperair> interesting.
<directhex> bah, whose bright idea was to have parties on a _thursday_?
<hyperair> and RM37
<ogra> i started using SD over CD a while ago alrteady
<ogra> *already
<hyperair> ogra: i've got multiple USB sticks. none of them cost a cent.
<hyperair> ogra: each of them are 2GB.
<directhex> parties at bars on a work night @_@
<ogra> well, you cant be cheaper than zero indeed :)
<hyperair> ogra: ;)
<hyperair> i think it's around RM20 for one here.
<hyperair> which amounts to...
<liw> ogra, the cheapest I can find is about 2 e/gig for SDHC, 0.8 e/gig for CD-R
<hyperair> 20/4.7
<ogra> directhex, quick, introduce a bug that makes us delay the release by one day :P
<directhex> hyperair, i don't think i've ever paid for a flash drive. i have lots though...
<hyperair> directhex: yeah same.
<directhex> hyperair, that said, my microsoft one broke & died :(
<hyperair> directhex: good riddance
<directhex> ogra, tempting.....
<ogra> liw, hmm, finnish taxes ?
<liw> ogra, and 0.3 e/gig for DVD+R
<hyperair> directhex: i've got one sandisk (which died) and two pendrives)
<directhex> bloo way!
<liw> ogra, possibly, we have a cassette tax for empty media, which might not apply to SDHC though
<ogra> liw, ok, i'll take that back for finland then :)
<liw> ogra, still, it's much closer than I thought, and also I didn't look very hard for the best deals
<ogra> i know at my HW discounter around the corner its cheaper ... they even started selling SDs with movies on them
<liw> if I was buying optical media anymore, I wouldn't buy them in Finland anyway
<ogra> as added value
<dholbach> zul: are you going to upload?
<zul> sure ill do it right now
<dholbach> super, thanks zul
<slangasek> TheMuso: for future reference, please don't comment out code in debdiffs, particularly if you're looking for a freeze exception; the removals should already tell us everything we need to know, and having code within a comment just makes the diff longer to review
<seb128> leshaste: which one?
<ScottK> ogra: Are you around?  I have a question about your usb-imagewriter upload.
<ScottK> Nevermind.  I see StevenK already reviewed it.
<ScottK> ogra: Accepted.
<lool> stgraber: Did you manage to update the ISO tracker to list the proper armel and +UNR - UMPC?
<lool> stgraber: I'd really like this to be fixed for final
<mantiena-baltix> hi cjwatson
<mantiena-baltix> cjwatson , evand: I have one question about ubiquity translations - why you didn't updated translations in latest ubiquity uploads (1.12.11 and 1.12.12) ?
<mantiena-baltix> I've tested jaunty's release candidate and noticed, that installer is almost not translated in lithuanian language :(
<cjwatson> the non-language-pack translation freeze was before 1.12.10; any translation updates after that were always going to be best-effort.
<mantiena-baltix> So, I've fixed this bug 3 days ago, but my work still isn't included in latest ubiquity packages :(
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 3 in rosetta "Custom information for each translation team" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/3
<cjwatson> sorry, but you were too late per the release schedule; your work will be included next time round ...
<cjwatson> (the actual answer is likely to be that Evan was in a rush)
<mantiena-baltix> cjwatson: I forgot, that ubiquity's translations aren't included into language-packs :(
<mantiena-baltix> cjwatson , evand: are there any chances to update ubiquity's translations before jaunty release ?
<cjwatson> I doubt it, sorry. We've already started rolling final images.
<zul_> dholbach: done
<dholbach> zul_: rock on!
<mantiena-baltix> cjwatson: maybe you can tell me how to update translations from launchpad for my personal ubiquity package ?
<cjwatson> basically just download them and msgmerge them into debian/po/lt.po
<mantiena-baltix> cjwatson: ok, thanks for help
<cjwatson> I do have scripts to do it, but for a single language it boils down to msgmerge -q -N /path/to/new/lt.po debian/po/templates.pot | msgmerge -q -N - debian/po/lt.po > debian/po/lt.po.new
<cjwatson> with some extra faffing about to deal with non-UTF-8 .po files (doesn't apply to lt.po) and removing obsolete translations (only necessary for tidying up)
<cjwatson> mantiena-baltix: ^-
<mantiena-baltix> cjwatson: thank you very much - Lithuanians will be happy to have a posibility to use installer in native lang :)
<cjwatson> next time please try to test sufficiently before the translations freeze that there's time to get your translation in; I really do want to have the installer effectively translated as much as possible, but can only do that if translators work in a timely fashion
<mantiena-baltix> cjwatson: I understand, that this is our translation team problem - I simply forgot, that ubiquity's strings will be changed so much in Jaunty - there was no problem in Hardy...
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, When I use debootstrap in Jaunty and pass --include=apt, the debootstrap process doesn't seem to complete entirely (ie. apt, among other things it seems, isn't installed) but gives no errors. This doesn't occur with 1.0.8 from Hardy. I assume this is a bug but I noticed that some warnings were added about installing packages with --include that have pre-depends. Although apt doesn't appear to have any pre-depends, I
<cody-somerville> wanted to ensure I understood the warning correctly.
<stgraber> lool: nag IS
<stgraber> lool: I sent the update on Thursday or Wednesday
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: can I see the debootstrap log, please? should be debootstrap.log in the created filesystem somewhere
<lool> stgraber: Ok thanks, what's the RT #?
<stgraber> lool: no idea, it hasn't been triaged yet so doesn't appear on rt.ubuntu.com yet
<lool> stgraber: You should have gotten an ack no matter what, no?
<slangasek> stgraber: so you still don't have direct access to the DB?
<stgraber> slangasek: no, there should be a ticket for that too ...
<slangasek> hmm, ok
<stgraber> lool: nope, maybe I don't have enough rights, I'm using the ubuntu/ubuntu account
<slangasek> stgraber: you didn't just file the ticket by email?
<stgraber> slangasek: I did but you only get a mail back when it's been fixed
<stgraber> no ack or anything
<slangasek> no, you should get an email back as soon as the ticket is open
<cjwatson> you should also get a mail for any activity on the ticket - unless rt.ubuntu.com is configured radically differently from the internal one
<stgraber> ok, so that part doesn't work
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, there doesn't appear to be any debootstrap.log file
<lool> mvo: are we leaving update-notifier with level DEBUG logs by default in jaunty as accident, or is this the expected behaviro?
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: what debootstrap command line exactly can I use to reproduce this, then?
<mvo> lool: meh, that sounds like a accident, let me check
<cjwatson> (actually, it might be /var/log/bootstrap.log)
<lool> mvo: Spotted in .xsession-errors, I get things like "/usr/lib/update-notifier/apt-check returned 0 (security: 0)"
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, ah! I was looking for debootstrap.log
<lool> gnome-panel is logging DEBUG too
<mvo> lool: its just very few messages there, I fix it in bzr, its probably actually a good thing (if there are problems with auto-launch)
<lool> mvo: Just wanted to make sure it was no accident, great if it's useful :)
<mvo> lool: its sort of a accident still, so thanks for letting me know :)
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, Ah, I see the problem. I'm using a custom debootstrap script and it looks like it needs to be updated to use repeatn instead of repeat.
<cjwatson> that would do it
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, I'm surprised that debootstrap didn't give any indication of an error though
<verwilst> how can you make sure that the versions of one repository always get priority?
<verwilst> even if a newer version is available in another repo?
<verwilst> with pinning probably
<cjwatson> debootstrap's error handling is not always quite ideal
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, Should I file a bug or is that a known issue?
<cjwatson> it's known
<cjwatson> e.g. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=472704
<ubottu> Debian bug 472704 in debootstrap "Failure while configuring base packages -- But why?" [Normal,Open]
<wgrant> mvo: The release-upgrader seems to accept a source as official even if it is only for multiverse... users of one big unofficial Australian ISP mirror (which doesn't mirror multiverse) mostly have a multiverse-only au.a.u.c line in sources.list. On upgrade to Jaunty, they are left with just multiverse sources uncommented. Fixable?
<mvo> wgrant: hm, could I get a main.log of a upgrade like this please? it should already notice that its missing key packages and do somehting about it
<wgrant> mvo: This was an upgrade by CD.
<mvo> wgrant: I can easiyl add the unofficial mirror to the known mirror lists
<wgrant> So it would have had the critical packages.
<mvo> wgrant: oh, I see
<wgrant> mvo: Actually, this mirror was renamed recently, so that might do it.
<mvo> wgrant: if you mail/msg me the name (or main.log) I add it
<wgrant> mvo: http://mirror.files.bigpond.com/ubuntu
<mvo> thanks
<mvo> wgrant: added
<wgrant> mvo: This will still hit CD upgrades with other mirrors, though... Could there be a bit more of a check to make sure main is always left enabled?
<wgrant> I can't see a situation in which leaving only multiverse and the CD enabled would be right.
<wgrant> mvo: Thanks.
<mvo> wgrant: I think it needs to become more clever about unofficial mirrors
<mvo> wgrant: yes, its hard to image why someone would want multiverse and CD but nothing else :)
<wgrant> mvo: Maybe it could even check if they are unofficial but mirror the real archive... that would be very nice.
 * ScottK just got his first mail from a Debian person complaining I hadn't sent a useful Ubuntu change back to them.
<ScottK> Ironically, I've still got the mail from back in December when we discussed it ...
<mvo> ScottK: happend to me a while ago too, a blog post complaining about changes that I sent back ~3 months before
<ScottK> I still get confused between all the changes we do are crap and worthless and how come you didn't give me your change.
<broonie> Well, it all comes back to a general "keep in touch" - if you're off-base then communication could perhaps lead to a better solution; if it's a good fix it's nice to know about it.
<LaserJock> yeah, communication is a toughest part of working with Debian for me
<slangasek> I think it more comes down to "perception trumps reality", and some (but certainly not all) maintainers still being predisposed to believing ill of Ubuntu contributors
<LaserJock> I mostly get either no replies, flames, or the occasional "you wanna maintain it in Debian?"
<broonie> LaserJock: That sounds like you're working on packages that are effectively unmaintained in Debian...
<LaserJock> broonie: usually yes
<LaserJock> which makes the whole "contribute back" thing a bit frustrating
<cjwatson> I've had the same experience as ScottK and mvo; a vicious flame about not having sent back a change I'd sent back a couple of weeks previously and had a discussion about
<cjwatson> fortunately I got an apology after clearing it up, but a slightly less knee-jerk reaction would have been nice
<LaserJock> cjwatson: how did they find out about the change?
<ScottK> The fun part about today's was they quoted the CoC bit about collaboration at me too.
<StevenK> ScottK: "The CoC is not a stick to beat people with, kthxbye"
<ScottK> That too
<cjwatson> LaserJock: oh, actually I misspoke, it was a vicious flame about using a different fix from that implemented by the Debian maintainer; the latter was implemented in response to my bug report, and I'd acknowledged the comment
<cjwatson> people do sometimes respond to mails sent by patches.ubuntu.com though
<LaserJock> yeah
<StevenK> cjwatson: Because how dare we do that? :-(
<LaserJock> I wondered it if it was mostly from the PTS links to patches (which can look awfully ugly at times) and BTS bugs
<cjwatson> StevenK: in this case the Debian fix was superior but I'd already acknowledged that and said we'd sync with it next time we were doing an upload anyway
<lool> stgraber: Your changes were merged (wee!) however the netboots don't appear to have been split in subarches
<lool> can't really say whether desktop armel, mid, and unr are all in place yet, will check when these are built
<slangasek> weren't those already in place?
<lool> slangasek: UNR has a new top level now; desktop armel was under Ubuntu I think
<broonie> LaserJock: I'd expect people to be getting this stuff from the PTS, yes.
<ogra> lool, i dont see desktop armel yet
<lool> me neither
<lool> ogra: well it was built a couple of times today
<lool> Hmm no, one time; it's another image which was
<ogra> right
<lool> but it's on cdimage; I'm grabbing it for now and am waiting until it's on the tracker to test it
<slangasek> the 20090420 image isn't going to be final
<slangasek> so test it if appropriate, but I'll be posting 20090420.1 to the tracker
<lool> Okay
<lool> ogra: You can start testing the netboots though, these wont move I guess
<slangasek> right
<lool> NCommander: Do you think you could test the babbage netboot?  I don't want to setup a tftp server, and http was failing for me
<tkamppeter> pitti, hi
<slangasek> lool, ogra: there, separate netboot arm tracker entries
<ogra> slangasek, cute ... now the same for desktop please ;)
<slangasek> hrm?
<ogra> no armel desktop entry
<ogra> for the babbage image
<xq> Does anyone have a second to answer a slightly off topic question about why the main python interpret in Ubuntu does not link with libpython (like in some other distros)?
<slangasek> because it's not built yet
<ogra> oh
<ogra> what did i download then ?
 * ogra checks
<slangasek> an image that's not a candidate :)
<ogra> ah, it only lists 20.1
<ogra> i got me 20
<pitti> hello tkamppeter
<stefanlsd> soren: do you know if its possible to run ubuntu as xen guest on a sles host?
<soren> stefanlsd: Sure.
<tkamppeter> pitti, can you have a look at bug 363522? Changes in HPLIP 3.9.2 made the automatic call of hp-plugin for firmware download by system-config-printer non-functional. I have applied a simple patch to fix it. SRU or Jaunty upload?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 363522 in cups "HP LaserJet P1005 unusable in 8.04 and 9.04" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/363522
<pitti> tkamppeter: I saw the bug subscription, no need to ping me :)
<pitti> tkamppeter: anyway, please sub ubuntu-sru and prepare this for a SRU
<pitti> tkamppeter: jaunty images are ready, I'm afraid there's no time any more
<NCommander> lool, sure, but not until later today
<tkamppeter> pitti, OK
<tkamppeter> pitti, is it already possible to upload into jaunty-proposed?
<pitti> tkamppeter: yes, it is
 * ogra would appreciate if people testing .img builds from usb media could use usb-imagewriter and report issues if there are any
<ogra> (we promote it in the mobile install notes)
<ScottK> And we just uploaded a new version ....
<ogra> which fixed a bug :)
<pitti> ogra: I'll try that then; my previous attempt with dd doesn't boot at all
<pitti> ogra: does this something significantly different to dd?
<ogra> pitti, great, thanks
<ogra> no, its just a frontend to dd
<ogra> it calls dd if=<> of=<> bs=1024
<ogra> and just fills the if/of args
<pitti> hmm
<pitti> well, then "it doesn't boot"
<pitti> it boots in kvm, but there the graphics is corrupted
<ogra> weird
 * pitti tries again
<ogra> the .img should have a syslinux mbr in it
<ogra> (or a redboot partition if you use armel)
<pitti> no, the standard i386 image
<ogra> right, that uses syslinux
<pitti> ogra: btw, how come that the UNR image is so much bigger than the standard ubuntu one?
<ogra> pitti, langpacks, ship seed ...
<ogra> the .img's are just using the squashfs from the std image but wrap a vfat partition around that
<ogra> we keep a bit of a buffer if people want to add stuff and re-roll the squashfs ... you can do that easier if there is spare space in the vfat
<leshaste> seb128, sorry are you still here?
<ogra> so the bigger size is the sum of these three
<seb128> leshaste: yes
<leshaste> seb128, were you asking which version of gdm the patch was applied to?
<seb128> leshaste: what patch are you speaking about?
<ogra> pitti, we actually enjoy the luxury that we are not bound to CD media size and make shameless use of that fact ;)
<leshaste> seb128, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=115443&action=view
<leshaste> from http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=545203
<ubottu> Gnome bug 545203 in gio "gfile.c: argument is different type." [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<leshaste> which is the patch for the bug we discussed earlier
<seb128> leshaste: that's a glib change and not a gdm one and is in the intrepid and jaunty versions
<leshaste> seb128, ah right sorry... so is there any chance it would be applied for hardy? Maybe in backports?
<leshaste> seb128, it does stop me running gdmsetup completely
<tkamppeter> pitti, SRU for s-c-p uploaded to jaunty-proposed.
<seb128> leshaste: if you have a bug convincing that it's worth a sru, there has been no complain about that in a year before today so it's not really an annoyance for hardy users apparently
<leshaste> seb128, sorry I don't understand.. I have to convince someone called sru?
 * leshaste finds his own ignorance exhausting :)
<seb128> leshaste: no, you open a bug and you describe your issue on it and try to be convincing that we should do a stable update (sru)
<leshaste> seb128, got you.. thanks
<seb128> leshaste: I doubt we will though since it seems to happen in really corner cases and there is no easy testcase nor a lot of request for that change
<leshaste> seb128, that makes sense although I don't understand what makes my setup a corner case.. i.e. have I configured it in some weird way?
<leshaste> It looks pretty standard to me
<leshaste> if I could change my setup to fix it that would be a good workaround
<leshaste> currently I can't run gdmsetup at all
<seb128> leshaste: dunno what trigger the crash for you but you are the first to run into it, we would have noticed if that was crashing for other people too
<leshaste> seb128, the fact they fixed the bug before me does imply that someone else noticed it
<leshaste> but I take your general point
<seb128> leshaste: you can still edit gdm.conf or gdm.conf-custom using a test editor
<leshaste> true
<seb128> leshaste: the upstream bug suggested they found the issue by looking at compiler warnings and not because somebody had a crash though
<leshaste> true..
<leshaste> I'll report it and see what happens.. it's a very small patch :)
<leshaste> and thanks for spending the time to talk/think about it
<leshaste> this sort of interaction is what makes open source software special
<leshaste> it's hard to find M$ developers on IRC :)
<seb128> you're welcome
<stefanlsd> soren: can it do para or only full virt. I got it working with the alternate cd and full virt
<soren> stefanlsd: Paravirt should be fine.
<soren> stefanlsd: Just use the -server kernel.
<stefanlsd> soren: thanks - how would i choose the -server kernel?   additonal options i pass to xen?
<soren> stefanlsd: Well, you do it in the exact same way as you'd otherwise choose a kernel with Xen.
<soren> stefanlsd: Depends on how you usually manage your Xen guests.
<stefanlsd> soren: using virt-manager. and that uses kernel="/usr/lib/xen/boot/hvmloader"
<stefanlsd> soren: this may all be sles weirdness
<soren> stefanlsd: You can just use whatever kernel you're used. It's likely to just work, really.
<hareldvd> Here is the thing. When my laptop boots network is not yet configured since NM didnÂ´t start it yet. Samba however tries to start since it is in S20 on rc2-5.d but it fails immediately because no network is configured yet. What is the official solution for such a conflict?
<stefanlsd> soren: ok. thanks. will give it a try :)
<stefanlsd> soren: i copied vmlinuz-2.6.24-24-server and i get Error: (2, 'Invalid kernel', 'elf_init: not an ELF binary\n')
<soren> stefanlsd: Perhaps you need to ungzip it.
<pitti> ogra: is that known? bug 364195
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364195 in usb-imagewriter "Error dialog at the end: "The dd porcess ended with an error"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364195
<ogra> pitti, hmm, i dont think there is code that writes logs yet
<jdong> kees: for entertainment purposes I tried the udev exploit on a SELinux Lenny box under user staff_u: http://paste.ubuntu.com/154808/
<jdong> kees: none of the SELinux restricted user types allow the netlink socket type that's needed to send the exploits
<ogra> pitti, apart from what you have in the details win
<pitti> ogra: there was nothing, just the dd progress, and the single error line without specifics
<pitti> I closed it, since it told me about the log file
<pitti> anyway, trying to boot it
<jdong> kees: to add insult to injury, refpolicy's udev_t datatype does not allow access to write the payload to a place that a user can LD_PRELOAD anyway
<jcole> how do set up my own launchpad ppa repo?
<cprov> jcole: https://help.launchpad.net/Packaging/PPA
<jcole> cprov: thanks!
<cprov> jcole: np, ask for help on #launchpad if you have any problem.
<kees> jdong: ah-ha, excellent.
<jdong> kees: yeah I just tried again with an unconfined user and udev confined; still the problem is udev cannot write to anywhere useful to put the payload
<jdong> and it sure generates a hell of a lot of audit noise
<kees> heh
<ebroder> kees: Do you know when the openafs security patch is going to go out? Is there anything else I can do to help?
<kees> ebroder: for which release?  I think mdeslaur was handling stables last week?  I will check with him.
<ogra> pitti, does it boot ?
<ebroder> kees: I saw some failed builds for weird arches for both Dapper and Hardy, I think. Dapper, Hardy, and Intrepid all need to be patched
<mdeslaur> ebroder: they're coming out today
<ebroder> mdeslaur: Oh, awesome. Thanks :)
<ogra> lool, hmm
<pitti> ogra: no, I just get "boot error"
<ogra> the same as with dd i assume
<pitti> right :(
<ogra> weird
<ogra> pitti, any special security stuff you played with that could prevent dd from DTRT ?
<ogra> (i know you do such stuff :) )
<pitti> ogra: no, it was a standard FAT32 formatted Ubuntu wubi installer before (from usb-creator)
<ogra> did you try to zero it with dd first ?
<ogra> though it should overwrite everything anyway
<pitti> ogra: I didn't zero it; bug updated for some more info
<pitti> ogra: I can try to zero it again, hang on
<pitti> (although that would again be an usb-creator problem)
<pitti> also, if "dd < image" does not work, how would "dd < /dev/zero"?
<ogra> how do you dd exactly ?
<pitti> right now? sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=1M
<ogra> did you try to omit the bs ?
<pitti> and back then, with s_/dev/zero_download/ubuntu/jaunty-netbook-remix-i386.img_
<pitti> ogra: yes, last time with the .img I didn't specify a bs
<pitti> (but it doesn't actually make much of a difference)
<ogra> adding bs might use less ram
<ogra> but thats all
<ogra> ogra@osiris:~/Devel/imagewriter/intrepid/usb-imagewriter-0.1.3$ file /var/build/images/jaunty-netbook-remix-i386.img
<ogra> /var/build/images/jaunty-netbook-remix-i386.img: x86 boot sector
<ogra> pitti, what does file report for you ?
<pitti> $ file download/ubuntu/jaunty-netbook-remix-i386.img
<pitti> download/ubuntu/jaunty-netbook-remix-i386.img: x86 boot sector
<ogra> looks ok
<ogra> its either an issue with your usb key, your usb port or the port on the netbook you test with i'd guess
<ogra> given the nonzero exit in usb-imagewriter i would assume one of the former two
<ogra> can you try with another usb key ?
<pitti> ogra: as I said, I have used this key dozens of times to boot/install standard ubuntu
<ogra> strange
<pitti> unfortunately my big usb key can't be trashed right now, and my ancient one is too small (64 MB)
<pitti> ok, it's zeroed; trying to write again
<ogra> i wish i could send you one as mail attachment :)
<ogra> i have tons
<lool> ogra: hmm?
<ogra> lool, sorry, ignore me ... i thought i had tested the netinstall already (dates to april 17th) ... but i was wrong
<lool> Bah I don't see any entry for Ubuntu Desktop armel
<lool> slangasek: is this the final spin for armel?
<lool> (.1)
<pitti> ogra: oh, now I know
<ogra> pitti, tell me, i'm curious
<pitti> ogra: bug updated
<pitti> plz give this .img some diet :)
<ogra> hmm, it was supposed to fit on 1G
<pitti> that would be nice
<ogra> lool, ^^^^
<ogra> lool, UNR grew beyond 1G
<lool> Addition of standard^
<lool> Let's fix the instructions quickly
<ogra> yes, we should size down the buffer space a bit
<ebroder> Anyone from backporters willing to ack bug #216761?
<ogra> iirc we still leave 20M spare ... lets make that 10
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 216761 in xen-3.3 "[hardy-backports] errors in xendomains init script" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/216761
<lool> 1006M   ubuntu-netbook-remix/daily-live/current/jaunty-netbook-remix-i386.img
<lool> That's what I see
<pitti> right, that's what I have, too
<lool> That's less than 1GB!  :)
<pitti> that fails with an 1 GB stick
<pitti> lool: no, it's not
<pitti> it's less than 1 GiB
<lool> Yeah well you understood me
<pitti> this is where G vs. Gi matters :)
<pitti> unfortunately ls still displays MiB/GiB instead of MB/GB
<ogra> lool, lest just strip off 10M
<hyperair> what's wrong with MiB?
<ogra> so it fits in 1G
<pitti> hyperair: just about every hw manufacturer uses MB/GB (power of ten, not power of two)
<hyperair> ah right.
<liw> I've found that a stick that advertises itself as x gigabytes might be anywhere between 3.8 to 4.2 gigabytes (using the base-10 definition of gigabyte for everything)
<lool> ogra: I'm not sure
<liw> er, make that 4 gigabytes, not x
<liw> I tried to move data from a 4 gig usb stick to another 4 gig usb stick, and whoops, it wouldn't fit :(
<lool> ogra: Where's the knob for the remaining free space?  in livecd-rootfs or in debian-cd?
<ogra> lool, well, its 6M oversized ... we should have enough buffer to cut that off
<lool> Hmm debian-cd I guess
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> it used to be in build-vfat-img
 * pitti leaves the prefix flamewar to others and toddles off to Taekwondo; cu tomorrow!
<ogra> but that got merged
<lool> ogra: Seems to still be there
<lool> size=20
<ogra> make that 10
<lool> That's common to all vfat images
<lool> I want an ack from slangasek / cjwatson at least
<ogra> its just empty space
<lool> It's final rolling time, I'm not messing up with debian-cd without their ack :-)
<ogra> was just reserved for the possible modifications people want to do to the squashfs
<ogra> indeed
<ogra> no armel desktop on the isotracker :/
<lool> ogra: 19:26 < lool> Bah I don't see any entry for Ubuntu Desktop armel
<lool> ogra: I've poked them on -release
<ogra> good
<lool> ogra: Netboot was split!
<ogra> yes, i saw that when i looked before starting my slug install
<lool> stgraber: yeah!  now if we could get a desktop armel that would be nice  :)  (BTW "armel" is the arch name but the netboots are named "arm")
<stgraber> lool: well, I basiccally followed what I received by mail :)
<stgraber> lool: Ubuntu desktop armel is there, you just need a release manager to add it
<stgraber> lool: is a build already available ? if so what version number ? (I can add it)
<ogra> 20.1
<stgraber> k, 2s
<ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ports/daily-live/20090420.1/
<ogra> note its in the ports subdir
<stgraber> done
<ogra> yay
<stgraber> well, the download url isn't supported as we have a function to determine the URL and it's not port or armel aware
<ogra> yes, i noted that in the armel netinst images already
<lessshaste> hi
<stgraber> that'd require a code change, then a code review, then get it on production. not something we should do on release week
<ogra> but at least we have a place to report install feedback now :)
<stgraber> though having that in the DB may be easier, will probably do that for karmic (now that we have a new box and a separate DB, development should be easier)
<kees> Keybuk: we auto-send patches to Debian for Ubuntu deltas, but what about security updates?  How can we make that happen?
<Keybuk> we don't have MoM for -security
<kees> Keybuk: how can we set up something so that security patches show up in the Debian BTS automatically?
<Keybuk> kees: it's probably quite trivial actually
<kees> Keybuk: that's what I like to hear.  :)
<jdstrand> oh, that would be excellent :)
<stgraber> hmm, something is wrong with the desktop image for armel on the ISO tracker
<Keybuk> it might be as simple as adding a couple of lines
<defreng> good evening! Does somebody know where I can find more documentation for the new indicator-applet (espacially for the python API)? The examples unfortunately don't deal with email applications...
<ScottK> defreng: #ayatana is the upstream channel for that project.
<Keybuk> kees: when are you doing your next security upload?
<defreng> ScottK: thx - I'll look there
<kees> Keybuk: in a few minutes, when a LOSA is found.
<kees> Keybuk: openafs is getting published
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> let me know if you get an e-mail from MoM about it
<Keybuk> if you do, I can redirect that to debian
<Keybuk> (prob 2-3 hours after :p)
<ebroder> Keybuk: Shouldn't need to for this particular patch; Debian has the fix already
<Keybuk> not that e-mail specifically
<Keybuk> but the fire hose
<ebroder> *nods*
<kees> ebroder: right, but this is to make the patches available for things where this may not be true.
<Keybuk> do they need to go anywhere particular?
<kees> Keybuk: erm, I was assuming they would magically appear in the Debian BTS "ubuntu patches" section?
<jdstrand> I wonder if sending them to the Debian security team would be ok...
 * jdstrand is torn
<kees> jdstrand: they have said they want maintainers contacted, so since this is an existing method, it probably makes the most sense.
<jdstrand> kees: right, I meant like a 'CC'
<kees> ah-ha, interesting
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> so casey won't expire all of security now ;)
<Keybuk> kees: do you want the opposite direction?
<Keybuk> all patches from debian-security mailed somewhere?
<jdstrand> oh, I like that idea
<jdstrand> kees: what do you think of sending them to security@ubuntu.com?
<kees> hrm
<jdstrand> I think it could do wonders for universe patches
<kees> I'd rather they end up in LP, but the logic for that is non-trivial
<kees> okay, sure, let's do it.  I can always filter.
<jdstrand> kees: filter, and then have a mutt macro to add them to LP :P
<kees> :)
<kees> Keybuk: ultimately, we'll probably want the Ubuntu patches CC'd to the ubuntu-security-patch ml too
<Keybuk> it may or may not work
<Keybuk> hmm
<Keybuk> yeah it's definitely possible
<Keybuk> it's more changes than I thought
<Keybuk> at least 3 lines
<kees> hehe
<Keybuk> kees: ok, it'll make the second -security upload
<Keybuk> the first one will require a few lines of code
<Keybuk> which I will do after dinner
<Keybuk> I'll need a nudge each time we end-of-line or open a release to maintain the subscription
<cjwatson> Keybuk: can you edit https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EndOfLifeProcess and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewReleaseCycleProcess to say that, please?
<elmo> speaking of EOL, gutsy will be dropping off archive.ubuntu.com and it's mirrors over the next few days
<directhex> ikonia, ping
<Viper550> I know it may sound a bit...strange, but I'm gonna try and add apt-rpm support to packagekit
<directhex> yes, that sounds strange
<directhex> strange is a delicate term to use
<Viper550> directhex, as in - strange to say in a channel about a superior rival
<Viper550> since this may primaraly be for them pclinuxos users
<Viper550> heck the freakin thing has a all your base joke in it.
<directhex> i only know one pclinuxos user. i would charitably describe him as a douche.
<pace_t_zulu> does anyone here have experience with interfacing python with gconf?
<liw> pace_t_zulu, a little, a long time ago
<pace_t_zulu> liw: do you know how to get and set gconf keys? i am having trouble finding documentation
<pace_t_zulu> liw: even if you could help me find some sort of documentation that would be extremely helpful
<Viper550> and kpackagekit is qt only, right?
<Viper550> *qt4
<liw> pace_t_zulu, I don't have time to look things up right now (in the middle of Ubuntu ISO testing), but http://files.liw.fi/temp/sex.py.txt has the code I wrote many years ago
<pace_t_zulu> liw: thank you for your help
<ikonia> directhex: pong
<directhex> ikonia, PM
<asac> kees: why did you think that the NeedsSecret call is supposed to be allowed for at_console? just trial and error?
<asac> kees: looking at the dbus error it doesnt appear that anything different from uid=0 is involved
<asac> so how does at_console fix that call?
<asac> kees: (re: pptp plugin for NM)
<directhex> hm
<asac> so is root implicitly at_console nowadays?
<LaserJock> does Ubuntu have an EULA?
<james_w> asac: I'm not sure, but as the patch just duplicated the stuff explicitly for root to at_console, I'm not sure why that would change anything
<kees> asac: I have no idea why my patch worked, but it did.  I don't know enough about either dbus or the pptp module to say why.
<asac> seems like dbus doesnt like if root is at_console
<kees> asac: but adding the at_console section fixed it.
<asac> thats the current straw we are following
<kees> hunh
<asac> the vpn definitly only talks to the daemon
<Viper550> LaserJock, for all intensive purposes
<asac> so only root - root communication
<Viper550> there is no "one" EULA covering Ubuntu as a whole. But, different components have different licenses
<asac> kees: so if we patched consolekit to make root at_console it might have caused this
<kees> asac: I can set up a test environment for that again, if you need.
<LaserJock> but is a license a EULA?
<Viper550> in a way, yeah
<kees> asac: I see, yeah, I'm not sure.
<asac> no its a not a EULA
<directhex> LaserJock, no, there's no EULA
<directhex> LaserJock, you don't need to agree to anything as an end user. there are licenses relating to modification and duplication
<LaserJock> that's what I was thinking
<LaserJock> I get confused when other distros have EULAs
<LaserJock> i.e. openSUSE
<ScottK> Do they ship proprietary stuff that needs a license accepted?
<Viper550> most of them are usually "blablabla most components are under free licenses such as the GPL bla bla bla, we provide no warrenty, we provide no right for you to use our trademarks like this"
<LaserJock> ScottK: not sure, but the EULA basically said "yeah, this stuff is mostly GPL, go for it" I thought
<LaserJock> what Viper550 said
<Viper550> *"...and p.s. have fun :3"
<mdke> that appears vaguely somewhere on our website, at the /legal page
<ScottK> That's what I vaguely recalled, but it was 10.1 the last time I used opensuse, so I really don't recall.
<jdong> it also has a please-don't-benchmark clause IIRC.
<LaserJock> I think they redid it recently
<jdong> fairly boilerplate legalese
<asac> kees: are you sure that we use consolekit for at_console now? and not the pam-foreground thing?
<james_w> asac: I'm pretty sure
<LaserJock> anyway, I got an email asking for a link to Ubuntu's EULA and I wasn't sure how to respond
<kees> asac: I am not 100% sure, but nearly so.  I would look to pitti for that answer.  or james_w :)
<james_w> yeah, pitti is the best to ask
<LaserJock> "no" or "each package has its own license, but basically ... [link to ubuntu.com goodness]"
<mdke> LaserJock: send them to /legal.
<james_w>   * Re-add accidentally dropped consolekit dependency. There are still a few
<james_w>     programs using "at_console" in their dbus policy.
<LaserJock> mdke: that's a pretty poor description
<asac> james_w: thats dbus?
<james_w> yep
<mdke> LaserJock: it's all there is though
<lool> kees: Around?  Do you think you'd know what could cause 364290?
<lool> bug #364290
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364290 in cups "audit warnings under armel with file_mmap operation on /etc/passwd and /etc/group" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364290
<lool> Note: not the same warning as /dev/tty on the desktop
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, I'm not sure. I think http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/licensing is much more clear
<kees> lool: sounds like the kernel is forcing PROT_EXEC for mmap calls.
<LaserJock> mdke: /legal suggests that people read the license of *every* package before installing
<LaserJock> mdke: that's rather impractical
<lool> kees: Could it be a kernel config?
<kees> lool: we faced that on i386 when init was set to have an executable stack
<kees> lool: it's likely the way in which you transition to init from the boot process.
<mdke> LaserJock: yes, it's nonsense
<kees> lool: in normal Ubuntu, we use klibc to exec upstart, how does ARM do it?
<lool> kees: In theory in the same way
<LaserJock> mdke: perhaps a link to the ubuntustory licensing page would be a better idea
<mdke> LaserJock: but the licensing page is really dealing with the distinction between different repositories rather than any obligations that users might have
<lool> kees: Not quite sure we use klibc though, it could be regular libc
<james_w> asac: it appears as though root is no at_console
<kees> what program is pid 1 during the booting phase?
<LaserJock> mdke: right, it's not sufficently legalese, but it does give the read an idea of the category of licensing they're dealing with
<lool> kees: Checking...
<LaserJock> mdke: something like the DFSG would be good
<lool> Crap, FS check
<mdke> LaserJock: my point is that the page deals with redistribution issues, not use
<LaserJock> mdke: hmm, right
<lool> kees: Will take a while, will come back to you when it's booted
<lool> kees: thanks!
<asac> james_w: did you run a test case to see that? or just reading code?
<james_w> asac: just from looking at code
<kees> lool: okay, in the meantime, I'm hunting the fixes for klibc that I got upstreamed
<LaserJock> mdke: well, so basically it's "we don't know, we don't think there are any EULAs but we could be wrong"
<mdke> LaserJock: there aren't any - users have unrestricted use of Ubuntu as far as I know. But I could be wrong, I guess
<kees> lool: http://git.kernel.org/?p=libs/klibc/klibc.git;a=commitdiff;h=812e2ff7e74e8c495c936981ba0a0372e50b7244
<ScottK> Unrestricted use is guaranteed for Main/Universe.
<Viper550> "Must allow modification and distribution of modified copies under the same license"
<ScottK> Restricted might have use restrictions, but I'd be suprised.  Multiverse is full of them.
<Viper550> oh no...so that means licenses that allow licensing under different terms aren't allowed?
<asac> ScottK: unrestricted use of code is more accurate i guess. trademarks, icons and stuff ...
<ScottK> Right.
<kees> lool: what does   sudo cat /proc/1/personality   say ?
<ScottK> Viper550: It same .. same license, not .. only the same license.
<LaserJock> ScottK: did you find a page that says that unrestricted use is guaranteed?
<asac> http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/licensing
<ScottK> LaserJock: No, but I know the licensing policy for Main/Universe.  We use DSFG (with some minor differences over interpreation) and that's guaranteed in DFSG.
<asac> Viper550: ^^
<mdke> I suppose there is also http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/components
<asac> i guess the second title should read "multiverse" and not "main". but havent read the content
<LaserJock> ScottK: is it? I'm reading the DFSG and I don't see it exactly
<LaserJock> the /ubuntusotry/licensing page specifically doesn't meantion Multiverse
<ScottK> LaserJock: Between DFSG 5 and 6, I'm not sure what's left.
<LaserJock> "The thousands of software packages available for Ubuntu are organised into three key components: main, restricted and universe."
<lool> kees: 00c00000
<asac> unrestricted is wrong word obviously. its restricted by a free license usually
<kees> lool: yeah, looks like READ_IMPLIES_EXEC is getting set (this should not be)
 * ScottK looks around for a lawyer and steps out of the discussion.
<kees> lool: I would have expected 00000000
<kees> lool: /proc/$pid/personality exists because I spent so long debugging this issue on ia32.  ;)
<lool> kees: I can confirm that /sbin/init uses libc; /lib/vfp/libc actually
<LaserJock> ScottK: well, take something like "by installing this software you agree to name a child,pet,planet, or rock after me"
<lool> (lsof -p 1)
<LaserJock> ScottK: I'm not sure that 5 & 6 would disallow that, but I could be way off
<kees> lool: /sbin/init in the boot setup, right? not upstart itself?
<mdke> LaserJock: not to nitpick about your example, but there could only ever be restrictions on the way the software is used; it's not a contract
<kees> lool: does your local shell have 00000000 personality?
<lool> kees: Sorry, I'm just saying PID 1 uses /lib/vfp/libc
<lool> kees: Yes
<LaserJock> mdke: "way"? or "use"?
 * ScottK notes mdke is a lawyer (IIRC) and defers to his interpretation ...
<lool> kees: sudo cat /proc/self/personality returns 00c00000
<kees> okay, and the ARM is > CPU_ARCH_ARMv6 ?
<lool> No
<lool> Well
<LaserJock> mdke: can it restrict use or just the way it is used?
<lool> It is but, it's built for v5
<lool> v5t actually
<kees> hrm.
<lool> And the /vfp is a VFP version of the lib
<mdke> LaserJock: both
<kees> I'm looking at arm_elf_read_implies_exec in arch/arm/kernel/elf.c
<mdke> ScottK: in my experience free software developers are much more well informed about these issues than lawyers :)
<kees> lool: hrm, so all the processes have 00c00000 ?  that would seem to imply that ARM architecture doesn't have NX protections
<TheMuso> slangasek: ok, it was taken directly from the debian git packaging branch. Thanks for the heads up
<lool> kees: Perhaps it doesn't; how could I check?
<lool> kees: In which case we should disable AA?
<kees> lool: can you paste /proc/cpuinfo somewhere for me?
<LaserJock> mdke: in any case, am I OK to tell this person that the Ubuntu CD doesn't have a EULA, but point to /legal ?
<kees> lool: disabling AA on ARM seems unfortunate.
<Viper550> Also is it me, or did the ATI drivers on later versions of Ubuntu drop support for older models?
<lool> kees: we're moving to v6 next cycle
<kees> lool: I was hoping someone could run the regression tester I wrote on an ARM image: http://people.ubuntu.com/~kees/qrt-test-kernel-security.tar.gz
<lool> kees: http://pastebin.com/f147ffe7c
<kees> hm, nx isn't listed, but that flag (and not the internal kernel routines) may only be x86-specific
<kees> lool: what does   readelf -l /sbin/init   show ?
<kees> lool: (specifically interested in GNU_STACK item, and if it says "RW" or "RWE")
<lool> http://paste.ubuntu.com/154973/
<kees> lool: okay, so the executable itself isn't marked as needing an executable stack, so it must be coming from the kernel side
<mdke> LaserJock: I don't see why not; after all if we can't find one, then it means that a new user is unlikely to :)
<LaserJock> mdke: good point ;-)
<mdke> does anyone know if there is a list somewhere of all the applications in the partner repository and their uses?
<kees> lool: interesting, the personality flags map to READ_IMPLIES_EXEC and ADDR_LIMIT_32BIT
<kees> lool: so, near as I can tell, the kernel's arm_elf_read_implies_exec is returning "1", and the executable_stack is correctly set to EXSTACK_DISABLE_X (via the ELF headers)
<kees> lool: the only way that can happen is:
<kees>         if (cpu_architecture() < CPU_ARCH_ARMv6)
<kees>                 return 1;
<mdke> for example, is there any way I can tell what the difference is between adobe-flashplugin (partner) and flashplugin-installer (multiverse)
<kees> lool: according to your /proc/cpuinfo, you've got CPU_ARCH_ARMv5TEJ not CPU_ARCH_ARMv7
<kees> lool: "CPU architecture: 7" vs arch/arm/include/asm/system.h
<kees> lool: though I find it interesting that arch/arm/kernel/setup.c does not have CPU_ARCH_ARMv5TEJ mentioned
<LaserJock> mdke: do the descriptions help?
<jameswf> kernel folks ?
<mdke> LaserJock: not for me, at least
<LaserJock> mdke: I know what the difference is but I'm not sure it's obvious to users
<mdke> LaserJock: please tell me :)
<kees> lool: I take it back, you *do* have CPU_ARCH_ARMv7
<kees> lool: the /proc/cpuinfo file would say 5TEJ if that's the type you had.  :)
<kees> lool: so, I'm back around to execstack settings.
<slangasek> lool: final spin for armel> well, it looks like libxml2 got built for arm since then (which is good), so we'll want to respin again (meh)
<LaserJock> mdke: the one in -partner has the actual Flash binary, the one in -multiverse is just a wrapper script that downloads it from Adobe
<mdke> LaserJock: are you sure? the description on the partner package says that it downloads it too
<kees> lool: let me write a READ_IMPLIES_EXEC test for you, one sec...
<LaserJock> mdke: last I looked that's the way it was. Look at the package size
<jameswf> KernelPeople: what would be the best way to get files related to Bug: 268502 without cloning the whole git...
<mdke> LaserJock: "This package will download the Flash Player from Adobe". Maybe it's just unclear language
<LaserJock> mdke: more like they copied it from somewhere ;-)
<mdke> LaserJock: possibly. I see the package is a lot bigger.
<mdke> LaserJock: so I guess that suggests that we should recommend that package in the documentation ahead of flashplugin-installer
<lool> kees: The platform is v7 and the kernel targets that, but the userspace is v5t, sorry for not being clearer
<kees> lool: so after you've logged in via gdm, your /proc/self/personality still shows 00c00000 ?
<LaserJock> mdke: you might want to get an official word on that. I generally find that the -multiverse version is better
<lool> kees: I was logged in via gdm all the time
 * kees scratches his head
<LaserJock> I guess Canonical would want to push -partner
<mdke> LaserJock: interesting. Do you know why?
<LaserJock> mdke: because MOTU maintains it better than Adobe/Canonical? I don't know
<mdke> LaserJock: maybe the flashplugin gets a more recent version
<LaserJock> perhaps the -partner packages have more red-tape
<kees> lool: does cups actually run, or is AA fully blocking it?
<lool> kees: I see a process at least
<kees> lool: did you get a chance to run the qrt script I gave a URL to?
<lool> kees: Oh no missed it
<mdke> LaserJock: could be. I might try and get some guidance on this from someone involved in partner
<mdke> LaserJock: it would be quite useful to have a comprehensive list of packages and their pros/cons
<kees> 21:37 < kees> lool: I was hoping someone could run on an ARM image the regression tester I wrote: http://people.ubuntu.com/~kees/qrt-test-kernel-security.tar.gz
<kees> lool: you'll need python-unit, lsb-release, and build-essential, and libcap-bin
<james_w> LaserJock, mdke: /var/lib/dpkg/info/flashplugin-nonfree.postinst
<LaserJock> mdke: for Intrepid there is only 5 packages in -partner, I suppose you could do it by hand
<mdke> LaserJock: oh :)
<lool> kees: Does it output a log or will you want stdout?
<kees> lool: it spews to stdout.  once unpacked:   ./test-kernel-security.py -v
<LaserJock> james_w: nifty
<mdke> james_w: I don't seem to have that
<kees> lool: you can just pastebin it
<LaserJock> mdke: it basically says that it's downloading the Flash tarball from -partner
<james_w> mdke: ah, you don't have it installed. It indicates that flashplugin-nonfree downloads from partner, so it's probably not a version thing.
<james_w> it may be to do with some of the other things that it does though
<LaserJock> james_w: that must be recent
<james_w> this cycle I think
<LaserJock> yeah
<LaserJock> it used to be they were totally different versions
<LaserJock> mdke: so it looks to me like the -multiverse package is now just legacy
<LaserJock> other than if people don't want to enable -partner but have -multiverse enabled
<lool> kees: Sorry netsplit http://paste.ubuntu.com/154988/
<lool> kees: note that CONFIG_SECURITY_DEFAULT_MMAP_MIN_ADDR needs to be <= 32768 on arm
<kees> lool: correct, though that should be unrelated
<lool> Yeah, just a note
<kees> lool: holy crap, there are a lot of missing kernel config options.
<mdke> damn, netsplut
<kees> lool: these should be turned on: CONFIG_DEBUG_RODATA, CONFIG_STRICT_DEVMEM
<lool> amitk: ^
<lool> kees: See, I knew we were missing some options; it's been a consistent source of bugs, so I had a good change betting on that   ;-)
<kees> amitk: I would have expected CONFIG_SECURITY_SELINUX and CONFIG_SECURITY_SMACK too, but I can understand skipping them.  :)
<kees> lool: wow, no randomization in the kernel memory either.  that's sad (that's an upstream deficiency)
<syke> will gcc-snapshot be updated to GCC 4.4 RC1?
<TheMuso> syke: I'd say not at this late stage.
<syke> the last snapshot taken was before all the P1 bugs were fixed; it would be nice if that wasn't ignored
<TheMuso> syke: considering jaunty releases on Thursday, and we are in release freeze, probably not before Jaunty releases.
<syke> ok
<syke> what would the process be for getting it updated in jaunty, after the release?
<TheMuso> syke: It would have to be a stable release update, and even then will likely not be applicable.
<syke> right. and what's the process for nominating such things?
<syke> or should I go through canonical support for this?
<TheMuso> syke: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<Caesar> slangasek: you're problem very busy finishing off Jaunty, but do you know who's a good person to talk to about libxcb problems in Hardy?
<slangasek> Caesar: possibly tjaalton, or #ubuntu-x generally
<Caesar> okay, thanks
<kees> lool: we can have a work-around for the apparmor parser in a moment; I'm rather doubting that READ_IMPLIES_EXEC can be made to go away at such a late day.  though the root cause should be found for ARM during Karmic
#ubuntu-devel 2009-04-21
<jameswf> Anyone in here have the jaunty kernel git repo?
<lool> kees: I would be happy if we could document all distinct jaunty issues though; it's one thing not to manage to have them working, but another to be aware of it   ;-)
<lool> kees: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/364345 is what I filed so far
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364345 in linux "Misses many important kernel configs" [Undecided,New]
<lool> Apart of the cups bug
<lool> kees: Should I file more bugs for the apparmor side of the issues?
<kees> lool: okay, cool.  I just filed 364358  and flipped 364290 to "apparmor" instead of kernel.
<lool> Thanks!
<kees> lool: np, thanks for helping me debug it :)
<lool> kees: I'm happy to give you remote access to an installed system if that can help further testing if you like
<kees> lool: if possible, that'd be great.  I'd like to debug why the one of the qrt tests fails too (unrelated to all this stuff).
<lool> kees: Do you have IPv6?
<kees> lool: I don't have an ipv4/v6 gateway set up, and neither of my ISPs support it :(
<lool> That's ok
<TheMuso> jameswf: git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-jaunty.git
<mneptok> statik: ping
<mneptok> statik: you going to be at the MySQL O'Reilly conf this week?
<spm> mneptok: do you mean the Oracle-SQL O'Reilly conf ? :-)
<mneptok> spm: i mean the MariaDB .5 Conference. 1.0 is next year. ;)
<spm> heh
<slangasek> soren: fyi, ubuntu-server ISOs are going to be respun; linux-server needs to be moved from main to restricted now that it depends on linux-restricted-mumble-tweet
<slangasek> kirkland: ^^ (not sure who all is doing ISO testing this round)
<Pretto> hey folks, can anyone help me to report a bug in jaunty?
<Pretto> i don't know the cause of it, in wich application, i just know the symptom
<cody-somerville> Pretto, whats the symptom?
<Pretto> the problem is that all video player closes when i have "Virtual	2560 800"  in Xorg's display section
<Pretto> sorry, in the screen section cody-somerville
<Viper550> think we should mess with the apt-get -moo easter egg on ubuntu?
<maxb> No, it deserves not to be messed with :-)
<Viper550> well apt-rpm messed with it
<Pici> It doesn't look like a cow :(
<Viper550> apt-rpm's -moo is more cow-like
<Viper550> and it says "Use the moo, Luke"
<Viper550> http://www.linuxforums.org/forum/426298-post14.html
<ebroder> aptitude's moo support is better :)
<ScottK> There's an open bug about the realism of the cow.
<Pretto> any help cody-somerville ?
<cody-somerville> Pretto, Filing it against the apps that crash is probably a good start
<Pretto> cody-somerville, so i must filing every video player?
<cody-somerville> You can't possibly have tried *every* video player, have you?
<cody-somerville> Pretto, Maybe xorg-server would be better than
<Pretto> cody-somerville, what about mplayer, vlc, xine, gxine, gnome-mplayer
<cody-somerville> Pretto, just file it against xserver-xorg
<Pretto> cody-somerville, ok
<Pretto> thank you
<statik> mneptok: no, unfortunately i won't be there
<xivulon> slangasek: have updated the release notes, in case there is a respin, please remove it
<mneptok> statik: grim. :(
<pwnguin> Rafik_: net problems?
<Snova> I've been wondering about that myself. Based on the timing I would guess it's because of long WHO replies or something.
<kirkland> slangasek: i can do some iso testing tomorrow
<kirkland> slangasek: mathiaz is at the mysql conference in santa clara
<kirkland> slangasek: i can cover for him
<kirkland> slangasek: are the iso's ready now?
<kirkland> slangasek: my cronjob should pick them up at 6am tomorrow
<ScottK> kirkland: I think it's been some time since he respun, so I'd guess they are.
<slangasek> kirkland: they're ready now, yes
<slangasek> serial 20090421.1
<kirkland> slangasek: oh, great, then i have them now
<kirkland> slangasek: i've been informally testing them already, then, and haven't hit anything yet.  i'll make sure to record my results tomorrow
<slangasek> yay
<kirkland> slangasek: how's the blood pressure this release?
<slangasek> kirkland: a little bit higher after finishing this coffee; but reasonable overall
<kirkland> slangasek: good to hear then, overall ;-)
<TheMuso> Full test coverage for ubuntustudio disks, all tests have had at least one result.
<slangasek> LaserJock: ffmpeg is not allowed to be on any ISOs (bug #364440); we need to either cut kino out of edubuntu, or ffmpeg out of kino
<LaserJock> slangasek: yeah, I just got the bug
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> I'm reviewing Debian bug #457988 now, to see which approach is actually sensible
<slangasek> hmm, seems to be fairly core functionality for kino, so that doesn't help
<slangasek> we also have kino seeded on the DVD and on ubunutstudio
<slangasek> ubuntustudio, too
<ubottu> Debian bug 457988 in kino "kino: Please add Recommends: ffmpeg" [Normal,Closed] http://bugs.debian.org/457988
<LaserJock> slangasek: how about we drop it?
<slangasek> drop which?
<LaserJock> slangasek: would that cause too much mess?
<LaserJock> slangasek: kino
<slangasek> it's been part of the DVD seed in Ubuntu for quite a while, so I'm inclined to think that it would be better to drop the recommends on ffmpeg
<LaserJock> slangasek: I mean, we can bump ffmpeg to Suggests but LP already has bugs from people requesting ffmpeg as they can't import videos without it
<LaserJock> slangasek: ok
<slangasek> but leaving things as-is, and having ffmpeg just not pulled in unless you have the network available, might also be acceptable
<slangasek> I'm going to wait for cjwatson to wake up so I can get his opinion
<slangasek> LaserJock: do I have your permission to proceed with whatever edubuntu changes are appropriate, to match what we decide for the other images?
<LaserJock> slangasek: yes
<slangasek> okie
<LaserJock> slangasek: I don't have any special affinity for it. It's a bit dead and buggy.
<LaserJock> slangasek: but if we can keep it that's good to as it is our only video editing software
<slangasek> ah, heh
<LaserJock> seems to be a common problem in educational software
<LaserJock> "dead upstream, kinda buggy, but darn it, it's all we got"
<slangasek> sbeattie: in the case of an edubuntu install w/o network, does the install complete, or does it bail because ffmpeg's deps can't be satisfied?
<sbeattie> slangasek: using the add/remove installer, it asks if you'd like to attempt install anyway, even though some packages couldn't be found; if you say okay (vs cancel) it does successfully install.
<sbeattie> (just libavcodec52 doesn't get installed)
<dholbach> good morning
<slangasek> sbeattie: hrm, it installs ffmpeg without libavcodec52?
<slangasek> that would be a deeper bug, the deps shouldn't allow that
<sbeattie> slangasek: sorry, I take that back, it did not install ffmpeg
<slangasek> ok; that's what I expected
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> asac, kees: yes, pam-foreground has gone for good for ages; our CK has a compatibility patch which creates the /var/run/console/* stamps
<slangasek> pitti: morning
<pitti> TheMuso: can you please apply http://paste.ubuntu.com/155171/ to the ubuntustudio ship seed?
<toabctl> hi
<tjaalton> asac: hey, you already had the patched libxcb for 220628 on your ppa.. mind pushing that to jaunty-proposed?
<mdke> persia: can iso files be used to install from a card reader too?
<slangasek> mdke: if you can boot from the card reader, sure?
<mdke> slangasek: ok, thanks.
<TheMuso> pitti: we don't have a DVD seed
<sbeattie> TheMuso: well, the alt seed, which only fits on a DVD.
<slangasek> TheMuso: yes, it needs to be applied to the ship seed
<pitti> TheMuso: right, as I said, ship seed
<pitti> oops, what the others said
<TheMuso> woops, we had that in there, but it got lost somehow.
 * TheMuso sighs, a respin means more testing tomorrow.
<slangasek> yes, sorry
<TheMuso> np
<TheMuso> pushed
<slangasek> this should have been caught a long time ago; we apparently had this in intrepid too
<TheMuso> As I said, I caught it for studio earlier in jaunty, and addressed it, however some fiddling with the seeds recently to put the RT kernel back in again somehow got it lost.
<slangasek> TheMuso: depending on what we decide (when cjwatson wakes up), we will probably need one more change to ubuntustudio seeds plus an ubuntustudio-meta upload; will you be around to help with that?
<TheMuso> slangasek: I can be.
<slangasek> ok, thanks
<TheMuso> Oh well, at least it will mean the others don't have to re-test, and testing again for me is no big deal.
<toabctl> how can i set the owner:group and the permissions for a directory (/var/lib/appname) when i build a debian package?
<toabctl> i build a deb-package for a django-web-application
<directhex> is there no debian team for such things, with documentation?
<TheMuso> c
<Tm_T> d
<juanje> evand: hi, are you there?
<pitti> ogra: hm, the UNR stick still fails to be recognized on my wife's PC
<pitti> (from the BIOS)
<ogra> pitti, but the machine can boot from usb ?
<pitti> ogra: yes
<ogra> hmm
<pitti> ogra: but it looks like the partition table is totally screwed
<pitti> oh, it's mounted as a raw device
<ogra> aww
<pitti> so that isn't a normal usb HD for the bios
<ogra> it should only have one vfat partition
<pitti> but rather like an USB CR-ROM?
<juanje> evand: it's about a bug (310804) on usb-creator. You did commited a fix, but the bug is still witht the issues and the fixes are there since 3 weeks. could you or someone commit the fix, please?
<pitti> ogra: well, it doesn't have any kind of partition table _at all_
 * pitti tries with USB-CDROM or USB-FDD
<ogra> thats really strange
<ogra> if you plug it into your ubuntu machine it should be automounted
<pitti> ogra: yes, automounting works, but as I said, raw device (/dev/sdb)
<pitti> ogra: I got it to boot with "USB-CDROM" in the BIOS
<slangasek> TheMuso: please unseed kino from ubuntustudio; we're keeping the recommends as-is
<pitti> ogra: but now I get a "boot:" prompt and nothing happens
<slangasek> TheMuso: which means it can't go on the ISOs
<pitti> ogra: and if I press "enter", it says image "linux" not found
<ogra> what does file say about the image ?
<TheMuso> slangasek: Right, I guess I need to re-upload meta then.
<ogra> oh, wait, you get a bootprompt
<slangasek> TheMuso: correct
<pitti> ogra: yes, it's the syslinux prompt, I assume
<ogra> yeah, hmm, and there shouldnt be a partition table actually
 * ogra just checked his image ...
<TheMuso> slangasek: Ok so why are we removing kino? Is it pulling in libavcodec via another package as well?
<slangasek> TheMuso: yes, kino Recommends: ffmpeg
<slangasek> and the recommends: is logically correct
<TheMuso> slangasek: Right, thanks.
<pitti> ogra: hm, still works in KVM
<pitti> ogra: perhaps the booting as "USB-CDROM" broke syslinux somehow
<ogra> not sure, it shouldnt write to it, should it ?
<pitti> ogra: and I agree, it'd probably be more robust to have a standard partition table and a bootable partition, then the bios woudl just recognize it as a normal hd
<ogra> yes
<ogra> we do that for the armel image
<TheMuso> slangasek: ok unseeded, let me rebuild meta
<slangasek> TheMuso: yep, thansk
<ogra> it has two partitions ... but the mobile and UNR images used to work that way still
<ogra> so its a bit weird that your machine doesnt boot it
<slangasek> TheMuso: please close bug #364440 in the changelog
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364440 in ubuntustudio-meta "edubuntu-desktop installs ffmpeg which depends on libavcodec52 but is not on install media" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364440
<TheMuso> slangasek: gotcha
 * TheMuso gives meta five to rebuild.
<pitti> ogra: I played with this silly Award bios some more; USB-CDROM/USB-FDD don't work, but USB-HDD works
<pitti> ogra: s/works/boots/; but with -HDD I get the broken lilo prompt
<pitti> ogra: usually (with a partition) I don't select any USB-* stuff, it just appears as a normal hard disk
 * pitti tries to boot in his Dell, bbl
<ogra> well, USB-HDD should dtrt
<TheMuso> slangasek: would it not make sense to drop the ffmpeg recommendation from kino?
<cjwatson> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=457988 was why recommends were added to kino
<ubottu> Debian bug 457988 in kino "kino: Please add Recommends: ffmpeg" [Normal,Closed]
<TheMuso> ah
<TheMuso> righto
<pitti_unr> ogra: hah, it boots on my Dell
<ogra> yay
<ogra> but given that there seem to be BIOSes out there that cant boot unpartitioned we should consider a partitioning scheme for KK for UNR
<ogra> pitti, can you file a bug for that ?
<ogra> StevenK, ^^^^
<ogra> we have the code on cdimage already for the armel live image so shouldnt be to hard to re-use that
<pitti_unr> ogra: will do, when I add my testing results to the ISO tracker
<TheMuso> slangasek: woo hold on, we actually also seed ffmpeg. I guess I'd better unseed that as well.
<ogra> great
<slangasek> TheMuso: <cough> yes
 * TheMuso restarts meta build
<TheMuso> slangasek: we also ship ffmpeg2theora. Is that also affected?
<TheMuso> thats in universe however
<pitti_unr> I like that UNR starter, it's really nice
<TheMuso> although it does depend on libavcodec52 so I guess its affected.
<pitti> ogra: back to my normal system; do you have a LP project for the UNR image builder?
<slangasek> TheMuso: sadly, yes
<ogra> pitti, ubuntu-cdimage should work for a start
<TheMuso> slangasek: np removed, and meta is rebuilding seed lists.
 * TheMuso is not bothered by all this removal, but knows the studio video user community may be less than happy. :)
<pitti> ogra: done, bug 364506
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364506 in ubuntu-cdimage "UNR does not boot: no partition table" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364506
<ogra> thanks
<pitti> also recorded in iso tracker
<mnemo> pitti: is apport already disabled in jaunty??
<pitti> mnemo: yes
<mnemo> ah ok
<asac> tjaalton: is jaunty-proposed already open?
<ogra> asac, yes
 * ogra uploaded to it already
<asac> ogra: thanks.
<asac> tjaalton: so yeah. i can push that to -proposed
<asac> pitti: there seems to be something really odd going on with the at_console thing
<pitti> asac: --verbose ?
<Le-Chuck_ITA> Hi there. I have experienced a very bad system blocker on the latest upgrade of xorg in jaunty. The server crashes on startup and keyboard is locked. I reinstalled and it was there again. I reported basic info in bug #364488. I need to go to work now but could some of you take a look at the bug, ask more information etc? It might go in the release notes if there's no time to fix the bug right now. But it's very serious.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364488 in xorg "After some day of installation, Xorg won't start anymore (black screen and locked keyboard)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364488
<tjaalton> asac: excellent, thanks
<asac> pitti: sorry. my tbird hung. couldnt find the id so quickly: bug 360818
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 360818 in network-manager-vpnc "NetworkManager.vpn fails -- nm-vpn-connection.c.900: NeedSecrets " [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/360818
<asac> pitti: so both parties communicating have uid=0
<asac> but dbus doesnt like that. interestingly, adding an allow for at_console suddenly makes that work
<slangasek> TheMuso: how's the upload coming?
<TheMuso> slangasek: still waiting for meta to rebuild lists. Distance to the UK and bandwidth being used by downloaders is making things a little slower than normal.
<TheMuso> bandwidth in this case is the DC bandwidth
<TheMuso> my connection only has the rebuilding of lists using download bandwidth so my end is clear
<asac> pitti: is there a dbus log or soemthing i can enable to get more info about which rule matches for the user (and leads to a deny)?
<slangasek> TheMuso: oh; if that's an issue, I may be able to do it here faster, let's see
<TheMuso> slangasek: I'm up to armel so it should be done in short order. ports.u.c is a little quicker than archive.u.c it seems
<TheMuso> thats how it appears anyway
<TheMuso> slangasek: done, packaging up and uploading.
<slangasek> TheMuso: ah, you win :-)
<TheMuso> slangasek: uploaded
<slangasek> thanks
<TheMuso> slangasek: thank you for bringing that to my attention.
<slangasek> no problem :)
<TheMuso> Ok, unless there is antyhging else pressing, I'll test tomorrow, and I'll be off and on for the rest of the evening, but mostly off I'd say.
<slangasek> TheMuso: ok, later :)
<cjwatson> ogra: do you know whether the OEM Services 8.04 UNR image was partitioned? (i.e. is bug 364506 a regression from that or not?)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364506 in ubuntu-cdimage "UNR does not boot: no partition table" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364506
<ogra> cjwatson, i dont think it was but i'm not sure
<cjwatson> can you find out?
<cjwatson> (or somebody on your team)
<asac> calc: i had something similar once, but that was a hal-state issue/bug i couldnt reproduce after reboot.
<asac> calc: if it persists for you after reboot, it would be precious if you could see which packages got updated in the last few days for you (as it worked before)
<cjwatson> ogra: mdz says there's no partition table on the original UNR image either, so this can wait until karmic
<ogra> cjwatson, oh, indeed, its wasnt intended for jaunty at all
<ogra> cjwatson, we have code that produces partitioned images already and should be easy to port over, the bug was only thought as a reminder for KK
<pitti> asac: you could try to start it in the foreground with sudo DBUS_DEBUG_OUTPUT=1 dbus-daemon --nofork
<pitti> asac: (warning, untested)
<ogra> cjwatson, another thing, what should happen if i boot a liveimage with oem-config/enable=true ? i seem to land in a normal live session here
<asac> pitti: ok. i ask
<asac> pitti: dan said that dbus might do funny things if root user is always "at_console" ... thats not the case right?
<cjwatson> ogra: that's correct, but the installer will run in OEM mode when you start it; the first obvious visible effect of that will be that the title bar is different, and you get a text entry box on the first page asking you for an identifier for the current batch of machines
<ogra> ah, k, i somehow was expecting a fullscreen installer
<pitti> asac: no, root is not in fact "at_console" unless you have an open su - session
<ogra> cjwatson, right, looks different, great
<ogra> the extra text makes it a wee bit to big for 600 vertical pixels in german (half of the buttons are behind the panel)
<asac> pitti: interesting.
<cjwatson> ogra: fullscreen is for "Install Ubuntu" mode, or if you use 'ubiquity --only'
<ogra> ah, right
 * ogra is impressed, seems to work so far on armel
<oly> anyone know if the nvidia freeze bug is going to be fixed for jaunty ? or bug 355155
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 355155 in linux "Computer hard locks randomly with ubuntu jaunty" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/355155
<Hobbsee> oly: unlikely
<oly> thats a shame, especially considering how many users have nvidia cards
<oly> does that mean we should use the ones from the nvidia site
<Hobbsee> oly: how about you contact nvidia about their drivers?
<oly> i could do, but really dont know what to report, its locks completely so no logs have errors
<Hobbsee> doesn't look like many people are hitting it, fortunately
<Hobbsee> oly: how are we supposed to be able to fix it, when we don't have the source to do so?
<Hobbsee> i'm not sure if/how you can get more logs though, seeing as i doubt nvidia provide debug symbols either?
<StevenK> Magic
<oly> yeah, thats true but devs generally have a better idea what to look for / report
<mnemo> oly: install the package "ssh" and connect into your machine from another machine... then after the lockup happens, save "dmesg" and "xorg.log" and send them to NVidia
<oly> ok, i will give that a try be intresting to see if that works
<mnemo> oly: beware though that nvidia purposely makes the log output suck because they don't print stacktraces etc because they dont have debug symbols...
<tjaalton> nvidia-bug-report.sh is meant for sending bugs to them
<Hobbsee> mnemo: but it's a hard lock?
<Hobbsee> tjaalton: ahh, so there is a script!
<tjaalton> Hobbsee: yes, it's their's and comes with the package
<Hobbsee> mnemo: i thought of suggesting ssh myself, but if it's properly hardlocked, it won't respond to commands by ssh either
<oly> do you run the script when i manage to ssh in or after i have had to reboot
<Hobbsee> tjaalton: one learns something new every day...
<tjaalton> Hobbsee: :)
<oly> well by hardlock i mean keyboard / mouse does not work cant get to a terminal with ctrl + alt + f1 or anything like that
<mnemo> Hobbsee: xorg often hangs so that ssh still responds... but of course if the kernel hangs there isn't much to do
<tjaalton> oly: it could be fixed in the new driver version (180.51)
<oly> is that making it into jaunty ?
<oly> guessing not now, synaptics shows 180.44 as latest in the repo
<tjaalton> maybe as a backport
<tjaalton> apparently it's a "prerelease"
<oly> okay, well i may wipe the machine anyway just to rule out something left over from a previous upgrade
<oly> anyway thxs for the ideas on how to debug :)
<directhex> how odd. 7.10 desktop CD doesn't boot for me in kvm
<Riddell> bryce: where do I find info on what you need from i965 owners?
<ogra> directhex, it probably knows that it's EOLed this week :)
<directhex> ogra, i wanted to check something :/
<directhex> ogra, goes nuts & eats my CPU when isolinux should be doing something like shopwing a boot menu :/
<directhex> let's try the alt cd
<pitti> Riddell: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/jaunty/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/359392/comments/92
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 359392 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "[i965] X freezes starting on April 3rd" [Critical,Triaged]
<pitti> Riddell: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+archive/x-freeze-test also has descriptions
<Hobbsee> mnemo: that's true.  I had that for a while under intel
<slangasek> TheMuso: I'm tentatively pointing to http://ubuntustudio.org/9-04_release_note for Ubuntu Studio in the release announcement; does this look correct to you, and will content be available by Thursday?
<TheMuso> slangasek: I have nothing to do with the website I'm affraid.
<slangasek> TheMuso: who do I talk to for that?
<TheMuso> slangasek: I think either _MMA_ / Cory or luisbg whenever they are around. _MMA_ is not always in here, actually he hardly ever is in here however.
<TheMuso> They should be around in a couple of hours if memory serves.
<slangasek> yes, I've noticed this :/
<slangasek> luisbg: ping
<slangasek> TheMuso: well, luisbg is UTC-2 IIRC, so I guess he might be around (or at least awake)
<TheMuso> slangasek: yeah
<TheMuso> slangasek: and _MMA_ is on freenode, but not in any channels atm.
<slangasek> superm1: is http://mythbuntu.org/9.04/release
<slangasek> superm1: ...where you want me pointing for release?
<slangasek> TheMuso: something seems awry still with ubuntustudio; libavcodec52 has been successfully blacklisted, kino and ffmpeg2theora are off, but ffmpeg and the other ffmpeg libs are still there
<slangasek> TheMuso: however, the seeds look correct, so I guess this is my problem, not yours
<StevenK> slangasek: Germinate bug?
<slangasek> surely not
<StevenK> s/bug/problem/
<slangasek> that, maybe
<StevenK> I did actually mean problem, silly tired brain
<ogra_babbage> The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
<ogra_babbage>   amarok-common libfftw3-3 libtunepimp5 libifp4 libruby1.8 libnjb5 libofa0
<ogra_babbage> Use 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.
<ogra_babbage> hrm, thats a freshly installed system ... (ubuntu-desktop) ...
<ogra_babbage> ogra@oem-desktop:~$ LANG=C dpkg -l amarok-common
<ogra_babbage> No packages found matching amarok-common.
<ogra_babbage> mvo: why does it want to remove nonexisting packages ?
<ogra_babbage> ogra@oem-desktop:~$ LANG=C sudo apt-get autoremove
<ogra_babbage> ...
<ogra_babbage> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
 * ogra_babbage is confused
<mvo> ogra_babbage: oh? hm, what kind of install is this?
<ogra> thats an armel desktop install
<ogra> (on the babbage board as you might guess by the nick)
<ogra> i ran sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop ... that got me the above autoremove msg
<ogra> i dont get that message on any other apt action though
<mvo> ogra: could you please run "sudo apt-get autoremove -o Debug::pkgAutoRemove=true" ? the output is probably long
<mvo> ogra: what command did produce the autoremove message?
<ogra> sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop
<ogra> its the first three lines before it lists what it will install
<lool> ogra: interesting
<mvo> funny, I suspect its a side effect of the resolver
<mvo> the autoremove code checks if something is installed or marked for install
<ogra_babbage> ergh, the debug settin spills a lot of output
<lool> It's a feature!
<mvo> ogra: -o debug::pkgdepcache::autoinstall=true as well please
<mvo> ogra: fwiw, i just tried to reproduce it in a chroot but was not able to
<ogra_babbage> damned ... /me curses pidgin ... your commands are full of :P
<StevenK> mvo: It could be an armel thing?
<ogra> it likely is
<ogra> mvo, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/autoremove.log
<ogra> the autoinstall=true option doesnt give any extra output
<soren> I forget... Where are the release notes?
<slangasek> soren: ttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyJackalope/ReleaseNotes
<ogra_babbage> Reading state information... Done
<ogra_babbage> Garbage: amarok-common
<ogra_babbage> Garbage: libfftw3-3
<ogra_babbage> Garbage: libtunepimp5
<ogra_babbage> Garbage: libifp4
<ogra_babbage> Garbage: libruby1.8
<ogra_babbage> Garbage: libnjb5
<ogra_babbage> Garbage: libofa0
<ogra> aha
<soren> slangasek: ta
<slangasek> soren: there's also the 'ubuntu-release-notes' project that can be used if you need to bring something to attention (throughout the release cycle)
<soren> slangasek: Clever :)
<slangasek> TheMuso: <gibber> stopmotion *also* recommends ffmpeg
<jdstrand> slangasek: IIRC, sbeattie requested that bug #359338 be in the release notes. looking at the bug, I don't see where that would be flagged
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 359338 in linux "apparmor paths are broken when using encrypted home on jaunty" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/359338
<slangasek> jdstrand: the 'ubuntu release notes' task at the top
 * jdstrand still doesn't see the tag, but could be blind
<jdstrand> oh, 'task'
<jdstrand> duh
<jdstrand> slangasek: anyway, as more people are using encrypted home and Private, more people will be affected by this
<slangasek> jdstrand: you don't need to advocate for it, I was just in the process of writing the release note for that one. :)
<jdstrand> slangasek: :)
<jdstrand> slangasek: thanks
 * TheMuso gulps.
<TheMuso> slangasek: if I unseed, could you be so kind as to rebuild meta?
<slangasek> TheMuso: is unseeding the right thing here?  That would seem to leave only dvgrab in the video seed
<TheMuso> slangasek: I don't know what other option we have. Removing the recommends means diverting from debian.
<TheMuso> and likely again removes functionality.
<slangasek> is that worse than having an empty video seed?
<slangasek> s/seed/task/
<TheMuso> I couldn't honestly say, since I'm not a user of such apps.
 * TheMuso checks its source to see whether it actually uses ffmpeg in any way
<slangasek> TheMuso: point being that there's only one app left in the video seed after this change
<slangasek> it uses ffmpeg for exports
<TheMuso> slangasek: Yes I know.
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> my opinion is that it makes more sense to repopulate the video task, but drop the video task from the ISO
<TheMuso> hrm ok thats a possibility, yes.
<TheMuso> The only problem that might cause is the video task still appearing to be selectable at install time
<slangasek> TheMuso: it would appear for installation IFF the ubuntustudio-video package is available, which will only be the case when network repos are available
<TheMuso> slangasek: Right.
 * TheMuso attempts to get in touch with other studio devs to see what they think. If not, my gut is we go for it, and deal with the fallout from the community later.
<Riddell> mvo: upgrading from 8.04 to 9.04 in kubuntu leaves guidance-power-manager (called kde-guidance-powermanager in hardy) installed, but it's marked as ForcedObsoletes in DistUpgrade tool, shouldn't it be removed?
<mvo> Riddell: yes it should, could you mail me the main.log file please?
<TheMuso> slangasek: If I don't get a response from anyone before meta gets rebuilt here, we go with the dropping of the video task, but still have it available in the repo etc.
<slangasek> TheMuso: ok; which way are you rebuilding meta, currently?
<TheMuso> slangasek: which way? the way one always does with regenerating seed lists for a metapackage.
<slangasek> TheMuso: I mean, in which direction have you modified it
<TheMuso> slangasek: in the seed branch, reverted the video seed back to what it was before I removed kino, ffmpeg etc, but removed video from a dependency of the ship seed
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> jdstrand, sbeattie: please review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyJackalope/ReleaseNotes#Apparmor%20profiles%20incompatible%20with%20ecryptfs
<jdstrand> slangasek: looks good except that it is ecrypted $HOME and encrypted Private
<TheMuso> I'll get the changes made here, and announce it to the lists.
<slangasek> jdstrand: I don't understand
<TheMuso> woops wrong channel
<jdstrand> slangasek: there are two ways to setup ecryptfs in the installer: a) all of a user's home directory (encrypted $HOME) and b) a regular $HOME directory with an encrypted $HOME/Private directory
<jdstrand> slangasek: granted, users of 'b' will have made a concious decision to put things in ~/Private and symlink, etc to be affected by the bug
<TheMuso> cjwatson: If I have a line in a seed STRUCTURE file like this, "ship: boot desktop audio graphics audio-plugins video d-i-requirements" and I wanted to revent the video task from being on the disks, I remove video from that line correct?
<cjwatson> TheMuso: right, but good grief it's late to be doing that?
<TheMuso> cjwatson: see above, and the ffmpeg mess.
<jdstrand> slangasek: thinking about it just now, 'b' may not be worth mentioning in the release notes
<TheMuso> cjwatson: It was slangasek's suggestion.
<PecisDarbs> what a is with that udev + netlink scare?
<jdstrand> slangasek: I'll leave that up to you
<slangasek> jdstrand: are you saying both are affected and this isn't clear from the note?
<jdstrand> slangasek: yes
<TheMuso> cjwatson: 99% of our video packages need ffmpeg.
<jdstrand> slangasek: I might be too 'inside' though, because I recognize the difference, where and average user probably wouldn't
<slangasek> cjwatson: the alternative is to have a totally useless video task on the ISO, because only one of 6 apps are left in the seed after getting rid of ffmpeg :(
<cjwatson> TheMuso: ok, then yes that's the way to remove it
<jdstrand> slangasek: perhaps s/encrypted home directories/encrypted directories/
<TheMuso> cjwatson: thanks
<slangasek> jdstrand: hmm - I'm personally content with what's currently there, but feel free to edit if you think it needs further improvement
<jdstrand> slangasek: ok. kirkland may have a better handle on the language, since he knows the user's better than I
<jdstrand> kirkland: can you review/comment? ^
<TheMuso> slangasek: ok one more meta upload coming your way, and the work to remove video from the disk is now in the seeds.
<slangasek> TheMuso: right; thanks
<TheMuso> slangasek: thanksagain for the ehads up and suggestion.
 * TheMuso is glad he checked in here before heading to bed. :)
<slangasek> me too!
<jdstrand> s/user's/users/
<kirkland> jdstrand: howdy, what am i looking at?
<kirkland> slangasek: ?
<slangasek> kirkland: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyJackalope/ReleaseNotes#Apparmor%20profiles%20incompatible%20with%20ecryptfs
<kirkland> slangasek: ack, looks good to me
<mvo> Riddell: thanks for the guidance-power-manager bug, could you please run "sudo apt-get remove guidance-power-manager" on the upgraded system and let me know if that will remove something else?
<superm1> slangasek, yes that's the URL we'll be using
<slangasek> superm1: thanks
<superm1> slangasek, i take it you are only planning to accept ubiquity 1.12.13 in the event a livefs reroll is needed for all disks?
<slangasek> superm1: correct
<superm1> slangasek, ok sounds good
<Riddell> mvo: only kde-guidance-powermanager
<mdz> quadrispro: you reported in the iso tracker that bug 340160 was not fixed for you
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 340160 in linux "RTL8187SE not recognized by jJaunty kernel on EEEpc 701SD" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/340160
<mdz> quadrispro: that bug says that the module is not built.  however, it does seem to be built: filename:       /lib/modules/2.6.28-11-generic/kernel/drivers/staging/rtl8187se/rtl8187se.ko
<mdz> quadrispro: so if your wireless isn't working, that's likely a different bug.  could you file it separately?
<jdstrand> kirkland: what I was asking about was perhaps also including encrypted Private
<jdstrand> kirkland: if you think it is not worth mentionign because of everything a user has to do to hit the bug with encrypted Private, that is fine
<kirkland> jdstrand: ah
<kirkland> jdstrand: well, anyone using ecryptfs might hit it
 * jdstrand nods
<kirkland> jdstrand: i think that was fairly clear
<kirkland> jdstrand: let me read it again
<jdstrand> kirkland: it said 'encrypted home directories'
<kirkland> jdstrand: right, i see that now
<jdstrand> kirkland: I of course am very aware of the difference, but an average user might not be
<jdstrand> kirkland: I thought maybe 'encrypted directories' would cover most use cases
<kirkland> When using encrypted home (or private) directories together with apparmor
<kirkland> jdstrand: ah, yeah, that's good
<kirkland> jdstrand: slangasek: fixed.
<liw> ubiquity seems to show the name of every package it removes from the target system; I wonder if that's a significant drain on cpu (the text changes too fast even under kvm for me to read, so I'm not even sure it's sensible)
<cjwatson> I doubt printing the name is much of a drain
<cjwatson> most of the work is in apt/dpkg
<directhex> label1.markup = pkgname;
<cjwatson> I think actually it's unusual for it to be too fast to read; it isn't for me, IME
<cjwatson> (so in my case, the feedback is useful)
<liw> cjwatson, ah, kvm may actually have an edge here, since all disk I/O is actually in RAM
<slangasek> TheMuso: confirmed that the seed change has ffmpeg off the ISO now; just need to wait for another publishing run to get the -meta packages up-to-date.
<asac> we had ffmpeg on iso? its in main?
<cjwatson> it's in main but forbidden from CDs
<directhex> asac, without libavcodec. somehow.
<asac> cjwatson: why is it in main if its not on CDs?
<cjwatson> there was a TB decision on it
<asac> did we need to provide support for that?
<asac> hmm
<cjwatson> yeah, something like that - there's a date reference to the TB meeting in question in the seeds, if you want to look it up
<asac> ok. though i dont really get whats the difference from being in main vs. universe if not on CD
<cjwatson> there was a reason for it, I just forget it :)
<asac> no, but good to know. i can tell gnash folks that they can focus on ffmpeg now (they always said gstreamer is a real pain)
<cjwatson> only if we don't want gnash on the CDs
<cjwatson> and gnash is in mobile-mid
<asac> really. wow
<asac> i should let the gnash folks know about that i guess ;) ... might help to motivate them
<asac> someone said that ffmpeg now has a similar mechanism as gstreamer that would allow on-demand codec install
<directhex> asac, i think that's most plugin developers' view - ffmpeg is easy peasy, gstreamer is not
<directhex> asac, e.g. moonlight uses ffmpeg, but they'd welcome a gstreamer port from someone with a high pain threshhold
<mvo> Riddell: I think I found it, its a bit too careful. if guidance-power-manager is no longer useful at all, I can force the removal earlier (via PostUpgradeRemove)
<mvo> Riddell: I updated the bug
<mvo> Riddell: just let me know what is most appropriate
<Riddell> mvo: may as well just add to PostUpgradeRemove
<mvo> Riddell: thanks, doing that now
<mvo> Riddell: commited
<Riddell> thanks mvo
<quadrispro> mdz: the module is build correctly, but it doesn't work
<quadrispro> i must go away now, see you soon
<mvo> np
 * kwwii leaves for the airport
<mdz> cjwatson: as discussed: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/364649
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 364649 in ubiquity "Please include installation media build number in installation logs" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<NCommander> O_o;, I'll be damned. The Ubuntu jaunty SPARC cd works. I thought we broke those
<soren> Try harder.
<cjwatson> NCommander: d-i hasn't built on sparc for ages, so they aren't releaseable
<wasabi> Does anybody other than me even use Winbind?
<wasabi> Seems like somebody would have realized that it breaks horrible between distro upgrades. Heh.
<soren> wasabi: Bug reports to that effect would be much appreciated.
<wasabi> I think I have one.
<wasabi> Just seems a bit odd.
<wasabi> The basic idea is that turning off Winbind for 5 minutes is not good.
<slangasek> lool, ogra: oh, iop32x got posted to the tracker, but that's DOA, right?
<slangasek> wasabi: yes, you did file a bug about that, 6 or 12 months ago... :)
<ogra> i think so
<ogra> wasabi, 225874 people according to http://popcon.ubuntu.com/main/by_inst
<wasabi> Do they actually use it for NSS? If you turn winbind off, nss starts failing.
<wasabi> And the desktop goes down pretty shortly after.
<ogra> heh, no idea :)
<wasabi> So, like, I just did the Jaunty upgrade.
<wasabi> It shut down winbind early in the process... and everything broke.
<wasabi> Nautilus died, window manager went poof.
<wasabi> tried to respawn a few times...
<wasabi> all my open terminals were useless, because they didn't know who I was.
<wasabi> The time that winbind is down should be kept to an absolute minimum.
<lool> slangasek: It's likely it's dead, but I'll double check on a 100 MBits link to be sure
<wasabi> And then at some point during the upgrade X died. That was nice too. Probably a seperate problem.
<wasabi> or maybe gnome-session died because of lack of NSS.
<slangasek> why would gnome-session need NSS while it's running?
<wasabi> Got me.
<wasabi> Any usage of getent pretty much fails.
<wasabi> Basically, figuring out the home directory.
<slangasek> there's no reason the process should need to do that more than once
<wasabi> Well, lots of stuff pretty much broke horribly during hte upgrade.
<NCommander> cjwatson, well, the CD image itself is also hosed (I think its the same bug that bit PowerPC in intrepid), so thats pointless. Its on my karmic things-to-fix list now
<wasabi> It wouldn't suprise me that being unable to find the home dir, or the user name, or whatever, would be a handled error condition.
<wasabi> unhandled.
<wasabi> On that vein, winbind should also cache all records for any logged in user, and never even try to reconsult the domain for it.
<wasabi> s/on/in/
<ebroder> wasabi: You could just install nscd
<wasabi> Oh goodness.
<wasabi> winbind is supposed to play that role.
<wasabi> and last I checked nscd was barely functional.
<ebroder> Yeah, so I hear, but I wouldn't expect NSS modules to write their own caching when there's this thing that's supposed to do it already. UNIX philosophy and all that
<directhex> nscd is junk. gnscd works but needs-packaging
<directhex> fwiw
<wasabi> Winbind is already a seperate daemon.
<wasabi> And it already does caching.
 * ebroder shrugs
<directhex> winbind is free to cache if it likes, but nscd has the specific role of caching for all of nss
<directhex> caches on caches. lame? maybe. required? oh yes
<wasabi> nscd also has the side effect of not doing the nss request as the proper user... which in the case of Winbind doesn't matter much... but like, with LDAP, it matters.
<wasabi> Screws up anything you're trying to use kerberos with.
<wasabi> Not sure how I feel about that. Requires more thoughrt.
 * ogra wonders about bug 364648 ... lool it was enabled by default for me 
<ebroder> I'm...somewhat baffled that NSS+LDAP where you need krb auth works at all. Surely root needs to look up things sometimes? But that's not actually important
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364648 in ubuntu-cdimage "UNR OEM mode: Autologin should be set by default" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364648
<ogra> (i'm 100% sure)
<wasabi> Well, the computer should have it's own kerberos ticket.
<wasabi> Which is a pain in the ass to make work right.
<wasabi> The computer should also change it's own password. :)
<wasabi> winbind/samba does all this.
<wasabi> But only for AD.
<NCommander> cjwatson, on the topic of releasable, are the PowerPC ones are? (I know they've been tested, and to my knowledge they work fine, both live and alternative).
<wasabi> I guess I do sort of think the userlist should be maintained by the machine, and not by the user.
<wamty> I realize this isn't linux specific, but I thought someone in here might happen to know, is it possible to add two 128 bit ints in a single opcode on x86?
<wasabi> But that's a broken scenario too though.
<cjwatson> NCommander: in principle, if they work ...
<wamty> on any x86 cpu, I mean
<NCommander> cjwatson, does that mean they'd be on releases.u.c, or just in the release folder on cdimage?
<cjwatson> they aren't unreleaseable in the same way as sparc, certainly
<cjwatson> NCommander: not on releases.ubuntu.com
<cjwatson> that's only for the most-downloaded images
<NCommander> wamty, I think there are some SSE opcodes that can, but I'd have to break out the book to check.
<NCommander> cjwatson, I thought as much; I just dislike how unpublized ports are at times :-/. At least my goal of PowerPC on jaunty was met.
<pace_t_zulu> anyone here have any experience with gconf?
<pace_t_zulu> i am trying to remove a directory
<pace_t_zulu> and i get the following message: "(process:16228): GConf-WARNING **: Directory `/apps/panel' was not being monitored by GConfClient 0x18eac60"
<pace_t_zulu> i realize that i am skipping a crucial step to remove the '/apps/panel' directory... but i have been unable to locate any documentation as to what that step is
<pace_t_zulu> apologies for my question...
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, Why does livecd-rootfs override the default showformat of dpkg-query to have a space between the name and version instead of a tab?
<jcole> hi all, i noticed an update to evolution-mapi recently so i tried to test tit again... still fails, so i did a detailed apport bug 364708
<ubottu> Bug 364708 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/364708 is private
<jcole> s/tit/it
<larsivi> hi - it would be very good if bug 347361 could be fixed in Hardy, the corresponding debian package should have a patch
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 347361 in net-snmp "libsnmp-python segmentation fault" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/347361
<larsivi> I can confirm that the bug is real
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: does it matter?
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: I think it could use the default format, but it hardly seems important
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, You tell me if its important :P
<cjwatson> it is not important
<cody-somerville> Okay, thanks.
<larsivi> regarding the bug above, it is reported against intrepid, must another bug be created for hardy?
<cjwatson> cody-somerville: if you want it changed, though, feel free to file a low-priority bug
<cjwatson> it would only be for code cleanup purposes
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, Okay
<jcole> how do i go about getting my password removed from an apport bug report stacktrace
<seb128> jcole: you can try asking on #launchpad, they can edit comments
<seb128> jcole: retracing are private bugs by default if that makes any difference, ie only selected people can access to those
<jcole> thanks seb128
<seb128> you're welcome
<jcole> seb128: im thinking i may need to sudo sed -i /var/crash/* from now on before submitting to apport
<seb128> jcole: will that works in crashdumps too?
<seb128> jcole: you can still retrace locally and clean the stacktrace if you don't want those infos to be in private bugs
<james_w> jcole: is the password in an attachment?
<jcole> james_w: yes, stacktrace
<james_w> jcole: you can just delete the attachment then
<james_w> on the right hand side is an "attachments" box
<james_w> click the "edit" link next to it, and then delete
<james_w> you can do that for each that contains it
<jcole> james_w: oh ok, maybe i can edit then reupload
<james_w> yeah, that would be useful if you still want this report worked on
<james_w> is this bug still private? it will say in the top right
<jcole> james_w: yes it is... but, i will make it public after i clean up the trace :)
<james_w> just wanted to make sure you were vaguely protected
<jcole> thanks guys, ive sanitized the attachments in bug 364708 and made it public... now ill just sit back and wait :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364708 in evolution-mapi "4/21/2009 evolution-mapi still crashes after latest updates, calendar still does not work" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364708
<directhex> jcole, does it work with SSL-demanding servers yet?
<jcole> directhex: if i dont use jaunty's version and compile openchange/evolution-mapi/samba4 manually, everything works, even tls/ssl
<directhex> jcole, hm. lame.
<jcole> directhex: if i manually "fudge" evolution mapi configs into ~/.evolution/ and ~/.gconf.gconf/apps/evolution/ i can get mail to *partially* work with jauntys versions, but calendar does not work at all
<jcole> s/.gconf.gconf/.gconf
<seb128> jcole: can you figure if rebuilding only one of openchange, evolution-mapi, samba4 and see which one fix the issue?
<jcole> seb128: well, ive tried that to a certain extent... the latest openchange does not like the samba4 dev in jaunty so i had to pull the latest samba4 dev from cvs for it to compile... then, the latest compiled openchange would not "cooperate" with jaunty samba4... i had to make install both openchange and samba4
<seb128> jcole: could you try if building openchange 0.8.2 is enough to fix the issue?
<jcole> seb128: after that fiasco, i tried evo mapi in jaunty which still crashed fro me... so again, i compiled evo mapi from source which worked
<jcole> seb128: i compiled openchange (using the latest samba4 dev) and did a make install... but jauntys samba4 version wont work with it
<seb128> jcole: could you try just updating openchange to 0.8.2?
<jcole> seb128: jaunty already has 0.8.2 and but svn has a later version... i will try to build again according to http://wiki.openchange.org/index.php/Debian
<seb128> jcole: no, it has 0.8
<jcole> $ apt-cache show libmapi0 | grep Version
<jcole> Version: 1:0.8-2ubuntu1
<jcole> ohh
<jcole> 0.8-2 != 0.8.2
<jelmer> hi seb128, jcole
<seb128> hey jelmer
<seb128> jelmer: thanks for not updating openchange before jaunty
<jelmer> seb128: sorry, I just haven't had the time
<jelmer> upstream has nontrivially changed for 0.8.2
<seb128> that's ok, would be nice to let us know next time though
<seb128> evolution-mapi doesn't work at all in jaunty
<superm1> seb128, so perhaps considering that is it worthwhile to look into an SRU for 0.8.2?
<seb128> superm1: if that's an update with non trivial changes that's not going to be easy to get sru-ed
<seb128> superm1: we will try to backport fixes though
<superm1> right, well maybe as soon as karmic opens; a backport at least yeah
<seb128> superm1: but testing exchange fixes without an exchange server is not trivial so we rely on user comments
<superm1> seb128, understood. i personally kept getting excited every time at the prospect that evolution-mapi might finally work whenever i saw the uploads for related packages coming through
<seb128> I've been tried to get working for jaunty, but jelmer said he would update to 0.8.2 in debian which he didn't
<seb128> then I backported some svn changes which were fixed a crasher issue according to upstream but there is still some bugs apparently
<superm1> ah i see
<Picklesworth> Hey, I'm staring at a bug in notify-osd, where sometimes bubbles don't fade in properly, instead starting at 0 opacity until I mouse over them. (Especially when I am not moving the mouse, and ESPECIALLY volume confirmation ones although it could be because those are the ones I most expect to fade in properly). Anyone know about this one?
<jcole> Picklesworth: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/packagenameyouareinterestedabout/+bugs
<directhex> am i the only one confused by the new volume control behaving in reverse compared to the old one if you use the mouse wheel in it?
<jcole> directhex: ditto
<directhex> i have volume buttons on the keyboard, but habits die hard
<jcole> directhex: to make it more confusing, open up the volume control and its reversed
<jcole> wtf with hyperair
<directhex> jcole, lame. file a bug!
<seb128> there is a bug about the volume thing
<directhex> that's okay then
<seb128> bratsche looked a bit to it but said that's non trivial to change
<seb128> I usually use the mouse scrolling on the icon without opening the popup dialog which works correctly ;-)
<directhex> let me guess. some stupid thing to do with the gtk widget itself?
<hyperair> jcole: very sorry. i had a screen + irssi malfunction.
<directhex> probably workaroundable in some hideous manner, but easier to ignore for now
<seb128> right
<seb128> or rather there is other higher priority bugs open
<seb128> but patches are welcome as usual ;-)
<jcole> gnome volume control also used to be "linked" to the volume control on the panel... now when you control the gnome volume control, panel volume doesnt update...
<directhex> i said "for now"!
<seb128> jcole: is the panel mixer displayed the same channel than the one you control?
<directhex> seb128, i'm not accepting responsibility for patching gtk. too high profile.
<seb128> displaying
<hyperair> jcole: if you set them both to modify the same stream then it will be linked. otherwise it won't
<seb128> right click, preferences, see what is selected there
<directhex> plus, C. yuck.
<jcole> ie: open gnome volume control, then click the panel to show the volume control, move back over to the gnome volume control master and scroll on it
<TheMuso> no problem, I am going to start leaning on luisbg_  more anyway./c
<TheMuso> woops
<jcole> the reverse works just fine
<seb128> the popup is hidden when switching focus
<jcole> seb128: just use the scroll
<jcole> seb128: dont focus it :)
<jcole> its no biggie, just something i noticed
<seb128> right, the icon is not updated either when doing that
<jcole> im out early...
<Picklesworth> Jaunty does have the fancy new gnome-volume-control-pulse in the repositories, now, which is vastly cooler if you use PulseAudio :)
<Picklesworth> (If you want a workaround)
<bratsche> seb128, directhex: Yeah, since the volume control went horizontal the mousewheel does the opposite effect.  Because mouse-up translates into left in the range widget, which the applet interprets as "volume down".
<Picklesworth> funny that Ubuntu kept the horizontal thing but dropped the PulseAudio part. Not even Fedora is using the horizontal applet
<Picklesworth> unless my memory is foggy :P
<seb128> the horizontal slider is the GNOME official 2.26 applet
<seb128> the new one is a notification area icon and use pulseaudio only
<seb128> we just build the optional upstream applet and use that without changing it
<Picklesworth> seb128: okay, thanks for clearing it up. Wasn't sure how official it was :)
<alex-weej> seb128: notification area icon? how do i enable that?
<alex-weej> i still have volume applet
<seb128> alex-weej: install gnome-volume-control-pulse that's the GNOME 2.26 pulse only thing
<alex-weej> is this in the default install?
<seb128> alex-weej: it's only an icon in the notification area and a slider and can do pulse only
<seb128> alex-weej: no, it does pulse only and we have the applet which does alsa, gstreamer, etc which quite some people rely on
<alex-weej> ok
 * alex-weej doesn't even have pulse installed, too much trouble for me right now :(
<lamont> WTF can't I modify fields in read-only spreadsheet?  I mean,  it's not like I want to actually save them....
<alex-weej> lamont: because open office.
<lamont> heh
#ubuntu-devel 2009-04-22
<seb128> james_w: do you know who is the guy who blogged about banshee and rhythmbox?
<Laney> directhex
<Laney> seb128: ^
<seb128> Laney: thanks
<pwnguin> are we angry or excited?
<seb128> none of those
<seb128> just wanting to say that those several megabytes are the user documentation
<pwnguin> heh
<seb128> rhythmbox has 6megs of those with translations version where banshee has none
<pwnguin> d'oh!
<seb128> so the argument is rather in defavor of banshee if you ask me
<directhex> fiddlesticks
<seb128> directhex: so the space is the user documentation translated in 11 locales
<seb128> directhex: we can start dropping all user documentation to work CD space but I don't think that's a good move
<seb128> directhex: I'm fine discussion rhythmbox against banshee but I'll not take that CD space argument as a valid one ;-)
<seb128> discussion -> discussing
<seb128> can't type tonight ;-)
<directhex> seb128, fair enough
<directhex> seb128, i'd still like a desktop team assessment ANYWAY, so they have a hit list of bugs
<Picklesworth> I would be sad to see Magnatune and Jamendo support drop out of the default install, so hopefully those plugins can find their way into Banshee
<seb128> we already discussed rhythmbox and banshee at UDS one year ago
<directhex> seb128, we really need a better solution for all these localised PNGs than bundling the lot with every app though
<directhex> one year ago, so... end of the hardy cycle?
<seb128> we can rediscuss it, but it was not clear banshee was bringing lot that rhythmbox doesn't have and that users want
<directhex> ah, 0.13
<seb128> directhex: yeah, there is a spec about having user documentation translations in language packs, that's blocked on soyuz changes though
<directhex> s' been rewritten since then, so as a minimum it should be considered a pretty different app. for better for worse
<seb128> directhex: we did look at the new banshee codebase I think, the thing is that they are similar applications
<seb128> there is some things banshee do better and that would be nice to get in rhythmbox
<directhex> and vice versa
<directhex> bien sur
<seb128> but it was not clear that we should rather spend some ressources getting those in rhythmbox
<seb128> ie ipod syncing
<seb128> otherwise there is only the "banshee looks nicer"
<seb128> anyway let's wait UDS to have a proper discussion, I will try banshee again for a week or something before that
<seb128> but as mentioned before if things which are available now as magnatune are not in banshee I doubt we will switch if there is no compeling reasons to do so
<pwnguin> does rhythmbox have a decent video-podcast tool?
<directhex> RB doesn't do video afaik
<seb128> no, rhythmbox is a music library software, not a video one
<pwnguin> im kinda finding it unfortunate to check rss feeds in multiple places
<seb128> there has been not a lot of user requests for video podcasting support until now
<pwnguin> "until now"
<seb128> I'm not sure what would be the best place for those, totem, rhythmbox
<seb128> a podcast application
<pwnguin> is there actually lots of user requests for it, or are we being generous on my behalf?
<seb128> well in theory I guess than getting video podcast support in rhythmbox shouldn't be too hard
<seb128> it has a video widget already for effects
<seb128> and it's using gstreamer for rendering
<seb128> pwnguin: I'm just considering it as a valid request and something nice to have, not sure how much requests we have for it, not many on lists and launchpad
<pwnguin> i have no particular favorite between banshee or rhythmbox, but rhythmbox currently holds all my ratings
<pwnguin> so im somewhat hostage to their xml
<seb128> somebody wrote on one of those blog comments than banshee can do rhythmbox import now
<seb128> dunno if it imports ratings too though
<directhex> pwnguin, sqlite isn't it, not xml?
<pwnguin> directhex: its very clearly xml
<directhex> seb128, there's an open bug about ratings. afaik it doesn't handle 3-star ratings right now
<directhex> pwnguin, really? that scales?
<directhex> wheeee... xml in one app, embedded mysql in another. aren't media players fun
<seb128> ah good, the gsoc project for rhythmbox syncing has been accepted
<directhex> (amarok for the latter before someone asks)
<pwnguin> directhex: are you arguing that sqllite scales?
<seb128> so maybe ipod syncing will work in karmic in rhythmbox
<pwnguin> ive got a few thousand items in rhythmbox
<pwnguin> probably not the biggest you'll find
<pwnguin> directhex: i think the main point of the day is: everyone benefits when you back up claims with proof :)
<pwnguin> it might be handy to publish some measurements before UDS
<directhex> pwnguin, i don't have enough dodgy music to test scalability well
<directhex> pwnguin, i was under the impression that sql engines, even sqlite, were a bit more scalable than xml, especially for searching (unless the entire xml file is loaded to ram, i suppose)
<directhex> hah! at this moment banshee picks a song for me whose main lyric is "all that i want is keeping it easy"
<directhex> bah, car accident paperwork sucks
<slangasek> I see an extra word in that sentence
<directhex> the car accident sucked in march when it happened. now i'm focused on more immediate concerns
<directhex> like how the courtesy car sucks. and the aforementioned paperwork
<directhex> and i shouldn't be distracting a release manager. NAUGHTY directhex
<directhex> 15 pages down
<directhex> i hope google maps links count as sketches
<rlaager> I'm trying to add support for the Verizon Wireless USB 760 modem. Making it actually work is trivial; it involves adding a new device ID in the right place. However, it has a useless (in Ubuntu) mass storage partition. How might I prevent that from mounting?
<lifeless> rlaager: whats useless about it?
<directhex> windows drivers?
<rlaager> lifeless: It contains the Windows drivers.
<lifeless> ok
<TheMuso> rlaager: I believe there are a lot of these around, and they are tricky to get working right. Keybuk who is not online at the moment would be able to give you the best help I think.
<rlaager> TheMuso: ok. For now I'll focus on getting the four-or-so-character patch for the device ID to the right people.
<rlaager> It turns out I was wrong. The device doesn't show up as *both* types, but magically switches once the mass storage device is ejected. The fix here is the usb-modeswitch package, which is packaged for Debian but is not in Ubuntu.
<rlaager> So, this will obviously have to be a Jaunty+1 thing. Pulling usb-modeswitch into main should be sufficient to make a pile of these devices work out of the box.
<ScottK> rlaager: If it's in Debian, we should get it automatically for the next release.
<rlaager> Yes, in universe. I'd suggest promoting it to main, but I'm not an Ubuntu developer.
<dtchen> rlaager: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MainInclusionReportTemplate
<ScottK> No need to be a developer to suggest it.
<rlaager> I'm going to send some patches upstream. That should help me answer some of those questions.
<pace_t_zulu> has anyone noticed that when you change screen resolutions, panel objects and applets can get disorganized and out of order?
<cody-somerville> Is there a metapackage for mobile-live?
<pwnguin> cody-somerville: the flash UI?
<cody-somerville> No
<cody-somerville> the task
<pwnguin> oh
<pwnguin> im not sure what mobile-live is, but there's ubuntu-netbook-remix and ubuntu-mid
<StevenK> cody-somerville: No, there isn't
<StevenK> cody-somerville: But apt-get install mobile-live^ will pull it in
<cody-somerville> indeed
<cody-somerville> StevenK, Why is gimp in mobile-live?
<cody-somerville> It doesn't seem like something you'd put in the live seed.
<StevenK> It isn't ... ?
<cody-somerville> StevenK, it sure is
<StevenK> % grep -c gimp live
<StevenK> 0
<StevenK> But gimp is in UNR
 * cody-somerville does an apt-get update to see if maybe his cache is out of date
<StevenK> Actually, gimp doesn't appear in the seed lists at all
<cody-somerville> do an apt-get show gimp
<cody-somerville> Task: ubuntu-desktop, edubuntu-desktop, xubuntu-desktop, mobile-live
<cody-somerville> It also appears your meta packages might be out of date, they seem to pull in extra packages that aren't by the tasks
<StevenK> I doubt that
<StevenK> language-support-en Depend gimp-help-en
<StevenK> gimp-help-en      Depend gimp-helpbrowser
<StevenK> gimp              Provides gimp-helpbrowser
<StevenK> There's your answer
<cody-somerville> joy
<cody-somerville> StevenK, I'll know for sure in a little bit
<lfaraone> Hobbsee: think there'd be any way that https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-parted could get into karmic, or has the code bitrotted? (I'm not up-to-date on that)
<Hobbsee> lfaraone: no idea, sorry
<lfaraone> Hobbsee: kk. Upstream corpo went AWOL, I'm not sure what the proper way (in the wider FOSS world, not just in the ubuntu sense) to adopt the project.
<Hobbsee> lfaraone: i've no idea, sorry. Good luck!
<pwnguin> lfaraone: the project's on LP, no? just start a new branch
<pwnguin> err, i misread
<pwnguin> lfaraone: first step is to rebuild it. if it went AWOL by 2006, it may not even build anymore.
<pitti> Good morning
<jdong> cody-somerville: are you involved in the mass updating of the Dell mini repo? I'm trying to find the right people to thank
<cody-somerville> jdong, I am.
<jdong> cody-somerville: thank you so much for your hard work
<jdong> it's quite a pleasant surprise :)
<cody-somerville> I'll be sure to pass that on.
<jdong> thank you, please do :)
<cody-somerville> What do your sources.list look like? (including any files in sources.list.d)
<jdong> I think I pastebinned it here on our Friday discussion
<jdong> the sources.list.d are mostly empty
<cody-somerville> jdong, I think the latest update may have made changes.
<jdong> ah
<jdong> I will check that tomorrow morning
<jdong> I don't have the system on handy access here
<cody-somerville> Ah, okay.
<wgrant> Erm.
<wgrant> Packages mutating sources.list?
<cody-somerville> wgrant, what do you think update-manager does every 6 months?
<wgrant> cody-somerville: That's the release upgrader. I expect it to do that.
<wgrant> I don't expect routine upgrades to do that.
<cody-somerville> Then I guess its a good thing you don't have a dell mini
<ScottK>  ... running something other than Ubuntu.
 * cody-somerville raises an eyebrow.
<ScottK> UNR hardy isn't an Ubuntu repo.  It's a Canonical remix of Ubuntu.
<cody-somerville> Right
<cody-somerville> Thank god thats changed for Jaunty
<ScottK> Although continuing to describe it as a remix seems odd to me given how remix is used in the Trademark policy.
<dholbach> good morning
<cody-somerville> ScottK, Its a remix because it contains bad things I think
<ScottK> The way remix is used in the Trademark policy is as a term for what are essentially minor derivatives.
<ScottK> I don't know enough about what's in it for Jaunty to have a stron opinion.  It just seemed odd.
<ScottK> since it's in the repos.
<ScottK> Anyway, I said I was going to bed a long time ago ....
<ScottK> Good night.
<wgrant> Night ScottK.
<Hobbsee> wgrant: on that mail, i'm going to go with it being something automatix, or automatix-like, fwiw.
<wgrant> Hobbsee: We'll see.
<ajmitch> Hobbsee: with the sid in sources.list?
<Hobbsee> ajmitch: yeah, that's the one
<ajmitch> I wonder what the installer thing for cadsoft does
<liw> any Kubuntu people around? does http://imagebin.org/46426 look normal for the OEM installer's user-setup dialog? I mean, the huge menu at the left
<ajmitch> unless it's something run in wine, it wouldn't surprise me if that were the cause
<pitti> mvo: bug 363465 is a jaunty or intrepid SRU? can you please add appropriate stable tasks?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 363465 in update-manager "grub removed" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/363465
<mvo> pitti: sorry, doing that now (its jaunty)
 * mvo checks the others as well
<pitti> mvo: ah, I see the u-m jaunty-proposed upload, thanks
<pitti> mvo: I'll make sure that this goes in ASAP after release
<mvo> pitti: thanks a lot. I attached logs for all the upgrade ones to shw that they fix the problems in the report
<pitti> mvo: please upload nvidia-common to the queue as well, so that everything is ready on Friday
 * pitti hugs mvo
<mvo> pitti: nvidia-common made into -final :) - but let me check if the bugreport got closed already
<pitti> mvo: ah, nice; no, it was still open
<pitti> mvo: wrt. bug 364583, nice! a friend of mine recently had to upgrade an old feisty of a friend of his', and it was a nightmare
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364583 in update-manager "release no longer supported message missing" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364583
<pitti> apparently he didn't get this "not supported anymore" thing
<mvo> pitti: :(
<pitti> mvo: for those cases, do you think it would be feasible to have update-manager fall back to old-releases.u.c. for such upgrades?
<pitti> I asked him to do that manually in sources.list, but it still failed with u-m, so I had him do dist-upgrade
<mvo> pitti: u-m does not well for old-release.u.c - one problem is that we can no longer do srus for old-release (or can we?)
<pitti> mvo: no, but why would we?
<pitti> mvo: I thought for the feisty->gutsy upgrade it would download u-m from gutsy?
<mvo> pitti: for the "no longer supported" message it would be nice
<pitti> #u-release has been quiet all day
<pitti> oops, ECHAN, sorry
<davmor2> pitti: here's why http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/all
<pitti> davmor2: I bet 3/4 of those are from you! :-)
 * pitti hugs davmor2
<davmor2> :) No only about 3/5 this time lots of other people got involved :)
<cjwatson> rlaager: the trend upstream is to change the kernel to detect the situation and automatically deal with switching the devices around
<cjwatson> rlaager: see the 'option' driver, for instance
<stefanlsd> Does anyone use a macbook for their ubuntu dev stuff? im looking at one and was wondering how / if it works out...?
<mdz> pitti: any guess why apport-collect didn't seem to run the hook on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/364830 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364830 in linux "Regression: USB devices no longer work after docking laptop" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<james_w> you currently have to specify the binary package name when using apport-collect for the kernel
<james_w> the instructions should say "apport-collect -p linux-image-$(uname -r) <bug>" I guess
<mdz> james_w: hmm, I thought pitti fixed that
<pitti> mdz: I special-cased it in ubuntu-bug, but not in apport-collect yet
<pitti> mdz: this is a much more general problem than just "linux", thus I wanted to ponder it a bit more
<pitti> running the source_* hooks is no problem
<pitti> but you won't get any binary package data
<pitti> well, I guess it's not topmost interesting either
<mdz> pitti: I think the same special case as in ubuntu-bug is appropriate in apport-collect
<pitti> bug 350131, FYI
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 350131 in apport "apport-collect does not run source package hooks" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/350131
<mdz> odd that ogasawara documented it without trying it though ;-)
<pitti> mdz: *nod*
<Riddell> liw: that's intended
<PecisDarbs> which I should poke about a bug in Ubuntu Security Notifications RSS feed?
<Laney> jdstrand and kees: ^
<PecisDarbs> jdstrand: Ubuntu Security Notifications RSS feed is nice feature, but it throws everything together without line breaks, which results in ugly mess. Propably one line fix :)
<Le-Chuck_ITA> Hi there. I see an obvious bug that seems to have not been noticed before. Before reporting I'd like to hear from you. When updating the system, dpkg may hang waiting for input from the user, e.g. if a configuration file was "manually" edited (possibly by some system program). In that case, since the terminal window is not expanded, the user can't notice the situation. She just sees a blocked progress bar. As I know my mother, she would
<cjwatson> Le-Chuck_ITA: the terminal window ought to be expanded if we notice an attempted read on the terminal, which indicates something like dpkg waiting for input. mvo put a lot of work into this in the past and it used to work. If it doesn't work now, then that bug should be filed on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/synaptic/+filebug
<cjwatson> (or actually, 'ubuntu-bug synaptic')
<cjwatson> Le-Chuck_ITA: (you don't need to include such extensive justification, by the way; and note that very long lines are cut off on IRC anyway. It's clearly a bug)
<Le-Chuck_ITA> cjwatson: I am trying to reproduce but er... don't know how to downgrade a package (say readahead) to the previous version
<Le-Chuck_ITA> I tried apt-get install readahead=previous_version but it won't find it
<cjwatson> download the .deb file and use dpkg -i
<Le-Chuck_ITA> cjwatson: ok but where's the deb file? Still on the servers?
<cjwatson> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/readahead and follow links
<Le-Chuck_ITA> aaaah thanks cjwatson, I recalled that page but tought it was on the binary package page
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: conf file prompt will be automatically detected without a terminal. it might have been a ucf prompt (but that should use gtk debconf) - if you put the /var/log/dist-upgrade/apt-term.log and main.log somewhere I can have a look
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: I just retry for now.
<wgrant> Le-Chuck_ITA, cjwatson: The source seems to be readahead-list these days.
<Le-Chuck_ITA> wgrant: in fact I was wondering...
<Le-Chuck_ITA> in https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/readahead-list/1:0.20050517.0220-1ubuntu4 I can't find the i386 binary for jaunty...
<wgrant> Le-Chuck_ITA: It was copied from intrepid.
<Le-Chuck_ITA> ok installed the intrepid binary and re-upgraded
<Le-Chuck_ITA> Now I have a popup
<Le-Chuck_ITA> 15 minutes ago I had to open the terminal manually, thing that I can't do now because the popup is blocking focus
<Le-Chuck_ITA> for the terminal window
<Le-Chuck_ITA> so I can't have let the popup unnoticed
<Le-Chuck_ITA> ok they are waiting me for lunch, mvo: later I will give you the files but... hmmm... me dumb, are those overwritten now or are they usually appended?
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: there is a backup copy made into a subdir of /v/l/dist-upgrade/
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: ok I have to hurry up now, see you later
<mvo> see you
<directhex> hm.
<directhex> is there anything special about gtk on ubuntu that could cause "GdkWindow *gdk = parent->GetGdkWindow ();" to throw "Cannot access memory at address 0x7ffeffffffc8"?
<liw> directhex, afaik on ubuntu only the usual reasons apply (i.e., it's a pointer problem in the code; solution: rewrite in Python ;-)
<soren> directhex: It also depends quite a bit on what parent is.
<directhex> soren, "naughty"
<soren> directhex: That's why then :)
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: Hi, what files would you like to see and where should I put them?
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: however we might also conclude that it won't happen anymore.
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: please file a bug against update-manager, attach the full logs (all of /var/log/dist-upgrade) and describe the problem again - I have a look then. thanks!
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: thanks
<lfaraone> pwnguin: just the changelog afaict, it's not a lp project.
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvoLe-Chuck_ITA: there is a backup copy made into a subdir of /v/l/dist-upgrade/
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo I don't have a backup copy there...
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo forget it
<Le-Chuck_ITA> I used tab completion and was trying to find /var/lib/dist-upgrade :)
<lfaraone> pitti: re bug 363759, "ubuntu-bug echo" (the test case I specified) still doesn't work.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 363759 in apport "ubuntu-bug should guess where binaries are located" [Wishlist,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/363759
<lfaraone> pitti: am I missing something? (I'm on 1.0-0ubuntu5)
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: nope: in /var/log/dist-upgrade/apt-term.log I can only see the log of 23 march
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: it's the day I installed ubuntu on this machine
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: was this a fresh install of jaunty with subsequent updates or a intrepid machine that got upgraded via update-manager to jaunty?
<liw> hmm, my desktop machine doesn't want to halt
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: a fresh install of jaunty
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: aha, in this case the log to look at is /var/log/apt/term.log
<pitti> lfaraone: /bin/echo will work
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: ok but now I can't see the log of the first time the terminal didn't open
<pitti> lfaraone: a single word is considered a package name
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: only the second time, when I correctly got a popup
<Le-Chuck_ITA> the two things are clearly related :)
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: the system didn't notice the terminal
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: what package was it that caused it?
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: if you're busy I will open a bug as you told me. Here are the two log lines
<Le-Chuck_ITA> Mi preparo a sostituire readahead 1:0.20050517.0220-1ubuntu4 (con .../readahead_1%3a0.20050517.0220-1ubuntu5_i386.deb) ...
<Le-Chuck_ITA> Spacchetto il sostituto di readahead ...
<Le-Chuck_ITA> (sorry it's in italian)=
<Le-Chuck_ITA> this is the first time
<Le-Chuck_ITA> the second time:
<Le-Chuck_ITA> Configuro readahead (1:0.20050517.0220-1ubuntu5) ...
<Le-Chuck_ITA> File di configurazione `/etc/readahead/boot'
<Le-Chuck_ITA>  ==> Modificato (da te o da uno script) dopo l'installazione.
<Le-Chuck_ITA> [... and the usual prompt follows ...]
<Le-Chuck_ITA> but the first time I found the question in the "folded" terminal
<lfaraone> pitti: I understand, I was proposing for jaunty+1 that we look up the full path-to-binary with "whereis" if it doesn't exist as a package.
<pitti> lfaraone: ah, I see; can you please reopen the bug then?
<lfaraone> pitti: I'll set it to "triaged" if that's OK then.
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: I try to reproduce now
<pitti> lfaraone: right, thanks
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: hm, I get a dialog "replace configuration file" when I test this (as I was expecting :) - you did not get this dialog?
 * mvo tries again with different settings
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: first time, no, second time yes
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: first time, I found the progress bar stuck, and I unfolded the terminal to see what was going on, and I find it waiting for me
<Le-Chuck_ITA> in fact you can see from the logs that the system acted like no question had been asked
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: interessting, that is a bit suprising - could you mail me the log please ( mvo at ubuntu.com) ?
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo done
<mvo> thanks Le-Chuck_ITA
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: thank you for taking a look at them
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: looking at the log it seems like something releated to acroread caused this maybe? did you get it from mediaubuntu (I ask to see if I can get more info about it)
<Le-Chuck_ITA> let me check. I think it can't upgrade because it overwrites a file from an ubuntu package
<lfaraone> pitti: if I wanted to implement that functionality, I should just write a patch for the next version of apport rather than adding that functionality in the debian package.
<lfaraone> pitti: right
<lfaraone> *?
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: in fact, the second time I disabled acroread!
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: will now check with acroread enabled, again
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo the reason why acroread can't be installed is because it overwrites a file in acroread-debian-files, which is part of medibuntu too
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: bingo. I have the hanged progress bar in front of me
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: execllent, if you expand that now, that is the last that is written there?
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: in the dialog window, I see the italian for "executing post-install command for man-db". In the terminal window, I see error messages for acroread, that possibly defeat recognition of an input request, and then the usual question wether to replace conffiles. Let me pastebin it
<Le-Chuck_ITA> woops, did you know what ctrl+c does there? :)
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: http://paste.ubuntu.com/155913/
<Ampelbein> Le-Chuck_ITA, mvo: the acroread-issue is known: bug 359518
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 359518 in acroread "acroread failed to update in 8.10" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/359518
<mvo> Ampelbein: thanks, I'm trying to figure out why this confuses synaptic to not show the conffile prompt
 * Le-Chuck_ITA admires the ability of mvo to summarise a problem
 * mvo scratches his head, makes more tea and collects the required deb packages to reproduce the problem
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: will you be around for a bit longer? there are some debug switch to try, but first I try to reproduce it here
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: yes I'll be around
<Le-Chuck_ITA> otherwise I am vincenzo_ml on launchpad, and vincenzo_ml at yahoo dot it in the rest of the world :)
<LaserJock> slangasek: is arranging for Edubuntu mirrors something I have to do?
<slangasek> LaserJock: well, it's not required, certainly; but it's not likely to happen otherwise, if that's what you mean
<LaserJock> slangasek: right
<LaserJock> slangasek: when was this decided? It's a bit of a shock tbh
<LaserJock> slangasek: I can understand needing the space though
<slangasek> LaserJock: when it was determined that UNR needed to fit on there because it's being heavily promoted, and it was seen that this was going to increase our mirror footprint beyond the target size - which we noticed shortly before RC
<LaserJock> slangasek: k
<LaserJock> slangasek: do you happen to know if it's still supported by Canonical then?
<slangasek> LaserJock: I don't have an answer to that, sorry.  The placement on cdimage vs. releases is orthogonal to support
<LaserJock> slangasek: ok, thanks
<LaserJock> slangasek: do you have a deadline for the release announcement?
<LaserJock> slangasek: considering the number of changes we made this release we really should have one
<slangasek> LaserJock: tomorrow at 11:00 UTC
<LaserJock> slangasek: ok
<LaserJock> slangasek: thanks for the info, we'll get something put together
<slangasek> great, thanks :)
<cjwatson> slangasek: sorry for the delay - looking at your release notes changes now
<slangasek> cjwatson: okie
<savvas> release notes are changed?
<savvas> hrm, back to translating :p
<cjwatson> expect frequent changes, I'm afraid
<cjwatson> hopefully not major, but ...
<savvas> sure, no problem :)
<savvas> do you happen to have the wiki link?
<slangasek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyJackalope/ReleaseNotes
<savvas> thank you!
<slangasek> you may want to subscribe to the page, if you're a translator :)
<savvas> that's a good idea - I didn't do much of the work in /el, I'm just the guy that notifies the person who volunteered to translate it :)
<cjwatson> slangasek: ok, largely looks fine, I made some style changes
<slangasek> cjwatson: ok, thanks
<slangasek> cjwatson: since when does 'apt-get purge' work, though?
<slangasek> (nice that it does - it's just news to me)
<LaserJock> slangasek: would it be possible to get the Edubuntu .iso on the torrent tracker?
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: hm, no luck here to reproduce, could you please run "sudo apt-get dist-upgrade -o Debug::pkgDPkgProgress=true" and mail me the output please?
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: and in what repo is acroread9 ?
<cjwatson> slangasek: apt 0.7.7, Oct 2007
<slangasek> cjwatson: er, wow
<slangasek> where has the time gone
<cjwatson> well, that's when it was fixed to actually work; I think it was added before that
<cjwatson> I only noticed its existence recently
<slangasek> LaserJock: do you mean in advance of the release?
<ogra> slangasek, he indeed meand for the release
<ogra> *meant
<slangasek> all of the release ISOs are supposed to end up on the torrent tracker, TTBOMK
<LaserJock> slangasek: ok
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: acroread9 is in medibuntu
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: did you manage to have a package that overwrites somebody's else file?
<Le-Chuck_ITA> I see it must fail *before* readahead
<slangasek> LaserJock, ogra: confirmed, http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/releases/jaunty/rc/edubuntu-9.04-rc-addon-amd64.iso.torrent works fine
<ogra> good
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: in console, the order of unpacking is reversed
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: I don't see it here http://packages.medibuntu.org/pool/non-free/a/acroread/
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: me dumb
<Le-Chuck_ITA> http://archive.canonical.com jaunty/partner acroread 9.1.0-7jaunty1
<Le-Chuck_ITA> that's the output from apt
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: execllent, thanks
<LaserJock> slangasek: should we make both a release announcement (single paragraph or so) and release notes?
<LaserJock> RichEd was the one that's been doing this stuff for the last couple releases, I'm not positive what all needs to be done
<slangasek> LaserJock: the release announcement is ideally something stand-alone that I can link to from <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyJackalope/ReleaseAnnouncement>, Ã  la the other flavors
<slangasek> (the release announcement for final is always heavily trimmed)
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: rock! reproducable
 * Le-Chuck_ITA parties 
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: shall I open a bug report?
<Le-Chuck_ITA> tjaalton: if possible the fact that Xorg crashes when wacom entries are there should be in the release notes... I bet that most people will copy their xorg.conf and go crazy.
<Le-Chuck_ITA> tjaalton: where "most" people is referred to the few that use a tablet with ubuntu :)
<tjaalton> Le-Chuck_ITA: on the way
<tjaalton> later this evening
<Le-Chuck_ITA> tjaalton: thanks
<mvo> Le-Chuck_ITA: please do, I'm debugging it currently
<slangasek> pitti: 321404> I don't think that's the right answer.  If cdbs is going to symlink changelogs around, then cdbs should enforce the package deps too
<pitti> well, we can't do the latter
<pitti> so all we could do is to not symlink at all
<pitti> and I still refuse to accept that we should sacrice several MBs on the CDs to support a small (and unsupported) corner case which is only interesting to developers anyway
<pitti> (corner case being partial upgrades)
<slangasek> why can't you do the latter?
<pitti> slangasek: cdbs automatically add versions do dependencies?
<slangasek> just populate ${misc:Depends}?
<pitti> then (1) we'd destroy the very corner case that this bug is all about in the first place, and second
<pitti> (2) people would rightfully grill me for doing dependency changes behind their backs
<Keybuk> pitti: is the retracer working today?
<slangasek> heh
<slangasek> pitti: you can direct those people to me then :)
<seb128> Keybuk: it keeps crashing on launchpadlib bugs apparently
<pitti> Keybuk: it had several failures, seems that something in Launchpad changed again to make launchpadlib fall over; but it should catch up
<Keybuk> pitti: any way you can prod one through a bit faster
<pitti> slangasek: do you really think that this is such an importnat issue?
<Keybuk> we're tying to debug why I don't receive crash mails
<pitti> Keybuk: sure, which #?
<seb128> Keybuk: because you don't get emails about private bugs and crash are private
<slangasek> pitti: I think having /usr/share/doc/$pkg/changelog.Debian.gz actually *be the changelog for the package that's installed* is an important invariant, yes
<Keybuk> pitti: #365126
<Keybuk> seb128: mdz claims you do ;)
<Keybuk> you specifically, in fact
<seb128> no you don't
<pitti> slangasek: well, as I said, the only other option that I see is to not symlink changelog.Debian.gz then
<seb128> that's something which is annoying me for years
<mdz> seb128: I assumed since you reply to them
<seb128> I'm polling on apport-crash tagged but by the launchpad UI every week
<slangasek> pitti: I think you're far too quick to rule out having cdbs enforce the dep
<seb128> mdz: ^
<seb128> but -> bugs
<slangasek> if cdbs can mangle the package contents in this manner, there's no reason it can't also mangle the package metadata to match
<pitti> slangasek: technically it can
<pitti> slangasek: but what would you gain?
<seb128> mdz: you can see those in the web interface but you don't get emails, we are looking manually to this list regularly
<pitti> you'd loose the ability to do partial upgrades (for the binaries of a source package)
<sistpoty|work> slangasek: btw.: duplicate of bug 194574 :P
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 194574 in cdbs "can cause broken symlinks in /usr/share/doc" [Low,Won't fix] https://launchpad.net/bugs/194574
<slangasek> pitti: not being confused all to hell by packages that are behaving in a way that's inconsistent with what the changelog says
<seb128> mdz: you just get an email when somebody is marking the bug public, which bug triagers try to do
<seb128> Keybuk: ^
<pitti> Keybuk: it's already retraced
<pitti> Keybuk: (2 minutes ago)
<slangasek> pitti: having fewer opportunities for partial upgrades is not something I'm bothered by, when those partial upgrades cause (minor, but still annoying) breakage
<slangasek> the rule isn't "support partial upgrades with as much granularity as possible", it's "ensure that any time a partial upgrade succeeds, the packages are actually in a proper state"
<pitti> slangasek: it will cause a higher number of held-back packages for version skew between arch all/any, but that's not too bad, I think
<soren> What if we changed cdbs the other way around and only let it do the symlink thing if the dependency was appropriately versioned?
<slangasek> soren: that would cost us CD space, as pitti pointed out
<pitti> soren: that woudl basically be equal to "never"
<soren> pitti: Ah.
<pitti> applications link to libraries by shlibs versions, not package versions
<soren> slangasek: I have no idea about the scale of that?
<slangasek> apparently, "large enough" :)
<soren> pitti: Er.. Huh?
<soren> pitti: Oh, I get it.
<pitti> soren: few packages do Depends: libfoo (= ${source:version}
<pitti> which is what cdbs would need to add to enforce changelog consistency
<chrisccoulson> hey slangasek, i just noticed you added a u-r-n task to bug 361205
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 361205 in tracker "Tracker uses notifications with actions when the index is corrupt" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/361205
<chrisccoulson> do you think bug 359207 should be mentioned in the release notes too?
<pitti> chrisccoulson: just discussing in #u-release
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 359207 in tracker "tracker starts indexing when removable media is inserted, even when indexing is disabled" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/359207
<slangasek> chrisccoulson: yes; we were just discussing this on #ubuntu-release
<pitti> chrisccoulson: we should document the effect and workaround
<pitti> chrisccoulson: do you think it's still on track for an early SRU?
<pitti> it's only an issue for upgrades
<soren> pitti: Is the /usr/share/doc/$pkg symlinked or are the individual files symlinked?
<chrisccoulson> slangasek + pitti - i just sent a patch upstream to fix the removable media issue, and it has now been committed to git
<pitti> so if we can SRU it early, it won't hit so many people
<slangasek> 359207> hmm, that seems less in need of release-noting, IMHO
<chrisccoulson> so we can do a SRU quite early for that one
<pitti> soren: individual files, since dpkg's handling of symlinks vs. directories is a bit special and would wreak havoc too often
<rlaager> cjwatson: I see that the option driver supports the device I have, but I'm not seeing where it does the switching.
<soren> pitti: Ok.
<Le-Chuck_ITA> mvo: bug #365129
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 365129 in update-manager "update-manager does not pop up a question correctly in some cases" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/365129
 * pitti tries to understand Keybuk's conclusion in the test bug
<kees> PecisDarbs: it's, unfortunately, not a one line fix.  :(  We will be addressing it after Jaunty releases, though.  It's been a long-standing blemish.  :)
<pitti> chrisccoulson: mind to review https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyJackalope/ReleaseNotes#Tracker%20index%20corruption ?
<magcius> Would some people mind helping me with the notify-osd codebase?
<joaopinto> magcius, is that about the notify-osd-better project ?
<magcius> joaopinto, yes :(
<chrisccoulson> pitti - that's mostly ok, but the more "official" workaround would be to run "tracker-processes -r". that will kill all tracker related processes, and delete all info in ~/.cache/tracker and ~/.local/share/tracker too, all in one go
<pitti> chrisccoulson: even better, thanks
<chrisccoulson> no problem
<pitti> that doesn't even need a session restart, right?
<magcius> joaopinto, I have some stuff working but I'm having difficulty understanding "stack.c"
<pitti> chrisccoulson: wiki updated
<joaopinto> magcius, I would like to see a description on the project, like, why is it "better" and why have you decided to fork the notify-osd instead of improving it
<chrisccoulson> pitti - thanks
<magcius> joaopinto, design differences.
<magcius> Like the image scaling and multiple notifications at one time.
<rtg> superm1: are you aware of any Ricoh SD host driver quirks? I've a SanDisk 16GB SDHC that works in a XPS1330, but won't in an Inspiron 1420. AFAICT the SD/MMC parts are identical.
<magcius> joaopinto, if they ever change these design decisions, I'll be glad to let them merge it back into the original codebase.
<joaopinto> magcius, using "better" in a project name to describe a different design decision is not very friendly
<magcius> joaopinto, it's meant to address the things that the community doesn't like about notify-osd.
<joaopinto> your fork may be better according to your view/goals, while the current main project is better according to it's own goals/perspective
<magcius> Well, what should I rename it?
<joaopinto> something that matches with your changes ? or just some codename ?
<LaserJock> notify-osd-meilleur ? :-)
<joaopinto> is that better in some other language ?
<joaopinto> :P
<magcius> notification-osd
<magcius> :P
<magcius> notify-daemon
<LaserJock> joaopinto: french I think
<magcius> vowel
<magcius> (pun on growl)
<magcius> iunno
<magcius> yano? (yet another notify-osd?)
<joaopinto> magcius, have you tried to contact the notify-osd team about your improvements ?
<magcius> joaopinto, I talked to people in #ubuntu+1 and they say that the design decisions are final. :(
<LaserJock> magcius: final for Jaunty
<magcius> LaserJock, that's not what I heard them say.
<joaopinto> magcius, we are on a final phase, that's kind of obvious
<LaserJock> magcius: you really should go to the source though, #ubuntu+1 isn't exactly authoritative (not that they are necessarily wrong)
<magcius> LaserJock, is the notify-osd team on a channel somewhere here?
<LaserJock> not sure where they're hanging out these days, you could ask tedg or mpt in #ubuntu-desktop
<LaserJock> https://lists.canonical.com/mailman/listinfo/ayatana-project might also be helpful
<Pici> #ayatana exists
<LaserJock> ah, I wondered
<tedg> magcius: #ayatana
<magcius> ayatana?
<LaserJock> magcius: that's the name for the overall project in Canonical
<magcius> Oh, ayatana is the codename for the Ubuntu Desktop Experience project?
<LaserJock> I think so
<Hobbsee> yes
<pacejr> is anyone willing to guess on whether or not 2.6.31 will be included in 9.10? Along with the whole updated radeon stack that's being guinea-pigged on F11?
<pacejr> R300-R500 users are left in a bit of a bind, since fglrx dropped support and won't work with the X server in jaunty, but the new radeon stuff isn't going to hit the end user for a while
<arpu> hello
<arpu> i cannot mount my cdrom
<arpu> Apr 22 17:02:39 arpu-jipiiiibox kernel: [42701.940393] sr 0:0:0:0: [sr0] Add. Sense: Illegal mode for this track
<arpu> Apr 22 17:02:39 arpu-jipiiiibox kernel: [42701.940404] end_request: I/O error, dev sr0, sector 1248
<arpu> Apr 22 17:02:39 arpu-jipiiiibox kernel: [42701.943970] sr 0:0:0:0: [sr0] Result: hostbyte=DID_OK driverbyte=DRIVER_SENSE
<arpu> Apr 22 17:02:39 arpu-jipiiiibox kernel: [42701.943978] sr 0:0:0:0: [sr0] Sense Key : Illegal Request [current]
<stephen_> Hi.
<steveire> I'm looking for info on the netbook remix. I'm installing kubuntu and I want to make sure I get the same benefits that the netbook remix brings ubuntu. Does it use a different kernel, or ext4 by default or something?
<steveire> http://www.canonical.com/projects/ubuntu/unr <<< This page only says the ui is different, but it doesn't have any technical details.
<ogra> mvo, an intresting question just came up in #ubuntu-server ... does the cdromupgrade script work in non gui mode ?
<ogra> evand, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/img-writing-from-usb-creator
<evand> ogra: Thanks.  Have you seen this one: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-usb-creator-for-windows
<ogra> heh, have you seen https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Win32DiskImager ?
<evand> heh, "I see you a spec and raise you a wiki page"
<ogra> its the tool we promote for UNR and MID images ... written by the son of one of the mobile team guys
<evand> I hadn't seen it, but davidm mentioned it
<ogra> ah, ok
<ogra> we hsould probably just build on top of that
<evand> I'd like to see us create windows and mac backends to usb-creator and use pygtk for the frontends
<ogra> aww
<ogra> that will get you huge dependency installs
<evand> I'm refactoring the usb-creator code at the moment, but it's already well core/ui split
<evand> not really
<evand> py2win or cx_freeze make pretty small binaries
<evand> I believe
<ogra> well, the redhat liveusb-creator thing uses pyqt
<ogra> the download is something like 30M
<ogra> why not have generic C based backends and native frontends ?
<evand> yikes.  Definitely not that big for pygtk, as I understand it, but as I told davidm, we could use Wubi's winui, which is a layer on top of ctypes to create MFC windows UI
<ogra> yeah, that sounds closer to what i imagine
<evand> I prefer writing in python.  It's easier to debug and especially easier to work with hal/dbus.
<ogra> me too, but it always brings you the dependency probs on other OSes
<ogra> but up to you anyway, since you are likely the one implementing it
<evand> I think we can get them quite small with py2exe or a similar program
<evand> heh, indeed :)
<ogra> i'm only shameless promoter of whatever you write to get my images to people :)
<evand> lol, duly noted
<davidm> we have talked about this here in millbank, but I don't want to see a 30 meg download that is for sure.....
<calc> will karmic be open for uploads next week? (the schedule seems to imply this)
 * ogra would give it a week more by experience based on former releases
<ogra> until the new toolchain is built and in place
<calc> oh yea
 * calc wants to get OOo 3.1 in as early as possible
<calc> esp since i am moving to oem end of next week
<ogra> upload it before the toolchain is built then :P
<calc> ogra: i will if it doesn't cause anyone to scream ;-)
<cjwatson> ogra: is bug 353196 important enough to need a release note?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 353196 in apex "ixp4xx hwclock command stopped to work since beta release" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/353196
<cjwatson> ogra: (I don't know what previous experience you have, but mine is that it's open well within a week)
<calc> it will only be OOo 3.1 rc2 at that point anyway so will need rebuild several times later at minimum anyway so will get plenty of toolchain testing
<cjwatson> people always seem to massively overestimate opening time for some reason
<ogra> cjwatson, well, it would be worth to people wanting a proper clock setting :)
<calc> cjwatson: people being overly anxious to upload new crack ;-)
<cjwatson> ogra: can you open a task on ubuntu-release-notes and suggest some text, please?
<ogra> (the bug that is)
<calc> like watching water boil :)
<Riddell> steveire: yo
<cjwatson> Jaunty opened for development on 4 Nov, five days after release. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2008-November/000510.html
<cjwatson> Intrepid opened for development on 2 May, eight days after release. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2008-May/000424.html
<ogra> and it took a week until we had a usable toolchain, no ?
<cjwatson> Hardy opened for development on 24 Oct, six days after release. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2007-October/000348.html
<cjwatson> ogra: err, we don't send the "open for development" mails until we have a usable toolchain
<ogra> oh
<calc> so does the new toolchain get tested by rebuilding the whole archive privately or something like that?
<Riddell> steveire: it's release day tomorrow so people may be busy, what's your interest?
<cjwatson> Gutsy opened for development on 26 Apr, seven days after release. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2007-April/000285.html
<cjwatson> calc: yes
<calc> ok
<cjwatson> or at least so I understand it, doko tends to handle all this pretty quietly :)
<cjwatson> doko: ^- (how's it going?)
<Riddell> steveire: the likes of lool, ogra, persia, NCommander and others are probably good to ask about UNR
<directhex> cjwatson, people overestimate opening time because they subconsciously add freeze time to it
 * NCommander waves
<Riddell> steveire: or there's a #ubuntu-mobile channel
<ogra> steveire, and we tend to hang around in #ubuntu-mobile :)
<cjwatson> directhex: it annoys me because I've been personally putting vast effort into getting it open really quickly for the last several releases, and yet people continue to say it takes multiple weeks
<cjwatson> when it just plain doesn't
<broonie> Where would I expect to find people working on the Ubuntu ARM kernels?
<lool> broonie: Probably on #ubuntu-kernel or -arm
<directhex> cjwatson, sadly it's inevitable
<lool> Depends what you'd like to ask
<directhex> oh, anyone know how to generate -dbgsym packages with pbuilder?
<cjwatson> directhex: I'm not going to stop calling people on it
<mvo_> ogra: yes
<broonie> lool: Thanks.
<ogra> mvo_, already solved :)
<lool> directhex: I'd guess that you need to install the relevant package; I'd be curious to hear how it works
<directhex> cjwatson, i never said you should stop, i said it's inevitable!
<lool> pkg-create-dbgsym would be the one I guess
<doko> cjwatson: wanted to address this in today's platform meeting ...
<mvo_> ogra: just out of curisosity, it should detect that it needs text mode automatically, was that not working?
<mvo_> ogra:  who was it that came up with the question?
 * calc hugs cjwatson for ensuring new releases open on time :)
<infinity> doko: Speaking of...
<infinity> doko: Which architectures did you want that toolchain test on?  And is the version in your PPA now the one you actually want tested?
<infinity> doko: (And does it come with a shiny gcc-defaults to match too?)
<ogra> mvo_, pmatulis
<mvo_> ogra: thanks, I will ask him for more details
<cjwatson> doko: can we address it here and now? :-)
<cjwatson> infinity: meep, it hasn't started?
<directhex> lool, it looks simple-ish. testing
<doko> infinity: shiny gcc-defaults just uploaded
<infinity> cjwatson: Nein.
<doko> infinity: the gcc-4.4 package is ok for the test rebuild
<infinity> cjwatson: But if it's just main on $fast_arch, it won't really take that long.
<doko> infinity: archs: i386, maybe lpia
<infinity> doko: I don't deal in maybes. :)
<lool> directhex: There's the EXTRAPACKAGES option in pbuilderrc to add such packages permanently
<doko> infinity: archs: i386 lpia
<infinity> doko: Alrighty.  I'll make that a priority today.
<directhex> lool, yes, at "pbuilder create" time. and i need to make sure it actually works
<doko> infinity: thanks
<lool> directhex: It works on updates too
<steveire> Riddell: Aha, I was looking for #ubuntu-netbook and such... Cheers.
<infinity> cjwatson: What else is on the opener TODO list for me?  I've got "test rebuild of new toolchain, karmic chroots, and karmic livefs environments"... The latter two obviously happening once the rebuild is in swing.
<directhex> lool, confirmed as working btw
<doko> cjwatson: well, I'd like to look at the rebuild first, and then decide, if we switch to 4.4 now, or better a bit later
<lool> directhex: Cool
<ogra> cjwatson, bug updated with task and text ... if you need more from me, shout now, else i'll go for the day
<cjwatson> infinity: test rebuild absolutely top priority, that's probably most of it
<cjwatson> I think most of the rest is ours
<cjwatson> ogra: that's fine, thanks
<calc> can i create a repo of this type on launchpad?: Shared repository with trees (format: pack-0.92)
<ogra> ok, i wasnt sure there wasnt more ARM stuff on your list, but i'll be around tomorrow morning if there is more
<calc> it appears that type of repo allows multiple sub repos under it, looking at how bzr works on debian anyway.
<cjwatson> calc: Launchpad deals in terms of individual branches; you can certainly push up a branch in that form, and it will work fine, although the whole repository won't get pushed up to LP
<calc> cjwatson: ah ok
<cjwatson> mvo__: bug 364620 looks as if it could do with a release note?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364620 in update-manager "guidance-power-manager remains installed for 8.04 -> 9.04 Kubuntu Upgrade" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364620
 * calc had hoped that worked around the individual branch limitation of lp
<cjwatson> calc: read up on stacked branches
<cjwatson> calc: https://help.launchpad.net/LaunchpadReleases/2.1.10
<cjwatson> oh, and indeed
<cjwatson> calc: http://blog.launchpad.net/cool-new-stuff/stacked-branches-holding-post
<mvo__> cjwatson: yes, I add some (there is a sru for this pending already)
<calc> ok
<cjwatson> calc: of course this depends on whether there's something sensible you can set as the development focus branch
<cjwatson> calc: we have a proper namespace for source package branches in Launchpad now, which we're going to start using RSN
<cjwatson> calc: kiko thinks that stacked branches should work with this - i.e. you'll be able to say that the Ubuntu karmic openoffice.org branch is the development focus and push branches stacked on that
<cjwatson> but we'll need to test this since we haven't really started using source package branches yet
<calc> ok
<cjwatson> mvo__: ok, thanks, I've created an ubuntu-release-notes task
<calc> really what i had wanted when i was working on the split build (which is postponed now) was a way to have partial checkouts, or some other way to group related package-wise branches together, that aren't actually related from a scm point of view
<cjwatson> lool: does bug 364621 require a release note, or even a respin to remove that option?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364621 in ubuntu-mid-default-settings "Ubuntu MID OEM install doesn't work" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364621
<mvo__> cjwatson: thanks
<calc> so i would have one openoffice.org split build top level branch that 15 or so subdirs i could pull out separately, which can be done in subversion already, not sure about other scm's
<doko> infinity: bah, archive too big, I've put the package on chinstrap:~doko. See question #68267. have to run now
<cjwatson> lool: and is bug 364623 important?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 364623 in linux "sr0 I/O errors in qemu armel/versatile" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/364623
<infinity> doko: Okay.  The import will take a while anyway.  I'll ping you later if I run into any pitfalls.
<mvo__> Riddell: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyJackalope/ReleaseNotes?action=diff&rev2=61&rev1=60 <- ok ?
<directhex> what should sizeof (GdkNativeWindow) be?
<mdz> lool: is there any reason bug 364516 needs to stay private?
<ubottu> Bug 364516 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/364516 is private
<mdz> lool: it's your gvfs-fuse-daemon crash on armel, I assume the coredump doesn't have any private data
<mdz> I don't expect there is an apport retracer for armel yet, so it will stay private indefinitely unless we just make it public
<mdz> lool: if you agree, please go ahead and make it public when you get this message
<cjwatson> directhex: I believe it's typedeffed to guint32 on Linux, so 4
<directhex> cjwatson, even on amd64?
<cjwatson> directhex: apparently
<cjwatson> it's an x window id or something not a pointer, AFAICS
<mdz> bdmurray: I got the following numbers for the past 30 days:
<mdz>  9% apport automated crash reports
<mdz>  5% apport automated package failure reports
<mdz> 10% apport automated kernel bug reports
<mdz> 17% apport manual bug reports
<mdz> 56% non-apport
<mdz> that's just a simple scan of the tags (apport-crash, apport-package, apport-kerneloops, apport-bug)
<bdmurray> mdz: out of how many bugs?
<mdz> bdmurray: that's out of 7094 bug tasks
<mdz> (it counts tasks rather than bugs)
<bdmurray> mdz: right, that makes sense
<bdmurray> mdz: I'd neglected the kerneloops ones in my counting - thanks for the reminder
<calc> ouch 56% non-apport :\
<bdmurray> calc: its better than before!
<directhex> cjwatson, GdkNativeWindow is typedeffed to either gpointer or guint32, depending on whether GDK_NATIVE_WINDOW_POINTER is defined
<calc> bdmurray: just turn off web submission... :-)
 * calc wonders what percentage of non-apport bugs are actually useful
<cjwatson> directhex: yes, and GDK_NATIVE_WINDOW_POINTER is (AFAICS) only defined on Windows
<directhex> cjwatson, a header in the app i'm trying to debug has
<directhex> #if GLIB_SIZEOF_VOID_P == 8
<directhex> #define GDK_NATIVE_WINDOW_POINTER 1
<directhex> #endif
<cjwatson> haha, err
 * cjwatson runs away
<directhex> cjwatson, yeah, i know ^_^
<directhex> i wish i didn't suck with C
<Riddell> mvo: good with me thanks
<NCommander> hey cjwatson, you got a minute between now and release to chat about PowerPC releasability (I doubt its possible for jaunty (although the images I've tested thus far work great aside from some minor usplash bugs with NVIDIA hardware) but I'd like to have a roadmap in place for karmic)
<LaserJock> is the DC getting hit very hard yet? some ubuntu sites are bit slow
<elmo> LaserJock: no
<LaserJock> slangasek: http://www.edubuntu.org/news/9.04-release exists
<cjwatson> NCommander: if it seems to basically work now, why shouldn't we release it? that's about all the standard we apply to ports ...
<NCommander> cjwatson, works for me :-)
<cjwatson> NCommander: it won't go on releases.ubuntu.com, but that's just a mirroring consideration, that doesn't govern whether it's "released" or not
<NCommander> cjwatson, no, I know (same reason ports isn't on the normal mirror network)
<LaserJock> slangasek: is it ok if I edit the release announcement wiki page to include Edubuntu?
#ubuntu-devel 2009-04-23
<LaserJock> jcastro: ping
<slangasek> LaserJock: yes, thanks
<LaserJock> slangasek: done, thanks
<lamont> do-release-upgrade -d  --mode=server
<lamont> Checking for a new ubuntu release
<lamont> No new release found
<lamont> why does it hate me so?
<wgrant> lamont: Which release?
<lamont> ia64 with intrepid installed, pointed at a "reasonably current" mirror of the world
<wgrant> Ah. ia64.
<lamont> yeah.  ports
<wgrant> It should still be using the same meta-release-development, though, I would think.
<lamont> well, given that they're all forced by the local proxy to the same place, and that has the same file for all of them, yeah
<lamont> so it claims jaunty
<lamont> supported: 0 though
<wgrant> That's fine.
<lamont> http://paste.ubuntu.com/156288/
<lamont> wtf.  how did I get an intrepid version of that file
<lamont> wgrant: a well placed rm meta-release-development fixed it.
<wgrant> lamont: Hmm. It sends appropriate cache headers.
<lamont> well... there's some horrific abuse in the way the local mirror is tied into it all, and it coughed up an intrepid file before I freshened it... so let's go with PEBCAK
<wgrant> Right.
<wgrant> That sounds convenient.
<lamont> well, no way in hell _I'M gonna campaign to re-roll _anything_ at this point
<geofft> do-release-upgrade really doesn't have a man page?
<wgrant> geofft: I noticed that... it has a --help, though.
<wgrant> It sounds like it deserves a bug report.
<geofft> what's the difference between -m desktop and -m server, anyway?
<wgrant> geofft: Possibly different hints.
<geofft> Hm. I download the updater .tar.gz and look at DistUpgradeMain.py...
<geofft> help=_("*DEPRECATED* this option will be ignore")
<geofft> Is there a better way to see what extra stuff do-release-upgrade does beyond dist-upgrade, or should I continue to UTSL?
<magcius> Guys! I got multiple message support working in notify-osd!
<lifeless> StevenK: hoist a brew for me at the release party
<StevenK> lifeless: You can't make it?
<lifeless> StevenK: I'm booked already tonight and slug is friday
<StevenK> Release party is Saturday
<lifeless> oh
<lifeless> thats right :)
<lifeless> we'll see, I have some things happening saturday, but will try
<chris062689> Is this the correct channel to go to if you need help package DEBs?
<lifeless> no
<chris062689> Which channel should I go to?
<lifeless> #ubuntu-motu is a good place to learn about packaging
<dholbach> good morning
<tjaalton> how come the -security uploads are not shown on *-changes?
<soren> tjaalton: For security reasons, of course.
<soren> Hahah!
 * soren crawls back under his rock
<pitti> Good morning
 * slangasek waves
<mdke> happy release day :)
<slangasek> indeed!
<tjaalton> slangasek: would you like me to edit the relnotes wiki directly, or add the wacom entry as a comment to the bug?
<slangasek> tjaalton: either is fine; the latter ensures we don't have to worry about getting in the way of each other's edits
<tjaalton> slangasek: ok, I'll do that then
<directhex> merry releasemas!
<tjaalton> asac: firefox creating huge (4GB) sparse files on NFS sound familiar to you?-)
<asac> tjaalton: not really ;)
<asac> tjaalton: a sqlite db?
<tjaalton> asac: formhistory.sqlite.. I was equally surprised
<tjaalton> no idea how to reproduce, but some users have had that
<liw> are sparse files problematic on nfs?
<tjaalton> I'm not sure
<tjaalton> might be an nfs boog
<geofft> is this new with Jaunty or some new Firefox version?
<tjaalton> geofft: no, with hardy
<tjaalton> at least I believe it was
<sabdfl> happy release day, all
<ogra> sabdfl, to you too :)
<ion_> Congrats
<pitti> hey sabdfl, and to you!
<directhex> it's a sabdfl!
<sabdfl> life and kicking
<sabdfl> err... liVe and kicking
<davmor2> Congratulations Everybody and here's to the next release
<tseliot> happy release :-)
 * pitti goes to pre-review the ton of SRU
<slangasek> pitti: yay :)
<mdz> calc: that 56% is down from 63% for March
<slangasek> wow, is that a percentage of new bugs or of all bugs?
<ogra> we have bugs ?
<directhex> debian-with-bugs!
<directhex> pitti, i want an SRU for something. should i arrange for an 0ubuntu2 to be uploaded directly, or wait for karmic, sync -3 into karmic, and request that be used for the sru?
<pitti> directhex: I'd advise to upload 0ubuntu1.1 as an SRU now
<pitti> unless you really meant -3, and not ubuntu3
<directhex> i meant -3
<pitti> then 0ubuntu2 is okay
<directhex> so "do it now" then
<directhex> debdiff time!
<pitti> yes, please prepare the bug for SRU, and upload to the queue
<directhex> 1.0.1-0ubuntu1.1 is the correct versioning for an sru?
<pitti> directhex: it's a valid one; it's not the only correct one
<pitti> the main point is to avoid version clashes with karmic uploads
<directhex> i'll requestsync it for karmic as soon as it opens
 * tonyyarusso would like to briefly remind sabdfl, slangasek, and anyone else who may care that we are using #ubuntu-release-party again for Jaunty.  Remember to have fun today!
<directhex> i still think thursday releases suffer from an inherent party-related flaw
<cjwatson> Friday releases suffer from an inherent don't-release-and-then-disappear-for-the-weekend bug :-)
<cjwatson> (oh, and they also tend to result in missing news cycles)
<heno> and give less wiggle-room
<directhex> releases full stop suffer from an inherent don't-release-then-get-drunk bug
<directhex> solution: debian ;)
<LaserJock> directhex: I don't know, if it took me that long to get a release out I'd want to get drunk for a long while
<directhex> LaserJock, could always ban security teams from attending parties...
<directhex> okay, i have a debdiff. now to do the SRU paperwork
<directhex> hm. for an SRU i can't upload myself, do i hunt for a regular motu to upload it first, or go straight for a motu-sru person to take care of the lot?
<pitti> directhex: oh, I thought you were motu
<pitti> directhex: subscribe motu-sru for approval
<pitti> directhex: AFAIR, motu-sru wants to ack universe SRUs before upload anyway
<directhex> pitti, i'm just a lowly contributor. not even formally a member of any kind yet (though i now have a handy wiki page for people to leave me glowing testimonials)
<directhex> pitti, i've subscribed motu-sru, and i'll poke cody-sommerville when he wakes (spoke with him yesterday about this bug)
<Keybuk> gnargh!
<Keybuk> setlocale() is not malloc()-safe
<liw> hm?
<wretched_dutchma> hello,
<wretched_dutchma> can anyone tell me were I can suggest new programs for future ubuntu releases??
<directhex> wretched_dutchma, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
<wretched_dutchma> thank you :)
<slangasek> superm1: how much lead-time do you need for http://mythbuntu.org/9.04/release to go live?
<slangasek> TheMuso, luisbg: same question, regarding getting 9.04 on http://ubuntustudio.org/downloads
<Ampelbein> pitti: hi, i noticed you assigned me to bug 351017 . does that mean that there is more work to be done on the package?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 351017 in mjpegtools "[SRU] mpeg2enc crashes with SIGILL on non-p4 architectures." [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/351017
<pitti> Ampelbein: no, I just want every release targetted bug to have an assignee
<pitti> i. e. the one in charge for the bug
<Ampelbein> ah, ok.
<TheMuso> slangasek: sorry again since the website is not my area, I can't help.
 * TheMuso is thinking though that he should change that for karmic.
<TheMuso> i.e get web access since nobody ever appears to be around when these things need doing.
<slangasek> TheMuso: fwiw, _MMA_ tells me he's more-or-less stepping down due to work committments, so I guess that would be a good idea :)
<TheMuso> slangasek: Yeah I'm well aware of that.
<TheMuso> Thing is I tend to do a fair chunk of stuff as it is, that the others don't want me to take any more on, however they sometimes don't pull their own weight.
<madduck> at what time can we expect the release today?
<jpds> madduck: When it's announced on ubuntu-announce.
<madduck> oh how familiar that answer is :)
<madduck> the reason i am asking is because i need to talk to one of your developers asap and would like to make sure I get the timing right
<james_w> madduck: you need to talk to someone as soon as it's released, but not a moment before?
<madduck> right
<madduck> and i just wanted to get a bit of an idea when that would be
<madduck> anyway, i'll just wait
 * ogra points madduck to #ubuntu-release-party ... 
<ogra> will be announced there first
<busfahrer> Where?
<madduck> "Every time you ask if it's out yet, a unicorn loses it's horn." -- few, glad i asked the right question then. :)
<ogra> lol
<ogra> busfahrer,  #ubuntu-release-party
<busfahrer> Thanks, already in there, hehe.
<madduck> good luck all
<lifeless> mvo:
<lifeless> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/288797 seems unfixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 288797 in synaptic "[Intrepid] Synaptic unusable - Can not find packages" [Medium,Fix released]
<mvo> lifeless: upgrade or fresh install?
<slangasek> TheMuso, luisbg: now would be a good time to make http://mythbuntu.org/9.04/release available
<slangasek> TheMuso, luisbg: er, I mean http://ubuntustudio.org/downloads of course
<lifeless> mvo: read the comments
<lifeless> mvo: ask for more info etc:)
<mvo> lifeless: sorry, I thought you were hit by the bug too
<slangasek> superm1: the sooner http://mythbuntu.org/9.04/release can be made available, the better
<lifeless> mvo: I am subscribed forvarious reasons :)
<slangasek> NCommander: do you have access to get http://xubuntu.org/news/9.04-release updated?  looks like I just missed mr_pouit, and Cody's not around AFAICS
<lifeless> mvo: so I am seeing a stream of people still sayng they are hitting it
<mvo> lifeless: they are hitting a different bug it seems (the fact that adding a new repository does not immediately update the index)
<mvo> but I will respond in the bug
<Ampelbein> pitti: i get a failed to built for powerpc for mjpegtools (351017), http://paste.ubuntu.com/156499/ . How can I get access to the config.log?
<pitti> Ampelbein: you can't; you need to reproduce/debug it on a local machine
<pitti> Ampelbein: perhaps because -mno-sse2 is applied on all architectures instead of just i386, and the switch doesn't exist on other arches?
<pitti> Ampelbein: yeah, I think that's it
<pitti> wrap it into something like
<Ampelbein> pitti: that's what i suspect. but i don't have a powerpc-architecture here to test it. and since its the only change, yeah thats it. i broke another package
<pitti> ifneq ($(findstring $(DEB_BUILD_ARCH), i386 lpia),)
<pitti>  CFLAGS+=-fno-sse2
<pitti> endif
<pitti> (or whatever the flag/variable was)
<c_korn> in how many hours will jaunty be released?
<Ampelbein> pitti: will do that. is there a way to "simulate" another architecture with pbuilder? or perhaps with virtualbox?
<ogra> c_korn, -> #ubuntu-release-party
<pitti> Ampelbein: no, but you can change "i386" to "foobar" and verify that the flag isn't applied then
<c_korn> ogra: thanks. I should have known that there is a channel for everything
<Ampelbein> pitti: ah, yeah. cool. thanks for the help. (and sorry for breaking the package in the first try)
<ogra> heh
<pitti> Ampelbein: no prob
<miki4242> pitti: hi, i'm the guy who mailed you about using v4l-dvb with dkms, sorry for long silence :-)
<pitti> hi miki4242
<miki4242> had too much work going on to reply earlier
<miki4242> pitti: there were some problems regarding espeak: portaudio19 doesn't play nicely with pulseaudio. do you know what is going to happen to the release?
<pitti> miki4242: you might want to talk to TheMuso about that
<persia> Ampelbein, In extreme situations, it's possible to cat config.log during the build, but try other things first.
<persia> (as in when it fails on a buildd, but isn't failing locally, etc.)
<miki4242> pitti: ok thanks
<kirkland> seb128: howdy
<seb128> hi kirkland
<kirkland> seb128: i just enabled jaunty-proposed, to help do some testing of those packages
<kirkland> seb128: on dist-upgrade, i see:
<kirkland> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/156509/
<kirkland> seb128: removing evolution, and such
* slangasek changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 9.04 released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<kirkland> seb128: the last time i saw this, it took me about a day to resume my normal access to email :-)
<seb128> kirkland: could you try to figure why?
<kirkland> seb128: try to figure out why it wants to be removed?
<seb128> oh
<seb128> I know
<kirkland> seb128: or why i lost a day fighting evolution?
<seb128> kirkland: non !i386?
<directhex> man, jaunty's been out for AGES! why's karmic taking so long to open? boo!!!!!! :<
<seb128> kirkland: non i386 I mean
<seb128> ?
<kirkland> Linux t61p 2.6.28-11-generic #42-Ubuntu SMP Fri Apr 17 01:58:03 UTC 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux
<kirkland> seb128: ^
<seb128> right
<seb128> wait for the amd64 build to catch up for evolution-data-server
<Ampelbein> persia: ok. i think pitti found the error and provided a fix, am now testing here and will reupload.
<seb128> it built on i386 so -common is available but not the amd64 binaries
<kirkland> seb128: aaaahhhh
<seb128> yet another reason why I use an i386 install ;-)
<kirkland> seb128: wow, that's a nasty little race in our build system
 * pitti hugs slangasek, awesome work! congrats
<kirkland> seb128: so last time, i must have dist-upgraded later in the day and it found a published build
<persia> kirkland, It's worse when something FTBFS for only some architectures, because then it's more than a race condition.
<kirkland> seb128: and then i was working again
<seb128> kirkland: where it's really an issue is if the amd64 fails or take some days now
<kirkland> persia: seb128: ack.  that sucks.
<slangasek> pitti: you too :)
<slangasek> congrats, all!
<seb128> binaries are copied to -updates though
<directhex> yay!
<pitti> LOOK BEHIND! A THREE-ANTLERED JACKALOPE!
<seb128> so we don't have the issue in updates
<directhex> is my cake in the mail, then?
<seb128> slangasek: congrats!
 * kirkland hugs slangasek 
<persia> kirkland, The alternative is one copy of arch:all binaries for each arch, which is too painful to contemplate.
<Keybuk> IS KARMIC OPEN YET?
<seb128> well the bug there is also too strict depends between arch all and any binaries
<persia> Keybuk, You win.
<kirkland> Keybuk: oh, yeah, i'm installing it now :-)
<seb128> and apt being stupid, you can tell that to mvo ;-)
<ogra> Keybuk, on its way :)
<directhex> pitti, i want to help you for giving me a moment to visualize monkey island's Lemonhead as a debian developer... "and the package says 'maintained by lemonhead'... just like one of mine!"
<dholbach> asac: HAPPY BIRTHDAY! :-)
<directhex> Keybuk, beat you to it
<seb128> TOO MANY INFORMATIONS
<directhex> Keybuk, [14:02] <directhex> man, jaunty's been out for AGES! why's karmic taking so long to open? boo!!!!!! :<
<seb128> asac: happy birthday ;-)
<persia> directhex, Except you didn't use ALL CAPS, so it doesn't count as a well-formed pony request.
<pitti> asac: oh? happy (age++)!
<directhex> persia, poot.
<directhex> boo! asac gets jaunty for his birthday. i got a car accident!
<ogra> asac, DUDE ! happy b-day !
<mvo> seb128: its not sutpid, just a bit ... slow thinking
<mvo> (ok, it is)
<pitti> directhex: plusungood
<seb128> mvo: ;-)
<superm1> slangasek, should be live now
<slangasek> superm1: great, thanks
<seb128> mvo: I know, people should use "upgrade" and not "dist-upgrade" too
<mvo> asac: HAPPY BDAY
<ion_> (age++) = Î»xâage++x
<directhex> ion_, nerd!
<kirkland> seb128: i wonder if update-manager is any smarter about this than apt-get ...
<seb128> kirkland: update-manager never remove an installed package so yes
<seb128> kirkland: it would just wait for the amd64 build to be available
<seb128> kirkland: and put the -common upgrade on hold
<kirkland> seb128: cool, that's good to knoew
 * cjwatson starts pushing karmic seeds
<kirkland> seb128: i suppose that's why i saw the issue
<seb128> right
<kirkland> seb128: cheers, thanks for the help ;-)
<cjwatson> NCommander,mr_pouit: please branch lp:~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.jaunty to lp:~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.karmic
<seb128> kirkland: you're welcome, let me know if that's autofixed in one hour when the amd64 build is there
<cjwatson> superm1: please branch lp:~mythbuntu/ubuntu-seeds/mythbuntu.jaunty to lp:~mythbuntu/ubuntu-seeds/mythbuntu.karmic
<superm1> cjwatson, i thought i already did, will do if not
<wgrant> I find it a little odd that the feature tour recommends that I use Microsoft Office formats.
<cjwatson> I didn't look :)
<cjwatson> superm1: oh, so you did. queue-jumper :)
<directhex> wgrant, ?
<wgrant> directhex: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/904features/web-browsing/, bottom right.
<slangasek> mr_pouit: are you in a position to publish http://xubuntu.org/news/9.04-release, which still 404s?
<cjwatson> james_w: please add karmic to the package importer
<asac> thanks all ;)
<directhex> wgrant, i think it means it in a "interop with windows weenies" kind of way
<directhex> also, vista-- #randomly rebooted me mid-game as it decided to apply some updates i didn't ask it to
<[reed]> so, I was surprised to see update-manager telling me fglrx isn't supported on 9.04 -- anybody know the bug # tracking that or when that may be resolved so I can actually upgrade?
<directhex> [reed], ati dropped support for any cards older than $VERYNEW
<mvo> [reed]: fglrx does not support r5xx cards anymore, just r6xx,r7xx
<directhex> [reed], there's no fix. ever. unless ATI start doing what nvidia do, and have multiple fglrx releases at once which all support modern kernels & xservers
<mvo> [reed]: there is a decent chance that the free driver works well for you, but it seems that its lacking in some areas (games), compiz should be fine
<mvo> [reed]: best try that out with the livecd
<slangasek> cody-somerville: hi, I can has http://xubuntu.org/news/9.04-release ?
<cody-somerville> Yup. Bringing that online now
<slangasek> thanks!
<[reed]> so, I have an "ATI Mobility FireGL V5200" card
<[reed]> I don't know what that maps to
<[reed]> as far as rxxx goes
<pitti> heh, www.ubuntu.com is basically dead
<directhex> [reed], RV530
<[reed]> guh
<[reed]> that sucks
<ogra> pitti, not for me
<directhex> [reed], use the Free driver, or contact ATI, or stay using intrepid or older forever, or buy a new laptop. those are the options
<mvo> [reed]: little we can do unfortuantely (other than to warn about it)
<directhex> [reed], sorry, but that's what happens with proprietary stuff
<[reed]> well, the only reason I use it is because I have an external monitor, and fglrx seems to be the only thing that can do dual monitors correctly
<mr_pouit> NCommander: cody-somerville: can you create the branch? (I'm not on my machine right now)
<cody-somerville> mr_pouit, branch for what?
<persia> cody-somerville, karmic seeds.
<ogra> likely karmic
<cody-somerville> Sure
<ogra> ah persia beats me
<Ampelbein> pitti: attached modified debdiff to bug 351017, i tested locally with something arbitrary and the flag did not get applied. thanks.
 * persia was using a very light stick
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 351017 in mjpegtools "[SRU] mpeg2enc crashes with SIGILL on non-p4 architectures." [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/351017
<pitti> Ampelbein: can you upload yourself, or do you need a sponsor?
<Ampelbein> pitti: i need a sponsor.
<pitti> Ampelbein: uploaded, thanks! will process with the next batch
<doko> lamont: would you like to have GCC-4.4 as the default for hppa and ia64?
<calc> mdz: oh that is good news then :)
<pitti> meh, launchpad.net is slow, or is that just me?
<pitti> well, I guess it's the DC connection being maxed out
<gnomefreak> pitti: its launchpad
<ebroder> What's the best way to request a large-ish number of CDs for a student group I'm involved in to hand out to users? The last time we tried to order a batch of Intrepid CDs through shipit, we got 3
<ScottK> ebroder: There's a "special request" link on the shipit page that gives you a chance to explain why you need more.  That's worked for me.
<ebroder> Ok, I'll try that...as soon as shipit comes back up
<cumulus007> Hi, a tour to introduce Ubuntu during installation was promised for Hardy, then it was delayed for Intrepid, and finally it would come in Jaunty
<cumulus007> however, it's not there in jaunty
<cumulus007> why is this?
<persia> cumulus007, Maybe nobody wrote it yet?
<ion_> You didnât implement it yet. :-P
<superm1> cumulus007, you mean the ubiquity slideshow spec?
<cumulus007> yep
<superm1> cumulus007, it's been discussed at the last two UDSes, and it will be discussed again at this one I believe
<superm1> evand might know more on why it was delayed
<cumulus007> Okay, I hope this will be implemented
<evand> cumulus007: it's scheduled for Karmic.  We need to coordinate work between four teams, and that turns out to be quite difficult.
<cumulus007> okay, that's a pity
<azeem_> W2
<azeem_> bah, sorry
<Kano> hi, why is jaunty not default on packages.u?
<weather15> Hello
<soren> Kano: Probably an oversight. However, I suspect that at this very second, Intrepid is still what most people uses, so it's not that bad :)
<ScottK> Kano: Because there isn't one magic "we released, so let's update every web tool everywhere that Ubuntu uses" button.
<Kano> you could write it
<soren> No, we couldn't.
<persia> Kano, not trivially, because people write new web tools for Ubuntu every day.
<Kano> packages is old
<soren> Kano: And not run by Canonical.
<soren> Kano: I'm not even sure the guy running it is an Ubuntu user.
<Kano> haha
<ScottK> Packages.ubuntu.com and packages.debian.org are the same codebase.
<geser> soren: packages.u.c is hosted on sulfur.canonical.com now
<soren> geser: still on Frank's behalf, though, isn't it?
<soren> I mean.. We provide the hardware, but I thought he ran it.
<soren> ICBW.
<ScottK> AFAIK that's true.
<geser> that I don't know
<calc> is there a particular reason LP is falling over
<calc> it seems about 50% failure rate for me currently
<ScottK> calc: It's in the same data center as the primary mirrors.  It's release day.
 * calc thought it was separate from the package distribution system
<calc> ScottK: so overloaded it can't even get to its backend i suppose?
<ScottK> Not sure where the bottleneck is, but clearly there is one.
<calc> the page itself works but operations on it pop up the oops page
<ScottK> This happens every release.
 * calc thinks the LP server needs a dedicated connection to its database server
<pitti> Keybuk: who's the MoM person nowadays? it needs to be flipped to Karmic, and all "updated merges" reset to "outstanding"
<cjwatson> pitti: Keybuk said earlier he'd already poked MoM
<pitti> ah, nice
<cjwatson> he says he suspects archive.ubuntu.com hadn't quite pulsed out karmic yet
<cjwatson> so it'll get round to it
<cjwatson> calc: having trouble due to the load on shipit; they're aware, but it will probably also naturally subside
<calc> cjwatson: ok
<trunkz> Not entirely sure as to whether this is the correct channel, but I was reading up on the mailing lists, and it sems libspe2 should be in the repo's.. but it isnt.
<trunkz> Its an important ps3 component of ubuntu.
<ScottK> trunkz: For discussing getting new packages in, #ubuntu-motu is a better channel.
<calc> trunkz: its not there for ps3? or just not there for other arches?
<trunkz> calc, doesnt seem to be for powerpc or x86 (just ran it on my intel box)
<trunkz> ScottK, will have a try there :)
<calc> trunkz: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libspe2/2.2.80-95-3.1ubuntu1
<calc> trunkz: it shows like it is there
<trunkz> I know.
<pi_m> Hi, how can I disable the new notifications?
<trunkz> But its not in the repo's
<trunkz> I've compiled the source from launchpad
<trunkz> but it seems apt-get & dpkg dont believe that its installed.. which is another problem :p
<trunkz> Trying to do it via checkinstall now, hopefully the .deb will register itself.
<calc> trunkz: this isn't it? http://ports.ubuntu.com/pool/main/libs/libspe2/libspe2-2_2.2.80-95-3.1ubuntu1_powerpc.deb
<trunkz> that might be libspe2-2.. which it wont be
<trunkz> i'll double check.
<calc> trunkz: its built from the same libspe2 source
<calc> trunkz: it looks like the sover changed
<calc> trunkz: between 2.2.0 and 2.2.80 it changed name from libspe2 to libspe2-2
<trunkz> .. ahh
<calc> trunkz: at least from what i can see
<trunkz> do they still have the 2.2.0 debs on there?
<calc> trunkz: yea... look :)
<calc> not in jaunty as it is old, but its in intrepid
<trunkz> ya just saw itin intrepid
<trunkz> thats going to fix a heck of alot of problems if it works.
<calc> trunkz: what problems are you seeing? is it just a problem with your own code linking against the wrong library name?
<trunkz> spe-medialib wont recognise libspe2 :)
<calc> trunkz: spe-medialib is probably an old version then or not up to date with the spe2 libary
<trunkz> All this.. just to get video working properly :)
<calc> trunkz: so i take it spe-medialib isn't something that is in ubuntu?
<trunkz> nope.
<trunkz> It should be. but it isnt :)
<calc> trunkz: so just modify its source to link the correct lib and/or just recompile it and it should work
<trunkz> oh hello.. seems to play nice now.
<calc> you might not have to modify anything depending on how it finds the spe library when building
<calc> heh
<pi_m> Or can you tell me where I can find this information (how can I disable the new notifications)?
<trunkz> I'll probably submit a request for static builds of spe-medialib to be included in the repo :)
<ScottK> trunkz: It'll get turned down.
<trunkz> I'll bribe them with cookies.
<pacejr> anyone have any speculation about the radeon driver stack in 9.10?
<persia> pacejr, At this point, it's mostly an upstream thing: I doubt the decision would be taken as to what or how or any such until at least post UDS.
<Kano> i hope the first new package for karmic will be vbox 2.2.x
<pacejr> persia: yeah, i figured. 2.6.31 will likely be just too late for 9.10 anyways, right?
<persia> I don't know.  Depends on when it releases, and what the kernel team decides at UDS.
<pacejr> i seem to remember they've only switched to a kernel in the middle of ubuntu's release cycle once in the past few years
<persia> No, the kernel switches in the cycle at least once *every* cycle.  It only switched late in the cycle once.
<persia> The kernel team selects a version to target early in the cycle, and generally keeps to that choice.
<LordKow> the version selection really does have a lot to do with each specific kernel release.
<calc> as 2.6.30 isn't even released yet it is unlikely 2.6.31 will be in karmic
<calc> 2.6.31 at the current kernel release rate would be out sometime after July (maybe August?)
<LordKow> i would guess 2.6.30 in june. so.. late august.
<pacejr> and i suppose the kernel team would be hesitant to patch the new radeon bits into 2.6.30?
<calc> feature freeze is also late august so it will be interesting to see what they decide to go with :)
<pacejr> at least fedora is guinea-pigging a lot of the new radeon stuff for us
<Kano> but it was too late to fix intel onboard it seems for 9.04
<Marfi> Passing word from #ubuntu...torrent link is being buggy
<Marfi> back to work. Wonderful release!
<jdong> Kano: I don't see a solution for that mess until probably closer to Karmic's release timeframe.
<jdong> looks to me like upstream is the one in a state of flux.
<Kano> updated intel drm maybe
<magcius> I've got this annoying bug in my fork of notify-osd where the message box flashes for a minute before fading in. Anybody want to help?
<ScottK> jdong: siretart was reporting significantly better performance with the current release.
<NCommander> *sigh*
<NCommander> That's fun
<jdong> ScottK: performance isn't my issue; stability is my biggest concern currently
<jdong> ScottK: EXA doesn't work anymore since Jaunty, UXA hardlocks every few hours and dies on resume
<ScottK> jdong: I see.  For UXA, I agree.
<LaserJock> jdong: talking about -intel
<LaserJock> ?
<ScottK> EXA works here, just is slow.
<ScottK> LaserJock: Yea
<LaserJock> yeah, I'm really buggered by it still
<ScottK> EXA + Greedy works reasonably well here.
<LaserJock> I have to turn off compositing or my GPU freezes within a few minutes
<NCommander> pitti, is there any chance we can setup a SPARC retracer? (I'm currently actively debugging issues on SPARC< and it would be handy)
<jdong> EXA for me deadlocks in some GEM call when Compiz tries to start.
<jdong> it's a bug that I can produce in every modern-ish distro past Intrepid
<ScottK> jdong: Which Intel do you have?
<ScottK> jdong: Any chance you could give backports approval some love.  I'm sure it needs it.
<jdong> ScottK: GMA950 in a old generation Macbook
<ScottK> Ah.
<jdong> and Backports is on my TODO list which is getting shoved to the weekend.... courses are really killing me right now
<persia> NCommander, You can run apport-retrace locally.
<NCommander> persia, link to documentation?
 * NCommander suspects he needs the debug libraries installed :-/
<persia> man apport-retrace
<YokoZar> hmm the release notes page still refers to Ubuntu 9.04 beta (http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/904overview)
<persia> YokoZar, IF it's not already filed, file a bug against ubuntu-website.
<cody-somerville> where did gtk-displayconfig go?
<YokoZar> persia: done.  didn't realize we had a website project in launchpad, makes sense
<magcius> Sorry... Ubuntu packaging n00b here... how do you use CDBS with automake?
<persia> magcius, Better to ask in #ubutu-motu (and there's a couple files you can include, but how many to include depends on what you want to do).
<ScottK> magcius: Packaging questions are better in #ubuntu-motu
<siretart> jdong: ScottK's right. I'm currently running jaunty with 2.6.30-rc2 and intel 2.7.0 release (karmic ships 2.6.3) and EXA acceleration.
<ScottK> kees: The last upload to the release pocket was your sepolgen upload.
<NCommander> jdong, ping?
<kees> ScottK: \o/  :)
<joaopinto> my system hanged on a "Checkign initramfs for custom DSDT" after a crash, the only bug I found for the same message is bug 58386, but is rather old
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 58386 in linux "ACPI: Looking for DSDT ... not found! (message during boot)" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/58386
<joaopinto> any ideas ?
<ScottK> joaopinto: File a new bug.
<joaopinto> hum, shut it down for some more minutes and booted fine now
<joaopinto> not sure i'll be able to reproduce
<joaopinto> I have left my laptop for 10 minutes, and then found it shutdown, with the caps lock blinking
<joaopinto> grr, now the wifi is also working
<magcius> Would it make sense for Ubuntu to do the Select Best Server thing before a dist-upgrade?
<magcius> I think that's a reasonable request.
<alex-weej> anyone offer an explanation as to why "outline" is the default mode in compiz?
<alex-weej> resizing used to be slow
<alex-weej> but it isn't anymore
<alex-weej> i can cook up a config patch debdiff if it's worth it
<mrooney> pitti: around by any chance?
#ubuntu-devel 2009-04-24
<twb> apt-spy is a Debian package that looks at the Debian mirror list, tries each one in turn, and puts the fastest ones in sources.list.d.  Is there an equivalent list of primary *and secondary* mirrors for Ubuntu?
<twb> The mirror list would also need to specify which arches and categories (and if deb-src was available) for each mirror.
<Viper550> Okay, little question, did support for any older graphics cards get dropped from any drivers?
<twb> Viper550: for an Xorg GPU driver "foo", you can usually say "man foo" to read about it.
<Viper550> like, ati
<twb> In particular, the proprietary drivers seem to regularly drop support for older models.
<Viper550> I have to switch it to vesa or I get a blank screen with my computer. It worked ok on Breezy
<twb> However, this thread is probably better directed to #ubuntu or similar.
<olmari> hello, it seems that 9.04 installation trough netboot / mini-installer is somewhat broken at least on this one computer
<olmari> will explain further if anyone interested
<jscinoz> hi
<jscinoz> Is there a reason that the tor package was removed from jaunty?
<StevenK> jscinoz: Deleted in jaunty-release on 2009-04-17  (Reason: unmaintained, see LP #328442)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 328442 in tor "Tor 0.1.2.x abandoned by upstream, update to 0.2.0.34" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/328442
<jscinoz> StevenK: ah i see, thanks
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> NCommander: if we still have a porter box, it's possible
<StevenK> Morning pitti!
<StevenK> I wonder if the dist-upgrader stores what it wants to remove in a tempfile
<liw> StevenK, /var/log/dist-upgrade?
<StevenK> Oooh
<kklimonda> Is any Ubuntu Python developer/maintainer present?
<jpds> pitti: Sorry for not pushing the disable-existing-groups-creation up to upstream, have been moving, will do this evening.
<pitti> jpds: no need to be, was just a reminder
<pitti> jpds: just dput'ed the package, it works wonderfully!
 * pitti backports them
<jpds> \o/
<pitti> jpds: thank you for working on this; it explains a lot of weird bug reports I've seen
<jpds> No problem at all.
<pitti> jpds: how was the moving, everythign settled now?
<jpds> pitti: Still no place to live, sleeping on office floor.
<jpds> So yeah, it's been an interesting week. :)
<NCommander> pitti, we do have a porters box :-)
<NCommander> pitti, an armel retracer though would be extremely useful
<pitti> NCommander: which machine is that?
<NCommander> pitti, the armel porter is rimu, I'm trying to remember what the SPARC porter box is (I've used it once, and my brain has gone to mush)
 * pitti wonders whether putting something as heavy as the apport retracer on that would completely blow the machine
<NCommander> pitti, how demanding is the retracer?
<pitti> NCommander: mostly I/O; lots of chroot unpacking, package installing, running gdb, and communicating with LP
<pitti> pitti@rimu:~$
<pitti> ah, taht works
 * NCommander is looking for the SPARC box
<pitti> NCommander: well, I'll set it up, and we can run it on demand
<pitti> added to my TODO
<NCommander> pitti, my laptop sucks :-/
<NCommander> pitti, I won't think the retracer would be that bad, considering there wouldn't be THAT many things it needs to retrace
<pitti> true that
<NCommander> apport will likely need a patch though to tag things retrace-armel-needed
<pitti> NCommander: as I said, I'm happy to set it up, then we can run it on demand
 * NCommander is trying to find the SPARC porter
<pitti> NCommander: patch> unlikely, unless apt reports somethign else than "armel" as architecture
<pitti> NCommander: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=need-armel-retrace
 * NCommander hasn't really poked apport guts all that much
<pitti> seems to work
<cjwatson> NCommander: faure
<NCommander> cjwatson, thanks. I was going nuts to try and find it.
 * ogra thinks update-initramfs should be able to use a --sourcedir option ...
<NCommander> cjwatson, I have lpia-wrapper prepped for upload (it needs to approved via REVU, but that should get done to day). Can I fire an upload to karmic, or should it wait for general archive open
<ogra> its all scripts, totally arch independent, theoretically i should be able to bootstrap a stage one system, dpkg -x a kernel packge in that dir and let update-initramfs roll an initrd.gz from that, no ?
<cjwatson> NCommander: feel free to upload any time, although I understand it's already on the buildds so it's not urgent to accept
<cjwatson> ogra: hooks can do anything; they could quite reasonably do architecture-dependent things. I wouldn't want to support --sourcedir.
<ogra> oh, hooks ... i didnt think of them ...
<ogra> i was just wondering ... my redboot-install script will need an initrd.gz and i have no idea how to get one without using qemu which is a bit heavy imho
<ogra> i guess i'll have to strike the cross arch idea for now :/
<NCommander> ogra, ?
<ogra> NCommander, ?
<NCommander> ogra, what are you doing?
<ogra> writing redboot-install
<NCommander> ogra, oh
<directhex> you know, sabdfl1's oh-so-soft mono t-shirt would have come in handy yesterday
<ogra> dont you have you own ?
<ogra> *your
<directhex> no!
<directhex> closes i have is a visual studio t-shirt i snagged as an undergrad
<ogra> really ? you are the mono guy, arent you ?
<NCommander> ogra, argh, I just realized, we never wrote an installation manual for ARM :-/
<directhex> ogra, yeah
<ogra> make them send you one instead of trying to borrow sabdfl1's :P
<ogra> NCommander, installation manual ?
<cjwatson> installation-guide-armel
<ogra> the ubiquity docs should do
<NCommander> ogasawara, https://help.ubuntu.com/9.04/installation-guide/powerpc/index.html
<NCommander> Granted, the PowerPC one probably needs a refresh ...
<ogra> hm, but we dont have an official alternate image
<NCommander> although its still mostly revelent for 9.04
<cjwatson> I did consider enabling armel in installation-guide (it's quite straightforward to turn that on), but (a) it's primarily for d-i and (b) I suspected that the hardware sections would need some work
<directhex> i wonder if the mono team still have any Rupert plushies
<ogra> well, it would anyway only make sense for the netinst images
<NCommander> ogra, we have babbage alternates
<NCommander> I don't know anyone using them
<NCommander> But we do have them.
<cjwatson> it would make sense for netboot, yes
<directhex> does jaunty work on ps3? does anyone know off the top of their heads?
<NCommander> directhex, works great
<directhex> NCommander, excellent
<cjwatson> there was a bug this morning about it being totally broken (usplash?)
<NCommander> directhex, using a Xubuntu alternate, and your set to go.
<cjwatson> but it could be system-specific
<NCommander> cjwatson, on PS3? I filed a bunch on usplash on powerpc in general
<cjwatson> bug 365711
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 365711 in ubuntu-ps3-port "Ubuntu 9.04 PS3 Desktop image doesn't work" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/365711
<NCommander> The live images are broken, the alternates are known to work.
<cjwatson> ah
<cjwatson> what's wrong with the desktop images? just RAM constraints?
<directhex> NCommander, will those be respun with a fix, or release-noted as coasters?
<cjwatson> in that case we should perhaps unpublish the desktop images ...
<NCommander> directhex, we release noted it in the Kubuntu release notes
<NCommander> directhex, I'm tempted to buy a PS3, there are so many users of it it would be nice if a powerpc dev had one :-/
<directhex> NCommander, i still think ps3 linux has been largely a missed opportunity. only one company is sinking significant resources into it, but they haven't cured it of inherent suckitude
<directhex> NCommander, but it's a year or two since i took a look. it might all be great nowadays
<NCommander> directhex, blame sony. Although there are only two distros with native PS3 support
<NCommander> directhex, YDL and Ubuntu
<NCommander> (Fedora has an unofficial port last I checked)
<directhex> NCommander, define "native"
<NCommander> directhex, installer CDs for PS3 that you just pop in and go
<directhex> NCommander, ah, you'#re missing one little detail then
<NCommander> directhex, ?
 * NCommander is currently sucking down the SPARC karmic tree
<directhex> NCommander, opensuse has no ps3 image - opensuse ppc has all ps3 specific files on the generic ppc media
<directhex> including otheros.bld
<NCommander> directhex, wow, nifty
 * NCommander is still kinda amazed Ubuntu PS3 exists
<directhex> hm, yeah, 2007 is when i last looked at ps3 linux
 * NCommander is currently investigating the sparc d-i issues
<directhex> NCommander, what seems to be missing from ps3 linux distros IME is ps3-specific polish. i don't know how much polish is possible given the hypervisor constraints, but things like changing resolution ought to be possible in an "easy" way, even if it's just something wrapping the crap way
<NCommander> directhex, last I checked, 9.04 properly autodetects resolution based on the output usage on the PS3
<directhex> <3
<directhex> wait, we live in an age of utf-8
<directhex> â¥
<NCommander> lol
<directhex> THAT's the kind of thing i'm talking about though. if it does that, then that's awesome
<directhex> how about networking? is it still a plate of doodie & chips to use wifi through the nasty gelic kernel module?
<NCommander> cjwatson, is there a good place we can note the existence of lpia-wrapper? Anyone building packages on lpia in a chroot will not get the wrapper installed automatically so we probably should document its existence somewhere :-/
<ogra> NCommander, blog it :)
<NCommander> ogra, planned to, but I was thinking something more attractive
<NCommander> ogra, Kubuntu started pushed lpia for Atom in their release annoucement since they have users who are seeing better performance on it, which means the lpia usebase is going to go up
<NCommander> and a specification idea just hit me
<cjwatson> NCommander: err. I'm honestly not sure. Somewhere linked off UbuntuDevelopment?
<NCommander> cjwatson, yeah, but most people aren't likely to check that :-/. Maybe we should place it in build-essential for lpia (I dunno if thats a good idea or not, but at least if you build a pbuilder chroot, you get a setup that matches the build daemons)
<dholbach> NCommander:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPackagingChanges ?
<dholbach> NCommander: that page is linekd from a couple of places already
<NCommander> dholbach, indeed
<cjwatson> Riddell,ScottK: bug 349066 (from the 9.04 release notes) is still open on kubuntu-default-settings. Is it still possible/reasonable to fix it there (e.g. for upgrades from 8.04 to 10.04)? If so, it ought to be targeted to karmic
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 349066 in ubuntu-release-notes "Release notes need to tell upgrade users how to add new network-manager widget" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/349066
<cjwatson> (I haven't done that myself since I don't know whether it should just be closed or not)
<Riddell> cjwatson: I don't think there's any way to do the right thing so it should probably just be closed
<cjwatson> Riddell: ok, please go ahead then
<cjwatson> doko,kees: I've promoted autoconf2.59 to main, since gcc-4.4 build-depends on it, I'm sure that's better than it having an internal copy, and the security support implications seem likely to be minimal. Do you know if there's any work being done to port gcc forward to current autoconf?
<cjwatson> doko,kees: hmm, and also promoted cloog-ppl while I was there
<doko> cjwatson: and ppl
<doko> cjwatson: autoconf. no, afaik the pain is not yet big enough, and this always seems to be a major effort, as this is kept in sync with gcc, binutils, gdb, ...
<cjwatson> doko: any particular binaries from ppl, or everything?
<pitti> wrt toolchainish packages, anyone already working on debhelper?
<doko> cjwatson: libpwl4, libpwl-dev could be kept in universe
<cjwatson> pitti: not I
<pitti> I'm currently tracking down a python install regression in debian's cdbs while merging that
<cjwatson> pitti: I'm planning to deal with dpkg though
<pitti> but I'm fine to merge debhelper later on
<cjwatson> (need to decide whether to use the one from experimental, which is likely to involve many fewer changes but is missing a version from unstable)
<cjwatson> doko: ok, ppl promoted, thanks
<directhex> has slangasek been sighted lately?
<danbhfive> anyone here know where to report a problem with the UNR image?  I think the image is bad, and should be pulled/rebuilt/whatever.  Seems like a critical bug.  I've reported under bug 366086
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 366086 in debian-installer "UNR bad image of 9.04 release" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/366086
<james_w> debian-installer probably isn't the place
<danbhfive> I know, I know, but thats what someone in #ubuntu-bugs suggested
<danbhfive> but what _is_ the right place?
<james_w> that's checking the md5sums of the packages on the CD against the Packages.gz file?
<danbhfive> james_w: no, it uses the md5sums.txt file, and checks the packages directly I think
<james_w> is there anything in ./pool/main/p/ppp/ ?
<danbhfive> james_w: ie, I mounted the image, cd'd into the root directory, and ran md5sum -c md5sum.txt
<danbhfive> james_w: I attached the file in the bug report
<james_w> http://releases.ubuntu.com/jaunty/ubuntu-9.04-netbook-remix-i386.list lists something similar
<NCommander> danbhfive: what's wrong with the UNR image specifically?
<james_w> can you confirm the filename?
<james_w> and the deb you attached is valid, and is the right version of the ppp package
<james_w> danbhfive: what's the md5sum of the package supposed to be according to md5sums.txt?
<cjwatson> danbhfive: actually sounds more likely to be a localised hardware problem
<danbhfive> james_w: its valid?  It looks like junk on my computer...
<james_w> danbhfive: depends what you are doing with it
<danbhfive> lets move to #ubuntu-bugs?
<james_w> bug 360925 and bug 365795 found by thekorn
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 360925 in mobile-meta "md5sum check of UNR image fails in one file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/360925
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 365795 in casper "UNR LiveUSB fails integrity check with "errors found in 1 files!"" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/365795
<james_w> danbhfive: no, here's better
<danbhfive> ok
<james_w> danbhfive: what's the md5sum supposed to be?
<danbhfive> from md5sum.txt?
<james_w> yeah
<danbhfive> ff0358bc3eb43e9420a7f009482c278a  ./pool/main/p/ppp/ppp_2.4.5~git20081126t100229-0ubuntu2_i386.deb
<james_w> ok, so the file is there and just under the wrong name
<ogra> james_w, the filename is cut
<ogra> very likely because its to long for vfat
<ogra> ogra@osiris:/var/build/images$ md5sum /mnt/pool/main/p/ppp/ppp_245~.d
<ogra> ff0358bc3eb43e9420a7f009482c278a  /mnt/pool/main/p/ppp/ppp_245~.d
<ogra> md5 actually matches
<james_w> it's certainly not the longest filename there
<danbhfive> ogra: I actually ran a fsck, and it complained of that
<ogra> danbhfive, yes, but the file isnt corrupted, the name simply doesnt match the name in md5sum.txt
<ogra> i would think it has to do something with the amount of chars behind the tilde but thats only a guess
<ogra> if it is being truncated during copying to vfat that should have created a message somewhere in the buildlogs though
<danbhfive> ogra: I attached the error message from the fsck to the bug report.  It says its a bad checksum on the filename
<ogra> right
<ogra> http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/ubuntu-netbook-remix/jaunty/daily-live-20090421.log shows its intact on the buildd during the build ...
 * NCommander grabs it from releases.u.c
<cjwatson> I'm guessing the ~ is causing problems due to VFAT's long file name rules. In any case this is no cause to pull the image; at most perhaps a release note that the check will fail harmlessly due to this
<ogra> well, it makes ppp uninstallble too from ship i guess
<ogra> *uninstallable
<cjwatson> I suppose it would do, yes, but you can always get it from the archive; it's not needed during installation
<cjwatson> I can confirm that the actual file has the correct contents in the image
<ogra> http://paste.ubuntu.com/157258/
<ogra> so seems like vfat
<cjwatson> yes, of course it's vfat :)
<cjwatson> I mean, of course it's a problem with vfat
<ogra> well, i wanted to be sure by verifying :)
<cjwatson> you don't get this kind of problem on proper filesystems ;)
<cjwatson> I'll dup the bugs and put them in the right place
<superm1> mvo, this is the second one of bugs showing up like this: bug 366118 . I'm really not too sure what can be causing something like that however.  have you seen this kind of stuff before?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 366118 in dkms "package dkms 2.0.21.1-0ubuntu3 failed to install/upgrade: package dkms is already installed and configured" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/366118
<mvo> superm1: I have seen when triggers fail before, the dpkg status file would be good to have
<superm1> mvo, hm, well i wish i'd reproduced it myself then :(
<kees> cjwatson: promotions> sounds fine to my MIR persona :)
<NCommander> any archive admins around?
<cjwatson> NCommander: yes?
<NCommander> cjwatson: its not a high priority thing, but I uploaded lpia-wrapper to the NEW queue as per the instructions you gave in the RT ticket. Feel free to look at it whenever you get a moment :-)
<ogra> is the toolchain already there ?
<ogra> i thought we'd be waiting for that
<NCommander> ogra: toolchain already went, the wrapper in the chroots
<NCommander> ogra: so far no boom.
<ogra> ah, i thought we'd have to wait until the rebuild is done
<NCommander> ogra: I didn't hear anything about waiting for that for the upload. If thats the case, it can just sit in the unapproved queue until general archive open
<ogra> yeah, wont affect the queue indeed
<NCommander> ogra: either way, its more or less done until this start exploding in piles of sparks.
<ogra> its just that i didnt get any mail from karmic-changes yet so i assumed its still waiting for the toolchain to be done
<NCommander> ogra: I see the toolchain packages in karmic as accepted
<NCommander> Maybe Launchpad isn't sending mail, or someone misset the changes email when they created the distro series
<ogra> that i doubt
 * NCommander shrugs
 * NCommander is looking into what voodoo it takes to build an add-on CD
<cjwatson> NCommander: I think it's fine to sit until general open
<cjwatson> but thanks
<cjwatson> karmic-changes has its moderation settings wrong; I'll sort that out
<NCommander> cjwatson: np, I just didn't want it to get forgotton, I still need to note it somewhere. I guess the other thing to decide is if we want it in build-essential on lpia once it goes through (its strictly speaking not essential, but to get the same compiler output it is ...)
<cjwatson> it won't get forgotten once it's in the queue
<NCommander> ... stupid question, is it going to move from Unapproved to New at general open?
<cjwatson> it's already in new
<NCommander> oh
 * NCommander has a MIR to write
<cjwatson> build-essential> I don't really care; your team's decision. If you want it there then edit the build-essential seed
<NCommander> cjwatson: I'll bring it up with the team. Thanks
<cjwatson> hmm, I can't find the relevant moderation bit, I'll ask IS
<kirkland> pitti: howdy
<kirkland> pitti: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ecryptfs-utils/+bug/313330
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 313330 in ecryptfs-utils "Error attempting to add passphrase key to user session keyring" [Undecided,New]
<kirkland> pitti: thanks for nudging that over to ecryptfs-utils
<kirkland> pitti: were you able to reproduce this?
<pitti> kirkland: no, I just stumbled over this when triaging my ubuntu-bugs mailbox
<kirkland> pitti: gotcha
<pitti> kirkland: and good morning :)
<kirkland> pitti: hiya!
<kirkland> pitti: i think this is a combination of a couple of issues
<ogra> cjwatson, gcc-defaults just got through
<kirkland> pitti: the "slow" part of the login process he describes, I *bet* he's on a netbook, arm, or atom machine
<kirkland> pitti: and he's experiencing his cpu "strengthening" his key
<cjwatson> ogra: yeah, but I had to moderate two messages earlier
<ogra> ah
<kirkland> pitti: which is ecryptfs iteratively sha512'ing his key 64K times
<pitti> kirkland: hm, these aren't really so slow, though, are they? they are usually > 1 GHz?
<kirkland> pitti: they're slow for mathematical computation
<kirkland> pitti: stuff they can't offload like sound/video/networking
<pitti> oh
<kirkland> pitti: i have an idea about how we can 'fix' that in Karmic
<kirkland> pitti: jdstrand made a couple of interesting suggestions
<directhex> is slangasek taking a day off post-release?
<kirkland> pitti: with respect to the error messages, i have some new code upstream that short-circuits the pam_ecryptfs parts for users (like root) who don't have an ecryptfs setup
<cjwatson> it's kinda early for him *anyway*, given that I saw mail from him a mere five hours or so ago
<kirkland> pitti: so i think this, again, will be fixed as soon as we merge for karmic
<directhex> is it? hm, i suppose i didn't think about which TZ he's in
<pitti> kirkland: nice
<pitti> kirkland: my own computer is pretty slow as well (2x 1.2 GHz), so perhaps the slow session start affects me as well :)
<kirkland> pitti: time sudo /bin/true
<pitti> real0m0.075s
<pitti> user0m0.016s
<pitti> sys0m0.000s
<kirkland> pitti: doesn't look like it to me
<kirkland> pitti: do you have an atom or arm?
<pitti> but that doesn't do password shuffling certainly?
<kirkland> pitti: here's a better test ...
<pitti> kirkland: no, Core2 Duo
<kirkland> pitti: oh, that's a powerful processor
<kirkland> pitti: time printf "foo" | ecryptfs-add-passphrase
<kirkland> real	0m0.369s
<pitti> real0m0.530s
<pitti> user0m0.476s
<kirkland> pitti: if i peg my cpu at 800MHz: 0m0.675s
<kirkland> pitti: at 2.4Ghz: 0m0.216s
<kirkland> pitti: my Dell Mini9 is about 10x slower
<pitti> kirkland: btw, did that command change anything in my ecryptfs keyring?
<pitti> i. e. can people now login with "foo"? :-)
<kirkland> pitti: keyctl show
<kirkland> pitti: no :-)
<kirkland> pitti: cat $HOME/.ecryptfs/Private.sig
<pitti> (nice trick, though!)
<kirkland> pitti: that'll show your two "real" keys
<kirkland> pitti: keyctl show
<kirkland> pitti: that'll show you 3 keys (with your new one)
<kirkland> pitti: you can prune it out with ...
<kirkland> pitti: it's keyctl unlink
<kirkland> pitti: i'm trying to get the syntax right, one moment :-)
<kirkland> pitti: okay, keyctl show
<kirkland> pitti: find the key that does not belong
<kirkland> pitti: the first column is the key id
<kirkland> pitti: then unlink it from your user keyring with something like:
<kirkland> pitti: keyctl unlink 284027678 @u
<kirkland> pitti: where 284027678 is the key id
<pitti> hm, that's confusing
<pitti> keyctl show is just gibberish
<pitti> kirkland: anyway, if it's all good after next boot, I'm fine
<kirkland> pitti: :-)  it's not that bad
<kirkland> pitti: do you have an entry in your keyring with sig 253ca7e88811d184
<kirkland> pitti: that's the one that matches "foo" for me
<pitti> kirkland: Private.sig only has one id
<kirkland> pitti: since we used the same salt and number of iterations, i'd expect it to be the same for you
<kirkland> pitti: ah, you're not using filename encryption then!
<pitti> no, I'm not
<kirkland> pitti: okay
<pitti> this is a pretty old /home
<cjwatson> ogra,NCommander: ok, Ng has fixed karmic-changes moderation
<kirkland> pitti: (btw, it's fairly easy to migrate to using filename encryption, if you want)
<ogra> great :)
<kirkland> pitti: do you have an entry in keyctl show that matches sig 253ca7e88811d184?
<pitti> kirkland: yes, I do
<kirkland> pitti: cool, take the int in column 1 for that sig
<kirkland> pitti: that's the key id
<kirkland> pitti: and do keyctl unlink <that key id> @u
<pitti> kirkland: that worked, thanks
<kirkland> pitti: \o/
<andy_js> is update-manager tied to ubuntu?
<andy_js> i'd like to use it with StormOS
<maco> kirkland: "GA"?
<mvo> andy_js: I don't know about stormos, but update-manager should work on anything that supported python-apt
<kirkland> maco: Generally Available
<andy_js> mvo: thanks
<maco> ah...haven't tried since last time i said i couldn't reproduce
<nijaba> mvo: regarding https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-repository-management/, you know about the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WebMirrorManager spec we started last UDS?
<mvo> nijaba: thanks, I have a look
<nijaba> np
<maco> kirkland: im going with saying its not reproducible since last time i did two installs in a row and neither hit it
<kirkland> maco: cool
<kirkland> maco: would you update the bug?
<kirkland> cjwatson: hiya ...
<kirkland> cjwatson: there have been a few error reports about ecryptfs-utils being removed during installation
<kirkland> cjwatson: i thought i saw something from you come across that fixed this
<kirkland> cjwatson: as i recall, it wasn't in ecryptfs, but in user-setup or something, perhaps?
<kirkland> cjwatson: i have two very similar bug reports that i'm trying to wrap my head around
<kirkland> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ecryptfs-utils/+bug/365895 and https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ecryptfs-utils/+bug/365905
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 365895 in ecryptfs-utils "package ecryptfs-utils 73-0ubuntu6 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess pre-removal script returned error exit status 1" [Undecided,New]
<cjwatson> kirkland: bug 361627
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 361627 in user-setup "should not remove ecryptfs-utils when in use" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/361627
<kirkland> cjwatson: did this make it onto the install media?
<cjwatson> yes, and those reports are both from after this change, so it's something else
<cjwatson> I need /var/log/syslog from the installation environment
<cjwatson> or 'apport-collect -p ubiquity <bug number>' from the installation environment
<kirkland> cjwatson: MediaBuild: Ubuntu 9.04 "Jaunty Jackalope" - Release i386 (20090420.1)
<cjwatson> it does look pretty similar, so maybe I screwed up the fix
<kirkland> cjwatson: just confirming, that build is "new enough", right ?
<cjwatson> yes, that's final.
<kirkland> k
<cjwatson> the intent of the fix I applied was to iterate over /target/home/*, and if any of those directories have a .ecryptfs subdirectory, then to keep ecryptfs-utils installed
<cjwatson> bug 365905 is an upgrade log, though, not an installation log
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 365905 in ecryptfs-utils "this happend during 9.4 installation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/365905
<cjwatson> oh, err, I'm wrong there, sorry
<cjwatson> it's confusing because we don't clear out the dpkg terminal log from building the live filesystem
<maco> kirkland: done
<kirkland> maco: thanks
<kirkland> cjwatson: hmm, why is ecryptfs-utils installed, and then uninstalled?
<cjwatson> kirkland: that's how the live filesystem works
<cjwatson> that's irrelevant. ignore it.
<kirkland> cjwatson: ah
<kirkland> cjwatson: okay
<kirkland> cjwatson: i'm beginning to regret the prerm script
<cjwatson> oh, bah, I see the problem; /target isn't mounted yet when the code runs in which I added this logic
<cjwatson> so I didn't actually manage to fix bug 361627 at all, and it should be reopened and these two new bugs duplicated against it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 361627 in user-setup "should not remove ecryptfs-utils when in use" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/361627
<cjwatson> sorry about that :(
<kirkland> cjwatson: bummer
<kirkland> cjwatson: i'm going to mark these duplicates of the user-setup bug
<cjwatson> there are some hooks available in which I can fix this instead, for karmic
<kirkland> cjwatson: are there some post-release notes where we can document this?
<cjwatson> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/JauntyJackalope/ReleaseNotes
<kirkland> cjwatson: it seems to mostly affect people installing where their /home pre-exists on a separate partition, right?
<cjwatson> no, I don't think it matters whether /home is separate
<cjwatson> it affects people installing over an existing system, without reformatting, where they were previously using ecryptfs
<kirkland> cjwatson: specifically from the livecd
<cjwatson> yes
<kirkland> cjwatson: b/c i've tested upgrading via the update-manager
<kirkland> cjwatson: from intrepid to jaunty
<cjwatson> yes, upgrades will be fine
<kirkland> cjwatson: though i never tested with the livecd
<kirkland> cjwatson: okay, so we'll need to release note something about recommending upgrading via update-manager, rather than a livecd for users with existing encrypted-private setups
<cjwatson> yes
<kirkland> cjwatson: can i add that release note myself, or do i need to go through slangasek ?
<incorrect> I don't know if this is off topic, but I am looking for some documentation about how the netboot.tar.gz is created
<josephpiche> hi. i was wondering if someone could point me in the right direction for getting the source for the "Services" control panel--I'm looking to develop a simple UFW control panel
<josephpiche> I actually wrote a blueprint for it too, but i figured i'd start working on it anyway
<nijaba> josephpiche: dpkg -S services-admin -> gnome-system-tools, so 'apt-get source gnome-system-tools' should give you the source.
<slytherin> Hi, need help please. I did a fresh install of jaunty today. The first user created is not in sudoers list. Hence I am not able to do any administrative operations.
<josephpiche> nijaba: thank you
<cjwatson> kirkland: feel free to add it yourself
<cjwatson> incorrect: it's created as part of the build process of the debian-installer source package
<Ampelbein> slytherin: are you in the admin-group? also, please use #ubuntu for general support.
<nijaba> slytherin: the appropriate chan for this is #ubuntu, but the user should be part of the admin group, which is in the sudoers
<slytherin> anyone have any idea what could be the problem? Is it related to encrypted home directory anyway?
<cjwatson> incorrect: there's documentation in the doc/ directory of that source package
<cjwatson> slytherin: dunno, need syslog
<cjwatson> /var/log/installer/syslog specifically
<slytherin> Ampelbein: nijaba: I can't even check that since I have no access to any admin GUI tools.
<slytherin> cjwatson: let me look
<cjwatson> you'll need to be root to read that, so boot in recovery mode
<cjwatson> from which you can add yourself to the admin group, too
<incorrect> thank you cjwatson
<slytherin> cjwatson: how to I boot in recovery mode with yaboot? This is a powerpc machine
<cjwatson> slytherin: 'Linux single'
<slytherin> cjwatson: will be back in 5 minutes
<tclineks> shouldn't linux-image-virtual make a /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.28-11-virtual, not /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.28-11-server ?
<tclineks> i can't have both -server and -virtual installed
<cjwatson> maybe it should, but -virtual is literally just -server with some files removed
<cjwatson> there's no point installing both
<tclineks> i was goign to perf test
<cjwatson> don't see how the performance would differ in any way; it's literally the same bits in the kernel image
<tclineks> really
<cjwatson> the only purpose of the -virtual package is to be smaller
<tclineks> oh
<tclineks> i thought there were kernel config differences
<cjwatson> nope
<slytherin> cjwatson: here is my installer log - http://paste.ubuntu.com/157356/ I used powerpc alternate CD and choose encrypted home directory option.
<slytherin> cjwatson: I have to rush to catch a bus. If you need any more info I will be available around same time tomorrow.
<cjwatson> Apr 24 05:37:40 user-setup: Setting up encryption ...
<cjwatson> Apr 24 05:37:40 user-setup: ERROR: Can't get ecryptfs version, ecryptfs kernel module not loaded?
<cjwatson> Apr 24 05:37:40 user-setup: adduser: `/usr/bin/ecryptfs-setup-private -b -u onkar' returned error code 1. Exiting.
<cjwatson> kirkland: ^- from a d-i installation with encryption
<cjwatson> kirkland: powerpc-specific maybe?
<cjwatson> mm, I bet ecryptfs is modular on powerpc
<slytherin> I saw two similar bugs but in that case home directory already existed. In my case it was complete clean install.
<cjwatson> your bug is entirely different
<slytherin> got to go. Bye. And thanks for help. At least I now know a workaround.
<cjwatson> NCommander: http://paste.ubuntu.com/157364/ look OK to you assuming that you fix linux-ports to build -generic not -ia64-generic?
<NCommander> cjwatson: yeah, that looks good, I need to create a git tree for karmic though
<cjwatson> no problem, it doesn't seem much of an issue for -meta so I didn't bother
 * NCommander sees if he can remember how do to it
<NCommander> git branches are freaking evil
<infinity> NCommander: lpia-wrapper accepted, BTW.  And seeding now.
<NCommander> infinity: yay, my first karmic upload
<infinity> NCommander: We won't discuss that, by my recent actions, you won't actually be able to update it...
<infinity> NCommander: Congrats on the end-run around ACLs.
<NCommander> woo, MOTU uploading to main :-P *shot*
<NCommander> cjwatson: branch made, committing
 * NCommander fixes cjwatson's patch to apply against git vs. the uploaded package
<pitti> cjwatson: doing debhelper merge now
<jcole> per seb128: "Could somebody having the issue open the bug on http://bugzilla.gnome.org where exchange hackers will read it too and can work on it? The ubuntu bug triagers have no access to exchange server"
<jcole> seb128: there is no bug for them to fix, its just a matter of ubuntu jaunty not having the latest
<seb128> jcole: dunno what you are speaking about, I commented that on quite some evolution-mapi bugs
<seb128> jcole: and that has to be proved
<jcole> seb128: wouldnt the best way to prove/test it is to have a ppa populated with the svn snapshot of evolution-mapi/samba4/openchange and have people install that
<seb128> jcole: ok, worded different bugs sitting in launchpad helps nobody
<seb128> jcole: we don't have access to exchange server so better to open those bugs upstream and close them if they reply it's fixed in new versions
<jcole> seb128: i donwloaded the sources for all those packages, but i am not familiar of the reorganization the debian/ubuntu maintainer has done to those packages
<seb128> jcole: you can work on ppa snapshots if you want
<jcole> heh
<jcole> seb128: oh, i submitted a bug using apport and approt created a new bug... should i delete/close the original bug i opened?
<seb128> jcole: what do you mean?
<seb128> jcole: you use apport to open a bug and it opened a bug
<seb128> seems normal to me?
<jcole> seb128: oh, i thought you were saying i opened 2 of the same bugs that were worded differently... you must be referring to everyone
<seb128> jcole: right, I just mean that we have nobody working on exchange since nobody has access to exchange servers
<seb128> jcole: so it's better to get all those bugs sent by submitter to GNOME
<seb128> jcole: there people having access to exchange and having a clue about the code can read those, fix issues and reply
<jcole> seb128: one can also install an openchange server in jaunty (which also speaks the libmapi protocol)... but the openchange server in jaunty is old, so you go in a circle, lol
<jcole> seb128: uill see what i can do on making some ppa packages
<jcole> ill*
<pitti> cjwatson: (FYI, the dh_installudev merge is pretty hairy conffile black magic, I'll finish this on Monday
<infinity> cjwatson: Oh, hah.  Right.  I was all excited about having livefs stuff setup earlier than in any previous release opener... And then E: No such script: /usr/share/debootstrap/scripts/karmic
<infinity> cjwatson: Go me. ;)
<G__81> congrats to everyone for a successful 9.04 release
<G__81> keep up the great work
<cjwatson> infinity: yeah, committed to Debian already but need to upload :)
<infinity> cjwatson: No big deal.  Was just looking forward to testing and making sure I didn't mess anything up. ;)
<NCommander> cjwatson: is the live rootfs stuff available publicly? (I'm curious to see how it works)
<infinity> NCommander: livecd-rootfs, in the archive.
<infinity> NCommander: Also a ~core-dev branch on LP.
<NCommander> Ah, very cool
 * NCommander now works on his plan to build HPPA liveCDs
<NCommander> bahahahahaha
<infinity> NCommander: There's no real rocket science involved, just a hideous shell script that's evolved over the years to work around various "issues" with automatically installing a working system.
<NCommander> infinity: which architectures historically have had liveCDs, i386, amd64, powerpc, and ia64, right?
<infinity> NCommander: All arches have livefs builders, and CAN produce livecds.
<infinity> NCommander: The only arches anyone's ever deeply cared about were the typically "desktop" ones (i386, amd64, powerpc, lpia, and now armel)
<NCommander> infinity: the cdimage system seems to only care about the ones I listed (plus MID on lpia)
<infinity> NCommander: antimony's perfectly capable of buildin for all arches.  Some have been disabled for a while, mind you  *shrug*
<infinity> NCommander: But we've built them all in the past.
 * NCommander wonders how badly the cdimage team would slaughter me if I asked for them to be turned back on ...
<infinity> NCommander: Prove to me that you can actually get a livefs build to complete on each arch, and we'll talk about turning them into bootable ISOs. :P
<infinity> NCommander: Baby steps.
<NCommander> infinity: where are the livefs logs?
 * NCommander will do it for every machine he has :-)
<infinity> NCommander: people/~ubuntu-archive somewhere.
<NCommander> thanks
 * NCommander returns to his kernel hacking
<infinity> NCommander: But the trick, of course, is that there are no logs for arches that antimony's not triggering.
<NCommander> so I have to run the script on a machine by hand?
<infinity> NCommander: I could, of course, manually trigger builds on all of them sometime, when you're in the mood to fiddle.
<NCommander> I don't really liket o bug you on my pet projects :-/
<infinity> NCommander: (We'll talk after karmic's a bit more open?)
<NCommander> Sure, I still have to de**** the ia64 kernel (my upload to halley just finished)
<guest__> on behalf of my IDOL RANDALL I c0me in here to c0me on all your faces & fuck you all & you're FUCK you all & your Jaunty Jackalope shitty 0s & as long as you'll piss him off i'll piss on your 0s
<ScottK> !ops
<ubottu> Help! bhale, infinity, Hobbsee, jdub, thom, fooishbar, fabbione, mdz, lamont, or Keybuk
<lamont> i wonder.  is it faster to go disk -> USB ... USB -> disk, or disk -> LAN -> disk
<jpds> lamont: Network is always faster.
<lamont> yeah - was coming to that conclusion, 45 min and 20% of the way through... :-)
<lamont> time to find a couple patchcoords
<kirkland> anyone here using Jaunty with an encrypted home directory and KDE?
<ScottK> I think your odds are better in #kubuntu-devel
<NCommander> kirkland: no, bu I can setup such a beast
<YokoZar> hah http://www.ubuntu.com/files/countdown/static.png  went from "it's here" back to "coming soon"
<kirkland> NCommander: if you can, can you try to lock the screen, and then unlock it?
<LaserJock> YokoZar: in 179 days :-)
<YokoZar> says 9.04 though
<NCommander> kirkland: sure, but I probably won't get to it soonish :-/
<LaserJock> YokoZar: must be talking about the SRU flood :-)
<kirkland> NCommander: no problem.  i'll subscribe you to the bug
<kirkland> NCommander: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ecryptfs/+bug/336303
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 336303 in ecryptfs "unlocking screen after kde autologin takes too long" [Medium,Incomplete]
<mrooney> kirkland: I've been meaning to try Kubuntu, should it duplicate fine in a VM?
<mrooney> kirkland: do I need to use the alternate installer for that?
<mrooney> I'll just hope the preseed value works in Kubuntu as well
<kirkland> mr_pouit: yeah, totally
<kirkland> mrooney: ^
<kirkland> mrooney: you should be able to do it in a vm
<kirkland> mrooney: you can use the alt installer, or the livecd installer with the preseed option on the kernel line
<mrooney> kirkland: okay excellent thanks. by the way I've been doing a bit of work on the ecryptfs-ui and hope to have something which can install, setup, and manage a private directory
<mrooney> ...to show at UDS
<kirkland> mrooney: cool, can't wait ;-)
<mrooney> and hopefully allow key retrieval in either home or private, as that seems pretty important
<mrooney> yeah I want to set up a ~/Private but am not going to do it until I can do it with the app, so as to force me to work on it :)
<mrooney> kirkland: hm either I typed that value wrong or it doesn't work in kubuntu, I can try again
<mrooney> I don't see that third option in the installer on step 5
<kirkland> mrooney: did you enter the preseed value correctly?
<mrooney> kirkland: that's what I meant, maybe I did that incorrectly, I put it right before the --
<mrooney> I'll try again :)
<nixternal> james_w: lol, I thought you were core-dev already? what has taken you so stinkin' long?
<directhex> huh? james_w is climbing the ladder?
<mrooney> kirkland: does this look right? http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5117/screenshotc.png
<LordMetroid> Anyone been to the UDS at sometime?
<cody-somerville> I have
<yoasif> where is UDS this year
<LordMetroid> Barcelona
<yoasif> nice
<LordMetroid> All I've done for Ubuntu so far has been to file bug reports
<LordMetroid> But I thought it might be fun to go down with car from Sweden and attend
<LordMetroid> (okay that sounded crazy!)
<yoasif> if they had transatlantic ryanair flights, id do it
<LaserJock> UDS is loads of fun
<LaserJock> I especially liked the last Spanish UDS
<LordMetroid> But me, I've never been much involved in the Ubuntu development, how would it be for me?
<LordMetroid> Can I contribute anything?
<LaserJock> you could certainly learn a lot
#ubuntu-devel 2009-04-25
<LaserJock> and there are a lot of discussions, I usually find it very hard to pick which ones to go to as there are many at the same time
<LordMetroid> I've never been to a summit before, I really need to get out and meet people more.
<LordMetroid> And I would be going through Denmark, Germany, France having fun and sampling the culture and cuisine once again
<LaserJock> yeah, if you can afford to go it's a great experience
<mdke> can we upload to karmic?
<LaserJock> mdke: I don't think so yet
<mdke> will things be held in a queue or just rejected?
<mdke> (I see a few things on karmic-changes but maybe those are exceptional
<kees> mdke: the toolchain is still being finalized
<LaserJock> mdke: I suppose you could give it a shot, but generally we do wait until the toolchain is up and working
<mdke> ok, fair enough
<mdke> I'll keep my releases in bzr only for a bit :)
<cjwatson> mdke: feel free to upload; they'll be held in a queue
<cjwatson> infinity: debootstrap 1.0.13 is on its way in now, with karmic support
<LordMetroid> karmic support?
<cjwatson> yes
<LordMetroid> What does that mean...
<cjwatson> the next Ubuntu release will be called "Karmic Koala"
<cjwatson> its codename, that is
<LordMetroid> I know, but for debootstrap to support karmic, what does that mean.
<LordMetroid> I don't find anything through google about that...
<cjwatson> debootstrap needs to have explicit support for each release it might be asked to install
<cjwatson> in this case, it's pretty trivial, just a symlink
<LordMetroid> ohh, nice
<cjwatson> I'm not sure why google would be helpful here
<cjwatson> we have to do a bunch of stuff like this when opening each new release; it's pretty routine
<LordMetroid> I've never been all that involved in the development of a release
<LordMetroid> I managed to scratch the surface but I have no idea where to go to get really involved
<LordMetroid> See what is happening and all
<cjwatson> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewReleaseCycleProcess is what we have to do to get each new release ready for developers to contribute
<LordMetroid> I subscribe to the announcements mailing-list(though an announcement is only made every month or so unless they want to say, please do 5 a day)
<cjwatson> LordMetroid: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/25947235/debootstrap_1.0.12_1.0.13.diff.gz has some other changes as well, but the relevant change for this is right at the bottom
 * cjwatson -> bed
<LordMetroid> nigh cjwatson
<LordMetroid> *night
<jdong> tjaalton: are you familiar enough with the vmmouse driver to play "crack or not crack" with me? :)
<jdong> so the problem is, it seems like modern vmware+vmmouse, when you click down the mouse it sends ButtonDown, MotionEvent(0px or 1px), ButtonUp
<jdong> this combination of events causes a drag to be interpreted.
<jdong> often times this means right-clicking for a context menu automatically selects the first thing
<jdong> (it interprets it as you right-clicked, dragged to the first item, then let go)
<jdong> now... how to correctly work around this?
<jdong> I tried a simple one-liner that disallows posting both a move and a button change event at the same time, and it's pretty effective but not perfect
<jdong> still even a miniscule move of the mouse while clicking gets caught as a drag.
<jdong> would implementing a couple millisecs of time awareness into a buttondown in which motion events are discarded be insane?
<bryce> jdong, have you tried 12.6.3?
<jdong> bryce: I stole a tarball from Debian Sid whatever that version is
<jdong> yeah 12.6.3
<jdong> same bug persists
<jdong> holding the mouse as still I I can, clicking always generates a down, move, up event.
<bryce> jdong, hrm
<bryce> jdong, have you talked with upstream about this?  I've been exchanging emails with philip langdale the past couple days on vmmouse
<jdong> it might be my host (VMware fusion 2.0.2)
<jdong> but in any event IMO the guest mouse driver shares some responsibility in filtering out nonsense and making it behave more like a mouse.
<jdong> and no, I haven't had contact with upstream
<bryce> fwiw I'm considering merging up a backport of vmmouse for jaunty...
<jdong> if you're in regular contact with them and want to poke this issue to them too, it'd be well appreciated
<bryce> however if it's too buggy
<jdong> it'll require a bit of packaging changes (conflicting mdetect), other than that so far it looks good here
<bryce> no, I don't really have the time to do a lot of troubleshooting (I never use vmware myself)
<bryce> but if you work with them and get a patch, I'd be open to including it in the backport
<jdong> ok
<bryce> I can put you in contact with philip if you'd like to bypass the usual process
<bryce> er, "directly"
<jdong> that'd be cool
<bryce> jdong@ubuntu.com ?
<jdong> yep
<bryce> jdong: ok, start a bug and give me the bug # and I'll include it in the email
<jdong> bryce: bug 366521
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 366521 in xserver-xorg-input-vmmouse "VMWare fusion host + vmmouse driver generates drag events on any click" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/366521
<bryce> awesome, thanks
<jdong> sure thing
<jdong> yeah interestingly in this xev capture, it raised a completely null MotionNotify event...
<jdong> i.e. motion to the exact same coordinate as the buttonpress one.
<jdong> that's clearly wacky behavior ;-)
<bryce> email sent
<jdong> thanks
<bryce> hopefully it'll be something simple :-)
<bryce> for some reason I have a sinking fear it is due to something busted in xserver
<jdong> yeah I'm not sure exactly what the physical mice drivers do
<jdong> but it's always nailed the differecne between a click vs click-drag for me
<jdong> but vmmouse is kinda ridiculous
<jdong> right now EVERY click is a click-drag
<jdong> and with my one-liner hack if you even BREATHE on the mouse it turns into a drag.
<jdong> I've seen a bit of mailing list banter on QT's list about this
<jdong> it in fact is bad enough that their click-to-sort table widgets don't work with vmmouse
<bryce> you know, the symptoms you've described I had seen myself, although only with firefox, and it's long since gone away so I'm sure it' sunrelated...
<bryce> heya andresmujica
<jdong> but QT folks adopted a very novel approach by claiming MotionNotify is for "logical motion"
<jdong> (aka it's not our problem fix it elsewhere)
<bryce> in any case, if nothing else I sympathize with how irritating it is
<jdong> haha thanks :)
<jdong> it's crazy I'm the only one who's complained about it so far
<jdong> not many people run Ubuntu in VMWare it seems
<bryce> I think a lot of people moved from vmware to kvm
<jdong> (at least not a GUI)
<bryce> I used to get lots of bugs about ubuntu+vmware, pre-kvm
<jdong> yeah, if I'm on a Linux host I'll jump to KVM first
<jdong> but on this hardware OS X is the best native platform (the one that gives me least grief setting up)
<jdong> so it'd be nice if I can run a couple Ubuntu instances
<calc> jdong: i use vmware with ubuntu
<bryce> heya calc
<jdong> calc: do you get the crazy mouse symptoms I see here?
<calc> jdong: i haven't noticed any problems with it yet with 6.5.2 other than the keyboard issue (it might be fixed for 6.5.2 i had to fix it in 6.5.0)
<jdong> calc:  a quick and dirty test: gnome-terminal, do a dmesg
<calc> hmm let me see
<jdong> calc: then do a single left click on any leftover blankness of a line of output
<jdong> see if the entire blank area gets selected.
<jdong> or better yet, xev, click the mouse and see how many events fire
<calc> ok
<jdong> should just be down then up
<jdong> I get down, motion, up.
<calc> only one press/release when i hit a button
<calc> hmm let me try a few more times
<jdong> calc: interesting, perhaps it's VMWare Fusion specifically that is implicated.
<jdong> I did mention in my bug report it was on Fusion
<calc> i get notify events if i click inside the black square but only press/release for the other area
<calc> i am not completely up to date 9.04 in my vm though
<jdong> hmm
 * calc does an update and sees what it does
<calc> also i'm running amd64
<jdong> yeah this is 64-bit Ubuntu in my VM too
<jdong> it's probably that your parent X server "numbs" motion events while clicking for you.
<jdong> I'm betting OS X does use the GUI toolkit abstraction layer to weed out nonsense drags
<jdong> I can imagine drag filtering being incredibly annoying to a graphics designer or a leet gamer.
<calc> ah maybe so, i'm running 9.04 amd64 -> vmware -> 9.04 amd64
<jdong> right, I suspect the parent X server's mouse driver is playing a role
<calc> well when i click i'm not making any motion at all
<jdong> nor am I attempting to do so
<calc> i'm using a laptop so its simply a keypress and that is all
<jdong> in my testing above the mouse is off the table (optical)
<calc> ah ok
<jdong> and the Motion event is for the exact coordinate of the click :)
<jdong> which makes it even more idiotic
<calc> heh
<calc> hmm apparently the servers are so loaded its causing even approx to hang for me, ugh
<jdong> oh it's not a fun day at all in archive land :)
<andresmujica> hi bryce!
<andresmujica> hi all
<bryce> andresmujica: o/
<infinity> cjwatson: Yay, thanks.
<infinity> cjwatson: I'll update the livefs stuff and triple-check that it works sometime early in the weekend, so I can sleep soundly for the rest of the weekend knowing that my "new release" work is more or less done. :)
<LordKow> whom/where would i file ubuntu wiki bugs at? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebootstrapChroot does not work for jaunty. i believe it has to do with the fact that recommends are now installed by default. if you follow the how to exactly as it describes then you are left with a broken chroot env
<mdke> cjwatson: thanks for the info
<jpds> LordKow: Well, it's a wiki - so you can do so yourself, but you can look at who did the previous edits for advice.
<LordKow> jpds: ah i see. i thought maybe the wiki was a little more controlled than that. im not just going to edit it... maybe there is some sort of commenting feature i can utilize.
<joaopinto> LordKow, how is it broken, what problem are you getting ?
<jpds> LordKow: Yes, there's a 'Comment for this edit:' field.
<LordKow> joaopinto: 'apt-get install wget debconf devscripts gnupg nano  #For package-building' when installing devscripts it wants to install dbus which will most definitely not work in a chroot. apt errors out in the dbus postinst script when it tries to start the service. and then it errors out again when trying to remove it (prerm script)
<LordKow> im not really sure why devscripts needs dbus in the first place. im guessing there is a dep that maybe (incorrectly?) depends on dbus... i can't see how any devscript or any of it's deps would need dbus. that is a pretty rich package though so i could be missing something.
<joaopinto> LordKow, you will need apt-get install --no-install-recommends ...
<joaopinto> LordKow, it does not depend on dbus, it's a "recommends" relation
<LordKow> joaopinto: ah okay. so it was between intrepid and jaunty release that ubuntu went with the install recommends by default (following debian guidelines)?
<joaopinto> I believe it was during intrepid
<LordKow> joaopinto: perfect, --no-install-recommends took care of it. now it should be passed along to the wiki page which im working on figuring out right now
<LordKow> joaopinto, jpds: thanks for the help
<rjune_> Where can I find some short examples on how to work with libapt-pkg?
<PingJocky> Quick one... Is there a different Kernel Between ubuntu and ubuntu NBR in 9.04?
<Nafallo> no
<PingJocky> thanks!!! i have been looking everywhere for that
<PingJocky> something aint right with the ACPI and my eeepc 1000 isnt chrging
<PingJocky> Ill submit a bug report and roll it back to 8.10 with the array kernel
<larsivi> I have to ask - why is Ubuntu 9.04 released with a dysfunctional intel xorg driver?
<LaserJock> larsivi: basically because it was the best we got
<larsivi> LaserJock: I understand the complications of package and kernel dependencies, but there has been a constant regression since 8.04 meaning that maybe keeping with some older versions would have been a better compromise
<LaserJock> larsivi: except there's problems matching Xorg and driver versions I believe
<LaserJock> larsivi: I don't know that the old driver on newer Xorg worked any better
<larsivi> LaserJock: so then one could have opted for an older Xorg too
<larsivi> Am I wrong in thinking that most users have intel cards?
<calc> larsivi: at least as far as 2.4 vs 2.6 goes they both suck in different ways according to the phoronix performance tests anyway
<LaserJock> larsivi: which would have caused problems for everybody else
<LaserJock> larsivi: yes, you are
<LaserJock> larsivi: I think anyway there are more nvidia/ATI out there presently, I could be wrong though
<calc> LaserJock: "most" is true but not an overwhelming majority
<calc> intel has by far the majority marketwide... not sure about ubuntu users specifically
<larsivi> calc: I wasn't suggesting a 2.4 kernel :P
<LaserJock> calc: more intel than everything else combined?
<calc> larsivi: i'm talking about intel driver version number
<larsivi> calc: hehe, ok :)
<calc> LaserJock: not to that extent but iirc its over 40% intel (maybe 50%)
 * calc looks at the data again
<LaserJock> calc: yeah, I could believe that
<LaserJock> my point was that holding Xorg back is not an easy decision
<calc> http://jonpeddie.com/press-releases/details/computer_graphics_chip_shipments_dive_in_q4_08_according_to_jon_peddie_rese/
<LaserJock> especially if you think the -intel drivers are going to be better than they were
<calc> intel has 47.8% according to that site for shipments for 2008
<LaserJock> calc: well, on new machines sure
<calc> 47.8% for Q42008, was 49.4% 2008Q3
<LaserJock> calc: I was just thinking of all our users out there, I'm guessing quite a few still have nvidia/ATI
<LaserJock> there are quite a few machines still being used form before Intel was even really in the market
<LaserJock> *from
<calc> LaserJock: yea for Ubuntu users specifically the makeup may be different but Intel has been at ~ 50% for many years
<larsivi> anyway, this appears to have been known for quite some time (more than 6 months), so I find it a bit curious that those that can (Canonical?) haven't spent more resources on it
<calc> nvidia seems to actually be losing marketshare as time progresses
<LaserJock> larsivi: I think pretty much all who could, did what they could
<calc> and ! (AMD/Intel/Nvidia) percentage-wise is just noise
<LaserJock> larsivi: we had several testings of different options, it just seemed like every change would help some but not others
<calc> according to the numbers for laptops (where most Intel IGP is used anyway) the numbers are actually ~ 60% for Intel
<LaserJock> larsivi: http://keithp.com/blogs/Sharpening_the_Intel_Driver_Focus/ might be a good read
<larsivi> LaserJock: in 8.10 things were slow for me (couldn't use desktop effects), but now it is close to unusable (although desktop effects are fast enough now) due to graphical glitches and absurd cpu usage
<larsivi> LaserJock: I follow the xorg mailing list
<LaserJock> larsivi: right, so helping the Ubuntu X team and upstream to figure out why you're having problems is probably worthwhile
<LaserJock> larsivi: for me 8.10 was just fine, 9.04 I get GPU lockups when using desktop effects
<LaserJock> such is life sometimes :/
<calc> LaserJock: i think part of the reason we see more non intel users on Ubuntu is due to them being power-users and thus willingly to pay more for the nvidia binary only drivers :-\
<LaserJock> calc: surely there are a lot of people using older machines though too
<LaserJock> calc: I only have one machine with an Intel card because most of my machines were built before Intel was commonplace
<larsivi> LaserJock: yeah, I have put forth my information in the relevant places
<calc> perhaps that is true for very old machines < 8 years old
<LaserJock> calc: ?!
<calc> intel has dominated the graphics market since probably shortly after i810
<calc> er > 8 years old (over i used the wrong symbol)
<LaserJock> calc: I only really started to see them ~ 2 years ago
<calc> LaserJock: a lot of marketshare is in business desktops which has used integrated intel graphics nearly forever
<LaserJock> calc: ah, that'd make sense
<calc> in 2005 it appears intel had somewhere ~ 35% market share with ati taking second place at 24%
<LaserJock> larsivi: anyway, yeah, -intel suckage is kind of a known thing, but it wasn't for lack of trying to get something better
<calc> roughly the same in 2006
<LaserJock> calc: good grief, really? I'd never heard of an intel graphics card until probably 2007
<LaserJock> or wait, 2006 maybe
<LaserJock> darn, had it been *that* long since Dapper?! :/
<calc> 2004 mobile market intel had 40% (the 2005/2006 numbers were for desktop above)
<larsivi> I have the 965 now, before that the 915 which I bought in a laptop early 2005
<highvoltage> hey LaserJock
<larsivi> the 915 came a long time after the 810 stuff
<larsivi> LaserJock: so assume that 40% of ubuntu users have intel graphics cards, and maybe half of those experience issues, that would mean that 20% of jackalope users would have issues with it that are obvious and easy to notice - that is a blocker in any other software
<calc> it looks like 2003 overall share intel had ~ 32%
<calc> with ati at 25%
<LaserJock> larsivi: yeah, but there wasn't much that could be done unfortunately
<LaserJock> larsivi: hopefully 9.10 will be *much* better on that front
<larsivi> LaserJock: no offense meant, but that is bullshit - that is a fix to delay a release for
<calc> overall we need to do what our users require and using hwdb to track that would be useful :)
<LaserJock> larsivi: for how long?
<LaserJock> larsivi: the problem isn't even really known as far as I know (I'm not an X expert by any means)
 * calc thinks the current ubuntu user breakdown would have lots more ati/nvidia than the overall marketshare numbers would otherwise indicate
<larsivi> LaserJock: I would have lost my job 10 times if I had released software that didn't work for 20% of the users
<LaserJock> larsivi: I don't think there's any gaurantee that with a delay of even a month or two that things were going to be much better
<LaserJock> larsivi: it's not our software, it's Intel's and Xorg's
<larsivi> but ubuntu pick it
<sistpoty> maybe there'll be updates?
<LaserJock> larsivi: we could have decided to not ship an -intel driver, yes
<larsivi> now I'm a private user, so I may not switch, but as a commercial user I would have dropped Ubuntu over this issue
<LaserJock> sistpoty: hopefully
<LaserJock> it'd really be nice to get things better for sure
<sistpoty> larsivi: I assume as a commercial user you wouldn't run jaunty right after its release, but maybe go with hardy instead?
<larsivi> sistpoty: that is a point, but for the desktop I don't find the LTS that important
<sistpoty> *shrug*, was just a guess
<larsivi> when that is said, as a proffesional user I actually find it a bit problematic that python haven't been upgraded to 2.6
<LaserJock> larsivi: you mean in 8.04?
<larsivi> LaserJock: yes - sorry for confusing matters a bit
<LaserJock> yeah, adding a whole new python version isn't really -updates territory
<larsivi> anyway - will leave you with my bile for now :P
<LucidFox> When is karmic development going to start?
<calc> LaserJock: i think larsivi didn't get the fact that he would have to drop all Linux shipped ~ 2009 to avoid this intel problem
<calc> LaserJock: already has
<calc> LaserJock: the toolchain is being worked on now
<LaserJock> calc: right, yeah, I guess the perception is that we just picked the wrong version and that's it
 * calc read the keithp post, sounds good going forward
<calc> hopefully no one decides to rewrite xorg again next month :\
<calc> LaserJock: fortunately places like phoronix have made it clear that there wasn't really a choice
<LordMetroid> Do the UDS cost anything to attend?
<[reed]> no, they are free... of course, travel is yours to pay unless you get sponsored
<[reed]> LordMetroid: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDSKarmic
<LordMetroid> thanks
<ScottK> jcastro: Thanks for the link to the Intel video blog post.
<ScottK> I'd feel better if he'd mentioned UXA is pretty unstable for a lot of people and they were fixing that.
<Nafallo> hmm. UXA is the thing that made compiz eat my memory I think :-)
<LucidFox> calc> Ah, I see... https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/karmic
<LucidFox> What I meant was, when is it going to be unfrozen?
<LucidFox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KarmicReleaseSchedule has April 30 as "toolchain uploaded"
<LaserJock> LucidFox: the toolchain is being worked on right now
<LucidFox> Yes, I realize this :)
<ScottK> LucidFox: When it's ready.
 * LucidFox nods
<ScottK> LucidFox: You can upload stuff now, it'll just get held until the archive opens.
<LordMetroid> This is ridiculus
<LordMetroid> Ubuntu has only gotten slower and slower, now gedit is even unable to render the characters at the same moment I type them.
<LordMetroid> This problem needs to be addressed or is Ubuntu only intended for high end computers...
<rendero> hello, what changed since kernel 2.6.28, because i cannot establish a ppp <-> nas interface and connect to internet anymore
<LordMetroid> They replaced the kernel with Ms code
<mneptok> LordMetroid: do you have Compiz enabled? if so, disable it.
<LordMetroid> Nope
<mneptok> LordMetroid: what does (h)(a)top say?
<LordMetroid> (h)(a)?
<mneptok> htop atop
<mneptok> choose yer poison
<LordMetroid> brb, installing one of them
<mneptok> LordMetroid: before you join a developer channel and rant about the lack of quality and performance problems, using basic tools to actually check your own machine is a best practice.
<LordMetroid> I have run top
<mneptok> and?
<mneptok> what process is utilizing the most CPU cycles?
<LordMetroid> X.org
<mneptok> and what video chipset and grpahic driver are you using?
<LordMetroid> An ATI Radeon Mobility 7600
<mneptok> and whose driver?
<LordMetroid> X is occupying like 40%
<LordMetroid> The default from installation
<mneptok> alt-F2
<mneptok> metacity --replace
<mneptok> restart X
 * mneptok whistles the "Jeopardy!" theme
<mneptok> cr3!
<cr3> mneptok: hey dude!
<mneptok> cr3: our final weekend in .qc, we leave on Tuesday. got back from the MySQL conf @ 3am last night. :(
<cr3> mneptok: sounds painful, where was the conf?
<mneptok> cr3: Santa Clara
<mneptok> (Silicon Valley)
<Julieh_> ipoo
<Julieh_> suck my dick
<Julieh_> -.-
<LordMetroid> I figured it out, subpixel rendering is the demon in this...
<mneptok> no, your video driver is
<mneptok> subpixel smoothing works just fine on my Intel chipset
<LordMetroid> Turning off subpixel rendering on the text solved it though
<Amaranth> LordMetroid: VBGR?
<LordMetroid> VBGR?
<LordMetroid> RGB
<Amaranth> Ok then, something is wrong with your driver
<Amaranth> Although even a CPU from the time that GPU came out should be able to do subpixel rendering without using 40% CPU
<LordMetroid> hm
<Amaranth> Unless you have that GPU but a 500Mhz CPU or something :P
<LordMetroid> I got a 2.4GHz P5
<LordMetroid> *p4
<LordMetroid> mobile variant(if there is such)
<Amaranth> You should be able to do full software rendering without using 40% CPU then as long as you aren't trying to use compiz :P
<Amaranth> LordMetroid: Try with the vesa driver
<LordMetroid> how do I change?
<Amaranth> LordMetroid: edit your xorg.conf
<LordMetroid> xorf.conf is empty
<Amaranth> LordMetroid: If it doesn't chew CPU with vesa the bug is in the radeon driver
<Amaranth> LordMetroid: dexconf then
<Amaranth> LordMetroid: Did you file a bug, btw?
<LordMetroid> Yes, I have, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg/+bug/366224
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 366224 in xorg "Rendering artifact on text in firefox and gedit" [Undecided,New]
<Amaranth> yeah, that bug is going to be the driver
<LordMetroid> restarting the X server to see if it take effects
<afflux> could someone explain why ubuntu does not ship static versions of libgcj? I couldn't find info on that...
<dtchen> bug 448789
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 448789 could not be found
<dtchen> debian 448789
<ubottu> Debian bug 448789 in gcj-4.2 "Static libgcj is not supplied for gcj-4.2" [Important,Closed] http://bugs.debian.org/448789
<afflux> thanks
<directhex> afflux, why is static linking desired? debbuntu generally relies on a "include things only once" rule, which is pretty dynamic-linking-reliant
<afflux> directhex: I thought it was common to include .a files in -dev packages. In this case I need them for a work project, so I'll go rebuilding gcj.
<directhex> directhex@desire:~$ apt-file search -x \\.a$ | cut -f1 -d':' | sort | uniq | wc -l
<directhex> 2354
<directhex> some packages do
<afflux> I agree
#ubuntu-devel 2009-04-26
<crweb> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1136920  - Lots of people experiencing this with NVidia chipsets
<cumulus007> Hi, I'm looking gor a way to translate Ubufox to my local language
<cumulus007> *for
<AlfredE_Neumann> hey hey hey
<m0u5e> there needs to be a osd-notify config gui :(
<m0u5e> im always trapped into clicking the notification only to have it become transparent >_<;
<m0u5e> if i click it, it should focus the application it's reporting about :D
<steveire> Hi. Does anyone know much about partman? I'd like to try to find a workaround for this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/366282
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 366282 in ubiquity "Install partitioner does not detect existing partition table" [Undecided,New]
<cjwatson> that would be me. let me look
<cjwatson> steveire: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Installer/FAQ#Why%20does%20the%20installer%20think%20there%20are%20no%20partitions%20on%20my%20disk?
<cjwatson> I've reassigned your bug to parted, but it'll need that partition table dump in order for us to get anywhere with it
<cjwatson> (fdisk output is no good really)
<steveire> cjwatson: Thanks. I've attached it now.
<steveire> Would it help if I repartitioned using another tool?
<cjwatson> it would help if you could leave it alone for now so that you can test fixes, if possible :-)
<cjwatson> in particular please leave it alone until I've had a chance to analyse this, because I may also need to get a dump of your extended partition table(s) and if you repartition you may destroy that
<steveire> Ok, will do.
<ScottK> m0u5e: The upstream IRC channel for notify-osd is #ayatana.
<m0u5e> scottK thx
<jpds> m0u5e: I believe the options are meant to be in the individual application.
<jpds> -s*
<jpds> m0u5e: And that transparency thing is supposed to be intended behaviour.
<NCommander> morning
<steveire> cjwatson: How many extended boot records will there be? One for each extended partition?
<theclaw> hi
<theclaw> it seems that libglx.so in ubuntu jaunty is broken. Xorg.0.log says "compiled for 1.5.2, module version = 1.0.0", and doesn't look it because of the old ABI version
<theclaw> *doesn't load it
<tseliot> theclaw: what does this command say? apt-cache policy xserver-xorg-core
<theclaw> just a second
<theclaw> http://paste.ubuntu.com/158656/
<tseliot> theclaw: weird. What's the output of this command? dpkg-divert --list | grep glx
<theclaw> nothing
<theclaw> hmm, I just remember that I use 3D on my notebook with opensource radeon drivers, so the problem must be on my side
<tseliot> theclaw: try with: sudo apt-get install --reinstall xserver-xorg-core
<theclaw> I already tried that
<theclaw> I also submitted a bug report today, but nothing so far
<tseliot> can you reproduce the problem using the livecd?
<theclaw> I should give it a try, but I don't have it at the moment (downloading would take ~1 hour)
<theclaw> but on your system, you get "compiled for 1.6.0"?
<tseliot> let me check
<tseliot> theclaw: yes, I get "compiled for 1.6.0". Something must have gone wrong with your dist-upgrade
<theclaw> tseliot: can you give me the md5sum of your libglx.so? Mine is 24f2308b074c437dba73dd1845f6ee15
<tseliot> theclaw: http://paste.ubuntu.com/158661
<Q-FUNK> what would be the correct package to assign bug #362689 to?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 362689 in cups-pdf "cups-pdf printing missing after Jaunty upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/362689
<tseliot> hmm, same md5sum
<theclaw> tseliot: that's really strange then.
<theclaw> thanks for your help
<tseliot> theclaw: let's continue in the bug report
<theclaw> rebooting did help.
<theclaw> Now it works, however, doing a /etc/init.d/gdm {stop,start} didn't help
<theclaw> (sorry, I meant doing a stop and then doing a start, the {} notation could be confusing)
<tseliot> theclaw: aah, so you didn't reboot. Ok, please update the bug report
<tjaalton> or just close it as invalid
<tseliot> tjaalton: s/or/and/ ;)
<theclaw> I did reboot after updating to jaunty, but just restarted X after updating the drivers
<theclaw> what a shame
<tjaalton> you probably had some fglrx-crud on your system
<theclaw> how to close a bug as invald?
<theclaw> hmm.. some nvidia crud maybe
<tjaalton> on a radeon system?
<theclaw> yes, I changed my gfx card
<tjaalton> ok
 * tseliot marked the report as invalid
<theclaw> Yep, I noticed it, thx
<Commander1024> Hi. Is here anybody present with quite deep knowledge about the ubuntu-initramfs scripts, I may bother for a problem?
<Commander1024> it's iscsi related
<Commander1024> I hope this is the correct Channel to bother, if not would you mind pointing me to the correct one?
<ryanakca> Commander1024: #ubuntu would be a better place to ask... and just ask :)
<Commander1024> thnx for the advice ;_)
<Laney> where do update-manager hooks live?
<ahe> could someone point me to a developer description of tasksel? basically i want to know how to create new tasks from scratch. i know of the task definition in /usr/share/tasksel but i would like to know where those tasks and their dependencies are definied
<ahe> i only found a user documentation page so far
<smbm> hi everyone, is here the place for help with packaging? if not where is good?
<yoasif> smbm: #ubuntu-motu
<smbm> cheers
#ubuntu-devel 2010-04-26
<samd> hi, im using lucid rc, i just removed a package using apt-get purge and the process ends up with a segmentation fault, the package seems to be removed tho
<Keybuk> slangasek: yay, I literally don't need my GPG key anymore ;)
<Keybuk> you sign and upload for me <g>
<ion> :-)
<Keybuk> james_w: random question; how is the lp:ubuntu/lucid -> lp:ubuntu/maverick transition handled?
<Keybuk> psusi: I've read your patch
<psusi> Keybuk, and?  what did you think?
<Keybuk> psusi: I replied to your mail, but basically I like the idea
<Keybuk> it's what I was trying to do with that code before, but I didn't know how to get the disk locations
<Keybuk> I didn't know you could call readahead() on the actual disk like that, does it actually work?
<psusi> Keybuk, seems to... it sped up my boot a bit... the way you had it before the calls into e2fslibs to get the next inode just did a synchronous read() of the inode table of the current block group, then once it had returned all the used inodes there, read() the next group and returns the first entry there... the read() calls read into the buffer cache, then copy the requested inode to the user buffer
<psusi> readahead() just queues the read into buffer cache and doesn't bother taking a copy
<psusi> after some discussion on the mailing lists it seems that there just isn't much you can do about readahead() blocking when it has to read the indirect block or external extent tree node to locate the rest of the blocks
<psusi> so it seems the best thing to do is to have ureadahead map where all the data blocks PLUS indirect blocks are during profile, and call ureadahead() for all of those blocks on the block device, rather than going through the filesystem
<psusi> of course if defrag manages to reduce the extents a file occupies to 4 or less so they all fit in the inode, then it doesn't make much difference
<psusi> but I still have some work to do to have defrag properly expand and contract the size of the extent tree
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> if we can readahead() directly on the block devices, then we can avoid the overhead of open()ing every single file
<psusi> exactly
<psusi> but to avoid the overhead of the open() later when the file is actually needed we want to readahead() the blocks of the directories on the path to the files
<psusi> calling readahead() on the block dev allows us to queue the reads in the background without blocking, and hopefully gets the directory blocks read, and in optimal order, so that they are there when the normal boot process tries to open() those files
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> makes sense
<psusi> need to find an e2fslibs call to map the indirect blocks or extent tree blocks used by the file though
<psusi> and add the to the block list in the pack file
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> may need to write one of those
<Keybuk> can I just break a moment
<Keybuk> I need to go out of the balcony and start screaming into the San Francisco air
<Keybuk> because some fucking idiot has broken lvm ;)
<Keybuk> (an upstream fucking idiot)
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> back
 * Keybuk understands why lvm2 device nodes fail to get mounted during boot
<persia> why?
<psusi> ?
<Keybuk> because some idiot merged the broken package I'd deliberately not merged
<Keybuk> well
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> that's unfair
<Keybuk> the idiot is the upstream who wrote the broke software in the first place :p
 * psusi is just pissed that lvm does not handle mirrors for shit
<persia> It doesn't actually expose the events?  Will your fix mean that we can actually autodetect and autoload dm_mod as a bonus?
<Keybuk> I don't think I can fix it
<Keybuk> I simply know how it's broken
<Keybuk> dm_mod is built-in
<Keybuk> *that's* not a problem
<persia> Ah.  I'll stop asking then, so you can get past the pain of understanding the breakage but not the fix.
<Keybuk> I'm not going to bother understanding the fix
<Keybuk> we need to hire an lvm expert
<Keybuk> or drop it
<Keybuk> but I understand why it's broken
<psusi> what's broken about it now?
<Keybuk> it doesn't respond to "add" events anymore
<Keybuk> almost the inverse of the change you made to dm-raid ;)
<Keybuk> so basically, if an lvm device gets brought up before cold-plugging (say in the initramfs)
<Keybuk> the "add" event caused by the cold plug gets ignored by lvm
<Keybuk> so udev never learns about it
<persia> Ah, that explains the wonkiness that happens when a USB cable falls out when one has a VG that spans multiple USB drives.
<Keybuk> so blkid is never run
<Keybuk> so permissions are never set
<Keybuk> so mountall never sees it
<Keybuk> so upstart never sees it
<Keybuk> etc.
<Keybuk> yeah, probably other bugs too
<Keybuk> oooh
<Keybuk> no, this is an easy one line fix
<psusi> wait, I dropped the change event from dmraid and left it only responding to add... upstream changed lvm to not respond to add?
<Keybuk> yes
<Keybuk> changed devmapper in fact
<psusi> wtf?  when the hell is it supposed to detect the drive then?
<persia> magic
<Keybuk> apparently devmapper "always changes the device"
<Keybuk> except, say, if udev wasn't running when that happened
<psusi> sure... ignoring CHANGE is one thing... ADD is another...
<Keybuk> I can understand why they thought that
<Keybuk> you always get "add /block/dm-0" when the devmapper device is created
<Keybuk> but that's always before the table is loaded (which is a separate ioctl)
<Keybuk> loading the devmapper table means you get "change /block/dm-0"
<Keybuk> (this is one of the reasons I think your dm-raid patch is wrong, fwiw)
<Keybuk> so devmapper only really needs to respond to "change" events
<Keybuk> at least
<Keybuk> when you look at it that way
<psusi> yea, but who cares unless you are trying to use a logical volume as a physical volume?
<Keybuk> this is always the case for devmapper and lvm
<psusi> eh?  add event for /dev/sda1 needs to trigger an lvm scan to see if it is a pv..
<Keybuk> you're misunderstanding
<Keybuk> I'm not talking about the underlying block devices
<Keybuk> I'm talking about the devmapper devices
<Keybuk> they're block devices too
<Keybuk> called /block/dm-N
<psusi> yea, don't need to scan that unless you are trying to use an lv as a pv...
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> again
<Keybuk> you're misunderstanding
<Keybuk> I'm not talking about *lvm*
<Keybuk> I'm talking about *devmapper* itself
<psusi> or a dmraid array as a pv...
<Keybuk> when a dm-N block device is created
<Keybuk> we need to query it to find out what kind of devmapper device it is
<Keybuk> we need to *make a device node in /dev* for it
<Keybuk> (so we need to know what it's name is, e.g. /dev/mapper/foo-bar)
<Keybuk> we then need to run blkid on it, to see what kind of filesystem is inside
<Keybuk> then
<Keybuk> maybe
 * psusi nods
<Keybuk> it's something else like lvm, in which case we add /dev/vg/lv symlinks
<Keybuk> or maybe the filesystem is actually an lv or something sure
<Keybuk> but that's just stacking
<Keybuk> what I mean is some idiot disabled all those rules (create device node for dm devices, run blkid on them, etc.) for the "add" event
<psusi> I thought it didn't matter for the add event, since the device is empty at that point... have to do all that during change
<Keybuk> that's clearly what the person with no brain thought
<Keybuk> but
<Keybuk> during boot
<Keybuk> what if the devmapper device is created before, say, udev is run?
<Keybuk> then udev never knows about it
<Keybuk> so we "coldplug" udev
<psusi> ohh, then you only get the coldplug add event
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> so
<Keybuk> on boot
<Keybuk> all the dm devices that existed before udev were run ...
<Keybuk> now don't get processed
<Keybuk> and that neatly explains this bug
<psusi> yep...
<psusi> Hans did this?
<Keybuk> no idea who did it
<Keybuk> but it's wrong
<Keybuk> badly wrong
<Keybuk> (that being said, it partially explains a change to udev that will break dm-raid with your patch :p)
<psusi> well, I still think the right thing to do is remove the partition table support from the kernel entirely and have udev invoke partx or similar to detect partition table and create partition devices ;)
<Keybuk> I don't disagree
<Keybuk> except that would make an initramfs mandatory
<psusi> yep
<psusi> but Ubuntu does not support installs that don't use an initramfs right? so...
<persia> There are many folks who want them though.
<Keybuk> yes we do
<Keybuk> it's a perfectly acceptable variation
<Keybuk> we put a not unreasonable amount of effort into continuing to support it
<psusi> well, acceptable sure if you want do deal with the config changes needed.. but not the default...
<Keybuk> it's not the default, but it's *entirely* supported
<Keybuk> in fact, it's very little config change
<Keybuk> sed -i -e "/do_initrd/s/yes/no/" /etc/kernel-img.conf  iirc
<Keybuk> (and change the root= line)
<psusi> well, imho if you want to continue to have the kernel support reading partition tables on dmraid disks then the kernel partition code needs extended to detect dmraid signatures and ignore disks that have tnem
<Keybuk> I think we should round up everyone who knows about dmraid
<Keybuk> and kill them
<Keybuk> and burn the evidence
<Keybuk> and then round up everyone who knows how to recreate dmraid
<Keybuk> and kill them too
<psusi> but at the same time, that is more complexity than I feel belongs in the kernel, hence, fuck it, move it to udev rules and get the partition table code out of the kernel ;)
<psusi> hehe
<psusi> yea... especially dmraid level 1 arrays
<psusi> stripe is one thing, but people using fakeraid mirrors need slapped silly
<psusi> since it does not have write intent bitmaps or handle errors
<Keybuk> heh
<Keybuk> I like my good old raid-1 mdadm mirror
<Keybuk> it's nice and simple
<psusi> except with the --incremental bug reassembling diverged legs of a mirror
<Keybuk> I don't know about that bug
<Keybuk> (and don't want to :p)
<psusi> heh... plug in one disk, boot degraded, reboot with the other disk only, boot degraded... which is now the default...
<Keybuk> huh?
<psusi> and now you have to degraded arrays that have diverged from the original unified mirrored state... boot with both disks, and mdadm can put them back together assuming they are still in sync even though they are not and you end up with a fucked up filesystem that contains parts of both
<Keybuk> the default is "don't boot at all"
<Keybuk> at least it was
<Keybuk> in case of disk failure, we always used to fail
<Keybuk> not automatically repair or continue without the other half
<psusi> naw, default now seems to be wait to see if the other disk shows up for a while, and if it times out, boot degraded
<Keybuk> fail
<RAOF> Could I get an xserver-xorg-video-intel upload sponsored on bug #541511?  It's just to drop the patch to disable DRI on 855 and 845 which didn't help as much as we thought it would.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 541511 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "MASTER: [i855] GPU lockup (apport-crash)" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/541511
<psusi> not a problem there in and of itself... if one disk has actually failed, then booting degraded can be better than not at all for a remote machine
<psusi> problem is that should the next boot only find the second disk, now youh ave both degraded and mdadm incorrect glues the two back together if the third boot sees both disks
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> which is why we didn't boot degraded
<Keybuk> a server should never come up broken
<psusi> when the metadata on disk 1 days disk 2 failed and was removed, and the metadata on disk 2 says the reverse... mdadm --incremental happily reinserts disk 2 into the running array when invoked from udev on add
<Keybuk> a sysadmin should be despatched to your DC to investigate
<psusi> and if the event count happens to be the same mdadm assums they are in sync and does not bother doing a resylc when it recombines the disks
<psusi> so you sometimes can read data from disk1, and sometimes from disk 2, and they are not the same
<Keybuk> dispatched too probably
<Keybuk> I suspect despatched is a completely different work ;P
<Keybuk> yeah
<Keybuk> raid failure is bad
<psusi> naw, booting degraded the first time is good... since at least you have a server up and running, and emailing the admin that a degrade has occured
<Keybuk> it's a manual fix, not an automatic one
<Keybuk> no it isn't
<Keybuk> you should never bring a server up with a known failure
<Keybuk> that server is no longer redundant
<Keybuk> it should stay off
<Keybuk> a sysadmin should pull the affected disk
<Keybuk> and replace it
<psusi> yea, but it's no worse off than it would be if you weren't using raid 1
<Keybuk> then the server should be brought up
<Keybuk> you never bring up a server *without* raid
<psusi> or if the second disk had failed while the system was already up and running
<Keybuk> then you shutdown the system
<psusi> naw, you rebuilt using a spare disk hopefully, if you have one ;)
<psusi> if not, then the admin hopefully gets the email about the failure quicly and does something about it
<Keybuk> my thinking on this is probably more "enterprise"
<Keybuk> systems *do not* come up broken
<Keybuk> you have engineers employed to work at the data centre in case of a remote failure
<psusi> why not?  is there really any difference between coming up degraded, and becoming degraded while already up?
<Keybuk> it sounds like "small town ISP" thinking is creeping into the server team
<Keybuk> "if my remote server fails, I have to drive all the way downtown to fix it"
<Keybuk> psusi: no, but becoming degraded while up is an instant shutdown event
<psusi> not usually
<psusi> that's one of the big reasons people use raid 1... if a disk fails you don't crash and have down time while you replace it
<psusi> default config is to email root telling them HEY!  DISK WENT BAD... AND I AM OR AM NOT AUTOMATICALLY REBULDING WITH SPARE
<psusi> hopefully you have the spare so the system automatically returns to redundant status quickly
<ScottK> Of course we go to great lengths to avoid MTAs ending up in systems unless someone asks for it, so the odds of that email getting anywhere useful are not so great.
<psusi> probably should not do that...
<jdong> psusi: http://jdong.mit.edu/~jdong/ureadahead-pack.svg
<jdong> psusi: y...yeah, some defragging needed (tm)
<Keybuk> jdong: heh, what did you do to generate that?
<psusi> jdong, neat, what do the colors mean?
<Keybuk> different files I guess?
 * ccheney thinks he found a bug or something wrt networkmanager and ipv4/ipv6 support
<ccheney> might already be reported though
<ccheney> if you have ipv4 and ipv6 both set to automatic but you don't have something to provide the ipv6 address it doesn't work at all, ie no ipv4 address either
<ccheney> is that supposed to happen?
<sladen> ccheney: can't quite follow.  Can you find it (with more details, screenshots, etc)
<sladen> ccheney: certainly one of {ipv6,ipv4} failing should not be preventing the other from working, if there is the wherewithall to do so
<sladen> ccheney: s/find/file a big/
<sladen> ccheney: s/find/file a bug/
<jdong> Keybuk: indeed different files; the svg is generated by a hackish python script that reads ureadahead --dump
<jdong> the code is at bzr branch http://bradmisik.com/trunk/fragraph/
<Keybuk> jdong: I think the hackish python should be published ;)
<Keybuk> ah, sweet
<jdong> my friend wrote the code, lol I tossed him the idea early last week and he ran with it I guess :)
<jdong> I just wanted code to generate tree-ring graphs for an unrelated project, but this is pretty neat too :)
<jdong> but yeah, now that you're here, you can do a quick sanity check to make sure we're interpreting ureadahead's output correctly
<Keybuk> each character is a page
<Keybuk> @### represents a fragment of the file that's read in
<Keybuk> with @ marking the first page, and # marking the rest of the pages read in that block
<Keybuk> @##@## means an apparently contiguous part of the file is actually in two fragments
<Keybuk> the numbers below are the same, but in terms of bytes and blocks
<Keybuk> so yea
<Keybuk> looks like you are
<jdong> temugen, meet Keybuk; Keybuk, meet temugen  :)
<temugen> Nice to meet you.
<jdong> temugen: congrats. you just got the Keybuk stamp of approval (tm) :)
<jdong> and for the record, this is his ext3 disk on his messy thinkpad ;-)
<Keybuk> so yeah
<Keybuk> it's something like
<temugen> Heh. Thanks. It's not entirely accurate, but I thought it was reasonable for one slide of a presentation
<Keybuk> <tab>offset, len bytes at diskpos
<Keybuk> you grab the len and the diskpos
<Keybuk> so that'd be correct afaik
<jdong> *nods*
<Keybuk> pretty > accurate ;)
<jdong> so wow, bootup files are virtually scattered across the disk then
<Keybuk> jdong: now you know why I'm so keen for us to switch to btrfs
<jdong> Keybuk: hehe I look forward to that :)
<temugen> jdong: It's still slightly skewed since I don't draw the entire disk - only from the lowest read bootup block to the highest
<jdong> Keybuk: speaking of that, *driveby bug* do you know what ureadahead doesn't seem to pick up a btrfs root fs?
<temugen> and depending on the macroblock size it'll obviously look more clustered
<Keybuk> jdong: doesn't pick up?  how do you mean?
<jdong> Keybuk: I don't get a pack generated for my /
<Keybuk> what error do you get?
<jdong> Keybuk: I don't get any error, just I only have packs for my boot and var/run mountpoints
<Keybuk> jdong: kooky
<jdong> I suspect it's yet another can't-match-the-UUID style bug?
<Keybuk> jdong: wouldn't have thought so, if it gets mounted!
<Keybuk> ureadahead doesn't care about such things
<Keybuk> maybe btrfs doesn't support FIEMAP?
<Keybuk> it should do though
<jdong> what's a quick way to test that?
<Keybuk> temugen: ooi, what are your plans for this code long-term?
<Keybuk> jdong: err, strace ureadahead I guess ;)
<Keybuk> it's about the only thing that uses that ioctl
<temugen> Keybuk: my plans long-term were to give jdong a pretty slide for his presentation XD
<Keybuk> haha
<jdong> hahaha :)
<jdong> Keybuk: what are *your* long-term wishes for this code? :)
<Keybuk> would you have any objection if I included it in ureadahead?  and maybe in the future ported it to C as another --dump mode? (with full credit to you, of course)
<temugen> No objections at all
<temugen> I think it could use a little bit of cleanup before that, but I'm never satisfied with my own code regardless
<Keybuk> I'd need to know your licence terms for that ;-)
<Keybuk> ureadahead is GPLv2 - is that to your liking?
<Keybuk> jdong: OOI, if you're running btrfs, how do you get around http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=575891 ?
<ubottu> Debian bug 575891 in dpkg "dpkg makes wrong assumption about readdir() and lose metadata files with btrfs" [Important,Fixed]
<Keybuk> oh, because apparently Colin backported it to lucid
<Keybuk> in the _most_recent_ update ;)
<jdong> Keybuk: (1) hehe was that why for several months I was randomly losing gconf default schema
<jdong> (2) I saw the commit fly around the btrfs mailing list, and built my own btrfs from dkms
<Keybuk> jdong: yeah, maintainer files had a tendency to go missing
<jdong> ah, fun :)
<ajmitch> because who cares about data as long as you've got the latest crack FS? :)
<jdong> ajmitch: hey, I consider myself sacrificed for the science of testing :)
<ScottK> ajmitch: If it's not jdong, it's not crack.
<temugen> Keybuk: That is fine.
<ajmitch> ScottK: he's been known for such things for a long, long time
<ScottK> Yep.
<ScottK> There was something he recommended against because it was too insane and everyone immediately backed away.
<jdong> hahaha I vaguely recall that :)
<Keybuk> temugen: sweet, thanks :)
<kirkland> Keybuk: hiya ...  have you tested raid much at all in 10.04?
<jdong> Keybuk: is "ureadahead: Unable to obtain rotationalness for device 0:17: No such file or directory
<Keybuk> as soon as we get a grub2 patch for btrfs, I'm going to switch again
<jdong> normal?
<Keybuk> kirkland: I don't test raid
<Keybuk> jdong: hah, devmapper?
<kirkland> Keybuk: i've spent the last two days fighting lucid/raid
<Keybuk> kirkland: raid sounds like the kind of thing the server team should test ;-)
<jdong> Keybuk: oh yeah, LVM
<jdong> Keybuk: is that why?
<kirkland> Keybuk: we usually cover it in vm's
<temugen> Keybuk: No problem. If you have any ideas for it, I'm all ears.
<kirkland> Keybuk: my experience this weekend on real hardware hasn't been good :-/
<Keybuk> jdong: yeah, LVM have no underlying extends/devices/etc.
<Keybuk> you end up with a slew of ureadahead warnings/errors followed by it ignoring the device
<Keybuk> iirc
<jdong> Keybuk: oh okay. awww so lvm and LUKS users don't get ureadahead love for now?
<Keybuk> kirkland: not really something I care about, sorry
<Keybuk> jdong: I don't think it's "for now" so much as "ever"
<jdong> Keybuk: hehe okay :)
<Keybuk> figuring out the on-disk extends and ordering of an encrypted filesystem ...
<Keybuk> that sounds more like a *science* project!
<kirkland> Keybuk: when at an initramfs prompt, I can see a /dev/md0 and a /proc/mdstat that shows it operational;  when i try to "mount /dev/md0 /root" in (initramfs), it fails, with Invalid Argument
<jdong> Keybuk: and btw, have you seen ibuclaw's forward-porting of legacy grub device detection to grub2?
<Keybuk> or the kind of thing where, if I succeeded, I'd be immediately hired by the NSA
<jdong> Keybuk: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1389279 "Hack GRUB2"
<Keybuk> jdong: no, source?
<Keybuk> kirkland: someone on the server team should be able to help with that ;-)
<jdong> Keybuk: that's the patch I'm using so that update-grub behaves on btrfs
<jdong> Keybuk: origin is bug 450260
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 450260 in grub2 "grub-probe fails with btrfs root (and ext3 /boot)" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/450260
<Keybuk> jdong: ah, that's different to having grub root device support
<kirkland> Keybuk: sorry, it's not the server team that has reinvented the boot process ;-)
<jdong> Keybuk: oh yeah, right, I misunderstood your complaint :)
<Keybuk> hmm
<Keybuk> jdong: that bug is actually really quite interesting
<kirkland> Keybuk: none of the old tricks that use to work, work any more
<jdong> Keybuk: yeah, that patch is also needed for a btrfs root even with ext3 boot
<Keybuk> kirkland: if you're at an initramfs prompt, you're not into the boot process yet - and you're in an area that's barely changed since dapper
<Keybuk> jdong: right
<Keybuk> now
<Keybuk> that's REALLY interesting
<Keybuk> you're on btrfs root right now?
<jdong> yeah, I've got a Karmic system up, and can boot up a Lucid VM.
 * Keybuk joins up two dots and sees a dog
<jdong> both btrfs root
<Keybuk> jdong: can you grab the output of "stat /" for me?
<jdong> Keybuk: http://paste.ubuntu.com/422540/
<Keybuk> aha!
<Keybuk> so that ureadahead warning/error wasn't from devmapper
<Keybuk> it was from your btrfs root, right?
<jdong> Keybuk: correct
<Keybuk> riiiight
<Keybuk> sorry
<Keybuk> I didn't join the dots
<Keybuk> yeah
<Keybuk> now that makes sense ;)
<jdong> cool
<Keybuk> ureadahead assumes that it can get the major/minor of a given filesystem by stat() on the mountpoint
<jdong> yeah my lucid VM is devmapper-less and still doesn't generate a pack :)
<jdong> ah
<Keybuk> and convert that into a /sys/dev/block/%d:%d lookup
<Keybuk> which it then uses to get at the queue/rotational file ;)
<Keybuk> so for you it's looking for /sys/dev/block/0:17/queue/rotational
<Keybuk> which doesn't exist
<Keybuk> when it should be looking for /sys/dev/block/8:0/queue/rotational
<jdong> ah
<Keybuk> so yeah
<Keybuk> exactly the same bug as update-grub actually ;-)
<Keybuk> just in different code
<jdong> makes sense. I was assuming the two were related
<jdong> do I need to file a bug about this, or is this in the back of your mind? :)
<Keybuk> yes, please file a bug
<Keybuk> the back of my mind keeps falling off
<jdong> I know what you mean :) Will do!
<Keybuk> temugen: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~scott/ureadahead/trunk/revision/109
<temugen> Keybuk: haha, I like the summary. Awesome. :)
<jdong> :) awesome
<jdong> temugen: ^5
<temugen> Keybuk: just a heads up - there's a template.svg script that the visualizer uses for building the svg file. I might submit a patch later to inline it, but I'm letting you know anyway
<Keybuk> ah
<Keybuk> I missed that?
<Keybuk> added
<ArneGoetje> Laibsch: the Takao fonts are derivatives of the official IPA fonts, which contain bug fixes that may go back into the IPA fonts. The IPA fonts are the industry standard fonts in Japan and it is highly desired that we ship and use them by default in order to gain market share in Japan.
<pitti> Good morning
<RAOF> pitti: Good morning.
<csurbhi> good morning #kernel
<pitti> kees, jdstrand: ugh, qa-regression-testing is > 500 MB now? what have you guys done? :-)
<ccheney> sladen: oh ok, sorry i got plugged away from irc for a couple hours, so what i did was enabled ipv6 'automatic' just like is default for ipv4 in networkmanager 'edit connections' for my particular wifi setup
<ccheney> sladen: when i do that it refuses to connect at all since my router doesn't actually support ipv6 or at least it seems to do that (checking again to verify)
<ccheney> sladen: yea i have to set ipv6 'ignore' before it will let me connect again
<ccheney> sladen: i saw someone mention this issue on the comcast ipv6 test forum, they are about to start testing for widespread ipv6 rollout on their cable network in the US
<maco> ccheney: finally
<ccheney> i think the rollout probably won't happen until late next year, some of the hardware manufacturers still don't have ipv6 support aiui
<ccheney> but the testing is happening now to determine what bugs are still left
<ccheney> one thing that would keep it from being seamless for ubuntu appears to be ipv6 is disabled by default and if you enabled it and don't have ipv6 on your network it keeps the connection down completely even for ipv4 (which seems odd)
<ccheney> unless i am somehow doing something wrong, which if that is the case it seems non-intuitive
<ccheney> maco: if you have comcast you can sign up for ipv6 test group still :)
<ScottK> There's an open bug against (IIRC) eglibc about delays in this case, but not oughtright failure
<ccheney> hmm they appear to have removed the sign up page now, maybe its not open any more
 * ScottK is a former Comcast customer due to a desire to have reliable internet
<RAOF> ccheney: Your experience mirrors mine - network manager bails if it can't get an ipv6 address, even though the dhcp server has provided a perfectly acceptable ipv4 address.
<ccheney> http://www.comcast6.net/volunteer.php
<ccheney> still open just didn't see it
<ccheney> RAOF: ok
<ccheney> who took over NM from asac, anyone happen to know?
<maco> ccheney: i heard, but im not the one whose name is on the comcast account at this flat
<maco> ScottK: ever get a 4-month outage with comcast like i did?
<ccheney> maco: ok
<ccheney> maco: 4-month outage, eek
<maco> that would be the first and only 4 months during which i had comcast "service" at my old place
 * ccheney has never had any trouble with them here in houston area
<ScottK> maco: Not 4 months, but I had business class service with them and so what I did have was far and away unacceptable.  Once FIOS arrived in my neighborhood, I was a former customer.
<maco> i moved in in april and signed up with them... and in september i gave up and called RCN. RCN got it working within 3 hours :P
<LinuxGuy2009> Hi guys Im working on a DVD that will boot all of the buntu flavors from one disk. So far I have Ubuntu and Kubuntu finished for it. When I get it all done it will contain Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Studio and maybe Edubuntu depending on free space on the disk. I'm now wondering what my options for hosting this image would be. I'm not sure if its possible to get it hosted with canonical or if I would just need to get a goda
<LinuxGuy2009> Its basically a DVD with a folder with iso files and a custom grub4dos boot menu(s).
<LinuxGuy2009> http://imagebin.org/94400
<mantiena> LinuxGuy2009: we can offer you a mirror in Lithuania :) You can upload your image to ftp://ftp.akl.lt/incoming/
<LinuxGuy2009> mantiena: Ok Ill take a look. Thank you!
<LinuxGuy2009> mantiena: If I start a little web page for it, can i just wind up linking to your hosting there?
<LinuxGuy2009> For the downloads I mean
<mantiena> LinuxGuy2009: yea, but you shouldn't link 'incoming' folder. You can upload any files to 'incoming', but you can't remove them by yourself - when you will upload final version just write an email to mantas@akl.lt and rq@akl.lt - then we move these files to 'Linux/Ubuntu' subfolder
<LinuxGuy2009> mantiena: Great! thank you
<mantiena> I'm very interesting in one DVD with all *ubuntu flavours :)
<LinuxGuy2009> mantiena: Yeah many people are interested and trust in me, its coming!
<mantiena> It's nice way to check memory requirements of every *buntu flavour
<LinuxGuy2009> yep
<LinuxGuy2009> I still havent decided if I will distribute it as the basic ISO which is 1.5MB currently and then the user would download it, open it with something like ISO-Master drop in the iso files and save the final ISO. Burn and boot. Thats it. Or to have the 4+GB image.
<Mirv> can someone confirm (or the opposite) that 8.04 LTS -> 10.04 LTS will only be enabled around 10.04.1 times?
<Mirv> ie. the mentioning of the upgrade possibility in update-manager
<Mirv> I believe that was the case with 6.06 LTS -> 8.04 LTS, but I cannot find any documentation to back that up
<mantiena> LinuxGuy2009: You can build 2 iso files - one with Ubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Studio (without Kubuntu) and another with Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Lubuntu, Studio (without Ubuntu). Most people already know Ubuntu and Kubuntu and most Ubuntu/Kubuntu users already have a Ubuntu or Kubuntu CD, so, I think it's not important to have Ubuntu and Kubuntu in one DVD image
<LinuxGuy2009> Hmm interesting point of view
<LinuxGuy2009> mantiena: not sure of a name yet. Maybe something like multibuntu or something I dont know yet.
<RAOF> pitti: Is there still time to get a new xserver-xorg-video-intel uploaded?  We need to revert the DRI disablement patch.
<pitti> RAOF: that sounds ... intrusive?
<pitti> RAOF: is there a bug report for it with the details?
<RAOF> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/541511 is the main one.
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 541511 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "MASTER: [i855] GPU lockup (apport-crash)" [Unknown,Confirmed]
<RAOF> It references https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Bugs/Lucidi8xxFreezes
<RAOF> Which we're release-noting, because everything we've tried fixes for some and breaks for others.
<pitti> RAOF: hm, wasn't it just disabled two weeks ago to fix this bug?
<RAOF> Yes.  It doesn't fix the bug (for everyone) and appears to makes things worse (for some).
<pitti> sounds like being between a rock and a hard place then
<pitti> RAOF: I guess it's easy for an user to disable DRI themselves?
<RAOF> Yup.
<RAOF> The decision was to revert that patch to make it easier to test & SRU *actual* fixes that are being worked on upstream, and release note all the various work arounds that work for different people.
<pitti> RAOF: ok; can you please add an ubuntu-release-notes task and propose a text snippet, and get it uploaded so that it's ready for review?
<RAOF> I can't upload myself; I'll add the release-notes task.
<pitti> RAOF: I can sponsor
<RAOF> The debdiff is attached at the end of that bug.
<RAOF> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/45412341/reenable-dri-on-845-855.debdiff
<RAOF> bryceh has already got text for that on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidLynx/ReleaseNotes
<robertzaccour> anyone here develop for xubuntu?
<robertzaccour> great theme for xubuntu and no new one ain't a bad thing, hard to imagine a much better one :)
<mantiena> pitti: maybe you know why there are no daily iso images in cdimage.ubuntu.com since April 19 ?
<pitti> RAOF: hm, do we have evidence that the regressions affect 845, too?
<pitti> mantiena: the cronjobs are off; images are triggered manually until the final release
<RAOF> pitti: The regressions with disabling DRI on 845?
<pitti> RAOF: yes; your current debdiff seems to re-enable it on both i845 and 855
<mantiena> pitti: so, where I should ask for new daily image? There are ~150 updated packages since release candidate image (build on April 19), including ubiquity-casper, ubiquity installer, libc and other important packages, it would be nice to have an ability to test these improvements
<pitti> mantiena: it's planned to build new ISOs today
<pitti> mantiena: but in general, asking in #ubuntu-release is the right place
<mantiena> pitti: thanks for info
<RAOF> Right.  Let me check my launchpad-fu.  Certainly we know that the disablement isn't *fixing* the bug on i845.
<RAOF> pitti: I can't seem to russle up anything definitive on whether disabling DRI on 845 has caused regressions.
<pitti> RAOF: hm, perhaps we should leave it disabled on 845 then, for now?
<RAOF> Hm.  Apart from the *obvious* regression that 845 can no longer do 3D at all.
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> right, but that was on purpose :)
<RAOF> Some of the problem is that the 845 and 855 bugs have become a bit intertwined.
<pitti> hey dholbach
<RAOF> Morning dholbach
<dholbach> hi pitti, hey RAOF
<pitti> RAOF: it's weird that disabling DRI would work worse, though
<RAOF> The bug is timing dependent.
<pitti> RAOF: anyway, do you need some more time to check about i845?
<RAOF> There's a reasonable contingent of 855 owners for whom everything was working acceptably (they were probably getting crashes every couple of days, but what doesn't crash? ;)).  I'm concerned that there's a similar contingent of 845 owners who haven't complained because the 855 users had already filed the bugs.
<pitti> RAOF: so it seems we can't disable/reenable DRI in an SRU then; but for upgraders it'll be a regression either way then
<RAOF> I'm not entirely sure how to parse that.  We can't reenable DRI in an SRU; there's no way we could declare that to be sufficiently safe of regressions.
<pitti> right, that's what I mean
<pitti> but we can't disable it either, if that causes new crashes, too
<pitti> so it seems we should take a look at which problems it causes either way
<pitti> i. e. a crash every three days with DRI is much better than immediate X startup failure, etc.
<RAOF> The annoying thing about these bugs are that they're sensitive to the timing of GPU commands.  Which may be why *some* people found disabling DRI to help, and some found no difference, or that X died early.
<robertzaccour> how do i update grub in xubuntu?
<robertzaccour> i know in gnome its how to update grub gksudo gedit /etc/default/grub but what is it in xfce?
<pitti> RAOF: ok, so what's your recommendation based on the available bug feedback?
<robertzaccour> hey RAOF i remember you
<pitti> (I skimmed it, but there are way too many comments to get an overview in a few minutes)
<RAOF> I recommend that we drop the patch to disable DRI for both 845 and 855.  855 is easy to recommend.  845 is more borderline, but (a) disabling DRI doesn't actually *help* very much and (b) if upstream fixes it - and it seems like that might be possible - we won't be able to SRU DRI back on.
<RAOF> Leaving i845 users without 3D for the entirety of Lucid.
<pitti> RAOF: ok, thanks
<pitti> RAOF: ok, sponsored
<pitti> slangasek: ^ discussion wrt. current -intel upload
<pitti> slangasek: it reverts the patch from two weeks ago, seems it was an un-improvement after all
<pitti> I'm back in ~ 1 horu
<RAOF> Thanks, pitti
<james_w> Keybuk: scary script run by the LOSAs
<Keybuk> james_w: ok, they know to run that scary script?
<Keybuk> we included it in the NewReleaseProcess ?
<james_w> Keybuk: yup
<james_w> Keybuk: I emailed them last week to check that they were ready, and apparently they are.
<slangasek> RAOF, pitti: very unhappy that we're flip-flopping on these patches so close to release; why was debian/patches/107_disable_dri_on_845_855.patch applied post-beta2 to begin with?  Did we have what we thought was solid confirmation of the fix before uploading?
<RAOF> We had solid confirmation from one person that disabling DRI worked for them, and a couple of other people also suggested that it fixed the problem for them.
<slangasek> RAOF: as an aside, I would really prefer that uploads *drop* patches, instead of simply *disabling* them in series; it makes it much easier to see in a debdiff what's really going on
<RAOF> slangasek: Noted for future debdiffs.
<slangasek> RAOF: ok - anyway, when push comes to shove (and it has), I agree with you and pitti that it's better to make this change before release than after
<slangasek> so - accepted
<slangasek> pushes ISO generation out, but hopefully only by 30 min or so
<RAOF> In hindsight, it's possible that we didn't get negative results for disabling DRI before we pushed the patch because the people for whom disabling DRI broke things weren't actually looking at the bugs, because *their* systems worked acceptably.
<slangasek> (since I'm now afk to head into the office)
<slangasek> RAOF: sure, that's often the case :/
<doko> savely arrived in London?
<slangasek> yep
<slangasek> RAOF: my doubt is whether we got enough positive confirmation before pushing the patch - if the change had actually helped more people, I guess the conversation today would be different
<slangasek> because "broke it for some people, but helped a bunch of others" != "broke it for some people, and didn't help most of the people it was supposed to"...
<RAOF> I think we were a bit desperate for a knob to turn to make it better at that point; we might have been too eager to do *something*
<slangasek> that's often the case :)
<slangasek> anyway, thanks for following through on this
 * slangasek afks
<docdawning> Quick question - I'm interested in getting involved in development of applets and whatnot for the Gnome notification panel.. Does any of this sort of stuff get managed by Ubuntu projects or do I need to look more directly at gnome itself?
<sladen> most at GNOME
<sladen> docdawning: for things that Ubuntu has a particular interest in (eg. next-gen stuff, standardising interfaces), try the Ayatana lot
<docdawning> sladen: Cool, any particular URL recommendations for prospective devs?
<docdawning> sladen: Well, thanks anyway I'm checking it out.
<sladen> docdawning: do you just want to contribute to $something, or have you something specifically in mind?
<docdawning> sladen: Fair question. I'm in search of a project. I suppose I'd prefer something that lets me continue to train up my Python skills, but I could go hard core low-level if necessary. I used to have a *thing for C, I guess I could resurrect that.
<docdawning> So at this point, I'm in search of a project to contribute to. I've been a Linux user for over a decade and yet not actually written any code for the community..
<RAOF> Everyone loves python; there's no particular reason that you'd be forced down to C.
<docdawning> It's time to give something back. I just haven't picked where to focus just yet. I think there's probably room for a fair number of little config file editing GUI things that could be made.. I'd like one for fstab, though I haven't checked if that's been done.
<docdawning> RAOF: I'm glad to hear that, then 'eveyone' stands a chance of being awesome..
<docdawning> ^^
<RAOF> :)
<docdawning> I suppose I'd like to learn more about pretty core stuff for gnome. I did some cocoa/OSX dev for a brief time and saw some really awesome concepts I'd like to see applied more for gnome
<sladen> docdawning: best way to explore/get up to speed might be to knock up some  pygtk  stuff
<RAOF> There's some low-hanging fruit on the config front; I'm thinking specifically of âadvancedâ screensaver settings (which gnome-screensaver supports, but the current capplet doesn't expose) and an advanced button on SystemâPreferencesâMonitors, to allow people to add modes to the config.
<docdawning> Mainly I'm thinking of how Apple arranged quicktime to plugin to just about everything.. So if you tweak out quicktime to not suck, suddently a ton of other things inherit that awesome
<sladen> docdawning: pick a small project (could be the /etc/fstab editor, but you're going to have parsing issues) and then work backwards to achieve that goal
<docdawning> Yeah, I could rip in to pygtk, but I think the best approach for me is to just jump in to doing something. Seems I'm very capable of wasting vast amounts of time 'learning' things while hardly doing anything..
<sladen> docdawning: and do it in pygtk and is lovely and requires 1/10th of the boilerplating  (eg.  b = gtk.Button("Click me") ; w = gtk.Window("Hellow World") ; w.add(b) ; w.showall()
<docdawning> RAOF: Low-hanging fruit sounds encouraging
<docdawning> sladen: Cool, I recently whipped up a garbage little UI for something using tkinter
<docdawning> I'm all for learning new things.. pygtk sounds fine - though any thoughts on how it compares with tkinter?
<docdawning> .. I mean, are you saying that tkinter requires a lot more attention than pygtk?
<pitti> YokoZar: dssi-vst> while it's clear that libwine-dev hasn't existed for ages, wine1.0-dev does not exist either
<YokoZar> pitti: just uploaded
<pitti> oh, it's in NEW
<YokoZar> pitti: The problem was that dssi-vst needs wine 1.0 to build and we didn't have it in the archive anymore.  Reuploads weren't working because wine1.2 was providing dummy wine packages that were higher version.  Making a separate wine1.0 package was the least bad thing.
<pitti> YokoZar: I'm still confused -- why do we have wine1.2, and wine1.0 is new?
<pitti> ah, so it _is_ an older version indeed
<docdawning> sladen & RAOF: Thx for the tips :) I'm really excited to help actually do some stuff for Ubuntu beyond reporting the odd bug
<pitti> YokoZar: we are reintroducing obsolete code just to make an universe package building?
<YokoZar> pitti: exactly, winelib's method of building changed a lot in the intermediate time
<pitti> is 1.0 even remotely supported still?
<sladen> docdawning: yes, pygtk is very easy, but it's a *way to learn the Gtk+ APIs*
<YokoZar> pitti: it's still current stable wine release, technically
<YokoZar> pitti: 1.2 should be out in like a month or two though
<YokoZar> pitti: also dssi-vst is in the ubuntustudio seed
<YokoZar> pitti: and I'm ~95% sure it can run with wine1.2 binary installed, just not build on it
<RAOF> sladen, docdawning: When I'm doing GTK# coding I quite often refer to the pygtk docs; I've found them to be generally very good.
<pitti> YokoZar: hm, so perhaps we should just have a wine1.0-dev without the runtime bits?
<YokoZar> pitti: the runtime bits are needed for building
<YokoZar> pitti: the only way to get wine1.0 at this point is to install it explicitly manually, as otherwise you'll be transitioned to wine1.2
 * pitti will put it into multiverse, since it recommends a multiverse package
<docdawning> RAOF: I believe I'm reviewing said documents now.. Exhibit A: http://www.pygtk.org/pygtk2tutorial/ch-GettingStarted.html
<pitti> YokoZar: hm, doesn't wine1.0 conflict to wine1.2, too? if on nothing else, then at least on /usr/bin/wine?
<YokoZar> pitti: yes, see new wine1.2 upload
<RAOF> docdawning: Yup.  That's it.
<YokoZar> (ScottK was handling this but he went to bed)
<pitti> YokoZar: ah, I see
<pitti> YokoZar: I'll move the source to multiverse too then, for consistency
<YokoZar> pitti: Should wine-gecko be in multiverse anyway?  It's just a local copy of a file wine downloads at runtime if it's not installed
<pitti> YokoZar: I don't know, you tell me :)
<pitti> you mean "in multiverse" as opposed to "not in Ubuntu at all"?
<YokoZar> pitti: no I mean as opposed to universe
<pitti> and it seems to me that wine1.0 isn't really meant to be a runtime package in the first place
<YokoZar> pitti: the file is gecko
<pitti> or is -gecko needed to build packages, too?
<YokoZar> no it's not
<pitti> YokoZar: the primary reason for multiverse is that wine recommends ttf-mscorefonts-installer, which is in multiverse
<YokoZar> Yeah that's another good reason
<YokoZar> wine-gecko got put in multiverse originally because I wasn't sure (its Windows version of gecko requires a build step on Windows so the package includes a binary file)
<pitti> that, too
<YokoZar> pitti: reminds me, we probably want to do a scrape of the archive finding similar inconsistencies (universe package recommending multiverse one)
<pitti> YokoZar: ok, thanks; sorry for the nitpicking, but at this point I rather make double-sure
<doko> geser: did you regenerate the rebuild-test table?
<YokoZar> pitti: Appreciated.  I've been up kinda late working on this for a few days ;)  -- I imagine you have too
<pitti> YokoZar: "pitti is now known as queue_review_bot" :-)
<YokoZar> Once all the wine packages go in then I need to make one last update to app-install-data to make it consistent
<pitti> YokoZar: i. e. when dsst-vst has built?
<pitti> wine should all be in now
<YokoZar> Ahh, so it has.  Ok then back to the salt mines
<pitti> lol
<geser> doko: your thanks should go to wgrant (for fixing the bug)
<doko> geser, wgrant: thanks :)
<doko> geser, wgrant: would it be possible to remove the packages with upload failures? it's a problem with the librarian, and we don't care about this for the rebuild test. then the results should be better comparable with lucas's test rebuild
<geser> doko: all "Failed to upload" or only those about the librarian problem?
<doko> geser: do you see any other failed to upload?
<geser> I didn't check
<doko> then all
<ogra> soren, UbuntuÃ¸ ? the new danish remix ?
<soren> ogra: It will have to be. Otherwise, I'd have to admit to having mistyped.
<ogra> lol
<soren> And I never mistpye.
<ogra> indeed
<dpm> hey pitti, good morning. A question for you:
<dpm> pitti, for the final language packs we were planning to use the export from the 23rd, but due to a mistake we ended up using a previous one and thus we're not including the latest work from translators.
<dpm> pitti, there is no possibility to update the ISOs now, so we'd like to concentrate on releasing those language packs asap post-release.
<pitti> dpm: then I suggest we'll do a -proposed one about a week after release?
<pitti> dpm: right
<dpm> pitti, there are a couple of bugs that will need fixing, but we'll worry about them in yet another language pack upload post-release. For now, though, I find it important to include the latest translation work in the export that we already have
<dpm> pitti, Arne will build the language packs from the export on the 23rd on the PPA, and we'd like to ask you what you think about copying them directly to -updates instead of going the usual -proposed -> updates way, since those were the ones that were going to be on the final ISOs anyway.
<dpm> ArneGoetje, ^
<pitti> dpm: I'd rather have them uploaded to -proposed directly then
<pitti> so that we don't have to build them twice
<dpm> pitti, right, thanks. ArneGoetje, could you take care of that?
<dpm> and coordinate with Martin?
<gartral> i know 10.04 is in RC, but here's an issue i feel needs too be ointed out: when a machine has multiple hardwired interfaces, if both are connected to the same end point networking will fail.. falling into some kind of loop. no traffic gets in or out extreme cases have spilled over to the loopback interface, hanging the system.
<ogra> gartral, what do you mean by "if both are connected to the same end point" ?
<gartral> ogra: two interfaces, two cables, two ports of same router = dead network
<gartral> my system has also hung and froze a few times when i had a cable in each interface of my mobo
<ogra> sounds weird to me to connect both NICs to the same router
<wgrant> doko: You could retry them.. but I guess I can just exclude the status.
<gartral> ogra: it knocks my ping down in most games, and it does load websites faster. so i would like to have that back
 * wgrant excludes the status.
<doko> wgrant: thanks, retrying would be a manual thing for now ...
<wgrant> Rerunning.
<wgrant> doko: Looks better now.
<doko> wgrant: not sure if you did read that in the backlog: one more thing: looking at the kdebindings build failure. the corresponding build in lucid was made *after* the test build (given back). maybe these could be colored light red or marked in some way.  but it looks good now
<ScottK> pitti: Would you please toss "sync 570096 -S unstable" into mass-sync.  ivoks has details if needed (I'm going back to bed).
<pitti> ScottK: ok
<ScottK> pitti: Thanks.
<ivoks> please, please :)
<ivoks> i have to rebuild whole stack :/
<pitti> ScottK: (in the wifi/network age, what made you leave it in the first place? :-) )
<pitti> s/network/laptop/
<ScottK> pitti: Getting the first wave of kids off to school.
<pitti> ah :)
<ScottK> They're off, so I'm going to crash for a while.
<pitti> [done]
<gartral> pitti: cant run an i7 860 in a laptop at 3.1 ghz, with 12 gb RAM and 3 tb hdd.. or if you can.. it would have cost a $%^&load more
<pitti> gartral: ??
<gartral> pitti: sory, misread the "why leave" question
<pitti> gartral: ah, heh :)
<pitti> . o O { is there actually so much data in the universe to fill a 3 TB disk? :-P }
<gartral> i want a computer wit enough hdd space to store all the internets >.>
<unggnu> hi all
<unggnu> Is there a reason why sun-java6 doesn't gets updated in multiverse? I mean it is r15 and it should be r20 I suppose.
<cjwatson> it's updated in partner instead
<unggnu> ah ok, thx
<unggnu> But it isn't shipped with Lucid anymore?
<pitti> right
<unggnu> Because openjdk and icedtea doesn't seem to work for some sites
<cjwatson> it's been removed from multiverse
<pitti> unggnu: we have openjdk as supported option
<cjwatson>  sun-java6 | 6.20dlj-1ubuntu3 | lucid/partner | source
<unggnu> while sun-java6-plugin works fine with them
<unggnu> Hm, I am using Karmic 9.10 and have the partner repository enabled but I don't get a Java update. The Adobe Reader update works fine though.
<cjwatson> it's only in partner for lucid.
<unggnu> btw. the site is map24.com (java is needed for the interactive mode)
<cjwatson> at this point I suspect 9.10 may just not get that update.
<unggnu> cjwatson, but this is a security issue :/
<cjwatson> then I assume there is a security bug filed
<cjwatson> "doesn't work for some sites" is not in itself a security issue
<unggnu> cjwatson, no, I mean using the sun java r15 in Karmic
<unggnu> I know that it is multiverse
<pitti> unggnu: the latest sun-java is in karmic-proposed, eagerly awaiting feedback :)
<unggnu> pitti, ok, thx :)
<pitti> in bug 566353
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 566353 in sun-java6 "sun-java6 6u20 update available (including security updates)" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/566353
<cjwatson> oh yes, so it is
<cjwatson>  sun-java6 | 6.20dlj-0ubuntu1.9.10 | karmic-proposed/multiverse | source
<unggnu> Btw. is it worth a bug report if the partner repository doesn't get updated after an upgrade to Lucid? I still had the karmic distribution tag.
<Riddell> bryceh: ever seen this before? http://people.canonical.com/~jriddell/tmp/broken-x.png
<gartral> Riddell: change your font
<ion> KDE probably has a checkbox for that in the sixteenth tab of some configuration window. :-P
<gartral> ion: lol, good one
<ogra> Riddell, learn chinorussian :)
<pitti> Riddell: I think I saw it at some point, but I can't remember the circumstances any more; what triggered it for you?
<pitti> could have been a suspend/resume bug
<Riddell> pitti: I've been doing some login/out testing, otherwise nothing unusual
<slangasek> asac: you've uploaded the fix for 528887 only to ppa, not to the unapproved queue? (the bug is still targeted to 10.04)
<asac> slangasek: right. didnt know you were awake. wanted to get a QA confirm that this thing fixes all/doesnt break anything before letting it in.
<ogra> slangasek, i'm just trying to test the fix
<ogra> dist-upgrade isnt very fast on the beagle though :)
<slangasek> asac: I'm in London ;)
<asac> slangasek: oh right ;)
<asac> let me see if it has built
<ogra> it has
<gartral> how do i get USB to throw more power.. i have a phone that isnt charging off usb in ubuntu but charges fine in windows
<asac> let me see if a second person is avail for testing
<ogra> plars should get up soonish
<slangasek> asac: and have already started first ISO spins - so if we're trying to get this fix in on netbook for final, needs to be in the queue ASAP
<asac> slangasek: any deadline you want to give?
<asac> like 30 minutes 1h
<asac> ?
<asac> 2h?
<asac> ;)
<ogra> 4h ?
<ogra> :)
<slangasek> asac: meh, 30 minutes :)
<asac> lol
<slangasek> asac: get it in the queue so I can review in parallel
<slangasek> I'll wait for QA validation before accepting
<asac> slangasek: ah ok ... i can upload directly then
<asac> uploaded
<slangasek> mvo: have you seen bug #569941? any insight?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 569941 in update-manager "apport enabled after a distribution upgrade from Karmic to Lucid" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/569941
<unggnu> Is it more likely that the plugin has the bug or the runtime environment if a Java applet in Firefox makes problem with icedtea6-plugin but not with sun-java6-plugin?
<whomee> how do i activate the Date::Manip module in perl? need it for a program im configuring
<pitti> whomee: this is a question for #ubuntu
<pitti> whomee: (install libdate-manip-perl)
<whomee> ok sorry then :) and thanks
<mvo> slangasek: looking
<ogra> asac, slangasek, bug 568630 and bug 528887 both seems to be fixed with asac's PPA package
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 568630 in netbook-launcher-efl "Default path is sometimes in an icon directory" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/568630
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 528887 in netbook-launcher-efl "maximus does not give default focus to newly started apps in combination with efl launcher" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/528887
<asac> ogra: nice
<asac> ogra: can you confirm your testing in the bug?
<ogra> done already :)
<asac> its strange though that the icon directory bug is fixed by the gdk window timestamps ;)
<ogra> yeah
<ogra> though we always suspected it was a race
<ogra> timestamps might just solve that along
<asac> yes, but why does the launcher react on a focus race ;)
<slangasek> asac, ogra: thanks, netbook-launcher-efl accepted
<ogra> great, thanks :)
<asac> cool
<asac> oh ... the error message bug wasnt confirmed. (ogra mentioned two bugs was confusing)
<ogra> if we now could drop evo from the images (and loos 100MB) it would be perfect
<ogra> asac, i cant test that one
<ogra> no free sockets on my USB hub
<sebner> slangasek: do you happen to know who is a contact person for the canonical partner repo?
<xnox> Looking ahead - how about compress debs using xz in Maverick?
<cjwatson> xnox: selectively
<cjwatson> support in dpkg is already upstream
<cjwatson> but we won't do it by default any more than we do lzma by default now
<xnox> cjwatson, why not?
<cjwatson> issues on less capable machines
<cjwatson> don't really want to discuss it now, too busy with lucid
<xnox> cause for my tiny package the -dbg package went from 7MiB to 1.5MiB
<xnox> kk
<cjwatson> so use it for your tiny package then
<cjwatson> you don't need the default changed
<xnox> cjwatson, so archive is not rejecting those?
<cjwatson> you can use lzma
<cjwatson> xz isn't supported yet
<xnox> yeah i know that xz is only in debian right now cause we are frozen.
<cjwatson> Launchpad will need some simple work in order to support xz
<slangasek> sebner: hum, regarding what exactly?  it's administered by the same ubuntu-archive team
<xnox> cause lintian complains saying they will be rejected. I didn't know ubuntu autobuilds are fine with xz tarballs on ubuntu
<cjwatson> well, they aren't right now
<sebner> slangasek: nah, regarding asking for new apps/company offerings etc
<cjwatson> sebner: http://www.ubuntu.com/partners/ISV
<sebner> cjwatson: Yeah, I'm more asking for a name/irc nick
<cjwatson> sebner: I don't know the correct contact, and given that this involves dealing with corporate stuff I suspect that going through the contact form on the website may have better results anyway
<sebner> cjwatson: ic, thx
<plars> asac, slangasek: just updated bug #528887 - looks pretty good from here
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 528887 in launch-lite-proj "maximus does not give default focus to newly started apps in combination with efl launcher" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/528887
<slangasek> plars: cheers - good answer, since it's already accepted ;)
<plars> slangasek: darn, if I had realized that I would have had some fun with it first :)
<asac> plars: could you verify the error message UUID problem too? you seem to have a way to reproduce
<plars> asac: updated bug... fixed... maybe? I'm kinda thinking that it looks like it's just a better phrased error message now
<ArneGoetje> dpm: yep
<dpm> thanks ArneGoetje :)
<alkisg> statd isn't started for me by default, is this a problem in the statd upstart job?
<alkisg> grep start /etc/init/statd.conf: start on (started portmap or mounting TYPE=nfs)
<alkisg> status portmap: portmap start/running, process 715
<alkisg> status statd: statd stop/waiting
<alkisg> If I stop and restart portmap, then statd also gets started. But it doesn't start on boot, even though portmap does.
<maxiepax> anyone know what files gnome-system-monitor (used in ubuntu-9.10) uses to get f.ex. cpu load information from?
<maxiepax> im looking for a file/application to use in a script that simply outputs the cpu utilization to determine what machines are used and not.
<maxiepax> only ones i can find are either ncurses based or gd based.
<maxiepax>  /proc/avgload spits out the usual 1 5 15m load avg, however asfar as my research leads me, this is the waittime, not really the cpu utilized.
<pitti> maxiepax: top -b?
<maxiepax> i trid top -b -n 1 | sed -ne '/Cpu/ s/.* \([0-9]*\.[0-9]*\)%us.* \([0-9]*\.[0-9]*\)%sy.*/User: \1%, System: \2%/p'
<maxiepax> this gives me f.ex. User: 5.4%, System: 1.4%
<maxiepax> should i assume this is from 1 core, or out of a total of 400% (4 cores) ?
<pitti> maxiepax: max is always 100%
<pitti> maxiepax: i. e. with 4 cores, one maxed-out core is 25%
<maxiepax> well, in "uptime" 1.0 seems like 1.0 = 1 core.
<pitti> as you just said yourself, numbers in uptime have got _nothing_ to do with CPU cores
<maxiepax> okey, thanks :) so if i understood you correct, teh above top -b -n 1 i did, would represent 5.4% out of 100% summed up cores.
<pitti> maxiepax: more like 7.0 (user +sys), but yes
<maxiepax> pitti: Thanks allot!
<pitti> maxiepax: I'm not aware of a central /proc/loadavg like file (I could be wrong, of couse)
<pitti> maxiepax: I believe top just looks at proc/*/stat and sums up
<maxiepax> yeah =/ linux has tons of different files (alot in /proc) that show different values, however it seems none are really ment for this.
<maxiepax> and most webpages i read say thats its "impossible" to measure the load on a cpu, since the only true way to measure is by measuring the waiting que for the cpu once its reached its maximum.
<pitti> sure, either a process has the (full) CPU power, or none has
<pitti> never does a process use only "half" a CPU at a time
<maxiepax> HT :)
<maxiepax> but, yes i agree.
<pitti> so I guess top measures the number of spent cycles per process and divides by available cycles
<pitti> maxiepax: HT> cheating :)
<pitti> maxiepax: the former is in e. g. getrusage(), so I suppose it's somewhere in /proc/pid as well
<pitti> or clock_gettime (CLOCK_PROCESS_CPUTIME_ID)
<maxiepax> im guessing what that does it create a cycle and measure how long it took for it to be processed?
<pitti> maxiepax: as I said, I think it adds up the CPU time for all processes and divides by number of available cycles (for each slice)
<pitti> but at this point I suggest to RTFS :)
<maxiepax> yeah :) i think my boss will be sattisfied with this though, just need something simple to see if a machine is used or not ( found some machines that have been idle for 16 months )
<lamont> wtf does xchat suddenly decide that I must want to be cutting text (like I have button 1 down, only I don't) and mouse input elsewhere gets totally ignored...
<lamont> totally calling that a lucid regression
<maco> lamont: not just xchat
<lamont> oh, well, that'd be about the only gui I use...
<maco> or at least, im having issues with mouse focus in kubuntu as well
<maco> today i could use the mouse on my channel list but not the nick list in quassel
<maco> and couldnt click on mails in kmail
<maco> logging out and back in tends to resolve it. this is only about the 3rd time its happened to me in 3 months
<ogra_cmpc> lamont, i had the same when my system ran out of ram due to the gem objects bug
<ogra_cmpc> pretty reliable right before i hit OOM
<lamont> ogra: fresh boot, totally diff machine
<ogra_cmpc> strange
<tkamppeter> pitti, hi
<joaopinto> anyone else having issues with the mouse getting random buttons release events without an associated physical action ?
<\sh> hmm..does anyone know where to find python-restkit in our archives?
<\sh> it'smissing for python-couchdbkit somehow
<\sh> bts #511996 how nice...anyjson bug fixed in debian, but python-restkit is not available
<pitti> tkamppeter: hello
<\sh> pitti: do you think it's ok to file a removal request for python-couchdbkit for lucid so late in the cycle? there are two deps missing, one not mentioned in the version in our archives, and one dep is not available not even in debian :(
<pitti> \sh: sure, it has zero rdepends
<pitti> \sh: but it doesn't have any special dependencies, what do you mean?
<pitti> Depends: python (>= 2.5), python-support (>= 0.90.0)
<\sh> pitti, which is wrong
<\sh> pitti: lp bug #511996
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 511996 in python-couchdbkit "missing dependency" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/511996
<\sh> pitti, just added debians bug report to it..
<\sh> pitti, it doesn't work without python-anyjson and python-restkit...the last package is not even in debian...only as fragment of cached google search
<pitti> \sh: sure, please file a removal request then, I'll do it right away
<\sh> pitti: ok...I'll use the very same bug for now...or should I file another one?
<pitti> \sh: those were added in the current unstable version
<pitti> \sh: using that one will do
<tkamppeter> pitti, about bug 564633, can one make a freeze exception? This is really annoying that s-c-p always looks for drivers on the internet before looking locally. I have a patch and it works.
<\sh> pitti: yes, because they were completly missing ;) and http://packages.debian.org/sid/python-restkit <- nothing
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 564633 in system-config-printer "system-config-printer: make driver installation optional" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/564633
<pitti> tkamppeter: it can become an SRU
<pitti> tkamppeter: (final images are being built already)
<tkamppeter> pitti, can one make it am SRU which gets available before Lucid+1 opens?
<pitti> tkamppeter: sure, we do that after every release
<pitti> tkamppeter: in fact, you can upload it right now
<pitti> tkamppeter: it just won't be processed until after the final release, but at least you can get it off your plate :)
<tkamppeter> already to lucid-proposed?
<pitti> yes
<pitti> \sh: *flush*
<tkamppeter> pitti, then I will upload s-c-p, ghostscript, and HPLIP soon, as they have some annoying problems. s-c-p will come first as I have the patch, for ghostscript I am still collecting patches (upstrream is very active in PDF interpreter problems currently).
<pitti> tkamppeter: thank you
<\sh> pitti: bug #511996 updated pls go ahead ;)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 511996 in python-couchdbkit "missing dependency" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/511996
<pitti> \sh: oh, I just closed it :)
<\sh> pitti, ah ok then ;)
<\sh> pitti, thx a lot :)
<pitti> danke Dir!
<jarnos> I wonder, if the writer of release notes for Ubuntu could co-operate with his/her colleague for Xubuntu?
<cjwatson> jarnos: it should probably be the other way round, since we do the common stuff, and historically we have cooperated anyway ...  Do you have specifics?
<jarnos> cjohnston: What do you mean by the specifics? Release notes for Beta2 are here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Xubuntu/LucidLynx/Beta2
<cjwatson> "cjwatson" not "cjohnston"
<jarnos> cjwatson: sorry
<cjwatson> I mean, what are specific examples on which the Xubuntu folks tried to cooperate and didn't get results?
<jarnos> cjohnston: sorry
<jarnos> cjwatson: No, I don't have. Currently they are looking for a volunteer to write the release notes for the final release. And I just told I volunteer.
<cjwatson> anyone doing release stuff for derivatives should coordinate with #ubuntu-release
<jarnos> cjwatson: ok, I'll continue there.
<cjohnston> i thought i was important for a minute
<tkamppeter> pitti, s-c-p is uploaded now.
<gangil>  Hi , can can anyone help me how can I read the blocks on which the file is stored ? I know the inode number from the stat command , but how can I use it to find the block(s) on which the file is located and read the same ? I am using UBuntu 9.10 , I tried finding inode.h , dirnode.h , but couldnt find them , can anyone Please Help :-/
<Keybuk> gangil: you need to use the FIEMAP ioctl
<Keybuk> http://lwn.net/Articles/297696/  is old, but relatively correct
<gangil> thanks Keybuk :) , reading it
<Keybuk> gangil: if you need an example, just "apt-get source ureadahead"
<ccheney> cyphermox: ping
<kirkland> Keybuk: i have a strange issue where it appears that some of my init scripts and upstart jobs are not being run
<Keybuk> kirkland: probably "lo" not coming up
<kirkland> Keybuk: at least the following: /etc/init.d/nfs-kernel-server, /etc/init.d/screen-cleanup, /etc/init/qemu-kvm.conf
<Keybuk> or something in /e/n/i that overrides the /etc/network/if-up.d/upstart script from being run
<kirkland> Keybuk: okay, how can I determine if that's the case?
<Keybuk> do only some init scripts not get run, or all not get run?
<kirkland> Keybuk: well, the system is functional (and gdm is up, etc)
<Keybuk> that isn't answering the question
<kirkland> Keybuk: but as I try to use stuff (like kvm, screen, nfs), i see that it just doesn't look like those inits happened
<kirkland> Keybuk: network/interfaces: http://pastebin.com/XkK4Q4vA
<Keybuk> probably not that bug then
<kirkland> Keybuk: bridged networking is "non-standard", perhaps, but hopefully not precluding init, huh?
<Keybuk> no idea
<kirkland> Keybuk: what can i do to help troubleshoot this along with you?
<asavar> Hi, does fedora's tuned daemon make any sense in ubuntu, and if yes, will be it included in repos someway? or ubuntu has similar tool? (I'm not talking about gnome-power-manager or kde's one which included by both systems). They says that it is very good thing but I can't find it in repos (and it's very hard to google it due very common word, btw)
<Keybuk> kirkland: boot with --verbose and look at /var/log/boot.log and whichever of syslog/messages init messages end up with
<kirkland> Keybuk: --verbose goes on the kernel cmdline?
<Keybuk> kirkland: yes
<kirkland> Keybuk: hmm, booted with --verbose, and everything worked this time :-/
<kirkland> Keybuk: trying a few more times
<chrisccoulson> slangasek - i figured out what was wrong with my nvidia desktop in the end (Xorg starting on vt6)
<chrisccoulson> for some reason, i have grub booting with console=tty6 ;)
<chrisccoulson> not sure why though
<shtylman> I are getting exit status 5 for ureadahead, and googling around doesn't reveal anything... the box we have won't boot cause of this
<Keybuk> shtylman: ureadahead won't cause your machine to not boot
<shtylman> Keybuk: that was my thinking as well
<Keybuk> however whatever is causing ureadahead to exit with status 5 could also be causing the machine to not boot
<shtylman> any particular kernel flags we can boot with to try and flush out the problem?
<Keybuk> --verbose is always a good start
<shtylman> k
<Keybuk> status 5 is "error while tracing" fwiw
<Keybuk> most common reason is that stat(/) doesn't translate to a block device
<Keybuk> there should be other messages in the boot log
<shtylman> interesting... ok... we will try with --verbose and see if it talks back to us :)
<ccheney> shtylman: bug 508441 seems to still occur according to a user today?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 508441 in openoffice.org "soffice.bin crashed with SIGSEGV in QPixmap::handle()" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/508441
<hyperair> crimsun: what do you mean "ck check"?
<shtylman> ccheney: are you serious... sigh
<shtylman> maybe packages aren't updated all the way...
<shtylman> I dunno... this is tragic
<ccheney> shtylman: perhaps the changes didn't make it into ooo-build-3-2 ?
<ccheney> shtylman: our ooo-build is fairly recent certainly since feb anyway but wasn't pulled from head
<shtylman> ccheney: no.. they most certainly have... I haven't touched OO for a long time
<ccheney> shtylman: hmm :-\
<shtylman> and these fixes were in a long time ago
<ccheney> shtylman: yea
<shtylman> im tempted to say that this may be something else
<shtylman> and nessesarily the extensions
<ccheney> anyone know of an easy way to graph library interdependency from a given set of libraries?
<ccheney> i'm trying to examine all the OOo libraries to see if there is a way to more efficiently package them
<Damascene> hello, is there a tool to show up after startup and ask the user if he want to install something that was not installed?
<ccheney> i did an upgrade just now from karmic and noticed it appears to be removing OOo hyphenation and thesaurus bits during the upgrade process, is that intended or is it not considered a safe time to upgrade causing it?
<ccheney> or maybe caused by a difference in how language support is done now?
<ccheney> running language support after upgrade asks to reinstall them again so maybe its intended
<shtylman> Keybuk: http://paste.ubuntu.com/422946/
<shtylman> that is the dmesg log I pulled from the box
<shtylman> the last part about: [drm:radeon_i2c_sw_put_byte] *ERROR* i2c 0x08 0x30 write failed
<shtylman> is interesting
<shtylman> cause we think the box has booted, but that the vid card doesn't let us see anything
<shtylman> this is an install of ubuntu server btw
<MTecknology> If I have initramfs-tools installed, does it really do anything to the boot process or is it mostly there for use by initrd?
<shtylman> is there a kernel flag which will disable the radeondrmfb ?
<shtylman> Keybuk: ahh ... it appears to be very similar to this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/546743 which has been fixed
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 546743 in linux "Blank screen at first boot with ATI ES1000 and 10.04 server" [High,Fix released]
<shtylman> so we will try a newer cd
<persia> plars: Hey.  I've been looking at bug #569141 and have a solution that works except in the su -c case.  Have you made any further progress with it?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 569141 in phoronix-test-suite "installing tests fails" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/569141
<Caesar> elmo: yt?
<plars> persia: I didn't get a chance over the weekend to test it with kdesudo, but the debdiff I proposed works with sudo at least for certain, not sure if kdesudo would be different, but michael seemed to think so
<Besogon> hello. I'm reading ubuntu policy and trying undestand how contol file should be. Should every package, which has not got Debian's similar package, has field "ubuntu" in it name
<persia> plars: I could replicate the issue with gksudo as well.  Adding "--" makes it go away.
<persia> Besogon: No, but it's best that it has it in the revision to differentiate.
<persia> plars: The problem is with the degenerate case where none of kdesudo, gksudo, or sudo are available.
<Besogon> ok. then next question. I'm not in MOTU group and trying to make little package (universe package). You advise include "ubuntu" field name of  the package. Then What should be in Maintainer field of control file?
<Besogon> http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/ubuntu-policy/policy.html/ch-binary.html
<Besogon> Paragraph 3.3 The maintainer of a package
<persia> Besogon: My advice was to include "ubuntu" in the revision in the version of the package, not the name.
<persia> Besogon: The maintainer is the folks that are going to maintain it.  Initially, that's probably you.  If you're looking to have it maintained by an Ubuntu team, you could put the email address of the team there, but you'd want to confirm the team is maintaining it.
<plars> persia: I know it's ugly, but what about wrapping it with bash -c? did that work for the su -c case?
<persia> plars: Nope.
<persia> plars: For local test, try `su -c bash -c aptitude -y install hello` or similar.
<plars> persia: that doesn't work, but su -c bash -c "aptitude -y install hello" does
<persia> I thought the point was to drop the quotes.
<persia> quotes works without the bash as well.
<Besogon> persia, It shouldn't be maintained by ubuntu team. That is not good software (just a little program on fortran for our students). may be I undestand you. the package will be named "tmmfortran1.0-0ubuntu.deb" Will it correct?
<persia> Besogon: No.  If you're not expecting the software to be maintained in Ubuntu, I'll recommend visiting #ubuntu-packaging, and asking questions there: you're close, but I think there are some basic things that you haven't asked yet.
<Besogon> thanks for link
<jibel> cjwatson, hi, the zero-length problem is back with latest dpkg in lucid
<jibel> cjwatson, but this time only maintainer scripts are affected.
<YokoZar> pitti: now that we have wine1.0 and wine1.2 packages, we need to remove wine source package -- did you do that?
<bdrung> kirkland: http://people.canonical.com/~kirkland/Museum/4.10_warty.img.bz2 does not exist
<kirkland> bdrung: yeah, i know, sorry .... that machine ran out of disk space and had to be deleted :-(
<kirkland> elmo: any chance of re-hosting those "museum" VMs somewhere?
<kirkland> elmo: per bdrung's msg ^
<Wazzzaaa> For reporting a bug I want to test an upstream kernel from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/MainlineBuilds  But I don't know which I need to download. uname -a gives me: 2.6.31-20 any ideas?
<Wazzzaaa> no tips?
<MTecknology> Wazzzaaa: no patience?
<Wazzzaaa> hehe, ok i shall wait.
<MTecknology> Wazzzaaa: lotta smart and busy folks in here, I'm only busy :P
<slangasek> chrisccoulson: hah, ouch
<chrisccoulson> slangasek - it's fixed and working now :)
<chrisccoulson> i don't know why i configured grub like that in the past though ;)
<joaopinto> james_w, bug 381961 is not fixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 381961 in mod-wsgi "libapache2-mod-wsgi should have a dependency on libpython2.6" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/381961
<_romeo_> hello guys
<ajmitch> joaopinto: it's in universe, should be possible to get a fix in still
<joaopinto> ok, since the bug was set to fix released I assume there is a patch somewhere already :)
<ajmitch> package hasn't been touched since an autosync in march
<LinuxGuy2009> Hello I just started a launchpad project and was wondering if Im able to upload my prject to it and how I would do that?
<LinuxGuy2009> https://launchpad.net/multibootu
<joaopinto> LinuxGuy2009, #launchpad is the proper channel for LP related questions
<LinuxGuy2009> Oh ok cool thank you
<JFo> anyone know where pre-proposed is? Apparently we are building the kernel tip there daily and i can't seem to find it
<ccheney> JFo: a ppa maybe?
<JFo> I was thinking that
<JFo> just not sure where
 * JFo keeps looking
<ccheney> JFo: maybe ask in #ubuntu-kernel
<JFo> ccheney, I think I have found it
<JFo> thanks though
<ccheney> JFo: https://launchpad.net/~kernel-ppa/+archive ?
<JFo> no, that is the normal PPA
<JFo> I have it now, thank you
<ccheney> JFo: oh ok
<JFo> i was thinking it was a Lucid distro PPA
<JFo> but it is a kernel one
<Keybuk> anibal: hey
<anibal> hey scott
<Keybuk> give me a few minutes, hotel are just setting up international calling for me
<anibal> ok
<xnox> who is ubuntubama?
<xnox> it got "attacked" by it on irc
<persia> xnox: Asking in #ubuntu-irc or #ubuntu-ops may be more useful.
<psusi> jdong, what do the colors mean in that disk map you made from the ureadahead pack?
<jdong> psusi: each color represents a different file on-disk
<psusi> ahh
<jdong> psusi: the picture is "deceptive" in that it only graphs from min(blocks_mentioned) to max(blocks_mentioned)
<jdong> not the "entire disk"
<psusi> jdong, wanna try defragging? ;)
<jdong> psusi: but it was pretty enough to put in a slide, which was my goal :)
<jdong> psusi: hahaha you got code for that?
<jdong> psusi: I can't try it NOW, but sometime this week, sure
<psusi> yea... it still can't alter the height of an extent tree but other than that....
<jdong> ok cool
#ubuntu-devel 2010-04-27
<Gavin__> Good morning!
<psusi> rofl
<psusi> good change log Keybuk, "Some idiot thought it'd be a good idea if device mapper didn't respond to "add" events, like those during boot.  Take their change out back and shoot it in the head."
<Keybuk> at least someone thought it was funny ;-)
<Laibsch> ArneGoetje: I'm glad to hear that Japan is perceived as an important market to Canonical.  I'm just not sure that replacing a font with one that looks worse is a good choice.
<Laibsch> ArneGoetje:   I'll talk to Hideki this week since I believe he may be able to give me some insight.  If you have any further comments, I'd love to hear them as well.
<persia> Laibsch: The font selection was done in communication and coordination with the Japanese team, on the basis that it was a better font for daily use.
<Laibsch> I assume you're a part of that team?  Who else, if I may ask.
<Laibsch> As I said initially (been a few days now), the font looks *much* worse here.
<Laibsch> But I wonder if that isn't some config problem
<Laibsch> Right now, I'm just trying to understand
<persia> Laibsch: https://launchpad.net/~japaneseteam
<Laibsch> persia: how does the font look for you?
<Laibsch> comparable?
<Laibsch> vl-pgothic (old standard) vs. the new IPA derived font
<persia> Laibsch: Different, but neither is more or less readable to me.
<Laibsch> I see
<Laibsch> the new one is much thinner for me
<persia> The new font seems to have more delicate strokes, which is nice for low-dpi situations.
<Laibsch> it's certainly readablle
<kees> pitti: we've written a lot of tests.  ;)
<YokoZar> dssi-vst needs a simple rebuild after my new wine1.0 package goes in (configuration issue)
<persia> YokoZar: Does it need a real rebuild, or just a retry?  Seems to be FTBFS on arches where it could work.
<RoAkSoAx> could I still be able to file a FFe?
<RoAkSoAx> to get new upstream of TestDrive into lucid?
<persia> YokoZar: If just a retry, then there's a handy button on launchpad that you can click.
<YokoZar> persia: a retry
<YokoZar> persia: Can anyone click that button?
<TheMuso> YokoZar: You should be able to.
<YokoZar> TheMuso: I'd used the button for my PPAs before, but for some reason I was expecting the real archive version of the button to only be available to archive admins
<persia> YokoZar: Anyone with upload rights to the relevant package, yes.
<YokoZar> Proper versioning for programs without version numbers is 0.0-YYYYMMDD yes?
<Keybuk> YokoZar: I tend to prefer 0~YYYYMMDD-n
 * persia doesn't like 0~ because Soyuz gets confused sometimes
<YokoZar> Keybuk: I guess that works better if they release a version "0" or 0.0 for some reason
<Keybuk> persia: why would Soyuz get confused?
<YokoZar> because it's less than 0?
<persia> Keybuk: Dunno, and I haven't encountered it since intrepid.  At that point I had some sync & upload failures I worked around with 0.0.0+...
 * persia happily hasn't encountered the situation since
<Keybuk> actually
<Keybuk> I'd probably just use YYYYMMDD if there was no version
<Keybuk> you can always just add an epoch later
<persia> Well, except that gets annoying if Debian later packages 0.2 without an epoch.
<Keybuk> Debian Schmebian
<psusi> anyone know how to get gdb to quite being a retard and kill all inferior processes?  kill just kills the currently selected thread
<psusi> quit even, not quite
<jdong> kirkland: hey congrats on manpages.ubuntu.com fixing the "terminates output on bad character" bug :)
<jdong> kirkland: I submitted a particularly ironic snprintf(3) manpage to TheDailyWTF a few weeks ago :) The manpage abruptly ended at "followed by the null byte, [EOF]"
<kirkland> jdong: i saw that :-)
<jdong> hehe :)
<kirkland> jdong: i mean, i saw your pointer
<kirkland> jdong: i think i fixed that bug
<kirkland> jdong: can you check?
<jdong> yeah
<jdong> http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/lucid/en/man3/snprintf.3posix.html
<jdong> it looks good now
<jdong> (the old version was much more amusing though!)
<kirkland> jdong: yeah :-)
<kirkland> jdong: still has some unprintable chars
<jdong> yeah, whatever that special <?> character is before the quotes.
<jdong> yup
<kirkland> ï¿½
<jdong> yeah they are littered throughout that manpage
<kirkland> jdong: probably a w3m bug
<jdong> ah, it goes through w3m?
<kirkland> jdong: hmm, it's just a paren (
<jdong> other parens seem to do fine
<kirkland> jdong: weird
<kirkland> jdong: file a bug on it, if you like, and i'll have a deeper look some time
<jdong> kirkland: where do bugs go?
<kirkland> jdong: launchpad.net/ubuntu-manpage-repository
<jdong> ok, will do :)
<jdong> and ooooh OS X Terminal.app linkifies that http-less URL
<jdong> does gnome-terminal do that too?
<ajmitch> sadly not
<jdong> awww
<ajmitch> at least not on this jaunty desktop :)
<jdong> *tosses around a Google-Apple conspiracy theory to break Linux*
<temugen> no, but special rxvt regexing can
 * ajmitch should probably upgrade at some point
<jdong> temugen: you mean special/regexing.that'll also match that?
<jdong> ;-)
<temugen>  .net/.com/blah blah
<jdong> ah, one of those enormous regexes
<temugen> How else does OS X do it?
<jdong> like the one for valid emails.
<temugen> I assume they use magic
<jdong> temugen: natural language parsing?
<jdong> temugen: same way they pick dates and telephone numbers and addresses out of emails.
<jdong> (I'd assume)
<jdong> I HOPE with their 200 billion USD marketcap or whatnot they're not using a switch/case of regexes ;-)
<ajmitch> you hope for a lot
<jdong> ajmitch: hey one can be an optimist, right? ;-)
<ajmitch> like with running experimental crack? sure... :)
<persia> ajmitch: Do remember your counterparty in this conversation :)
<ajmitch> persia: my point
<revcompgeek> I am unable to get graphics acceleration with my Radeon 9200 card, and I used to be able to
<revcompgeek> running "compiz --replace" tells me that it detected a software rasterizer, but i don't know how to make it use the graphics card
<boringwall> Right now I'm currently messing around with mprotect. I'm having it generate SIGSEGVs when I try to read/write into protected memory. I've got a handler for the SIGSEGVs and am wondering how its possible to tell if when it is invoked whether I am trying to request a read or write
<pitti> Good moring
<ajmitch> morning pitti
<pitti> YokoZar: wine removal> no, didn't know I was supposed to; removed now
<YokoZar> pitti: Cool, thanks.
<RAOF> Um, has lvm2 broken boot for anyone else?
<pitti> kees: there's a 115 MB mysql database and a 100 MB "qatest.tar.bz" in libvirt (presumably a packed image?)
<pitti> hello ajmitch
<pitti> RAOF: uh, how?
<RAOF> Well, I'm not sure that it's the recent lvm2 upgrade, but that's my first guess.
<RAOF> As in: enter the passphrase for your dm_crypt partition, get dumped to a recovery shell with the helpful message âCONTROL-D will teminate his shell and reboot the systemâ
<RAOF> And I know there was a recent lvm2 changeâ¦
<RAOF> I'm installing the previous version of lvm2 to see if that is in fact the problem.
<RAOF> Looks like it was actually mountall.
<pitti> RAOF: moutnall and plymouth were also updated yesterday
<wgrant> RAOF: So I don't want to upgrade mountall and reboot if I use LUKS filesystems?
<RAOF> Wellâ¦ downgrading to mountall 2.13 gets me a mostly-working boot, it seems.
<RAOF> By âmostly workingâ I mean that a recovery shell gets started, but the boot continues & I'm able to log in.
<RAOF> wgrant: You know how to bring up a working system by hand, right?  You should be fine! :)
<wgrant> RAOF: Heh, I haven't had to do it in the new world yet.
<RAOF> The trick is âservice start dbusâ - after that, everything's mostly up :)
<slangasek> RAOF: bug #570289?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570289 in plymouth "mountall assertion failure breaks boot process" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570289
<slangasek> RAOF: if so, I need a backtrace on this sucker
<RAOF> slangasek: That looks like the symptoms - how do I get a backtrace?
<slangasek> RAOF: edit /etc/init/mountall cleverly, to spawn gdb with a non-interactive script and output redirected to somewhere useful under /dev
<slangasek> RAOF: you will need to drop the 'expect daemon' line from mountall to accomplish this
<pitti> would it be possible to enable apport and add a "started apport" condition?
<slangasek> RAOF: you'll want to put a gdb batch script on the root filesystem somewhere, containing the commands 'run\nbt full' and launch gdb -x /path/to/script -batch mountall
<slangasek> pitti: no, that would be a dependency loop
<slangasek> but depending on how the filesystem is laid out, you might be able to call 'start apport' in the pre-start script of mountall
<pitti> RAOF: or, if that fails, just add this: echo "|/usr/share/apport/apport %p %s %c" > /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern
<pitti> ah, I guess it'd fail anyway, since it needs a writable /var/crash/
<pitti> so, hand-crafted gdb is it then
<RAOF> Let's give that a whirl
<Keybuk> slangasek: my hunch on hat one
<Keybuk> the process_pending_events processes whatever is in the list you're while looping on
<Keybuk> which matches the assertion
<Keybuk> so I thought the two functions in the loop migh just need to be swapped
<slangasek> Keybuk: I wouldn't expect process_pending_events() to process outgoing requests, which is the only way I can see this causing that failure?
<slangasek> since we loop while (ply_list_get_length (client->requests_to_send) > 0)
<Keybuk> if the event is the closing of the file descriptor ?
<slangasek> we certainly can't reverse the order of those calls, because that brings back the deadlock where both ends are trying to write at the same time
<Keybuk> I might clear the pending events from the lis
<slangasek> hmm
<Keybuk> that was my guess
<Keybuk> but I didn't want to go swapping the order around, since I was sure you had a very good reason for the functions being in that order
<RAOF> Gah!
<slangasek> that might explain it; I'll have to go code-digging to see
<slangasek> RAOF: ?
<RAOF> The screen gets cleared just after mountall gets called, so I can't see any output, and / is still read-only, so I can't pipe output anywhere
<slangasek> Keybuk: yeah, the reason not to swap them is bug #554737 :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 554737 in plymouth "ply_boot_client_flush() does not read replies (plymouth stuck during/after filesystem check or error)" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/554737
<slangasek> RAOF: no, output it to /dev
<slangasek> (I think I said this :)
<RAOF> You did, I just didn't pay enough attention :)
<Keybuk> and now you go hungry
<Keybuk> ah, I thought I had just eaten too much mexican food and couldn't type
<Keybuk> instead it turns out that the 't' key was falling off
<slangasek> bryceh: have you learned anything more about bug #553708?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 553708 in plymouth "ubuntu-logo theme: Mount error message is overlayed with the S&M message" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/553708
<slangasek> RAOF: is that working better?
<Keybuk> the "S&M message" ?
<RAOF> Ok.  Now it is redirecting to /dev, just an empty file!  The mountall script now has âexec gdb -x /gdbscript -batch mountall > /dev/mountall.logâ in the obvious place, and /gdbscript has ârun\nbt fullâ (with \n expanded into a real newline).
<Keybuk> ah, I'd forgotten that one
<Keybuk> Unable to mount your filesystem.
<Keybuk> Say the safe word to abort.
<RAOF> Ahem. :)
<slangasek> RAOF: maybe add a 2>&1 as well?
<slangasek> (not sure why that would be needed, but)
<RAOF> Yeah - gdb should be on stdout, surely.  Anywayâ¦ added.  Let's give *that* a whirl.
<RAOF> Nope.  Empty again.
<slangasek> hmm
<RAOF> Hm.  It also has changed the behaviour somewhat.  Rather than waiting for me to unlock the dmcrypt device, it's now failing without prompting for the passphrase.
<slangasek> er - mountall really shouldn't affect that
<slangasek> can you post your full /etc/init/mountall.conf?
<slangasek> well, though I guess if mountall is failing before even emitting virtual-filesystems, udev won't start either
<Keybuk> jono!!!!
<jono> oi oi Keybuk :)
<RAOF> slangasek: http://pastebin.com/4fMG50Ze
<RAOF> (Sorry about the delay; it's a bit hard to get things off the laptop :)
<RAOF> And http://pastebin.com/qGP2WgeP is /gdbscript
<Damascene> I want to create personal page on ubuntu wiki, were should I ask?
<RAOF> AHA!  gdb looks like it wants to be able to write to /
<slangasek> RAOF: 2>&1 has to go after > /dev/mountall.log
<slangasek> oh?
 * RAOF never gets shell redirections right the first time :(
<RAOF> If I remount / rw before calling gdb, I get some output in /dev/mountall.log.
<slangasek> RAOF: "2>&1" == "make fd 2 point to the same place that fd 1 currently points"
<slangasek> RAOF: interesting, ok
 * micahg could see how that could be confusing, if you use tee, the redirection is before the pipe
<RAOF> However, that output in /dev/mountall.log doesn't include a backtrace, and is just mountall saying âyup, your drive doesn't need to be fsck'dâ
<Keybuk> micahg: that's because a pipe is a different part of shell language
<slangasek> RAOF: ah; you may have to trap SIGABRT explicitly
<Keybuk> |, like &&, ||, ;, etc. separates distinct commands
<Keybuk> so the redirect has to go on the left of the pipe, otherwise it applies to the command after the pipe rather than the command before
<micahg> Keybuk: yeah, I understand, but I took a double take when I saw that since I'm used to doing 2>&1 | tee /tmp/foo
<slangasek> RAOF: hmm, no - gdb handles SIGABRT by default
<RAOF> I thought it did, yeah.
<Keybuk> micahg: it makes a kooky sense
<micahg> Keybuk: it makes great sense if everything is in perspective, slangasek described it well
<slangasek> RAOF: do you still get the abort message somewhere?
<Keybuk> micahg: 2>&1 | there means "make fd 2 point to the same place that fd 1 currently points" still - the pipe means that fd 1 is always connected to the next process, rather than stdout
<Keybuk> whereas >log 2>&1 vs. 2>&1 >log now make sense as different
 * micahg has a lot to learn still
<Keybuk> more fun .. what does  ...   cmd >log 2>&1 | less  do? :p
<Keybuk> and to make your brain really hurt, try that in zsh ;-)
<ion> Depends on the shell. In dash, less gets nothing. In zsh, it gets the output from cmd.
<Keybuk> zsh's pipeline handling is based largely on a dare
<ion> Just like echo foo >bar >baz works in zsh.
<Keybuk> I like <(...)
<RAOF> Accursed thing!  What's preventing keyboard input?
<Keybuk> e.g.  diff -u <(sort file1) <(sort file2)
<ion> Yes, <(...) is nice. I use it frequently in xargs -a <(find ... or dpkg -L ... or something) -d'\n' cmd ... where i want cmdâs stdin to be the terminal.
<ion> For instance, xargs -a (ls | shuf) -d'\n' mplayer to play the videos from cwd in random order.
<ion> <(
<RAOF> There's a lot of craziness here - if I don't unlock the dmcrypt partition in break=mount it seems that the recovery shell and the cryptsetup unlock dialog fight for input, and neither gets any.
<slangasek> 'dmcrypt'?  Is that using cryptsetup, or not?
<slangasek> oh, you say that it is
<RAOF> Well, to unlock it I run âcryptsetup luksOpen ...â, so I presume that's using cryptsetup :)
<slangasek> RAOF: try commenting out 'console output' in /etc/init/cryptdisks-udev.conf
<ion> Glob expansion in zsh is especially nice. echo foo/**/a*(.) (equivalent to find foo -type f -name 'a*' -print0 | xargs -0 echo)
<Keybuk> ion: indeed; though we're kinda getting in the way of debugging here, so I'm going to shut up P:
<ion> Hehe
<RAOF> Eh, not that much in the way :)
<RAOF> slangasek: /etc/init/cryptdisks-udev.conf doesn't *have* a âconsole outputâ stanza.
<slangasek> really?
<RAOF> http://pastebin.com/JBvmKQ74 is the full output of mountall.log, with stderr redirected appropriately.
<slangasek> oh, I guess I have a modified version of that file then :P
<RAOF> But that output is after manually unlocking the crypted disc, which doesn't have the same behaviour.
<slangasek> Keybuk: ^^ maybe you can interpret that pastebinned output?  gdb seems to be unhappy with being launched from upstart or something
 * slangasek runs to grab breakfast
<Keybuk> you can't launch gdb from upstart
<Keybuk> not without taking out the "expect ..." bit
<RAOF> Keybuk: You mean the âexpect daemonâ bit?  That's commented out.
<Keybuk> oh, dunno then
 * RAOF comments out random âconsole outputâ stanzas
<Keybuk> try "console owner"?
<Keybuk> maybe the ioctl is inappropriate unless it's married?
<RAOF> That should totally be a technical term!
<Keybuk> "how do you like your ioctls?  raw or cooked?"
<RAOF> Hey!  Since I've already remounted / read-write I can just write the gdb log somewhere permanent!
<pitti> RAOF: I set up a test system with cryptsetup-LUKS LVM now, in case you need more testing for something
<RAOF> So, âconsole ownerâ seems to have cleared up those inappropriate ioctl messages, but there's still no backtrace.
<RAOF> slangasek: Shall we just go on a printf debugging spree?
<dholbach> good morning
<slangasek> RAOF: cjwatson's suggestion just now was to adjust the mountall job to call chdir /dev and set 'ulimit -c unlimited', so that you can get a core file there - rather than trying to get gdb to work under upstart
<slangasek> then we can postprocess at leisure
<RAOF> Seems reasonable; doing so ow.
<RAOF> *now
<Keybuk> chdir /
<Keybuk> limit core unlimited unlimited
<Keybuk> ;-)
<Keybuk> (can go directly in the conf file)
<slangasek> heh, ok
<RAOF> We have a core, and a backtrace.
<RAOF> ...and maybe I need to install a bunch of dbgsym packages.
 * slangasek nods :)
 * slangasek afks again to run across the river
 * RAOF will install dbgsym and generate a better trace.
<Keybuk> slangasek: I know the Thames has a reputation for being polluted, but it's totally unfounded - and besides, at the point of the hotel and office, it's completely tidal anyway
<Keybuk> attempting to run directly across it will only result in drowning
<slangasek> Keybuk: I seem to have made it ok
<slangasek> perfectly dry, too
<bryceh> slangasek, no, I got busy with other stuff and just worked around it
<Keybuk> RAOF: any further on that better trace?
<RAOF> Keybuk: got a better one, then rebuilt everything with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=noopt,nostrip and installed further dbgsym packages.
<cjwatson> persia: 0~FOO is fine in Soyuz - the only problem is that sync-source won't work out of the box because I think it still compares to 0, but that's OK, we can easily work around that
<RAOF> Yay!  Got *all* the stack this time
<Keybuk> RAOF: may I see?
<RAOF> Keybuk: http://paste.ubuntu.com/423232/
<Keybuk> right, pretty straight forward
<Keybuk> just to confirm sanity
<Keybuk> if you up a couple of frames and
<Keybuk> p client->requests_to_send
<Keybuk> do you get 0
<Keybuk> ?
<RAOF> I presume you meant p *client->requests_to_send?
<RAOF> $2 = {first_node = 0x0, last_node = 0x0, number_of_nodes = 0}
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> ok
<Keybuk> so pretty straight forward
<Keybuk> when it flushes the plymouth fd, there are requests to send
<Keybuk> the first call is to process_pending_events ()
<Keybuk> this can clearly send events (it polls on write)
<Keybuk> so it writes out the queue
<Keybuk> there are now no events to flush
<Keybuk> so process_pending_requests will assert
<Keybuk>   while (ply_list_get_length (client->requests_to_send) > 0)
<Keybuk>     {
<Keybuk>       ply_event_loop_process_pending_events (client->loop);
<Keybuk>       ply_boot_client_process_pending_requests (client);
<Keybuk>     }
<Keybuk> ...
<Keybuk> slangasek: since ply_event_loop_process_pending_events () will *call* ply_boot_client_process_pending_requests () if the fd is writable
<Keybuk> isn't that loop wrong?
<Keybuk> should it not simply be
<Keybuk>   while (ply_list_get_length (client->requests_to_send) > 0)
<Keybuk>     ply_event_loop_process_pending_events (client->loop);
<cjwatson> <slangasek> does it call it?  I don't think it does
<Keybuk> it definitely definitely definitely does
<Keybuk> that's the whole purpose of that function
<Keybuk> to be called from inside ply_event_loop
<Keybuk> look at ply_boot_client_queue_request
<Keybuk> when a request is queued, if client->requests_to_send is 0 then it sets up an fd watch that calls ply_boot_client_process_pending_requests() whenever the fd is writable, then queues the request to send
<cjwatson> right
<Keybuk> so all the time that client->requests_to_send is *not* 0, that function will be called whenever the fd is writable
<cjwatson> OK.  So why isn't this asserting for everybody?
<Keybuk> and in the bottom of the function itself, it clears its own watch once the list is empty again
<Keybuk> I guess for most people, the epoll says the fd isn't writable
<Keybuk> and then it blocks in the second function
<Keybuk> but for RAOF, the epoll says it's writable
<Keybuk> so that assert
<Keybuk> very fast machines assert maybe?
<Keybuk> or machines with oodles of memory (big socket buffs)
<cjwatson> yes, that could make sense.  In that case it isn't particularly configuration-specific and I think we ought to respin
<Keybuk> it'll also only assert if you manage to completely *drain* the request list inside that first call to epoll
<cjwatson> so pretty racy
<Keybuk> and the request list when fsck is concerned is pretty long, so hard to drain
<Keybuk> so yeah, the assert pattern would look something like
<Keybuk> - there are requests when flush() is called
<Keybuk> - the fd polls for writing (write will not block)
<Keybuk> - all of the requests are able to be written before write would block
<Keybuk> - thus by the next call, there are no longer any requests
<Keybuk> ok, my work here is done
 * Keybuk hands over to the day shift
<SuN__> I can not log gives me a black screen and reboot ... how to help me reinstall
<kees> pitti: yeah, part of the downside to lots of tests is lots of test data :)  that said, if you want to extract a single test, scripts/make* to build test tarballs
<lucas> what's the current process to upload a one-liner bugfix for a universe package?
<pitti> lucas: upload it and make sure that the changelogaand linked bug properly document the change
<lucas> pitti: thanks
<lucas> pitti: a fake sync from debian is fine, too?
<pitti> lucas: same criteria: depends on whether the debdiff is 100% obvious and regression proof
<lucas> ok
<pitti> lucas: aside from that, a big concern is that builds must be completed soon, to avoid having pending build records at release
<pitti> lucas: for most (i. e. relatively small) packages that's not a problem
<pitti> it might be for things the size of linux/OO.o/openjdk
<lucas> pitti: ok, will upload ASAP
<pitti> lucas: merci
<jibel> tseliot, could you please have a look at 565407, another fglrx issue when installing the ubuntu package over the ati installer
<jibel> tseliot, the fglrx preinst script removes /etc/ati _before_ running ati's uninstallation script.
<tseliot> bug #565407
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 565407 in fglrx-installer "package fglrx (not installed) failed to install/upgrade: subprocess new pre-installation script returned error exit status 1 - inst_path_default or inst_path_override does not exist in /etc/ati wh..." [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/565407
<jibel> tseliot, fglrx-uninstall.sh fails when installing the ubuntu package over the ATI driver because its /etc/ati disappeared
<joaopinto> ogra, can you tell me the bug nr for the mount with a broken clock ?
<joaopinto> good morning all
<ogra> joaopinto, bug 563618/
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 563618 in initramfs-tools "Ignoring a broken clock results in infinite reboots; not ignoring results in fsck failure; no solution to this problem" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/563618
<ogra> hrm
<joaopinto> tks
 * ogra wonders where that slash came from
<joaopinto> there is a fix released ?
<ogra> a workaround
<ogra> the actual fix has to happen upstream
<tseliot> jibel: that sounds like a bug in the ati installer to me but still I can see how badly it can affect dist-upgrades.
<tseliot> slangasek: ^^
<cjwatson> ogasawara_: bug 570542 (iso-testing) looks like a straightforward fix - maybe SRU?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570542 in linux "linux-image-virtual does not include ahci module, prevents virtualbox from booting minimal vm install" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570542
<jibel> tseliot, not really because once you've tried to install the ubuntu package you cannot uninstall the ati driver anymore.
<ogasawara_> cjwatson: ack, thanks
<jibel> tseliot, shouldn't we detect the presence of the ati driver before attempting to remove any of its files ?
<tseliot> jibel: what I meant to say is that deb packages should uninstall cleanly without having to look up some random file to see what it has installed
<tseliot> jibel: I know that we call /usr/share/ati/fglrx-uninstall.sh in the preinst so removing /etc/ati/after that should solve the problem
<jibel> tseliot, indeed
<tseliot> slangasek, pitti: do you agree to include this trivial fix in the final release (for the sake of dist-upgrades)?
<pitti> tseliot: upgrades can easily be fixed as SRUs, too
<tseliot> pitti: sure but we would break a lot of dist-upgrades in the mean time...
<pitti> tseliot: at this point I defer to slangasek and cjwatson, they are coordinating the current rebuild ATM
<tseliot> ok, thanks
<ajmitch> update-manager workarounds can be done outisde of that as well, right?
<slangasek> tseliot: trivial fix - no, the deadline for those was Sunday
<slangasek> tseliot: we can't afford to further delay ISO mastering
<pitti> tseliot: please get it uploaded to lucid-proposed now
<tseliot> slangasek: too bad, well, I tried. I'll do as pitti suggests
<mvo> ajmitch: do you have anything particular in mind?
<pitti> tseliot: they'll be accepted immediately after the release, and as long as they get positive confirmation/testing, I'm also happy to shorten the 7 day delay
<ajmitch> mvo: nothing particular, just seeing the discussion from tseliot & jibel about the ati driver
<tseliot> that would be a good compromise
<persia> cjwatson: Thanks for the clarification.  I remembered something broke, but it's nice that it's just a helper script that ought become obsolete sometime during the maverick cycle.]
<RAOF> slangasek: plymouth -ubuntu2 boots my system correctly.  Thought you might like some confirmation ;)
<slangasek> RAOF: great, thanks for confirming :)
<deryck> pitti, ping
<pitti> hey deryck
<deryck> pitti, hey!  What is the significance of the "set next expectations" item being dropped from the blueprint?  Is that just because its in progress but close to next UDS?  Or less important now?
<pitti> deryck: I added a comment to the whiteboard; it's not a WI of the desktop team, thus I dropped it from the desktop team's work list for lucid (just to clean up, while checking which lucid WIs were still outstanding)
<pitti> the actual bug report is still open, of course
<deryck> pitti, ah, ok, that makes sense.  Sorry missed the comment.
<seb128> is firefox supposed to have an offline startpage?
<persia> seb128: I think you only see it when you're offline.
<seb128> right, that's what I meant, should I get a startpage or an errorpage when starting offline?
<persia> I think you should get a startpage :)
<seb128> ok, I don't
<persia> fta: micahg: any input?
<seb128> that's on the live image though
<seb128> if that makes any difference
<persia> Ought be the same.
<slangasek> smoser: hi, we need a UEC/EC2 respin to pick up the latest plymouth change; can you take care of that this morning?
<elmo> kirkland: people.canoncial.com has tons of space these days
<slangasek> smoser: n/m, have triggered it here
 * didrocks starts to upload every daily for history then ;)
<kirkland> elmo: any chance those images were backed up somewhere?
<smoser> slangasek, sorry i missed you. you're all set?
<slangasek> smoser: yep, we're good - thanks
<smoser> as a simple "build it" i use: sudo -u vmbuilder ~vmbuilder/bin/cronrun build-daily lucid server
<slangasek> yeah, I grabbed it from the cronjob
<slangasek> doko_: you've seeded texinfo-doc-nonfree without an MIR?
<ogra> pitti, i just noticed Bug 390677 too on an omap install, the intresting piece here is that it seems to appear if i do the same install in english locale (and there is enough space in the window in both cases (usign 1280x720 here))
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 390677 in hundredpapercuts "Hidden line during install wizard" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/390677
<pitti> yeah, the window is smaller than it could be
<ogra> its the same size in both variants for me
<ogra> it just doesnt show the last line
<ogra> and there is no scrollbar
<ogra> (note i'm doing only-ubiquity since thats the default on omap)
<doko_> slangasek: yes, afaict we never did require MIR's for GFDL'd docs that Debian does see as non-free. pitti?
 * persia thinks they ought get wave-through MIRs for records-keeping purposes anyway
<pitti> we haven't discussed them being in universe (i. e. consider them free)
<pitti> but MIRing them right now, two days before the release, when it has happily stayed in universe since dapper certainly does warrant a MIR IMHO
<persia> pitti: Hrm?  I was sure I saw a statement that GFDL was considered Ubuntu-free previously.  Are you sure it's undiscussed?
<pitti> persia: sorry; I mean not re-discussed for every package instance
<persia> Ah, all is now clear :)
<pitti> we have a general agreement that GFDL is Ubuntu-free-enough
<slangasek> dpm: do we have translation stats that you want included in the release announcement?
<doko> pitti: subscribed the MIR team to #75253
<dpm> slangasek, I'm still working on them. When is the deadline (if it isn't too late already)?
<slangasek> dpm: tomorrow - do you want me to use the same boiler plate as last time, and we'll fill in the numbers when you have them?
<slangasek> (so that I can send the draft for review)
<dpm> slangasek, that'd be perfect, thanks!
<kirkland> slangasek: asac: cjwatson: is anyone looking at netcf for Maverick in a blueprint?
<cjwatson> first I've heard of it
<cjwatson> oh for god's sake why do people keep perpetuating XML configuration files
<cjwatson> (netcf)
<cjwatson> or actually a library API involving XML strings!  nuts
<cjwatson> can't say I'm wildly enthused, but whatever
<kirkland> cjwatson: just curious;  the kvm/libvirt community is talking a lot about netcf right now
<cjwatson> this isn't a veto, it's just a lack of enthusiasm/interest
<kirkland> cjwatson: as a command line replacement for networkmanager, and useful for packages to setup networking consistently
<kirkland> cjwatson: no problem;  i'm just asking, really
<cwillu_at_work> cjwatson, can I interest you in a json configuration database? :p
<kirkland> cjwatson: i doubt the server team will have the bandwidth or clout to drive this into Maverick
<cjwatson> I would certainly like a command-line NetworkManager equivalent or frontend; there appear to be several possibilities for that
<cjwatson> cwillu_at_work: no :-)
<kirkland> cjwatson: conman?  (or what else)?
<slangasek> network manager itself doesn't need a GUI frontend to do its job
<cjwatson> no, I've seen at least one actually based on NM
<cjwatson> connman is entirely separate
<slangasek> you can store all the configs under /etc/NetworkManager
<cjwatson> right, you then just need something command-line to talk dbus to it
 * slangasek nods
<cwillu_at_work> people who put capital letters into pathnames should be shot
<cjwatson> was it cnetworkmanager?  something like that
<jcastro> cjwatson: yeah
<jcastro> I tried it once, it wasn't very finished
<cjwatson> I think there were a couple of versions with the same name
<cjwatson> anyway, I'd rather stick with the same underlying network configuration layer, rather than creating a new one
<slangasek> quite
<cjwatson> if nothing else, it is occasionally useful to be able to interact with NM from the command line on desktop systems too
<cjwatson> "X died, and I need to search the web to find out how to fix it"
<Riddell> tkamppeter: are you still editing DesktopTeam/Meeting/2010-04-27?
<persia> What should such an nm-tool do?  list, connect, disconnect?  Is it acceptable to expect users to configure manually?
<cjwatson> I don't want to try to design it now, though knock yourself out if you do :)
<persia> Just wanted to understand requirements.  I want to use it, and don't mind fiddling a little to be able to do so.
 * persia will try to write something up for potential discussion in a couple weeks
<slangasek> mr_pouit: will there be a Xubuntu release announcement at http://xubuntu.org/news/10.04-release for linkage in the release announcement mail?
<slangasek> superm1: http://mythbuntu.org/10.04/release - is that the right URL for you guys?
<superm1> slangasek, Yup
<slangasek> TheMuso, persia: is luisbg still involved in ubuntustudio?  he doesn't seem to have been on IRC for a month
<cjwatson> persia: my only thought is that it would be nice if it could optionally fish existing configuration out of gconf, although that clearly isn't always appropriate
<slangasek> TheMuso, persia: looking for confirmation on whether an UbuntuStudio release announcement is in progress, perhaps for posting to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/10.04release_notes ?
<persia> slangasek: He's become fairly absent.  I'd recomment grabbing ScottL: I'see ll if I can get him to join -release
<tkamppeter> Riddell, no.
<slangasek> persia: oh, he's already there
<persia> Ah, good.  I think he was working on release notes.  Dunno if he's done.
<persia> cjwatson: I think it'd need to do that in some ways, but I'll have to also look at the KDE implementation to see if I can find something that's generally freindly.
<cjwatson> pitti: bug 548891: SKIP actually is meant to be valid - it's a magic value defined by me in console-setup a while back, meaning "just leave the kernel keymap alone and don't change it".  I have a vague memory that X has a reasonable default keymap it could use, doesn't it?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 548891 in console-setup "keyboard input broken due to invalid "SKIP" keyboard model" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/548891
<cjwatson> pitti: I could make the value be something different if that's easier, but actually I'm inclined to suggest that since SKIP has been there way back to hardy, whatever's failing to interpret it on the desktop side should be fixed instead.  What would the correct package be to reassign this to?
<Riddell> pitti: we need SRU bug 535199 moved to -updates before release
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 535199 in packagekit "SRU: distro upgrade script incorrect in karmic" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/535199
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, so if it's supposed to be in /e/d/console-setup, then this can be reassigned to xserver-xorg-input-evdev; I'll care about it then
<pitti> cjwatson: the only sensible change would be to leave it empty (which I take isn't appropriate?), so let's keep it like it is
<pitti> Riddell: did someone do a test upgrade with that? I didn't see a followup
<Riddell> pitti: I'm doing one now although it should be someone other than me I would think
<pitti> Riddell: oh, that's fine; as long as it's the actual .debs from -proposed
<pitti> Riddell: (yes, in general it's better to have it tested by someone else, but since it's urgent..)
<Riddell> pitti: ok then yes it works good
<Riddell> can't comment on the bug, am in the middle of an upgrade now
<pitti> Riddell: can you please say so on the bug, for the records?
<pitti> ah
<Riddell> pitti: I'll go to the other room and do it, one sec
<pitti> Riddell: ain't networking great? :-)
<cjwatson> pitti: I don't remember why I didn't leave it empty, although it may be that that would cause other problems and there's still the upgrade issue anyway
<cjwatson> pitti: I'll reassign, thanks; shall I assign to you?
<pitti> cjwatson: please do, yes
<cjwatson> pitti: this has the advantage that it seems SRUable, so we could automatically fix people in this situation
<pitti> cjwatson: sounds like an easy SRU (well, I need to test what X does if you don't specify a keyboard layout)
<Riddell> done
<pitti> cjwatson: but as long as X behaves without any keyboard layout set (like, default to US), then it's a trivial udev rule change
<cjwatson> right
<pitti> cjwatson: ok, thanks for following up; it originally seemed to me that "SKIP" was a debconf-only magic value which somehow slipped into the config file
<slangasek> kirkland: I see you already have a handle on bug #570732 - are you doing any other tests to see if it's reproducible?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570732 in grub2 "Grub error: no such disk" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570732
<kirkland> slangasek: no, i haven't....  i just switched it to the right package, and bumped its priority
<cjwatson> kirkland: if I can get a recipe for reproducing this in a kvm, I will fix it
<kirkland> cjwatson: i'm most alarmed by the severe installer performance regression
<kirkland> cjwatson: i'm at 12 minutes in this install, and i'm still "Installing the base system"
<kirkland> cjwatson: i benchmarked a complete CLC/WC/SC/CC install at under 9 minutes, at beta2
<pitti> kirkland: please note that the dpkg fsync introduces a times-5 overhead; that's likely the cause?
<pitti> oh, beta2
<kirkland> cjwatson: was the only way i was able to conduct the full installation and live demo of UEC in a 45 minute presentation slot
<kirkland> pitti: ie, beta2 worked fine;  these GA candidates are taking much longer to install
<pitti> ah, it was re-enabled after beta-2 indeed
<kirkland> pitti: what's this, in a nutshell?
<pitti> kirkland: I just overheard your last couple of comments; did you already identify something else as the cause? or are you talking about dpkg
<kirkland> pitti: i'm suspect of dpkg, as it's the installation steps of the server installer that are really, really slow
<pitti> kirkland: during unpack, dpkg now calls fsync() a few times, to ensure data integrity (it previously caused a lot of 0-byte files on power failures, etc.)
<ogra> pitti, only during unpack ?
<pitti> kirkland: see dpkg 1.15.5.6ubuntu4 changelog
<kirkland> pitti: yeah, i have two levels of UPSes here, won't be any powerfailures on my end... how do i make it go-fast again?
<ogra> really smells like the cause for bug 532733 which we are unable to debug properly
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 532733 in qemu-kvm "apt/dpkg in qemu-system-arm hangs if a big task is installed" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/532733
<pitti> ogra: well, I checked the unpack and configure times of openoffice.org-common
<slangasek> kirkland: install on ext3 instead of ext4
<ttx> pitti: that would match my experience. dpkg cycles appearing to hang at various points
<kirkland> :-/
<slangasek> kirkland: if that makes it faster, then this is what it is
<kirkland> slangasek: oh, okay
<kirkland> slangasek: i'll do that next UEC machine
<ion> Two levels of UPSes? Sounds like worse power efficiency with little benefit over a single UPS to me. :-)
<kirkland> ion: it's a laptop, with a battery, plugged into a UPS
<cjwatson> yeah, OK, so the fsync thing would match up
<cjwatson> but that is not going to be changed now for lucid
<cjwatson> I'm very unhappy about ext4's behaviour here.  dpkg really has no good option
<cjwatson> it gets to lose data or be slow
<cjwatson> but the ext4 developers are famously unsympathetic; this has been discussed at nauseating length
<cjwatson> (the general issue, not this particular case)
<ogra> kirkland, if ext3 is supposed to fix it then its not 532733 :( rootstock uses ext3 by default (even used ext2 before)
<cjwatson> kirkland: back to grub2; is there a recipe?
<cjwatson> ogra: the dpkg fsync thing would not have caused hangs
<kirkland> cjwatson: there is no recipe; i can halt UEC testing to go and try to reproduce that
<ogra> cjwatson, oh. ok i thought that was the general opinion
<pitti> mdke, chrisccoulson: back in the old days I got a local start page when opening firefox and having no network connection; was that dropped deliberately?
<pitti> (it tries http://start.ubuntu.com/10.04//Google/
<cjwatson> ogra: no, it's a slowdown, not a hang
<pitti> / -> sic
<chrisccoulson> pitti - it wasn't, that should work
<chrisccoulson> seb128 already mentioned an issue to me
<pitti> chrisccoulson: trying on the current live system, it doesn't
<ogra> cjwatson, ah, k, we surely see a solid hang
<chrisccoulson> pitti - there is an issue currently where it only displays a non-localised offline page without any layout
<chrisccoulson> but i don't know why it's still trying to access http://start.ubuntu.com/10.04//Google/ with no network connection
<chrisccoulson> pitti - network manager is indicating that the network connection is disconnected?
<pitti> chrisccoulson: yes; I didn't give it a wpa password
<chrisccoulson> pitti - ok, i'm slightly confused then. i'll have a think about that ;)
<pitti> chrisccoulson: you don't get that on the live system?
<chrisccoulson> pitti - tbh, i've only tried it on my installed system
<chrisccoulson> pitti - bug 531882 is an issue anyway
<pitti> chrisccoulson: or in a guest session?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 531882 in ubufox "Default Home Page without style or images on offline mode" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/531882
<chrisccoulson> pitti - ok, i'll try with guest session
<chrisccoulson> bbiab, have to disconnect ;)
 * pitti -> gdm testing, bbl
<kirkland> slangasek: that's it exactly ... the same server install, from the same USB stick, on the same hardware.... 19:20 on ext4 and 9:08 on ext3
 * slangasek nods
<ion> Why does fsync cause such a performance difference on ext4?
<chrisccoulson> pitti - ok, confirmed from a guest session, but only on the first attempt
<kirkland> ion: apps are required to call fsync on ext4
<joaopinto> I had to add barriers=0 to make ext4 usable for sbuilds
<cjwatson> ion: fsync is considerably more than what dpkg actually needs
<cjwatson> ion: dpkg requires that either old or new file is on disk, not somewhere in between
<cjwatson> ion: ext4's requirement to fsync then rename means that it has to stop and wait for the new file to land
<cjwatson> this is fundamentally bound to be slower
<cjwatson> it is a filesystem misdesign caused by the filesystem designers optimising for theoretical benchmarks rather than for real-world applications
<cjwatson> and this is just a demonstration of why the recommendations made repeatedly and loudly by the filesystem designers cause poor performance
<ion> I mean, wouldnât the added fsync calls cause a similar slowdown on ext3, too?
<cjwatson> empirically, the added fsync calls are within experimental error on ext3
<cjwatson> I do not know why
<ion> Also, would it help if dpkg only used fdatasync?
<kirkland> cjwatson: would it be possible to disable the fsync calls when dpkg is run from d-i ?
<cjwatson> kirkland: not for lucid.
<cjwatson> this WILL NOT CHANGE FOR LUCID.  excuse me for shouting.
<cjwatson> far too risky
<kirkland> cjwatson: necessarily, if there's a power loss during installation, you're starting over from scratch anyway
<kirkland> cjwatson: that's very, very, very unfortunate
<cjwatson> I've discussed this briefly with dpkg upstream, and one possibility is to add an option for it
<cjwatson> kirkland: *shrug*
<cjwatson> use ext3
<cjwatson> it doesn't suck
<kirkland> cjwatson: great; let's switch ubuntu server default install to use ext3 then
<cjwatson> let's release-note it.
<pitti> OOI, does anyone happen to know if btrfs will handle this any better?
<cjwatson> ion: maybe, I'm not sure
<cjwatson> look, I'm not especially happy about the slower performance, but I don't think it's release-critical compared to data-loss bugs
<cjwatson> and I don't think that it justifies the risk of making non-trivial changes at this point
<ion> I donât find ten more minutes of install time too big a problem. Itâs how much out of the total runtime the installation is going have in its lifetime? :-)
<kirkland> ion: ten minutes sucks, considering i'm in the middle of approximately 40 installations today
<pitti> well, but integrity >> speed at this point, especially for installing updates in a production system
<elmo> just to add to an alternative voice to this
<elmo> it's not ten minutes on real server hardware
<elmo> and in my workflow, I don't care how long installs take
<elmo> but i care *very much* that they're consistent and correct
<Keybuk> and to add a voice with a different POV
<elmo> (how long installs take + within reason)
<elmo> (and believe me, I've done a lot of ubuntu server installs this week too)
<elmo> (except they were hardy, but whatever ;-)
<Keybuk> one of the problems with calling fsync() all the time is that in filesystems which do delayed allocation, have extents, etc. like XFS, ext4 and btrfs, is that it will lay down the files at every fsync
<Keybuk> which will increase the likelihood of fragmentation
<ion> keybuk: Yes, the filesystem sucks indeed. :-)
<cjwatson> right, and FAOD I think the whole "must call fsync before rename" thing is stupid and wrong
<cjwatson> but rock, hard place
<kirkland> pitti: i wholeheartedly agree on the update scenario; but i wholeheartedly disagree on the base install scenario
<cjwatson> look, there certainly are problems that would merit a respin at this point; but ones that require fairly deep modifications to the package manager aren't, imo, among them
<elmo> kirkland: I, for one, like my base installs to have integrity :-P
<kirkland> elmo: one fsync at the end takes care of that
<pitti> kirkland: right, I agree to installs; but too late now :/
<cjwatson> fsync is per-file-descriptor, FYI
<cjwatson> YM sync
<kirkland> pitti: cjwatson: is this something that can be fixed in 10.04.1 ?
<joaopinto> the ext4 choice for servers as other implications depending on the server role, e.g. mysql may get a major performance hit
<cjwatson> and I agree that there are better ways that the installer could deal with this, just not for 10.04
<kirkland> since 10.04 has shipped?
<cjwatson> kirkland: potentially yes
<ion> Yeah, a more intelligent filesystem might as well only flush whatâs needed and keep other allocations delayed.
<cjwatson> I'd like to agree something with dpkg upstream
<Keybuk> cjwatson: in at least ext4, fsync is per filesystem
<cjwatson> Keybuk: sure, but the API is per-file
<cjwatson> dpkg is not entitled to make that assumption
<Keybuk> cjwatson: yes, but then if you're being paranoid, dpkg needs to also open the directory file descriptor and fsync() that
<Keybuk> which it doesn't
<cjwatson> true
<pitti> Riddell: packagekit released to -updates; thanks for testing!
<cjwatson> and no doubt we'll pay the price for forgetting that in terms of bug reports
<Riddell> pitti: great
<jcastro> lucas: I've scheduled the debian session for Tuesday morning.
<joaopinto> kirkland, if you can somehow remount with barriers=0 before install you should get an ext3 similar performance
<cjwatson> I don't believe the installer offers an interface for that
<ion> Ah, one using barriers and one not doing so would probably explain the major difference performance between the filesystems.
<cjwatson> FTR this affects alternate install CDs much more than servers; I'm not picking on server here
<cjwatson> (but fortunately it doesn't particularly affect desktop since ubiquity operates differently)
<pitti> cjwatson: as for the SKIP bug, can that only happen with MODEL, or for LAYOUT etc., too?
<cjwatson> just model
<smoser> congrats ara
<ara> smoser, thanks!
<Caesar> Does anyone know if KDE has any plans to use gconf?
<cody-somerville> cjwatson, persia, geser, nixternal, stgraber: Do we mention declines in meeting report or just approvals?
<nixternal> Caesar: why would KDE us gconf?
<JontheEchidna> Caesar: I can pretty safely say that will never happen.
<Caesar> Jeff Bailey was saying he thought they were going to start using it
<nixternal> cody-somerville: good question...I would say just approvals from what i can remember...if you look through previous reports, i can't remember declines in them
<Caesar> What is KDE's equivalent?
<JontheEchidna> Caesar: KDE uses flat files in ~/.kde/share/config, accessed by a KConfig C++ class
<cody-somerville> nixternal, But what if there is related action items? :S
<seb128> Caesar, gconf is being deprecated next cycle so would be a bad choice
<Caesar> Whoa
<Caesar> seb128: more info?
<seb128> on?
<Caesar> gconf being deprecated
<Caesar> like a link, what it's being replaced with, etc etc
<seb128> dconf being worked for over a year
<seb128> google for dconf and GNOME I guess
<Caesar> Thanks
<seb128> it's a GNOME3 goal
<seb128> the techs required mostly landed in glib previous cycle and now
<seb128> it will depends on no other GNOME lib than glib I think
<seb128> could be a good freedesktop choice I guess
<geser> cody-somerville: I'd mention both; for documentation and for completeness
<geser> cody-somerville: and to be able to find the meeting again when re-applying to be able to re-read the meeting log
<Damascene> I keep getting I can't report a problem with the kernel because it's a not a genuine ubuntu package
<Damascene> I'm on lucid, updated
<cody-somerville> geser, Yea, I Agree with you.
<maco> Damascene: what's your "uname -a" say?
<Damascene> Linux tester01-laptop 2.6.32-21-generic-pae #32-Ubuntu SMP Fri Apr 16 09:39:35 UTC 2010 i686 GNU/Linux
<Damascene> so?
<Damascene> is there any of apport guys?
<ccheney> anyone know if there is a bug yet on update-manager being too large to fit on 800x600 screen (and thus netbook 1024x600 also)?
<ccheney> er update-manager when running upgrade between dists at least
<ccheney> if you click on details it goes way off the bottom of the screen
<cody-somerville> geser, Do you think I should include it in the meeting minutes mailed out to ubuntu-devel-announce?
<cody-somerville> geser, I'm thinking no
<geser> cody-somerville: I'm thinking yes, the minutes are for those who want to stay informed but can't/won't attend the meetings, so the minutes should be complete
<geser> as the meeting was public and logged (so those results are also logged), we shouldn't hide those results from the minutes
<lucas> jcastro: tuesday? are you sure zack will be there?
<jcastro> he mentioned he would be there for tuesday
<lucas> ok, he mentioned he'd do thursday+friday, but that was probably before
<jcastro> I'll doublecheck with him
<lucas> jcastro: the wiki page says 2010-05-12 20:00 as arrival time for him
<jcastro> lucas: so thursday it is
<lucas> jcastro: perfect, thanks
<bdrung> mako: it's hard to find the source for http://selectricity.org/
<mako> bdrung: huh, i thought the "copyleft" text in the bottom linked to the source
<mako> bdrung: but i see now it links to the blog
<mako> bdrung: i'll fix that. thanks for pointing it out
<bdrung> thanks
<mako> bdrung: but you did find it, i hope?
<bdrung> mako: through the debian-devel mailing list ;)
 * mako winces :)
<bdrung> mako: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2010/04/msg00478.html and a offlist answer "Look at http://projects.mako.cc/source/selectricity/README (google "+selectricity source"), there it says:[...]"
<mako> bdrung: i'll follow up to the list after fixing it
<bdrung> mako: one suggestion: instead of "This program is free software. Please see the COPYING file for details.", you should add either the GPL header or at least one sentence with the license "It's licensed under AGPL-3. Please see the COPYING file for more details."
<mdke> pitti: hopefully a firefox issue rather than ubuntu-docs issue...
<pitti> mdke: right, I just included you to know whether the local start page was abolished for some reason
<pitti> good night everyone
<mdke> pitti: fine. Personally I don't think it's a big issue - if the user is disconnected, it's probably helpful that firefox says so. but that's something I'll discuss for the next release...
<kees> jcastro: from http://ubuntudevelopers.blip.tv/file/3544126/ "all the specs in your queue" where is my queue?
<jbebel> Why would launchpad tell me that my debdiff attachment to a bug does not look like a patch?
<bdrung> jbebel: maybe a bug?
<jcastro> kees: they show up here: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-m
<kees> jcastro: but that's _all_ of them, right?
<jcastro> kees: page 2
<jcastro> yeah
<kees> jcastro: so there's no "show me all uds-m specs that have me as approver" list?
<jcastro> kees: you need to put "security" in the "show only blueprints containing" box
<jcastro> afaik that's the only way
<ajmitch> blueprints certainly needs some love in LP
<micahg> ajmitch: file feature requests :)
<ajmitch> micahg: it'd be quicker to submit merge proposals
<jcastro> kees: aha! https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/~kees/+specs?role=approver
<micahg> ajmitch: I'm sure they'd appreciate it :)
<kees> magic!
<kees> jcastro: thanks!
<ccheney> do the new discs no longer allow cd test or memtest? or is there a special key you have to hit now?
<bdrung> ccheney: hit a key and the previous menu will come up
<ccheney> bdrung: ah ok, that must be what the hieroglyphics mean
<bdrung> ccheney: are keyboards that old? ;)
<kees> jcastro: how do I change track color?
<kees> jcastro: and is there such a thing as the auto-scheduler any more?
<ccheney> pitti: i see the SKIP issue, will test your ppa
<jcastro> kees: the lack of color is a bug, but you also need to set the "uds-m security" in each session in django. I am on a phone, when I am off I'll walk you through it
<kees> jcastro: okay
<Daviey> jcastro: is that another bug?!
<kees> jcastro: there also seems to be an issue with the room capacities; they don't match the hotel's recommendations (i.e. Amarenta vs Bois Dentelle)
<kees> asac: hm, yeah, I guess it should be "Discussion" or "New".  one of the "how-to" videos confused me. :)
<kirkland> cjwatson: i was not able to reproduce https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/570732 in a VM, set up as identically to the reporter's as possible
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 570732 in grub2 "Grub error: no such disk" [High,Incomplete]
<kirkland> cjwatson: i'll cobble together a couple of disks in a machine here shortly and try to reproduce it on real hardware
<jcastro> kees: I'll doublecheck the room capactities tomorrow with marianna. Where are you seeing the information from the hotel on the room capacity?
<jcole> i create customized livedvds of ubuntu within my company.. i usually use the "guest" user for "livecd simulation" but it seems to be "broke" in lucid (i get a blank screen instead of a gnome-screensaver password dialog after logging out of the "guest" user)
<jcole> im wondering how a i can debug this (or is the guest user being broke a know issue?)
<jcole> perhaps a bug in gdm switching
<kees> jcastro: http://www.dolce-la-hulpe-brussels-hotel.com/meetings/floorplans.asp -> http://www.dolce-la-hulpe-brussels-hotel.com/egallery/upload/Dolce%20International/Dolce%20-%20La%20Hulpe%20Brussels/Files/Dolce%20LA%20HULPE%20FR-ANG%20TABLEAU.pdf
<shan3> hi all
<shan3> Is it possible to use bash instead of sh for upstart jobs?
<jcole> shan: change /bin/sh to link to /bin/bash
<jcole> shan3: ^^
<shan3> jcole: would that break something else?
<kirkland> i have a system dist-upgrading, that's been stuck on "Setting up console-setup (1.34ubuntu15) ... " for about 4 hours
<kirkland> root     27721 23437  0 17:21 pts/1    00:00:00 /usr/bin/perl -w /usr/share/debconf/frontend /var/lib/dpkg/info/console-setup.postinst configure 1.34ubuntu14
<kirkland> but I'm not seeing that debconf frontend
<kirkland> ev: cjwatson: ^
#ubuntu-devel 2010-04-28
<YokoZar> Is there a way to tell dpkg to walk through a postinst script step by step?  I need to figure out where it's failing (and it only seems to fail in pbuiler environment for some reason)
<superm1> YokoZar, add a set -x to the postinst, you should see each command
<YokoZar> superm1: thanks
<MTecknology> Keybuk: Hey, imbrandon and I would like to work on this upstart thing.. I'd like to get every init.d script converted to an upstart script so we can maybe remove sysv-rv, sysvinit-utils, and initscripts as dependencies from upstart. jdong said I should talk to you about it.
<Keybuk> ok
<MTecknology> Keybuk: I'm obviously very novice, but it's something I'd like to work on for 10.10; You think you could steer me in the right direction? Or maybe there's something I'm clueless about that would make what I want to do pointless..
<Keybuk> no, nothing in the way - just nobody's had time
<MTecknology> Keybuk: if that's the only reason then... I'm perfect. I don't have a whole lot of time but I can devote ~1/2 of my FOSS time to it until it's done.
<persia> cody-somerville: It may be too late to mean anything this time, but in general I prefer the term "defer" to "decline": I'm not sure we've ever had a case (and I hope we never do) where we really mean "decline" in any permanent sense.
<MTecknology> Keybuk: Is there any wiki that would get me going on it?
<Keybuk> no, not really
<Keybuk> Upstart config files are quite different from initscripts
<Keybuk> initscripts are basically programs that start and stop services
<Keybuk> in Upstart, Upstart is that program, and the config files tell it what to do
<Keybuk> an Upstart script can be as simple as "exec /sbin/daemon"
<Keybuk> with all the tracking of the processes and stuff being down by Upstart
<Keybuk> a good place to start is "man 5 init"
<MTecknology> I've been looking around at the differneces. upstart seems to be very similar to openrc
<Keybuk> I don't know what that is
<MTecknology> It's Gentoo's replacement of the same thing
<ion> OpenRC is dependency based.
<ion> And itâs not an implementation of init.
<MTecknology> Isn't Upstart pretty much dependency based too?
<MTecknology> start on stopped udevtrigger
<persia> That's just a local configuration though.
<Keybuk> no
<Keybuk> Upstart is *not* dependency based
<Keybuk> let me explain
<jdong> Keybuk: ack sorry, I sent MTecknology over but I also wanted to preface the question a bit but was AFK
<Keybuk> I'll use a different example of a dependency based system to illustrate
<Keybuk> dpkg/apt
<jdong> Keybuk: I was mainly curious if you've communicated your thought on what events you'd like arbitrary services to start on, etc.
<Keybuk> packages have dependencies
<Keybuk> when you install apache, that will also install a whole bunch of other packages
<Keybuk> libraries, other daemons, etc.
<Keybuk> when you install squid, that might share some of those in common, and others it won't
<Keybuk> if you uninstall apache, apt can "clean up" the unused dependencies - but won't remove those used by squid
<Keybuk> then when you uninstall squid, again you can clean up the unused deps
<Keybuk> the important thing is that it's top down
<Keybuk> what you want is apache and squid
<Keybuk> what you get is a whole bunch of packages
<Keybuk> dependency based init systems work in *exactly* the same way
<Keybuk> you say you want apache and squid started
<Keybuk> and they work out what else they need to start (and in what order) to get you there
<Keybuk> likewise if you stop apache and squid, they may be able to stop other ancillary services
<Keybuk> *this is NOT how Upstart works*
<Keybuk> Upstart is event-based
<Keybuk> basically it's backwards
<Keybuk> rather than having goal services, instead it has events
<Keybuk> as a result of events, services might be started
<Keybuk> to put it one way
<Keybuk> services are started because the things they depend on are now running
<Keybuk> to use dpkg as the example
<Keybuk> you can't install apache
<Keybuk> but if you install a whole bunch of libraries, dpkg might realise you had everything you needed for apache and install apache for you ;-)
 * persia is kinda glad that upstart works that way and even moreso that dpkg doesn't
<Keybuk> right
<Keybuk> I think dep-based is correct for package managers
<Keybuk> ;-)
<Keybuk> the reason I think event-based is right for service managers is hardware
<james_w> is there any way to use the event information in reverse for dependencies?
<Keybuk> let's take the easy example of the Bluetooth service
<Keybuk> it depends on hardware
<Keybuk> how would you cause the hardware to magically appear when required (which is what the dep-based model requires)
<ion> Iâd love a package manager that installs Apache, OpenOffice and OpenTTD because i wanted GNU libc.
<jdong> james_w: well I used to graph based on events as a DAG, and that reasonably communicated bootup "order"
<james_w> If you are on a simple system, and want to start some complex daemon, do you have to work out which series of events you have to trigger and cause them to be emitted to get the daemon to run, or is there a way to ask for the daemon to be started, with anything else that is needed being done as well?
<Keybuk> james_w: yes, but it's important to remember that Upstart doesn't work that way
<persia> james_w: You mean have some ${upstart:Depends} that tracked which events were needed, which packages provided those events, and did the right thing?  My fear there is twofold 1) not everything is migrated to upstart and 2) many services do poorly in chroots, so that makes for awkward build-deps.
<Keybuk> james_w: if the complex daemon can be running, it's already running
<james_w> true
<james_w> so it would have to be disabled, and then asking it to start would start it
<Keybuk> james_w: I guess
<james_w> so when we have disabled jobs, there may be a desire to enable chains such that you can bring up sets of services that aren't run by default
<persia> Keybuk: Consider the case of daemons that are configured *not* to run by default, but only on demand.  This is common with game servers, for example.  Does upstart do the right thing if one calls e.g. `start wesnoth-server`?
<Keybuk> at this point, I'm not that interested in daemons that are configured to not run by default
<Keybuk> since Upstart doesn't support that
<persia> Ah, so those should stay initscripts for now.
<james_w> persia: the current way that you can do that is to have no "start on" line, so yes, that will start that daemon, but will assume that the job does everything that is needed from the current state of the system
<MTecknology> wow.. I iz opened a can of werms :P
<ajmitch> MTecknology: so you can see why it hasn't just been done yet :)
<MTecknology> ajmitch: ya, I still want to do it
<imbrandon> persia: good call, that bug is still itching at me , i still think its wrong to have server (even game) installed and not running by default
<Keybuk> james_w: you'd be surprised how few services *actually* depend on each other
<Keybuk> at least application-level services that sysadmins might want to deal with manually
<james_w> yeah
<persia> imbrandon: In general I agree with you, but I've seem some bug reports recently specifically wanting ad-hoc game servers.
<james_w> I was thinking of perhaps custom jobs on top, but you can do that with custom events instead
<Keybuk> that being said, I do have a plan
<james_w> insert some synthetic event at a certain level of the DAG and then just emit that event to start everything above it
<MTecknology> what's the plan?
<imbrandon> persia: yea but like in the case of wensworth its a bug in the gameserver, e.g. its coded diffrent for windows/linux, windows runs on demand and dosent install a service, thus thats how it should be on linux if they want it ad-hoc, if you install the service then it should run by default
<imbrandon> imho
<Keybuk> upstart in maverick separates events and states more than the current version
<Keybuk> services will be more often bound to states than started by events
<Keybuk> (states are still described in terms of events)
<Keybuk> a job in manual mode will have a true state, but not be started
<Keybuk> in that situation a sysadmin can start and stop
<Keybuk> if the state is false, but the bits that are false are references to other jobs, the "start" command will work and just start both
<imbrandon> Keybuk: hum manual mode huh? sounds like a good solution for the game-servers ... *thinks*
<Keybuk> if the state is false, and the bits that are false depend on events, the "start" command will fail
<persia> Keybuk: And if the bits that are false are hardware, would it just emit a helpful message (e.g. "Please insert a bluetooth dongle if you'd like to make your pan work")?
<Keybuk> I think we could invent a system for cataloguing helpful messages
<Keybuk> I suspect /sbin/start would say something a bit jargony
<Keybuk> while the GNOME UI would be helpful
 * persia backs away from dangerous sounding mixing of system/user interfaces
<imbrandon> Keybuk: is there an API where a (GUI) program could start a service daemon when its running and stop it when it closes ?
<Keybuk> imbrandon: yes, it's called D-Bus
 * imbrandon facepalms , shoulda thought of that
<jdong> Keybuk: now, what conventions would you like to be followed for upstart-ifying init scripts?
<imbrandon> persia: see where i'm going with this ? maybe a generic wrapper script for game clients, and the daemon side set to manual ...
<Keybuk> I'm not sure there are conventions just yet
<jdong> Keybuk: ok, I can forsee our desire to start , say, apache after a GUI is up
<jdong> (on desktop systems)
<MTecknology> Keybuk: so, is this maybe a little too advanced for my skill level, or do you think I could work myself into helping without too much headache?
<persia> imbrandon: That's fine.  What I fear is some little window popping up and saying "The following services didn't start" or similar.
<Keybuk> MTecknology: well, there's like half a dozen people on the planet who know Upstart well
<Keybuk> having another is always good
<Keybuk> persia: actually, having apport do that for services we know *should* be running wouldn't be bad
<imbrandon> persia: i was gonna sak, why would that be bad ?
<imbrandon> ask*
<persia> Keybuk: I've mixed thoughts about that.  How do we define "should"?
<Keybuk> ?
<lifeless> persia: morally wrong not to.
<imbrandon> persia: as long as you could turn the messages off for certain services it thinks *should* be started for the corner cases i think it would be an overall good thing(tm)
<MTecknology> Keybuk: Would I have any need to actually learn C to contribute to it or is there room for working on scripts only?
<persia> Well, fine, if Y'all really want it.  I think it breaks the user/admin paradigm.  I want there to be *one* place that the admin checks for that stuff, be it handheld, server, laptop, etc.  That's a core requirement.  That said, I'd like to trivially mask that sort of thing from non-admins.
<MTecknology> Keybuk: I actually just got interested today because I'd like to see sysv go away
<persia> And, in general, I prefer not to consider myself an admin when using a machine I administrate just because I'm logged in.
<Keybuk> MTecknology: I don't think you'd have to learn C, no
<Keybuk> persia: but we're not talking about admins
<Keybuk> there's certainly good cases for users being helped to file bugs when their system misbehaves
<MTecknology> I have a 20sec boot on my 5400rpm drive - I'm happy for the most part, but it took a good chunk of hacking at things to get there
<persia> Keybuk: Hrm.  My perception may be outdated (and I may find this sad in some ways), but I can see that.  Could we not just have a syslog facility that talked D-Bus to handle that case?
<Keybuk> how would that help the user file the bug?
<MTecknology> lol... dhillon-v10 is interested in that team too
<Keybuk> that's what apport is for
<persia> Ah, that takes away all my concerns :)  apport hooks for upstart jobs is definitely the way to go.
<persia> So the failure gets logged normally, and we have decent UIs for arbitrary environments that let the bugs get reported.
<Keybuk> exactly
<Keybuk> you could have, e.g. services that fail result in an e-mail to root with the output
<MTecknology> bbiab - gotta run to the store quick
<persia> Don't we already have a means to notify admins of pending unprocessed apport bugs?  I thought there was a /var/crash scan or something.
<Keybuk> no, I mean as alternatives for apport
<Keybuk> e.g. on servers
 * persia was under the impression there was such a thing already, and has used bits of apport to file bugs on servers.
<persia> But if it doesn't exist, yes, certainly, it ought.
<persia> Same applies to managed farms of desktops, etc.
<imbrandon> Keybuk: so it the "manual" mode currently in upstart thats publishing with lucid and/or is it the equiv of not having a "start on" line ...
<Keybuk> I don't follow
<imbrandon> e.g i have a service now, thats based on init.d , i want it installed but not running unless someone types "start <blah>" or dbus tells it to start
<imbrandon> can i do that in lucid now or have to wait for mavric
<imbrandon> if i convert to upstart
<Keybuk> you have to wait
<imbrandon> i know thats normaly not debian policy and you arent really worried about that corner case atm, but just curious if its possible ( its for a game server that has a bug in lp because it runs on install )
<imbrandon> thus they want the game server to only run when the gui client does ( like in windows )
<imbrandon> but keep the option to have it as a dedicated service , see the delima
<imbrandon> ;)
<persia> imbrandon: Or have it only run on-demand when the client runs, or when manually started (teg is an example of an implementation of that which once worked, but needs love)
<persia> imbrandon: So if you and I want to play together, only one of us needs start the service.
<imbrandon> persia: yea, thats why i'm thinking about a wrapper script for the gui, but i wanna make it generic so we can wholesaly ( is that a word ) use it
<MTecknology> btw - I was also wondering what purpose plymouth has aside from the pretty splash
<imbrandon> for other "game servers" , imho i think a server is a server and should be treated via debian policy, but i do see the users PoV
<imbrandon> persia: ^
<imbrandon> MTecknology: to serilize the console on startup
<MTecknology> imbrandon: what's that mean?
<persia> imbrandon: I'm of much the same preference, but gave up back in feisty or so because of bug reports.
<imbrandon> MTecknology: i'm probably not the best to explain it, but basicly pre-gui messages and ttys etc
<MTecknology> imbrandon: I'm just lost because the package description even says that it only provides boot animation
<MTecknology> not only, but that's all it says about itself
<imbrandon> MTecknology: heh its probably a bit light on the documentation , its still fairly new
<imbrandon> MTecknology: basicly its the glue between grub and desktop for the user ( lots of other stuff do the system stuff like whats in the initrd and upstart )
<imbrandon> MTecknology: like i said though, i'm probably not the best to explain it, but i do know its more than just a simple splash image, otherwise we would still use usplash
<MTecknology> imbrandon: I have no initrd and I have very little going on between desktop and system; It just feels like a little bloat for me and I don't see why it's a Depends instead of Recomends
<RAOF> MTecknology: A quick example of where you need to have a properly multiplexed terminal: You've got a dmcrypt device, so need to be prompted for a passphrase on bootup.  Also, this boot fsck is running, and offers you the option to cancel the check.
<RAOF> As upstart starts things in parallel, these are both started, and both interested in your input.  Where does your keyboard input go?
<MTecknology> fifo?
<RAOF> But âfirstâ is no longer well-defined, because upstart is starting things in parallel.
<RAOF> Does the âcâ that I type to cancel the fsck actually get fed to fsck?  Does it get fed to the cryptsetup prompt?  Is this deterministic between boots?
<jdong> RAOF: I guess that's the point of plymouth?
<jdong> at least that's what I understood plymouth to be. never looked at it (tm)
<MTecknology> so what's the solution?
<imbrandon> MTecknology: the solution to what ?
<jdong> MTecknology: I'd imagine it'd to be to define a higher order abstraction to user interation, for example, result = ask_the_user(question)
<jdong> and I was under the assumption that's what Plymouth was for
<MTecknology> imbrandon: the solution for how plymouth handles that
<imbrandon> MTecknology: i dont know how it handels it technicly, i just know it does
<imbrandon> :)
<jdong> MTecknology: if plymouth handles that, then the solution is fairly intuitive.
<jdong> before each app would (1) print question (2) read response.
<RAOF> MTecknology: I'm not sure of the details, but it appears to serialise input (and, I presume, output) into a couple of streams - the âI'm blocking on thisâ stream, ala cryptsetup, and the âuser might want to press this at some pointâ stream, ala fsck cancelling.
<jdong> now, plymouth would be the only one that (1) print question (2) read response)
<jdong> and other services ask plymouth to bug the user.
<MTecknology> so if the user NEVER needs to interact with more than one thing during boot and no application ever accepts keyboard input more than one at a time during boot, and the user doesn't want a pretty boot screen, then plymouth has no purpose?
<imbrandon> MTecknology: right, but thats alot of assumptions , especialy on a global scale like ubuntu
<RAOF> MTecknology: Well, and nothing wants to output status messages to the console.
<jdong> MTecknology: I suppose, but that won't be the case in most setups
<imbrandon> MTecknology: you would just a get a black screen after grub loads untill your gui starts, even if say fsck is going or something, with no idea whats happening
<MTecknology> jdong: I figured no setup can have those assumptions unless it's an embedded device
<MTecknology> so plymouth now makes a whole lotta sense
<jdong> MTecknology: exactly
<jdong> imbrandon: haha once I was stupid enough to turn on fsck on my N800.
<imbrandon> jdong: lol
<MTecknology> what happened?
<jdong> imbrandon: I figured since it was *cringe* using ext2 that bad poweroffs were going to be harsh on it.
<ajmitch> jdong: how long did you wait for?
<jdong> MTecknology: Zero block group? (y/n)
<jdong> (touchscreen driver not up)
<jdong> CRAP.
<ajmitch> ouch
<MTecknology> oh
<jdong> :)
<MTecknology> what's that do?
<ajmitch> jdong: that was foolish
<MTecknology> zero block grou*
<ajmitch> MTecknology: he means that he had no way of entering y or n :)
<MTecknology> I got that part :) - I was curious about what that does though
<MTecknology> I haven't done anything with fsck in a LONG time other than watch it fly through my disk one in a while
<imbrandon> lmgtfy.com hahaha j/k ;)
<jdong> MTecknology: generic "fsck found a problem, but just zeroing the problem area technically makes it go away, should I do that?"
<MTecknology> oh
<jdong> MTecknology: (which is again why you don't blindly say y to everything fsck asks and assume it smartly fixes your disk)
<MTecknology> brb
<ajmitch> jdong: I'm surpised you didn't have some crackful FS on ther instead
<jdong> it's the equivalent of your mechanic just ripping out hoses that look cracked and saying there's no more defective pipes :)
<imbrandon> btrfs ?
<jdong> ajmitch: in my opinion the default setup of running ext2 and not fscking no matter what... is pretty crackful
<ajmitch> imbrandon: too stable for jdong
<jdong> ajmitch: but I totally understood that they didn't have a "cough once for y, twice for n" inputdev.
<imbrandon> fuse zfs / ?
<jdong> :)
<jdong> ajmitch: ANNOYINGLY the rocker was wired up to the *arrow keys* and put ^[[A's and so on to the screen.
<jdong> so I wouldn't have imagined it to be a hard thing to map that to y vs n....
<jdong> (yeah yeah, file a bug, write a patch)
<ajmitch> jdong: sure, and remap that once booted?
<jdong> ajmitch: hehe yeah :)
<imbrandon> as long as you dident forget what one was maped to n
<imbrandon> red / green ?
<ajmitch> or typing a password by left-right combos
<imbrandon> everyoens n800 passwd would be "aaa"
<imbrandon> like arcade game high scores
<MTecknology> That was awesome chatter :)
<MTecknology> thanks everyone
<TheMuso> 8/c
 * ccheney think he is confused
<ccheney> didn't we disable bug reporting directly on launchpad at some point?
<ccheney> then we disabled bug reporting in the Help menu, but now launchpad bug reporting seems reenabled, so by default we are not going to be getting bug reports with apport info anymore?
<MTecknology> ccheney: ?no-redirect or something like that?
<MTecknology> ccheney: sometimes it's a pita to know what package is causing the issue - that's a feature that I personally like
<wgrant> ccheney: The root Ubuntu +filebug will redirect.
<wgrant> If you go directly to a source package's +filebug, it will not.
<wgrant> It will also not redirect for you at all, since you are in -bugcontrol.
<ccheney> wgrant: ah, i see that is why :)
<ccheney> wgrant: i forgot that it might look different since i am in bugcontrol :)
<Keybuk> urgh
 * Keybuk just, seriously, had a "could you turn the computer *on*" type moment on a bug
<ccheney> lol
<sladen> send them a descreet wake-on-lan packet
<Keybuk> bug #570692
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570692 in udev "Ubuntu 10.04 Can't open RFCOMM device: Permission denied" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570692
<imbrandon> Keybuk hahahah ( @the bug )
<Chipzz> diediedie :)
<Keybuk> we need a channel where the Code of Conduct does not apply
<Keybuk> #ubuntu-two-minutes-hate or something
<sharky> araaraaraara
<temugen> Keybuk: What are the units on /sys/dev/block/#:#/size ? And just as important, what are the units on the "at <location>" of ureadahead --dump?
<Keybuk> temugen: err, they're units ;)
<Keybuk> probably bytes
<Keybuk> but they might be different, one might be blocks
<temugen> I thought the <location> was bytes just based on... well, I don't know, but the size is different for sure
<Keybuk> 31252480
<Keybuk> wing-commander scott% cat /sys/block/sda/size
<Keybuk> 31252480
<Keybuk> that looks like blocks to me
<Keybuk> (a block is generally 512 bytes from a disk pov)
<Keybuk> not sure about offset, bytes I expect, but not sure
<Keybuk> might be blocks too
<temugen> ah, ok.
<Keybuk> (whereas the page cache operates in 4096 byte pages)
<temugen> indeed
<temugen> thanks for clearing that up
<Keybuk> some disks might use 4096 byte blocs
<Keybuk> instead of 512 byte ones
<Keybuk> just to add to the confusion
<temugen> Keybuk: I figured this much. There wouldn't happen to be an easy way to deduce the block size from the hdd number of --dump, would there?
<Keybuk> I don't think I know the answer to that
<Keybuk> it'll be in /sys somewhere if the kernel exposes it
<temugen> No problem :) I'll see what I can find
<Keybuk> ah
<Keybuk> queue/physical_block_size
<Keybuk> queue/logical_block_size
<jdong> is that what blockdev --report returns?
<temugen> jdong: blockdev --report works :)
<jdong> I don't know if the sysfs entries go through the same code path :)
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> ccheney: oh, thanks!
<ccheney> pitti: no problem :)
<ccheney> pitti: my results seem different from what others have posted, i'm not sure what is going on
<slangasek> superm1: you haven't been seeing bug #570843, have you?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570843 in ubiquity "[Lucid Lynx RC] Install hangs on a LAN-connected (but no internet) workstation" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570843
<pitti> ccheney: I have a theory; the "SKIP" might have been a red herring all along, and it was the broken variant
<pitti> "U.S. English" is a bogus variant
<ccheney> ok
<pitti> ccheney: hm, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xorg-server/+bug/548891/comments/8 only has "SKIP", and an empty variant
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 548891 in xorg-server "keyboard input broken due to invalid "SKIP" keyboard model" [High,In progress]
<pitti> perhaps it's a combination of both
<superm1> slangasek, no i haven't seen that
<slangasek> superm1: ok - phew :)
<superm1> not to say it's not a real bug though with his env, that guy definitely needs to run in debug mode and apport-collect
<slangasek> superm1: right - just trying to figure out the scope of the bug, sounds like it's definitely a corner case (and the submitter has already said he's not going to be able to help us debug, sigh)
<superm1> dang
 * ccheney is headed to bed now
<pitti> ccheney: good night! I'll answer in the bug report for something to try, and test it in the meantime
<kirkland> bdrung: http://people.canonical.com/~kirkland/Museum back online ;-)
<micahg> kirkland: where's karmic?
<kirkland> micahg: not yet done
<pitti> kirkland: ooh, thanks!
<kirkland> pitti: ;-)
 * pitti gets a ticket for a year
<kirkland> pitti: :-)  the exhibits need some freshening up
<kirkland> pitti: whoa, lookey there .... http://qa.ubuntu.com/reports/bug-fixing/lucid-fixes-report.html
<kirkland> pitti: ;-)
 * micahg is #14 \o/, althought half were probably fixed upstream :)
<pitti> kirkland: uh, congratulations!
<pitti> kirkland: seems you fixed a ton in the last week :)
<pitti> (last time I checked I had 4 more or so)
<kirkland> pitti: yeah, might be a bug in the accounting; i'm not sure what happened
<kirkland> pitti: but i had noticed it hadn't been updated in a few days
<kirkland> pitti: meh
<pitti> kirkland: it was a nice race! *hug*
<kirkland> pitti: *hug*
 * pitti still has some SRUs up his sleeve, but not enough to fix 12 bugs
<kirkland> pitti: there's still plenty of room for SRUs
<kirkland> heh
<kirkland> pitti: speaking of, i'll be bugging you about that;  we've got a stack for eucalyptus, and a handful of others
<kirkland> pitti: speaking of, can i get an sru ack of Bug 570870 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570870 in etherboot "pxe boot doesn't work with kvm" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570870
 * kirkland is off to bed
<pitti> kirkland: acked 20 seconds ago :)
<pitti> kirkland: btw, in general it's easier to just upload, and have us review from the queue; prior discussion is only needed if you are unsure whether it's suitable
<dholbach> good morning
<sladen> guten morgen herr Holbach meister
<dholbach> I don't know about any Meister :)
<dholbach> hey sladen :)
<sladen> actually, that's not very good faux German, it's got too many spaces in it!
<mvo> dholbach: you are on libribox! http://librivox.org/good-sense-by-baron-paul-henri-thiry-dholbach/
<dholbach> hahaha
<dholbach> thanks mvo
<mvo> my pleasure "baron"
<dpm> hi slangasek, I've got the translations stats for the release notes as we discussed yesterday -> http://people.canonical.com/~dpm/lucid-translation-stats.html . Shall I go ahead and just add them to the release notes wiki page?
<slangasek> dpm: to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidLynx/ReleaseAnnouncement, please
<dpm> ah, sorry, yes, the announcement, not the notes
<micahg> slangasek: is the annoucement/notes only for stuff in main or universe as well?
<slangasek> micahg: the announcement goes into almost no detail about packages, so nothing in universe would apply; the release notes can include notes about universe
<micahg> slangasek: ok, we'll probably need to put something in there for lightning, but will discuss with chrisccoulson
<dpm> slangasek, ok, two final questions:
<dpm> 1) I added a note below the FIXME pointing out that stats are now up to date. Shall I leave it like this, or just remove the FIXME alltogether?
<dpm> 2) The current text reads:
<dpm> "For a list of supported languages and detailed translation statistics for these and other languages, see:"
<dpm> I think we should use something else than "supported", as to not give the impression that these are Canonical-supported languages, they are all community ones. Have you got any ideas on what we could use instead? "fully translated", "complete"?
<cjwatson> kirkland: a debconf frontend doesn't necessarily actually show a UI - it only shows it if it has a question to ask at sufficient priority
<slangasek> dpm: please feel free to remove the fixme; the consensus around the table here seems to be that "supported" is perfectly ok to use here, and "fully translated" or "complete" both seem less accurate
<dpm> slangasek, ok, thanks. FIXME removed. I've also added a note on translations at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidLynx/TechnicalOverview, as we did with Karmic
<slangasek> dpm: great, thanks :)
<dpm> slangasek, thank _you_ for the heads up yesterday :)
<YokoZar> slangasek: poke (you have archives and you're online and we're sorta last minute here): I need the wine1.0 upload I just did approved so it passes --configure (and so that dssi-vst can then build, which then allows ubuntustudio to build).  Thanks :)
<YokoZar> (problem was nailed down due to help from kees)
<slangasek> YokoZar: what do you mean, "allows ubuntustudio to build"?  ubuntustudio images are already in final stages of validation, no one has communicated to me that there were any plans to update other packages for the UbuntuStudio DVDs before release
<YokoZar> slangasek: last I checked dssi-vst was part of ubuntustudio's default install
<slangasek> YokoZar: certainly not, dssi-vst has never been built in Ubuntu
<YokoZar> persia: ping
<YokoZar> slangasek: I've been trying to solve this since RC, and at that point there definitely was a trail from dssi-vst to ubuntustudio (it may have been dropped from the RC image due to the build failure)
<persia> YokoZar: It would be interesting to add, but no, there won't be an image rebuild request for it: you would have had to get it ready over the weekend.
<slangasek> YokoZar: "since RC" - er, wrong time to be putting new software in the images, anyway
<YokoZar> persia: tried and failed
<slangasek> now, given that this is *not* going to imply an image respin, that *improves* wine1.0's chances of getting into the archive
<slangasek> but I don't have time to review it, I'm afraid
<YokoZar> Makes sense, on both counts
<YokoZar> all I heard was ubuntustudio folks were waiting on it.  I'd never heard of the package before last week as it is
<persia> It's one of a few ways to use VSTs in Ubuntu, which tends to be a use case of interest to Ubuntu Studio.  There are other ways (less clean).  With the wine-1.0 stuff, dssi-vst becomes an SRU candidate.
<YokoZar> persia: as a new package?
<YokoZar> it never built so its source package is about to be deleted I think
<YokoZar> due to the archive stuff
<YokoZar> *archive rebuild stuff
<slangasek> no
<persia> What?  We're deleting source packages now?  We never did that before: mostly just binary deletions.
<slangasek> no, we're not
<Riddell> dholbach: how come the wallpaper here isn't blue? http://launchpadlibrarian.net/45931161/kubiquity.png
<persia> Good.
<dholbach> Riddell: no idea
<YokoZar> Ok I was mistaken then I thought the unbuildable-forever stuff was being removed entirely
<persia> YokoZar: It's binaries that were removed (about a month ago) on the premise that if we can't build it, we can't fix bugs in it.  About half of it has been restored since with FTBFS fixes.
<spaetz> perfect patch
<spaetz> oops
<Azoff> hello
<Azoff> I have noticed that the 3d party driver for Nuvoton 677x (released by ASRock in my case) breaks due to the lirc_dev-2.6.33.patch as reported here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lirc/+bug/570700
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570700 in lirc "lirc-modules-source-0.8.6-0ubuntu4: lirc_dev-2.6.33.patch breaks lirc-nct677x-src" [Undecided,New]
<Azoff> as you can see in the report, I have tracked this down to the name change of the lock attribute in the struct lirc_buffer, but I can't tell *why* this breaks the source package from ASRock
<Azoff> AFAIK, the compilation against lirc-modules-source should take care of this name change. There are no references to the lock attribute inside the source package, so it's not that trivial.
<Azoff> any ideas are welcome.
<mvo> Riddell: is there something like a "pulse" or "spinner" widget in qt/kde?
<Riddell> mvo: yes, let me look it up
<dennis> afternoon
<dennis> can anyone tell me if the bug with the flashplugin-installer will be fix at final release ?
<sladen> dennis: depends if you can help figure out the solution before tomorrow
<dennis> yeah... good one.... it seems to be a problem with the installer trying to installer putting the flashplayer in the wrong folders
<dennis> or so i've read on the net, but i am not sure
<dennis> any idea when it will be fixed then ? days, weeks perhaps ?
<dennis> the os is useless to me without a working flashplayer
<Riddell> mvo: actually it seems to have been taken out of the API since KDE 4, but konqueror uses http://api.kde.org/4.4-api/kdelibs-apidocs/kdeui/html/classKAnimatedButton.html with setIcons("process-working-kde")
<Riddell> there's also http://api.kde.org/4.x-api/kdelibs-apidocs/plasma/html/classPlasma_1_1BusyWidget.html if you're doing Plasma stuff
<Riddell> what's it for?
<mvo> Riddell: update-manager, to show that the upgrade calculation is in progress
<sladen> dennis: is it filed as a bug report?  If not, other people may not be aware that there is an issue.
<dennis> there is a bug report but it still says "status new"
<sladen> dennis: and what is the number of this bug report?
<mvo> Riddell: I will try to  figure out the python-kde support for this
<Riddell> mvo: you can also just use a QProgressBar with max set to 0 so it'll bounce left/right
<mvo> Riddell: aha, I will try that
<dennis> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/flashplugin-nonfree/+bug/532542
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 532542 in flashplugin-nonfree "[lucid] flashplugin-installer doesn't work with Firefox 3.6" [Undecided,New]
<dennis> it will refuse to configure the installer and then fail to install the package properly.
<Riddell>             progress.setRange(0, 0)
<Riddell>             progress.setValue(0)
<Riddell> mvo: from apport ^^
<mvo> Riddell: thanks!
<pitti> it's curious how we have 10 PPA buildds on one day, and just 3 on the other
<cjwatson> PPA buildds are shared with hw enablement
<persia> pitti: The pool of machines used for PPA builders is *also* used for other purposes.  It's always least available around releases and milestones.
<pitti> ah, extra mirrors?
<cjwatson> yes, that too
<persia> That's one use.
<pitti> amd64  3   2829 jobs (four days)
<pitti> I just wondered about that
<persia> I've seen it down to 2, with 2 weeks pending :)  Just wait a few days, and it usually comes back.
<pitti> we probably shouldn't put test rebuilds to times like that
<persia> Or use alternate infrastructure.  lucas does a full-archive test-rebuild on those arches in about 8 hours.
<pitti> anyway, just made me wonder, thanks for the answer
<pitti> persia: you know, if only we had some technology to move computation into the cloud :-P
<persia> pitti: That works too, but we don't have any sane autodeployment for the Soyuz buildd bits right now.
<pitti> (I know; just kidding)
<persia> I think lool was looking at what it would take a couple cycles ago, with the idea of deploying qemu-buildds on ec2 to make up for the speed of ARM hardware available then.
<doko_> pitti: hrm, a test rebuild usually has to be done before release, when else? ;)
<pitti> we can't fix anything now anyway..
<pitti> and lucas just did another rebuild about a week ago or so?
<pitti> anyway, they have low build score, so they don't really get in the way
<slangasek> pitti: when do we want to accept these langpacks into proposed?
<pitti> slangasek: IMHO, as soon as we declare a zero chance of final image rebuilds
<slangasek> pitti: why does it wait for this?
<pitti> so that they can make use of the otherwise empty i386 buildds and get out of the way of the post-release SRU rush
<slangasek> ok
<pitti> slangasek: "does it wait"?
<slangasek> pitti: why wait until there's zero chance of final image rebuilds before accepting them - your next line answered this for me :)
<pitti> slangasek: I just want to avoid a situation where e. g. a -base is updated, but the update pack isn't yet, causing uninstallability
<slangasek> but they're only in -proposed, so this doesn't strike me as a big concern
<pitti> oh, silly me
<pitti> slangasek: right, so let's accept them right now, shall we?
<slangasek> pitti: sure, please do :)
<kirkland> pitti: thanks for clarifying
<kirkland> cjwatson: thanks
<spaetz> why would I get: notmuch-maildir-fcc.el:70:8:Warning: `(setq subdir (cdr (assoc-string (message-fetch-field "from") notmuch-fcc-dirs t)))' is a malformed function
<spaetz> arrg, ignore me. sorry
<ttx> Got threatened to invoke GPL clause 2a to "force" us to upgrade Lucid fetchmail from 6.3.9 to 6.3.16... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fetchmail/+bug/557467/comments/6
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 557467 in fetchmail "Lucid fetchmail version way outdated and buggy" [High,Won't fix]
<ttx> strange days
<zul> ttx: wha?
<ttx> zul: we live in strange times
<ccheney> pitti: ugh i keeping hitting the virtual keyboard crash now while trying to login to test your new packages :-\
<ccheney> pitti: if i am seeing 526791 like the others in the thread (sounds similar at least) then that bug seems pretty bad also
<ccheney> hmm 'enhance contrast in colors' seems to permanently screw up the GDM theme
<ccheney> even after you disable that the theme stays different across reboot
<apw> pitti, just a heads up that i've uploaded a kernel and lbm combo; these are with a view to a realativly early sru for lucid
<seb128> the contrast color bug in gdm is a known bug
<ccheney> seb128: ok
<ccheney> i finally got the virtual keyboard to come up so i could log in, now on to testing :)
<slangasek> apw: btw, bug #560717 was fix committed, but not to the branch you've just SRUed? :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 560717 in linux "ports kernel lacks device-mapper as built-in (causes LVM not to activate)" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/560717
<apw> slangasek, right it contains exactly two changes which were approved as urgent
<apw> the rest remain 'committed' to our branch
<slangasek> well, ok
<slangasek> I think anything that I'm putting in the release notes is probably also urgent enough to have included, but that's fine
<apw> is that not right?  that they remain committed ?
<ccheney> pitti: works for me, i replied to the bug report
<jdstrand> mvo: hi! might I just say that I really like how you start an ssh server listening on 9004 in do-release-upgrade? I have upgraded several systems (hardy to lucid) remotely and this was invaluable. Thanks! :)
<jdstrand> mvo: 'sudo ufw allow 9004/tcp && sudo do-release-upgrade -d' ftw :)
<mvo> jdstrand: cheers, did something go wrong during the upgrade? if so, I want logs :)
<mvo> jdstrand: sounds like for lucid+1 we want a) ufw it automatically b) run it inside screen (if screen is availalbe) - what do you think?
<slangasek> pitti: I see bug #462704 is fixed now in jockey... does that mean the release note can be dropped because the package update is now done automatically?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 462704 in jockey "Crash when trying to set up wifi on Dell Mini 10v (Broadcom) in Kubuntu Netbook" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/462704
<mvo> jdstrand: automatically if the user consents with it of course
<jdstrand> mvo: it went as well as expected-- a couple of issues with some universe dkms packages, and typically conffile stuff
<mvo> jdstrand: ok, cool, happy to hear that :)
<jdstrand> mvo: the ufw idea is cool. screen, not so sure, but maybe
<mvo> jdstrand: thanks, I'm not a big server/screen user myself, so I can't really judge, I throw the ideas out and see which stick :)
<jdstrand> mvo: it was nice having the 9004 cause I could do my manual conffile merging as the install went :)
<jdstrand> mvo: there are some who would like it, some who wouldn't
 * mvo nods
<jdstrand> screen is a great tool, but it is different than a straight terminal
<jdstrand> mvo: question-- one thing that wasn't completely clear was if it would be restarted on the libssl upgrade. I assumed 'no', but cautiously didn't restart ssh either
<mvo> jdstrand: I don't think it would be restarted as its not started via the normal init script mechanism
 * jdstrand nods
<jdstrand> that is what I was thinking, but wanted to make sure
<ccheney> mvo: do you know if there is a bug about update-manager -d - details page being too large to fit on 600 vertical resolution? (it might be old as i was upgrading from karmic -> lucid)
<mvo> ccheney: I think there is a open one for this, yes
<ccheney> mvo: ok
<ccheney> anyone happen to know when the freeze for 10.04.1 will be, i see the release date is july 29th
<chrisccoulson> cjwatson - i see you did the binary removal in bug 568778. i'd prefer just to drop the whole thing and remove the source too. what do you think about that? we've been trying to minimize xulrunner rdepends in the archive this cycle, and i don't see the point in carrying one in the archive which isn't actually used by anything else yet
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 568778 in pacparser "Please remove packparser binaries from lucid" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/568778
<pitti> re
<pitti> apw: I think slangasek already accepted linux
<pitti> ccheney: ah, with pitti2? nice!
<ccheney> pitti: yes
<pitti> slangasek: uh, this is old.. yes, it should be fine now
<cjwatson> chrisccoulson: our convention for fails-to-build removals has been to remove only the binaries, and I followed that
<chrisccoulson> cjwatson, that's ok, but in this case i think we should remove the source too. do you want me to file a separate removal request for that?
<cjwatson> chrisccoulson: doesn't seem to buy us anything
<chrisccoulson> having it in the archive doesn't really align well to the new maintenance model of firefox
<cjwatson> chrisccoulson: feel free to discuss it with Caesar, but he explicitly requested keeping it and his name's in the Maintainer field so I gave his request primacy
<apw> pitti, yes it appears so ... he also suggested i made you aware that it is there and with the severity of the bugs we were looking to abreviate the SRU process as much as possible, hense the heads up :)
<cjwatson> chrisccoulson: I won't override that without his consent
<chrisccoulson> cjwatson - ok, i'll leave it for now. as long as he's around to port it every time we update firefox and xulrunner ;)
<cjwatson> chrisccoulson: but he hasn't uploaded it to use xulrunner yet
<cjwatson> chrisccoulson: so, right now, there's nothing to update
<chrisccoulson> that's true, but there will be at some point, assuming it's fixed in a SRU
<cjwatson> chrisccoulson: so I suggest discussing it with him in advance of such an SRU :-)
<chrisccoulson> i was just questioning whether that was worth doing at all, seeing as there isn't anything in the archive that uses it
<cjwatson> I don't consider myself qualified to make that judgement
<cjwatson> Andrew seems to think it's valuable
<slangasek> pitti: great, dropped :)
<pitti> bryceh: I now have a tested fix for bug 548891, I just attached a debdiff
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 548891 in xorg-server "keyboard input broken due to invalid keyboard variant set by VMWare installer" [Medium,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/548891
<pitti> bryceh: can/shall I just upload that to -proposed, or do you want to commit it to git first? (and perhaps add more changes)
<slangasek> RAOF, bryceh: is there still something that needs to be release-noted for bug #541511, or was that obsoleted by reverting the i8xx disablement patch?
<pitti> RAOF: ^
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 541511 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "MASTER: [i855] GPU lockup (apport-crash)" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/541511
<pitti> slangasek: (just parrotting) from what I understood, there are problems on i845/i855 either way, so I think we still need a release note
<slangasek> well, I need to know what to write, the bug log isn't very linear :)
<slangasek> pitti: there's already https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidLynx/ReleaseNotes#Intel%208xx%20X%20freezes/crashes
<pitti> slangasek: ah, this looks unspecific enough to still be true (also https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Bugs/Lucidi8xxFreezes)
<bens> Ubuntu 9.04 and up to 10.04 beta1-4GB RAM, 4GB Swap.  According to ps/top/free/vmstat/anythingelseicanthinkof, there is only 800MB of ram in use, but my swap is full and killing my system.  According to everything, I have 3.2GB ram free, and 3.2GB buffer/cache.  Any idea's?
<bens> Havne't tested with the daily build yet.
<xnox> bens, are you using 64bit Ubuntu?
<bens> either.
<bens> xnox, either x86 or x86_64
<bens> Though I'm currently experiencing the problem on 64
<xnox> =(
<bryceh> pitti, I'll queue it with a few other xorg-server patches
<bryceh> slangasek, yeah we still need something for the 8xx issues.  It's one of those bugs that we fix for 10 people, and then 10 others report the fix made it regress
<bryceh> slangasek, where is the draft of the release notes, I can do a quick review/copyedit for you
<slangasek> bryceh: the "Intel 8xx X freezes/crashes" you put there isn't already sufficient? Anyway, draft at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidLynx/ReleaseNotes, but please just put your draft text in the bug for copy-paste so we avoid lock contention
<pitti> bryceh: thanks
<bryceh> slangasek, I think that should suffice
<slangasek> bryceh: ok - would you mind closing the ubuntu-release-notes task then?
<TMKCodes> Is the GLX memory leak bug causing problems still?
<bryceh> slangasek, done
<bryceh> TMKCodes, this is for the issues involving freezes on 8xx
<slangasek> bryceh: ta!
<arand> I would like to hilight https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-karmic-swapfile .  Would I (as a non-attending-UDS non-member) simply register it for uds and see what happens?
<cjwatson> as a matter of policy, nobody not attending UDS should propose specs for UDS
<cjwatson> it doesn't work
<cjwatson> instead, send mail to a development mailing list and try to convince somebody to take it on
<cjwatson> otherwise you can easily get the situation where there's something at UDS that nobody's interested in discussing, which we don't want to happen
<JFo> arand, also not likely that anyone will be discussing karmic issues
<JFo> at least that is my impression
<JFo> since the UDS is for planning the next release (in this case Maverick)
<cjwatson> well, that's not really too relevant - that spec hasn't been implemented, so that's just a naming issue
<cjwatson> it's an old spec that ran into implementation issues
<JFo> ah
<JFo> I see, disregard then arand :)
<arand> JFo: cjwatson: Ok, will do.
<bryceh> pitti, slangasek, for doing an SRU of xorg-server, since we haven't begun meerkat, should I be numbering it as 2:1.7.6-2ubuntu7.1 or 2:1.7.6-2ubuntu8 ?
<slangasek> bryceh: I'm ok with -2ubuntu8 if it's expected to be copied over to meerkat once it's open
<kees> jcastro: why are only some of the sessions for the security track listed here: http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-m/track/security/ ?
<jcastro> kees, on a call, one sec
<jcastro> kees, when did you approve them? there's like a 10 minute delay
<Daviey> kees: which ones are missing?
<kees> jcastro: okay.  mon 15:00 and 17:10 are missing (and were approved a while ago)
<kees> jcastro: wait, approved?
<kees> jcastro: I need to flip it from "Discussion" to "Approved"?
<kees> that hasn't happened for any of mine yet, but most already show up.  whee
<kees> I thought "approved" so for after UDS
<kees> s/so/was/
<Daviey> kees: missing GPG key one?
<kees> Daviey: yup, and vmbuilder
<Daviey> interesting
* elmo changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: ** wiki.ubuntu.com will be down for emergency maintenance from 18:45 - 18:50 || Lucid release candidate is out! | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-karmic | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://w
* elmo changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Lucid release candidate is out! | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-karmic | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<bryceh> *boggle* why do people keep toggling the status on lp #565981 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 565981 in xorg-server "[KMS] gem objects not deallocated" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/565981
<bryceh> oh I see, seems to be a usability issue
<lifeless> bryceh: as in 'they are able to use lp' ? :)
<bryceh> lifeless, apparently not!
<Zomb> hello guys. I need a "sane" mirror that everybody should use as default location. To hardcode it as fall-back in apt-cacher-ng on Debian systems (because I cannot pick up the prefered mirror from sources.list there).
<jpds> Zomb: de.archive.ubuntu.com ?
<Zomb> Debian is using geodns for ftp.debian.org, what do you have?
<Zomb> jpds: worldwide please
<jpds> Zomb: We don't have anything like that.
<Zomb> well, ok. I will take the TLD related part from Debian mirror then (if found) and look whether it hosts Ubuntu too
<Zomb> or something like that, we will see
<soren> Well, archive.ubuntu.com is what debootstrap uses if you don't tell it otherwise.
<cjwatson> if you know the country code then you could use CC.archive.ubuntu.com for any CC
<cjwatson> it wildcards to the same as archive.ubuntu.com if there's no specific country mirror set
<Zomb> that's what I imagined
<Zomb> thanks
<cjwatson> jcastro: can I have planning access to the foundations track in summit?  I'm supposed to be organising it
<jcastro> cjwatson, done
<cjwatson> jcastro: thanks
<Keybuk> ion: so you know we've talked about states
<ion> Yeah
<Keybuk> and state environment being inherited into services
<Keybuk> and if a service has "while $SOMESTATE", and there's multiple instances of $SOMESTATE, you get multiple instances of the service
<Keybuk> I just had a moment when I realised the most fundamentally cool use
<Keybuk> consider the following three things:
<Keybuk>   while system
<Keybuk>   exec /sbin/unetwork
<Keybuk> --
<Keybuk>   while user
<Keybuk>   exec /usr/bin/ssh-agent   # has $USER
<Keybuk> --
<Keybuk>   while session
<Keybuk>   exec /usr/bin/gconf-daemon  # has $USER, $DISPLAY, etc.
<Keybuk> --
<ion> Nice
<Keybuk> and "user" can be implicit
<Keybuk> e.g. user.conf is
<Keybuk>   while session
<Keybuk>   instance $USER
<Keybuk> or whatever syntax we use for that
<Keybuk> so you only need to create sessions states, you get the user states for free
<Keybuk> and they get reused
<ion> Yeah
<Keybuk> not sure yet how to get the ssh-agent environment back into the session yet
<Keybuk> but I like this
<ion> shutdown/reboot -f attached to the system stateâs post-stop and e.g. âstop system SHUTDOWN_ACTION=rebootâ would bring down the system and reboot? :-)
<ion> s/^shutdown/poweroff/
<Keybuk> yes, probably
<Keybuk> stop user USER=sabdfl
<Keybuk> ;-)
<ion> :-)
<Keybuk> actually
<Keybuk> stop session USER=sabdfl SESSION_ID=...
<Keybuk> that'd be logout
<xnox> Keybuk, =)
<xnox> Keybuk, strange that got me a notification in xchat on "sabdfl" =))))
 * xnox didn't configure that
<ion> while-around session, env-import cmd where cmd prints âFOO=bar\nBAZ=quux\nâ?
<Keybuk> ion: I'd use #upstart for this if it wasn't for the systemd SPIES :p
<ion> :-D
<Keybuk> ion: the bit I can't quite work out ...
<Keybuk> last time I drew all this on paper
<Keybuk> udev fell out
<Keybuk> it doesn't seem to do anything anymore
<ion> Heh
<Aquina> What's up what did you destroy, Keybuk?
<Keybuk> devtmpfs does the device nodes, aclthingy does the acls, upstart does the RUN+= commands
<Aquina> :-)
<Keybuk> Aquina: every time we give the operating system a good shake, something falls out!
<ion> How about attaching information to devices, such as what the udevification of Xorg used to do before that data was moved to xorg.conf InputClass?
<Keybuk> HAL fell out of 10.04
<Keybuk> ion: isn't that just Upstart's environment attached to a state? :p
<svu> what is the official time of release? 00:00 GMT?
<ion> True :-)
<Nafai> Keybuk: I'm hoping these good shakes make the OS simpler :)
<Keybuk> svu: don't you start ;-)
<Keybuk> ion: I think Arjan must have slipped something into my beer at LFC
<Keybuk> because I now see his point that we just don't need udev
<ion> Heh
<svu> Keybuk, I think my question (in negavite form: "do not ask...") should be put into the topic ;)
<Keybuk> however I do need my pen, and it's gone walkies
<Aquina> I see
<Aquina> What is the actual replacement for hal? I can't imagine a system to work without it.
<Keybuk> ok, this is silly, where the frak is my pen?
<Keybuk> I had it minutes ago
<Keybuk> Aquina: udev ;)
<Keybuk> right, I have found my pen
<Keybuk> I had hung it on the lampshade
<Keybuk> seriously, I'm fucked up
<Aquina> hm... ok
<JanC> svu: the official time for release is: while it's 2010-04-29 in some place on Earth  ;)
<Aquina> It' here already 0:58 on 29.04.2010 :-)
#ubuntu-devel 2010-04-29
<svu> JanC, :) I feel sorry that Ubuntu does not have Jobs-like kharismatic person to make ANNOUNCES.
<Aquina> Oh yeah... rally!? :-)
<soren> Aquina: Yes, so within the next thirtysomething hours.
<Aquina> I think it was a bit less time between RC and final. Only a few days...
<JanC> you mean, somebody who publicly says his companie releases lots of crappy software?  ;-)
<JanC> company
<JanC> I doubt sabdfl wants to do that  :P
<svu> JanC, yes. But does that in style! :)
<xnox> oh it's release day =) forgot about that =)
<JanC> well, "day"
<JanC> "while it's 2010-04-29 in some place on Earth" spans almost 2 days  ;)
<Aquina> Am I the only person calculating to figure out whether these are 2 days or almost 2 days... :D
<Keybuk> it's more than 2 days
<Keybuk> 52 hours iirc
<svu> 51:59:59 I guess
<Keybuk> it's an illogical number due to daylight savings
<lifeless> also there are more than 24 time zones
<ajmitch> a shame I'm only on UTC+12 at the moment
<Keybuk> yeah, but you can end up with UTC+13 and UTC-13 depending on hemisphere ;)
<lifeless> more than
<lifeless> there is that weird little kink in the north pacific
<ajmitch> there's a +14, I think
<xnox> silly politics
<xnox> imho we relase in UTC
<lifeless> rawaki is +13 normally
<lifeless> and tonga
<Keybuk> xnox: your opinion is neither humble or correct ;-)
<lifeless> Kiritimati is +14
<lifeless> wikipedia ftw
 * xnox sticks his tongue out at Keybuk =) I can pretend whatever I want =)
<xnox> BTW I knew there is +13 but I never thought there is +14
<ajmitch> there are odd timezones like +13:45
 * ajmitch is glad that the NZ mirrors don't lag too far behind this week
 * jpds is glad that some NZ mirrors get pushed.
 * lifeless offers a Tool
<Aquina> Yeah +14 exists, but isn't the calculation 12+14+23=49hrs == max time of same weekday?
<lifeless> and hell, I'm in NZ now.
<lifeless> Aquina: 49:59:59
<ajmitch> lifeless: I'm sure you enjoy the blazing speeds to archive.ubuntu.com then
<Aquina> ah ok
<lifeless> ajmitch: it took me a day to update after crossing the tasman. OUCH.
<lifeless> ajmitch: OTOH I think telecom are doing some stupid shite
<ajmitch> that wouldn't surprise me
<lifeless>  not my phone line, sadly
<lifeless> so I can't really dig in deeply to fix
<imbrandon> dont the ISP's down there run their own mirrors too mostly ?
<ajmitch> yes, which is why I was glad that they're not too far behind, sometimes they've been out of date by a few days
<zul> aussies and kiwis are weird
<imbrandon> ajmitch, ouch
<ajmitch> says the canadian
<lifeless> ajmitch: do you know why they have been that out of date?
<imbrandon> their has to be a way to my my gnome-xchat ignore joins/parts when its running on my irssi proxy ....
<ajmitch> lifeless: no I don't, someone was talking about it in #ubuntu-nz recently though
<imbrandon> ajmitch, yea i rember TheMuso saying something along those lines, i think thats one reason he runs a local mirror
<imbrandon> iirc
<lifeless> imbrandon: themuso is in .au, totally different internet landscape
<imbrandon> yea but much of the same fundimental issues as far as limited bandwidth accross the ocean and such isnt it
<TheMuso> imbrandon: Yeah that, and distro development is easier when you have the most recent published packages, so I have less breakage during the day when I need to test/update/test build something.
<imbrandon> ahh right because bandwidth is cheaper at off peak hours or something like there isnt it
<imbrandon> ( when you mirror )
<TheMuso> Depends on the ISP you are with. Some offer off peak quotas, and some don't. I don't like off peak quotas myself.
<imbrandon> yea always seemed kinda wonky to me too, but i like in the US so its QUITE diffrent here than alot of the world ( for better or worse )
<imbrandon> s/like/live
<mdeslaur> Nafai: it's really curious that you can't reproduce bug #570809...I wonder what I could be doing different
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570809 in netbook-launcher "Favorites displays application short names" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570809
<Nafai> mdeslaur: yeah, that is curious.  I did this all in KVM, but I can't imagine this would be any different
<Nafai> mdeslaur: What language/locale are you using?
<mdeslaur> Nafai: let me try again on an hp mini
<mdeslaur> Nafai: well, the live cd doesn't ask for a language/locale
<Nafai> right
<Nafai> just grasping for what might be different ;)
<mdeslaur> Nafai: When I install, I chose en_CA
<mdeslaur> Nafai: but, let me try the live cd again, just a sec
<Nafai> I installed as en_US, but I can't imagine that would be different
<mdeslaur> Nafai: so, I just booted the live cd, let the default language selected as "English", clicked the "try" button and it booted the desktop with the favorites menu open
<mdeslaur> Nafai: In the favorites menu, I've got "Firefox Web Browser", which is okay
<mdeslaur> Nafai: but I also have "Evolution", "Cheese", "Empathy"
 * Nafai scratches head
 * Nafai tries something
<Aquina> Is firefox 3.5 faster (+less memory footprint) vs. 3.0.19?
<micahg> Aquina: yes
<Aquina> ah fine so they must have heard what I wrote at the mozilla zine commentary section. :-))
<micahg> Aquina: ?
<Aquina> Ah.. I complained about always implementing features instead of making that thing more stable and less bloated.
<micahg> Aquina: we have a PPA with Firefox 3.6 as well
<micahg> Aquina: and 3.6 is in Lucid
<Aquina> I also argued (some) corps move to propreatary stuff like Opera and thelike.
<Aquina> oh yes 3.6 I ment. I use hardy though and upgrade is not faar anymore...
<Aquina> ...at least when I have tested the upgrade procedures on ubuntu QA.
<Nafai> mdeslaur: Which launcher is being run?  netbook-launcher-efl or netbook-launcher?
<RAOF> mdeslaur, Nafai: I also see that behaviour, with an en_AU locale.
<Nafai> RAOF: strange :(
<Nafai> Perhaps I should boot the live cd on my spare machine here
<mdeslaur> Nafai: it's netbook-launcher
<Nafai> ok, that helps
<Nafai> I need to run to dinner, but I'll take a look later
<Nafai> RAOF: Could you add an "me too" on bug #570809
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570809 in netbook-launcher "Favorites displays application short names" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570809
<RAOF> Off the top of my head, I'd guess that there's something wrong with the X-GNOME-FullName handling.
<Nafai> RAOF: Along with which launcher is being run.
<Nafai> Yeah, maybe this is something for didrocks to look into and guide me on, because I know nothing about that yet :)
<Nafai> mdeslaur: thanks for the report, hopefully we can figure it out soon.
<mdeslaur> Nafai: ok, cool. Hope you'll be able to reproduce it! :)
<mathiaz> lool: hey - could you update the release note from bug 423252?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 423252 in sudo "NSS using LDAP+SSL breaks setuid applications like su and sudo" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/423252
<fabiobik> how to solve my problem? when i try to boot from the lastest kernel the pc restart. if i try to boot from the oldest version i can see the ubuntu logo but not the login screen!
<fabiobik> ive updated from 9.10 version
<ScottK> fabiobik: Help for Lucid is in #ubuntu+1.
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> bryceh: confirmed, ubuntu8 is okay since we'll pocket-copy it to meerkat anyway
<bryceh> pitti, great
<bryceh> pitti, btw, sarvatt noticed that we've not been getting apport crash reports for xserver, except for binary drivers
<pitti> kees, mdeslaur: so you guys moved postgresql to security after all?
<bryceh> pitti, looking back, we've not gotten reports except against nvidia/fglrx/vbox since 2:1.7.3.902-1ubuntu10 in early Feb, when the rethrow signals patch was re-enabled
<pitti> bryceh: I think mvo noticed the same indeed :/ so that seems to be real
<bryceh> something to work on for meerkat I guess
<pitti> kees, mdeslaur, jdstrand: it requires an authenticated attacker who also has the privilege to create and use new functions, and if you have that, you can screw over the server anyway
<pitti> slangasek, cjwatson, jdong, ScottK: FYI, I just switched queuediff and sru-accept to default to lucid
<ScottK> Thanks.
<jdong> cool, thanks
<slangasek> oh, that means I didn't commit my changes, oops :)
<pitti> jdong: FYI, I caught up with all bug mail, and there are only two bugs left which need sponsoring; the rest is uploaded to the queue
<pitti> jdong: (in case you want to delete your current load of SRU bug mail :) )
<jdong> pitti: ok awesome! I've been falling a bit behind this week :)
<pitti> jdong: perhaps instead of a "needs attention" tag we need to have a landmark "all SRU mail until <date> were processed" :)
<jdong> pitti: hehehe that would be nice too :)
<jdong> pitti: kinda like a google reader for SRU!
<jdong> </nonfree idea of the day>
<pitti> jdong: I'll do the bulk of queue review now, but I also uploaded a few myself (which I can't process)
<pitti> heh
<pitti> jdong: we need cross-user offlineimap syncing
<jdong> ooooh now that sounds like a good idea :)
<pitti> actually, maybe this isn't such a crazy idea after all
<jdong> even just a meta-sru-team IMAP account would do that
<ccheney> anyone have issues with a memory leak under ubuntu gnome?
<ccheney> i haven't determined whats causing it yet, but it seemed to be leaking a lot for me, had nearly filled my swap and actual ram with nothing running, logged out and back in, relaunched all my usual apps and only have about 800MB ram used and no swap
<ccheney> i saw someone earlier today complaining on the channel about what sounded similar to that
<ccheney> if it happens again i'll try to grab a process list with memory information and then log out and compare on a fresh login
<ion> I might have something similar. Iâm running fglrx in case that matters.
<RAOF> ccheney: It's not the gem leak?
<ion> Subjectively the memory usage seems much higher than weeks (or something) ago.
<ccheney> RAOF: hmm? maybe is there info about that?
<ccheney> RAOF: if X was leaking that would certainly make sense since i closed all major apps and it didn't release the memory until I actually logged out
<RAOF> ccheney: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Testing/GEMLeak - but if you're up to date you should be running xserver-xorg-core 2:1.7.6-2ubuntu7, which should not leak in that way.
<ccheney> RAOF: i don't log out that often so it might have been from the previous version
<ccheney> my uptime is 11 days on my laptop so i might have not logged out since before 2:1.7.6-2ubuntu7 was released
<RAOF> ion: You'd be seeing something else; maybe it's evolution+evolution-data-server tempting the OOM killer? :)
<ccheney> perhaps i should reboot to make sure i am completely up to date :)
<RAOF> ccheney: I'm pretty sure there's been a kernel upgrade in th elast 11 days, at least :)
<ccheney> RAOF: yea i think so too
<ion> raof: Nope, no evolution problem. Total memory usage is 1503 MB at the moment. The huge memory devourers are Firefox with a resident size of 220 MB, X.org with 210 MB and Vuze with 151 MB. The next worse process has only allocated 28 MB. Iâd have to actually sum the amount of memory allocated by all processes, but it seems 1.5 gigabytes might be considerably more. I havenât got around to investigating any further than this.
<ion> The first thing i probably should do would be to try with the free radeon driver.
 * ccheney finished rebooting finally, fsck ran ugh
<ccheney> RAOF: thanks for the information about the gem issue :)
<pitti> ccheney: wow, your machine lasted 11 days with this bug?
 * pitti usually had to reboot after 6 hours
<pitti> probably due to all the graphics intensive applications that I run
<pitti> 4 gnome-terminals in parallel want their share!
<ccheney> pitti: well i don't know for sure how long i had been logged in but it was for a while
<ccheney> pitti: i am on x4500 so it might not have been as bad as for some
<TheMuso> pitti: Don't tell me you don't use tabs..
<ccheney> only 71MB now, not sure what it was before, heh
<pitti> TheMuso: I do, why? :-)
<TheMuso> You said 4 terminals. I thought you meant separate windows. :)
<ion> Whatâs wrong with separate windows?
<pitti> TheMuso: it's still four separate windows, since I also like them to be side by side; and I have mutt running on another desktop
<TheMuso> pitti: ah ok
<TheMuso> Oh nothing.
<TheMuso> To each their own. I have 6 terminals as tabs in one window and IRC in another window, so that tab switching doesn't clash with irssi's shortcuts for the first 10 windows.
<TheMuso> s/10/19/
<Keybuk> I have only terminals as separate windows
<Keybuk> one above the other
<Keybuk> the other half of the screen is a vertically maximised emacs window
<ion> If i were to use a single maximized terminal window, its dimensions would be 274 columns by 76 lines. Thatâs a bit excessive. I find splitting the screen to multiple windows more useful. :-)
 * ccheney has a terminal with screen running for 4 irc connections and a few other terminals for work
 * hyperair always has byobu running.
<ccheney> when doing builds i login to my real system (non-laptop) and run screen on it instead of tabs, so never really use tabs for terminals
<hyperair> and irssi starts up with byobu
<hyperair> screen++
<Keybuk> what we really need is just a display engine that writes to the frame buffer
<Keybuk> displays near-full screen vtes
<Keybuk> with tabs along the top
<Keybuk> and a button that lets you make a new vte tag
<Keybuk> and a button that lets you make a new webkit tab
 * Keybuk designs FUTURE UI
<hyperair> tabs waste space.
<RAOF> None of this messy X stuff!
<ion> keybuk: Add splitting the display to tiles and you have the basic tiling window manager. :-)
<hyperair> just open a vt and run byobu. problem solved. =D
<Keybuk> ion: there's a window manager just like that for X
 * Keybuk can't remember what it's called
<Keybuk> ion: any ideas?
<Keybuk> ion: ever heard of it?
<dholbach> good morning
<ajmitch> morning dholbach
<ion> I used to use it, but then it became nonfree. :-P
<dholbach> hey ajmitch
<pitti> jdong: if you have a minute, do you think you can review bug 562418 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 562418 in pkg-create-dbgsym "empty ddebs when dh_strip is called twice" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/562418
<jdong> pitti: sure
<pitti> jdong: I'd really like to have this in -proposed/-updates soon, so that we get good ddebs as soon as we accept xorg
<ajmitch> pitti: for a fix that'll go into -proposed that I'm sponsoring, keep the original person in the changelog, right?
<pitti> ajmitch: sure, as usual
<jdong> pitti: looked reasonable to me, ACKed :)
<pitti> jdong: cheers
<ajmitch> pitti: ok, will push a libsdl1.2 SRU soon then :)
<ScottK> pitti: I'll have a clamav SRU soon too, but the Debian changes in their next upload aren't quite doing what I'm expecting, so I need to try to talk to sgran about it.  Unfortunately, I'm 3 hours further west than usual.
<jdstrand> pitti: just passing through before bed, but if I create a user and db like so: createuser -DRS foo ; createdb -O foo foo_db ; then I can connect as 'foo' to the 'foo_db' database and use the following to crash the server 'select substring(B'10101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101',33,-15);'
<ion> Computers hate binary.
<jdstrand> pitti: that seemed like a not so uncommon setup, so we decided to fix it
<pitti> jdstrand: ok; it seemed a bit borderline to me
<jdstrand> pitti: well, *you* fixed it, we decided to republish
<jdstrand> pitti: we debated internally and thought better safe than sorry since the update was so lovingly prepared by you already :)
<pitti> heh
<jdstrand> it wasn't hard to imagine it snowballing if a crappy web app didn't filter its SQL
<jdstrand> anyhoo, off to bed
<pitti> sleep well!
<jdstrand> thanks! :)
<aburch> Hi, is there someone to poke to get a backport approved?  Currently simutrans from karmic-backports is uninstallable due to a versioned dependency on a newer version of simutrans-pak64 (LP #550880)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 550880 in karmic-backports "Please backport simutrans-pak64/102.2.2-1 from Lucid" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/550880
<ScottK> Looking
<ScottK> aburch: Did you test that your propose backport works?
<ScottK> jdong: You approved the simutrans backport.  Would you please follow-up with getting it fixed?
<aburch> ScottK: The PPA used for testing the simutrans backport did also include simutrans-pak64 which is why it was successfully tested at all (see LP #538897).
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 538897 in karmic-backports "Backport simutrans from Lucid" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/538897
<ScottK> OK.
<ScottK> jdstrand: Would you have a moment to process the backport in 550880 to fix an installability problem in backports?
<pitti> jdong: I'm not done yet with the current queue, but I'll run out for an hour and continue then; I have some uploads in the queue (gdm, gvfs, gnome-keyring, totem) which need to be processed by someone else, I'll review the rest (feel free to purge your bug mail again from all the "plz test" stuff :) )
<pitti> jdong: gdm is debatable, the other three should be harmless
<hrw> morning
<hrw> are there any plans to have also debian-installer way of installing (so lvm/raid/crypto) available on normal ubuntu cd?
<stefanlsd>  #ubuntu-motu
<stefanlsd> bleh :)
<cjwatson> hrw: not by way of putting d-i on it, but I do have plans to get raid/lvm/crypto support into ubiquity - just haven't yet had time to execute on them
 * ogra_cmpc would love to have an in RAM mode for the live image that implements something similar to d-i netinst (install to the device you booted the installer from)
<ogra_cmpc> indeed that would require a lot of ram
<hrw> cjwatson: I just did installation on my new laptop only to find out that I have to erase all and start from scratch
<hrw> cjwatson: I want: /boot + crypto->lvm (rootfs, swap, /home, second rootfs) + 8MB vfat
<hrw> cjwatson: I thought that I did such setup in d-i but it rebooted straight to desktop...
<hrw> cjwatson: and I have such scheme on my old machine and found it great to use
 * ogra_cmpc always wondered why people encrypt /
<hrw> ogra_cmpc: wifi passwords?
<hrw> vpn passwords?
<joaopinto> aren't those on your user's keyring :P ?
<ogra_cmpc> isnt that all stuff stored in your home nowadays ?
<ogra_cmpc> heh, joaopinto beats me
<hrw> not on my systems
<joaopinto> ah, you are not using NM
<hrw> yep
<hrw> plain wpa-supplicant is enough for wifi
<hrw> plain openvpn for vpns
<hrw> and many times I land on text console instead of x11
<ogra_cmpc> still a lot of hassle to encrypt the whole / for two passwords
<hrw> ogra_cmpc: a lot? Debian does it in invisible way - just one pass on system start
<hrw> and I have everything which my linux uses encrypted. only /boot/ is plain (and small vfat partition for bios flashers if I do such one)
 * YokoZar wonders if his wine1.0 package will get in so he can rebuild dssi-vst
<hyperair> say...
<hyperair> "Configuring Checkbox" Default enabled.
<hyperair> exactly what is this checkbox?
<hyperair> hmm it's a package!
<hyperair> =O
<hyperair> i thought it was a checkbox that my terminal wasn't displaying for some reason or other.
<ogra_cmpc> formerly it was called the hardware database client ... nowadays its a full QA tool
<hyperair> cool
<hrw> what is a name of alternate-cd install in launchpad? I want to report bugs
<cjwatson> hrw: debian-installer package in Ubuntu
<ogra_cmpc> hrw, attach patches too ;)
<hrw> ogra_cmpc: first need to reinstall ubuntu in really my way
<hrw> and I cant make it remotely due to lack of ethernet driver
<ogra_cmpc> oh, what kind of card is that for which we dont have a driver ?
<ogra_cmpc> x86 should surely support the majority
<cjwatson> note that sometimes it's just that the udebs generated by the linux source package for use in the installer don't contain some driver or other
<cjwatson> those kinds of bugs would be straightforward to fix for 10.04.1
<ogra_cmpc> cjwatson, yeah, i seem to have that issue on omap
<hrw> ogra_cmpc: atl1c
<hrw> there are atl1 and atl1e in installer
<ogra_cmpc> (sadly didnt catch it since my USb NICs are both supported by default)
<hyperair> i think.... that initramfs-tools is broken.
<hyperair> update-initramfs complains of a missing file /scripts/functions
<hyperair> it sounds like it should be checking in /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/functions instead.
<cjwatson> no ...
<cjwatson> it'll be more subtle than that
<hyperair> hmm?
<cjwatson> /scripts/functions is normally what those scripts *should* be sourcing (that's the path when the initramfs is actually running) - the problem will probably be that it's sourcing /scripts/functions at all when invoked only to determine script ordering
<hyperair> wait, so if it's supposed to be running while initramfs is actually running, then why does upadte-initramfs call these?
<cjwatson> to determine script ordering
<cjwatson> hyperair: if you can put 'set -x' on the second line of /usr/sbin/mkinitramfs, rerun, and show me the output, I can work out where the problem is
<hyperair> gimme a moment, let me try running update-initramfs manually.
<cjwatson> hrw: that's bug 557130
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 557130 in linux "Kernel module atl1c missing from installer image" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/557130
<hrw> cjwatson: thx
<hrw> have to learn launchpad bugtracking
<hyperair> cjwatson: it's /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/init-bottom/_apparmor.
<ogra_cmpc> underscore ?
<hyperair> cjwatson: is it supposed to chroot?
<hyperair> cjwatson: also, all my initrds fail to generate
<hyperair> oh wait, i read the message wrongly
<cjwatson> hyperair: could I please have the unedited log?
<pitti> ArneGoetje, dpm: the jaunty-proposed langpacks (1:9.04+20090921) have been in -proposed for 218 days now; are they ok and should be moved to -updates, or should we delete them from -proposed? (I think we should stop providing langpack updates for jaunty, too)
<maxb> bryceh: I've just stumbled across ubuntu-wilson. Amazing! You rock! :-)
<soren> I have a filesystem with this "tune2fs -l" output: http://paste.ubuntu.com/424494/   It's just been rebooted, and I don't understand why it's not being fsck'ed.
<wira_> so, when ubuntu lucid final would be released?
<ogra_cmpc> wira_, ask in #ubuntu-release-party :)
<wira_> ogra_cmpc, wow, thx
<dpm> hey pitti good morning and happy release day ;), let me ask translators after the release, upload only those for which there has been feedback in a couple of days, and discard the rest. How does that sound? Calls for testing are still not working well, and even though we talked about it at the UDS in BCN, there hasn't been much change. A community member registered a session for it, and I'm leaning towards on-demand updates more and more. I'd like to di
<dpm> scuss it there one and for all, and it'd be good to have someone from the release team there. Considering you've been doing the uploads until now and that you're the one that best understands langpacks, may I ask you to subscribe and participate in the session?
<dpm> Here's the BP: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/fixed-schedule-for-translation-updates/
<dpm> ArneGoetje, ^
<pitti> dpm: can do
<pitti> dpm: selective -updates sounds good
<dpm> thanks pitti
<cjwatson> superm1,Daviey,mr_pouit: we're respinning the Ubuntu desktop CDs for bug 570765 and doing emergency revalidation.  You have the option of doing the same for Mythbuntu/Xubuntu if you choose (Edubuntu has already chosen to do so; Kubuntu and Ubuntu Studio are unaffected), and if you can get revalidation within at most a reasonable delay time.  Speak now?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570765 in ubiquity "[Lucid] no GRUB menu entry for other operating systems" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570765
<cjwatson> (or forever hold your peace etc. ...)
<cjwatson> superm1,Daviey,mr_pouit: if you choose to respin, you'll have the option of taking either the current validated image or the new one
<darius_> Does packages.ubuntu.com track the compile options used for an Ubuntu package?
<cjwatson> darius_: no, 'apt-get source <package>' and look in debian/rules
<darius_> cjwatson: thanks
<Riddell> cjwatson: what makes Kubuntu unaffected by the grub issue?
<cjwatson> Riddell: no migration-assistant
<Riddell> ok thanks
<cjwatson> the bug is that migration-assistant accidentally left a filesystem mounted in the installer filesystem namespace, which meant that os-prober running chrooted to /target was unable to bind-mount it
<cjwatson> or at least such is the current diagnosis
<tkamppeter> pitti, hi
<pitti> hello tkamppeter
<tkamppeter> I have a problem with compiling. When building Ghostscript I got this: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/424510/
<tkamppeter> pitti, the file was not affected by recent changes and compiling Ghostscript on another Lucid box works perfectly.
<pitti> urgh, WTH
<tkamppeter> The problem occurs on my 64-bit laptop and does not occur on my 32-bit laptop, both up-to-date Lucid.
<pitti> I've never seen an error like that, I'm afraid
<tkamppeter> pitti, who could be of help here?
<pitti> tkamppeter: not sure; perhaps try googling this error first?
<hrw> plymouth nicely integrates with cryptolvm question - good job
<slangasek> hrw: thanks :)
<hrw> slangasek: you welcome
<nigelbabu> ogra: did you get a mailto for the magazine?
<nigelbabu> http://www.chip.de/cxo/b2b_artikel_10981369.html might help
<ogra> nigelbabu, TA
<nigelbabu> :)
<ajmitch> hopefully they can be firmly convinced not to prematurely post URLs :)
<ogra> they didnt post urls
<ogra> thats the bad part
<ogra> they mirrored the iso to their own server
<ajmitch> ugh
 * ajmitch was just reading along in -release, I hadn't spotted that they were copies on their server
<Brimstones> After i bring down an OpenVPN client tunnel Networkmanager lands in a state where its not connected, but doesnt seem to know about its state. Clicking it and then eth0 the connection goes online again. Is there a tool to tell NetworkManager to reinitiate its connections ?
<Brimstones> nm-online , nm-tool and nmcli doesnt seem to be able to do so...
<Brimstones> .
<Brimstones> Heeelp! :)
<MarcSpitz> Hi, does someone know how indicator-applet really works and could therefore answer a question i've been asking myself for some hours..
<cjwatson> hyperair: did you get that initramfs log?
<hyperair> cjwatson: sorry, i was asleep. i just woke up
<cjwatson> ah
<hyperair> cjwatson: i've got a screen backlog of it though. let me just dump it out...
<hyperair> now how do i do that with screen without going into select mode and copying everything out?
<hyperair> nevermind i figured ito ut
<jdstrand> bryceh: hi! so I am trying to get a bt following X/Backtracing with no luck
<jdstrand> bryceh: this is for bug #571552
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 571552 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "X crashes with 32M radeon 7500 +kms with firefox and flash" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/571552
 * hyperair kicks pastebinit for moving slowly
<cjwatson> hyperair: I'd have thought 2>file would be easier :)
<cjwatson> or >file 2>&1
<hyperair> cjwatson: then i'd have to run the whole thing again.
<jdstrand> bryceh: part of the problem is likely I have things like: warning: the debug information found in "/usr/lib/debug/usr/lib/dri/radeon_dri.so" does not match "/usr/lib/dri/radeon_dri.so" (CRC mismatch).
<cjwatson> hyperair: takes about a minute right? :)
<hyperair> cjwatson: eh i'm not sure. quite long.
<cjwatson> I don't see why it would take significantly longer than that
<hyperair> it tries to generate each initramfs, fails, and then returns
<seb128> jdstrand, did you install the -dbg or -dbgsym for it?
<jdstrand> bryceh: even though the -dbg version matches the regular package
<jdstrand> seb128: yes
<seb128> jdstrand, it was a "or" question, "yes" is not a reply ;-)
<jdstrand> xserver-xorg-video-ati: 1:6.13.0-1ubuntu5
<jdstrand> xserver-xorg-video-ati-dbg: 1:6.13.0-1ubuntu5
<hyperair> cjwatson: because i'm still halfway upgrading and dpkg is taking all my i/o
<jdstrand> seb128: -dbg
<pitti> jdstrand: could have been a victim of bug 562418?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 562418 in pkg-create-dbgsym "empty ddebs when dh_strip is called twice" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/562418
<seb128> jdstrand, this .so is not in that binary too btw, dlocale radeon_dri.so
<seb128> jdstrand, try with the -dbgsym, it should be working, cf bug pitti pointed just now
<pitti> jdstrand: although this bug is a problem of xorg-server; unless mesa is also double-dh_strip'ing, it's a different problem
<jdstrand> seb128: I also have the libgl1-mesa-dri and libgl1-mesa-dri-dbg packages installed
<jdstrand> I'll try with dbgsym
<pitti> lamont: is pkg-create-dbgsym pinned as well in the buildd chroots, or does it just auto-upgrade? I recently uploaded a newer version to lucid-proposed to fix ddeb generation in some cases, and wonder if I/you need to do anything special now
<pitti> apw: FYI, I just binNEWed linux-proposed kernel
<pitti> apachelogger: erm, lucid-proposed of course
<pitti> ok, let's try that again
<pitti> apachelogger: sorry
<lamont>                         # manual upgrades only for pkgbinarymanagler, until slangasek says otherwise
<lamont>                         echo "echo pkgbinarymangler hold | dpkg --set-selections || true"
<lamont> pitti: ^^
<hyperair> cjwatson: http://people.ubuntu.com/~hyperair/initramfslog
<pitti> apw: I binNEWed lbm now, linux went through in the morning
<pitti> apw: so the way is free for -meta
<pitti> lamont: thanks
<lamont> I suspect that we may decide that package has been in the dog house for long enough, come maverick
<lamont> and unhold it, too.
<pitti> lamont: so pkg-create-dbgsym should Just Work?
<lamont> but that's a post-release discussion
<lamont> yeah
<pitti> lamont: thanks
<ogra> post-release ? post-release is pre-release !
<lamont> just you know, don't make me get deal with an emergency bootstrap need during non-core
<lamont> because then I get cranky and throw great big roadblocks in your package's way
<lamont> ogra: not until I upload chroot tarballs, it's not. :-p
<ogra> heh
<lamont> pitti: I think it was more the nature of the first failure and the time before the next failure that triggered my BOFH response in pkgbinarymangler's case.
<pitti> lamont: oh, that was entirely plausible; I wasn't criticizing, I just wasn't sure if it applied to that other Bloody Hack From Hell, aka pkg-create-dbgsym, as well :)
<lamont> while I certainly can't yell at people for not fully testing every upload with any degree of guiltless ire, please at least don't get caught on not testing critical packages
<pitti> lamont: unlike pkgbinarymangler, p-c-d actually has a test suite, though
<lamont> this is a good thing.  hopefully run during debian/rules build, too
<cjwatson> hyperair: seems empty
<hyperair> cjwatson: scroll downn..
<pitti> apw: ah, seems you actually beat me to it :) accepted
<pitti> lamont: yes, and FTBFSing if it fails
<lamont> \o/
<cjwatson> oh, urgh, ok
<ogra> heh
<ogra> thats a lot of nothing
<hyperair> cjwatson: sorry for the blank space. i'll reupload
 * lamont briefly considers prepending every buildlog with 1000 blank lines.  then decides that maybe he might be a bit off his meds today
<cjwatson> hyperair: you sure you have the newest cryptsetup installed?
<superm1> cjwatson, well migration assistant is actually disabled by the mythbuntu ubiquity plugins, so i would say not worthwhile for a respin on mythbuntu
<hyperair> cjwatson: umm.... like i said, it was halfway through upgrade..
<hyperair> cjwatson: update-initramfs looked like it was getting called a few times.
<hyperair> cjwatson: once for apparmor, once for cryptsetup, once for lvm....
<hyperair> cjwatson: yeah something along that line.
<hyperair> i think there was the plymouth or whatever thing
<Daviey> superm1: Equally, i don't think our users are likely to be dual booting - unlike Ubuntu, perhaps i'm wrong.
<cjwatson> cryptsetup looks like it'll be fine once you get it fully upgraded
<hyperair> cjwatson: lemme try again then
<cjwatson> that apparmor script is gone in lucid
<jdstrand> *sigh*
<hyperair> cjwatson: it causes upgrade failures, by the way. or maybe something else is breaking..
<cjwatson> and I think that accounts for the two errors you see
<cjwatson> no it doesn't
<hyperair> cjwatson: my apparmor script is still lying around.
<cjwatson> something else may do
<jdstrand> I can't get anything useful. apport won't catch it, I can't get a core file, nothing
<jdstrand> I clearly stink at debugging X crashes
<cjwatson> update-initramfs is exiting successfully in your log; it is not the cause of your failures
<jdstrand> pitti, seb128: I'm sorry, can you think of anything obvious I might be missing?
<hyperair> cjwatson: ah right. okay
<hyperair> *groans*
<hyperair> this is the hardest failed upgrade i've had to fix so far.
<seb128> jdstrand, ssh in the box attach gdb to xorg, "continue" wait for the crash, get a stacktrace?
<jdstrand> seb128: that is what I am doing
<seb128> what is not working then?
<sebner> hyperair: that's why I upgrade 1 week after release and then do a fresh-install 6 months later _Ã
<sebner> :P
<hyperair> sebner: i'm planning to see how long i can stave off a fresh install.
<jdstrand> seb128: bt is cruddy
<hyperair> Current status: 0 broken [-1], 28143 new [-5]. \o/
<jdstrand> (gdb) bt full
<jdstrand> #0  __memcpy_ia32 () at ../sysdeps/i386/i686/multiarch/../memcpy.S:75
<jdstrand> No locals.
<jdstrand> #1  0x00000000 in ?? ()
<jdstrand> No symbol table info available.
<seb128> urg
<seb128> sorry no clue about how to get better ones in such cases
<sebner> hychen: well, my system boots in ~65 seconds, If I do a fresh-install ~20 seconds so ..
<seb128> out of running the binary under valgrind
<seb128> which is sort of challing on xorg for different reasons
<hyperair> sebner: i don't believe you can fresh-install in 20 secs
<jdstrand> well, X managed to get something more useful in http://launchpadlibrarian.net/46157466/XorgLogOld.txt
<seb128> ie slowness and valgrind will not run setuid binaries
<hyperair> hmm
<cjwatson> stave off a fresh install> no reason it shouldn't be forever
<seb128> jdstrand, do you have apport enabled?
<seb128> it's not by default
<hyperair> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/gir1.0-clutter-1.0_1.2.4-0ubuntu1_amd64.deb (--unpack): trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/girepository-1.0/ClutterJson-1.0.typelib', which is also in package libclutter-1.0-0 0:1.2.6-0ubuntu1~9.10~ricotz1
<jdstrand> seb128: I tried with and without
<hyperair> hmmmm
<jdstrand> seb128: nothing in /var/crash
<seb128> not sure if you can tell xorg to not catch the crash
<seb128> ask on #ubuntu-x maybe about it
<tkamppeter> pitti, I googled for "undefined reference to `__libc_csu_fini'" but not the slightest chance, people posted the problem, but no one solved it.
<seb128> otherwise next advice would be to rebuild xorg locally with DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=nopt,nostrip and get a new stacktrace in the xorg log
<jdstrand> seb128: well, there is 'Untrap signals' in X/Backtracing which I did (ie, use "NoTrapSignals" "true"
<jdstrand> )
<jdstrand> right
 * jdstrand tries building own packages
<didrocks> kirkland: hey, do you have some recipe for someone who forgot is wrapped passphrase in encrypted home (but still got his user password) and wanting to do a reinstall of his system? Should he choose "encrypted home" in ubiquity still, what's the steps?
<RedNifre_backup> This is a fake channel! :D
<hyperair> RedNifre_backup: you're a fake person.
<pitti> didrocks: run ecryptfs-unwrap-passphrase
<RedNifre_backup> So where can I find current updates on the developement progress?
<deathbysushi> hey all, just wanted to ask a quick q, if i wanted to get involved, is the MOTU the first place I should get involved?
<didrocks> pitti: ok, but should I choose again "encrypted home" as next installation and it will ask me for my passphrase?
<cjwatson> IRC is for discussion, not for an update stream.  We recommend patience
<pitti> didrocks: I don't think it'll touch an existing /home at all, unless you reformat the partition of course
<stefanlsd> didrocks: not an expert, but it also depends on where they are upgrading from
<pitti> didrocks: but interesting question, I don't know (since it would require you at least to use the same password)
<stefanlsd> didrocks: ie. karmic did things diffeent
<stefanlsd> didrocks: there was a blog post, let me find it
<didrocks> pitti: ok, so, If I choose the same password, it should be safe, and need manual tweaking if I want to choose a different one (I'll write that somewhere as a thing to inspect/work on for maverick)
<didrocks> stefanlsd: right, I'm talking about lucid - lucid there :)
<didrocks> stefanlsd: so, all with the "new" structure
<pitti> didrocks: well, note that I didn't test that; I assume that it uses the plaintext password for wrapping the ecryptfs passphrase
<pitti> didrocks: and in fact it's not just "assume" but also "remember", but still don't take it for granted, please, and do an ecryptfs-unwrap-passphrase first, to avoid data loss
<didrocks> pitti: I guess it it, I'll wrote the passphrase down in any case and do the needful backup. Nice testcase :)
<didrocks> pitti: sure, thanks :)
<hyperair> deathbysushi: nice nick ;-)
<stefanlsd> didrocks: as far as i know, everything previous karmic was in /var (which caused problems), now it should be in /home  .(something)
<pitti> didrocks: yes, indeed that's interesting to test
<pitti> didrocks: once kirkland wakes up, he'll LART me appropriately, I figure :)
<hyperair> stefanlsd: what was in /var?
<superm1> Daviey, i agree with you, and we haven't gotten any complaints yet
<didrocks> pitti: hehe, thanks for the notice.
<didrocks> stefanlsd: yeah, I'm aware of that. I'm just interest in lucid - lucid tests for now (and for post lucid consequently)
<stefanlsd> hyperair: the ecryptfs directory. Now its /home/.ecrypfs/$USER i think
<stefanlsd> hyperair: i logged this a while back. bug #405997
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 405997 in ecryptfs-utils "Karmic install renders Jaunty encrypted /home directory unusable" [High,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/405997
<hyperair> stefanlsd: aah ecryptfs.
<MarcSpitz> I'm stuck trying to change indicator-applet's behaviour, can someone help me ?
<MarcSpitz> didrocks: hi :)
<didrocks> MarcSpitz: hey
<hyperair> MarcSpitz: add tooltips!
<MarcSpitz> hyperair: sorry ? what do you mean ?
<hyperair> MarcSpitz: eh you haven't heard the ruckus about indicator-application not having tooltips?
<kirkland> didrocks: hiya
<didrocks> kirkland: hey :)
<kirkland> didrocks: tell me more about what you're doing ...
<kirkland> didrocks: ah, i see pitti answered
<MarcSpitz> hyperair: no, I didn't :s
<kirkland> didrocks: let me read pitti's response
<didrocks> kirkland: ok :)
<MarcSpitz> my goal is changing the label displayed on the panel. I managed to set it back to my real name in  < Karmic but I can't manage to do it again in Lucid (indicator-applet 3.6)
<kirkland> didrocks: so is your /home on its own partition or something?
<didrocks> kirkland: right
<kirkland> didrocks: i'm going to test in a vm now
<kirkland> didrocks: but off the top of my head ....
<kirkland> didrocks: if you select just "use my passphrase" to login, (ie not encrypted home), your /home should be untouched and work fine
<kirkland> didrocks: i'm installing 9.10 in a vm now
<didrocks> kirkland: oh, I'm talking about lucid - lucid reinstallation (no change of layout)
<didrocks> kirkland: so, if I understand correctly, I just have to use a non encrypted home and use the same password for my user account (the same that was used to wrap my passphrase)
<cjwatson> MarcSpitz: that's actually in indicator-me - but better ask in #ayatana
<MarcSpitz> cjwatson: thank you, I'll ask there
<cjwatson> (I think src/indicator-me.c:username_cb is the function in question, but you'd need to either change the d-bus message definition, or else get the real name some other way or set the label somewhere else
<cjwatson> )
<siert> hello, still having issue 534225 in 10.04 rc; the no_proxy var ends with a comma
<kirkland> didrocks: oh, yeah
<kirkland> didrocks: that should just do it
<kirkland> didrocks: i'll test in a vm for you, though, if you like
<didrocks> kirkland: that will be cool :) I think we should take that case into account for lucid -> maverick (people reinstalling, using encrypted home and wanting to change their password)
<didrocks> kirkland: if you want, we can discuss that together at UDS, shoudl not be a lot of work (just integrating the case to ubiquity with unwrapped/rewrapped passphrase)
<kirkland> didrocks: fair enough;  would love to get some of you desktop guys making the encrypted home thing work better with the desktop ;-)
<tkamppeter> pitti, Ghostscript SRU for Lucid uploaded, bug 539708, should also fix many other Ghostscript problem,,s reported to Ubuntu.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 539708 in ghostscript "/usr/lib/cups/filter/pdftoraster failed " [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/539708
<pitti> tkamppeter: nice, thanks
<didrocks> kirkland: sweet, we will discuss also on the UNE default settings session about enabling it by default. Do you have any warnings/inputs there? ;)
<pitti> tkamppeter: will process in a bit, I'm still knee-deep in ISO testing
<kirkland> didrocks: i'd love to see it enabled by default;  I do have a couple of things I'd raise, though
<kirkland> didrocks: 2 main ones ...
<kirkland> didrocks: 1) we need to offer a key escrow service or something better than the popup that says "write down this passphrase"
<kirkland> didrocks: we should offer to encrypt it and store it in Ubuntu One, or something
 * didrocks nods
<pitti> stgraber: thank you so much for adding the "started" iso testing state, BTW!
<kirkland> didrocks: every week, 2-3 people come by #ecryptfs and they didn't write down their passphrase
<kirkland> didrocks: i actually have a key escrow web implementation already
<didrocks> kirkland: argh :/ but at least ecryptfs-unwrapp* is there (if they remember their password ^^)
<didrocks> sweet
<kirkland> didrocks: *and* if they have their wrapped passphrase, yes
<kirkland> didrocks: this is much better now that we put everything in /home
<kirkland> didrocks: when it was in /var in Jaunty and before, it was a disaster
<didrocks> right, I can imagine :/
<kirkland> didrocks: okay 2) long filenames
<stgraber> pitti: that's ara you have to thank for that one, I just did a code review ;)
<kirkland> didrocks: files in Linux are limited to 256 characters
<kirkland> didrocks: encrypting filenames involves some padding that makes the lower filename longer than the decrypted filename
<didrocks> kirkland: do you want to subscribe to the session: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-maverick-une-app-selection btw? (I still put that on the whiteboard)
<kirkland> didrocks: so filenames in ecryptfs are limited to something like 180 character
<didrocks> oh, ok, so, some corner cases are to be expected there
<kirkland> didrocks: yeah, mostly java programmers hit this
<kirkland> didrocks: eclipse, and autocad, and some programs like that save files with a paragraph for a filename
<kirkland> didrocks: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ecryptfs/+bug/344878
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 344878 in ecryptfs-utils "file name to long when creating new file (ecryptfs_lookup: lookup_one_len() returned [-36] on lower_dentry)" [High,Triaged]
<kirkland> didrocks: we could probably lean on the ecryptfs upstream kernel guy to get that one fixed
<kirkland> didrocks: or we could ask one of our kernel guys to fix it for them and send it upstream
<didrocks> kirkland: hum, that can be a blocker :/ let's seeâ¦
<didrocks> right
<kirkland> didrocks: yeah, i agree
<kirkland> didrocks: it's the main place that you can actually see a "difference" between ecryptfs and non-ecryptfs home
<kirkland> didrocks: i have 10G of files in my home dir, and no file name is that long
<kirkland> didrocks:  but people do hit that one, based on their usage patterns
<didrocks> yeah, but that's a pretty hard limitation for them (not sure it's quite relevant using eclipse or autocad in a netbook though), but we should take that into account
<didrocks> kirkland: well, I'm pushing that in the whiteboard
<kirkland> didrocks: thanks
<didrocks> kirkland: thanks for the feedback :)
<kirkland> didrocks: yeah, it's not just those two
<kirkland> didrocks: but you get the idea
<kirkland> didrocks: it's an unexpected difference in behavior
<kirkland> didrocks: oh, launchpad cookies ... that's where else i've seen *really* long filenames
<kirkland> didrocks: anyway, upstream should solve that
<didrocks> kirkland: yeah, that's why I was requesting those feedback ;) We can maybe see with upstream for the long filename one, right
<MarcSpitz> cjwatson: thx for the message sent @ 16:19, i didn't see it :)
<jdstrand> kirkland: fyi on bug 344878, evolution users hit it pretty easily with their cache files. just ask mdeslaur :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 344878 in ecryptfs-utils "file name to long when creating new file (ecryptfs_lookup: lookup_one_len() returned [-36] on lower_dentry)" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/344878
<kirkland> jdstrand: ?  really?  i'm an evolution user on encrypted home....
<kirkland> mdeslaur: under what circumstances do you hit that?
<mdeslaur> kirkland: the evolution web cache when you load images that are in html email hits it often for me
<kirkland> mdeslaur: web cache?
<mdeslaur> kirkland: open an html email, click "load images"
<kirkland> mdeslaur: interesting, okay, good to know
<kirkland> i'll talk to tyhicks about this again
<jdstrand> kirkland: excellent!
<mdeslaur> kirkland: I see it with geeks.com html email, for example
<jdstrand> kirkland: I actually *just* wrote an email to someone mentioning not to use long filenames in their ~/Private directory
<cjwatson> superm1,Daviey: thanks, acknowledged, sorry I didn't see your replies earlier
<Daviey> cjwatson: I imagine your hands are full. :)
<slangasek> cody-somerville: hi; we need a decision regarding whether Xubuntu wants a respin of desktop ISOs for bug #570765, and AFAIK mr_pouit hasn't been around to make the call - is this something you can help with?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570765 in ubiquity "[Lucid] no GRUB menu entry for other operating systems" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570765
<cody-somerville> slangasek, Are the other cds re-spinning for it?
<slangasek> cody-somerville: ubuntu desktop, netbook, dvd, and edubuntu: yes; mythbuntu: no; others: unaffected
<cody-somerville> slangasek, please respin
<slangasek> ok
<cjwatson> mythbuntu: unaffected # in fact
<pitti> mvo: unattended-upgrades> heh, I had to look three times before I spotted the difference :)
<mvo> pitti: terrible, isn't it!
<pitti> mvo: the joys of Python..
<mvo> pitti: its fortunately super-rare, can only happen if a package in -updates can not be upgraded
<mvo> pitti: yeah, more tests *cough*
<slangasek> cjwatson: ah, even better
<pitti> mvo: that's the problem -- it would have gotten fixed right away if it was in a main code path instead of an except: clause
<mvo> pitti: exactly
<pitti> tkamppeter: if it's cheap for you, would you mind reuploading ghostscript with the "LP: #" typo (missing #) fixed in the changelog?
<MarcSpitz> cjwatson: it works perfectly now, I can patch it just like old times, thanks
<MarcSpitz> how did you manage to find where it was to be changed ?
<cjwatson> guesswork and grepping
<MarcSpitz> amazing :)
<Adri2000> is it possible to tell germinate to not check whether a package exists?
<cjwatson> Adri2000: more detail please?
<mathiaz> james_w: hi!
<mathiaz> james_w: could you import the latest version of openldap?
<mathiaz> james_w: lp:ubuntu/lucid/openldap is still at ubuntu4 while ubuntu5 is available in the lucid archive
<james_w> mathiaz: otp, I'll look in a few
<MarcSpitz> i'm leaving, bye
<Adri2000> cjwatson: I'm building a custom -desktop package, so I bzr branch'ed the necessary seeds, committed my changes in it, modified update.cfg in my package. now ./update works correctly, except when I add a package which doesn't exist in the ubuntu archive (it does exist in our own repository though). so I need either to skip the check, or tell germinate to look at our repository
<jimlovell777> Well done ladies and gents. Thanks for all of your hard work.
<cjwatson> Adri2000: better to change update.cfg to look at your repository as well
<cjwatson> Adri2000: the germinate-update-metapackage(1) manual page should help
<cjwatson> (search for 'multiple')
<Adri2000> cjwatson: the point is that our repository is not deb http://our_url/foo lucid main; it's deb http://our_url/foo our_own_dist main; is it possible to do this?
<cjwatson> I think maybe not at the moment
<cjwatson> would mean hacking the code either way
<Adri2000> ok :( well, thanks
<cjwatson> I don't know that it would be straightforward to skip the existence check; that's pretty wired into germinate
<cjwatson> so maybe hack on Germinate/Archive/TagFile.pyp
<cjwatson> .py
<cjwatson> tagfile.py rather
<cjwatson> and special-case dist depending on your mirror, perhaps
<cjwatson> do also please file a bug on germinate about this
<hrw> ok, touchpad should work now
<Adri2000> cjwatson: ok
<didrocks> kirkland: I confirm, it works with encrypted passphrase + using the same password. (well, my setup is a little bit more complicated as I'm using lvm and ubiquity doesn't handle it well, but I'll try to have a crack on it for maverick)
<kirkland> didrocks: cool
<slangasek> cody-somerville: xubuntu will be
<slangasek> eh
<kirkland> didrocks: sorry, i got pulled into meetings, distracted
<slangasek> cody-somerville: xubuntu will be available in <20min for testing
<didrocks> kirkland: no pb, an install is the better way to achieve this :)
<slangasek> cody-somerville: the release announcement for the rest will be out before validation is done on xubuntu, I expect
<cody-somerville> ok
<slangasek> cody-somerville: do you want xubuntu excluded from the announcement mail, or annotated about the fact that it's not out yet?
<cody-somerville> slangasek, How much time do we have? We might be able to test in time.
<cody-somerville> charlie-tca, are you around?
<charlie-tca> yup
<slangasek> cody-somerville: ~1h
<charlie-tca> just waiting for it
<slangasek> including whatever time it takes you for syncing
<charlie-tca> It took less than 1 hour to rsync and test all of Ubuntu
<slangasek> yes, but there's a bit more bandwidth pressure in your way now :)
<charlie-tca> oh
<slangasek> if you can get it done, kudos
<charlie-tca> got to try
<slangasek> charlie-tca, cody-somerville: xubuntu desktop up
<charlie-tca> Thanks
<cody-somerville> ty
<pitti> stgraber: do you know why http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/untested doesn't show the ubuntu amd64 DVD, just i386? perhaps this causes more images to be missing, too?
<stgraber> pitti: try to drop /untested from that URL, I noticed it to be a bit buggy yesterday :(
<stgraber> http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/all/all correctly lists everything though
<pitti> stgraber: but that again shows me all images
<pitti> right, all/all is fine
<tfurtado> amd64 DVD has started to be tested: http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/test/4169
<tfurtado> it may be the reason
<pitti> stgraber: ok, nevermind
<pitti> tfurtado: ah, perhaps
<pitti> "in progress" is empty, though
<pitti> but nevermind for now
<stgraber> ara: ^ seems like images with optional testcases (or these with people marking it as "started") aren't displayed correctly on /untested and /inprogress
<stgraber> ara: we are supposed to have 3 "untested" and 1 "inprogress" at the moment but instead get only 2 "untested"
<stgraber> ara: with the one that's not showing up, being one with 4 testscases marked as "started"
<stgraber> ara: in that specific case, we should either show it in untested or in inprogress but not drop it completely from the lists ;)
<stgraber> pitti: ^
<ara> stgraber, sure, will fix it... someday
<stgraber> ara: yeah, no rush on that one ;)
<cody-somerville> slangasek, If Xubuntu isn't tested in time, just include Xubuntu in the release announcement like normal. We'll field questions about why its not available in #xubuntu. We should hopefully be able to give you the green light to publish the Xubuntu images soon (thanks to charlie-tca). :)
<charlie-tca> +1
<slangasek> cody-somerville: understood, thanks
<james_w> mathiaz: done
<mathiaz> james_w: thnaks !
<hyperair> Failed to connect to socket /var/run/dbus/system_bus_socket: No such file or directory
<hyperair> does anyone know why dbus fails so spectacularly?
<apw> pitti, just had to upload an updated LBM package, we have a file collission which renders LBM uninstrallable if you have two abis installed at once, this is intended to replace the current -proposed version
<blackxored> what's the problem with xubuntu, ubiquity???
<pitti> apw: ack
<apw> sorry to mess you about
<cody-somerville> blackxored, pardon?
<blackxored> cody-somerville, I've been lurking, some issues with xubuntu, wanted to know what was the problem?
<blackxored> s/was/was\/is/
<cody-somerville> blackxored, the problem is fixed now. We're just testing the image now.
<pitti> apw: done (shouldn't require NEW any more)
<blackxored> cody-somerville, cool, wondering what was it related to?
<cody-somerville>  bug #570765
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 570765 in ubiquity "[Lucid] no GRUB menu entry for other operating systems" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/570765
<blackxored> cody-somerville, thank you
<blackxored> cool
<blackxored> I'm running RC through updates
<blackxored> have you fixed the dbus: no such file or directory one?
<blackxored> so it was ubiquity from my previous question ;)
<highvoltage> is the new Ubuntu font available anywhere?
<hyperair> there's a new ubuntu font?
<hyperair> what's it called?
<ogra> ikonia, awesome job in #u-r-p ... kudos
<ikonia> awesome job on building a distro
<ogra> wouldnt be possible with people like you though :)
<ogra> catherding a community is part of it ;)
<joaopinto> was there something changed with appamor capable of breaking existing custom profiles ?
<jdstrand> pitti: hey, I was just testing the postgresql testsuite on an up to date lucid and ran into: http://paste.ubuntu.com/424699/
<jdstrand> pitti: do you know what is going on?
<jdstrand> pitti: prior to running, I used: apt-get install sudo postgresql postgresql-common libpq-dev procps hunspell-en-us language-pack-ru ssl-cert locales python-pygresql postgresql-plpython-8.4 postgresql-plperl-8.4 postgresql-pltcl-8.4 postgresql-server-dev-8.4
<jdstrand> among other things
<jdstrand> pitti: as with karmic, I use locale-gen for 'en_US', 'en_US.UTF-8', 'ru_RU', 'ru_RU.UTF-8', then set LANG=en_US.UTF-8
<jdstrand> pitti: oh, actually I bet the 'system has a default UTF-8 locale' has to do with the lost RU? I can whitelist those in qrt. the cluster ones in 020_create_sql_remove.t seem perhaps more important
* slangasek changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 10.04 LTS is out! | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper-karmic | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
<ikonia> kudos to all who worked on 10.04 - it's out, well done
<hyperair> it's out?
<hyperair> D= it's out!
<jiboumans> sweet
<jdstrand> pitti: fyi only btw. I have whitelisted those 3 errors in qrt since we released with it
<jdstrand> \o/
<highvoltage> congrats everyone!
<dholbach> you all rock! thanks everyone!
<blackxored> !outyet
<ubottu> Yes! Its out!
<blackxored> wow
<slangasek> cody-somerville: http://xubuntu.org/news/10.04-release - please publish
<slangasek> superm1, Daviey: please publish http://mythbuntu.org/10.04/release
<pitti> jdstrand: I bet it's because the locales are called .utf8 now
<pitti> jdstrand: instead of .UTF-8
<pitti> slangasek: congratulations!
<jdstrand> slangasek: nice job!
<quadrispro> great job!
<pitti> jdstrand: off to dinner/evening now; if you think that there's a bug, can you please file one and assign to me, and I'll try to make some sense of it tomorrow?
<blackxored> congrats**10000000000000000000000
<jdstrand> pitti: I'll fiddle with it some more, sure
<jdstrand> pitti: have a nice night :)
<akgraner> Thank you all for all your hard work!  You all rock!!
<cody-somerville> slangasek, I can't access the xubuntu website. Load is too high. :(
<xnox> the website still has logo wrong way around =( ubuntu.com
<xnox> with "ubuntu font"
<xnox> =(((((( are we gonna get the website today as well like shown in the mockups or is it not ready yet
<slangasek> cody-somerville: ah - well, it's published now :)
<highvoltage> slangasek: thanks for doing such a great job as release manager during this release! and I'm not just sucking up for more FFe's during maverick, I mean it!
<ruku> Hey everyone! Congrats on the release!
<Kano> hi, http://packages.ubuntu.com/ still pointing to karmic
<highvoltage> ew! ew! ew! I'm on a stable release!!! this is way too comfortable when does maverick open?
<xnox> highvoltage, me too
<xnox> can't wait for maverick =)
 * xnox should start pre-merging packages =)
<xnox> it's like so boring. There weren't any juice updates lately and while there is all the hype about lucid I'm like yeah...... 3 months old news for me
<persia> Go for SRUs for now: there's lots of bugs that didn't get fixed.
<xnox> persia, ever pushing to do the right thing =)
<xnox> persia, I actually got my cross-compilers to work though btw
<persia> Cool!
<xnox> persia, it's a jhbuild moduleset so that upstream can use it as well. And we have gcc & binutils imports in launchpad now
<xnox> so i'm considering to start running weekly ppa & propose to restart win32 & win64 debian ports
<persia> Great.  There's still lots of packages that *can't* crossbuild, but it's a start
<zigo-_-> Can't login to the launchpad (500: Internal Server Error), so I can't reply to a bug entry for one of my packages, is this known and being fixed?
<ChogyDan> zigo-_-: you may be able to get an answer in #launchpad
<zigo-_-> cheers
<xnox> anyone did lpi certification?
<xnox> i wonder how hard it is.
<xnox> cause i do packaging but I have never been running production servers before........
<soren> xnox: Having done packaging is not going to help you.
<xnox> soren, that's what I thought.....
<xnox> soren, witch dh & cdbs you hardly need to know any command line =)
<Pici> Could someone poke the appropriate person to update https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuHashes ?
<Damascene> congratulation, well done
<joaopinto> xnox, packaging and not knowing "the command line" is kind of dangerous :)
<persia> newz2000: Could you help Pici with that?
<xnox> joaopinto, well =) i started with knolewdge how to run latex. And now I'm ok to fix up broken configure.ac & daily WTF makefile.am's =)
<xnox> joaopinto, so i'm getting there =) i'm still no guru
<ajmitch> well done on the release, good to see it out :)
<joaopinto> cjwatson, can you work the wrong timezone being selected for Portugal bug ?
<joaopinto> it gives a bad feeling for the installation process
<Damascene> is it the time to file mani inclusion request?
<Damascene> *main
<kkszysiu> hello
<kkszysiu> anyone had simillar problem?
<kkszysiu> Package cowdancer is not available, but is referred to by another package.
<kkszysiu> This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or
<kkszysiu> is only available from another source
<kkszysiu> E: Package cowdancer has no installation candidate
<kkszysiu> using sudo cowbuilder --create
<persia> kkszysiu: Probably a main/universe issue.  Check your sources.list.
<kkszysiu> persia, main/universe? Well my sources.list looks like this: http://friendpaste.com/2NfMprDxjnBYMNQmIBbmEI
<persia> That's the sources.list being used by cowbuilder?
<persia> I don't know much about cowbuilder (I use sbuild), but I thought it had a separate per-chroot sources.list.  Dunno otherwise: the package exists for all four architectures I track.  Are you using sparc or ia64?  (my madison-lite doesn't tell me about those)
<kkszysiu> im using x86
<chrismsnz> congrats on the release, ladies and gentlemen :)
<xnox> kkszysiu, i've been using cowdancer the whole lucid release cycle
<xnox> and using now
<xnox> what's up?
<kkszysiu> xnox, you used it today?
<xnox> yes
<kkszysiu> because I used some time ago cowdancer and it works well too
<kkszysiu> but today its not working for me
<xnox> let me redo dist-upgrade again to doublecheck
<kkszysiu> strange
<xnox> kkszysiu, what does $ dpkg -l cowdancer
<xnox> tell you?
<kkszysiu> xnox, http://friendpaste.com/1wNJ153OkrWS6tH0rkFhTI
<xnox> right so you have it installed but it's not working?
<kkszysiu> xnox, when I use cowbuilder
<xnox> kkszysiu, I see what's your problem
<xnox> there is something wrong with your ~/.pbuilderrc or the the already created cowbuilder
<xnox> kkszysiu, which ubuntu/debian release have you tried to create inside cowbuilder?
<kkszysiu> xnox, lucid
<kkszysiu> wait
<kkszysiu> hmm
<kkszysiu> ok I thing I got it
<xnox> right let me try that if I can reproduce
<xnox> really? cause with lucid you might have timed-out on the mirror & or the mirror might have been inconsistent with respect to getting updates
<kkszysiu> http://friendpaste.com/6vLxfmkj4TPndRihNqFEYr
<xnox> !!!!!!!!!!!!!
<YokoZar> Is it too late to click the rebuild button on launchpad?
<kkszysiu> ? :D
<xnox> http://friendpaste.com/6vLxfmkj4TPndRihNqFEYr
<xnox> i've updated it
<xnox> why are you getting base.tgz created if you are using cowbuilder ?
<kkszysiu> dont know :D
<xnox> note pbuilder creates base.tgz; cowbuilder is a wrapper around pbuilder which uses base.cow/ *directory*
<xnox> kkszysiu, let me give you my config
<kkszysiu> ph
<kkszysiu> ok
<xnox> http://friendpaste.com/70JKdZJe7XuxuXtDDDjdQ8
<xnox> if you use this .pbuilderrc
<xnox> you will need to invoke
<xnox> sudo DIST=lucid cowbuilder --create
<xnox> and it will make /var/cache/lucid.cow
<xnox> you can use this config to create defined debian & ubuntu releases
<xnox> also with this config you can do
<xnox> sudo DIST=lucid pbuilder --create
<xnox> and it will make the pbuilder    /var/cache/lucid.tgz
<xnox> but use cowbuilder cause it's faster
<xnox> my config sets eg for pdebuild to use cowbuilder and a few other options. Should be save
 * xnox did delete a few options before pasting. So still adjust it to use your local mirror and stuff like that
<kkszysiu> ah
<xnox> see anything interesting?
<xnox> also your paste had a hook running, not sure if you have some weird hooks defined
<kkszysiu> xnox, you use that for debian? :P
<xnox> kkszysiu, both =)
<xnox> i do default to sid though
<kkszysiu> well
<kkszysiu> thats even better for me :P
<xnox> cause if my package doesn't build in sid and doesn't pass sid's lintian it's no use =)
<xnox> kkszysiu, point is that I sometimes do DIST=karmic sometimes DIST=sid, sometimes DIST=hardy
<xnox> cause I keep getting upstream reports saying "hmmmmm package for jaunty from your ppa doesn't work"
<xnox> so I investigate in the cowbuilder shell =)
<kkszysiu> :D
 * xnox 's laptop can't handle VM's nicely =)
#ubuntu-devel 2010-04-30
<KIAaze> hi
<KIAaze> how can I build 32-bit packages on 64-bit?
<KIAaze> (without using launchpad)
<RAOF> KIAaze: pbuilder-dist from ubuntu-dev-tools is a quick and easy way; call it as âpbuilder-dist lucid i386 $OPERATIONâ and you'll get an i386 lucid chroot.  Symlink pbuilder-lucid-i386 to pbuilder-dist for added ease.
<KIAaze> thanks :)
<KIAaze> the distro specification is even better :)
<KIAaze> well, just as useful at least
<Nafai> I need to learn all of these tools
<Nafai> Hopefully RAOF and others can school me at UDS :)
<persia> Nafai: Actually, you'd do best to learn online: UDS is busy, and you'll want to follow along.  Join #ubuntu-packaging anytime and folks are happy to help (or ask here if it's quiet).
<Nafai> thanks
<RAOF> Or even #ubuntu-motu; we're more used to (and generally happy to field) beginner questions in there.
 * persia thinks it's mostly the same folks answering questions in any of these places.
<RAOF> Mostly, yeah.
<YokoZar> Was Universe/Multiverse supposed to be disabled in apt by default?  (and then silently enabled by codec-install and software center when you install an appropriate package)?  I don't see the point other than breaking apt:// links
<persia> #ubuntu-desktop might be handy as well, for the bits about how the Deskop packages work with bzr, etc.
<persia> YokoZar: Not anymore.  Used to be that way.
 * persia wishes multiverse was still disabled, but ...
 * jdong giggles at http://jdong.mit.edu/~jdong/wtf.png
<jdong> am I supposed to say yes or no?
<YokoZar> persia: Apparently apt://ubuntu-restricted-extras  doesn't work if it's the very first thing you do after install
<jdong>                    â Default package if none is detected.  â
 * YokoZar wonders why jdong is installing checkbox on a terminal session...
<persia> jdong: ubuntu-bug to the rescue!
<YokoZar> persia: By the way do you know if there's a sort of bzr-hg tool?  I know we have bzr-git and now there's git-hg too
<jdong> YokoZar: I don't know what checkbox is and why it's on this system I'm do-release-upgrading.
<YokoZar> jdong: it's a QA tool that's only graphical
<jdong> YokoZar: oh.
<jdong> well List of jobs to blacklist: Suites Blacklist: ____________
 * jdong is gonna just assume blank....
<persia> jdong: I have a suspicion there is because I've heard of folks doing hudson with bzr, but ask in #bzr
<persia> YokoZar: It's not only graphical: the primary frontend is graphical.
<YokoZar> Yes, true
<YokoZar> I haven't run it on a headless setup in forever because all the tests I cared about were the ones that crashed X
<persia> heh.
<RAOF> YokoZar: I'm pretty sure that launchpad is now using bzr-hg to mirror mercurial branches, so I'd guess that it's out there *somewhere* :)
<YokoZar> woop woop
<KIAaze> RAOF: I'm having problems adding a PPA to the i386 base.tar.gz. Do you know how to do that?
<KIAaze> (I switched to #ubuntu-packaging)
<arand> Regarding
<arand> Regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/519541 I'm wondering if it's worth looking for a small diff here? Is the new package still not very appropriate for a SRU, and hence narrowing down the error is a worthwhile pastime?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 519541 in ubuntu-release-notes "Abiword 2.8.1 freezes with document lost when help is clicked or F1 is pressed" [Undecided,Fix released]
<psusi> well that's weird... why is #ubuntu+1 invite only?
<JanC> psusi: because there is no ubuntu+1
<arand> psusi: It's shut down, until 6th
<psusi> odd to close the channel though...
<JanC> #ubuntu-1 is to discuss the next version, and that has to be started still  ;)
<persia> arand: Yeah, it would need a cherrypicked fix.
<persia> psusi: That channel always goes away on release.  It usually opens again after the first milestone or so.
<JanC> psusi: if you want to party, go to #ubuntu-release-party  ;)
<arand> persia: Ok, then I'll carry on.
<psusi> shame that dmraid support regressed at the last minute...
<TerminX> is the 6th supposed to be when the maverick repo opens?
<persia> arand: Good luck.  I recommend focusing on stacktraces, rather than on the upstream changes.  Use the upstream changes as reference when trying to find a fix once you find the interseting bit of the stacktrace.
<persia> TerminX: It's usually mushier than that: in that the repo first needs to be defined, and then it needs to get toolchain uploads, and sometimes multiple revisions, and then it's open for general use.
<JanC> on the 6th most developers will probably be in the middle of nowhere somewhat south of brussels  ;)
<persia> TerminX: I'd say it's a safe bet that the repo will be open before the 9th, but wouldn't want to promise that it's definitely open on the 6th (although that's likely)
<persia> JanC: Why, is there another event happening?
<JanC> persia: UDS ?
<TerminX> ah, okay.  I usually switch to the new repo within a couple of days after it opening
<TerminX> I ran debian unstable for years until warty opened
<persia> JanC: I didn't think that started until the 10th (and planned to arrive the 9th).  Will I be missing something?
<TerminX> it was a no-brainer to switch since debian was moving extremely slowly at the time :p
<persia> TerminX: Watch ubuntu-devel@ I'm sure it will be announced.
<JanC> persia: you're right
<persia> Oh good!
 * persia was really not looking forward to that call to the travel agent
<JanC> hehe
<bthesorceror> does anyone have any suggestions for a newbie that wants to get involved in ubuntu development?
<persia> bthesorceror: I've an entire collection, depending on the sort of thing you like to do.  What do you like to do?
<bthesorceror> well my day job is a web developer for a university, but I am looking to get more hands on with the system and want to learn more about what makes it tick
<bthesorceror> so I guess the real answer is I dont really know yet
<persia> OK.  The way I usually recommend for folks that aren't sure is to get involved in bugsquad for some of the packages they use, and get to know any teams that work on packages that interest them.
<persia> So, if you're interested in webservers, you'd want to hang out in #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-server and see if you can track down (and maybe help fix) issues with the webserver.  If you get enough of that at work, and want to do something completely different in the evening, you might choose something different, like #ubuntu-bugs+#ubuntu-mythtv
<bthesorceror> ok, that sounds like a good idea, thanks for the help
<persia> bthesorceror: If you get lost, come back here, and ask for directions :)
<ccheney> heh archive is so hammered i can't even use a cached approx to update, just apt-get update takes forever :-
<micahg> ccheney: are you upgrading to lucid or just upgrading packages?
<ccheney> micahg: trying to update karmic from my approx mirror then upgrade to lucid once that is done
<ccheney> it might go a lot faster if i kill internet connection on the approx mirror box, heh
<ccheney> it took 8 minutes to run apt-get update on a 12mbps connection
<micahg> ccheney: ah, the trick I used is to update from a local mirror to lucid, then switch to main archive and update again before reboot
<ccheney> well approx passes through to the real archive unless it think the connection is down so seems to be causing the slow down
<pitti> Good morning
<Hobbsee> morning pitti
<ajmitch> morning pitti
<StevenK> Hey pitti
<StevenK> pitti: All ready for Maverick, or do you need another minute? :-P
<pitti> StevenK: Look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~pitti/+assignedbugs?orderby=status and see how much I want to upload :-P
<pitti> maverick! maverick! maverick!
<StevenK> Haha
<ajmitch> that's quite a pile of bugfixes to land
<pitti> well, a lot are SRUs, too
<Damascene> after I leave my system for along time I wake up in the morning on the sound of the fan
<Damascene> not really but the sound is very high.
<Damascene> and after I start using the system the fan calm down
<Damascene> calms
 * pitti ceremonially removes his intrepid chroot
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> hey dholbach, happy TGIF!
<dholbach> hola pitti
<dholbach> TGIF indeed :)
<pitti> TGIDAR, even
<pitti> ("day after release")
<m4t> hey, does anyone know if something changed with kernel-package in 10.04? initrd doesnt seem to be generated
<pitti> m4t: is it supposed t  in the .deb? (note that Ubuntu doesn't use kernel-package)
<pitti> m4t: the initramfs has been dynamically generated on kernel installation for ages
<m4t> yea i think something is not in /etc/kernel/postinst.d
<slangasek> highvoltage: thank you as well for your work coordinating on the release!  It was a pleasure working with you
<slangasek> highvoltage: as for FFe's, I'm afraid you'll have to suck up to someone else next cycle :)
<rickspencer3> no FFE's next cycle!
<ogra> no next cycle ?
 * ogra is scared
<rickspencer3> ogra yes next cycle, no FFEs next cycle
<ogra> haha
 * pitti makes a note to push rickspencer3 to the FFEs from the artwork/design/etc teams :)
<rickspencer3> pitti, we'll be talking on Tuesday
<rickspencer3> of course, I'm not the sabdfl ;)
 * pitti goes back to this great fun called "tzdata update"
<pitti> go Argentina
<rickspencer3> no rest for the weary
<rickspencer3> thanks pitti
<m4t> hrm i had to manually copy initramfs to /etc/kernel/postinst.d, but it made the initramfs
<m4t> don't recall having to do that in 9.10
<m4t> hah, my progress bar at boot is like 8bit ansi art...very low res. any idea why that might be?
<m4t> prolly my vga mode i guess
<hrw> vga mode... I hope that 10.10 will get more framebuffer drivers into alternate installer (or lvm/raid/crypto etc support into normal one)
<m4t> for some reason update-initramfs isnt bringing the right modules into the initrd
<m4t> its skipping radeonfb for example
<m4t> i just specified it in /etc/initramfs-tools/modules...that worked
<virtuald> that's because it's blacklisted because it doesn't work well
<epochfail> hmm. wow.
<epochfail> my boot up time improved to 30 seconds to give me a complete desktop on a crappy netbook
<epochfail> good work :D
<highvoltage> slangasek: heh :)
<seb128> did somebody read any bug about fsck being stucked around 90% and use lot of cpu?
<seb128> didrocks and I just got the same issue today
<seb128> 88% to 91% take like twice the time usually full fsck takes
<pitti> this rather doesn't sound like a plymouth problem, though (too specific on the percentages)
<seb128> the cpu seems to be quite busy hearing the laptop noise
<pitti> the total percentage is calculated from the fsck stage and progress within that stage
<pitti> perhaps that particular one just took very long
<seb128> it's weird that didrocks and I just got the same issue today
<seb128> well if you skip a fsck it should trigger again on next boot?
<didrocks> yeah, that was very weird. I was thinking I was an isolated case
<seb128> because I stopped it and reboot and I didn't get it to trigger again
<seb128> I'm wondering if fsck was done running but plymouth didn't notice
<joaopinto> why did you both get a full system check at the same time in the first place :) ?
<seb128> I think mine was just the normal "n uncheck mounts" one
<didrocks> I guess it's the same for me. I saw that a lot of previous one was just ignored (as if I triggered C) IIRC
<didrocks> but I didn't cancel them myself
<joaopinto> you coud try to reproduce with /forcefsck
<seb128> joaopinto, where do you specify that? grub?
<joaopinto> there is an option on grub, but you can do it at the fs level: sudo touch /forcefsck
<seb128> joaopinto, let's try that, thanks
<joaopinto> I did have an issue with the fsck hanging for a long time on the 70%, but I had the idea that was identified and fixed during beta/rc
<arand> I had a stuckage at 74% after a /forcefsck as seen by others: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/plymouth/+bug/554737   New very similar bug? Or this one hanging around still?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 554737 in plymouth "ply_boot_client_flush() does not read replies (plymouth stuck during/after filesystem check or error)" [High,Fix released]
<sladen> actually, I think I may have been that a week ago
<seb128> arand, thanks
<seb128> didrocks, pitti: ^ seems similar
<sladen> a reboot cured it (the fsck had finished sufficiently)
<sladen> my dread was that a reboot in the middle of a half finished fsck would just fsck again, but that didn't happen
<didrocks> seb128: right, seems similar. I'm rebooting to have a try there tooâ¦
<pitti> sladen: ah, perhaps it did crash then
<pitti> seb128 ^ I mean
<arand> For me, I had to get rid of plymouth (I assume, booting without quiet and splash) to get past it... testing in a vbox as we speak..
<Tm_T> oh, was about to ask why fsck leads to boot problems...
<sladen> pitti: I think it hung, I left it 5 minutes, then grumbled and rebooted.  So either that was enough time to get fro 75% to 100% (without displaying any progress), or the display of the progress is badly calibrated in the first place
<Tm_T> seems to me that after checks are finished, boot doesn't continue
<Tm_T> been 15 mins after last partition checked and no proceeding
<Tm_T> sladen: when I tried with plash, percentages crawled to 90 and then stopped, so for whatever reason it's not reliable at all
<arand> Yes, When I turned of graphical boot the fsck just stated "clean" and it booted fine... However if I only booted in graphical it was stuck in a loop..
<Tm_T> crawl = several minutes per percent with no disk activity
<sladen> arand: if you leave it 10 minutes first, then reboot?
<arand> sladen: I'll do that... It's a virtualbox.
<didrocks> (the fsck after reboot is proceeding there)
<arand> Hmm, it's ~5-10 min now since booted, it halted on 70% and has now crawled to 74%..
<Tm_T> arand: might be ready already
<Tm_T> if no apparent disk activity...
<didrocks> arand: same here :)
<didrocks> 74% too, let's see who will win
<Tm_T> it'll crawl up from there while doing nothing
<arand> Oh! This is interesting, if I jump out to a tty (ctrl+alt+left) wait a while, and the jump back, it has moved much faster, otherwise it takes almost a minute or so per percent, if at all.
<Tm_T> OOH! I waited long enough, boot continues (:)
<Tm_T> ~30 minutes doing nothing
<arand> And when I jump to the tty I see the fsck... 0.3% non-contiguous... message, which should indicate that the fsck is in fact done, right? the fsck message is printed each time I jump out.
<didrocks> I confirm there too (well, reprinting is maybe due to fb handling), but normally, that means it's done
<arand> It sound a lot like 554737 revisited, or is it to be considered new? Bug #571707 doesn't seem to be this one..
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 571707 in mountall "fsck at bootstrap is too slow" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/571707
<hrw> fsck on start is a thing which needs improvements. I did not yet know how it is in ubuntu but in Debian I feel that strange (even as 11 years Debian user). I understand that when 'fsck -a' fails then user has to do something. but on my machines I usually do "fsck" and press enter key to get all "fix <y>" accepted. normal stndard users will probably do similar.
<didrocks> arand: I pretty agree that should be part of it
<didrocks> arand: there is already a bootchart asked by keybuck. It seems we are all struck by it and the importance is already high (I'm at 90% right now)
<arand> didrocks: Yes, seems like a nasty one...
<apw> pitti, yo ... maverick burn down ... i know its real early but as we use the WI db to visualise our commitments list wise i am interested in getting the maverick.db building ... wondering when you might be planning to start
<pitti> apw: I'm happy to start ASAP, but for that to work we need to create maverick in LP first
<pitti> otherwise you can't target specs to it, read milestone dates, and so on
<apw> pitti, damn good point :)
<arand> didrocks: Would you say it's probably the latter bug then? That one states that there is no output on the ttys...
<Tm_T> seems like fsck does its job normally but plymouth doesn't act accordingly
<arand> Yes, especially since if you jump out to a tty it proceeds properly and boots fine.
<didrocks> arand: I would say the root cause should be the same. After printing or not on tty can be related to framebuffer handling on various graphic cardâ¦ (maybe adding a comment on the bug report there ?)
<Tm_T> without plymouth graphics, it spits out fsck results to tty and then wait 30 minutes here
<Tm_T> this in physical hardware, with old grub
<arand> Tm_T: For me the boot takes less than a minute if I disable splash & quiet along with /forcefsck
<arand> (virtualbox)
<didrocks> ok, partition 1 finished, partition 2 now
<arand> didrocks: You really going to sit through it to the end?
<didrocks> arand: well, I have my netbook, so, not that a big deal :)
<arand> didrocks: Well, if you just jump out to tty it should finish much quicker, at least if it's the same thing... and unless you aim to get som full gory debug out of it...
<didrocks> arand: right, just have to jump for more than 4 seconds apparently
<didrocks> arand: if you jump and come back, it doesn't
<joaopinto> uff, I am sure plymouth/mountall will be the show stopper winners on 10.04
<didrocks> joaopinto: well, if it's fixed soon enough, people installing lucid won't have the time to reboot 30 times (there is still the issue with people upgrading though)
<arand> The logs just posted on Bug #571707 is a nice display of plymouthd (presumably) doing the exact opposite of the intended...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 571707 in mountall "fsck at bootstrap is too slow" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/571707
<slangasek> mvo: <Dave> I mark Lucid a Success. Even my ability to break things that should not be breakable was no match for the upgrade process!
<slangasek> mvo: congrats :-)
<arand> Well, it's (seemingly) easily worked around by switching to tty, but that's not a good consolidation for most... I discovered it completely by mistake when trying to switch host virtual desktops, which got picked up by vbox instead :S
<joaopinto> didrocks, there were too many issues being fixed too late on the development cycle, not enough time for broader testing, anyway the change was a challenge, I don't want to sound negative
<arand> Do you think we should add a plymouth task there as well?
<didrocks> arand: I was swithing to a tty, but too quickly for seeing the benefit on the time. I guess it's not easily discoverable :/
<didrocks> arand: I think keybuck is on it as he answered, so he will triage if it's mountall or plymouth himself, I would say
<arand> didrocks: No, as seen by the orig reporter as well, who apparently just concluded that tty was empty.
<didrocks> arand: maybe we should ping him directly when he'll be online to point him to the last debugging info
<mvo> slangasek: yipiee
<arand> didrocks: Likely a good idea, sooner the better..
 * cjwatson starts pushing maverick seed branches
<xnox> cjwatson, =)))))) horay
<Damascene> if some one want to build a distribution based on ubuntu and if the some missing translation were fixed. will he get ubiquity updated with the translation?
<cjwatson> Damascene: we'll do a translation update for 10.04.1
<dmart> kees,asac: hi, do you have a moment to talk about https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu-arm/+spec/arm-m-missing-security-features
<jdstrand> dmart: fyi, kees doesn't usually come online for about ~4 hours
<dmart> jdstrand: thanks, I'll try to catch him later
<dmart> asac__: I can probably draft that blueprint in consultation with relevant kernel guys, but I need input on what the missing features actually are... is there someone other than kees who knows?
<asac__> dmart: security? kees posted stuff in the summary
<asac__> he can elaborate on that
<dmart> asac__: ah, it's on the whiteboard.  OK, I'll see where I can get to
<jdstrand> dmart: actually, it is more like ~3 hours -- I forgot which timezone *I* was in
<jdstrand> :)
<dmart> jdstrand: OK! thanks... maybe I can catch him before I go home after all :)
<mvo> cjwatson: hi, for bug #540579 I would like to add a workaround in update-manager
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 540579 in lupin "infinite loop in /etc/grub.d/10_linux while reading image list - "Found linux image: /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.32-16-generic"" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/540579
<mvo> cjwatson: I just got a system where the bug happens (just fyi)
<pitti> YokoZar: is there a bug for the dssi-vst upload? As an SRU it needs some place to collect testing feedback, and standard policy is to have a bug for that
<pitti> YokoZar: mind reuploading with an LP: # reference?
<cjwatson> mvo: oh, right, yeah, that one - I think I sent mail about that a while back?
<cjwatson> yes, I think it probably does need a u-m workaround
<mvo> cjwatson: right, I will prepare something and send to -proposed, should be easy. I kind of ignored it because of the idea of moving a fixed version to -updates, but thinking again its best to add a u-m fix too
<zul> pitti: can you reject the php5 upload to lucid-proposed please?
<Damascene> hi,
<pitti> zul: I was gonna ask you about it -- a new binary in updates?
<Damascene> I want to start main-inclusion-request for mlterm for this bug to be fixed, bug #562130
<pitti> zul: (rejected)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 562130 in language-selector "Selecting an RTL language should install RTL capable terminal emulator" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/562130
<zul> pitti: yeah...bad idea i know
<Damascene> could any one help me on doing it
<Damascene> please
<zul> pitti: thanks
<Ixan> is there any way to automate the confirmation of accepting the license for sun-java6-jdk? my company has a distribution agreement (or something like that)
<lifeless> yes, its documented in the wiki
<Ixan> oh, okay. I'll search better next time. thx
<Damascene> so no help on main-inclusion-request. I should go ahead and do what I can.
<Damascene> I've read this https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMainInclusionRequirements
<ScottK> Damascene: The best thing to do is find someone who is interested in this and going to be at UDS to proposed a spec about it.  If that's done and it gets approved it smoothes the way for the MIR later.
<ScottK> (Note: I am not that person)
<Damascene> that person should be ubuntu member?
<joaopinto> Damascene, is that related to the RTL issue and mlterm ?
<Damascene> yes
<joaopinto> Damascene, It's not clear for me that including mlterm was the accepted solution
<Damascene> joaopinto, are you talking about the person that doesn't want any RTL text in terminal and his friend?
<joaopinto> Damascene, no, I am talking that it doesn't make much sense to propose mlterm to be included on main to workaround a bug, when it was not decided if that's the best course of action for the bug resolution
<Damascene> so we should vote?
<joaopinto> bug resolutions are not democratic :)
<Damascene> np. what should I do
<Damascene> in another word who should accept the solution
<joaopinto> Damascene, there was a recent blog post on planet about someone with would like to fix VTE
<joaopinto> I mean, more like asking for help on where to start to look at
<Damascene> could you give me a link?
<joaopinto> I don't have the link :\
<Damascene> any way I was just trying to see ubutnu more suitable for rtl languages users
<Damascene> joaopinto,  I've searched for rtl vte and terminal but no luck in http://planet.gnome.org/ are you sure it's gnome planet
<joaopinto> ops sorry, I mean ubuntu planet
<Damascene> you didn't say it's gnome planet :)
<Damascene> google led me to a link but when I open the page nothing mention the problem
<Damascene> http://planet.ubuntu.com/?PHPSESSID=c35868b27a18dab48732329d71912a5f
<Damascene> search string: terminal right to left site:http://planet.ubuntu.com/
<hyperair> crimsun: the 01Pulseaudio script seems rather.. broken on lucid.
<hyperair> crimsun: seems like an invalid invocation of su
<hyperair> crimsun: and a misplaced '
<Damascene> so VTE is not going to be fixed. any one could help in having mlterm installed for RTL users?
<joaopinto> Damascene, aren't there locoteams for the affected countries ?
<Damascene> yeah. I've contacted some of them and even subscribed some of them
<Damascene> what do you want them to do?
<ScottK> You might talk to dpm since it seems to relate to language support.
<dpm> thanks for the heads up, ScottK. Damascene, are you going to UDS or know someone who could bring up this subject there? I can add it as a topic to a session, but I lack the tecnical knowledge on vte/mlterm to be able to commit to making it available, and it'd be good to have someone to discuss it with
<hyperair> crimsun: i'll take back what i said about "rather broken" and replace it with "broken in so many ways that I can't even begin to imagine what went wrong"
<Damascene> dpm, thank you. I don't know what the UDS is and I don't know any one who can help.
<dpm> Damascene, ah, sorry. UDS is the Ubuntu Developer Summit, where the discussion for the next Ubuntu release takes place. It happens every 6 months, at the beginning of a release cycle, and the next one is going to Be in Brussels in a couple of weeks time -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS
<Damascene> I can't go there for sure :)
<dpm> it's open to everyone interested in contributing to Ubuntu and working towards making it rock even arder, basically
<dpm> harder, I meant
<Damascene> could you make it a session topic
<Damascene> lease
<Damascene> please
<dpm> Damascene, I'll add it as a topic for one of the translations roundtables. Remember you can also participate remotely at UDS via IRC and listening to the session's voice stream. There is a class next week on IRC where Jorge Castro will explain how to participate remotely, if you are interested -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek (on Friday)
<Damascene> ok
<Damascene> dpm, would it help if we brought one of mlterm developers?
<Damascene> or it's just ubuntu who can decide?
<ivanshih> hi~ all
<ivanshih> i have one problem in ubuntu 10.04 + thinkpad x201
<ivanshih> the battery is discharged
<ivanshih> does anyone can help me ?
<Damascene> hi ivanka
<Damascene> read the topic please
<ivanshih> hi
<Damascene> I think it's better to ask in #ubuntu
<ivanshih> sorry
<ivanshih> ^^
<Damascene> he probably will be lost in the channel jam
<Damascene> 1782 user
<Damascene> you should start to offer channel based on problem kind
<Damascene> #ubuntu-boot-problem, #ubuntu-update-problem
<Damascene> :)
<joaopinto> Damascene, that would allow more specialized support, but would be a burden to manage
<Damascene> I think it's better than users get lost in channel jam
<dpm> Damascene, it would definitely help if one of the mlterm developers could assist, either in person or remotely
<joaopinto> and it would also allow to have developers to be present on related channels
<Damascene> joaopinto, exactly
<Damascene> some one should work on this
<Damascene> dpm, I'll try to contact the developer
<joaopinto> Damascene, there is an ubuntu irc group I think, you could suggest to them
<Damascene> bug 392799
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 392799 in ubuntu-community "#ubuntu too noisy to be useful" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/392799
<crimsun> hyperair: um, how? I'd have expected such errors to show up during local testing and in suspend-failure reports.
<hyperair> crimsun: i'd have expected your local testing to show you something >_>
<crimsun> hyperair: where is it broken?
<hyperair> crimsun: did you look in /var/run/pm-utils/pm-suspend/storage/state:user:{source,sink}*?
<hyperair> all the su invocations
<hyperair> every single one of them is broken
<hyperair> -l causes them to no-op
<hyperair> and then savestate and restorestate are part of the commands passed into su
<hyperair> but savestate and restorestate are pm-utils functions, and don't exist within su's internal shell.
<hyperair> i mean the shell launched by su
<hyperair> crimsun: i've got a patch ready, and am pushing the branch
<crimsun> hyperair: ok, make user to incorporate my latest changes
<hyperair> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pulseaudio/+bug/572391
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 572391 in pulseaudio "01Pulseaudio does nothing" [High,Triaged]
<hyperair> crimsun: i just branched from ~ubuntu-core-dev/pulseaudio or something
<hyperair>   parent branch: bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/pulseaudio/ubuntu/
<hyperair> that
<crimsun> I can't look at it now (work); ping TheMuso if it hasn't been acted on it 12 hours
<hyperair> crimsun: sure.
<hyperair> crimsun: for now i'll just file a merge requet
<hyperair> request*
<crimsun> thanks
<hyperair> crimsun: oh and the script doesn't fail, it just no-ops
<hyperair> crimsun: so suspend/resume still occurs, which is why you don't get a suspend-failure report
<cjwatson> james_w,jml: please initialise source package branches for maverick
<james_w> cjwatson: roger
 * jml breathes a sigh of relief
<jml> (just because I wrote large chunks of the code doesn't mean I know how to use it)
<cjwatson> jml: feel free to instruct us to take your name off https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewReleaseCycleProcess
<cjwatson> starting initial maverick publication now
<jml> cjwatson: will do.
<YokoZar> pitti: There's currently no binary at all so I figured it would be simple but sure I can make a bug link
<YokoZar> Regardless, reuploaded, bug linked https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dssi-vst/+bug/572470
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 572470 in dssi-vst "Needs a rebuild to make binary packages" [Undecided,New]
<cjwatson> pitti: what was the outcome of the discussion on whether to sync from testing or unstable?  I confess I'm not up to date on the mail thread
<b52> hey guys
<cjwatson> pitti: I'm switching MoM over now, but I'll leave it at testing until I hear otherwise
<cjwatson> (since that's the more conservative choice)
<b52> i would like to use notify-osd with arch, but im not sure how to send a notify to get this nice brightness popup with the horizontal bar
<b52> whats the trick?
<hyperair> b52: patch gnome-power-manager.
<b52> i dont use gnome
<hyperair> oh whoops
<hyperair> then i have no idea.
<hyperair> i thought notify-osd was only for GNOME thugh
<hyperair> though*
<cjwatson> doko: chroots aren't ready yet, but lamont should have that going shortly (see #soyuz).  Please go ahead and start uploading toolchain packages
<cjwatson> doko: I'll be away for a few days; any other archive admin can push them through, or indeed in this case I think it's fine for you to push your own uploads through unapproved.  Just get some other admin to approve anything that's NEW, please
<cjwatson> slangasek: for the record, I have done everything up to and including step 21 on NewReleaseCycleProcess; handing off to whoever wants to continue now
<cjwatson> (fed up of mistyping 'maverick' already, but I'm sure I'll get used to it ...)
<arand> cjwatson: Are you in charge of approving non-developer messages on ubuntu-devel mailing list? I sent a request for re-visiting swap-on-file a few days ago, you know how long it normally takes to go through/get rejected?
<cjwatson> arand: I'm one of the moderators, but I'm about to finish for the week
<cjwatson> pretty sure we're already planning to revisit swap-on-file anyway
<JanC> arand: I think mods will look at the queue every couple of days or so
<maxb> What component of the system is in charge of assigning names to partition device nodes (specifically deciding whether they get a 1 or p1 style suffix) ?
<arand> (Augh disconnects!) JanC: cjwatson: Ok, just wanted to make sure, since it'd probably be a good idea if it made it to uds... I was looking through the blueprints yesterday and didn't see any for it, and there wasn't much talk about it for lucid from what I saw....
<ccheney> hmm maverick appeared but then disappeared again
<kees> dang, I keep missing dmart.
<kees> ccheney: just like a meerkat
<ccheney> heh
<ccheney> it was apparenty only there long enough for me to add it to my sources.list and then went away
<cjwatson> ccheney: that's probably just differences between mirrors
<cjwatson> it'll come back eventually
<cjwatson> it's certainly still there on the master
<mvo> YokoZar: could you have a look at bug #571999 when you have a moment?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 571999 in wine1.2 "package wine1.2 (not installed) failed to install/upgrade when both wine and wine1.2 are installed" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/571999
<YokoZar> mvo: it should both conflict and replace it...
<YokoZar> mvo: actually nevermind it's the conflict line that's wrong, it's supposed to be << 1.1
<mvo> thanks :)
<mvo> just stumbled on it when looking at the upgrade reports
<mvo> but I think I did enough of those for today
 * mvo waves
<YokoZar> mvo: wine is just a dummy package anyway at this point.  I suppose an SRU to Wine would fix that...
<YokoZar> surprised this didn't come up earlier
<mannyv> if i wanted to help with an SRU or two where would i look to find candidate packages?
<ccheney> cjwatson: ah ok, yea i see it again now
<Damascene> isn't it a problem with computer januiture that think it can delete everything not in a repository?
<Damascene> if I installed google chrome it will show it ready to clean
<b52> i would like to use notify-osd with arch, but im not sure how to send a notify to get this nice brightness popup with the horizontal bar
<m4t> hi, im trying to debug plymouth; i modified any call to /bin/plymouth or plymouthd in /etc/init to use --debug or --debug-file=, but i don't see any messages or the output file
<m4t> when plymouth comes up, even with radeonfb compiled into a custom kernel, i just get text-mode 'Ubuntu 10.04' and a similarly text-looking progress indicator, no background image. just text on black
<m4t> is there a special boot image (eg. tux) that the ubuntu-generic kernel is using to provide the background? or is it something else i should be looking at
<m4t> would it have to do with the rendering mode plymouth is using? i assumed it was using fb0 all the way, but maybe its using drm?
<gartral> i have a serious question about he i7 CPUs and the way ubuntu handles sensors: why does a chip that only has 4 physical thermo-resistors show 8 seperate tempuratures? isnt this.. impossible..? also, how do i turn off detection of just the 4 HT threads while maintaining a real readout of the actual temps?
<blistov> ubuntu 9.04 or 10.04.  running kernel matches installed headers.  building libipt_NETFLOW (from cvs) against running kernel/headers.  insmod results in "invalid module format".  Idea's?
<crimsun> blistov: generally wrong config.
<crimsun> hyperair: thanks, reviewing
<hyperair> np
<|shad0w|> sorry for crossposting from #ubuntu but I don't think I'll get much help there
<|shad0w|> could i install kubuntu desktoop on ubuntu 9.04 and what size it need on har
<|shad0w|> <|shad0w|> Fast booting in 10.04 seems to be affecting network initialization on one of my network interface. Putting a sleep in pre-up seems to work around the issue but this is a hack. Is there anyway to delay the boot process after udev/module loading?
<|shad0w|> meh, bad copy/paste
#ubuntu-devel 2010-05-01
<arand> Keybuk: ping regarding Bug #571707
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 571707 in mountall "fsck at bootstrap is too slow" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/571707
<Keybuk> arand: what kind of ping?
<arand> Keybuk: We had a discussion regarding it in here before, and since it seemed to be very general (at least three in here reproduced esily)... If you are not already, it might be worth seeing if it's fixable before the general public starts to hit the scheduled fsck:s ...
<arand> Keybuk: If you are the right person to look at it, of course.
<Keybuk> right now is the weekend
<Keybuk> then it's the Canonical SomeHands
<Keybuk> then it's UDS
<Keybuk> you're looking at 2-3 weeks for anyone to look at this
<arand> ...hmm, ok.
<arand> Well, at least we have an easy but extremely non-obvious workaround... I guess that's at least something.
<b52> i run notify-osd with xmonad and no gnome stuff at all, but the font in the bubbles look ugly, any idea why?
<FeasibilityStudy> Since Ubuntu has no easy way to disable services and configure runlevels (like Fedora and OpenSUSE make easy), can anyone give me the low down on how to do this?  I mean I understand the sysv-rc type paradigm but "upstart
<FeasibilityStudy> confuses me
<FeasibilityStudy> and upstart has zero documentation
<FeasibilityStudy> Some of us have limited RAM and this dont need 20 extra services for braille and the like.
<FeasibilityStudy> For instance if I try to use a toold like "bum" or "sysv-rc-conf" they don't work.  They list services as not running when I know they are running.  And others that I uncheck still start at boot.  So, obviously, upstart is screwing it all up.
<cody-somerville> FeasibilityStudy, disabling jobs is a future feature, for now you can just modify the upstart job and comment out the 'start on' line.
<cody-somerville> look in /etc/init/
<crimsun> (I did mention as much in #ubuntu ;-)
<FeasibilityStudy> cody-somerville: Right now I am doing the old "update-rc remove service" command.  Will that suffice?
<crimsun> no, it won't.
<FeasibilityStudy> Well there needs to be better documentation about this!  It's ridiculous.
<jpds> FeasibilityStudy: bug #94065
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 94065 in upstart "init: add non-destructive means to disable a job" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/94065
<FeasibilityStudy> Upstart has ZERo docs I can find.
<cody-somerville> FeasibilityStudy, have you visited http://upstart.ubuntu.com ?
<FeasibilityStudy> Why is there still even an /etc/init.d directory in Ubuntu?
<FeasibilityStudy> If Upstart does away with the init system?
<cody-somerville> for backwards compatibility
<crimsun> note, there are hundreds of packages that use initscripts; it wasn't feasible to migrate them all to upstart semantics
<FeasibilityStudy> Grrr.  I mean I applaud upstart for trying to fix some shortcomings with sysv, but I think it is not helpful to screw the whole init system up by having a hybrid upstart-rc system.  It just confuses everyone.
<cody-somerville> Thats always a great excuse to do nothing.
<FeasibilityStudy> I didnt say do nothing, but I think upstart should wait until the whole system can be converted to it.  Now, we have a hybrid type of deal where the old rc.d stuff doesn't work for upstart services.
<cody-somerville> FeasibilityStudy, We can't force every piece of software out there to convert to upstart jobs
<FeasibilityStudy> Frankly, it is a PITA and is a bigger nuissance than PulseAudio.
<crimsun> change can be stressful.
<cody-somerville> indeed
<cody-somerville> Humans don't like change. That'll never change.
<FeasibilityStudy> Just like Obama's change..ahem..Ok but.
<FeasibilityStudy> I am stressed to tha max..Going crazy! arghh
<cody-somerville> FeasibilityStudy, take a break
<cody-somerville> Getting stressed over something like this is absolutely pointless
<FeasibilityStudy> OK Im calm.  Now, where can I find a list of all the upstart jobs?  And what line do I need to configure again?
<cody-somerville> FeasibilityStudy, all the upstart jobs are in /etc/init/
<crimsun> the upstart jobs, as I mentioned in #ubuntu, are in /etc/init. You can also see their symlinks to /lib/init/upstart-job in /etc/init.d
<FeasibilityStudy> ou can just modify the upstart job and comment out the 'start on' line.  <--------- Where do I find this line?
<cody-somerville> FeasibilityStudy, look in the files. Its at the top.
<cody-somerville> FeasibilityStudy, sometimes the statement spans multiple lines. be sure to comment out the entire statement.
<FeasibilityStudy> In the bluetooth service script I see a "start"
<crimsun> FeasibilityStudy: if you haven't wandered past http://upstart.ubuntu.com/getting-started.html, that is a nice place to start.
<FeasibilityStudy> crimsun: I am there but it seems to be mainly a page about how to develop for upstart
<crimsun> FeasibilityStudy: however, it also describes (albeit briefly) semantics
<FeasibilityStudy> Ok I am looking.. I think I am on the right page..Maybe there is some info.
<crimsun> e.g., it mentions that jobs are defined in /etc/init
<crimsun> it also describes "start on", "stop on", etc.
<FeasibilityStudy> OK where can I find all sysv services on the machine?  I assume they are not in /etc/init.d
<Aquina> I don't see the problem sysv-rc-conf lists everything correctly for me. I assume there's something broken in your system in case it doesn't do this for you.
<df00z1> hey, im trying to build a package for iscsitarget.  the application just uses a makefile, no configure scripts.  i ran dh_make, it built the dir out, but when I try to use debuild, it fails, because the makefile tries to install files in $DISTDIR/usr
<df00z1> in install: build, in rules, i did export DISTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/iscsitarget;$(MAKE) DESTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/iscsitarget install
<df00z1> and it now works.  is that legit? or is there a better way to do it?
<m4t> if you are unsure you could reference another package that uses a configure-less build
<m4t> can't think of any off the top of my head, but they exist
<df00z1> well this one specifically ignores DESTDIR pretty much and instead use DISTDIR
<imbrandon> df00z1: you could always add a debian/patch too that fixes the makefile to do the right thing(tm) and then send the patch to the upstream devs
<m4t> yes the patch sounds better
<kusa> hi
<kusa> i'm vavelin kevin, i'm a student in reunion island
<kusa> i just want to thanks all developpers of ubuntu for their work ^^
<kusa> ubuntu 10.4 is simply, powerfull, fast ;)
<YokoZar> What software gets invoked when I hit a volume key on a laptop?
<YokoZar> (Have a bug there)
<m4t> the keys need to be mapped by xorg, dunno where they go from there
<crimsun> YokoZar: linux, gnome-settings-daemon
<crimsun> and, possibly other bits if you want extra things
<Chipzz> df00z1: minor detail maybe, but I don't think the usage of $(MAKE) is correct there
<Chipzz> $(MAKE) is (I think) intended for usage of recursive make
<Chipzz> debian/rules happens to use make too, but that's a detail; it might as well use a shell script (although I think debian policy dictates the use of a makefile for debian/rules)
<Chipzz> anyway, export FOO=val won't work for Makefiles I think
<Chipzz> although your usage of make FOO=val is correct
<Chipzz> but I suspect it's just a broken Makefile which fails to take DESTDIR into account
<df00z1> dh_make created the $(MAKE)
<df00z1> export did work, but i dont think its correct
<m4t> does anyone know if plymouth needs anything special in the kernel to function properly?
<Chipzz> I doubt dh_make put the export line in there :)
<df00z1> no I did that
<df00z1> ;)
<Chipzz> export does NOT what you think it does
<Chipzz> what export does is
<df00z1> sets an environment var?
<Chipzz> it does, but not within a makefile
<df00z1> odd
<df00z1> it does work, and doesnt without it..
<Chipzz> what really happens is make spawns a subshell ($SHELL), which export's the variable
<df00z1> ah
<Chipzz> but since you actually don't do anything from the subshell, the export isn't actually usfull anywhere
<df00z1> in the makefile's install sections, they do         @install -vD usr/ietd $(DISTDIR)/usr/sbin/ietd
<Chipzz> yes
<df00z1> is there a proper way to set DISTDIR?
<Chipzz> but DESTDIR refers to a *makefile* variable
<Chipzz> not to a shell variable
<df00z1> ah
<Chipzz> you need to do DESTDIR=foo
<Chipzz> or DESTDIR:=foo
<Chipzz> either, don't recall offhand
<df00z1> but the makefile doesnt reference destdir at all
<df00z1> and it doesnt work
<df00z1> it uses distdir
<Chipzz> like I said
<Chipzz> 06:58 < Chipzz> but I suspect it's just a broken Makefile which fails to take DESTDIR into account
<df00z1> yeah
<df00z1> -e, --environment-overrides Give  variables  taken  from the environment precedence over vari- ables from makefiles.
<Chipzz> DESTDIR isn't magical, it's just a convention
<df00z1> i think environment variables cross into makefiles?
<df00z1> according to the manpage
<Chipzz> make sometimes uses variables from the environment it was started from
<Chipzz> but
<df00z1> they dont set DISTDIR inside the makefile
<df00z1> its just blank :\
<df00z1> unless you set it
<Chipzz> "export DISTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/iscsitarget;$(MAKE) DESTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/iscsitarget install"
<Chipzz> note the ;
<Chipzz> those are 2 seperate statements
<df00z1> yeah
<Chipzz> and iirc make will spawns *two* subshells to execute both
<df00z1> hm
<Chipzz> as *seperate* commands in *seperate* subshells
<df00z1> is there a way to pass params to make directly?
<Chipzz> which is why I believe the export doesn't take effect
<Chipzz> yes, the second part
<df00z1> it does take effect...its just not correct...
<Chipzz> cexport DISTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/iscsitarget;$(MAKE) DESTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/iscsitarget install
<df00z1> oh can i set DISTDIR=whatever?
<Chipzz> argh
<df00z1> $(MAKE) DISTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/iscsitarget install
<Chipzz> $(MAKE) DESTDIR=$(CURDIR)/debian/iscsitarget install
<Chipzz> which is where the difference between = and := is significant
<Chipzz> (iirc)
<df00z1> ah
<df00z1> but it ignores destdir and i need distdir to be set :(
<df00z1> unless i redo their makefile
<Chipzz> you're ignoring sth I already said
<Chipzz> 07:03 < Chipzz> DESTDIR isn't magical, it's just a convention
<Chipzz> convention being the operative word
<df00z1> I know...I'm saying D_I_STDIR
<df00z1> not DESTDIR
<df00z1> not a typo
<Chipzz> if your makefile chooses to ignore that convention, then it's broken
<df00z1> yes. it is.
<Chipzz> (fsvo "broken")
<df00z1> run.  Every environment variable that make sees when it starts up is transformed into a make variable with the same name and value.  But an explicit assignment in the makefile, or with a command argument, overrides the environment.
<df00z1> So make will pull in environment variables
<df00z1> i sent the devs an email asking if theres a specific reason they're using DISTDIR...if they don't fix it..i can probably patch it
<df00z1> yuck...
<df00z1> and then have to fix it every time they do an update upstream..
<df00z1> http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/DESTDIR.html  like everything says to use DESTDIR
<k776> Is it known there is a Grub issue with 10.04?
<arand> k776: What kind? Got a Bug #? (nb, I'm not a developer, and this channel might be quiet during the weekend now...)
<k776> The kind that doesn't boot the OS though it installed ok
<k776> Just gives me a black screen
<arand> k776: Well, support goes in #ubuntu, but my general thing is to reinstall grub
<k776> tried #ubuntu. Some helpful people but no luck with their suggestions
<k776> including reinstalling grub
<Damascene> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/572776
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 572776 in ubuntu "Ubuntu should provide update packages for download and use for offline users" [Undecided,New]
<Damascene> don't you think it would be useful to implement
<maco> TheMuso: how do you read pdfs? there's someone saying that orca + [evince|okular|adobe pdf] doesnt work and they have to copy and paste to gedit to get things going. figured youd be the person to ask for info about this
<b52> i run notify-osd with xmonad and no gnome stuff at all, but the font in the bubbles look ugly, any idea why?
<aburch> Hi.  I prepared a patch for LP #572151.  What should I do to get it uploaded to lucid-proposed?  (I'm not a Ubuntu developer.)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 572151 in libanyevent-perl "Tries to overwrite files from anyevent-perl without Replacing it" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/572151
<mdke> aburch: have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
<gangil> hi , I had a general question abt filesystem and Flash memory , is this the right place to ask ?
<Chipzz> probably not
<Chipzz> but you could try
<Chipzz> do take into account that it's a weekend though, so not many ppl here
<gangil> ok , How can I access a file stored on USB ( NAND ) Flash Memory at the the "block(s)" and "pages" level .
<Chipzz> that question doesn't make sense
<Chipzz> and shows you don't understand how linux works :)
<Chipzz> linux has block devices, and filesystem use that as the underlying storage
<Chipzz> linux doesn't care weither the block device is a hard disk or flash memory
<Chipzz> so that part of your question is irrelevant
<Chipzz> second
<Chipzz> you want to access a file
<Chipzz> but you fail to take into account there are several possible file-systems which could be on the block device
<Chipzz> all of which have different layouts and storage strategies
<Chipzz> apart from that, I fail to see why you would want to access a file at the block or pages level in the first place
<Chipzz> there's really very few to none at all good reasons to do so
<Chipzz> unless you're writing a fs defragmenter or sth like readahead, you really don't want to do that
<gangil> hm... ok , basically as far as I knew before you told this , to access a file at that level say from a C program , I would have to use stat()  to get the inode index number , look it up in the indoe table and access it using ioctl() .
<gangil> but since flash memoryis electronic ioctl() is of no use , as ioctl() is primrily used to communicate with the hardware
<Chipzz> but what are you trying to achieve in the first place?
<Chipzz> because 9/10 you are not taking the right approach
<gangil> I basically want to change any random bit in the ECC code of each block the file is stored in
<Chipzz> ^^
<Chipzz> why?
 * gangil someone told me to try this out 
<gangil> help , you can understand this as this is an assignment for me
<Chipzz> to see how well ecc works?
<gangil> yeah , maybe , he told me to do this and I want to make this work
<Chipzz> sigh
<gangil> :-/
<Chipzz> you realize that you are intentionally trying to fuck up your data?
<gangil> no problem
<gangil> I am willing to exp.
<Chipzz> you also realize that this won't even do you any good?
<Chipzz> since ecc is meant to correct hardware failure
<gangil> I realize everything ! :) dont worry
<gangil> I want to know how can I do it
<Chipzz> if you're writing to ecc memory, the checksum bit will change too, as the change is INTENTIONAL?
<Chipzz> this won't help you test ecc one bit...
<gangil> would you tell me how can I do that ?
<Chipzz> I have no idea
<gangil> Chipzz: are you intentionally not telling me , please tell me , I want to do this .
<Chipzz> 15:53 < Chipzz> I have no idea
<gangil> ok , thanks :) for other useful info
<amikrop> Hello, how do I remove the keyboard layout from the systray? I asked in #ubuntu but they didn't know.
<amikrop> Also, that may be a bug, so I thought you should know.
<lbt> hi... I'm seeing problems using initramfs-tools... looks like this issue : http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-fai@uni-koeln.de/msg02954.html
<lbt> I don't think busybox is being put into the initrd - so there's no grep, rm, pidof ...
<lbt> I've managed to get an init=/bin/bash shell and done a manual udevd& udevadm trigger to get a minimal system up
<lbt> oh, this occured during a 9.04->9.10 upgrade
<mathrick> guys, WTF
<mathrick> why does ambiance mess with gconf settings for window buttons?
<mathrick> how the hell does the *GTK+* theme touch my window titlebar settings?
<elleuca> here is yet a bug issued about black screen (no console, no x11) switching back to first session after an user switch?
<psusi> what was the component you want to look at the log output for when inserting a dvd+rw disc in the drive causes it to vanish from nautilus?
<elleuca> I've found a regression in kernel currently available in -proposal; how could/should report it?
<arand> elleuca: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<arand> elleuca: ""In the event of a regression, immediately notify the Ubuntu Technical Board via email, and ask for help on #ubuntu-devel in making urgent contact with a member of the Board or the SRU team: state the problem, the bug number, and ping "(list of names)"""
<mdke> arand: that's the procedure for regressions which get released into -updates, not into -proposed. For -proposed I think it should be sufficient to comment on the relevant bug
<elleuca> arand, mdke see latest comments from myself here https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/362875
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 362875 in linux "rt2x00usb_vendor_request: Error - Vendor Request 0x07 failed for offset 0x308c with error -71." [Undecided,Incomplete]
<mdke> elleuca: see the section "Verification" in that wiki page, steps 1 to 5
<elleuca> mdke, thank, then I'll reboot using kernel from -proposed and I'll file a bug
<mdke> cool
<m4t> anyone using rhythmbox + smb:// uri's w/success?
<elleuca> mdke, cool, using `ubuntu-bug linux` there is a step by step path helping to address the issue
#ubuntu-devel 2010-05-02
 * TheMuso sighs. Redhat writing their own init daemon.
<TheMuso> Or Lennart is at least.
<psusi> who was it that maintains udisks?  got an interesting problem with dvd+rw... it seems udisks is confused by the fact that a blank dvd+rw is not "blank" so it just ignores the media and the drive vanishes from nautilus
<imbrandon> TheMuso: i thought fedora ( and rh by proxy ) used upstart ?
<TheMuso> imbrandon: they do
<imbrandon> TheMuso: hum, then that is diserning
<respire> ideas for ubtuntu
<respire> some guy made a script called rmkernel, it deletes unused kernels since they hog space its very simple
<respire> ubuntu should do it on boot and if nobody used a kernel for a week ask them if they want to delete it or to never ask again
<respire> (skip with timeout)
<respire> also there was this program i saw that was supposed to help delete unused ubuntu programs
<respire> it was awful, rubbish a total failure
<respire> im prepared to help and in fact mostly write a replacement if someone else will too :)
<respire> why is there no services config tool for the sysv stuff
<respire> you could make a gui for that easy
<psusi> pitti, finally got those logs you asked for in bug #558926
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 558926 in udisks "Open files on ejected media cause automount of new media to break" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/558926
<George_E> Hey, just wanted to thank everyone for making Ubuntu 10.04 a tremendous success!
<George_E> You guys rock!
<George_E> Lucid boots in literally 10 seconds on my computer - compare that to Vista which takes > 5 minutes.
<jdong> George_E: glad to hear! believe it or not there's STILL room to improve with our bootup sequence!
<George_E> Really.... I didn't think that was possible. Well, keep up the good work. Love the new look too!
<jdong> George_E: http://jdong.mit.edu/~jdong/ureadahead-pack.svg this image is a semi-accurate look at the files being accessed while booting, on a fresh Ubuntu Lucid setup
<jdong> George_E: so... once we figure out a way to "defragment" (move all those files to one spot on disk), you can expect another speedup
<George_E> Oh good. Also shutdown time is wicked fast. Vista takes around 1:30 - 2 minutes to shutdown... :(
<virtuald> on a fresh install?
<George_E> Well... not exactly.
<jdong> virtuald: yeah, I did 3 more fresh installs just to verify
<jdong> George_E: well we should actually give Vista a bit of credit for the bootup/shutdown systems
<George_E> How so?
<jdong> George_E: Vista actually has an AI algorithm for placing blocks on disk next to each other to minimize seeking
<jdong> George_E: and Windows has had a parallel bootup (like Upstart does for us) since NT.
<jdong> George_E: the reason Vista is slow is likely because it's close to 20GB while we're 2GB or so altogether...
<jdong> if you normalize to that size discrepancy, I bet Vista is achieving faster MB/s disk reads at bootup
<jdong> though that doesn't excuse its monstrous size
<George_E> Vista has a lot of legacy support too. That has an effect on startup time.
<jdong> it loads a lot more services too
<jdong> but I do feel their bootup and application launch systems are somewhat "smarter" than us, though now we've got most of the tools needed to catch up
<jdong> as soon as the EXT4 defragmentation API stabilizes a bit more, we're in business
<George_E> Yes. Ext4 is a nice step forward.
<jdong> that graph was generated with data from our existing bootup accelerator (ureadahead)...
<virtuald> so you're working on bug 1 :)
<ubottu> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1 (Timeout)
<jdong> so we already KNOW exactly which blocks needs to be moved together
<George_E> ubottu: Haha. That is a *real* bug.
<virtuald> jdong: does this affect ssd's at all (performance wise)?
<jdong> virtuald: it certainly does...
<jdong> virtuald: SSDs have some minimal block size which is fairly large, sometimes as big as a couple hundred KB's
<virtuald> o.O
<jdong> virtuald: the smallest unit you can ask it to read is a "block"
<jdong> so if you've got a bunch of text files that have configuration data stored everywhere on the disk...
<jdong> you might be reading WAY more data than you really need to
<virtuald> i see
<jdong> so I think a combination of good placement on disk + proactive/predictive prefetching into cache is important for everyone
<ion> jdong: And after that, reordering blocks based on post-boot usage patterns as well. :-)
<jdong> ion: yup indeed.
 * George_E is not so sure SSDs are all they're cracked up to be :)
<jdong> George_E: they're expensive and kinda sorta band-aid our current seek performance grief
<jdong> George_E: but I honestly don't see any reason why everyone needs to be moving to SSD's
<jdong> George_E: I think optimally, SSDs should play a role like ZFS's L2ARC cache hierarchy
<jdong> where fast SSDs sit in front of a slower but larger HDD pool
<jdong> and a good replacement algorithm selects the best data to place in the SSDs
<George_E> They have benefits (lower seek times, etc.) but they're not perfect (slower write times, etc.).
<jdong> George_E: huge cost disadvantage, larger block size, uneven wearing issues, unproven reliability track record, and so on :)
<George_E> The uneven wearing issue is my biggest concern. (And a concern with all flash-based devices)
<jdong> George_E: yes and the algorithms that take care of that seem to nullify quite a bit of the SSD performance advantage over time
<temugen> jdong: as an L2ARC the reliability/wearing wouldn't be as much of an issue if replacement were easy
<temugen> of course that doesn't justify the cost factor any more
<jdong> temugen: and hopefully the L2ARC algorithm wouldn't be finicky to keep replacing its contents :)
<George_E> If you need fast access to non-system data, you can always use a ramdisk... but for system use... hmmm.
<jdong> George_E: well the ramdisk effect is what RAM caching is supposed to do
<jdong> George_E: the L2ARC would be a second level of cache that sits between RAM and mechanical disks
<George_E> True. Though it's only on a small scale.
<Damascene> hi, joaopinto
<joaopinto> hello Damascene
<Damascene> did any one add a session about the vte issue?
<TrueTom> Is there a way to offer the installation of a package based on an udev event / newly pluged-in USB device?
<RAOF> TrueTom: That's a fine question.  I'm pretty sure the answer is âyesâ, but you'd need to write the udev rule.  A logical place to put a generalisation of this code (if it isn't there already) would be Jockey.
<Damascene>  /j #launchpad
<TrueTom> RAOF: Hm, the "branding" of Jockey suggest to only use it for proprietary drivers... I want to install 'irda-utils' when an USB-IrDA device is pluged-in, which would look weird since it's free...
<switchgirl> anyone found a fix for Bug 569543
<switchgirl> it's very urgent
<ubottu> Error: Could not parse data returned by Launchpad: The read operation timed out (https://launchpad.net/bugs/569543)
<switchgirl> well?
<switchgirl> i guess not
<jpds> !weekend
<ubottu> It's a weekend. Often on weekends the paid developers and a lot of the community may not be around to answer your question. Please be patient, wait longer than you normally would or try again during the working week.
<mdke> switchgirl: that could be bug 552227 - there is a workaround described in the comments there, give it a try and mark your bug as a duplicate of that if it works
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 552227 in gwibber "gwibber-accounts crashed with KeyError in get_account_data()" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/552227
<mdke> switchgirl: if it's not the same, then you'll need to wait for the developers to fix it unless you can find a fix yourself
<switchgirl> mdke, umm i tried deleting the couch
<switchgirl> nothing happened
<mdke> switchgirl: this was the workaround I had in mind - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gwibber/+bug/552227/comments/55
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 552227 in gwibber "gwibber-accounts crashed with KeyError in get_account_data()" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<mdke> switchgirl: not sure if it's the same issue you have or not though
<switchgirl> mdke, no it's not i can auth facebook
<switchgirl> not do the next step
<switchgirl> ie not create the account
<switchgirl> same with twitter
<switchgirl> not with flikr
<switchgirl> i use google dns
<mdke> switchgirl: I wondered if the cause might have been the same. Anyway, I don't know much about gwibber so can't help further
<switchgirl> ok mdke where can i poke the dev's?
<mdke> switchgirl: you can try #ubuntu-desktop during a working day, I guess. But it's one among many other bugs so if you don't have a fix, you'll have to be patient
<switchgirl> mdke, its a buggy anoying thing for fresh install's of ubuntu that loads are coming across
<mdke> switchgirl: there are plenty of such bugs, I'm afraid. We have 85000 bugs, with over 1000 ascribed with "High" importance
<mdke> gwibber seems to have quite a few crashes unfortunately
<switchgirl> mdke, i dunno whyit was included in the 10.4 release then
<kklimonda> because it's linux and now windows. we include stuff that mostly works and let users help test it. (my personal opinion, probably noy an official one ;) )
<kklimonda> and not*
<mdke> kklimonda: not really - the focus of a long-term support release like this one is stability. Probably the reason is that gwibber mostly works for those people who tested it
<kklimonda> mdke: is it realle stability? I know it's supposed to be but the amount of changes (or maybe their nature) that has been pushed into this LTS says otherwise. it does seem to me that we use users as testers, which I personally don't mind. gwibber mostly working (because it does work for me most of the time indeed) looks like an example - users are going to test it and we'll have more data to fix
<kklimonda> it in the 10.10 release.
<imbrandon> yes its really stability , there will always be cases that arent caught, change != not stable
<joaopinto> kklimonda, I agree with you, there were a significant changes on this release which increase the likely of problems, but I don't see how it could have been done better, not keeping the release goals and schedule
<joaopinto> it has been stable for most people involved in the development phase
<joaopinto> anyone noted a bug report about the gnome theme randomly failing to be set on the first login ?
<Bernardo> hi all
<Bernardo> I am trying to port the patches for the poulsbo drivers and xorg 1.7.x from mandriva to lucid, but I am stuck initializing DRI. Anyone can help me?
<imbrandon> Bernardo: you might try #ubuntu-x ( and durring the week for even better response )
<Bernardo> imbrandon: thanks!
<imbrandon> Bernardo: np
<anil> Hi All
<anil> this is my first time here
<anil> I wanted to know, if Ubuntu 10.04 LTS now support Indian Languages natively? Thanks
<anil> Also any GUI builder recommended for ppl coming from Windows Dev to Linux Dev? Thanks
<joaopinto> Hello anil, the best channel for support in #ubuntu :)
<imbrandon> anil: as far as the dev gui builder try monodevelop ( sudo apt-get install monodevelop ) but there are lots of them
<anil> thanks Imbrandon and joapinto
<anil> sorry got into the wrong room
<anil> Cheers!
<joaopinto> anil, check the quickly project, I personally don't recommend monodevelop, my tests shown itsn't not stable
<joaopinto> erm, gone
<joaopinto> or is it quicky
<imbrandon> quickly
<joaopinto> ops :)
<imbrandon> but monodevelop isnt stable ? really ? i use it every day without issue
<joaopinto> imbrandon, go to help, search for ()
<joaopinto> the last time I have tried it crashed, the bug is open for more than 1 year :)
<joaopinto> I didn't test run it on lucid yet
<Laney> works here
<joaopinto> ok, time to check it, maybere there is an usable RAD tool now :P
<joaopinto> Laney, thanks for testing
<joaopinto> time to close the bug
<joaopinto> still not stable, 1 minute to find a new bug, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/55823/screenshot_002_3WwGI6.png
<joaopinto> on a plain solution creation wizard
<joaopinto> imbrandon, http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/55824/screenshot_003_9BOWZ8.png <- I am missing something at the top :) ?
<joaopinto> am I...
<BAKTUN> Help! Ubuntu 10.04-64.bit - exFAT driver link please. My English is not good. Please Help.
<MachinTrucChose> hiya
<BAKTUN> Do not help me?
<MachinTrucChose> Not sure if this is the right channel to discuss Ubuntu suggestions. Is it? I'm trying to gauge the feasability of something.
<MachinTrucChose> and I don't think the people in the main channel would be the sort to udnerstand the technical difficulties
<micahg> !brainstorm
<ubottu> Post your ideas for Ubuntu at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com and vote for the ones you like!
<MachinTrucChose> that's probably for the better, yeah
<MachinTrucChose> is the brainstorm account list separate from the ubuntuforums one?
<MachinTrucChose> evidently
<MachinTrucChose> allright thanks for your help
<xaver__> Hello all, hello Keybuk i have the problem with mountall too. I tryed to use your fix (2.15~ppa1) but nothing changed :( I use 64bit kubuntu, i tryed the standard kernel and 2.6.33 and i use cryptdisks-early. At the moment i use the whorst fix (dpkg --force-depends -i mountall_1.0.2_amd64.deb). The Problem startet with the update to 2.14.
#ubuntu-devel 2011-04-25
<trinikrono> hi guys i am helping on a bug 701060 and i think it affects plymouth, is there any procedure to debug plymouth bugs?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 701060 in Ubuntu "Boot failure" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/701060
 * hyperair wonders how the overlay scrollbar works.
<hyperair> it seems to be a standalone library, with no rdepends
<hyperair> so how is it that some applications seem to use it, and some don't?
<kklimonda> hyperair: afair it has a whitelist, or maybe a blacklist.
<kklimonda> (it's loaded dynamically by Gtk+ so nothing has to depend on it, afair ubuntu-desktop recommends overlay-scrollbar package)
<hyperair> kklimonda: it doesn't recommend.
<hyperair> oh wait it does
<hyperair> i guess apt-cache rdepends no longer lists recommends
<hyperair> oh wait, it does, i just didn't rdepends on the correct package.
<hyperair> hmm dynamically loaded. no wonder nothing seems to refer to it.
<IanLiu> I'm trying to compile Unity, but I'm getting this error when running cmake: "Could not find module FindCompix.cmake". Any hints?
<sladen> IanLiu: sudo apt-get build-dep unity
<IanLiu> sladen: thanks!
<sladen> iulian: did it work?
<iulian> No, unfortunately.  I'm trying really hard though. :)
<sladen> iulian: you should be able to do  sudo apt-get build-dep unity && apt-get source unity && cd unity-*/ && debuild -b && sudo dpkg -i ../unity-*.deb
<iulian> The guy left, sladen.
 * sladen blinks.  Been playing Scabble too much
<iulian> Heh. :)
<akgraner> apw you around - I have a question about a fail I just got when I was updating...
<mterry> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Beta-2 released | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  maverick | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots: mterry
<nobuto> mterry: Could you review my debdiff on Bug #769827?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 769827 in poppler (Ubuntu) "poppler cannot parse font weight "Medium"" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/769827
<mterry> nobuto, sure
<mterry> nobuto, so, this looks fine, but it's too late for natty.  this sounds like something that is affecting a lot of people?  We could apply for an SRU for natty...
<nobuto> mterry: In Japanese locale, many people affected. but I don't know how many on other locales.
<mterry> nobuto, an entire nation of speakers is a lot  :)
<mterry> nobuto, so I can do a bit of the paperwork for an SRU if you like, and note that I approve of the patch in the bug (once I test it)
<nobuto> mterry: I would like to ask that.
<mterry> sure, am starting now
<nobuto> mterry: Thanks.
<nobuto> mterry: I would like to explain again on how many affected. In Japan, GothicBBB-"Medium" is widely and popularly used, so most of Japanese people affected. In other locales, it depends on whether popularly used font's name contains "Medium" weight. BTW it takes time to write up this. It's difficult to explain in English with my language-ability ;)
<mterry> nobuto, understood.  Thanks for your patch and help so far!
<nobuto> mterry: You're welcome.
<eitch0000> hi everyone. I've got some weird problems with natty. When using Bibble5 it crashes with a segfault and I see many errors regarding "wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64". First I thought it was the applications problem, but then I saw this happening in other applications as well. Is this a known issue? The applications are 64-bit and worked find in 64 bit maverick.
<mterry> nobuto, just an update (though you can also see it in the bug): I've updated your patch to be suitable for an SRU and subscribed the ubuntu-sru team, who will approve or deny it
<mterry> nobuto, and once oneiric opens, hopefully a member of ubuntu-sponsors will upload your original patch
<dobey> is it absolutely too late to fix something on the 11.04 cd? :)
<SpamapS> Hrm.. mdadm doesn't start on boot in the latest ISO's
<maco> geser, cody-somerville, bdrung_:  *poke about cyphermox's email application*
<geser> maco: going through my mails right now
<eitch0000> hi everyone. I've got some weird problems with natty. When using Bibble5 it crashes with a segfault and I see many errors regarding "wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64". First I thought it was the applications problem, but then I saw this happening in other applications as well. Is this a known issue? The applications are 64-bit and worked find in 64 bit maverick.
<maco> eitch0000: search http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs to see if it's a known issue
<maco> eitch0000: just to check...your current system is also 64bit right?
<eitch0000> maco, yes, it is
<arand> eitch0000: Just a guess, is the application 32bit? If you run "readelf -h ./binaryapp" Ddoes it say 32 or 64?
 * maco wonders if it's related to multiarch
<eitch0000> ara, ok, that is weird. The download page said it was the 64 bit version. I'll have to check that because readelf actually does say it has class ELF32...
<arand> eitch0000: Right, so then presumably it gets confused abouth e where and how in /lib /lib32 /lib64
<eitch0000> arand, ok. I'll check this and see if I can find the right 64 bit version
<arand> eitch0000: If you use ldd you should hopefully be able to figure out which files it is looking for...
<arand> And possibly install the ia32 libraries...
<eitch0000> ok
<eitch0000> arand, the ia32-libs are installed. I reinstalled the 64-bit app and it really installs 32 bit binaries. ldd shows a couple of missing libraries... Thanks for the help. I'll have to get back to this later
<bdrung_> maco: will do that at the meeting tonight. i will probably be late this meeting (maybe a half hour)
 * maco hopes there's enough for quorum
<geser> bdrung_: thanks for reminding me about the meeting, totally forgot about it
 * stgraber will be there
<maco> its in a bit over an hour, right?
<stgraber> yep
<stgraber> 3pm EDT
<Laney> . o O ( I did send an email reminder )
<omac> Hi there, I've got 3 tablets just itching for ubuntu on them. RK2818, Tegra 2 T20, and Tegra 250 SMP.  I am looking to get linux4tegra, but I still haven't gotten a response for that yet from nvidia.
<maco> Laney: my PM might pull me out near the beginning of the meeting, fyi
<Laney> hopefully we'll have enough to carry on
<Laney> today isn't a public holiday in the US?
<mterry> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Beta-2 released | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  maverick | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots:
<pozic> ikonia: do you always ban people that tell you to stop annoying users?
<ikonia> pozic: please don't take offtopic discussion in here
<pozic> ikonia: especially those that know better than you?
<ikonia> pozic: this channel is for ubuntu development discussion,
<Pici> pozic: You can join #ubuntu-ops if you want to discuss your ban.
<charlie-tca> Laney: not a US Holiday.
<bdmurray> Riddell: Have you seen anything like bug 768641?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 768641 in Amarok "amarok lost collection after update to Natty" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/768641
<maco> bdmurray: i think i hit that
<bdmurray> maco: that seems rather bad to me
<Riddell> bdmurray: I haven't no
<gaurav_pawaskar> Hi guys. I have a problem in packaging
<gaurav_pawaskar> after dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot command..
<arand> gaurav_pawaskar: Depending on the application #ubuntu-motu or #ubuntu-packaging might be more apropriate.
<gaurav_pawaskar> ok thank you arand
#ubuntu-devel 2011-04-26
<ohsix> hallyn: thanks for the movement on the cgroup stuff
<hallyn> ohsix: np
<ohsix> hallyn: fwiw re: the ktreadd thing, the default policy it moves them into could just mime the default in the kernel wrt to rt & limits
<ohsix> then the config will have some contents but be a no-op
<ohsix> and could contain a warning about kthreadd in particular & that other threads might be just as much trouble to mess with
<hallyn> ohsix: i sort of like the idea of just refusing to move it into a cgrou pif it's called [.*].
<hallyn> (and is parented by init)
<ohsix> i'm pretty sure you can set it up to ignore kernel threads too
<hallyn> yeah.  i think that's safer
<hallyn> i just figure there are actual people who 'own' the code so i'll avoid stepping on toes.  I should go see if dhaval wants to do it
<ohsix> ya
<ohsix> if i moved the conf out of the way or made the daemon that moved threads not start i could have it installed, it just didn't do anything, it would be nice if the default config could be a jump off point
<ohsix> (assuming no code changes)
<evaluate> Hello.
<evaluate> There is a pretty serious bug in ubuntu natty for the program 'clipit' which can be solved with a tiny patch. Is there any chance that such a patch might be included before the final release of natty?
<RAOF> evaluate: It's in Universe, so: maybe.  At this point, though, it's basically an SRU.  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyReleaseSchedule says âunseeded universe freezeâ is today.
<RAOF> evaluate: What is the bug?
<evaluate> RAOF, bug #702316
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 702316 in clipit (Ubuntu) "Generic Libindicate fallback support breaks applications (such as clipit) on non-Unity WMs/DEs" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/702316
<evaluate> RAOF, and this is the needed patch: http://pastebin.com/pSkj0zvE
<evaluate> If you say there's no chance for it making it before the release, I can do it the 'normal' way. That is, make a upload to Debian and then request a sync.
<pitti> Good morning
<RAOF> Morning pitti!
<RAOF> evaluate: My IRC decided to timeout; could you throw up the bug again?
<pitti> hey RAOF, how are you? had some nice holidays?
<evaluate> RAOF, bug #702316
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 702316 in clipit (Ubuntu) "Generic Libindicate fallback support breaks applications (such as clipit) on non-Unity WMs/DEs" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/702316
<RAOF> pitti: One holiday too few; all the other Aussies have today off, too ;)
<RAOF> But yeah.  Nice holidays.
<RAOF> Featuring much lazing around in bed.
<RAOF> And jml is down in Hobart, too, and we got to catch up.
<pitti> RAOF: heh, I hardly got any sleep :)
<RAOF> evaluate: That particular bug should be fixable, even post-release.  That patch looks like it'll leak objects, though?
<RAOF> evaluate: A Debian upload + sync will get the fix in Oneric, though.
<evaluate> RAOF, not sure, that's what tedg from #ayatana suggested for fixing the bug.
 * RAOF has a sudden realisation that it's possible he should be patch piloting today.  Why has evolution not fired off a notification?
<evaluate> RAOF, Oneric?
<RAOF> evaluate: Natty+1; What we'll all be working on in ~3 days :)
<evaluate> ohh.
<RAOF> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Beta-2 released | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  maverick | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots: RAOF
<didrocks> good morning
<RAOF> Howdie didrocks.  Good holidays?
<didrocks> RAOF: yeah, only 3 days here, but was nice, thanks! :-) and you?
<RAOF> Pretty good.
<RAOF> A little bit annoyed that the other Aussies have today off, too :)
<RAOF> But there was boardgames with jml, lazing around in bed, and general fun.
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> hey dholbach
<dholbach> hey pitti
<Saamm> plz plz fix this nasty apt bug--> Bug #768901
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 768901 in apt-xapian-index (Ubuntu) "update-apt-xapian-index crashed with SystemError in open(): E:Encountered a section with no Package: header, E:Problem with MergeList /var/lib/apt/lists/extras.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_natty_main_binary-i386_Packages, E:The package lists or status file could not be parsed or opened." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/768901
<dholbach> Saamm, it looks like your provider redirected you because they had some breakage somewhere - it's hardly xapian's fault that it can't parse a HTML file :)
<dholbach> Saamm, try moving the file away to some other place and try again
<Saamm> my provider does this whenever i am disconnected....4-5 time in 24 hours
<dholbach> Saamm, can you try moving the file away to see if that makes it work again?
<Saamm> there are six extras.ubuntu.com files...should i move them all?
<RAOF> Yes.
<Saamm> ok trying
<tumbleweed> someone came into our loco channel yesterday, whose apt (on a headless server) was getting HTML because he'd entered an incorrect password in his DSL router. Providers are getting more user-friendly and software-unfriendly :/
<Saamm> thanks guys you solved my problem...moving files helped :D
<dholbach> the only solution for apt I can think of is to try to parse the file before saving it
<Saamm> dholbach, yep that will work
<dholbach> the question is what you should do if it's not parseable
<tumbleweed> having users manually delete files in /var/lib/apt/lists is probably not that good an idea
<tumbleweed> err, ... having to ...
<dholbach> sure, totally - but depending on the frontend for apt you use you might want to have a different kind of notification/reaction
<Saamm> dholbach, automatic correction notification ---> 'These files could not be parsed. Do you want to move them at a separate location? Apt will automatically recreate them and update your system'
<dholbach> so it's not a "quick fix" that's going to work for all of them
<Saamm> yes or no
<dholbach> let's wait until mvo is here :)
<Saamm> whos mvo?
<dholbach> probably the guy who knows apt and friends best
<Saamm> ok
<slangasek> isn't that a non-issue for signed repositories?
<slangasek> i.e., passing two html files to gpg won't get you an "ok" response
<slangasek> so apt shouldn't be accepting those as valid Packages files anyway in such a case
 * Hobbsee discovers the answer to the question of "what can possibly go wrong?" for an ubuntu install
<StevenK> s/install/upgrade/
<Hobbsee> Failure to bring up ethernet after dist-upgrade wasn't the answer I was expecting
<janimo> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Beta-2 released | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  maverick | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots: RAOF, janimo
<janimo> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Beta-2 released | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  maverick | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots: RAOF
<RAOF> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Beta-2 released | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  maverick | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots:
<Ja23> Hello
<Ja23> I just installed 11.04, but my shell is still GNOME not Unity... how can I change this?
<pitti> Ja23: you can select the session type in the login screen after you select your user name
<pitti> in the bottom panel
<Ja23> pitti: Yeah, I tried that
<Ja23> pitti: The "desktop edition"  is not there, I think it has something to do with ATI Radeon drivers, but I've installed all of them
<pitti> Ja23: the session is "Ubuntu"
<Ja23> in Italics
<Ja23> or Ubuntu Classic
<Ja23> not in italics
<pitti> the one in italics is the default session
<janimo> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Beta-2 released | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  maverick | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots: janimo
<Ja23> Hello, I'm back
<Ja23> No change
<seb128> Ja23, what videocard and driver do you use?
<Ja23> seb128: I have a Radeon HD 5600, I've installed the additional drivers
 * dholbach hugs janimo
 * janimo hugs dholbach 
<dholbach> :)
<Ja23> seb128:  When I first turned on my computer it gave me lots of errors about there being no 3d driver and that unity wouldn't work, but now that i've gottten the drivers how do I turn Unity back on?
<seb128> Ja23, by selecting "Ubuntu" in the gdm screen
<seb128> if it doesn't work it might mean that your videocard can't run it
<seb128> did you restart your computer after installing the drivers?
<pitti> my wife's ATI card (r6xx) runs unity just fine with the free drivers, too
<Ja23> seb128: gdm screen?  I've chosen "ubuntu" on the login screen a couple times
<Ja23> Hmm
<seb128> ok, so it's likely your card doesn't support unity
<RAOF> The binary fglrx drivers *were* having problems earlier in the cycle.
<seb128> try running the unity_support_test helper by hand and see what it says
<RAOF> And by "earlier" I mean "like a couple of weeks ago".  I'm not sure if we've got an updated fglrx since then.
<Ja23> I tried running unity_support_test and got "segmentation fault"
<seb128> Ja23, did you restart the computer since you installed fglrx?
<seb128> Ja23, can you run it with gdb and pastebin the crash backtrace?
<Ja23> I'm restarting just to find out
<Ja23> restarted, still no unity
<RAOF> Ja23: And unity_support_test still segfaults?
<Ja23> yep
<Ja23> RAOF: yep
<seb128> could you pastebin a stacktrace?
<seb128> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Backtrace
<seb128> well just basically run gdb ... and type run
<seb128> then "bt" when it segfaults
<Ja23> so I ran gdp
<Ja23> but how do I run the program?
<Ja23> unity_support_test
<Ja23> I get "no executable file specified"
<Ja23> better half is waiting, I have to go to dinner, leave me some advice, I'll be back to read it in a few hours
<Ja23> Thanks so much for your help!
<RAOF> Ja23: You want to run âgdb /usr/lib/nux/unity_support_testâ and then type ârunâ at the gdb prompt to run the program.  Presumably it'll then crash, and you can type âbtâ to grab the backtrace.
<ogra_> hmm, using lzma for compressing the initrd in natty gets me weird results
<ogra_> if i just use update-initramfs with COMPRESSION=lzma in the config, i cant boot at all
<ogra_> if i use gzip as compression method, uncompress the initrd and recompress manually with lzma -z, all boots fine
<ogra_> seems a bit like lzma behaves differently if something gets piped to it vs calling it with a filename to compress
<ogra_> cjwatson, is there any reason we dont use initramfs-tools' lzma mode in livecd-rootfs (and instesad recompress a gzipped initrd) ?
<cjwatson> ogra_: no idea
<cjwatson> ogra_: it was years ago, maybe it didn't have that mode
<ogra_> oh, i thought .lz inirds only came recently
<ogra_> *initrds
<ogra_> (on the live images i mean)
<ogra_> i think there is a bug in initramfs-tools with it, lzma is called completely without options in mkinitrd
<cjwatson> IIRC needing to use -S '' in some cases
<cjwatson> or something like that
<ogra_> well, livecd-rootfs uses -9c
<ogra_> manually i just used -z ... in any case i cant boot anything that was rolled without options to lzma
<ogra> cjwatson, heh, in streamed (piped) mode lzma doesnt add the filesize to the header so the kernel wont load the initrd, in non-streamed i have a size (according to file)
<infinity> ogra: That does make a certain amount of sense.  Streams don't have filesizes.  Shame on the kernel for seemingly requiring that in its decompressor, though.
<ogra> infinity, well, i'm playing with my own (tegra2) kernel ... might be my fault, though i took one of our distro configs as base and dont really think i'm missing anything
<infinity> ogra: I can't imagine that there's a kernel config option that says "make my initrd require an obscure compression header", so I imagine the fault isn't yours. :P
<ogra> heh, k :)
<infinity> ogra: But if it's the case that initramfs-tools-generated lzma images don't work, while it's probably a kernel bug, we should fix it in initramfs too.  Conservative in what you create, liberal in what you accept, yadda, yadda.
<chrisccoulson> SpamapS, could I have an ack for bug 770719? like the firefox bug you looked at last week, this one would go out via natty-security with the next firefox point-release (if there is one. if there isn't, then we'll just do the usual route through natty-proposed)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 770719 in firefox (Ubuntu Natty) "Dutch localization doesn't include Firefox Dutch spell checker add-on" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/770719
<ogra> well, i see that livecd-rootfs seems to create a streamed lzma file and our live x86 images apparently work
<chrisccoulson> i'm not sure why nobody picked this up earlier in the cycle :(
<infinity> ogra: Hrm?  I thought you said livecd-rootfs was re-compressing a gzip initrd?
<ogra> it does, but still from a stream
<infinity> Oh, so the stream thing may be a red herring.
<ogra> i can boot if i manually uncompress the gzipped file and use lzma on that ... i cant boot if i pipe to lzma
<ogra> looking at both results with file shows me size info on one but not the other file
<infinity> Kay, that seems like normal behaviour though.  Streams don't have sizes.
<infinity> Nailing down what makes the initramfs-tools-generated one even more different would be nice.
<JanC> not sure this came through before I lost my connection --> you mean the compressed size?  it obviously *can't* add that to a *header* when streaming...
<infinity> JanC: Yes, as noted.
<infinity> JanC: But it doesn't seem that's his problem anyway.
<ogra> well, its non std HW with a non STD kernel and bootloader .. the worrying part is that i can boot one but not the other, the only real difference in creation is that one is streamed, the other isnt
<ogra> and even when creating a streamed one manually it doesnt boot
<JanC> maybe the kernel-implementation for lzma decompression requires the size ?
<infinity> ogra: But if you zcat | lzma a gzip one, it works?
<ogra> no
<ogra> that creates a streamed file
<infinity> Oh, kay.  I misread above where I thought you said that worked, but initramfs-tools didn't.
<infinity> Kay.
<infinity> But, on the other hand, the livecds use a pipe too.
<ogra> if i zcat > <file> && lzma -z <file> it works
<infinity> Are you using the same switches?
<ogra> yes, thats what bothers me
<infinity> zcat | lzma -9c
<ogra> it also tried with the same switches, no go
<infinity> *scratch head*
<ogra> also tried -zc (which might be redundant)
<ogra> as well as just -c and no option at all (the latter is what initramfs-tools uses)
<infinity> Does the streamed and in-place compression result in a file of reasonably similar size?
<infinity> Could be running into a hardware/firmware issue that's entirely unrelated to the kernel.
<ogra> about 1-2 bytes difference
<infinity> Kay, scratch that.
<ogra> my bootloader tool would complain if its to big
<infinity> ARM hardware?
<ogra> if i flash it to the SD
<ogra> yep
<ogra> ac100 netbook, tegra2
<infinity> Which bootloader does it use?
<infinity> I wonder if it's one of the few that "cleverly" decompresses the initrd internally and passes a raw image to the kernel.
<ogra> its something fastboot based
<infinity> And maybe it's the bootloader's failure here, not the kernel.
<ogra> reads the files from an SD partition where the binary bits have to live in certain places ...
<infinity> ogra: Any chance you could experiment by stripping a driver or two our of the initrd, then recompressing?
<infinity> ogra: I'm still tempted to blame size and call the streaming thing a red herring.
<ogra> you mean make it smaller ?
<infinity> Yes. :P
 * ogra drops FRAMEBUFFER=y from the initrd options to drop plymouth 
<infinity> That would do it.
<ogra> that should gain me a few M
<cjwatson> infinity: boot loader decompressing initrd> *boggle*
<cjwatson> and people complain about GRUB having too many features
<infinity> cjwatson: You've obviously not played much in the scary embedded world.  Bootloaders do all sorts of stupid things.
<infinity> cjwatson: The only misfeature GRUB appears to have is failing entirely to boot my netbook on every 4th attempt.
<ScottK> It's only a misfeature if upstream doesn't have it in for you personally.
<ion> !away | bjf
<ubottu> bjf: Please do not use noisy away messages and nicks in Ubuntu channels. It is annoying and unnecessary. Use the command "/away <reason>" to set your client away silently. See also Â«/msg ubottu GuidelinesÂ»
<ogra> infinity, wow, weird. seems to boot with the 1.8M streamed initrd
<bjf> ion, mind your own business
<infinity> ogra: Bingo.
<cjwatson> infinity: score.  one of those things that's a pain to debug other than in person
<ogra> it doesnt work with the 4.2M streamed one, but works with the 4.2M one thats non streamed
<infinity> ogra: Not that this tells me yet where the bug lies, but it tells us the streaming thing was a red herring.
<ogra> well, seems streaming has some influence if i get to the edge of things
<ScottK> bjf: Personally I don't care about the away messages since I filter them, but that's an unreasonably hostile response as such requests are consistent with the channel's rules.
<ogra> though 4.2 shouldnt actually hit the edge yet
<infinity> ogra: Or, rather, the streaming thing is likely a data point that we were misinterpreting.  The header is irellevant, but decompression utilities need more memory to decompress streams.
<ogra> ah, yeah, that might be it
<infinity> ogra: So, even if the initrds are the same size, you may still be running into either a platform or kernel constraint with the streamed version.
<ogra> well, then rolling it un-streamed from initramfs-tools still makes sense i think
<infinity> ogra: Oh, I'd agree that changing the behaviour for both initramfs-tools and livecd-rootfs is a good idea here anyway, erring on the side of caution, but I'd be curious to nail the actual bug.
<infinity> ogra: Do you have a kernel source tree lying around?
<infinity> ogra: Ancient bug, and I'd like to THINK the fix was upstreamed, but can you check that some variation of the patch in https://dev.openwrt.org/ticket/3488 shows up in our source?
<ogra> infinity, http://gitorious.org/ac100/  the marvin chromium tree from there
<infinity> ogra: s/our/your/
<kees> infinity: hi! nice to see you :)
<infinity> ogra: Either way, though, even if the kernel is now doing sane and wonderful things (and I hope it is), there's only so much you can do on some of these embedded platforms to deal with early-boot memory constraints.  A lot of them really aren't keen on lighting up much/any of the system until later in the process.
<infinity> kees: Oh hai.
<sconklin> ScottK: can you point me to the channel rules?
<ogra> infinity, yeah, on the ac100 its actually a shame ... i have two boot partitions (android kernel and android recovery) on an 8G MMC that the bootloader holds the partition table for ... i cant repartition at all (and there are several partitions on the device that are even hidden from the kernel completely
<ogra> )
<ScottK> There's a link to them when you /join.
<SpamapS> chrisccoulson: reading now
<sconklin> ScottK: All I get is the topic, which points to this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment, which makes no mention of IRC rules
<ScottK> OK.  In any case the request was a pretty standard one for Ubuntu channels.
 * ScottK isn't an irc lawyering expert.
<bjf> scottk, maybe i was a little harsh, i can accept that and i'm sorry, but i've been doing my nic this way for two years now and this is maybe the second time anyone has complained
<james_w> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines
<bjf> ScottK, this is SOP for the kernel channel
<ScottK> james_w: Thanks.
<bjf> ScottK, and if it's a problem, then I can just drop this channel
<ScottK> As I said, I just filter them, so it doesn't affect me either way.  I was more concerned about the harshness of the response.
<ScottK> So don't leave on my account.
<bjf> ScottK, now, i've taken up more of your and my time than is necessary for this
<ScottK> Agreed.
<SpamapS> chrisccoulson: I commented on the bug. Don't forget to subscribe ubuntu-sru after you upload to natty-proposed. :)
<infinity> ogra: Can you file bugs on initramfs-tools and livecd-rootfs requesting a chance from piped to file-based compression?  It's probably a sane change even if it isn't the real bug at play here.
<infinity> ogra: Saving a bit of RAM on boot is never a bad thing.
<cjwatson> (as an #ubuntu-devel op) I think away nick changes are annoying and noisy, but I wouldn't ban people for them, and I more or less never even comment on them because it has an excellent chance of turning into this kind of meta-discussion which is more annoying than the original problem
<ogra> infinity, will do, for my use case i can work around it in flash-kernel though
<infinity> ogra: *nod*
<infinity> cjwatson: Like what's happening right now? :)
<cjwatson> well, quite so
<sconklin> james_w: thanks
<Ja23> Hello
<Ja23> I've just installed Natty and Unity is not showing up for me, instead I still have GNOME
<Ja23> When I try to run unity_support_test I get a segmentation fault
<Ja23> When I backtrace it using gdb I get: #0  0x002c3824 in XF86DRIQueryExtension () from /usr/lib/fglrx/libGL.so.1
<Ja23> #1  0x00165ae6 in ?? () from /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libX11.so.6
<seb128> Ja23: seems like fglrx is wrongly installed
<Ja23> Ohh, Ok, uninstall and reinstall?
<seb128> see bug #747286
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 747286 in unity "unity_support_test crashed as soon as i signed in." [Critical,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/747286
<Ja23> seb123: uninstall reinstall?
<Ja23> seb123: The solution is to reset the xorg.conf file using :
<Ja23>   $ aticonfig -f --initial
<Ja23> seb123: what does this mean?
<Ja23> seb123: what exactly does reset mean?
<seb128> Ja23, dunno
<seb128> but the issue seems to be that you are mixing 2 drivers
<Ja23> Mmm
<infinity> Ja23: (It's seb128, not seb123)
<Ja23> Yeah, I just noticed that..
<eitch0000> hi guys. Yesterday I asked about a problem with an application which crashes with error messages about wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS64. I tracked the problem to being that the application is actually compiled for 32 bit and thus can't load the 64 bit libraries. This same package worked in Maverick, is there something I can do, to get it to work? I've got the ia32-libs already installed.
<mdz> bryceh, around?
<infinity> eitch0000: You want to take your support questions to #ubuntu, ideally.
<eitch0000> infinity, ok, thanks
<bjf> ion, i do apologize for earlier, don't know why i was in such a bad mood
<SpamapS> question.. is there somewhere definitive that defines the LP: #012345 format? /usr/share/perl5/Dpkg/Vendor/Ubuntu.pm seems like it would be de facto...
<janimo> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Beta-2 released | Archive: final freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  maverick | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots:
<infinity> SpamapS: Since that's what creates the Launchpad-Bugs-Fixed header in .changes files (and everything else keys off that), it would be fair to call dpkg the authority.
<infinity> SpamapS: But curiously, I couldn't readily find any docs in the wiki explaining it to people who didn't already know the syntax.
<SpamapS> infinity: seems like something important to put in the packaging guide/policy
<infinity> Guide, not policy.
<infinity> But yes.
<infinity> Pretty sure the Debian packaging guide mentions Closes: #NNN
<infinity> Or the dev-ref, rather.
<james_w> http://people.canonical.com/~cjwatson/ubuntu-policy/policy.html/ch-source.html#s-dpkgchangelog
<soren> SpamapS: does
<soren> SpamapS: Whoops
<soren> SpamapS: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClosingBugsFromChangelog
<james_w> "Ubuntu: If this upload resolves bugs recorded in Launchpad, they may be automatically closed on the inclusion of this package into the Ubuntu archive by including the string: LP: #nnnnn in the change details.[20] This information is conveyed via the Launchpad-Bugs-Fixed field in the .changes file (see Launchpad-Bugs-Fixed, Section 5.6.23)."
<soren> james_w: Ah, even better.
<infinity> Oh, lookie there, it's in Policy.
<infinity> I was looking in the packaging guide, since I didn't think it should be a policy thing. :P
<SpamapS> There it is. Ok good. :)
<SpamapS> Some things omit the required \s+ .. :-P
<infinity> The LP regex sure is less sloppy than the Closes one.
<infinity> I guess we decided to be more anal about format the second time around.
<Factor-H> Anyone responsible for the wireless problem on nettops like the Aspire-One?
<Factor-H> Because the problem is detected in the hardware initialization.
<Factor-H> If the board is already initialized by windows, then Ubuntu 11.04 works fine
<Factor-H> And only then
<shadeslayer> nhandler: congrats btw :)
<Factor-H> Another bug is feeding SKYPE with stereo MIC where SKYPE subtracts one channel from the other, witn no option to force a MONO input... resulting in no MIC sound in Skype EXCEPT if you use a declared external MIC.
<Factor-H> This happens because for almost 2 years there is no way to force a MONO input in a stereo board with a channel only.
<Factor-H> The sound recorder in Ubuntu works therefore properly (he assumes mono) were Skype expects what it is told (stereo MIC). Why the sound is reduced to near zero is a matter of the Skype internal choices, under the incorrect information from the sound system used by Ubuntu. This is noticed in the Aspire-One (again).
<mick_laptop> hi everyone
<mick_laptop> I'm trying to track down what I believe to be a kernel issue - is anyone around for me to poke if I have issues?
<mick_laptop> in short when I copy a file (locally or over ethernet) after a certain percentage- my box freezes and my mouse etc becomes unresponsive
<mick_laptop> I'm compiling a kernel from kernel.org (latest stable) to see if it might be a maintream or an ubuntu specific issue
<mick_laptop> when I did: wget -c http://192.168.x.x/ubuntu.iso my box would freeze after 82%. When I did: unsquashfs on filesystem.squashfs (cp'ed from /casper on the install iso) - after 2% it always hangs
<nhandler> shadeslayer: Thanks a lot (assuming GSoC) :)
<mick_laptop> shit - while building the kernel it crashed :(
<mick_laptop> i shouldn't have tried to install vim while it was working
<mick_laptop> do i need to do a "make clean" or can i just run make again?
<seb128> try #ubuntu-kernel?
<mick_laptop> it has been running for a long time so far :(
<mick_laptop> seb128: thanks
<seb128> yw
<lars_t_h> mick_laptop, you laptop may have a thermal design problem -  that is - it cannot cool itself good enough
<mick_laptop> lars_t_h: it is a desktop - and no, that doesn't happen after 5 minutes of use in a cold room
<lars_t_h> ok
<mtaylor> if I'm getting a kernel panic on boot consistently with the latest natty kernel - what's the best way to capture/report that?
<hallyn> mtaylor: a camera has become a pretty normal way
<mtaylor> hallyn: really? ok. I'll go that next. file on ubuntu/+source/linux?
<broder> mtaylor, hallyn: install linux-crashdump
<broder> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/CrashdumpRecipe
<hallyn> broder: neat
<broder> obviously that requires that the panic isn't *too* early :-P
<hallyn> (as mine tend to be)
<jibel> TheMuso, Hi, can you help in testing ubuntu desktop and alternate powerpc images ?
#ubuntu-devel 2011-04-27
<didrocks> good morning
<dholbach> good morning
<didrocks> hey dholbach, how are you?
<dholbach> hey didrocks - great, thanks - how are you?
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> heya pitti
<didrocks> dholbach: I'm fine thanks! Happy that this crazy cycle finally ends and that we have a quality distro, ready for some testing :-)
<dholbach> yeah :)
<doko_> Sweetshark: is it intended that lo is built with -O2 instead of -Os on armel?
<Sweetshark> doko_: not explicitly by me. IIRC that was already in there before. I would have to dig in the history.
<poolie> kirkland: hi?
<Sweetshark> doko_: looks like we use dpkg-buildflags and fallback to -O2
<doko_> Sweetshark: hmm, ok. too late for natty. did show better performance with -Os in the past. maybe worth to re-evaluate for the o-series
<Sweetshark> doko_: I made myself a note about that.
<cjwatson> doko_: do you know anything more about the state of bug 635891?  Kate added a release-notes task for it, presumably on the basis that it had had an ubuntu-10.10 task, but I can't see what might sensibly be release-noted, if anything
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 635891 in libvigraimpex (Ubuntu Maverick) "libvigraimpex (main) build-depends on hfd5 (universe)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/635891
<doko_> cjwatson: does not running the tests during the build really qualify for the release notes?
<cjwatson> doko_: I don't think it does, no
<cjwatson> doko_: if that's all it amounts to, I'll invalidate that task
<doko_> ok, closed
<cjwatson> thanks
<pitti> SpamapS: I just uploaded language-pack-gnome-zh-hans to natty-proposed; would you mind reviewing this (it's a bit urgent)
<pitti> ?
<brendand> anyone know what the ida flag is for in cpuinfo?
<elmo> brendand: it's turbo boost, isn't it?
<cjwatson> ogra: if bug 615773 still needs to be release-noted, could you (or somebody else on the ARM team) please provide some sample text?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 615773 in flash-kernel (Ubuntu Natty) "flash-kernel fails to handle raw boot partitons on eMMC" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/615773
<ogra_> cjwatson, ergh, why does it need to be release noted ?
<ogra_> there is no setup using RAW partitions yet, thats a whishlist
<ogra_> (currently all ubuntu images require vfat boot partitions, we have a spec for raw in oneiric though)
<cjwatson> ogra_: I don't know.  Kate added a release-notes task, presumably on the basis that it was a milestoned bug that didn't get fixed.
<cjwatson> ogra_: if the answer is that it does not need a release-notes task, please mark that Invalid with justification
<ogra_> will do, thanks
<dholbach> Laney, blogging a little bit more lately? :)
<Laney> sigh
<Laney> always a risk when changing the feed :(
<Laney> if indeed I spammed planet
<cjwatson> pitti: do you have any idea if a release note is still needed for bug 571286?  it's marked fixed in maverick
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 571286 in Ubuntu One Servers "Data loss of postal addresses between Evolution and Ubuntu One's Funambol exchange/web UI" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/571286
<pitti> cjwatson: I don't know myself, but I'll find out
<cjwatson> thanks
<tjaalton> cjwatson: do you know why nic-modules*-udeb are split like that, can't they just be one package that would include all the drivers in drivers/net (so bugs like bug 560249 would be history)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 560249 in linux (Ubuntu) "ubuntu 10.04 install doesn't provide jme modue for jmicron ethernet" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/560249
<tjaalton> cjwatson: um, nic-*modules-udeb
<dpm> pitti, I've just noticed that we've got a 'hal' template in LP that hasn't been updated since 2007. Possibly the package does not generate a pot template, but rather than filing a bug, I'm not sure if I should just disable it in LP. Is it still in main?
<pitti> dpm: kill it :)
<dpm> die hal!
<pitti> dpm: hal went to universe in natty, and will hopefully go to nirvana in oneiric or prankful pony
<jibel> Tm_T, Hi, can you help with testing Kubuntu on powerpc. There's no result on the tracker.
<pitti> dpm: but hal itself hasn't really been updated since 2007 eithe r:)
<cjwatson> tjaalton: because some images include only some of them to keep the space cost down
<dpm> pitti, ok, disabled, thanks.
<dpm> pitti, another question: so we created the natty langpack schedule with TLE a while ago, and I just wanted to ask you a) if it looks sensible to you and b) since the intention is to release the first langpacks soon after release, when we should reshuffle the tarball exports + ppa builds schedule --> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/NattyLanguagePackReleaseSchedule
<pitti> dpm: looks fine, if it will work out in practice
<pitti> dpm: e. g. the maverick ones have been in -proposed for 40 days already
<tjaalton> cjwatson: well, seems cosmetic to me.. i'll check the numbers
<dpm> pitti, hm, yeah, that's true. That was probably my fault, as I should have pinged you after a week of testing. In any case, all the "passed" and "yes" langpacks in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Translations/LanguagePackUpdatesQA can be uploaded to -updates. I tested the Catalan ones, but I did not add the info on the wiki since a couple of questions noticed a regression in the Catalan FF translations in -proposed that does not seem easy to reproduce
<dpm> s/questions/persons/
<pitti> dpm: ah, good; so I'll copy the bits now
<dpm> cool, thanks pitti, I'll also ask the teams with "??" to see if they can update the info. Let me know when they've been uploaded and I'll clear the wiki page
<pitti> dpm: I copied language-pack{,-gnome,-kde}-{pl,gv,ast,sl,hu,ja,ru}{,-base} to -updates now, according to that wiki page
<dpm> pitti, great, thanks. I've now updated the wiki and given a heads up to the remaining "??" teams
<ev> pitti: mind if I add a task for porting ubiquity to gtk3 (yay natural label wrapping) to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-gtk3-gnome3 ?
<Tm_T> jibel: ah, I promised to test it yesterday but I fell asleep early, will do now (:
<jibel> Tm_T, no problem, just that a release is planned tomorrow :-)
<Tm_T> well aware (:)
<pitti> ev: please do (I think I already added it)
<pitti> ev: yes, it is; if it's really planned, then feel free to drop the (maybe) and grab it :)
<ev> pitti: done
<tjaalton> cjwatson: so, extracted nic-pcmcia-modules takes ~420kB and nic-usb-modules takes ~780kB. wonder if it's worth the extra trouble to keep them separate
<cjwatson> tjaalton: *shrug* now is not the time to expect me to make a judgement :)
<tjaalton> cjwatson: heh, no, but should I take this on the kernel-list or?
<cjwatson> tjaalton: kernel-team and ubuntu-installer I suppose
<amitk> jcastro: could you change the Linaro PM track description to "Consolidation of Power management for ARM" ?
<cjwatson> robbiew1: are we having the foundations team mumble meeting (or the IRC meeting, for that matter) today?  ev, jhunt, and I are all in Millbank
<tjaalton> cjwatson: ok, I'll prepare an email, thanks
<robbiew1> cjwatson: hmmm
<robbiew> cjwatson:  I don't have anything really to discuss for either, tbh
<robbiew> heh...given it's my last week as the "official" manager ;)
<barry> fine with me too
<cjwatson> robbiew: ok, up to you :)
<pitti> there: http://people.canonical.com/~platform/workitems/oneiric/
<jcastro> amitk: acked and done
<prathk> hi i am drupal-php developer
<prathk> anyone has any idea about the drupal project in ubuntu ?
<prathk> or wants mentee for any of the php/drupal project
<prathk> ?
<amitk> jcastro: thx
<abhinav-> is it a bug that when I enter a wrong password while starting Synaptic it simply doesn't start without reporting any "Wrong password error" ?
<SpamapS> pitti: ack, just sat down at computer, reviewing now
 * SpamapS wishes the latin alphabet were as pretty as han characters
<SpamapS> pitti: done, accepted
<pitti> SpamapS: thanks
<cjwatson> ogra: why does bug 736081 need to be in the release notes?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 736081 in telepathy-glib (Ubuntu Oneiric) "[armel] telepathy-glib segfaults in selftests during build" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/736081
<ogra_> cjwatson, yep, just working on the wiki
<cjwatson> I guess the bug title is not completethen
<cjwatson> *complete then
<ogra_> yeah, i guess i should change it, sadly doko didnt open a separate one for gcc, the telepathy task is actually important as a reminder to drop the workaround in oneiric
<jdong> hmmm is the debian/copyright file for Lucid's bash incorrect?
<jdong> it states that it's GPL 2 or later
<jdong> bash --version prints out License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>
<livcd> Is kde compiled using a SSP ?
<livcd> in Kubuntu
<maco> livcd: #kubuntu-devel would know better
<livcd> maco: dead
<maco> wait longer
<maco> there was talk in there 20 minutes before you joined
<livcd> waiting :O
<talcite> hi, I'm a xournal dev doing a rewrite of our codebase. I'd like to include a lib that isn't available in the ubuntu repos yet (Swiften). Is there a system that I can check to see which libs have been submitted for inclusion?
<maco> talcite: look at needs-packaging bugs on launchpad.net  -- if there isn't one, file one
<talcite> maco: awesome. So it looks like there's a lot of these requests. What's the chance that something will be packaged if I just open a bug?
<tumbleweed> talcite: presumably when you release a new version of xournal using this library, the Debian Devolper maintaining xournal will be obliged to package swiften
<rigved> talcite: if many other people also want it, then someone will definitely look into it
<talcite> tumbleweed, rigved: alright then. I'll use the lib then. It's really much better than the other XMPP options
<talcite> thanks for your help everyone
<tumbleweed> talcite: it is a little concerning that it doesn't have any releases yet. Is it stable and fit for production?
<talcite> tumbleweed: swiften? It's at v1.0, with a year of beta before it. It seems pretty stable. I haven't coded anything with it yet, but the documentation is phenomenal and there's a client implemented on it (swift).
<tumbleweed> talcite: aah. the homepage only mentions git
<talcite> tumbleweed: oh ok. Yeah, it's pretty much the best implementation I could find that doesn't require Qt. Gloox hasn't been touched since 2009 and the dev community is dead. libJingle is overkill, and telepathy requires dbus, which makes it tough to be portable. Not really any other C++ options out there.
<tumbleweed> well, hopefully someone will package it. If other people find it useful too, that'll probably happen soon enough
<lifeless> barry: yo
<SpamapS> hrm, how come mdadm doesn't have bzr branches? https://code.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mdadm
<maxb> SpamapS: if you look at package-import.ubuntu.com, it looks like that import is erroring
<SpamapS> maxb: I see that, but I don't see what the error is
<SpamapS> or rather, I don't have any clue what the problem is
<SpamapS> Can we just import whats there now and move forward?
<micahg> SpamapS: the UDD team has been working through the backlog of packages that weren't importing
<SpamapS> micahg: mmmk
<micahg> SpamapS: so, in the past, if the import error is new, we filed a bug against the UDD project
<SpamapS> micahg: yeah I have filed a few of those.
#ubuntu-devel 2011-04-28
<soren>         tree
<soren>         tree
<soren> Gah..
<soren> blame unity :)
<highvoltage> hey Pendulum
<Pendulum> hi highvoltage
<highvoltage> how are things?
<Pendulum> not bad. I'm getting excited about all the accessibility stuff we're planning for next cycle :-)
<highvoltage> great
<achiang> is it kosher to issue a command as 'sudo' in a maintainer script? goal is to run gconftool as another user
<jdong> achiang: you should probably use su for that
<dholbach> good morning
<didrocks> good morning
<pitti> Good morning
<sabdfl> morning everyone, happy release day :-)
<maco> uh oh. if you're awake, it must be way past bedtime
<Tm_T> morning, and happy thursday (:
<pitti> hey sabdfl, same to you!
<dArKd3ViL> :)
<dArKd3ViL> its been morning for me since past 24 hrs now :P
<dArKd3ViL> anziety attacks you knoe
<hrw> morning
<cdbs> pitti: You're running Oneiric?
<cdbs> pitti: As seen on bug #772185
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 772185 in unity (Ubuntu) "launcher sometimes doesn't hide when there are windows beneath it" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/772185
<azm> hi, how do I compile source for windows with gcc-mingw32 please ?
<azm> I need to issue something like this
<azm> gcc.exe -shared -o func.dll -Wl,--out-implib=libessfunc.a -Wl,--image-base=0x6350000 essfunc.o
<pitti> cdbs: am I? I have doko's oneiric-staging toolchain PPA enabled
<pitti> but otherwise natty
<cdbs> pitti: ah, explains then :) I was surprised to see an Oneiric tag
<pitti> $ lsb_release -sc
<pitti> oneiric
<pitti> oh, wow
<cdbs> and DistroRelease: 11.10
<cdbs> :D
<pitti> apparently I'm on the bleeding edge!
<cdbs> pitti: :)
<SpamapS> pitti: good morning! I've left out reviewing phonon-backend-gstreamer and libofx from the natty-proposed queue.. both seem rather different..
<pitti> SpamapS: thanks for catching up with the rest!
<SpamapS> pitti: there have been so many.. :-P
<pitti> SpamapS: must be release time or so
<pitti> SpamapS: I'll keep the queue down over the day
<SpamapS> pitti: :)  I also uploaded my own, mdadm .. which seems fairly straight forward
<pitti> SpamapS: it's such an enormous help to have two people doing this, thanks!
<pitti> SpamapS: yep
<cdbs> I thought earlier that there were other SRU team members as well, apart from SpamapS and pitti
<pitti> cdbs: formally yes, but they process stuff only on request, not regularly
<cdbs> hmm
<pitti> SpamapS: oh, btw: for the "right after release" case, we usually copy natty-proposed to oneiric once it's verified
<pitti> SpamapS: which settles the case of "fix in dev release first" while it is not actually open yet
<SpamapS> pitti: I have been opening tasks in Oneiric just in case.. but that makes perfect sense.
<pitti> having the tasks is fine, of course
<pitti> SpamapS: just to let you know about this special case, there's no blocking of SRUs here
<SpamapS> will the copying trigger the launchpad bug updater?
<pitti> SpamapS: in a weird way, but yes
<pitti> copying natty-proposed to oneiric will close the natty task
<pitti> so after that we need to manually close oneiric
<pitti> SpamapS: you can't do this yet, but our sru-release script does the copying to the dev release automatically if you set FORWARD=1, and the versions in natty and oneiric match
<SpamapS> pitti: sweeeeet
<SpamapS> pitti: so all these SRU's that are verification-done .. they still need to bake for 7 days? doesn't that make them , like, 4 - 6 day SRU's ?
<pitti> SpamapS: correct
<pitti> well, except in some justified high-urgency/safe cases
<pitti> like tzdata or this dell-recovery thing
<SpamapS> right ok
<pitti> but as a minimum they need the standard SRU verification
<pitti> SpamapS: we can probably release them next Monday, a little less than 7 days
<pitti> SpamapS: but I'm not very comfortable releasing many updates on a Friday
<mdke> ah, we can do SRUs already? Awesome
<pitti> mdke: yes, for a while; in fact you can technically upload to oneiric-proposed already :)
<pitti> (at least as soon as uploading to oneiric itself works)
<pitti> they just won't be processed
<mdke> pitti: ok, will try and get new ubuntu-docs and gnome-user-docs packages ready over the weekend
<pitti> mdke: nice, thanks
<mdke> diffs won't be small though i'm afraid, we have made a lot of progress
<pitti> SpamapS: btw, I just noticed on https://edge.launchpad.net/+apidoc/1.0.html that we apparently can use launchpadlib for copying packages, so we could rewrite sru-release in terms of launchpadlib and won't need shell access
<cjwatson> pitti: s/edge\.//
<pitti> ah, firefox history never forgets anything..
<SpamapS> pitti: Cool!
<SpamapS> pitti: thats fun, so when I've gotten my training, I can either wait for shell access or hack the script. Options are nice to have.
<pitti> SpamapS: I'll play around with that the next time an SRU is ready to be copied (or we need to copy a kernel from the PPA to -proposed)
<pitti> but it looks straightforward
<seb128> slangasek, could you check on bug #771109
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 771109 in glib2.0 (Ubuntu) "gamgi version 0.15-3ubuntu2 failed to build on amd64 with GCC-4.6/oneiric" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771109
<seb128> it's a multiarch fallout
<SpamapS> pitti: lplib is really nice to use. It was a snap getting it to check for existing versions in -proposed that don't yet exist in updates.
<pitti> oh, cool!
<pitti> MP! MP! MP!
<SpamapS> Well I was going to wait.. but..ok just for you. :)
<pitti> SpamapS: I was mostly kidding
<pitti> but actually this is especially useful in these times when we get tons of SRUs every day, and uploaders usually don't check for a previous version in -proposed and build with -v
<SpamapS> pitti: nah, I've been using it all day. :)
<SpamapS> its ready
<SpamapS> If there was one thing I'd improve it might be to put the WARNING at the top of the diff
<SpamapS> pitti: https://code.launchpad.net/~clint-fewbar/ubuntu-archive-tools/queuediff-check-for-proposed/+merge/59330
<SpamapS> tho for now I've just trained myself to 'G' to the bottom just in case
<pitti> SpamapS: I'd also print it to stderr in addition, so that you can see it where it also prints the sru-accept command
<SpamapS> good idea...
<pitti> I'll do that in the merge
<SpamapS> cool
 * SpamapS is surprisingly untired tonight. :-P
<SpamapS> despite eating almost no carbs today and doing a 1 hr karate class. :P
<pitti> SpamapS: merged with this change, thansk!
<tkamppeter> seb128, mpt, pitti, is it possible to block a UDS session onto Wed-Fri? Tim Waugh is not able to attend remotely on Mon and Tue.
<mpt> tkamppeter, I don't know, sorry. jcastro might know.
<tkamppeter> jcastro ^^^
<seb128> should be possible to shuffle the shedule to accomodate that yes
<seb128> check with pitti or jasoncwarner
<pitti> tkamppeter: yes, should be possible; is it a blueprint or a roundtable?
<pitti> tkamppeter: if tim registers himself as attending from Wed-Fri, and is marked as "participation essential" in the blueprint, the scheduling will take care of it
<tkamppeter> pitti, then I will tell Tim to do so. It is a Blueprint: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-o-system-config-printer-vs-gnome-3-control-center
<pitti> tkamppeter: yes
<pitti> tkamppeter: subscribe tim again with "participation essential"
<jubei> guys sorry this isn't directly related to ubuntu development. I'm using cmake to build a project and I'm wondering how I can instruct cmake to link certain libs with the executable
<tkamppeter> pitti, I have set up everything for Tim now.
<highvoltage> yay I see ubuntu is license-free again! no more licensing problems! (under business heading on http://www.ubuntu.com/)
<Chipzz> highvoltage: #debian-devel would like to have a word with you :P
<highvoltage> Chipzz: how so?
<Chipzz> highvoltage: you missed the font license discussion Monday?
<highvoltage> Chipzz: ah right :)
<highvoltage> Chipzz: well there's another problem solved then!
* cjwatson changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  maverick | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots:
<stgraber> congrats everyone!
<Laney> \o
<chrisccoulson> w00t
<Laney> is oneiric open yet?!?!
<Laney> ;-)
<directhex> Laney, quick, begin the 2.10 transition!
<cjwatson> Laney: later today with any luck :)
<cjwatson> (modulo toolchain timings)
<cjwatson> champagne first ...
<directhex> (no really, julian's already done a lot of the hard work, bless his little cotton socks)
<Laney> what a darling
<Laney> I'll have some archive fun with the GHC 7 transition
<directhex> Laney, boo haskell!
<jcastro> \o/
<jcastro> now we can relax!
<ogra> haha
<ogra> now the bugs will come in :P
* ScottK changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots:
<Chipzz> grats everyone!
<paultag> doko_: I (think) I have a fix for one of (what I'm sure was an automated bug) in my PPA. When you get a momement, would you re-try bug #771017 (so I can sleep at night knowing fluxbox is OK for o-series)?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 771017 in fluxbox (Ubuntu) "fluxbox version 1.3.1~dfsg1-1 failed to build with GCC-4.6/oneiric" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771017
<konaya> Where does one report an error on the ubuntu.com page itself?
<konaya> Here?
<Laney> launchpad.net/ubuntu-website
<konaya> Laney, thank you.
<konaya> There we go. Bug report submitted.
<Sweetshark> whats the right way to become a member of https://launchpad.net/~ubuntumembers? "Contact the teams owner" leads to a webform that sends mail to sabdfl, which is kind of intimidating. ;)
<ogra_> lol
<sabdfl> i get quite a few of those, yes :-)
<paultag> Sweetshark: you must apply for membership via one of the RMB
<ogra_> Sweetshark, there are wikipages that explain the membership process
<Sweetshark> argh, there is a link right on that page.
<paultag> Sweetshark: no need to harass sabdfl [over email]
<sabdfl> maybe the contact addy for u-members should go to the RMB's? it's low-traffic
<ogra_> depends ... if you send the right bribe you might get the bdfl speed process ;)
<paultag> sabdfl: not a bad idea. is there a common ML for all the RMBs?
<sabdfl> not sure
<sabdfl> i don't mind staying the contact point, but also happy to hand it on
<ogra_> there is at least one per board iirc
<maco> theres a common list for rmbs + cc + dmb iirc
<paultag> maco: I love dave matthews
<paultag> maco: also, good morning
<maco> huh?
<paultag> maco: dmb == dave matthews band (to some of us)
<maco> cyphermox: i see your lp team list changed today :)
<cyphermox> maco, oh, cool, thanks for pointing it out... and doing the change :)
<Sweetshark> sabdfl: given your avatar on launchpad, I still feel like I woke up a sleeping dragon ;)
<Sweetshark> thanks guys!
<maco> cyphermox: i didnt make the change, just saw the email
<cyphermox> ok
<Laney> Sweetshark: that page says "Fro more details about ... how to become one, please visit <SOME URL>"
<Sweetshark> Laney: right, I already followed the links "Membership"->"DeveloperMembershipBoard"->"DeveloperMembershipBoard/ApplicationProcess"->"UbuntuDevelopment/DeveloperApplicationTemplate"
<Laney> excellent!
<evfool> sorry for asking this on ubuntu-devel, I can't find the info on the canonical site: does anyone know how to contact someone from the canonical shop?
<slangasek> seb128: bug #771109> done
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 771109 in gamgi (Ubuntu) "gamgi version 0.15-3ubuntu2 failed to build on amd64 with GCC-4.6/oneiric" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771109
<seb128> slangasek, hi, thanks
<seb128> I guess doko rebuilt has been running for a while
<seb128> it probably started before your fixed version
<jibel> Sweetshark, hi, there's a missing transition to libreoffice-dmaths when upgrading to Natty, bug 772387
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 772387 in libreoffice (Ubuntu) "failed to upgrade to natty: openoffice.org-dmaths : Depends: libreoffice-dmaths but it is not installable" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/772387
<seb128> cjwatson, pitti: did any of you ever discussed with debian about adding the avahi udeb we have in ubuntu to debian?
<seb128> (I'm asking you because you respectively added those and did the recent avahi merge)
<pitti> seb128: if I did, it's been a while, and I probably would have submitted it as a bug report
<seb128> there is no bug about it that I can see
<abhinav-> pitti: I think we can add screenshot taking feature/option in apport now https://bugs.launchpad.net/apport/+bug/772336
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 772336 in Apport "Add feature to take screenshots of the buggy window" [Undecided,New]
<abhinav-> I have attached a prototype in the comments
<cjwatson> seb128: I don't think I did, sorry
<seb128> cjwatson, pitti: does one of you want to do send it or should I just add it to the desktop team "to forward" list (which is fine)?
<pitti> seb128: "want" is too much (not my patch), but I'm fine with merging avahi and sending patches
<seb128> pitti, ok, feel free to claim it then, thanks ;-)
<pitti> https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html is not yet up to date, is it?
<paultag> doko: ping, if you're around
<pitti> seb128: opened a tab for it
<doko> ?
<seb128> pitti, thanks
<paultag> doko: I have a fix for the ftbfs with fluxbox, with o-series gcc. I'd like to test it, but I can't upload to natty. Could you pick off the source package and run it through again?
<paultag> erm, not natty
<doko> paultag: you could test it in a local chroot, or in a PPA, adding a PPA dependency to the mentioned toolchain ppa
<paultag> doko: works in a local chroot, I'll see about tweeking my PPA. Thanks :)
<cjwatson> pitti: it should be shortly, at least; I did update it for oneiric
<pitti> ah, thnaks
<Sweetshark> jibel: thanks
<Sweetshark> pitti: we inherited bug 772387 from debian, how should we handle it?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 772387 in libreoffice (Ubuntu Natty) "failed to upgrade to natty: openoffice.org-dmaths : Depends: libreoffice-dmaths but it is not installable" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/772387
<Sweetshark> I'd think _rene_ would say it "works as intended".
<pitti> Sweetshark: could we upload an SRU which just drops the Depends:? i. e. that it becomes an empty transitional dummy package?
<Sweetshark> pitti: yes, we could. But I should then scan for all those cases comparing LO/OOo. I am not sure if all functionality from these packages has been moved into to main libreoffice packages. If not, it might be that people silently loose functionality on update (Not that explicitly uninstalling to be able to upgrade is that much better).
<pitti> Sweetshark: right now they lose the functionality either way
<pitti> but breaking upgrades is worse
<SpamapS> pitti: I need some guidance on bug 771841
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 771841 in shotwell (Ubuntu Natty) "Update natty to 0.9.3" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771841
<pitti> SpamapS: that's a tricky one indeed; I'd rather see a less intrusive patch TBH, as it's not obvious that it doesn't cause regressions in the background setting code for gnome 2.32
<pitti> if that has been tested thoroughly, I'd be ok with it
<pitti> we often update to new microreleases for GNOME packages, but shotwell doesn't seem to follow their release cycle, so we should be more careful there
<seb128> pitti, SpamapS: usually the yorba guys are solid upstream and have high quality standards
<seb128> not arguing either way on what to do but just pointint it
<seb128> pitti, SpamapS: if they say they tested it they probably did, it's easy to get that checked in proposed as well
<SpamapS> Ok it actually sounds like it should be safe....
<seb128> well check with mterry maybe if he testedit
<SpamapS> maybe accept into proposed, but require some detailed QA verification?
<seb128> sounds like a plan to me yes
<pitti> agreed
<seb128> we should make sure the background thing is tested during the week in proposed
<seb128> SpamapS, pitti: or wait
<SpamapS> Definitely
<seb128> SpamapS, don't accept it if you didn't
<pitti> SpamapS: btw, gnome 3 isn't completely irrelevant for natty, we have a PPA for it
<seb128> I will ask an extra question on the bug
<SpamapS> pitti: agreed, Its just not "supported" like Unity and Gnome 2
<SpamapS> so we just need to make sure those work first is all.
<seb128> the change is buggy I think
<SpamapS> seb128: eh?
<SpamapS> seb128: I am poised over the Accept button awaiting your explanation. :)
<seb128> SpamapS, I think the code is buggy, it does" write in gsettings if there is a gsettings key otherwise use gconf" but some people will have installed the gsettings schemas on GNOME 2.32
<seb128> the same way you can install gtk3 and GNOME 2.32
<seb128> they should still write in gconf in the GNOME3 case as well
<SpamapS> I did that and it completely screwed my system. ;)
<SpamapS> is gsettings in the archive or only in the PPA?
<chrisccoulson> seb128 - that's exatly what my background settings patch for firefox does too ;)
<mterry> Heyo.  I did test the background thing and it worked, but didn't check into gsettings/gconf
<seb128> mterry, well it seems like if gsettings-desktop-schemas got installed and wrote a gsettings key for the background the code would not update the gconf value and your wallpaper wouldn't get updated?
<mterry> I believe the gsettings schema for background is only from PPA?
<mterry> oh, gsettings-desktop-schemas is in the archive
<seb128> mterry, no, gsettings-desktop-schemas is in natty
<chrisccoulson> why do we ship the background schema at all if nothing in natty uses it?
<mterry> I'm not sure it's installed by default?
<seb128> because we landed gtk3 and the bits that can be in the archive directly in the archive
<seb128> Reverse Depends:
<seb128>   libgnome-desktop-3-0
<seb128>   mousetweaks
<seb128> seems like mousetweaks depends on it
<seb128> so it's likely in the default installation?
<seb128> libgnome-desktop-3 also depends on gsettings-desktop-schemas
<pitti> Task: ubuntu-desktop, ubuntu-uec-live, edubuntu-desktop, edubuntu-uec-live, ubuntu-netbook
<pitti> seb128: ^ yes, in several images
<seb128> in practice we could have some gtk2 applications using gsettings and schemas from it
<pitti> don't we anyway?
<pitti> I remember that we have some packages which reverse-patch the gtk3 specific bits
<seb128> we have applications using gsettings, not sure they use gsettings-desktop-schemas
<pitti> so they use gtk2, but still gsettings
<pitti> ah
<seb128> those are desktop keys
<seb128> like the background
<seb128> or the theme
<seb128> we avoided mixing desktop settings in gconf and gsettings
<seb128> just to avoid the shotwell case we discuss
<seb128> having shotwell writing in gsettings but nautilus still reading gconf
<SpamapS> seb128: so, IMO we should report this bug upstream immediately, but move forward with the package in proposed, testing out the possible scenario you're thinking of before moving it to -updates.
<seb128> SpamapS, upstream is reading the bug so no need to report it to them, adam is one of the upstream guys
<seb128> well if we know it's broken no need to accept it at all
<SpamapS> I'm wondering if it is "broken" in any real use case though.
<seb128> mterry, can you check the case I described? like if it does update the gconf key if there is a gsettings key?
<seb128> glancing over the git commit it seems to return after writing to gsettings in the gsettings case
<barry> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots: barry
<Sweetshark> pitti: I rechecked all the transitionals and found two additional problems: there is a transitional for zemberek (with we miss in natty) and one for openclipart (causing bug 739839). Any idea about those?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 739839 in openclipart (Ubuntu) "openclipart package impossible to install (natty)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/739839
<pitti> Sweetshark: I guess same thing -- just drop nonexisting dependencies?
<Sweetshark> pitti: openclipart is a bit more tricky: we still have 0.18+dfsg-10, not 0.18+dfsg-11, which generates a "openclipart-openoffice.org_0.18+dfsg-10_all.deb" not a "openclipart-libreoffice..." package. And the openoffice.org source package generates a openclipart-openoffice.org-1:3.3.0-7ubuntu1 transitional that expects the renamed openclipart package.
<pitti> Sweetshark: I don't think we should rename the actual package in natty; can we just fix the dependency of teh transitional package to depend again on -openoffice?
<Sweetshark> pitti: then it would depend on itself.
<pitti> ah, I see
<pitti> and the real package has a lower version number
<pitti> Sweetshark: then I guess we have to do the renaming in an SRU
<Sweetshark> pitti: http://xkcd.com/754/ btw.
<Sweetshark> pitti: k
<pitti> Sweetshark: i. e. by and large upload -11 with a more SRU-appropriate version number
<pitti> 10ubuntu1 or so
<pitti> Sweetshark: :)
<barry> pitti: hi.  do you have any interest in patches to apport that 1) switch it from pycentral to dh_python2; 2) switch it from cdbs to dh?
<pitti> barry: 1) oh please, (2) I was going to, now that we have dh_translations
<pitti> barry: so, yes to both
<pitti> barry: FYI, I have a local patch for jockey for doing that
<pitti> so don't bother with that
<barry> pitti: cool.  apport is next on my list of dhpy2 conversions :)  i'm not done with #1 yet, but it's actually easier to also do #2 at same time.  i'll work up a branch for that in the next day or two
<barry> pitti: ack for jockey
<pitti> barry: agreed, doing both at the same time is easier
<barry> pitti: rock.  keep an eye out for merge proposals :)
<pitti> SpamapS: I just copied https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.15/2.6.15-57.97 from the canonical kernel PPA using launchpadlib instead of shell access; nice!
<pitti> SpamapS: so, time to turn that into a script
<SpamapS> pitti: soon we will replace you with a fairly long python script
<pitti> SpamapS: mind to update your ubuntu-archive-tools checkout and try to run: ./copy-proposed-kernel.py dapper linux-source-2.6.15
<JontheEchidna> Is the app_name field supposed to be empty here: http://reviews.ubuntu.com/reviews/api/1.0/review-stats/ ? I was using it to help differentiate ratings between two apps from the same source package
<pitti> SpamapS: it should error out saying that there are binaries being published, but not something like "permission denied" or other stuff
<SpamapS> linux-source-2.6.15 2.6.15-57.97 in dapper (same version has unpublished binaries in the destination archive for Dapper, please wait for them to be published before copying)
<SpamapS> pitti: :)
<pitti> SpamapS: yay
<pitti> SpamapS: I didn't yet get the "go!" for the pending natty kernel
<SpamapS> pitti: there are two update-manager's in the natty-proposed queue..
<micahg> SpamapS: congrats on becoming an archive admin :)
<pitti> SpamapS: right, and the second upload doesn't use -v
<Laney> "congrats" ;)
<pitti> SpamapS: I suggest to reject them both, and ask mvo to reupload
<pitti> SpamapS: with either using -v (to catch both changelogs), or merging all changes into 1:0.150.1
<SpamapS> micahg: ty :)
<SpamapS> pitti: pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean when you say '-v' ? I haven't run into that one.
<pitti> SpamapS: dpkg-buildpackage -v<last version in final or -updates>
<pitti> SpamapS: to include all releases which are stacking up in -proposed
<Sweetshark> pitti: I commited a SRU-able version for bug 772387 and dputted the package to https://launchpad.net/~bjoern-michaelsen/+archive/libreoffice-nattytest2 .  How to move on?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 772387 in libreoffice (Ubuntu Natty) "failed to upgrade to natty: openoffice.org-dmaths : Depends: libreoffice-dmaths but it is not installable" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/772387
<SpamapS> pitti: ahh! Ok, yeah I've never had to do that.
<pitti> SpamapS: that will (1) give the right display of all changes in update-notifier, and also auto-close all bugs (not just the ones from the latest upload) when copying to -updates
<pitti> SpamapS: ... and also show all pending SRU bugs in the report
<micahg> SpamapS: it's also used when merging from Debian to catch all the changelogs/close all the bugs
<pitti> bjf: let's continue here, not really #release matter
<bjf> pitti, ack
<pitti> SpamapS: can we copy them right now? or do they still need building/testing?
<pitti> sorry, bjf ^
<bjf> pitti, just now building, expecting them to ready tomorrow
<bjf> pitti, that's why i was asking if you were going to be around
<pitti> SpamapS: if the kernel guys (bjf) ask you to move a package from their PPA to -proposed, pending-sru.html gives the necessary commands
<pitti> SpamapS: but I think the first time we should do that together
<pitti> bjf: would it be too late to do it on Monday?
<pitti> bjf: I can certainly copy them tomorrow, that's no problem
<SpamapS> pitti: yes, I was thinking that would be something good to work on next week, unless you are more free today/tomorrow
<pitti> SpamapS: tomorrow is really bad, need to sort out my moving
<bjf> pitti, SpamapS, i think monday would be ok, just the start of the next cycle, will send email to the mailing list with the request and you two can work it from there
<pitti> bjf: sounds good
<pitti> SpamapS: so, we can do that on Monday then, once you are online?
<bjf> pitti, cool
<pitti> bjf: unlike dapper, natty won't die tomorrow :)
<bjf> pitti, heh
<pitti> bjf: speaking of death, what do we do with the current karmic-proposed kernel?
<pitti> bjf: should it still run through QA, or do we declare it lost and just keep it where it is?
<pitti> (EOL is tomorrow)
<bjf> pitti, that is hopefully the last one, it needs testing and then promotion
<bjf> pitti, are we too late ?
<pitti> ok
<SpamapS> pitti: sounds good
<bjf> pitti, i don't think anything major went into it
<pitti> bjf: well, we technically can USN/release it after April 30, oto
<pitti> "too"
<SpamapS> pitti: oh, and I hate moving! ;)
<bjf> pitti, so, if in the end it just vanishes, i don't think it will be missed
<pitti> bjf: just 5 CVEs
<pitti> kees: ^ do you have an opinion about the fate of the karmic kernel in -proposed?
 * kees reads backscroll
<bjf> pitti, yup, no great loss, however, getting it tested and published would be "nice"
<pitti> kees: karmic EOL is tomorrow, I wondered if it's worth QA'ing/USNing this still, or just let it die in peace
<kees> pitti: I'm on the fence. probably easiest to let it die, but on the other hand, it'd be nice to get that work into -security since it already all happened.
<kees> how much is left to QA with it?
<bjf> kees, it's kind of been ignored with all the natty testing going on
<kees> omg, it's been in -proposed for 5 weeks??
<Sweetshark> pitti: should prepare a openclipart 0.18+dfsg-11 renamed to 0.18+dfsg-10ubuntu1 for sponsoring as SRU, or would that help nothing?
<bjf> kees, i don't think it would take much, we can talk to pgraner on monday to see if it can get some love
<pitti> Sweetshark: not sure whether it's worth doing an SRU just for these two -- perhaps we sohuld wait a couple of days for more issues to come up and bundle them?
<kees> bjf, pitti: given that it carries the fix for CVE-2010-4258 I'd prefer it get released.
<ubottu> The do_exit function in kernel/exit.c in the Linux kernel before 2.6.36.2 does not properly handle a KERNEL_DS get_fs value, which allows local users to bypass intended access_ok restrictions, overwrite arbitrary kernel memory locations, and gain privileges by leveraging a (1) BUG, (2) NULL pointer dereference, or (3) page fault, as demonstrated by vectors involving the clear_c... (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2010-4258)
<pitti> Sweetshark: openclipart> that sounds good
<pitti> kees: ack
<bjf> kees, pitti, i'll talk to pgraner about it
<bjf> kees, pitti, ball is in my court
<kees> bjf: okay, thanks! if it's really not possible to happen by monday, then it guess it just dies. I don't want to do lots of work on karmic, but it has been in -proposed for a while, it'd be a shame to just drop it.
<kees> *I guess it...
<pitti> kees: it's not technically a problem to issue an USN after the official EOL, I take it?
<speakman> If I'd like to put a new version on a package (for local testing) with current version 0.9.3-3 which would get overwritten when 0.9.3-4 is officially released - what do I choose?
<kees> pitti: not exactly, just goofy.
<speakman> btw - have you guys discussed the padevchooser icon missing bug?
<arand> speakman: 0.9.3-4~ I think
<speakman> arand: ok, sounds fair
<arand> speakman: Can use 0.9.3-4~ppa1 for example
<speakman> arand: Will 0.9.3-4 overwrite 0.9.3-4~ppa1 ?
<maco> speakman: -3+ also works
<maco> speakman: yes
<speakman> maco: 0.9.3-3+ ?
<maco> like 0.9.3-3+ppa1
<speakman> oh
<speakman> Any docs how version numbers are interpreted? :D
<maco> that and -4~ppa1 will behave the saem as regards -4
<arand> speakman: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-Version for reference
<maco> what i usually do is, if its a test version of what will becomes -4, i use teh ~
<maco> but if its a just-for-me modification of the -3, then i use the +
<speakman> arand:  thanks :)
<speakman> maco: this is a just-for-me modification just to see if it works (and then maybe posting it as an official bug fix patch) :)
<speakman> (but it seems like what's really causing https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/padevchooser/+bug/632468 is a missing sound-card.png icon in the Ambiance theme)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 632468 in padevchooser (Ubuntu) "Maverick : padevchooser, pavucontrol icon doesn't show" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<speakman> looks like gnome-icon-theme got audio-card.png (in a varianty of sizes) - how does apps look for images/icons?
<maco> speakman: is there a png as an optin?
<maco> *option
<speakman> maco: I don't know gtk at all, but it seems to be looking for audio-card<anything> at http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-pulseaudio/padevchooser.git;a=blob;f=src/padevchooser.c;h=89db6977c2e9bb6a28ec0910a7b4298ad9d012c2;hb=HEAD#l534
<speakman> maco: and this is my icons available: http://pastebin.com/rTf151BK
<speakman> maco: I'm currently on Ambiance theme (default right?)
<pitti> slangasek: can multiarch patches be forwarded to Debian now?
<slangasek> pitti: they unfortunately can't be applied yet (http://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/Bootstrapping); they could be forwarded with a caveat
<pitti> slangasek: ah, good; did you plan to do a template based mass-forward, or should we forward them during merging?
<slangasek> pitti: my plan was to mass-forward them once Debian is ready for them to be uploaded
<pitti> ah, that's easier and less error prone
<pitti> thanks
<pitti> I'll dissect the avahi udeb change then
<pitti> slangasek: does that need dh compat 9?
<pitti> slangasek: why did you remove all the debian/tmp/ prefixes in *.install files?
<slangasek> pitti: dh compat 9 changes the behavior of dh_auto_configure (passing the multiarch --libdir option by default to multiarch); that's what avahi uses it for
<slangasek> pitti: because debian/tmp/ is unnecessary with any debhelper compat level >= 7, and it's much uglier; if you revert to using it for merge reasons, the only adverse impact is on legibility
<pitti> slangasek: I agree that it's ugly, I just wondered if dh 9 introduced some change there
<pitti> slangasek: ok, thanks!
<wdbl> Hey guys, congrats on your release. However, if I wanted a Mac, I would have bought one. The nice thing about OS X is not it's global menu bar or it's app-centric window management. Those things actually kinda suck.
<maco> yeah, the nice thing about OSX is its accessibility, such as the screenreader that automatically tells you its there if you dont start using the mouse and voices a way to shut if off, rather than forcing some users to go find a sighted friend to turn on a screen reader for them.
<Saamm> I got a software center problem...Chromium rating is 102 but it only shows 1....http://i.imgur.com/Nhgpn.png
<pitti> james_w`: is it possible to poke lp:ubuntu/cdbs to actually update again?
<pitti> james_w`: or can I just push the current version into it?
<james_w`> pitti, it is possible
<pitti> looks like I could just do import-dsc and push myself, too?
<james_w`> done
<pitti> or is that discouraged?
<james_w`> you could do that
<james_w`> if there were merges from Debian in the time that hasn't been imported then it is tricky
<pitti> OOI, if it was that quick to poke, what made it fail?
<james_w`> it was saying "someone did push --overwrite on the branch, a human should investigate"
<pitti> james_w`: I'd like to abandon our custom branch for it, so we'll lose history either way; but merging will be a lot easier with the UDD ones
<pitti> james_w`: oh
<pitti> james_w`: lp:debian/cdbs is also outdated; same problem?
<james_w`> the importer is currently stopped while the new release is being opened
<james_w`> yeah, it just leaves everything to do with the package alone if that happens, so that it can't make the problem worse
<pitti> james_w`: I mean outdated as in "last commit in 2009"
<pitti> james_w`: ah, so same problem, same fix?
<james_w`> once the importer starts again it should catch up
<pitti> nice, thanks!
<james_w`> yeah, packages are global in the importer so the ubuntu branch was overwritten, so it stopped updating debian and ubuntu
<james_w`> unblocking it will mean it will update both
<james_w`> unless something else causes it to stop of course
<speakman> Is there any Ubuntu repository as there is git.debian.org ?
<maco> speakman: most ubuntu packages are in bzr
<speakman> oh
<maco> you can do:      bzr branch lp:ubuntu/packagename
<maco> to get trunk
<maco> or use lp:ubuntu/maverick/packagename for other release's branches
<speakman> thanks alot
<speakman> when I remove a patch, do I just do it manually or is there a tool for removing both the .patch file and the entry in "series" file?
<speakman> when I install packages using apt-get build-dep - how do I remove then afterwards?
<maco> umm...i would do it manually
<maco> there's probably a quilt-y way
<speakman> oh :)
<maco> as to apt-get build dep... i would copy and paste the package list at install time to file then cat that through apt-get remove
<pitti> that's what I do; sudo dpkg -P $(< purge.txt)
<Nafallo> pbuilder ftw?
<speakman> Ok, I've done "apt-get source padevchooser", removed the errnous patch, added a new entry in debian/changelog using "dch -i" and describe my changes. Shouldn't "debuild" do the trick now?
<azeem> speakman: what's the problem?
<arand> speakman: It should, normally.
<speakman> http://paste.ubuntu.com/600442/
<speakman> It's straight from the bzr repo
<arand> speakman: Either export a clean directory without .bzr or use bzr-buildpackage (I think it's called).
<pitti> speakman: you should install bzr-builddeb and use bzr bd -S (source) or -b (binary build)
<pitti> speakman: that'll do the necessary tricks
<pitti> speakman: it'll also build binaries in a separate build tree, so that they won't mess up your original source dir (autoconf noise, etc.)
<maco> i always forget to warn people about that
<speakman> wow great
<speakman> but it complains about missing my removed patch file... hmmm
<pitti> speakman: ah, for removals you have to commit your change first
<pitti> speakman: (or additions)
<pitti> mere changes will build fine before committing, too, but it's not _that_ magic
<speakman> :D
<speakman> Can I --amend a commit in bzr?
<pitti> speakman: not that I know of; you can bzr uncommit, and commit again
<speakman> Hm. Can I skip the signing part? I don't really have any official gpg keys...
<pitti> speakman: yes; bzr bd -S -- -us -uc
<speakman> (although I originally had a pair, I've no idea where they are these days)
<speakman> thanks :)
<pitti> for merely building a local package without a patch, this is a lot of overhead, FTR; apt-get source, remove patch, debuild would have been a lot easier :0
<maco> speakman: did you bzr rm or just rm?
<speakman> rm, but I think bzr grabbed it anyway
<pitti> rm plus commit works fine, yes
<speakman> Hm, why does packages compile with -g ?
<pitti> speakman: standard Debian policy, to make it easier to debug them; but by default dh_strip strips the binaries
<pitti> speakman: i. e. to retain the symbols, you merely need to set DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=nostrip (which dh_strip checks for)
<speakman> oh, I see. :)
<pitti> without the need to change any build options
<speakman> Now it seems like bzr bd falls through - but...where's the .deb file? :D
<pitti> should be in ..
<pitti> or in ../build-area/
<maco> either of you know the keyboard sequence to switch to classic ubuntu from gdm?  must be keyboard, user is blind
<speakman> ../build-area/ it was! Thanks!
<maco> (why dont we have a screenreader on gdm?)
<pitti> maco: hm, it doesn't actually seem to be possible :/
<maco> O_O
<maco> there's no keyboard way to open the options menu?
<speakman> Ok, seems like padevchooser finally did get an icon (although nothing matching the ubuntu original theme). How do I propose my changes to the ubuntu maintainer..?
<maco> speakman: push your branch to launchpad (bzr push lp:~yourusername/packagename/branchname), link it to the bug, and make a merge request
<speakman> ok, thanks. How should I mention the bug in the commit message? There are at least three different methods currently.
<speakman> "Closes: #12345" or "Fixes: #12345" or "LP: #12345" or just "fixes bug(s): https://lp.net/bugs/12345" ?
<pitti> speakman: preferred method is to make an appropriate changelog entry (with "dch") and close the bug in it with * Fixes describe me.. (LP: #123456)" (please use the exact LP: # syntax)
<pitti> speakman: then use debcommit, this will automatically link the commit to the bug
<pitti> speakman: Closes: is for Debian bugs, LP: # for Ubuntu bugs
<maco> speakman: if you've already committed without debcommit but have it in changelog already, you can also do --fixes lp:12345
<pitti> the other two aren't recognized by tools
<maco> oh wait youd still need to commit to use --fixes
<maco> you can also manually link to bugs on lp
<pitti> that, too
<speakman> I have to edit the changelog and alter my latest commit. How do I do that in bzr? Similar to git commit --amend ?
<maco> just edit it and make another commit
<maco> nothing wrong with having more than one commit in your merge request
<speakman> bzr uncommit ; debcommit did the trick :)
<speakman> maco: I just prefer not to expose my mistakes :D (bad git habit I guess)
<pitti> ScottK: do you know if we still actually use cdbs' kde.mk.in and/or kde4.mk.in? kdebase uses /usr/share/pkg-kde-tools/qt-kde-team/1/debian-qt-kde.mk
<pitti> Riddell: ^
<ScottK> Those are meant primarily for non-core KDE packages that are distributed by third parties.  We'd have go grep debian/rules to know I think.
<pitti> ScottK: by "third parties" you mean non-ubuntu sources?
<ScottK> I mean non-KDE core stuff.
<pitti> we have a ridiculous cdbs delta, I'm trying to reduce it a bit; the langpack.mk stuff can already go
<speakman> bzr: ERROR: Invalid url supplied to transport: "lp:~speakman/padevchooser/drop-use_stock_gnome_icons.patch": No such project: padevchooser
<pitti> speakman: try lp:~speakman/ubuntu/natty/padevchooser/drop-use_stock_gnome
<ScottK> It would be non-trivial to answer your question.  If Debian dropped it, then it's reasonably safe for use to do so.
<maco> oh cuz that expects project there....
<pitti> ScottK: Debian never had it
<maco> pitti: this ends up silly-long haha
<ScottK> Hmmm.
<pitti> maco: I think there's a shortcut for this, but I don't remember
<abhinav-> pitti: do you have sometime ? :)
<ScottK> pitti: Then I'm misremembering and I'm on a $work deadline right now, so ENOTIME to research it.
<pitti> for the "official" branch you can just do bzr get ubuntu:pkgname
<speakman> And there it is: https://code.launchpad.net/~speakman/ubuntu/natty/padevchooser/drop-use_stock_gnome_icons.patch :D
<pitti> ScottK: ok, thakns
<maco> pitti: right, i know the getting shortcut, but...is there a pushing shortcut?
<pitti> maco: I don't know
<pitti> maco: I'm not using these often -- I just upload :)
<pitti> usually I'm on the merging/sponsoring side of the fence
<maco> im usually bugging ScottK when i want a main sponsor, and he hates UDD so if i use it im on that side of things too
<Laney> :parent? or is that something else?
<speakman> maco: may I ask how to "link" my branch to the bug?
<maco> speakman: click on the branch on your code page on lp. should be an option to do it there i think
<speakman> maco: Oh, it has been automatically linked to the bug
<maco> a green + button
<maco> oh well then youre done
<maco> well mostly
<speakman> maco: https://code.launchpad.net/~speakman/ubuntu/natty/padevchooser/drop-use_stock_gnome_icons.patch
<maco> do the merge request
<speakman> ok :)
<pitti> ScottK, Riddell: I checked a few more packages; I'll take a plunge and drop them for now, and commit to putting them back if needed
<ScottK> Fair enough.
<barry> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots:
#ubuntu-devel 2011-04-29
<dx9s> I am sure this is the wrong channel but figured this is the channel where developers that build LiveCD images might be.. I'm working on my own LiveCD and got everything working find except on little detail... casper during boot into the squashfs makes an icon on desktop and updates the icon under system for the install to HD... I just want the icon in System -> Administration -> Install (RELEASE)
<broder_> dx9s: go look at the scripts in /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/casper-bottom
<dx9s> can't seem to find any docs on WHERE that is (Python scripts assuming) and I think it's apart of the ubiquity-casper package that does the actual branding of the icon to the live desktop
<broder_> one of them is probably responsible
<broder> though i don't know for sure
<dx9s> is that in the initrd ?
<broder> it's copied there from the real filesystem
<dx9s> I'll poke around.. thanks
<dx9s> broder, possibly 47une_ubiquity I am thinking
<dx9s> broder, or 10adduser
<broder> dx9s: i haven't looked at those scripts in a long time, so i can't really provide much more guidance at the moment
<dx9s> you've pointed me in the correct direction .. that much is appreciated!
<SpamapS> jcastro: ping re: summit
<SpamapS> jcastro: 1) https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/server-o-mysql  <-- that *must* be on Monday
<jcastro> SpamapS: yessir
<SpamapS> jcastro: 2) edge?! really? ;)
<SpamapS> jcastro: does summit take into account when essential people are only registered to be there on a certain day? It looks like summit doesn't list ccharles yet, but he's essential in lp
<jcastro> SpamapS: fixed.
<jcastro> and yes it does
<SpamapS> jcastro: woot! :) ty
<dx9s> okay now to remember how to update the initrd from inside the chroot :P
<jcastro> SpamapS: we had some import errors, once the cron job runs a few more times we'll be set
<jcastro> SpamapS: now that I've moved it by hand summit won't touch it, so you're good to go now
<dx9s> update-initramfs -u
<dx9s> broder, I think I found the code to comment out... making ISO now and gonna test it soon
<dx9s> broder, thanks much
<broder> dx9s: np
<dx9s> slick .. super slick... it's basically done :P just a little more tweaking broder you rock!!
<Sweetshark> kenvandine: ping?
<lifeless> ugh, sudoers.d is a massive foot-gun
<lifeless> vs visudo
<ion> Perhaps there should be a file /etc/sudoers.d.merged which is updated by a dpkg trigger based on files in /etc/sudoers.d and goes via visudo-style checking before getting updated.
<lifeless> something like that would have saved me needing to go reboot this box and sit in front of its boot sequence ;)
<soren> lifeless: sudo visudo -f /etc/sudoers.d/whatever
<soren> lifeless: Not particularly convenient, but usable.
<lifeless> soren: should be mentioned in the README of that dir
<soren> lifeless: Good point.
<soren> lifeless: Are you filing a bug or shall I?
<ion> Can multiple sudoers files have unforeseen effects *when combined*? If yes, checking the final combination on the system might be appropriate.
<lifeless> soren: I'm trying to decide between interrupting a 6GB rsync of a vm over wifi to reboot and fix my file
<lifeless> soren: plus right now I suspect I would use inappropriate language in such a bug report.
<lifeless> soren: so, if you could, that would be win.
<lifeless> ion: I suspect they can but am not completely sure.
<ion> rsync is somewhat good at not doing too much extra work when restarting after being interrupted.
<soren> ion: Really?
<soren> ion: It syncs into a temporary file. I didn't think it found this temporary file again if it were restarted.
<soren> lifeless: bug 772822
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 772822 in sudo (Ubuntu) "sudoers.d/README should explain how to use visudo for the files in there" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/772822
<james_w`> pitti, cdbs branches should be good to go now
<ion> soren: --partial
<ion> I always use that, mostly in the form of -P
<soren> ion: Hm... ACtually, so do I :)
<soren> ion: I just forgot.
<soren> ion: Muscle memory makes me always do "rsync -aHAPiv", but I forgot what the P was for :)
<TheMuso> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots: TheMuso
<lifeless> ion: if you supply --partial *when you start*
<soreau> There is a bug I've found in the 11.04 installer. Select manual partitioning, then select and existing partition and select which file system type it is. Now in all other installers, you could type a custom mount point but in 11.04 you cannot. I found a workaround is to copy it into clipboard buffer then right click on the mount point text area and select paste manually
<TheMuso> soreau: I suggest filing a bug against ubiquity in launchpad.
<soreau> TheMuso: Ok thanks (wasn't sure where to file it)
<TheMuso> np
<micahg> soreau: I believe it's release noted
<micahg> soreau: bug 769043
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 769043 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Cannot manually specify a mount point in the manual partitoner" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/769043
<soreau> Ah yes, was just searching through existing reports on launchpad
<soreau> thanks micahg
<soreau> Hmm, it didn't find any suitable OS to import settings from. (Not that I wish to import settings, I just hope it actually detects all the other distros installed and configures the boot loader properly)
<TheMuso> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Patch Pilots:
<didrocks> good morning
<RAOF> Howdie didrocks
<didrocks> hey RAOF! how are you?
<RAOF> I'm pretty good.
<RAOF> Still amazed at how big my new monitor is.
<didrocks> RAOF: oh? you bought a new one?
<TheMuso> RAOF: Oh wow you got a new monitor? Cool.
<RAOF> Yeah; I got a 24" Dell UltraSharp.
<didrocks> nice, which resolution? :)
<RAOF> 1920x1080
<RAOF> So (disappointingly) around 96 DPI.
<RAOF> I don't regret not getting the 27", though :)
<TheMuso> Yeah I recently picked up a new 24 inch monitor, as my previous one was starting to fail... Coloured line throught eh centre.
<didrocks> my 22'' has the same resolution as well, it's already nice :)
<TheMuso> My previous 22 inch that is.
<didrocks> (I was with my laptop monitor 17 inch, with 1920x1200), so the zoom in is impressivev ;)
<RAOF> It makes the Unity semi-maximise snapping much more useful when the screen is wide enough to have two 80-column windows happily on each side.
<StevenK> RAOF: Unity stealing Do's summon key makes me sad.
<TheMuso> I'm looking forward to the extra resolution for when I need to magnify stuff.
<RAOF> StevenK: It made me sad, too.
<RAOF> ctrl+alt+space isn't a bad alternative, and I filed a bug with unity.
<StevenK> Can has number?
<RAOF> Which looked like it might get resolved for a while.
<StevenK> I'd like to subscribe
<RAOF> bug #704231
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 704231 in compiz (Ubuntu Natty) "Unity steals <super> modifier key" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/704231
 * StevenK glares at his laptop
<StevenK> That looks like a GPU hang ...
<didrocks> StevenK: blame compiz on the stealing :)
<didrocks> StevenK: sam made a branch to fix that, but it was basically breaking everything elseâ¦
<StevenK> didrocks: I wonder if it is possible to fix safely
<didrocks> StevenK: not really, in Oneiric yeah, but in Natty, this will ask for etoomanyrewritings of plugins
<StevenK> Grrr, bug spam
<didrocks> it's basically the whole way compiz is handling Xorg key grab which has to be changed :/
 * StevenK hides it
<dholbach> good morning
<ion> that.
<dholbach> pitti, cjwatson: can you confirm bug 759534?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 759534 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "No locale defined for English language while selecting Norway as contry (Natty beta1)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/759534
<dholbach> it's the closest to what I found today: I couldn't set Norwegian as language in gnome-language-selector
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> james_w`: awesome, thanks!
<pitti> dholbach: is is not really a bug..
 * pitti comments in the report
<pitti> done
<abhinav-> pitti: what do you think about this ? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apport/+bug/772336
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 772336 in apport (Ubuntu) "Add feature to take screenshots of the buggy window" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<pitti> abhinav-: it's on my list of stuff to look at, but I won't have time today, sorry
<abhinav-> pitti: alright. no problem. :)
<dholbach> pitti, can you try to install "norwegian" on your machine and select it as your language?
<dholbach> pitti, it doesn't work for me on 2 machines
<pitti> dholbach: in language-selector?
<dholbach> pitti, even if the bug I quoted is not "a real bug" I think there's a real problem
<dholbach> pitti, yes, please
<pitti> hm, doesn't install the langpack nor the locale
<dholbach> pitti, I have no idea how to track it down - you can just select the spellchecker options for it on my machines
<pitti> dholbach: how did you learn about this, is there a bug report for it already for keeping notes?
<dholbach> pitti, I tried to install Norwegian as additional language
<dholbach> and set it for a user
 * pitti wonders which Norwegian one -- Nynorsk (-nn) or BokmÃ¥l (-nb)
<pitti> language-pack-nn installs fine here
<pitti> so does language-pack-nb; bummer
<pitti> oh
<pitti> it tries to install -no
<pitti> but there is no -no langpack; it's either -nn or -nb
<diwic> pitti, I'm checking a Lucid install here, seems like it installs both myspell-nn and myspell-nb
<pitti> diwic: yes, that's language-support-writing-no
<dholbach> pitti, is the bug I mentioned related to it all?
<pitti> but that shouldn't really exist
<pitti> dholbach: not really I think
<dholbach> I didn't search very long to find a suitable one
<pitti> dholbach: there is no en_NO locale
<dholbach> ok
<dholbach> pitti, I'll file a bug on this - maybe there are other languages affected as well - not sure how to test this
<pitti> dholbach: sounds like a special case; thanks for filing the bug, please let me know the number when you are done
<dholbach> will do
<dholbach> pitti, bug 773009
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 773009 in language-selector (Ubuntu) "Can't select Norwegian" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/773009
<dholbach> dpm, ^
<Sweetshark> hmmm, I am having a strange Ubuntu only issue: "LANGUAGE=C LC_ALL=C gcc -print-file-name=libgcc_s.so.1" according to the man-page should print a full path, but does not. And it seems to be a ubuntu only issue.
<dpm> dholbach, thanks, looking...
<pitti> dholbach: cheers, updated
<mvo> cjwatson: bug #772514 looks like it might be caused by a incomplete perl state during the upgrade (isc-dhcp-client.postinst fails in debconf it seems) do you have a idea how to make that more robust (if that is actually the problem, but it looks like it is)?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 772514 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu) "upgrade issue due to failing debconf prompt(?)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/772514
<dholbach> hey mvo
<mvo> hey dholbach
<seb128> mvo, he's off today I think, they got a bank holiday due to some weeding ;-)
<mvo> woah, must be a important one, we don't get anything like this in my part of the world
<mvo> seb128: thanks seb128
<seb128> ;-)
<seb128> yw
<Sweetshark> hmm, my build expects a /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.5.2/libgcc_s.so.1 symlink -- which seems to work on other distros. Can anyone shed a light on which lib one should expect where?
<seb128> seems like a doko's question
<corno> i would appreciate it if someone can give me some advice or point me in the right direction, my story as follows:
<corno> i'm new to the LaunchPad system, joined a few days ago and would love to get involved with bug-fixing/development
<corno> i've found a specific bug that i'm interested in (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usb-creator/+bug/484252)
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 484252 in usb-creator (Ubuntu) "Format action wipes all partitions" [High,In progress]
<corno> a patch has been submitted to the bug item, this patch is made on top of usb-creator version 0.2.28 as far as i can tell
<corno> when i checked out the latest TRUNK i see that other fixes/changes have been committed in the meantime
<ogra_> Sweetshark, mutiarch ?
<corno> if i want to test (for education purposes) this aforementioned patch, should i test it against the latest trunk (involving some merging first as the patch affects already changed areas)?
<ogra_> err
<ogra_> *multi
<corno> any pointers are most welcome thanks
<seb128> hey corno
<Sweetshark> ogra_: there is a /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.5.2/libgcc_s.so, so it the .1 which confuses the build
<corno> seb128:  hi :)
<seb128> corno, ubuntu-sponsors should be subscribed to the bug for the patch to be in the review queue
<seb128> corno, it would be best to test on trunk if you can update the patch to apply to that version
<seb128> corno, but testing on 0.2.28 is better than nothing
<ogra_> Sweetshark, ah, yeah, then its doko :)
<corno> seb128:  thanks for the pointers, appreciated.  think i will get my hands dirty with the trunk testing instead, after applying/merge patch to trunk version.  think i will learn more following that route.
<seb128> corno, do you have specific questions?
<seb128> corno, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu might be worth reading if you need infos
<corno> seb128:  and when i can confirm the patch does what it should, i'll just generate a patch (should find instructions on wiki) and just attach to bug again right?
<seb128> yes
<seb128> corno, or do a merge proposal on launchpad
<corno> seb128:  have read most wiki pages RE contributing/dev/bug fixing.  just a lot to wrap my head around and thought i'd come and make contact here to fast track my learning curve.
<seb128> corno, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/Debdiff as well
<seb128> corno, that page explains merge proposals and debdiffs, usb-creator is maintained as an upstream project on launchpad so merge proposal might be the easier way
<seb128> corno, ok, feel free to ask questions if you block on something, otherwise ev is maintaining usb-creator but he's off today since it's an uk bank holiday
<corno> seb128:  he was probably invited to the Royal Wedding ;)
<corno> seb128:  thanks again for all the pointers.
<seb128> ;-)
<seb128> you're welcome
<corno> seb128:  awesome page ->  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/Debdiff
<seb128> we have nice documentation, there is just a lot on the wiki so it's not always easy to find what you need
<seb128> but yeah ;-)
<corno> seb128:  yep, the wiki is very helpful, just a question of filtering out the exact information i need to start my ubuntu dev journey.
<corno> seb128:  the "bzr branch" command will actually create a new branch dir on the LP system?
<seb128> corno, no, it gives you a local one
<seb128> but you can push it tp lp:~user... then
<seb128> to
<seb128> that will create a new one
<corno> seb128:  thanks
<corno> seb128:  feeling a bit stupid, need some help with the branch command
<hrw> ok, natty released. time to switch to oneiric?
<corno> seb128:  i'm having a look here:  https://launchpad.net/usb-creator and when i do the branch
<corno> seb128:  bzr branch lp:usb-creator lp-checkout
<corno> seb128:  am not sure about the part after "lp:"
<ogra_> hrw, definitely ! oneiric-changes already has 6 packages !
<hrw> ogra_: german mirror lacks oneiric dirs - so I will wait few days
<chrisccoulson> that reminds me - must subscribe!
<ogra_> hrw, bah, these german slackers ...
<hrw> ;D
<dpm> cjwatson, hi, where is the Chinese iso available for download?
<seb128> corno, sorry I was out, that should work, what error do you get? did you try without the lp-checkout bit?
<GunnarHj> ScottK: Hi Scott, Could you please approve bug 771661. It's a pure update due to a proposed SRU. Thought I'd prevent that regression bugs start dropping in this time. ;-)  (Pls let me know if participation by ubuntu-backporters is redundant in a case like this.)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 771661 in gdm "Allow .xsession-errors to be a symlink" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/771661
<ScottK> GunnarHj: Done.
<GunnarHj> ScottK: Thanks! 47 seconds, not bad. :)
<ScottK> I think ubuntu-backporters is not redundant in this case, but it's easy to say if it's good enough for SRU, it's good enough for me.
<dpm> pitti, I was about to go back to the nouveau driver after having installed nvidia r173. However, when starting jockey-gtk, I'm no longer presented with the option of choosing the nouveau driver. Is this a known bug, or expected behaviour?
<corno> seb128:  was my turn to be out now :)
<corno> it checked out successfully, my command:  bzr branch lp:usb-creator lp-checkout
<corno> and i ended up with the latest in my "lp-checkout" dir
<pitti> dpm: if you merely disable the nvidia one you should get back to nouveau automatically
<dpm> pitti, yes, that works, thanks. Out of curiosity, why is the behaviour like that instead of just showing all the available drivers?
<hrw> question: someone moved main machine to oneiric?
 * ogra_ never upgrades before A1
<hrw> ogra: your ac100 was not safe even at B1 iirc
<ogra_> it is now
<ogra_> we have a proper kernel source now ... got a lot better ... still not finished though
<hrw> ogra: so which kernel ver now?
<ogra_> .37
<hrw> nice
<hrw> android device based or mainline + patches?
<ogra_> mainline + patches
<ogra_> and a good chunk already went to .39
<hrw> awesome
<hrw> audio or smp works?
<ogra_> by the time you cant buy the device in stores anymore we will have a proper mainline kernel :)
<ogra_> smp, CPU PM and backlight work
<ogra_> there is a fake sound driver but the actual codec isnt there yet
<ogra_> (i have input and output devices but no actual sound)
<hrw> ogra: there will be other tegra2 deives too
<ogra_> yeah, but they will all need different kernels i fear
<ogra_> ac100 and folio 100 have nearly the same boards for example
<ogra_> but the kernel isnt interchangeable
<corno> seb128:  regarding https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/Debdiff.  no 2 and 3, do they both create branches/dirs on local hdd?
<corno> seb128:  or does no 3 create the branch/dir remotely on LP side?
<seb128> corno, sorry if you get a local copy working I'm not sure what your question or issue is
<seb128> corno, oh, yes, 2 does a copy from the server version
<seb128> nÂ°3 does a new copy which you can use to hack on your modified version$
<seb128> so you get a checkout from trunk and a patch directory where you can work
<seb128> you could just checkout the trunk hack directly in it and push that on you personal space, not sure why the page suggest doing a copy in 3- but that works as well
<seb128> it has the advantage to keep you a trunk checkout so you can use it again or update it and keep working on your patch in the new copy you do in 3
<corno> seb128:  ah, makes sense to have the "untouched" copy, espeically when the source in question is relatively large. thanks for clearing up.
<seb128> yw
<lool> Hmm I get a signature rejection when uploading to oneiric:
<lool>   Uploading linaro-image-tools_0.4.5-0ubuntu2_source.changes: 1k/2k550 Changes file must be signed with a valid GPG signature: Verification failed 3 times: ["(7, 9, u'No public key')", "(7, 9, u'No public key')", "(7, 9, u'No public key')"] : Permission denied.
<lool> but gpg --verify ../linaro-image-tools_0.4.5-0ubuntu2_source.changes passes
<lool> (and on the .dsc as well)
<mdke> I've had the error a few times recently when uploading to natty
<mdke> the upload seems to work though
<ScottK> lool: LP bug.
<seb128> lool, could have worked, the errors seems to be a false warning
<ScottK> The upload went through.
<seb128> that's happening for a month or so
<lool> Ok; thanks
<ScottK> wgrant was making vague promises it would be fixed soon recently.
<pitti> dpm: please feel free to report (or check for) a bug report of this
<cdbs> Whoa? Oneiric open for development?
<cdbs> Okay, its just a misleading blog post on UbuntuUser
<charlie-tca> it was announced through the mailing lists
<cdbs> No wait, it IS open! Did we break the world records for quickest opening?
<cdbs> charlie-tca: yes I just got the mail
<rigved> so does that mean that i can download and install onieric? is this a pre-alpha release?
* cdbs changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Oneiric Archive: OPEN | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<cdbs> rigved: In theory, yes. But its severely unstable right now
<rigved> cdbs: ok. so maybe in a vm then?
<cdbs> rigved: Daily builds should start to come up in 1-2 weeks
<rigved> cdbs: oh ok. i think i'll wait till the daily build is out. i always find that better to download via zsync
<cdbs> rigved: until then the only way to use oneiric is to upgrade the hard way i.e. change all appearances of natty in /etc/apt/sources.list to oneiric and apt-get dist-upgrade. WARNING: unstable software
<rigved> cdbs: no i don't want to do that. thanks :)
<cdbs> rigved: Even I never did that. I've always installed from the daily builds
<wgrant> cdbs: We were nearly able to open 12 hours ago, but the mirrors were overloaded :(
<wgrant> ScottK, lool: That bogus warning should be gone now.
<cdbs> wgrant: hmm, why such a hurry? All previous openings were a week after release of previous version
<cdbs> or even more
<barry> wgrant: yeah, even doing sbuilds yesterday was painful ;)
<wgrant> cdbs: It's normally only a couple of days nowadays.
<cdbs> wgrant: But this was by far the quickest
<wgrant> Indeed.
<wgrant> The toolchain was prepared in a PPA, so no iteration in the primary archive was required.
<cdbs> I remember cjwatson terming the natty opening to be the quickest, still it took 5 days
<AndreaAzzarone> hello! in gtk3 there is libglade?
<lool> wgrant: Cool; thanks
<andrea__> hello! in gtk3 there is libglade?
<cdbs> andersk: You mean in Natty? yes
<cdbs> andersk: you'll need to install glade-3 though
<cdbs> oops
<cdbs> sorry andersk , wanted to answer andrea__ who eft
<cdbs> *left
<seb128> cdbs, not sutre your reply was correct, libglade is deprecated for a while in favor of gtkbuilder
<seb128> glade is just the gui used to edit those
<cdbs> seb128: yes I did realize that, would have said it in the next line if he was around
<cdbs> seb128: It is non-existant in GNOME3 isn't it?
<seb128> libglade? it's deprecated yes, there is no gtk3 version
 * stgraber will need to write a new release procedure for his work environment (VMs + chroot + bzr branches + e-mail filters + ...), this all take a lot of time :)
<corno> i have a question RE https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/GettingSetUp
<corno> in there it has a step:  "pbuilder-dist <release> create"
<corno> where <release> means:  Replace this with the codename of the version of Ubuntu or Debian you want to use.
<corno> does that just mean for the distribution/release you are going to test/dev on?
<corno> i see that it will download all the necessary packages for a "minimal installation".
<ScottK> Yes
<corno> ok cool, just wanted to make sure that it has nothing to do with the TARGET milestone or release.
<corno> and that it is all about the environment that you have currently installed and on which you want to dev & test.
<Laney> jcastro: Can you get the DMB session scheduled please? If too much stuff gets scheduled into that slot then it increases the chance of conflicts (there's already one with me)
<james_w`> Laney, which session?
<Laney> james_w`: do you mean which one am I conflicted with?
<james_w`> Laney, it's already scheduled and you want it re-scheduled?
<Laney> james_w`: it's not scheduled, I need it to be so that the scheduler doesn't create conflicts which would make other DMBers unable to attend
<james_w`> Laney, ok, which session do you mean?
<james_w`> I'm trying to debug why some things aren't getting autoscheduled
<Laney> the regular DMB meeting
<Laney> there's no blueprint or anything for it
<jcastro> cjwatson or pitti: can one of you add scottk to ~uds-organizers? I need him to be able to approve/decline kubuntu topics.
<james_w`> Laney, why no blueprint?
<ScottK> cjwatson or pitti: LP username kitterman
<ScottK> (scottk in LP is entirely someone else)
<Laney> james_w`: because it's nothing which needs discussion or will result in WIs or anything like that
<Laney> should there be one anyway?
<Laney> it is just our fortnightly meeting to approve new people
<james_w`> Laney, that's how required participants are set, which is what stops the scheduler from creating clashes
<james_w`> so there's not much point in scheduling it without that
<Laney> alright I'll file one
<jcastro> Laney: right, just create a blueprint and mark the required people
<jcastro> and post UDS we'll just delete it or whatever
<Laney> figured there would be a way to do it without creating a noop blueprint, but ho hum :-)
<james_w`> what do you want, a system that caters to all your needs?!?!?
<Laney> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/other-o-dmb-meeting there you go
<james_w`> jcastro, can you accept that? ^
 * SpamapS is still quite confused why summit uses .edge.
<Laney> I didn't check the essential button for cody-somerville, sorry :'(
<jcastro> SpamapS: which part is referring to edge? I've not run into edge URLs
<Laney> the blueprint links all go to edge
<james_w`> https://code.launchpad.net/~james-w/summit/no-edge/+merge/59526
<Laney> beat me to it!
<Laney> still uses the edge api though
<jcastro> ah
<ScottK> slangasek: Do I need to prod you about spec approval or can I assume you'll read your LP mail and get to it?
<kirkland> mvo: lifeless: howdy!  what does it take to get a system installing via the server or the alternate cd to use a squid-deb-proxy?  is it possible?
<mvo> kirkland: iirc the altnerate install ask for a proxy during the network setup step, but its probably only done in manual mode. not sure if its possible to put that into the dhcp data
<kirkland> mvo: hmm, i should be able to preseed it, right?
<kirkland> mvo: but it's not a generic http proxy;  it's just a deb proxy, so i'm unsure
<mvo> kirkland: yeah, preseed should work. right, its not a generic proxy, maybe its best to seed it only for the install and have something that removes it afterwards. altneratively you could install squid-deb-proxy-client for auto-discovery, but that would have to be done pretty early in the process. or just write /etc/apt/apt.conf with the acquire::http::proxy early
 * mvo needs to go for dinner now
<kirkland> mvo: is there a udeb that can be installed early enough?
<kirkland> mvo: i didn't see one in my first look
<mvo> kirkland: I think there is none, but that should be straightforward to create, that is a nice idea
<kirkland> mvo: cool
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: ^
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: ok... what I'm trying to do is netboot the mini ISO but use the mirror synced by cobbler
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: and trying to tell that in the preseed
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: ok I got it
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: this is sweet!
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: using the mirror info from http://www.debian.org/releases/lenny/example-preseed.txt ?
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: yeah, I added the mirror part to your preseed like this: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/600874/
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: which points to the mirror location (which in fact is a full server ISO import)
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: but the idea is to have a template seed that automatically sets the mirror for each ISO imported
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: *exactly* !!!
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: so basically we can use the reposync feature in cobbler to do this when importing mini ISO's, or/and have squid-deb-proxy to handle the updates
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: yeah
<soreau> Guys I'm totally lost here and I can't find anyone who knows what's going on.. I open sound-preferences from the volume icon on gnome-panel in natty and it also automatically opens a terminal that starts orca (and starts talking). I exit the terminal and it restarts itself automatically. What is going on here?
<slangasek> ScottK: let's assume for the moment that prodding me is the safer option until I tell you otherwise :)
<SpamapS> mvo: that software-center upload to natty-proposed is massive
<SpamapS> kirkland: for s-d-p .. I don't think the client updates d-i's proxy information.. just apt.. so you'll need to have that udeb specifically talk to d-i
<SpamapS> soreau: you will probably have better luck getting support in #ubuntu
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: ok so after installation, /etc/apt/sources.list points to the cobbler mirror
<SpamapS> kirkland: I like the idea of automatically making use of an s-d-p during installs eventually. Not sure if we want to make it that easy to mitm installs though (even w/ the cryptographic protections.. seems like asking for trouble)
<kirkland> Sp4rKy: right
<Sp4rKy> :)
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: why not do this? 1. Create repos with cobbler. 2. Every time we import an ISO use a preseed that points to the cobbler's repo/mirror. 3. let cobbler update the repo/mirror (it's just matter of cobbler reposync)
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: obviosly the first sync of the mirror will take quite a long time
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: i don't think it's reasonable to *require* 500GB+ of disk space to run orchestra, out of the box
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: squid-deb-proxy gives us the benefit of caching a subset of the archive locally
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: and if every Orchestra deployment came to require mirroring the archive, we'd kill the main mirrors with everyone's initial sync :-)
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: you are right :)
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: that said, we should definitely support/allow people to run their own mirros
<kirkland> RoAkSoAx: as many large ubuntu deployments may well have one
<RoAkSoAx> kirkland: I agree!
<soreau> SpamapS: I already asked several times in #ubuntu
<geser> kees: Hi, is it ok if I take the vim merge of you?
<till_> [not strictly ubuntu-devel, so excuse the OT, but] does anyone else have trouble resolving ppa.launchpad.net?
<kees> geser: sure thing! thanks!
<kees> $ host ppa.launchpad.net
<kees> ppa.launchpad.net has address 91.189.90.217
<kees> till_: ^^
<till_> Err http://ppa.launchpad.net karmic Release.gpg Could not connect to ppa.launchpad.net:80 (91.189.90.217), connection timed out
<till_> kees: yeah, sorry, resolving works, anything else doesn't
<geser> till_: the connection might be a little stressed right now due to release
<bdmurray> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Oneiric Archive: OPEN | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: bdmurray
<stgraber> Laney: thanks for schedulding the DMB uds session!
<Laney> np :-)
<Laney> stgraber: hope it gets scheduled soon. there's one session I'm essential for at that time already
<cnd> jcastro, I created blueprints for uds named "dx-o-touch-<blah>", do I need to recreate them as "desktop-dx-o-touch-<blah>"?
<stgraber> jcastro: ^ can you schedule Laney's session (other-o-dmb-meeting)
<jcastro> cnd: no you need to rename them that
<cnd> jcastro, how do I rename them?
<cnd> maybe I just didn't see the button :)
<jcastro> on the bp page
<jcastro> top right, details link
<cnd> jcastro, found it, thanks!
<jcastro> stgraber: accepted it, it should hit the scheduler on the next cron job (hourly)
<Laney> jcastro: it needs to be scheduled at a specific time
<Laney> monday 16:00
<mvo> SpamapS: the s-c upload is massive  ? to proposed? let me double check, should not be. I mean, not tiny, but not massive
<mvo> SpamapS: this is what diffstat shows  for me http://paste.ubuntu.com/600934/ - is that what you see too?
<stgraber> Laney: I can move it then if it's not scheduled at the right time.
<Laney> stgraber: ok sounds good
<m4n1sh> anyone here knows about firefox addons debugging?
<abhinav-> m4n1sh: try #ubuntu-mozillateam :)
<m4n1sh> abhinav-: thanks. even on irc.mozilla.org :)
<abhinav-> oh yea :)
<corno> i have a question RE the command "pbuilder-dist natty create"
<ohsix> where can i see the build status for main archive packages?
<corno> i get the following output from it:   initramfs-tools : Depends: udev (>= 147~-5) but it is not installed
<corno>  libc6-dev : Depends: linux-libc-dev but it is not installed
<corno>  mountall : Depends: udev but it is not installed
<corno>  plymouth : Depends: udev (>= 166-0ubuntu4) but it is not installed
<corno>  python2.7-minimal : Depends: libssl0.9.8 (>= 0.9.8m-1) but it is not installed
<Sarvatt> ohsix: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+builds
<ohsix> Sarvatt: thanks :D
<ohsix> ahh i see, the package i was interested in wasn't even uploaded for my arch; the upload for proposed was finished for i386 hours ago
<ohsix> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+builds?build_text=pithos&build_state=all how do you get someone to copy it to another arch?
<corno> is that normal? or should i fix that for my dev env to work properly?
<ohsix> Sarvatt: is that something i can just ask an archive admin to do or should i ping the maintainer
<corno> i think i might have a bigger problem
<corno> when i execute this:  "pbuilder-dist natty build ../usb-creator_0.2.29.dsc"
<corno> i sit with this [error] output:  I: Building the build Environment
<corno> I: extracting base tarball [/home/corno/pbuilder/natty-base.tgz]
<corno> gzip: stdin: unexpected end of file
<bdmurray> check your dmesg for hardware errors
<corno> any ideas how to fix this problem? i'm probably doing something silly.
<corno> bdmurry:  was the dmesg msg for me?
<corno> *bdmurray
<bdmurray> corno: yes
<corno> bdmurray:  nothing in dmesg
<bdmurray> corno: okay, it was just a thought
<corno> bdmurray:  i'm correct in saying that archive is built when running "pbuilder-dist natty create"?
<bdmurray> corno: I'm not really familiar with pbuilder
<Laney> sounds like the basetgz is broken
<Laney> i'd delete it and recreate
<corno> Laney:  meaning re-run "pbuilder-dist natty create"?
<Laney> corno: yeah
<corno> Laney:  thanks, will give it a shot.
<Sarvatt> ohsix: its arch all which always builds on i386, not sure why its not in proposed yet though because it looks like it should be
<corno> Laney:  oh btw, i think it is safe to assume the tgz is broken, i just checked its size:  0K  :)
<ohsix> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pithos/+bug/759699 well this is the bug i was going by
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 759699 in pithos (Ubuntu) "Gstreamer encountered a general stream error" [Medium,Triaged]
<Sarvatt> ohsix: oh its just not on some of the mirrors yet
<ohsix> ah ok
<Sarvatt> ohsix: it's on archive.ubuntu.com
<Sarvatt> now its on us.archive.ubuntu.com too, wasnt a few minutes ago
<ohsix> it'll probably be on my mirror by the time i need it :D
<ScottK> Meep.
<ScottK> Not what you want to see in your build log: /usr/bin/apt-cache exit status 11
<ScottK> https://launchpadlibrarian.net/70709627/buildlog_ubuntu-oneiric-armel.boost-mpi-source1.46_1.46.1-4ubuntu3_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
<ohsix> har
<penguin42> ScottK: I'd check to see if the apt-cache got built with the compiler with shrink-wrap on or off
<ScottK> penguin42: It's an in archive build, so ...
<corno> when doing "pbuilder-dist natty create"
<corno> i see msgs like:  W: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/o/openssl/libssl0.9.8_0.9.8o-5ubuntu1_i386.deb was corrupt
<corno> W: Couldn't download package libssl0.9.8
<corno> anyone else seen those?
<ohsix> did you check and see if you were having hardware/disk problems yet?
<corno> ohsix:  yep, and i didn't see anything suspicious
<ohsix> aside from the file verification failures ;]
<corno> ohsix:  lol, yeah :)
<corno> natty-base.tgz keeps on being 0K
<corno> would this have anything to do with it?  The following packages have unmet dependencies:
<corno>  initramfs-tools : Depends: udev (>= 147~-5) but it is not installed
<corno>  libc6-dev : Depends: linux-libc-dev but it is not installed
<corno>  mountall : Depends: udev but it is not installed
<corno>  plymouth : Depends: udev (>= 166-0ubuntu4) but it is not installed
<corno>  python2.7-minimal : Depends: libssl0.9.8 (>= 0.9.8m-1) but it is not installed
<corno> i guess not?
<penguin42> anyone know how long it's taking for a ppa upload to do anything?
<ohsix> penguin42: look at the build status for the package, there are links on the pages after a successful upload
<ohsix> you'll get an email if the upload fails too; theres kind of a few minutes of dead time after an upload, just need to wait a bit
<penguin42> ohsix: I did the upload about 4 hours ago, it said it successfully uploaded and their is nothing on the web page
<ohsix> url to the ppa?
<penguin42> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-treblig/+archive/kdefixes
<Ampelbein> penguin42: there was a problem with ppas few hours ago
<ohsix> did you already add a public key to your account and sign your upload with it?
<penguin42> ohsix: Yes, I've done a few before
<ohsix> ah ok
<penguin42> Ampelbein: Does that mean it'll eventually bubble through or that it needs reuploading?
<Ampelbein> penguin42: you can never be wrong by reuploading ;-)
<penguin42> haha
<corno> when doing a "pbuilder create", surely one shouldn't get the msg that some of the files on the server is corrupt?  done it now the 4th time, always give the corrupt msg for the same group of files.
<penguin42> Ampelbein: Ah - ppa.launchpad.net is giving connection refused so something is obviously still borked
<Ampelbein> corno: most likely you have a faulty piece of hardware on your side
<Ampelbein> penguin42: http://identi.ca/launchpadstatus says it is fixed, maybe ask in #launchpad
<penguin42> corno: : I've seen that happen with bad ram
<corno> penguin42, doing it on the same files, every time?
<penguin42> corno: I've got to admit that's more unusual unless it's the big file
<penguin42> corno: Or it's in a cache somewhere that's corrupt
<penguin42> Ampelbein: Thanks, asked
<corno> penguin42, am doing the pbuild differently now, and didn't see the corrupt message again for some of the files
<corno> have been breaking like that when i ran this:  pbuilder-dist natty create
<Ampelbein> penguin42: I just noticed elmo changed topic 20 minutes ago in #launchpad
<Ampelbein> "PPA uploads are down"
<corno> this time around i'm using this:  sudo pbuilder create --debootstrapopts --variant=buildd
<corno> and i'm getting [better] results.
<corno> so far it has only broke on a locale file
<penguin42> Ampelbein: Oh yeh; I really should read topics :-(
<corno> and there it still breaks on udev :(
<corno> can i somehow force this pbuild process to contact a different server perhaps?
<corno> as a test?
<Ampelbein> corno: with the --mirror option, yes
<corno> Ampelbein, thanks
<corno> will try again tomorrow, for now i'm out. thanks for all help so far.
* elmo changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: PPA uplaods are down | Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Oneiric Archive: OPEN | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: bdmurray
<ScottK> Laney: RE your blog post: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/foundations-o-backports-bof/
<timholum> Does anyone know where the source for the ubuntu search menu is that is new in 11.04?
<timholum> I would like to write a small patch for it
<achiang> timholum: that is called the dash
<timholum> achiang: thanks that will probably help me find it :)
<achiang> timholum: so i guess you can do: apt-get source unity
<achiang> and start reading. :)
<timholum> :) ok, do you know what language the dash is written in by chance ?
<achiang> timholum: although depending on what you want to do, you may find that writing a "lens" is closer to what you want
<achiang> a lens would be used to extend dash functionality
<achiang> a patch would be to change/fix existing functionality
<timholum> ok so if I wanted to make \\192.168.1.50 open up a smb connection
<timholum> that would probably be a lens
#ubuntu-devel 2011-04-30
<achiang> timholum: looks to be written in Vala
<achiang> timholum: sounds like it, but i am far from authoritative. you might be able to find better answers in #ubuntu-desktop
<achiang> timholum: plus, it's friday afternoon for many geographies, including mine. :)
<achiang> timholum: good luck
<timholum> :) thanks :), just knowing the terminology of what I am looking for will help a ton
<timholum> who know's maybe someone has already written what I am looking for, if there are 3rd party lens's out there
<Laney> ScottK: yay
 * Laney becomes a little red person
<bdmurray> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: PPA uplaods are down | Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Oneiric Archive: OPEN | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
* jbicha changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: PPA uplaods are down | Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Oneiric Archive: OPEN | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
* jbicha changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: PPA uploads are down | Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Oneiric Archive: OPEN | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
* elmo changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 11.04 released! | Oneiric Archive: OPEN | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not app development) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper ->  natty | #ubuntu-app-devel for application development on Ubuntu | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<afeder> does any ubuntu one devs hang out here? or is it elsewhere?
<Saamm> i got a problem with software center where do i report
<arand> Saamm: run "ubuntu-bug software-center" presumably
<Saamm> ok can someone tell me if this is happening to anyone else? Software Center Shows 0 Rating for Chromium...But when click on more info it shows 121 raqting...
<bryceh> Saamm, no, I see it says '82 ratings' when listed, clicked on, or doubleclicked for more info.  Seems consistent to me.
<Saamm> bryceh, i dont know I think there is a bug that it shows ratings more than 100 as 0. My chromium says 121 ratings
<ScottK> Saamm: #ubuntu is the support channel.
<Saamm> ScottK, ok
<bluefoxicy> okay, so after the upgrade something extremely stupid happened
<bluefoxicy> and I can't figure out how to make it stop
<bluefoxicy> when any application tries to open a folder, it opens it with VLC
<bluefoxicy> so if I load the old style Gnome, hit Places->Home Folder, it runs vlc on my home folder
<bluefoxicy> I ... have no idea how to fix this.
<bluefoxicy> got it, had to edit ~/.local/share/applications/mimeapps.list and remove the entry for (get this) deleted associations for inode.directory
<Saamm> bryceh, the rating problem is happening with GIMP also...it shows 0 but actual rating is 107
<corno> Ampelbein, you here?
<cdbs> Hello all, when an autosync happens, does the -changes list get flooded?
<StevenK> It shouldn't.
<cdbs> hmm
 * cdbs subscribes
<corno> after testing a fix, if you want to downgrade the package again to the latest stable version, or rather, just to put the version back before installing the fix to test
<corno> is the best way to do this the following:  sudo apt-get install pkg=version  ?
<corno> i chose the version to downgrade to by first:  apt-cache showpkg pkgname
<Laibsch> corno: this is not the right channel for this kind of question.  FWIW, I use aptitude which allows me to graphically choose which version to install.
<corno> Laibsch, apologies for posting question here, in hindsight not that relevant to this channel.  just the reason why i had to do this was becuase i've done a "pbuilder-dist <release> build ../<package>_<version>.dsc" for the usb-creator tool and then installed it with dpkg from the "pbuilder" dir.  just wanted to downgrade again.
<Laibsch> Sure.  I fully understand.  I hope my answer got you going in the right direction.
<corno> Laibsch, it sure did - appreciated.
<Laibsch> cool :-D
<Laibsch> I have a weird pbuilder problem that I hope you can help me with.  I want to recompile the latest grub2 for lucid.  I get an error "dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: libdevmapper-dev (>= 2:1.02.34) libfuse-dev mtools", yet these should be available as logging in to pbuilder shows: http://paste.debian.net/115542/
<cjwatson> jcastro,ScottK: uds-organizers> done
<siretart> I'm going to upload libav 0.7_beta1 RSN (the successor of ffmpeg). Given its amount of reverse dependencies, I'd expect a number of changes required in other packages
<ior3k> hey all
<ior3k> conkeror is now marked as obsolete in synaptic (natty)
<ior3k> does this mean the package has been abandoned?
<ScottK> cjwatson: Thanks.
<maxb> The Ubuntu Installation Guide for natty contains a broken link to the example preseed file from the page at https://help.ubuntu.com/11.04/installation-guide/amd64/appendix-preseed.html
<maxb> Where should I be reporting this, and is it likely that the preseed file exists somewhere else that I can look at? Or perhaps it has not actually been written?
<cjwatson> maxb: IIRC ubuntu-doc maintains that part of the site (although ubuntu-installer maintains the actual manual itself).  And it certainly has been written - see e.g. https://help.ubuntu.com/10.10/installation-guide/example-preseed.txt
<cjwatson> (which can't be transferred exactly, although it's similar)
<hyperair> hi. is there any core dev around here willing to look into a patch for samba which fixes a winbind bug that causes libc to segfault on lookups?
<hyperair> bug #529714
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 529714 in samba (Ubuntu Natty) "rhythmbox crashed with SIGSEGV in _nss_wins_gethostbyname_r()" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/529714
<thechef> Is it technically possible to run two sessions on one screen concurrently (without using Xnest)?
<geser> cjwatson: Hi, do you want to sponsor my vim merge or should I add it to the sponsoring queue? (bug 774233)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 774233 in vim (Ubuntu) "Merge vim 2:7.3.154+hg~74503f6ee649-2 from Debian unstable" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/774233
<cjwatson> geser: just add it to the queue, I certainly won't get to it until at least Tuesday and most of next week is likely to be taken up with UDS planning
<cjwatson> hm, merges.u.c is broken again, will have to look at that
<tiagoboldt> so, I'm having major issues with my wifi module, read in launchpad that fix has been commited to the kernel and will be released on the next update, any idea when will that happen? on natty
<corno> i was wondering, when i want to start working on a bug, what is the best process:  to do dev in local environment and then just add a patch to the bug in LaunchPad.   or to actually push (bzr push) it to LaunchPad and then do the "Propose for merging"?
<cjwatson> update on merges.ubuntu.com: turns out there's a package in Debian that requires patch 2.6 to unpack, so I've sent an RT to upgrade the system in question to a suitable version
<geser> just curious: how long do such tickets usually take to get done?
<cjwatson> I can't say I would necessarily expect it to be done over the weekend :P
<cjwatson> I imagine early next week
<geser> is was clear to me that it doesn't happen over the weekend, more if it happens during the next week, the next two weeks or even longer
<cjwatson> I would expect only a few days, not least because I'll pester about it once I'm actually at work ;-)
<dupondje> Somebody knows when a new kernel will appear in Natty ?
<dupondje> having some annoying bug atm :(
<geser> hmm, every armel build in oneiric fails with "/usr/bin/apt-cache exit status 11"
<ScottK> geser: Bug #774175
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 774175 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt segfaults on armel in oneiric" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/774175
<penguin42> it's in a vsnprintf so it's pretty likely the shrink wrap bug (although the 1GB memory mmap is suspicious)
<cjwatson> penguin42: if it were just the shrink-wrap bug, then it surely would also have affected natty's apt built on oneiric.  ScottK tested that and ruled it out.
<penguin42> true I guess
<penguin42> (How do you rebuild the apt-cache in the archive if every build including the apt-cache build fails?)
<cjwatson> penguin42: we would get lamont to explicitly roll back the chroots to natty's version of apt, and build apt with that
<penguin42> ah ok
<lamont> cjwatson: do we have source uploaded  yet?  and is it just armel that will need the extra love?
<cjwatson> lamont: no
<cjwatson> I mean, no source uploaded yet.  just armel as far as I know ...
<lamont> ok.
<geser> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ shows only armel having this problem
<Who__> Are there any Mac/OS X specialists who can take a look at this bug? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/774089
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 774089 in Ubuntu "Booting fails 3 times, works every fourth time after new install of Natty Narwhal amd64 on Macbook Pro" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<Who__> Apple claim that a new logic board is required to fix the issue, which is major for something that one can run in to on a close to default install
<Who__> I presume there's a way to fix whatever boot/EFI stuff that seems to be corrupted, but the Apple Genius didn't know of one...
<Who__> Note that I swapped out hard drives...
<penguin42> Who__: Do you have an external monitor on - I'm just curious if something was on the external display?
<Who__> penguin42: didn't connect one
<mdke> SpamapS: thanks for the -proposed love
<penguin42> Who__: Might be worth a go, nothing to lose
<Who__> but seeing as the network debug utility that the Apple Store use didn't even start, I think it's deeper than that
<Who__> penguin42: I don't have the computer with me now _ I left it with them to debug
<Who__> a shame I know, but I need it to work again reliably asap and I don't have forever to debug it!
<dupondje> bleh :( Kernel of natty feels bugged :(
<MTecknology> root@panther:/opt/chroot# chroot oneiric/
<MTecknology> groups: cannot find name for group ID 0
<MTecknology> I have no name!@panther:/#
<MTecknology> neat...
<penguin42> hmm and I've got an arm one in qemu, and yep apt segs there as well
#ubuntu-devel 2011-05-01
<MTecknology> we can almost have a penguin release :D
<MTecknology> that just flew into my mind
<MTecknology> perfect penguin ?
<arand_> MTecknology: I'd rather guess at "precocious pygoscelis" or so ;)
<MTecknology> arand_: from the name of this one - it wouldn't surprise me; but i'm hoping for something a little more off the wall this time :P
<MTecknology> proud penguin would be nice
<arand_> MTecknology: Actually, it being unusual words is I'd say a good thing, "natty" makes a better codename than "proud", since it isn't really used in any other context. Oneiric is bad since it's spelly, and 3-4 syllables, though (I think..)
 * penguin42 notes a penguin release would be excellent
<MTecknology> :P
<evfool> If I have two separate bzr branches of a project in separate directories, how can I merge them?
<MTecknology> evfool: do they share a common ancestor?
<evfool> MTecknology: branched a project, made some commits, but there were more commits in the project trunk since, and I'd like to update my branch for the latest trunk
<MTecknology> evfool: 'bzr merge' should work
<evfool> bzr merge where? in my branch dir, something like local-branch$ bzr merge lp:project?
<evfool> MTecknology^
<MTecknology> evfool: example.. bzr branch lp:branch1; cd branch1; bzr merge branch2
<evfool> thanks MTecknology
<G> ummm is it me, or is oneiric basically uninstallable when it comes to any SSL related voodoo? seems the current ca-certificates package requires openssl >=1.0.0 but openssl is still 0.9.8...
<broder> G: oneiric just opened a couple of days ago. it may take some time for the dust to settle
<micahg> G: ca-certs was sync'd, openssl needs a merge
<G> yeah, looks like ca-certificates got synced yeah
<G> micahg: yeah, just realised that after some digging
<G> was hoping to test a merge I was going to propose
<micahg> G: pull the ca-certs from natty
<broder> anybody around know about the armel ftbfs from apt? can i assume that someone will retry all of the failed builds once it gets taken care of?
<G> micahg: yep, just trying to remember how to do it with pbuilder, it's been a while
<ohsix> apport is pretty patronising post release
<cjwatson> broder: yes, you can assume that
<cjwatson> G: I would be astonished if oneiric were installable right now
<cjwatson> I have an openssl merge in progress, but it's non-trivial
<G> cjwatson: yeah, I was just making sure that I wasn't going crazy
<cdbs> cjwatson: ping
<cdbs> cjwatson: Oneiric is installable
 * cdbs is using it
<cdbs> cjwatson: moreover, did an autosync just take place?
<cjwatson> cdbs: don't ping me about oneiric being uninstallable a couple of days into the cycle.  it's practically uninstallable *by design* at this point. :-)
<cjwatson> cdbs: I'm doing more or less daily autosyncs at the moment, and yes I just did one.
<cdbs> makes sense
<cdbs> cjwatson: I didn't ping about it being *not* installable, I was just answering your line: < cjwatson> G: I would be astonished if oneiric were installable right now
<cjwatson> oh, you said installable
<cjwatson> cdbs: why ping me then?
<cdbs> cjwatson: ignoring the autosync, I was just notifying and correcting you, since G had probably asked you earlier :)
<cdbs> okay, then, never mind
<cjwatson> anyway, I'm sure parts of it are installable and parts not.  we have an automatic report for such things.  http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/oneiric_probs.html
<cjwatson>     armel:743
<cjwatson>     amd64:672
<cjwatson>     i386:678
<cjwatson> (uninstallable counts in main by architecture)
<cdbs> I dunno after the autosync, before it oneiric was perfect
<cdbs> okay, /me g2g
<cjwatson> I stand by my previous comment. :-)
<cjwatson> before the autosync, oneiric was mostly natty :-)
<cjwatson> so of course it would be generally installable
<jsimmons> It looks like there's a bug in the libglew-1.5-dev package in 11.04, to the point you can't even compile code using it.
<jsimmons> I don't know how it could have possibly been missed but anyway.
<lfaraone> kenvandine: In natty, I'm not seeing that bug 621953 has been fixed; scrolling via the keyboard still doesn't work.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 621953 in gwibber (Ubuntu) "Can't scroll feed using keyboard" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/621953
<echo6> I'm trying to compile splashutils from source on Narwal, /usr/lib/klibc/include/linux/posix_types.h:47:29 fata error: asm/posix_types.h: No such file or directory
<echo6> Not sure if this is a bug in libklibc-dev or other? and whether I should report it as such on launchpad
<lfaraone> let me see, echo6.
<lfaraone> echo6: that's not an Ubuntu package, is it?
<echo6> splashutils isn't, but libklibc-dev is
<Laibsch> I have a weird pbuilder problem that I hope you can help me with.  I want to recompile the latest grub2 for lucid.  I get an error "dpkg-checkbuilddeps: Unmet build dependencies: libdevmapper-dev (>= 2:1.02.34) libfuse-dev mtools", yet these should be available as logging in to pbuilder shows: http://paste.debian.net/115542/
<geser> Laibsch: have you tried to install those packages (in your pbuilder)?
<AndreaAzzarone> hi, someone can help me?
<AndreaAzzarone> regards libglade and gtk
<AndreaAzzarone> *gtk3
<Laibsch> geser: you mean to include those packages in base.tgz?  Good idea, I actually hadn't though about that.  Hopefully that will get me to build the package.  I still wonder why the installation from inside the pbuilder run itself doesn't seem to work.
<Laibsch> AndreaAzzarone: Ask your question and you will see if somebody can help you.  libglade and gtk sounds like you want to ask in #ubuntu-app-devel, though
<geser> Laibsch: I meant to try installing it to check if they're installable or not
<AndreaAzzarone> Laibsch, thanks! I already solved my problem ;)
<Laibsch> geser: yes, the packages are installable: http://paste.debian.net/115629/ (from inside the pbuilder)
<geser> hmm, then I wonder why you got the error
<Laibsch> geser: hehe, yes, me too.  I really don't understand that one.
<Laibsch> I'm now including the packages in base.tgz temporarily. Build the package and then purge them again.
<dupondje> dev's are taking a nap ? :
<dupondje> :)
<echo6> It would appear Narwal linux-libc-dev: 2.6.38-8.42 is missing /usr/include/asm/ directory
<ogra_> should be in asm-generic
<micahg> echo6: now in the multiarch path
<echo6> yes, i had to create a symlink to ./i386-linux-gnu/asm
<Ampelbein> echo6: that defeats the purpose of multiarch, doesn't it?
<micahg> echo6: you shouldn't need to create the symlink
<echo6> it was the only way I could compile something from source
<micahg> echo6: the package is broke then, each arch has the proper path
<Ampelbein> the application should be fixed then
<echo6> thanks, at least I can contact the author
<echo6> hmm, the error was generated from /usr/lib/klibc/linux/posix_types.h:47:29
<echo6> it expects to find asm/posix_types.h
<Ampelbein> echo6: what error? If the application uses the correct -I parameter, there should be no problem.
<echo6> Ampelbein: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rootskel/+bug/765903
<ubottu> Ubuntu bug 765903 in rootskel (Ubuntu) "rootskel version 1.94ubuntu1 failed to build on i386" [High,New]
<Ampelbein> echo6: hmm, that should be fixed with newest klibc, see https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/klibc/1.5.20-1ubuntu6
<echo6> Ampelbein: That is the version I'm using and getting errors with
<echo6> Ampelbein: Sorry, I see now there is a patch 1.5.20-1ubuntu61.5.20-1ubuntu6
<ScottK> slangasek: It looks like Bug 764096 may be a multiarch related issue.  Would you please have a look.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 764096 in postfix (Ubuntu) "DNS hostname lookups fail in chroot after natty upgrade" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/764096
<cjohnston> Is something wrong with apport retrace?
 * arpan is away: Gone away for now
<lifeless> cjohnston: why do you ask?
<calc> anyone happen to know why the ubuntu desktop amd64 zsync file doesn't work?
<calc> it downloads then won't proceed to download the iso itself
<calc> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/602014/
<arand_> calc: Seems like all of the zsync isos fail for some reason..
<calc> arand_: any idea who should be alerted to the issue?
<arand_> calc: 'fraid no..
<cjwatson> calc,arand_: you can file a bug on the ubuntu-cdimage project
#ubuntu-devel 2012-04-23
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> slangasek: I can remove 628104 from the dupe db, so that apport will take the next incoming bug as the new master bug
<pitti> slangasek: done
<Sarvatt> pitti: thats possible? could you do the same for 933504? its sucking up unrelated bugs and the retracer is deleting the good stacktrace info from the dupes that are unrelated. i filed 2 completely unrelated bugs that got duped to it and have been fixed in the meantime
<pitti> Sarvatt: sure, removing
<Sarvatt> pitti: thank you so much, i've been struggling to figure out why apport was duping in that sitation and doko's bug everything is getting duped to has been fixed for months, a new master bug with current issues will help
<Sarvatt> it would be extremely nice if it didnt remove stacktraces btw when it decides its a duplicate :)
<pitti> Sarvatt: that's a tradeoff we need to decide about
<pitti> Sarvatt: making duplicate bugs public automatically, or keeping stack traces in dupes
<Sarvatt> theres situations where stacktraces need to be private?
<Sarvatt> i never see them so seems strange to me, deleting the core dump should be enough
<pitti> yes, they can potentially contain passwords, credentials, or other private information
<pitti> that might also be project names you are working on, etc.
<pitti> apport anonymizes the initial information that it sends (home directory, wifi passwords, and the like)
<pitti> but we don't anonymize stack traces
<pitti> (because that's a hard and fuzzy problem)
<lifeless> pitti: you need to make the master public
<lifeless> pitti: we pay a continual cost due to it not being public.
<lifeless> s/you/we/
<pitti> with ev's whoopsie DB this will hopefully be better soon
<pitti> as it can potentially offer more fine-grained control to data than a LP bug
<pitti> so that we can keep the dupes private in LP as well, or not have them in the first place any more, etc.
<pitti> but yes, there is also bug 764414
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 764414 in apport (Ubuntu) "private master bugs are confusing and lead to more duplicate filings" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/764414
<pitti> the second part there got mitigated by client-side dupe detection, but "confusing" still stands
<pitti> jamespage: hey
<pitti> jamespage: I just noticed that https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/oneiric/+queue?queue_state=0 has a 6 month old jonas-full-5.2 upload from you; is that still relevant?
<pitti> Sarvatt: btw, there is one trick -- close the main master bug (fix released, invalid, etc.)
<pitti> Sarvatt: then the next duplicate that comes in will become a new master bug, and apport just points out "this looks like that bug ---> over there, but that is already fixed"
<RAOF> That's also super-confusing, though.
<Sarvatt> pitti: i needed confirmation from the reporter that it was fixed to actually close it even though i know its fixed and he hasnt responded, doko was hitting the eglibc bug months ago :)
<Sarvatt> i guess just closing it is appropriate at this point
<slangasek> pitti: thanks!  Is there a way that this should be self-service, like bug patterns were before?
<pitti> slangasek: it's a bit harder, as you need sudo -u ubuntu-archive -i on osageorange
<pitti> slangasek: i. e. you can
<pitti> slangasek: for the layman developer it's either "close the old master bug" or "ping seb128 or me"
<slangasek> hmm, ok
<slangasek> well, even when the master bug was closed, users were apparently being directed there
<pitti> ah, I guess they would, yes
<pitti> so in many case this is actually right, especially for bugs which got fixed recently and people are still running older versions (or older releases)
<pitti> so for the "that master bug needs a new stack trace" case that doesn't work
<pitti> slangasek: we could make it self-service with a tag like apport-nodup or apport-newtrace
<slangasek> I think that might be best
<dupondje> could someone check https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/remmina/+bug/952964
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 952964 in remmina (Ubuntu) "[SRU] Mouse Wheel does not work in RDP (12.04)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<dupondje> thx :)
<ev> Do we have a general approach for handling not being able to lock /etc/passwd in a postinst?
<jamespage> pitti, I'd not realised that had not actually landed in oneiric...
<diwic> jibel, ping
<jibel> diwic, pong
<diwic> jibel, in bug 981149 you claim that your headset shows a digital profile. Could you file a separate bug for your issue with "ubuntu-bug pulseaudio" and point me to it?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 981149 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "pulseaudio crashed with SIGABRT in pa_sink_input_finish_move()" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/981149
<jibel> diwic, ack
<diwic> jibel, if you do so the bug report will contain the name string needed to put in /usr/share/alsa/cards/USB-Audio.con
<diwic> f
<jibel> diwic, bug 987163
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 987163 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "Logitech H800 wireless headset shows digital profile" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/987163
<diwic> jibel, thanks! I will collect these and make an SRU out of them
<jibel> diwic, is it the name I should but in USB-audio.conf "Logitech Logitech Wireless Headset at usb-0000:00:16.0-4, full speed" ?
<diwic> jibel, the string is: "Logitech Wireless Headset" 999
<jibel> s/but/put
<jibel> diwic, ok, thanks!
<jibel> doko, ping
<doko> jibel, hi
<jdstrand_> roaksoax: hi! I was reviewing the maas-provision changes and wonder why you install the apparmor profile disabled?
<dupondje> Its so silent here today :)
<hrw> hi
<hrw> I know it is late but bug 890928 could get fixed by syncing newer version from debian.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 890928 in libxkbfile (Ubuntu) "When trying to install libxkbfile1:i386 the pkg manager asks to remove too many important packages [Multi-arch]" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/890928
<ScottK> hrw: It will have to be uploaded to precise-proposed at this point.  Too late for a straight sync.
<hrw> ScottK: 1.0.8-1 can be accepted in -proposed?
<pitti> note that we can sync into -proposed, but that needs some extra bookkeeping as the changelog wouldn't have a LP bug ref
<pitti> multiarchification doesn't need a new upstream release, though
<ScottK> For proposed it should be the minimal change to solve the problem.
<dupondje> could someone check https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/remmina/+bug/952964 ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 952964 in remmina (Ubuntu) "[SRU] Mouse Wheel does not work in RDP/VNC (12.04)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<seb128> dupondje, that seems fine for a SRU, can you subscribe ubuntu-sponsors so it doesn't get lost?
<seb128> oh, it's already done
<dupondje> quite annoying bug :) seems like it affects quite some people also
<hrw> ScottK: so debdiff from bug should be fine as it has only multiarch stuff in it
<seb128> dupondje, yeah, as said SRU should be no problem for it
<seb128> dupondje, it's too late for non SRU uploads
<ScottK> hrw: Without looking, I'd say yes.  Please make sure ubuntu-sponsors is subscribed.
<dupondje> as long it gets uploaded i'm happy :D
<hrw> ScottK: they are
<ScottK> OK.
<StevenK> stgraber: Can I be unsubscribed from ISO testing? The website says the page is still in progress.
<stgraber> StevenK: sure
<stgraber> StevenK: done
<dupondje> seb128: another small question, I see that clipboard doesn't work neither in Remmina. better to have 2 uploads or 1 with both fixed ?
<seb128> dupondje, one with both fixed is fine if you are confident with the fixes
<dupondje> well scrolling is fixed (and accepted upstream also). Need to check how to fix clipboard :)
<StevenK> stgraber: Thanks!
<mterry> Name for Q announced: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/?p=1121
<jussi> yeah... we always knew it would be strange :P
<kklimonda> QQ moar ;)
<doko> jamespage, online?
<jamespage> doko, yep
<mterry> kklimonda, hah, never thought of the opportunity for QQ jokes
<pitti> mterry: at last!
<mterry> pitti, right up to the wire.  :)
<pitti> after so many alliterations my head is smoking now :)
<pitti> "quantal" as an adjective is barely in the dictionary..
<barry> pitti: once again, my own suggestion isn't even mentioned: qwazy quahog
<pitti> mhall119: could you jump into #ubuntu-desktop for a bit, please?
<roaksoax> jdstrand: howdy!! TBH I used the changes in packaging of rsyslog for the apparmor installation in maas-provision. However, given tha aa-status showed that the profile was being enforced I didn't think it was really disabled
<IntuitiveNipple> Is anyone looking at the grub2 regression where grub fails to function on mdraid devices (LP: #987354 Debian 668920) after an upgrade to Precise?
<ubottu> Debian bug 668920 in grub-pc "grub-pc: grub 1.99-21 fails to detect mdraid partitions" [Critical,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/668920
<cjwatson> IntuitiveNipple: Usually that's due to incorrect installation location.  'dpkg-reconfigure grub-pc' and make sure all disks your system might boot from are selected.
<cjwatson> Every time there's an ABI change between GRUB core and modules we get a flurry of this kind of question.
<cjwatson> Which does indicate a problem somewhere, probably, but not where most people think it is :-)
<IntuitiveNipple> cjwatson: Yes, I noticed your comment on the Debian bug. I'm trying to identify a way to recover at the grub rescue prompt right now since the server has no alternate boot means
<IntuitiveNipple> cjwatson: I'm delving into the changes since -17 right now, I'll see what I can find
<cjwatson> Like I say, there's an ABI change since -17.
<cjwatson> So if your GRUB is improperly installed, you might have core image and modules that no longer know how to talk to each other.
<cjwatson> http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub.html#GRUB-only-offers-a-rescue-shell
<cjwatson> There may not be a way to recover from there alone, although you might get lucky somehow.
<IntuitiveNipple> cjwatson: It's annoying since about the only rescue command that works is "set" !
<jdstrand> roaksoax: I think you didn't unload it or something in your testing-- aa-status didn't show it as loaded here. It couldn't get loaded by the packaging because you specified the wrong file to dh-apparmor
<jdstrand> roaksoax: see my changes in https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=
<jdstrand> roaksoax: also, please see bug #987374
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 987374 in maas-provision (Ubuntu) "apparmor denials when using 'maas-import-isos'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/987374
<jdstrand> roaksoax: I mentioned this to Daviey in #ubuntu-release already
<IntuitiveNipple> cjwatson: I've just found a neat workaround to get booted... in BIOS I changed the order of the first two hard disks around on the premise that only the 2nd half of the mirror had been updated by grub-pc. It's allowed the server to boot so I can now at least sort it out
<cjwatson> Makes sense
<cjwatson> So now fix things in 'dpkg-reconfigure grub-pc' and that won't happen again
<IntuitiveNipple> Saves having to open the system and put in a CD-ROM
<IntuitiveNipple> Yeah. I'll look to see what precisely is wrong with the existing configuration now
<jdstrand> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Precise: Final Freeze | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> oneiric | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: jdstrand
<Adri2000> cjwatson: out of curiosity, why did you add Pre-Depends: dpkg (>= 1.15.7.2) for dpkg-maintscript-helper in horizon? horizon is only in precise and dpkg-maintscript-helper has been available for the last few releases, so I don't see in what use cases it could be useful. except if we support a single apt operation which would do lucid->precise _and_ install horizon, in which case horizon could be configured with a too old dpkg
<cjwatson> Adri2000: Because it's much easier to make sure every single package in the archive has that than to worry about exceptions.
<cjwatson> Adri2000: This way I could just say "http://lintian.ubuntuwire.org/tags/preinst-uses-dpkg-maintscript-helper-without-predepends.html is empty, job done".
<cjwatson> And it clearly does no harm.
<cjwatson> And yes, in theory an upgrade with, say, dselect or aptitude might install horizon before upgrading dpkg.  It doesn't hurt to be more correct.
<roaksoax> jdstrand: yeah i'm working on bug #987374
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 987374 in maas-provision (Ubuntu) "apparmor denials when using 'maas-import-isos'" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/987374
<jdstrand> roaksoax: cool, thanks
<Adri2000> cjwatson: ok. I missed the fact that lintian complains with an error about this; indeed it makes no harm to fix that everywhere
<hallyn> cjwatson: hey, i'm installing from usb (first from the desktop installer, now the alternate) onto a lenovo x130e.  i keep booting into rescue mode and running'grub-install /dev/sda', but booting from hd i immediately get "Missing operating system".  Have you seen that before?
<hallyn> (googling is not helping)
<hallyn> i guess i can try the server iso (xferred to usb), and then pxe, but i'm getting the feeling this is some uefi thing
<hallyn> i did turn off uefi in bios
<cjwatson> hallyn: no.  make sure you have grub-pc installed not grub-efi* if you intend to boot from BIOS
<cjwatson> otherwise don't know ...
<hallyn> cjwatson: well first it had uefi enabled, same failure
<hallyn> right now it's installing server iamge from pxe, will see how that goes
<hallyn> then will look for grub-pc
<roaksoax> jdstrand: so if cobblerd runs dnsmasq, do I also have to add all the permissions for dnsmasq in the cobbler apparmor profile?
<slangasek> roaksoax: what do you mean by "permissions for dnsmasq"?
<slangasek> cobblerd's profile needs to have access to run dnsmasq
<slangasek> and dnsmasq may be confined, but doesn't inherit
<roaksoax> slangasek: right, so this is what I'm adding to cobbler's appamor profile: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/942885/
<jdstrand> roaksoax: no. don't do that
<slangasek> right.  cobbler needs permission to execute /usr/sbin/dnsmasq, it should *not* be given write access to dnsmasq's own config.
<jdstrand> roaksoax: I mean, you *could*, but the mir doesn't require dnsmasq to be confined and you are adding additional privileges to cobbler
<jdstrand> roaksoax: how is it starting dnsmasq? via its initscript?
<roaksoax> jdstrand: ok then, it is starting it with service dnsmasq start
<roaksoax> jdstrand: thought this will only be an issue when someone installs maas-dhcp
<jdstrand> roaksoax: service uses the initscript?
<hallyn> cjwatson: well i can't explain it.  installing from mini-iso through pxe worked fine.  That's after 4 installation attempts from usb.  Dunno what could be different.  Hope it was "just me" and not indicative of future bug reports
<roaksoax> jdstrand: nope, dnsmasq is started with service dnsmasq start, but it also uses /etc/init.d/dnsamsq status
<bdmurray> what more should happen with bug 985462?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 985462 in apt (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu Estonian mirror broken (again!)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/985462
<jdstrand> roaksoax: I suggest starting with something like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/942898/
<jdstrand> roaksoax: that uses a child profile for service. You will probably have to add a few things to the dnsmasq_service child profile, but the idea is keep the cobbler profile confined and then just let dnsmasq do its thing
<roaksoax> jdstrand: right, so, all the files that cobbler read/writes for dnsmasq should be added in the parent profile then
<jdstrand> roaksoax: yes. if cobbler is writing out files for dnsmasq configuration, you need to let it do that in the parent
<roaksoax> jdstrand: after adding the child profile, realoding apparmor and running cobbler sync, this is shown in syslog: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/942914/
<jdstrand> roaksoax: please paste the full profile
<roaksoax> jdstrand: http://paste.ubuntu.com/942917/
<jdstrand> roaksoax: you probably just need to add this to the child profile: #include <abstractions/base>
<jdstrand> roaksoax: yes, please add that
<roaksoax> jdstrand: now I get file_mprotect
<roaksoax> err
<roaksoax> apparmor="DENIED" operation="file_mprotect" parent=31733 profile="/usr/bin/cobblerd//dnsmasq_service" name="/bin/dash" pid=31734 comm="service" requested_mask="r" denied_mask="r" fsuid=0 ouid=0
<jdstrand> roaksoax: yep, add #include <abstractions/bash>
<jdstrand> roaksoax: and also "/bin/dash ixr,"
<cjwatson> hallyn: PXE would be BIOS, but in the USB case the installer might be booted using UEFI, in which case it reasonably assumes that it should install that way too
<roaksoax> jdstrand: ok had to add a couple more things: http://paste.ubuntu.com/942936/
<jdstrand> roaksoax: can you use this instead:
<jdstrand> /usr/sbin/service ixr,
<jdstrand> /usr/bin/basename ixr,
<hallyn> cjwatson: main other difference was that every time from usb i did manual partitioning with first 120G as ext4 /, from pxe i just said 'do what you want'
<hallyn> cjwatson: like i say for most of the usb installs it was still the default (uefi)
<roaksoax> jdstrand: cool! thanks for the help. I'll test this in a clean install
<hallyn> so i'm afraid i can't be the only one who'll hit this.  but i don't understand it enough to file a bug, i think
<jdstrand> roaksoax: I was hoping to limit cobbler use of 'service' to be only dnsmasq, and the Uxr on service would allow it to do anything I think
<jdstrand> roaksoax: did the ixr for 'service' and 'basename' work for you?
<roaksoax> jdstrand: they did
<jdstrand> roaksoax: awesome :)
<roaksoax> jdstrand: indeed!! thanks! I'll test it again to make sure i'm not missing anything
<jdstrand> roaksoax: I'm betting you will want /usr/share/distro-info/ubuntu.csv r, to be /usr/share/distro-info/*csv r,
<jdstrand> roaksoax: just in case going forward
<roaksoax> jdstrand: ok so this should be it. Could you please also test it when you have the time? Thanks! http://paste.ubuntu.com/943031/
<jdstrand> roaksoax: you need writes to /usr/lib/syslinux/** ?
<jdstrand> roaksoax: I see /etc/xinetd.d/tftp rw as well-- aren't we using tftp-hpa?
<jdstrand> roaksoax: (not to mention, we don't use xinet.d)
<jdstrand> roaksoax: maybe for those use this instead:
<jdstrand> deny /etc/xinetd.d/ rw,
<jdstrand> deny /etc/xinetd.d/tftp rw,
<roaksoax> jdstrand: 1. rw to syslink, in theory not really since it hardlinks from there to /var/lib/tftpboot, but for some reason if w is not there, then it fails to hardlink
<jussi> bdrung: thats it, Im quoting you :P
<jussi> (re: meeting just now :P )
<bdrung> jussi: everything else are features ;)
<roaksoax> jdstrand: xinitd, cobbler sync fails if it cannot create that dir, as, even though we are using tftp-hpa, cobbler code still creates the dir/file
<jussi> "senior ubuntu developer claims ubuntu is bug free, world peace is near!"
<jdstrand> roaksoax: hrm-- the xineted stuff should ideally be ripped out of maas-provision, but for this, can you just add a comment on why it is needed
<jdstrand> roaksoax: re syslinux> is it hardlinking the directory or various stuff under it?
<jdstrand> roaksoax: this is also scary: /boot/memtest* rwl,
<roaksoax> jdstrand: syslinux --> various stuff under it
<roaksoax> jdstrand: yeah!! same as syslinux though
<roaksoax> jdstrand: it hardlinks from /boot/memtest* to /var/lib/tftpboot/images/
<jdstrand> roaksoax: I guess the hardlink is needed because of /var/lib/tftpboot is a chroot. is that accurate?
<roaksoax> jdstrand: yes
<jdstrand> man
<jdstrand> that stinks
<roaksoax> jdstrand: indeed
<jdstrand> roaksoax: not to mention it completely breaks if /boot or /var are on different partitions
<jdstrand> roaksoax: while I don't like it, I think I could live with the writes for xinetd and /usr/lib/syslinux (yuck though!), but I find the /boot bit unacceptable. that could affect the host in significant ways. can you just changes those to shutil.copy from /boot into /var/lib/tftpboot/<wherever>
<jdstrand> roaksoax: wherever it does the hard link, just change it to a copy. I think a bug in memtest* being out of date until a cobbler sync is better than an avenue for cobbler to trojan the host
<roaksoax> jdstrand: alright! I'll do that ;)
<jdstrand> roaksoax: with that change and a couple of comments for syslinux and xinetd, it looks great. thank you for all your work on this :)
<bdmurray> slangasek: what is supposed to happen when you insert a 12.04 cd into an 11.10 system?
<slangasek> bdmurray: a running system, or booting from it?
<bdmurray> slangasek: a running system?
<bdmurray> er s/?//
<slangasek> if it's an alternate CD it should give you the option to upgrade
<roaksoax> jdstrand: awesome! will do. Thank you for the review!
<slangasek> if it's a desktop CD, probably not much
<jdstrand> np
<slangasek> bdmurray: I guess a desktop CD would be presented as an apt source
<bdmurray> a desktop cd ended up launching synaptic for me
<bdmurray> I had forgotten about the alternate / desktop distinction
<slangasek> hmm
<slangasek> I'm not sure why it would launch synaptic
<bdmurray> well it looks like this is executed
<bdmurray>  /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/update-notifier/backend_helper.py add_cdrom /media/Ubuntu\ 11.10\ i386
<bdmurray> anyway I didn't run into bug 946718
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 946718 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "backend_helper.py crashed with RuntimeError in add_signal_receiver(): To make asynchronous calls, receive signals or export objects, D-Bus connections must be attached to a main loop by passing mainloop=... to the constructor or calling dbus.set_default_main_loop(...)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/946718
<slangasek> hmm, ok
<roaksoax> jdstrand: http://paste.ubuntu.com/943148/ http://paste.ubuntu.com/943147/
<jdstrand> roaksoax: looks good to me :) do you need someone to sponsor it?
<roaksoax> jdstrand: nope :) thanks though!
<jdstrand> np :)
<slangasek> jdstrand, roaksoax: hrm, so is this maas-provision upload to -proposed expected to make it onto the CD?
<slangasek> mmm and why does soyuz say maas-provision is now in both universe and main?
<ScottK> slangasek: Because it's in universe in -release and main in -proposed.
<slangasek> ScottK: no, I'm seeing it in -release...
<slangasek> in both in -release
<jdstrand> slangasek: roaksoax is uploading an ubuntu4 that should be on the CD aiui. the maas-provision in precise-proposed satisifies the mir requirements, so I put it in main. ubuntu2 in the archive does not, so I left it alone
<ScottK> Hmm. different revisions?
<ScottK> Maybe ubuntu2 just didn't get tossed out yet?
<jdstrand> slangasek: so, I accidentally put the one in release in main, but later fixed that
<jdstrand> and then put the one in -proposed in main
<slangasek> jdstrand: ah.  Did you do that within a single publishing cycle?  That may be what's confused the world
<slangasek> ok, so we weren't actually ready to respin server because the maas-provision we care about is the one in -proposed still
<jdstrand> slangasek: I put ubuntu2 in -release in one cycle and -ubuntu3 in -proposed to main/-ubuntu2 -release to universe in another
<jdstrand> slangasek: re respin> correct> but note that even though ubuntu3 in prposed satisifies the mir requirement, it does not satisfy the server team's quality requirement. roaksoax's ubuntu4 will do that
<jdstrand> slangasek: (aiui)
<jdstrand> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Precise: Final Freeze | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> oneiric | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<kklimonda> jono: hey, are you around?
#ubuntu-devel 2012-04-24
<jono> hey kklimonda
<pitti> Good morning
<ajmitch> morning pitti
<pitti> RAOF, SpamapS, slangasek, cjwatson, ScottK: FYI, I switched queuediff's default release to precise
<fossilet> Hello.
<fossilet> What is the procedure to propose a certain package update after precise release?
<fossilet> Is it just file a bug in Launchpad?
<micahg> !sponsorship | fossilet
<ubottu> fossilet: You can find out about the package sponsorship process here http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess - For !UDS sponsorship see http://uds.ubuntu.com/participate/sponsorship/
<fossilet> It is updated recently in debian sid,  may later into testing.
<fossilet> I suppose this update will not be synced to precise automatically, right?
<fossilet> I have to upload it and find someone to sponsor it to the master archive?
<micahg> fossilet: if it's unchanged in Ubuntu, it'll be autosync'd for quantal
<micahg> fossilet: which package?
<fossilet> 4digits
<fossilet> Because the version in precise has a severe bug.
<micahg> fossilet: you could run requestsync -e now if you want, unseeded universe is open for another 6 hours
<fossilet> I still have time?
<fossilet> wiki says 1.5 days before
<fossilet> final release
<fossilet> unseeded means not on cd/dvd?
<micahg> fossilet: yes, that's 12:00 UTC today :), right now it's 06:00
 * micahg still has at least one more upload
<fossilet> so precise timing
<fossilet> micahg,  Can you help me run that command? I have no ubuntu now. And after home, I may be later?
<fossilet> late*
<micahg> fossilet: do you have a launchpad account?
<fossilet> yes
<fossilet> fossilet
<micahg> fossilet: can you log in and edit the description for the reason for the new version?
<fossilet> where
<micahg> launchpad
<fossilet> edit where?
<micahg> in the bug I'm about to file ;)
<fossilet> ok
<micahg> fossilet: actually looks like it's all bug fix, I"m syncing it now
<fossilet> yup,
<fossilet> This process does need some previlige?
<RAOF> Hey, are we expecting to VT switch on suspend?
<micahg> fossilet: requestsync doesn't (just ubuntu-dev-tools installed), syncing the package requires upload rights (which I just did)
<fossilet> micahg, Thank you=)
<micahg> fossilet: you're welcome
<fossilet> micahg, one more question. Is precise still autosynced with debian testing even after release?
<micahg> fossilet: no, new package versions will only go into quantal, these can be backported to precise if new features are needed (with the appropriate testing, see requestbackport script for more info), or fixes can be cherry picked and SRUd  (Stable Release Update) to precise
<fossilet> what is quantal?
<micahg> 12.10
<fossilet> Oh, you even know that
<fossilet> top secret
<micahg> fossilet: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1121
<fossilet> not a animal!
<fossilet> Oh
<StevenK> Qantal is the codename
<micahg> Quetzal is certainly an animal of sorts
<fossilet> ya
<slangasek> "Quantal" - it's not named after your national airline ;P
<slangasek> RAOF: "vt switch on suspend" - no, but I think we still put the VT into text mode?
<StevenK> slangasek: Bleh :-(
<slangasek> :)
<micahg> slangasek: well, if the blog title "Quality had a new name" was satirical ;)
<dholbach> good morning
<RAOF> slangasek: Reading the pm-utils scripts, it seems that we do still chvt to 63?
<RAOF> Maybe?
<RAOF> slangasek: I ask because if we *do* VT switch on suspend then bug #968845 is a whole lot easier to solve.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 968845 in xserver-xorg-input-synaptics (Ubuntu) "bcm5974 touchpad doesn't work after S3 on MacBookAir" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/968845
<speakman> Hi folks. I'm about to fix #968845 but I'm not sure how to handle patches in <srcdir>/debian/patches/. Are there any documents how to do it?
<pitti> speakman: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/PatchSystems documents the most common patch systems we have
<speakman> pitti: thanks alot!
<speakman> hmm... trying to build precies packages on oneric wasn't that very smart... How can I revert "sudo apt-get build-dep xxx"?
<RAOF> speakman: Have your root filesystem on btrfs, be using apt-btrfs-snapshot, and do a rollback? :)
<speakman> RAOF: I wish! ;)
<micahg> speakman: run sudo mk-build-deps -i -r and uninstall?
<RAOF> speakman: Presumably you've added precise sources to your sources.list in order to grab the needed versions of the build-deps?
<micahg> you have to run that in the source dir
<speakman> RAOF: I bzr branch'ed the package I was gonna fix and it (of course) lacked build dependencies. Just did "sudo apt-get build-dep xserver-xorg-input-synaptics" totally forgetting I was on Oneric (It's my home computer running Precise). :)
<RAOF> Oh, then that's easy; micahg's command will work.
<speakman> micahg: thanks, it created a xserver-xorg-input-synaptics-build-deps package, installed it and then removed it. Free'd 36,9 kB.
<micahg> well, the only issue is if the initial install marked the packages as manual
<RAOF> I was thinking that you'd installed precise packages on oneiric to satisfy some build-deps; that's a different kettle of fish.
<speakman> I could go into apt log and remove manually of course.
<micahg> speakman: means there's a build dep conflict (not surprising on oneiric), you can run lesspipe on the deb (get rid of the -i and sudo even) and see what you need to remove
<micahg> speakman: be careful and what the removal output that it doesn't try to remove half your system or X or something
<hyperair> any ubuntu-sru and ubuntu-release around? bug #981856 needs a sponsor
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 981856 in glib-networking (Ubuntu) "glib-pacrunner does not support file:// pac files" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/981856
<hyperair> er i meant ubuntu-sru and ubuntu-sponsors (main)
<micahg> hyperair: you just need a core-dev or desktopper to upload
<hyperair> yeah
<speakman> sorry, but what's a "sponsor"?
<hyperair> that's right.
<hyperair> speakman: someone with upload privileges and willing to review packages for upload
<speakman> Thanks
<hyperair> speakman: while anyone can contribute to ubuntu, not everyone can directly upload into the archive. so people who don't have upload access to ubuntu require sponsors to review their contributions and upload them into ubuntu
<speakman> Thanks I see
<dholbach> and once you've worked with sponsors for a while and you gained their trust and some experience, you can apply for upload rights yourself :)
 * speakman having a hard time just making a package install a script into /etc/pm/sleep.d/ :p
<speakman> Should I make a patch which modifies Makefile.am to install the file, or should the debian/rules install it? It's a workaround for touchpads to be rmmod'ed and instantly insmod'ed after sleep: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-input-synaptics/+bug/968845
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 968845 in xserver-xorg-input-synaptics (Ubuntu) "bcm5974 touchpad doesn't work after S3 on MacBookAir" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<speakman> Ubuntu on MacBook Air is really unusable in the current state :(
<hyperair> speakman: that depends on whether this should go upstream
<hyperair> if the script is ubuntu-specific, then just drop something in debian/package-name.install
<dholbach> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Precise: Final Freeze | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> oneiric | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: dholbach
<hyperair> (and include the script in debian/
<hyperair> speakman: if other distributions can benefit from the patch, you should amend Makefile.am to install the script, and send the patch upstream
<dholbach> hyperair, regarding the glib-networking fix - I just had a look at the SRU procedure - do you think you could add a test-case to the bug description?
<hyperair> dholbach: hmm okay.
<speakman> hyperair: I think it's a quick workaround for now. It seems like no one really knows where the bug is. Re-inserting the bcm driver at least makes it work. It's a pure workaround but I don't the Precise should release without it (unless the real bug is fixed).
<Laney> speakman: I've been interested in that bug too, and was going to do the patch (but since I didn't I'm glad you are). Just put it in debian/ and then reference it in debian/package-name.install as hyperair said.
<RAOF> speakman: You should be aware that I've *probably* got a better fix for that bug.
<Laney> yeah?
<RAOF> Allow me to reboot, and check precise-proposed.
<speakman> Laney: I was about to do it, but forgot I was on Oneric here at work. My MBA running Precise is at home. :)
<speakman> RAOF: that would be awesome!
<dholbach> can somebody please reject https://code.launchpad.net/~kroq-gar78/ubuntu/precise/scala/fix-987561/+merge/103191 based on my comment?
<stgraber> dholbach: looking
<dholbach> thanks stgraber
<stgraber> dholbach: done
<dholbach> merci beaucoup
<RAOF> Laney, speakman: You can snaffle the source from the Unapproved queue; feel free to test it :) https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+queue?queue_state=1&queue_text=
<Laney> If I'd have known then I would have taken my laptop to work :P
<Laney> still, nice. thanks!
<dholbach> slangasek, is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxml2/+bug/987502 sru material or something we should just fix through a merge from Debian in quantal?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 987502 in libxml2 (Ubuntu) "libxml2-dev: /usr/bin/xml2-config isn't identical across all arch" [Medium,Triaged]
<dholbach> or a sync rather - nice
<hyperair> dholbach: okay, i've put a test case into bug #981856
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 981856 in glib-networking (Ubuntu) "glib-pacrunner does not support file:// pac files" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/981856
<dholbach> thanks a lot hyperair - I'll take a look
<speakman> RAOF: Looks great! How to inform the bug report subscribers it's about to be solved?
<dholbach> hyperair, good work on the patch - it works :)
<RAOF> speakman: That works correctly for you, then?  Next time someone who isn't me goes through the SRU queue it'll get a request-to-test on the bug.
<speakman> RAOF: Sorry, I've got my MBA at home and can't test right now. I just went through the code changes and the original bug report at redhat and so on. I could go fetch my MBA in a few hours though. How do I get your proposed update? Just enable "Precise Proposed Updates" in the Software Souce settings?
<RAOF> speakman: Yes, but only once it's actually *in* proposed; it needs to be accepted by an SRU team member.
<speakman> Ok, I see! I'm not very familiar with the Ubuntu release path, but I'm learning  :)
<speakman> Any idea where to get in touch with the utouch developers? (that's the folks working on multi touch gestures and stuff on Ubuntu right?)
<speakman> RAOF: pitti just accepted your update and commented in bug report. Great! Will test as soon as it's available. :)
<hyperair> dholbach: great, thanks =)
<dholbach> anytime :)
<pitti> anyone here familiar with Chinese Ubuntu? ArneGoetje, freeflying?
<pitti> the Chinese image is oversized by 9 MB
<pitti> based on this, our options are to remove one of: ttf-wqy-zenhei (we already ship microhei), ibus-table-wubi (we already ship sunpinyin), or libreoffice-help-zh-cn
<pitti> what would hurt least?
<pitti> note that a network install will pull these in, but not if you install offline, and it's also an issue for the live session
<dholbach> dpm, ^ who could help out with pitti's question?
<dpm> dholbach, pitti, I cannot help with this. I can ask on #ubuntu-cn-translators, but I'm not sure there is someone knowledgeable on fonts
<pitti> I was hoping that freeflying is still online
<pitti> happyaron isn't unfortunately
<freeflying> pitti: anything I can help?
<pitti> freeflying: I had a question 10 minutes ago here; I can re-post if you need
<pitti> freeflying: hey, how are you?
<freeflying> pitti: good, thanks
 * freeflying scrolling back
<freeflying> pitti: ttf-wqy-zenhei and sunpin can be dropped
<pitti> freeflying: oh, so the android pinyin db is "good enough"?
<pitti> freeflying: it's actually enough to drop just one of these, i. e. zenhei or wubi or sunpinyin
<pitti> sunpinyin is biiig (20 MB), so dropping that would leave lots of room even
<freeflying> pitti: the best pinyin is ibus-googlepinyin
<freeflying> pitti: its footprint is much smaller than sunpinyin
<pitti> freeflying: ah, that's in universe, so a little late for precise
<pitti> freeflying: but we should get that into main in quantal then, and drop sunpinyin back to universe?
<pitti> and use it on the Chinese images
<pitti> freeflying: so dropping ttf-wqy-zenhei would be bearable?
<freeflying> pitti: sure, since microhei is already there
<pitti> freeflying: ok, many thanks!
<freeflying> pitti: drop both sunpinyin and microhei will be fine
<pitti> freeflying: does sunpinyin actually get in the way? we don't need to drop it
 * pitti would rather make minimal changes now, we just need to fix the oversizedness
<freeflying> pitti: I doubt how many people use it in real world, since googlepinyin has been in place for a while
<dholbach> slangasek, there's a number of other multiarch requests in the sponsoring queue - what's your take? are they SRU material?
<tsdgeos> ahasenack: ping
<ahasenack> tsdgeos: hey
<tsdgeos> ahasenack: did you get the unity-2d crash again? and if not did you get the debug line of the code we added?
<ahasenack> tsdgeos: neither, but I could have missed the debug line
<tsdgeos> i see
<ahasenack> tsdgeos: as the crash is by itself quite noticeable
<ahasenack> tsdgeos: still running in gdb in a terminal, and with the patch in place
<tsdgeos> would you say that without the line would have crashed before in this time you've been using it?
<tsdgeos> i.e. what was the average crashing time?
<tsdgeos> hours? days? weeks?
<ahasenack> tsdgeos: 2 days I would say
<ahasenack> tsdgeos: meaning, I wouldn't go past 2 days without a crash
<ahasenack> tsdgeos: can that log line be made a WARNING or ERROR?
<tsdgeos> and you've been running it for 2, 3 days, right?
<ahasenack> tsdgeos: yes
<tsdgeos> ahasenack: well, you can change the contents of between the quotes freely
<ahasenack> tsdgeos: sure, I was thinking about the colors :)
<tsdgeos> feel free to put something long and with lots of caps there to make it easier to notice
<tsdgeos> nah, don't think can do that
<ahasenack> ok
<dholbach> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Precise: Final Freeze | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> oneiric | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
 * ogra_ hugs dholbach 
 * dholbach hugs ogra_ back :)
<speakman>  How often is Ubuntu mirrors syncing?
<cjwatson> it'll vary; #ubuntu-mirrors should have detail
<speakman> thanks!
<cjwatson> the master updates every half an hour, I vaguely recall hearing at some point that most were four hours, but I could be out of date
<cyphermox> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Precise: Final Freeze | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> oneiric | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: cyphermox
<speakman> RAOF: Bad news, the mousepad now works after S3 but it's also scrolling the page while moving the cursor. I've enabled two-finger scroll fyi.
<pitti> speakman: can you please report this at the bug, so that it becomes verification-failed? thanks for testing!
<speakman> pitti: already did, and just replaced verification-needed with verification-failed
<pitti> thanks
<speakman> thanks for working with the bug :)
<speakman> If there's anything else I can do, please tell me.
<mneptok> is there a doily build Yoda in the house?
<mneptok> err ...
<mneptok> "daily." my wife does crochet. she can help with doilies.
<slangasek> RAOF: hmm, ok, it looks like we do still chvt switch, yes
<slangasek> dholbach: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libxml2/+bug/987502 isn't SRU material, no
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 987502 in libxml2 (Ubuntu) "libxml2-dev: /usr/bin/xml2-config isn't identical across all arch" [Medium,Triaged]
<dholbach> slangasek, and the other multiarch bugs in the sponsoring queue?
<slangasek> I haven't seen what's there
<slangasek> what's the best link for looking at the sponsoring queue?  firefox recently dumped my awesomebar cache :P
<dholbach> 978228, 890928, 977940, 977952, 987502
<dholbach> http://reqorts.qa.ubuntu.com/reports/sponsoring/
<dholbach> slangasek, if you could comment on them that'd be very nice :)
<slangasek> dholbach: several of those are candidates for SRU into precise, but I don't have time to comment on them currently; they're likely to be non-trivial
<dholbach> hum - my pilot shift is over, but I wasn't sure which of these constitute SRU material and which don't
<dholbach> I guess I'll just leave them for somebody else then
<slangasek> the only one that's probably not SRU-worthy is libpaper
<bdmurray> pitti: could you look at an sru for bug 987383?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 987383 in sessioninstaller (Ubuntu Precise) "rhythmbox triggered request for additional codecs which erroneously included multi-arch libraries" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/987383
<bdmurray> mvo: could you look at bug 966474?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 966474 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "should not propose to remove appmenu when migrating from Lucid to precise" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/966474
<BenC> Anyone familiar enough with debian-installer to know how to add a source for udeb's in addition to the normal sources.list (for custom kernel udeb's)
<BenC> I've already built with a custom kernel, but it doesn't know to look for the udeb's at my custom apt archive
<cjwatson> build/sources.list.udeb.local is the easy way
<cjwatson> if you start a build and then copy build/sources.list.udeb to that, you can customise from there
<cjwatson> (or 'make -C build sources.list.udeb')
<BenC> cjwatson: ah, thanks
<BenC> cjwatson: so that will become part of the installer itself?
<cjwatson> hm?
<BenC> cjwatson: I want the resulting installer to know to use add my entry to sources.list for when it tries to install the kernel udeb during the install
<cjwatson> that's handled separately I'm afraid
<BenC> s/udeb/deb/
<cjwatson> you can preseed it in apt-setup/local0/repository et al (see the installation guide, there's a little more and I forget the precise details)
<cjwatson> build/sources.list.udeb* just controls the installer build system itself
<BenC> Ah, ok, I'll check that then
<BenC> Thanks
<robbiew> cjohnston: ping
<cjohnston> robbiew: sir?
<robbiew> cjohnston: quick question, if summit grabs a blueprint and schedules it
<robbiew> then we rename the blueprint
<cjohnston> ::headdesk::
<robbiew> does the older entry go away?
<robbiew> lol
<robbiew> http://summit.ubuntu.com/uds-q/meeting/20388/servercloud-q-swift-replacement/
<robbiew> can you delete this?>
<cjohnston> does that answer yourquestion?
<cjohnston> yup
<robbiew> thx
<cjohnston> np
 * robbiew keeps that in mind for the future
<cjohnston> it is supposed to
<robbiew> yeah...I thought it used to
<cjohnston> but hey.. we got summit stable, but we can't do everything all at one
<cjohnston> once
<cjohnston> lol
<robbiew> no worries
<cjohnston> its on our radar.. I tried getting Daviey to do it..heh
<jeinor> probably a stupid question, but: can I get hold of the probably-will-soon-be release images for precise today? or will they be released exactly on the date?
<astraljava> jeinor: Release Candidates are being tested right now, of course you can get a hold of them.
<astraljava> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com will help you there.
<jeinor> will the RC differ in any way to the final release (if we pretend there will be no critical issues blocking the rc to be the release)?
<jeinor> what I am asking is: will I have to make another upgrade/reinstall when the final version is released?
<ScottK> jeinor: The images we have now may be the final images.  We don't know.  Even if we have to redo them though, you won't have to reinstall.  It'd just be a few package updates, the same as you get from time to time post release.
<jeinor> ScottK, good news! I'm way to impatient to wait until thursday :)
<jeinor> Is it the images called beta2? Can't find any named rc
<ScottK> They aren't named RC.
<ScottK> Look on cdimage.ubuntu.com
<sladen> jeinor: eg. http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
<jeinor> thanks
<cyphermox> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Precise: Final Freeze | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> oneiric | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<azert> hello there
<azert> any ubuntu version for armel ?
<ScottK> lamont: Looking at http://news.gmane.org/gmane.mail.postfix.user/cutoff=229255 I'm thinking we'll want a microversion update of postfix sooner rather than later.
<lamont> some days, I hate ssl
<dupondje> superm1: thanks for the rfkill patch :)
<azert> anyone there ?
<superm1> dupondje: sure :)
<lamont> buehler
<dupondje> Seems to work on a XPS L502X also
<ScottK> lamont: Are there days you don't?
<ScottK> The only days I don't are the ones where it's been abstracted away from me having to care about it.
<lamont> ScottK: days when I'm sending email, and not working on postfix
<ScottK> Right.  Email is hard.
<lamont> lets go shopping
<ScottK> Well, on spfbis (IETF working group ML) today one of the RFC 821/822 co-authors was having trouble sending mail.
<lamont> well, I have this opinion about spf...
<ScottK> I know.
<ScottK> The point wasn't where, but who.
<lamont> azert: the first ubuntu armel version I had was 9.04... I wouldn't recommend going that far back though... the current 11.10 bits are good, 12.04 are even better, albeit not quite out yet
<lamont> ScottK: and the sympathy nonexistant. :D
<lamont> oh.  this is an 821/822 author, not an spf author?
<azert> where i can down load it ? lamont
<ScottK> Yes.
<lamont> azert: I'd prolly start at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM
<lamont> azert: but it's more of a #ubuntu question than a #ubuntu-devel question
#ubuntu-devel 2012-04-25
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> bdmurray: thanks, will do
<pitti> Daviey: want me to remove nova from oneiric-proposed? it's superseded by a security update, right?
<pitti> Riddell: rejecting lightdm-kde SRU upload; changelog says "Fixes LP: #", but no actual bug number
<pitti> apw, ogasawara: why are we suddenly using "normal" SRU for the kernel again? (kernel in https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/precise/+queue?queue_state=1)
<dholbach> good morning
<smb> pitti, I heard Leann say something about day0 upload yesterday...
<smb> Anyway... errm... I think I see something very strange here... Doing an install of the desktop 64bit image in a Dell 1521 I got. Selecting install on the choice of try or install. Everything seems to go ok during install, but when I login there appears to be no launcher (left side) and terminal windows only half a line high (and not rezizeable)... checksumming the usb stick iso was ok, but I should re-download the image to be sure. This is 3d o
<smb> nly, 2d seems to work ok
<pitti> smb: ok, so we're not using the usual kernel SRU process for that one; ok, will process in a bit
<smb> pitti, That is what I am guessing. You could wait for apw for confirmation to be sure
<smb> RAOF, In case you are still awake... The D1521 uses some ati (X1200 not the most current) and the radeon driver. In case there is something known about that...
<apw> pitti, yep that should be the day-0 kernel, i heard that would be going in via -proposed
<pitti> apw: right, but all the other kernel updates are also going via -proposed, but are usually built in the PPA and have a tracking bug
<pitti> apw: so we need to improvise a bit here and declare an arbitrary bug from the update as "tracking bug" where QA does the regression testing, etc.
<apw> pitti, ahh i see your point
<pitti> so this kernel would actually build in proposed instead of in teh PPA as usual
<pitti> I don't mind that, I'm more worried about the tracking bug and QA procedure
<apw> pitti, yeah, if we need to repurpose one of the bugs, i'd steal leanns own config change one ...
<pitti> ev: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/apport-duplicates/apport_duplicates.db
<pitti> ev: might be more convenient than having to parse the text files :)
<ev> pitti: cheers, I'll have a play with that
<pitti> ev: it's what apport-retrace uses as -d argument
<pitti> i. e. what python-apport crashdb.py API uses
<smb> Oh firetruck without the iretr... its the external monitor in mirror mode...
<pitti> stats in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2012-April/000954.html
<pitti> for Q I propose that we abolish Fridays
<pitti> and replace it with a second Tuesday
<pitti> apw: ok, accepted linux, will accept the rest once linux built and is through binNEW -- old style
<apw> pitti, i thought the point of using -proposed in this context was that we could rely on the depwaits but ... i'll defer to you
<pitti> apw: if lbm's build deps are set up accordingly, we can, yes
<apw> pitti, i'll investigate, but assume not :/
<pitti> ah, seems it is
<apw> ahh good
<pitti> just chhecked the diff
<pitti> apw: lbm refers to bug 978324, can you please make that public?
<ubottu> Error: Launchpad bug 978324 could not be found
<pitti> apw: linux-meta doesn't bump build deps, so keeping that in the queue until linux and lbm are in
<apw> pitti, ack
<pitti> apw: I assume it's private, but could also be a typo of course
<smb> cjwatson, Was apt_http_proxy= the magic to put on the grub command line of a desktop ? I sadly seem to forget over and over again by using mostly the alternate cd... :/
<cjwatson> smb: No.  What are you trying to do?
<smb> cjwatson, Convince the desktop install to use a apt proxy (which I believe has no dialog box anymore)
<smb> Or I missed that miserably
<pitti> changing the network proxy in control-center and clicking "apply system-wide" ought do do that; it doesn't any more?
<pitti> ubuntu-system-service is supposed to set both the "general" proxy as well as the apt configuration
<pitti> I haven't tested that in a while, though
<cjwatson> smb: desktop => not my department
<cjwatson> oh, sorry, installer
<smb> Well for the install ... meaning casper I do :)
 * cjwatson learns to read
<cjwatson> (also, probably not grub)
<smb> I know that feeling :)
<cjwatson> smb: mirror/http/proxy=
<smb> cjwatson, Oh ok... yeah, for some reason I say grub when it is isolinux. Right that looks familiar
<smb> thanks
 * smb tries to learn using the right terms...
<tjaalton> should dh_installman use the -n option for zcat in order to allow manpages in a multiarch-enabled package, or should they always be shipped in a foreign -data package?
<cjwatson> dh_installman doesn't do compression; that's dh_compress' job.
<tjaalton> hmm ok
<cjwatson> And dh_compress uses -n.
<cjwatson> zcat decompresses, not compresses :-)
<tjaalton> of course, duh
<tjaalton> should dh_compress do the same in debian too?
<cjwatson> Yes
<tjaalton> ok maybe it's the manpage build going wrong then..
<tjaalton> need to double-check
<cjwatson> Perhaps your upstream source is compressing stuff
<cjwatson> Not entirely uncommon
<tjaalton> according to the build log it shouldn't
<tjaalton> it installs the manpages as uncompressed, but xsltproc creates a timestamp which obviously breaks it..
<cjwatson> right, would do
<tjaalton> ok so debian doesn't have "multiarch metadata" for docbook, maybe that's the issue (the bug against sssd was filed on debian)
<tjaalton> umm, no
<cjwatson> either strip the timestamp or move to a foreign package, preferably the former
<tjaalton> yeah
<tjaalton> how frozen are we? :) (unseeded package)
<ogra_> see the mailing list :)
<tjaalton> ah there it is :)
<tjaalton> ok I'll target -proposed, there are a couple of other changes too..
<kenvandine> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Precise: Final Freeze | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> oneiric | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: kenvandine
 * dholbach hugs kenvandine
<kenvandine> :)
<pitti> kenvandine: great to have a fully open archive to play with, isn't it?
<pitti> err.. wait
<kenvandine> hehe
<pitti> (I know, I know -- branch review, SRU, patch forwarding; SCNR)
<kenvandine> there is always stuff to do :)
<kenvandine> just doesn't feel as productive without actually uploading
<pitti> well, cleaning the queue from stuff that we wouldn't upload anyway feels just as good
<pitti> e. g. I saw a lot of manpage or pacakge description typo fixes there
<kenvandine> i do have a universe upload i am sponsoring
<pitti> which usually belong forwarded to Debian and not uploaded anyway
<mterry> What is Ubuntu's policy about archival material, like old specs or blueprints in the wiki?  Do we like to keep that stuff around, or delete it, or what?
<kenvandine> mterry, ask jcastro :)
<mterry> We don't care about archival material in debian/changelog
<kenvandine> he would say delete, delete, delete
<mterry> kenvandine, I know his answer  :)
<jcastro> specs and stuff you should keep
<mterry> kenvandine, but this is history, for future archivists!
<jcastro> in case we need to refer to them again
<pitti> I'm all for keeping bluepritns and related wiki pages
<kenvandine> the annoyance i have is i keep finding "specs" on the wiki that never actually got done
<mterry> jcastro, you surprise me sir.  I imagine you every spring throwing out all your belongings and buying new ones.  :)
<hyperair> argh. lightdm is really horrible to debug. why won't it log me in?!
<pitti> if they get in the way, maybe they might be retroactively moved to the namespace we use today, like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs/Precise/
<jcastro> mterry: it's for the "Ok who was the idiot that thought this feature was a good idea? Oh, it was me, 4 years ago, and here are my notes. Ok, maybe it is a good idea."
<mterry> pitti, yar instead of the once-common just-have-them-be-toplevel-no-one-will-mind?  :)
<mterry> OK!  Will keep.  And maybe move.  I wish the wiki had better support for redirects after moving something
<cjwatson> I often refer either myself or other people to old specs
<cjwatson> In fact I dug up a five-year-old (implemented) one as a reference for somebody else just yesterday
<hyperair> great, so if your wallpaper is in your $HOME, and your $HOME is not readable by lightdm, unity-greeter hangs while trying to log you in
<maco> hahaha
<maco> i think i only hang out in this channel these days to hear things like that
<hyperair> and dear lightdm was so vague in its error messages that it took me over an hour of trial and error to figure this out
 * hyperair sighs
<hyperair> and just my luck, it had been 7 days since i last logged in.
<hyperair> the change happened 7 days ago
<hyperair> whee
<seb128> hyperair, I doubt that's true
<seb128> something is broken on your system
<hyperair> seb128: what exactly?
<seb128> hyperair, dunno, seems like the stat call is hanging rather than return a permission error?
<hyperair> the other day apt-get crapped up and removed gnome-session among a whole bunch of other packages
<seb128> do you use nfs or something?
<hyperair> nope
<seb128> dunno then
<hyperair> are you sure it's stat?
<seb128> no
<hyperair> it looks like gdk_pixbuf_load_from_file()
<seb128> but I'm sure it doesn't hang with my ecryptfs user
<hyperair> and that ends with an error
<hyperair> because after that it logs that there's an error loading the background
<seb128> and it for sure fails to access the dir
<seb128> right
<hyperair> problem is *after* that, it refuses to log in
<seb128> that shouldn't "hang" anything though
<hyperair> yeah, it shouldn't
<seb128> I've played with putting invalid background files to reproduce a bug on unity-greeter recently
<hyperair> maybe there's a race condition or something..
<seb128> the greeter just loads the default background when the one it wants is not accessible
<hyperair> yeah it does
<hyperair> it just refuses to log in
<seb128> wfm
<hyperair> urgh
<hyperair> where should i begin debugging this?
<seb128> we would have heard about it loudly if that was happening to everybody having non world readable user dirs
<seb128> can you pastebin your /var/log/lightdm/lightdm.log?
<seb128> it should have the auth, session start, etc steps
<seb128> to see where it "stops"
<hyperair> hang on, lemme reproduce this again
<hyperair> i'll have to log out
<seb128> also when you say "refuses to log in", does it bail out on an error?
<hyperair> and chmod -r
<hyperair> no it doesn't
<seb128> or just hang on an empty background?
<seb128> or...?
<hyperair> it just says "Logging in..."
<hyperair> and stops there
<hyperair> the password field vanishes
<seb128> so you sudo chmod -r an user dir
<hyperair> replaced by the text "Logging in..."
<seb128> and try to log into that user?
<seb128> let me try on a test user
<hyperair> you have to change your wallpaper
<hyperair> to be inside $HOME
<hyperair> and then chmod o-r $HOME
<hyperair> i just tried with a wallpaper in /tmp, and that worked out fine
<maco> so user-only-readable home dir and custom wallpaper
<seb128> hyperair, maco: wfm, I selected an image from ~/Images in the g-c-c panel, logged out, did a "sudo chmod o-r testuserdir"
<seb128> logged in
<seb128> works fine
<hyperair> hmmm
<maco> hyperair: do you have 700 or 770?
<maco> i wonder if its running as lighdm user and & you group
<hyperair> weirdly enough, i can log in now.
<hyperair> maco: 750
<maco> were you running at 700 before, when logging in was failing?
<hyperair> seb128: aha. it doesn't work to just log out and log back in. you need to stop lightdm, and start it again.
<hyperair> maco: no, the one that works is 755. the one that doesn't is 750
<maco> ok
<hyperair> this might be a race condition or something
<hyperair> it seems completely random
<hyperair> okay, not completely. it's biased more towards not working
<seb128> I got it once here after doing a chmod 700 on the user dir
<seb128> I can move between users on the login screen now but I can't type passwords
<seb128> seems like an issue for mterry ;-)
 * mterry reads
<seb128> mterry, bug #987614
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 987614 in lightdm (Ubuntu) "Stuck at login screen with status "Logging in..."" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/987614
<seb128> mterry, seems like unity-greeter sometimes stay stucked on "Logging in..." after validating your password for user dirs with not world readable permissions when a custom wallpaper is set
<seb128> mterry, i.e I got it there by setting a background from ~/Picture, doing a chmod 700 on the user dir and try to log in
<mterry> seems bad
<seb128> mterry, unity greeter wrote "logging in..." but never closed the greeter, I can move between users on the greeter screen now but not type anythin
<mterry> will reproduce here
<seb128> mterry, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/945849/ is the bottom of the x-2-greeter.log
<seb128> ignore the "fail to write" warning, that seems to happen for every login looking at that log
<seb128> mterry, thanks
<hyperair> seb128: on my system, it seems to fail on every cold-start of lightdm.
<hyperair> i.e. stop lightdm, start lightdm
<hyperair> if, when it hangs, i do killall -u lightdm, the next attempt succeeds.
<seb128> I didn't restart lightdm here, I didn't want to close my session
<hyperair> however, if i just kill unity-greeter, the next attempt continues to fail
<hyperair> right
<mterry> weird
<hyperair> lemme try checking the lightdm before/after..
<hyperair> mterry: okay, this seems to be related to pulseaudio.
<seb128> wth?
<hyperair> stop lightdm; ps -u lightdm shows some lightdm-owned pulseaudio processes running
<hyperair> i.e. pulseaudio and the gconf-helper
<hyperair> if i kill those and start lightdm, it logs in
<mterry> hmm
<hyperair> if i don't kill those before starting lightdm, it refuses to log in.
<hyperair> i'm going to try that /tmp/ wallpaper thing again to see if it's really the wallpaper causing the issue.
<hyperair> i think earlier when i did the /tmp/ wallpaper thing, i didn't restart lightdm
<hyperair> okay, this is really weird.
<hyperair> if the wallpaper is accessible, then even if the zombie pulseaudio/gconf-helper processes hang around, it logs in successfully.
 * mterry reboots
 * mterry looks for reproduction steps again; couldn't reproduce
<hyperair> mterry: set custom wallpaper in $HOME, chmod o-r $HOME; log out; sudo stop lightdm; sudo start lightdm; try to log in.
<seb128> mterry, chmod o-r was not enough for me (or I got lucky on first try), I did chmod 700
<seb128> I didn't need to restart lightdm either
<mterry> hyperair, seb128: I tried those steps (chmod 700), but without stopping lightdm and haven't gotten it yet
<seb128> mterry, for me it was log into "testuser", copy an image to ~/Images, select if from the appareance capplet, log out, sudo chmod 700 testuser (the user dir), go up down on the unity-greeter, try to log in
<mterry> seb128, that sounds like me
<seb128> it worked the first time
<seb128> I hit the bug on second try
<mterry> I've tried a few times.  Let me double confirm I have the setup right
<seb128> try to log out and in again?
<mterry> yar I did that.  will do a few more
<mterry> nope.  ecryptfs isn't involved, eh?
<seb128> my main user is using it, the test user isn't
<mterry> same here
 * hyperair uses dm-crypt, but that shouldn't bother lightdm imo
<hyperair> also, in all cases where this bug was triggered, gnome-session was not executed at all.
<seb128> seems like something got wrong in the auth between the greeter and lightdm
<hyperair> i tried moving it aside and replacing it with a script that logged its output to /tmp thinking that might be the issue, but there was no output
<seb128> the actual session start job never kicked in
<seb128> I would assume lightdm is a in a weird state since it does hang on any auth until restart
<seb128> like not even a guest session would start now
 * mterry will try stopping and starting lightdm.  will be back online in a bit
<seb128> it does the same "login in..." and not login in behaviour
<seb128> mterry, same here
<mterry> hyperair: no luck still.  is seb128 rebooting?
<seb128> mterry, no luck reproducing it here now :-(
<mterry> seb128, hah, I fixed it
<seb128> mterry, oh? what was it?
<mterry> New Ubuntu Instafix (tm)
<mterry> seb128, sorry, no joking
<seb128> tssss
<seb128> mterry, yeah, just got it :p
<mterry> seb128, shouldn't get your hopes up  :)
<seb128> it took me a few seconds; I should wait before typing :p
<seb128> mterry, I've bugs for you in any case :p
<mterry> seb128, couldn't reproduce myself after rebooting or restarting lightdm
<mterry> seb128, I was just starting to actually look at those gnome-settings-daemon crashes
<seb128> mterry, good, I will not keep you away from that ;-)
<seb128> mterry, I will open the small leaks valgrind found on unity-greeter in launchpad
<mterry> seb128, oh nice
<seb128> mterry, do you prefer one "you have leaks in your code" bug, or one bugs by leak?
<mterry> seb128, one
<seb128> mterry, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity-greeter/+bug/988409
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 988409 in unity-greeter (Ubuntu) "small leaks in unity-greeter" [Undecided,New]
<mterry> seb128, thanks!  they might end up being vala bugs, but great to have a list
<seb128> mterry, they could indeed, and they are mostly small ones, and the greeter usually doesn't run for days
<hyperair> how do you extract real leaks from the horrible mess that valgrind produces with glib-using applications
<hyperair> ?
<SpamapS> hyperair: I have nothing constructive to respond with, but that provides me yet another reason to avoid glib. :)
<seb128> SpamapS, stop the trolling thanks
<seb128> glib doesn't leak nor spam valgrind
<hyperair> doesn't it?
<hyperair> i've had gtk+ hello world applications showing a crapton of things
 * SpamapS is only slightly kidding.. I use glib every day when I open up Terminator. :)
<seb128> I've just been running unity greeter under valgrind for a several time, there is no noise from glib
<hyperair> hmm weird
<seb128> hyperair, dunno, pastebin? what tends to spam valgrind here is fontconfig and libpng
<hyperair> seb128: oh yeah, that's right. it used to contain a lot of weird things from glib as well, but i guess that's all fixed now
<hyperair> hmm maybe i can actually run indicator-mesages-service in valgrind now
<seb128> hyperair, you can also do a valgrind suppr file to filter out noise
<slangasek> cking: hey, can I ask your advice for bug #952556?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 952556 in hdparm (Ubuntu) "[Precise] [Hardware-killer] HD restarts every few seconds" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/952556
<hyperair> seb128: yeah, but the last time i tried using valgrind's memcheck, i couldn't find a suppr that filtered out the noise sufficiently (and there a *lot* of noise)
<seb128> mterry, I've a "lightdm --session-child 178 195" process stucked in a read, that's weird (got the bug again)
<seb128> mterry, gdb to it is: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/946021/
<seb128> does that makes any sense to you?
 * mterry looks
<seb128> strace on the process does
<seb128> Process 10603 attached - interrupt to quit
<seb128> read(178,
<seb128> sitting there
<mterry> seb128, sure, that's lightdm waiting for greeter data
<seb128> mterry, ok, so it seems unity-greeter didn't send enough or stopped sending
<mterry> seb128, maybe greeter sent it a malformed message (said it would send 80 bytes but only sent 20)
<mterry> seb128, there is code in there to prevent that though...
<seb128> mterry, can you point me to unity-greeter code for the write? maybe guide me to put a printf debug info somewhere
<mterry> seb128, that's in lightdm trunk, in liblightdm-gobject/greeter.c I believe
<mterry> seb128, write_message() or any of the write_() methods
<seb128> mterry, when you say in trunk you mean trunk only not precise?
<mterry> seb128, sorry no, just that it's in lightdm not u-g
<seb128> ok
<seb128> thanks
<seb128> ok
<seb128> write_message() has
<seb128>         g_warning ("Refusing to write malformed packet to daemon: declared size is %u, but actual size is %zu",
<mterry> yeah, that's the code to prevent it...
<seb128> mterry, there is a gdebug in there, do you know what I need to get the output from it?
<mterry> Oh right, glib changed to not print those by default....
<seb128> oh
<seb128> G_MESSAGE_DEBUG=all
<mterry> yup
<seb128> ok, bbiab
<mterry> What's the easiest way to run unity-greeter under that?  /etc/environment?
<seb128> mterry, hum, is setting it for lightdm enough?
<mterry> seb128, you want it for unity-greeter, not lightdm
<seb128> mterry, what I figured, I was going to do the same thing I did for valgrind
<mterry> seb128, a wrapper script?
<seb128> i.e mv unity-greeter unity-greeter.real and made a wrapper script
<seb128> yes
<seb128> I don't know of a better way
<cking> slangasek, sorry, I was -afk for a while there
 * mterry misses g_debug by default
<cking> slangasek, so should we opt for hdparm -B 128 for the default rather than 127 just to be safe?
<slangasek> well, that's my question
<slangasek> it seems that something is waking up people's disks incessantly
<slangasek> and if we can't fix that, we might as well not spin down in the first place
<slangasek> unless we think that the spinning up&down isn't actually a hardware problem here?
<cking> sure, 128 is good, but for some stupid ultra green drives only 255 seems to work
<slangasek> cking: well I don't want to go down the path of trying to whitelist individual drive models :P
<slangasek> do you think there's anything else we could do in SRU to improve the spin up/down problem?  Is this a filesystem-layer issue?
<cking> slangasek, we could delay write back but that means we have a greater risk of losing data when we lose power.
<slangasek> but isn't that expected, and part of why ordered is the default?
<cking> but the spin ups could be reads, which we can't avoid either. I'm included to disable spin down altogether.
<slangasek> well, I would expect my desktop to fit in my disk cache
<slangasek> maybe that's naive :)
<cking> maybe 10 years ago
<slangasek> no, my disk cache 10 years ago was 10 years smaller ;)
<slangasek> only 306 running processes on my system, kernel threads inclusive... how big can it be? :P
<cking> heh :-)
<slangasek> so I'm ok with pushing this back to 128 if it'll make a difference
<cking> that sounds very sane to me
<slangasek> but I think something's still wrong in the rest of our stack if people are seeing 10s wakeups in normal use
<slangasek> and I would like to figure out what that is, so we can squeeze more power savings out
<cking> we need to get pitti's script to monitor what's going on in these use cases, perhaps its some badly behaving application which we haven't yet identified
<slangasek> "pitti's script"> fatrace?
<cking> yep
<cking> I think, I can't recall the name off the top of my head
<slangasek> that's the one that he blogged and packaged :)
<cking> http://www.piware.de/2012/02/power-usage-report-find-power-drain-causes/
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> I do think that data loss due to poweroff is the wrong priority
<slangasek> if we're on battery, it's more important to save power so we *don't* run out of juice
<cking> well, as we move to SSDs, this is going to be less of an issue anyhow
<slangasek> and if our filesystem isn't already proofed by default against corruption on powerloss, it darn well should be :)
<slangasek> is the gap in price per byte closing between SSDs and rotationals?
<cking> slowly
<slangasek> well, until it does, it's an issue :)
 * cking nods
<slangasek> ok, so I'll SRU hdparm to switch back to 128
<slangasek> do you think it would be worth doing some kind of power clinic at UDS?
<cking> ... and maybe we should ask the users who are seeing frequent spin-ups to try pitti's script
<cking> yes, a power clinic at UDS is a good idea
<ogra_> we should all move to eMMCs
<cking> are we going to revisit power consumption for Q?
 * ogra_ never has probs on his arm netbook 
<cking> ogra_, nah, just move it all to the cloud, who needs local storage ;-)
<ScottK> kenvandine: You're about a day too late for uploads to Universe in the release pocket.
<ogra_> cking, ++
<ogra_> even better
<ScottK> If it's SRUable it should go to -proposed.
<slangasek> cking: do you think anything's changed that we should revisit?  or is it now just a matter of constant vigilance? :)
<cking> slangasek, constant vigilance for sure and also I'd like to get a broader check for mis-behaving applications
<SpamapS> seems like we should have some kind of automated metering in place just like boot speed
<slangasek> I really think we need a process manager of some kind inside firefox
<slangasek> that or just switch to chromium
<slangasek> the fact that runaway javascript can only be killed by drilling through firefox menus, or by waiting for firefox itself to decide it's run away, is !good
<cking> well, I'd like to seek and destroy all bad poll() and select() calls and kill off any stupid logging
<slangasek> (especially when FF is so busy that it won't feed the menus to unity ;)
<cking> SpamapS, we've got the kit to do the monitoring, we just need to automate it, the groundwork as been done.
<cking> slangasek, we need something like the OOM killer for badly behaving CPU sucking apps ;-)
<slangasek> cking: isn't that called "nice"? :)
<cking> perhaps auto-nice'ing bad apps
<slangasek> (hard killing a program because it's used too much CPU... yes, you can do that with ulimits, but there's a reason people don't ;)
<cking> I think the main problem is that there are thousands of applications, and if just one or two misbehave we see power suckage issues, so auto identifying them is one issue, fixing another issue, and making sure they stay fixed is another issue :-/
 * slangasek nods
<cking> whac-a-mole
<kenvandine> ScottK, oh, the release schedule says the 26th
<kenvandine> ScottK, whoops... i forgot the (Tue) in there is the archive freeze :)
<kenvandine> sorry
<ScottK> No problem.
<seb128> barry, hey
<kenvandine> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Precise: Final Freeze | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> oneiric | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<barry> seb128: hiya
<seb128> barry, hey
<seb128> barry, those "... has bogus #! line" python bugs, could you add a rational out of "it's wrong"? like actual explanation of why it's wrong and if it's wrong in Ubuntu only, or in Debian as well, or in upstream tarballs...?
<barry> seb128: sure.  i'd rather not have to do it to every bug i filed though ;)  is there one in particular you'd like me to comment on?
<seb128> barry, no, but for opening such bugs I think it would be could to have some arguments, I'm not likely to act on them on upstream them if I don't understand why the current way is wrong
<seb128> barry, and I guess if upstream doesn't understand they are not likely to "fix" it either
<kenvandine> upstream gwibber has fixed it already :)
<seb128> barry, i.e your call but I'm going to ignore those on my package until a convincing explanation of "why" comes with those ;-)
<micahg> barry: maybe blog about it and link to the blog post in the bug?
<barry> micahg: that's what i was thinking
<seb128> kenvandine, did you wonder why it was wrong or just changed it to close a bug ? :p
<slangasek> seb128: the proper interpreter is defined by Debian python policy, at least
<tumbleweed> it's not a MUST in the debian python policy
<kenvandine> i assume because you can't predict which interpreter it would be
<seb128> slangasek, that would be useful info in the bug, still it doesn't tell me if I should upstream those
<tumbleweed> there are times when #!/usr/bin/env python is preferable
<slangasek> is that the issue barry reported bugs on?  Missing bug numbers for context here :)
<seb128> slangasek, of if that's a distro patch to carry
<seb128> slangasek, bug #988391
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 988391 in gtk+2.0 (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/gtk-builder-convert has bogus #! line" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/988391
<seb128> got a few of those
<barry> tumbleweed: it probably should be a must actually.  my opinion is that it's fine for development of the package, but installed, i can't think of any reason to use /usr/bin/env
 * kenvandine also trusts barry
<kenvandine> and it was inconsistent with gwibber-service which didn't use env
<seb128> kenvandine, well, still not very useful to convince an upstream who would like a rational on why that's wrong and why they need to change
<tumbleweed> barry: how about twistd in a virtualenv with site-packages enabled?
<barry> tumbleweed: i believe virtualenvs rewrite their #! lines
<kenvandine> seb128, indeed
<tumbleweed> barry: no, a virtualenv that I haven't installed twisted into
<seb128> kenvandine, I'm fine trusting people, but I think such cross archive bug filling ought to come with some material if you want buy in
<seb128> like you don't go around and say "you do it wrong"
<barry> tumbleweed: hmm.
<seb128> you explain why it's wrong and what's the proper way
<seb128> barry, well anyway I'm going to ignore those on stuff I maintain until somebody comes with details on who is concerned (ubuntu? ubuntu and debian? upstream?) and why the other way is better
<seb128> barry, just for info ;-)
<barry> seb128: fair enough.  i know this has been discussed to death in other forum, so i'll see what i can dig up.  ftr, the problem is that people can and do have other pythons on their $PATHs for all sorts of legitimate reasons.  you don't want to break their system when they do that
<tumbleweed> barry: granted, that's a fairly unusual case, and I just changed nose to use /usr/bin/python (which was one of my other ocunter examples in http://lists.debian.org/debian-python/2011/03/msg00018.html
<seb128> barry, well you probably understand why your suggested way is better but I've no chance to convince any of my upstream if you don't share that knowledge ;-)
<barry> seb128: fair enough :)
<barry> tumbleweed: ah, thanks for helping me find that thread again :)
<tumbleweed> np :)
<barry> tumbleweed: i see we never did get resolution on whether dh_python? should rewrite those lines by default
<stgraber> barry: btw, for pastebinit we actually switched to /usr/bin/env python after someone reported a bug saying /usr/bin/python was wrong ;) so I'm not going to revert until I have something I can point to and that won't lead to half the other distro maintainers shouting at me
<tumbleweed> barry: jwilk was strongly against it in that thread, but then he's also a dh_python2 hater...
<barry> stgraber: wow, really?  did they give a rationale for why they thought it was wrong?
<stgraber> barry: can't remember, let me try to get the bug report
<tumbleweed> there are of course also good reasons to allow /usr/bin/pythonX.Y
<barry> tumbleweed: for sure
<stgraber> barry: only thing I could find in my mails is "Using '/usr/bin/python' requires patching on systems where python is installed in a different location", that was apparently from an *BSD guy
<barry> seb128: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+2.0/+bug/988391/comments/1
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 988391 in gtk+2.0 (Ubuntu) "/usr/bin/gtk-builder-convert has bogus #! line" [Undecided,New]
<seb128> barry, thanks, I will avoid complaining about the url not opening in firefox because being untrusted ;-)
<barry> stgraber: note that i think it's fine if upstream dev branches use /usr/bin/env.  the problem is that the installed version should not use it.  *personally* i supported piotr's suggestion
<seb128> barry, if you copy in other bugs you might want to use http rather than https for the reference
<barry> seb128: ouch :)
<barry> seb128: will do
<seb128> thanks
<stgraber> barry: ok, I'll leave a reply to your bug saying that. pastebinit is usually a sync from Debian so I won't add that as a distro delta in Ubuntu
<seb128> barry, that url still let me unsure if "however, this should only apply to *developer* packages, not operating system packages." mean I should go upstream tell them to "fix" it
<seb128> or if that should be distro patches to carry on
<seb128> or if they should do it differently in their vcs in tarball, and if that's the case if there is a best practice for that
<barry> seb128: i think it should be a distro delta
<seb128> :-(
<seb128> barry, hate distro deltas ;-)
<barry> seb128: well, let me say instead that i think the helpers for debian should do it
<seb128> right, I would buy into that
<seb128> I'm unsure I want to inflict myself the distro delta work
<barry> maybe i'll revive the thread on debian-python and see if we can get somewhere
<seb128> it doesn't seem worth the issue it solves
<barry> seb128: it's probably not worth a distro delta unless the tool is really critical to ubuntu/debian operation, or there could be security concerns.
<seb128> barry, ok, I'm going to ignore it for the gtk developer convert scripts you opened a bug about then ;-)
<barry> seb128: do you know if they use dh_python2 or py-central/py-support?
<seb128> barry, none of those I think, those are .py scripts shipped in /usr/bin
<seb128> barry, they just list the .py in the .install
<barry> seb128: so fixing the helpers wouldn't help ;)
<seb128> no
<seb128> barry, I would buy into using packaging helpers easily if they were solving issues ;-)
<barry> seb128: they mostly do, but let's see if i can convince piotr to make the change this time
<seb128> barry, thanks
<barry> seb128: thanks to you to
<barry> too
<barry> tumbleweed, seb128: actually d-p policy is stronger in its wording now ($1.4.2).  i like what it says.  also, i think dh_python2 *does* have support for this.  at least, it now has an --ignore-shebangs switch which i think disables the rewrite
<barry> tumbleweed: so maybe nothing really needs to be done except point people to d-p policy, and tell them to use the helpers ;)
<tumbleweed> barry: IIRC --ignore-shebangs is for dependency generation
<barry> tumbleweed: ah
<barry> you might be right about that
<ScottK> stgraber or cyphermox: I would appreciate it if one of you could have a look at Bug #988513.  The new, improved DNS stuff confuses me enough that I'm not sure I understand exactly what to do here and how to test it.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 988513 in unbound (Ubuntu) "unbound defaults break DNS resolution when upstream DNS lacks DNSSEC support" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/988513
<stgraber> ScottK: bug says it's server, so no dnsmasq involved at least. resolvconf only manages /etc/resolv.conf, it doesn't actually do anything more than that. Not sure if unbound itself behaves differently when resolvconf is used though
<stgraber> ScottK: I'm using unbound on my network running on 12.04 and doing DNSSEC just fine, though I believe I disabled resolvconf in these containers (as /etc/resolv.conf is managed by a configuration manager)
<ScottK> Could you check.
<ScottK> It'd be unfortunate to have a default as broken as the bug report suggests.
<stgraber> ScottK: if I decoded the bug report properly, I think it sortof makes sense actually.
<stgraber> from the log, it'd seem that user didn't setup the root anchor, unbound when used with resolvconf takes its upstream DNS servers from resolvconf, but as these can't be trusted (as they can come from anywhere, including some public wireless network), it doesn't trust them and so won't forward the dnssec validation result from these
<stgraber> ScottK: hmm, no, misread the bug report ... /me is digging the resolvconf hook provided by unbound
<stgraber> ScottK: right, so I can indeed see how the current default can be annoying (looking at /etc/resolvconf/update.d/unbound) and setting RESOLVCONF_FORWARDERS=false in /etc/default/unbound (or changing /etc/resolvconf/update.d/unbound so that misisng RESOLVCONF_FORWARDERS == false instead of == true) would restore pre-precise behavior
<stgraber> ScottK: having unbound's upstream DNS servers updated by resolvconf is probably fine for most people, but anyone enforcing dnssec might get into the issue described in the bug
<ScottK> OK.  Since you actually understand the issue, would you be up for an SRU?
<stgraber> ScottK: I'd prefer for it to be discussed/fixed in Debian first as we don't currently carry any delta on the unbound package
#ubuntu-devel 2012-04-26
<slangasek> pitti: I'm told that bug #639616 is also getting false client-side dupes now from apport
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 639616 in aptdaemon (Ubuntu) "aptd crashed with AttributeError in _inline_callbacks()" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/639616
<slangasek> which is somewhat supported by the recent comment traffic
<tohuw> What is the mechanism a program uses to notify the unity bar to highlight its icon?
<RAOF> tohuw: The standard ICCCM needs-attention hint.
<tohuw> I want to report a wishlist for firefox, and was trying to be helpfully specific
<tohuw> RAOF: So, if I wanted to say that I'd like to see firefox highlight its icon on the unity bar when a new tab opens while it is in the background, I'd say something to the effect of "Have Firefox Evoke the needs-attention Hint When Tabs are Opened while Minimized"?
<tohuw> (yes, I realize I could just say "make it turn orange", but I like to learn a little something each time I file a wishlist)
<RAOF> That'd be abount right, yes.  Except that âminimisedâ is a technical term that's not the same as âin the backgroundâ :)
<tohuw> Yes, I was just thinking about that. "While in the Background" is better, or is there a specific term preferred for that state?
<tohuw> incidentally, RAOF, did you really surround those words with three question marks, or is my client botching a smart quotes ASCII character?
<RAOF> Your client is failing at unicode, it would seem.
<RAOF> tohuw: "When not focused" would be the technical term, but it actually doesn't matter; the needs-attention hint is only acted on when the window that needs attention *doesn't* have focus, so it's safe to just set it.
<tohuw> Hmm, better go file with Smuxi then... failing at unicode in an irc client! -.-
<RAOF> tohuw: The more likely scenario is that you don't have a proper UTF-8 locale set where your backend is.
<tohuw> RAOF: oh, that's cool. So Firefox could be set so that it evokes the hint anytime a new tab is opened, and that would only highlight it when it is not focused?
<RAOF> âª This is smuxi right hereâ¦ â«
<RAOF> tohuw: That's my understanding of it, yes.
<tohuw> Question marks everywhere. :'(
<tohuw> Thanks. I suppose I'll file it on launchpad, then see if a maintainer wants it sent upstream
<tohuw> Since it's a standard, it seems this is something Mozilla could do in source, unless this has varied results in other environments (I guess it shouldn't?)
<RAOF> It shouldn't.
<RAOF> How do you manage to get new tabs opened when firefox doesn't have focus, though?
<tohuw> Many ways. Easiest to quickly replicate: open a PDF, click a link in the PDF. New tab opens in FF but it doesn't take focus.
<RAOF> Ah, right.
<tohuw> I actually like that it doesn't take focus, I don't like that it doesn't raise a hint
<jhansonxi> (reposting from main channel): Since /etc/firefox/profile is gone, is there any way to define default bookmarks for new accounts other than manually editing /usr/lib/firefox-<some version number>/omni.ja ?
<tohuw> RAOF: Can I trouble you for the Unicode character reference for the symbols you were typing that didn't render in my IRC client? Or, if you like, you can simply email them to me. (/q me for address)
<RAOF> tohuw: u266a & u266b were two of them.  But I'm pretty sure you'll find this is a configuration error on the system that's hosting the smuxi-server; that's what it was when I had a similar problem.
<tohuw> RAOF: Ah! perhaps... I'm hosting it on a local server here running 12.04, but the server's fairly fresh out of the box... I may need some unicode-related package
<tohuw> (local to my network, not the same host as the laptop running the client)
<tohuw> details...
<RAOF> tohuw: Feel like pastebinning env?  (Or just $LANG)
<tohuw> Sure, sec
<tohuw> RAOF: hrm, how do I post my env? It is not how I thought it would be
<RAOF> Run env, copy the output to a pastebin manually?
<tohuw> RAOF: oh. #tryingtoohard
<tohuw> RAOF: http://paste.ubuntu.com/946682/
<RAOF> That looks right; you don't get any locale-related warnings when you run things there (like dpkg, or debconf?)
<tohuw> Nope
<tohuw> Just ran dpkg a few moments ago.
<tohuw> I could connect back with the local engine and try to replicate
<tohuw_> RAOF: hit me
<RAOF> âª
<tohuw_> success
<tohuw_> it's the server enginee
<tohuw_> engine
<RAOF> Â¡Win!
<bryceh> ð­
<pitti> Good morning
<ajmitch> morning pitti
<dholbach> good morning
<ajmitch> morning dholbach
<dholbach> hi ajmitch
<godmachine81> i hate to ask this question here but i don't really know where else i'd need to ask. could someone point me in the right direction on what i need to build unity from source on a non-ubuntu distro?
<RAOF> godmachine81: The âunityâ source package contains information about the build-dependencies.
<RAOF> But, basically, you can do the same as you do with a random piece of open source - try and build it, and see what it complains about not finding :)
<godmachine81> RAOF:: yea i have done that, but there is a weird issue with the utouch deps
<godmachine81> RAOF:: and i couldn't find any documentation.. i got one thing to build, but it wouldn't install. some gibberish about python. but i tried it with a few different python abis
<RAOF> Hm.
<RAOF> What distro are you trying it on?  I believe that Fedora have the utouch stack packaged now, so it's clearly not impossible :)
<godmachine81> and not much information on the configure options to maybe just disable utouch
<godmachine81> RAOF:: gentoo
<RAOF> I don't think you can disable utouch integration.
<godmachine81> what exactly is utouch?
<godmachine81> and nux?
<RAOF> The gesture stack, built on multitouch.
<RAOF> nux is a 3D engine/widget library ish.
<godmachine81> thats what i assumed it was, why can that not be disabled if building for a desktop?
<godmachine81> ^utouch that is
<RAOF> Because that's effort that's not useful to us.
<RAOF> Basically.
<godmachine81> hrm.. so building something for touch integration is packaged in with your desktop binaries? isn't that a useless in most cases?
<RAOF> You'd be surprised how many laptops have touchpads :)
<godmachine81> oh i thought you meant it was for touch as in touch screen
<RAOF> Yeah, it's also for that.
<asac> smoser: hi
<godmachine81> i've not seen any options in unity for gestures / touch customization, where are the settings hidden at?
<RAOF> There aren't any.
<RAOF> You just get a selection 3- and 4-finger gestures.
<godmachine81> i see
<godmachine81> quiet a big dep hell to resolve for such a useless feature lol
<godmachine81> i think it may have been intentional that it ended up that way though
<RAOF> No; it's just that it's not a dependency problem *for us* because we've obviously packaged the stack, and have done for some time.
<RAOF> The gestures are also really nice if you've got a multitouch or semi-multitouch trackpad; the apple magic trackpad is good for that.
<asac> smoser: whats the story with this cloud-init thing supposely updating sources.list based on timezone?
<asac> smoser: referring to your comment here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/linaro-android-infrastructure/+bug/932088/comments/43
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 932088 in Linaro Android Infrastructure "Ubuntu EC2 package mirror intermitent failures" [High,In progress]
<asac> is there a way to prevent that?
<mvo> jodh: hi, quick question, will upstart honor Required-Start: $syslog ? if I have a init file but no upstart file
<jodh> mvo: Upstart itself doesn't do anything with the LSB headers, so it depends on how insserv handles a missing dependency. Certainly rsyslog starts before the SysV compat layer starts so assuming it just adds some arbitrarily default ordering, your SysV service should work in this case. What service is it out of interest?
<mvo> jodh: aha, great. its unattended-upgrades, I'm trying to get data on why it appears to ahng on shutdown for some people (might well be not a issue with u-u itself but just the last message printed)
<vibhav> When wiil we hit Freeze for Unseeded applications?
<ogra_> see ubuntu-devel-announce ... there was a mail from the release manager
<ogra_> (or ubuntu-release)
<Laney> it was also on the release schedule
<gaaldering> hey micahg, i posted the issue with passenger on launchpad as requested :)
<pitti> mvo: is bug 289952 still actually alive in precise?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 289952 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "update-manager rewrites sources.list to only use official mirrors" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/289952
<pitti> mvo: if u-m _always_ uses archive.u.c instead of the local mirror, that sounds quite bad?
<StevenK> pitti: I upgraded my laptop a few days ago and it dealt with my local mirror fine.
<pitti> it doesn't seem to apply to all or even most users indeed
<pitti> skaet: ^ do you know why this was chosen to be added to the release notes?
<doko> infinity, did you give back the armhf gcc-4.7 build? apparently it died. do you know why?
<infinity> doko: In toolchain-r?
<doko> infinity, yes
<infinity> doko: I did no giving back, and didn't see the previous log. :/
<mvo> jodh: I just tested this and it appears that rsyslog goes away quicker than my stop script runs so any logging in the stop script gets lost - can you think of anything other than a converting to a upstart job to add a dependency? i.e. to ensure that on stop of unattended-upgrades rsyslogd is still running?
<mvo> pitti: there maybe a corner case for mixed local and official mirrors, but official archive and only-local mirrors should be fine
<pitti> mvo: ok, thanks; I dropped it from the release notes then
<jodh> mvo: ah - shutdown :) I'd echo direct to a tty device then.
<mvo> jodh: yes, that works, it would still be nice to have it in a logfile for inspecting errors
<jodh> mvo: you testing in kvm?
<mvo> jodh: i.e. to get a idea why it might have hung
<mvo> jodh: yes
<jodh> mvo: boot with "-serial file:/tmp/foo.log" and then have your service "echo stuff > /dev/ttyS0".
<mvo> jodh: thanks, that would work, but I'm looking for a solution that I can put into the package so that I can ask users for their syslog file
<mvo> I guess I could simply add a normal log file and not use syslog
<jodh> mvo: that might be the best option for simplicity as shutdown logging is tricky due to the /etc/init.d/sendsigs machine gun.
<cjwatson> 'pull-lp-source <anything>' fails - hilariously, this is a bug specific to (>= ?) release day
<cjwatson> (in distro-info)
<mvo> jodh: thanks, I added that now
<Laney> yeah, when there's not a development release it doesn't work so well
<tumbleweed> cjwatson: there's a 0-day NMU for that sitting in -updates
<tumbleweed> err in -proposed
<cjwatson> tumbleweed: good, thanks
<tumbleweed> it'd be nice to get that accepted quickly...
<cjwatson> I'd be OK with 0-daying that once we're released
<Laney> even with that it still tries to use quantal which doesn't yet exist :-)
<tumbleweed> Laney: slightly better failure mode :)
<Laney> the error could be better, yes
* ChanServ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 12.04 (Precise Pangolin) is released! | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> precise | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<cjwatson> Laney: That should be fixed soon ...
<Laney> :-)
<ogra_> WOHOOO !
<Laney> well done all
<didrocks> \o/
<ivoks> wohoo :)
<vibhav> so, when can we upload packages to quantal
<vibhav> ?
<cjwatson> shortly, not yet :-)
 * cjwatson has embarked on the new-release process but it's never been less than about a day to general upload, sometimes more
<tumbleweed> there'll be an announcement on ubuntu-devel-announce when the archive is open
<cjwatson> think it might be a bit longer
<Laney> oh, we should have cleaned up the packageset data
<Laney> darn
 * vibhav sits in the corner and waits
<geser> Laney: what cleanup is/was needed?
<Laney> there is duplicate information in the database
<Laney> which gives rise to problems when doing certain manipulations
<vibhav> And what do you exactly do to open the archive?
<stgraber> Laney: cjwatson fixed the duplication bug in LP, so it won't get worse when creating quantal
<stgraber> Laney: but the current data still needs fixing
<Laney> yes
<vibhav> I still did not understand
<Laney> it'll be good if it's copied consistently
<StevenK> stgraber, Laney: Right, we also plan to add a DB constaint on the LP side.
<smoser> asac, cloud-init updates /etc/apt/sources.list from a template file in /etc/cloud/templates.  Thats why you magically get a ec2 local mirror when you run in ec2.
<vibhav> what is copied?
<smoser> it does it once only, and very early in boot.
<stgraber> StevenK: that'd be good, I was kind of surprised that the constraint was enforced in the API but not in the DB
<geser> vibhav: the package set information from precise to quantal
<jdstrand> pitti: hi! can you mark both of these as merged: https://code.launchpad.net/~jtaylor/ubuntu/lucid/dropbear/2012-0920/+merge/103384 https://code.launchpad.net/~jtaylor/ubuntu/oneiric/dropbear/CVE-2012-0920/+merge/103385 ?
<ubottu> ** RESERVED ** This candidate has been reserved by an organization or individual that will use it when announcing a new security problem.  When the candidate has been publicized, the details for this candidate will be provided. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2012-0920)
<tumbleweed> loltypo https://www.facebook.com/ubuntulinux/posts/441913515834848
<vibhav> tumbleweed: heh
<vibhav> geser: How much time does the copying take?
<tumbleweed> vibhav: there's more to starting a new release than just copying
<vibhav> Excuse me if I look stupid, but what do you exactly do?
<cjwatson> Laney: the SQL query to do the cleanup will be identical to clean up both precise and quantal at the same time
<cjwatson> vibhav: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewReleaseCycleProcess
<Laney> OK, so your fix prevented it reoccuring.
<vibhav> thanks
<cjwatson> mostly, "learn how to type quantal an awful lot"
<tumbleweed> at least you get the practice in early :)
<vibhav> learnt
<Chipzz_> ubuntu.com down, known?
<StevenK> Chipzz_: Indeed
<ogra_> Chipzz, being worked on
<Chipzz> someone should probably theme the off-line page too ;P
<Hobbsee> ogra_: with finding a static page that has good things about ubuntu?  :P
<Chipzz> and possibly implement varnish + pressflow :)
<Chipzz> hey Hobbsee
<Hobbsee> I love the smell of servers melting in the morning
<Hobbsee> Chipzz: hey!
<Chipzz> you still alive?
<Hobbsee> yup.  And working in web hosting, amusingly
<ogra_> Hobbsee, nah, wildly clicking around in gimp to create a theme indeed :P
<Hobbsee> haha
<Chipzz> Hobbsee: some branch as me up till a couple of months ago
<Hobbsee> it's a fun place to be, really
<Hobbsee> (the sysadmin part, that is)
<tumbleweed> gaah, launchpad is taking strain too
<Hobbsee> "quick, everyone, report your bugs!"
<StevenK> Yeah, *that'll* help.
<mneptok> no .torrent files for Xubuntu AMD64 - http://torrent.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/precise/release/
<cjwatson> torrent.ubuntu.com is having general trouble
<cjwatson> The backend has thewm
<cjwatson> *them
<mneptok> while that's not good, at least it explains the lack of auto-population of the files
<vibhav> What does the "merge" tag in harvest.ubuntu.com mean?
<tumbleweed> presumablay that there is a merge to be done, merges.ubuntu.com
<vibhav> tumbleweed: What do I do for https://merges.ubuntu.com/d/dnspython/ ?
<tumbleweed> !merge | vibhav
<ubottu> vibhav: Merging is the process of including changes from other distributions (most commonly Debian) into Ubuntu packages, and is typically a major focus at the beginning of each Ubuntu development cycle.  Please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging for more information.
<vibhav> thanks
<cjwatson> The other thing I should say is that merges.ubuntu.com is currently hosed
<cjwatson> Attempting to update it causes the box to reboot
<vibhav> ah
<cjwatson> I asked IS about that earlier today, but it'll need somebody to look at it physically and today is not a good day for that
<vibhav> This is weird
<vibhav> Can anybody download the source of gnome-power-manager and check  for gpm-manager.c >
<vibhav> ?*
<mterry> barry, three packages aren't on your python3 spreadsheet: boto, cloudfiles, and paramiko
<barry> mterry: none of those have task: ubuntu-desktop.  how do they get seeded onto the desktop cd?
<ogra_> dependencies
<mterry> barry, ah...  right.  They aren't seeded, so perhaps not super important.  But they are used for duplicity as suggests
<diwic> vibhav, maybe they can help you out in the #ubuntu-motu channel
<mterry> barry, also, I guess duplicity itself is missing
<ScottK> barry: You should also look at the ship-live seed.
<ogra_> ++
<barry> mterry: duplicity is in the application's tab.  i guess suggests don't get the ubuntu-desktop task (only dependencies)
<ScottK> diwic: I think #ubuntu-desktop would be a better recommendation.
<mterry> barry, what level of feature regression are we willing to support?  (like the duplicity optional backends for ssh, s3, and rackspace above)
<mterry> barry, oh, didn't see the tab!
<diwic> vibhav, ok, try out #ubuntu-desktop instead then :-)
<barry> mterry: that's an excellent question.  ideally, no regressions, which i guess would mean that optional (suggests) would need to be ported.  that freaks me out even more though ;)
<mterry> barry, might also be worth tracking quickly's generated templates?  (I know it's in universe, but it's the recommended way to start with Ubuntu python development)
<mterry> They currently use Python2
<barry> mterry: maybe the thing to do is to add an 'optional' tab to the spreadsheet to cover stuff that isn't in the narrow path, but "would be good to have"
<mterry> barry, (to be clear, I'm willing to do a lot of the work for these things I'm mentioning, but just want them to get tracked)
<barry> mterry: fantastic!
<mterry> barry, I'll add an optional tab
<mterry> barry, oh, you did
<barry> mterry: :)
<barry> mterry: please do feel free to fill it out
<mterry> OK, will do that.  I know boto at least has a python3 branch that isn't merged into trunk yet
<barry> mterry: i'm happy to help, review, test, etc.
 * mterry wants quantal to open for syncs!
<cjwatson> Working on it :)
<seb128> mterry, tssss, we have desktop bugs to SRU still! ;-)
<mterry> seb128, pfft
<mterry> seb128, 12.04 is released, didn't you hear?
<seb128> mterry, or can we get a non ugly screenlock if q opens?
<mterry> seb128, no, too risky yet.  wait for R
<seb128> :-(
<mterry> :)
<seb128> I want the bling! ;-)
<seb128> mterry, btw lightdm has got weirder
<barry> 12.04 is so 20 minutes ago!
<seb128> mterry, it does the "login in..." hang bug every second log on any user now
<seb128> mterry, and I did chmod the userdir back to be world readable
<seb128> mterry, any user but not guest session, it's just bizarre
<mterry> seb128, :(
<seb128> mterry, well it seems it's few users, we will debug it next week, no worry
<seb128> that said reboot, I screwed lightdm again and I need guest session to valgrind unity, I've a hang issue with the staging ppa (well had, we reverted the commit which made it hang but I'm debugging it now)
<mterry> seb128, isht
<seb128> mterry, "isht"?!
<mterry> seb128, kind of like "ick" but more frustrated/wouldn't-touch-that-with-a-ten-foot-pole than grossed out
<seb128> oh, I see ;-)
<seb128> lol
<seb128> brb
<mterry> seb128, frustrate me at UDS and you can hear it in person
<seb128> mterry, can do!
<mterry> heh
<bjf> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 12.04 (Precise Pangolin) is released! | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> precise | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: bjf
<barry> cjwatson: ping debian bug 625509 looks like it's still waiting for review.  might be a good use of my time to look at your stack of patches today.
<ubottu> Debian bug 625509 in python-debian "python-debian: please port to Py3k" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/625509
<cjwatson> barry: I suspect the Debian maintainer needs to be poked
<cjwatson> But I wouldn't say no to extra review
<barry> cjwatson: ok.  would you suggest looking at each patch individually, or the whole branch?
<barry> cjwatson: and i'll send a poke once i've had a look
<bregma> I submitted an SRU for a package yesterday (and it's been accepted) and I've just been made aware of a couple more bugfixes that need to get in to 12.04...  should I submit a new SRU or is there a way to recall and resubmit it?
<cjwatson> barry: Individually, probably.  I think I tried to keep them logically separate
<smoser> anyone know what recently changed in multi-monitor ? now when i move mouse from laptop screen to external monitor it pauses annoyingly.
<dholbach> bregma, a separate new bug will probably cause less confusion
<amarunowski> is this the right place to ask questions regarding how to customize functionalities in the ubuntu UI?
<amarunowski> specifically, I want to replace the standard "Desktop Background" with a canvas-type element, so that I can draw my background programmatically
<amarunowski> anybody have suggestions for where i would look in the code to do that? or who can point me to an online resource?
<highvoltage> w/in 11
<amarunowski> is there a more active channel for people wanting to modify ubunut?
<astraljava> amarunowski: Depends on how you want to modify it. This channel doesn't cover all packages, so you should try to find more relevant channel for that project, if possible.
<astraljava> amarunowski: Ahh... sorry, didn't read the backlog correctly. I'll see whether I can find a more suitable one for you, hang on.
<amarunowski> well, I really want to replace the desktop background with a canvas element/opengl canvas/panel/etc. I think I'd have to change lightdm for that... right?
<astraljava> amarunowski: Maybe #ubuntu-artwork?
<amarunowski> i'll check it out, thanks ^_^
<astraljava> amarunowski: No problem. I'm not familiar with that area, though, so please don't feel bad if I redirected you wrong. :)
<amarunowski> daw, nobody is there :C.... Any idea what package I need to modify to get access to the desktop background layout?
<amarunowski> Well, I'm gonna go have lunch... But i'm glad to have found signs of life on this planet :3
<astraljava> amarunowski: It's the release day, cut the guys some slack. :)
<mpt> amarunowski, I think Nautilus draws the desktop background
<mpt> (since it often has icons on it)
<amarunowski> I guess I should, it being release day, say that I love what you guys do... more than i can convey via irc
<amarunowski> and... really? nautilus? I mean, that would make sense, considering it is basically just a folder browser. I know compiz calls the window "Desktop" in the exclude filters
<jcastro> ev: hey what causes this? http://askubuntu.com/questions/125455/12-04-liveusb-doesnt-upgrade-for-10-04-installation
<jcastro> (upgrade option not being displayed)
<ogra_> jcastro, only for 12.04.1
<ogra_> its on purpose
<ogra_> we never enabled auto-upgrades before -1
<ogra_> err .1
<jcastro> even when booting off a usb stick?
<ogra_> hmm, good question
<cjwatson> Shouldn't matter
<cjwatson> 10.04 is 10.04
<jcastro> ok so is there no way for a user to upgrade via usb from 10.04 to 12.04?
<jcastro> also, should I update the release notes wiki page with this information?
<cjwatson> -d or whatever the graphical equivalent is
 * cjwatson -> release party
<ogra_> well, slangasek just said its not preferred to put that into docs
<jcastro> oh ok
<ogra_> so tell it to that guy in a comment or so
<jcastro> cjwatson: thanks, that's enough for me to go on for people, cheers!
<jcastro> ogra_: nod
<ogra_> but dont update the release notes with it
<ogra_> if they ask, help them :)
<jcastro> ogra_: right
<h2p> Has anyone here ever done stuff with VOIP?  I am a computer science student looking for an internship, and got contacted by a company that says they are a VOIP company that makes configurations for phones, uses spreadsheets and visio to make designs, and talks to customers sets up phone systems forthem. Is this a good internship for a CS student or is it a waste of time?
<amarunowski> If the internship involves programming, it's probably not a huge waste of time for a CS student... (Just my 2 cents)
<astraljava> h2p: We won't know. Some companies have good positions, others don't. This has nothing to do with ubuntu development, though.
<mterry> barry, what is the color code for the python3 spreadsheet?
<barry> mterry: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Python/FoundationsQPythonVersions
<mterry> barry, ah thanks
<barry> mterry: np
<mterry> barry, though...  really should have had purple as the Canonical background...  /me sics marketing on you
<mterry> :)
<barry> :-D
<barry> mterry: why isn't that a default color choice for goononical docs? :)
<mterry> barry, good question
<mterry> barry, my read of http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/ implies that /bin/python should point to python3 if no python2 exists, but the plan is to not have it at all until you install python2?
<barry> mterry: i don't read the pep that way (i don't think that's its intent), but what languages leads you to that?
<mterry> barry, third Recommendation bullet point and first Migration one
<barry> mterry: i'm nearly certain that isn't the intent of the pep.  i guess in some sense we won't "provide python2 by default", but in reality we do.  it may not come on a pure fresh install from desktop, but i think pretty quickly if you install much software, you'll get python2, and it will be the default python
<mterry> barry, OK.  Third Recommendation just made me think that the PEP always wanted /bin/python to be present
<barry> mterry: i'm not going to do it now, but at some point, i'll bring up pep 394 in relationship to our plans.  i'll push back hard against any intent to have pep 394 force us to point /usr/bin/python at python3
<mterry> barry, yar.  I like the idea of the world always being explicit about python versions
<barry> mterry: +1
<amarunowski> where would I find the source code for the System Settings App?
<mterry> amarunowski, apt-get source gnome-control-center
<amarunowski> thanks :3
<hyperair> pitti: regarding bug #902603, i think it's still broken for oneiric->precise upgrades.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 902603 in taglib (Ubuntu Precise) "When installing Multi-Arch: same (meta-)package for two architectures, dpkg considers one arch as completely disappeared" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/902603
<slangasek> hyperair: if you don't apply the SRU updates first like the release notes warn you to, certainly
<hyperair> slangasek: aah.
<hyperair> slangasek: does anyone actually read those?
 * hyperair doesn't, as a desktop user
<hyperair> i might if i was managing a server though.
<slangasek> you don't read the release notes, and you don't make sure you have updates installed before doing a release upgrade? :)
<micahg> slangasek: can we make the updater in oneiric warn to apply updates first if it doesn't already?
<hyperair> yeah, i think that would be best
<maco> i thought it did warn that
<maco> since like 2008
<hyperair> slangasek: i'd assume that i could skip that step. (who cares about one or two security fixes if you're going to override them again anyway?)
<maco> ohgodifeelold
<maco> slangasek: you truly old-hats must feel REALLY old when you can refer to "oh yeah back in hoary...."
<slangasek> micahg: I'm not sure how straightforward that is
<slangasek> maco: I wasn't involved with hoary ;)
<micahg> maybe bdmurray or mvo can speak to that point
 * ogra_ was around since warty ... 
<ogra_> but please dont ask me when u-m started to warn :p
<maco> slangasek: oh, when did you add an ubuntu feather to your debian hat?
<slangasek> gutsy
<numberto> hi guys
<numberto>  ubuntu does not start after upgrade to 12.04.   Get an "[drm:intel_dsm_platform_mux_info]  *ERROR* MUX INFO call failed"  error and a black screen. Never gets to login screen. (The way I entered now is by going "load old linux")
<maco> if you hit ctrl+alt+f1 does it take you to a prompt at least?
<numberto> Didn't try that
<numberto> I try to load an older kernel
<numberto> it shows the sam error + some another one
<slangasek> numberto: you'll want to report a bug against the kernel package by running 'ubuntu-bug linux' and including the error messages
<numberto> and then loads ubuntu
<highvoltage> 9/win 15
<numberto> OK, never mind this. i will try to figure it out
<numberto> another thing I found
<numberto> I have about five icons in horizontal row
<numberto> when I select them all and move very close to the bottom of the screen and release them
<numberto> they all pack into one plac
<numberto> e
<maco> numberto: please do report a bug. the drm error sounds like it's having a driver issue with your graphics. that is something *really* ought to be fixed
<numberto> ok
<numberto> But how do I report a but, if I cannot load ubuntu with current kernel
<numberto> I start it with previous one
 * maco looks at slangasek
<numberto> Problem in linux-image-3.0.0-17-generic                 The problem cannot be reported: This is not official Ubuntu package. Please remove any third party package and try again.
<slangasek> numberto: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+filebug then
<doko> jamespage, do you have an URL for openjdk-7 ftbfs?
<doko> bug reports
<micahg> doko: are we switching the default this cycle?
<doko> micahg, yes
<jamespage> doko, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Java7Default
<doko> cool, thanks!
<mterry> barry, do you know much about pylint and python3 compatibility?  it seems to not know about the new print method?
<mterry> (gives me a syntax error on lines that have "file=sys.stderr")
<barry> mterry: i don't, mostly because i gave up on pylint.  pyflakes usually tells me the most important things i need to know without all the false positives, and it seems pretty py3 friendly
<mterry> barry, hmm, ok
<mterry> barry, am I doing something dumb?  Even pyflakes doesn't like the following:
<mterry> #!/usr/bin/python3
<mterry> import sys
<mterry> print('Testing', file=sys.stderr)
<mterry> I guess I'm missing how to trigger python3 mode
<barry> mterry: wow.  actually, it's not you.  interestingly if you add `from __future__ import print_function` you make it happy
<mterry> barry, sure, that makes sense, assuming the tool is python2-only
<barry> mterry: of course, that future import also works in python3, but it's not the same thing ;)
<mterry> barry, yeah.  I'll use that workaround for now, but good to know.  Worried about other python3-isms that pyflakes/pylint don't get
<barry> mterry: bug 989203
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 989203 in Pyflakes "pyflakes native support for Python 3" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/989203
<mterry> oh neat
<barry> well, i just filed that :)
<mterry> barry, still neat  :)
<mterry> Hmm, how do I run a script that isn't chmod +x with the right program?  (i.e. with whatever #! says)
<slangasek> by chmodding it? :)
<slangasek> the logic for parsing out shebang lines is all in the kernel itself, there isn't really a shorthand for doing this by hand
<mterry> weird
<mterry> seems like it wouldn't be unreasonable to be in a situation where you can't chmod it
<mdeslaur> isn't that the whole point of the executable bit? :)
<mterry> but don't know how there could be a security issue or whatever with a shortcut for figuring out which program to parse it
<mterry> mdeslaur, yeah, but sometimes you encounter a script that doesn't have it on (like setup.py sometimes doesn't)
 * mterry will just add chmod +x to his script
<mdeslaur> mterry: well, you can call the interpreter directly if you know what it is
<mterry> mdeslaur, sure, but in my case, it might be python2 or python3, so would have to parse
 * mdeslaur nods
 * mterry is shocked this isn't a solved problem
<slangasek> mterry: yeah, it's not a solved problem because chmod is easy :)
<mterry> If sl exists, this utility should too (a slippery slope argument, but still)
<mterry> barry, ah...  it's a python-distutils-extra bug assigned to you that is causing my chmod woes: bug 887699  (just to re-put it on your python3 radar.  I suspect only quickly is using it, so not super high priority)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 887699 in python-distutils-extra (Ubuntu) "Support python3 projects" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/887699
<barry> mterry: i guess now that it's in my browser tab, i *have* to fix it
<mterry> barry, tricked you!
<barry> mterry: oh! it's crashed without saving my session
<mterry> chrisccoulson, curse you!
<barry> chrisccoulson: thank you!
<chrisccoulson> whats up?
<barry> chrisccoulson: sorry, we're just joking :)
<mterry> chrisccoulson, nothing  :)  barry is avoiding a bug by *claiming* that firefox crashed on him
<chrisccoulson> heh
<chrisccoulson> not saving your session is unusual. sometimes it's "hidden" if you had more than one window open though. try History -> Restore Closed Windows ;)
 * slangasek snickers
<chrisccoulson> i normally always find it there when i think it's lost my session :)
<mterry> Your move, barry
<barry> oh! the cat's eaten it
<mterry> :)
<mterry> jcastro, did you just find a meme machine in your office?  :)
<jcastro> mterry: we need that at UDS
<maco> i remember there being a time gap between release day for an lts and when the previous lts can upgrade to it. what is that time gap, and where is it documented?
<maco> i *think* it's 3 months to the first point release, but i dont recall where i got that
<StevenK> maco: The point releases are shown on the release schedule.
<maco> StevenK: i know that, but i dont know where its documented that lts-to-lts isnt enabled until the point release
<maco> and im not sure the point release is actually lts-to-lts enablement time
<maco> or for all i know, that delay was only on 10.04
<robbiew> maco: it isn't documented, but you are correct
<maco> robbiew: thanks
<robbiew> you can upgrade whenever you want
<robbiew> however the notification via update-manager isn't turned on
<maco> ah ok
<robbiew> until the .1 release
<maco> someone on the loco mailing list said they couldnt figure out how to get to 12.04 from 10.04
<robbiew> maco: hmm...I guess 'do-release-upgrade' takes them to 10.10?
<maco> robbiew: i dont know. i dont think they tried do-release-upgrade.
<maco> they said they installed updates, tried to see if there wre more updates in cli, no more updates, started UM again, and it still didnt notify so whats wrong?
<ScottK> maco: They'll still need to use -d until the switch is thrown after .1
<lifeless> bdmurray: around ?
<maco> ScottK: won't -d start pointing to quantal son?
<maco> *soon?
<maco> i mean not *That* soon, but in a few weeks
<ScottK> Not if you're starting from Lucid.
<ScottK> u-m knows the difference.
<maco> fancy
<maco> thanks, sent a mail to the list :)
<robbiew> maco -> http://askubuntu.com/questions/125392/no-new-release-found-when-upgrading-a-from-10-04-lts-to-12-04-lts
<robbiew> ;)
<maco> my google fu has failed me
<maco> i was searching like.... lts-to-lts upgrade delay, lts-to-lts update manager delay.... etc
<maco> lts-to-lts update manager 3 months
<lifeless> bdmurray: nvm, mailed you.
#ubuntu-devel 2012-04-27
<pitti> Good morning
<ion> Hi
<dholbach> good morning
<ev> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 12.04 (Precise Pangolin) is released! | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> precise | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: bjf, ev
<lifeless> ok, I have an offtopic q; what would cause setgid(1000) to fail in a process I just ran as sudo process; my uid being 1000, and the process is a fuse file system provider
<lifeless> pointers etc appreciated
<lifeless> EPERM is the error
<pitti> was just going to ask, but man setgid() actually lists that as only possible error
<pitti> lifeless: do you get an AppArmor violation in dmesg by any chance?
<lifeless> its being called from the pre_exec hook of a subprocess call
<lifeless> checking
<lifeless> [1021271.432495] iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Tx aggregation enabled on ra = 94:44:52:a8:40:2f tid = 0
<lifeless> [1021547.963081] iwlwifi 0000:02:00.0: Tx aggregation enabled on ra = 94:44:52:a8:40:2f tid = 6
<lifeless> (e.g. no, not AFAICT)
<lifeless> pitti: oh, and finally, the subprocess call preexec function does a chroot as its very very first thing
<lifeless> so fork; chroot; setgid -> failure
<lifeless> its chrooting into the parent processes fuse fs
<pitti> lifeless: at the time you do setgid() you have euid==1000?
<pitti> or euid==0?
<lifeless> I sure hope so, let me instrument
<lifeless> (the chroot works, so I have been assuming that)
<pitti> if you are not root, i. e. euid=1000, then in the chroot the uid 1000 might not be in group 1000, or there is no group 1000 in /etc/groups or something like that?
<lifeless> one possibility is that /etc/groups isn't in the chroot
<pitti> lifeless: so printing out euid, uid, egid, and gid is useful; if that looks alright, then maybe print capget()
<ogra_> if it is its very unlikely to contain 1000
<pitti> that shouldn't matter if you are euid=0, but very well might if you are euid=1000
<ogra_> yeah
<jamespage> doko: the java7 FTBFS bugs will need a retest early in quantal - suspect there will be some new ones as well
<lifeless> 0 0 0 0
<lifeless> before the chroot
<lifeless> will grab after the chroot figures, but I wouldn't expect them to have changed
<lifeless> yeah, all 0
<pitti> hm, perhaps there is some new YAMA magic or whatever which removes capabilities after chroot()?
<sbeattie> I don't think so...
<pitti> lifeless: can you compare the output of cap_get_proc() before and after chroot?
<pitti> and print it?
<lifeless> I'll take the chroot out as an experiment
<lifeless> no error without the chroot
<pitti> lifeless: in particular, test cap_get_proc() & CAP_SETGID ?
<lifeless> what module is cap_get_proc in?
<pitti> #include <sys/capability.h>
<lifeless> harh
<lifeless> (this is python :P)
<pitti> oh, hmm; ctypes FTW?
<sbeattie> lifeless: paste strace -f output perhaps?
<lifeless> python-cap-ng
<lifeless> so, cap_to_text() ?
<lifeless> hah, python segfault
<lifeless> in cap_to_text
<angeloc> Hi guys, i'm writing some scripts for ubuntu accomplishments, until now i solved all my problems reading online api documentation, but I'm now in stuck
<angeloc> i have to find all packages uploaded by a person, can you suggest me the best way?
<diwic> seb128, I was able to resolve part a) of bug 984637, see comment 8
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 984637 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) "[soundnua] moving running input stream fails" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/984637
<diwic> seb128, and part b) has been resolved by ronoc already
<micahg> angeloc: look at this: http://ubuntu-dev.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi
<seb128> diwic, great, thanks, I will make sure both are fixed in the SRU
<diwic> seb128, thank you
<tumbleweed> micahg, angeloc: be aware that ubuntu-sponsorships.cgi is quite slow, please don't hit it too hard
<micahg> angeloc: tumbleweed: I wasn't suggesting to use it, but to look at the code behind it (link at the bottom)
<tumbleweed> ah
<angeloc> tumbleweed, thank you
<angeloc> tumbleweed, micahg: ok
<micahg> angeloc: although, now that I think about it, would probably want to query Launchpad directly rather than Debian's database
<tumbleweed> it gets data from UDD. We have a UDD mirror on ubuntuwire, so if you need to run something server side that accesses UDD, it's doable
<angeloc> tumbleweed, micahg: weel yes, i'm using launchpad api for all my needs
<angeloc> tumbleweed, micahg: but I cannot find a way to get all packages uploaded by a person
<tumbleweed> angeloc: yeah launchpad's API won't help you there
<micahg> angeloc: #launchpad or #launchpad-dev would probably be better
<angeloc> tumbleweed, micahg: i asked there, but no replies ...
<lifeless> win
<lifeless> #0  0x00007ffff523d501 in cap_to_text () from /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcap.so.2
<lifeless> #1  0x00007ffff545aea4 in ffi_call_unix64 () from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload/_ctypes.so
<lifeless> #2  0x00007ffff545a8c5 in ffi_call () from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload/_ctypes.so
<lifeless> #3  0x00007ffff544b2c2 in _ctypes_callproc () from /usr/lib/python2.7/lib-dynload/_ctypes.so
<lifeless> (this works if I do it outside of a worker thread)
<lifeless> could libcap be unsafe with threads? seems unlikely. ..
<pitti> lifeless: libcap shoudl be thread save, but ctypes might not?
<lifeless> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7024507/am-i-crashing-ctypes-or-libflac seems relvant
<lifeless> *relevant*
<lifeless> pitti: it claims to be threadsafe
<lifeless> pitti: it may be this - http://bugs.python.org/issue11048 - a libffi bug
<pitti> lifeless: oh, is your chroot r/o?
<lifeless> pitti: it should support writes to /tmp
<lifeless> pitti: but its a bit hard to reason about
<lifeless> pitti: as its a fuse layer
<lifeless> pitti: in the parent process
<lifeless> I'm whipping up a cython binding
<lifeless> pitti:
<lifeless> '=ep'
<lifeless> '=ep'
<lifeless> before and after the chroot
<pitti> lifeless: ok, so it's not that either; I'm afraid that was my last idea what could cause it to EPERM :/
<lifeless> does setgid read stuff from the fs ?
 * lifeless is willing to assume his fuse layer is buggered ;>
<pitti> no, it shouldn't
<pitti> ev: wow, haven't seen https://errors.ubuntu.com/ before
<ev> pitti: it only went live last/this week :)
<lifeless> shiny isn't it
<ev> *lots* more to do there
<ev> so read it as what it could be, not what it is :)
<pitti> yes, sure, but it's the first real ouput I see from whoopsie
<lifeless> ev: what does the MTBF mean there?
<ev> the mean of the mean time between failures for all users in the system (so only people who have experienced crashes)
<pitti> ev: oh, this has public tracebacks?
<ev> pitti: they're going behind openid
<ev> webops is on it
<ev> err Ubuntu SSO
<pitti> that pycentral crash looks so trivial to fix
<ev> I know, right? :)
<ev> pitti, lifeless: ps. we've shovelled 3,868,092 crashes into the database since March 20th
<lifeless> sweet
<lifeless> what % have been retraced ?
<ev> https://errors.ubuntu.com/api/retracer/results
<ev> mind, not all crashes get retraced (some are python, and we only ask for one core dump for each stacktrace address signature)
<ev> not sure why 10.04 is showing up
<ev> it's on my list to look into
<hrw> debootstrapping quantal ends with: E: Release signed by unknown key (key id AED4B06F473041FA)
<ev> it's going off apport's DistroRelease field
<hrw> what is a reason?
<dholbach> cking, regarding bug 987840 - my sister has the same model, so if you need some testing, please let me know
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 987840 in linux (Ubuntu) "[HP-Pavilion-g6] hangs during suspend" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/987840
<lifeless> ev: so a tiny proportion ?
<lifeless> assuming that "20120426": {"Ubuntu 10.04:failed": 17, "Ubuntu 10.04:success": 1, "Ubuntu 11.10:failed": 3, "Ubuntu 11.10:success": 8, "Ubuntu 12.04:failed": 864, "Ubuntu 12.04:success": 1812} means what I think it does ?
<ev> yes
<cking> dholbach, ok, thanks for letting me know
<lifeless> ev: how many of that 3.8M are dupes, do you know ?
<hrw> nevermind - rebuilt debootstrap with quantal
<ev> lifeless: one moment, I'll craft something to count buckets
<lifeless> pitti: an alternate approach, is it possible to setuid etc while keeping the capability to chroot ?
<pitti> lifeless: yes, there is
<pitti> lifeless: don't use setuid(), use setresuid(uid, uid, -1)
<pitti> then you can switch back to setresuid(0, 0, -1)
<pitti> but of course that only provides protection against programmer errors
<pitti> a malicious program can also setresuid back to root
<pitti> so in general it's better to fork and setuid() in the child
<lifeless> pitti: ah, I mean irreversible setuid, keep the capability to chroot /only/
<pitti> lifeless: yes, that works, too
<lifeless> pitti: the current does the better thing, but has this little flaw its not working
<cjwatson> hrw: That's the Debian signing key, so you were accidentally bootstrapping Debian
<lifeless> pitti: so I'm looking for a workaround; keeping root is undesirable
<lifeless> pitti: pointers on how to keep the capabilities ?
<pitti> lifeless: prctl(PR_SET_KEEPCAPS), setuid()
<pitti> lifeless: and the cap_set_proc() and drop all but CAP_SYS_CHROOT
<lifeless> thanks; I presume I call a cap_set_proc to drop the caps after the chroot
<ev> lifeless: 30525 total problems (with the aforementioned 3.8 million instances)
<lifeless> I'm thinking this will let me alter the order of calls
<pitti> lifeless: note that with prctl(PR_SET_KEEPCAPS) and setuid() the process still has effectively root privs
<lifeless> ev: cool; and the daily thing shows instances, not problems ?
<ev> the website shows problems, not instances (until you click through on a crash signature)
<lifeless> ev: I meant the counts
<pitti> lifeless: and yes, you should drop CAP_SYS_CHROOT right after chrooting, otherwise you can easily escape out of the chroot
<ev> something is wrong with the numbers in the table
<ev> ah yes
<ev> the counts in the table (frequency) should show instances
<ev> but they feel wrong at the moment - another thing I'll be looking into
<jk-> looks like precise hasn't made it to http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/meta-release-lts yet, is that intentional?
<jk-> (it's in /meta-release though)
<cjwatson> Yes.
<cjwatson> It won't until 12.04.1.
<cjwatson> It's in http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/meta-release-lts-development so that do-release-upgrade -d works.
<jk-> cjohnston: ok, thanks :)
<jk-> sensible plan is sensible.
<lifeless> pitti: lolol that works now chroot fails because of denied access to the fs; *that* I can do something about :)
<micahg> cjwatson: are you planning on removing the archive enforcement for the xz deb dpkg pre-depends for quantal (or is it already done)?
<lifeless> pitti: and this may explain the setgid/setuid failure - if the cwd isn't readable by the new group.
<lifeless> pitti: however, that can wait for evil genius saturday
<lifeless> after sleeps
<lifeless> pitti: thanks for the hand, much appreciated
<pitti> lifeless: hm, strange -- setuid() shouldn't care about cwd
<tjaalton> jibel: hey, you marked 989525 as dupe of a closed bug, but that's wrong
<tjaalton> jibel: since the bug is not the error message of the dupe, but the fact that a package is installed and later dpkg claims it's not
<tjaalton> jibel: uh, sorry.. noticed your comment..
<tjaalton> jibel: ok so disregard everything I said :)
<cjwatson> micahg: At some point yes
<cjwatson> micahg: https://code.launchpad.net/~cjwatson/launchpad/remove-data-tar-xz-version-requirement/+merge/103859 FYI
<micahg> cjwatson: shouldn't the check stay in place for pre-12.10 stuff? (I'm thinking backports here)
<cjwatson> No
<cjwatson> We don't generally bother since it's trivial to review and it's painful to make the check act that way in LP
<cjwatson> We didn't bother for bzip2
<cjwatson> Also, backports don't matter much for lucid->precise upgrades
<micahg> I was thinking backporting to lucid :)
<cjwatson> DDTT, it'll fail
<cjwatson> the check in archiveuploader wasn't for the benefit of people backporting without paying attention, it was solely to ensure sane upgrades
<cjwatson> your backports tests should catch wrongness like that already without LP needing to help you
<micahg> ok :)
<hyperair> weird. it looks like liferea's dbus stuff just screws up every now and then
<jdstrand> pitti: hi! would you mind rejecting https://code.launchpad.net/~jtaylor/ubuntu/precise/dropbear/CVE-2012-0920/+merge/103739, https://code.launchpad.net/~jtaylor/ubuntu/oneiric/dropbear/CVE-2012-0920/+merge/103385 and https://code.launchpad.net/~jtaylor/ubuntu/lucid/dropbear/2012-0920/+merge/103384. they are security fixes against the release version, not security (I have uploaded the patches though)
<pitti> jdstrand: sure, done
<hyperair> first the menu disappears from the unity panel and reappears on the liferea window, then it disappears from the messaging indicator...
<jdstrand> pitti: thanks! :)
<Laney> cjohnston: Hey, I've got some summit questions if you can help meâ¦ What does "Attend this meeting" do? Does it have the same effect on the scheduler as subscribing to the blueprint (what about Participation Essential)? And what is "Propose a meeting"? Is it now an additional step that needs doing after all of the LP blueprint stuff to get stuff on the schedule?
<cjohnston> Laney: attend is the same as subscribing to a bp except that if there is a bp you will not get the emails when the bp is changed
<cjohnston> I have to look at the code about the essential question.. I didn't write that part
<cjohnston> Laney: the blueprints still work the same way
<Laney> I'm not sure what effect that has on the scheduler to be honest, but if it does have some then ideally you could set that through summit too.
<cjohnston> if you follow the old.way of creating a bp for the meeting, you don't need to worry about proposing a meeting in summit
<cjohnston> proposing a meeting in summit would be instead of creating a bp
<Laney> ah, another way of proposing meetings without needing a blueprint
 * Laney gets it now
<Laney> thanks
<cjohnston> Laney:  the essential or something else.. I dont understand your comment
<Laney> go to subscribe to a blueprint and you will see a "Participation essential" checkbox
<Laney> it is my understanding that this has some influence on the scheduler vs. just normally subscribing
<Laney> I was suggesting that this should also be possible through the new summit UI
<cjohnston> Laney:  ok.. ya.. familiar with that, just wanted to make sure I had context.of the statement right
<cjohnston> ty
<Laney> np
<cjohnston> Laney: I'm talking with mhall119  about it right now
<Laney> :-)
<ogra_> dholbach, oh, btw i'll be in berlin over the weekend
<dholbach> ogra_, nice - when?
<ogra_> well, tomorrow afternoon until ...
<ogra_> open end :)
<dholbach> awesome
<s1aden> ogra_: moving?  Or just until UDS?
<ogra_> s1aden, just visiting a friend
<bjf> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 12.04 (Precise Pangolin) is released! | Dev' of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://bit.ly/HaWdtw | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for hardy -> precise | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: ev
<tedg> I'm getting an odd behavior when installing packages: http://paste.ubuntu.com/949899/
<tedg> Does anyone have a clue on what's going on there?
<seb128> tedg, do you use i386 or amd64?
<seb128> "/sbin/ldconfig.real: /lib/i386-linux-gnu/ is not a symbolic link" is weird
<seb128> I blame infinity :p
<tedg> seb128, I use amd64 but have a bunch of i386 packages (I'm not sure why)
<seb128> tedg, multiarch?
<tedg> Guessing I installed flash or something that pulled them in.
<seb128> righ
<ogra_> stop cross-grading to redhat !
<tedg> Yeah, but I imagine they don't come for fun ;-)
<seb128> you can probably to uninstall them and see what it wants to remove
<seb128> that's orthogonal to the warnings though
<ogra_> but yeah, probably balme infinity, seb128 is right
<ogra_> or doko :)
<seb128> the fun factor is higher when you blame infinity though ;-)
<ogra_> indeed :)
<happyaron> jono: ping
<trijntje> Hi all, can anybody tell me who is responsible for hosting the tracker for ubuntu torrents?
<cjwatson> Canonical.
<trijntje> cjwatson: sorry for double posting. What I meant was if there is any team/person I could contact about using the ubuntu tracker for localized iso images
<cjwatson> trijntje: I suspect we might not be willing to do that.  That tracker is on very old hardware and has a hard time of it as it is.
<cjwatson> trijntje: But I guess you could ask #canonical-sysadmin on freenode.
<trijntje> cjwatson: I'll ask there, thanks. I'm from a small country, so it shouldnt add too much extra load
<cjwatson> Right, but if we add one localised image then to be fair we have to be willing to add them all.
<cjwatson> And that's a lot, at least potentially.
<trijntje> thats true, I'll just ask and see ;)
<pelya> Hi. I've made an app for Android, that will install and run Ubuntu without root privileges (that is, you can run it on a stock phone, without custom ROM or anything, it's similar to Wubi in this regard). It's achieved by using fakechroot, and of course it's buggy like hell. The mouse and keyboard are highly advised, but not required (Galaxy Note' stylus substitutes mouse quite well).  Here's the link: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cun
<pelya> I've tested it on Galaxy Note, and I've installed and launched Gimp using Synaptic (took several tries though), no promises that any other application will work.
<pelya> There was a lot of fuss about Ubuntu on Android, and there's lot of text here: http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android  it mostly advertises Ubuntu to cellphone manufacturers, but it misses one point - those guys are driven by money and business, and they are not interested in anything that does not show immediate profits (even if that's something as simple as rooting your device and unpacking tarfile). So, Ubuntu needs an app, a simple app that non-techie
<pelya> Alternatively, we may try to wrap some popular applications with no alternatives on Android, like Gimp or Libreoffice, into minimal fakechrooted Linux environment, however that stuff can only be installed into internal phone storage (not SD card), which is usually very limited, so 2-3 of them will eat all free space.
<pelya> So, I've wanted to make announcement on the ubuntu-mobile mailing list, but there's no such mailing list and the link is broken on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu  So, where should I post that info, or this IRC channel is enough? I suppose I should open a bug on an Ubuntu brainstorm page.
<SpamapS> pelya: perhaps ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list would be better, IRC is not a great place to announce things
<pelya> I've created a ticket on brainstorm.ubuntu.com, so the idea won't get lost (I hope)
<dobey> barry: ping
<barry> dobey: pong
<dobey> barry: hey, how does one get things added to the python3 porting progress spreadsheet?
<slangasek> as requirements?
<slangasek> did we miss some? :)
<dobey> yes. there are things we'll need for u1, which aren't on there
<slangasek> for parts of u1 that are going to be on the CD, though?
<barry> dobey: just edit the doc!  it's shared publicly and anons can edit it
<slangasek> I thought the main body of u1 isn't on the CD currently
<dobey> slangasek: yes, particularly for running the test suites, though not necessarily requirements for the runtime
<barry> dobey: put those on the "good to have" sheet
<dobey> slangasek: only part of u1 not currently on CD is the qt dependant bits
<dobey> barry: well i don't see how we can port u1 itself without them :)
<barry> dobey: that's where we're putting things that aren't strictly required for the cd but might be useful for other reasons (e.g. Suggests)
<slangasek> dobey: ah, and that's documented on the spreadsheet, yes - not sure what I was thinking of, probably a different release :)
<dobey> though i suspect the big problem for us is goign to be twisted
<slangasek> barry, dobey: I think anything needed for the test suite needs to be treated as required; we don't want to be sacrificing testability in the process of python3 porting
<barry> dobey: yep, twisted is something of a blocker.  i've been chatting with various folks in the twisted community.  we'll have to talk about how to get the parts of twisted we need ported in 4 months, at uds
<barry> slangasek: agreed.  dobey feel free to put those testing requirements in the main pages.  maybe add a comment about what they're used for
<dobey> barry: yeah, i just added myself to the blueprint as participation essential :)
<dobey> ok, will do
<barry> dobey: +1
<barry> kenvandine: ping.  i wonder if you could provide some help with running the test suite for lp:gwibber
<kenvandine> barry, sure
<kenvandine> you need to run make check  from in the test subdir
<barry> kenvandine: ah, thanks, let me try that
<kenvandine> tests isn't in the SUBDIRS
<barry> kenvandine: (i'm working on removing the dependency on mx.DateTime since it looks like mx won't be ported to py3 any time soon)
<kenvandine> barry, AWESOME!
<kenvandine> i was worried about that
<barry> kenvandine: yikes: ./test-runner: line 2: dbus-test-runner: command not found
<kenvandine> ah, you need dbus-test-running
<kenvandine> s/running/runner
<barry> gotcha
<kenvandine> barry, i was planning to spend my spare time next week during the product sprint trying to run gwibber-service with py3 to see how much pain that would be
<kenvandine> get a feeling for it before UDS
<kenvandine> barry, how are you feeling about it?
<barry> kenvandine: awesome.  definitely ping me if you want any help.  right now i just want to get rid of mx :)
<barry> kenvandine: freaking out a bit at the amount of work, but excited to be digging in :)
<barry> kenvandine: do you know what package gtk.test comes in?
<kenvandine> so it won't be "trivial" :-D
<barry> ImportError: No module named gtk.test
<barry>  
<barry> ;)
<kenvandine> hummm
<kenvandine> must be the gtk gir?
<kenvandine> no... /me looks
<kenvandine> barry, where is that coming from?
<barry> kenvandine: weird.  it came the first time i ran 'make check', but now it's not happening!
<kenvandine> barry, odd...
<kenvandine> :)
<barry> kenvandine: well, i guess we can pretend it never happend
 * kenvandine never saw a thing
<kenvandine> :)
<barry> kenvandine: :)  thanks.  let's see how far i get
<kenvandine> barry, the mx.DateTime stuff is actually covered in the tests, which should help
<barry> kenvandine: phew :)
<kenvandine> keep the tests using mx.DateTime and change the service to see if it breaks the tests
<barry> great idea
 * happyaron sabdfl 
 * happyaron sorry...
<sabdfl> np
<ScottK> Where is the knob I turn to coax apport into sending bug reports and not just to the crash database?
<dobey> anyone know how to get -Wmaybe-uninitialized on gcc in precise? doesn't seem to exist there, but i have code failing to build on quantal because of it, so it makes it hard to fix :-/
<slangasek> ScottK: apparently the answer is to delete line 23 of /etc/apport/crashdb.conf :/
<ScottK> slangasek: Thanks.
<slangasek> dobey: are you looking for -Wuninitialized?
<dobey> slangasek: no, there seems to be a maybe-uninitialized in the new gcc now
<slangasek> which "new" gcc?
<slangasek> gcc-4.7?
<dobey> yeah
<slangasek> ok
<slangasek> well, I expect the answer is you can't (sanely) get it on precise, and would need to set up a quantal chroot for debugging
<dobey> so it would seem :-/
<ScottK> That did it.  Thanks.
<slangasek> dobey: really though, if you're trying to debug build failures on quantal, you should use a quantal chroot *anyway*, since there could be any number of other latent issues
<slangasek> i.e. issues not related to the compiler
<slangasek> kees: what do you think of resolvconf running chattr -i automatically on upgrade and popping a debconf prompt to let the admin know? (bug #989585)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 989585 in resolvconf (Ubuntu) "resolvconf failed to install/upgrade because /etc/resolv.conf immutable" [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/989585
<kees> slangasek: that'd be fine, IMO.
<kees> slangasek: I would have welcomed it in my situation
 * slangasek nods
<slangasek> we've effectively already said that you don't get to keep it immutable, so the admin doesn't actually have a choice
<slangasek> so no sense in making them do it manually when we can do it automatically
<maco> i'll need to remember that one
<slangasek> maco: ?
<maco> i am a big fan of chattr +i as a hack to work around daemons stomping on my config
<maco> i'm sure ive used it on resolv.conf before
<slangasek> ah
<slangasek> yeah, /etc/resolv.conf is officially no longer Your Configâ¢. :)
<Nafallo> O_o
<bdmurray> slangasek: I think the only thing to do with bug 989040 is mark it invalid
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 989040 in freetype (Ubuntu) "package libfreetype6 2.4.8-1ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess dpkg-deb --control returned error exit status 2" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/989040
<bdmurray> slangasek: and then block those in apport
<hyperair> well this sucks. gnome-sushi's scrolling is broken in precise, probably because clutter can't handle xi2
<barry> kenvandine: well, mx.DateTime definitely has more powerful time string parsers.  it's a bit hard for me to tell what the expected input formats are, but i think it's ISO 8601 from FB, right?
<barry> kenvandine: gwibber/util/__init__.py's parsetime() is more difficult to decipher.
<dobey> barry: does it really make any sense to differentiate between binary and source packages on the python 3 spreadsheet?
<barry> kenvandine: oh, and naive timestamps, utc?  i think local/naive, but FB's API makes me think maybe us/pacific timezones
<barry> dobey: mostly, that's for convenience so you don't have to figure out what to download to hack
<dobey> barry: i mean, shouldn't it only list the source packages? it seems silly to me to list the same things over and over N times, particularly for sources which create numerous binary packages
<kenvandine> barry, i think we store all the timestamps as utc
<dobey> barry: the library/application split can also be a bit confusing for some of these packages
<kenvandine> but i vaguely recall not all of the services gave us utc so we do the conversion
<dobey> but perhaps that just exposes problems in the binary packaging that need to be fixed as well
<kenvandine> i think facebook might give us the logged in users current time with timezone
<kenvandine> barry, i think parsetime was to convert the timestamp without the local locale
<barry> dobey: probably should just list source packages, but the initial search yielded binary packages so that kind of got exposed through the tools that created the initial spreadsheet
<barry> kenvandine: so let me ask it a different way.  are all these semantics tested? :)
<kenvandine> yes :)
<barry> kenvandine: excellent!  i'm less worried about screwing it up then :)
<barry> kenvandine: thanks
<barry> brb
<kenvandine> well, the test suite doesn't take into account all the possible variations of time strings we might get from the service, it just uses the sample data
<e11bits> I would like to modify an existing package and make it available to the public as a variant of the original package. Are there some recipes on how to change package naming, versioning, control files to do so? I'm sure I'm not the first one in doing something like this.
<dobey> lol, there's a screenshot for pyflakes in the software center
<dobey> e11bits: the personal package archives page on launchpad help has info about how to do it with launchpad PPAs
<e11bits> dobey: thanks. I will have a look and already threaten to come back with more questions (or if you name a channel that is more suited for things like this)
<dobey> barry: how does one package an application such as pep8 for both python3 and python 2.x exactly?
<tumbleweed> dobey: you usually end up doing a pep8 and pep83
<tumbleweed> well, pep8-3 would probably be better
<tumbleweed> e11bits: #ubuntu-packaging
<dobey> ick
<e11bits> tumbleweed: Ah, great! Thanks!
<tumbleweed> unless it has a shebang, you can't tell what version of python a .py file is targetting
<dobey> tumbleweed: what if it targets both?
<tumbleweed> then run both pep8s on it :)
<tumbleweed> pep8 is probably something that wouldn't need a separate version for python3, though
<tumbleweed> pyflakes would
<dobey> well pep8 apparently does
<dobey> try "python3 pep8 /usr/bin/pep8" for a fun error
<dobey> yay eggs
<tumbleweed> dobey: I mean, the level of analylis it does on python source would probably allow one version to work on both. I wasn't saying I expected it to run on python3
<dobey> tumbleweed: or i guess it would just include the python3 one in the package as well?
<dobey> tumbleweed: oh, does it not actually import files to analyze them?
<tumbleweed> nope, it parses them with piles of regexes
<dobey> ok, well my original question with s/pep8/pyflakes/ then? :)
<tumbleweed> so we'd probably do a separate pyflakes3 binary package
<tumbleweed> (depending on how upstream supported python3, it could be a new source package, too. some upstreams are only supporting python3 throguh separate py3-only forks)
<barry> dobey, tumbleweed, kenvandine sorry, i was afk.  i agree w/tumbleweed
<slangasek> bdmurray: 989040> ack
<Amoz> bkerensa, you're in the live hangout, right?
<bkerensa> Amoz: yes
<bkerensa> Amoz: do you have a question?
<Amoz> bkerensa, Wayland!
<bkerensa> Amoz: What about?
<Amoz> please say something about Wayland =)
<Amoz> progress, etc.
<Amoz> is it going into 12.10?
<slangasek> jono: rc6
<slangasek> ;)
<Amoz> bkerensa, ^ something about the status of it, is it usable yet? etc :)
<bkerensa> Amoz: there :)
<Amoz> bkerensa, aah too bad
<Amoz> jono, one of the options? please tell me more!
<ScottK> This really isn't the IRC channel for discussing a live hangout someone is having.
<Amoz> ScottK, sorry, would you mind guiding me where I can get in touch with them? :)
<ScottK> No idea, but this channel is for discussion of development of Ubuntu.
<stgraber> Amoz: /query jcastro, /query bkerensa, /query akgraner or /query jono come to mind
<Amoz> stgraber, thank you :)
<bkerensa> Amoz: you could join #Ubuntu-community-team and ask any questions there
<bkerensa> :)
<Amoz> I wasn't aware it was so important to keep it clean in here :(
<akgraner> Amoz, just gave you the link to watch the stream
<akgraner> and please join the channel bkerensa posted to ask questions - it's ok - this is all new to us as well :-)
#ubuntu-devel 2012-04-28
<SpamapS> interesting..
<SpamapS> shouldn't perl, which directly links libperl, depend on libperl (= ${binary:Version}) ?
<SpamapS> well anyway, bug #989788 has me thinking about that
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 989788 in perl (Ubuntu) "package nagios-plugins-basic 1.4.15-5ubuntu3 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 127" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/989788
<ScottK> SpamapS: Eventually you're going to triage enough of those postfix exit 75 bugs that you'll finally write a bug pattern for it ....
<ScottK> dobey: Now that precise is out the door, if you guys want to take another shot at the python-qt4 split, I'm game to work with you on it and get it into Debian.
<SpamapS> ScottK: I thought I did write a bug pattern for it. In fact, I think I did, and many of them are gone.
<cjwatson> SpamapS: On i386, perl is statically linked to libperl.a for performance.  On other architectures, the actual library is in perl-base, and libperl5.* depends on that; I believe that this is to avoid excessive dependency complexity in an Essential package.
<penguin42> is there a mailing list admin around? I've got a user asking for a mail to be removed from mail-archive.com's archive of ayatana@lists.lp - it looks like I helped him a few months back (can't remember how I helped him) - I think he's actually sent this message via a 'contact this team' via lp, but not entirely sure
<Laney> you want #launchpad, but i doubt there is anything that can be done this side.
<Nafallo> penguin42: ehrm. you'd need an admin for everyone caching that list in the world + google to get it removed. might be better to have the user not send mails he regrets :-)
<penguin42> Nafallo: I agree, but mail-archive.com's FAQ says that they can remove things given the approval of the list-admin and he's trying to go down that route (although the links to the ayatana admins from mail-archive.com seem broken) - I suspect I helped him on \ubuntu=bugs a while ago when he first asked
<Nafallo> wow
<penguin42> is there a 'correct' contact for the admin of that list he should contact?
<Nafallo> *shrugs* likely an RT to the list-masters.
<Nafallo> rt/AT/ubuntu.com
<Nafallo> iirc
<penguin42> ok, thanks I'll ask him to do that
<Nafallo> if nothing else, they can likely point him further in a direction.
<Laney> it's not an ubuntu list, but a launchpad one.
<penguin42> nod - I don't even think it was a particularly messy mistake
<penguin42> Laney: So what would you suggest?
<Laney> contact #launchpad or the administrators of that particular team
<Nafallo> Laney: same admins...
<Nafallo> Laney: the ubuntu.com just means it's a community question.
<Nafallo> *shrugs*
<Laney> Nafallo: the administrators of the team in Launchpad
<Nafallo> *shrugs*
<penguin42> the maintainer of Ayatana in lp seems to be 'Registry Administrators'
<Laney> I think it got renamed to unity-design https://launchpad.net/~unity-design
<penguin42> yeh, which might be why the mail-archive.com link is broken
<penguin42> right, I've told him to try the rtq address and if that fails to try the contact-this-team that I followed from the ayatana address a few links; he's got a chance of getting to some one
<penguin42> rt@
<penguin42> heck, I wish synergy wouldn't screw key mappings....
<Laney> he probably shouldn't make further public postings linking to it ...
<penguin42> yes, indeed
<tomreyn> is there a way to delete the cached SSO information used by software-center?
<tumbleweed> tomreyn: I would assume it's in the gnome keyring
<tomreyn> tumbleweed: it's there, but this doesn't seem to be the only place.
<SpamapS> cjwatson: ok, given that libperl.so.5.14 would be in the perl-base package, and nagios-plugins-basic -> ucf -> debconf -pre-depends-> perl-base .. shouldn't perl-base have been configured (and thus, ldcache updated) and prevented bug #989788 ? I'm thinking it might be a dpkg bug
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 989788 in perl (Ubuntu) "package nagios-plugins-basic 1.4.15-5ubuntu3 failed to install/upgrade: ErrorMessage: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 127" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/989788
<dobey> ScottK: cool. will try to find some time to poke at it again soon
<amarunowski> hey guys, i'm making some lee-way with animating my desktop background, i got the system to stop using nautilus as an overlay, and i'm now looking into conky, so see how it draws directly to the desktop background. could anybody give me a hint as to which Ubuntu app is responsible for actually drawing the desktop background image?
<tumbleweed> SpamapS: congrats! re https://lists.debian.org/debian-newmaint/2012/04/msg00032.html
<Laney> \o/
<Laney> now The Wait Begins
<mlankhorst> o.O.. ppa bugging? Version older than that in the archive. 1.5.3-0ubuntu1~ppa1~oneiric2+pulse17 <= 1.5.3-0ubuntu1~ppa1~precise2+pulse17
<mlankhorst> sigh suppose ill create a second staging ppa then
<jussi> hi all, would it be possible to introduce colours into the apt output? so when you go to update/upgrade, packaged to be install come in green, remove red etc?
<ScottK> jussi: That's something that should be done/not done in Debian IMO.  It's not something Ubuntu should carry a long term diff for.
#ubuntu-devel 2012-04-29
<SpamapS> tumbleweed: thanks!
<gaspa> anyone here ever faced transitions to pyGI with telepathy ?
<gaspa> is pygi transition tracked somewhere?
<hyperair> what's the name of the icon used for the +/- buttons of the spinbutton?
<Monotoko> hey guys.. just reported a bug (991373) and it looks pretty easy to fix if I can find out where firefox is launched in the ubiquity package... does anyone have any pointers for finding it?
<stgraber> Monotoko: I think that bug was already reported and triaged, let me have a quick look
<xnox> bug 991373
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 991373 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Ubiquity always attempts to open a new Firefox process" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/991373
<Monotoko> that's my bug.. :P
<stgraber> bug 446679
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 446679 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Release Notes can't be opened when Firefox is already running." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/446679
<Monotoko> ahh that looks about right
<Monotoko> still no fix though, it should be a pretty easy one, right?
<stgraber> not really actually, ubiquity justs uses the gtk hook for the link, but the problem is that ubiquity itself doesn't run as the same user as firefox
<Monotoko> not quite sure if it's the C or the python that launches the FF process
<stgraber> that's probably the source of the problem
<Monotoko> ahhhh
<Monotoko> il leave it then :P
<Monotoko> anyway! Gonna reboot out of live and into my fresh install... see you on the other side :)
<stgraber> Monotoko: the place you'd want to look for a fix is  on_link_clicked in ubi-language.py (line 350)
<Monotoko> ty stgraber
<Monotoko> ahhh I see... it's just doing a sensible browser open
<bcuraboy> guys,i'm trying to install ubuntu 12.04 on a pc using the iso file from ubuntu and the usb disk creator that comes with ubuntu 12.04.but at some point the installations stucks.
<bcuraboy> what could be wrong?
<melodie_> hi
<melodie_> I would like to know where is the best place to recommand a program to be packaged ? This is about Openbox menus, and the program openbox-menu, which I have been using for years in other distros. I use Openbox only as DE. here is openbox-menu main site:
<melodie_> http://code.google.com/p/mimarchlinux/wiki/OpenBoxMenu
<melodie_> and home site: http://mimasgpc.free.fr/openbox-menu_en.html
<micahg> melodie_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
<melodie_> thanks micahg
<melodie_> I would be glad to learn packaging but haven't found time yet (too much to learn ! ^^)
<xnox> melodie_: the first section on that page says 'how to request a new package to be added to ubuntu'
<melodie_> xnox, I am reading here now : https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.searchtext=openbox-menu&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=NEW&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITH_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=INCOMPLETE_WITHOUT_RESPONSE&field.status%3Alist=CONFIRMED&field.status%3Alist=TRIAGED&field.status%3Alist=INPROGRESS&field.status%3Alist=FIXCOMMITTED&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch=&field.has_no_package=
<melodie_> I doubt it has already been requested but.. never know
<abhinavmehta> what is this error..?
<abhinavmehta> E: dpkg was interrupted, you must manually run 'sudo dpkg --configure -a' to correct the problem.
<infinity> abhinavmehta: It's exactly as it sounds.  dpkg was interrupted (power outage, something broke, you hit Ctrl-C, etc), and you need to run the command it told you to recover to a sane state. :P
<abhinavmehta> infinity: its a EC2-node, and was handled by a scriptâ¦so interruption could be a less-probable reasonâ¦.I'm interested more in how/why this happenedâ¦and less to solving the issue.
<abhinavmehta> I mean, less to fix the issueâ¦coz I want to change my script rather than fixing it otherwise.
<infinity> abhinavmehta: Well, the reason is always the same.  Something interrupted dpkg halfway through an install.  How you managed to do that to yourself is way beyond the scope of this channel. ;)
<abhinavmehta> infinity: hmm, you're correctâ¦.the only input I was needing here was the reasonâ¦and that I got, that it's a interruption.
<abhinavmehta> infinity: thnx infinity :)
<melodie_> thanks, and good night/evening/morning...
<AaronMT> What do you have to do to get an invite to #ubuntu+1
<arand> Wait until the channel opens again.
<arand> Alternatively produce an original photo of a Quetzal and sacrifice five sheets of aubergine paper to sabfdl.
<AaronMT> Iv'e already given the pink egg and the purple jade monkey
#ubuntu-devel 2013-04-22
 * lamont wonders where his launcher went
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> ScottK: I replied to the wl bug with some details, and subscribed so that I'll see your response immediately
<geser> good morning
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> hey dholbach
<dholbach> hey pitti
<dholbach> pitti, I was near your home town (or at least where you used to live before) over the weekend :)
<dholbach> it was a very nice trip :)
<dholbach> how are you doing?
<pitti> dholbach: ah, nice! where did you go exactly?
<pitti> dholbach: I'm quite fine, thanks! had a nice weekend (although fairly rainy)
<dholbach> pitti, hiking in the area around Bad Schandau :)
<pitti> sehr schoen
<g0uZ> [22/04/2013 09:30] <xnox> g0uZ: pinging slangasek on #ubuntu-devel irc channel might be better. Or email ubuntu-devel-discus mailing list. // slangasek, there ?
<mlankhorst> is upgrading to quantal still supported after 12.04.3 ?
<g0uZ> I'm searchinf for a clean solution to have audit support in libpam0 for ubuntu precise 12.04 LTS
<mlankhorst> I'm worried a bit because libdrm is going to have to break, and if upgrading to quantal is still supported we'd need to offer a way to downgrade libdrm to the quantal version before upgrading..
<g0uZ> its related to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pam/+bug/937005
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 937005 in pam (Ubuntu) "pam_tty_audit.so is missing in oneiric/precise" [Undecided,Fix released]
<stgraber> mlankhorst: I think our standard statement is that 12.04 => 12.10 is a supported upgrade path so long as 12.10 is supported, so yeah, I think 12.04.3 => 12.10 should somehow work and not end up giving you packages that don't exist in the target release
<mlankhorst> stgraber: it can work, but libdrm will need to be downgraded
<stgraber> mlankhorst: I guess in general we want upgrades from 12.04+enablement-stack to somehow remove all the enablement bits and then upgrade to whatever is in the target release
<mlankhorst> no, upgrading from enablement stack is unsupported
<mlankhorst> I don't have to worry about that case
<stgraber> hmm, that seems suboptimal... so we're basically telling people installing 12.04.2/12.04.3 that they can't upgrade to anything after that? that sounds kinda wrong to me
<mlankhorst> they can upgrade to the next lts, that has already been decided
<mlankhorst> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libdrm/+bug/1171340
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1171340 in libdrm (Ubuntu) "Please update dh-exec, llvm-3.2 and libdrm for lts-raring" [Undecided,New]
<mlankhorst> is what I'm worried about
<maxb> ooi, and semi-related, is it technically supported to upgrade from N->O->P after O EOLs?
<stgraber> mlankhorst: am I looking at the wrong PPA? the one I'm looking at as the same version of libdrm as quantal, so wouldn't require a downgrade (so long as you make sure to use lower packaging version numbers)
<stgraber> maxb: no
<stgraber> maxb: it's still likely to work though (you may have to change to old-releases.ubuntu.com depending on how quick we are to archive the series)
<mlankhorst> stgraber: you're looking at the right ppa, and that version was already causing issues..
<stgraber> mlankhorst: ah, so you're planning on moving to the raring version of it then?
<mlankhorst> stgraber: it's required for the lts-raring stack, yes
<diwic> pitti, "ImportError: No module named apport" <- has something been renamed recently in apport?
<maxb> I suppose there's the possibility of 2.4.39-0ubuntu1~really2.4.43ubuntu1, but ugh
<mlankhorst> maxb: that would be ineffective if that x-updates ppa was installed
<stgraber> mlankhorst: and why can't we do the usual trick to copy that raring libdrm backport under a different name? (sorry, as you may have noticed I didn't look much into the implementation of that stuff since when we first specced it at UDS)
<mlankhorst> and since the steam instructions still contain that, it's going to be a support nightmare
<mlankhorst> stgraber: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lightdm/+bug/1086345
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1086345 in libdrm (Ubuntu Precise) "Quantal-LTS-stack: Showing low-resolution screen on shutdown/reboot" [Critical,Fix released]
 * maxb wonders how evil a no-change SRU to quantal to help the numbers sequence right would be
<mlankhorst> not that evil
<mlankhorst> but some might have xorg-edgers which will disturb things too
<stgraber> mlankhorst: right... so we're indeed left with two options there, either change the dist-upgrader to allow downgrading when moving to quantal and potentially regressing the system (who knows what other bugs got fixed by the new version) or SRU the raring version to quantal and then to precise
<stgraber> my assumption being that you already need to support people using the quantal enablement stack on precise and who will have the raring libdrm, so having the same combo in one more series shouldn't be too much pain
<mlankhorst> true
<mlankhorst> and upgrading libdrm is generally not a pain, only thing causing some issues was nouveau soname bump, but that only affects precise builds of xserver/ddx-nouveau/mesa, and has already been dealt with
<stgraber> ok, so I'd recommend talking to the SRU team about pushing the raring version to both quantal and precise. You'll obviously need serious testing but I guess you already have that anyway ;) then the TB will have to grant a one time MRE for the quantal upload, but I'm happy to do that.
<mlankhorst> sure
<mlankhorst> fortunately libdrm is quite boring, the api is mostly a c wrapper around kernel syscalls, so we haven't had to deal with many bugs there :)
<diwic> pitti, hmm, or is it rather so that all packages installing apport hooks need to (runtime) depend on python-apport ?
<pitti> diwic: what did you do to get this error?
<pitti> diwic: might also be python-apport vs. python3-apport ?
<diwic> pitti, I made a dkms package (with my own framework), which had an error in it. When I tried to install it, the build failed, and then this error came up
<pitti> the apport module name has never changed
<mlankhorst> infinity: ping?
<diwic> pitti, but it turned out python-apport was not installed
<pitti> diwic: right, it's not supposed to; we install python3-apport
<pitti> and stuff is supposed to use python3
<pitti> perhaps there's some script in dkms which hasn't been moved to py3 yet
<infinity> mlankhorst: Sup?
<mlankhorst> see discussion above :) I had to talk with the sru team about backporting libdrm from raring to quantal and precise
<infinity> mlankhorst: Renamed source and binaries, or updating the current packages?
<mlankhorst> updating
<mlankhorst> renaming has led to problems before, and is quite impossible
<infinity> mlankhorst: Yeah, I recalled that, which was why I asked about the intent. :)
<infinity> mlankhorst: I have no problems in theory with backporting libdrm, so long as you test heavily that it doesn't break 3.2.x and 3.5.x kernels.
<infinity> (Which it shouldn't, AFAIK, but best to get solid statistics)
<mlankhorst> that's kernel drm, libdrm is the userspace abi
<diwic> pitti, hmm, okay, I'm trying to look...
<infinity> mlankhorst: Yes, but libdrm talks to kernel drm syscalls.
<infinity> mlankhorst: But it should be all backward compat unless someone effed up, so..
<diwic> pitti, if anything starts with #!/usr/bin/python, that means python2, right?
<mlankhorst> yeah :)
<pitti> diwic: right
<infinity> mlankhorst: I have no problems with it, just want to see seriously heavy testing.
<mlankhorst> sure
<pitti> diwic: that either needs to be converted to py3, or depend on python-apport
<infinity> mlankhorst: Have there been any drastic packaging changes, or just upstream bits?
<mlankhorst> actually 2.4.39 -> 2.4.43 hasn't seen much change, was digging through changelog
<infinity> mlankhorst: Good, good.  That's comforting.
<mlankhorst> mostly things like minor bugfixes, and adding support for new hardware
<mlankhorst> and some radeon SI tiling changes, but SI support wasn't in quantal or precise
<infinity> mlankhorst: Alright.  That's all quite comforting.  Go ahead and prep the SRUs and toss 'em in the queue.
<mlankhorst> thanks
<infinity> -0ubuntu0.1 and -0ubuntu0.1.1 or something.  Or throw some 12.xx in there.  Whatever.
<mlankhorst> I'll do the former form. :)
<mlankhorst> stgraber: do you want a formal application to TB for libdrm?
<stgraber> mlankhorst: nope, I'll just add the exception to the wiki
<mlankhorst> ok thanks :)
<stgraber> mlankhorst: done
<mlankhorst> stgraber: what about dh-exec? It requires a newer version to build llvm-3.2 succesfully
<stgraber> mlankhorst: so you'd backport 0.6?
<mlankhorst> if possible :)
<stgraber> ok, 0.5 basically changes nothing, looking at the 0.6 diff now
<stgraber> sounds safe to me. I'll add that to the MRE
<stgraber> I guess you could have worked around this by renamming the .install in the other source, but that'd just be working around a bug, so we may as well fix it
<stgraber> I'm not even sure you'd need an MRE for that one as all the changes from 0.4 are trivial to test, but I'll add it anyway so it's less confusing to the SRU team :)
<mlankhorst> oh 0.3 is enough
<mlankhorst> but the version in precise is 0.2, which is definitely too old :)
<stgraber> ah so you don't need to update quantal then, just precise?
<mlankhorst> yeah
<stgraber> one problem though is that dh-exec in precise is in universe, so you won't be able to build-dep on that
<mlankhorst> since llvm-3.2 seems to require it, I fear it will have to be pulled into main then :S
<stgraber> well, you could just do the same thing as dh-exec directly in debian/rules
<Mirv> slangasek: FYI I pushed a test build of the (Qt4) qtwebkit-source 2.3.1 in to qt5-beta-proper PPA. if it goes fine, I'll contact Kubuntu people about it.
<mlankhorst> I don't see where it's using dh_exec though..
<mlankhorst> maybe it could simply be dropped entirely
<stgraber> that would make things much simpler ;)
<mlankhorst> I only see it as build-dep, weird..
<mlankhorst> seems to build fine without after I removed dh-exec on my system, I'll do a build in my ppa to confirm.
<cjwatson> seb128: should friends-identica (+ accounts-plugin-identica) be seeded, or dropped to universe?
<cjwatson> It's not recommended by friends-dispatcher, unlike friends-{facebook,twitter}
<seb128> cjwatson, I'm not sure, let's check with Ken when he gets online (shouldn't be in too long)
<cjwatson> OK
<mlankhorst> stgraber: ok mre for dh-exec can be removed, llvm builds just fine without dh-exec :)
<stgraber> mlankhorst: good
<ScottK> pitti: Thanks.
<mlankhorst> ogasawara: I'm going to do the same arch support for x with lts-raring, libdrm I'll update for all archs, but everything else including llvm-3.2 will only build for amd64 or i386.
<ogasawara> mlankhorst: ack
<mlankhorst> I'm just finishing up on a test build, I believe it should be possible to land the lts-raring x stack any time, depending on a sru admin willing to review it. :-)
<ogasawara> mlankhorst: I don't think there is any hurry at the moment (12.04.3 isn't till August).  but we should probably start to think about staging both the lts-raring x and kernel packages in a PPA.
<mlankhorst> yeah
<ogasawara> mlankhorst: maybe we can sync about it next week at the sprint
<mlankhorst> I can't make it, sadly
<ogasawara> mlankhorst: boooo :(
<mlankhorst> but we could use https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-x-swat/+archive/r-lts-backport again, wouldn't be hard.
<ogasawara> mlankhorst: works for me, I'll coordinate with my team
<mlankhorst> it should be a lot easier now at least, I only need the libdrm sru done and then I should be ready for uploading everything :)
<ogasawara> mlankhorst: and actually now that I check, tim's already been uploading our raring kernel to the r-lt-backport PPA
<mlankhorst> ah good
<mlankhorst> infinity: can you accept libdrm? :)
<infinity> mlankhorst: I can.  But will I?
<ogra_> mlankhorst, now ... if you were coming to the sprint you could bribe him
<mlankhorst> so that just means I can't bribe ;)
<stgraber> ogra_: maybe you can order some voucher for the Trappist, then you don't need to be there in person ;)
<ogra_> haha
<infinity> I approve of this plan.
<ScottK> That or convince someone who is present to provide the bribe.
<ogra_> proxybribing ....
<mlankhorst> but then it wouldn't be me bribing, it would be me ordering a bribe
<infinity> The route is less important than the packet getting there.
<mlankhorst> how can you be sure it's really my bribe then
<infinity> You could sign it.
<ScottK> Some variant on the RFC 5518 VBR protocol could probably handle it.
<ScottK> Just bribes instead of email.
<mterry> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 12.10 released | Archive: Frozen for Final Release | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of hardy -> quantal | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: mterry
<mlankhorst> I think having a verifiable trace about a bribe would defeat the purpose of said bribe
<xnox> how would I crash ext4 filesystem such that next mount would require a journal replay? is there a way to toggle such a flag in the ext4 superblock?
<ogra_> dd some crap into it while its not mounted ?
<xnox> ogra_: any suggestions at resonable amounts of "crap" to dd and offsets? =)))))
<ogra_> not really ... but thats what i would try ...
<ogra_> just dont overwrite the superblock :)
<nemo> I wonder if umount -fi would freak it out
<nemo> (while it was doing writes)
<xnox> nemo: sounds more interesting. Let me try scripting something here around that =)
<nemo> xnox: you know. if it is in a VM, you could just power it off while it is doing writes
<nemo> probably a better real world sim anyway
<nemo> well. you could do it on physical too, but ew
<ogra_> heh, yeah, just pull the power  of the disk
<nemo> ogra_: hm. yanking a flash drive probably less damaging
<nemo> xnox: ooh. yeah. journaled ext4 parition on a thumb drive, yank that?
<mlankhorst> where's the fun in that ;)
<dunkel2> -j unity3d
<nemo> heck. writing to it over USB1 would make yanking it while writing really easy :)
<nemo> well. I guess just using /dev/urandom would work too
<smoser> slangasek, ping
<smoser> or jodh
<jodh> smoser: hi
<smoser> i'm looking / hoping for something on bug 1124384 or bug 1103881
<ubottu> bug 1124384 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "reload-configuration can confuse upstart" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1124384
<ubottu> bug 1103881 in upstart (Ubuntu) "cloud-final is never executed if upstart is upgraded during initialization of the image " [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1103881
<smoser> if this upgrade issue isn't fixed, we're going to see people do really stupid things like suggested here:
<smoser> https://codereview.appspot.com/8648047/
<smoser> (ie, specifically handle upgrade on 13.04 differently then anywhere else)
<jodh> smoser: working on it as fast as I can :)
<jodh> smoser: any update from the kernel team on the fix for the original problem (bug 882147)?
<ubottu> bug 882147 in coreutils (Ubuntu) "overlayfs does not implement inotify interfaces correctly" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/882147
<smoser> jodh, well, that is only half the problem. and i doubt it will fixed any time in near future. overlayfs has lots of shortcomings.
<smoser> the larger issue is upgrade of upstart loses state.
<smoser> the only real solution i have for that is to hold upstart.
<jodh> smoser: the bug has been around for a long time seemingly as nobody has ever tried to reload whilst booting. It's a ref-counting issue, but somewhat delicate.
<smoser> it is not present in 12.10
<jodh> smoser: using your lxc testcase the behaviour is seen in 12.10.
<smoser> i can avoid 'reload-configuration' , and have disabled that code in cloud-init 12.10
<smoser> er... in 13.03
<smoser> er... in 13.04
<smoser> so we don't 'reload-configuration' now when an upstart job is written.
<smoser> but i can't avoid a potential upgrade to upstart.
<smoser> i assumed that i'd be impossible/unlikely to fix 'apt-get upgrade upstart' without fixing 'initctl reload-configuration'
<smoser> as i assumed that the former is "heavier" than the latter.
<xnox> smoser: are you allowed to "reboot"? write the new jobs out, reboot "for real" and clean-up / finish initialisation.
<xnox> smoser: another possibility is to step down run-levels until it's safe to reload configuration, and step up again, at which point a reboot would be cleaner.
<smoser> xnox, i dont want to reboot.
<xnox> ack.
<smoser> i'm thinking right now of holding upstart
<smoser> and un-holding later.
<smoser> but i really dont want to expose such sillyness to juju (or anyone else using ubuntu).
<smoser> ie, i really do not want code like that in juju.
<smoser> jodh, you have feelings on the above ? my suggestion is to hold upstart prior to cloud-init initialized upgrade, and then unhold it in "final" (rc.local level).
<smoser> and to continue as we're doing right now, not reload-configuration on addition of an upstart job.
<jodh> smoser: slightly confused - this bug isn't related to stateful re-exec - it's just a "reload whilst jobs and event are in-flight" issue.
<smoser> jodh, 2 bugs.
<smoser> bug 1103881 is a result of stateful reexec (as a result of upgrade)
<ubottu> bug 1103881 in upstart (Ubuntu) "cloud-final is never executed if upstart is upgraded during initialization of the image " [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1103881
<smoser> bug 1124384 is 'reload-configuration' confuses upstart.
<ubottu> bug 1124384 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "reload-configuration can confuse upstart" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1124384
<smoser> i had assumed that reload-configuration was a subset of stateful reexec.
<jodh> smoser: they are completely different.
<ScottK> pitti: Replied in the bcmwl/jockey bug.  Please let me know what you think.
<smoser> ok. then i suggest that 1103881 is significantly more critical.
<jodh> smoser: so, if holding + no reload can be made to work for you, yes I'd do that for now until we can fix these issues.
<smoser> jodh, i can do that. the only problem is that that works around the issue for a very small percentage of ubuntu users.
<smoser> do you have a feeling as to how bad this is ? at what points is a upgrade of upstart safe?
<smoser> or will all users lose state the first time we SRU upstart to 13.04
<mgz> just as a note, juju does not restart machines as part of the boot
<mgz> so, if there's any upstart upgrade on top of the 13.04 release image that will break like this, we need some kind of solution that doesn't involve manual interventions
<jodh> smoser: your scenario is the only upgrade issue I'm aware of.
<smoser> jodh, but what is that scenario?
<smoser> afaik it is "user runs apt-get upgrade"
<smoser> jodh, do you know the scope of the problem? such that i could reduce my work around to that? or possibly you could add a work around into upstart
<smoser> something like "can't upgrade self now, add a task to do it later"
<cjwatson> Given that we know the area of upstart code involved in this failure, I think it would be more appropriate to focus on fixing it properly in an early SRU than in spending time on hacky workarounds
<smoser> cjwatson, i had generally accepted that, and assumed it would get fixed.
<smoser> but given the choice of "work around it in cloud-init" and "let juju, heat, puppet, chef, salt, insert-service-orchestration-tool-here", i'd rather do it in cloud-init than all of those. and rather do it in upstart than cloud-init.
<smoser> it seems that at least some people understand the scope of the problem. i'd like to have such information so i can try to work around.
<smoser> i'm not trying to be a jerk. i'm rying to come up with a solution so as to avoid juju having to know about this.
<bdmurray> tjaalton: are you planning on working on the sru for bug 1095052?
<slangasek> smoser: like cjwatson, I think it's counterproductive here to focus on a workaround when the correct fix is in progress.
<ubottu> bug 1095052 in gnutls26 (Ubuntu Precise) "Client certificate authentication fails" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1095052
<smoser> slangasek, i'm not following.
<smoser> are you suggesting that cloud-init not try to work around? or upstart not try to work around?
<smoser> how about juju ?
<smoser> having zero workaround in place (that would then have to be backed out, possibly languishing well beyond their necessity) is clearly the best case scenario. but doing that means juju and cloud-init are broken anytime there is an upstart upgrade.
<smoser> if i'm told "there will be no SRUs of upstart to 13.04 that do not fix this problem, and fix it in-place", then thats acceptable.
<smoser> i realize now that the hold of upstart is insufficient as i'd have to dpkg-hold libc6 and all other dependencies also. :-(
<seb128> cjwatson, oh, btw, kenvandine says that friends-identica and accounts-plugin-identica should go to universe
<cjwatson> seb128,kenvandine: Righto, thanks - done
<seb128> cjwatson, thanks
<kenvandine> cjwatson, thanks
<tjaalton> bdmurray: yeah, about to upload it after a test build
<bdmurray> tjaalton: cool, thanks
<tjaalton> bdmurray: built fine, uploaded
<slangasek> smoser: things are already broken on upstart upgrade right now, and as has been noted, this is not a new bug; the timeline for the proper fix in upstart here should be measured in days, not weeks; and yes, there aren't going to be other SRUs of upstart into 13.04 prior to this fix landing
<mterry> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 12.10 released | Archive: Frozen for Final Release | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of hardy -> quantal | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<ScottK> doko: The handbrake update that you sync'ed from experimental (a month ago) is depwait due to missing libav bits.  Should we just remove it from -proposed or is there some other solution?
<cjwatson> The plan was to move it to s-proposed once that's possible
<cjwatson> It'll be fine in S once we do the libav9 transition
<cjwatson> And it's not vital that -proposed be empty for release - we should just understand everything in it
<ScottK> It'll never be buildable in raring though.
<cjwatson> Yeah, but we can delete it out of raring once we've moved it to S, no?
<ScottK> OK.  Makes sense.
<cjwatson> Daviey,zul: Should cinder-backup, quantum-lbaas-agent, and quantum-plugin-midonet be moved to universe, or should they be seeded?
<cjwatson> Those are the last three (I moved python-pybabel to universe, since it's a transitional package)
<zul> cjwatson: seeded please
<cjwatson> OK.  Could you do that somewhere appropriate?
<zul> sure
<cjwatson> Thanks.
<zul> cjwatson:  as in the server seed?
<Daviey> zul: platform not cd please.
<zul> Daviey:  ack
<cjwatson> That's unlikely to be appropriate.  The server seed is automatically installed on every server installation.
<cjwatson> That> the server seed I mean
<Daviey> zul: supported-server, lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/platform.raring
<Daviey> err
<Daviey> supported-misc-servers
<Daviey> next cycle, we should probably bust that out into a dedicated openstack seed file.
<tjaalton> slangasek: hey, is the new plymouth job good enough for raring?
<slangasek> tjaalton: yes, I think so - we're in SRU territory at this point, however
<tjaalton> slangasek: right, sure
<slangasek> tjaalton: so this is less urgent than some other stuff that's going on - but if you could fix up the bug info to get it on track for SRU, that would help
<tjaalton> slangasek: yep I'll do that tomorrow and upload to -proposed(?)
<tjaalton> same for lightdm
<slangasek> tjaalton: sound sgreat
<tjaalton> I'll add some other *dm's too
<Gundarr> I have one question.  It is quick and requires the expertise knowledge of our hallowed Ubuntu dev's.  It is not a question asking for support.  I just want to know:  Does the Linux 3.5.x kernel and the "xserver-xorg-video-radeon-lts-quantal" software packages drop support for the legacy AMD FGLRX proprietary graphics driver (FGLRX version 8.960)?  I'm trying to make an informed decision before I perform a potentially ris
<Gundarr> ky 'apt-get' action.
<Gundarr> .............................?
<cjwatson> IRC is asynchronous; it is expected to need to wait perhaps some time
<cjwatson> But you might try #ubuntu-kernel or #ubuntu-x (I'd suggest picking one rather than crossposting) as more specialist channels
<mlankhorst> for the record, I believe it does..
<slangasek> bryce: are you still able to reproduce bug #1080701?
<ubottu> bug 1080701 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "After 'Preparing to install Ubuntu' screen, raring installation hangs" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1080701
<bryce> slangasek, I haven't seen it so far this year
<jtaylor> I had it when I tried to install raring a few weeks back, though I don'T have more to add than already is in the bug report
<jtaylor> I could try it again if you need some specific information
<slangasek> bryce: hmm, alrighty
<slangasek> jtaylor: well, we need someone who can actively reproduce it, to work with the QA team to turn it into a reproducible test case
<slangasek> jtaylor: so if you can still reproduce it, I guess plars would like to have info about your disk layout (partition table, etc)
<plars> jtaylor: what kind of system was this on?
<jtaylor> its like most other reports, lots of partitions, mix of real, lvm and one of them is windows
<jtaylor> + an external ntfs and ext4, which caused issues in the past, but unplugging them did not help this time
<slangasek> jtaylor: the devil is likely in the details here... if we could get an exact partition table, plus enough info to set up a matching set of filesystems, that would probably go a long way
<lifeless> cjwatson: how much of the start of each disk did you need for my grub-fails-to-recognise-raid6+lvm bug ?
<jtaylor> let me download a fresh iso and check if I can actually still reproduce it
<slangasek> jtaylor: thanks very much
<plars> jtaylor: and did it at least get to the popup asking if you wanted to unmount? or did you not even mount any of those before trying to continue the install? That bit seems to be mixed in the bug
<jtaylor> I get it with nothing mounted
<jtaylor> when I mounted the stuff I got the umount dialog
<jtaylor> but still hang
<plars> ok, some said they reproduced it by mounting one of the drives, I even tried doing that and holding a file open, but the unmount works fine for me
<jtaylor> seems like I can still reproduce it
<xnox> jtaylor: can you dd the whole hard-drive somewhere to preserve the reproducer? =))) is it a VM?
<jtaylor> no its my regular system
<xnox> jtaylor: is your main system 64 or 32 bit, how are you booting 64-bios/64-uefi/64-secureboot/32-bit images? via cd or usb?
<jtaylor> 64 bit, I think msdos partition table, no uefi (to my knowledge) usb 64 bit image
<xnox> jtaylor: what else is installed? are all partitions / filesystems clean and fsck reports nothing? Do you have obscure filesystems, left-over lvm metadata?
<jtaylor> I didn't fsck them all in a long time
<jtaylor> how do I check for leftover lvm metadata?
<xnox> jtaylor: well vgscan -ay && vgs
<xnox> and maybe it will print something.
<jtaylor> no nothing
<xnox> jtaylor: would you be able to follow this http://paste.ubuntu.com/5593864/ and collect /var/log/syslog & /var/log/partman
<jtaylor> hm whenI opened gparted I got a message that it found a invalid gpt on sdb
<xnox> jtaylor: that's ok. our cdimages have broken gpt table on them.
<xnox> (known bug opened against cdimage)
<xnox> bug 1062737
<ubottu> bug 1062737 in libisofs (Ubuntu) "hybrid images do not include a valid GPT" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1062737
<jtaylor> xnox: will starting ubiquity with --debug be enough?
<jtaylor> not sure how I boot the image with debut-ubiquity
<tonyyarusso> I take it the odds of a non-critical merge request being reviewed anytime until after the 25th are pretty much zilch, huh?
<xnox> jtaylor: --debug & debug-ubiquity is the same.
<xnox> tonyyarusso: depends on the bugs it fixes, if it's a leave package it can still get in. Or any bugs can go in as 0day SRU.
<jtaylor> ok whats the best way to send you the logs?
<jtaylor> paste.ubuntu?
<xnox> jtaylor: paste.ubuntu.com is great =)
<tonyyarusso> xnox: Not expecting it to get into this release at all frankly - just a question of whether anyone has time to review it.  It's a fairly trivial improvement to update-notifier.  (Attached to Bug #1167621)
<ubottu> bug 1167621 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "apt_check.py can't be used as a module" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1167621
<xnox> tonyyarusso: there is apt/dpkg nagios plugin out of the box on debian & ubuntu systems that also works with icinga and check_mk.
<xnox> tonyyarusso: or are you trying to improve it? also look into python-apt & aptdaemon both of which have api and provide middle & higher level apis.
<jtaylor> xnox: syslog http://paste.ubuntu.com/5593912/
<jtaylor> xnox: partman http://paste.ubuntu.com/5593917
<tonyyarusso> xnox: Well, this started from finding a shortcoming in the nagios plugin stemming from a faulty assumption about the repository structure, then in the process of trying to figure out the best alternate approach found this.  :)
<jtaylor> xnox: installer/debug  http://paste.ubuntu.com/5593919
<xnox> Apr 22 21:44:38 ubuntu ubiquity: mount: unknown filesystem type 'LVM2_member'
<jtaylor> anything else you need?
<xnox> hmmm....
<tonyyarusso> xnox: (The nagios plugin looks at whether a package came from -security, but -security gets mirrored to -updates, so after the first couple hours the security update detection breaks.)
<xnox> also your ubiquity/d-i connection got lost, as there are loads of "Apr 22 21:42:01 ubuntu ubiquity: Use of uninitialized value in concatenation (.) or string at /usr/share/perl5/Debconf/DbDriver/File.pm line 44." quite early on.
<xnox> jtaylor: it would be better to have syslog with "/bin/partman" edited to have "set -x" as a second line and only go past prepare step in ubiquity after that is in-place.
<jtaylor> k
<xnox> tonyyarusso: better to use launchpad api for queriying that. But I see your point.
<xnox> tonyyarusso: can you open a bug report against nagios / nagios-plugins saying that security updates check is broken?
<jtaylor> xnox: syslog relevant part  http://paste.ubuntu.com/5593942
<tonyyarusso> xnox: Sure - getting to that.  Figured I'd start with the more responsive upstream first.
<jtaylor> I'll put -x in the initial thing too
<tonyyarusso> xnox: Looks like someone beat me to it.  Bug #1031680
<ubottu> bug 1031680 in nagios-plugins (Ubuntu) "check_apt always report 0 critical updates" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1031680
<xnox> tonyyarusso: well, I can recommend to use landscape =) it reports critical updates correctly. But yeah, it's serious bug, I'll try to look into fixing it, thanks for flagging it up.
<tonyyarusso> xnox: np :)
<xnox> jtaylor: hmm... what comes after/before the last line in that syslog? can you compress and send all of it to me?
<jtaylor> I'm just trying to track where ita ctually stops by adding -x everywhere ._.
<jtaylor> it goes to hang on an infifo
<jtaylor> but the problematic lvm partition seems to be my lvm-swap partition
<jtaylor> I wonder if it works when I delete it
<xnox> jtaylor: can you please
<xnox> jtaylor: get me the tarball of /var/lib/partman/devices ?
<xnox> as is right now?
<jtaylor> before the echo or after?
<jtaylor> the partition before it hangs is a ext4 partition with debian on it
<jtaylor> could also be that one
<xnox> jtaylor: shouldn't matter. Did echo cause it to progress by the say?
<xnox> s/say/way/
<jtaylor> the syslog progressed a bit
<jtaylor> it hang on an cat in the outfifo
<xnox> jtaylor: send the the syslog (hopefully timestamps should indicate when you echoed it"
<xnox> jtaylor: and the /var/lib/partman/devices  (that's just the state of all connected hard-drives as viewed by the the installer)
<jtaylor> after the echo it printed  -d lvm-root (precise) and now it hangs on a infifo
<xnox> can you $ apt-get install pastebinit and pastebinit the whole thing?
<xnox> (the thing being syslog =) )
<jtaylor> its 12MB now :/
<jtaylor> how can I reset it?
<jtaylor> been restartint ubiquity a few times so there is lots of garbage in it
<xnox> jtaylor: cat /var/log/syslog | gzip -9 > /tmp/syslog.gz
<xnox> jtaylor: but then you need to mount somtething to copy it across, or like email to my-irc-nick @ubuntu.com
<xnox> jtaylor: or run ubuntu-bug ubiquity
<xnox> and see if that files a bug with the whole-lot =)
<xnox> jtaylor: it should print a url which you can paste / copy /retype here. (upto the end of UUID) or pastebinit the url =)
<jtaylor> I'm just trying a few things first
<xnox> ok.
<achernya> Hi -- I've been trying to find documentation on what sort of security support universe and multiverse are supposed to get. (I understand it's volunteer MOTUs and best-effort). Is it 3 or 5 years for LTS?
<xnox> achernya: better contact security team at #ubuntu-hardened. But in general 0-security support is guaranteed, but security uploads on volunteer basis are accepted as long as -security pocket is open, which is 5 years for precise. So contributions are welcome.
<xnox> for -universe and -multiverse that is.
<jdstrand> achernya: tbh, it is up to the people doing the contributing. if the security team is given good, well tested patches, we'll sponsor them
<xnox> achernya: main and restricted receive guaranteed 5 years LTS security support on precise.
<achernya> xnonx, jdstrand: Thanks, that's what I expected.
<jdstrand> in practice, people tend to not contribute to an older LTS. eg, people give us more patches for 12.04 than 10.04, but that isn't policy-- that is just what people tend to do
<xnox> jtaylor: I'm off to sleep. If you have anything more posted to the bug report bug 1080701
<ubottu> bug 1080701 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Raring) "After 'Preparing to install Ubuntu' screen, raring installation hangs" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1080701
<jtaylor> xnox: it hangs after closing 15reuse or 25replace, randomly, syslog: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5594150/
<jtaylor> closing dialog in 15/25
<jtaylor> as its random its possibly some kind of race
<jtaylor> < offline back tomorrow evening
#ubuntu-devel 2013-04-23
<mwhudson> are there netinstall images for installing raring on highbank around anywhere?
<mwhudson> http://ports.ubuntu.com/dists/raring/main/installer-armhf/current/images/generic/netboot/ looks promising
<vanhoof> mwhudson: ack
<mwhudson> rarara why do netinstalls have to take so long
<StevenK> Because you're in NZ? :-P
<mwhudson> the server i'm installing isn't
<StevenK> ... details
<vanhoof> mwhudson: only remaining oddity is https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1171582
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1171582 in linux (Ubuntu) "[highbank] hvc0 getty causes random hangs" [High,Incomplete]
<vanhoof> mwhudson: but yeah installs are good now w/ the flash-kernel update today
<[reed]> how was one nominate a bug as a potential raring blocker? (or if not blocker, fix ASAP)
<[reed]> s/was/does/
<RAOF> [reed]: What bug?
<[reed]> RAOF: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pidgin/+bug/1108056 -- summary/title sucks, but basically, Pidgin doesn't work at all on 13.04 (just hangs)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1108056 in pidgin (Ubuntu) "fetching URLs freezes pidgin" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<[reed]> there's a debdiff already posted with a fix
<RAOF> That's not a raring blocker.
<[reed]> it's seeded in lubuntu
<RAOF> Raring blockers at this point are going to be on the order of âInserting the CD causes the Old Ones to rise and tentacles to emerge from my laptopâ
<RAOF> That looks like it's a fine category for an SRU, though, which only requires someone to upload that debdiff.
<StevenK> RAOF: The reporters aren't going to be any position to file that one ...
<RAOF> StevenK: THAT'S THE BEAUTY OF IT!
<StevenK> Haha
<[reed]> RAOF: perhaps you'd like to upload it? :P
<dtchen> [reed]: uploaded, but someone will need to reformat the bug description section according to SRU guidelines
<dtchen> ...which I'll do in 12 hours if someone doesn't beat me to it within 12 hours.
<[reed]> dtchen: thanks!
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> ScottK: you mean merely installing bcmwl-kernel-source makes it work at instant?
<ScottK> pitti: Yes.
<pitti> ScottK: perhaps the package does the unbind/rebind itself these days, then jockey wouldn't need to any more indeed
 * pitti checks
<ScottK> sudo apt-get install bcmwl-kernel-source and wait while it does it's magic is enough.
<pitti> ah, so it does
<pitti> I guess we did that for the migration to ubuntu-drivers-common, but never adjusted the old jockey handler
<ScottK> I attempted to make it not do the bind/unbind, but didn't seem to be able to manage it.
<pitti> ScottK: I'll upload a fix now
<ScottK> pitti: Great.  Thanks.
<pitti> ScottK: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/jockey/ubuntu/revision/648, if you want to apply it inline on the live system and try
<pitti> I was checking whether we should completely skip the KernelModuleHandler.enable() bits, but we need some of them
<pitti> so that's the simplest fix which only suppresses the rebinding
<ScottK> I already tried that particular change and it still did the rebind somewhere.
<pitti> uh?
<ScottK> That's what I said.
<pitti> right, I interpreted "I attempted to make it not do the bind/unbind" as "I didn't know how to do that"
<pitti> we use the very same approach in the nvidia handler
<ScottK> I'm assuming that the segfault in the bug can only come from an attempt to unbind/rebind.
<pitti> correct
<pitti> unless the driver internally calls any of those on loading/unloading
<pitti> it seems the wl driver doesn't really like to be unloaded, too
<ScottK> Except if it did that, you'd think just installing the package would cause a failure.
<pitti> i. e. if you try loading/unloading it twice in the same session it might do the same?
<pitti> booting a live session, applying that change, and enabling wl in jockey should not do any module unloading or rebinding
<ScottK> Let me try it again.
<pitti> ScottK: also, it's important to set self._do_rebind = False after the KernelModuleHandler.__init__ call
<ScottK> I already started it.
<ScottK> And it died.
<pitti> so I suppose the rmmodding/modprobing in jockey is bad as well, as the postinst duplicates it
 * pitti does V2
<ScottK> You may be able to make V2 faster than my system boots.
<pitti> ScottK: can I give you a proposed broadcom_wl.py file on people.u.c. for testing?
<ScottK> I don't have network on the system, so a diff is easier.
<ScottK> Hopefully it's not large.
<ScottK> If I have to, I can copy it onto my USB stick and boot the live system again.
<pitti> it's not that large
<pitti> ScottK: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5594596/
<pitti> ScottK: quite hackish, but *shrug*
<ScottK> Should be the last cycle for jockey ...
<pitti> ah, is Kubuntu moving to u-d-common?
<pitti> it shouldn't even be too hard to port the jockey UI to use u-d-common
<ScottK> Running
<ScottK> I hope so.  We had some python3/KCM integration issues that blocked us most of the cycle.
<ScottK> Resolved now, but too late to do anything in raring.
<cjwatson> lifeless: oh, not sure, call it a megabyte maybe?
<ScottK> pitti: Still crapped out.
<pitti> ScottK: u-d-common works with py2 as well, BTW
<pitti> ScottK: urgh, what now; exact same dmesg?
<ScottK> Yes.  Exact same.
<ScottK> Interesting.  I don't think we realized that.
<pitti> ScottK: or could it perhaps be that jockey-backend was already running when you applied the change?
<ScottK> Not unless it runs automatically on boot.
<pitti> ScottK: could you check "ps aux|grep jockey" after a boot? something during live boot might ask it for something on d-bus perhaps
<ScottK> Sure.
<ScottK> Let me restart
<pitti> thanks
<ScottK> That's it.  It's running already.
<ScottK> Sigh.
<ScottK> pitti: Which fix to you want me to retry?
<pitti> ScottK: the latter is more comprehensive
<pitti> ScottK: it also avoids duplicate unloading/reloading, which it seems we should better avoid
<ScottK> ok
<pitti> ScottK: you can just kill it, it'll respawn from dbus
<pitti> (it also times out after 10 mins or so)
<ScottK> Running
<ScottK> pitti: worked.
<pitti> \o/
<pitti> thanks for your patience
<ScottK> I'll be glad to review/accept that one.
<pitti> uploaded
<ScottK> In a way it's better I didn't think to check if it was running already because I'd have stopped at the less correct solution.
<ScottK> Excellent.
<mlankhorst> morning
<dholbach> asac, happy birthday! :)
<dholbach> good morning
<mitya57> Mirv: did you see my qtbase merge? I've just rebased it on 5.0.2+dfsg1-3
<asac> dholbach: :)
<asac> thx
<mitya57> Mirv: and I have yet another Vcs fields fix for you: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5595113/
<Mirv> mitya57: looks excellent, thanks. I was hesitating another resync because we shuffled with the some options, but it should be fine now
<Mirv> mitya57: I'll also take that qttools one
<mitya57> Mirv: we'll be able to sync all qt5 packages (except qtbase) when S opens, right?
<mitya57> or do we have any delta?
<cjwatson> mitya57: thanks for spotting and syncing perl 5.14.2-21 last week
<cjwatson> I noticed that when upgrading a wheezy system this morning and went to check whether we'd picked it up for raring ...
<Mirv> mitya57: there is some delta like the one srgb patch in qtdeclarative (loicm should be looking at that) and so on, but in general a sync when S opens (preserving the small delta where it exists) sounds really good
<Mirv> mitya57: but for many modules a straight-forward sync would be all that is needed
<pitti> lool: I guess we are going to re-target https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1303-converged-network-stack to squishy after this week?
<mitya57> cjwatson: I always look at upgrade logs of my sid system and file SRs for ubuntu-relevant fixes :)
<pitti> lool: or do you want to create a BP copy for the squishy bits, to keep the old raring spec for WI trackign/historical purposes?
<mitya57> Mirv: thanks
<Mirv> mitya57: thanks to you
<stgraber> jodh: having any luck with that upstart bug?
<lool> pitti: I'd suggest marking the WIs as postponed for r and copy-pasting them as TODO for S
<pitti> lool: so into a new BP then?
<lool> pitti: yeah; does that make sense?
<pitti> lool: sure
<jodh> stgraber: not really - if you've got spare cycles and want to get involved, let me know.
<stgraber> jodh: starting an ISO install and then I can take a look.
<dholbach> lool, rsalveti, sforshee: ready for in 15m?
<mlankhorst> ooh fun, 3.5 kernel won't boot on 32-bits for me :>
<mlankhorst> oh right, probably need pae kernel
<lool> dholbach: yup
<leighman> wrt https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/workrave/+bug/1154647 the problem translation lines are coming from .po files - can these just be changed or does it happen through launchpad or something?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1154647 in workrave (Ubuntu) "workrave does not appear in dash due to 2 multiline Comments in workrave.desktop (Comment[pl] & Comment[ru]" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<leighman> *no idea how translation works*
<pitti> cjwatson, Laney: I see my systemd SRU was already accepted into raring (bug 1171691); was that intended, or is our migration blocker broken?
<ubottu> bug 1171691 in systemd (Ubuntu Raring) "Removing libpam-systemd (without purge) breaks system" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1171691
<pitti> i. e. we need to respin now?
<cjwatson> pitti: we needed to respin anyway for bug 1080701
<ubottu> bug 1080701 in partman-auto (Ubuntu Raring) "After 'Preparing to install Ubuntu' screen, raring installation hangs" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1080701
<cjwatson> pitti: and infinity and I reckoned that the consequences of your bug were serious enough that they were worth riding along
<cjwatson> so I manually unblocked systemd
<cjwatson> or actually Adam did
<pitti> cjwatson: thanks for confirming
<stgraber> smoser: ping
<smoser> stgraber, here
<stgraber> smoser: hey, so I'm poking at the cloud-init bugs. How do I reset cloud-init so that it re-runs apt-get update + apt-get dist-upgrade on reboot?
<smoser> rm -Rf /var/lib/cloud will do it.
<smoser> there are specific files you could remove for that specific action, or you could change that action to run every boot via config.
<smoser> but i often do the 'rm -Rf /var/lib/cloud && rm -Rf /var/log/cloud-init* && reboot'
<stgraber> smoser: then I need to manually copy the cloud config file right?
<smoser> ?
<stgraber> the userdata file
<smoser> stgraber, you were using nocloud i guess?
<smoser> ah. or you were doing lxc (which uses nocloud)
<smoser> yes, you do have to avoid rm'ing the /var/lib/cloud/data/seed path.
<smoser> (that is somewhat annoying)
<stgraber> ok, good, looks like it's working
<stgraber> smoser: ok, so the good news is that we confirmed that the two bugs are actually the same (stateful re-exec and reload-configuration), now we just need to find a fix, make sure we don't break anything else with it and see whether we can land that stuff
<stgraber> jodh is now working on a potential fix, we've got a new test added to upstart to test the fix and I've got the lxc environment setup to test the specific case as it happens for cloud-init
<mpt> ev, the top "colord" error on the leaderboard (#41) is marked as unsuccessfully fixed because it's "still" occurring in 0.1.16-2ubuntu0.1. But the bug report says it was fixed in 0.1.21-1ubuntu2. Is that a version comparison bug, or what?
<tedg> jodh, Is there a library to emit upstart events?  Or does everyone just shell out to initctl?
<cjwatson> you can just prod dbus
<tedg> Yeah, that's what I was thinking.  But curious if someone already wrapped that :-)
<cjwatson> /com/ubuntu/Upstart com.ubuntu.Upstart0_6 EmitEvent
<cjwatson> (the versioning there is a bit of a warning sign I guess)
<tedg> In general, we've tried to always wrap the DBus interfaces in libraries just because the versioning is more well defined with libs.
<cjwatson> True
<stgraber> hallyn: for bug 1171866 can't we say "Container isn't started" or similar if we can't connect to the abstract socket?
<ubottu> bug 1171866 in lxc (Ubuntu) "lxc-stop ignores invalid container names" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1171866
<stgraber> that'd cover the case of a non-existing container at least
<stgraber> or maybe: if we can't connect to the socket and the container isn't defined => container doesn't exist
<stgraber> if we can't connect to the socket and the container is defined => container isn't started
<bdmurray> barry: could you have a look at bug 1051935 again? somebody has a couple of branches for it - maybe something for S
<ubottu> bug 1051935 in python-apt (Ubuntu) "Fails with SystemError when too many files are open" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1051935
<barry> bdmurray: no time right now, but it's in a browser tab ;)
<bdmurray> barry: sounds good, thanks
<mitya57> pitti: is there any chance you'll merge my calibre changes in time for raring?
<hallyn> stgraber: what does it mean for the container to be defined?
<pitti> mitya57: ah, you updated that, indeed; sorry for the delay!
<pitti> mitya57: what is the preinst snippet about? (removing /usr/share/calibre/viewer/mathjax)
<mitya57> pitti: dpkg doesn't like when one is replacing a directory with a symlink, so we need to remove it before installing the new version
<pitti> mitya57: oh, I just saw the corresponding line in debian/rules
<stgraber> hallyn: directory exists in the config dir (/var/lib/lxc)
<hallyn> stgraber: i'm not entirely opposed though.
<mitya57> "! -h" checks (I hope) that it's argument is not a symlink
<hallyn> it's just the conatiner not being 'defined' is not technically an error
<hallyn> so we'd be introducing different behavior for 'permanent' contaienrs and 'temporary' ones on lxc-stop when already stopped
<mitya57> pitti: I forgot to mention that use_system_markdown.patch only touches the file that is used during build, other files are modified using a sed call in d/rules
<pitti> mitya57: right, thanks
<pitti> mitya57: yeah, I was going to ask -- shouldn't the sed cover the bit what the patch does, too?
<stgraber> hallyn: well, I think in general we should be returning non-zero and show an error when commands are expecting to do something against a running container and that container clearly isn't running (because the abstract socket doesn't exist)
<mitya57> pitti: sed is called after the package is built, and touches already installed files
<pitti> mitya57: so that particular piece of code is run during build then
<mitya57> yes
<pitti> alright, thanks!
<hallyn> stgraber: and that's what i do in the api.  but we'd be changing behavior.  but soy ou're saying always return -1 if already stopped - i'm ok with that, if noone on the list objects
<pitti> mitya57: if you want, you can already upload that to Ubuntu
<pitti> mitya57: I'll do a new Debian upload with a newer upstream version
<lamont> flattened my raring laptop (long story), and after reinstall, all it finds in the sound category is "Dummy Output"...  thoughts on how to get sound back?
<pitti> (but I guess that's too late for the freeze now)
<stgraber> hallyn: right and I'd expect freeze/unfreeze to do that too. I believe we already do something like that in lxc-shutdown
<stgraber> hallyn: (would be great if we could make that kind of thing consistent for 1.0 ;))
<mitya57> pitti: another note: now it should crash when opening a .rar file, probably my suggestion in MP comment will fix that, but it's not tested
<hallyn> lxc-shutdown is newer which is why i felt free to use sensible behavior :)
<mitya57> pitti: bundled unrar-nonfree is a release-critical bug (which is never late), but I want someone else to test it before upload
<pitti> mitya57: hm, that's unfortunate; I was hoping we can eventually use the unrar program if it is installed, but not a biggie for the release indeed
<mitya57> (I never used calibre, so for example I don't know how it uses markdown/mathjax/etc)
<mitya57> pitti: my change makes it not build the python extension for unrar
<pitti> mitya57: ok; I need to run away for a bit, but I'll get to it ASAP (first thing in the morning)
<pitti> mitya57: yes, I know; I mean for a longer-term fix
<mitya57> the *only* way to avoid that is to move it to contrib/multiverse
<mitya57> pitti: if you have any comments/questions, please comment on the mp
<hallyn> stgraber: go ahead and mark it confirmed if you like.  I don't know if we should then just make lxc_stop.c use the API while we're at it...
<stgraber> hallyn: probably wouldn't be a bad idea, I'd kind of like all of those tools use the API instead of duplicating the code
<stgraber> hallyn: I'll update the meeting once I'm done with a meeting
<hallyn> but when will you update teh bug :)
<hallyn> j/k
<stgraber> hallyn: ;)
<jtaylor> cjwatson: has the installer fix already been verified?
<cjwatson> jtaylor: not yet
<cjwatson> Well, not with the actual images
<jtaylor> should I try it on a image from yesterday (patching it myself) or wait until we have a ready image?
<jtaylor> oh well I guess I can do both brb
<jtaylor> cjwatson: works thx
<jtaylor> funnily I tried to play with those descriptors yesterday, but only removed them from mount instead of adding them to grub-mount :)
<jtaylor> I should probably read up on what that actually does :)
<cjwatson> there should be a ready image now
<jtaylor> the current daily?
<cjwatson> yeah
<cjwatson> in the mount case it only matters if mount happens to spawn a fuse process, i.e. ntfs-3g in practice
<cjwatson> current> Ubuntu desktop 20130423.1
<cjwatson> in the grub-mount case, it's always fuse
<jtaylor> I'll load it and try it later
<cjwatson> the problem is that that involves a process in the background and any fds from the parent that aren't close-on-exec (which they typically aren't from shell) get inherited
<cjwatson> 3 is debconf, 6/7 are parted_server
<cjwatson> if we need to read all output from an fd, that blocks until all processes that have the other end open for writing have closed it
<cjwatson> hence this deadlock
<cjwatson> once I noticed the structure of the problem I recognised it because I've fixed it before :)
<cjwatson> [5~/wg 34
<cjwatson> oops
<roaksoax> stgraber: howdy! So I have a couple fixes i'd like to get in in MAAS, but these are not required for the CD, so they would be for 0-day SRU. Should I upload now and specify they are for this purpose so they remain in the queue and are taken care of once we release raring (the fixes are mainly improvements that fix issues in corner cases that we found when running automated tests)
<stgraber> roaksoax: yep, just upload. We'll have someone that has both release and SRU hats do the review and accept it into raring-proposed. Then if we need to respin we may decide to include it anyway, otherwise it's going as 0-day SRU.
<roaksoax> stgraber: ok awesome. TBH, don't think this requires a re-spin because doesn't really break maas or make it unusable, we just want to make sure that these corner cases don't affect users in the long run.
<stgraber> roaksoax: yep, that's why we usually keep those around as things to include if we need to respin for something else (our "nice to have" list)
<roaksoax> stgraber: oh ok!! cool :)
<warren-hill> Install of  13.03 from this iso http://releases.ubuntu.com/13.04/ubuntu-13.04-beta2-desktop-i386.iso  gksu is not installed.  Is this a bug or a deliberate change?
<warren-hill> If not a bug why was gksu removed
<ogra_> could you avoid spanning that question across all ubuntu channels ?
<ogra_> oh
<ogra_> sorry, i see jtaylor pointed you here
<sarnold> warren-hill: as I understand, pkexec is more flexible and The Preferred Mechanism
<jtaylor> I though it was a valid question
<ogra_> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/raring-desktop-i386.manifest shows gksu is installed
<warren-hill> I'm concerned gksu is very useful gksu gedit path_to_file is much easier than pkexec
<ogra_> same for amd64
<ogra_> sarnold, it is and it would be good to drop gksu ... but there are issues with pkexec ... you need to export a lot of stuff
<warren-hill> The beta I installed last night does not have gksu
<ogra_> well, the current image surely does ... as you can see in the manifest
<warren-hill> I'm happy to tell people to use pkexec but there are a lot of questions on Ask Ubuntu or Launchpad which ask users to use gksu and to be honest I don't know to use it.
<jtaylor> the beta manifest lists it too
<jtaylor> warren-hill: can you try a current daily image?
<ogra_> yeah, would be news that it was dropped
 * ogra_ was actually looking into dropping it at the beginning of the cycle ... since it breaks touch input completely
<ogra_> but we cant yet
<warren-hill> I't will take some time but I can update my test machine and try   Where do I find the latest
<ogra_> and nobody but me was pushing for it ... so it would be surprising if it wasnt there anymore
<ogra_> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily-live/current/
<vibhav> I almost forgot we had a release tomorrow
 * vibhav puts on pary hat
<warren-hill> downloading now I'll install on my test machine and get back to you when done.  May be tomorrow now
<vibhav> These 6 months were so quick :)
<warren-hill> I've just installed Raring i386 from today's daily build.  Not real hardware Virtual box on 12.04.2 host.  Still no gksu
<warren-hill> If I type gksu in a terminal it tells me not found and how to install it "sudo apt-get install gksu"
<dobey> file a bug? though not sure why gksu needs to be installed by default
<warren-hill> It's the easiest way to run say for example "gksu gedit path_to_file" to edit a config file.
<warren-hill> Which package should I file the bug against?
<dobey> ubuntu-desktop i guess
<sarnold> funny, I've always thought 'sudo vim path_to_file' was easiest; it's also two fewer characters _and_ an editor I'm familiar with :)
<dobey> which i think is ubuntu-meta for the source package
<dobey> sarnold: and it doesn't open a separate window to ask for you passwordâ¦
<sarnold> dobey: with all the fun of changing focus..
<dobey> sarnold: twice!
<warren-hill> Like you I am happy with command line but many users on Launchpad and Ask Ubuntu are scared of it
<sarnold> hehe :)
<sbeattie> IIRC, pkexec(1) is the preferred replacement for gksu/gksudo, as they (again, IIRC) do really ugly screen-scrapey things.
<sarnold> sbeattie: oh god, that sounds horrible
<sbeattie> mdeslaur is the expert on that.
<sarnold> if that's the way those are implemented, he'd be in one heck of a stabby mood if I asked... seems best to avoid that.
<dobey> warren-hill: i would generally avoid telling anytong to "edit this file as root" if they aren't comfortable enough with using sudo and vim to do it
<dobey> warren-hill: because, they probably shouldn't be doing it
<warren-hill> Most users on Launchpad and Ask Ubuntu would not have a clue with vim.  I have got some to s
<warren-hill> use nano
<warren-hill> similarly people use "gksu nautilus" to change ownership, permissions etc.
<lamont> who is the victim of the day for asking why raring (fresh install) doesn't find my built-in speakers for output, but an upgrade from the dark ages to raring does?
<ogra_> warren-hill, well, http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/raring/ubuntu/20130423.1/livecd-20130423.1-amd64.out clearly shows gksu is being installed
<roaksoax> stgraber: i should upload to raring-proposed right?
<ogra_> (same ofr i386)
<ogra_> *for
<sarnold> ogra_: is that specific to the livecd images though?
 * Laney boots a daily from today
<stgraber> roaksoax: doesn't matter, raring is always being rewritten to raring-proposed
<ogra_> sarnold, server has no X .... so no gksu
<dobey> ogra_: is that the live image, or the actual install?
<stgraber> roaksoax: since we opened raring you can technically upload to "precise" and it'll end up in "precise-proposed". I know some have actually been doing that as they find the changelog entries prettier :)
<ogra_> dobey, thats the squashfs that gets copied by ubiquity
<dobey> ogra_: ubiquty depends on gksu for some reason, which would explain that. but it's not installed to the system, so gksu wouldn't be either.
<warren-hill> All I did was install to a fresh system, noticed some packages were removed as part of set up but did not see all names.  Then in a terminal typed "gksu" and it is not recognised I'm using i386
<dobey> ubiquity-frontend-gksu depends on gksu, that is
<dobey> err
<dobey> -frontend-gtk
<ogra_> ah, that could be it
<ogra_> we dropped all gksu deps in the seeds
<Laney> right, that's the only reason it's installed here
<roaksoax> stgraber: hehe :)
<Laney> so ... if you want to be able to use gksu, install it
<dobey> though i suppose it's a bug that ubiquity requires gksu
<dobey> that should probably get fixed, but i guess not a good time for that to happen in 13.04
<warren-hill> So should I file a bug or get all the documentation pages such as this one https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo updated to tell people to install it?
<warren-hill> Just installed gksu on my test system -- it works
<ogra_> well, better have the docs say to use sudo instead of gksu
<warren-hill> There is a difference between sudo and gksu and that document specifically advises against using sudo with graphical programs
<warren-hill> I'm not a developer: I just want to make sure we give the best advice on forums and websites
<dobey> sudo su -c $program
<ogra_> or sudo -i
<dobey> yeah, or that
<jtaylor> so the advice to use gksu is outdated?
 * jtaylor was also told don't use gksu for guis or bad things will happen
<jtaylor> *sudo
<ogra_> sudo -i will work
<warren-hill> So I should advise that while gksu can be installed in 13.03 its no longer preferred and to use sudo i or sudo su -c $program
<ogra_> and plain sudo as well if you know what you are doing
<ogra_> (i.e. no such insanities like sudo nautilus)
<dobey> jtaylor: eh. depends on the app. but the ones that write data under ~/ can cause problems by changing ownership of files to root in some cases
<ogra_> warren-hill, right
<warren-hill> OK I'll update this question http://askubuntu.com/questions/284306/why-is-gksu-no-longer-installed-by-default and pass the info onto the documentation team
<infinity> The Xauthority and ~ arguments are still valid, AFAIK.
<infinity> Honestly, telling people to run GUI apps as root was always the wrong answer, though.
<ogra_> infinity, yeah its more for people doing sudo nautilus ...
<jcastro> people will continue to do so until Nautilus supports policykit
<dobey> infinity: indeed
<jcastro> or whatever the new thing is
<dobey> jcastro: or we stop shipping nautilus? :)
<ogra_> lol
<roaksoax> stgraber: uploaded! thanks!
<roaksoax> for the input
<warren-hill> guys, have a quick look at my answer herehttp://askubuntu.com/a/284717/107450 just to make sure you are happy before I pass this information onto the other forums and the web page guys.  Let me know if you agree with what I have said
<dobey> warren-hill: i'd remove the bit about "sudo su -c" and just use "sudo -i $program" instead, rather than telling them how to use the shell as root
<warren-hill> OK done.  Thanks for your help I'll pass this on to the Ubuntu documentation team, Ubuntu Forum and Launchpad
#ubuntu-devel 2013-04-24
<TheMuso> 6666666666666666666666666666666@pilot in
<TheMuso> gah
<TheMuso> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 12.10 released | Archive: Frozen for Final Release | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of hardy -> quantal | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: TheMuso
<ScottK> pitti: I've now double verified the jockey fix works off of the rebuilt image.  Thanks again.
<Logan_> james_w: Hey, are you around?
<TheMuso> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 12.10 released | Archive: Frozen for Final Release | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of hardy -> quantal | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<ScottK> TheMuso: Did the mumble patch get sent to Debian?
<TheMuso> ScottK: Indeed it did, debian bug 706053:
<ubottu> Debian bug 706053 in mumble "mumble: Register mumble:// URL handler mimetype" [Wishlist,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/706053
<ScottK> TheMuso: Thanks.
<TheMuso> ScottK: np
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> ScottK: splendid!
<dholbach> good morning
<xnox> ogra_: Laney dobey : yeah, ubiquity has a few wrappers and currently gksudo is the default. We were considering to add pkexec support, didn't realise ubiquity is the only one holding gksudo now.
<ogra_> pkexec will work fine, but you need to export debus stuff etc
<ogra_> *dbus
<xnox> sorry that it didn't make it for raring.
<pitti> and ubuntu-nexus7-installer apparently (but that's not shipped)
<xnox> yeah, we have dbus in ubiqutiy already ;-) nothing works without it.
<ogra_> thats in universe i hope
<ogra_> shouldnt be in main at all
<pitti> but aside from this, it's great that we got rid of it (mostly)
<pitti> I hear it doesn't work on touch devices at all (aside from being two different UIs)
<infinity> ogra_: It's not in the archive at all.
<infinity> ogra_: So, even better.
<pitti> right, I was just trying to purge it from my system :)
<ogra_> phew
<darkxst> infinity, any idea what is going on here?
<darkxst> Rejected:
<darkxst> Orphaned debug packages: udev-udeb-dbgsym 198-0ubuntu12~raring2 (amd64), udev-dbgsym 198-0ubuntu12~raring2 (amd64), systemd-dbgsym 198-0ubuntu12~raring2 (amd64)
<darkxst> (trying to build systemd in a ppa)
<infinity> Which PPA is this?
<infinity> And did you somehow force building dbgsym packages in a PPA that wasn't configured to just do it automatically?
<infinity> pitti: I'm confused by this calibre upload.  It claims to remove "non-free bundled" things.  But there's no new orig, so how can it?
<pitti> infinity: ah, this only removes it from the binaries indeed
<pitti> infinity: in Debian I uploaded a new upstream version with those bits gone from the orig
<pitti> I can upload a new +repack tar if you want
<infinity> pitti: That would be preferable.
<infinity> pitti: Though, if the edubuntu folks aren't willing to respin for it, the point's slightly moot.
<infinity> highvoltage / stgraber: I'm not sure I got a straight answer. :P
<ogra_> why cant you just sync from debian ?
<ogra_> stuck in NEW ?
<infinity> ogra_: New upstream.
<pitti> no, it's in exp
<pitti> but that might stretch the definition of final freeze too much?
<infinity> And I assume pitti's being cautious.
<ogra_> ah
<pitti> I mean, I'm fine with syncing, but I don't want to push it further than necessary
<infinity> pitti: Well, it affects exactly one image, so you can talk highvoltage and stgraber into your experimental upload, or give me the repacked one, or just not worry about it and scream "la la la, I don't see a bug".
<ogra_> yeah, sounded like you would just do the same in both distros ... i didnt get it was a new upstream in debian
<pitti> ok, I'll prepare the +repack one until stgraber/highvoltage answer, and then we can pick any of the three :)
<highvoltage> infinity: ah I thought you said that you already respun?
<infinity> pitti: That works.
<stgraber> infinity: so I guess we can live with a respin, but if we do respin, I'd like the casper fix in there, considering it seems to be hitting us around 50% of the time and it annoys me ;)
<infinity> highvoltage: No, no.  I was debating accepting calibre, which would trigger a respin.
<infinity> stgraber: Well, if I take casper, I'm respinning the world, not just you.
<pitti> I wasn't even aware that calibre was on any image, sorry for the hassle
<infinity> Everything is on the edubuntu DVD.
<highvoltage> ah I see. well, it's a pretty serious bug, but it has low direct user impact. I'm fine either way really.
<pitti> (FTR, there is the trick with copying a package to -updates and only respinning one flavour with that)
<infinity> It's pretty much the whole archive, minus sl and lolcat.
<pitti> *chuckle*
<stgraber> infinity: hehe, it's your bad for getting lolcat in the archive so late ;)
<infinity> ;)
<pitti> stgraber, highvoltage: so, there is no functional bug, but the orig.tar and the deb ship non-free bits in universe
<highvoltage> pitti: correct
<stgraber> infinity: anyway, you're right about casper. I was vaguely hoping we'd find an horrible ubiquity bug so we would need to respin the world and get us that fix in the process, but apparently we haven't found one yet.
<infinity> stgraber: We might still have a last-minute installer upload.  Have faith!
<pitti> there we are, complaining about the *lack* of RC bugs!
<pitti> what a nice problem to have
<stgraber> infinity: considering how often we're finding RC bugs on Wednesday afternoons/evenings I still have faith ;)
<infinity> stgraber: So, regarding calibre, since you're the only image it affects, repack of the current version, or sync of the new upstream from Debian?
<cjwatson> It'd be kind of nice to be able to prepublish early today and have a relaxed day tomorrow :)
<infinity> stgraber: Whatever you prefer, I'll go with.  But I do want to accept it, cause non-free bundling bugs irk me, and I don't want it baked into the release pocket.
<stgraber> infinity: anyway, I'd rather we don't ship something non-free in universe, so yeah, I'm not against the respin, however I just want that one issue dealt with, nothing else.
<stgraber> so that'd be pitti's repacked source and not a new version synced from Debian
<infinity> Check.
<infinity> pitti: Repack it is.
 * pitti rejects his previous upload
<pitti> ok, this looks good: diff -u <(tar tf calibre_0.9.18+dfsg.orig.prev.tar.xz|sort) <(tar tf calibre_0.9.18+dfsg.orig.tar.xz|sort)
<highvoltage> infinity, stgraber: could you poke me when the new image is ready? I'll probably catch it when the notification hits #edubuntu, but still
<infinity> Except the part where that needs a new upstream version.  Like +dfsg2 or something.
<infinity> +dfsger
<infinity> highvoltage: Can do.
<pitti> infinity: yes, I called it calibre_0.9.18+dfsg1.orig.tar.xz now
<infinity> pitti: Aww, I liked dfsger. :)
<pitti> +reallyfree?
<infinity> And when you notice it still has non-free crap in it, you can do +dfsgest.
<pitti> and continue with +superdfsgest, +hyperdfsgest?
<infinity> pitti: You missed duper, but yes.
<Laney> dfsg-me-harder
<darkxst> infinity, gnome3-staging, and it is configured to build debsym's
<infinity> darkxst: URL to the PPA?
<darkxst> infinity, https://launchpad.net/~gnome3-team/+archive/gnome3-staging/
<infinity> darkxst: So, I'm going to politely disagree that that PPA is configured for ddebs.
<infinity> darkxst: Given that no other build in there has produced any.
 * pitti squeezes new calibre through his DSL
<ogra_> the diff looks weird as well
<ogra_> seems to not have any changes but the version bump
<StevenK> pitti: Oooh, which version?
<pitti> StevenK: see above, just a repack of the orig
<pitti> StevenK: I uploaded 0.9.27 to debian experimental last night
<pitti> StevenK: raring has 0.9.18
<StevenK> Oh, bloody hell, there's *more* non-free bits in it?
<infinity> darkxst: Though, it's also fairly clear that you didn't break this.
<darkxst> infinity, it was meant to be configured
<infinity> darkxst: It was recently changed to enable dgbsyms, I guess?
<darkxst> 3-4 weeks ago I guess
<infinity> More like a day or two ago...
<infinity> Given that GDM built on 2013-04-22 didn't build with debug symbols.
<darkxst> infinity, rt ticket #21277 if that helps
<tjaalton> xnox: any luck with the plymouth & lightdm updates? they're in -proposed now too
<xnox> tjaalton: right, hit eod without testing. It booted fine today.
<xnox> will test more, after fixing this RC bug.
<tjaalton> xnox: sure, thanks
<infinity> darkxst: Oh, so the problem is that there's a systemd.ddeb but no systemd.deb.  This doesn't break the archive because of the sketchy way we do ddebs there, but soyuz has a sad about the mismatch.
<infinity> pitti: ^
<pitti> ah, thanks
<darkxst> infinity, pitti is that easy to fix?
<pitti> darkxst: if you add "export NO_PKG_MANGLE=1" to debian/rules, it won't build ddebs
<pitti> that's the easiest workaround I can think of
<darkxst> ok will do that then
<infinity> pitti: If you want to fix that up in PPA versions for the gnome3 folks, and then queue that up for S, that would be nice, mind you.
<infinity> pitti: Cause this'll hit when we finally finish ddebs in soyuz.
<pitti> yeah, I need to think about how to do that properly in pkg-create-dbgsym
<pitti> or we just apply the blacklist to dh_strip as well, which would be a much simpler fix in systemd itself
<pitti> darkxst: in fact, if you just append this to debian/rules it ought to work:
<pitti> override_dh_strip:
<pitti>         dh_strip $(BINARY_BLACKLIST)
<pitti> (leading tab, not spaces)
<darkxst> hmm just uploaded the MANGLE one
<jamespage> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 12.10 released | Archive: Frozen for Final Release | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of hardy -> quantal | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: jamespage
<jamespage> jodh, you've been busy writing dep-8 tests :-)
<rbasak> Does anyone know how apt-get might be trying to fetch changelogs on apt-get upgrade? Is there a configuration option like a hook or something or some kind of third party addon that I'm unaware of? Example: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/138138265/apt-output.txt
<Laney> rbasak: apt-listchanges
<rbasak> Laney: thanks!
<Laney> np
<infinity> That's not listchanges...
<infinity> listchanges doesn't hit the internets, it unpacks the debs.
<stgraber> I've had a couple of people poke me about it telling me that they can't upgrade or install new packages because they're shown the changelog instead and don't know how to proceed from there
<infinity> That might be apt-listbugs?
<infinity> Or whatever that was called.
<rbasak> THis is bug 1169044, which is a complaint about upgrades being interactive. THe two reported problems are debconf prompts for questions apparently already answered, and this. It sounds like a local configuration issue but I wasn't clear on exactly how it might be happening.
<ubottu> bug 1169044 in postfix (Ubuntu) "can't install/upgrade postfix non interactively through apt" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1169044
<infinity> rbasak: Right, so the "I had to close less" thing is apt-listchanges, and local configuation.
<infinity> (dpkg-reconfigure apt-listchanges and he can make it not force a prompt by, say, mailing instead)
<stgraber> infinity: apt-listchanges sure grabs stuff from the internet here
<stgraber> Get:1 Changelog for pastebinit (http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/main/p/pastebinit/pastebinit_1.3-4ubuntu1/changelog) [10.1 kB]
<stgraber> after I installed apt-listchanges on my machine and did an upgrade (well, after downgrading pastebinit as my system was up to date)
<infinity> stgraber: Weird.  It also tears apart debs, so that's curiously weird.
<stgraber> maybe we patched it to stop doing that since we're stripping part of the changelogs?
<Laney> I think it asks apt to get them somehow, which may hit the world wide webnets
<infinity> Maybe.  I don't run it on my laptop, only servers.
<Laney> that not (yet) available ... thing comes from apt, at least
<Laney> seems to be a fallback that we patched into apt-listchanges to use apt-get changelog
<infinity> Laney: That feels a bit silly, but okay.
<stgraber> infinity: I guess that was to make it work for LTS-to-LTS updates, not that anyone sane would really read the whole changlog of all the packages involved in that kind of upgrades ;)
<jodh> jamespage: indeed - now to get them accepted ;)
<jamespage> jodh, I'm defer until S opens if thats OK with you
<jodh> jamespage: sure
<jodh> rbasak: could this be bug 788519?
<ubottu> bug 788519 in apt-listchanges (Ubuntu) "behaviour regression due to apt-listchanges" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/788519
<cjwatson> infinity: We had to make it not rely on tearing apart debs once we changed the packaging toolchain to strip changelogs in debs down to the top ten items or whatever it is.
<rbasak> jodh: looks like it. Thanks!
<jodh> rbasak: np.
<jamespage> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 12.10 released | Archive: Frozen for Final Release | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of hardy -> quantal | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<roadmr> xnox: hello! got a minute to talk about bug 1171815?
<ubottu> bug 1171815 in checkbox (Ubuntu) "maybe need lighter dependencies on the server" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1171815
<xnox> roadmr: not right now. busy with release critical bug atm.
<xnox> roadmr: that bug is not urgent for raring, can discuss post-release.
<roadmr> xnox: oh ok, we'll do it later then. Thanks and good luck with the bug!
<Dr_ST> hi folks
<Dr_ST> I'm trying to build a "static" binary in Ubuntu but fail with the error message ->/usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgcc_s (Ubuntu 12.04.2 LTS)
<Dr_ST> does that ping something to anyone?
<Cas> Hi I am looking for more input on why this Naultilus change requires all application developers to set an env var when using xdg-open just to focus the new window: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/deluge/+bug/1168858
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1168858 in deluge (Ubuntu) "Nautilus window opens behind current window" [Undecided,In progress]
<seb128> Cas, what nautilus change? if it was working before it was by luck, focus stealing prevention is meant to stop random stuff to pop themself on the front
<Cas> if you use xdg-open you expect the window to be focused
<seb128> right, so make xdg-open send the right timestamp
<seb128> so the system knows when you user action happened and can decide if that's the result of an action or some program just trying to steal focus
<Cas> I don't understand the difference
<seb128> Cas, if you do "sleep 10; xdg-open http://www.google.com" on a command line and start typing in gedit, when your browser opens it shouldn't take the focus since that would make what you type go from gedit to your browser and break what you are doing
<seb128> Cas, giving the timestamp allows the system to determine if you the command has been triggered by a real user action (like a click) and when
<seb128> Cas, things should get the focus only if you did the action and nothing since
<seb128> Cas, like if chrome takes 45 seconds to start and you started typing an email during that time it should under your composer
<Cas> ok
<Cas> but that doesn't change the fact that every application using xdg-open will now open nautilus in the background
<Cas> in 13.04
<seb128> Cas, not sure there are so many applications using xdg-open, that's wrong to do from an app
<seb128> toolkits like gtk have proper apis to do that
<Cas> sure but I have read bugs that the default apps are not always the same and xdg-open is preferred
<dobey> Cas: xdg-open, the gtk+/glib API to open a url/file, and whatever qt/kde APIs there are to open a url/file, all basically do the same thing to determine which app to open the file/url in.
<Cas> seb128, what is the problem with adding the env timestamp in xdg-open
<Cas> using system time
<seb128> Cas, not sure if the timestamps from x11 and the one you are using are the same format, and that's wrong because in the "sleep 10; xdg-open ..." case you would steal the focus of somebody typing, where you should not
<seb128> since the time used wouldn't be the one from when the action was done, but enforcing the current time
<Cas> but even if I made a call to xdg-open it would still be timestamped at the call time not the sleep time
<Cas> what I am suggesting is that if the env DESKTOP_STARTUP_ID is not set then use current time in xdg-open
<seb128> right, those wrapper script cases are a bit buggy
<Cas> the problem is that xdg-open is the only way on linux to open the default application without using an api
<Cas> but now users will find nautilus opens behind the terminal when attempting to use it
<seb128> well, non geeky users don't run xdg-open on the command line
<seb128> so it's a limited issue
<Cas> err what
<seb128> we tread users who had their input "stolen" by random apps for users who have to click on something to focus it
<seb128> tread->trade
<dobey> seb128: eh, those cases are buggy regardless. the program is never going to do exactly what the user wants. and if you write a script that does "sleep 10; xdg-open something" you deserve to have your focus stolen
<dobey> the whole timestamp window/startup thing is nothing but a huge race condition
#ubuntu-devel 2013-04-25
<hyperair> hmm, how do i manually report a bug from a .crash file?
<hyperair> i tried running ubuntu-bug on it, but after i checked the checkbox saying send error report and clicked "leave closed", it just put a .upload file in the same directory and didn't do anything.
<kirkland> distro-info --devel is failing, and breaking my build scripts
<kirkland> ubuntu-distro-info: Distribution data outdated.
<kirkland> Please check for an update for distro-info-data.
<kirkland> no update available
<StevenK> kirkland: It's because there is no devel release currently
<StevenK> raring is frozen and marked as such in LP
<ScottK> bdrung: ^^^
<kirkland> StevenK: understood, but usually we've opened the "s" archive by now
<kirkland> StevenK: right?
<kirkland> "sexy"?
<ScottK> kirkland: No, not until after release, although usually we do know the name ...
<StevenK> Right, not until after.
<kirkland> ScottK: okay -- and sabdfl hasn't yet given us our sprawling soliloquy settling such specification?
<ScottK> Nope.
<ScottK> New record.
<kirkland> (that took way to long to even write)
<kirkland> (and that was only 5 s-words)
<kirkland> "I'll take S Words for $200, Alex"
<hyperair> xnox: ping. https://code.launchpad.net/~xnox/usb-creator/udisks2 <-- is this complete?
<pitti> Good morning
<unixpro1970> hi pitti
<dholbach> good morning
<xnox> hyperair: nope. seg faults python interpreter at tear down.
<xnox> kirkland: No Name Yet =)
<hyperair> xnox: damn. :(
<xnox> someone might open up with "No Name Yet" =)))) quite a reference
<seb128> ev, hey
<ev> hi
<seb128> ev, https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/4e7901e5fabda4c7b5f81a3999b7d9d3afc92591
<seb128> ev, do you know why it managed to take a compiz version for that issue?
<seb128> ev, one report has "1:0.9.9~daily13.03.29-0ubuntu1" as version, which is compiz and not unity
<seb128> ev, which makes the issue be red on the bugslist since that version is newer than the unity upload that has the fix
<seb128> ev, https://errors.ubuntu.com/oops/e3d6ec94-aa94-11e2-9ec1-2c768aafd08c is the instance
<seb128> ev, unity is a bit of a special case, because it's compiz which hits the segfault but we use the apport hook to redirect to the right component
<seb128> ev, I'm just surprised e.u.c regrouped issues from difference sources packages (which is leading to the version issue)
 * ev digs
<ev> seb128: looking at source_compiz.py, we only switch over to unity as the binary package in the report if the user selects "yes" in the dialog that asks them if it's a bug in unity
<seb128> ev, hum, no, in case of segfaults we return in the first if case
<seb128>     if "Stacktrace" in report:
<seb128> ...
<seb128>                     report.add_package_info(apport.packaging.get_file_package(words))
<seb128>                     return
<seb128> ev, so we don't ask the question in case of segfaults
<ev> ah right
<seb128> ev, but even if that was buggy, is that normal that identical bugs on different sources are "merged" together?
<seb128> ev, that create the issue with the versions
<seb128> wouldn't it be better to have 2 separate bugs in the tracker, one for the compiz source and one for the unity one?
<ev> seb128: the problems are keyed based on the crash signature or duplicate signature, the package doesn't come into play
<seb128> ev, hum, I see
<seb128> ev, could we have the table of versions be a combo source/version in that case?
<seb128> ev, or do you have an idea on how to avoid having that bug flagged as regression when it's not?
<ev> seb128: yeah, this is definitely worth fixing. I don't mean to suggest that we're operating perfectly in this case.
<ev> creating a bug for this now
<seb128> ev, thanks
<ev> seb128: https://bugs.launchpad.net/daisy/+bug/1172635
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1172635 in Daisy "Error e3d6ec94-aa94-11e2-9ec1-2c768aafd08c doesn't get the right Package field" [Undecided,New]
<seb128> ev, thanks, subscribed
<ev> seb128: cool, thanks. And feel free to grab me at the sprint if you want to talk through that one some more, or have anything else you'd like to see changed
<ev> seb128: it'd be great if you could spare some time that week so I can understand what your high priority items are
<seb128> ev, sure, will do, thanks!
<seb128> ev, for that bug, your suggestion of (package, binary package version) makes sense to me
<ev> awesome
<Laney> oh noes, it's "pull-lp-source is broken" day
 * tumbleweed loves those days
<tumbleweed> esp when we can't fix them
<Laney> tumbleweed: can't we fall back to stable?
<tumbleweed> Laney: you can specify a release...
<Laney> sure
<Laney> rather not have to though - and stable is what you would have got before?
<tumbleweed> no, devel is the default
<Laney> yes, but there is no devel now
<tumbleweed> it doesn't know that there is no devel
<Laney> old devel â current stable
<tumbleweed> it just knows that it doesn't know
<Laney> it knows the info is outdated
<xnox> Laney: to be honest s-series is registered so one should be able to use that.
<Laney> Now it would be two SRUs though
<Laney> Maybe earlier it could have been updated with placeholder data
<xnox> so one should fall back to future maybe and if nothing is published fall back to stable.
<Laney> I don't think you could pull from S-series currently :-)
<Laney> so yeah, even if the data was correct now it would try that probably fail?
<cjwatson> Nothing published in it, indeed
<Nafallo> cjwatson: so... ubuntu-support-status still shows 18m support. that's not intentional, right? (I think you're the right guy for this question, repoint if not)
<stgraber> Nafallo: gah, no, looks like we forgot to fix LP to set Supported: 9m for >=raring
<Nafallo> stgraber: the change is needed in servers, not in the package at least? :-)
<stgraber> Nafallo: my understanding is that LP needs to be updated to set the field the next time it re-generates the indexes
<Nafallo> okidoki :-)
<stgraber> the problem is that the series as already been marked as released, so I guess it's too late for raring
<Laney> But they're not going to be regenerated for raring now?
<Nafallo> oh dear.
 * Nafallo invisions a bunch of support requests that will claim support for 18months :-/
<Laney> Maybe they /could/ be - I don't know how hard that limit is
<Nafallo> bah. get the DBA to change the value on wildberry(?) instead ;-)
<stgraber> we usually don't re-generate the index files for the release pocket after having marked the series stable
<Laney> It's the Packages file
<Nafallo> oh right. it's that part as well...
<Laney> so, fixing LP however that needs to be done, deploying it and then regenerating those
<Laney> or working around it in the software ...
<cjwatson> raring hasn't been marked as released yet
<cjwatson> But the 18m is in LP code
<wgrant> Easy to change
<Laney> quick enough to do today?
<cjwatson> wgrant: *So* glad you're awake
<wgrant> As long as we're OK with regenning the release pocket indices in an hour or so..
<cjwatson> We'd been planning to release in eight minutes :)
<cjwatson> But I guess we're not
<wgrant> cjwatson: StevenK and I are off today, but I'm around.
<cjwatson> Can we cowboy more quickly than an hour?
<wgrant> Sure
<stgraber> cjwatson: ah sorry, I didn't actually check the series status on LP, some people reported pull-lp-source being broken earlier and I just assumed this was because the series was marked stable (without a new devel series existing)
<cjwatson> stgraber: No, that's a "same day of release" thing
<wgrant> A few hours earlier than I expected..
<cjwatson> Now, I also need to arrange for a publication in raring
<cjwatson> Hmm
<cjwatson> Maybe a trivial change-override would be easiest
<wgrant> Or just be careful
<cjwatson> I'm sure I can find a section to change
<cjwatson> Yeah, I know that's available but prefer not to do it at short notice
<wgrant> True
<Laney> stgraber: yeah, that's distro-info-data
<cjwatson> It's just http://paste.ubuntu.com/5600690/ isn't it?  I don't see any relevant tests
<wgrant> cjwatson: That'll change it for non-release pockets of previous series too, won't it?
<Laney> Nafallo: good find(!)
<wgrant> There appear to be no tests.
<cjwatson> Yeah, it would.  Hmm
<stgraber> cjwatson: is that a per-series change? we probably want to make it just >=raring otherwise we'll end up with weird values for SRUs
<stgraber> what wgrant said ;)
<Nafallo> sorry for blocking release...
<wgrant> cjwatson: Let's just add a RaringUbuntuMaintenance
<Nafallo> rather do it now than after the fact though :-)
<cjwatson> Yeah, we'll have to fix it for > raring too, but we can do that at more leisure
<wgrant> Exactly
<stgraber> Nafallo: well, we definitely prefer to find that kind of thing before we released as fixing that one post-release would have been impossible (at least in a "clean" way)
<cjwatson> wgrant: Can I leave this with you to sort out?
<Nafallo> yeah, glad I wasn't 8 minutes later with finding it :-)
<wgrant> cjwatson: I think http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/5600696/ should do it, but I'll check.
<cjwatson> Yeah, looks promising
<cjwatson> Nafallo: Yeah, don't apologise, glad you spotted this now
<cjwatson> I'll let the web team know
<wgrant> cjwatson: Looks fine on DF. I guess we cowboy the new class, rerun cron.germinate (perhaps hacking it to just run over raring and not actually running germinate), then get the release pocket republished?
<cjwatson> We could just let cron.germinate run normally, IMO
<cjwatson> It's quick enough these days
<wgrant> Ah, true, forgot you fixed that.
<wgrant> mawson:/srv/launchpad.net/codelines/current/raring.supported{,2} are the old/new if you want to check
<cjwatson> In fact, if the cowboy is mid-publisher-run, it could catch a normal cron.germinate
<cjwatson> cjwatson@mawson:/srv/launchpad.net/codelines/current$ diff -u <(sed 's/18m$/9m/' raring.supported) raring.supported2
<cjwatson> cjwatson@mawson:/srv/launchpad.net/codelines/current$
<cjwatson> promising
<wgrant> That's the plan
<cjwatson> Of course, the support status in images will be wrong
<cjwatson> I think I'm going to Not Care
<wgrant> Indeed, but that's a bit harder to fix and less important :)
<cjwatson> And if you never connect to the network, then support status is kind of immaterial
<Nafallo> nafallo@wolf:~$ ubuntu-support-status
<Nafallo> Support status summary of 'wolf':
<Nafallo> You have 500 packages (98.0%) supported until January 2014 (9m)
<wgrant> :)
<wgrant> Thanks for confirming
<Nafallo> ^- cjwatson :-)
<Nafallo> yw :-)
<Nafallo> thanks for fixing it so quickly :-)
* cjwatson changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 13.04 released | Archive: frozen | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of hardy -> raring | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<pitti> cjwatson, infinity, release team: congratulations!
<Nafallo> good work guys! :-D
<pitti> so for the first time after a release we don't have the name of the next one
<Laney> slippery series
<xnox> NoNameYet
<ricotz> pitti, right something was missing ;)
<Nafallo> pitti: nonameyet.com is still registered, innit? ;-)
<pitti> slurpy smoothie!
<ricotz> slim snake
<Laney> aaaaanyway
<sladen> infinity: you're early!  (It's no 13:04 UTC)
<Laney> good stuff.
<infinity> sladen: Releasing at version time is a silly and short-lived non-tradition.
<Nafallo> and will fail after 24.10 as well.
<Nafallo> and yeah, we'll still all be here :-P
<sladen> Nafallo: simples.  Just release the day after the release day.  *nods*
<Nafallo> haha
<Nafallo> I'm fine with 24h in a day, thank you very much ;-)
<pitti> lool: FYI, I took the liberty of moving the remaining WIs of https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/client-1303-converged-network-stack to ubuntu-13.05 (please feel free to readjust as you see fit, of course)
<pitti> lool: I left one for me for 13.04, that's the one I'm currently working on
<lool> pitti: all fine; thanks!
<bdrung> ScottK: we need the codename for raring+1
<ScottK> bdrung: Yes, but it seems it should also deal better with the case of "no devel release exists".
<ScottK> Since it happens every cycle.
<bdrung> not every cycle (we used to know the codename before the release)
<bdrung> ScottK: define "it". which tool should behave better without a devel release?
<ScottK> distro-info.
<ScottK> No, there's a period where the devel release if frozen, but the new one doesn't exist yet.
<ScottK> That happens every cycle.
<bdrung> this is impossible. "distro-info --devel" should print the development codename. what should it print if it doesn't know it?
<ogra_> ScottK, we usually had the series up on LP before the release
<ogra_> this is the first cycle we dont
<ogra_> since we didnt get a name early enough
<bdrung> is mark working on the name?
<ogra_> no idea, he is on the road since weeks
<vibhav> Are the supported, lts, etc values in distro-info hardcoded?
<cjwatson> bdrung: yes
<bdrung> vibhav: no, they are calculated based on the date. distro-info has it's own "database" (see distro-info-data)
<mpt> tedg, hi, take a look at the table of contents for <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Networking>. Is that the kind of structure you had in mind?
<tedg> mpt, Yup, thanks!
<mpt> tedg, most of the PC stuff is a couple of years out of date, so disregard that for now. :-)
<tedg> mpt, Yeah, I've been using it as guidance for a feature list, but not the details of it.
<tedg> mpt, I'm curious if anyone uses Bluetooth teathering anymore since most phones have WiFi.
<mpt> No idea :-)
<mlankhorst> I still use usb tethering from time to time, so tethering itself has to work at least..
<tedg> Sure, but I'm guessing most use USB or Wifi.
<tedg> Seems like WiFi is becoming the 2.4GHz protocol of choice.
<Nafallo> wifi can be protected by WPA... not sure what the deal with Bluetooth would be.
<Nafallo> but then again, I tend to get 3G dongles from work places ;-)
<stgraber> tedg: I still use bluetooth tethering as it uses around a tenth of the power as a wifi AP would
<tedg> stgraber, If you're worried about power, why not use USB?
<stgraber> tedg: I do when I remember to bring the cable along with me ;)
<tedg> Heh, okay.
<ogra_> the bluetooth cable ?
<cyphermox> ogra_: :)
 * Nafallo smacks ogra_ gently
<stgraber> tedg: when on the bus/train, I usually like not having to pull cables out of the bottom of my bag just to get connectivity ;)
<tedg> ogra_, It makes your bluetooth faster, I'll sell you one, only $19.99.
 * ogra_ grins
<ogra_> tedg, can you tweet that  ? swww.ismytwitterpasswordsecure.com
<stgraber> I can sell you one that's even better than tedg's because it has gold plated connectors, but that's going to be $99.99
<ogra_> oops
<ogra_> -s
<ogra_> stgraber, oxygen free insulation too ?
<stgraber> sure ;)
<Laney> bdrung: can haz new distro-info-data?
<Laney> tumbleweed: or you
<tumbleweed> Laney: it has a name?
<Laney> yeah
<Laney> I have the csv change - can push if you want?
<tumbleweed> phew
<tumbleweed> please push, I'll be happy to review and upload
<Laney> ok, one minute
<ScottK> bdrung: OK.  Now we have the release name.
<Laney> ScottK: see immediately above
<ScottK> Oh.
<Laney> tumbleweed: done
 * tumbleweed supposses it's too soon to guess a jessie release date...
<ScottK> It's never too soon to guess.  You'll be wrong, but you can always guess.
 * tumbleweed left that bit for now. Busy preparing all the SRUs
<hl2> http://url9.de/BQW
<seb128> roadmr, hey
<roadmr> seb128: hello!
<seb128> roadmr, re. that checkbox bug, my "quite some users" is based on the errors.ubuntu.com stats, it has over an hundred reports in a week
<roadmr> seb128: hm, is there a way to know if they are e.g. kubuntu users? I'm just concerned that I'm unable to reproduce the problem on a vanilla raring install
<seb128> roadmr, nothing out of ubuntu-desktop and ubuntu-gnome-desktop is depending on gstreamer1.0-alsa
<seb128> roadmr, so yes, any user of xubuntu, kubuntu, lubuntu, etc will have the issue
<bdrung> thanks tumbleweed for updating distro-info-data
<roadmr> seb128: oh perfect, that makes it easier to come up with a repro case
<seb128> roadmr, well, the repro is easy, sudo apt-get remove gstreamer1.0-alsa
<roadmr> seb128: oh I tried that and it didn't fail as expected, but I may have been doing things wrong... let me double-check
<tumbleweed> bdrung: np
<roadmr> seb128: yes, I'm an idiot, I was doing it wrong (tm). I'll update the bug with the repro case
<seb128> roadmr, good
<Laney> slangasek: we think we found out where the pxgsettings processes were coming from
<slangasek> Laney: and you will be killing them with fire now? :-)
<Laney> some of them with fire, some maybe a scalpel
<Laney> I think maybe signond's usage could go away too
<Laney> it copies some code from a Qt merge proposal
<slangasek> so the lines on http://reports.qa.ubuntu.com/memory/arch/armhf/ showing 32M of usage on touch... those are the ones where the shell crashed, right? :P
<Laney> oops, that was meant to be #-desktop
<slangasek> Laney: so reducing use of the process is one thing... having a sensible interface to the process is another.  Do you know why this isn't a dbus service?
<Laney> no, seems like it could be
<Laney> it's a weird interface
<vibhav> Will we be writing "saucy" in all our changelogs?
 * vibhav cheers
<ScottK> ev: If I give you the specific IDs, can I get copies of reports to errors.ubuntu.com?
<ev> ScottK: yup
<ev> ScottK: I'm fixing the fact that you can't access them very soon, by the way. We're working through the final parts with Legal.
<ScottK> https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/6c589671ce9751e5bca7a74eff3a21046192b243 https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/bfe073cd44500dbbe762cd163878a096e16b5c46 https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/e1974e755b62066bdbd624110262af4d6e0071b1
<ScottK> Great.
<ScottK> ev: Also, I can con firm that for packages that we don't send the bug reports to bugs.kde.org, the e.u.c reporting is working in Kubuntu 13.04.
<ScottK> (you may recall we discussed this at the last UDS)
<ev> https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/6c589671ce9751e5bca7a74eff3a21046192b243 was unsuccessfully retraced - it'll hopefully be reprocessed soon
<ev> ScottK: excellent!
<ev> same for https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/bfe073cd44500dbbe762cd163878a096e16b5c46
<ev> oddly we don't have a Stacktrace for https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/e1974e755b62066bdbd624110262af4d6e0071b1 - I'll look into this. I've never seen that before.
<ScottK> Fun.
<ev> ScottK: here's the not-retraced version, for whatever it's worth: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5601719/
<ev> for that last one
<ev> presumably you'll want locals and things
<ev> I'll try to find time next week to dig at it
<ev> let me know if you find any other problems you want access to
<ScottK> Thanks.
<ScottK> Can you look if there are any other recent crashes against akonadi 1.9.1-0ubuntu1 that might have been retraced?
<ev> sure
<ev> ScottK: those appear to be the only ones so far
<ScottK> thank for looking
<ev> cjwatson, bdmurray: given that https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-release-upgrader/+bug/1094777 is coming up quite a lot today from people who have not installed the release upgrader from -updates, I'd like to propose that we force an upgrade (with permission) before we run the release upgrader.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1094777 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Can't use c-n-r-gtk to initiate Quantal -> Raring update" [High,Fix released]
<ev> https://errors.ubuntu.com/problem/27a5550c8a96660e9b19630655aa1c613772e29b - confirms this - lots of instances of 0.190.1 for today
<ev> ^ mterry if you have thoughts as well
<ev> so to clarify, you start update-manager, it says there's a new version of Ubuntu available. It then does an apt-get upgrade (with your permission), then downloads and runs the release upgrader.
<mterry> ev, I thought we didn't show the release upgrade if we weren't up-to-date...
<ev> if they didn't have -updates enabled, they'd appear as up-to-date
<ev> but I doubt that many systems have gone and disabled updates
<ev> so perhaps that check is broken
<mterry> ev, the flow may have changed in the move from Update Manger -> Software Updater
<mterry> ev, I had thought we still prioritized updates over upgrades though
<ev> yeah
<mterry> ev, how would we force users to get the update?
<ev> mterry: ensure that -updates is enabled, then trigger an upgrade
<mterry> ev, yeah, but how we would push out an update that did that?
<ev> mterry: if you mean for 12.10, I think we're screwed there
<ev> but we can make this more robust for future versions
<mterry> ev, yeah, OK.  And 13.04 too for any similar problems
<xnox> it all depends on how far in the codepath of the downloaded tarball we get into, if any.
<xnox> maybe we can sneak something in, in the upgrade tarball. But i would have thought that would be done by now, if it was possible.
<xnox> as clearly this problem was known when it was fixed.
<mterry> xnox, we don't get as far as the tarball if I recall correctly
<xnox> mterry: then well no chance....
<xnox> ev: do we know if security is enabled on those machines reporting the error?
<ev> xnox: no, but that might be worth recording in the future
<ev> feel free to file a bug for that
<mterry> I understand that this update is security-level-important if we want users to upgrade, but it's hard to classify in any way as an actual security update
<mterry> Is there precedent for similar updates?
<georgelappies> hi all, is anybody else experiencing 'ugly' non -anti aliased fonts in QtCreater / UbuntuSDK or any Qt5 based apps in Ubuntu 13.04?
<AbsintheSyringe> does anyone have any ideas why my Nautilus won't even start on 13.04?
<AbsintheSyringe> I have/had this same problem on Debian Sid with 3.8.x kernel, but as soon as I would move back to 3.2 (wheezy) it would just go back to normal
<AbsintheSyringe> tried moving back to 3.5.x on 13.04 but that didn't do anything
<AbsintheSyringe> that's the reason I have a feeling it might related to full disk encryption (lvm)
<stokachu> is there a way in upstart when doing a 'start on started <service>' to wait a few second before starting its service? basically there is a couple second delay because of some network activity from the relied on service
<ScottK> It'd be better if the service on which you're depending didn't emit started until it actually was.
<stokachu> ah ok ill read up on the emit section, i briefly glanced over that
<slangasek> stokachu: rather, it's the 'expect' stanza of the depended-on service
<slangasek> ('emits' is informational only)
<stokachu> ok cool, ill read up on that section
<stokachu> slangasek: If your daemon has a "don't daemonize" or "run in the foreground" mode, then it's much simpler to use that and not run with fork following. One issue with that though, is that Upstart will emit the started JOB=yourjob event as soon as it has executed your daemon, which may be before it has had time to listen for incoming connections or fully initialize.
<slangasek> right
<stokachu> is that saying there isn't a good way to wait for the application to be ready for accepting connections?
<stokachu> i see where it emits the start job but in my case that doesn't really mean its ready for processing
<slangasek> sure there is - make the application daemonize properly (which means, the parent doesn't exit and return control until after it's listening on all appropriate sockets)
<stokachu> so ill have to fork to get this to work as expected then
<slangasek> hmm, so the cookbook is saying "it's simpler to use foreground mode" - yes it is simpler, but it's almost assuredly not going to give the desired semantics for dependent services
<stokachu> yea my app doesn't fork at all
<stokachu> i was attempting to let upstart manage it without having to daemonize it
<slangasek> stokachu: you could also use 'expect stop', that'd be easier to implement in the app
<stokachu> ok ill look into that
<stokachu> emitting sigstop looks simple enough :)
<stokachu> maybe i can get by with that
<slangasek> fwiw, the existence of 'expect stop' is vastly underadvertised... mostly because it's not a common modality among existing software
<stokachu> slangasek: but its a viable solution i would think
<slangasek> yep, should be
<stokachu> as far as the documentation is telling me
<stokachu> cool thanks!
#ubuntu-devel 2013-04-26
<blitzkrieg3> does anyone know a new version of phb crystal ball?
<pitti> Good morning
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> cjwatson: to follow the tradition we will wait until you do the vim upload, to get your #1 place in saucy/+queue :-)
<pitti> oh noes, seems infinity already broke that and uploaded vim in raring
 * geser tries to get vim (from experimental) merged over the weekend
<geser> is the mailing list title for saucy-changes on purpose? :) (see https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Saucy-changes and compare it with e.g. raring-changes)
<sunweaver> dbarth: morning!!! I sent some merge requests last night (remote-login-service, unity-greeter). If you have any questions contact me via IRC. Thanks
<dbarth> sunweaver: ok, seen it; will review next week during our sprint
<ogra_> gah
<ogra_> so i upgraded to raring final and my chromebook doesnt boot anymore :(
<xnox> ogra_: I think you want to talk to ogra on #ubuntu-arm =)
<ogra_> haha
<ogra_> he ignores me !
<Nafallo> ogra_: clever guy :-)
<rbasak> Hmm. I haven't upgraded to raring final yet, though I've got everything on --download-only already. Perhaps I should hold off a bit? Or clone my SD card and try and narrow it down?
<rbasak> Thanks for the warning :)
 * mpt misses mvo
<ogra_> rbasak, well, i use the preinstalled chromeos kernel ... i fear upstart grew some requirements that one cant fulfill :/
<rbasak> I'm using the chromeos kernel too. THanks for the warning - I'll experiment when I get round to it
<ogra_> i couldnt use the kbd anymore ... USB kbd works
<ogra_> and modemmmanager as well as NM respawn until they die
<ogra_> X doesnt start either ...
<sunweaver> dbarth: awesome.
<xnox> ogra_: upstart didn't grow anything in the default install. but i guess pr_ctl call is compiled in. What kernel is chromeos one?
<rbasak> Sounds pretty severe
<ogra_> 3.4.0
<ogra_> well, i wonder if i didnt get a full upgrade yet
<rbasak> I'm using Linux chromebook 3.4.0 #1 SMP Sat Nov 24 23:10:02 PST 2012 armv7l armv7l armv7l GNU/Linux on mine, but AIUI there is a newer build (same base version though)
<sunweaver> in the process of reviewing, please contact me on any question that comes up. I have a focussed disposition on getting X2Go remote-login support into saucy (and finally into the next LTS).
<sunweaver> dbarth: ^^^
<ogra_> rbasak, so i had the phablet ppa in my sources ... seems there was the whole of unity touch added to it the last days ... thats what broke it... if you dont have it you should be safe to upgrade
<kaleo> didrocks: do you know who is the bamf expert? trevinho?
<didrocks> kaleo: yeah, he's the right guy to poke about it :)
<kaleo> didrocks: what's his nick
<kaleo> Trevinho
<kaleo> :)
<didrocks> kaleo: yep ;)
<didrocks> kaleo: you can catch him on #ubuntu-unity as well FYI
<kaleo> thx
<rbasak> ogra_: got it. Thanks!
<caribou> what is the best course of action to get a fix present in Quantal into precise-updates ?
<caribou> for a fairly small package (i.e. cifs-utils)
<caribou> doing mount -o remount {cifs share} {mountpoint} adds a shadow entry in /etc/mtab so it appears mounted twice
<caribou> lp: #1144612
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1144612 in cifs-utils (Ubuntu) "puppet double mounts CIFS mounts" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1144612
<seb128> caribou, do a SRU for it?
<seb128> caribou, not sure to understand the question ;-)
<xnox> caribou: please complete the template on the bug description as per: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates#SRU_Bug_Template
<caribou> seb128: yeah; I meant is it better to get the whole version present in Q (i.e. cifs-util 5.5.1) or just SRU the single patch that fixes the issue
<seb128> caribou, the smaller the diff the better
<xnox> caribou: single patch, as small as possible.
<caribou> seb128: xnox: ok, I'll work on it & hopefully can backport that single commit
<xnox> caribou: editing the bug description with a testcase is small and first step.
<caribou> xnox: it's in my last comment on the bug
<xnox> caribou: that way you or anyone else can work on patch and it will be easy sailing from there.
<caribou> xnox: but I'll add it in the SRU template for better visibility
<xnox> caribou: bug description that is =) don't edit the template ;-)
<caribou> xnox: yep :)
<caribou> xnox: I got a clipper note for the SRU template
<caribou> xnox: seb128 thanks for the inf
<caribou> s/inf/info
 * ogra_ wonders if the guy asking for developer inteviews will be done with cross posting to all possible lists on lists.ubuntu.com at any point 
 * xnox ponders how i got into juju charm authors =)
<mardy> seb128: hi! I wrote a message this morning to the ubuntu-devel ML, but it's still waiting for moderation
<mardy> seb128: it was about libproxy: Qt 5.1 it will most likely depend on it
<mardy> seb128: so maybe if there are issues, it's better to try to fix them in libproxy itself
<seb128> mardy, hey, I saw your message
<mardy> seb128: ah, OK, I thought it was still waiting
<seb128> mardy, it's not, I read it this morning
<GridCube> tedg, hi, could i bother you in pm for a moment?
<tedg> GridCube, Sure, or you can bother me here :-)
<GridCube> :) ok, hi
<bdmurray> infinity: do you have any ideas about bug 1105137?
<ubottu> bug 1105137 in eglibc (Ubuntu) "Debconf prompt on upgrade from quantal to raring" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1105137
<infinity> bdmurray: Haven't had a chance to have ideas.  But my maintainer scripts check for desktop upgrade modes.  Did update-manager regress?
<bdmurray> infinity: not from what I can tell RELEASE_UPGRADE_MODE is set to desktop
<bdmurray> infinity: I added some details to the bug
<infinity> bdmurray: Hrm.  Curious.
<ev> bdmurray: hm, https://errors.ubuntu.com/api/1.0/package-version-new-buckets/?package=ubiquity&previous_version=2.12.14&new_version=2.14.6&format=json doesn't return anything though.
<bdmurray> ev: hmm, I'll have a look in a bit.  I noticed some false positives with jockey and 0.9.7-0ubuntu7.7 vs ubuntu7.8
<ev> bdmurray: cool, thanks
<ev> added the results of that run to the bottom of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ErrorTracker/CassandraQueries, so we're keeping track of how fast these things are and saving ourselves from having to dig through old RT emails when trying to estimate/optimise.
<bdmurray> jamespage: you might want to have a look at bug 1173240
<ubottu> bug 1173240 in apport (Ubuntu) "hook error in cloud_archive.py" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1173240
<jodh> smoser: your Friday treat - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cloud-init/+bug/1124384/comments/15
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1124384 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "Configuration reload clears event that others jobs may be waiting on" [High,Confirmed]
<jamespage> bdmurray, well thats annoying
<smoser> jodh, hooray
<ev> mpt: remind me what colour you wanted for saucy? I hope it was a saucy one.
<mpt> ev, continuing through the spectrum from green to blue to indigo, we arrive at ... ketchup
<ev> lol
<ev> and what's the hex code for a bottle of Heinz?
<ev> (and its "by 12.04 standards" variant)
<mpt> ev, roughly #d20700
<bdmurray> I was hoping for brown sauce
<ev> hahahaha
<mpt> I'm not fussy
<ScottK> Should be this color: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/sriracha
<ev> Oh how I love The Oatmeal
<ckpringle> irwed
<Laney> bdrung: here?
<bdrung> Laney: yes
<Laney> bdrung: do you know what's up with this? http://paste.debian.net/467
<bdrung> Laney: dch defaults to the current ubuntu devel release instead of hardcoding one. what do you want? do you want a different behaviour?
<Laney> bdrung: no, I'm showing you that there's a difference between the installed executable and the script in the source package
<bdrung> Laney: the first hunk is deliberately, let me check the other two
<bdrung> Laney: the other two are deliberately, too. see in the Makefile:
<bdrung> # On Ubuntu always default to targeting the release that it's run from,
<bdrung> # not the current devel release, since its primary use on stable releases
<bdrung> # will be for preparing PPA uploads.
<bdrung> get_ubuntu_devel_distro() is only used on Debian
<Laney> I see
<Laney> that's an interesting way of making that change!
<Laney> I don't think the comment is right - it's the release that it's built on, isn't it?
<bdrung> yes, built on (not run from). i will change that
<Laney> merci
<Laney> bdrung: or you could fix it to actually do what the comment says and then we won't have to do a no-change rebuild
<borior> hey all. I'm just getting started with debuild and friends (and debian packaging more generally) and have a question: is there a way I can get the shlibs for some files put into my control file as "Suggests" rather than "Depends"?
<borior> I'm building collectd, which has a few core binaries and then a bunch of plugins
<bdrung> Laney: fix pushed. does a no-change rebuild that much?
<bdrung> *hurt that much
<Laney> Might as well save some CO2 if we can
<xnox> borior: split them into multiple binary packages? collectd and collectd-plugins, collectd-plugins-extra ?
<borior> I'd like the things the core binaries link against to be in "Depends", but things the plugins link against to be in "Suggests", as in the stock collectd-core package, but I'm not sure how to do that with dh/debuild. If someone can point me to the right docs that would be much appreciated.
<xnox> borior: see other similar packages which do that, e.g. nagios & it's plugins.
<xnox> borior: in general if you link against it & ship in the package and it's not in the depends, then it's a policy violation. You can really link against things and then downgrade them to suggests =)
<borior> xnox: I could do that, but I'd pretty much need a package for every plugin, whereas just making the relevant shlibs "Suggests" solves my problem ...
<borior> and it's what the ubuntu stock collectd-core does
<infinity> borior: Short answer, you'd call dh_shlibdeps twice.  Once with a -X to exclude the plugins (see dh_shlibdeps(1)), and the second time with "-- -dshlibs:plugins" (see dpkg-shlibdeps(1)), and then put ${shlibs:plugins} in suggests in control.
<borior> infinity: thank you very much, that's the bit I was missing
<infinity> borior: I'd rather see people split plugins out and have proper deps, though.  Since suggesting libraries won't enforce installation and people will just be grumpy when the plugins don't load.
<borior> infinity: okay, I'll look at that as a possibility
<borior> this is an internal package only at the moment, though
<borior> infinity, xnox: thanks for the help
<xnox> infinity: interesting didn't know that trick.
<bdmurray> ev: from what I can tell there are no buckets that were first reported about version 2.14.6 of ubiquity all the buckets were already known
<slangasek> tedg: I don't suppose you'd like to generalize your apport hook for upstart user job logs, so that any package that contains any user jobs automatically gets any logs attached?
<tedg> slangasek, Uhm, sounds cool.  Not sure quite how to do that thought.
<tedg> Perhaps pitti could give pointers :-)
<tedg> I think that the hook gets run based on the source package name.
<xnox> i guess it should go into apport proper -> check package for user jobs & find and attach logs.
<tedg> So I don't know how you'd have a hook that would work across all of them.
<slangasek> the apport hook can query dpkg for the current package for a list of any files matching /usr/share/upstart/sessions/, then check for any corresponding files matching ~/.cache/upstart/$foo.log
<xnox> to be honest that should be done for system pacakges as well, cause not many attach the upstart/job.log
<slangasek> hmm, doesn't apport have the binary package name at some point?
<slangasek> fwiw, /usr/share/apport/package-hooks/ is full of symlinks for binary package names
<tedg> I'd imagine that it does, but I don't know that it exports it as a hook.
<tedg> As xnox said, I think it'd have to be in apport proper.
<slangasek> right, that's what I had in mind
<tedg> I don't patch Python programs.  People always argue about style on Python patches.  I hate arguing over how many foreach's I should use.
 * slangasek hehs
<tedg> :-)
<tedg> I don't see any issue with it, but considering the day and time, I'd probably just delay to ask pitti is thoughts next week.
<tedg> his thoughts
<slangasek> sure
<slangasek> just wanted to plant the seed for discussion while I saw you :)
<tedg> Heh, cool.  Sounds good.
<tedg> Speaking of that, xnox we should talk about acc stuff next week too.  I know tvoss is interested.
<dobey> hrmm, if updates require a restart, isn't the system indicator supposed to turn red and show that? update-manager just showed me the restart dialog, but indicator shows nothing about needing a reboot
<seb128> tedg, slangasek: note that apport never attached ~/.xsession-errors to avoid sending "private datas", so that's smething we should think about
<seb128> dobey, it is
<seb128> tedg, slangasek: currently apport has a regexp and "grep" for specific knowing warnings (like the glib/gtk ones)
<seb128> and just attach that
<dobey> seb128: ok, thought so. guess i'll file a bug if it happens again next time there's an update that requires reboot
<slangasek> seb128: why would private data be written to stderr, ever?
<seb128> slangasek, define "private", some users consider their username to be private info ...
<seb128> or path to files
<seb128> or filenames
<tedg> slangasek, Perhaps "Authenticating Facebook account 'bob.jones'" ?
<slangasek> seb128: to me, the stronger rationale for not including .xsession-errors is "it's full of irrelevant garbage"
<dobey> all data is private data
<slangasek> well
<dobey> and yeah, there is a lot of crap in .xsession-errors :(
<tedg> seb128, But bugs with that data are private by default, right?
<seb128> slangasek, well, between too much infos and not enough I lean toward the first one, at least it gives me a chance to find what I need
<slangasek> given that users have the option to review the contents of the bug report before it's sent, I think they can at least make an informed decision
<seb128> tedg, no
<seb128> tedg, or pretty much every single bug would be private, seeing how much spamming we have in .xsession-errors
<seb128> tedg, a good part being indicators btw ;-)
<tedg> seb128, It'd be mostly stacktraces, no?
<seb128> tedg, bugs with a dump are private yes
<tedg> Heh, we're fixing that with upstart ;-)
<seb128> bugs including ~/.xsession-errors errors are not
<dobey> restarting indicators makes them not spew data?
<slangasek> if they choose not to submit the bug report because it exposes filenames or such, chances are they're not going to be working with us to flesh out an actionable bug report anyway
 * dobey runs pkill -9 indicator right now
<slangasek> but in any event, I think this is premature optimization
<tedg> But what other types of bugs use apport hooks besides stack traces and user initiated ones?
<tedg> dobey, It does, but it'll be to the upstart logs here soonish.
<seb128> slangasek, well, I'm not against adding the logs, I would have attached .xsession-errors by default before, I'm just saying "talk to pitti, he made apport not do that on purpose" ;-)
<dobey> tedg: well, anyone can use ubuntu-bug to add data to a bug. so it doesn't have to only be at initial reporting time
<slangasek> k :)
<seb128> tedg, what bugs don't use apport?
<tedg> seb128, Submitted on LP, no?
<dobey> seb128: the ones where apport crashes because the hook uses something not available in python3 because the package only works on python2 ;)
<seb128> hehe
<tedg> Nobody important uses Python 2.
 * slangasek high-fives tedg 
<tedg> :-)
<seb128> slangasek, "users have the option to review the contents of the bug report before it's sent" ... they do, but in practice there is so much information there that's impossible to review it
<dobey> compiz (core) - Warn: this should never happen. you should probably file a bug about this.
<dobey> those are my favorite ones
<xnox> tedg: sure, talking about acc is always interesting =)
<dobey> the "hey, there's a bug here!" in stderr/stdout
<seb128> slangasek, and with whoopsie we made efforts to not expose technical details, sure there is a button you can click to get that suboptimal UI...
<sarnold> .. and there's no way to elide specific bits of the report with that UI
<seb128> tedg, btw
<seb128> $ grep indicator dbus.log | wc -l
<seb128> 2409
<slangasek> seb128: I review this information before every bug report I submit
<dobey> seb128: and even if users reviewed it, they may not even know they are giving up private data, because much of it can be quite technical and not easily understandable
<seb128> slangasek, you have lot of spare time I can see :p
 * seb128 hides
<tedg> seb128, Yeah, I know.
<dobey> it's also really hard to review some of it in the apport UI
<slangasek> seb128: no, I just don't submit so many bugs anymore because you never fix them ;-)
<seb128> ahah
<dobey> because a 500 line stack trace in a single treeview cell is not fun
<slangasek> seriously, it doesn't take me that long to review the list of attachments for things that are sensitive
<seb128> slangasek, great to see that me not fixing bugs is a win for you ;-)
<seb128> right
<seb128> I just doubt non-technical users do that
<seb128> Stacktrace.txt wouldn't speak to them, even if they would try
<dobey> pretty sure they don't
<slangasek> granted, not all users will do this or know how, but I think anyone who's actually worried about data leakage will
<dobey> otherwise they wouldn't file bugs with private ppa passphrase hashes in them
<slangasek> ... which was a bug in the apport hook which has been fixed
<slangasek> I don't think it's a tall order to demand that software not spit confidential information out on stdout/stderr
<dobey> slangasek: indeed. i'd consider it a critical bug for anything that does
<seb128> slangasek, dobey: well, even in debug mode?
<seb128> ted was considering turning debug mode on in the upstart job for indicators
<seb128> to max out the debug infos in bug reports
<slangasek> hm
<slangasek> well in that case he was already planning to attach that info :)
<slangasek> so it's orthogonal to the question of whether this is a sane default for apport global behavior
<dobey> seb128: yes.
<Vanderson> Hi, I have a simple doubt.  I trying to start in Ubuntu Dev and I get this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-screenshot/+bug/1169904 and make a pacth to it : https://code.launchpad.net/~vandersonmr/gnome-screenshot/bugfix1169904 ; So what should I do next?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1169904 in One Hundred Paper Cuts ""Save screenshot" dialog window has wrong focus" [Undecided,In progress]
<iBelieve> I've noticed there is a new version of git-cola available (1.8.2). I checked Debian and it is available in sid. I'm not very sure how new package versions work - will this automatically make it into 13.10 or do I need to file a bug to get it upgraded?
<slangasek> iBelieve: it will be automatic because there are no Ubuntu-specific changes to the package
<slangasek> if there had been Ubuntu changes, it would not be automatic; a developer would have to merge it
<iBelieve> slangasek: Okay, thanks.
<dobey> can someone sponsor the debdiff on bug #1173249 into raring-proposed please? since i don't have upload privs to pygobject
<ubottu> bug 1173249 in software-center (Ubuntu Raring) "update-software-center AttributeError during upgrade from 12.10 to 13.04" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1173249
<Daviey> Logan_: You are keen.  Already running saucy i see :-).
<Logan_> lol, you know it. :P
<Vanderson>  Hi, I have a simple doubt.  I trying to start in Ubuntu Dev and I get start with this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-screenshot/+bug/1169904 and make a pacth to it : https://code.launchpad.net/~vandersonmr/gnome-screenshot/bugfix1169904 ; So what should I do next? How  do I sent this pacth to the mainstream?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1169904 in One Hundred Paper Cuts ""Save screenshot" dialog window has wrong focus" [Undecided,In progress]
<ScottK> Vanderson: I would ask in #ubuntu-desktop next week.  We just had a release so very few people are around now.
#ubuntu-devel 2013-04-27
<saiarcot895> Now that Raring has been released, can the packages that have been granted FFe still go into Raring stable?
<maxb> 01:44 < maxb> It's slightly unclear what you mean by 'Raring stable'
<maxb> 01:47 < maxb> The raring release pocket is absolutely and completely immutable at this point. Stable Release Updates can be processed into raring-updates, but a grant of FFe prior to release probably is invalid  at this point
<saiarcot895> Ah well
<wgrant> saiarcot895: A new package? A new feature in an existing package?
<saiarcot895> New upstream version in three existing packages
<saiarcot895> all related
<wgrant> In either case an FFe isn't relevant any more, and your only option is probably to get it into saucy-backports
<wgrant> That sounds like a good case for -backports.
<saiarcot895> You mean raring-backports, right?
<wgrant> Er, yeah
<wgrant> saucy, and then raring-backports
<wgrant> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBackports
<saiarcot895> will work on that
<saiarcot895> I still have to follor the sponsorship process, right?
<saiarcot895> *follow
<ScottK> For backports you need to get it into saucy first
<saiarcot895> I know
<saiarcot895> To get it into Saucy itself, I still need to use the sponsorship process, right?
<crhrabal> dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -d -us -uc -S failed
<crhrabal> bzr: ERROR: The build failed.
<crhrabal> when i try to build s test package i get this output, what am i doing wrong?
<cjwatson> We'd need to see the whole output (in a pastebin or similar).  That looks like it follows some earlier error.
<crhrabal> http://pastebin.com/UT3tdwBj
<cjwatson> crhrabal: You need to satisfy the package's build-dependencies first.  sudo apt-get build-dep mountmanager (unless this is a package you're developing, in which case install the Build-Depends listed in debian/control)
<crhrabal> cjwatson: Thanks.
<bl4de> hi guys, I'd like to contribute into bug-solving etc...what do you recommend to start?
<bl4de> *contribute to
<bl4de> guyys :)
<deeps_> i want to develop app for terminal using c++, but don't know where to start from :(   could any one please help me
<GridCube> deeps_, you will have to be more specific
<sladen> deeps_: echo -e "#include <iostream>\nusing namespace stn ()\n{\n\tcout<<\"Hello World\";\n\treturn 0;\n}\n">hello-world.cpp&&g++ -o hello-world hello-world.cpp&&./hello-world;echo
<penguin42> deeps_: If you want something that puts characters at specific places on the terminal  or has a menu like thing in a terminal then you might want to look at libncurses or libnewt
<sladen> deeps_: echo C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C-e "#include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main ()\n{\n\tcout<<\"Hello World\";\n\treturn 0;\n}\n">hello-world.cpp&&g++ -o hello-world hello-world.cpp&&./hello-world
<sladen> meh
<sladen> deeps_: echo -e "#include <iostream>\nusing namespace std;\nint main ()\n{\n\tcout<<\"Hello World\";\n\treturn 0;\n}\n">hello-world.cpp&&g++ -o hello-world hello-world.cpp&&./hello-world
<deeps_> i have develop app
<deeps_> in c++
<deeps_> its ready...
<deeps_> all i need to know is...
<deeps_> let me start again...
<deeps_> i have develop an app for terminal using c++
<sladen> deeps_: ...compile it?  ...package it?  ...port it?
<ogra_> run it ?
<deeps_> i am stuck with 2 parts...
<deeps_> 1st one...
<deeps_> in terminal we have feature like by pressing <tab> key it shows the possible commands for the application...
<deeps_> how do i do it with c++
<deeps_> no idea at all :(
<sladen> deeps_: readline
<sladen> deeps_: http://www.gnu.org/software/readline/
<deeps_> and how can i package it and make available as repo?
<sladen> deeps_: http://developer.ubuntu.com/publish/my-apps-packages/
<deeps_> thanx a lot...i think i should check those links :)
<sladen> deeps_: https://launchpad.net/~sladen#email-addresses
<sladen> wendar: ^^where do the app-review team hang out these days?
<wendar> sladen: ubuntu-arb
<wendar> though, the first question sounds more like #ubuntu-app-devel
<sladen> wendar: ta, yes, the latter
<mzaza> Arer there Ubuntu project written in C++ I can contribute to?
<mzaza> Is there anyone alive here?
<smartboyhw> mzaza, be patient. Patience is one of the things needed when contributing:)
<mzaza> smartboyhw: Sure, OK :)
<sladen> mzaza: yes, plenty of people are alive.  There is alot of software in Ubuntu that is written in C++.  Is there perhaps a particular bug you've noticed, or feature that you would like.  That might narrow down where to look and work on
<sladen> mzaza: apt-cache rdepends libgcc1     will show you a list of programmes using C++
<infinity> sladen: It will?
<infinity> sladen: I think you mean libstdc++6
<sladen> mzaza: ^^
<mzaza> libstdc++6 then?
<sladen> mzaza: apt-cache rdepends libstdc++6  will show you a list of programs using C++
<mzaza> sladen: Would you recomment an easy project to start on if I am new? I was think in Compiz but I think it might be complex for my level.
<sladen> mzaza: Is there perhaps a particular bug in Ubuntu, or feature you've wanted to add?  That would narrow down what types of software might be interesting.  The best is often to have a goal, and to work back
<sladen> mzaza: *Ubuntu, or any of the software packaged for Ubuntu
<mzaza> sladen: Yes, Unity. It's sluggish :D
<penguin42> mzaza: Pick a package you use a lot and look through the bugs for it or pick a bug that annoys you
<mzaza> penguin42: And download it's repos using git, right? But how to know which file is releated to the bug, I mean is there like a file I should check to know more about where everything goes to?
<penguin42> mzaza: That very much depends on the project - you have to get to know the source a bit - but that's learning
<sladen> mzaza: debugging;  although for instance a stack-trace might lead you to the file/line-number;  or even just simply reading the code (particularly in a small program/package)
<sladen> mzaza: did you have a bug number in mind/
<mzaza> sladen: No not, yet I am checking the Bugsquad now and setting everything up.
<sladen> mzaza: what software do you use (other than Unity)
<mzaza> sladen: Well Ubuntu with Unity, vim, g++, chromium, virtualbox, monodevelop, smplayer. That's what I use on daily basis
<mzaza> sladen: The software center too
<mzaza> & Ubuntu one
<mzaza> The most thing I wish to help in fixing, but it will be complex for my level is the performance of Unity. I was surprised to see Windows 8 out performance Ubuntu on both low-end and high-end machines.
<penguin42> yeh start simpler; although you might want to learn to use profiling tools like perf
<sladen> the performance of the Unity-3D codebase is somewhat ... suboptimal.  A lot of the good old performance of Unity-2D should be regained with the move back to Qt
<mzaza> So, is there like a PDF guide written in easy way I could read like the KDE Developer guide to help me set me up?
<sladen> mzaza: why not work on a Qt/KDE application if you're already familiar with that area?
<penguin42> yeh and they're normally C++
<mzaza> sladen: I am not familiar I just read the guid and I was going  to start working with it. But I don't use KDe so I thought I should work on something I use.
<sladen> mzaza: QML/Qt is the widget set and technology the Unity-Ubuntu stuff is using, so I don't think you'd go far wrong
<sladen> mzaza: perhaps you should work on smplayer!  that is Qt
<mzaza> sladen: I'll check it out. Is it normal if feel somewhat lost :D
<mzaza> at the beggining I mean
<penguin42> yes!
<penguin42> mzaza: There's a lot of source out there and a lot of bugs, and some packages are BIG
<mzaza> penguin42: Right...
<mzaza> Well, thanks guys for helping me out :)
<mzaza> exit
<crhrabal> Well, I have perused documentation but can't find a lot of good tutorials. I have fixed a number of bugs within the code itself, I just don't know how to make a patch.  I thought the actual development process was supposed to be the hard part, but it seems I'm mistaken.
<penguin42> crhrabal: Patch at what point ?
<crhrabal> I got the source code on my computer, I fixed the source code
<crhrabal> And that's where I'm stuck
<penguin42> ok, is it a debian package or just the upstream source, and did you download it as a tar or using git/svn/bzr/what?
<crhrabal> downloaded in bzr
<crhrabal> and its traced back to debian
<crhrabal> do i need to push it to debian before it can be pushed into ubuntu?
<penguin42> crhrabal: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment  for a start
<penguin42> crhrabal: it depends
<penguin42> crhrabal: If it's something ubuntu has screwed up then you can fix it in ubuntu, you can also fix it in ubuntu but generally it's preferred to fix it upstream if you can
<crhrabal> Oh, I figured the way to go was fix it in ubuntu then push the change upstream
<penguin42> crhrabal: it's not a hard rule, however if it's fixed in ubuntu then it means ubuntu has to keep updates if upstream updates and it's a bit messy - if you can get it fixed upstream everyone is happy
<penguin42> crhrabal: Also if the upstream guys agree your patch is the right way, then the ubuntu guys are quicker to take the patch
<crhrabal> okay thanks
<pianogmx> hello... I have been using ubuntu for some time and I want to figure out how I can contribute to ubuntu.
<penguin42> pianogmx: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu
<pianogmx> penguin42: i already saw that....
<penguin42> pianogmx: OK, are you a programmer?
<pianogmx> i have learned how to program on WIndows with .NET and Java... but I want to learn how to program for ubuntu
<pianogmx> i made a notepad program using C++ and QT a month ago
<penguin42> you could look at some bugs on Qt apps and see if you can fix them, or look at Qt upstream to see if you can help fix bugs there
<pianogmx> penguin42: would that be considered working outside of the ubuntu project though if i wanted to contribute to ubuntu and be an ubuntu member?
<penguin42> pianogmx: Well Unity is moving (back) to using Qt - not sure of the details of that, best to ask someone involved - so not sure if you can get involved in that
<penguin42> pianogmx: But if you fix a bug in a package that Ubuntu makes use of then you help Ubuntu users as well as other users
<pianogmx> okay thanks for the advice ill be back
<pianogmx> penguin42: is there more value in me contributing to the ubuntu / unity flavor than the ubuntu / kde flavor?
<infinity> pianogmx: There's value in your contributing to what you enjoy using and working on.
<pianogmx> ok
#ubuntu-devel 2013-04-28
<crhrabal> http://pastebin.com/vKu7Ud31
<crhrabal> I can't push to launchpad, what am I doing wrong?
<Laney> dobey: I've popped out of the other end but failed to upload for you. Soz - will get to it tomorrow...
<vipzrx> USB disconnect, device number 36  why ï¼
* infinity changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Ubuntu 13.04 released | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of hardy -> raring | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<lamont> I'm concerned that when I tell brasero to burn an audio CD, it sits at "normalizing tracks" for, well, apparently ever.
<ScottK> This is not the audio cd you were looking for ...
<ScottK> It might be a useful test to burn it with k3b and see if it works.
<lamont> but I don't want to install all of thekde
<ScottK> It won't be all, should be just the libs.
<ScottK> They aren't THAT big.
<lamont> heh
<lamont> I may do that later
<ScottK> IIRC they both use the same foundations so it'd be a handy way to narrow down where the problem is.
<anivar> Hi This one year bug is still not fixed and contain very old versions of fonts . This also affects indian language readability in raring https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ttf-indic-fonts/+bug/958345
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 958345 in ttf-indic-fonts (Ubuntu) "ttf-indic-fonts: new changes from Debian require merging" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<anivar> Hi This one year old bug is still not fixed and contain very old versions of fonts . This also affects indian language readability in raring https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ttf-indic-fonts/+bug/958345
<crhrabal> https://code.launchpad.net/~crhrabal/ubuntu/saucy/rhythmbox-ubuntuone/saucy
<crhrabal> can someone tell me if i merged this properly
<gotwig> hey
<gotwig> can I report here broken packages in universe?
<gotwig> please take a look at bug #1174070
<ubottu> bug 1174070 in touchegg (Ubuntu) "Touchegg 1.0 under 12.04, 12.10 causes segfault, is NOT working. missing backporting of 1.1 to 12.04/12.10" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1174070
#ubuntu-devel 2014-04-21
<Aki-Thinkpad> Ah; there are so many ubuntu development channels; #ubuntu+1, #ubuntu-app-devel, #ubuntu+2 ... is there any that I am missing?
<dobey> Aki-Thinkpad: are you looking for something specific?
<Aki-Thinkpad> dobey, I just like being up to date with the development cycle, partly because I am using the platform, and plan to contribute eventually.
<Aki-Thinkpad> (Already developing ubuntu-touch stuff)
<Aki-Thinkpad> for me, its a really exciting platform to be involved in.
<dobey> lurking in irc is probably not the best way to be "up to date"
<dobey> i don't know if there's a mailing list for all the changes that get uploaded/synced to the dev release, though
<sergiusens> dobey: Aki-Thinkpad you can subscribe to the archive uploads I guess
<Aki-Thinkpad> sergiusens, where is that?
<Aki-Thinkpad> dobey, very true. Still, lurking irc is easy.
<sergiusens> Aki-Thinkpad https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/trusty-changes
<Aki-Thinkpad> sergiusens, thanks!
<sergiusens> Aki-Thinkpad: that isn't of use now though, you'll need to wait for the archive to open up for U
<Aki-Thinkpad> oh I forgot one; #ubuntu-on-air
<dobey> Aki-Thinkpad: and #ubuntu-desktop #ubuntu-kernel #ubuntu-packaging #ubuntu-release #ubuntu-xorg etc etc i think (plus kubuntu, xubuntu, etc specific channels if you want those)
<Aki-Thinkpad> dobey, thanks, I appreciate it
<Aki-Thinkpad> !cookie
<ubottu> Wow! You're such a great helper, you deserve a cookie!
<dobey> !rum
<dobey> bah
<Aki-Thinkpad> ha ha
<Aki-Thinkpad> I lol'd.
<dobey> 10:10 <ubottu> Sorry, I don't know anything about rum
<dobey> yes, that's obvious
<Aki-Thinkpad> !wine
<ubottu> WINE is a compatibility layer for running Windows programs on GNU/Linux - More information: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Wine - Search the !AppDB for application compatibility ratings - Join #winehq for application help - See !virtualizers for running Windows (or another OS) inside Ubuntu
<Aki-Thinkpad> there you go
<dobey> http://www.yellow5.com/pokey/archive/index160.html
<ali__> to every body:i want to get all processes that they are running in foreground
<Aki-Thinkpad> dobey, o_O  sort of reminds me of hackles... but more abstract
<Aki-Thinkpad> dobey, #ubuntu-tablet + #ubuntu-tv are also there. I
<Aki-Thinkpad> -I
<phunyguy> hey is this the correct channel to ask some questions regarding a ppa?
<infinity> phunyguy: The owner of the PPA is probably the better person to ask.  Or #launchpad if you're looking for help with your own PPA.
<phunyguy> ... I am the owner....
<phunyguy> oh ok
<phunyguy> thanks
<jayaura> Hello, I am a kernel noob, and was building one the trusty. but dmesg says my module is not signed, and hence tainting the kernel. Is there a way I can get the private keys for signing those modules I Make?
<jayaura> "building one ON the trusty"
<jayaura> Of course I mean the keys for the one I am already running 3.13.0-24-generic
<jayaura> or is that a *private* property of ubuntu ?
<infinity> jayaura: It's not so much that it's private, but rather that it's not known even to us.  The key used to sign modules in the archive kernel is generated and thrown away during the build.
<jayaura> infinity, hmm so it means I have to build my own kernel with module signing turned off to get away with this problem, right? Do I have any other solution ?
<infinity> jayaura: If you're building your own kernel, that's not a problem, as you'd just sign with your own key.  But if you're building modules for use with the archive kernel (using dkms, or by hand), then you'll pretty much have to live with them being unsigned.  This is a known issue that we need to come up with a better solution for.
<infinity> jayaura: We don't enforce signature checking, so your module will still load.
<infinity> jayaura: The taint listing isn't fatal, just informative.
<jayaura> infinity, yes, I get it. Thanks for the info! ,  and for the quick response! :)
<stokachu> barry: for private python modules using entry_points in their setup.py do you know how to make sure that private python module path exists in sys.path?
<stokachu> barry: right now a console script file is generated automatically, should i put that generated file in /usr/share/<module> and s ymlink it to /usr/bin?
<stokachu> ls
<barry> stokachu: you have to hack sys.path manually in your script.  some packages do the symlink dance and others just install into /usr/bin.
<stokachu> barry: ok cool, i think ill just place the scripts in /usr/share/<mod> and add the file to the links file in the package
<stokachu> was just curious what 'the right way' was
<barry> stokachu: i think this is all debian policy has to say on the matter: https://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/python-policy/ch-programs.html#s-current_version_progs
<barry> i.e. nothing about /usr/bin
<stokachu> ok cool
<stokachu> i think this way is clean enough no-one will complain ;)
<barry> cool
 * ScottK hears rickspencer3 screaming "lost development velocity" in the distance.
 * rickspencer3 shakes fist
<orbisvicis> how do I pin/prefer a virtual package in pbuilder? For example PackageA depends PackageB and PackageC provides PackageB, how do I give PackageC priority over PackageB ?
<orbisvicis> PackageC is local, PackageB remote, I already give local packages higher priority but PackageB still has priority
<dobey> orbisvicis: change your build-depends to have "PackageA, PackageC | PackageB" rather than just PackageA; although if the dependency is already satisfied, i don't see why apt would pull the other one in, unless something else depends specifically on PackageB, in your dep tree
<orbisvicis> s/PackageA depends/& on/
<orbisvicis> dobey: that works, but I was hoping I could simply pin a virtual "provided" package rather than change the build-depends
<orbisvicis> dobey: it seems pinning ignores virtual packages, PackageB is selected simply because the name matches
<karab44> hello
<karab44> when this bugfix will be available for update ? https://launchpad.net/~eugenesan/+archive/ppa/+sourcepub/4095467/+listing-archive-extra
<karab44> okay #ubuntu-bugs I undersand :)
<orbisvicis> this pinning stuff is very fragile. Can anyone provide an example to match/pin all nonlocal (repository) apache packages ?
<orbisvicis> as soon as I use a package name, the pin no longer works. Only * works as Package:
<orbisvicis> the mapping is shown in apt-cache policy but the priority is not applied, in apt-cache policy <packagename>
<orbisvicis> hm, I didn't read the policy correctly. Actually the same priority is applied to all packages matching <package name>, irrespective of "Pin:" attributes
#ubuntu-devel 2014-04-22
<pitti>  Good morning
<dholbach> good morning
<zyga> good morning
<pitti> ogra_: we dropped/will drop support for the Galaxy Nexus, right? i. e. is it ok to drop the workaround for bug 1234743?
<ubottu> bug 1234743 in systemd (Ubuntu Trusty) "omapfb module floods system with udev events on samsung galaxy nexus" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1234743
<ogra_> pitti, we dont build device images for it anymore, might have stopped booting with some recent changes
<pitti> ogra_: ack, thanks
<ogra_> so yes, if it helps, drop it
<ogra_> pitti, note that either the meizu or bq have PVR chipsets though, we might need it back we we are unlucky
<pitti> ogra_: ah, ok; well, it's in git, if we see those produce uevents like mad we can adjust it to those
<ogra_> right, just dont throw it away :)
<pmcgowan> bregma, any progress on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/1307701
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1307701 in unity (Ubuntu) "Unity does not get touch events when SDK apps running" [High,Confirmed]
<bregma> pmcgowan, can't say I spent the last-minute release crush and the holidays working on it, so no progress yet
<pmcgowan> bregma, ok, didnt know if it was assigned off to someone to look at
<bdmurray> pitti: Could you please review https://code.launchpad.net/~brian-murray/apport/retrace-package-versions/+merge/210308?
<bdmurray> mvo_: Could you have a look at bug 1309386?
<ubottu> bug 1309386 in unity-control-center (Ubuntu) "System details page not aware of phased-updates" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1309386
<mvo_> bdmurray: sure
<bdmurray> mvo_: thanks
<tedg> ev, So charles and I have some code for reporting recoverable problems that we've cut-and-pasted a few places, we're thinking it should go in a lib somewhere. Do you have a good place to put that?
<cjwatson>  /wg 53
<cjwatson> sorry
<ev> tedg: libwhoopsie?
<ev> tedg: and thanks to the both of you for taking on that work
<tedg> ev, Heh, it's fun filling bugs on other people ;-)
<ev> I have so little time for whoopsie and apport these days. It's encouraging to know that other people are stepping up
<ev> lol
<jibel> mvo_, when you have time could you have a look at bug 1296629 ? I cannot reproduce with the clone, but the upgrade path is different.
<ubottu> bug 1296629 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Ubuntu 14.04 partial upgrade error: Removing python3-plainbox:i386 rather than change python3:any:i386" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1296629
<ScottK> NoNameYet_xnox: nonameyet was already used.
<james_w> is there a way to test the 12.04 to 14.04 upgrade using do-release-upgrade?
<james_w> now that it's not in development -d doesn't seem to pick it up
<james_w> and so it just tries to upgrade to 12.10
<Logan_> james_w: is your 12.04 installation fully updated?
<james_w> yeah
<Logan_> odd - people have reported being able to upgrade from 12.04 to 14.04
<Laney> james_w: what does Prompt= say in /etc/update-manager/release-upgrades?
<Logan_> james_w: edit /etc/update-manager/release-upgrades and set Prompt=lts
<james_w> Laney: normal
<Logan_> :P
<james_w> aha
<james_w> that did it, thanks
<Laney> enjoy
<Logan_> cheers :)
<pitti> slangasek: do you want to target https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1403-systemd-transition at u-series, or for later?
<pitti> slangasek: I have some working test packages in a PPA now; I dropped the systemd-services split as it was quite a large change towards Debian and didn't get accepted; and it seems rather unnecessary now
<pitti> bdmurray: ack, will do first thing tomorrow; back from holidays now
 * ogra_ wonders if U is really the cycle for systemd toying, given the phone teams need to build a stable phone release on top of it by summer
<SpamapS> I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Firefox is using more memory than it should..
<SpamapS> clint     5542 13.3 80.3 15004536 13098528 ?   Dl   Apr21 191:15 /usr/lib/firefox/firefox
<cjwatson> ogra_: We have to experiment with it before we switch to it, no matter what
<cjwatson> And I'd expect "phone still works" to be a blocking criterion
<ogra_> cjwatson, yeah, i'm just scared by the default switch, surely not by playing
<infinity> The default switch will have to happen eventually too, and we're always trying to ship a stable product.
<infinity> So, no room for fear.  Just lots of testing before we swap.
<ogra_> well
<ogra_> being the one trying to optimize the boot speed i'm a bit unsure if i want to do all that throw away work :P
<infinity> ogra_: Is the intent on the phone really to ship a U snapshot instead of sorting out a clever way to build on top of T?
<ogra_> infinity, that would make us end up with gigantic PPAs filled with stuff that has to be maintained in two places
<infinity> ogra_: Sure, but a snapshot dead in the middle of a distro cycle is also going to be problematic.
<ogra_> i think U should be the base and we fork at some point
<ogra_> rather than forking trusty and having to merge back the whole chunk later into U
<ogra_> the whole trusty phone images were incredibly stable
<ogra_> during the whole cycle ... my worry is if we can retain that stability in a non LTS cycle during development
<ogra_> if it would be as stable as trusty was we surely would be fine with U
<Unit193> ogra_: I started playing with it in Ubuntu the trusty cycle. :P
<ogra_> do you like it ?
<Unit193> There are actually a couple benefits to upstart, but shutdown is far faster with systemd.  (Bootup is the same though.)
<ogra_> is it ?
<ogra_> the numbers i have seen systemd was always slower
<ogra_> (on bootup that is)
<cjwatson> It's going to depend on a bunch of other integration work, either way
<ogra_> indeed
<Unit193> Updates are still pretty smooth, only times it isn't is when no init script is shipped in the package, and only an upstart job is, like with whoopsie.
<cjwatson> e.g. in Debian, minimal systems with upstart vs. systemd, systemd boots significantly quicker (which is no doubt due to missing upstart jobs in various places)
<slangasek> pitti: the systemd-services split is still necessary for the time being; we need to be able to land systemd in the archive on an opt-in basis before we make it the default
<slangasek> pitti: oh, though I guess installing 'systemd' doesn't change init, so that's probably ok after all
<slangasek> pitti: anyway, blueprint targeted, yah
<orbisvicis> i've just built my first python-support package for a simple script (arch: all, requires .install file). Is it normal that all files were isntalled to /usr/share/pyshared/ and /usr/lib/python{2.6,2.7}/* is empty ?
<orbisvicis> I am backporting a package from dh_python2, which installs to both /usr/share/pyshared/ and /usr/lib/python* (duplicates content from pyshared), which is why I'm asking. Is something missing?
<dobey> orbisvicis: backporting to what? 10.04?
<dobey> orbisvicis: it is normal with python-support though, yes. the symlinks in /usr/lib/python* are created at install time
<orbisvicis> dobey: yes. thanks, now I know, at least, that the symlinks aren't being generated during installation
<dobey> orbisvicis: i think dh_python in 14.04 doesn't have the symlinks or pyshared dir at all.
<orbisvicis> dobey: backporting to 10.04, most likely the symlinks *should* exist?
<dobey> orbisvicis: after installation, they will get created, yes
<orbisvicis> well, the package works so I won't bother about it
<dobey> that's how pysupport works
<dobey> or during installation i guess (depending on how pedantic you want to be about unpacking, postinst, and dpkg triggers)
<orbisvicis> dobey: any ideas why they wouldn't have been generated. python-support 1.0.4 ?
<dobey> what do you mean not generated?
<dobey> at package build time? or during install?
<orbisvicis> dobey: during install
<dobey> you installed the package, and it can be imported, right?
<orbisvicis> dobey: yep
<dobey> orbisvicis: then symlinks must have been created, and i guess you are looking in the wrong place for them :)
<orbisvicis> dobey: good enough ;)
<orbisvicis> for me
<orbisvicis> does cdbs have "upstream" ?
<orbisvicis> found t
<orbisvicis> *it
<Logan_> orbisvicis: upstream is Debian
#ubuntu-devel 2014-04-23
<mwhudson> i'm seeing the local dnsmasq occasionally go screwy and not answering requests in trusty
<mdeslaur> FYI, python-django security update introduced a regression. Have identified upsteam bug and fix and will release updates shortly. (LP: #1311433)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1311433 in python-django (Ubuntu Trusty) "REGRESSION: AttributeError: 'functools.partial' object has no attribute '__module__' " [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1311433
<pitti> slangasek: indeed; this just ships some additional binaries now like /lib/systemd/systemd, it doesn't change the default
<pitti> slangasek: i. e. the PPA is meant to land as it is; I disabled systemd-sysv, as that's uninstallable as long as many things depend on upstart only
<pitti> slangasek: so for the time being one has to manually boot systemd, as in my blog
<pitti> slangasek: and ISTR that we discussed in the hangout (or in the TC bug) that the systemd-sysv approach wasn't what we wanted?
<Unit193> (I used a modified 10_linux to add it as an option to grub http://paste.openstack.org/show/K8PXsu8nhUxTz89yJg4M/ but then again I did several things differently than you did.)
<dholbach> good morning
<NikTh> pitti: Hello , are you here ?
<pitti> hello NikTh
<NikTh> pitti: I just commented on your blog about systemd. It seems that there is no turning back to official packages ? e.g with ppa-purge I get an error about  "Could not find package list..."
<pitti> NikTh: if you don't boot with init=, it's not supposed to change anything; it seems this changed the NM behaviour somehow
<pitti> NikTh: no idea why ppa-purge doesn't work; how did you call it?
<pitti> it worked well enough some time ago
<NikTh> pitti: sudo ppa-purge ppa:pitti/systemd
<NikTh> pitti: ppa-purge is working on other ppas (I have tested it on other ppas just for sure)
<NikTh> pitti: Yes, the NM does not work on upstart if you have updated the packages with systemd repo.
<pitti> NikTh: hm, NM works fine here
<pitti> (with upstart)
<pitti> NikTh: what's the output of "nmcli nm"?
<pitti> and is NM running at all? (pidof NetworkManager)
<NikTh> Now I have booted in systemd , If I boot in upstart (now that I have updated through your repo) I don't have an active Internet connection. I can ping properly, but no application is able to resolve any host.
<pitti> NikTh: right, so please give me the nmcli nm output under upstart; also, can you pastebin the complete ppa-purge output? this ought to work (and it's not specific to my PPA)
<zyga> pitti: hey, very cool the work you did on bringing systemd to Ubuntu! :-)
<pitti> zyga: it wasn't all that much really -- so far this is just what the Debian maintainers di :)
<pitti> did
<NikTh> I suspect something with resolv.conf , because now (with init=/lib/systemd/systemd) I can see nameserver correctly in contents. When I boot without the parameter resolv.conf is empty.
<pitti> zyga: I merely created a lightdm unit, and our NM doesn't have units, everything else pretty much just worked
<pitti> NikTh: right, that means NM/dnsmasq isn't running properly
<zyga> pitti: do you think it is realistic we'll see systemd in u series early on?
<zyga> pitti: as a default?
<pitti> zyga: not as default; we first need to provide systemd equivalents of all the /etc/init/* bits
<pitti> zyga: but  I do intend to upload the PPA contents to U as soon as it opens; so far this should be fairly harmless
<zyga> pitti: ah, right, I recall the transition uds sessions, it's a difficult nut to crack
<tjaalton> could someone who knows grub2 have a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1311247
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1311247 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "error: malformed file, press any key to continue" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<pitti> zyga: not particularly difficult, just some work (and probably merging with Debian and maybe stealing some units from Fedora)
<zyga> pitti: does systemd upstream support running as a user session?
<tjaalton> a friend of mine hit that bug
<tjaalton> after lts->lts upgrade
<NikTh> pitti: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=fLqniTEy
<pitti> zyga: yes, but we'll look at that after settling the systemd side; one step at a time
<zyga> pitti: well the transition decisions were hard (do we keep upstart to run unconverted jobs or do we break compatibility)
<pitti> zyga: first we need to make that rock solid, and also make this work on the server and phone
<pitti> zyga: see the BP; upstart should run as a "deputy init" for some time
<zyga> pitti: has there been a decision to switch on phablet now?
 * zyga wonders how that will affect our initial product launches
<pitti> NikTh: what do you have in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ ? is there a .list for my PPA at all?
<pitti> NikTh: maybe that's already gone
<pitti> zyga: we of course can't do anything which breaks the phone; hence I just want to make this opt-in for now, so that interested developers can play with it, but we don't break anything
<zyga> pitti: nice, I indend to give it a try as soon as U opens
 * zyga wonders when U will get a name and when the archive will be open
<NikTh> pitti: is there, something wrecked I suspect with servers ? with launchpad ? I will test it again later.
<pitti> zyga: there's the PPA for now
<ogra_> zyga, pitti will be very carefull, if he breaks the phone he knows i can whine in his ear all day for the rest of the cycle if needed ;)
<pitti> oh yes; and ogra_ lives near enough that I can hear him whining from here!
<ogra_> pitti, could we get armhf builds in your PPA ?
<ogra_> :)
<doko_> heulsuse
<ogra_> lol
<pitti> ogra_: my layman PPA doesn't have ARM, but I can do a manual build and put them on people or so
<pitti> ogra_: but U will be open soon enough, then we'll just get them from the archive :)
<ogra_> pitti, just ask the LP team to enable armhf
<zyga> ogra_: heh :-)
<ogra_> soon enough ... right
<pitti> dear sabdfl, please give us an adjective
<pitti> for the Undeniable Unicorn
<pitti> or Untitled Ubuntu
 * ogra_ thinks this is a conspiracy between mark and randall ross to make planet more popular again 
<asac> the "unnamed ubuntu" :)
<asac> hehe right
<NikTh> pitti: What is your understanding on this ? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=6EbQSq8B
<ogra_> suddenly everyone has it open again and hits F5 all day
<pitti> NikTh: oh, suddenly it works?
<mvo> uber Uguisu
<zyga> uncanny underdog
<pitti> yeah, http://www.list-of-animals.com/u.html is hopelessly small :/
<mvo> yep
 * mvo like uncanny underdog
<NikTh> pitti: I don't think it worked properly. Did not downgrade the packages properly.
<pitti> actually, maybe ogra's head will look like http://www.list-of-animals.com/details-uakari after landing systemd :)
<zyga> lol :)
<ogra_> LOL !
<pitti> NikTh: hm, right; so it seems ppa-purge is broken :(
<pitti> NikTh: what happens if you try: sudo apt-get install network-manager/trusty ?
<pitti> NikTh: oh, you need to remove /etc/apt/sources.list.d/pitti-systemd-trusty.list first and run sudo apt-get update
<NikTh> pitti: I will try something else first.. wait. I have added the ppa again and I will try to remove it again, because ppa-purge worked as it should on other ppas. Only this one seems to have some difficulties.
<pitti> NikTh: otherwise, try
<pitti> sudo dpkg --P --force-depends systemd
<pitti> sudo apt-get install {udev,network-manager,libgudev-1.0-0,lightdm,systemd-services,libpam-systemd,gir1.2-gudev-1.0,libnm-glib-vpn1,libnm-util2,gir1.2-networkmanager-1.0,libnm-glib4,liblightdm-gobject-1-0,libsystemd-login0,libsystemd-daemon0,libsystemd-journal0,libudev1,libudev1:i386}/trusty
<pitti> NikTh: but yes, re-adding and re-removing sounds worth a try, too
<NikTh> pitti: what would you answer on this ? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=xAxT8vXH . I would answer yes, but as I said something weird is happening with the packages.
<pitti> NikTh: yes, that looks right
<pitti> NikTh: i. e. "y"
<NikTh> pitti: :-)
<pitti> NikTh: the PPA removes systemd-services and adds systemd, so ppa-purge should revert that
<NikTh> pitti: Here is another funny part : http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=Ln2CwpWk
<pitti> NikTh: ah, yes; better do that when running under upstart; the trusty version has no idea about systemd, it assumes upstart is there
<NikTh> pitti:  the funny thing is that NM (as we said before) does not work under upstart, so it cannot read any packages list.
<pitti> NikTh: it already downloaded everything, so it should
<pitti> NikTh: but as I said, I have no idea why NM doesn't work for you, it does here; I need "nmcli nm" as a first step for debugging that
<pitti> NikTh: but you should run apt-get install -f first; it seems with all the ppa-purge stuff you wrecked your packages quite a bit :(
<NikTh> pitti: quite a bit ? quite a LOT I would say. :P
<NikTh> I will reboot in upstart now.. what logs you may want to keep for the  NM/dnsmasq problem ?
<NikTh> pitti:
<pitti> NikTh: not sure yet; could be that NM doesn't start up at all (nmcli will fail then), or doesn't see the connections, etc.
<pitti> NikTh: I kind of hope it fails to start completey (although I can't reproduce that), as everything else would be rather unrelated to upstart vs. systemd
<NikTh> Ok, I'll see.  See you later.
<pitti> NikTh: /var/log/syslog is interesting in most cases
<pitti> mvo: with python-apt, I can only call mark_install() on an apt.package.Package object; but I have already picked a (non-default) version from its .versions array, can I somehow mark *that* for install instead of the most current version?
<pitti> mvo: or do I have to call fetch_binary on the apt.package.Version object, and drop the usage of apt.apt_pkg.Acquire?
<mvo> pitti: yes, just change the candidate version and then call mark install
<mvo> pitti: i.e. pkg.candidate = some_different_ver should work
<pitti> mvo: ooh! thanks!
<mvo> pitti: if not let me know and point me to the code please so that I can poke around
<pitti> mvo: it works wonderfully, thanks!
<NikTh> pitti: I'm back :)
<mvo> pitti: great to hear
<NikTh> I have resolved(short of) the problem with resolv.conf in upstart mode. I "hacked" manually the /etc/resolvconf/resolv.conf.d/head and added a custom nameserver like 8.8.8.8
<pitti> NikTh: so is NM running at all?
<NikTh> But when I ran resolvconf -u guess what the message was ?
<NikTh> Yes, NM was running, nmcli nm returned enabled  active running..
<NikTh> As I told before that I can ping, but it cannot resolve any host.
<pitti> so what was the error message?
<NikTh> /etc/resolvconf/update.d/libc: Warning: /etc/resolv.conf is not a symbolic link to /run/resolvconf/resolv.conf
<pitti> ok, that sounds rather unrelated to what boots your system :)
<NikTh> So I made the symbolic link properly and now I am in upstart mode with NM full working. nslookup return the appropriate messages
<pitti> nice
<pitti> NikTh: well, it could certainly be related to /etc/init/resolvconf.conf not having a systemd equivalent
<pitti> (nor an init.d one)
<NikTh> The thing here is that before I upgrade from your repo I didn't have any problem, but I will not insist, because I had one other testing repo except yours. :)
<NikTh> Anyway, I will try to fix the other errors now, with ppa-purge
<pitti> NikTh: it could certainly be; in my VM /etc/resolv.conf isn't a symlink either
<pitti> NikTh: so thanks for pointing that out!
<NikTh> pitti: I will still keep testing your repo/packages/systemd.. you can consider me as a tester on this migration :-) I  use  systemd in Arch Linux and Fedora.. so I think I can help a little bit  :)
<pitti> NikTh: nice! yes, I just confirmed that booting with systemd replaces the symlink with a file; I'll fix that
<pitti> NikTh: so, thanks for reporting that!
<NikTh> pitti: Ok. Glad I helped :-)
<ogra_> asac, HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!!
<pitti> oh, alles Gute asac!
<NikTh> pitti: ppa-pure now worked as it should. The user must purge the ppa in upstart mode (as you indicated earlier) or it will not work. Everything back to normal :)
<pitti> yay
<mvo> ohhh, asac HAPPY BIRTHDAY :)
<asac> omg
<asac> now the public reminder :P
<ogra_> :)
<asac> ogra_: pitti: mvo: thx
<asac> i feel honoured to be with you guys on my birthday :P
<asac> even if only remotely
<asac> hehe
<ogra_> heh
<seb128> asac, happy birthday!
<asac> seb128: thanks!
<mvo> asac: haha
<asac> mvo: at least you are ahead of me :) (i hope i remember correctly)
<mvo> asac: I think so, yes - and ogra_ as well ;)
<ogra_> yeah, i'm an old fart
<Laney> you old guys...
<NoNameYet_xnox> Laney: =))) happy two years!
<mlankhorst> still no name?
<Laney> NoNameYet_xnox: !!!
<mvo> Laney: ohhh, congrats
<Laney> mvo: thanks
<Laney> xnox too (we're twins)
<Laney> (ish)
<NoNameYet_xnox> =)
<seb128> NoNameYet_xnox, is there for as long as Laney is?
<seb128> happy anniversary guys ;-)
<NoNameYet_xnox> seb128: yeah =) on parole that is, Laney was in the community for longer than I have been.
<NoNameYet_xnox> *payroll
<seb128> NoNameYet_xnox, k, that's probably why it feels like Laney has been there for ever ;-)
<Laney> doesn't to me :P
<dholbach> asac, happy birthday! :)
<asac> dholbach: o/
<asac> thanks!
<zyga> asac: happy birthday :-)
<doko> asac, wuÃte ich doch daÃ asac fÃ¼r "Alter S***" steht ;-P  Viel SpaÃ beim ZÃ¤hlen der Jahresringe =)
<asac> doko: :P
<asac> immer diese typisch deutschen witze
<asac> hehe
<asac> zyga: thanks!
<NoNameYet_xnox> doko: wouldn't it be helpful for gcc-multilib to ship e.g. i386-linux-gnu-gcc (et.al.) binaries/symlinks?
<NoNameYet_xnox> (for symmetry with gcc:i386 on i386)
<doko> can't be symlinks, and needs some thoughts what the defaults should be ...
<work_alkisg> There's a translateable string in gedit that sets the preferred encoding for the current locale. It was translated wrong for the "el" locale until today, when I notified the gnome-gr team and we fixed it upstream.
<work_alkisg> I want to backport that translation for previous versions of Ubuntu, e.g. 12.04, 14.04 etc. If I go to translations.launchpad.net and edit it (I have the required rights), it'll show up in the next "language-pack-el", right? Or do I need to file a bug report/SRU about it?
<NoNameYet_xnox> alkisg: yes, just edit it on translations.lauchpad.net for all affected releases. a lang-pack refresh will pick it up.
<alkisg> Thank you NoNameYet_xnox, done: https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+source/gedit/+pots/gedit/el/+translate?batch=10&show=all&search=ISO-8859-15
<NoNameYet_xnox> alkisg: i think we do langpack refresh at point releases so 14.04.1 and 12.04.5 will have it fixed.
<alkisg> Cool
<caribou> Laney: I have a question regarding https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sosreport/+bug/1296755
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1296755 in sosreport (Ubuntu Saucy) "sosreport archive /var/lib/maas by default" [Medium,In progress]
<caribou> Laney: you added a task for Quantal-backport, any reason for that ? this release is EOL
<Laney> caribou: It's not, not for a few weeks yet
<caribou> Laney: is it worth going through the backport trouble for that ? I wouldn't think so
<caribou> Laney: sosreport is mainly used by the support engineers
<Laney> it's up to you
<caribou> Laney: ok, I will mark the Quantal backport as "Wont fix" and concentrate on Precise
<Laney> If you want to update it in P then that's what is needed
<Laney> So sez the rules of backports
<caribou> Laney: you mean I just have to wait a week and I'll only have to worry about precise ?
<Laney> Probably more like 4 weeks, but there's no announcement about that yet
<caribou> Laney: well, both P & Q sosreport versions are the same; I'll build debdiffs for both
<caribou> Laney: thanks for the details
<Laney> Don't think it'll be hard to boot a Quantal VM and see if it runs
<Laney> the standard required isn't very high
<caribou> indeed
<arges> Trevinho: hi, I'm looking at bug 723167, and notice that this issue was partially fixed. Would you like me to open a new bug, or mark this bug back to 'New' status. Thanks
<ubottu> bug 723167 in cairo (Ubuntu) "Fuzzy fonts caused by Cairo antialiasing artifacts with Radiance theme." [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/723167
<slangasek> pitti: I certainly expect that systemd will be providing /sbin/init eventually, and we're not going to have to manually boot, if that's what you mean
<pitti> slangasek: ah, so we don't want a separate systemd-sysv, just move /sbin/init, poweroff, etc. from upstart to systemd?
<pitti> slangasek: (as we only support one system, not multiple as Debian)
<slangasek> pitti: I think that would be the eventual goal; I'm not sure we need to diverge in the other direction from the Debian packaging
<pitti> slangasek: ok; well, let's figure that out when the time comes :)
<pitti> debian delta wise, it might just be easiest to have systemd-sysv after all
<Logan_> Riddell: yeah, everything seems to be in limbo due to not having a codename
<Logan_> we can't even update distro-info-data properly yet
<Adri2000> almost one week after the release :/
<Riddell> seems most unprofessional
<pitti> Riddell: yes, it's really blocked; you wouldn't know what to put into debian/changelog and the .changes file, for starters
<dobey> pitti: "unstable" :)
<pitti> dobey: I still call dibs on "Untitled Ubuntu"
<Logan_> sabdfl is letting us down
<pitti> PPAs FTW..
<NoNameYet_xnox> pitti: well, you can upload to "devel" but that would still at the moment end up in trusty's queue.
<pitti> yeah, wrong target
<Logan_> nice nick, Dimitri :P
<ogra_> Logan_, dont you have to call him John now ?
<ogra_> :)
<NoNameYet_xnox> pitti: at one point there was a plan to use devel alias all the time (like in debian) but apt complaints about something (can't remember i think if one uses devel in sources.list)
<pitti> NoNameYet_xnox: I had used devel in apt sources for quite some time; but I reverted it as I ran into hash sum mismatches way more often than with "trusty"
<NoNameYet_xnox> pitti: it would be nice if we could keep devel always open, similar to how fedora's raw-hide is always open, and stable release is simply branched at FF or some such.
<pitti> NoNameYet_xnox: I mainly suspect that the symlinks interact badly with apt-cacher-ng
<pitti> NoNameYet_xnox: rolling release! *cough*
<Logan_> NoNameYet_xnox: so... Debian?
<NoNameYet_xnox> Logan_: well that's how i've been doing my merges yesterday - > by forwarding patches to debian and tricking maintainers to upload them =)
<Logan_> that's the best way to do them :)
<NoNameYet_xnox> i guess i should start mass NMUs....
<barry> i just want my tab completion to stop getting confused on "tru" when i have both trusty and trunk directories
<Logan_> could we maybe make "u-series" an alias for whatever adjective he comes up with?
<NoNameYet_xnox> barry: well i have "trusty" and "u-series"
<barry> NoNameYet_xnox: yeah.  i always branch into a dir named after the series.  it was a bit painful last cycle ;)
<MacSlow> jamesh_, ping
<ryanprior> Is there a PPA for the latest Qt and Qt Creator on 13.10?
<Logan_> ryanprior: looks like https://launchpad.net/~alexey-ivanov/+archive/qtcreator has the latest Qt Creator
<ryanprior> Logan_: thanks. Looks like that's still Qt4. I'm also interested in using the latest Qt but I haven't been able to find a repo with both the latest Qt and the latest Qt Creator.
<Logan_> build from source?
<ryanprior> Logan_: I can sure do that. I just figured that since Ubuntu has been doing so much Qt work already, somebody might already be tracking the latest stable releases so that I wouldn't have to.
<ryanprior> Logan_: if I start building from source at every new stable release, I might as well maintain a PPA with the latest Qt and Qt Creator packages. But I figured somebody  here might already be doing that.
<NoNameYet_xnox> ryanprior: what do you define as "latest"?
<NoNameYet_xnox> ryanprior: qt5 in ubuntu is at 5.2.1
<NoNameYet_xnox> ryanprior: which is latest stable release at this point.
<ryanprior> NoNameYet_xnox: in Saucy it's 5.0.2
<Logan_> ryanprior: why not upgrade?
<NoNameYet_xnox> ryanprior: upgrade to 14.04 LTS, it's out now.
<ryanprior> NoNameYet_xnox: because I'm in the middle of development and don't have a second machine I can get all set up and migrate to. If I screw up my only machine during upgrade then I'll have to sink a day restoring my data and configuration from backups.
<NoNameYet_xnox> ryanprior: or start 14.04 in lxc container / chroot to launch/use newer qt.
<NoNameYet_xnox> or use a VM.
<NoNameYet_xnox> ryanprior: trying to retro-fit 5.2 onto 13.10 is the surest way to break your machine, since it's a large transition which is only correctly compatible with 14.04.
<ryanprior> NoNameYet_xnox: okay, I'll look into the chroot option. That sounds pretty sensible.
<Logan_> guess who just got a text about a post by Mark :D
<Logan_> UTOPIC UNICORN LEGGOOOO
<Logan_> (I love it)
<UtopicUnicorn> NoNameYet_xnox: time to change your nick :P
<ogra_> ++
<zyga> ohhh yes
<zyga> unicorns it is
 * zyga looks forward to natty narwhal videos for unicorns 
<UtopicUnicorn> I'm going to need the t-shirt for this release
<dobey> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9auOCbH5Ns4
<zyga> dobey: but is that a *utopic* unocirn ;) ?
<dobey> zyga: well it's not a breezy badger, waving its arms around
 * zyga loves this job
<Quintasan> Well
<Quintasan> I guess it's time for some rainbows in default wallpapers
<dobey> heh
<sarnold> hehe
<apw> pitti, i seem to remember us talking (maybe at a real uds so this could be old) that mountall should but did not fix premounted filesystem's options to match mtab, for things like /proc and /sys; can you recall the discussion?
<apw> pitti, and, ugg, does this flow over into systemd at all
<ogra_> apw, doesnt systemd require that mounting happens in the initrd ?
 * ogra_ heard that somewhere ... might be a myth 
 * apw looks clueless about systemd (pretty impressive over irc i recon)
<ogra_> heh
<bdmurray> mpt: Do you a suggestion for a color for the retracers graph for failed retraces for 14.10? https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~daisy-pluckers/errors/trunk/view/head:/errors/static/js/retracers.js
<infinity> bdmurray: Pink.  With unicorns surfing the peaks.
<Logan_> well, that's just special
<Logan_> I proposed a merge for a branch that I can push to
<dobey> and?
<dobey> i do that daily :)
<Logan_> it was a minor change that didn't really need approval, and I didn't realize I had access to the branch :P
<Logan_> tumbleweed: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-dev/ubuntu-dev-tools/trunk/revision/1420
<Logan_> fixed that from your change in 2011: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-dev/ubuntu-dev-tools/trunk/revision/1201.1.33 :P
<Logan_> it was quitting if people said "yes" and continuing if "no"
<Logan_> and it was asking if people wanted to continue :P
<tumbleweed> Logan_: thanks
<Logan_> no problem
#ubuntu-devel 2014-04-24
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> apw: hm, I don't remember this at all
<pitti> ogra_, apw: yes, systemd pid 1 mounts /proc and /sys, similarly to mountall in the upstart world
<infinity> pitti: Hey.  You have some tasks with your name on them on NewReleaseCycleProcess
<infinity> pitti: retracer, ddebs, autopkgtest...
<pitti> ogra_, apw: but not sure what these have to do with mtab -- /etc/mtab is a zombie which never quite dies sufficiently to get rid of it :/ but either way, at the time when we mount /proc and /sys it's definitively too early to even consider (or read) /etc/mtab
<pitti> infinity: hey
<pitti> infinity: yeah, finally :)
<pitti> infinity: did we already get any uploads to utopic? i. e. anything to catch up with on ddebs?
<infinity> pitti: A few, yeah.
<infinity> pitti: https://lists.canonical.com/archives/utopic-changes/2014-April/thread.html
<pitti> infinity: ddebs set up; cron job starts in 30 mins, I'll check ddebs when I start my day for real
<infinity> pitti: Lovely.  I assume autopkgtest will be more effort.
<pitti> infinity: I'll deal with that with jibel this morning
<pitti> infinity: utopic retracers set up
<infinity> pitti: Dude, I just realized what time it is.  What sort of crazy person wakes up at 5am?
<pitti> infinity: heh, you of all people complain about weird working hours? :-)
<pitti> I woke up at 4, couldn't sleep any more, so I thought I could just as well do something useful
<pitti> and maybe get tired over it :)
<infinity> pitti: Ahh, kay.  *That* happens to me all the time.  I was afraid this might have been an intentional wakeup, and was going to send nice men in pretty white coats to take you away.
<pitti> heh; I'd give a lot for being able to sleep through a whole night; I've had some trouble with that for a year or so
<infinity> pitti: I feel your pain.
<infinity> pitti: I make it through maybe one night a week, if I'm lucky.
<pitti> urgh
<infinity> (And it usually seems to be when I actually needed to be up early...)
<infinity> Basically, I can't win. :P
<dholbach> good morning
<MacSlow> hey dholbach
<dholbach> hey MacSlow
<ari-tczew> hello
<dholbach> hi ari-tczew
<aleb> How can I become a maintainer of the Launchpad package I'm developing (upstream)?
<mlankhorst> who's the current maintainer?
<aleb> "registry" https://launchpad.net/pitivi
<aleb> I guess nobody
<jamesh> aleb: ask on #launchpad
<jamesh> aleb: wgrant or cprov should be able to help
<ogra_> pitti, mtab gets linked to /proc/mounts very very early in the initrd (pretty much the first thing the /init script does there)
<pitti> ogra_: oh, do we do this now? niiic!
<pitti> /etc/mtab -> /proc/mounts
<ogra_> i wonder if we couldnt just leave it that way instead of having something create a file
<pitti> I have it on my desktop, but I have a suspicion that's systemd, not ubuntu standard
<ogra_> iirc there were reasons to still have it
<pitti> I guess to keep track of non-kernel mount options?
<ogra_> like tools parsing it and expecting a certain fromat that /proc/mounts doesnt give us
<pitti> it's mostly the same format, but /proc/mounts doesn't retain userspace options
 * ogra_ would love if we could just keep it a link now
<pitti> me to
<pitti> too
<pitti> /etc/mtab has been a horrible horrible misconception
<ogra_> right, therewas info missing, but we might need to fix some external tools to not regress
<ogra_> (if they still expect a certain format)
<pitti> ogra_: what's your /etc/mtab on your desktop?
<ogra_> its a file ... i'm on precise
<pitti> oh, wow
<ogra_> i'm pretty sure its a file on trusty too
<ogra_> (not on the phone weher mountall is largely a no-op (all mounting happens in initrd there)
<pitti> ok, so I guess systemd sets that up
<ogra_> is it a link under systemd?
<pitti> yes
<ogra_> cool
 * pitti tries something
<pitti> ok, that works
<pitti> uhelper=udisks2
<ogra_> i think we can rely on tools to be fixed then
<pitti> that's an userspace mount option that udisks uses so that you can call "umount" as user on auto-mounted drives
<pitti> and that works
<ogra_> great
<pitti> and that's the bit which is *not* in /proc/mounts
<pitti> but "mount" does show it
<pitti> so it keeps track of those someplace else now
<ogra_> hmm
<pitti> hah! /run/mount/utab
<pitti> SRC=/dev/sdb1 TARGET=/media/martin/PittiUSB ROOT=/ OPTS=uhelper=udisks2
<pitti> so util-linux had this fixed ages ago
<pitti> not quite surprising, given how long Fedora etc. have run with /etc/mtab -> /proc/mounts
<ogra_> heh
<pitti> so, user mount options: check
<pitti> that was the only reason AFAIK why we still needed that
<ogra_> :)
<jamesh> mardy: could I pick your brain about online accounts again?
<xnox> ogra_: on the phone most mounting is done by mountall =) like the gazillions of bind mounts.
<ogra_> xnox, nope
<ogra_> its all done in the initrd
<ogra_> oh, wait, you are right, the binds are done by mountall
<ogra_> the actual mounts arent
<xnox> pitti: i think we do need newer util-linux, we've been staggering behind for a while now....
<xnox> lamont: infinity: what's the status about getting newer util-linux?
<pitti> xnox: we don't need it for this particular issue, but having a non-ancient one would be good nevertheless
<mardy> jamesh: hi, sure
 * xnox needs to check the partman/d-i bugs about it.
<jamesh> mardy: I put together .provider and .service files for SoundCloud via the desktop.  I put together this short test program to try and retrieve the access token, but it seems to log me out again: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~jamesh/unity-scope-soundcloud/go-port/view/head:/accounts/accounts.c
<pitti> xnox: there are some attempts to moving to a newer version by some community members, but as it doesn't have broken-out patches it's quite a mess I'm afraid
<xnox> pitti: ok. imho everything should partse mountinfo, not mtab / mounts. but i guess loads of things will never learn.
<jamesh> I get the error "GDBus.Error:com.google.code.AccountsSSO.SingleSignOn.Error.UserInteraction: userActionFinished error: 10" and a notification bubble saying I've been logged out
<pitti> xnox: we certainly should keep the /etc/mtab symlink around for some time, yes
<xnox> pitti: yeap, that should be fine.
<jamesh> I used the signon-ui logging environment variables you gave me before to see that an access token was retrieved correctly, so I would have thought it would just be provided to me directly
<xnox> pitti: how is lightdm/plymouth integration with systemd? do i need to steal/port units over?
<pitti> xnox: I have lightdm with a systemd unit in my PPA (and soon in utopic); there is no plymouth integration ATM
<pitti> i. e. boot is just with a black screen until lightdm starts
<mardy> jamesh: but then, if you go to the Online Accounts panel, you should see an exclamation mark next to the soundcloud account
<pitti> not that I'd see it for a long time (it's just a second or so)
<mardy> jamesh: which means it needs to be authenticated
<mardy> jamesh: the reason is that we need to popup a UI in order to authenticate
<pitti> xnox: plymouth integration certainly sounds like one of the more/most complicated bits in that transition
<jamesh> mardy: yes.  I log in again in the control panel, rerun my program and get the same result
<mardy> jamesh: OK, this is weird then. Can you enable the logging in /etc/signond.conf, try again (both from the control center and from your app) and send me the syslog?
<mardy> jamesh: you might have to clear it from sensitive informations, maybe
<jamesh> mardy: okay.  I'll give that a shot
<xnox> pitti: also re:utopic-plans-of-running-system-upstart-as-pid2 do we want that at all? i was still unsure how to achieve that.
<pitti> xnox: I don't think we want it for anything packaged; just ensuring that for every upstart-only job that we have (i. e. no init.d script) we add an accompanying unit seems easier to me
<pitti> xnox: but I think during the UDS session we said we'd want it for custom upstart jobs written by the admin?
<xnox> pitti: right, have you seen https://code.launchpad.net/~upstart-devel/upstart/upstart-jobs ?
<xnox> pitti: that branch has all upstart jobs, all initd scripts and all unit files present in ubuntu at the moment.
<pitti> xnox: heh, no; is that somehow magically updated from all packages from the archive?
<pitti> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~upstart-devel/upstart/upstart-jobs/view/head:/fetch-contents.mk
<pitti> nice
<pitti> xnox: I added a link to that to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1403-systemd-transition
<pitti> hah! there, bluetooth fixed; it's quite nice, now it only starts up if you actually have a bluetooth adapter
<ogra_> pitti, not so sure about that ... how does it know ?
<ogra_> on the phone you might end up that you actually dont see all of the BT device
<pitti> ogra_: it doesn't start by default; but there is this rule in /lib/udev/rules.d/99-systemd.rules:
<pitti> SUBSYSTEM=="bluetooth", TAG+="systemd", ENV{SYSTEMD_WANTS}+="bluetooth.target"
<ogra_> ugh
<pitti> then it starts bluetooth.target
 * ogra_ hopes that will still work with the hardware being handled inside the container 
<pitti> ogra_: how can bluez work on the phone if there are no devices?
<ogra_> we have custom per-device BT upstart jobs atm
<pitti> ogra_: in the worst case we put it back on "always start" on the phone
<ogra_> (thats about to change and the full logic will move into the container, on the ubuntu side only bluetootd should start)
<pitti> ogra_: custom jobs? on the phone you mean? because on teh desktop we just always start it
<ogra_> yes, we run hciattach with the per device options atm ... but that will move into the container
<ogra_> note that we suppress starting of udev too
<ogra_> until after the container is up ...
<pitti> ogra_: in theory this should be fine; bluetooth needs to see a device to actually work; and once you see it, udev ought to see it as well
<pitti> and as I said, if due to our weird hacks this is broken, we just enable it to always start
<ogra_> so the events get used by udeventd (android) instead of udev
<pitti> ogra_: we don't run an udev coldplug?
<ogra_> you cant "just always start" BT on a phone
<ogra_> that might eat your battery ...
<pitti> ogra_: well, or transition whichever custom upstart jobs we have (I didn't look at them yet)
<pitti> but binding this to "I have BT hardware" sounds like the right thing in general?
<ogra_> pitti, udev starts in initrd ... then gets shot down, once the container starts ueventd grabs the events ... once the container is up we start udev normally
<ogra_> pitti, lxc-android-config has all of the custom jobs in one place
<ogra_> (well, everything container related at least)
<ogra_> (sorry, i'm a little over-cautious ... )
<pitti> ogra_: hm, I see a few udev rules which change permissions of BT devices, but no custom jobs?
<pitti> ogra_: sure :) well, it's not like we'd dump that on the phone and don't check :)
<ogra_> oh, for BT they are in bluetooth-touch
<ogra_> i thought you wanted to see the udev side :)
<pitti> bluetooth-touch-mako.conf just has a few setprop calls
<ogra_> yeah, looks at the others :)
<ogra_> *look
<pitti> ogra_: I did, but they all just seem to fiddle with the killswitches or poke some bits into the android side, or load firmware
<ogra_> really depends what chipset you have all devices with broadcom need to load some blob dynamically using brcm_patchram
<pitti> ogra_: I don't actually see any change to bluez startup?
<ogra_> no, but to the device startup
<pitti> yeah, that's fine
<ogra_> if udev doesnt run at that time ueventd might steal the event
<pitti> ogra_: we need to do an udev coldplug run after starting udev (just like on the desktop/server if you have an initramfs)
<pitti> otherwise a lot more stuff will be broken anyway, so I suspect we already do that
<ogra_> hmm, i hope that doesnt slow us down ...
<pitti> well, we have a lot of udev rules there, including the ones in lxc-android-config
<pitti> they won't actually run if we don't coldplug udev :)
<ogra_> ok :)
<pitti> so it would be very weird if we don't do that already; also for device permissions, creating persistent storage/usb/etc. links
<ogra_> ah, right, that we do
<ogra_> (device permissions)
<pitti> ogra_: yeah, they will also run during coldplug, as on the phone all the devices are already there when you start udev (i. e. no hotplugging)
<pitti> ogra_: so in theeeory, if we write unit counterparts for the bluetooth-touch upstart jobs, it should just work
<pitti> in practice, it'll all break horribly initially, of course :)
<mpt> bdmurray, where are the âfailedâ colors used?
<mpt> I donât know if Iâve ever seen them before.
<xnox> kenvandine: mardy: hey! i'm poking ubuntu-system-settings, online-accounts, on the unity7 desktop. When i open-up "add u1 account" i just see a blank screen =(
<kenvandine> xnox, i don't think you should even see that on the desktop
<mardy> xnox: you are probably missing the U1 plugin. Let me see how it's called...
<Laney> It's greyed out for me
<xnox> kenvandine: i want to, though =)
<kenvandine> oh... in uss, not unity-control-center :)
<pitti> doko_, xnox: please ignore the utopic-adt failures for now; we are currently setting up autopkgtest for utopic, and will fix/retry these
<xnox> kenvandine: yeap, i want to see if qml/qt5 u1 works and try to somehow re-use it in the ucc with black magic.
<xnox> kenvandine: cause it's a pain to maintain python2-qt4-webkit on the dekstop images
<kenvandine> indeed
<mardy> xnox: it should just be account-plugin-ubuntuone
<xnox> mardy: not installed. installing. Strange that "u1" was listed in the "add-account view" even though i don't have it =/
<xnox> mardy: now it "just works" even without restarting uss =)
<mardy> xnox: yep, for some reason /usr/share/accounts/providers/ubuntuone.provider is provided by ubuntuone-credentials-common instead
<xnox> mardy: excellent this works now, thanks.
<xnox> Now on to the black magic of getting it to work with ucc
<mardy> xnox: yep, I'm afraid you are entering a minefield
<mardy> xnox: ucc is Gtk-based, so you'd have to use XEMBED
<kenvandine> haha
<xnox> mardy: that was my plan, indeed.
<mardy> xnox: which we are also using BTW in other plugins :-)
<xnox> mardy: oh really?! like which?
<seb128> xnox, mardy: bug #1287640 is the "provider is installed in common which leads to buggy entries"
<ubottu> bug 1287640 in ubuntuone-credentials (Ubuntu) "UbuntuOne account plugin does not work" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1287640
<xnox> mardy: or is it the other way around to get gtk plugins to show up in the qml app?
<mardy> xnox: most of them, except the empathy ones. Basically all those which are authenticated via OAuth (facebook, google, flickr, twitter)
<xnox> mardy: cool.... and u1 is not using OAuth because *reasons*
<mardy> xnox: because U1 is using OAuth 1.0 (not 1.0a or 2.0), or a variant of it
<mardy> xnox: indeed, if it used OAuth, making it work would be just a matter of setting the right data in the provider XML file
<mardy> xnox: I had this discussion several time with the U1 folks, but the idea was that migrating to a standard OAuth would be too much work
<mardy> xnox: your starting point should probably be http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~online-accounts/gnome-control-center-signon/trunk/files/head:/libaccount-plugin/
<mardy> xnox: the oauth-plugin.c file implements a subclass of ApPlugin, which authenticates via OAuth by embedding the window which will be created by signon-ui
<xnox> mardy: but not implementing 1.0a means that both U1 and Launchpad are vulnerable to the session-fixaction attack.
 * mardy googles, never heard of that thingie
<xnox> mardy: and i have managed to complete oauth authentication with 1.0a client against launchpad, simply specify any string as verifier.
<xnox> mardy: http://oauth.net/advisories/2009-1/
<xnox> mardy: essentially to exchange request-token for an access-token, one should supply "oauth_verifier" which is returned to the user upon authorizing request (and/or in the callback url)
<xnox> mardy: this mirrors the challenge - to verify that the same client that authorized access, exchanges the request-token.
<mardy> xnox: please get in touch with the U1 guys (dobey?), they'll certainly know more
<mjt> Hello.  Is it okay to add a package to Suggests: if it is only available in universe?  I remember it is not good to Recommend a package from universe, but how about Suggests?
<xnox> mjt: suggests is fair game.
<xnox> mjt: we drop things from recommends to suggests all the time, when we want to keep certain stacks in universe, and not get pulled into main.
<xnox> mjt: main is closed set of (build-depends, depends, recommends)
<mjt> so basically, one can use Suggests for everything, even for something not in archive? :)
<xnox> mjt: it's against debian policy to suggest something that is not in the archive. Or suggest non-free things in main.
<mjt> hm. Is it #ubuntu-devel, or #debian-devel? :)
<xnox> mjt: so if you do that, you'll get an RC bug in debian. But in ubuntu we don't have a concept of RC bugs, so although we have reports we don't currently have people actively investing time to enforce that part of debian policy.
<mjt> speaking of non-free things, suggests: is the only way to have, say, firmware
<xnox> mjt: surprisingly, debian-policy is still a requirement in the ubuntu, sans were we explicitly diverged / applied changes.
<mjt> sure, hence the smile at the end of my statement
<xnox> mjt: firmware in ubuntu, can go into multiverse and/or restricted, since it's hardware-dependent blobs. And in ubuntu one can suggest those.
<xnox> mardy: looking at account-plugins -> all of them are oauth2.0. is there support for 1.0 at all?
<mardy> xnox: flickr and twitter use 1.0a
<cjwatson> pitti: Are you able to set up autopkgtest for utopic?  Would be nice to get results for the runs that were triggered by binutils
<pitti> cjwatson: jibel and I are working on that furiously :)
<pitti> cjwatson: http://d-jenkins.ubuntu-ci:8080/view/Utopic/view/AutoPkgTest/
<pitti> cjwatson: still some fallout, I'm on that
<pitti> like missing ddebs indexes for utopic-updates/security (just fixed), and some autopkgtest bugs
<pitti> cjwatson: jibel sent an RT to publish that to the public jenkins, too
<cjwatson> pitti: ah, right, thanks
<pitti> man, everything related to the DC feels like a tarpit today; must be release time :)
<xnox> mardy: right, so it looks like canonical-sso and launchpad-oauth are two different beasts. launchpad-oauth uses standard 1.0 way to request token, whereas canonical-sso does not.
<dobey> xnox: launchpad doesn't use standard oauth 1.0 so much
<dobey> xnox: and the u1 plug-in isn't using the oauth plug-in, it's a custom plug-in that talks to the sso v2 api
<dobey> xnox: the gtk+ online-accounts UI requires providing a plug-in written in gtk+ for UI, and we only have a qml UI, so it doesn't work under unity-control-center; you have to use system-settings to add/manage a u1 account in uoa
<bdmurray> mpt: here - https://errors.ubuntu.com/retracers-results/
<xnox> dobey: under https://launchpad.net/~xnox/+oauth-tokens one totally uses bog standard oauth 1.0 with https://launchpad.net/+request-token , https://launchpad.net/+authorize-token, https://launchpad.net/+access-token OAuth 1.0 endpoints.
<xnox> dobey: e.g. launchpadlib and all scripts that drive launchpad use it (e.g. syncpackage, requestsync, import-bug-from-debian, etc.)
<xnox> dobey: where is sso v1 api docs?
<xnox> dobey: and how come sso v2 doesn't provide a normal oauth 1.0 api?
<xnox> dobey: or oauth 2.0 api...
<dobey> xnox: yes, but launchpad doesn't quite follow the oauth spec exactly. the oauth plug-in in UOA doesn't work with getting a token on launchpad.net (i made a plug-in to try it :)
<dobey> xnox: oauth api is separate from sso api
<dobey> xnox: sso just doesn't provide an oauth api at all
<xnox> dobey: is oauth api available on sso.... oh *damn*
<xnox> dobey: well, i may have a merge proposal against launchpad and python-requests-oauthlib to make it standard compliant ;-)
<dobey> xnox: i'm not sure where sso v1 api docs are; it's discouraged to use it
<xnox> dobey: at the moment +access-token page must use "body" signature type, instead of header. And i have merge proposal to fix that.
<dobey> xnox: the problem with launchpad mostly, is that it doesn't use a consumer key, iirc
<xnox> dobey: nah, that works just fine. One specifies any, with no secret. and launchpad just accepts any.
<xnox> dobey: do you have that UOA plugin around? i wonna try it against my launchpad dev instance.
<dobey> i don't know, i'll have to look
<xnox> ideally canonical-sso would support oauth api for requesting a token.
<dobey> xnox: no need to convince me. i would â¥ oauth2 support
<xnox> dobey: no, no, no =) oauth1 api for requesting tokens ;-)
<xnox> dobey: oauth2 is *evil* =)
<dobey> no
<dobey> oauth1 is evil
<xnox> dobey: "When compared with OAuth 1.0, the 2.0 specification is more complex, less interoperable, less useful, more incomplete, and most importantly, less secure." http://hueniverse.com/2012/07/26/oauth-2-0-and-the-road-to-hell/
<xnox> dobey: a whole bunch of authors withdrew their names and association from oauth 2.0....
<xnox> dobey: oauth 2.0 has one benefit - easy client code.
<dobey> oauth 2 has lots of benefits
<dobey> not just easy client code
<dobey> well, oauth any version is evil; but oauth 2 is slight less evil for what we're doing
<sergiusens> xnox: I'm an oauth newbie, but are you looking for something like this? curl -H "Content-Type: application/json" -X POST -d '{"mail": "email", "password": "password", "token_name": "mytokenname", "otp": "2fa"}' https://login.ubuntu.com/api/v2/tokens/oauth
<xnox> sergiusens: yeah, i have reference to that. that's canonical-sso specific api to get u1 tokens.
<xnox> sergiusens: although it returns an oauth 1.0 token, that's not how oauth 1.0 spec mandates to create tokens.
<sergiusens> xnox: yeah; sso isn't fully oauth compliant; you can talk to nessita or pindonga for details I guess
<dobey> xnox: it returns a token that is compatible with oauth 1.0; it is not an oauth token :)
<dobey> it's an sso token
<dobey> and signed requests are oauth compatible
<xnox> dobey: the devil is in the details =) fun
<xnox> dobey: duck-typing for the win =)))
<dobey> oauth 2 would be great though, so i can throw away 90% of the code in ubuntuone-credentials, and we can avoid having a consumer_secret on the client, and etc etc
<dobey> xnox: though, what are you trying to do? replace ubuntu-sso-client in 14.10 with the UOA stuff?
<xnox> dobey: yeah.
<xnox> dobey: at least such that login works, possibly without signup. I could refactor ubiquity's ubuntuone plugin into accounts plugin.
<dobey> xnox: maybe fix the UOA gtk+ UI to allow embedding the qml plug-ins, and not require gtk+ ones
<xnox> dobey: exploring that as well with xembed type of things.
<xnox> dobey: but that is kind of against mir strategy.... or does xembed work under mir? =/
<dobey> xnox: well, afaik the webkit view for the oauth plug-ins is just xembedded
<xnox> dobey: correct.
<dobey> xnox: are we going to keep having two separate system settings apps when we swtich to mir?
<dobey> xnox: or will we just use the ubuntu-system-settings then?
<xnox> dobey: no idea... i just want to kill python2-qt4-webkit on the desktop, with least amount of effort possible.
<dobey> xnox: port ubuntu-sso-client to qt5? :)
<dobey> xnox: fwiw, i don't think it's using anything that is no longer in qt5, but i don't really know where to begin with porting a python app from qt4 to qt5
<dobey> xnox: alternatively, we could possibly bring back the gtk+ UI instead, and then kill the qt UI
 * dobey thinks the gtk+ UI was much nicer anyway
<xnox> dobey: there was gtk+ UI?! where?
<dobey> xnox: there used to be one yes. many releases ago
<xnox> dobey: ubuntu-sso-client porting to qt5 is not going to happen, because that needs python3 porting as well, which falls apart in twisted not twisting well under python3.
<xnox> dobey: do you at all recall which release? or like a package name or some such?
<dobey> xnox: i was wondering about the python3 thing. i saw mark's blog mentioned "finally dropping python2" but i don't see that happening unless we pull software-center out of the default install
<xnox> dobey: well.... lenses replace software-center, no?! =)
<xnox> dobey: but once ubuntuone stuff at the moment is the biggest python2 chunk on the desktop, which we have to sort out.
<dobey> xnox: scopes? sure, when we switch to unity8 and only support click installs :)
<dobey> xnox: right, software-center and ubuntu-sso-client is the sticking python2 bit, afaik (not sure if there's anything else using it still)
<xnox> dobey: oh right.
<xnox> dobey: and we have mvo back, and he can port software-center quickly =) or something-rather.
<xnox> dobey: there is myon qt store in kubuntu, we can use that.
<xnox> dobey: there is also kylin software-center in qt, which would fit on ubuntu desktop right in.
<dobey> muon you mean?
<dobey> hmm
<dobey> do those both use ubuntu-sso-client? or do they do their own login thing?
<cjwatson> pitti: autopkgtest> I see there's a testbed error of some kind on binutils/i386
<mvo> xnox: heh :) wasn't the plan to use unity exclusively instead of s-c ?
<xnox> mvo: "the plan" is one thing, unicorns is a different thing =)
<xnox> dobey: muon uses ubuntu-sso-client, kylin doesn't use anything i believe.
<dobey> kylin doesn't support ratings/reviews?
<xnox> dobey: hey support alternative archive with packages not from archive.ubuntu.com...
<dobey> mvo: come back in two years, we de aren't installing debs any more :)
<dobey> wtf i can't type
<dobey> s/we de/when we/g
<mvo> dobey, xnox: heh :)
<xnox> dobey: http://goo.gl/vRCzkk
<dobey> xnox: u-s-c supports alternative archives too; that's what PPAs are
<xnox> dobey: you haven't seen kylin store yet, have you?! =)
<xnox> dobey: i am not quite sure why a new one was written, let me paste you a screenshot.
<dobey> no, but i'm also not in china :)
<xnox> dobey: http://people.canonical.com/~xnox/kylin-store.png
<mvo> xnox: woah
<sergiusens> that looks... interesting
<dobey> omg
<dobey> lol @ dota though
 * highvoltage hopes that's even in the archives but is afraid to ask
<xnox> highvoltage: furthermore it installs packages not from the archive =)
<mvo> it does *what*?
<highvoltage> scary.
<highvoltage> and weird considering that it's an official flavour?  are they still?
<dobey> xnox: where is it installing them from?
<mdeslaur> they have their own repo that was approved by the tech board
<dobey> oh
<dobey> doesn't ubuntu gnome do that as well, with a ppa?
<mpt> bdmurray, I suggest using exactly the same colors for â(failed)â as for â(by 12.04 standards)â
<pitti> cjwatson: yep, on my radar
 * highvoltage frowns at ubuntu kylin and ubuntu gnome
<pitti> cjwatson: it timed out, pretty much everything is dog slow today :/
<pitti> I'll see how to avoid that
<mvo> makes me wonder why their http is listening on port http://archive.ubuntukylin.com:10006 but well :)
<ogra_> well, at least it has a roof ... so you wont get wet when it rains
<mvo> pfff :P
<dobey> anyway, that is too weird.
<xnox> highvoltage: see tech-board resolutions, it's installing from a ppa mirror, thus packages are build in a ppa singed by a canonical key, which is stored in launchpad.
<xnox> mvo: yeah, 10006 was inquired about....
<highvoltage> xnox: yeah but it just doesn't feel right, it's like it goes against the Ubuntu way (if that's even a thing)
<highvoltage> xnox: for example, they have non-free software in their main repository: http://archive.ubuntukylin.com:10006/ubuntukylin/pool/main/w/wps-office/
<Laney> It's supposed to be analogous to the Canonical partner archive
<NikTh> pitti: Hello
<highvoltage> Laney: does the system make it even vaguely easy for the users to identify that they're installing non-free software when installing from that archive?
<NikTh> pitti: I think you should consider to update the systemd PPA for Utopic Unicorn. What's your thoughts ?
<Laney> highvoltage: I can't read the language to tell what that software centre is saying, I'm afraid
<mdeslaur> highvoltage: does software-center?
<highvoltage> mdeslaur: that's why I very carefully chose the word "vaguely", at least in software-center you have to enable the partner archive manually and you can read up on what it's about
<mdeslaur> highvoltage: well, the extras.ubuntu.com repo is enabled by default
<mdeslaur> and there's non-free stuff in there
<Laney> There sure shouldn't be
<highvoltage> mdeslaur: when did exrtas.ubuntu.com start accepting non-free packages?
<dobey> i thought extras went away
<dobey> oh i guess not
<mdeslaur> well, maybe I'm wrong, one sec
<dobey> mdeslaur: i'd think if non-free stuff was in extras, the ARB wold be failing at its job, no?
<pitti> NikTh: no, I won't -- I'll upload the PPA contents to utopic :)
<pitti> NikTh: I tested it quite a bit today with just upstart, and I didn't see any breakage
<pitti> NikTh: I'm now also running my workstation with systemd as pid 1, also working quite well; this exposes problems much better (I fixed bluetooth, lxc is broken, etc.)
<NikTh> pitti: Yes, you have fixed it I guess. I added the PPA again today and I did not notice the problem. I upgraded to Utopic yesterday and I added your PPA manually ;)
<pitti> NikTh: yep, just keep the PPA source as "trusty", it'll work fine on utopic (the only real change is base-files so far..)
<mdeslaur> highvoltage, dobey: ah, sorry, the non-free software isn't installed from extras
<NikTh> pitti: so , is there a plan for systemd as default system management daemon in 14.10 ?
<NikTh> pitti: and how you made that change "as pid 1" ?
<pitti> NikTh: yes, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/core-1403-systemd-transition
<pitti> NikTh: as I wrote in the blog, set init=/lib/systemd/systemd in grub
<NikTh> pitti: Ok, I have done this already :)
<NikTh> pitti:  Now I want to test nvidia drivers , I had a problem on install. Installation should be done in upstart mode. I guess the packaging should be change, because it requires upstart.
<dobey> mdeslaur: right. just partner and multiverse, no?
<pitti> NikTh: please report such things and tag it with "systemd-boot", so that we have a nice list
<pitti> NikTh: i. e. that it appears on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=systemd-boot
<pitti> NikTh: but please label the title with [systemd] to make it clear it doesn't affect default ubuntu
<NikTh> pitti: OK.
<directhex> $ dpkg -c buildroot/pool/main/c/curl/curl-udeb_7.35.0-1ubuntu2_amd64.udeb
<directhex> drwxr-xr-x root/root         0 2014-04-01 18:44 ./
<directhex> whoops
<mdeslaur> dobey: no, software-center installs specials PPAs for the non-free software that's in it
<dobey> mdeslaur: oh, you mean for the "for purchase" apps?
<mdeslaur> dobey: yeah, or the for purchase $0 apps
<dobey> right, yeah, those are all magical private PPAs
<dobey> doesn't matter if the app is "free software" or not
<mdeslaur> right
<slangasek> seb128: what makes you think bug #1311488 is a freetype issue, rather than a driver issue?
<ubottu> bug 1311488 in freetype (Ubuntu) "Missing letters " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1311488
<infinity> " The problem is intermittent - I just rebooted and there are
<infinity> no missing letters."
<infinity> ^-- I'd be inclined to blame that on heat.
<infinity> Overheating video cards do awesomely confusing things.
<infinity> Well, heat or bad driver that corrupts video memory the same fun ways that heat does (the Intel driver has been infamous for this in the past)
<pitti> cjwatson: binutils is PASS now, so http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html is now only complaining on the freeze and some unblock request version mismatch
<pitti> jibel: hm, http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html has "lintian PASS", but it actually failed (on an actual error)
<pitti> it's fine to let it propagate in that case, it's certainly not a binutils regression; but formally it should hold it back
<infinity> pitti: Yeah, I'd like to sort out why we're getting passes for fails before we just let things go.
<infinity> pitti: Pretty please. :P
<pitti> hm, and now on reload, lintian is gone altogether
<pitti> infinity: yeah, sounds like the same old sorting bug that jibel was working on
<infinity> pitti: passes fall off the display after a bit, IIRC.
<pitti> infinity: they are not meant to, though
<infinity> (Though, not sure why)
<infinity> pitti: I've certainly seen that with eglibc in the past, where my list starts out with hundreds and ends up with only a few.
<pitti> infinity: right, but it's still not meant to fall off, AFAIK
<NikTh> pitti: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-prime/+bug/1312255 (done) :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1312255 in nvidia-prime (Ubuntu) "[systemd] nvidia-prime package failed to install due to missing upstart service" [Undecided,New]
<pitti> NikTh: thanks
<infinity> pitti: Kay, so.  Blocking opening on this is probably silly, if none of these bugs are regressions, but we really need to make fixing the autopkgtest<->britney interface a top priority.
<pitti> infinity: fully agreed
<infinity> pitti: Since the whole point of that integration is lost if it doesn't work.
<infinity> (see the two doko-induced breakages last cycle that should have been caught)
<infinity> Not to pick on doko, he just happened to be the lucky one who tricked adt-britney twice. :P
<pitti> it has happened way more often, just with less catastrophic results
<infinity> pitti: Indeed, I don't doubt that for a second.
<infinity> kirkland: Your vigpg.1 manpage appears to be for wifi-status...
<doko> barry, could you point mvo to the way how to install into the system dist-packages using a virtual env?
<stokachu> stgraber: ping
<stgraber> stokachu: pong
<stokachu> stgraber: is it even remotely possible to access /dev/kvm for something like nova-compute running inside an lxc container?
<stokachu> nova-compute provides an lxc virt-type but i haven't researched that yet
<stgraber> stokachu: have you been talking with zul? :)
<stokachu> stgraber: haha yea
<stokachu> stgraber: he's helping me with some openstack specifics for a project
<stgraber> getting the same question twice in 30s seemed like too much of a coincidence :)
<stokachu> haha
<stokachu> zul: :)
<stgraber> so as I was telling him, so long as the kvm module is loaded on the host, /dev/kvm should be accessible from the container by default
<stgraber> I suspect you may have more problems with libvirt than kvm itself
<stokachu> so /dev/kvm exists on the host
<stgraber> I believe hallyn did get that all to work in the past, unfortunately he's not around this week
<stokachu> should i install the virt specfici stuff
<stgraber> stokachu: ah, if it doesn't exist in the container, just mknod it
<stokachu> ok lemme try that
<stokachu> stgraber: ok it added it and i got a little farther
<stokachu> back to the charm stuff, thanks
<stgraber> np
<seb128> slangasek, lack of knowledge of the font rendering stack?
<seb128> slangasek, I though that those issues were more likely to be freetype/fontconfig problems
<slangasek> seb128: ok, well when glyphs randomly go missing, I've only ever seen that be a video driver problem
<seb128> but that was poor guess from my part maybe, so feel free to reassign where you see fit
<seb128> k, good to know
<infinity> slangasek: driver, or random memory corruption from heat (as I mentioned above).
<infinity> slangasek: The user probably just needs to remove the gum from his fan. :P
<slangasek> infinity: I'll let tseliot sort that out
<barry> infinity: are you SRU'ing a backport of debootstrap into trusty (for the utopic symlink)?
<infinity> barry: I hadn't prepped one but, yes, I should do so for all supported releases.
<barry> infinity: cool, thanks
<infinity> barry: (Though, doing it to lucid is a bit of an unfortunate lie, as you can't debootstrap trusty on lucid right now, so maybe I'll leave that one out)
<barry> infinity: i mostly only care about trusty anyway :)
<infinity> s/right now/ever/ since debootstrap doesn't look at post-release pockets, so fixing the packages that aren't gzip in trusty base is something we can't do now. :/
<infinity> Oh, wait.  Yeah.  lucid is probably already a lie if someone added the trusty link.  My brain wasn't even thinking utopic.
<infinity> barry: I'll do utopic symlinks for precise->trusty now.
<barry> infinity: rock on
 * infinity curses himself for having let the gzip base thing fall off his TODO before release, since it's literally unfixable now.
<slangasek> the what?
<infinity> slangasek: When dpkg started defaulting to xz, there was a rough concensus that packages in the debootstrap set should be compressed with gzip, which requires manual intervention.  Some were fixed, some were not.
<slangasek> hmm
<infinity> slangasek: The argument was so that debootstrap on other OSes would be less painful to use, but the other side effect is that lucid can't debootstrap trusty.
<slangasek> ah
<infinity> slangasek: Anyhow, can't fix it now, without overhauling deboostrap to understand post-release pockets (perhaps a good thing to do anyway, but not something worth backporting to lucid), so just a bit of an "oh darn", I guess.
<slangasek> yeah, not seeing the cost/benefit there coming out in our favor
<doko> barry, you told me that you were able to install with pip into the system location
<barry> doko: that was with system pip in a virtualenv
<barry> i.e. if ensurepip's pip wasn't used
<doko> barry, so using system pip in a virtualenv lets you install packages into the system location, not into the virtualenv?
<barry> doko: right.  that's why we can't use system pip in an venv
<barry> we have to use ensurepip's pip
<barry> doko: also, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python3.4/+bug/1290847/comments/15
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1290847 in python3.4 (Ubuntu) "pyvenv fails due to mising ensurepip module" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<doko> but people *can* do that now, so we should disable that
<barry> doko: i think the most reasonable thing is to re-enable ensure pip, so that bundled pip gets installed in the venv.  then people will use that instead of trying to use system pip
<barry> if they activate the vm
<barry> if they don't, then they're not in a venv ;)
<doko> barry, sure, we have to build the wheels for that
<barry> doko: read dstufft's comment.  that's not going to work
<doko> barry, read the debian policy, including the wheels is not going to work
<barry> doko: we had a long discussion about that over in #d-p yesterday.  i'm not so sure it's a clear violation of policy, especially if dstufft gives us a script to rebuild the bundled whls, which he promised to do
<barry> doko: specifically, it probably doesn't violate $4.13 of policy
<barry> the whls are just zips of the source, and with dstufft's promised script, we can always recreate them if we need to
<barry> dstufft makes a compelling argument for why rewheeling + unvendorizing is never going to work
<doko> barry, wheels are not data
<doko> and we have to remove the windows binaries, so source code included
<barry> doko: can we take this over to #d-p and pull dstufft in?
<infinity> pitti: Did we get anywhere on adt-britney sadness?
<infinity> pitti: Everything now seems to be stuck in RUNNING, which is just as confusing...
<zyga> xnox: are debian syncs now open again?
<infinity> zyga: autosyncing will happen soonish.
<zyga> infinity: thanks
<hggdh> bdmurray: hi, you might want to have a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1311895
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1311895 in gettext (Ubuntu) "0.18.3.1 can fail when tracing due to missing files" [Medium,Triaged]
<hggdh> bdmurray: it will only affect people trying to build coreutils from git source on 14.04. Not very usual, but might be bothersome when it happens
<infinity> hggdh: Looks like https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=730321
<ubottu> Debian bug 730321 in autopoint "autopoint: bootstrapping coreutils: autopoint from gettext 0.18.3.1 fails" [Important,Fixed]
<hggdh> infinity: indeed, thank you. I wil add the debian bug to the report
<infinity> hggdh: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7325581/ <-- This was the Debian fix.
<infinity> hggdh: The upstream fix ignores one more, so maybe that's better to pull in.
<hggdh> infinity: thanks. I will try to work on it this weekend
<infinity> hggdh: I can do it right now, if you want to validate it.
<hggdh> infinity: perfect, for that I do have the time :-)
<infinity> hggdh: Fix uploaded.
<infinity> bdmurray: If you're around, want to review that gettext in the trusty queue so hggdh can go verification-happy?
<infinity> hggdh: And uploaded to utopic as well (by way of a merge).
<hggdh> infinity: right now installing two trusty VMs, one trusty itself, and one that will go utopic
<infinity> arges: *poke*
#ubuntu-devel 2014-04-25
<arges> yes?
<psusi> just saw a question on askubuntu about installing the gdb64 package on amd64 and it wants ot remove a bunch of important packages.  It looks like this is an i386 only binary with no multi-arch header, so why is it even coming up as installable from amd64?
<ari-tczew> infinity: hey, are you gonna to get debootstrap updated in trusty (incl. utopic's script), as well?
<Logan_> [13:55:46]  <barry> infinity: are you SRU'ing a backport of debootstrap into trusty (for the utopic symlink)?
<Logan_> [14:00:56]  <infinity> barry: I hadn't prepped one but, yes, I should do so for all supported releases.
<pitti> infinity: yes, we found out why, missing .result files; we have them now, but they are broken
<ScottK> ari-tczew: It's in the queue for ubuntu-sru review.
<pitti> infinity: so what needs to happen now is to roll out current lp:auto-package-testing to tachash and poke all the jenkins jobs to update themselves; I can't do that unfortunately, needs jibel
<jayaura> I believe this is a proper channel to ask. How do I get information on a kworker thread? I hdd is continuously being written by a kworker every second. I disabled journalling.
<jayaura> How can i get more info on this kworker? On who's behalf is it working ?
<jayaura> And, oh yes I'm on trusty
<jayaura> its /proc/<TID>/stack doesnt give any useful information.
<jayaura> [<ffffffff810846f1>] worker_thread+0x1d1/0x410
<jayaura> [<ffffffff8108b312>] kthread+0xd2/0xf0
<jayaura> [<ffffffff8172637c>] ret_from_fork+0x7c/0xb0
<jayaura> [<ffffffffffffffff>] 0xffffffffffffffff
<alkisg> Hi, in 12.04+ the keyboard layout switching is managed by unity-settings-daemon instead of XKB. Due to Xorg limitations, unity-settings-daemon doesn't get notified when the layout switching shortcut is pressed inside full-screen applications that grab the keyboard (e.g. LP bug #388547).
<alkisg> The result is that now that apps like `tuxpaint --fullscreen` etc are completely unusable for non-latin environments.
<alkisg> In 12.04 we did manage to work around that issue by telling gnome not do manage the keyboard layout, but allow XKB to do it. In 14.04 that's not doable anymore because of unity-settings-daemon regressions.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 388547 in X.Org X server "Volume keys don't work inside a full-screen game" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/388547
<alkisg> My question is, if I spend a fair bit of time trying to file bugs and send patches in that direction (let XKB manage the keyboard), is Ubuntu willing to accept them even if Gnome does not? Or should I try to solve that upstream with Gnome first?
<dholbach> good morning
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Hi Daniel!
<dholbach> hi GunnarHj
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Thanks for your help yesterday with bug 1310738.
<ubottu> bug 1310738 in Ubuntu "Please sync svtplay-dl from debian unstable" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1310738
<GunnarHj> dholbach: Is there any chance that it can be queued to trusty as well, or would that need to be some kind of SRU?
<dholbach> GunnarHj, hum - not sure how we go about adding new packages to stable releases
<dholbach> ^ does anyone know? pitti maybe?
<pitti> dholbach: it either needs to be synced to trusty-proposed *only* and then binary-copied to unicorn (not the usual approach though), or synced to utopic and uploaded as ~trusty to trusty-proposed (the usual approach)
<pitti> GunnarHj: ^
<GunnarHj> dholbach, pitti: Thanks pitti. Sounds like it would be easiest then to remove it from the utopic queue and queue it to trusty instead.
<pitti> the SRU team might still insist on building the utopic sync with the utopic tool chain
<GunnarHj> pitti: Is "and uploaded as ~trusty to trusty-proposed" something else (aka easier) than the SRU process?
<pitti> GunnarHj: no, that is the SRU process (and it's an SRU either way)
<GunnarHj> pitti: Ok, I see. So then I suppose I'd better wait until it gets approved to utopic, and then SRU it.
<GunnarHj> dholbach: ^ So I just wait and apply for an SRU later on.
<dholbach> ok cool
<dholbach> brb
<dholbach> @pilot on
<udevbot> (pilot (in|out)) -- Set yourself an in or out of patch pilot.
<dholbach> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Trusty Final released! | Archive: Limbo | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> trusty | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: xnox, dholbach
<pitti> cjwatson, infinity: is http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html stuck or just busy?
<cjwatson> pitti: It only cycles when the archive changes, normally
<cjwatson> (Which is a slight problem for autopkgtests, but usually the archive is busy enough that it doesn't matter ...)
<cjwatson> pitti: Do you need a manual run?
<pitti> cjwatson: ah, ok
<pitti> cjwatson: we just fixed a couple of autopkgtest bugs and the results files (which were making everything appear as RUNNING)
<cjwatson> pitti: OK, let me run it manually
<pitti> cjwatson: we just retriggered the worls, so maybe in an hour or so, when we have a bunch of results?
<pitti> world, too
<cjwatson> Oh, well, I already started it
<cjwatson> But sure
<dholbach> seb128, do you know if there is a reason we never updated gnome-bluetooth?
<seb128> dholbach, "never"?
<dholbach> sorry, I meant "since 3.8.something"
<seb128> dholbach, the newer versions require bluez5
<dholbach> ahhh ok
<seb128> which is a big transition
<seb128> why?
<seb128> do you need something from 3.10?
<dholbach> I was just looking at a SRU bug regarding a microsoft mouse or keyboard
<seb128> k
<dholbach> 3.12
<seb128> we can probably backport selected changes
<seb128> but updating is blocked on bluez
<dholbach> and I helped fix a bug like that some time ago already
<dholbach> ok, I see
<dholbach> makes sense
<seb128> if that's a list of devices in some xml/test list, we should backport the update
<seb128> though I think I remember they slightly changed the format, so we might need to tweak or backport code changes as well
<dholbach> no worries - I'll just take care of the single fix right now
<seb128> thanks
<dholbach> seb128, do you know if anyone had a look at bluez5 already?
<seb128> dholbach, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bluez/+bug/1162781
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1162781 in bluez (Ubuntu) "bluez package out of date, 5.3 is available" [Wishlist,Triaged]
<dholbach> aha!
<dholbach> thanks
<seb128> yw
<dholbach> seb128, you still know bug numbers by heart! :)
<seb128> that's likely going to happen this cycle
<seb128> dholbach, lol, I still use the awesome bar in an efficient way rather ;-)
<doko> pitti, jibel: are gcc-4.9 autopkg tests really running=
<doko> ?
<cjwatson> pitti: Oh, proposed-migration crashed
<cjwatson> In adt-britney
<cjwatson> pitti: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/log/2014-04-25/09:23:43.log
<cjwatson> doko: ^- hence out of date
<jibel> cjwatson, fixed in r341
<cjwatson> pulled, thanks
<cjwatson> rerunning
<jibel> doko, test crashed, re-running
<cjwatson> pitti: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html - happier?
<doko> jibel, the subversion fail looks like an infrastructure problem
<pitti> cjwatson: thanks; we might need a re-run in a bit
<pitti> doko: you mean the libapache2-mod-svn install failure?
<pitti> doko: that looks like the kind of transient failures with arches being out of sync, I'll retry it
<doko> what should be out-of-sync at this time?
<doko> cjwatson, infinity: any reason to keep the general freeze block?
<doko> ahh, ruby-defaults is in place
<pitti> doko: sorry, not out of sync; the postinst failed, not depends:
<cjwatson> doko: I'm waiting for us to be sure of the autopkgtest stuff before dropping it
<doko> cjwatson, sure, but libreoffice seems to be bit oversized for a test of libgcc1 ...
<cjwatson> I mean in general
<cjwatson> Like, making sure that we're actually picking up failures, which we weren't earlier
<pitti> cjwatson: I think now-ish would be a good time for re-running britney; the queue is empty now, just testing a few stragglers
<doko> cjwatson, sure, but how can you see this while the general block request i still in place?
<pitti> to see the pass/fail/running for gcc
<pitti> oh, no cdbs merge to do this cycle -- a first!
<pitti> tribute to dh 9, I guess :)
<cjwatson> doko: autopkgtest output is visible even with a block
<cjwatson> pitti: running
<pitti> doko: hmm, so both https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/utopic-adt-subversion/3/ARCH=amd64,label=adt/console and https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/utopic-adt-subversion/3/ARCH=i386,label=adt/console still fail in libapache2-mod-svn's postinst
 * pitti sees if he's got enough bandwidth in the train to try and reproduce in a schroot
<pitti> ... meh, slow
<pitti> cjwatson: mind running britney again? everything except apport and eglibc has finished
<pitti> there's still an awful lot of RUNNING on current excuses; I wonder if it's just out of date, or our .result files are still buggy
<jibel> pitti, I think that the first run from this morning with the buggy output
<jibel> pitti, I'll retry unar to verify
<pitti> e. g. ceph is PASS, unar's test never succeeded (also in trusty), it's broken
<pitti> jibel: no, cjwatson restarted it an hour ago
<pitti> jibel: thanks (can't look at logs, keeps hanging)
<jibel> pitti, but unar for example didn't run since 0701UTC
<jibel> which before the fix
<jibel> +is
<pitti> ah right, I misremembered; https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/job/trusty-adt-unar/? is all green
<jibel> pitti, it's all red but marked running
<pitti> jibel: http://d-jenkins.ubuntu-ci:8080/job/utopic-adt-unar/5/ARCH=i386,label=adt/console doesn't look like an infrastructure problem, though
<pitti> jibel: perhaps missing dependency?
<pitti> (which was installed in the bigger trusty VMs)
<jibel> pitti, it fails because there is an error on stderr "Unable to create time zone ..."
<pitti> yes, that's the error
<pitti> or rather, failure
<jibel> pitti, isn't it because the base VM is provisioned differently than in trusty?
<cjwatson> pitti: It ran by itself 12 minutes ago - is that enough?
<pitti> jibel: yes, surely; it's certainly not something liek a missing allow-stderr, as otherwise it would have failed ealier, too
<pitti> cjwatson: yes, I think so
<pitti> jibel: so http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html still has a lot of RUNNING for stuff which finished; still something wrong with *.results?
<jibel> pitti, that's all the tests that have been triggered before 0700
<jibel> pitti, I re-ran unar to check if reconciliation is correct now and will do the other if it's fine
<pitti> jibel: oh, ok; so we'll need to re-run ceph & friends?
<jibel> pitti, in utopic VM /etc/timezone starts with a comment, is it valid?
<jibel> pitti, if it is then it is a bug in unar testsuite
<pitti> jibel: ah, systemd's timedatectl also fails, I'm currently looking at that
<jibel> pitti, http://paste.ubuntu.com/7329429/
<pitti> jibel: hm, given we ship that kind of file in cloud images, I guess/hope it is..
<pitti> jibel: ah, in run-adt-test we copy the host's timezone into the VM, so we didn't notice
<pitti> or rather, we set "timezone: $TZ" there, while adt-buildvm-ubuntu-cloud just hardcodes "timezone: Etc/UTC"
<jibel> pitti, unar thinks otherwise. I added a comment in /etc/timezone and it returns a warning
<jibel> â« unar foo.zip
<jibel> foo.zip:
<jibel> Unable to create time zone for name: '# Created by cloud-init v. 0.7.5 on Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:03:29 +0000
<pitti> yes, timedatectl also fails on that
<pitti> actually no, it doesn't stumble over the comment, timedatectl is something else
<pitti> right, I need to filter out comments in that test
<pitti> ok, fixed in systemd
<pitti> jibel: I'm still not sure whether comments are legit there (and frankly it seems like unnecessarily making things hard for programs)
<pitti> jibel: but I think it's a good idea to copy the host's timezone like in run-adt-test, I'll do that
<kirkland> infinity: doh, thanks
<pitti> jibel: filed bug 1312701, will do that when I have bandwidth again (need cloud image for testing)
<ubottu> bug 1312701 in autopkgtest (Ubuntu) "VM builds: Copy host's timezone" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1312701
<jibel> pitti, so for unar the problem is in NSTimeZone.m in gnustep-base which loads /etc/timezone in a string and assumes it is the timezone.
 * zyga sees objc and wonders what happens in #ubuntu-devel
<kirkland> infinity: thanks a lot for that;  fix released
<cjwatson> pitti,jibel: So is this just test setup / individual test suite problems, and we're confident that the p-m integration is working now?
<jibel> cjwatson, I'm checking that tests marked RUNNING are leftover from this morning and going through the list of failures to confirm if they are problems in the testsuite or not
<rbasak> Where can I get old Debian binaries - that were in sid but now superceded and never released? I'd like to reproduce an upgrade bug.
<rbasak> Or do I need to rebuild them?
<cjwatson> snapshot.debian.org is your best bet
<rbasak> Ah - thanks.
<xnox> cjwatson: jibel: so comparing http://d-jenkins.ubuntu-ci:8080/view/Trusty/view/AutoPkgTest/ and http://d-jenkins.ubuntu-ci:8080/view/Utopic/view/AutoPkgTest/ there are "Red" tests in Trusty that are not at all present in "Utopic" view. Don't we want to trigger all tests against utopic, to have a baseline?
<xnox> eg cherrypy3, bzrtools missing, unless i'm failing at jenkins navigation.
<dholbach> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Trusty Final released! | Archive: Limbo | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> trusty | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: xnox
<zyga> hey, I just got http://paste.ubuntu.com/7329886/ (aptsources.distro.NoDistroTemplateException)
<zyga> I assume that's just missing integration, is that something I can easily patch locally?
<zyga> pitti: ^^ maybe you would know
 * zyga looks at apt sources
<xnox> zyga: /usr/share/python-apt/templates/Ubuntu.info is not updated yet.
<zyga> ah, thanks
<xnox> zyga: you can just use "devel" instead on utopic, until fixed.
<zyga> xnox: thanks
<xnox> although that also has other caveats.
<zyga> xnox: I noticed you uploaded a few packages to utopic yesterday
<zyga> xnox: can I just patch that file inline quickly?
<xnox> zyga: so 0.9.3.6 from unstable already has utopic.
 * zyga looks
<xnox> zyga: so we just need that.
<zyga> xnox: is that in proposed yet by any chance?
<xnox> zyga: no it's nowhere at the moment.
 * zyga gets the package from sid then
<zyga> xnox: I don't see 0.9.3.6 anywhere in sid, am I missing something?
<xnox> zyga: hence "nowhere at the moment" =) http://packages.qa.debian.org/p/python-apt.html it got uploaded < 6h ago
<xnox> zyga: and you know debian doesn't do dinstall every 5 minutes.
<zyga> yeah
<zyga> ok
<roadmr> cgregan: want to join? if you'd rather not on account of feeling not too well, it's ok: https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/calendar/YXJhLnB1bGlkb0BjYW5vbmljYWwuY29t.qdr2voggco0i1nc07alp84mokk
<tkamppeter> mdeslaur, jdstrand, I have released cups-filters 1.0.53 with some security fixes, see https://bugs.linuxfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1204, https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=871327.
<ubottu> bugs.linuxfoundation.org bug 1204 in cups-filters "cups-browsed: unsupported BrowseAllow value lets cups-browsed accept from all hosts" [Major,Resolved: fixed]
<ubottu> bugzilla.novell.com bug 871327 in Audits "AUDIT-0: cups browsed (code injection: CVE-2014-2707)" [Normal,New]
<rsalveti> xnox: I updated bug 1305315 and the issue is that the linker binary, created with our own toolchain, contains a procedure linkage table, when it shouldn't
<ubottu> bug 1305315 in gcc-i686-linux-android (Ubuntu) "Android container fails to start when built with the gcc-i686-linux-android toolchain" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1305315
<rsalveti> xnox: the linker itself can't have any plt
<rsalveti> now I need to find out how to debug this issue specifically, and understand why our toolchain is generating the plt for the linker binary
<xnox> rsalveti: yeah i saw the email updates, thanks a lot for debugging this. i have been dissecting aosp toolchain builds and there are a few patches and build-options that may be related to this.
<rsalveti> xnox: any patch or option you think we should try?
<rsalveti> if you have the links as well, that might be useful
<xnox> rsalveti: they don't however do a bootstrap, so it's a bit different (they use prebuild bionic.so =/)
<rsalveti> xnox: right, saw that as well
<pitti> jibel: in the train I updated adt-virt-qemu to copy the host's timezone; I roll that out now so that unar and friends will work
<cjwatson> pitti: Is that the last bit (ish)?  It'd be nice to be able to open
<jdstrand> tkamppeter: thanks
<cjwatson> jibel: How goes the audit?
<jibel> cjwatson, http://paste.ubuntu.com/7330086/ is the list of tests potentially failed because of the new testing env. I'm fixing the 2 first points. I am not sure about u-drivers-common and need a review from pitti if he hasn't already done so
<caribou> infinity: is it normal that lintian on  Debian build (makedumpfile) complains that ppc64el is an unknown architecture ?
<caribou> infinity: this is to remove the remaining delta b/w ubuntu & debian for makedumpfile
<ScottK> doko: FYI, the ruby2.1 maintainer accepted the changes I needed to make to get it to build in Ubuntu for Debian and the resulting sync is waiting in the queue.
<cjwatson> caribou: Yes, we haven't got round to teaching lintian about ppc64el yet; you can safely ignore that
<caribou> cjwatson: ok, thought so but just wanted to be sure; thanks
<cjwatson> jibel: OK, none of those feel like opening blockers to me - would you agree?
<pitti> jibel: rolled out, restarting systemd and unar
<infinity> caribou: Err, which version of lintian?
<infinity> caribou: That should be fixed in both sid and trusty.
<caribou> infinity: lemme check
<caribou> infinity: 2.5.10.3
<infinity> caribou: A version not shipped in any Ubuntu or Debian release.  Well done.
<infinity> caribou: Anyhow, 2.5.22 understands what ppc64el is, from trusty, sid, jessie, and wheezy-backports.
<caribou> infinity: paste.ubuntu.com/7330345/
<caribou> infinity: don't ask me where it comes from then
<infinity> caribou: That chroot needs an upgrade? :P
<infinity>  lintian | 2.5.22.1         | jessie            | source, all
<infinity>  lintian | 2.5.22.1         | sid               | source, all
<infinity> caribou: Alternately, ftp.fr could be months out of date, but that seems unlikely.
<caribou> infinity: most probably yes, I'm not up to date on my Debian VMs as I am with Ubuntu
<xnox> caribou: from France?
<caribou> xnox: yeah, that's where I live
<jibel> cjwatson, I agree
<xnox> caribou: =)))) bad joke for "where it comes from"
<caribou> xnox: :)
<pitti> jibel: ah, how did you whitelist linux? use a different -o option? (instead of /run/shm/)
<cjwatson> infinity: Anything else you know of before we open, given that autopkgtest should be OK now?
<pitti> jibel: I'll look into the $HOME thing
<xnox> caribou: in my ~/.sbuildrc i have "$run_lintian = 1;" that way lintian is run at the end of build with the right and up-to-date lintain, e.g. sid's at the end of sid build, precise at the end of precise build etc.
<cjwatson> Oh, I guess we should wait for the latest binutils to finish
<caribou> xnox: thanks; I'll take note of that
<infinity> cjwatson: If autopkgtest is okay, and doko signed off on his gcc-4.9 test results, I think we're good to open 'er up.
<cjwatson> infinity: ppc64el/lintian> ah, I was assuming that because the table of file(1) output wasn't up to date that the rest wasn't either; OK
<infinity> doko: Were you happy with your gcc-4.9 tests?
<doko> I always am
<infinity> cjwatson: lintian was just ages behind on a dpkg data import, we got that fixed in .22
<jibel> pitti, you built the base VMs with the default disk size?
<cjwatson> infinity: I definitely want to get binutils consistent first, but that shouldn't take long
<pitti> jibel: 4 GB, yes; can rebuild with a bigger one, but I thought that's what we used in the previous system too?
<cjwatson> infinity: But I guess we can drop the block-all source, leave things frozen until binutils is done, and then open
<infinity> doko: I didn't mean "are you generally content", I meant "did you look at and sign off on the testsuite output you were going to look at earlier" :P
<doko> yes, they are ok, besides the usual fall-out for the hardening default flags
<infinity> doko: Kay, cool.  Thanks.
 * cjwatson removes the freeze block
<k1l> hi there. i see some confusing information about the EOL of 12.10. was it the 18th april or is it some other date?
 * infinity wonders what's up with that subversion adt failure...
<infinity> rbasak: Can you look at that?
<infinity> k1l: I'll send out an email today.  It is extended by a tiny bit to give some overlap and unwind confusion between the 18mo->9mo support cycle change.
<infinity> k1l: But I don't mind people pretending it's already EOL and upgrading today. :P
<k1l> infinity: ok. there was some info ( idont get the source anymore) that it was the 18th april. i am fine with it already beeing EOL :)
<infinity> doko: Your gnat is unbuildable in the archive (build-deps on a version that doesn't exist).
<infinity> doko: 4.6, that is.
<doko> infinity, yeah, won't fix anymore
<doko> 4.9 looks fine
<kees> we need to turn on -fstack-protector-strong by default in gcc-4.9 :)
<seb128> slangasek, hey
<seb128> slangasek, you know freetype best around, do you think you could have a look to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/freetype/+bug/1310728 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/freetype/+bug/1310017
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1310728 in freetype (Ubuntu) "face_flags overridden, leading to double free" [High,Triaged]
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1310017 in gnome-settings-daemon (Ubuntu) "freetype 2.5.x broke rendering of the default Korean font" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<seb128> slangasek, they both point to an upstream commit each (the second needs small changes to apply correctly)
<seb128> slangasek, they seem issues worth trying to fix in the LTS, but I don't know enough about freetype to be confident uploading those (though I guess I could do basic testing and throwing it to proposed and see how it goes)
<infinity> kees: Is anyone else planning on using -strong by default, so we don't bear the sole burden of upstreaming fixes?
<infinity> kees: (Sounds like the sort of thing SUSE might do, for instance...)
<rbasak> infinity: looking
<infinity> rbasak: The failure isn't in the tests, but actually in libapache2-mod-svn being installed.  Which could be a testbed issue, or could be a dire critical bug in subversion or apache2. :P
<infinity> rbasak: Given the latter, definitely worth looking into.
<rbasak> ack
<kees> infinity: no one has 4.9 yet
<kees> infinity: but, fwiw, on a tiny subset of packages, chromeos has seen no problems.
<rbasak> Hmm. This dep8 test looks familiar :)
<rbasak> infinity: AFAICT, there's no problem in the archive itself. I can't make it break.
<infinity> rbasak: And, yet... https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Utopic/view/AutoPkgTest/job/utopic-adt-subversion/3/ARCH=amd64,label=adt/artifact/results/log
<rbasak> Yeah
<rbasak> Any idea why the log appears a bit corrupt?
<infinity> Does it?
<rbasak> Line 31
<rbasak> Uh
<rbasak> Line 287
<rbasak> Relatively numbering won't help :)
<infinity> rbasak: Well, that's the failure I'm talking about. :P
<rbasak> Or perhaps that's just stdout/stderr recombining wrong
<infinity> Yeah.
<infinity> i386 seems to fail similarly, though the log breaks differently.
<rbasak> http://paste.ubuntu.com/7330782/ is what I just tried (amd64 in lxc)
<rbasak> I did a dist-upgrade to utopic first
<rbasak> Not precisely the same as the test environment, but I can't see why it would be any different if there's a bug in the archive.
<infinity> Weirdly, I get a much larger set to install when I do it locally.
<infinity> I guess the adt chroots aren't as clean as mine.
<infinity> And yeah, doesn't break here.  Bother.
<infinity> pitti: HALP.
 * ogra_ sees bug 997737 and senses the next referendum dawning 
<ubottu> bug 997737 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Detroit is not in Canada, 12.04" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/997737
<rbasak> Unless it's an ordering thing.
<infinity> ogra_: Bah, close enough.
<ogra_> :)
<infinity> pitti: I can't reproduce https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Utopic/view/AutoPkgTest/job/utopic-adt-subversion/3/ARCH=i386,label=adt/artifact/results/log
<infinity> pitti: Is there any way of reproducing the exact state (a package list of installed packages in that environment might help, as well as the apt cmdline that I wish was echoed to the logs but isn't)
<infinity> jibel: ^
<jibel> infinity, I'm on it, I can reproduce it in the lab with autopkgtest/run-from-checkout subversion --- qemu cache/disks/adt-utopic-amd64-cloud.img
<infinity> jibel: Also, how do I go about getting the right creds/access to retry jobs, so I don't keep bugging other people?
<infinity> (Looks like a bunch failed due to a network blip or something causing DNS resolution failures)
<jibel> infinity, someone playing with interfaces on one of the machine. I brought it offline
<rbasak> infinity, jibel: I can't see why libapache2-mod-svn.postinst might fail, but if it does fail, it looks like it'll fail silently.
<rbasak> Doesn't look like it could be anything but apache2 packaging (dh_apache2 etc) if it is a bug there. I can't see one.
<infinity> rbasak: From the mangled output, it looked more likely that apache2 (or apache2-data) is failing...
<rbasak> infinity: right, but see the last few lines.
<infinity> But it's hard to tell, and without a reproducer I can play with locally, a bit of a mystery.
<rbasak> That makes me pretty sure it's libapache2-mod-svn.postinst. And that fits the (broken) line 287.
<infinity> Yeah, perhaps.
<rbasak> infinity, jibel: reproduced. I duplicated the unpack and configure ordering. I'll dig further.
<slangasek> seb128: I know enough about freetype to not be confident in any updates; please just do what you think is best :)
<seb128> slangasek, ok
<infinity> mvo: Does that double-seek bug in apt need to be backported to trusty?
<infinity> mvo: (Is that what was responsible for my sid chroots constantly failing to download Packages.xz sanely?)
<mvo> infinity: that would be possible, I have prepared a backport to trusty with it
<mvo> infinity: was collecting some more
<mvo> fixes
<infinity> mvo: Sure, it's probably not critical, but since the changelog claims it affects bzip as well (which is our default), I assume it's only a matter of time before I see it on trusty like I was seeing in sid... If that was the bug causing my issue. :P
<mvo> infinity: not sure if thats the case, but I will upload a fix nevertheless probably later tonight
<mvo> together with a fix for the apt tab completion
<mvo> but gtg for dinner first :)
 * mvo waves
<infinity> mvo: Happy eating.  I need breakfast, thanks for the reminder. :)
<mvo> haha
<mvo> happy eating to you as well then
<rbasak> infinity: it's a bug in apache2 packaging. Reproduced on sid, too. I'll file bugs.
<rbasak> In the meantime, I don't see an easy workaround (or a trivial solution to the bug).
<infinity> rbasak: Huh.  Weird that it never tripped until now. :/
<infinity> rbasak: I guess I'll just ignore the failure for now, since it seems touchy to reproduce.
<rbasak> It happens only if apache2 is unpacked and not configured when libapache2-mod-svn is configured.
<infinity> rbasak: That's a prefectly reasonable state to expect your deps to be in.
<rbasak> libapache2-mod-svn wants to enable dav_svn, which depends on dav, which is supplied by apache2 but not enabled.
<infinity> rbasak: The obvious solution to that would be to make a2invoke or whatever it's called be a trigger.
<infinity> rbasak: So all the calls run at the end of the dpkg run, instead of in postinst.
<rbasak> infinity: that would make any real problems fail in trigger though. Also, aren't triggers sort of optional, in that if dpkg decided to run triggers at different times, the bug would still occur?
<infinity> rbasak: The broken (and easy) solution would be to change all the deps to pre-deps.  Please warn them against that, as it makes apt's life WAY harder.
<rbasak> Well, libapache2-mod-svn doesn't even depend on apache2.
<infinity> Oh!
<rbasak> It only tries to enable the module if it thinks that it should (because apache2 is "installed")
<infinity> That's the bug, then.
<rbasak> Except it just checks for the presence of /usr/sbin/apache2-mainscript-helper, which is unpacked but apache2 is not configured in this case.
<infinity> If it depends on a module from apache2, it needs a packaging level dep as well, obviously.
<infinity> Sorry, I misread your ordering issue, I think.
<rbasak> It doesn't really need apache2, since they allow for /etc/apache2/ to be managed by you entirely.
<rbasak> (and for you to only use apache2-bin)
<rbasak> But if you *do* have apache2 installed, then installing a module will automatically enable it.
<infinity> Well, they allow, except for the postinst failing if not.
<infinity> Unless that's all well-guarded.
<rbasak> It is, mostly. Except for this.
<infinity> Curious problem, I guess.
<rbasak> If you don't have apache2 installed, then it's supposed to just not try to do anything in /etc/apache2/
<Logan_> when will the UDD branches start appearing for utopia?
<Logan_> *utopic
<rbasak> infinity, jibel: filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/apache2/+bug/1312854 (and Debian bug). Not sure how to fix - I'll see what Debian say.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1312854 in apache2 (Ubuntu) "dh-apache2 causes a postinst failure when a package depends on an apache2-bin provided module" [High,Triaged]
<pitti> infinity: there should be artifacts testbed-packages and <testname>-packages with the exact versions from that testrun
<pitti> jibel: so want me to re-do the VMs?
<pitti> for 50 GB, I mean?
<pitti> jibel: doing now
<doko> pitti, jibel: according to jenkins the binutils autopkg-test did succeed, however update_excuses isn't yet updated
<infinity> doko: Did you drop a multiarch patch or something from binutils?
<infinity> doko: https://jenkins.qa.ubuntu.com/view/Utopic/view/AutoPkgTest/job/utopic-adt-lintian/8/ARCH=amd64,label=adt/artifact/results/log
<infinity> doko: binaries-libc-link: ld: cannot find -lm
<infinity> doko: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7331812/
<infinity> doko: Looks everywhere except /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so
<infinity> doko: We can't open with that, who knows what fun things it might break. :/
<infinity> doko: Want to fix, or just remove that version from proposed?
<infinity> Oh, bah.  If we remove it, all the compiler deps break too.
<infinity> pitti, jibel: There's another case of tests myteriously falling off the list...
<infinity> pitti, jibel: binutils should have triggered lintian (and it did), but eventually, the lintian failure just stopped showing up there.
<infinity> pitti, jibel: If I hadn't caught it manually just now, that would have migrated.
<infinity> pitti, jibel: I don't know what's causing this, but it *needs* to be fixed, or adt-britney is pretty much useless. :/
<infinity> doko: In fact, it skips looking in /usr/lib/$triplet and /lib/$triplet
<infinity> doko: And ditto for local...
<infinity> doko: So, old output: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7332024/
<infinity> doko: And new output: http://paste.ubuntu.com/7331812/
<jobin_> Hey, all! I am trying to check the status of cron service using sudo service cron status as a non-privileged user on ubuntu 14.04 desktop 64-bit but get a status: Unknown job: cron error in return. However, if I do the same thing on ubuntu 12.04 64-bit desktop I get the appropriate result. I notice that I can check the status if I am root on 14.04. Why is this happening and how can I solve this?
<infinity> (base)adconrad@cthulhu:~$ sudo service cron status
<infinity> [sudo] password for adconrad:
<infinity> cron start/running, process 1106
<infinity> jobin_: Works for me?
<Laney> Is it using the user session? (Can't test that here)
<Laney> (i.e. does `status --system cron' work?)
<jobin_> infinity: Do you mean to say you can check the status without being root on 14.04?
<infinity> jobin_: You said you were using "sudo service cron status" which *is* root.
<infinity> jobin_: But if you're just using "status cron", then as Laney says, you need --system
<infinity> (base)adconrad@cthulhu:~$ status cron
<infinity> status: Unknown job: cron
<infinity> (base)adconrad@cthulhu:~$ status --system cron
<infinity> cron start/running, process 1106
<jobin_> infinity: This is what i get: sudo service cron status status: Unknown job: cron
<infinity> (base)adconrad@cthulhu:~$ service cron status
<infinity> status: Unknown job: cron
<infinity> (base)adconrad@cthulhu:~$ service cron status --system
<infinity> cron start/running, process 1106
<infinity> If you prefer that syntax.
<infinity> jobin_: You shouldn't need sudo/root at all, just --system
<jobin_> Laney: Yes, if I use --system as sudo service cron status --system then i get cron start/running, process 1152
<Laney> Job done
<jobin_> infinity: This is what I get for service cron status:   status: Unknown job: cron
<infinity> Why your sudo is behaving differently from mine in that regard is likely a local configuation thing.
<Laney> It's probably passing through UPSTART_SESSION
<infinity> Maybe you're intentionally preserving your environment, while mine scrubs it.
<infinity> Preserving environment in sudo generally considered harmful, part III.
<jobin_> infinity: Oh yes, I see that i had aliases sudo as sudo -E for using my proxy variables, however, I get status: Unknown job: cron for service cron status but cron start/running, process 1152 for sudo service cron status
<jobin_> Laney: I don't need to use --system for service cron status on 12.04, but have to on 14.04, why is that?
<Laney> You have an upstart instance running in your session in 14.04, which service is looking at in preference
<jobin_> Laney: I see that cron in /etc/init.d/cron is a soft link to upstart-jobs
<jobin_> Laney: No, I didn't get you there
<infinity> jobin_: You might want to add http_proxy to env_keep in /etc/sudoers instead of preserving your ENTIRE user environment with "sudo -E".
<infinity> jobin_: You're asking for trouble doing the latter.
<jobin_> infinity: yes, i would avoid that now on, but then how do you explain service cron status returning unknown job on 14.04 but not on 12.04?
<Laney> jobin_: http://ifdeflinux.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/upstart-user-sessions-in-ubuntu-raring.html is the feature
<Laney> If that's available, which it is by default in 14.04, then service will behave differently (try to use the 'user' upstart) by default
<infinity> jobin_: Because 14.04 uses user sessions, so "service" is looking at your user session, not the system session, and your user isn't running cron.
<infinity> jobin_: So, "sudo service" will default to the system session (if you don't leak your user env), and "service blah blah --system" will poke at the system session bypassing your user session.
<jobin_> infinity: And what did
<jobin_> the version before 14.04 use?
<infinity> jobin_: User sessions didn't exist in 12.04.  I think Laney's explained this more than well enough, given this isn't a support channel.
<jobin_> infinity & Laney: I had to explain this on askubuntu.com. Do you mind if I share this transcript publicly?
<ScottK> jobin_: It's already public and logged.
<infinity> It's already public.
<jobin_> infinity: great! Thanks!
<xnox> infinity: jobin_: initctl --system status cron
<xnox> infinity: ah, sorted.
<xnox> infinity: i however have a fix for "service" command to always look at system init, and not session.
<ScottK> Can autocrats required
<ScottK> Urgh.
<ScottK> Can autopkgtests require network access?
<xnox> ScottK: there is no such stanza in the spec - http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=autopkgtest/autopkgtest.git;a=blob_plain;f=doc/README.package-tests;hb=HEAD
<xnox> ScottK: i believe at the moment on ubuntu dep-8 runner there is network access to e.g. ubuntu mirror and a few similar resources, but not "general web"
<xnox> ScottK: and i think on debian dep-8 runner (ci.debian.net) there is network access.
<infinity> ScottK: autocrats can totally required.
<infinity> ScottK: I think you'll find (as xnox says) that it's implementation specific right now, but a needs-intarwebs thing might not be a bad control variable to add.
<infinity> ScottK: Then paranoid people can just skip those tests, while others can sort out a sane NAT or whatever strategy for their VMs.
<infinity> ScottK: (Feel free to proposed and/or provide patches)
<infinity> doko: I think I have your binutils thing fixed, will upload to Ubuntu and NMU to Debian as well, given the ickiness of the bug.
<xnox> infinity: but about autocrats.... i'm not sure "a 1940s British single-engined three-seat high-wing touring monoplane" scale well enough - do you think would just lego models do?
<infinity> xnox: That sounds more like a decepticrat.  Autocrats can't fly.
<xnox> infinity: \o/ re:binutils.
<xnox> "My Dad asked me last night why I carry my 1911 in the house, what am I afraid of? I looked him straight in the eye and said, âThe Goddamn Decepticons.â He laughed, I laughed, the toaster laughed, I shot the toaster. It was a good time."
<xnox> infinity: but when binutils would finish building & autopackage-tests finish -> you wouldn't still be around to open the archive, would you?
<infinity> xnox: I will be.
<infinity> xnox: When I'm satisfied with this binutils, I'll open the floodgates.
<ScottK> infinity: Alternately I just go "Oh, that package can't do autopkgtests" and move on to other things.
<infinity> ScottK: Yeah, or that.
<infinity> ScottK: Though, if this is a package with build-time tests disabled for the same reason, that's a bit of a fail on our part. :/
<ScottK> It's a DNS module, so it's kind of hard to test without having a network to do DNS'y things.
<infinity> (Unless literally off it its tests need interwebs, then maybe the tests need rewriting, or we indeed need a testbed with unfettered internet)
<infinity> s/off/all/
<infinity> ScottK: Well, depends on the DNSy things, I suppose.
<infinity> ScottK: But yeah, hard to know what you can and can't look up in a restricted network.
<ScottK> Since it's python-dns, it's whole job it to ask questions of the DNS and get answers.
<infinity> ScottK: FWIW, unlike our buildd network which can't even RESOLVE the outside world, I suspect the autopkgtest machines can resolve, just not connect.
<xnox> ScottK: you could try doing a quick sample and throw it to the archive and see if it sticks.
<infinity> ScottK: (But I dunno)
<ScottK> I'd have to override some pretty low lever pieced of the python networking stack to mock up the right responses.
<infinity> JABBERWOCKY: SEARCH_DIR("=/usr/x86_64-pep/lib"); SEARCH_DIR("=/usr/local/lib"); SEARCH_DIR("=/lib"); SEARCH_DIR("=/usr/lib");
<infinity> JABBERWOCKY2: SEARCH_DIR("=/usr/x86_64-pep/lib"); SEARCH_DIR("=/usr/local/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu"); SEARCH_DIR("=/usr/local/lib"); SEARCH_DIR("=/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu"); SEARCH_DIR("=/lib"); SEARCH_DIR("=/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu"); SEARCH_DIR("=/usr/lib");
<Unit193> (Copied over from -motu, because I noticed the package is in main) So I finally decided to look at the problem rather than hold on to the saucy package.  python-parsedatetime in trusty is a bit broken (gives traceback when you use gcalcli), and the way to fix it is either to update to a new version, or apply https://github.com/bear/parsedatetime/commit/51d47dd57a8ac78208aa69015d7e13bdf1bd3574 (and optionally: ...
<infinity> That looks like a correct mangling, right?
<Unit193> ... https://github.com/bear/parsedatetime/commit/692168f4bd336efc07e7575dcde7012eaa1e2075 There were a fair amount of other bug fixes, I believe, so not sure which route you'd prefer.  I'd prefer not to do the SRU paperwork myself, so I don't break something.)
<infinity> Unit193: Do you have a bug filed with the above info?  It'll probably get lost in IRC backscroll unless someone feels the urge to jump on it Right Now (which I don't).
<Unit193> infinity: I haven't, at least not yet, no.
<ScottK> zul: I fixed kazoo for you in trusty, but it needs a merge now.  Would you please take care of it.
<infinity> Alright, one last test build without debugging statements, and then I'll throw lintian's failure against it and upload if all good.
 * infinity crosses his fingers.
<infinity> doko: In case I have the wrong number and I'm SMSing into a void, I NMUd binutils to Debian for you, as well as the Ubuntu upload.  Enjoy.
#ubuntu-devel 2014-04-26
<infinity> pitti: And still more disappearing tests...
<infinity> pitti: apport (triggered by binutils) went from RUNNING to no longer on the list.
<infinity> pitti: And I see no evidence that it ever passed.
<Logan_> is it necessary to keep a delta if the only change is libpng12-dev to libpng-dev? it doesn't look like there will be a transition any time soon...
* infinity changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Trusty Final released! | Archive: Open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> trusty | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: xnox
<infinity> Logan_: The only provide of libpng-dev is libpng12-dev currently.
<Logan_> right
<infinity> s/provide/provider/
<infinity> Logan_: That didn't used to be true, hence some of the deltas.
<Logan_> ah, okay
<infinity> Logan_: So, yeah, if that's all the delta we have, go ahead and drop it.
<Logan_> sweet, will do
<infinity> First autosync in progress.  Should take about an hour to sync, and possibly a day or three for the buildds to forgive me.
<work_alkisg> ibus wasn't running by default up until 12.04, is there any reason why it's running now, even for locales that don't need it?
<work_alkisg> It's causing severe typing issues (e.g. https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42244) and it's eating up RAM without any benefit at all.
<ubottu> Freedesktop bug 42244 in Server/Input/Core "Multimedia keys become unresponsive in full-screen applications" [Normal,Reopened]
<alkisg> (it's not about multimedia keys, we can't even change the keyboard layout now)
<prepangolin> Hi guys
<prepangolin> How to compile compiz?
<dupingping_> hello developers.
<ScottK> stgraber: I'd like it so edubuntu-server-host used the native ipaddress module instead of ipaddr from python3-ipaddr.  I'm happy to do the changes if you'll be able to test them.  Do you have a requirement to backport prior to saucy?  I'm trying to delete the binary in Debian, so it'll go soon in uptopic.
<Unit193> pitti: src:systemd, "- debian/rules: Don't install init.d scripts, only the upstart jobs." you use the no-op '--upstart-only' switch for dh_installinit.  At least one less change needed.
<stgraber> ScottK: nope, we require a pretty recent LXC anyway, so we don't care about pre-saucy
<pitti> Unit193: oh, how is it a no-op?
<Unit193> Changelog of debhelper has '- dh_installinit: Add no-op --upstart-only option for compatibility.' and manpage has the same info.
<Unit193> "Deprecated option, ignored for compatibility."
<pitti> Unit193: ah, ok; thanks for pointing out!
<Unit193> pitti: Any time!
<pitti> Unit193: in fact, we'll get rid of a lot of our delta in the next merge
<pitti> http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-systemd/systemd.git;a=shortlog
<pitti> we've been busy today :)
<Unit193> That'll be nice.
<pitti> and I'll create am ubuntu branch on top of the debian git, so that we finally have an official Vcs
<pitti> we went through our delta today, and we pushed the useful bits to Debian, and can drop a lot of other bits
<ScottK> stgraber: Thanks.
<infinity> 164 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
<infinity> Looks like the autosync is working. :P
<pitti> hehe
<Logan_> infinity: lol, I have 260 to upgrade
<xnox> Unit193: "--upstart-only" still installs init.d script & the upstart job.
<infinity> Logan_: I did some last night too. ;)
<Logan_> ah :P
 * infinity starts slogging through the NEW queue.
<Unit193> xnox: Right.
<xnox> Unit193: that option has meant to not install init.d script symlink to an "upstart-job" executable, however that has been obsoleted.
<infinity> xnox: Yeah, he knows, he was pointing out to pitti that he could drop the option, since it was a no-op.
<Unit193> Yes, that's how I read it.
<xnox> infinity: ah, ok. correct.
<Mirv> I need to kill 100% CPU eating dnsmasq once after reboot now, hmm (on utopic)
<otto> I need help submitting mariadb-5.5 5.5.37 to trusty universe.
<otto> I've read the ubuntu wiki pages ForDebianDevelopers and found out about sponsorship requests and sync requests. I however didn't quite figure out what situation applies to me now.
<Unit193> otto: I'd think you're looking for a SRU, considering it fixes CVEs.
<otto> It is a security update, fixes http://www.ubuntu.com/usn/usn-2170-1/, should I ask security team to pull in mariadb-5.5 5.5.37 from Debian sid?
<xnox> otto: security sponsorship is slightly different, there is security documentation on the wiki as well.
<otto> yes, I've read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/ForDebianDevelopers too, but I still don't quite get what applies to me now
<xnox> otto: 5.5.37-1 is already in trusty (well in proposed (~= unstable), not release pocket (~= testing))
<otto> this seems to apply (from the wiki): "In stable releases of Ubuntu where the Ubuntu package has the same version as in Debian, the Ubuntu Security team will perform a sync from Debian (called a 'security fake sync'). These are typically performed weekly by a member of the Ubuntu Security for packages that are not officially supported. "
<xnox> otto: 5.5.36-1 is in trusty release in universe.
<otto> xnox: no, .37 is only proposed for utopic: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mariadb-5.5
<xnox> otto: i don't see mariadb in stable, thus you have no DSA issued right?
<otto> xnox: status overview https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=mariadb
<infinity>  mariadb-5.5 | 5.5.36-1 | trusty/universe          | source
<infinity>  mariadb-5.5 | 5.5.36-1 | utopic/universe          | source
<infinity>  mariadb-5.5 | 5.5.37-1 | utopic-proposed/universe | source
<infinity> So, yeah.  You can't get 5.5.37-1 into trusty, as we don't copy backwards.
<infinity> But you should get with the security team and see about pushing a 5.5.37-0ubuntu1 to trusty.
<xnox> otto: yeah, and there is no DSA to fakesync either. So just follow https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation open a bug report against maraiadb-5.5 package in ubuntu, nominate for trusty
<xnox> otto: and prepare a suitable diff & changelog entry + subscribe ubuntu-security, they should get back to you about it.
<xnox> otto: opening bug report which is "public security" with "ubuntu-security" is a first step to push this update to trusty.
<otto> xnox: does this look proper? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mariadb-5.5/+bug/1313187
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1313187 in mariadb-5.5 (Ubuntu) "USN-2170-1: MySQL vulnerabilities also applies to MariaDB" [Undecided,New]
<otto> should I file for a MRE at this point? where does it come in?
<xnox> otto: looks good.
<xnox> otto: MRE? no, that's unrelated.
<xnox> otto: i've made a comment on that bug report for the security team.
<infinity> Maria should probably enjoy the same MRE status that MySQL does, but that would also need a commitment from someomne to update and test it.
<xnox> In file included from /usr/include/ruby-2.1.0/ruby.h:33:0,
<xnox>                  from qmfengine.cpp:845:
<xnox> /usr/include/ruby-2.1.0/ruby/ruby.h:24:25: fatal error: ruby/config.h: No such file or directory
<xnox>  #include "ruby/config.h"
 * xnox ponders if our ruby is good or not.....
<infinity> xnox: Is that package passing an explicit -Iruby2.0 maybe?
<xnox> infinity: it does pass explicit -I and they are all 2.1 based.
<xnox> infinity: maybe not finding config.h, because multiarch.
<otto> infinity: I will anyway update the package for Debian, I could easily maintain it for Ubuntu too. I now already build and test all version on both Debian and Ubuntu
<infinity> (utopic-amd64)root@cthulhu:/usr/include# find . -name config.h
<infinity> ./x86_64-linux-gnu/ruby-2.1.0/ruby/config.h
<infinity> ./x86_64-linux-gnu/ruby-2.0.0/ruby/config.h
<infinity> xnox: So, this situation isn't new.  2.0 was set up the same way.
<psusi> infinity, hey there... I forwarded a query from someone last month about util-linux... I figured you were a little busy with finalizing trusty but now that it's out... how is that coming?
<otto> I am just a bit confused on what the proper process it to push new versions into Ubuntu stable releases
<xnox> infinity: quite. yeah. I'm porting qpid-cpp from ruby1.8-dev -> ruby-dev. Cause we somehow removed ruby1.8 without fixing all packages that like explicitely build-depend on ruby1.8-dev.
<xnox> infinity: i'm just gonna go la-la-la or possibly propose an SRU for qpid-cpp to be build against ruby2.0
<otto> The current wiki pages describe scenarios where somebody patches and existing package, but not really how a Debian release is supposed to be synced/backported into Ubuntu
<xnox> actually was qpid-cpp released or not...
<infinity> otto: It won't be synced.  And it usually shouldn't be the Debian release being backported either, as we don't want unrelated packaging changes.
<xnox> otto: we don't sync/backport into stable/released releases.
<infinity> otto: Your best bet is to poke mdeslaur and have him walk you through what the security team would like to see for things like this.
<otto> infinity: it's not feasible to cherry-pick security fixes, thus I was thinking if I should now draft a MRE request?
<psusi> otto, how is it not feasible to cherry-pick a security fix?
<otto> upstream releases on the 5.5 branch maintenance micro releases which contain security and other fixes. When I update the Debian package, e.g. 5.5.36 -> 5.5.37 I just import the whole upstream .37 release
<infinity> otto: Like I said, I suspect no one will disagree that maria should enjoy the same MRE status as MySQL does.
<psusi> should have no problem cherry picking the security fix, but yea, it does sound like a good candidate for MRE
<psusi> infinity, did you miss my question there? ;)
<otto> I was just wondering is this the right timing to send a MRE request to technical-board?
<infinity> otto: So, we'll probably want you to attend the meeting where it's discussed, or be prepared for a lively mailing list discussion, but please do.
<otto> ok
<infinity> otto: Like I said, I think that if someone (you?) is willing to commit to doing the updates and testing them, we'll all be happy to grant it based on the fact that MySQL already has an MRE, and the codebases are nearly identical.
<infinity> psusi: I might have.
<infinity> psusi: So, yeah, working on util-linux this coming week is bubbling up to "very important".  LaMont and I have had a few chats about it, and I'll let you know where things go.
<psusi> infinity, wondering how you're doing on util-linux... it has been a month now since I forwarded a query about it to you... some other debian devs were starting to say debian-qa maybe needs to step in to get it updated
<infinity> People sure are happy to talk about hijacking a package when it doesn't meet their version number fetish, yes.
<psusi> ok.. I'm thinking if you can't get to it in the coming week we really will need to fall back to my version
<infinity> It's being worked on.
<psusi> it's several years out of date and it's been "update in progress" for a few months now ;)
<infinity> Yeah, I know.
<infinity> It's just demoralising to have people jump down your throat with every NMU, as if it's a reflection on your worth as a human being. :P
<infinity> psusi: Anyhow, I want to get it into jessie in a sane state, and into utopic ASAP, so I'll get cracking this week and keep you posted on progress.
<psusi> ok, sounds good
<infinity> This NEW processing would go faster if I didn't feel the need to fix every FTBFS I notice along the way.
<infinity> pitti: Do you not need a transitional package for systemd-services?  Or are you doing a C/P/R forced removal trick and updating deps?
<pitti> infinity: the latter
<pitti> infinity: if nothing else, libpam-systemd's changed deps will force the transition already
<pitti> as it's not a top-level package
<pitti> infinity: I tested this a fair number of times and it worked well
<infinity> pitti: Oh, there's the C/P/R at the end of the changelog.  I didn't read far enough.
<infinity> pitti: I'm assuming you can get that into Debian too, since it's harmless cruft to carry there.
<pitti> infinity: yeah, will try tomorrow
<pitti> infinity: we just uploaded 204-9 to Debian which has a lot of our changes, and some others are obsolete
<pitti> infinity: I'm currently doing another merge (which should cut down our delta by 2/3 or more :) )
<infinity> pitti: \o/
<infinity> pitti: While you're in there, care to write cgroups support for FreeBSD and port systemd?  Thanks.
 * infinity isn't bitter, though.
<pitti> infinity: and what shall I do in the afternoon?
<infinity> pitti: The HURD port, of course.
<xnox> infinity: well, before util-linux is updated i should double check that d-i is compatible with it first.
<xnox> infinity: my fetish is however is more towards reviewing apw's initramfs tools merge ;-)
<xnox> pitti: what about pulling in 204 stable patch series? is that still planned to happen or should i start the repo to get those included?
<pitti> xnox: ah, we can do that
<pitti> it's also fairly easy now
<xnox> pitti: into debian&ubuntu or just ubuntu?
<pitti> xnox: please don't start on a branch right now; I'm in the middle of a rebase-of-doom against 204-9, this time with a proper public ubuntu branch in the debian git
<pitti> xnox: probably both (but tomorrow, getting late)
<xnox> pitti: cool! will wait after that.
<pitti> gbp-pq is awesome
<xnox> pitti: also "re: should the shim stay" -> i thought that stgraber was mentioning that cgmanager for 208 logind compat level is getthing there. Thus we'd want to keep shim for now, on linux.
<xnox> pitti: cjwatson has convinced me that "git-dpm" is far superior than gbp-pq.
<pitti> xnox: yes, I know -- I thought the plan was to teach shim about the systmed d-bus calls to create cgroups
<xnox> pitti: cool, i was seeing some agenda items for the debian-systemd sprint that looked a bit inconclusive.
 * xnox goes back to untagling transitions
<xnox> Laney: stole a trivial merge of muffin from you, to unblock cogl20 transition.
<pitti> xnox: yay :) http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=pkg-systemd/systemd.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/ubuntu
<pitti> (still WIP)
<xnox> pitti: =))))) keep going.
<xnox> pitti: maybe i should start trying out systemd ;-)
<psusi> what was the timeframe on the systemd transition again?  we going for it in unicorn?
<xnox> psusi: when it's ready.
<psusi> so trying for unicorn, but maybe not?
<xnox> psusi: it should be available for testing soon in unicorn. no estimates when it will be the default.
<psusi> is it going to be in the initramfs?
<pitti> I see no reason why it sohuld be
<pitti> it's making stuff unnecessarily slow and complicated
<psusi> hrm... maybe we can finally get around to fixing the issues with degraded or stacked mdadm/lvm/crypt
<psusi> oops, I misread that
<pitti> we still have the workaround for bug 1185394
<ubottu> bug 1185394 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd-udev fails when processing many logical volumes on boot" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1185394
<pitti> but I think I've seen some Debian bugs / LVM improvements which fixes that more properly than having to settle udev in initramfs with LVM
<xnox> psusi: stacked/degraded mdadm/lvm/crypt is not solved in systemd yet either on debian. work with debian folks to sort it out. that would be appreciated.
<psusi> well that's why I asked if it was planned to go in the initramfs or not
<psusi> if so, it should be possible to use it to sort those issues out that the current scripts have
<pitti> it would only make things worse
<psusi> say... how about plymouth?  is that going to fit into the systemd picture?
<pitti> because then you'd have to restart systemd as well, to use the one from the root fs after initramfs is finished
<pitti> yes, the integration needs to be re-done
<pitti> ATM, if you boot with systemd it doesn't use plymouth at all
<psusi> yea... we had planned on making upstart be able to do that for that reason.. I thoguht systemd was already capable of that?
<psusi> what is upstream systemd's solution to that problem?  do they just ignore the issue?
<pitti> re-exec itself with keeping state? maybe
<infinity> dracut supports initrd with and without systemd.  systemd devs recomment it's in your initrd, sane people recommend against, take your pick.
<psusi> that problem being multiplexing boot services interacting with the console
<infinity> I'd prefer not, personally, but making initramfs-tools support both modes so people don't make me switch to dracut might also be a decent plan.
<infinity> And, IIRC, systemd's "reexec" left something to be desired, I remember a longstanding bug about Fedora systems booted with systemd-in-initrd having open files from boot to shutdown and unclean umounts at shutdown every time.
<infinity> But maybe they finally fixed that.
 * pitti waves good night
<psusi> how do they deal with boot service console interaction?
<psusi> if they don't use plymouth?
<infinity> They use plymouth, AFAIK...
<psusi> ohh, cool
<psusi> figured they wouldn't be using something that came from ubuntu ;)
<infinity> It didn't come from Ubuntu.
<psusi> huh?  yea it did... Scott James Remnant wrote it?
<psusi> didn't he?
<infinity> Really not.
<infinity> Plymouth came from Fedora.
<infinity> They had it a year or two before us.
<psusi> I could have *sworn* SJR wrote it
<infinity> Perhaps you're thinking of usplash, written by mjg59 and others, and replaced by plymouth.
<xnox> infinity: can you hint boost-defaults and kdepim together?
<xnox> infinity: or am i missing something else for the two to migrate?
<infinity> xnox: Is the autohinter not doing that itself?
<xnox> infinity: nope.
 * infinity tries an easy hint, then.
<infinity> Odds are they're caught in another transition.
<xnox> infinity: last time Laney did "easy kdepim/4:4.11.2-0ubuntu2 boost-defaults/1.54.0.1ubuntu1" for me
<xnox> infinity: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-release/britney/hints-ubuntu/revision/472
<infinity> xnox: Yes, I know how to do it. :P
<infinity> xnox: (It's already committed)
<xnox> infinity: thanks. just a reference that for some reason autohinter doesn't find it.
<infinity> xnox: It could be because it's also caught up with openjpeg?
<xnox> infinity: and librtmp1 as well..... i'm sorting out rtmp1 at the moment. didn't look at openjpeg yet.
<infinity> And rtmpdump...
<xnox> infinity: should have migrated boost-defaults & kdepim pre-freeze.
<infinity> So, yeah.  You might be jumping the gun on thinking a hint is necessary. :P
<infinity> xnox: It'll shake out.  What's the rush?
<infinity> xnox: Did you not read my email about relaxing while the buildds catch up? :)
<xnox> infinity: people who use utopic, without proposed, will get boost1.54 - not 1.55 by default.
<infinity> xnox: So?
<xnox> infinity: i don't know how to relax after a dormant week? =)
<infinity> xnox: People who upload to utopic will build against 1.55
<infinity> xnox: People running utopic will get things as they transition, which is fine.
<xnox> infinity: success ;-) final: boost-defaults,kdepim
<mdeslaur> xnox: "* No change rebuild against $2."
<mdeslaur> xnox: that was cheap :)
<xnox> mdeslaur: darn.
<xnox> mdeslaur: which uploads?
<mdeslaur> gst-plugins-bad1.0 and a few others
<infinity> xnox: You don't read your .changes before you upload?
<infinity> Or, like, debdiff to make sure your automation isn't crack?
<mdeslaur> well, maybe just the gst-* two
<mdeslaur> xnox: I suggest bribing at least $5 next time :)
<xnox> mdeslaur: =))))
<xnox> mdeslaur: yeah just those two. i did fix up the rest.
<xnox> infinity: i do read them, but obviously over-skimmed.
<xnox> mdeslaur: oh, any opinion on fake-syncing mariadb .37 security release?
<xnox> mdeslaur: (similarish to mysql security update)
<infinity> Uhh, fakesyncing?  What?
<infinity> No.
<infinity> There's a proper way to do this, and that's not it.
<xnox> infinity: using the term from security-team docs -> called a 'security fake sync'
<infinity> xnox: That's not the right thing in this case.
<infinity> xnox: Because we don't want to keep pulling in Debian packaging changes through a 5 year LTS.
<infinity> xnox: The right way is the same way that MySQL is done, update the tarball and changelog, and not much else.
<mdeslaur> yes, what infinity said
<xnox> infinity: oh, right. i'm thinking one-time only, not long term. Once mariadb is actually part of stable release in debian, and after that only take if debian security does DSA.
<xnox> infinity: mdeslaur: or are you actually proposing to support universe mariadb for 5 years...
<infinity> xnox: otto wasn't looking for one-time only.
<infinity> xnox: If he wants it updated for today's CVEs, he wasn't the same for the next set. :P
<xnox> s/wasn't/wants/
<xnox> ack.
<infinity> xnox: So, no, *we* (Canonical, and their security team) won't be supporting maria, but if otto wants to, that's how.
<xnox> yeah, smells more like MRE indeed then.
<mdeslaur> xnox: it needs to get done just like everything else gets done...in this case, he needs to get a couple of updates sponsored by the security team, and then can apply for a MRE
<mdeslaur> so he needs to file a bug, propose some updated packages that only touch the tarball, etc.
<mdeslaur> if that goes well for a couple of releases, he can get an MRE and then do non-security updates too
<xnox> =( gccxml
#ubuntu-devel 2014-04-27
<ScottK> stgraber: ubuntu-server changes committed.  Please verify it still works an upload soonish as I plan to drop python3-ipaddr in a few weeks.
<stgraber> ScottK: ok. I'm pretty busy till Tuesday but I'll make sure to test it then, thanks
<Laney> xnox: are you trying to take care of every transition ever or something?
<infinity> xnox: You reintroduced the gccxml dep in boost-python.
<infinity> xnox: Plzfix, I don't want to fix it myself and have TIL on icky boost things. ;)
<ScottK> stgraber: That'll be plenty of time.
<teward|pc> does anyone know if the PPAs have builders enabled yet for utopic?
<infinity> teward|pc: Yes.
<teward|pc> infinity: awesome, thanks.
<ekarlso-> how can I record a stacktrace?
<Logan_> ekarlso-: that's more of a question for #ubuntu
<ekarlso-> What's the latest kernel for trusty ?
<ekarlso-> I'm getting a kernel panic on 3.13 with conntrack / ip_foward / bnx2
<maxb> Ubuntu never changes the kernel release branch within a released series, so of course it is still 3.13
<shadeslayer> pitti: abr 27 20:44:45 solembum dbus-daemon[686]: dbus[686]: [system] Activation via systemd failed for unit 'dbus-org.freedesktop.ModemManager1.service': Unit dbus-org.freedesktop.ModemMan
<xnox> infinity: yeah, sorry. let me fix that in debian as well.
<xnox> Laney: just those that get inter-tangled with boost... which is a few.
<xnox> Laney: i'm hoping to finish boost transition before anyone decides to do libav one.
<Logan_> cjwatson: do you think that arm64 delta is still required for r-base 3.1.0?
<cjwatson> I don't know, haven't had a chance to verify
<cjwatson> Depends how they integrated the patch upstream
<Logan_> gotcha
<rhl> Hi, I am a fedora packager. I have some software I am writing and submitting to the fedora repo's very soon, I'm looking to also get the package into ubuntu
<rhl> I have a friend willing to do the packaging, but he is not an official ubuntu packager
<rhl> I was hoping for some advice on getting the package into the main repo's
<rhl> my friend doesn't want to become an official packager
 * mdeslaur gratuitously hugs Trevinho for mastering the compiz code base
#ubuntu-devel 2015-04-20
<mwhudson> is there a x86_64-apple-darwin binutils hiding in the archive somewhere?
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> rbasak: what's the status of juju 1.23 for vivid? ISTR that last week you were about two packaging bugs away from it, right?
<pitti> rbasak: it's universe and not on any images, so we could potentially land it on Wed even, or SRU it too without much damange either
<rbasak> pitti: there have been some regressions found in the current 1.23 beta, so upstream are holding the release right now and we don't want to upload it.
<pitti> rbasak: ack, thanks; so I'll move the milestone of bug 1409639
<ubottu> bug 1409639 in juju-core (Ubuntu Vivid) "juju needs to support systemd for >= vivid" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1409639
<rbasak> pitti: upstream are pulling some new 1.23 features into a feature flag which should eliminate the regressions. But that means that 1.23 may need to land in an SRU.
<pitti> it's got a MRE, so shouldn't pose any problem
<rbasak> pitti: we're waiting on upstream who are working on resolving this at the moment.
<rbasak> Ack.
<pitti> rbasak: right; there's little pressure here, I just want to sanitize the 15.04 milestone so that we have something sensible to work against
<pitti> rbasak: thanks for confirming!
<pitti> Riddell: hey Jonathan, how are you?
<pitti> Riddell: do you still want to land bug 1372920 for vivid? if so, now is the time :)
<ubottu> bug 1372920 in kipi-plugins (Ubuntu Vivid) "kipi-plugins should depend on libkqoauth" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1372920
<pitti> apw: I suppose there won't be another kernel upload for vivid final, so should bug 1439706 be moved to vivid-updates, or to w-series?
<ubottu> bug 1439706 in linux (Ubuntu) "FFE: Ubuntu FAN networking support (for linux, iproute2 and ubuntu-fan)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1439706
<pitti> jdstrand: do you still want to remove the aa-easyprof workaroud for vivid final in bug 1378823 ?
<ubottu> bug 1378823 in apparmor-easyprof-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "apparmor denial for bind on name="org.freedesktop.Application"" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1378823
<pitti> jdstrand: if so, please upload it today
<rbasak> Can seeds do alternatives?
<ogra_> alternatives are a postinst thing ...
<rbasak> "ubuntu-minimal lists ntpdate as a dependency, such that ubuntu-minimal is uninstalled if you try to replace ntpdate with ntpd."
<rbasak> ogra_: I mean Depends: a | b
<infinity> rbasak: ntpdate and ntp don't conflict...
<rbasak> As in "sbuild --resolve-alternatives"
<rbasak> infinity: I hadn't noted that. Thanks.
<infinity> rbasak: It's perfectly reaonable (and, IMO, correct) to have both installed.
<rbasak> I've just seen https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ntp/+bug/583994 and am thinking about how that might influence my plans to make ntpd default on (at least) server.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 583994 in ubuntu-meta (Ubuntu) "Consider replacing ntpdate calls by 'ntpd -g'" [Medium,Triaged]
<infinity> rbasak: ntpdate on boot for a (potentially large) jump to mostly correct, and ntpd to fix jitter.
<rbasak> With ntpdate deprecated, we should be calling ntpd only in either "keep running" or "fix once and stop" mode, with an optional "big jumps are OK" flag.
<ogra_> i thought we'd switch to systemds timesyncd anyway
<infinity> ogra_: Ick.
<infinity> rbasak: So, yeah, if ntpdate is going away, I'd argue that it should just depend on ntp and still have init scripts that invoke the ntpd one-shot behaviour.
<ogra_> infinity, well, i think it is default in snappy already ...
<rbasak> When I last looked, I saw no justification for timesyncd existing at all. The only documentation was the check in.
<infinity> ogra_: That's nice.
<ogra_> and i doubt we want to maintainh both long term
<infinity> ogra_: "It's the default in snappy" doesn't inform my server decisions much. :P
<infinity> ogra_: We're never getting rid of ntpd, because people actually need ntp servers.
<ogra_> oh, sure, but we'll likely get rid of ntpdate in if-up.d
<infinity> ogra_: *shrug*
<rbasak> If we want to move away from ntpd by default, I'd really like to see an actual justification of why the alternative is better. "systemd does it" is not enough for me.
<ogra_> i'm only talking abouot the client side here
<infinity> ogra_: The "maintaining both" argument should treat tinesyncd as the "extra" copy here, not ntpd.
<rbasak> I also don't want to delay ntp by default on server because some people want timesyncd with no real technical justification.
<infinity> rbasak: timesyncd is arguably a slightly better (as in faster) one-shot client, but we need ntpd regardless, so meh.
<rbasak> Oh - it's one-shot only?
<infinity> Oh, it might also do ongoing client fun, not sure.
<infinity> But it's not ntpd, as in it can't act as a stratum server.
<ogra_> rbasak, being the default of our now chosen init system isnt enough technical justification ... or "we get it for free anyway" isnt either ?
<infinity> So, ntpd won't die.
<infinity> ogra_: No, neither of those is a valid argument.
<infinity> ogra_: It also needs to not be crap.
<rbasak> ogra_: AIUI, the whole decision in Debian that made systemd the default deliberately did not pull the world of systemd in with it.
<infinity> ogra_: We're not using networkd either.
<rbasak> ogra_: it was an "init system only" discussion.
<infinity> ogra_: Just because it's in the systemd source tree doesn't mean we should use it.
<rbasak> ogra_: so in my mind if we're going to pull other components in, they need an independent justification.
<ogra_> rbasak, oh, indeed it didnt pull the world with it ... but it will be a lot harder to stay diverged and do our own thing
<infinity> We're not "diverged".
<infinity> ntpd is not going away.  Period.
<ogra_> i'm still talking about ntpdate :)
<infinity> So, it's a question between maintaining two things, or maintaining just one and turning off timesyncd.
<infinity> ogra_: ntpdate == ntpd, going forward.
<infinity> Which is what the bug is about.
<infinity> rbasak: Though, to be fair, a 5-year old bug claiming ntpdate is going away upstream is a bit hard to believe when it's still not happened...
<pitti> rbasak, ogra_: FTR, timesyncd was requested by snappy, to have a small and unintrusive ntp thingy
<rbasak> infinity: well, the new functionality exists already. So if we're going to overhaul things, we should probably use it.
<pitti> but it will not start if ntpd (or friends) are installed
<rbasak> infinity: for ntpd by default on server, do I want ntpdate + ntpd, or just ntpd?
<rbasak> I presume just ntpd?
<rbasak> Maybe start with the -g option to allow large time steps.
<infinity> rbasak: Well, you need a clean migration path anyway.
<infinity> rbasak: So, empty out ntpdate, make it depend on ntp, and make the ifup/etc hooks call it in one-shot-and-large-skew mode.
<infinity> rbasak: That seems sensible to me, ish.
<rbasak> infinity: right
<infinity> rbasak: Ideally, with coordination with the Debian ntp maintainer(s), so we don't end up with a messy delta of doom.
<rbasak> Yep
<rbasak> I'm not sure if I can call one-shot-and-large-skew mode if ntpd (daemon) is already running.
<rbasak> Maybe I can kick it though. The hooks could be clever about which to do.
<infinity> rbasak: ntp has a few more deps, but nothing that looks crazy for places where you wanted ntpdate installed anyway.
<pitti> infinity, rbasak: so FTR, I wouldn't mind if we dropped ntpdate from the seeds entirely, at least not for desktop
<rbasak> pitti: what, in favour of timesyncd?
<pitti> rbasak: WFM
<pitti> that one is just fine for snappy and desktop
<rbasak> I wonder what server users would want.
<infinity> rbasak: The current hook already stops ntp, runs ntpdate, and starts ntp.  Not sure if that's actually correct, though.
<pitti> servers might want some more elaborate one like ntpd, of course
<infinity> rbasak: Since ntpd in non-skew mode will just exit hard, it's fair to assume that if it's running, the time is correct.
<rbasak> If they're serving time, sure.
<pitti> and that's fine, timesyncd will not run then
<rbasak> If they're just consuming time, do server users want to use ntpd or timesyncd?
<infinity> rbasak: Depends on how well timesyncd deals with jitter, or if it's coarse-grained, like ntpdate.
<infinity> rbasak: Server users want precise time (especially NFS users), so whatever will give them that is "good enough".
<pitti> infinity: timesyncd adapts the update cycles according to the current drift
<pitti> infinity: i. e. it starts with waking up often (every 30s) and then depending on how good/bad your clock is it exponentially reduces the wakeups
<pitti> and it listens to net device up events, so if it never ran it does ntp on up'ing an interface, similar to ifup.d/ntpdate
<rbasak> That's useful, thanks.
<rbasak> Especially as I can't find this stuff documented anywhere/
<didrocks> mvo: hey! We have a small question from the desktop sprint: let's imagine we want to install ubuntu-core with snappy on a laptop for testing purpose (or on an usb drive), is there any doc for this?
<ogra_> iirc there were discussions on the snappy-devel ML
<ogra_> (about that topic)
<seb128> ogra_, didrocks, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/snappy-devel/2015-March/000375.html ?
<ogra_> yeah
<ogra_> (there was also another one "running snappy on bare metal" or so)
<didrocks> thanks!
<ogra_> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/snappy-devel/2015-March/000378.html is the key though
<seb128> didrocks, http://www.ubuntu.com/things says
<seb128> wget http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-core/releases/alpha-3/ubuntu-core-WEBDM-alpha-03_armhf-bbb.img.xz
<seb128> unxz -c ubuntu-core-WEBDM-alpha-03_armhf-bbb.img.xz | dd of=/dev/sdX bs=32M
<seb128> sync
<ogra_> probably not with the armhf beaglebone image though :)
<rbasak> diwic: seb128 suggests that I mention bug 1445358? Sounds like it should be release critical to me.
<ubottu> bug 1445358 in pulseaudio (Ubuntu) "Pulseaudio fails to run when system's language is in certain non-English locales" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1445358
<diwic> rbasak, ok, looking
<rbasak> Thanks.
<rbasak> Looks like a fairly trivial and not-too-impactful fix if it's valid.
<diwic> rbasak, it's valid. Question is if I should try to upload something, or wait for an SRU
<Anupkumar> hi, I am working on a bug related to udisks, can anyone tell me is it a right place to ask questions related to bugs on udisks here?
<shadeslayer> slangasek: ping
<shadeslayer> slangasek: Could you help me with the skype package? I'm trying to recompile it, but it doesn't seem to want to spit out skype-bin
<rbasak> diwic: I think there's still time to upload a fix. Check in #ubuntu-release though.
<diwic> yup. Already there
<rbasak> Oh yes, sorry. Just got back to my screen and I looked at the highlighted channels first.
<shadeslayer> slangasek: nvm
<Ionic> I'm setting "{debupstream}-0~{revno}" as the debian version... should that be automatically expanded?
<Ionic> if yes, it doesn't do that for vivid, leading to build failures
<Ionic> (older versions are working fine)
<Ionic> or maybe that was very old news
<Ionic> yeah I guess... nevermind, sorry
<Ionic> 2012
<Ionic> likely some layer 8 error back then
 * infinity glares at rbasak for moving files and making him hand-compare the diffs.
<rbasak> Sorry
<rbasak> I moved it because it needed renaming anyway to work with dh_install
<rbasak> Without having to use dh-exec
<infinity> rbasak: Yeah, I understand the rationale, just sucks to review.  I'll quit whining. :P
<rbasak> Oh, OK :)
<infinity> patchutils needs a utility to check if -file1/+file2 are identical.
<rbasak> git's rename detection is very good
<rbasak> Then the diff output shows the changes across the rename, which is nice.
<infinity> rbasak: Hah.  And they're not the same.
<rbasak> +  * d/additions/source_mysql-5.6.py: attach new configuration files and
<infinity> Ahh, and the changelog notes that.
<rbasak> +  * directories.
<infinity> Right.
<rbasak> Apart from extra *. Whoops.
<rbasak> I noted that we get an apport hook error if for example /etc/mysql/mysql.conf.d/ is deleted. But I think that's OK for now at least, since that error will appear in the apport report and the triager will know something's up.
<rbasak> It certainly makes things no worse from previous, since users could still delete all of /etc/mysql.
<rbasak> This kind of thing seems to be more common than I might've expected.
<infinity> rbasak: Yeah, checking for existence of the bits before attempting to list-and-attach would be nice.
<rbasak> One day I'll overhaul the whole thing.
<infinity> rbasak: Especially for optional things, which .d dirs are.
<rbasak> For now I just wanted to get something, which is infinitely better than nothing.
<infinity> rbasak: But yeah, it was equally broken before, so this isn't a regression, per se.
<pitti> wgrant: bug 1436937
<ubottu> bug 1436937 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Vivid) "Temporary OEM user not removed after end user setup" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1436937
<wgrant> jibel: https://launchpad.net/~wgrant/+archive/ubuntu/experimental/+build/7343935
<jibel> wgrant, verification passed :)
<wgrant> hallyn_: What's the status of the subuid patches for shadow? The above bug is in fact dodgy error handling in our version of them, so I'm wondering if there's somewhere I should be submitting the fix.
<stgraber> wgrant: it's a bit of a mess IIRC. Eric wrote the patches for us, we were the first to carry them as distro patches, then they got included upstream (https://github.com/shadow-maint/shadow), we did a few more fixes on our side which Debian picked up later and may have now gotten upstream.
<wgrant> stgraber: Ah, indeed, broken upstream as well AFAICS. Will try to reproduce on that and submit upstream.
<hallyn_> what's broken upsream?
<hallyn_> stgraber: all fixes should be upstream.
<stgraber> hallyn_: bug 1436937
<ubottu> bug 1436937 in shadow (Ubuntu Vivid) "Temporary OEM user not removed after end user setup" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1436937
<stgraber> hallyn_: did upstream also switch to 65536 uid and gid by default for non-system users? I believe that change was a bit controversial when I made it and I got push back from Debian about taking that. Haven't checked the state of things in Debian + upstream recently though.
<hallyn_> stgraber: i don't see tha tin git log, it's probably still ubuntu delta, might stay that way.  THough if you send a github pull request we can discuss again
<doko> xnox, still planning to update boost when opening the w-series?
<dobey> doko: hi. when do you expect w archive to be opened?
<ogra_> what ? it isnt open yet ?!?
<ogra_> :P
<dobey> heh
<dobey> of course, then we'll have to wait for CI to get stuff set up for w
<doko> dobey, I doubt it will be open for everybody before the weekend
<dobey> doko: ok. hopefully CI can get all their bits updated to allow landing in it on Monday too.
<ogra_> dobey, what do you want to land ?
<ogra_> so urgently ...
<dobey> ogra_: all the many things that people on my team have been working on, that aren't critical bug fixes :)
<arges> hallyn_: updated bug 1444057, if you are happy let me know and I can upload into W next week and sru into V
<ubottu> bug 1444057 in qemu (Ubuntu) "gdb remote target of a guest VM fails to continue" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1444057
<arges> (or whatever is easiest)
<hallyn_> arges: i'm happy, and frankly i'm happy to have you upload it now
<hallyn_> stgraber: ^ qemu in vivid currently can't be used with gdb to trace the guest;  building with --debug fixes it;  i think it's worth a last-minute upload to fix that.  What do you think?
<stgraber> hallyn_: upload it to the queue. It can then be pulled in if we rebuild the server image before release (as it's seeded in there)
<stgraber> hallyn_: that's assuming you've confirmed --debug doesn't cause significant performance regressions or other change in behavior
<arges> stgraber: i've only tested boot times
<arges> stgraber: any particular benchmarking you'd like to see?
<stgraber> arges: I expect the server folks can take your qemu for a spin on some crazy openstack scaling run to make sure this isn't slowing things down
<arges> stgraber: i'll build it in a PPA then
<arges> and ask for testing
<stgraber> ok, cool.
<stgraber> I have no idea what --debug may do for qemu but that sounds like the kind of option where a performance regression test would be worth it :)
<arges> stgraber: disable-strip just does 'strip_opt=no'; enable-debug adds that plus 'debug_tcg=yes,debug=yes' i'll also look through the code to see what changes specifically and put that that info into the bug
<hallyn_> i would've assumed boot times would've shown perf regressions
<arges> hallyn_: one last note. building qemu with --enable-debug disables adding -O2 to CFLAGS. I'm guessing that might be reason enough to not build with enable-debug...
<arges> so that might be a 'wont fix' and just document it
<hallyn_> dunno, if it doesn't actually affect perf...
<hallyn_> but ok, let's leave it for w i guess
#ubuntu-devel 2015-04-21
<Mirv> could a core-dev ack the following packaging changes (the debian/ parts, others are just FYI)? https://ci-train.ubuntu.com/job/ubuntu-landing-004-1-build/129/artifact/ubuntu-ui-toolkit_packaging_changes.diff
<Mirv> removing of python2 support from tests (and dependencies), plus switching to QT_SELECT=qt5 and therefore removing cruft from the dependencies
<Mirv> oh, as a remark, it's not going at this moment to vivid archives, but targets w. but we treat the current overlay PPA as archive.
<RAOF> Mirv: Looks sensible.
<Mirv> thanks!
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> Good morning
<infinity> jamespage: Should nova-serialproxy be explicitly seeded, or dropped to universe?
<didrocks> mvo: hey, stupid snappy question for you. So, if you have apps A depending on framework B, how can app A knows the path from the libs (or helpers) included in framework B?
<pitti> didrocks: you don't really
<davmor2> seb128: so we still have the issue in vivid where you put something into the waste bin and then right click the icon in the launcher and empty the waste bin that is randomly opens a nautilus window
<seb128> davmor2, correct
<didrocks> pitti: I guess we have misconceptions about frameworks, we read about the fact that it shouldn't contain libs
<pitti> didrocks: right now frameworks can export binaries, but not libs
<didrocks> so
<didrocks> if I have a mir framework
<pitti> didrocks: it should contain libs, but not export them
<didrocks> how to run apps?
<davmor2> seb128: fair enough :)
<pitti> didrocks: (and yes, I think that's wrong, but that's how it is right now)
<didrocks> pitti: I guess all this was discussed in a desktop context, right?
<pitti> didrocks: bundle everything
<didrocks> so every apps contains Mir libs?
<mvo> didrocks: you need to hardcode that right now, I think we will include a better mechanism for this but we are not there yet, sorry
<pitti> yes, duplication is the future!
<didrocks> mvo: seems like we have some requirements on the very short term to have a snappy desktop
<didrocks> mvo: so, we are experimenting (and will have a list of requirements from you)
<didrocks> mvo: is it better to send a long email with all our questions on the ML?
<mvo> didrocks: eh, we release in 2 days, there is nothing new coming
<didrocks> mvo: well, I guess this is for the incoming cycle :p
<mvo> didrocks: i.e. if you need anything new it won't be based on 15.04, maybe 15.04.1 or something
<didrocks> I hope at least
<mvo> didrocks: aha, ok
<mvo> didrocks: thats different :)
<mvo> didrocks: I was shocked for a minute
<mvo> didrocks: either way is fine, irc or mail
<didrocks> mvo: no heart attack (yet)
<didrocks> we will be able to panic tomorrow :p
<didrocks> mvo: shouldn't we have a quick hangout (robert ancell, I and you) to unfog the first questions?
<didrocks> not sure how much you thought about snappy in a dekstop context
<didrocks> (we are sprinting this week)
<didrocks> I guess we can draft an email, better for async thinking
<mvo> didrocks: maybe send mail and then hangout? this way I get some to think about the questions and more people can jump in if needed?
<didrocks> mvo: sounds good, robert and I will draft our thoughts
<mvo> ta
<addiks> hi, i am getting a segfault when running test for unity which prevents me from building unity packages. This happenes on the version i get from "apt-get source unity", and also the one from "bzr branch lp:unity". I am currently running a bisection, but i dont know if the information from that are usable because i neither have very much experience with bazaar nor with bisecting. I have a backtrace from GDB, it just does not make much se
<addiks> nse to me. What should i do next?
<infinity> jamespage: Also, please subscribe the server team to dns-root-data bugs, per bug #1426460
<ubottu> bug 1426460 in dns-root-data (Ubuntu) "[MIR] dns-root-data" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1426460
<jamespage> infinity, looking now
<infinity> jamespage: To the bug sub, or the nova-thingee seed? :)
<jamespage> both
<infinity> jamespage: (But thanks in advance for both)
<jamespage> bug sub done
<jamespage> infinity, as nova-serialproxy is completely untested by my team, I'd prefer we demoted to universe for this cycle please
<infinity> jamespage: Fair enough.
<infinity> jamespage: Sounds kinda awesome, though, would be nice to test and support it in the future.
<infinity> jamespage: Hint, hint. :)
<jamespage> infinity, I agree
<jamespage> on the list for +1
<infinity> jamespage: Also, a bug sub on ndg-httpsclient (a new dep of python-urllib3, which is already the server team's) would be swell.
<jamespage> infinity, ok - doing so now
<infinity> jamespage: \o/
<jamespage> infinity, done
<tkamppeter> mterry, hi
<rbasak> How should we package an upstream that requires -march=core2?
<rbasak> They're using sse3.5-specific intrinsics.
<strikov> rbasak: i found this for example: http://packages.ubuntu.com/trusty/radiance-sse3
<strikov> rbasak: the difference is that it's something like a plugin
<larsu> tyhicks:  hey! we're working on that gsettings confinemnet dameon. Where do we get the list of keys an app is allowed
<larsu>                to access?
<shadeslayer> cjwatson: what was the link where I could view cdimage logs?
<shadeslayer> it was somewhere on this team https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/
<cjwatson> No it wasn't :-)
<cjwatson> shadeslayer: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/
<shadeslayer> hm ok, I recall there being a launchpad page with the logs too
<shadeslayer> cjwatson: on that note, is there a archive of ubuntu touch images somewhere
<cjwatson> shadeslayer: Live filesystem build logs are stored on Launchpad, but right now it's easiest to find them from the above link.
<shadeslayer> ok
<cjwatson> shadeslayer: If an image isn't on cdimage.u.c or releases.u.c or old-releases.u.c any more, then in general it's gone.
<shadeslayer> cjwatson: aw drat
<shadeslayer> Riddell: ^^
<mterry> tkamppeter, hello!  I left IRC on all night, wasn't around
<hallyn_> infinity: so we ran into a little bug in vivid in that ulimit for root on vivid says it can hav 64k files, but libc's __FD_SETSIZE is 1024
<hallyn_> so when lxd opens an fd > 1024 and then tries to select on it, it gets a crash and 'buffer overflow' msg from FD_SET
<hallyn_> ok to push a glibc which bumps __FD_SETSIZE?
<hallyn_> doko_: ^
<hallyn_> (sorry, biab)
<rbasak> hallyn_: this reminds me of https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-September/031446.html
<rbasak> I get the impression it's non-trivial to change that.
<doko_> hallyn_, that would be better an infinity question
<rbasak> hallyn_: the kernel defines __FD_SETSIZE so I don't think you can change it easily.
 * rbasak wonders how the default nofile got bumped.
<rbasak> systemd switch perhaps?
<infinity> hallyn_: No.
<hallyn_> infinity: ok, that's quite a problem.  any daemon that takes a lot of connections is gonna end up crashing
<hallyn_> rbasak: heh, yup, looks like kees was on the ball there
<rbasak> hallyn_: I wonder if we have an indavertent issue here though. From my brief look systemd is just passing on the kernel default. Is there something upstart was doing before to set the fd limit to 1024?
<infinity> hallyn_: That statement is provably false.  Perhaps you're after epoll?
<rbasak> In which case, should we be doing the same, if we haven't rebuilt all packages against the new fortification stuff?
<hallyn_> infinity: what statement is provably false?
<infinity> hallyn_: The daemons crashing.  Oh, unless you mean ulimit has changed, and is now a lie...
<hallyn_> infinity: rharper is running large parallel tess against lxd, which golang (threaded) so all the threads share fdtable;  so they pretty quickly get past 1024 fds.
<hallyn_> every crash i've seen was it opening a unix fd, trying to FD_SET it to select, and hitting the check in libc
<rbasak> hallyn_: the right thing to do is to not use select in that case I think.
<hallyn_> "in that case"
<hallyn_> ^ that basically means, never use select
<rbasak> If you want >1024 fds.
<hallyn_> no, i don't
<hallyn_> i'm liblxc, i just want to open a unix fd and select on it
<infinity> hallyn_: Hrm, ulimit -n is indeed different on vivid than on trusty.  That's irksome.
<hallyn_> rbasak: and i only have a single fd i care about.  it happens to be > 1024.
<rbasak> infinity: yeah, just verified that it's gone from 1024 to 65536 between Uoptic and Vivid.
<rharper> I'm running on vivid
<rbasak> infinity: looks like /etc/systemd/system.conf can configure the default, and that systemd uses the kernel default by default.
<hallyn_> now i agree part of the problem is golang's use of threads :)
<rbasak> infinity: so is this an inadvertent change that we need to fix?
<hallyn_> bc if we drop the ulimit then we'll just get a different failure
<rharper> hallyn_: that's a feature not a bug =)
<rbasak> hallyn_: if you're selecting on just one fd, then surely you only need an fd_set size of 1?
<infinity> rbasak: pitti and I are talking about it here.
<hallyn_> rharper: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-September/031446.html says no :)
<rbasak> Oh, no that's stupid.
<rbasak> If the fd could be greater than 1024, then you can't use select.
<rharper> hallyn_: eww
<rbasak> Use poll instead maybe?
<hallyn_> rbasak: every library in the archive would need to not use select
<hallyn_> ever
<rbasak> hallyn_: correct. Which is why the file descriptor limit is (was) set to 1024 by default.
<infinity> rbasak: epoll, even.
<rbasak> select is fundamentally flawed for large number of file descriptors.
<rbasak> A bit field passed through a system call is not going to scale.
<hallyn_> rbasak: but so https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2010-September/031446.html doesn't tell me what bad things happen when we bump FD_SETSIZE in glibc
<rharper> hallyn_: does that mean that on trusty we should be "ok" due to the upper limit ?  it still seems strange; does go limit the number of threads it can create by FD limits ?
<hallyn_> and fwiw rharper and i are runnign with that now
<infinity> hallyn_: So, yeah.  There are two bugs here.  (A) the ulimit defaulting to over 1024 is obviously wrong.  But (B) if that's not working for your use case, this is 2015, epoll isn't exactly new and shiny.
<hallyn_> rharper: good q.  maybe
<hallyn_> that would be almost smart
<rharper> well, I don't think they should, a single thread could do lots of work on many FDs
<hallyn_> infinity: that liblxc code has been around since bfeore 2008 :)
<hallyn_> rharper: yeah, but i guess a "couldn't open fd' error would be better than "BUFFER OVERFLOW OMG"
<infinity> hallyn_: epoll has been around since Linux 2.5.44 and glibc 2.3.2, I suspect it's older. :P
<rbasak> infinity: for simple programs I have just used poll. Is that wrong? Is poll deprecated somehow? If I'm testing just a handful of fds, why should I use epoll instead?
<hallyn_> infinity: good point, and liblxc does use epoll
<hallyn_> but noone has ever declared select deprecated
<hallyn_> and more to th epoint, i'm pretty sure if we change all seleects in liblxc, we'll run into other libraries doing the same thing
<rharper> dont we really want eventfd though ?
<hallyn_> well, that's more detailed than we need to be right now,
<rharper> in any case, the discussion of what else to use is secondary to the bugs if there is agreement that going back to 1024 won't "fix" liblxc/lxd
<hallyn_> the q is, do we fix glibc or do we change al lsoftware saying it is too old otherwise
<rharper> yeah
<infinity> rbasak: epoll is significantly fancier, but it all depends on the level of fancy you need.
<rharper> hallyn_: the thing I still don't understand is if we "fix" glibc , does that fix lxd/liblxc ?
<hallyn_> we use epoll for use with signalfd etc irc
<rbasak> infinity: minimal fancy. So I think select is fine if you know an fd won't be greater than FD_SETSIZE, and poll otherwise.
<hallyn_> rharper: you were doing the testing :)
<rharper> I can re-run it on trusty
<rharper> where the limit is still at 1024
<hallyn_> rbasak: that sounds like nonsense though
<hallyn_> rbasak: you cannot know a priori what the fd will be, so you'd have to check and have both codepaths anyway
<hallyn_> so just use epoll
<rbasak> hallyn_: for a library, yes.
<hallyn_> so it comes down to - do we have to switch over the whole archive
<hallyn_> yes
<infinity> hallyn_: We're not "fixing" glibc, that's not happening.  But the default ulimit is clearly wrong.
<cjwatson> We obviously don't have to switch the whole archive; lots of programs reliably never get anywhere near fd 1024.
<hallyn_> libraries
<cjwatson> Libraries that couldn't guarantee not to hit 1024 were likely always buggy.
<hallyn_> infinity: is there something that will break with the glibc change?
 * rbasak wonders how select(2) is implemented inside glibc.
<rbasak> I see select(2) calls in strace output. So does FD_SETSIZE need to be tuned inside the kernel as well for this to work?
<hallyn_> cjwatson: you may feel that was always the case, but the manpage doesn 'tmention that, and to me it feels like glibc breaking the contract.
<rbasak> Or does the kernel just understand a larger nfds?
<hallyn_> rbasak: it's not select, it's FD_SET
<hallyn_> (FD_ENT)
<hallyn_> ok, well i'll personally hold this against libc and pretend someone cares :)  but i guess i'll update lxc to not use select in any library part
<rbasak> hallyn_: glibc's contract is defined by FD_SETSIZE though. Not a broken contract, just a hole where open(2) returns an fd greater than FD_SETSIZE so prevents you from using select(2) with it.
<cjwatson> hallyn_: Changing FD_SETSIZE would be a pretty disastrous ABI change.  Lots of programs declare fd_sets (there's no allocator function) and pass them to select.
<hallyn_> rbasak: FD_SETSIZE is internal to libc
<cjwatson> No it's not.  It's exposed by the size of struct fd_set.
<hallyn_> oh, i guess so
<rbasak> Perhaps userspace should deprecate select, even if the kernel doesn't. Then non-deprecated stacks can have LimitNOFILE set higher or to unlimited.
<rbasak> Otherwise we're forever stuck leaving it for users who want >1024 fds to guess and tune, which sucks.
<hallyn_> seems clear to me that it should
<cjwatson> And the man page does have a bit in NOTES about fd_sets being fixed size.
<cjwatson> Though the difficulty of raising it is left to the reader to infer ...
<hallyn_> and it also doesn't make clear that the limit is actually pretty low by default
<hallyn_> that note doesn't seem to raise the appropriate level of alarm
<hallyn_> but maybe that's just me
<hallyn_> anyway i guess i've got some lxc patches to write
<hallyn_> and some glibc effigees to burn
<cjwatson> I think it depends what you're doing.  I've never run into this in libpipeline, for instance, which uses select.
<cjwatson> Although I should likely update that to use poll.
 * rharper hands hallyn_ a torch
<cjwatson> I'd totally regard it as my bug if one of my users ran into it there though :-)
<rbasak> What if we made glibc abort() if select() is called with SELECT_IS_BANNED is defined in the environment.
<flexiondotorg> dholbach, Do you have a sec? I'd like to file a sync request for mate-tweak from Debian unstable. If fixes and bug and add translations. The package has not previously been synced from Debian so that changelog and history are different from the Ubuntu package.
<hallyn_> most liblxc users wouldn't run into it either.  It's just golang which fires off a slew of threads using the lxc api all sharing hte same fdtable
<flexiondotorg> dholbach, Is there anything "special" I need to do?
<rbasak> Then anything that ups the file descriptor limit could also set that environment variable and bump it safely.
<hallyn_> i suppose that could give a clearer error msg (than having to look at objdmp output for libc), but otherwise it doesn't seem any better
<dholbach> flexiondotorg, no, I'm afraid I don't have time - sorry
<dholbach> can you maybe subscribe the release team?=
<cjwatson> I'm sure there are easier ways to improve select's error message ...
<dholbach> or ping somebody on the release team?
<flexiondotorg> dholbach, OK. Thanks.
<dholbach> thanks flexiondotorg!
<hallyn_> cjwatson: hah, yes, and maybe i'll send a patch for that after i "fix" lxc (i can put tha tin quotes too :)
<hallyn_> all right, thanks all.  at least know where stand.
<smoser> is there a tool to rename network devices ?
<smoser> i'm aware of how to configure udev to do it for me
<smoser> but if i want to manually do it
<smoser> ie: net-rename eth1 eth2
<cyphermox> smoser: possibly ip link set dev $oldname name $newname
<cyphermox> can't really try it out to see how well it does right now :)
<smoser> right. yeah, i just saw that. thanks.
<smoser> trying that.
<pitti> rbasak, hallyn_: FTR, if I boot with init=/sbin/upstart I still get ulimit -n == 65536
<rbasak> Interesting. I wonder what set it before?
<pitti> where does that default come from? kernel? libc?
<pitti> Riddell: is bug 1362599 still RC? it sounded like you added a workaroud some months ago
<ubottu> bug 1362599 in Kubuntu PPA "ubiquity-dm does not transition to sddm to plasma5 desktop" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1362599
<pitti> or bug 1431332?
<ubottu> bug 1431332 in sddm (Ubuntu) "sddm not starting after upgrade" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1431332
<Riddell> pitti: worse, now if you click "Try Kubuntu" it just goes to a blank screen and I've no idea why :(
<pitti> Riddell: that was my fault, ubiquity .24 fixes that
<Riddell> pitti: oh really?
<pitti> Riddell: if you pick live or istall in the gfxboot menu it should owrk
<pitti> and FTR, typing is hard
<Riddell> ok I'll rebuild the cd images and see what's still broken
<pitti> Riddell: we got a new casper, you might watn to wait for that
<infinity> Riddell: I'll do your images for you.
<Riddell> infinity: ok, I clicked rebuild but feel free to stop if you think it needs to wait
<infinity> Riddell: I can't stop it, but I can re-do it.
<gQuigs> Is there a recent discussion on making btrfs the default file system?  I'm curious if Ubuntu has plans to switch for 15.10/16.04
<strikov> pitti: rbasak: hallyn_ : this fileno limit (to my understanding) comes from kernel because /proc/1/limits contains this 65536 value; pam_limits comes into play later and basically uses /proc/1/limits as defaults; I have no idea why kernel sets 65536 though because it has 1024/4096 in the source code; Looks like a bug
<gQuigs> so far I've only found it last discussed for 12.10 -  http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTEwMDE
<dobey> gQuigs: afaik, there are no plans to deviate from ext as the default
<hallyn_> apw: ^ did we consciously up the fd ulimit?
<rbasak> hallyn_, infinity: who's taking charge of this question? We probably should resolve it before release.
<rbasak> Dropping the limit down in an SRU will not be pleasant.
<rbasak> Failing that, we could configure systemd to set it to 1024 before release.
<rbasak> Then at least we can raise it in an SRU later if safe.
<hallyn_> rbasak: i'm somehwat in favor of leaving it as is
<rbasak> hallyn_: I'm concerned that this could introduce issues in things like server daemons that use select().
<rbasak> Perhaps security issues, given Kees' email.
<rbasak> As we're not sure that everything is rebuilt with the new fortification.
<hallyn_> rbasak: glibc checks for the fd > 1024 and stops the program
<rbasak> hallyn_: not unless stuff is rebuilt though, right? I haven't looked at the patch but have been assuming that.
<hallyn_> no that went into glibc in like 2011 didn't it?
<hallyn_> see the libc buglink at the bottom of kees link you pasted earlier today
<rbasak> Even then, is everything correctly being built with the correct fortification setting?
<rbasak> I'm concerned because this change is one that we deliberately did not make in the past, and now it's happening "by accident".
<strikov> rbasak, hallyn_: i just looked at my vivid machine with trusty kernel and it still has 65536; so it's somehow vivid related
<hallyn_> rbasak: see misc/bits/select2.h in the glibc source
<hallyn_> I don't think userspace can opt out of those checks
<rbasak> #if __USE_FORTIFY_LEVEL > 0 && defined __GNUC__
<rbasak> # include <bits/select2.h>
<rbasak> #endif
<rbasak> hallyn_: ^^
<hallyn_> rbasak: yes, but that's at build time, and i'm telling you it is getting checked :)
<rbasak> <hallyn_> I don't think userspace can opt out of those checks
<rbasak> #undef __USE_FORTIFY_LEVEL and you can, no?
<pitti> rbasak, hallyn_: sorry, seems I botched my init=/sbin/upstart test, my VM didn't have upstart installed; it's indeed 1024 under upstart
<rbasak> dpkg-buildflags says CPPFLAGS=-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 but a build that fails to use that wouldn't do it.
<pitti> hm, grepping systemd for "ulimit" yields nothing except a manpage; where else does that get set?
<pitti> and neither does upstart
<pitti> ah, setrlimit()
<strikov> pitti: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~registry/systemd/master/view/head:/src/core/main.c#L1043
<strikov> pitti: looks suspicious because it bumps to 65536 exactly
<strikov> pitti: it looks like it doesn't revert it back
<pitti>         * PID 1 will now increase its RLIMIT_NOFILE to 64K by default
<pitti>           (but not for its children which will stay at the kernel
<pitti>           default). This should allow setups with a lot more listening
<pitti>           sockets.
<pitti> so apparently that "but not.." doesn't work
<strikov> pitti: i don't understand this code then: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/pam/ubuntu/view/head:/modules/pam_limits/pam_limits.c#L369
<strikov> pitti: pam relies on /proc/1/limits
<pitti> strikov: oh, so it copies pid1's limits -- pid1 has intentionally 64K
<rbasak> pitti: as a workaround we could set DefaultLimitNOFILE in /etc/systemd/system.conf, although conffile prompt.
<pitti> indeed, e. g. crond has 1024
<strikov> pitti: yeah, it gets defaults from /proc/1 and then overwrites it with /etc/security/limits.conf; at least that's my understanding
<pitti> so its children do have 1024, but pam sets it to pid1's instaed of the default for sessions?
<rbasak> Ah
<rbasak> Good job figuring that one out!
<pitti> so we need to set it in /etc/security/limits.conf?
<pitti> (sorry for delay, juggling more installer/plymouth bugs here than I'd ever wanted to look at)
<rbasak> /usr/sbin/lightdm and /usr/bin/X are 1024 on my system.
<rbasak> And lightdm --session-child is 65536.
<rbasak> So that would be consistent with PAM.
<pitti> I'd rather drop a file into /etc/security/limits.d/ instad of changing the conffile
<pitti> right
<rbasak> /etc/security/limits.d/ sounds like it would work and be reasonable to me.
<pitti> so we either drop a conffile snippet there, or we change PAM to not read it from pid 1 but from itself?
<rbasak> If from itself, what about an su-type case?
<rbasak> I have some very limited user but su to root. Should I expect my limit to go up?
<pitti> my gut feeling is that compiled-in default >> conffile, but at this point of the release cycle we might need to make compromises indeed
<infinity> I think the right fix is to switch PAM from using the PID1 defaults to using the defaults of its own process.
<rbasak> Maybe change PAM to read from pid 1, but cap at 1024?
<pitti> rbasak: good point
<strikov> yeah, i don't like removing all defaults, just nofiles=1024 is much better
<pitti> rbasak: trying that here
<rbasak> Even cleaner, cap to FD_SETSIZE.
 * sbeattie hrms, pondering su with an fd limit of 1...
<pitti> yes, it does get inherited :/
<rbasak> What did you try exactly? Limited nofile on user gets inherited on su to root?
<pitti> ulimit -n 50
<pitti> su - joe
<pitti> but in fact that's happening on current vivid
<pitti> i. e. su/pam already inherit from the parent
<pitti> it's just getting the 64K from the initial lightdm session or so?
<hallyn_> rbasak: when I say "userspace can't opt out" I mean for instance liblxc.  obviously you can rebuild and opt out.
<rbasak> pitti: su to root doesn't reset it. But after I've su'd to root, "login -f root" does.
<kees> I was pretty sure pam uses init's values for the defaults, not the parent. that was the whole reason /proc/$pid/limits was added, IIRC
<rbasak> /etc/pam.d/login uses pam_limits.so. /etc/pam.d/su does not.
<rbasak> What does lightdm use? /etc/pam.d/login as well?
<pitti> yes, should all be pam
<pitti> we just checked getty
<rbasak> So I think pam_limits.so reset me back to 65536.
<pitti> getty itself has 1024 as it sohld
<pitti> once you login, the "login" process gets 64K
<rbasak> So I think the fix should be to cap it to FD_SETSIZE in pam_limits.so when reading limits from pid 1.
<infinity> That would work too, sure.
<pitti> rbasak: WFM; this is easier to change in an SRU than conffiles
<infinity> Someone whip up a patch and pass it by slangasek, please.
<infinity> Anything but changing conffiles to work around it.
<rbasak> The pam package is version 1, uses dh --with-quilt, sets export QUILT_PATCH_DIR = debian/patches-applied in debian/rules and if I try to use quilt patches apply with fuzz. WTF?
<rbasak> Well, one patch applies with fuzz.
<mdeslaur> rbasak: yeah, fuzz only fails with src format 3.0
<mdeslaur> it used to be ok, unfortunately
<rbasak> Oh, OK. Thanks.
<Unit193> Howdy.  Two things, 1: Is https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1404783 going to be fixed for trusty?  Would be very useful.  2. Pretty sure no name for 15.10 yet, so no point in poking. :P
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1404783 in compiz (Ubuntu) "warnings from apt: W: Unknown Multi-Arch type 'no' for package 'compiz-core'" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<rbasak> hallyn_, pitti, infinity: previously the hard limit was 4096, and only the soft limit was FD_SETSIZE at 1024. If I cap just the soft limit now, the hard limit will have increased to 65536. I presume this is OK?
<rbasak> kees: ^^
<hallyn_> rbasak: i think that's ok,
<hallyn_> that way lxd can bump its soft limit higher if it wants to.
<hallyn_> (which it probably will)
<hallyn_> while unsuspecting sw is still protected
<rbasak> Yeah that was my logic. I presume that was the previous logic in having a hard limit of 4096 before.
<rbasak> slangasek: could you review http://paste.ubuntu.com/10863087/ please? I'm also not sure how to go about upstreaming this as pam_limits seems to be heavily patched already.
<rbasak> infinity, pitti, hallyn_: ^^
<rbasak> infinity: do you want an upload or a 0-day SRU?
<slangasek> those are the same thing ;)
<slangasek> rbasak: it'll be late afternoon before I can review it fwiw
<rbasak> OK, thanks.
<boax> hello
<boax> i found a critical bug in 15.04!
<boax> it makes the complete system unusable for many cases!!
<boax> can a dev here help me to get able to debug that? The bug was there in 15.04 beta2 and is still there in 15.04 daily build from 21.04.2015!
<boax> the whole X-Server is crashing
<boax> in Xorg i get the message "Cought signal 11" and the server goes down!
<tarpman> boax: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Reporting
<boax> tarpman: yes, i have already reported a bug the one or other time. But i cant find out what could be the problem that causes this bug
<boax> tarpman: are you a dev?
<tarpman> boax: reporting a bug is still the best place to start; apport (ubuntu-bug) will include information that could contain clues, and the bug report is a better place to discuss it
<tarpman> boax: no, just a user
<boax> there are just two days till release. thats critical. i dont think that the normal way would help fix that till release
<boax> http://pastebin.com/9K0W1NwU
<boax> an xorg dev say: <alanc> looks like it crashed in call from libglamoregl.so to libfb.so
<tarpman> boax: bug 1280527 and bug 1443456 look similar
<ubottu> bug 1280527 in xserver-xorg-video-ati (Ubuntu) "Xorg crashed with SIGABRT in fbBltOne()" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1280527
<ubottu> bug 1443456 in xorg-server (Ubuntu) "Xorg crashed with SIGABRT in fbBltOne()" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1443456
<boax> here someone with the same error: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=195666
<boax> what gnome version would be into ubuntu 15.04?
<Unit193> !info gnome3 vivid
<ubottu> Package gnome3 does not exist in vivid
<Unit193> !info gnome-shell vivid
<ubottu> gnome-shell (source: gnome-shell): graphical shell for the GNOME desktop. In component universe, is optional. Version 3.14.4-0ubuntu1 (vivid), package size 623 kB, installed size 6923 kB
<Unit193> boax: 3.14
<boax> Unit193: people report that after updating gnome from 3.14 to recent version the reported bug is gone
<boax> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=194819
<boax> could you please bump the gnome version? the one inside 15.04 is causing such xorg crashes
<boax> tarpman: you was right with bug number 1443456. RAOF  have checked the crash log and told that i have exactly this error
#ubuntu-devel 2015-04-22
<boax> the bug is:  glamor shouldn't be passing in a NULL destination to fbCopy.
<boax> big thanks to RAOF
<jtaylor> doko: why did you patch julia to build on all arches?
<Bluefoxicy> Hmm.  Well good.
<Bluefoxicy> My video card works in Ubuntu 15.04, even though it's still terminally broken in 14.10
<psusi> cyphermox, hey there.. just wanted to make sure you understood my comments on bug #1418706, re the changes you made to partman-auto only masking the problem instead of addressing the root cause... just here if you wanted to discuss it
<ubottu> bug 1418706 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Vivid: UEFI: blank drive incorrectly detected as existing BIOS-mode install" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1418706
<cyphermox> psusi: I'm not denying there may be other issues with installing for EFI right now, but the fix I uploaded is technically correct -- there was a genuine bug in the way partman-auto created the ESP which confused partman-efi. if you manually partition and create no ESP, then that's still bad for an efi setup and ubiquity should prompt (but that prompt should work properly... if it does not, then that's another matter)
<psusi> cyphermox, that's really only a tangentally related issue... partman-auto set the partition to ext2 in partman's view of what partitions to create... but that really doesn't matter... the point is that the init.d script is supposed to be run before the visual.d script from partman-auto ever tries to create any partitions
<psusi> it's supposed to be looking at what partitions are on the disk *before* you tried to install ubuntu... i.e. do you already have a windows install bootign in bios mode
<psusi> the partitions that ubuntu is about to create isn't what it is supposed to see, even if they do not quite accurately reflect the eventual intended use ( fat32 / esp )
<cyphermox> psusi: I thought I had explained this on the bug; the scripts *are* being run in the correct order, but they are also being run more than once, which is a difference from d-i installs, that's why you'd see a message afterwards. that the message is appearing for the "intended" partition set isn't necessarily wrong in this case since it can alerts the user that they are about to do something wrong.
<cyphermox> psusi: btw, what timezone are you in? I really should start getting to bed :P
<psusi> that's the job of the check.d scripts, the init.d scripts are intended to be run only *before* any other scripts ( visual.d ) start making changes in memory
<psusi> EST, us
<psusi> in other words, the check.d scripts warn you that you failed to create an esp and one is needed since you appear to be booting in efi mode... the init.d script is trying to see what OSes you already have installed before any changes are made
<cyphermox> partman-efi's check.d currently doesn't try to warn you about a missing EFI partition
<psusi> I'm pretty sure they do... but they aren't currently working under ubiquity
<cyphermox> regardless, could you file a bug about the very specific issue you're seeing? keeping in mind that currently, partman itself runs more than once, so of course you'll get one run of init.d, visual.d, check.d, and then again with init.d, visual.d, check.d as it goes to handle the partition requests
<psusi> that is to say, that if under d-i, you do manual partitioning, and don't create an esp, the check.d script says hey, you should have done that, go back?
<cyphermox> I don't know, I looked before and I don't recall seeing it
<psusi> when I contacted the debian guys about this, they seemed to be clear thta the scripts are to run in the order of init.d -> visual.d -> check.d... if they are being run again that is an error
<cyphermox> but that said, it was broken anyway, because init.d would write out /var/lib/partman/ignore_efi and thus break later scripts
<cyphermox> and update.d/efi_sync_flags wouldn't fix things either.
<cyphermox> so all in all, it feels like steps in the right direction
<psusi> right... because init.d is supposed to run first, and only if you already have windows that is apparently booting in bios mode, it disables all of the later efi stuff so you don't get the warning about lacking an esp
<psusi> ( since the presumption is that if windows is already installed in bios mode, this machine must be capable of bios boot, even though yuo booted the installer in efi mode )
<cyphermox> that still works
<cyphermox> you can always hit "go back", and you won't be in UEFI mode.
<psusi> only if you hit it within 2-3 seconds... later than that and the dialog box hangs
<cyphermox> AFAIK, besides running partman/parted_server twice, ubiquity currently does more or less the right thing
<cyphermox> fair enough. that's fixable
<psusi> from what the debian guys told me, "the right thing" is to run init.d, then visual.d, then check.d... and NOT go back and run init.d again
<cyphermox> I know it would be best, but things are the way they are
<psusi> since they are all written with the assumption that they are run first
<cyphermox> and things do currently mostly work
<cyphermox> psusi: in other words, if you already have ideas on how to improve the situation and time to work on it, feel free to start on ubiquity's ubi-partman.py
<cyphermox> I don't expect I'll be able to get to anything like that until next week, for sure ;)
<psusi> well, I guess what I'm trying to say is that ubiquity running the scripts a second time is fundamentally broken but I currently lack the time and python/ubiquity knowlege to fix it ;)
<cyphermox> as far as Debian things go, the patches I made to partman-auto still need to make it, because they *do* confuse partman-efi to some degree; bits go missing
<cyphermox> psusi: what I'm saying is it might be broken or suboptimal, but it mostly works, minus some warts like that particular prompt
<psusi> I suppose that does at least avoid the message in the most common case
<cyphermox> making us wait for the prompting to be done / partitioning to be mostly complete can be fixed fairly easily I think
<psusi> but the other really large wart involved here is the fact that when you do get the message, ubiquity seems to hang the window and continue without waiting for the response
<cyphermox> yes
<cyphermox> ^^
<cyphermox> that's because ubiquity currently happily runs through questioning the user for what it needs and doing other work in the background
<psusi> another long standing and likely related bug is that the check.d scripts are supposed to stop you and tell you that you forgot to create a bios_grub partition when you are in a bios booting but gpt partitioned machine and they don't... so later grub install fails and we get crash reports
<cyphermox> so; provided the check scripts run properly, I'm guessing you wouldn't see the dialog anymore either, because it's failure cases would prevent the later run of init.d scripts to trigger thinking things are booted in EFI without an ESP
<cyphermox> psusi: wouldn't that explode on d-i too currently?
<cyphermox> there's only one check.d script for partman-efi, it's doing the too_small_efi and no_efi tests only
<psusi> from what I can tell, the architecture of partman is for init.d to run first, then visual.d, possibly several times, then check.d, possilbly going back to visual.d, then finally commit.d exactly once
<cyphermox> psusi: if you file the bugs for these issues, I'll eventually get to them
 * cyphermox shrugs
<psusi> ok... so I should file a separate bug?  and you consider that one closed?  I wasn't sure since it didn't get closed because you didn't reassign it to partman-auto before uploading that
<cyphermox> psusi: I think we can consider that one closed, as the most common cases don't cause the install to be unusable
<cyphermox> let me fix that
<cyphermox> and it's late, so I'll get some sleep before it's tomorrow. :)
<infinity> slangasek: Did you get around to having opinions about the PAM/FD_SETSIZE thing?
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> rbasak: patch looks good to me; you could perhaps clarify the description that PAM reads the defaults from pid 1 (which is different between upstart and systemd)
<rbasak> pitti: sure - I take it you mean the dep3 description?
<infinity> rbasak: +1 on the patch from me too, if it's tested to DTRT.
<infinity> rbasak: Guessing slangasek is too timezone skewed from us for a timely review, so I'm fine with us getting it in and then letting him complain later.
<rbasak> infinity: thanks. I don't mind waiting, but maybe you actually want it uploaded sooner?
<infinity> rbasak: Well, we can wait a bit, but we'd like to be spinning final ISOs by Uk evening.
<rbasak> OK
<Odd_Bloke> rbasak: infinity: If this is something that we're going to want in the cloud images (which, from my limited understanding of the issue, it is), then UK evening will be pushing getting the images sync'd out everywhere.
<rbasak> Odd_Bloke, infinity: OK I'll fix up and upload now.
<infinity> rbasak: Ta.
<Odd_Bloke> rbasak: Much appreciated.
<infinity> Odd_Bloke: Well, to be fair, we don't imply that the archive will be closed and "released" until Thursday, so one would hope you're prepared to respin cloud images for an emergency.
<infinity> Odd_Bloke: But we'll aim for not having any emergencies. :P
<Odd_Bloke> infinity: We're prepared, but can't do anything about the 12 hour+ replication time in Azure. :p
<Odd_Bloke> So, yeah, let's aim to find problems _after_ release; it's much easier for me that way. ;)
<infinity> Odd_Bloke: Heh.  For me too. :P
<pitti> barry: do you still target bug 1377184 for 15.04?
<ubottu> bug 1377184 in system-image (Ubuntu) "move archive_master file out of /etc to avoid it being treated as a conffile" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1377184
<pitti> barry: if so, now is the time :)
<infinity> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: Final Freeze | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> utopic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: infinity
<seb128> Mirv, hey, I think your bug about click env failing to build a schroot with ecryptfs is bug #1427264
<ubottu> bug 1427264 in click (Ubuntu) "using ecryptfs, creating frameworks fail to bind mount issues" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1427264
<seb128> tyhicks and hallyn_ were discussing it but I don't think anyone managed to get slots to work on it before vivid :-/
<seb128> we should probably recommend app devs to not use ecryptfs
<tjaalton> does pandaboard run armhf?
<Mirv> seb128: ok, good to know that there's an earlier bug about it!
<ogra_> tjaalton, sure ...
<tjaalton> ogra_: ok good, still need to find the power adapter..
<ogra_> not sure if there are still recent images though
<ogra_> (thats a question for infinity )
<infinity> ogra_: There are, though I'm not sure if anyone tests them.  My panda is probably still running precise.
<ogra_> mine hasnt been powered since over a year
 * ogra_ has a sabrelite with proper SATA disk for builds ... way faster ... 
<tjaalton> I'd need trusty to test lts backports
<tjaalton> perhaps makes more sense to just get Rpi2
<tjaalton> meh, out of stock until 15th of may
<flexiondotorg> infinity, I see you are piloting. We discussed this merge last week - https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mate-dev/indicators-gtk2/indicator-application-gtk2/+merge/244116
<flexiondotorg> infinity, Any chance that can be merged and uploaded?
<infinity> flexiondotorg: Erk, I thought we got that in.  I'm not amzingly comfy with doing it right before what I hope will be the final images.
<infinity> flexiondotorg: Because if it *does* break another gtk2 flavour in a way you didn't expect, we'll not notice in time, or we'll delay the release for that flavour.
<flexiondotorg> infinity, You agreed to do it but I guess you got busy.
<flexiondotorg> infinity, So defer this to 15.10?
<infinity> flexiondotorg: Yeah.  I think it's better to do it post-release at this point (so, in 15.10, and as an SRU to 15.04), so it can have more testing.
<flexiondotorg> infinity, I'm happy to just do this for 15.10.
<flexiondotorg> No SRU required.
<infinity> flexiondotorg: Or that, sure.
<sveinse> I'm trying to debootrsap vivid from utopic (debootstrap --variant=minbase vivid), but it fails with "Invalid release signature (key id 40976EAF437D05B5)". Any ideas? debootstrapping jessie worked fine
<rbasak> sveinse: are you running Ubuntu or Debian?
<rbasak> /usr/share/keyrings/ has ubuntu-archive-keyring.gpg which contains that key. I'm not sure what debootstrap uses though.
<rbasak> sveinse: also you might want to check the release signature by hand to check that you don't have some kind of mirror sync issue.
<sveinse> rbasak: I'm running ubuntu (utopic)
<rbasak> sveinse: perhaps you've hit bug 972077 then? The workaround is to retry a bit later.
<ubottu> bug 972077 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt repository disk format has race conditions" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/972077
<pitti> Riddell: bug 1413521 seems relevant for the final release; are you still working on this?
<ubottu> bug 1413521 in kde-workspace (Ubuntu Vivid) "desktop folderview needs to be added on first boot on oem installs" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1413521
<Riddell> pitti: I'm pretty resigned to oem not working properly in this release :(
<Riddell> I tried looking into it last week but was blocked on something not installing oem-config at all
<Riddell> now there's tidying up to do such as https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447144
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447144 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "oem-config forgets to update /etc/sddm.conf" [Undecided,New]
<Riddell> pitti: hang on you're removing milestones, that's the way I get my list of important bugs for kubuntu
<pitti> Riddell: I moved them to vivid-updates for things that can be fixed in SRUs and which are unrealistic to get fixed by "now"
<Riddell> yeah vivid-updates is good
<pitti> Riddell: but the above would be a case where vivid-updates doesn't make sense
<Riddell> pitti: do we have a milestone for whimsy wallnut yet?
<pitti> Riddell: I tried the current kubuntu daily and at least live session and installer seem to work; we are buildling new images now, I'll do a kubuntu test install to check the sddm bugs
<pitti> Riddell: yes, I created 15.05 to 15.10 last week
<Riddell> pitti: remind me again what the monthly milestones are for, I've never used them, are they just for teams that like to target fixes on a monthly basis?
<pitti> Riddell: pretty much, yes
<pitti> Riddell: for vivid series targetted bugs we also have a vivid-updates milestone
<voldyman> robert_ancell: ping
<robert_ancell> voldyman, hello
<voldyman> robert_ancell: thanks for all the help, did you get my last email?
 * voldyman has been bothering robert too much
<voldyman> (greeter)
<robert_ancell> right :)
<robert_ancell> I was wondering who you were for a second
 * voldyman == stalker
<robert_ancell> voldyman, yeah, so you need to work out why the closure is not being called because all sorts of X resources will get left behind otherwise
<robert_ancell> The hoops you have to jump through to set an image on the root window and quit the greeter are a total pain in the ass
 * robert_ancell loves X
<voldyman> i tried using Posix to handle the term signal still didn't work
<robert_ancell> voldyman, you need to use GLib or you'll get all sorts of race conditions
 * robert_ancell loves Unix
<voldyman> the weird thing is, lightdm's log shows that after sending the term signal greeter closed communication channel
<voldyman> but greeter's logs don't indicate any signal was received
<robert_ancell> voldyman, the channel is a socket so the process terminating will close it automatically
<robert_ancell> I mean a pipe
<voldyman> that is what is weird, no signal was received, the debug message after Gtk.main () wasn't logged hence the process wasn't killed
<robert_ancell> voldyman, if the debug message wasn't there doesn't that imply the signal was received and it just didn't get handled?
<voldyman> the debug call is in the code but is not logged hence i believe that, that part of the program wasn't reached or that lightdm closed the log file after sending sigterm
<barry> pitti: re: si3.0 we can't land it until the server changes land
<doko> ogasawara, apw: please be aware of https://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2015-04/msg00278.html
<barry> pitti: so no, not 15.04 :/
<ubottu> gcc bug 2015 in c++ "ICE in find_function_data, at function.c:330" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<pitti> barry: ok, so moving milestone to 15.05 for now
<pitti> barry: ah, you already moved to "later" (does anyone actually use that?)
<robert_ancell> voldyman, if you handle SIGTERM and then do nothing in the handler is LightDM unable to kill the greeter?
<barry> pitti: dunno!  15.05 would be okay too
<robert_ancell> voldyman, that would confirm the handler is working
<voldyman> ah, good idea
<voldyman> robert_ancell: no effect, there was no signal handler before i added it after your email
<doko> bdmurray, barry: what will we do with the requests issue?
<voldyman> robert_ancell: i am totally lost, any more ideas? or any direction you would point me to?
<barry> doko, bdmurray i'm not sure what to do.  i can't reproduce it
<robert_ancell> voldyman, no idea. You need to confirm that you can handle SIGTERM and you are cleaning up on exit. Perhaps you need an explicit destruct method for the singleton.
<voldyman> hmm, i'll check that.
<voldyman> robert_ancell: Thanks a ton for all the help, i have bugged you a lot
<robert_ancell> voldyman, np
<robert_ancell> voldyman, I hope you get it working soon! It took us ages to get it to work for unity-greeter
<voldyman> robert_ancell: i'll surely shoot you a an email when and if i am able to fix it
<pitti> Riddell: I just did a kubuntu install with today's image, no problems with shutdown or sddm \o/
<Riddell> pitti: awooga, thanks :)
<Riddell> pitti: did you get bug 1436952 ?
<ubottu> bug 1436952 in xorg (Ubuntu) "X crashes on some runs of Kubuntu live image returning in SDDM login" [Critical,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1436952
<pitti> Riddell: do you still want to keep bug 1362599 open, or close it?
<ubottu> bug 1362599 in Kubuntu PPA "ubiquity-dm does not transition to sddm to plasma5 desktop" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1362599
<pitti> Riddell: no, all went well
<pitti> Riddell: I only tested in QEMU so far, though; we can give it another shot on real hw
<Riddell> pitti: bug 1362599 can be closed
<Riddell> pitti: well I have several testers already, I expect you have other stuff needed tested :)
<pitti> Riddell: ok, so much the better
<pitti> Riddell: so we still have three 15.04 bugs about kubuntu/oem; so you're saying we don't care for this cycle? (most OEMs would only install LTSes anyway these days, I figure?)
<bdmurray> doko: we can manually override a particular crash
<Riddell> pitti: right, I'll just have to release note it
<voldyman> robert_ancell: i think i might have found the problem
<voldyman> i am using get_screen instead of Gdk.Screen.get_default and hence drawing on the windows root window not the X's root window
<voldyman> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~voldyman/pantheon-greeter/retain-back/view/head:/src/PantheonGreeter.vala#L301
<voldyman> changed it but can't confirm the patch on Gnome-Boxes, waiting for another tester to confirm if this works
<robert_ancell> voldyman, get_screen should return the same as Gdk.Screen.get_default as you tend to only have one "screen" on an X server.
<voldyman> :/
<voldyman> then another theory that i have is that, unity greeter has a main class that creates the window, pantheon greeter does everything from the window. that might be the reason why the window won't go away
<slangasek> infinity, rbasak: I agree that capping the soft limit is correct behavior, GTM
<slangasek> +L
<infinity> slangasek: Excellent, cause that's what we did. ;)
<voldyman> robert_ancell: i removed the RetainPermanent part and it worked enough for us, also found the reason for sig term, some function somewhere was calling Posix.exit :)
<rbasak> slangasek: great. Thanks!
<pitti> rbasak, slangasek: on a fresh server install my ulimit -n is 1024 again, FTR
<rbasak> \o/ thanks
<roaksoax-afk> pitti: https://pastebin.canonical.com/129999/
<roaksoax-afk> pitti: any ideas?
<pitti> roaksoax: oops, no
<pitti> roaksoax: which arch/environment is that?
<roaksoax> pitti: amd64 VM
<roaksoax> pitti: apparently when installing isc-dhcpd-server works just fine, but when isntalling maas-dhcpd (from ppa:maas-maintainers/experimental) just fails
<pitti> roaksoax: I tried with vivid's maas, and that fails with http://paste.ubuntu.com/10866717/ ; I'm trying the PPA now
<pitti> roaksoax: can reproduce
<roaksoax> pitti: any ideas as to why?
<roaksoax> pitti: i'm fixing vivid maas now
<pitti> roaksoax: no, haven't seen that yet
<pitti> roaksoax: I uploaded the apport crash report, bug 1447243 now
<ubottu> bug 1447243 in systemd (Ubuntu) "systemd crashes with Assertion 'current[*l + 1] == quotechars[0]' failed at ../src/shared/util.c:583," [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447243
<roaksoax> pitti: thanks!
<roaksoax> pitti: yeah, it completely crashes vivid in my case. I reboot after that failure and the machine never finishes coming up
<pitti> roaksoax: yeah, it seems to mess up qemu, not even system_reset works
<pitti> roaksoax: so, at first sight I'd say this assertion sounds like a quoting issue in one of the units
<pitti> roaksoax: so, of course we'll fix systemd to not spill its guts that way, but I guess we also have a typo in some unit
<roaksoax> pitti: ok, i'll investigate that, but then maas-dhcpd.postinst does this: systemctl stop isc-dhcp-server >/dev/null || true systemctl disable isc-dhcp-server >/dev/null || true
<roaksoax> pitti: that should be ok right? or might that be causing the issue to happen?
<pitti> roaksoax: that looks fine
<roaksoax> pitti: this seems to be the unit with the source of the issue: http://paste.ubuntu.com/10866808/
<pitti> roaksoax: apport just did its thing and we now have https://launchpadlibrarian.net/204019277/Stacktrace.txt
<pitti> roaksoax: that indeed looks like it: filename = 0x7fe715ffddb0 "/lib/systemd/system/maas-dhcpd.service"
<roaksoax> pitti: ok, I'll investigate
<roaksoax> thanks
<pitti> roaksoax: me too
<pitti> roaksoax: i. e. narrowing down the crash and cause
<infinity> rbasak: If you still think LP: #1434758 should be mentioned in the release notes, can you please add some text about it and close the bug?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1434758 in Release Notes for Ubuntu "mysqld: errno: 24 - Too many open files" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1434758
<pitti> roaksoax: I found a much faster/simpler non-machine crashing reproducer, in the bug now
<pitti> roaksoax: you can check with systemd-analyze verify foo.service
<roaksoax> pitti: oh nice!!
<pitti> roaksoax: so that gives us a means to change the syntax until it stops crashing
<pitti> roaksoax: as a local workaround to unblock you until this gets fixed properly
<pitti> roaksoax: curiously it doesn't crash on my laptop
<roaksoax> pitti: uhmmm interesting... so it is only happening on a VM?
<pitti> roaksoax: unlikely, this is just a parser error; more likely related to different locale or what not, currently trying to find out
<pitti> roaksoax: that's mostly relevant for creating an upstream unit test
<pitti> roaksoax: got it
<pitti> roaksoax: second-last line has a space after the \
<roaksoax> pitti: ah!!
<pitti> roaksoax: fix that, and it shold work
<roaksoax> pitti: great! thanks!
<pitti> roaksoax: but thanks for finding this, it'll make a nice test case
<pitti> roaksoax: it shold just fail with "boo bad syntax"
<roaksoax> pitti: althoguh, quite silly that systemd freaks out just for a whitespce :)
<pitti> roaksoax: well, sure
<pitti> roaksoax: it is broken shell either way, though, so it has to be fixed in the unit anyway
<peppelakappa> hello guys, i'm doing a little research about some patch you use in the graphic stack. ubuntu seems to be the only distro out there that can use all the resolutions of a retina macbook pro out of the box. anyone have info about this?
<pitti> roaksoax: I get it locally as well now
<pitti> roaksoax: so, I'll write an upstream test case and get that fixed, thanks for pointing out; scary :)
<roaksoax> pitti: hehe indeed... :) and someone complained about pustart.. and systemd freaks out for a white space :)
<jtaylor> hi, is em1_1 a valid name for a nic device? because /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/vlan does not have a sed clause for that
<jtaylor> and screws up setting up the vlan during boot :(
<cjwatson> mhall119: Hi, it looks like when you registered https://launchpad.net/sprints/uos-1505 you didn't notice that we fixed https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/1391281 a while back
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1391281 in Launchpad itself "Support UDS (UOS) virtual format for sprint attendance" [Low,Fix released]
<cjwatson> mhall119: If you edit the sprint and uncheck "Is the sprint being held in a physical location?", then attendees won't have to answer the Physically/Remotely question
<rbasak> infinity: will do
<roaksoax> pitti: so invoke-rc.d no longer works for systemd units?
<sarnold> roaksoax: I think the intention is for invoke-rc.d to work, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers#Commands
<roaksoax> sarnold: thanks!
#ubuntu-devel 2015-04-23
<mhall119> cjwatson: thanks, I didn't know that
 * mhall119 has corrected it now
<cjwatson> mhall119: great, thanks
<mhall119> YokoZar: have you looked to see what it would take to make wine talk natively to Mir?
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> roaksoax: it does, what's wrong in your particular case?
<larsu> morning!
<robert_ancell> larsu, good morning to you!
<larsu> robert_ancell: thanks! How are you today?
<robert_ancell> larsu, I am doing quite well, thank you for asking.
<happyaron> Laney: can you approve ubuntukylin-wallpapers from the queue?
<Laney> no
<Laney> ask infinity, but seriously today is release day
<happyaron> Laney: yes seriously
<happyaron> infinity: ping
<infinity> happyaron: yes?
<happyaron> infinity: can you approve ubuntukylin-wallpapers from the queue? (and a respin of the ubuntukylin image as well, I know it's very late, but they said yes)
<infinity> happyaron: Oh dear.  That upload is very, very late.  Are you prepared to re-test both Kylin ISOs Very Very Very Very quickly if we push that through and rebuild?
<happyaron> infinity: yes
<happyaron> infinity: there are people prepared
 * happyaron actually getting those updates hours ago
<infinity> happyaron: I was planning on pushing to mirrors literally in the next half hour, so Kylin will end up behind that.  But I don't want it to be any more than, say, 4 or 5 hours from now.
<happyaron> understand
<rbasak> infinity: [bug 1434758] done.
<ubottu> bug 1434758 in Release Notes for Ubuntu "mysqld: errno: 24 - Too many open files" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1434758
<rbasak> (release noted)
<infinity> rbasak: Ta.
<infinity> happyaron: Rebuilding the kylin ISOs now.  Please make sure people are ready to test as soon as they spit out the other end of the sausage factory.
<happyaron> ok
<Laney> happy distribution data outdated day
<roaksoax> pitti: howdy! so I upgraded to vivid yesterday and it wont boot :)
<roaksoax> pitti: i took a pic of it, having filed a bug or checked this is due to the systemd unit we saw yesterday
<roaksoax> pitti: but I;ll send it your way before i file a bug and / or investigate if it is due to that
<pitti> roaksoax: ah, do you have that broken dhcp unit installed? that will make it not boot indeed
<roaksoax> pitti: i think i do, I have not investigated just yet. But will do during the course of the day!
<pitti> roaksoax: so boot with upstart once, remove the faulty unit, boot back
<roaksoax> pitti: it won't event boot recovery boot
<pitti> roaksoax: I have teh fix uploaded to the SRU queue
<roaksoax> pitti: awesome!
<pitti> roaksoax: that'll just reject the unit and complain about the garbage at the end
<pitti> but not spill its guts
<roaksoax> pitti: ok cool!
<pitti> roaksoax: or better yet, instead of removing the unit, just remove the faulty space and it should be all good :)
<roaksoax> pitti: indeed :)
<pitti> roaksoax: got your photo; that's for sure the trailing space after \ from yesterday
<roaksoax> pitti: ok, cool! thanks!
<shadeslayer> uh, can anyone expand a bit more on the move to snappy for the desktop bits ?
<ogra_> shadeslayer, ask #snappy ... or #ubuntu-desktop ;)
<roaksoax> pitti: this doesn't seem to work, does it? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/10871205/
<ScottK> ogra_: That'd be something with a little broader impact than just Ubuntu desktop.
<pitti> roaksoax: if pre_start is something executable, it should work; what does systemctl status say?
<ogra_> ScottK, why ?
<roaksoax> pitti: let me reinstall
<ogra_> ScottK, nobody will stop the old stuff from being relevant ...
<ScottK> Because every single flavor uses things in common with Ubuntu Desktop.
<shadeslayer> ^^ why I'm interested
<ogra_> ScottK, and that wont go away ...
<pitti> roaksoax: (also, there's something really wrong with piling up lots of shell into upstart scripts or systemd units, but let's worry about that next cycle)
<pitti> shadeslayer: debs won't go away anytime soon -- after all, we need to build things like server, phone, or snappy itself from something; but I figure the install "products" may move to becoming snaps/frameworks instead of today's isos
<shadeslayer> hm
 * shadeslayer makes a note to track the UOS session for this
<infinity> happyaron: We tested your 1386/amd64 ISOs here, and they seem to be fine.
<roaksoax> pitti: figured it out, missing ';'
<pitti> infinity: autocmd FileType changelog,python :setlocal expandtab
* infinity changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: Break Time | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> utopic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: infinity
<infinity> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: Break Time | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures -> http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of lucid -> utopic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<ogra_> jodh, around ?
<ogra_> jodh, we have a small prob on the phones, seems upstart segfaults and pushes them into a reboot loop ... http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/10872934/
<YokoZar> mhall119: No, and I don't have a volunteer to even investigate wine->mir at this point.  Unless you want to give mlankhorst company time to do it :)
<happyaron> infinity: thanks! late reply on laptop though
<happyaron> infinity: is participating the celebration at blue fin
<tjaalton> YokoZar: that would be intel's time, so maybe not :)
<dobey> is the 'lxcguest' package supposed to exist somewhere? lxc-create is complaining about it and failing, trying to create a vivid lxc on a newly installed trusty host, for me
<sarnold> infinity: "Qt updated to version XX"
<sarnold> infinity: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/VividVervet/ReleaseNotes
#ubuntu-devel 2015-04-24
<pragomer> Hello. Searching for a channel where I can ask a specific question about ubuntu-remastering (its a basic/beginners question).
<dholbach> good morning
<pitti> Good morning
<larsu> morning!
<infinity> sarnold: Good thing it's a wiki.
<mhall119> YokoZar: I'm not in a position where I can tell anybody what to work on :)
<caribou> Laney: morning, I've just submitted LP: #1447662 request to backport to trusty
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447662 in trusty-backports "Please backport sosreport fix for OpenStack Neutron plugin" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447662
<caribou> Laney: it's just a fix over the existing package, do you still need the whole template ?
<caribou> Laney: well, you or anybody in the backport team
<pitti> infinity: /usr/share/ubuntu-drivers-common/fake-devices-wrapper ubuntu-drivers
<LocutusOfBorg1> hi pitti congrats for the systemd release!
<LocutusOfBorg1> (congrats to everybody)
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg1: cheers!
<LocutusOfBorg1> I'm enjoying my new vivid system right now <3
<ScottK> rbasak: Bug #1438745 looks like an excellent target for an early Vivid SRU.
<ubottu> bug 1438745 in clamav (Ubuntu) "package clamav-daemon 0.98.6+dfsg-1ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 2" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1438745
<rbasak> ScottK: thanks. I think I just screwed that up by adding a Vivid task assuming that W is open it but it isn't. Never mind. Anyway, I'll get it done.
<rbasak> ScottK: bit short of time between now and a Canonical sprint running next week though, so might not get to it for a few days, sorry.
<ScottK> Feel free to ping me to review for ubuntu-sru when it's uploaded.
<rbasak> Ack, thanhks.
<rbasak> strikov: ^^ is that something you'd like to have a stab at, if you're free? Looks very straightforward - just need to spend a bit of time reproducing/testing fix/verifying.
<strikov> rbasak: i'm mostly done with it; i have an appointment right now -- so i'll finish it and send to you in ~2 hours. does it work?
<jamespage> sarnold, hey - thanks for the conntrack security review
<rbasak> strikov: sure! Thanks.
<jamespage> mucho appreciated.
<pitti> kirkland: hate, hate, hate swap :/ (bug 1447282)
<ubottu> bug 1447282 in ecryptfs-utils (Ubuntu Vivid) "Does not use encrypted swap when using GPT partitioning + encrypted home directory (ecryptfs)" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1447282
<cjwatson> pitti: New ddebs are on.  Can you watch out for strange mails from ddeb-retriever?
<wgrant> cjwatson: He left for his flight a few minutes after I finished poking the bits, so he's aware but not around.
<cjwatson> Ah, OK.
<cjwatson> I've arranged for ddeb mail to go to me as well for the time being, then.
<wgrant> Sounds good.
<parnstermia> i want to do a graphical interface of my c++ program, what language do you recomend to start with this?
<rbasak> parnstermia: try #ubuntu-app-devel
<dobey> why would lxc-create complain about lxcguest not being available when trying to create a vivid lxc?
<strikov> rbasak: ScottK: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/clamav/+bug/1438745/comments/5
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1438745 in clamav (Ubuntu Vivid) "package clamav-daemon 0.98.6+dfsg-1ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 2" [High,Triaged]
<rbasak> strikov: thanks! I'll review so ScottK can ack the SRU.
<strikov> rbasak: thanks
<rbasak> ScottK: uploaded, waiting for approval in vivid-proposed please.
<rbasak> ScottK: maybe better to skip ageing period too, as users are going to hit it on upgrade only, and we've only just released?
<ScottK> Perhaps.
<ScottK> rbasak: Accepted.  Thanks.
<bdmurray> jdstrand: Do you know what package I should report this (recommending apt-get) about? http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/10874819/
<rbasak> bdmurray: I think the locale warning message comes from cloud-init if that's what you're asking.
<rbasak> bdmurray: and I sometimes see that if I ssh to an instance before cloud-init is done (on non-snappy instances).
<bdmurray> rbasak: it is, thanks
<jdstrand> bdmurray: not otoh. If you file against ubuntu-snappy in ubuntu, or snappy-ubuntu the project, someone will get it to the right place
<doko> pitti, still online?
<ScottK> rbasak: Someone needs to verify the clamav upload before I can consider waiving the age.
<rbasak> Understood.
<rbasak> strikov: will you have time to do the verification, please?
<rbasak> I'm EOD and will generally be gone until I arrive at the sprint.
<rbasak> (around Monday lunchtime, as I have a prior commitment)
<strikov> rbasak: will do; see you; have a safe flight
<rbasak> Thanks, you too. See you there!
<strikov> ScottK: verification done for #1438745
<strikov> ScottK: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/clamav/+bug/1438745
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1438745 in clamav (Ubuntu Vivid) "package clamav-daemon 0.98.6+dfsg-1ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 2" [High,Fix committed]
<ScottK> rbasak: (and strikov if he were here) - clamav released.  There's a new upload in Debian, so it can be merged when "w" opens and then there's no version mismatch risk to worry about.
<arges> hallyn_: i see your bug...
<bdmurray> barry: I just sent you an email about the python-pip regressions as I've figured out what was up.
<hallyn_> arges: "upgrade to backport kernels already' is a fair solution
<barry> bdmurray: cool
<arges> hallyn_: yea it would be good to know if 3.16 works fine with that configuration
<hallyn_> arges: i have several containers (including this irc) running on that so switching takes some time :)
<hallyn_> but i'm happy to try, maybe monday
<hallyn_> (probably not from the airport :)
<rbasak> ScottK: thank you!
<rbasak> ScottK: hmm. https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/clamav/+publishinghistory suggests it's not in vivid-updates.
<ev> pitti: do we not install Recommends in autopkgtesting by policy? Trusty python3-pandas has a bunch of skipped tests because python3-numexpr isn't installed.
#ubuntu-devel 2015-04-25
<ScottK> rbasak: OK.  Tried to copy it over again.
<ScottK> rbasak: Fixed.
<peat-psuwit> Do you have any tip for compiling gst-plugins-bad1.0?
<peat-psuwit> it says it cannot find mir_toolkit/mir_c
<peat-psuwit> lient_library.h
<pitti> ev: yes, to verify correct Depends:; but tests can have Restrictions: needs-recommends
<pitti> cjwatson_: thanks, will watch out! but I think wgrant disabled them again anyway, until we sort out the binary version issue, right?
<wgrant> pitti: Yeah, disaled everywhere now, though there was one set of builds (clamav) in the primary archive that ddeb-retriever should have caught.
<wgrant> I haven't checked if it did.
<teward> this may sound a little weird, but is it possible to force apt install failure / crash bugs to also include the systemd status command for the individual application that failed?  'Cause https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nginx/+bug/1447294 shows that it failed to install with error 1, but not actual information about *why* it failed.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1447294 in nginx (Ubuntu Vivid) "package nginx-full 1.6.2-5ubuntu3 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [High,Incomplete]
<teward> my guess is it started nginx but it failed to bind, but apport didn't include that data.
<teward> (it only put the DpkgTerminalHistory, which states there was an error and to run additional commands to get status or try and find the problem)
<teward> i think maybe its better asked as, "Is it possible to instruct Apport to include additional output from commands for a given package when a bug is filed for it?"
<teward> and if so how
<cjwatson_> teward: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport#Per-package_Apport_Hooks
<teward> cjwatson: thanks
<brendand_> anyone might know how i ended up with two cursors on the scren after upgrading to the final cut of vivid?
<brendand_> one of which doesn't do anything, and is making life extremely difficult right now
<brendand_> also lost the ctrl+alt+t terminal short cut - can't remember how to restore that...
<brendand_> it is set in keyboard settings...
<tnkhanh> hi where do I download the latest ubuntu on dev branch
<teward> tnkhanh: Ubuntu 15.04 was released as stable a couple days ago.  W-series isn't open yet, though, so it probably doesn't yet have anything for a 'dev branch'
<teward> unless i'm misunderstanding what you're asking
<tnkhanh> teward: ok I see
<tnkhanh> teward: I just want to be always up-to date ;)
<tnkhanh> teward: I installed the dev branch one off 15.04 a month earlier, will it be the same as the released one now?
<teward> tnkhanh: you can either do a complete reinstall with the final images, or `sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get dist-upgrade` and get all the updates since then
<teward> since the repositories still exist, and they *do* change a lot during dev
<tnkhanh> teward: I see, I justt did the sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade thing
<teward> in either case the repositories are still the same 'location' - just doing a typical apt-get upgrade (or dist-upgrade to force all the updates) will get you to the current state of the repositories
<teward> i'd make sure thoug that you have -updates and -security repositories enabled as well in your sources.list as well
<teward> s/will get you/should get you/
<tnkhanh> thanks, I see
<tnkhanh> er what do you mean by "s/will get you"
<teward> tnkhanh: 'sed'
<teward> tnkhanh: IRC version of saying "Where I said 'will get you' i meant to say 'should get you'"
<teward> but it's ultimately the same thing as I said before
<tnkhanh> teward: ohh I see, weird IRC stuff
<teward> really it's just shorthand but meh
<teward> a short way of saying "Find this in my last statement, and replace it with this because I mistyped"
<teward> irrelevant to the ultimate point though
<tnkhanh> lol amazing
#ubuntu-devel 2015-04-26
<nucc1> if you don't mind my asking, if I have installed libgpg-error with prefix /Users/fanen/gtk/inst/ and i'm trying to build libgcrypt, but it won't find libgpg-error even though I specified the same exact prefix
<nucc1> how exactly am I supposed to specify install location with the : âwith-libgpg-error-prefix argument for configure?
<mpt> Apport is reporting an error in /usr/share/apport/apportcheckresume? Aw3some
<mpt> Oh, itâs a KernelOops â¦ So why does it give that as the path, then? Should be /usr/bin/linux or whatever
<mpt> (Reported bug 1448635 for that)
<ubottu> bug 1448635 in apport (Ubuntu) "KernelOops shows ExecutablePath as "/usr/share/apport/apportcheckresume"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1448635
<irctc829> Has the name for 15.10 been announced yet?
<mitya57> irctc829: no
<irctc829> mitya57: thanks
<rbasak> ScottK: thank you!
#ubuntu-devel 2016-04-25
<austin987> hi there, I'm the upstream for winetricks, and I've noticed that Ubuntu's version is ridiculously out of date. I keep getting bugs filed by Ubuntu users that think they have the latest, while ubuntu is shipping a 2 year old version. The maintainer (Scott Ritchie) is no longer active, so the package and its bugs is getting no attention. I'd like to know what sort of bug I should file to request that the package be marked
<austin987> abandoned / needs new maintainer
<austin987> I'm concerned that if I file one against winetricks in LP that it too will be ignored...
<austin987> example issue: https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40514#c8
<ubottu> bugs.winehq.org bug 40514 in -unknown "Photoshop CS6: crashes when open any image" [Normal,Closed: duplicate]
<cpaelzer> good morning
<dholbach> @pilot in
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Xenial (16.04) Released! | Archive: closed | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-xenial | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots: dholbach
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> mapreri: ah, well spotted (this is a fairly new icon from last week's debci merge); will fix
<austin987> hi there, I'm the upstream for winetricks, and I've noticed that Ubuntu's version is ridiculously out of date. I keep getting bugs filed by Ubuntu users that think they have the latest, while ubuntu is shipping a 2 year old version. The maintainer (Scott Ritchie) is no longer active, so the package and its bugs is getting no attention. I'd like to know what sort of bug I should file to request that the package be marked
<austin987> abandoned / needs new maintainer. I'm concerned that if I file one against winetricks in LP that it too will be ignored...
<dholbach> you could bring it up on the ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.u.c mailing list
<austin987> dholbach, okay. Is a subscription required?
<dholbach> austin987, if it ends up in the moderation queue, somebody will let it through
<austin987> dholbach, cool, thanks
<dholbach> anytime
<austin987> sent
<sam_yan> can not connect to X server:0  Is there someone who knows the reason?
<mgedmin> W: Can't drop privileges for downloading as file '/var/lib/update-notifier/package-data-downloads/partial/adobe-flashplugin_20160407.1.orig.tar.gz'
<mgedmin> couldn't be accessed by user '_apt'. - pkgAcquire::Run (13: Permission denied)
<mgedmin> ah, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-notifier/+bug/1570141
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1570141 in update-notifier (Ubuntu) "Can't drop privileges for downloading as file '/var/lib/update-notifier/package-data-downloads/partial/andale32.exe' couldn't be accessed by user '_apt'. - pkgAcquire::Run (13: Permission denied)" [Undecided,Incomplete]
<ice9> I want to submit bug but I'm not sure from which package is the cause, can someone help?
<seb128> hey there
<seb128> bug #1574285 ... is anybody in foundation wanting to SRU that fix to xenial? seems to create upgrade issues
<ubottu> bug 1574285 in libreoffice (Ubuntu) "dpkg-maintscript-helper: prepare_dir_to_symlink can never succeed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574285
<seb128> infinity, pitti, ^?
<pitti> seb128: http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/dpkg/dpkg.git/diff/?id=ca5c108 looks easy enough, yes; do we have some way to reproduce it, for testing?
<seb128> pitti, I'm unsure, Bjoern flagged it as an issue, but I think he picked up from the reports
<seb128> pitti, asked on desktop (unsure why he's not on -devel)
<Mirv> pitti: is s390x stuck? http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.shtml just things in queue, nothing running
<pitti> Mirv: yes, they segfault ATM, this is high on my list
<pitti> Mirv: I disabled s390x for ubuntu testing for now
<pitti> xnox: and aupkg01 is AWOL again, if you could reboot/prod it please?
<Mirv> pitti: ok thanks for confirming
<pitti> xnox: no idea why this suddenly starts acting up like that :/
<Mirv> Saviq: ^ you'll be interested in that since silo 19 is not in QA queue because of that
<Saviq> Mirv, ack, thanks
<xnox> pitti, some test must be killing it. We have posix something killing zvm hosts
<xnox> pitti, any idea from logs what was the last thing started on it to run tests?
<pitti> xnox: I can tell you when I can get back to the machine
<pitti> xnox: I guess I should enable persistent journal on these things, but rsyslog ought to have it too
<xnox> it detected cpu task stalls
<xnox> with kthreads starved for ever
 * xnox is killing it
<pitti> xnox: curious, I notice them on arm64 scalingstack instances (bug 1531768), but I never saw them on s390x (until it started hanging last week)
<ubottu> bug 1531768 in linux (Ubuntu) "[arm64] locks up some time after booting" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1531768
<pitti> they ran for months without that, so maybe some change in the xenial kernel or a new test indeed
<pitti> but then, .13 took over all the work and it didn't crash so far
<pitti> anyway, right now they just segfault right away, so this needs to be investigated first
<xnox> pitti, i think it should be booted now.
<xnox> but i don't see login prompt
<pitti> ssh still hangs
 * xnox ponders if it kexeced
<xnox> pitti, try again?
<pitti> xnox: thanks
<pitti> xnox: fun, and .12 does not segfault
<pitti> so I now have an unstable one which works and a stable one which always fails, great :)
<pitti> and both are up to date xenial
<xnox> enable logging, such that we catch the trigger =/
<xnox> or do you want me to script reboot every 6h? =)
<pitti> Apr 23 01:10:52 aupkg01 kernel: [41802.586805] Unable to handle kernel pointer dereference in virtual kernel address space
<pitti> Apr 23 01:10:52 aupkg01 kernel: [41802.586809] failing address: 0404c00180000000 TEID: 0404c00180000803
<pitti> Apr 23 01:10:52 aupkg01 kernel: [41802.586811] Fault in home space mode while using kernel ASCE.
<pitti> and from then on there's more kernel spew
<pitti> xnox: I do have logs
<pitti> before that it did a dozen DCHP requests on lxcbr0
<pitti> xnox: and I can reconstruct the list of running tests from syslog
 * pitti saves syslog
<pitti> xnox: actually, these "Unable to handle kernel pointer dereference" already started on Apr 22, one day before it finally hung
<pitti> xnox: aupkg02 has them too
<seb128> is launchpad timeouting for others as well?
<seb128> when trying to edit bugs
<dholbach> @pilot out
* udevbot changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Xenial (16.04) Released! | Archive: closed | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-xenial | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<LocutusOfBorg> dholbach, I replied to LP: #535686 thanks
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 535686 in widelands "Putting a flag on an existing road raise uncatched exception" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/535686
<LocutusOfBorg> LP: #1535686
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1535686 in libgksu (Ubuntu) "please merge libgksu 2.0.13~pre1-8 from debian" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1535686
<FredTheNoob> Good Morning, I'd installed Ubuntu on my USB Flash Drive, it was because my hard drive is dead... I'm wondering if there some way to move that usb OS to my new hd?
<cpaelzer> I hae a packet that now gets an example in a /etc/defaults/... file that will depend on a certain version of another packet. Other than for that example the two packets work fine without the version restriction. I wonder if I should add a version specific info in the Depends on debian/control.
<cpaelzer> The debian policy was not specific enough about that - so it would be great if anybody would have an advice.
<cpaelzer> I could - as an alternative - put that version dependency in a comment along the example it that would be more appropriate
<cjwatson> (The English word is "package", not "packet".)  Is the addition of the versioned dependency likely to be inconvenient for anyone?
<cjwatson> Policy doesn't talk about this because it's a situation-dependent judgement call.
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: I don't think that it is very inconvenient, I can't think of a reason to really pin it
<cjwatson> And doesn't have to be prescribed for interoperability.
<cjwatson> I would add the versioned dependency if it seems unlikely to be a bother to anyone, and otherwise document it somewhere.
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: thanks - that it comes down to a "situation-dependent judgement call" is all I needed - I can discuss witrh the package owner then
<cpaelzer> yeah, adding the dependency in my initial suggestion is the way I'll go
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: thanks
<cjwatson> np
<cpaelzer> and sorry for the packet/package
<cjwatson> cpaelzer: It's a common false friend for German speakers, I think possibly some other languages too ...
<maswan> swedish has the same
<pitti> doko: is http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html#gcc-6 the default compiler in yakkety already? the linux regression is not a build but a runtime test regression
<pitti> apw: ^ timed out in a test, is that known?
<pitti> doko: if gcc-5 is still the default, then i'm happy to let gcc-6 in; if gcc-6 is already the default, then this might be a mis-build of the kernel?
<doko> pitti, gcc-5 stays the default til around June/July
<aniruddhab> Hello, when I run sudo apt-get install crossbuild-essential-armhf
<pitti> doko: ack, ignoring that linux failure then, thanks
<aniruddhab> It replaces my libc6-dev with libc6-dev:armhf
<aniruddhab> Is there a way to keep both?
<doko> sil2100, could you forward https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dee/1.2.7+15.04.20150304-0ubuntu3 ?
<doko> Mirv, any progress with https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qtbase-opensource-src/5.5.1+dfsg-16ubuntu8 ?
<Odd_Bloke> I have a changelog line that fixes multiple bugs; does it matter how I format it?  "blah blah (LP: #123, LP: #456)" or "blah blah (LP: #123) (LP: #456)" or ...?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 123 in Launchpad itself "There's no direct way to see the project info when translating it" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/123
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 456 in libgtk-java (Ubuntu) "Unable to upgrade #2" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/456
<rbasak> Odd_Bloke: I@
<rbasak> Odd_Bloke: I'm not sure, but you can verify the result by examining the changes file that building a source package generates.
<Odd_Bloke> rbasak: Aha, thanks!
<cjwatson> Odd_Bloke: As well as what rbasak said, the regex is in /usr/share/perl5/Dpkg/Vendor/Ubuntu.pm:find_launchpad_closes
<doko> jamespage, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ceph/10.1.2-0ubuntu2
<Mirv> doko: no time yet to look at it.
<Mirv> that rebuild should be useful to see if any of the four failing tests were flaky or consistent
<apw> pitti, not know no
<apw> pitti, that doesn't reboot onto the built kernel, right?  so it can't be a gcc related issue
<apw> (onto the one gcc-6 built)
<pitti> apw: it isn't even built with gcc-6, the default is still gcc-5
<pitti> apw: gcc-6 triggering linux is more like an accident
<apw> ahh point
<apw> pitti, so whatever it is it shouldn't block gcc-6
<pitti> apw: right, I already unblocked it, but that linux regression won't just go away I figure
<apw> pitti, so the x86s are both an RTC issue we've been seeing intermittantly
<underyx> I tried to upgrade my SO's machine yesterday with `do-release-upgrade -d` from 14.04 to 16.04 and it failed horribly because udev's dpkg configure step said 'input group already exists and is not a system group' and just gave up after that
<underyx> setting the input group's ID to <1000 and then dpkg reconfing everything fixed the issue
<underyx> just thought I'd give you a heads up that this can break an upgrade, I use mac/windows myself and have no idea how bug reporting in the ubuntu world works but hopefully someone can take it from here
<dobey> underyx: just run "ubuntu-bug udev" on the ubuntu computer, and it will basically walk you through reporting a bug against that package; but since you had an input group > 1000, it sounds like probably it was manually added/changed somehow; maybe the postinst should handle that by forcing it back to the right gid though
<underyx> dobey: that solution is what I was kinda going to suggest
<underyx> she's no power user and I'm sure she didn't manually tinker with the gid
<underyx> so if it was changed, it must have been changed by some fairly popular package
<juliank> pitti: You're funny. You merged the pre-depends commit for apt into xenial, and I precisely hold out doing a new APT bug fix release because I did not want to endanger xenial with that commit (but wanted the others :/)
<juliank> I think we do a 1.2.11 bug fix release now and could then SRU this in a week or so?
<doko> ginggs, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/yade/1.20.0-8ubuntu1 not really fixing the ftbfs ;)
<pitti> juliank: well, given how much this breaks upgrades, we don't have much choice :) we even fast-tracked this into trusty and wily, but still get dozens of new dupes
<juliank> pitti: I just released 1.2.11, we should sync that tomorrow, and then check if it's SRU-able
<pitti> juliank: cool, thanks
<juliank> pitti: This fixes issues with zero size files and "E: Unpatched file  doesn't exist (anymore)!" during update runs
<ginggs> doko: hey! sorry, that really fixes the glibc issue, but now there's a new boost issue
<doko> Mirv, failed again
<sil2100> doko: sure
<barnes> anyone going to rebuild the nagios-nrpe packages to enable setting dont_blame_nrpe=1 in nrpe.conf
<barnes> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=756479
<ubottu> Debian bug 756479 in nagios-nrpe-server "nagios-nrpe-server: Ignores dont_blame_nrpe=1" [Important,Open]
<barnes> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nagios-nrpe/+bug/1555258
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1555258 in nagios-nrpe (Ubuntu) "Request contained command arguments" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<barnes> i assume that this is going to be a problem for some of those who are going to upgrade to 16.04
<infinity> seb128: By "SRU to xenial", did you mean "SRU to trusty"?
<seb128> infinity, both is useful I guess?
<infinity> seb128: Or just trusty.
<infinity> seb128: Because it was fixed in utopic.
<seb128> oh ok
<seb128> better then!
<infinity> A bit shocked that we get that far before having upgraded dpkg too. :/
<infinity> I wonder if u-r-u can be mangled to force dpkg to upgrade early.
<cyphermox> infinity: I think we already have some stuff to tweak the order of upgrades a bit
<cyphermox> despite the name, I think that's what the PostUpgrade{Install, etc.} option does :)
<infinity> I wouldn't think so.
<infinity> Oh, maybe.
<infinity> Should be PostUpdate
<infinity> I feel like dpkg and apt should almost always be in that list.
<cyphermox> don't they already have logic to put themselves first when you run dist-upgrade?
<infinity> They do, but this is python-apt, which is special.
<cyphermox> ahh
<infinity> And never quite the same as apt itself.
<cyphermox> yeah
<infinity> Irritatingly.
<cyphermox> well, it's worth testing just putting them in the list and rolling a hacked up u-r-u in a PPA or something
<infinity> cyphermox: Actually, apt too will probably perturb the upgrade order a bit too much, but just dpkg should be fine.
<infinity> cyphermox: That said, uru also forces a dist-upgrade to latest trusty before upgrading, right?  So an SRU is also a good belt-and-bracers approach.
<infinity> mdeslaur: Any qualms about me SRUing https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/1574285 through the security PPA (and putting it in both pockets) for the benefit of people upgrading from security-only setups?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574285 in libreoffice (Ubuntu Yakkety) "dpkg-maintscript-helper: prepare_dir_to_symlink can never succeed" [High,Confirmed]
<infinity> mdeslaur: There's currently no dpkg delta between updates and security, and the fix is trivial and obvious: http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/dpkg/dpkg.git/diff/?id=ca5c108
<mdeslaur> infinity: no qualms at all, go ahead
<infinity> mdeslaur: Roger.
<bdmurray> pitti: with bug 1560797 we could make the release upgrader depend on the fixed version of apt, does that seem like a good idea?
<ubottu> bug 1560797 in apt (Ubuntu Wily) "apt does not configure Pre-Depends: before depending package" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1560797
<infinity> bdmurray: Doesn't the release upgrader force a dist-upgrade of $current_series before running the upgrade?
<infinity> bdmurray: Or am I imagining a behaviour that was never there?
<bdmurray> infinity: It does in most situations
<bdmurray> infinity: check-new-release-gtk doesn't and I think that's what notifies most people
<infinity> bdmurray: Oh.  That seems like an odd gap.
<infinity> bdmurray: Well, if the workaround is to make it depend on things, then we'll also want it to depend on dpkg (>= 1.17.5ubuntu5.6), once I SRU that.
<infinity> Which is incoming shortly, after I coffe myself awake.
<bdmurray> infinity: yeah, the update notifier release notification calls check-new-release-gtk
<doko> infinity, do you have a glibc update in the queue? else I would just to a no-change upload to pick up pie
<infinity> doko: A no-change upload might not work.  I'll do a test build and upload in a bit.
<doko> ta
<infinity> doko: Though, said upload might be forcing pie off everywhere, so it would effectively be a no-op.
<infinity> (I already force it off on s390)
<doko> hmm, ok. sbeattie just mentioned that we should upload that one
<infinity> I'll get it sorted.  Enabling it might require me to do some upstream work to sort out a few things.
<doko> sbeattie, check ftbfs at least on i386: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/check/0.10.0-3build1
<sbeattie> doko: that's strange, looking.
<rlaager> Which package (in Launchpad) should text-mode installer bugs be assigned to?
<Unit193> rlaager: Perhaps you are talking about the 'alternate installer' or server installer?  If so, debian-installer.
<rlaager> Unit193: I am. debian-installer is what I expected. I couldn't find that package. I'll try again.
<Unit193> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bugs/
<rbasak> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> cyphermox, infinity, Laney, micahg, xnox, bdmurray, stgraber: DMB ping
<rbasak> Oooh, it works.
<rbasak> Maybe out of date though?
<stgraber> clearly out of date :)
<Unit193> https://launchpad.net/~developer-membership-board/+members
<rbasak> sil2100: ping
<Unit193> rbasak: Fixed.
<rbasak> Unit193: thanks :)
<sil2100> rbasak: pong :)
<showaz> Hi guys, why is everything so horrible https://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-security/cve/universe.html?
<pitti> bdmurray: if that doesn't need an SRU by itself, sure; I take it you don't just mean adding a plain Depends:, as then users would first have to install *that*, but instead doing that in the downloaded tarball?
<pitti> bdmurray: it could also be that a lot of these duplicates are from plain apt-get dist-upgrades, or not?
<sarnold> hey showaz; a few reasons: (a) once a package is vulnerable to something, it's hard for it to get off the list -- we never revisit open universe cves to determine which ones might have been closed with newer releases
<sarnold> showaz: (b) there's just not that many people tending to universe packages; there's a handful of people who tend to their handful of favorites, but by and large universe is often overlooked
<showaz> sarnold: fuzzing packages?
<sarnold> showaz: I meant more, providing debdiffs for sponsoring
<showaz> Yes actually it is good that popular packages not affected vulnerable
<showaz> hmm.. libjpeg9 instead of turbo-jpeg
<sarnold> flexiondotorg: congratulations :)
<flexiondotorg> sarnold, Thanks :-)
<doko> pitti, please have a look at the apport, crash and fpc autopkg test failures triggered by the no-change upload of binutils
<ginggs> doko, pitti: iirc the armhf and i386 issues with fpc were fixed in fpc 3.0.0+dfsg-4 which never migrated because of the ftbfs on powerpc due to glibc  (LP: #1562480_
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1562480 in glibc (Ubuntu) "fp-compiler not installable on powerpc since glibc 2.23" [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1562480
<bdmurray> pitti: It's a special ubuntu-release-upgrader depends http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-release-upgrader/trunk/view/head:/DistUpgrade/README#L37 the upgrade won't proceed if it is not met.
<AlbertA> pitti: the s390x tests here: https://requests.ci-train.ubuntu.com/static/britney/xenial/landing-019/excuses.html
<AlbertA> don't seem to complete
<AlbertA> any ideas?
<Umeaboy> Hi!
<Umeaboy> I don't mean to be rude in any way, but I think I found a sentance that's written in the wrong way in a po file. I'd like to check if I'm correct in my judgement.
<Umeaboy> Could not create SSL connection through proxy server: %s
<Umeaboy> Shouldn't that instead be written like this: Could not establish a SSL connection through the proxy server: %s
<Umeaboy> ?
<slangasek> Umeaboy: why do you think it's wrong? it looks reasonable to me
<Umeaboy> You don't create a connection to SSL. You use SSL to encrypt the connection.
<Umeaboy> Right?
<Umeaboy> I could be wrong thou.
<Umeaboy> In that case I'm sorry.
<slangasek> it would not be "a SSL connection", fwiw, it would be "an SSL connection"; the rules for a/an follow pronunciation not spelling
<Umeaboy> I wasn't talking about spelling error either.
<Umeaboy> I'm talking about HOW the sentance is formed.
<slangasek> Umeaboy: as a native speaker, I don't have a problem with what's written there.  "create SSL connection" doesn't mean "create a connection to SSL", SSL is an adjective that modifies "connection"
<Umeaboy> I agree, I'm not an English native speaker so I don't keep track of all the rules, but......
<Umeaboy> I was just saying.
<Umeaboy> OK, in that case I'm sorry.
<doko> crap, pitti invalidated icu, giving back s390x autopkg tests :-/
<slangasek> Umeaboy: no problem, thanks for asking
<slangasek> doko: invalidated because tests that were ignored as always-failed have been reset to 'in progress'?  We can override that
<doko> slangasek, well, let's see if these succeed. but I'm fine to override these
<tyhicks> infinity: hi - I need to sponsor a small grub2 upload to yakkety which causes it to build with --no-pie
<slangasek> doko: ideally an in-progress run of an always-failed test would also not block us.  OTOH, some of these are tests that have passed before on s390x (evolution-data-server), so how would this have been a candidate before pitti gave them back?
<tyhicks> infinity: does a corresponding grub2-signed update need to happen at the same time?
<Umeaboy> How long time til 16.04 is released as a NON LTS version?
<slangasek> tyhicks: yes
<tyhicks> slangasek: thanks - I couldn't remember if that was required for the dev release or not
<tyhicks> slangasek: do you know if we have that process documented anywhere?
<slangasek> tyhicks: so to be clear, a grub2 upload to devel will stick in -proposed until grub2-signed upload also happens.  So it doesn't /have/ to happen "at the same time", but
<doko> slangasek, enouclue. maybe he ignored these while s390x autopkg test were broken or builds not available?
<slangasek> tyhicks: process> probably not, except if the security team themselves have documentation for it; it's one of those packages that if you don't know already, you probably shouldn't be touching without talking to somebody (which you've now done ;)
<tyhicks> agreed :)
<infinity> tyhicks: The process is "update the build-deps and upload the source".  There's prior art in pretty much every previous upload.
<infinity> tyhicks: But if you copy grub2 over, I can do -signed.
<infinity> tyhicks: I believe the security team process says "ask someone like Adam for help with this". :P
<tyhicks> infinity: I think I can handle both of them - the previous grub2-signed uploads look very straight forward but I didn't want to miss any behind the scenes steps
<infinity> tyhicks: Which should probably be "ask an AA who knows how the package works".
<tyhicks> (sounds like there aren't any)
<infinity> tyhicks: There are AA steps when you copy out of a PPA.
<tyhicks> "IMPORTANT: also needs grub2-signed updates, and special publishing procedure - talk to infinity" :)
<infinity> tyhicks: But the big thing to know is that even if your PPA can build UEFI signed bits (not sure if yours does), you should *never* copy -signed *binaries* from a PPA to the archive.
<infinity> tyhicks: grub2 binaries are fine, but -signed should be a sourceful upload/copy to the archive.
<slangasek> it should? whyzzat?
<infinity> slangasek: Because if you have a PPA with a UEFI signing key and upload grub2-singed to your PPA, the grub2-signed binaries are now signed by your PPA key, not the archive ket.
<infinity> s/ket/key/
<tyhicks> infinity: ack - I'm not copying out of a ppa so I should be fine
<tyhicks> (we only use the security PPA for security updates to stable releases)
<slangasek> infinity: oh. does launchpad generate new uefi-signed artifacts on copy to the different archive?
<infinity> slangasek: Yeah.  It signs the bits as it publishes the tarball.
<slangasek> ok
<tyhicks> good stuff to know - thanks
<TJ-> whilst your on it, does the -signed build now include the crypto modules so SecureBoot can boot with a LUKS/dm-encrypt protected /boot/ file system?
<cyphermox> TJ-: IIRC not necessarily all of them
<cyphermox> there was a bug about this, it needs a change in grub
<slangasek> doko: yeah, so I think s390x was being ignored architecture-wide due to some problems with the infrastructure before, and pitti probably turned it back on now that the tests are running again
<cyphermox> TJ-: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1565950
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1565950 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "Grub 2 fails to boot a kernel on a luks encrypted volume with Secure Boot enabled" [Medium,Confirmed]
<rlaager> So if GRUB updates are being pushed to yakkety, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub2/+bug/1527727/comments/31 should be ready to go. I'd love to see that in yakkety so I can do the formal test and propose it an SRU for xenial.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1527727 in grub2 (Ubuntu) "grub-probe for zfs assumes all devices prefix with /dev, ignoring /dev/disk/..." [Medium,In progress]
<TJ-> cyphermox: thanks; I couldn't find that earlier, but I've been hacking on grub for quite a time now and wondered if that were fixed... now using a UEFI SecureBoot PC as my prime dev PC and was hit by it last week
<TJ-> cyphermox: currently I'm working on adding key-file and u2f/yubikey support to cryptodisk
<AlbertA> doko: not sure who else I can ask, but would have an idea of why the s390x tests still say they are in progress here: https://requests.ci-train.ubuntu.com/static/britney/xenial/landing-019/excuses.html
<AlbertA> the queue seems empty
<cyphermox> TJ-: as long as you know that I'm not going to include patches in grub that haven't been blessed by upstream developers; I wouldn't mind u2f/yubikey for my crypto though
<cyphermox> for now I'll concentrate of pushing the changes that haven't already been, to Debian
<cyphermox> wow, I can't proper english today
<TJ-> cyphermox: yeah, it's work for upstream
<cyphermox> ok
<xnox> pitti, do autopkgtest builders think they can access non-split mirrors?
<xnox> Failed to fetch http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/trusty/main/binary-armhf/Packages  404  Not Found
<xnox> in e.g. binutils armhf test, or is this a test failure/bug?
<ogra_> xnox, looks like a wrong mirror url to me
<ogra_> (ports ... )
<dax> What's the plan with fglrx and xenial? Last we heard it wasn't gonna be a thing, but I'm hearing rumors about adding it to 16.04.1?
<xnox> dax, currently AMD does not provide binaries that are compatible with xenial's X.
<xnox> so there is nothing we can ship.
<gQuigs> dax: I think the rumor was about the 14.04 + 16.04HWE that we'd have to figure something out
<infinity> xnox: Where are you seeing that?
<xnox> infinity, in the snippet of the autopkg test log that was just on http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.shtml for binutils armhf
<xnox> the test is for yakkety, and the error is totally for failing to fetch trusty armhf from archive.ubuntu.com
<infinity> xnox: Might need to see more context than that to see what it's really doing.
<infinity> xnox: But binutils looks green across the board to me, so...
<ogra_> why would anything try to fetch armhf from archive.u.c ?
<infinity> ogra_: Because someone asked it to. :P
<ogra_> heh
<infinity> "Why do 404s happen, Daddy?"
<xnox> infinity, because people change urls =)
<dax> xnox: yep, which is why the last paragraph update of http://news.softpedia.com/news/canonical-recommends-open-source-amdgpu-and-radeon-drivers-for-ubuntu-16-04-lts-501556.shtml confused me
<dax> Did AMD decide they are in fact going to update fglrx again, or is the reporting there missing a good deal of "maybe"
<xnox> dax, news agencies also reported that we released a day early, when we didn't....
<dax> "Update: We've been informed by Oliver Grawert from Canonical that the proprietary AMD Catalyst (fglrx) driver has been temporarily removed the Ubuntu 16.04 LTS repositories, as it is not yet ported to X.Org Server 1.8. It will be added again as part of the first point release, Ubuntu 16.04.1 LTS."
<dax> heh
<ogra_> heh
<dax> so they misinterpreted maybe?
<xnox> dax, quotes taken out of context, from somebody who doesn't do anything at all with X or amd
<ogra_> yes, definitely
<xnox> =)
<ogra_> <- Oliver Grawert
<dax> oh, right, lol
<dax> I knew that, I just forgot :)
<dax> xnox: thank you
<ogra_> what i heard is that amd said they would likely offer some hybrid thing based on amdgpu but with binary bits added
<ogra_> no idea if thats real or just rumours though ... and if it exists, when it would be ready
<TJ-> any udev experts that can confirm that using PROGRAM="..." to set $result in the same rule-statement as RUN="... $result" will fail if other rules execute in parallel processes that also set $result? I've a rule that appears to be getting result set to the output of another statement in a different rules file
<TJ-> it seems it does, you have to capture the value with PROGRAM="...", ENV{MY_VAR}="$result" and in the later RUN="... %E{MY_VAR}" to avoid the potential race with multiple rules setting $result
<mwhudson> when will yakkety open for uploads (ish)?
<mwhudson> not been a developer for this part of the cycle yet :-)
<teward> mwhudson: it will open when it opens lol
<teward> (have patience)
<mwhudson> teward: heh, just like the release then
<teward> :P
<slangasek> mwhudson: I think the current plan is to open once icu lands in xenial, so that the libpng16 library transition doesn't get entangled with further uploads
<slangasek> and icu is currently waiting for s390x autopkgtest runners to drain their queue
<slangasek> there's also an ocaml question I don't have the full context on
<slangasek> anyway, #ubuntu-release scrollback addresses most of this ;)
<Unit193> Ah cool, waiting to upload something too.
<slangasek> no need to wait before uploading
<slangasek> there's an unapproved queue for that
<Unit193> Oh, OK.  Thought closed meant don't upload. :D
<mwhudson> ah right
<sarnold> bdmurray: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-5.7/+bug/1574458
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574458 in mysql-5.7 (Ubuntu) "Logs.var.log.mysql.error.log.txt contains usernames and passwords" [Undecided,New]
 * bdmurray sighs
<sarnold> bdmurray: fwiw he also filed 1574450 which I can no longer access; he probably set it to private once he saw the logs
<bdmurray> sarnold: I could automate making them all private fwiw
<sarnold> bdmurray: \o/ until the apport hooks are fixed that sounds ideal
<sarnold> bdmurray: are the apport hooks something you'd fiddle with or is that something a mysql packager needs to tackle?
<bdmurray> sarnold: It should be easy fix the hooks although I haven't looked.
<bdmurray> sarnold: it looks like it tries to replace the password at least
<sarnold> bdmurray: from the config file, perhaps; granted, if the password winds up in the logs, that's probably one for oracle..
<bdmurray> sarnold: have you verified that this happens at all?
<sarnold> bdmurray: no
<sarnold> bdmurray: hey, here's a log from ~last week https://launchpadlibrarian.net/254421818/Logs.var.log.mysql.error.log.txt
<bdmurray> sarnold: and I don't see anything but I just briefly scanned it
<sarnold> bdmurray: https://launchpadlibrarian.net/255183707/Logs.var.log.mysql.error.log.txt  has "Starting mysqld daemon with databases from /media/datadrive/data/mysql" -- that may come close..
#ubuntu-devel 2016-04-26
<mwhudson> oh fun https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/golang-1.6/+bug/1574916
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574916 in golang-1.6 (Ubuntu) "go test -race os/exec fails on yakkety" [Undecided,New]
<mwhudson> is there someway i can temporarily crowbar the pie default off?
<slangasek> mwhudson: e.g. export DEB_CFLAGS_MAINT_APPEND=-fno-pie ?
<mwhudson> slangasek: not in a package build, but i think i see where to stick that in
<mwhudson> nope, doesn't help
<slangasek> hmm. is it spelled -no-pie?
<slangasek> (manpage suggests it may be, and I don't remember)
<mwhudson> ah yes
<mwhudson> this is for the linker, not the compiler
<mwhudson> go test -race -ldflags='-linkmode=external -v -extldflags=-no-pie' -run='^$' os/exec -> ok
<mwhudson> with -fno-pie or with no extldflags, boom
<mwhudson> slangasek: while i'm talking to you about horrible things, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/docker.io/+bug/1574904
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574904 in docker.io (Ubuntu) "Docker compiled with wrong version of Go" [Undecided,New]
<slangasek> wut
<mwhudson> yes, wut
<slangasek> mwhudson: ohhh you've already responded to the bug; missed opportunity to say "haven't you ever used Go before?  golang 1.6 is the only go, get with the program"
<slangasek> mwhudson: also, IIRC accommodating this request would mean regressing architecture support
<mwhudson> slangasek: somehow i doubt that would work with docker upstream
<mwhudson> slangasek: oh yes, that's a good point
<sarnold> .. and undoing whatever security fixes may exist in only newer branches
<mwhudson> sarnold: go 1.5 has security support until 1.7 is released, fwiw
<sarnold> mwhudson: ah, good, that's six weeks longer than I expected :)
<sarnold> (sorry, sorry...)
<mwhudson> :-)
<mwhudson> what does the linker, specifically, do differently when you pass -pie vs -no-pie?
<infinity> mwhudson: Hahahahahahaha (re: docker vs go)
<mwhudson> infinity: pretty much
<infinity> mwhudson: Is there no way to detect compiler version and do sane things regardless?
<mwhudson> infinity: not sure what you mean, it's a standard library change that's causing the problem here
<mwhudson> infinity: 1.6 validates host: properly, 1.5 didn't
<mwhudson> it must be possible to hack things so that it doesn't validate the header properly again but it might not be simple
<infinity> mwhudson: Oh, right, because HTTP validation belongs in a standard library.  Check.
 * infinity keeps forgetting that Go can't decide if it's C or PHP.
<mwhudson> in 2016? yes, i'd say it does
<mwhudson> the joke is more on docker here, aiui
<infinity> mwhudson: Wow, that ticket is a mess.
<infinity> mwhudson: Yes, joke's on docker, but I think they've also neetly proven why the model is crap.
<infinity> "I ship an ancient docker in my images so it works with all docker daemons on all hosts, and am thus stuck with every security bug ever, and you have to support every broken behaviour ever."
<infinity> Uh huh.
<infinity> Dear docker: flag day.
<mwhudson> oh yeah
<infinity> mwhudson: Not joking here, but perhaps it's time to suggest to docker upstream that this is a perfect opportunity to audit their API, clean up any messes, release a 2.0 that's intentionally backward-incompatible, and migrate the world.
<infinity> mwhudson: And, for bonus points, version their APIs going forward, so clients aren't connecting blind to they-don't-know-what.
<infinity> All seems a bit ironic, given that the docker crowd seems to intersect very broadly with version fetishists.
<infinity> And, yet, run ancient versions because they have to.
<infinity> mwhudson: Rather than vendoring the entire module/object/whatever, is there no elegant way in go to just undef on symbol and overload the problematic function with a local copy?
<infinity> s/on symbol/one symbol/
<mwhudson> no
<infinity> Irksome.
<mwhudson> yeah
<mwhudson> if we had dynamic linking... (but maybe not even then, would depend on $details i suspect)
<infinity> mwhudson: Third option, hack go1.6 for "if project == docker { skip host validation }" ... If there's a way to determine that.
<infinity> (Ew)
<mwhudson> hm my first hack didn't work
 * mwhudson afk for a bit
<cpaelzer> good morning
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> doko: yes, I'm going through all regressions on excuses now
<RAOF> pitti: Enjoy your shiny new colord.
<pitti> slangasek: running (always failed) already does not block a package
<pitti> slangasek: I think what doko meant is that the non-failling ones got added too; I had to temporarily disable s390x testing due to getting segfaults in lxc
<pitti> xnox: armhf containers have ports.u.c. apt sources; http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/b/binutils/yakkety/armhf/ is fine, where did you see this?
<mwhudson> infinity: i came up with something even more evil https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/docker.io/+bug/1574904/comments/3
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574904 in docker.io (Ubuntu) "Docker compiled with wrong version of Go" [Undecided,New]
<zyga> hey mwhudson :)
<mwhudson> zyga: hi
<zyga> long time no see, how are you doing?
<mwhudson> good, doing lots of this crazy packaging stuff now :)
<zyga> packaging? are you still working on go toolchain?
<mwhudson> the go toolchain stuff is mostly done, now we need to start using it in ubuntu
<pitti> tjaalton: please upload the fix for bug 1562033 to yakkety
<ubottu> bug 1562033 in xinit (Ubuntu Yakkety) "package xinit 1.3.4-3 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1562033
<tjaalton> indeed
<tjaalton> done
<pitti> tjaalton: cheers
<caribou> Anything changed with NetworkManager and/or lxd ? containers created yesterday no longer start
<apw> caribou, yakkety or xenial ?
<caribou> apw: yakkety but looks like it is a dnsmasq problem
<apw> with the freeze on i would not expect any of those to have changed as yet
<caribou> apw: some dnsmasq process was blocking the correct start of lxd-bridge
<apw> nasty
<caribou> my syslog has been filled with dnsmasq insults for a while
<caribou> I'll soon re-install from scratch anyway
<apw> you have metalic cahoonas :)
<Mirv> xnox: sorry, no time today either for looking at the png issue. with a quick glance to code.qt.io I don't see png related changes in the tests at least.
<Mirv> (qtbase/tests/auto/gui/image/qimagereader)
<Mirv> it seems doko disabled the tests in yakkety though for now
<xnox> pitti, it was in the log that i saw during running on the autopkgtest debci instance =/
<xnox> can't find relevant things in the logs.
<doko> Mirv, yes, I did, and it now migrated
<abhinav--> Sorry for the off topic question, but, how are the man pages at manpages.ubuntu.com generated?
<mgedmin> the footer links to https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-manpage-repository, which has the scripts
<abhinav--> mgedmin, awesome, thanks! :)
<nebuchadnezzar> hello, I'm looking for the chan to speak about https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization, it looks like configuring gfxboot is not working the same way on 16.04 than 14.04, I tried to rebuild the ISO with âecho fr > isolinux/langâ to preselect the language without success
<mitya57> Hi, can someone please reject metacity from yekkety-proposed? I uploaded wrong versionâ¦
<Laney> mitya57: *flush*
<mitya57> Thanks Laney
<seb128> is bug #1575126 a dpkg issue?
<ubottu> bug 1575126 in update-manager (Ubuntu) "Upgrade from Wily to Xenial failed : "Could not install gconf2"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1575126
<seb128> "dpkg: ../../src/packages.c:245: process_queue: Assertion `dependtry <= 4' failed."
<seb128> seems like bug 1551623
<ubottu> bug 1551623 in gconf (Ubuntu) "package gconf2 3.2.6-3ubuntu6 failed to install/upgrade: dependency problems - leaving triggers unprocessed" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1551623
<yofel> As a Kubuntu Dev, is there any special knowledge I should have if I intend to apply for core-dev?
<yofel> I've got 5 years of packaging experience, I know the release process, the package sets, seeds, what MIRs are, how britney works.. anything else I should read up on? (Other than doing the usual application paperwork)
<doko> sinzui, fyi, juju-mongodb fails to build in yakkety with new boost
<sinzui> :/
<sinzui> thank you doko
<sinzui> doko: juju-mongodb or juju-mongodb2.6?
 * sinzui hopes to drop packages
<doko> sinzui, both
<sinzui> oh, thank is more dispapointing
<sinzui> s/thank/that/
<seb128> bdmurray, hey, do you know if there are issues with the changelog server again? http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/binary/g/gnome-calendar/3.20.1-1ubuntu1 is missing (unsure if the only one, just happened to hit that one while testing a gnome-software sru candidate)
<bdmurray> seb128: I don't know but will try and have a look
<seb128> bdmurray, thanks
<xnox> i fail at policykit and udisks2
<infinity> mwhudson: That's definitely more evil.
* infinity changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Xenial (16.04) Released! | Archive: open | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of precise-xenial | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://bit.ly/lv8soi | Patch Pilots:
<slangasek> infinity, kees, mdeslaur, stgraber: TB meeting, you gluttons for punishment
<mdeslaur> \o
<pitti> bdmurray: do we merely need to sru-release bug 1560797 as usual, or is there special magic for the release upgrader?
<ubottu> bug 1560797 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "apt does not configure Pre-Depends: before depending package" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1560797
<pitti> bdmurray: I'm inclined to release this ASAP, given how much breakage this causes
<bdmurray> pitti: No, we just need to release it. slangasek might really want to test his greek bug though.
<slangasek> the SRU team might want to not release it before it's been verified, yes ;)
<pitti> bdmurray: right, just wanted to know in general, as I just saw your v-done (thanks!)
<jamespage> doko, apologies - I have have inadvertenly backed out your changes to ceph for the boost transition
<jamespage> doko, I'll ressurect them with my next upload...
<xnox> jamespage, hm?!
<xnox> jamespage, i'm sure you didn't =) it was no change rebuild, and we need new ceph, as old ceph doesn't build with new boost =) only new ceph does
<jamespage> xnox, which is wierd as that is a RC-> release update only...
<jamespage> xnox, I figured I backed out some sort of dependency change for the build
<jamespage> but if not then \o/
<xnox> jamespage, nah, it was no change rebuild =) so only a pointless changelog entry, from a build that fails to build everywhere, and never migrated ;-)
<xnox> jamespage, so just ignore it.
<xnox> jamespage, well FTBFS bug-fixes are kosher
<xnox> and it had impact too..... e.g. classes were not unwound fully and things were not called at cleanup.
<xnox> or some such
<xnox> c++ is foreign to me
<xnox> i mean i am patching a template over here, for a template not to explode over there, when used in this special way in a random package....
<lamont> bdmurray: I just have to say "oops" on that bind9 bug
<lamont> bdmurray: I should have -9 uploaded tonight, which fixes it by removing the bad piece of a patch from when I quilted it all.
<bdmurray> lamont: okay, great
<lamont> fwiw, the assertion failure is named catching a memory leak at shutdown.  Said leak would be bcause of the bad patch which deleted a dst_lib_destroy() call from the shutdown path.
<lamont> so it literally is non-affecting in operation, other than (1) the stupid error, and (2) potentially masking something that could be an operational error (e.g. memory leak leading to ENOMEM)
<lamont> bdmurray: in fact, -9 is uplaoding to debian at this time
<c_korn> when a java app crashes with openjdk-9 but runs with openjdk-8. how can I package that app and be sure it is started with openjdk-8 ?
<doko> jamespage, hmm, was this more than a no-change upload?
<jamespage> doko, it was
<jamespage> doko, RC->release of ceph Jewel
<jamespage> the diff was not bug...
<lamont> bdmurray: http://paste.ubuntu.com/16071629/ to my shame
<jamespage> big rather...
<lamont> bdmurray: tbf, lines 10 and 17-65 are not properly needed for the xenial fix
<infinity> 17:04 < xnox> c++ is foreign to me
<infinity> xnox: ^-- That's what I like to hear from the boost maintainer.
<sarnold> hehehe
<sarnold> in all fairness there's like a dozen people on the planet who could grok c++ well enough to Maintain Boost, and xnox doesn't have anywhere near enough gray hair. yet.
<xnox> sarnold, i maintain boost and btrfs, only to tell people "don't use it"
<infinity> sarnold: All the bits of boost I understand are the bits that have been replaced by newer versions of the C++ standard but people are too lazy to switch.
<infinity> sarnold: All the OTHER bits should be deleted.
<sarnold> infinity: hahaha
<sarnold> xnox: that's a dangerous road to start down..
<infinity> (I admit that there are vendors who *need* to build on ancient/crap platforms, like MySQL, and boost is at least better than what they used to do, which was reinvent C++ in libmysqld...)
<infinity> But for most projects, ick.  Rid thyself of boost.  Free your code.
<xnox> they still reinvent c++ in libmysqld..... they subclass templates.
<xnox> Â¯\_(ã)_/Â¯
 * xnox bets it has a different term, and it's not "subclass"
<infinity> xnox: Well, at least it *is* C++.
<xnox> yeah, could be worse c preprocessor + assembly =) glibc all the way
<infinity> xnox: Zend rewrote templating in C because they didn't like C++ (again, probably because it predates cross-platform standards that didn't suck)
<xnox> ouch
<infinity> xnox: Also, don't talk smack about glibc or I'll make you use bionic.
<infinity> The C library that stubs out functions to return true, because that's totally the best way to spell ENOSUPP.
<xnox> infinity, i had to build bionic toolchain with gcc, and emulator...... i hate bionic
<mwhudson> how about musl
<mwhudson> everyone loves musl
<Unit193> barry: BTW, Debian re-introduced bzr-fastimport, so if that gets merged might be handy to get the fixes I compiled in.
#ubuntu-devel 2016-04-27
<doko> apw, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/nvidia-graphics-drivers-352/+bug/1575451
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1575451 in nvidia-graphics-drivers-361 (Ubuntu) "PIE mode breaks building kernel modules" [Undecided,New]
<doko> Logan, not sure how UDD is involved, but people don't seem to care that a package actually lands in the release pocket (or they lack the time to get it there)
<Logan> maybe Launchpad should have a way to show all of your package uploads that are stuck in proposed
<pitti> Good morning
<sladen> morning pitti
<dholbach> good morning
<sladen> http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/results.pl?id=E_0b63afb3ebd5c7ca  kudos to slangasek infinity kees stgraber mdeslaur seb128
<bipul> ttp://paste.ubuntu.net/16075814/ I was trying to compile dash source package, but i am getting error messages. And i don't see any .deb file in parent directory,only i can see dash_0.5.7-4ubuntu1_i386.build
<dholbach> can somebody moderate my mail on the u-d-a list through?
<pitti> dholbach: sure, doing
 * dholbach hugs pitti 
 * pitti hugs dholbach back, wie gehts?
<dholbach> sehr gut, und dir? :)
<pitti> prima, danke! endlich kein Schnee mehr :)
<dholbach> :-)
<sladen> the weather was just *weird* the last 36 hours
<dholbach> pitti, typisches April-Wetter - Lisa war vor ein paar Tagen in Bayern und an einem Tag waren es 20Â°, sie hatte Sonnenbrand und zwei Tage spÃ¤ter standen sie mit dem Auto im SchneegestÃ¶ber
<pitti> sladen: yeah, I like snow in January, but not after two weeks of finest spring weather with everything blossoming in the garden
<sladen> dholbach: /me went ->Wiesloch (BW, summer's day) ->Rhineland-Pf (sleet, snow, sun, snow, sun, sleet, sun, snow) ->HD (rain, sun) ->Wuerzburg (found myself cycling in driving snow) and back at the office in HD there was 10cm of snow on somebody's car on an otherwise mild day
<darkxst> dholbach, I just replied to your UOS email, but may as well just ask here
<sladen> pitti: yeah, I like *proper* snow, when the air is dry
<darkxst> can we run a an ubuntu GNOME session but outside the proposed hours?
<dholbach> darkxst, I'll send an email to you and mhall119 about it
<dholbach> I don't know
<dholbach> sladen, nuts :)
<darkxst> dholbach, ok thanks, I obviously can't stay up all night on weeknights ;)
<dholbach> of course... and I know it's unfair to you :-(
<darkxst> dholbach, speaking of which I submitted a GUADEC talk today ;)
<darkxst> atleast in that case I will travel to their timezone ;)
<dholbach> nice :-)
<bipul> Hi anyone around?
<davmor2> bipul: lots
<bipul> Can anyone tell me ? why i am not able to create .deb file, from source package of dash.
<bipul> http://paste.ubuntu.net/16075814/
<sladen> bipul: how did you obtain the source?
<bipul> sladen, apt-get source dash
<bipul> I am able to create only dash_0.5.7-4ubuntu1_i386.build
<bipul> not .deb :(
<darkxst> pull-lp-source dash is safer!
<bipul> let me try.
<darkxst> you need ubuntu-dev-tools installed though
<darkxst> I'm out for dinner
<bipul> ok darkxst Thank you
<bipul> pull-lp-source: Warning: Distribution data outdated. Please check for an update for distro-info-data. See /usr/share/doc/distro-info-data/README.Debian for details.
<bipul> Or specify a distribution.
<bipul> :(
<sladen> bipul: have you done a   sudo apt-get build-dep dash  first too?
<bipul> sladen, is there anyway to get the source from bzr?
<bipul> sladen, yes i executed that command. sudo apt-get build-dep dash before performing pull-lp-source dash
<mwhudson> bipul: did you run sudo apt-get source?
<mwhudson> because you don't need sudo for that
<bipul> mwhudson, Yes that also i had run, and i got 3 files and 1 directory with starting name "dash"
<doko> apw, tyhicks: could one of you merge schroot?
<bipul> oh yes, mwhudson thank you
<doko> seb128, is the "don't merge" comment for vino still appropriate?
<seb128> doko, yes
<cpaelzer> pitti: first of all thanks for making me aware that DPDK needs an Y upload as well to let the SRU X upload progress to updates
<cpaelzer> pitti: since ubuntu7 was copied from xenial this doesn't need more than a "dch --release --distribution yakkety" before creating an upload right (no new tarball or other special things)
<cpaelzer> pitti: I made sure it sbuilds fine in Y, but wanted to check if there woudl be more needed
<pitti> cpaelzer: no, not really; the main point is that it builds with the Y toolchain and works with that
<pitti> cpaelzer: we also have some library transitions already, so binary  copies might end up linking to the wrong (old) ones
<cpaelzer> pitti: ok, that the two Y sbuilds should have ensured I think
<cpaelzer> pitti: thanks
<cpaelzer> is there a way to also adt for Y locally before https://cloud-images.ubuntu.com/yakkety... exists?
<pitti> cpaelzer: lxd has yakkety images already
<pitti> cpaelzer: if you need QEMU: what I did was to copy the xenial VM to -yakkety, boot it, change apt sources and dist-upgrade
<cpaelzer> thats a nice experiment to do
<pitti> not that much experimental, it's a well-proven approach :)
<tsdgeos> seb128: do you know why there's no uptodate libflac8-dbgsym at http://ddebs.ubuntu.com/pool/main/f/flac/ ? it has 1.3.0 instead of 1.3.1 or do you know anyone that may know why?
<seb128> tsdgeos, ddebs are in launchpad now
<seb128> tsdgeos, like on https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/flac/1.3.1-4/+build/7763370
<seb128> you have debs and ddebs
<tsdgeos> seb128: you mean there's no repo i can use anymore?
<seb128> tsdgeos, the old server is only useful for things that didn't get rebuilt since those got moved to launchpad
<tsdgeos> seb128: still https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/flac/1.3.1-4/+build/7763370 doesn't have the dbgsym either
<seb128> it has?
<seb128> 3rd item
<seb128> in "built files"
<tsdgeos> seb128: that's not for libflac8
<tsdgeos> it's for libflac6++
<seb128> hum, indeed
<mwhudson> "libflac8 has no unstripped objects, ignoring" says the build log
<tsdgeos> weird, since nm /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libFLAC.so.8.3.0 gives me no symbols
<tsdgeos> so i guess they were stripped?
<seb128> tsdgeos, right, that's what the error says
<seb128> the binary was already stripped
<tsdgeos> ah you mean before trying to strip/create the dbgsym
<mwhudson> or compiled without -g maybe?
<seb128> yes
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: lxd already has yakkety images?  I thought they were meant to pull from cloud-images.u.c to produce theirs...
<seb128> tsdgeos, what mwhudson says, maybe no -g so the binary never had the symbols?
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: on images: (i. e. https://images.linuxcontainers.org/), not on ubuntu:
<mwhudson> Odd_Bloke: no ubuntu-daily:yakkety, but there is images:ubuntu/amd64/yakkety
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: we use images: in production, as these are much smaller and nicer than the cloud ones
<Odd_Bloke> Ah, OK, images:.
<Odd_Bloke> pitti: You know they aren't actually official Ubuntu images though, right? :p
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: I do, yes; but neither are the adt ones I construct for our nova runners :)
<Odd_Bloke> :)
<pitti> with the huge purge list
<tsdgeos> seb128: ok, i see
<pitti> Odd_Bloke: so we don't need to download LXD images three times the size and do http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/autopkgtest/autopkgtest.git/tree/setup-commands/setup-testbed#n183
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, whilst i understand lxd on cloud-images, it makes no sense in the lxd image...
<xnox> stgraber, ^
<xnox> i know it can do nested lxd, but i don't see why that should be a default.
<Odd_Bloke> xnox: The lxd images is a cloud images; there may be some things in there that don't make sense (e.g. open-vm-tools), but that's a compromise that's being made to avoid a (further) proliferation of images.
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, it's not a cloud image, because it's a separate tarball =)
<xnox> shipping useless blobs in a tarball, that may or may not be present in .img is well useless.
<Odd_Bloke> xnox: No, it isn't; lxd consumes the root .tar.xz and an additional metadata tarball.
<Odd_Bloke> The root .tar.xz _is_ the cloud image, minus kernel.
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, is it known for .tar.xz to be used in booted instances (e.g. virtual machines)?
<xnox> or bare metal?
<Odd_Bloke> xnox: I believe MAAS use it and install a kernel in it (because they want the generic kernel, not the virtual kernel).
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, smoser: that's a weird statement. Given that -virtual depends on -generic... it's the same kernel. The difference is the installation of -extra and firmware.
<Odd_Bloke> xnox: I may be mistaken.
<xnox> obviously kernel is not needed on the lxd images.
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, if we remove lxd from the tarball images.... they could probably superseed all of the ubuntu-core tarballs we generate and ship.
<xnox> infinity, what do you think ^ ?
<xnox> slangasek, ^
<Odd_Bloke> xnox: Image consolidation is a conversation we'll be having in Austin next week. :)
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, let me check if cloud images discriminate powerpc ;-)
<Odd_Bloke> xnox: Discriminate?
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, i see there are powerpc lxd/lxc tarballs in place, so all is good.
<xnox> i remember at some point lxd images were not generated for arches that don't have cloud-images or some such.
<Odd_Bloke> xnox: That's because the lxd images _are_ cloud images. :p
 * xnox rolls eyes
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, where is this austin discussion? can you invite me there too?
<Saviq> pitti, hey, does the adt-run output at the end of https://unity8-jenkins.ubuntu.com/job/test-ppa-autopkgtest/142/label=amd64,package=unity8,release=vivid+overlay,testname=qmluitests.sh/console make sense to you?
<Saviq> has there been a change recently in adt-run that could cause that?
<pitti> Saviq: not that I remember, but I'll look into that, thanks
<mwhudson> i have a small pile of packages i want to do something to, and i want to do it to depended-on packages before the depending packages
<mwhudson> is there tooling for this already? transitions must be a bit like this
<doko> chrisccoulson, there is a new firefox-esr package in yakkety. should that be blacklisted or built?
<chrisccoulson> doko, that should definitely be blacklisted
<doko> chrisccoulson, and thunderbird is in http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/nbs.html
<mapreri> i'm looking at the inkscape delta between ubuntu and debian.  i wonder, is there any way to avoid the delta on the translation things?  can't ubuntu's debhelper add it to it's sequencer or something instead?
<bdrung_work> pitti, hi. can you explain how you/we fixed https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=751636 in Ubuntu?
<ubottu> Debian bug 751636 in openssh-server "ssh sessions are not cleanly terminated on shutdown/restart with systemd" [Important,Open]
<Wulf> Hello
<Wulf> Is there any chance https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/msktutil/+bug/1568714 will get fixed in 16.04?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1568714 in msktutil (Ubuntu) "stack smashing detected ***: msktutil terminated for version 0.5.1+git8158aa2b-1" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<doko> chrisccoulson, done
<Wulf> Or could you link me a policy that described what will (not) be updated before the next release?
<cjwatson> Wulf: I haven't looked at the specific bug in question, but the policy doc is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
<pitti> Saviq: hm, this code hasn't changed in ages (since July 2014)
<pitti> Saviq: /dev/tty not being present in the job sounds a bit fishy; but what's more fishy is why a Jenkins job runs with --shell or --shell-on-failure (-s) in the first place -- that's never going to work
<pitti> Saviq: I committed http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/autopkgtest/autopkgtest.git/commit/?id=c13bab9fb to provide a nicer error; but you really should drop this --shell-fail
<pitti> Saviq: if it would actually work, it would block the job forever
<pitti> Saviq: another thing: you pass DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS=parallel=4 to adt-run, but that's not generally going to work for testbeds; pass adt-run --build-parallel=4 instead
<pitti> Saviq: it defaults to nproc, so maybe you don't even need to set this in the first place
<Wulf> cjwatson: thanks, will read through it
<Wulf> ``3.1 Check that the bug is fixed in the current development release, and that its bug task is "Fix Released".''  Is there such a "development release", is it "Yak"?
<Saviq> pitti, oh yeah, the --shell* was a debug thing, /me drops
<Wulf> It it correct that first someone needs to make a new package with the patch applied and upload it into yak?
<Saviq> pitti, sorry about the noise, /my fault completely
<pitti> Saviq: no worries, this was a nice cosmetic fix
<Odd_Bloke> Wulf: Yep, yakkety is the current development release.
<doko> apw, sbeattie: please address https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1574982
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574982 in ubuntu (Ubuntu) "Cannot use CONFIG_CC_STACKPROTECTOR_STRONG: -fstack-protector-strong not supported by compiler" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<Odd_Bloke> mvo: o/ I'm trying to puzzle out the default unattended upgrades behaviour for kernels in xenial, but can't quite work it out; will older kernel packages be cleared out of the system by default?
<apw> doko, yeah ... is that fallout from -fpie or has that just gone away ?
<doko> apw, looks like pie
<doko> so maybe needs fixing in dkms as well?
<Odd_Bloke> I second infinity's hunger-related complaint about that TLA. :p
<apw> doko, so turning pie off which we should be doing at least for now in the kernel
<apw> doko, i am expecting that dkms is using the kernel headers, speficially the Makefile from there to get that
<mvo> Odd_Bloke: hey, the details can be found here: http://paste.ubuntu.com/16077278/
<apw> doko, so if we fix the kernel we might fix that...
<apw> doko, oh damn, of course that kernel is in xenial and copied forward, so _fun_
<doko> apw, already told the security team not to binary-copy stuff from xenial ...
<apw> doko, right ... though for the kernel as we are about to turn of pie there ... prolly we can do so still
<apw> though i guess, if we have to, we cna upload it as +yakkety
<Odd_Bloke> mvo: Ah, handy; and is autoremove enabled by default in xenial, or would these rules only apply when running it manually?
<Odd_Bloke> mvo: (autoremove as part of unattended-upgrades, that is)
<mvo> Odd_Bloke: autoremove is enabled as part of unattended-upgrades, but it will only remove unneeded dependencies that became unneeded during that run. so it might be worthwhile to test if there are any unexpected side effects but it should work
 * mvo lunches
<Odd_Bloke> mvo: Cool, thanks!
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: I just sent also the current memory allocations - in general if the s390 resource allocations become an issue once you work with IS about it let me know to help sorting things out
<barry> Unit193: thanks.  sorry i couldn't ever get to it, but i'll look at it for yakkety
<smoser> xnox, ubuntu server is ubuntu server is ubuntu server.  Wherever we produce it it acts the same.  That does have some cost of inert things installed.  all images have ubuntu-server metapackage installed.  At this point the maas image is only one file different from the lxd image (and that one file can actually go away now).
<pitti> I know that this is a design decision, but it's really not the only one that makes sense IMHO
<pitti> a "pet server" is conceptually quite different from a "cattle instance" in terms of how much stuff/hw support/interactivity you need
<xnox> nested lxd support is a niche thing
<xnox> landscape monitoring per container doesn't make sense either
<pitti> and mdadm/lvm/iscsi/ppp/cryptsetup etc. don't work in lxc at all
<xnox> imho LXD image must slim
<pitti> but yeah, we've gone through this several times; we have https://images.linuxcontainers.org/ and they are nice
<pitti> I wish juju could use those too
<xnox> pitti, hm, juju does want to have lxc/lxd available to deploy thing to an instance, in a container.
<pitti> xnox: sure, but on the host, not in the juju instance
<pitti> also, apt-get install lxd :)
<xnox> pitti, nah, not on the host... in the target juju instance.
<pitti> xnox: it doesn't do nesting, no
<xnox> juju deploy mysql --to 24/lxc/3
<xnox> deploy into 3rd container on 24th machine
<xnox> pitti, https://jujucharms.com/docs/1.25/charms-deploying
<xnox> totally does
<xnox> and for that magic to work, you do need lxc on the juju instance
<pitti> xnox: well, that's really not the default mode
<pitti> and, as said, if juju wants/needs that, it should explicitly install lxd either way
<xnox> sure, maybe juju should learn to deploy subordinate "lxc" to the machine before sub-deploying containers?
<cjwatson> cpaelzer: Thanks, good to know.  We can probably also just rebalance things a little during the transition; having 28 really fast builders is obviously great fun and helped the bootstrap a lot, but it's a bit less vital now.
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: ok, just wanted to provide the vital data and a helping hand
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: IS really tries but s390 can be crazy stuff
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: balancing surely is a good approach in the transition
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: due to the SSI cluter we can balance nicely without "loosing" an active guest
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: but I understand your balancing suggestion as slowly going down from 28 to less builders
<cpaelzer> right?
<tyhicks> doko, apw: I can merge schroot because there's another patch that I need to add to it
<apw> tyhicks, works for me :)
<cjwatson> cpaelzer: right
<nebuchadnezzar> I finally found why my custom xenial ISO were not working as expected: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-cdimage/debian-cd/ubuntu/view/head:/tools/boot/xenial/boot-amd64#L644
<nebuchadnezzar> just put my stuff before that line and it's embedded in the bootlogo, and everything works
<cjwatson> cpaelzer: Do you know where our 328G total current in use comes from?  We have 28 builders with 8G each, which is 224G; 104G seems like an awful lot of overhead
<cjwatson> cpaelzer: I can't make the arithmetic come out to the value you quote
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: while I have no insight into the system I know that all foundation z/VM guests are on the same Hosts
<cjwatson> cpaelzer: I thought they were very specifically and deliberately on separate LPARs
<cjwatson> cpaelzer: indeed you list separate ones for Foundations, don't you?
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: the other LPARs are "forbidden", but nothing can escape the z/VM configuration
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: The Foundation guests get into the right (= not yours) VLAN by the VSWITCH config in the z/VM Host
<cjwatson> cpaelzer: well; so this seems to me like 104G which needs to be accounted for somehow and could perhaps be reclaimed for use in a transition to scalingstack
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: they can't do anything to leave theirs or reach your vlan
<cjwatson> cpaelzer: it certainly doesn't fit the memory allocations that you outlined
<cpaelzer> cjwatson: oh yes, it could very well be just oversized and could be shrinked in the progress of that transition
<cjwatson> cpaelzer: maybe S0LP1 and S0LP2 just have more memory allocated to them than they in fact need?
<cjwatson> right
<smoser> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cloud-init/+bug/1575572
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1575572 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "apache2 fails to start if installed via cloud config (on Xenial)" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<smoser> so that bug says that telling cloud-init to install apache2 results in apache2 not running.
<smoser> you can do that either with cloud-config or with just:
<smoser>  apt-get install -q -y apache2
<smoser> in a '#!'
<smoser> i think that is essentially because one systemd service is running (cloud-init) and so somehow the newly installed package doesn't get processed.
<xnox> the postinst should be doing daemon-reload and start apahce2
<xnox> can you extract and who the logs?
<xnox> of dpkg/apt?
<smoser> 'who' ?
<xnox> cjwatson, there are other non-lp builders z/vms running on lp lpars.
<xnox> cjwatson, but that's okish, as z/vms have network & disk segregation, as in no disks nor network is visible apart from the parts that are specific to a paricular z/vm
<xnox> smoser, no idea how that got typed, or what i was trying to say there =)
<smoser> xnox, well, i'll get you some data here. easily re-creatable in lxc
<xnox> smoser, well we need apt/dpkg output to see what it was doing
<smoser> xnox, http://paste.ubuntu.com/16081486/
<xnox> smoser, that does not look like apt/dpkg output =)
<xnox> ah this one http://paste.ubuntu.com/16081365/
<smoser> yeah, apt is happy.
<smoser> thinks the world is fine
 * davmor2 sees the number of wars breaking out across the globe and thinks smoser is lying ;)
<smoser> apt is happy though.
<smoser> ignorance is bliss
<cjwatson> xnox: tell the thread or this knowledge will get lost. :)
<xnox> cjwatson, i am confused
<xnox> smoser, yeah, so it should have run
<xnox> update-rc.d apache2 defaults >/dev/null
<cjwatson> xnox: it's still not accurate to account this memory use to LP, though, even if it's piggybacking on our LPARs
<xnox> invoke-rc.d apache2 start || true
<xnox> cjwatson, =)))))
<smoser> xnox, where are you looking ?
<xnox> smoser, i wonder if you can inject in cloud-init to run things without redirection to dev/null
<xnox> e.g.
<xnox> update-rc.d apache2 defaults
<xnox> invoke-rc.d apache2 start
<xnox> and check the logs as to what happens.
<xnox> or maybe even run those two commands just now
<xnox> smoser, i'm looking in /var/lib/dpkg/info/apache2.postinst
<xnox> also i find it weird that we ship _both_ init script for apache2, /lib/systemd/system/apache2.service.d/apache2-systemd.conf systemd sub-snippet
<xnox> but no systemd unit
<xnox> smoser, what does $ grep apache /etc/init.d/.depend.start have?
<smoser> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16081721/
<pitti> mvo, juliank: I just discovered that in some cases apt-cache policy pkg gives me information about several packages, none of which is pkg: http://paste.ubuntu.com/16083336/
<pitti> am I doing anything wrong there? can I influence this somehow?
<pitti> apt-cache policy is documented to take package names, not regexps
<pitti> ah, if there's an exact match it uses that, but if the package does not exist it silently switches to regexp mode
<slangasek> sladen: thanks for standing!
<sladen> slangasek: still don't know who nominated me...
<bdmurray> tyhicks: Is there somebody who could look at the last comment in bug 1471645?
<ubottu> bug 1471645 in apparmor (Ubuntu) "[trusty] [regression] chromium-browser crashed with SIGABRT in base::debug::BreakDebugger()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1471645
<infinity> pitti: Huh.  My apt-cache doesn't switch to regex mode...
<tyhicks> bdmurray: we'll likely be working on underlying AppArmor changes to fix the user namespace issues causing the need for 'capability sys_admin,'
<tyhicks> bdmurray: that's obviously something that you don't want your browser to have
<nemo> I'm in a bit of a fun situation w/ a 64 bit ubuntu... Up until the last vmware server update I was successfully using the 64 bit 4.5 view client with a manually maintained opensc (to fix the exports from upstream that haven't made it into ubuntu yet)
<nemo> Last update of server broke communication w/ client so have to switch to 5.0 - and here's the odd thing.
<nemo> Ubuntu only offers vmware-view-client 5.0 in 32 bit.  That implies some upstream non open source blob
<nemo> Fine.  No problem, let me see if I can fix it.. But, Ubuntu also does not offer :i386 versions of opensc/pcscd which would be needed to actually use the client against a server using smartcards
<nemo> I was hoping #ubuntu-devel might be able to tell me if manually figuring out how to package :i386 versions of those libs is an insane thing for me to embark on or not
<nemo> (this is from someone who has an itsy bitsy passing familiarity w/ deb packaging w/ some help from Locutus)
<infinity> juliank: https://patches.ubuntu.com/p/python-apt/python-apt_1.1.0~beta2ubuntu1.patch <-- Plz to apply to Debian git.
<nacc> nemo: when you say "Ubuntu only offers ..." where is "vmware-view-client"? I don't see it in the archives?
<nemo> OMG. Network admin coworker just showed me a screenshot from some vmware thingy of his that says "64 bit vmware view client for linux"
<nemo> sure hope it is 5.0 the date seems promising
<nemo> nacc: weird. wonder where I'm getting it from. I just installed it in 14.04 lts
<nemo> lemme dig it up on ubuntu's website
<nemo> http://www.ubuntuupdates.org/package/canonical_partner/trusty/partner/base/vmware-view-client  shows up here FWIW, but looking for official link
<infinity> It's in the partner archive.
<nacc> ah, partner
<nemo> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/trusty/+package/vmware-view-client
<nemo> ok
<nemo> Anyway. Looks like there might be a 64 bit one that ubuntu isn't packaging. here's hoping.
<nemo> gonna revert all the damage I've done to my libs so far flailing about w/ i386
<infinity> And yes, the newer versions ship 64-bit binaries.
<infinity> I'll be pushing those soon.
<nacc> infinity: how does the partner repo work? does canonical support those packages? or does the partner? (or both, i guess) is it just for ease of use?
<nemo> infinity: omg you are??
<juliank> infinity: Applied - https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/apt/python-apt.git/commit/?id=2e1e4a5
<nemo> infinity: can you link me to the .deb?  it might be a better call than whatever the heck my coworker is going to give me
<nemo> infinity: I wonder if I'll have to still maintain my own opensc
<infinity> nacc: It's based on contracts with said partner, as well as unsuitability for the real archive.
<infinity> nacc: ie: if a contract allows only Canonical to redistribute the non-free blob of doom, we can't slap it in multiverse, which gets mirrored all over the world.
<nemo> yeah, my understanding is the open client got pulled 'cause vmware cancelled their contract *and* hadn't pushed any new code since initial release in 2012
<nemo> (boo)
<infinity> juliank: Ta.
<nemo> stupid vmware view website still links to canonical's "open" client from 2012 if you look for linux
<nemo> s/view//
<nacc> infinity: ah got it, thanks!
<infinity> nacc: As for who "supports" partner, that's a bit muddier.  It's Canonical, and the partner, as you surmise, but given that most of it is non-free binary blobs, there's very little Canonical can do except forward your anger to our partner and hope. :P
<infinity> nacc: So, y'know, I wouldn't recommend you use any of the stuff we ship in there unless you have no choice.
<nacc> infinity: right that's what i was curious about :)
<nemo> infinity: yeah, I was much happier w/ the open client and stuck w/ it right up until server started crashing it
<nemo> I guess since the 4.5 client is open I could in theory try to make a debug build and work aroudn the crash but that's a bit more time than I want to invest in this âº
 * nemo shudders and runs the VMWare installer on his poor pristine ubuntu system
<nemo> agh. has system services too
<nemo> maybe I should have waited for infinity's .deb - god knows how I'm going to ever clean this up
<nemo> infinity: just FYI, the new VMWare View 64 bit client appears to be working perfectly, but only once I apply the exact same fixes as with the old 4.5 one
 * nemo adds an addendum to the launchpad bug
<nemo> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vmware-view-client/+bug/1268770/comments/8
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1268770 in vmware-view-client (Ubuntu) "Error loading shared library for smart card authentication to server" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<bdmurray> pitti: ddebs seems to me missing yakkety-updates, should it be?
 * Unit193 waves to a wild sarnold.
<sarnold> hey Unit193 :)
<pitti> bdmurray: I fixed this earlier today, it's there now
<pitti> xnox: ^ FYI
<pitti> http://ddebs.ubuntu.com/dists/yakkety-updates/
<bdmurray> pitti: great, thanks
<sidi> I'm having a dramatic situation with my PPA. I have forks of the glib, gtk, etc, and almost every Xfce package on it (with custom patches). Recently my glib package seems to have become uninstallable. It seems to conflict with my Xfce packages (which I've ported to make multiarch). I've only noticed the issue today so I dont know what triggered the problem, only that my users are running some old version of the glib. How can I get apt-get to tell me w
<sidi> hy my current libglib2.0-0 conflicts with other packages?
<sidi> when I upgrade it says the glib packages (and the linux headers too for some reason) are being kept back
<sarnold> sidi: do you have any errors you can copy-and-paste? that usually helps
<bipul> http://paste.ubuntu.net/16088679/ can anyone tell me what went wrong?
<dobey> bipul:  pbuilder-satisfydepends-dummy : Depends: texinfo which is a virtual package and is not provided by any available package.
<dobey> sidi: packages held back during upgrade may just have new binary dependencies or such. you need to dist-upgrade to see what will happen when you try to install them
<dobey> sidi: or you can just try to install libglib2.0-0 itself to see what happens for only it
<bipul> dobey, can you explain more about pbuilder? and how to use pbuilder for source package?
<dobey> bipul: you really should use sbuild instead, but seems like perhaps you don't have universe repository enabled in your pbuilder chroot
<bipul> dobey, Yes, it is not been enable, since i am on VPS
<dobey> vps has nothing to do with the pbuilder chroot
<sidi> dobey, ive done that and it's removed a lot of packages. i've got skype:i386 that is no longer installable, knowing that i added deps to my libglib2.0-0 (and other glib packages). Im considering the possibility that if i add a dep to a multiarch source package, which itself is not multiarch, then the resulting libraries built from that source package would no longer be multiarch? that makes very little sense but i cant formulate another hypothesis
<dobey> sidi: if you link to a new binary that is not multiarch, then yes, that may cause problems
<slangasek> the glib2.0 is still multiarch, but that doesn't mean it will be coinstallable if its dependencies aren't
<sidi> dobey, i'm pretty sure this is what happened. i linked to a package because i now use some of its headers, but that package is, originally, not complying to FOSS standards much. It's a mix of headers, libraries and binaries. I'll cut it into multiple bits and see if it works better
<dobey> sidi: ie if skype:i386 depends on libglib2.0-0:i386, and you changed glib2.0 to depend on libfoo which is not multiarch, then libglib2.0-0:i386 will not be installable without libfoo:i386, but libfoo:i386 and libfoo:amd64 can't both be installed
<sidi> dobey, slangasek how would i verify that this is the issue though? can I get apt-get to give me more infos what deps arent satisfied?
<slangasek> you also need to have built glib for all relevant archs, you can't mix and match across versions
<dobey> sidi: apt-get would have told you what apt was going to do, and you can infer from that what happened
<dobey> anyway, i have to go. later
<sidi> slangasek, i think it's "well" built for both amd64 and i386. The problem is it cant be installed on amd64 systems that have existing, well built i386 binaries depending on the i386 glib. Or the other way around, such i386 binaries cant be installed any more after the amd64 glib is installed
<sidi> dobey, thanks either way, i believe you're right
<sidi> going to try and fix that now.
<mwhudson> is mk-sbuild setting preserve-environment on the schroots it creates really sane?
<infinity> mwhudson: I don't see that in the code...
<mwhudson> hm
<mwhudson> wonder where it comes form then
<mwhudson> oh, i clearly cargo-culted ~/.mk-sbuildrc from somewhere silly
<mwhudson> i.e. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SimpleSbuild
<dmick> hi all.  I am puzzling over a question of install behavior that makes me want to browse the code comprising the ubuntu non-LiveCD installer
<dmick> which I gather is based heavily on debian-installer, but probably there are ubuntu-specific mods.
<dmick> where should I look to start understanding the structure of the installation boot  (what programs run when, where are there sources,etc.)?
<dmick> (this is in service of the question "who creates /etc/init/ttySn.conf to start the getty for my SoL device, pre-systemd")
<sarnold> dmick: iirc server images use https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer and desktop images use https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity
<dmick> sounds right; wonder if there's a "flow of operations" doc somewhere
<tarpman> https://launchpad.net/d-i has a nice list of the components involved, not sure about such a doc though
<cjwatson> dmick: https://d-i.alioth.debian.org/doc/internals/
<cjwatson> dmick: I can answer your actual question directly if you like, but only if you actually want that rather than having the learning experience
<sarnold> :)
<dmick> well it's complicated :)
<dmick> but yes I'd welcome a cheatsheet in this instance
<cjwatson> dmick: it's in the finish-install package (you won't be able to apt-get install that, but apt-get source should work), finish-install.d/90console
<dmick> ooh, that would have been annoying to try to find on my own, I bet
<dmick> thank you
<cjwatson> np
<dmick> and that alioth doc is awesome too; I assume the ubuntu process is largely similar with small patches then?
<cjwatson> dmick: The general structure is pretty close, yes.
<cjwatson> And yes, the internals doc is good.  RIP Frans. :-(
#ubuntu-devel 2016-04-28
<infinity> :(
<sidi> Currently splitting a pretty insane package into multiarch. I'm separating my existing pkg into a bin package, a common package and a lib-0 / lib-dev multiarch package. the source package has scripts under /usr/lib/foobar.sh, and the binaries of that package hardcode a path to that lib
<sidi> yes I could spend the entire night writing new patches instead of sleeping, but if this is going to my -common package (it's scripts after all), how can I write my rules to ensure that only the Multi-Arch: same packages have a /
<sidi> have a usr/lib/ARCH/... libdir, and that the common package (with Multi-Arch: any) uses the usual usr/lib/...
<sidi> or in other words, is /$(DEB_HOST_MULTIARCH) defined when Multi-Arch: is set to any? in that case my current LIBDIR := usr/lib/$(DEB_HOST_MULTIARCH) line in rules should do what I need, right?
<infinity> DEB_HOST_MULTIARCH is always set.
<infinity> But installing foobar.sh to LIBDIR is wrong anyway, it should be LIBEXECDIR
<infinity> Which may or may not be the same thing, depending on platform.
<slangasek> ... if you are building with dpkg-buildpackage it is always set.  Since policy allows you to build by calling ./debian/rules build, you should be setting it in your makefile with DEB_HOST_MULTIARCH ?= $(shell dpkg-architecture -qDEB_HOST_MULTIARCH).
<slangasek> where "your makefile" == "debian/rules"
<infinity> It's always set for dh(1) targets, isn't it?
<slangasek> infinity: yes, that also
<slangasek> with the proper compat level etc etc
<infinity> sidi: Anyhow, LIBDIR and LIBEXECDIR are different for a reason.  They may often be the same on, say, RedHat, but they differ on Debian, and differ wildly on BSD (where /usr/libexec is a thing), so yeah.  Callable programs don't live in LIBDIR.
<infinity> sidi: That one might take an upstream patch to fix, but it's also The Right Thing To Do.
<sidi> aw
<sidi> infinity, the thing is this goes into a PPA and my main concern is that I need the fix pushed asap to my study participants so I can stop throwing money out of the window :-) and all of these packages get burnt to the ground the second I don't need them...
<infinity> And yet, you're spending time trying to figure out how to multiarch it...
<sidi> the original package is firejail. the upstream app doesnt respect any conventions for build chains, and the existing package doesnt have patches to use libexec instead of lib
<slangasek> yes, ironically multiarching the world had the side effect of undoing the FHS's attempted merge of libdir and libexecdir
<sidi> if i try to do the right thing i probably lose one or two weeks
<sidi> infinity, yes because it makes other packages uninstallable
<sidi> i have some existing multiarch libs in my PPA that now depend on this package's actual .so libraries (as part of my research). I need to split those from the rest
<sidi> Also this is a Linux only package for the matter :-) It's based on Linux namespaces
<sidi> knowing this, what would be the least resistance path for me? should i just move all those .sh files to /usr/share/ or something, patch the package's binaries' hard coded paths and go to bed?
<infinity> sidi: Well, there's no rule that you have to keep the paths that "make install" gives you. :P
<infinity> sidi: Just move things around a bit after dh_auto_install
<sidi> if i change the paths i need to patch the original app :-) it somehow expects those .sh files in /usr/lib, sadly
<infinity> Yes...
<infinity> So, keep the .sh files there.  They belong there.
<infinity> And put the libraries in the multiarch paths.
<infinity> And you win.
<infinity> You don't have to accept where the upstream makefile puts things as final.
<sidi> infinity, right so I need to ensure the Makefile uses libdir only for actual .so libraries
<sidi> and patch the makefile and voila?
<infinity> No.
<infinity> Just install with libdir=multiarch as you were, then mv multiarch/firefail/fshaper.sh to usr/lib
<Unit193> Hah, nice typo.
<infinity> Or do so with a .install file, which I assume you already have for your package split.
<infinity> Unit193: Freudian.
<sidi> Unit193, wait what? :p
<sidi> infinity, alright, let me type this all up and check if it works. im writing the install files right now. well. i'm trying to guess what should be in there from other packages
<infinity>         install -c -m 0755 src/ftee/ftee $(DESTDIR)/$(libdir)/firejail/.
<infinity>         install -c -m 0755 src/fshaper/fshaper.sh $(DESTDIR)/$(libdir)/firejail/.
<infinity> Looks like those are the two that need special treatment.
<infinity> sidi: Note that the configure script does know what libexecdir means, so you could also fix it in the upstream Makefile.in with libexecdir=@libexecdir@ and twiddling those two lines.
<infinity> YMMV, have fun, etc.
 * infinity deletes the source before he's tempted to do the work.
<sidi> infinity, thanks
<sidi> infinity, you would be wasting your time anyway :-) my fork has an extra libraries on top of the existing mess :-)
<smoser> hey, if anyone wants to look at bug 1575572 i'd appreciate it. basically init-system-helpers is broken for installation of a package before systemd is entirely booted.
<ubottu> bug 1575572 in init-system-helpers (Ubuntu) "apache2 fails to start if installed via cloud config (on Xenial)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1575572
<infinity> smoser: How is that not a cloud-init bug?  Installing services and expecting them to start *while still booting* is a bit nutty.
<smoser> it has worked since before lucid
<infinity> Because pre-systemd, you probably ran in rc2
<infinity> Or you ran in rcS, and then apache started when you reached rc2.
<smoser> no. apache started when it was installed like it should have.
<infinity> Then you were running your install in rc2.
<smoser> possibly. you're probably right that 'runlevel' would provide some actual useful output rather than 'unknown'
<smoser> it doesnt seem that odd for a service to insall other packages and do so as it runs in boot.
<smoser> puppet or chef probably do this.
<infinity> They most certainly don't.
<smoser> really?
<infinity> They run a daemon post-boot that checks for sanity and reconciles desired system state.
<smoser> when is 'post-boot' ?
<infinity> At least puppet actually has a delay built in.
<infinity> But it's tripped from cron, so at least cron needs to be running.
<smoser> ah.. sleep 12 should cover it.
<smoser> this coudl be tripped really by anthing
<smoser> boot system
<smoser> ssh starts
<smoser> user sshes in
<smoser> apt-get install package
<smoser> user expects package is installed
<smoser> but systemd isn't "finished"
<smoser> s/ssh/logs in at console/
<infinity> In systemd parlance, though, it would be "systemctl is-system-running" that is interesting before going and doing apt/dpkg things, I'd say.
<smoser> i think its a bug. this worked for at least 3 consecutive LTS releases, probaly worked in gutsy, but i dont really have the interest to check.
<smoser> by your suggestion, installation of packages in rc.local would not be possible without some background and poll.
<smoser> really seems broken.
<infinity> Anyhow, if there's any bug there, it's that we're not starting apache after moving into rc2.  Starting a service in an unknown system state is exactly what an init system is meant to prevent.
<smoser> that is not entirely unreasonable. not entirely.
<smoser> but it wont start after moving to rc2 because systemd calculates its dependencies and such one time
<infinity> Today's painful lesson: Never type 'telinit 2' on a systemd system.
<xnox> infinity, hahahahahahaha
<xnox> been there done that
<xnox> infinity, smoser - i fell disturbance of the force due to lack of $ systemctl daemon-reload in apache2.postinst
<xnox> *feel
<xnox> pitti, should packages that ship init scripts only, call systemctl daemon reload?
<infinity> xnox: The systemd trigger covers that.
<infinity> xnox: (So, that's not the problem here)
<sarnold> is there any long-term plan to .. clean up after the N init systems at some point?
<sarnold> there's a certain lack of elegance in having /etc/init/foo.conf /etc/init.d/foo.sh and .. uhh wherever it is that foo.unit files are stored.
<infinity> sarnold: Once we no longer have any upstart sessions anywhere in any of our products, we can completely kill upstart.
<infinity> sarnold: Keeping sysvinit for all things in Debian is likely going to continue forever.
<infinity> Or, at least, a long time.
<sarnold> infinity: well, that's something I guess.
<dmick> anyone else got cjwatson-level install-fu, or cjwatson: so I understand most of what finish-install's 90-console does, except 1) who writes /var/run/console-device (kernel?)and 2) where does $rawconsole come from.  (I think I got all the 500MB of pieces of debian-installer, but I can't find that string anywhere in it, where I'd expect it)
<sarnold> zounds that was quick, I glanced over 90-console and had -zero- idea what it did :)
<dmick> well, I am sort of in the middle of this problem :)
<cyphermox> dmick: I can look it up
<cyphermox> not nearly the semi-god install-fu of cjwatson, but installers are my thing ;)
<dmick> I'm not even sure how it would be passed to this script; AIUI it's running as a postinstall during package installation, and it's surprising that something as specific as 'rawconsole' would be defined in its env, but I don't know how else it could get there
<dmick> I suppose it's also possible it's just ab ug.
<cyphermox> dmick: the best thing is probably for you to tell us exactly what is the problem you're trying to solve though
<dmick> specifically, I started off trying to understand how /etc/init/ttySN.conf got written to enable getty on 'the console' SoL device
<dmick> (which appears to match the console= given to the install kernel cmdline)
<dmick> and really that's still the goal; the questions above are in service of that underlying question
<dmick> (the reason is, we have provisioning code that was configuring this automatically that appears to no longer be necessary, but I'm unwilling to remove it without at least trying to understand why it's not necessary anymore)
<infinity> dmick: It's not necessary because systemd doesn't statically configure gettys.
<dmick> well yes but we're still provisioning  trusty systems
<infinity> Oh, we magically fixed in there too? ;)
<dmick> but yeah, I caught the bit about systemd doing this now
<infinity> What is your console device?
<dmick> /dev/ttySn where n is 0, 1, or 2 depending on the platform
<infinity> fwiw, rawconsole just looks like a bug.
<dmick> I was starting to think that
<dmick> a harmless one, no doubt
<infinity> Quite.
<cyphermox> unless it comes from some d-i C code that runs finish.d
<infinity> As for your provisioning, if you're setting console on the commandline, it should Just Work.
<infinity> There shouldn't be need to do anything manual.
<dmick> it seems like it does
<dmick> like I say, the question was "how", and cjwatson pointed me to this script, which held most of the answer
<dmick> so now I'm just filling out the whole picture.  any ideas about the origin of /var/run/console-device?
<dmick> oh duh I hadn't grepped d-i yet
<infinity> It's from rootskel.
<dmick> yep
<infinity> Which the finish-install changelog mentions.
<cyphermox> there you go
<dmick> reopen-console-linux, looks like
<dmick> heh, and, amusingly, there's a "console_raw" in that script
<dmick> wow.  grepping for a kernel message
<dmick> and then eventually what probably happens: grepping /proc/cmdline
<dmick> awesome.
<dmick> that feels right
<infinity> dmick: The sketchy ringbuffer grepping is only on ancient kernels.  We can probably tear all that out upstream now.
<dmick> so this provisioning code originated as far back as oneiric, and I bet that either 1) at the time we weren't using the right console= options, or order, in the install boot, and/or 2) it was not quite as smart in those days.  so we just hadn't noticed it was automatic now.
<infinity> src/sbin/get-real-console-linux.c is still correct, though.
<dmick> ah.  nice info: /dev/console is magical
<dmick> *awesome*.  that's much more than I paid for.  you guys are teh awesome
<cyphermox> dmick: /dev/console is just whatever was last set as console=
<cyphermox> (ie. if you set it multiple times on the cmdline, or it's some default based on the platform or something)
<dmick> ...assuming all that other stuff in reopen-console-linux falls through, yes, looks like
<dmick> oh sorry, you said /dev/console.  ok.
<dmick> right.  and it's got its own maj/min, but the ioctl gets you the real one.  on my desktop running X, it's tty7; on this headless machine I was looking at, it's .. wait for it...  ttyS1, what a coincidence
<dmick> that really nails home a lot of stuff I haven't fully understood for a long time; thanks
<dmick> so it looks like the active branch of reopen-console-linux is likely the one that calls get-real-console-linux
<lfaraone> Is the header for pages like http://releases.ubuntu.com/xenial/ maintained in some bzr branch somewhere I could submit a patch to?
<dmick> cyphermox: infinity: really appreciate it.  thanks a mil.
<infinity> lfaraone: lp:ubuntu-cdimage
<sarnold> "The Breezy Colony 5 release was".. oy vey :)
<cpaelzer> good morning
<pitti> xnox: as Adam said
<Bluefoxicy> hilarious
<Bluefoxicy> I upgraded from 14.04 to 15.10, and now I'm upgrading to 16.04
<Bluefoxicy> in the past several months, I never noticed that the upgrade kept the 3.16 kernel and never upgraded to 4.2.  No 4.2 kernels installed under Wily.
<pitti> Bluefoxicy: missing linux-generic  metapackage?
<Bluefoxicy> maybe
<Bluefoxicy> it upgraded to 4.4 during do-release-update to 16.04 LTS
<seb128> could somebody from the SRU team look at gnome-software in the xenial queue?
<pitti> seb128: ok, I'll do a round of sru processing
<seb128> pitti, thanks
<seb128> pitti, hey btw, wie gehts? still under snow?
<pitti> ugh, I got that queue empty yesterday, lots of uploads since then :)
<pitti> seb128: non, il y a du soleil Ã  nouveau \o/
<pitti> seb128: mais il fait encore trÃ¨s froid, il n'y a qu'une degrÃ©e :/
<seb128> pitti, c'est l'hiver...
<pitti> en effet !
<pitti> les premiÃ¨res deux semaines d'avril Ã©tait trÃ¨s bon
<pitti> seb128: but I'm sure that next ween in Austin will be really warm :)
<seb128> pitti, what sprint is that?
<pitti> seb128: cloud sprint
<seb128> oh ok
<seb128> have fun there!
<pitti> merci !
<pitti> seb128: btw, reviewing syncs for SRUs is a royal pain; any chance that these can become proper uploads?
<pitti> (fine for this one, but for the future)
<seb128> yes, I guess this one had no real reason to be a copy
<seb128> sorry about that
<pitti> seb128: also needs uploading to yakkety
<seb128> pitti, ack
<seb128> pitti, can't we just pocket copy? we used to do that early in the cycle
<pitti> seb128: I'd rather not; we have a big compiler change, a libpng and other lib transitions already
<seb128> k
<pitti> and that's the kind of package that very well might link against libpng or libicu
<seb128> we are working on rebasing on 2.20.2 we might just upload that one
<pitti> armhf test queue < 1000, yay
<ginggs> hi pitti, can you let json-c's tests run against u1db 13.10-6.1build1 in -proposed please?
<pitti> ginggs: I'll do a mass-retry of regressions as soon as the current backlog settles down
<pitti> ginggs: one "normal" round and one against --all-proposed
<pitti> to shake out the implicit/forgotten versioned dependencies
<rbasak> xnox: are you planning SRUs for bug 1572613?
<ubottu> bug 1572613 in gcc-mingw-w64 (Ubuntu) "GCC stack access scheduled after stack deallocation" [Wishlist,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1572613
<rbasak> For MySQL, I'm expecting an SRU soon anyway.
<xnox> rbasak, yes and no.
<xnox> rbasak, so first there needs to be a gcc sru, and then rebuilds with fixed compiler.
<xnox> rbasak, doko did say that he wants to sru gcc when 5.4 is out (or something like that)
<xnox> and then i'll be looking into what needs fixing, and what "organically" fixes itself.
<xnox> rbasak, it also matters where we upload the compiler to.... cause e.g. imho it should be in security pockt.
<xnox> but i don't know what plan doko had for the gcc sru, and whether e.g. apw / arges will be annoyed if we do put the kernel into -security
<xnox> (affects kernel builds for live patching)
<apw> changing the compiler in a stable is always problematic, as i understand the world if we sru a compiler we
<apw> have to consider it for the security pocket, so that kernels and dkms packages are built with the same compiler
<apw> and we alwyas use the -security compiler for the main kernel
<xnox> yeah, cause otherwise there lies madness
<xnox> apw, with that compiler bug it is tricky, cause it was not trigger on the kernel sources.... so far...
<xnox> but it could be =(
<apw> xnox, i am not saying that we shouldn't update the ocmpiler, i am just saying i think it has to go
<apw> to the security pocket if we do
<xnox> quite for many reasons
<xnox> apw, but i don't want to do security uploads =) i don't think i ever done one. So up to doko really =)
<siretart> mvo: any chance you could upload the changes in your apt-btrfs-snapshot branch? Did you see my question to you in LP: #1454306? - can I help you with doing the upload for you?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1454306 in apt-btrfs-snapshot (Ubuntu) "apt-btrfs-snapshot supported reports "Sorry, your system lacks support for the snapshot feature" since update of btrfs-tools to 4.0-2 in debian/testing" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1454306
<ginggs> hi,  gdcm ftbfs on amd64 only since yakkety (xenial was fine) while linking against libpapyrus3-dev (a static-only lib) "lib/libPapyrus3.a(PapyError3.c.o): relocation R_X86_64_32 against `.rodata.str1.8' can not be used when making a shared object; recompile with -fPIC".  If I do a no-change rebuild of papyrus, then gdcm builds again on amd64. Does this make sense?  If so, what should I put in papyrus' changelog?
<pitti> ginggs: yakkety's gcc now defaults to -fPIE
<pitti> ginggs: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2016-April/001183.html
<pitti> ginggs: not sure how to revert that, though; -fPIE can't work with static linking
<pitti> so maybe it's a gcc bug that it uses PIE for .a too?
<pitti> ginggs: also, static linking, *tsk* :0
<mvo> siretart: uh, I have not seen that. and help with the upload is very welcome, thanks a bunch for the offer!
<ginggs> pitti: this doesn't affect ppc64el though
 * pitti thought most libraries stopped shipping .a
<pitti> ginggs: right, it only was changed on amd64
<ginggs> so isn't rebuilding papyrus with new flags a good thing to do?
<pitti> ginggs: yes, it should be, if you disable the -fPIE thing; but I'm not sure whether this is a bug in gcc or in papyrus
<pitti> doko: ^?
<ginggs> but papyrus and gdcm both build fine without disabling -fPIE
<pitti> I thought you just said it doesn't
<pitti> oh, with rebuilding both
<ginggs> yeah
<pitti> ginggs: hm, that almost sounds like the rebuild would build the .a with PIE
<pitti> which is wrong AFAIK
<ginggs> i can't think of a difference between building the .a with PIE and bundling the paprus source into gdcm and building the whole lot with PIE
<ginggs> hmm, and it is lunchtime
<siretart> mvo: in order to build the package, I had to disable the pep8 and pyflakes unit test - both fail.
<siretart> mvo: please confirm that you are OK with me uploading a package that disables both tests to rakety
<siretart> mvo: hm, fixing both tests was easy, I'll upload with those changes
<rbasak> xnox: OK, thanks. Well just FYI then, when you're ready it might be worth checking if an SRU has already landed or I still have one planned.
<xnox> rbasak, will do will do
<doko> ginggs, pitti: yes, rebuilding should be fine
<doko> sbeattie, ^^^ still missing your list of static libs to rebuild :-/
<pitti> doko: it's ok now to build static libs with -fPIE? (and apparently required now too)?
<doko> pitti, if these are used to build binaries built with pie, yes
<pitti> doko: ah ok, so that means in yakkety we'll rebuild all packages that ship an .a
<ginggs> i think things will blow up if someone tries to link the .a into a .so
<pitti> doko: thanks for the heads-up
<doko> pitti, and no, we don't have infrastructure to build static libs fithout pie yet
<pitti> ginggs: well, .so were always supposed to be PIC/PIE, no?
<ginggs> pitti: i thought PIC yes, PIE no
<ginggs> but i don't know for sure
<pitti> ginggs: I keep confusing the two, I keep thinking of them as the same
<pitti> xnox, seb128, slangasek: should we talk about un-upstartifying the desktop session next week at UDS?
<xnox> pitti, that would be good
<pitti> we haven't had an upstart maintainer for a long time any more, and we're already having trouble finding someone who keeps it buildable
<pitti> seb128, xnox: also sounds like a nice topic for a mini-sprint
<seb128> +1
<seb128> is any distribution using systemd for user sessions nowadays?
<pitti> seb128: unknown, but I figure most of them use good old gnome-session
<seb128> right
<pitti> and I'm sure we can at least replace some of them with dbus activation
<Laney> desrt says not
<Laney> i.e. someone should work on this :-)
<xnox> seb128, as far as i know we are the only ones to have an init for a user session at all.
<pitti> so for example, unity-settings-daemon both has an xdg autostart and an upstart session job
<xnox> seb128, yolla kind of uses systemd, but it's single-user / system systemd, with many weird patches
<pitti> xnox: no, the user systemd unit runs pretty much everywhere, just nobody uses it for distro things yet
<xnox> pitti, yeah, i was keeping xdg autostart for systemd-xdg-autostart generator (not upstream)
<xnox> pitti, so folks at intel have demostrated full user systemd session with like even "start xfce.target" after a "start gnome.target" with gnome tearing down, xfce coming up with applications staying in place
<xnox> very scary but totally usable
<xnox> but none of that shipped anywhere.
<mapreri> in lp #1574745 can i have a xenial task instead of a milestone in the main task, so that yakkety can be fixed separately?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1574745 in libreoffice-dictionaries (Ubuntu) "Missing symlinks to match locales" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1574745
<xnox> pitti, seb128 - but it would probably mean we need user dbus1, upgraded dbus1, and work out the kinks if we can use that.
<xnox> as there is no support of multiple systemd user sessions per user, like we currently have in upstart
<xnox> pitti, seb128 anyway, yes we should talk, and i should go to the airport soon.
<seb128> is multiple-sessions-for-one-users something we support?
<pitti> ok, let me create a blueprint/UDS discussion about that
<pitti> xnox: oh, already?
 * pitti leaves on Sunday
<seb128> xnox, safe flight
<xnox> pitti, i had a holiday from thrusday - monday, which i had to cut short, so i'm going to austin from budapest on sunday
<xnox> and hence wasted money on a non-refundable flight from budapest to london, and one night of hotel.
<pitti> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-y-replace-upstart
<pitti> ah, I feel my lost TB powers already, I can't ack this for UOS any more nor for yakkety (only propose)
<pitti> dholbach: do you see this ^ on https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uos-1605 ? I apparently can't see proposed topics any more
<dholbach> pitti, accepted
<pitti> dholbach: danke
<pitti> dholbach: wow, this really is the first BP for UOS
<dholbach> some folks filed "meetings" in summit directly
<doko> yofel, please could you sync/merge digikam?
<yofel> doko: sure... until when do you need it? (that's not a small thing)
<doko> yofel, blocks the lensfun transition (it's a small one), so not immediately
<yofel> ok, I'll take a look over the weekend then probably
<ginggs> doko: thanks for aster and getdp rebuilds, for some reason i thought they would not be necessary
<doko> ginggs, pcl still ftbfs
<ginggs> doko: yeah, i saw :(
<ginggs> doko: at this stage i have no ideas what do about pcl and yade, both look like issues with boost 1.60 to me
<doko> ginggs, when in doubt, ask xnox
<ginggs> xnox said "don't use boost" or something like that :)
<ogra_> thats just a macro in his IRC client :P
<shadeslayer> heh xD
<cpaelzer> is there a way that one can send a link (e.g. in a mail) to a file in a deb?
<cpaelzer> I can't get to the actual content from here https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dpdk/2.2.0-0ubuntu8 or http://packages.ubuntu.com/xenial/all/dpdk-doc/filelist
<cjwatson> not afaik
<cpaelzer> maybe they are just never "extracted" and so can't be reached, but if they are let me know
<rbasak> Unfortunately not, AFAIK.
<rbasak> The bzr importer used to do it, but doesn't for >= Xenial.
<cpaelzer> rbasak: thanks, at least I can stop to search
<rbasak> nacc's git importer may help when it's ready and running on dpdk.
<cjwatson> even for the bzr importer that was only for source packages
<cjwatson> while cpaelzer was asking about debs
<rbasak> If the package is in Debian, then sources.debian.net can do it, but presumably that doesn't apply to dpdk right now.
<cjwatson> (there is of course overlap)
<cjwatson> I'd love to have sources.d.n for Ubuntu
<rbasak> Oh.
<rbasak> Sorry!
<rbasak> Yeah, so most of what I said isn't relevant.
<cjwatson> but am not volunteering!
<slangasek> pitti: fwiw that UUID shown in that /etc/fstab on the bug is the GPT partition UUID (as the latest bug followup confirms), which no tool would ever have put in /etc/fstab automatically because it doesn't work; this is why the submitter's claim to have never edited /etc/fstab by hand is not credible
<pitti> slangasek: urgh, yes, that doesn't belong there indeed
<pitti> well, that still doesn't rule out that there's some shady package in ubuntu who does that
<pitti> but we won't know really without a reproducer
<slangasek> pitti: would have to be *very* shady, to simulate trial-and-error edits to /etc/fstab ;P
<pitti> slangasek: well, I've had my share with ecryptfs-setup-swap breaking stuff :) (and it's still not done, got another case reported recently)
<cyphermox> slangasek: could it be the result of some weird "fix grub" app?
<pitti> but I'm reasonably sure it's not that one for this case
<slangasek> cyphermox: maybe.  Do we have such a thing in the archive? If so, we should blast it with a cannon
<cyphermox> looking.
<doko> hmm, what really is the rationale for building static libs with pie?
<slangasek> doko: besides "it's hard to exclude them", and "if your executables are going to be PIE the static libs linked into them need to be PIE"?
<doko> slangasek, well, maybe for the former we should have patched libtool for most libs. Do we have any of these binaries for the latter? looks like collateral damage
<doko> now rebuilding all rdeps for partclone
<slangasek> doko: since we're building executables as PIE by default now, sure, any static lib in the archive that's being linked into an executable depends on this
<slangasek> and there are going to be plenty of those around, because if libtool convenience libraries if nothing else
<slangasek> (so changing this in libtool is also not going to DTRT)
<cyphermox> slangasek: boot-repair looks like a possible culprit, that's *not* in the archive.
<tjaalton> anyone who knows qt5 around? why does building owncloud-client against qt5 break it's notificator (doesn't show up)?
<doko> tjaalton, is this related to png? there were some test failures in the last qt5 build, so I disabled these to the icu/libpng transition done. didn't hear yet back from Mirv
<tjaalton> doko: this is on xenial, actually it's been broken since wily
<tjaalton> bug 1511058
<ubottu> bug 1511058 in owncloud-client (Ubuntu) "No application indicator" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1511058
<doko> tjaalton, ok, then it's not me =)
<tjaalton> yeah :)
<flexiondotorg> mdeslaur, Do you have a moment for a sort of security question?
<doko> seb128, Laney: please could you merge gtk3 and friends?
<_3by8> Hi, sorry to bother you guys but I was pretty sure that someone in here could tell me how to figure out if a package comes preinstalled or not. Specifically, open-vm-tools.
<seb128> doko, not this week, team sprint, maybe next but SRUs for the LTS to do first and I didn't install y vms/chroots/etc yet
<seb128> but feel free to do it if you want
<seb128> need to go, team diner
<_3by8> I'm having an issue with it and I don't think #ubuntu is going to be able to help. Just to give you some more background, it's preinstalled on a VMWare guest where I need to have the regular VMWare tools. Is it a preinstalled package for all systems? I know I can remove it but I was wondering if there's a switch or something during installation to suppress that from happening if that's the case.
<dobey> _3by8: it's installed by default in the ubuntu-server image
<dobey> but not ubuntu-desktop and derivatives
<_3by8> dobey: can you exclude that package from being installed?
<dobey> _3by8: if you install "ubuntu-dev-tools" you can run "seeded-in-ubuntu $package" to see what it's seeded in
<_3by8> dobey: never mind, I'll use the network installer.
<_3by8> dobey: thank you!
<doko> slangasek, so partclone ends up with:
<doko> make[3]: Entering directory '/Â«PKGBUILDDIRÂ»/fail-mbr'
<doko> sh compile-mbr.sh
<doko> collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
<doko>  /usr/bin/ld: attempted static link of dynamic object `fail-mbr.o'
<doko> now we build up everything for dynamic linkage, and then I assume we pass -no-pie to this builds ... :-/
<slangasek> doko: 'mbr' sounds like something that's meant to build freestanding?
<doko> yes
<slangasek> doko: are each of the objects built before that being passed compiler options that communicate 'freestanding'?  Could we infer no-pie from this?
<doko> slangasek, in this case, no, just -nostdlib is passed. unsure if I can assume if this always should be built with -no-pie
<slangasek> doko: maybe not "always" built with -no-pie, but maybe it would make sense to assume -no-pie by default?
<hallyn> wgrant: i've asked this before, think the answer was no... ther eis no way for me to do a git fetch on launchpad itself into a lp tree (in particular from debian anonscm) right?
<slangasek> nacc: hi, fyi I'm going to sync the new version of php-defaults from Debian; this drops our delta to the versioned Breaks:, which is ok because there are newer versions of all of these packages now in yakkety except for php-imagick and php-radius, which need a merge; so php-defaults will just hang out in yakkety-proposed until those merges are done, and then it will have a minor impact on upgrade
<slangasek> ordering from xenial which isn't worth carrying a delta for
<smoser> anyone able to tell me if this would work:
<smoser>  https://code.launchpad.net/~smoser/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.yakkety.cloudimg-is-server/+merge/293308
<smoser> namely, can one seed list a meta-package that is derived from another ? I suspect it will work, but wonder if its a good idea or if there'd be other fallout.
<slangasek> smoser: should probably target the right branch fwiw; but you don't need to make the seed depend on ubuntu-server, you just declare in STRUCTURE that it inherits from ubuntu-server and the fact that these seeds are both metapackages means germinate + ubuntu-meta will DTRT
<slangasek> ... if I'm not mistaken
<slangasek> smoser: ok, so I may be mistaken.  You still want to do the STRUCTURE bit so that dependencies don't end up duplicated between the two metapackages, but you may indeed need that explicit ubuntu-server, judging by what I see of other packages in the archive
<smoser> i re-set the merge target (you probably saw that)
<smoser> cloud-image i dont think is a meta-package
<smoser> it is a seed.
<smoser> and bzr logging shows that once before i did make the change to show cloud-image: standard and then reverted it . my comment says that was per discussion with cjwatson
<nacc> slangasek: ack, thanks!
<slangasek> smoser: that was two years ago, and possibly based on different requirements at the time?  would like to know what cjwatson's specific objections were there; certainly, given the goal of minimizing and then eliminating the delta between cloud-image and server, I would prefer explicit inheritance there
<slangasek> smoser: STRUCTURE is a different sort of inheritance vs. depending on the metapackage
<slangasek> anyway, that change LGTM
<slangasek> nacc: btw, are you pushing the stage1 patches up to Debian?  Do you have a list of these, should I drop them when merging packages that I'm TIL on and wait for them to come back in from upstream (or not)?
<nacc> slangasek: yes, it's on my todo list for this week or next, I hope
<mwhudson> docker seems to have been running in autopkgtests for like 12+ hours, but it says "Running for: 35 min 55 s"
<mwhudson> does it keep failing and getting retried or something?
<slangasek> mwhudson: where do you see "12+ hours"?
<slangasek> it's probably a retry of a failed run, or a run that went missing
<mwhudson> slangasek: it was running when i went to bed
<slangasek> ok
<mwhudson> which, sadly, i admit was not 12 hours ago
<mwhudson> but definitely more than 35 mins
<slangasek> mwhudson: did you definitely see in running, or just 'Test in progress'?
<mwhudson> slangasek: it's on http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.shtml
<slangasek> yes, it is now
<slangasek> but 12 hours ago, was it? :)
<mwhudson> and yes, it was there with output and stuff last night too
<slangasek> ok fun
<slangasek> then the results were lost, I didn't know that was a thing
<mwhudson> i have learnt about the thing where "running" on excuses can actually mean "in the queue behind half of debian"
<mwhudson> also excuses links to https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-yakkety/yakkety/ppc64el/d/docker.io/20160428_134742@/log.gz which is a failure on amd64
<mwhudson> but i don't think it's linked from http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/d/docker.io/yakkety/ppc64el/
<mwhudson> er
<mwhudson> *failure on ppc64el
<slangasek> ... neat
<slangasek> mwhudson: pitti should be apprised of these issues; can you file bugs on https://bugs.launchpad.net/auto-package-testing ?
<mwhudson> slangasek: ok
<mwhudson> huh it's no longer on running.shtml but it's not on http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/d/docker.io/yakkety/amd64/ either
<mwhudson> slangasek: is it britney that starts the autopkgtests running?
<mwhudson> it sort of seems like the results are getting lost so something is just scheduling them to run again?
<slangasek> mwhudson: britney triggers them, yes.  britney won't trigger a second time though, so the something else that retriggered is probably a release team member
<slangasek> mwhudson: so that's likely pitti, but he may not know that the tests ran before and had results lost as he probably batch-retried
<mwhudson> ah ok
<mwhudson> these tests are cursed, it seems :-)
<smoser> anyone know what urls 'snap install' hits ?
<pitti> mwhudson: yes, I'm aware of the docker loop; somewhere in the middle it kills the sshd server-side process  which results in ssh returning with 255, which we currently treat as "temporary failure"
<pitti> mwhudson: thus the test is just looping forever
<pitti> mwhudson: I'm not quite sure yet what to do about that infra-wise, as in general we *do* want to retry on ssh failures
<Unit193> bdmurray: You could likely consider 1573404 a request to add an option to jump early from an LTS to LTS without the first point release.  Currently silly blogs recommend you use '-d' and tell you to ignore the warnings, which can lead to fun if running this when there's an active development version.
<pitti> mwhudson: yes, autopkgtest.u.c. browsing is a bit behind, that's on my TODO list
<pitti> mwhudson: the direct log links from britney should be okay though
<mwhudson> pitti: uggggh
<pitti> mwhudson: I updated your bug report, I'll ponder this tomorrow
<mwhudson> pitti: strange though, britney links to a log for ppc64el but not amd64
<pitti> mwhudson: why strange? as I said, it only loops on ppc64el
<pitti> mwhudson: err sorry, only on amd64
<pitti> mwhudson: the armhf queue just didn't get to it yet (armhf is lagging quite a bit)
<pitti> and the others have results
<mwhudson> pitti: ah i think it *was* looping on ppc64el
<pitti> mwhudson: note that "in progress (always failed)" does not block promotion
<mwhudson> pitti: but then managed to fail more catastrophically and earlier, and got properly recorded as a failure
<pitti> mwhudson: it's the armhf test that does
<pitti> mwhudson: ah, could be :)
<mwhudson> pitti: yeah i'm not so worried about migration, but it would be nice for these tests to work :-)
<mwhudson> tianon: ^^
<mwhudson> pitti: thanks for the updates
<mwhudson> pitti: oh one thing, are the logs for the runs that end with ssh dying kept anywhere?
<pitti> mwhudson: yes, I have them, but they aren't public right now
<pitti> mwhudson: want one?
<mwhudson> pitti: please
<mwhudson> pitti: i filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/docker.io/+bug/1576419 too
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1576419 in docker.io (Ubuntu) "autopkgtests kill ssh" [Undecided,New]
<pitti> mwhudson: followed up
<pitti> mwhudson: I have the complete logs too, but they are a bit difficult to haul across, and also uninteresting (AFAICS)
<mwhudson> pitti: thanks
<mwhudson> fair enough
<pitti> but if you need them, I can get them
<mwhudson> pitti: i guess it *could* be OOM?
<pitti> mwhudson: yes, that's possible of course
<mwhudson> pitti: how much ram do the instances have?
<pitti> mwhudson: 1.5 GB normally
<mwhudson> ok
<mwhudson> next step is to run the tests in verbose mode i guess
<pitti> mwhudson: I can add docker.io to "big_tests" which would get them 8 GB
<mwhudson> pitti: if that's easy and not too disruptive it might be worth a try?
<pitti> but if I do that now before going to bed, I risk blocking the quota for five runners perpetually
<pitti> mwhudson: *shrug* ok, done now
<pitti> I can do another half hour
<mwhudson> hm well
 * pitti kills the currently running test
<mwhudson> pitti: are you the only one who has access to the infrastructure?
<pitti> mwhudson: no; Laney should know his way fairly well; infinity, slangasek and some others have too, but didn't get much hands-on training
<mwhudson> pitti: well, i can watch the tests for an hour or two and if it looks bad get one of them to at least move it out of bit_tests?
<mwhudson> *big_tests?
<slangasek> yes, I have read the autopkgtest manual ;)
<slangasek> but oh, we're talking about the infrastructure, I would have to hunt for that
<pitti> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ProposedMigration/AutopkgtestInfrastructure FTR
<pitti> anyway, next runner will grab it
<pitti> I added  it to big_tests locally (not committed to https://git.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-release/+git/autopkgtest-cloud/tree/worker-config-production yet)
<mwhudson> next question!
<mwhudson> i want to SRU golang 1.6.2 to xenial unchanged
<pitti> mwhudson: http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.shtml#pkg-docker.io is now running in an m1.large instance
<pitti> and promptly hit the quota ceiling (but it will retry until it gets enough)
<mwhudson> is it considered best to just update the changelog of the yakkety version and upload that
<pitti> mwhudson: -backports?
<mwhudson> or put a new entry on top of the xenial version?
<mwhudson> pitti: no, -updates
<doko> pitti, any idea about the open-vm-tools failure?
<pitti> well, unless you can make sure this is 100% backwards compatible -- we shouldn't introduce new FTBFS with an SRUed toolchain
<slangasek> mwhudson: bear in mind that SRU requirements for 1.6.2 on top of 1.6.1, given that it would not be coinstallable, would be higher than for the previous golang-1.6 SRU -- ^^ what pitti says.  But in terms of changelogs... "Meh"
<mwhudson> pitti: golang upstream is super conservative about point releases
<pitti> doko: not from the logs, this needs some deeper investigation; not today any more though (from me)
<pitti> it's almost midnight and I'm still swamped in pings and new bug reports :)
<doko> hmm, open-vm-tools doesn't even have a debian/tests dir?
<pitti> mwhudson: purely the changelog issue, I'd add a new record with " * backport yakkety release" and append a ~16.04.1
<pitti> doko: no, it's the dkms autodep8 test
<doko> ahh
<pitti> mwhudson: aside from teh fact that yakkety has the same version than xenial
<doko> so then it's kernel module breakage on amd64
<doko> apw, ^^^
<mwhudson> pitti: append a new record to which changelog? :)
<pitti> mwhudson: well, golang's?
<mwhudson> pitti: i meant xenial's or yakkety's?
<mwhudson> oh and i should do trusty too
<pitti> mwhudson: do a new upload to yakkety with normal versioning, then do the SRU with adding a new record with ~16.04.1 and a backport note; or just change the existing yakkety changelog record accordingly, I don't think it's that important really
<mwhudson> pitti: ok
<mwhudson> pitti: thanks
<apw> doko. yep working on it ...
<pitti> mwhudson: oh, err:
<pitti>  golang | 2:1.6-1ubuntu4                 | yakkety                   | all
<pitti>  golang-1.6 | 1.6.2-0ubuntu2     | yakkety                 | source, all
<pitti> mwhudson: this is confusing
<mwhudson> waait
<mwhudson> golang should have been removed
<mwhudson> oh no, binaries
<mwhudson> i should have said golang-1.6 above sorry
<mwhudson> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/golang-1.6
<pitti> right, the other was golang-defaults, sorry
<pitti> mwhudson: no, m1.large didn't help, reverting the big_tests
<mwhudson> pitti: huh and :(
<hallyn> ...   so i have two libvirt trees, the only difference is http://paste.ubuntu.com/16120216/ .  in one warnings are treated as errors, in the other not
<mwhudson> i guess i should try to repro on ec2 or someting
<pitti> mwhudson: would also be interesting to repro it locally with qemu, and ssh into teh instance while the test is running
<mwhudson> yeah, or that
<pitti> mwhudson: if it's your only adt-run with qemu, it'll be port 22000 on localhost (ubuntu:ubuntu)
<mwhudson> oh yeah, i made an image when we were looking at juju
<nacc> hallyn: something with DEB_BUILDHOST?
<nacc> hallyn: don't see why that should matter, though
<nacc> hallyn: and nm, i see where it's defined now
<hallyn> nacc: yeah it's weird...
<hallyn> well i need to get the animals fed before they tear each other apart - bbl
<pitti> mwhudson: sorry, port 10022
<pitti> 22000 is my "run this VM" script
<pitti> mwhudson: running this now: adt-run --apt-pocket=proposed -U docker.io --- qemu /srv/vm/adt-yakkety-amd64-cloud.img
<mwhudson> pitti: oh ok
<mwhudson> i hadn't even gotten started really :)
<pitti> mwhudson: well, and the VM doesn't boot after dist-upgrading to -proposed :/
 * pitti re-runs without -U
<pitti> mwhudson: wow, the docker.io tests install the entire build toolchain
<mwhudson> they're pretty heavy, yeah
<pitti> mwhudson: wohoo, what are these tests doing??
<pitti> $ mount
<pitti> mount: failed to read mtab: No such file or directory
<pitti> there's no proper /proc any more, "mounts" is a dead symlink
<mwhudson> there's definitely a reason they have all the scary control flags they do
<pitti> mwhudson: I was going to check what's currently hanging locally with top, but that also just fails with "Error, do this: mount -t proc proc /proc" :)
<mwhudson> pitti: haha ok, i didn't realize that they were /that/ destructive
<pitti> Step 5 : RUN gcc -g -Wall -static userns.c -o /usr/bin/userns-test  && gcc -g -Wall -static ns.c -o /usr/bin/ns-test  && gcc -g -Wall -static acct.c -o /usr/bin/acct-test
<pitti>  ---> Running in e064dc8c3809
<pitti> Container command not found or does not exist.
<pitti> ./hack/make.sh: line 258: local: can only be used in a function
<pitti> it has hung here for several minutes now
<mwhudson> oh right
<pitti> nothing in dmesg
<mwhudson> my experience is that once you get that "local: can only be used in a function" message, the tests are dead
<pitti> anyway, if you can investigate this in local qemu, that'd be great -- really bedtime here, sorry
<mwhudson> pitti: but it didn't kill ssh?
<pitti> mwhudson: not yet, now
<mwhudson> pitti: sleep well?
<pitti> s/now/no/
<mwhudson> pitti: sleep well!, rather
<mwhudson> i'll try to poke with ssh
<pitti> mwhudson: but it didn't even get to running the tests that I saw in the log when that happened
<mwhudson> er qemu rather
<mwhudson> can't type this morning
<pitti> mwhudson: http://paste.ubuntu.com/16120559/
<pitti> mwhudson: that's how far I got with the local run
<pitti> I had two screenfuls more in the production log
<doko> why does a package ftbfs with a syntax error on one arch when it succeeds on all others? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cgal/4.8-3/+build/9639661
<doko> and forgot to say, it builds locally ...
<slangasek> doko: because it wants to assert not is fail, and it is fail
<slangasek> doko: did you try a straight retry?
<doko> two
<slangasek> fun
<doko> one more ...
<pitti> doko: your local mirror might not have new enough -proposed packages in sbuild?
<pitti> anyway, -EBEDTIME, really; /me waves
<sarnold> see you ina few hours :)
<doko> pitti, not using local mirrors for that reason
<slangasek> doko: are you building -B or -b?
<doko> slangasek, -b
<doko> failed again
<mwhudson> oops forgot to build check my golang upload :(
<doko> giving up on cgal for now ...
<wgrant> hallyn: I have git mirroring half done, but currently on hold due to some more important work.
<sbeattie> doko: static libs that need rebuilding for -fPIE: antlr, autogen, bglibs, binpac, gadap, i2util, libctl, orbit2, publib, pvm, unicon, zlib. I rebuilt them successfully in a ppa with yakkety-proposed enabled.
<sbeattie> doko: I'll have a few more, but I need to finish verifying that they build okay.
#ubuntu-devel 2016-04-29
<slangasek> sbeattie: should I go ahead and fire off no-change rebuilds for those, then?
<slangasek> sbeattie: (let's suppose "yes" and do it)
<hallyn> wgrant: cool, closer than i thought :)  thanks!  i can't wait.  i'm always on crappy links so pulling 300 mb just to push it is painful :)
<slangasek> sbeattie: (done)
<slangasek> sbeattie: (except for bglibs which somehow generated a broken .changes file, BRILLIANT)
<sarnold> slangasek: bglibs looks "special" https://lintian.debian.org/maintainer/pape@smarden.org.html#bglibs
<slangasek> yes, yes it is
<slangasek> maybe build-depending on that one is a good reason to remove a package instead of fixing it
<sarnold> it might be, it looks unloved for a while https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=544056
<ubottu> Debian bug 544056 in wnpp "RFA: bglibs -- BG Libraries Collection" [Normal,Open]
<lfaraone> infinity: belated thanks :)
<infinity> lfaraone: I don't know what I did, but you're welcome.
<infinity> pitti: Wow.  Why is systemd so effin' noisy about timers?
<infinity> pitti: None of that belongs in my ringbuffer.
<lfaraone> Hmm. Why do we still build .imgs for the server install CD, but not the desktop install CD?
<lfaraone> I feel, if anything, those should be swapped.
<infinity> lfaraone: server.img is a symlink to server.iso. :P
<infinity> It was a specific request to do so, it's not an extra image (despite the confusion)
<lfaraone> infinity: hm, ok. do we build actual images for anything?
<infinity> lfaraone: Define "images".
<infinity> They're all images.
<lfaraone> infinity: well, anything for which https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/FromImgFiles is helpful. I think no :P
<infinity> lfaraone: Seems that all those docs (including the ISO doc that links to) are pretty out of date.  Whee.
<infinity> lfaraone: To be clear, the ISOs we produce are all bootable, and can thus be written raw to a USB key via dd.
<infinity> lfaraone: So, all the docs seem to be many years crusty on that score.
<lfaraone> infinity: Figured. I was planning on rewriting it a bit, and include some steps about how to verify the SHA256SUM.gpg, since it took me a bit of effort to find out the right invocation myself.
<sbeattie> slangasek: yeah, in order to get it to be accepted in the ppa, I had to add 'Sections: libs' to the source section of the control file.
<cpaelzer> good morning
<ricotz> doko, hi :), https://launchpad.net/~ricotz/+archive/ubuntu/staging/+sourcepub/6377511/+listing-archive-extra
<pitti> infinity: timers> err, what? some details please? "ringbuffer" sounds like "dmesg", but there are no timer messages after booting
<pitti> Good morning
<pitti> infinity: I suppose some pile up over time when e. g. the apt timer has run a few times?
<infinity> pitti: Yeah, I have a ton of apt timer messages.
<infinity> pitti: I see zero reason to spam kmsg with that.
<pitti> infinity: can you please file a bug? the apt timer only runs every ~ 12 hours, so for sure there shouldn't be messages more often than that (unless there are other timers)
<pitti> and they are supposed to go to the journal, not to dmesg
<infinity> pitti: Sure, it's not often (though it adds up), but that's not really the point.  If we had a ton of timers all doing that, it would be ridiculous.
<infinity> pitti: Filing a bug.
<pitti> "systemctl list-timers" shows that the apt-daily timer ran 25 mins ago and systemd-tmpfiles-clean.timer 10 mins ago, still nothing in dmesg
<pitti> so, can't reproduce yet I'm afraid; let's see what your messages actually are
<infinity> pitti: It's the random adjust.  Sec.
<pitti> Apr 29 08:15:39 donald systemd[1]: apt-daily.timer: Adding 4h 5min 11.531683s random time.
<pitti> (in the journal indeed, but not in dmesg)
<infinity> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1576536
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1576536 in systemd (Ubuntu) "timer messages unnecessarily sent to /dev/kmsg" [Undecided,New]
<infinity> pitti: I have a ton in dmesg.
<pitti> infinity: ubuntu-bug please
<pitti> infinity: can you please do apport-collect then?
<pitti> (release, arch, JournalErrors.txt, etc.)
<infinity> pitti: apport-collecting.  Apparently, python-apport isn't installed by default anymore.
<pitti> kernel's command line etc.
<pitti> infinity: right, that fell victim to "py 3 only on the iso" some releases ago
<pitti> infinity: unfortunatley python3-launchpadlib still falls over too often, so apport-collect has to use py2 for now
<infinity> pitti: Oh.  So why doesn't apport-collect use python3-apport? :P
<infinity> Ahh.
<infinity> pitti: apport-collected.
<pitti> infinity: thanks; need to ponder that for a bit, I see nothing unusual on the log target or errors
<infinity> pitti: I suppose I could just blame mvo for pointlessly switching away from cron. :P
<pitti> infinity: I think his point was to smear out the time when the trigger hits, with the random delay
<infinity> pitti: Quite, yes, which the cronjob also does. :)
<infinity> (though not as well, admittedly)
<mvo> infinity: *cough* pointless *cough*
<pitti> I remember that mvo discussed this, but I forgot why the cron job wasn't sufficient any more
<mvo> infinity: you need to embrace this new tech, its awesome !
<pitti> mvo: oh, guten Morgen
<infinity> mvo: Can't make me.
<infinity> mvo: (And it does feel a bit pointless when you still have the compat cronjob for non-systemd systems)
<infinity> mvo: Anyhow, systemd being a big jerk to my logs isn't your fault. :)
<mvo> infinity: the big one is that we need more randomness for the start of the job and systemd gives it to us cheaply. with cron the ranodm delay delays other jobs. sure, we could have done it differently without systemd but it saves some extra work
<mvo> infinity: :P
<mvo> infinity: I won't disagree that the systemd timers seems to be not quite the same level as good old cron yet
<mvo> pitti: hey, guten morgen!
<infinity> mvo: Forking the delayed job in the background would let cron carry on, wouldn't it?
<infinity> mvo: (I agree that holding up cron for your delay is awful)
<Unit193> barry: FWIW, updated merge: https://launchpad.net/~unit193/+archive/ubuntu/staging/+sourcepub/6377589/+listing-archive-extra
<mvo> infinity: yeah, it could be done without systemd timers of course
<dholbach> pitti, I don't know why summit is ignoring you, but maybe you can rename https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-y-replace-upstart to convergence-1605-replace-upstart - just to see if that helps?
<pitti> dholbach: oh, we don't do the -series any more, just the -UOSdate? that's a bit strange
<pitti> dholbach: renamed
<dholbach> pitti, I have no idea
<dholbach> pitti, and mhall119 who's our local summit expert is on holidays
<dholbach> I just noticed that it hadn't been imported
<pitti> dholbach: so, let's try with convergence-y first, and if that still doesn't work, I'll rename it further to convergence-1605 ?
<pitti> how long do we need to wait until the next import run?
<dholbach> I have no idea
<dholbach> I'll watch the situation and let you know
<sbeattie> doko: looks like slang asek took care of the packages I mentioned earlier. Two additional packages needing rebuild are dpkg and python2.7.
<LocutusOfBorg> hi pitti can you please retry json-c autopkgtest against u1db in proposed? 13.10-6ubuntu1 or 13.10-6.2 is fine either way
<LocutusOfBorg> it was a bad autopkgtest I fixed yesterday
<LocutusOfBorg> AFAIK this will make the json-c transition look better :)
<sarnold> LocutusOfBorg: hmm, this thing says "13.10-6" http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_excuses.html#json-c
<LocutusOfBorg> yes, it is the -release version
<LocutusOfBorg> now proposed has 13.10-6ubuntu1 and upcoming 13.10-6.2 (dinstalling right now)
<LocutusOfBorg> both are fine
<LocutusOfBorg> oops my upload was called 13.10-6.1ubuntu1
<LocutusOfBorg> but I sync'd the same change half an hour ago
<elbrus> autopkgtesting; anybody here that knows how to get a package installed before the package to test?
 * elbrus tries to test cacti, but that depends on a mysql-server | mariabd-server (but cacti doesn't (need to) depend on it
<elbrus> )
<jtaylor> add it to the Depends in the tests/control?
<elbrus> jtaylor: it get's installed AFTER cacti (instead of before)
<elbrus> see: https://ci.debian.net/data/packages/unstable/amd64/c/cacti/20160428_043001.autopkgtest.log.gz
<elbrus> or to be more precise: setup after cacti setup
<jtaylor> urg, maybe add needs-root and install it yourself
<elbrus> jtaylor: is that allowed (e.g. do you have network/repository available)?
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg: running: http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running.shtml#pkg-u1db
<elbrus> so then you wouldn't need anything in Depends in tests/control
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg: the armhf one will still take a bit, I'll probably just hint it in
<pitti> (once the other arches succeed)
<jtaylor> if its not allowed the infrastructure should just ignore it
<pitti> elbrus: if cacti doesn't depend on mysql, then apt will randomly pick an order in which to configure them
<pitti> elbrus: so if cacti's postinst tries to configure mysql, it shuold get at least a recommends: mysql then, to force configuration order in apt?
<pitti> elbrus: I mean, this is an actual problem, not just a test artifact
<elbrus> pitti: but it depends on the client and theserver is normally remote
<LocutusOfBorg> thanks
<elbrus> so no recommends
<pitti> elbrus: then I guess the postinst needs to gracefully handle mysql not being available?
<LocutusOfBorg> if I understand correctly, once the autopkgtestsuite is green I can see what is missing on update_output, right?
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg: right
<LocutusOfBorg> because with no transition tracker I have difficulties in looking at what is wrong
<LocutusOfBorg> thanks
<elbrus> pitti: that is the case: dbconfig-common: cacti configure: noninteractive fail.
<elbrus> dbconfig-common: cacti configure: ignoring errors from here forwards
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg: we can add transition trackers
<LocutusOfBorg> pitti, I think just two or three packages are wrong, and just for some archs
<pitti> dpkg: error processing package cacti (--configure):
<LocutusOfBorg> not needed I gues
<pitti>  subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1
<pitti> not enough then apparently :)
<LocutusOfBorg> I fixed all the packages, the failures are related to boost and or fPIC stuff
<LocutusOfBorg> BTW whill anybody fix virtualbox/amd64 at the end? I'm not really sure about the fPIC stuff
<LocutusOfBorg> s/whill/will ENOCOFFEE
<tjaalton> doko: there seems to be an issue with openjdk-6-jre, which depends on tzdata-java which then is uninstallable. could jre drop the dependency on tzdata-java?
<tjaalton> this on enial
<tjaalton> +x
<seb128> doko, did you ask about gtk+ yesterday because you want 3.20? because we don't plan to update to that version yet (and maybe not this cycle because it might be too much work to fix theme and apps then)
<elbrus> pitti: granted, I made a mistake in my postinst in the latest cacti package for the noninteractive case, but that still leaves the package non-functional...
<elbrus> pitti: do you know it the order in the tests/control Depends field matters?
<pitti> elbrus: that's up to apt (it more or less gets tossed to apt as it is)
<pitti> elbrus: so, it could be
<pitti> elbrus: but still, this is a real bug, easier to just fix it than trying to hide it in the test control?
<elbrus> hmm, will try in my next upload than (albeit not robust I guess)
<pitti> elbrus: yeah, I don't think you can rely on the order there
<darkxst> seb128, hmm really? we need gtk+ 3.20 this cycle
<elbrus> pitti: I will fix the real but, but mysql-server should NOT be recommends or Depends as it is on a remote server (or at least allowed)
<seb128> darkxst, you are welcome to work on the update, just need the themes and apps to be fixed before landing
<pitti> elbrus: yeah, understood; I meant the bug in the postinst that it fails if mysql isn't available
<elbrus> pitti: sure, will fix that
<darkxst> seb128, which apps? most all of the GNOME ones are already fixed
<darkxst> I am not really familiar with the ubuntu theme though
<seb128> doko, darkxst, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gtk+3.0/+bug/1576576 in any case
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1576576 in gtk+3.0 (Ubuntu) "Update to 3.20" [Undecided,New]
<seb128> so nobody updates it by mistake :p
<seb128> darkxst, dunno, I didn't look at it at all, there was a blogpost on planet GNOME saying that gnumeric looks buggy, there are probably others
<seb128> darkxst, I expect the big part of the work to be to update the unity themes
<seb128> those are being and not maintained for years
<seb128> and we don't have anyone knowing theming well and/or available to work on that
<andrewsh> hmm
<andrewsh> every time I plug a USB smartcard reader, something (gnome-software?) triggers org.freedesktop.packagekit.trigger-offline-update
<andrewsh> can that be disabled?
<darkxst> seb128, firefox is a bit glitchy but imagine upstream will fix that
<seb128> andrewsh, our packagekit version doesn't support that I think so it shouldn't do anything?
<darkxst> seb128, its going to be hard to stage on a ppa
<seb128> darkxst, why?
<andrewsh> seb128: well, I get a notification "updates available"
<darkxst> I mean are we meant to go through every single gtk3 app in the archives
<seb128> andrewsh, that has nothing to do with trigger-offline-update though
<seb128> darkxst, no, just what is installed by default on the flavors I would expect
<andrewsh> seb128: possibly, yet gnome-software itself is being triggered
<seb128> unity/GNOME/xfce
<andrewsh> can *that* be disabled?
<seb128> andrewsh, no
<seb128> knowing about updates is a feature
<seb128> though it should be fixed to not overnotify
<seb128> like it should do it once a day max
<andrewsh> well, I have everything I wanted to update updated really
<seb128> you have updates you decided to not apply?
<andrewsh> well, yes, libfreetype6
<andrewsh> it breaks my fonts
<andrewsh> so I have re-applied the patch upstream didn't like
<seb128> andrewsh, anyway, please open a bug about gnome-software about it notifying you on card reader events, that's buggy
<andrewsh> from journalctl -f it seems it's triggered on any USB plug/unplug event
<andrewsh> that sounds useful for some situations, but not in this case
<seb128> we need to make it less spammy for sure
<seb128> but disabling it totally is not the solution
<andrewsh> one more question: something re-sets the keyboard layout to English on login (I have a custom layout), what can that be?
<andrewsh> I'd happily debug and write a patch for that myself, I don't know where to look
<andrewsh> whole Unity stuff looks a bit opaque to me
<seb128> andrewsh, the unity-settings-daemon keyboard plugin most likely
<andrewsh> full disclaimer: I have the default layout (I haven't configured anything in Unity), but run setxkbmap after login
<darkxst> seb128, we don't have the manpower to deal with 3 entire flavours
<andrewsh> and after that runs something resets it back
<darkxst> seb128, but without the gtk+ update, there is little point us even releasing a 16.10
<andrewsh> so if I run it manually it persists, but not if it's done from .xsessionrc or autostarts
<seb128> andrewsh, you can try to "gsettings set org.gnome.settings-daemon.plugins.keyboard active false" and see if it workarounds it for you
<andrewsh> thanks, let's see
<seb128> darkxst, yeah, I'm sorry
<seb128> unsure what to do
<seb128> but we can just update and say "screw unity and other non GNOME flavors"
<seb128> can't
<seb128> well maybe it's going to be fine and not that much
<seb128> but I've a feeling fixing themes isn't going to be trivial
<andrewsh> definitely not
 * andrewsh has an experience
<andrewsh> I ported Clearlooks-PhÃ©nix two times
<andrewsh> not willing to anymore
<darkxst> seb128, well xfce doesnt use gtk3 themes i didnt think, but unity themes will be plenty of work
<darkxst> seb128, there is no one left on the -desktop team, that understands the unity themes?
<seb128> not since larsu left
<seb128> also we don't have much resources to spend on that atm
<darkxst> damn
<seb128> the LTS is more important than the new updates
<Unit193> darkxst: Xfce doesn't entirely use GTK3, but it does use it and of course the themes have to support it.
<darkxst> seb128, atm the moment yes, but we have 1000's of users screaming at us if there in no update in 16.10
<darkxst> s/we/we will/
<seb128> :-/
<darkxst> we already get enough complaints at being one cycle behind, but I don't mind that myself
<darkxst> well really 5 months behind
<seb128> darkxst, did you try to log into an unity session with gtk 3.20 just to see how buggy the theme looks like?
<darkxst> seb128, no, because I know it will be buggy
<darkxst> what I do know is exactly how much effort is required to port unity to css nodes
<darkxst> s/do/don't/
<seb128> right, same here, I've no clue about css and how different the new gtk stuff is
<darkxst> and I wouldn't expect it to land in a broken state
<seb128> but I've a feeling it's not going to be trivial
<darkxst> but guess I was hoping someone would work on it
<seb128> we could maybe try to bounty/contract the work if we know of somebody who would be interested...
<seb128> I don't have any name in mind of whoever could be interested though
<darkxst> seb128, I only know one themer, and I can't remember how to spell his name!
<darkxst> though he maintains a few gtk themes
<seb128> darkxst, the name even spelt wrong can be useful :-)
<darkxst> seb128, https://launchpad.net/~satyajit-happy
<tjaalton> huh, xenial has openjdk-6 binaries but no source
<seb128> willcooke, ^
<seb128> darkxst, in any case we are trying to find a solution, but I expect the new gtk isn't going to be ready to land any time soon
<darkxst> he is the author of the very popular numix theme
<willcooke> I'll reach out to him and see if he could help
<seb128> thanks
<darkxst> seb128, soon is not a requirement, just this cycle (with enough time to land everything else!)
<seb128> right, I prefer to mention it early so we can try to find help to work on this
<seb128> because otherwise it's likely it's not going to happen
<darkxst> seb128, yes it needs a solution ;)
<Odd_Bloke> I'm looking at a xenial server installation, and it has backports enabled.  However, that line is commented out when it is added in live-build/auto/build (line 139).  What uncommented it?
<darkxst> willcooke, he (Satyajit) was involved with the Ubuntu GNOME teams for a while, but moved onto other project
<tjaalton> doko: nevermind, mirror being out of date
<willcooke> darkxst, thx.
<darkxst> anyway I just sat down from a 5hr drive home, discussing gtk+ can wait!
<willcooke> :)
<morphis> jibel, davmor2: can we land https://requests.ci-train.ubuntu.com/#/ticket/1256 ? failed automated sign off seems to be due to a runtime problem
<davmor2> morphis: that is a job for Mirv maybe or sil I don't think we touch it past testing it
<morphis> ok
<morphis> Mirv: ^^
<Mirv> morphis: done
<morphis> Mirv: awesome!
<LocutusOfBorg> can anybody please kill this with FIRE? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/1.13.2-0ubuntu22/+build/9658082
<LocutusOfBorg> ginggs, ^^^
<LocutusOfBorg> ok, somebody did it, thanks
<happyaron> it's still building
<happyaron>  [BUILDING] Currently building on z13-018   Build score:4010 (What's this?)   Started 1 minute ago
<LocutusOfBorg> it was cancelling, and ginggs retried it while posting here :)
<LocutusOfBorg> yep
<LocutusOfBorg> ta
<LocutusOfBorg> upstart, why you so sad?
<darkxst> LocutusOfBorg, because it always gets accused of being a Canonical NIH systemd init, even though it came first :p
<LocutusOfBorg> it doesn't explain why the combination upstart/s390x is so sad
<LocutusOfBorg> darkxst, did you manage to stop seeding xorg-legacy package from the gnome flavour? it would be nice to do it for yakkety
<darkxst> LocutusOfBorg, I can't seed virtualbox-dkms its in multiverse
<darkxst> LocutusOfBorg, code doesnt have feelings anyway!
<LocutusOfBorg> there is the kernel module in src:linux!
<LocutusOfBorg> you can use that
<darkxst> LocutusOfBorg, has it been updated?
<LocutusOfBorg> in -proposed
<LocutusOfBorg>  4.4.0-22.38
<darkxst> LocutusOfBorg, ok, remind me when it lands, and I will test and update seeds for yak
<LocutusOfBorg> ta
<LocutusOfBorg> you might already do some testing with the -proposed one, just to be sure ;)
<darkxst> LocutusOfBorg, not tonight, I just drove home 5 hrs through heavy rain ;(
<LocutusOfBorg> Hi, question probably for -release, but I'll ask here anyway. what should be done to remove src:libpng from yakkety?
<LocutusOfBorg> http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/transitions/html/libpng.html
<LocutusOfBorg> can we "demote" something in -proposed and remove it from release until stuff gets fixed?
<LocutusOfBorg> e.g. polybori needs an rm of armhf
<darkxst> LocutusOfBorg, that is a massive transition
<LocutusOfBorg> s/a massive/a finished massive/
<darkxst> how can it be finished if there is still broken stuff? anyway if broken stuff is in universe and unmaintained -release team can demote
<LocutusOfBorg> pcl is going to be fixed with vtk6 transition, polybory needs a single binary removed, gst-plugins-good0.10 why you still there? k3d I might fix but it is boost- related
<LocutusOfBorg> darkxst, finished because the broken stuff is "who cares" and broken in debian anyway
 * darkxst has been off in the mountains, mostly offline for the last week, but that seems like a good enough reason 
<LocutusOfBorg> I would prever removing 10 packages or demoting instead of having two libpng implementations, specially for stuff that isn't also part of stretch
<LocutusOfBorg> maybe I'll fix two or three packages and then request it
<darkxst> LocutusOfBorg, have the packages been removed from debian?
<LocutusOfBorg> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=822318
<ubottu> Debian bug 822318 in ftp.debian.org "RM: libpng -- RoQA; superseded by libpng1.6" [Normal,Open]
<LocutusOfBorg> gonna be
<cjwatson> we shouldn't remove libpng until it stops having rdeps
<LocutusOfBorg> fixing the fixable and then remove what is remaining
<darkxst> cjwatson, no, removing the rdeps I think is what LocutusOfBorg is talking about, thats fair game if they are gone from debian
<darkxst> libpng will disappear by itself when ready I assume
<LocutusOfBorg> yes indeed, we are doing this on debian
<cjwatson> sure, but maybe LocutusOfBorg needs to check rdeps before asking questions like "gst-plugins-good0.10 why you still there"
<LocutusOfBorg> but many of the blockers are armel and hurd
<LocutusOfBorg> so ubuntu should be easier
<cjwatson> I mean "reverse-depends src:gst-plugins-good0.10" answers that question immediately
<LocutusOfBorg> oh... I wasn't aware of reverse-deps
<cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg: I've removed polybori/armhf
<cjwatson> and while we can demote stuff to -proposed, I'd rather not do that for stuff with rdeps, it gets complicated
<LocutusOfBorg> ok, but reverse-dependencies of gst-plugins-good0.10 are out of debian testing and unstable
<LocutusOfBorg> the only one is plasma-mediacenter where it is a recommend
<LocutusOfBorg> what to do in this case? btw thanks for polybori
<cjwatson> IIRC there was a bug about farstream, it wasn't entirely trivial
<cjwatson> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/telepathy-qt5/+bug/1538772
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1538772 in telepathy-qt5 (Ubuntu) "Stop build-depending on libfarstream-0.1-dev and gstreamer 0.10" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<LocutusOfBorg> seems it is going to disappear from that bug
<LocutusOfBorg> wonderful
<cjwatson> doko: mind if I merge ffmpeg?
<cjwatson> that would clear out mplayer from that transition tracker, I think
<LocutusOfBorg> thanks cjwatson for doing it!
<LocutusOfBorg> cjwatson, yes
<LocutusOfBorg> I was wondering to do it, but thanks
 * LocutusOfBorg is fixing boost stuff
<TJ-> anyone know what package/process writes /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d/resume  originally?
<cjwatson> TJ-: base-installer / ubiquity
<TJ-> cjwatson: Ahhh! I've been trying to figure out what wrote an incorrect UUID that doesn't exist there!
<TJ-> cjwatson: is that file totally manually administered then? no tools to do it?
<cjwatson> TJ-: correct afaik
<TJ-> cjwatson: OK... I'm not going mad then :D Been searching all the .postinst and initramfs-tools hooks trying to figure out what wrote it :)
<LocutusOfBorg> btw xcftools on s390x <-- is that important? I don't have stuff/machines to fix that testsuite failure
<LocutusOfBorg> cjwatson, if you want to remove it :p
<cjwatson> not particularly with zero investigation
<LocutusOfBorg> -- 10x10+27+27 RGB-alpha Normal AE=AE
<LocutusOfBorg> +- 10x10+27+27 RGB-alpha Normal Ã=AE
<LocutusOfBorg> seems something locale-related
<cjwatson> probably related to recent change to C.UTF-8
<cjwatson> so should be fixed as that's not intrinsically s390xish
<cjwatson> it just happens that s390x has a newer buildd base system than the others so probably a slight difference in behaviour there
<LocutusOfBorg> sigh, I don't know how to fix UTF stuff :(
<andrewsh> lool: you haven't forwarded LP: #1290069 ;)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1290069 in fakeroot (Ubuntu) "Bad identification of getopt in /usr/bin/fakeroot-sysv with some translations" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1290069
<lool> andrewsh: I did actually! https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=758728
<ubottu> Debian bug 758728 in fakeroot "Use getopt -T to test for GNU getopt" [Minor,Open]
<andrewsh> actually you have, yes :)
<andrewsh> lool: I haven't checked the BTS, I just saw the patch not applied in Debian :)
<andrewsh> it's probably the time for an NMU
<andrewsh> lool: where does /etc/ld.so.conf.d/fakeroot-<multiarch-triplet>.conf file comes from?
<andrewsh> I can't find any mention of it in the package
<lool> andrewsh:         echo /usr/lib/$(DEB_HOST_MULTIARCH)/libfakeroot > debian/libfakeroot/etc/ld.so.conf.d/fakeroot-$(DEB_HOST_MULTIARCH).conf
<lool> andrewsh: in rules
<andrewsh> hmm
<andrewsh> somehow I missed that
<andrewsh> I'm basically trying to fix #636192 in pseudo
<doko> cjwatson, not at all
<doko> tjaalton, xenial doesn't have openjdk-6 anymore ...
<tjaalton> doko: yeah, and I noticed that dropping i386 from my mirror was a bad idea, apt stopped using it at all
<tjaalton> so the package lists on this machine were over a month old and still showed it
<doko> sbeattie, slangasek: dpkg and python2.7 uploaded
<doko> ginggs, postgis test failures on s390x and arm64, qgis build failures on ppc64el and powerpc
<ginggs> doko: thanks, will take a look
<ginggs> LocutusOfBorg: the qgis ftbfs is also in Debian, bug #822477
<ubottu> bug 705593 in virtualbox-ose (Ubuntu) "duplicate for #822477 package virtualbox-ose-dkms * failed to install/upgrade: virtualbox-ose kernel module failed to build (types.h:97:31: fatal error: linux/autoconf.h: No such file or directory)" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/705593
<ginggs> err, Debian bug #822477
<ubottu> Debian bug 822477 in qgis "qgis: FTBFS: error: request for member 'insert' in 'qm', which is of pointer type 'QMap" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/822477
<ginggs> yes
<LocutusOfBorg> ack
<LocutusOfBorg> ginggs, https://github.com/qgis/QGIS/commit/fc6559aa053317cda8ced657c3013a0d4c6549e9
<LocutusOfBorg> we got a patch
<stokachu> im getting an error regarding E: openstack: init.d-script-not-included-in-package etc/init.d/openstack, even though im only packaging a openstack.service systemd file
<stokachu> what am i missing?
<stokachu> i set dh $@ --with systemd also
<LocutusOfBorg> xnox, k3d FTBFS because of missing boost_system link, but a quick look seems to make me wonder about a bug in boost itself
<LocutusOfBorg> because it doesn't use directly system boost library
<barry> Unit193: any chance you can file a bug+patch over in debian?  it'd be nice now that we're resync'd not to continue to carry an ubuntu delta
<LocutusOfBorg> cjwatson, can I ask you to remove insighttookit from Ubuntu? vmtk on powerpc needs probably a removal, we removed every arch except amd64 and i386 for debian
<cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg: not now sorry, on leave this afternoon
<cjwatson> LocutusOfBorg: find another victim please :)
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg: insighttoolkit has built fine on all arches in the current version
<LocutusOfBorg> pitti, this doesn't mean it shouldn't be killed with fire :)
<LocutusOfBorg> we are switching to insighttoolkit4 available since years
<pitti> same for vmtk
<LocutusOfBorg> also vtk->vtk6
<LocutusOfBorg> yes, but insighttookit has issues that can't be backported from itk4
<seb128> dholbach, https://blueprints.launchpad.net/sprints/uos-1605 seems pretty empty, am I looking at the wrong place?
<LocutusOfBorg> it needs to go, even if itk4 only builds in two archs (because upstream stopped supporting everything else)
<LocutusOfBorg> so, I'll probably ask some powerpc removal (if nobody fixes insighttoolkit4 there)
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg: ah, it was just removed from sid, but https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/insighttoolkit didn't catch up with that yet?
<dholbach> seb128, a lot of people decided to just create meetings in summit instead
<cjwatson> oh if it was only just removed then you don't need to ask
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg: so that should turn up in process-removals
<dholbach> seb128, for the sessions where they felt they don't need a blueprint
<cjwatson> process-removals will catch up with it at some point
<dholbach> seb128, http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1605/create_meeting/
<LocutusOfBorg> really? that is a nice feature!
<cjwatson> file a bug if you want vmtk/powerpc removed
<seb128> dholbach, k, is submit having them all or is there unscheduled ones?
<LocutusOfBorg> cjwatson, I'll file one probably when also vtk gets removed
<cjwatson> process-removals is only semi-automatic (i.e. somebody has to run it and think about its output) but it deals with a lot of this stuff
<pitti> dholbach: so https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/convergence-y-replace-upstart still doesn't appear on the summit page; expected, or does it need to be renamed furhter?
<LocutusOfBorg> lets wait some more time, I guess it is too early
<LocutusOfBorg> I can provide some more stuff to remove in a single shot
<cjwatson> if stuff is removed from Debian then there's no need to ask unless it's for some reason especially urgent or if it doesn't seem to be removed from Ubuntu within a week or two
<LocutusOfBorg> urgency for me is now+4 months :)
<cjwatson> which probably means that either (a) AAs are slacking and not dealing with removals or (b) there's something like rdeps holding it in
<dholbach> pitti, ah no, it's there - I just need to put it on the schedule
<pitti> dholbach: awesome, thanks; can you make it not Tuesday, so that I've got some time to prepare on the sprint?
<dholbach> yep
<pitti> I also have some meetings on Tue
<pitti> cheers
 * pitti hugs dholbach
<dholbach> put it on for Wed
<pitti> splendid, that's 11:00 in Austin
<pitti> seb128: ^ but that's already 20:00 CEST, is that still ok for you?
<pitti> sorry, no, it's 13:00 in Austin
<pitti> time zones are hard
<seb128> pitti, does it still make it 20CEST? or +2 to 22 as well?
<pitti> seb128: no, it's 18:00 UTC
<pitti> seb128: earlier is fine for me, if you want it earlier
<seb128> one hour earlier would be better
<pitti> although Wed is already pretty full on http://summit.ubuntu.com/uos-1605/track/convergence/
<seb128> I've tennis on wed evening
<seb128> well I guess I can skip for once
<pitti> nah
<pitti> dholbach: how much beer does it cost us to move it to Thu morning?
<pitti> seb128: le sport est trÃ¨s important :-)
<seb128> :-)
<smoser> pitti, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cloud-init/+bug/1575572
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1575572 in init-system-helpers (Ubuntu) "apache2 fails to start if installed via cloud config (on Xenial)" [High,In progress]
<pitti> smoser: o/
<smoser> does your intended fix support proper systemd jobs ?
<pitti> smoser: working on it
<smoser> that wasnt clear to me.
<pitti> smoser: it's not really related to init.d vs. units
<smoser> right.
<pitti> smoser: init.d scripts get "converted" to units by a generator, so on that level they all look the same
<smoser> ok.
<pitti> smoser: i. e. in short: "yes"
<pitti> smoser: well-spotted bogus runlevel failure check, I'm just committing the fix for that
<dholbach> pitti, done
<smoser> that script is kind of scary
<pitti> dholbach: double-hug
<dholbach> :-)
<pitti> smoser: amen :(
<smoser> i'm sort of afraid to *fix* the check for failure
<pitti> smoser: one can feel the 15 years of ad-hoc development :/
<pitti> smoser: that part will get short-circuited under systemd anyway, I tested it under sysvinit; still need to test it under upstart
<pitti> smoser: but it shoudln't actually have much net effect: even though *that* test failed, the remainder of the code would just run with RL=unknown, which would make it bail out with 102 as well in verifyrclink()
<pitti> oh, actually not
<pitti> it just bails on bad symlinks, not on nonexisting ones
<pitti> smoser: anyway, I think I won't SRU that fix, that's just for unstable/yakkety
<smoser> ok.
<smoser> thank you pitti
<pitti> smoser: the one important for SRU is to provide a proper runlevel under systemd while it's not booted yet
<pitti> smoser: unless you object
<smoser> so cloud-init wills til have issues starting services that have and expect dependencies.
<pitti> smoser: but as you say, I'd rather not change this more than necessary, it's scary
<smoser> wills till == will still
<pitti> right; I tried to explain in the bug, that's a bit subtle
<smoser> yeah.
<smoser> that still sucks. but for now this is a good fix.
<pitti> it's not actually that different from sysvinit
<smoser> right.
<pitti> i. e. starting a service with invoke-rc.d under sysvinit had no concept of dependencies in the first place
<smoser> see my last comment there, this issue can be exposed without cloud-init very easily.
<pitti> smoser: indeed, I ran into it myself a week or two ago
<smoser> :)
<pitti> smoser: so, I don't think the dependency thing is a very big deal, but I wanted to note it for completenless
<pitti> smoser: maybe we can haul the whole thing until after the boot has done
<pitti> smoser: but that sounds like a discussion for next week, and it desperately needs beer involved
<smoser> yeah.
<pitti> s/has done/has finished/, argh grammar, TGIF
<smoser> what is neat is that you get to run stuff "after" boot without being part of boot
<smoser> becauase if you're part of boot, then you are screwed.
<smoser> which seems kind of broken
<pitti> smoser: "you get" -> "you want it to"? or "there is some trick to do it"?
<smoser> you get -> you have to
<pitti> smoser: my trick was to spawn a shell script in the background in runcommand
<pitti> and in that script, wait until the sysetm is booted
<pitti> which was a cheap 10-second hack, if we want to provide this in cloud-init, we'd do that with a bit more style of course
<smoser> yeah. how elegant :)
<pitti> like, we'd just start (non-blocking) cloud-init-blah during boot, so that it runs after the boot sequence
<pitti> anyway, let's fix this thing first
<smoser> i'm gonna remove the cloud-init task from this
<smoser> i'll open anotehr bug for "fully support package installation in systemd"
<pitti> smoser: yep, seems fair
<smoser> done. https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1576692
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1576692 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "fully support package installation in systemd" [Medium,Confirmed]
<doko> pitti, please let gcc-6 migrate, not yet used for builds
<pitti> doko: hintifiziert
<doko> gstreamer0.10 gone \o/
<pitti> yay
<pitti> just about two weeks too late :)
<ogra_> just in time for 16.06 ;)
<doko> pitti, I only see now https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/telepathy-qt/+bug/1538772 ...
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1538772 in telepathy-qt5 (Ubuntu) "Stop build-depending on libfarstream-0.1-dev and gstreamer 0.10" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<doko> both the telepathy-qt and telepathy-qt5 packages were somehow unmaintained in Ubuntu, so I took the Debian one
<pitti> doko: yeah, that seems fine; the remaining delta in xenial was
<pitti>   * debian/control: Change libssl1.0.2 build dependency to libssl-dev (in
<pitti>     Ubuntnu the library is called libssl1.0.0).
<doko> ginggs, the pcl ftbfs is now a boost related one
<doko> ahh, crap, wrong changelog entries for the gdal transition ...
<ginggs> doko: i thought so too, but pcl and yade both build on boost1.60 and vtk6 built in xenial
<seb128> doko, pitti, isn't telepathy-qt5 used by ubuntu-touch?
<doko> seb128, doesn't have a touch version number
<seb128> right, they use packages from the archive
<seb128> they don't fork everything
<doko> I would call a separate source a fork
<seb128> I don't understand what you mean
<seb128> they don't use a separate source
<seb128> you delete it from the main archive it seems?
<doko> ugh,
<doko>   * Renaming source package until upstream supports building both Qt4 and Qt5
<doko>     versions from the same source (and with Qt5 final)
<doko> so looks like I need to re-add these to the telepathy-qt package :-/
<doko> next week
<seb128> doko, yes please
<siretart> mvo: I've uploaded apt-btrfs-snapshot, but it FTBFS on the launchpad builders: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt-btrfs-snapshot/3.5/+build/9658733 - I also cannot reproduce that failure in my yakkety lxd machine, it builds just fine there.
<siretart> mvo: do you have cycles to look at it? if not, I'm inclined to disable the test
<mvo> siretart: ok, I have a look
<mvo> siretart: silly question, did you commit the changes anywhere? I am fine merging them via debdiff, just double checking
<siretart> mvo: yes, I've uploaded it to lp:~siretart/apt-btrfs-snapshot/yakkety, and proposed that branch for merging into lp:apt-btrfs-snapshot/trunk, you should have received an email requesting a code-review
<mvo> siretart: \o/ thank you
<doko> seb128, there are no patches left
<seb128> doko, ok, good then, thanks for checking :-)
<doko> seb128, well, but then we did had to keep it for xenial ... and gst0.10 :-/
<pitti> doko: glibc FTBFS in yakkety on amd64: https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-yakkety/yakkety/amd64/g/glibc/20160429_080634@/log.gz
<pitti> doko: "__stack_chk_fail_local' isn't defined" sounds weird -- did that change in the new gcc-5?
<pitti> I guess I can ignore that for the new libselinux
<pitti> smoser: I have a fix now, followed up to the bug
<doko> pitti, please re-run with the currently rebuilding gcc-5, as apw noted, it had issues turning off pie
<pitti> doko: I see, thanks
<doko> Laney, update-output-helper needs an update, no .bz2 files anymore
<pitti> LocutusOfBorg: http://people.canonical.com/~ubuntu-archive/proposed-migration/update_output.txt has json-c FYI
<LocutusOfBorg> thanks!
<LocutusOfBorg> we have a tracker now
<LocutusOfBorg> and doko just fixed the ben file
<LocutusOfBorg> so I'll wait
<pitti> ah, cool
<infinity> LocutusOfBorg: I fixed it a little harder (to match Debian's), but maybe that wasn't necessary.
 * infinity shrugs.
<LocutusOfBorg> who knows? :)
<pitti> tedg, Laney: can one of you please pull https://code.launchpad.net/~pitti/indicator-session/dep-fix into lp:indicator-session? the branch can't be pushed by core-dev (can you please fix that too?)
<pitti> (already uploaded)
<infinity> pitti: Did something Provides: systemd-services in xenial?  I'm assuming yes, or that would have been completely broken.
<pitti> infinity: yes, C:/R:/P:
<pitti> but I dropped that now that the LTS is out of the door
<infinity> Ah-ha.
<pitti> we've been dragging that along for 3 cycles or so
<tedg> pitti: Sure, I'll review it and we can get it into the train?
<pitti> tedg: it's already uploaded to yakkety
<tedg> Yeah, we'll try to keep the vivid phone overlay and everything in sync.
<pitti> I just usually push the tag and release commit after dput succeeds (a habit)
<infinity> tedg: No need to be in sync for this, it can just go out the next time someone pushes something else on top.
<pitti> tedg: this commit isn't relevant for vivid, so it's not urgent at all to land that in vivid (it can be dragged along with the next overlay landing though)
<tedg> Yup
<pitti> thanks
<pitti> haha
<pitti> https://code.launchpad.net/~seb128/indicator-session/correct-systemd-depends/+merge/285454
<pitti> sorry seb128
<pitti> apparently that didn't land for two months :/
<pitti> but it's equivalent, so commit whichever you prefer :)
 * pitti waves a good weekend to everyone, time to pack; see some of you next week in Austin!
<infinity> pitti: See you soon!
<LocutusOfBorg> have a nice trip
<Unit193> balkamos: FWIW, I did poke jelmer a couple times, he's aware of the MP and even remarked rwilber commented on it (months ago.)
<slangasek> cjwatson: hi, do you have any thoughts on bug #1576353?
<ubottu> bug 1576353 in openssh (Ubuntu) "install openssh-server by default, prompt for enabling it on server iso install" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1576353
<Michal_> Hello, I installed ubuntu 16.04 and then I want install armhf in ubuntu sdk with error. Is it any bug?
<nacc> bzoltan_: --^ ?
<nacc> Michal_: what was the error?
<smoser> infinity, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sbuild/+bug/1566590
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1566590 in sbuild (Ubuntu) "s390x environment is weird" [Undecided,Fix released]
<bzoltan_> Michal_: yes, and I have a fix for you :)
<smoser> you made that change there. which is causing some of my unit tests to fail as any invocation of bash in my wily sbuild environment spews complaints about C.UTF-8
<smoser> how do i fix that ?
<bzoltan_> Michal_:  Two fixes actually... the simplest is to install ubuntu-sdk-api-15.04-armhf package and profit
<Michal_> So you mean install via terminal?
<Michal_> ANd will function maintance?
<bzoltan_> Michal_: yes, sudo apt-get install ubuntu-sdk-api-15.04-armhf
<bzoltan_> Michal_:  it will produce a brand new and not broken click chroot for you what should work
<bzoltan_> Michal_:  please ping me if it does not
<Michal_> Thanks, I let you know if any trouble.
<smoser> anyone else who my have seen this. i dont know how, but i had a libc-bin at version 2.22-0ubuntu1 in my schroot. which does not appear to have existed anywhere. must have gone into proposed at some point i guess.
<smoser> vbug 1497473 shows even related errors to it. i guess my schroot just got it and then i was stuck.
<infinity> smoser: Fixed by making your chroot libc6/libc-bin consistent, I'm guessing?
<smoser> i just re-created the schroot
<smoser> so that thign got into -proposed i guess?
<infinity> smoser: It was briefly in wily-proposed, yes, though odd that you upgraded only half of it.
<infinity> smoser: Since libc6 and libc-bin really try to be in sync.
 * infinity shrugs.
<smoser> oh. i dsidnt look at libc, i dont knwo the version of it.
<smoser> i'm sure an upgrade just happened via a nightly schroot-update
<infinity> smoser: Oh, there was another bug in libc in that version (which was why it was pulled from proposed).
<infinity> smoser: So, yeah.  It was probably in sync.
<infinity> smoser: FWIW, my updates of source: chroots *don't* use post-release pockets for this (and other reasons).
<infinity> smoser: My base chroots are release-only.
<infinity> smoser: Anyhow, glad it was just the buggy libc from yesteryear and I don't have to panic. :)
<smoser> yeah.
<smoser> how would i debug why ${python3:Depends} is not doing what i think it should
<smoser> specifically in curtin
<smoser> i dont seem to get any of the python dependencies that are used
<smoser> they're defined in build depends. simple ones like python3-yaml and it does 'import yaml' but the python3-curtin does not pick up a python3-yaml dependency
<slangasek> smoser: I don't believe that python3:Depends handles modules, only the interpreter dependencies; but barry would know
<smoser> https://wiki.debian.org/Python/LibraryStyleGuide sure acts like it should
<slangasek> smoser: "dh_python2 and dh_python3 will correctly fill in the installation dependencies (via ${python:Depends} and ${python3:Depends} respectively" - I think that's just badly communicated
<infinity> I think it's meant to yank deps from setup.py/requirements.txt or some such.
<slangasek> infinity: not that I've ever heard of.
<smoser> well, its reading it from somewhere.
<smoser> look at cloud-init. in depends i list only python3-requests (due to the versioned depends)
<smoser> and it picks up may more
<slangasek> fancy
<slangasek> smoser: are you using pybuild in curtin?
<slangasek> you are not
<slangasek> and you are in cloud-init
<slangasek> smoser: so this is bound to be pybuild-provided fanciness
<smoser> ah. buildsystem pybuild
<smoser> hm.
<hallyn> ok so build-deps for main pkgs can now be in universe - that includes packages with tools (say dtrace), not just library packages?  long as the tool is not required on install?
<infinity> hallyn: Yes.  Really, it's just for tools.
<infinity> hallyn: Since biuld-depending on a tool doesn't imply a runtime dep.  Build-depending on libfoo-dev will result in a runtime dep of libfoo if you actually use it, so it would have to be in main.
<hallyn> thanks
<slangasek> infinity: which means we're also now one change away from being able to have debconf in sync, too ;)
<infinity> slangasek: I saw that, yeah.
<infinity> slangasek: Colin did have to do a zero-hour fix to germinate and source CD building because of this, too.  Fun times.
<infinity> slangasek: (Added an option to ignore seed follo-build-dep prefs, and then used it in source CD gen, so source CDs are GPL compliant)
<slangasek> ah :)
<infinity> Which started with a "hey, why are the source CDs so small this time?"
<infinity> And some head-scratching. :P
<nacc> so, i just noticed that http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.xenial/view/head:/samba-server referes to a package that doesn't exist (libpam-smbpass)
<nacc> is there a good way to fix that, given xenial has been published?
<nacc> i'm also not clear on the impact of that
<infinity> nacc: The impact is 0.
<nacc> infinity: ok :)
<infinity> nacc: germinate skips packages that don't exist in the archive.
<slangasek> nacc: we can update the seed, feel free to send an MP and be sure to also push to ubuntu.yakkety at the same time; but what infinity says
<infinity> (Still worth cleaning up the cruft, but it doesn't hurt anything to be there)
<nacc> and i think the replacement, libpam-winbind, is getting installed by default, but i guess it's coming in via deps
<nacc> infinity: slangasek: ack, thanks!
<infinity> I don't see anything pulling in libpam-winbind.
<barry> slangasek, smoser what's the question? :)
<infinity> ie: it's not in any tasks.
<infinity> And has no rdeps.
<nacc> infinity: hrm, i did a `apt-get install samba-server^` and it got installed, let me see if i can figure out why
<nacc> infinity: oh "suggested", i just misread the output
<smoser> well, i expected dh_python to fill in  ${python:Depends} with any thing that was used in my Build-Depends line
<nacc> so samba-server may be not fully functional (or at least equivalent to trusty) in xenial?
<smoser> and it seems it does at least to some affect if you use pybuild
<infinity> nacc: libpam-winbind is for client auth, it shouldn't affect functionality of the machine as a samba server.
<infinity> nacc: But that was true of the previous pam module too.  So not sure why it was in the task.
<nacc> infinity: yeah, i just meant to match what was there before
<barry> smoser: no, it won't fill in ${python:Depends} from Build-Depends
<infinity> nacc: I don't think there's a reasonable upgrade path anyway, so it's a bit "meh" either way.
<smoser> barry, well it does *something*
<smoser> what does it do ?
<smoser> (in cloud-init it definitely expands that to include some additional things)
<slangasek> doko, apw: I caught sight of discussion of dkms in yakkety but didn't grok what the problem was; what needs to happen to un-break http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/packages/f/flashcache/yakkety/amd64/ ?
<nacc> infinity: yeah, reading the description, it seems like libpam shouldn't be necessary at all and the server guide section for it doesn't actually mention it, so i think we should just remove it
<barry> smoser: it attempts to decipher run-time dependencies from setup.py/requirements.txt and translate them into debian package names
<nacc> infinity: ack, maybe i should ask you to update the samba serverguid section :) there's a lot of references to libpam-smbpass and i'm not finding a good guide anywhere for getting a corresponding setup to libpam-smbpass
<slangasek> infinity, nacc: samba is happier when its users are real unix users rather than some internal virtual representation; and users are happier when their password is their password instead of having one for Unix things and one for fileshares; I believe this was the argument for the pam module being in, so that password changes DTRT
<infinity> slangasek: Does pam_winbind DTRT locally out of the box?
<infinity> For some value of TRT.
<slangasek> the only difference between libpam-smbpass and libpam-winbind is that libpam-smbpass would munge the password database files on disk directly, and libpam-winbind talks to the winbind service over socket
<slangasek> infinity: I haven't checked lately, but it /should/...
<nacc> ok, so i'd be safe to replace smbpass with winbind in the documentation and seed (given that there are no configuration steps for libpam-smbpass either)
<infinity> Ahh, then perhaps it indeed has a place in the task.
<nacc> we'd be "as broken" as it is now, at least :)
<nacc> (the documentation)
<infinity> Note that the lack of seeding means it's in universe currently.
<infinity> And you won't be magically fixing that in xenial until there's an SRU that we can move around.
<slangasek> same source though, so no practical impact on security support
<smoser> barry, and it only does that with pybuild. right ?
<nacc> ok, so if i understood the above correctly, i'll 1) update xenial and yakkety samba-server to libpam-winbind 2) file an SRU for MIR of libpam-winbind? 3) update the serverguide documentation references to libpam-winbind
<smoser> and if i add --buildsystem=pybuild then my tests fail right now when they try to access some files that are not installed
<barry> smoser: well, dh_python2 and dh_python3.  i know it's kind of confusing, but it's really those two that manage ${python:Depends} and ${python3:Depends}, not pybuild
<barry> smoser: all three have manpages which should provide some help
<smoser> well, curint uses dh_python2 and dh_python3. but not --build-system=pybuild
<smoser> and it as a requirements.txt and setup.py
<smoser> but i dont get any thing in dependencies.
<barry> hmm
<barry> smoser: you might try to add an override_dh_python2 and pass in --verbose
<barry> (similarly for 3)
<barry> e.g.
<slangasek> nacc: libpam-winbind is built from samba source; no MIR required / meaningful
<barry> override_dh_python3:
<barry>     dh_python3 --verbose
<nacc> slangasek: ah right
<hallyn> smb: around?
<infinity> nacc: No MIR required, but we can't republish the release pocket, so for libpam-winbind to move to main, it needs to be in updates, that's all.
<barry> i think if it used pybuild and you `export PYBUILD_VERBOSE=1` it would do that automatically, but as you say, it's not using pybuild
<infinity> nacc: Until that happens, the seed change won't do anything, because germinate won't find the package.
<infinity> (But feel free to update the seed first)
<nacc> infinity: right, maybe i'm being dense or friday, but does that just mean until we do an update to the package?
<barry> smoser: another thing to remember is that python package names (as you'd find in setup.py) are not the same as debian package names
<infinity> nacc: And none of this will work from the server ISO until .1, because the server ISO has its own idea of tasks, based on the packages in the /pool/ on the ISO.
<barry> smoser: often they can be guessed (e.g. prepend python3-) and i think dh_python{2,3} have a set of overrides, but sometimes they won't be guessable
<smoser> yeah.
<smoser> i had previously thought it did something more complex
<smoser> and looked at the imports and saw they came from installed packagse
<smoser> and got the package names
<barry> nope, nothing so fancy ;)
<nacc> slangasek: infinity: thank you both, as usual!
<smoser> barry, so.. --requires=requirements.txt
<smoser> (default is requires.txt). not sure how it wrks in cloud-init
<barry> smoser: does that work?
<smoser>  Depends: curl | wget, curtin-common (= 0.1.0~bzr380-0ubuntu1), util-linux (>= 2.20.1-1ubuntu3), python3-oauthlib, python3-pbr, python3-urllib3, python3-yaml, python3:any (>= 3.3.2-2~)
<smoser> yeah.
<barry> cool
<smoser> and it must get it in cloud-init because it has a install_requires argument to setuptools.setup
<barry> smoser: almost certainly.  dh_py invokes the egg build command and then digs it out of there
<infinity> smoser: That util-linux dep looks obsolete, while you're in there. :P
<smoser> infinity, as in dont need to specify it becauase its essential ?
<infinity> smoser: Right, only need to if you need a version, and that version is precise's.
<pitti> PSA: I have to rebuild http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com (this only affects the web presentation, not the test machinery and proposed-migration)
<pitti> this will take several hours, I hope not too many people need it on Friday evening/Saturday, sorry about that
<slangasek> pitti: well, there goes my afternoon's entertainment!
<hallyn> is there a way to ask getent for only the groupnumber, or do i have to cut/awk the output?
<hallyn> well cut is in coreutils so i guess no biggie
<LocutusOfBorg> upstart, you take two minutes to build
<LocutusOfBorg> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/upstart/1.13.2-0ubuntu22/+build/9658082
<LocutusOfBorg> why 12 hours without doing anything
<LocutusOfBorg> and not being killed?
<LocutusOfBorg> cjwatson, ^^^ I would like to have a log, but seems impossible
<sarnold> and also: why do we still have it in yak?
<Unit193> sarnold: User sessions, indicators seem to use it somehow.
<slangasek> yes, your client user session is still upstart; as well as your phone's init
<Unit193> I don't have a phone running Ubuntu. :3
<ogra_> Definitely something you should fix ;)
<slangasek> LocutusOfBorg: this might be what you're after. http://paste.ubuntu.com/16136680/
<LocutusOfBorg> thanks :(
<slangasek> mmm not the only failing test, though; I guess I'll rerun to grab a full log in a minute
<LocutusOfBorg> I'm not sure I want to fix upstart, and wasting time on it
<slangasek> also, I'm not opposed to dropping the upstart binaries on s390x to unblock that transition
<LocutusOfBorg> slangasek, ^^ that one <3
<LocutusOfBorg> if it is used only for phone... who cares about s390x?
<slangasek> so... that's interesting.  there are definitely test failures, but the build succeeded.
<LocutusOfBorg> the problem might be that s390x has an updated toolchain, so it might become an issue also on other architectures
<LocutusOfBorg> oh...
<slangasek> LocutusOfBorg: it's not only phone.  it's also Ubuntu desktop, which is also irrelevant for s390x; and xfce4-indicator-plugin for some reason
<slangasek> no, the toolchain isn't updated separately on different archs
<Unit193> slangasek: So the indicators start, it emits the signal.
<LocutusOfBorg> slangasek, this is something mentioned here some hours ago
<slangasek> there is a new gcc-5 in yakkety-proposed, but it's present on all archs, as shown in e.g. this successful log. https://launchpadlibrarian.net/257148409/buildlog_ubuntu-yakkety-amd64.upstart_1.13.2-0ubuntu23_BUILDING.txt.gz
<LocutusOfBorg> slangasek, http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2016/04/29/%23ubuntu-devel.txt
<LocutusOfBorg> 10:34
<LocutusOfBorg> newer "buildd base system"
<LocutusOfBorg> bad me, but the result should be the same right?
<slangasek> I certainly wouldn't expect any of these test failures to be utf8 related, no
<Unit193> LocutusOfBorg: You can link to it directly, just s/.txt/.html#t10:34/
<LocutusOfBorg> slangasek, I don't know what has been updated in buildd system, so it might be related to updates, even if not utf8 related
 * LocutusOfBorg is wild guessing, because he feels blind about this
<slangasek> well, the aforementioned test failure is actually caused by me trying to run the build as root and is not related to the failure on the buildd
<slangasek> trying a better reproducer now
<cyphermox> cjwatson: mind if I merge ndisc6?
 * LocutusOfBorg accoring to backlog he is AFK
<cyphermox> LocutusOfBorg: I kind of expected it because of the time; he will answer when he's back
<slangasek> LocutusOfBorg: ok, these are the test failures I get when testing right. http://paste.ubuntu.com/16137229/
#ubuntu-devel 2016-04-30
<doko> slangasek, the problem was that -fPIE couldn't be turned off in some situations. See https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=70192. Strange that this didn't turn up during testing ...
<ubottu> gcc.gnu.org bug 70192 in driver "-fno-pic doesn't work with --enable-default-pie" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]
<slangasek> doko: hmm, what problem is that?
<slangasek> missing context
<doko> the kernel can't build with pie, so you have to turn it off
<slangasek> ah, that one
<doko> and every kernel module
<slangasek> not automatable somehow?
<slangasek> like, in the dkms package instead of fixing each module?
<doko> well, lets fix the kernel first
<doko> I could turn it off if I see some other options, like -ffreestanding, or -nostdlib. but I'm unsure how much I'll break which such automated guessing
<slangasek> LocutusOfBorg: fyi, LP: #1576914.  Since I'm pretty sure this is a regression in a core package, I'm not inclined to remove the upstart binaries to work around it.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1576914 in upstart (Ubuntu) "upstart,libnih ftbfs on s390x with linux 4.4.0-21.37" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1576914
<doko> slangasek, this could be automated: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dpkg/+bug/1576915
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1576915 in dpkg (Ubuntu) "dpkg-buildflags should explicitly pass -fno-PIE and -no-pie if DEB_BUILD_HARDENING_PIE=0 is set" [Undecided,New]
<slangasek> doko: are those options defined somewhere, or are you proposing new options that don't currently exist in Debian?
<doko> slangasek, well, DEB_BUILD_HARDENING_PIE seems to be documented. we should just adjust these to work when pie is the default
<slangasek> the standard option I know about is DEB_BUILD_{MAINT_,}OPTIONS=hardening=-pie,-bindnow
<slangasek> doko: documented where?
<doko> hmm, I saw this in virtualbox ...
<doko> LocutusOfBorg, ^^^
<slangasek> https://wiki.debian.org/Hardening documents DEB_BUILD_HARDENING_PIE, but that's hardening-wrapper, which is obsolete
<doko> ahh
<doko> slangasek, but in any case, =hardening=-pie should result in no pie flags
 * slangasek nods
<doko> and I realize there is no way to turn off the -z now default :-/
<slangasek> doko: wouldn't that be -z lazy?
<doko> ohh, was looking for nonow
<slangasek> -z someothertime ;)
<doko> one more thing for the gcc specs :-/
<doko> LocutusOfBorg, please teach virtualbox to pass the appropriate no pie flags
<LocutusOfBorg> doko, ack
<LocutusOfBorg> thanks
<bigon> is anybody taking care of the selinux userspace in ubuntu (even if you are a apparmor shop?)
<LocutusOfBorg> doko, it doesn't work
<LocutusOfBorg> I don't have any fPIC fpic fpie fPIE references in the build log
<LocutusOfBorg> but it fails anyway
<LocutusOfBorg> trying -pic,-pie,-bindnow
<cjwatson> cyphermox: ndisc6> go for it
<abhinav--> seeing this error in dmesg when trying to boot from 16.04 live USB traps: compiz[3446] trap invalid opcode ip:7fb11003e0e9 sp:7ffc1d32ec20 error:0
<abhinav--> is this a known bug with?
<doko> gdal, json-c, cpl, cfitsio, ffmpeg, gsoap, libgetdata are now all entangled transitions
<showaz> http://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Main/SecurityNotice#April_2016_NTP_4_2_8p7_Security
<cjwatson> doko: at least the ffmpeg transition seems to be going relatively smoothly so far.  I filed a Debian bug about the failing ffmpeg autopkgtest
<cjwatson> will look at freshplayerplugin in the coming week
<doko> yeah, I set up the tracker, and then noticed that you had already started :)
<infinity> doko: Why do PIE executables think they're libraries?
<doko> split personality
<infinity> (base)adconrad@nosferatu:~$ readelf -a /usr/bin/wget | grep '^  Type:'
<infinity>   Type:                              DYN (Shared object file)
<infinity> (base)adconrad@nosferatu:~$ readelf -a /bin/mv | grep '^  Type:'
<infinity>   Type:                              EXEC (Executable file)
<infinity> It's rather irksome.
<infinity> (I get that they're linked as shared objects, so technically are just like a PIC library, but I don't get why the ELF header has to be wrong too)
<kees> infinity: they're both ET_DYN. it's been a bug that .so files were detected using the Type.
<kees> i.e. this is, imo, a bug in readelf
<infinity> kees: So, how would readelf go about telling the difference, then?
<kees> infinity: I think the presence of DT_DEBUG
<kees> $ readelf -d /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libmirclient.so | fgrep '(DEBUG)'
<kees> $ readelf -d /usr/bin/ssh | fgrep '(DEBUG)'
<kees>  0x0000000000000015 (DEBUG)              0x0
<infinity> kees: binutils patch forthcoming? :)
<infinity> kees: It's weird to see my system slowly shifting to being nothing but libraries (weirder still to see tools like lintian agree)
<kees> I'm used to it at this point. :) chrome os has been default PIE since the beginning, and Android switched a few years ago too.
<kees> it really confuses "file" :)
<infinity> Quite.
<infinity> file is where I first noticed it.
<infinity> Which I assume it just using the same heuristic as readelf.
<kees> yup. it just examines the elf type. fundamentally, there's no difference.
<kees> it just happens that gcc drops in DT_DEBUG for executables for some reason
<infinity> Still seems wrong to my that the ELF type is "shared object" (even if it technically is), but meh.
<infinity> I wonder if the real definition of an ELF executable would be "any valid ELF type" + "has a PI entry".
<infinity> Except that I've seen a ton of libraries with /lib/ld-linux PI entries, so there's a toolchain bug there too. :P
<infinity> s/bug/misfeature/ ... It's not like it hurts for a library to have a PI, but it's also pointless.
<kees> i'm misparsing. what do you mean by PI? I was reading it as "position independent" but "a PI" doesn't make sense to me now :)
<infinity> kees: Program Interpreter.
<kees> ah!
<infinity> kees: ie: a binary shebang.
<kees> right
<infinity> Of course, static binaries also shouldn't have one, so that goes out the window. :P
<kees> where does the PI show up?
<infinity> But if the existence of (DEBUG) is a gcc oddity, that's also a broken heuristic.
<kees> yeah, I'd rather have a better one
<infinity> kees: I don't recall precisely where it shows up in the byte stream, file knows.
<infinity> /bin/mv: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked, interpreter /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
<infinity> Since it extracts it.
<kees> yeah... trying to find it in readelf...
<infinity> But.  Like I said, we seem to have a toolchain that bakes it into libraries too, so that's no help. :P
<kees> oh, it does? ew
<infinity> Oh.  Maybe not.
<infinity> It might just be needlessly linking libraries to it.
<infinity> Which is fine.
<LocutusOfBorg> can anybody with an s390x machine tell me why this package isn't installable? https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dolfin/1.6.0-1ubuntu5/+build/9621086
<LocutusOfBorg>  Missing build dependencies: libslepc3.6.1-dev
<infinity> http://paste.ubuntu.com/16160211/
<infinity> kees: ^-- So, quick random sample of a whole two files.  Yes, libs are linked to ld-linux, but not listed as an interpreter.  And file seems smart enough to point out interpreters even in "libraries" (PIE wget).
<infinity> kees: So that may indeed by the right heuristic, since a PI implies executable, even if it's just because you misbuilt your library.  ie: that may be a misbuild you'd want to know about anyway.
<kees> infinity: yeah, I think that's correct. I still haven't found where that's listed in the various readelf options...
<infinity> Or you may be a unique snowflake like libc, which is intentionally an executable library and, indeed, I think it should be detected as EXEC.
<kees> Program headers, I think
<kees> yeah, no INTERP program header.
<kees> so, maybe even just INTERP or not... not need to check for ld-linux.
<kees> which is, I think, what you just said. ;)
<infinity> Right.
<infinity> kees: Oh hey, since you're the resident expert on PIE...
 * kees cringes
<infinity> kees: I understand why it's a massive performance hit on i386 (register pressure because, well, we have two), why is there not an i686 implementation that just absconds with an MMX register instead?
<infinity> kees: Given our baseline is i686, that would seem like it should work...
<kees> infinity: I don't know :) this is a question for the compiler gods.
<infinity> kees: Also, your mention of ChromeOS and Android implies you're PIEing on armv7.  Does that eat one of the vfp registers, or one of the gp registers (and did you benchmark it at all)?
<kees> infinity: iirc, it eats a gp register. we don't care about the hit because PIE is more important. :)
<kees> (though our ASLR entropy on armv7 is terrible)
<infinity> kees: I feel like this is a thing we should turn on for all our arches (well, minus i386, unless we can get something magic like above), but I need a lot more info.
<kees> it should be on for all archs including i386. ;)
<infinity> Turning it on for i386, we may as well just drop i386, the hit's that bad. :/
<kees> nah
<kees> but given most people are in a "who cares about i386?" mood, taking a perf hit doesn't bother them :)
<infinity> I might make an executive decision as the powerpc community port maintainer to turn it on there.
<infinity> But armv7, arm64, and i386 will take internal discussions.
<kees> arm64 should be a no-brainer
<infinity> I'm inclined to agree.  It's just that doko and the security team only tested amd64 and ppc64el on the last pass, so those are the ones he enabled.
<infinity> (And we did s390x out of the gate)
<kees> no one has any arm64, so no one will notice a change. :)
<infinity> We actually have a fair few installations out there.
<infinity> Some reasonably large, even.
<infinity> I was as puzzled as you to discover this.
<infinity> That said, right after an LTS seems the best time to be switching.
<infinity> People have two years to deal with the new world order.
<kees> I love s390x
<infinity> kees: I feel like there's a followup coming to turn that into a sarcastic statement.
<kees> unrelated: I don't seem to be able to debootstrap yaketty right now. complains about deps
<kees> infinity: no! the s390x hardware support in the kernel is great! they've had strong kernel memory permissions since forever, they have separate userspace and kernel space memory, etc etc
<kees> much more hardened than x86
<infinity> Well, you have to look at the heritage.
<infinity> The invented virtualization before we started copying BASIC programs from magazines.
<infinity> The real disappointment is that it's taken everyone else so long to catch up.
<infinity> They caught up to "mainframe performance", but skipped all the features.
<infinity> s/The invented/They invented/
<infinity> kees: --variant=buildd, or a big, fat debootstrap?
<infinity> kees: A buildd one just worked here.
 * infinity tries a chubby one.
<infinity> kees: chubby debootstrap also succeeded, I blame your mirror.
<kees> infinity: hmmm. I will double-check my mirror. I've been having .. Issues(tm)
<kees> oh good, my mirror refresh just finished. debootstrap much happier now
#ubuntu-devel 2016-05-01
<infinity> LocutusOfBorg: It only exists in xenial.
<infinity> LocutusOfBorg: (on all arches)
<infinity> LocutusOfBorg: So the more interesting question is what's pulling it in.
<infinity> LocutusOfBorg: Oh, and the answer is dolfin itself. :P
<ginggs> infinity: hi, i guess you haven't had time to look at fpc/glibc/powerpc mess yet. is removing powerpc an option to get things moving for now? it's going to get caught up in ffmpeg
<infinity> ginggs: Haven't had a chance to fix it yet -- how does it relate to ffmpeg?
<infinity> ginggs: Oh, hedgewars?
<infinity> ginggs: If so, that's a non-issue, I removed hedgewars on !x86 already.
<ginggs> infinity: yeah hedgewars, thanks. if you removed fpc on powerpc, it would fix the issues with arm
<ginggs> infinity: i mean we'd get fpc 3.0.0+dfsg-4 which fixes issues with arm and i386
<infinity> ginggs: There's a lot more to remove than just fpc, and I'd prefer to find the bug.
<infinity> (ie: removing fpc is just papering over whatever is actually broken)
<infinity> So, I'll get there.
<ginggs> infinity: thanks
<leonn> hi, iâd like to test this patch https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox/+bug/1575781/comments/10 to give some feedback about it
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1575781 in oxygen-gtk3 (Ubuntu Precise) "Firefox 46 crashes on Ubuntu 12.04 (precise) with Oxygen-GTK3" [High,Triaged]
<leonn> is there a quicker way than âdownload source package, apply patch, compileâ¦â
<leonn> like is there some tooling that automates that or so?
<leonn> ah i guess iâll just follow https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UpdatingADeb
<mwhudson> infinity: you think gcc PIE output is bad on i386, you should look at what Go produces :-)
<mwhudson> (i wrote the position 386 independent codegen for the Go toolchain in about a day)
<xpheres> hello
<xpheres> I can not compile for arm anymore, I get the error that policy is in debug mode or something like that
<xpheres> anyone knows how to solve that?
<xpheres> my apps do not install anymore
<infinity> xpheres: This isn't a support channel.  Try #ubuntu
<xpheres> I have an app in the ubuntu market
<xpheres> is this not the right channel to ask?
<kees> wat. -rw------- 2 debmirror debmirror  869084 Apr 30 04:42 Sources.xz
<kees> so... debmirror in rsync mode. why in the world does it fetch single files when it knows the list ahead of time (e.g. Translation*)
<kees> hm, /var/tmp seems to be filling up with systemd temp dirs. does anything clean this up?
#ubuntu-devel 2017-04-24
<ginggs> tsimonq2, mapreri: i guess i can sync healpy now (since the healpix-cxx upload) ?
<mapreri> why isn't that detected by dpkg-shlibs?
<mapreri> anyhow yes, you can
<ginggs> mapreri: ack
<arune> rbasak, regarding bug #1641203 I have now patched the sources for Xenial-packages and got it working fine, however, it seems I'm not skilled enough to create debdiffs
<ubottu> bug 1641203 in sssd (Ubuntu Xenial) "SSSD can't process GPO from Active Directory when it contains lines with no equal sign" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641203
<Unit193> ginggs: Hi!  So looked into telegram before I noticed the bug.  Telegram sets a Qt env var in one of the patches, I'd try taking that out and rebuilding to see if you still get the issue in question.
<ginggs> Unit193: looking now, thanks
<ginggs> Unit193: removing the Qt env var has no effect on my system, but that patch would be a good place to set QT_QPA_PLATFORMTHEME
<Unit193> ginggs: Removing it from the patch and recompiling didn't?  Huh, OK..Well then.
<Unit193> (Setting env vars inside the application isn't ideal, but forcing the default of not setting them is maybe worse...)
<rbasak> arune: you can use the debdiff command against the old and new dsc files
<tjaalton> arune, rbasak: there will be a 1.13.5 after 1.15.3
<tjaalton> with that fix
<arune> rbasak, where does the new dsc come from? I did dch -n and added a changelog entry according to https://wiki.debian.org/BuildingTutorial but now I'm lost again
<rbasak> arune: build the new source package from the new source tree. "dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -nc -d -S" is what I use, but that only works if the source tree is clean.
<rbasak> You'll get a .dsc in the parent directory.
<mapreri> Laney: is there a reason to not sync src:phonon ?
<mapreri> (you're the last person who touched it)
<LocutusOfBorg> I guess it wasn't updated at that time
<LocutusOfBorg> (in Debian I mean)
<mapreri> possibly, but I can't understand why we kept a -0ubuntuX version even after Debian long updated it
<LocutusOfBorg> a diff between the ubuntu3 and the corresponding -2 debian version shows something worrysome (e.g includes have changed)
<mapreri> yeah, I was noticing that
<mapreri> although there is a -DPHONON_INSTALL_QT_COMPAT_HEADERS=ON thing in d/rules.. what's that
<LocutusOfBorg> I would say sync, and in case some rdep breaks, test them in advance maybe :)
<LocutusOfBorg> maybe put them into a ppa
<mapreri> https://packages.debian.org/sid/amd64/libphonon-dev/filelist shows both versions
<mapreri> s/versions/paths/
<LocutusOfBorg> true
<mapreri> lrwxrwxrwx root/root         0 2016-07-31 14:34 ./usr/include/qt4/phonon -> ../phonon
<LocutusOfBorg> would be nice to sync and break the whole kde stuff, better ask and leave it to him :p
<mapreri> (+ that, which means a total of 3 different working paths)
<mapreri> .oO who uses KDE anyway!
<Laney> mapreri: Dunno. Feel free to use your judgement.
<mapreri> ack
 * LocutusOfBorg would sync it
<mapreri> I've got a week without any real commitment apart from studying for an exam, guess I am available enough to fix up stuff
<Laney> My changelog implies that I didn't want to figure out the delta. :)
<Laney> so if you do, go wild
<LocutusOfBorg> a good reason for not touching at that time was probably xenial freeze schedule
<mapreri> Sync this package [y|N]? y
<Laney> aren't new releases fun?
<mapreri> ^^
<xnox> ogra_, is src:ubuntu-core-meta .... Ubuntu Core aka snappy, or something touch related?
<xnox> ogra_, or is that like snappy v1?
<ogra_> xnox, thats snappy but there needs to be a merge ...
<ogra_> xnox, we have an additional src package in the PPA (since you cant do seed changes to released versions)
<ogra_> xnox, https://launchpad.net/~snappy-dev/+archive/ubuntu/image/+packages?field.name_filter=&field.status_filter=published&field.series_filter=xenial
<ogra_> xnox, though thats not super relevant since these bits are used for the core snap ... we wont need/use them from the archive before 18.04 (core is only built from 16.04)
<ogra_> so there is no hurry
<xnox> ogra_, what do you mean a merge? do you mean you uploaded things into PPA without comitting things to lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu-core.$devel ?!
<xnox> ogra_, well, i am making an upload off ubuntu-core.artful now into artful.
<ogra_> xnox, yes, we have to
<xnox> ogra_, "have to" or did, when uploading into the PPA? =) i mean not the update to the .xenial branch, but update to .yakkety/.zesty/.artful?
<ogra_> i dont care about anything newer than xenial ... (and there mostly about that PPA)
<xnox> cause in the .artful branch I have no changes since yakkety.
<xnox> ogra_, you must commit seed changes to the branch, even if you don't care about it, because we will branch that for 18.04.
<ogra_> nobody cared for xenial+n ...
<ogra_> simply because thats moot
<xnox> ogra_, but everyone will care about 18.04.....
<xnox> it's not moot.
<xnox> you could have been generating packages for your ppa, using the bzr branch of .yakkety/.zesty/.artful such that your 18.04 will be correct.
<ogra_> we dont even build core from the opfficial livecd-rootfs anymore so it is moot until we start 18.04
<xnox> i know.
<xnox> but i care about one less delta, rather than "oh not that we have 1 delta, let's have gazzilion deltas and not care about any of them." =)
<ogra_> thats nice for book-keeping but nothing more, the binary debs of that serve no purtpose in these releases
<xnox> ogra_, i care about keeping the branches up to date, not the binaries in the archives.
<xnox> ogra_, where is your ubuntu-seeds/germinate branch fro what's in the ppa?
<xnox> you did build things into the ppa with ./update script based on a seed right?
<xnox> i'll merge it into .artful branch
<ogra_> right, but the branches need changing plus we need merges of ubuntu-core-meta from the PPA and from the archive
<ogra_> the authoritative seed is in the PPA package
<xnox> ogra_, you have been uploading meta packages with by-hand tweaks?! what do you mean merge from PPA/archive?
<ogra_> thats the only way to upload them to a released series
<xnox> dude, you should not do that. start a bzr branch for the ppa, of the seed, and update the ./update.cfg in the PPA package to point to that, and use ./update scripts to maintain the package.....
<xnox> ogra_, no, it isn't.
<ogra_> you cant re-create them from seeds, seed changes to xenial are ignored
<cjwatson> that's only true for tasks, not for metapackages
<xnox> when one runs things locally, the seeds are read from the bzr branch, rather than the exported website.
<cjwatson> the distinction between the bzr branch and the exported website is mostly not relevant here.  the exported website is updated every five minutes (including for xenial etc.).
<cjwatson> I think ogra_ must be thinking of tasks.
<ogra_> yes, indeed
<xnox> ogra_, core build stuff uses metapackages right, not the tasks? (given that ppas don't publish tasks, as far as I understand / do not have override support).
<xnox> hence we should be able to migrate ppa build to be based on the bzr branch.
<ogra_> we use deboostrap --minbase and then install the ubuntu-core task on top
<xnox> s/the/a/
<ogra_> (and then run a gazillion hooks to mangle the result)
<xnox> right, but that installs the metapackage, and your ppa updates get installed, because the new metapackage is up to date? there is no updates to tasks in the ppa
<ogra_> we'll most likely completely switch away from this soon ... to a set of stacked tarballs based on to of ubuntu-base
<ogra_> (which means no more tasks or metapackages at all ... )
<xnox> and it seems like doko has been uploading into the archive without updating ubuntu-seeds branch either.
<LocutusOfBorg> tjaalton, https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libepoxy/1.3.1-2ubuntu1
<LocutusOfBorg> I also opened a pull request with that patch: https://github.com/anholt/libepoxy/pull/118/files
<LocutusOfBorg> seems upstream forgot some checks when fixing that issue
<LocutusOfBorg> (they don't hurt, so I prefer the "better safe than sorry" approach)
<tjaalton> LocutusOfBorg: cool, thx
<LocutusOfBorg> tjaalton, just to be clear, I don't know how to test that particular corner case
<LocutusOfBorg> so I hope everything is fine
<LocutusOfBorg> double testing is appreciated
<tjaalton> autopkgtests will show ;)
<LocutusOfBorg> lovely autopkgtests!
<juliank> mvo: various people and slangasek voiced concern about our apt timer in bug 1615482, it happening at random times. I plan to limit that to around 6am again: https://github.com/julian-klode/apt/commit/93a513c4953bab9b0569c9e2bc2c74075a50dc00 - any objections?
<ubottu> bug 1615482 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt-daily timer runs at random hours of the day" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1615482
<juliank> This chooses 6:00 + up to 30 mins, an alternative is 5:30 + up to 1 hour (aka 6 +/- 30)
<juliank> You picked the original 2 times I think, not sure what your reason was for that
<mvo> juliank: please check with slangasek if there is no concern about hitting the mirror all at once in a too tiny time-window, I don't mind that
<juliank> mvo: OK, just thought you had a special reason for going twice a day with huge randomization
<mvo> juliank: unfortunately I need to run right now, we can talk either late today or tomorow morning. but its fine with me as long as the load is reasonable spread
<mvo> juliank: the reason was to ease the load on mirrors
<juliank> That was sarnold's concern too
<mvo> juliank: but if the randomness is a bigger concern than the load on mirrors, then it needs to change :)
<juliank> Yep
<mvo> juliank: I don't mind either way, back when I did it the priority was ease on mirrors
 * mvo really needs to run
<juliank> run, mvo, run!
<slangasek> xnox: ah, fresh apt discussion :) ^^
<xnox> juliank, i'm pretty sure we want it between 6..7am in the machine's timezone whatever it may be.
<xnox> we will have a 6..7 UTC time spike, because people don't set timezones, but so be it.
<xnox> juliank, and i'm pretty sure we want it at 6:30 +/- :30
<juliank> xnox: 6 to 7 is fine with me (that's 6:00 with 1 hour randomized delay)
<xnox> which in systemd.timer speak is 6:00 Randomized delay 1h
<xnox> juliank, that.
<xnox> juliank, and we will be picking that up as an SRU.
<juliank> xnox: I already queued that in my head with the other change for the next SRU(s)
<xnox> juliank, hm. that might not be quick enough for our customer....
<juliank> Yep, SRUs
<xnox> i think we (I) will need to crank this out, just by itself.
<xnox> and then we can go back to the regularly scheduled programming =)
<juliank> xnox: There are already SRUs in -proposed, mostly waiting on those.
<juliank> They are all verified now, and a month old, so good to go
<juliank> xnox: I can prepare releases within the next ~ 12 hours or so, that's not a problem. And the other issue for yakkety is also important (and xenial only really has https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/apt/apt.git/commit/?id=5094697fe4b2459ff6f706a22006d3028369f3fa, a one line change, in addition)
<xnox> juliank, i can ping about that.
<xnox> juliank, hehe, yes =) nice one.
<juliank> If we agree on 6 + 1, I'll upload 1.4.1 to Debian today, sync that, and upload 1.4.1~17.04 to zesty (1.4 being the zesty/stretch series, basically), and 1.3.6 to yakkety and 1.2.21 to xenial tomorrow. No big deal.
<juliank> tomorrow if the current SRUs go through today, obviously
<xnox> juliank, yes, 6am + 1h in the systems' / machine timezone.
<juliank> Well, that's what systemd does, right?
<xnox> juliank, by default yes. But one can also specify timezones e.g. UTC, but we do _not_ want that. we want no timezone specified aka machine timezone
<juliank> Complete diff for 1.4.1: https://github.com/julian-klode/apt/compare/1.4...master
 * sarnold groans at xnox for "regularly scheduled programming"
<xnox> juliank, +1
<juliank> xnox: Now go and bug people about the SRUs stuck in -proposed, and we can roll out new SRUs tomorrow :D
<xnox> juliank, yeah. as soon as we upgrade critical piece of infra which runs britney et.al. because we started upgrading it, unexpectedly. (scheduled to upgrade it for wednesday, started to upgrade it by accident)
<xnox> and that went south, obviously.
<juliank> Ooops...
<juliank> xnox: You made it sound so extremely urgent :D
<xnox> juliank, well =) it is, and it is nice that you agree on the expected timing for things. Cause having upstream backing is nice.
<xnox> juliank, i'm pretty sure, someone will be angry tomorrow asking when this will land, expecting me to reply it was all fixed last week.
<xnox> asking me that is =)
<juliank> xnox: No problem. I would have fixed it last week already, but there was no time consensus back then, and mvo was already gone
<xnox> juliank, yeah, and mvo is having slightly different consensus then the foundations team =)
<juliank> xnox: Well, my only question was that there was a special reason why he picked both 6 and 18:00.
<juliank> s/that/if there/
<xnox> slangasek, juliank, but given that this used to be triggered via anachron too. (in case machine is off during 6am..7am window) should we not specify that this is Persistent=yes too.
<xnox> Persistent=
<xnox> Takes a boolean argument. If true, the time when the service unit was last triggered is stored on disk. When the timer is activated, the service unit is triggered immediately if it would have been triggered at least once during the time when the timer was inactive. This is useful to catch up on missed runs of the service when the machine was off. Note that this setting only has an effect on timers configured with OnCalendar=. Defaults to false.
<juliank> xnox: It is
<xnox> cool!
<xnox> perfect =)
<xnox> nothing else i can think off.
<juliank> xnox: It did not used to work at boot because it mostly ran before network, but as you can see in the diff, I added the network-online dep
<xnox> yeap.
<juliank> I still think it does not work with resume, as network-online just stays active when suspending, but it's some progress
<xnox> yeah, i would expect network-online.target to for-example restart on resume, such that things can bindto network-online.target and get retriggered on resume.
<juliank> That would be optimal, yes
<xnox> i think i need to talk to upstream about that.
<xnox> juliank, but i thought my recommendation there was that .service unit should fail; and have a retry argument with a delay
<juliank> Ah yeah, retry with backoff for failing timer services would be great
<xnox> RestartSec=1min
<xnox> Restart=on-failure
<xnox> and i think we need to limit that too
<juliank> So, 1.4.1 is on the Debian infra now,  should hit the dinstall there in 2 hours 40 mins
<juliank> xnox: Let's think about that carefully for May :D
<xnox> yes
<xnox> ah "Note that service restart is subject to unit start rate limiting configured with StartLimitIntervalSec= and StartLimitBurst=, see systemd.unit(5) for details.
<xnox> "
<juliank> xnox: RestartSec is suboptimal, it really should be doing exponential backoff
<juliank> And of course, if you run upgrades and they fail, do you even want to retry?
<xnox> "Note that units which are configured for Restart= and which reach the start limit are not attempted to be restarted anymore;"
<xnox> well, i only want to re-run apt update step =/ maybe we need to inject special exit codes for apt update failed, and only restart on those exit codes.
<infinity> xnox:
<infinity>   * journal: fix up syslog facility when forwarding native messages.
<infinity>     Native journal messages (_TRANSPORT=journal) typically don't have a
<infinity>     syslog facility attached to it. As a result when forwarding the
<infinity>     messages to syslog they ended up with facility 0 (LOG_KERN).
<infinity>     Apply syslog_fixup_facility() so we use LOG_USER instead. (Closes: #837893)
<infinity>     (LP: #1682484)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1682484 in systemd (Ubuntu Zesty) "systemd: Logging from gnome session is passed on to all syslog facilities" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1682484
<infinity> xnox: ^-- That sounds like something we might like to SRU.
<infinity> xnox: (noticed that dmesg on the upgraded snakefruit is full of timer adjust messages, which is just vile)
<xnox> infinity, yes.
<xnox> infinity, i didn't yet trace how far the bug goes, i presume forever.
<infinity> xnox: Err, assuming that also applies to timer messages?
<infinity> [  265.446293] systemd[1]: snapd.refresh.timer: Adding 4h 38min 10.024228s random time.
<xnox> infinity, depends if it is a user timer, or a system one.
<infinity> That stuff really doesn't belong in the ringbuffer.
<xnox> infinity, no, this bug report is about user session apps, doing syslog() and that ending up in the kern.log
<xnox> as in stuff running under uid 1000
<infinity> Oh.  So we need another bug and fix for this sort of thing? :P
<xnox> that lovely timer message is from systemd =)
<xnox> it that timer stuff in kern.log though? i guess i can check my own system.
<xnox> i do not have any .timer messages in dmesg
<xnox> are you booted with debug?
<xnox> you should only have stuff in dmesg, upto until journal service is started and flushed
<xnox> after that things go into journal.
<infinity> xnox: Oh, that may indeed be early boot.  But wow, gross that I get so many of them.
<infinity> xnox: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24449338/
<infinity> xnox: That's a whole lot of noise for such a short period.
<xnox> well, you can disable that, but then if things stuck before systemd manages to write things somewhere nicer one wouldn't even know what has stuck.
<xnox> that's not normal.
<xnox> e.g. by 265 it's not early boot anymore.
<xnox> infinity, can i have a grep of just systemd? e.g. $ dmesg | grep systemd ?
<xnox> systemctl list-units --failed ?
<infinity> xnox: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24449341/
<xnox> also EOD an hour ago =/
<xnox> infinity, yeah timer stuff is not normal. will follow up on that.
<xnox> also lldpd denied notify is not nice.
<infinity> xnox: Only failed is psql (which migh warrant investigation too, but shouldn't relate to this?)
<xnox> one is not booted, if one is degraded.
<xnox> systemct is-system-running
<infinity> xnox: degraded indeed.
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/systemd/+bug/1685874
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1685874 in systemd (Ubuntu) "on xenial timer messaeges are in dmesg, wtf?!" [Undecided,New]
<juliank> xnox: Seeign that: Does snapd also use similar timer values as apt? Might make sense to change that too, then, if the argument is that shit breaks if you upgrade software at random times
<infinity> xnox: I haven't had any more timers since those, which is also curious.  So maybe that really was all "early boot".  Regardless, that's super noisy.
<juliank> infinity: That will be less severe once the random delay is shorter, for apt at les
<juliank> s/les/least/
 * zyga focuses on reviews and making tests pass
 * zyga wonders if anyone would merge his update-ns branches
<infinity> zyga: Was that meant to be aimed at this channel?
<zyga> oh
<zyga> no, irssi moved me over somehow
<infinity> Sure, blame the client. ;)
<infinity> (Alt-Left and Alt-Right bounce between irssi windows, if maybe you fat-fingered that when you meant to Ctrl-Alt-Right to hit another virtual desktop?)
<sil2100> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> bdmurray, BenC, cyphermox, infinity, micahg, rbasak, sil2100: DMB ping.
<cyphermox> oi.
<cyphermox> I think everything's done and we didn't update the wiki last time; no new applicants?
<nacc> dpb1: rbasak: fyi, automated imports are running again, from the snap!
<dpb1> awwww, snap
<dpb1> in a good way
<rbasak> \o/
<infinity> xnox: Ahh, and I got more timer spam in the ringbuffer later.  So, yeah.  Not cool.
<infinity> xnox: FWIW, I have the same on my desktop machine.
#ubuntu-devel 2017-04-25
<hloeung> juliank, mvo, xnox: added my comments to bug 1615482
<ubottu> bug 1615482 in apt (Ubuntu) "apt-daily timer runs at random hours of the day" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1615482
<arune_> rbasak, I uploaded the patches I've tested on bug #1641203, I can't get a debdiff working
<ubottu> bug 1641203 in sssd (Ubuntu Xenial) "SSSD can't process GPO from Active Directory when it contains lines with no equal sign" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1641203
<juliank> hloeung: Let's see how 1 hour delay works out (it's still twice as much as before) for a few weeks. If I'd guess the peak would be around 50% to 75% of where it used to be (it really depends on how long the update is). The only way to solve bandwidth issues and really still maintain a sensible time window is to provide pdiff support on the archive (which reduces download size by like 90%).
<Unit193> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-discuss/2014-February/014793.html (Continued into the next month.) - LP 214612
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 214612 in Launchpad itself "Provide pdiffs for apt-get update" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/214612
<cpaelzer> I like this bug description "There's a glitch in binaries."
<cpaelzer> :-)
<juliank> Unit193: There are a lot of difficulties with pdiffs here, basically.
<Unit193> juliank: Just pointing to it, though might be helpful to some during the dev cycle.
<xnox> hloeung, juliank, mvo: end-users care about predictable times when the upgrade happens; end-users do not care (usually) about mirror spikes. mirror administrators care about mirror spikes... but not when the end-user upgrades happens. I fight for the user!
<xnox> hloeung, about the mirrors. Could you elaborate as to how they are deployed. I would have thought that for example on big clouds, there would be a local bucket/cdn used to serve the mirror at blazing speeds with no need to spin up any instances.
<hloeung> xnox: heh except when it's heavily loaded, end users will most likely miss out on important updates
<mvo> xnox: I think we need input from IS here (you are seeking it already so +100 for that). my understanding is that we have a lot of mirrors on ISPs, univesities etc that care about spikes
<hloeung> xnox: they're deployed using juju, ubuntu-repository-cache charm (which is basically squid-deb-proxy)
<juliank> These things are easily changeable via a drop-in unit. Large organizations that can tolerate more variance can easily roll out a config file choosing whatever they want.
<mvo> xnox: note that I don't really mind either way, we need to decide what is more important and if we can find a middle ground. in the old days before systemd iirc the randomization was 6am + 2h so maybe we could go back to something like that. i.e. not spread over the entire day but only within ~2h or 4h or something
<xnox> hloeung, mvo: we had a customer outage were mid-day upgrades killed customer workloads in a dedicated ($$$) hosting provider. The change from one hour window, to unpredictable window is streated as a severe regression and has been escalated to me.
<xnox> hence we are reverting back to previous behaviour for now.
<juliank> mvo: xnox: It was 30 minutes, 6:00-6:30, actually
<juliank> AFAICT
<xnox> right.
<juliank> Now it's 6-7
<xnox> and i think 1h is accetable, random throughout the day is not.
<hloeung> xnox: all we, IS, asked for was a larger window than the 30m
<juliank> 1 hour is larger
<xnox> hloeung, but e.g. debian has an archive mirroring onto aws cloudfront these days. I'll try to find if that code is available, and if we can jujufyit.
<hloeung> juliank: ok then, we'll see how 1hr goes. Thanks!
<juliank> Now, assume an update takes 4 minutes, you can calculate how much the load will be relative to 30 minutes
<mvo> juliank: you are right, I misremebered
<xnox> hloeung, it's blazing fast, at least for me.
<juliank> Though 4 minutes is probably too much. Most updates take like 90s I'd think
<juliank> and with a local mirror, things are even faster
<juliank> Our accuracy is 1 minute, so we have 60 options at which to start updates
<juliank> (could improve accuracy to 1s or so, but given the duration of an update, there's likely no benefit)
<juliank> Let's assume you have 10,000 clients, each taking 2 minutes to update (for ease of calculations). How many clients will be active at the same time?
<xnox> hloeung, should the clouds with spikes problems have their cloud images modified with a larger update window? e.g. we can totally make cloud images for cloud $foo region $bar to have a larger update window.
<xnox> hloeung, but my preference is to actually use cdn-like mirrors rather than instance-cpu powered ones.
<hloeung> xnox: yeah, if you can do that, then that will definitely help
<hloeung> xnox: costs $$$ :(
<xnox> hloeung, former / latter / both?
<xnox> ah.
<hloeung> xnox: if it's easy to have cloud images randomise over a larger window
<juliank> I thought about providing a package for changing the default to a longer period
<juliank> Like apt-config-long-maintenance-window
<juliank> Could do updates between 0 and 7
<juliank> It's a bit silly as it's one file with like 5 lines, but people apparently can't figure that out themselves, so maybe that's what is needed
<cjwatson_> I'd love to do pdiffs, but I've never been able to sort out how it would work with the much faster archive cycle we have than Debian.
<cjwatson> I don't want to end up having to keep a zillion little files around.
<juliank> cjwatson: Yeah, that's really the main issue. You gotta do merged pdiffs then, and keep less ones around.
<xnox> juliank, well, imho cloud-init for the cloud should realise that X UTC is not the best time to update the whole world, and that it should figure out the cloud/region it is in, and use "machine-local timezone; cloud-region timezone; utc" to spread the update load.
<juliank> Whatever works for you, I was just thinking about the general case.
<juliank> What I realised yesterday is that 6-7 might not be the best time for Indian users. IIRC, they have a lot of cheaper-at-night data stuff, and would prefer something more midnighty?
<juliank> Ah yes, 0-6
<xnox> juliank, there is a bit of information about the mirror spikes problem. For a few clouds, canonical operates the mirrors - which all fallback to the Canonical UK country mirror. Meaning a DDOS at 6:00am =)
<xnox> juliank, yes, as soon as i saw the 6am-7am UTC i was like that's a bad time for anybody between Moscow, India, Oceania.
<juliank> Maybe we should have picked 5-6
<xnox> but the argument there is that 6am-7am localtime is good enough, and is close enough to a revert.
<xnox> for a general case; and people on metered connections probably also have their devices off; or specifically schedule things overnight (e.g. torrents, updates, what not)
<juliank> We can still have apt-night-update which configures a 0-6 time or something.
<xnox> because it's a lot more hands-on.
<juliank> Sure, it would be interesting to get some feedback on that.
<xnox> juliank, as a command maybe, rather than a package with one drop in.
<juliank> xnox: I am close to thinking about a debconf question: When do you want automatic updates to occur?
<xnox> juliank, at the moment the feedback is that mass majority uses the default; for a niche users that causes mirror spikes / slow apt update; for another niche of users it causes sysadmin stress over not knowing when the updates will strike.
<xnox> juliank, no such prompt will be in ubuntu; we default to automatic updates, because we want our users to be secure.
<xnox> plus cloud images do not do debconf =) they are all non-interactively launched and configured, and are by far the largest % of users.
<juliank> xnox: Well, it would still have automatic updates, it just asks you at which time :D
<juliank> On the cloud, you'd set the selection and reconfigure the package.
 * xnox giggles
<juliank> But well, we can ship a bunch of drop-ins in /usr/share/apt and build a selector that looks at the descriptions, lists them all and allows you to choose one.
<xnox> juliank, the cloud provider, should be dictating imho cloud policy via the vendor meta-data in the config drive; such that cloud-init can read it and dictate the policy. The cloud guests, have ability to disable vendor data and place their own overrides.
<juliank> Or, well, just use update-alternatives for that
<xnox> juliank, most people never login to reconfigure a package in the cloud. Most deploy their workloads via things, and scale up/down.
<juliank> xnox: This is just a way to give systemd its config files. How you start that is another topic
<xnox> juliank, whilst nice for end users on the console, most people will be annoyed by it, and it will not at all mitigate mirror spike from large clouds. I don't think.
<xnox> juliank, imho for regular people; solving the running of apt-updates on resume with networking is imho a much larger priority than debconf prompts to assist people on how to update systemd timers schedules =)
<juliank> That's true I think.
<juliank> xnox: So, the plan is to go ahead with the 6-7 SRUs, then and do something special for cloud? I'd prepare them later today then.
<xnox> juliank, yes.
<juliank> Alright :)
<xnox> juliank, mean while i'm trying to reproduce and/or fix the autopkgtest failures that are blocking the release of the SRUs.
<xnox> there are "regressions" one down, one to go.
<juliank> xnox: They alway happened, we always ignored them
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sbuild/+bug/1686064
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686064 in sbuild (Ubuntu Artful) "sbuild ADT test can only pass in devel series" [Undecided,New]
<juliank> xnox: yep, that's the issue :)
<juliank> xnox: Fixing that will make all SRUs faster :D
<xnox> and i am retrying the autopkgtest package adt failure, triggered by apt in xenial. as i cannot reproduce it.
<juliank> xnox: The AssertionError: 16 != 0 ?
<xnox> yeah
<juliank> xnox: that has been happening in all previous SRUs as well, so a retry should not fix it :(
<juliank> xnox: Did you just see what harry33 did it in the timer bug report?
<juliank> people these days
<xnox> juliank, yeah well done.
<xnox> juliank, also i think it is wrong that systemd doesn't do login before everything is up; they argue everything should be up before one is allowed to login.
<juliank> Maybe there is some dependency somewhere between multi-user target or dm and the timer target?
<juliank> or something.
<juliank> It should not block at all on timer services, that's silly
 * xnox laughs
<xnox> juliank, systemd is silly..... =)
<juliank> xnox: I like systemd, just some minor issues here and there
<juliank> xnox: Also does not happen on my (Debian) system
<juliank> I could not login though, but that might be unrelated
<Laney> xnox: https://paste.ubuntu.com/24453611/ I call BS on does not reproduce :-)
<juliank> Laney: Oh, if you can reproduce it, you can probably also fix it :D
<Laney> No.
<juliank> :(
<Laney> If I can reproduce it, someone else can was my message
<xnox> horum.
<xnox> Laney, to counter your reproducibility - sudo ./tests/adt-run ChrootRunner.test_setup_commands_string passes on xenial =)
<xnox> clearly the autopkgtest infra interferes with autopkgtest test suite =) i wonder if there are environment variables that leak into the tests, causing it to fail.
<Laney> run it in the same way that the testsuite runs it?
<xnox> trying $ autopkgtest -s autopkgtest -- lxd autopkgtest/ubuntu/xenial/amd64
<Laney> I have -s -U --apt-update=proposed=src:apt autopkgtest
<Laney> oh and --test-name adt-run to just run that one
<Laney> but if it's ~always failed then the SRU team might be willing to overlook it
<xnox> so doing it without -U and without --apt-update, but with -s
<xnox> i get the failure, but the temp dirs are cleaned up already
<xnox> rerunning ./tests/adt-run ChrootRunner.test_setup_commands_string passes....
<xnox> so i am confused a bit. and the temp dirs have been cleaned up by the test =(
<Laney> you can past -B and run autopkgtest from within the source package to run the tests from there
<Laney> like hack the script to delete all the other tests and any teardown stuff you don't want
<Laney> (delete 'autopkgtest' from the commandline to do that)
<xnox> yeah =/
<xnox> let me finish sbuild tests first, to sru that (that is a simple cherrypick)
<tinoco>  libelf-dev : Depends: libelf1 (= 0.166-2ubuntu1) but 0.168-0.2 is to be installed
<tinoco> looks like some binary packages aren't ok in zesty ?
<tinoco> source package makes -dev depend on same binary version
<juliank> xnox: the timer "adding random time" messages are still a bit much in the log: https://paste.debian.net/929242/. Why oh why does it pick a new delay every 10,20, or 30 minutes?
<tinoco> somehow my libelf1 was from artful (even using zesty only repository), weird. fixed.
<xnox> juliank,  i have opened a bug report about that to investigate. honestly crap like that does not belong in kern.log / dmesg.
<juliank> I know
<juliank> not in my kernel log, though, I don't think that's normal :D
<rbalint> how can i get an ubuntu source package with history in bzr/git?
<rbalint> http://packaging.ubuntu.com/singlehtml/ says : bzr branch ubuntu:flash-kernel
<rbalint> but it does not work
<rbalint> i'm about to review all the Ubuntu deltas and seeing the accurate history would be helpful in some cases
<juliank> rbalint: I don't think it's possible? The bzr one stopped a year or two or so ago
<juliank> There are some git repos, but I don't know if they are ready yet?
<juliank> xnox: My boot test was flawed actually. I did not have anything in the network-online.target - my NetworkManager-wait-online.service was disabled. Will reboot later and see what it actually looks like
<rbalint> juliank: will the bzr one be restarted?
<juliank> nah
<rbalint> juliank: i would cut that part from the howto then
<xnox> juliank, you are racing with udev, as our networking does come up udev based on resume, i am suspecting. at least ifupdown is triggered by udev on resume.
<juliank> Interesting
<rbalint>  http://lintian.ubuntuwire.org is also down
<rbalint> juliank: is there anyone who i can ask regarding the git repos?
<juliank> idk
<juliank> xnox: Just suspended and resumed, but status (on Debian) says: "Active: active since Tue 2017-04-25 13:01:24 CEST; 2h 30min ago" - not sure if anything is changed in the Ubuntu version of systemd :)
<juliank> But I think it would be easy to just stop and resume that target, but that's really something for upstream to decide :)
<sil2100> nacc: hey! Do you know who could help verifying the LP: #1564778 SRU? It's in -proposed for 25 days already with another SRU waiting in queue already
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1564778 in sane-backends (Ubuntu Yakkety) "package libsane-common 1.0.25+git20150528-1ubuntu2 failed to install/upgrade: trying to overwrite '/etc/sane.d/hp.conf', which is also in package libsane:i386 1.0.23-3ubuntu3.1" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1564778
<Laney> xnox: try cbac107
<xnox> Laney, hm?
<Laney> it's a commit
<Laney> I bet it works
<xnox> ah
<xnox> ok
<xnox> Laney, yes, that sounds right.
<Laney> :D
<Laney> I guess the problem when you ran it is that you don't set that variable
<Laney> and it's the -z thing that fails
<xnox> yeap, will sort this out for the sru.
<xnox> sbuild yakkety, is in the unapproved queue.
<Laney> awesome
<Laney> fixing tests, what a thing!
<rbalint> juliank:  reported the issues, will see what happens: LP: #1686100, LP: #1686096
<xnox> sbuild xenial fails - because i bet i need to tweak things for xenial now, and again the thing doesn't reproduce in the fail shell =(
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686100 in Ubuntu Packaging Guide " bzr branch ubuntu:hello stopped working" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1686100
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686096 in Ubuntu Packaging Guide " http://lintian.ubuntuwire.org is down" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1686096
<xnox> Laney, i know, i don't think i like ever done this!
<Laney> I ran it with that cherry pick btw
<Laney> passes
<Laney> could upload if you want?
<xnox> Laney, sure. do a bug, sru template, the whole lot. and we need it just in xenial i think, no?
<Laney> it's in yakkety's version already
<tacocat> do I have to explicitly request syncs from experimental->artful if one was done before, or will they happen automatically?
<rbasak> Explicit every time.
<tacocat> ah, thanks
<juliank> doko: Whatever happened to bug 1644363 - the linker crashing on arm64 in trusty? It's been 4 months now, and the SRU for bug 1422795 is blocked by this (not to mention other SRUs that might be linking the wrong code because ld failed in some configure tests)
<ubottu> bug 1644363 in binutils (Ubuntu Trusty) "[trusty/arm64] binutils segfaults on bash gettext configure test" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1644363
<ubottu> bug 1422795 in bash (Ubuntu Trusty) "bash crashes often if inputrc contains revert-all-at-newline" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1422795
<juliank> It should just be a matter of bisecting eglibc between the broken and working versions, and fixing it?
<juliank> Although, maybe it is indeed a bug in binutils, and fixed by this commit: https://sourceware.org/git/gitweb.cgi?p=binutils-gdb.git;a=commit;h=99d190fac4d2aab238cfc798dc5c28ab41456882
<juliank> At least that's what https://git.busybox.net/buildroot/commit/?id=4210c49357b216705a85734293023d8d5683bb49 says
 * juliank added that as a comment. Not sure if it helps - don't know if the patch even applies :)
<juliank> infinity: ^ (since you were the one doing the initial debugging)
 * juliank does not have an arm64 to test this on :/
<nacc> sil2100: i can try today, yeah -- i was never affected
<juliank> I guess I'll just try applying the patch
<juliank> Patch applies :)
<sil2100> nacc: thanks!
<nacc> sil2100: np, thanks for the poke
<juliank> Uploaded binutils to https://launchpad.net/~juliank/+archive/ubuntu/lp1644363+1422795, let's see if that works out
<juliank> If it does, I'll re-upload it to trusty proper, and then we can finally build bash on arm64 :)
<infinity> juliank: Oh shiny.
<infinity> tinoco: From artful-proposed, even. Well done.
<seb128> infinity, is anybody going to announce the opening of the new serie on the devel list?
<infinity> seb128: Oh, I suppose I could send the email.  I think after opening on Friday, my carefactor was low. :P
<juliank> infinity: Regression potential = "ld will stop crashing in some cases, which could potentially change some dependencies for SRUs (if their configure test failed due to an ld crash)."?
<infinity> juliank: That's more of a progression potential.
<juliank> Trying to SRUify the bug report
<seb128> infinity, that would be nice, thanks
<infinity> juliank: "[Justification/Impact] Fixes stuff [Regression Potential] Might break other stuff."
<infinity> juliank: There, I've just written all your SRU bugs for the next decade.
<juliank> Lol
<juliank> Should have went for a walk while binutils was building :/
<juliank> Ah well, I can go now, it will take some time before its published anyway. So I'll upload bash to the PPA in 50 mins or so then, and then we'll see if it helped
<infinity> juliank: Fingers crossed.  It's likely a valid fix regardless, but it would be nice if it fixes that specific bug. :P
<nacc> rbalint: yeah, packaging guide speaking quite so loudly about bzr was on my list to look at too -- thanks for doing that! :)
<nacc> rbalint: in what context are you "about to review all the ubuntu deltas"? Do you mean for every source package?
<rbalint> nacc
<rbalint> nacc: yes, exactly
<nacc> rbalint: we probably should sync up :)
<rbalint> nacc: my idea is pulling all Debian Vcs history and all Ubuntu (package?) history to a single git repo
<nacc> rbalint: right, we (server team) are doing that
<rbalint> nacc: using git, git-remote-svn, git-remote-bzr, etc
<nacc> rbalint: e.g., https://code.launchpad.net/~usd-import-team/+git
<nacc> rbalint: we use the launchpad publishing history rather than the debian vcs, though
<rbalint> nacc: nice
<nacc> rbalint: since we have it for both (we can eventually add debian as a trusted remote once we get there)
<rbalint> nacc: is there any doc on the effort?
<nacc> rbalint: always a good question
<nacc> rbalint: i've posted a few times to ubuntu-devel, i plan on posting again soon
<nacc> rbalint: there some generic stuff about the toolling (for merges): https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging/GitWorkflow
<nacc> rbalint: there is also the SPECIFICATION and some README in the https://git.launchpad.net/usd-importer/tree/
<nacc> rbalint: it's available as a snap now (usd-nacc)
<infinity> rbalint: "all Debian vcs history" makes some odd assumptions about what's authoritative.
<nacc> yeah, which is why we initially aren't trusting it
<infinity> rbalint: The only authoritative sources are the Debian archive and the Ubuntu archive, which I believe is what nacc's machinery assumes.
<nacc> well "trusting"  it -- launchpad shows us what was published in the archive(s)
<nacc> yeah
<rbalint> nacc: thanks!
<nacc> if we could do some 'rich history' lookup we can parent basically anything in (with some new code) -- but it's not clear how to do it 'right' for all cases, etc.
<viral_mutant> I am unable to understand the difference between maintainer scripts like postrm v/s postrm.debhelper
<viral_mutant> which one to use and when ?
<viral_mutant> what does .debhelper in the end signify ?
<rbalint> infinity: yes, the vcs repo is sometimes outdated, but I'd like to use the result for preparing patches based on the Ubuntu delta
<rbalint> infinity: considering a well maintained package the vcs repo is correct and may already contain extra patches
<infinity> rbalint: It's not a question of outdated, or anything else, really, it's that most packages in Debian (and Ubuntu) don't have a VCS, and even when they do, the only authority on what's actually uploaded is the archive itself, as we do not build from VCS.
<mdeslaur> infinity: meeting?
<infinity> mdeslaur: Err, oh, yes.
<rbalint> infinity: i got those
<nacc> rbalint: we want users to be able to rely that what we 'import' as a given version is exactly that version as uploaded
<cjwatson> viral_mutant: *.debhelper are autogenerated files that you don't touch manually.  They're removed on clean.
<rbalint> nacc: this is ok
<nacc> rbalint: everything else is ancillary so far :) (but i'm 100% on board with you filing a bug/feature request for other cases against the importer -- note the 'other vcs' case is already reported)
<cjwatson> viral_mutant: General guideline is, wherever possible, try to let debhelper write your maintainer scripts for you by way of its automatically-emitted snippets, but if you have to then you put your own code in debian/postrm (etc.).
<cjwatson> viral_mutant: If you do that, you should include a #DEBHELPER# line which dh_installdeb will replace with the collected autogenerated code from various other debhelper commands.
<cjwatson> viral_mutant: (see "man dh_installdeb")
<viral_mutant> cjwatson: so if I have prerm.debhelper and my own prerm.debhelper, both will be executed ? In which order ?
<viral_mutant> yes, I referred the man page but could not understand the #DEBHELPER# comment
<viral_mutant> sorry, I meant my own prerm
<cjwatson> viral_mutant: You must not write your own prerm.debhelper.
<cjwatson> viral_mutant: If you need to write your own prerm code, it goes in debian/prerm, and you put a #DEBHELPER# comment somewhere in it.  Where you put that comment controls what order things go in.
<cjwatson> viral_mutant: See https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/pkg-man-db/man-db.git/tree/debian/postrm for example
<cjwatson> viral_mutant: When the package is built, all of the automatic stuff is substituted into that script at the point where it says #DEBHELPER#.
<viral_mutant> the #DEBHELPER# comment is mandatory ?
<cjwatson> viral_mutant: You would almost always be very foolish to omit it.
<cjwatson> viral_mutant: If you have no manual code to write in a maintainer script, though, it's fine to leave it out of your source package entirely (so you don't need e.g. a debian/prerm that basically has nothing but a debhelper substitution comment).
<viral_mutant> cjwatson: ah I see. actually the task I have at hand is to create DEB package from source. that source has been used till date to generate RPMs only
<viral_mutant> so I tried 2 methods to generate the deb package
<viral_mutant> one is using âalienâ tool on generated RPM which generates the post/pre inst/rm files
<viral_mutant> and other is to use settools bdist_deb which generates .debhelper scripts
<cjwatson> wtf to both
<cjwatson> if it's a python package then just find a reasonable existing python package to crib from; most of that is well-automated by now
<viral_mutant> I guess the .service files disable/remove etc will be automatically taken care of
<cjwatson> dh_installinit usually handles that kind of thing in normal packages
<cjwatson> I have no idea what weirdo tools like alien or bdist_deb would make of it
<viral_mutant> I need not write my own post/pre rm scripts, right
<cjwatson> in the general case; sometimes there are exceptions depending on exactly how things are laid out
<cjwatson> the design of modern debhelper (dh(1) etc.) is that it handles common cases and you generally only need to tell it about things that are in some way unusual relative to most packages
<viral_mutant> cjwatson: thanks. that really helps
<rbalint> infinity: got curious, actually less than 20% of packages in Debian don't have vcs: http://upsilon.cc/~zack/stuff/vcs-usage/
<juliank> infinity: bash built. binutils in trusty-proposed unapproved queue, needs approval!
<infinity> juliank: \o/
<rbalint> infinity: this is still a significant amount, but not "most"
<infinity> rbalint: Weeeeeell, it's a more interesting story than that, though.
<infinity> rbalint: As they don't all use VCSes the same way.
<infinity> rbalint: debian-dir-only versus full unpack being the biggest difference.
<rbalint> infinity: this is true
<infinity> rbalint: Either way, the VCS is not authoritative, period, is the only point I was making for this exercise.
<infinity> rbalint: If the VCS and archive don't match, the VCS is by definition wrong.
<infinity> (And they often don't match... More than you'd think)
<cjwatson> infinity: Still worth including the Debian VCS history though where it matches; in such cases it's going to be a richer source of history than anything we can put together automatically
<rbalint> infinity: yes, saw many cases of that
<cjwatson> infinity: (Or even where it doesn't match, as a partial history)
<infinity> cjwatson: Sure, but that's also a Very Hard problem to solve.
<infinity> Or, can be.
<rbalint> cjwatson: and we can cherry-pick fixes from Debian easier
<infinity> Sometimes, it's easy to match tag->tag with ver->ver and say "yup, these are byte-identical, inject the commits", and sometimes... Not.
<cjwatson> infinity: Also a problem that quite a few people have been working on solving for some time :-)
<cjwatson> And with git it's much easier to get away without being perfect.
<infinity> Indeed.  nacc being one of them.
<infinity> Honestly, I just want to get us to a point in Debian *and* Ubuntu where we can release-from-vcs, but I'm also a hippie free love lover of choice in tooling, which complicates things a lot when you can't say "you must use VCS X in layout Y"
<infinity> Having the VCS actually be authoritative would be lovely, but until it is, I knee-jerk when people act as though it is, that's all.
<nacc> yeah, the biggest issue i've run into is there is not a canonical (little c) way to do version lookups -- if the maintainer uses dgit without options, i think there is -- but not everyone does
<nacc> so we'd need to store all this metadata about the vcs whenever we add a new one (that doesn't follow some standard) and that gets messy
<nacc> but it's all on my backburner because what we have is 'good enough' for now
<infinity> Yeahp.
<nacc> we do have the notion of 'upload tags' as well, which allows ubuntu developers to provide rich history for a given upload to ubuntu
<nacc> (we being the usd tooling)
<infinity> And I think my pipe dream of anyone being able to upload-from-tag from any VCS and any layout is probably BS, and it'll only work if we impose rigid standards.
<nacc> yep
<infinity> "dak and LP will scan registered repositories for this exact tag layout on this release branch, and if they find signed tags, you get an upload, if it's not laid out this way, sucketh to be thee" is probably the only way it'll work.
<nacc> infinity: yep, that's sort of our plan, i think
<rbasak> being able to upload-from-tag> I think this is achievable.
<juliank> mhm mhm sru-review -s trusty binutils :D
<infinity> rbasak: Oh, it's definitely achievable.  I was doing in in Maemo almost a decade ago.
<rbasak> We're almost at the stage where the imported git tree correctly represents canonical archive history.
 * juliank is too excited about this SRU, oddly enough
<infinity> juliank: I'm not ignoring you.
<rbasak> When it does, then we could switch Launchpad to primarily taking uploads from signed tags instead
<juliank> infinity: That's wonderful :)
<rbasak> And to support old workflows, it could accept dputs still but give that to the importer to resolve into a importer-signed tag that it can trust.
<infinity> juliank: I mean, I'm also not running the command.  But I'm not ignoring you!
<infinity> (running the command)
<rbasak> It's not really very far at all from where we want at the moment, apart from perhaps confidence in reliability.
<rbasak> from where we *are* at the moment
<infinity> juliank: That update-maintainers mangling of control seems superfluous.
 * juliank needs something done before preparing the xenial/yakkety/zesty apt and cracklib2 SRUs
<juliank> :D
<juliank> infinity: It's from the prev upload, actually
<infinity> juliank: Oh, then never mind.
<nacc> rbasak: i wonder if `usd build*` needs updating for the .buildinfo files from dpkg?
<nacc> rbasak: as well as our wiki pages
<infinity> juliank: This fix is amazingly generic.  I'm somewhat shocked we never saw the issue on other arches.
<juliank> ack
<rbasak> I've not been following the buildinfo stuff
<nacc> rbasak: just based upon infinity's email today
 * rbasak reads up
<rbalint> rbasak, nacc: do the already existing repositories match the ubuntu uploads?
<rbalint> rbasak, nacc: i see the bugs with the failed imports
<nacc> rbalint: as of when the importer last run, yes
<nacc> rbalint: i'm catching them up now
<rbalint> nacc: great! :-)
<nacc> rbalint: and if you need something imported, feel free to ask here
<infinity> juliank: My only question now is if we should do this through the security-proposed PPA instead, as this is a regression in security *and* updates.
<infinity> mdeslaur: ^
<rbalint> infinity: the repo/upload mismatch stats in Debian to support your case :-) https://qa.debian.org/cgi-bin/vcswatch
<juliank> Ehm, yes, the last upload already was a no-change rebuild from updates to security
<juliank> It might make sense to directly go to security this time around
<juliank> On the other hand, I don't really care. I just want to get bash building again :)
<nacc> rbasak: also, i had a side idea for a `usd m-o-m` which i think would work (and wouldn't require any of the clone, etc. steps) -- it would just look at the current repo and see if it can do the next merge automatically -- user would still have to verify the diff, history, etc.
<mdeslaur> infinity: you want to just build it there but still go through the SRU process?
<juliank> It might not even be a security regression, though. It could be just bad luck
<juliank> Ehm yes.
<juliank> No?
<nacc> heh
<nacc> that covers all your bases, juliank :)
<juliank> It certainly only happens with a new enough glibc as well
<juliank> I think what doko wrote is that it worked with -...14, but failed with the no-change rebuild for -security in -14.1
<juliank> unless he downgraded the eglibc.
<juliank> But well, as I said, I just want to finally get this bash upload I sponsored last year building :)
<juliank> If you want to push it as a -security regression fix, that's your call
<infinity> juliank: AFAICT, 14 had the issue, but it was masked until a glibc update.  Given that glibc and binutils are both high enough in the security pocket to trip this, I think the SRU also belongs in security.
<infinity> mdeslaur: Yeah, that.  I'll upload it to security-proposed, then copy it to the archive for regular SRUyness.
<mdeslaur> infinity: ack, sounds good
<xnox> juliank, current apt sru's should be released soon (i got slangasek on the hook for that later in the day) and we do have sbuild/autopkgtest in unapproved fixing the adt test failures to make future srus less pain.
<juliank> xnox: Wonderful. New SRUs coming soon :)
<bdmurray> juliank: Is there a workaround for bug 1681231?
<ubottu> bug 1681231 in cracklib2 (Ubuntu Zesty) "package cracklib-runtime 2.9.2-3 failed to install/upgrade: dependency problems - leaving triggers unprocessed" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1681231
<juliank> bdmurray: dpkg --configure -a and continue?
<juliank> bdmurray: I don't really know, but I plan to upload SRUs for that.
<bdmurray> juliank: Okay, I was looking at the bug and somebody had asked how to sort themselves out.
<juliank> bdmurray: Does the release upgrader include -updates when doing the upgrade?
 * juliank has no clue about that
<bdmurray> juliank: Hmm, it might only if they are enabled.
<juliank> bdmurray: The thing is if we fix this via an SRU; and that's not used, then we can just not fix it
<bdmurray> juliank: It is used, but it doesn't add -updates if people don't have it enabled so we'd want it in -security too.
<juliank> Oh dear
<juliank> Maybe someone else should do it then. For zesty and yakkety, it's as simple as changing the version in the changelog entry
<juliank> This abuse of -security is fun :D
<nacc> cpaelzer: rbasak: for `usd merge` -- do you think we should just avoid the need to drop the empty/redundant commits (pocket copies)?
<nacc> cpaelzer: rbasak that is, i can drop the flags from our cherry-pick
<rbasak> nacc: yeah could do. I see no need to keep them.
<nacc> rbasak: ack
<nacc> cpaelzer: i've updated the workflow wiki for the new `usd merge` subcommands
<nacc> is there a "right way" to do release upgrade testing with -proposed?
<nacc> for a specific package fix
<rbasak> I've always done it with a manual swap of sources.list and dist-upgrade, rather than with do-release-upgrade. I'd love to know if there's a better way too.
<nacc> rbasak: good point, will do that for now, though
<nacc> rbasak: and if that is the 'right way', then i think we should put it on the wiki somewhere
<rbasak> It's almost "right". It should work closely enough for most cases, except for stuff that do-release-upgrade does.
<nacc> rbasak: yep
<juliank> slangasek: xnox: 1.3.6 (yakkety): https://github.com/Debian/apt/compare/1.3.y...julian-klode:1.3.y?expand=1 - 1.2.21 (xenial): https://github.com/Debian/apt/compare/1.2.y...julian-klode:1.2.y?expand=1
<juliank> I think they are actually the same diff...
<juliank> I can create an additional bug to track the parts not explicitly covered by an LP bug yet, if preferred
<juliank> (These are one word / one line added, though)
<juliank> xnox: I assume we can actually drop the config change for xenial, you said the problem with spaces in dirnames and apt-key in bug 1672710 only happens in yakkety
<ubottu> bug 1672710 in apt (Ubuntu Yakkety) "apt fails to verify keys when Dir has space, and set via cmdline" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1672710
<juliank> But then again, maybe something else uses that, and it does create invalid config files it can't read back, so it's probably good to keep it in
<juliank> And zesty just gets the current version re uploaded with ~17.04.1 appended
<juliank> CI passed
<juliank> So I'm ready to go :)
<xnox> juliank, re:spaces yes because xenial uses old gpg and old apt-key and it handles spaces correctly i believe.
<xnox> juliank, push the button.
<juliank> Rockets launching in about a minute
<juliank> Rockets launched.
<juliank> xnox: All rockets reached their unapproved queue
<juliank> queues, even
 * xnox shakes fist at the queue
<Unit193> Launching rockets at launchpad, nice.
<juliank> Unit193: Yeah, they parked now but will be relaunched their :D
<juliank> xnox: That was the record for mass APT releasing
<juliank> xnox: I can say one thing: Ubuntu really needs more people who can approve stuff :)
<juliank> or rather :(
<Unit193> s/\ who.*//
<juliank> Well at least I'm here for APT-related stuff and random other uploads :)
<juliank> Although I mostly just sponsor stuff if someone comes here begging for it :)
<Unit193> juliank: Are you core dev?
<juliank> Unit193: yeah
<juliank> Unit193: We had a little introduction ceremony at debconf last year :D
<Unit193> Hah, nice.  My only thing is in the sponsoring queue, and hasn't been in for very long so no reason to complain. :P
<juliank> Luckily we found a room before someones battery run out so someone could do a DMB meeting
<juliank> :D
<Unit193> Hah, meeting at a conf, nice.
<juliank> Unit193: Not to give a wrong impression, it was only one person involved in this on premises.
<Unit193> Sure, but he still had to do a meeting at a conf. :)
<infinity> juliank: "Ubuntu really needs more people who can approve stuff"... Am I hearing you volunteering for release and/or sru training?
<Unit193> ...Or backports even?
<infinity> Oh, backports is a mess.
<juliank> infinity: Do you want that.
<juliank> Unit193: eww
<infinity> That needs staffing for sure, but I stay clear of that team.
<juliank> infinity: Ehm, "do you even want that?"
<infinity> juliank: I suspect it could be mutually beneficial.
<infinity> juliank: Perhaps with a slight tip in my favour. :P
<Unit193> Thanks to PPAs and personal repo applications, backports isn't much needed.  Though, thanks very much for the debhelper backport!
<juliank> infinity: wait, do people usually approve their own uploads?
<infinity> juliank: No.
<juliank> I thought so
<infinity> juliank: But you helping with our load gives us more time to review your uploads.
<infinity> juliank: A mutual back-scratching.
<juliank> That's true
<infinity> juliank: Plus, once I've added you to every privileged team in Ubuntu and you spend all your free time doing my bidding, you might eventually have to take that job offer.
<infinity> (was that my out loud voice?)
<Unit193> I think it was.
<juliank> At least not a shouting voice
<juliank> ;D
<juliank> hmm, odd letter combination
<juliank> infinity: I'd certainly review easy stuff for free, but the nasty ones ...
<juliank> But well, that's also a question of learning curve anyway :)
<juliank> infinity: And yes, my ultimate goal is to be *everywhere*
<infinity> juliank: You might need to put on weight.
<juliank> I can be in multiple places at once
<infinity> Sounds painful.
<juliank> infinity: and re the other thing. i kept delaying my thesis, but I'm close to starting it. Let's see what my load is when I started it :)
<juliank> and in 6 months the thesis is done anyway and I'm completely free for new things
<juliank> infinity: oh, you already retried the bash build?
<infinity> juliank: Yep.
 * juliank was just about to do the same :D
<acheronUK> juliank: PhD in what?
<juliank> acheronUK: Not a phd, only an msc
<acheronUK> oh. wait.... 6 months
<acheronUK> juliank: yep. just realised on the timescale
<juliank> acheronUK: You don't believe I could do a Phd in 6 months?
<juliank> Well, I guess I'd have to be really lucky
<juliank> Like "Oh shit, I discovered a break through"
<juliank> infinity: More importantly, I'm running out of Ubuntu pens. We should get ogra_ to get me some more
<Unit193> mwhudson: Does https://github.com/golang/go/issues/13191 look related to https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gocryptfs/1.2-2ubuntu1/+build/12459199/+files/buildlog_ubuntu-artful-arm64.gocryptfs_1.2-2ubuntu1_BUILDING.txt.gz ?
<acheronUK> lol. always exceptions to every rule.
<juliank> infinity: For branding purposes, my room's door here at the dorm has an Ubuntu sticker on the outside.
<juliank> Yay, bash built
<infinity> juliank: \o/
<juliank> That should make the Google people pushing for that happy, unless they already moved on
<juliank> :D
<mwhudson> Unit193: uh yeah, it does a bit
<mwhudson> Unit193: go 1.8 will be default in artful by the end of the day i hope and it should work there
<Unit193> mwhudson: OK good, I know nothing about golang.  I tried a rebuild against it with no luck.
<mwhudson> once i find an archive admin to beat into reviewing artful NEW
<infinity> Oh crap, now I need to remember how to create a new series in the ISO tracker.
<Unit193> (Eg, added your PPA as a trial for Ubuntu, and forced it in Debian via experimental.)
<infinity> mwhudson: You know some AAs.
<mwhudson> infinity: i've already pinged you once today and it didn't help yet :-)
<infinity> Did you?
<mwhudson> infinity: yeah in #ubuntu-release
<mwhudson> Unit193: are you saying the build failed with go 1.8 too?
<infinity> mwhudson: Oh, I don't highlight on mid-line mentions, that way lies madness when your nick is a regular English word.
<mwhudson> infinity: ah ha
 * mwhudson files this bit of information away
<Unit193> mwhudson: https://loki.unit193.net/gocryptfs_1.2.1-0vanir1_i386.build
<mwhudson> Unit193: exciting
<Unit193> (That's not an i386 build, pbuilder names logfiles weirdly when you use qemu-pbuilder.)
<juliank> infinity: If you want me in -sru and/or -release, *I* wouldn't mind :)
<mwhudson> i was going to say :-)
<mwhudson> Unit193: is that qemu-user or system under the hood?
<Unit193> mwhudson: qemu-debootstrap/qemu-user-static
<mwhudson> Unit193: i'm more inclined to blame qemu for that one then
<mwhudson> Unit193: i think it's the compiler exploding, not the test suite
<Unit193> Bah, OK.  I find that believable...Either way, we can find out end of day.
<infinity> juliank: I'll ask around for concensus, but I suspect that if you have the time to throw an hour or two at is per week, we'd have no issues with training you up to do so.
<Unit193> mwhudson: Thanks for chatting!  This build failure keeps emailing me every rebuild. :3
<mwhudson> Unit193: hee hee
<infinity> runtime: failed to create new OS thread (have 2 already; errno=22)
<infinity> Unit193: ^-- Is that the thing you're asking about?
<mwhudson> oh eh it fails on ppc64el in the same way?
<infinity> If so, qemu-user is notoriously crap at threads.
<Unit193> infinity: Yeah I saw that, but don't remember if it's a different build or that one..
<juliank> infinity: 1-2 hours per week works out fine. I spent more time here today just discussing topics.
<mwhudson> waaait
<Unit193> mwhudson: Kind of amusing, considering my upload was to fix on all other arches.  And yeah, ppc64el fails too.
<mwhudson> i think it's also possible go-fuse is just crap
<Unit193> mwhudson: This is true.  Debian enabled some tests in git that blows up in pbuilder. :/
<juliank> Also, giving me anything to review comes in handy in the 20 minutes between APT CI runs and uploads :D
<mwhudson> "const PAGESIZE = 4096"
<mwhudson> Unit193: yes ok, this is not going to be fixed by the end of the day :-)
<Unit193> Bleh...Thanks.
<juliank> (and the time afterwards while I wait and retry failing autopkgtests...)
 * juliank sometimes really does nothing else than waiting for autopkgtest results
<infinity> mwhudson: I can already see jcm flying into an uncontrollable rage.
<infinity> mwhudson: Assuming that was on arm64. :P
<juliank> infinity: The other interesting thing to do is reviewing NEW queues of course, but that's really coupled to an extremely hardcore team :)
<juliank> AFAIUI
<mwhudson> infinity: i'm sure there's someone at IBM to get angry about it too
<infinity> juliank: We're not that hardcore, we just pretend to be on the Internet.
<infinity> mwhudson: Oh, on behalf of PPC people everywhere, I'm angry any time someone *assumes* pagesize is a constant.
<Unit193> juliank: Oh, and thanks for the APT SRUs too.
<infinity> mwhudson: But for arm64, jcm would just be annoyed that you assumed it's not 16k. :P
<mwhudson> ah haha
<mwhudson> wait, 16k?
<juliank> Unit193: I had to be quick, otherwise xnox would have done SRUs without your patch for ddebs :D
<mwhudson> i haven't been paying attention, clearly
<infinity> mwhudson: 64k.
<infinity> mwhudson: My fingers don't do well in binary.
<mwhudson> ok
 * juliank always does stuff in 4096 bytes, sorry.
<juliank> infinity: The NEW queue for devel is processed by ~ubuntu-archive, right?
<infinity> juliank: The NEW queue for all series' is ~ubuntu-archive.
<juliank> ah yes
<juliank> infinity: Someone should write that thing up clearly somewhere. and the unapproved queue is a different queue, processed by another team?
<juliank> In practice, I only ever deal with the same persons, so I never really see which team is responsible for which part :)
<infinity> juliank: unapproved for stables is ~ubuntu-sru and for devel is ~ubuntu-release
<juliank> that makes sense :)
#ubuntu-devel 2017-04-26
<nacc> rbasak: well that's nice to see -- latest importer picked up the unapplied where it was, and is imported all the applied, so far successfully, so i can do the php7.0 merge
<rbasak> Nice!
<nacc> rbasak: ah i see i had to revert HEAD -- we need an indevelopment feature of git to allow us to skip known empty changes
<nacc> rbasak: but that would end up skipping (potentially) changes that are now empty becuase they can be dropped
<nacc> rbasak: which we don't want
<rbasak> I see, OK.
<nacc> rbasak: i put a comment in the comment with a link to a patch for git that might let us specify it more clearly
<nacc> rbasak: already empty commits vs. commits that have become empty
<nacc> rbasak: but not yet existent, so i reverted from `usd merge` and fixed the wiki
<juliank> arges: I saw that you accepted apt 1.2.21 and 1.3.6 for xenial/yakkety, but not 1.4.1~17.04.1 for zesty. Any specific reason for that?
<juliank> It's a bit odd to have the SRUs for older releases in -proposed without the one for the newer release
<LocutusOfBorg> Noskcaj, FYI I'll sync dhelp as soon as it is picked up
<LocutusOfBorg> after only 9 years seems that LP: #205308 is fixed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 205308 in dhelp (Ubuntu) "dhelp postinst error on gutsy->hardy upgrade" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/205308
<LocutusOfBorg> cjwatson, ^^ :)
<xnox> juliank, we have more stuff to do for apt =)))))) we shall talk ;-) in a second.
<juliank> xnox: More stuff to do sounds scary
<juliank> My veggies are in the oven now, so I do have some time :)
<xnox> juliank, hehehehe =) i had steamed veggies, quicker ;-)
<xnox> juliank, so. we spoke to sysadmins and we have a huge spike at 6am..6:30am UTC from all the pre-xenial machines.
<juliank> Right. That's expected
<xnox> juliank, switching xenial+ machines to that window will decrease the baseload, and will spike the window even more. Which will take us over our bandwidth limit in the key datacentres.
<xnox> juliank, but we had a brainstorm session and this is what we established.
<xnox> juliank, currently we have 1 timer which triggers/does 3 things as a monolithic block: apt update; apt upgrade --download-only; apt upgrade.
<xnox> the first two things, ideally should happen universally spread across the 24h window.
<xnox> the end users (server/cloud sysadmins) care a lot about the precise time of upgrades application. And they do not care when the bandwidth is used up.
<juliank> Well, yes, that's not really new :)
<juliank> What about memory usage during update, though?
<xnox> thus my current proposal is to decouple unattended upgrades application; from the update  & download-only
<juliank> slangasek said his machine went really slow.
<juliank> at the 1800 update due to memory spikes
<slangasek> juliank: xnox speaks for me
<xnox> juliank, i did not consider memory usage at all. And my expectations is that one should not run ubuntu if one cannot do apt update.
<slangasek> juliank: fwiw I think it was ultimately the unattended-upgrades part (auto-installation of security updates) that broke me rather than the list updates
<xnox> slangasek, plus i suspect slangasek has like a gazzilion of repositories enabled, unlike our core user base, which is actually hitting security pocket only.
<slangasek> which I hadn't considered when I talked to you
<juliank> OK
<slangasek> juliank: also, fundamentally, 1) I've upgraded the RAM in my machine since then :P, and 2) I've been larted by our IS team ;-)
<juliank> What is "larted"?
<xnox> juliank, currently i'm writting up a back report with the decoupling plan, and will work on updating the units and/or configs; in apt and/or unattended upgrades. Such that the following behaviour happens for the long running instances:
<xnox> run apt update smeared across 24h; if unattended-upgrades are enabled, execute --download-only straight after; and make unattanded-upgrades scheduled at the 6am..7am window.
<xnox> on boot/resume: if we missed the cycle, execute on boot the whole lot, as enabled.
<juliank> That's what I'd have seen as the optimal solution last week ...
<xnox> juliank, this kind of means we are putting the sru on hold =/
<xnox> juliank, if you want the other fixes in, i can redo the sru's without the timer change.
<xnox> juliank, unless you really want to DDoS canonical datacentres and see an angry elmo =)
<juliank> xnox: Nah
<juliank> xnox: But then we basically just have to revert the change in apt, and set APT::Periodic::Unattended-Upgrade to 0 in unattended-upgrades, and add a timer for that
<xnox> juliank, yes.
<juliank> Although maybe we want 0:00 as time + random delay of 24 hours instead of two start + 12 hour delay
<xnox> juliank, and the unattended-upgrade timer will be in the unattended-upgrade package.
<juliank> Yep, sure
<xnox> juliank, i think two times a day is good.
<xnox> juliank, because on ubuntu it has other effects apart from unattaned upgrades.
<xnox> there is MOTD updates; and other messenging that is triggered by apt update.
<juliank> You gotta realize that there is a timestamp file in the apt script itself, so you could run it every minute, it only does something if 24 hours have passed since the last time
<juliank> :D
<xnox> slangasek, i am also affected!!!!!!! i've now realised why i have random alerts texted to me on telegram whenever my database/webserver are down. And it was all weird to me, as to why they are restarting, when i didn't touch it.
<xnox> juliank, can we get rid of that, at least in ubuntu, and rely on the systemd timer alone?
<xnox> (persistent systemd timer alone)
<xnox> juliank, doesn't like anacron keep persistent timestamps like that as well?
<juliank> Well, the script has multiple distinct timers
<xnox> /o\
<juliank> APT::Periodic::AutocleanInterval
<juliank> APT::Periodic::CleanInterval
<juliank> APT::Periodic::Update-Package-Lists
<juliank> APT::Periodic::Download-Upgradeable-Packages
<juliank> APT::Periodic::BackupArchiveInterval
<juliank> all in the unit of days
<xnox> juliank, so apt can be a cron replacement?! =)
<juliank> Maybe it makes sense to split this into 5 systemd timers, but that's kind of weird
<juliank> The two times a day should be enough to make it run often enough
<xnox> juliank, not 5. Update-Package-Lists & Download-Upgradeable-Packages should be one timer triggered thing. And the rest could be the other.
<xnox> because you do want to download things, straight after update, if enabled to do so.
<juliank> Well, you say that.
<xnox> (e.g. if unattended upgrades are enabled, or download-upgradable-packages is enabled)
<xnox> i totally want to support download Update-Package-Lists only.
<juliank> xnox: Now, I'd really like to have the same logic in Debian, I don't really want to have distinct Ubuntu branches again :)
<juliank> So, I'd like keep the current setting of 6 to 7, and install a drop-in unit from the Ubuntu vendor directory.
<xnox> juliank, are unattended upgrades enabled by default in debian?
<juliank> Does that make sense?
<juliank> xnox: I hope not.
<xnox> juliank, drop-in: yes, that is fine, the ubuntu drop-in can go into /lib/systemd/system/apt-update-whatever-the-name-is.timer.d/ubuntu.conf
<juliank> But we actually should have at least fixed the race conditions now, so that's something :)
<xnox> [Timer]
<xnox> OnCalendar=
<xnox> OnCalendar=<ubuntu setting>
<juliank> Yep
<juliank> + Adjustments for RandomizedDelay
<juliank> xnox: I also see u-u already has a service
<juliank> So adding a timer should be easy
<juliank> Ah, but that's just for shutdown
<xnox> juliank, i think it would be more elaborate yes.
<xnox> juliank, i was thinking to override apt settings when calling apt timers, and in ubuntu at least have something with -oAPT::DO-THIS-ONLY
<xnox> and -oAPT::DO_THAT_ONLY
<xnox> or some such, or more verbose scripts that determine what happens when.
<xnox> i'm currently writting the plan up, and will be working on a proposal of patches to apt and/or unattended-upgrades packages
<juliank> xnox: The script does not take -o options, that's very ... involved.
<juliank> You could use config files, but I think it's pointless.
<juliank> What you want as a default according to your description is APT::Periodic::Update-Package-Lists=1, APT::Periodic::Download-Upgradeable-Packages=1 and APT::Periodic::Unattended-Upgrade=0
<slangasek> juliank: larted> from LART, luser attitude readjustment tool ;)
<juliank> and then just run unattended-upgrades from the unattended-upgrades-daily service or whatever
<juliank> Although, clean and autoclean would be weird in the apt job
<juliank> Can we just split up the apt job in two?
<xnox> juliank, clean and autoclean should be in the unattended-ugprade now?
<xnox> juliank, we can do that too.
<juliank> clean and autoclean run after unattended-upgrades
<juliank> if configured
<juliank> So if you'd move only unattended-upgrades out, you'd end up with update, download, clean if configured, and your files would be gone again
<juliank> This way we can have apt-daily and apt-daily-dangerous
<juliank> :D
<juliank> (OK, maybe a better name for the second one)
<juliank> I guess we can specify After betweens them, so *if* both are started at the same time, the upgrade&clean job runs later
<xnox> juliank, yeah, we will need to do the after/before orderings right, for the onboot case.
<xnox> juliank, so could you please checkout and comment on:
<xnox> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/artful/+source/unattended-upgrades/+bug/1686470
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686470 in unattended-upgrades (Ubuntu Artful) "Apt updates that are uniformally spread across all timezones, with predictable application windows" [High,Triaged]
<juliank> That sounds right
<juliank> If we just split up the apt job in two, we can just keep the changes localized to apt though, and not change unattended-upgrades at all :D
<xnox> yeah \o/ no need to do versioned breaks and depends
<xnox> juliank, u-u service is for shutdown, i believe. not for on-boot stuff.
<juliank> xnox: yeah
<juliank> xnox: Another advantage of that scheme is that I can probably sell that the Debian release team :D
<juliank> "Oh, we discovered that this might cause unwanted spikes in memory bandwidth if a lot of machines update at the same time, let's just do this all day, and special case upgrades"
<xnox> juliank, yes.
<xnox> juliank, "memory bandwidth" you mean "network bandwidth" right?
<juliank> yes
<juliank> odd mistake
<xnox> juliank, and not can, but does take out a DC center we can see spikes to 10Gbps, vs the baseload of 4Gbps and some of our pipes are limited to 10Gbps
<xnox> at which point we have protections to limit the bandwidth, such that #is can ssh into those boxes at least; and end users get timeouts doing apt update.
<juliank> xnox: The diff is stupid, but https://github.com/Debian/apt/compare/master...julian-klode:lp1686470?expand=1 should be it on the script side
<juliank> + install rules and a new timer and service
<xnox> destructive-daily
 * xnox giggles
<juliank> xnox: Well, find a better name!
<xnox> apt-download-updates, apt-install-upgrades
<xnox> ... by definition installing things, breaks toys.
<xnox> juliank, however we should probably not change the original timer name though =/ because $reasons
<juliank> xnox: Yep. Maybe I should also keep the script together and just put the parts in an if/else, that's a bit easier to look at and build.
<juliank> Then we can just pass upgrade as $1 to run upgrade, update to update, and if nothing passed it does all, or something like that
<juliank> Has the benefit of being completely easy to review
<juliank> just do a diff -w
<juliank> :D
<juliank> https://paste.ubuntu.com/24461931/
<juliank> xnox: With the additional timer and service: https://paste.ubuntu.com/24461953/
<juliank> Oh, also needs an adjustment to rules
<juliank> that's a -w git, the unreadable version is at https://github.com/Debian/apt/compare/master...julian-klode:lp1686470?diff=split&expand=1&name=lp1686470
<juliank> Exciting times!
<juliank> I guess I'll just put this in a PPA quickly for zesty and artful to play with
<juliank> But first, my own system
<juliank> xnox: Stuff seems ready to go (built successfully, and I installed it :D), I could upload the branch to artful to give it a test drive.
<xnox> juliank, artful would be nice; many of us run artful things.
<juliank> xnox: One question, though: Does it make sense to have the u-u/clean stuff not depend on network-online, as I did, or should both depend on that?
<juliank> I wonder if u-u works without network
<xnox> juliank, u-u/clean should not need network, correct.
<xnox> and i do not care about msft-fonts-package that does wget in postinst =)
<juliank> It's theoretical anyway.
<juliank> The network-online target is a boot thing
<juliank> and apt-daily-upgrade has after=apt-daily which has after=network-online
<juliank> (and wants=network-online)
<xnox> juliank, possibly both, however the chain should be enough
<juliank> yeah
<juliank> xnox: Currently writing an email to deity@l.d.o and debian-release, do you want to be CCed on that?
<juliank> (and anyone else)
<juliank> Mostly collecting additional feedback
<xnox> juliank, sure
<juliank> xnox: which email address?
<xnox> juliank, xnox@ anything - ubuntu.com, debian.org, spi-inc.org, surgut.co.uk......
<xnox> as you wish
 * xnox wonders surely everyones email addresses are predictable =)
<juliank> xnox: Some people have preferences :)
<juliank> Some people even commit with different emails when working vs non-working
<xnox> some people have too much time on their hands =)
<juliank> xnox: I do this for changelog entries, signing the ubuntu ones with juliank@ubuntu.com and the Debian ones with jak@debian.org
<juliank> The commits all use my @debian.org, though
<juliank> git should really allow me to set up per-branch emails
<juliank> Author: jak@debian.org Committer: juliank@ubuntu.com
 * juliank wishes jak@ubuntu.com were an alias for juliank@ubuntu.com
<juliank> That account is not even used: https://launchpad.net/~jak
<juliank> (and how did John Knottenbelt became "jak", where does the a come from ...)
<Pici> middle name?
<juliank> Probably from the email address?
<juliank> anyway, that was just as unfortunate as jak being blocked on freenode and oftc
<sarnold> juliank?
<juliank> sarnold: yes?
<sarnold> juliank: what do you mean 'blocked on oftc'?
<juliank> well, registered by another user
<juliank> Imagine if I had a single nick everywhere
<juliank> sarnold: I almost bought jak.fun recently
 * juliank would have been jak@jak.fun
<sarnold> juliank: 'jak' is unused forever; if you want it, I'll drop it for you
<juliank> I think it's a bit late to change nicks now :)
<sarnold> juliank: 'jak' is unused on freenode for 36 weeks too, they may be willing to drop it here, too
<juliank> sarnold: Maybe on OFTC, but I'm not sure if that does not confuse people who are both in Debian & Ubuntu :)
<juliank> That said, highlighting me is not a problem - I react to both :D
<juliank> OK, I think I can go relax now, and hope I did not break any artfuls
<nacc> smoser: for orig tarball imports -- what should we do if debian (or ubuntu) switches, for the same upstream, from .gz to .bz2? we correctly don't see the bz2 in `pristine-tar list` but we can't import it, because the same upstream version has already been imported. this happened for src:acl between 2.2.51-1 and 2.2.51-2
<nacc> infinity: slangasek: --^ if you have an opinion/advice on ideal behavior. Basically the importer we have no will use the 'first' orig tarball for a given upstream version as uploaded. But we don't verify if we see a second (different named) tarball for the same upstream that the contents match or anytyhing (currently)
<jbicha> Ubuntu won't allow you to use two different tarballs for the same upstream version
<nacc> jbicha: yes, but debian did
<nacc> well "different" in that they have different names
<infinity> jbicha: We sure will.
<nacc> their contents might very well be the same
<nacc> oh and actually, i found a case where what you said wasn't true, jbicha :)
<nacc> i'd have to go look it up, but it does confuse LP a bit :)
<infinity> jbicha: As long as the filename changes, you can change taballs all you want.  People often take advantage of that "feature" to use a cleaner/better upstream tarball by switching file compression.
<infinity> nacc: So, I'm not sure how the importer should deal with this, but when people switch compression, they almost always do it intentionally to force a new tarball that *does* have different contents, so you certainly can't assume that it's still the same.
<infinity> (I'm not saying this practice is sane or rational, but it's certainly not uncommon)
<nacc> infinity: yeah, that's what i was thinking -- i'm not sure gbp-import-orig can handle this, which means i'll need to rethink that part
<infinity> nacc: The fundamental problem here is that, while VCS workflows (and dpkg/Debian versioning Policy) make a big fuss about upstream version, and tracking an upstream series/branch, the archives (dak and soyuz) literally don't care.  upstream version is meaningless to archive software, all that matters is file consistency.  So, you can't upload foo_1.2.3.orig.tar.gz twice with different contents, but change the filename and all bets are off.
<infinity> nacc: How you represent that eventuality back in the VCS world where "upstream version" actually means something, I'm not sure.  You might just need a different branch.  1.2.3^xz or something.
<nacc> infinity: yep, understood -- i just want, if possible, to be able to reproduce a given build's files from our git tree.
<nacc> infinity: yeah, i'm thinking we'd need to do something like that
<infinity> (Bonus points for finding a char that's legal in git refs but illegal in dpkg versions)
<nacc> infinity: i think we can also do something with the version tag
<nacc> *upstream tag, rather
<nacc> i'll need to play with it a bit to make everything happy
<nacc> infinity: thanks for the feedback!
<hloeung> juliank, xnox, slangasek: thanks for all your work on LP#1686470
<juliank> hloeung: Let's see tomorrow if that actually works or if I messed up :)
<hloeung> heh
<juliank> We should build test cases for the daily script, actually
<juliank> Well, unit tests
<juliank> Just gotta mock various tools like apt-get and u-u
<Unit193> I mock a lot of tools
<sarnold> :)
<Unit193> sarnold: I presume there's no update that you know of to 716535?
<sarnold> Unit193: correct
<sarnold> Unit193: or, rather, none that I've heard
<sarnold> oh I see that's explicit in your question. sigh. :)
<Unit193> Yep, you seem to "know everything" for the sec team, and easy to talk to.
 * sarnold blushes
<nacc> mdeslaur: just an fyi, i'll be sru'ing php7.0 7.0.18 shortly (hopefully today, or tmrw)
<nacc> infinity: ah, it's actually quite a bit easier (for our case), we just need to make the tag names unique, so we can append the extension
<nacc> infinity: that's the only part that fails for `gbp import-orig`
<nacc> infinity: in any case, thank you again for the insight!
<mdeslaur> nacc: ack, thanks
#ubuntu-devel 2017-04-27
<hallyn> is there a problem with the ppa upload ftp server?  (like disk full)  it keeps telling me my upload has a md5sum mismatch
<pitti> Laney: good morning!
<pitti> Laney: http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running#pkg-systemd-upstream xenial-amd64 is stuck in an eternel retry loop; I switched that yesterday to build from https://git.launchpad.net/~pitti/systemd/+git/debian#biebl/meson , i. e. from the biebl/meson branch
<pitti> Laney: I think it actually runs through to the very end, maybe there is some exception on uploading the results, due to the '#' somewhere? I don't think this has been used very often so far; could you please check the logs if you see the exception?
<rbalint> does anyone know how i could add comments to https://merges.ubuntu.com/main.html ?
<rbalint> i would like to add the BTS bug numbers for the forwarded deltas
<sil2100> rbalint: hm, I suppose you might not have the required permissions to do that, maybe only people with upload rights can comment
<sil2100> Since it seems to work for me
<sil2100> rbalint: what do you want to have added and where?
<rbalint> sil2100: so far:
 * sil2100 wasn't aware those needed any permissions but well
<rbalint> sil2100, all: hah, there is an invisible textbox in the comment column! :-)
<sil2100> Yes ;)
<rbalint> sil2100: thanks! :-)
<sil2100> It's not really intuitive
<sil2100> np!
<sil2100> I guess that's ACL-through-obscurity ;p
<Laney> pitti: i'll look
<Laney> meh
<Laney> some of the messages were eaten by the rate limiter
<pitti> Laney: there should be plenty since yesterday morning, though; all of them are cut? :(
<Laney> doing more paging
<Laney> Apr 26 08:24:22 juju-prod-ues-proposed-migration-machine-3 sh[12701]: novaclient.exceptions.ClientException: An unexpected error prevented the server from fulfilling your request. (OperationalError)
<Laney> Apr 26 08:24:22 juju-prod-ues-proposed-migration-machine-3 sh[12701]: No UUID given. Instance won't be deleted!
<Laney> Apr 26 08:24:22 juju-prod-ues-proposed-migration-machine-3 sh[12701]: <VirtSubproc>: failure: setup script failed with code 1: /home/ubuntu/autopkgtest/ssh-setup/nova open --flavor autopkgtest --nam
<Laney> but that one failed almost immediately
<Laney> meh
<Laney> let me just run one interactively
<Laney> I see a few reboot timeouts
<cjwatson> hallyn: it has a couple of TB free; but it looks like you managed to produce an upload it accepted eventually?
<pitti> Laney: hmm, no 'Three tmpfails in a row'? Some of these have retried since yesterday
<pitti> http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running#queue-upstream-xenial-amd64 is definitively fishy..
<Laney> pitti: yes, they end in timeouts
<pitti> Laney: oh, in the boot-smoke test? I ran the  complete suite here, with the production autopkgtest command, and it worked well
<pitti> but a test timeout shouldn't count as a tmpfail
<Laney> sec
<Laney> pitti: Apr 27 08:48:47 juju-prod-ues-proposed-migration-machine-3 sh[656]: <VirtSubproc>: failure: timed out waiting for testbed to reboot
<Laney> Apr 27 08:48:47 juju-prod-ues-proposed-migration-machine-3 sh[656]: autopkgtest [08:48:41]: ERROR: testbed failure: unexpected eof from the testbed
<Laney> that is in boot-smoke
<pitti> hmm, interesting; that's the bit which I can't seem to reproduce with qemu; thanks for digging it out
<pitti> Laney: I reverted the web hook back to the autoconf build system; could you please prune the meson-y bits from http://autopkgtest.ubuntu.com/running#queue-upstream-xenial-amd64 to put the infra out of its misery?
<Laney> pitti: yeah
<Laney> you think meson could have provoked this?
<Laney> some different CFLAGS or something?
<pitti> not sure why -- as I said, it works fine with xenial QEMU, and the exact same repos
<pitti> (and PPAs, etc.)
<pitti> autopkgtest --setup-commands 'apt-key adv --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-key FB322597BBC86D52FEE950E299B656EA8683D8A2' --setup-commands 'REL=$(sed -rn "/^(deb|deb-src) .*(ubuntu.com|ftpmaster)/ { s/^[^ ]+ +(\[.*\] *)?[^ ]* +([^ -]+) +.*$/\2/p; q }" /etc/apt/sources.list); echo "deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/pitti/systemd-semaphore/ubuntu $REL main" >
<pitti> /etc/apt/sources.list.d/autopkgtest-pitti-systemd-semaphore.list; echo "deb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/pitti/systemd-semaphore/ubuntu $REL main" >> /etc/apt/sources.list.d/autopkgtest-pitti-systemd-semaphore.list;' --apt-upgrade 'https://git.launchpad.net/~pitti/systemd/+git/debian#biebl/meson' --env=CFLAGS=-O0 --env=DEB_BUILD_PROFILES=noudeb --env=TEST_UPSTREAM=1 --env=UPSTREAM_PULL_REQUEST=5704 --
<pitti> qemu /srv/vm/autopkgtest-xenial-amd64.img
<Laney> I would have expected a more obvious failure from switching this :/
<pitti> yeah, and there were plenty ;)
<Laney> my test run got to boot-smoke now
<Laney> I'll let it run through that and then kill all the things
<pitti> the CFLAGS are very similar now, just some minor differences in linking
<pitti> but up to boot-smoke it actually does a handful of reboots already, and it seems they are just fine
<pitti> so no immediate idea, I'm afradi
<Laney> pitti: http://people.canonical.com/~laney/weird-things/log.xz in case that's helpful
<pitti> Laney: thanks
<Laney> pitti: want to resubmit a job, for validation?
<pitti> Laney: done, triggered https://github.com/systemd/systemd/pull/5815 on xenial-amd64 (I reverted the meson webhook change, should be the normal barnch now)
<Laney> merci, let's see what happens
<pitti> I see it in the queue,after the snap tests; thanks for your help!
<pitti> Laney: I'd run a meson test on s390x, let's see if it works there
<Laney> you did, or you want me to?
<pitti> I will
 * Laney nod
<xnox> juliank, once we fix xenial+, it will be fun to backport this to trusty. we have a bit more data trusty-updates is the culprit with a clear 30min window.
<juliank> xnox: Well, it only works because we have systemd on xenial. Working around this on trusty would not be a wise idea IMO. I guess you could just move the cron job to run hourly or so instead, that would distribute load based on when systems are turned on due to apts stamp files
<juliank> And rename the cron job to zzzapt
<juliank> (So it runs last)
<juliank> That is, after you split it like now
<juliank> and keep upgrade as daily
<juliank> (though, not sure if upgrade might be failing then)
<xnox> juliank, i thought to do the whole lot. Split update+download and upgrade; and schedule the first one to be @daily; whilst the upgrade at the 6..7am window
<juliank> xnox: Well @daily runs at 6 in cron ...
<xnox> that should work with anacron, or was the bug with anacron that it schedules all @daily jobs at 6?
<xnox> right, yeah.
<juliank> *I* wouldn't change it, seems dangerous to build this logic in there
<juliank> Load hopefully reduces automatically eventually, as people migrate to xenial
<bdrung_work> infinity, regarding ddeb in artful, will you keep the .ddeb suffix or will it be dropped? reprepro stumbles over the .ddeb file extension.
<bdrung_work> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/reprepro/+bug/799889
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 799889 in reprepro (Ubuntu) "fails to import ddeb packages" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<xnox> juliank, yeah trusty is hard. ha, you would think the load minimises, wouldn't you? people on xenial, are those that upgraded from precise.
<xnox> juliank, we are expecting trusty users to only upgrade to 18.04.
<xnox> 5 year support cycles, with LTS every 2 years are wonderful, as we only have half the people upgrade to each LTS.
<cjwatson> bdrung_work: dropping it would be a lot of work in LP
<cjwatson> we argued against Debian using the .deb extension for this at the time ...
<cjwatson> (possibly non-trivial work in apport as well, but I don't know about that)
<pitti> changes in apport would be fairly small
<pitti> in fact, an one-line change in the special case for installing kernel debug symbols
<pitti> (apport by and large works on Debian too)
<pitti> Laney: amd64 succeeded; and s390x finished as well (with a failure, but that's our problem)
<juliank> xnox: So, units ran for me as expected. Not sure if I actually enabled any settings though, but at least the timing works :D
<Laney> pitti: ok, thanks - sorry it's breaking with meson :(
<mdeslaur> Is something special required to upload to artful? My upload is getting rejected because of a GPG verification failure of the .buildinfo file...
<cjwatson> Do you have current devscripts?
<cjwatson> You might possibly have a dpkg-dev that's new enough to generate .buildinfo, but not a devscripts that's new enough to sign it
<mdeslaur> I'm running whatever devscripts is in xenial, so I guess not
<cjwatson> And a newer dpkg-dev?
<cjwatson> Maybe you're doing build-source-package-in-chroot or something
<mdeslaur> oh, probably, yes
<cjwatson> We might consider weakening the buildinfo-must-be-signed requirement; file an LP bug?
<cjwatson> but signing with testing's or artful's devscripts should work fine
<pitti> hm, isn't that useful for reproducible builds?
<pitti> I mean, certifying its correctness
<cjwatson> Yeah, it is
<cjwatson> Hence me only saying "consider" :)
<mdeslaur> well, I'm signing on xenial...so I assume I need to install artful's devscripts in xenial?
<cjwatson> Possibly we should SRU the buildinfo signing change to devscripts instead
<cjwatson> I sometimes run debsign in an schroot with my homedir mounted
<cjwatson> I think the relevant debsign changes were in devscripts 2.17.{2,3,4}, if somebody wants to look into that
<xnox> mdeslaur, hm, i usually build my source packages with no clean on my host system; and sign that.
<xnox> if there are crazy stuff that e.g. ./debian/rules clean generates for the source package, i run that in the chroot; but then do debuild -S -nc on my host, and sign that.
<xnox> so far i have been managing to build source packages and upload them from xenial like that.
<smoser> hm..
<smoser> so i just realize that many things (at least those of my authorship) use distro-info to indicate if a release is supported.
<smoser> and, at this current time, they all say that 12.04 is not supported
<smoser> how should we handle that ?
<smoser> with regard to https://insights.ubuntu.com/2017/03/14/introducing-ubuntu-12-04-esm-extended-security-maintenance/
<pitti> well, wrt. to the world in general it isn't, right? just for  some paying customers, who then need access to a private PPA?
<Son_Goku> smoser: imho, you should leave it as is
<Son_Goku> generally speaking, you're not supporting precise anymore
<pitti> it would be far more confusing to declare it as supported in public distro-info IMHO
<smoser> Son_Goku, thats a solutino, yes. but the specific thing i realized was with regard to creation of metadata on images produced in cloud-images.ubuntu.com .
<smoser> w
<Son_Goku> they should be marked as unsupported
<Son_Goku> because they are
<smoser> which seems like it shoudl still be updated (or people would get old images)
<Son_Goku> I'm certain Canonical has another avenue for ESM customers
<Son_Goku> let 12.04 die with some grace
<xnox> infinity, distro-info-data claims precise EOL is 26th, when it is 28th. And also things have started to claim that precise is EOL... do we need to add eol-esm into the distro-info-data csv?
<mdeslaur> xnox: and MOTD says "Ubuntu 12.04 LTS end-of-life is April 25, 2017 -- Upgrade your Precise systems!"
<mdeslaur> so many different dates! :)
<xnox> such that things can check if they are on ESM or not. Or e.g. does ESM repository ship an updated distro-info-data with tweaked dates to point at end of ESM
<xnox> 25 -> because of 26th April UTC to your local time conversion?
<hallyn> cjwatson: yeah;  it's possible it was network on my end, but it thought it succeeded every time
<mdeslaur> xnox: https://motd.ubuntu.com/
<zhhuabj> hi cpaelzer
<cpaelzer> hi zhhuabj
<cpaelzer> whats up zhhuabj
<cpaelzer> new SRUs around the corner?
<zhhuabj> cpaelzer, yeah :) could you help nominate this bug to xenial - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/autofs5/+bug/1686679
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686679 in autofs5 (Ubuntu) "[SRU] Ubuntu16.04 : autofs takes extreamly long with large number of direct maps" [Undecided,New]
<cpaelzer> zhhuabj: let me read what it is
<zhhuabj> cpaelzer, ok
<cpaelzer> zhhuabj: I nominated, but you need to work on your patch - I documented all in the bug as I'm soon unavailable due to meetings
<slashd> o/ morning rbasak, did you have the time to look at my recent Xenial debdiff for isc-dhcp (LP: #1176046) update since last time we speak (last week) about some modifications you request me to perform ?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1176046 in isc-dhcp (Ubuntu Trusty) "isc-dhcp dhclient listens on extra random ports" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1176046
<zhhuabj> cpaelzer, ok, thanks
<rbasak> slashd: sorry, not yet
<slashd> rbasak, no problem, note that I'll out starting tomorrow EOD for 2 weeks, but if you update the LP and I'll be notify by email which I'll check regularly.
<slashd> rbasak, tks
<rbasak> ack
<juliank> xnox: slangasek: So I played a bit with the services and it seems that daily-upgrade waits for daily to complete, but if daily-upgrade is running, daily would start too (and then fail and retried 12 hours later)
<juliank> I guess that works out OK
<xnox> nah, that's not ok.
<xnox> between dpkg runs within an upgrade; apt update can come in and steal a lock.
<xnox> i used to have this happen before with e.g. desktop packgekit updates / apt gui package manager
<juliank> xnox: This can't happen anymore since the last round of SRUs
<xnox> juliank, nice!
<juliank> xnox: But well on trusty it can, but maybe you can backport it there too :)
<juliank>   * don't lock dpkg in 'apt-get clean'
<juliank>   * don't lock dpkg in update commands
<juliank> Soon we will add one more lock file to dpkg itself, then this also can't happen even if we overlooked something somewhere else :D
<juliank> (and with other applications)
<juliank> (That's https://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2017/01/msg00044.html)
<juliank> xnox: I guess I should add Also=apt-daily-upgrade to the apt-daily ones, so systemctl disable for apt-daily.timer also disables the upgrade one
<xnox> juliank, hm. but that is a two way thing, and one will not be able to unable daily.timer without the upgrade one.
<powersj> xnox: thanks for merging the artful ISO tests
<xnox> as install will unable the upgrade too, no?
<xnox> powersj, no problem. now need to fix static validation in utah, send merge proposal but do not have powers to do anything else about it.
<juliank> I guess you could manually run systemctl disable apt-daily-upgrade, but if you run systemctl enable apt-daily it would be reenabled?
<slangasek> juliank, xnox: so I explicitly don't want daily to fail and retry 12 hours later if daily-upgrade is still running, I want it to wait for daily-upgrade to release the lock and run immediately (in part because I don't think we should run twice a day ;)
<xnox> juliank, i will be testing it extensively tomorrow; i got to run soon today. And we don't publish srus on friday, so it may be best to iron any issues tomorrow, and to do srus next week.
<xnox> juliank, yes.
<powersj> xnox: Yeah, got a merge up here https://code.launchpad.net/~powersj/utah/remove_cdromupgrade/+merge/323337
<xnox> powersj, that is another thing; i have a branch for wubi
<juliank> slangasek: I get that you don't want to run twice a day. Maybe we will eventually, but I think this needs some more planning. And we should try to get a clear improvement now. I guess we can easily do a wait-lock thingy by just wrapping the script invocation in a flock run
<juliank> ExecStart=/usr/bin/flock -w 3600 /var/lib/apt/apt-daily.flock /usr/lib/apt/apt.systemd.daily
 * juliank will also be off in about 20-30 minutes to watch guardians of the galaxy volume 2
<juliank> Eww, flock leaks the file descriptor into the child
 * juliank is not sure if that causes issues, I think we close all fds in apt
<juliank> Ah, we can drop -w and make it wait indefintely
<juliank> I played with Conflicts and now systemd is all like "Looping too fast. Throttling execution a little."
<juliank> Anyway, I'll continue playing with stuff tomorrow, and shut down now :)
<gQuigs> can I get an SRU upload, please - https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pcs/+bug/1673579
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1673579 in pcs (Ubuntu Xenial) "Corosync/Pacemaker: Error when enabling Pacemaker service,Error when starting the cluster " [Low,In progress]
<nacc> gQuigs: looking
<nacc> gQuigs: debdiff doesn't close the bug and teh version is not as expected (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/UpdatePreparation#Update_the_packaging)
<nacc> gQuigs: 0.9.149-1ubuntu1.1 rather than ubuntu2
<nacc> it doesn't matter in this case, but for consistency with our documentation :)
<nacc> gQuigs: are you ok if i change those locally?
<gQuigs> nacc: sure, thanks!
<gQuigs> nacc: does the version number thing apply to SRUs?  that wiki page seems focused on security, /me trying to understand for next time
<nacc> gQuigs: it doesn't explicitly apply to SRUs, but their policy always give sane version numbers
<nacc> gQuigs: e.g., if you were SRU'ing the same version back to multiple versions
<nacc> gQuigs: so it's just one less thing I (as sponsor) have to think about :)
<gQuigs> gotcha, will bookmark that for later
<nacc> gQuigs: since if 1ubuntu2 was in yakkety, then your version would definitely be wrong (but that's why it's technically fine in this case)
<gQuigs> oh, got it
<nacc> gQuigs: I'm also not an SRU team member, but I have been referred to that page in the past, so I think it's a good policy to follow
<nacc> slangasek: can you release src:php7.1 from the new queue for artful?
<slangasek> nacc: I can at least look at it!
<slangasek> nacc: I'm confused, why is it back in new?  I thought we already had php7.1 in -proposed
<nacc> slangasek: yeah i'm not sure what happened, i looked yesterday and rmadison said it wasn't in ubuntu at ll
<nacc> *all
<nacc> slangasek: but it was earlier this week (per rmadison)
<nacc> slangasek: is it possible changing that bug's state caused something to delete it?
<slangasek> "deleted 18 hours ago by Ubuntu Archive Robot: moved to release"
<slangasek> except wasn't
<nacc> slangasek: strange!
<slangasek> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/php7.1/+publishinghistory
<nacc> slangasek: duh, i didn't even think to look there last night
<slangasek> infinity, cjwatson: ^^ FYI, lp claims php7.1 was "moved to release" but it never made it there; not sure if that was an lp bug or a p-m bug
<infinity> Grr.  That's the bug I filed.
<slangasek> which'un?
<infinity> LP: #1685672
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1685672 in Launchpad itself "Copies with binaries from artful to artful-proposed fail if package was built in older release" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1685672
<slangasek> k
<infinity> (Bug applies in the other direction too, obviously)
<nacc> infinity: interesting, thanks for the pointer
<infinity> slangasek: You can fix it by manually copying from zesty-proposed with exact version.
<infinity> (to artful)
<nacc> infinity: it's not in z-p either
<infinity> nacc: It was.
<nacc> yeah, but pubhistory says you deleted it to move it to a-p
<infinity> copyPackage() is magic.
<slangasek> nacc: you can do magic copies of deleted things
<nacc> oh ok :)
<slangasek> but in this case I'll just release your new sync
<infinity> nacc: *you* can't fix it, cause you can't copy to the release pocket, but slangasek or I can fix it.
<nacc> infinity: ah, AA magic, got it :)
<slangasek> actually, I will do the magic copy as well so that we might skip binary new
<nacc> slangasek: ack, thanks
<infinity> Where is this new sync you're "releasing"?
<infinity> Or you mean just doing in general?
<slangasek> infinity: it was synced to artful-proposed and landed in new
<slangasek> infinity: new version from Debian
<slangasek> it is no longer in new
<infinity> Oh, and already accepted.  That was the confusion.
<infinity> slangasek: And it's gone to main in the process, I guess?
<slangasek> infinity: I did that, yes
<nacc> infinity: if it hasn't, that's my next step and i'll need to upload a new php-defaults to change all the src:php-defaults deps to php7.1
<slangasek> (pre-emptive on my part)
<nacc> at which point, i believe we can demote php7.0 and remove it
<nacc> slangasek: thanks! :)
<nacc> slangasek: just uploaded the delta which should allow php7.1 to migrate through and fix the c-m
<rbasak> lamont, ScottK: seen https://scotthelme.co.uk/nomx-the-worlds-most-secure-communications-protocol/ ? Thought you might be interested (well, amused). Also, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14209874
<nacc> rbasak: when you get a chance, can  you look at ruby-riddle? it seems to be failing to start mysql-server (invalid argument --force?)
<nacc> rbasak: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ruby-riddle/1.5.12-4 (and my upload https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ruby-riddle/1.5.12-4ubuntu1) failed to build
<nacc> rbasak: is it because --force is legall with mariadb maybe?
<rbasak> nacc: that seems likely.
<nacc> rbasak: ack, i'm not sure what the intention is, but if you could give it a once-over, that'd be great, otherwise i'll dig into it more tmrw
<rbasak> nacc: could you file a bug please, and assign it to ~lars-tangvald?
<rbasak> He's Skuggen here, but not in this channel right now.
<rbasak> I think I'm meeting him (online) tomorrow so I can menion it.
<rbasak> mention
#ubuntu-devel 2017-04-28
<nacc> rbasak: sure
 * rbasak has a broken '' key. ime for a new lapop?
<sarnold> your 't' key doesn't look so good either
<rbasak> Like I said :-P
<nacc> rbasak: LP: #1686859 filed
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1686859 in ruby-riddle (Ubuntu) "ruby-riddle tests start mysql server with unknown option --force" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1686859
<rbasak> Thanks!
<ScottK> rbasak: Thanks.  Not sure if I should LOL or cry.
<infinity> mvo: *poke*
<infinity> mvo: I see a bug in those snapd uploads already.
<mvo> infinity: meh
<mvo> infinity: tell me more
<infinity> mvo: Unless dpkg-gencontrol is smarter than I am...
<infinity> mvo: Built-Using: ${Built-Using} ${misc:Built-Using}
<infinity> mvo: That looks like it'll be missing a comma.
<infinity> Oh.  Unless the way you create the first adds a trailing comma.
<infinity> mvo: Nevermind.  It does.
<infinity> mvo: I didn't read your make closely enough. :P
<mvo> infinity: thanks for the careful check!
<mvo> infinity: I tested this but was worried for a moment that I forgot something here
<infinity> mvo: Though, that Built-Using might be a slight lie on Debian, where seccomp is disabled. But that's a less interesting issue.
<infinity> mvo: You might want to set VENDOR_ARGS and BUILT_USING_PACKAGES in the same if/else/endif blocks to keep them matching, but indeed not relevant for the Ubuntu SRUs.
<mvo> infinity: indeed, let me look at this. thank you!
<infinity> mvo: Also wondering why you're making your own life difficult by having Ubuntu and everyone else differ on the snap-confine apparmor profile name?
<infinity> mvo: I mean, sure, it was an Ubuntu oops that made us rename it, but... Divergence is gross.
<mvo> infinity: good point, this debian packaging is mostly for our tests currently but there is really no need to diverge. something for morphis_ to check I think :)
<mvo> infinity: I pushed a branch for the built-using, lets see if the debian tests are still happy
<morphis_> mvo: tell me more about the different names of the apparmor profiles, you mean the one with .real and the one without?
<mvo> morphis_: yeah, infinity pointed out that we do not need to diverge between ubuntu and debian
<morphis_> wasn't really aware that we do that
<morphis_> but have an item on my list to check how different we're in terms of packaging for debian and ubuntu
<juliank> xnox: I know you wanted to play with systemctl is-active, but I did a further try with flock inside of the script, and that seems to work nicely (well, apart from it now requiring bash...): https://paste.ubuntu.com/24471873/
<juliank> The script acquires the lock at the start, or waits an hour and if it can't acquire fails
<juliank> For the long running processes, I close the fd so they don't leak into it (who knows what these start)
<juliank> (It's somewhat unclear to me if there's a race condition somewhere if we just check if the other unit is active in ExecStartPre)
<rbasak> xnox: are we planning on doing the openssl transition this cycle?
<xnox> rbasak, sigh, that thing again.
<xnox> rbasak, last time the argument was we don't want two ssl's in main; and at the time neither openssh or apache were ported. let's see what the current state of things is.
<xnox> i think we have to do it before 18.04
<xnox> i see that both of those are still 1.0
<xnox> then again those things might never migrate =/
<xnox> i hope there is like a new LTS release, cause 1.1 is not; and 1.0 is until end of 2019 only.
<rbasak> xnox: thanks. To be clear, I'm not pushing. I was just asked whether to expect it so we can be ready to fix things.
<xnox> rbasak, i'm inclined to say not this cycle.
<xnox> mdeslaur, do you want openssl 1.1 yet? loads of key things are still not fixed....
<mdeslaur> what I don't want is two openssls
<mdeslaur> so if there's still stuff that doesn't work with 1.1, I suggest we wait
<xnox> ... in main
<xnox> or everywhere? because it's well openssl.
<mdeslaur> I would suggest everywhere...last time we had 0.9.x in universe, and people kept using it and bugging us to fix it
<xnox> OMG, there was openssl before 1.0? =/
 * xnox wonders if i was alive or not.
<mdeslaur> xnox: you were 4 at the time
<mdeslaur> xnox: I also worry about the fact that 1.1 isn't an LTS release
<mdeslaur> and 1.0 will be supported longer than 1.1 :P
<rbasak> Yeah keeping one of a thing in main and another of the same thing in universe has never worked out well.
<rbasak> Actually, that's perhaps not true with things like Python.
<xnox> rbasak, will nova be ported to python3 and will we be able to have python2 in universe in 18.04?
<mdeslaur> I definitely need 1.1 or higher for the LTS though
<rbasak> No idea, sorry. I don't work on the openstack team.
<mdeslaur> s/I/we/
<xnox> true.
<xnox> bzr, python2, gtk2, qt4, upstart, openssl1.0 -> oh i wish we can kill all of those
<infinity> mdeslaur: It might be worth someone trying to get OpenSSL upstream to commit to their next LTS Very Soon.  They claim they're to do so every 4 years, and the last was 2014, so the time is nigh.
<mdeslaur> infinity: yeah
<infinity> mdeslaur: If I was a betting man, I'd guess 1.1.1 will be the next LTS, but no one really knows for sure.
<mdeslaur> at least we'd know what to expect
<infinity> mdeslaur: If it's 1.1.x or 1.2, I imagine we can roll with it, but if we decide to push 1.1 and then they say "surprise, 1.0.x is LTSing again!", we'll be in a world of hurt.
<mdeslaur> definitely
<infinity> xnox: As for gtk2 and qt4, I predict they'll die around the time gtk6 and qt8 are released. :P
<infinity> xnox: So, right around the end of the UNIX epoch.
<mdeslaur> it's quite nice that we dropped the gtk3 irc client in favour of the gtk2 irc client
<infinity> People use graphical IRC clients?
<infinity> Savages.
<mdeslaur> infinity: and mice!
<infinity> mdeslaur: Aren't mice exclusively used to control first person shooters?
<mdeslaur> you can plug a mouse into a PS4?
<infinity> You can play FPSes properly on a console?
<ogra_> asciidoom!
<infinity> (Though, yes, you can attach a mouse to a PS4 or Xbone, if you're so inclined)
<Skuggen> I think some publishers asked the console makers for ways to prevent it, though, since it gives a competetive advantage :)
<rfleming> Greetings smart Ubuntu people.
<rfleming> I am in need of your help.  I am trying to find where gvfsd-fuse is called so I can change the option to allow_root
<lamont> rbasak: sad things are sad
<lamont> rbasak: also, wtf hahaha
<rbasak> :)
<dpb1> bdmurray: hey https://bugs.launchpad.net/cloud-init/+bug/1676908 for that bug, what gives the ACL for accept/decline on those nominate series tasks?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1676908 in cloud-init "DigitalOcean network improvements" [Undecided,Fix committed]
<bdmurray> dpb1: Being able to upload the package or being a member of the poorly named ubuntu-release-nominators team.
<dpb1> bdmurray: that's per-package-upload rights for cloud-init specifically, or 'ubuntu-release-nominators'
<dpb1> bdmurray: ?
<bdmurray> dpb1: being able to upload the package at all (as a core-dev I could accept the nominator) or being a member of that ubuntu-release-nominators team.
<dpb1> k
<dpb1> thx bdmurray
<bdmurray> dpb1: The SRU tools automatically add / accept release tasks.
<dpb1> bdmurray: sru developer permission probably required there, right?
<bdmurray> dpb1: I don't know why you want to have the release tasks approved but if it is for the SRU process my point is that'll get handled automatically by the SRU team when they approve the SRU.
<dpb1> bdmurray: ok, so it's fine to leave them unaccepted
<dpb1> bdmurray: for prepping an sru
<bdmurray> dpb1: Yes.
<dpb1> great, thanks.
<nacc> Odd_Bloke: also note that since gce-compute-image-packages isn't in our automtic import list, you're not racing the importer for it :)
<nacc> Odd_Bloke: i think you got some feedback, did you update your MR?
<Odd_Bloke> nacc: Yep, I did.
<nacc> Odd_Bloke: ok, i can pull it in
<Odd_Bloke> nacc: Thanks!
<Odd_Bloke> Just in time for another import run, too, I think. :)
<nacc> Odd_Bloke: oh i see, maybe rbasak already did it? https://git.launchpad.net/~usd-import-team/ubuntu/+source/gce-compute-image-packages/tag/?id=upload/20160930-0ubuntu6_14.04.0
<Odd_Bloke> Oh, maybe.
<nacc> ok, i'll run the import then and it should pick it up
<Odd_Bloke> Oh, yes, he did.
<nacc> Odd_Bloke: https://git.launchpad.net/~usd-import-team/ubuntu/+source/gce-compute-image-packages/log/?h=applied/ubuntu/trusty-devel
<nacc> Odd_Bloke: and your tagged upload is now part of the history :)
<Odd_Bloke> \o/
<Odd_Bloke> Thanks!
<nacc> Odd_Bloke: np
<nacc> LocutusOfBorg: are you ok if i merge libguestfs?
<jbicha> fossfreedom: why doesn't Budgie want tracker any more?
<fossfreedom> it is a memory whore and people have been complaining of high CPU usage.
<jbicha> because of how Ubuntu metapackages work, it will still be installed for users who upgrade
<fossfreedom> hmm - will have to cover via the release notes then.
<jbicha> see my commit msg for a few benefits to having tracker installed:
<jbicha> https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-desktop/nautilus/ubuntu/revision/536
<jbicha> the Ubuntu Desktop is undecided about whether to include tracker by default
<jbicha> it would be helpful if we could measure how badly it abuses CPU and RAM
<jbicha> tracker doesn't seem to be misbehaving on my computer
<fossfreedom> various people have mentioned that the idle RAM dropped from 850MB to approx 600-650.  CPU not sure of - other than a couple of users who mentioned removal of tracker stopped the computer running at close 100% for several minutes.  I didnt though ask what they actually had on their computers and their setup
<jbicha> I think it's using ~150MB RAM here according to gnome-system-monitor
<fossfreedom> k - that makes sense then with the observation.
<jbicha> I'm just used to some websites using more RAM than that :|
<fossfreedom> it doesnt bother me given my setup.  I'm aware of our community though who are using lower end laptops and older computers though.  So perhaps more sensitive to stuff running
<jbicha> I can understand gnome-documents not being in the default install because it's an unusual app but I think gnome-photos is decent and should get better in the future
<fossfreedom> difficult to justify tracker for one app though.
<fossfreedom> "if (g_strcmp0(g_getenv("XDG_CURRENT_DESKTOP"), "GNOME")" --> so those bits in the commit are specific to GNOME-Shell
<jbicha> that commit dropped a patch that made nautilus work differently when run outside of "GNOME" (in Unity)
<fossfreedom> ah
<nacc> rbasak: fyi, i think src:supermin 4.1.3-1 also triggers the empty dir warning
<LocutusOfBorg> nacc, I am, but infinity probably not
<LocutusOfBorg> he don't want an ocaml transition
<LocutusOfBorg> (he didn't want it last time I asked IIRC, fox yakkety or zesty)
<LocutusOfBorg> I would start with an ocaml merge and then do libguestfs and ben
<LocutusOfBorg> I can do it tomorrow if nobody objects
<LocutusOfBorg> Laney, can I steal src:ben merge?
<LocutusOfBorg> (uploaded on ppa:costamagnagianfranco/locutusofborg-ppa)
<nacc> LocutusOfBorg: ack, i'll just fix it up with a rebuild then
<nacc> rbasak: apparmor too
<sarnold> ?
<nacc> sarnold: empty directories in the srcpkg?
<sarnold> nacc: do we do that?
<nacc> sarnold: it confuses git -- 2.11.0-2ubuntu4 apparently has one
<nacc> sarnold: rather than importing it, we're flagging it as an error until we have a workaround
<nacc> sarnold: let me check locally
<nacc> sarnold: http://paste.ubuntu.com/24475776/
<nacc> sarnold: the output of `find . -type d -empty`
<nacc> sarnold: since those are in the orig tarball, dpkg-buildpacakge will complain if we delete them via our importer's build
<nacc> sarnold: but i think we still aren't storing them in our git representation of the (git-)tree
<nacc> sarnold: nothing for you to worry about :)
<sarnold> curious desktop/ is empty in my local checkout too
<sarnold> as is namespace/
<nacc> sarnold: yeah, so `pull-lp-source` etc. can do fine with it
<nacc> sarnold: is your local checkout from a git repository?
<sarnold> nacc: worse, bzr. :/
<nacc> sarnold: ah ok -- bzr may be able to represent those changes, i'm not sure
<nacc> sarnold: and we can do it with git, we just don't currently in the importer, so we've got a bug filed (for dgit as well)
<slangasek> yes, bzr does represent empty dirs
<nacc> slangasek: thanks for confirming
#ubuntu-devel 2017-04-29
<LocutusOfBorg> nacc, everything on my ppa if you want to double check :)
<LocutusOfBorg> nacc, I can even upload if you want :)
<Unit193> cjwatson: You're listed as an uploader to lintian, are you still?  If so, do you think it'd be appropriate to commit http://paste.openstack.org/show/XPnyjaeZ9KtS6w0h6zaP/?
<jbicha> Unit193: why?
<Unit193> So it doesn't complain about an invalid dist, why not?
<jbicha> are you proposing to upload to Ubuntu with that as your series?
<Unit193> ...As you can somewhat read from the patch and context, no.  For lintian.
<Unit193> ('devel' is already a valid upload target, lintian just doesn't know that.)
<jbicha> but we don't want to encourage people to use that for uploads, do we?
<Unit193> I asked, it was fine.
<cjwatson> Unit193: Doesn't seem unreasonable, but probably best to file a bug
<Unit193> cjwatson: Bah, OK.  Figured since you're on the Ubuntu side you were the best to ask if that was OK from your/our end.
<cjwatson> Yeah, been a while since I committed anything non-obvious to Lintian though
<Unit193> Figured you'd be off for the weekend too, and I'd not get a response until Mon.
<cjwatson> Bank holiday weekend too
<cjwatson> But it was respond now or forget entirely :P
<Unit193> Paha, thanks then!
<infinity> Unit193, cjwatson: I'd honestly prefer to delete the devel symlink (and the upload target) and call it a failed experiment, but meh.
<Unit193> I think it's quite handy. :3
<infinity> Unit193: Because "artful" is hard to spell?
<Unit193> infinity: Nah, it feels more accurate (and of course more like Debian.)  Certain packages you don't really care exactly where they go, just the 'development' version.  Others, such as default-settings or artwork packages you target specifically.  While that means nothing in a technical sense (they both go to artful), it's a little more clear as to the intent.  I can also have a debdiff or dsc
<Unit193> sitting around for months and it's just about as valid as it was before.
<infinity> Unit193: Except, it's not "accurate in the Debian sense", because we don't have a rolling devel series like sid.
<infinity> Unit193: sid always means the same thing.  devel changes meaning every 6 months.
<Unit193> infinity: I also prefer it a _lot_ more for "internal" reasons.  Right, there I said "more like Debian"
<Unit193> infinity: And yes technically it's due more to the fact that sid is rolling rather than a development release, though you do upload to 'unstable' for it to pass to testing, which is the "staging" grounds for stable.  All the lib transitions go in unstable, which is 'devel-proposed' for us.
#ubuntu-devel 2017-04-30
<LocutusOfBorg> nacc, I'm going to upload libguestfs if you want
<bdrung> mapreri, hi. i am trying to convert u-d-t from bzr to git
<mapreri> bdrung: I've already done it/I'm on it.
<mapreri> I'm trying to close all bzr-based MRs.
<bdrung> cool.because i stumbled over https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/bzr-fastimport/+bug/1682357
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1682357 in bzr-fastimport (Ubuntu) "Unicode decode problems with fast-export" [Undecided,New]
<mapreri> isn't that fixed in sid?
<mapreri> mhh
<mapreri> I thought I did an upload fixing that bug last week(s)
<bdrung> can you push your git repo?
<mapreri> it's already pushed
<bdrung> I am running bzr-fastimport 0.13.0+bzr361-1 on zesty
<bdrung> cool. let me check it out
<mapreri> https://git.launchpad.net/ubuntu-dev-tools?h=master
<mapreri> bdrung: I'm manually keeping it synced with bzr until I can do an upload switching the VCS.
<mapreri> then will empty the bzr repo leaving reference about the move.  That's the plan at least.
<mapreri> (anything wrong with it? :))
<mapreri> bdrung: => https://tracker.debian.org/news/844138
<mapreri> bdrung: can you confirm (again) that with that fix from artful that bug is actually fixed?  If so I would reassing/merge the bugs (both in debian and ubuntuâ¦)
<bdrung> i can try it
<bdrung> commit bedce37bf87d3dc98b9c20845b2d839c0ac006c3
<bdrung> Author: mattia@debian.org <>
<bdrung> ^ that email address should be fixed
<mapreri> happiness
<mapreri> bdrung: that would require force pushing, not really nice (at the very least nacc already clone the repository and did a git-based MRâ¦)
<mapreri> is that actually problematic for some tool, apart from forbidding properly link of the commit with my user?
<bdrung> since we didn't officially switched to git, a force push is okay IMO
<bdrung> i found more commits with <> as email
<mapreri> I must have fucked up with some tool during the conversion
<bdrung> http://paste.debian.net/930094/
<bdrung> git log | grep ^Author | sort | uniq | grep '<>' | pastebinit
<mapreri> meh https://paste.debian.net/plain/930095
<bdrung> "git log | grep ^Author | sort | uniq" show some "duplicates" that could be unified
<mapreri> That's coming from bzr metadata right?
<mapreri> (it looks nice colored as I have it here ;))
<bdrung> so some fixup could needs to be done afterwards
<bdrung> IIRC I had a script for that
<mapreri> If you can, please do it (and apologize for probably breaking https://code.launchpad.net/~ddstreet/ubuntu-dev-tools/+git/ubuntu-dev-tools/+merge/322863 !)
<mapreri> but personally I wouldn't care so much about broken email in Author..
<bdrung> since we do a migration, now is the best time to repair it. later we are not allowed to rewrite the history any more
<mapreri> true
<bdrung> FYI I want to do similar changes to u-d-t than I did on https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/collab-maint/distro-info.git
<bdrung> (flake8 & pylint)
<mapreri> bdrung: I've now pushed the last two commits, feel free to do whatever, but please tell me fix my local clone if you force push.
<bdrung> k
<bdrung> my grep foo found the scripts I used
<mapreri> bdrung: did you try the python-fastimport thing?
<bdrung> not yet
<mapreri> bdrung: oh, and please make sure your script takes care of appropriately fixing the tags tooâ¦
<Unit193> bdrung: Try https://sigma.unit193.net/source/bzr-fastimport_0.13.0+bzr361-1aegir1.dsc btw.
<Unit193> You may not need it, but when converting 'git reset' and 'git status', followed by 'bzr status'
<bdrung> rewrite script is working now. i have to fill out the repair map now
<mapreri> Unit193: is that .dsc bzr-fastimport with the patch attached to that bug?
<mapreri> I think the fix done in python-fastimport should be enough without touching bzr-fastimport.
<Unit193> mapreri: That's the one that fixes ~3 bugs where files come back from the dead (after deleted, but as I said he may well not need it.)
<mapreri> oh, well, let's just have bzr die.
<Unit193> That is, during fastexport the files are in the new git history as not deleted.
<Unit193> mapreri: Thanks for the merge, btw.
<mapreri> np
<Unit193> (As a simple testcase: bzr branch lp:ubuntu-bots && cd ubuntu-bots && git init && bzr fast-export --rewrite-tag-names --plain | git fast-import && git reset  then tell me that the git import was correct! :P )
<bdrung> my conversion script: http://paste.debian.net/930111/
<bdrung> final conversion is running
<bdrung> mapreri, pushing rewritten history
<bdrung> branches & tags pushed
<Zta> Hi.  Anyone know if it is possible to make an unattented installation ISO of Ubuntu Server 16.04? I've been searching, and it seem like it used to work in 14.04, but no one is able of getting rid of the first "Select Language" screen in 16.04.
<Unit193> mapreri: I don't suppose I've convinced you to try that? :P
<Zta> Ah, got it.
<mapreri> bdrung: great, thank you!
<mapreri> ddstreet: after bdrung rebaed all of the ubuntu-dev-tools git repository, could you please rebase also your own branches for https://code.launchpad.net/~ddstreet/ubuntu-dev-tools/+git/ubuntu-dev-tools/+merge/322863 - to avoid funny things when eventually merging?
<mapreri> rebased*
<mapreri> Unit193: nah.  1) long passed EOD 2) this discussion actually reminded me that I wanted to *de*install it from my system, hoping I won't need it anymore ;)
<bdrung> mapreri, i pushed some additional commits. the good part: the pylint checks works again. the bad part: it finds some issues
<Unit193> mapreri: Dowh, dang.  I know the feeling, but in Ubuntu too many still use it. :/
#ubuntu-devel 2018-04-23
<valorie> cjwatson: we're at RC, not Final Beta
<tsimonq2> valorie: RC is not a release
<tsimonq2> It's the Final Freeze atm.
<tsimonq2> It's accurate.
<valorie> ok
<doko> roaksoax: about candid: is there a reason to use golang on selected platforms only?
<Laibsch> How come pdfchain is not in bionic?
<Laibsch> found it: bug 1757314
<ubottu> bug 1757314 in sdaps (Ubuntu) "remove pdftk (relying on gcj) and dependencies" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1757314
<Laibsch> unfortunate, anybody know a replacement?
<neyder> good morning!
<neyder> got this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/1766247 on debian-installer, you can not put FQDN hostname when you select "do not configure network at this time"
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1766247 in debian-installer (Ubuntu) "Invalid hostname when put FQDN on "do not configure network"" [Undecided,New]
<neyder> Does this is a bug, or a feature xD
<tsimonq2> cjwatson (maybe?): ^
<cjwatson> not me, sorry
<ahasenack> I'm having trouble with dpkg-gensymbols (first time I used it),
<ahasenack> given https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/, why does the first line of the generated symbols file
<ahasenack> have another package name in it: "libdaxctl.so.1 libndctl6 #MINVER#" <--- libndctl6?
<ahasenack> and here is the actual paste: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/rgzm5KjT5w/
<ahasenack> there is no other mention of the "ndctl" string (case insensitive) in that generated symbols file
<nacc> ahasenack: does libdaxctl happen to depend on libndctl? or is it possible still mentioned in your srcpkg's debian/ ?
<ahasenack> ldd on libdaxctl.so.1.2.0 is clear of ndctl, it links just against very few system libs
<ahasenack> linux-vdso.so.1, libuuid.so.1, libc.so.6 and /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2
<ahasenack> in d/control libdaxctl1 has only shlibs and misc depends
<ahasenack> I found this note in the wiki: "If a library package contains multiple versions of library files, you may need to specify the path to each of them with -e for each version instead of using -P."
<ahasenack> but it's the only library in the package
<ahasenack> package <-> library is 1:1
<ahasenack> here is the ldd, for clarification: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/5tfknfKmxy/
<ahasenack> debian/libndctl6.symbols was generated correctly, "libndctl.so.6 libndctl6 #MINVER#"
<ahasenack> I'll fix the other one manually for now
<slangasek> ahasenack: that might be worth a bug report against dpkg-gensymbols, but should certainly be accompanied by a full debian/ directory that could be used to reproduce it
<ahasenack> ok
#ubuntu-devel 2018-04-24
<GrimSleepless> Hey I have a question for you guys :) I think you might be able to answer me, is there any plan for better support for Optimus laptop in Ubuntu 18.04?
<sarnold> probably it depends upon how active optimus laptop owners have been filing bugs for issues with previous releases with ubuntu and the upstream projects ubuntu incorporates
<Unit193> Well, could take a spin and see how it works for you.
<tjaalton> define "better"
<Unit193> "not worser"
<tjaalton> than what :)
<Unit193> (Had to scrollback to see what I was answering.)  Ah, I presume the user had some sort of issues in prior versions, likely 16.04.
<apw> nacc, rbasak, what criterial is the git auto importer using to decide on whether to touch a git repo ?
<rbasak> apw: currently it's anything in main that isn't explicitly blacklisted
<rbasak> slangasek: given your comment https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cloud-init/+bug/1741277/comments/5, is it a bug that gnome-control-center recommends libnss-myhostname and therefore it's installed by default on desktop?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1741277 in cloud-init (Ubuntu) "Not all platforms running cloud-init end up with the system hostname resolveable by default" [Undecided,Confirmed]
<rbasak> installed by default> AFAICT, without actually looking.
<jbicha> rbasak: maybe, I opened bug 1766575 it seems to work fine without that installed but feels a bit late to make that change
<ubottu> bug 1766575 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu) "Drop libnss-myhostname recommends" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1766575
<rbasak> jbicha: thanks. Yeah I have the same feeling about the lateness.
<BjornT_> juliank, xnox: could you please take a look at this bug? it's a regression with one of the latest uploads: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/rsyslog/+bug/1766574
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1766574 in rsyslog (Ubuntu) "Installation failed if systemd isn't installed: /var/lib/dpkg/info/rsyslog.postinst: 28: /var/lib/dpkg/info/rsyslog.postinst: systemd-tmpfiles: not found" [Undecided,New]
<rbasak> jbicha: based on your explanation in the bug, wouldn't removing libnss-myhostname break things like "hostname -f"?
<rbasak> Given that bug 1162475 is not resolved.
<ubottu> bug 1162475 in systemd (Ubuntu) "[hostnamed] Changing hostname doesn't update /etc/hosts" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1162475
<juliank> BjornT_: that's invalid
<jbicha> rbasak: it seems to work here. Give it a try
<juliank> xnox: Did you add the systemd-tmpfiles --create /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/00rsyslog.conf?
<jbicha> the recommends was added to fix an old bug but maybe the bug was also fixed a different way (in systemd??)
<juliank> dh_installinit already adds that later on properly guarded by if [ -d /run/systemd/system ] ; then
<juliank> BjornT_: Note that I'm not saying that running a system without systemd is supported.
<juliank> But I'm confused why that's there
<BjornT_> juliank: i don't see how it's invalid. it does break, so something is broken.
<juliank> BjornT_: I looked at wrong postinst which only had the properly guarded call
<juliank> new version now has systemd-tmpfiles call in a different place, unguarded.
<juliank> *an additional place
<BjornT_> ah, ok
<juliank> BjornT_: But how do you get to a system without systemd in the first place? It's in minimal and core
<BjornT_> juliank: no idea. i just used the ubuntu docker images. i have no idea how they are created, or by who
<ackk> juliank, the ubuntu docker image doesn't have systemd preinstalled
<juliank> Well, the lxc one does, that's all I know :)
<ackk> yeah because it runs an ubuuntu system :)
<juliank> Anyhow, sounds like a bug
<ackk> what is?
<juliank> I think I'll leave that up to xnox to figure out why he added the duplicate unguarded systemd-tmpfiles, but I don't see why it's needed
<juliank> I think it needs to Depend on systemd
<juliank> I'm not surer
<juliank> So with this approach systemd-tmpfiles is required. Whether that needs systemd as an init or not, is a different matter.
<juliank> ackk: the other question is whether it's valid for the docker image to ship without systemd, I'm not an expert on this
<ackk> juliank, I think that's perfectly fine, there's nothing running by default
<ackk> juliank, I mean, it just provies you a base system
<juliank> Well, systemd contains a multitude of helper programs that are useful even without systemd-sysv
<juliank> and if you're installing rsyslog, how'd that work without systemd?
<ackk> juliank, you can run it manually, that's the normal use with docker
<ackk> you run a single service in foreground
<juliank> Interesting
<kasper3> nacc: sorry for bugging you, do you know when would debian guys build the llvm-toolchain next? your lldb.h patch hasn't been landed in packages yet: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=895051
<ubottu> Debian bug 895051 in llvm-toolchain-6.0 "liblldb-6.0-dev: missing API/*.h files" [Normal,Open]
<kasper3> (based on http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs/main/l/llvm-toolchain-6.0/llvm-toolchain-6.0_6.0-1_changelog)
<xnox> BjornT_, will do.
<nacc> kasper3: will look
<kasper3> nacc: thanks! \o/
<nacc> apw: if that was wrong for some linux* packages, let me know and i can switch them back
<LocutusOfBorg> kasper3, isn't this something you should prod debian folks?
<LocutusOfBorg> on oftc you can directly talk with sylvestre
<nacc> kasper3: and yeah, i don't know, you'd need to ask the debian maintainer. It's in their VCS, so whenever they decide to do a release
<LocutusOfBorg> I could upload llvm 6.0, but I don't get why we can't wait for 6.0.1 to be released, the VCS is ready for it
<kasper3> LocutusOfBorg, please consider this if that is not too much of a trouble, it would unblock my build with llvm 6.0. the main lldb 6.0 headers were missing which nacc's patch fixed.
<kasper3> stange that LLDB guys made release_60 without noticiing that the final package is not getting :/API directory on any platform..
<nacc> kasper3: right, but only on debian, which is offtopic for this channel
<kasper3> nacc: sure, i will take it to debian channel. for cross-ref with ubuntu https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/llvm-toolchain-6.0/+bug/1761009 :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1761009 in llvm-toolchain-6.0 (Debian) "LLDB.h is missing from liblldb-6.0-dev package" [Unknown,New]
<cpaelzer> are currently all autopkgtest in bionic failing for arm64 for a kernel issue?
<cpaelzer> I see all arm64 go down with "Errors were encountered while processing: flash-kernel"
<Laney> yes
<cpaelzer> Laney: thanks, any known bug I could subscribe myself to know when it makes sense to retrigger the tests to get things migrating?
<Laney> cpaelzer: Once the new flash-kernel is in we'll retry all of the failed tests.
<cpaelzer> oh nice, thank you
 * cpaelzer holding still then
<nacc> juliank: perhaps i'm missing something obvious; 18.04 -- `apt-get install maven openjdk-8-jdk-headless` and java8 and java11 are installed; `apt-get install openjdk-8-jdk-headless; apt-get install maven` only java8 is installed?
<doko> nacc: 11 aka 10 is the default
<doko> you always get it
<nacc> doko: but why? maven's dependency is default-jre-headless (>= 2:1.7) | java7-runtime-headless
<nacc> doko: and obviously you don't "always" get it, if you install java8 first
<doko> what are you trying to do?
<nacc> doko: a user is trying to install maven and use java8 in #ubuntu+1
<nacc> it worked before 18.04, per the user
<doko> openjdk-8 is in universe, you should keep away from it
<nacc> doko: that's neither here nor there
<nacc> from what i can tell from the apt dependencies, the single-line version *should* work
<doko> is there is a dependency on any default package, then you get 11
<nacc> doko: it's an *or*
<nacc> doko: that is horribly broken if the or is ignored?
<doko> I don't see anything broken
<nacc> doko: maven depends on either the default JRE *or* something providing a java7 JRE
<nacc> doko: java8-jre provides a java7 JRE. and this user does not want java 11
<doko> and there are no other rdeps on any default package in the rdeps?
<nacc> no, as I said, running them one after the ohter does *not* install java11
<nacc> so i completely disagree it has to be installed in this case
<nacc> it feels like apt is mis-resolving the |
<juliank> nacc: can happen
<nacc> juliank: the user is reporiting aptitude works correctly
<nacc> juliank: do you want me to have them file a bug?
<juliank> no
<juliank> it's working correctly
<juliank> or rather, I think we have a bug for that anyway
<juliank> that said, stuff like that can happen
<nacc> juliank: ok, it seems to have changed in this case for them from prior releases
<nacc> some ansible recipe that worked until 18.04 and our java madness :)
<juliank> it depends on concrete dependencies and scoring I guess
<juliank> and hash values
<nacc> juliank: ok, so the 'best' solution, perhaps is to force the java8 installation first by manual, then install maven?
<juliank> yes
<nacc> juliank: thanks, i'll let them know
<juliank> nacc: so I don't find the bug, so if they want to open one, that's fine. But I definitely remember reading about this
<nacc> cool, i'll let them know
<juliank> nacc: The problem is simple: They specified openjdk-8-jdk-headless, but need to specify openjdk-8-jre-headless.
<juliank> Otherwise, the order is undefined
<juliank> java7-runtime-headless is provided by a jre package, not a jdk
<juliank> I know, confusing
<nacc> juliank: even though openjdk-jre-headless is a dependency of openjdk-8-jdk-headless?
<juliank> yes
<nacc> openjdk-8-jre-headless, rather
<juliank> apt is dumb
<nacc> ok, apparently this didn't hit them before, but i'll let them know
<nacc> juliank: thanks!
<juliank> nacc: we really need a minimization pass for that, but we don't have one
<nacc> juliank: np, thanks! that does make sense to me
<juliank> So all we're left with is a greedy algorithm that picks too much stuff to install :)
<juliank> at least it could solve it
<juliank> :)
<nacc> juliank: lol
<LocutusOfBorg> tdaitx, I uploaded cmake
<LocutusOfBorg> but please open an upstream bug for this issue
<tdaitx> LocutusOfBorg: ack, thanks!
<LocutusOfBorg> do you have a bug report?
<slangasek> rbasak: libnss-myhostname> yes it's a bug, how did that creep in? :P
<rbasak> slangasek: j_bicha filed https://launchpad.net/bugs/1766575
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1766575 in gnome-control-center (Ubuntu Bionic) "Drop libnss-myhostname recommends" [Low,Fix committed]
<jbicha> slangasek: how urgent is libnss-myhostname. We were thinking about just SRUing it eventually
<slangasek> jbicha: apparently it's not urgent since it's been in main since xenial without my knowing
<slangasek> kees: hmm, did you forget to rotate the chairs in the tb agenda?
<slangasek> infinity: I guess you're out to lunchinner, and won't make the TB meeting?
<infinity> slangasek: You guessed correctly.
<slangasek> infinity: woo I'm a psychic
<jbicha> slangasek: please moderate my ubuntu-devel-announce email (call for votes for DMB)
<slangasek> jbicha: done
<xnox> jibel, Laney - in your magic bug report of https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-shell/+bug/1765724 I see that, in-fact, despite initial timeouts and multiple attempts, the swap does come up eventually, and it is activated. The gnome-shell however fails to start on said machine.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1765724 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "Xenial -> Bionic - System fails to boot after upgrade - gnome-screensaver & gnome-shell fail to start?" [Undecided,New]
<xnox> jibel, Laney - could you check the logs there, to see if that machine is (a) a VM and (b) is not capable of running gnome-shell and (c) needs to be reconfigured with some other graphics card? (e.g. QXL or which one is the good one?)
<Unit193> sarnold: Here?
<sarnold> hey Unit193 :)
<Unit193> Mind a PM?
<sarnold> sure
#ubuntu-devel 2018-04-25
<jibel> xnox, thanks for looking, it's a VM and capable of running gnome-shell.
<acheronuk> openjdk-lts installs /usr/share/applications/openjdk-11-policytool.desktop which wants /usr/bin/policytool but no longer sets up an alternative for this?
<acheronuk> doko: I see you much on changelogs. do you happen to know what happened there?
<acheronuk> on an artful install I have for example /etc/alternatives/policytool -> /usr/lib/jvm/java-8-openjdk-amd64/jre/bin/policytoo
<acheronuk> doko: so I guess that policytool was dropped after jdk8, but the desktop file for 11 was left being installed and dangling?
<doko> acheronuk: please could you file a bug report?
<forester> Hi. Why my Ubuntu-mate-beta2 uses ip 95.172.71.41 (or ...42)?
<forester> Ubuntu downloads something from that ip-adress.
<forester> without my permission.
<Faux> Never heard of it. Try working out what's making the connection, or what data its sending? (netstat -anp, wireshark, etc.)
<forester> I have take a look in internet. It is from GB. (England)
<Unit193> Faux!  Wondered the other day if you'd be interested in poking at chary.
<Unit193> ..This is the wrong net, but eh.
<forester> I use wireshark. But for my level it does not say something important.
<forester> I mean that I am not a specialist in this area.
<forester> And all that wireshark's stuff do say me nothing.
<Faux> Unit193: I don't even know what that is. :)
<Faux> forester: Wireshark will tell you the protocol, port, and in most cases, a lot of details about the message in the bottom pane. Screenshot it, or work out how to read it then tell us!
<Unit193> charybdis.
<Faux> Oh!
<Unit193> I'm still running charybdis-4.1
<cjwatson> forester: That's the Internap CDN; the snap store sends snapd there for downloads of snaps.
<cjwatson> forester: So you presumably have at least one snap installed which is being refreshed ("sudo snap list", "sudo snap changes" will say).
<Unit193> IIRC, MATE ships one by default.
<arunkumar413> Hi All, anybody familar with .config.sh files
<cjwatson> A few, I believe: pulsemixer, ubuntu-mate-welcome, and software-boutique.
<forester> core  pulsemixer   software-boutique   ubuntu-mate-welcome
<cjwatson> And core as a result, yes.
<forester> https://imgur.com/a/WsKfhHe
<cjwatson> arunkumar413: That sounds like a very project-specific kind of thing, rather than a generic file type that somebody is going to be familiar with.  It would probably be better to say what your actual problem is.
<arunkumar413> well it's related to ubuntu. it's related to adding a new mobile device to the config.sh file. T guide says we should add new device to the config.sh file for porting to a new device.
<arunkumar413> sorry. It's not related to*
<forester> Please take a look at snapshot, especially at system tray (goldendict popup submenu and 2 strips of Typing Monitor).
<forester> Typing Monitor should be only one.
<forester> And goldendict popup submenu should look different. In this case it looks like a sound volume.
<forester> cjwatson: How to disable it? I have a slow internet and it is not possible to lister radio some times due to background downloading.
<forester> listen radio*
<cjwatson> forester: There's no supported way to disable snap refreshes entirely, but you can control the timing: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/refresh-schedule-via-core-config/434
<cjwatson> Actually it's refresh.timer now apparently.  https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/system-options/87
<forester> cjwatson: Thank you. I am going to try it. Did you take a look on the screenshot I have sent?
<forester> https://imgur.com/a/WsKfhHe
<forester> where I told about issues in the system tray
<cjwatson> forester: I'm not a MATE developer and cannot help with that.
<forester> cjwatson: Is it the right place for me to tell about that issues? And is it possible to remove something with Synaptic to disable that updating? (refresh.timer I have already set).
<forester> Or there is another channel for ubuntu-mate-dev/?
<cjwatson> forester: Reporting bugs on IRC usually isn't very sensible, because they'll get lost unless somebody picks them up right away.  That's what the bug tracker on Launchpad is for.
<forester> Ok. Thank you for help.
<Mirv> I'm no longer in a group that can look up oops ids, but I got an ubiquity error with Ubuntu 18.04 LTS installation when clicking reboot after installation complete, maybe someone can click to create a bug report for oops 28c5e9ac-486c-11e8-a271-fa163e171d9b
<Mirv> (the reboot didn't happen, as also indicated by the python backtrace)
<cjwatson> Mirv: That isn't an OOPS ID.  Do you maybe mean the error tracker or something?
<Mirv> yes well on error tracker I used to access those ids at https://errors.ubuntu.com/oops/[ID]
<cjwatson> Oh, maybe it reused the name
<Mirv> and I think syslog also uses oops for it, because I copy pasted it from there
<cjwatson> But if I click the button for that then I'll be the bug reporter.
<Mirv> right, whoopsie reported OOPS ID
<cjwatson> Anyway, I think a fix for that one is already in progress.
<cjwatson> Mirv: https://launchpad.net/bugs/1766811
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1766811 in ubiquity (Ubuntu Bionic) "ubiquity crashed with dbus.exceptions.DBusException in call_blocking(): org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.UnknownMethod: No such interface '(null)' on object at path /org/gnome/SessionManager" [Critical,New]
<Mirv> right, just found it too now
<cjwatson> is the same thing
<Mirv> ok, no need then, thank you!
<Mirv> a fix by didrocks updated 24 mins ago, thank you :)
<acheronuk> doko: Thanks. I asked the person on our forums to file a bug, as it shows up in desktop menus and gives an error when they try to launch it. If they don't or have not soon, I will file myself
<acheronuk> doko: LP: #1766843
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1766843 in openjdk-lts (Ubuntu) "obsolete openjdk-11-policytool.desktop file is still installed - gives error when users try to launch from menu" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1766843
<Odd_Bloke> slangasek: infinity: sil2100: How are we looking for locking in the cloud images?  Any more packages we might care about expected to land?
<Odd_Bloke> (Or have landed today, I guess, we might have triggered our daily before they landed.)
<Odd_Bloke> (Oh, I fat-fingered when switching channels, pretend the above was in #ubuntu-release. >.<)
<sil2100> Odd_Bloke: not sure if this will obviously affect cloud or not, but we might need to do some changes in dpkg/zstd for the dpkg-deb issues that have been reported
<sil2100> But I guess it might be just an upgrade case, so maybe not really related to locking cloud
<ogra_> slangasek, could we rename http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-core/16/current/ubuntu-core-16-arm64+snapdragon.img.xz ? this image solely runs on the dragonboard 410c, the new name causes some confusion (people in 96boards trying to install it to random snapdragon boards (which indeed fails)) ... it is unlikely we'll ever get a generic snapdragon image anyway due to the nature of the bootloader setups on these devices
<slangasek> Odd_Bloke: the one thing that hasn't landed yet that's cloud-specific is linux-azure; I don't know why it hasn't been unblocked yet
<Odd_Bloke> slangasek: (AU)rk.
<slangasek> sforshee, apw: ^^ is linux-azure still blocked for a reason?
<sforshee> slangasek: mhcerri wanted to wait for some of the sru tests that hadn't yet completed
<slangasek> sforshee: have they completed now and can we unblock?
<sforshee> slangasek: some have still not completed
<slangasek> sforshee: can we track this progress somewhere?
<sforshee> slangasek: hang on, was only looking at 1009, 1008 was for all practical purposes the same kernel and we have more results for that
<sforshee> slangasek: still a few that are missing, am trying to see if mhcerri could run them maunually
<sforshee> the results are at that same IP you couldn't get to the other day
<slangasek> right, thought so ;)
<rcj> slangasek: anything else we should wait for in cloud images?  The linux-azure dependency doesn't block everything for us to start cloud image builds.
<slangasek> rcj: for final images you'll want to make sure db5.3 5.3.28-13.1ubuntu1 is published first, since that got accepted instead of being allowed to SRU
<slangasek> rcj: if you see db5.3 published in release, I don't see anything else pending after that which impacts cloud images, except azure
<rcj> slangasek: thanks!
<rcj> and it looks like db5.3 is published.  So now it's just time for Odd_Bloke and I to have a mind meld and decide how early we can start without linux-azure in place.
<slangasek> while you're melding I'll work on getting linux-azure out there
<rcj> It's mostly harmless. https://i.chzbgr.com/full/2712406016/hB630F303/
<slangasek> rcj, Odd_Bloke: linux-azure 4.15.0-1009.9 accepted into release; publishing cycles etc
<rcj> slangasek: thanks.  it's possible I can let automation do its thing, but it was a fine exercise.
<jbicha> yay, emoji in changelog entries: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/casper/1.394
<Unit193> Ugh.
<jbicha> Unit193: why doesn't Xubuntu install fonts-noto-color-emoji by default?
<Unit193> Because we don't want it.
<jbicha> could you use more words (or at least emoji!) to explain?
<jbicha> if you don't install it, users will still be able to use emoji, they just won't look good
<Unit193> I most certainly won't be doing that.  But from the earlier discussions Qt had issues with fonts-noto-color-emoji, so we went with the one that Qt doesn't have an issue with.
<jbicha> because Xubuntu cares about Qt these days?
<Unit193> They don't look good anyway, so using symbola isn't really a problem (and in fact, they look far better with symbola.)
<Unit193> Xubuntu cares about Qt, because we realize our users might use something that's non-default...
<Unit193> We don't ship anything Qt, but we'd still like it to work as best as possible for users that install some Qt application.  VLC is quite common, as are other Qt based applications.  It'd be silly to ignore them.
<jbicha> if you include both fonts-symbola and fonts-noto-color-emoji, the Qt apps will use the Symbola black-and-white emoji
<jbicha> so that's not an argument to not also offer color emoji for all the GTK+ apps you actually do ship
<Unit193> If someone wants to install it, they can.  Again, no big deal..
<jbicha> color emoji support is being advertised as an Ubuntu 18.04 feature
<Unit193> That's fine for Ubuntu.
<jbicha> it's a bit surprising that that feature works out of the box in every Ubuntu flavor except Xubuntu and Kubuntu. Kubuntu is understandable but â¦
<jbicha> oh and Kylin
<Moc> I just tried to boot the latest daily build and the install wouldn't start.
<Moc> I installed the beta2 normally
<sarnold> how about previous dailies?
<Moc> 20180425.1 just got made... ill try this one
<Moc> I was on the latest 15min ago ;)
<sarnold> ha :)
<Moc> brb
<Unit193> There was a world respin.
<slangasek> not that anything we were respinning for would account for it not starting
<Moc> :( Same issue
<Unit193> slangasek: I wouldn't think so, but not been closely watching what the respins were for.
<Moc> I'll try yesterday daily build.. (last one available on the daily build site)
<slangasek> Moc: you might want #ubuntu+1 for support; and to give more detail on where it stops
<Moc> I see the cursor, the screen is black and I hear the login prompt wav file
<slangasek> so no video output
<slangasek> I think you'll definitely want to try to work with #ubuntu+1 on that; sounds like a hardware-specific problem that we're not likely to be able to go deep on here
<Moc> Only the cursor and a glimpt of audio.  CTRL-ALT-F2 does allow me to get out and I can CTRL-ALT-F1 again but I just see the cursor
<sarnold> we have a wave file?
<Unit193> sarnold: Does Ubuntu still use the drums?
<Moc> I didn't hear the wave sound on the load of install using the beta 2 (as far as I can remember)
<Unit193> I thought it'd stopped a while ago.
<sarnold> Unit193: all I've got in my head is mac bootup sounds. I'm sure that says something.
<Unit193> sarnold: The Ubuntu Bongos!
<Moc> Rebooting now to 20180424 daily build.  brb
<Moc> Daily 20180424 installer started normally
<Moc> I
<Moc> I'm new (again) to gnome... I just apparently put my terminal in 'full screen'... no idea how I did that.. lost my left navigator
<Moc> urm, f11... not sure I did that... but could me... trying it on a new laptop and the keyboard is a bit shifted to the left (because it have a num pad to the right), making it hard to type on it so far
#ubuntu-devel 2018-04-26
<Moc> Latest installer not loading maybe because of my nvidia video card..
<ginggs> nvidia visual profiler doesn't work with the default jre (LP: #1766948) - does depending on openjdk-8-jre and running nvvp from a wrapper setting JAVA_HOME and PATH  sound like a reasonable workaround?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1766948 in nvidia-cuda-toolkit (Ubuntu) "nvvp crashes on invocation" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1766948
<ginggs> doko: ^ any suggestion please?
<doko> and it needs root privs?
<doko> is there an upstream issue open for this?
<ginggs> doko: hmm, i didn't receive that message about root privs - they haven't been needed before - will check that
<ginggs> doko: I don't know of an upstream issue for not working with latest java, anbe wasn't even aware of it
<doko> well, preference would be to get it working with openjdk-10, if not we can have a temporary work around. but I don't like the suggestion with the alternatives ...
<ginggs> doko: yeah, I'd rather work around with a wrapper than have everyone update-alternatives, I'll update that bug once we have a better solution.  What does getting it working with openjdk-10 entail?  I have no idea where to start
<ginggs> doko: and it doesn't work with openjdk-9 either
<rbasak> cpaelzer: on bug 1764668
<ubottu> bug 1764668 in libvirt (Ubuntu Artful) "guest cleanup script fails to iterate" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1764668
<rbasak> cpaelzer: is it possible that some users have guests that fail to shut down in production? In that case, what will happen to them after this SRU?
<rbasak> eg. will the host now not shut down, or they'll have to wait for a timeout and then it will?
<cpaelzer> rbasak: hiho
<cpaelzer> rbasak: this is a two stage thing
<cpaelzer> rbasak: let me explain ...
<cpaelzer> before 1.3.1-1ubuntu10.21 there were cases where it could hang on shutdown
<cpaelzer> this was fixed and good in that regard, but the fix introduced another issue which was missed
<cpaelzer> so the new case is that all guests get a shutdown signal now, but it immediately detects them as shut down and goes on with the systems shutdown
<cpaelzer> the latter is fixed by the current SRU
<cpaelzer> so currently people might have guests that shut down but too fast go on and shut down the full system
<cpaelzer> with the fix it will wait up to timeout (as defined in the config)
<cpaelzer> it will not exceed that timeout and hang (as before the last SRU)
<cpaelzer> but it will also not go on too fast
<cpaelzer> rbasak: did the above eplxain what you wanted to know?
<rbasak> Yes, thanks. The case I had in mind can't happen because of the timeout.
<cpaelzer> I have tested and examples with timeouts in the bug
<rbasak> cpaelzer: would it be fair to consider this bug regression-updates?
<cpaelzer> rbasak: yes I think this would be correct in this case
<rbasak> OK thanks
<rbasak> Looks like libvirt 1.3.1-1ubuntu10.18 in Xenial introduced a spurious empty directory called debian/patches/debian/patches
<ogra_`> the redundant redundancy of redundance :)
 * rbasak adds debian/patches/debian/patches/ogra_`
<ogra_`> haha
<rbasak> Or should that be ogra_`_`? :-P
<ogra_`> lol
<ogra_> np backticks ... backticks are evil :)
<ogra_> *no
<cpaelzer> rbasak: I can commit a removal of that dir to git
<cpaelzer> rbasak: so on next update it will be removed
<cpaelzer> (no extra SRU for that
<cpaelzer> )
<rbasak> cpaelzer: I was pondering suggesting that.
<rbasak> But OTOH SRUs are supposed to be minimal and it causes no harm there.
<rbasak> So I guess I'm on the fence, and will accept either way.
<cpaelzer> I added it to be in next submission
<rbasak> OK, thanks
<cpaelzer> not worth to reroll anythinf ongoing
<rbasak> Agreed
<rbasak> coreycb: looking at the SRU queue for bug 1763179 and bug 1760918. I don't follow the user impact of either of those bugs. Please could you expand the SRU information?
<ubottu> bug 1763179 in python-oslo.versionedobjects (Ubuntu Artful) "Returned strings should not be forced into unicode" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1763179
<ubottu> bug 1760918 in python-oslo.versionedobjects (Ubuntu Artful) "[SRU] Fixing UUID coerce function for unicode non uuid form" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1760918
<coreycb> rbasak: sure np. 1763179 fixes a regression in the fix for 1760918. 1760918 causes an exception but the specific exception is not listed in the bug.
<coreycb> rbasak: will get the bug updated
<rbasak> Thanks
<seyeongkim> hey coreycb rbasak hello, I couldn't touch this but I re-tested this few days ago and xenial and mitaka only got error ( I mean can't create cinder volume ). 1763179's desc only need to be changed? or both of them?
<coreycb> seyeongkim: would you mind just clearing up the impact section to make it clear as to what the user impact is?
<seyeongkim> ok will do
<Moc> loru: going to take more than 1 hours... there is no new daily build yet
<seyeongkim> changed it, not sure clear enough coreycb
<coreycb> seyeongkim: thanks lgtm. rbasak: impact sections are updated
<rbasak> Thanks
<rbasak> I'm a bit tied up right now. I'll look when I can
<JHOSMAN> How long time is it until the ISO's release of 18.04?
<nacc> JHOSMAN: when they do, don't pester
<GrimSleepless> <JHOSMAN> You could join the #ubuntu-release-party
<Moc> wee 20180426 daily build is out ! Downloading it now to see if the installer bug was fixed !
* sil2100 changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: Final Freeze | 18.04 released | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | Build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of Trusty-Artful | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu
<Laney> ð
<Unit193> sil2100: Missed a spot. ;)
<Unit193> 'support and discussion of Trusty-Artful'
<Laney> Unit193: be the change
* Unit193 changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: Final Freeze | 18.04 released | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | Build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of Trusty-Bionic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu
<Laney> ð
<krytarik> That's not quite correct either though..
<Unit193> krytarik: Gives upper and lower bounds, which is the goal.
<krytarik> I think one could very well do without it too.
<krytarik> It always gets overlooked anyway!
<tsimonq2> Final Freeze? o_O
<sarnold> isn't there usually a day or two of "please bugfixes only" kind of upload activity?
<dpb1> long live Ubuntu CC?
#ubuntu-devel 2018-04-27
<slangasek> CC-BY-SA?
<dpb1> heh heh
<Unit193> sarnold: Where's the fun in that?
<sarnold> what, you want to do a library transition already? :D
<Unit193> ...Actually yes, I ran ~15 autopkgtests last night to see how smooth it'd likely be. :>
<sarnold> lol
 * sarnold shakes his head
<Unit193> Though, I'd do it in Debian not Ubuntu.
<alkisg> Hi, after installing Ubuntu 18.04, I get a lot of files in the *underlying* file system under the tmpfs /run mount. Should I file a bug report, and if so against what, Ubiquity?
<alkisg> To reproduce: mount --bind / /mnt; ls /mnt/run
<rbasak> Does the timestamp of the files suggest it happened while the installer was running?
<alkisg> My installation is too recent to tell... could someone else check, using the above 2 commands?
<didrocks> alkisg: confirming (it's a very old bug, my install is years old), add it against ubiquity for now and it can be retriaged
<didrocks> rbasak: for me, those files are from my last install, 2012
<alkisg> Thank you guys
<didrocks> alkisg: thanks for noticing this! :)
<alkisg> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1767294
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1767294 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Files are created in the /target/run directory" [Undecided,New]
<didrocks> thx!
<alkisg> Me too :)
* Laney changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: ð§ | 18.04 released | Devel of Ubuntu (not support or app devel) | Build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of Trusty-Bionic | #ubuntu-app-devel for app development on Ubuntu
<krytarik> Tofu topic! \o/
<cousin_luigi> Greetings.
<cousin_luigi> stgraber: Greetings.
<nacc> bdmurray: should https://changelogs.ubuntu.com/meta-release be updated to include bionic now? (for 17.10 users)
<bdmurray> nacc: Maybe? I think we are hoping to sort out bug 1766890 first.
<ubottu> bug 1766890 in gnome-menus (Ubuntu) "package gnome-menus 3.13.3-6ubuntu3.1 failed to install/upgrade: triggers looping, abandoned" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1766890
<nacc> bdmurray: ah ok, just want to make sure to communicate correctly in #ubuntu
<bdmurray> nacc: Also people don't test upgrades a lot before the release so waiting a bit might allow us to find / fix more issues.
<cousin_luigi> laibsch
<nacc> bdmurray: yep, agreed
<nacc> bdmurray: there's been about 1-2 messages an hour, at least, asking why they can't d-r-u yet. So just want to make sure the correct answer is given
<bdmurray> nacc: cool, thanks for paying attention to that
<nacc> bdmurray: np! :)
<jbicha> nacc: also https://www.reddit.com/r/Ubuntu/comments/8fcwea/well_that_is_just_cruel/
<jbicha> the screenshot is from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BionicBeaver/ReleaseNotes
<nacc> yep, i'll link it to the discussion channel
<nacc> doko: did we ever come up with an answer for netbeans? LP: #1763091
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1763091 in netbeans (Ubuntu) "netbeans fails to start due to java9" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1763091
<nacc> there are several related bugs in Ubuntu, and a bunch in Debian
<Unit193> LocutusOfBorg: Yey, Debian #897052, LP 1767402 :/
<ubottu> Debian bug 897052 in virtualbox-ext-pack "[virtualbox-ext-pack] Hash mismatch between package and virtualbox website" [Normal,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/897052
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1767402 in virtualbox-ext-pack (Ubuntu) "hash mismatch or wrong accept-license key trying to install virtualbox-ext-pack 5.2.10" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1767402
#ubuntu-devel 2018-04-28
<LocutusOfBorg> Unit193, just fixed
<Unit193> \o/
<ivo_> Hey guys, there is a bug with snaps, where if I move the hom efolder on a different disk apps don't work. Is this a known limitation?
<dpb1> I'm unsure, but it wouldn't be a shock.  If you can reproduce, please file a bug.
<TJ-> Is anyone aware of an installer regression since around April 4th, for amd64 desktop installer, resulting in F.D.E. installs being unable to boot (fails to create the crypt device-mapper node)? I was trying to reproduce but ubiquity repeatedly crashes for me in a QEMU VM.
<TJ-> Bug #1767527
<ubottu> bug 1767527 in cryptsetup (Ubuntu) "[18.04] Installation boot failure. WARNING: invalid line in /etc/crypttab" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1767527
#ubuntu-devel 2019-04-22
<acheronuk> mwhudson or tianon: no hurry, but it would be great if eoan container were available reasonably soon
<acheronuk> would be nice to set up eoan as devel series on Kubuntu CU that is all, which I need those for
<acheronuk> ^ docker containers
<{xmb}> hello, which package contains the pre-creating of /services by daemontools | svscan, i installed daemontools-run and the others but it isnt running by default
<{xmb}> i mean i look for a package that runs itself as daemon and creates the /services dir in which services get started by svscan by daemontools
<infinity> {xmb}: (a) daemontools-run is not part of the default (or even supported) Ubuntu setup, (b) this is not a support channel, try #ubuntu
<{xmb}> i code, thats why i thought -devel
<{xmb}> i had it there, default 18 apt entries nothing special
<{xmb}> maybbe it was a debian box, .., but i dont think so
<{xmb}> i cannot test currently, but ok thanks will try in ubuntu
<tsimonq2> @pilot in
* udevbot_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: FF, DIF | 19.04 Released! | Devel of Ubuntu (not support) | Build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of Trusty-Disco | If you can't send messages here, authenticate to NickServ first | Patch Pilots: tsimonq2
<tsimonq2> Morning, I'll do this for a few minutes.
<teward> yer off by a few hours, it ain't morning no more :P
<tsimonq2> It's 11:45 AM. :P
<CarlFK> it's always morning on the internet
<tsimonq2> ^
<teward> by that same argument, it's always evening on the internet and never morning.
<teward> :P
<tsimonq2> I'm assuming someone in here would know; the ESM folks might want to be aware of bug 1823444.
<ubottu> bug 1823444 in mozc (Ubuntu Disco) "[SRU] The Japanese Era name will be changed on May 1, 2019" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1823444
<tsimonq2> I'm not sure if that's something they support; it wouldn't hurt to look.
<tsimonq2> vorlon: I'm not 100% comfortable reviewing a resolvconf patch, do you have the cycles to take a look at this since you have non-tsimonq2 TIL on bug 1825194? :)
<ubottu> bug 1825194 in resolvconf (Ubuntu Xenial) "[SRU] resolvconf is racy, which leads to broken resolv.conf in parallel calls" [Critical,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1825194
<sarnold> woah a patch pilot
<tsimonq2> And with that, that's the queue.
<tsimonq2> @pilot out
* udevbot_ changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: FF, DIF | 19.04 Released! | Devel of Ubuntu (not support) | Build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of Trusty-Disco | If you can't send messages here, authenticate to NickServ first | Patch Pilots:
<vorlon> tsimonq2: yes it's still in my inbox
<teward> sarnold: not any more it isn't
<tsimonq2> sarnold: See the backlog from Saturday to today ;)
<teward> there is no patch pilot xD
<tsimonq2> vorlon: Thanks! Much appreciated.
<tsimonq2> sarnold: You even have an item here https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2019-April/040665.html ;) ;)
<sarnold> tsimonq2: looks like a busy weekend :)
<tsimonq2> Yep :D
<sarnold> tsimonq2: I'm pretty sure one of the new guys will pick that one up
<tsimonq2> sarnold: Sounds good, just making sure it's on someone's radar.
<teward> sarnold has a number of things on the radar, including that huge mailman3 packageset :P
<GunnarHj> tsimonq2: Thanks for sponsoring and for the tip about the -v option! Will try that next time.
<tsimonq2> GunnarHj: No problem :D
<GunnarHj> tsimonq2: Great work with the sponsoring queue, btw. Much appreciated!
<tsimonq2> GunnarHj: Thanks :)
<tomreyn> sarnold: I just started an edit war with you on https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOL - ;-) Let me know what you think
<sarnold> tomreyn: was it released at all? I thought about deleting the line entirely but couldn't find the blog post I wanted to find so I gave up :)
<tomreyn> sarnold: oh i didn't actually check whether there was a release. i simply listed all the flavours which were once (amongst those three LTS releases listed on this page) an official release, and added this note for every release where those were not official
#ubuntu-devel 2019-04-23
<tomreyn> whewre i'm coming form there is to make users aware they are not running something supported
<tomreyn> and that there is not upgrade path to 'the same'.
<sarnold> heh, and if there's no users, then there's no one to be dissapointed :D
<tomreyn> i haven't really thought about a better way, yet
<tomreyn> :) not sure if there are any users, surely not of unreleased flavours
<tomreyn> can you suggest how to handle it?
<sarnold> I know ther were folks dissapointed that it was dropped, of course :( but it's a big job .. so I'm not surprised it wasn't revived
<tomreyn> just remove all the grey lines?
<sarnold> dunno. grey at least is an easy way to show that whoever put the table together thought about it.
<tomreyn> it certainly does seem to involve a lot of work, yes
<tomreyn> my goal was not to point out that i'm thinking ;)
<sarnold> :D
<tomreyn> what would happen on an installation of a flavour on an LTS release when a new Ubuntu LTS is released, do they get a notice?
<tomreyn> what would happen on an installation of a flavour on an LTS release when a new Ubuntu LTS is released, but not for this flavour, do they get a notice?
<tomreyn> ^ slightly fixed logic
<sarnold> tsimonq2: ^^ this seems like one you'd know, any ideas?
<tsimonq2> tomreyn: Yes.
<tsimonq2> tomreyn: This is the same reason why each flavor doesn't have a custom GRUB entry.
<tsimonq2> tomreyn: The base is updated; so is everything on top of it.
<tsimonq2> sarnold: Thanks!
<tomreyn> Aha, thanks tsimonq2
<tsimonq2> No problem :)
<tomreyn> So then I guess we don't actually need the grey lines.
<tomreyn> we also have the per release 'official flavours' links above the tables, that covers it.
<tomreyn> more opinions?
<sarnold> tsimonq2: hmm.. if a flavour's metapackage is missing, would do-release-upgrade remove the thing and any packages that no longer exist? or would it just carry over the old packages from the currently-installed release?
<tsimonq2> There's a hardcoded list; it probably wouldn't *remove* it
<tomreyn> so you'd end up with extra packages in   ubuntu-support-status --show-unsupported   's "No longer downloadable" paragraph?
<tomreyn> hmm maybe i just made up a different scenario. keep discussing yours, i'll stand back.
<tomreyn> so i think it's two questions: if you come from e.g. Mythbuntu on 16.04, and upgrade to 18.04, then there will be no longer a mythbuntu-desktop package (I just checked with rmadison, it exists in xenial but not bionic). does this mean that any packages which existed in 16.04 as part of the Mythbuntu installation (1) and still exist in the community maintained sections in 18.04  or (2) no longer exist in 18.04 at all    are removed?
<tomreyn> tsimonq2: ^
<tsimonq2> tomreyn: They are on the local system but not in the archive.
<tsimonq2> bdmurray: Please confirm ^
<tomreyn> uh, so effectively you grow vulnerabilities without an upgrade path?
<TJ-> That's the usual result when packages are removed from the archive
<rbasak> seb128: ah, fair enough, sorry.
<seb128> rbasak, no worry ;)
<ddstreet> rbasak systemd from usd-import-team repo seems out of date; is the git-ubuntu importing paused until eoan is ready?
<rbasak> ddstreet: it's known broken. I'm working on a fix.
<ddstreet> ah
<ddstreet> ok
<ddstreet> thnx!
<rbasak> (not eoan related)
<tomreyn> a couple users were asking what to putinto the secure boot password prompt and whether they'd need to remember this password lately: https://i.stack.imgur.com/cCTiK.png
<tomreyn> IMO, despite the "Learn more..." link this screen creates a serious issue for those users. Many will not keep the passphrase they enter there, will try to rmemeber it but forget it since they aren't ever prompted for it until they forgot.
<tomreyn> (this image is from 16.04, but i assume it looks similar on later installations still)
<tomreyn> It should at least say something like "this password is saved into your firmware and xyou need to store it in a secure place where you will find it in years from now.
<rbasak> tomreyn: file a bug against ubiquity please?
<tomreyn> will do
<tomreyn> bug 1826026
<ubottu> bug 1826026 in ubiquity (Ubuntu) "Secure Boot initialization UI needs improvements" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1826026
<tomreyn> sarnold / tsimonq2 / bdmurray: should we file a bug about what we discussed here yesterday, too?
<tomreyn> (unsupported packages may remain installed when release upgrading)
<bdmurray> tomreyn: if its important to you sure
<tomreyn> personally, i know how to recover form this, but most people we support in #uubntu don't even know they have such apckages, and that they could cause not just only dependency resolver but also security issues.
<tomreyn> so i guess it's important to me, yes. ;-)
<vorlon> seb128: hmm, my slow unlock screen has resurfaced; it's not linear w/ the number of notifications, but I'm not sure what it is
<tomreyn> sarnold, tsimonq2: i tried to file what we discussed yesterday here: bug 1826044 - would appreciate any comments - thanks.
<ubottu> bug 1826044 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "Packages unavailable in target release should be removed" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1826044
<sarnold> tomreyn: wonderful! thanks
<tomreyn> :) and thanks for your comment on 1826026, too.
<sarnold> I hope it made sense
<vorlon> infinity, stgraber, kees, mdeslaur: meeting today?
<mdeslaur> sure
<seb128> vorlon, but clearing the notifications fixes it?
<vorlon> seb128: this time, no
<vorlon> so I don't know what's going on or how to debug it
<seb128> :-/
<seb128> there is nothing special/no js warnings in the journal corresponding to the slowness?
<vorlon> seb128: ok, found some evidence pointing to fprintd
<seb128> vorlon, ah, nice!
<vorlon> fsvo ;
<vorlon> ;)
#ubuntu-devel 2019-04-24
<sarnold> is there a process in place for doing updates to broken translations? I opened tasks for both ubuntu translations and the language-pack-de and language-pack-de-base packages: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/language-pack-de/+bug/1824724
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1824724 in language-pack-de-base (Ubuntu) "aa-logprof: german translation: ERROR: PromptUser: UngÃ¼ltiges TastenkÃ¼rzel fÃ¼r V: Ãnderungen ansehen" [Undecided,New]
<sarnold> the ubuntu german translators launchpad group page asked to subscribe them to a new bug .. so I've done that, but now I'm second guessing if that's how these are usually handled
<tsimonq2> sarnold: I'd ask Gunnar but he isn't around, hmm...
<sarnold> normally the translations Just Work so it took me a while to even figure out this much :)
<tsimonq2> sarnold: My best guess is, get a debdiff to sponsor and I can upload.
<sarnold> it's amazing the things that are easy to take for granted
<tsimonq2> Translation updates are suitable for SRUs, last time I checked.
<tsimonq2> Right heh :)
<sarnold> on eg https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/bionic/+source/apparmor/+pots/apparmor-utils/de/205/+translate there's a handy field for "new suggestion" -- it might be easier to go this route than a debdiff, which might lose the changes on the next update
<sarnold> but if that would only ever make it into the devel release, then ..
<tsimonq2> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/bionic/+source/apparmor/+pots/apparmor-utils says
<tsimonq2> Owner: Adam Conrad
<tsimonq2> infinity could know. ;)
<sarnold> it's fun watching all his little badges load on his launchpad page
<tsimonq2> haha :)
<sarnold> https://launchpad.net/~disgusting-and-terrible-development
<tsimonq2> TIL Adam likes pie. I would be curious to see which flavor is his favorite.
<tsimonq2> :P
<tsimonq2> sarnold: hahahaha
<Unit193> Pumpkin, obviously.
<tsimonq2> I really like apple.
<tsimonq2> Pumpkin is a close second.
<tsimonq2> Oh, and it reminds me of this, from like a decade ago: https://youtu.be/tKB4h9gvmm0?t=8s
<sarnold> and my phone is now playing a song titled Mykola Ne Pie! coincidence? I think not!
<sarnold> tsimonq2: ha! did you perform a gunnar summoning dance? :) https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1824724
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1824724 in language-pack-de-base (Ubuntu) "aa-logprof: german translation: ERROR: PromptUser: UngÃ¼ltiges TastenkÃ¼rzel fÃ¼r V: Ãnderungen ansehen" [Undecided,New]
<Unit193> > 0 popcon vote, not worth a SRU hassle. \o/
<Unit193> <Unit193> https://github.com/insanum/gcalcli/issues/440
<Unit193> <ubot93> Issue 440 in insanum/gcalcli "quick --details [shorturl|url] broken because of Google shortener shutdown?" [Closed]
<tsimonq2> LOL
<tsimonq2> Nice :)
<wxl> i bet you adam likes humble pie
<wxl> i prefer rhubarb. and not cut with strawberry.
<tsimonq2> Good choice.
<wxl> a very close second is sour cream lemon
<tsimonq2> What's the difference between sour cream lemon and regular lemon? :P
<wxl> more sourness
<wxl> you might sense a theme here
<tsimonq2> Are you one of those people who drinks coffee and tea with no sugar? XD
<wxl> DUH
<wxl> (for a chain that serves food on par with denny's) this is surprisingly good https://sharis.com/portfolio-item/lemon-sour-cream/?lpw=12228
<tsimonq2> wxl: Maybe you should come to LFNW and we can have some pie :D
<tsimonq2> cjwatson: Would you object to a conversion of MoM to Git? I would assume it only needs a re-clone on prod, correct?
<wxl> maybe.....
<cjwatson> tsimonq2: not especially and I think it was already somewhere on my to-do list.  I'll sort it out this week
<Laney> bdmurray: Any thoughts on ~canonical-desktop-team joining bug control? I see server and kernel already have that.
<rbasak> Laney: sounds like a good idea. Do you know about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl#Requirements_for_Teams ?
<Laney> rbasak: Yeah. I was hoping to get the nod before writing an email. :P
<rbasak> Fair enough :)
<ddstreet> rbasak seems git-ubuntu imports still aren't fixed?  i assume it might take a while and i should switch back to good-old pull-lp-source for now...?
<rbasak> ddstreet: I have a local not-ready-to-land fix, but have been pulled in various directions so haven't had a chance to get it polished yet.
<rbasak> I can give you a patch if you want to import locally to get by.
<ddstreet> nah i can just use pull-lp for now, thnx tho
<ahasenack> rbasak: a restart doesn't fix it temporarily?
<rbasak> ahasenack: I tried a manual import and that didn't seem to complete in any reasonable time
<rbasak> I'm still puzzled as to what changed to make this a problem.
<ahasenack> rbasak: is it a specific package perhaps?
<ahasenack> or any
<rbasak> But reducing the excessive number of API calls made seems to be the answer.
<rbasak> I don't believe it's a specific package but I haven't tested.
<rbasak> (I reproduced on casper, which somebody reported as broken, which wasn't in the set it was stuck on AFAIK)
<bdmurray> Laney: its fine with me but iirc there is a process for teams joining it
<Laney> bdmurray: right, it's documented on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl#Requirements_for_Teams
<Laney> can't see how it should be a problem for that team so I'll send a mail now
<Laney> didrocks: seb128: kenvandine: any of you want to be a representative for this process? (not sure what it involves - being told off by bdmurray if team members triage bugs wrong? :>)
<rbasak> AIUI, the representative is supposed to ensure that o ther team members (eg. newcomers) triage bugs correctly.
<rbasak> That's how I treat it for ~canonical-server anyway.
<bdmurray> Laney: also explaining educating other team members
<bdmurray> explaining or educating?
<Laney> ah right, well I suspect in practice it'll be for onboarding new team members and various people will do that
<seb128> Laney, fine with me
<Laney> e.g. oSoMoN is doing such for marcustomlinson atm
<seb128> btw do we require our new members to sign the code of conduct?
<Laney> dunno, but we'll need to to be compliant with this process :-)
<bdmurray> I'd hope so ;-)
<seb128> right, I was just reading it and wondering if we do so
<seb128> is that on the new staff thing?
<seb128> because we don't hint about that in particular in desktop afaik
<Laney> right, also not sure that (e.g.) the DMB rigorously enforce that either
<marcustomlinson> seb128: we should be signing the code of conduct yes
<seb128> marcustomlinson, you mean it was part of the onboard steps you got from HR?
<marcustomlinson> yes
<seb128> k, good
<seb128> thx
<seb128> I don't even know where to check if everyone in the team signed
<marcustomlinson> https://sites.google.com/a/canonical.com/about-canonical/home/new-starter-tasks
<seb128> nothing obvious on https://launchpad.net/codeofconduct
<marcustomlinson> sorry that link was not the answer to your last question
<Laney> there's person.is_ubuntu_coc_signer on the LP API
<didrocks> Laney: fine with giving a help when needed
<Laney> https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/xwQCFhStFG/
 * Laney sees a missing person in that list ;-)
<Laney> s/crap grammar/good grammar/
<seb128> Laney, thx for checking :)
<marcustomlinson> Laney: https://launchpad.net/~marcustomlinson
<marcustomlinson> I have signed
<marcustomlinson> ah I'm not even a member of canonical-desktop-team
<Laney> yep, that's what I pointed out
<Laney> fixed
<marcustomlinson> yay
<seb128> we have quite some staff that didn't sign apparently...
<Laney> you checked a different team?
<seb128> ~canonical
<seb128> but most of them probably don't do direct distro work
<Laney> ubuntu-dev is actually all good, impressively
<seb128> woot :)
<Laney> bdmurray: ok, sent (I don't think I'm a member of that list so it may need to be moderated)
<bdmurray> Laney: I'll keep an eye out
<bdmurray> where should bug 1826196 go?
<ubottu> bug 1826196 in ubuntu-release-upgrader (Ubuntu) "The Dock cannot scroll without a mouse when multiple programs are open " [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1826196
<Laney> gnome-shell-extension-ubuntu-dock
<tsimonq2> cjwatson: Thanks!
<ddstreet> xnox so what's the deal with ubuntu-core-dev/systemd git repo, all the hashes are different from git-ubuntu imported repo; what's the coredev repo used for?  why not do merge proposals against the git-ubuntu repo instead?
<xnox> ddstreet, git-ubuntu one is kind of useless. it's read only and is exact copy of the archive. one can make merge proposals against it, but nobody can actually merge or push things into it.
<ddstreet> xnox right, but you can keep a copy of it and update your copy, then rebase or force-push once git-ubuntu repo is updated
<xnox> ddstreet, the ubuntu-core-dev one shares history with the debian's packaging on salsa, and uses the same packaging as they do (gbp pq). And is thus used to merge with debian.
<xnox> i find it easier to merge with debian, using the same history as they do.
<xnox> because merges usually involve ~100 differences in debian/patches/series + changes in the rest of the debian/ tree
<xnox> and i try to forward ubuntu delta to debian / upstream to minimize differences but we keep on growing changes due to Ubuntu decisions to do things with resolved, netplan, etc.
<xnox> plus there are scripts for easier cherrypicking upstream commits into the ubuntu-core-dev tree
<vorlon> yes, until git-ubuntu can handle rich history from Debian and from maintainers, it's never going to be more than read-only
<xnox> ./debian/git-cherry-pick automates majority of "take that commit from upstream" without needing to manually twiddle with anything.
<vorlon> (and when I say "handle", I mean "handle in a way that doesn't require a small set of developers on the ubuntu-server team to approve your merges")
<ddstreet> xnox why can't you use normal git cherry-pick to get something from debian's repo?
<xnox> ddstreet, i don't need anything from debian's repo. that scripts cherrypicks from upstream, and generates patch into the upstream cherrypicks patch stack of gbp-pq before debian & ubuntu sauce. and injects it in the right place in debian/patches/series
<xnox> ddstreet, from debian i just do $ git merge
<ddstreet> ok
<ddstreet> welp for me, working on the git-ubuntu repo seems much easier than working on the coredev repo, so i'll keep doing that; the difficulty there is if i wanted to open a MP to the coredev repo, i'd have to rebase the patches
<ddstreet> basically create a whole new branch just for the coredev repo, cherry-pick my changes
<xnox> vorlon, dgit kind of does it well. the rich history is merged, and the special tags are used for bit-to-bit identical uploads to the archive. And if your rich history is not bit-to-bit identical, it is used to merge with prestine one.
<xnox> ddstreet, i don't care about merge proposals to the coredev repo.
<xnox> ddstreet, if and when it is out of date w.r.t. the archive i just do $ gbp import-dsc to bring it up to speed, and fix thing up if needed.
<xnox> ddstreet, and i have been asked to like automate updating the coredev repo with import-dsc commits, such that it always matches the archive.
<ddstreet> yeah keeping it up to date would be nice, but the hash difference still is a pain for me
<xnox> ddstreet, what do you like about git-ubuntu tree? or is it simply the fact that you don't (want to) use git-buildpackage patch-queue tooling?
<xnox> ddstreet, or why do feel the need to use both repos, instead of just one of them?
<ddstreet> i use git-ubuntu for all other pkgs (that are imported) so this special-cases things
<ddstreet> no, if you don't care about mp to the coredev repo, i have no need to use it
<ddstreet> just wondering
<xnox> just use git-ubuntu for systemd too.... and don't special case anything, and never look at the coredev one?!
<ddstreet> yep that's what i'll do :)
<ddstreet> and why i was asking what is was for ;-)
<xnox> there is no "great" way to handle the beast. and the coredev repo is mostly best suited for uploads to devel series and merges from debian. it's usefulness drops off a lot in case of stable series & security uploads because hardly any commits are cherrypickable across the ever diverging series - cause systemd codebase is so different.
<xnox> the inverse is true for git-ubuntu. i find it very hard to use for merges from debian, without access to full debian's packaging per-commit history.
<xnox> to see if that's upstream crazy, debian crazy, ubuntu crazy, or reverts of one of the above....
<xnox> etc.
<ahasenack> it sounds reasonable to have git-ubuntu parse d/control, look for the cvs fields, and add a remote for that
<ahasenack> er, vcs
<nacc> https://bugs.launchpad.net/usd-importer/+bug/1673710
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1673710 in usd-importer "Auto add "the upstream" repo as another remote" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
<nacc> i think
<nacc> there's also https://bugs.launchpad.net/usd-importer/+bug/1719709
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1719709 in usd-importer "add/use metadata in packaging that contains upstream vcs info" [Wishlist,New]
<nacc> its not like we didn't think about this at all :)
<Odd_Bloke> doko: Are we expecting Python 3.8 in eoan, or will it go in to Frolicking Fawn?
<xnox> Odd_Bloke, good question. I do want to chat with doko about his expectations for transitions this cycle.
<xnox> we have it available, but it's neither supported, nor default yet. i wonder if it's too optiministic to have it as default, with debian being frozen at the moment.
<Odd_Bloke> It's not vital for me to know, just curious as to how much we should be looking at 3.8 in our CI over this cycle.
<ginggs> vorlon: are you aware of LP: #1713615 ?  users report installing the package from Debian solves the problem, should we sync next time?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1713615 in msttcorefonts (Ubuntu) "ttf-mscorefonts-installer fails because Redirection from https to http is forbidden" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1713615
#ubuntu-devel 2019-04-25
<cpaelzer> DD is released, are we really still in FF/DIF (for EE then) as stated by the topic?
<cpaelzer> I know there usually is a lot of cleanup/copy going on to open it up fully, so I wonder if we can already upload EE fixes or not
<cpaelzer> juliank: I checked the queues and saw https://launchpadlibrarian.net/420798523/lvm2_2.03.02-2ubuntu1_source.changes
<cpaelzer> juliank: this is clearly no old upload that just now happens to build, so taking that as an example we should already be open then - is that correct?
<doko> Odd_Bloke: it already is there, but I don't expect it to be there as "supported", because the release will be only in December
<Kendos-Kenlen> Hi :)
<Kendos-Kenlen> is it here I am supposed to ask questions about deb packaging ?
<juliank> cpaelzer: yeah, lots of uploads happening already
<juliank> cpaelzer: no toolchain changes early this cycle
<cpaelzer> ok, thanks juliank
<cpaelzer> that confirms what I saw in the queue
<GunnarHj> jdstrand: Hi Jamie! I updated the im-config package and wonder if the patch https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/f8TxJTTY22/ is still useful. Actually, since Ubuntu 17.10 we have let GDM launch IBus, which in other words has been launched without the --address option. (Doing so was a hack to deal with an urgent IM issue before the 17.10 release.) With the latest im-config upload to eoan the patch again adds that --address option.
<rbasak> ahasenack, cpaelzer, or maybe nacc or cjwatson: I need a peer review for https://code.launchpad.net/~racb/usd-importer/+git/usd-importer/+merge/366504 please, which should hopefully fix the importer.
<cjwatson> LGTM
<rbasak> Thanks :)
<Wafficus> Hi there, I help out the Lubuntu team and I am wondering, who could I ask for help in terms of utilizing the Ubujtu Server ISO tester for use with Lubuntu isos?
<Wafficus> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server-iso-testing-dev/ubuntu-server-iso-testing/trunk
<rbasak> Wafficus: paride might be able to help you, but he's out today
* Laney changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: Open | 19.04 Released! | Devel of Ubuntu (not support) | Build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of Trusty-Disco | If you can't send messages here, authenticate to NickServ first | Patch Pilots:
<Wafficus> rbasak: gotcha at least i know who i can ask this week. thanks!
<rbasak> Oh lovely, another bug.
<rbasak> In [8]: [s.name for s in lp.distributions['debian'].series if s.active]
<rbasak> Out[8]: [u'sid', u'stretch', u'jessie', u'wheezy']
<rbasak> cjwatson: LP lists 'wheezy' as "active", so the importer is assuming it's available in the Debian apt archive, but wheezy is now gone from there.
<rbasak> cjwatson: is the assumption valid, or do we need to now flag wheezy in Launchpad as inactive?
<cjwatson> I need to consult on our process for that
<cjwatson> Can you send me an email or open a ticket or something?
<rbasak> Sure. Where should I open a ticket? Launchpad answers?
<cpaelzer> rbasak: for the time being you might stip it from the returned list to get along right?
<cjwatson> rbasak: Yeah
<cjwatson> answers.launchpad.net/launchpad
<rbasak> OK will do. I guess I can strip it from the returned list, though the "production" (experimental) importer runs from the snap, so hacking the code is a little painful.
<rbasak> (I'll probably add a workaround to the code and deploy that for now)
<cjwatson> We can probably just change the status since there are no publication records to change, but I don't want to accidentally break something that's complicated to unwind
<rbasak> Sure. I appreciate this needs care.
<rbasak> I'll add a workaround for now.
<rbasak> cjwatson: https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad/+question/680444
<cjwatson> ta
<Odd_Bloke> doko: Thanks!
<xnox> slashd, hey, so you are changing ceph from using openssl 1.0 to 1.1.1 in an SRU? i thought we agreed to fix build-dependencies and use openssl 1.0 in bionic, as it did before.
<xnox> slashd, or does that not work for some reason?
<rbasak> cpaelzer or ahasenack: may I have a quick review of https://code.launchpad.net/~racb/usd-importer/+git/usd-importer/+merge/366519 please? It's quite small. Hopefully this will be the final importer fix needed.
<rbasak> (I'm triggering a CI run now)
<cpaelzer> rbasak:  I'm taking a look
<cpaelzer> oh I remember that fromt he discussion this morning
<ahasenack> "Some seriess are listed a...." typo
<cpaelzer> snake series
<cpaelzer> ssss
<rbasak> It's the plural of series
<ahasenack> really?
<rbasak> Not really English, but I'm not sure how to represent that better. It's a pattern I've used elsewhere in the codebase also.
<cjwatson> LP uses serieses when it has no alternative, but it's awkward
<cjwatson> and also not English
<cjwatson> new rule: all terminology must have distinct singular/plural forms
<ahasenack> rbasak: shouldn't that check be in self.active_series?
<TJ-> shouldn't it be "series's" ?
<cjwatson> Hell no
<cjwatson> Plural is not possessive :)
<TJ-> sorry, typo! "series' "
<cjwatson> Even worse
<cjwatson> The actual plural is just "series", but randomly adding a possessive doesn't make it any clearer (and is no use as an identifier anyway) ...
<Odd_Bloke> It should be "series", but that doesn't really help. :p
<TJ-> oh, so it should be "an array of series" then :)
<TJ-> so "series[]"
<rbasak> How about: serie's
<Odd_Bloke> s/series/animal/g
<rbasak> anima'l? :-P
<rbasak> Also, Debian. wheezy, etc.
<cpaelzer> char's then
<slashd> xnox, actually it's the opposite, I'm switching from 1.1 to 1.0
<xnox> slashd, ack, that's what i thought we agreed. let me reread the diff, the merge proposal looks odd, with many commits.
<slashd> xnox, https://git.launchpad.net/~slashd/ubuntu/+source/ceph/commit/?id=8023c8cd12ac82c0f2ea76e0cd0ec796abd35307
<xnox> slashd, this looks right!
<slashd> jamespage fyi ^
<xnox> slashd, does it build & work?
<slashd> xnox, yes and tested with impacted users
<xnox> slashd, but the changelog entry is bad.
<slashd> xnox, I'm open to re-phrase it
<rbasak> ahasenack: updated https://code.launchpad.net/~racb/usd-importer/+git/usd-importer/+merge/366519 (force push
<rbasak> )
<xnox> slashd, it should say "use openssl 1.0 at build and runtime, as it's incompatible with 1.1 abi"
<xnox> slashd, cause you clearly did not fix incompatibility =)
<slashd> xnox, yeah make more sense you are right
<slashd> xnox, jamespage, so I'll SRU it if you guys are +1 on this (with the d/changelog modification)
<slashd> xnox: https://git.launchpad.net/~slashd/ubuntu/+source/ceph/commit/?id=1abb386339c34bb793f1d7caa168930217724c71
<ahasenack> rbasak: back
<ahasenack> rbasak: is this change worth a test?
<ahasenack> are there other tests around this area in the code? I haven't checked
<rbasak> There aren't tests in this area of code currently.
<ahasenack> k
<rbasak> Hopefully the workaround will be gone very soon also.
 * rbasak EODs
<ahasenack> rbasak: +1
<rbasak> Thanks!
<ahasenack> hi, I was searching for the proper procedure to request that a package be removed from ubuntu, but couldn't find it. I filed a bug, but is there some team I should subscribe to it, like the release team perhaps?
<ahasenack> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gadmin-samba/+bug/1826458
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1826458 in gadmin-samba (Ubuntu) "Remove gadmin-samba from the archive" [Undecided,New]
<gQuigs> ahasenack: I think it could be added to this page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration .. unfortunately viewing subscribed bugs (linked from that page) for examples fails for me..  I end up just looking at one of my old removal bugs as an example like https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sugar-record-activity/+bug/1558718
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1558718 in sugar-record-activity (Ubuntu) "Remove sugar-record-activity from archive or move to gst1.0" [Undecided,Fix released]
<gQuigs> but archive admins get cleared after the removal... I guess
<ahasenack> gQuigs: did you subscribe a team? I'm looking at your template bug
<gQuigs> ahasenack: yup,. ubuntu-archive, but don't your bug won't qualify
<gQuigs> 1 sec
<ahasenack> it's the reverse-depends?
<gQuigs> yup
<ahasenack> it looks like the whole suite is obsolete
<ahasenack> gadmintools
<ahasenack> gadmintools is a metapackage
<ahasenack> but thanks
<ahasenack> I have to run
<gQuigs> ahasenack: so it comes from Debian, you likely want to request removal from their first..
<vorlon> ginggs: no we should not sync ttf-mscorefonts-installer
<vorlon> ginggs: that bug wasn't on my radar but I'll have a look at it tomorrow, thanks (I'm out sick today)
<sarnold> :(
#ubuntu-devel 2019-04-26
<ginggs> vorlon: thanks, hope you feel better soon
<rbasak> git-ubuntu is working again and is about halfway through the backlog of ~4000 imports \o/
<rbasak> (since last night)
<Laney> \o/
<rbasak> roaksoax: I don't understand this MAAS SRU. Why is a beta being pushed into a stable release?
<rbasak> Is there some context I'm missing here?
<goddard> why isn't Qt/Qt Create in ubuntu-make(umake) ?
<teward> is it possible to dput via SFTP to uploads.ubuntu.com, out of curiosity?
<Unit193> tsimonq2: Though I doubt if you care, ssh-import-id has the same 'dist' issue pastebinit did. :>
<sarnold> hah, I bet he will care, iirc his boss uses it :)
<tsimonq2> ^
<sarnold> hey tsimonq2 :D
<Unit193> People actually use it? :3  I just use it as a place to find out where GitHub's API is. :P
<tsimonq2> Hey sarnold :D
<tsimonq2> Unit193: Yesss
<tsimonq2> We use it in prod.
<Unit193> (Also for some reason I added 'Salsa' support.)
<tsimonq2> Unit193: Is there a bug report for this?
<Unit193> Not a clue.
 * tsimonq2 is sitting next to valorie in a hotel room lobby :)
<sarnold> hey valorie :)
<Unit193> I find it easier to hide from people if you don't sit next to them.
<tsimonq2> LOL
<Unit193> http://paste.openstack.org/show/6x4yaKxdWwmB6DfV35SU proof of concept.
#ubuntu-devel 2019-04-27
<LocutusOfBorg> hello mwhudson, I syncd vulture... the delta seems useless now, can you please also look at your other merges? zope.testing, golang-* :) thanks!
<LocutusOfBorg> mwhudson, I also syncd python-tornado, the testsuite seems fixed in debian, the timeout has been increased via patch
<ginggs> juliank: hi, if you have a chance, would you have a look at LP: #1713615 ?  the ubuntu version of ttf-mscorefonts-installer uses package-data-downloader which uses apt-helper. do you think this is a bug in apt?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1713615 in msttcorefonts (Ubuntu) "ttf-mscorefonts-installer fails because Redirection from https to http is forbidden" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1713615
<juliank> ginggs: apt does not follow https->http redirects by design
<juliank> but that was not the issue last times
<juliank> here too
<juliank> It redirects to a failed mirror page, so it would not work anyway
 * juliank tried three times, works just fine
<tomreyn> in case it helps, this is my understanding from past years of using SF.net:  sf mirrors would redirect to http://downloads.sourceforge.net/mirrorproblem?... only if the requested file should have been present at the requested mirror location but was not (due to mirroring issues) or had an incorrect checksum. also, this event triggers / schedules a redistribution from the master mirror to the download mirror. it's not possible to reproduce
<tomreyn> it with a non-existant file location. also SF.net no longer seems to disclose which mirrors do not have a file (they did in the past), only the number of mirror servers which have it (and that only to project admins). so reproducing this will be difficult (the only way i can think of is to create a new file on some project and request this file from download mirrors before it has been distributed).
<tomreyn> the redirection ot a plain http:// url seems like a bug to me, though (unless it is to rule out client TLS side issues), /mirrorproblem is also available via HTTPS and should probably be used as the redirection target instead.
#ubuntu-devel 2019-04-28
<cjwatson> teward: upload.ubuntu.com supports SFTP, yes; same software as ppa.launchpad.net
<mwhudson> LocutusOfBorg: oh yeah
<mwhudson> LocutusOfBorg: i don't suppose you want to figure out why python-tornado ftbfs in bionic :-)
<mwhudson> (because i sure as heck don't understand it)
#ubuntu-devel 2020-04-20
<handsome_feng> Hi, could someone have a look at LP: #1873543?
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1873543 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "The version 159 revert the translations of ubuntukylin" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1873543
<handsome_feng> Good morning, seb128, Could you have a look at LP: #1873543? I saw your name in the changelog, :)
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1873543 in ubiquity-slideshow-ubuntu (Ubuntu) "The version 159 revert the translations of ubuntukylin" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1873543
<seb128> handsome_feng, hey, what locale is that about?
<seb128> zh_CN?
<handsome_feng> seb128: Yes
<seb128> handsome_feng, those strings are not listed in launchpad for translations, unsure how you got those translated before? I commented on the bug
<handsome_feng> seb128: I translated those strings locally and then submitted the PR request... Now I think I should submit the translations to the launchpad...
<seb128> handsome_feng, yes you should
<handsome_feng> Is there a temporary solutionï¼Or should I submit those translations to launchpad right now?
<seb128> local changes get overriden when a proper export happens
<seb128> handsome_feng, I've uploaded an updated template to launchpad, those strings should be translatable soon in the web interface
<handsome_feng> seb128: Fine, I will do that ASAP, thanks!
<LocutusOfBorg> wgrant, I'm pretty sure llvm-10 gets stuck
<LocutusOfBorg> look:
<LocutusOfBorg> https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/4023/+build/19167215
<LocutusOfBorg> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/llvm-toolchain-10/1:10.0.0-3/+build/19151969
<LocutusOfBorg> they differ of one day in start building and they are stuck on the same page?
<wgrant> LocutusOfBorg: Pretty sure they'
<wgrant> re not stuck
<wgrant> The test suite is just very quiet
<wgrant> https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/4029/+build/19180814 is building with the test suite disabled, in case they don't eventually finish
<wgrant> But I've had it run the test suite fine before
<LocutusOfBorg> ack
<LocutusOfBorg> nice to know, in any case the 4build1 on ci is one day ahead of the one in archive...
<handsome_feng> seb128: Done, :)
<seb128> handsome_feng, looks like you only did suggestions there, you are not part of the translators? you need to find an official member of the chinese translation team to approve those
<handsome_feng> seb128:  Ok, I will try to find one now
<handsome_feng> seb128: Done again! :)
<wgrant> fo0bar: The riscv64 sshd hang is a bug in qemu 4.2. 4.1 or master are fine; https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qemu/+bug/1872945 has details.
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1872945 in qemu (Ubuntu) "risc-v doubles getting clobbered somehow" [High,New]
<cjwatson> Oh good, I'm glad that wasn't somehow openssh's fault
<wgrant> The sshd test case was by far the quickest and made the bisect much more viable.
<ahasenack> cjwatson: hi, looks like you TIL libfido2 in debian, could you check, or ask nicoo to take a look at https://salsa.debian.org/auth-team/libfido2/-/merge_requests/4 please?
<cjwatson> ahasenack: I've left you some comments
<ahasenack> ok
<cjwatson> (and have fixed my notification settings for that repository, so I should receive further stuff by email)
<cpaelzer> zyga: you asked on 1873004 to  "check with "snap changes" if there was a corresponding refresh"
<cpaelzer> zyga: but that only tells me if ther currently is one
<cpaelzer> how can I make it look back in time?
<cpaelzer> --help output wasn't very helpful ont his particular question :-/
<zyga> cpaelzer: hey
<zyga> cpaelzer: it can, with snap changes you see the history as well
<zyga> cpaelzer: but not that much sadly, as we recycle and remove entries rather quickly
<cpaelzer> zyga: I have added on the bug what I could find otherwise now
<cpaelzer> thanks for the answer
<zyga> cpaelzer: thanks
<TJ-> I think there's a critical regression in the X-related libraries affecting (at least) amdgpu. With multiple monitors positioned left or right (not above or below) the displays have a blocked staircase effect. I suspected libxcomposite but downgraded that without effect. Currently suspecting libxcb. (both have had recent new upstream releases). Related bug report:
<TJ-> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/driver/xf86-video-amdgpu/-/issues/10
<fo0bar> wgrant: cjwatson: cool thanks.  fwiw, this weekend I noticed strace became available and briefly tested...  and sshd worked fine (albeit slowly) under strace.  I yelled about a watched pot and planned to follow up today
<wgrant> fo0bar: Having strace (albeit only in -updates) is indeed handy. Interesting that it fixed sshd. I wonder if it caused mstatus to be dirtied more often.
<TJ-> tjaalton: is this ^^^ something you would have a clue about? The common thread seems to be the recently upgraded (since early April) libx* packages
<TJ-> tjaalton: Bug #1873895
<ubottu> bug 1873895 in libxcb (Ubuntu) "Regression: block staircase display with side-by-side monitors" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1873895
<tjaalton> hardly likely
<Beret> I'm seeing DNS issues with a machine after updating focal last night - other machines work fine so it's something specific with this focal machine. Is anyone seeing anything similar?
<Beret> resolver issues?
<teward> !dmb-ping
<ubottu> ddstreet, rafaeldtinoco, rbasak, sil2100, slashd, teward, tsimonq2: DMB ping
<Trevinho> doko: hey, have you tested if mutter in focal finally fixed your issue? as I wrote and uploaded the fix in https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mutter/3.36.1-3ubuntu2 :)
<doko> Trevinho: cool, I'll test tomorrow
<LocutusOfBorg> wgrant, https://launchpad.net/~ci-train-ppa-service/+archive/ubuntu/4023/+build/19167215
<LocutusOfBorg> build killed after 1500 minutes of inactivity.
<LocutusOfBorg> seriously? 1 day and one hour and then boom?
<LocutusOfBorg> so it seems to be not a slow build, but a stuck one to me
<LocutusOfBorg> (unless we need more ram/swap and so on)
#ubuntu-devel 2020-04-21
<wgrant> fo0bar: qemu in focal-proposed should be fixed.
<blahdeblah> wgrant: It was broken?
<wgrant> blahdeblah: Only for RISC-V, fortunately.
<blahdeblah> Ah, cool
<AlecTaylor> hi
<AlecTaylor> I'm getting a 500 server error on https://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=expat - are you?
<sarnold> AlecTaylor: it loaded for me just now; how about you?
<AlecTaylor> Hmm yeah looks like it's working again
<blahdeblah> AlecTaylor: The backend on that thing used to get clogged up a lot (unless they've done a major overhaul in the last year).  If problems persist, report in #canonical-sysadmin or rt@ubuntu.com and someone can kick it.
<fo0bar> wgrant: ta, replied to https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qemu/+bug/1872945
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1872945 in qemu (Ubuntu) "risc-v doubles getting clobbered somehow" [High,Triaged]
<wgrant> fo0bar: Thanks!
<e-i-k-e> can somone confirm, that when enabling full disk encryption on an SSD in the initial setup, the installer sets the "discard" option in /etc/crypttab?
<e-i-k-e> I guess that's a bad idea.
<LocutusOfBorg> wgrant, planning to land silo?
<LocutusOfBorg> riscv64 is mostly finished
<wgrant> LocutusOfBorg: Yep, with release manager permission!
<LocutusOfBorg> :)
<cjwatson> rbasak: I can't remember if I've asked this before, but there are a few bits on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewReleaseCycleProcess that refer to the old Bazaar importer (search for "placeholder for future replacement").  Is there anything in the git importer that should replace those checklist steps?
 * rbasak looks
<rbasak> cjwatson: I don't think we need any equivalents of those.
<cjwatson> rbasak: Cool, I'll just delete those then
<rbasak> +1
<cjwatson> sil2100: ^- I deleted those items both from the NRCP wiki page and from the Google doc checklist
<cjwatson> (latter are currently suggestions)
<rbasak> AFAICT, imports should just magically continue to work after a new series is opened. The only thing that might be affected is the "ubuntu/devel" and similar branch pointers, but the way things are arranged at the moment, the series list is loaded from the Launchpad on every individual package import run, so that should just update.
<cjwatson> I think as well as the series update branch-distro was particularly fragile in the face of intermediate states while the new series was being created.  But no real reason you'd have replicated that from the other side of the webservice API boundary.
<sil2100> cjwatson: thanks!
<sil2100> It's good to have someone take a look at it earlier, rather than us scratching our heads when the time comes
<cjwatson> I think I've been meaning to for several cycles now
#ubuntu-devel 2020-04-22
<CarlFK> ppisati: have some quick advice on how to upgrade from your https://people.canonical.com/~ppisati/lp1871182/  -25 to -26?
<xnox> CarlFK:  you probably want to $ sudo apt install linux-generic
<xnox> together with:
<xnox> shim-signed / grub2-signed if you had those removed
<xnox> make sure that all linux-image-unisged-* are removed
<xnox> to get back secureboot
<CarlFK> xnox: thanks, that'
<CarlFK> doing it.
<rbalint> xnox, i think i just saw an autopkgtest failing because upgradind systemd-timesyncd rolled back the clock : https://objectstorage.prodstack4-5.canonical.com/v1/AUTH_77e2ada1e7a84929a74ba3b87153c0ac/autopkgtest-focal/focal/amd64/libs/libsfml/20200422_115723_f2338@/log.gz
<rbalint> xnox, maybe chrony would be a better default time-daemon, what do you think?
<ddstreet> rbalint i assume you are aware, but just fyi lp #1860926
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1860926 in systemd (Ubuntu Focal) "Ubuntu 20.04 Systemd fails to configure bridged network" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1860926
<rbalint> ddstreet, yes :-\
<xnox> rbalint:  i don't know if time-daemon is crittical. Systems without public network or without hw-clock will not work right. systemd on boot sets the time to at least when systemd was released (i.e. all systems booted with focal will at least say they are in 2020)
<xnox> rbalint:  i understand that we used to ship timesyncd in minimal, and that minimal did have ntp in bionic. But i don't think we did that in xenial or maybe like not in trusty.
<xnox> ooooh
<xnox> maybe we did
<xnox> one sec, need to look at the old seeds
<tumbleweed>  /35
<xnox> rbalint:  so i think we always shipped ntp client, we dropped "ntpdate" when we added timesyncd
<xnox> rbalint:  talking with steve, i think there is history why we did this minimal task configure, and it should probably be switched to "ubuntu-minimal" package install
<rbalint>  xnox i'd like that, this makes sense
<xnox> rbalint:  because we think it was a bad workaround, around the fact that servers did not have "ubuntu-server" installed, and apt didn't have immediate configure and was failing to immediately configure things, and we were failing to like upgrade to upstart or to systemd, etc.
<xnox> with like multi-arch predepends failing
<rbalint> xnox, should we switch to ubuntu-minimal install right now instead of landing the systemd-timesyncd workaround?
<xnox> rbalint:  also i think desktop upgrades are not affected, only server. cause i think it only takes that code path for server and not desktop
<xnox> rbalint:  i kind of want to 1) check if desktop upgrades are affected 2) propose the right thing as marking ubuntu-minimal for install first 3) not block upgrades on this
<rbalint> xnox, ack
#ubuntu-devel 2020-04-23
<caribou> Good morning, is there a public channel where I can ask develpment/diagnostic questions about snapd ?
<wgrant> caribou: #snappy is probably most relevant.
<caribou> thanks wgrant
* Laney changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: Frozen for release | 19.10 Released! 20.04 Beta Released! | Devel of Ubuntu (not support) | Build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of Trusty-Eoan | If you can't send messages here, authenticate to NickServ first | Patch Pilots:
<tjaalton> rbalint: hi, are there known issues with hostnamectl & docker?
<tjaalton> rbalint: looks like it regressed recently, I'm not able to run hostnamectl anymore, it says 'device or resource busy'
<rbalint> tjaalton, not that i know of, do you have a pointer?
<tjaalton> rbalint: no bugreport yet
<tjaalton> trying to reproduce by hand
<seb128> mdeslaur, hey, bug #1874413 state there might be a regression with the recent openssl update
<ubottu> bug 1874413 in openssl (Ubuntu) "openssl 1.1.1f-1ubuntu2 breaks some TLS connections" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1874413
<mdeslaur> seb128: thanks, I'll take a look
<Bluefoxicy> really need to cobble together debsums and stuff to identify broken packages for something like a dism /online /cleanup-image /restorehealth or whatever where windows just fixes all its broken system files by redownloading them
<Bluefoxicy> somehow one server destroyed a lot of stuff in /bin but the packages are still installed.  even gzip was gone
<ogra> the checksumming is running by default on every start of the iso nowadays
<Bluefoxicy> This is an old install
<ogra> (you have to skip it with ctrl -C)
<Bluefoxicy> apt somehow borked up during install and deleted a bunch of stuff
<Bluefoxicy> so I'm repairing it
<smoser> someone here surely knows (apologies if this is the wrong channel).
<smoser> $ git branch | grep "^[^ ]"
<smoser> * dev/create-delete-cycles
<smoser> + fix/sizes-in-sectors
<smoser> any idea what the '+' means ? that is new to me with git in focal.  it shows up as blue also. and only 1 of the 46 branches has it.
<smoser> google and man are failing  me.
<cjwatson> smoser: purely empirically I think it means "checked out in another worktree"
<cjwatson> Oh yes
<cjwatson> First para of DESCRIPTION in "git branch"
<cjwatson> "Any branches checked out in linked worktrees will be highlighted in cyan and marked with a plus sign."
<smoser> gah! thank you cjwatson.
<cjwatson> (Fortunately I use worktrees a fair bit otherwise I might also have been mystified ...)
<bdmurray> marcustomlinson: I'll sponsor / merge the fix for bug 1874469 unless you already have somebody lined up
<ubottu> bug 1874469 in update-manager (Ubuntu Focal) "[SRU] update-manger intermittently hangs during snap updates" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1874469
<marcustomlinson> bdmurray: that'd be great thanks!
<bdmurray> marcustomlinson: to make sure I understand the scope of impact - what users does this affect exactly? New installs of 20.04 or people who have been running devel for a while?
<marcustomlinson> bdmurray: the latter
<bdmurray> Okay, then we'll do it as a normal SRU
<marcustomlinson> bdmurray: thanks!
* sil2100 changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: Closed | 20.04 Released! | Devel of Ubuntu (not support) | Build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of Trusty-Eoan | If you can't send messages here, authenticate to NickServ first | Patch Pilots:
* sil2100 changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: Closed | 20.04 Released! | Devel of Ubuntu (not support) | Build failures: http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/ftbfs/ | #ubuntu for support and discussion of Trusty-Focal | If you can't send messages here, authenticate to NickServ first | Patch Pilots:
<Laney> ð
<sil2100> Thanks for noticing!
<bdmurray> marcustomlinson: Do you have a .crash file / OOPSID for bug 1874491?
<ubottu> bug 1874491 in gnome-shell (Ubuntu) "Shell crashed during upgrade from Eoan to Focal" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1874491
<marcustomlinson> bdmurray: no
<marcustomlinson> I had to gdb
<bdmurray> there was nothing in /var/crash?
<marcustomlinson> nope
<bdmurray> hrm
<marcustomlinson> bdmurray: looks like a dup of https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/accountsservice/+bug/1843982
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1843982 in accountsservice (Ubuntu Focal) "Various programs crashed with SIGSEGV in g_str_hash() from g_hash_table_lookup() from update_user()" [High,Triaged]
<marcustomlinson> what you think?
<marcustomlinson> yeah I think it is
<mwhudson> philroche, tianon: we should update the :rolling and :latest tags for the docker ubuntu image too
<philroche> mwhudson: I thought the same but figured I'd wait until we have  a G-animal
<mwhudson> ok
<mwhudson> seems rolling is updated anyway
<philroche> mwhudson: When I try pull the latest focal docker image I get https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/j8Fc72xM6X/ error.
<philroche> Is upload to dockerhub lagging or is there a different reason?
<mwhudson> no idea
<tianon> philroche, mwhudson: see the note at https://github.com/docker-library/official-images/pull/7865#issuecomment-618463338 ;)
<mwhudson> tianon: oh hai, and thanks
<mwhudson> tianon: would redoing it to update at least ubuntu:rolling add to your queue excessively?
<philroche> tianon: Thanks. I saw the focal-20200423 show up and was worried when pull didn't work. Thanks
<tianon> mwhudson: nope not at this point (since they haven't all triggered yet and we're still early) :+1:
<tianon> mwhudson, philroche: pushed a commit to update "latest" as well as "rolling" in the brew repo, should just need to regenerate library/ubuntu as a PR :)
<philroche> mwhudson: Would you be able? I'm EOD
<mwhudson> philroche: sure
<philroche> Danke
<mwhudson> tianon: do you agree with updating latest too? istr for bionic we did both on release day
<tianon> yeah, might as well :)
<tianon> latest = rolling = devel for this round seems fine/sane (reflects the reality upstream for the time being)
<mwhudson> tianon: https://github.com/tianon/docker-brew-ubuntu-core/pull/179
<philroche> ð
<mwhudson> tianon: https://github.com/docker-library/official-images/pull/7873
<tsimonq2> xnox, doko: What's your favorite way to get a package list to do an entire archive rebuild? Asking for a friend.
<xnox> All or subset?
<xnox> tsimonq2: when we do archive rebuilds we ask launchpad team to do it... There is rebuildd thing in Debian. And often just by creating transition trackers, trolling germinate seeds, etc.
<xnox> Cause often one does not want to rebuild kernel, fonts, texlive, etc.
<tsimonq2> xnox: There's a project that needs to rebuild the entire archive to comply with Canonical's legal issues surrounding shipping it on devices.
<tsimonq2> xnox: Now, they could probably get away with a subset...
<xnox> Tsi
<tsimonq2> xnox: However, it's less than ideal and I wish Canonical Legal would just give them a trademark license.
<xnox> tsimonq2: you should talk to them again & like sales. Maybe try community channels too. I think popey helped with some trademark agreements. And as rebuild will usually not help, as that will not strip branding.
<xnox> tsimonq2: cause often things are modified in a way that breaks integration and then there are legitimate reasons to ensure it is not called Ubuntu. But also sometimes all of us get negotiations wrong.
<tsimonq2> xnox: Fair enough, but I think in this case it should be allowed... I'll talk to popey (who has also been pinged in here). :)
#ubuntu-devel 2020-04-24
<jamespage> Laney: morning
<jamespage> could I ask a small favour - there is a new version of vaultlocker in the bionic-backports queue - any chance you could ack it?
<doko> Trevinho: looks like the resolution change on suspend is fixed. checked in focal for now. will that land in bionic as well?
<Trevinho> doko: good... The patch I did should apply to 3.28 too I think. So... I can do that, but only if you make the bug SRU-conformant and you'll verirify it :-D
<doko> sure, I can do that
<Trevinho> ta
<rbasak> bryce: on your request to document my repo_factory in rich_history_test.py, how about I add notes to STYLE.md instead? As it's a generic thing related to our test fixtures and how we do testing.
<rbasak> (not strictly style, but that's the closest we have to a developer guide right now)
<bryce> rbasak, alright
<Laney> jamespage: sorry I read your message and then totally forgot about it /o\ /o\ /o\
<Laney> looking now
<Laney> done
<tmhoang> Hi, anyone following this guide https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kernel/BuildYourOwnKernel and using quilt to add a patch and rebuild the kernel ?
<tmhoang> I'm on 20.04, getting kernel 5.4.0-26 and debian/source/format is 1.0 and using quilt. When the kernel is building, I see that the source file I wanted to change is not changed -> the patch seems not applied
<hggdh> a question: the #ubuntu-uds-* and #ubuntu-uos-* IRC channels -- do we need to keep them? We are going thru a spring clean-up for the #ubuntu* namespace, and these channels seem to be quite dead
<mapreri> bryce: hello there.  I see you wrote stuff in the upstream cairo ML, so I'll ask you.  I got somebody asking if I could build inkscape with cairo 1.17 to support 16-bit colour depth, but obviously the cairo maintainers won't package a development version.  So, do you know anything about the next cairo stable release?  (without knowing anything) Are backports of such a feature even possible?
<bryce> mapreri, I don't expect a stable release for cairo any time soon.  I don't think the codebase is changing that much, so backporting the patches shouldn't be too terribly difficult if you want to go that route
<mapreri> bryce: thanks, I guess I could have a look if I'll ever feel too bored
<bryce> mapreri, :-D
<mapreri> I just feel somewhat bad for the inkscape users who would like to use that feature but they can't
<bryce> mapreri, refund their money?  ;-)
<mapreri> ahahah :P
<bryce> mapreri, it's on my todo list to look at a cairo release but it's pretty far down my stack.  Some day.
<mapreri> bryce: the person opened a bug against inkscape saying "please update cairo".  I reassigned to cairo and the cairo maintainer wrote "not until there is a stable release".  then the OP wrote privately to me saying "I opened against inkscape because I knew the cairo maintainer would give me such bureaucratic answer"
<mapreri> very tempted to reply "yes, please got to office XYZ to file your appeal" :>
<bryce> heh
<valorie> entitled users; who would have thought
<sladen> mapreri: ...locked filing cabinet, in a disused lavatory, with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard"
<mapreri> sladen: the blank form required for your appeal might be used as nest by a some poisonous snakes living inside said cabinet.
<mapreri> (being Italian I learnt to appreciate this kind of bureaucracy: https://youtu.be/tzQuuoKXVq0?t=176 - could also link that in my reply)
<GridCube> jdstrand, can I pm you about your minidlna snap package? i need to figure out how to add directories to the config file and snap doesn't allow editing config files as they're read-only
#ubuntu-devel 2020-04-25
<tomreyn> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases needs an update (moving 20.04 to the top, adding 20.10 to 'future')
#ubuntu-devel 2020-04-26
<alkisg> Hi, the socat 1.7.3.3-2  in focal has a regression that breaks another package called "epoptes". I asked debian to package the new 1.7.3.4 bug fixing version in sid, and they just did: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=958452
<ubottu> Debian bug 958452 in src:socat "Please package 1.7.3.4 as 1.7.3.3 breaks epoptes" [Normal,Fixed]
<alkisg> How can I ask for focal to get that new version? It's hard to pinpoint the exact part that causes the regression, but it's a bug fixing "microupdate", can I just ask for an SRU even if ubuntu+1 hasn't started yet?
 * alkisg tries to be more clear: asking for focal to get a new socat version, instead of pinpointing a patch
<alkisg> Given that it's not in any .iso, could someone just syncpackage it, even now after release?
 * alkisg reported that as https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/socat/+bug/1875129
<ubottu> Launchpad bug 1875129 in socat (Ubuntu) "Socat 1.7.3.3 in focal has regression, please sync with sid" [Undecided,New]
<RAOF> alkisg: SRUs are perfectly fine pre-Gorgeous opening.
<RAOF> You can't quite just syncpackage (you need the actual SRU tracking bug in the changelog, among other things), but there's no reason not to start the SRU process right now.
<RAOF> (There are already a bunch of Focal SRUs, from the time between release freeze and release)
<alkisg> RAOF: but doesn't SRU mean that "it's already fixed in the current development release"? Gorgeous doesn't have the new socat yet
<alkisg> It's only there in sid
<alkisg> Should I wait for it to sync first, then start the SRU?
<RAOF> Nah, you can start the SRU.
<alkisg> OK, ty
<RAOF> At this time of the release cycle we can copy the package out of focal-proposed into gorgeous when we release the SRU.
<alkisg> RAOF: to be clear, this is an SRU for a "microrelease", not for a "patch backport", as I haven't pinpointed the exact lines, is that OK?
<RAOF> If it hasn't autosynced by then.
<RAOF> alkisg: If it's *really* a bug-fix-only release, SRUs are fine.
<alkisg> I think so. Ty, inserting the [SRU] stanzas in the bug report...
<RAOF> You don't necessarily need to pick just the patches that fix the bugs you've particularly hit.
<alkisg> Done, I think :)
<cjwatson> tomreyn: done
<tomreyn> thanks for the notice.
<jbicha> mapreri: btw, Debian did package cairo 1.15 once important enough stuff started depending on it
<jbicha> I don't trust my memory, but I think that important stuff was color emoji ï¸â¼ï¸
<Unit193> Ah, so entirely useless stuff.  I see.
<valorie> Unit193: the 20th century Man
<Unit193> Yes, teenagers seem unable to articulate well enough to express themselves in understanable ways. :P
<valorie> Unit193: I use the occasional :-) or <3
<valorie> and there is a cup of coffee emoji I like, but for that one does not need color
<Unit193> valorie: Indeed, though as my mother used to say "A little bit goes a long way."  Also I believe the word for those is 'emoticon'.
<valorie> right
<valorie> I have my fonts rather small in irc so when people use emoji, they are usually too small for me to "get" them anyway
